# Time for a new bullet?



## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

As you may know, my daughter just killed her 2nd cow elk with her .308 using a 130gr TTSX. I went with the TTSX because its SD didn't matter when it came to penetration due to the solid copper construction, and the lighter bullet meant lighter recoil. That being said, after inspecting the wound channels of the 2 cows she has shot, I've decided its just not disrupting enough tissue in that sized animal to be a good bullet. Each cow was mortally hit with the first shot, yet required additional shots to quickly dispatch the animal. On each impact and exit wound we found a caliber sized hole. My personal feeling is this bullet is passing through these animals like a hot knife through butter and not doing enough damage. I know the argument can be made that, "she shot the elk, the elk died, the bullet was effective" but I guess I'm looking more for effective alternatives not obvious banter lol. I've considered both the 150gr Partition or Accubond but cant help but wonder if the low SD would create the reverse issue and not penetrate enough. The idea here is to create a larger wound channel but still keep the recoil down to a manageable level for a 130lb young lady.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I know on the Partition that they were designed for deep penetration on elk size animals, just how much is going to depend on how fast you are pushing them. The Accubond is designed for deep penetration also but is suppose to hold together better but I have never shot any at a animal. 

On the TTSX bullets I believe the reason that you see a caliber size exit hole is that the hide will stretch when the bullet hits it on the off side. But if you have ever recovered a TTSX or even a TSX bullet you will see that even with a perfect mushroom on them they are still not much bigger than the actual caliber of the bullet being shot. 

Perhaps I need to start doing a necropsy on the animals that I shoot with the Barnes bullets and take some pictures of what damage that they do, but I never have. I have seen hearts shredded like a magazine through a paper shredder and pieces of lungs that have been destroyed but I never have taken a picture. 

Ideally you want a bullet that has just enough energy to destroy tissue and then stop once it hits the hide on the far side. Any more energy is wasted on the dirt that it hits afterwards.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I have recovered one TTSX and you are correct, it was in a perfect mushroom. However, I would love to see a 2" exit wound rather than a caliber diameter. I would like to push the accubond or partition as close to 2900 fps as possible but her 20" barrel will limit that to some extent. Right now her 130gr TTSX is right at 3000 FPS and could be loaded up to 3150 without to much trouble.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

First off, way to get your daughter out hunting! Personally, I really like the Berger VLD line and have had excellent results with them. The only drawback is that the 155 grain VLD is the smallest Berger offers in .30 caliber.


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## deljoshua (Jul 29, 2013)

Not sure how comparable the kick is to a 130 grain bullet. But, I shoot a 165 grain accubond at 2773 fps from my 308 and the kick isn't a whole lot. I've never shot an animal with that gun/bullet. I have shot animals with a 180 grain accubond from my 300 rum and never needed more than one shot. The penetration is good and have only had one pass through and that was due to the angle of my shot on the animal. I would definitely give the accubond a shot and see what it does.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I use both Partitions and Accubonds. The Partition will perform like any other expanding bullet in soft tissue, holds up real well and often you will find the text book mushroom bullet either in the hide on the opposite shoulder or not at all as it will sometimes just punch through the animal. The Accubond will do the same thing. I prefer the AB for further shooting as it has a higher BC than the Partition. 

Nosler offers a 125 gr bullet in .30 cal. That would be a flat shooting round for sure.


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

We have used the 140 7mm Nosler Accubonds on three elk now. Never caught a single bullet even though they were shot from modest velocities in a 7mm-08. All three dead elk. Exit holes in the neighborhood of 1" with good wound channels when I have taken the time to investigate. So....I would say if you used a 150 Nosler Accubond in that little .308, I think you would have very similar experiences to ours.

Great job and I love the pics.

FH


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

I shoot a 7mm08. I've used Federal Fusions, Nosler Partitions, and Nosler Accubonds. I liked the performance of both the Fusions and Partitions better than the Accubonds. 

I'd go with either of those in 150 gr. over the Accubonds. I wouldn't worry much about SD at ranges below 300-350 yards. You obviously have more than enough energy and penetration as it is. 

