# Tickets being given



## taxidermist

Talked to a fellow fisherman that intended to fish the berry from his toon boat over the weekend. The DWR stopped him and asked for ID. He (DWR) told him to leave the county and head home because he wasn't a county resident. 


I heard they were checking plates along the highway at Deer Creek Res. and ticketing those weren't from Wasatch County. 


Be careful where you go until this "crap" is over.


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## Vanilla

Strawberry this past weekend on a pontoon boat?


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## taxidermist

Vanilla said:


> Strawberry this past weekend on a pontoon boat?


Yup! He said the ice was off around the edge of the bank. I don't know where at, I didn't ask because I don't live in the county.:sad::hurt:


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## DallanC

Vanilla said:


> Strawberry this past weekend on a pontoon boat?


Probably on the SC side along the east cliffs. It always melts there first with reflective heat off the rocks. Still a very long hike from the turn off.

-DallanC


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## Vanilla

Was thinking maybe the small open water at the Ladders too. 

My guess is most of the lake is still covered in 12+ inches of ice.

And I’m just fine if it stays that way for a few weeks, since Wasatch County has cut me off.


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## brisket

That’s great the ice-off is on, but we’re missing the point of the post. People from other counties are being ticketed. Will those hunting turkeys in Wasatch county receive tickets too?


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## Vanilla

brisket said:


> Will those hunting turkeys in Wasatch county receive tickets too?


Will they? I don't know. Can they? If they are not county residents, yes.


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## taxidermist

brisket said:


> That's great the ice-off is on, but we're missing the point of the post. People from other counties are being ticketed. Will those hunting turkeys in Wasatch county receive tickets too?


If it were me that had a LE bird tag, I'd be talking with the DWR to see what "THEY" intend to do. Either allow the tag to be surrendered without loss of points, or let you hunt out of the county.


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## Jedidiah

Now this is crap. I understand the state park closure, but Wasatch County gets to say you can't enjoy the outdoors in their entire county? Wasatch County is going to get the same thing from me that Mantua gets, a complete refusal to spend money in the area. I'll go fish Jordanelle, Deer Creek and Strawberry in the future but I'll make a strong effort not to buy gas or food there in the future.


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## riptheirlips

*Fishing*

Question, So if I live in Davis County I cannot go fish at East Canyon, or the Weber river???


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## riptheirlips

Jedidiah said:


> Now this is crap. I understand the state park closure, but Wasatch County gets to say you can't enjoy the outdoors in their entire county? Wasatch County is going to get the same thing from me that Mantua gets, a complete refusal to spend money in the area. I'll go fish Jordanelle, Deer Creek and Strawberry in the future but I'll make a strong effort not to buy gas or food there in the future.


I do not understand how they can stop us from providing food to our families.


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## Jedidiah

Zero recreation. Here is the order:

https://www.heberut.gov/DocumentCen...-Stay-Safe-Stay-Home-Order-Combined-3-30-2020


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## Jedidiah

The other stupid thing is that if you expect to restrict 90% of the population of the state to outdoor recreation within three counties, how fast do you think the virus is going to spread in those counties? Do they really think things could go well after things explode for the majority of people in the state? We've got dumb people in our state and county governments.


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## riptheirlips

Jedidiah said:


> Zero recreation. Here is the order:
> 
> https://www.heberut.gov/DocumentCen...-Stay-Safe-Stay-Home-Order-Combined-3-30-2020


It does say a person can leave their residence for essential food item 8. Fish for my food is essential. I am going fishing today.


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## brisket

Looks like the rural counties are finally getting what they’ve always wanted. Keeping the city riff-raff out.
Never let a crisis go to waste.


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## Jedidiah

Yes, it definitely does seem like they're taking advantage for that long-standing bias. Oh well, county and city governments understand one thing in the long run and that's dollars. Don't spend your money there for a few years, see how that fixes their wagon.


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## backcountry

taxidermist said:


> brisket said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's great the ice-off is on, but we're missing the point of the post. People from other counties are being ticketed. Will those hunting turkeys in Wasatch county receive tickets too?
> 
> 
> 
> If it were me that had a LE bird tag, I'd be talking with the DWR to see what "THEY" intend to do. Either allow the tag to be surrendered without loss of points, or let you hunt out of the county.
Click to expand...

They are offering full refunds and, I believe, reimbursement of points, including one for this year, for Covid-19 related issues. Just need to turn it in by the 10th.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/887-hunting-fishing-utah-covid-19.html

https://wildlife.utah.gov/online-surrender.html?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery

https://www.gohunt.com/read/news/ut...-and-turkey-permits-due-to-covid-19#gs.35odti


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## RandomElk16

You will find my happy butt on National/Federal land hunting and hiking until the Federal gov says I can't. Regardless of county.

Happy to be a part of the Federal vs State fights if I was issued a ticket.


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## Packout

Needed to visit Sam's Club in Provo and there were Wasatch County residents there shopping. I know them and they weren't wearing masks. I imagine Wasatch County residents are shopping Costco and Trader Joe's too. It would be fun to catch one of the Wasatch County Commissioners shopping in Utah or SLC Valley..... Friend in Heber Valley says it is nice to fish without all the people. Shows how asinine the whole thing is.


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## RandomElk16

Packout said:


> Needed to visit Sam's Club in Provo and there were Wasatch County residents there shopping. I know them and they weren't wearing masks. I imagine Wasatch County residents are shopping Costco and Trader Joe's too. It would be fun to catch one of the Wasatch County Commissioners shopping in Utah or SLC Valley..... Friend in Heber Valley says it is nice to fish without all the people. Shows how asinine the whole thing is.


100%.

These counties doing the strict lockdowns also seem the ones most dependent on other counties.


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## DallanC

Take your license plates with you when you leave your vehicle. 

-DallanC


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## Slockem

So this just applies to Wasatch County, right?


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## willfish4food

It's crazy to me how many freedoms people are willing to give up for this virus. That order states, "All public and private gatherings of any number of people occurring outside a household or living unit with people who are not part of the same household are prohibited, except for the limited purposes permitted by this Order."

I don't know about you, but I'm getting pretty fed up with governments telling me where I can and can't go, who I can and can't associate with, which businesses can and can't stay open, etc.

I understand the reasoning behind the restrictions. I get that they are trying to look out for the public welfare. But, I think they have overstepped their bounds. Give recommendations and guidelines to help people make informed decisions. Maybe set up new health requirements and maximum occupancy limits to stay open, but let the businesses have a chance to meet the requirements instead of just shutting them down. I have a real problem with the Government picking and choosing who gets to stay open. I have a real problem with Governments telling me where I'm allowed to travel and who I'm allowed to associate with.

Maybe it's just me. I moved out of the city to the county because I wanted less Government telling me what I can't do on my own land.

Then there's Alachua County in Florida, next county over from where I grew up. They decided who can stay open and have a page where you can report any business that dares to go against their orders. I'm not going to compare this to Nazi Germany, but it sure doesn't look like the America that I love.

Edit: Alachua County website is at: https://alachuacounty.us/covid-19/Pages/default.aspx. Click on the, "Report an Emergency Order Violation" link.


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## willfish4food

To be clear, I'm not even against most of the things in the orders given by various Governments. I've not gone to visit anyone and haven't talked with my neighbors except to yell from my yard to theirs in over 3 weeks. I just don't think it's the Government's place to enact and enforce them with penalties.


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## DallanC

Sweden had it right. They are going to come out of this stronger than any other nation.

They did NOT lock down, they did NOT close most businesses. They said if you are an "at risk" person, take appropriate steps to protect yourself. Almost all their small businesses are still going strong, their economy is strong, no-one is in danger of losing their jobs.

At most, they just restricted gatherings of 50 or more. Good job Sweden /golfclap

-DallanC


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## backcountry

DallanC said:


> Sweden had it right. They are going to come out of this stronger than any other nation.
> 
> They did NOT lock down, they did NOT close most businesses. They said if you are an "at risk" person, take appropriate steps to protect yourself. Almost all their small businesses are still going strong, their economy is strong, no-one is in danger of losing their jobs.
> 
> At most, they just restricted gatherings of 50 or more. Good job Sweden /golfclap
> 
> -DallanC


A little early to know that. We do know they have a higher death rate per 1 million citizens and have conducted fewer tests per million citizens as well.

Not to mention their government is warning that because of their strategy this could take months not weeks to mitigate.

We won't likely know who made the "right" decisions or who actually got lucky for a long while. Sweden could come out ahead of this but only time will tell. Or in the coming weeks they could suffer the full weight of such lax policy. Time will tell.


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## taxidermist

Slockem said:


> So this just applies to Wasatch County, right?


Every county in the great state of Utah.


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## DallanC

taxidermist said:


> Every county in the great state of Utah.


The linked order is for Wasatch County. The rest of the state has restrictions on the parks only.

-DallanC


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## High Desert Elk

DallanC said:


> Sweden had it right. They are going to come out of this stronger than any other nation.
> 
> They did NOT lock down, they did NOT close most businesses. They said if you are an "at risk" person, take appropriate steps to protect yourself. Almost all their small businesses are still going strong, their economy is strong, no-one is in danger of losing their jobs.
> 
> At most, they just restricted gatherings of 50 or more. Good job Sweden /golfclap
> 
> -DallanC


Couldn't have said it better and agree 101%. Have those who are high risk stay at home or wear masks so everyone else can go about keeping the world going. Being shut in long term (which now means over a month) is about the most asinine thing that can be done.


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## Critter

North Korea and China have had zero numbers coming in for quite a while now......-O,-


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## backcountry

Actually other counties have restricted recreation as well, especially in SE Utah.


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## backcountry

High Desert Elk said:


> DallanC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sweden had it right. They are going to come out of this stronger than any other nation.
> 
> They did NOT lock down, they did NOT close most businesses. They said if you are an "at risk" person, take appropriate steps to protect yourself. Almost all their small businesses are still going strong, their economy is strong, no-one is in danger of losing their jobs.
> 
> At most, they just restricted gatherings of 50 or more. Good job Sweden /golfclap
> 
> -DallanC
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't have said it better and agree 101%. Have those who are high risk stay at home or wear masks so everyone else can go about keeping the world going. Being shut in long term (which now means over a month) is about the most asinine thing that can be done.
Click to expand...

There is evidence to the contrary. NY didn't shut down in time and it burned threw their cities fast.

Even essential industry is being affected. Amazon has had to close multiple warehouses. It's hitting meat processing facilities now and several have been closed. All of those are cases of non-high risk individuals getting sick and impacting industry. Any industry with close contact would have likely sustained similar outcomes without measures beyond what you describe. Look at how it's spreading through Navy ships.

We have more than a little evidence of what happens when you just let it burn through communities without mitigation. And having high risk individuals stay home really only reduces pressure on ICU beds as American data shows 30-60 year olds are putting high demand on hospital beds as well, even with most of the country under government mandated social distancing.

And we still don't know long term impact on lungs and hearts of anybody. Cytokin storms and the elevated inflammation this causes for multiple weeks on the body could have devastating long term implications.

Ever had a CT of your lungs? I have permanent damage from a medical issue that was never diagnosed nor did I ever experience symptoms for. This level of infection is bound to permanently hurt tens or hundreds of thousands individuals in this country in ways we can't understand yet.

This isn't just about high risk groups. Maybe we could have staggered responses differently but we never had the time to triage the situation that way because we wasted 6 weeks between the travel ban and actually preparing (PPE, context tracing, communication, etc).


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## DallanC

*YAWN*

When I get my proof of civil disobedience, I'm going to frame it and put it on the wall next to my reloading press.


-DallanC


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## CrayDad

backcountry said:


> Actually other counties have restricted recreation as well, especially in SE Utah.


Which counties besides Wasatch? Haven't heard this before.


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## goosefreak

So, I have 2 brothers and 2 uncles who are law enforcement officers. I asked 1 brother and 1 uncle specifically about this question. Explained the situation.

Both told me without pause that they cannot enforce this “law”. Both of them saying that the county is flexing muscle they don’t have.

So I said “yeah but, the Governor says”

And they both told me it doesn’t matter because it is a direct violation of my constitutional rights.

I oppose this county hopefully order but, I slightly argued logic about it with both my brother and uncle to try and make it as un biased as possible. They didn’t budge one bit on what they had to say about it. 

I went on a ride along with my uncle years ago. He told me, that most of their tactics are scare tactics and 90% of people give themselves up without even knowing it. He said most people don’t know their rights at which point he said it makes his job easier..

just because you receive a citation doesn’t mean it’s been enforced. A citation is a non admission of guilt court appearance notice that you can simple pay the fee OR face a judge and plea your case at which point the judge will determine the appropriate course of action. 

