# 7mm rem mag and advertised velocities



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I have been reading on the internet (so it must be true!) that the 7mm rem mag is nothing more than a loud .270 and that it often falls well short of the velocities many companies claim their 7mm rem mag loads will produce. I saw a poster on a different forum saying that he can get similar weight .30-06 loads go just as fast as his 7mm rem mag loads and his 7 mag is now for sale. I know there are a few 7mm rem mag fans here. What do you guys make of all this? Here's another question: How would a 24" barrel '06 compare with a 24" 7mm rem mag? Enough of a performance increase to jump up to the 7mm rem mag? Keep in mind I'm asking this question as a guy who does not reload.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I will agree that the published velocities are usually quite a bit more than what you will actually see out of a field rifle but not to those extremes. A .30-06 would be pushing it a ways to achieve the same velocities that the 7mm Rem Mag does even with the same weight bullet. 

It is a lot like the guy that says that all you ever would need for a hunting rifle is a .30-30 and that it is just as good as a .300 magnum.


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

I feel with SAMMI specs you are not realizing the potential of any caliber with factory loaded ammo.
Doesn't mean thats a bad thing. Any of the calibers you mentioned will harvest all big game species here in Utah and none of them will miraculously harvest game with exceptional velocities with poor shot placement.
If you get a gun/caliber that you like and feel good about then become familiar and proficient with it there is not an animal on the hill that will stand a chance with you after him.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

One of the rules of ballistics that not many people understand is that when you have two bullets of different diameters but equal weight, the one with the larger diameter will go faster than the one with the smaller diameter in the same size case. It is reasonable that a 150 grain bullet from a 30-06 can be loaded as fast as a 150 grain bullet in a 7mm Mag. A more valid comparison would be bullets of like sectional density. A 130 grain .277 is equal to a 140 grain .284 is equal to a 155 grain 308 and so on.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> It is a lot like the guy that says that all you ever would need for a hunting rifle is a .30-30 and that it is just as good as a .300 magnum.


A 30/30 is every bit as effective at 50 yards as a 300 magnum at 400.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Loke said:


> A 30/30 is every bit as effective at 50 yards as a 300 magnum at 400.


That is true but there are those out there that believe that it shoots like a 300 magnum at the same ranges.

After all they are both .30 calibers.


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

It's my understanding that a 7mm magnum loses a lot of its advantages compared to a .270 when you're dealing with a short barrel length. I have read (and therefore am not speaking from personal experience) that they really don't shine without a 24+ inch barrel to take advantage of all of the extra powder. Just a thought. 

However, at the very least, you still have essentially a .280 rem if your 7 mag isn't reaching its full potential, and I can't say that is inherently a bad thing.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

fishreaper said:


> It's my understanding that a 7mm magnum loses a lot of its advantages compared to a .270 when you're dealing with a short barrel length. I have read (and therefore am not speaking from personal experience) that they really don't shine without a 24+ inch barrel to take advantage of all of the extra powder. Just a thought.
> 
> However, at the very least, you still have essentially a .280 rem if your 7 mag isn't reaching its full potential, and I can't say that is inherently a bad thing.


While the .280 Remington is a great cartridge in its own right, I can't say that I completely agree. If I have a magnum rifle that is supposed to be getting magnum velocities and all it ends up being is a glorified .280 remington then I think that is very disappointing. I am intrigued by the 7mm rem mag and I am kind of interested in getting one but if it is only getting .270/.280/.30-06 performance then I don't see the point.

I realize that the 7 mag has to have a 24" + barrel to get the magnum performance but the vast majority of rifles in this chambering I have seen do have a pipe that long. It seems like it would be rare to see a magnum with a <24" barrel. I never hear anyone poo pooing the performance of the .300 win mag and saying that it is just a loud .30-06 so I'm not sure why I hear people saying the 7mm rem mag is just a loud .270 win. Can any of you guys who have 7mm rem mags and chronos weigh in on this? What kinda velocity are you getting out of your 7mm rem mag factory loads? Hand loads?


