# Food For Thought



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I recently was contacted by someone who is wanting to make it so cross bows are legal during archery season. His dad is wanting to hunt during archery season but physically is unable to draw the legal weight and be able to connect on a critter. 

Here is my take, this is yet another issue where I have changed my view 180 degrees. Just 2-3 years ago I was adamantly against 'allowing' cross bows to be legal during archery seasons. There are many reasons I have changed my view, the biggest is that I see this as a GREAT way to grow the bow hunting population which would lead to more opportunities for ALL bow hunters. Many states allow cross bows during bow hunting seasons, Wyoming being one of them, and the success rates have NOT seen an increase due to cross bows being used. But, I see cross bows as a great way to introduce young hunters to the sport, hunters who are straddling the fence on whether or not to become a bow hunter, and retain hunters who physically are unable to be effective with 'traditional' bow hunting equipment. I personally can't see myself ever picking up a cross bow and heading into the woods. 

How many 12-14 year old kids can pull back 40+ lbs and be effective? How many of them could learn the 'art' of bow hunting with a cross bow and then graduate to a 'traditional' bow? How many seasoned hunters can pull back 40+ lbs and be effective? How many of them could extend their bow hunting years with a cross bow? 

I am interested in people's opinions, pros and cons.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't see anything wrong with it. I grew up in Wyoming and quite a few guys use them. I don't think it really gave them an unfair advantage.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

I do not like them for able bodied hunters. Agree with them when cleared by a Dr. to use them. Using a cross bow can be done with out any type of movement. The bow is already drawn and all you do is pull the trigger on a scoped weapon. 

If it were up to me they would be legal in the any weapon category type hunt, but off limit in the bow hunt. Half the hunt is getting close the animal and getting drawn back with out getting busted. If your looking for easier, use a muzzy or rifle. Just my opinion...


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm all for them as long as they can't pull back 40 lbs or they are disable hunters. But any body else I say no. getting close to the game is the fun part about the hunt.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I get the angst, but you have to still get close, and that is the primary limiting factor for bow hunters. Yes, the possibility of being detected while drawing is higher with a bow, but couldn't the SAME argument be made about a compound bow with 75-85% let-off versus a recurve/long bow? When I started bow hunting, 50% let-off was the max you could obtain, legally. A bow that reached 250 fps was EXTREMELY fast, now BOTH of these specs are archaic in the compound bow world. So, if we want to limit cross bows because they give hunters too big of an 'edge', why do we turn a blind eye on the fast/light/quiet/high let-off compound bows?


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## Dannyboy (Oct 27, 2010)

I though i already posted on this but i guess it disappeared. I don't mind the weapon it's self but i do not like the idea of having someone out in the brush with a already loaded weapon while I'm sneaking around. It's more of a safety issue for me. There is probably some statistics on them that say they are just as safe as any other weapon. But i have seen hunters shoot at anything that moves, and when I'm in all camo the last thing i want to think about is someone with a hair trigger in that same brush as me. I like knowing someone has to spot and pull back a heavy bow then shoot instead of just raise the thing and done. Just my 2 cents


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I have never thought of that before, Dannyboy. But, my initial thought is: if this were a valid issue I would think this would have been made evident in the numerous states that allow cross bows to be used during bow seasons.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

I too have changed my stance on this issue. For one, cross bows while accurate are more limited in range and energy that a compound. They shoot a much lighter arrow and therefore don't shoot or perform well out past 50-60 yards. It's always going to be about "how close" with archery tackle no matter what the speedbow freaks are saying. Crossbows just give that much more opportunity for otherwise sidelined hunters. Will I ever shoot one? HELL no! But that's just me. What about the little girl who wants to bow hunt with dad but can't pull back a legal weapon. A crossbow is the perfect answer. I say make them legal.



> I though i already posted on this but i guess it disappeared. I don't mind the weapon it's self but i do not like the idea of having someone out in the brush with a already loaded weapon while I'm sneaking around. It's more of a safety issue for me. There is probably some statistics on them that say they are just as safe as any other weapon. But i have seen hunters shoot at anything that moves, and when I'm in all camo the last thing i want to think about is someone with a hair trigger in that same brush as me. I like knowing someone has to spot and pull back a heavy bow then shoot instead of just raise the thing and done. Just my 2 cents


That's another misconception about crossbows. You don't have to walk around with an arrow on the string. You can have the bow ****ed, but only put an arrow on the string when you're ready to fire. Not all people will do this but I bet most will. Plus, all the crossbows nowadays have a very good safety system on em to prevent accidents by misfire. People walk around the woods with loaded guns all the time. How many folks do you ever hear about getting shot by accident? Not very many...


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

I've been working on a proposal and I want to get them legalized. I think there are several good reasons to do so.

First I have a dad who is an older gentleman. I hunt with him a lot. I've always wanted to take him bow hunting but he was never comfortable with a bow and now with health issues he cant shoot a bow anyway.

I have an awesome young daughter. She is fairly small in stature. She is also my hunting buddy. At 12 she shot her first deer last year. She wants to give the bow hunt a try but she still cant quite pull back the 40#'s 
I have several friends with big beefy 12 year olds who are already pulling 50#'s
I dont think its fair that just because they are bigger and stronger than her they should have oppertunities that she cant. 
Finally there is me. I just had my second shoulder surgery in a year. The doctor said I should be able to pull up to 50#'s or so but its probabally always going to hurt.
I dont qualify for the exemption but why shoot archery if its going to be painful.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

One other thought. They are already drawn back but you still have to move them to get on the animal. Horizontal limbs tend to stand out especially if you are moving and the animal is within 20-50 yards. Its still a very close in game.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

There are a lot of myths and misconceptions about what crossbows can do and what they cant. Here is a link to the North American Crossbow Federation. It has a presentation all about crossbows. Take a minute and look at it. 
It talks about capabilities, success rates and what's happened in other states that have recently legalized their use.

http://www.northamericancrossbowfederat ... 209-10.pdf


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Good link, Adam. 

Also, I notice a few mentioning getting close is the main objective of bow hunting. But, as a wise member of this forum pointed out to me in a PM a few minutes ago, the new compound bows are capable of killing big game at 100+ yards. I have shot many cross bows, and none of them would be effective at ranges anywhere close to 80 yards, let alone 100+ yards.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I don't have a problem with them. Never been around them to judge. I really don't see much difference than the arguments of Inline vs Traditional on the muzzy hunt or Trad vs Compound on the archery hunts now.

It's all good, I just say hunt!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

True Pro. A crossbow isn't nearly as effective a weapon as a compound. They aren't even as effective as a stick bow in the hands of someone who can shoot it. They just don't have the range or the KE due to their light arrow (bolt). You have to shoot a crossbow at 150+ pounds to get that little light arrow going fast enough to create enough energy and momentum to make a clean kill. I can get the same amount of penetration with my 45 pound stickbow and a heavy arrow and have almost the same effective range. It's the same premise as with steel shot. Steel is much lighter than lead so you have to soup up the load to make it an effective killing tool. But, just as with a crossbow, the steel loses it's down range energy very fast rendering it ineffective much past 40 yards. So, to me, as with you Pro, it makes no sense to snub crossbows as a more effective killing weapon and defend the modern compound based on those principles. (if that's ones argument against crossbows) Now the safety issues, that's just common sense. Some people got it, and some don't. Lets face it, there are folks out there who have ZERO business walking around with ANY weapon.


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## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> this as a GREAT way to grow the bow hunting population which would lead to more opportunities for ALL bow hunters.


In addition, it will lead to increasing the opportunity for ALL HUNTERS. Giving a higher percentage of tags to lower success rate hunts will keep our tag numbers as high as possible and still keep the buck to doe numbers and mature deer numbers up in order to be socially acceptable. If we're all about the hunt and not the kill, then lower success rate hunts are the key to keeping and maybe even getting back the opportunity we've been used to. Some might have to switch weapons(rifle to crossbow/archery or rifle to muzzy) and season dates, but it's better than not hunting at all. So, ya if allowing crossbows gets the archery tag split to 33% or more because of rifle hunter crossover then I'm all for it, but the success rate needs to stay low. I too had concerns about the safety but if Tex's info is correct then that somewhat alleviates my concern about that. A Bow Hunter Ethics and Safety course should required though.


