# Nowhere to Run



## Mr Muleskinner

Read this if you have doubts about global warming and the effects on wildlife.

http://www.nwf.org/~/media/PDFs/Glo...toRun-BigGameWildlife-LowResFinal_110613.ashx


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## alpinebowman

is this talking about the warming that hasn't happened for 15+ years?:shock:


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## stillhunterman

Thanks for the link Mr Muleskinner, interesting read for sure. I've seen a fair share of the same info spattered about here and there in documents put out by state game agencies. They seem to acknowledge changes are taking place, but that is the extent of their willingness to become involved, one way or another.

I wonder if there is such a thing as an organization that is actively on the green side of things while promoting hunting and fishing, and working to help the wildlife and fisheries therein? Wouldn't that be cool8)


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## c3hammer

Mr Muleskinner your kidding right?

If not, you and Lonetree must be smoking the same peyote


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## Mr Muleskinner

No I am not. If sportsmen can sit back and think that megatons of emissions can be dumped into the atmosphere with zero ramifications I think it is a bit blind to say the least. Streams are being polluted. The polar caps are receding. There is garbage left all over place. The ground we hunt, where the animals live is becoming more and more of a wasteland every year. Don't even get me started on landfills, encroachment and roads cutting through land where we don't need so many roads (Wasatch ring a bell?).

I don't believe everything that Lonetree says and I certainly don't agree with his method of drawing attention to the cause but I do think there is a lot of work to be done with the environment. The great outdoors has been taking a beating for too long.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Here is a question for some you.......how long can our streams, lakes and reservoirs survive our storm drain systems? Rubber, pesticides, weed killers, paint, brake dust, oil, gas, antifreeze, plastic, aluminum, glass.


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## alpinebowman

Landfills are a blip on the landscape and the ice caps are growing at the moment. And how about that big oil spill a couple years ago? It was supposed to destroy the ocean for years to come and in a few months the big oil blob was gone. Our time on this earth is such a blip what is normal is change whether humans are here or not. You have to remember far more things are extinct from this world then is currently living and humans certainly didn't kill most of them off.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Here is a question for some you.......how long can our streams, lakes and reservoirs survive our storm drain systems? Rubber, pesticides, weed killers, paint, brake dust, oil, gas, antifreeze, plastic, aluminum, glass.


Mr Muleskinner, finally we agree 100% on something^ Global warming is proven everyone, completely proven without doubt . It is the cause of global warming that has not had a for sure answer yet. CO2 is the main theory to global warming but it hasn't been proven 100% that it is the entire reason for it , but a sain mind should be able to see by looking at data and the world we live in it had to contribute. The world we live in is the only place we know of perfect enough for life to exist, and yet we are destroying it every day worse and worse. The #1 threat to humanity is humanity , think about that for a second.


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## RandomElk16

alpinebowman said:


> Landfills are a blip on the landscape and the ice caps are growing at the moment. And how about that big oil spill a couple years ago? It was supposed to destroy the ocean for years to come and in a few months the big oil blob was gone. Our time on this earth is such a blip what is normal is change whether humans are here or not. You have to remember far more things are extinct from this world then is currently living and humans certainly didn't kill most of them off.


http://ecowatch.com/2014/02/12/deep-sea-impacts-bp-gulf-oil-spill/

http://www.redorbit.com/news/scienc...-lasting-from-deepwater-horizon-spill-092613/

Think before you speak bud... There will be lifelong impacts from that spill. There are still multiple articles every month on it.


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## Mr Muleskinner

alpinebowman said:


> Landfills are a blip on the landscape and the ice caps are growing at the moment. And how about that big oil spill a couple years ago? It was supposed to destroy the ocean for years to come and in a few months the big oil blob was gone. Our time on this earth is such a blip what is normal is change whether humans are here or not. You have to remember far more things are extinct from this world then is currently living and humans certainly didn't kill most of them off.


Yea skyscapers, mining, hazardous waste facilities, oil spills, and landfills of tires and baby diapers have no lasting effects. Throw another cigarette out of the window it doesn't matter we are just a blip on the map. Especially since areas like the Tooele Army Depot are around to take take care of us.

Mother Earth will begin it's recovery I guess when we are gone.