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

Never shot factory loads out of mine but I'm getting 2975 with 168 gr VLD bullets with 69.0 grains of retumbo. I've shot 71.5 grains with no pressure signs but enjoy the accuracy and mild recoil at 69.0.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Out of my gun, Barnes advertised 2950 for a 160 gr. TSX bullet. I am getting exactly that.
The Doubletap 160 gr. accubond advertised 3050 and I'm getting 2920 with those bullets. 
I'm shooting a Weatherby Mark 5 accumark with 26" barrel.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

My numerous 7mm mags have gotten 3200 with 140's, 3100 with 150's, and 3000 with 160's. Head and shoulders over anything I've seen out of a 270, 280, or 06. My experience is that 270's generally shoot 130's at 3050, 280's shoot 150's at 2900, and the 06 shoots 165's at 2850. Pretty clear to me that the advantage is considerable. Not even the highly touted, ultra sexy, 280 Ackley can realistically match 7mm magnum performance. 

People say a lot of things regarding guns and ammunition that simply aren't true. I think that the biggest truth is that most people can't shoot well enough to need more than a 270 so to them the extra performance offered by the 7mm magnum and it's ultra high coefficient bullets is wasted on account of their limited marksmanship.--------SS


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

You must have a small head. I am getting 3150 with a 130 TSX in my son's 270 Win. His has a 24" barrel. In mine with a 22" barrel, the same load is averaging in the 3100 range. I was getting over 3000 with a Hornady 140 BTSP. 
50 - 100 fps and 10 grains of bullet weight are inconsequential in real world applications.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> My numerous 7mm mags have gotten 3200 with 140's, 3100 with 150's, and 3000 with 160's. Head and shoulders over anything I've seen out of a 270, 280, or 06. My experience is that 270's generally shoot 130's at 3050, 280's shoot 150's at 2900, and the 06 shoots 165's at 2850. Pretty clear to me that the advantage is considerable. Not even the highly touted, ultra sexy, 280 Ackley can realistically match 7mm magnum performance.
> 
> People say a lot of things regarding guns and ammunition that simply aren't true. I think that the biggest truth is that most people can't shoot well enough to need more than a 270 so to them the extra performance offered by the 7mm magnum and it's ultra high coefficient bullets is wasted on account of their limited marksmanship.--------SS


Thanks for the hard and fast info, SS. What barrel length on your 7mm rem mag?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

The same argument that Loke uses can be applied to the 308/30-06, 30-06/300win, 300win/300RUM, and so on and so forth. Performance in guns is like performance in cars, you have to invest a lot to get a little. If it's worth it to you then go for it. If not, pick ANY modern cartridge because it will perform fine in "real world applications". Make yourself into a crack shot and it won't really matter what you shoot because a well placed bullet out of any modern cartridge will kill anything you shoot with it. If everyone felt this way you probably wouldn't sell many guns Loke.

One reason that I often go with "bigger" cases is that I can get the performance that I want with lower pressure loads. I shoot a 7mm Dakota because I wanted to shoot 160 grain bullets at 3100 FPS. Sure, some 7mm Rem Mags can do that with red hot loads. I shoot an easy load out of the Dakota and get 3150. It's really accurate and easy on my brass. I notice that a lot of guys redline their equipment to eke out every little bit of performance often at the cost of accuracy, wear and tear, and sometimes even safety. Reality and physics dictate that a 270 is not a 7MM mag. You just have to decide if the difference is worth the cost.------SS


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Thanks for the hard and fast info, SS. What barrel length on your 7mm rem mag?


I've had 24's, 25's, and 26's. I like 25" the best.-------SS


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

The truth is, the long range and hunting market is not where the sales are. Mostly ARs and Mosins. There are a few newbies to the long range game that want to trade in their 30-06 on a 308 so they can shoot farther. :shock: Not too many want to study ballistics, and really see what the real differences are between the 25-06 and 25 WSSM. Newer must be better or they wouldn't have made it, right? When you look at the history of a lot of the old cartridges, you will find that most were developed for a specific purpose. The new ones are designed to sell more guns. Not that I'm complaining that people should want to buy more guns. But you will never convince me that a 26 Nosler will do anything that a 264 Winchester hasn't been doing since 1958. (except sell more guns).


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Since we are getting into the discussion of what can the super hot, new cartridges do that the new one's cant, I'll relay a little experience that has made me start looking into the whole magnum scene after hunting with a good ol' .30-06 since I was 14. It has to do with an elk hunt my brother and I went on.