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## lifeisgood (Aug 31, 2010)

I have no issue with crossbows being used for hunting. I dont want to use one , but i could see that my son (who plays tons of W.O.W.) would and then he might go out hunting with me. One problem is he would want to wear chain maille and full armor and there goes the element of surprise, but he would at least be outside and away from the video game.


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## rdoggsilva (Apr 6, 2011)

I am 62 soon to be 63 and have always used a recurve or long bow. As I get older I have had to drop my bow weight by 10#. But I am against the use of a crossbow during Archery season. I still do not consider compound a true primitive weapon ( that will get a lot of folks started ). I have shot both a compound and a crossbow and did not see much skill in using them, even though my boys use compounds. I know crossbows go a long way back in history, but I can not see there use in a archery hunting season. 
Now that being said I do agree that a disabled hunter that can not shoot a bow should be allowed to hunt with one. But not the general public. Call my old fashion, but that is my opinion.


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## Guest (May 18, 2011)

in my opinion, i dont have a problem with it. ive never hunted with them, but ive played around with them a little. while they are accurate, i think you are extremely limiting yourself while hunting with them. IMO they arent capable of the range a traditional compound bow has and the compound bow is just as, if not more accurate then a cross bow. i say make them legal.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I like the opportunity increase and with such minimal difference in success rates I see no major reason not to.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

There some good point put out there.Here a question for all.Ok if so if they let you hunt with them.Do you let people have a scope on them or do they hunt with a open sight on them ? Like I said if the kids or adult cant pull back the 40lbs then let them hunt with them.I'm fine with that.But I don't think you should be able to hunt with them if you can pull a bow back just fine.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I'd say at most a scope with 1x magnification.

Dustin, how would you determine if one can "pull 40 lbs. back just fine"? Do you go into the division with a bow and say "See, I can't pull this sucker back, now give me my crossbow permit"? To me, it's either legal to all, legal to those with disabilities or legal to none. Those are the three choices.

I've done a bit of looking on the subject and I don't see an issue with letting them be permissible on archery hunts. BUT, there are some stipulations for sure. There're just too many loop holes to jump through if it isn't thoroughly thought out and defined.

No magnification, bolt/projectile length/weight etc.

This is obviously not indicative of crossbows, but my first thought is that there are a few things about this "bow" that would need to be restricted. What about everyone else? Utah has certain restrictions on archery equip. No built in range finders, sight magnification, arrow grain wt. BH size. Any reason why the same couldn't be enforced for a crossbow?


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> I'd say at most a scope with 1x magnification.
> 
> Dustin, how would you determine if one can "pull 40 lbs. back just fine"? Do you go into the division with a bow and say "See, I can't pull this sucker back, now give me my crossbow permit"? To me, it's either legal to all, legal to those with disabilities or legal to none. Those are the three choices.


Well how do they do it now ? If you have to take a couple test to show it then fine. If they make them legal well I know one guy or two that might buy and hunt with them. I know I wont.In tell I cant pull a bow back any more.If my wife wanted to hunt with one then I would buy her one.I wont look at any one different if they hunt with one.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

I would defenatly allow for those with disabilities and maybe legal for 16 and under. Or like you say Tree legal for all. I just dont see the big issue here unless they develop a cross bow to shoot accurate at 100 plus yards.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Here is some interesting information (obviously biased as it is coming from the North American Crossbow Federation), but still food for though!

http://www.northamericancrossbowfederat ... EX9t8a3+nn

(I hope the link works).


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

JuddCT said:


> Here is some interesting information (obviously biased as it is coming from the North American Crossbow Federation), but still food for though!
> 
> http://www.northamericancrossbowfederat ... EX9t8a3+nn
> 
> (I hope the link works).


the link dont work


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Try this:
http://www.northamericancrossbowfederation.com/infoEdu.php

Then click on the "Fundamentals of Crossbow Dynamics" link (bottom right)


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

The PSE TAC crossbow shoots a 425 grain bolt @ 400 fps. That has just a 'little' more killing power than Tex's recurve I think :O•-: 

The trajectory is going to be a little flatter as well

It uses an AR15 lower receiver, with a customer trigger that would be a killing machine


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Let's assume Utah did allow crossbows to all archery tag holders. As of last year all the archery deer tags went in the draw almost even with the amount of people putting in for them. So if you allow crossbows I would conservatively assume the first year that 10-20% more people would put in for an archery tag (rifle guys who can hunt with a bow rifle now). And this would grow each year. You basically just pushed out that amount of regular archers and took away their opportunity and gave it to people who would regularly be hunting with a rifle. This would be awesome for riflemen, and would suck hind tit for true archers. 

You have a dynamic in Utah that you don't back east or in Wyoming--we have limited tags and limited game, the more inclusion you want to push the less opportunity for the establishment.

Back east where you have hundreds of thousands of deer that need controlling then yes I am all for crossbows, in Wyoming where you have a human pop of .5 mil it is not a big deal to include all types because you have the game capacity and opportunity. In Utah where we have game population and tag limits it will only take from Peter to pay Paul. Leave crossbows for other states or wait until the day comes that we need additional hunters--we don't--not if you want to hunt every year as a true archer. Any Utahn that is a regular archer should be against crossbows in Utah, it will only limit YOUR opportunity and give it to someone else.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Historically archer numbers have dictated tag allocations. Archers do not tax the resource nearly as much as rifle/muzzy guys. We could easily open up more archery opportunity if it was warranted. More archers > more support for archery > more tags allocated to archers.

Another option under current conditions would be to move a bunch of the lost any weapon tags to archery. Better to give them to archers than no one at all.....


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> The PSE TAC crossbow shoots a 425 grain bolt @ 400 fps. That has just a 'little' more killing power than Tex's recurve I think :O•-:
> 
> The trajectory is going to be a little flatter as well
> 
> It uses an AR15 lower receiver, with a customer trigger that would be a killing machine


I'd personally never support that kind of technology. As was said, there'd have to be parameters.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm not an archer, even though I did try the sport when I was 16 through 19 using a re curve bow I made in high school, but I say make them legal. Limit them to no more than 1X scope, open sights or peep. As for technology improving the weapon, I'd let that go wherever it goes and not limit the user. I don't see any difference between a suped up crossbow or a 50 caliber 1,000 yard elk killing rifle.
I would make the users take a course on crossbow handling and ethics and would not limit the use to anyone desiring to use it.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Historically archer numbers have dictated tag allocations. Archers do not tax the resource nearly as much as rifle/muzzy guys. We could easily open up more archery opportunity if it was warranted. More archers > more support for archery > more tags allocated to archers.
> 
> Another option under current conditions would be to move a bunch of the lost any weapon tags to archery. Better to give them to archers than no one at all.....


Let's keep in mind that we are in Utah and that we do have to operate within the current system. The Wildlife Board is not going to increase deer tags and I doubt they would consider moving more rifle tags to archery. Utahns love to blast bambi with high powered rifles. Even if they did move 1/3 of the total deer tags to archery those tags would still sell out before the hunt started with the current archery equip rules. This takes us right back to taking from one established group that does not need recruitment (because tags are selling out) and giving it to another. Why do we need to recruit when we are more than maxing out the resource right now? All that will do is limit opportunity and isn't that what UWC is against?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Who is to say we are maxing out the resource? That's part of the issue right now. These numbers, whether one thinks they are high or low, aren't based on much. They are magically pulled out of the air for the most part.

Maybe I misunderstood, but how would adding archery permits in lieu of lost rifle tags by cutting opportunity? 

Yes, UWC is against opportunity loss when there is no net gain, but that's not our mission. Personally, I'd quit hunting altogether if it were deemed appropriate to long term herd growth and increased opportunity for future generations.

I personally think the WB will be open to reallocating tags. In fact, the idea of moving lost tags to archery came from a board member.......


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

We are maxing the opportunity that is given to us by the wildlife board. This thread is about crossbows and my point is that with the current wildlife management system we have if you add more people who put in for archery because they can use a crossbow then this will limit opportunity for regular archers--supply/demand.

I also believe that the relocation of rifle tags to archery tags--although very remote--will still sell out of archery tags without including crossbows--so any inclusion of crossbows will limit the opportunity of regular archers--therefore I am against it. Its all about supply/demand.

