# Anybody else starting to think it's time to head on out of Utah?



## colorcountrygunner

Sorry for the whining, maybe somewhat political thread, but is anybody else just getting tired of this place? This push for unchecked economic growth at the expense of traffic, horrible air quality, endless urban sprawl, ridiculous housing costs and many other thing that factor in for a good quality of life for the people here just have me feeling down on the place. 

Then of course if you're a hunter or fisherman things reaaaaaallllyyyy are starting to suck now. Seems like on the hunting and fishing facebook pages all you see is people complaining about the out of control crowds that are so ubiquitous to all of our mountains and lakes now. There's nowhere to get away from it. In no time at all gs bull elk tags have gone from not even selling out at all, to selling out but giving you a long time to pick one up, to selling out on the first **** day and having to fight through ungodly server traffic to pick one up. The recent post here showing the draw odds for antlerless seemed to be very disheartening for a lot of people. If you told me it's gonna get worse before it gets better I would at least find consolation in knowing that it might potentially get better down the road. But we all know it's not gonna get better. It's gonna get progressively worse until we wonder if it's even worth the headache anymore.

The things that were great about Utah such as a smaller population and a low cost of living are now rapidly moving in the other direction. It's fun to point the finger and be angry at Californians, but can us Utards really put all the blame on them when we vote for clowns like Herbert and his cronies who wanted this "awesome economic growth" that actually does very little to benefit most Utahans? Can we really put all the blame on Californians for making this place crowded when so many of us are hellbent on having umpteen kids and then their kids have umpteen kids and then their kids....you get the point. 

I feel fortunate to have gotten into a house when I did because the house that I live in would be out of reach for me to be able to afford if I were trying to buy it now. Honestly, I'm starting to entertain the idea of using all this ridiculousness to my advantage and if home values continue shooting to the moon I may consider selling at some point down the road and hopefully having enough equity to buy (or lightly finance) a home in some flyover state with a healthy whitetail population. In addition to building home equity I'm also working loads of overtime and trying to pay down all non-mortgage related debt as fast as possible and save save save invest invest invest. If gs archery elk tags haven't turned into a once in every 5 year draw type deal I will still visit Utah for a week or so in September and hunt archery elk on the family place, then head back home to chase whitetails in November! 

It's likely that this big idea of mine will never go anywhere, but then again it might. Honestly, my whole point in making this thread is just because I'm curious how many other people feel the same way I do and getting to hear your take on it. Or if you have a more positive outlook let's hear your take as well. I don't mean to come off as too disparaging of Utah and its people. All my family is here and it's "home" but a lot of things have changed to make it feel a lot less like home. I never thought I would want to leave Utah, but now it would feel a lot less like leaving Utah and more like leaving California Lite.


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## Lone_Hunter

If it' were not for a couple ties that bind, I'd have already left. Preferably some to suburb out of Anchorage of Fairbanks. 
I saw the writing on the wall awhile ago. Mainly because with what is going on to Utah, i've already seen this song and dance.
Posted my "unplugged" thoughts on this back in January, no need to repeat myself.

https://utahwildlife.net/forum/2158277-post62.html


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## Fowlmouth

We are in the same boat. Our house has doubled in price since we bought in 2008, and we want out. I wouldn't base my decision to move solely on hunting and fishing opportunities though, My wife is from Southern Utah (Parowan) and we have considered going back to the surrounding area, but there is a lot of growth there now as well. I'm not sure surrounding states are an option either, with the exception of Wyoming. They all appear to be facing major growth too. I believe there are opportunities in the Mid-West or Plains areas, but taking that leap of faith is hard to do for us.


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## Critter

Anymore you will find that no matter where you go that that wack jobs have also found it and are working on changing it to their way of thinking. 

When I moved to Colorado it was a great place, that is until the folks from California started moving in and changing it to what they left. Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana are in the same boat. Alaska will also follow.


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## Lone_Hunter

I think covid has been driving a lot of people out of the west coast. Formerly "fly over states" have become appealing to these people. It's not just california, it's washington and oregon transplants that we are being inundated up to our eyeballs with.


At least we aren't being hit as hard as Texas. Idaho might have it worse then us as awell, but I don't they have anything like silicon slopes aggravating things either.


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## colorcountrygunner

Fowlmouth said:


> We are in the same boat. Our house has doubled in price since we bought in 2008, and we want out. I wouldn't base my decision to move solely on hunting and fishing opportunities though, My wife is from Southern Utah (Parowan) and we have considered going back to the surrounding area, but there is a lot of growth there now as well. I'm not sure surrounding states are an option either, with the exception of Wyoming. They all appear to be facing major growth too. I believe there are opportunities in the Mid-West or Plains areas, but taking that leap of faith is hard to do for us.


Oh, believe you me my decision isn't based solely on the hunting. As far as that goes I actually have it much better than most here with my family owning some ground with some good hunting on it. Even that is falling apart to a certain degree though. I'm from the same area as your wife (Cedar City) and I have been wanting to get back there ever since I moved up north, but that end of the state is getting raped and pillaged as well. Every time I go to Cedar City I'm gobsmacked at all the new housing coming up. I'm jealous that you bought all the way back in 2008. That puts you in a VERY good position right now should you decide to relocate to a cheaper area. Best of luck! If you do decide to take that leap of faith maybe we'll be neighbors out in Missouri! Or Iowa, or Arkansas or wherever.


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## colorcountrygunner

Critter said:


> Anymore you will find that no matter where you go that that wack jobs have also found it and are working on changing it to their way of thinking.
> 
> When I moved to Colorado it was a great place, that is until the folks from California started moving in and changing it to what they left. Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana are in the same boat. Alaska will also follow.


I can't believe we have these (BLM) Burn Loot Murder clowns playing in the streets and shooting people 10 minutes from where I live. I always thought crap like that was some blue state big city BS that only happened far away from me. Hopefully Elon Musk gets his crap together and starts colonizing Mars soon. Is there any good hunting on Mars?

Anyway, if there is some last bastion of good hunting, affordable living and sane people somewhere on the planet that can hold out another 40 or 50 years for me to finish my life out I will do whatever it takes to go there!


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## Lone_Hunter

Critter said:


> When I moved to Colorado it was a great place, that is until the folks from California started moving in and changing it to what they left.


Colorado has been the poster child of what happens when you have large amounts of people from one area, move into another. When people move in a trickle, they have time to assimilate into the local culture. When people move in mass numbers, they make alcoves for themselves, and hang out with people who are just like them. It makes the transition easier, however, because they are around people who are just like them, they don't assimilate.

Ive seen it first hand at a couple of dinner gatherings. The instant someone there hears I used to live in California, they suddenly go from sitting quietly in a corner, to wanting to be my new best friend, when I honestly don't want to have anything to do with them. Picture that on a large scale. It's how things go to crap.


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## colorcountrygunner

Lone_Hunter said:


> If it' were not for a couple ties that bind, I'd have already left. Preferably some to suburb out of Anchorage of Fairbanks.
> I saw the writing on the wall awhile ago. Mainly because with what is going on to Utah, i've already seen this song and dance.
> Posted my "unplugged" thoughts on this back in January, no need to repeat myself.
> 
> https://utahwildlife.net/forum/2158277-post62.html


I just went and read your post on that and it sounds like your thoughts are my thoughts right to a "T". It's quite chilling to get that insider perspective of yours and to see how quickly it is changing and how bad it will likely be.


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## Critter

Lone_Hunter said:


> I think covid has been driving a lot of people out of the west coast. Formerly "fly over states" have become appealing to these people. It's not just california, it's washington and oregon transplants that we are being inundated up to our eyeballs with.


It's been going on for a lot longer than that, think the last 30-40 years.


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## backcountry

Cedar is going nuts right now. Housing prices are definitely over-inflated. We only bought our house 3.5 years ago and it's risen in value 55%, on the low end of estimates (Zillow is often way off). Glad we bought when we did as we'd be priced out like so many fellow Americans.

Even Cedar is experiencing the worst part of the cycle: large swaths of land subdivided by developers. But locals have no room to complain as it's their family's lands they are selling to be developed. We've been here for 15+years now and the speed of this is faster than what helped fuel the last bubble. 

A state like Utah can't stay static long as evidenced by just about every other western state right now. People love to blame Californians but they are just scape goats. Our economy requires you to move around (on average) to be safely middle class and that leads to change. I know more east coast transplants here than Californians (myself included). 

Add in tourism: you can't advertise in every method possible for years and not expect people to see the appeal of living next to it instead of visiting occasionally. Add in overly friendly business tax incentives: relocating employees. 

But we also can't forget: Utah has one of the highest birth rate in the nation. Which is a double whammy as much of the country isn't even at replacement levels of birth. Last data shows us tied for 2nd in our birthrate after years of being pretty high. Change is also driven by generation turnover.

I envy anyone who can tolerate moving to the Midwest. My cousins bought homes 2-3 times as big as what we did for less money. But job outlook sucks there in many ways. And the humidity is autrocious. 

We'll be here for a while. We'll likely have to move in the next 5-8 years as my wife has nowhere to go vertically in her career locally. When we do move we'll likely not find the situation much different anywhere that is truly appealing and has economic options. That is until we can retire but that's decades off.


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## Lone_Hunter

Critter said:


> It's been going on for a lot longer than that, think the last 30-40 years.


I don't doubt you. I'm just saying from what i've seen, the last 4 years or so, i'd describe being closer to a "fevered pitch". After Covid, it's that fevered pitch, X 1.5. Drove home from scouting some of the extended archery area east of SLC, and I had a whoooollllee lot of CA tags passing me, driving like mario andretti.


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## Fowlmouth

colorcountrygunner said:


> Oh, I'm jealous that you bought all the way back in 2008. That puts you in a VERY good position right now should you decide to relocate to a cheaper area. Best of luck! If you do decide to take that leap of faith maybe we'll be neighbors out in Missouri! Or Iowa, or Arkansas or wherever.


Bought our first house new in 2001, sold it during the recession for almost double, then bought the new constructed house we are in now in 2008. Yeah, it's making the decision to move somewhere else very easy. I would love to be mortgage free! The only way I see doing that right now, and staying in Utah would be downsizing the house, and possibly getting an older home. That's just not all that appealing to me knowing we could get at least the same size home and more property outside of Utah.


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## Critter

You also have to look at the fact that if you do move to a area where housing and land is cheaper so is the cost of living and the wages reflect that..

A friend of mine retired, sold his home and moved to Kentucky. Bought around 100 acres of wooded lands with a pond and a creek flowing through it and paid cash. It worked for him. But one time when he came back he said that his wife was having a hard time finding a job that paid what she wanted to be paid which was around what she was got paid before they sold their home. It just wasn't going to happen in Kentucky.


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## taxidermist

I don't think it really matters where you head out of Utah, it's all about the same wherever you wind up. 


If your self employed or are able to work from home (securities license) helping the rich become richer, along with yourself, I believe your better off finding that sweet spot to call home. Unfortunately, most folks have to be in the city for the income. Try to find a good paying job in Montana for example, not a ton of them around and the few that are available are usually in the city's.


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## Catherder

I will apologize in advance just in case I'm a little surly. I had to come home early from a camping trip due to mechanical issues.  (but now I have time to respond and blow off steam.) 

I can certainly understand the sentiment to look for greener pastures. I think it is human nature to some extent. Several points have been made on particulars. I will throw in my 2 cents. 

1. Growth; A politician running for office would have a hard time winning on a campaign of less growth. Housing development provides a ton of jobs. All economies benefit from more jobs. So don't expect development to slow much unless the general economy goes in the tank. (possible) That inevitably leads to more congestion and strain on resources. The areas in the country which don't have growth don't have very good economies either and the prospect of good employment and decent services are equally sparse. In my adult life, I've lived in Colorado, Nevada and back here. I lived through the development explosions in the Front Range and Las Vegas. I sold my Vegas house at the right time to really capitalize on the boom and help us settle in a better situation here. Housing growth is the ultimate double edged sword which requires intelligent stewardship to maintain a desirable quality of life. 