It’s not enforced until it goes through the courthouse and a judge bangs his hammer.

So in the spirit of this ridiculous scenario, if an LEO issued me a citation, I would remind him that I will plea not guilty and make him show up to every court appearance until a verdict came out.

Remember it’s not the fishing part that is your constitutional right (well, kinda)

Its the entire action that is taking place, its public land the county doesn't own it

It violates Amendments
14 and 1 and 4


Backcountry, please take it easy on me...


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## 7mm Reloaded

Critter said:


> North Korea and China have had zero numbers coming in for quite a while now......-O,-


 And Russia. They have the don't tell don't "have" policy right now.:shock:


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## BPturkeys

Some of the Eastern counties in Washington state considered closures similar to what some of the Utah counties are trying to pull...Washington state quickly reminded them that this was unconstitutional and they backed off. The first time this goes to court in Utah, and it will if the counties involved start overstepping their legal authority by issuing tickets, it will be adjudicated similarly in Utah. Counties can no more close their county than Utah, or any other state, can close its borders. They are bluffing and they know it. Attorneys(county attorneys this time) alway advise "just go for it" and let the courts decide.
Counties have NO legal authority to restrict travel between counties in the state and most certainly have no authority to restrict trespass and use of Federal public property within their country or anyplace else. 
Of course, I am not the judge, so this is all just speculation on my part. But as it stands, the residents of Wasatch county can go turkey hunting in their county, but if you live in any other county it's NO HUNTING FOR YOU.


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## Vanilla

goosefreak said:


> So, I have 2 brothers and 2 uncles who are law enforcement officers. I asked 1 brother and 1 uncle specifically about this question. Explained the situation.
> 
> Both told me without pause that they cannot enforce this "law". Both of them saying that the county is flexing muscle they don't have.
> 
> So I said "yeah but, the Governor says"
> 
> And they both told me it doesn't matter because it is a direct violation of my constitutional rights.


A couple thoughts on this one: Let's remind ourselves that there are no police officers in Utah alive today that have lived through a global pandemic where these actions have been taken. They don't have experience in this area of the law, so their opinions are just that, opinions. No more valid than yours. It is not a police officer's job to determine what laws are enforceable and what laws are not.

And police officers are NOT constitutional law experts. That is not their role, they have not been educated on it, and they don't have experience arguing it. They are absolutely entitled to their opinions on it, but they don't carry a ton of weight in the scheme of things.



goosefreak said:


> just because you receive a citation doesn't mean it's been enforced. A citation is a non admission of guilt court appearance notice that you can simple pay the fee OR face a judge and plea your case at which point the judge will determine the appropriate course of action.


Your procedure is incorrect. A citation is issued with a promise to appear in court in lieu of arrest and booking into jail. If you want to get clever with a police officer about a citation, he/she may just elect to arrest you and book you into jail to ensure your appearance before a magistrate. You are correct that you still get your "day in court," but that could be a bench trial, a jury trial, or if you want to challenge the constitutionality of these county health orders, taking it up the chain to the court of appeals, and maybe the Utah Supreme Court. That's going to take a couple years, at best, and be VERY expensive for you to do. Unless you're indigent, which if you're working full time and able to fund the expensive habit of hunting (especially goose hunting), you won't be indigent. A citation is simply requiring you to show up in court. Some offenses can just be paid on the citation, but not all.



goosefreak said:


> So in the spirit of this ridiculous scenario, if an LEO issued me a citation, I would remind him that I will plea not guilty and make him show up to every court appearance until a verdict came out.


That officer would just laugh at you. Talk about an empty threat! First, officers are not required to show up at every court appearance. Only when subpoenaed when evidence will be taken. An evidentiary hearing or a trial, in this case. This citation would be a class B misdemeanor, so you won't have a right to a preliminary hearing. Go ahead and flex that muscle. You wouldn't be the first, and the officer will be there when they are required by law to be there. Much to a lot of people's dismay that have been told "Just set your speeding ticket for a trial, the officer won't show up!"



goosefreak said:


> It violates Amendments
> 14 and 1 and 4


Maybe. It's possible you are right. But the constitutional analysis will be did the government action have a rational basis. That is not a high bar for the government to meet, and in this case, I think it may be held that the government did have that rational basis, and would survive constitutional muster. I go back and forth on that in my head every day. Probably because I want it to be unconstitutional, but I'm not sure it is.


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## Vanilla

BPturkeys said:


> But as it stands, the residents of Wasatch county can go turkey hunting in their county, but if you live in any other county it's NO HUNTING FOR YOU.


This is where I continue to think that the order may be unconstitutional. If they would have closed off recreation for everyone, I think it stands. But to pass the rational basis test, they can't have disparate treatment between similarly situated groups. Would the court declare the class of people "Wasatch County residents" and "non-Wasatch County residents?" Or would the class be "valid turkey permit holders." The definition of the classifications of people would be very important in a case like this. If you could successfully argue that the classification is legal permit holders, then the chances of not meeting the rational basis test are much higher.

Now we're geeking out on constitutional law, with a criminal component to it. This is my kind of day!!!


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## Catherder

Vanilla said:


> This is where I continue to think that the order may be unconstitutional. If they would have closed off recreation for everyone, I think it stands. But to pass the rational basis test, they can't have disparate treatment between similarly situated groups. Would the court declare the class of people "Wasatch County residents" and "non-Wasatch County residents?" Or would the class be "valid turkey permit holders." The definition of the classifications of people would be very important in a case like this. If you could successfully argue that the classification is legal permit holders, then the chances of not meeting the rational basis test are much higher.
> 
> Now we're geeking out on constitutional law, with a criminal component to it. This is my kind of day!!!


Keep going! it's a lot more interesting than me droning on about the daily covid 19 statistics or grumbling about the LoPro and Wasatch county.


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## middlefork

It is not too hard to find out what the government is allowed to do in the name of "public health". The laws go back a long way.

Fox13 was reporting this morning the closure of the Swell and Grand Staircase.


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## middlefork

DallanC said:


> *YAWN*
> 
> When I get my proof of civil disobedience, I'm going to frame it and put it on the wall next to my reloading press.
> 
> -DallanC


Shouldn't be too hard. Just snap a picture of someone out in public without a mask.

A long journey starts with a single step.


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## backcountry

CrayDad said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually other counties have restricted recreation as well, especially in SE Utah.
> 
> 
> 
> Which counties besides Wasatch? Haven't heard this before.
Click to expand...

SE Utah Public Health Department ordered the closure of all public lands to camping for out of county residents weeks ago.

Order is linked in this article:

https://www.kuer.org/post/health-department-closes-hotels-moab-tourists-next-30-days#stream/0


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## goosefreak

Vanilla, as I’ve told you before. I have quite the experience with How receiving citations work.

With respect to the officers, I can recall a couple instances where I politely told the officers to shove it up their a$$, They did not laugh nor was a citation issued


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## BPturkeys

backcountry said:


> SE Utah Public Health Department ordered the closure of all public lands to camping for out of county residents weeks ago.
> 
> Order is linked in this article:
> 
> https://www.kuer.org/post/health-department-closes-hotels-moab-tourists-next-30-days#stream/0


The counties or any other "official" government can say about anything they want, but until dubious power grabs are challenged in court and adjudicated constitutional or not, it's all a bluff. If we abide by the orders, the bluff works, if not...well, legally the courts must settle it. 
I personally don't think the county has a leg to stand on when they try and close Federal public land and the legal use there of. 
Now, that said, I am probably not the guy that will make that challenge but I sorely hope it is made and the courts slap a few local knuckleheads on the wrist. This power grab in my opinion can not and should not go unchallenged in America or any of it's beautiful states.


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## backcountry

BPturkeys said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> SE Utah Public Health Department ordered the closure of all public lands to camping for out of county residents weeks ago.
> 
> Order is linked in this article:
> 
> https://www.kuer.org/post/health-department-closes-hotels-moab-tourists-next-30-days#stream/0
> 
> 
> 
> The counties or any other "official" government can say about anything they want, but until dubious power grabs are challenged in court and adjudicated constitutional or not, it's all a bluff. If we abide by the orders, the bluff works, if not...well, legally the courts must settle it.
> I personally don't think the county has a leg to stand on when they try and close Federal public land and the legal use there of.
> Now, that said, I am probably not the guy that will make that challenge but I sorely hope it is made and the courts slap a few local knuckleheads on the wrist. This power grab in my opinion can not and should not go unchallenged in America or any of it's beautiful states.
Click to expand...

It's not a bluff. You can have your legal opinion but it's currently being enforced as others have said. If it's challenged and overturned so be it but that takes months or years to settle.

The local health authorities clearly think they have the means to do so. I actually agree with Vanilla that a better order (by legal merit) would be a complete closure, not just to out of county residents. I changed course on that in the first thread because I'm not sure the epidemiological basis would survive a challenge, even if it's a legit scientific rational.

But calling this a bluff ignores a lot of context. Especially now that so many other very conservative counties, like Kane, are doing the same. The writing has been on the wall that mass travel during the Easter Holiday poses a unique risk to these county's citizens.

Like it or not staying home is the only way we stop further spread of this disease. It needs us to distribute itself.

And if this was more than a temporary closure I would likely agree with some of your assessment. But it's currently tempered and directed at a unique threat.


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## BPturkeys

backcountry said:


> It's not a bluff. You can have your legal opinion but it's currently being enforced as others have said. If it's challenged and overturned so be it but that takes months or years to settle.
> 
> The local health authorities clearly think they have the means to do so. I actually agree with Vanilla that a better order (by legal merit) would be a complete closure, not just to out of county residents. I changed course on that in the first thread because I'm not sure the epidemiological basis would survive a challenge, even if it's a legit scientific rational.
> 
> But calling this a bluff ignores a lot of context. Especially now that so many other very conservative counties, like Kane, are doing the same. The writing has been on the wall that mass travel during the Easter Holiday poses a unique risk to these county's citizens.
> 
> Like it or not staying home is the only way we stop further spread of this disease. It needs us to distribute itself.
> 
> And if this was more than a temporary closure I would likely agree with some of your assessment. But it's currently tempered and directed at a unique threat.


Well sure, but when that 4th grade bully says hand over your lunch money cause I am really hungry...his emergency doesn't give him a legal right to deprive you of you liberty. If we just hand over our rights and freedoms to some low level bureaucrat( heath department officials, despite their Napoleonic fantasies, are, at the end of the day...just low level bureaucrats) in the name of an emergency, brother this country is in sad shape.
If county closures are called for, the order must come from the Governor, no other person. Counties are not free and independent entities...they exist at the pleasure of the state, just as cities can't control the counties..and on down the line. 
Without his protocol, you end up with local politicians from one county/city/agency/etc making rules and law way beyond their jurisdictions...i.e, Wasatch County Heath Dept is telling you that their citizens can hunt turkeys in Wasatch county, but you poor saps from Utah county...stay the He** home!


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## PBH

Who is the authoritative law enforcement entity in a county? is it the Sheriff? Or does a State agency supercede the county agency?


I'm pretty sure it's the local Sheriff.


I'm still waiting for Piute County to realize the situation they are in, and take advantage by permanently shutting out the rest of the state. It's going to be open grazing pretty soon.

is Ammon Bundy on his way yet?


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## taxidermist

I support my local Sheriff...………… Couldn't resist. 


I look at it this way - Why not respect what's being asked of us as a population and abide by the requests? Is it going to hurt someone that bad if they don't get out camping for Easter or Memorial Day?? Who knows, maybe the Doctors that know what the He!! they're talking about are correct. 


Most have cabin fever and are at whit's end. Lets give it a few weeks and see what happens. 


OK, now you can chime in and place me on the cross.


