# Bad, bad Publicity....



## blackbear (Oct 18, 2007)

-)O(-

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=13897043


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## huntinkid (Aug 19, 2009)

^ x2. the only thing i'm wondering is was he actually aiming for the head or pulled the shot because i wouldnt think that an arrow would kill a deer if shot in the head... :?:


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

It doesn't look good but these things happen. Nobody makes the perfect shot everytime. Too bad that it had to become so public but thankfully even the humane society didn't say stupid things and everyone including the hunters hope for his survival.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Maybe he thought it was a Q-Tip? JK

That isnt going to help our cause....


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

Rather than sayin' a bunch of hateful stuff, I'm just going to say "No Comment".


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Nice buck there. to bad.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

looks like someone taking too long of a shot...it's lodged against his spine I would think since it has minimal penetration...if that same place was hit by that same arrow at 20-30 yards that buck would've hit the ground and been declared dead on the scene...JMO...


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

stablebuck said:


> looks like someone taking too long of a shot...it's lodged against his spine I would think since it has minimal penetration...if that same place was hit by that same arrow at 20-30 yards that buck would've hit the ground and been declared dead on the scene...JMO...


I thought the same thing about the lack of penetration of the arrow. I think something slowed the arrow down or like you said, to long of a shot. It is too bad, but these things do happen.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

We were kickin this around at work today when one of the girls found it this morning.... somebody said folks should have to qualify to be able to hunt with a bow. I see stuff like this and I think maybe there is something to that. Pretty bad shot.... course, you see this at 3D shoots all the time. I guess it shouldn't be unexpected to see the same thing in the field.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

you can make people to take a class on archery hunting to hunt with a bow. does not mean that they wont do it in the field


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

The hunter must have been using a very weak bow. I know with a 7mm, 175 grain bullet it would have dropped that buck in his tracks. This kind of publicity doesn't look good for archers on the WF.


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## Watcher (Dec 31, 2008)

This story bothers me a great deal. I agree, and unfortuantely have had it happen to me, that an animal is not always retrieved. However, two things jump out at me:

1) When your the hunting extended season in the foot hills above Salt Lake, you have to be hyper-vigalent about your behavior and your choices. You are not two miles back in rural Utah! You are the representative for all of us.

2) With a modern set-up (it was a carbon arrow) the kinetic energy at 40 yards or closer should have either busted bone or completely passed through. I can't tell if the arrow is loged into jaw or vertebra. But it has all the appearance ofa piss-poor choice on the part of the archer (sorry for the language).

Writing this just saddens  me more!!


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> you can make people to take a class on archery hunting to hunt with a bow. does not mean that they wont do it in the field


Not just take a class.... obviously just taking a class isn't working when you see this kind of thing winding up on the news. My kid who has never shot a bow at an animal could pass that internet joke of a test for the front. Then you still wind up with folks whipping arrows at anything that moves. You would have to prove you can be proficient with your weapon as well as passing your written test, just like you do in regular hunters safety, although shooting a .22 doesn't really mean much either. There's got to be a way to increase hunter accountability to limit some of the stupidity we've all seen on the front and during the regular season.


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## Razkul99 (Oct 29, 2009)

I saw a very similar situation when visiting another state. Just outside of Sturgis, SD, a small buck walked right across the road in front of my truck with a full arrow exposed from a shot that hit high on the neck with very minimal penetration. My initial reaction was the good ol' "that sucks" but then I realized it was extremely unlikely the arrow would remain there and the animal would be survive.

As for how it happened, I wasn't there when the shot was taken so I didn't think it is fair to pass judgement -- especially since I have had all sorts of things happen in the field(good and bad), which is just part of hunting. 

Cheers.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

They showed video footage of it and is certainly is very bad publicity...the hing is walking through the brush with the arrow hitting every branch, looks awfully uncomfortable.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

What really happened here was a bunch of PETAphiles cornered and captured this unfortunate "Bucky" and had this arrow surgically inserted . Then they released this deer in to the avenues to further the interests of Doyle Moss, Deseret Land and Livestock, SFW, and the SUWA.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

or maybe the wolves did it.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> There's got to be a way to increase hunter accountability to limit some of the stupidity we've all seen on the front and during the regular season.


