# Wildlife Board Meeting=Everything Passed



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

DWR got everthing they asked for! And most of it was unanimous. The Monroe spike elk and Sanpete Extended bull proposals took some time, but in the end, there's no spike elk rifle hunt on the Monroe and cows only on the Sanpete Extended. And Junior gets to use your tag for all hunts and there will be deer transplants which we'll pay for and the Dedicated Hunters legal rule changes per the new 30 unit plan passed. Also the Oak Creek RM Bighorn management plan passed. I missed the first hour, but I think the hunt dates will remain as scheduled, the CWMU and Landowner permit numbers will be as proposed, and the crossbow/muzzle scope during any weapon hunts deals also passed

There were some additional items either put on hold or passed on to the legislators for action or for further study and/or discussion and they were:
1) Inserting in the species plans, predator control, which we'll also pay for, (in some cases, even cougars) in release areas prior to any transplant of any species.
2) Extending the goat hunts to December 31st in order to allow the hunter to harvest one with a full winter coat if he/she chooses to risk access.
3) Reconciling the differences in the qualifing ages for youth in applying for an LE, CWMU or OIL tag (14-17) and becoming a mentee in the new hunter mentor program(12-17).

I think I got everything, but I have to admit I didn't take notes and I missed some of the audio because I have a bad cold or the flu and I had to leave my post a few times, usually in a hurry. -O,-

Anyway, some of you may have listened also and could fill in what I may have missed (or got wrong). Feel free to do so!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Is there somewhere I can look at the CWMU numbers?


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

You missed the part where everyone with some common sense about transplants and the culling of predators prior to transplants PUKED!


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## BigD (Sep 25, 2007)

It was my understanding that a board member made the motion to keep the Sanpete extended elk the way it is now and they voted to keep it.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

So we are going to kill cougars before we transplant deer? Why not save some cost. Just kill the cougars and let the population naturally rebound - you might able to skip the transplant. Why is cougar management completely ignored in regards to mule deer populations.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

^^^^ winner!!!!!!!!!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)




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## papaderf (Aug 24, 2013)

that's funny:grin:. Their is never forgiveness. Jaja


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## wshiwsfshn (May 9, 2008)

Please explain the DH changes? I hadn't heard anything was changing.


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## WarYak (Nov 25, 2008)

What was the Dedicated Hunter change?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> DWR got everthing they asked for! And most of it was unanimous. The Monroe spike elk and Sanpete Extended bull proposals took some time, but in the end, there's no spike elk rifle hunt on the Monroe and cows only on the Sanpete Extended. And Junior gets to use your tag for all hunts and there will be deer transplants which we'll pay for and the Dedicated Hunters legal rule changes per the new 30 unit plan passed. Also the Oak Creek RM Bighorn management plan passed. I missed the first hour, but I think the hunt dates will remain as scheduled, the CWMU and Landowner permit numbers will be as proposed, and the crossbow/muzzle scope during any weapon hunts deals also passed
> 
> There were some additional items either put on hold or passed on to the legislators for action or for further study and/or discussion and they were:
> 1) Inserting in the species plans, predator control, which we'll also pay for, (in some cases, even cougars) in release areas prior to any transplant of any species.
> ...


Alright you all want to hear my thoughts right.

First off I'm happy the spike on Monroe passed, I do hope that between the Muzzleloader and archery hunt though enough bulls are taken off the unit to sustain a healthy bull:cow ratio. As for the Sanpete archery, I don't imagine many elk are killed anyway but I think it would have been fine the way it was.

I don't like the hunter mentor thing, to me it sets sort of a bad example with the using of anothers tag, but I don't think it will do much harm and who knows maybe it will get more youth involved in the sport, although I think there are better ways to do so.

Next transplanting. I do not agree with this, or the prior predator removal, obviously the DWR can't really agree with it either, which poses the question who's really running Utah's wildlife the DWR or SFW, because it sure seems like whatever SFW wants they get despite the Division having to know it's a waste of money. Transplanting doesn't do enough good to spend so much time and money with it, and predator removal so those deer can survive is just weaking your heard as a whole. That's why nature intended for the smart and strong to survive while the weak and stupid died off, not let the stupid survive anyway. Predators have their place in a natural environment, I understand control of them but elimination of them is not the correct path. Good management of predators and their prey will result in the best and highest yields for both. I do believe in some situations predators can pose and blocks for population stability and growth, but only when the habitat isn't supporting what it could. For the most part coyotes and cougars are not the major limiting factor in our state, there do pose problems for things like pheasants, chukars, forest grouse, and things like that probably , maybe there'll at least be good effects for them. For deer the predator BS that's going on is not helping deer or elk.

