# Utah Governers Tag Filled



## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

Looks like Mossback helped get another monster. 37" wide, 227". Southern Utah on public land. Robert Kay (front/right), the hunter.

[attachment=0:91i1lcb4]Mossback%20buck[1].jpg[/attachment:91i1lcb4]


----------



## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

congrats to all involved great buck


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Nice buck, but 7 guys to do it? :roll:


----------



## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> Nice buck, but 7 guys to do it? :roll:


Sure, that's how yer sposed to hunt when you paid 130 grand for one deer.

It's called _bounty_ hunting.

Sweet buck though, no doubt about it.


----------



## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

The future of hunting in Utah.............


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I never knew there was a limit on how many people can be on one hunt.

Any minute now Goofy is going to come on here and say, "Sawman, you're breaking the law for posting Mossback pictures." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> I never knew there was a limit on how many people can be on one hunt.


Can you really call it a hunt??? It is more like a game of how long until the animal dies. Once someone tells these clowns where a big buck or bull is, the clock starts ticking. The animal is already dead. He has no chance of survival. It is a canned hunt as far as i'm concerned. :evil:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > I never knew there was a limit on how many people can be on one hunt.
> ...


 :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


 :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Atta boy. :O||:


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Sorry to get the thread back to where it started, but nice buck!


----------



## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

looks kinda like the Coral Pinks area.. I heard about a couple really nice ones down there. Who knows though?? I REALLY want to know the story on the "Cherry Creek Henrys Buck"!!! That thing is a dream buck!


----------



## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't care how many guys it took to get it. I don't think that it took really that many to get it done. I look at it more of "What an awesome buck someone took and had lots of friends to share the moment with". All of my best hunts are when I had someone to share it with. The more the merrier!

I love seeing Utah produce PIGS like this!


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I don't care how many guys it took to get it. I don't think that it took really that many to get it done. I look at it more of "What an awesome buck someone took and had lots of friends to share the moment with". All of my best hunts are when I had someone to share it with. The more the merrier!
> 
> I love seeing Utah produce PIGS like this!


Well said Elkhunter22. This buck is a HOG, and he escaped a lot of hunters over the years.


----------



## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

Wow, that is a toad. Congrats, if I had that kind of money to burn i'd do the same thing. I think it is great we live in a state where its possible to get a buck like that on public ground.



elk22hunter said:


> I don't care how many guys it took to get it. I don't think that it took really that many to get it done. I look at it more of "What an awesome buck someone took and had lots of friends to share the moment with". All of my best hunts are when I had someone to share it with. The more the merrier!
> 
> I love seeing Utah produce PIGS like this!


You have a good pint Elk22 except i don't have to PAY my "freinds" to come hunting with me.


----------



## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> Nice buck, but 7 guys to do it? :roll:


I've heard as many as nine guys. As expected, there are all kinds of RUMORS about this hunt, like helicopter use, ect. :roll:



coyoteslayer said:


> Any minute now Goofy is going to come on here and say, "Sawman, you're breaking the law for posting Mossback pictures." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I got a kick out of how quickly you removed that one :lol: I saw it before goofy did and before you removed it. Bad boy!

I figured this one was okay as it has the Mossback logo on it. :wink:

I dont know the hunt details. I've seen some pictures of this buck alive on the hoof... a real brute for sure.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I got a kick out of how quickly you removed that one I saw it before goofy did and before you removed it. Bad boy!


Hehe :lol: :lol: , I didnt want to start a big mossback bash since I didnt know the story behind it. It was an email sent to me.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> You have a good pint Elk22 except i don't have to PAY my "freinds" to come hunting with me.


I would pay for my family and friends gas and lodging. When I went hunting in Wyoming and Colorado then I paid for all the hotel rooms because it's my hunt.



> You have a good *pint* Elk22


I also didnt know Elk22 was a drinker. :lol: :lol:


----------



## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

LOL, You got me CS hooked on phonics didn't work for me.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

pkred, if you were from out of state, or had limited time/knowledge of an area, would you hire a guide? If not, do you ever have others do your oil changes/tire rotations/house repairs? My point is, some folks have friends/family that are wiling and ABLE to help make a once in a lifetime hunt be top notch. Others do not, and in knowing many wealthy people, time is of more value to them than money, so paying someone to spend the time locating the areas that hold big bucks is 'cheaper' to them than taking time away from family/work. Us common folk exchange our time for money, most wealthy people exchange their money for time. It is all about what you/I value more. If I ever obtain a stone sheep in Canada, I WILL be hiring the best guide service I can, and I won't feel like I 'cheated' one **** bit.


----------



## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> pkred, if you were from out of state, or had limited time/knowledge of an area, would you hire a guide? If not, do you ever have others do your oil changes/tire rotations/house repairs? My point is, some folks have friends/family that are wiling and ABLE to help make a once in a lifetime hunt be top notch. Others do not, and in knowing many wealthy people, time is of more value to them than money, so paying someone to spend the time locating the areas that hold big bucks is 'cheaper' to them than taking time away from family/work. Us common folk exchange our time for money, most wealthy people exchange their money for time. It is all about what you/I value more. If I ever obtain a stone sheep in Canada, I WILL be hiring the best guide service I can, and I won't feel like I 'cheated' one **** bit.


I agree with you see my first post "If I had the money I would do the same thing". My issue was someone calling the Moss back squad, a group of hunting "friends". Moss back is a guide business, and they do very well at what there good at. What they aren't, is a group of friends that hunt together for the fun of it. There is serious money in the big horn hunts in Utah. Doyle and his crew are at the top of that list. I don't have a problem with that as long as they keep it legal and ethical. But to say it's the same thing as hunting with your buddies, is a bold faced lie. That being said I regret the first post cause I think the main focus of this post it the AWESOME buck that was taken on public land. Not my personal interpretation of something someone said in a forum.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I agree with you see my first post "If I had the money I would do the same thing". My issue was someone calling the Moss back squad, a group of hunting "friends". Moss back is a guide business, and they do very well at what there good at. What they aren't, is a group of friends that hunt together for the fun of it. There is serious money in the big horn hunts in Utah. Doyle and his crew are at the top of that list. I don't have a problem with that as long as they keep it legal and ethical. But to say it's the same thing as hunting with your buddies, is a bold faced lie. That being said I regret the first post cause I think the main focus of this post it the AWESOME buck that was taken on public land. Not my personal interpretation of something someone said in a forum.


I don't believe there is a huge difference between 7 friends and 7 guides unless your friends are lazy and aren't willing to bust their butt for you. The animals don't know that money is involved :lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you remember this buck? It was taken with family and friends. AGAIN, with family and friends.










Mark Hogan's son and friends busted their butts off to get this buck.


----------



## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

Here's a couple of more pictures of the buck and hunter.

[attachment=1:2cdm1nye]rsz_image1.jpg[/attachment:2cdm1nye]
[attachment=0:2cdm1nye]rsz_image2.jpg[/attachment:2cdm1nye]


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> pkred, if you were from out of state, or had limited time/knowledge of an area, would you hire a guide? If not, do you ever have others do your oil changes/tire rotations/house repairs? My point is, some folks have friends/family that are wiling and ABLE to help make a once in a lifetime hunt be top notch. Others do not, and in knowing many wealthy people, time is of more value to them than money, so paying someone to spend the time locating the areas that hold big bucks is 'cheaper' to them than taking time away from family/work. Us common folk exchange our time for money, most wealthy people exchange their money for time. It is all about what you/I value more. If I ever obtain a stone sheep in Canada, I WILL be hiring the best guide service I can, and I won't feel like I 'cheated' one **** bit.


Yep, I agree.

Man that is one fine deer.


----------



## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> I don't believe there is a huge difference between 7 friends and 7 guides unless your friends are lazy and aren't willing to bust their butt for you. The animals don't know that money is involved


The difference is the everyday joe hunter who happens to draw a great tag may have several family and friends help them on the actual hunt and on some weekend scouting trips, but I highly doubt any of them will be camped out in the woods 24/7 for weeks or even months at a time looking for a monster for thier family or friend.

Awesome buck though, bought and paid for. And i'm sure the money will go to some great habitat improvement here in Utah. Atleast thats what we're told it goes to.


----------



## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

Nope never seen that buck before CS. I'm guessing due to the velvet that was an archery deer? Was that a public land hunt? I tried to zoom in but the text was still unreadable. The debate of hunters using guides aside, it's pics of huge dream bucks like those two that make me think if you put in the work anybody has a chance how ever slim of bagging a monster muley like either one of the ones in this post  8)


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> it's pics of huge dream bucks like those two that make me think if you put in the work anybody has a chance how ever slim of bagging a monster muley like either one of the ones in this post


We have a winner. If you put in the time scouting for big deer and keep tabs on them until the hunting season rolls around then you have a better chance at bagging a big buck. The buck that the mossback boys killed was on public land. Any hunter could have killed this buck.

The buck is velvet was taken by Mark Hogan who drew the Sportsman tag. They scouted and scouted and scouted until they came across this buck.

This year a youth hunter killed a hog I believe on Cedar Mountain.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I don't believe there is a huge difference between 7 friends and 7 guides unless your friends are lazy and aren't willing to bust their butt for you. The animals don't know that money is involved :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Do you remember this buck? It was taken with family and friends. AGAIN, with family and friends.


Ya, but the feel good thing about the Hogan buck was that after Mossback's hunter had offered him TEN GRAND not to shoot this deer so he could fly in and shoot it a day later, he told Mossback and their hunter to go pound sand and shot the buck himself on his sportmans tag. :lol: That was a happy day for the blue collar little guy. I only wish some broke dick Johnny Punch-clock local boy with a recurve bow could have shot the spider bull too...


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I only wish some *broke dick* Johnny Punch-clock local boy with a recurve bow could have shot the spider bull too...


Tex,
What does Erectile dysfunction have to do with getting a good buck? I can appreciate your opinion, but let's not violate the ADA laws! :mrgreen:


----------



## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I'd be impressed if he had a 3 or 5 day tag like the rest of us working stiffs. Let's be honest: who wouldn't be able to find a real trophy with 5 months of hunting time, a nearly unlimited amount of space to hunt in, and 7 men on the take 24/7 for finding a big one? The story on this buck doesn't do one thing for my ED. It sure is a dandy buck, though. :|


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

BirdDogger said:


> I'd be impressed if he had a 3 or 5 day tag like the rest of us working stiffs. Let's be honest: who wouldn't be able to find a real trophy with 5 months of hunting time, a nearly unlimited amount of space to hunt in, and 7 men on the take 24/7 for finding a big one? The story on this buck doesn't do one thing for my ED. It sure is a dandy buck, though. :|


Are you saying you think 7 guys have been looking 24/7 since September 1st for this buck? :?

Also, you do know an identical tag was drawn by a "working stiff" as well, right? Is it the most impressive buck killed under the most impressive circumstances? I guess it depends on who you ask. But, why are so many people quick to imply this guy isn't much of a 'hunter' just because he hired a guide? How many people know the hunter from Adam? Who here knows the story on how this buck was taken? I don't, but the only thing I'm jealous of is him being able to fulfill HIS life long dream HIS way. If only all hunters were so lucky.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

The most impresive thing about all these brokered animals is how much money they bring.

And Pro compares a hunting guide to a oil change or some other of lifes chors. :lol: 

Well hunting is a hobby or sport to me and most. Most would say that the kill is a minimal part of the whole hunting experience. Pro obviosly has his motives for promoting guided hunting. :roll: :roll: :roll: 

Rich guys hire guides to help them shoot big bucks so they can stroke themselves back in their office on their hunting prowis. :mrgreen: 

How about hiring a profesional golfer to drive the ball to the green. Make an aproach shot and leave you with a 5ft putt. You sink it have an under par round and brag about what a golfer you are. Hey Jim did you here? I shot 5 under at Agusta this weekend. Wow Augusta? Thats a hard coarse and its way out in Georga. Yah. I didnt have a lot of time so I flew out Saturday afternoon and was home by Sunday night. God those red eyes are a b*tch. :wink:


----------



## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

That is truley a great! great buck! I wonder if the guy who payed a ton of cash. Will also be entitled to receive a cut of the money from the DVD MOSS BACK that is probally in the edit stages as we speak. after all its" ALL ABOUT THE HUNT FOR MOSS NOT THE MONEY""?. HUMBABUG!!


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> The most impresive thing about all these brokered animals is how much money they bring.
> 
> And Pro compares a hunting guide to a oil change or some other of lifes chors. :lol:
> 
> ...


I see you enjoy writing fiction and fatbass likes reading fiction. :? A word of advise, if you are serious about your career as a fictional writer, get some sort of spell check. :idea:


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> I see you enjoy writing fiction and fatbass likes reading fiction. :? A word of advise, if you are serious about your career as a fictional writer, get some sort of spell check. :idea:


 For some reason I cant log on in Firefox.

But its safe to say you can read my posts. :mrgreen:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

fatbass said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > Iron Bear said:
> ...


