# Common misconceptions about Utah hunting



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I think there are a lot of misconceptions about Utah hunting out there (I have had my share)--I see them a lot on MM but I don't post there. Here are two that I see a lot:

#1:
That the 200 expo tags come from the non resident pool or that the nonresidents odds are worse because of the expo tags. The expo rules state that the expo takes 200 tags from the total number of available tags and nonresidents get a small amount of those tags at the expo that they only can put in for. In the state draw nonresidents get 10% of the tags plain and simple. Residents are the ones that give up the majority of those 200 tags to the expo=> (180 resident tags compared to 20 non resident tags if there were no expo)

#2:
That the youth or seniors get 20% or 30% of Limited Entry tags. The youth do get a percentage of tags in the general deer draw but they get no preferential treatment in the limited entry drawing. I had a guy at work that thought this and I informed him otherwise--he did not believe me and called the DWR--he now knows.

so what other misconceptions and misinformation do you see floating around?

also if I am wrong about my two statements above please prove me wrong--I don't want to be misinformed!


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Actually..... Youth and seniors do get a percentage of the limited entry Management tags on the Pauns and Henry Mtns.

I have people tell me they won't know what to do if they draw their OIL tag and a limited entry. Can only draw one or the other, not both.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I personally believe that the reason that seniors draw more LE tags on the Pauns and Henry's is that they have been pouting in for so long that they have the maximum number of bonus points. I know that I didn't believe the number of hunters that were over the age of 60 and even 70 that drew out for bison a few years ago when my brother in law did and he was 68 when he finally drew a tag.


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## deerlove (Oct 20, 2010)

How the number ONE misconception. The convention RAISES $ for wildlife??


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

deerlove said:


> The convention RAISES $ for wildlife??


Are you talking about the expo/convention tags? You're correct on that point. One of the biggest misconceptions today is that we know where the money goes. The public does NOT know where that money goes. It was sold under the premise that it would go back into Utah wildlife but look at the law and you will find no provision for allocation of funds.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Far and away, the biggest misconception going is that the DWR makes major management decisions, i.e., sets objectives, season dates, tag allotments and fees, etc.


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## ut1031 (Sep 13, 2007)

You hit it out of the park Finn.......The Wildlife Board controls everything you mentioned.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

ut1031 said:


> You hit it out of the park Finn.......The Wildlife Board controls everything you mentioned.


The legislative branch sets some of the dates, though, correct?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

That 3 point of better really worked on the Henries and Bookcliffs.

That SFW is a honest group that cares about their average sportsmen.

Many MM posters also believe that now bucks can give birth to fawns, therefore, if we increase the bucks in the herd then we will have more fawns that survive to adulthood.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2011)

coyoteslayer said:


> SFW is a honest group that cares about their average sportsmen.


 -_O- -_O- -_O-

thats another misconception some people have about utah hunting


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

15 buck per 100 doe is sufficient to breed most of the doe in a herd. And early enough to have an early fawning. And have no issue with premature fawn going into winter.

Habitat is the primary reason for the deer herd not increasing. 

Over 30,000 deer are hit by cars a yr in Utah.

Severe winters and drought have been the reason for lower deer populations.

Predation is compensatory not additive.

Hunter harvest has no relation to deer herd health.

Utah has the best elk hunt in the nation.

Coyote not Cougar are to blame for the brunt of deer mortality.

Most if not all of the UDWR biologist are concerned weather or not Utah has a viable family hunt.

Habitat restoration projects are having a measurable positive effect on the deer herd.

Utah has lost most of its deer wintering range due to housing development.

Mule deer are unadaptable like Whitetail.

That hunter retention and recruitment should be a priority. 

The good ole days are gone and its impossible to have anything that resembles such. 

Conservation groups are a positive for our hunting outlook.

Above named misconceptions are not exclusive to MM or any other hunting forum.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

there are no big bucks on general public land.........big misconception!!

that utah general hunting sucks... big misconception!!