It amazes me how SFW can put about a million dollars on the table one time with things such as these deer transplants and predator control and somehow with that on the table they somehow have the power to sway the DWR to spent millions upon millions for years to come on useless projects that they start for good PR, and yet they get there way every time..... can I ask you the question of why? I know I may seem like I agree a lot with the SFW mind set, ya I like big bucks and big bulls, but if these two BS things that passed taught me anything it's that SFW has more say and power on our states wildlife and the money the DWR has than we or the DWR do themselves. These two things that passed make no sense, have research telling you there wrong, and yet they put a million on the table for predator control, and spend money on 1 collared deer transplant so now that's where we get to spend our money from now on. I would much rather see such wasted money spent on habitat for our big game, upland, waterfowl, fishing, anything else but this, they would have much greater effects for our populations than what its going to be dumped down the drain on. It also takes the opportunity of hunting those deer away, so instead of harvesting them, 60-70% of them get to go die on some unit there transplanted to. Wasteful is the word.

Mountain goats- if someone chooses to hunt during that time, let them.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> View attachment 24690


 Haha some of the posters on this site are ruthless. Ruthless I tell ya.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

So what age can you transfer a tag to a youth. 12-17?
Does this mean they just lowered the age for le tags to 12?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Awesome!! Can wait to put in mom and grandma x4. Just increased our odds!


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

If they make the new youth age for all hunts 17, I'm going to ask them if I can hunt the next two youth hunt days to make up for the time I lost when I was 16-17.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Somebody aught to get in here and make a TV show.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Didn't most the rac meetings vote against the monroe change? I thought I read that in the meeting info before today.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> Awesome!! Can wait to put in mom and grandma x4. Just increased our odds!


Pluss one! Just made the call to my parents and mentors


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

provider said:


> So we are going to kill cougars before we transplant deer? Why not save some cost. Just kill the cougars and let the population naturally rebound - you might able to skip the transplant. Why is cougar management completely ignored in regards to mule deer populations.


 It isn't.....it is just that killing cougar to restore mule deer herds has yielded disappointing results in every instance it's been tried. There is a little thing called additive versus compensatory predation that has to be understood.


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Way to go on the mentor program BS.... oh well, might as well join the crowd, and decrease any chance guys have waited years for, in goes Grandmas and grandpas, all the kids, step kids, cousins both sides of the family, hell I might even adopt....


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Is there somewhere I can look at the CWMU numbers?


Here's the link showing the CWMU's that had changes, 
And what the nubers are:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/2013-11_rac_packet.pdf


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

wshiwsfshn said:


> Please explain the DH changes? I hadn't heard anything was changing.


Here's the DH changes:


Recommendations for this rule:​•​Remove outdated wording that is specific to 2012​
•​Simplify sentence structure and eliminate redundancy​
•​Reorganize the sequence of sections​
•​Remove unnecessary dates (specifically permit printing and permit return dates)​
•​Clarify portions that were incomplete or in conflict with other parts of the rule​
•​Allow a Dedicated Hunter that has finished the 3rd year, but still has incomplete service hours, to
be allowed to pay for, or provide service to complete them​
•​Change a COR expiration from Dec. 31 to the final day of the general deer season​
•​Incorporates the new definition of "youth"​
•​Define when a surrendered COR merits a reinstatement of a preference point​
•​Clarify the options for a participant that also is offered a poaching reported reward permit​
• Adjust the annual service hour requirement distribution


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## wshiwsfshn (May 9, 2008)

Thanks Goofy.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

RandomElk,
4 out of 5 of the RACs actually voted in favor of removing the any weapon spike hunt on the Monroe. If you also read it this was a recommendation from the UDWR the WB just passed what the Division was recommending. I little more than a napkin meeting went into the decision.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

goofy elk said:


> Here's the link showing the CWMU's that had changes,
> And what the nubers are:
> 
> http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/2013-11_rac_packet.pdf


Thanks for posting that. Just went through the whole thing.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> So what age can you transfer a tag to a youth. 12-17?
> Does this mean they just lowered the age for le tags to 12?


SW, On the mentor program.
I've just gone through everythhing (Ithink?) and something is not
adding up??

It appears youth can recive a LE or OIAL Mentor tag at age 12 ?..

But still can not apply for these permits until they turn age 14 ? .....

Can anyone that was at the board meeting shed some light on this issue?


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Kevin D said:


> There is a little thing called additive versus compensatory predation that has to be understood.


Additive predation is when SFW adds up all the revenue they get from pimping out our tags. That revenue is then placed in their bank accounts or given out to their friends via "approved" projects.

Compensatory predation happens when some of that revenue is used to grease the palms of our law makers, thus compensating them for voting in favor of SFW.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

^ ^ ^ Uhmmmmm.......YUP! ^ ^ ^


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the 'official' DWR news release about the changes, link:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/1320-board-approves-hunting-changes.html


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## robiland (Jan 20, 2008)

So I guess my mom is now going to apply this year for everything that she can so that if she draws a tag in the next 20 years, my kids can have her tag. Awesome!!! I would love to see the increase in apps this coming year. Should be interesting. I disagree 100% with the mentoring program. But, if its there, I will take advantage of it. I have kids from the age of 9, 7, 5 and 2. So 15 years of extra apps for my MOM, I mean for my kids!!!


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## rayburt (Jan 20, 2010)

*Just in time*

Sure am glad I'm old and already used my points for LE Elk and LE Deer. This is going to be a circus.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Anymore talk about taking deer on military bases?