My bad. I knew you like fiction since you are a libertarian and actually believe voting for losertarians makes you smart. Far stretched fiction right there in the humor section. -_O-

Iron Bear, based on your ignorant post, I am guessing you have never been on, nor witnessed, a guided hunt. Before you continue writing your fictional novel, do a little research so the story has some resemblance of the real world to make it a little believable.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

fatbass said:


> Voting libertarian will save the country. Voting republican keeps the status quo. You figure it out. :wink: How has voting libertarian worked for you/country so far? Have they made ANY progress, picked up ANY national seats, been taken serious by enough people to make even a ripple in the politics of this nation? When will you figure it out?
> 
> I'd love a guided hunt. I would just make sure I didn't pay up front and have the guide abscond. :O•-: That's what I like about you fatbass, you talk out your backside better than anyone I know. Funny you make comments on topics you know NOTHING about. Not that should be a surprise or anything. It's your MO.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

What? You have to have been on a guided hunt to know what Im talking about?

If thats the case then you shuld shut up on half the crap you pontificate on this sight. Have you ever been president? No. Have you ever even met one? I have. So does that make me an expert on the subject and you ignorant? :mrgreen:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> What? You have to have been on a guided hunt to know what Im talking about? No, but it helps. And based on your comments you are clueless about the subject. A little research into the matter would help you look less ignorant.
> 
> If thats the case then you shuld shut up on half the crap you pontificate on this sight. Have you ever been president? No. Have you ever even met one? I have. So does that make me an expert on the subject and you ignorant? :mrgreen: I have met a US President, and I have had numerous conversations with 2 Governors, 2 US Senators, 4 US Congressman, 1 Salt Lake County mayor, and numerous other state/local politicians. Maybe you "shuld" pick a better example. :-|O|-:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

fatbass said:


> Hey, now, Iron Bear! Pro is now a God..er I mean a mod so go easy or he'll ban your ass! :roll:


Never been asked to be a mod, likely will never be asked. Otherwise you would be long gone for your constant personal attacks, spreading of lies, and crying.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Is there a smiley for Blow hard?

Thats why I like to pic on Pro. He is larger than life. And yet such an great man spends so much time here on the UWN. Why is that? I am a looser. I will be the first to tell you. I havent got nothing better to do than pass my time in stupid chat forums. On occasion. 

I know a few go getters. And none of them spend anytime on internet chat forums. Little lone have 1000s of posts. What gives Pro? Why the looser hobby?


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

By the way agian you got me beat. I have only met Pres Carter when I was a baby. My mom has the pic. :mrgreen:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Is there a smiley for Blow hard?
> 
> Thats why I like to pic on Pro. He is larger than life. And yet such an great man spends so much time here on the UWN. Why is that? I am a looser. I will be the first to tell you. I havent got nothing better to do than pass my time in stupid chat forums. On occasion.
> 
> I know a few go getters. And none of them spend anytime on internet chat forums. Little lone have 1000s of posts. What gives Pro? Why the looser hobby?


The first sign of losing a debate is making personal attacks. Well done! 8)

Don't forget, it was YOU that did the 'blowing' first with bragging about meeting a US President. The for it to be the least competent one ever, classic.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Oh come on Pro. You have been "Blowing" since Sept 07 when you joined.

I think that one could debate Carter Vs your hero Bush.

And it was a dandy buck shot. By the Mossback boys.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> I think that one could debate Carter Vs your hero Bush.


You pay as little attention to politics as you do other subjects I see. I am no fan of GWB, he did some dumb things, but no President was as dangerous to America being safe/free than the peanut farmer.


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> Iron Bear said:
> 
> 
> > I think that one could debate Carter Vs your hero Bush.
> ...


I can think of one ................


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

plottrunner said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > Iron Bear said:
> ...


I was trying to forget about the impostor in there right now. Thanks for reminding me! :wink:


----------



## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

Here is another example of Good ole boys from Utah getting it done the old fashion way.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... Sfficial


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

What is the "old fashion way"?


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I will bet its not paying 6 figures for a trophy.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

What someone 'pays' can be measured many different ways. Exchanging something of value for something else of a value happens on EVERY hunt. Time/money are just a couple of the ones people seem to focus on. You apparently value cash more than the Governor's tag holder, so what?


----------



## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

Dude pay $130,000 for that? Fantastic buck, for sure.......

I bet the 12 or 13 year old that got the 235" buck down south is thinkin' he got himself one helluva bargain!


----------



## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> What is the "old fashion way"?


humm... thats easy, without a 24/7 crew and a bunch of $$.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Darin Noorda said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > What is the "old fashion way"?
> ...


Who has such a deal? :? :roll:

Funny how that Sportsman tag hunter, who was supposedly hunting the "old fashion way", got a phone call (is that old fashion?) from some 'friends' that spotted a monster buck while rounding up cattle. I do believe there was a fair amount of 'helpers' in tow for this "old fashion" hunt. I wonder if the hunter used a scope, binos, spotting scope, motorized vehicle, to put an end to his "old fashion" hunt. :O---:


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Thats why I like to pic on Pro. He is larger than life. And yet such an great man spends so much time here on the UWN. Why is that? I am a looser. I will be the first to tell you. I havent got nothing better to do than pass my time in stupid chat forums. On occasion.
> 
> I know a few go getters. And none of them spend anytime on internet chat forums. Little lone have 1000s of posts. What gives Pro? Why the looser hobby?


First of all, looser is a description of something being loose, however loser is someone prone to lose. Secondly, your posts are personal attacks, which is first of all, as Pro said the first symptom that you have lost the argument/discussion, but more importantly clearly a breach of forum rules. :RULES: :RULES: That was said as someone who is supposed to help monitor the site and keep things civil.
Now, posting simply as someone who frequents this site as an outdoor enthusiast...How Pro has the patience to try and talk sense into those who seem to have very little is admirable, but apparently a waste of time. Why does anyone give a rat's behind as to how much money this guy has, why he has so much and why so many people seem to care about some stranger who bagged a monster buck under perfectly legal methods. By the way, they now use UFO's since helicopters are prohibited. I looked into it. The best way to describe this envy, small penis syndrome. Does this guy's success really adversely affect your chances of success? I would dare say not, if you have been scouting this buck, please share the pics and I will picket the DWR offices with you. :roll: 
I say congrats to the hunter and thank you for your large contribution to our wildlife system that benefits all of us stiffs! To Mossback, good work doing exactly what you are paid to do and doing it well.


----------



## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

Good looking buck, and I'll admit I am jealous that I don't have the opportunity/ability to get a tag like that. (Unless I won the lottery). Aside from the debate of the "ethics" of how this buck was obtained, everyone must agree that it is a beautiful buck and a great thing that it was produced on Utah's Public Lands. To each his own as far as paying a guide, hunting alone, or inviting along 30 of your closest friends to join the hunt. Congratulations to the tag holder for putting his tag on a great specimen.


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

svmoose said:


> Good looking buck, and I'll admit I am jealous that I don't have the opportunity/ability to get a tag like that. (Unless I won the lottery). Aside from the debate of the "ethics" of how this buck was obtained, everyone must agree that it is a beautiful buck and a great thing that it was produced on Utah's Public Lands. To each his own as far as paying a guide, hunting alone, or inviting along 30 of your closest friends to join the hunt. Congratulations to the tag holder for putting his tag on a great specimen.


I meant to say that too, well stated SV!


----------



## ktowncamo (Aug 27, 2008)

What a buck!! Irregardless of the armchair QB'ing that will continue to ensue, that hunter must be so freaking stoked to have put that buck on the ground that I'm sure his joy is not the least squashed by the small amounts of negativity which surfaces every time a governor's tag is filled. Kudos to him for a well placed shot and the $$ he spent to support the DWR here in Utah, no matter how any of us feel about that organization.


----------



## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

:O>>:


----------



## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

Maybe all the naysayers about this would rather have had the hunter just kill a little 2 point. Then they wouldn't have to be so jealous...


----------



## skeptic (Apr 17, 2008)

Beautiful buck, One day I hope to draw the tag to have the opportunity to hunt a buck/elk/moose..etc.etc.. I will DIY when I do, as long as the state allows mossback and whomever to guide and follow deer around, congrats and good on them. I will try to do myself with my friends and hope for the best.


----------



## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

I still say this kind of gang hunting should be eliminated from the B&C and P&Y cause that is definitely not "Fair Chase"


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> Iron Bear, based on your ignorant post, I am guessing you have never been on, nor witnessed, a guided hunt. Before you continue writing your fictional novel, do a little research so the story has some resemblance of the real world to make it a little believable.


Hate to sound like such a bitch. But if you are going to single me out for being personal. This was Pro's reply to my insightful remark. I took it personal. :shock:


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> taking time away from family


You wont be taking any time away fro family at all take them along with you and spend time with family in our great outdoors. we all need time away from work so I will call bs on this part Pro. You are a nice guy but bs on this part of your post. :mrgreen:


----------



## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Some people will never learn, O|* O|* 

Skull krazy said it best. 
:O>>: :O>>: :O>>: :O>>: :O>>:


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

> I wonder if the guy who payed a ton of cash. Will also be entitled to receive a cut of the money from the DVD MOSS BACK that is probally in the edit stages as we speak. after all its" ALL ABOUT THE HUNT FOR MOSS NOT THE MONEY""?. HUMBABUG!!


He will not get any money off it. I bet you buy the dvd and you wont get to see the kill shot of the deer.The screen will go black just like on the spider bull.


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

The value of any trophy from the field depends not on its size but on the magnitude of the effort expended in its pursuit ~ Aldo Leopold


Chucking money around by the way doesn't count as "effort."


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I still say this kind of gang hunting should be eliminated from the B&C and P&Y cause that is definitely not "Fair Chase"


Never in my wildest dreams (I've had some pretty wild dreams before :lol: ) would I have ever thought that a hunter would be saying this about someone else's hunting experience. UWN was the first time I heard comments like this.

Wild animals are being hunted. Time and scouting is the method used for finding these animals. Even with all the scouting then things don't always come together. I remember when Doc Meyers killed that typical buck on the Paunsaugant in 2006. They had a hard time finding the buck for several weeks. They looked from sunrise to sunset and FINALLY after two weeks they killed the buck. I was hunting with Mossback at the time in the Bookcliffs and we got their report everyday. Doc Meyers was down there. It wasn't no drive down and get out of the truck and shoot deal like many of you describe.

My hunt wasn't a drive to the Bookcliffs and drive next to the third cedar tree and point the gun and shoot either. I killed my buck on the last day of the hunt. YES I could have killed something small, but I probably passed up 400 plus bucks the whole hunt.

A lot of guys don't have the patience to keep passing up bucks to look for a bigger buck.


----------



## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

Truely a great a buck. It is cool that they can grow them on public land like that here in utah. I hope that the money collected is used to increase opportunity for more people to harvest a trophly like that. I hope that all this isn't inspiring the state to trend tward an elitist only hunter program. Looks like they aren't having a hard time selling the Gov tags.


----------



## gooseblaster (Sep 2, 2009)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> I still say this kind of gang hunting should be eliminated from the B&C and P&Y cause that is definitely not "Fair Chase"


1+


----------



## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

Eliminated from B&C and P&Y because you're in the running for a top spot in there? Did this buck knock you out of your position in the listings? Give me a break... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: 

It's a GREAT buck, and if I had money like that to spend, I'd probably do it, too. 

If I had money like that, I'd probably pay a guide in Canada and Alaska for some moose, caribou, deer, etc. They know the area, and I'd expect them to know where to find a good one. Seriously, get over it, guys. Were you trying to get that same buck? Did he screw up your hunt because you were just about the close the deal on that same buck? Geez! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: 

Just be happy for the guy. So what if he paid money for it. Would you have had the chance at that same buck if he didn't pay the money for it? 

As far as fair chase, did they trap the deer first for him and sedate it so he could get close and make the shot? :roll: :roll: I just can't believe how many whinos there are on this site... :roll:


----------



## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

gooseblaster said:


> TopofUtahArcher said:
> 
> 
> > I still say this kind of gang hunting should be eliminated from the B&C and P&Y cause that is definitely not "Fair Chase"
> ...


:OX/:
Then you better revoke every B&C entry that had help of any kind, including friends & family.
"Gang hunting" should not be labeled as such simply because there are paid employess doing their job.


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

ban gang hunting from the record books, heck every hunter i saw on the late season elk hunts had a few to alot of help hunting them. there is a big diffrence from having a large group out helping the hunters to actually putting the animal on the ground. finding the buck are bull and actually getten him
on the ground is as diffrent as night and day. we had a large bull spotted long before the season ever started and we had more than just a few folkings with
binos spoting scopes you name it and the big bugger still gave us the slip and theres a big high 5 for him for doing it. helping out hunters is something i have enjoyed doing for more years than i can recall and i dont plan on quiting it very soon heck think about it you have a tag thats one hunt but if you go out and help friends family and heck even strangers that need it you get alot more hunting than if it was only your tag you were worried about. heck i was on 9 elk hunts 5 deer hunts and 3 antelope hunts and never fired a shot and had a ball the whole time i was out.


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

It is a heluva thing to see hunting come to this, but it is indeed the way of the world. Stand in front of it and get hit by a train thats running out of track.


----------



## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

I am just mad I didn't think of it first. :evil: :wink: :mrgreen: 8)


----------



## gooseblaster (Sep 2, 2009)

Its one thing to help out a buddy with scouting and such, but it is totally different thing when your guide or hunter is trying to pay someone off so they wont shoot a deer or elk. It's totally different thing when Mr. Moss uses trucks to block off a road headed up to Ephraim Canyon so no one can get through. He finally moved his trucks when the sheep rancher pulled out a shotgun. The biggest problem i have moss is he thinks he owns the whole **** state! :evil:


----------



## gooseblaster (Sep 2, 2009)

Oh and one more thing, the "spider bull".....give me a break! Just kind of courious and not trying to steal the thread but, who thinks the spider bull is farmed rasied or a wild elk?


