# Lead fragments in your deer burger?



## wyogoob

This is interesting:

https://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/nature/upload/LeadvsCopperBullets.mov

The burger CAT scans starting at 10:00 is pretty telling.

lead vs copper:

Pinnacles National Park photo

.


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## Critter

Very interesting. I knew that lead would show up in the gut pile which is to be expected but I was surprised at the amount that they found in the meat itself. 

For anyone else that watches the video, play it in full screen.


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## longbow

That's surprising! I had no idea it could be that bad.


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## utahgolf

pretty telling. With how good copper bullets are these days, I don't see any reason to shoot lead bullets.


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## wyogoob

longbow said:


> That's surprising! I had no idea it could be that bad.


Yeah I was really surprised too.

Another good one:
http://huntingwithnonlead.org/lead_in_meat.html

.


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## derekp1999

Did they mention the lead bullet they were making the comparison? (I don't dare turn up the volume while in church!!!)

If the comparison is against a bullet that is designed to fragment like that I would see that as a bit of an unfair comparison. It seems to me like a guy should know how his bullet is designed to perform... a guy shouldn't be surprised to find lead everywhere if he's shooting a bullet designed to function that way.


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## Critter

Any cup and core bullet will fragment, but to what extreme will depend on the bullets. They did mention Nosler Partitions which will loose a lot of the nose of the bullet while holding the bottom half together. 

The main thing is that any bullet made out of lead even if jacketed will shed lead particles no matter how well it is made.


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## Springville Shooter

I have been looking at this recently after some info that was posted on the TTSX, GMX, ETip thread. As a bullet sicko, I have saved all the recovered bullets that I find in animals. Even the bonded and Partition style bullets often lose 25-40% of their weight. In my case, that's 40-60 grains of lead particles unaccounted for. I'm not one to make knee-jerk decisions but I'm leaning toward going lead free. -----SS


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## DallanC

Stop shooting them in the ass and you will have less lead fragments in your meat.


-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter

DallanC said:


> Stop shooting them in the ass and you will have less lead fragments in your meat.
> 
> -DallanC


I don't usually make burger out of the rear quarters so I don't think that your advice will help much. Most of my burger is made from the trim which is likely to come from the places where I shoot deer.

Lead is toxic. So why ingest it and feed it to your family if there are viable options? That's what I'm considering.

Besides, my experience with copper hunting bullets has been spectacular and I can make them shoot really well.------SS


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## 3arabians

Springville Shooter said:


> I don't usually make burger out of the rear quarters so I don't think that your advice will help much. Most of my burger is made from the trim which is likely to come from the places where I shoot deer.
> 
> Lead is toxic. So why ingest it and feed it to your family if there are viable options? That's what I'm considering.
> 
> Besides, my experience with copper hunting bullets has been spectacular and I can make them shoot really well.------SS


I used the berger vld this year on my bull elk and buck harvest. While I was pleased with the performance and knock down power I have since bit into a fragmented bullet casing with lead in it and a another piece of lead out of the same elk roast. I'm wondering how much lead me and my family are ingesting without knowing. 

I too am looking at a solid copper alternative for next year.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## wyogoob

Springville Shooter said:


> I don't usually make burger out of the rear quarters so I don't think that your advice will help much. Most of my burger is made from the trim which is likely to come from the places where I shoot deer.
> 
> Lead is toxic. So why ingest it and feed it to your family if there are viable options? That's what I'm considering.
> 
> Besides, my experience with copper hunting bullets has been spectacular and I can make them shoot really well.------SS


Yeah I'm thinking of going all copper too....just as soon as I use up the 19,000,000,000 bullets I have in the basement.

I'm thinking of not using my teeth to put split shot on my fishing line anymore.

12 gauge Copper Solid:


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## Springville Shooter

Glad to see I'm not the only weirdo who saves mushroomed bullets in plastic baggies.:grin:------SS


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## Critter

Springville Shooter said:


> Glad to see I'm not the only weirdo who saves mushroomed bullets in plastic baggies.:grin:------SS


I wish that I could recover one from a animal. Of the 3 dozen or so animals that I have shot with Barnes bullets all have been pass through shots. That includes all of my African ones as well with shots up to 479 yards. Even the cup and core bullets that I have used over the years have resulted in complete pass through shots except for one spike buck that I shot back in 1979. He was facing me at around 100 yards and I recovered the bullet all the way back in the hind quarters. I didn't ruin any meat on him either.


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## Springville Shooter

I've gotten quite a few Partitions and Accubonds back over the years. I've gotten a handful of Barnes but not very many. Most recent treasure is a 250 SST from my muzzy buck. It now weighs 118 grains. The rest disappeared somewhere into the buck.-----SS


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## wyogoob

Springville Shooter said:


> Glad to see I'm not the only weirdo who saves mushroomed bullets in plastic baggies.:grin:------SS


I wish I would have started to save them in the 60s instead of the 80s.


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## wyogoob

.32 Remington on an antelope? Not a lot of guys using the .32 Remington for antelope hunting these days.


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## DallanC

I always look for bullets, I think they are cool to recover... but out of everything we've killed over the years, I've only ever recovered 3 bullets todate. All 3 are 240gr XTPs out of a muzzleloader from quartering away shots on deer. All were recovered after penetrating +30" and coming to a rest against the skin ahead of the front shoulder on opposite side. 

I've never recovered a 300gr XTP, partition or accubond.

As for lead, 90% of what we kill are shot through the vitals behind the shoulder. We dont keep rib meat usually, so any fragmentation is contained to the body cavity.

People been killing millions of big game animals for the past hundred years and eating them. If it were a serious health hazard we've have been mandated to switch over to lead free decades ago.

