# Ethics vs. morals about killing coyotes question for you all



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

I think we (all Utah deer hunters) have become educated enough to know how brutal coyotes are on our beloved deer population,right?
Here is a dilemna I faced today that is literally tearing at me as I type this.
While exploring the west desert this morning I could have killed 6 coyotes. That is a sweet 300 dollars.
The reason I ask the following question is because, every one of them was a pup and cute as could be.
But, we all know those cute pups grow up to be fawn snatching murderers.
Ethically:
I was within every rule set by our DWR if I were to cap them all. 
My finger was on the trigger and I was about to start dropping the hammer on them but I just couldn't do it, even though I know it was for the greater good.
Morally:
I struggled. The entire drive home I debated back and forth in my mind where my beliefs lie.
Those 6 coyotes will be responsible for the death of hundreds of deer as they reproduce and spread out and raise litter after litter of pups.
As I type this I regret not taking them out to protect our deer herds, but if I were to run in to them tomorrow I doubt I could kill them...
Weird,huh?
I kept thinking of the following situation I was in recently as I struggled with today's decision:
I love yellow perch.
Years ago I thought it was a travesty to willingly waste them at Fishlake, one of my most favorite places in the world I love to be.
Now that I have become educated by our DWR, I have zero issues catching and wasting them in order to benefit the health of my beloved Fishlake.
Back to the coyote question, as an educated person would you have pulled the trigger today?
Is their a difference in the two situations to warrant two different decisions?


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Good question!

I would’ve shot them.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I would of shot them in a heart beat. On shooting a pup, what is the difference when hunters shoot a calf elk? Neither one of them is mature, if it is legal then shoot them. 

As for perch, I remember at Deer Creek back in the 60's. There were trash barrels in the more popular parking places (way before the State Parks took over) and you would find everyone of them filled to the brim with yellow perch. Strawberry was close to being the same way before they poisoned it back in the mid 60's. They were considered trash fish and very few fishermen took them home unless they were short of cut bait.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Shaner, You made the right decision if you "feel" you did. I personally wont shoot pups or any Yote in the Summer. I trap, so I can make a few bucks more trapping than them than shooting them. 


I like hunting Deer also. ****, now you got me thinking what I'd have done.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I think most people who are after the fur will say let them live.
And having the pups around the den is pretty much an easy day for $$$

Some people will not shoot anything they don't eat. Myself I don't have a problem reducing the population of a wide variety of problem critters. YMMV


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Here is a way to look at it. 
As humans expand on the deers natural habitat and range we are forcing them to use less and less or their historical space. 
As we humans continue to expand we now are the only ones that can control the predators we have backed the deer into the corner and the predators are taking advantage of it. 
I would have shot them all.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I’d have shot them.

I don’t really feel that I need an excuse or justification to shoot coyotes. DWR says no license needed and that’s good enough for me.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I would have shot them, but I wouldn’t have taken any pictures, if that tells you anything. 

That being said, I would take pictures of the new gear I got from the $300!


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Bang !!
That's all I'll say.


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## bow_dude (Aug 20, 2009)

Many years ago I read an article written by Hugh Nibley that was published in the October 1972 edition of the Ensign Magazine titled "Mans Dominion" that shed some light on hunting, killing for sport, etc. Up until that time I really enjoyed hunting Jack Rabbits. You can tell that it caused me to do some "soul searching" and left a deep impression in my mind. I don"t hunt rabbits anymore for the joy of killing. I enjoy hunting, but I do not kill anything without a valid reason. That is my ethics and I don't expect others to abide by them. I don't condemn others for their choices and expect others to respect mine. With that said, no, I would not have shot them, but if possible taken their picture and just enjoyed the experience and cherished the moment.


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

It is nice to see someone with a conscience and morals.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Everyone has their own thoughts and idea of what's ethical and I respect your choice. As for me I would have killed them all. 

I do find many younger hunters take a broad view and acceptance of predators. I also believe this is bad logic with coyotes, raccoons and most small predators. Wildlife managers can effect change with lions, bears and wolves; however the shear number of smaller predators exceed most human control. Kill em when you can.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

No clear-cut, universal ethics or morals on such a choice. 

I don't hunt coyotes nor does it fit my ethics and values. But I can understand how others find value in the choice. Plenty of diverse opinions on subject.