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## backcountry

BPturkeys said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a bluff. You can have your legal opinion but it's currently being enforced as others have said. If it's challenged and overturned so be it but that takes months or years to settle.
> 
> The local health authorities clearly think they have the means to do so. I actually agree with Vanilla that a better order (by legal merit) would be a complete closure, not just to out of county residents. I changed course on that in the first thread because I'm not sure the epidemiological basis would survive a challenge, even if it's a legit scientific rational.
> 
> But calling this a bluff ignores a lot of context. Especially now that so many other very conservative counties, like Kane, are doing the same. The writing has been on the wall that mass travel during the Easter Holiday poses a unique risk to these county's citizens.
> 
> Like it or not staying home is the only way we stop further spread of this disease. It needs us to distribute itself.
> 
> And if this was more than a temporary closure I would likely agree with some of your assessment. But it's currently tempered and directed at a unique threat.
> 
> 
> 
> Well sure, but when that 4th grade bully says hand over your lunch money cause I am really hungry...his emergency doesn't give him a legal right to deprive you of you liberty. If we just hand over our rights and freedoms to some low level bureaucrat( heath department officials, despite their Napoleonic fantasies, are, at the end of the day...just low level bureaucrats) in the name of an emergency, brother this country is in sad shape.
> If county closures are called for, the order must come from the Governor, no other person. Counties are not free and independent entities...they exist at the pleasure of the state, just as cities can't control the counties..and on down the line.
> Without his protocol, you end up with local politicians from one county/city/agency/etc making rules and law way beyond their jurisdictions...i.e, Wasatch County Heath Dept is telling you that their citizens can hunt turkeys in Wasatch county, but you poor saps from Utah county...stay the He** home!
Click to expand...

They are literally making temporary orders confined to their respective jurisdictions.

The Governor has vocalized during press conferences that he recognizes county Health Departments can and may be more restrictive than his voluntary directive. He's vocalized solidarity with their situation. I'm not sure your hypothesis carries much accuracy about who gets to make such decisions.

This may be new to many of us but such powers have existed for a while. I'm not sure if County mandates on federal land have been tested but ultimately few of us on this forum have the knowledge to properly analyze that complex question. I'm guessing most people don't have the resources to formally challenge the order in the full fashion it would take.


----------



## DallanC

taxidermist said:


> I support my local Sheriff...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Couldn't resist.


Ohhhh a great movie I need to rewatch.



> I look at it this way - Why not respect what's being asked of us as a population and abide by the requests? Is it going to hurt someone that bad if they don't get out camping for Easter or Memorial Day?? Who knows, maybe the Doctors that know what the He!! they're talking about are correct.


Some things only happen once a year. Does someone really want to make the argument that hitting strawberry for ice off is going to increase the exposure rate for CoronaVirus any more than hitting up costco for your monthly medications?

Where is the outrage for the infection rate and death rate of the normal flu? Why are there no lockdowns or other things yearly for that? Look at this data from Johns Hopkins:

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...ronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu


> *Infections*
> COVID-19: Approximately 1,446,557 cases worldwide; 399,929 cases in the U.S. as of Apr. 8, 2020.*
> 
> Flu: Estimated 1 billion cases worldwide; 9.3 million to 45 million cases in the U.S. per year.
> 
> *Deaths*
> COVID-19: Approximately 83,149 deaths reported worldwide; 12,911 deaths in the U.S., as of Apr. 8, 2020.*
> 
> Flu: 291,000 to 646,000 deaths worldwide; 12,000 to 61,000 deaths in the U.S. per year.





> Most have cabin fever and are at whit's end. Lets give it a few weeks and see what happens.


More infected people, more recovered people, more deaths... but its nothing different than already happens every single year in this country.



> OK, now you can chime in and place me on the cross.


Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses, you share it in respectful ways so /thumbsup

-DallanC


----------



## CrayDad

Looks like these are the UT counties (so far) that have created restrictions:


Salt Lake
Davis
Weber / Morgan
Summit
Wasatch
Tooele


----------



## taxidermist

I think when this is all over and winds down, we should have a Poker Tournament and see who has game. ??? I suck at bluffing so, I'll be a judge.  Wait, was I bluffing or being strait up truthful?


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> I'm still waiting for Piute County to realize the situation they are in, and take advantage by permanently shutting out the rest of the state. It's going to be open grazing pretty soon.
> 
> is Ammon Bundy on his way yet?


If I know the folks in Piute County, (and I do know a couple actually) they are at least thinking about it.

Do you think they will at least let the DWR stocking trucks in to plant Otter Creek?


----------



## middlefork

CrayDad said:


> Looks like these are the UT counties (so far) that have created restrictions:
> 
> Salt Lake
> Davis
> Weber / Morgan
> Summit
> Wasatch
> Tooele


https://kane.utah.gov/gov/dept/sher...ion-covid-19-restriction-ordinance-o-2020-10/


----------



## PBH

San Juan


----------



## PBH

State of Utah:

https://www.ksl.com/article/4673951...claration-before-heading-to-utah-herbert-says


----------



## backcountry

DallanC said:


> taxidermist said:
> 
> 
> 
> I support my local Sheriff...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Couldn't resist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhhh a great movie I need to rewatch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I look at it this way - Why not respect what's being asked of us as a population and abide by the requests? Is it going to hurt someone that bad if they don't get out camping for Easter or Memorial Day?? Who knows, maybe the Doctors that know what the He!! they're talking about are correct.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Some things only happen once a year. Does someone really want to make the argument that hitting strawberry for ice off is going to increase the exposure rate for CoronaVirus any more than hitting up costco for your monthly medications?
> 
> Where is the outrage for the infection rate and death rate of the normal flu? Why are there no lockdowns or other things yearly for that? Look at this data from Johns Hopkins:
> 
> https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...ronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu
> 
> 
> 
> *Infections*
> COVID-19: Approximately 1,446,557 cases worldwide; 399,929 cases in the U.S. as of Apr. 8, 2020.*
> 
> Flu: Estimated 1 billion cases worldwide; 9.3 million to 45 million cases in the U.S. per year.
> 
> *Deaths*
> COVID-19: Approximately 83,149 deaths reported worldwide; 12,911 deaths in the U.S., as of Apr. 8, 2020.*
> 
> Flu: 291,000 to 646,000 deaths worldwide; 12,000 to 61,000 deaths in the U.S. per year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most have cabin fever and are at whit's end. Lets give it a few weeks and see what happens.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> More infected people, more recovered people, more deaths... but its nothing different than already happens every single year in this country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, now you can chime in and place me on the cross.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses, you share it in respectful ways so /thumbsup
> 
> -DallanC
Click to expand...

Comparing seasonal flu numbers to Covid-19 isn't exactly apples to apples. For seasonal flu we have testing ready to go in the autumn and available for any doctor that wants to use it; not so with this novel virus. We also have infrastructure and medical treatments in place that greatly reduce the burden of the disease on individual patients and society at large.

Per deaths... actual registered deaths from seasonal flu tend to initially be limited. They final tallies are also for an entire year. The big numbers we see are from analysis a year or so after, once all the medical data is in and they can run statistic models. They also tend to include fatalities that are "burdened" by seasonal flu even if not initially coded as such at death.

It's not remotely the same as a real time counter that is dealing with a novel virus in which we have limited time to prepare for, nonetheless test. A counter that is most certainly not capturing all of the data, including deaths.


----------



## backcountry

Paper released to the White House today recommends skepticism on assuming the virus will be lessened by temperature or humidity. They cite minor evidence from limited studies that it's possible but conflicting evidence from spread in countries currently still experiencing those types of climates. Time will tell.



> Some limited data support a potential waning of cases in warmer and more humid seasons, yet none are without major limitations. Given that countries currently in "summer" climates, such
> as Australia and Iran, are experiencing rapid virus spread, a decrease in cases with increases in humidity and temperature elsewhere should not be assumed. Given the lack of immunity to
> SARS-CoV-2 across the world, if there is an effect of temperature and humidity on transmission, it may not be as apparent as with other respiratory viruses for which there is at least some pre-
> existing partial immunity. It is useful to note that pandemic influenza strains have not exhibited the typical seasonal pattern of endemic/epidemic strains. There have been 10 influenza pandemics in the past 250-plus years - two started in the northern hemisphere winter, three in
> the spring, two in the summer and three in the fall. All had a peak second wave approximately six months after emergence of the virus in the human population, regardless of when the initial
> introduction occurred.


https://www.nap.edu/catalog/25771/r...nality-for-the-covid-19-pandemic-april-7-2020


----------



## Critter

Now drivers entering Utah need to complete a travel declaration when they enter the state.

https://www.abc4.com/news/drivers-e...line-travel-declaration-form-starting-friday/


----------



## weber river man

*local county fishing*

Regardless of what has been said by the Governor or some counties here is some of what I can tell you happened to me today.

Intended to go fish the Weber in Summit County. Called the Sheriff's Office with intent to get info on their policy. Was told that if I come from SLC and stop and get out and am caught, checked, or turned in by the locals I will be cited and fined with a CLASS "B" misdemeanor. They also told me that Wasatch County has the exact same policy. They don't want us there. Basically stay in your own cage.

I called Morgan County Sheriff's Office. They informed me that they would not do DWR work and issue any kind of such citation for fishing as long as it was not in a State Park.

I then called Utah County and explained my question and he stated "Why would we cite you or issue you a ticket. That is ridiculous and we would never do that. We don't do the DWR job. Just be careful that if you go too far up Provo Canyon and get into the other County there, you will have problems. But you are welcome here. He stated that DWR agents cited fishermen on the shoreline at Deer Creek this past week and are still active doing it. But he explained that they would not bother you in their county.

I then called Davis County and they were the same. You can come and fish here.

I am calling the northern counties tomorrow, but for now that is good information.

The only question I do have is what will the DWR do in each of these counties that said it was ok from a law enforcement stand point?

Go figure.

But the DWR is still selling licenses for hunting and fishing and combos as fast as they can.

Good luck out there. Be safe


----------



## Critter

It isn't the DWR that is putting the non county residents thing in place. It is the county government or health department. And it isn't a fishing/hunting restriction it is a county access regulation. 

It would be a dumb question to ask a county sheriff if you can fish there or not, like they said "they don't enforce fishing laws" unless possibly asked to but then I doubt that they would know the fishing regulations anyway to give you a ticket.


----------



## weber river man

Regardless of what has been said by the Governor or some counties here is some of what I can tell you happened to me today.

Intended to go fish the Weber in Summit County. Called the Sheriff's Office with intent to get info on their policy. Was told that if I come from SLC and stop and get out and am caught, checked, or turned in by the locals I will be cited and fined with a CLASS "B" misdemeanor. They also told me that Wasatch County has the exact same policy. They don't want us there. Basically stay in your own cage.

I called Morgan County Sheriff's Office. They informed me that they would not do DWR work and issue any kind of such citation for fishing as long as it was not in a State Park. 

I then called Utah County and explained my question and he stated "Why would we cite you or issue you a ticket. That is ridiculous and we would never do that. We don't do the DWR job. Just be careful that if you go too far up Provo Canyon and get into the other County there, you will have problems. But you are welcome here. He stated that DWR agents cited fishermen on the shoreline at Deer Creek this past week and are still active doing it. But he explained that they would not bother you in their county.

I then called Davis County and they were the same. You can come and fish here.

I am calling the northern counties tomorrow, but for now that is good information.

The only question I do have is what will the DWR do in each of these counties that said it was ok from a law enforcement stand point?

Go figure.

But the DWR is still selling licenses for hunting and fishing and combos as fast as they can.

Good luck out there. Be safe


----------



## weber river man

The point is not asking them if I could fish. The point of the matter is can we be in your county legally while we ae fishing or are we violating a county directive. The Sheriff office in each county knows and are the enforcement arms of the political puppets in place. If you don't check and are caught you could be cited !!!


----------



## Vanilla

You’re seeing the difference in counties that currently have formal restrictions vs those that do not. The reason Utah County sheriffs office won’t cite you is because as of today, Utah County hasn’t put a health order in place. That could change any day. 

I’m ready for the health order that nobody from another county can get out of a vehicle for ANY reason in Utah County unless they’re a county resident. I’m tired of these Wasatch County residents buying my flour, or my toilet paper in my county. You can have your turkey hunting and ice off at the Berry, we’ll keep our commodities and hospital. Pound sand, losers. I think it’s time we invade Wasatch County and absorb them into Utah County anyway. Let’s see them try and stop us. ¡Viva la revolución!


----------



## riptheirlips

I am a little low on food so I am headed out to get some essential food (fish) today. Guess if I get a ticket I will explain to the judge how essential it is to eat, and why I was getting food. I will be traveling through 3 counties


----------



## Lone_Hunter

I'm finding this whole thing confusing. So, my bottom line question is this.


If my wife and I live in Utah county. We have general season turkey tags in our pockets, If we decide to hunt in:

Anywhere in the Uinta National Forest ( or Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest )
Anywhere in the Manti La Sal National Forest
Anywhere in the Fishlake National Forest

Are we going to be left alone, or am I going to have some LEO looking to issue me a ticket?


