# "Peacfull Protest"



## taxidermist

I'm sure many of you saw the protest go CRAZY in SLC yesterday. How could you not with the media blowing up the networks? 


I'm all about the 1st amendment and voicing ones self. It's our right! But when do you draw the line? I get its a fine line between police violence towards citizens, and citizens intentionally breaking the law. 


When the luting began, I believe that law enforcement should have taken a more aggressive action and use what means they had to stop it and disperse the groups in the area. That is when the protest turned from "the right to congregate peacefully and protest" to becoming a criminal act. 


It's tuff enough for those businesses that were vandalized to recover from this pandemic were in. Now they have more to add to there plate. 


What a shame to see something like this go south in the Valley. Guess SLC isn't the sheltered place from the world as it once was many years ago.


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## Critter

I am all for peaceful protest, the the main word here is peaceful. 

Once that looting starts, banging on car hoods, blocking traffic, breaking windows someone needs to step in and make it stop. 

I actually believe that there are those that use these protest just as a way to start the looting and riots. I watched a clip on the news last night where they showed a Target store that was close to being wiped out by the looters, there was very little left on the shelves. Then there is a report from Dallas where some thugs broke into a store and the owner started shooting from inside the store. It didn't look like anyone outside was hurt but there were a couple of thugs inside that I didn't see make it outside. But I haven't heard anything on the news about it.


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## wyogoob

This is not my favorite thread. It's an issue important to everyone but if this turns into a political "Right against the Left" I'll lock it down.

Thanks.

Goob, Administrator of an *outdoor* forum.
.


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## Vanilla

The very nature of SLC has changed significantly the last 10-15 years. It is NOT the place it used to be.

I am not going to criticize police for not taking stronger actions against the protests when they started turning violent.. As bad as this sounds, property can be fixed or replaced, life can’t. If police match these actions with equal force, we’ve learned through experience that people die. Quick and decisive acts to save life is appropriate and necessary. Anything on top of that is a major catch 22. 

This whole situation sucks. Every single thing about it sucks. We just need to be better to each other. If we’d start talking WITH each other instead of AT each other, we’d make some headway. It’s been a long minute since we’ve been able to do that in this country.


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## Ray

My buddy was on duty last night, working the riot (notice I didn’t use the word protest) sent me a couple pics.


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## Jedidiah

Large children acting out. Would have been good to see tear gas and bean bags before that police cruiser was turned over and torched. It's nice though that we live in a state where 100+ cops show up in APCs and body armor, with SMGs and sniper rifles instead of helmets, batons and plexiglass shields. I don't know if they did at this one but they did at that riot by the Rio Grande station and that shut down fast.

Also the cop who did it is already charged with murder. How is rioting going to help due process?


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## Brettski7

Jedidiah said:


> Large children acting out. Would have been good to see tear gas and bean bags before that police cruiser was turned over and torched. It's nice though that we live in a state where 100+ cops show up in APCs and body armor, with SMGs and sniper rifles instead of helmets, batons and plexiglass shields. I don't know if they did at this one but they did at that riot by the Rio Grande station and that shut down fast.
> 
> Also the cop who did it is already charged with murder. How is rioting going to help due process?


It has nothing to do with due process lol. Was never the goal of these criminals. They dint actually care about what happened.

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## backcountry

I hope wherever you are and whatever you believe that ultimately your family and friends remain safe tonight and in the days to come.


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## Vanilla

This one struck a chord with me yesterday. I’m guilty of being critical of some of these other forms of peaceful protest. I probably need to check that and listen more than roll my eyes next time.


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## backcountry

That's a powerful meme. 

I don't know what to think about so many of these historical tensions boiling over. It's hard to admit that I've historically been the white moderate MLK Jr criticized from jail. Having never experienced systemic oppression I can't really understand what leads to these moments.


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## johnnycake

Vanilla said:


> This one struck a chord with me yesterday. I'm guilty of being critical of some of these other forms of peaceful protest. I probably need to check that and listen more than roll my eyes next time.


It wasn't that exact meme, but one in a similar vein that I saw the other day and it moved me the rethink my take on the riots. How many times can a large portion of society tell another portion to "shut up" "not here" "not like that" in response to their peaceful methods of protest without it erupting into violence? That old definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over expecting different results comes to mind.

Be kind, stay safe, and hopefully if your property is affected you've got good insurance.


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## backcountry

I had no clue it was the anniversary of the Tulsa Massacres. 99 years ago. To be honest I only learned about them earlier this year (binge watched the Watchmen earlier this week 😳 )


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## Brettski7

*"Peacfull Protest"*



johnnycake said:


> It wasn't that exact meme, but one in a similar vein that I saw the other day and it moved me the rethink my take on the riots. How many times can a large portion of society tell another portion to "shut up" "not here" "not like that" in response to their peaceful methods of protest without it erupting into violence? That old definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over expecting different results comes to mind.
> 
> Be kind, stay safe, and hopefully if your property is affected you've got good insurance.


I'm sorry there is no excuse for these riots and it's simply moronic to try and justify them (not saying you are). Pictures in that meme need context behind them. Yes it makes me think ok maybe some of the other protests aren't so ridiculous.

To be clear these rioters and looters have no care for what actually happened. They are criminals just looking for an excuse.

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## johnnycake

Brettski7 said:


> Pictures in that meme need context behind them. Yes it makes me think ok maybe some of the other protests aren't so ridiculous.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In other words, the level of the current rioting has caused you to rethink your prior positions that the prior peaceful protests weren't so ridiculous.

Sounds like it took violent protest and rioting to bring you (and me) to that realization.

And a fair number of our revered and celebrated American heroes thoroughly trounced the law and destroyed a large amount of valuable private property one night in Boston a few years back.


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## Brettski7

johnnycake said:


> In other words, the level of the current rioting has caused you to rethink your prior positions that the prior peaceful protests weren't so ridiculous.
> 
> Sounds like it took violent protest and rioting to bring you (and me) to that realization.
> 
> And a fair number of our revered and celebrated American heroes thoroughly trounced the law and destroyed a large amount of valuable private property one night in Boston a few years back.


Some. They were still ridiculous but I guess I'd rather have those than riots yes.

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## johnnycake

Brettski7 said:


> They were still ridiculous


And that to me sums up why there is rioting.


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## Brettski7

johnnycake said:


> And that to me sums up why there is rioting.


How so?

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## johnnycake

Until society accepts that peaceful protests aren't "ridiculous" why would anybody think that they can effect the change they are seeking through peaceful means?


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## Brettski7

*"Peacfull Protest"*



johnnycake said:


> Until society accepts that peaceful protests aren't "ridiculous" why would anybody think that they can effect the change they are seeking through peaceful means?


Don't misconstrue what I said. I don't believe peaceful protest are ridiculous. I believe warrantless and meaningless protest, protest for no reason are ridiculous. Untruthful protest are ridiculous. The meme posted has some examples of what I mean.

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## johnnycake

If that's what you have to tell yourself.


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## Brettski7

*"Peacfull Protest"*



johnnycake said:


> If that's what you have to tell yourself.


The truth.. well yes that is what I have to tell myself. Others should do the same more often and we might not be in this mess we are in today.

But I can see I'm wasting my time with you so have a good night.

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## taxidermist

I saw a report that it was a "possibility" that the individuals/groups that lashed out in a violent manner could have been from out of state, brought in by "someone" that had a major roll in the protest. Sad to see either way.


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## Vanilla

I don’t justify the riots at all. Saying a meme was poignant is not saying “yes, let’s burn the city down.”

But the conversation that has ensued is very good example of why the meme was poignant to me. We’ve got to quit telling black people how to feel about their history and their present. And if you keep telling them their reasons or means of peaceful protest are “ridiculous,” well, then what do you expect? For them to go sit in a corner quietly and “know their place?” This whole situation should be giving all of us a time for personal reflection on what we can do to effect change in our society. Change is needed. And I’m not just talking about George Floyd or riots either. If you can’t see that change is needed, then I submit you are part of the problem. Because this one is plain as day right in front of all of our faces. 

As Forest Gump would say, that’s all I’ve got to say about that.


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## Fowlmouth

___________


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## Ray

I get being upset, most everyone is But that doesn’t excuse the behavior, looting isn’t protesting, neither is murder, neither is vandalism. Three people dead, hundreds injured, innocent people’s livelihoods destroyed or looted away at a time when they were already struggling. Setting fire to homes with occupants still inside and blocking fire and rescue while a child is trapped isn’t going to get your point across, rather, it’ll set you back.


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## Ray

My two oldest boys are half black, I’ve seen the negative treatment first hand. One day, the oldest came home crying and started to ferociously scrub his hands, said kids were making fun of his skin and that he didn’t want to be tan anymore. Believe when I tell you I’ve never wanted to punch a 5 year old in the face more, but violence isn’t the way and that’s not how I’ve taught my boys to be.


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## backcountry

MLK was undoubtedly for non-violent direct action, as are most of the organized groups protesting. Sadly it only takes a few people throwing rocks into windows for things to change fast.

But make no mistake....MLK Jr was a law breaking rebel who saw the purpose in causing "tension". I think we often do a disservice to his legacy when we tame his narrative down. His non-violent direct action was rooted not just in a unique philosophy but also a political realism. That realism was not to increase violence upon minorities by giving justification to the racist police forces of the time. For clarity, that was because they already acted so violently without just cause. But MLK had no problem figuratively playing with fire, being an outside agitator and catalyzing tension for the world to see.

I had to delete an earlier response because it did a disservice to him. I often have to go back and read his Letter From A Birmingham Jail at moments like this. It helps me correct the way most of America has misconstrued his legacy, including myself.



> justice too long delayed is justice denied





> I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the ***** passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.


I have no doubt MLK Jr would be walking side by side in the cities protests. I have no doubt he'd be pleading for non-violent protest but I also know his wisdom went beyond expecting prudence from those realing from the injustice they've experienced



> I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city's *********** structure left the ***** community with no alternative.


At the end of the day I'm not sure MLK Jr's legacy easily points a finger at protests turned into riots without having four fingers pointing back at an unjust society and demanding we think about how and why we got here.


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## BPturkeys

Looting and property destruction has always has been an aspect of protest. Show me a "peaceful protest" that had any effect at all. Starting with the Boston Tea Party, right on up through "Nam", and now these "on-going race riots", no action is ever taken until the people's real anger and feelings are brought forth by some level of violence in our protest. Those in power have never, and will never respond to "please".


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## Vanilla

I'm sure the British thought our cute little "revolution" back in the 1700s was "ridiculous" as well. At least at first... 

We better pay attention to what is happening and figure out a way to get better. And I'm not just talking with race issues either. How we talk to and treat each other in general has to change. Bad things are coming our way if we don't figure this one out, that much I am sure of. There are forces that are only interested in driving a wedge and creating conflict. They are well established and thriving right now. 

An angry populace that constantly points fingers at the "other team" is an easily controlled and manipulated populace. I watch this daily in our current atmosphere of politics. Why do you think these people in power want you angry at the other side? It has nothing to do with helping you, I promise you that. It has everything to do with keeping them in power. 

We got changes coming. They will either come through thoughtful and respectful dialogue and TRUE leaders leading, or they will come with much pain, sorrow, and harm. But they are coming. If we think we are any different than many other societies of the past that have gone through these exact things, we are naive. I'd rather us fix things in a positive way than be forced to fix them through conflict. 

Combine all this with the COVID disaster, the US is an absolute tinder box. Are we going to throw water on this? Or are we going to light the match? That is entirely a personal decision, and you can't blame anyone but yourself for whatever decision you (and me) make in that regard.


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## bowgy

rioting
/ˈrīədiNG/

the violent disturbance of the peace by a crowd.


ter·ror·ism
/ˈterəˌrizəm/

noun
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.


noun
/ˈprōˌtest/
1.
a statement or action expressing disapproval of or objection to something.

verb
/prəˈtest,prōˈtest/
1.
express an objection to what someone has said or done.


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## brisket

Americans have been put under house arrest for 2 months. Combine that with 40+ million loosing their jobs and it isn't surprising that the murder of George Floyd was the match that lit the gasoline already poured across the country.


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## backcountry

brisket said:


> Americans have been put under house arrest for 2 months. Combine that with 40+ million loosing their jobs and it isn't surprising that the murder of George Floyd was the match that lit the gasoline already poured across the country.


Plus Breonna Taylor killed in her own home.

Plus Ahmaud Arbery gunned down while out for a run.

All three in the last three weeks. Plus the innumerable unarmed black citizens killed unjustly in the last couple years. It's on the rise and the tension has been building for way too long without resolution.


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## RandomElk16

backcountry said:


> Plus Breonna Taylor killed in her own home.
> 
> Plus Ahmaud Arbery gunned down while out for a run.
> 
> All three in the last three weeks. Plus the innumerable unarmed black citizens killed unjustly in the last couple years. It's on the rise and the tension has been building for way too long without resolution.


Those two are pretty different from this one outside of being tragedies.


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## Brettski7

backcountry said:


> Plus Breonna Taylor killed in her own home.
> 
> Plus Ahmaud Arbery gunned down while out for a run.
> 
> All three in the last three weeks. Plus the innumerable unarmed black citizens killed unjustly in the last couple years. It's on the rise and the tension has been building for way too long without resolution.


Please list some of these innumerable incidents.

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## Brettski7

Ray said:


> My two oldest boys are half black, I've seen the negative treatment first hand. One day, the oldest came home crying and started to ferociously scrub his hands, said kids were making fun of his skin and that he didn't want to be tan anymore. Believe when I tell you I've never wanted to punch a 5 year old in the face more, but violence isn't the way and that's not how I've taught my boys to be.


My niece is half black also. I can tell you she is picked on and bullied more by black people than white people solely because she is half white and has lighter skin. It goes both ways.

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## Brettski7

*"Peacfull Protest"*



Vanilla said:


> I don't justify the riots at all. Saying a meme was poignant is not saying "yes, let's burn the city down."
> 
> But the conversation that has ensued is very good example of why the meme was poignant to me. We've got to quit telling black people how to feel about their history and their present. And if you keep telling them their reasons or means of peaceful protest are "ridiculous," well, then what do you expect? For them to go sit in a corner quietly and "know their place?" This whole situation should be giving all of us a time for personal reflection on what we can do to effect change in our society. Change is needed. And I'm not just talking about George Floyd or riots either. If you can't see that change is needed, then I submit you are part of the problem. Because this one is plain as day right in front of all of our faces.
> 
> As Forest Gump would say, that's all I've got to say about that.


What exactly do you think the issue is and change that needs to be made?

I am genuinely interested.

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## backcountry

RandomElk16 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Breonna Taylor killed in her own home.
> 
> Plus Ahmaud Arbery gunned down while out for a run.
> 
> All three in the last three weeks. Plus the innumerable unarmed black citizens killed unjustly in the last couple years. It's on the rise and the tension has been building for way too long without resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> Those two are pretty different from this one outside of being tragedies.
Click to expand...

