# Hunting Dog



## themockingjaye (Sep 15, 2019)

Good Evening Folks!

This year I'm getting into waterfowl and rabbit hunting and would like to adopt a dog. I'm not too sure which breed best suits my needs, so I've listed them below in hope that you can perhaps offer suggestions on what may make a good companion. 

Criteria:
- Low to Medium Shedding
- Good watchdog
- Friendly to other small animals (I have a cat, but no kids).
- Not too odorous (best neutered/spayed, although some breeds are smellier than others).
- Not super-hyper energy all the time (probably just depends on whether one adopts a pup or adult dog - but my understanding is that there are also some hyperactive dogs than others). 
- I do go out running a few days a week so need a dog that can keep up
- Up to 40lbs (HOA limit dog size).
- Adoption preferred but would like to train the dog properly especially for hunting purposes and also personal protection (so maybe adoption isn't best?). 

Really appreciate any feedback - thanks. 

Oh, also, I'm going fishing this spring/summer and so one that likes to roam around in water would be good - I don't know too much on dogs to know if there are certain breeds that don't like the water. Probably not, but just trying to cover all bases. 

Thanks

Jenna


----------



## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Getting my popcorn ready...


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

"Don't say get a pit bull, don't say get a pit bull, don't say get a pit bull"...yeah, ummm I think you should get a, ummm, _versatile breed_

That was close! :grin:


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

After life gets back to normal, I think you should look into various dog groups and put your hands on a bunch of different dogs.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

A "hunting dog" that's 40lb or smaller, doesn't shed that much?? That's a tuff one. I guess if you could train a beagle to hunt waterfowl that would work. 


With your criteria I would say a Lab is your best bet for a running companion and hunter. You'll be sweeping, vacuuming though, they do shed and average 60lbs.


----------



## Wire (Nov 2, 2017)

Boykin


----------



## gander311 (Dec 23, 2008)

I would've said lab other than the size and shedding criteria. 
Taking that into consideration, you could consider a springer spaniel. Not ideal for really cold weather duck hunts, but with a neoprene vest would probably be okay through lots of the waterfowl season. 

For what it's worth, this may not be a popular sentiment, but don't "adopt" an adult dog. Chances are you're just picking up somebody else's problems. My father was a professional dog trainer most of my life and he made a nice living off of "adopted" dogs. Find a puppy from a reputable breeder who has done the proper health checks for the breed on the parents.


----------



## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

That is an easy question to answer,

And the winner is an " English Springer Spaniel "We have had Springer's for over 45 years. You will not go wrong with this choice,

Springer's are everthing you are looking for and a lot more,


----------



## caddis8 (Sep 10, 2007)

themockingjaye said:


> - Not super-hyper energy all the time (probably just depends on whether one adopts a pup or adult dog - but my understanding is that there are also some hyperactive dogs than others).
> - I do go out running a few days a week so need a dog that can keep up
> - Up to 40lbs (HOA limit dog size).
> - Adoption preferred but would like to train the dog properly especially for hunting purposes and also personal protection (so maybe adoption isn't best?).


A puppy will have high energy for a while. No two ways around it. I've got a lab that is two and he's still pretty hyper at times. He's a great dog, but still has a lot of energy still.

And the HOA size is just one of the 15,000 reasons I won't ever have an HOA.

You may be able to find a small pudelpointer, but that would be difficult on the adoption side.

We've adopted a couple of dogs in our lifetime. One was an absolute moron. I got one for my brother and he sold it for more than he paid for it...what a punk.

I adopted a lab that ended up being a pointing lab, and she was a good dog 95% of the time. However, with thunderstorms and fireworks she was mental. Like certifiable insanse. You never know what you're going to get when you adopt and you find out what baggage they have.

