# Hypothetical Question on Elk Hunting



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

So let's say you're going for that bull elk of a lifetime and you want to be able to make a clean ethical shot out to 500 yards. What caliber would you use? I don't really care about the model of rifle, just specifically want to know what caliber....let the games begin!


----------



## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

300 Win Mag

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

160 gr lead core bullet from a 7mm Mag is plenty.


----------



## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

I was a witness to a huge bodied 5 point bull taken at 520 yards with a 165gr bullet from a 30-06. You may have seen my reply on another thread but he was using Hornady Light Magnum ammo (now given the cheesy title Superformance).

I wouldn't hesitate to use that same exact setup again, but I now own a 7mm Rem Mag and that would be my first choice. That's more than enough for elk at that range with the right bullet.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I did that shot and more with a .340 Weatherby and 225 grain bullets.

He didn't know what hit him.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

.50 BMG Go big or go home ;-)


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Anything in 7MM, 30 Cal, or 338 that will launch a 160-225 grain bullet at 3000+ fps. There are many others but this parameter range should offer you at least 20-30 options. My personal choice would be a hot 7MM. The universal answer would probably be the 300 Win.--------SS


----------



## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

300 Remington Ultra Magnum.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


----------



## AJ13 (Apr 28, 2015)

7mm


----------



## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

.256 Newton


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

middlefork said:


> .50 BMG Go big or go home


Karl is that you????


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Because we are talking about an elk of a lifetime and because we want to be sure that there is a lot of downrange energy transfer needed (assuming a quality bullet is used), and since everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room....

I would go with a Lazzeroni 7.21 Firebird with a 168gr bullet. Shoots about 3400 Fps from the muzzle.










A 7.82 Warbird would be pretty awesome too.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

LostLouisianian said:


> Karl is that you????


No not Karl. Plus he was a pansy.

Just looking at my drop chart for my 30-.06 I get 37 inches of drop at 500 yards.
I would get a good turret scope and put it on anything that goes bang.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

What kind of elk are we talking. Big difference between Spikes and 8 year old bulls. Even cows and bulls.


-DallanC


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

.338 Edge with a 300 gr grain Berger going 3000 fps, because overkill is underrated.


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

```

```



MuscleWhitefish said:


> .338 Edge with a 300 gr grain Berger going 3000 fps, because overkill is underrated.


I bet another guy on here will agree with this assessment...

How is our resident Alaskan doing anyhow?


----------



## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I'll bite. 

I shot a bull square in the shoulder this fall with a 168 gr Accubond LR from a 7RM. Bullet broke his shoulder but never made it into his chest cavity. I was able to put another in him and finish the job, but I think I want to step up in caliber next year. 

I'm thinking 300 RUM with a 215-230 gr or 338 RUM or Edge with 285+gr.


----------



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

OK, where are all you.."well He**, a .223's plenty, it's all about shot placement" guys...yeah, right! I'll take a big caliber...338... every time for elk at any range.


----------



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

7mm Rem Mag loaded with a good quality, bonded projectile should do the trick. That’s what I’d use because it’s what I have.


----------



## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

I think any solid big game round would work at 500 yards, more important is the bullet used. That said, I'll stay on topic and go with a .308. If I really wanted something beefier, I'd go with a .300 WSM or .325 WSM.


----------



## deljoshua (Jul 29, 2013)

300 Remington ultra magnum, 180 grain accubond moving at 3350 FPS.


----------



## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Springville Shooter said:


> Anything in 7MM, 30 Cal, or 338 that will launch a 160-225 grain bullet at 3000+ fps. There are many others but this parameter range should offer you at least 20-30 options. My personal choice would be a hot 7MM. The universal answer would probably be the 300 Win.--------SS


this about covers it. i'd prefer the 7mm on that list due to the external ballistics and reduced drop compared to a 30 caliber. in truth, i only have one 7mm left since my 270 wsm is so similar. though, the projectile selection and weights are less than that of a 7mm.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

DallanC said:


> What kind of elk are we talking. Big difference between Spikes and 8 year old bulls. Even cows and bulls.
> 
> -DallanC


op = bull elk of a lifetime


----------



## ZEKESMAN (Sep 14, 2007)

waspocrew said:


> I'll bite.
> 
> I shot a bull square in the shoulder this fall with a 168 gr Accubond LR from a 7RM. Bullet broke his shoulder but never made it into his chest cavity. I was able to put another in him and finish the job, but I think I want to step up in caliber next year.
> 
> I'm thinking 300 RUM with a 215-230 gr or 338 RUM or Edge with 285+gr.