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> On the mentor program.
> I've just gone through everythhing (Ithink?) and something is not
> adding up??
> It appears youth can recive a LE or OIAL Mentor tag at age 12 ?..
> ...


There was actually quite a bit of discussion on this topic at the northern RAC (discussion on the mentor program begins at the bottom of page 141 of the board meeting packet, http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/2013-12_board_packet.pdf). From what I could gather since it's in "the code" it would take legislature to change that minimum age for applying for LE hunts. At least that's my understanding but at least there are others that feel it doesn't add up.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

as for all these "time to start putting in mom/gma/gpa" folks...remember, they have to be in the field with the kid when the trigger is pulled.....this is where I don't think it will be such a terrible effect.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> as for all these "time to start putting in mom/gma/gpa" folks...remember, they have to be in the field with the kid when the trigger is pulled.....this is where I don't think it will be such a terrible effect.


Ha ha ha you haven't been on two many LE hunts in utah. I can honestly say you can get a good elk,deer, antelope, driving roads. Gramps won't have to even get out of the truck!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Sw, you are right. I have not been on two LE hunts....rather a number north of that!;-) And can you do it on the road? Sure, but you still have to get them there.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^ Yep, Gramps in the back seat, Swing off the road, Use the tailgate for a dead rest..8)..^^^


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> SW, On the mentor program.
> I've just gone through everythhing (Ithink?) and something is not
> adding up??
> 
> ...


That's how it reads in the current code. The issue was brought up and it seems that we will have to go to the legislators to rewrite the code in order to fix it, if they chose to do so, so we don't know the final outcome yet. It could remain the same, or both could be bumped up to 14 years, or both dropped down to 12 years.

Also, be aware that waiting periods for the youth do not apply, including the OIL tags. In other words, the youth can use his grandpa's moose tag when he's 12-13 and then can start applying for his own when he's 14. Or he can use his grandpa's moose tag and his dad's moose tag, until he's 18, all the while building points for his own tag. ONLY when he draws his own moose tag does the OIL rule apply. And all LE and CWMU tags also have that same waiting period scenerio.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Sw, you are right. I have not been on two LE hunts....rather a number north of that!;-) And can you do it on the road? Sure, but you still have to get them there.


Ha ha getting them there is the easy part!


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Ha ha getting them there is the easy part!


Yep. That's no trouble at all.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Thanks EFA,
Thats the way I red it....A 12 year old can hunt OIAL & LE on the mentor program.

Am I the only on here that freak'in LOVE's this ???????

I know my kids are going to LOVE this program !!!!!!

SOOO glad I turned in that LE Anthro archery elk tag last year ...

Now when I draw it, Two trees stands over the Wallows !!!!
OMG, were going to have a riot!
Legal to both have bow's too.......Even tho, I'll probbaly never draw back.;-).


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Ha ha ha you haven't been on two many LE hunts in utah. I can honestly say you can get a good elk,deer, antelope, driving roads. Gramps won't have to even get out of the truck!


Can't gramps do that under the current law?? Whether or not there is a mentor program, gramps and grams can still ride along in a truck with a tag. Allowing a youth to pull the trigger with gramps sitting in the truck won't change that.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

fastcamo said:


> Way to go on the mentor program BS.... oh well, might as well join the crowd, and decrease any chance guys have waited years for, in goes Grandmas and grandpas, all the kids, step kids, cousins both sides of the family, hell I might even adopt....


Actually, the nephew/uncle issue came up! The only reason given by the DWR for not doing it was the compensation aspect. They figure dad and grandpa aren't going to charge the kid for the tag, but Uncle Ralph might. Or Uncle Ralph might charge dad for it. Or dad may offer to pay his siblings to apply for the tag. Anyway, since the issue came up this time, you can bet it's gonna show it's ugly head again.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

PBH said:


> Can't gramps do that under the current law?? Whether or not there is a mentor program, gramps and grams can still ride along in a truck with a tag. Allowing a youth to pull the trigger with gramps sitting in the truck won't change that.


Now it's legal for the kid to fill gramps tag! That's the difference.8).:!:


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Now it's legal for the kid to fill gramps tag! That's the difference.8).:!:


Interestingly enough, that was also an issue at the Southern RAC. In fact, the first public speaker on the Mentor program addressed it (with a lot of snickers from the public and the RAC), and the RAC member I talked to after the meeting admitted he also has done it and is now glad it's legal.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> That's how it reads in the current code. The issue was brought up and it seems that we will have to go to the legislators to rewrite the code in order to fix it, if they chose to do so, so we don't know the final outcome yet. It could remain the same, or both could be bumped up to 14 years, or both dropped down to 12 years.
> 
> Also, be aware that waiting periods for the youth do not apply, including the OIL tags. In other words, the youth can use his grandpa's moose tag when he's 12-13 and then can start applying for his own when he's 14. Or he can use his grandpa's moose tag and his dad's moose tag, until he's 18, all the while building points for his own tag. ONLY when he draws his own moose tag does the OIL rule apply. And all LE and CWMU tags also have that same waiting period scenerio.


