# Is Colorado a success??



## Elkoholic8

So here is an interesting little bit of info. Yesterday I was researching Hunters Trailhead looking for some info on out of state hunts. I clicked the Coloradro map and looked into alot of their units. Funny thing is that almost every unit is experiencing drastic tag cuts from 2007 through 2011. 
So, I remember "the Don" saying that Colorado was an ideal model of how deer management should be handled. They have nice quality bucks all over, and it's a great hunt. Ok, well if that's the case then why is Colorado's deer population in a decline and why are their tags nuumbers declining also? Could it be that their 30/100 doe ratio isn't working? That can't be right, so it HAS to be something else. Maybe they have more coyotes coming into Colorado??

o-||


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## Old Fudd

THE "DON" What did he say? GONNA MAKE YOU A DEAL YOU CAN"T REFUSE!! The DON is on a money TRIP.! Him and his Buddies!! Should be a remake GODFATHER 4!!!


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## PBH

Elkoholic8 said:


> So, I remember "the Don" saying that Colorado was an ideal model of how deer management should be handled. They have *nice quality bucks all over, and it's a great hunt.* Ok, well if that's the case then why is Colorado's deer population in a decline and why are their tags nuumbers declining also?


Don didsn't say anything about deer herd quality. Just like here in Utah, it has nothing to do with a healthy herd. It has everything to do with "nice quality bucks all over...".

The grass is always greener on the other side -- but once you get to the other side, you realize that it's the same grass with the same problems.


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## Nambaster

The best way to make the buck to doe ratio increase is.... Kill all the does...

Sounds like that is really what Don wants... If he sees a deer it had better be a buck...


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## ntrl_brn_rebel

The grass is much greener in the great state of Colorado IMO.....much greener...until you go, witness the amount of deer it's hard to compare but think what you would like


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## ntrl_brn_rebel

Nambaster said:


> The best way to make the buck to doe ratio increase is.... Kill all the does...


This was Utahs solution on many units a few years ago :lol:


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## bullsnot

Their population models show they have more deer than Utah, so I have no doubt they have better deer hunting...BUT....they are also on the decline and have been for a while now.

Check out this article....anything sound familiar?

http://www.westernhuntingdata.com/articles.php?view=16


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## Mrad

Colorado is light years ahead of Utah when it comes to quality deer hunting. There really is no comparison. They got hammered by the 2007/2008 winter and will rebound faster than any other state affected by winterkill.

I have partaken of the grass on the other side if the hill in Colorado and it is GOOD.

Sure they're struggling with deer issues like all western states, but hands down they offer the best deer hunting.

Until you've experienced it you have no idea what you're talking about or missing! But if you think Utah is so great please stay here and knock yourself out.


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## wyoming2utah

Colorado offers "great" deer hunting because they have high buck/doe ratios....that is also why their herds are dropping like crazy. They have lost more deer in the past 10 years than Utah had at its highest point!


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## jahan

Mrad said:


> Colorado is light years ahead of Utah when it comes to quality deer hunting. There really is no comparison. They got hammered by the 2007/2008 winter and will rebound faster than any other state affected by winterkill.
> 
> I have partaken of the grass on the other side if the hill in Colorado and it is GOOD.
> 
> Sure they're struggling with deer issues like all western states, but hands down they offer the best deer hunting.
> 
> Until you've experienced it you have no idea what you're talking about or missing! But if you think Utah is so great please stay here and knock yourself out.


I hate the comparisons to Colorado, it is apples to oranges. How much more undeveloped, prime deer habitat is there in Colorado vs. Utah? Does Colorado have a huge chunk of their state that is a giant desert? Why is Colorado's deer numbers dropping at such a rapid pace if they are doing everything so well?


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## wyoming2utah

Hmmm...Colorado. A couple things: 
1) The number of deer hunters in Colorado dropped from an average of 185,000 per year in the 80s and early 90s to roughly 90,000 per year from 1999 to 2010. So, that is almost a loss of 100,000 hunters. That must mean that some hunters are either not getting to hunt, or they simply quit hunting altogether.
2) The deer population peaked in the late 80's early 90's at around 800,000 deer in Colorado. In 2006, the estimated deer population was 611,000, in 2007 the estimate for Colorado was 539,000, and in 2008 the estimate was 466,000. Since 2008, the population has hovered around 466,000. Since its peak, Colorado has dropped from around 800,000 deer to 400,000 deer. During this time period, Colorado has also drastically cut tags....and you guys call that success?


