# So here’s a stupid question



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Reading through the recent bear and lion guide books, looking at the HO and OTC opportunities for this year, noticed something that I hadn’t thought about before. It states that meat and the carcass from the animal are not required to be salvaged and it isn’t considered ‘waste’ for them to be left in the field… and I couldn’t find anywhere that it states what I did have to take from it upon harvest. Of course the hide is assumed to be taken and checked in to get a green hide tag from the division before it can be used for anything, but what if you didn’t want it? Let’s say you shot a bear that was all rubbed off on most places on it. Do you have to take it? Or could you place your tag on it and then leave the whole thing in the field and then report the kill to the division so it still counts towards the HO and numbers of harvested animals.

This is just a hypothetical question, so don’t get your panties in a wad and break out the ethics bible on me. I’m just wondering if you had to take any of it or could you cut the tag, walk away, report the kill and that’s it.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I’ll trump your ‘stupid question’ with a more ‘stupid question’.
Internal organs are NOT part of a carcass.
Now what……?


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I would imagine any cat or bear hide would have some value even if rubbed or in poor condition. Meaning the DWR assumes that folks are not going to leave something valuable in the field. Even a poor hide may have value to a taxidermist or some other person. My assumption is that this is a non issue and therefore not addressed in the guidebook. Like antlers as proof of sex, people find value in antlers (even spike elk) so it's assumed they would be taken out with the ungulate meat therefor would be assumed to accompany the carcass and help determine proof of sex. Just my guess regarding this issue--I could be wrong


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MrShane said:


> I’ll trump your ‘stupid question’ with a more ‘stupid question’.
> Internal organs are NOT part of a carcass.
> Now what……?


Yeah that’s a whole other can of worms. Which is also completely stupid.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Airborne said:


> I would imagine any cat or bear hide would have some value even if rubbed or in poor condition. Meaning the DWR assumes that folks are not going to leave something valuable in the field. Even a poor hide may have value to a taxidermist or some other person. My assumption is that this is a non issue and therefore not addressed in the guidebook. Like antlers as proof of sex, people find value in antlers (even spike elk) so it's assumed they would be taken out with the ungulate meat therefor would be assumed to accompany the carcass and help determine proof of sex. Just my guess regarding this issue--I could be wrong


I’m sure you’re right on your thinking and assumptions. But there are people out there who will leave antlers laying on a hillside or in a ditch because they didn’t want anything but the meat. Not many guys, but there are a few. A few years back I found a fresh deer carcass where EVERY ounce of meat had been cut off and removed. I was very impressed with the work they put into getting all of it, especially given how far away from the road or trail they were. All that was left was the spine, rib cage and head still attached, like a 140s 3x4 buck. I wondered if they were going to make another trip back for the head, but a year later when I walked through there again, it was still there.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

That's an interesting question. I've had clients show up with a sealed bear skull. They left the hide on the mtn- covered with ticks. 
As for the deer- it is my understanding that there needs to be proof of s3x and proof of legality (antlers). So would be a possible violation. 

In Colorado, you must have the tag attached to the portion of meat with the proof of s3x attached. Antlers don't count for a quartered/boned carcass.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Packout said:


> That's an interesting question. I've had clients show up with a sealed bear skull. They left the hide on the mtn- covered with ticks.
> As for the deer- it is my understanding that there needs to be proof of s3x and proof of legality (antlers). So would be a possible violation.
> 
> In Colorado, you must have the tag attached to the portion of meat with the proof of s3x attached. Antlers don't count for a quartered/boned carcass.


Sex organs need to be attached to the largest portion of meat. And antlers do not count as proof of sex in utah, at least according to a particular clown LEO from central utah.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

MooseMeat said:


> Sex organs need to be attached to the largest portion of meat. And antlers do not count as proof of sex in utah, at least according to a particular clown LEO from central utah.


