# Can a lifelong fan change allegiances after 32 years?????



## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

So before I wright anything I must say I don't know if this is all from me going partly nuts from having no life for the last 14 months with no signs or hope of ever getting back to normal! So with that said here is my question and feelings.

We all know I am and always have been a huge BYU sports fan. I am finding it harder and harder to not let the way that the BYU football program is run get to me. I went to every game and supported the program fully during the horrid years of the previous coach. Now I am getting more and more turned off by Bronco and his coaching style as I know some fans are. I sound crazy to myself even because of the two 11-2 back to back seasons and a very respectable 10-3 season last year, however again I find myself getting more and more turned off. Over the years I have had so many yelling matches with my family over why they cheer for the Utes and not the Y. I'm not sure why but over time I have found myself thinking about why they hate BYU so much. Now let me tell you the biggest turnoff for me. I have never fallen into the whole BYU thinks their holier than though crap that I've always said is bull crap. My problem is that I want to cheer for a college football team that from it's Coach on downs first priority is to win football games! With all of the other stuff falling into line after that. Now Bronco has stated as fact that he places football I believe 3rd of 4th in the grand scheme of things. I'm sorry but that really pisses me off. Bronco was hired as the Coach of BYU to win football games and do everything else that is expected of him at BYU. If he wants to burn religion into everyone and be a confidant/preacher/motivator/holier than though/turning young boys into men/ type of a role model then he should become a bishop and mentor the youth recreation leagues and leave the Head Football Coach at BYU to someone who is going to put Football first and all the other stuff again in line after that. I have never let the whole honor code thing get to me either, however, with the whole Manti Teo debacle and the reason he is not coming to BYU I am fed up with it. No one can tell me that Bronco is not going into recruiting with a holier than though attitude. He has again stated on record that he wants good young men first and the fact that they are a good football player or not is somewhere down the line. I'm sorry but I do not see BYU ever being better then what they have done in the last few years if they continue to put football at the bottom of the totum poll. 

So I'm not supporting and watching BYU football to see how great of a job Bronco has done at making these guys great men to sustain themselves after football. I'm supporting and watching BYU football to see winning football first and foremost. I'm not saying we have to go as low as the previous coach and go out and sign every thug from the inner city, but can't there be a happy medium? Oh wait yes there can be, yes that's right, the University of Utah and Kyle Wittingham seem to have found that happy medium with what seems to be great young men with a win football games first mentality. 

So here is my dilema, I love BYU athletics and always have. I have always said that I don't like the school itself because the whole religion thing has never agreed to me as far as the way the school is run, it's just not for me. That has never changed my view or support of the sports programs until now. I feel like the religion aspect is being forced into the football program and that all comes before football from Bronco. I don't like that one bit and am really bummed out that I don't like the way the football program is run. Now seeing what Wittingam has done and how he has done it, I have much more respect for him as a coach and a person becuase he just seems to me that he is going about things the right way as far as being religious and setting that apart from being the head football coach. 

Now those of you that say hey I'm just wanting to jump onto the bandwagon because of the success may have a point. I would hope that's not what I'm wanting to do because I have always hated bandwagon fans. What do I do though? Do I continue to support a football program even though I can't stand the way or direction that it is going which is a direct result of a holier than though Coach, or am I justified in changing my allegiance to a program that I have hated over the years for no other reason than the fact thay they were the rival of my favorite team, because I believe they are doing it the right way, I love the fact that it is not being run by religion and it better fits my way of thinking in how a college football program should be run? Or do I just pull my unwavering support from BYU, give up the season tickets, not buy season tickets to the U in changing allegiances to them, and just not have a Utah football program that I support over the other and just cheer for both teams with no real allegiance to either one?

I would really like some feeback on what you all think is acceptable as far as being a fan and being able to change or not change allegiances.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Good read. I would not hate a lot of Y players and their fans if they were more like you and some other forum members, but most make me sick for many reasons you posted above, hollier than thou. I know most never say it, but they don't have to.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Your discussion to me is one of great interest. Not that the focus is BYU - in all reality, you could insert any college into it. As every college has a primary function - education. Sports are secondary. You could be a fan of Ohio State, Notre Dame, Utah, or College of Southern Idaho - as an institution. That is the alumni connection - to the university. Sports teams are peripheral to that. We are talking about amateur sports teams here. And we know how much support other amateur sports -- minor league baseball and hockey in our area get splitter support at best. But the connection to a school is bigger. 

