# So it's been a while...



## berrysblaster

Did you guys know there are only gay Bulls left on the Wasatch??

JK it's been more than like 5 minutes since we had a Wasatch thread and I was having withdrawals


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## johnnycake

Lol, I will say I've seen very few elk this spring. Last year I was regularly surrounded by herds of 10-100 animals in this area and this year in 5 mornings of turkey hunting, not a one. Must be gone.


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## utahgolf

I've gone duck hunting before and not seen a duck...... But other times I have gone I have seen hundreds. That's just science right there. :grin:


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## berrysblaster

utahgolf said:


> I've gone duck hunting before and not seen a duck...... But other times I have gone I have seen hundreds. That's just science right there. :grin:


Did the ducks have an overbite? Or underbite? Were the testicles fully descended, partial or missing? Did you document the selenium levels in the surrounding sewer ponds?

This is science in case you didn't know.


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## utahgolf

berrysblaster said:


> Did the ducks have an overbite? Or underbite? Were the testicles fully descended, partial or missing? Did you document the selenium levels in the surrounding sewer ponds?
> 
> This is science in case you didn't know.


If you don't see them in the same spot each time than they are all gone. That's the only science or proof I need to provide.


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## martymcfly73

I saw a heard of elk last week that had under bites, one bull had his right ear pierced (the gay ear).and they were licking selenium of the double yellow on highway 40 by chicken creek. I've been telling you guys for years this was going to happen. Looks like I was right. Idiots! And there wasn't a cow anywhere near them. They've all been slaughtered. Oh the humanity.


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## goofy elk

I've spent 15 days so far this month ( April ) on the Wasatch chasing bears...

High, low, everywere, hiked out a bunch of canyons...

I've seen several bulls, every thing from one good one growing to a spike still pack'in.
Mostly Raghorns balled up with 1st and 2nd points started back. About a dozen.

The Waters, Diamond fork,Tie fork, Billies, Teat mountain area---ONE COW spotted in April, No BS.
Same area, same thing 5 years ago, Several hundered cows were seen.

I have found a few more cows toward White river and around Avintiquin side..
Actualy saw 15 together two nights ago, but they were on the Soldier summit CWMU.

But NOTHING, and I meen nothing like past years......So few elk now it's sick.

Taking a day off hunting today, I'll be back at it tomarrow.........

For you fish'in guys, should be able to pull boats over Sheep creek to Stawberry by this weekend.
I can get through now with the jeep, just needs to melt and dry up a little more for a trailer.


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## MuscleWhitefish

#1 One Threat to Elk in the Wasatch


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## Hunterchick

goofy elk said:


> I've spent 15 days so far this month ( April ) on the Wasatch chasing bears...
> 
> High, low, everywere, hiked out a bunch of canyons...
> 
> I've seen several bulls, every thing from one good one growing to a spike still pack'in.
> Mostly Raghorns balled up with 1st and 2nd points started back. About a dozen.
> 
> The Waters, Diamond fork,Tie fork, Billies, Teat mountain area---ONE COW spotted in April, No BS.
> Same area, same thing 5 years ago, Several hundered cows were seen.
> 
> I have found a few more cows toward White river and around Avintiquin side..
> Actualy saw 15 together two nights ago, but they were on the Soldier summit CWMU.
> 
> But NOTHING, and I meen nothing like past years......So few elk now it's sick.
> 
> Taking a day off hunting today, I'll be back at it tomarrow.........
> 
> For you fish'in guys, should be able to pull boats over Sheep creek to Stawberry by this weekend.
> I can get through now with the jeep, just needs to melt and dry up a little more for a trailer.


So the real question.... How many bears did you see?


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## berrysblaster

MuscleWhitefish said:


> #1 One Threat to Elk in the Wasatch


Finally someone who understands science fact

Manbearpig is the reason for all western wildlife decline, especially the sage grouse.


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## LostLouisianian

berrysblaster said:


> Finally someone who understands science fact
> 
> Manbearpig is the reason for all western wildlife decline, especially the sage grouse.


And if you don't believe it then just keep googling it until you find a study that says it's so.


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## DallanC

LostLouisianian said:


> And if you don't believe it then just keep googling it until you find a study that says it's so.














-DallanC


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## willfish4food

berrysblaster said:


> Manbearpig is the reason for all western wildlife decline, especially the sage grouse.


Did you get that from the 4 million dollar Sage grouse study the state paid for? Cause if you did, that's as good as gold and you should take it to the bank.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

Went for a ride on the horses last Saturday and actually saw a decent amount of elk up Hobble Creek. Saw about 50 cows/calfs and 8 bulls. So more than I've seen in a little while.


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## berrysblaster

willfish4food said:


> Did you get that from the 4 million dollar Sage grouse study the state paid for? Cause if you did, that's as good as gold and you should take it to the bank.


No, I got that from the $2 million dollar study, I heard that the next $2 million is going towards understanding how skunk apes are breeding werewolves in the Carlsbad caverns. It's vital research, if the apes are successful then prairie dog populations will see a large increase of natural born transvestite young.


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## Dunkem

berrysblaster said:


> No, I got that from the $2 million dollar study, I heard that the next $2 million is going towards understanding how skunk apes are breeding werewolves in the Carlsbad caverns. It's vital research, if the apes are successful then prairie dog populations will see a large increase of natural born transvestite young.


 Blaster you been licking the roads?:mrgreen:


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## Vanilla

berrysblaster said:


> No, I got that from the $2 million dollar study, I heard that the next $2 million is going towards understanding how skunk apes are breeding werewolves in the Carlsbad caverns. It's vital research, if the apes are successful then prairie dog populations will see a large increase of natural born transvestite young.


Big Game Forever ought to get a piece of that pie as well!


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## berrysblaster

Dunkem said:


> Blaster you been licking the roads?:mrgreen:


Nope, I'm just a concerned sportsman who is aware and educated on the bigger issues facing the gay elk on the Wasatch


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## martymcfly73

I wonder how things will change now that gay marriage is legal?


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## LostLouisianian

Dunkem said:


> Blaster you been licking the roads?:mrgreen:


Yephelikesthatmagnesiumsaltspraythatisleftoverfromtheoilfieldsanditmakeshimthirstyandwanttodrinkwaterbecausehewasn'tthirstyorneedingwaterbeforeandthenhelicksitofftheroadandget'srunover.


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## berrysblaster

berrysblaster said:


> Nope, I'm just a concerned sportsman who is aware and educated on the bigger issues facing the gay elk on the Wasatch


I honestly could barely write this with a straight face. I can only imagine lonetree reading 'bigger issues' and the nuclear explosion that the keyboard will endure afterwords...


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## ridgetop

So what's the deal with this Wasatch unit, that has so many people's attention or interest?


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## LostLouisianian

berrysblaster said:


> I honestly could barely write this with a straight face. I can only imagine lonetree reading 'bigger issues' and the nuclear explosion that the keyboard will endure afterwords...


If you think that will cause a nuclear explosion, wait until he reads my report on Glyphosate and Avian Cholera http://utahwildlife.net/forum/16-waterfowl/116418-avian-cholera-analysis-events-last-34-years.html

It blows all his "theories" out of the water and proves without a doubt that he was one trillion percent wrong on glyphosate and avian cholera...unless of course he claimed that while glyphosate usage has increased hundreds of percent over the last 30+ years the incidences of Avian Cholera have decreased over that time....but I don't think he said that...oops.


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## berrysblaster

ridgetop said:


> So what's the deal with this Wasatch unit, that has so many people's attention or interest?


Ridge in all seriousness this is the easiest way to understand our concern.

Between 2006 and 2010 LE ANTLERLESS hunts saw an average success rate of 55% with an estimated population of elk between 56-5900 head.

Between 2011-14 average success below 30% with a pop estimate between 77-8900 head.

Success reflects what hunters are seeing, less elk than ever before, but the division continues to make management decisions based on a population estimate that seems very suspect.


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## martymcfly73

The elk have got to be hiding behind the straight ones. Hence the term "bull ****"


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## goofy elk

Sheep creek to Strawberry,

Roads open....

Could have pulled a boat over it today.

