# DWR wolf search?



## HunterGeek (Sep 13, 2007)

Anyone here familiar with any news of the DWR searching for a small pack of wolves on the north slope of the Uintas over the past week? I know a guy involved with support activities they've apparently been using trying to get a signal lock on radio collar signals. I'm just not sure if it's a routine scan or they think that they've found something. Judging from his reluctance to share details, it didn't sound routine. Yeah, I know, there are rumors of wolves all the time, but since I know this guy and what he does for a living, I'm taking it more seriously.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

good deal now utah can enjoy the all the benefits that MT,WY,ID have been blessed with over the past few years!!  Elk and deer numbers climbling, Elk becoming much more vocal during the rutting season. leaving your horses in camp and knowing the wolves are thereto protect them. ranchers state wide will finally find peace and have nothing to complain about, and hunters and tree huggers will finally find a harmoninous balance and live like the lion and the lamb. And those great LE units just expect there stock to keep rising, kind of like the prime lolo and dorshack units in ID. And expect the already great general season areas like the aformentioned north slope to become elk and deer hotspots And i will not forget to mention the the federal government who in all its great wisdom decided to reintroduce the wolves will allow utah to construct, payfor,and carryout its own managment plan! By using funds from the DWR budget of course, so we can expect just a small bump in tags,licenses,fees ect, witch the outdoorsmans will be happy to pay because of the increase in the big game he gets to hunt!(plans however must meet the federal guidelines) however on the down side we will see an explosion of willows and aspens! Right finn?  And also the coyote population tends to small decreases in numbers when the wolves move in. Sportsman across utah if you truly have a legitimate pack one alfa male and female in less than 10 years time all these great benfits will be yours!! Hoist your beer or your green jello shooters and celebrate.  :wink:


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

HunterGeek said:


> I know a guy involved with support activities they've apparently been using trying to get a signal lock on radio collar signals.


What is "support activities"?



soules2007 said:


> Hoist your beer or your green jello shooters and celebrate.  :wink:


Or read a little bit, get educated and get involved.

I wonder why it's taking so long for this catastrophic wolf invasion to hit Utah? I mean, there's been wolves here for awhile now. Maybe it's thanks to poachers, eh? :lol:


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## HunterGeek (Sep 13, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> HunterGeek said:
> 
> 
> > I know a guy involved with support activities they've apparently been using trying to get a signal lock on radio collar signals.
> ...


He works with the Feds. Best not to say more, wouldn't want to risk his friendship.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Read quite frequently, from alot of diffrent sources,and not just the sportsmans opinions read articles from ralph maughn, and quite a few other wolf advocates. And arrived at the conclusion that the wolves spread faster and farther than anyone INVOLVED predicted. But you already know that because your involved. Witch you know it took 13 yrs for the wolves to spread to OR,WA,MT,ID,WY and like i said in my reply about ten years maybe less for utah to see some of the aformentioned benefits. Like i also said, IF IF you have a legit pack with a alpha male and female, utah may have wolves but does it have a breeding pair? Their is massive amounts of info on the gray wolfs reintroduction, and the information goes to the extreme in both directions. And all are stating opinions as fact, and what i posted is what i belive is true. I get infomation from articles,talking idaho fish and game officers, biologist, and talking to and reading what ranchers, outfitters, and other outdoorsman that have had first hand expierence with wolves have said. Spent some time in 2007 in idaho just outside of challis,where i was shown what was thought to be wolf kills. but the evidence was not there to be sure, so we spent time in the area trying to find track or other evidence to help ruleout,or confirm these were wolf kills. In the end i really think in this case it was a bear, again an opinion. This is the extent of my involvment in pre delisting of wolves, however once dates are set ,tags are issued, my involvment will increase ten fold. :lol:


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## coolgunnings (Sep 8, 2007)

While I was ptarmigan hunting last season my buddies and myself kicked out a lone wolf that was hunting goats. I did not get a picture but I know what I saw.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

My father in law has a great blue wolf mount in his living room. He is laying in the snow in a glass coffee case. So I guess I have witnessed a wolf in Utah...If they all come that way bring them ten fold!


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

isn't blue wolf like a micro-brew?


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

stablebuck said:


> isn't blue wolf like a micro-brew?