Those protesting and begging for change fundamentally disagree. They are linked by something much more obvious than just being tragedies.


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## backcountry

Brettski7 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus Breonna Taylor killed in her own home.
> 
> Plus Ahmaud Arbery gunned down while out for a run.
> 
> All three in the last three weeks. Plus the innumerable unarmed black citizens killed unjustly in the last couple years. It's on the rise and the tension has been building for way too long without resolution.
> 
> 
> 
> Please list some of these innumerable incidents.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Eric Garner (hard to ignore similarities). Chokehold over suspicion of illegal cigarette sales. Was reported to state "I can't breathe" almost a dozen times. Not even given oxygen on the scene.

Stephon Clark (201







. Shot in back at least 3 times plus other bullet wounds from police. Shot in his grandmother's backyard with just a cellphone.

Terrence Crutcher.

Walter Scott. Traffic stop, shot in back.

Kevin Higgenbotham: Actually called police for help. Beaten, appears from reporting to have died days later from resulting coma.

Not exhaustive at all but to be honest it's fallen on the backs of journalist to curate lists because it's never been a priority of our justice system.

And the "unarmed" element doesn't include lawfully armed like Philando Castille who was killed moments after voluntarily letting the police officer know he had a firearm and was registered to carry.

*Correction, "3 weeks" was way off. Arbery was killed months ago.


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## RandomElk16

backcountry said:


> Those protesting and begging for change fundamentally disagree. They are linked by something much more obvious than just being tragedies.


I mean... You have a lot of examples you could use so I am not fighting with you. But when you pick those 3 have an african american death as the only common trait. One was vigilantes where all the men, including the one who filmed, were charged like any other murder would. Another was a bad police policy that is indiscriminate and has led to multiple bad outcomes. Then you have George Floyd which was a cop who blatantly used excessive force which resulted in manslaughter/murder.

I wish we got to see more protesters. Unfortunately things are just clogged with communities on fire so I don't watch now.


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## Brettski7

So looked those up quickly. 

First one yes tragic and shouldn’t have happened. 340+ man against someone fraction of his size. Also not proven to be a racially motivated thing. Anyone talking btw can breath. It’s a requirement actually. But you are right it doesn’t excuse the actions and the cop should have been held more accountable than he was solely from the actions after taking him to ground. Believe he was fired. 

Next two again resisting arrest, pointing object at police, reaching into vehicle etc and not following commands. Police felt lives were in danger. Again show me where these were racially motivated. I will say the actions after the shooting on one of them is unacceptable and I believe what actually caused the protests. 

I believe cops were charged with murder in a few of these as well. 

That’s the thing. People don’t look at all the facts. They just see white cop or cop in general and black man and think oh that’s racism. It’s kit the case. It’s not factual. Are there racist police officers. Yes. No one is refuting that. But it’s not the norm. There is not large widespread systemic racism. If one looks at the facts and statistics and actually looks at all the facts of cars then th can easily see the truth. 

I believe the cases you posted where convictions were made, that was the right thing. There was accountability. 

George Floyd case here, murder plain and simple and the charges are filed. Accountability is being taken. Was it racially motivated, we don’t know that. People just see a white cop and black victim and automatically label it racism and that is a large part of the issue I believe. 


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## High Desert Elk

Race is never an issue until a political undertone makes it one.

During the early days of the American Revolution, there were a few violent protests. Difference between theirs and "ours" is the British Crown made public displays of what happened to Mr. Floyd in MN as a deterrent to peaceful protest...


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## backcountry

RandomElk16 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Those protesting and begging for change fundamentally disagree. They are linked by something much more obvious than just being tragedies.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean... You have a lot of examples you could use so I am not fighting with you. But when you pick those 3 have an african american death as the only common trait. One was vigilantes where all the men, including the one who filmed, were charged like any other murder would. Another was a bad police policy that is indiscriminate and has led to multiple bad outcomes. Then you have George Floyd which was a cop who blatantly used excessive force which resulted in manslaughter/murder.
> 
> I wish we got to see more protesters. Unfortunately things are just clogged with communities on fire so I don't watch now.
Click to expand...

Not "only". I think listening to minority citizens leads to understanding how the incidents are linked in profound ways that can't be written off so easily.

As has been stated multiple times, we get to decide if we listen to those protesting. We get to choose if we are vulnerable to their lessons and to the injustices that are unique to minority communities.

Ahmaud Arbery's case only started seeing real activity after the tape was leaked and public pressure was ramping up. I've known one person to be murdered. He was white and there weren't tapes. But they arrested the suspect the next day off of relatively loose witness descriptions. There is little doubt the vigilantes received more time and privilege because of who they were or weren't, ie white and former police officer. In fact we know an official who recused themselves because they knew the two suspects still wrote a letter to the investigators defending them and discouraging prosecution. The situation and process exposes so much of what is currently being protested.


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## backcountry

Brettski7 said:


> So looked those up quickly.
> 
> First one yes tragic and shouldn't have happened. 340+ man against someone fraction of his size. Also not proven to be a racially motivated thing. Anyone talking btw can breath. It's a requirement actually. But you are right it doesn't excuse the actions and the cop should have been held more accountable than he was solely from the actions after taking him to ground. Believe he was fired.
> 
> Next two again resisting arrest, pointing object at police, reaching into vehicle etc and not following commands. Police felt lives were in danger. Again show me where these were racially motivated. I will say the actions after the shooting on one of them is unacceptable and I believe what actually caused the protests.
> 
> I believe cops were charged with murder in a few of these as well.
> 
> That's the thing. People don't look at all the facts. They just see white cop or cop in general and black man and think oh that's racism. It's kit the case. It's not factual. Are there racist police officers. Yes. No one is refuting that. But it's not the norm. There is not large widespread systemic racism. If one looks at the facts and statistics and actually looks at all the facts of cars then th can easily see the truth.
> 
> I believe the cases you posted where convictions were made, that was the right thing. There was accountability.
> 
> George Floyd case here, murder plain and simple and the charges are filed. Accountability is being taken. Was it racially motivated, we don't know that. People just see a white cop and black victim and automatically label it racism and that is a large part of the issue I believe.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To be very clear, it's not just white police officers that enforce systemic racism. Just like it's not just men who regulate systemic sexism.

George Floyd's case saw swift action because of protests.

Like others, I'll encourage you to actually listen to these fellow citizens and what their lived experience is. Not only do the statistics and facts not align with your claims but their lived history doesn't either. And as MLK Jr said



> Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.


The question remains if we as a nation will just accept these injustices our fellow citizens are experiencing year after year.

*PS ... systemic racism doesn't require overtly racist individuals to be the norm. It's insidious that way. It just requires perpetuating certain undertones and stereotypes and enough people acting, most often unconsciously, on them. That very well could be the reality at play with Floyd's case, hence not seeing anyone here claiming it was overt racism.


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## Brettski7

backcountry said:


> To be very clear, it's not just white police officers that enforce systemic racism. Just like it's not just men who regulate systemic sexism.
> 
> George Floyd's case saw swift action because of protests.
> 
> Like others, I'll encourage you to actually listen to these fellow citizens and what their lived experience is. Not only do the statistics and facts not align with your claims but their lived history doesn't either. And as MLK Jr said
> 
> The question remains if we as a nation will just accept these injustices our fellow citizens are experiencing year after year.
> 
> *PS ... systemic racism doesn't require overtly racist individuals to be the norm. It's insidious that way. It just requires perpetuating certain undertones and stereotypes and enough people acting, most often unconsciously, on them. That very well could be the reality at play with Floyd's case, hence not seeing anyone here claiming it was overt racism.


The facts and stats do support it. And my own personal and lived experiences do also.

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## middlefork

Looks like the go to solution for any current problem is to lock it down.

https://www.ksl.com/article/4675970...g-nighttime-curfew-amid-george-floyd-protests


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## backcountry

Brettski7 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be very clear, it's not just white police officers that enforce systemic racism. Just like it's not just men who regulate systemic sexism.
> 
> George Floyd's case saw swift action because of protests.
> 
> Like others, I'll encourage you to actually listen to these fellow citizens and what their lived experience is. Not only do the statistics and facts not align with your claims but their lived history doesn't either. And as MLK Jr said
> 
> The question remains if we as a nation will just accept these injustices our fellow citizens are experiencing year after year.
> 
> *PS ... systemic racism doesn't require overtly racist individuals to be the norm. It's insidious that way. It just requires perpetuating certain undertones and stereotypes and enough people acting, most often unconsciously, on them. That very well could be the reality at play with Floyd's case, hence not seeing anyone here claiming it was overt racism.
> 
> 
> 
> The facts and stats do support it. And my own personal and lived experiences do also.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Can't argue personal anecdotes. I know I've personally seen systemic racism at play and been pushed back when exposing it. Coming to terms with that was a painful process as it meant I had to be honest with my own accountability in the processes and that's unpleasant.

Care to link your stats and facts if they are so clear cut?


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## backcountry

middlefork said:


> Looks like the go to solution for any current problem is to lock it down.
> 
> https://www.ksl.com/article/4675970...g-nighttime-curfew-amid-george-floyd-protests


In all sincerity I hope everyone remains safe and healthy tonight and in the days to come. There are forces at play here that often ensnare peaceful citizens in the violence.

I can say for the first time in a long time I fear for the safety of our citizens as a whole and the preservation of what we know. And that fear is in response to a minority of citizens being violent as well as the elements being deployed against them. The combination of those isn't a sign of peaceable outcomes. Comparisons to 1968 are a reality that is rather ominous.

Stay safe.


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## Vanilla

Brettski7 said:


> The facts and stats do support it. And my own personal and lived experiences do also.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll take your word on bias and racism against blacks in America based upon your lived experiences over that of the blacks and their lived experiences. You have a half black niece, after all! What a joke.

What needs to change? Bull crap justifications like you keep repeating here. Go read a history book. None of this is hard to see. If you want to see it. Some clearly don't. I'm out on this one.

Someone on this forum has a signature line that I recall came from a movie that I loved when I was younger, but could be from elsewhere. The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing people he didn't exist. Keep pretending all you want. It's America, after all. A place where we are ALL supposed to be free.


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## Brettski7

Vanilla said:


> I'll take your word on bias and racism against blacks in America based upon your lived experiences over that of the blacks and their lived experiences. You have a half black niece, after all! What a joke.
> 
> What needs to change? Bull crap justifications like you keep repeating here. Go read a history book. None of this is hard to see. If you want to see it. Some clearly don't. I'm out on this one.
> 
> Someone on this forum has a signature line that I recall came from a movie that I loved when I was younger, but could be from elsewhere. The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing people he didn't exist. Keep pretending all you want. It's America, after all. A place where we are ALL supposed to be free.


Bull crap justifications? You mean facts of the cases. I'm sorry you choose to ignore them I don't. History books. I know history. I also look at NOW as that's what we are talking about and what applies at the moment. Again you have provided nothing of substance and didn't answer the questions. I was genuinely interested in what you had to say. Turns out you have nothing. Yes I have a black niece, a black step mother which includes black relatives on that side of the family and I also grew up in a state and part of the country with a much higher minority population than Utah, much higher crime rate than Utah which also used to have the highest murder rate in the US made up by two cities. So yes sorry I have actual substance and experiences. I have also worked in the criminal justice system a few years. I have seen and experienced racism from all sides of the spectrum. You dint have to be white to be a racist.

Also for backcountry as you seem to at least want to have a conversation you can do a quick google search on crime statistics and see some of the facts for yourself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## backcountry

Brettski7 said:


> Vanilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll take your word on bias and racism against blacks in America based upon your lived experiences over that of the blacks and their lived experiences. You have a half black niece, after all! What a joke.
> 
> What needs to change? Bull crap justifications like you keep repeating here. Go read a history book. None of this is hard to see. If you want to see it. Some clearly don't. I'm out on this one.
> 
> Someone on this forum has a signature line that I recall came from a movie that I loved when I was younger, but could be from elsewhere. The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing people he didn't exist. Keep pretending all you want. It's America, after all. A place where we are ALL supposed to be free.
> 
> 
> 
> Bull crap justifications? You mean facts of the cases. I'm sorry you choose to ignore them I don't. History books. I know history. I also look at NOW as that's what we are talking about and what applies at the moment. Again you have provided nothing of substance and didn't answer the questions. I was genuinely interested in what you had to say. Turns out you have nothing. Yes I have a black niece, a black step mother which includes black relatives on that side of the family and I also grew up in a state and part of the country with a much higher minority population than Utah, much higher crime rate than Utah which also used to have the highest murder rate in the US made up by two cities. So yes sorry I have actual substance and experiences. I have also worked in the criminal justice system a few years. I have seen and experienced racism from all sides of the spectrum. You dint have to be white to be a racist.
> 
> Also for backcountry as you seem to at least want to have a conversation you can do a quick google search on crime statistics and see some of the facts for yourself.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I've done the research. I stepped up and provided evidence to my claim when you asked. Can you do the same? Can you show me evidence that unarmed black citizens don't experience higher levels of police shooting/violence, fatal and otherwise, than other citizens? I assume you understand statistics and know that answer must include comparisons to overall demographic representation.

I've done my research but I'm curious to see yours as your claims don't align with the statistical analysis I've seen or the experiences these citizens are sharing.


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## Brettski7

backcountry said:


> I've done the research. I stepped up and provided evidence to my claim when you asked. Can you do the same? Can you show me evidence that unarmed black citizens don't experience higher levels of police shooting/violence, fatal and otherwise, than other citizens? I assume you understand statistics and know that answer must include comparisons to overall demographic representation.
> 
> I've done my research but I'm curious to see yours as your claims don't align with the statistical analysis I've seen or the experiences these citizens are sharing.


You provided a few cases of which some were faulty and don't support your claim. Some did and those are unfortunate but again not the norm. It is also shown that more white people are killed by cops than black people and yes some of those included unarmed people as they will be similar to some of the scenarios you provided. I may have missed it or misunderstood but I wasn't focusing on the unarmed part.

Yes you are right studies do show that more unarmed black people are killed by cops than white people. It's a small percentage of the overall number but still more. Now just because someone is unarmed does not mean they aren't a threat to someone lets make that clear. Not saying that is the case for all of these incidents and agree it should be something to be looked into. Could it be explained that stats show minorities commit more violent crime? I honestly don't know. It seems there are a lot of studies here lately looking into this stuff. There have been flaws pointed out in nearly all of them also.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## backcountry

Brettski7 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've done the research. I stepped up and provided evidence to my claim when you asked. Can you do the same? Can you show me evidence that unarmed black citizens don't experience higher levels of police shooting/violence, fatal and otherwise, than other citizens? I assume you understand statistics and know that answer must include comparisons to overall demographic representation.
> 
> I've done my research but I'm curious to see yours as your claims don't align with the statistical analysis I've seen or the experiences these citizens are sharing.
> 
> 
> 
> You provided a few cases of which some were faulty and don't support your claim. Some did and those are unfortunate but again not the norm. It is also shown that more white people are killed by cops than black people and yes some of those included unarmed people as they will be similar to some of the scenarios you provided. I may have missed it or misunderstood but I wasn't focusing on the unarmed part.
> 
> Yes you are right studies do show that more unarmed black people are killed by cops than white people. It's a small percentage of the overall number but still more. Now just because someone is unarmed does not mean they aren't a threat to someone lets make that clear. Not saying that is the case for all of these incidents and agree it should be something to be looked into. Could it be explained that stats show minorities commit more violent crime? I honestly don't know. It seems there are a lot of studies here lately looking into this stuff. There have been flaws pointed out in nearly all of them also.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Mine supported my claim, just not your presumption of it.