Thought a few of you would like to know


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## stillhunterman

goofy elk said:


> Sheep creek to Strawberry,
> 
> Roads open....
> 
> Could have pulled a boat over it today.
> 
> Thought a few of you would like to know


Thanks for the road info goofy. You've been coverin' some ground looking for bruins, how's that going? Seen many? Hope you're having fun!


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## hazmat

There was a good bruin up current creek last weekend goofy big ole boy. But yes very few elk pretty freaking sad


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## goofy elk

I've got a really big one found ..

I Was tracking him with my yungest boy yesterday afternoon when the rain hit...
Miles from the jeep----It got nasty with mud sticking on the boots trying to get out!
He's in a spot that's SUPER tuff with this rain, access roads turm to COMPLETE junk!

Weather could very well shut my efforts down til the first of next week....

And I will NOT shoot a sow, ... And this big wont tree with hounds...
Very chalenging, time consuming hunt--------------I LOVE IT...:!:...8)....


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## hazmat

goofy elk said:


> I've got a really big one found ..
> 
> I Was tracking him with my yungest boy yesterday afternoon when the rain hit...
> Miles from the jeep----It got nasty with mud sticking on the boots trying to get out!
> He's in a spot that's SUPER tuff with this rain, access roads turm to COMPLETE junk!
> 
> Weather could very well shut my efforts down til the first of next week....
> 
> And I will NOT shoot a sow, ... And this big wont tree with hounds...
> Very chalenging, time consuming hunt--------------I LOVE IT...:!:...8)....


Very nice good luck keep us posted


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## Hunterchick

goofy elk said:


> I've got a really big one found ..
> 
> I Was tracking him with my yungest boy yesterday afternoon when the rain hit...
> Miles from the jeep----It got nasty with mud sticking on the boots trying to get out!
> He's in a spot that's SUPER tuff with this rain, access roads turm to COMPLETE junk!
> 
> Weather could very well shut my efforts down til the first of next week....
> 
> And I will NOT shoot a sow, ... And this big wont tree with hounds...
> Very chalenging, time consuming hunt--------------I LOVE IT...:!:...8)....


So.... I take it You haven't seen a bear yet, just its tracks, but you KNOW they are there and continue hunting. Think maybe that might be the case with the cow elk that are missing? Maybe they are somewhere else you haven't been to yet?


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## goofy elk

Hunterchick said:


> So.... I take it You haven't seen a bear yet, just its tracks, but you KNOW they are there and continue hunting. Think maybe that might be the case with the cow elk that are missing? Maybe they are somewhere else you haven't been to yet?


No, havn't actullaly seen one this year,,,, YET.......Very few even out so far.
But have seen, caught, and killed a good number in past years.

And as far as the elk,,,,,,
The Wasatch elk is about to be seen a the biggest DWR screw up ever...:!:...
Mark my words, Wait and see.


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## berrysblaster

Goof, I got one of them bear tags and I'd shoot at one but I can't find/haven't looked yet...never hunted these fuzzy critters before so I'm not overly motivated haha


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## berrysblaster

Hunterchick said:


> So.... I take it You haven't seen a bear yet, just its tracks, but you KNOW they are there and continue hunting. Think maybe that might be the case with the cow elk that are missing? Maybe they are somewhere else you haven't been to yet?


Have you found them? I'm waiting for someone to show me even 1/4 of the total number of elk that are supposedly on the unit.

I'd wager that I spent more time on this unit last year that 99.9% of hunters. I ended up having counted 1300 or so head. I have yet to talk to a single person that saw more or spent more time than me...


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## Vanilla

berrysblaster said:


> Between 2006 and 2010 LE ANTLERLESS hunts saw an average success rate of 55% with an estimated population of elk between 56-5900 head.
> 
> Between 2011-14 average success below 30% with a pop estimate between 77-8900 head.


These are the numbers that are craziest to me. They simply just don't add up if you want them to make any sense.


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## hazmat

berrysblaster said:


> Have you found them? I'm waiting for someone to show me even 1/4 of the total number of elk that are supposedly on the unit.
> 
> I'd wager that I spent more time on this unit last year that 99.9% of hunters. I ended up having counted 1300 or so head. I have yet to talk to a single person that saw more or spent more time than me...


What because you literally live right in the middle of the unit we are supposed to believe you spend more time than most on it Pshhh. All joking aside i spent alot of time at my property on this unit during the winter. Its a joke i used to have a herd of 200 elk i could watch off the back porch of the cabin every year on there winter grounds.Now i was lucky to see a herd of 10. What a joke imo the damage is already done disgusting management by the dwr.


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## goofy elk

I agree hazmat, The damage IS already done..:!:..

They will clean out the tail end of bulls on most of the unit this fall ....

Long , long road to recovery is coming for the Wasatch elk herd.


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## MuscleWhitefish

goofy elk said:


> I agree hazmat, The damage IS already done..:!:..
> 
> They will clean out the tail end of bulls on most of the unit this fall ....
> 
> Long , long road to recovery is coming for the Wasatch elk herd.


Maybe they are wanting to convert it into an open bull unit. They have to kill off a bunch of elk to get the density down to an open bull level.


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## hazmat

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Maybe they are wanting to convert it into an open bull unit. They have to kill off a bunch of elk to get the density down to an open bull level.


That would be a great idea because our open bull units in the state are of such high quality . I am leaning more that it was a cash grab from the dwr They had to make the money up from the cut deer tags somewhere.


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## berrysblaster

hazmat said:


> That would be a great idea because our open bull units in the state are of such high quality . I am leaning more that it was a cash grab from the dwr They had to make the money up from the cut deer tags somewhere.


It was neither, they absolutely counted those elk. They were there in January 2011, however, success clearly shows that they are not in there when we are managing for them.

The model is broken, whether it be because the elk are going to other units, harbored on private land, or whatever it doesn't matter. We are ineffective at managing them at the moment and the sportsmen are catching the raw end of the deal because of it.

Personally I Think they counted elk that weren't ours and made decisions based off of that flawed knowledge.


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## MuscleWhitefish

hazmat said:


> That would be a great idea because our open bull units in the state are of such high quality . I am leaning more that it was a cash grab from the dwr They had to make the money up from the cut deer tags somewhere.


Yes, they don't even have harvest reports for the general open bull.

I would bet it would be around 10%.
I would bet spike would be around 15%.

10,000 tags in areas where you can shoot any bull that you see, the kicker is these units only have a few elk.

10,000 tags in areas where you can only shoot spikes, the kicker is you will have to sort through all the bigger ones to find the spike.

Say 18,000 tags go to residents ($900,000) and 2,000 (~$800,000) tags go to non residents. It generates 1.7 million in revenue.

For around 2,500 animals killed.

The Wasatch could be converted to an any bull unit and they could sell 10,000 more open bull tags a year to double their monies.


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## hazmat

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Yes, they don't even have harvest reports for the general open bull.
> 
> I would bet it would be around 10%.
> I would bet spike would be around 15%.
> 
> 10,000 tags in areas where you can shoot any bull that you see, the kicker is these units only have a few elk.
> 
> 10,000 tags in areas where you can only shoot spikes, the kicker is you will have to sort through all the bigger ones to find the spike.
> 
> Say 18,000 tags go to residents ($900,000) and 2,000 (~$800,000) tags go to non residents. It generates 1.7 million in revenue.
> 
> For around 2,500 animals killed.
> 
> The Wasatch could be converted to an any bull unit and they could sell 10,000 more open bull tags a year to double their monies.


Well put. Yeah they can double their money for a few years. Then one day because they did such a crap job of managing the states herds .there will be a huge drop in number of animals and number of people buying the tags. Great long term management dwr.


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## hazmat

I am just glad I drew this tag in 09 if I had been building points and was wanting to hunt this unit within the next 5 years i would be pissed.so back to the general bull talk let all the max point holders from the wasatch transfer to other l e units in the state . Lets see how overcrowded that makes the draw pool on the other units


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## berrysblaster

hazmat said:


> Well put. Yeah they can double their money for a few years. Then one day because they did such a crap job of managing the states herds .there will be a huge drop in number of animals and number of people buying the tags. Great long term management dwr.


Personally I'd like to see this happen, manti, Wasatch, both cache units and maybe even la sals all converted to a general unit of sorts.

Not fully OTC but run with these rules:

#1 mandatory harvest report. This goes without explanation.