The only thing I have to say is trusting your gut is key. If something stopped you from shooting that day, even if you can't articulate it, then it seems right for you. May or may not be different next time.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

They would have gotten a free pass from me....


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

I don’t think it is a bad thing to not love to kill. Certainly sometimes it is justifiable or even needed. I definitely seem to be less blood thirsty the older I get. As such, it sometimes makes it a bit more difficult for me to pull the trigger in a scenario such as yours. I know it is probably for the greater good but it is still not always easy. I have to say, in the moment I probably would have passed. Thinking about it after I probably would have wished I pulled the trigger.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

I was just having a similar conversation this morning on my daily hike. In your situation, I would have let them live and snapped some photos.

I have little desire to hunt or kill coyotes, but I don't hold it against someone in the slightest if that's what they enjoy doing. I find myself shifting away from hunting things which I don't want to prepare, and eat. I also think that tanning the pelts is a reasonable use of a coyote I suppose, aside from the purported management benefits.

For me, it's 100 percent personal, and some of my closest hunting buddies love to go call and shoot coyotes. 

I still love to go shoot jackrabbits on occasion, but they now find their way into the dutch oven or the slow cooker.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

One question that hasn’t been asked is, how old were the pups? If they’re brand new that would factor into my decision making but if they’re at least several months I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

When I was younger, I lost a dog to coyotes and ever since then I haven’t given it much thought when putting them down. But maybe I would if they were brand new.

Hard to say really, never been presented with that situation. I’ve obviously shot younger coyotes but never seen a brand new pup.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I don't have a dog in the fight - I wouldn't blame people for passing on them, or for shooting them. I think the OP has compassion for animals and doesn't believe that we HAVE to be the top of the food chain. I think having principles and sticking to them is noble. 

I always see these social media posts from people boasting about our responsibility to control predators and help deer. They are some of the same people who would shoot these coyotes and happily justify it. Then come November, they trophy hunt Mule Deer on the extended and refuse to harvest a doe. Some even criticize doe harvest. 

Isn't harvesting doe on the extended to help with winter kill, road kill, etc??? To help the deer herd overall?

So I don't care what side of the coin you are on, but if you preach one message it shouldn't be a "sometimes" belief.

Just my random .02


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

ditto


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I would like to hear Johnnycake's thoughts on the matter.


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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

I'm with most here, I wouldn't fault you either way. I think I would have pulled the trigger, but I can see being in your spot and not being able to. Definitely an interesting scenario though to think about.


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

I would have let them walk. Also, don't second guess your decision. That's what you decided to do, so that was the right choice for you.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

It really is a personal decision for anyone.
I don't hunt ducks, geese, pheasants, turkeys and rabbits anymore. I don't care to eat them anymore. I still hunt deer elk and antelope because I still like to eat them.

I don't put in for OIL draws because I have no desire to harvest any of the species.

But I'll still kill vermin of all kinds given the opportunity.

We should throw "wild" horses into the conversation and really get it going :grin:


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I would like to hear Johnnycake's thoughts on the matter.


I would guess he will be here shortly to "sooth"this one out. Probably too busy right now doing lawyer things or sorting out his briefcase full of Alaska tags at the moment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

3arabians said:


> I would guess he will be here shortly to "sooth"this one out. Probably too busy right now doing lawyer things or sorting out his briefcase full of Alaska tags at the moment.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've heard that he's lugging around a file cabinet now. The briefcase wasn't big enough to hold them all.


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## CGR (Aug 16, 2017)

Historically, U.S. government agencies have spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying to eradicate coyotes like they did wolves with aerial gunning, poisoning, trapping, bounties, etc. The result? There are more coyotes than ever, in more places than ever.

I don't think you shooting a few is going to make a difference.

Here's a podcast and an article on the matter.