That there are no cougars in Utah.. Big misconception passed on by houndsman and guides. 

by far the worst misconception for tards is by looking at the max point catagory with the le units and then looking at how many points they have Then subtract the two and say they will draw in x many years. LOL big misconception in fact its usually out of reach for most of them.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Some archery elk units have gotten easier to draw in the last few years--trending the other way--same with antelope


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

there are no big bucks on general public land.........

now thats funny, I've seen plenty and seen plenty kill pictures off of public land.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I found the DNR's hunting opportunities for youth web page and it does not mention any management deer hunts on the henrys or pauns. I don't think that Packouts statement was correct that youth get some of these tags. If anyone prove me wrong--please do!

http://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/fact_sheet ... unting.pdf


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

That Packout, always posting BS. :mrgreen:

From the 2010 proclamation:

Management buck deer permits are available 
through the Division's big game drawing. *Thirty 
percent of the management buck deer permits 
are available to hunters who'll be 18 years of age 
or younger on Aug. 21, 2010. Thirty percent are 
available to hunters who'll be 65 years of age or 
older on Aug. 21, 2010. The remaining 40 percent 
are available to hunters of all ages. Group applica- 
tions are not accepted. *
If you are successful in the drawing, you must 
complete an online orientation course before you 
receive your permit. 
A management buck deer permit allows you 
to take one management buck deer during the 
season. You may use any legal weapon to hunt on 
the area specified on your permit. Management 
buck deer hunting seasons and areas are found 
on page 49. 
If you participate in this hunt, you may not 
hunt in the following areas: 
• Deer CWMUs 
• Areas with special restrictions (see 
pages 41-42) 
After taking your buck deer, you must bring 
its head and antlers to a Division office for inspec- 
tion no later than 72 hours after the date of kill. 
Important: If you obtain a management 
buck deer permit, you will lose your bonus points 
and incur a waiting period of two years. The only 
other deer permit you can obtain is an antlerless 
deer permit. Please see the Antlerless big game 
hunting box on page 22 for more information. 
Poaching-reported


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Another misconception......

.... If you start accumulating points for LE tags in 2011 as a new hunter you will draw a tag within your lifetime. (So I shall take my kids out of state to hunt big game)


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Thanks Treehugr! I like to be informed! I wonder why the division didn't put that on the youth opportunities page--they should have


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

If you protect the little bucks and only kill the big bucks, you'll have and see more big bucks.

Fishrmn


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

Fishrmn said:


> If you protect the little bucks and only kill the big bucks, you'll have and see more big bucks.
> 
> Fishrmn


no you will have more and see more little bucks. if you focus 100% of the hunting population on the mature bucks, you will do nothing more then wipe out the mature population and have nothing left to breed a majority of the does.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

kill_'em_all said:


> Fishrmn said:
> 
> 
> > If you protect the little bucks and only kill the big bucks, you'll have and see more big bucks.
> ...


Nothing left to breed the majority of the does :?: Really, you don't think the young bucks will step in.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

no im sure they will, but a single smaller one wont be able to breed the numbers that one single big mature buck can


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> no you will have more and see more little bucks. if you focus 100% of the hunting population on the mature bucks, you will do nothing more then wipe out the mature population and have nothing left to breed a majority of the does.


I know. That is why I put it here as a misconception about Utah hunting. If you wanna see bigger bucks, protect the bigger bucks. Anybody wanna tell me where you see the biggest elk? The same units that allow spike only hunts during the general season and limited entry for mature bulls. Why? Because the mature bulls are protected by regulations and the spikes are thinned by the general season hunters. Guess what size of fish that you see most of at Strawberry? The ones in the slot. Why? Because they are protected by regulations. If you could keep anything over 15 inches at Strawberry, but had to return everything smaller than that, that's exactly what you'd see up there.

Fishrmn


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> no im sure they will, but a single smaller one wont be able to breed the numbers that one single big mature buck can


And the process of breeding will cause more mortality among the smaller bucks.

Fishrmn


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

a big "MISCONCEPTION" is you need big old bucks to breed the does or the genetic quality will be lost. LOL 

a young two point has the same genetics if he breeds a doe at 2 years old or if he is allowed to live long enough to breed at 10.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

The problem is not that young bucks cant breed the does or dont have the genetics. Its that the does will not breed with them until the late cycle and risk the fawn the following winter.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> a big "MISCONCEPTION" is you need big old bucks to breed the does or the genetic quality will be lost. LOL
> 
> a young two point has the same genetics if he breeds a doe at 2 years old or if he is allowed to live long enough to breed at 10.


Ok Smartie, how do you answer Ronnie Mcdowell's study about older women?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

:mrgreen: 

They understand.........


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## SLCMULEY (Mar 14, 2010)

> The problem is not that young bucks cant breed the does or dont have the genetics. Its that the does will not breed with them until the late cycle and risk the fawn the following winter.