Now the last couple years I have successfully taken bull elk with my dad's .300 win mag. These were my first two elk. I never took any elk with my .30-06 due to the fact that I just never had the opportunity to while the .30-06 was in my hands. I would have been using my '06 on these elk but that particular gun has been having some technical difficulties I need to have worked out by gunsmith. I took both of my bulls with that .300 win mag at a distance of about 75 yards. The .300 win mag did nothing on these bulls that my '06 wouldn't have been able to do just as well. A .308, .270, or even smaller probably would have done the trick spectacularly as well. The experience that made me want to go magnum happened a year or two earlier on an elk hunt my brother accompanied me on.

We hiked way back into a remote spot far from roads or trails that the elk tend to run to after the opening weekend massacre to hide out from all the hunters. When we arrived back in our spot we spotted a 5 point bull waaaay up on an oak and juniper covered hillside. We had my brother get in a prone shooting position and take a dead rest on our hunting packs. We didn't have a range finder to tell us how far away this bull was, but we knew that it was a pretty far poke and we decided to have him hold the crosshairs right on top of the bulls back. He squeezed off the trigger and his .270 WSM hit the bull with a very audible WHACK! and to use the parlance I have been seeing on UWN lately that elk was absolutely thunder dicked! When we went up and examined the bull we found that his top of the back hold dropped that 130 BT from the .270 WSM right into the bottom of the heart.

I deferred the shot to my brother for a few different reasons: 1) I had killed my best buck ever on the ML hunt earlier that year and decided it would only be fair to let my brother have a crack at a big game animal now. 2) My brother was the one to spot the bull so etiquette dictates that he would get first crack on it anyway. 3) At the distance we saw that bull I had a lot more confidence in the laser-like trajectory of his .270 WSM than I did in my pokey, old .30-06.

There really would have been no getting closer to this bull. This was middle of the general season rifle elk hunt so this bull was on high alert. He had us pegged and was up a steep and very thick hillside from us. It was truly shoot from here or do not take the shot at all. I know some will argue that there is nothing wrong with not taking the shot at all and that is why they call it hunting and not shooting/killing. However, opportunities for my brother and I (and most people in general) on OTC any bull elk have been SLIM! This was actually the very first bull either of us had ever been able to kill in over a decade of hunting. I was glad we took the shot and made it happen. If I would have taken the same shot with the same hold with my '06 the result would have been a bullet in the dirt underneath the elk somewhere. I guess a range finder and an intimate knowledge of my '06's trajectory could have helped. But a magnum will allow for less compensation and deliver more energy to the target.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

My buddy and I have shot elk and deer side-by-side for years. The animals are always just as dead with a bullet from my 280 or his 7mag-- close and far..... Know your rifle and you'll be better off than a "hope and prayer". 

SS- 280ai sexy? What? That fat and stubby necked thing is sexy? hahaha As long as it has 280 in the title, you are ok by me. I like the sound of a 280 Dakota......


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Packout said:


> My buddy and I have shot elk and deer side-by-side for years. The animals are always just as dead with a bullet from my 280 or his 7mag-- close and far..... Know your rifle and you'll be better off than a "hope and prayer".
> 
> SS- 280ai sexy? What? That fat and stubby necked thing is sexy? hahaha As long as it has 280 in the title, you are ok by me. I like the sound of a 280 Dakota......


Just when I think I have finally talked myself into a magnum some dude from the internet comes along and says something like this! I guess if I ever pull the trigger on buying that magnum I'm going to have to admit to myself that I'm not doing it out of necessity...or am I...