You just explained and justified BLM-like protests in your responses.

Should unarmed black citizens die from police violence? There is only one answer in a free and just society.

And it appears you don't understand statistics if you think raw facts ("more white people") are an accurate way of understanding data. When it comes to these issues you have to compare to relative demographic representation and in this case unarmed black citizens are unjustly killed at significantly higher ratios then their fellow white citizens.

And it doesn't matter who commits more crime. Police are expected to interact with individuals and act in scale of the behavior encountered. Black citizens aren't afforded that reality in the same way white citizens have been afforded.

Until that happens you will either learn to accept "ridiculous" protests as just or see citizens force change in an unjust system. It's written into our declaration of independence. I think everyone in a free society benefits when we accommodate justice without extreme tension.

In the freest, most advanced country known to man we can expect to deal with these issues head on. It's not too much to ask for law enforcement and our justice system to actually be blind, not just claim to be. We get to decide which side of history we are on in this issue and the choice is clear for anyone that values life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


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## Brettski7

*"Peacfull Protest"*



backcountry said:


> Mine supported my claim, just not your presumption of it.
> 
> You just explained and justified BLM-like protests in your responses.
> 
> Should unarmed black citizens die from police violence? There is only one answer in a free and just society.
> 
> And it appears you don't understand statistics if you think raw facts ("more white people") are an accurate way of understanding data. When it comes to these issues you have to compare to relative demographic representation and in this case unarmed black citizens are unjustly killed at significantly higher ratios then their fellow white citizens.
> 
> And it doesn't matter who commits more crime. Police are expected to interact with individuals and act in scale of the behavior encountered. Black citizens aren't afforded that reality in the same way white citizens have been afforded.
> 
> Until that happens you will either learn to accept "ridiculous" protests as just or see citizens force change in an unjust system. It's written into our declaration of independence. I think everyone in a free society benefits when we accommodate justice without extreme tension.
> 
> In the freest, most advanced country known to man we can expect to deal with these issues head on. It's not too much to ask for law enforcement and our justice system to actually be blind, not just claim to be. We get to decide which side of history we are on in this issue and the choice is clear for anyone that values life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


Again you are assuming that because one is unarmed they are not a threat. That is simply false. But I also stated i don't believe it makes up the whole percentage and it is something to look into. Basically you've given me something to think about and consider and start to agree with your point of view. It also does matter who commits more crime as police will interact with those people more, which could effect stats against a certain group. You also have to consider the type of crime also as I stated violent crime. But I believe I understand your point as it may not have any effect on the unarmed stats. So you may be right. For the record I never said all of these protest were ridiculous.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## backcountry

Brettski7 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mine supported my claim, just not your presumption of it.
> 
> You just explained and justified BLM-like protests in your responses.
> 
> Should unarmed black citizens die from police violence? There is only one answer in a free and just society.
> 
> And it appears you don't understand statistics if you think raw facts ("more white people") are an accurate way of understanding data. When it comes to these issues you have to compare to relative demographic representation and in this case unarmed black citizens are unjustly killed at significantly higher ratios then their fellow white citizens.
> 
> And it doesn't matter who commits more crime. Police are expected to interact with individuals and act in scale of the behavior encountered. Black citizens aren't afforded that reality in the same way white citizens have been afforded.
> 
> Until that happens you will either learn to accept "ridiculous" protests as just or see citizens force change in an unjust system. It's written into our declaration of independence. I think everyone in a free society benefits when we accommodate justice without extreme tension.
> 
> In the freest, most advanced country known to man we can expect to deal with these issues head on. It's not too much to ask for law enforcement and our justice system to actually be blind, not just claim to be. We get to decide which side of history we are on in this issue and the choice is clear for anyone that values life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
> 
> 
> 
> Again you are assuming that because one is unarmed they are not a threat. That is simply false. But I also stated i don't believe it makes up the whole percentage and it is something to look into. Basically you've given me something to think about and consider and start to agree with your point of view. It also does matter who commits more crime as police will interact with those people more, which could effect stats against a certain group.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

In a just and free society police will interact with an individual not their perception of them, even if the demographic they involuntarily are part of hypothetically commit more crime. That's baked into the concept of justice.

And unarmed citizen also matters immensely in a free and just society as police would act with scaled, non-lethal measures to apprehend such individuals. Even ones who allegedly pose a presumed threat, even unarmed. We are capable of finding resolution without disproportionate fatalities.

That is what BLM and the like have been bringing to our attention for years. Are you willing to learn that lesson? I get the sense the answer could be yes but a clear indication of that would be admitting non-violent protests to highlight these disparities aren't "ridiculous".


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## Ray

There's no way for a police officer to know if a person is armed or not, so when People reach into their pockets, Even though they were instructed to stop, they assume the worse and understandably so.

They have families they want to make it home to as well, people tend to forget that. Just listen to the commands given and you should be fine.

I do take issue with the quote given below as it's factually incorrect, White males are disproportionately killed by police officers. a simple google search will prove that, or get on the fbi page and go over their statistics. I provided a link to one such website below.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

/QUOTE]

We are capable of finding resolution without disproportionate fatalities.[/QUOTE]


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## backcountry

Ray said:


> There's no way for a police officer to know if a person is armed or not, so when People reach into their pockets, Even though they were instructed to stop, they assume the worse and understandably so.
> 
> They have families they want to make it home to as well, people tend to forget that. Just listen to the commands given and you should be fine.
> 
> I do take issue with the quote given below as it's factually incorrect, White males are disproportionately killed by police officers. a simple google search will prove that, or get on the fbi page and go over their statistics. I provided a link to one such website below.
> 
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/


Nope. Those are raw data. To understand the statistical relevance you have to take into account the percent of US population. Black Americans are killed significantly more than white Americans when you understand statistics. By your own data, in 2019 black citizens represented 23% (rounded down) of police shooting fatalities while only being roughly 15% of the US population (rounded up). White citizens represented 37% of the fatalities while being 76% of the US population. That's not a subtle difference.

And no, in a just and free society police do not shoot unarmed citizens, especially in the back. That is a simple expectation that any liberty loving citizen should easily embrace. And it becomes even more an issue when a race experiences statistically more fatalities than others.

And it becomes clearer when a cop kneels on a black mans throat as he begs for his life (twice now on camera). It's pretty **** clear listening to commands isn't enough then. Or with Philando Castille.

Are we really just going to abandon that basic sense of justice as a society?


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## BPturkeys

Perhaps this "Brothers in Blue" tribal behavior needs to be re-evaluated by police officers. Maybe something like "Brothers in Humanity" would be a better motto for life.

To stand by and watch as one human being suffocates down another....why not just a bullet to the head, then maybe he'll stop moving. 

Now the President wants to send in the Army so "we the people" will stop moving!

This is so much more than just "Black lives Matter".


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## Lone_Hunter

Gotta love coming back from the last weekend of the turkey hunt (my wife is now hooked. LOL), and seeing this. A weekend hunting in the mountains can feel like a week has gone by. So I come back, and now apparently cars are burning in the streets of Salt lake? Something about Black lives matter, and staged protests across the country? I am shocked this happened in Utah at all, but not surprised in the least it happened in SLC given the "poll'ticks" involved.

Oh and the world of covid hasn't changed much except for a huge memorial day spike. Happy happy joy joy. -O,-
I can't get back to the mountains fast enough.


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## backcountry

We are watching a turning point and we have decisions to make. Our president just claimed "Antifa" a "domestic terrorist" group despite that not being a legal definition. Soon thereafter he's talked about indiscriminate "total domination" as officers *tear gased what religious observers called peaceful protests so he could have a photo-op, one immediately condemned by the bishop in charge of the cathedral. 

But the language worked. Tom Cotton, trained in military law, actually used the phrase "no quarter" against American citizens. Rhetoric matters and "no quarter" is unconstitutional when applied against citizens in their own country 

Matt Gaetz wrote "Now that we clearly see Antifa as terrorists, can we hunt them down like we do those in the Middle East?" We don't hunt down citizens in democracies. And we definitely don't get to treat citizens, even criminals, as "unlawful enemy combatants". 

In our Republic we use proportional and constitutional measures to bring criminals to justice, including violent individuals in Antifa. It's the bedrock of our system and a hallmark of liberal democracies. Are we allowing politicians to abandon that basic, fundamentally conservative principle? 

Like I said, we have choices to make as citizens in hard times.

*Odd that we can use tear gas on citizens despite it being a prohibited chemical weapons in warfare.


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## Vanilla

When we’re talking about a biased overall system against blacks, why is the only focus point some want to think about police shootings? 

Was Ahmed Aubrey shot by a police officer? Was George Floyd shot by a police officer? Even go back to Eric Garner, was he shot by police? Trayvon Martin? What about the lady in Central Park that was going to (and did) “call the police and tell them that an African American man is threatening my life!” I could go on, and on, and on. If you can’t see that black people are treated differently in this country, I have zero desire to discuss the issue, because it’s wasted effort. Like I said, pick up a history book. It’s not just about police shootings. It isn’t just about the police. There is an articulable problem there that needs to be addressed, but that intensely unfair to single out law enforcement in this. It’s about every single one of us. 

If Ahmed Aubrey were white, would he be alive today? My answer to that is very simply yes. And that one case illustrates very clearly the entire problem we’re facing. Some have no desire to even think about that, though. 

Oh, there also might be more than one of us here that has “a little bit of time” working in the criminal justice system. Just maybe...


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## backcountry

Beyond legal and constitutional issues we also know from decades of data that the type of force being advocated actually escalates response, including from the majority of protestors who are trying to maintain the peace.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...es-why-departments-respond-with-force-anyway/

We are capable of enforcing laws, protecting officers and civilians, protecting property and upholding liberties all at the same time. Those aren't mutually exclusive goals.


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## backcountry

100% agree with Vanilla that this is more than a policing issue. I hope I was clear that in understanding systemic racism I was uncomfortable because of how I was, and am, personally implicated. The lessons in learning to be anti-racist are not easy and to be honest they take a lifetime if not generations.


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## Vanilla

My wife and I were watching last night live. I was very impressed with the leader of the one group. “Let’s go home. There is always tomorrow.” This guy gets it. He also happened to be a black man. And the police treated him with respect. (From what I could tell.) I hope people are paying attention. 

Otherwise, their “ridiculous” protests might turn into something else down the road. 

It’s time we all start asking ourselves difficult questions, I know I have. It has been uncomfortable to confront what I think about certain things in some ways, but I’m going to be a better, more accepting person because of. At least that is the goal.


----------



## Ray

backcountry said:


> Nope. Those are raw data. To understand the statistical relevance you have to take into account the percent of US population. Black Americans are killed significantly more than white Americans when you understand statistics. By your own data, in 2019 black citizens represented 23% (rounded down) of police shooting fatalities while only being roughly 15% of the US population (rounded up). White citizens represented 37% of the fatalities while being 76% of the US population. That's not a subtle difference.
> 
> And no, in a just and free society police do not shoot unarmed citizens, especially in the back. That is a simple expectation that any liberty loving citizen should easily embrace. And it becomes even more an issue when a race experiences statistically more fatalities than others.
> 
> And it becomes clearer when a cop kneels on a black mans throat as he begs for his life (twice now on camera). It's pretty **** clear listening to commands isn't enough then. Or with Philando Castille.
> 
> Are we really just going to abandon that basic sense of justice as a society?


correlation is not causation. You can't look at a portion of the data and say it's all due to racism. Are there individual instances of racism? Of course. But you can't say, every time a white cop kills a black man, that it's racist. How many of those was the guy resisting, or fighting, or reaching for something, or had a knife, or another weapon? How many of those were the result of an incompetent cop? It's not racism just because the cop is white. Also, how many of the black killings were done by black cops?

I think the culture is mostly at fault here. I can tell you from personal experience my boys are taught from the other side of the family that police officers are out to get them and to not listen to authority and to resist, this is a pretty common theme throughout the community.

How is 13% of the population responsible for 50% of all murder? In 1994 there was a federal case in NJ, they thought the highway patrol was targeting black people because of the disproportionate amount of black people being ticketed. What they found was that it was simply a disproportionate amount of black people speeding, there was no racism at all. My point is this, is it possible that a disproportionate number of black people are being arrested or shot because a disproportionate number of them are committing crimes and/or resisting? Or is it that every single individual police department across the country is racist? you'll often find in life, that the simplest answer is usually the correct one.


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## Critter

Wouldn't be be karma if most of these punks that are causing all the problems came down with Corona?


----------



## backcountry

Ray said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Those are raw data. To understand the statistical relevance you have to take into account the percent of US population. Black Americans are killed significantly more than white Americans when you understand statistics. By your own data, in 2019 black citizens represented 23% (rounded down) of police shooting fatalities while only being roughly 15% of the US population (rounded up). White citizens represented 37% of the fatalities while being 76% of the US population. That's not a subtle difference.
> 
> And no, in a just and free society police do not shoot unarmed citizens, especially in the back. That is a simple expectation that any liberty loving citizen should easily embrace. And it becomes even more an issue when a race experiences statistically more fatalities than others.
> 
> And it becomes clearer when a cop kneels on a black mans throat as he begs for his life (twice now on camera). It's pretty **** clear listening to commands isn't enough then. Or with Philando Castille.
> 
> Are we really just going to abandon that basic sense of justice as a society?
> 
> 
> 
> correlation is not causation. You can't look at a portion of the data and say it's all due to racism. Are there individual instances of racism? Of course. But you can't say, every time a white cop kills a black man, that it's racist. How many of those was the guy resisting, or fighting, or reaching for something, or had a knife, or another weapon? How many of those were the result of an incompetent cop? It's not racism just because the cop is white. Also, how many of the black killings were done by black cops?
> 
> I think the culture is mostly at fault here. I can tell you from personal experience my boys are taught from the other side of the family that police officers are out to get them and to not listen to authority and to resist, this is a pretty common theme throughout the community.
> 
> How is 13% of the population responsible for 50% of all murder? In 1994 there was a federal case in NJ, they thought the highway patrol was targeting black people because of the disproportionate amount of black people being ticketed. What they found was that it was simply a disproportionate amount of black people speeding, there was no racism at all. My point is this, is it possible that a disproportionate number of black people are being arrested or shot because a disproportionate number of them are committing crimes and/or resisting? Or is it that every single individual police department across the country is racist? you'll often find in life, that the simplest answer is usually the correct one.
Click to expand...