2. Natural resources/recreation; I will maintain that Utah still has some top tier outdoor recreation opportunities. Overall, I think our fishing here is still pretty good. It is common for us to gripe about the hunting tag game this time of year, but I think we are doing as well as we can with the population issues we are burdened with. It seemed dang near impossible to draw tags when I lived in Nevada. There just weren't the opportunities. A few states are better than us but many are much worse. Camping, hiking, OHV, climbing/canyoneering and many other outdoor pursuits are still top tier. 

Now, much of our premier outdoor opportunities are dependent on access to public lands. We currently have a large contingent of politicians that want to wrest control of these lands and sell much of them off. The devastation this would have to our outdoor lifestyle and economy cannot be underestimated. Furthermore, many of the people that want the land sold the most, (poor rural citizens) would be most harmed by the changes. Fighting to keep public lands public is the single most important issue outdoor users can advocate for to maintain doing the things we love to do. 

As for the stewardship of public lands, (IMO) the ideal way for the lands to be administered requires a "moderate" approach balancing some sustainable economic activity, along with appropriate protections and management. Sadly, in our hyper partisan political climate, all we get are extreme positions from the right and the left, resulting in "drill baby drill" and unrestrained exploitation or overly aggressive protections the other way. Ugh. 

3. Perception; I think Utah is protected ever so slightly from Colorado level growth by the perception that we are all still a bunch of religious fanatics who require women to wear those polygamist dresses. For the purposes of the discussion, this may be a good thing as it may keep a few folks away. However, once someone stays here for any length of time, or really looks into things a bit, they realize that isn't the case. There are no secrets anymore in the information age. 

4. Where would you go? For me, my ideal would be Heber valley as it is closest to the places I love the most. However, I doubt my wife could be persuaded. I couldn't stand to live in the midwest. No friggin mountains. A couple of siblings in law live in Missouri and Indiana. The state bird of Missouri is the mosquito. Indiana was nicer but it was underwhelming. The coolest thing there were fireflies, and I imagine they would quickly lose their novelty. Alaska works for some but is not for everyone. Wyoming, Montana? 
Maybe, but the same processes are happening there too. 

I guess each person is different, so one should do what will make them happy, but at least for me, right now, we still measure favorably, in spite of many challenges.


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## Clarq

I think about leaving Utah all the time. I've been house shopping for about a year now, and it's been constantly demoralizing.

In February, I offered $10k above asking price on a fixer-upper in a great neighborhood. I lost the bidding war in an epic fashion - the offer that was accepted was about $20k above mine. I know plenty of other shoppers who have had similar experiences. I've also missed out on several potential buys because I didn't react fast enough - some houses I've looked into have sold within 12 hours of listing.

It really makes me question myself when I have to fight tooth and nail for the opportunity to sell my soul/income for 30 years, in exchange for 6,500 square feet of earth and a few rooms to sleep in. I don't see it getting better any time soon. Prices are going up faster than I can save money. 

Problem is, I was dumb enough to pick a career with few prospects outside of metro centers. Work-from-home opportunities exist, but they tend to limit the growth of one's career. Maybe it would be a worthwhile tradeoff.

All that said, I still really like it here. The waterfowl hunting opportunities I have would be very hard to leave. Same with the mountains and the other places I've come to know and love. It's the best feeling in the world to wake up on a Saturday morning with a full tank of gas, and be within a short driving distance of endless possibilities for fun and adventure. There's no reason anyone should be bored of this place.

Not sure I'll ever have the guts to say goodbye to this place... but it's fun to vent once in awhile, I guess. :mrgreen:


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## Vanilla

Utah sucks! Everyone should definitely leave. Please, get out as fast as you possibly can!


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## Fowlmouth

The duck hunting would be hard pressed to beat. Northern 
Utah is a waterfowl mecca!


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## johnnycake

Need I say more?


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## Lone_Hunter

Vanilla said:


> Utah sucks! Everyone should definitely leave. Please, get out as fast as you possibly can!


Tell that to all the people moving in over the last 4-5 years. :mrgreen:


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## Vanilla

Last 4-5 years? Ha! Try the last 20! 

When you’re the best stare in the union, this happens. But it’s ruined, so I agree. Everyone should leave!


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## backcountry

Yeah, it's been going on for decades. We always laughed in Moab when I lived there that "In the Spring, Moab turned Green" because of all of the Colorado plates. The number of second and third homes owned in that valley was crazy 15 years ago.


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## Critter

If you haven't been to Moab lately you ought to go see it now.

They are building homes there just as fast as they are down in Arizona


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## colorcountrygunner

Yeah, you guys brings up some good points about the grass not always being greener on the other side and I have considered those things heavily as well. There's a very good chance I'm completely full of chit about leaving this place and I will just enjoy the good, bitch and complain loudly about the bad, and keep on keepin on here. I just can't stand how peopley it's gotten here. Waaay too peopley for my taste. There's just so much to keep me here as well.


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## colorcountrygunner

johnnycake said:


> Need I say more?


I was wondering when you were gonna show up and rub it in!:mrgreen:


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## colorcountrygunner

Clarq said:


> I think about leaving Utah all the time. I've been house shopping for about a year now, and it's been constantly demoralizing.
> 
> In February, I offered $10k above asking price on a fixer-upper in a great neighborhood. I lost the bidding war in an epic fashion - the offer that was accepted was about $20k above mine. I know plenty of other shoppers who have had similar experiences. I've also missed out on several potential buys because I didn't react fast enough - some houses I've looked into have sold within 12 hours of listing.
> 
> It really makes me question myself when I have to fight tooth and nail for the opportunity to sell my soul/income for 30 years, in exchange for 6,500 square feet of earth and a few rooms to sleep in. I don't see it getting better any time soon. Prices are going up faster than I can save money.
> 
> Problem is, I was dumb enough to pick a career with few prospects outside of metro centers. Work-from-home opportunities exist, but they tend to limit the growth of one's career. Maybe it would be a worthwhile tradeoff.
> 
> All that said, I still really like it here. The waterfowl hunting opportunities I have would be very hard to leave. Same with the mountains and the other places I've come to know and love. It's the best feeling in the world to wake up on a Saturday morning with a full tank of gas, and be within a short driving distance of endless possibilities for fun and adventure. There's no reason anyone should be bored of this place.
> 
> Not sure I'll ever have the guts to say goodbye to this place... but it's fun to vent once in awhile, I guess. :mrgreen:


That's rough, man! I feel for you guys trying to get into a place right now as it's gotta be a nightmare. Especially if you don't have some nice deep pockets to outbid the other guy. Maybe you'll get lucky and catch a dip in this crazy market. Who knows?


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## johnnycake

colorcountrygunner said:


> I was wondering when you were gonna show up and rub it in!:mrgreen:


I've always got room in my truck and around my campfire for a twink like you CCG


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## Brettski7

I cane from Louisiana. I’ve been all over the east and slightly Midwest. It is MUCH nicer here. Only other place I would consider would be Texas. But same thing is happening there it’s just a much larger state so it’s not impacting as hard as here. Housing is still a lot more affordable then here, cost of living lower but you have same or higher wages. We probably would have went there had I been offered a job there and not here. But after being here we are thinking more and more of making this our forever home. As someone else said, you are not going to get as much to do anywhere in Midwest of east. We moved here for a better quality of life and while the housing market is absolute crap and way to high it really hasn’t disappointed otherwise. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 2full

Have watched this thread with interest. 
I'm a Cedar boy, Since '73. Attended SUSC.....as it was known then. 

My wife was a Cedar girl. 

It has gotten too big for me. 
I'm looking at highway 89. 
Too far away from the grandkids for Mama. 

Do have her talked into a place in Montana for Summer. Mesquite for winter. 
Have grandkids up there. 
Grandkids here. 

Will sell everything I guess. House, cabin etc.
Bought the house in '90 
It's all paid for. 


I'm done. 

But, I'm keeping my Road Runner. :mrgreen:


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## Lone_Hunter

colorcountrygunner said:


> Yeah, you guys brings up some good points about the grass not always being greener on the other side and I have considered those things heavily as well. There's a very good chance I'm completely full of chit about leaving this place and I will just enjoy the good, bitch and complain loudly about the bad, and keep on keepin on here. I just can't stand how peopley it's gotten here. Waaay too peopley for my taste. There's just so much to keep me here as well.


I think their might be a valid point in that it's starting to get bad everywhere. After I came to Utah, my backup plans were Idaho and Montana. Idaho has become a major destination Californian's, and I don't think Montana has been immune either. I don't hear as much bad news coming out of Montana, but I've heard enough to have the thought that it's not all that rosey there either. Comparatively? Might be better, but for how long? The thing I *think* i've noticed is how urban sprawl and the "me too people" (for lack of a better term) is making some areas that were nice, get a lot more crowded.

I think at this ponit, the only way to REALLY get away from it is in Alaska; if you consider the vast lands it has , you can fit Texas INSIDE Alaska - with a population of about 732,000. That sounds pretty sweet to me. That said, you'd better be ready for harsh winters, and not having all the things your used to - and a higher cost of living as far as how far your dollar will go. Given the conditions, Alaska weeds out alot of people. My wife might be one of them unfortunetly, so I'm probably going to be here awhile. Still, the dream remains.

As an aside, I take this guy with a grain of salt, but he's a OK "news aggregate" now and then. I saw this the other day, and he links to some article about how there's probably going to be or has been, a migratioin of people out of the cities. COVID and riots are probably adding extra incentive.






Now if you'll excuse me, I'm supposed to be finishing my coffee and heading to the central manti to scout for elk today. :mrgreen:


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## High Desert Elk

If anyone is wanting to relocate, don't look at New Mexico. As far as opportunity goes for hunting and fishing, it beats Utah. That is not, however, a plus. The politics right now are horrible.

So, we have a "governor" who is enacting draconian style dictates relative to the COVID 19 dempanic. You cannot "leave" the state without it costing you. You cannot come into the state without it costing you. The cost is a "mandatory" 14 day quarantine. Failure to comply comes with a dollar amount (if you are selected to be made an example of).

200 small businesses (fewer than 500 employees and revenues less than $7.5 million) have closed permanently because of clueless mandates. Any sense of normalcy is suspended indefinitely or until a vaccine is available. Why? Because an emergency health act passed in 2003 gives the governor complete autonomy without any legislative or judicial review or oversight once a public health emergency is declared via executive order. Only the governor can end it via executive order. So, we're stuck until....

This happened because too many liberal wackos transplanted from wherever because of the romanticism of southwest art and culture. The metro area (Rio Grande Corridor) consisting of Santa Fe, Taos, and Albuquerque has doubled in the last decade. The remainder of the state continues to stay pretty rural and "backcountry".

The "governor" also blew through a $2 billion dollar surplus when she took office in 2017. Now, with very little revenue coming into the state those surpluses cannot be reclaimed. The state is dipping into emergency and "rainy day" accounts to make state budgets. The cash cow of the state has always been the energy sector, and now the the ill planned and ill timed Energy Transition Act, revenues will be forever suppressed. There is no manufacturing, there is no tech industry to speak of. The state is the largest employer which is a constant bleeding of non revenue generating jobs. Talk about death by a thousand cuts. 

So, from someone in "bondage" looking out, UT is a great place. But, being in one of the more rural areas, good luck selling a house to relocate at a price to have a similar mortgage. If somebody offered me cash for my house right now at 80% it's value, I'd relocate today somewhere else and hope I can find a job.