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## mikevanwilder

wyoming2utah said:


> Hmmm...Colorado. A couple things:
> 1) The number of deer hunters in Colorado dropped from an average of 185,000 per year in the 80s and early 90s to roughly 90,000 per year from 1999 to 2010. So, that is almost a loss of 100,000 hunters. That must mean that some hunters are either not getting to hunt, or they simply quit hunting altogether.
> 2) The deer population peaked in the late 80's early 90's at around 800,000 deer in Colorado. In 2006, the estimated deer population was 611,000, in 2007 the estimate for Colorado was 539,000, and in 2008 the estimate was 466,000. Since 2008, the population has hovered around 466,000. Since its peak, Colorado has dropped from around 800,000 deer to 400,000 deer. During this time period, Colorado has also drastically cut tags....and you guys call that success?


I was going to post these numbers but you beat me to it. This is actually kinda scary if you think about it utah has what max 300k deer right now at the start of the unit management, Colorado had close to 1 mil now they are down to 460k. :shock: 
If I do my math right, carry the 1 minus 10 divide by 2. That puts Utah herds at roughly 125k in the not so far future. 
But i guess Utah will manage it differently right? I guess since the 125k will be bucks its ok. :roll:


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## MadHunter

I'm telling ya... give it 3 years and I bet you bucks will be squeezing out not 2, not 3 but 4 fawns a piece and they will all be bucks themselves.


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## Elkoholic8

It's funny to see how Colorado was put on this pedestal during the RAC meetings over the past couple years. All we heard from the controloing powers is "oh Colorado is so much better, they are bigger there, there are more bucks there, bla, bla, bla." But when these facts were brought up in front of the RAC's and ESPECIALLY the board they just looked the other way. I don't recall who it was, but someone from the DWR posted these same facts at the board meeting that overall Colorado's deer numbers are falling faster than Utah's. All the board did was ignore the biologists, because they were already set on Don's plan.

I will not argue with any of you that Utah's numbers are not in trouble. But here is what these board members can't/won't understand. There are alot of people who still manage to find bucks every year and we are happy with what is available. I have seen bucks and had oppertunities to harvest a buck every year for the last 10+seasons. I have not harvested every year due sto choices or misses or whatever. The point is there are more people out there that just want to go hunt, than there are who must have a 160" buck in front of them or it is not a good experience. 

The board should split up the tags evenly at 33% per weapon. That way they don't force anyone out of the hunts, they don't lose out on the money from tag sales, and fewer bucks will be taken. That looks like a win win to me. Too bad Don don't see it that way!!!!


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## GaryFish

The flaw in reasoning here is making the correlation between crashing numbers being a result of the system of smaller units. Is it:
Less deer because of smaller units?
or
Smaller units because there are less deer? 

Now, I'm not saying what they are doing in Colorado is any better, or any worse. But the asserted connection of fewer tags therefore equals fewer deer I don't buy. The question to determine if they are successful or not is to ask "where would the deer herds be if they had not gone to smaller units and reduced tag numbers? And that is a question I don't know the answer to. The applicable question to Utah - when the herds crashed in the winter of 92-93 and DWR responded by placing a cap on tags, are the herds better off than if they had not capped the tags?


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## mikevanwilder

Gary I think the numbers where around the 800 to 1 mil mark pre micro units. So the decline has been while it has been in use. Is it the reason for the decline? I believe yes. If its not and its not stopping it then why keep it going?


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## GaryFish

I get what you are saying. But I don't think the herds are crashing BECAUSE of the micro-unit system. I just don't think that the micro-unit system is stopping the crash. But where would the herds be if Colorado had continued the statewide, unlimited sale of tags? Where would our deer herds be now, if tags hadn't been capped after the 92-93 winter? Its kind of like blaming the band aid when it isn't stopping the bleeding in the severed artery. I'm not saying the micro-unit is a success - but is it better than statewide in slowing the bleeding? I don't know the answer to that. Keeping with the analogy though - if this particular band aid isn't working, what will work better? And therein is the biggest question. Life really is about trial an error, and the more variables at play, the harder it becomes to accurately predict the results.


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## Critter

mikevanwilder said:


> Gary I think the numbers where around the 800 to 1 mil mark pre micro units. So the decline has been while it has been in use. Is it the reason for the decline? I believe yes. If its not and its not stopping it then why keep it going?


The Colorado micro units started in 94 or 95 after the winter of 93-94 I believe. Where I am located the Colorado DOW figured that the deer that were hit on the side of the roads numberd over 7 per mile that winter. A area above my home went from wintering over 500 deer to nothing the next year. That winter was a killer.