You will find lots of people talking about that bullet blowing up when it hits bone. Stick with a partition or Trophy Bonded. Vic


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

LostLouisianian said:


> op = bull elk of a lifetime


OOps, I missed that.

For my bull of a lifetime, the 300gr XTP out of my 50cal Muzzleloader dropped him on his ass in a single shot. Big hole in one side, bigger hole going out the other. Lots of broken bones in between.

-DallanC


----------



## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

my .375 ruger was still dead on at 260 with 235 grain. id try at 500 if I had to I guess


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

If you are only talking about 500 yards we may not need to talk about the really serious long range cartridges, but if you want to step up the distance...
6.5x284 at 740 yards 




6.5 Creedmoor at 603 yards 



Numerous more on Long Range Shooters of Utah page on facebook of much farther and equally as lethal shots.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

A 6.5 Creed on an elk at 500 yards???? I just don't think I would feel ethical doing that.


----------



## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

Let's see," I love the pure power and energy of the big bores"
I own a 505 Gibbs 600 Gr. sledge hammer, nah. 470 Nitro double,400 gr. Sledge hammer, Nah, 416 Rem 400 gr sledge hammer, No not that one either, 378 Weatherby 270 gr Partion AWESOME Now this is the rifle & cal that I would choose If we are only allowed to have one.. 375 H&H 300GR. Not at that Range, 340 Weatherby 210 gr Nosler, an AWESOME 2nd Choice, 300, Weatherby 220 gr nosler, Backup African Plains Set up, 3rd choice our main go to Rifles 300 Win Mag 180gr Trophy bonded. My wife and myself have killed 7 Bulls above 370 with this combination and my Twin daughters have 2 bulls above 360 with this combo. 150 gr silvertip 30.06 not at that range, 270 win 130 gr silvertip not at that range,300 Savage not at all with any load, 257 Weatherby 110 or 90 nosler, but not at that range on a big bull, 308 not at that range( no down Range Energy, Needs to do more than poke holes in Paper" I wouldn't even consider the 243 my wife killed her first bull with one but under 150 yards, 6 MM my youngest Daughter killed a 5x6 Bull with 90gr nosler on her ninth Birthday, filmed for T.V at 35 yards. 30-30, 38-55, no chance in Hell, 22-250 has Killed quite a few cow elk in the hay Fields at under 150 yards, (Heart and Lungs turn to jello)

So AFTER MUCH THOUGHT AND DELIBERATION 
this is how I would break down and choose the top 4 all by my personal experience, and by what I own. Ranked By my comfort zone on a Big bull elk at 500 yrds + with more than enough energy to let the air out of him

1st-choice 378 Weatherby 270 gr Partion,
2nd-choice 340 Weatherby 210 gr Partion,
3rd-choice 300 Win mag 180 gr Trophy Bonded (Personal PREFERENCE over the
300 Weatherby) 
4th-choice 300 Weatherby 220 gr Trophy bonded

I think I need to Discuss with my wife that this is WHY I NEED a 375 ultra mag or a 338 ultra mag, or even a 300 ultra mag again like my brother in law has( I sold him mine) and he praises it to the top of the mountain a back ( with his special recipe load )

So Many Calibers, so Little time to try them all out .... Remember that at certain angles your bullet might have to go thru a bale of hay that is in the stomach of the bull, if he moves, wind, angle, ect........


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> A 6.5 Creed on an elk at 500 yards???? I just don't think I would feel ethical doing that.


Did you watch those two videos? I think the elk felt dead rather quickly? Did you check out the FB page mentioned? They are taking hundreds of them at distance every season. Just to beat the dead horse cliché, a well placed shot...the long range guys love the 6.5 in the 140 grain due to the excellent BC and SD.


----------



## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

And what happens with a not so well placed shot with it, which most people do at that range including me.


----------



## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

7MM RELOADED said:


> And what happens with a not so well placed shot with it, which most people do at that range including me.


Simple solution...get closer or don't shoot.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

7MM RELOADED said:


> And what happens with a not so well placed shot with it, which most people do at that range including me.





gdog said:


> Simple solution...get closer or don't shoot.


But the ones shooting those long range shots don't want to get closer and a not so well placed shot will happen. All that elk needs to do is to take a step when you don't expect it and instead of a heart lung shot you now have a gut shot elk to put down and deal with.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

I would love to see a spreadsheet of the energy of different calibers at 500 yards. I would suspect there is a huge difference in the ones mentioned here.


