# Mike Lee is at it again



## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

A lot more at stake here than just sage grouse:

https://secure3.convio.net/trcp/site/Advocacy?alertId=457&pg=makeACall


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

We have such great representatives in our state-O,-


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

Without guys like Sen. Lee, the anti's would have every animal on the planet on the endangered species list and hunting would be banned. 
I'm not in agriculture but those of us who eat, should recognize some land should be used for it. And I think the Gunnison sage grouse is another Northern spotted owl or darter snail.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

redleg said:


> Without guys like Sen. Lee, the anti's would have every animal on the planet on the endangered species list and hunting would be banned.
> I'm not in agriculture but those of us who eat, should recognize some land should be used for it. And I think the Gunnison sage grouse is another Northern spotted owl or darter snail.


I can agree with you to some extent but fear mongering, which is what is done a lot is not a reason to let countless terrible measures go through. The republic party is hinging on gun control as their biggest fear they are trying to sell Americans on, then blame the other side because the goverent is meddling too much. Bottom line is a lot of Americans have had the equal opportunity, work hard for what you have an we all have an equal chance which in some senses just isn't true, if it were 1% wouldn't hold the money and the power to make decisions we all have to live with.

Neither side budges on these issues. One wants to overuse resources the other doesn't want to touch them. Both sides are wrong. As for the Gunnison sage grouse being the spotted owl, I think that's fear mongering. The Gunnison inhabits a very small range and didn't have great felt affects, nor will it. The greater sage grouse however is your spotted owl, and if better conservation and more conservation is not implemented and continued you'll watch them list it. Republicans need to stop trying to push off listing and conservation efforts and put the money where it will actually do good. If you don't want it listed invest in it and conservation of it.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

We were warned over two centuries ago that a two party system would be our undoing. The Framers were brilliant and owned the term forethought.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

I find it rather interesting that over 99.9% of the species that have gone extinct on our little rock did so without any help from humankind to do so


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

LostLouisianian said:


> I find it rather interesting that over 99.9% of the species that have gone extinct on our little rock did so without any help from humankind to do so


On the other hand, the rate of extinction (number of extinctions per year) seems to be unusually rapid now compared to ages past.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> We were warned over two centuries ago that a two party system would be our undoing. The Framers were brilliant and owned the term forethought.


It becomes worse every election it seems. Both parties have stabbed us all in the back from time to time. The party line is total opposites and for some reason I feel Utah is a red state in spite of the fact it has corrupted and ruined our state in many ways and with many stupid policies, yet voters here never vote different and the same officials continue to regain their place. It's really choosing the less of 2 evils, and it's hard to do when both sides are lie.

The Republican Party is playing the gun game. As long as they have a great mass number convinced they will defend their second amendment right and the left wants to take it away, they've got a lot of people on their side. It's just too bad people listen to that argument and believe that their second amendment is the only right they have while the Republican Party stabs you in the back a hundred other times. Our second amendment right isn't something to take lightly but it also isn't the only thing. I would hope as a society we will stand up before losing that right, swinging towards a party line isn't going to save your right, they'll feed you to the dogs as quick as they told you they'd save you. The Republican Party in many ways looks stupid by denying science based logic in the face of all proof. They slash conservation funding and policies, ignore safety for the general public in the name of getting rich and yet our states voters dont care to try out something new. They proved it again about a week ago when they voted that they wanted to repeal the newly defined clean water act with the votes completely split on party lines. Nestles CEO once said clean water is not a human right and it should be privatized. Now if you don't believe in bought politicians by the 1% the fact they want to repeal the act so companies worth billions aren't penalized for ruining our water supplies should wake you up. You have idiotic news stations like fox feeding Americans full of the bull that you all have an equal chance in this country, that went away long ago when the 1% decided to take 99% of profits, ship work out of the country, and become even richer while purchasing politicians by paying for their campaigns and making you believe they are creating jobs by taking tax cuts and bailouts and shipping jobs over seas. If you really buy into the hard work gives everyone the same chance you've been brainwashed by believing what your told. With a country as rich as ours, it shouldn't be in the condition it currently is. Utah isn't as bad as other places for it but our middle class could be doing much better if the 1% would pay their taxes and stop believing they are entitled to 99% of company profits. A country where poor people pay 30+% taxes and a billionaire pays 15% or less taxes and sends the savings overseas is a broken system.

Democrats are too far in the way that the government should give you everything. This is also wrong. A society relying fully on government is not a healthy or driven society. IMO though, our country can afford to give our citizens clean water, decent wages, healthcare, and not burden the middle class to pay for it all. We should work for what we have, but we should also be ensured life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness like was intended. America is good enough to fix all these problems, strengthen our education system, stabilize our economy, and take care of our citizens. The problem is we have two parties who are at a constant chess match, lazy/uninformed voters, and billionaires cheating ways to become more rich. America is a great country, but we can learn some things from other countries as well. If we knew everything like we think we do, our country wouldn't be such a mess.

