# Just back from the Wildlife Board meeting



## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

I showed up to voice my concern's and only one person stood up for doing away with statewide archery. All other's were in favor of keeping it. 3 of the 5 RAC's approved keeping statewide archery hunting. Yet Keele Johnson and Tom Hatch were able to get what they wanted "personal views" to pass. 

Also it look's like spike hunting will now be statewide. Here not one person stood up in favor of statewide spike hunting, and the RAC's opposed it as well. What a sorry day for hunter's.

This has shown me that the system is broke, we all need to stand up and say enough is enough. We do not need some guy from Blanding pick the way that we enjoy the outdoor's. If your an archer, rifle or smokepole guy, we need to contact the media, newspapers, the capital, and the governor's office and let them know, that the people that they picked to help us are not even listening to what the public want's. They are pushing their own view's and feelings through the system.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

This is bull crap. Why do they even have the RAC or DWR if they are going to do what they want? It sounds like there is more to the story, maybe some money under the table or something, this is BS. :evil:


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

+1

Sad day for all hunters and Utah's wildlife.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

POLITICS+ POLITICS+POLITICS,.......equal's pure BS!

There are just to many finger's in the pie.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Then we need to get to gether as SPORTSMANS and put an end to it. We need to contact the media and state and get this to stop. How do you think SFW got going?


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Then we need to get to gether as SPORTSMANS and put an end to it. We need to contact the media and state and get this to stop. How do you think SFW got going?


Agred. Is that not what the RAC and the Board are for is public input?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I thought e-mails to the RACS and WB was contacting the "State". Good luck with the media, letters to the editor may get published but I doubt anyone is going to do an article on the abuse of powers by the WB.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

Maybe get Gephardt????


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> POLITICS+ POLITICS+POLITICS,.......equal's pure BS!
> 
> There are just to many finger's in the pie.


Question is, whose fingers are in the pie? SFW got hosed on nearly everything they asked for, as did UBA/MDF/BOU. Those 'fingers' are NOT from hunters/sportsmen' hands.

If the ramifications from the proceedings to day weren't so serious, what took place, and how it took place would be comical. The fact that the fate of wildlife and hunters is in these peoples hands is beyond scary! How do we fix the problem, which is NOT hunters/wildlife bit the Wildlife Board, I am not sure. Until hunters grow a set, unite, and make a stand shoulder to shoulder things will only get worse!


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Until hunters grow a set, unite, and make a stand shoulder to shoulder things will only get worse!


How? Is that not what we did? I know I have never SHOWEN up until this year. I know lot of guys that wrote e mails and letter that have never done this before. What more can be done?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> > Until hunters grow a set, unite, and make a stand shoulder to shoulder things will only get worse!
> 
> 
> How? Is that not what we did? I know I have never SHOWEN up until this year. I know lot of guys that wrote e mails and letter that have never done this before. What more can be done?


If you minus the DWR/DNR personnel from the WB meeting today, there were FEWER than* 30* people from the public in attendance. *50,000+* people apply for LE elk tags each year, yet *10 *people SHOWED up to have a say on statewide spike tags. How does that equate to being united and making a stand? :? *16,000 *archery tags are issued each year, *10* people SHOWED up today to make a stand, again how is that SHOWING UP? The best percentage of people SHOWING up for their 'special interest' were the mobility impaired hunters. They had *5 *people show up asking for very little, there are only around *130* of them in the state. That is 3.8% of their group, which still stinks! But they had to WHEEL themselves there. What is the rest of the sportsmen in this states excuse? If only *3.8%* of archers had shown up today that would have been *615 *archers. Tell me, would the archers have stood a better chance of being heard if there were 615 instead of 10 in attendance today? That would be *1923* elk hunters, would their voice been heard if that many had shown up to address the statewide spike issue? We as sportsmen stink at getting what we want because we stink at SHOWING UP!!!


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

weatherby25 said:


> > Until hunters grow a set, unite, and make a stand shoulder to shoulder things will only get worse!
> 
> 
> How? Is that not what we did? I know I have never SHOWEN up until this year. I know lot of guys that wrote e mails and letter that have never done this before. What more can be done?


30 years ago I heard about these wildlife meeting were they talked about up coming changes and recommandations (I don't remember the offical name back then). I thought I would get involved, so I went and even got up a few times. A very good friend (who was 10 years older than I) told me that he had done the same thing earlier in his life. He explained why he stop going, but told me I should go and learn. So I went for the next 5 or 6 years. I walked away with the same feelings. I don't matter and what ever they want to do will eventually come to pass. It may take a few years, but everything they wanted to do eventually did.

My council to you, for what it is worth, is go to the top. You need to get the governers attention and you better have bodies to back it. Any thing less will just net a delay.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

KNUCKLE HEADS< THAT DO NOT LISTEN??? CAN U SAY **** DWR?? I e-mailed them screw balls, I wrote a letters,, I called.. So 77 1/2% of archers just hand smoke blew up the old pie holes!!! Ya know if they were voeted into office. we could vote the turd heads out.. But were stuck with it.. I'am going to write the gov,,He's the one who appointed these DORKS,, It's a REAL BAD DAY FOR WE ARCHERS.. 45 yrs never thought I see it!!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> My council to you, for what it is worth, is go to the top. You need to get the governers attention and you better have bodies to back it. Any thing less will just net a delay.


Good advice. I think we need to organize a march to the state capital DEMANDING our voices be heard! It has worked in the past, 10,000+ hunters marching in camo/orange WILL get noticed! Whose with me?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

i'll do it.

FWIW, broken knees work as well.


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

Exactly, how do we stand up? What is the next step? March the capital? I have little knowledge to how the system is structured. I do know what the original purpose of it was, and I do know its not being fullfilled. 
Could all large organizations work together to get people, I mean "the system", changed? 
I fear for the future of hunting if acts like this continue.
Anybody have any ideas? Would a mass signed patition saying we all are in agreance that the current public imput system does not work, I'm talking thousands of signatures, that end up on the Govener's desk?
What else can be done other than emails? What about phone calls, but who you gunna call? (Ghost busters?)
I'm digging for the next step- I can not and will not stand by and let this happen any longer! :evil:


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

Pro- you can't intirely look at it that way. (as far as not showing up) You ever seen the movie Dukes of Hazrads? The town meeting was held at the same time as the big race!

It is very hard to show up when the meeting is held in the morning on a weekday. Convenient, real convenient! Just because I could not show up because of more inportant things such as providing for my family, does not mean my voice does not count!


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Alright I know I said that I planned on cooling down before I went off but I can't help it.
We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water here!! There are THINKING members of the WB that actually consider what is best for wildlife and sportsman. 

We need to make sure that what went down today doesn't happen again. 

The IRONIC part of this whole deal is that right before the statewide hunt came up for discussion the WB Chairman read portions of a letter from Blanding city asking for more hunters to come there way for economic reasons.

I would suggest that we as sportsmen get past the screw job we took today and show up by e mailing chamber of commerces' city councils, major vendors and anybody that earns their livliehoods from us as hunters passing through their towns each August and let them know that we aren't coming to southern Utah next year to eat in their restaurants, buy their $5.00 a gallon gas or stay in their hotel rooms because members of the wildlife board from their communities feel that we are over running their hills and killing their deer so we plan on staying home BY THE THOUSANDS NEXT YEAR!!!!

I would make sure that any correspondence to Blanding mention the WB member from that area, Panguitch as well as Richfield are not exempt either, they are all biased against archers
let them know that their economic downturn next August is sponsored by these fine members
of the Wildlife Board. SEVERAL THOUSAND OF US AND OUR FAMILIES FRIENDS GAS TANKS AND PILLOWS WILL BE STAYING HOME.

Yeah seeing a few more camps on the hill sucks a whole lot less than less green in the wallet


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

You might just get me out for one more good march PRO.

I myself was quite involved with the RAC process during the 90's, I to got fed up
with the BS and just stoped going. 

I'd say it probably is time to gather again at the state capital.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I didnt know there was meeting today or I would have taken off and went.

start a pickit fence out in front of the dwr building.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> Huntoholic said:
> 
> 
> > My council to you, for what it is worth, is go to the top. You need to get the governers attention and you better have bodies to back it. Any thing less will just net a delay.
> ...


