# Bear Attack



## APD

https://www.ksl.com/article/46391606/wyoming-guide-dead-after-bear-attack-florida-hunter-hurt

prayers to the guides family and friends

jeff's link below has the details


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## CPAjeff

Man, what a horrible deal. This article has a little bit more information on the attack:

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/this_just_in/article_fb78dcc0-94a9-5dab-804d-23991c46f90c.html

Sad deal for sure - prayers to the family and friends.


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## Ray

It sounds as though the client just took off, leaving the guide to fend for himself.

Who in the hell tosses a gun and leaves? 
Shoot the **** thing. you don't need to risk your life, but don't throw a weapon in the dirt and leave.


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## johnnycake

Ray said:


> It sounds as though the client just took off, leaving the guide to fend for himself.
> 
> Who in the hell tosses a gun and leaves?
> Shoot the **** thing. you don't need to risk your life, but don't throw a weapon in the dirt and leave.


I think that's some pretty bold talk from somebody who wasn't there. It would be pretty easy to hit somebody while trying to shoot a bear during an attack.


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## Lone_Hunter

From the article:
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/this_just_in/article_fb78dcc0-94a9-5dab-804d-23991c46f90c.html



> Chubon told investigators that he threw a pistol to Uptain before successfully fleeing and phoning authorities. Initial reports indicate that the second bear was present at the time of the attack, but did not engage either Chubon or Uptain.


Yeah we were not there. For all we know, the outfitter was taking responsibility for his clients safety and told him to get out of there.


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## Ray

johnnycake said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds as though the client just took off, leaving the guide to fend for himself.
> 
> Who in the hell tosses a gun and leaves?
> Shoot the **** thing. you don't need to risk your life, but don't throw a weapon in the dirt and leave.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's some pretty bold talk from somebody who wasn't there. It would be pretty easy to hit somebody while trying to shoot a bear during an attack.
Click to expand...

Read the report, it's pretty well written out. I'd rather take the risk of potentially hitting someone and do something then run off and let the events unfold the way they did.

You mean to tell me that if you're getting mauled by a grizzly, you don't want people to try to shoot it in fear you might get shot?

Get real.


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## johnnycake

Ray said:


> Read the report, it's pretty well written out. I'd rather take the risk of potentially hitting someone and do something then run off and let the events unfold the way they did.
> 
> You mean to tell me that if you're getting mauled by a grizzly, you don't want people to try to shoot it in fear you might get shot?
> 
> Get real.


You mean to tell me your ok with making an already bad situation worse? Got it.

What experience do you have with bears, black or grizzly? Armchair quarterbacking based on a couple of news articles is pretty easy to make assertions as to what you'd do. But when faced with 8' or teeth and claws, it is amazing how many people lose their heads--even when the bear couldn't care less that they are nearby.

People get mauled by bears every year and live to tell the tale even if nobody shoots the bear during the altercation. From the sounds of it, the client was also pretty badly hurt. I help teach a CCW class and frankly, it is appalling how terrible most of these people are are at shooting their guns in a controlled, ideal setting. I cringe at how many people I see carrying handguns around up here in Alaska, knowing that most of them couldn't hit a parked Buick, let alone a charging bear. Slinging lead into a hairy situation isn't always going to magically improve it. Maybe the guide was screaming to toss him the gun, or "don't shoot me". Or maybe not. Maybe the client was overwhelmed by the adrenaline pounding his system, compounded by the bites he undertook, and he couldn't do anything else. I am pretty sure that he is going to spend the rest of his life second guessing every millisecond of that moment, and will have plenty of self inflicted guilt. Who are we to add to that burden?

Like I said, we weren't there. We cannot even begin to understand what happened and what was the right decision.


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## muddydogs

I would like to hear the whole real story one of these days. I just can't imagine having a pistol in my hands and not using it. Last thing I would ever want to do is give up the firearm in a situation like this. I'm not passing judgement and we will probably never know what really went down.


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## Critter

Wasn't there a bear attack a few years ago where a kid decided to try and shoot the bear but ended up shooting the person that was being attacked? 

It is always interesting is what you can think of doing after the fact and it is all done and over.


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## Ray

johnnycake said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read the report, it's pretty well written out. I'd rather take the risk of potentially hitting someone and do something then run off and let the events unfold the way they did.
> 
> You mean to tell me that if you're getting mauled by a grizzly, you don't want people to try to shoot it in fear you might get shot?
> 
> Get real.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean to tell me your ok with making an already bad situation worse? Got it.
> 
> What experience do you have with bears, black or grizzly? Armchair quarterbacking based on a couple of news articles is pretty easy to make assertions as to what you'd do. But when faced with 8' or teeth and claws, it is amazing how many people lose their heads--even when the bear couldn't care less that they are nearby.
> 
> People get mauled by bears every year and live to tell the tale even if nobody shoots the bear during the altercation. From the sounds of it, the client was also pretty badly hurt. I help teach a CCW class and frankly, it is appalling how terrible most of these people are are at shooting their guns in a controlled, ideal setting. I cringe at how many people I see carrying handguns around up here in Alaska, knowing that most of them couldn't hit a parked Buick, let alone a charging bear. Slinging lead into a hairy situation isn't always going to magically improve it. Maybe the guide was screaming to toss him the gun, or "don't shoot me". Or maybe not. Maybe the client was overwhelmed by the adrenaline pounding his system, compounded by the bites he undertook, and he couldn't do anything else. I am pretty sure that he is going to spend the rest of his life second guessing every millisecond of that moment, and will have plenty of self inflicted guilt. Who are we to add to that burden?
> 
> Like I said, we weren't there. We cannot even begin to understand what happened and what was the right decision.
Click to expand...

A lot actually, I grew up in Butte and have had several run ins with bears. I also have two uncles that live in Alaska I get to visit every few years. One in Skagway and the other in Wasilla. Just because I live in Utah doesn't mean my experiences are limited to this state.

I'm not "armchair quarterbacking" $hit.. I know myself well enough to know how I'd handle myself if put in certain situations. I have more trigger time than most and trust in my abilities. I'm not some inexperienced dumbas$you teach.

You'd have to be a real dumbas$ to stand there with a weapon in your hand watching someone get mauled and not do anything.

What's your point? When people do get mauled they either die or become disfigured or have some life changing injury. More people get shot by guns and live to tell about it without life changing injuries than people getting mauled by a grizzly.

Kay people, if you're ever with Johnny here and he happens to get mauled just let things run their course, even if you're armed. He'd rather get eaten alive than potentially have a bullet hit him.


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## Ray

I'm not trying trying to be a d!ck but that's honestly the dumbest [email protected] thing I've ever heard. I guarantee if you're getting mauled the last thing you're going to think about is potentially getting hit by a bullet, you're just going to want the bear off of you.