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Its one thing to help out a buddy with scouting and such, but it is totally different thing when your guide or hunter is trying to pay someone off so they wont shoot a deer or elk. It's totally different thing when Mr. Moss uses trucks to block off a road headed up to Ephraim Canyon so no one can get through. He finally moved his trucks when the sheep rancher pulled out a shotgun. The biggest problem i have moss is he thinks he owns the whole **** state!


 :roll: :roll: :roll: Here we go again. Do you have pictures? We live in the age of technology, but yet NO pictures have ever surfaced.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Oh and one more thing, the "spider bull".....give me a break! Just kind of courious and not trying to steal the thread but, who thinks the spider bull is farmed rasied or a wild elk?


The spider bull was a wild elk.


----------



## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Oh and one more thing, the "spider bull".....give me a break! Just kind of courious and not trying to steal the thread but, who thinks the spider bull is farmed rasied or a wild elk?
> 
> 
> The spider bull was a wild elk.


The toughest part of the spider bull hunt was getting rid of the ear tag in photoshop. :mrgreen: :wink: :lol: It is all a conspiracy. :roll:


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> The toughest part of the spider bull hunt was getting rid of the ear tag in photoshop. It is all a conspiracy.


DNA doesnt lie :lol: :lol:


----------



## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

I can't beleive the spyder bull topic is still alive, C'mon, are you seriously going to bring it up again?? :O>>:


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

skull krazy said:


> I can't beleive the spyder bull topic is still alive, C'mon, are you seriously going to bring it up again?? :O>>:


To late it all ready has been brought back up. :mrgreen:


----------



## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

gooseblaster said:


> Oh and one more thing, the "spider bull".....give me a break! Just kind of courious and not trying to steal the thread but, who thinks the spider bull is farmed rasied or a wild elk?


Dont worry, this thread went off course about as quickly as I expected it to.. :wink:

I think Spidey was as wild as they get... just like the deer (the topic subject) in this thread.


----------



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Awesome buck indeed, could have been an equally awesome hunt. I agree with those who have objected to the tone that follows this kind of hunt. Nothing against the guy as he is surely a very decent and successful person. For that matter, those Mossback guys run the best business in the guiding racket in the state- no question. Doyle is a great businessman. 

The reason it's an issue at all is that this kind of thing can't be celebrated as some huge success off of public land as people have stated. It CAN be celebrated as an awesome result of the business of hunting in Utah. Also it can be celebrated as the UDWR's successful partnership with groups who strive for trophy experiences, expos, and services that result from them in the name of conservation. :roll: The issue isn't that this is a bad guy hunter, but, instead, that this is a tough place we've come to where fair chase is going to be questioned, inequality in opportunity is condoned, and business and money mix with politics. 

I state it often- I miss the days when we hunted animals and not tags. Well, often at least when I post which is now almost never. LOL. Too darn busy with work, kids, and major life changes. I'm at an airport in El Paso and I spent some time talking to Texans about hunting here. There are great opportunities here, but they feel it is mostly on ranches and leases. 

I don't care where the animal was killed- it wasn't on public land as the public works with pages of rules, seasons, and competition that this kind of hunt doesn't have. When you have the tag this guy used it's like Utah becomes a private ranch hunt- just for you. LMAO- nice area!!!! Would love to hunt it myself someday. No one needs to defend this hunt. It isn't our finest hour or best foot forward as hunters. It's not how we want those who oppose us to view us, and it isn't nearly as cool as a kid who shoots a messed up deer, works with the DWR, and is rewarded for his honesty with the buck of a lifetime. No comparison. None.


----------



## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

amen steepndeep.


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> Awesome buck indeed, could have been an equally awesome hunt. I agree with those who have objected to the tone that follows this kind of hunt. Nothing against the guy as he is surely a very decent and successful person. For that matter, those Mossback guys run the best business in the guiding racket in the state- no question. Doyle is a great businessman.
> 
> The reason it's an issue at all is that this kind of thing can't be celebrated as some huge success off of public land as people have stated. It CAN be celebrated as an awesome result of the business of hunting in Utah. Also it can be celebrated as the UDWR's successful partnership with groups who strive for trophy experiences, expos, and services that result from them in the name of conservation. :roll: The issue isn't that this is a bad guy hunter, but, instead, that this is a tough place we've come to where fair chase is going to be questioned, inequality in opportunity is condoned, and business and money mix with politics.
> 
> ...


Agreed. 
With all the guides and wanna be guides on here it may seem as though you are part of the minority. A better share of Utah hunters, however, see it the same way as you do.


----------



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks for the support guys. I agree with you as well that the majority don't feel that this is the greatest thing for us. It sure isn't likely to change though, not now that money is so big of a factor. BTW- my brother guides with a reputable group in Utah, and they do a great job on private ranches. That's where I believe guides should play a role. I don't think guides should be allowed on public lands. It generates trmendous pressure as they have absolutely, purely, business motives. When business motives enter the picture they will push and influence the division to create and foster circumstances which allow them to offer clients these kinds of hunts. It's unavoidable. 

And yes- some guiding experiences are a joke. Some dude from Tennessee that has never seen an elk out shooting at the rock the guide points out to him in the fading light. Not that it's unique to guided folks, idiots abound right here at home, but there's no inherent halo over the guiding business even as they do their best to be "by the book." It's business, it isn't about ability or the client desire necessarily. It is about sucking up to the dude who forked out the money and then going home to tell your friends about big old buck Tennessee dude who did....X, Y, and Z. Your friends can't believe it, but it's true. 

I have the solution though. It just came to me. We need to start guiding businesses that are free. Non profit stuff where we work really hard to create friends and memories that last a lifetime all in the name of great hunting fun! We'll put the others out of business soon enough. 8) I'm just getting sour on life as I sit in the airport due to weather delays. Gotta love delays.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> Awesome buck indeed, could have been an equally awesome hunt. I agree with those who have objected to the tone that follows this kind of hunt. Nothing against the guy as he is surely a very decent and successful person. For that matter, those Mossback guys run the best business in the guiding racket in the state- no question. Doyle is a great businessman.
> 
> The reason it's an issue at all is that this kind of thing can't be celebrated as some huge success off of public land as people have stated. It CAN be celebrated as an awesome result of the business of hunting in Utah. Also it can be celebrated as the UDWR's successful partnership with groups who strive for trophy experiences, expos, and services that result from them in the name of conservation. :roll: The issue isn't that this is a bad guy hunter, but, instead, that this is a tough place we've come to where fair chase is going to be questioned, inequality in opportunity is condoned, and business and money mix with politics. Why can't raising HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars for conservation be celebrated? What 'Fair Chase' rules were broken on this hunt/ Are you privy to the details of this hunt? If so, let's here the FACTS not ASSumptions. EVERY person that is allowed to hunt in the world had an opportunity to obtain this tag, all but one chose NOT to obtain it. I call that equality at it's best.
> 
> ...


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> Not that it's unique to guided folks, idiots abound right here at home, but there's no inherent halo over the guiding business even as they do their best to be "by the book."


I have never run into a guide in my 15 years of hunting and I have run into boat loads of idiots! I am just amazed at how much attention one little outfit gets. Do you guys feel just as slighted by the DH guys who buy their service hours vs. those who actually do their 40 hours of service? I would guess that the general answer would be no meaning that the main issue is simply coveting what we, the stiffs, don't have. For me personally, it just inspires me to scout harder and work harder to get my own trophy or be able to afford a guide. For those of you who feel slighted as if this guy or these guys stole your own property...well, I can only feel sorry for you to have such a little man, hopeless perspective.


----------



## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

I wasn't going to reply to this thread but I'm going to anyway. I agree with both sides of the agrument on many points. Does anybody know exactly where this deer was killed? I don't see this being a general public land deer, because if I paid that much for a tag I would probably head for the Henries or Pachaguant(spelling?), Not that they don't exsist on public lands cuz I know there are some hogs on general public hunting areas. I don't condone the guy for doing what he did though if I had that kind of money I would of done the same except I would never use doyle moss for a guide, not because of his tatics but because he is a complete ass. 
Pro the only thing I don't agree with you on is you saying everyone had an oppirtunity to get this tag. I don't think 95% of utahans could afford this tag! Yeah IF we had the MONEY then the tag could go to anyone but it only goes to those who have the MONEY. I'm not bitter about it at all though, I happy that there are people that do spend that much to help out our wildlife. At least that is what we hope they do with the money.
Like me and my cousin have come up with, in Utah you can kill a monster buck on a general season hunt if your willing to work your butt off. Which is they way it should be. Honestly does everyone want to just have everyone killing monster bucks every year? It would get old pretty fast. I think that its deer like this that keep us going back to the woods year in and year out, so that we might have that once in a lifetime dream buck!


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

mikevanwilder said:


> I wasn't going to reply to this thread but I'm going to anyway. I agree with both sides of the agrument on many points. Does anybody know exactly where this deer was killed? I don't see this being a general public land deer, because if I paid that much for a tag I would probably head for the Henries or Pachaguant(spelling?), Not that they don't exsist on public lands cuz I know there are some hogs on general public hunting areas. I don't condone the guy for doing what he did though if I had that kind of money I would of done the same except I would never use doyle moss for a guide, not because of his tatics but because he is a complete ass. It was indeed killed in a general season area, NOT in a LE unit.
> Pro the only thing I don't agree with you on is you saying everyone had an oppirtunity to get this tag. I don't think 95% of utahans could afford this tag! Yeah IF we had the MONEY then the tag could go to anyone but it only goes to those who have the MONEY. I'm not bitter about it at all though, I happy that there are people that do spend that much to help out our wildlife. At least that is what we hope they do with the money. In America we ALL have the opportunity to create/make/spend untold amounts of wealth. The tag was open to ALL of us to bid on, that is why we ALL had the same opportunity to obtain this tag, as well as the IDENTICAL Sportsmen's Tag.
> Like me and my cousin have come up with, in Utah you can kill a monster buck on a general season hunt if your willing to work your butt off. Which is they way it should be. Honestly does everyone want to just have everyone killing monster bucks every year? It would get old pretty fast. I think that its deer like this that keep us going back to the woods year in and year out, so that we might have that once in a lifetime dream buck! This buck, and the buck taken on a general season area as well last year with this tag, show that there are monsters out there for a lucky or hard working hunter. the opportunity IS there, we just have to go get it.


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Pro, You are out of your mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How in the hell do you truly believe that anyone could have bid on this tag? $130,000?? I won't make that much money in the next 5 years. And i highly doubt 90% of Utahn's will make that much in the next 3 or 4 years. Your statement is ridiculous. Yeah someone could have drawn the sportsmans tag but to say everyone had the chance to buy THIS tag is laughable. I still think you guys(guides) and your big money, lazy, wanna-be hunters are putting the rest of us in our graves as far as hunting big game in UT goes. I agree 1000000% about the statement that guides should ONLY be allowed on PRIVATE land. I think it should be a felony to get caught guiding on public land. I also think CWMU's are the biggest joke as far as public access and opportunity goes. What a brilliant idea. That topic deserves its own thread.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

lunker, you haven't the money to buy this tag because of choices YOU made. Therefore, you have indeed the SAME opportunity to purchase a Governors tag, you have just chosen to not do so by choices YOU have made. Why should someone else be denied the opportunity because YOU didn't make decisions that would avail such a tag to you?

FWIW, I have 100% quit the guiding business. Family issues have made it impossible and undesirable for me to do it any longer. But, I have guided HUNDREDS of hunters over the years, and only a small handful are "big money, lazy, wanna-be hunters" as you describe them. Most are hard working folks who saved for years in order to fulfill a lifetime dream, a few have "big money", but they don't get big money by being "lazy", but from hard work, incredible drive to succeed, and focus. These are the very traits required to be successful hunters, not "wanna-be" hunters. I dare say 90% of the hunters I've guided over the years are better than average hunters, some are exceptional hunters. 

Why do YOU think guiding should be illegal on public lands? I am interested in such a mindset. And then to be against CWMU's to boot. :?


----------



## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> Pro, You are out of your mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How in the hell do you truly believe that anyone could have bid on this tag? $130,000?? I won't make that much money in the next 5 years. And i highly doubt 90% of Utahn's will make that much in the next 3 or 4 years. Your statement is ridiculous. Yeah someone could have drawn the sportsmans tag but to say everyone had the chance to buy THIS tag is laughable. I still think you guys(guides) and your big money, lazy, wanna-be hunters are putting the rest of us in our graves as far as hunting big game in UT goes. I agree 1000000% about the statement that guides should ONLY be allowed on PRIVATE land. I think it should be a felony to get caught guiding on public land. I also think CWMU's are the biggest joke as far as public access and opportunity goes. What a brilliant idea. That topic deserves its own thread.


