# Reloads



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

So I'm new to reloading, and just set up my new MEC 600Jr the other day. I had some empty hulls on hand from a round of trap I'd shot, plus some empties from an ice hunt last year. I loaded up 3/4oz of #7s with 13.2grains of 20/28 in 28 gauge and headed up the hill. I found some birds, but shot poorly. I managed one, though, so was happy. This was the first time I've ever hunted with this gun, and the first time I've hunted with shells I loaded myself. It was a blast:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... nPoint.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... Chukar.jpg


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Sweet. Welcome to the world of cheaper shells especially for the 410 and 28!


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

Definetly the way to go for 28ga. I've had dozen of those sweet little guns over the years and I can't believe I ever parted with one of them, let alone all of them.

It doesn't take much reloading to get your money back on 28 ga shells. Plus you can get a "custom" load. I always liked 9's in mine for doves up close, but couldn't find anything but "skeet" loads that were kinda spendy. Reloaded some and they worked awesome.

I even put together some #5's for pheasants at one point, but I think that's a touch big, for the tiny barrel. They worked awesome, but I had to measure and pour the shot by hand, because it kept getting caught in the tube.

Congrats on the new addiction.

Later,
Kev


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

kev said:


> Definetly the way to go for 28ga. I've had dozen of those sweet little guns over the years and I can't believe I ever parted with one of them, let alone all of them.
> 
> It doesn't take much reloading to get your money back on 28 ga shells. Plus you can get a "custom" load. I always liked 9's in mine for doves up close, but couldn't find anything but "skeet" loads that were kinda spendy. Reloaded some and they worked awesome.
> 
> ...


I agree, Kevin. New 28 gauge shell prices are crazy. I can load them for ~$4/box, which is less than half the cost of new. Same holds true for 16 gauge, if you're duplicating the premium shells. I was looking over recipes last night. Can you believe 1oz loads at 1500FPS, or 1 1/8oz at 1350FPS??? I think you were asking what you gain with the 16 over the 20 in another thread. The 16 offers much more flexibility. Not as much as a 12, but the 16 will remain my primary upland gauge. I think I need another gun.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Do yourself a favor and stay with the same charge for all your loads. Shoot skeet, doves, pheasants, quail, chukars, whatever with the same charge of powder and same oz of shot. The only thing you ever change is the shot size. That way when you do get used to shooting your gun the lead will never change because the load never changes either. Very important especially with the lighter gauges.


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## FishNaked (Apr 15, 2009)

Nice thinking Tex...that's something most of us would never consider!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

It just makes sense. With those little hulls you're only using a pinch of powder and a smidgen of shot. Might as well load em all hot and get the most bang for your reloading buck.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> It just makes sense. With those little hulls you're only using a pinch of powder and a smidgen of shot. Might as well load em all hot and get the most bang for your reloading buck.


This is a complicated topic, that of pattern efficiency. Increased pressures cause more shot deformation at the bottom of the shot column, which causes fliers that detract from your pattern. So, what you gain in velocity you may lose in density. Also, velocity loss downrange is related to the square of the MV, so a load that's 200FPS faster at the muzzle may be only 100FPS faster at 30 yards downrange. I'm not sold on high velocity loads, and will probably keep my handloads in the 1150FPS to 1250FPS range.

This load seems to work okay at ~1225FPS:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... P_0002.jpg


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

paddler213 said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > It just makes sense. With those little hulls you're only using a pinch of powder and a smidgen of shot. Might as well load em all hot and get the most bang for your reloading buck.
> ...


That post is the quintessential reason why reloading can be so enjoyable. A guy can have whatever he wants, within the realms of sanity and safety, or even beyond if he wishes.

I'm not a huge fan of "big boomers" any more, but I'll take a fast, light payload any day. I personally have become of the opinion that it's better to give up a little bit in payload, to make gains in speed. Personally I like 1 1/8 around 1500fps (steel, that's all I shoot anymore), and then make shot size adjustments from there, as previously suggested by Tex-O-Bob.

Later,
Kev


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I'm not sold on high velocity loads, and will probably keep my handloads in the 1150FPS to 1250FPS range.


Ya, when I said "load em hot" I was just referring to keeping all the loads you shoot in the same velocity as hunting loads. But I understand what you're getting at. It makes no sense to soup up your trap loads and wreck the pattern by having deformity problems due to high presser. My 20 ga hunting load is only going 1180. but that's a 1 1/8 oz load. By contrast, my sporting clays/skeet loads are going the same speed, but it's only a light 7/8 oz charge of 8's. Now for 12, 16, and 20 ga that scenario makes sense, but for the little bores like 28 and 410 I think it makes more sense to stay with that same charge for everything simply because the payload is so small to begin with...