+1 Madhunter


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## SLCMULEY (Mar 14, 2010)

Those bigger bucks posturing around the does in November get em all excited. This makes the does start their cycles in unisom, which in turn produces fawning in May. It's the June - August fawning that needs to be avoided. 
I will admit this is the only positive biological affect of higher ratios, other than the social aspect of creating better hunting experiences. Better hunting experiences is exactly what we need in order to keep our new hunter recruitment up. 
Keep in mind on average only 30-35% of the buck population is 3 pt or better on general units. A 21/100 ratio equates to 7/100 bucks 3 pt or greater.

What's the average age of hunters right now? What was it 20 years ago? What does that mean for the near future (10-20 yrs)?
2 things we definitely need to keep:
1- Deer herds
2- Hunter recruitment
Thats my 2 cents and I know few will see eye to eye with me. To each their own.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Go tell a goat dairy farmer a baby buck wont bread his momma and the rest of the does if he's left in the pen. Go tell a cattle man he cant have a young bull do the breading. 

heres another bad example put a 16 year old boy in a adult woman prison and turn your back and see what happens.

one thing I have learned about women is if they want it they will find a way to get it.

I dont think deer are any different and Utah is a great state to prove it. From the numbers ive seen the deer herd in Utah now is larger then it was in 1993. I think the young bucks are doing what needs to be done.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

SLC- The mean (average) fawning date in Utah is June 20th. August fawns may or may not be the cause of unproductive bucks. A yearling doe may come in heat later or a mature doe may come in heat later. To place late fawning on the bucks is not always true.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

SLCMULEY said:


> Those bigger bucks posturing around the does in November get em all excited. This makes the does start their cycles in unisom, which in turn produces fawning in May.


There are behavioral factors certainly such as herd health, extreme pressure, extreme wether, etc that can effect deer behavior no doubt but photoperiod (amount of daylight) is what generally triggers the rut.

In other words the absence of a large buck, or even a buck at all, will not stop a doe from coming into estrus or have much of an effect on timing. I think we may be putting too much emphasis on the role of a buck during the rut.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> There are behavioral factors certainly such as herd health, extreme pressure, extreme wether, etc that can effect deer behavior no doubt but photoperiod (amount of daylight) is what generally triggers the rut.


True, because bucks are like the leaves on a plant.  I'm teasing with ya!


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

You guys seriously don't think a higher buck to doe ratio leads to a healthier deer herd?

Ever hear of a guy called Darwin?

Surely somebody understands the benefit of genetic diversity.

Imagine all of the ugly kids from that 16 year old...Take the same scenario and throw in a couple 6' 5" 25 year olds that have reached an age to express their genetic potential.

Try running the Wasatch on a low buck to doe ratio... What is it anyway? ;-) There's a lot more in play than just low harvest success on the WF.

I think some of you guys need to go on a few out of state hunts.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mrad said:


> Ever hear of a guy called Darwin?
> 
> Surely somebody understands the benefit of genetic diversity.


Half a deers genes come from its mother...

-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Mrad,,,welcome.

I, for one, firmly believe higher buck to doe ratios will help the general deer herds.


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

True. What's your point.


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

How many bucks do you know that are gonna turn down an ugly young doe? Proly not many... Boys will be boys. 

On the flip side give a doe a choice between a dinky trophy Utah 2point and a mature brute of a buck and who do you think she's gonna get busy with?

Maybe a night or two in a singles bar will bring some of you guys back to reality more so than a lecture in genetics.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Mrad said:


> You guys seriously don't think a higher buck to doe ratio leads to a healthier deer herd?
> 
> Ever hear of a guy called Darwin?
> 
> ...


Trying to improve genetics of a free ranging deer herd via higher buck:doe ratios is like sticking your hand in the Jordan River and expecting to slow the flow into the Great Salt Lake.

I am confused on what you are talking about in regards to the Wasatch. Please help this uneducated guy out.......

I have hunted several states, now what?

Oh yeah, welcome to the forum! 8)


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I, for one, firmly believe higher buck to doe ratios will help the general deer herds.


Please explain. :?:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > I, for one, firmly believe higher buck to doe ratios will help the general deer herds.
> ...


For the simple fact that getting the does bred in the first estrus cycle
is very important.............And a mature buck doing it is even better...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

And what tells you that does bred during the first estrus cycle results in any measurable benefits to the deer herd? I recall reading an article written by Todd Black that suggests this MAY lead to higher fawn survival rates, but neither Todd nor any other biologist that I have heard of has SHOWN this to actually be anything more than a 'hunch'. You have any study(s) or actual results that back up your assertion?


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

Btw I'm just looking to build up enough posts to get into the super secret fishing forum, and arguing about Utah's deer management seems to be the fastest way to get there.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Good hell PRO, have you lost your common sense?

