# speed or momentun



## team-A&S (Feb 1, 2010)

witch would you rather have. i picked momentum 

430gr arrow at 295fps=== 83ftlbs

it a little more quiet out of the bow, and man does it shoot lights out for me 

well let hear yours now. what ya got and why


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

More speed = more momentum. I think the question you want to ask is speed or mass. More momentum from mass increase means you will have better penetration. More kinetic energy from speed means you will have a flatter shooting bow.

So to give you an idea. I shoot a 355 grain arrow at 315 fps. At 40 yards my arrow has dropped 31 inches and is carrying 78 ft-lbs of energy and .495 lb-sec of momentum.

Your arrow at 40 yards will have dropped 34 inches and carries 83 ft-lbs of energy and .56 lb-sec of momentum.

My arrow is 3 inches flatter than yours at 40 yards but yours has .065 lb-sec more of momentum. 

Now it depends on how you hunt. Close range (15 yards, tree stand, Tex-O-Bob) or long range (40 yards, spot and stalk, me). 

If it’s close range than the difference in vertical drop between our two arrows are <1 inch and your setup would be better because of the greater momentum. Larger momentum = better penetration.

If it’s long range than I would argue that my setup is better. I would rather have an arrow that flies 3 inches flatter than gain .065 lb-sec more of momentum because the most important thing is hitting the deer in the right spot.


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## team-A&S (Feb 1, 2010)

i would disagree with your set being better at a longer range. i will have less drift left to right with the wind. a more forgiving arrow on not so great release. and on a marginal shot at a further distance my momentum will drive a lot further than you speed. that imo


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Meen makes a lot of sense and sounds like he knows what he's talking about, because he does. He knows all the math that makes his argument a sound one and an educated one. But I'll add another component to his set-up that is equally as important in my book. Stability. True, the faster you get any object going, the flatter it will shoot and the more KE it will have. trouble is, to get those blistering speeds and flat trajectory's, you compromise the arrows stability. How many guys can get a big solid fixed blade broadhead to fly good shooting a 350 grain arrow at 325 fps. with little 2 inch straight fletch girl vanes glued on the back? Answer, not many. That's why we've invented "sacrifice stability shoot it anyway because speed and flat trajectory are more important" devices like the Epek broadhead, drop away rests, quick spin vanes, etc. Man has an incredible way of adapting to compensate for their lack of judgment.

My set-up, simple. Great big heavy arrow, with a great big fixed blade head, and great big 5 1/2 inch feathers on the back. Ya, you can outrun my arrows, but the deer never hear them coming and they hit like a truck. But, like Meen said, I hunt close quarters, and take only close shots. Speed has little bearing on why I kill stuff. I'll take quiet, stable, and hammer hitting, over speed, and trajectory any day. I am the Lone Ranger on this sight with this kind of thinking, but I don't care. :wink: To use a phrase coined by another archery group, the proof in in the pudding. Or in this case, the frying pan.


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## NHS (Sep 7, 2007)

Besides all that, Tex has outstanding Woodsmanship. :roll:

:lol:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

tream-A&S said:


> i would disagree with your set being better at a longer range. i will have less drift left to right with the wind. a more forgiving arrow on not so great release. and on a marginal shot at a further distance my momentum will drive a lot further than you speed. that imo


I agree!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

NHS said:


> Besides all that, Tex has outstanding Woodsmanship. :roll:
> 
> :lol:


You gotta be woodsy to get as close as I do. 8)


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> NHS said:
> 
> 
> > Besides all that, Tex has outstanding Woodsmanship. :roll:
> ...


Being the size of a lemur helps as well.


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## team-A&S (Feb 1, 2010)

let hear it guy's what the word you shoot a freight train or a lotus to kill that trophy this year


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I strive for a happy medium on my setup. I shoot at 63# with a 420-430 grain arrow launched at 290+ FPS. It keeps my bow quieter and gives it a little more umphh than a lighter setup, but is still a fairly flat shooting setup.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

team-A&S said:


> let hear it guy's what the word you shoot a freight train or a lotus to kill that trophy this year


