# UT Permit Numbers



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Get ready for some dramatic reductions in General Season deer permits along with reductions in antlerless tags and a large reduction in bison permits.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/agendas-materials-minutes.html


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## TmTmTl (Apr 27, 2019)

No love for the Nebo unit again this year for deer! I've seen a slow decline in buck to doe ratio's and overall deer numbers the past few year's, but I guess that's just me cause the DWR sure knows where to find them. Then they add on 20 late muzzleloader buck tags, what a bunch of morons!


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

My random observations:

- No doe pronghorn tags on Parker Mountain
- Ewe bighorn hunt on Newfoundland Mountains. This will be my first opportunity to be a max point holder! (Would still prefer random draw, though.) I'll happily leave my 4 cow moose points on the table to go after that tag instead.
- 5 permits for each HAMS deer hunt
- There will be a nonresident bonus permit for Desert Bighorn Sheep on the San Rafael, South unit (for the first time ever?) and a nonresident bonus permit for Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep on the Newfoundland Mountain unit (also for the first time ever?).
- Check out page 61 for a discussion on a proposed over-the-counter bison hunting opportunity. If you buy a permit, you would lose all your points and never be eligible to apply for bison again. You could buy a permit in future years, if available.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

second year in a row for decreased opportunities. wonder how the trophy potential is doing.:roll:


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

9000 fewer general season deer permits.. Thats pretty significant. Looks like 2 preference points may not get a permit this year for the unit I applied for!

Could be another year of tripod / spotter / phonecam!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

One thing I don't understand on the bison is that a little over a year ago they were issuing a crap ton of "emergency" tags on the bison Henry Mountains herd because the population was too high, and now they have cut the tags back in an extreme matter a year later. Did all the remaining animals die of starvation this year? Or was that emergency hunt a major, major mistake? 

Some areas have some drastically reduced population estimates. Again, did they really have that much die off over a year's period? Or where they just woefully wrong a year ago? 

These are the answers I am not confident I'll ever know one way or the other. I can make my own assumptions, but if there were gross errors, I doubt there will be a mea culpa as part of that.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

A couple of years ago they were worried about the water on the Henries so they issued all the extra permits and had the late hunt. 

I guess that it was more successful than they thought and decided to cut the tags to raise the herd numbers again. Who really knows until they hold a board meeting and explain it, that is if they decide to hold that board meeting.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I don't see where your information is found in the meetings they've had.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

taxidermist said:


> I don't see where your information is found in the meetings they've had.


Try this one

https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2020-04-rac-packet.pdf


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> A couple of years ago they were worried about the water on the Henries so they issued all the extra permits and had the late hunt.


It was the end of 2018 and the hunts extended into January 2019. Not a couple years ago. This was just a year ago. So my question on whether a bunch of animals died of starvation this year or the extra hunts were a mistake remains.

Maybe it's somewhere in the middle, but it just strikes me odd that there can be such a swing in one year. It is not just a minimal reduction on the Henry Mountains. These are huge cuts. Check the numbers, there is not even half the number of tags available. this is a really big deal.

But hey, they are proposing to give out OTC bison tags for a hunt that historically has produced 1-7 harvested bison, even with immense help from the DWR, to make up for it.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

BigT said:


> Try this one
> 
> https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2020-04-rac-packet.pdf


That works. Thanks!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> It was the end of 2018 and the hunts extended into January 2019. Not a couple years ago. This was just a year ago. So my question on whether a bunch of animals died of starvation this year or the extra hunts were a mistake remains.


Well, alright be a stickler for time frames.

It was almost 2 years ago, the fall of 2018 when they approved more permits and the late hunt into January


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The timeline kind of matters though. It’s not splitting hairs when trying to figure out what happened to cause such a swing in such a short time frame.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> It was the end of 2018 and the hunts extended into January 2019. Not a couple years ago. This was just a year ago. So my question on whether a bunch of animals died of starvation this year or the extra hunts were a mistake remains.