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## alpinebowman

Well at this point the only way to reverse it the way they say is too eradicate 3/4's of the worlds populations and walk around killing things with clubs again. I see nothing out there better than what we have to grow and foster a rising population and don't give me the big oil conspiracies. If there was a better was to make energy per buck the people with money would be all over it. 
the only reason most "alternative" energies are still ticking is because yours and mine tax dollars subsidies every project out there and I am sick and tired of my money subsidizing every lazy tom dick and harry and technologies that don't work and don't call the oil tax breaks. Keeping the money you make is not a subsidies.


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## izzydog

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Mr Muleskinner, finally we agree 100% on something^ Global warming is proven everyone, completely proven without doubt . It is the cause of global warming that has not had a for sure answer yet. CO2 is the main theory to global warming but it hasn't been proven 100% that it is the entire reason for it , but a sain mind should be able to see by looking at data and the world we live in it had to contribute. The world we live in is the only place we know of perfect enough for life to exist, and yet we are destroying it every day worse and worse. The #1 threat to humanity is humanity , think about that for a second.


Take that, HUMANS!


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## morvlorv

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Mother Earth will begin it's recovery I guess when we are gone.


Everyone on the planet needs to hear this quote.
This is gotta be one of the truest things I have read in a long long time.
Its rather sad to think what future generations may or may not have.


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## alpinebowman

Well the dinosaurs are gone and I am sure it wasn't there SUV's and landfills that spelled the end for them. If we disappear it will be because the earth causes it.


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## Mr Muleskinner

alpinebowman said:


> Well the dinosaurs are gone and I am sure it wasn't there SUV's and landfills that spelled the end for them. If we disappear it will be because the earth causes it.


Your first comment summed you up. This one reinforces it.

Stupid is as stupid does.


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## GaryFish

The discussion is an interesting one in deed. I guess where I'm at, is I don't know for sure about global, catastrophic situations caused by humans when one volcano puts more junk in the atmosphere than all human activity combined.

But I do know this. In the winter, air pollution along the SLOP (Salt Lake, Ogden, Provo) corridor is horrible. Human actions, in the natural inversions, has me choking all winter long. And in the summer, the pollution combined with the high temperatures is more of the same. And it sucks. I think we can make many changes in how we do things that could improve these things locally. If that means we move to generate more electricity through solar, wind, hydro, nuclear or whatever else, that would be a good thing for breathable air. There is no one solution, but a combination of many things can improve things for us right now. 

Many may not remember back before the mid '70s. It was the norm for everyone to throw garbage out the windows of cars. It was completely socially acceptable. Driving any highway in America, was like driving through a dump. Campaigns were started (The Crying Indian commercial) and people started to realize that we were living like a bunch of pigs. You think rivers and streams have garbage from slob fishermen? You should have seen things 40 years ago! And people have changed for the good. Very good. Though anyone (Like Goob) that adopts highways, knows we have a way to go. But still - compared to the '70s, we are vastly improved. 

And I think we can promote similar movements today. We have done wonders in the last 40 years to burn fossil fuels more cleanly than we used to - that is a win. And we need to continue that path. AND we need other fuel sources that don't have emissions. For what we've spent "securing foreign oil reserves" in Gulf war in the last 13 years, we could have installed solar panels on EVERY household in America, making each household virtually energy self sufficient.

I just wish both sides would put aside arguing over the global catastrophe that may or may not happen, or arguing about who's scientist is right. I want to have clean air to breath, water to drink, and all right now, where I live.


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## Mr Muleskinner

That is kind of my point Gary. People just need to to do what they can where they are. The municipalities need to put in a system of recycling that actually works. Most of them in Utah are nothing but a way to charge extra money. The storm sewers need be protected from the contamination that can readily be stopped and emissions laws need to be enforced with regards to anything that creates or converts power. Aside from what many think about alternative power it is far more reliable and efficient than it was in years past. The scrubbers and such have worked wonders on emission controls.

I agree that the U.S. has gotten cleaner, the landfills have not, but the streets and highways are better than they were in years past. The fine for littering should be double what it is and enforced with extreme prejudice. Right down to the cigarette butts. Recycling really needs to get pushed harder. There are natural resources that we are going to simply run out of. 

If most of you saw how our water supplies are taxed in Utah and how close we are to running out of drinking water during the weekends at peak demand it would astonish you. The idea that everybody in Utah needs a perfectly green, manicured lawn covered in 4 seasons worth of fertilizer and weed killer is nuts. 