I've always shot freight trains, even when I shot a C.M.A.S.D. I just don't believe speed is what kills animals. When I did shoot a C.M.A.S.D I went light and fast with my arrows one year just to see what all the hype was about. Back then a supper fast bow was going 255 fps. I got my set-up up around 230 fps with a light arrow and shooting 70 lbs. Trouble was, my bow was quite a bit louder when shooting this setup. After all, a light arrow absorbs less energy from the bow and makes the bow louder. Huh, Who Knew! One day I had a deer with it's head in th water drinking at 18 yards. I got drawn, settled the pin and let her rip. Even at 230 fps at 18 yards that deer ducked my arrow and got completely out of the way before it got there. My point, if they're gonna jump, they're gonna jump yer string no matter how fast your bow is. That's when I went back to heavy and quiet. Now that I shoot a trad set-up I rarely have deer jump my string cuz they just don't hear it coming. Plus, I'm close enough so my broadhead is starting to cut just about the time my nock leaves the string. :mrgreen:


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

I side with tex and pro. I will take momentum over speed any day. Although having flat trajectory has its obvious benefits. My set up is throwing the heaviest arrow I can around 280-290 ft/sec. And as soon as I get my new bow- that should be a 450+ grain arrow! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 

I think of speed as a stepping stone to enable one to shoot a heavier arrow. 
Take it to the extrems and think of it this way. What would hurt more: Someone as hard as they can, throwing a hard spaghetti noodle at your head or lightly tossing a piece of rebar at your head? The noodle will be much faster though, right?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> What would hurt more: Someone as hard as they can, throwing a hard spaghetti noodle at your head or lightly tossing a piece of rebar at your head? The noodle will be much faster though, right?


Great analogy. I like thinking of it like this. A .22 LR. has more velocity than a .45 ACP. But which one would you rather get hit by? Both will kill if put in the right place, but the .45 will always be deadlier because of several factors. All of which have to do with mass and kinetic energy. Arrow stability and penetration fallow the same rules of science and math. The only difference is, an arrow kills by passing through something and causing massive hemorrhaging that ultimately brings the blood pressure down enough that the critter dies. (momentum) A bullet kills by transferring the energy stored in the bullet to the target causing extreme shock.(Kinetic Energy) The blood loss it causes is just icing on the cake. If a bullet doesn't hit anything to slow it down and cause the transfer of energy, it then kills by massive hemorrhage. And now we're right back to momentum again.


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

blazingsaddle said:


> Take it to the extrems and think of it this way. What would hurt more: Someone as hard as they can, throwing a hard spaghetti noodle at your head or lightly tossing a piece of rebar at your head? The noodle will be much faster though, right?


Although the analogy seems like it's great for visualization, it is misleading. The ratio between weights would have to be comparable in order to be valid. Let me explain.

A&S shoots a 430 grain arrow. I shoot a 355 grain arrow. The difference in weight is a ratio of 1.2. So in your analogy it would be more like throwing a normal spaghetti noodle (pre cooked) and lobbing a piece of linguini. There will probably be a very slight difference in what I feel hitting my head, but the normal spaghetti noodle hit me a lot sooner without an arc.

Now, let me make a point here. We are comparing grains and inches of vertical drop people! Can you even physically describe how much 75 grains is? It's miniscule! On the other hand inches are huge. It's a units thing. My point was that 75 grains of weight which results in .065 lb-sec more of momentum is SQUAT when comparing it to feet/sec and vertical drop in INCHES! Do you honestly think that .065 lb-sec more is going to make any kind of noticeable difference in penetration or flight stability.

Now let me argue the momentum side. Do you honestly think that 3 inches less of vertical drop is going to make a noticeable difference in accuracy? NO! That is why we have sights, to put consistency to our arrows path of travel. Your sighted in bow for large vertical drops is probably just as accurate as my bow sighted in for 3 inches less of drop. The same goes for penetration and stability when we are talking GRAINS!

Now, TEX-O-BOB is a completely different story. His arrows weigh POUNDS more than mine! And my arrows fly considerably faster. None of you would argue that my bow is more accurate due to flat trajectory, so no one should argue that Tex's bow is lights out as far as penetration goes. Assuming ideal conditions (no wind etc)

Now I say all of that stuff to say this. Whether you choose to shoot with a tiny amount more of momentum or a few more feet/sec. They are going to be basically the same. Just shoot what you can shoot. I shoot what I have because G at UAC set it up and man I love the way it shoots.