The odds of you accidentally getting shot are drastically lower than walking away from a mauling unscathed.


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## Fowlmouth

I would think an experienced guide would have had a sidearm of his own, or bear spray in an area that is known for having bears. Especially since they were going in to find a dead elk. Sad, scary and tragic story to say the least.


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## Critter

There is a thread on another forum that is saying that it was the guides gun and not the hunters. 

Lot of information that we don't have and may never have. All we are doing is speculating on what happened from 3rd hand sources.


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## neverdrawn

I believe the best thing at this juncture is to pray for the family, donate to the gofundme account if you desire, and hope we all never have to know what we would do under the circumstances because it never happens to us. It's sad when a tragedy brings out hostility in any of us.
So, so sad for his children and family. Hopefully the community and extended family steps up and supports them in every way possible.


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## stillhunterman

update

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/article_7bb8d117-4a3d-5843-b1eb-0780d6e4f670.html

https://buckrail.com/death-of-mark-uptain-by-grizzly-what-we-now-know/


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## 30-06-hunter

We have family in Jackson who have come back in to retrieve an animal only to find it buried and a grizzly guarding over it, they tried to chase it off only to end up leaving the carcass and cutting their losses, but at least they knew the grizzly was there as they came up on it. They were well armed and still had to walk away, I can't even imagine what these other guys went through in the heat of the moment. Just pray for the family and hope for the best.


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## johnnycake

You may not be trying, Ray, but you're certainly succeeding. As I stated from the beginning, nobody should second guess what actions were taken, unless they were there.


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## KalebReese

I don’t have any experience with bears but If I was getting mauled by one and I didn’t have a weapon, I would tell a blind man to take the shot.


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## Lone_Hunter

stillhunterman said:


> update
> 
> https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/article_7bb8d117-4a3d-5843-b1eb-0780d6e4f670.html
> 
> https://buckrail.com/death-of-mark-uptain-by-grizzly-what-we-now-know/


From articles:


> Chubon, who was airlifted out of the Teton Wildness with leg, chest and arm injuries, reported to investigators that of the two grizzlies involved, only one was the aggressor. The Florida resident, who flew back home Saturday, told authorities that he was unable to fire a shot from a handgun he retrieved during the attack, but he threw the firearm to Uptain before departing the scene.
> 
> Late Saturday, Hovinga declined to discuss evidence collected at the scene, but he did say that bear-deterrent pepper spray was among the things the guide and client possessed. He said he "didn't know" if the handgun was with Uptain's remains. The gun was not recovered immediately around where the attack took place, at the site of an elk Chubon had struck with an arrow Thursday. The guide and client did not locate and start to retrieve the elk until early the next afternoon.





> After interviews and visiting the scene, Undersheriff Matt Carr said Uptain was rushed by a grizzly bear in "a very aggressive manner."
> "They were field dressing this elk. They were in thick timber and this bear was on them very quickly," Carr said. "There was apparently no time to react."
> 
> Carr said bear spray was found onscene but declined to comment on whether it was deployed. A Glock handgun belonging to Uptain was also recovered at the scene. Carr would not divulge whether that weapon had been fired, citing the ongoing investigation, but added initial indications pointed to it not ever being used.





> After the attack, Chubon was able to climb up to a ridgeline in order to make a 911 call. Carr said the call came in clear from an area he was surprised a signal could even be obtained.


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## Vanilla

Ray said:


> The odds of you accidentally getting shot are drastically lower than walking away from a mauling unscathed.


I'd be willing to take a look at anything you've got to support such a strong assertion.

And because a man is dead and this is actually a tragic situation, I'll leave the rest of the crap that was written alone. A little discretion goes a long ways at times.

Prayers to all involved and all those left behind. A very sad story here, indeed.


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## Ray

Vanilla said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> The odds of you accidentally getting shot are drastically lower than walking away from a mauling unscathed.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be willing to take a look at anything you've got to support such a strong assertion.
> 
> And because a man is dead and this is actually a tragic situation, I'll leave the rest of the crap that was written alone. A little discretion goes a long ways at times.
> 
> Prayers to all involved and all those left behind. A very sad story here, indeed.
Click to expand...

It's common sense. All you have to do is think it through logically. All you guys were able to drum up is one instance of a person accidentally getting shot. One. sure, it's probably happened a couple other times but statistically speaking it's going to be low.

Odds of getting mauled are low already, so the odds of getting shot while getting mauled will obviously be lower. Don't be an idiot, use that brain of yours.


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## 7mm Reloaded

KalebReese said:


> I don't have any experience with bears but If I was getting mauled by one and I didn't have a weapon, I would tell a blind man to take the shot.


 If I was being mauled I'd want someone with a BIG can of pepper spray. Odds are pretty high in Alaska and B.C. Who's to say that someone shooting it wont make it more mad and kill you instead of it just showing you who's boss?


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## Critter

On my grizzly hunt in British Colombia my guide was packing a .44 magnum. I asked him what he planned on doing with it if attacked. He said that he was going to stuff it into the bears mouth and pull the trigger 6 times. 

This man had a plan of action. From all the reports that I have read this one in Wyoming really didn't have a plan other than the guide giving up his weapon and asking the hunter to watch for bears. 

Even if he was working on the elk he should never of given up his weapon to what we read was a inexperienced person. But then that is all we are doing is reading third hand reports.


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## Ray

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

Here's a list of all fatal bear attacks in the USA going all the way back to 1784. 
Go ahead and take a guess at how many of them were shot while being mauled????


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## wyoming2utah

I remember when I was in middle school back in the early 80s and a black bear had been caught in a bear trap by the DWR around Milt's Stage Stop. My dad took me up to look at the bear and explained that the bear had been shot six times prior to being trapped. When we reached the restaurant, I could tell before we even got up to the trap that the bear was really pissed. As I looked inside the trap, I will never forget the look on that bear's face and the furor it possessed. Though it had been shot six times, that bear was expected to recover fully from the injuries. That was black bear.

Are you certain that a bear shot with a handgun isn't only going to get more mad? Only the perfectly placed shot will kill it...and only in time.


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## Ray

There's a lot of unknown variables there. what was it shot six times with? Can you say with absolute certainty that if you shoot a bear, even if it's able to recover from it's injuries that it won't stop the mauling?


Can you get shot? sure. can it piss the bear off more? sure. All I know is if I'm on the receiving end of a mauling and someone has the ability to shoot, I hope to god they do.


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## wyoming2utah

Ray, the variables are numerous. But, let's make things really clear. That bear will have to be shot more than once to have any real impact on it. And, the more times you shoot at it as it is mauling someone the more likely you are to shoot that person being mauled. 
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/game-changers/how-pick-right-sidearm-backup-bear-protection

https://www.ksl.com/?nid=1012&sid=19497732&comments=true&page=1


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## Ray

Again, going over the history of maulings in the U.S. the odds of shooting a person while they're being mauled are incredibly low, low enough for me to justify shooting a bear in the act of mauling.