Do I really have to explain how a fawn born the first part of June has a
better chance of surviving the winter than the one born in July?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Mrad said:


> Btw I'm just looking to build up enough posts to get into the super secret fishing forum, and arguing about Utah's deer management seems to be the fastest way to get there.


I sent you a PM.......

I'll help ya build up your posts.

What are your thoughts on deer herd management and opt 2 for 2012..


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Good hell PRO, have you lost your common sense?
> 
> Do I really have to explain how a fawn born the first part of June has a
> better chance of surviving the winter than the one born in July?


So, you are admitting you have NO proof/studies to back up your assertion. Got it.


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

Not really a big fan of any of the proposals, but 2 likely has the best chance of producing a few more bucks to chase around, and I like big bucks. I know I'm funny that way.

I honestly don't have a ton of faith that Utah will really get a hand on our struggling deer herds. I hope I'm wrong. We're the third fastest growing state in the nation. More and more people means more pressure on our deer from all angles.

Sadly pretty much anything is just a temporary bandaid, and we'll look back at this in 20 years and wish we'd done more, and appreciated every day spent chasing deer more.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Mrad said:


> Ever hear of a guy called Darwin?
> 
> Surely somebody understands the benefit of genetic diversity.


I buy what you're saying. I think this argument though is based on the assumption that we are BELOW the number of bucks needed to provide such diversity. I suppose someone could make that argument on a "hunch" or "gut feeling"but there is no scientific data to say that we don't have enough bucks to create genetic diversity.

I like your comments about option 2, not because I share your views but I personally can appreciate someone being up front that they support it because they want to see bigger bucks. Perhaps you can have a realistic conversation about these changes. It's my belief that most hunters (72% based on a 2008 DWR survey) just want to get out and hunt. I feel that option 2 goes against that public desire. I believe thats why we have LE units, for guys that want bigger bucks at the expense of opportunity. Units that fall below the 15:100 buck to doe ratio that is set in the 2008 mule deer plan should have some cuts IMO.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Mrad said:


> I honestly don't have a ton of faith that Utah will really get a hand on our struggling deer herds. I hope I'm wrong. We're the third fastest growing state in the nation. More and more people means more pressure on our deer from all angles.


Here is what Utah is doing to help deer herds. They are doing more than any state in the west. There is more than $120 million mentioned here put towards helping deer in the last 5 years.

1.Habitat - We are conducting the most massive effort to restore mule deer habitat conditions ever undertaken in Utah, or in the West. In the last five years, the Division, along with its many partners, has improved mule deer habitat on more than 600,000 acres at a cost of more than $70 million. Habitat improvement projects often take a few years before they begin to pay off, but I am confident that in the long term they will result in healthier deer populations throughout the state. Our deer management plan has an objective to improve another 500,000 acres of habitat in the next five years.

2.Predators - The Division recognizes that coyotes and other predators can cause significant mortality, especially among mule deer fawns, and that predator control is an important part of a deer management program. In the last five years, the Division has provided almost $3 million to Wildlife Services to control coyotes in areas that are important to our deer populations. Last year alone, Wildlife Services killed more than 1,700 coyotes in critical deer habitat areas with funding and guidance provided by the Division. The Division would like to expand our predator control efforts if we can obtain new funding.

3.Highway Mortality - Deer-auto collisions are responsible for the death of thousands of deer annually. We are working closely with the Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT) to reduce highway mortality, and we appreciate their cooperation in addressing this serious issue. In the past five years, UDOT has spent more than $45 million on fencing and highway bypass structures around the state for both mule deer and elk. The Division is also providing funding to Utah State University for a study to further identify the most effective types of highway bypass structures for both deer and elk.

4.Poaching - The Division has stepped up our law enforcement efforts and put more resources into catching poachers who steal many deer from Utah sportsmen each year. Several high-profile arrests have recently been made of poachers who have unlawfully killed multiple deer. Information we receive from sportsmen, alerting us to illegal activity, has been a key to our law enforcement success.

5.Disease - Diseases can cause significant mortality in deer populations. The Division has expended more than $1 million in the last five years in the surveillance and research of chronic wasting disease and other diseases that affect mule deer.

6.Research - The Division has initiated numerous research projects in recent years to better understand the factors that are negatively affecting our mule deer populations. Last winter, the Division embarked on an extensive statewide radio telemetry study to better understand over-winter survival of both does and fawns. Hundreds of deer will be collared over the next few years-at an expense of more than $1 million-in order to gain better information about deer survival rates. The Division is also planning a comprehensive productivity study that will focus on the impacts of predators on mule deer fawns.