Hmmmm, another good wolf in Utah!


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

I have heard of lone wolves in the state. This is the first i have heard of a pack, but i easly could of missed that info. Any articles you may know off about packs in utah would be greatly appreitiated.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Not to ruin anyone's fun, it is a fun topic (second only to Sasquatch discussions), but the last time that wolves were spotted in Spanish Fork Canyon, with collars no less, I asked a DWR employee about this and he responded this way: 


> Is it possible that a pair of Mexican gray wolves made it all the way up to Spanish Fork Canyon? Yes. Is it likely? No. Do we expect them to show up in southern Utah? The odds are good, eventually.
> 
> Are wolves moving in from Wyoming and Idaho? Yes, probably. Are they here now? Maybe, but there's no conclusive evidence that any have taken up residence here. Would the DWR know about it if they were? Maybe not. The only way to get conclusive evidence is to catch one or find a body or get DNA samples.
> 
> ...


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

soules2007 said:


> And arrived at the conclusion that the wolves spread faster and farther than anyone INVOLVED predicted.


That's a fact. It's also a fact that wolf numbers have exceeded their management caps while lawyers have lined their pockets with money that would have been better spent on wildlife because emotions have outweighed reason.

The quote above is the only reason to conclude a doom and gloom scenario. Yet if the spread of wolves held consistent, then Utah should reasonably have a substantial population by now. It doesn't. Obviously, we're missing something and need more information before predicting the end of the world.

Utah isn't Idaho, despite the apparent conviction of a lot of hunters who seem to hope that it will be. If we're smart, we'll learn from Idaho and Wyoming and avoid their mistakes. Put more simply, doom and gloom is a self-fulfilling prophecy and hunters, more than any other group, have the power to either make that prophecy come true or use the benefit of hindsight and use a better strategy.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: They are here*

I have a job that takes me into the upper lakes off the Mirror Lake highway all year round and into the winter we make trips about once a month. It was about five years ago that I seen my first pair (Two) of wolf tracks around the upper lakes in the winter months. The past couple of years it has been common place to see wolf tracks during the winter.

Two years ago we had a cow moose permit in the Burnt Fork unit and while camped on upper Henry's Fork river we had a group of between four and six wolves howl at dusk and once again around midnight.

I am sure that we have a sustainable population of wolves in Utah right now. About twenty years ago we ran into a lone black colored wolf around the second microwave tower on Lofer mountain above Spanish Fork. Been hearing a lot of rumors for the last three years of a pair of wolves up American Fork canyon. I have no doubt they are hear and we will be feeling the impact of wolf in our state.

Bigbr


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## archery (Sep 7, 2007)

Hey Huge29, the government trappers killed two of the pieces of garbage right above my home in morgan valley. I don't know which dwr your friend works at, but there have been documented and exterminated wolves in utah. It was on the news, there are photos , and they were there. thankfully not everyone wants to hug them. Am i anti-wolf? you better believe it. we do not in todays society have room in all the old wolf haunts to re-introduce, or let them repopulate. they will destroy what they want, when they want. The wonderful re-introductions in the near north are failing totally. where there are wolves there is fast becoming, ONLY WOLVES. i have watched as they have ruined some favorite places, and i for one, am not ready to kiss of yet another state. wolves are wonderful in country where there is still room for themto roam. Utah is not such a place.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

archery said:


> Hey Huge29, the government trappers killed two of the pieces of garbage right above my home in morgan valley. I don't know which dwr your friend works at, but there have been documented and exterminated wolves in utah. It was on the news, there are photos , and they were there. thankfully not everyone wants to hug them.


No one has questioned that one capture, it was not two wolves, it was only one and it was not killed; it was relocated to Tetons NP. I had to re-read his quote, I am surprised that he omitted that one capture; the person quoted is well-known to all long-time forum members. But, indeed his and your facts are both in error: 
From http://www.utahfoundation.org/briefs/2005_04_wolves.html


> In summer 2002, wolf kills on livestock were verified in Cache County; in November 2002, a Yellowstone collared wolf was captured north of Morgan, Utah.


http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/utah-druid.htm


> Yesterday many folks learned that a probable wolf had been trapped by a coyote trapper east of Morgan, Utah, ... Mike Jimenez, USFWS wolf manager for Wyoming drove to the area and picked up the wolf... Jimenez returned to Wyoming and freed the wolf inside Grand Teton National Park.