Potential breeds:

Springer Spaniel- But they have energy. Long hair. 
Boykin Spaniel- Could be a good fit, not easy to find.
Curly Coated Retriever- May be a bit large.
Smaller Pudelpointer- Probably the best fit for what you've described

Other breeds-
Australian Shephed, energy and shedding could be an issue there.
Medium sized poodle- Originally bred for hunting in France.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

caddis8 said:


> Smaller Pudelpointer- Probably the best fit for what you've described


I have a very small pudelpointer female and she's still 42-45 pounds. I have never seen or heard of one under 40. 40-60 is the breed range.

And to whoever said beagle earlier... Having had one, it shed more than my lab did, to say nothing of her voice. Not really an HOA friendly breed


----------



## caddis8 (Sep 10, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> I have a very small pudelpointer female and she's still 42-45 pounds. I have never seen it heard of one under 40. 40-60 is the breed range.
> 
> And to whoever said beagle earlier... Having had one, it shed more than my lab did, to say nothing of her voice. Not really an HOA friendly breed


I would hope the HOA doesn't walk around with dog scales. But you never know about them.

Had a hard time finding land in Swan Valley without crazy HOA rules. So we bought the whole subdivision. We are the HOA.


----------



## themockingjaye (Sep 15, 2019)

caddis8 said:


> A puppy will have high energy for a while. No two ways around it. I've got a lab that is two and he's still pretty hyper at times. He's a great dog, but still has a lot of energy still.
> 
> And the HOA size is just one of the 15,000 reasons I won't ever have an HOA.
> 
> ...


I think a pudelpointer sounds like a good fit. I've been reading about this breed and they have a calm temperament which would be good for living in a condo. They're not gun-shy, not very odorous, another big plus! and, they have a mid-range need for exercise, just like me. They do shed a fair amount although, but somethings got to give.


----------



## Wire (Nov 2, 2017)

themockingjaye said:


> caddis8 said:
> 
> 
> > A puppy will have high energy for a while. No two ways around it. I've got a lab that is two and he's still pretty hyper at times. He's a great dog, but still has a lot of energy still.
> ...


Any dog can be gun-shy, doesn't matter how good the breeding is.


----------



## caddis8 (Sep 10, 2007)

themockingjaye said:


> They do shed a fair amount although, but somethings got to give.


Every dog will shed. Johnnycake can talk more about shedding. We all shed. We're all losing hair.

It can be hypo allergenic, but I don't think there's land critter alive that doesn't shed.


----------



## 7summits (Nov 28, 2017)

A Britney Spaniel might do as well. Great dogs.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Mockingjaye, as for the shedding in PPs, about 50% can be considered "non-shedding" in that the growth phase of their coats are about 1 year (look into to tellate and anagen phases of hair growth for more on that), 25% are light shedding, and 25% shed just as much as any lab.

While the PP has a great off switch--that is relative to other versatile and pointing breeds. They are still a much higher energy dog than say a lab, golden, or many of the house dog types. I'm not saying it can't be done, but from my experience and research, PPs usually do best in family homes where they have lots of regular contact throughout the day. They do not handle sitting in the kennel all day waiting for you to get home from work. I would also never trust my PP to be free in the house as she (and many other PPs I know) will eat ANYTHING, especially when bored or stressed. 

Plus, based on their build, which is more of a tall and slender than other hunting breeds, a 45lbs PP looks about the same size/height as a 60-75lbs lab. 

Good PP breeders tend to be very picky about who they sell pups too, and frankly, with you being new to hunting that might be a very hard obstacle for you to overcome.


----------



## themockingjaye (Sep 15, 2019)

johnnycake said:


> Mockingjaye, as for the shedding in PPs, about 50% can be considered "non-shedding" in that the growth phase of their coats are about 1 year (look into to tellate and anagen phases of hair growth for more on that), 25% are light shedding, and 25% shed just as much as any lab.
> 
> While the PP has a great off switch--that is relative to other versatile and pointing breeds. They are still a much higher energy dog than say a lab, golden, or many of the house dog types. I'm not saying it can't be done, but from my experience and research, PPs usually do best in family homes where they have lots of regular contact throughout the day. They do not handle sitting in the kennel all day waiting for you to get home from work. I would also never trust my PP to be free in the house as she (and many other PPs I know) will eat ANYTHING, especially when bored or stressed.
> 
> ...