So i am guessing if you owned a nice big cozy cattle ranch yourself, you would allow full public access to anyone who wanted to enter your property to hunt at their own free will?
C'mon....you can fool the tourist, not the residents. :roll:


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

skull krazy said:


> lunkerhunter2 said:
> 
> 
> > Pro, You are out of your mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How in the hell do you truly believe that anyone could have bid on this tag? $130,000?? I won't make that much money in the next 5 years. And i highly doubt 90% of Utahn's will make that much in the next 3 or 4 years. Your statement is ridiculous. Yeah someone could have drawn the sportsmans tag but to say everyone had the chance to buy THIS tag is laughable. I still think you guys(guides) and your big money, lazy, wanna-be hunters are putting the rest of us in our graves as far as hunting big game in UT goes. I agree 1000000% about the statement that guides should ONLY be allowed on PRIVATE land. I think it should be a felony to get caught guiding on public land. I also think CWMU's are the biggest joke as far as public access and opportunity goes. What a brilliant idea. That topic deserves its own thread.
> ...


Hell no, i would be the only one hunting it. Not open the WORST PART of it to the public and keep the rest for the big money guys. Instead i would not have either one :wink:


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> lunker, you haven't the money to buy this tag because of choices YOU made. Therefore, you have indeed the SAME opportunity to purchase a Governors tag, you have just chosen to not do so by choices YOU have made. Why should someone else be denied the opportunity because YOU didn't make decisions that would avail such a tag to you?
> 
> FWIW, I have 100% quit the guiding business. Family issues have made it impossible and undesirable for me to do it any longer. But, I have guided HUNDREDS of hunters over the years, and only a small handful are "big money, lazy, wanna-be hunters" as you describe them. Most are hard working folks who saved for years in order to fulfill a lifetime dream, a few have "big money", but they don't get big money by being "lazy", but from hard work, incredible drive to succeed, and focus. These are the very traits required to be successful hunters, not "wanna-be" hunters. I dare say 90% of the hunters I've guided over the years are better than average hunters, some are exceptional hunters.
> 
> Why do YOU think guiding should be illegal on public lands? I am interested in such a mindset. And then to be against CWMU's to boot. :?


BIG PICTURE For someone who is so involved in politics it is amazing that you don't see the big picture of what hunting has become. In fact, I believe that your political view points actually create a deeper, heavier shroud over it making it that much more difficult for you to see it.
Money and commercialization isn't a good thing. Greed, corruption, shamelessness, deceit, etc. isn't good for anything I assure you, including hunting.

Hunting is a rich mans sport. In your eyes, those who have made good choices and have the opportunity, they are the ones fortunate to be able to hunt. Those folks who have not made good choices, and do not make enough money to hunt, are not fortunate and probably should quit hunting. 
Fewer people with fewer opportunities and hunter numbers are dwindling. Is this a good direction, Pro, for people who don't have large quantities of money to spend that they should quit hunting???? Is this all part of the plan to weed out those who shouldn't be hunting in the first place?? Natural selection?? Survival of the fittest??


----------



## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > lunker, you haven't the money to buy this tag because of choices YOU made. Therefore, you have indeed the SAME opportunity to purchase a Governors tag, you have just chosen to not do so by choices YOU have made. Why should someone else be denied the opportunity because YOU didn't make decisions that would avail such a tag to you?
> ...


We are talking a couple of tags, your point is invalid. :?


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

jahan said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > proutdoors said:
> ...


What??? We are talking a couple tags???? Your short sightedness is as bad or worse than Pro's


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> BIG PICTURE For someone who is so involved in politics it is amazing that you don't see the big picture of what hunting has become. In fact, I believe that your political view points actually create a deeper, heavier shroud over it making it that much more difficult for you to see it. HELLO POT!
> Money and commercialization isn't a good thing. Greed, corruption, shamelessness, deceit, etc. isn't good for anything I assure you, including hunting. When did I ever say it was? :roll:
> 
> Hunting is a rich mans sport. In your eyes, those who have made good choices and have the opportunity, they are the ones fortunate to be able to hunt. Those folks who have not made good choices, and do not make enough money to hunt, are not fortunate and probably should quit hunting.
> Fewer people with fewer opportunities and hunter numbers are dwindling. Is this a good direction, Pro, for people who don't have large quantities of money to spend that they should quit hunting???? Is this all part of the plan to weed out those who shouldn't be hunting in the first place?? Natural selection?? Survival of the fittest?? Just the opposite. ONE tag is NOT going to end hunting for the masses. In fact, it helps ensure the masses can hunt. The money raised from this ONE tag goes to help improve/protect habitat that is NEEDED to ensure wildlife have the means of survival. It is the narrow vision of those who want to ban certain types of hunting who are pushing hunters away, not people like me who want to include MORE hunters. Allowing only people who think/hunt like you to hunt LIMITS the ability of many to do so.


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

the cost of the g tags and those sold at auctions are by in large a **** good way to help the wildlife and its habitat in large and while i like alot of folks are
somewhat suspicious of exactly were the funding does go i cannot hold the folks who by hardwork, inheratance or however they came up with there fortunes to much at fault for paying for the best they can get as long as legal
hunting methods are used and the harvest is ethical im fine with it, just wish it was me who could do it lol if i could i would hijack pro and go after big bears in alaska are something crazy enough to get me divorced. i just wish there was a better accounting for the funds received and i do think there a little over the top as for as total tags alloted to special interest groups and know i gots
to figure out how much the wifey is going to let me have out of our tax rebate and hope there is enough for both wyoming and colorado this year


----------



## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > We are talking a couple of tags, your point is invalid. :?
> ...


I agree with a lot of what mack1950 is saying. I personally don't have a problem with a few tags going to high bidder, but like mack said, I would like to know it all or at least most is being used properly. I just am not seeing your point, hunting is always changing and it is slowly turning into a pay to play game, but there isn't much we can do about it. Look back East. I don't like it, but I fear there is no way around it. So please explain where I am being so short sighted?


----------



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

The best part of this whole thread is you guys still refer to this as a "hunt". I can assure you wherever money is involved , so is corruption!!!


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

STEVO said:


> The best part of this whole thread is you guys still refer to this as a "hunt". I can assure you wherever money is involved , so is corruption!!!


Can ANYONE hunt w/o money? So, you're saying all hunters are corrupt. :? :roll:


----------



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> STEVO said:
> 
> 
> > The best part of this whole thread is you guys still refer to this as a "hunt". I can assure you wherever money is involved , so is corruption!!!
> ...


To a point, but the corruption increases with the $$$$$$$$$ :wink: . I would rather go home empty handed that tag somebody elses deer that I shot!!!


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Why/how is it "someone else's deer"?


----------



## rick_rudder (Dec 31, 2007)

great looking whitetail!


----------



## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

LOL, thats the biggest white tail black nose buck I have ever seen!!!! :twisted:


----------



## Seven (Jan 8, 2009)

[sarcasm] You Know I bet he was even using one of those expensive rifles that cost thousand of dollars. This just makes me worried how am I going to kill anything with my 500 dollar savage? [sarcasm]

[sarcasm] I just wish that they would stop selling these tags and pass along the cost to all us hunters. Sure our tag prices would go up but I would know that I would not have to be jealous of someone else deer. [sarcasm]

Hunting is what you make of it. It should not be based on how others hunt.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

These threads are always very fun to read. It's the same every year. :lol: :lol:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Seven said:


> Hunting is what you make of it. It should not be based on how others hunt.


A-FREAKING-MEN!


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> lunker, you haven't the money to buy this tag because of choices YOU made. Therefore, you have indeed the SAME opportunity to purchase a Governors tag, you have just chosen to not do so by choices YOU have made. Why should someone else be denied the opportunity because YOU didn't make decisions that would avail such a tag to you?
> 
> FWIW, I have 100% quit the guiding business. Family issues have made it impossible and undesirable for me to do it any longer. But, I have guided HUNDREDS of hunters over the years, and only a small handful are "big money, lazy, wanna-be hunters" as you describe them. Most are hard working folks who saved for years in order to fulfill a lifetime dream, a few have "big money", but they don't get big money by being "lazy", but from hard work, incredible drive to succeed, and focus. These are the very traits required to be successful hunters, not "wanna-be" hunters. I dare say 90% of the hunters I've guided over the years are better than average hunters, some are exceptional hunters.
> 
> Why do YOU think guiding should be illegal on public lands? I am interested in such a mindset. And then to be against CWMU's to boot. :?


OOPS!


----------



## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Pro the only thing I don't agree with you on is you saying everyone had an oppirtunity to get this tag. I don't think 95% of utahans could afford this tag! Yeah IF we had the MONEY then the tag could go to anyone but it only goes to those who have the MONEY. I'm not bitter about it at all though, I happy that there are people that do spend that much to help out our wildlife. At least that is what we hope they do with the money. In America we ALL have the opportunity to create/make/spend untold amounts of wealth. The tag was open to ALL of us to bid on, that is why we ALL had the same opportunity to obtain this tag, as well as the IDENTICAL Sportsmen's Tag.

I agree we all could of had the money, but I chose to be a Law Enforcement Officer which will never allow me to afford that kind of money, I did it by choice and don't regret it. I'm not bitter that I can't afford it either though. Someone has to do the low jobs.  
To me hunting is about the expirence not what you tag at the end. I would love to tag a buck like this but would rather do it by myself then have a guide service find it for me. 
Anyway like most have said it is all about money now anyway. I used to have some property that I hunted that held some big deer, but when the owner found out he could sell the hunting rights to his land for alot of money, he told me I was no longer able to hunt.


----------



## cfarnwide (Sep 10, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> These threads are always very fun to read. It's the same every year. :lol: :lol:


+1 -O\__-


----------



## cfarnwide (Sep 10, 2007)

Thanks for the new emoticon Petersen.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

:O•-:


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

"You know it as well as everyone else. if you know of ANY CWMU's operating as you claim, YOU should report them ASAP, as it is against the guidelines that qualify a landowner to operate as a CWMU. If YOU do nothing by whine on here, YOU are part of the problem. If, you are just repeating rumors, and you seem to like to do, how sad is that?"

Tell me who to tell about it and how i can prove it and i will in a heartbeat! Anything to get these guys in trouble would be great! They are as crooked as a car salesman.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Ummm really? Moderator stealth editing of posts? Please tell me UWN isnt decending to the level of "monstermorons.com"


-DallanC


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Ummm really? Moderator stealth editing of posts? Please tell me UWN isnt decending to the level of "monstermorons.com"
> 
> -DallanC


huh?? All I see is this, tell me what we are missing:


> Last edited by lunkerhunter2 on Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.


Did someone report the post? Yes.
Was he asked to edit it? Yes!
Did he do so? Yes, and very graciously! Thanks LH2!


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Huge29 said:


> Did someone report the post? Yes.
> Was he asked to edit it? Yes!
> Did he do so? Yes, and very graciously! Thanks LH2!


No not that one, the one just above mine, it had a little more content after that last line that disappeared without a "last edited by..." added to it, which happens when mods edit stuff. I run very very similar software so I noticed it.

Not saying things shouldnt be modded, just a reason "why" is nice 

-DallanC


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > BIG PICTURE For someone who is so involved in politics it is amazing that you don't see the big picture of what hunting has become. In fact, I believe that your political view points actually create a deeper, heavier shroud over it making it that much more difficult for you to see it. HELLO POT!
> ...


One tag??? One tag my butt.

I really think you would indeed like to weed out the "regular Joe hunter." He means nothing to you. 
I can see why your so into politics, your very much politician....say one thing, do another.

Pushing hunters away??? Opportunities are already limited and becoming worse for all but the elite that can fork out the dough. Why do you think that is? Numbers of hunters are dwindling at an alarming rate. 
How long do you think the "generous" wealthy can keep the "donations" going to keep up/stay even/offset the increasing numbers of lost hunters fees.


----------



## Petersen (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> > Did someone report the post? Yes.
> ...


When someone makes a post then edits it before someone else follows it with another post, no "Last edited by..." is added. If that wasn't the case, all I know is that I didn't do it.


----------



## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

And neither did I. OK . How much longer on this dead horse. -O\__-


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Wasn't me.

No mas, no mas...........Be happy, for crying out loud.


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Al Hansen said:


> And neither did I. OK . How much longer on this dead horse. -O\__-


Eventually if you beat the dead horse enough it actually works like CPR, kind of like this topic, it just keeps coming back to life. :mrgreen:


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> And neither did I. OK . How much longer on this dead horse.


Some horses never make good riding horses so their made into dog food. I believe this horse is one of those


----------



## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > 1BandMan said:
> ...


So what is your genius idea for replacing that $130,000 for one tag? Just do a little math and figure out how many tags that would take to replace that one tag, that doesn't affect me or you. If a deer tag is $45, it would take 2889 tags to replace the amount of revenue from one tag, oh my what an injustice.


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

jahan said:


> So what is your genius idea for replacing that $130,000 for one tag? Just do a little math and figure out how many tags that would take to replace that one tag, that doesn't affect me or you. If a deer tag is $45, it would take 2889 tags to replace the amount of revenue from one tag, oh my what an injustice.


Speak for yourself! I would prefer to have an extra 2,889 hunters packed in my region hunting on my 5-day hunt bagging another 1,200 or so bucks rather than have this guy out there any day he chooses anywhere he chooses over a 5 month period. Oh wait...maybe the DWR is on to something here! Don't forget about the other Sportsmen tag guys who get the exact same privileges for a minimal tag price.


----------



## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > So what is your genius idea for replacing that $130,000 for one tag? Just do a little math and figure out how many tags that would take to replace that one tag, that doesn't affect me or you. If a deer tag is $45, it would take 2889 tags to replace the amount of revenue from one tag, oh my what an injustice.
> ...