There are a lot of things that need to be done on a local level.


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## alpinebowman

Well mister muleskinner I just can't believe that a short blip in history shoved into a computer model is anywhere near capable of figuring out what the world was before us or will be after. I have presented information same as you and enjoy the banter but remember the earth used to be flat to the scientist as well. Bad info in means bad info out. 

Garyfish my father is big into alternative energy for science and knowledge side of it and most people don't have a clue what goes into it. He has solar panels, solar water heaters and wind turbines and none of it is very maintenance free and the batteries needed is crazy and must be replaced every few years. I am not saying it isn't an alternative but it still has plenty of issues. Battery storage is the biggest issue with any of the alternatives and as maybe mule will tell you they have to rape the mother earth to get those components as well. clean energy isn't clean.


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## Mr Muleskinner

alpinebowman said:


> Well mister muleskinner I just can't believe that a short blip in history shoved into a computer model is anywhere near capable of figuring out what the world was before us or will be after. I have presented information same as you and enjoy the banter but remember the earth used to be flat to the scientist as well. Bad info in means bad info out.
> 
> Garyfish my father is big into alternative energy for science and knowledge side of it and most people don't have a clue what goes into it. He has solar panels, solar water heaters and wind turbines and none of it is very maintenance free and the batteries needed is crazy and must be replaced every few years. I am not saying it isn't an alternative but it still has plenty of issues. Battery storage is the biggest issue with any of the alternatives and as maybe mule will tell you they have to rape the mother earth to get those components as well. clean energy isn't clean.


Okay Alpine............if everything is on it's intended course in your world you won't mind us that want to make things a little better do you? Maybe improve upon things that are wrong or could be wrong.

For instance...........did you know that West Jordan has to purchase 75% of it's water because they can not install more wells. It's not a lack of water. It is the fact that the mine to your west has ruined the water supply that you sit on.


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## alpinebowman

I don't mind people making things better I have a problem with other people forcing me to do things and pay for things I don't want. This holier than moa stuff ticks me off. I like to make sure I clean things up and be a decent steward but when i keep getting my money and rights fleeced is where I have an issue.


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## SLCHunter

alpinebowman said:


> I don't mind people making things better I have a problem with other people forcing me to do things and pay for things I don't want. This holier than moa stuff ticks me off. I like to make sure I clean things up and be a decent steward but when i keep getting my money and rights fleeced is where I have an issue.


Unfortunately, you do have the wrong starting point. What somebody earns for work is that persons revenue less costs -- but under current regulations/law (or in an imaginary "free market") costs do not include the damage caused by pollution. So, to use your terminology, you are currently fleecing everybody else. And, since everybody else is as well polluting too much, everybody else is fleecing you.

If we as a society were to account properly for the damage done, yours and your childrens wel-lbeing would increase.

No degree of rage from your side will change that.


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## RandomElk16

alpinebowman said:


> Well mister muleskinner I just can't believe that a short blip in history shoved into a computer model is anywhere near capable of figuring out what the world was before us or will be after. I have presented information same as you and enjoy the banter but remember the earth used to be flat to the scientist as well. Bad info in means bad info out.
> 
> Garyfish my father is big into alternative energy for science and knowledge side of it and most people don't have a clue what goes into it. He has solar panels, solar water heaters and wind turbines and none of it is very maintenance free and the batteries needed is crazy and must be replaced every few years. I am not saying it isn't an alternative but it still has plenty of issues. Battery storage is the biggest issue with any of the alternatives and as maybe mule will tell you they have to rape the mother earth to get those components as well. clean energy isn't clean.


He has to change the batteries on his solar panels often?


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## alpinebowman

Random, 
It is an every few years thing but it is not a small bank of batteries and he can't even run full time on the setup he has and still relies on UP&L some of the time. Alternative energy is only truly the answer if it can be properly stored since the sun doesn't always shine and the wind doesn't blow. You would be amazed at the wind actually needed to generate decent current as well as too much wind causing problems as well. 

SLC I agree we have a false free market in this country. Anybody that owns or runs a business knows how much regulation prevents that.


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## Mr Muleskinner

lack of regulation also poisoned your West Jordan water and sent your tax dollar to the the Geneva Steel and Murray Smelter superfund cleanups. The land that Rio Tinto sits on is way beyond superfund money now. I could show people spots up there that would make them vomit. Hundreds of thousands of tons of hazardous waste buried that will never be seen again. Just left to leach into the soil. No liners. No controls. Just dirt.


