# Whitetail in Utah



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Just curious what the general feeling is about the Whitetail deer moving in from the north. I have hunted them several times there and noticed that they co-habitate quite nicely with the mule deer and elk. I think that there is alot of habitat here that is ideal for them. With the recent sightings up north, I believe that there will continue to be more and more of these deer each year. I've talked to guys in Idaho and Oregon who have witnessed the recent expansion of whitetails in the west. The consensus in those areas was that nobody wanted them at first, then eventually, everyone appreciated the opportunity that they present to hunters and the pressure that they take off from mule deer during season. What do you guys think?------------SS


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

I agree that eventually the Whitetail will populate those areas up north that suit them. I have no problem with them coming on in if they don't compete with the mulies and occupy their own niche. Also agree it will take a little pressure off the mule deer hunt, but don't expect it to be substantial for a long, long time.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

From the people in Idaho and Oregon that I've talked to, they say that it only took 10-15 years from when the first whitetail started trickling in to when they were well established populations that were huntable with general permits. I have some friends from up in Salmon, ID who witnessed the exansion of whitetails into that area. If they get started, I bet it will go fast. As far as competition with mule deer, they don't seem to have too many issues in the other western states. I've hunted muleys in whitetail areas several times and haven't ever seen what I thought was a cross-breed either.-----------SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bring'em on!


-DallanC


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

I personally know of and have seen 2 whities in Wasatch County already.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Are there any confirmed cases of a whitetail buck being taken on the Utah deer hunt? I think that alot of the country in the Uinta basin would be great for whitetail. Especially between Duchesne and Vernal. I know there are alot of supposed sightings, but I wonder how many whitetail are actually here?------SS


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

I havent heard of any, but the whities I know of they just stay in the valley fields.


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## FSHCHSR (Aug 30, 2008)

According to the herald journal in logan there was a whitetail buck taken this year on the south end of cache valley


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## ktowncamo (Aug 27, 2008)

There has been a whitetail buck in Oakley for a while. I've hunted a spot in Alberta Canada that has whietail and Muley and they seem to do well together with each species favoring certain types of terrain so that nearly all the terrain holds deer of some kind. Hope that happens here in Utah.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I personally do not think there is very much Whitetail habitat in Utah. They don't like deserts or even semi arid habitat, they don't like sage brush or oak brush, they don't like large high mountain areas. They do like wooded areas surrounding open grassy/cultivated fields, they also like riparian areas in farm areas. They are valley loving deer that love to hide up in the timber during the day and move out onto open meadows and farmland at night. I think Whities are far more selective in their choice of habitat than are the very versatile Mule deer. Just my option based of observations, no scientific proofs implied here.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> According to the herald journal in logan there was a whitetail buck taken this year on the south end of cache valley


That makes at least two because my buddy showed me a photo of one his brother killed in Box Elder County.


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## roper (Sep 27, 2010)

There was a whitetail shot in Logan Canyon, I think it was in the top of Blind Hollow/Tony Grove area a few (4-5)years ago. It was taken by a guy that I know. 99.9% sure that this was the first confirmed whitetail kill in Utah. The same guy shot a very large black bear last year in the area south of Beaver Mountain.


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## Winchester (Nov 1, 2010)

Having hunted both species, I can tell you I much prefer the Whitetail in my freezer. The meat is much more palatable. While I enjoy mule deer venison, the whitetail has less of the gamey taste which I suspect is largely due to the diet found in the lowlands, fields and river bottoms they usually hang out in. I would love to see them proliferate here in Utah offering hunters another option besides the Muley. When it comes to hunting deer...it;s the American way.....more is better.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

"I personally do not think there is very much Whitetail habitat in Utah. They don't like deserts or even semi arid habitat, they don't like sage brush or oak brush, they don't like large high mountain areas. "



BP, I would totally agree with you except for the anomly of the western whitetail that are inhabiting the Snake and Salmon river breaks as well as the large, alpine wilderness areas in centeral Idaho. I have hunted these deer five times both on the western and eastern sides of central Idaho. Believe me when I say that the habitat is very similar to what we have here. I've seen them many times on the sage covered upper breaks that look alot like our foothills. I have also taken on at over 6000ft elevation in an alpine basin where there were elk and muledeer present. I'm no biologist, or range expert, but these areas seem to be congruent with north-central Utah. Even though they are not as big as the Salmon and Snake, we do have several rivers that support long tracts of riperian habitat surrounded by farmland that fit that bill also. Who knows for sure.---------SS


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## Jsw (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm not a 100% sure as I could not see everything due to the angle of the picture, however by the coloration on the face and ears and the antlers I'm about 90% sure it was a whitetail. It was showed to me by my brother in law the pic was taken by his uncle from the deck of his cabin down around manti. It looked like it was much smaller than mule deer. Not sure but it sure looked line one.