Ok I see. Maybe I should rethink that then. I do work from home half the week and when I go into the office, you're allowed to bring your dog. But there would be some days where I'd leave the dog at home and definitely wouldn't like to come back to a torn up sofa.

Do you think a spaniel variation might be better? American Water Spaniel?


----------



## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

What about a ****er? Don’t know about their shedding but they’re like a hundred pound dog condensed down.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

themockingjaye said:


> Ok I see. Maybe I should rethink that then. I do work from home half the week and when I go into the office, you're allowed to bring your dog. But there would be some days where I'd leave the dog at home and definitely wouldn't like to come back to a torn up sofa.
> 
> Do you think a spaniel variation might be better? American Water Spaniel?


I really think the only way for someone, especially someone new to hunting, to really find a hunting dog breed that works for them is to meet a bunch in person and spend time with various breeds.

IMO, well bred hunting labs are like a Toyota Camry--straightforward, dependable, and relative simple to maximize your use of it, even if you are a beginning driver. But getting into the versatile and pointing breeds is more like looking at high-end performance vehicles--you shouldn't just hand a 16 year old kid the keys to a Porshe or swamp buggy and tell them to figure out this driving thing. They might be able to get it to work well enough, but without a lot of help and work it is unlikely that they will really figure out how to maximize the benefits of why you would have that vehicle in the first place. A lot of dogs with excellent potential are "wasted" and unfulfilled by people who aren't ready to give to the dog the training and attention it deserves.

Could a PP work for you? Maybe. Could a spaniel breed be the right fit? Maybe. It really depends on you and what amount of time you are wanting, able, and willing to put into the dog.

If I were in your shoes, I would first absolutely make sure that I know what I am getting the dog for. Is it primarily for a general companion on my adventures? Is it to fulfill a specific purpose in hunting that I know I need/want to expand? Yes, I see in your post that you are wanting to get into waterfowl and rabbit hunting...but I would personally give both of them a try for a season or two before adding a dog into it. There is a lot to learn about the hunting side of that first, before you can then realistically expect to teach the dog to do what you want/need it to do.


----------



## themockingjaye (Sep 15, 2019)

I see. there's a lot more to this than I thought. I wanted a dog for hunting, more as a companion I guess and to take on outdoor adventures too. 

Isn't the purpose of a hunting dog just to go and find and bring birds and rabbits you shoot? And help you find where they are in the first place? Do they have other special skills?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

On the dog and rabbits, don't bother. At the ranges that most cotton tails are shot here in the west there is no need for a dog to retrieve them. Dogs usually just get them to running where you don't have a chance to shoot them.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Mini goldendoodle


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

themockingjaye said:


> I see. there's a lot more to this than I thought. I wanted a dog for hunting, more as a companion I guess and to take on outdoor adventures too.
> 
> Isn't the purpose of a hunting dog *just to go and find and bring birds and rabbits you shoot*? And* help you find where they are in the first place*? Do they have other special skills?


There is a LOT to unpack in both of those statements. Yes those are the desired outcomes generally, but there is a ton of groundwork that has to be established before you can expect those outcomes. Obedience training, communication and cooperation between dog/handler, learning to read your dog, learning how to teach your dog, teaching your dog to focus, learning to read terrain for where to even unleash the dog in the first place, how to work a field/patch of trees/slope/etc, wind and humidity conditions, training and conditioning the dog, helping the dog understand how to use its nose, and much more.

Just adding a dog, even from an excellent breeding/lineage, will not by itself increase the amount of game you encounter--and that is a common misconception I see with a lot of the people I train with when they first start out. I had that misconception too with my first hunting dog nearly 20 years ago. Yes, the right breed and lineage will greatly help you accomplish the desired outcomes--but only if you put in the work. But really, the work is a lot of fun, and if you can find people to mentor and help you, it is manageable.


