# Deer numbers



## DeepTines (Dec 19, 2018)

I'm sure a lot of you have seen this article but I'm curious on what everyone thinks. How have your units been? Have the deer numbers increased on your unit? I believe it's a lot of BS. I have only seen a drastic decline in deer numbers on the unit we like to hunt. I know I'm not the only one who has had the same experience the past few years. Just curious on your thoughts?

https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah...or-the-upcoming-general-season-deer-hunt.html


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You have to remember when they are counted, when they are on their winter grounds. You also need to remember that it is also bucks and does. 

In the two units that I was in this year I saw a lot fewer deer and a lot less bucks. 

I spent a week plus in both units 

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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I saw a lot less in the area I hunt this year. Only saw one that I wanted, and didn't get a chance to get him. Saw some little ones, and a handful of bucks that if they make it through this year they will pretty good next year. 
Have a couple of new landowners in the area with several teenage kids each. They pretty much all go all 3 hunts. Shoot everything that moves.........don't have what we used to have running around anymore. 
Had the early rifle and am having tag soup. 
That's okay, it's just good to be out and about.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I think weather has been a big issue in a lot of areas. Deer are still very spread out. I haven’t seen as many, but hot dry weather has been a huge issue.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Tag soup for all four in my hunting camo this year. Had the ML tags and last year saw at least 8-12 small bucks every day. We have a 3 point or better rule in our group or nothing at all. 


We saw fewer deer numbers and less bucks for sure. I think we only found a handful of bucks that were better than two points. They were seen through optics from the opposite ridge. Nothing we deemed large enough to go after. Biggest was 22".


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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

Because of the wet year we had, and feed/water as plentiful as it was and still is, I think it’s spread the deer pretty thin. More than normal anyways. I do agree the numbers are still lower than they claim there is. I’ve been all over 2 general units this year and have noticed a huge decrease in both does and bucks and have also notice that most does don’t have fawns, where as most years there are fawns with most does. They need to come up with a better system that gives a more accurate number for animal totals. I dunno how many deer we actually have, but I do know that 370,000 isn’t even close to correct


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Some things are like clockwork and can be expected every year. The annual complaints that the deer numbers are too low is just one of them. I've been telling people that my deer hunt this year was the best I have had since I hunted the pauns in 2009...and, that's after a disappointing start and seemingly low numbers on the bow hunt.


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

The long term decline in the Boulder deer herd continues along with rabbits, turkeys and grouse. Well fed predators.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I dont think anyone has shorter memories than the typical Utah hunter. Anyone remember the massive winter we had last year? The one with snow all the way through fawning season? This year had less deer than years prior that I saw... and next year will be even worse as there were fewer fawns this year.

Lets hope for a very mild winter this year... I personally think its going to be as heavy as last year was, but I hold hope for a milder one.


-DallanC


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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

The unit I hunted was pretty sad for deer numbers. Everyone I talked to echoed the same results that I did. I am with Dallan the late, wet winter had a large affect. Not complaining, it is a general unit that had leftover tags, just seemed more slim than most years didn't even see many doe.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Hunter Tom said:


> The long term decline in the Boulder deer herd continues along with rabbits, turkeys and grouse. Well fed predators.


Yes because predator population must be booming if they have nothing to eat. Predators can suppress how fast a population goes back at times but predators follow prey populations. If there's not enough animals to eat predator populations also decline. Maybe last winter has something to do with it? I couldn't get to most places until a week into June that I can usually get to the beginning of May.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

DallanC said:


> I dont think anyone has shorter memories than the typical Utah hunter. Anyone remember the massive winter we had last year? The one with snow all the way through fawning season? This year had less deer than years prior that I saw... and next year will be even worse as there were fewer fawns this year.
> 
> Lets hope for a very mild winter this year... I personally think its going to be as heavy as last year was, but I hold hope for a milder one.
> 
> -DallanC


This. Next year you won't have many yearling bucks because last winter killed most fawns. As I said, I couldn't get to places until a week into June because of snow this year. I've never seen that. As for this winter my senses say mild, or at least I'm hoping that.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I've spent a TON of time this year on Boulder, Fishlake, and the Manti.
While there's defiantly some good
mature bucks.
The overall deer numbers are down everywhere .....


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Don't they count in November/December? Wouldn't most winter kill occur after? We had a heavy Feb-April.

I personally feel like there are less deer and more elk. That's with the ol' eye test though. #science


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

We had a lot of snow, but the “official reports” were that winter kill was not high. It’s interesting, we were in a CWMU last week where a group had been going for 30 years. They insisted it was one of the worst years they’d seen in all that time for deer numbers and numbers of bucks. Lots of reports of not seeing as many bucks, but the official counts remain high.

For those disputing the numbers, do you think the DWR is incompetent in how they count or dishonest in how they report? 