Now for birds, those always seem to have some pellets left in them... or do people shoot nontoxic shot for all upland game? I'd be more concerned with lead in a pheasant than lead in any big game critter.

-DallanC


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## wyogoob

derekp1999 said:


> Did they mention the lead bullet they were making the comparison? (I don't dare turn up the volume while in church!!!)
> 
> If the comparison is against a bullet that is designed to fragment like that I would see that as a bit of an unfair comparison. It seems to me like a guy should know how his bullet is designed to perform... a guy shouldn't be surprised to find lead everywhere if he's shooting a bullet designed to function that way.


Lead bullets in the first test that were shot into the gel blocks and water jugs were Nosler Accubond and Federal Fusion bonded projectiles.

Second lead vs copper comparison, again shot thru gel blocks and water jugs, were Remington Core-Lokt vs Barnes copper bullets.

They never said, don't even know, what type of bullets made fragments were in the hamburger C-T scans. They did say the packages of burger were randomly chosen. And they did say they verified in a lab that the fragments were lead. (It would be difficult, if not impossible, to tell the difference between lead and copper in a C-T scan or x-ray)

.


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## Karl

This is why the Europeans claim that all ammo should be solid copper.

I do not buy the argument however.

I can see where using underpowered rifles and underpowered cartridges might cause the problem however.

The problem may come back to the original decision to choose a proper or improper cartridge for a given quarry.

The problem seems to be worse today than it was 25 to 50 years ago.

Yuppie millennial hunters may be the ultimate problem.


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## Critter

Karl said:


> I can see where using underpowered rifles and underpowered cartridges might cause the problem however.
> 
> The problem may come back to the original decision to choose a proper or improper cartridge for a given quarry.
> 
> The problem seems to be worse today than it was 25 to 50 years ago.
> 
> Yuppie millennial hunters may be the ultimate problem.


On thing that causes bullets to fragment is using large magnum rifles shooting large lead core bullets which will fragment a lot more than a smaller rifle shooting bullets a lot slower.

Years ago you didn't have these super magnums that shoot those 200 grain bullets at over 3000 fps


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## Karl

Critter said:


> On thing that causes bullets to fragment is using large magnum rifles shooting large lead core bullets which will fragment a lot more than a smaller rifle shooting bullets a lot slower.
> 
> Years ago you didn't have these super magnums that shoot those 200 grain bullets at over 3000 fps


My bullets go in and they go out again.

They expand along the way.

Their exit holes are bigger.

They have not been fragmenting.

3000 fps is out of the question for a 200 grain bullet btw.

3000 fps is what happens when you shoot a 150 or less bullet out of a magnum rifle with a heavy propellant load in your cartridge.


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## johnnycake

Karl said:


> 3000 fps is out of the question for a 200 grain bullet btw.
> 
> 3000 fps is what happens when you shoot a 150 or less bullet out of a magnum rifle with a heavy propellant load in your cartridge.


False.

http://gundata.org/cartridge/65/.300-weatherby-magnum/

200 gr. weatherby ammo out of a .300 weatherby mag is zipping ~ 3060fps. 150 grs is over 3500 fps.


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## Karl

johnnycake said:


> False.
> 
> http://gundata.org/cartridge/65/.300-weatherby-magnum/
> 
> 200 gr. weatherby ammo out of a .300 weatherby mag is zipping ~ 3060fps. 150 grs is over 3500 fps.


Ok now find me data where a 200 grain bullet has fragmented.

I don't believe it.


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## Kevin D

Karl said:


> Ok now find me data where a 200 grain bullet has fragmented.
> 
> I don't believe it.


Whether a bullet fragments or not is more a function of its velocity than its initial weight. 200 grain bullets are less likely to fragment all things being equal because they are generally traveling at a slower speed. Are you trying to argue that a 150 grain bullet traveling at the same speed as a 200 grain bullet is likely to fragment but the 200 grain will not?? That's nuts.

Whether you realize it or not Karl, you are making the case for using underpowered rifles/cartridges if bullet weight retention is a concern. :shock:


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## willfish4food

Karl said:


> My bullets go in and they go out again.
> 
> They expand along the way.
> 
> Their exit holes are bigger.
> 
> They have not been fragmenting.


Unless you're taking x-rays of your meat, you're the same as any other hunter that was ignorant to the fragmentation that has been contaminating their meat. Show me some x-rays that prove your bullets are not fragmenting; otherwise, you're just citing anecdote which we all know is useless. :roll:



johnnycake said:


> Karl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3000 fps is out of the question for a 200 grain bullet btw.
> 
> 3000 fps is what happens when you shoot a 150 or less bullet out of a magnum rifle with a heavy propellant load in your cartridge.
> 
> 
> 
> False.
> 
> http://gundata.org/cartridge/65/.300-weatherby-magnum/
> 
> 200 gr. weatherby ammo out of a .300 weatherby mag is zipping ~ 3060fps. 150 grs is over 3500 fps.
Click to expand...

Just in case you don't believe Jonnycake or want information on the RUM, here's Nosler's data. They show three 200 grain loads over 3100 fps and they've even got some pushing a 210 grain over 3000 fps.

As to the actual lead issue at hand, I tend to agree that if it really was a problem, it would have manifest itself a lot sooner than now. When I first started hunting, I shot Winchester failsafes then XP3s to avoid lead contamination. When I started reloading, I switched to Partitions and Accubonds, and haven't really been too concerned.

If you like monolithics and can get them to shoot well, then why not switch. But, for me, I'll keep shooting what I like until the Government passes a law to save me from myself.