 Read the rest of the quote if you want some perspective on these nut job's point of view.

My and the DWR employee's only point was that they are everyhwere if you listen to everyone, but most likely are few and far between with no major impact as of yet. Don't get me wrong I am *no* fan of the reintroduction in the least degree.


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## archery (Sep 7, 2007)

Good points huge29. But contrary to what the public was told, and i believe you are correct in that they only mentioned one. there were two and i know at least one was not re-located. first one may have been. I just hope and pray utah doesn't keep its head in the sand and let them start to really group up here. I agree that they are likely far and few , but i really don't want to see utah become another central idaho, or southwest montana.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

I don't hear much disagreement about "reintroducing wolfes into Utah". But I also don't hear much disagreement even from the UDWR that self reintroduction is a matter of when not if. The UDWR allready has a "wolf management plan" in place to "manage" wolves WHEN they become a problem. The problem with the "wolf management plan" is that it cannot be implemented untill wolves are delisted by the Feds.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

campfire the wolves are in the delisting for ID,MT, the magic date is march 28th (read this somewhere. may be wrong) Wy managment plan was turned down by the feds. I am not aware of a reintroduction plan in utah i think that people believe they will find utah on thier own without help. And i think they want Utah to have a plan in place for when that happens. Wolves have been sighted in Utah, trapped in Utah, killed in Utah, however this is the first mention of a pack(pack including a breeding pair) Finn is right in the mention hopefully utah will do this right by learning from other states mistakes. But idaho experienced the same thing sporadic unconfirmed sightings,tracks, dead animals,ect, now they know way to late that the wolves were responsible and had they heeded the warnings of the people from the smaller towns they might have come up with a plan to limit the spead of the wolf. But with the way the feds are examining all the managment plans anything they would have done would have been shot down. Alot of people are really love the aura of the wolf and its connection with indians(not native americans, if that were the case 97% of the pop would be native americans) But the fact is most tribes hated the wolf. and saw the creature as competion for food. The myth that they saw the wolf as brother ranks up thier with the myth that the indians never wasted anything off a kill. They would run fifty buffalo(tatanka) off a cliff and keep three leaving the rest to rot. I truly hope Finn is right and these all are gloom and doom scenarios and will not come to past, ask outfitters in ID,MT,WY that have dealt with wolf problems(when they dont think your a potential client) and they will tell you to beware and they are now dealing with these problems first hand. Rancher in MT lost 120 sheep in less than 6 months,(confirmed wolf) pretty gloomy.


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## Levy (Oct 2, 2007)

> Alot of people are really love the aura of the wolf and its connection with indians(not native americans, if that were the case 97% of the pop would be native americans) But the fact is most tribes hated the wolf. and saw the creature as competion for food. The myth that they saw the wolf as brother ranks up thier with the myth that the indians never wasted anything off a kill. They would run fifty buffalo(tatanka) off a cliff and keep three leaving the rest to rot.


You are uninformed, and you spin your opinions as fact. The above quote is laughable and ignorant.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Levy said:


> > Alot of people are really love the aura of the wolf and its connection with indians(not native americans, if that were the case 97% of the pop would be native americans) But the fact is most tribes hated the wolf. and saw the creature as competion for food. The myth that they saw the wolf as brother ranks up thier with the myth that the indians never wasted anything off a kill. They would run fifty buffalo(tatanka) off a cliff and keep three leaving the rest to rot.
> 
> 
> You are uninformed, and you spin your opinions as fact. The above quote is laughable and ignorant.


Levy,
Pot meet the kettle... :lol: Please enlighten us with your *FACTS*!

On a side note, check this out http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/coyote.asp, I can certainly see why there could be a sighting in error, this thing being 1/2 wolf looks 100% wolf to me.