#2 a person may hunt archery every year, muzz every other, and rifle every third year. If you harvest, a mandatory additional year of ineligibility. So at the max a guy could hunt branch antlered Bulls every 4 years.

#3 you may hunt OTC or LE but not both. What will happen here is everyone with 10+ points will continue putting in for the southern premium units. Less than ten will jump ship alleviating the current point butt plug.

#4 5 point or better

#5 tags sold similar to current spike system. A cap and once they are gone they are gone.

In my mind this would let a guy hunt the spine of Utah for 300"+ Bulls on a regular basis. It affords the division a way to issue a bunch of permits, and encourages hunters to use primitive weapons with lower success rates. It moves a large amount of people through the system quickly.

I'm just a moron sportsman tho so what good are my thoughts?


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## MuscleWhitefish

berrysblaster said:


> Personally I'd like to see this happen, manti, Wasatch, both cache units and maybe even la sals all converted to a general unit of sorts.
> 
> Not fully OTC but run with these rules:
> 
> #1 mandatory harvest report. This goes without explanation.
> 
> #2 a person may hunt archery every year, muzz every other, and rifle every third year. If you harvest, a mandatory additional year of ineligibility. So at the max a guy could hunt branch antlered Bulls every 4 years.
> 
> #3 you may hunt OTC or LE but not both. What will happen here is everyone with 10+ points will continue putting in for the southern premium units. Less than ten will jump ship alleviating the current point butt plug.
> 
> #4 5 point or better
> 
> #5 tags sold similar to current spike system. A cap and once they are gone they are gone.
> 
> In my mind this would let a guy hunt the spine of Utah for 300"+ Bulls on a regular basis. It affords the division a way to issue a bunch of permits, and encourages hunters to use primitive weapons with lower success rates. It moves a large amount of people through the system quickly.
> 
> I'm just a moron sportsman tho so what good are my thoughts?


Let me add something to this. I like most of it.

Convert all units except 7.75 age(Book Cliffs Roadless, Beaver East, Pahvant, Monroe, and San Juan) into an open bull 5 point min or an any elk unit with elk permits set on area bull/cow ratios.

Harvest Reporting required within 48 hours of tagging the animal, will allow for the state to monitor quotas in certain areas and shut them down if the area reaches of 5% of the quota set before the season.

Make all resident general elk permits statewide with area harvest quotas and extended hunting seasons.

Archery : August 1 - September 30
Rifle: October 1 - November 15
Muzzleloader: November 16 - December 31

The waiting thing in two may be a little extreme, but it's certainly not a bad idea.


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## berrysblaster

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Let me add something to this. I like most of it.
> 
> Convert all units except 7.75 age(Book Cliffs Roadless, Beaver East, Pahvant, Monroe, and San Juan) into an open bull 5 point min or an any elk unit with elk permits set on area bull/cow ratios.
> 
> Harvest Reporting required within 48 hours of tagging the animal, will allow for the state to monitor quotas in certain areas and shut them down if the area reaches of 5% of the quota set before the season.
> 
> Make all resident general elk permits statewide with area harvest quotas and extended hunting seasons.
> 
> Archery : August 1 - September 30
> Rifle: October 1 - November 15
> Muzzleloader: November 16 - December 31
> 
> The waiting thing in two may be a little extreme, but it's certainly not a bad idea.


The only reason two is in there is too maintain a touch of quality while still allowing guys to hunt regularly.

I'd imagine the state would manage it for a success rate across all seasons somewhere in the 35-45% range meaning limited permits could be issued if they wanted maintain a level of decent quality. If that were the case adding an additional year of ineligibility moves more sportsmen through the system more frequently.


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## martymcfly73

I actually would go a long with your plan Berry. The inches crowd would never approve of it. And thus SFW and the DWR wouldn't go along with it. Money talks. SfW would lose a lot or money off those tags on the units you named. Good try though. I liked it.


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## hazmat

That sounds like a bunch of wounded archery animals a ton of overcrowding on a unit with sub par bulls no thanks. The wasatch was just fine 5 years ago .


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## Kwalk3

berrysblaster said:


> Personally I'd like to see this happen, manti, Wasatch, both cache units and maybe even la sals all converted to a general unit of sorts.
> 
> Not fully OTC but run with these rules:
> 
> #1 mandatory harvest report. This goes without explanation.
> 
> #2 a person may hunt archery every year, muzz every other, and rifle every third year. If you harvest, a mandatory additional year of ineligibility. So at the max a guy could hunt branch antlered Bulls every 4 years.
> 
> #3 you may hunt OTC or LE but not both. What will happen here is everyone with 10+ points will continue putting in for the southern premium units. Less than ten will jump ship alleviating the current point butt plug.
> 
> #4 5 point or better
> 
> #5 tags sold similar to current spike system. A cap and once they are gone they are gone.
> 
> In my mind this would let a guy hunt the spine of Utah for 300"+ Bulls on a regular basis. It affords the division a way to issue a bunch of permits, and encourages hunters to use primitive weapons with lower success rates. It moves a large amount of people through the system quickly.
> 
> I'm just a moron sportsman tho so what good are my thoughts?


That's an interesting thought. I don't think a few groups with a lot of pull would go for it, but the out of the box thinking is refreshing. Also, I trust your opinion of the unit since you are there so much. I believe it is down, but someone mentioned earlier that they were going to wipe out the rest of the bulls this year. Am I wrong in thinking that while there may not be as many elk as have been countes, that there are still quite a few elk on the Wasatch? Reading some guys' hyperbolic posts make it seem like elk are an endangered species on the wasatch. As with most things I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle....


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## hazmat

Kwalk3 said:


> That's an interesting thought. I don't think a few groups with a lot of pull would go for it, but the out of the box thinking is refreshing. Also, I trust your opinion of the unit since you are there so much. I believe it is down, but someone mentioned earlier that they were going to wipe out the rest of the bulls this year. Am I wrong in thinking that while there may not be as many elk as have been countes, that there are still quite a few elk on the Wasatch? Reading some guys' hyperbolic posts make it seem like elk are an endangered species on the wasatch. As with most things I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle....


there are still some decent bulls on the Wasatch but no cows or very few compared to what should be. if the cows can not reproduce the bull numbers will start to dwindle as well.and from personal experience they already have imo the worst is still to come long story short


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## berrysblaster

Kwalk3 said:


> That's an interesting thought. I don't think a few groups with a lot of pull would go for it, but the out of the box thinking is refreshing. Also, I trust your opinion of the unit since you are there so much. I believe it is down, but someone mentioned earlier that they were going to wipe out the rest of the bulls this year. Am I wrong in thinking that while there may not be as many elk as have been countes, that there are still quite a few elk on the Wasatch? Reading some guys' hyperbolic posts make it seem like elk are an endangered species on the wasatch. As with most things I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle....


I saw 1300 head last year so definitely not extinct. I also filmed the largest bull I've ever seen on the hoof.

It's not dooms day yet, but making management decisions based off of flawed models or counts will get you there before too long...


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## martymcfly73

Did anything come out of the meetings they had a few weeks ago? Or were they just to shut the sportsman up?


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## berrysblaster

martymcfly73 said:


> Did anything come out of the meetings they had a few weeks ago? Or were they just to shut the sportsman up?


Nothing immediate, mostly just a waste of time for all parties. A few ideas were tossed around that could potentially be written into the statewide plan later this year.... Can't remember any specifics tho


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## goofy elk

IMO,
The number one priority at this point should be to remove ALL antlerless elk permits on
the Wasatch unit...... LE, as well as unlimited cow control and hunters choice archery permits.

This would be a good starting point.

I would love to see the WB cut LE bull tags this week as-well..........


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## ridgetop

How can you justify cutting tags when the hunters are killing at or above the set age limit?
I can't support cutting tags when the hunters are still killing mature bulls at or above the set age limit.


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## berrysblaster

ridgetop said:


> How can you justify cutting tags when the hunters are killing at or above the set age limit?
> I can't support cutting tags when the hunters are still killing mature bulls at or above the set age limit.


Age objectives are trash...all they succeed in doing is removing the best genetics.

5 years ago that meant 350" 7 year old Bulls, now it's 320" 7 year old Bulls. In a few years it will be 300" 7 year old Bulls.