I will let you in on a little secret of what really matters when it comes to increasing grains. Increasing the mass of the arrow by 50 grains achieves approximately the same momentum (penetration) as adding 10 lbs of draw weight with the original arrow! Now that is worth increasing your grains if your having a problem pulling back your bow.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> None of you would argue that my bow is more accurate due to flat trajectory, so no one should argue that Tex's bow is lights out as far as penetration goes.


My bow is just as accurate as your bow. It shoots exactly where I point it. We're just dealing with a 5 foot arc at 80 yards instead of a 5 inch arc... Plus, I don't always point it in the right spot...


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

I like the happy medium theory A, 

I am shooting 340fps with a 350gr arrow, 320fps with a 400gr arrow, and 299fps with a 460gr arrow... and while all three projectiles will handily dispatch any North American big game animal very well if yardage is judged correctly and they are given a clean release, I tend to err on the side of the 400 grain arrow for the sake of limiting the arrow drop when shooting unranged yardages, while also providing that "carry through energy" you favor.

A personal example would be: At 340fps with the 350 grain arrow, I have a measely 3 foot-pounds less KE than the 400 grain arrow at 20 yards (87fp vs 83.5fp of KE) which is more than enough to completely pass through the elk, bear or deer I typically hunt - even if I hit a rib. 

The 299fps 460gr arrow shot through my set-up gives 92 foot pounds at 20 yds, but the arch is significant enough between the 460gr and the 400gr and my pins gapped so much more that shooting at 40 yards or beyond without KNOWING the yardage with the heaviest arrow would be something I would be very hesitant to do to ensure no obstacles were hiding in the arrow's arched path. 

The other two arrows are flat enough that they provide a pretty much "line-of-sight" trajectory even at 40yds and beyond, which can be especially important at longer ranges where you may not see things in the "arch path" of the heavier arrow. Also, the likelyhood that a 5 yard misjudgement at 70yds will miss - or worse will wound an animal - is significantly lessened between the 400gr and the 460gr arrows. 

The flatter trajectory will also reduce my pin gaps drammatically allowing for more pins to more precicely aim (the same reason the "SureHogg" sliding sights are becoming ever more popular along the Wasatch Front), which reduces my margin of error judging yardage and lessens the chance of wounding an animal...which seems to be a concern fewer and fewer of us archers seem to have nowadays.

Second, regarding wind drift effects on my 400gr arrow vs the 460 gr arrow, the faster one is in the air a shorter time so it will negate the wind drift effects you mention. Also, the animal will have less time to react to the shot.


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

Very good point TOUA. I hadn't thought about the affect less vertical drop would cause when shooting at judged distances. That makes a large difference. I am so used to using a range finder before I shoot that it didn't even cross my mind.

I had thought about the wind situation though. Just hard to convince people to see it that way but it is very true. The difference in stability between the two arrows are basically zilch but the time the wind is allowed to move the arrow is a lot greater.


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

They have found straw that has gone trough a cow during a tornado. With my new SR-71 I have coming I will be albe to shoot straws or knitting needles (texobobby)through elk.  I have the need and greed for speed!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

north slope said:


> They have found straw that has gone trough a cow during a tornado. With my new SR-71 I have coming I will be albe to shoot straws or knitting needles (texobobby)through elk.  I have the need and greed for speed!


As long as you shoot Epek heads, execute perfect form, get a clean release, and your arrow doesn't hit an obstruction like say a midge flying through the air, you should be ok...

Why don't you just go buy a gun. :roll:


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> [quote="north slope":2kmrqk5e]They have found straw that has gone trough a cow during a tornado. With my new SR-71 I have coming I will be albe to shoot straws or knitting needles (texobobby)through elk.  I have the need and greed for speed!


As long as you shoot Epek heads, execute perfect form, get a clean release, and your arrow doesn't hit an obstruction like say a midge flying through the air, you should be ok...

Why don't you just go buy a gun. :roll:[/quote:2kmrqk5e]

You know how you always say the point of using a bow and arrow is getting close? Well, I agree with you and with some of the stuff getting published and publicized now glorifying the art of not getting close but killing critters anyway, your comment about going and buying a gun makes more and more sense. When does it get to the point that its no longer effective archery anymore and is just basically luck? I personally will take weight over speed, small diameter penetration and kinetic energy with a heavy arrow over blazing speed with a thin walled tube waiting to shatter the instant it hits something that won't give (like a bone perhaps). Good call on your last post Tex. 8)


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## CP1 (Oct 1, 2007)

The easy solution to all your arguments is to simply read the Utah Big Game Proclamation and find out what is legal- make sure you have a legal set-up, tune it correctly- then FREAKIN PRACTICE!!!! 