Okay rant over, that probably got to political for the forum but policy after policy is being undercut, underfunded, and fought against by the Republican Party and its tiring to see. I'm tired of funding being cut, I'm tired of good policies being challenged for the wrong reasons, tired of this worthless land exchange fight and hope these issues can be resolved in a decent way. All that being said we live in a great place and a great state, too many corrupt individuals are trying to ruin that though.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

redleg said:


> Without guys like Sen. Lee, the anti's would have every animal on the planet on the endangered species list and hunting would be banned.
> I'm not in agriculture but those of us who eat, should recognize some land should be used for it. And I think the Gunnison sage grouse is another Northern spotted owl or darter snail.


I'd be interested to hear about any effort Lee ever made to stop any "anti's". Meanwhile, seems to me that he's one of the most serious threats to hunting, fishing and conservation that I can recall.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey 1-I, if you think this state has been "ruined" by politicians, why don't you get out more. I work in 23 of the western states and, in my humble opinion, Utah is one of the best overall places by far. ------SS


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

The Second Amendment was put as number two because it's always best to sit down and have an intelligent conversation first after you've gotten the attention of government through free speech. The Second Amendment then, in fact, protects and ensures the other Amendments and to keep the government in line from a tyrannical path. That is why gov't wants to rid this country of what they feel is the scourge of civilization.

I agree, even though UT may seem to have poor policies, travel to NM where it is blue. "They" will tell you its purple, but in fact it is blue. We have two dingbats in DC that have recently championed a bill and got it to pass to take away a piece of land managed for public use that was not BLM, National Monument, or NP. Now it is NP and who knows if you'll continue to get to hunt on it...


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> Hey 1-I, if you think this state has been "ruined" by politicians, why don't you get out more. I work in 23 of the western states and, in my humble opinion, Utah is one of the best overall places by far. ------SS


I never stated Utah was the worst, in a sea of **** we're not all that stinky, but for sportsmen some of the worst ideas are surfacing from Utah daily. Neither blue nor red do us much good, the middle ground is what would do us good, but each side has agendas to follow.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> The Second Amendment was put as number two because it's always best to sit down and have an intelligent conversation first after you've gotten the attention of government through free speech. The Second Amendment then, in fact, protects and ensures the other Amendments and to keep the government in line from a tyrannical path. That is why gov't wants to rid this country of what they feel is the scourge of civilization.
> 
> I agree, even though UT may seem to have poor policies, travel to NM where it is blue. "They" will tell you its purple, but in fact it is blue. We have two dingbats in DC that have recently championed a bill and got it to pass to take away a piece of land managed for public use that was not BLM, National Monument, or NP. Now it is NP and who knows if you'll continue to get to hunt on it...


Our and other governments have far scarier weapons than an AR15 to use against us if it ever really comes to the annihilation/control of its people.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

redleg said:


> Without guys like Sen. Lee, the anti's would have every animal on the planet on the endangered species list and hunting would be banned.
> I'm not in agriculture but those of us who eat, should recognize some land should be used for it. And I think the Gunnison sage grouse is another Northern spotted owl or darter snail.


Good thing our reps have the foresight to hire guys like Benson. I'm also glad such a great guy like benson will sit down and give interviews to show how he has spent our money. I think that wool you have grown needs to be sheared cause it's clouding your eyes.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I think the de-listing by law vs. scientific process is an interesting one for sure. It is reactionary to the power that Congress granted to USFWS through the Endangered Species Act that places far too much influence in the hands of a GS-9 biostitute with an agenda for something. For example, during the Bush era, no species that was considered candidate species, was listed at threatened or endangered. The rule from the top was to not list anything. And now we see the backlog of nominated and candidate species that are being forced for decision. But in the mean time, USFWS biostitutes along with their counterparts in BLM, Forest Service, and state wildlife agencies have worked through Agency memos, to elevate candidate species to the same protections afforded those that are listed. And that is a very scary thought. 

But like the wolf issue, USFWS refused to de-list when population objectives were met, which they agreed to do in their very own recovery plans. So after fighting about it in court, Idaho and Montana got a rider put on whatever bill it was to delist in their states and the states gained control. If USFWS had agreed to the terms they set on wolf management, then that wouldn't have been necessary.