It was my understanding that the "emergency" additional tags were due to poor range conditions and that they were "officially" afraid of losing some animals to starvation. If that really occurred, then it would be reasonable that the current population is lower and fewer tags would make sense. Additionally, the range should be a little better now and can support building the numbers back up.

Now, whether starvation truly occurred and/or they simply overharvested them or something else is an entirely different discussion.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

The form of public input will be different this year. My understanding is the public input will be received electronically until 72 hours before the meeting. It has never been so easy to give your input.

Vanilla's question is valid on the bison issue. Just a question of why? Never hurts to ask questions. Guesses do tend to hurt the situations as they breed rumors.... 

I am also concerned about the lack of GS deer tag cuts on the Nebo. Along with the high number of late ML tags on the Wasatch.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Catherder said:


> Now, whether starvation truly occurred and/or they simply overharvested them or something else is an entirely different discussion.


It's not a different discussion for me. It is EXACTLY my question. I think the answer to that is important.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Packout said:


> Get ready for some dramatic reductions in General Season deer permits along with reductions in antlerless tags and a large reduction in bison permits.
> 
> https://wildlife.utah.gov/agendas-materials-minutes.html


For video presentations and feedback:

https://wildlife.utah.gov/online-rac.html

If you watch the videos closely enough, some the your questions about drastic number changes are answered! They are now considering more the survival rates of does, cows, fawns and calves. They didn't have that much information about those rates before the new Migration Initiative, because the previous classifications/counts took place right after the harvest and before the actual winter die-offs which happen in the spring. Now they know about the die-offs as they happen because those Migration Initiative GPS collars are on 24-7 and when one of them stops moving, they find it (and the carcass) and do a very thorough examination to determine the cause of death.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm surprised to see 5 bighorn sheep tags for the stansburys. It seems like they are putting less of a concern about hunters taking only class 4 rams anymore. Which isn't a bad thing.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

The Henry's bison hunts added a bunch of tags in the 2018-19 season as the drought and range conditions wouldn't support the normal objective of 325 adults. So I think they tried to drop the herd to 250-275 animals as that was how much water was available to support them. There is a private landowner in the unit that controls a massive percentage (IIRC ~90%) of the water rights in the suitable winter range habitat. I am also pretty sure that at the time they created the additional hunts they pretty clearly stated that tag numbers would drop for several years after wards so that the herd could rebuild. 

Honestly, I think the OTC bison is a pretty cool way to handle a challenging situation. If you purchase the tag you wouldn't be able to apply for bison again, but it seems like you would be able to buy the tag again in later years of not successful, right? I think that could be a pretty interesting dynamic to the draw odds. Heck, if they let people who have previously drawn a Utah bison tag but those permits and hunt I will absolutely be doing that hunt.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The OTC tag is a interesting proposition. I did read that it you do purchase one you will loose your bison points and you will be done putting in for bison. 

But how are they planning on doing it? Is it going to cost 2 times what the draw tag cost? How many tags are going to be available for OTC purchase?

I can see all kinds of trying to do this on a hunt that is draw only for the other tags 

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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> The OTC tag is a interesting proposition. I did read that it you do purchase one you will loose your bison points and you will be done putting in for bison.
> 
> But how are they planning on doing it? Is it going to cost 2 times what the draw tag cost? How many tags are going to be available for OTC purchase?
> 
> ...


It said unlimited tags, OTC and require an online course about the challenges of the hunt before you can purchase the tag.

I think it would be a great way to thin the herd of applicants that don't really get what they are doing


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Not only would it thin the herd of applicants but if unlimited tags you wouldn't have to worry about the bison herd 

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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> Not only would it thin the herd of applicants but if unlimited tags you wouldn't have to worry about the bison herd
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


There may be some truth to this, but as I understand it, the buff that utilize that area are exclusively from the Ute tribe. Harvesting these buff down won't appreciably affect the buff we typically draw for and are managed by the DWR.
(with the possible exception of the BI6507 hunt)

My question is that I thought that public access to this area is restricted. How is Joe six pack going to get to the animals if he buys one of the OTC tags?