If you separate yourself from the university - no matter the school - and look only at the sports program, of course you want that to be the top priority. If that is all that matters, there are plenty of schools where football is THE top 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 priorities. Ohio State. Florida. USC. Nebraska. Texas. Oklahoma. Michigan. Penn State. Any SEC school. Choose any one of those teams that suits your fancy and view it for what it is - bottom tier NFL team without a salary cap. If all you care about is sports and they way the team is managed, I have to say it would be exceptionally hard to be a BYU fan. They go against all other convention - ESPECIALLY the way Mendenhall runs things. 

But schools like BYU, Stanford, the service acadamies, and others see things differently. Sports teams are one tool that is part of the university experience, but certainly not the pinnacle. BYU wants to be different than a lower tier NFL team. It isn't greater than thou, it isn't putting others down - they just have a different mission or idea of what they are about. 

I like BYU for a variety of reasons. I like the university and absolutely enjoyed getting two degrees fromm there. I am fully invested in the university first, sports teams second. I enjoy BYU sporting events becausee I don't have to put up with drunk fans and can enjoy a good day at the game. If winning a national championship were the only thing important to me, I would not be a fan of BYU, nor any other MWC, WAC, or MAC school. It isn't the priority, and never will be. Funding levels of the big time sports programs are exponuntially out of wack enough that it will never happen. 

So I guess if that is what you want, then change your allegiance and switch. But on the peripheral, you'll still smile when you see the Cougs win. And that is OK.


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## orvis1 (Sep 7, 2007)

I can understand how you feel, I have the same problem with Notre Dame. They are expected to compete with schools that have very low academic requirements and the university of Notre Dame has such strict entrance requirments to get it. It is tough to find world class athletes that have faith, smarts, and NFL football skills. It pains me to see them be so average year in and year out. Now add that to my cowboys and what a circus act that is and you can see how I have football ulsers. I am staying loyal to my teams even though some (pro) think I am of lower intelligence because of it. It's o.k. to like the U and wish BYU well lots of Ute fans do, but come rivalry week you have to pick a camp and stick with it. Does this mean that I don't get another chance to win a free fishing trip from you next year?


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

orvis1 said:


> I can understand how you feel, I have the same problem with Notre Dame. They are expected to compete with schools that have very low academic requirements and the university of Notre Dame has such strict entrance requirments to get it. It is tough to find world class athletes that have faith, smarts, and NFL football skills. It pains me to see them be so average year in and year out. Now add that to my cowboys and what a circus act that is and you can see how I have football ulsers. I am staying loyal to my teams even though some (pro) think I am of lower intelligence because of it. It's o.k. to like the U and wish BYU well lots of Ute fans do, but come rivalry week you have to pick a camp and stick with it. Does this mean that I don't get another chance to win a free fishing trip from you next year?


No wonder your ice fishing sucks and you think God doesn't want you to ice fish-------- you are a Friday fish stick eating Notre Dame fan-------- son you know the almighty wears an old white T shirt on Saturday and still calls himself Woody Hayes.. J/K


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

It's not life and death. Don't look at it so seriously. I can be a fan of all the Utah based colleges and universities. If it's all that serious, then you will be frustrated. First and foremost sports is just a game. I do think Bronco needs to get a little more involved with the motivation of players.

Now, having said that, here is my take. Even the Church tells us that we need to put into perspective everything in life. They teach that your family comes first, then depending on your station in life, it's schooling or employment. If your job is to coach BYU fottball, then you should put that as a top priority right after your family. That is how you provide for your family and you should do your best. Best in sports is measured by winning. That's the bottom line. 

He must be careful, however. Remember Roger Reid, the basketball coach? He put together one of the longest winning streaks in BYU history. I think he had 5 or 6 straight 20 win seasons, which was the measuring stick of a great program back then. My understanding is that some of the players didn't like him and when he started to tell the new recruits that if they didn't come to BYU they were letting down the whole membership of the Church...well, then they figured he crossed the line and his demise was eminent.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

Stay calm, take some deep breaths. Things will be better. College football is very fickle. BYU will be back on top... I promise.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

idiot with a bow said:


> Stay calm, take some deep breaths. Things will be better. College football is very fickle. *BYU will be back on top*... I promise.


So that is BYU's preferred sex position, I always assumed it was the missionary position! :shock: :mrgreen: :lol:


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I feel your pain.... :lol: Something needs to change because its been forever since my favorite school has seen the light of day it seems like.