If the supply were surplussed then I have no issue with crossbows--hence my stance with other states and their wildlife populations--that is not the case in Utah

When looking at this debate let's not get into tag increases or how crappy the wildlife board is or how horrible the system is--with the system we have you are limiting archer opportunity by bringing in the crossbow crowd. Can't argue with fact

Now if you are a rifle guy and want to hunt with a crossbow and increase your opportunity and take away from archer opportunities that is a logical stance--I will fight it but at least you are making sense


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Airborne,

I agree with you 100%. We currently max out the licenses in the current system. This year it will prove even more so with the 4000 permits cut by the Wildlife Board. 

We do not have a "problem" with not enough bow hunters in Utah. Plenty of rifle hunters have converted through the dedicated hunter program and though frustration from not being able to draw a rifle permit. Utah has proven time and time and time and time and time again that they not only do not support archery but use the word "unfair" when suggestions to increase archery tags have been presented before. Tag allocation in Utah is not about harvest numbers or what is best for wildlife or even maximizing a resource. It is about what is "fair". 

I do not now or probably ever will support the use of crossbows by all in Utah. If a kid wants to bow hunt or someone who has a disability wants to, let them. Otherwise I support using Bows on the Bow hunt. Cross guns can be used in the rifle hunt.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Airborne said:


> The PSE TAC crossbow shoots a 425 grain bolt @ 400 fps. That has just a 'little' more killing power than Tex's recurve I think :O•-:
> 
> The trajectory is going to be a little flatter as well
> 
> It uses an AR15 lower receiver, with a customer trigger that would be a killing machine


There is a few things you are omitting from the equation. that 425 gr bolt is how long? It will lose energy/speed really quick. I am positive a 400 gr arrow shot out of a compound bow at 300 fps will have more energy/speed at 80 yards than the above mentioned bolt.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

silentstalker said:


> I do not now or probably ever will support the use of crossbows by all in Utah. If a kid wants to bow hunt or someone who has a disability wants to, let them. Otherwise I support using Bows on the Bow hunt. Cross guns can be used in the rifle hunt.


I too once took such a rigid stance, then I got educated. You are a smart and usually reasonable guy, so I am surprised with your closed-minded approach to this. Answer me this: What advantages does a cross bow have over the top end compound bows? Keep in mind many shots are in excess of 50 yards now days. After you list the advantages, we can discuss the disadvantages, then we can see just how much of an edge a cross BOW would give someone during the bow hunting season. Thanks in advance. 8)


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## Califbowmen (Jul 1, 2008)

I would allow hunters 17 or younger and anyone with a physical disablity that prohibits them from shooting a bow to use a crossbow.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

o-||


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Bart,

I don't consider it closed minded, Maybe I am?? I have yet to hear of a valid NEED for the crossbow in the general bow hunt for all hunters. As I said, if a kid under 16 needs it or a person with a Dr.s note, I am on board. 

To answer your question, I do not believe the crossbow has ANY advantage over a normal compound bow other than what I said before. The lack of movement while drawing. 

To me, the bow hunt is about getting in close, and drawing on an animal without being seen. With a crossbow, a person can draw the bow, load a bolt, lean it across shooting sticks and shoot with a dead rest and little to NO movement. How about the element of holding the bow at full draw when that bull or buck steps right behind a tree and offers you no shot. With a crossbow you can aim and wait. With a bow you get tired and have to let down. These are all advantages that a crossbow offers that a bow can not. 

That is NOT bow hunting in my mind. I am an old school bow hunter and that is truly where my allegiance lies. I feel like I am fairly educated on the topic. I just happen to have a differing opinion than most of you??

Is this desire to add the crossbow about recruitment? More tags? What is the desired result? 

Do you really think they are going to give bow hunters more of the tag Pie? As I stated earlier in my 2nd post, I don't think there is a chance we will get more tags!? I see NO benefit to adding them in to the hunt as it is right now? 

I will open my mind a bit, Tell my why we NEED crossbows?


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

My uncle hunts with a crossbow due to a shoulder injury he has. The one advantage he has over anyone in the hunting group is accuracy. As mentioned, the crossbow can be placed on a rest if one is available in the moment. I don't mind that one bit. I think accuracy makes for an ethical, clean kill. Make crossbows legal archery weapons. They surely don't hold a kinetic energy advantage for longer shots. The hunter has to get in just as close or closer if he wants any penetration because the bolts are so short.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

silentstalker said:


> That is NOT bow hunting in my mind. I am an old school bow hunter and that is truly where my allegiance lies. I feel like I am fairly educated on the topic. I just happen to have a differing opinion than most of you???


So do you hunt with a long bow and real arrowheads? Not to be fesicios but all weapons have made huge advancements over time. I think I even read where you can now have a laser range finder fixed to your bow if you want. Is that not bowhunting? Where is the line drawn without excluding some group or need?

Personally I think if the lost permits could be given to archery and we could also accommodate some of those guys who need to make the switch due to lost tags and the success rates are similar I'm okay with it. Any lost tags hurts us as hunters as a whole (even though we hardly ever unite as a whole ie archers/muzzy/rifle) and we should do anything we can to help each other out.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> We are maxing the opportunity that is given to us by the wildlife board. This thread is about crossbows and my point is that with the current wildlife management system we have if you add more people who put in for archery because they can use a crossbow then this will limit opportunity for regular archers--supply/demand.
> 
> I also believe that the relocation of rifle tags to archery tags--although very remote--will still sell out of archery tags without including crossbows--so any inclusion of crossbows will limit the opportunity of regular archers--therefore I am against it. Its all about supply/demand.
> 
> ...


Agreed, back to crossbows. I'm not trying to push the crossbow agenda, just throwing out items for conversation. Is there a crossbow crowd in Utah??? Would archers switch over? Rifle guys? Muzzy guys? Just getting a feel for what the interest would be.

Now, with what has been said so far and the information I have looked at in the past few weeks, I still don't see the cons outweighing the pros. But the conversation is obviously still ongoing.


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

I am with silentstalker on this one. I don't know about you guys but there are some nice animals I could have shot if I could have been at full draw at the right time. I don't know how many time I have let down a bow or wish I would have drawn back already. It really is the hardest part of bowhunting for me. Having a crossbow ready to go would be a great advantage. With all that being said I think it would be a great way to get young kids into hunting.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

north slope said:


> I am with silentstalker on this one. I don't know about you guys but there are some nice animals I could have shot if I could have been at full draw at the right time. I don't know how many time I have let down a bow or wish I would have drawn back already. It really is the hardest part of bowhunting for me. Having a crossbow ready to go would be a great advantage. With all that being said I think it would be a great way to get young kids into hunting.


Then why not make everyone use a long bow? :?

Silentstalker, as for why we 'NEED' crossbows, I can;t say that we do, but I can't say we 'NEED' compound bows either. Or mechanical broad heads, or range finders, or several other MODERN pieces of equipment.

As for recruitment, I am surprised at the defeatist mentality I have getting from folks. The reason we have such a high percentage of permits going to rifle/muzzle loader permits is that is where the bulk of the hunters reside. Other states have a higher percentage of bow hunters, and also have a higher percentage of permits going to bow hunters. Why not approach the Wildlife Board and try and convince them to open up OTC permits for youth bow hunters/over-65 bow hunters, while keeping the same number of general archery permits?

As for not being detected drawing back, this is a SMALL advantage, but as I have mentioned; compounds have every bit as big of an advantage over stick bows that have NO let-off, let alone 75+% let-off. So, why the angst over the advantage the crossbow has and not over the advantage the compound has? The primary limiting factor is still getting within range, and a compound bow shooter doesn't have to get as close as a crossbow or stick bow shooter, so the compound bow shooter actually has a distinct advantage over the crossbow shooter in the area where it matters most.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

There is already a provision in Utah to allow Crossbow use for people with disability that prevents them drawing a bow from what I understand. No need to go that direction - even though I would benefit from the sale of said items, I don't think it is a good idea at this time to add a crossbow season.


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

Califbowmen said:


> I would allow hunters 17 or younger and anyone with a physical disablity that prohibits them from shooting a bow to use a crossbow.


I agree with this philosophy and add seniors to the mix--youth, seniors, people with disabilities.

It seems to provide too much advantage for the average hunter--especially not having to sit there at full draw waiting for that bull to take one more step.