First off, it's helpful to admit your claim was wrong before moving the goalpost. White Americans do not experience more police shootings statistically. Can you please admit that?

Second, no one here is saying they are all cases of overt racist. I'll repeat... systemic racism doesn't require overt racism. It simply requires enough unconscious bias to maintain itself.

Third, we know people of color also play s part in systemic racism. It's an unfortunate reality. Philando Castile was killed by an Asian American police officer if I remember correctly.

Fourth, few people I know criticize the use of proportional force when it's justified. But we know from statistical analysis that unarmed (it matters no matter how often you claim it doesn't) black citizens are killed by police at higher proportions than their white cohorts. That is why systemic racism is a problem and why groups have been protesting for a decade (and more). Unarmed black citizens should survive police encounters at the same rate as their fellow white citizens and have their chance to make it to court. You can't defend yourself when you are dead.

Please stop coming up with rationalizations, assuming you care a facts and fundamental American principles, for why it's not true when we've had the data and analysis to support these protests of injustice for years now. We either stand on the side of liberty and justice for all in this moment or we protect an unjust status quo. And we can create a more just America for our fellow citizens while protecting police officers and upholding the law.

Occam's razor in this case clearly points to an American history who racism has deeps roots affecting people to this day. We didn't end it's impact in the 60s and minorities have been begging for us to listen since then.
And it can't be repeated enough.... unarmed citizens shouldn't be killed by police. The greatest country in history should train police to respond proportionally without unjust fatalities. That's not too much to ask especially when those dead citizens are disproportionately black.

PS....your anecdote about speeding has no bearing here. For everyone one of those situations we have blatant evidence of truly egregious and unconstitutional measures like stop and frisk that blatantly/intentionally policed black citizens (especially men) disproportionately and ensnared tons of completely innocent civilians. The funny thing is outcomes like you describe can and do coexist alongside problematic policing and don't cancel such horrendous realities out.


----------



## Ray

"First off, it's helpful to admit your claim was wrong before moving the goalpost. White Americans do not experience more police shootings statistically. Can you please admit that?"

I wasn't wrong at all, literally twice as many white american's die by police than blacks, that's factual. They literally experience more police shootings, statistically. which is what my argument was from the get. your argument is that a higher percentage of blacks when compared to how many there in the country experience it, which is a different argument. I wasn't wrong in the slightest, 200 to 400 is a pretty straight figure. 


Lastly, Stop and Frisk was implemented where murder rates were the highest, it just so happened to be (yet again) black and other minorities disproportionately murdering people. If you view the statics, In 2008, 88.6% of murder and non-negligent manslaughter victims in New York were black or Hispanic, and 92.8% of murder and non-negligent manslaughter suspects were black or Hispanic, according to New York government statistics. And black and Hispanic suspects were actually under-arrested. by these same statistics, just 83.9% of arrestees for murder and non-negligent manslaughter were black or Hispanic. 

Because of stop and frisk, they were able to take the murder rate from approximately 2,000 people killed in 1993 to 289 in 2018, so, it worked. keep in mind that the murder rate pretty well sat at around 1700+ annually from the 70's through the 90's and finally starting to decline after stop and frisk was implemented. It wasn't racially biased at all, to argue it was shows your lack of understanding the true nature of it, or it's statistics. About 95% murders and murderers and murder victims were male minorities, aged 15 to 25. Again, they put the police in the areas where the crimes were happening, not because of "systemic racism". It's not racist to put police into an area thats producing 95% of all murders in your state, that's just called active policing.


----------



## Vanilla

Ray said:


> It wasn't racially biased at all, to argue it was shows your lack of understanding the true nature of it, or it's statistics.


Some of the very people responsible for these types of policies have admitted it was and it disproportionately impacted minorities. So, I guess someone is showing their lack of understanding of the true nature of it, for sure.

If people want to sit and pretend these issues don't exist, that's fine. That's your right. But it doesn't make you right. These things are literally staring us right in the face, and each of us will have to individually choose how we respond. Do something positive, bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist, or actively try to cover it up...There will be all kinds. I know what I will be choosing because I want this crap to end.


----------



## Kwalk3

Ray said:


> "First off, it's helpful to admit your claim was wrong before moving the goalpost. White Americans do not experience more police shootings statistically. Can you please admit that?"
> 
> I wasn't wrong at all, literally twice as many white american's die by police than blacks, that's factual. They literally experience more police shootings, statistically. which is what my argument was from the get. your argument is that a higher percentage of blacks when compared to how many there in the country experience it, which is a different argument. I wasn't wrong in the slightest, 200 to 400 is a pretty straight figure.
> 
> Lastly, Stop and Frisk was implemented where murder rates were the highest, it just so happened to be (yet again) black and other minorities disproportionately murdering people. If you view the statics, In 2008, 88.6% of murder and non-negligent manslaughter victims in New York were black or Hispanic, and 92.8% of murder and non-negligent manslaughter suspects were black or Hispanic, according to New York government statistics. And black and Hispanic suspects were actually under-arrested. by these same statistics, just 83.9% of arrestees for murder and non-negligent manslaughter were black or Hispanic.
> 
> Because of stop and frisk, they were able to take the murder rate from approximately 2,000 people killed in 1993 to 289 in 2018, so, it worked. keep in mind that the murder rate pretty well sat at around 1700+ annually from the 70's through the 90's and finally starting to decline after stop and frisk was implemented. It wasn't racially biased at all, to argue it was shows your lack of understanding the true nature of it, or it's statistics. About 95% murders and murderers and murder victims were male minorities, aged 15 to 25. Again, they put the police in the areas where the crimes were happening, not because of "systemic racism". It's not racist to put police into an area thats producing 95% of all murders in your state, that's just called active policing.


Not sure this is the moment in our history to be repeating the same narratives that have led up to this, or to be defending "stop and frisk."

This should be a moment for us to reflect, and realize that perhaps, even if we have looked at the data you reference, that there is something missing from the equation. I have heard, and at times repeated some of the same arguments, or at least just quietly accepted that it makes sense. It's been a way to sub-consciously push the problem from my shoulders back to the shoulders of those who it actually affects.

If someone, or in this case a large group of people says "this affects ME, this hurts ME," there's probably a reason for that. Maybe instead of trying to explain it away using cherry-picked statistics and anecdotes, we just listen? I haven't done a great job about that in the past as it pertains to this issue and many others.

We could all use a little more thoughtfulness and understanding. Sometimes that means just listening. I don't know the solution to this, but I do know it's not gonna get any better if we refuse to listen to those whose life experiences differ from our own.


----------



## Ray

Vanilla said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't racially biased at all, to argue it was shows your lack of understanding the true nature of it, or it's statistics.
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the very people responsible for these types of policies have admitted it was and it disproportionately impacted minorities. So, I guess someone is showing their lack of understanding of the true nature of it, for sure.
> 
> If people want to sit and pretend these issues don't exist, that's fine. That's your right. But it doesn't make you right. These things are literally staring us right in the face, and each of us will have to individually choose how we respond. Do something positive, bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist, or actively try to cover it up...There will be all kinds. I know what I will be choosing because I want this crap to end.
Click to expand...

Of course it impacted minorities more, I even admitted as much. But the reason why it did isn't because of the agenda you're trying to push. It impacted them more because the crimes were disproportionately being done by minorities, in minority areas. not because NYPD hated minorities. They went to where the crimes were taking place, plain and simple.

Again, I agreed there are individual instances of racism, which I'm against.

I see the racism, I've experienced it first hand. But you can't go around claiming everything that happens is race based.


----------



## Kwalk3

Ray said:


> Of course it impacted minorities more, I even admitted as much. But the reason why it did isn't because of the agenda you're trying to push. It impacted them more because the crimes were disproportionately being done by minorities, in minority areas. not because NYPD hated minorities. They went to where the crimes were taking place, plain and simple.
> 
> Again, I agreed there are individual instances of racism, which I'm against.
> 
> I see the racism, I've experienced it first hand. But you can't go around claiming everything that happens is race based.


Racism isn't confined to "instances" and overt acts. It doesn't even necessarily require bad intentions. It doesn't necessarily require feelings of hatred. The problem would be much easier to solve if it was that simple. I think it's easy to condemn the overt acts. It's much more difficult to identify and address the things we don't view as racist or racially motivated, but that make groups of people feel marginalized in our society.


----------



## backcountry

Ray said:


> "First off, it's helpful to admit your claim was wrong before moving the goalpost. White Americans do not experience more police shootings statistically. Can you please admit that?"
> 
> I wasn't wrong at all, literally twice as many white american's die by police than blacks, that's factual. They literally experience more police shootings, statistically. which is what my argument was from the get. your argument is that a higher percentage of blacks when compared to how many there in the country experience it, which is a different argument. I wasn't wrong in the slightest, 200 to 400 is a pretty straight figure.
> 
> Lastly, Stop and Frisk was implemented where murder rates were the highest, it just so happened to be (yet again) black and other minorities disproportionately murdering people. If you view the statics, In 2008, 88.6% of murder and non-negligent manslaughter victims in New York were black or Hispanic, and 92.8% of murder and non-negligent manslaughter suspects were black or Hispanic, according to New York government statistics. And black and Hispanic suspects were actually under-arrested. by these same statistics, just 83.9% of arrestees for murder and non-negligent manslaughter were black or Hispanic.
> 
> Because of stop and frisk, they were able to take the murder rate from approximately 2,000 people killed in 1993 to 289 in 2018, so, it worked. keep in mind that the murder rate pretty well sat at around 1700+ annually from the 70's through the 90's and finally starting to decline after stop and frisk was implemented. It wasn't racially biased at all, to argue it was shows your lack of understanding the true nature of it, or it's statistics. About 95% murders and murderers and murder victims were male minorities, aged 15 to 25. Again, they put the police in the areas where the crimes were happening, not because of "systemic racism". It's not racist to put police into an area thats producing 95% of all murders in your state, that's just called active policing.


Uh, I actually fully understand it and so did the courts. It is racially motivated to target black citizens without just cause simply because they are black. If that is what you consider "active policing" than the concept of "active policing" you provided is racist as hell. Full stop. (For clarity, the idea is racist, I sincerely believe most Americans aren't nor do I plan on calling anyone here that very name because I can't know).

In a liberal democracy citizens are considered innocent without proper evidence. Being black isn't evidence. Full stop.

You just once again fully explained and justified protests like we are seeing. And what you describe goes beyond implicit bias well into the realm of explicit bias. If you care about liberty and justice you would spend a fair amount of time inventorying how incompatible what you just explained is with our nation's inherent and overt values.

And you originally stated the below not moving the goalpoast of "They literally experience more police shootings"



> I do take issue with the quote given below as it's factually incorrect, White males are disproportionately killed by police officers.


Sorry, by raw numbers white citizens do experience more fatal shootings from police but the statistical analysis you claim isn't accurate. The key word I used and you used verbatim is "disproportionate", ie in relation to the proportion they are in society. Of course white citizens are shot more than black citizens, it's a fair conclusion I'm which there are more than 4x as many white citizens. Hence needing actual statistical analysis not raw numbers. You were wrong and your argument would benefit from being transparent about that fact.

I'm sorry if you think unconstitutional and unjust policing measures are able to be rationalized because they produce results. That's not how our Republic works and you are on the wrong side of history there. You don't get to ensnare citizens in that fashion and we shut down Stop and Frisk for very good reasons.

And I think you need to reassess your understandings of statistics and criminal justice. We don't apply group demographics as justification to police individuals. We use individual behavior to police individuals. What you described is dangerous to both individuals and therefore society at large.


----------



## Vanilla

Ray said:


> But the reason why it did isn't because of the agenda you're trying to push.


Maybe that is the disconnect here. I actually don't have an agenda here. I see a problem and I'm looking for solutions, but have no specific outcome other than people are people, and we should all treat each other that way. You might have an agenda that is driving you, and that might be where the block is here. But I have no agenda and I'm not trying to push anything.



Ray said:


> I see the racism, I've experienced it first hand. *But* you can't go around claiming everything that happens is race based.


Nobody is claiming that everything that happens is race based. I literally have not seen a single person, even the most extreme of the people out there, make that claim. So, you probably ought to move on from that one.

And I highlighted something above that needs to just stop.

"I know there are racist people, but..."

"I know we have problems, but..."

"I know Ahmed Aubrey is dead only because he is black, but..."

No "buts" anymore. Just stop. Hard stop. We have problems. There are issues that need to be addressed. We should ALL look for ways to contribute to a positive outcome to all this.

No buts, no qualifiers, just acknowledge. Some will refuse to do so, and as soon as you say "but..." it invalidates whatever you wrote before it. Hard stop. Let's figure this out and quit making excuses.


----------



## Ray

Vanilla said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the reason why it did isn't because of the agenda you're trying to push.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe that is the disconnect here. I actually don't have an agenda here. I see a problem and I'm looking for solutions, but have no specific outcome other than people are people, and we should all treat each other that way. You might have an agenda that is driving you, and that might be where the block is here. But I have no agenda and I'm not trying to push anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see the racism, I've experienced it first hand. *But* you can't go around claiming everything that happens is race based.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nobody is claiming that everything that happens is race based. I literally have not seen a single person, even the most extreme of the people out there, make that claim. So, you probably ought to move on from that one.
> 
> And I highlighted something above that needs to just stop.
> 
> "I know there are racist people, but..."
> 
> "I know we have problems, but..."
> 
> "I know Ahmed Aubrey is dead only because he is black, but..."
> 
> No "buts" anymore. Just stop. Hard stop. We have problems. There are issues that need to be addressed. We should ALL look for ways to contribute to a positive outcome to all this.
> 
> No buts, no qualifiers, just acknowledge. Some will refuse to do so, and as soon as you say "but..." it invalidates whatever you wrote before it. Hard stop. Let's figure this out and quit making excuses.
Click to expand...

Okay, no more buts, no more virtue signaling either. Rather than saying things need to change, provide us with solutions, please. I'm all ears. How do you stop people from being racist? How can we fix this? I see and hear a lot of demands for change but have yet to hear a single solution.


----------



## Lone_Hunter

backcountry said:


> *Odd that we can use tear gas on citizens despite it being a prohibited chemical weapons in warfare.


I think your exaggerating CN tear gas. I'm not about to look up the law of armed conflict (again, it's been too long), but CN tear gas has been used to quell riots, and for training purposes for years now. It's a non lethal irritant, and let me tell you, it is REALLY irritating. It will turn your nose into a facet, and make your eyes itch and water, and it will even make your skin feel like it's burning if you just freshly shaved, but it won't kill you, nor have any long lasting effects. A water hose in the face, a change of clothes, and 60 minutes or so of fresh air, and it's like nothing ever happened.


----------



## Kwalk3

Ray said:


> Okay, no more buts, no more virtue signaling either. Rather than saying things need to change, provide us with solutions, please. I'm all ears. How do you stop people from being racist? How can we fix this? I see and hear a lot of demands for change but have yet to hear a single solution.