Congrats to your daughter. I was almost 30 before I killed my second elk! :smile:


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Bo0YaA said:


> As you may know, my daughter just killed her 2nd cow elk with her .308 using a 130gr TTSX. I went with the TTSX because its SD didn't matter when it came to penetration due to the solid copper construction, and the lighter bullet meant lighter recoil. That being said, after inspecting the wound channels of the 2 cows she has shot, I've decided its just not disrupting enough tissue in that sized animal to be a good bullet. Each cow was mortally hit with the first shot, yet required additional shots to quickly dispatch the animal. On each impact and exit wound we found a caliber sized hole. My personal feeling is this bullet is passing through these animals like a hot knife through butter and not doing enough damage. I know the argument can be made that, "she shot the elk, the elk died, the bullet was effective" but I guess I'm looking more for effective alternatives not obvious banter lol. I've considered both the 150gr Partition or Accubond but cant help but wonder if the low SD would create the reverse issue and not penetrate enough. The idea here is to create a larger wound channel but still keep the recoil down to a manageable level for a 130lb young lady.


There are all sorts of ethical questions on this issue, and how you are going to answer them sort of depends on your own ethics and philosophy.

Maybe put yourself in the position of the elk.

How would you like to die? By being shot repeatedly by a young girl?

This is also an emotional issue, as are all ethics.

Not my problem obviously since I shoot a 200 grain bullet through a 300 RUM rifle. But a young girl cannot possibly handle the recoil of a cannon like that.

I have also noticed that copper bullets suck on big game.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

The TTSX performed as it was designed. It held together and penetrated completely through the animal. We have come to expect (and it should be our hope) that every animal we shoot will immediately fall to the ground and die when we shoot it. After all, that's what happens in the movies. Real life isn't always like that. Sometimes the animals we shoot don't realize they are dead. The only animals that I have shot that were dead right there were hit in the central nervous system. A couple of them required a coup d'grace as well. Even the deer that Karl shot with his beloved 300 RUM and a 200 grain bullet needed a follow up shot after a poor hit. If recoil is the biggest concern, limbsaver recoil pads are very effective at reducing felt recoil. A super premium bullet is not always the best choice in a standard velocity cartridge. The old standards like the Hornady interlock, Remington core lokt and federals in the blue box have worked for decades.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I've switched almost exclusively to Accubonds, when hunting, for every caliber .223-7mm.

I've taken Deer and Elk with .270 and 7mm Accubonds and have yet to recover a bullet. If you want a deep penetrator that still expands enough to create a large exit wound, I'd give them a try. Nosler states that their Partition behaves the same but my rifles shoot the AB better.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

BoOYaH,

Are you dead set on keeping the velocity around 3000fps? Using a Nosler Accubond, I got the following data for the 125g and 150g:

*125g (BC - 0.366)*
Initial velocity - 3000 fps
Initial Energy - 2498 ftlb
MPBR - 275 yards (4.9 in. low)
Velocity @300 yards - 2220 fps 
Energy @ 300 yards - 1368 ftlb

*150g (BC - 0.435)*
Initial velocity - 2800 fps
Initial Energy - 2611 ftlb
MPBR - 250 yards (3.2 in. low)
Velocity @300 yards - 2162 fps 
Energy @ 300 yards - 1556 ftlb

The max point blank range assumes a 200 yard zero. It seems that if you use the 150 grain bullet and back the initial velocity off to 2800 fps you could have better performance out to 300 yards and only a moderate increase of recoil. If you set your initial zero to 250 yards than both would have MPBR of 300 (about 4 in. low) and be about 3 inches high at 150 yards. Might be a good compromise.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

My advice is that if you are not happy with, or doubt the performance of your bullet, then make a change. There are a myriad of available choices and I bet you can find one that will perform like you want. I think that it is most important to have confidence that your equipment and components will perform how you expect every time the trigger is pulled.------SS