Coyote stuff starts right at about an hour in on the podcast

https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/episode-033

https://www.themeateater.com/conservation/wildlife-management/coyotes-kill-deer-not-deer-herds


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## bow_dude (Aug 20, 2009)

I will add to my story... When I was 18, my Bishop decided to try and urge me to go on a mission for the Church. He had a dry farm on the Idaho, Utah boarder in a small area known as Juniper near the Park Valley area. He took me up to the farm to disc the wheat fields and prepare them for the winter. He told me to bring my shotgun as there were always Sage Grouse in the area and generally coyotes wandering his fields. We arrived on the property to find a Bitch Coyote wandering, so we proceeded to chase it down in his truck while I leaned out the window with the shot gun. Just before it dropped into a ravine that ran thru the property, I took a shot. I ended up killing it. It had a beautiful multi colored hide. I skinned it, rolled it up in salt and put it in a plastic bag and placed it in the freezer. The thought was that I would have it tanned. A few months went by, I forgot about it and left it there for the next two years while I served a mission (Bishop was successful). I came home, got busy with life and school, met and married my wife and life went on. One day when I was home visiting my folks, my father reminded me that I still had a coyote pelt in the freezer. We retrieved and thawed it. It appeared to still be in good condition, even though 5 or more years had passed. Being a newly married man with young children, like most at that age, we were living hand-to-mouth and I couldn't afford to have it tanned. Sadly, the pelt ended up at the landfill. That was the first and last coyote I have ever killed or had a desire to kill. Like many of you that hate yotes, I have known many sheep ranchers that have a strong dislike for them. I come from a sheep rancher background, but never saw the rampant slaughter of sheep that coyotes are know for, so I never developed that hate. On the other hand, my son is one of those guys who loves to hunt them. To each their own.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Ugh...just finished organizing my hunting tag storage unit. It's amazing how quickly you can fill up a 20'x10'x15' space with papers that legally let you kill stuff up here! 

But seriously, how has nobody answered this properly yet?!

I would have soaked in the moment, watching the pups goof around and play with their siblings. A little yip here, a goofy nibble-pounce-paw the air combo there. And then, when the morning light glistens off their nubile forms just right, I'd try like hell to suppress my giggling as I pulled the trigger as quickly as possible. 
$300 is $300. Killing them as kiddos is just a bonus.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I is a lot like when I was up in British Colombia and I asked my outfitter what he wanted me to do if we saw a wolf. His reply was that I should just start shooting but that I would quite likely get the idea since he would be unloading his pistol at the wolf.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> Ugh...just finished organizing my hunting tag storage unit. It's amazing how quickly you can fill up a 20'x10'x15' space with papers that legally let you kill stuff up here!
> 
> But seriously, how has nobody answered this properly yet?!
> 
> ...


Edit- Don't drink and post on UWN. Nighty night.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

Around here there are so many predator hunters that I just leave them for those guys. Also I think it is wrong to kill them outside of deep winter because you waste their pelt. Let hidden instinct get them, they kill half the coyotes in the state anyway lol


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

interesting question. I don't know what I would do. I have never really been into coyote hunting. But in reality, how many deer do coyotes kill? How many sheep do Coyotes kill? what else do they kill? I would look at it this way. How many other animals are you going to save by disposing of those pups? I think I have made my decision.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I also believe it is a personal decision. But, I would have shot them for management reasons mainly, but 300 bucks isn't bad either. If you kill them young they will not create as much impact to the other critters.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

What's the difference between killing perch or killing coyote pups? I don't see much personally.

How "cute" are coyote pups as compared to a rooster pheasant or a fully decked out wood duck? What about a doe deer or cow elk looking right at you as you drop the string or pull the trigger?

People like to think of hunters as cold-blooded killers, and to some extent they are correct (although I'd never want that label personally). To some extent though, we all have to take the emotion out of the equation in order to hunt. The animals we pursue are indeed beautiful, so then how and why do we kill them? You corral your emotions to a degree...plus, you'll never get to stroke a live elk's hair or a pheasant's plumage.

I would have shot the pups knowing what they will become in a few short months or years. A $300 pay day would only have sweetened the deal.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

The DWR wants them gone, they want them gone so bad they are willing to offer significant money as a reward for their removal.

I consider it a duty as a Sportsman to help aid the DWR in this, and wouldn't hesitate to legally fire on any coyote, regardless of age.

That said, its up to individuals to make decisions on their own, according to their personal beliefs and comfort level. *I would never judge anyone who feels otherwise.* Feel good about your choice, its fine in the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps someone a few months from now will take their son or daughter out hunting 'yotes, and will have greater success because there were a few more around for them.

-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Years ago I found a Red Fox den. I watched the Den when the pups emerged, and began playing and being taught by the Adults. Cool stuff. 


I returned in January with traps and spread them out within a few miles of the Den. I don't know if the Reds I trapped were those pups, but I caught 7 in a week. 