As far as points go, won't the net result be the same? The only difference will be _who_ shoots the animal. The points situation will remain. Meaning, there wouldn't be any extra points in the pool due to the kid not having a waiting period.

The Monroe Spike proposal was accepted unanimously in 4 RAC meetings and passed 6/4 in the remaining region, if I remember correctly.

The San Pete Valley extended bit was confusing and entertaining. One person representing several landowners got up and made a great plea for his case of maintaining the bull portion to offset costs associated with depredation, fencing destruction etc. In short they have an association that charges trespass/guide fees to hunt the private lands where many of the elk reside this time of year. That is until he told everyone they were baiting in the elk that were doing the damage they were seeking to offset. Quite a few of the board members saw that as a red flag and said as much. Somehow after the smoke cleared they didn't accept the recommendation to eliminate the bull portion of the hunt. Strange.

From subsequent conversations I would expect outlawing baiting to be on the docket in future meetings.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Do you really think everyone will pay in $45 more dollars a year for each person to put in for big game tags, you have to have your hunting license, and pay the application fee for everyone putting in for each species, that could get expensive. Hunting license fees are going up next year too, I just don't know if it will be worth it putting grandpa, grandma, mom, and the 4 other people in the family. I don't like it at all, I understand getting youth involved, but to me its going against your original set of rules and guidelines that kids should be taught, this is teaching you don't need your own tag in Utah to hunt you can use someone elses. Hate it but have to live with it, sort of like the SFW deer transplants and predator control.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Goofy, I'm with you on this. I see it as a great thing and I don't think the abuse of it will be as rampant as some here would lead you to believe.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Goofy, I'm with you on this. I see it as a great thing and I don't think the abuse of it will be as rampant as some here would lead you to believe.


Let me make it as clear and to the point as I can. I am totally going to abuse it! Except its not abuse. Abuse would be what happens when its illegal.

Don't hate the player hate the game!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

sw, you are fully within your right to do so as long as you follow the rules. But I just don't think it will "bog down/break" the current system. If anything, it just flushes points faster through the system by burning the candle at both ends.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

In my case I hope your right. I don't want to compete with everyone else and I hope they don't put in

but I don't mind my kids competing with everyone else. 

Again don't hate the player hate the game


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Its also in my case not burning the candle from both ends and flushing the system. Its adding to the system but you have to pay to play


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> Let me make it as clear and to the point as I can. I am totally going to abuse it! Except its not abuse. Abuse would be what happens when its illegal.
> 
> Don't hate the player hate the game!


Yep, this is going to screw people... I paid for 7 years of bison points for my mom over the years. I stopped for a short time but I guess I'll keep going now before she looses them! That puts my now 13 year old at 7 years of points vs others his age that wont even get their first point for 2 more years. By then he'll have effectively 9.

Seriously, we've kicked the sled over the slippery slope. What next, allowing anyone to use the tag? We'll have people farming points and selling tags on ebay in no time. Perhaps the SWF will work themselves into a brokerage service.

-DallanC


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Yep, this is going to screw people... I paid for 7 years of bison points for my mom over the years. I stopped for a short time but I guess I'll keep going now before she looses them! That puts my now 13 year old at 7 years of points vs others his age that wont even get their first point for 2 more years. By then he'll have effectively 9.
> 
> -DallanC


Hahaha-- not that easy! She has 3 grandkids who will want to be the shooter. Who will be her favorite? haha Can-Of-Worms comes to mind.

I find the following very interesting-- They are called "Mentor" tags, yet the only ones who qualify for the permits are ALREADY BEING MENTORED! This does not help mentor the kid who comes from the non-hunting family. This only helps the kid that already hunts. Goofy, Me, SW, etc. have kids who will benefit, but the 3 kids from non-hunting families in my neighborhood will be left out of this fine program.

One more thought-- how are they defining "Legal Guardian". I signed a permission form for my son to go on Scout Camp last week. The permission transferred my guardianship to the scout master for the duration of the camp. Can a person transfer guardianship for the duration of the hunt to a non-family member?

Here is the legal definition of guardian- http://www.utcourts.gov/resources/glossary.htm
guardian - A guardian has the authority to consent, on behalf of an infant, child or incompetent, to marriage, enlistment in the armed forces, or major medical, surgical, or psychiatric treatment.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> sw, you are fully within your right to do so as long as you follow the rules. But I just don't think it will "bog down/break" the current system. If anything, it just flushes points faster through the system by burning the candle at both ends.


No, it doesn't flush points faster, nor burn it at both ends because the youth incurs no loss of points or waiting periods.

The program will do the following:
-Increase applications, which will make it harder (slight or significant) to draw.
-Increase revenue for the UDWR (slight or significant)
-Divide families. Which one of the 10 grandkids gets to shoot Gpa's elk? I have already seen this first hand -TODAY- between two clients, arguing about whose kid will get to shoot their grandma's elk.