----------



## Vanilla

Lone_Hunter said:


> I'm finding this whole thing confusing. So, my bottom line question is this.
> 
> If my wife and I live in Utah county. We have general season turkey tags in our pockets, If we decide to hunt in:
> 
> Anywhere in the Uinta National Forest
> Anywhere in the Manti La Sal National Forest
> Anywhere in the Fishlake National Forest
> 
> Are we going to be left alone, or am I going to have some LEO looking to issue me a ticket?


Depends on what county you are hunting. I'm not well versed enough on county borders vs the borders of said national forests. Hopefully the unreasonable portions of the county health orders are no longer in place come general turkey time.


----------



## Jedidiah

You'll get a ticket if you're doing it in any of the counties where they have a stay-out-of-my-swamp order, which includes Summit and Wasatch. It's probably only a few weeks, maybe they extend another month. Eventually the infection rate and percentage of infected people will even out even if there isn't any kind of vaccine or remedy and there won't be any reason to try to keep people out. They may try to keep non-residents out but once the numbers don't support it they will fail.

Just do like I do, don't spend money there any more. Strawberry's road was garbage for a couple years due to lack of maintenance, I don't buy anything at all at the marina. Mantua abuses non-residents, I'll literally never spend another dollar there ever again. Fish Lake is awesome, I make a point of spending money at the stores or lodge every time I go. Wasatch and Summit ruin my ice off and early spring river fishing, I won't spend money there for years.


----------



## RandomElk16

Jedidiah said:


> You'll get a ticket if you're doing it in any of the counties where they have a stay-out-of-my-swamp order, which includes Summit and Wasatch.


I'm curious, to someone's earlier point (goose?), but will it hold weight?

I don't know about being cited for being on federal land. Maybe you will get cited, but will it hold up?

I personally hope the county sheriffs are doing more than being deep in the woods where you are less of a risk, and less at risk, than arguably anywhere else.


----------



## RandomElk16

Make America Free Again.


----------



## Jedidiah

RandomElk16 said:


> I'm curious, to someone's earlier point (goose?), but will it hold weight?
> 
> I don't know about being cited for being on federal land. Maybe you will get cited, but will it hold up?
> 
> I personally hope the county sheriffs are doing more than being deep in the woods where you are less of a risk, and less at risk, than arguably anywhere else.


Hard to say, like folks were saying up above. But one thing I will tell you is that cops have to get paid somehow and with less crimes being committed as an incidental result of the stay-at-home order how are they going to generate tickets to pay paychecks? Yep, ticketing anyone who isn't a resident of the county sounds like a good way to do it.


----------



## Kwalk3

RandomElk16 said:


> I'm curious, to someone's earlier point (goose?), but will it hold weight?
> 
> I don't know about being cited for being on federal land. Maybe you will get cited, but will it hold up?
> 
> I personally hope the county sheriffs are doing more than being deep in the woods where you are less of a risk, and less at risk, than arguably anywhere else.


I would hope so too. From personal experience in the last two weeks, they have their hands full harassing a guy(Spoiler alert: it was me) sitting in a highly visible public parking lot with a window mounted spotting scope looking at elk and deer on the mountain and repeatedly accusing me of illegal drug use.

That kind of stuff keeps you too busy to be handing out citations or enforcing county health orders.

Sorry for the tangent. Still heated over the interaction.


----------



## Jedidiah

One reason police officers ask you about drugs, firearms or anything illegal in the car is to see if the reaction or answer gives them reasonable suspicion. It can be a valuable tool, but it can also be a reason for an unscrupulous cop to try to use force.


----------



## Vanilla

RandomElk16 said:


> I don't know about being cited for being on federal land. Maybe you will get cited, but will it hold up?


Local law enforcement have enforcement powers on federally owned lands. It's why DWR officers can cite and arrest for state wildlife violations even in the national forest. There is no issue there.


----------



## Vanilla

Jedidiah said:


> But one thing I will tell you is that cops have to get paid somehow and with less crimes being committed as an incidental result of the stay-at-home order how are they going to generate tickets to pay paychecks? Yep, ticketing anyone who isn't a resident of the county sounds like a good way to do it.


You should read in Utah code how revenue from tickets is allocated before making preposterous accusations like this one. It's all in state code, for anyone to read and understand...if they choose.


----------



## Vanilla

Also, I will mention this. 

I noticed a news story last night that the legislature is contemplating going into a special session to address many things that have to do with the pandemic, including inconsistent health department orders.

This morning I decided to contact my legislator and express my opinion of these orders and how they disparately impact out-of-county residents for lands and waters that are owned not by the county, but by the state of Utah. She was very open to my concerns, and will be forwarding them on to legislative leadership for consideration when they do the special session. 

I'd encourage anyone with similar concerns to reach out to their legislators and express their concerns. As always, doing it in a respectful, reasoned manner will go a lot further than ranting or using scare/hate/fear language.


----------



## backcountry

Kwalk3 said:


> RandomElk16 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious, to someone's earlier point (goose?), but will it hold weight?
> 
> I don't know about being cited for being on federal land. Maybe you will get cited, but will it hold up?
> 
> I personally hope the county sheriffs are doing more than being deep in the woods where you are less of a risk, and less at risk, than arguably anywhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> I would hope so too. From personal experience in the last two weeks, they have their hands full harassing a guy(Spoiler alert: it was me) sitting in a highly visible public parking lot with a window mounted spotting scope looking at elk and deer on the mountain and repeatedly accusing me of illegal drug use.
> 
> That kind of stuff keeps you too busy to be handing out citations or enforcing county health orders.
> 
> Sorry for the tangent. Still heated over the interaction.
Click to expand...

That sucks. Did they at least keep proper distance and wear PPE during the unnecessary encounter?

Sorry you had to deal with that during such a benign activity. I use to get profiled a ton on my 20s, especially around Salina driving W. on I-70. Its unpleasant to be following the law and have your privacy and space invaded.


----------



## Kwalk3

Jedidiah said:


> One reason police officers ask you about drugs, firearms or anything illegal in the car is to see if the reaction or answer gives them reasonable suspicion. It can be a valuable tool, but it can also be a reason for an unscrupulous cop to try to use force.


I get that. I also have a great amount of respect for LEO and the work that they do. I've never found myself on the wrong side of anything aside from a speeding ticket and try to be respectful in all interactions, including this one.

However there's a clear difference in asking someone about any illegal activity and repeatedly accusing you saying they witnessed you doing XYZ illegal activity even at the end of the conversation when there was nothing to substantiate that. My car had my hunting backpack, boots, and trekking poles, as well as binos and fly fishing gear. It should have been obvious that I wasn't just pretending to be enjoying some wildlife viewing as a cover for illicit behaviors.


----------



## Kwalk3

backcountry said:


> That sucks. Did they at least keep proper distance and wear PPE during the unnecessary encounter?
> 
> Sorry you had to deal with that during such a benign activity. I use to get profiled a ton on my 20s, especially around Salina driving W. on I-70. Its unpleasant to be following the law and have your privacy and space invaded.


No PPE, and he leaned in my passenger side window trying to smell or see something that could justify his treatment of the situation(He had called for back up and was trying to save face). In fact, I heard the other officer question him when they went to run my driver's license and he responded that he wasn't crazy or something. I never removed my spotting scope from the drivers side window, so he couldn't get too close. .

That part didn't bother me at the time, but it is now on the list of annoyances about the whole ordeal.


----------



## RandomElk16

Vanilla said:


> Local law enforcement have enforcement powers on federally owned lands. It's why DWR officers can cite and arrest for state wildlife violations even in the national forest.


But does the county law trump the federal law is my point. There is no closure of federal wildlife currently. Can a county close federal land, or in this case discriminate who can use it?

That was my point, not about the citation itself.


----------



## Lone_Hunter

Jedidiah said:


> You'll get a ticket if you're doing it in any of the counties where they have a stay-out-of-my-swamp order, which includes Summit and Wasatch. It's probably only a few weeks, maybe they extend another month. Eventually the infection rate and percentage of infected people will even out even if there isn't any kind of vaccine or remedy and there won't be any reason to try to keep people out. They may try to keep non-residents out but once the numbers don't support it they will fail.
> 
> Just do like I do, don't spend money there any more. Strawberry's road was garbage for a couple years due to lack of maintenance, I don't buy anything at all at the marina. Mantua abuses non-residents, I'll literally never spend another dollar there ever again. Fish Lake is awesome, I make a point of spending money at the stores or lodge every time I go. Wasatch and Summit ruin my ice off and early spring river fishing, I won't spend money there for years.


Joy. I see that grand county has shut its doors too. This seems to be a reoccuring trend.

I probably have a snowballs chance in hell of getting a refund on general season turkey tags. The local turkey Hunting around here sucks balls , espeically after the coal hallow fire. I knew some primo spots, and ALL of them are up in flames. Unless one wants to go down wanrroads canyon road. I know there's some up there, if you don't mind some persnickety private land owner deliberately taking pot shots in your general direction on public land to run you off. Been there, done that, ain't going back. That said, I know where to look, I'm just not excited about the areas.


----------



## Jedidiah

Vanilla said:


> You should read in Utah code how revenue from tickets is allocated before making preposterous accusations like this one. It's all in state code, for anyone to read and understand...if they choose.


Man I wish I lived in the world you do where what the law says is a reflection of reality 100% of the time. I guess that's a symptom of working in the business.


----------



## Vanilla

RandomElk16 said:


> But does the county law trump the federal law is my point. There is no closure of federal wildlife currently. Can a county close federal land, or in this case discriminate who can use it?
> 
> That was my point, not about the citation itself.


That is the million dollar question, and one we don't have a definitive answer to until or unless it is challenged in court. This pandemic will be long over before that's ever able to be answered. I still believe that it is a close call, and I see valid arguments on both sides. I could legitimately see the orders being upheld, and I could see them getting struck down. We just don't know at this point.

One point of clarification: It is not the counties that have made this a misdemeanor. It is not county code that criminalizes the prohibited behavior. It is Utah state code that does so. Here is the code: https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title26A/Chapter1/26A-1-S123.html?v=C26A-1-S123_1800010118000101

It is illegal under Utah state code to "violate, disobey, or disregard any notice or order issued by a local health department" and it is a class B misdemeanor for a first offense, and a class A misdemeanor for a subsequent offense. This is one of the reasons I said earlier to contact your legislator. The counties are only doing this because the state has given them the authority to do so. What is given, can be taken away.


----------



## Vanilla

Jedidiah said:


> Man I wish I lived in the world you do where what the law says is a reflection of reality 100% of the time. I guess that's a symptom of working in the business.


I assure you the distribution of ticket revenue happens exactly like it is in state code. Courts are audited every year to ensure this is the case.

You're accusations are not only false, they are ridiculous. With all due respect that you deserve, you have no clue what you're talking about here. Zero clue.


----------



## Critter

Lone_Hunter said:


> I probably have a snowballs chance in hell of getting a refund on general season turkey tags. The local turkey Hunting around here sucks balls , espeically after the coal hallow fire. I knew some primo spots, and ALL of them are up in flames. Unless one wants to go down wanrroads canyon road. I know there's some up there, if you don't mind some persnickety private land owner deliberately taking pot shots in your general direction on public land to run you off. Been there, done that, ain't going back. That said, I know where to look, I'm just not excited about the areas.


If you want a refund you need to get in touch with your local DOW office and request it.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/887-hunting-fishing-utah-covid-19.html


----------



## Jedidiah

Ok buttercup, I didn't mean to challenge your fragile reality. Don't get all mean on me now.


----------



## Vanilla

Reality can be tricky. There is how things really happen, and then there is how uneducated ignorant people claim they happen. 

Which one is "reality?" 

It's clearly more plausible that courts all across the state are ignoring state code, and fudging numbers to cover it up, and sending ticket revenue to police departments to pay their officers, and officers are ticketing people for violating corona protocol so they can get their pay check. Yep, that's reality. Well done, Jed. Well done.


----------



## BPturkeys

Vanilla said:


> Reality can be tricky. There is how things really happen, and then there is how uneducated ignorant people claim they happen.
> 
> Which one is "reality?"
> 
> It's clearly more plausible that courts all across the state are ignoring state code, and fudging numbers to cover it up, and sending ticket revenue to police departments to pay their officers, and officers are ticketing people for violating corona protocol so they can get their pay check. Yep, that's reality. Well done, Jed. Well done.


 What...are you saying we can't just pay the cop right then and there. It's a long trip back up to Heber just to see a judge that might double the normal fine when he discovers you don't go to his ward....gee.