Now we have this huge decade long push to shut down development in sage steppe, and quite honestly, I can't blame the push to change the way energy development has completely trashed some areas. But the protector sorts see listing the grouse as the most far reaching and effective way to address the most lands. True that grouse are declining, but they still number in the hundreds of thousands in every state they reside. And the declines have more to do with fire and range management, than they have to do with the patchwork of energy development. But the proponents of sage grouse listing want to not only keep the energy development out, but grazing as well. And as long as USFWS is vested with that power through the ESA, and there is a President that will back those actions, it is far closer to a reality than any might think. And the part that frustrates me about any of it as much as anything else, is the millions of dollars spent over the past several years with numerous working groups wanting to do the right thing, and instead that money could have been spent on real habitat restoration and improvement instead of salaried employees traveling around to talk about it. 

So with a President more than willing to list something that in all reality doesn't need to be listed, a USFWS that would love to see development and livestock off of the lands, and holding up ESA as the flag before the whole issue, experience shows that an agenda pushed like this by USFWS will move forward. 

So now Lee ( whom I seldom agree with) is going to run an end-around the whole deal and use Congress to slap down USFWS. If that happens, I REALLY hope that USFWS takes the hint about overreaching their power. The measures that Wyoming, Colorado, Utah and Nevada have taken to avoid listing have been, and will continue to be significant. Heck, even O&G industry are on board and are making sure that Jona and Anticline don't happen again. Yet USFWS continues to pursue listing where it isn't warranted, even though actions are happening. If they continue to push as they have and are pushing on the grouse issue, then Congress will and SHOULD intervene in exercising the checks and balances that should exist.

But that's just me.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> I think the de-listing by law vs. scientific process is an interesting one for sure. It is reactionary to the power that Congress granted to USFWS through the Endangered Species Act that places far too much influence in the hands of a GS-9 biostitute with an agenda for something. For example, during the Bush era, no species that was considered candidate species, was listed at threatened or endangered. The rule from the top was to not list anything. And now we see the backlog of nominated and candidate species that are being forced for decision. But in the mean time, USFWS biostitutes along with their counterparts in BLM, Forest Service, and state wildlife agencies have worked through Agency memos, to elevate candidate species to the same protections afforded those that are listed. And that is a very scary thought.
> 
> But like the wolf issue, USFWS refused to de-list when population objectives were met, which they agreed to do in their very own recovery plans. So after fighting about it in court, Idaho and Montana got a rider put on whatever bill it was to delist in their states and the states gained control. If USFWS had agreed to the terms they set on wolf management, then that wouldn't have been necessary.
> 
> ...


I read on TRCPs Facebook page the senate moved forward with a plan that won't undercut current sage grouse conservation efforts, which means his proposals were shot down I believe. I agree with what you've said, and I don't think the grouse needs to be listed, but I do think we need to see better management of or lands, problem is they're using the push everyone else off a cliff tactic to get there. We need some energy development and grazing, I'm not for it being shut down, but it needs to be done more wisely. If they don't want the grouse listed stop paying for politicians and lobbyists and improve what you do to the land and improve the habitat. As for state plans, I think the state plan should oversee state and private lands, but the federal government (BLM/FS) should administer the plan they recently released. Their job is to oversee and manage the public lands and I think their plan should be used for public lands. Either way if the greater sage grouse is listed it is going to have some affects and they better do all the rigt things between now and September to avoid it.


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

I think it's about time we listed the passenger pigeon and the Carolina parakeet. What do you all think?


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Our and other governments have far scarier weapons than an AR15 to use against us if it ever really comes to the annihilation/control of its people.


So did the British military and look what happened...


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

And the US Congress (not the US military) had it's a$$ handed to it in 1973 by the Viet Cong, who were not as well armed or as militarily sophisticated as we readers of this blog are.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Kissinger sold out the U.S. at the Paris talks


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

redleg said:


> And the US Congress (not the US military) had it's a$$ handed to it in 1973 by the Viet Cong, who were not as well armed or as militarily sophisticated as we readers of this blog are.


One can second guess this thing and armchair general it all day, but the bottom line is that General Giap and Ho Chi Minh did what it took to win. The US military and Government did not.

It's unlikely that the US would have won that war under any rules of engagement that would have been acceptable to the people back home. Why? in part because the commies wanted it more and would make whatever sacrifice it would take to avoid losing. The US did not and would not.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

A letter was delivered to the Senate yesterday morning opposing any legislation that delays or obstructs the federal decision making process relating to sage grouse.

"_We define success for the forthcoming sage-grouse listing decision as keeping the bird off of the endangered species list and grouse populations under continued management by the states. We believe that the recently introduced federal plans for federal lands, coupled with strong state conservation plans and voluntary efforts from private landowners are the best paths to success._"

The letter was signed by 40 sportsmen's organizations.

*Lee withdrew his amendment yesterday afternoon.
*
We can expect more shenanigans in the near future, so more signatory organizations are welcome. If you're a member of an organization with a stake in this important land management issue, ask your leadership where they stand and encourage them to sign on.

Here's why:


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