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## mikevanwilder

True but if you lost more than 50%( colorado) while using one method I think I would change it up. Utah hasn't lost near that % using the method before the units. Just saying though!


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## drsx

Speaking of Colorado, I just recently received an email with this link. No idea when this footage was taken but pretty sweet to see non the less.
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=794wEIbHlDc&vq=large
[youtube:2fh80uv6]http://youtu.be/794wEIbHlDc[/youtube:2fh80uv6]


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## GaryFish

Clearly the band aids applied have not stopped the bleeding. But I'm not sure they have caused it.


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## Critter

mikevanwilder said:


> True but if you lost more than 50%( Colorado) while using one method I think I would change it up. Utah hasn't lost near that % using the method before the units. Just saying though!


What I was pointing out was that the herd numbers dropped just before they went to the micro units and away from the state wide hunt. Also different units are reacting differently to the management. Some are getting better and some are declining.

One other big problem that I see in both Utah and Colorado is the game fences that are going up. Without a way for the animals to get from one side of the road to the other they are going to change their migration routes or get pilled up in a area with either no or very little feed.


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## Mrad

You guys crack me up. Especially since I doubt 99% of the doubters on here have probably never even set foot in Colorado to hunt deer in the last 10 years. 

The deer hunting is better in Colorado. If you don't believe that your head is stuck in the salt flats. I don't put much faith in much dwr published data, but I'd believe colorados numbers long before I'd trust utahs, even if they used the same computer model.

Colorado has its issues for sure. Deer are struggling everywhere, and they aren't immune. They've cut tag numbers. They've been able to act fast and focus on troubled areas through micro management.

You bet I believe Colorado has better habitat, better genetics, and better management. I don't only believe, I know it. I've been there! How bout you???

Colorado has set the bar for mule deer like it or not. o-||


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## mikevanwilder

Mrad I would not disagree that the hunting in colorado is better and yes I've been there. But the numbers Colorado DWR is putting out is that the herd is declining faster than Utahs herds. Now they have/had 3 times the herds size so you wont notice as much, even after losing 50% of the herd its still bigger than utahs at its highest.


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## Mrad

I know their numbers have declined. Faster than Utah...I'd have to believe Utahs numbers-which I don't. I think we're in far worse shape overall than our dwr will admit. 
Colorado seems to tell it like it is. Utah-not so much. Hopefully they'll be held more accountable under the new mgt plan.


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## Treehugnhuntr

Apples and monster trucks.

What indicators or evidences do you have that says Utah is not "telling it like it is" compared to Colorado? And in your mind, what exactly is the motivator behind the UDWR not "telling it like it is"?


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## mikevanwilder

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Apples and monster trucks.
> 
> What indicators or evidences do you have that says Utah is not "telling it like it is" compared to Colorado? And in your mind, what exactly is the motivator behind the UDWR not "telling it like it is"?


+1 What has the DWR done that has led you to believe they aren't giving accurate numbers?
Also I think most of the doom and gloom thoughts have come from the different organizations SFW, MDF and others not the DWR.


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## Mrad

Just an opinion and personal observation. If I hunt a unit in Colorado with 25/100 does I feel like that's what I get. If I hunt a unit in Utah with a reported 15/100 does I'm lucky to see half that. No hard scientific data or study. Just experience and boots on the ground...

Now, if I hunt an LE unit in Utah with a reported 25/100 does, I feel like it's a fairly accurate deal-like Colorado. 

I didn't start the post. Like I said before if you guys think Utah is so great and Colorado sucks, then by all means stay here and enjoy.


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## Packout

Colorado was an incredible place to hunt mule deer until 2008. I had some great hunts there and still enjoy hunting there, but the mule deer hunting in Colorado has declined over the past 3-4 years. Colorado can limit mule deer tags because they allow limitless elk hunting. Is Colorado's mule deer herd more healthy than Utah's? Not really, in my opinion. Is it easier to shoot a mature buck in Colorado? Sometimes.

Comparing Utah to Colorado is tough. Colorado has huge amounts of habitat. Utah has huge amounts of salt flats, salt lakes, and desert. Colorado has a huge amount of Escapement. The private lands mix in Colorado provides safety to many deer. In fact, many great bucks are shot by educated hunters possessing GPS units waiting for bucks to cross from private to public. 