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Funny thing, as I was thinking of going with the TTSX for my .308. I've used Accubonds (in 270 WSM) to kill a couple of bears and was pretty impressed with their performance. At this point, I just want to try something different. We'll see how the Barnes group out of my Tikka. If they do well, they may get the nod for next season.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I think I'm going to go ahead and load up some 150gr accubonds. I'm sure she will be able to handle the recoil. If not I will put a 1lb lead bar inside her stock lol.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Just don't tell her, I doubt that she'll feel the difference.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I don't know that I've ever felt the recoil when taking a shot at big game. I notice it at the range but not when buck fever is raging.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The only time that I ever felt any recoil while hunting was when I had a to get a very fine sight picture on a wounded deer in some brush. I got a little too fine and felt the scope just brush my right eyebrow along with the recoil of my rifle. 

But other than that I can shoot my bigger rifles all day long at animals and not feel a thing.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

KineKilla said:


> I don't know that I've ever felt the recoil when taking a shot at big game. I notice it at the range but not when buck fever is raging.


It is during the sighing-in and the practice where the recoil will kill you however.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Karl said:


> There are all sorts of ethical questions on this issue, and how you are going to answer them sort of depends on your own ethics and philosophy.
> 
> Maybe put yourself in the position of the elk.
> 
> ...


:roll:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Karl said:


> But a young girl cannot possibly handle the recoil of a cannon like that.


The 10 year old girl on youtube shooting 300RUM and killing her first mule deer buck might have something to say about that.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Karl said:


> I have also noticed that copper bullets suck on big game.


I have a dozen heads on the wall that were all one shot kills with copper bullets and a couple dozen more that ended up in the freezer with one shot kills from a copper bullet.

The furthest that one has traveled that I have shot with a copper bullet has been about 50 yards.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Firehawk said:


> We have used the 140 7mm Nosler Accubonds on three elk now. Never caught a single bullet even though they were shot from modest velocities in a 7mm-08. All three dead elk. Exit holes in the neighborhood of 1" with good wound channels when I have taken the time to investigate. So....I would say if you used a 150 Nosler Accubond in that little .308, I think you would have very similar experiences to ours.
> 
> Great job and I love the pics.
> 
> FH


What pics??

.


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> What pics??
> 
> .


His other thread showed them. Love seeing the kiddos hunting.
http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/166546-daughter-got-done.html


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Firehawk said:


> His other thread showed them. Love seeing the kiddos hunting.
> http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/166546-daughter-got-done.html


Oh, OK, thanks. I thought there was something wrong with my confuser.

.


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## trackerputnam (Dec 21, 2014)

My daughter shoots cheap 120gr Speer bullets from her 7mm-08. She has taken three cows so far in as many years. The first one was dead on its feet with the first shot, but nervous granddad and father and brother and friend were yelling for a follow up shot, which she took. It feel right where it was standing with the first shot. The bullets are found on opposite side against the skin. Second cow required two shots to put it down because of poor placement due to sever side winds. Third died after taking just a couple of steps after first shot. Again bullet found against skin on far side. 

I like the latest and greatest like anyone, but will stick with my cheap speers. I shoot the same general bullet in all my guns.


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## DUSTY NOGGIN (Feb 27, 2017)

i'd go with the heaviest bullet your caliber/rifle will shoot good 

the old lady has a 338wm and broke and limbsaver , its like shooting a pillow , i guarantee nobody would ever hate shooting it

ive seen it on multiple occasions , if it hits anywhere near the boiler maker , the energy released knocks the wind out of em, as they stand there trying to catch their wind while pumping hydraulics and fall over, on the other hand ive tracked em for 1/4 mile shot by something that i consider small caliber for elk

270 IMO opinion is small, unless you are/take a great shot every time -- if you can shoot em , and drop em quick with smaller calibers, cool keep doing it 

i just prefer, the energy transfer shock factor to not give em a running head start, 

but if you find a new bullet that makes em run toward the truck, im all about it :!::!::!:


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

I have loaded some 155 grain Berger vld. They shoot great and you could load a light recoil round with them. 
Bergers have always been the best for hunting for me. I have tried all the others and have had my best results with the Berger.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Bo0YaA said:


> As you may know, my daughter just killed her 2nd cow elk with her .308 using a 130gr TTSX. I went with the TTSX because its SD didn't matter when it came to penetration due to the solid copper construction, and the lighter bullet meant lighter recoil. That being said, after inspecting the wound channels of the 2 cows she has shot, I've decided its just not disrupting enough tissue in that sized animal to be a good bullet. Each cow was mortally hit with the first shot, yet required additional shots to quickly dispatch the animal. On each impact and exit wound we found a caliber sized hole. My personal feeling is this bullet is passing through these animals like a hot knife through butter and not doing enough damage. I know the argument can be made that, "she shot the elk, the elk died, the bullet was effective" but I guess I'm looking more for effective alternatives not obvious banter lol. I've considered both the 150gr Partition or Accubond but cant help but wonder if the low SD would create the reverse issue and not penetrate enough. The idea here is to create a larger wound channel but still keep the recoil down to a manageable level for a 130lb young lady.


 If you want a Bigger hole , Sierra SBT. Very accurate, but I'd stay with the TTSX.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> I don't know that I've ever felt the recoil when taking a shot at big game. I notice it at the range but not when buck fever is raging.


Yeah, recoil and buck fever is a bad combination. I shot a bull elk one time while smoking and the recoil ran the gun stock into my lit cigarette. It burnt the nice shiny finish on my Rem 700 30-06 BDL. Normally I would take the cigarette out of my mouth and stick it in the bark of a tree kinda like Eric Clapton would do with his guitar. I was using uncrimped jacked-up 150 grain Core-Lokt handloads,. At 50 yards the exit hole in an elk shot with them babies is about the size of your fist.

True story, I'm not making this up, Eric Clapton use to smoke.

.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Bo0YaA
My buddy shoot 165 grain TTSX out of his 30-06, I have participated in 3 of his elk kills and was never impressed with the TTSX exit wound size. Last year I started shooting the 160 grain Accubond out of my 7mm and was fortunate enough to harvest a bull and cow.

I put 3 rounds in each animal at about 80 yards and recovered 3 bullets 2 were nice mushrooms and the third was turned inside out. The three that did exit didn't leave a very big exit hole.

I started pondering bullets and wound channels and came to the conclusion of how is a bullet that mushrooms to say 1/2 or even 3/4 of an inch across its face going to cut a wound channel any bigger then the mushroom diameter or leave a big gaping exit wound? The only way to get a 2" wound channel is shoot a big bullet or hit bone fragmenting the bullet which sends bullet and bone pieces forward cutting a bigger wound channel. We see pics of these gaping exit wounds and hear reports that the heart was shredded to pieces, well a single mushroomed bullet didn't shred an entire heart but more then likely the bullet hit some bone sending multiple pieces of bone and bullet through the heart. When I got to thinking about past kills I had been a part of that had large exit wounds I think most were caused by hitting bone on the off side which help punch a bigger hole.

After much research I have stopped talking crud about the TTSX bullets as I didn't see any better performance out of the Accubond bullets and I think my wound and exit size expectations are off base. If anything recovering 3 of 6 bullets from an 80 yard shot kind of make me wonder just how good the Accubonds are penetrating. We have never recovered a TTSX.


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## trackerputnam (Dec 21, 2014)

I love recovering bullets. That way I know the bullet left all its energy in the animal and that I or whoever was shooting did not take more abuse than they had to. Also I love hamburger in the fridge, not hanging out the side of my elk. 

I personally have never lost an elk shot, whether by myself or family or by a client, but I got my nickname, "tracker" when guiding in Wyoming and had a client flinch so bad and made a very bad shot on a nice bull. It was to be expected. This group from Florida all had brand new 300 Whetherbys and all but one carried nice little moon over their scope eye. They were scared to death by those big guns. Most had never shot more than a .223 back in Florida. Anyway it was getting dark as this guy made the shot and camp was nearby, so I sent him back and then went to find the elk. The next evening after spending the night out with only a saddle blanket and fire, my little .243 with 85 gr speers finished what the .300 cannon had started. Point is, shoot what you shoot well is more important than what you shoot it with.


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