The "governor" is MEchelle Lujan Grisham. A top pick for biden's VP running mate. Remember that name. Burn it into your memory. If she is chosen and the biden campaign wins, she will become the POTUS and the remainder of the country on a federal and national level will follow the same path policy wise that NM is doomed to be in -O,--O,-. Right now anyway...


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## colorcountrygunner

So the general consensus of this thread is it is turning into dog sh*! everywhere. There's nowhere left to run! Let me ask you guys this: if there is such a place to move that has a tolerable mix of good cost of living, decent employment prospects, sane political climate, and last but most importantly good hunting, where do you think it would be? Maybe such a place doesn't exist anymore!


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## APD

colorcountrygunner said:


> So the general consensus of this thread is it is turning into dog sh*! everywhere. There's nowhere left to run! Let me ask you guys this: if there is such a place to move that has a tolerable mix of good cost of living, decent employment prospects, sane political climate, and last but most importantly good hunting, where do you think it would be? Maybe such a place doesn't exist anymore!


when did moderate left/right become the extremists from 30 years ago?

"sane political climate" rules out most places currently. i'm sticking with where i'm at for now but it does help to have a cabin in the woods to live at when it gets like this.


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## Critter

colorcountrygunner said:


> So the general consensus of this thread is it is turning into dog sh*! everywhere. There's nowhere left to run! Let me ask you guys this: if there is such a place to move that has a tolerable mix of good cost of living, decent employment prospects, sane political climate, and last but most importantly good hunting, where do you think it would be? Maybe such a place doesn't exist anymore!


Lots of luck on that one.

I think that a lot of us are looking for the same place, and it it called Oz.....


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## High Desert Elk

Critter said:


> Lots of luck on that one.
> 
> I think that a lot of us are looking for the same place, and it it called Oz.....


For someone living behind an iron curtain, there are a lot of possibilities...

The best fix is for people to stop being obtuse to current issues thinking it's all fluff. It's not. Get out and vote, be vocal about expressing your ideas and opinions, don't apologize for it, stop taking the "high road" on every issue. Most of the time, liberal wackos need to be called out. I have heard millennial 20 somethings say that the concept of communism is liberating. That is why our world is upside down right now. My state is living proof.

Did I mention a 'red flag law' was passed earlier this year as well?


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## Critter

High Desert Elk said:


> For someone living behind an iron curtain, there are a lot of possibilities...
> 
> The best fix is for people to stop being obtuse to current issues thinking it's all fluff. It's not. Get out and vote, be vocal about expressing your ideas and opinions, don't apologize for it, stop taking the "high road" on every issue. Most of the time, liberal wackos need to be called out. I have heard millennial 20 somethings say that the concept of communism is liberating. That is why our world is upside down right now. My state is living proof.
> 
> Did I mention a 'red flag law' was passed earlier this year as well?


You have the same problem in NM as I have here in Colorado. The population centers control what gets passed and what doesn't as far as ballot measures. That is why there is no real trapping here in Colorado along with spring bear hunts or being able to run bears with dogs. That along with a ballot measure that was passed that you now must consume what you shoot. There are a few animals on the list that you don't have to eat but very few. All these ballot issues were passed by the Denver, Boulder, and other liberal strongholds in the state. While I voted on each one of them my vote didn't count for that much because of where I live.

They call Colorado a purple state because of the mixture of red/blue voters. Well I hate to tell a lot of us it is a blue state. Both houses of the legislature are controlled by the liberals along with having a liberal governor for the last 16 or so years with no change in sight. Come this election cycle I am sure that we will loose our one conservative Senator as well. But I can see his problems and why he might not get re-elected just by how he acts. If there was another candidate I would vote for the new guy because of this.

And in the last 10 or so years we have the red flag law, along with tighter gun restrictions on magazines and ownership along with having to pay for a background check when we purchase a firearm. And it is only going to get worse.


----------



## Vanilla

High Desert Elk said:


> If anyone is wanting to relocate, don't look at New Mexico. As far as opportunity goes for hunting and fishing, it beats Utah.


Yeah, NM totally beats Utah for hunting and fishing opportunities. Everyone should go there!


----------



## High Desert Elk

Critter said:


> They call Colorado a purple state because of the mixture of red/blue voters. Well I hate to tell a lot of us it is a blue state. Both houses of the legislature are controlled by the liberals along with having a liberal governor...


Yes, we used to be considered purple as well, and when it was/is there is a decent balance. The last two years have been h...

NM actually had the chance to finally put a conservative into the US Senate that has all the right "qualifications" to win in a blue state. But, alas, typical "red" NM voted for the other primary candidate because they see him on TV doing weather reports.



Vanilla said:


> Yeah, NM totally beats Utah for hunting and fishing opportunities. Everyone should go there!


Only because I know you're trying to be funny I smile


----------



## Vanilla

It may seem funny, but I’m okay with as many Utahns moving to New Mexico as possible. The more going your way the merrier! 


Utah sucks. People should definitely stop moving here.


----------



## middlefork

All I can say is don't let the door hit you on the way out!


----------



## High Desert Elk

Vanilla said:


> It may seem funny, but I'm okay with as many Utahns moving to New Mexico as possible. The more going your way the merrier!
> 
> Utah sucks. People should definitely stop moving here.


As long as we don't pick up the blue problems ya'll have. And, you can keep Romney. He's good for UT...


----------



## backcountry

I heard a rumor that UrinalCake is letting anyone wanting to flee the lower 48 to camp on his land in Alaska. Granted you have to deal with the whims of Thanos and constantly listen to him ramble about bidets.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

johnnycake said:


> I've always got room in my truck and around my campfire for a twink like you CCG


I've read enough of your hunting stories on here to know that I should turn the other direction and run away as fast as I can from an offer like that. But the heart wants what the heart wants, Cake. I need to get an Alaskan fishing trip with Mrs. CCG out of the way before I really get down to business, but then it's time to make it happen!


----------



## colorcountrygunner

2full said:


> Have watched this thread with interest.
> I'm a Cedar boy, Since '73. Attended SUSC.....as it was known then.
> 
> My wife was a Cedar girl.
> 
> It has gotten too big for me.
> I'm looking at highway 89.
> Too far away from the grandkids for Mama.
> 
> Do have her talked into a place in Montana for Summer. Mesquite for winter.
> Have grandkids up there.
> Grandkids here.
> 
> Will sell everything I guess. House, cabin etc.
> Bought the house in '90
> It's all paid for.
> 
> I'm done.
> 
> But, I'm keeping my Road Runner. :mrgreen:


I think you would miss that cabin too much if you sold it. My suggestion would be to keep it as yet another option for a getaway spot and find some semi local guy to keep an eye on the place and keep the elk herd from getting too big during your time away. It will take some looking around on my part for you, but I'm pretty sure I might know a guy!


----------



## colorcountrygunner

middlefork said:


> All I can say is don't let the door hit you on the way out!


Okay, boomer.


----------



## elkunited

I was born in CA but moved to Utah at 9. Grew up here, got married and moved to Idaho for about 5 years. The irony of where I lived in idaho (Coeur d'alene) was most of the locals complained about Californians, yet few people complaining were born and raised there. Most of them were transplants themselves from all over. 

We've been back here in Utah for about 5 years and I still kick myself for not buying then. Coming from Idaho where the houses were a lot cheaper then made buying a house in Utah a difficult decision. 5 years later, there is no way we can afford a house now. We are stuck as renters, but my wife loves Utah way too much. I love it too, but I just want my own **** house/property. But I'll just keep going til I can finally afford one, or try to convince my folks to write theirs to me in the will. 😬


----------



## johnnycake

colorcountrygunner said:


> I've read enough of your hunting stories on here to know that I should turn the other direction and run away as fast as I can from an offer like that. But the heart wants what the heart wants, Cake. I need to get an Alaskan fishing trip with Mrs. CCG out of the way before I really get down to business, but then it's time to make it happen!


Yeah that's probably a fair assessment... But I've got a couple great ideas of places to go and things to chase that I need some willing suckers to give a go! Some of those even involve a saltwater boat and potential fishing before we scale the cliffs from the salt.


----------



## middlefork

colorcountrygunner said:


> Okay, boomer.


Yes and proud of it! It is kind of funny to read what everybody has to say. Been in Utah for 70 years. It's been going down hill for at least 60.


----------



## rtockstein

middlefork said:


> It's been going down hill for at least 60.


Exactly. All the same thoughts and sentiments have existed since the beginning of human kind's consciousness.


----------



## 2full

Your probably right colorcountry, I would miss my cabin. A lot of good times and memories have been made there. 
But the problem is the place to the North of us got sold in the fall of '18. I had a chance to buy it, but decided I was too close to retirement, didn't want to spend the money. Even had the paperwork in hand and filled out. We have everything paid for, and I didn't want to dip into my investments or go into debt. 

Man did I screw up.......this guy is a real jacka$$ it is not possible to even have a civil conversation with him. He's always mad about something. Has been that way with everyone around. Even his family that has a place up there by us won't have anything to do with him. 
He's from out of state, but married a Kanarra girl. 

Oh well......I had a great 25 year run up there. 
All good things must come to an end.


----------



## backcountry

Sorry to hear it, 2Full. It's rough when your place to escape becomes a burden. I hope you find a solution or a new place that provides the same experience.


----------



## Brettski7

colorcountrygunner said:


> So the general consensus of this thread is it is turning into dog sh*! everywhere. There's nowhere left to run! Let me ask you guys this: if there is such a place to move that has a tolerable mix of good cost of living, decent employment prospects, sane political climate, and last but most importantly good hunting, where do you think it would be? Maybe such a place doesn't exist anymore!


Honestly. Texas. We were considering the San Antonio or Austin area. Was looking there for years. For the prices houses are here you could get double the house there. Public land hunting I don't believe is as good though but don't have to deal with this bs draw crap. Has great turkey hunting. Has good deer hunting (whitetail). Has some good duck hunting. Good fishing. Oh and higher wages. It's so large the political impact is very small or non existent from people moving in from Cali etc. still have some decent outdoor activities to do like some off-roading, mountain biking etc. A lot more job prospects than here. Also no state income tax. Yes there are things wrong with there like it's hot (hot here is nothing compared to south hot).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Brettski7

High Desert Elk said:


> For someone living behind an iron curtain, there are a lot of possibilities...
> 
> The best fix is for people to stop being obtuse to current issues thinking it's all fluff. It's not. Get out and vote, be vocal about expressing your ideas and opinions, don't apologize for it, stop taking the "high road" on every issue. Most of the time, liberal wackos need to be called out. I have heard millennial 20 somethings say that the concept of communism is liberating. That is why our world is upside down right now. My state is living proof.
> 
> Did I mention a 'red flag law' was passed earlier this year as well?


Easier said then done when people are being fired for doing what you suggested and going against the grain of main stream media and standing up for what they believe in. Businesses being boycotted for having a differing opinion. Personal information and death threats posted on internet because you have a different opinion.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## colorcountrygunner

middlefork said:


> colorcountrygunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, boomer.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and proud of it! It is kind of funny to read what everybody has to say. Been in Utah for 70 years. It's been going down hill for at least 60.
Click to expand...

 if you're the kind of person that likes green space, being away from crowds and traffic, plentiful hunting opportunity, etc. then Utah really has gone downhill in the past 60 years. That's not really arguable. I'm not sure why someone on a hunting forum who I assume enjoys a lot of the same things I do is so hyper sensitive about this. That's strange to me. Do you feel like I'm picking a fight with Utah culture or the predominant faith or something? If so, drop the persecution complex. That's not what this is about.


----------



## High Desert Elk

Brettski7 said:


> Easier said then done when people are being fired for doing what you suggested and going against the grain of main stream media and standing up for what they believe in. Businesses being boycotted for having a differing opinion. Personal information and death threats posted on internet because you have a different opinion.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Death threats are hollow and empty. Still waiting to see one actually carried through.

Termination? Jobs come and go regardless of what you want.