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

It's just a matter of time. 

Funny the first well documented kill was in Logan canyon around Tonys Grove several years ago. That's proly 9000'.

Several have been shot in northern Utah since, but nothing of any size that I'm aware of.
It appears the dwr pretty much has an under the radar shoot on sight policy, but they're just slowing down the inevitable.

Best thing you can do if you want to see them get established is to keep sightings on the DL. If you don't want them around contact the DWR and they'll come up missing.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I’m curious. What has previously filled the niche these whitetails will be filling? Is there a bunch of feed that is now going to waste because there is nothing to eat it? Is there a new niche? Surely one of the states they have spread to has studied the situation and there are answers out there. If you know please share.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Nortah posted a pic on here of a buck that was definitely a ****** about two years ago, he has moved to AZ, so not likely to have him re-post it now, but someone could search his old posts. I know the farmers have zero desire to have them here, Box Elder County lowlands would be ideal for them, but I sure hope they don't for the farmer's sake. I personally don't care too strongly either way. How do the states/provinces like Alberta, ID, MT and WY handle having both species tag wise? Do you have a tag for one or the other or just a deer tag?

Edit-here is where he posted them, but pics over a year old or so are not kept due to storage size, but here is the info just w/o pics. search.php?keywords=whitetail&terms=any&author=nor-tah&fid[]=8&sc=1&sf=all&sr=posts&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

The division shoots the does on sight so it will be hard for them to get a foot hold in Utah.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> ..........................................How do the states/provinces like Alberta, ID, MT and WY handle having both species tag wise? Do you have a tag for one or the other or just a deer tag?
> ..............................................


Wyoming has a variety of Whitetail and/or Whitetail/Muley deer hunt areas. A lot of whitetail hunting can be had on a General License and additional tags are relatively esay to obtain. Many of the seasons are long, and start, or run, after the Mule Deer seasons.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Mrad said:


> It's just a matter of time.


Let's see, the first Whitetail I saw in Utah was in the early 90's, like '92 or '93. That's 18 or 19 years ago and I'm sure there have been some in Utah before then. So if they haven't "taken over" in the last 18 or 19 years, how much more time before they do? Another 20 years? I'm guessing never.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> The division shoots the does on sight so it will be hard for them to get a foot hold in Utah.


Wow, I wonder if they have a policy backed by scientific data to exterminate these deer, or if they are just doing it on their own or at the request of the farmers? Unless there is a good reason such as issues with local herds, I don't know that extermination of a naturally expanding species that could become a resource benefit for the sportsmen of Utah is the best practice. As far as the farmers, I'm sure that dense whitetail populations take their toll, yet none of the farms in Idaho/Montana are vacant due to whitetail damages. Most big places supplement their incomes with trespass fees. Like Cooky, I just want to see if there is any good data out there and what the general consensus is. I will continue to research and post any good studies that I can find that relate to whitetail expansion in the west.---------SS


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm talking big picture, I'll bet the barn that it's just a matter of time before they get a foot hold. That might be 20 years, or it might be 100. Eventually it's gonna happen.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Being from OK originally, I grew up (and still go back) hunting whitetails. There's no doubt that they are every bit as fun to hunt as muleys...just a different experience. That being said, I applaud the DWR for trying to keep them out of UT. Mule deer have enough competition in this state, and there is no need to add yet another competitor for the limited resources here. Muleys already have to compete elk, moose, and cougars - if you add whitetails to the mix, it's just one more pressure factor that mule deer will have to deal with. It is true that whitetails like the river bottoms and farmland - but so do mule deer. Where do those mulies go that will be outcompeted by whitetails? Answer, to the more marginal habitats - just like they do when elk or moose are in the area. Whitetails are also, by nature, more aggressive and will outcompete mulies when it comes to breeding, and a muley doe bred by a whitetail buck has ZERO chance of survival due to the differences in behavior between the two species. The genes just don't match up...kinda like French royalty in the 16 and 1700s.