----------



## themockingjaye (Sep 15, 2019)

I see. It might just be a lot easier for me to just walk over and pick up anything that gets shot. Realistically I don't have that kind of time to invest. Thanks for responding, really appreciate it, and taking the time to explain in full before I make a decision I'd probably regret.


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

themockingjaye said:


> I see. It might just be a lot easier for me to just walk over and pick up anything that gets shot. Realistically I don't have that kind of time to invest. Thanks for responding, really appreciate it, and taking the time to explain in full before I make a decision I'd probably regret.


This is a good and level headed attitude--good on ya!

The truth of the matter is that in Utah for the average public land hunter there are two categories of birds to regularly hunt with a dog (shut up pheasant guys, the preserve don't count):

1. Waterfowl
2. Chukars & Grouse

You don't need a retrieving dog to hunt Waterfowl although they come in handy but there are a lot of very successful waterfowl hunters with no dogs.

That leaves Chukars and Grouse and honestly you can hunt both without a dog although you would probably fare much better on grouse than chukar. I don't know of any chukar hunter who kills more than a handful without a dog. IMO a dog is a necessity for a serious chukar hunter.

A bird dog is a whole other thing in an of itself and is basically a lifestyle. Don't take it lightly--not fair to you or the dog. I own 4 good chukar dogs and they take hundreds of hours of my time each year, probably thousands. I hunt or train well over 50 days a year and enjoy the lifestyle. It's definitely a passion.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I agree that if you want to get serious with chuckars you are going to need a dog. I have killed my fair share of them without a dog but I would also wager that I have put 3-4 times the miles on my boot leather than those with dogs do to get those birds. 

Grouse is also a bird where a dog is handy, but I have also shot my fair share of them by just knowing where to look.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

100% agree Airborne. I only have 1 hunting dog (and a catsquirrel fluffball my wife claims is actually a dog), and I easily do an average of 1 hr of training over the course of each day fall/winter/spring and closer to 3 hours each day in the summer (gotta love our midnight sunshine up here). That is on top of +30 hunting days each fall/winter and multiple training weekends throughout the year. Looking forward to some social distancing ptarmigan, grouse and hare hunting with her this weekend before the ptarmigan and grouse seasons close at the end of the month.

It is time consuming (and expensive) but holy balls is it fun!


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> It is time consuming (and expensive) but holy balls is it fun!


Holy Balls indeed my internet compatriot...Holy Balls Indeed! :grin:


----------



## Baron83 (May 24, 2016)

Get a griffon I love mine.


----------



## themockingjaye (Sep 15, 2019)

Airborne said:


> Holy Balls indeed my internet compatriot...Holy Balls Indeed! :grin:


Wow those are beautiful dogs.

With the world shutting down it does feel like a good opportunity at the moment to train a dog, and also there's more an excuse right now to get outdoors. I kind of want a dog anyway to keep me company at home. So may just consider still a good breed for hunting should I one day get into grouse/chukar hunting.

Thanks for all your feedback!


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Springer Spaniel 
Great all around dogs for upland and waterfowl.


----------



## T-dubs-42 (Sep 8, 2015)

I have a springer spaniel-nova scotia duck toller mix. From year 2 to now year 8 she has been phenomenal. Fantastic companion, easy to train and a blast to hunt with. A few of my friends have springers as well and they are all pretty great. A female springer can easily be under 40 lbs and they don't shed too bad. I would definitely look at the spaniel family.


----------



## themockingjaye (Sep 15, 2019)

Hey duck hunters!

I have gotten myself a beautiful lil' 6 year old Brittany. She's so beautiful, we're in love. 

I think she was used as a breeding dog, unfortunately. As the vet said she shouldn't have any more pups due to her hips showing signs of fatigue, so I'm planning to get her spayed ASAP. However she's in heat right now and I'm not so sure if I should wait until this phase is over before getting her 'fixed'?