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

Is there anyone in this forum who doesn't beleave the Indians killed buffalo by running them off a cliff? :?:


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Levy pretty tough words with no supporting facts as you like to call them. since my FACTS have been called into question, i will give you sources to my so called laughable ignorance and i will use small words so i will not confuse you. Starting with the publication THROUGH INDIAN EYES ( an untold story of native american peoples) A readers digest publication 1995. When you get through with this book we will give you another ,(this one has a lot of colorful pictures should hold your intrest.) In this book you find some tribes even chased caribou into the water for easy kills and still took more than could be used. Orem lyons, historian,author, and elder of the Onondaga Nation. He was the first native american to give the commencement speech at syracuse university in 1993 when given the draft to the speech he demanded that the phrase first native american be changed to the first american indian. considering anyone born in america to be native american. In great falls MT they have the lewis and clark festival every july. Many of the local tribes are represented most will freely talk about their ancestors and the way they drove herds off cliffs,this was called buffalo jump according to blackfeet and crow storytellers. women and children were hidden behind piles of stones arranged in a v shape the point at witch was at the edge of a shear cliff and the buffalo would then be moved by hunters in buffalo capes with burning sticks to give the illusion of a forest fire and then herded off the cliff. the white man also did this with diffrent intent the tounge and the hide was generaly all the buffalo hunters used. Some hunters did take the meat as well. some of the indians talked about wolves and how they affected and brought hardship to the tribes even more so during the winter. Most of what i know about indian history come from books written by indians. I can make you a list of these, most of the books i have read on the subject, about 50 to 60 books in all. But hey levy since you said it, Well it must all be ignorant opinion. :lol: :wink:


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## Levy (Oct 2, 2007)

I never said that American Indians did not run buffalo off of cliffs. You list one or two tribes out of 550 tribes recognized by our government and assume that most hate the wolf and that they all run buffalo off of cliffs and let the maggots have them. This is where you are ignorant. I am also glad that you are reading a below grade journal such as Readers Digest to get your generalizations. I have some comic books if you need some more ammo.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Levy said:


> I never said that American Indians did not run buffalo off of cliffs. You list one or two tribes out of 550 tribes recognized by our government and assume that most hate the wolf and that they all run buffalo off of cliffs and let the maggots have them. This is where you are ignorant. I am also glad that you are reading a below grade journal such as Readers Digest to get your generalizations. I have some comic books if you need some more ammo.


Once again we ask where your facts are; unless you back up your statements with facts you are just spinning your opinions as facts; your words not mine.

You know for the American Indians and the Wolves to be so closely related, I sure didn't see a whole of Wolf related items in the *Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian *in Washington DC when I went there last month. By the way I'm married to an Indian and she doesn't like wolves at all; so that's one vote against them.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Come on levy. Still a post with no supporting fact, mine was not that good either. but saying readers digest is a below grade pub. maybe, but then you are stating opinion as fact. I am trying to find the only attempt at fact you made in your last post 550? (nice number not 549 and not 551) i am not saying your wrong, even about wolves buffalo and indians. but show supporting data. What i am saying is with all i have read (including comic books) these are the conclussions i have draw for myself(my own contritions? thats for nibble nuts). there were many tribes that had little dealing with wolves yeah its using common sense to say they did not hate the wolf as much as a tribe who was in direct competion with the wolf for food. But as a whole what the modern public knows about indians is just what they have learned from hollywood films, comic books,(your main source, much better than readers digest)ect. Calling my beliefs ignorant really did not go down to well the first time, i then shot back with some slights of my own. I now realize you have no facts and these posts just upset you, relax. the wolves will be delisted and i will send you a nice wolf fur, and you can send me comic books. (older books in great condition perferably in plastic covers with no bent corners.)  Mojo was the smithsonian as cool as it looks?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

soules2007 said:


> Mojo was the smithsonian as cool as it looks?


Yes they were, the American history museum was closed for renovation  , the Natural history one was really neat. :mrgreen: I was kind of disappointed in the air and space museum, but I had expected more airplanes, those are kept at a Chantilly VA museum (an off the mall site), still I would recommend touring all of the Smithsonian's if you get the chance. I going back to the DC area in a few weeks on business and I'm going to make time to go to the Chantilly museum, it has a space shuttle on site among other things.