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## Vanilla

Berry, don't you think all 3 of those classifications already exist today on the Wasatch?


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## ridgetop

berrysblaster said:


> Age objectives are trash...all they succeed in doing is removing the best genetics.
> 
> 5 years ago that meant 350" 7 year old Bulls, now it's 320" 7 year old Bulls. In a few years it will be 300" 7 year old Bulls.


Sorry but I don't believe that for a minute.
When you get a bunch of hunters that can't find anything bigger that a 300" bull, that happens to be 7 years old. Then I might change my mind.


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## goofy elk

That's just it Ridge,
Killing bulls at " set age limits " in this situation thats going to be devitating in this situation!

The cows ARE GONE on most of the unit.......

YES, one more year left of decent bulls to be harvested.......

BUT, NO recruitmemt in the future...........NO COWS.....That's the problem!

Dead end road ahead......................................


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## berrysblaster

ridgetop said:


> Sorry but I don't believe that for a minute.
> When you get a bunch of hunters that can't find anything bigger that a 300" bull, that happens to be 7 years old. Then I might change my mind.


It's simple, guys will shoot the largest bull they can find, and size is not determined by age. The last 5 years are a perfect example of that, inches have steadily declined but the age class has remained the same. All the age class management has done is removed the cream of the crop Bulls.

TS while there are Bulls in each of those classifications on the unit finding them is getting harder and harder


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## ridgetop

I'm not saying I like the age objective system we now have but that is the system right now. Even if people are killing 300-320 bulls that are 5+ years old. Most people are happy with that type of bull. 
I would much rather see a bull/cow ratio of say, something like 30/100 on the LEs.


----------



## berrysblaster

ridgetop said:


> I'm not saying I like the age objective system we now have but that is the system right now. Even if people are killing 300-320 bulls that are 5+ years old. Most people are happy with that type of bull.
> I would much rather see a bull/cow ratio of say, something like 30/100 on the LEs.


But that's not the system we have now is it? Haha sorry, just had to flip it on you...


----------



## ridgetop

It's kind of funny how just ten years ago, just about everyone one these forums were complaining about how very few tags the DWR were giving out on the Wasatch and there was talk about many bulls dying of old age. Oh how things can change in just a decade.


----------



## silentstalker

The issue is not bull tags IMO. Hunter satisfaction is still quite high in my unscientific polls for bulls. 

The hot issue right now is the cow slaughter leading to a huge loss in recruitment that is the real issue with this herd right now. Anyone who truly knows this unit and has hunted it for over 10 years knows what has happened and has witnessed the massive drop in numbers.


----------



## ridgetop

silentstalker said:


> The issue is not bull tags IMO. Hunter satisfaction is still quite high in my unscientific polls for bulls.
> 
> The hot issue right now is the cow slaughter leading to a huge loss in recruitment that is the real issue with this herd right now. Anyone who truly knows this unit and has hunted it for over 10 years knows what has happened and has witnessed the massive drop in numbers.


So lets cut back on a few spike tags in that area then. As long as there are 5+ year old bulls being killed by most of the hunters no matter the score of the bull. Then tag cuts are not in order for mature bulls.


----------



## silentstalker

I am agreeing with you ridge. No bull tag cuts. Spike tag cuts wont help unless they were unit specific. 

Im hopeful that the gps studies will show a more realistic representation of where the cows are during hunting season. This unit used to be absolutely over run with elk. Now, they are saying there are even more than ever. Im talking cows here, we are still killing decent bulls.


----------



## hazmat

ridgetop said:


> It's kind of funny how just ten years ago, just about everyone one these forums were complaining about how very few tags the DWR were giving out on the Wasatch and there was talk about many bulls dying of old age. Oh how things can change in just a decade.


There lies the problem they went from one extreme to the other. Poor management


----------



## Vanilla

berrysblaster said:


> It's simple, guys will shoot the largest bull they can find, and size is not determined by age. The last 5 years are a perfect example of that, inches have steadily declined but the age class has remained the same. All the age class management has done is removed the cream of the crop Bulls.
> 
> TS while there are Bulls in each of those classifications on the unit finding them is getting harder and harder


I'm asking this question because I don't know, not to argue your point. I'm fairly new to the Wasatch. I've only hunted it for two years, so my question is legitimately that---a question.

Is it really true that there has been a steady decline in inches on the Wasatch? I could be way off, but it never held the reputation of a premium unit kicking out lots of huge bulls each year like a handful of the other units in the state. It seems to throw out a handful of 350+ bulls each year and a crap ton of 300-330 inch bulls. Isn't that how the unit has always been? There have been the cream of the crop, and the Wasatch has always seemed to be in that second tier...at least reputation wise. And from what I've observed the last two years, as far as size of bulls, I think it still fits that bill.

Am I off with that perception?

(This message makes no claim about the number of cows or the health of the unit as a whole...I simply am asking about the claim of a recent steady decline in inches.)


----------



## silentstalker

Yes, the size of bulls has declined over the last 10 years. There was a time when herd bulls were well over 350. That said, bulls are still being killed that score into the 350+ range, just not nearly as many and its awfully tough to find them. 
I am on board with the permit numbers. This has been decided to be a quality but also an opportunity LE hunt. Those who hunt really hard, or get really lucky can still shoot a really big bull. Most will shoot a 300-330" bull and be perfectly happy! Whoever says a 330 bull is not big is truly spoiled. 
My only issue is managing for age classification. This method does not directly tie in to trophy size or herd health. I would much prefer to see it managed for bull to cow ratios with real accurate overall herd numbers based upon elk on the unit during hunting season. 
If I were king for a day...


----------



## polarbear

The problem with bull:cow ratios is that bulls and cows winter separately in different areas and sometimes at different elevations. They are not like deer that winter in the same spot where you can get an accurate ratio count. bull:cow ratios during winter will yield highly variable results depending on the year/weather/sightability and will inevitably lead to inconsistent and highly variable tag allocations every year.


----------



## Dahlmer

silentstalker said:


> Yes, the size of bulls has declined over the last 10 years. There was a time when herd bulls were well over 350. That said, bulls are still being killed that score into the 350+ range, just not nearly as many and its awfully tough to find them.


I don't agree with this statement at all. I have seen more bulls approaching or exceeding the 350 mark in the past 5 years than before. Last year I know of 3 bulls taken out of the area we hunt that were near or exceeded 350. Getting one that big in any previous year was fortunate. That is partially due to the amount of moisture, but not entirely.

The real issue is the cows. I haven't seen the impact on the bullls yet, but it will eventually. Last year we watched a herd of 18 bulls during the deer hunt; there was 1 spike and 1 3+ year old bull. The rest were 2 year old bulls.

The spike hunts are much tougher and the nurseries are definately carrying fewer cows and calves. I remember finding herds of cows with 300+ head in June and July. That just isn't happening anymore...a big herd consists of 30-40 head, most about 1/2 that.


----------



## Igottabigone

TS30 said:


> I'm asking this question because I don't know, not to argue your point. I'm fairly new to the Wasatch. I've only hunted it for two years, so my question is legitimately that---a question.
> 
> Is it really true that there has been a steady decline in inches on the Wasatch? I could be way off, but it never held the reputation of a premium unit kicking out lots of huge bulls each year like a handful of the other units in the state. It seems to throw out a handful of 350+ bulls each year and a crap ton of 300-330 inch bulls. Isn't that how the unit has always been? There have been the cream of the crop, and the Wasatch has always seemed to be in that second tier...at least reputation wise. And from what I've observed the last two years, as far as size of bulls, I think it still fits that bill.
> 
> Am I off with that perception?
> 
> (This message makes no claim about the number of cows or the health of the unit as a whole...I simply am asking about the claim of a recent steady decline in inches.)


The former state record bull was killed on the Wasatch. Huge bull!!


----------



## Vanilla

Igottabigone said:


> The former state record bull was killed on the Wasatch. Huge bull!!


What year was that killed and what did it score? Not that one single bull proves it one way or the other, but I'm interested to hear the details on it.

There are still huge bulls being shot there. Every year there are a handful of bulls that are killed that would be shooters for almost any regular Joe hunter on any unit in the state. As many as the Pahvant? San Juan? Boulder? Monroe (in glory years)? Nope. But there wasn't as many killed 10 years ago as those units either.