All that said, I think crossbows are cool and I wanted one sooooo bad when I was a kid.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

As for recruitment, I am surprised at the defeatist mentality I have getting from folks. The reason we have such a high percentage of permits going to rifle/muzzle loader permits is that is where the bulk of the hunters reside. Other states have a higher percentage of bow hunters, and also have a higher percentage of permits going to bow hunters. Why not approach the Wildlife Board and try and convince them to open up OTC permits for youth bow hunters/over-65 bow hunters, while keeping the same number of general archery permits?


To answer this question, #1 I have been a small part of trying a lot of things with the Wildlife Board. Good luck getting more permits for crossbows. I do think the WB would entertain more permits for youth and seniors (they already have), but NOT for crossbows. This state has PROVED time and again, that they do not support bows of any form.

As for not being detected drawing back, this is a SMALL advantage, but as I have mentioned; compounds have every bit as big of an advantage over stick bows that have NO let-off, let alone 75+% let-off. So, why the angst over the advantage the crossbow has and not over the advantage the compound has? The primary limiting factor is still getting within range, and a compound bow shooter doesn't have to get as close as a crossbow or stick bow shooter, so the compound bow shooter actually has a distinct advantage over the crossbow shooter in the area where it matters most.

I am afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Drawing back undetected and the ability to hold aim for an unlimited amount of time on a shooting stick/bi pod are not small advantages. They are *significant*.

In my mind these advantages of accuracy and the above mentioned are far too important. The cross bow is not a bow.

Let the kids and seniors have at them. Let ANYONE who has a medical condition use them too. Otherwise my opinion is No we don't need them. I am not saying I am right and your wrong, I am simply stating my beliefs.

If you want easier and more efficient pick up a muzzy or rifle. If you want to have a different type hunt, pick up a bow.

If you can't point to a need or reason to add them then why do it??


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Judd,

To answer your question, no, I hunt with a Compound bow, release and sights. I understand your point and somewhat agree. I do not support laser mounted rangefinders. We have reached a point where technology in all weapon types has really peaked. 

This is not about compound versus stick bow to me. Yeah the let off is different but in both cases you must typically rise from the ground during a stalk and draw either bow, hold it for as long as necessary and let go at the moment of truth. You can not rest your bow on a solid rest and squeeze the trigger when the time is right.

I would LOVE to see the lost tags go to archery. I have spent time in meetings and stood at both the RAC and WB meetings numerous times begging, pleading, and spewing facts as to why they DWR could benefit financially from more tags/per harvested animal, the herds could benefit with lower harvest rates, rifle hunters would have less crowding and less competition for permits, etc. 

Each and every time they say it is not fair to give more permits to the archers. It is sad to see as a passionate hunter. I want more for all but that is not going to happen. IF we could get 5-10,000 more archery tags to support the influx of crossbow hunters/rifle hunters who switch over to get to hunt then I would consider changing my stance. The odds of getting those permits are very, very slim IMO. 

How many guy's do you think would buy and hunt with crossbows? 200? 1000? 5000? More?


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Silent, I too understand where you are coming from and can tell that we both wish the lost tags could be re-allocated. But who is to say a crossbow is too much. Obviously my opinion is contingent on getting the lost tags added to include crossbows as I think this would help rifle guys get into archery hunting and possibly move over to more traditional stuff. Ultimately, I think it is another rout side the box idea where there is probably some middle ground to help save opportunity.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

I agree with a lot of what your saying. I happen to think we should go for the permits for youth and seniors. We got 1500 already for the youth. Could we get more? Probably, Hopefully. Especially if we are on target to cut another 7000+ next year. I for one would hope we go for the permits 1st and if successful, look at topics like crossbows. 

Loss of opportunity is the real issue for me, My son may not get to hunt deer this year if not for the extra 1500 archery tags. He put in for NE region muzzy. Then after the application period they cut 4000 tags?? 

I am all for growing our sport. The next few years are going to be a roller coaster ride for all of us I am afraid.


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## rdoggsilva (Apr 6, 2011)

As I already stated I am almost 63, I still hunt with a 60# recurve. I still do not believe I need special treatment, even as I get older. I know someday I may have to hunt with a 40# recurve, not a crossbow. I started out teaching all five of my kids, three girls and two boys, shooting bows at 8 old, by the time they were 12 they could and did handle a 40# bow. So I do not see why a young person between 12 and 16 can not shot a 40# bow, be it a stick bow or compound. All a crossbow will do is make it easier to use. No high skill just point and shot, just like a rifle. No the use of a crossbow should be allowed for the disabled, not for health folks that maybe to lazy to learn to use a bow.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

A few thoughts.

1. Can you not shoot a heavier arrow and broadhead to get more range from a crossbow?

2. Don't archery tags already sell out? Why encourage more into it? 

3. When I was 14 and started archery hunting I bet I didn't weigh 110lbs soaking wet. I was still able to draw more than 40#. Drawing a bow is not purely a brute strength thing. Proper technique and practice is the ticket. I have an aunt who might weigh 100lbs during wintertime and she can still easily pull her 40lb bow time and time again. It just requires practice and conditioning. 

I'm all for the notion of reducing harvest through increased archery hunting. And also increasing hunter opportunity at the same time. And support the use of crossbows for disabled individuals. But as for youth or anyone else I don't.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Cant the disabled folks already hunt with crossbows? I have a disabled friend in Kamas that hunt can hunt with a crossbow on the archery hunt.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

pheaz said:


> Cant the disabled folks already hunt with crossbows? I have a disabled friend in Kamas that hunt can hunt with a crossbow on the archery hunt.


Yes they can. They also can also use a draw lock device on a compound bow. Funny how some of the same people opposing crossbows were against the draw lock being allowed for disabled hunters when I pushed it through. In fact, it was shot down the first time I tried. I had to go through the archery equipment committee and have that committee recommend the change in order to get it passed........

Some of you know suave300. He hunts with a crossbow, and I have known him for several years. As far as I can recall he has killed ONE animal with his crossbow, a bull elk on the SW Desert unit 7-8 years ago. He killed a good bull, but he MISSED a much bigger bull. The biggest limiting factor for him is the SAME limiting factor ALL bow hunters must overcome, getting into range. This *"significant"* advantage is really NOT that significant until you get into range, and for the bulk of archers that is the *"significant"* limiting factor. I have bow hunted since 1983, and I can only think of a few instances where animals escaped me due to my movement of drawing. But, I can't count how many animals escaped me due to my inability to get within range. The data is on MY side, if this *"significant"* advantage were truly *"significant"*, the success rates would bear that out, and they do NOT!


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

I am all for allowing crossbows during the archery hunt...not all that big of a difference and it would decrease success overall and allow for more opportunity. I have no intention of using one myself, but I think anything that encourages more people to be out in the woods the better it will be for all of us in terms of awareness for wildlife conservation.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

stablebuck said:


> I am all for allowing crossbows during the archery hunt...not all that big of a difference and it would decrease success overall and allow for more opportunity. I have no intention of using one myself, but I think anything that encourages more people to be out in the woods the better it will be for all of us in terms of awareness for wildlife conservation.


I am dumbfounded!

How is it going to increase opportunity when we already have a limited number of archery tags that sell out in the draw!!??

Sure it will take the opportunity away from true archers and give it to people who are too young/old/weak/lazy to use a real bow. How is that fair to us archers?

Once you guys take over the wildlife board and increase the archery tags significantly enough that they do not sell out by the time the hunt rolls around then ya let's look at allowing them for youth and older folks.

Until that time comes it is crazy to say it will increase opportunity! More correctly it will take tags away from archers.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> Airborne said:
> 
> 
> > The PSE TAC crossbow shoots a 425 grain bolt @ 400 fps. That has just a 'little' more killing power than Tex's recurve I think :O•-:
> ...


Where is your proof Pro?

I stated facts, a new crossbow shoots 100fps faster than a new compound with the same grain arrow (425gr). A bolt is usually around 20" long, the average arrow is 27-28" long. So you are telling me that 7" of shaft length is going to rob an arrow of a 100fps speed advantage down range? HARD TO BELIEVE!!

The new crossbows have a large advantage over the new compounds in speed and trajectory. That link from the crossbow federation proves this!