I'll always try something new. A face to face with the governer or a protest at the governers house or what ever, I'm in. Just give me a little heads up, because my work assignment is currently out of town during the week.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

blazingsaddle said:


> Exactly, how do we stand up? What is the next step? March the capital? I have little knowledge to how the system is structured. I do know what the original purpose of it was, and I do know its not being fullfilled.
> Could all large organizations work together to get people, I mean "the system", changed?
> I fear for the future of hunting if acts like this continue.
> Anybody have any ideas? Would a mass signed patition saying we all are in agreance that the current public imput system does not work, I'm talking thousands of signatures, that end up on the Govener's desk?
> ...


You want to know what works. Face to face talk with the governer with thousands standing outside while the reps talk. Letting the governer know that some of us did not vote for him because of what is happening at the DWR. The News will catch on and then the future board members will respect your voioce.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> You want to know what works. Face to face talk with the governer with thousands standing outside while the reps talk. Letting the governer know that some of us did not vote for him because of what is happening at the DWR. The News will catch on and then the future board members will respect your voice.


**** straight!


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## muleymadness (Jan 23, 2008)

> "personal views"


Doesn't make a lot of sense, so what are these guys personal views??????? The only reason is they think it's crowded is all. What are they saying??

Just curious to hear from you guys that were there?


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## prettytiedup (Dec 19, 2007)

We hunters have done this to ourselves. Every time a recomendation was made to increase tag numbers on LE elk units hunters and special interest groups screamed about how it would ruin the quality, that there wouldn't be any big bulls, that they might actually have to hunt for an elk or that the dwr was doing it for money. Guess what, you aren't going to have to worry about them increasing LE tag numbers any more. :roll: 

It has been said, be carefull what you wish for cause you just might get it. SFW and alot of hunters didn't want to see an increase in LE elk tags and that is exactly what they got.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I see prettytiedup has been paying attention, That's on the money.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Huntoholic said:
> 
> 
> > You want to know what works. Face to face talk with the governer with thousands standing outside while the reps talk. Letting the governer know that some of us did not vote for him because of what is happening at the DWR. The News will catch on and then the future board members will respect your voice.
> ...


That is cool and all and I do agree but this statement


> while the reps talk.


 makes me question one thing. The REP'S did show up for us. The REP's got shot down and so did we. Even the big powerful SFW was shut down on there ideas. I am not about giving up(take a look at the politics thread) but maybe it is time to try something else.

Where was I 400?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Ahhhhh, the politics in wildlife management. Ain't it great?!!?? NOT!!!!!

*Anyone hear how the vote went down on changing the rifle hunt dates of various LTD Entry Deer Units??*

Prettyriedup addressed the Spike Elk issue perfectly. Some of us saw the writting on the wall and have stated such over 5 years ago. Age class management should not be the number One objective. Manage to male/female ratios and you can ensure both opportunity and quality.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

OK LOOK I just tried to send e mails to the Mayor of Blanding from the City website and surprise I got an error.

I am telling you if we get on the phone tomorrow and call these cities and ask to speak with the Mayor and let them know that we as northern hunters don't feel welcome in their communities 
sh!t will get handled. Tell them that Keele Johnson let us northern boys know we ain't welcome so we plan on keeping our money at home next August. I plan on calling every city south of Nephi tomorrow and just letting them know that I ain't coming and neither is anyone I can get in touch with. This is thousands of hunters and hundreds of thousands of dollars
in an economic downturn this is going to sting. Let them also know that certain members of the Wildlife Board pulled our invitation and we will get results.


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

O.k. explain "state wide spike units" this does not include the current any bull units????Right???


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## suave300 (Sep 11, 2007)

Packout said:


> *Anyone hear how the vote went down on changing the rifle hunt dates of various LTD Entry Deer Units??*


I dont remember exactly, but I think they approved the DWRs recomendations about that.

But they did vote *against* the RACs (again), and changed the 5 day hunt to 9 days for general season deer hunts in the southern and southeastern as well!

The board didn't listen to the RACs, and voted against them on *MANY* different issues!!


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## suave300 (Sep 11, 2007)

north slope said:


> O.k. explain "state wide spike units" this does not include the current any bull units????Right???


Right. Just on the limited entry units. EXCEPT Diamond mountain (there was emotions involved on that one :roll: ).


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

suave300 said:


> north slope said:
> 
> 
> > O.k. explain "state wide spike units" this does not include the current any bull units????Right???
> ...


Wheeeewww


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

I e-mailed the board and tried to be very respectful and polite. no more mister nice guy. 

sportsman need to take over the wildlife in this state only active sportsman should be allowed to vote on wildlife proposals.if you guys want to march I will also get off work 
i haven't gone to the meetings in the past because I'm not a very good public speaker but I really want to do something to help. let me know what I can do


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

weatherby25 said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > Huntoholic said:
> ...


The Reps at the meeting today were there partly because of the organizations that the Rep. Reps sitting nose to nose with governer with many people outside shows a diferent picture. Even calling for the resignation of a couple of board members will go a long way. If you have a couple of thousand people in hunters orange standing in front, I'm pretty sure this will get noticed. At the same time singling out a couple of communities and letting them and the governer know, I think will go a long way.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

I sent in a request to Trail Tv and I am sending one out to Gephart and Roughin Outdoor's. 

If the gay people and the hispanic's can have a big rally then so can I. Tell everyone and let's get this going for next week.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Send letters into the Trib and Deseret News as well.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I think the WD believe they sit on a throne. They need a serious wake up call in a big way. One WB member said that making archers pick a region is based on biology. He also said that hunters don't know much about biology so that is why we are against the spike tags.

I'm willing to march with you guys.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

wileywapati said:


> OK LOOK I just tried to send e mails to the Mayor of Blanding from the City website and surprise I got an error.
> 
> I am telling you if we get on the phone tomorrow and call these cities and ask to speak with the Mayor and let them know that we as northern hunters don't feel welcome in their communities
> sh!t will get handled. Tell them that Keele Johnson let us northern boys know we ain't welcome so we plan on keeping our money at home next August. I plan on calling every city south of Nephi tomorrow and just letting them know that I ain't coming and neither is anyone I can get in touch with. This is thousands of hunters and hundreds of thousands of dollars
> in an economic downturn this is going to sting. Let them also know that certain members of the Wildlife Board pulled our invitation and we will get results.


I am not only ready to march but will call also. One other thing if this bull **** is not taken care of I am ready to back up my phone call and will refuse to drive further south than Orem, ever.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Is anything in session on Wednsday or Thursday? Capital building?


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I really don't have a dog in this hunt as I quit hunting bull elk a long time ago because it became to confusing to keep up with the new rules and I have only donr the archery deer hunt once but this sounds like a bunch of crap and if you all put together a march or some kind of protest I will be there with you.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Got to check your target, folks. I think the target is due process and an inept, (if not corrupt), Wildlife Board. And if that's the target, the correct ammo is a class action law suit charging violation of the Pittman-Robertson Act and notification of the Western Association of Fish & Wildlife Agencies that member Jim Karpowitz and the Utah DWR is acting in direct violation of the North American Wildlife Conservation model.


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## IDHunter (Dec 17, 2007)

I'm a nonresident who spent $1,800 dollars on general season tags and application fees in Utah this year. This doesn't even include what I spent on travel, food, and gas. I've never been more mad and am thinking about taking my money elsewhere. 

If there is any type of protest count me in. I will drop work in a second and make the drive there!


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

One thing has become perfectly clear- The RAC/WB system does not work. I attended and spoke at my first RAC and later emailed all wildlife board members politely supporting statewide archery. It will not help us now but we all should make a pact to never attend one of these meaningless meetings again. Let them have their meeting for public input and nobody show. A quiet form of protest.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Tom,

That is such a great attitude to have. Maybe if more people would have been proactive in the first place this wouldnt have been a problem. Now it is, so let's try and fix the problem, before it gets even more out of hand. 

I am hoping that if there is a rally, you would at least be part of that.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> One thing has become perfectly clear- The RAC/WB system does not work. I attended and spoke at my first RAC and later emailed all wildlife board members politely supporting statewide archery. [quote:2t30avbp]It will not help us now but we all should make a pact to never attend one of these meaningless meetings again. Let them have their meeting for public input and nobody show. A quiet form of protest.


[/quote:2t30avbp]

I think we need to attend the meetings more than ever. If we sit home or quit going then things will only get worse for us. We need to get organized better. Archery, ML and Rifle hunters need to all stand together.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Sorry CS...But, I think we should NOT steperate ourselves in these meetings...afterall, isn't the whole idea to make hunting better...PERIOD!!!! if we really start seating separately...then really get into the whole us against them mentality...it will hurt everyone in the end! I agree this atrocity is not something we can stand be and let go. We wiil stand up and FIGHT! We will bring accountability to this whole fiasco! And...and heads are going start rolling starting with that **** Tom Hatch character...