These are big allegations, so hopefully there is more to it than just “I didn’t see as many deer in the one canyon we hunt every year, so they must be wrong.”


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

A couple things: 1) biologists do post season buck/doe ratio deer classifications. These are not counts; they simply classify deer as buck/does following the hunts 2) they do early season/spring adult/fawn classifications where they simply classify deer as adults/fawns to determine the number of fawns in a given year class. They do NOT do counts. This is an important fact. The DWR does classifications and then the classifications are used to determine whether individual herds and statewide populations are increasing or decreasing. The population numbers you see are mathematically determined using population models. Truthfully, there is very little or no reason for the DWR to fudge numbers or manipulate models. Again, these types of threads are as typical as you get.

I hunt some of the same areas year in and year out. Our typical hunting area is seeing a down trend in deer numbers according to the eye test, but I hunted a new area this year on the same unit and found great numbers of not only deer but mature bucks. I was very impressed with what I saw in that area. So, is the unit up or down? One thing I do know about both areas is that the amount of feed was outstanding and the areas available for deer to live in this year were far and above what they had been compared to the last few years because of all the water we got this spring. My opinion is that deer are spread out.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

I laugh every year that I see guys complain about deer numbers being down because I am always able to find deer and a couple decent bucks to hunt. Well, I just finished hunting Fillmore early rifle season. Overall deer numbers way down for me and I did not see a single buck bigger than a 2pt in 4 days of hard hunting. In the areas I hunt, I would typically see at least 20-30 does a day and anywhere from 3 to 8 bucks each day. This year I was seeing 3 or 4 does a day and say 4 bucks total for the hunt. I thought they were just somewhere else, or nocturnal, but now, I do believe we had a significant winter kill.


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

Im new to Utah so can only go off what I have heard. Im hunting Wasatch East but from what I have heard from a couple years back to now it appears to be low. During muzzy I saw probably 15 bucks. All were small forks or less except one decent 4x4 in thicker area. But seems like Utah likes the money factor of tons of tags. Could be as there are way more hunters in the state so they want to allow as many people to hunt as they can or they just like the money.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Aznative said:


> Im new to Utah so can only go off what I have heard. Im hunting Wasatch East but from what I have heard from a couple years back to now it appears to be low. During muzzy I saw probably 15 bucks. All were small forks or less except one decent 4x4 in thicker area. But seems like Utah likes the money factor of tons of tags. Could be as there are way more hunters in the state so they want to allow as many people to hunt as they can or they just like the money.


I'm pretty critical of Utah on a number of things, but I don't think the $40 a tag is an incentive. The real money is in conservation/auction tags and we love to just give that away.

Our general units are supposed to meet B ratio's and population goals. There isn't an age or size objective on general units. I may be suspect of the true deer numbers and counts, I don't think there is a money agenda behind our general seasons.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I think hunter numbers are up.

:-|

I saw hundreds of turkeys this weekend. I even saw turkeys on the sand dunes!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> I saw hundreds of turkeys this weekend. I even saw turkeys on the sand dunes!


I saw a really nice buck this summer out on the north end of Sand Mountain. Guess he likes the sound of waste gates and smell of Klotz.

-DallanC


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

utah does tag allocations off a three year average. So don't expect to see tag cuts for a few years

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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

This thread cracks me up. It's the same thread of every year where the gloom and doom of deer numbers rears it's ugly head. Somehow we hunters go out a few weekends a year to scout/hunt and we all of a sudden know more about deer numbers than the biologists that spend the majority of their time in the field.

Wildlife models help "estimate" numbers and allow for the observation of population trends. These models do not give exact numbers by any stretch. I think we let ourselves get carried away by our personal experience of the hand full of weekends we go out and we develop the gloom and doom mentality or conspiracy theories about revenue and how the DWR is only out to get our money. W2U is right on the ball with the trend and estimation modeling.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Makes you wonder why anyone applies for tags.How many of you complaining are going to save the herds by not shooting a deer this year if you have a chance?

The DWR has a tough job, trying to placate a bunch of people who have a wildly differing view as to what they want as far as population and age class are concerned.

My personal observation? Not as many deer as in years past but quite a few does with fawns and a pretty representative age class of bucks. This in an area that had some of the worst winter kill per the DWR.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> utah does tag allocations off a three year average. So don't expect to see tag cuts for a few years
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I absolutely hate the 3 year avaerage management that Utah uses!

It SUCKS IMO......


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Crack up all you want. 
A question was asked and I answered it with my viewpoint. 
I have hunted my area for over 30 years. I think I know if there was more or less deer this year. 
And no, I did not take a little one just to fill my tag. I passed up 3 points, and 3 small 4 points. 
I was glad to be just out and about. I know the whole deal has an eb and flow to it. 
The thing that worries me is the number of does without fawns that I saw. One bunch of 7 together. 