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > I'm not sold on high velocity loads, and will probably keep my handloads in the 1150FPS to 1250FPS range.
> 
> 
> Ya, when I said "load em hot" I was just referring to keeping all the loads you shoot in the same velocity as hunting loads. But I understand what you're getting at. It makes no sense to soup up your trap loads and wreck the pattern by having deformity problems due to high presser. My 20 ga hunting load is only going 1180. but that's a 1 1/8 oz load. By contrast, my sporting clays/skeet loads are going the same speed, but it's only a light 7/8 oz charge of 8's. Now for 12, 16, and 20 ga that scenario makes sense, but for the little bores like 28 and 410 I think it makes more sense to stay with that same charge for everything simply because the payload is so small to begin with...


Makes sense. Although, I'll probably shoot the same loads in each gauge. For instance, I'll shoot 3/4 oz only in 28 gauge, 7/8 oz in 20 gauge. If I want to shoot 1 oz, I'll shoot a 16 gauge. I may shoot 7/8 oz in a 16, and as low as 1 oz in 12 gauge, but not more than 1 1/8 oz in 12 gauge or 1 oz in 16. This strategy is brilliant, as it means I need to buy more guns.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> This strategy is brilliant, as it means I need to buy more guns.


Now wait a minute... -Ov- I think you might be on to something here! More shot, bigger gun! I like it.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > This strategy is brilliant, as it means I need to buy more guns.
> 
> 
> Now wait a minute... -Ov- I think you might be on to something here! More shot, bigger gun! I like it.


Absolutely. And the nice thing is, it's justified in the name of pattern efficiency. Standard loads became that for a reason, they were optimal for the bore diameter. Heavier loads in any gauge require some kind compensation, ie, hardened shot, buffers, etc, to restore some of the pattern efficiency lost due to the increase in shot column length. So, my theory is you need at least 4 gauges of guns, and probably a few in each gauge. You obviously need different barrel lengths, gun weights, etc. Can't believe it has taken me so long to realize this.:mrgreen:


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## InvaderZim (Sep 7, 2007)

Hey the 28 ga forum seems to be down...anybody know whats what?


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

InvaderZim said:


> Hey the 28 ga forum seems to be down...anybody know whats what?


Seems to work now, give it another try. Do you shoot a 28?


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

OK, great Grandpa had only one, needed only one shotgun and with it he made a livin. So why do we *need* all these guns? Ohhhh crap...one of you mods...get this **** threat shut down now before one of our wives gets their hands on it! :O•-:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> OK, great Grandpa had only one, needed only one shotgun and with it he made a livin. So why do we *need* all these guns? Ohhhh crap...one of you mods...get this **** threat shut down now before one of our wives gets their hands on it! :O•-:


Your wife reads this forum? :shock:


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> BPturkeys said:
> 
> 
> > OK, great Grandpa had only one, needed only one shotgun and with it he made a livin. So why do we *need* all these guns? Ohhhh crap...one of you mods...get this **** threat shut down now before one of our wives gets their hands on it! :O•-:
> ...


No, not really, she don't need to, she reads my mind (a quick read)


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

I just had to chime in on this one. *The 28 gauge is the best kept secret in upland hunting!* (and clay shooting, too!) 

I load 13 grains of Alliant Unique, a Fiocchi 209 primer, a Claybuster wad, and 3/4 oz of shot in a AA hull. I shoot about 2500 rounds of this load per year, mostly for skeet. Velocity is around 1200 fps. I don't feel that it needs to be any faster. I load #8 for clay, #7.5 for small birds, and #6 for grouse, phez, & bunnies. I shoot a skeet choke top barrel and an I.C. bottom barrel most of the time. 3/4 of an ounce of shot in sizes #6 and smaller give plenty of pellet count at typical upland hunting distances. You can load a 28 gauge from 1/2 ounce, up to 1 (one) full ounce of shot. This spans the range from .410 to 20 gauge versitility.

*I LOVE THE 28!!! *
To get the gun shooting how you want, I am going to echo the same old advice about patterning your gun with the choke tubes you have. For a 28 ga. I would pattern at 20, 25, 30 yards. Try the #6 shot with a full or mod choke at 35 yards and see what you get. If you get enough of a pattern, use it for pheasants (I do!). If it's too thin, then keep your shots under 30 yards and you will be happy carrying a 28 gauge in the field.