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## johnnycake

willfish4food said:


> Unless you're taking x-rays of your meat, you're the same as any other hunter that was ignorant to the fragmentation that has been contaminating their meat. Show me some x-rays that prove your bullets are not fragmenting; otherwise, you're just citing anecdote which we all know is useless. :roll:
> 
> Just in case you don't believe Jonnycake or want information on the RUM, here's Nosler's data. They show three 200 grain loads over 3100 fps and they've even got some pushing a 210 grain over 3000 fps.
> 
> As to the actual lead issue at hand, I tend to agree that if it really was a problem, it would have manifest itself a lot sooner than now. When I first started hunting, I shot Winchester failsafes then XP3s to avoid lead contamination. When I started reloading, I switched to Partitions and Accubonds, and haven't really been too concerned.
> 
> If you like monolithics and can get them to shoot well, then why not switch. But, for me, I'll keep shooting what I like until the Government passes a law to save me from myself.


Not to delve into the realm of ad hominem attacks, but the consumption of lead at a young age inhibits brain development and cognitive growth. Based on some the ridiculous assertions and plain stupid arguments we regularly have on these forums I think the problem might have already been manifested, but we were all too damaged to recognize it!

But having shot copper bullets out of my muzzleloader with great performance and similar costs that video convinced me that it is worth just switching over for everything. I might shoot out a barrel a bit quicker, but that seems a small risk to keep my kids safe.


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## Brookie

I don't think any of us has anything to worry about. You are just letting the environmentalist that want to save a condor scare you.


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## Critter

After watching a few condors sail around on the thermals for a afternoon I believe that I'll keep on using solid copper bullets if it helps them and other carrion eating birds such as eagles alive and prospering.


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## ZEKESMAN

*.32 remington*



wyogoob said:


> .32 Remington on an antelope? Not a lot of guys using the .32 Remington for antelope hunting these days.


Goob this is a fine open sight round


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## johnnycake

Brookie said:


> I don't think any of us has anything to worry about. You are just letting the environmentalist that want to save a condor scare you.


Heaven forbid hunters, who like to tout ourselves as the forefront in conservation, think about more than just the animal in our crosshairs.


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## Longgun

Karl said:


> My bullets go in and they go out again.
> 
> They expand along the way.
> 
> Their exit holes are bigger.
> 
> They have not been fragmenting.
> 
> *3000 fps is out of the question for a 200 grain bullet btw.*
> 
> 3000 fps is what happens when you shoot a 150 or less bullet out of a magnum rifle with a heavy propellant load in your cartridge.


30-378 Weatherby
30-26 Nosler


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## Idratherbehunting

Large exit wounds can be indicative of fragmentation, as the numerous fragments ripping through can greatly enlarge the exit wound. The only way to prove fragmentation is not occurring is by recovering the bullet and weighing it. 

With the quality performance obtained from all copper bullets, and their availability, I will probably continue my transition to lead free as well. Upland game would be the hardest for me to make that transition, as I think the high density shot on a grouse may be more than I want to spend. Turkey loads may also be a bit of a sticker shock.


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## DallanC

Who in the heck is making burger out of deer anyway? We never grind, everything goes to steaks, jerky or stew meat. Elk is what you want for burger.


-DallanC


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## Brookie

Johnnycake Mass extinction has been going on as long as this planet has been. I don't think lead was the problem. Habitat loss is far more concerning than fragmentation. Now if your worried about eating lead etc, process your animal right, shoot for the head etc., won't have to worry. also there are plenty of fish consumption warnings in Utah too.


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## Critter

I had a whole deer ground up except for the back straps, tenderloins, liver, and heart. It makes it a lot easier if you plan on making ground meat jerky, brats, or summer sausages out of the deer meat.


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## Brookie

I think we worry to much. Must be the off season of something we need something to argue about. Also, we shouldn't eat sugar, salt, drink soft drinks etc. True conservation would be to eat plants. We can feed way more people on Plants. Most Protein powders are made from soy. We don't need animal meat. It just taste better. Just stirring the pot.


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## DallanC

Brookie said:


> Johnnycake Mass extinction has been going on as long as this planet has been.


+1

My all time favorite George Carlin skit: 




-DallanC


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## Longgun

Idratherbehunting said:


> Large exit wounds can be indicative of fragmentation, as the numerous fragments ripping through can greatly enlarge the exit wound. The only way to prove fragmentation is not occurring is by recovering the bullet and weighing it.
> 
> With the quality performance obtained from all copper bullets, and their availability, I will probably continue my transition to lead free as well. Upland game would be the hardest for me to make that transition, as I think the high density shot on a grouse may be more than I want to spend. Turkey loads may also be a bit of a sticker shock.


Im sure there is a High Velocity steel offering that would do the trick?


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## DallanC

Too much of anything can be bad.

Copper toxicity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity

-DallanC


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## Idratherbehunting

Longgun said:


> Im sure there is a High Velocity steel offering that would do the trick?


Yeah, federal's blue box steal isn't too expensive. Maybe I'll grab some of that for the upland game at some point. I haven't done enough upland game (besides turkey) lately to really worry about it. I looked at buying some of the heavy shot turkey loads and decided lead was still just fine for me. I guess I have short arms, I can't seem to reach my wallet half the time. :grin:


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## Springville Shooter

Maybe we're all missing the point. It's probably those danged plastic tips that are going to kill us for sure. My current favorite bullet is the Nosler Accubond......in other words lead/plastics casserole. I'm doomed.-----SS


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## Critter

The plastic tips melt off of my Barnes TTSX bullets, Hornady proved it with Doppler radar.

I read about it on the internet so it must be true. You can also read all about it on their site. But then if you shoot the Hornady tipped bullets you just might get plastic into your system since their tips don't melt.