----------



## berrysblaster

TS30 said:


> I'm asking this question because I don't know, not to argue your point. I'm fairly new to the Wasatch. I've only hunted it for two years, so my question is legitimately that---a question.
> 
> Is it really true that there has been a steady decline in inches on the Wasatch? I could be way off, but it never held the reputation of a premium unit kicking out lots of huge bulls each year like a handful of the other units in the state. It seems to throw out a handful of 350+ bulls each year and a crap ton of 300-330 inch bulls. Isn't that how the unit has always been? There have been the cream of the crop, and the Wasatch has always seemed to be in that second tier...at least reputation wise. And from what I've observed the last two years, as far as size of bulls, I think it still fits that bill.
> 
> Am I off with that perception?
> 
> (This message makes no claim about the number of cows or the health of the unit as a whole...I simply am asking about the claim of a recent steady decline in inches.)[/
> 
> keep in mind, I AM NOT AT ALL DISMAYED WITH THE SIZE OF BULLS WE HAVE TO HUNT. My only point is that age objective management is ineffective and only serves to remove the cream of the crop Bulls.
> 
> We have seen tag increases for 7 straight years now I think and have seen zero decline in age harvested. What we have seen is fewer 'trophy' Bulls. Regardless of opportunity, a tag that takes 8-15 years to draw is a 'trophy' hunt and we have failed to manage it for that.
> 
> All we are doing is asking more guys to wait longer to hunt less....then to top it all off, it would appear that we have cut our legs out from under us by recklessly killing cows jeopardizing the sustainability of the herd and of the current quality we do have.


----------



## Critter

Igottabigone said:


> The former state record bull was killed on the Wasatch. Huge bull!!





TS30 said:


> What year was that killed and what did it score? Not that one single bull proves it one way or the other, but I'm interested to hear the details on it.
> 
> There are still huge bulls being shot there. Every year there are a handful of bulls that are killed that would be shooters for almost any regular Joe hunter on any unit in the state. As many as the Pahvant? San Juan? Boulder? Monroe (in glory years)? Nope. But there wasn't as many killed 10 years ago as those units either.


Wasn't that the bull that Moss Back was guiding on and the hunter only had one bullet in his rifle and they had to send a runner back to the truck in Hobble Creek to get the rest of his ammo so that he could finish it off.

That was quite a few years ago.


----------



## silentstalker

Dahlmer said:


> I don't agree with this statement at all. I have seen more bulls approaching or exceeding the 350 mark in the past 5 years than before. Last year I know of 3 bulls taken out of the area we hunt that were near or exceeded 350. Getting one that big in any previous year was fortunate. That is partially due to the amount of moisture, but not entirely.
> 
> The real issue is the cows. I haven't seen the impact on the bullls yet, but it will eventually. Last year we watched a herd of 18 bulls during the deer hunt; there was 1 spike and 1 3+ year old bull. The rest were 2 year old bulls.
> 
> The spike hunts are much tougher and the nurseries are definately carrying fewer cows and calves. I remember finding herds of cows with 300+ head in June and July. That just isn't happening anymore...a big herd consists of 30-40 head, most about 1/2 that.


Its okay for you to disagree with me. This is all a perspective thing. I have spent a vast amount of time hunting the wasatch. We are still killing 350+ bulls. Last year a buddy put a 370 on the ground. Those that know the unit are still killing great bulls. But, the vast majority of hunters do not kill them and a lot don't see them.

Compared to 10 years ago, large bulls are much more difficult to find. Also, lots of "350" bulls get shot each year that wont score 330. True 350-370 bulls are not scattered all over the unit like they used to be.

The issue with recruitment wont hit for another 4-5 years but its going to rear its head before to long. That being said, I would take a LE tag on the wasatch for any season and have a tremendous hunt. We are spoiled here in Utah with giant bulls and very little pressure.


----------



## Dahlmer

silentstalker said:


> Its okay for you to disagree with me. This is all a perspective thing. I have spent a vast amount of time hunting the wasatch. We are still killing 350+ bulls. Last year a buddy put a 370 on the ground. Those that know the unit are still killing great bulls. But, the vast majority of hunters do not kill them and a lot don't see them.
> 
> Compared to 10 years ago, large bulls are much more difficult to find. Also, lots of "350" bulls get shot each year that wont score 330. True 350-370 bulls are not scattered all over the unit like they used to be.
> 
> The issue with recruitment wont hit for another 4-5 years but its going to rear its head before to long. That being said, I would take a LE tag on the wasatch for any season and have a tremendous hunt. We are spoiled here in Utah with giant bulls and very little pressure.


100% agree.


----------



## hazmat

silentstalker said:


> Its okay for you to disagree with me. This is all a perspective thing. I have spent a vast amount of time hunting the wasatch. We are still killing 350+ bulls. Last year a buddy put a 370 on the ground. Those that know the unit are still killing great bulls. But, the vast majority of hunters do not kill them and a lot don't see them.
> 
> Compared to 10 years ago, large bulls are much more difficult to find. Also, lots of "350" bulls get shot each year that wont score 330. True 350-370 bulls are not scattered all over the unit like they used to be.
> 
> The issue with recruitment wont hit for another 4-5 years but its going to rear its head before to long. That being said, I would take a LE tag on the wasatch for any season and have a tremendous hunt. We are spoiled here in Utah with giant bulls and very little pressure.


The recruitment problem will not take 4-5 years to see the affect. The cows were thinned out tremendously last year in 2 years this unit will be lesser then the fish lake unit. In 5 years you will finally hear the dwr admit their mistakes if nothing changes.


----------



## hazmat

It is not rocket science for the dwr if you give out an absurd amount of Anterless tags. And keep the bull tags the same recruitment dwindles fast.


----------



## silentstalker

Hazmat, my comments about recruitment were about the affect on bulls and quality. The recruitment on the overall herd numbers is already being realized now. Unfortunately the committee wont be making decisions or cuts until after the cow tags are finalized and validated by the wildlife board.


----------



## hazmat

Got it silentstalker this is not aimed you or even this thread. But there a few highly qualified guys who spend ther time not only during the hunting season but the whole year on this unit. And are heavily voicing there concerns about it in all of these wasatch threads. Again not calling you out. But for the average guy who's uncle rick got lucky last year and stumblef across a good heard to come on these legit discussions and claim the elk are there you just have to get off the road is laughable. We are past that point on the wasatch. I spent just about every weekend at my cabin wich is in the heart of the elk winter grounds.and I can promise everybody cow elk numbers are way down 

Are there still good bulls on the wasatch today yes is it still a decent tag today maybe for now. Are the cows definitely dwindling yes. I think most peoples concern is the future not the present


----------



## ridgetop

Has anyone brought any of these concerns up with the RACs or wildlife orgs.?
If so, what has been the response?


----------



## berrysblaster

ridgetop said:


> Has anyone brought any of these concerns up with the RACs or wildlife orgs.?
> If so, what has been the response?


Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhaahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahhaahhaha.....sorry shouldn't be so cynical, but this has been a 3 year on going process with racs, WB, napkin meetings, and committees all throwing the concern of the sportsmen to the curb.


----------



## silentstalker

Yes Ridge, I have. I have spoken with the Biologists, emailed anyone who would listen. The issue right now is the WB and DWR are held by law to manage for the elk plan. That management is based on their winter counts. Those winter counts are what most of us are disputing. 

No matter what we say, they are mandated to increase permits until their counts show the elk under that objective. Currently they say we are over objective. What our voices have done is call for a special committee to look into it, and a new study using radio collars on cows is underway to track the elk and see where they winter/summer/migrate. I believe 250 cows were collared this year and 250 more next year.


----------



## Vanilla

silentstalker said:


> Compared to 10 years ago, large bulls are much more difficult to find. Also, lots of "350" bulls get shot each year that wont score 330. True 350-370 bulls are not scattered all over the unit like they used to be.


Have true 350-370 inch bulls ever really been 'scattered all over the unit'? It's a pretty special unit for that to be the case, and honestly I don't think the Wasatch has ever been in that 'special' or 'elite' status like a few other units. Like you said, a lot of 350 bulls become 320-330 when someone that knows how to score puts a tape on it. A 370 inch bull is a VERY big bull, and I don't buy that they were ever scattered all across the unit. People kill a handful every year. I know of a 385 that was killed on the late hunt this year.