Another question is why the tag cut for Antelope island?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Access is extremely limited for these areas. I doubt that they will allow free access through Range Creek Canyon and over in Nine Mile it is mostly private. Now the property owners in Nine Mile may allow hunters onto the property to shoot bison but that is to be seen. Range Creek used to have public access but after the U took it over they keep the gates locked on both ends. At one time even the property owner who still owned it before it got completely taken over couldn't access his property.

Even the last couple of years any hunter had to be escorted onto the property at Range Creek by DOW employees from what I have read. 

This is going to be a very interesting idea that they are pushing.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> Access is extremely limited for these areas. I doubt that they will allow free access through Range Creek Canyon and over in Nine Mile it is mostly private. Now the property owners in Nine Mile may allow hunters onto the property to shoot bison but that is to be seen. Range Creek used to have public access but after the U took it over they keep the gates locked on both ends. At one time even the property owner who still owned it before it got completely taken over couldn't access his property.
> 
> Even the last couple of years any hunter had to be escorted onto the property at Range Creek by DOW employees from what I have read.
> 
> This is going to be a very interesting idea that they are pushing.


Exactly. What I could see is the landowners telling well financed hunters to buy the OTC tag and then selling them limited access rights. (for a pretty penny, of course) That could get the job done as far as the landowners and DWR is concerned, I suppose.

If so, I would then predict that we will see a bunch of pitiful threads on here from dudes that get the tag but cannot afford or arrange the access, and are pathetically asking if "anyone knows someone" who can help their plight.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> Access is extremely limited for these areas. I doubt that they will allow free access through Range Creek Canyon and over in Nine Mile it is mostly private. Now the property owners in Nine Mile may allow hunters onto the property to shoot bison but that is to be seen. Range Creek used to have public access but after the U took it over they keep the gates locked on both ends. At one time even the property owner who still owned it before it got completely taken over couldn't access his property.
> 
> Even the last couple of years any hunter had to be escorted onto the property at Range Creek by DOW employees from what I have read.
> 
> This is going to be a very interesting idea that they are pushing.


You might want to look at the access again to that property as I think you've misunderstood some things. The UoU only allows so many people through per day and no motorized access. Two seasons ago, the DWR made a deal with them to help some of the bison tag holders by driving them in on SxS to get to the bison and back on the same day.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Read the reasoning for the OTC bison tags in the packet. They could sell 500 permits, there won’t be many shot. It’s basically so they can say they’ve literally done everything. After this doesn’t work, maybe contracted sharp shooters from helicopters are next? 

I need about 750 OTC tags purchased by bison point holders to get me back on track after what they’re doing to tags this year.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Why couldn't the DWR do on this bison hunt what MT does on their unlimited OTC tag but quota limited sheep hunts? Tags are unlimited but once the harvest quota is reached, the hunt shuts down in 24 hrs. That's how u solve the issue of unlimited tag numbers and have a bison herd for future hunts.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

They aren’t concerned about shooting too many of these bison. That simply isn’t going to be a problem. 

Now, the reservation might be concerned about that. But the DWR is not. 

Reality is very few bison will get killed on this hunt, regardless of how many tags are sold.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> They aren't concerned about shooting too many of these bison. That simply isn't going to be a problem.
> 
> Now, the reservation might be concerned about that. But the DWR is not.
> 
> Reality is very few bison will get killed on this hunt, regardless of how many tags are sold.


Agreed. I think in large part it is posturing on the DWR's behalf to get the tribe to do more to keep their animals on the reservation.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

They let 24 people into Range Creek per day if I remember correctly. The permits are given by the UofU. If they would open the gate and let people drive in access wouldn’t be a problem, but they won’t do that, so it’s tough. If you have horses, however, it could be a fun hunt.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Reality is very few bison will get killed on this hunt, regardless of how many tags are sold.


