# Draw thoughts



## Cold Track (Sep 11, 2007)

Just wondering what some of you think, or know about the draws and what may have changed. I have noticed a heck of a lot of people not getting deer tags. I can understand this in more desired units, but here in the northern units a lot of people aren't drawing whereas you rarely here of people not getting a tag. Also people not drawing Wy with a handful of points. Just want to hete what you all know or think.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Northern Utah is now just experiencing what Southern Utah has had for many years now.


-DallanC


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

My thoughts are the draws sucks, points suck and the system as a whole sucks. -O,-


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There is still close to 2000 tags left over for archery and muzzle loader hunts in Utah with just about all of them in the northern units.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/remaining-permits.html


----------



## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

My sister missed the boat in the Cache unit this year.... She got the Unsuccessful email. I blame option 2 for the limitations imposed on the current draw system. Everyone can still hunt... They just have to go hunt where option 2 dictates they have to hunt.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That sounds like something that they need to change, with 344 archery tags left over that will turn into ML tags and then some person that didn't even put in for the draw will get one when they turn into rifle tags.


----------



## itchytriggerfinger (Sep 12, 2007)

My guess is that most of those archery tags will be gone before they "turn into" muzzle loader tags. Lots of guys will get them to just hunt theme extended


----------



## bloodtrail (Sep 20, 2007)

The problem is that some elitist trophy only hunting groups have convinced the State to manage a lot of the areas for 18 or more bucks per 100 instead of the 15:100 that the biologists say is healthy. There are a lot fewer tags in the areas that the majority of people want to hunt.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

bloodtrail said:


> The problem is that some elitist trophy only hunting groups have convinced the State to manage a lot of the areas for 18 or more bucks per 100 instead of the 15:100 that the biologists say is healthy. There are a lot fewer tags in the areas that the majority of people want to hunt.


Actually, almost all of the current 18-20 ratio units already had buck/doe ratios above 18. It's the units that were below 12 for many years, that are now seeing improvements.


----------



## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Ridge,
You are correct. However reality is not as popular as pinning everything on certain groups.

Nab,
Blame the lose of 600,000+ mule deer in the state of Utah on your sister not getting a tag. Look at the root of the problem not the result.

Personally I think Utah has a very good draw system. Sure there are some holes but overall it is pretty good.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Hunting resourses are LIMITED ...

The demand is much higher than resoures avalible ...

There-fore, we have a draw ...

And as 73 pointed out, for the most part, a very good draw system at that .IMO.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

New draw system keeps me from going around my honey holes, so I was forced to find a new setup. Somewhere I never hunted before. I love it now though!

Only problem with opt 2 is the loophole that allows point building. For GS, there shouldn't be preference points OR they should disappear when you draw any hunt, IMO. That would keep from having point issues.


----------



## GBell (Sep 2, 2013)

The point system needs to go. 

We aren't managing our herds for the 
Benefit of our herds, we're managing for
Max point holders, conservation tags and
A group of guys from the peoples republic
Of southern Utah that are convinced that 
Bucks give birth. 

Dump the points and go to a straight luck of
The draw system.


----------



## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Here goes,, Haven't changed my mind. Still a LOAD OF CRAP. Drawing for a General Archery Deer Tag.. Last week I read 3000 youth tags left...Ya think at age 69 I could get an old mans tag General Archery Deer Tag for Boulder, Parker Kaparowitz??


----------



## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Bucksnort1 said:


> Last week I read 3000 youth tags left...


There was good intentions but not much thought behind designating so many youth archery tags. Kids can't hunt without a mentor and there just aren't that many bowhunting mentors.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

GBell said:


> Dump the points and go to a straight luck of
> The draw system.


As long as the luck of the draw system were done correctly. Trust me, you do NOT want a draw system like NM. You may never, ever go again...


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

We have a great draw system in Utah. You have a better chance at drawing with points, but still a chance to draw with less or no points, some states you might not ever draw with no points or have no chance of drawing until you have max points. It's a good way to do it. You aren't charged until you draw your tag which I like. You can't draw a tag every year, there isn't enough animals for everyone to have whatever tag they want every year. There are plenty of left over tags on some units, BUY ONE instead of complain that you didn't draw. Option 2 doesn't dictate where you hunt, the unit YOU choose dictates where you hunt, so blame yourself. Option 2 is a good hunter management plan, we still haven't figured out how to please everyone and create and endless resource of wildlife, sorry.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

http://wildlife.utah.gov/remaining-permits.html

Here you go, didn't draw a tag, they go on sale in just a few weeks, buy you one.


----------



## GBell (Sep 2, 2013)

You are missing my point 1-I

What if it turns out that in order to help the deer herd
We need to kill a few more elk?? This means more LE elk hunters
Killing more bulls. How's a guy that's been waiting for
18 years going to react to this change?


----------



## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

My first complaint is the draw system was initiated 20 years ago by "sportsmen" groups to "bring back the herd." It didn't work as well as we hoped, so we did more of the same. 