That said, I had eyes on a 370-class bull through the spotter two drainages over that we never turned up again on the muzzy hunt this year. It was a true giant. Length and mass everywhere. It was a special bull. We saw two other bulls we were pretty sure were north of 350 we couldn't ever get close to. Had two 335-340 inch bulls at less than 50 yards (both still haunt me and I didn't even have the tag) that we didn't kill. My brother chased a cool 330-ish bull the first couple days we couldn't get on. Not saying everyone sees that, and I consider myself really lucky to have seen that. But man, we sure weren't complaining about the size of bulls this year. My other brother had a muzzy tag in 2013 and killed a 326 inch bull. What we saw in 2014 was much bigger on average than 2013.

All that said, I agree with the negative direction in regards to herd health. I too hope management practices change. It may not be the premiere unit in the state, but it's a pretty awesome unit. I would hate to see it go to pot. As stated by many here, something has to change or it may get ugly.


----------



## silentstalker

Yes, there was a time when 350 bulls were scattered all over the unit. We had a run where we killed multiple 350+ bulls on the archery hunt from about 2004-2009. The biggest was a shade over 380. We were not even killing the biggest bulls we were seeing. The Wasatch kicked out multiple 400" bulls during that time frame. 

I am not trying to make it out to be a pahvant or San Juan but back in the early 2000's when tag numbers were low and bulls were at their highest in number the Wasatch was an incredible tag to have. The first few years of the late hunt they killed some huge bulls and they closed the hunt for a while due to concerns of shooting out the cream of the crop. Those concerns are no longer as valid because the cream of the crop are not really there anymore.

The Wasatch used to be targeted by Mossback with the statewide tags because of the quality. Those days are gone.


----------



## goofy elk

^^^^^^^ Spot on stalker ^^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## hazmat

ridgetop said:


> Has anyone brought any of these concerns up with the RACs or wildlife orgs.?
> If so, what has been the response?


Sent more emails and phone calls then I care to remember. And all the answers sounded the same we did a fly over. 2 winters ago


----------



## swbuckmaster

I spent 7 days scouting and hunting for turkey in prime time. I covered ground from american fork canyon, Provo canyon, Spanish fork canyon, diamond fork, Thistle and behind Nephi. Elevation from 5000-8500 feet. My binoculars covered even more country and I saw about 30 bull elk and not a single cow. In years past if I had covered that much ground id have seen hundreds of bulls and thousands of cows. The Wasatch is in terrible condition when you start talking elk. 

The deer seem to be doing great and should see hunting as good as its ever been in the last 20 years.

Turkeys are in every canyon with water! Elk should have been in the same areas!


----------



## hazmat

Sounds like my trip last week I hit deep creek wildcat avintaquin current creek red creek trout creek all in all I seen 15 cows and about 30 bulls. These were hiking trips to. Not just driving


----------



## berrysblaster

If this thread doesn't get 100 comments it's not really about the wasatch


----------



## Lobowatcher

berrysblaster said:


> If this thread doesn't get 100 comments it's not really about the wasatch


Yup, go big or go home! 8)


----------



## hazmat

Word


----------



## goofy elk

swbuckmaster said:


> I spent 7 days scouting and hunting for turkey in prime time. I covered ground from american fork canyon, Provo canyon, Spanish fork canyon, diamond fork, Thistle and behind Nephi. Elevation from 5000-8500 feet. My binoculars covered even more country and I saw about 30 bull elk and not a single cow. In years past if I had covered that much ground id have seen hundreds of bulls and thousands of cows. The Wasatch is in terrible condition when you start talking elk.
> 
> The deer seem to be doing great and should see hunting as good as its ever been in the last 20 years.
> 
> Turkeys are in every canyon with water! Elk should have been in the same areas!


 

^^^^^^^^^^^^ And another post that is spot on...:!:....^^^^^^^


----------



## berrysblaster

I saw 5 cows last night, everything's ok, there's plenty of elk!


----------



## johnnycake

I see your five and raise you the 15 I bumped into Monday


----------



## Kwalk3

I haven't been up to the Wasatch for a bit, but I saw 13 cows on the front in Farmington on Monday. That counts right?


----------



## Igottabigone

If you see five, just know that there are at least 50 more you didn't see in the trees nearby.


----------



## berrysblaster

Igottabigone said:


> If you see five, just know that there are at least 50 more you didn't see in the trees nearby.


Now we are back on track, this got all serious for like 50 posts.

I know there were AT LEAST 50 more cause I saw a squirrel run out that was clearly spooked from other unseen elk. Plus my lights were on so I scared them away...


----------



## hazmat

Kwalk3 said:


> I haven't been up to the Wasatch for a bit, but I saw 13 cows on the front in Farmington on Monday. That counts right?


I am sure the Dwr counted those elk as part of the wasatch as well. Same with tge ones on the ouqirhhs. Close enough right


----------



## martymcfly73

You guys are all liars. Every one of you who have seen elk or cows on the unit. They have been wiped off the face of the earth for years now. I told you guys this was coming. But no one listened. You're welcome.


----------



## JuddCT

Every time I see one cow I triple my count for the twin calfs she will have.


----------



## Kwalk3

martymcfly73 said:


> You guys are all liars. Every one of you who have seen elk or cows on the unit. They have been wiped off the face of the earth for years now. I told you guys this was coming. But no one listened. You're welcome.


Here is my opinion, which is worth as much as it costs. I don't doubt that there are many fewer cows on the Wasatch, and it has been recognized that there are some pretty bad inefficiencies and potential problems with the counts being done. I have zero problem with people pointing out ways to make things better and hope that these suggestions don't fall on deaf ears.

However, ranting and raving that the elk apocalypse is here(marty I know your post was sarcastic) and flat out stating that "the last of the bulls will get wiped out this year," or that the Wasatch elk herd is beyond saving as is implied sometimes is disingenuous and counterproductive. I respect a guy like berrysblaster who sees things headed in an unfavorable direction, but isn't suggesting that the elk are "gone."

There are things which seem to have been identified as potential sources of error with the counts that the new studies will hopefully help prove. Hopefully the DWR uses that information to make their decisions that will benefit all hunters on the unit. To all the guys actively seeking to solve the problems and providing honest constructive input to make the situation better, good work.


----------



## hazmat

Kwalk I think most peoples concern is on where the unit is heading for the future. Not last years elk hunts


----------



## Kwalk3

hazmat said:


> Kwalk I think most peoples concern is on where the unit is heading for the future. Not last years elk hunts


I realize and can definitely appreciate that. I'm referring to the select few that like to imply that there are almost no elk left on the wasatch today. All I'm saying is that having an honest discussion is hard enough to do without both sides misrepresenting what is actually going on.

I can appreciate that there is a problem and that something needs to be done about it. The DWR's counts need to be accurate, which most believe they are not right now. We also need to make sure our conversations are based in reality and not raw emotion too. (I am in no way referring to you about that.) Just trying to encourage productive conversation rather than mudslinging and doomsday sermons.


----------



## martymcfly73

You also have to realize this unit is huge. The area I hunt is in a different situation than say the area Berry is talking about. That area and some farther south get absolutely pounded from august to december. My area is in fairly good shape from my observations the last few years. I should pull a tag this year and will be thrilled with it. Are there problems? Sure. It would help to get a straight answer from the DWR. Hopefully these meetings will help although I hold out much hope.


----------



## berrysblaster

Come on guys not all serious again, we were just getting to where I could tell you where all the gay Bulls were hiding!


----------



## johnnycake

I know! I know! Berry, they are all in the closet, right?!


----------



## Kwalk3

berrysblaster said:


> Come on guys not all serious again, we were just getting to where I could tell you where all the gay Bulls were hiding!


We all know that gay bulls don't hide. Don't be ridiculous. On a serious note, the proliferation of gay bull elk will have a very detrimental effect on calf recruitment in the future.....


----------



## martymcfly73

They wontt be coming out til around June when the SCOTUS decides if their marriages are constitutional.