Utahns are killin SOB's, I think you would be surprised at the lengths ole joe 6-pack will go to get to killin Mr Bison!

Hell, you're going to get guys flown in with helicopters if this hunt becomes a reality. Rent a copter ride for a couple grand to kill a wild buff--I could even swing that!

I don't know this area at all but in looking at the map are these bison crossing the green river to the west from the res over to the public land? good swimmers those bison?


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Airborne said:


> Vanilla said:
> 
> 
> > Reality is very few bison will get killed on this hunt, regardless of how many tags are sold.
> ...


They swim! Or cross on ice once it freezes. They head over into Range Creek as the feed is lush and also the Sand Wash area from the Wildhorse Bench.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

If I was in the moose OIL pool (waiting the 300+ years), sitting on zero bison points and had access to horses, I’d do it.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

https://nhmu.utah.edu/range-creek/visitor-permits

It appears to me that the Range Creek property is day access only. Might be difficult if you have to walk in and out every day.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Clarq said:


> https://nhmu.utah.edu/range-creek/visitor-permits
> 
> It appears to me that the Range Creek property is day access only. Might be difficult if you have to walk in and out every day.


You can camp just outside of the top gate, but not inside. If I remember correctly, the road is 10-12 miles long and the bison can be all the way at the end. Tough to do on foot in a day and make it all the way back to camp, let alone hiking a bison out on packs. I think bicycles are prohibited as well.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

And you have to apply for a permit to enter the NHMU property. It isn't just bison hunters who would be trying to get permits. It is photographers, deer hunters, elk hunters, hikers, bird watchers, archaeologists, etc....


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Airborne, chopper rentals will absolutely be a thing. I’ve said those with the resources will benefit, but nobody else. Even when the NHMU allowed the DWR to drive people in, they didn’t kill a lot of animals. 

They’ll bounce and be back on the reservation pretty quick. They return, as the presentation says. There are weird dynamics at play here that will prevent large numbers of punched tags, not just the lack of ingenuity. 

And yes, bison swim! The single most scared I’ve ever been in my life was fly fishing the Yellowstone River in the park. We had waded across to an island we wanted to fish, in the in place you could cross as it’s too deep anywhere else. A herd of about 100 bison rolled up after we had gone over and decided they wanted to be on the island as well, and they were swimming across. I’ve never felt so helpless. A few minutes felt like 5 eternities. I thought I was toast. Luckily the current took them down stream to the bottom end of the island and after they all went through, we crossed back to the other side and bounced. Man, my heart kind of races even thinking back to that moment. A time where you understand you are not in control of nature. But watching those giant beasts swim 20-30 yards away was a thing to behold!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The problem with choppers is Utah's restriction on flying before or during a hunt.

On bison swimming, anyone who has hunted them or have been around them know that they pretty much do whatever they want to do. It takes a very sturdy fence to keep them in place, if it isn't a sturdy one they will just push it over to get to the other side of it.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Most of the area is wilderness, which will prohibit a lot of helicopter rides in and out of there. As well as other things...


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

interesting info for sure--could one float the green and hunt the west side as you floated down? Maybe rapids would make this tough? Also you would have to float it before it froze and maybe the bison are not there until after it gets very cold? 

Lot's of issues but fun to think about


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Bison are basically +1500lbs mountain goat-bulldozer-swim beasts. Bison do whatever they feckin' want. That is why they are the coolest and we should be doing way more to restore wild, free ranging bison wherever possible.

...err...where was I again? Right, because bidets.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> ...err...where was I again? Right, because bidets.


Are you saying that you want a bidet for a bison?????????

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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> Are you saying that you want a bidet for a bison?????????
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


Are you saying you don't?!


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