Unless you come back with some empirical data you are talking out your fourth point of contact


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

Airborne said:


> stablebuck said:
> 
> 
> > I am dumbfounded!
> ...


because what pool do you think those people who pick up crossbows (for the most part) are going to come from??? They will come from the rifle pool. Less rifle hunters=more opportunity. That's the skinny of it.
In the end, the people who put in the work are the one's who harvest. It really doesn't matter what weapon you use. So you might as well make the sport as open as possible to everyone.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

You go off line for a day and things blow up.

I guess I'm one of those hunters you are talking about. I've spent more time than most shooting a bow. In the last 25 years I've chucked a lot of arrows.

After my second shoulder surgery it hurts to shoot. Doc says it will probabally always hurt to shoot much. But I'm not incapable of pulling back a bow. So the problem is now hunt archery with pain or so something else.

And how about kids? I have small girls. My 13yr old cant pull 40# yet. Whats your good reason for her not to be able to use one???


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Airborne, 

I'm glad that you went to the site to look around. But in all reality performance wise there really isnt much difference between crossbows and compounds. 

Not pulling back is an advantage. But getting a second shot is pretty much nil with a crossbow.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

The way I look at it is that archery including crossbows is less effective at killing deer. As archers we want better longer seasons. We feel that we should have these seasons becasue our weapons are less effective and harder to use.

I think the part missed by most on the anti band wagon is that in states that allow crossbows their success rate is NO DIFFERENT from other archery methods. If there is some magical advantage that crossbows give it hasnt proven out in any of the other State that allows them.

It also gives others the oppertunity to try archery. Archers are the minority in Utah's hunting. Including others is a good thing not something that we should stay away from.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

My two penny's on the issue FWIW.

Guns belong in gun seasons.

Smokepoles belong in Muzz seasons.

Bows belong in archery seasons.

If you wish to use a crossbow without having a COR
lobby the RACs and Wildlife Board for your own tag allocations and season dates.

Why does everybody assume that Bows and Crossbows should be related and tied 
together?? Because it has a string and casts a projectile that resembles an arrow??
You could just as easily tie it to a rifle in that it has a stock, Safety and trigger.
If you wish to hunt with a crossbow go in and lobby for the items mentioned above 
and I'll be there to support your requests for your own season and tags to be allocated from the any weapon pool 100%


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Overall crossbows are more difficult to shoot than regular bows and arent as accurate when standing and shooting. Look at the crossbow scores for competitions. In Vagas they are always lower than the compounds.ir margin. 

Crossbows are bigger and heavier than compounds. There are a few very fast crossbows but these typically weigh a lot more some at around 10 lbs+ with accessories. 

You can shoot them accurately from a bipod or tripod. But sneaking in to under 40 yards and setting up a tripod w/o the animal running off scared would be a trick.

And for the archers who hike way back in....10#'s + just for a bow would me a monster to pack.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gly3bafU ... re=related


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Pro your killing me here. Your side is always right and the opposing side is always wrong. Crossbows do not need to or belong in the bow hunt. Twist it how ever you might.

I know you were a wrestler, so lets talk sports. Should a girl be able to wrestle boys in High School wrestling? Same moves, same weight classes, full speed. No taking it easy on her type deal. The unpopular and non politically correct answer is no. I feel like they should not. There is no need for it and you will not change my opinion on the subject no matter how you twist an angle. 

Crossbows are not bows. They are different in many ways. They have advantages that outweigh anything you bring up IMO. 

You guy's are talking opportunity as if we are losing it by not allowing them. We will LOSE opportunity if we allow them. People will convert and bow hunters will miss out on opportunity by not drawing even more of the tags. 

I really have not much more I can add. Good luck if you wish to try. I for 1 vote no.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNmkP2yn ... re=related

A Rolaid at 50 yards??

405 fps??

Like I said why do we automatically tie crossguns to archery equipment


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Wiley,
First of all I respect you and your opinion. I've been waiting for someone to throw up that clip. There are a few things I wanted to point out.

1. He is a pro shooter he knows how to tune and make a crossbow shoot.

2. He is using a 3 X 9 scope which WE DONT WANT ALLOWED IN UTAH. 1X only

3. He is shooting from a bipod.

4. The PSE he is shooting isnt recomended for hunting for a lot of reasons.
a. it weighs 12 lbs
b. costs about $1600 as shown only shoots special bolts that are about $90 each.
c. It is 44 inches long and front heavy. It is too long to be shot from most available hunting blinds.
d. It has to be shot from bipods
e. ITS 12lbs by itsself

This is a video that has been thrown all over by Pope and Young on the evils of crossbows. The fact of the matter is that this isnt how the majority of crossbows perform.
Crossbows have very short powerstrokes. They have to have this to be light enough to carry and use. PSE claimed that with this crossbow they wanted something that could also have a military application. I don’t know how that turned out.

If you look on archery talk under crossbows you'd be hard pressed to find many at all that use this type of crossbow for hunting.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Yes a rolaid at 50 yards with a SCOPE, from a BENCH with a BIPOD. Without the scope I dont think he could even see it. NO ONE has recomended that scopes be allowed to hunt with. I have lots of friends who wont shoot their arrows from their BOWS at the same target for fear of hitting their arrows. If they were shooting with that same type of SCOPE I'll bet they could hit the same

Are you actually saying that a PRO shooting a bow with a scope couldnt do the same???


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Now what I am saying is that I could walk in to his set up and within 5 shots be doing the same type of shooting. Just like everybody else on this board could. Just like anybody on this board could do with any of your buddies hunting rifles.

Keep it with the any weapon / rifle crowd and you get my vote


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Silentstalker,
*I'll start off by saying I respect your opinion. But you just made an interesting point. With girls and guys wrestling.
I also liked Wiley’s point.
There are currently three weapons seasons for hunting in Utah. Guns, ML and Archery. The breakup of these seasons comes more from their success rates rather than their “coolness “factor. The fact of the matter is that crossbows are no more successful than other archery equipment. The arguments that they are these killing machines hasn’t proved through in any of the states that allow them.
My profession is Human Resources. If you break up the weapons by any other manners than success rates you are going to get into trouble.
The statement about girls wrestling with boys is a great analogy. Bow hunting under current regulations is discriminatory. You may not like that word but it meets the definition. Anyone can shoot a gun or ML within reason. But Archery goes to the guys who are bigger, faster, stronger. 
I have a fantastic daughter who can’t pull back a bow…yet. She is small and she just cant get it. By your rules she isn’t good enough to hunt during archery season. A 40# minimum? That makes those who can only or barley pull back 40#’s at a huge disadvantage to those who can.
But it still comes down to harvest percentages. These percentages don’t lie and in all of the states that are allowing crossbows there isn’t any relevant difference between the two. So then it comes down to “not in our sandbox”. There is no valid reason not to allow them other than you don’t like them.
I still think they are a great way to include more hunters into archery. 


I agree


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

stablebuck said:


> Airborne said:
> 
> 
> > stablebuck said:
> ...


Exactly my point!!!--you are taking opportunity away from archers and giving it to rifle hunters!!

If the people who 'work hard' only get animals no matter what weapon you use then how come archery success is so much lower than rifle or muzzle loader success--in EVERY STATE

If we want to make the sport as open as possible then lets just allow rifles August to December state wide!!?? See how your herds manage in that environment

Craziness :shock:


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Adam,

I too have 2 daughters who are on the small side too. I was a pretty small young man myself. I got a bow at about 4 years old and have shot one ever since. At about 1 year prior to hunting I set to pulling my bow back multiple times each day and gradually worked up my poundage until I could pull 40. Ended up pulling 45 I think that 1st year. Point is, if kid wants to bow hunt, they can and will. If Dad wants them too, and they are not set on it themselves, 40 may be an obstacle? I think your daughter is definitely "good enough". I want all kids to hunt. Mine included. 

Not allowing a weapon due to its advantages is not discriminatory IMO. I have nothing against crossbows. I would not mind getting one myself to play around with. But for the reasons I have exhausted before, I do not like them or see a need for them in the archery season. 

Dead rest, bi pod, shooting sticks, they are MORE accurate and more efficient than a arm drawn and held bow. You can not dispute that. They will shoot as far as a compound can accurately shoot and that will not prohibit the "converters" from looking to push the limits beyond either. 

I do respect your opinion and understand where your coming from. However I see neither a need or reason to add them to the archery season. The success rates you all point to are not from states with our same dynamics. 