----------



## hazmat

The rainbow people converted all the elk last year. Now all wasatch bulls are headed to colorado to become tree smoking swingers


----------



## berrysblaster

johnnycake said:


> I know! I know! Berry, they are all in the closet, right?!


Negative, there is a bar called pinkies, mcfly is the bartender. Somewhere up AF canyon, on Tuesdays they do buy 1 get one free daiquiris that's when they all come


----------



## johnnycake

Right, how could I forget about Pinkies? You know what those bulls love to order there right?

Haaaaaa-aaay


----------



## martymcfly73

It's right above Sundance. Redford leased me a 12x12 space. We're the pink snowshack looking place.


----------



## Kwalk3

berrysblaster said:


> Negative, there is a bar called pinkies, mcfly is the bartender. Somewhere up AF canyon, on Tuesdays they do buy 1 get one free daiquiris that's when they all come


Is it legal/ethical to bait bull elk with daiquiris? I can't find it in the guidebook anywhere.


----------



## Vanilla

Kwalk3 said:


> Is it legal/ethical to bait bull elk with daiquiris? I can't find it in the guidebook anywhere.


I have actually been working on this issue with a group of concerned sportsmen. Lots of movers and shakers involved. I took notes on a napkin. You should expect changes soon!


----------



## derekp1999

Kwalk3 said:


> Is it legal/ethical to bait bull elk with daiquiris? I can't find it in the guidebook anywhere.


You'd have to talk the bear hunters... I hear they are master baiters.


----------



## berrysblaster

TS30 said:


> I have actually been working on this issue with a group of concerned sportsmen. Lots of movers and shakers involved. I took notes on a napkin. You should expect changes soon!


Too little too late these liberal elk are moving elsewhere, they find the conservative nature of Utah distasteful. Colorado will let them get married, and doesn't look down on the ones with undescended testicles.


----------



## Vanilla

berrysblaster said:


> Too little too late these liberal elk are moving elsewhere, they find the conservative nature of Utah distasteful. Colorado will let them get married, and doesn't look down on the ones with undescended testicles.


Well that's just great!


----------



## Critter

berrysblaster said:


> Too little too late these liberal elk are moving elsewhere, they find the conservative nature of Utah distasteful. Colorado will let them get married, and doesn't look down on the ones with undescended testicles.


That sucks, now there will be even more out of state hunters in Colorado looking for the gay pride flag flying from a elks antlers or down at the corner convenience store getting munchies.


----------



## hazmat

Another year of uncontrolled Anterless control permits no joking matter this unit is screwed in the years to come


----------



## Vanilla

hazmat said:


> Another year of uncontrolled Anterless control permits no joking matter this unit is screwed in the years to come


They reduced antlerless tags by over 1,000 on the Satch this year. Good start. They left control tags in place--not great, but probably not the end of the world if success rates stay the same. Success rates on control tags have been very low if the numbers they report are correct.

Depending on what seasons get tag cuts, that's approximately 250-400 more cows left after next year than there were this year. I know that doesn't solve the problem, but a step in the right direction. Right? Small step?


----------



## Kwalk3

TS30 said:


> They reduced antlerless tags by over 1,000 on the Satch this year. Good start. They left control tags in place--not great, but probably not the end of the world if success rates stay the same. Success rates on control tags have been very low if the numbers they report are correct.
> 
> Depending on what seasons get tag cuts, that's approximately 250-400 more cows left after next year than there were this year. I know that doesn't solve the problem, but a step in the right direction. Right? Small step?


See.....there's a reasonable, we'll thought out, rational post. I see steps are being taken to identify what is going wrong(collar study), and the draw tags are being reduced. It may not be enough for some people, but the world isn't ending and these at least seem like reasonable steps towards rectifying what appears to be an established problem. Hopefully they get it all sorted out sooner than later, but I would be willing to bet there will be some elk on the Wasatch next year.


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## goofy elk

So, K3,

Curious how much time you spend on the Wasatch unit, and were ?.

Between last night and this morning I did see 14 bulls....

But, same story, zero cows in an area that for many years was a 'main' nursery.


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## martymcfly73

Why does it matter how much time and where? His post was well thought out and rational. Unlike the doomsdayers or doomsdayer I should say.


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## goofy elk

hazmat said:


> Another year of uncontrolled Anterless control permits no joking matter this unit is screwed in the years to come


No doubt,
At least were I'm looking!

Spent 24 of the last 30 days on the south half of the Wasatch...
While Im still seeing a few bulls, the cow situation is dire.


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## hazmat

Kwalk3 said:


> See.....there's a reasonable, we'll thought out, rational post. I see steps are being taken to identify what is going wrong(collar study), and the draw tags are being reduced. It may not be enough for some people, but the world isn't ending and these at least seem like reasonable steps towards rectifying what appears to be an established problem. Hopefully they get it all sorted out sooner than later, but I would be willing to bet there will be some elk on the Wasatch next year.


I dont care what is a reasonable post. If it were not for guys having a fire under their belly and sending off emails voicing their concerns in a pissed off fashion. I guarantee these unrational guys you keep complaining about at least caught the dwrs attention. Not everybody goes into a battle with a wet noodle for a sword


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## martymcfly73

hazmat said:


> I dont care what is a reasonable post. If it were not for guys having a fire under their belly and sending off emails voicing their concerns in a pissed off fashion. I guarantee these unrational guys you keep complaining about at least caught the dwrs attention. Not everybody goes into a battle with a wet noodle for a sword


Just because some of us don't claim the sky is falling in every post on every unit doesn't mean we care any less than you guys. Sending pissed off and "unrational emails" just means you scream the loudest. Doesn't necessarily mean you're right and have any more credibility than the rest of us.


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## Kwalk3

goofy elk said:


> So, K3,
> 
> Curious how much time you spend on the Wasatch unit, and were ?.
> 
> Between last night and this morning I did see 14 bulls....
> 
> But, same story, zero cows in an area that for many years was a 'main' nursery.


Goofy,

I don't claim to spend near as much time on the wasatch as you. You even asking that question shows you either didnt read or didnt understand my post. Im not suggesting i know an ounce of what many of you guys do about the unit. I'm also not suggesting that everything is great up there. I'm simply observing what others are saying, and trying to assess from an unattached, un-emotional standpoint. You guys spend the time up there and I trust you are seeing(or not seeing) what you say you are.

I'm glad there are people concerned enough to do something. Sounds like there are some definite issues that I do hope are being addressed. All I'm suggesting is that yelling louder doesn't aways have the desired effect.

From what I can tell the dwr is misrepresenting what the numbers truly are, and that needs to be fixed(Seems to me they are slowly trying to figure out pieces to that puzzle.) However, I think it is equally disingenuous to represent the wasatch as completely devoid of elk.

I'm trying to find positives in the steps the dwr is taking. I dont think the elk on the wasatch are going completely extinct. Im sorry for that opinion. I truly do hope they get it figured out.


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## Kwalk3

hazmat said:


> I dont care what is a reasonable post. If it were not for guys having a fire under their belly and sending off emails voicing their concerns in a pissed off fashion. I guarantee these unrational guys you keep complaining about at least caught the dwrs attention. Not everybody goes into a battle with a wet noodle for a sword


Just wanted to clarify that I have never used the word "unrational." Ever. I also disagree that you have to voice your concerns in a "pissed off fashion" to get anything done.

I hope they can remedy the issues that face the Wasatch, which I have stated over and over. Yet, because i dont say "the end is near" you seem to be implying that I'm saying everything is great. There are issues and they seem to be taking the first steps towards fixing them. Everybody that cares should voice their opinion and make sure the other steps are followed through on.

I've had some great experiences hunting, scouting, and fishing on the Wasatch and plan on having more in the future. Good luck to you on your hunts this year.


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## Vanilla

hazmat said:


> I dont care what is a reasonable post. If it were not for guys having a fire under their belly and sending off emails voicing their concerns in a pissed off fashion. I guarantee these unrational guys you keep complaining about at least caught the dwrs attention. Not everybody goes into a battle with a wet noodle for a sword


While I agree the Satch is hurting, I couldn't disagree anymore with the underlying premis of this post. 'Unrational' and pissed off emails get sent to junk mail quicker than Rosanne Barr pounds a cup cake.