There are several things that can be done. First on the list is NBEF Bowhunter ed. and maybe an incentive to get hunters to take it. Incentives will come later, but for right now we need instructors. The DWR is asking for help and it's time for those of us who can help to step up:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/additional ... uctor.html

Beyond the NBEF course, we need to come up with ways to help bowhunters (and the industry) understand that technology is fine and dandy, but it's a poor substitute for weapon proficiency and marksmanship. In fact, the opposite is probably closer to the truth.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Like I said before, this is Hunting. Things like this can happen. It is crazy to see a photo like this and think that we could have saved it by taking an archery course. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many scenario's could have created this situation and they could have all been a legitimate class of action that resulted in a wounded deer with an arrow hanging out of it. Bad for the non hunting public to see..............sure, going to get it fixed by taking a class............Bogus. If you have not had a bad experience with hunting either rifle or archery, you have simply not hunted long enough. 
I am not saying that an archery course wouldn't be good for hunting in general but I feel that it should be volunteer only. There are getting way too many stipulations.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> Like I said before, this is Hunting. Things like this can happen. It is crazy to see a photo like this and think that we could have saved it by taking an archery course. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many scenario's could have created this situation and they could have all been a legitimate class of action that resulted in a wounded deer with an arrow hanging out of it. Bad for the non hunting public to see..............sure, going to get it fixed by taking a class............Bogus. If you have not had a bad experience with hunting either rifle or archery, you have simply not hunted long enough.
> I am not saying that an archery course wouldn't be good for hunting in general but I feel that it should be volunteer only. There are getting way too many stipulations.


As to where it was hit, I agree, could have jumped the string...However, do you agree with what others posted that it must have been way too far or way too weak to not have done more damage?


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## RTMC (Sep 10, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many scenario's could have created this situation


That is exactly what it comes down to. To speculate it was a low poundage bow, or whatever else you want to come up with is exactly that..Speculation. Everyone can come up with scenarios in their head, but like 22 said, many scenarios could have happened, and only the shooter knows. 
Lack of penetration? Maybe there was a deflection! Or any one (or ten) of the other million things that it can come down to when hunting.


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## Fukarwee (Dec 29, 2010)

I personally would guess something slowed the arrow down quite a bit and changed the flight pattern a bit. Unfortunately I have seen it before. maybe it skipped off a branch or skipped off something hit the ground and skipped. no way somebody would be taking a head shot cause it would have passed through, and hopefully no body would have been taking a long enough range of a shot at the head for it to slow down that much.. But it does look bad. unfortunately stuff like this happens. Its hunting.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> Like I said before, this is Hunting. Things like this can happen. It is crazy to see a photo like this and think that we could have saved it by taking an archery course. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many scenario's could have created this situation and they could have all been a legitimate class of action that resulted in a wounded deer with an arrow hanging out of it. Bad for the non hunting public to see..............sure, going to get it fixed by taking a class............Bogus. If you have not had a bad experience with hunting either rifle or archery, you have simply not hunted long enough.
> I am not saying that an archery course wouldn't be good for hunting in general but I feel that it should be volunteer only. There are getting way too many stipulations.


16 states already require the NBEF course and the course itself has proven benefits. Meanwhile, Utah's course *IS* voluntary and nobody's pushing to change that...oh, except for a member of the Wildlife Board. Meanwhile, I suggest that as bad as this particular bit of publicity is, a response from bowhunters like "this is hunting" is inaccurate, irresponsible and not at all what the public, other hunters or the Board want to hear from us. We can do a lot better than that.

It's like excusing reckless driving because after all, if you drive long enough you're going to have an accident anyway. Call it bogus, but I think we can and should make every effort to keep wounding rates at a minimum. Not only is Utah's NBEF course one simple way to work towards that goal, but voluntary support of the program is our best defense against new "stipulations".


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Finn we may have a few differences you and me... but I agree with you 100% on this one. Bowhunter ed is a necessary thing and I think it should be mandatory in all sates. There are just way too many uneducated people out there with sharp weapons in their hands. Education is the key to less wounded animals. It won't cure the problem, but it couldn't hurt.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Tex, I don't agree with you on too many things when you agree with Finn.........haha
Again, I am ok with education. Hunter safety is long and boring enough. To add more of the education process in Archery, might help. All that I am saying is that there is a VERY good chance that the shot afore mentioned was not by someone or a situation that the extra night of education would change. I know as well as the next guy that this is an ugly sight and we don't like that out there as our image gets tarnished. I also know as well as the next guy that these "bad" things can happen to "good" hunters. Last year, I shot at 7 Antelope that were GONE when the arrow got there upon hearing the release of my arrow. (not at 200 yards either :lol: )Any one of those could have ended up with an arrow in the butt or like this little buckie has going on.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Last year, I shot at 7 Antelope that were GONE when the arrow got there upon hearing the release of my arrow. (not at 200 yards either)


Well hell, if your bow didn't sound like a .17 HMR going off you might have actually killed one of those antelope bucks. So if you weren't at 200 yards what was it? 180? :mrgreen:


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

elk22hunter said:


> All that I am saying is that there is a VERY good chance that the shot afore mentioned was not by someone or a situation that the extra night of education would change.