----------



## Jedidiah

I do agree that I used a little bit of a logic leap there. Yes, surely tickets all go into the general fund and funds are then allocated through thoughtfully structured oversight. But I'm definitely not going to agree that the county wouldn't try to use creative methods to fill that general fund. It's how the town of Mantua stays afloat, and the cops are definitely rewarded for it. The reason they have so many cops on the payroll is to write all the tickets they write, tickets that are written for things they drum up to inflate their budget. 

You're stuck on the idea that I was saying the cop writes the ticket, the check for the ticket gets cashed and another check for the same amount is written for the cop. Obviously not, don't be obtuse. But the idea that the county and city will make rules in order to have them broken and get revenue? 100% yes, yep. That happens all the time, it's small town bread and butter. You're a fool if you think otherwise.


----------



## Critter

BPturkeys said:


> What...are you saying we can't just pay the cop right then and there. It's a long trip back up to Heber just to see a judge that might double the normal fine when he discovers you don't go to his ward....gee.


With most of these tickets I will wager that you can just write a check for the amount and send it to the court, no different than a traffic ticket.

That is unless you plan on contesting it.


----------



## wyoming2utah

Catherder said:


> If I know the folks in Piute County, (and I do know a couple actually) they are at least thinking about it.
> 
> Do you think they will at least let the DWR stocking trucks in to plant Otter Creek?


I keep thinking a couple things: 
1) If I had control over my county-Sevier-I'd be doing my damnedest to keep out of county residents out! As of right now, we have a grand total of ZERO confirmed Corona Virus cases. Hope it stays that way. And, I certainly understand why Kane and Garfield counties are pretty much restricting all recreation in their counties.
2) I jus got home from Piute Reservoir a couple of hours ago where I was looking at the big bows gillnetted this morning...I know that those DWR guys could get limited soon as to what they can and cannot do. I hope they don't, but these rural counties can be nutso for sure.
3) I was just reading about Ammon Bundy and what he's doing/saying in Idaho...if Piute or other Utah counties follow his line of thinking, the whole state will be opened up (and he might be dead). I'm definitely not n agreement there...
4) As cooped up as I feel, I'm excited for the turkey hunt coming up and just bought my new fishing license (I intend to head out tomorrow to fish in Wayne county... don't know but think I'll still be legal). I fully we tend to comply with any LEOs while out and hope they understand the confusion with any compliance with all this crap!


----------



## Vanilla

Jedidiah said:


> You're a fool if you think otherwise.


Yep, I'm the fool alright! Another astute observation on your part. You are full of them.


----------



## middlefork

Jed, Mantua and Willard both got their hands tied a couple of years ago. Not that you don't have to be careful going through both but it is a LOT better than it used to be.


----------



## Jedidiah

middlefork said:


> Jed, Mantua and Willard both got their hands tied a couple of years ago. Not that you don't have to be careful going through both but it is a LOT better than it used to be.


Right, but the state had to get involved after years of bad behavior. Vanilla, I think I've figured out your problem, you must be very young. It's got to be the explanation for your equivalent of "I know you are but what am I" and "I'm right and you're wrong and because is why". Don't take this the wrong way but I think you need to grow up a little.


----------



## High Desert Elk

Vanilla said:


> Local law enforcement have enforcement powers on federally owned lands. It's why DWR officers can cite and arrest for state wildlife violations even in the national forest. There is no issue there.


Not in San Juan County (Blanding). We had a 4 wheeler mishap in the forest one year elk hunting. Local law enforcement that we contacted in town said he couldn't come up to do anything because it was USFS, but he would meet us in town to fill out a report for insurance purposes.

Maybe he was just lazy, I dunno. A county sheriff doesn't have jurisdiction on reservation lands (also federally owned) but a state trooper does. A tribal cop cannot issue a citation on a state or federal hwy unless they are cross deputized. They can't haul you into tribal court either. Just some useless and worthless trivia...


----------



## High Desert Elk

backcountry said:


> There is evidence to the contrary. NY didn't shut down in time and it burned threw their cities fast.
> 
> It's hitting meat processing facilities now and several have been closed. All of those are cases of non-high risk individuals getting sick and impacting industry. Any industry with close contact would have likely sustained similar outcomes without measures beyond what you describe. Look at how it's spreading through Navy ships.
> 
> We have more than a little evidence of what happens when you just let it burn through communities without mitigation. And having high risk individuals stay home really only reduces pressure on ICU beds as American data shows 30-60 year olds are putting high demand on hospital beds as well, even with most of the country under government mandated social distancing.
> 
> This isn't just about high risk groups. Maybe we could have staggered responses differently but we never had the time to triage the situation that way because we wasted 6 weeks between the travel ban and actually preparing (PPE, context tracing, communication, etc).


Might want to check into this...

*NATF Conference Call - 375 utility member participants
April 7, 2020

Special Presentation & Talk About COVID-19 Virus
Dr. Pastides, Ph.D. M.P.H.
President of University of South Carolina - Arnold School of Public Health*

Also, the meat industry could be hurt because of a lack of CO2 used for cooling relative to USDA standards. Produce is next.

This is why I say things cannot continue on as they are. At some point, someone somewhere needs to make a decision and let the chips fall where they may. Otherwise it won't matter how many lives you save because there won't be anything left for it to matter, and then you have those complications and scenarios to deal with. We no longer live in a society that can still function shutting down entire towns.

And, a lot of the people that died in the 1918 pandemic were soldiers in the trenches and field hospitals.

Every pandemic takes a hit on medical services and facilities. Economically, it's difficult to plan for mass sickness that comes around about every 10 years or so (maybe). You cannot keep that many facilities ready to go "just in case".


----------



## backcountry

There wasn't a hyperlink and a quick search provided no results that matched the title.


----------



## goosefreak

RandomElk16 said:


> I'm curious, to someone's earlier point (goose?), but will it hold weight?
> 
> I don't know about being cited for being on federal land. Maybe you will get cited, but will it hold up?
> 
> I personally hope the county sheriffs are doing more than being deep in the woods where you are less of a risk, and less at risk, than arguably anywhere else.


I certainly dont mind being the test dummy. If i were to receive a citation for being on public land, that would be one ticket I would gladly go out of my way to fight. I absolutely think the possibility of it being thrown out is great.

HERE ME!! I respect honorable, respectful, loyal to their oath LEO
however, they dont all act in justice. Most people are afraid to challenge an officer on the spot. I am talking about if you truly feel honest in your doings.

I have done many times, sometimes a ticket was given and sometimes not.

Heres an example, because I dont really care BUT; 
I have decent "criminal" record. Almost all of them were Marijuana citations because before my Mighty change of Heart, I loved to smoke weed, and lots of it. That being said, when I was 18 years old I was driving through a neighborhood late an night with a buddy. All we were doing was smoking cigarettes, listening to music and wasting time. We pulled into a circle at the end of the road and was immediately approached very rapidly by a guy on a Harley motorcycle. He pulled right in front of us and we couldnt leave. He immediately started shouting at us and accusing us of breaking into his truck.

We told him that he was mistaking, it wasnt us, we were just space cruising listening to music. He told us it was bull$hit and to step out of the car so we could settle this. He was quite a bit bigger and older than us.
Since he had us blocked off so we couldnt leave, we both got out of the car armed ourselves with a mini baseball bat and brass knuckles thinking we were "bada$$es" our intentions were to scare him off so we could leave. Seeing that we looked like we meant business, his tune changes and he got out of our way.

We left the scene and both my buddy and I went home......... Well, that guy took down my buddies license plate and a few days later we were both visited by the police. 
We both received Aggravated Assault (3rd degree Felony) and Vehicular Burglary Citations.

WE DID NOT BREAK INTO ANY VEHICLE......EVER!!!
we Absolutely deserved the aggravated assault BUT NOT the vehicle burglary.
I was planning on fighting the whole thing since it was a he says she says situation BUT, when I showed up to court to fight it, the public defender said the witness was there with 3 other people who were ready to testify saying that they physically saw me break into the truck. BULL$HITT!

The public defender says I can take a plea deal and accept both charges and have the felony reduces to a Misdemeanor OR I can move forward and fight it but, if I lose then I would have a Felony on my record.

I was outnumbers 4-1 on a bogus accusation regarding the vehicle burglary.
I will own up to a crime I commit but, I will not own up to someone else's.

I didnt want the Felony so I bent over and took the plea.

It was an unfortunate event that a particular crime happened at the same time I was near it and we were the easy target for blame. That bit me in the A$$ when I enlisted into the Marines and I told my Recruiter about it but, he didnt file a waver for me so they kicked me out of their DE program. (then I internally severed all my toes in a freak ATV accident and that sealed my fate in that career but, thats another story)
I stand by Law Enforcement who serve their duties Righteously..

I married my wife of 7 years in the Temple of our church. Im a good boy now "mostly"

holy HeII are you still reading??

point is, every citation isnt always just and I understand that the circumstances were different but, it was that incident where I decided to stick up for myself to LEO if I feel like iv been wrongly done. 
Judges are the ones who enforce the law.... PERIOD. You have the option in every violation big or small to appear before a judge, (constitutional right)

the problem with the order of law that everybody keeps sighting over this very subject it that it is VERY vague. They cant make a law that takes away your right, especially the very first paragraph of it. They (county) cant just say when you can and cant have your rights given to you.

SURE, you might get written a citation for exercising your constitutional rights and most people will never go any further than just bending over and paying the fee. If you were to fight it in this case, I'm guessing it has a higher probability of being thrown out rather than being enforced by a judge but, you have to be willing to fight which most people are too scared to do

I could ask my dad's uncle for a better Idea... He's a Circuit Judge on the Supreme Court.

Bottom line is this; They are criminalizing you for disobeying a request that IMO they have no authority giving in the context given...... Fishing...On BLM land. " you are now deemed a criminal for casting a Rod 3/4 of a mile down the shoreline from an over privileged county resident on public land"

1st, 4th, and 14th amendment. Discrimination.

( to those offended, Insert your copied link of public health law and orders here )

P.S....... These "Stay Home" orders started as 2 weeks, then another 2 weeks, then April 13th now May 1st. On this trend its going to go into May 23rd then it will be July 4th etc.. Do people really think that the citizens of this nation are going to put up with that? there will be a tipping point.

But, If we would all just hand over our rights and stay home this would be over sooner right???!! Even shady Fouchi said once a virus finds a host it it imposable to keep it from spreading.
If we stay shut down until there are no new cases then we have been condemned. if you feel safer staying home then its your right to do so..


----------



## backcountry

I'm confused, what constititional right is being infringed when they temporarily close public lands to access?

I get the frustration. I think many of these orders could be challenged and might have legal weaknesses. But I'm not sure it's in the way you are arguing it.

These counties aren't making requests. They are making legally binding orders based upon powers given to them by the state. Vanilla has highlighted one way to potentially minimize or undo those powers (said from someone who isn't as certain they are inappropriate in their intent, though their execution do seem less than ideal).

PS...love the "shady Fauci" remark. That clarifies how seriously I should take your comments.


----------



## goosefreak

backcountry said:


> I'm confused, what constititional right is being infringed when they temporarily close public lands to access?
> 
> I get the frustration. I think many of these orders could be challenged and might have legal weaknesses. But I'm not sure it's in the way you are arguing it.
> 
> These counties aren't making requests. They are making legally binding orders based upon powers given to them by the state. Vanilla has highlighted one way to potentially minimize or undo those powers (said from someone who isn't as certain they are inappropriate in their intent, though their execution do seem less than ideal).
> 
> PS...love the "shady Fauci" remark. That clarifies how seriously I should take your comments.


Do you just read news headlines?? or do you search out facts for yourself?? when or if you do search out fact, use your brain to fully understand them..

I'v spent hours every single day since this started reading doctor reports, news articles and comparing data number. EVERY DAY for HOURS. Because I have 2 daughters who are more important to me then your health, and i want to know how worried i should be

your right, I am NO health expert but, my conclusions have found Covid-19 to be over HYPED! there, I said it.. I'm not going to argue data with you because you clearly havent looked and compared any of it nor used your brain to comprehend it..

You want to know what rights are being violated? crack open a book and read your rights.

OR, go back to playing your word game and troll people over mislead facts you clearly no nothing about.


----------



## backcountry

You can't even explain what constititional rights are being infringed in your own words. I mean seriously. It's a basic question and I'm pretty certain you lack the comprehension to explain it even if you randomly drop the fact that your third cousin's ex is a judge.