There were many concerned people that contacted the DWR and others over this issue. Many of them (which are many of you here) have the fire in the belly, but still did so with respect and rationality. Those are the people that are making a difference. Not some dudes who flew off the handle and had their emails deleted before they were even read through.

This much I know.


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## hazmat

Not saying you have to be pissed off guy or wet noodle at a sword fight guy. Yes being respectful in emails etc go along way. My emails had plenty of please and thank you's . But dont bash the other guys either because some of them go to work etc pissed off and voice their concerns to whoever will listen.


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## goofy elk

Personaly, Im just calling it how I see it....................

Been hunting on what is now the Watach unit since I was a young boy...... 

Saw my dad shoot a buck on Timp in 1968..

Saw my first Watach elk by Strawberry in the 70's .....

Hunted LE elk ( mostly guiding NR ) every year from 1995 thru 2011 ...

Still on the unit a TON.... Just VERY disapoited my kids will never see how it can be.
Pretty sad.


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## Vanilla

hazmat said:


> Not saying you have to be pissed off guy or wet noodle at a sword fight guy. Yes being respectful in emails etc go along way. My emails had plenty of please and thank you's . But dont bash the other guys either because some of them go to work etc pissed off and voice their concerns to whoever will listen.


Have you seen me criticize a single person about the Wasatch? If so, I'd like to see where.

Goof,

The unit is in trouble. But you talk about seeing your first Wasatch elk in Strawberry in the 70's. How much did the unit improve from the 1970's until the glory days of the 2000's? There may have been some mistakes made, but nothing better decisions and some time can't take care of and fix. Your kids may see the Satch better than you ever saw it in your lifetime.

Then again, it may go the way some on here have predicted. These things ebb and flow over time. Some of that we can control, some we can't.


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## MuscleWhitefish

Did you guys here they are going to start stocking sterile elk on the Wasatch?

The biologist feel it is a great way to control their numbers.

The elk will be released two days before the hunt to give hunters more opportunity.

A nursery herd will be set up on Antelope Island and they will take the biggest bull out of San Juan, Monroe, Book Cliffs Roadless, Beaver, & Pahvant as well as cows from the Wasatch and Chalk Creek.

The calves will be neutered and spayed upon birth, and will be released into general season areas to provide hunter opportunity. 

It will also give an opportunity for conservation tags on the Island, which will provide more income to the division to run this program.


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## dkhntrdstn

I spent alot of time on the Wasatch Doring the summer and im starting to see the elk more and more on privet land up there and they are not coming off there at all. If they do they are staying really close to that land. So with one set they are back on there being safe. The so much privet land up there now it sad to see. You cant just drive the road and see elk that not going to happen any more. I think there still plenty of elk up there.


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## swbuckmaster

Why would they come out? The elk are hunted for 9 months a year with every weapon. That's the problem.


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## goofy elk

TS30 said:


> Have you seen me criticize a single person about the Wasatch? If so, I'd like to see where.
> 
> Goof,
> 
> The unit is in trouble. But you talk about seeing your first Wasatch elk in Strawberry in the 70's. How much did the unit improve from the 1970's until the glory days of the 2000's? There may have been some mistakes made, but nothing better decisions and some time can't take care of and fix. Your kids may see the Satch better than you ever saw it in your lifetime.
> 
> Then again, it may go the way some on here have predicted. These things ebb and flow over time. Some of that we can control, some we can't.


In the late 70's, elk were pretty rare still, very few at all.
Numbers increased some through the mid 80's , but general season elk
hunting kept the bull numbers low. Amost completly spikes and raghorns.

The big change came when they did away with anybull and went to
spike only in 1989 I believe it was...Thats were things REALLY changed..
In the following years, most utah hunters got to see what a mature
bull looked like! AND on surrounding units as the same managment was
applied as-well....Nebo, Manti, and several more units......

By the early 90's we were finaly seeing 300" bulls running herds during
the rut. It was very cool seeing it close by. Pryor to those years one
had to go to the Book Cliffs or somwere simular to see big bulls.

I had an Avintiaquin LE bull permit in 1993, killed a 297" bull, he was
huge for that time frame. But thats when things took off BIG TIME!

In 1996, there was 1 NR permit for LE elk, Wasatch west, 
We had a client draw it.
The opening day of that hunt we saw 47 diffent bulls!
Yes, 47.....One day.

The following dozen years were fantastic!

It was normal to see herds of 60 plus elk together pre rut everywere.

Rut time, groups of 15 to 30 cows with herd bulls fighting off 6-8 other bulls!
Common-Common-Common!!!!!!! In every other canyon......
You had to see it to believe it.......
And those of us that did, MISS IT ...:!:...


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## Vanilla

I guess what I was getting at is this: if it happened before, it can happen again. The reality is that stretch of glory years you mention probably wasn't sustainable forever. But it can be better than where it is headed. We can all work together to try and make that happen. 

Sounds like that up until the mid-late 90's...people would have killed to have the Satch as it is today.


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## martymcfly73

goofy elk said:


> In the late 70's, elk were pretty rare still, very few at all.
> Numbers increased some through the mid 80's , but general season elk
> hunting kept the bull numbers low. Amost completly spikes and raghorns.
> 
> The big change came when they did away with anybull and went to
> spike only in 1985 I believe it was...Thats were things REALLY changed..
> In the following years, most utah hunters got to see what a mature
> bull looked like! AND on surrounding units as the same managment was
> applied as-well....Nebo, Manti, and several more units......
> 
> By the early 90's we were finaly seeing 300" bulls running herds during
> the rut. It was very cool seeing it close by. Pryor to those years one
> had to go to the Book Cliffs or somwere simular to see big bulls.
> 
> I had an Avintiaquin LE bull permit in 1993, killed a 297" bull, he was
> huge for that time frame. But thats when things took off BIG TIME!
> 
> In 1996, there was 1 NR permit for LE elk, Wasatch west,
> We had a client draw it.
> The opening day of that hunt we saw 47 diffent bulls!
> Yes, 47.....One day.
> 
> The following dozen years were fantastic!
> 
> It was normal to see herds of 60 plus elk together pre rut everywere.
> 
> Rut time, groups of 15 to 30 cows with herd bulls fighting off 6-8 other bulls!
> Common-Common-Common!!!!!!! In every other canyon......
> You had to see it to believe it.......
> And those of us that did, MISS IT ...:!:...


It wasn't until the mid or early 90's it went spike only. My buddy killed a big 6x6 up af canyon around then on an open bull tag. I'd say 94-95. It was 330 ish. A monster back then.


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## goofy elk

martymcfly73 said:


> It wasn't until the mid or early 90's it went spike only. My buddy killed a big 6x6 up af canyon around then on an open bull tag. I'd say 94-95. It was 330 ish. A monster back then.


From the elk managment plan........

"
Elk were hunted under a limited entry hunting system until 1967 when the Board of Big Game Control adopted an "open bull" hunt strategy on most large elk units. Smaller elk units continued to be managed as "restricted permit" or "limited entry" type hunts. That hunting strategy continued until 1989 when a "yearling only" regulation was initiated on the two largest elk herds" 

This was on the Manti and Fishlake. Then on the Wasatch the following year.


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## martymcfly73

No sense in arguing sense you're always right.


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## BradN

You aren't seeing bulls, even gay ones, because y'all have a selenium deficiency. Eat more selenium and you'll see more bulls. Or I can sell you some essential selenium oils.


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## berrysblaster

BradN said:


> You aren't seeing bulls, even gay ones, because y'all have a selenium deficiency. Eat more selenium and you'll see more bulls. Or I can sell you some essential selenium oils.


It's the undescended testicles, they are creating a lack of confidence. This we have a bunch of sissy bulls


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## Dunkem

:roll:-O\\__-:deadhorse::blah::blah:


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## hazmat

Dunkem said:


> :roll:-O\\__-:deadhorse::blah::blah:


Yup thia thread got really lame pretty qyickt


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## swbuckmaster

I don't know why any of you daft plunkers haven't pointed out its the big bulls taking away food from the calves that's causing the reproduction crash.


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## berrysblaster

hazmat said:


> Yup thia thread got really lame pretty qyickt


It's cause you tool bags don't have anything productive to add too our intelligent conversation. Maybe you could help mcfly learn the difference between 'since' and 'sense'?


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