My second complaint is the has made hunting in Utah fundamentally more expensive. A deer tag cost $15 when the draw system started. Now a draw fee for one hunt is $10 plus you have to buy a small game license first. It costs more just to apply. My age group is raising teenagers now. The application fees add up quick.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Provider, perhaps you need to involve your teenagers in the purchasing or draw process for the tags that they want to put in for by having them put the money up for them.

When I first started deer hunting a combo license was around $15.00 and if you put in for a draw such as a elk or bison then you had to have that money up front. That $15.00 that I had to come up with every year came from mowing 15 lawns where I got $1.00 each for and I don't even remember what I had to come up with or a elk or bison tag that I put in for also. I knew better than even asking my parents for that money. Perhaps this is where the younger generation gets the entitled to a tag idea. 

The draws and points are a double edged sword. I have found that those that like the way that Utah does it with bonus points have been one of the lucky ones that have drawn a tag way before they should of or have drawn multiple tags before someone has drawn their first for the same animal in the same unit and hunt. I have seen that happen a few times, even with waiting periods. 

I personally still like the way that Colorado does it with preference points. You need X amount of points to draw a tag. There are no doe or cow points but deer and elk points only along with no general season preference points for deer and bonus points for LE hunts. Take up archery and you can hunt deer and elk every year in Colorado in some very good units along with building preference points for a high point area or hunt. You can also build points and do a rifle hunt for elk in some great units. But if you put in for a doe or a cow in the draw as a first choice and draw all your points are gone, whether you had 1 point or 20. Granted Colorado has a lot more deer and the largest elk herd in the US but they also have 6 different hunting seasons if you include archery and muzzle loader and a lot more hunters than any other western state.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

GBell said:


> You are missing my point 1-I
> 
> What if it turns out that in order to help the deer herd
> We need to kill a few more elk?? This means more LE elk hunters
> ...


I do not believe elk are a legitimate limiting factor on deer. Elk are just the only animal that for some reason in this day and age are least effected by the changes happening around them. Deer are struggling from other reasons elk are just doing well. Are we going to blame elk for moose declines as well? No elk are not the problem so cutting our elk herd back to nothing isn't going to save our deer herds. I don't think anything will change too much as far as LE elk anyway. If it does they will slowly just add more and more tags over the years so it eases out those with points.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

provider said:


> My first complaint is the draw system was initiated 20 years ago by "sportsmen" groups to "bring back the herd." It didn't work as well as we hoped, so we did more of the same.
> 
> My second complaint is the has made hunting in Utah fundamentally more expensive. A deer tag cost $15 when the draw system started. Now a draw fee for one hunt is $10 plus you have to buy a small game license first. It costs more just to apply. My age group is raising teenagers now. The application fees add up quick.


I get tired of paying the app fees as well but at least most of it is going back to the cause. I can see how it can really add up , but at some point kids should learn to work for there own fee. Society now is in the automatic approach , there aren't the same struggles and accomplishment. If you work for it you debt yourself to have whatever you want, if you don't work for it the government will pay for things for you. Struggling a little and having to work for things is a good thing , and it's something that doesn't happen as often anymore.


----------



## GBell (Sep 2, 2013)

Ok, so figure a houndsman, that's been waiting
To draw and doesn't want any more hunters in the
Hills chasing his cats. Figure the same elk hunter that
Applies for 20 years that writes a negative report cause
He couldn't kill a 350 bull from his ATV. 

Points build an entitlement class that NOBODY in this
State will offend. We all believe, like rats in a maze,
That if we keep following the red light that eventually
We'll all get the cheese. 

Points and wealth tags prevent more management than 
Any other aspect in hunting in Utah.


----------



## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

It hasn't hit me yet. My oldest just turned 12 this year. I have friends that have 3 teenagers. 

I agree kids need to earn money. (My 12 year old just started a weeding / pet care business and had her first job today!); however, I'm not going to dictate that she pay $25 in application & license fees so maybe she can spend another $35 on a tag. If a kid puts in for anterless, general, and limited entry it can really add up. 

The point is, the point system is far more expensive for hunters than the previous system - regardless if a kid or parent pays. 8)


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

provider said:


> It hasn't hit me yet. My oldest just turned 12 this year. I have friends that have 3 teenagers.
> 
> I agree kids need to earn money. (My 12 year old just started a weeding / pet care business and had her first job today!); however, I'm not going to dictate that she pay $25 in application & license fees so maybe she can spend another $35 on a tag. If a kid puts in for anterless, general, and limited entry it can really add up.
> 
> The point is, the point system is far more expensive for hunters than the previous system - regardless if a kid or parent pays. 8)


Yes but everything is more expensive now. It's the same logic with the duck stamp, how can you keep the price the same when everything else has doubled or tripled in price? Expenses have gone up so the price has to go up.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

-O\\__- Same ol thread... Lets stop talking about LE for ten seconds guys... "Preference point" is a new discussion


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In 1995 my new Chevy cost 24K

In 2013 my new Chevy cost 40K

How can people NOT expect hunting costs to rise ????????????