Complex problem require nuanced solutions. I haven't seen anyone suggest they even have the answers to this problem. That shouldn't dissuade any of us from listening or being willing to say change is needed. There isn't a magic band-aid that we can slap on these wounds. The one thing we can all do is listen and self reflect. Any meaningful solution is going to be the result of everyone uniting and committing to being better to each other.


----------



## Vanilla

Ray said:


> I'm all ears.


That's good. That is the first step to the solutions you seek!

I won't even pretend like I know how to rid our country of hundreds of years of bias, oppression, and downright racist policies. But a journey of a million miles begins with one step.

Listening intently is a good first step.


----------



## RandomElk16

Went to bed 4 pages ago. Didn't catch up but saw a few things and I'm surprised it's still open lol.


----------



## gander311

Kwalk3 said:


> Not sure this is the moment in our history to be repeating the same narratives that have led up to this, or to be defending "stop and frisk."
> 
> This should be a moment for us to reflect, and realize that perhaps, even if we have looked at the data you reference, that there is something missing from the equation. I have heard, and at times repeated some of the same arguments, or at least just quietly accepted that it makes sense. It's been a way to sub-consciously push the problem from my shoulders back to the shoulders of those who it actually affects.
> 
> If someone, or in this case a large group of people says "this affects ME, this hurts ME," there's probably a reason for that. Maybe instead of trying to explain it away using cherry-picked statistics and anecdotes, we just listen? I haven't done a great job about that in the past as it pertains to this issue and many others.
> 
> We could all use a little more thoughtfulness and understanding. Sometimes that means just listening. I don't know the solution to this, but I do know it's not gonna get any better if we refuse to listen to those whose life experiences differ from our own.


This is where I'm at on this whole thing. I've had a lot of eye-opening, ugly realizations about myself in the last few days. I used to passively sit back and just be "okay" with how things were, knowing in my heart that I'm not racist, and I'm not raising my kids to be racist. Thoughts like, "I have black friends..." or "my daughter is 1/4 Hispanic.." put me at ease. Then falling back on numbers or having the statistics skewed in some way or another to make me feel more comfortable about it all. Then I could just say to myself, I'm not racist, I'm not part of the problem, so it's not my problem to fix. But I never stopped to think if there was a bigger problem underlying it all. An underlying issue that is a contributing factor in the some of the more apparent issues that arise.

That's all come crashing down on me recently. To the point I've teared up multiple times at my failure as a fellow human being. Why haven't I listened? Why have I quietly sat back and accepted how things are? And I'm ashamed to say it, why have I gotten bothered in some fashion when peaceful stands/comments/protests of other forms in the past have occurred?

The bottom line is that I am a white male, and I have privilege that I've never formally recognized before, or at least ignored in the past through different forms of justification. I'll never understand what it means to be a POC. And I wouldn't dare try. But I do know now that I haven't tried enough to be a truly loving fellow human. I haven't listened and given serious consideration to the pleas and concerns of my fellow man. I haven't stopped to fully try to see some of these systemic issues(and yes, they are systemic no matter what anybody has to say or justify otherwise) from another's point of view. Or ask myself how I can handle that situation differently.

A lot has changed in my life as I've gotten older, matured, and grown my view of the world around me. And now as a 41 year old I find even more in myself that needs to change, and change that is needed around me. How do we change that? I don't have the slightest clue how to tackle that huge of an issue. Like others have said here, that may take a generation or more to initiate that deep of a change. But I do know that I can change things about myself. About how I think of my fellow humans, and by truly caring and being sympathetic to very real problems that others face on a regular basis, that I don't even have to think about in my sheltered little world. I can try to be pro-active. I can try to be anti-racist instead of just "not racist". It's all so simple, and complicated at the same time, that I just don't know. But I know I'm going to try...


----------



## Ray

RandomElk16 said:


> Went to bed 4 pages ago. Didn't catch up but saw a few things and I'm surprised it's still open lol.


There's no reason to be surprised, just a few guys engaged in discussion. I have no beef with any of these fellas and I doubt they have beef with me. Conversation shouldn't be banned, should be welcomed.


----------



## backcountry

Lone_Hunter said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Odd that we can use tear gas on citizens despite it being a prohibited chemical weapons in warfare.
> 
> 
> 
> I think your exaggerating CN tear gas. I'm not about to look up the law of armed conflict (again, it's been too long), but CN tear gas has been used to quell riots, and for training purposes for years now. It's a non lethal irritant, and let me tell you, it is REALLY irritating. It will turn your nose into a facet, and make your eyes itch and water, and it will even make your skin feel like it's burning if you just freshly shaved, but it won't kill you, nor have any long lasting effects. A water hose in the face, a change of clothes, and 60 minutes or so of fresh air, and it's like nothing ever happened.
Click to expand...

No exaggeration, verifiable statement of fact. And your description explains why it's an obvious chemical weapon. US adopted the ban in battle more than two decades ago.

There are a lot of effective tools we ban. Ones that are inherently indiscriminate, which tear gas qualifies as, tend to be very controversial. A perfect example of its problematic use on civilians was the early clearing of peaceful protestors before curfew and without provocation yesterday in DC for Trump's walk. Peaceful citizens shouldn't be bombarded with chemical irritants for using their First Amendment rights. That should be an unlawful use of munitions by police.

It is non-lethal if used right. Not as easy to claim no lasting affects. It has well-documented potential for long term respiratory impacts for average citizens. Not exactly a great side effect during a pandemic of a respiratory virus. And for people with asthma it can extremely dangerous.

With an indiscriminate weapon used even more indiscriminately (just watch recent footage) it's not exactly a great tool for crowd control on peaceful protestors (and many have been) especially right now.


----------



## Kwalk3

gander311 said:


> This is where I'm at on this whole thing. I've had a lot of eye-opening, ugly realizations about myself in the last few days. I used to passively sit back and just be "okay" with how things were, knowing in my heart that I'm not racist, and I'm not raising my kids to be racist. Thoughts like, "I have black friends..." or "my daughter is 1/4 Hispanic.." put me at ease. Then falling back on numbers or having the statistics skewed in some way or another to make me feel more comfortable about it all. Then I could just say to myself, I'm not racist, I'm not part of the problem, so it's not my problem to fix. But I never stopped to think if there was a bigger problem underlying it all. An underlying issue that is a contributing factor in the some of the more apparent issues that arise.
> 
> That's all come crashing down on me recently. To the point I've teared up multiple times at my failure as a fellow human being. Why haven't I listened? Why have I quietly sat back and accepted how things are? And I'm ashamed to say it, why have I gotten bothered in some fashion when peaceful stands/comments/protests of other forms in the past have occurred?
> 
> The bottom line is that I am a white male, and I have privilege that I've never formally recognized before, or at least ignored in the past through different forms of justification. I'll never understand what it means to be a POC. And I wouldn't dare try. But I do know now that I haven't tried enough to be a truly loving fellow human. I haven't listened and given serious consideration to the pleas and concerns of my fellow man. I haven't stopped to fully try to see some of these systemic issues(and yes, they are systemic no matter what anybody has to say or justify otherwise) from another's point of view. Or ask myself how I can handle that situation differently.
> 
> A lot has changed in my life as I've gotten older, matured, and grown my view of the world around me. And now as a 41 year old I find even more in myself that needs to change, and change that is needed around me. How do we change that? I don't have the slightest clue how to tackle that huge of an issue. Like others have said here, that may take a generation or more to initiate that deep of a change. But I do know that I can change things about myself. About how I think of my fellow humans, and by truly caring and being sympathetic to very real problems that others face on a regular basis, that I don't even have to think about in my sheltered little world. I can try to be pro-active. I can try to be anti-racist instead of just "not racist". It's all so simple, and complicated at the same time, that I just don't know. But I know I'm going to try...


Sounds like we've had very similar epiphanies recently. All I can do is change how I view and approach things. I can listen. When someone says there's a problem, I can't just say "Well, actually...."

Just because I may not ever worry about being individually profiled because of who I am and the color of my skin, doesn't mean I shouldn't worry for those who live with that reality daily.

I've got a lot more wrestling to do with myself and my prior assumptions, but it's been encouraging to see some of the people I look up to in the hunting industry be willing to stand up and be supportive today.

I've seen a lot of similar reactions from people I'm close to. Compassion is the cure for a lot of what ails us right now.


----------



## Kwalk3

RandomElk16 said:


> Went to bed 4 pages ago. Didn't catch up but saw a few things and I'm surprised it's still open lol.


It's largely been an adult conversation and pretty civil. It does drive my OCD a little bonkers that the thread title is spelled incorrectly, but that's a me problem.


----------



## Lone_Hunter

Sounds like some of you are jumping on the SJW bandwagon.

Ill counter the white privilege narrative, with something entirely different.

I've been sayiing it for many years now. Someone asks me, "What are you? " or "What is your ethnicity?".

I say, AMERICAN. I'll even check the "other box" on forms and write it it.

People need to drop the stupid freaking hyphen, and group identity politics. They are as divisive as racism itself.


----------



## gander311

Lone_Hunter said:


> Sounds like some of you are jumping on the SJW bandwagon.


I don't feel like I'm being a social justice warrior. I didn't call out anybody else for their actions. If you read my post again there is a lot of "I" and "me" in there because I've realized things I want to improve in myself.


----------



## Kwalk3

Lone_Hunter said:


> Sounds like some of you are jumping on the SJW bandwagon.
> 
> Ill counter the white privilege narrative, with something entirely different.
> 
> I've been sayiing it for many years now. Someone asks me, "What are you? " or "What is your ethnicity?".
> 
> I say, AMERICAN. I'll even check the "other box" on forms and write it it.
> 
> People need to drop the stupid freaking hyphen, and group identity politics. They are as divisive as racism itself.


Lone,

I get what you're saying. Truly. I think what this is all about is working towards where we can say that we are all Americans and it actually means the same thing for everyone. Nobody is overlooked, unprotected, or unheard. Right now, the black community is telling us it doesn't mean the same thing to be African-American as it does to be a White-American(hyphens intended.)

Regarding the SJW thing, this conversation has largely avoided the buzzwords and overt partisanship because at it's core, this shouldn't be a partisan or even a political issue. Pejorative usage and connotations of "SJW" aside, social justice and equitable treatment of human beings is something all of us should be able to get behind.


----------



## backcountry

gander311 said:


> This is where I'm at on this whole thing. I've had a lot of eye-opening, ugly realizations about myself in the last few days. I used to passively sit back and just be "okay" with how things were, knowing in my heart that I'm not racist, and I'm not raising my kids to be racist. Thoughts like, "I have black friends..." or "my daughter is 1/4 Hispanic.." put me at ease. Then falling back on numbers or having the statistics skewed in some way or another to make me feel more comfortable about it all. Then I could just say to myself, I'm not racist, I'm not part of the problem, so it's not my problem to fix. But I never stopped to think if there was a bigger problem underlying it all. An underlying issue that is a contributing factor in the some of the more apparent issues that arise.
> 
> That's all come crashing down on me recently. To the point I've teared up multiple times at my failure as a fellow human being. Why haven't I listened? Why have I quietly sat back and accepted how things are? And I'm ashamed to say it, why have I gotten bothered in some fashion when peaceful stands/comments/protests of other forms in the past have occurred?


That has similarly happened to me but more so in past events. I was just lucky to have friends call some stuff out or educate me. All happenstance.

That said I grew up in an area where racism was more overt. Family members that ex-communicated kids for years for dating black men (took decades to move forward). KKK in counties my extended family lived in which were explained as "just tradition" and somehow not ideological. I definitely heard the N word a lot growing up. A ton of "jokes" and hideous stereotypes.

I never considered myself a racist or openly considered any race less than. Never considered my race better. But I definitely participated in stuff as a kid. I woke up one night literally sweating because I suddenly remembered a chant we did as young children. An awful, blatantly racist fight song about group violence. I only remember singing it once but that alone is a painful memory now and I have no doubt scarred the minority kids around us. And they were people we considered friends. I have no clue who taught us it as a child of that age doesn't create such a song on a whim. Sadly I can't erase the lyrics from memory. I have no doubt there were other moments in which I either participated unaware of meaning, like then, or unknowingly behaved different around minorities because of negative stereotypes.

I know of at least once when I was too cowardly in my early twenties to stand up for someone being racially harassed. I can only guess I missed many other opportunities. It wasn't until a decade or so ago that I even began to understand the important role of bystanders.

We've really just started touching the surface of the multigenerational racism our family knows happened and participated directly and/or indirectly in. But it's a tricky subject when your mother was a young student during mandated integration in the south and their family had black friends who entered through the backyard door, "for safety of their friends". But it's come up more over the years and we are learning to talk about it and move forward. At least my immediate family, plenty of extended family that still embrace some unfortunate beliefs about minorities.

I am sincerely lucky to have good people in my life who helped me move forward through that. It was uncomfortable, and often remains so, to say the least. It's never fun having to look at our behaviors and mistakes head on, even vague ones in hindsight that seemed all too normal at the time.


----------



## Lone_Hunter

Racism has been used as a cudgel so much for the last few years, the word has lost meaning and impact. The word has been devalued. The instant someone calls someone else racist, like say in the news, I tune out. Tired of hearing it.

That said, Ive been around enough to know that, no matter how hard some people try, they will NEVER stomp out racism entirely. It has always existed, and probably always will. It may not be as prevalent as it was in the past, but it will always exist to some degree. It is human nature to pre judge people, places, or things based on their face value. We all do it, the only difference is in degree, and to what we pre judge. Even black people, are racist. People seem to forget that.

Oh, and lets talk about racism overseas. Ohhhh boy, are some people in for a rude awakening on that one. The racism you encounter in the states, can't hold a candle to what exists over the pacific pond. You can't even compare the two. Can anyone here in the Continental United states legitimately claim they were denied service in any locale in anytime in recent memory based on their immutable characteristics? I can't make that claim here, but I sure as hell can say I was denied service in other countries because of my nationality. You won't find that here, but let me tell you, it exists. 

Comparatively, I'm starting to think this is self flagellation just to make people feel better about the situation. Human nature always has had it's ugly facets. Sad, but t rue.

And I still say drop the hyphen. All it does is emphasis differences, and that accomplishes nothing.


----------



## Vanilla

I actually think emphasizing differences can be a very positive and healthy thing. We are all different, why should we pretend we are not? 

It's the TREATING of people different based upon those differences that is the problem. 

I have no issue looking at my neighbor who speaks little English and acknowledging we are different. We still waive to each other every morning and have exchanged notes, etc. over the years. While I can't communicate much with them, they have been very kind and good neighbors. If you went and asked them, I'd hope they'd say we don't talk a lot because of some of our differences (IE, communication barrier) but they are our friends. I hope that is what they'd say. 

Nothing wrong with differences. Nothing wrong with acknowledging differences. It's the disparate treatment that becomes problematic. We should celebrate our differences, in my opinion. We could learn a lot from each other.