Let's just leave it at this, if I see a mauling happening (which I probably never will) and I'm armed, I'm shooting.


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## wyoming2utah

Ok, and the results might be these:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-during-grizzly-attack-idUSTRE78N0H220110924

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-accidentally-shot-wife-bear-attack-article-1.2477001

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/man-attacked-bear-then-shot-friend-n225601

Personally, I could much easier live with the fact that my friend was mauled and killed by a bear than if I had killed him with my own gun.

Oh...and, by the way, it took me all of two minutes find these recent examples. I'm sure there are probably more.


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## Vanilla

Ray said:


> It's common sense. All you have to do is think it through logically. All you guys were able to drum up is one instance of a person accidentally getting shot. One. sure, it's probably happened a couple other times but statistically speaking it's going to be low.
> 
> Odds of getting mauled are low already, so the odds of getting shot while getting mauled will obviously be lower. Don't be an idiot, use that brain of yours.


So we're going to go there, huh. Well, okay, I can go there.

First of all, I didn't drum up anything, not even one. I also have not made any assertions about how things should go or not. I'm simply asking you to back up your really strong claim you made with some facts. So, don't be an idiot. Use that brain of yours. Back up your claims, or quit being such a putz. Either way, I don't care. But pick one or the other.


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## wyogoob

This is my favorite thread.


uh...top of the page
.


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## KalebReese

wyoming2utah said:


> Ok, and the results might be these:
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...n-during-grizzly-attack-idUSTRE78N0H220110924
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/man-accidentally-shot-wife-bear-attack-article-1.2477001
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/man-attacked-bear-then-shot-friend-n225601
> 
> Personally, I could much easier live with the fact that my friend was mauled and killed by a bear than if I had killed him with my own gun.
> 
> Oh...and, by the way, it took me all of two minutes find these recent examples. I'm sure there are probably more.


Personally I couldn't live with myself if I sat there and did nothing while they are being attacked.


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## Critter

Could you live with yourself if you took a shot and killed the person being mauled? How about if it was your wife, one of your kids, or parents?


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## wyoming2utah

KalebReese said:


> Personally I couldn't live with myself if I sat there and did nothing while they are being attacked.


Me either...that's why I wouldn't sit there and do nothing. But, I sure as hell am not dumb enough to try and shoot the bear in that kind of bedlam!


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## High Desert Elk

I once discharged a canister of bear spray intentionally because the safety clip got lost and I was conducting an experiment (ok, I was curious to see what all the bear spray hub-bub was all about). I found out all right. 

The spray seemed to have an oil base which caused it to "stick" to the ground where I sprayed and left what looked like an oily residue. The "pepper mist" permeated the air, and what little afterspary lingered immediately caused your eyes to water and ensued coughing with some difficulty breathing.

The spray did not easily wash off, and it took a lot of diluting with water sprayed on the ground to make the area half way tolerable.

The moral of the story: I don't care what you are or what kind of tough animal you think you are (Mr. or Mrs. Grizzly), an attack cannot continue if you cannot see, breath, and something that burns like no tomorrow is on you.

And as the great philosopher Forrest Gump stated "That's all I got to say about that".


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## High Desert Elk

...maybe not- the discharged spray was under pressure from inside the can and went an easy 30 feet strong and wide.


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## wyogoob

High Desert Elk said:


> ...maybe not- the discharged spray was under pressure from inside the can and went an easy 30 feet strong and wide.


Yeah, I blew an old one of mine off too. Went about the same distance.
.


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## RemingtonCountry

See, you guys were lucky and purposefully discharged your bear spray.. I sat down and heard a "PFFFFFF" go off in one of my pockets in my pack, so I opened it to see what it was and boy was it a bad decision... Just a public FYI, don't take a whiz within three hours of touching bear spray......:O//:


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## wyoming2utah

High Desert Elk said:


> I once discharged a canister of bear spray intentionally because the safety clip got lost and I was conducting an experiment (ok, I was curious to see what all the bear spray hub-bub was all about). I found out all right.
> 
> The spray seemed to have an oil base which caused it to "stick" to the ground where I sprayed and left what looked like an oily residue. The "pepper mist" permeated the air, and what little afterspary lingered immediately caused your eyes to water and ensued coughing with some difficulty breathing.
> 
> The spray did not easily wash off, and it took a lot of diluting with water sprayed on the ground to make the area half way tolerable.
> 
> The moral of the story: I don't care what you are or what kind of tough animal you think you are (Mr. or Mrs. Grizzly), an attack cannot continue if you cannot see, breath, and something that burns like no tomorrow is on you.
> 
> And as the great philosopher Forrest Gump stated "That's all I got to say about that".


The link I posted earlier says that "Smith and his colleagues analyzed 269 incidents of bear-human conflicts in Alaska for the study, appearing in the forthcoming issue of the Journal of Wildlife Management. Those incidents involved 444 people and 357 bears, 300 of which were brown bears.

The researchers found no statistical difference in the outcome (no injury, injury or fatality) when they compared those who used their gun in an aggressive encounter (229 instances) to those who had firearms but did not use them (40 instances).

In a 2008 study, Smith found that bear spray effectively halted aggressive bear encounters in 92 percent of the cases."

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2012-03-gun-encounters-doesnt-safer.html#jCp

Bottom line is that bear spray is more effective than a gun.


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## KalebReese

Critter said:


> Could you live with yourself if you took a shot and killed the person being mauled? How about if it was your wife, one of your kids, or parents?





wyoming2utah said:


> KalebReese said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I couldn't live with myself if I sat there and did nothing while they are being attacked.
> 
> 
> 
> Me either...that's why I wouldn't sit there and do nothing. But, I sure as hell am not dumb enough to try and shoot the bear in that kind of bedlam!
Click to expand...

So hypothetical here, your friend is being attacked by a bear and you only have a gun. What do you do if you aren't going to use the gun?


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## Critter

That is a question that will have to be answered when and if it ever happens which I hope it never does.


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## MadHunter

Ray said:


> It's common sense. All you have to do is think it through logically.


This comment almost leaves me speechless. When your life is in danger logic is something that goes out the windows immediately along with common sense. Your behavior and thought processes become primeval.

I don't know you Ray. But I do know human nature. I've seen parents run and leave their children to save their own skin when facing danger. I've read case studies of people doing the most inhumane things just to save themselves.

What I see from your comments and subsequent comments is that you are not a person that will easily admit he could be wrong...the perfect definition of an armchair quarterback. You weren't there and neither was I so, we should not make any assertions as to what should have happened.