Pups are easy to shoot. So when hunting deer do we all hold out for a mature deer, or kill the two point close to the road? 


I believe its your own decision, and we as sportsman shouldn't criticize anyone for their actions or decision.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Ugh...just finished organizing my hunting tag storage unit. It's amazing how quickly you can fill up a 20'x10'x15' space with papers that legally let you kill stuff up here!
> 
> But seriously, how has nobody answered this properly yet?!
> 
> ...


I bet a giggle wouldn't be the only thing you'd be trying like hell to suppress!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Great question shaner. I wouldn't have shot them either. I shot a baby raccoon a couple of years ago out in the marsh and it kind of still bothers me. My dog was playing with it and it showed no aggression or anything like that. I just shouldn't have done it period. Those little bastards are hard on nests and all of that, but I still feel some guilt about popping him. The young anything (critters) will get a pass from me from now on. I hate ringing the necks of crippled ducks and geese too, just something I never get used to.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks everybody for sharing your stories, I really appreciate you spending the time to answer.
Years ago I shot a jack at about 40 yards with my .223. I hit the Bunny square but it looked/sounded funny upon impact. I walked up to investigate and there were 4 or 5 little bunnies squirming around. I couldn't just leave them so I had to do the humane thing and put the little bunnies out of misery, not pleasant. I no longer will shoot a rabbit in the spring.
I also cant apply for late season cow tags because I dont want to clean a calf out of a cow.
FM, I can relate to your bird story. I cringe when I see guys just spinning birds around not even really breaking their neck. They must think death by centrifugal force works.
I teach everyone in my group how to break them quickly and properly out of respect to the bird. I cant stand seeing a live bird on a strap or in a game bag.
I also cant put a fish alive on a stringer or in a cooler. I immediately make a decision to release or kill, if killing I immediately rip both gills out , bleed out for 2 or 3 minutes, and put on ice. More humane to the fish and more tasty for me as no blood on the fillets.
P.S. Although a tough pill to swallow, you did the right thing to that raccoon. 
I know, easy for me to say especially since I couldn't kill the pups.
I guess that makes me a hypocrite.....


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I bet a giggle wouldn't be the only thing you'd be trying like hell to suppress!


Only if I was shooting prone. That could affect my accuracy


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Hoopermat said:


> Here is a way to look at it.
> As humans expand on the deers natural habitat and range we are forcing them to use less and less or their historical space.
> As we humans continue to expand we now are the only ones that can control the predators we have backed the deer into the corner and the predators are taking advantage of it.
> I would have shot them all.


Personally, my thought's go alone the these lines, but I'll expand on it.

Get yer coffee ready

Every Animal on this planet is either Hunter, or Hunted. Predator, or Prey. We, are hunters (although we can be prey as well). Which is to say, that we have a place on the food chain. As the food chain goes, it's intricate, and complicated; and no i'm no biologist. Anyway here's the thing, if i can articulate this properly:

Any piece of land is only capable of supporting so much wildlife. Wildlife is hemmed into certain areas because of our constantly growing cities. (which in turn kills a whole lot of wildlife without anyone ever pulling a trigger)

We are predators, our food of choice is deer and elk. Any given unit is only capable of supporting so many ungulates, and the ungulate population can only sustain so much loss. A healthy population can't exist with too much predation. As predators, we have also displaced the wolf population. Before we came along, the wolves would do what we are currently doing. As a competing predator, we pushed the wolves out. We aren't the only species that does this. The wolves would be doing the same thing to the coyotes. My understanding is, the reason there are so many coyotes now; is because the wolves are no longer around to keep them in check. So when we took the wolves place, we took it's responsibilities in the food chain.

This is how I rationalize it to myself. Ordinarily I have issues of killing anything I'm not going to eat; however coyotes make my exception list. Their numbers reduce my opportunities, and in an indirect way are taking a possible food source from my mouth. Unfortunately, there is a contingent of people with political (PETA) interests who want to reintroduce wolves into Utah, just so there can be less hunters afield. The whole "wildlife doesn't need to be managed, and we should butt out" crowd. What they fail to realize is, because of the very existence of our large urban areas which destroys habitat, we have a roll to play, we we are not isolated from the food chain, nor are we above it, no matter how much they think man kinds place is in the city and not in the wilderness.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Well said Lone Hunter.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Let me first say that I don't care whether or he would have or would have not killed the coyotes. I certainly have no issue with killing predators or coyote pups. Personally, I would have let them go...