----------



## Ray

Lone_Hunter said:


> Racism has been used as a cudgel so much for the last few years, the word has lost meaning and impact. The word has been devalued. The instant someone calls someone else racist, like say in the news, I tune out. Tired of hearing it.
> 
> That said, Ive been around enough to know that, no matter how hard some people try, they will NEVER stomp out racism entirely. It has always existed, and probably always will. It may not be as prevalent as it was in the past, but it will always exist to some degree. It is human nature to pre judge people, places, or things based on their face value. We all do it, the only difference is in degree, and to what we pre judge. Even black people, are racist. People seem to forget that.
> 
> Oh, and lets talk about racism overseas. Ohhhh boy, are some people in for a rude awakening on that one. The racism you encounter in the states, can't hold a candle to what exists over the pacific pond. You can't even compare the two. Can anyone here in the Continental United states legitimately claim they were denied service in any locale in anytime in recent memory based on their immutable characteristics? I can't make that claim here, but I sure as hell can say I was denied service in other countries because of my nationality. You won't find that here, but let me tell you, it exists.
> 
> Comparatively, I'm starting to think this is self flagellation just to make people feel better about the situation. Human nature always has had it's ugly facets. Sad, but t rue.
> 
> And I still say drop the hyphen. All it does is emphasis differences, and that accomplishes nothing.


&#128076;&#128175;


----------



## Lone_Hunter

You don't unite a people by pointing out how they are different. You unite people by pointing out what they have in common. 
Last I'm going to say in this thread is the incident is tragic, and the results are stupid. 

Good day gentleman.


----------



## Kwalk3

Lone_Hunter said:


> You don't unite a people by pointing out how they are different. You unite people by pointing out what they have in common.
> Last I'm going to say in this thread is the incident is tragic, and the results are stupid.
> 
> Good day gentleman.


You also don't create true equality out of thin air by saying that everyone is equal. If there are disparities in how people feel and are treated, those things have to be reconciled before unity is truly an option.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Critter

What I like is the representatives that are saying that there should be reparations payments to those who were repressed. 

My big question is how do you determine just who gets these payments? Do they have to do a ancestry history going back to the 1860 to determine that their relatives at that time were repressed and in slavery? 

Then once they qualify how much do each of them get? A thousand dollars, ten thousand, twenty thousand? Then what happens once they have that money spent in a weeks time, do we give them some more because we didn't teach them how to handle money? 

It is a very slippery slope. 

As for equality, I lived in the south quite a bit during the early and mid 60's. I still remember the two drinking fountains and separate swimming pools. I had a friend who was black and when we went places I do remember him saying that he couldn't go there or into that store. We walked into a drug store one day to get a soda and the soda jerk would not serve him and told him to wait outside. 

We have come a long ways but we still have a long ways to go. But try being white in a black neighborhood. In quite a few of them you will be treated like what you stepped in out where the dog does his business.


----------



## Ray

Critter said:


> What I like is the representatives that are saying that there should be reparations payments to those who were repressed.
> 
> My big question is how do you determine just who gets these payments? Do they have to do a ancestry history going back to the 1860 to determine that their relatives at that time were repressed and in slavery?
> 
> Then once they qualify how much do each of them get? A thousand dollars, ten thousand, twenty thousand? Then what happens once they have that money spent in a weeks time, do we give them some more because we didn't teach them how to handle money?
> 
> It is a very slippery slope.
> 
> As for equality, I lived in the south quite a bit during the early and mid 60's. I still remember the two drinking fountains and separate swimming pools. I had a friend who was black and when we went places I do remember him saying that he couldn't go there or into that store. We walked into a drug store one day to get a soda and the soda jerk would not serve him and told him to wait outside.
> 
> We have come a long ways but we still have a long ways to go. But try being white in a black neighborhood. In quite a few of them you will be treated like what you stepped in out where the dog does his business.


You aren't kidding about that last part, I worked in the south for years in my 20's. Went to a bar one night in Amarillo, we were the only white guys in there, 8 of us total, night ended with us literally getting chased out, the entire bar stormed out after us. &#128514;

Hell, try being a white guy dating a black chick, you'll get all sorts of **** from her family and all sorts of **** from black people that don't even know you! To be fair, white people were weird about it too.. mostly just stare and watch, only ever had one old lady say something but still.. people just are the way they are, I suppose.

Reparations are absurd... where in the hell will the money even come from?!


----------



## backcountry

A little more virtue signaling from social justice warrior who understood identity politics is baked into our history:



> The voting rights bill will be the latest, and among the most important, in a long series of victories. But this victory-as Winston Churchill said of another triumph for freedom-"is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
> 
> That beginning is freedom; and the barriers to that freedom are tumbling down. Freedom is the right to share, share fully and equally, in American society-to vote, to hold a job, to enter a public place, to go to school. It is the right to be treated in every part of our national life as a person equal in dignity and promise to all others.
> 
> But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.
> 
> You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.
> 
> Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates.
> 
> This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> For what is justice?
> 
> It is to fulfill the fair expectations of man.
> 
> Thus, American justice is a very special thing. For, from the first, this has been a land of towering expectations. It was to be a nation where each man could be ruled by the common consent of all-enshrined in law, given life by institutions, guided by men themselves subject to its rule. And all-all of every station and origin-would be touched equally in obligation and in liberty.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> So, it is the glorious opportunity of this generation to end the one huge wrong of the American Nation and, in so doing, to find America for ourselves, with the same immense thrill of discovery which gripped those who first began to realize that here, at last, was a home for freedom.
> 
> All it will take is for all of us to understand what this country is and what this country must become.
> 
> The Scripture promises: "I shall light a candle of understanding in thine heart, which shall not be put out."
> 
> Together, and with millions more, we can light that candle of understanding in the heart of all America.
> 
> And, once lit, it will never again go out.


1965 Harvard Commencement Speech by LBJ . It's a new one to me because I just saw this video and was curious about the quote he uses:


----------



## backcountry

This what unity looks like

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/02/8683...ro-of-swann-st-who-sheltered-them-from-arrest


----------



## Ray

backcountry said:


> A little more virtue signaling from social justice warrior who understood identity politics is baked into our history:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The voting rights bill will be the latest, and among the most important, in a long series of victories. But this victory-as Winston Churchill said of another triumph for freedom-"is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
> 
> That beginning is freedom; and the barriers to that freedom are tumbling down. Freedom is the right to share, share fully and equally, in American society-to vote, to hold a job, to enter a public place, to go to school. It is the right to be treated in every part of our national life as a person equal in dignity and promise to all others.
> 
> But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.
> 
> You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.
> 
> Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates.
> 
> This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> For what is justice?
> 
> It is to fulfill the fair expectations of man.
> 
> Thus, American justice is a very special thing. For, from the first, this has been a land of towering expectations. It was to be a nation where each man could be ruled by the common consent of all-enshrined in law, given life by institutions, guided by men themselves subject to its rule. And all-all of every station and origin-would be touched equally in obligation and in liberty.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> So, it is the glorious opportunity of this generation to end the one huge wrong of the American Nation and, in so doing, to find America for ourselves, with the same immense thrill of discovery which gripped those who first began to realize that here, at last, was a home for freedom.
> 
> All it will take is for all of us to understand what this country is and what this country must become.
> 
> The Scripture promises: "I shall light a candle of understanding in thine heart, which shall not be put out."
> 
> Together, and with millions more, we can light that candle of understanding in the heart of all America.
> 
> And, once lit, it will never again go out.
> 
> 
> 
> 1965 Harvard Commencement Speech by LBJ . It's a new one to me because I just saw this video and was curious about the quote he uses:
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone here has a problem with equal rights, I haven't seen a single person post anything against black people. My posts were in regards to the violence that's occurring that you and Vanilla seem to be advocating for. I don't care what happened, it doesn't give people the right to shoot cops in the back of the head, it doesn't give them the right to burn people's home while they're inside, it doesn't give them the right to destroy people's livelihoods, it doesn't give them the right to run police officers over or kill people trying to protect their stores.

Everyone agrees what happened to mr. Floyd was murder and the officers involved need to be charged to the fullest extent of the law.

The violence that's occurring is plain wrong, there's nothing you can do or say to justify it, nothing


----------



## Ray

Below are just some of the disgusting atrocities to unfold. This isn't how you effect change, this just sets us all back

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lo...ring-protests-in-jacksonville/?outputType=amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpos...th-child-inside-block-firefighters-630126/amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nb...yd-protest-in-buffalo-speeds-off/2442583/?amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-woman-attacked-video-riots-looting.amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ktla.c...rge-floyd-many-of-them-african-americans/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/las-vegas-police-officer-shot-head-protests/

https://www.foxnews.com/us/david-dorn-st-louis-cop-killed-looting-son-message


----------



## Kwalk3

Ray said:


> Below are just some of the disgusting behavior being exhibited. This isn't how you effect change, this just sets us all back
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.lo...ring-protests-in-jacksonville/?outputType=amp
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpos...th-child-inside-block-firefighters-630126/amp
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nb...yd-protest-in-buffalo-speeds-off/2442583/?amp
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-woman-attacked-video-riots-looting.amp
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/ktla.c...rge-floyd-many-of-them-african-americans/amp/
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/las-vegas-police-officer-shot-head-protests/
> 
> https://www.foxnews.com/us/david-dorn-st-louis-cop-killed-looting-son-message


Now list the injustices that have affected black Americans....

No one here is suggesting that the violence and behaviors that have resulted in death and destruction are anything other than despicable.

We shouldn't use that as a distraction to further excuse ourselves from self-reflection and conversation about the root issue.


----------



## backcountry

Ray said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> A little more virtue signaling from social justice warrior who understood identity politics is baked into our history:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The voting rights bill will be the latest, and among the most important, in a long series of victories. But this victory-as Winston Churchill said of another triumph for freedom-"is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
> 
> That beginning is freedom; and the barriers to that freedom are tumbling down. Freedom is the right to share, share fully and equally, in American society-to vote, to hold a job, to enter a public place, to go to school. It is the right to be treated in every part of our national life as a person equal in dignity and promise to all others.
> 
> But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.
> 
> You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.
> 
> Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates.
> 
> This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> For what is justice?
> 
> It is to fulfill the fair expectations of man.
> 
> Thus, American justice is a very special thing. For, from the first, this has been a land of towering expectations. It was to be a nation where each man could be ruled by the common consent of all-enshrined in law, given life by institutions, guided by men themselves subject to its rule. And all-all of every station and origin-would be touched equally in obligation and in liberty.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> So, it is the glorious opportunity of this generation to end the one huge wrong of the American Nation and, in so doing, to find America for ourselves, with the same immense thrill of discovery which gripped those who first began to realize that here, at last, was a home for freedom.
> 
> All it will take is for all of us to understand what this country is and what this country must become.
> 
> The Scripture promises: "I shall light a candle of understanding in thine heart, which shall not be put out."
> 
> Together, and with millions more, we can light that candle of understanding in the heart of all America.
> 
> And, once lit, it will never again go out.
> 
> 
> 
> 1965 Harvard Commencement Speech by LBJ . It's a new one to me because I just saw this video and was curious about the quote he uses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think anyone here has a problem with equal rights, I haven't seen a single person post anything against black people. My posts were in regards to the violence that's occurring that you and Vanilla seem to be advocating for. I don't care what happened, it doesn't give people the right to shoot cops in the back of the head, it doesn't give them the right to burn people's home while they're inside, it doesn't give them the right to destroy people's livelihoods, it doesn't give them the right to run police officers over or kill people trying to protect their stores.
> 
> Everyone agrees what happened to mr. Floyd was murder and the officers involved need to be charged to the fullest extent of the law.
> 
> The violence that's occurring is plain wrong, there's nothing you can do or say to justify it, nothing
Click to expand...

A blatant misrepresentation to say "the violence that's occurring that you and Vanilla seem to be advocating for". You will not find one post from either of us that advocates the violence you describe.

And you completely missed the spirit and content of LBJ's speech if you think it was largely about "equal rights". He stated it was just the beginning and laid bear the challenge of doing more to make our society freer and more just.

Not a single person here has justified things like "shoot cops in the back of the head". I have seen a few people speaking to the context of what happens when citizens right to life is ignored in the face of overwhelming evidence but context isn't justification. There is a bright line between that and the strawman you just beat down.


----------



## Ray

backcountry said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> A little more virtue signaling from social justice warrior who understood identity politics is baked into our history:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The voting rights bill will be the latest, and among the most important, in a long series of victories. But this victory-as Winston Churchill said of another triumph for freedom-"is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
> 
> That beginning is freedom; and the barriers to that freedom are tumbling down. Freedom is the right to share, share fully and equally, in American society-to vote, to hold a job, to enter a public place, to go to school. It is the right to be treated in every part of our national life as a person equal in dignity and promise to all others.
> 
> But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.
> 
> You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.
> 
> Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates.
> 
> This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> For what is justice?
> 
> It is to fulfill the fair expectations of man.
> 
> Thus, American justice is a very special thing. For, from the first, this has been a land of towering expectations. It was to be a nation where each man could be ruled by the common consent of all-enshrined in law, given life by institutions, guided by men themselves subject to its rule. And all-all of every station and origin-would be touched equally in obligation and in liberty.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> So, it is the glorious opportunity of this generation to end the one huge wrong of the American Nation and, in so doing, to find America for ourselves, with the same immense thrill of discovery which gripped those who first began to realize that here, at last, was a home for freedom.
> 
> All it will take is for all of us to understand what this country is and what this country must become.
> 
> The Scripture promises: "I shall light a candle of understanding in thine heart, which shall not be put out."
> 
> Together, and with millions more, we can light that candle of understanding in the heart of all America.
> 
> And, once lit, it will never again go out.
> 
> 
> 
> 1965 Harvard Commencement Speech by LBJ . It's a new one to me because I just saw this video and was curious about the quote he uses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think anyone here has a problem with equal rights, I haven't seen a single person post anything against black people. My posts were in regards to the violence that's occurring that you and Vanilla seem to be advocating for. I don't care what happened, it doesn't give people the right to shoot cops in the back of the head, it doesn't give them the right to burn people's home while they're inside, it doesn't give them the right to destroy people's livelihoods, it doesn't give them the right to run police officers over or kill people trying to protect their stores.
> 
> Everyone agrees what happened to mr. Floyd was murder and the officers involved need to be charged to the fullest extent of the law.
> 
> The violence that's occurring is plain wrong, there's nothing you can do or say to justify it, nothing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A blatant misrepresentation to say "the violence that's occurring that you and Vanilla seem to be advocating for". You will not find one post from either of us that advocates the violence you describe.
> 
> And you completely missed the spirit and content of LBJ's speech if you think it was largely about "equal rights". He stated it was just the beginning and laid bear the challenge of doing more to make our society freer and more just.
> 
> Not a single person here has justified things like "shoot cops in the back of the head". I have seen a few people speaking to the context of what happens when citizens right to life is ignored in the face of overwhelming evidence but context isn't justification. There is a bright line between that and the strawman you just beat down.
Click to expand...