Maybe not.....but then again maybe it would've. Heck the shooter might've been in class the day he took that shot and it would've never happened.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Isn't one of the final steps of Bowhunter Ed having to go out and prove you can shoot your bow with at least some sort of accuracy? Maybe we just did that when the instructor here taught the class because we had the range. I was under the impression that was required. I think Elk22 is right... the CLASS won't change much at all unless the person is really uneducated on what a good shot is or whatever... having to prove they can shoot out to say "X" amount of officially supported distance with some degree of accuracy in order to be able to hunt with a bow is what would either make them practice or take up another form of hunting.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Sometimes people just need to be reminded of where they are in comparison to others. How many of us have started something, doesn't matter what, with our sights aimed high only to slip into medocrity over time?

A class taken periodically could remind us of what our goals and ethics as an individual archer should be. The idea would not be to have people be at a mandated level, but more a way to motivate people to elevate their own standards back to what they were when we started doing this. 

I know sometimes I have to reel myself in after getting a bit full of myself. My personal distance limitation has always been 50 yards when hunting. Over time though I've heard many of my friends bragging about hitting 80 - 120 yards with ease so I let my limitation slip just because I feel like a wuss. But then I remind myself that it doesn't matter what others do, all that matters is what I feel comfortable with. A class, with the right content, could bring some of us back to our true north so to speak.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Yes, we really need more government regulations in hunting. That way we can blame the system for any and all failures. Then we can ask for and receive even more government regulation. We really need more classes, permits and oversights from our government. And more taxes and fees with which to cover the costs for the enforcement of said regulations. 


So a deer has an arrow in its neck. BFD. Lets all get our panties in a wad, and ask big brother to make it all better. 

And then next week we can bitch about how big the government is, and how the wildlife board has screwed us out of our hunting "privileges".


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Loke said:


> Yes, we really need more government regulations in hunting. That way we can blame the system for any and all failures. Then we can ask for and receive even more government regulation. We really need more classes, permits and oversights from our government. And more taxes and fees with which to cover the costs for the enforcement of said regulations.
> 
> So a deer has an arrow in its neck. BFD. Lets all get our panties in a wad, and ask big brother to make it all better.
> 
> And then next week we can **** about how big the government is, and how the wildlife board has screwed us out of our hunting "privileges".


Normally I agree with you, but you are way off base on this and I am surprised by your response! So a deer has an arrow in it neck. BFD. Uh if that isn't the most ignorant statement I have saw in a while, if I can be blunt it is a BIG ****ING DEAL if you ask me. I don't like guberment in my business either, but sometimes people need a little extra incentive.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > Last year, I shot at 7 Antelope that were GONE when the arrow got there upon hearing the release of my arrow. (not at 200 yards either)
> 
> 
> Well hell, if your bow didn't sound like a .17 HMR going off you might have actually *killed one of those antelope bucks*. So if you weren't at 200 yards what was it? 180? :mrgreen:


They were DOES. Much faster! :mrgreen:


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't think that most of the people dragging their feet are saying that education would not help make archery a better sport and increase awareness and ethical sportsmanship. 
What I am saying is that "these things happen". It is not pretty but a fact and truth that can and will happen in archery hunting. I don't believe that it was by a Bozo as much as something went south and I don't know what it was by looking at a photo of a deer with an arrow hanging out of him. These photo's have been on the news and such for the past several years. I have seen others and I am sure that we will see more in the future. It happens with Rifles, Muzzy's and archery. I would see putting more of an effort into letting the public know how bad that we feel when it does and possibly try to get the media to stop sending out the message that hunters are non caring individuals who mame animals. Classes in those catagories would go further in my oppinion.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Jahan, I guess that my point was somewhat hidden in the sarcasm. But I really do think that there is a whole lot being made out of nothing here. No one knows what happened to this deer. For all I know, he could have stuck his head in a bush and got snagged on an arrow that someone lost 3 years ago. And for everyone to be asking for more hunter education requirements (government regulation) is assinine. Where is the hunter that has never missed a shot at anything? When you are he, then you can preach to the imperfect. Until then, lets do our best to improve our sport, not critisize those who are not as perfect as we think ourselves to be. And leave the government out of it. Ethics are best taught in the home (and in the field) by parents who care, not by government edict. Look at the moral standards of our government right now. Do you really think their ethics are better than yours? Do you want them to decide how to best teach what they don't know?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

elk22hunter said:


> What I am saying is that "these things happen". It is not pretty but a fact and truth that can and will happen in archery hunting. I don't believe that it was by a Bozo as much as something went south and I don't know what it was by looking at a photo of a deer with an arrow hanging out of him.


You're right about the fact that things happen, they always have and they always will. But until we will understand the world we live in we will always be, at least in part, our own worst enemies.

We live in a politically correct society where education and awareness are considered minimums in being responsible. When something goes bad then we tell the public all the things we are doing to educate bowhunters and everyone just feels better. It wouldn't just be a warm and fuzzy solution either becauswe my guess is with some education these types of things would happen less often. Politics, media attention, and a non-hunting public drive policy. I'm not saying that we need to bend over and grab our ankles but adding some education will HURT NO ONE. There isn't one archery hunter in Utah that couldn't find 8 hours or less to take a class in the 48 weeks between seasons.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> There isn't one archery hunter in Utah that couldn't find 8 hours or less to take a class in the 48 weeks between seasons.


Or that wouldn't if they thought it would increase the chances that we'd be able to continue to enjoy the extended archery hunting privileges we enjoy now.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I am still saying Bull Crap to all this! We need another institutional class to train us on "how to not misplace an arrow" like we need another hole in our heads. Classes will NOT fix this problem. I just returned from archery league where about 9 of the 45 guys shoot longbow or recurve. About 5 shoot fingers and sights (compound) and a couple shoot bare bow compound. Our longes shot is 30 yards and the average is 25. I scored the guys next to me who shot two long bows, a compound with sights and fingers and one decked out and a younger girl. They missed the target on about 15% of their arrows and hit heads, legs, butts and guts most of the night. These guys that are shooting the above said weapons are the "Old timers". They have been bow hunting for all their lives and are in thier 60's. They love it. They miss alot. If I were an animal in front of them, I would like my chances of survival. Three weeks of class's are not going to help them not hit a deer in the head leaving an arrow hanging out. It is rediculous to think that it would. Now on the other hand, the other guys who are great shooters and are getting near a perfect score consistantly can get the buck-eggles just as easy as the next guy and screw up a shot. 
You are beating a dead horse and this is STUPID!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Those old timers need to hang it up. Shooting a longbow is not an excuse for crappy shooting skills. AND, shooting high tech equipment doesn't automatically give you a free pas to take 90 yard shots. MOST archers know this, but a vast majority of the newbies don't have a clue. They need to be educated. Period.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

So who gets to decide what is "educated"?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Those old timers need to hang it up. Shooting a longbow is not an excuse for crappy shooting skills. AND, shooting high tech equipment doesn't automatically give you a free pas to take 90 yard shots. MOST archers know this, but a vast majority of the newbies don't have a clue. They need to be educated. Period.


We have no one to blame but ourselves. The hunting industry promotes intentional or unintentionally (just depends on your point of view) this damaging behavior through the majority of the hunting shows and/or advertisements they use to sell products, by buying those products and supporting those manufactures we reinforce the benefit of using said practices. It's a vicious cycle.

Slowly but surely technology is attempting to replace woodsman ship and skill.

No matter what education you send hunters through, when most are presented the chance to make the ethical choice on a questionable shot, overconfidence and/or greed will overcome them and they will attempt it. There is just no effective way to govern and enforce good shot choice ethics especially when such behavior is promoted like it is now.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

So do you anti-education guys believe that the state hunter ed class is in a word "wrong"? 

We won't stop making bad shots....we 1)limit them as much as reasonably possible and 2)we show the public we care enough to educate ourselves.