The program will not mentor the kids who need to be mentored. The qualifying youth who will participate already come from hunting families. My kids don't need mentored tags, nor do Goofy's. In fact, I'd wager Goofy's kids and mine would have just as much fun watching Gpa or Mom pull the trigger as they would if they pulled it. I feel for the kid down the street who I take hunting. He has no family member to piggy back on. This program doesn't benefit him at all.

I like the opportunity it provides for life-threatening illnesses.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

One thing this new change will do is slow down the attrition rate. Every year people decide to give up putting in due to health, age and whatnot. Now, folks that otherwise might have quit, will keep putting in till they die just so someone else can shoot their critter.

It absolutely is going to make things worse to draw going forward as there will be more people sticking around longer.


-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

> No, it doesn't flush points faster, nor burn it at both ends because the youth incurs no loss of points or waiting periods.


That is an interesting point. I guess I hadn't seen where that was stipulated, but now that I look back I cannot see where I came up with the idea that they both would lose their points.


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

I'll be a mentor-- my binoculars are for sale for $5,000.. it just happpen's to come with a nice elk tag.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

Kevin D,

Seemed to work pretty great in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. Deer hunting went down in Utah when cougars went to L.E. How's that for science? 

I'd love to see an "experiment" on the south side of Pine Valley Mountain.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The division is going to run this mentor program for about 10 years, scrap it then, and thank everyone that jumped at the chance to put Aunt Bethany in for hunts for donating their money.


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

For my entire life, more than 60 years, the DWR has said that party hunting is unsportsmanlike, immoral, and steals from the honest sportsman in our state. Then they pass this "mentoring" law? What's next? Are they going to pass a law that poaching is okay if you are 17 or under?

So now a 12 year old gets to put in for an OIL draw 9 times or more (for example, 2 grandparents from biological father, 2 grandparents from stepfather, 2 grandparents from mother, 1 biological father, 1 step father, 1 mother) and an honest hunter only gets to put in 1 time? Are there really people on this forum that believe this is fair? What lesson is this teaching our children? Are there really people on this forum that say this will not affect the already nearly impossible draw odds? Decent honest people who don't play the system are going to get screwed.

I am convinced that the only hope left is to take the case to the courts and the 93% of Utah residents that don't hunt. We need to reach out and appeal to them for help.

On a side note, I wonder how Grandma and Grandpa are going to decide what blessed favorite child gets the tag. There is bound to be bad feelings when Grandpa gives his big horn sheep tag that took a lifetime to draw to only one grandchild. I believe in karma. The unsportsmanlike party hunters will reap what they sow.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

If it's legal and the DWR OKs it whether I agree or not I'm going to use it to my advantage. So are my kids and all my inlaws. I'm lucky, my kids are the only ones that hunt. So I have 5 chances. Can't wait. And the 93% of people aren't going to care.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

^^^^ yup, and next year they'll allow inheritance of points! I should have been putting my parents and sister in all along. My grandparents and great grandparents, too. That way, if my great grandparents are alive after they pass the inheritance rule, I'll be able to hunt whatever I want in Utah. Even unicorn! Heck, I also should have split my parents up for two Christmas's and even more points to hunt buffalo when they remarried!!!!!


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

martymcfly73 said:


> If it's legal and the DWR OKs it whether I agree or not I'm going to use it to my advantage. So are my kids and all my inlaws. I'm lucky, my kids are the only ones that hunt. So I have 5 chances. Can't wait. And the 93% of people aren't going to care.


I have no doubt you will milk it for everything you can. I said it was going to be the decent honest people that get screwed.

Do not underestimate the power or the interest of the 93%. If they can be informed and convinced that raising tag prices will lower their taxes I'm guessing it will get their attention... stay tuned.


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

How are people being dishonest?? You are right....my son will probably get to hunt 4 elk, two henry or paunsagant bucks and a moose in the next several years. If he don't....I have two nephews, if this includes great grand parents they'll will no doubt be hunting two buffalo, several elk and a few deer. Between their parents, step parents, grand parents, step grand parents. Most are near or at max points or will be by the time they can hunt. My nephews could in theory shoot ten bulls two bucks and a buffalo by time they hit 17. By the time this happens, they'll already be starting their own points and should be able to draw another one around thirty. After that start saving for their kids. I'd love to see inherited points. My kids, nieces abd nephews, cousins kids, clear to grand kids could be hunting trophies every few years. Don't hate da playa homie, hate the game. This does not make any if us dishonest....this just makes the kids fortunate to have a family that hunts and would rather let a kid shoot our animal. I enjoy watching kids hunt and the thrill and excitement they have. You can bet we'll start planning our family's kids future hunts just like planning and putting away for collage. I love this program!!!,


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

This should also encourage those of you that tolerate a pain in the ass wife to get divorced. In the long run it could potentially really benefit the kids! :grin:


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

oldTimer said:


> I have no doubt you will milk it for everything you can. I said it was going to be the decent honest people that get screwed.
> 
> Do not underestimate the power or the interest of the 93%. If they can be informed and convinced that raising tag prices will lower their taxes I'm guessing it will get their attention... stay tuned.