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## Levy (Oct 2, 2007)

"There are more than 550 federally recognized tribes in the United States, including 223 village groups in Alaska. “Federally recognized” means these tribes and groups have a special, legal relationship with the U.S. government. This relationship is referred to as a government-to-government relationship." Source: Bureau of Indian Affairs, U.S. Department of the Interior.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Levy said:


> "There are more than 550 federally recognized tribes in the United States, including 223 village groups in Alaska. "Federally recognized" means these tribes and groups have a special, legal relationship with the U.S. government. This relationship is referred to as a government-to-government relationship." Source: Bureau of Indian Affairs, U.S. Department of the Interior.


Okay so how many of those didn't run Buffalo off of cliffs to kill them, I'll go out on a limb, use a little common sense and say the 223 Alaskan village groups didn't use that haverst tactic, so how about the numbers on the rest of the 550+tribes? Almost forgot, how many tribes loved the wolves?


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## Levy (Oct 2, 2007)

> Okay so how many of those didn't run Buffalo off of cliffs to kill them, I'll go out on a limb, use a little common sense and say the 223 Alaskan village groups didn't use that haverst tactic, so how about the numbers on the rest of the 550+tribes? Almost forgot, how many tribes loved the wolves?


Man you are missing the mojo on this one. That has nothing to do with the previous comments. So lumping American Indians into groups probably isn't a good idea? Bingo, circle gets the square. I am married to a girl from Ohio and get this she hates the Buckeyes.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Mojo sounds real cool, somewhere in the smithsonian (maybe in the section that was closed when you were there) is the skull of a grizzly taken up logan canyon UT (cache valley) his name was old ephriam?(spelling is a guess) and supposedly he was the biggest grizzly on record. Killed by a sheep rancher who was also killed in the altercation. Sorry to hear about your mojo missing.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Guys, Lets keep this friendly  You guys are getting out of control, let's not let the anonymity make us go too far and act like we can flame as much as we want. It really sounds childish as I read through this page, this is the kind of crap that gets thrown into the gut pile since it is simply a cat fight. It is an interesting topic, let's keep it on topic. I am not perfect, I have been it these dumb arguments too, looking back I realize what an @$$ I was. Handle your dispute over private messages it is quite boring to have to read.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Huge 29 thnks for the check, being called ignorant started me off and i took it from there, you are right.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I remember the last time I got into one and I read it the next day and I was very embarassed -)O(- . At the end of the day, we are all members of the same party and I think most of the fellars on here would pull your chevy out of the mud any day of the week, assuming they have a Ford, :lol: j/k. So, what ever happened to the original question? Is there a sasquatch or not?

PS-Gulfport, MS?????


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

soules2007 said:


> Mojo sounds real cool, somewhere in the smithsonian (maybe in the section that was closed when you were there) is the skull of a grizzly taken up logan canyon UT (cache valley) his name was old ephriam?(spelling is a guess) and supposedly he was the biggest grizzly on record. Killed by a sheep rancher who was also killed in the altercation. Sorry to hear about your mojo missing.


Mojo isn't missing; he's setting right beside me as I type this. :lol: :wink:

I have heard the story of old Ephraim before, but the version I heard had the rancher that killed him living. They have a huge grizzly & polar bear mounted in the Natural History Museum along with an elephant mounted in the atrium. That grizzly skull probably was there somewhere, something like 20% of each museum is open to public viewing, and the rest is storage, preservation, and research areas. The museums are huge multi-level building. They each take a good while to walk thru; it took me 2 trips down there to walk thru them.


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

soules2007 said:


> .... is the skull of a grizzly taken up logan canyon UT (cache valley) his name was old ephriam?(spelling is a guess) and supposedly he was the biggest grizzly on record. Killed by a sheep rancher who was also killed in the altercation.


He actually was not seriosly injured. He lived quite a few years after. He even wrote a short story about his experience which is fascinating reading. I'll just say he had a lot of courage to go against that critter. I would have been moving out fast when I heard him growling, and dragging the traps, logs, and chains down the gulley towards his camp.


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## NHS (Sep 7, 2007)

KSL just aired a story this evening about the DWRs search for a wolf pack near Dutch John. There was a DWR employee who said they saw 2 sets of tracks in the snow, but were unable to photograph because of lighting conditions. I'm sure someone will post the link to the story here. Huge?


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

[I am married to a girl from Ohio and get this she hates the Buckeyes.[/quote]

Then she is from Kentucky.


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