...BUT, I want to bring up a different thought that may hijack this thread. This idea that killing those pups would help our mule heer herd is simply far from what actually would happen and the idea that our DWR wants all coyotes dead is also absurd at best. Remember, the coyote control program in the state of Utah was created via the legislative process and state politicians and not by Utah's wildlife bios or through the RACs or Wildlife Board. In fact, predator managment and its relationship to mule deer survival is so complicated that I don't think anyone really understands the whole cause and effect relationship that exists. What we do know is that the level of coyote control to have any negligible effect on mule deer survival is so high that our coyote bounty is likely having no positive effect on mule deer survival at all and, in fact, could actually be increasing the number of yotes running around rather than helping it.

So, if it really makes you feel good to kill the coyote pups go ahead and do it and pocket the change it gives you...but, don't think you are making any kind of real impact on the mule deer herds!

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-mule-deer-wars_b_2302555

Just some food for thought: "the Idaho study included an attempted total extermination of coyotes in four of eight study areas. Across its first four years, the Idaho coyote study "managed" (killed) almost a thousand coyotes (at an average cost of $167 each) - resulting in negligible gains in deer "production." As report author Mark Hurley explains: "Killing coyotes costs about $1,000 for each [mule deer] buck that survives its first year and about $6,000 per 4.5-year-old trophy buck.... You would have to remove 70 percent of the coyotes each year to have an [ongoing] effect, and no one in the world is going to get 70 percent."

And: ""What's wrong with mule deer populations in the West today? It certainly isn't coyotes. Maybe we should use our limited resources in areas that will make real differences - like wide-scale habitat preservation and restoration of the West's public lands. Mule deer are not generalists in forage and habitat selection, as are elk. Nor can they thrive in our backyards like whitetails. Muleys are the terrestrial equivalent of salmon; quintessential ecosystem health indicators. If mule deer herds are in poor health, the land is in poor health."

So, kill the coyote pups or not....I don't care.


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## CGR (Aug 16, 2017)

shaner said:


> I think we (all Utah deer hunters) have become educated enough to know how brutal coyotes are on our beloved deer population,right?


After thinking more on this topic and reading more studies, I went back and read the original post. I find it ironic that the phrase "educated enough" is used. The majority of "educated" or actual scientific in depth studies suggest that coyotes are not "brutal" on deer populations. And unless you can kill more than 70% of the coyote population in a year, every year, for years, you'll actually be helping to increase the coyote population.

So go ahead and kill those 6 pups, because if you do she'll probably have 12 the next year along with the neighboring females.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

I am the OP and in my eyes even one single dead mule deer from a coyote is "brutal".
You may believe I care too much about our deer herds but so be it.


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## CGR (Aug 16, 2017)

shaner said:


> I am the OP and in my eyes even one single dead mule deer from a coyote is "brutal".
> You may believe I care too much about our deer herds but so be it.


I'm glad you care, and it's fine that you think a single dead mule deer from a coyote is brutal. 
I just wish people understood 2 things. 
1st: That there are other things that the frivolous bounty money could be going towards to alleviate symptoms that are more brutal to mule deer. Thinks like protecting habitat(specifically winter range), habitat improvement, habitat connectivity with wildlife crossing bridges etc.
2nd: If a government with incredible tax payer funds and killing resources couldn't/can't rid the landscape of coyotes, (actually the opposite has happened) what makes you think the small number of coyotes you kill would ever make a difference?
If you like hunting and killing coyotes that is fine with me, I'm in that same boat, but don't kid yourself into thinking that you killing them is actually helping in any significant way; because research suggests otherwise.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

> because research suggests otherwise.


Whenever I see words to this effect, my first thought is, "Who's research?". As the saying goes, Lies, **** lies, and statistics. Always look at the source of whatever is being cited as fact. Garunteed there's somebody with a political agenda on the other end, somewhere.

Like huffingtonpost for example; a *heavily *left leaning biased source, that is likely to cater to PETA and other left leaning organizations. If one wants to throw up a persuasive argument, you need to find an objective and politically unbiased source - and good luck with that in this day and age.


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## CGR (Aug 16, 2017)

Lone_Hunter said:


> > and good luck with that in this day and age.
> 
> 
> I'll agree to that if one is simply googling something. You're bound to get biased "fake news" if you will.
> ...