Very true, we just need to get more lucky and that could be us. :lol: 8)


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

WOW, I can tell we definitely have some MIT graduates that will be happily working for NASA soon.

They too are enjoying the trend of fewer hunters and more afluent folks becoming our base of future hunters as well as hunting for our future. 

With these kinds folks and this kind of attitude, I just cant wait for what the next 5-10 years will bring.


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

That is an amazing looking buck! And quite frankly, I applaud the hunter dropping that much coin on a hunt - for the tag, and for the guides. He alone has had a more positive economic impact than the national stimulus package, and that is money spent right here in our home state. I have no problem with it. Good for him, and a great hunt, and an amazing deer.


----------



## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

How much, approximately, do you think he paid the guides?


----------



## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> WOW, I can tell we definitely have some MIT graduates that will be happily working for NASA soon.
> 
> They too are enjoying the trend of fewer hunters and more afluent folks becoming our base of future hunters as well as hunting for our future.
> 
> With these kinds folks and this kind of attitude, I just cant wait for what the next 5-10 years will bring.


Ok Mr. GED, please explain the math to me then. :roll:

[attachment=1:2ba793fi]idiot.jpg[/attachment:2ba793fi]
[attachment=0:2ba793fi]InternetToughGuy.jpg[/attachment:2ba793fi]


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

-_O- -_O- -_O- -_O- -_O- -_O- -_O- -_O- :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: 

I bet Ibandman has nightmares about guides.


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

tuffluckdriller said:


> How much, approximately, do you think he paid the guides?


I have absolutely no idea. Whatever it was, I view it as money injected into a local economy that otherwise, would not have been spent there. If a rich guy wants to spend his money to pay guides, I'm not sure what the big deal is.

Does anyone know what he paid the guides? Really, I don't see it as any of my business.


----------



## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)




----------



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

I dont really mind the fact that he paid for his deer, Or the guy it the spider bull. The only issue I have with it is they sure take alot of credit where credit is not due to them. Hunting was never meant to be a "team sport". If your not willing or able to do your own leg work, you dont deserve to be out there on the mountain. It is a nice team photo tho :mrgreen: .

BTW. Im not saying that is not a awesome deer. I would LOVE to shoot a deer like that. Congrats to the guy for getting it. I can almost guarantee you that 6 of the 8 hunters in that photo have never shot a deer like that. Why wouldnt they go for it?? Selling out for the all mighty $$$$$$ I see. :wink:


----------



## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

My question of how much he paid the guides is just curiosity. I'm curious if Mossback got paid for it at all, or does he make enough on DVDs from that hunt that he just wanted that part of it?

I guess my main question is why did the guy go with Mossback? Did Mossback approach him? And if so, what was the big incentive for the guy to choose mossback vs. others? Anyway, just curious...

I'm still happy for the guy, and I like seeing the picture of that kind of pig from Utah.


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Does anyone know what he paid the guides? Really, I don't see it as any of my business.


To mossback web site it 5000 dollars for a trophy and then on top of that you got to tip the guides for there help. So im sure you are looking around 6000 depending on how much you tip the guides. I'm sure he tipped them pretty dang good for there work on that buck.


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

tuffluckdriller said:


> My question of how much he paid the guides is just curiosity. I'm curious if Mossback got paid for it at all, or does he make enough on DVDs from that hunt that he just wanted that part of it?
> 
> I guess my main question is why did the guy go with Mossback? Did Mossback approach him? And if so, what was the big incentive for the guy to choose mossback vs. others? Anyway, just curious...
> 
> I'm still happy for the guy, and I like seeing the picture of that kind of pig from Utah.


I'm sure mossback get payed. I have heard that mossback calls this guys up and talk to them. but that all hear say so.Im sure Pro can answer this question for us sent he worked for them. So what about it pro ?


----------



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

I have no idea what he paid them, but I can bet it was a crap load. I have seen what they pay some of their scouters and "finders" . Im sure they contacted him since they knew he paid what he did for the tag, and their track record speaks for itself on why he went with them.


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I have no issue with Moss calling up the guy that buys the Governor's tag. That is smart business. If I'm Moss, I'm calling the guy, buying him dinner, and bringing a photo album with me. Sales is a great part of the sucess of any business.


----------



## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

I have absolutely no issue with that, either. It is definitely good business to try and sell yourself/your business. Curiosity, though, has me wondering if mossback makes more money on the DVD, does he give the hunt away as an incentive for the guy to choose him? Or maybe a discount? Just trying to plan ahead for when I can afford that tag....lol... :roll:


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I dont really mind the fact that he paid for his deer, Or the guy it the spider bull. The only issue I have with it is they sure take alot of credit where credit is not due to them. *Hunting was never meant to be a "team sport". If your not willing or able to do your own leg work, you dont deserve to be out there on the mountain. It is a nice team photo tho *.


I believe you're wrong. Hunting is a hobby that you can share with family and friends. Guiding isn't a team sport. It's a business just like a tour guide, fishing guide, etc. I would never tell my friends and family that they couldn't go hunting with me because I need to do all the leg work. Everyone that loves hunting deserves to be on the mountain unless you have been convicted of a crime.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Hunters back in the 'day' were "team hunters". The natives would have starved if they had hunted alone. I contend it is BOTH natural and desirable to hunt with others.

As for how much did the hunter pay for guide fees, I have no idea, nor do I care. But, most hunters who bid on the Governors tag already have the details mostly worked out with an outfitter BEFORE they bid on a tag. I would suspect there are many reasons such a hunter would book Mossback. They consistently put hunters on amazing animals, they are professional and know how to do their job, and those that enjoy the exposure of being on a DVD get that as well. To the average Joe $5000/$6000 sounds like a lot of money for the outfitter, but when you add up the cost for insurance, permits to guide on public land, gas, food, lodging, that barely covers the costs of putting a hunt together. "Scouters" as STEVO put it, get paid maybe $150-$200 a day, not big money when you add in the equipment they must have that is out of pocket expenses, and I have yet to met a spotter/guide who has gotten rich of doing it.


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

here is Mossback price list.So Pro I can't be wrong.
Here is the link if you want to look at it that way.
http://mossback.com/Home/html/schedule_a_hunt.html
MossBacks Guides & Outfitters 2009 Price list
Deluxe Gold Package Hunt Ratio Duration Cost
Deer 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 5-Days (Archery, Rifle, Muzzleloader) $5,500
Elk** 1 Hunter, 2 Guides 5 Day Rifle, Archery, Muzzleloader $6,500
1 Hunter 2 Guides 9 Days $10,000
Goat 1 Hunter, 2 Guides 5 Days $5,500
Moose 1 Hunter, 2 Guides 6 Days $6,750
Sheep 1 Hunter, 2 Guides 6 $6,750
Antelope 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 3 Days $3,500
Lion 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 5 Days $4,000
Bear 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 5 Days $5,000
Buffalo 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 5 Days $6,000
MossBack's Guides & Outfitters 2009 Price list
Deluxe Gold Package Hunt Ratio Duration Cost 
Deer 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 5-Days (Archery, Rifle, Muzzleloader) $5,500
Elk** 1 Hunter, 2 Guides 5 Day Rifle, Archery, Muzzleloader $6,500
1 Hunter 2 Guides 9 Days $10,000
Goat 1 Hunter, 2 Guides 5 Days $5,500
Moose 1 Hunter, 2 Guides 6 $6,750
Sheep 1 Hunter, 2 Guides 6 Days $6,750
Antelope 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 3 Days $3,500
Lion 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 5 Days $4,000
Bear 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 5 Days $5,000
Buffalo 1 Hunter, 1 Guide 5 Days $6,000

**I edited the post just so that it would fit in one screen by deleting about 75 blank lines-Huge29


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Who said you were wrong? :? I am just saying that those fees will NOT make anyone wealthy. _(O)_


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Who said you were wrong? :? I am just saying that those fees will NOT make anyone wealthy. _(O)_


OK nobody said I was wrong. It making the what his name rich.


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So from that price list, it is roughly $1,000/day for a Mossback hunt. Fair enough. Half that is going into the overhead that Pro is talking about. So for guide service, meals, set up, and all that goes with it, that isn't that bad. Sure, its not what the average guy is going to pay. But then again, if most of us were totally, 100% honest about what hunting costs, it would be a heck of a lot closer to that $1,000/day that we'd like to admit. 

Really, how many of us justify the 3/4 ton diesel 4x4 truck in the name of hunting. And the 5th wheel camper, the two quads, all the camo clothing, tags, and the rest. Arrows at $10-15 each. Paying for gas all year long to drive the diesel truck to work, so we have a good hunting rig for the four days we go. The extra garage to keep it all, or worse yet, a storage unit. Or the extra money that goes through horses in the form of hay should we go that route. Heck, just the taxes and insurance on equipment I see in tons of hunting camps alone costs hundreds per year. But that is different. I guess. :roll: 

And yes, I know there are also many on here that drive a '97 truck that doubles as a work truck, and sleep on the ground and hike (no wheeler/horse) all around and eat squooshed pb&j out of our daypacks. And somewhere in the middle of these two is where most of us are. 

My point is - if we were absolutely, 100% honest with outselves about the cost/opportunity cost of hunting, we'd complain a whole lot less about a guy paying a guide $1,000/day for a premium, 5 star hotel style hunting experience.


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

> My point is - if we were absolutely, 100% honest with outselves about the cost/opportunity cost of hunting, we'd complain a whole lot less about a guy paying a guide $1,000/day for a premium, 5 star hotel style hunting experience


Yer a smart guy Gary :mrgreen:


----------



## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

GaryFish said:


> And yes, I know there are also many on here that drive a '97 truck that doubles as a work truck, and sleep on the ground and hike (no wheeler/horse) all around and eat squooshed pb&j out of our daypacks. And somewhere in the middle of these two is where most of us are.
> 
> 
> 
> > This is way off.... I drive a 98.


----------



## coydog (Jul 24, 2008)

lunker2, im with ya its not a hunt its a trapshoot! No fair chase involved.


----------



## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

Mine is a 95


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

lehi said:


> Mine is a 95





torowy said:


> This is way off.... I drive a 98.


You guys are exempt then. You can complain all you want. -8/-


----------



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Talk about beating a dead horse. Are you guys ever going to stop patting yourselves on the back for some other guy's work? Yes we should all be sooooo grateful that some guy saved Utah's economy - more than the stimulus package you say? - shot some massive deer which is such a blessing for us to look at and now know that Utah produces (produced- shhhh, it's dead) such quality animals, and oh by the way as Jahan generally stated- it's the way it's headed so deal with it. Yes, where would we be without guides? How could we function? And no, guides aren't like missiles that you can direct from space down some poor deer's chimney- right? Mossback is one kick A business, but that's what it is...business. 

For you to celebrate is like saying well...Michael Douglas bagged some welsh lady who was pretty much the standard of hotness in the first Zorro movie so we should celebrate with and for him and America and freedoms rather than bagging her ourselves. - As if we were Douglas or somehow able to be him. Or even that he is so great because he made "the ideal" happen. Yes Pro, you are likely going to end up John Wayne just because you will make the right choices and maybe you've got small feet, some weight around the gut, and a blow hard way of dealing with others. Am I close? When you achieve it all through careful choices, we will reward you as the duke (or maybe the french spelling...douche?) that you truly are and thank you for saving hunting as we know it. So, basically, you're compensating for what you can't get by sucking up to those who do get favors while loving every moment of the game. Not very John Wayne like. 

Gary- politics, "public" services, and money to businesses or special interests from what is viewed as the public good- don't mix well with voters. They like it even more when there isn't total and complete transparency. Even if it's carefully aligned with "good" things.

Why should we be doing backflips that some dude found the buck we've been looking for or scouting. I'm sure there is someone out there who generally had this buck patterned and was hoping to get him next year. Luckily for that guy- fairness won out, and hunting is better off for it now- according to all of you. 

Pro- not everyone is on the path for riches. I work with educators who deal with thousands of Title 1 students (true poverty), and I'm going to tell you- not every child faces the same opportunities. Did you see that period there? Did you? The one at the end of the sentence? The period? That whole- choices could make you anything stuff is a load and you know it. Why didn't you choose the almighty path if it's all about choices? The blessing of capitalism is that we get the best of everything. The curse is that we get the worst- of everything. Pure capitalism is survival of the fittest and that means people get crushed. If you can't compete, you get crushed and you finish last. And guess whose voice is the most quiet? Not jerks who can spend every waking moment on the net. Sometimes they don't even speak english that well, but they have an equal right to hunt (or they could if hunting was equal) if they pay for the tag. Hunting should be a great equalizer IMO where a guy pits himself against the challenge and the meat tastes as sweet no matter how big the horns. I have a friend who can't lay off of deer. Not because he can't get to big ones, but because the kid in him can't lay off the buck in a good circumstance. I know a few guys like that actually, and I'm jealous that they can be so free from the rest of this crap about horn size as I feel it myself. 

What you want others to accept is that rules in hunting should relate just fine and dandy to rules of capitalism. Even though it is a public organization you feel that it is ok to apply free market type rules to it by saing if you can pay you get the best play. I just don't believe in it as you do. When you use "Conservation" it is just a marketing spin as nothing is being conserved except for the right to have a Hogle Zoo type hunt experience. The deer aren't endangered and the Div is the source of the problem- well, the div and their indulgence of trophy hunting attitudes. 