I guess if you've hunted for 60 years its time to hang it up. I'm only doing what the state allows me to do. Nothing wring with it. Perfectly legal.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

What I would like to know is how many of you were at the Wildlife Board meeting to voice you're opinions (or sent emails, texts, snail mail, or made phone calls)? I couldn't make it because of the weather, flu, and a prior commitment for the use of my vehicle, but I did send an email several days before the meeting. At the Southern RAC, I thought I was the only one in Utah that thought this was a can of worms and I was the only one there who opposed it (General hunts and antlerless, yes, but LE and OIL, no.) and I was personally ridiculed for saying so, both publically and privately. I'm sorry for being so harsh, but if this forum is the only place you voice your opinion, then you get what you deserve.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> What I would like to know is how many of you were at the Wildlife Board meeting to voice you're opinions (or sent emails, texts, snail mail, or made phone calls)? I couldn't make it because of the weather, flu, and a prior commitment for the use of my vehicle, but I did send an email several days before the meeting. At the Southern RAC, I thought I was the only one in Utah that thought this was a can of worms and I was the only one there who opposed it (General hunts and antlerless, yes, but LE and OIL, no.) and I was personally ridiculed for saying so, both publically and privately. I'm sorry for being so harsh, but if this forum is the only place you voice your opinion, then you get what you deserve.


once the wheels have been greased or palms when it comes to utah,, it matters very little about public input at that point.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

utahgolf said:


> once the wheels have been greased or palms when it comes to utah,, it matters very little about public input at that point.


Yup
I learned a long time ago its all bs. Ecerything has been passed months in advance with dirty backdoor deals.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^ Backdoor deals ? NOPE.:!:.,,,, Coffee shop's on napkin's.;-)..NO bs....^^^^


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

SW, golf,
Who was greasing the wheels on this one? Just curious who you believe pushed for the "mentor" program? 

P.S. I'm not a big fan of the program or future of point inheritance either.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I have no idea who pushed this one and I don't care. Do I think its a stupid thing to get passed? yes! Do I think it will help with point creap? No! I just play what ever game utah throws at me every year because like I said when I was involved things were passed months in advance with a lot of back slapping and special hand shakes. The wracs and wildlife board is just the pony show they have to do to look official.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> SW, golf,
> Who was greasing the wheels on this one? Just curious who you believe pushed for the "mentor" program?
> 
> P.S. I'm not a big fan of the program or future of point inheritance either.


specifically, my point was more to the fact that once they have their minds made up, it matters very little at that point what the general public says at a board meeting. I think it just came down to a money thing like usual, they know they'll see a bump in apps & licenses,, so ahead they went with it.


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## cfoodluvr (Feb 19, 2008)

I don't believe that this has been discussed. The news release on the dwr website said that the tag could only be transferred to a "non-licensed youth hunter". No license means no hunting anything else that year, and not putting in for any other tags. Seems like too big of a gamble in hopes that grandma or grandpa draws a tag. If this is the case, the kids that already hunt will not even be eligible to use the mentors tag.


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## IDHunter (Dec 17, 2007)

My father hasn't hunted in 30 years but he's going to start building points now for my kids (with my money). The best part is that my dad is a Utah resident but we're not. This is going to make it much cheaper for them to apply and get tags. My son is only 2, so he should have a good start on points by the time he's 12.


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## cfoodluvr (Feb 19, 2008)

IDHunter said:


> My father hasn't hunted in 30 years but he's going to start building points now for my kids (with my money). The best part is that my dad is a Utah resident but we're not. This is going to make it much cheaper for them to apply and get tags. My son is only 2, so he should have a good start on points by the time he's 12.


I read the rac meeting notes and the mentored youth need to be utah residents


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## IDHunter (Dec 17, 2007)

cfoodluvr said:


> I read the rac meeting notes and the mentored youth need to be utah residents


They also motioned to ask the legislature to remove the residency requirement. I guess we'll have to see what the final outcome ends up being.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

How do I place my bet on just how many people will misunderstand this change and be using magnified scopes during the muzzy hunt?


> *Magnifying scopes, draw locks and crossbows*
> Another change the board approved will allow the use of three items during Utah's *any-weapon big game hunts*: Magnifying scopes on muzzleloaders, draw lock devices on bows and the use of crossbows.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

cfoodluvr said:


> I don't believe that this has been discussed. The news release on the dwr website said that the tag could only be transferred to a "non-licensed youth hunter". No license means no hunting anything else that year, and not putting in for any other tags. Seems like too big of a gamble in hopes that grandma or grandpa draws a tag. If this is the case, the kids that already hunt will not even be eligible to use the mentors tag.


Where are you seeing that? I don't see any such thing or insinuation. It does seem like a gamble.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Packout said:


> Hahaha-- not that easy! She has 3 grandkids who will want to be the shooter. Who will be her favorite? .