I'm trying to remember, aren't you easily triggered by the use of All Caps?


----------



## goosefreak

backcountry said:


> You can't even explain what constititional rights are being infringed in your own words. I mean seriously. It's a basic question and I'm pretty certain you lack the comprehension to explain it even if you randomly drop the fact that your third cousin's ex is a judge.


You truly are an idiot Backcountry....Truly.. You must have comprehension problems because in my previous post i mention the 1st, 4th and 14 Amendment.. Go read them for yourself because you dont care for what i have to say.

You dont have a leg to stand on.. Go back to your word puzzle.


----------



## backcountry

Citing Amendment numbers doesn't explain how Order X infringes on supposed right Y. You actually have to explain yourself if you are claiming some massive loss of rights.

I mean you have an actual lawyer explaining he's conflicted on how this could be interpreted legally. You aren't a lawyer nor are you actually presenting a legally defensible position. You are just vomiting ideology across the internet.

So again... how are your supposed rights being infringed? It should be pretty simple to explain to an idiot.


----------



## goosefreak

explain myself??? HeII, it would be many pages long, nobody wants to read pages of that, therefore you can read for yourself. You cant even crack open a book, you should be good at that. HeII, you play flippin word games.. Your argument is 100% based off of ignorance. If your not willing to find out but, you would rather simply do nothing and have someone "change your mind" whats the point

you are a no nothing do nothing kind of guy 

You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear. Ignorance is bliss right??

totally your choice to live your life in fear. You would much rather someone tell you how to live rather than deciding for yourself.. You are LAZY!


----------



## backcountry

No, I just expect people who have such a firm claim to having their rights infringed to have the basic ability to defend that stance. It's actually the basic expectation of rational and logical dialogue and argumentation.

What you are doing is the equivalent of a lawyer going into court and saying "he's guilty, I rest my case and if you don't understand that jury and judge you are idiots". 

It's not my job to research your supposed issue. It's your job to defend your ideas. And currently you have failed at that ridiculously simple expectation. I mean you randomly vented about your weed smoking years but you can't actually explain how health department orders rooted in state appointed powers supposedly infringe on your opinion that you have the "right" to recreate when and where you want?


----------



## goosefreak

backcountry said:


> No, I just expect people who have such a firm claim to having their rights infringed to have the basic ability to defend that stance. It's actually the basic expectation of rational and logical dialogue and argumentation.
> 
> What you are doing is the equivalent of a lawyer going into court and saying "he's guilty, I rest my case and if you don't understand that jury and judge you are idiots".
> 
> It's not my job to research your supposed issue. It's your job to defend your ideas. And currently you have failed at that ridiculously simple expectation. I mean you randomly vented about your weed smoking years but you can't actually explain how health department orders rooted in state appointed powers supposedly infringe on your opinion that you have the "right" to recreate when and where you want?


Oh, my heII. Its not my job to educate you on your rights... I gave you the opportunity. You turned it down. You are incapable... like I said. You are LAZY...

it must suck being you...


----------



## goosefreak

P.S. 

I read the order given by the counties AND the Governor and I Re-read the Amendments to make sure I truly felt like i wasnt preaching false doctrine. I'v been doing that all week.

Man, I'd hate to walk a step in your shoes. That would suck

Are you just mad that Bernie dropped out? is that what this about??


----------



## backcountry

Good to know you aren't able to defend your position Goosefreak. Makes my life easier. 

Wish I had a third cousin with an ex-lover who once clerked for a highschool mock trial supreme court to make me so clearly erudite as you. 

And yes my life and shoes suck. Haven't been able to afford a new pair for a while given my mental poverty. I feel seen by you, while in my hideous shoes.


----------



## goosefreak

backcountry said:


> Good to know you aren't able to defend your position Goosefreak. Makes my life easier.
> 
> Wish I had a third cousin with an ex-lover who once clerked for a highschool mock trial supreme court to make me so clearly erudite as you.
> 
> And yes my life and shoes suck. Haven't been able to afford a new pair for a while given my mental poverty. I feel seen by you.


your a looser. plain and simple...

I am capable of defending myself, you have yet to retaliate with a credible argument.

like this, if you had a rattlesnake latched onto your arm and I told you to pull if off, you'd reply back by saying... "explain yourself, otherwise I'm not doing so"

you are a loon!!

Dont know why your so butt hurt over my dads uncle sitting on the supreme court but.... okay.. just saying IF i need a reference, I'v got a better one than yours..


----------



## goosefreak

your nothing but, a Hiding in your house.


----------



## goosefreak

Well Backdoorcountry you ol puss, I’m turning in for the night. Your too slow to reply. It was fun talking $hit to you as always 

Unfortunately for you, iv made prior commitment to disengage with technology for 1 day starting tomorrow. 

By then I’ll probably loose interest in your liberal nonsense but, if not then let’s meet back up on Saturday..

Just giving your a warning, I’m not throwing in the towel I’m just gonna be away for a bit. I don’t want you getting the idea that I’m a coward like you and have ran off to hide under my bed sheets. 

Here’s one, I got more when I have time . This explains it all. Regarding the 14th

Remember, keep those hands washed!!

*** edit ***
I don’t know why but, it’s only showing half of it...

** edit 2 ** Okay, fixed. I just copied and pasted..


Constitution of United States of America 1789 (rev. 1992)

Section 1
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws


----------



## goosefreak

I’ll just give it to you now because I’ll be gone tomorrow.

I’m paraphrasing because I’m operating on borrowed time but, 
The 14th Amendment protects my rights to fish at Strawberry reservoir on public land by saying that a state shall make or enforce no law that abridge the privileges of citizens and shall not deprive anyone of life, liberty and property. Yadda yadda.
(Paraphrasing for lack of time)

Next...
4th Amendment.

Constitution of United States of America 1789 (rev. 1992)

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized“

This protects me from LEO harassing me about casting a rod into public water on public land or harassing me about my county citizenship Without probable cause. Simply fishing on public land is not probable cause for search and seizure.
Yadda yadda 
(Paraphrasing for lack of time)

Next....
1st Amendment.

Constitution of United States of America 1789 (rev. 1992)

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”

This protects my right to Assemble. Strawberry is public land, I pay state and federal taxes, I am a law abiding citizen and if I want to assemble at Strawberry reservoir then that’s my right to do so.

I could also argue freedom of religion. One way is that I am spiritually and religiously connected to eating fresh organic food sources such as fish. Collecting food for my family..

Again, I’m paraphrasing my thoughts but, what Wasatch county is saying clearly violates these constitutional rights in a very direct way.

Those are just the very first paragraphs of those amendments.

Okay, now start your butchering. I’ll reply on Saturday...


----------



## Dunkem

been a tad bit of editing done here, guys keep it very civil or take it to the p. m.s-O,-


----------



## taxidermist

Dunkem said:


> been a tad bit of editing done here, guys keep it very civil or take it to the p. m.s-O,-


+1 Yup!!


----------



## Lone_Hunter

You know, it just occured to me, and I don't know if anyone else has said it quite this way, however....


Bottom line, what we have here, is the most arbitrary public land grab, ever. By issuing orders and citations, denying residents of other counties while permitting their own, is far all intents and purposes a land grab. They are claiming ownership.


----------



## Critter




----------



## Lone_Hunter

I don't think it matters if it's intentional or not. The end result is the same.


----------



## Packout

What the counties have done is ridiculous, mostly because it doesn't accomplish their goal of excluding non-county-residents. People still drive thru. They still stop for gas. They still can swing into the grocery store. And Country Residents can leave the county and come back- such as trips to Costco, Trader Joes and fishing an open lake. 

But government has always limited access to public lands for certain reasons. If there is a fire in the area then the public is not allowed to enter. Certain government lands have had closures for wintering animals, elk calving, avalanche control, flood issues, military exercises, construction, etc..... So there may be a constitutional issue with the current closure and there might not. To say the government has no right to do so probably takes the argument too far. 

I personally think the counties are wrong because they keep all public lands open for themselves while excluding others who should have those same rights of use. If they close public lands to all then it would still suck, just less.


----------



## backcountry

Lone_Hunter said:


> You know, it just occured to me, and I don't know if anyone else has said it quite this way, however....
> 
> Bottom line, what we have here, is the most arbitrary public land grab, ever. By issuing orders and citations, denying residents of other counties while permitting their own, is far all intents and purposes a land grab. They are claiming ownership.


The phrase "public land grab" has officially jumped the shark. Nothing in their orders is "claiming ownership".


----------



## Lone_Hunter

backcountry said:


> The phrase "public land grab" has officially jumped the shark. Nothing in their orders is "claiming ownership".


The issue I have, is ACTIONS speak louder then words.

By denying access to everyone but their residents, they are, in their actions, saying, "only for me, not for thee". That in my opinion, by virtue of their actions, is claiming ownership.

Now if they said, "everyone stay home", regardless of where you live, then that is another story.


----------



## backcountry

Goosefreak,

I think you need to read a little more than the Constitution to understand the context/meaning of some of those ideas. 

But I did get a good laugh at the religious argument. I've got a lot of granola friends but none of them take it that far.

And I would pay good money to watch a case in which Goosefreak argues "casting a rod" is an issue pertaining to "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances".


----------



## backcountry

Lone_Hunter said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> The phrase "public land grab" has officially jumped the shark. Nothing in their orders is "claiming ownership".
> 
> 
> 
> The issue I have, is ACTIONS speak louder then words.
> 
> By denying access to everyone but their residents, they are, in their actions, saying, "only for me, not for thee". That in my opinion, by virtue of their actions, is claiming ownership.
> 
> Now if they said, "everyone stay home", regardless of where you live, then that is another story.
Click to expand...

I've agreed that I think a potential legal weakness is only denying access to non-residents of the county. I think that was a mistake even if it makes sense in relation to the disease.

But calling it a "public lands grab", that's not remotely true. It's not even good rhetoric.


----------



## middlefork

Maybe we should all get together on the capitol steps when they have the session!

Take that you city,county and state officials! 8)


----------



## Vanilla

backcountry said:


> But calling it a "public lands grab", that's not remotely true. It's not even good rhetoric.


You're reading it way too literally. He's explained the context of what it means, and at least temporarily, I think he's right. Of course they have not seized it and claimed title, and he didn't allege that, so you shouldn't either.

The actions of counties on this one is wrong, plain and simple. Even if they have the authority to do it, it's still wrong, in my opinion. I'm working to do what I can to fix that in my very limited scope of influence.


----------



## backcountry

Vanilla said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> But calling it a "public lands grab", that's not remotely true. It's not even good rhetoric.
> 
> 
> 
> You're reading it way too literally. He's explained the context of what it means, and at least temporarily, I think he's right. Of course they have not seized it and claimed title, and he didn't allege that, so you shouldn't either.
> 
> The actions of counties on this one is wrong, plain and simple. Even if they have the authority to do it, it's still wrong, in my opinion. I'm working to do what I can to fix that in my very limited scope of influence.
Click to expand...

Sorry but he's coopting a phrase that has explicit context for an issue that doesn't match. Denying access? Clearly. Public Lands Grab? In no fashion.

I've used his exact words for a reason and it's BS rhetoric. He's jumping the shark.

I support individuals expressing their preferences to their representatives. Best of luck on that journey.


----------



## 2full

Here in Southern Utah, the California and Vegas people are coming up here to their cabins on Cedar Mountain and Duck Creek, etc. to get away from their area.
All they are doing is bringing it with them. 
I see travel trailers and SUV's with California and Nevada plates going by my store as they come into town all day long.


And some of you wonder why the rural areas want to shut things down.


----------



## backcountry

The situation in Cedar is definitely nerve racking. The first wave hit about three weeks ago at Duck Creek. Even then we saw RVs crammed into every little piece of potential camping on the side of the road. I can't imagine what it's like now that it's actually warming up. 

I wish more people paid attention to the Stay Home component. Even Herbert clarified last week that it wasn't in the spirit of the directive to travel so far. He literally asked people to turn around if they were on I-15 already. This is not the time to go to second homes or camping.

Models give the state another 15-16 days before peak fatalities and resource use. And that's the state. Counties like ours could be a week or more behind that. The more people consider us a vacation and travel destination during the pandemic the longer it will be for our area to get back to whatever new normal we find in the next stage.


----------



## Vanilla

backcountry said:


> Sorry but he's coopting a phrase that has explicit context for an issue that doesn't match. Denying access? Clearly. Public Lands Grab? In no fashion.
> 
> I've used his exact words for a reason and it's BS rhetoric. He's jumping the shark.
> 
> I support individuals expressing their preferences to their representatives. Best of luck on that journey.