This is a terrible tragedy and it can happen to any of us that spend time in the field. My prayers tonight will be for the Uptain and Chubon families.


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## Vanilla

wyoming2utah said:


> The link I posted earlier says that "Smith and his colleagues analyzed 269 incidents of bear-human conflicts in Alaska for the study, appearing in the forthcoming issue of the Journal of Wildlife Management. Those incidents involved 444 people and 357 bears, 300 of which were brown bears.
> 
> The researchers found no statistical difference in the outcome (no injury, injury or fatality) when they compared those who used their gun in an aggressive encounter (229 instances) to those who had firearms but did not use them (40 instances).
> 
> In a 2008 study, Smith found that bear spray effectively halted aggressive bear encounters in 92 percent of the cases."
> 
> Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2012-03-gun-encounters-doesnt-safer.html#jCp
> 
> Bottom line is that bear spray is more effective than a gun.


This...THIS is how you back up a strong assertion with facts. Not calling someone an idiot and continuing to not support your own assertion with anything other than actual facts.

As for the question about what would you do if all you had was a gun? I'd never be in grizzly country with only a gun. If I am not prepared, I won't go.


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## Ray

Critter said:


> Could you live with yourself if you took a shot and killed the person being mauled? How about if it was your wife, one of your kids, or parents?


I sure as sh!it wouldn't sit there watching the events unfold, especially if it were my wife or kids.


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## Fowlmouth

https://buckrail.com/injured-hunting-client-says-guide-saved-his-life-services-for-uptain-wednesday/


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## Vanilla

I have a feeling that when all the details come out, I'm going to be glad I didn't jump to conclusions and act like a putz towards this guy. 

I'll repeat, a little discretion goes a long ways sometimes.


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## Ray

Vanilla said:


> I have a feeling that when all the details come out, I'm going to be glad I didn't jump to conclusions and act like a putz towards this guy.
> 
> I'll repeat, a little discretion goes a long ways sometimes.


I'm acting like a putz towards you, and those who say standing there gawking at a mauling is the best course of action.

To believe that you've either gotta be naive, or a dumbas$.

As for as the client is concerned, I was merely pointing out throwing the weapon in the dirt was ineffective and stupid.


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## Critter

Have you even read the reports of what happened? 

It doesn't appear that the client was standing around gawking at what what happening. With his injuries it appears that he was quite busy himself. 

But then none of us really know what went on in those few minutes that all this took place in, do we?


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## wyoming2utah

Ray said:


> I sure as sh!it wouldn't sit there watching the events unfold, especially if it were my wife or kids.


Even knowing that shooting probably wouldn't do any good? Do I need to repeat that factual statistics show that shooting your gun will most likely not change the outcome? And, would you still shoot knowing that you could do a whole heck of a lot of harm to your wife or kids and still not affect the outcome?

There is stupidity....and then there is stupidity.

Nobody said you should stand and gawk...how old are you? 12?


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## Ray

wyoming2utah said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sure as sh!it wouldn't sit there watching the events unfold, especially if it were my wife or kids.
> 
> 
> 
> Even knowing that shooting probably wouldn't do any good? Do I need to repeat that factual statistics show that shooting your gun will most likely not change the outcome? And, would you still shoot knowing that you could do a whole heck of a lot of harm to your wife or kids and still not affect the outcome?
> 
> There is stupidity....and then there is stupidity.
> 
> Nobody said you should stand and gawk...how old are you? 12?
Click to expand...

You posted 3 articles, you did sh!t for proving anything statistically.

Maybe I'm just not as big of a p#ssy as you but I **** sure know I'd do whatever it took to get a bear off my wife or child.


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## Vanilla

Ray said:


> You posted 3 articles, you did sh!t for proving anything statistically.
> 
> Maybe I'm just not as big of a p#ssy as you but I **** sure know I'd do whatever it took to get a bear off my wife or child.


As opposed to all that you've done to back up your very strong assertion earlier in the thread that brought me into this in the first place? Nice...

Just keep digging. And I'll reiterate, I'm sure I'm going to be glad that I didn't jump in and assume bad intent and action on this guy's part like you immediately did.


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## wyoming2utah

Ray said:


> You posted 3 articles, you did sh!t for proving anything statistically.
> 
> Maybe I'm just not as big of a p#ssy as you but I **** sure know I'd do whatever it took to get a bear off my wife or child.


Really...one of those "3 articles" (I'm pretty sure I posted more...but whatever) actually did a statistical review of bear attacks and statistically showed that using a gun in those situations will have little or no effect on the outcome. But, I bet you didn't read it.

And, you probably would do whatever it took to get the bear off your child or wife...including putting a bullet through your wife of child's chest to do it.

You are proving yourself to be a real tough guy! Have you ever red the book The Red Badge of Courage? You sound a lot like Henry Fleming! I suggest you go to war before predicting your bravery!


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## Ray

Here's one where the bear was stopped using a weapon.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/09/dean-weingarten/a-new-mexico-bear-attack-finally-stopped-by-a-glock-10mm-pistol/


and another


https://www.ammoland.com/2017/12/grizzly-bear-charge-stopped-with-a-44-magnum-video/#axzz5ROggSm3v


and another


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/29/world/europe/polar-bear-shot-cruise-ship.html


and another


http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2016/09/az-bow-hunter-uses-handgun-to-stop.html


and another


http://sitkasentinel.com/7/2012-05-10-22-08-10/local-news/10384-big-pistol-drops-bear-too-close-for-comfort


and another


http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2016/08/exclusive-details-on-10mm-bear-defense.html


and another


https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/


and another

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3264977/I-hear-bear-breathing-Sheep-hunter-describes-woken-black-bear-biting-head.html


and another


https://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/11/west_springfield_police_sikes.html


and another


https://missoulian.com/news/local/gun-charge-against-man-who-shot-glacier-grizzly-bear-dismissed/article_c8fcff56-540e-11e4-997b-d776d119223d.html


these took me all of 3 minutes to locate.


----------



## Ray

What would you bear experts do then?


Someone you're in the woods with gets mauled, all you have is a sidearm or a primary firearm. What do you do? leave the weapons alone and hit the bear with a stick?


----------



## Vanilla

I thought I’d made clear before that I wouldn’t be in grizzly country with only a gun? Don’t be an idiot. Use that brain of yours.


----------



## Ray

Vanilla said:


> I thought I'd made clear before that I wouldn't be in grizzly country with only a gun? Don't be an idiot. Use that brain of yours.


Way to dodge the question there buddy.

At what point do you use the gun? Time isn't on your side, it never is in these situations, you can't sit there fumble around with different things hoping one will work.

Bear spray isn't an end all be all. There are plenty of cases where it didn't prevent an attack and other instances where it just angered the bear.


