# Hardcast bullets on big game in Utah?



## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

There are a number of people who advocate hardcast bullets with a wide flat metplate as good bullets for big game. The have a good reputation for combining penetration with tissue damage.

Utah law mandates the use of expanding bullets. Would a hardcast bullet be considered expanding or non-expanding? For example, would it be allowed to use the 180 grain Buffalo Bore hardcast .357 magnum load on deer?

Oh, one more thing. The .357 magnum would be fired from a rifle.


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

perfectly legal.
however, if the particular CO checking on you wanted to write you a ticket, he could.
Then you could fight it in court and likely win.
Might be best to avoid the situation.

It's a grey area in the law that is up for debate. IMO hardcast bullets ARE expanding bullets.


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

Any more thoughts on this question?


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

All lead alloys suitable for use as bullets are softer than copper jackets and solid copper bullets.
I wouldn't go so far as to use straight Linotype for big game (it may fragment), but your typical "hard cast" bullet will be fine.
In many cases, you'll end up getting better expansion from a lead bullet as hard as 18-22 BHN, than you would from certain non-performing jacketed bullets like the Hornady Accubond (which tends to fold over, rather than expanding -- not available for .357 Mag, of course).

Commercial "hard cast" bullets generally run 18-22 BHN; which is exceptionally hard, and completely unnecessary in .357 Mag. It will work just fine, but is arguably too hard for the cartridge.

My personal preference would be for something between Wheel Weight alloy (BHN 11-13) and Lyman #2 alloy (BHN 15-16), then heat treated to BHN 18-22. The heat treatment doesn't really "harden" the bullet, as much as it _strengthens_ the bullet by relaxing some of the fragile crystal lattice structure that formed during casting; then allowing the structure to reform in a more consistent manner. The result is a bullet that can be pushed very hard, but still retains the ability to expand nicely on game without as much fragmentation - as if it were never 'hardened' at all.

But... if you're not casting your own bullets, and are instead buying commercial stuff... you don't really have much control over the process. Just pick a bullet that you like, and go from there.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Bullet casing is an ancient and integral part of reloading. Many today think reloading is something new that only involves the assembly and testing/using of an array of prefab components. In reality, "reloading" is as old as shooting itself. The fine art of casting ones bullets...maybe I should say "ball" ...has always been probably the most important and challenging part of reloading. Those diehard individuals, and it sounds as if Squigie is one, that choose to not only "assemble" but actually create their own ammo, find much enjoyment and fullfilment in plying the ancient art of metallurgy as applied to shooting.


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

BPturkeys said:


> Those diehard individuals, and it sounds as if Squigie is one, that choose to not only "assemble" but actually create their own ammo, find much enjoyment and fullfilment in plying the ancient art of metallurgy as applied to shooting.


Yep. I cast for 32, 40, 41, and 44 caliber. The .32s get used in rifles and pistols, with .308" to .315" bores. The .41s are for .41 Mag, of course; but also used as cores for certain swaged bullets. The .44s are used in revolvers and a .444 Marlin. And, the .40s are used _only_ as cores for swaged bullets. (The swaged bullets being a lead core inside a .40 S&W case that has been formed into a jacket for 44 caliber use.  )

But... even just casting isn't enough for me. I don't like any of the common bullet molds on the market. So, most of my cast bullets come out of custom molds of my own design.

If I could draw my own cases, I would. (Working on that one...)
If I could make my own smokeless powder (safely), I would.
If I could make my own primers (safely), I would.

There's nothing better that starting with raw materials, and controlling every bit of the process... right up to the point that you turn a buck's/bull's heart into jello.

Diehard, is one way to describe it; anal retentive could be another.


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## stick_man (Sep 10, 2007)

Squigie, it sounds like you have truly caught the fever and the addiction. I wish I had the setup to make my own molds. Since I can't, I have found a couple semi-custom mold makers that do group buys. Most of my molds are now from either of 2 of these makers. NOE in Provo does a great job and I have 3 rifle molds from him with 2 handgun molds coming in the next couple weeks. Another great mold maker is in Slovenia. Have 3 of his as well, all for handguns. I have molds for hunting and molds for plinking. Yes, hard cast bullets are considered "expanding" type bullets and are legal for hunting in Utah.


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

I don't cut my own molds. I just draw up the designs and send them to some one that can.  

I'd like to try a Mihec mold, but haven't found one that would justify the cost just yet.

I really hope Al (NOE) gets out from under the rock he dropped on himself. Waiting 2(+) years for a mold, with no real idea as to when you'll get it, is ridiculous. He's a good guy and cares about his work, but that doesn't matter when you can't actually get your hands on his molds. I've worked with him in person a few times, and he's a nice guy. I like his molds. But... I just backed out of 2 group buys that were supposed to go into production more than 18 months ago. Now, they're destined to sit dormant until at least 2014! I just can't wait that long, after already waiting for nearly 3 years.

I've found Tom (Accurate Molds - Murray) to be an even more pleasant person to work with, his tolerances to be tighter, and his normal delivery time frame is only about 2-3 days after the order is placed. If you can dream it up, he can cut it (within machine limitations).
Plus... I've become a fan of brass molds. NOE no longer offers them (except in very rare cases), but Tom does.


And, massmanute, I'm also a believer in a wide meplat. You don't have to take it too far, though. Anything over about 70% of bullet diameter is plenty effective, in my experience. Going with a meplat as wide as possible (80%+) will often just result in a 'hard cast' bullet shearing pieces off the perimeter of the nose until it turns itself into a conical shape. ...kind of defeats the whole purpose of the wide meplat.


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