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## alpinebowman

For my parting thoughts on the subject I will say that even if we all discard everything that the pollution gave us and go back to a cave as I stated before won't fix the world. and at this point the next generation will have it worse in that aspect as well. before the great roman empire and the industrial revolution all people could do was survive. Once people were able to get things they needed to live from those times without so much effort civilizations were able to invent, cure and better the human condition. 

If we have to grow all our own food and ride a horse or walk everywhere there is little time to better one's self. If we do end up back in the stone age I would hope the same scenario played out again and human aspiration and intelligence would once again build a thriving metropolis and not leaving us banging rocks together to get fire.


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## Mr Muleskinner

alpinebowman said:


> If we have to grow all our own food and ride a horse or walk everywhere there is little time to better one's self. *I thought that is how you better one's self.*
> 
> If we do end up back in the stone age I would hope the same scenario played out again and human aspiration and intelligence would once again build a thriving metropolis and not leaving us banging rocks together to get fire. *You say that as if there is no room for a middle ground that includes conservation and a cleaner environment*


:?:grin:


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## RandomElk16

You talk about aspirations.. Why not do all those things without a carbon footprint? Every post makes you seem more ignorant. You would hope we would still dump hazardous waste into the ground? Into the rivers? The air? 

You would hope we still dumped our sewage and trash into the ocean? That china built nuclear plants next to the ocean so they could flood into it? 

I would have hoped for some different results.


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## swbuckmaster

I dont mind cleaning up anything. What I cant stand is global warming BS. Do you know the south pole is increasing faster than the north pole is decreasing? 

It doesnt matter what you believe the world is ending. The Muslims want to bring on jihad and end the world. The Christians believe Christ is coming and it will end the world. The flat soft heads believe global warming will end the world. Either way you look at it the world is ending.


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## Mr Muleskinner

I don't know that anybody here has claimed that the world is ending or anywhere close to it. Are you reading the same thread? 

I bet buckmaster is an exaggeration as well.:grin:


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## Afishnado

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we've been having global warming since the ice ages. That's unless you believe the earth is only 3000 years old.


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## c3hammer

Do you global warming kooks know that there is biological plant material above the bedrock, under 10,000' of ice on Greenland? Depending if you're an young earth or old earth kind of person, that puts plant life on Greenland somewhere between 4700 and 120,000 years ago. All well within the range of time humans were found on earth. Did we cause the 3000m of ice or might the earth simply decide on a regular basis to throw us a curve?

Did you know that there is more ice on earth right now than anytime in the last 100 years? Yes, the Antarctic ice sheet is about 11% more volume than any time in recorded history. The arctic ice is 4-15% lower than the modern recorded average. Alarmist beware !!! Except for the fact that the Antarctic is 30 times the size of the arctic.

Do you realize with these facts at hand that our average temp is a mere 0.41 deg c higher than the 20 century average right now?

The arrogance of man that believes we have any effect on our climate is without bounds it appears.

Ken and Scott, I'll suggest time spent arguing with idiots on such matters would be much better spent behind a bow, a glass of wine or both with close friends


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## DallanC

c3hammer said:


> Do you global warming kooks know that there is biological plant material above the bedrock, under 10,000' of ice on Greenland? Depending if you're an young earth or old earth kind of person, that puts plant life on Greenland somewhere between 4700 and 120,000 years ago. All well within the range of time humans were found on earth. Did we cause the 3000m of ice or might the earth simply decide on a regular basis to throw us a curve?
> 
> Did you know that there is more ice on earth right now than anytime in the last 100 years? Yes, the Antarctic ice sheet is about 11% more volume than any time in recorded history. The arctic ice is 4-15% lower than the modern recorded average. Alarmist beware !!! Except for the fact that the Antarctic is 30 times the size of the arctic.
> 
> Do you realize with these facts at hand that our average temp is a mere 0.41 deg c higher than the 20 century average right now?
> 
> The arrogance of man that believes we have any effect on our climate is without bounds it appears.
> 
> Ken and Scott, I'll suggest time spent arguing with idiots on such matters would be much better spent behind a bow, a glass of wine or both with close friends


I do, I've been following research on it for years.