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

CGR said:


> Lone_Hunter said:
> 
> 
> > > and good luck with that in this day and age.
> ...


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I've spent pretty much my whole life on the winter range first as a trapper and then as a houndsman and have observed hundreds of interactions between mule deer and coyotes. My conclusion is that coyotes are given a bad rap.

First, not all coyotes are deer killers. Many have territories well above wintering herds or way down on the desert where deer seldom frequent. Their main diet are rabbits, mice, and insects and not deer. suspect many coyotes have lived their lives never having tasted deer yet they are still targets.

Second of all, coyotes are scavenges and not just predators. If you come across a deer carcass surrounded by coyote tracks it's easy to assume a coyote killed it. But was that really the case? Many times the deer died by some other means such as malnutrition or disease and the coyotes just stumbled on to it for a free meal. If you've been around livestock you know that sometimes they just die, it is no different with wildlife.

Third, of those deer coyotes do kill, what was their health status? Many times I've observed a weakened fawn as I've cruised by thinking to myself that that one wasn't going to make it, only to find the next day that coyotes had drug it down and finished it. Did the coyotes kill that deer? Yup. Had I stumbled onto the coyotes and killed them that day would have that deer survived? Nope.

All this goes back to wyo2utah's point that predator management is a complicated subject. Often times what we are seeing isn't really what is happening.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Whenever I see words to this effect, my first thought is, "Who's research?". As the saying goes, Lies, **** lies, and statistics. Always look at the source of whatever is being cited as fact. Garunteed there's somebody with a political agenda on the other end, somewhere.
> 
> Like huffingtonpost for example; a *heavily *left leaning biased source, that is likely to cater to PETA and other left leaning organizations. If one wants to throw up a persuasive argument, you need to find an objective and politically unbiased source - and good luck with that in this day and age.


Yes, the source---huffingtonpost was the secondary source. What was the primary source? The Idaho Fish and Game Department whose sole purpose in ever doing the study was to try and bring mule deer herds up! Also, the quotes from that huffingtonpost article were both from big game biologists and hunters who also were trying to increase mule deer herds.

So, the source is certainly biased but in the way WE, as hunters, should want them to be biased--towards preserving mule deer.

It is true that coyotes kill fawns and even mature deer, but to simply say that by killing a coyote we are helping increase or helping mule deer numbers is naive at best and a little ignorant.

Here is the peer reviewed study the article referenced from Google Scholar:

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/jwmg.126

And some more good reading on the subject:
https://www.wafwa.org/Documents and...r/FactSheets/MDWG Fact Sheet 01 Predators.pdf


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

W2U,
I may not be as educated as you but please refrain from calling me naive and ignorant.
Even though you and I disagree over the value of even one fawn deer/antelope being saved not once did I bash your intelligence as you did to mine.
If even one single deer is not killed due to dispatching coyotes, than that is a net benefit to our precious mule deer resource.
Thank you, Shane


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I would like to hear Johnnycake's thoughts on the matter.


Who's JohhnyCake?



3arabians said:


> I would guess he will be here shortly to "sooth"this one out. Probably too busy right now doing lawyer things or sorting out his briefcase full of Alaska tags at the moment.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Still don't know who he is but he's probably shooting coyotes.



johnnycake said:


> ......I'd try like hell to suppress my giggling as I pulled the trigger as quickly as possible.
> $300 is $300. Killing them as kiddos is just a bonus.


Told ya!!!!

All in all I think we are all of the mindset that we each have our own code we live by. Whatever that is we accept and respect it.

I, for one, have no issue taking down the pups, cute and cuddly or not. Remember that during the spring whenever you shoot an adult yote (if you shoot yotes) you are more than likely sentencing the pups in the den to death as well. If they don't succumb to starvation other predators will get them. Point being you killed the pups regardless.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

I'd have passed on the shot....until mama came home and made it $350. Depends on the location though, if the coyote population is already depressed in an area, why kill them there?

Our need to balance the urge to hunt and kill things against the empathy we feel is perfectly natural, no reason to beat yourself up over every single kill though. For me the decision to pull the trigger was made before I got in the truck and started driving because I plan what to hunt and harvest.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

MadHunter said:


> Who's JohhnyCake?
> 
> Still don't know who he is but he's probably shooting coyotes.


Proof positive I've been working too much lately.


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