Some of us aren't as bad as you think we are.
And some of you aren't as good as you think you are.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

2full said:


> Crack up all you want.
> A question was asked and I answered it with my viewpoint.
> I have hunted my area for over 30 years. I think I know if there was more or less deer this year.
> And no, I did not take a little one just to fill my tag. I passed up 3 points, and 3 small 4 points.
> ...


I agree with you. There are a lot of guys out there that live for deer hunting and watching. They spend dozens of days in the field specifically looking at deer. A biologist does not do this. He is too busy doing many other projects. What I'm hearing from many seasoned hunters that have spent dozens of days in the field this year is numbers are way down. They are definitely down in the area I hunted the last three years. We have found multiple lion kills and I have had several family members see these lions in person. I have had several caught on my trail cameras too.


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

Maybe my money post was a little fetched. But have seen other states get in binds for hurting populations with increase of tags so makes ya wonder why. Regardless I guess could be hard for biologists to guesstimate what winter kill could be etc etc each year with winters being unpredictable. However I do agree if someone hunts one area for years and years and sees population change as theys have pretty decent knowledge.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Been seeing plenty of does and does with fawns this year. Not many bucks though, even smaller ones are a bit hard to come by.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> Been seeing plenty of does and does with fawns this year.


Me too. I can't tell you how many does with 3 fawns I've seen. Is that weird??


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> I agree with you. There are a lot of guys out there that live for deer hunting and watching. They spend dozens of days in the field specifically looking at deer. A biologist does not do this..


Now, that's funny. Biologists literally spend hundreds of days not only looking at deer but evaluating the data they are getting from their classifications. Sorry, but no guy out there who "literally spend dozens of days in the field" spend more time in the field than the biologists who do it for a career. And, to top it off, these guys are usually in their profession because they have an innate love of hunting and deer. Sorry, but all of this anecdotal evidence from hunters doesn't hold nearly as much water as the data gathered throughout the year by biologists. Personally, I will take their side every time.

This conflict reminds me of this study done in Colorado: https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_there_Challenges_of_credibility_in_Colorado

Like we see every year, Colorado sportsmen or deer hunters were challenging the population estimates by the CDOW. So, to resolve the issue, representatives of sportsmen groups were allowed to participate in specific counts of selected units which were conducted from helicopters. Ultimately, the estimated population size was around 7000-7300 deer compared to the sportsmen's estimates of 1,750 deer. Even though the CDOW were able to confirm what they already believed, "After the survey, sportsmen did not accept survey estimates despite their involvement in the design, analysis, and interpretation of the validation survey." I would contend that the same thing would happen in Utah.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> Me too. I can't tell you how many does with 3 fawns I've seen. Is that weird??


Very weird.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

What worries me are the number of fawns that are still very small with winter moving in. We may see a lot of winter kill this year.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

While in 2 units this year I saw very few fawns and those that I did see looked to be larger than normal. I also saw fewer calf elk and those were 3/4's grown. 

Not scientific but just out in each of those units for a week each this year.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

The weird thing is the biologists and DWR in the central region were never out scouting for deer but working on dedicated hunters projects, spraying weeds, and focused on the limited entry units. They are hoping the projects will help the deer numbers for the future. With all the field ecology classes I took and mathematical equations for estimating population (like sampling and Mark-recapture) These all estimated higher than the real population. The best we could get was within 20% of the real population. So when I hear 370,000, minus 20% for that and it is probably close


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Very weird.


The third fawn was adopted after a lion killed it's mother. Oh wait, lions only eat bucks. They must be in foster care after the mother went alcoholic and abused the fawn.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Now, that's funny. Biologists literally spend hundreds of days not only looking at deer but evaluating the data they are getting from their classifications. Sorry, but no guy out there who "literally spend dozens of days in the field" spend more time in the field than the biologists who do it for a career. And, to top it off, these guys are usually in their profession because they have an innate love of hunting and deer. Sorry, but all of this anecdotal evidence from hunters doesn't hold nearly as much water as the data gathered throughout the year by biologists. Personally, I will take their side every time.
> 
> This conflict reminds me of this study done in Colorado: https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_there_Challenges_of_credibility_in_Colorado
> 
> Like we see every year, Colorado sportsmen or deer hunters were challenging the population estimates by the CDOW. So, to resolve the issue, representatives of sportsmen groups were allowed to participate in specific counts of selected units which were conducted from helicopters. Ultimately, the estimated population size was around 7000-7300 deer compared to the sportsmen's estimates of 1,750 deer. Even though the CDOW were able to confirm what they already believed, "After the survey, sportsmen did not accept survey estimates despite their involvement in the design, analysis, and interpretation of the validation survey." I would contend that the same thing would happen in Utah.