The ones who complain the most do the least...


----------



## Brettski7

High Desert Elk said:


> Death threats are hollow and empty. Still waiting to see one actually carried through.
> 
> Termination? Jobs come and go regardless of what you want.
> 
> The ones who complain the most do the least...


Lol. Riiiigghhtt. Are you out protesting? What are you doing exactly that you're asking others to do?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## middlefork

colorcountrygunner said:


> if you're the kind of person that likes green space, being away from crowds and traffic, plentiful hunting opportunity, etc. then Utah really has gone downhill in the past 60 years. That's not really arguable. I'm not sure why someone on a hunting forum who I assume enjoys a lot of the same things I do is so hyper sensitive about this. That's strange to me. Do you feel like I'm picking a fight with Utah culture or the predominant faith or something? If so, drop the persecution complex. That's not what this is about.


Sorry I guess I misunderstood your complaints. I've been against huge population growth for many years. But until recently it was driven by internal growth (yes those families that insist on having many kids, and their kids who insist on doing the same).

I tried to quit worrying about others and tried to live the way I believed.

I bought my first house in 1971 for $16,500. I was making $1.25 an hour at the time. There were a few years when things were very tight. I'm sure it is still that way for people. My current house was built in 1973 and by today's standard is barely a starter home for most. But guess what, during the time of the mortgage it became increasingly easier to make that payment and then double down and pay it off early.

Once you have no mortgage it is amazing what you can decide to do with your money. Some like to buy shiny new cars or fancy toys. Others may look around for recreation property to insure the have some buffer from other people. Or they may decide to throw the dice and move to a new location and start all over.

Do whatever you like but growth is a driving factor in almost any states economy.


----------



## backcountry

Agree with Middlefork. Our primary issue will be lack of ability to move vertically for my wife and we can't afford to plateau in her career so early in life. If it weren't for that Cedar is pretty close to ideal.

I say that because everywhere I've lived has experienced this type of change. Growth is going to happen where there are jobs and public lands. Sadly housing prices are going to reflect that, though this current rate is once again unsustainable. 

It's interesting to hear all the complaints about politics. I live in a county that is deep red with a commissioner that has gone full blown Trumpian in his fear mongering. As a moderate purple loving citizen that's not ideal but....I've never lived in a place that actually matched my politics for long. I really don't think that goldilocks combination of sustainable growth, jobs and matching politics exists especially as most people seem to be talking about living in less crowded places which means that population centers elsewhere will still control state politics.

This dilemma is just our modern dilemma. Change is inevitable and we just don't have much control over much outside our households. And here is the irony, everytime we move we help this cycle continue in the new location.


----------



## bowgy

2full said:


> Your probably right colorcountry, I would miss my cabin. A lot of good times and memories have been made there.
> But the problem is the place to the North of us got sold in the fall of '18. I had a chance to buy it, but decided I was too close to retirement, didn't want to spend the money. Even had the paperwork in hand and filled out. We have everything paid for, and I didn't want to dip into my investments or go into debt.
> 
> Man did I screw up.......this guy is a real jacka$$ it is not possible to even have a civil conversation with him. He's always mad about something. Has been that way with everyone around. Even his family that has a place up there by us won't have anything to do with him.
> He's from out of state, but married a Kanarra girl.
> 
> Oh well......I had a great 25 year run up there.
> All good things must come to an end.


That sucks when you have that type of neighbor, I had to deal with a few.
I was trying to find your place on the locator, does your fun neighbor have a male deer as part of his name?

I have to run up there this week and help one of the property owners troubleshoot a problem with their solar.


----------



## Critter

Find out what he drinks and take a 12 pack or a bottle over and welcome him to the area. 

Perhaps he is ticked off because the cabin was his wife's idea and he wants nothing to do with it.


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## 2full

Not sure what his last name is. 
He is the very northwest piece in the subdivision.


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## ridgetop

I think Portland or Seattle would be an awesome place to live right now!
;-)


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## colorcountrygunner

ridgetop said:


> I think Portland or Seattle would be an awesome place to live right now!


 I've heard they have some neighborhood up there called chop or Chaz or chode or something. It looks like quite a peaceful little utopian paradise. A little piece of heaven on earth.


----------



## High Desert Elk

Brettski7 said:


> Lol. Riiiigghhtt. Are you out protesting? What are you doing exactly that you're asking others to do?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are two ways of doing things, hand. You can either cry and whine publicly the way some of the "demonstrators" are, or, you can engage in civil discussion and be aware of what is going on and casting your ballot accordingly.

If someone is silenced for whatever reason, then they are in the wrong forum...


----------



## PBH

I'm surprised with all the talk of Alaska, and even Montana and Idaho, that there hasn't been a single mention of Canada. Sure, it's not America -- but things here in the US are changing pretty quickly. We'll be socialist just like them pretty soon.

If you want wide open spaces, good fishing and hunting opportunities, and small populations....goodness, look at Canada, eh! And it's much cheaper than Alaska. And they're known to be very friendly.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> I'm surprised with all the talk of Alaska, and even Montana and Idaho, that there hasn't been a single mention of Canada. Sure, it's not America -- but things here in the US are changing pretty quickly. We'll be socialist just like them pretty soon.
> 
> If you want wide open spaces, good fishing and hunting opportunities, and small populations....goodness, look at Canada! And it's much cheaper than Alaska. And they're known to be very friendly.


Hmmmm, I played hockey in high school. I'd fit right in. And their covid statistics are fantastic too. -Ov-

For purposes of this forum discussion, I don't think too many of the folks on the forum would be keen on Canada's strict gun laws and while the hunting is good up there, it is considerably more restricted than what we are used to in the states.

You do have a point about the fishing though...............


----------



## johnnycake

Catherder said:


> Hmmmm, I played hockey in high school. I'd fit right in. And their covid statistics are fantastic too. -Ov-
> 
> For purposes of this forum discussion, I don't think too many of the folks on the forum would be keen on Canada's strict gun laws and *while the hunting is good up there, it is considerably more restricted than what we are used to in the states. *
> 
> You do have a point about the fishing though...............


Yeah...methinks me you haven't really looked at hunting opportunities in a lot of Canada.


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## Kwalk3

johnnycake said:


> Yeah...methinks me you haven't really looked at hunting opportunities in a lot of Canada.


I'm assuming he's referencing the gun laws portion, not necessarily the hunting?


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## Catherder

Kwalk3 said:


> I'm assuming he's referencing the gun laws portion, not necessarily the hunting?


yes


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## PBH

Kwalk3 said:


> I'm assuming he's referencing the gun laws portion, not necessarily the hunting?


if it's hunting you're looking for, then the gun laws shouldn't be that big of an issue.

if it's recreational shooting, and just plain ol' american "I want to carry a glock", then you might have some issues with the gun laws.


----------



## Kwalk3

PBH said:


> if it's hunting you're looking for, then the gun laws shouldn't be that big of an issue.
> 
> if it's recreational shooting, and just plain ol' american "I want to carry a glock", then you might have some issues with the gun laws.


Agreed. I'd probably survive just fine in Canada. I don't shoot recreationally much, and mostly bow-hunt. Was just clarifying how I interpreted Catherder's comment.


----------



## backcountry

Envious of anyone who can live that far north year round. 

Canada definitely has a ton to offer. Hard not appreciate how many large swaths of intact and healthy ecosystems still exist up there for hunting and fishing. 

The sin tax stings but not worrying about health insurance when you move is worth a lot. 

Per guns....must depend on province as my buddy in Halifax has plenty of stories of some pretty scary preppers and militia type in his neck of the woods. I think there might be plenty of regions in which there is pretty noticeable discretion in how they enforce gun ownership laws but that's probably a different scenario for expats.


----------



## Brettski7

High Desert Elk said:


> There are two ways of doing things, hand. You can either cry and whine publicly the way some of the "demonstrators" are, or, you can engage in civil discussion and be aware of what is going on and casting your ballot accordingly.
> 
> If someone is silenced for whatever reason, then they are in the wrong forum...


Apologies. I missed the word vote in your original post and was responding towards the other part.

Yes I do vote as that's all I can do. I also realize it's pretty ineffective in a lot of areas, including Utah.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Critter

You would really need to look at the politics in Canada before moving there.

Just a few years ago the folks in British Colombia outlawed hunting grizzly bears. Now the ones that voted to ban the hunt were not the rural folk where you would want to live but the liberal crowd in the bigger cities. 

If they can do it to one animal they can do it to all of them. 

Then there is the gun ban that the Prime Minister or whoever he is decided to implement. He decided that certain rifles, calibers, and size of shells were not proper. Now look where they are.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Canada would probably be a great place to live and hunt, but it sounds like the immigration process is VERY stringent. It's funny because the handful of liberal friends I have on Facebook all gush about Canada, Trudeau and all things Canadian. They seem to think of it as some kind of paradise and what America should be if it weren't for the stupid ******** ruining everything. Canada may be quite liberal in some ways, but this whole open borders idea that a lot of the left here seem to idealize and Canadian immigration policy certainly don't jive very well. They really don't even seem to want you at all unless you are a productive contributor type. I'm not just talking about just another cog in the wheel type of productive like I would say I am, but a very specialized highly skilled type of productive that will be a great asset to the country. My liberal friends must turn a blind eye to this facet of the Canadian way. Somewhere out there a soyciety may exist where cuckoldry abounds, the bathrooms are all gender neutral, blue haired feminists and scarf wearing, reddit posting autists frolic in the streets, and rivers of soy flow freely. That place is likely not Canada, however. For most of us our best bet would probably be to keep traveling north through Canada until you hit Murica again. Seems like they will let just about any ol' deviant in up in that neck of the woods.


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## johnnycake

> Seems like they will let just about any ol' deviant in up in that neck of the woods.


Can confirm


----------



## Lone_Hunter

Critter said:


> You would really need to look at the politics in Canada before moving there.


 Quoted for emphasis. If your conservative in your views, you will NOT like the politics of the worlds first "post modern nation" lead by a virtue signaling substitute drama teacher who refers to "mankind" not even as "human kind" but as "people kind."

Canada, is not an option. Personally, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else then in the US anyway.


----------



## Brettski7

Lone_Hunter said:


> Quoted for emphasis. If your conservative in your views, you will NOT like the politics of the worlds first "post modern nation" lead by a virtue signaling substitute drama teacher who refers to "mankind" not even as "human kind" but as "people kind."
> 
> Canada, is not an option. Personally, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else then in the US anyway.


We thought maybe Normandy or something like that for a little bit but not forever. My job actually has positions in Germany and we are considering that for a couple years just to say we did it. Can't do that for another 5 years though at least and well I'm sure by then it will be a definite no.

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## Critter

The grass is always greener when looking in from the outside. 

I am on another hunting forum that has a lot of Europeans on it. They are always amazed at the freedoms that we have as far as hunting and firearm ownership is here in the US. 

Some countries you can own firearms but you need to belong to a club and store the firearms at that club. Others require police permits and you are only allowed to have the firearm in your vehicle when transporting it to the hunting grounds or the club shooting range. 

Seeing just how other countries regulate firearms all you need to do is to head off to one for hunting. Canada isn't too bad. But when I went to South Africa and I saw their rules and regulations I was surprised that a country that had as many game farms and hunters traversing through it would be as regulated as it is. 

Just purchasing a tag and going hunting is unheard of in a lot of them also. Once again you need to belong to a club and hunt on it's property.