----------



## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Critter said:


> But the ones shooting those long range shots don't want to get closer and a not so well placed shot will happen. All that elk needs to do is to take a step when you don't expect it and instead of a heart lung shot you now have a gut shot elk to put down and deal with.


Maybe I'm missing your point...but what difference does a 6.5, 7 or 30 make when you hit it in the guts?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Just that a bad shot is a bad shot no matter what the caliber of the rifle is. But it is more likely on a 1000 yard shot than it is on a 200 yard shot.


----------



## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

LostLouisianian said:


> A 6.5 Creed on an elk at 500 yards???? I just don't think I would feel ethical doing that.


You realize that a 6.5 Creedmoor loaded with a 130 VLD at 2800 at the muzzle still maintains ~1365 foot pounds of energy at 500 yards, right?

That's nearly 3 times the energy that a .54 caliber round ball has at a hundred yards (who knows how many elk have been killed in the history of the west by a round ball fired from a .50 or .54) and nearly the same amount of energy that a 30-30 has at 100 yards pushing a 150 grain (once again, who knows how many elk fell victim to the old 30-30)?

Find a rifle you shoot well, a bullet that does what you want it to do (i.e. dump all its energy in the animal, maintain energy to get a pass through), and go chase that bull of a lifetime! As much as the internet wants people to believe, elk are not armor plated tanks.

RANT OVER!

My choices - in no certain order - 6.5 Creedmoor, .270 WSM, or 7 mag. Loaded with the right bullet, and placed right behind the shoulder, no elk would walk away from either of the three calibers listed above.


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> I would love to see a spreadsheet of the energy of different calibers at 500 yards. I would suspect there is a huge difference in the ones mentioned here.


Good question, let me see Dallin's ballistics chart tells us-both right columns are @500 yards:
Cartridge Bullet Drop Energy 
243  95 59" 931 ft/lbs
6.5 Creed 140 67" 1,425 (using Berger's g1 BC of .606)
6.5 Creed 127 70" 1.090 (Using Barnes BC of .468, my favorite load)
270 140 63" 1,364
308 150 80" 891 
30-06 150 74" 962
300 Win 150 59" 1,201
338 RUM 225 69" 2,110
I analyze figures as my profession, but i think the numbers speak for themselves here. 
Ill throw a bone to Loke, even the old 270 isn't looking too bad. 
I think two factors arent really shown above-the light recoil of the 6.5's tend to make one shoot more accurately with no thoughts of ever flinching, no one will admit, but we do. I think that is one more factor that makes it shoot more accurately. The energy figures are all pretty similar or at least to say there is no issue here at 500 yards in being superior to all of the .30 cal cartridges.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

My buddy killed his late Wasatch bull this year shooting 7mm with a 162 grain ELD-X at ~595 yards. One shot, the bull maybe took two steps, and was no longer breathing within about 10 or 11 seconds after impact. I'd say that combo qualifies for the OP's question. 

Anyone else notice the position of the bull on the first shot in the first video? Seemed like a poorly timed shot, I'm glad he missed on that one.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Huge29 said:


> Good question, let me see Dallin's ballistics chart tells us-both right columns are @500 yards:
> Cartridge Bullet Drop Energy
> 243 95 59" 931 ft/lbs
> 6.5 Creed 140 67" 1,425 (using Berger's g1 BC of .606)
> ...


What am I missing... the creed has more energy than a .300 winmag at 500 yards???? Uh better check that calculator again.


----------



## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

I was thinking the same thing, the 300 Win shoots flatter, and with what bullet are you comparing 

Also what about.........

340 Weatherby, 210 gr Nosler 
along with the 378 weatherby, 270 gr Nosler,


When they hit at 200 yards plus ( Out of normal range of the big stoppers) 

"HELL AWAKENS AND CAPE BUFFALO CRY " Especially THE 378 

Why not the 30-378 Weatherby ????? I would think that that is the king of the mountain, (I don't have one of those yet, but I am working on it)


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> What am I missing... the creed has more energy than a .300 winmag at 500 yards???? Uh better check that calculator again.


Look it up, you tell me. http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=pointblank Im sure that there are other charts out there, see what you can find. 
The biggest difference just like the two 6.5 loads is the BC, which is what many state as its best feature.