7.Emergency Feeding - The Division has an emergency winter feeding policy for deer should unusually severe conditions arise that warrant supplemental feeding. Even though feeding deer is both expensive and labor intensive, the Division has resources set aside for emergency situations. In 2008, the Division, in concert with several sportsman organizations, fed more than 14,000 deer in the Northern Region at a cost of more than $228,000.


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

That's good stuff, and I hope they're successful.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> 1.Habitat - We are conducting the most massive effort to restore mule deer habitat conditions ever undertaken in Utah, or in the West. In the last five years, the Division, along with its many partners, has improved mule deer habitat on more than 600,000 acres at a cost of more than $70 million. Habitat improvement projects often take a few years before they begin to pay off, but I am confident that in the long term they will result in healthier deer populations throughout the state. Our deer management plan has an objective to improve another 500,000 acres of habitat in the next five years.


Do these figures include DH donations/value of donated hours?


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## Bergy (Apr 3, 2008)

I think the biggest misconception about Utah Hunting is that you can NOT have Trophy quality AND tons of opportunity. You can have both... take a look at the extended wasatch hunt. Big deer/big opportunity... You just need to do things a little different IMO.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Talk about " misconceptions"....or not.

Yes the extended has big bucks and opportunity,,,,BUT ITs archery only.

Heck, I'm an archery guy,,Liv right between Manti and Nebo,,,,,,
Make them extended archery only, THERE WOULD BE excellent quality AND
AND TON's of opportunity...... 
I'd be happier than an elk in a wallow!!  

But how pizzed would the muzzy and rifle guys be??? VERY!


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## Bergy (Apr 3, 2008)

Goofy, I dont think you can turn an entire state into archery only....thats not reality. But the point that Im trying to make is that you can have your cake and eat it too. It just may not always look like it has in the past.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I a agree Bergy,
I've been fighting for changing the way general hunts are done in Utah for a LONG time.

Unit management could definitely open the door for more areas like the extended...

And shuffle weapon use types around in others,,,with different hunt dates.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> And shuffle weapon use types around in others,,,with different hunt dates.


Agreed!


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

bullsnot said:


> Mrad said:
> 
> 
> > I honestly don't have a ton of faith that Utah will really get a hand on our struggling deer herds. I hope I'm wrong. We're the third fastest growing state in the nation. More and more people means more pressure on our deer from all angles.
> ...


You mean to tell us that DWR is doing all of this without Option #2? Hmmm!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

EFA....The seven issues above address every critical area EXCEPT HUNTERS,
OR "hunting pressure"

That is were opt 2 comes in and MANAGES hunters,,,, 
An important part of deer herd SOLUTION..


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

Hunters kill deer? Here all along I thought they just went out and had neat experiences, did nifty dedicated hunter projects, and provided money for the DWR.

That's a novel idea. Using hunters to "manage" big game herds. Huh!


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Talk about " misconceptions"....or not.
> 
> Yes the extended has big bucks and opportunity,,,,BUT ITs archery only. No! No! No! It has rifle and muzzy seasons just like the rest of the state! In fact, the Wasatch has the one of the highest densities of pumpkins during the rifle seasons (deer, elk, and moose) because of the additional bowhunters hunting the extended, who are required to wear orange.
> 
> ...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

My mistake,,I guess?
I thought SL county was off limits to fire arms EXCEPT the OIAL hunts..

I see this in the guide book,,,But I still am not sure..
All I know for SURE is,,,,,I wouldn't hunt there.  


Salt Lake County
In Salt Lake County, you may not do any of
the following:
Hunt big game within one-half mile of • Silver Lake in Big Cottonwood Canyon
Hunt on the Red Butte Natural Research • Area, which is closed to public access
Please check the special regulations under general any legal weapon buck deer (page 12), general muzzleloader buck deer (page 12), general season bull elk (page 16) and general muzzleloader elk (page 16) for additional restrictions in Salt Lake County.
Also, before hunting in the Salt Lake
County area, please check the Salt Lake County and local municipality ordinances regarding firearm restrictions.
A
lta
A designated portion of the town of Alta is closed to hunting. Please contact the town of Alta for hunt boundaries and other information.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> EFA....The seven issues above address every critical area EXCEPT HUNTERS,
> OR "hunting pressure"
> 
> That is were opt 2 comes in and MANAGES hunters,,,,
> An important part of deer herd SOLUTION..