I figured that I would get a rise out of you. I'll respond to your clueless response when I have more time.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> The third fawn was adopted after a lion killed it's mother. Oh wait, lions only eat bucks. They must be in foster care after the mother went alcoholic and abused the fawn.


that.....or we have high quality habitat, and good buck:doe rations that provide opportunities for "multiple paternity" triplets.

FWIW -- Pine Valley and Zion are where I've seen numerous sets of triplets.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> I figured that I would get a rise out of you. I'll respond to your clueless response when I have more time.


Yeah, clueless. Because, of course, you are the deer master and we are all supposed to worship your opinions...which, of course, are just that!

I'll wait for your wonderful response...while I am still laughing at the stupidity of the first one!


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Here’s the way I’m going to approach this low numbers issue. If I shoot a buck this weekend/next week, I’ll say the numbers are great! If I don’t, I’ll blame it on low deer numbers... 😁😉


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Ray said:


> Here's the way I'm going to approach this low numbers issue. If I shoot a buck this weekend/next week, I'll say the numbers are great! If I don't, I'll blame it on low deer numbers... &#128513;&#128521;


That's the spirit. Keep us updated.

OH Crap.....TOTP!!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It is not always the case when someone disagrees with another that they are "clueless" or "stupid." 

Now, there are absolutely clueless and stupid comments and people out there, but it just is not always the case. 

Carry on, idiots! :grin:


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## Hunttilidrop (Jun 12, 2018)

I’ll say this... I remember when I first had my own tag in 1992 there was more bucks running around than you could shake a stick at. As a family we filled 5 tags opening weekend and I filled mine on the last day that year. Mom let me miss school. It used to end on a Monday back then. Before that me and Jake used to be obsessed with mule deer and go look every chance we had. Some times we’d see herds of bucks in the 20’s on the winter range. And mature ones too. Then there was the winter of 93 and it wiped out the deer dramatically. I’ve had a tag every year since and have seen the herd slowly come back. So in the area I hunt I’d agree with the DWR that there’s more deer now then there was 25 years ago. (1994) As for their 370,000 estimate I don’t know. I’d like to know what the estimate was in 1992.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I like where this is going... I want to hear Ridge response


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Hunttilidrop said:


> I'll say this... I remember when I first had my own tag in 1992 there was more bucks running around than you could shake a stick at. As a family we filled 5 tags opening weekend and I filled mine on the last day that year. Mom let me miss school. It used to end on a Monday back then. Before that me and Jake used to be obsessed with mule deer and go look every chance we had. Some times we'd see herds of bucks in the 20's on the winter range. And mature ones too. Then there was the winter of 93 and it wiped out the deer dramatically. I've had a tag every year since and have seen the herd slowly come back. So in the area I hunt I'd agree with the DWR that there's more deer now then there was 25 years ago. (1994) As for their 370,000 estimate I don't know. I'd like to know what the estimate was in 1992.


Agreed! Also, don't forget the winter of 2007. It was a brutal winter and we lost a lot of wildlife that year as well. That's the year I got married and my wife moved to Utah. She calls it the "Welcome to Utah but I don't want you here" winter.


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## DAdams23 (Sep 28, 2018)

I think it's common sense. Hard winter = more winter kill. 
If you get off your ass and hike 5 miles into the backcountry you'll find deer. 
Although, it is much more appealing to shoot them off of the hood of your side by side 


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

DAdams23 said:


> I think it's common sense. Hard winter = more winter kill.
> If you get off your ass and hike 5 miles into the backcountry you'll find deer.
> Although, it is much more appealing to shoot them off of the hood of your side by side
> 
> ...


Four years ago I had scoped out a new area. It looked so promising as there was a bit of a funnel from 3 different areas that were not accessible via road. So opening morning, I hiked into this area, expecting to see lots of deer when the pressure and shooting started around. Heard lots of shots in the far distance back towards the roads. I did not see a single deer all day. On my hike back out, 100 yards from the parking lot/trailhead, wouldn't you know it...two deer standing looking at me. I did well over 5 miles that day on foot.

Stupid deer!


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## DAdams23 (Sep 28, 2018)

Vanilla said:


> Four years ago I had scoped out a new area. It looked so promising as there was a bit of a funnel from 3 different areas that were not accessible via road. So opening morning, I hiked into this area, expecting to see lots of deer when the pressure and shooting started around. Heard lots of shots in the far distance back towards the roads. I did not see a single deer all day. On my hike back out, 100 yards from the parking lot/trailhead, wouldn't you know it...two deer standing looking at me. I did well over 5 miles that day on foot.
> 
> Stupid deer!


It must be my inner elk hunter in me, I like to walk stupid long distances 

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## UintaYETI (Jan 9, 2017)

Hunted the Uinta high country around 10k feet the opening week of archery. Saw 5 total deer in 6 days of hunting/glassing... 

Fortunate to harvest the best buck I saw on the last day of my hunt.


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