That's the funny some of you fight it now...but down the road we'll probably be in a situation where we'd be tickled to be able to take a class if it meant you could hunt with a bow in a county anywhere near Salt Lake. Perspective gentlemen.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

This argument is all about ethics. That is something that we teach our kids when we introduce them to hunting. It is not something that the government can teach. You can't teach what you don't know. 

and still no one knows how that arrow came to be lodged inn the side of that deer's neck. I think he did it to himself to make a political statement.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Tex says that these guys should hang it up since they can't hit constantly. That is not the answer. I have shot for three weeks of league now and out of a possible 400 points, I have a 392, a 398 and a 400. I am shooting a bow with all the "hunting" whistles and bells. No 3-D stabilizers or optic lenses. These primitive shooting guys are the president of the archery club and his executive committee and are great guys. They have dedicated thier lives to archery and have gone to Canada on Caribou hunts that they came home with NOTHING because they couldn't get within range for their stick bows and simply wont cave into a modern bow or a rifle. They make a few good shots but miss many because of the weapon they are shooting. They average about 220-250 out of 400. 
So because of a deer with an arrow in the side of his head, these guys should take a class that tells them to either start shooting better or they have to switch to a modern bow or maybe just give it up because they cant hit a paper plate at 30 yards every time. Many people change from a bow like mine to a stick bow because they like the "challenge". Some take their sights off from their compound bows because they like to use their instincts and make it a bit more "Challenging". People actually bow hunt because they enjoy it. They feel pained when they hit a deer wrong but "IT IS PART OF THE HUNT THAT CAN SOMETIMES HAPPEN"!!! If it was all about never having a bad hit or an arrow hanging out of the side of a deers head, we should join all the fruit, nut and berry people and eliminate hunting all together. 
I am not against teaching and training and Hunter Safetey but to tell ME who has been bow hunting all my life that if I go to a stupid class, I will not make any poor judgments on distance, deer wont jump string, and I will never have a hunt that brings my emotions down because I made a bad hit is what I am calling rediculous! Wake up people, your class is a stupid idea. If I thought for even one second that it would help, I would be on board. Again we are talking about a class that we would have to go to every year in our "off season" and not a class for new or young hunters to teach them a bit about safety and ethics. I do NOT want to attend your class but thanx for the invite!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

elk22hunter said:


> I am not against teaching and training and Hunter Safetey but to tell ME who has been bow hunting all my life that *if I go to a stupid class, I will not make any poor judgments on distance, deer wont jump string, and I will never have a hunt that brings my emotions down because I made a bad hit is what I am calling rediculous!* Wake up people, your class is a stupid idea. If I thought for even one second that it would help, I would be on board. Again we are talking about a class that we would have to go to every year in our "off season" and not a class for new or young hunters to teach them a bit about safety and ethics. I do NOT want to attend your class but thanx for the invite!


I can't speak for the others but I'm not saying that at all. I think it does two things...1)It would help some bowhunters, how do we decide who does and does not take the class? By having everyone take it then we know we cover everyone 2)It shows the non-hunting public we care about the resource and doing all we can to limit this stuff.

From there what ever bad shots happen, happen. If you get nothing out of the class you still aren't out anything but a few hours of your time.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> Tex says that these guys should hang it up since they can't hit constantly. That is not the answer. I have shot for three weeks of league now and out of a possible 400 points, I have a 392, a 398 and a 400. I am shooting a bow with all the "hunting" whistles and bells. No 3-D stabilizers or optic lenses. These primitive shooting guys are the president of the archery club and his executive committee and are great guys. They have dedicated thier lives to archery and have gone to Canada on Caribou hunts that they came home with NOTHING because they couldn't get within range for their stick bows and simply wont cave into a modern bow or a rifle. They make a few good shots but miss many because of the weapon they are shooting. They average about 220-250 out of 400.
> So because of a deer with an arrow in the side of his head, these guys should take a class that tells them to either start shooting better or they have to switch to a modern bow or maybe just give it up because they cant hit a paper plate at 30 yards every time. Many people change from a bow like mine to a stick bow because they like the "challenge". Some take their sights off from their compound bows because they like to use their instincts and make it a bit more "Challenging". People actually bow hunt because they enjoy it. They feel pained when they hit a deer wrong but "IT IS PART OF THE HUNT THAT CAN SOMETIMES HAPPEN"!!! If it was all about never having a bad hit or an arrow hanging out of the side of a deers head, we should join all the fruit, nut and berry people and eliminate hunting all together.
> I am not against teaching and training and Hunter Safetey but to tell ME who has been bow hunting all my life that if I go to a stupid class, I will not make any poor judgments on distance, deer wont jump string, and I will never have a hunt that brings my emotions down because I made a bad hit is what I am calling rediculous! Wake up people, your class is a stupid idea. If I thought for even one second that it would help, I would be on board. Again we are talking about a class that we would have to go to every year in our "off season" and not a class for new or young hunters to teach them a bit about safety and ethics. I do NOT want to attend your class but thanx for the invite!