So to sum up...there's enough pressure on the mule deer here in UT. No need to add another negative factor to the mix.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Cooky said:


> I'm curious. What has previously filled the niche these whitetails will be filling? Is there a bunch of feed that is now going to waste because there is nothing to eat it? Is there a new niche? Surely one of the states they have spread to has studied the situation and there are answers out there. If you know please share.


The previously filled habitats are many of the lower valley croplands, transition lands, and lower foothills that a couple decades ago, were occupied by mule deer. Over the last 20-30 years, they have become occupied by houses on 5-15 acre lots, pushing out the mule deer that tend to use larger, non-fragmented habitats. Whitetail deer thrive in small pockets of fragmented habitats. Which is why there are more whitetails on the east coast than any of those states can deal with. And hunting in neighborhoods certainly doesn't fly to address the populations. Its why in States like Pennsylvania, you can tag 16 deer a year.

A look at the Cache Valley - the strongest hold of whitetail in the state - and you'll see what I'm talking about. What used to be larger farms that supported lots of mule deer are now chopped up into large-parcel subdivisions. Same thing along the Bear River, and along the Jordan River, Great Salt Lake shoreline, Utah Lake Shoreline, Weber and Provo River corridors - all places with confirmed whitetail sightings.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

read up ***Mule Deer Country by Valerus Geist***

whitie buck aint no good for a mulie buck! they are simply more agressive and will bump them out. one fact being that a mule deer buck will wait for a doe to stand and be bred. the whitetail buck on the other hand will run the poor gal down at the first whif of "time". 

disclaimer: this book isnt at all hunting related but excellent in getting to know the Mule Deer by way of one of the worlds most respected biologists.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> a muley doe bred by a whitetail buck has ZERO chance of survival due to the differences in behavior between the two species. The genes just don't match up...kinda like French royalty in the 16 and 1700s.


Heaven forbid someone use facts over "hearsay"... but the facts show this isnt the case.



> An extensive analysis of 201 deer from 31 locations throughout the southwestern United States by James Derr (Texas A&M University) found very little evidence of recent hybridization (less than 2%). He stated: "&#8230;overall, hybridization does not seem to present a significant threat to the nuclear gene pools, hence the genetic integrity of either species." Scott Ballanger and his coworkers in 1992 analyzed 70 deer from the same West Texas populations as previously analyzed and said: "Therefore the production of first generation hybrids between free-ranging populations of the two species of deer in North America appears to be a rare event. Management recommendations based on the assumption that production of such hybrids is common should be reconsidered."


-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Longgun said:


> read up ***Mule Deer Country by Valerus Geist***
> 
> disclaimer: this book isnt at all hunting related but excellent in getting to know the Mule Deer by way of one of the worlds most respected biologists.


After his book, many studies went out to try and prove / disprove it. Here is a rebuttal:



> In the September 2000 issue of Sports Afield, Valerius Geist published an article titled: "The Vanishing Mule Deer" and therein announced that mule deer were doomed to extinction through hybridization with whitetails. Dr. Geist is a friend and colleague, but I'm not in his camp on this issue. Mule deer in the West are not doing well in some places, but that is not because of hybridization and they are certainly not doomed to extinction.
> 
> Hybridization does occur wherever the two species live together and it usually occurs because of a whitetail buck breeding a mule deer doe. Whitetail bucks are much more aggressive in their breeding behavior and the genetic work supports that this is how most hybridization happens.
> 
> ...


Studies are out there... facts are out there, but it seems more fun to quote what you believe, vs what the facts are showing.

-DallanC


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

They would also only reside on private property that 99% of the public would not be able to hunt. Just think how much it would cost the dwr to pay all the people in the subdivisions when the deer tear up their gardens. The division already has to give out money to every other greedy land owner. 

Besides this state is so anti bow how you going to hunt whitetail deer in subdivisions like you do back east.

It would be a snafu if they ever got a foot hold. Thus the reason the division is shooting the does when they see them.