Pack out, you should conduct your own big game drawing with the family. It could be fun and would teach the kids about drawings and tags. That's what I plan to do. For the record, I like this for generals/antlerless and hate it for LE and OIL. ------SS


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## cfoodluvr (Feb 19, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> Where are you seeing that? I don't see any such thing or insinuation. It does seem like a gamble.


http://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/1320-board-approves-hunting-changes.html
"Hunting mentor program

A new program that should build bonds and memories between young hunters and their parents, stepparents, grandparents and legal guardians will start in Utah in 2014.

The Hunter Mentoring program allows a *non-licensed youth hunter *to accompany their parent, stepparent, grandparent or legal guardian into the field. Once an animal is found, the youth can take the animal and then tag it with the mentor's tag.

As soon as an animal is taken, the hunting season is over for both the mentor and the youth hunter."

Now I'm not sure (after reading the RAC notes) if it is both licensed and unlicensed. If so, my wife will be taking hunters safety very soon.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

cfoodluvr said:


> http://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/1320-board-approves-hunting-changes.html
> "Hunting mentor program
> 
> A new program that should build bonds and memories between young hunters and their parents, stepparents, grandparents and legal guardians will start in Utah in 2014.
> ...


I read that unlicensed for that tag, meaning he could get my deer tag, my dad's LE tag and still have his own General elk tag, but it certainly is not clear either way.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Is anyone else having flashbacks of "you have to pass it before you know what's in it"? Just wondering....


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

klbzdad said:


> You missed the part where everyone with some common sense about transplants and the culling of predators prior to transplants PUKED!


I was wondering why this was brought up.

What ended up happening with the last SFW transplants earlier this year? I havent seen anyone post results on this.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

klbzdad said:


> Is anyone else having flashbacks of "you have to pass it before you know what's in it"? Just wondering....


No, but I am having flashbacks of "it's for the children"!


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Bax* said:


> I was wondering why this was brought up.
> 
> What ended up happening with the last SFW transplants earlier this year? I havent seen anyone post results on this.


Go to the thread "You all have to believe it now" on page 4. (I haven't received an update for a couple of weeks so it keeps getting bumped back.) The updates begin on post 12.

Or go on Monster Muleys Mule Deer "Will it work?".

Lee


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## GutPile (Feb 26, 2013)

We ended up sealing the deal on this bull and fox yesterday. I'm going to miss the Sanpete extended archery


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Gute pile,
The Sanpete extended was voted to remain the same, It's not changing.

And, is that a LE bull? handycap extention? or Sanpete exstention?

Nice bul and fox either way.


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

Packout said:


> One more thought-- how are they defining "Legal Guardian". I signed a permission form for my son to go on Scout Camp last week. The permission transferred my guardianship to the scout master for the duration of the camp. Can a person transfer guardianship for the duration of the hunt to a non-family member?
> 
> Here is the legal definition of guardian- http://www.utcourts.gov/resources/glossary.htm
> guardian - A guardian has the authority to consent, on behalf of an infant, child or incompetent, to marriage, enlistment in the armed forces, or major medical, surgical, or psychiatric treatment.


Thanks for pointing this out Packout.

If legal guardian status can be relatively easily established between non-family members it opens the door to a world of possibilities.

I can open a hunting "mentor" brokerage service website that matches youth hunters with people who are willing to "mentor" them for a fee. For example, now if your child needs help with math you can go online and hire a math tutor. Soon, if your child needs help hunting a big horn sheep in Utah, you can go online and hire a hunting mentor.

If the "mentor" fees go high enough, which they should for LE and OIL hunts, I can recruit many non-hunters to apply for the possibility of hitting the new "legal Utah lottery $$$". In addition, I suspect that when push comes to shove there will be a lot of Grandparents that when faced with the decision of having to pick a single grandchild as their beloved favorite or providing "mentorship" to a stranger for thousands of dollars they will not be able to justify not selling the "mentorship".

This could get interesting after all.


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

martymcfly73 said:


> I'm only doing what the state allows me to do. Nothing wring with it. Perfectly legal.


There are a lot of things that the "state allows" that are "perfectly legal"; for example, abortion. Just because something is "perfectly legal" does not mean there is "nothing wrong with it".


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

oldTimer said:


> There are a lot of things that the "state allows" that are "perfectly legal"; for example, abortion. Just because something is "perfectly legal" does not mean there is "nothing wrong with it".


A more apt analogy would be something like whether state law allow a right turn at a red light after a complete stop... an arbitrary rule with few if any moral implications.


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

massmanute said:


> A more apt analogy would be something like whether state law allow a right turn at a red light after a complete stop... an arbitrary rule with few if any moral implications.


Creating a "special class" of individuals with special rights and privileges not extended to everyone is no different to you than making a right hand turn on a red light?

Please read the 14th amendment to the US constitution.

You must fully agree with a well known socialist/communist phrase: "We are all equal but some are more equal than others".

You have no problem with some (you consider inferior?) sportsman having to ride in the back of the UDWR big game drawing bus?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

oldTimer said:


> There are a lot of things that the "state allows" that are "perfectly legal"; for example, abortion. Just because something is "perfectly legal" does not mean there is "nothing wrong with it".


Ya that's the same...