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## LostLouisianian

johnnycake said:


> Not to delve into the realm of ad hominem attacks, but the consumption of lead at a young age inhibits brain development and cognitive growth. Based on some the ridiculous assertions and plain stupid arguments we regularly have on these forums I think the problem might have already been manifested, but we were all too damaged to recognize it!
> 
> But having shot copper bullets out of my muzzleloader with great performance and similar costs that video convinced me that it is worth just switching over for everything. I might shoot out a barrel a bit quicker, but that seems a small risk to keep my kids safe.


Yeah it's a good thing we switched to non lead based paint, heck who would have put a man on the moon if we kept eating lead based paint chips...oh wait lead based paint was still around then. Ok my bad.


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## wyogoob

*lead has made me crazy*



LostLouisianian said:


> Yeah it's a good thing we switched to non lead based paint, heck who would have put a man on the moon if we kept eating lead based paint chips...oh wait lead based paint was still around then. Ok my bad.


Kinda timely. I just wrote up a cost estimate on a job that requires lead-based paint removal and abatement. Probably added 33% more to the job cost. The lead-based paint thingie created a lot of jobs in the service industry. Killed a few jobs in other industries.

Gawd, the stories I could tell about lead: solder, sinkers, cast bullets, lead-based lubricants, pouring and shaping babbit bearings, working stained glass, lead water pipes, downrigger cannonballs.....good grief for years toothpaste was in lead tubes!! It's no wonder I'm crazy.

This is my favorite thread.

.


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## wyogoob

Longgun said:


> 30-378 Weatherby
> 30-26 Nosler


30 Newton, 1916

.


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## wyogoob

*world's record with lead bullet*



ZEKESMAN said:


> Goob this is a fine open sight round


Thanks.

By all accounts I have the 2006 world's record for doe antelope shot with a 32 Remington using a cup n core projectile.

.


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## DallanC

wyogoob said:


> Gawd, the stories I could tell about lead: solder, sinkers, cast bullets, lead-based lubricants, pouring and shaping babbit bearings, working stained glass, lead water pipes, downrigger cannonballs.....good grief for years toothpaste was in lead tubes!! It's no wonder I'm crazy.
> .


Add all of that together and its probably less consumed lead than came out of automotive tailpipes.

How did we ever survive... no seat belts, no child seats, riding in back of trucks, no helmets, lead in everything, smoking on commercial airliners, no cares...

Many times I rode on top of the hay stacked in the back of the truck as we drove down the highway, slowing down so that I could lift the power lines high enough we could drive under.

/sigh I miss those days

-DallanC


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## colorcountrygunner

Have any of you guys ever shot an animal where you couldn't find an exit wound, but you never could find a bullet in the critter? :-?


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## derekp1999

colorcountrygunner said:


> Have any of you guys ever shot an animal where you couldn't find an exit wound, but you never could find a bullet in the critter? :-?


Yes, the doe antelope I shot this year in Wyoming. I shot her with a 154gr Hornady SST from a 7mm-08 at somewhere under 100 yards. The site of entry was softball sized with zero exit wound. I didn't take any time to necropsy or look for the bullet though.


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## Brookie

I believe the exit may have been the softball sized hole.


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## Springville Shooter

Brookie said:


> I believe the exit may have been the softball sized hole.


Nope, he probably meant entry. I've seen this a few times when bullets come apart on impact. Seen it personally with Ballistic tips, SST's, and A-Max bullets. Had a guide buddy experience the same thing when a client shot a big bull really close with a Berger this year.

I watched a friend shoot an antelope buck in the neck at 300 yards with a 162 Hornady A-Max. It blew a softball sized chunk out of the flesh on the entry side with nothing penetrating through to the exit side. Luckily, the blood vessels were shredded causing near instant death because the spine was not broken by the fragmented bullet.

That's the frustration with standard-constructed bullets. They work great until they don't. This is why you will hear endless testimonials about how great they work.....because they do.....most of the time.--------SS


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## moabxjeeper

How about we all just consolidate and shoot our animals in the neck? :yield:


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## DallanC

Springville Shooter said:


> I watched a friend shoot an antelope buck in the neck at 300 yards with a 162 Hornady A-Max. It blew a softball sized chunk out of the flesh on the entry side with nothing penetrating through to the exit side. Luckily, the blood vessels were shredded causing near instant death because the spine was not broken by the fragmented bullet.


Sorry I have a really really hard time believing that. A 162 grain bullet that cannot fully penetrate a antelope neck? Which is all of what 5" across? People shoot elk with those bullets!

I think the "entry" was more of a bullet passing through the edge of the neck on that side, with partial fragmentation blowing a crater. That I'll believe... but a 162gr amax not exiting an antelope neck, lol!

Got pictures of the hit? What was the angle of the antelope to the shooter?

-DallanC


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## DallanC

moabxjeeper said:


> How about we all just consolidate and shoot our animals in the neck? :yield:


Then packout wont be happy... not only with the crappy cape, but he loves neck roasts almost more than loin.

-DallanC


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## willfish4food

moabxjeeper said:


> How about we all just consolidate and shoot our animals in the neck? :yield:


But neck meat is so tasty!


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## longbow

Longgun said:


> 30-378 Weatherby
> 30-26 Nosler


Longgun, doesn't your 30-26 Nosler push 210gr bullets at 3200fps? Karlos says you're not.


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## Packout

Shoot them in the neck? Might as well shoot a 2 year old fat beef through the rib-eye. As was just mentioned-- the neck is the best part of the elk/deer/moose/antelope. Or at least it ties as the best meat on the critter. I just cooked up a neck roast off a 4 year old rutting buck-- as good as any deer I've ever eaten. 