I think that must be the LEO that checked me on my Dutton Bull hunt.
I had my tag on the antlers/head, four quarters in bags, and one more bag holding the inner and outer loins.
This whole mess was hanging in a line in a tree next to my trailer when he dropped in on me.
I was lucky to only get a warning.
Blew my mind.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

They may be taking the literal definition of meat as it is written in the field regs on page 50

Your tag must remain with the largest portion
of the animal’s meat until all of the meat
has been eaten.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MrShane said:


> I think that must be the LEO that checked me on my Dutton Bull hunt.
> I had my tag on the antlers/head, four quarters in bags, and one more bag holding the inner and outer loins.
> This whole mess was hanging in a line in a tree next to my trailer when he dropped in on me.
> I was lucky to only get a warning.
> Blew my mind.


Not to get too far off topic, but it is interesting that they want us to identify the sex of the animal at a distance and harvest it based on its obvious physical features, antlers or lack thereof, but afterwards having that same identifying feature isn’t good enough and they want to see the actual organs attached to a piece of meat. Bison and mtn goat are the only 2 animals in utah where I can think of that would actually matter for sexing purposes. Other than that, The ones who like to make an issue out of that whole thing, would accuse you of polluting the environment if you farted in their presence. Most are pretty easy to get along with. But every now and then, you do run across one that is impossible to please, no matter how hard you try.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I don't know why any person hunting a bear or lion would leave the pelt in the woods to begin with. That is the obvious purpose for hunting said critters I think. When I get my bear on the ground this fall, depending on how big he is, I will skin it out on the Mt. as to the way I will Taxi it. If he's a giant, I will do a lifesize and a dorsal cut will be the way I skin. The "berrys" will be attached to the skin and the sheath of the pennis. If I want a rug, I will belly cut. There shouldn't be any question on the sex at all.

As for the meat, I will take the everything but the guts. I better get the Gallbladder too, I hear that's great after it drys out and can be used for medicinal purposes.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I brought mine out whole and then skinned at camp in a tree.
My skull and ‘swizzle stick’ are displayed in my house, my rug should be completed in a month or two, and I had all the meat processed in to burger/sausage/roasts.
My wife/family/friends have all enjoyed the meat and the hunt experience was awesome.
I hope your hunt goes great also!


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## Hill Hunter (Dec 1, 2017)

MooseMeat said:


> Sex organs need to be attached to the largest portion of meat. And antlers do not count as proof of sex in utah, at least according to a particular clown LEO from central utah.



And what LEOs enforce is distinctly different from what is written in rule. The actual rule says that the "the head or sex organs must remain attached to the largest portion of the *carcass*". Not meat. So in the case of quartering and packing out an animal, that would be the spine/ribcage/neck/pelvis piece. Rule says you are supposed to leave evidence of sex in the field.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Hill Hunter said:


> And what LEOs enforce is distinctly different from what is written in rule. The actual rule says that the "the head or sex organs must remain attached to the largest portion of the *carcass*". Not meat. So in the case of quartering and packing out an animal, that would be the spine/ribcage/neck/pelvis piece. Rule says you are supposed to leave evidence of sex in the field.


You pack out the spine/rib cage/pelvis when you quarter an animal for packing? Why?


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## Hill Hunter (Dec 1, 2017)

MooseMeat said:


> You pack out the spine/rib cage/pelvis when you quarter an animal for packing? Why?


I do not pack it out the spine/rib cage/pelvis. But the rule says sex organs must remain attached to the largest portion of the carcass. So if you leave the spine/rib cage/pelvis the rule says you would also need to leave evidence of sex attached to it. I was just pointing out the rule is poorly written.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I would hope that an officer would understand what it takes for any animal to be processed for packing any distance. The way my luck goes, I could be the exception to my remark.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Me thinks there is a lot of over thinking going on. If you shoot one and don't recover it or don't want to deal with it, consider your tag punched and walk away. Apparently DWR doesn't really care about wanton waste when it comes to bears. Relying on self reporting, go figure.

I'll wait for the stories of multiple bears wounded and lost, left unclaimed or DWR prosecuting for wanton waste. If the rule is boar or sow only evidence of sex rules apply. Nobody expects the tag being affixed to the carcass left on the mountain.

I'll bet half the rules were written before DNA testing became the rage. And the rules are written to minimize having to resort to expensive tests for identification.


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