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Well Goofy.....it's the law of diminishing returns. The price hasn't gone up because the value has gone down. I would pay $1000.00 for a general tag if the hunting was comparable to 1955. For today's conditions, I think $40.00 is pretty close......but possibly on the rise!------SS


----------



## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

In 1977 I special ordered a new Chev pick up that cost me $7000, and it was loaded. 400 motor, automatic, cruise control, dual tanks, beer window, rally rims, The whole bit. That included tax and lisc fees. Gas was 45 cents gallon. My Dad said I would never be able to afford the gas for it.........
As Goofy said: Everything has gone up. 
It's all relative.
(That was a great truck, kept it 26 years)


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I like the way Utah does the LE and OIL draws. It strikes a balance between the straight preference points and no point, just luck systems. 

The preference point system for deer needs to work like antlerless. If you draw, no matter what choice it was, you go back to zero. Other than that, I support Utah's system. 

PS- the only tag I've ever drawn besides general deer and cow elk is my Pauns tag I got when I dropped $20 at the Expo for the first time. So I'm not a shining example of how the draw has benefitted some more than others.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Springville Shooter said:


> Well Goofy.....it's the law of diminishing returns. The price hasn't gone up because the value has gone down. I would pay $1000.00 for a general tag if the hunting was comparable to 1955. For today's conditions, I think $40.00 is pretty close......but possibly on the rise!------SS


Well, sort of. It is more like the law of supply and demand. The price of a tag is the equilibrium point. Diminishing returns only applies the first time someone draws the tag. If diminishing returns were in effect, nobody would ever apply again once they have drawn for any hunt since the price they pay is the highest they are willing to pay and everything else beyond that should go down for them. If quality has gone down without an increase in price, that is essentially the exact opposite of diminishing returns. It would be easier to draw if diminishing returns were truly in effect.

Now, if the Fed would quit printing excessive money, price levels would remain constant (ie reduce the effect of inflation).


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Deal with all the other western states hunting draws,

THEN YOU will realize and learn Utah's system is pretty darn GOOD :!:.


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

++++1 goofy elk been doing that and overall utahs not at all bad in comparison. utahs like most other mule deer hunting states with the herds not doing well the law of supply versus demand comes into play this is my year to sit it out. I would love to be able to be on the hunt for the mulies at home but looks like I will settle for a over the counter elk and watch the luckier members of our group chase deer. while I cannot speak for the whole state the bucks on our home unit are doing better and were starting to see a increase in the age structure.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Mack,

COULDN'T AGREE MORE !!!!

Every unit I've ventured into this years is showing improvments with deer herds
AND age structure------AWESOME TO SEE!

IMO, The Uintas deer herd improvment is almost shocking since 2011..

It's good to see the draws working in a fachion that on many units, is helping
the quality of deer hunting improve on general hunts.


----------



## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

I realize the concept of inflation. The draw system is far more expensive to administer than the previous system. That is one of two reasons I don't like it.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

provider said:


> I realize the concept of inflation. The draw system is far more expensive to administer than the previous system. That is one of two reasons I don't like it.


Would you rather have the convenience of a draw system and get a tag every other year, or would you rather set up camp at Walmart or on your computer screen where there system is freezing up hoping that you get a tag in a mass rush of buyers before there gone? Not everyone can have a tag every year unless you're willing to buy a tag for a different unit with leftovers.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

But it still isn't fare purchasing a tag on a computer or standing in line. There are still those out there that don't use a computer or have the time to go stand in line in the hopes of getting a tag. 

Sometimes life just isn't fare.


----------



## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

Seems to work okay for elk. 

I get it. Some of you guys LOVE the draw system and the fees. I'll be quiet now so you can feel better.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

provider said:


> Seems to work okay for elk.
> 
> I get it. Some of you guys LOVE the draw system and the fees. I'll be quiet now so you can feel better.


No reason to be quiet. This isn't something where there is a factual right or wrong way to do it. It all is going to be according to individual preference. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.


----------



## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

mack1950 said:


> . I would love to be able to be on the hunt for the mulies at home but looks like I will settle for a over the counter elk and watch the luckier members of our group chase deer.


good luck, better have a fast internet provider and quick fingers to get your over the counter elk tag this year. I will be racing you along with everyone else that didn't draw out this year. I prodick that the over counter elk tags will sale out fast this year.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

BROWN BAGGER said:


> good luck, better have a fast internet provider and quick fingers to get your over the counter elk tag this year. I will be racing you along with everyone else that didn't draw out this year. I prodick that the over counter elk tags will sale out fast this year.


you really think they'll sell out in the first day?
I'm willing to bet they won't. 
I don't even think they'll sell out in July.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I'll put a wager they won't sell out til AT LEAST September ...

Two years ago they didn't even sale all the any-bull tags ...


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

2 years ago I bought a muzzy any bull 2 days into the hunt... Last year everyone's draw dropped when they sold out. I think it will be September for the sell out. September 19th if I have to put a date.


----------