Colorado has some awesome units, but they can be likened to Utah's best units- Unit 21-30 (Utah's Books Cliffs). Gunnison Basin units (Utah's Pauns). Unit 2,10 (Utah's Diamond Mtn). Unit 44 (Utah's Oak Creek). Unit 70 (Utah's Vernon). The Plains units (Utah's CWMU units). Unit 40 (Utah's Delores). Just some examples. Colorado has many low-end units also which rival Utah's low-end for poor deer numbers and small bucks. 

Will I return to CO? Yep. That said, I saw better bucks on my last 2 Utah, Central Region, General hunts than I saw on my last 2 Colorado deer hunts.......


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## ntrl_brn_rebel

Treehugnhuntr said:


> And in your mind, what exactly is the motivator behind the UDWR not "telling it like it is"?


Money, Public Outrage, People Losing their jobs (*not that it is all their fault*).......

The UDWR has done nothing but tell everyone how good it is, things are going great, yada, yada............

Especially areas like Cache, Ogden and so forth.....worst winter in A LOT of years, (both temperatures and snow fall) yet not one emergency feed station, little money spent on highway mortality problems, predator control, browse research (look at there own WMA on a yearly basis for starters)

The numbers *can* be fudged........its no secret........ For instance- I could take a 40 square mile area of winter range, pick the best winter range in that 40 square mile parcel to base all my numbers on for the entire range....

Colorado..they say just how it is....no bullshiz.....Utah likes to slightly touch on it, sugar coat it for the most part.......I guess they are optimistic :lol: Ever notice how every year they do the rifle buck deer opener report.....they always blame the hunting on something......for years it was the drought, then it was to much winter, then it was fog, blah blah
"Hunters should see plenty of young bucks this year" blah blah then its "the weather really effected the hunt this year, making it tough to find any deer" :O•-:

I do agree we are not comparing apples to apples in colorado vs utah

I have no evidence, just spreading bull and my gut feeling


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## Mrad

Utah has pockets of good general deer hunting. The extended archery area is a great success for the most part, and shows what limiting harvest through micro management can produce. Each region has a honey hole or two, but they're getting fewer every year. I've seen entire areas pretty much get whiped out in one season if we get an early snow storm. I've seen pretty much every buck in the top of a few basins get pounded during the muzz hunt. Utah has some good hunting no doubt, but it ain't Colorado. 

Regardless of what we do mule deer herds are going to continue to decline overall-big picture. There will be a few hard fought successes here and there. But the reality is that in a few decades things are going to be a lot different out west. Sad but true.


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## proutdoors

Comparing Utah to Colorado is inane. And yes, I have spent a LOT of time hunting deer/elk in Colorado. There are many reasons CO has more deer and a butt load more elk, and the 'honesty' of the Fish and Game personnel is NOT among them! Habitat is the biggest reason, followed by habitat, and then habitat, and lastly habitat.


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## pheaz

Habitat is the biggest reason, followed by habitat, and then habitat, and lastly habitat.

BINGO if you want a mule deer experience yes hunt Colorado.


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## wyoming2utah

GaryFish said:


> I get what you are saying. But I don't think the herds are crashing BECAUSE of the micro-unit system. I just don't think that the micro-unit system is stopping the crash. But where would the herds be if Colorado had continued the statewide, unlimited sale of tags? Where would our deer herds be now, if tags hadn't been capped after the 92-93 winter? Its kind of like blaming the band aid when it isn't stopping the bleeding in the severed artery. I'm not saying the micro-unit is a success - but is it better than statewide in slowing the bleeding? I don't know the answer to that. Keeping with the analogy though - if this particular band aid isn't working, what will work better? And therein is the biggest question. Life really is about trial an error, and the more variables at play, the harder it becomes to accurately predict the results.


Colorado's herds may not be crashing because of micromanagement, but their crash can certainly be traced back to high buck/doe ratios which are largely a result of massive cuts in tags. Colorado's own studies have shown that limiting tags and increasing buck/doe ratios have lowered fawn production...and after tough winters and severe winter loss, fawn production is what will build your herd. What has holding all those extra bucks in their herd given them, then? Better hunting, yes. But, the flip side, is that those extra bucks are adding fuel to the fire when it comes to losing deer.

So, ask for Utah to do what Colorado is doing, and all you are saying is that you don't give a shizz about the herd. You just want more bucks...


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## Mrad

Great. So it sounds like we agree.

Colorado has better habitat, better genetics, better opportunity, the Broncos, and some sweet John Denver songs.

I like big deer and I like seeing a lot of deer. And I like to hunt every year in a decent unit. I can do that in Colorado. Like so many of you have said, it's hard to compare Colorado to Utah because it's that much better.