I disagree. And I think objectively you're wrong. The entire context of the "land grab" before was the state of Utah obtaining title to federal lands. That would still be public land. But to maintain it they would have to lease, shut it down, or maybe sell it. The context of that was fine for "land grab" because we would be shut out but in this case being shut out it fails?

Wrong.

Was it hyperbole? Yes. But very appropriate to describe what is going on, temporarily, compared to other contexts of what has been a passionate topic in the past. The context fits very well, actually. Whether you WANT it to fit or not is meaningless. If I can't use public lands, regardless of the reason, what is the difference? You never complained about the context when it was simply becoming state land. Just so we're clear.


----------



## backcountry

Vanilla said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but he's coopting a phrase that has explicit context for an issue that doesn't match. Denying access? Clearly. Public Lands Grab? In no fashion.
> 
> I've used his exact words for a reason and it's BS rhetoric. He's jumping the shark.
> 
> I support individuals expressing their preferences to their representatives. Best of luck on that journey.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. And I think objectively you're wrong. The entire context of the "land grab" before was the state of Utah obtaining title to federal lands. That would still be public land. But to maintain it they would have to lease, shut it down, or maybe sell it. The context of that was fine for "land grab" because we would be shut out but in this case being shut out it fails?
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Was it hyperbole? Yes. But very appropriate to describe what is going on, temporarily, compared to other contexts of what has been a passionate topic in the past. The context fits very well, actually. Whether you WANT it to fit or not is meaningless. If I can't use public lands, regardless of the reason, what is the difference? You never complained about the context when it was simply becoming state land. Just so we're clear.
Click to expand...

One is temporary inconvenience while one is a permanent transfer of lands with potential for permanently being locked out. It's a difference with a huge distinction.

It's hard to defend his comment as both hyperbolic and objectively correct when one of those words literally means "regarded or represented as larger, better, or worse than in reality".

I did complain when Patagonia used such language inappropriately in their ads about the monuments. Neither Lone's usage or their's is accurate by any means.

PS...the phrase land grab has a historic meaning well beyond Utah's contentious plans. But it has literally involved the acquisition of land in it's usage which is why its relevant to Utah's recent attempts. You know that's not remotely what these orders are doing and if counties we actually trying to seize land like that I'd be taking a different stance.


----------



## middlefork

2full, I get your angst. But for county residents to complain about non resident land owners utilizing their property irks me.

Non resident land owners are paying 100% valuation in property taxes while getting very little service.

As for those pesky people just camping feel free to do what you want with them.

Ya gotta love NIMBY.


----------



## backcountry

This has nothing to do with NIMBY as it's normally used and everything to do with the simple fact that it takes humans to move the virus. The goal, not subtle at all, is to stop the virus from spreading any further than it already has. 

Traveling to second homes and camping locations is not in the spirit of the state directives or the few techniques citizens have at their disposal.

Old arguments do not fit this unique situation.

And it's disheartening to watch how many families are packing up and driving through town today. Some are local, which I also think is unfortunate, but the # of California and Nevada tags isn't minor at all.


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## 2full

I am not talking about people using their property. I should have been more clear. 

Travel should be restricted for ALL people. 
The only way this is going to be contained is if people quit moving around......period. 
If I have a place in California, then I should not go there. ......period. 
I'm personally NOT going to go to anywhere I don't have to. 
Why risk spreading it around ??
That is just plain selfish and stupid.


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## Jedidiah

What incredibly stupid arguments, both the original declaration from the county and what you guys are working through. If these counties want to keep us out of town and restrict our travel in town, fine. But sending cops out to ticket you when you're fishing the top of the Lower Provo? That's ridiculous and perfectly inline in with my previous statements.

Vanilla and backcountry, I think you're both just a couple of large kids with some college education. The way you come out acting rudely with your first post being an insult to everyone's intelligence, denying any assertions while making none of your own and having no proof of the crap you're currently saying, it all reminds me of a college freshmen who thinks he's the smartest dude who walks the planet.


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## backcountry

Jedidiah said:


> Ok buttercup, I didn't mean to challenge your fragile reality. Don't get all mean on me now.





Jedidiah said:


> You're a fool if you think otherwise.





Jedidiah said:


> Don't take this the wrong way but I think you need to grow up a little.


Just a reminder of your mature, well-reasoned, clearly substantiated posts, Jedidiah.


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## Vanilla

Jed, you have no clue what you’re talking about. Go away and let the adults have a conversation.

I’m not insulting everyone’s intelligence. Just yours. The lack thereof has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt many times on many topics.


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## Jedidiah

Hah, the both of you are such incredibly objectionable human beings. I'm not going anywhere and I'll be calling you on your crap from now on. Keep going. I laughed a little when I read "I'm working on it in my own limited way" up there, by the way.


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## Vanilla

Jedidiah said:


> Hah, the both of you are such incredibly objectionable human beings. I'm not going anywhere and I'll be calling you on your crap from now on.


Your crush has switched from Shaun to us now? I'm flattered. I'm sure that will be stimulating content for everyone to read and you'll show everyone how mature you are while waiting for me to "grow up." You'll show me, Jed! You'll show me.

Or you could just try, for once, to contribute to a conversation. I know that is asking a lot, but just once?


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## Jedidiah

Not to pat myself on the back, but when this thread started I did let everyone know of the declarations that have been posted on the county web sites and that the specific sections of the Summit and Wasatch County that apply. You just saying that I don't contribute doesn't make it true. Kind of sounds like normal lawyer speak though.


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## Jedidiah

Vanilla said:


> Your crush has switched from Shaun to us now


That's an interesting comparison, now that you have me thinking about it I can definitely say that you in particular but maybe not so much backcountry definitely act just like Shaun but with better grammar. The way you deliver your snide little insults to people may look more intelligent but it's much the same behavior. I think you might need to find a little more healthy outlet for your frustrations than insulting strangers on a forum on the internet, but whatever you choose to do is fine by me.


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## Vanilla

Jedidiah said:


> The way you deliver your snide little insults to people may look more intelligent but it's much the same behavior. I think you might need to find a little more healthy outlet for your frustrations than insulting strangers on a forum on the internet, but whatever you choose to do is fine by me.


Hey pot, this is kettle...

I know I have insulted you. They have not really been little either. If so, I apologize. I'll make it very clear. You have zero clue what you're talking about! You come on and pick lame fights and act like a UWN hero. It's been going on from the time you joined. I can't believe you've been allowed to do it, but oh well. You can make me your love fest target and "call me out" every time you want. Nobody will be surprised that you offered nothing to contribute to the forum.

Is that a clear enough insult? I don't want there to be anything "little" about it.

Top of the page, Jed! Top of the page.


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## middlefork

Looks like there is a get together in Idaho Sunday. Anybody car pooling?

Ammon Bundy vows to create 'den of rattlesnakes'

Published: Friday, April 10, 2020

Anti-government activists upset over government efforts to contain the coronavirus pandemic announced a new ad campaign targeting Idaho Gov. Brad Little (R).

Idaho resident Ammon Bundy and marketing consultant Diego Rodriguez are coordinating the effort, which includes radio ads, billboards, a website and a planned book.

Bundy, who came to national attention for his leadership roles in two armed standoffs challenging federal land management, said last night that he has now assembled at least 300 individuals in opposition to business closures and stay-at-home orders aimed at curbing the spread of COVID-19.

"We are going to be like a den of rattlesnakes," Bundy said last night in Emmet, Idaho, where he led a third meeting in as many weeks accusing state officials of violating the Constitution's Bill of Rights. The meeting was broadcast via Facebook. "Because we will be so venomous if our rights are even threatened one bit ... people that would normally trample on rights will simply walk around us"

The ad campaign centers on a website, BradLittleisaDisgrace.com, and encourages visitors to share their stories about how the state's stay-at-home order has affected their families or businesses.

Rodriguez, a onetime political candidate who failed to win the GOP nomination for a state Senate seat in 2014, characterized Little as a "criminal of the highest order" over a state order requiring residents to isolate until April 15. Little is weighing whether to extend the order.

"You are committing a crime right now," Rodriguez told the crowd of several dozen attendees last night, prompting raucous applause. "Doesn't it feel good?"

Under Little's executive order, state residents are required to "limit all non-essential gatherings of any number of individuals" outside their own households.

Rodriguez also repeatedly mocked the seriousness of the novel coronavirus, telling the crowd he had suffered from the virus in January before proceeding to breathe in an exaggerated, open-mouthed manner.

"This is a very mild virus," he said, and later added: "If you're a pansy and you're afraid of getting a cough, you stay home. I'm going to work."

Rodriguez said the campaign targeting Little would continue until the governor rescinds the stay-at-home order and also makes a "public apology" to all Idaho residents.

Bundy also said he is looking into a class-action lawsuit targeting Idaho's state government: "There is a real need to save our businesses in this state."

Bundy, who owns the building where meetings have been held, is also set to host an Easter Sunday religious service followed by a potluck meal.

Despite his dismissive remarks about the seriousness of the novel coronavirus, Rodriguez warned attendees not to attend the Sunday event should they have "symptoms of the flu or a cold."

"I'm not afraid of the coronavirus; you shouldn't be either," Rodriguez said, asserting that the group would be mocked in the media should any of its members become ill. "The last thing we need is someone coming to these meetings and someone gets coronavirus."

Jennifer Yachnin, E&E News reporter


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## Jedidiah

Yeah, I was reading about the Bundy's yesterday. Not a big surprise they're in the media over it, but the subject of this particular thread is more about being denied the ability to enjoy the outdoors with zero contact with other people. I would also say it's about forcing people to recreate in a smaller area, which seems to be even more dangerous to everyone.


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## RandomElk16

Watch - after the Bundy event a bunch will test positive, and a few will die. I don't wish either of those things, but since the universe always has a punchline I think that will happen.


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## Catherder

I'm just glad they aren't holding an event in Piute or Garfield county.


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## Jedidiah

Vanilla said:


> You have zero clue what you're talking about!


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## taxidermist

Holy Cow Batman. After skimming through some of the post on the thread, I sure hope we (the public) can venture out pretty soon. Some folks NEED to get out. Some posts to me sound like a bunch of teenage kids squabbling over something they have ZERO control over. 


I've made a personal attack at a member on the site in the past. Not only was it wrong IMO, but I felt like shi!! afterword's. I made it my goal to not "attack" any member any longer, no matter what they post. I'm not a Saint by any means, I just try to be honest and kind to others.


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## goosefreak

Wow, Lots of post have been made since my day of fasting from technology yesterday!

None of this back and forth means squat to anyone of us.
I think we have all made our point on where we stand and nobody is going to change any minds here

I dont believe in the Covid-19 hype, at least on the scale that so many others do.
The data has yet to become alarming when comparing to other non pandemic or annual death rates from various other diseases or viruses.
So much misinformation in the world and articles contradiction articles and doctors contradiction doctors.

why should I believe otherwise, because bureaucrats told me so?

I will engage in any and everything that I feel is within my Constitutional rights and I know y'all will do the same.
No body needs to worry because I am plenty capable of dealing with the repercussions that may or may not come from that.

I would much rather propel my experience from yesterday than wast my time in a back and forth battle that is doing nothing more than distracting me and possibly the rest of you from engaging in more valuable things.
so I'm moving on...

Backcountry. I do not like you but, who am I for saying that because I dont even know you. My only regret would be calling you a p u ssy. Thats not me and It bugged me more than any of your comments towards me could ever. 

Iv been mentally and emotionally abused most of my life prior to a mighty change of heart and when I engage in such action and talk, I am no better that the perpetrators who done me wrong. I made a commitment years ago to be a better man than that.

(note, there is difference between rubbing shoulders and verbal abuse) 

Taxidermy speaks words of wisdom.. 

Im out of this thread and I wish everybody the best!!


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## backcountry

Pretty dishearteningng to me that 800 people dying a day in one state from one emerging disease isn't considered "alarming". 

I get personal liberty. But our actions here impact others with a disease in profound, not easily controlled, ways beyond curbing our movement. 

My current guess is Utah will likely see a bimodal distribution of peaks. We are seeing the initial one statewide, if the trend keeps up. The next will hit because of travel from holiday weekends like this when people ignore the basic tenets of the state directive or because of the people highlighted in the video I linked in the other thread who never really reduced their contact to begin with. That possiblity is already being discussed nationwide with talk of lifting restrictions soon-ish.