----------



## CPAjeff

Brettski7 said:


> Honestly. Texas. We were considering the San Antonio or Austin area. Was looking there for years. For the prices houses are here you could get double the house there. Public land hunting I don't believe is as good though but don't have to deal with this bs draw crap. There is no public land hunting to speak of. 95% of Texas is privately owned. The areas of Texas that are public, require a draw permit. There are some pretty neat hunts a person could draw consistently as a resident. Texas Game and Fish also has a list of available land for lease - EVERYONE in Texas has a hunting lease. Has great turkey hunting. True, on a lease. Has good deer hunting (whitetail). True, on a lease. Has some good duck hunting. True. Good fishing. True. Oh and higher wages. True. It's so large the political impact is very small or non existent from people moving in from Cali etc. still have some decent outdoor activities to do like some off-roading, mountain biking etc. A lot more job prospects than here. Also no state income tax. True - and here is what most people won't tell you about taxes . . . property taxes are INSANELY high! Our annual property tax liability was $10K for the home we owned. You might bring home more money per paycheck because of no state income tax, but have fun paying the property taxes. Sure, there are plenty of ways to reduce your tax liability, but it's not all sunshine and roses like most people want to portray. Yes there are things wrong with there like it's hot (hot here is nothing compared to south hot).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I lived east of Dallas for a while earlier on in my career. Texas is a very cool place and I loved my time there. With that being said, see my comments in red.

Having lived in Utah, Texas, and Illinois, I'd say we have it pretty darn good here in the old Beehive State. Incredibly long waterfowl season, plenty of big game opportunities for those who are willing to put in a little effort and drive a few hours away from the Wasatch Front, plethora of upland bird hunting opportunities, not to mention some of the best fishing in the West.


----------



## Brettski7

CPAjeff said:


> I lived east of Dallas for a while earlier on in my career. Texas is a very cool place and I loved my time there. With that being said, see my comments in red.


Yea there is a lot of lease land. But there is public that can be hunted and have good hunting. Property taxes depends on the county you live in and where in the county and stuff you live. If you live outside the limits in a lot of places it greatly reduces property taxes. But heck I'll pay a little higher in property taxes for higher wages, no state income tax, and more property for your money. Also if you get the right piece of land and have it zoned right (say agriculture) then those property taxes are about the same as the states around it. All you have to do is have a farmer come cut for some hay and have it deemed agriculture. Some friends of ours did just that, and also lived outside of city limits so their property taxes were waaaaayyyyy cheaper than what you listed.

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## backcountry

Lone_Hunter said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> 
> You would really need to look at the politics in Canada before moving there.
> 
> 
> 
> Quoted for emphasis. If your conservative in your views, you will NOT like the politics of the worlds first "post modern nation" lead by a virtue signaling substitute drama teacher who refers to "mankind" not even as "human kind" but as "people kind."
> 
> Canada, is not an option. Personally, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else then in the US anyway.
Click to expand...

That's were traditional conservative/(l)iberal ideals and cultural conservatives diverge. What you griped about is culture war stuff of the American right that most of the world doesn't include in their philosophy of governance, with a few exceptions. The irony is you just barfed up the most virtue signalled post yet.

Canada, as compared to most of the world and traditional conservatism, is pretty dang moderate. It's never really dove into the extremism of both sides like the US has. Given they don't have a right to bear arms, comparable to Americans, their firearm policy is rather forgiving and not heavily enforced. Like I said before, it might be different for an American expat trying to bring up what most of the world would consider an arsenal though.

One exception to moderate politics is how Canada and places like the UK are expanding hate speech laws. UK is worse but Canada is definitely playing fast and loose with (l)iberal ideals itself at the moment. Given how young their charter of rights is I'm now sure how strongly that will be fought against in their courts over the coming decades. Even then a lot of hateful stuff can be said as long it's not in the workplace so the average American culture warrior would be fine.


----------



## Lone_Hunter

On a positive note, it looks like we aren't on the California top 10 list. Other states are getting hit hard. Really hard. Texas IS the number 1 destination, and will have some long term electoral repercussions, because the majority of people coming out of California do not learn. They'll just continue making the same mistakes they always have. 

Anyway, I think we should promote the poliygs and prairie dresses more.


----------



## MadHunter

Hey guys I have been away and out of the conversation on purpose for the last few months (at least it feels like months) so it is with a a bit of sadness that I say to all those contemplating leaving UT.... Bye Felicia!

Don't take it as an insult because it's not. Just Bye!


----------



## rtockstein

MadHunter said:


> Hey guys I have been away and out of the conversation on purpose for the last few months (at least it feels like months) so it is with a a bit of sadness that I say to all those contemplating leaving UT.... Bye Felicia!
> 
> Don't take it as an insult because it's not. Just Bye!


Ha!!! I need to watch that movie again very soon.


----------



## Lone_Hunter

Oh don't worry, if there is people leaving Utah, it will be offset by the natural birth rate and all the out of state transplants. The overcrowding will continue regardless. Any of you guys take a look at "Eagle valley"? Eagle mountains full up, they've gone into the valley beyond. Looks like the next Los Angeles basin in the making. Driving through there a year or so ago, and it was easy to see how it will eventually be nothing but city as far as the eye can see.


----------



## Critter

We used to hunt coyotes and rattle snakes where Eagle Valley is now. Every now and then we would catch a real nice buck in the area also.


----------



## rtockstein

Everyone that is upset can thank the industrial revolution and our country's freedom. The advent of the affordable automobile, interstates, and democracy are the cause.

In this case, I would say things started going downhill about the time humans became really good sailors.


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## Lone_Hunter

That has little to do with overcrowding. Most of the country's population has been hemmed up in cities, and that appears to be shifting for various reasons.

As an aside, I found this video somewhat interesting. The guys voice and sense of humor I didn't really care for, but the overall theme was informative I guess.


----------



## Catherder

Eeeeew.

https://kutv.com/news/local/wyoming...n-rumors-are-true-case-will-be-very-difficult

Are you guys sure you want to move to Wyoming?


----------



## johnnycake

It is 2020 you know.


----------



## Catherder

johnnycake said:


> It is 2020 you know.


Yeah, but that is the 1800's version of messed up.


----------



## PBH

It's your choice. :noidea:


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> It's your choice. :noidea:


What about the horse?

#equinelivesmatter


----------



## PBH

I was talking about the horses! 

#HorsesWantFreedomForBDSMToo


----------



## backcountry

What did I just read? I think thumbnails for photos of the horses' eyes made it even more haunting.

Is it worse that they don't have a law or that its happens enough elsewhere that it had to be written into law?


----------



## johnnycake

backcountry said:


> What did I just read? I think thumbnails for photos of the horses' eyes made it even more haunting.
> 
> Is it worse that they don't have a law or that its happens enough elsewhere that it had to be written into law?


Do yourself a favor and never Google "Mr. Hands"


----------



## backcountry

some advice you don't need to hear twice. I'll trust you on that one.


----------



## Catherder

backcountry said:


> Is it worse that they don't have a law or that its happens enough elsewhere that it had to be written into law?


All I know is, back in the day, a disquieting number of cowboy friends from the rangelands of Montana and Wyoming used to joke about the subject an inordinate amount.


----------



## johnnycake

Catherder said:


> All I know is, back in the day, a disquieting number of cowboy friends from the rangelands of Montana and Wyoming used to joke about the subject an inordinate amount.


Ahh, Wyoming! Where the men are men, and the women are too.

Ahh, Montana! Where the men are men, and the sheep are scared.


----------



## 2full

I'm in Montana right now to see grandkids. Spent last night on Jackson. About 1/10 the size of Parowan. 
Beautiful place. So quiet and peaceful. 
In Phillipsburg tonight. Population about 800. 
I may not come back........


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Catherder said:


> Eeeeew.
> 
> https://kutv.com/news/local/wyoming...n-rumors-are-true-case-will-be-very-difficult
> 
> Are you guys sure you want to move to Wyoming?


 even without the barnyard romance I already crossed Wyoming off the list. I know of a guy up there who works in the energy industry so he should make decent money, but he's still so hard up, he eats sparrows and starlings and crap like that. It must be hard to get by in Wyoming.


----------



## 2full

Ya, I love his recipes almost all of the time. We have used several of them over the years. 
But he did lose me on the sparrows and starling thing. 
Not complaining......was VERY educational.


----------



## backcountry

I'm still tempted to make something with a whistle pig.


----------



## wyogoob

I can remember when Evingston was in Wyoming. Those were the days.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

wyogoob said:


> I can remember when Evingston was in Wyoming. Those were the days.


 there goes Goob remembering things that never even happened again!


----------



## Catherder

colorcountrygunner said:


> there goes Goob remembering things that never even happened again!


I thought Evingston was always the Northern Utah special economic district just like Hong Kong is with mainland China.


----------



## shaner

Sister city to Wendover.


----------



## olibooger

I would stay within the mountainous areas here, within a 350 mile radius. The more populated areas are beyond the deserts that surround this area. When the blue states get even worse, which I have no doubt they will, they will have a harder time reaching us if they shutdown the freeways or require covid passes. 
Utah is one of the few places I would want to be during these times. The other few places arent far from here.


----------



## backcountry

Is a Covid Pass (TM) like a fast pass at Disney World?


----------



## Lone_Hunter

olibooger said:


> I would stay within the mountainous areas here, within a 350 mile radius. The more populated areas are beyond the deserts that surround this area. When the blue states get even worse, which I have no doubt they will, they will have a harder time reaching us if they shutdown the freeways or require covid passes.
> Utah is one of the few places I would want to be during these times. The other few places arent far from here.


Someones been watching the news today. :roll:

As crowded as Utah is becoming, I doubt Utah will ever deliberately shut off peoples water for non compliance to Covid directives like California, or run COVID "papers please" checkpoints at the borders like New York.

I (We) may bitch and moan about this or that, but given these troubled times in which we find ourselves, we are in a pretty good place. Best to keep that to ourselves though and not invite everyone in. Trouble is the words out already. I was on the phone with some buisness in CA the other day trying to order a piece of PPE, and the first thing they asked after I gave them my phone number is "What state is that?".... "Utah" I said. Next thing they said was, "Oh, cool, we are opening an office there soon".

I kept my thoughts to myself after that.


----------



## Vanilla

Lone_Hunter said:


> I (We) may bitch and moan about this or that, but given these troubled times in which we find ourselves, we are in a pretty good place.


Nope. Utah sucks. People should definitely leave. And for everyone already not here, avoid this place like the plague!

The hunting sucks. Virtually every single other state in the union is better. Fishing is only marginally better, which is not saying much. We charge way too much for tags, and that is only if you can ever draw them. Good luck with that!

Everything about Utah is terrible. Time for everyone to pack it on up and head out for greener pastures, like Colorado and New Mexico. They are so vastly better.


----------



## Catherder

backcountry said:


> Is a Covid Pass (TM) like a fast pass at Disney World?


Maybe it is like a state parks pass but it allows you to access resources in counties that are shut down to regular outsiders during a health emergency. Would have come in handy this spring.



Vanilla said:


> Nope. Utah sucks. People should definitely leave. And for everyone already not here, avoid this place like the plague!
> 
> The hunting sucks. Virtually every single other state in the union is better. Fishing is only marginally better, which is not saying much. We charge way too much for tags, and that is only if you can ever draw them. Good luck with that!
> 
> Everything about Utah is terrible. Time for everyone to pack it on up and head out for greener pastures, like Colorado and New Mexico. They are so vastly better.


Preach bruthah,

And let me add more. Our fishing not only sucks but there is reduced access, thanks to the legislature. Waters that pass for "blue ribbon" sit next to the freeway. And hunting? just head over to the big game section and see what your chances are of getting a tag sometime in your life.

A lot of this thread has political overtones. Well, here is the real scoop for you "true" partisans.

If you are a "blue" guy, why the heck would you ever want to come here? Don't you know that Utah is one of the reddest states in the nation? The Utah Democrat party is akin to the Washington Generals that the Globetrotters play against. No shot at winning or wielding any power or winning elections. You will be muuuuch more comfortable in Colorado or New Mexico than here.