The hunt may have been in the toughest of terrain, but it still had a committee of business friends when this deer was taken. I'll tell you what, I'll be your friend for the right price, though it's gonna cost you. 

It's not the same as a family hunt- give me a break with that logic. Not the same as the kid in Cedar. And the Indians? Are you serious? Maybe the Indians who run the casinos Pro, but not the plains Indians who hunted for their livelihood and perhaps faith. No sir, it was the European Settlers who nearly wiped the herd because of the cheap cost of meat and rails to ship it back east. The Indians....that is a laughable comparison. Me gettum latest racks calendar- ugghhh. Trust me here, I'm mocking Pro, not anyone else. 

Truth be told, I don't really care about this as much as I just wrote :mrgreen: I'm just enjoying a boring Friday where I finally don't have to get up early once this week. I don't like someone playing by rules others don't get to have, but it's not the worst thing --- certainly not the best either. I do actually sincerely believe that it isn't our best foot forward and nothing you've said so far convinces me. I do also sincerely beleive that several of you are jerks to people on this forum just because they think differently than you do. Talk about small compensations. I'm grateful I still get to hunt. Hope my kid can hunt as well - and I absolutely hope that the tide turns and that guides get restricted to private land. It's a great place for them to be in Utah. Why not?


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

:_O=: 
:_O=: :_O=: 
:_O=: :_O=: :_O=:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I have to admit it, steepndeep made me laugh. Thank you! I suppose I should be flattered on your unwavering attention to me, my words, my avatar, my pecker size, etc.. Do I need to turn you in as a stalker? 

I never said, nor suggested, that all are/should be on the path to riches, the point IS we all get to make that choice. Don't give me the liberal psycho babel about how only those born into privileged families get to become wealthy. Is it harder to become wealthy if born into poverty? Of course, but it still happens EVERY day here in America. I also contend there is very little/no "true poverty" in America. You want to see "true poverty" go to Third World Countries and you will see a whole other world of "true poverty". Go play the 'victim' card to someone else, I ain't buying it. People overcome great obstacles and follow their dreams every day of the year here in America, if you are too bitter to see/acknowledge that, you are living in self misery.

Ridicule me all you want, but this hunter did NOTHING wrong, he killed an awesome animal, and he has NOTHING to be ashamed of for doing so.

NOBODY has the 'right' to hunt, if that were the case we wouldn't have to buy hunting licenses. Think about it! :roll:

Why does YOUR definition of what hunting is carry more weight/validity than mine, or jahan's? Isn't that a little presumptuous on your part? And who exactly is being a "jerk" to others on here? You, or me?

Honestly, your attention directed toward me is a little creepy. Maybe you should seek professional help. :mrgreen:


----------



## Seven (Jan 8, 2009)

SteepNDeep said:


> blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah,
> I do also sincerely beleive that several of you are jerks to people on this forum just because they think differently than you do. blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah


Cliff notes for those whose do not understant his logic.


----------



## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

tuffluckdriller said:


> Eliminated from B&C and P&Y because you're in the running for a top spot in there? No, you are right about that. While you're at it, why don't we include the other 90% of the hunting community on here or abroad who are also not nor possibly ever will be in contention specifically because of the high dollar hunting that you, Pro and SFW are promoting that exempts us from ever having a hope of getting to hunt a buck of that caliber without paying huge amounts of money - because in the "general season" areas we are left with (which are being pushed ever closer to joining the LE lists) will likely have such high hunting pressure that it results in low age class deer - OR we'll get lucky once and get drawn after 15+ years for one of the elusive once-in-a-lifetime buck tags for one of these top producing units, at which time we'll then have to contend with payed posse's who will be blocking roads, chasing game away when non-paying hunters are near, or being harrassed by paid thugs who's sole purpose is to follow and frustrate our "fair chase" way of hunting
> 
> It's a GREAT buck, This is true and noone here has contended this point
> 
> ...


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Major congrats to the hunter!

Major congrats to the state for receiving a lot of money to keep up the wildlife habitation projects. We will all benefit from them!

?Was this buck killed on general season public land? If so who said there are no big bucks in Utah!

I dont harbor class envy. I dont get jealous either. I have seen what real poverty looks like. I have been to these third world countries. In these third world countries you wont see big screen tvs, food stamps, or even state funded housing. If you are broke you eat garbage like a dog. You live like a dog.

in fact I am a broke mother if I compare myself to the average American but If I compare myself to the rest of the world I am one rich mother. We have it so dang good in this country, so count your blessings.
This is why I have a hard time with all the negative ungrateful post on these forums.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Major congrats to the hunter!
> 
> Major congrats to the state for receiving a lot of money to keep up the wildlife habitation projects. We will all benefit from them!
> 
> ...


+1

Like SW hunter said go spend sometime in places like Mexico and see people living in small shacks, they have no running water or electricity. They have dirt floors. These people cannot own a firearm. They seem to be happy though. Sometimes when it would rain then their house would wash away so they had to start all over again.

Then you wouldn't be negative about one guy killing one deer on public land in Utah. That one deer's life will benefit a lot of deer's lives in the future.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Major congrats to the hunter!
> >
> > Major congrats to the state for receiving a lot of money to keep up the wildlife habitation projects. We will all benefit from them!
> >
> > ...


coyote I guess I'm slow. I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with my post or agreeing with my post. So please clarify your point for this underedumacated fool. :mrgreen:


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I was agreeing with you. I had to edit my post since I'm underedumcated :lol: :lol:


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I have no problem with guided hunts either. The way I look at it. It's the same as building a house. A few people will build their house with no help at all and some have a few friends and family help out but still do most of the work themselves. They are really proud of what they have completed but do they look down on their neighbor for paying a contractor and a bunch of subs to do all the work because they can afford to? Maybe they just don't know how to work with their hands and really need the help but still appreciate a well build house. I think the same thing can be said about some of these high dollar tag holders. Even if they didn't do all the work, they still appreciate the hard work that was put into finding it. Then the animal is mounted by the best taxidermist around, not just thrown in a shed.


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Yup, its great to have "hunts" where the quarry is bought and paid for before a shot is even fired. 
The "hunt" is actually found hunting for the best guide, hunting for the checkbook, hunting for the right taxidermist, etc.
I guess the "hunt" CAN be fullfilling as long as we all understand in the beginning what "hunt" really means.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> Yup, its great to have "hunts" where the quarry is bought and paid for before a shot is even fired.
> The "hunt" is actually found hunting for the best guide, hunting for the checkbook, hunting for the right taxidermist, etc.
> I guess the "hunt" CAN be fullfilling as long as we all understand in the beginning what "hunt" really means.


onemanband shows his class envy, and ignorance all in one with his statment.
onemanband has bone envy!

they don't purchase the tag knowing they are going to shoot any deer specific deer. If you know anything about how they hunt you will know that the guy with the tag might fly in try and find the buck for a few days. Then when the buck is located they have to make a decision whether to shoot or go find another buck. This might go on for several months.


----------



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Fine. The poor comments were simply responses to Pro and his - go make the right choices crap. Now it's turned into some kind of- I've known and seen poverty contest. Great. Not the point. 

Short version- hunting is a right granted to those who can purchase the permit and it isn't based on class, religion, gender or anything else. Those who can purchase a 100,000 dollar permit get more right than the others. Pro and you all think it is a good system, I'm on the fence. While I think a few high dollar tags are worth considering for the value they bring in, I am far from convinced that it isn't a symptom of the bigger issues for hunting and the future of it. You can't deny that our UDWR is more focused on trophy hunting opportunities than they have ever been. When their stewardship supports interest groups, expos, guiding businesses etc. then I take issue with it. 

I've used guides before :shock:  :shock: and I have no issue with guides. I don't even have issue with Mossback as I stated. I think he runs an awesome business. What bugs me is that the state sets these guys up to run tremendous businesses at the expense of more access and opportunity for all at the cost of yes- not so many easily found freakishly big animals. And in my heart I truly think there is nothing wrong with confining guides to private lands- of which there are plenty, and it keeps them out of influencing the DWR decision makers on "management" issues. 

My beef is that this system of the UDWR and business holding hands isn't in any way diminishing- it's growing. I don't want the future of hunting to be commercialized and the power they give to groups and businesses that benefit from these high dollar tags is tough to rein in even if someone - crazy I know- wanted to. I have nothing against the guy that shot the deer. It's an awesome buck and surely a cool hunt to boot. I can obviously understand why fair chase is questioned and if you can't you're an idiot. I don't like the trophy system one bit, as we're all shortchanging ourselves by continuing down the path. Go read one of those 200 years until I draw XYZ permit threads.

Maybe I am a little sweet on you Pro. I had a hot English teacher who inserted red comments and spelling corrections on, it seemed like, everyone's papers. I wrote crappy stuff just to get one on ones in her office. Hey- are you actually my English teacher?


----------



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Crap. I just re-read that post and it said short version. Well, there are some things I just can't help you out with. Sorry. It is what it is. Though I think I lost an inch or 12 when Pro asked if I was stalking her.


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

That's one beautiful deer. Congrats to whomever.

Geeze, I'm jealous.


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > Yup, its great to have "hunts" where the quarry is bought and paid for before a shot is even fired.
> ...


Bone envy???
.[attachment=0:2o45kv9j]hairfire.gif[/attachment:2o45kv9j]

Bwhaaaaahaaaa. Nope, I quit hunting big game a while back.
You can call it any way you want to, but it's still not hunting in my eyes.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Bwhaaaaahaaaa. Nope, I quit hunting big game a while back.


I'm sorry to hear you would do such a thing, but you have made the draw odds better. :wink:


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> I was agreeing with you. I had to edit my post since I'm underedumcated :lol: :lol:


Is that the state's official opinion on going to the U? They can't really call us idiots, just underedumacated for anyone who attended regardless of which or how many degrees?

Do I really have to go 4 pages back to see what new and deep understanding we have of the evil rich sum beeches or has this thread really just been beating a thrice dead horse killed 15 pages back?


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Bwhaaaaahaaaa. Nope, I quit hunting big game a while back.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry to hear you would do such a thing, but you have made the draw odds better. :wink:


I'm also one of the numbers of dwindling big game hunters that the DWR makes up for by their high dollar tags. How long will it take before the only hunters in the field (if any are left) are made up of those that make high six digit incomes?


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I'm also one of the numbers of dwindling big game hunters that the DWR makes up for by their high dollar tags. How long will it take before the only hunters in the field (if any are left) are made up of those that make high six digit incomes?


I highly doubt that we will ever get to that point. This is only doom and gloom nonsense.


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > I'm also one of the numbers of dwindling big game hunters that the DWR makes up for by their high dollar tags. How long will it take before the only hunters in the field (if any are left) are made up of those that make high six digit incomes?
> 
> 
> I highly doubt that we will ever get to that point. This is only doom and gloom nonsense.


You and others keep telling yourself that. The writing is on the wall and everywhere else.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

News flash for SteepnDeep and 1BandMan, the DWR is not about catering to the "inch" crowd. The Wildlife Board might very well be, but NOT the DWR. Every DWR employee I have talked with is NOT concerned about 'quality'. Their job is to manage Utah's wildlife per the directives set by the WB. I have many beefs with some of the things the DWR does, but blaming them for catering to the "money" guys is showing ignorance at how the game is being played and who is calling the shots. And once again, *ONE* Governors tag is NOT going to be the demise of hunting for the "have nots".

SteepnDeep, I know people who make less than most of us on here, yet he hunts all over the world. How? By being extremely frugal with where he spends his earnings. He lives in a very modest home, drives a beater truck, never eats out, doesn't 'waste' a dime on anything but hunting. Point is, ANYONE can go on ANY type hunt they desire if they put enough effort in to it. Priorities is what is the difference. Someone like Coyoteslayer, who is in a wheelchair and has limited funds, hunts in multiple states every year, kills animals that most only dream of killing, helps other mobile impaired hunters set up similar hunts, because it is what he puts as a top priority. I am NOT trying to make him as some kind of 'super' hunter, just pointing out, excuses are just that, excuses. If you want something, go get it. Sitting around whining about how others get a better deal, and playing a victim, is silly and childish.


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I know people who make less than most of us on here, yet he hunts all over the world. How? By being extremely frugal with where he spends his earnings. He lives in a very modest home, drives a beater truck, never eats out, doesn't 'waste' a dime on anything but hunting. Point is, ANYONE can go on ANY type hunt they desire if they put enough effort in to it. Priorities is what is the difference.


Pro, you have lost your mind. My priorities are my family as well as many other people. I probably do make enough money to hunt 3 or 4 states if i DIDN'T HAVE A LIFE OR KIDS!
Give me a break with your "you could if your priorities were in the right place crap". You and the CS and whoever else are blind. One day you will see where we are headed and yes, even YOU PRO, will not be able to hunt because of what your are condoning.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Lunker, slow down, take a deep breath, and relax a second. I am NOT saying anyone SHOULD change their priorities. I am saying that YOU condemning someone for their priorities is inane. I put my family first as well, that is my point, why should I give a rats behind what someone else decides to spend their time/wealth on if it is LEGAL? The Governors tag is NOT going to end hunting for us 'common folk', to assert that is hyperbole and nonsense. The price of hunting deer/elk in Utah is LESS today than a few years ago, and when you add in inflation, hunting is a better bargain than in a long time. Don't make up BS stories to justify your dislike of people who get to do things you can't. I am sure this hunter goes on trips that you/I can't afford, lets throw the dirty bastage in prison! Who does he think he is, getting to do things most only dream of, oh the horror!