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Here is just a my opinion so take it for what it is worth, but I don't think a march is the way to go and here are my reasons. When I see marches on TV I am generally turned off to the whole thing and think to myself look at those idiots. I don't think it would help out hunters image, especially if everyone marches in camo or hunter orange, most non hunters think all hunters are ******** and idiots, this might just cement that idea into their heads. I am going to have to agree with Finn also. I think we need to make our voice heard, maybe through news outlets and other media sources. We shouldn't boycott the meetings, that is counterproductive. People need to know how corrupt the system is and the Wildlife Board needs to be outed. Now I am sure their are some good members on the board also, so I think it would be prudent to not out the Board as a whole, just the corrupt individuals. Sorry for the rambling, these are just my opinions. :mrgreen:


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Here is another idea.

Get all the sportsmans groups together and pull their donations and volunteer work for one year. Then let the governor, media and director know why. Yes it will hurt, but they can take the money from that year and use it the following to try to recover.

You want to kill the snake, cut the head off.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Sorry CS...But, I think we should NOT steperate ourselves in these meetings...afterall, isn't the whole idea to make hunting better...PERIOD!!!! if we really start seating separately...then really get into the whole us against them mentality


I think you misunderstood me.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

What is the quickest way to get the media involved? Throw a party, rally, whatever the hell you want to call it. When people gather the media gathers.

If one or two people call the media they will just think, or someone got their feelings hurt. When 10,000 people contact the media then **** starts rolling. I like the first option best since it is fast, and gets the point across.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

So whats the plan here you guys gonna march or you gonna file a law suit or what? Seems a lot of talk is getting done but not seeing any plans or projections....


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

Finnegan said:


> Got to check your target, folks. I think the target is due process and an inept, (if not corrupt), Wildlife Board. And if that's the target, the correct ammo is a class action law suit charging violation of the Pittman-Robertson Act and notification of the Western Association of Fish & Wildlife Agencies that member Jim Karpowitz and the Utah DWR is acting in direct violation of the North American Wildlife Conservation model.


is there any lawyers out there willing to help?


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## jakalope (Dec 5, 2008)

YOU HAVE ALL LOST YOUR MINDS!!!!!!!! A RALLY, TALK TO THE MEDIA, ETC..... YOUR ALL GOING NUTS OVER SOMETHING THAT ISN'T THAT BIG OF A DEAL. YOU ARE ALL ACTING LIKE THEY JUST BANNED HUNTING IN UTAH AND THAT THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR GUNS AWAY!!!! ALL THEY HAVE DONE IS MADE YOU PICK A UNIT TO HUNT JUST LIKE THE SMOKEPOLE AND RIFLE HUNTS THATS IT GUYS THAT IS IT. REMEMBER THAT THERE IS JUST AS MANY SPORTSMAN OUT THERE THAT ARE FOR DOING AWAY WITH THE STATEWIDE ARCHERY AS YOU GUYS. GET A LIFE, MOVE ON AND STAY IN ONE UNIT TO HUNT. SO. UTAH'S DEER HERDS HAVE BEEN SUFFERING FROM EVERYONE IN THE STATE CONVERGING AND FLIPPIN STICKS AT EVERY TOM, DICK, AND FUZZY HEADED DEER THAT COMES ALONG. THERE ARE GOING TO BE THINGS THAT THE BOARD PASSES FROM YEAR TO YEAR THAT WE DON'T AGREE WITH BUT THAT IS NO REASON TO GO AND CAUSE A REVOLT AND GET THE MEDIA INVOLVED ALL YOU WILL DO IS END UP LOOKING LIKE ALL THE OTHER RAINBOW T-SHIRTWEARIN, MAZDA MIATA DRIVEN PEOPLE ON THE NEWS PROTESTESTING. YOUR ALL STARTING TO SOUND LIKE A BUNCH OF ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS PROTESTING SLUG FARMING IN INDIA. GET A GRIP, CALM DOWN ,AND REALIZE THAT THEY ARE JUST GOING BACK TO THE WAY THE HUNTS USED TO BE FOR ABOUT AS LONG AS I REMEMBER. THIS IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD AND WE WILL ALL STILL BE OUT BEATING THE BRUSH NEXT FALL ENJOYING SOMETHING WE LOVE!!!!!


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

Hummm this should get good. I hope you know what you have just said and who you said it too.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

The travesty is that the wildlife board is disregarding the structure and policies that were put in place.

Content has almost nothing to do with why people are upset.


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

jakalope-
You have missed the entire boat here. Its not that we lost or gained anything here, its the way the WB went against most all public input, including the RACs and other major organizations. There NEEDS to be public input, good or bad, and it needs to be looked at carefully- right now, it is not being looked at.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

jakalope said:


> YOU HAVE ALL LOST YOUR MINDS!!!!!!!! A RALLY, TALK TO THE MEDIA, ETC..... YOUR ALL GOING NUTS OVER SOMETHING THAT ISN'T THAT BIG OF A DEAL. YOU ARE ALL ACTING LIKE THEY JUST BANNED HUNTING IN UTAH AND THAT THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR GUNS AWAY!!!! ALL THEY HAVE DONE IS MADE YOU PICK A UNIT TO HUNT JUST LIKE THE SMOKEPOLE AND RIFLE HUNTS THATS IT GUYS THAT IS IT. REMEMBER THAT THERE IS JUST AS MANY SPORTSMAN OUT THERE THAT ARE FOR DOING AWAY WITH THE STATEWIDE ARCHERY AS YOU GUYS. GET A LIFE, MOVE ON AND STAY IN ONE UNIT TO HUNT. SO. UTAH'S DEER HERDS HAVE BEEN SUFFERING FROM EVERYONE IN THE STATE CONVERGING AND FLIPPIN STICKS AT EVERY TOM, DICK, AND FUZZY HEADED DEER THAT COMES ALONG. THERE ARE GOING TO BE THINGS THAT THE BOARD PASSES FROM YEAR TO YEAR THAT WE DON'T AGREE WITH BUT THAT IS NO REASON TO GO AND CAUSE A REVOLT AND GET THE MEDIA INVOLVED ALL YOU WILL DO IS END UP LOOKING LIKE ALL THE OTHER RAINBOW T-SHIRTWEARIN, MAZDA MIATA DRIVEN PEOPLE ON THE NEWS PROTESTESTING. YOUR ALL STARTING TO SOUND LIKE A BUNCH OF ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS PROTESTING SLUG FARMING IN INDIA. *GET A GRIP, CALM DOWN* ,AND REALIZE THAT THEY ARE JUST GOING BACK TO THE WAY THE HUNTS USED TO BE FOR ABOUT AS LONG AS I REMEMBER. THIS IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD AND WE WILL ALL STILL BE OUT BEATING THE BRUSH NEXT FALL ENJOYING SOMETHING WE LOVE!!!!!


I think you need to take a bit of your own advise, cut out all the caps for christ sake it is stupid. :roll: I think you are missing the point, it is like Tree said, it is the utter disregard of all suggestions to the wildlife board. You are acting tough now, but what if it was "your" type of hunting that was affected, you would be upset like us. I disagree with a rally, I think it would do more harm than good, but I do think the wildlife board needs to be outed.

How did you come to the conclusion that there are as much against statewide archery as are for it? How do you figure the deer herd is being hurt by archery hunters? Please answer these questions so I can better understand your viewpoint.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I am not going to waste my time and read all the BS spewed in this thread, but I would like to comment on the first few posts:
You guys have absolutely no understanding of what the RAC process and WB is supposed to do. For some stupid reason, you guys think that the RACs and WB are supposed to make their decisions based upon who or how many people stand up in favor or in opposition of a proposal...but this is totally false and inaccurate. The RACs are designed to be information gathering councils...they gather input from the public and from the DWR--which is the wildlife governing agency. After gathering that input, the RACs are supposed to make a decision upon proposals and then to pass their decisions on to the WB. The WB, then, meets to decide what should be done based upon all input and what is best for each member's constituency. What the WB is telling you as sportsmen is that they, as a board, agreed with the DWR's proposals over your own....