We've been on many hikes this last week, oh and she was definitely bred for hunting. As soon as she sees a bird or duck, she's pointing and then chases it. In the field I can see how that's going to be to my advantage, as she flushes birds. 

We're working on retrieving, and other commands like sit, stay, down, eye contact etc.

I've been watching some pre-training videos on YouTube to get her to pick up some new habits like walking on my left side. 

Does anyone here have any top tips I should be aware of to fast track her training? 

Would love some help, even though there are resources online, I personally find it a lot more beneficial when speaking to people interactively to gain knowledge and discuss matters, who are in the same community.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Brittanys are wonderful dogs. Do you have any history of dog (pedigree, registration, where it came from, etc.)? Training with an older dog can be challenging as you will likely have to overcome "bad habits" that were learned or developed by the dog before you got her. 

I would imagine you would have difficulty getting her in to a vet right now given the COVID-19 issue. I'd recommend just putting a diaper on her when she's in the house to manage cleanup better. There are some excellent dog diapers that you can put a feminine hygiene pad on and change out as needed, or you can take a kid's diaper and cut a hole for her tail and trim it up a bit around her legs (likely a size 6 for a Brittany, unless you have a French Brittany).

Work on obedience. And then when you have obedience down, work on it some more. 

Seriously. 99% of bird dog training is obedience. 

To me the #1 rule is to have fun. Training should be something the dog (and you) look forward to. Positive reinforcement training is excellent, and hot dogs cut up in small pieces are a cheap and very effective reward for the dog--but some dogs (mine included) are completely brainless in the presence of food, so you may need to use some other positive marker (praise alone works for some dogs). 

The 1st thing to work is recall (here, heel, come, etc). Then work on a stopping command most people I train with use "Whoa," which should have the dog stop immediately and have all 4 feet glued to the ground.

I personally am of the opinion that "stay" is a completely useless "command" to use. When I give my dog a command like "sit" that means they keep sitting until I tell them otherwise (or down, whoa, heel, etc).

If you are on facebook look up and join NAVHDA groups (and not necessarily just your local NAVHDA chapter either), pointing dog groups, and Brittany groups. Tons of excellent information out there. There are several top-knotch kennels doing facebook live trainings and posting videos during the quarantine right now.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Our vet has stopped all elective surgeries for the time being. Spay and neuter (non-emergency) are considered elective, so tushycake is probably right on that one. 

I also agree that "stay" should not be needed at all with an obedient dog. Obedience is key. If your dog has natural bird instincts, and will listen to your commands no matter what is going on around it 100% of the time, you will have a fine bird dog. Most of the really good upland dogs I have seen do it mostly out of instinct anyway. They just have to be willing to listen to you no matter what. That is NOT the easy part.


----------



## themockingjaye (Sep 15, 2019)

johnnycake said:


> Brittanys are wonderful dogs. Do you have any history of dog (pedigree, registration, where it came from, etc.)? Training with an older dog can be challenging as you will likely have to overcome "bad habits" that were learned or developed by the dog before you got her.
> 
> I would imagine you would have difficulty getting her in to a vet right now given the COVID-19 issue. I'd recommend just putting a diaper on her when she's in the house to manage cleanup better. There are some excellent dog diapers that you can put a feminine hygiene pad on and change out as needed, or you can take a kid's diaper and cut a hole for her tail and trim it up a bit around her legs (likely a size 6 for a Brittany, unless you have a French Brittany).
> 
> ...


She's a 100% Brittany, though not sure if American or French. She weighs about 33pounds, if that helps. I'll upload a picture of her in a bit.

She was originally from a breeder in Colorado I believe and then became one of this man's several Brittany's on a ranch in Utah. The man's daughter kept her mostly, but since she became a teenager there's little interest in her anymore. I didn't want to ask too many provoking questions, but based on the kennels and number of dogs who looked like her, and size of her nipples, I guessed she'd been used for breeding.