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Colorcountry,

I would not purchase a magnum until you have a super accurate standard cartridge that you have mastered. I see all too many guys who jump into a magnum only to develop bad habits thus becoming piss poor shots. A guy who shoots a 270 accurately is way more deadly to any animal than a guy who is a crappy shot with a 300 RUM. I have a Cooper 243 that is my proof rifle. If I start to develop any bad habits, I go back to that rifle and shoot until I can stack bullets. Then I go back to the brutal stuff. After all that, I hunt with a 25-06 every year.......go figure.--------SS


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> Colorcountry,
> 
> I would not purchase a magnum until you have a super accurate standard cartridge that you have mastered. I see all too many guys who jump into a magnum only to develop bad habits thus becoming piss poor shots. A guy who shoots a 270 accurately is way more deadly to any animal than a guy who is a crappy shot with a 300 RUM. I have a Cooper 243 that is my proof rifle. If I start to develop any bad habits, I go back to that rifle and shoot until I can stack bullets. Then I go back to the brutal stuff. After all that, I hunt with a 25-06 every year.......go figure.--------SS


So much wisdom in that post. I've always said the most deadly caliber you could hunt big game with is the biggest one you can handle well. If it's a 22-250 or a 300Wby then that's the one you should hunt with. Nothing bigger.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Packout;1137329
SS- 280ai sexy? What? That fat and stubby necked thing is sexy? hahaha As long as it has 280 in the title said:


> Come on Packout, you've met me before. why would it surprise you that I like a fat case with a stubby neck? We do tend to gravitate toward things that resemble ourselves I guess!:mrgreen::mrgreen:-------SS


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> Colorcountry,
> 
> I would not purchase a magnum until you have a super accurate standard cartridge that you have mastered. I see all too many guys who jump into a magnum only to develop bad habits thus becoming piss poor shots. A guy who shoots a 270 accurately is way more deadly to any animal than a guy who is a crappy shot with a 300 RUM. I have a Cooper 243 that is my proof rifle. If I start to develop any bad habits, I go back to that rifle and shoot until I can stack bullets. Then I go back to the brutal stuff. After all that, I hunt with a 25-06 every year.......go figure.--------SS


I hear you, SS. I've been shooting a couple different .300 win mags the last couple years and one is my dad's Browning BAR and the other is a Winchester Model 70 my wife inherited from her grandpa. I can shoot some pretty nice groups out of the BAR, but I don't shoot nearly as well with the Model 70 even though bolts are supposed to be more accurate than the auto-loaders. If I'm being honest with myself it's probably because the recoil from the auto-loader isn't too bad while the recoil from the bolt gun is pretty stout. I find myself anticipating the recoil when I'm going to shoot the Model 70 and I'm sure that affects my accuracy. I have been shooting a savage model 110 .270 win that I can shoot pretty tight groups with as well even though it is a pre-accu trigger savage and the trigger feels pretty crappy. The trigger on the BAR I shoot well doesn't even have that great of a trigger. If I got a light recoiling gun with a good trigger on it I could probably really shoot that thing well. I should probably just go with the idea that I've been entertaining all along and get my ol' .30-06 fixed up with a 24" barrel and a good quality scope. Then I would have a plenty potent rifle with a trigger that breaks like glass that I could shoot like a guy who actually really knows what he is doing. Wow, look at all that rambling nonsense I just posted. Is anyone awake still?


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

Color,
I shoot a fair bit, not as much as some of the guys on here but your right about getting a gun to shoot well regardless of caliber. 
This year my buddy and I laid down side by side, counted to 3 and dropped two cow elk at 542 yards. I shot the 7mag and him the 270. Two years ago I used his 270 to kill a cow elk at 565. My longest harvest shot to date. 
Though in my opinion you should invest in a rangefinder before dropping coin on a new rifle.


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## reb8600 (Sep 8, 2007)

You are going to find that most calibers will fall short on the published velocities. They are using special test barrels, not the barrels you are using in your guns. There are lots of factors and variables in loading and velocities. Temp, elevation and humidity for just a few. To say the 7mm is just a loud 270 is wrong. You can push a heavier bullet with a 7mm the same speed or faster than a lighter bullet in the 270. I own both calibers and feel they are both good.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Color, 