Just because a few sportsmen stand up and voice an opinion is NOT a justifiable reason for the WB or the RACs to follow suit. You guys must remember that RAC members and WB members are supposed to make decisions based upon what is best for those they represent. That constituency includes people from all walks of life and includes: agricultural interests,
sportsmen, non-consumptive wildlife users, locally elected public officials, federal land agencies, and public at large (including business). Not all the WB members or RAC members represent sportsmen! Also, an individual or group does NOT have to be present at a RAC or Board meeting to voice an opinion...NONE of you have any idea what kind of input the RAC members or Board members received via email, phone, or personal conversation.

Also, you guys seem to forget that the WB does NOT have to follow suit with the RAC committes. But, if they choose to go against the RACs they must explain their reasoning in a letter written to the RACs. 3 out of 5 RACs may well have voted for the statewide archery...but that means that 2 voted against it. Also, how many of the RACs voted for the statewide spike proposal?

Personally, I am no fan of the RAC or WB process...but, claiming that the RACs and WB should just listen to those present at meetings or that they should just make decisions based on public input is false. My opinion is that the DWR should be--as the governing agency--the decision makers; sadly, though, our former Governor Leavitt changed all that!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> I am not going to waste my time and read all the BS spewed in this thread, but I would like to comment on the first few posts:
> You guys have absolutely no understanding of what the RAC process and WB is supposed to do. For some stupid reason, you guys think that the RACs and WB are supposed to make their decisions based upon who or how many people stand up in favor or in opposition of a proposal...but this is totally false and inaccurate. The RACs are designed to be information gathering councils...they gather input from the public and from the DWR--which is the wildlife governing agency. After gathering that input, the RACs are supposed to make a decision upon proposals and then to pass their decisions on to the WB. The WB, then, meets to decide what should be done based upon all input and what is best for each member's constituency. What the WB is telling you as sportsmen is that they, as a board, agreed with the DWR's proposals over your own....
> 
> Just because a few sportsmen stand up and voice an opinion is NOT a justifiable reason for the WB or the RACs to follow suit. You guys must remember that RAC members and WB members are supposed to make decisions based upon what is best for those they represent. That constituency includes people from all walks of life and includes: agricultural interests,
> ...


Thanks for the history lesson, but I think most understand how the process is "suppose" to work. As much as you would like to deny it the wildlife board has some personal agenda and I don't know what it is or who is leading it. The WB had no evidence or reasoning for what they did? So how can we support that? There something fishy going on here and it does need to be brought up. So you are fine with the WB having ultimate power and not listening to any body? I see you said you aren't a fan of the process, so why are you defending it? I get the feeling from your threads that you think that everyone on here is an idiot and you have to come on here and explain to everyone how it 'really' is. We don't need to be patronized.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

If you understand how the process is supposed to work, then why the hell are you bitching about it when it did exactly what it was supposed to do? How do you know the WB didn't listen to anybody? Didn't they listen to the RACs? Didn't their vote coincide with 2 RACs and didn't their vote coincide with most of the RACs on the spike issue?


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> If you understand how the process is supposed to work, then why the hell are you bitching about it when it did exactly what it was supposed to do? How do you know the WB didn't listen to anybody? Didn't they listen to the RACs? Didn't their vote coincide with 2 RACs and didn't their vote coincide with most of the RACs on the spike issue?


I don't think it did exactly what it was suppose to do, that is why I am bitching. What evidence did they have to support their decisions besides a few personal opinions? They could have listened to the RAC's, but it went in one ear and out the other. You are just tickled pink because they did what you wanted them too, which is fine, but it doesn't make it right decision. So it is alright for the WB to do what they want? Shouldn't there be some kind of check and balance system set up? They have too much power and are going to single handily screw up this state if left alone. What they have done now is not the end of the world, but it is the start of a downward slope and that is my fear.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

jahan said:


> I don't think it did exactly what it was suppose to do, that is why I am bitching. What evidence did they have to support their decisions besides a few personal opinions? They could have listened to the RAC's, but it went in one ear and out the other. You are just tickled pink because they did what you wanted them too, which is fine, but it doesn't make it right decision. So it is alright for the WB to do what they want? Shouldn't there be some kind of check and balance system set up? They have too much power and are going to single handily screw up this state if left alone. What they have done now is not the end of the world, but it is the start of a downward slope and that is my fear.


In your mind, what is the WB supposed to do? Just follow suit with the sportsmen who come and voice an opinion? Again, the WB is supposed to make their decision based upon what input they receive...input from the DWR, sportsmen, local business and political leaders, non-consumptive users, and agricultural intersts. What reasoning do you have that this was NOT done. It seems very obvious to me that the WB agreed with the input they received from the DWR.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it did exactly what it was suppose to do, that is why I am bitching. What evidence did they have to support their decisions besides a few personal opinions? They could have listened to the RAC's, but it went in one ear and out the other. You are just tickled pink because they did what you wanted them too, which is fine, but it doesn't make it right decision. So it is alright for the WB to do what they want? Shouldn't there be some kind of check and balance system set up? They have too much power and are going to single handily screw up this state if left alone. What they have done now is not the end of the world, but it is the start of a downward slope and that is my fear.
> ...


This is just going in circles you aren't answering my questions and I obviously ain't answering your questions the way you want. The WB should do what you mentioned above, but they since they are final say they should have plenty of evidence to support their decision, I don't believe they have this evidence. That is where the problem comes in, they did what they wanted for some unknown reason and that is why I am irritated.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

jahan said:


> Here is just a my opinion so take it for what it is worth, but I don't think a march is the way to go and here are my reasons. When I see marches on TV I am generally turned off to the whole thing and think to myself look at those idiots. I don't think it would help out hunters image, especially if everyone marches in camo or hunter orange, most non hunters think all hunters are ******** and idiots, this might just cement that idea into their heads. I am going to have to agree with Finn also. I think we need to make our voice heard, maybe through news outlets and other media sources. We shouldn't boycott the meetings, that is counterproductive. People need to know how corrupt the system is and the Wildlife Board needs to be outed. Now I am sure their are some good members on the board also, so I think it would be prudent to not out the Board as a whole, just the corrupt individuals. Sorry for the rambling, these are just my opinions. :mrgreen:


I appreciate your opinion Jahan however I am not only an avid hunter and fisherman but I am also an avid motorcycle enthusiast. I know from first hand personal experience that thousands of people showing up tends to get the attention of the elected officials. Every so often a group of do gooders will attempt to shove a helmet law through the legislature and me and my fellow riders will organise and assemble at the capitol and so far Utah still has no helmet law for riders over 18. Rallies and marches are a very effective means of getting a groups message delivered to gov't officials. If you think people look down on hunters you ought to see the looks I get when I suit up in my leathers. I suspect our elected leaders can and would veto the wildlife board if hunters were to show up in large numbers. I am not talking about going to the capitol and acting like a bunch of post-menopausal women who have failed to take their estrogen but a show of force at the capitol along with delivering a written statement to the senate and house leadership as well as the governor and the media would go along way toward reversing the idiotic actions of the wildlife board.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

You know back in the 1950's the state issued doe tags and hunters bought them and burned them because they were protesting against the doe tags.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > Here is just a my opinion so take it for what it is worth, but I don't think a march is the way to go and here are my reasons. When I see marches on TV I am generally turned off to the whole thing and think to myself look at those idiots. I don't think it would help out hunters image, especially if everyone marches in camo or hunter orange, most non hunters think all hunters are ******** and idiots, this might just cement that idea into their heads. I am going to have to agree with Finn also. I think we need to make our voice heard, maybe through news outlets and other media sources. We shouldn't boycott the meetings, that is counterproductive. People need to know how corrupt the system is and the Wildlife Board needs to be outed. Now I am sure their are some good members on the board also, so I think it would be prudent to not out the Board as a whole, just the corrupt individuals. Sorry for the rambling, these are just my opinions. :mrgreen:
> ...


I completely respect your opinion and I also believe it is effective, I just don't know if it puts out the right image per say. If a march was made I just don't know if camo and orange is the way to go, maybe if everyone wore nice clothes it would be taken seriously.

Here is my reason, I am proud to hunt and am not embarrassed at all about it. I have met many people that automatically associate hunters with being *******, inbred idiots. When they see a huge group of people marching with their camo and orange on, this just cements this in their minds even more. Now if the march was done and everyone looked really professional I think it would be taken more seriously. I guess even camo and orange wouldn't be that bad, but you know their would be the people showing up with their People Eating Tasty Animal shirts and crap like that. While I think it is funny, it might piss off a lot of fence sitters and I hate to say it but we as hunters are out numbered, so we must watch what we do in the public eye.