Thanks for clarifying why you support opt 2. Since you seem to be amenable to the current solutions to the other seven issues, all we need to know is how managing hunters per opt 2's 29 unit breakdown equates to being "An important part of the deer herd SOLUTION.."

I'd like to hear your reasoning in some detail and maybe offer some of my own (without resorting to opt 2.).


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Speaking about general season deer only,

I hate the 3 and 5 day hunts , totally unacceptable..

General units with low buck to doe ratios must have hunting pressure controlled..

Season dates and weapon types,,,,Look at Nevada's deer hunt tables.
I would LOVE to see something very similar to this in Utah,,,2012 and beyond.

Improved buck to doe ratios, more mature bucks during the rut,,
Will improve (more) early fawn births in June..

BETTER HUNTS FOR HUNTERS,,,IMHO, seeing more mature bucks GREATLY
improves the hunting experience,,,,,,,ESPECIALY for young hunters.

Just a few quick random thoughts,,,,AND,
These would all be a part of the "deer herd solution" IMHO..


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Speaking about general season deer only,
> 
> I hate the 3 and 5 day hunts , totally unacceptable.. Agreed. They accomplish very little as far the harvest numbers go and they just increase the hunting pressure by putting the same number of people in the hills in a shorter period of time.
> 
> ...


There's another thread on this Big Game sub-forum that deals with the progress of a typical hunter's viewpoint from novice to trophy hunter and how it relates to big game management. It appears you are trying to accelerate that process by eliminating most of the steps and jumping to trophy hunting right away. You also have to realize that many, if not most, of Utah's hunters may never even get to, or even want to get to, the trophy hunter level you deem ideal. I, myself am to the point where I would like to take a trophy/P&Y deer (I already have _an_ elk and _an _antelope in the books.), but I want only one! When I finally get one, I'm not going to spend the time, money and energy to top it every year! In fact, I'm probably not spending the time, money and energy getting my first one, that you're spending getting your 3rd, 4th, 5th, or whatever one.

I'll certainly be able to live with Option #2, but I'll fight it whenever I can because it isn't in the best interest of DWR's "bread and butter" hunters (per Anis at the recent Washington Wildlife Board work meeting).


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

BETTER HUNTS FOR HUNTERS,,,IMHO, seeing more mature bucks GREATLY
improves the hunting experience,,,,,,,ESPECIALY for young hunters. Again, we see where you are coming from and do not agree with your trophy hunter viewpoint. And neither does Nevada! The 2,762 Resident Junior tags to hunt all 3 seasons are for either sex!

And who is this WE that do not agree. There is a handfull of us that do agree.


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

> BETTER HUNTS FOR HUNTERS,,,IMHO, seeing more mature bucks GREATLY
> improves the hunting experience,,,,,,,ESPECIALY for young hunters.


At what expense Goofy? Sure a few youth will have a better time, but overall hunter recruitment/retainment will suffer and the deer herd will be no better off than before, just a few extra big bucks roaming around.

I was eighteen when I shot my first 4 pt, but my most memorable hunt of all was my first buck at the age of 14, a 2 pt. of all things. Managing for big bucks will not make the upcoming generation HUNTERS, it makes them spoiled brats embedding a strong sense of entitlement that only the SFW and people of similar mindset can provide.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

pheaz said:


> BETTER HUNTS FOR HUNTERS,,,IMHO, seeing more mature bucks GREATLY
> improves the hunting experience,,,,,,,ESPECIALY for young hunters. Again, we see where you are coming from and do not agree with your trophy hunter viewpoint. And neither does Nevada! The 2,762 Resident Junior tags to hunt all 3 seasons are for either sex!
> 
> And who is this WE that do not agree. There is a handfull of us that do agree.


I guess it would be all of us who are not a part of your handful!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

> "IMHO, seeing more mature bucks GREATLY improves the hunting experience,,,,,,,ESPECIALY for young hunters."


And the thread comes back to misconceptions, seeing as how young hunters have no public voice.

I won't presume to speak for them, but I've had many conversations with youngsters and overheard many more over the past 23 years. In those countless conversations, I've never heard a kid talk about B & C score, either to me or to his or her peers. And I can't recall ever hearing the pride or excitement in a kid's voice diminish even a little bit when he or she reports shooting a small buck, or even a doe.

I've heard them talk excitedly about adventure, pride in personal accomplishment, newly acquired skills and experiences shared with family.

I've heard enough to believe that the hunt itself is a rite of passage that can be as profound as adult mentors make it, for better or worse. All rites of passage are about values.