Let the kids and disabled hunters use them. Other than that my vote is leave it alone???


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Adamsoa

regardless about their effectiveness--this state has a set number of archery tags, when you include crossbows it will limit real archer opportunity. None of you pro crossbow types has answered that question--you will limit my opportunity by allowing crossbows. I get tired of repeating myself so much with the biggest reason NOT to allow them in this state in its current wildlife management situation.

Sorry your girl cannot pull back a bow but life is tough--this is not a communist state buddy, sorry but everyone should not have everything they want--that's Un-American! Let her get older, lift some weights and I am sure in a few years she could shoot a real bow. Or get your own season like was suggested


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

silentstalker said:


> Not allowing a weapon due to its advantages is not discriminatory IMO. I have nothing against crossbows. I would not mind getting one myself to play around with. But for the reasons I have exhausted before, I do not like them or see a need for them in the archery season.


That's where I see you being extremely inconsistent. A compound bow holds MORE advantages over a string bow than a crossbow holds over a compound. In fact, I contend a crossbow is at best a wash in regards to a compound. Why hold to a standard for what you don't like, but give an exemption for the weapon type YOU use?

In regards to your wrestling analogy: How do you equate weapons with gender? You are making a HUGE leap.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Airborne said:


> Sorry your girl cannot pull back a bow but life is tough--this is not a communist state buddy, sorry but everyone should not have everything they want--that's Un-American! Let her get older, lift some weights and I am sure in a few years she could shoot a real bow. Or get your own season like was suggested


This is one of the most troubling comments I have read from a 'sportsman' in a long time, if not ever. I pray that your view is in the minority, and that sportsmen don't advocate INTENTIONALLY shutting off opportunity based on physical prowess. :evil: This isn't about "everyone getting everything they want". No need for hyperbole, is there?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wileywapati said:


> Now what I am saying is that I could walk in to his set up and within 5 shots be doing the same type of shooting. Just like everybody else on this board could. Just like anybody on this board could do with any of your buddies hunting rifles.


Want to make a wager on this? I have shot crossbows before, have you? Hell, I doubt many on here could hit such a small target with a center-fire RIFLE. How about this competition: You with a crossbow versus someone like swbuckmaster with his Matthews. Actual hunting like situations, yardage 15-80 yards, how about it? Maybe get something setup with Humphries and the pop-up target range.........I am sure BOU could set this up.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> Airborne said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry your girl cannot pull back a bow but life is tough--this is not a communist state buddy, sorry but everyone should not have everything they want--that's Un-American! Let her get older, lift some weights and I am sure in a few years she could shoot a real bow. Or get your own season like was suggested
> ...


Seriously Pro--speaking the truth that hunting take physical ability is disturbing to you!? buddy we are miles apart. Don't take what I said out of context --use your brain--hunting is a physical sport, and the inability to pull back a legal bow has everything to do with being able to kill effectively. If you are too young and can't pull a bow back then go rifle hunting until you can--we have set aside youth tags for that. If you are physically disabled then by all means use a crossbow and that's great. There are opportunities for everyone, but to take away from real archer's opportunity when it is currently maxed out is wrong. You want to take from a group that can do a task and give it to those that are too young ; youth will pass and they can join the archery ranks in time; disabled people can already use a crossbow. I am not locking any out of our sport--talk about Hyperbole buddy


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Pro,

Obviously we differ on opinions here. No sense saying the same things over and over. Until I see a real need to add crossbows to an archery hunt, I will not go for it. No one is unable to hunt if they truly want to. 40#'s is not that much weight. It can be worked up to by anyone who truly wants to bow hunt.

Archery tags are selling at an all time high with a CAP on them. Why push to increase more competition for a VERY limited resource? I see no reason whatsoever to add them??

As for the boys/girls comment. It is not at all a stretch. In fact it is exactly what we are talking about here. Boys are different from girls. Bows are different from crossbows. 

Enjoyed the discussion, but for now, I am out. Carry on.


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## Broadside_Shot (Feb 22, 2010)

I will take on Swbuckmaster with a crossbow versus a his mathews 8) The funny thing is he might beat me, but it will be close. The sad thing is I may only have 50 shots through the crossbow and he will have practiced for a lifetime :O•-:


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Airborne,
Let me get this straight........You really, truly think that because you are bigger and stronger than some...women in particular you deserve a special hunt? Please tell me that you were kidding with that statement and not actually that ignorant.
You want me and other hunters in the state to support you in yourself proclaimed "boys club" to have a special season and special dates where only you and those like you get some of the best hunts?


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Jerry,

I think you are missing the point. The bow he shot was just like a target bow. It was from a bench with a large scope. It isnt something reasonable to hunt with.-----And the scope makes a HUGE difference. 

If you were out in the field even with a tripod walking around its a lot harder than you think. He'd smoke you.

Most guys with a gun cant arent as accurate as a bow offhand.


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## Broadside_Shot (Feb 22, 2010)

:^8^: :^8^:


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

adamsoa said:


> Airborne,
> Let me get this straight........You really, truly think that because you are bigger and stronger than some...women in particular you deserve a special hunt? Please tell me that you were kidding with that statement and not actually that ignorant.
> You want me and other hunters in the state to support you in yourself proclaimed "boys club" to have a special season and special dates where only you and those like you get some of the best hunts?


Some of you guys really get you panties in a knot over nothing--sheesh!

I simply want to keep archery season the way it is--WITH ARCHERS, boy am I the radical one!

I don't care who decides to hunt in archery season, as long as they follow the existing rules, it's not a boys club, its a season for archers, just like rifle season is for rifles and not machine guns and flame throwers

If you have trouble with reading comprehension then please don't post online

I will repeat what I said--I am sorry your daughter can't pull back a 40# bow--neither can my kids--but your daughter just like my kids can wait until they grow up and when they can pull back a 40# bow then they can hunt with a bow. I would not take away another archers opportunity just so that my kids (who aren't big enough to pull a bow back) can hunt the archery season with a crossbow--talk about selfish! Its not fair to the guy who can shoot a bow. If my kids want to hunt but can't pull a bow back then I will take them rifle hunting just like I would suggest you do--and the state even has tags for kids!

I think I have spent enough time in the insane asylum for today--have a good one


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> There are opportunities for everyone, but to take away from *real archer's opportunity* when it is currently maxed out is wrong. You want to take from a group that can do a task and give it to those that are too young ; youth will pass and they can join the archery ranks in time; disabled people can already use a crossbow. I am not locking any out of our sport--talk about Hyperbole buddy


What is *real archer's opportunity*? To you it might be something different than to someone else (obviously this is why we are voicing our *opinions* on an online forum). I'm sure Tex'o'bob might not consider you or anyone else a true archer if you are not using a longbow/recurve. Did compounds take away his archer opportunity when they were introduced? It is a matter of opinion, obviously, but times are changing.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne. How do you feel about the proposed wilderness designation in the SW desert?

As far as crossbows go, I think both sides can obviously come up with plenty of reasons why or why not. I personally don't see the need to refine and cater to lesser capabilities. Set a standard and if you don't meet the standard, find another way. I don't ski jump, pole vault or dance at a night club all night, I'm too old and probably am not physically capable.

BUT, I still don't see an issue as long as restrictions are in place to limit what types and performance of crossbows are allowed to be carried in the field. Hell, set up a committee and come up with a standard that is deemed to be less effective than the average compound. Would anyone have issue then? They'd be less appealing and pretty much the only people that would be using them would be the limited capability folks. I'm an archer, I shoot a stick bow and I wouldn't have an issue or feel like my opportunity was intruded on.

The PSE and other crossbows that you guys have been talking about are ridiculous and have no place in an archery season, but I believe there could be a compromise that would suit pro and opponents.

Airborne, I'm sure plenty of people could come up with a definition of "archer" that included a crossbow.

I think it comes down to philosophy and perspective. I don't think either is right or wrong, just different.

Forget everything I just said. The world is black and white %$# **** it!


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Back into the asylum I guess

JuddCT--I AM A TRADITIONAL ARCHER so there, I have killed oodles of game with my curve' send me your email address in a PM and I will prove it with pictures if you want. I will go so far as to claim that I could whoop ole Tex in a field round--or any of ya--come on up to Timp archery range on a Tuesday with your stick and we will see!  