Go back through the back and forth, you openly advocated for the riots taking place, something about peaceful protests not yielding results.


----------



## backcountry

Ray said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ray said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> A little more virtue signaling from social justice warrior who understood identity politics is baked into our history:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The voting rights bill will be the latest, and among the most important, in a long series of victories. But this victory-as Winston Churchill said of another triumph for freedom-"is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
> 
> That beginning is freedom; and the barriers to that freedom are tumbling down. Freedom is the right to share, share fully and equally, in American society-to vote, to hold a job, to enter a public place, to go to school. It is the right to be treated in every part of our national life as a person equal in dignity and promise to all others.
> 
> But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.
> 
> You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.
> 
> Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates.
> 
> This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> For what is justice?
> 
> It is to fulfill the fair expectations of man.
> 
> Thus, American justice is a very special thing. For, from the first, this has been a land of towering expectations. It was to be a nation where each man could be ruled by the common consent of all-enshrined in law, given life by institutions, guided by men themselves subject to its rule. And all-all of every station and origin-would be touched equally in obligation and in liberty.
> 
> &#8230;
> 
> So, it is the glorious opportunity of this generation to end the one huge wrong of the American Nation and, in so doing, to find America for ourselves, with the same immense thrill of discovery which gripped those who first began to realize that here, at last, was a home for freedom.
> 
> All it will take is for all of us to understand what this country is and what this country must become.
> 
> The Scripture promises: "I shall light a candle of understanding in thine heart, which shall not be put out."
> 
> Together, and with millions more, we can light that candle of understanding in the heart of all America.
> 
> And, once lit, it will never again go out.
> 
> 
> 
> 1965 Harvard Commencement Speech by LBJ . It's a new one to me because I just saw this video and was curious about the quote he uses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think anyone here has a problem with equal rights, I haven't seen a single person post anything against black people. My posts were in regards to the violence that's occurring that you and Vanilla seem to be advocating for. I don't care what happened, it doesn't give people the right to shoot cops in the back of the head, it doesn't give them the right to burn people's home while they're inside, it doesn't give them the right to destroy people's livelihoods, it doesn't give them the right to run police officers over or kill people trying to protect their stores.
> 
> Everyone agrees what happened to mr. Floyd was murder and the officers involved need to be charged to the fullest extent of the law.
> 
> The violence that's occurring is plain wrong, there's nothing you can do or say to justify it, nothing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A blatant misrepresentation to say "the violence that's occurring that you and Vanilla seem to be advocating for". You will not find one post from either of us that advocates the violence you describe.
> 
> And you completely missed the spirit and content of LBJ's speech if you think it was largely about "equal rights". He stated it was just the beginning and laid bear the challenge of doing more to make our society freer and more just.
> 
> Not a single person here has justified things like "shoot cops in the back of the head". I have seen a few people speaking to the context of what happens when citizens right to life is ignored in the face of overwhelming evidence but context isn't justification. There is a bright line between that and the strawman you just beat down.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go back through the back and forth, you openly advocated for the riots taking place, something about peaceful protests not yielding results.
Click to expand...

No, I didn't. Do the work and support your claim or admit you were wrong. You just accused me of something pretty heinous and it's a basic expectation that you have evidence when saying such things.

And when you do the work and look back I think you'll see you owe me a very public apology.


----------



## Ray

backcountry said:


> No, I didn't. Do the work and support your claim or admit you were wrong. You just accused me of something pretty heinous and it's a basic expectation that you have evidence when saying such things.
> 
> And when you do the work and look back I think you'll see you owe me a very public apology.


I don't owe you a single thing, you'll get no such apology. when I'm off work I'll go back through, thoroughly. Condoning is advocating, coming up with reasons/excuses for the destruction isn't doing anyone any good.


----------



## backcountry

Ray said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn't. Do the work and support your claim or admit you were wrong. You just accused me of something pretty heinous and it's a basic expectation that you have evidence when saying such things.
> 
> And when you do the work and look back I think you'll see you owe me a very public apology.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't owe you a single thing, you'll get no such apology. when I'm off work I'll go back through, thoroughly. Condoning is advocating, coming up with reasons/excuses for the destruction isn't doing anyone any good.
Click to expand...

It would be pretty unfortunate if you are unwilling to apologise when flagrantly misrepresenting ideas and and claiming someone supports violence, especially as abhorrent of behavior as you stated. And I NEVER condoned or advocated for violence.


----------



## brisket

Kwalk3 said:


> It's largely been an adult conversation and pretty civil. It does drive my OCD a little bonkers that the thread title is spelled incorrectly, but that's a me problem.


Which drives you more bonkers, the missing 'e' or the extra 'l'?


----------



## Jedidiah

You guys are in here talking about protesters when the real topic is rioters. Separate and different things. I would go as far as to say at least 90% of the people breaking, beating, and looting are actually just unemployed 20-somethings of every race but black with zero racial motivation at all. Watch the video of the people flipping the cop car in Salt Lake and the people that guy drew his bow on, you're not going to find hardly any black people. Take a look at the videos on this page, it's just hoodlums breaking and stealing:

https://www.insider.com/white-prote...-property-endangering-black-protesters-2020-6

There isn't any more protest here, it's just kids stealing stuff and hurting people.


----------



## backcountry

I can't speak to SLC but there is still a ton of peaceful non-violent protests happening across the country. In fact we have protests across the world happening in solidarity for our citizens.

Today the National Guard laid down shields at the statehouse despite riots the night before.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...-lay-down-riot-shields-at-protesters-request/

Hundreds to thousands laid on the ground in silence Saturday for the amount of time Floyd had a knee on his neck before dying.

100+ people protested peacefully in Cedar Sunday.

According to religious observers it was a peaceful protest around St Joseph's before they were tear gassed 20 minutes before curfew and the POTUS's impromptu photo op.

Citizens continue to protests peacefully in predominantly black regions like Louisiana and Mississippi. Heck, the police took a knee and virtue signaled with the protestors in Baton Rouge despite them using the interstate on their path:

https://www.wwltv.com/mobile/articl...i-10/289-0ecd3a24-bec3-42ae-ba73-1e19dc425443

Peaceful outside Jacksonville courthouse yesterday

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local...duval-county-courthouse-for-peaceful-protest/


----------



## Jedidiah

You're right, I was wrong about my last statement in that post and it's good to see there are still meaningful demonstrations going on. I'm still going to say the rioters and the protesters are different, separate things though.


----------



## backcountry

Indeed. And an issue with them happening simultaneously across the country is the riots pollute the peaceful protests. Non-violent protests or direct action are, unfortunately, easily overshadowed by any violence nearby.

I stopped protesting almost two decades ago because even then I witnessed agitators literally on the sidelines looking for an opportunity to catalyze violence. It muddles the entire situation and can directly impact any negotiations or goals from the citizens peacefully trying to create change.

I find hope in seeing footage of protestors helping police apprehend "Black Bloc" like anarchist in the last week.


----------



## MadHunter

WOW! As someone that by societal classification belongs to a minorty group I find this topic fascinating. From that perspective I can also tell you that you are all wrong and that you are all also right. This issue is a sharp double edge sword we are trying to sheath by grabbing by the blade and expecting not to get cut. I am going to leave it there and call it a day. I don't want to be the cause of this thread being shut down.

The solutions to this needs to be applied from all sides of the issue and there are a lot of sides to this. Until we are able to see and understand that; we will not be any closer to a resolution.

Peace out everyone. Love each other and treat each other with dignity and respect.


----------



## Kwalk3

MadHunter said:


> Love each other and treat each other with dignity and respect.


The crux


----------



## backcountry

A beautiful, moving example of moral courage and true leadership.



> I have watched this week's unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words "Equal Justice Under Law" are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand-one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values-our values as people and our values as a nation.


General Mattis, today

I suggest everyone read his entire piece as it's a call to our better angels but know it isn't subtle in it's criticisms.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/03...n-trumps-handling-of-nationwide-protests.html


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## Ray

MadHunter said:


> WOW! As someone that by societal classification belongs to a minorty group I find this topic fascinating. From that perspective I can also tell you that you are all wrong and that you are all also right. This issue is a sharp double edge sword we are trying to sheath by grabbing by the blade and expecting not to get cut. I am going to leave it there and call it a day. I don't want to be the cause of this thread being shut down.
> 
> The solutions to this needs to be applied from all sides of the issue and there are a lot of sides to this. Until we are able to see and understand that; we will not be any closer to a resolution.
> 
> Peace out everyone. Love each other and treat each other with dignity and respect.


Agreed, there are a ton of underlying issues that no one knows how to solve. It's not just up to white folks and black folks to fix, it's not something the government can step in and fix either. There's no simple solution. Perhaps true accountability across the board will help.. but then who will hold people accountable? The government? No thanks.


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## Vanilla

Wait...I am advocating for violence? If I said that I am in favor of violent protests, it was certainly not intentional. I don’t think I said that, but maybe I had too many Mtn Dew Zeros before posting one time?

Some of my very close personal friends you’ll see on the front lines trying to deal with these violent outbursts. I don’t condone them, agree with them, or advocate for them. 

I understand why they happen. That is not saying I like them. I did cite our revolution, and I do wonder how that would have been labeled and discussed if online forums and social media existed at the time. Could you imagine? And we view those folks universally as heroes, and rightfully so. So when does one violent protest deserve praise and one deserve condemnation? I guess we all have a bit of hypocrisy in us on this one, when we start peeling back layers. 

Ray is right that the answers on this one are not easy. That doesn’t mean we should stop trying.


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## Ray

Vanilla said:


> Wait...I am advocating for violence? If I said that I am in favor of violent protests, it was certainly not intentional. I don't think I said that, but maybe I had too many Mtn Dew Zeros before posting one time?
> 
> Some of my very close personal friends you'll see on the front lines trying to deal with these violent outbursts. I don't condone them, agree with them, or advocate for them.
> 
> I understand why they happen. That is not saying I like them. I did cite our revolution, and I do wonder how that would have been labeled and discussed if online forums and social media existed at the time. Could you imagine? And we view those folks universally as heroes, and rightfully so. So when does one violent protest deserve praise and one deserve condemnation? I guess we all have a bit of hypocrisy in us on this one, when we start peeling back layers.
> 
> Ray is right that the answers on this one are not easy. That doesn't mean we should stop trying.


No, I misspoke, went back through and read everything again. My apologies.

I just need to make sure I raise my boys right, so they're part of the solution and they don't ever feel like they're at a disadvantage because of their skin. I'm trying to teach them that they get to dictate their future and to be champions, not victims


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## Vanilla

Ray said:


> I just need to make sure I raise my boys right, so they're part of the solution and they don't ever feel like they're at a disadvantage because of their skin. I'm trying to teach them that they get to dictate their future and to be champions, not victims


Nothing wrong with this! I love it, actually. Tell them to fight for what they rightfully deserve, and we'll be right there with them.

I'm trying to raise my daughters to do the same way. Maybe not to the same extent, but women have suffered similar roadblocks in our country, and these girls are going to be wrecking machines for this world! They are going to be strong women that are intelligent, speak their minds, and stand up for what is right. They are being taught to be powerful forces for good and not to let anyone tell them otherwise. They will also hopefully respect differences and treat everyone with respect and love regardless of differences. Not to get all religious here, but that golden rule is a good one and would go a long ways.

Not race related, but we have a neighbor with Down syndrome. He regularly comes to visit us and while my kids were curious in the beginning, he is just one of the neighbors now. They love him and even more so, he loves us. We're lucky. The black thing has not been an issue for my kids as they have black cousins and we're very close as an extended family, so they've never known anything different. They are just family and they are trying to figure out what all this racism talk is about. Comforting in one aspect, but still have work to do on our little world.

Well, that's my world.


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## Catherder

I have gone back and forth on whether to comment on this thread, but I guess I will. My main hesitation in commenting is writing a couple paragraphs would not give the topic sufficient treatment for the complex issue it is. Nevertheless, here goes. 

First, I would like to compliment the local law enforcement that were out on Saturday. In very difficult circumstances, and the cameras rolling, they acted and performed professionally and stayed in control of the situation as best as possible. Likewise, I would like to also compliment the protest organizers who from available evidence made every effort to keep the protesters on message and were genuinely saddened when some violence did pop up. While unnerving in the moment, the truth is Salt Lake City sustained very little damage compared to many other big cities (2 vehicles, (one from sheer idiocy by bow and arrow guy) some broken windows, tagging, very limited looting) and most of the mess was quickly cleaned up by the next day. Things have been pretty peaceful since. 

The issue is more complex and personal to me because one of my daughters is black. Before we adopted her, black and minority issues were something that I don't think I was ever antagonistic towards, but they were certainly a "them" issue not an "us" issue. When something involves your own child, it becomes an "us" issue. Nevertheless, I don't think I fully appreciated how much differential policing (both real and perceived) affects the lives of those affected until recently. The George Floyd incident was the topper. It is inconceivable that a public execution could take place on a public street, but there it was. No parent would want their child to be subjected to anything close to that. It helped me understand why the protesters were motivated as they were and what their message was about. It brought the demand for fair policing in a new light and reinforced that it is a basic constitutional right. 

I may also have become more sensitized to the issue from 2 incidents of pretty blatant racism here in the county, incidents that I never would have dreamed would happen here. One involved the targeting of adoptive parents of a black child, just like us. The effects become cumulative. 


All that said, our society would careen into chaos without the police. These times prove more than ever that we really need and are dependent on good cops. I am definitely heartened by examples of understanding and solidarity between many of the citizens protesting and the police on duty. However, the police are the servants of the public. They do not make the laws, and are accountable to the municipal elected officials for their actions. Perhaps some of the things that have brought about protest has been allowed consciously or unconsciously by the larger public and/or the elected bosses in city hall. If the public demands that policing be as equitable as possible, it is more likely to happen. Holding elected officials accountable is also a good way to make sure we get the police protection we want and deserve. (Full disclosure, I have a brother in law enforcement) 

Finally, as others have said, be kind to one another and as "mad" said, treat others with dignity and respect. It will help us all get through these tough times together.