Got her diaper game taken care of, i accidentally got a bit mad at her last night when i saw a huge wet patch by the front door which didn't smell like wee. Besides the accident due to her being in heat, she's such a good dog in the house, calm mostly, and when I let her out she'll run outside do her business and then run straight back.

Ok, obedience training it is. Sounds like the key to that is treats and repetition? I think she feels more rewarded with food rather than praise.

I don't have Facebook, avidly anti-social media. But thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

You do realize that UWN IS social media....


----------



## themockingjaye (Sep 15, 2019)

shaner said:


> You do realize that UWN IS social media....


..I'd argue it's a forum, my fellow hunting friend


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Forums are basically one of the facets of social media, and social media is what you choose to make of it IMO. But really, it is harder to find a better resource for a new dog trainer online (maybe even in person) than what you can find on Facebook.

Repetition is important, but it is worthless without consistency. Use the same command (verbal, physical, etc) every single time you want the dog to do something. A dog needs to be able to perform the command when given the first time, every time you give it, in at least 3 different locations before they "know" that command.


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

My new pup has grown a little too long in the inseam and needs some alterations, so I made an appointment yesterday. He's going in to get his suit worked on on the 29th. You might have to call around for a vet but you should be able to find one. Maybe call animal shelters and ask who they use.


----------



## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

Johnnycake gives great advice on all matters, including his insights on dog training. Use Youtube if you don't like Facebook. Check out a couple videos before adopting a certain method to figure out what will work best for you and your dog. 

Have fun!


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Pomeranian. Best waterfowl dog there is.

https://utahwildlife.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=141225&stc=1&d=1587150502


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

MooseMeat said:


> Pomeranian. Best waterfowl dog there is.
> 
> https://utahwildlife.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=141225&stc=1&d=1587150502


----------



## Ratob (Dec 14, 2020)

Banned Spammer


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

7summits said:


> A Britney Spaniel might do as well. Great dogs.


My Brittany was a great dog for 14 years. My current dog is a GSP and she's also wonderful. Neither are really waterfowl dogs, though. Maybe a Drahthaar? I've heard good things about them.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> Pomeranian. Best waterfowl dog there is.
> 
> https://utahwildlife.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=141225&stc=1&d=1587150502


What kind of ducks are those?


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Those are coot, the worst tasting bird you can shoot. Shame really, because they're nest-killing jerks and overpopulated.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Jedidiah said:


> Those are coot, the worst tasting bird you can shoot. Shame really, because they're nest-killing jerks and overpopulated.


That was a joke.;-)


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

paddler said:


> That was a joke.;-)


I wasn't sure, I'd have guessed it was with anyone else but I know who you vote for.


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

paddler said:


> 7summits said:
> 
> 
> > A Britney Spaniel might do as well. Great dogs.
> ...


Love Brittanys. Mine would fetch ducks


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Jedidiah said:


> I wasn't sure, I'd have guessed it was with anyone else but I know who you vote for.


Good one. Now, check the demographics of voters, education levels, etc. Oh, and watch the new Borat movie. Amazing.


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

"It's just like that one movie!" Mmmhmm, ok champ...next you'll be telling me how valid NPR is for choosing Cardi B's "WAP" for song of the year. I'm sorry I got your jimmies rustled, your joke was very funny, brave, stunning, valid or whatever.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Here you go. 1:57:


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

No thanks, I'm actually 100% not going to click it and will never know what it is. You guys and your always thinking everyone has to respect your opinion.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Jedidiah said:


> No thanks, I'm actually 100% not going to click it and will never know what it is. You guys and your always thinking everyone has to respect your opinion.


Ignorance is bliss, eh? You might also enjoy "Selma", especially today, the 56th anniversary of "Bloody Sunday".


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

(Guy thinks I was calling him stupid or being racist when I was really calling attention to his obvious mental illness.)


----------