Tree,

to repeat ad nauseum--crossbows in the archery season will take away from current archers (as defined in the guide book blah blah blah definition) opportunity. So you want to take away my opportunity--better go join SFW  

I don't know who is crazier around here--people who lack reading comprehension, people who assume before they know, or me for coming back! 

And to answer the question about wilderness--I have not read the proposal so I cannot comment. Although my general consensus is that wilderness is a good thing--closing illegal roads is a good thing--closing established roads/trails that are actively used and maintained is a bad thing. You guys probably think that is radical as well--flame away!


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

It's not a bow. Get your own seasons and tags and I will be there to help all I can.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

adamsoa said:


> I think you are missing the point. The bow he shot was just like a target bow. It was from a bench with a large scope. It isnt something reasonable to hunt with.-----And the scope makes a HUGE difference.
> 
> It may not be reasonable but there will be plenty try it. There will be some that try there hardiest to set these up. But with supply and demand they will have these bow/guns firing accurate out to 150 yards before you know it.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

If I were to use a crossbow I would hunt entirely different than I do today. Rather than stalk through the woods I would do more tree stand hunting or set up with a 100yd + shot over a draw waterhole or meadow. Or hunt from a blind. So packing around the 12lbs of equipment wouldn't be a deterrent. 

I really only am concerned with the displacement of a bow hunter by a crossbow user that otherwise would not put in for an archery hunt. I'm with wileywapati why not lobby for a couple 1000 "crossbow tags" taken from the muzzy or rifle pool? I could care less if they had the same season dates as archers. 

One should ask Finn if its common for a youth of hunting age to not be able to pull 40lbs if they put their minds to it and practice. Or woman for that matter. 

I cant resist to make this smart azz observation. Aren't crossbows for guys that are into blow guns Chinese stars throwing knifes and nunchucks? :mrgreen:


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> Back into the asylum I guess
> 
> JuddCT--I AM A TRADITIONAL ARCHER so there, I have killed oodles of game with my curve' send me your email address in a PM and I will prove it with pictures if you want. I will go so far as to claim that I could whoop ole Tex in a field round


I'd love to see the competition. No need to prove to me you are good with the traditional stuff, I believe you. I am just trying to show a different perspective. I'm assuming you include compounds due to the fact they still need to draw and hold? Is that the thought process? Just trying to understand. I understand your point about "losing traditional archer opportunity". But it all depends on your definition which appears to be different to everyone.
_(O)_


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

I wonder if the stickbow hunters cried, whined and fought when the new-fangled wheeled bows came along. Probably. 
I'm betting most are glad they allowed them.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I will go so far as to claim that I could whoop ole Tex in a field round


Eat yer Wheaties pilgrim!  I might have to dust off 'Ol Grey and take you up on yer challenge. 8)

I likes me a little friendly competition now and then. Shall we go a buck an arrow? :O•-:


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

JuddCT
I love compound bows! I love recurves! I love all bows that you pull back with your fingers! 

I hope you bring your 'A' game Mr Tex, I have been known to shoot 200 points on a field course, targets from 15ft to 80 yards. Being that you are a 'seasoned' archer I am sure you know what field archery is. Although with my target panic lately I think in the 180s is where I am currently at--still good enough to beat 90% of the stick flippers I have shot with in Utah

Like I said--5pm, Timp archers, Tuesday nights--you will have a ball!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Airborne said:


> I love compound bows! I love recurves! I love all bows that you pull back with your fingers!
> 
> I hope you bring your 'A' game Mr Tex, I have been known to shoot 200 points on a field course, targets from 15ft to 80 yards. Being that you are a 'seasoned' archer I am sure you know what field archery is. Although with my target panic lately I think in the 180s is where I am currently at--still good enough to beat 90% of the stick flippers I have shot with in Utah
> 
> Like I said--5pm, Timp archers, Tuesday nights--you will have a ball!


I don't know about this "field' stuff... I'm talkin 3-D, unknown yardages, up and down hill, obstructions, one arrow per target, you know, like hunting.  I'm no good at shooting yellow circles... But, shooting prowess is shooting prowess. I guess I could come play in your world. Do you dare to come play in my world? :O•-:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> Tree,
> 
> to repeat ad nauseum--crossbows in the archery season will take away from current archers (as defined in the guide book blah blah blah definition) opportunity.


You're right, we'z have a haard taim understandin yer supeerier jargon.

I heard you the first time. And again if your comprehension would permit, I'm not a proponent or opponent at this point, but you're painting a little box that you're requiring everything to fit inside, which is very convenient for your black and whiteness.

I'll learn, but it'll have to be pounded into my head. Maybe I'll just repeat it 50 times before bed each night: There's only one way, There's only one way, There's only one way. Never mind, I don't even have the patience to type it, much less say it. Or was it "my way"? I'm so confused......

I can't say I see your wilderness views as radical.........

It's so sad, archers have a season and tags and cross bow hunters are left out in the rain with no tags or season at all. On top of that they are discriminated against by archers. It's like a little kid waving a chicken nugget in the face of a bum outside Mcdonald's. So, so sad. Sounds like something for the ACLU to look into.

Since we don't like grey around here I'll clarify. The above was 92% sarcasm. Or was it 90%? This always happens. Better go fetch my methadone.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

longbow said:


> I wonder if the stickbow hunters cried, whined and fought when the new-fangled wheeled bows came along. Probably.
> I'm betting most are glad they allowed them.


I could be wrong, but I don't recall that it was necessary to change any regulations to allow compounds.

That said, I remember when the first wheels started showing up. The first guys to drag them out took a lot of abuse. Compounds bows were considered cheating, still are by many...made for people who can't cut it as serious bowhunters. My dad passed away before I ever touched a compound, but if he was around today to see what I'm shooting, he'd take it away from me and beat me black and blue with it.

Still, compounds and trad bows share a lot more similarities than differences. Utah regs don't distinguish between the two.

So the way I see it, a Xbow isn't a bow. It's a different weapon. So if it's going to be legal, it belongs in the "any legal weapon" hunt.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Why are we getting back on subject here? Lets get the Texican and Judd doing a shoot off. I say it should happen on a Friday night at Behive Wasatch bowhunters. The "pig shoot" (that has very few pigs if any) on a nice evening at the top of Parleys canyon would be a great spot. I get to be Tex's Caddy.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> Why are we getting back on subject here? Lets get the Texican and Judd doing a shoot off. I say it should happen on a Friday night at Behive Wasatch bowhunters. The "pig shoot" (that has very few pigs if any) on a nice evening at the top of Parleys canyon would be a great spot. I get to be Tex's Caddy.


That's nice of you Scott, but I'm only gonna need one arrow... 8)


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Getting back on topic...

While we could debate the lethality, ethics, and what have you in regards to crossbows, I think it all boils down to one issue. The biggest difference and the one thing that makes crossbows truly different is the fact that the bow can be carried around ****ed and locked. The "archer" doesn't have control of the string with his or her hand.. This is the only thing I see that should cause debate on the issue. All other points are moot. It is a "bow". They shoot a sharp projectile designed to cause death by hemorrhage, and they kill with about the same lethality give or take, as that of the compound or traditional bow.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Airborne said:
> 
> 
> > I love compound bows! I love recurves! I love all bows that you pull back with your fingers!
> ...


Hello Mr Tex,

Field archery was invented before 3Ds and it is set up to immitate bow hunting, it is up hill and downhill and the target faces are black and white. If you want to shoot 3ds we have a bunch of those at Timp as well--pick your poison partner!


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Airborne said:
> 
> 
> > Tree,
> ...


Tree, Tree, Tree
There you go painting me into a corner again
Please point out the post where I said to get rid of crossbows completely-never did, I am all for the crossbow crowd on a one condition-I don't want them to take away from archer opportunity. I also stated some facts concerning their lethality which you agreed with.
They can have their own season; they can share our season, whatever! As long as they can pull tags from the rifle pool I am fine with them. That doesn't sound discriminatory or 'black and white' does it.
Maybe now you understand why I hammer on your reading comprehension skills-because you don't read my posts or you fail to understand Basic English.
Later Bro


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

I don't really care what you guys do, Utah sucks. The problem in Utah is that we are split into two groups and the boards are never going to listen to two different groups, let alone one. Until we have one archery group nothing in the state will get done. Have at it boys I am going to go to Idaho and kill a bear, with my bow.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

north slope said:


> Have at it boys I am going to go to Idaho and kill a bear, *with my bow*.