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## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

fatbass said:


> GaryFish, I think you are making some broad accusations of SEC schools. The University of Alabama has been named one of the nation's top 50 public universities by U.S. News & World Report for seven consecutive years. With seven USA Today Academic All-Americans this year, their six-year total of *31 tops all other colleges and universities*.
> Great colleges produce more than great students OR great football teams. Some can do both.
> 
> *UintaMan, you ARE going nuts! :mrgreen:*




LMAO, I think this is the best statement of them all!!! Everyone makes very good points for sure. I don't think I will ever be able to not cheer for BYU, I'm just not sure I will continue to contribute as near as much as I have in the past because I'm not on board with Bronco at this point. I'm sure that can change, only time will tell. It is funny though how it has all turned out. I have gained a lot of respect for the U and Kyle and sadly lost a little for Bronco and The people running the BYU football program! I think the whole be a fan of all the in State schools is a great idea!


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## copper (Sep 11, 2008)

With Austin Collie gone, the Lord won't be showing up in the stands rooting for him anymore.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I couldn't even go to BYU because of the honor code and I still root for them. My roommates in college were on the Utah State basketball team and I had to tell them I was rooting for them in every game except against BYU. I wound up getting a minor and an endorsement through BYU and I hated even stepping on campus because I felt out of place there. Uintaman, it's not so easy to quit the Cougs, but thinking of changing to Ute red is just wrong in so many ways _/O *\-\* ! Get ahold of yourself, man! Become an Aggie or follow some out of state team. I used to wear a Notre Dame hat all the time because I once went to a game there and even though I was fan of the opponent, I was showered with kindness, dignity, and respectfully good-natured ribbing. Try going to a Ute game wearing BYU gear. I did it once and was showered with food and drink, sworn at, had an entire restroom full of men yelling at me and threatening a swirlie while I tried to do my business, and I was even challenged to a fight. The Utah fans I experienced do not reflect the classy nature of their coach. I don't think you could live with yourself, Uintaman, as a turncoat. Don't do it!


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## Kraken (Jan 16, 2009)

I agree with BirdDogger. Im not a college sports fan, but I've been rooting for a team my whole life who never seems to fail to disappoint (Chargers). I have said many times that Im done watching football, because I've been so furious at that team. But the only way I could possibly ever switch teams is if they pulled a move like the Oilers did, move to a nother city AND change the team name. At that point I would be teamless. Short of that, my allegience is with my team, through the good and the bad. Hell, a buddy of mine is a Lions fan. And _he's_ not switching.


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## buggsz24 (Mar 18, 2008)

idiot with a bow said:


> College football is very fickle. BYU will be back on top... I promise.


Oh yeah I can just see that happening :roll:

Their recruiting methods haven't gotten any better.
Their reputation sure took a beating against +.500 teams 
The coach can't make mid game, mid season or mid career adjustments 
Their honor code has only gotten stricter.

Wheres the hope?


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## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

> Oh yeah I can just see that happening
> 
> Their recruiting methods haven't gotten any better.
> Their reputation sure took a beating against +.500 teams
> ...


I agree 496%


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

If following the honor code equates a losing football team, so be it. I'd rather watch an 0-12 team that sticks to the values of the sponsoring university, than a 12-0 team that doesn't. 

But I don't believe it has to be either/or. All the talk about the downfall the BYU football program, especially compared to the U - Since Mendenhall and Whitingham took their perspective jobs, look again at what team has more wins, more 10 win seasons, more average wins, and more conference championships. Once there is a large disparity showing that Mendenhall's methods fail, then we'll talk. 

And where is the hope? The hope is that BYU is not in the headlines for players drugging up teenagers and gang raping them. The hope is that of the 82 kids on the team that will never play in the NFL, they are learning to balance school (and later jobs) with football with family and church (when did that become a bad thing?). The hope is that for six saturdays each fall, I can go to a stadium for a quality entertainment experience without having to deal with a bunch of drunken fools. The hope is that for a football team sponsored by a religious university, the coach isn't "apologizing" for the burden of the honor code. The hope is that I'm not sure when living by a code of honor in any setting was ever a bad thing. The hope is that in my world, personal, professional and in family, a desire to be a more honorable man is something worth striving for.


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## BIGBEAN (Apr 16, 2008)

Well put Garyfish.


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## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

> If following the honor code equates a losing football team, so be it. I'd rather watch an 0-12 team that sticks to the values of the sponsoring university, than a 12-0 team that doesn't.


 :roll:

This is divison 1 college football, not 3A High School football. These players are getting a free ride to a university (that would cost anyone else thousands and thousands of dollars) to perform on the football field. You can look at it as you wish but bottom line is college football is a business.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I guess I am not sure where the social bigotry originated, that people who have any kind of desire to live an honorable life off a football field, are incapable of success on a football field. I find that wholly offensive to quality athletes (at any school or any team anywhere) who live honorable lives off the field. I've never heard a service acadamy apologize for what they stand for. I've never heard other academic schools like Standford or Cal-Berkely apologize for their academic standards. And BYU should never apologize for their honor code. 