As far as the lead in the meat, why not just shoot them through the ribs/lungs? And I do heavily trim the shot area. I bet I save more meat in the neck than I trim out though-- which puts me ahead of most guys who leave the necks on the mtn or in the cape. haha

I'll keep shooting Partitions until they are restricted.....


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## derekp1999

Brookie said:


> I believe the exit may have been the softball sized hole.


I meant what I said... she was facing south and broadside, I was facing east. I hit her right behind her shoulder on her passenger side.

I took pictures of the entry wound (http://utahbiggameodds.blogspot.com/2016/10/2016-wyoming-doefawn-pronghorn.html), didn't think to take pictures of the off side.


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## Springville Shooter

DallanC said:


> Sorry I have a really really hard time believing that. A 162 grain bullet that cannot fully penetrate a antelope neck? Which is all of what 5" across? People shoot elk with those bullets!
> 
> I think the "entry" was more of a bullet passing through the edge of the neck on that side, with partial fragmentation blowing a crater. That I'll believe... but a 162gr amax not exiting an antelope neck, lol!
> 
> Got pictures of the hit? What was the angle of the antelope to the shooter?
> 
> -DallanC


Shot was quartering slightly toward. Hit was pretty much center on the neck.

Believe whatever you want Dallan. I'm just telling it like I saw it. I've also seen the same bullets pass completely through a big wild hog. My point is that I consider standard constructed bullets to exhibit unreliable results, especially at higher velocities. I know for a fact that they can fragment on impact and make a very shallow wound....because I've seen it.--------SS


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## Longgun

longbow said:


> Longgun, doesn't your 30-26 Nosler push 210gr bullets at 3200fps? *Karlos* says you're not.


Affirmative bud! Im getting some pressure signs but its soft brass too so considering the bolt lift is just fine im calling it max for now for that particular loading...

*Note*: it wouldn't be the first time I thought the guy was full of crap either. :mrgreen: lol


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## DallanC

Springville Shooter said:


> Believe whatever you want Dallan. I'm just telling it like I saw it. I've also seen the same bullets pass completely through a big wild hog. My point is that I consider standard constructed bullets to exhibit unreliable results, especially at higher velocities. I know for a fact that they can fragment on impact and make a very shallow wound....because I've seen it.--------SS


I just think something else happened, that's all. Even if the entire 162 grain bullet grenaded, there should still be enough inertia to exit that thin neck. I've killed an awful lot of antelope over the years, and think their one of the most fragile big game animals on this continent.

What about the cup? Was it there in the neck? complete disintegration of the lead portion is possible with bullets, but there is usually always some remnant of the copper cup left around.

-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter

DallanC said:


> Sorry I have a really really hard time believing that. A 162 grain bullet that cannot fully penetrate a antelope neck? Which is all of what 5" across? People shoot elk with those bullets!
> 
> I think the "entry" was more of a bullet passing through the edge of the neck on that side, with partial fragmentation blowing a crater. That I'll believe... but a 162gr amax not exiting an antelope neck, lol!
> 
> Got pictures of the hit? What was the angle of the antelope to the shooter?
> 
> -DallanC


Here you go.....pictures are old, from a disposable camera, and not the best. 
Entry was on the left side.


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## wyogoob

Springville Shooter said:


> Here you go.....pictures are old, from a disposable camera, and not the best.
> Entry was on the left side.


Murderererer.

Iron sights?

.


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## Springville Shooter

Here's another angle of the entry wound.


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## Springville Shooter

Here's the side where the exit should be.


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## DallanC

Huh ok. 

I'm going to add Amax bullets to my list of hunting bullets to avoid.


-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter

wyogoob said:


> Murderererer. Iron sights?
> 
> .


Nope, Claro walnut stock with Rosewood inlay though.------SS


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## johnnycake

Springville Shooter said:


> Nope, Claro walnut stock with Rosewood inlay though.------SS


do ya have to lift yer pinky when you pull the trigger? ;-)


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## Longgun

DallanC said:


> Huh ok.
> 
> I'm going to add Amax bullets to my list of hunting bullets to avoid.
> 
> -DallanC


Truly avoid em... I have two experiences much like SS's that match nearly exactly what happened to that goat. On side hit (maybe a touch fwd of perfect but) they blew up on impact on two different mulies. I took the first one as a fluke, then it happened again... wont consider them ever again as a hunting bullet. Im hearing enough varying ELD-X reports to consider them the in same boat.


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## wyogoob

*SS has a woodie*



Springville Shooter said:


> Nope, Claro walnut stock with Rosewood inlay though.------SS


Ooh, atta boy.

.


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## kdog

The way I see it, as long as you are processing your own game and you shoot copper or what not you are safe from the lead concern,

but of you are sending your meet to a processor you may or may not be getting your own meat back, particulalry in the burger.

good thing is I generally use an arrow and do process my own game so i am thinking I will be ok...maybe...


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## wyogoob

*my girl wears a flat-brimmed hat*

I posted this in another thread where we were loving and hating Nosler Ballistic Tips.

My wife shot this antelope in the breast bone at very close range with .270 Ballistic Tips as the buck walked directly towards her:


She was a tough one back in those days, wore a flat-brimmed hat:


She's gonna kill me if she sees this.


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## moabxjeeper

Longgun said:


> Truly avoid em... I have two experiences much like SS's that match nearly exactly what happened to that goat. On side hit (maybe a touch fwd of perfect but) they blew up on impact on two different mulies. I took the first one as a fluke, then it happened again... wont consider them ever again as a hunting bullet. Im hearing enough varying ELD-X reports to consider them the in same boat.


This is copied and pasted from Hornady's website, found right under A-MAX bullets:

-These bullets are not recommended for hunting.