What you and Loke are missing is you guys are in the upper percentage of hunters. Elk, you are the man with a bow and an excellent hunter. You have done a great job educating your children on ethics and when I think of a good example of what a bow hunter or sportsman should be, I think of people like you.

Now lets look at the other bow hunters. What about people that don't have parents or adults to teach them proper ethics or the know how of bow hunting? What about the kids that have parents that are teaching them bad ethics? There is a lot more of this out there that any of us want to admit. Are there some bow hunters that don't need a class, sure. Are there more that could benefit from a class and some of us who could always use a refresher, absolutely. I know many live by the credo of screw everyone that doesn't think like I do, well that doesn't get you very far. We DO need to worry about what non-hunters perceive us as. We DO want to look like we are trying to police our selves and are trying to be as ethical as possible. I realize there is a small group of radical that will never be persuaded, but there is a huge percentage of our population that are fence sitters. You piss off the fence sitters, we may not be hunting period. Where I am torn is I don't know if it should be mandatory, but without it being mandatory the ones that really need it won't ever take the class.

Lastly I agree that we will more than likely never know how that deer got that arrow in his neck. All we are doing is making assumptions, which I agree is not a good think, but it did bring up a very valid topic to be discussed. :mrgreen: :lol:


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Thank you for your compliment. However, I must point out another assumption that you have made that is not quite correct. I do not come from a hunting family. My father was scared of guns, and would not own guns. The grandfather that I knew, went deer hunting once, and was put off by the drinking that went on in the camp, and never went again. My first introduction to hunting was by one of the most prolific poachers in the area. He also got me interested in archery. I acquired my ethics by being disgusted by this person's disregard for game laws, and my love for the sport, and respect for the animals being hunted. I just wanted to be as successful at this sport as the poacher was, but I wanted the satisfaction of doing it the right way. Ethics cannot be taught. You either have them or you don't. You may have to earn them the hard way. A class mandated by a government agency will not make any one a better, more ethical hunter. 


One more thought, what kind of arrow head would only penetrate that short distance, and not cut its way out after being bumped around in the brush? The only ones that come to mind are a Judo head or a blunt. Those are not legal for hunting big game. Any one that would use one on a deer is a poacher, and would not be deterred by whatever they might have been taught in some government sponsored preschool.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Loke said:


> A class mandated by a government agency will not make any one a better, more ethical hunter.


I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Granted, a mandated class won't do much. You can force a guy to take a class, but you can't force anybody to learn.

But the course we're talking about isn't mandated, isn't government and isn't a course about ethics. The NBEF course is about bowhunting, taught by bowhunters, and let an intelligent person form his/her own ethics.

As far as the youth go, I coach kids (wrestling) who come to me to find out how to put on a jock strap, so don't kid yourself about family instruction. Like it or not, there's a place for some intervention in the family because the sad fact is, a lot of kids don't have family. And a lot of bowhunters don't have knowledgeable mentors.

But the NBEF isn't designed for kids...it's designed for bowhunters. Age isn't an issue.

Set aside your misplaced ideology and look at the facts. The NBEF course is worthwhile and a good investment of any bowhunter's time and attention. Government isn't even an issue, here. The issue is bowhunters helping one another.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Go back and read all of the posts. The idea that ALL bowhunters should be REQUIRED to take an ethics class before they could hunt with a bow is what is being proposed, and is what I'm arguing against. A voluntary program is a fantastic idea for those who choose to participate. But don't make it a government mandate. 

Completing an educational program does not make a person smarter. Especially where common sense is concerned. Some of the stupidest people I know have doctorate degrees.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

I would just like to throw this out there. You are never too old to learn something new!

But for those who know it all. You should think about giving a little bit of that knowledge to those less fortunate. Volunteer your time, skills, and knowledge. Become an instructor/mentor. You never know, you might learn something new. Like how to be humble!


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Thank you for your suggestions. Humility is one of my best attributes. Just ask any of my minions.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Great topic and I feel that it has been well represented on both sides. I think however that we have given this deer with the arrow in the head more verbage than any of the fence sitters that have been mentioned gave him. They winced when they saw him on the news and that was the end of it. We have beat it up for much longer. Just my oppinion of course.


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