So all I can say is God save youngsters from the vicarious desires of adults.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

EFA & FINN,,,,

I know the kids I take,,,,,,You should really pat attention some time how a
youngsters eye light up when viewing better (bigger) bucks..... :shock: 

I mean REALLY, most are happy with "what ever", 
And antlerless hunts work great,,,Because That's what your hunting.

Show a 12 year old some good bucks, then a two point, ask him which
one he want to shoot :?: :?: I know the answer,,,I've done it.

Most kids are happy (and adult hunters) simply because they don't 
know what quality hunting is even about,,,, the way Utah general deer is
their happy to see some does and maybe a small buck or two....
Pretty pathetic..


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Most kids are happy (and adult hunters) simply because they don't
> know what quality hunting is even about,,,, the way Utah general deer is
> their happy to see some does and maybe a small buck or two....
> Pretty pathetic..


Quality hunting? How telling! :O>>:


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> EFA & FINN,,,,
> 
> I know the kids I take,,,,,,You should really pat attention some time how a
> youngsters eye light up when viewing better (bigger) bucks..... :shock:
> ...


Goofy, this post reveals the real problem I and many others have with the path Option #2 is taking us.

Of course the youngsters you take, if given the choice, would shot the bigger buck, as would any of us! We like big bucks too!

The trouble we have is that you and others, including some Wildlife Board members, are trying to create a hunting system that eventually forces us into hunting according to your definition of quality hunting, ie; bigger and more trophy bucks, at the expense of the differing viewpoint of our definition of quality hunting. Ultra-high buck to doe ratios, limited access into smaller units, fewer tags, higher tag prices, antler restrictions, shorter seasons, elimination of some hunts, closed units and longer waiting periods are just some of the things that have been proposed and/or implemented in order for you to accomplish that goal.

Ironically, you and others have managed to fill your den walls with several of these trophy bucks already, even under the past and current systems you now distain. Apparently, it's not enough! You now want to insure that you are able to accumulate a few more and that others do the same. While that goal is admirable, it isn't the only one out there, and the attempt to reach your goal at our expense isn't admirable at all.

You have to understand that we're not just trying to get you to change your trophy buck mentality because that is a personal thing and is acceptable under the current hunting system via the Premium LE and LE programs. The thing that we want you and others to do is stop trying to force that mentality on the rest of us by setting up a system that promotes it only!

The current deer management plan with the necessary adjustments as problems are discovered can help us all reach our goals of more deer AND more big bucks. We simply don't need Option #2 with all it's unintended consequences to do that.

In several of your posts you use the term IMHO. How about keeping it that way? (  edited) Continue to share it with us, but realize it is your opinion and not necessarily ours.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Anyone's eyes would light up at the sight of a monster. We would have to be numb not to. The point with kids here is that it is our resposibility as hunters to educate them on the hunt not the trophy. We have become a society of instant gratification. We do not teach out kids the meaning and value of working hard and going through trial and error to attain a goal. What would a 15 year old have to look forward to we got him a B&C buck and then he could not top it the following years?

I don't know about your kids but the kids I have taken out have their eyes light up at the sight of a buck. Any buck. I teach them skills that they will build up over the years. I teach them how to stalk a not so wise young buck and then you move up from there. I lay out steps and milestones for them and they work towards the big ones. It's like teaching them to walk and I sure as hell am not gona teach my kids to run if they can barely stand.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> Anyone's eyes would light up at the sight of a monster. We would have to be numb not to. The point with kids here is that it is our resposibility as hunters to educate them on the hunt not the trophy. We have become a society of instant gratification. We do not teach out kids the meaning and value of working hard and going through trial and error to attain a goal. What would a 15 year old have to look forward to we got him a B&C buck and then he could not top it the following years?
> 
> I don't know about your kids but the kids I have taken out have their eyes light up at the sight of a buck. Any buck. I teach them skills that they will build up over the years. I teach them how to stalk a not so wise young buck and then you move up from there. I lay out steps and milestones for them and they work towards the big ones. It's like teaching them to walk and I sure as hell am not gona teach my kids to run if they can barely stand.


+1


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> The trouble we have is that you and others, including some Wildlife Board members, are trying to create a hunting system that eventually forces us into hunting according to your definition of quality hunting, ie; bigger and more trophy bucks, at the expense of the differing viewpoint of our definition of quality hunting. Ultra-high buck to doe ratios, limited access into smaller units, fewer tags, higher tag prices, antler restrictions, shorter seasons, elimination of some hunts, closed units and longer waiting periods are just some of the things that have been proposed and/or implemented in order for you to accomplish that goal.