It's my understanding that these bullets were made as match-grade bullets for long range shooting. If you're hunting with Hornady bullets, go for Interlock or Interbond. Fantastic hunting bullets that have never let me down.


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## Springville Shooter

Anyway, the whole AMax thing breaks my heart because they shoot absolutely lights out in my STW, Dakota, and 280. I have tried the SST, Interlock, interbond,and a bunch of the new ELD jobbers. None hold a candle to the accuracy of the AMax and none shoot better than Nosler Accubonds in my guns so I kill most of my animals with 160 Accubonds. 

I was just out shooting the 280 today and shot two sub .5 MOA groups at 100 and a nice 1 MOA group at 600 in the wind wh the AMaxs. 

In response to Moab, Hornady has changed their tune because I spoke with a tech years ago and he told me that the AMax was absolutely suited for Medium sized big game including deer and antelope. He explained the projected performance to be similar to what Berger claims, a few inches of penetration then rapid expansion. Makes sense considering the similarity of their construction.--------SS


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## moabxjeeper

Springville Shooter said:


> In response to Moab, Hornady has changed their tune because I spoke with a tech years ago and he told me that the AMax was absolutely suited for Medium sized big game including deer and antelope. He explained the projected performance to be similar to what Berger claims, a few inches of penetration then rapid expansion. Makes sense considering the similarity of their construction.--------SS


It surprised me to see that as well on their website. I read about the construction of the bullet and it seemed to be suitable for hunting but apparently not if it's blowing holes through animals like that and ruining meat. I've never used A-MAX myself but have used other Hornady offerings in 7mm Rem Mag and 30-06. They work great in my guns.


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## waspocrew

I'm a fan of the Amax line as well - the 162's shoot great in my 7RM and I imagine the 5 boxes of 140 gr. oughta shoot well in my 6.5 Sherman if I ever get time to shoot. 

My wife shot a small muley buck with a 162 Amax - distance was roughly 90 yards from the 7 RM. She put it in the boiler room and it did its job. Vitals were completely destroyed.

I have about 1000 Amax bullets to get through before I make the switch to something different. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on deer after seeing what happened at relatively close range. Plenty of guys use them and they work just fine.


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## colorcountrygunner

Longgun said:


> Affirmative bud! Im getting some pressure signs but its soft brass too so considering the bolt lift is just fine im calling it max for now for that particular loading...
> 
> *Note*: it wouldn't be the first time I thought the guy was full of crap either. :mrgreen: lol


Karl is a gentleman and a scholar. How dare you guys insinuate otherwise?


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## 3arabians

colorcountrygunner said:


> Have any of you guys ever shot an animal where you couldn't find an exit wound, but you never could find a bullet in the critter? :-?


Huh? Most of them now that I think about it. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## DallanC

We've about worn this topic out. Maybe we need a new thread on Hair and Dirt in your burger?


-DallanC


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## Longgun

moabxjeeper said:


> This is copied and pasted from Hornady's website, found right under A-MAX bullets:
> 
> -These bullets are not recommended for hunting.
> 
> It's my understanding that these bullets were made as match-grade bullets for long range shooting. If you're hunting with Hornady bullets, go for Interlock or Interbond. Fantastic hunting bullets that have never let me down.


Sadly, i was aware of this at the time BUuuuuT i took a friends advise on them being just fine and rolled with it... Mistake...

Ballistic Tips (What i had been shooting before the A-Max) have been mentioned a few times over the last few months also. After a couple failures with those, and then the A-max, i switched it up to Barnes flat based 180's and never looked at anything else until the Accubonds popped up. They have been stellar for me so far, along with the long range version. Both shoot wonderfully out of any of my rifles and have always performed flawlessly. (Hope i didn't just jinx that track record!) I still have 20ish MRX's to play with but, 1- i dont necessarily need to punch through light armor plate, 2- they dont make them anymore so why the fuss. Im STOKED about burning up a few of these Hammers soon!


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## wyogoob

Great in-depth test comparing lead (Accubond, GameKing and VLD) and non-lead (Barnes, Nosler and Cutting Edge) projectiles here:
http://huntingwithnonlead.org/bullets_long_range.html

Now I see why my meat grinder blades are always dull.

.


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## wyogoob

Lead exposure in Wyoming's ravens and eagles:






I recognized Long Draw at the National Elk Refuge in the video.


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## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> Kinda timely. I just wrote up a cost estimate on a job that requires lead-based paint removal and abatement. Probably added 33% more to the job cost. The lead-based paint thingie created a lot of jobs in the service industry. Killed a few jobs in other industries.
> 
> Gawd, the stories I could tell about lead: solder, sinkers, cast bullets, lead-based lubricants, pouring and shaping babbit bearings, working stained glass, lead water pipes, downrigger cannonballs.....good grief for years toothpaste was in lead tubes!! It's no wonder I'm crazy.
> 
> This is my favorite thread.
> 
> .


Bumpity, bump, bump

.


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## Catherder

Awww, cripes. I don't have time to read through all of this. So does this mean that I have to give up my Core lokts for deer hunting? My .270 likes them, even though I've learned here that they have the BC of a "turd". ;-)


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## wyogoob

*what's a "BC"?*



Catherder said:


> Awww, cripes. I don't have time to read through all of this. So does this mean that I have to give up my Core lokts for deer hunting? My .270 likes them, even though I've learned here that they have the BC of a "turd". ;-)


Don't click on any of the links and you'll be fine.


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## Catherder

wyogoob said:


> Don't click on any of the links and you'll be fine.
> 
> what's a "BC"?


Got it. ;-)

BC is now called "before common era" previously known as "before Christ" when I was in school. As you may recall from yet another shooting thread, I have a bunch of old ammo. Almost all of it with lead tips. :?