This kind of reminds me of when I played High school football. Our coach use to preach to use to be on our best behavior because we were already perceived to be trouble by most of the teachers at the school. It was a stereotype that was given to football players if they liked it or not. He said if we did ten good things and one guy did something bad, they wouldn't notice the good we did, they would just notice the bad things.

Sorry for the rant, but I guess I am not convinced yet that is the best way to go. My mind can be changed though. :mrgreen: :lol:


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

All three issues that were voted on yesterday while I was there went against the public and RAC input. This is the problem, personally I will adapt and could really careless about the pick your region. But due to the fact that the board IGNORED all input is wrong and that is what is pissing me off.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

utfireman said:


> All three issues that were voted on yesterday while I was there went against the public and RAC input. This is the problem, personally I will adapt and could really careless about the pick your region. But due to the fact that the board IGNORED all input is wrong and that is what is pissing me off.


Exactly my beef. +10000000


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

jakalope said:


> YOU HAVE ALL LOST YOUR MINDS!!!!!!!! A RALLY, TALK TO THE MEDIA, ETC..... YOUR ALL GOING NUTS OVER SOMETHING THAT ISN'T THAT BIG OF A DEAL. YOU ARE ALL ACTING LIKE THEY JUST BANNED HUNTING IN UTAH AND THAT THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR GUNS AWAY!!!! ALL THEY HAVE DONE IS MADE YOU PICK A UNIT TO HUNT JUST LIKE THE SMOKEPOLE AND RIFLE HUNTS THATS IT GUYS THAT IS IT. REMEMBER THAT THERE IS JUST AS MANY SPORTSMAN OUT THERE THAT ARE FOR DOING AWAY WITH THE STATEWIDE ARCHERY AS YOU GUYS. GET A LIFE, MOVE ON AND STAY IN ONE UNIT TO HUNT. SO. UTAH'S DEER HERDS HAVE BEEN SUFFERING FROM EVERYONE IN THE STATE CONVERGING AND FLIPPIN STICKS AT EVERY TOM, DICK, AND FUZZY HEADED DEER THAT COMES ALONG. THERE ARE GOING TO BE THINGS THAT THE BOARD PASSES FROM YEAR TO YEAR THAT WE DON'T AGREE WITH BUT THAT IS NO REASON TO GO AND CAUSE A REVOLT AND GET THE MEDIA INVOLVED ALL YOU WILL DO IS END UP LOOKING LIKE ALL THE OTHER RAINBOW T-SHIRTWEARIN, MAZDA MIATA DRIVEN PEOPLE ON THE NEWS PROTESTESTING. YOUR ALL STARTING TO SOUND LIKE A BUNCH OF ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS PROTESTING SLUG FARMING IN INDIA. GET A GRIP, CALM DOWN ,AND REALIZE THAT THEY ARE JUST GOING BACK TO THE WAY THE HUNTS USED TO BE FOR ABOUT AS LONG AS I REMEMBER. THIS IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD AND WE WILL ALL STILL BE OUT BEATING THE BRUSH NEXT FALL ENJOYING SOMETHING WE LOVE!!!!!


Dude I am not a doctor but I suspect you have a serious case of cranial-rectal inversion. You are either very young or have an extremely short memory. I am only 41 years old and I don't have to search very far back in my memory when all the weapons had statewide hunting for the deer hunt. I suspect this change for the archery hunt is not being brought about by archers in the southern region but by disgruntled rifle hunters that think the invasion of archers from the north are killing deer they think they own. Before you start spouting off and yelling about something you don't know anything about check your facts and history of hunting in our great state.


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

What did they decide about buying points?


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

The guy who said they,,, the dwr and big game board. were just going back to the way it use to be ..Hasen't hunted Utah with a bow very long..Use to be u bought your archery tag over the counter,, either sex.. if u also had a rifle tag.. which was legal. You could fill both tags with archery tackle.. As for the DWR (the dept of wildlife revnue ) and the big game board doing what most hunters,, u say most wanted.. Is bogus,,77 per cent. wanted things to remain as they were.. I e-mailed the board the dwr .. the gov's office and any one that would listen.. And GUESS WHAT??? they didn't listen. they just rolled the way.we all knew they would,, And seeing how poop runs down hill.. I figure all archers. took it in the kisser,,I've hunted this beautiful state ,, in Southern Utah for 45 yrs.. My family is from So. Utah.. And now it looks like all the TURD HEADS!! who are in charge may take away the chance for my grand-sons and sons- to hunt S Utah during are usual first 2 weeks. With the starting of school and such. this should make a real good impression on are younger hunters..Instead of solving a problem, they have created another. How long will it be before they (DWR) decide The Current Creek area is full The Strawberry area is to full..How about all of the Manti is full up.How about up North.. if you can find land thats not private . public lands may be full up, Arehery hunters keep lookin ofver your shoulders..Cause its comin.and we deserve better,, As for the people in charge,, I have no respect for ya. THANKS AGAIN FOR NOT HEARING US, You all should be ashamed.for you do not represent the majority!! All you archers . young and old,, don't let em rape us on this !!!.E-mail the sports writers for the trib.... And one question.. YA THINK THEY WILL EVER PUT A CAP ON THE PIUTE TRAIL RIDERS?? There hasen't been an impact by themm RIGHT???


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Who's looking out for who?? ITS CRAP


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

utfireman said:


> All three issues that were voted on yesterday while I was there went against the public and RAC input. This is the problem, personally I will adapt and could really careless about the pick your region. But due to the fact that the board IGNORED all input is wrong and that is what is **** me off.


Bingo! If wyoming2utah were to ever bother SHOWING up and see the proceedings I am sure his viewpoint would be different. The WB IGNORED the RAC recommendations on MOST issues, they acted like yesterday was the first time they had ever heard of the issues at hand, even after one of them told me during a break he had received HUNDREDS of emails on the issues. The mere fact that the fate of hunting is decided by the DWR making recommendations, NOT on biology, but on perceptions, and then have public input 100-1 against what the DWR recommended, and after MORE RAC boards voted AGAINST the DWR recommendations, the Wildlife Board went with the DWR recommendation that Anis Aoude admitted REPEATEDLY was based on PERCEPTIONS, not biology or need. Now tell me Mr W2U, how is that what is "supposed" to happen? :? :evil: :roll:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not sure what the argument is, or why we as hunters would be arguing about it.

The RAC voted and recommended one thing, partially due to public input, partially due to them not being complete idiots, and the WB IG-****ING-NORED them.


How would you feel if John McCain received 65% of the votes, but somehow a handful of powerful politicians stuck Barrack into office???? SAME THING!


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I thought we passed an initiative a few years back that required all wildlife decisions to be based on biology and sound science or did that only apply to other ballot initiatives? Another point I thought of is couldn't we get an initiative on the ballot to disolve the wildlife board and replace it with something that would be more responsive to what,the people who by and large fund the wildlife programs,want?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

The statewide spike tags will cause fewer LE bull elk tags to be issued. You cannot kill spikes and harvest branch antler bulls without cutting the number of tags. The odds of drawing a tag will be reduced and the quality of the unit will go down because fewer bulls are being recruited to the herd. Spikes will be slaughtered on units that are very accessible.

Anis even said that LE tags will be reduced.

We need I400 more than ever now. I400 is a lot better than the plan that the DWR has.

The NM bull elk hunt is looking better all the time.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> We need I400 more than ever now. I400 is a lot better than the plan that the DWR has.


I agree and you know how I feel about I 400.

How many LE tags do you think that they are going to have to cut? Do you think the cuts will start in 2009?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

utfireman said:


> All three issues that were voted on yesterday while I was there went against the public and RAC input. This is the problem, personally I will adapt and could really careless about the pick your region. But due to the fact that the board IGNORED all input is wrong and that is what is **** me off.


Sorry, that is just plain flat out bull****! You have no idea what kind of input the Board received from telephone conversations, email, letters, personal conversations etc...

...also, not all of the RACs voted the way you believe. Saying that you were flat out ignored is plain bull ****. What I am seeing from many of you is pure sour grapes pissing and moaning. I personally have read numerous comments made at RAC meetings and at WB meetings that supported both ideas that many on this site are ticked about. Claiming that the WBs or RACs ignored public opinion is flat false and wrong. The WB simply didn't follow your opinion...