I could be wrong. But I'd rather be wrong in doing behavior that could save lives than acting as if somehow I am uniquely qualified to ignore the basic requests to stay home and ultimately spread the disease more. 

Only time will tell.


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## backcountry

Yep, nothing alarming. Just another influenza season scene at a New York hospital. Everytime I've been to the ER they were wearing ad hoc PPE like snow goggles and almost every walkable area was filled with gurneys. Nothing new here.

The only footage I've seen of actual emergency care in NY right now:

https://nyti.ms/2JW7PnZ


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## 2full

Rob and I practiced total social distancing today. Loaded up the snow machines and went up to my cabin for the day. 
Was a beautiful day. Was 72 degrees on the deck. Couldn't get stuck with the snow so well packed. 
Got good exercise and clean fresh air. 
And stayed in our own county. 
Last snowmobile trip of the year.


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## DallanC

Goin' old school on the PhaserII, love it! I've owned 6 over the years.  Looks like a great day to be out.



-DallanC


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## RandomElk16

backcountry said:


> Yep, nothing alarming. Just another influenza season scene at a New York hospital. Everytime I've been to the ER they were wearing ad hoc PPE like snow goggles and almost every walkable area was filled with gurneys. Nothing new here.
> 
> The only footage I've seen of actual emergency care in NY right now:
> 
> https://nyti.ms/2JW7PnZ


But it was smart to allow a non-essential journalist in there...


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## backcountry

RandomElk16 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, nothing alarming. Just another influenza season scene at a New York hospital. Everytime I've been to the ER they were wearing ad hoc PPE like snow goggles and almost every walkable area was filled with gurneys. Nothing new here.
> 
> The only footage I've seen of actual emergency care in NY right now:
> 
> https://nyti.ms/2JW7PnZ
> 
> 
> 
> But it was smart to allow a non-essential journalist in there...
Click to expand...

Journalist are considered "essential" under most state orders. It's kind of an American tradition, similar to having journalist embedded with troops. I think I has something to do with democracies needing quality information and educated citizens.

That was a weird retort in your part.


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## RandomElk16

backcountry said:


> Journalist are considered "essential" under most state orders. It's kind of an American tradition, similar to having journalist embedded with troops. I think I has something to do with democracies needing quality information and educated citizens.
> 
> That was a weird retort in your part.


Allowing a journalist to come into contact with positive testing patients of our worst pandemic, the most severe cases including the ones on ventilators, is past essential. Closer than 6 feet to incredibly sick people is the opposite of what we are telling people to do.

No one said to shut down journalism. Think critically about what I said. He could have presented all the same information without going into the sickest place in the US right now.

That was a weird understanding of something incredibly simple on your part.


----------



## backcountry

RandomElk16 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> Journalist are considered "essential" under most state orders. It's kind of an American tradition, similar to having journalist embedded with troops. I think I has something to do with democracies needing quality information and educated citizens.
> 
> That was a weird retort in your part.
> 
> 
> 
> Allowing a journalist to come into contact with positive testing patients of our worst pandemic, the most severe cases including the ones on ventilators, is past essential.
> 
> No one said to shut down journalism. Think critically about what I said. He could have presented all the same information without going into the sickest place in the US right now.
> 
> That was a weird understanding of something incredibly simple on your part.
Click to expand...

No, you used the language of shelter in place orders and I corrected it properly. It's no different than being embedded with soldiers. You do your best to mitigate the risk and film the experience for Americans. He had PPE and followed protocol just like the healthcare workers. Welcome to what journalist have been doing for ages.

And no, the information wouldn't have been the same without him there to film it. On site filming is critical during times like this as it clearly provides unique perspective for us and posterity.

It was a ridiculous, desperate attempt to deflect from the point of my original post. And it failed, miserably.

PS... never said shutdown journalism as a retort. Not exactly a critical analysis of my post on your part; pretty ironic.


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## Jedidiah

A good deal more people need to be watching videos of what's going on in New York hospitals. The reporter is just one guy anyway, all those healthcare workers also have to go home and interact with people in their daily lives too.

"ridiculous, desparate" seems like a pretty over the top description.


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## RandomElk16

backcountry said:


> No, you used the language of shelter in place orders and I corrected it properly. It's no different than being embedded with soldiers. You do your best to mitigate the risk and film the experience for Americans. He had PPE and followed protocol just like the healthcare workers. Welcome to what journalist have been doing for ages.
> 
> And no, the information wouldn't have been the same without him there to film it. On site filming is critical during times like this as it clearly provides unique perspective for us and posterity.
> 
> It was a ridiculous, desperate attempt to deflect from the point of my original post. And it failed, miserably.
> 
> PS... never said shutdown journalism as a retort. Not exactly a critical analysis of my post on your part; pretty ironic.


You constantly resort to belittling and name calling lately whenever someone disagrees with you. Frankly, it's pathetic.

The filming could be done by healthcare workers - like the bodies being loaded into trucks. In war, the journalist puts themselves at risk. In a pandemic, them and the film crew can put others at risk since they can become carries. Going into an infected area was wreckless, and that is why there are very few clips per your own admission. It was stupid.

I took the "shutdown journalism" approach because your "lesson" to educate on journalism made me feel you took my statement wrong. Journalism is essential for a democracy, but there can still be a line during a pandemic.

I didn't take away from your point that 800 died in a day, and that this isn't normal. Your entire line about it being desperate and failing says a lot more about you and your intellect, than it does about me.

Keep being an ornery *** backcountry. Then jump on some threads and act kumbaya. You have had some of the most negative posts towards others during this pandemic, and make disagreements personal. It's telling.


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## backcountry

RandomElk16 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you used the language of shelter in place orders and I corrected it properly. It's no different than being embedded with soldiers. You do your best to mitigate the risk and film the experience for Americans. He had PPE and followed protocol just like the healthcare workers. Welcome to what journalist have been doing for ages.
> 
> And no, the information wouldn't have been the same without him there to film it. On site filming is critical during times like this as it clearly provides unique perspective for us and posterity.
> 
> It was a ridiculous, desperate attempt to deflect from the point of my original post. And it failed, miserably.
> 
> PS... never said shutdown journalism as a retort. Not exactly a critical analysis of my post on your part; pretty ironic.
> 
> 
> 
> You constantly resort to belittling and name calling lately whenever someone disagrees with you. Frankly, it's pathetic.
> 
> The filming could be done by healthcare workers - like the bodies being loaded into trucks. In war, the journalist puts themselves at risk. In a pandemic, them and the film crew can put others at risk since they can become carries. Going into an infected area was wreckless, and that is why there are very few clips per your own admission. It was stupid.
> 
> I took the "shutdown journalism" approach because your "lesson" to educate on journalism made me feel you took my statement wrong. Journalism is essential for a democracy, but there can still be a line during a pandemic.
> 
> I didn't take away from your point that 800 died in a day, and that this isn't normal. Your entire line about it being desperate and failing says a lot more about you and your intellect, than it does about me.
> 
> Keep being an ornery *** backcountry. Then jump on some threads and act kumbaya. You have had some of the most negative posts towards others during this pandemic, and make disagreements personal. It's telling.
Click to expand...

Ugh, I've called your line of reasoning desperate, etc. The only one being personal is the one actually calling someone an "ornery ****". That is telling.

I'm not kumbaya at all nor do I remotely act it. I've owned my combative stance to multiple people's posts on this issue, including yours. I've never had a problem confronting BS head on, including yours. Remember when you claimed parts of the US were under "martial law" and then balked at criticism because no one cared about the "textbook definition"? Yeah, that type of BS.

Only name I've called in this event was Goosefreak and it was wordplay on his name and his ridiculous, yes ridiculous, claim to be uniquely affected by a global pandemic because he couldn't go camping. That's the only "name" I've called anyone. I can and do heavily criticize and label ideas but that is a night and day difference between actually making it personal and attacking the person....like you did above with zero irony.

Critical thinking involves understanding the difference between attacking ideas and people. When you go on the internet and post stupid crap, like you did with random criticism of mini-doc above, it's free to be ridiculed. But that doesn't mean I know Jack about you or your person. And I've been pretty consistent with that line the last month despite individuals name calling me all the time (say, our favorite Holocaust meme dropping duo) or you now. And that criticism on my part becomes scaled to how persistently an individual posts junk.

PS...we would have a lot poorer understanding of the world if journalist imposed the lines you describe. Journalist have been going into pandemic hotspots for centuries and the one doing it now followed procedure just as expected. So yes, randomly criticising that instead of recognizing the big human lesson of the mini-doc was a pathetic contribution.


----------



## RandomElk16

backcountry said:


> .
> Journalist are considered "essential" under most state orders. It's kind of an American tradition, similar to having journalist embedded with troops. I think I has something to do with democracies needing quality information and educated citizens.
> 
> Welcome to what journalist have been doing for ages.
> 
> It was a ridiculous, desperate attempt to deflect from the point of my original post. And it failed, miserably.
> 
> Not exactly a critical analysis of my post on your part


These are lines I would use to try and prove a point, while also trying to belittle.

I have thrown some back at you, but you certainly go out of your way often to do it to people here. You have one view on this pandemic and that's it, everyone else is wrong.

My criticism wasn't "stupid crap". I don't think we should expose more people than necessary, period. I will stand by that. Blurred or not, I also would NEVER want to be the person who is on a ventilator (which the journalist all but says is a death sentence) and be the prop for these docs.

You can disagree with me, but I stand by that stance. It's not "stupid" to me.


----------



## backcountry

RandomElk16 said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Journalist are considered "essential" under most state orders. It's kind of an American tradition, similar to having journalist embedded with troops. I think I has something to do with democracies needing quality information and educated citizens.
> 
> Welcome to what journalist have been doing for ages.
> 
> It was a ridiculous, desperate attempt to deflect from the point of my original post. And it failed, miserably.
> 
> Not exactly a critical analysis of my post on your part
> 
> 
> 
> These are lines I would use to try and prove a point, while also trying to belittle.
> 
> I have thrown some back at you, but you certainly go out of your way often to do it to people here. You have one view on this pandemic and that's it, everyone else is wrong.
Click to expand...

Quite untrue. I've changed my stance twice publicly on this issue which is more than I've seen you do. I publicly own my mistakes.

I actually think you are capable of differentiating between belittling ideas and people. I'll stick to living by that standard instead of calling someone an "onery ****". Especially after ironically chastising name calling.

Stupid stuff on the internet has never been safe from full throated criticism. Especially something as petty as a comment about why journalist shouldn't film a mini-doc during a pandemic when there are literally people claiming it's no worse than the seasonal flu. Seems like that mini-doc was desperately needed to me. And I'll double down, it's "stupid crap" for that to be an internet post from that report.

Like I said, it's ridiculous to claim I act kumbaya in these threads, nothing could be further from the truth. As most people have observed, I don't hide from disagreements on stuff of this caliber.


----------



## RandomElk16

Lol.


----------



## Dunkem

Just a thought from me, My granddaughter just graduatedfrom Lee nursing school and was accepted by on of the finest hospitals in Nashville. They like all were having trouble getting masks, my sisters and nieces proceded to sew up 400 of them and they arrived yesterday, So you have medical personal walking around with HARLEY Davidson MASKS, cABELLAS,HUNTING AND FISHING THEMED ETC. wHAT A GREAT THING TO DO WITH SPARE TIME OTHER THAN BICKER AT EACH OTHER ALL DAY.8)


----------



## RandomElk16

Dunkem said:


> Just a thought from me, My granddaughter just graduatedfrom Lee nursing school and was accepted by on of the finest hospitals in Nashville. They like all were having trouble getting masks, my sisters and nieces proceded to sew up 400 of them and they arrived yesterday, So you have medical personal walking around with HARLEY Davidson MASKS, cABELLAS,HUNTING AND FISHING THEMED ETC. wHAT A GREAT THING TO DO WITH SPARE TIME OTHER THAN BICKER AT EACH OTHER ALL DAY.8)


A gal I know here in Utah is taking donations of supplies and then donating the masks to local hospitals. She is pumping out ~40-50 masks a day, 7 days a week.

Kings Camo had given her fabric for another project pre-dating this and she decided it was better to donate that in the form of masks. In fact, if anyone in Northern Utah wants to donate supplies (raw fabric) I could talk to her about it.


----------



## backcountry

Sounds like SLC has a drop-off that they'll use to donate to citizens. 

We are donating material but no one wants me sewing masks. Trust me.


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## taxidermist

Did you see that a deer was in the cabin looking out the window at you?:mrgreen:


----------