----------



## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

Designed to replace the 375 Weatherby Magnum, deep penetration and bone smashing power are the calling cards of the 378. Its massive case holds so much powder that Federal designed its super-hot 215 primer to handle the load. Roy Weatherby’s 378 delivers 34 percent more energy at the muzzle than the powerful 375 H&H Magnum. Since 1955, the 378 has become one of the world’s most popular cartridges for the largest of big game animals.

BALLISTICS

VELOCITY

Bullet Type	Ballistic Coefficient	@ Muzzle	100 Yards	200 Yards	300 Yards	400 Yards	500 Yards
270 Grain Spire Point	0.380	3180	2921	2677	2445	2225	2017
270 Grain TSX	0.326	3060	2767	2493	2235	1992	1767
300 Grain Round Nose Expanding	0.250	2925	2558	2220	1908	1627	1383
300 Grain Full Metal Jacket	0.275	2925	2591	2280	1991	1725	1489
ENERGY

Bullet Type	Ballistic Coefficient	@ Muzzle	100 Yards	200 Yards	300 Yards	400 Yards	500 Yards
270 Grain Spire Point	0.380	6062	5115	4295	3583	2968	2438
270 Grain TSX	0.326	5613	4591	3726	2994	2380	1871
300 Grain Round Nose Expanding	0.250	5699	4360	3283	2424	1764	1274
300 Grain Full Metal Jacket	0.275	5699	4470	3461	2640	1983	1476
TRAJECTORY

Bullet Type	Ballistic Coefficient	100 Yards	200 Yards	300 Yards	400 Yards	500 Yards
270 Grain Spire Point	0.380	1.3	0.0	-6.1	-18.1	-37.1
270 Grain TSX	0.326	1.3	0.0	-6.2	-17.9	-36.1
300 Grain Round Nose Expanding	0.250	1.9	0.0	-9.0	-27.8	-60.0
300 Grain Full Metal Jacket	0.275	1.8	0.0	-8.6	-26.1	-55.4

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. Abraham Lincoln"


----------



## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

Introduced in 1963, the 340 Weatherby was designed as a response to the 338 Winchester Mag. However, Roy took advantage of the longer case to pack in more powder for greater velocity. And, it shoots heavier 338 bullets at higher velocities as well – a decidedly powerful combination. Ideally suited for animals the size of elk or larger, the 340 can also be used by deer hunters with lighter bullet weights.

BALLISTICS

VELOCITY

Bullet Type	Ballistic Coefficient	@ Muzzle	100 Yards	200 Yards	300 Yards	400 Yards	500 Yards
225 Grain Spire Point	0.397	3066	2824	2595	2377	2170	1973
225 Grain TTSX	0.514	2970	2726	2495	2276	3068	1871
250 Grain Spire Point	0.431	2963	2745	2537	2338	2149	1968
250 Grain Partition	0.473	2941	2743	2553	2371	2197	2029
ENERGY

Bullet Type	Ballistic Coefficient	@ Muzzle	100 Yards	200 Yards	300 Yards	400 Yards	500 Yards
225 Grain Spire Point	0.397	4696	3984	3364	2822	2352	1944
225 Grain TTSX	0.514	4408	3714	3111	2588	2136	1749
250 Grain Spire Point	0.431	4873	4182	3572	3035	2563	2150
250 Grain Partition	0.473	4801	4176	3618	3120	2678	2286

TRAJECTORY

Bullet Type	Ballistic Coefficient	100 Yards	200 Yards	300 Yards	400 Yards	500 Yards
225 Grain Spire Point	0.397	3.6	4.4	0.0	-10.7	-28.6
225 Grain TTSX	0.514	4.0	4.8	0.0	-11.5	-31.2
250 Grain Spire Point	0.431	3.9	4.6	0.0	-11.1	-29.6
250 Grain Partition	0.473	3.9	4.6	0.0	-10.9	-28.9

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. Abraham Lincoln"


----------



## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

Initially a wildcat cartridge developed by Roy Weatherby in 1959 at the request of the United States Army. This white-hot cartridge is based on the 378 necked down to 30 caliber and packed with powder. Originally billed as the world’s fastest 30 caliber cartridge, it will push a 30 caliber bullet 3,500 feet per second. Reintroduced as a Weatherby production cartridge in 1996.