A couple other facts: 1) The DWR will NOT recommend a reduction of LE tags. Like Anis presented in the informational last year, there is room for more LE tags even WITH spike tags 2) You can kill spikes and branch antlered bulls on the same unit and still have lots of big bulls. Success rates for spike hunting hover around 15%...and a substantial number of yearling bulls always are left unharvested yearly. You will still be seeing yearling bulls recruited into the older bull population. Units like the Boulder and the Beaver are proof of this 3) The only way LE tags will go down is if the WB gets afraid of losing quality. My bet is that it won't happen!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> A couple other facts: 1) The DWR will NOT recommend a reduction of LE tags. Like Anis presented in the informational last year, there is room for more LE tags even WITH spike tags 2) You can kill spikes and branch antlered bulls on the same unit and still have lots of big bulls. Success rates for spike hunting hover around 15%...and a substantial number of yearling bulls always are left unharvested yearly. You will still be seeing yearling bulls recruited into the older bull population. Units like the Boulder and the Beaver are proof of this 3) The only way LE tags will go down is if the WB gets afraid of losing quality. My bet is that it won't happen!


Wyo2ut, if you showed up to the meetings then you would have heard his presentation. He said it would affect the LE mature elk tags. Your not a biologist. Anis is. The beaver and boulder could issue more tags if more spikes were recruited to the herd. The reason the Beaver and Boulder still have big bulls is because they issue fewer LE tags than the number of spikes being recruited to the herd.

They won't be able to increase the number of LE elk tags, kill spikes, and maintain a average age of harvest of 5 to 6 on many of the units. It simply wont work. It's called COMMON SENSE. I'm not a biologist.

Mr. Hepworth aka w2u. Your an English Teacher wannabe internet biologist.


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## skeptic (Apr 17, 2008)

Alright here is my first post. I have watched and read these forums for years, I have never wanted to post because of all the back and forth whining, juvenile attacks and so forth. I have learned from some of you and enjoyed Pro and W2U for a while now. 
I am the last hunter in my family now (father and brothers lost interest with all the rule changes several years ago) and I am trying to get my grandchildren interested. I have Archery hunted in Southern Utah, Fishlake, Boobe Hole, for the last 25 years ( i live in sandy) 
I do not understand why picking your unit for the first half of the season is that big of deal, I usually spend 2-3 weeks straight on the mountain. I get that the board did not pay attention to all concerned but is that really that surprising? The board is run politically and everybody has different opinions how it should be run, just look at all these posts, there are a lot of hunters that will be fine with these decisions and we can debate the validity forever. I spent 21 days on the mountain this year camped just off the Piute trail and have seen more people every year both hunters and riders. Overcrowded? no just more people, hike 500 yards off the road and your alone. I personally just don't see how this will change the way anybody really hunts, so here we go please enlighten me. And be nice I just want to know how this honestly will affect you.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

skeptic said:


> Alright here is my first post. I have watched and read these forums for years, I have never wanted to post because of all the back and forth whining, juvenile attacks and so forth. I have learned from some of you and enjoyed Pro and W2U for a while now.
> I am the last hunter in my family now (father and brothers lost interest with all the rule changes several years ago) and I am trying to get my grandchildren interested. I have Archery hunted in Southern Utah, Fishlake, Boobe Hole, for the last 25 years ( i live in sandy)
> I do not understand why picking your unit for the first half of the season is that big of deal, I usually spend 2-3 weeks straight on the mountain. I get that the board did not pay attention to all concerned but is that really that surprising? The board is run politically and everybody has different opinions how it should be run, just look at all these posts, there are a lot of hunters that will be fine with these decisions and we can debate the validity forever. I spent 21 days on the mountain this year camped just off the Piute trail and have seen more people every year both hunters and riders. Overcrowded? no just more people, hike 500 yards off the road and your alone. I personally just don't see how this will change the way anybody really hunts, so here we go please enlighten me. And be nice I just want to know how this honestly will affect you.


there is much more to it than just picking a unit to hunt. my beef is it took me 17 years to draw a elk tag, and at my age I my never draw again. instead of giving spike tags I want to do away with spike hunting and go strictly to limited entry so the average hunter could have a better chance of drawing a limited entry hunt


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's a thought, The southern region may loose a few archery deer hunter's.....

But...............................

Has anyone considered how many new archery spike elk hunter's are going to show up??
With new unlimited archery spike hunting on Monroe, Fillmore, S/W desert, Dutton, 
Paunsaugunt, and Panquitch Lake.........All in the southern region.

I'm guessing 5000+ minimum.......What do you guy's think, How many new elk hunters
go south to hunt spike's?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I just realized, those archery tag's are either sex, So I guess the southern region just
got a bunch of new cow tag's, guy's can chase them with there bow aswell.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

LE hunters who have waited 10 + years to draw a tag will be pissed with all the spike hunters out in the field with them.


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## itchytriggerfinger (Sep 12, 2007)

any other changes happen that we haven't heard about yet?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Here's a thought, The southern region may loose a few archery deer hunter's.....
> 
> But...............................
> 
> ...


I mentioned this very thing yesterday at the Wildlife Board. Anis stood there like a deer in the head lights completely void of anything intelligent to reply with. Keele Johnson, the least competent of the incompetent Board, had no response when I directed my question at him either. Remember, they is NO CAP for the number of archery spike tags issued each year, so you could see 5000 easily surpassed of archery spike/antler less tags issued and hunted in the southern region. So, the DWR by their OWN recommendations have ensured the data gathered will be bogus and of no use. What brilliant scientists we have running things. The DWR made recommendations based on social issues instead of biological issues, why have BIOLOGISTS making social programs? Wouldn't community organizers be better qualified to make social policies? Who is looking at the biology?


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

OK, OK, Some are happy most are not. All the bickering has showed me that, but for the ones that are upset about things, Again, What can we do? Talk is cheap. :!: 
What does UBA have to say? SFW or any of the other groups?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

blazingsaddle said:


> OK, OK, Some are happy most are not. All the bickering has showed me that, but for the ones that are upset about things, Again, What can we do? Talk is cheap. :!:
> What does UBA have to say? SFW or any of the other groups?


UBA is meeting shortly to address what are next step(s) will be. We want to have passion in what we do, but we need to be smart in what we do. Burning the houses of the WB sounded like a good idea yesterday, but I don't think it would solve anything.

I am willing to do whatever it takes to get the process 'fixed'. And yes W2U, it IS broken! Even the DWR employees in the back of the room where snickering at some of the comments/decisions made by the Board. I had 3 of them come up to me and APOLOGIZED for what was taking place.

Anis is a nice guy, but IMO he is a HORRIBLE director. He is dishonest, he tries to appease instead of make biologically based recommendations, he waffles when asked direct questions when he knows the answers are not kind to his recommendations. If Anis is the fall guy for doing the 'dirty' work of his bosses, then that needs to come out in the open. UBA has made every effort to have a working relationship with Anis, he looked me right in the eyes and said he would talk to us BEFORE making recommendations that affect archers. Then he pulls the statewide archery BS on us. When I asked him why he said it was because of 'pressure' from 'SOME' people in the southern region. Whether that is true is irrelevant, he gave his WORD to UBA that he would talk to us BEFORE drafting such a recommendation, and then he did NOT!


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

skeptic said:


> Alright here is my first post.
> 
> *I am the last hunter in my family now (father and brothers lost interest with all the rule changes several years ago) and I am trying to get my grandchildren interested. I have Archery hunted in Southern Utah, Fishlake, Boobe Hole, for the last 25 years ( i live in sandy)
> 
> I do not understand why picking your unit for the first half of the season is that big of deal, I usually spend 2-3 weeks straight on the mountain.* I get that the board did not pay attention to all concerned but is that really that surprising? The board is run politically and everybody has different opinions how it should be run, just look at all these posts, there are a lot of hunters that will be fine with these decisions and we can debate the validity forever. I spent 21 days on the mountain this year camped just off the Piute trail and have seen more people every year both hunters and riders. Overcrowded? no just more people, hike 500 yards off the road and your alone. I personally just don't see how this will change the way anybody really hunts, so here we go please enlighten me. And be nice I just want to know how this honestly will affect you.


Welcome to the foray!

Basically, you answered your own question!

First of all, the season is not split in half. It's an 18 day region season which includes 3 full weekends, and an 11 day statewide season which includes only 1 full weekend, 1 holiday, and 1 Saturday.