----------



## MadHunter

Regardless of everything that has been said here we (yes including myself) have only speculated as to what we would do in a situation like this. There is a difference between seeing a bear and being attacked by one. We've all seen predators wile in the woods but few of us, if any, have actually been attacked by one. So, until you are actually attacked you can't say for certain what you would do. All you can do is prepare yourself (gun, spray, whistles, etc.)and know that it all amounts to crap when you are in bear country. 

It's bear country, not hunter country. Stats and facts don't add up to a hill of bear $h!t out there. You stand to lose...that is the certainty of it.


----------



## Vanilla

Well, you asked a really dumb question. What did you expect? But because you’ve shown you need a little help, I’ll answer the question. I’d use bear spray. Bear spray that won’t be IN my pack. The canister will be hooked right on my chest, easily accessible, and I’ll live or die with my ability and hope to deter any potential attack with that. You are right, bear spray is not 100%. But scientific studies show it is far more effective than your sidearm, and it isn’t even close. One might not feel as manly or as tough without the gun, but they might feel more alive after. 

The only way to ensure you aren’t mauled by a grizzly bear is don’t be in grizzly bear country. No matter how prepared you are, what deterrent you’re using, or how unbelievably tough one is, there is risk the second you step into their country. I’ll be doing that on a backpacking trip next summer. I really hope we don’t see a bear, let alone have to interact with one. But if we do end up having something unfortunate happen, I can only hope there isn’t some raging d bag on the Internet popping off when he has no clue what he’s talking about. Unfortunately, this hunter wasn’t that lucky on that second hope. 

You have successfully flipped the script into a dumb circular argument about bear deterrence methods, but it doesn’t change where this started Ray.


----------



## Ray

I grew up in grizz country, I think I know a little more than you buddy. Say what you will, we pack spray and we pack shotguns loaded with slugs as a first line of defense. come sleep time, you won't be cuddling up next to a can of spray, you'll be snuggled up against some cold steel.


It has nothing to do with being manly, you made a dumbas$ remark about you just wanting to stand there like the slack-jawed yokel you are while someone gets mauled. 


you're the last type of person that belongs in grizz country, if you see someone getting mauled you'll suppose they're having a tickle fight and go on your way. 


Keep us posted on yours and your boyfriends trip next year!


----------



## Kwalk3

Ray said:


> I grew up in grizz country, I think I know a little more than you buddy. Say what you will, we pack spray and we pack shotguns loaded with slugs as a first line of defense. come sleep time, you won't be cuddling up next to a can of spray, you'll be snuggled up against some cold steel.
> 
> It has nothing to do with being manly, you made a dumbas$ remark about you just wanting to stand there like the slack-jawed yokel you are while someone gets mauled.
> 
> you're the last type of person that belongs in grizz country, if you see someone getting mauled you'll suppose they're having a tickle fight and go on your way.
> 
> Keep us posted on yours and your boyfriends trip next year!


Seems like you'd be fun to have around a campfire.

I think you've grossly and willfully misinterpreted and misconstrued what those who wouldn't have shot the bear were saying. Absolutely no one here is saying that they would have done NOTHING. There's not really enough evidence for you to say the dude did nothing either.

I also don't think it's fair for you to pass judgment on the hunter who was hurt and managed to get to safety. If the bear mauled the guide and he was just messed up bad and not killed, it's reasonable to imagine a circumstance where the guy who got away and called for help could have saved the life of a the guide. In situations where someone is critically wounded, time is of the essence and maybe the hunter thought that was his best chance.

Two families without their fathers wouldn't make this situation any better.

Where you grew up doesn't really have anything to do with this. There are a hell of a lot of guys in Montana that don't think like you.

All that said, the only real problem I have is not with your opinion(which differs from mine), but with the way you've approached this conversation. It's OK for people to disagree, even passionately, and not resort to jr. high name-calling.

Like i said, I see this situation differently than you do, but I don't think your opinion is any less valid. I do think that your delivery could use a little work.


----------



## 3arabians

Ray said:


> I grew up in grizz country.
> 
> Keep us posted on yours and your boyfriends trip next year!


I had a hearty chuckle at these 2 lines! I would bet a pretty penny Vanilla did also. Cheap entertainment Ray. Thats about it.....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## Ray

Kwalk3 said:


> Seems like you'd be fun to have around a campfire.
> 
> I think you've grossly and willfully misinterpreted and misconstrued what those who wouldn't have shot the bear were saying. Absolutely no one here is saying that they would have done NOTHING. There's not really enough evidence for you to say the dude did nothing either.
> 
> I also don't think it's fair for you to pass judgment on the hunter who was hurt and managed to get to safety. If the bear mauled the guide and he was just messed up bad and not killed, it's reasonable to imagine a circumstance where the guy who got away and called for help could have saved the life of a the guide. In situations where someone is critically wounded, time is of the essence and maybe the hunter thought that was his best chance.
> 
> Two families without their fathers wouldn't make this situation any better.
> 
> Where you grew up doesn't really have anything to do with this. There are a hell of a lot of guys in Montana that don't think like you.
> 
> All that said, the only real problem I have is not with your opinion(which differs from mine), but with the way you've approached this conversation. It's OK for people to disagree, even passionately, and not resort to jr. high name-calling.
> 
> Like i said, I see this situation differently than you do, but I don't think your opinion is any less valid. I do think that your delivery could use a little work.


Well said Kwalk, well said.

Diplomacy is not my strong suit, I also grew up around nothing but brothers so my language leaves a more to be desired.
The way I've been talking is the way I'd talk to any friend, relative or random Joe on the street.

I agree I did jump to the conclusion that they'd stand around like slack-jawed yokels but the situation we're discussing the guy had a gun, not bear spray, so you use the tools you're given.

To say that you won't shoot in fear of hitting the person being mauled is stupid, especially if all you have is a gun and a gun in that situation can be a game changer.

I only brought up the place of my upbringing because dumb-dumb (Vanilla) said I don't know what I'm talking about, when he's had limited experience in grizz country at best.


----------



## Vanilla

This thread has clearly shown that I’m the dum dum. 

The funniest part about how angry you are at me is I have never defended the actions or suggested what I would have done in the situation. I might actually agree with you, for all you know. I’m just not ignorant enough to jump on a man’s grave and another man’s misfortune to prove myself right on the Internet. Takes a special kind of tough guy to act like that, and clearly I’m not there yet. I’ll keep trying.


----------



## johnnycake

Ray, nobody has said they absolutely wouldn't have used the gun instead of tossing it to the guide. What has been consistently stated, and you have subsequently misunderstood and misconstrued, is that none of us know what we would have done in that situation and so we cannot say whether the client made a bad decision. We just don't know the facts. 