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## Ray

Catherder said:


> I have gone back and forth on whether to comment on this thread, but I guess I will. My main hesitation in commenting is writing a couple paragraphs would not give the topic sufficient treatment for the complex issue it is. Nevertheless, here goes.
> 
> First, I would like to compliment the local law enforcement that were out on Saturday. In very difficult circumstances, and the cameras rolling, they acted and performed professionally and stayed in control of the situation as best as possible. Likewise, I would like to also compliment the protest organizers who from available evidence made every effort to keep the protesters on message and were genuinely saddened when some violence did pop up. While unnerving in the moment, the truth is Salt Lake City sustained very little damage compared to many other big cities (2 vehicles, (one from sheer idiocy by bow and arrow guy) some broken windows, tagging, very limited looting) and most of the mess was quickly cleaned up by the next day. Things have been pretty peaceful since.
> 
> The issue is more complex and personal to me because one of my daughters is black. Before we adopted her, black and minority issues were something that I don't think I was ever antagonistic towards, but they were certainly a "them" issue not an "us" issue. When something involves your own child, it becomes an "us" issue. Nevertheless, I don't think I fully appreciated how much differential policing (both real and perceived) affects the lives of those affected until recently. The George Floyd incident was the topper. It is inconceivable that a public execution could take place on a public street, but there it was. No parent would want their child to be subjected to anything close to that. It helped me understand why the protesters were motivated as they were and what their message was about. It brought the demand for fair policing in a new light and reinforced that it is a basic constitutional right.
> 
> I may also have become more sensitized to the issue from 2 incidents of pretty blatant racism here in the county, incidents that I never would have dreamed would happen here. One involved the targeting of adoptive parents of a black child, just like us. The effects become cumulative.
> 
> All that said, our society would careen into chaos without the police. These times prove more than ever that we really need and are dependent on good cops. I am definitely heartened by examples of understanding and solidarity between many of the citizens protesting and the police on duty. However, the police are the servants of the public. They do not make the laws, and are accountable to the municipal elected officials for their actions. Perhaps some of the things that have brought about protest has been allowed consciously or unconsciously by the larger public and/or the elected bosses in city hall. If the public demands that policing be as equitable as possible, it is more likely to happen. Holding elected officials accountable is also a good way to make sure we get the police protection we want and deserve. (Full disclosure, I have a brother in law enforcement)
> 
> Finally, as others have said, be kind to one another and as "mad" said, treat others with dignity and respect. It will help us all get through these tough times together.


Well put, good sir. You worded that beautifully, I'm glad you put your two cents in, I believe we're all the better for it, I know I am.

I know I can be an ass with things, especially when I get worked up. As a father of children with African heritage, I get defensive of certain things. Mainly, I don't want them to ever use it as an excuse for not being able to accomplish something, or to use it as a crutch in life. I don't want them to feel that they're doomed before they even start something, or that they'll never get a fair shake.

I want them to know, without a shadow of a doubt that they're capable of accomplishing any **** thing they want, so long as they're the hardest workers in the room and earn it.

This is America damnit, the greatest country/civilization to ever exist, I truly believe that, even with all this bull we've seen over the past few years.. if they can't make it here, they can't make it anywhere.

Vanilla, that about sums up any fathers hopes and dreams, for your children to develop into a better human than you could ever hope to become.


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## johnnycake

A friend of mine wrote this op-ed that was in the Tribune yesterday. This is an excellent idea in my opinion.

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/comm...ic7eeUAUJUqFDsBKRwcwrRwyN75ITaSIAGL9GjqW55PJo


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## Vanilla

johnnycake said:


> A friend of mine wrote this op-ed that was in the Tribune yesterday. This is an excellent idea in my opinion.
> 
> https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/comm...ic7eeUAUJUqFDsBKRwcwrRwyN75ITaSIAGL9GjqW55PJo


Interesting perspective from a very conservative leaning prosecutor, for sure. There are other groups pushing for a "duty to intervene" requirement as well. If there ever was a situation that highlighted a need for such action, it was George Floyd.


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## MadHunter

Ray said:


> Well put, good sir. You worded that beautifully, I'm glad you put your two cents in, I believe we're all the better for it, I know I am.
> 
> I know I can be an ass with things, especially when I get worked up. As a father of children with African heritage, I get defensive of certain things. Mainly, I don't want them to ever use it as an excuse for not being able to accomplish something, or to use it as a crutch in life. I don't want them to feel that they're doomed before they even start something, or that they'll never get a fair shake.
> 
> I want them to know, without a shadow of a doubt that they're capable of accomplishing any **** thing they want, so long as they're the hardest workers in the room and earn it.
> 
> This is America damnit, the greatest country/civilization to ever exist, I truly believe that, even with all this bull we've seen over the past few years.. if they can't make it here, they can't make it anywhere.
> 
> Vanilla, that about sums up any fathers hopes and dreams, for your children to develop into a better human than you could ever hope to become.


I was going to be done with my original post and just read the rest as it came in but something struck a cord and struck it hard.

This! (marked in red)

This is something that we need to educate our children on relentlessly. In order for others to respect us we need to respect ourselves first. The most difficult thing that we have to do as minorities/ethic groups or whatever tag we have on us, is accept that we are different, truth is so if everyone else. But different does not mean we are not equal under the law and under god(if are so inclined to believ in him). We all have an inherent respnsibility to conduct ourselves, our lives, with honor, dignity, pride and integrity. It is only untill we do this that we can demand that others treat us with the same traits. We have to admit to ourselves that our condition can only be changed by ourselves and that nothing should be handed to us; as if our wthnicity, background or skin color was a crutch. We are capable of anything we set our minds to and work for. Teaching our shildren that and having them understand and more difficultly, live by it is an uphill task that we must be relentless on. One of my dad's bits of wisdom to me was "He who want's a great nation needs to raise great children first". For some of us it will be harder to do, but we can do it and by god we will.

I mourne the tragic death of George Floyd. My hope is that from the ashes of the flames it ignited we come out a more united and stronger nation because we became a more united and stronger people.

TOTP to you all!


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## backcountry

One of the great lessons of non-violent protest, or direct action, is that it exposes the disproportionate violence of the state. It's happening right before our eyes. It doesn't mean the majority of the police are violent, I believe the opposite, but it exposes plain as day how easily it can become normalized.

Here is another unfortunate example of how police agencies needs
to include policy like Johnnycake linked. It's not a pleasant video.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268717861641564160
Watch near second eight in which an officer bends down (to help?) but is physically redirected by a fellow officer. This is how the opposite of what the article calls for is subtly reinforced.

People have asked what solutions might exist? De-escalation training is paramount. Moments like this and Floyd can be avoided with different training. As someone else stated, we should demand that be a priority from leadership and create it top down .


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## johnnycake

The other solution I like is to start using police pension funds to pay all/some of the civil damages that get awarded from police brutality law suits


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## backcountry

I'll be honest that my initial response to that is to cringe. 

Can you explain how that would be legal and just? I've just been so ingrained to resist group consequences like that. 

I do have to say it's beyond ironic for lawsuits to be paid out of funds collected from the very citizens aggrieved. 

I'm finding myself cringing a lot lately. I can't sincerely see how the "defund" movement works either despite tons of people I respect calling for it. I can't understand how people have already made this partisan even though it seemed inevitable in our current environment. 

But to be fully honest I don't understand a lot right now.


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## Critter

johnnycake said:


> The other solution I like is to start using police pension funds to pay all/some of the civil damages that get awarded from police brutality law suits


So we are going to punish all for the actions of a few?


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## brisket

Critter said:


> So we are going to punish all for the actions of a few?


That already happens when it comes from the taxpayer, no?


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## Critter

brisket said:


> That already happens when it comes from the taxpayer, no?


The taxpayer is always punished along with the others that have nothing to do with the law enforcement for the city or county.


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## johnnycake

One thing that funding damage awards for police brutality suits from police pension accounts would do is create a direct financial incentive for every officer to step in and prevent/stop an excessive use of force. Currently, the taxpayers already pay for the police officers salaries, pensions, and for any civil damages on top of that. This would shift a portion of that third-dip from the taxpayers funds back onto the cost-causers. 

It is frankly absurd that the taxpayers have the privilege of paying for the damages as a result of illegal actions by police officers against the citizens, with zero financial impact on the department/organization/etc. that perpetrated the bad acts or failed to prevent them. True, the majority of police officers are not the problem in direct acts of brutality/excessive force. But, as things currently stand there is little to no incentive for the "good" cops to intervene against the "bad" cops. In general, laws are not required for the majority of people--laws and consequences are enacted to prevent the few bad actors that choose to not play nice in society's sandbox.


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## backcountry

Threading that needle would be tough but I understand the logic. I still cringe but have to recognize change is never comfortable.

Sounds like SCOTUS is looking at qualified immunity in their weekly review. I'm not holding my breathe as even if they choose to "amend" such protections I'm not sure the compromise will be manageable for a long while.


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## Vanilla

You have a much better chance pushing through a criminal penalty for not stepping in than for utilizing pensions to pay out lawsuits. There are property interests in earned pensions. Good luck on that one.


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## Ray

Critter said:


> johnnycake said:
> 
> 
> 
> The other solution I like is to start using police pension funds to pay all/some of the civil damages that get awarded from police brutality law suits
> 
> 
> 
> So we are going to punish all for the actions of a few?
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better, Critter


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## johnnycake

Vanilla said:


> You have a much better chance pushing through a criminal penalty for not stepping in than for utilizing pensions to pay out lawsuits. There are property interests in earned pensions. Good luck on that one.


Oh I agree that it would be a challenging thing to accomplish. But conceptually, I like it.


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## Critter

One of the problems that I see with the police force is that once disciplinary action is takes against a officer and he is either suspended or fired they appeal the verdict and most of the time they get their jobs back along with all of their back pay. 

While I am in Colorado and don't see what is happening in Utah other than a few news articles that I read, I have seen it way too often where there is a problem with excessive force and the officer that is involved is fired and a year later he has his job back. I have seen this more than once with the Denver PD and Sheriffs office. 

While I have no idea of what goes on in the officers appeal hearing I think that something is very wrong with it when a officer nearly or does kill someone, looses his job, and then gets it back. Perhaps it is because the city and counties don't want to fight it, but I have no idea. 

There are always going to be bad apples in the basket. With all the processes that they have to find them and weed them out they still make it through to be allowed to pack a firearm and have a badge pinned to their shirts. 

I can't wait for these cities that are looking at defending or are going to restructure their police force to find out that no matter what they do they are going to have those few that should never of made it through the processes that are in place to eliminate them. 

As for the protest, I agree with them....something needs to be done and with the protest they are making their voices heard in about the only way that a group can. Yes, you can go to meetings but most times all the ones officiating there just nod their heads and say that something needs to be done. Well now thousands are demanding that something be done and those at the head of the table are finally listening. 

The vandalism, looting, and other things that are being done in the name of the protest is just putting a black eye on those protesters that want change. But what can they do when it is mob rule.


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## Vanilla

johnnycake said:


> Oh I agree that it would be a challenging thing to accomplish. But conceptually, I like it.


Challenging to get the support to pass the bill, but nigh to impossible to survive the law suit that followed if the law did pass.

I just don't see a way that the concept is legal to actually do.

Critter, the biggest reason police officers appeal and get their jobs back after being fired is because the department didn't follow the law and proper procedures in terminating the employee. It's rarely about whether what the officer did was right or wrong, and almost always about "did you follow the proper procedures" along the way.

My biggest beef in all government employment is "leaders" are not willing to hold people accountable for the little things, and so when a bigger thing arrives, there is no paper trail of what has happened in the past. If it ain't written down, it didn't happen. Unfortunately, for way too long, that is how police departments have operated. High levels of accountability will create massive reduction in morale to begin with for those that are not used to it, but that will change when the culture is changed. And a culture change is needed across the board.


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## backcountry

Increase accountability and therefore training. Prioritize deescalation in more situations.

But for that logic to work we need to do the opposite of what many are advocating elsewhere... increase funding and pay. Higher expectations and demanding a higher threshold of accountability normally requires higher income. Not to mention we know policing does involve risk; risk that isn't always fairly compensated to begin with.

I also think we need more officers directly in communities interacting with the local citizens. That requires more officers and higher budgets as well. But there is good evidence that we as people act with greater restraint when we actually know or recognize each other. 

I also think the article had a great idea and agree that for it to work there has to be top down culture and policy change for it to be viable.


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## Critter

Vanilla said:


> Critter, the biggest reason police officers appeal and get their jobs back after being fired is because the department didn't follow the law and proper procedures in terminating the employee. It's rarely about whether what the officer did was right or wrong, and almost always about "did you follow the proper procedures" along the way.
> 
> .


And that right there is one of the big problems.

It is almost like the upper echelons screw it up on purpose just so that there can be a appeal

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## Vanilla

Critter said:


> And that right there is one of the big problems.
> 
> It is almost like the upper echelons screw it up on purpose just so that there can be a appeal
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


I don't think it's intentional, at least not in the vast majority of cases. Most bosses do not want to be the bad guy on little infractions here and there along the way. Even in the private sector this is not something most people enjoy doing.

But there are some lines of work where high levels of accountability are necessary for success of the system. Small mistakes by air traffic controllers could result in a crap ton of deaths. There is very little margin for error. Police work is the same. I certainly don't expect police officers to be perfect. I still think they are allowed to make good faith mistakes in their line of work. It's the bad faith mistakes we have to address. But sometimes you can't do anything with them if there isn't a record, because they are (mostly) merit employees.


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## middlefork

It seems to me that POST meets a couple of times a year at least and deals with the bad apples.

Suspension or revocation of POST certification is the equivalent of being un hire-able.

I don't know the exact process but they certainly act on a bunch of different transgressions.


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## Vanilla

middlefork said:


> It seems to me that POST meets a couple of times a year at least and deals with the bad apples.
> 
> Suspension or revocation of POST certification is the equivalent of being un hire-able.
> 
> I don't know the exact process but they certainly act on a bunch of different transgressions.


In theory...

Up until this year there has been a pretty common practice of an officer that is under IA for a serious offense to resign before completion of the IA. That resignation would terminate the IA as that person is no longer an employee, and without an IA determination there was no requirement to report to POST. The effect of that is bad apples jumping to new departments with the new department not knowing what happened at the prior place. I wish this wasn't as common as it was, but it happened quite a bit.

This year the legislature passed a law that if an officer resigns in the middle of an IA for conduct that would be required to report to POST if a determination was made, the department must report it to POST anyway even before the determination either way was made. This is a very good law, in my opinion.

Ultimately POST is going to have to step up their game with officers, but that doesn't fix societal issues on a larger scale. Let's not forget Ahmed Arbery was not killed by police. I'm not willing to lay all the blame for mistreatment of blacks at the feet of our police, even if we're just talking about the few bad apples.


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## backcountry

Indeed. I think all of us have work to do in ourselves and our communities on this issue. I don't see any way of escaping that responsibility. And how we create and define community is a huge aspect of that change.


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## backcountry

Whoever had "french fire fighters with Joker face paint light themselves on fire" on their 2020 Bingo Card please come to the front desk to collect your prize

https://metro.co.uk/2020/01/28/french-firefighters-set-alight-start-fighting-police-12139804/


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## Vanilla

Well that is a new spin on the ever-present rivalry between police and fire.


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## backcountry

I didn't QC date as it's back in January. 

Management will still honor bingo winners though as it's still part of the 2020 Went of the Rails collector set.

*I honestly didn't know there was tension. The only firefighter I know seems to find solidarity with police. Learn something new everyday.


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## Vanilla

backcountry said:


> *I honestly didn't know there was tension. The only firefighter I know seems to find solidarity with police. Learn something new everyday.


It's more like a sibling rivalry than a hate filled rivalry. There is much love and respect, and a ton of competition between them.


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