Facts are we have been trending COOLER for THOUSANDS of years. Its only a small portion of that chart that shows an up tick. Not enough statistical data to overcome the previous 10,000 years of readings.

http://joannenova.com.au/2010/02/the-big-picture-65-million-years-of-temperature-swings/










The whole global cooling issue was brought up years ago, and was discussed often in the mid to late 1970's.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/03/01/global-cooling-compilation/

/shrug. We had crazy wild cold weather across the Earth this year... I wonder why, Oh wait:

http://www.space.com/23934-weak-solar-cycle-space-weather.html

Yea... must be CO2, the gas that makes up less than .03 percent of the worlds atmosphere (Nitrogen makes up 78%, Oxygen 21% and Argon at .93% .... that accounts for 99.8% of everything).

-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter

Everyone knows that global warming is caused by stinky mule farts and too many flatulent elk on the Monroe. I say we eradicate both and see what happens. Seriously. In my experience, those who preach about stewardship are often much like their leader Al Gore......some of the worst hypocrites and polluters. Real conservationists just do it everyday, teach it to their kids, and stay out of others business. Global warming must be real because now 1-I and Obama say so. I think that global warming(aka climate change because there is no global warming) is a tall tale designed to manipulate gullible people......and it works great apparently.--------SS


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## The Naturalist

Earth's climate system is complex. Natural factors that have definite impacts on climate change are solar output, volcanoes, plate tectonics, Earth's tilt (a wobble of about every 40,000 years), and our orbit around the sun (varies about every 100,000 years). 
Carbon dioxide levels are the highest they have been in the last 800,000 years according to ice core records.
Are any of these natural processes causing the increased levels of CO2? All appear to be within normal ranges. Is there some other cause for these increased levels besides human activity? Not likely (according to the IPCC).
Some say Earth is too complex for living things to make a difference, however in Earth's early history its CO2 levels were similar to what Venus and Mars current CO2 levels are today...over 90%. So what happened to our CO2 to lower it to .03% with oxygen now at 21% while oxygen on Venus and Mars is practically nonexistent? The answer...living things...plants. It shouldn't be too hard to realize that humans have a part in increased levels of CO2.
Earth absorbs roughly 64% of the energy it receives from the sun every day. This energy bounces around in Earth's systems for a while, but eventually, every day the Earth must radiate 64% into space in the form of infrared energy. If the Earth radiates more energy into space than it receives for a period of time then we can say we are going through a period of global cooling. If the Earth radiates less energy into space than it receives for a period of time then we are experiencing global warming.
The Earth has experienced cooling and warming cycles thousands of times over its history. Right now Earth is experiencing a period of global warming with a rise of 1 degree F. All the data shows a strong correlation to the rise in CO2 levels, which shows a very likely connection to human activity.
A one degree rise doesn't seem like much for any particular locale. But remember this is global...not just the arctic or Antarctic...not just Utah or North America...global.
This does not mean the end of the world. It will cause some changes. A lot of it depends on how high the CO2 levels rise. Computer models forecast numerous scenarios from worst case to minimal depending on how much the greenhouse gases continue to increase.
I'll stop here. :smile:


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## Mr Muleskinner

With regards to the arctic and antarctic. You guys need to do a little more reading on continental ice versus sea ice, how they are formed, how they are influenced and other ways in which they differ. Comparing the two is really not very intelligent.

Yes grand scheme we are trending cooler. Fact is the orbit of the moon has been getting bigger every year for several million years. Eventually is could lead to a much longer Ice Age than the last one.

Short term, (the term that Humans exist on Earth). It in part depends upon what you want to believe. Scientist are typically working off of granted money and many have a strange way of finding what the money tells them to. 

I will stop by saying this. I didn't post this to start an argument about global warming. I am quite honestly no more concerned about global warming than I am about World War III. I have not control over either. I wanted to see what reactions people would have. Which side of the fence people are on, what line they would take and which direction the conversation would turn. 

I am concerned about pollution though. It is a big problem. Whether some want to admit it or not. There are a lot improvements to be made on a local level that will have more of an impact on our wildlife in my opinion than anything that China will or will not do.


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## Huntoholic

Just out of ignorance, what device or instrument is being used to come up with 1 degree?


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## Elkaholic2

I want to get all you guys in the same town hall meeting!!!


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## The Naturalist

Huntoholic said:


> Just out of ignorance, what device or instrument is being used to come up with 1 degree?