I have been charged by a black bear before while archery deer hunting on the La Sal's, and thankfully that chunk of sandstone hit him on the head and he reconsidered his actions. I have been bluff charged on a handful of occasions by grizzlies, but thankfully yelling halted it before I needed to use either the pistol or bear spray that was in my hand. 

Of course I think there are circumstances that a pistol is the right call, and naturally there are also times when it would only make things worse. In my mind, a gun is only to be used as the bear deterrent when the bear is not in direct contact with somebody--either before contact had been made or at a point when the bear separates from the victim. Bear spray is for use before, during and after contact, with me feeling much better about pepper soaking my wife, children, or friends versus shooting then accidentally. But that is all theory so far to me as I've not yet been in a contact situation, thankfully. But, in case I ever am in one, that is also why I have bear spray and have practiced with it, just like I do with my 10mm and .45-70, and know how to use them all. 

I take my wife and two young kids out into wild grizzly country close to 100 days a year (not counting the numerous bears that live within Anchorage City limits). I've spent a lot of time talking with people who have been in bear attacks, training and prepping with bear guns for an aggressive bear encounter, and actively hunting them. I have probably been within 50' of more grizzlies than the vast majority of hunters in Alaska or the lower 48 over the past 19 years of coming to Alaska and eventually moving here, but even with all of that experience I would never arrogate myself to assume I could know after the fact what "should have" been done. In my opinion you started out just over the line and then proceeded to piss all over it in your subsequent posts. 

There's one family grieving, and another relieved to have their father back, and both will forever have regrets and second thoughts that haunt them. None of us have any business adding to that.


----------



## Ray

Vanilla, I'm not angry at all, I'm just an as$hole that talks a lot sh!t.


Johnny, touché. I donated to the guides GFundMe page, and I hope everyone else that can does as well.


----------



## Ray

https://www.gofundme.com/mark-uptain


----------



## wyoming2utah

Well Ray...here's my last piece of evidence to back up my opinion:
https://above.nasa.gov/safety/documents/Bear/bearspray_vs_bullets.pdf

A couple nuggets since you probably won't read it...
"When it comes to self defense against grizzly bears, the answer is not as obvious as it may seem. In fact, experienced hunters are surprised to find that despite the use of firearms against a charging bear, they were attacked and badly hurt. Evidence of human-bear encounters even suggests that shooting a bear can escalate the seriousness of an attack, while encounters where firearms are not used are less likely to result in injury or death of the human or the bear."

"Law enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality --based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries. Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person's chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used."

Remember, I also posted this a couple of times before too:
"Smith and his colleagues analyzed 269 incidents of bear-human conflicts in Alaska for the study, appearing in the forthcoming issue of the Journal of Wildlife Management. Those incidents involved 444 people and 357 bears, 300 of which were brown bears.

The researchers found no statistical difference in the outcome (no injury, injury or fatality) when they compared those who used their gun in an aggressive encounter (229 instances) to those who had firearms but did not use them (40 instances).

In a 2008 study, Smith found that bear spray effectively halted aggressive bear encounters in 92 percent of the cases."

Interestingly, though, ""Out of 176 incidents, there were only three injuries, just scratches," Smith said of his pepper spray findings. And no bears died."

To answer your question, I can't imagine ever being charged by a bear with a gun in my possession. I have spent quite a bit of time in grizzly country in Canada fishing for salmon, and I have never had a gun or bear spray on my person. Considering the fact that bear attacks are so unlikely and so statistically far from being a likely occurrence, I don't worry about them. Sure, I take measures to try and stay safe, but I am more likely to die from West Nile Virus or a bee sting than I am from being attacked by a bear. And, truthfully, I am much more likely to getting hurt from tripping on a rock or over a log than being mauled by a bear...so, I don't worry too much about it. So, what would I do if one of my friends or family members were attacked? Yeah, I would probably do the dumb thing and try to find a big stick or big rock. And, in the process I would only piss that bear off. But, at least I wouldn't be shooting my loved one...

...you know what is ironic? Those people who do accidentally shoot their loved ones often don't directly hit that person--the bullet ricochets or goes through the bear first.


----------



## Ray

I stand by what I said, if I witness a mauling and happen to be armed I'm shooting.


If you're willing to walk up and whack it with a stick why not walk and shoot it in the spine from point blank range? If you're willing to get that close, might as well get close and put one where it counts, effectively diminishing any possibility of hitting the mauling victim.


----------



## wyoming2utah

wyoming2utah said:


> Those people who do accidentally shoot their loved ones often don't directly hit that person--the bullet ricochets or goes through the bear first.


This^^^^^
No idea where that bullet will end up...besides, I would most likely not have a gun anyway. And, if I did, I hope that my understanding would lead me to a better decision.


----------



## CPAjeff

Did you quote yourself on purpose?? ^^^^^^^^^


----------



## johnnycake

CPAjeff said:


> Did you quote yourself on purpose?? ^^^^^^^^^


I believe he did, as he had already answered Ray's question about walking up and shooting it in the spine.


----------



## CPAjeff

johnnycake said:


> I believe he did, as he had already answered Ray's question about walking up and shooting it in the spine.


Ah - makes sense now. Hooked on phonics didn't go so well for me!


----------



## Vanilla

CPAjeff said:


> Ah - makes sense now. Hooked on phonics didn't go so well for me!


There was no spreadsheet attached, so I can see where you would be confused.


----------



## MadHunter

CPAjeff said:


> Did you quote yourself on purpose?? ^^^^^^^^^


Yes, yes he did!


----------



## trackerputnam

There are those that run to the “fire” and there are those that run away from the fire. Neither one is wrong, just different approaches to an event. I have had a few “fires” come up in my time in the woods, being the jungles of the city, or the jungles of the wilderness. I have during those times, run to the fire. I choose to spend my time with those that will run to the fire. Would not want to spend much time with the “running away” crowd.


----------



## Ray

trackerputnam said:


> There are those that run to the "fire" and there are those that run away from the fire. Neither one is wrong, just different approaches to an event. I have had a few "fires" come up in my time in the woods, being the jungles of the city, or the jungles of the wilderness. I have during those times, run to the fire. I choose to spend my time with those that will run to the fire. Would not want to spend much time with the "running away" crowd.


Preach &#128591;


----------



## PBH

the real question is: would you try to shoot the fire with a gun?

I'd probably use something more effective.


----------



## trackerputnam

If you don’t get the simple meaning behind what I said, that’s ok. Fire is just a metaphor for trouble. So insert trouble and perhaps easier for you to understand.


----------



## RemingtonCountry

'twas just a joke, Tracker....


----------



## Ray

PBH said:


> the real question is: would you try to shoot the fire with a gun?
> 
> I'd probably use something more effective.