I have never reloaded #7 shot. Someday I will. I think it has to be a good size for the 28.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

The 28 gauge is rated for clean kills on upland game to ~35 yards, as opposed to 45 yards for the 12 gauge. I feel pretty comfortable to 30 yards anyway. Mine is a nice gun, but weighs 6 1/4#. I like that weight in an upland gun, but a 16 gauge should weigh about the same, handle just as well, and offers about 1/3 more payload. IMO, a gun in the 6#-6 1/2#range is nice for upland, and in a SxS, the 16 barrels just feel right in my hands. Gauge doesn't matter so much in an O/U, but my 12 gauge SP II is 7 1/4#, too much to chase chukars with all day. 

With small shot, the 28 has adequate pattern density to provide clean kills. I like the 7s quite a bit, and will stick with them. For pheasants, I'll carry a larger gauge so that 6s won't be too thin out at ~40 yards. I have yet to pattern this gun, but it will be fun to do so.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Keep talkin guys... I'm a readin but I aint so sure I am a buy-in!


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> The 28 gauge is rated for clean kills on upland game to ~35 yards, as opposed to 45 yards for the 12 gauge. I feel pretty comfortable to 30 yards anyway. Mine is a nice gun, but weighs 6 1/4#. I like that weight in an upland gun, but a 16 gauge should weigh about the same, handle just as well, and offers about 1/3 more payload. IMO, a gun in the 6#-6 1/2#range is nice for upland, and in a SxS, the 16 barrels just feel right in my hands. Gauge doesn't matter so much in an O/U, but my 12 gauge SP II is 7 1/4#, too much to chase chukars with all day.
> 
> With small shot, the 28 has adequate pattern density to provide clean kills. I like the 7s quite a bit, and will stick with them. For pheasants, I'll carry a larger gauge so that 6s won't be too thin out at ~40 yards. I have yet to pattern this gun, but it will be fun to do so.


Wait till you see the pattern out of them with the 6 and 7 shot before you rule it out for ditch chickens out to 40 yards or for that fact any upland bird we have short of turkey's. Mine has taken every species of upland here in utah except for ptarmigan and huns but I have never chased them. Also one thing you will see is when you hit a bird square you will notice how hard they go down. The little 3/4 oz load out of the 28 is the most square load I have ever seen with lead shot. If you really want to see it shine try loading your hunting loads with nickle plated 7 shot. The shot because of the nickle coating tends to run half a size larger and do not ball up with feathers like regular lead shot.

Tak very simple solution.......find one and give it a try. Like every one who has accompanied me to the field they become a believer real quick after seeing one in action.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm not going overboard with the 28. It's hard to believe that the pattern efficiency of the 3/4 ounce 28 gauge load is really square, ie, diameter equals length, the same way that the 16 gauge 1 oz load is, just from looking at the wads. The 28 gauge shot cup measures .9", compared to the bore diameter of 0.550, the WAASL (1 oz) 12 gauge shot cup measures .70", with a bore diameter of .729". I don't have any 16 gauge wads on hand, but judging from the 12 SL wad, it will be slightly under square. Not nearly so much as the 28, which looks silly. You'd think that the very long shot column of the 28 would cause lots of deformation and fliers, so the pattern efficiency would suck. I think I'll see what the patterns look like first, but for now will stick to smaller birds at shorter ranges.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

paddler,

I know physics tell us one thing when looking at wads vs bore diameter but we are missing a part of the equation some where. Real world experience has shown different time and time again for me. Birds I center go down as hard or seemingly harder then any other gauge out there. I have never really been a 16 gauge fan so I have never really put the time into it to give an honest opinion. 

Now on the other hand (and I am still looking for the original study link for you) a 3/4 oz load out of a 28 produces a shot string of 3 to 4' While the average 12 bore load with 1 1/8 oz load produces a string length on average of 7 to 10'. 

I keep thinking about going into ballistics and penetration with you as I know you hunt ducks so just a thought. 

Standard duck load now day's in steel is a 1 1/8 oz load of 2, 3, and 4 shot at 1550 fps. As we know a mallard has much thicker feathers and lots of fat to punch through unlike a pheasant, pine hen, or sage hen.

So at 4000', 1550 fps, 1 1/8 oz loads, giving 1.5" of penetration as a standard for killing large ducks with steel 2, 3, and 4 shot.