And FWIW - BYU's attendence (equates to revenue) has never been lower than when they felt like the honor code was a burden.


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## Comrade Duck (Oct 24, 2007)

Are we talking about the same coach who has 32 wins, 2 conference championships and two bowl wins all within the last three years? Yeah, I can see why you would think of jumping ship. 

Shane


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## buggsz24 (Mar 18, 2008)

You don't have Edward Smith at the helm, but the success you had in the 80's won't be back anytime soon.


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## seniorsetterguy (Sep 22, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> I guess I am not sure where the social bigotry originated, that people who have any kind of desire to live an honorable life off a football field, are incapable of success on a football field. I find that wholly offensive to quality athletes (at any school or any team anywhere) who live honorable lives off the field. I've never heard a service acadamy apologize for what they stand for. I've never heard other academic schools like Standford or Cal-Berkely apologize for their academic standards. And BYU should never apologize for their honor code.
> 
> And FWIW - BYU's attendence (equates to revenue) has never been lower than when they felt like the honor code was a burden.


Bingo! +497%


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

was the code just recently instituted ? It obviously wasn't around when Jim McMahn was the QB.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

There has always been an honor code at BYU - just not enforced. It was pretty much ignored when Crowton was the coach. Mendenhall was given, and is implementing, strict orders to enforce it.


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## seniorsetterguy (Sep 22, 2007)

Let's just start up firebronco.com. The Utes started several fire Kyle websites a couple of years ago and look what happened!!!


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## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

Comrade Duck said:


> Are we talking about the same coach who has 32 wins, 2 conference championships and two bowl wins all within the last three years? Yeah, I can see why you would think of jumping ship.
> 
> Shane


Oh man, you are so right! What was I thinking? Thanks for making me understand! :roll: How is the local trailer park doing in Payson. My brother is a cop down there and he says you guys keep the local police very busy! Are you planning on moving to a double wide anytime soon? :roll:


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## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

For all of you that are proud and happy about Bronco and the way the football program is being run than good for you, more power to you. If it is still your cup of tea then good for you, it's just getting a little sour for me. It's Bronco that I have a problem with, not the team or its players, not the amount of wins they did or didn't have. I have expressed why and what my problems are with Bronco. Like it or not that's the way I feel!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

That's fair enough. I respect that. For me, the day they slip back to ignoring the foundations of what the school is about because they feel the have to let the honor code slide so they can have a better football team, well, that is when I'll get rid of my Cougar Blue.


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## stick_man (Sep 10, 2007)

I think it is great to be a fan of all the "local" schools, but I have never felt that an institution of higher learning should put their primary focus on any of the sports. After all, it is very few college athletes that go on to even play one game in the professional leagues. For most kids, if he is focused on football the entire time he is at a college, it is wasted time. Even if he gets that piece of paper after 4 or 5 years saying he has a college degree, if he didn't pay any attention and had his tutors do all the work for him, the degree will be worthless in the actual workplace. Say a kid has pinned all his hopes on an NFL career and then near the end of his junior or senior season has a career ending injury, what does he have? Even if he gets into the NFL (or NBA or any pro sport), he is only one play away from a change of careers. If his entire college career was only focused on sports, he is suddenly back to square one. In my opinion, if a school has the top priority of anything other than a quality education, it is doing the student a disservice. Believe it or not, and I may get crucified for saying this, there is more to life than football or basketball. All the college and pro sports could go away and life would actually still go on. It may not be as entertaining, but it would continue.

What I would have to ask is, if your kid was going to college and you KNEW he stood very little chance of a professional career in football, would YOU want him to go to a school that had the main focus on football? Or would you want him to go to school where he could play some quality ball and get a good education.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

What stickman said. I agree 100%.


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## Comrade Duck (Oct 24, 2007)

UintaMan said:


> Oh man, you are so right! What was I thinking? Thanks for making me understand! :roll: How is the local trailer park doing in Payson. My brother is a cop down there and he says you guys keep the local police very busy! *Are you planning on moving to a double wide anytime soon?* :roll:


Why, you got one you're trying to sell along with everything else?

This thread was started by the same guy that called out Ute Fans for being bandwaggoners. Follow your instincts dude. You'll fit right in.

Shane


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## seniorsetterguy (Sep 22, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> What stickman said. I agree 100%.


Me too.

Hey, Uintaman...you might look good in red. And when the Utes eventually slip, come on back down south....we'll keep your seat warm for you.


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