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## Longgun

With the "on paper" performance i experienced with those hammer 181's the other day, i might well be able to thread one through the ear hole of a speedgoat @ 200yds one of these days. Bbbbuuut then again, i may want to switch to open sights and crimp my slugs but thats another story.


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## Kwalk3

Karl said:


> This is why the Europeans claim that all ammo should be solid copper.
> 
> I do not buy the argument however.
> 
> I can see where using underpowered rifles and underpowered cartridges might cause the problem however.
> 
> The problem may come back to the original decision to choose a proper or improper cartridge for a given quarry.
> 
> The problem seems to be worse today than it was 25 to 50 years ago.
> 
> Yuppie millennial hunters may be the ultimate problem.


I'll say it. I miss this kind of insight.


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## Longgun

Insightful, yet just about anything on this planet can be killed with a 22LR.


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## Springville Shooter

A bunch of really big steers, some broke-down rodeo bulls, and a whole bunch of derelict dairy cattle fell really nicely to my .22. Make an X between their ears and their eyes. 
Thunderdicks em every time.

Even back in the late 80's the old Dutch butcher I worked for made me use non-toxic .22 ammo. Just think of all the headcheese eaters that I saved from lead exposure.----SS


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## wyogoob

*I love head cheese*



wyogoob said:


> This is interesting:
> 
> https://www.nps.gov/pinn/learn/nature/upload/LeadvsCopperBullets.mov
> 
> The burger CAT scans starting at 10:00 is pretty telling.
> 
> lead vs copper:
> 
> Pinnacles National Park photo
> 
> .


Can everyone see this picture OK? It looks kinda dark on my screen.

Should I lighten it up some?

.


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## wyogoob

*So how 'bout that blue text?*

You can find hundreds, perhaps thousands, of scientific studies that prove 1) ingesting lead is bad for your health and 2) there's lead bullet fragments in packaged wild game meat.

Here's one such study. I didn't cherry-pick it either. I'll do that later.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669501/

about 35,000 words................................... blah, blah, blah....and then:
*
Discussion*

Our findings show that people risk exposure to bioavailable lead when they eat venison from deer killed with standard lead-based rifle bullets and processed under normal commercial procedures. Evidence includes a high proportion (80%) of deer showing at least one bullet fragment in one or more ground meat packages, a substantial frequency of contamination (32% of all ground meat packages), a majority (93%) of assayed fragments identified as lead, isotopic homogeneity of bullet lead with that found in the meat, and increased blood lead concentrations in swine fed fragment-containing venison. Considering that all the carcasses we brought to the processors contained fragments (15-409 fragments counted in radiographs), the high rate of removal evident in the ground meat implies meticulous care on the part of the processors to avoid contamination, but an apparent inability of 80% of them to do so entirely. We conclude that, in a majority of cases, one or more consumers of a hunter-killed, commercially-processed deer will consume bullet lead.

blah, blah, blah, blah, and then:

*Acknowledgments*

We thank P. and L. Widener, R. Berry, P. Jenny, B. Mutch, A. Montoya, P. Juergens, B. Oakleaf, R. Green, T. Hunt, P. Hughes, A. Siedenstrang, the Wyoming Game and Fish Department, the University of Idaho Analytical Sciences Laboratory-Holm Research Center, and The Peregrine Fund Research Library for help with this project. S. McGeehan and T. Case performed laboratory analyses for heavy metals. D. Lewis, G. Turner, G. Van Orden, and J. Luft provided care for the pigs and performed blood collection.

.


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## wyogoob

*And you wondered why I gave all my wild game sausage away.*

Here's an interesting story from Outdoor Life about lead fragments in deer:
http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles...ccessories-gear/2008/12/update-lead-your-meat

Outdoor Life isn't taking sides on this, they're just reporting the facts.

.


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## 7mm Reloaded

Brookie said:


> I think we worry to much. Must be the off season of something we need something to argue about. Also, we shouldn't eat sugar, salt, drink soft drinks etc. True conservation would be to eat plants. We can feed way more people on Plants. Most Protein powders are made from soy. We don't need animal meat. It just taste better. Just stirring the pot.


 True if you want to be thin, weak and gray skinned . kidding


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## Catherder

It certainly is food for thought regarding hunting loads, especially since I have a safe full of lead ammo, but what I'm really wondering about is exposure from how often I'm biting on lead split shot sinkers while fishing. 

Maybe my wife is correct in her assessment of my cognitive powers after all and now I know why. :der:


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## DallanC

Romans used lead as sweetener. Sure it brought down the entire civilization over time but it wasn't like a very small amount suddenly killed off people. It took a huge amount of consumption.

Honestly people are probably digesting more lead from spices than wild game: http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1971906,00.html

Myself, I'm more worried about heavy metals in all the trout I eat... and the split shot lead sinkers I bite (over a dozen last saturday alone... stupid fish kept breaking off my lines).

-DallanC


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## wyogoob

*lead in headcheese - now we're *&%4&%*



Springville Shooter said:


> A bunch of really big steers, some broke-down rodeo bulls, and a whole bunch of derelict dairy cattle fell really nicely to my .22. Make an X between their ears and their eyes.
> Thunderdicks em every time.
> 
> Even back in the late 80's the old Dutch butcher I worked for made me use non-toxic .22 ammo. Just think of all the headcheese eaters that I saved from lead exposure.----SS


Hey, how many headcheese eaters do you know?

.


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## DallanC

The more and more I look over these articles, and videos like the one goob posted, the more I think eastern whitetail hunters need to stop shooting animals in the butt.