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## rockroller (Dec 7, 2008)

Hmm, they used to call this party hunting, but now your not even required to get a licence to do it ! So if the kid gets his own license does he get to shoot his deer and grandma's too? I'll bet the officers will like having another rule to try and enforce. If getting a tag wasn't hard enough,now we got to compete with grandma and grandpa. Getting old enough now in a few more years I wont have to worry about this crap.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

rockroller said:


> Hmm, they used to call this party hunting, but now your not even required to get a licence to do it ! So if the kid gets his own license does he get to shoot his deer and grandma's too? I'll bet the officers will like having another rule to try and enforce. If getting a tag wasn't hard enough,now we got to compete with grandma and grandpa. Getting old enough now in a few more years I wont have to worry about this crap.


Just look at the article, it is all spelled out there and has been discussed here on numerous threads for over a month. It is very clear, a nonlicensed youth can have the tag transferred from a relative to where only the youth can fill the tag.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

oldTimer said:


> Thanks for pointing this out Packout.
> 
> I can open a hunting "mentor" brokerage service website that matches youth hunters with people who are willing to "mentor" them for a fee. For example, now if your child needs help with math you can go online and hire a math tutor. Soon, if your child needs help hunting a big horn sheep in Utah, you can go online and hire a hunting mentor.
> 
> ...


UMMM.
If you mean 'Broker' as Licenessed Utah outfitter....

And 'Mentor' as Licenessed Utah Guide .....

Utahs new licenessed outfitter/guide law falls into place here..


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Because we all know all outfitters and guides in Utah are upstanding examples of how hunting should be done? Again, whatever. The agenda is pretty clear but thanks for the clarification goofy.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I said it before, I'll say it again. It will slow down attrition in a huge way.

IF you are in the top tier of your LE or OIL points pool, congratulations! It wont effect you. If you are in anything other than the top tier this change probably added 5 years minimum onto your draw time, triple that if you are in the bottom 25%.

-DallanC


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> UMMM.
> If you mean 'Broker' as Licenessed Utah outfitter....
> 
> And 'Mentor' as Licenessed Utah Guide .....
> ...


If Grandpa and Grandma can "mentor" their grandchild without being a licensed Utah outfitter/guide then why do you feel a legal guardian would need to be a licensed outfitter/guide to "mentor" a youth under the exact same law?

I do not agree that Utah's licensed outfitter/guide law falls into place here.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Just curious... is there anything in the draw rules about people having to be "alive" to keep applying? I mean say Grandpa kicks the bucket... can the kids just keep on putting him in year after year even though he is dead, until eventually he draws and they get the tag?

This never was an issue before... but now... 


-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Dallan, at the minimum he would have to carry gpa's ashes with him.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Dallan, at the minimum he would have to carry gpa's ashes with him.


Does RealTree make urn camo?

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Does RealTree make urn camo?
> 
> -DallanC


If there is a need for one I am sure that they will start.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Look at all the ways this new law could help the economy. A camo urn......Brilliant!!-----SS


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## GutPile (Feb 26, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> Gute pile,
> The Sanpete extended was voted to remain the same, It's not changing.
> 
> And, is that a LE bull? handycap extention? or Sanpete exstention?
> ...


Are you sure? I must have read it wrong then.

I shot that bull on Saturday on the Sanpete Extended.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^ Possitive- You will still be able to hunt bulls on the SP extended.^^^^

And gutpile, You scored on that bull!!!!! -- NICE.


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## GutPile (Feb 26, 2013)

QUOTE=goofy elk;655922]^^^^^ Possitive- You will still be able to hunt bulls on the SP extended.^^^^

And gutpile, You scored on that bull!!!!! -- NICE.[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

Where does it say it will continue? I'm not trying to argue it, just curious where I got my facts mixed up.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Goofy's word is golden. No clarification needed.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

When the DNR has a question......they call Goofy. He is the most interesting man in Spanish Fork Canyon. ------SS


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

oldTimer said:


> Creating a "special class" of individuals with special rights and privileges not extended to everyone is no different to you than making a right hand turn on a red light?
> 
> Please read the 14th amendment to the US constitution.
> 
> ...


Let me put it in simpler terms. There is no similarity at all between an arbitrary rule that has no basis at all in any long standing moral code (the new regulation on mentoring) and a rule that goes against deeply held moral principles of a large portion of the population.

As to your accusation of "Socialism", and some people being more equal than others, and other such trash talk, you have no idea what you are talking about nor do you have any basis for making such absurd accusations.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

GutPile said:


> QUOTE=goofy elk;655922]^^^^^ Possitive- You will still be able to hunt bulls on the SP extended.^^^^


Thanks! 

Where does it say it will continue? I'm not trying to argue it, just curious where I got my facts mixed up.[/QUOTE]

It will all be avalible in the 2014 field regulation guide book avalible on
line and printed versions in two weeks I'm told ......


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

The minutes from the meeting have not yet been released, but Goofy is correct. The Sanpete extended archery bull elk hunt will continue next year. After all of the discussion and comments from board members about this issue at the meeting, I was quite surprised when the Wildlife Board actually passed it.


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