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## FSHCHSR (Aug 30, 2008)

> Thus the reason the division is shooting the does when they see them


Where did you get vthat info? I know they know of several up here and have done nothing about them


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Studies are out there... facts are out there, but it seems more fun to quote what you believe, vs what the facts are showing.
> 
> -DallanC


nothing fun/funny about it, i was merely quoting what i had read to date about the subject.

Thanks for the update...


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## Wb1247 (May 29, 2011)

I live in Oklahoma and I'm originally from Utah. I've hunted whitetails every year for the last 20 yrs or so. You will find they are the most adaptable deer species. They live in the dry areas, fields, small wood lots, to large woods and high elevations. They are also better eating then a Mule deer. They also will cross breed but it's not that common. If their in Utah, it won't be long before they will continue to spred across the state. I will venture a guess in 20 yrs or so they will populate a good portion of the state.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I witnessed two groups of deer once on the same hillside in Idaho County, Idaho during the November rut. One group had two mule deer bucks and several does. One had a whitetail buck and a whitetail doe. The groups were about 250yards apart, the bucks in both groups were activly pursuing the does, sniffing and lip curling. Yet they paid no attention to the other groups of deer. By my observation, and a couple of the scientific studies sited on this thread, I don't think inbreeding is an issue. Buckmaster brings up a good point about private property distribution and urban management. I hope that the DWR does not pay individual home owners for deer damage to their yards. This is a great discussion in my opinion and I have already learned alot.-------SS


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## Wb1247 (May 29, 2011)

I'm not sure why a whitetail is better eating then a mule deer. But they are defiantly less gamey, maybe it's because we don't have as much sagebrush here. Whatever the reason, they taste better. The only time I can think of that the whitetail is gamey is during the peak of the rut. IMO


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

DallanC said:


> MWScott72 said:
> 
> 
> > a muley doe bred by a whitetail buck has ZERO chance of survival due to the differences in behavior between the two species. The genes just don't match up...kinda like French royalty in the 16 and 1700s.
> ...


If I'm wrong, I'm OK with it. I read what I read 4-5 years ago in a hunting magazine (and honestly don't remember which).

I'm still of the opinion though that genes or no genes, muleys in this state don't need any additional competition. They have enough of that already, and whitetails won't help them out one bit.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Wb1247 said:


> I'm not sure why a whitetail is better eating then a mule deer. But they are defiantly less gamey, maybe it's because we don't have as much sagebrush here. Whatever the reason, they taste better. The only time I can think of that the whitetail is gamey is during the peak of the rut. IMO


I've found there is no difference between a corn fed whitetail and a high country muley. They taste essentially the same. Now if you put that whitetail up against a muley that lives his entire life in the low country desert, that is a different story entirely. Whitetail wins in this scenario every time.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Longgun said:


> DallanC said:
> 
> 
> > Studies are out there... facts are out there, but it seems more fun to quote what you believe, vs what the facts are showing.
> ...


I should clarify I didnt mean "you" as you specifically, but people in general.



MWScott72 said:


> If I'm wrong, I'm OK with it. I read what I read 4-5 years ago in a hunting magazine (and honestly don't remember which).


It was a good article at the time, its just that enough time has passed people have gone ahead and tested it further and found the original premis wasnt exactly true.



MWScott72 said:


> I'm still of the opinion though that genes or no genes, muleys in this state don't need any additional competition. They have enough of that already, and whitetails won't help them out one bit.


Every whitetail deer buck shot is 1 less mule deer buck shot. I'd guess the majority of hunters dont care what they kill, they just want to hunt.

I always believed that higher mule deer populations were artificially inflated with the coming of the white man and settlement of the west. When you read through Lewis and Clarks journals, the earliest record we have of animal populations, they specifically state how "rare" mule deer were compared to other species. We no longer control predators like in the past, increased automotive traffic and developed winter ranges. Deer cannot compete with that and are returning to historic low populations.

-DallanC


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I see whitetail doing well in areas where the mules have been run out by human development. And in those cases, it could create more opportunity that has been lost over the past few decades. 

I too have hunted where the deer share the same habitats. I found the whitetails more easily spooked. When they run off, they run off. They don't stop after 100 yards to turn around and look at you. As far as how they taste - I think any deer are a function of what they eat. The alfalfa fed mule deer I've had have been the best deer I've ever eaten. But I've also eaten mule deer that I could barely choke down. Deer (both types) that feed on crops will taste better than deer that feed primarily on brush. At least in my experience.


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