Sad, but true...I will never understand the mentality that is trying to make a general season into a trophy hunt. I think that is an oxymoron...a general season SHOULD maximize opportunity NOT quality. The sad thing is the trophy mentality wants everything there way without any compromise--they want the entire state managed for quality without managing for opportunity. It is extremely selfish....


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> You have to understand that we're not just trying to get you to change your trophy buck mentality because that is a personal thing and is acceptable under the current hunting system via the Premium LE and LE programs.The thing that we want is for you and others to do is stop trying to force that mentality on the rest of us by setting up a system that promotes it only!


The trophy mentality for deer is available not only in Premium LE and LE areas, trophy bucks are shot every year on every general unit in the state. That's what ticks me off with the mentality that we need to increase the quality on general units...


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> What would a 15 year old have to look forward to we got him a B&C buck and then he could not top it the following years?


I'd like to use myself as an example of this.

My first buck was a small 2x3 (very small), but I was so excited to finally shoot him. I'm sure many of you really experienced guys had shot much bigger bucks by the time you were 16, but for me that was THE BEST hunting experience I have ever had (next to my first spike elk I shot).

When I got off my mission I lucked out and I shot a nice heavy horned 4x4 (actually a 5x4 with his 1 1/2 in cheater). Each year after that I got disappointed at not seeing bigger deer (as I would pass up on multiple nice 3x3's or 4x4's that were the same size or smaller than "my biggest buck"). I got the "trophy" mentality fever and it took over. I have not shot another buck since (by choice), but as I have read/discussed/been taught more and more about deer management and hunting I have learned that the big deer are there, but each person has a different ideas as to what is a "trophy". To me I always said I'd love to shot a 150-160 class mule deer (I know not huge) and thought I had still yet to accomplish this task with all the "small deer" I had seen over the years.

Well, last week as I was watching some ncaa basketball games I decided to measure that 4x4 I had shot about 5 years ago. Guess what he scored? 152 3/8! Of course not huge to most of you, but that moment I realized I had really been taken over by the "trophy" mentality and needed to take my goggles off.

We all can get caught up in the bigger/better deer and I don't think this is wrong. However, it is wrong when that mentality is forced upon others especially when we have general units that produce good deer and a current LE system that gives you a shot at the really big boys. My 2 cents.

FYI, I've been hunting a really big boy in the SE unit that I have seen glimpses of the last two years while hunting/scouting/trail cam pics. Big boy seems to elude me every time! But that is the joy of hunting!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Great conversation guys...some excellent posts.

Let me first say that I really like big bucks. I will continue to pursue them with vigor because its a hoot! But putting quality before the experience of the hunt, in my eyes, is akin to trying to keep up with the Joneses. The only reason we want to kill a 200 inch buck is because we see how good they look on someone elses wall or ona mag cover. 200 inches doesn't taste good, it doesn't turn into a years supply of beer, and it doesn't turn into a beautiful woman. It just sits on your wall waiting for the next person to show up that you can impress.

Hey I'm guilty of it too...just saying I can put into perspective. Now if a 200 inch buck is your equivilant of climbing mount Everst, because it's very difficult then great! Why try to make it easier and dilute the accomplishment? 

Having said that I respect someone elses wishes or opinion. I just don't think that turning the whole state into a trophy deer hunt best serves the citizens of Utah. There are some LE units for that purpose.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Lets get a few things strait here,

First, I've only hunted rifle general deer in Utah ONCE in the last 13 years,
I have had an occasional archery permit,,,but, DO NOT GIUDE "GENERAL" anything.
Don't intended to start either!!
I'm just sick of seeing our general deer herds run into the ground..

There are some on here refusing to see the good things opt 2 can provide
for improving our deer herds,,,,,,,,All I can Say is, we'll just wait and see..  

Some are completely convinced that they are trying to turn the entire state into
a (LE) Book cliffs type hunt,,,,This simply is not true. Another misconception
being pushed by some on this forum.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

Common misconceptions about Utah hunting: That option 2 will get us headed in the right direction to improve our deer herds. :roll:


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Lets get a few things strait here,
> 
> First, I've only hunted rifle general deer in Utah ONCE in the last 13 years,
> I have had an occasional archery permit,,,but, DO NOT GIUDE "GENERAL" anything.
> ...


Wow! No response is necessary, but since this is a public forum I think I'll copy this and use it in the next RAC and Wildlife Board meetings.


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