BALLISTICS

VELOCITY

Bullet Type	Ballistic Coefficient	@ Muzzle	100 Yards	200 Yards	300 Yards	400 Yards	500 Yards
165 Grain TTSX	0.442	3450	3186	2937	2702	2479	2266
165 Grain Ballistic Tip	0.475	3500	3275	3062	2859	2665	2480
180 Grain Ballistic Tip	0.507	3420	3213	3015	2826	2645	2471
180 Grain Accubond	0.507	3420	3213	3015	2826	2645	2471
180 Grain TTSX	0.484	3360	3132	2916	2709	2513	2324
200 Grain Partition	0.481	3160	2955	2759	2572	2392	2220
ENERGY

Bullet Type	Ballistic Coefficient	@ Muzzle	100 Yards	200 Yards	300 Yards	400 Yards	500 Yards
165 Grain TTSX	0.442	4362	3719	3161	2675	2251	1882
165 Grain Ballistic Tip	0.475	4488	3930	3435	2995	2603	2253
180 Grain Ballistic Tip	0.507	4676	4126	3634	3193	2797	2441
180 Grain Accubond	0.507	4676	4126	3634	3193	2797	2441
180 Grain TTSX	0.484	4513	3921	3398	2935	3524	2160
200 Grain Partition	0.481	4434	3877	3381	2938	3541	2188
TRAJECTORY

Bullet Type	Ballistic Coefficient	100 Yards	200 Yards	300 Yards	400 Yards	500 Yards
165 Grain TTSX	0.442	2.4	3.1	0.0	-7.4	-19.6
165 Grain Ballistic Tip	0.475	2.4	3.0	0.0	-7.4	-19.5
180 Grain Ballistic Tip	0.507	2.5	3.1	0.0	-7.5	-20.0
180 Grain Accubond	0.507	2.5	3.1	0.0	-7.5	-20.0
180 Grain TTSX	0.484	2.7	3.4	0.0	-8.1	-21.8
200 Grain Partition	0.481	3.2	3.9	0.0	-9.1	-24.3

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. Abraham Lincoln"


----------



## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

I thought we were talking BIG ELK AND WHAT COULD GET THE JOB DONE AT 500 YRDS PLUS


----------



## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Huge29 said:


> Good question, let me see Dallin's ballistics chart tells us-both right columns are @500 yards:
> Cartridge Bullet Drop Energy
> 243 95 59" 931 ft/lbs
> 6.5 Creed 140 67" 1,425 (using Berger's g1 BC of .606)
> ...


 I would have to choose the 270 win. from this chart.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Huge29 said:


> Look it up, you tell me. http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=pointblank Im sure that there are other charts out there, see what you can find.
> The biggest difference just like the two 6.5 loads is the BC, which is what many state as its best feature.


Could you re run the calculation on the .300 WM using the Berger 210 VLD .308 bullet? It is Berger #30515. It's a 210 GR VLD Hunting bullet with similar characteristics to the Creed bullet you plugged in. This gives more of an apples to apples comparison instead of an apples to grapes comparison.

.308 caliber projectile
210 gr VLD Hunting	G1BC 0.625	G7BC 0.320	G7 Form Factor 0.988	Twist 1:10″	PN-30515

6.5 CM bullet =
140 gr Elite Hunter	G1BC 0.606	G7BC 0.310	G7 Form Factor 0.926	Twist 1:8″	PN 26552

Also on Berger's site the 7MM has several projectiles with higher BC than the 6.5CM. I have to wonder what the 7MM Rem Mag would look like with 175 or 180 gr Berger's with the higher BC ( .656 & .673 respectively) than either of the two above calibers. The 195 gr Berger in 7MM has a whopping BC of .755!


----------



## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

"Formula One cartridge"

Weatherby's new magnum is the biggest, fastest 6.5mm cartridge in the world. You could call it a "Formula One" cartridge.

Named the 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum, the new hot-rod round is simply the .300 Weatherby Magnum necked down to 6.5mm (0.264 inch).

Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/the-6-5-300-weatherby-magnum

"At my home elevation of 5,050 feet and in 70-degree temperatures, when sighted-in at 200 yards, the 130-grain Scirocco II drops 4.2 inches at 300 yards, 12.3 inches at 400 yards, and 24.7 inches at 500 yards, where it is still zipping along at 2,725 fps and packing 2,143 ft-lbs of energy."

That's darned near as much speed and energy as the popular 6.5 Creedmoor has at the muzzle.


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

*they sell meat at the grocery store*



gdog said:


> .256 Newton


with open sights?


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Natural Born Killer said:


> "Formula One cartridge"
> 
> Weatherby's new magnum is the biggest, fastest 6.5mm cartridge in the world. You could call it a "Formula One" cartridge.
> 
> ...


Ahem, we're talking ELK not Rhino's !!!! Good googly moogly!


----------