In the real world, this hunter had dumped in excess of $200,000 into the local economy and most of it is now going toward habitat improvement that ALL hunters will benefit from. It sounds noble to say you're looking out for the little guy, but you are NOT.


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

The point is, it SHOULDN'T be legal! It is a crime against all of us as far as i am concerned.

This has been discussed and still i have seen no PROOF that ANY OF THAT MONEY went to the DWR for habitat. Where is physical proof of any of that money that i can drive to andd look at first hand? I think maybe it was spent on NO TRESSPASSING signs and gates to close off more public land. I read that SFW or whatever bogus entity gets like 80% and the DWR gets like 10%??????? Like I said, give me a break with your silly ideas that there is nothing wrong with what is happening with big game hunting( and everything else related). I have a feeling that my 6 yo will not even be able to get a tag of his own when it comes time without getting a loan from the bank. I say we should legalize poaching and cocaine if we are going to continue to let the rich play us like puppets and destroy our hunting future. I am willing to bet this guy and the goon that shot spidey didn't get a sped up heart rate after they killed them??? No different than watching whitetail hunting on the Outdoor Channel. Bait them and call it fair chase.:roll:


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

"One tag, one tag, one tag, one tag, one tag, one tag, one tag, one tag"

Its not just one tag

Yes, the guy who paid for the governers tag and spent another $100,000+ to put back into the local economy is Pro and my hero. I'm so happy, he's so incredibly generous, thougtful, and selfless, to donate this kind of cash to help the sportsman and wildlife of Utah.

I forsee in the very near future several more "hero's" coming to the rescue of the DWR. It's now plumbed in this way for all of these new "hero's" to take all the responsibility for habitat improvement. We should indeed all certainly be greatful and feel blessed by those fortunate enough to do so.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> The point is, it SHOULDN'T be legal! It is a crime against all of us as far as i am concerned.Lunk, my friend, why should it be illegal for someone to pay top dollar for a tag? Most of this money is spent on habitat.
> 
> This has been discussed and still i have seen no PROOF that ANY OF THAT MONEY went to the DWR for habitat. Where is physical proof of any of that money that i can drive to andd look at first hand? I think maybe it was spent on NO TRESSPASSING signs and gates to close off more public land. I read that SFW or whatever bogus entity gets like 80% and the DWR gets like 10%??????? Like I said, give me a break with your silly ideas that there is nothing wrong with what is happening with big game hunting( and everything else related). I have a feeling that my 6 yo will not even be able to get a tag of his own when it comes time without getting a loan from the bank. This is horse chit. The prices of tags arent going up in the future. You are blowing this whole governors tag thing out of proportion, my friend. The governors tag has been sold for years and have you seen tag prices sky rocket during that time.I say we should legalize poaching and cocaine if we are going to continue to let the rich play us like puppets and destroy our hunting future.One buck harvested isnt going to destroy hunting. Even 200 bucks harvested by rich guys isnt going to destroy hunting. I am willing to bet this guy and the goon that shot spidey didn't get a sped up heart rate after they killed them???Why don't you think they did and when did that become a requirment for hunting. No different than watching whitetail hunting on the Outdoor Channel. Bait them and call it fair chase.You like to fish right? Do you ever use a fish finder to locate fish? Do you also bait your hooks or use jigs? Do you consider these fair chase? It's no different than scouting and finding and killing a wild animal.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> *I forsee in the very near future several more "hero's" coming to the rescue of the DWR. *It's now plumbed in this way for all of these new "hero's" to take all the responsibility for habitat improvement. We should indeed all certainly be greatful and feel blessed by those fortunate enough to do so.


I never knew hunting Prophets existed. The Governors tag have been sold for years. We have never moved to the Rich man's sport during that time.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

It's funny how these type threads turn into MUMBO JUMBO JUNK.....

And they would go just fine if just a couple in particular guys didn't continuously
stir the pot............


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

:wink:


----------



## conch (Dec 13, 2009)

I guess I’ll offer my opinion on the subject as well. I’ve noticed in years past when Doyle’s squad takes a buck out of the North end of the state, I give it very little thought. On the years that the team shows up and takes a buck out of my home turf it creates a knot in my stomach. I suppose the old adage, “out of site out of mind could apply.” Whether or not Doyle is a nice guy is irrelevant. With this amount of money at stake I’m certain someone would take the job and follow through. I’m very thankful I don’t make a living this way. It just doesn’t set right with me. I’ll never understand what exactly the wealthy shooter gets out of the whole spectacle. Sure it was an amazing animal. However, I think the key word here is “was.” The old buck is just dead now. Maybe the guy that made the shot enjoys looking at big deer and doesn’t really care about how it was obtained. I don’t blame anyone for this fiasco except for the State of Utah for allowing it to proceed. I know some people rationalize it by saying that the money generated will be put to good use and therefore honor and integrity towards the animal can just be tossed out the window. Yes, I know it’s legal but, really should it be. I find most people I talk to don’t like the program. And then there’s the trickle down economic effect where quite a few individuals capitalize off the agenda. And of course they are all in favor. 
I think a five or ten dollar mandatory habitat stamp would easily replace the almighty approximately two-hundred thousand dollars being raised in the current method. And would remove the animosity the program is creating between sportsmen. I wonder after “administrative” fees how much of this money actually hits the dirt. Is it enough to justify the splitting of sportsmen whom will need to stand together in the future during tough battles with anti-hunting groups? Quite frankly, the whole governor’s tag programs darn near turns me anti.


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> It's funny how these type threads turn into MUMBO JUMBO JUNK.....
> 
> And they would go just fine if just a couple in particular guys didn't continuously
> stir the pot............


I was thinking the same thing! For the mental well being of us all, if you are just wanting to change the inference of what people have posted just to stir the pot or whatever it is you are trying to say....if there is nothing else worthy of discussion, let's just let this dead horse rest in peace. Clearly everyone is still right in their own mind, these are the types of threads that end up getting ugly IMHO. Because there really is no new material to share, just rehash and then make a personal attack..... -)O(-
I really have no personal problem and like the idea that I also have a chance to get a similar tag just for the draw fee. If this guy's money was not in the pool, it would come from us period! Or, just lay off more CO's or DWR staff in general. I don't know that those who complain about the program really realize what it is that they are asking for personally, to really think through the process, you want to add another $2 or $3 to your license fee just to have one more buck in the millions of square miles in the state so you can feel better about a rich guy not getting "my buck?" :lol: :roll:


----------



## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

I agree Huge29 !!!

I also think the sawsman should be flogged for posting this thread....he knew there would be trouble !!!! -~|- -~|-


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

.45 said:


> I agree Huge29 !!!
> 
> I also think the sawsman should be flogged for posting this thread....he knew there would be trouble !!!! -~|- -~|-


I am not sure what a flogging is, but it sure sounds like a pretty bad consequence! :mrgreen: Do you just spray them with a white sticky substance like a tree flocking?


----------



## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation
Wow its really somethng mean!

Oh and -O\__- I need a few more hits


----------



## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Uh....okay, that is kind of rough....

How about we just 'bow & arrow' the sawsman.... <<--O/


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

mikevanwilder said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation
> Wow its really somethng mean!
> 
> Oh and -O\__- I need a few more hits


WOW :shock: .45 must really be mad at sawsman for this whole thread to want that! Apparently it is a real word; I thought he was going for flagging sawsman??


----------



## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

.45 said:


> Uh....okay, that is kind of rough....
> 
> How about we just 'bow & arrow' the sawsman.... <<--O/


OUCH!! arrows hurt!

Tar and feathers maybe... but please no arrows.

On second thought I'd rather be this horse.


----------



## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

sawsman said:


> .45 said:
> 
> 
> > Uh....okay, that is kind of rough....
> ...


 At least this horse isn't getting hit in the rear all the time! :mrgreen:


----------



## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

mikevanwilder said:


> sawsman said:
> 
> 
> > .45 said:
> ...


Exactly! I can lived with bruised ribs, but my butt? no thank you.


----------



## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Okay....no arrows, I guess...  

So.....it's back to flogging....similar to beating a dead horse. 

Lets flog the sawsman !!! Again !!!!


----------



## for fun (Sep 13, 2007)

That is a great buck....as far as the rest to each their own.


----------



## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

3213 views that has to be some kind of record. :roll:


----------



## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> .45 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree Huge29 !!!
> ...


Ask a dolphin, I hear they are prone to it................


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

pkred said:


> 3213 views that has to be some kind of record. :roll:


Hardly, try these:
viewtopic.php?t=10
http://utahwildlife.net/dwr_forum/viewt ... =12&t=6813
http://utahwildlife.net/dwr_forum/viewt ... 12&t=14547


----------



## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

LOL, I stand corrected. Form what little I read it would appear that thoses two posts are of great improtance to the modern world. :roll: Is there a beating a dead horse hall of fame???

Hail the flocking dolphin!


----------



## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

coyoteslayer said:


> > I still say this kind of gang hunting should be eliminated from the B&C and P&Y cause that is definitely not "Fair Chase"
> 
> 
> Never in my wildest dreams (I've had some pretty wild dreams before :lol: ) would I have ever thought that a hunter would be saying this about someone else's hunting experience. UWN was the first time I heard comments like this.
> ...


I applaud you for holding out for what you had set as your standard... having said that, you obviously have standards and views of what "Fair Chase" means that are very different than mine - my definition of "fair chase" is based on the effort of an individual (the guy carrying the tag) working to do everything in their power to find, follow and possibly harvest an animal by their own efforts and resolve - man against beast - not men against beast.

I don't say your ethics or standards are bad and should be done away with, but I do think that kind of "Harvesting" should be given its own category under "Guided Harvests" rather than including all of the animals in the books under the same term... I think the guy who did all that work on his own should be recognized and given due credit for the accomplishment...


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> I don't say your ethics or standards are bad and should be done away with, but I do think that kind of "Harvesting" should be given its own category under "Guided Harvests" rather than including all of the animals in the books under the same term... I think the guy who did all that work on his own should be recognized and given due credit for the accomplishment...


Then start your own record book club, and only allow 'your' type of hunters. For the life of me I do not understand why someone using a guide is "Harvesting", but someone using a local is "DIY". :? How many hunters can truly say they "did ALL the work on his own"? I used to hunt solo, I even did a 3 week hunt in wilderness in Idaho with a bow once. I have NO desire to do that again, maybe I'm not a 'real' hunter but I prefer hunting with others. At least having others in camp, being alone for 3 weeks 24 hours a day taught me a lot about myself, mostly that I like hunting with friends/family. I have killed numerous animals that would easily make the P&Y, and I have guided numerous hunters to B&C animals. I enjoyed each as their own hunt, and I never once felt any of the guided hunters cheated somehow. This myth that keeps being told about the hunter showing up and pulling the trigger happens far more by NON-guided hunters than guided hunters IMHO. IN my younger days I used to think there should be separate categories for animals "harvested" on private land and public land. I have since come to view the record books more as a tribute to the animals than to the hunters, whether it was taken on private/public land, whether or not it was guided/DIY/unguided, or how fat the hunters wallet is.

I have seen "DIY" hunters that had 30+ family/friends in camp helping out. I even had one such hunter tell a client he was 'cheating' for having ONE guide and ONE spotter, explain that one.


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Wholly thread resurection Batman!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

As always Pro, you're right and noone else is allowed to even interject their opinion or to speculate because your's is always going to be the last word.

I agree that the books should be a testament to the awesome animals found on our public lands, but unfortunately there is way too much "business" and "publicity" being done about how those harvests are being "achieved" . . . publicly funded animals being auctioned off to the highest private bidder... 

I got on this forum because I am concerned that with the direction our WB is taking hunting, my kids will never be able to enjoy hunting in Utah like I did when growing up - public land and publicly funded wildlife management for the public benefit. I know it will never be the same, but one can try.

Think of it this way, unless he bucks the trend and gets really lucky, my 9 year old will be older than me before he could even be close to drawing a good elk or deer unit like SJ or Henrys - that's 30 years of applying - and in the mean time, application fees are rising, more and more units are being restricted to LE and general seasons are being cut back to 3 day hunts because the "game farm management" mentality that is taking over in our DWR or he'll have to spend $7-10K to buy a CWMU tag or go to some some banquet where they'll cost even more. Then on top of that he'll be forced to hire a guide in order to even be able to pursue the animal... I've said this before, there is a long term plan that was set in motion several years ago by some high ranking wildlife officials that will limit the average guy right out of the hunting "business".

We'll agree to disagree I guess.


----------



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

I find it funny that people can not see the difference between you/brother/dad/uncle/etc on a hunt and 20 paid headhunters .

Pro, I can see how your vision could be cloudy after youve been on the receiving end of that big money!!! :mrgreen:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> As always Pro, you're right and noone else is allowed to even interject their opinion or to speculate because your's is always going to be the last word. How old are you? You shared your opinion and I shared mine. You are the one that seems bent on having only one view point, I like hearing other/differing points of view, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them or not say why I disagree with them. If you're man enough to share an opinion, you should be man enough to have dissenting opinions. :?
> 
> I agree that the books should be a testament to the awesome animals found on our public lands, but unfortunately there is way too much "business" and "publicity" being done about how those harvests are being "achieved" . . . publicly funded animals being auctioned off to the highest private bidder...
> 
> ...