-DallanC


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## willfish4food

Springville Shooter said:


> A bunch of really big steers, some broke-down rodeo bulls, and a whole bunch of derelict dairy cattle fell really nicely to my .22. Make an X between their ears and their eyes.
> Thunderdicks em every time.
> 
> Even back in the late 80's the old Dutch butcher I worked for made me use non-toxic .22 ammo. Just think of all the headcheese eaters that I saved from lead exposure.----SS


Not to be all Karl about this or anything, but I think you were under gunned. I've seen a documentary about it. Here's the youtube:


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## wyogoob

I'll squeeze a few more pages out of this and then I'm doin' one on Global Warming.

.


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## Catherder

wyogoob said:


> I'll squeeze a few more pages out of this and then I'm doin' one on Global Warming.
> 
> .


Didn't we just do a snappy 6 pager on that a few months ago? Aren't we overdue for old staples like SFW, stream access, or option 2, right?

And we need to talk more about TPL/ land grab......................errr maybe not.


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## Fishrmn

Anyone else curious why the Supreme Court has waited so long to announce a ruling on the two cases involving stream access?

I think they deliberately waited for the end of the legislative session. If they had issued a ruling the the politicians didn't like, they would've bent over backwards to write legislation to get things their way. Now, if they think they want to change things, they have to hold a special session. Any wagers?

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## utahgolf

There are some stubborn people in this world. Lead is bad for you and other animals/birds. I mean don't get me wrong, there were some pretty compelling scientific comments about biting down on lead split shot sinkers but surprisingly they didn't win me over.


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## wyogoob

*Tooth paste usta come in lead tubes*



Catherder said:


> Didn't we just do a snappy 6 pager on that a few months ago? Missed it. I was prolly sheep hunting then....maybe studying for the POUS election.
> 
> Aren't we overdue for old staples like SFW, stream access, or option 2, right? I s'pose. I was gonna do one on the earth being round. Hey, how 'bout the origin of species?
> 
> And we need to talk more about TPL/ land grab......................errr maybe not. I'd say "not", some of the Moderators will get all riled up.


see red


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## wyogoob

Fishrmn said:


> Anyone else curious why the Supreme Court has waited so long to announce a ruling on the two cases involving stream access?
> 
> I think they deliberately waited for the end of the legislative session. If they had issued a ruling the the politicians didn't like, they would've bent over backwards to write legislation to get things their way. Now, if they think they want to change things, they have to hold a special session. Any wagers?
> 
> ⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


If I bet you and lose can you put it on my tab?

.


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## wyogoob

*Berger in your burger*

_.................................The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2" to 3" before it starts to expand. After the initial expansion, the bullet will shed between 40% and 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organs). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area that will be 13" - 15" long.

.
_


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## 3arabians

wyogoob said:


> _.................................The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate 2" to 3" before it starts to expand. After the initial expansion, the bullet will shed between 40% and 85% of its weight as shrapnel into the surrounding tissue (internal organs). The combination between the shrapnel and the hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area that will be 13" - 15" long.
> 
> .
> _


Yup deadly round for sure. I used the 185 grains last year. Dropped my bull elk in its tracks at about 350 yards. When I started eating him I pulled a few of these out of my mouth though.


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## CPAjeff

Catherder said:


> Didn't we just do a snappy 6 pager on that a few months ago? Aren't we overdue for old staples like SFW, stream access, or option 2, right?
> 
> And we need to talk more about TPL/ land grab......................errr maybe not.


I think it's probably time for a few threads on mechanical or fixed broadheads, is it ethical to shoot over 400 yards at an animal with a rifle, who is truly the more pure hunter - archery folks or rifle folks, or everyone's favorite - should gambling, fireworks, and all the other stuff be allowed in Utah. ;-)


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## johnnycake

The only real, ethical hunters--as we all should know by now--are those that exclusively use roman candles won in a texas hold'em tourney after 4 fingers of scotch at no more than 311.34 furlongs distance from a medium sized deer and 228.23 cubits from a small elk.


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## Catherder

CPAjeff said:


> or everyone's favorite - should gambling, fireworks, and all the other stuff be allowed in Utah. ;-)


Aren't they already allowed here? Between the Northeastern Utah special economic district, (Evanston) and the Western one (Wendover) one can get all the booze, smokes, fireworks, lottery tickets, and gambling anyone would want.

top of page. (and still not sure what to do with my boxes of core-lokt rifle rounds.)


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## wyogoob

Everyone, back to work.

.


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## wyogoob

3arabians said:


> Yup deadly round for sure. I used the 185 grains last year. Dropped my bull elk in its tracks at about 350 yards. When I started eating him I pulled a few of these out of my mouth though.


Good shot, 350 yards is like a long ways.

Did you know I had a once-in-a-lifetime Wyoming Trophy Bighorn Sheep Ram tag last year? It's true, I'm not making this up. I practiced at 350 yards for a year. Let me tell ya, all the "little white rocks" 350 yards from me are now gone.

Uh...I oughtta finish my sheep hunt story.

.


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## 3arabians

wyogoob said:


> Good shot, 350 yards is like a long ways.
> 
> Did I tell ya I had a once-in-a-lifetime Wyoming Trophy Bighorn Sheep Ram tag last year? It's true, I'm not making this up. I practiced at 350 yards for a year. Let me tell ya, all the "little white rocks" 350 yards from me are now gone.
> 
> Uh...I oughtta finish my sheep hunt story.
> 
> .


Yes you should! In time, I'm sure you will.

I hope no body thought I was bragging about my 350 yard shot. I hate it when people do that! I was mostly just talking about the performance of the Berger VLD in relation to the amount of lead in my elk steaks.

But.....it (I) was pretty awesome!! :-|O|-::-|O|-::O_D:*(())*O*--


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