&#128514; Now that's funny!


----------



## PBH

trackerputnam said:


> If you don't get the simple meaning behind what I said, that's ok.


hmmmm....

Irony anyone?


----------



## wyoming2utah

trackerputnam said:


> There are those that run to the "fire" and there are those that run away from the fire *and then there are those who run to the fire with a blow torch in one hand and a flamethrower in the other. None are wrong*, just different approaches to an event. I have had a few "fires" come up in my time in the woods, being the jungles of the city, or the jungles of the wilderness. I have during those times, run to the fire. I choose to spend my time with those that will run to the fire *with a blow torch and flamethrower crowd*. Would not want to spend much time with the "running away" crowd.


There....fixed it for ya!


----------



## Fowlmouth

Looks like nothing was going to stop this bear.
https://ktvh.com/news/us-news/2018/...und-near-wyoming-guide-killed-in-bear-attack/


----------



## Ray

It sounds like he did what he could with what he had..


I'm just surprised not one single shot was fired, could have been a difference maker. Does anyone know what kind of gun he was packing?


----------



## APD

Fowlmouth said:


> Looks like nothing was going to stop this bear.
> https://ktvh.com/news/us-news/2018/...und-near-wyoming-guide-killed-in-bear-attack/


wonder why CO's shot the bear? don't they carry bear spray? they certainly didn't read this thread.:deadhorse:


----------



## Ray

They didn't have to read it, they saw that the spray didn't do jack. 


Thought I'd help with the kicking, APD. haha


----------



## longbow

Ray said:


> It sounds like he did what he could with what he had..
> 
> I'm just surprised not one single shot was fired, could have been a difference maker. Does anyone know what kind of gun he was packing?












OK, I tried to stand back and let the armchair "bear experts" talk about what THEY/HE would have done and I cain't stands it no more. I walked down to the creek below my house to take this picture just to establish a little credibility. If you need more credibility from me PM Longgun. He's just left here a couple weeks ago and has been here hunting bears, deer, ocean waterfowl (etc)with me multiple times. He's seem a ****-ton of bears too. I'm not going to quote stats or post someone else's link to bear mauling stats or how great bear spray is. I'm just going from my own experiences.
Anyway... I see multiple grizzlies every day from late May until Christmas time. I've been involved in a "few" run-ins and a few DLP (defense of life and property). (Ha!, remember Longggun, that 8'+ punk who marched down the beach and stole your duck? Ya they come to the sound of gunshots.) Good times. I didn't need coffee for a week after. (A bear chewed my coffee mug [flattened it] today that I'd just left there an hour ago. I came around the corner and the dork still had it in his mouth!)
I digress. In the midst of a bear charge sh!t gets hectic and confusing real fast. They are super fast, lay in wait and seem to come from nowhere when they charge. It's very mentally tough to stay alert when you smell a bear bed, see fresh bear tracks or stumble on a fresh pile of scat. Even if you walk up on a elk or deer kill on full alert a charge can surprise you and throw you off guard. Kinda like a pheasant you know is in a bush and when he busts out it still startles you. Except with big claws and a 1000 lbs of muscle to back them up.
If you thump your chest and say "if a bear charges me/us this is what I'D do" "Why did the Floridan throw his gun at the guide? I'd never do that!" "I'd jump in there and shoot that sucker!" That's easy to say.....but? I'm NOT just surprised not one single shot was fired.
I've been lucky so far. There's been more than once I've had to take care of business and then lay down and recover. I've got two hunters coming up the third week in Oct and two coming up the last week. Hopefully you won't read about me on KSL.


----------



## Ray

That's clearly photoshopped.


----------



## longbow

Ray said:


> They didn't have to read it, they saw that the spray didn't do jack.
> 
> Thought I'd help with the kicking, APD. haha


OK, lets talk about bear spray. It works on menacing bears. On bears in full death charge? Not so much. This is from experience (Kenai, Kuiu and Afognak island).


----------



## longbow

Ray said:


> That's clearly photoshopped.


OK, I'll run down to the creek again. What picture do you want me to take?


----------



## Ray

longbow said:


> OK, lets talk about bear spray. It works on menacing bears. On bears in full death charge? Not so much. This is from experience (Kenai, Kuiu and Afognak island).


This one is also photoshopped.


----------



## APD

longbow said:


> OK, I'll run down to the creek again. What picture do you want me to take?


since you're taking requests...i'm partial to blondes and high heels.;-)


----------



## Ray

APD said:


> since you're taking requests...i'm partial to blondes and high heels.;-)


This, right here.


----------



## Ray

I was teasing about the photoshop stuff, just having a good time.


I know stuff goes to hell real fast when the proverbial sh!t hits the fan, there's no doubt there, and I agree, there are definitely times when even a bird will startle the heck out of you, especially those darn grouse. 


All I'm saying is it's weird he threw the gun and I find it odd no shots were fired. 


The only point I was making, is if someone is getting attacked and I'm armed, I'm going to throw some lead downrange. Now obviously if a bear is chomping on me too then that might change.


But if I'm standing there, doing nothing and I've got a gun in hand, I'd shoot. I don't see why that's so macho, I don't understand why anyone has a problem with that statement.


I know it's probably because of my delivery, I know I'm an ass, and I know my wife is a saint for putting up with me.


----------



## wyogoob

longbow said:


> OK, I tried to stand back and let the armchair "bear experts" talk about what THEY/HE would have done and I cain't stands it no more. I walked down to the creek below my house to take this picture just to establish a little credibility. If you need more credibility from me PM Longgun. He's just left here a couple weeks ago and has been here hunting bears, deer, ocean waterfowl (etc)with me multiple times. He's seem a ****-ton of bears too. I'm not going to quote stats or post someone else's link to bear mauling stats or how great bear spray is. I'm just going from my own experiences.
> Anyway... I see multiple grizzlies every day from late May until Christmas time. I've been involved in a "few" run-ins and a few DLP (defense of life and property). (Ha!, remember Longggun, that 8'+ punk who marched down the beach and stole your duck? Ya they come to the sound of gunshots.) Good times. I didn't need coffee for a week after. (A bear chewed my coffee mug [flattened it] today that I'd just left there an hour ago. I came around the corner and the dork still had it in his mouth!)
> I digress. In the midst of a bear charge sh!t gets hectic and confusing real fast. They are super fast, lay in wait and seem to come from nowhere when they charge. It's very mentally tough to stay alert when you smell a bear bed, see fresh bear tracks or stumble on a fresh pile of scat. Even if you walk up on a elk or deer kill on full alert a charge can surprise you and throw you off guard. Kinda like a pheasant you know is in a bush and when he busts out it still startles you. Except with big claws and a 1000 lbs of muscle to back them up.
> If you thump your chest and say "if a bear charges me/us this is what I'D do" "Why did the Floridan throw his gun at the guide? I'd never do that!" "I'd jump in there and shoot that sucker!" That's easy to say.....but? I'm NOT just surprised not one single shot was fired.
> I've been lucky so far. There's been more than once I've had to take care of business and then lay down and recover. I've got two hunters coming up the third week in Oct and two coming up the last week. Hopefully you won't read about me on KSL.