And for the "red" guys, You don't want to come here either. Why, the governor was recently compared to Hitler by a true patriot for having the temerity to impose rights violating health restrictions. They will make you wear a mask in some parts of the state. Much of the state feels that the state gubmint is far too liburl and is practically blue. No freedom loving American would like it in Utah. Go join Ammon Bundy in Idaho or I hear that Wyoming doesn't have any Democrats there so that could be a destination. 
And we make the women wear polygamist dresses.

Finally, did I say anything about all the religious fanatics here?


----------



## Lone_Hunter

Vanilla said:


> Nope. Utah sucks. People should definitely leave. And for everyone already not here, avoid this place like the plague!


 You're right. Ain't nothing here but prairie dresses, swoopy hairdo's and polygs. Side note: The woman with the really high swoopy is the first wife, and the most righteous. I don't know if it's true or not, I just made it up for something i'd like to put in a tourist brochure :mrgreen:

edit:


Catherder said:


> A lot of this thread has political overtones.


Of course there are. The nation is coming apart at the seams, *literally*; and we are *ALL *sitting on a powder keg that is due to explode in November.


----------



## olibooger

backcountry said:


> Is a Covid Pass (TM) like a fast pass at Disney World?


No, it's more like this.

https://covipass.com/

Paper is a thing of the past..

I'll leave out the other part...


----------



## backcountry

Oh, okay so its just an app someone developed to hold various documents. Crazy that in a capitalist western world that someone might try to capitalize on covid-19. Gasp! 

I think my Android came with something similar for airline passes. 

We must be getting close another wave as "papers please" seems to be coming back in vogue.


----------



## backcountry

Catherder said:


> Maybe it is like a state parks pass but it allows you to access resources in counties that are shut down to regular outsiders during a health emergency. Would have come in handy this spring.


Touché


----------



## Lone_Hunter

If Facebook has a datacenter that their building solar panels for here in Utah...
https://www.fox13now.com/news/local...-be-built-in-rural-utah-on-behalf-of-facebook

It's a good bet that silicon slopes WILL become the next silicon valley. Give it 10 years, give or take, and the only people who are going to be able to afford to live in the area are Big Tech managers and CEO's. They are going to force most average utahns right out of the area.

I have always detested silicon slopes since its inception. They've already formed an action group and are trying to effect local politics. No I don't remember it's name, but I saw an article on KSL a year or two back about it - portraying it as some kind of great thing. When I tried to speak up about it in the comments section, KSL, like they always do, censor anything that is counterproductive to their narrative.

I worked in IT for over 14 years I think it was. That industry will suck our prosperity dry and then leave behind an empty husk when it's done. Just like some areas in California. Just give it time, oh sure it will be a boom for those working it in the meantime, but the end result will be outsourcing, offshoring, and layoffs. I survived two rebranding's, one acquisition, one merger, and 7 rounds of layoffs before my job was finally offshored to Poland. Too many people think short term, but in long term, this industry is a community killer.

The thing about IT company's as they are ultimately global company's, and while they may pay lip service to the community in which they reside, ultimately they will only be there so long as there is something to be gained from that community. Once there is nothing to be gained, they will leave to start over again somewhere else, and in their wake is going to be astronomically unaffordable housing, a large income disparity, more homelessness, and an overall gutted community.

To those responsible for encouraging that industry to move to Utah, I give a firm and heartfelt one fingered salute.


----------



## olibooger

backcountry said:


> Oh, okay so its just an app someone developed to hold various documents. Crazy that in a capitalist western world that someone might try to capitalize on covid-19. Gasp!
> 
> I think my Android came with something similar for airline passes.
> 
> We must be getting close another wave as "papers please" seems to be coming back in vogue.


No, it isnt just an app someone made in a western society to make money. They have this all over the world. All new phones have something like this built into them. 
Like I said, the other part doesnt require a phone for tracking though. But its top dystopic for some so it's best to leave it alone until it's less avoidable.


----------



## Vanilla

The boogey man is posting about tracking now. I wonder how many of his posts have been sent from a smartphone? 

The smartphone was the absolute end of your privacy people. If you have one, or anyone in your household has one, you gave up your privacy already the second you started carrying it. 

Social media accounts? You’ve doubled down on giving that privacy away.

*Edit: Oh, and this only applies to Utah. You’re probably safe everywhere else. Everyone should go to that everywhere else place!


----------



## olibooger

Vanilla, do you see the rioting, raping, murdering, drug use and mayhem that is going on around the country? I never said anything about privacy, you did. 
I did mention a covid pass to move freely however. I also cited a global website that points everyone in that direction, which has to do with the title of this thread to move out or not


Pull your head out of your ass. What is happening in blue states will eventually shift to all states....
Which also has to do with where and if to move out of Utah.
Wake up Vanilla


----------



## colorcountrygunner

olibooger said:


> Wake up Vanilla


This is where grammar becomes massively important. I assume that you are telling Vanilla that he needs to wake up. In that case your sentence should read as follows: "Wake up, Vanilla." When you omit the comma it comes across like you are telling somebody else they need to wake up Vanilla. "Hey, can you do me a favor? I need you to wake up Vanilla."


----------



## backcountry

I think Oli trying to say the Bill Gates Vaccine (TM) will be microchipped and we are all going to be stuck closing pop up ads about antivirus updates the rest of the pandemic.

**** you Norton!


----------



## Lone_Hunter

Hey, at least he's not using "R's and "UR's" and "Cuz" or "NE1" or anything like that. I'm no grammar nazi, but that drives me nuts. That said, I haven't seen that in a few years now. Maybe it was an internet fad that thankfully died.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Lone_Hunter said:


> Hey, at least he's not using "R's and "UR's" and "Cuz" or "NE1" or anything like that. I'm no grammar nazi, but that drives me nuts. That said, I haven't seen that in a few years now. Maybe it was an internet fad that thankfully died.


Yeah, that's cringe af when people do that.


----------



## brisket

Lone_Hunter said:


> They are going to force most average utahns right out of the area.


Do you realize that the majority of employees in Silicon Slopes _are_ average Utahns?



Lone_Hunter said:


> To those responsible for encouraging that industry to move to Utah, I give a firm and heartfelt one fingered salute.


Tell us how you really feel.


----------



## Vanilla

The “average Utahn” already can’t afford a house in Silicon Slopes. Go check and see what $450,000 gets you there. If you don’t find anything after 5 minutes, just keep searching. 

Utah used to be a great place to live. It’s already ruined now though. No hunting. Barely any fishing. Overpopulated. Terrible air quality. Religious zealots. Everyone is racist. Cost of living is sky rocketing. People getting shot in the streets in Provo. It’s complete anarchy. 

Definitely time for everyone to move to Colorado and New Mexico!


----------



## backcountry

Vanilla,

I think you'd have your elk tag in hand by now if you lived in Florida. Plus you can always fall back on hunting pythons if that doesn't work out.

Plus I think we all know nothing says Vanilla like Miami!


----------



## Catherder

colorcountrygunner said:


> This is where grammar becomes massively important. I assume that you are telling Vanilla that he needs to wake up. In that case your sentence should read as follows: "Wake up, Vanilla." When you omit the comma it comes across like you are telling somebody else they need to wake up Vanilla. "Hey, can you do me a favor? I need you to wake up Vanilla."


It looks like one way or another, Vanilla woke up.

The bottom line, folks, is stay away or move on out. There is nothing in Utah for you guys. Regardless of your political "color", you can do better.

Now, if one is interested in some non hyperbolic discussion on the perception of crime,

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...nced-crime-is-rising-in-the-u-s-theyre-wrong/

and democracy. Here you go.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...land-shows-just-how-fragile-our-democracy-is/


----------



## Kwalk3

Catherder said:


> It looks like one way or another, Vanilla woke up.
> 
> The bottom line, folks, is stay away or move on out. There is nothing in Utah for you guys. Regardless of your political "color", you can do better.
> 
> Now, if one is interested in some non hyperbolic discussion on the perception of crime,
> 
> https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...nced-crime-is-rising-in-the-u-s-theyre-wrong/
> 
> and democracy. Here you go.
> 
> https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...land-shows-just-how-fragile-our-democracy-is/


Last time I checked, non-hyperbolic discussion is a direct violation of forum rules.


----------



## brisket

Vanilla said:


> The "average Utahn" already can't afford a house in Silicon Slopes. Go check and see what $450,000 gets you there. If you don't find anything after 5 minutes, just keep searching.


 I guess it depends how "average Utahn" is defined. It's probably quite subjective. All I know is before everyone started working from home, my office in Silicon Slopes was full of what I would call "average Utahns". Sure there are a few transplants from other states, but the vast majority were born and raised. Perhaps others would classify them as "above average Utahns"? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, don't discount the upward pressure that ridiculously low interest rates have on housing prices. There is more at play than just Silicon Slopes.



Vanilla said:


> Utah used to be a great place to live. It's already ruined now though. No hunting. Barely any fishing. Overpopulated. Terrible air quality. Religious zealots. Everyone is racist. Cost of living is sky rocketing. People getting shot in the streets in Provo. It's complete anarchy.
> 
> Definitely time for everyone to move to Colorado and New Mexico!


Agreed. Everyone move out, Utah sucks!


----------



## Kwalk3

colorcountrygunner said:


> This is where grammar becomes massively important. I assume that you are telling Vanilla that he needs to wake up. In that case your sentence should read as follows: "Wake up, Vanilla." When you omit the comma it comes across like you are telling somebody else they need to wake up Vanilla. "Hey, can you do me a favor? I need you to wake up Vanilla."


"Let's eat, Grandpa!" vs. "Let's eat Grandpa!"

Big difference in the two.


----------



## Catherder

Kwalk3 said:


> Last time I checked, non-hyperbolic discussion is a direct violation of forum rules.


Criminy, you are right! :doh:

I deserve to be banned. :ban:


----------



## Vanilla

Brisket, “average Utahn” could just be taken as median income. And I’m sure there are lots of those people working in your office and others. And I’m sure there are many of those people living in communities right around Silicon Slopes. But one with close to the median Utah income could not buy a house there today. 

I’m nowhere near anywhere fancy. I have a neighbor that makes decent money, well above the median. He has lived in his house 5 years now, and there is now way he could afford to buy it today. 

That’s all I’m referring to. It’s not a criticism of “average Utahn” or Silicon Slopes. Just an analysis on property values skyrocketing the last few years. I suspect more than 50% of Utah home owners could not afford to buy the home they are currently living in today if they were to purchase the same home today. That’s scary! Remind anyone of 2006-07? I hope 2008 isn’t around the corner.


----------



## olibooger

colorcountrygunner said:


> olibooger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wake up Vanilla
> 
> 
> 
> This is where grammar becomes massively important. I assume that you are telling Vanilla that he needs to wake up. In that case your sentence should read as follows: "Wake up, Vanilla." When you omit the comma it comes across like you are telling somebody else they need to wake up Vanilla. "Hey, can you do me a favor? I need you to wake up Vanilla."
Click to expand...

Wow. That does make a huge difference. Thank you for clarifying!



Kwalk3 said:


> colorcountrygunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is where grammar becomes massively important. I assume that you are telling Vanilla that he needs to wake up. In that case your sentence should read as follows: "Wake up, Vanilla." When you omit the comma it comes across like you are telling somebody else they need to wake up Vanilla. "Hey, can you do me a favor? I need you to wake up Vanilla."
> 
> 
> 
> "Let's eat, Grandpa!" vs. "Let's eat Grandpa!"
> 
> Big difference in the two.
Click to expand...

Haha, that puts it in even more perspective.

I'll try to remember this from now on.

I'm terrible with english. Wifey corrects me all the time &#129318;‍♂


----------



## brisket

Vanilla said:


> Brisket, "average Utahn" could just be taken as median income. And I'm sure there are lots of those people working in your office and others. And I'm sure there are many of those people living in communities right around Silicon Slopes. But one with close to the median Utah income could not buy a house there today.