2 shot pellet count = 140, 40 yard penetration 1.92"
3 shot pellet count = 172, 40 yard penetration 1.67"
4 shot pellet count = 215, 40 yard penetration 1.42"

Now lead 6 and 7 shot at 1200 fps 3/4 oz load

6 shot pellet count = 167, 40 yard penetration 1.7"
7 shot pellet count = 223, 40 yard penetration 1.39"

Not that any of this matters until you give it a try but good luck with your new gun. I am sure in due time you will really like this gun as an upland killer and if you get the desire to hunt geese or swans with it let me know as I have a hevi shot load for it for the big birds and I had a friend just give me a steel reload pushing 5/8 oz of steel at over 1700 fps. I haven't tried the steel load yet but the hevi is beast on short range waterfowl.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks, hamernhonkers, that's interesting stuff. I once had a table showing exterior ballistics for both lead and steel, but lost it and can't find it again. Wish I could find something similar that shows downrange velocity as a function of MV. As I recall, though, going from 1400FPS to 1550FPS with steel 4s yielded only and increase in lethality of 3 yards, from something like 51 to 54 yards. I have been shooting steel 4s for ducks and 3s for geese, both at 1385-1410FPS, for a very long time with excellent results. I hunted waterfowl a couple of times last year with my other 28 O/U, a Beretta SPS, and killed a few ducks with Winchesters Experts, 5/8oz of #6s at 1300FPS. However, I'm not a good enough shot to use it for geese, and steel 6s run out of gas pretty quickly.

Shot stringing is not much of a concern. If you say that a given pellet is traveling ~600FPS at 40 yards, and one shot string is 4' long vs a second one being 8' long, the difference in total travel time for each string to pass the 40 yard line is 4/600, or less than 1/100 of a second. I think most authorites have concluded that the effect of shot stringing is negligible under field conditions. I know I don't give it a second's thought.

If you or anyone else has a good reference for pellet ballistics, I'd love to see it. As for the 16 gauge, IMO it offers the ideal balance between weight, recoil and payload for the uplands. I need a couple more.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

paddler,

You are correct on speed and its effective range increasing minimal with speed increase. I to don't care or feel the need to speed steel up like many now day's. I believe in increasing density while keeping speed down and using smaller shot to gain pellet counts and effective range. Or when I do use steel I just keep my shots to the effective range of the pellet/pattern.

Shot strings on the other hand I still believe do have more of an effect then what many people believe. So I will disagree with most on that subject.

Drop Toasty a pm. He has a great ballistic program for pellet ballistics. It has been a blast using and has almost all currant shot materials available. You can play with speeds, payloads, penetration, energy per pellet, and more. He has it very reasonably priced.

I really hope you enjoy your new gun. If I had the funds there would be many many more 28's added to my collection. One day when I get over my current fetish with the 20 bore and waterfowl I may just have to pick up a nice stacked 16 gauge to try. It sounds like it is a great upland tool.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

I didn't say a stacked 16, as I prefer SxS. I'll be adding at least one, perhaps more to this one:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... 1114-1.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... C_2181.jpg

The 16 gauge is a real sleeper these days. It wasn't always so, but it has lost nothing over the years in terms of an upland tool. The 20 gauge's current greater popularity is not well deserved.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> I didn't say a stacked 16, as I prefer SxS. I'll be adding at least one, perhaps more to this one:
> 
> http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... 1114-1.jpg
> 
> ...


Very beautiful gun!

Sorry I was not implying you had stacked guns I meant a stacked 16 for me as my preference is o/u's 

I have to be honest with ya. I really like the variety of shotgun gauges and one day when I get all my cards in order I would like to add a 8, 16, 24, and 32 to the collection. I would agree with you that for most people the 16 would be a better choice then a 20 and in reality stretching the 20 to 3" is more then likely why its done better then the 16 when the 16 would be a better all around tool. But as it is or was the 12 was just seen as the better all around gun compared to the 16 and why have a 16 when you could have a 12.

Its to bad I think only true wingshooters now day's can understand and enjoy what each bore dose and can do as well as the history behind them. For me it sure is fun having so many different choices each time I go out and shoot. Kind of almost makes it hard to choose some day's :lol:


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

> I would like to add a 8,


If you ever find that 8 gauge let me know. I've been looking for one for years. I have found a few single shots, but I really want a double.

Different guages are a hoot to play with. I have owned them all at one point or another, and the only one I really don't have the desire to own again is the .410 (not really a guage, I guess).

Now a days I'm a little more utilitarian, and tend to specialize instead of diversifiy. But it would be fun to try a few things out again.

Later,
Kev


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

This pretty much sums it up. I can't believe more guys don't demand more 16 gauge guns and ammunition choices from manufacturers:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/16_gauge_wakeman.htm

If Beretta made a 16 gauge O/U, I'd buy one tomorrow.


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