For paleoclimates they measure an isotope of oxygen found in ice cores. The prevalence of that isotope is indicative of a corresponding temperature. The interesting thing is that as CO2 concentrations in ice cores rise so does the temperature as measured by the oxygen isotope. So we can see a direct relationship between CO2 levels and temperature increases and decreases over the last 800,000 years.

Today temperatures are measured with typical weather instrumentation, thermometers and satellite imagery. Global average temperatures today are the highest since modern records have been kept (the last 150 or so years). One degree F doesn't seem like a lot for any one particular area, but for a global average it is significant as the Earth usually does a pretty good job at keeping a balance. The thing concerning the majority of climate scientists is the trend doesn't appear to be abating. The computer models indicate if the current trend continues that by the end of this century we could see as much as a 7 degree F rise in temps (worst case scenario).


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## The Naturalist

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Short term, (the term that Humans exist on Earth). It in part depends upon what you want to believe. Scientist are typically working off of granted money and many have a strange way of finding what the money tells them to.
> 
> .


 I agree, some scientists can be bought, not to the extent that politicians are bought , but it does happen.
However, the thing that keeps most research scientists ethical is their reputations are at stake. That is why peer reviewed studies are so important. If they aren't on the up and up in their research the peer reviews will usually catch it and then the grant money stops flowing.


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## Treehugnhuntr

What does a 7 degree average change equate to in layman's terms? 

It's quite interesting that a fair amount of people reserve themselves to an ideological corner when considering different aspects of what might be prudent when it comes to thriving as a race, much less surviving. Does ego really dictate an entire philosophy of an individual? I guess there are really are a host of entities missing their noses, but at least they showed their face who's boss. 

Men willingly believe what they wish to be true.......


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## Huntoholic

The Naturalist said:


> For paleoclimates they measure an isotope of oxygen found in ice cores. The prevalence of that isotope is indicative of a corresponding temperature. The interesting thing is that as CO2 concentrations in ice cores rise so does the temperature as measured by the oxygen isotope. So we can see a direct relationship between CO2 levels and temperature increases and decreases over the last 800,000 years.
> 
> Today temperatures are measured with typical weather instrumentation, thermometers and satellite imagery. Global average temperatures today are the highest since modern records have been kept (the last 150 or so years). One degree F doesn't seem like a lot for any one particular area, but for a global average it is significant as the Earth usually does a pretty good job at keeping a balance. The thing concerning the majority of climate scientists is the trend doesn't appear to be abating. The computer models indicate if the current trend continues that by the end of this century we could see as much as a 7 degree F rise in temps (worst case scenario).


So when you measure isotope what do you use? What type of device or instrument?

Typical weather instruments have an error factor of what?


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## The Naturalist

Huntoholic said:


> So when you measure isotope what do you use? What type of device or instrument?


This explains it a lot better than I could. ;-)

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Paleoclimatology_OxygenBalance/

The instruments used are mass spectrometers and laser absorption.


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## The Naturalist

Huntoholic said:


> Typical weather instruments have an error factor of what?


 I don't have an answer for you on this question. However, I think regardless of any error would be the consistency of the devices used.

For example; if a typical thermometer has a degree of error of .2 degrees F and measurements are taken twice a day for 30 days then the degree of error drops dramatically. Taken over a whole year the degree of error would almost be nonexistent. (Least ways if I remember my statistics correctly...its been a while :shock.


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## wyogoob

RandomElk16 said:


> http://ecowatch.com/2014/02/12/deep-sea-impacts-bp-gulf-oil-spill/
> 
> http://www.redorbit.com/news/scienc...-lasting-from-deepwater-horizon-spill-092613/
> 
> Think before you speak bud... There will be lifelong impacts from that spill. There are still multiple articles every month on it.


 I concur. The chemical dispersant used to break up the oil slick has the oil suspended in the mid-ocean level contributing to the "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico.


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## redleg

*RainDance*

200 years ago the American Indians believed they could change the weather by building a fire and dancing around it.
Today the people who believe that 'we have to pass this bill so we can see what's in it' and that ObamaCare 'would save American working Families $1.500 a year' believe that the rain dance does change the weather but you don't need to dance, just build the fire.
In the 70s these same alarmists believed American industry was causing Global Cooling by shading the planet. Their problems change but the solution is always STOP AMERICAN INDUSTRY OR WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE.


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