2009's archery deer hunt is just a survey/probe to see how many archery deer hunters actually hunt the Southern Region the first two weeks, but in the future, you may not be able draw a Southern archery deer tag, and thus you won't be hunting Boobe Hole until the last 11 days which happens to include the busiest outdoor holiday weekend of the summer, Labor Day. And it will be even busier now that archery hunters can hunt spike and cow elk there. Also, the deer and elk (now including spike and cow elk) will have been hunted for 18 days prior to your hunt there and will be fewer in number and more spooked, thus harder to hunt.

Now, think about it! Would you rather try to interest your grandchildren in a more demanding 29 day archery hunt (18 days outside of the Southern Region (Boobe Hole) and 11 days at Boobe Hole) where the success rate is only 22.4%, or a (now) 9 day rifle hunt where the success rate is 44.5% (2007 Southern Region figures)? And if you choose to hunt with them during the rifle season, you'll either have to eliminate the archery deer season hunt, hunt somewhere else outside of the Southern Region, or take an additional week or so vacation time for the rifle hunt.

The rest of your family left because things got too complicated. Now we have this! DUH!!!

If you can live with that on a year to year basis, then I guess you're correct in having no concerns, but, anyway, that's how it will change your situation!

And you yourself have stated that you don't acknowledge the one and only reason for this change, percieved overcrowding of the Southern Region. So why did they decide to eliminate one of the incentives for recruiting young archery hunters, while they claim to want to increase opportunities for them? To most of us Southern Region archery hunters, it's insulting for them to go against our overwhelming wishes to keep the statewide archery hunt as is!


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

elkfromabove'' Your right on.. I hunt around the Boobie. Rex's Reseivor, all the way accross to State road 72 above Fishlake, And to say the last weekend of the bow hunt is a nut house. is an understatement, In fact the last 3 years, after fighting the hords.. we pack it in, If me and my boys have to wait 17 days.. if we don't draw out...After being down that way for 45 years. I can't tell you, how that makes me feel.. And ya. the smoke they blew up the UBA's pie hole .. I'll say it again.. Keep lookin over your shoulders!! Cause the TURD HEADS will be gaining on you again some day..Man. needs to be some serious changes made,,, and Yes I E-mail the Gov's office again today..


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

wyoming2utah said:


> If you understand how the process is supposed to work, then why the hell are you bitching about it when it did exactly what it was supposed to do? How do you know the WB didn't listen to anybody? Didn't they listen to the RACs? *Didn't their vote coincide with 2 RACs and didn't their vote coincide with most of the RACs on the spike issue?*




Actually, the 2 RAC's (Southern and , I understand, NE) that didn't vote for many of the hot issues, including statewide archery and spike elk, did just that. *They didn't vote!!!* They turned those decisions back to the Wildlife Board with no recommendations. They wimped out!


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Elk, you are correct. 3 RAC's voted to keep statewide archery, two voted to pass the vote back to the board. I do believe ALL RAC's were against the statewide spike, as well as the 9 day rifle hunt. 

WYO your something else, I will save a seat for you at the next board meeting so that you will now finally know the truth.


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > If you understand how the process is supposed to work, then why the hell are you bitching about it when it did exactly what it was supposed to do? How do you know the WB didn't listen to anybody? Didn't they listen to the RACs? *Didn't their vote coincide with 2 RACs and didn't their vote coincide with most of the RACs on the spike issue?*
> ...


EFA is right.

W2U you seem like a pretty smart guy so I am surprised by some of your posts in this thread. The WB job is to do what's best for the people and wildlife, period. If you were on the WB looking at 'social issues' regarding the statewide archery hunt, wouldn't you want input from the people this supposedly has an effect on? 
I would and that's what they got. Hundreds of archers from different regions and bowhunting orginizations showed up at RAC's to say, "We don't have a problem, we are happy the way it is!" I was at 3 RAC's and only heard one Archer stand to say there was a problem with over-crowding.

If the vast majority of Archers--who overcrowding is supposedly effecting-- don't have a problem and there is no biological reason to change then why would you, as a WB, change the rules? Who does this solve a problem for? It's like changing babies diaper that hasn't been pooped/peed in? Change for the sake of change.

Seriously W2U, who does this change benefit and how? If it's another orginization such as cattlmen, FS, etc....that the WB represents why didn't we hear from or about in any of the meetings.

There is not a good reason for the change and that is why people are upset. In fact, there many good reasons not to change but those were ignored.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Well stated Mountain Time! + 1,000,000


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

I know we're all more than upset about the way the Board voted on several issues, but please don't overreact to these proposals by changing the regions you normally hunt, at least not to protest or "show 'em". If we boycott or flood the Southern Region with archery deer hunters, we'll throw in false data that will be used against us. If we boycott, that fact will be noticeable and those few that are complaining will cry "foul". If we flood the place, then they'll say "we told you so". I'm very confident the true data will bear out the fact that we're not crowded. (at least until the Labor Day weekend!) If you normally archery hunt deer in the Southern or you were planning on it as a hunt and not a protest, then "Come On Down"! We're happy to have you. But don't change because you're ****ed!

And on the bull/spike/cow elk archery hunt, a large influx of archery hunters in the LE units will mess up the LE elk hunters who have waited a long time for the tag. It will also mess up the archery deer hunters 'cause the complainers will still complain about overcrowding 'cause they won't know the difference. And if you hunt an LE unit, please give priority to the LE hunters while hunting a herd, it's their once in a lifetime hunt. You'll get another chance tomorrow or next year.

Protest by flooding the Wildlife Board and the Governor with e-mails and letters. I sent my first off today!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> You have no idea what kind of input the Board received from telephone conversations, email, letters, personal conversations etc...


Actually, I do. And I know where the initial "input" came from that rendered any and all further input moot even before the mule deer committee convened.

What some folks don't seem to savvy here is that the issue is not any particular decision of the Board. The issue is the actual procedure that was used to arrive at those decisions, its ramifications and its possible consequences for Utah wildlife.

Public input is a requirement for qualification for Pittman-Robertson funds and that's a matter of federal law. In addition, democratic process is a key policy of the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies of which Jim Karpowitz is a member as director of the UDWR and chair of the Utah Wildlife Board.

To make only the appearance of public input by taking advantage of loopholes in the law falls short of fraud, but it also falls short of the clearly understood intent of the law. This is the point that needs to be made to Governor Huntsman.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Finn,

That being the case do we get lawyer's involved and our conservation group's. There was one gentleman who sat on the board, I heard he had sat in on the deer commitee. He was the only one who reacted and voted off of biology and what the majority of input was. If it wasn't for him we wouldn't even have gotten a commitee approved. Do we get him involved as well?


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

The directors of thse different agencies (DNR, DWR) all answer ultimately to the governors office. You can spent all your time, money, and effort on the lower level of management and it may get you some small head way. But if you focus all your effort at the one who is ultimately in control, it will happen faster and will be less likely to be changed down the road. You are still writing letters to the ones who have already snubbed you. You are stepping on the foot when you should be kicking them in the balls.


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## FULLHOUSE (Oct 1, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> The directors of thse different agencies (DNR, DWR) all answer ultimately to the governors office. You can spent all your time, money, and effort on the lower level of management and it may get you some small head way. But if you focus all your effort at the one who is ultimately in control, it will happen faster and will be less likely to be changed down the road. You are still writing letters to the ones who have already snubbed you. You are stepping on the foot when you should be kicking them in the balls.


Amen Hunt +100000


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

utfireman said:


> That being the case do we get lawyer's involved and our conservation group's. There was one gentleman who sat on the board, I heard he had sat in on the deer commitee. He was the only one who reacted and voted off of biology and what the majority of input was. If it wasn't for him we wouldn't even have gotten a commitee approved. Do we get him involved as well?


I don't know... I tend to think that if Huntsman won't pay some attention to the situation, then a class action suit is necessary to force his hand. But you touched on the problem because I know exactly who you're talking about - a great man and one of the most respected and dedicated conservationists in the state. I would hate to do anything that would obstruct his continued work. So if we don't request a recall of the entire Board, then what, exactly, would we recommend that Huntsman do?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Maybe you guys could have some petitions ready to be signed at the upcoming expos in a couple of months.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Good point, Coby.


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## suave300 (Sep 11, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Maybe you guys could have some petitions ready to be signed at the upcoming expos in a couple of months.