 :roll:

o-||


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

.45 said:


> [quote="north slope":3o0zp4mw] Have at it boys I am going to go to Idaho and kill a bear, *with my bow*.


 :roll:

o-||[/quote:3o0zp4mw]

Ya, my thoughts exactly .45... He gets there with his bow, then he chickens out and grabs his gun when the bear actually shows up. WHO'S afraid of bears? :O---:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > Airborne said:
> ...


You must have failed to _comprehend_ the part where I said it was sarcasm. I'm pretty sure this is all comprised of easily understood nomenclature. :mrgreen:

As far as "lethality", that has been my point. I think there are restrictions that could be enacted that could keep the "lethality" below that of typical archery rates.

IMO, archery demand fluctuates all over the place. Some choose to bow hunt one year and not another. I know several people every year that do something different for the deer hunt. We haven't even discussed elk. Unlimited? Might be a good compromise to test theories and speculation.....

Lastly, I agree, more tags from wherever. Doesn't matter to me if it's the rifle pool, more would be the goal. I think it's a chicken and egg thing. We're not gonna get more tags without proving the plausibility of an increase in demand, but they're not going to be proven to the powers that be and hunters unless they are given some kind of opportunity to fail or succeed.

PS, I deserved your response. Can't poke a feller in the ribs without the possibility of a crack in the head. _(O)_


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

+1 Tree,

The way things are today, the plan seems to be let’s cut more tags from everyone. None of the groups seem to get along. It’s a three way fight between the rifle, muzzy guys and the archers for the piece of the tag pie. 
I would rather have more guys hunting the less successful methods. 
Seems like the way a lot of guys feel is I WANT TO MAKE SURE I GET MINE AND I'M GOING TO DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO PROTECT IT or the SEIGE MENTALITY.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not archery is the least popular of the hunts. I hear (and have said so myself) that we should be more fair in the allotment of tags. I thought it should be 33% for each of these weapons. In a perfect world it might work.
I have tons of rifle/ml friends who are vocal in their opinions about archers. They consider archers to be elitists. They don’t think it’s fair that we have longer seasons---especially for LE hunts. They don’t think it’s fair that we have the earlier seasons and extended seasons either.

And guess what???? There are a heck of a lot more of them than there are of us. Most of them DONT WANT to pick up a bow---they are pretty direct in their feelings about that. It’s neither familiar nor something that they want to do.
My kids are way more involved in school and after school than I ever was. Several guys posting this have mentioned their kids have the same issues.
Time is an issue to them and they don’t have as much time as it seems like I used to practice. 
I have one friend I work with who never has much time at all. He is a rifle ML guy but he mentioned he missed the archery hunt but he just didn’t have enough time anymore to practice as much as he felt he needs too. He told me he would love to go out again and try with a crossbow.
I know the purist guys are now getting ready to type that if it’s really important to them they will make the time to practice. But this isn’t the point.

The only way that the archery hunt will EVER GROW in tag numbers is to find a way to include other hunters or recruit them from the other weapons. 

You have to make trying archery hunting more palatable to other hunters make them want to give it a try.

Airborne, You have a ton of passion. But your siege mentality is a no win, period. Being afraid that others will want to come into the archery hunt and doing everything to defend "YOUR TAGS" no matter what is absolutely a NO WIN in the long run. 
Do you think the state is going to one day say “you know what, there aren’t that many archers and they aren’t all that inclusive…They deserve more tags.” 
Archers are a vocal minority but don’t forget they are very much the minority. I’ve already heard that there is talk in pushing the archery hunts down to a 10 day hunt. The other groups are pushing hard to take away some of the perks that THEY feel are unfair towards archers.
In the future its probably going to get worse.
I think that crossbows are a great way to recruit more hunters in to the archery hunt. I also think that the BEST WAY to get more tags is to show that you have a much higher desire for these tags. Make it so that more people want to be included in the archery hunt and you will have more of a voice at the table.
OR keep telling everyone that because you choose to hunt this way you are better than everyone else and you deserve more days and better seasons. It’s not working all that well right now and the future doesn’t look all that hot for archery on that course---But hey if there are only a few thousand 5 day archery tags at least you can feel good about the fact that you’re all using the right equipment.

This isnt the save all for archery but it is a way to include more hunters in this type of hunting and give them more of a voice.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Adamsoa, You know as well as I do that Utah has sold out ALL archery tags for several. The last couple of years via the bucks and bulls draw. The year there were tags remaining they went in under two hours.

We don't have a sales problem when it comes to our allotment of permits. To be perfectly blunt we don't need crossbows to grow in numbers. Within the next couple years as the noose gets tighter and season dates keep getting shorter our ranks will grow.

As I mentioned I am all for opportunity, who the hell am I to tell someone they can't hunt because I am more special or in some way more deserving or the deer are on "My Mountain.
Thats not my point here and will never be my intent.

My argument is pretty simple. A weapon that is capable of shooting a 6 inch group at 100 yards within a half hour of the shooter picking it up is not a bow. A weapon that casts a bolt or arrow that is not hand drawn and hand held is not a bow. A weapon that does not require the hunter to draw in the presence of game and execute the shot is not a bow.

Back to my argument in the debate, sell this to the any weapon crowd, they are your target audience any way. Join their seasons and pull from their tag numbers and I will be there with guns a blazin.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Wiley,

To be more of a devils advocate, I just dont see your numbers working out the way that you do. You have started selling out tags recently because guys are comming across for the longer hunts and better season dates.

I like archery---But you know as well as I do that there is a lot of grumbling among the rifle and ML guys about the percieved treatment of the archery crowd. I've also heard a bit about pushing for a 10 day LE season--and a shorter archery season. As things get tighter you know that they are going to be chomping down on archery. Its an easy target and there way more hunters in the other groups. The state seems to cater more to those with the most hunters. When the season dates get shorter how much more do you think you are going to grow? How much more of a presence do you think you will have?

Honest question--Do you think archery numbers will continue to grow if they lesson the season dates??


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

The argument about distance accuracy isn’t that great. The crossbow is in no way that accurate in the hands of anyone but a pro. I've taught firearms shooting and even shooting a gun that well is difficult. The crossbow is in no way more accurate than a gun. Most would be lucky to hit anywhere near a target at that distance. And the PSE crossbow is the least used for anything that I know of. 
You need to shoot a few crossbows before you make the argument. I have and I'm a fair shot with about anything I shoot--but they are hard to shoot well. Even with shooting sticks its a **** site harder than you'd think.

Before you get too tied up in the accuracy and distance deal go shoot one and then come back and tell me how accurate they are.

I think shotguns should be illegal because I've seen that guy from benelli do things with one that are unbelievable. He can make that gun stand up and sing.

Distance arguments are a bad thing. I could you could look at any FMP video and see shots that are 122-150 yards. Hell they brag about them. The new rage is 1 pin sights so that you can shoot farther than you should with a bow. Almost every outdoor 3 d shoot has targets way past what people should shoot. They say they its unethical to shoot that far but they do. 
Its not that I've never shot a bow, because I have. I've seen guys shoot way farther than they should. I'm sad to say that I've even done so myself once or twice--and missed. 

******One other question. We might not agree with crossbows on deer or elk but what about Turkeys, Bear, Cougars or once in a lifetime hunts? Do you have issues with them. In all of these species there isn’t an archery allotment. Turkeys can be shot with a bow or shotgun, bears and cougars are pretty much the same. How do you feel about crossbows being allowed for them??


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## kailey29us (May 26, 2011)

I was also completely against crossbows for several years. But a shoulder injury changed my mind. Although I can still shoot a bow I dont know for how many more years. I will switch to a crossbow when a bow is no longer an option.


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## Guest (May 31, 2011)

this is the best thread I have ever read.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Doesn't matter if its racing shopping carts at walmart, racing go carts or shooting bows vs crosbows ill put em in the wall when its all said and done. :lol:


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## JHas (Nov 21, 2007)

My wife and son will be trying a crossbow out in Wyoming this year (along with their bows). They both drew unit 24 bull tags and we figured this was a good time to try something new.

Have any of you tried hauling around one of the new crossbows? It's similar to trying to hold a half dead turkey by the neck. They are definitely not built for sneaking.


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