This is my favorite post.

.


----------



## longbow

wyogoob said:


> This is my favorite post.
> 
> .


Here's one for you Goob. A Kodiak brown bear munching down on a Pink salmon. Nom, Nom!


----------



## longbow

APD said:


> since you're taking requests...i'm partial to blondes and high heels.;-)


Well, there is a couple blonde down there but they don't have high heels. Just long claws and some pissy attitudes.


----------



## Ray

Nobody forget, my being an ass got us these pictures. 

You're welcome.


----------



## Ray

If you boys want to see a real blonde, place your peepers on this.


----------



## johnnycake

Freak I still need to make a trip out to the rock to go play in your backyard longbow!


----------



## longbow

johnnycake said:


> Freak I still need to make a trip out to the rock to go play in your backyard longbow!


I know right!? I'm only 300 mile below you. Git down here. And, I owe you for turning me on to your ptarmigan hotspot (ya know, the parking lot in Las Anchorage.) Seriously, you have an open invitation to bring your lovely family stay.


----------



## Ray

I'd also like to point out that those pictures didn't prove anything one way or the other in this argument. 

😎


----------



## Ray

We both know those bears are fat on fish and more docile because of it.

So when you go into the bush you only pack a can of spray, you don't pack a sidearm as well? You choose to only have one line of defense?


----------



## PBH

Ray said:


> So when you go into the bush you only pack a can of spray, you don't pack a sidearm as well? You choose to only have one line of defense?


nobody in Canada packs a side arm. 
Just saying.


----------



## Ray

PBH said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when you go into the bush you only pack a can of spray, you don't pack a sidearm as well? You choose to only have one line of defense?
> 
> 
> 
> nobody in Canada packs a side arm.
> Just saying.
Click to expand...

That's only because Canada sucks.


----------



## wyoming2utah

OH man....those words are like daggers! I love Canada. I can't wait to get back!

By the way you talk, though, nobody who ventures out into the woods should be alive in Canada...


----------



## longbow

Ray said:


> We both know those bears are fat on fish and more docile because of it.
> 
> So when you go into the bush you only pack a can of spray, you don't pack a sidearm as well? You choose to only have one line of defense?


They're pretty docile right now but it won't be too long and they will be hungry and ornery. In later October and November they even fight over the frozen dog turds on my lawn.

If I don't take my Weatherby I'll have my 44mag in a chest holster. I never carry spray anymore.


----------



## longbow

Ray said:


> I'd also like to point out that those pictures didn't prove anything one way or the other in this argument.
> 
> &#128526;


Okey Dokey. Got it.


----------



## Ray

longbow said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> We both know those bears are fat on fish and more docile because of it.
> 
> So when you go into the bush you only pack a can of spray, you don't pack a sidearm as well? You choose to only have one line of defense?
> 
> 
> 
> They're pretty docile right now but it won't be too long and they will be hungry and ornery. In later October and November they even fight over the frozen dog turds on my lawn.
> 
> If I don't take my Weatherby I'll have my 44mag in a chest holster. I never carry spray anymore.
Click to expand...

The bit about the dog turds is hilarious! &#128514;


----------



## Ray

wyoming2utah said:


> OH man....those words are like daggers! I love Canada. I can't wait to get back!
> 
> By the way you talk, though, nobody who ventures out into the woods should be alive in Canada...


I meant the Canadian government sucks.

I'm not saying if you go out without a firearm you're going to get attacked and die, if that's how you read it I suggest you go back and read it again.

All I'm saying is to me, it's silly to willingly choose to only have one line of defense.

Why wouldn't you also pack a firearm? I don't get it..


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## Critter

When I was up in British Colombia my guide always packed a .44 mag and even the horse wrangler had a pistol. We even tried to figure out a way for the wrangler to be able to import a .44 mag that I was going to sell him but the paperwork got into the way of that one. Now the cook didn't have a pistol but he packed a Marlin 444 with him to the outhouse.


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## wyoming2utah

I wouldn't pack either...and don't. The chances of being attacked are so low that I don't see the point...


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## Ray

Critter said:


> When I was up in British Colombia my guide always packed a .44 mag and even the horse wrangler had a pistol. We even tried to figure out a way for the wrangler to be able to import a .44 mag that I was going to sell him but the paperwork got into the way of that one. Now the cook didn't have a pistol but he packed a Marlin 444 with him to the outhouse.


That's one smart cook! Carry when you're most vulnerable! &#128514;


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## Ray

What did you hunt in BC?


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## Critter

I went up on a grizzly and black bear hunt and only brought home a black bear.


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## PBH

Critter said:


> I went up on a grizzly and black bear hunt and only brought home a black bear.


maybe you should have tried the pepper spray?


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## Critter

PBH said:


> maybe you should have tried the pepper spray?


I would of but that only grizzly that we saw was 600 yards away with the wind blowing in our faces. A little bit too far for that pepper spray


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## Ray

PBH said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went up on a grizzly and black bear hunt and only brought home a black bear.
> 
> 
> 
> maybe you should have tried the pepper spray?
Click to expand...

Genius, pure genius! &#128514;

In all seriousness, I'm very jealous of your hunt. ☹


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## Bax*

Good grief. Do I need to lock both of these threads?


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## Ray

Bax* said:


> Good grief. Do I need to lock both of these threads?


No sir, we've had a good discussion, albeit at times a bit hostile, and I apologize for coming across that way but in the end, it was good.

I learned a lot, I feel like we all grew together in this conversation.

Mr. Longbow made me see the error of my ways, and I'll be on the straight and narrow from now on.

My new motto is "spray and pray" because all I'm going to use now is bear spray and I have this thread to thank for that.


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## Dunkem

Bax* said:


> Good grief. Do I need to lock both of these threads?


 THIS!!~


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## stillhunterman

A pretty good article of the ordeal, after all was said and done...

https://trib.com/lifestyles/recreat...cle_c5913d2a-4889-5fa9-89d8-e44562b06717.html


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## Ray

"There have been questions of why wasn’t there a gun, there was, the clip was dropped out of the gun before it was tossed in Marks direction and a round had never been chambered. What about bear spray? That was used also, an entire can was empty...It just wasn’t enough."

This was from his sister in-law on the go fund me page. He truly tried everything. It's a tragic story. Makes me think of my own family..

I hope everyone who could donate did.


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