Great Idea! Great Idea!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Mountain Time said:


> EFA is right.
> 
> W2U you seem like a pretty smart guy so I am surprised by some of your posts in this thread. The WB job is to do what's best for the people and wildlife, period. If you were on the WB looking at 'social issues' regarding the statewide archery hunt, wouldn't you want input from the people this supposedly has an effect on?
> I would and that's what they got. Hundreds of archers from different regions and bowhunting orginizations showed up at RAC's to say, "We don't have a problem, we are happy the way it is!" I was at 3 RAC's and only heard one Archer stand to say there was a problem with over-crowding.
> ...


Actually, according to the RAC meeting minutes, both the NE and Southern regions voted to pass the recommendations--4 to 3 in the North and 6 to 2 in the south.

The WB, in my opinion, did do what is right for the people and the wildlife. The recommendation change on the archery--which i did oppose--will end up telling the DWR and the Board exactly how many people are hunting the southern region. You and others keep mentioning the people who, as Pro would put it, SHOWED up. But, you continually fail to recognize the people who voiced their concerns via email or phone/personal conversations. Also, you have totally failed to recognize the people who voiced their opinions in past RAC meetings on this issue. Should the RACs have totally disregarded their concerns in the past? Concerns that were voiced by archers? Also, doesn't this change affect more than just archers? Wouldn't a cap on the number of archers hunting the southern region also affect buck/doe ratios and wouldn't/coudn't this change also improve rifle and muzzleloader hunters?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Also, doesn't this change affect more than just archers? Wouldn't a cap on the number of archers hunting the southern region also affect buck/doe ratios and wouldn't/coudn't this change also improve rifle and muzzleloader hunters?


In 2007 archers killed 346 bucks in the southern region according to DWR numbers. Archers enjoyed 13.6% success rates that year. Anis said if they were to put a cap on the number of archers in the southern region it would decrease the number of archers by less than 500 archers. That comes out to a whopping 68 additional bucks throughout the entire southern region. Also, there were *DOUBLE* the number of rifle hunters in the southern region and the killed *QUADRUPLED* the number of bucks killed, yet you are trying to say putting a cap on archers is 'needed'/warranted. Also, if you decrease the number of archers success rates are likely to go up where you decrease hunters as hunter pressure has a major role in SR for archers unlike with rifle hunters. The archers 'FORCED' out of the southern region, where are the going to go? What region is best suited to have additional pressure during archery season? :?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> In 2007 archers killed 346 bucks in the southern region according to DWR numbers. Archers enjoyed 13.6% success rates that year. Anis said if they were to put a cap on the number of archers in the southern region it would decrease the number of archers by less than 500 archers. That comes out to a whopping 68 additional bucks throughout the entire southern region. Also, there were *DOUBLE* the number of rifle hunters in the southern region and the killed *QUADRUPLED* the number of bucks killed, yet you are trying to say putting a cap on archers is 'needed'/warranted. Also, if you decrease the number of archers success rates are likely to go up where you decrease hunters as hunter pressure has a major role in SR for archers unlike with rifle hunters. The archers 'FORCED' out of the southern region, where are the going to go? What region is best suited to have additional pressure during archery season? :?


Hold on there, big fella....I have NEVER said that capping archery hunters is warranted or needed. In fact, I think the notion that the southern utah is "overcrowded" is ridiculous. However, I do believe that this false notion has been voiced by numerous hunters over a course of several years...many of whom are archers. I believe that the decision by the WB is not so bad, though, because they will find out exactly where hunters are hunting and then it can be decided what constitutes overcrowding.

Also, I think your numbers are way off...where are you getting them from? I counted the total number of bucks killed by archers for the southern region as being 1,207... By way of comparison, the central region harvested 336, the northeastern 528, and the northern was 265. I counted the number of bucks killed in the south by archers as being 1248 in 2006...


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## otis332 (Dec 8, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> Maybe you guys could have some petitions ready to be signed at the upcoming expos in a couple of months.


 This is the best quote I've read.

We all sit and read these boards and throw our $.02 in but I dont think there is one person out there, in any committee that reads these and looks out for the hunters. As hunters we should ban together on this and any other hunt issue that is out there. I personally think that the big game board members and or rac members should be voted in and not appointed.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Hold on there, big fella....I have NEVER said that capping archery hunters is warranted or needed. In fact, I think the notion that the southern utah is "overcrowded" is ridiculous. However, I do believe that this false notion has been voiced by numerous hunters over a course of several years...many of whom are archers. I believe that the decision by the WB is not so bad, though, because they will find out exactly where hunters are hunting and then it can be decided what constitutes overcrowding. I'm not overly concerned about what you said. I AM concerned about what Anis and the Wildlife Board have said about placing caps to the different regions. Also, the little survey the DWR did/presented showed archers are the most satisfied of ALL hunters, including LE/Premium LE hunters for 'quality' and OVERCROWDING. :shock:
> 
> Also, I think your numbers are way off...where are you getting them from? I counted the total number of bucks killed by archers for the southern region as being 1,207... By way of comparison, the central region harvested 336, the northeastern 528, and the northern was 265. I counted the number of bucks killed in the south by archers as being 1248 in 2006...I stand corrected. I was off a few lines, my bad.  That means an additional 112 bucks surviving from a 500 tag reduction in the southern region of success rates were to stay the same. That comes out to what 8 more bucks on the Beaver unit? ****, we should put the cap in place ASAP.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

wyoming2utah said:


> Actually, according to the RAC meeting minutes, both the NE and Southern regions voted to pass the recommendations--4 to 3 in the North and 6 to 2 in the south.


I can't vouch either way for the NE RAC 'cause I missed that one, and I don't know what ended up on the minutes of the Southern RAC, but I do know what went on onstage at Beaver High. *They turned that vote over to the Wildlife Board.* In fact one RAC Board member complained that we, the public, were putting too much pressure on the RAC to make decisions. (I thought that's why they were there!).



> The WB, in my opinion, did do what is right for the people and the wildlife. The recommendation change on the archery--which i did oppose--will end up telling the DWR and the Board exactly how many people are hunting the southern region.


But it will not tell them specifically where in that approximately *15,200 square miles of general public accessible deer habitat in the Southern Region* the perceived overcrowding is taking place! Nor will limiting the archery deer tags necessarily cure the problem! In fact, it may increase the problem, especially since we, and others, now will be able to archery hunt elk in our, and your, favorite Southern Region deer hideyhole. This so-called accurate approach will tell them nothing about the overcrowding, especially if the perceived overcrowding is actually caused by other outdoor enthusiasts.



> You and others keep mentioning the people who, as Pro would put it, SHOWED up. But, you continually fail to recognize the people who voiced their concerns via email or phone/personal conversations. Also, you have totally failed to recognize the people who voiced their opinions in past RAC meetings on this issue. Should the RACs have totally disregarded their concerns in the past? Concerns that were voiced by archers?


Valid point, but why didn't this come up during the meetings, especially from the RAC's? You'd think that the RAC's and the WB would use this to solidify their position. They didn't!



> *Also, doesn't this change affect more than just archers?* Wouldn't a cap on the number of archers hunting the southern region also affect buck/doe ratios and wouldn't/coudn't this change also improve rifle and muzzleloader hunters?


You bet it affects more than the archers, but in all likelyhood, not for the better. Some of the current archers will switch to rifle adding to the competition, and this only diminishes the incentives for youth to archery hunt the Southern which only has a 22.4% success rate for a 28 day archery hunt versus a 44.4% success rate for a 5 day Southern rifle hunt (2007 figures). The muzzy hunters I don't know about, but I can't see how this will help them because the BIG hunting crowds will show up on the Labor Day weekend which is closer to the muzzy hunt.

You can spin this scenerio all you want, but the truth is, nobody is helped by this move, especially in the long run, not even the herds!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

otis332 said:


> We all sit and read these boards and throw our $.02 in but I dont think there is one person out there, in any committee that reads these and looks out for the hunters.


You'd be wrong about that. This forum is fortunate to have among its number members of the deer committee, shed committee, elk committee, ATV committee, committee committee and the committee to end all committees, not to mention the book of the month club and sergeant pepper's lonely hearts club band...armchair biologists all. Well, except for me because nobody told me they were passing out armchairs and I'm pretty ticked about that, too.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

What does an armchair look like? I have chairs with arms, but I'm not sure I have an armchair. I do have a couple of fine-crafted chairs made by an esteemed *member* of this forum, but he didn't call them arm chairs. :?


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