I'm done with this horse beating. There's coyotes to be shot! -O\__- -O\__- -8/-


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## Beast

Last winter I made a trip to Rifle Co. to pick up a trailer, and noticed that in the ( don't remember the exact months) fall to spring months, their speed limit drops 10mph. Now I know not everybody follows the speed limit , but does anybody know if its helped on the "Road Kill"? How long have they been doin this? Back in my Rodeo days, I don't recall seeing the signs, ( 90s- early 2000s) I tried to look it up, but could not find anything. Maby it was just from Craig Co. to Rifle, or is it state wide?


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## jahan

Mrad said:


> Great. So it sounds like we agree.
> 
> Colorado has better (more)habitat, better genetics (nope), better opportunity (For elk yes, deer they offer less tags per acre than Utah), the Broncos (I hope your joking) :mrgreen: , and some sweet John Denver songs (Ok, I will give you that)  .
> 
> I like big deer and I like seeing a lot of deer. And I like to hunt every year in a decent unit. I can do that in Colorado. Like so many of you have said, it's hard to compare Colorado to Utah because it's that much better.
> 
> I'm done with this horse beating. There's coyotes to be shot! -O\__- -O\__- -8/-


There is nothing wrong with liking seeing big deer and a lot of them.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel

They do this in many places in winter range beast another reason Colorado is better than Utah and will never compare..

Colorado DOES have better habitat and better opportunity for sure....there is no argument....


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## jahan

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> They do this in many places in winter range beast another reason Colorado is better than Utah and will never compare..
> 
> Colorado DOES have better habitat and better opportunity for sure....there is no argument....


More habitat :mrgreen:


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## bullsnot

Mrad said:


> I don't put much faith in much dwr published data, but I'd believe colorados numbers long before I'd trust utahs, even if they used the same computer model.


They do use the same models and this kind of says it all...how do you even have a conversation with this type of logic?

Having said that here is my personal opinion. I do think the hunting is better in Colorado for tophy hunters, they manage to higher buck to doe ratios. Many hunters have simply quit the sport though and for them the hunting bites or else they wouldn't have quit. Depending on your perspective it could be good or bad.

I would also be hesitant to call Colorados system a failure simply because they have half the mule deer they had 20 or 30 years ago. I would however use that as an argument that micro units are nothing more than warm and fuzzy ideas with no real substance to them. Colorado has many of the same problems that we do with human encroachment, changes in grazing practices, and even fossil fuel exploration and growth.

They like Utah, are probably doing pretty good with game management considering what they have to work with and the challenges that last 20 to 30 years have brought with them. I am hesitant to say Colorado is messing up their deer herd.


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## Mrad

Hands down Colorado has better genetics. 

They have single counties that produce more trophy deer than the entire state of Utah will in any given year. The strip is great, the henries are great, etc... But year in year out, even these Meccas of mule deer units can't compare to the powerhouse units and counties of Colorado. Especially when you consider you can hunt most of these Colorado units almost EVERY year or two. How many strip and henries tags you think you'll draw in a life?

Habitat we all agree on. They win.

Opportunity kicks our butts. Early rifle seasons above timberline, muzz hunts, archery hunts, 3 flipping rifle hunts that go clear into mid November, plains hunts till December, they even have DOE hunts in pretty much every unit.

I give. You guys win. Muley rookies 
I'm not even gonna get into elk.


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## bullsnot

Mrad...I think we are having separate conversations.

I think it's hard to argue that Colorado doesn't have better overall mule deer hunting. I think the draw was made though that they manage "better" than we do. I'm making the argument that they are not doing anything better than we are....they just have more to work with but they are also faces the same problems of losing hunters and mule deer numbers and at a much greater rate than Utah.


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## Mrad

Ok.

Personally I don't think we'll ever see the deer numbers any state had just a few years ago. We can and should be throwing time, effort, and money into habitat, predation, roadkill, etc..., but at some point we have to realize and accept that hunting isn't the same game it use to be and deal with it.


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## bullsnot

Mrad said:


> ..., but at some point we have to realize and accept that hunting isn't the same game it use to be and deal with it.


I agree with you. It will never be the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago.


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## Treehugnhuntr

Mrad said:


> Ok.
> 
> Personally I don't think we'll ever see the deer numbers any state had just a few years ago. We can and should be throwing time, effort, and money into habitat, predation, roadkill, etc..., but at some point we have to realize and accept that hunting isn't the same game it use to be and deal with it.


+1


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