According to this website, the median income in Utah is $71,414. By that definition, I would say most in Silicon Slopes are above the average Utahn in income. The ones I do know that are near the median or below are not homeowners, so you have a good point. You'd probably need two people in the household both working a median income job to purchase a home in today's market in the area.



Vanilla said:


> I'm nowhere near anywhere fancy. I have a neighbor that makes decent money, well above the median. He has lived in his house 5 years now, and there is now way he could afford to buy it today.
> 
> That's all I'm referring to. It's not a criticism of "average Utahn" or Silicon Slopes. Just an analysis on property values skyrocketing the last few years. I suspect more than 50% of Utah home owners could not afford to buy the home they are currently living in today if they were to purchase the same home today. That's scary! Remind anyone of 2006-07? I hope 2008 isn't around the corner.


Agreed, it is scary. I'd hate to be trying to purchase a home right now.

I always figured the lawyer types would be making $300k+ per year, taking their helicopters to work and such, but what do I know?


----------



## Kwalk3

brisket said:


> According to this website, the median income in Utah is $71,414. By that definition, I would say most in Silicon Slopes are above the average Utahn in income. The ones I do know that are near the median or below are not homeowners, so you have a good point. You'd probably need two people in the household both working a median income job to purchase a home in today's market in the area.
> 
> Agreed, it is scary. I'd hate to be trying to purchase a home right now.
> 
> I always figured the lawyer types would be making $300k+ per year, taking their helicopters to work and such, but what do I know?


Pretty sure Vanilla still has a helicopter, just not a "fancy" helicopter. Everyone has had to make sacrifices during these uncertain times.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Kwalk3 said:


> colorcountrygunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is where grammar becomes massively important. I assume that you are telling Vanilla that he needs to wake up. In that case your sentence should read as follows: "Wake up, Vanilla." When you omit the comma it comes across like you are telling somebody else they need to wake up Vanilla. "Hey, can you do me a favor? I need you to wake up Vanilla."
> 
> 
> 
> "Let's eat, Grandpa!" vs. "Let's eat Grandpa!"
> 
> Big difference in the two.
Click to expand...

 grandpa might still be here had my family known the difference. I wonder if Goob has any good grandpa recipes.


----------



## johnnycake

Kwalk3 said:


> Pretty sure Vanilla still has a helicopter, just not a "fancy" helicopter. Everyone has had to make sacrifices during these uncertain times.


I found some footage of Vanillabean's helicopter in action


----------



## Daisy

Vanilla said:


> That's all I'm referring to. It's not a criticism of "average Utahn" or Silicon Slopes. Just an analysis on property values skyrocketing the last few years. I suspect more than 50% of Utah home owners could not afford to buy the home they are currently living in today if they were to purchase the same home today. That's scary! Remind anyone of 2006-07? I hope 2008 isn't around the corner.


Credit is too easy to use and abuse right now. It is not just homes, but the guy that has $250K leveraged on multiple 20 year notes for his truck+ 5th wheel + ski boat with matching paint jobs and wheels.

There will be some deals for some folks in the coming years for those looking for a truck, trailer or boat.


----------



## DallanC

Daisy said:


> There will be some deals for some folks in the coming years for those looking for a truck, trailer or boat.


Bingo. We were looking seriously for a new(er) truck a month ago... but with the storms on the horizon, we're holding off a year. I really think we are headed to epically bad times in the near future, and there will be alot of deals due to people being underwater.

-DallanC


----------



## Lone_Hunter

brisket said:


> Do you realize that the majority of employees in Silicon Slopes _are_ average Utahns?


Sure they employ some Utahns, however, considering the amount of Washington and California car tags ive been seeing for the last 5-6 years (like 1 out of every 4/5 vehicles), I highly doubt the majority of those IT code monkeys are Uthans.

Without a doubt a fair number of people working those IT jobs are imports from other states. They moved with their company. Then those people see how well off we were, they tell their friends, and now here we are - getting more crowded every day, and more expensive every year. My taxes went up at least twice within the last year. No thanks to all the people moving in, putting a further burden existing resources in the area.

Yeah I'm bitter, and I have no qualms in saying it. The jokes on everyone in 15-20 years (edit: if not sooner) when a lot of those IT buildings will be up for rent, and what's left of the wasatch front will probably resemble San Franchitco.

Enjoy the party while it lasts, it will end eventually, and Utah will be left holding the bag.

edit:


brisket said:


> . All I know is before everyone started working from home, my office in Silicon Slopes.


Is that an office on "mahogany row" or is it in a "sensory deprivation chamber"?

COVID aside, I also have to say, working remotely is a farce. Especially when you work for a large corporate IT company. You end up putting in more hours and work to justify yourself then if you were actually in the office - and they know it. Then your home becomes more akin to a golden cage. Working and eating under the same roof. You end up missing getting out of the house more, water cooler talk, BSing with coworkers, etc. The only thing I didn't miss was the morning commute. I did that for two years, and I ended up hating it. The only time I got out of the house, was grocery shopping once a week. It sucks.


----------



## Catherder

DallanC said:


> Bingo. We were looking seriously for a new(er) truck a month ago... but with the storms on the horizon, we're holding off a year. I really think we are headed to epically bad times in the near future, and there will be alot of deals due to people being underwater.
> 
> -DallanC


I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm ready to buy, but am torn on whether to go for it now, wait a month or so for the year end close outs or wait a little longer still.


----------



## Lone_Hunter

Catherder said:


> I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm ready to buy, but am torn on whether to go for it now, wait a month or so for the year end close outs or wait a little longer still.


Personally, I don't think this is the year to be making any large personal purchases, but that is my nature as I tend to, within reason, play it safe. If as many people are behind in their rents and out of work as i've heard, it's eventually going to catch up with anyone who runs a hospital or clinic, though thus far I doubt covid has negatively effected your bottom line. That said, I'd be worried if the client base ends up in a situation where they couldn't afford services even moreso then usual, that will effect your bottom line. That and all it takes is one or two staff members who make poor personal decisions and the next thing you know your entire business is shut down for a couple weeks, and your entire client base is funneled to a nearby hospital. Thats alot of lost revenue.

I guess it boils down to opportunity, vs playing it safe. Risk vs reward? Personally, I like very calculated gambles where the odds are in my favor, though I realize that isn't always how things work.


----------



## Vanilla

Lone, I gotta ask....


Where did you come from?


----------



## Lone_Hunter

I indirectly answered that on the 2nd post on this thread. It's nothing I'm proud of, and I try to distance myself from it as much as I can. I moved here long before the downward spiral of the last 4-5 years. Don't count me as part of what has been going on to Utah. I kept my mouth shut and told nobody about this place. I didn't want to see this place go to crap, but it is anyway. I could say a lot more then i have, but it would make some peoples heads explode.


But by all means, give me an excuse to unload with both barrels. :mrgreen:


----------



## Brettski7

Lone_Hunter said:


> I indirectly answered that on the 2nd post on this thread. It's nothing I'm proud of, and I try to distance myself from it as much as I can. I moved here long before the downward spiral of the last 4-5 years. Don't count me as part of what has been going on to Utah. I kept my mouth shut and told nobody about this place. I didn't want to see this place go to crap, but it is anyway. I could say a lot more then i have, but it would make some peoples heads explode.
> 
> But by all means, give me an excuse to unload with both barrels. :mrgreen:


Unload. Just unload.

I will respectfully disagree though. It sure everywhere you have lived but coming from where I came from and have lived, Utah is amazing. Sure it has some quirks and stuff, and the housing has become ridiculous (which is why I currently rent) but overall it's a great place. I think only other place I could see myself living is Montana, Wyoming, or maybe Idaho. Well Texas maybe also. Oh I also have one of those tech jobs but not down in Silicon Slopes. They aren't going anywhere as long you can evolve and work for the right sectors.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lone_Hunter

Lord how I've come to hate IT. It's an industry that doesn't value loyalty, highly volatile, highly compedative, and more continuing education then someone with letters after their name. Whatever you spent time learning, it's obsolete within 2 years and means jack diddly, then back to school learning the new hotness. 14 years of work experience, and i've zero marketable job skills in that industry as I type this.

My unloading will be entirely too political. I've lived in the red, and the blue. I've compared and contrasted both frequently over the years. I've got a "california" post saved on a text file that i wrote april of last year sitting here on my desktop. That should tell you something of my level of angst.

edit:


Brettski7 said:


> I will respectfully disagree though. It sure everywhere you have lived but coming from where I came from and have lived, Utah is amazing. Sure it has some quirks and stuff, and the housing has become ridiculous (which is why I currently rent) but overall it's a great place.


Point of clarification. I love Utah. It is because I love Utah that I hate seeing what has been happening to it these last 5 years, and why I'm bitching and moaning about it.


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## Critter

My question is where isn't housing cost out of hand?

Yes, there are areas that are cheaper but the wedges reflect it in also being lower 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## Brettski7

Critter said:


> My question is where isn't housing cost out of hand?
> 
> Yes, there are areas that are cheaper but the wedges reflect it in also being lower
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk





Critter said:


> My question is where isn't housing cost out of hand?
> 
> Yes, there are areas that are cheaper but the wedges reflect it in also being lower
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


I've answered that. Texas. Higher wages lower housing cost. Still a lot to do but don't have quite the scenery and still not as much as Utah has to offer. However if you made more money and had lower cost of living I guess you could just travel more to places with more things to do.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brettski7

Lone_Hunter said:


> Lord how I've come to hate IT. It's an industry that doesn't value loyalty, highly volatile, highly compedative, and more continuing education then someone with letters after their name. Whatever you spent time learning, it's obsolete within 2 years and means jack diddly, then back to school learning the new hotness. 14 years of work experience, and i've zero marketable job skills in that industry as I type this.
> 
> My unloading will be entirely too political. I've lived in the red, and the blue. I've compared and contrasted both frequently over the years. I've got a "california" post saved on a text file that i wrote april of last year sitting here on my desktop. That should tell you something of my level of angst.
> 
> edit:
> 
> Point of clarification. I love Utah. It is because I love Utah that I hate seeing what has been happening to it these last 5 years, and why I'm bitching and moaning about it.


I understand and yes it can be like that in a lot of places in this field. I've been in IT and technology since 2005. I have grown with the industry and moved from IT to cyber security which is why I am more marketable and have a greater skill set. I have done a lot of neat and cool stuff and actually look forward to the changing threat as it...doesn't encourage complacency as much. Yes certifications are gold depending on which ones you have. I'm am completing a masters in cyber and looking to get 3-4 more certs before I am done. Hopefully management or some type of leadership (at least on the civilian side) within the next 5 years. The military has probably allowed me the most opportunity and skill sets though I will say.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Critter

I guess that I didn't suffer like some, I was just miserable most of the time. I worked in the oilfield for real good wages and high cost of living. Then I worked for a major utility company in areas where the wages were alight but a high cost of living.

I worked my rear off which cost me a marriage but after retiring I am having fun as long as I can draw a tag. I've been on a few outfitted hunts and went to Africa hunting. I try to hunt 3 or 4 different states every year along with my home state, so now that I am in my second half of my 60's I've had it pretty good. 

I started hunting way back in the 60's when you had to be 16 for a deer tag in Utah and haven't missed a hunting season since. I have also hunted from one end of Utah to the other and had fun and success in all the areas.

So I hate to tell some of those on here but Utah's deer hunts have been going downhill for a long time now. But you also get back what you put into it. One year I watched a small 4 pt walk around some hunters who ended up shooting a small 2 pt and when I talked to them they complained that there were no bigger bucks in the area. 

You can always say that the grass is greener somewhere else, that is until you get there and find out that it wasn't as bad as you thought back where you started

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## shaner

Silly forum members...

CovidPass:
Allows a person who was voted ‘off the island’ and who promised to never return to spew almost terrorist type threats and to break his promise.