I was in your same shoes about 10 yrs back. I had hunted with an '06 most of my life but wanted something that I could sight in and know I was GTG out to 350-400 yards. So, I picked up a 300 wsm in a browning x bolt. Due to reloading issues at the time I got rid of it and picked up a 26" 300 wm barrel for my Pro Hunter. Ive got it sighted in with 165gr Accubonds going 3200 fps. 2.5" high at 100 puts me dead nuts at 270 yards -1.8 at 300 and -11.3 at 400. That all sounds good right? Well it would be if I enjoyed shooting it even a little bit.. My point is, like others have said, get a gun you enjoy shooting and master it. If I were to do it all over again I doubt I would buy a 300wm. Chances are I would buy me a 280AI barrel and practice enough to get my groups at 100 under half inch or less. The reality is, a 280AI pushing a 160 AB at 3050, 2.7 inches high at 100 puts you dead nuts at 270 yards, -1.9 at 300 and -11.63 at 400. If energy or "knock down power" is of concern between the two, consider this. The above 300wm load produces 2873 ft lbs of energy at 200 and 2180 ft lbs at 400 vs. 2685 ft lbs at 200 and 2171 ft lbs at 400 from the 280AI. A difference of 188 ft lbs at 200 and 9 at 400. For me, once you compare the recoil of each gun, its a no brainer. Bigger isn't always better.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Bo0YaA said:


> Color,
> 
> I was in your same shoes about 10 yrs back. I had hunted with an '06 most of my life but wanted something that I could sight in and know I was GTG out to 350-400 yards. So, I picked up a 300 wsm in a browning x bolt. Due to reloading issues at the time I got rid of it and picked up a 26" 300 wm barrel for my Pro Hunter. Ive got it sighted in with 165gr Accubonds going 3200 fps. 2.5" high at 100 puts me dead nuts at 270 yards -1.8 at 300 and -11.3 at 400. That all sounds good right? Well it would be if I enjoyed shooting it even a little bit.. My point is, like others have said, get a gun you enjoy shooting and master it. If I were to do it all over again I doubt I would buy a 300wm. Chances are I would buy me a 280AI barrel and practice enough to get my groups at 100 under half inch or less. The reality is, a 280AI pushing a 160 AB at 3050, 2.7 inches high at 100 puts you dead nuts at 270 yards, -1.9 at 300 and -11.63 at 400. If energy or "knock down power" is of concern between the two, consider this. The above 300wm load produces 2873 ft lbs of energy at 200 and 2180 ft lbs at 400 vs. 2685 ft lbs at 200 and 2171 ft lbs at 400 from the 280AI. A difference of 188 ft lbs at 200 and 9 at 400. For me, once you compare the recoil of each gun, its a no brainer. Bigger isn't always better.


The plot thickens. A .30-06 can be rechambered to .280 ackley improved right?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> The plot thickens. A .30-06 can be rechambered to .280 ackley improved right?


No. But it can be rebarreled.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Loke is right on. As an aside, I would choose the standard 280 over the Ackley improved unless you really want to commit to loading for it, or understand that you will be paying top dollar for factory loads. It's a no brainer to me, but just be aware what you are signing up for when you choose a specialty round. Overall my 280AI has been great, but not without some challenges.------SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It is interesting in how some people look at or use the Ackley improved cases or rifles chambered for them. 

When I purchased my .257 Roberts AI the person that I bought it from said that they had 100 factory rounds for it and that there may be a problem with the chamber since the fired case didn't look the same as a unfired factory round but I bit on the sale anyways. 
As it turned out all he was shooting through it was .257 Roberts factory rounds and he had no idea what the AI stood for that was stamped on the barrel after .257 Roberts. The difference in the cases was only the Roberts case being fire formed to the AI version and he had 500 rounds of fired cases for me to take home along with some .257 Roberts reloading dies which he had never used. 

That was the best $50.00 that I have spend in a long time.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> Loke is right on. As an aside, I would choose the standard 280 over the Ackley improved unless you really want to commit to loading for it, or understand that you will be paying top dollar for factory loads. It's a no brainer to me, but just be aware what you are signing up for when you choose a specialty round. Overall my 280AI has been great, but not without some challenges.------SS


I'm aware of what I would be getting into with the Ackley, and I would really think it through before I made a commitment to do that. Reloading may be in my future plans, but we will see. Delving into this avant garde world of AI cartridges, high BC bullets, and reloading would sure be a change of pace from my days of blasting critters with 165 and 180 grain core lokts and power points from a .30-06.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Reloading does open up a whole new world of shooting


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I cant even imagine trying to achieve the same level of accuracy with factory loads that I get from reloads...Going back to "minute of elk" is not an option lol.


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