All this bull crap dosent mean jack if you cant hit what your aiming at! 

Anyone willing to blame a 350 gr arrow or a 650 gr arrow for the loss of a wounded animal needs to have their melon checked!


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

north slope said:


> They have found straw that has gone trough a cow during a tornado. With my new SR-71 I have coming I will be albe to shoot straws or knitting needles (texobobby)through elk.  I have the need and greed for speed!


I spoke with Dale today at Strother... hold your wrist and check for a pulse, cause it won't be long now.


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## team-A&S (Feb 1, 2010)

Hoggwash, and Hobblecrop. Speed & Momentum is like making the realization that I can't judge yardage very well, so I'm going flat and fast. I'll tag that buck or bull at the speed of light, but hit it with not much more than a grain of rice. I mean really how much does grain improve ones stability anyway? Right???


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

team-A&S said:


> Hoggwash, and Hobblecrop. Speed & Momentum is like making the realization that I can't judge yardage very well, so I'm going flat and fast. I'll tag that buck or bull at the speed of light, but hit it with not much more than a grain of rice. I mean really how much does grain improve ones stability anyway? Right???


Como? Definately lost me on this one.


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## 3D4ME (Sep 24, 2008)

I use to get caught up in this argument but not any more.
With today's equipment KE VS Momentum is a mute point. 
Shoot what you like, just hit what you aim for. 
This is a dumb argument. :roll:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

3D4ME said:


> I use to get caught up in this argument but not any more.
> With today's equipment KE VS Momentum is a mute point.
> Shoot what you like, just hit what you aim for.
> This is a dumb argument. :roll:


Who's arguing, we're just stating opinions and chewing the fat. And who said I shoot "todays" equipment.


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

It is silly to try to compare a tradational set up to a super fast killing machine like the bows we have today. Two different animals, I am getting my recurve set up right now as we speak and I will end up with a 550 grain arrow. Yes I have a recurve, I built it with my own hands and some day I will hunt with it. I love to mess around with compounds and I am a speed freak. The best way to find out what works for YOU is experience. I have killed many elk with a 370 grain arrow going 280-300 fps. I have a 27 1/2 inch draw and so my arrows are short. Again shoot what works for you, trying to compare tradional to compound is a joke. Tex can't you find your own web sight where they talk about loin cloth, plaid shirts, wool pants,chiped arrowheads and wonderful smell of a cedar?


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## 3D4ME (Sep 24, 2008)

> Who's arguing, we're just stating opinions and chewing the fat. And who said I shoot "todays" equipment.


Everyone knows you shoot traditional but you did not post the original question. So, by default everyone assumes it is about modern equipment since about 98% (A guess) of bow hunters out there are modern hunters.

If it makes you feel better I will say "Discussing." Don't want to hurt any feelings.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I feel the need for speed! :mrgreen:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Tex can't you find your own web sight where they talk about loin cloth, plaid shirts, wool pants,chiped arrowheads and wonderful smell of a cedar?


There are plenty of such sights, but most are filled with stuffed shirts from back east that turn their nose up at us western ********. They're like the same kind of nose-in-the-air snobs that hang out on Fly fishing chat rooms. (And I know you know what I'm talking about there.) Besides, I know most you guys and It's much funner to ruffle feathers around here. :twisted:



> If it makes you feel better I will say "Discussing." Don't want to hurt any feelings.


No harm, no foul dude. 



> I feel the need for speed!


Take it easy there Goose!


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Take it easy there Goose!


I thought it was Maverik


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Goose was Mavericks "sidekick".


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Goose was Mavericks "sidekick".


Thanx for clarifying that, Tonto. :mrgreen:


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

how about this analogy: 

When making love to a woman do you want your tip inside the woman or stuck in the dirt behind her?

I know what I want! :shock:

to me speed and or momentum is all talk when dealing with mule deer. so the faster and heavier the arrow is the more your arrow will end up in the dirt. my slow 255 fps little 375 grain arrow goes through them long ways. So unless you are going to push a larger broadhead through them it really doesn't matter does it?


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