STEVO said:


> I find it funny that people can not see the difference between you/brother/dad/uncle/etc on a hunt and 20 paid headhunters .
> 
> Pro, I can see how your vision could be cloudy after youve been on the receiving end of that big money!!! :mrgreen:


I disagree STEVO, maybe since I have actually seen both, been involved in both, I am qualified to make an assessment based on FACTS instead of emotions and hearsay. Since I am unable to see the difference, please help me and my blindness out. How is Uncle Elroy having 20+ locals who are friends/family that have lived their whole loves on the unit 'fair chase', but Daddy Warbucks hiring 2-4 guides on the same unit 'unfair' and not worthy of having his animal entered in the record books? :?:


----------



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> How is Uncle Elroy having 20+ locals who are friends/family that have lived their whole loves on the unit 'fair chase',? :?:


Cmon pro, You know as well as I do that that stuff just doesnt happen anymore. Every "local" that knows where the big ones are know they can sell that info to the highest bidder. Why would they *give* that info out? :roll:

Simple, If you are not able to HUNT the animal, you have no business killing it.

How many bottles of whisky did John Wayne have to give to Squanto to show him the buffalo!!!! :mrgreen:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

So STEVO, you're telling me that if your dad/brother/uncle/cousin/best friend drew a tag on a LE unit that you knew inside and out, you wouldn't help but would give all your info to an outfitter. Really? :roll:



STEVO said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > Simple, If you are not able to HUNT the animal, you have no business killing it.
> ...


And how do YOU know whether a hunter was able to "HUNT' or not? And, how is me and another guide helping a client find an animal not "HUNTING", but Uncle Festus with 20+ family/friends scouring the unit is?

You do know that guides and guide services have been around longer than writing instruments, right? The first guides were cavemen, how much more 'traditional' can one get? :shock:


----------



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

-_O- I wonder what the price difference was between a 1000" or a 1500" wooley mamouth



> So STEVO, you're telling me that if your dad/brother/uncle/cousin/best friend drew a tag on a LE unit that you knew inside and out, you wouldn't help but would give all your info to an outfitter. Really?


Thats not at all what im saying. If it was my dad/brother/uncle/cousin/best friend you can bet your ass that they would be interested in the *HUNT* (there is more involved in the HUNT than the kill shot). If my dad /brother / uncle /cousin/best friend told me to find them the biggest elk or deer on that mountain so they could shoot it I would tell them to stick it :?. My dad/brother/uncle/cousin/best friend if they drew the tag they would be down there scouting before their hunt, not depending on the info that somebody else sold them. I can also tell you that my dad/brother/uncle/cousin/best friend would never pay ANYBODY to be down there with them.

Anybody can get straight A's in school if they pay the class nerd to to the work for them. Still doesnt make them smart !!!


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

STEVO said:


> Anybody can get straight A's in school if they pay the class nerd to to the work for them. Still doesnt make them smart !!!


I agree, but if someone is smart enough to hire the nerd to tutor them, should they be shunned and kept from getting scholarships? I have guided HUNDREDS of clients, not once did I have a hunter just show up and pull the trigger, and not do any "work".

As for your family/friends, good on them for never hiring a guide, but your missing the point. If you go help in any way, they are "cheating" just like the hunter from Ohio that pays for a guide in Utah.


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> If you go help in any way, they are "cheating" guide in Utah.


Question pro. So your saying that if your buddy called you and said hey I got a elk down and will you come help me pack it out.Is that cheating ?


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > If you go help in any way, they are "cheating" guide in Utah.
> ...


I don't think hiring a guide is cheating, I am saying I don't see a difference in family/friends helping locate/kill and haul out an elk and someone paying someone to do the SAME thing(s). I am saying, if hiring a guide is "cheating", so is having family/friends help in ANY way.

For the record, I would and I have helped many a friend and even strangers many a time pack out critters. 8) But, I'm one of those who supports "cheating". :twisted:


----------



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

Serious questions here Pro?? Have you shot a bull over 400" or a deer over 200"?(I have never even come close) How many clients have you guided to animals of this caliber?? I am sure that you consider yourself a better "hunter" than 99% of the "clients" that you have guided, right(thats why they hired you)? Why is it that theyre name is in the record book rather than yours? I know for a fact that as a guide you do 90% of the leg work to prepare for the hunt. The ONLY problem I have with these "Clients" is the fact they take credit when the credit is really not due to them. I am not disputing the fact in one bit that these "guides" are excellent hunters, But many times the client isnt. These guys want their name in the book no matter how much money it costs them. I really dont think thats what the founders of these organizations (B&C, SCI, etc) had in mind when it all started.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I have never personally killed a 400" bull or a 200" buck, most due to a lack of being able to acquire a tag that allowed me to. That is the primary reason I started guiding, it allowed me to chase world class animals every year. Surprisingly to you and many others, I do NOT consider myself a better hunter than even half of the hunters I have guided, let alone "99%" of them.  The majority of those I have guided are from the eastern or southern parts of the country who hired me since they couldn't get out to scout the area. Actually, the overwhelming majority of them hired me because I had leases for private land in Colorado, and they paid for a guided hunt for an animal most had never even seen other than on TV, but they were hunters in every sense of the word. Most have killed more deer than I could even dream of killing. For the bulk of those that hired me here in Utah to go after trophy class elk, they hired me for two main reasons: 1)My knowledge of the area and the quality available on the unit. 2)My ability to field judge an animal since few people are able to score animals on the hoof quickly and consistently. I would say less than 5% of those I guided would I consider inept hunters that hired me due to their lack of hunting skills. Of all those I have guided that have taken animals that have qualified for the books I can't think of a single one that I consider myself a better hunter than, and that is the God's honest truth.

When I look at the record books and see animals in there that I was a part of, not an ounce of jealousy/remorse of my name not being there has ever crept in. I take pride in being lucky enough to have shared the moment. I have killed animals that would easily qualify for the record books, but I have yet to enter any of them. In fact, MY trophies are so personal to me that I have yet to publish pictures of animals I have killed. Only people who have been to my house have seen pix or taxied animals hanging on the wall I have killed over the years.


----------



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

Ok, fair enough, But can a person be judged on how good of a hunter they are by how many animals they have killed? Mabey you are just a small piece of their puzzle to becoming a better hunter. If they hired people to show them 65 out of 70 animals they have harvested, does that make them a good hunter. Thats a piece of the pie you will never know about most of them. I agree that there are people out there that are actual hunters, do it for the love of the sport and nothing else, but take a guy that spends over $100,000 (Gov Tag) on a tag, Plus god knows how much on a guide service to find him the record animals, Does he spend any days in Utah before the hunt scouting on his own or is it all by phone calls and video? (Im asking, I really dont know)

Mabey you have the same desires and dreams as the "average hunter". You dream of that day that you will have the chance to get that monster bull or big old buck, something that you can be proud of. You get that buck, you dont need to show it off to anybody, nobody to impress. Man, Ive got those same dreams, But somehow they dont involve six figures $$$$$. It involves a crap load of hard work and alot of luck, Not a crap load of money and a little hard work. Some day I *WILL* get there and it will be a awesome animal I can be proud of where I know I earned it. That bull will mean a thousand times more to me than a world record bull that I knew I bought!!!

I dont think were ever gonna agree on this , but thats ok. Makes for good conversation, right? :mrgreen:


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> dkhntrdstn said:
> 
> 
> > proutdoors said:
> ...


Ok alright answer. Then I guess have cheated a couple times even thou I was not there to see the kill shot. but there to pack the game out after the phone call.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

It does make for good conversation, as long as we all keep it civil, which this thread mostly has been. 8) 

I really don't care how a hunter that I guided became a good/great hunter as long as it was legal. I have learned something about hunting from every hunter I have guided, and being lucky enough to guide so many good/great hunters and spend hundreds of days in the field looking at awesome animals has allowed me to become a better hunter, all while being paid. Does that make me a "cheater"? Not in my eyes. I also dream of one day killing all four species of sheep, the dall, the stone, the rocky, and the desert. On both the dall and the stone I WILL hire a guide, does that make me less of a hunter? I am sure in some "purists" eyes it does., but not in my eyes. Have you ever met and talked with anyone who has bought a Governors tad and asked them why they are willing to spend so much on a hunt? I have, and the reasons vary. Some admit to doing it for their ego, which is what made them successful in business so I don't hold that against them. Others did/do it because they can and so would I if I had the money, I just wouldn't publish the pix. :wink: 

FWIW, the hardest hunt I have been on that wasn't one of 'my' hunts was with the wealthiest hunter I have ever guided. He lives here in Utah and is a good friend of mine now. I talk with him either in person, on the phone, or on Facebook weekly. He bought a Dutton archery tag a few years back, and I was lucky enough to guide him. We hunted for 10 days, with "an easy day" covering 8 miles of tough terrain. He pushed my hard every day, all day. He killed a great bull on the last day of the hunt, I was ready to call it a day, but he insisted we keep after the bull even after 'working' him for 3 hours already. After WE came up with a new game plan we ate some energy bars, downed some water, and went after him. An hour later the coolest kill I have been a part of took place 3 miles from the nearest road. A 18 yard clean pass through double lung shot killed the bull in seconds and mere feet from Cary. After high fives and a few tears by both of us we went to work getting the bull off the mountain. Cary hauled as much meat out as any one involved. As soon as we got to where he had cell service he called his dad. You see, his dad had cancer and Cary wanted to kill a record class bull with a bow with his dad by his side, that is the sole reason he bought the tag. While his dad wasn't there the day he killed, he did spend the first 8 days of the hunt with him and witnessed numerous 300-360 class bulls within 40 yards. Sadly he had to go home for another treatment and wasn't there physically when the hunt came to a close. His dad passed away shortly after that, and Cary is grateful for having such a hunt with his favorite hunting partner. The fact I was blessed enough to be a part of it will stick with me until the day I die. Now this "cheater" just called and asked if I will help his new favorite hunting partner, his 11 year old son, on his turkey hunt this spring. Since he is now a friend, and no longer a client, there will be no guide fees or tips involved. 8)


----------



## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I have learned something about hunting from every hunter I have guided, and being lucky enough to guide so many good/great hunters and spend hundreds of days in the field looking at awesome animals has allowed me to become a better hunter, all while being paid. Does that make me a "cheater"?


Absolutely not!



proutdoors said:


> I also dream of one day killing all four species of sheep, the dall, the stone, the rocky, and the desert. On both the dall and the stone I WILL hire a guide, does that make me less of a hunter?


Again, absolutely not!

Great story and great bull! good on you guys!


----------



## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Pro, from what I can tell from our conversations here on the UWN, you are different than a lot of the guides that the new rules were written for, and you are apparently not the type of guide that I have been referring to...and you're right, I have an opinion and like you I am very likely to keep my opinions because of the positive and negative experiences that brought me to have those perspectives. 

As you said, who doesnt want someone there to enjoy the hunt with? My dad has been right there by my side on all but one of my best trophies - however, I don't feel that there is a single species of game anywhere in our country that a guy couldn't do a little homework on their own and some groundwork just before or even during the hunt and find a quality or even a record book animal without using a guide. I have yet to go on a hunting trip in 30 years where more than one person in our group didn't have a tag in hand or where there was a mob of family scouting and helping a hunter to achieve his harvest.

But, there is a big difference in the 1 on 1 guiding scenario you and Cary enjoyed vs what has been rightfully dubbed as "horn porn" or "posse hunting" like in the picture that started this thread and many others... that kind of guiding being used by some of the big names in the guiding and outfitting industry where the hunter is literally buying a shot at a record book or record breaking animal. 

I'm not speaking negatively of "a" paid guide helping "a" hunter to be able to go into unfamiliar terrain, judge whether an animal as a trophy or not, and then help them to be successful in taking and then packing out that trophy because I understand the logistics of it and the reasoning behind it. 

But having a "head" or "Master" guide system with a large network of guides using radios, helicopters, powered parachutes, (you've heard the rumors and many have been confirmed) and a large posse who is being paid finders fees and bounties to scour and locate and then follow a record book trophy public land animal, then selling the opportunity to hunt that animal to the highest bidder at an auction or banquet. . . that to me is not fair chase of the animal, nor is it fair to the hundreds of guys who've applied patiently for the tag for 15 or more years - many who actually went to the unit and did scout it out regularly for themselves, and then got beat to the trigger by a high paying shooter and his 8-15 spotters... what is fair bout that?

It is about the methods being used and the rationale behind their methods... It is about giving the guy(s) who put in for all those years the chance at an animal he has paid his "dues" for using the system the way it was originally intended. 

You say my prior point was childish, or uneducated, or naive... did you ever go out for and make the starting team for basketball or football just to have the rich kid get the starting position or the Varsity spot because his dad paid for a big screen tv in the coaches lounge or cause his dad was a city councilman who had influence on the school board? It happened to me with basketball two years in a row, and in football my senior year . . . 

I think going on a hunt with a guide would be fun... to have two guys of the same mindset putting the kind of effort you described is a yearly event - no, a long awaited and much anticipated adventure for me, just like it was/is for you to guide someone to that trophy they may not have ever found on their own. We obviously both have a lot of passion for the outdoors, and we both share a respect for the game we're pursuing, we simply have different experiences with it and points of view.
LP


----------