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## Vanilla

shaner dropping knowledge on this great Friday evening!


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## olibooger

Bax took down my post with this flier to stop people from defending our rights. They are censoring our speech and taking our freedom on all platforms. 
It doesnt matter where you go. As mentioned in February/March, there is a bigger government taking this country over. Covid was the setup for this election and the eventual forced vaccination to shop at stores, eat at restaurants or even be outside like places in the UK. 
We the people need to push back against this coup on our government during this election cycle or else it isnt going to matter what state you move to. 
Stop wearing the friggin mask. Stop going along with this run on our freedom. Research the faulty tests that spit out faulty case numbers. Realize this IS a run for our freedom.


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## olibooger

Sit around and wait for the tidal wave or take action before it slams everything we know. I know people have that voice inside that is telling them, RED ALERT something is wrong here. And there is definitely something wrong. Please realize we are being taken over.

There is NO WAY Joe Biden has recieved the most votes in presidential history. A voter graph doesnt spike like this 100% for a single candidate in TWO states. Cmon


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## Kwalk3

Oli, I say this, not intending to be disrespectful, but it would be better to have stayed true to your word and actually left the forum. 

These conspiracy theories are not healthy, nor are they related to the outdoors. We survived 8 years of Obama, 4 years of Trump, and will survive X number of years through more R and D presidents. 

Focusing on those who vote or feel differently than you as an enemy that is taking you over is unhealthy, and is a contributing factor to our current broken discourse and hyper-partisan political climate.

I wish you the best, but please realize that things are going to be ok. Fear is a helluva drug, and I think we'd all be better off if we spent more time in the mountains and re-set our perspectives on what is and isn't a grave threat to our democracy.


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## DallanC

olibooger said:


> There is NO WAY Joe Biden has recieved the most votes in presidential history. A voter graph doesnt spike like this 100% for a single candidate in TWO states. Cmon


Trump told people to vote in person, Biden told people to mail in vote. Those two states didnt start counting mail-in votes until after the in person vote was tallied. Of course mail-in votes will favor Biden, hence the jump.

No conspiracy, easily explainable.

We'll get yet another bump probably back to trump as the overseas military votes are delivered to the states in the coming weeks and counted.

-DallanC


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## olibooger

StolenElection.us


Or would it have been better to create a different account like many others do?
The Democrats have been saying this is what they were going to do all year.
They also said if they couldnt stall the results to stuff the ballots they would take five states and seceed from the union, inaugurate their own president and run a coup on D.C.

The television wont tell you that and neither will any site online. FOXNEWS called Arizona WAY early. Even FOXNEWS has been paid off.

They washed people into thinking any truth is a conspiracy. It is statistically impossible for over 70,000 votes go directly to Biden. IMPOSSIBLE. 

I'm not getting worked up over anyone here or this forum. I'm letting anyone know who cares about this country there are things you can do to support our freedom.
Biden wont last a year and Harris tweet sums up her ideology which is communism. 

They are stealing this election with ill intent. 

I like being free and have been where people are not free. I'm not going to sit here and do nothing while they run their psyop on all of us. 
I dont look down on anyone who disagrees with me. Time has a funny way of surfacing the truth. 

Best wishes.


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## olibooger

I understand I'm not welcome here. I'm just going to say this unless something big happens again. 
Try to strengthen your communities before this stuff gets worse. I can guarantee you you'll want a tight knit community and I promise you'll know when you're happy you do. 

Again, best wishes. 
👋


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## Critter

I believe that I am with others saying that you are welcomed here on the forums. 

But remember that this is a outdoor forum and that there are better type of forums for what you are posting

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## backcountry

I reported the last post and did for these. The moderators have the ultimate choice...but remember...you never had a constitutional right to speech on a private platform. You are always participating at the discretion of the site owner and their administrators. 🤦‍♂️


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## shaner

Oli,
I tire of your constant negative dribble.
Please be a man of your word and never post again.
Do you even remember that promise?
Maybe I am in the minority but I vote that you are not welcome here.
I come to this site to see cool pictures and read enlightening stories from my fellow sportsman that choose to see good in the world.
We are all getting our butts kicked by the world nowadays and we don’t need you.
If I was sharing a boat with you I would jam every bottle of PowerBait so far down my earholes it would probably come out my nose, just in hopes it would drown you out.


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## olibooger

Kwalk3 said:


> Oli, I say this, not intending to be disrespectful, but it would be better to have stayed true to your word and actually left the forum.
> 
> These conspiracy theories are not healthy, nor are they related to the outdoors. We survived 8 years of Obama, 4 years of Trump, and will survive X number of years through more R and D presidents.
> 
> Focusing on those who vote or feel differently than you as an enemy that is taking you over is unhealthy, and is a contributing factor to our current broken discourse and hyper-partisan political climate.
> 
> I wish you the best, but please realize that things are going to be ok. Fear is a helluva drug, and I think we'd all be better off if we spent more time in the mountains and re-set our perspectives on what is and isn't a grave threat to our democracy.


https://authors.library.caltech.edu/27643/1/Deckert_PoliticalAnalysis_2011.pdf

I appreciate you pointing out you're not trying to impose disrespect.

This link offers an explanation into one way of determining possible irregularities within a number set. Benfords Law can be attributed to elections. Find the graphs of this election thus far. It is insane to see the Trump graph v Biden graph. Normal numbers v absolute obvious deviations, fraud.
I was reading this and thought about what you said. And it isnt about people feeling differently. It's about Biden being owned by China, this election being completely and utterly dishonest and the chinese yuan value skyrocketing as soon as Bidens steal began taking place. What is interesting is that it was tanking all the way up until the first dump of ballots in Michigan and Wisconsin. 
I believe in freedom. I believe people ought to have the right to a fair election and as it stands this is not a fair election. Not only that, some peoples votes were flat out rejected and not counted. I'd be pretty upset to be an American citizen and be told my civic duty has been denied in order to set up a society similar to Venezuela. Even more moderate conservative radio show hosts are saying we are headed towards Venezuela or Cuba status. It only took one cheated election, and those peoples vote doesnt matter anymore. 
This country has survived more than just a few presidents and a lot of people died maintaining our freedom. I would hope we the people understand freedom isnt free. We run our government, not the other way around. 
Biden has flat out said he supports lockdowns and forced vaccinations. He supports the mask. He supports us "being like China", in his words.
I pray ACB actually does her job without being paid off. 
Ya know? She voted FOR lockdowns in Illinois. Historically all great nations fall. They are trying to make us fall.

This has not been a normal year. At all. And it continues to not be normal. Why is that? Why is the entire world locked down, forced to have ID tracking apps to go to grocery stores and our election is being hijacked? Why has flu infections gone down dramatically this year and covid has gone up? Why are doctors, our congressmen, our president and various significant people being censored all over the internet? Why is China back to normal life and nobody else is? Why are so many news outlets behaving exactly the same way? Why haven't the Bidens been indicted for the laptop? Why hasn't the media covered it or Tony Bobulinski? Why has Hunter admitted he worked the the chinese spy chief and still, nothing?
I think all of us should start asking more questions and demanding more honest answers. This isnt a normal year.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful either. You guys (and gals) are local. I talk to people in other states but when it comes to our state people seem to want to be left alone. My family does the same thing. My response is, I hope everyone really is left alone and things go back to normal. But it doesnt seem that way. 
Check out the graphs. Maybe look for answers to some questions. To stay in line with the original thread. I want to move out of this state and buy a house. I wonder where else around here has good hunting in their state? Less people would be nice. Not just in the mountains but on the roads. I'd like some land to go with the house. I love America. Right now though, I think I'm staying put.

This got longer than I intended 
God bless


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## Vanilla

I’m so glad I’m not a puppet to another person or a slave to fear. 

I wish you all the best, boogeyman.


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## Bax*

Ok,

I think we are all very concerned about the politics of America right now. And I’m sure we all have input on the matter, but we appreciate the responsible and respectful attitudes of our members who have abstained from posting about political topics that are outside the scope of this forum. 

If you would like to comment on politics, feel free to join any of the many political forums available. But please continue to avoid this here. 

Regarding censorship: this is indeed a private forum as was mentioned. If you dont like the rules, feel free to write forum ownership. There is a reason this forum is so successful, and that is the consistent respect our members show each other and when that respect is revoked by violating forum rules that others strive to honor, then it is time to move on. 

Although we have our differences of opinion on varying outdoor topics, you’ve done a great job of keeping respectful tones. Please continue to make UWN a place worth visiting.


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## bowguyonly

Good thing we still have UWN. I was worried about my freedom for a second reading that crazy stuff.
Thanks Bax!

LoL


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## colorcountrygunner

Hey, guys! Wow, this thread went in a weird direction.


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## bowguyonly

colorcountrygunner said:


> Hey, guys! Wow, this thread went in a weird direction.


It really did. Bax saved us though!


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## Lone_Hunter

Why did Oli have to pick this thread to throw up election concerns is beyond me. I agree with his sentiment, but there are other outlets, which is why I've been here less.

To go back on topic, setting politics aside, right now, for far to many reasons, is NOT a good time to leave Utah. Given what is going on in the country, and what could potentially happen in the future, your better off staying put. For the most part, I think the time to leave has come and gone, and your better off improving and/or consolidating your resources; and generally trying improve you and your families situation here in Utah.


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## Critter

The big question is where would you go? 

Every decent state out there is changing, people that are leaving their present state are moving into the less populated states and are trying to change everything to the way it was in their home state. 

Take a look at Colorado. 20 years ago we would of laughed at the tree huger if they tried to put a wolf reintroduction proposition onto the ballot. Last week it passed by a very slim margin but it passed. They first did the no leg hold/kill trap deal and while I have no idea of how many votes it passed by it passed years ago. Then there was the issue with MJ, it was on two or three ballots before they finally got it through and it became legal. Most of the yes votes came from the front range of Denver, Boulder area. There are enough there to override the rest of the state. 

Back when I was working in Price there was a petition going around for Carbon, Emery, Grand, and San Juan counties to leave the state of Utah. And this was over 30 years ago.


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## Lone_Hunter

Critter said:


> The big question is where would you go?


The last few weeks have shown that Utah isn't gone yet. What's more, comparatively to most other states, it continues to be a safe place to live and keep your family safe. That will change in the future, but in the here and now, it's still a good place to be. Especially when the future looks so uncertain in terms of economy and civil unrest. I'm confident that if certain actors were to bring violence into Utah, they would be met with a fierce opposition. If the country manages to stay together for the next year or two, that's when it might be time to check out of Utah and maybe head far, far north. Pulling up your roots now, puts yourself in a uncertain position. The cost of say, moving to Alaska now, will probably outweigh the benefits. That said, I could be wrong, right now might be the best time to move north.



> Every decent state out there is changing, people that are leaving their present state are moving into the less populated states and are trying to change everything to the way it was in their home state.


It boggles to mind. It's like going into your fridge for a glass of milk, finding that the milk is sour, putting it back in the fridge and saying to yourself, "Maybe tomorrow it will be better". Sadly, some people are unable to be intellectually honest with themselves, and they simply do not know how to think any other way then how they have been.


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## backcountry

If it weren't for job issues I can't imagine leaving Utah. Not many states in the West, Southwest or Intermountain West that aren't dealing with all the same pressures. 

We are considering the midwest on the long term because (a) they have pretty reliable water which will be an issue for Cedar and many western towns in the coming decades and (b) it's one of the few places our increasing home value isn't outpaced by cost elsewhere. I could fill my retirement years fishing and hunting small game and white tail with ease. 

But I'm not quite ready to give up my western wanderlust just yet.


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## Critter

Water is always going to be a issue no matter where you go. They say that the Colorado River is used 5 or more times by the time that it gets to the California/Mexico border and it has been years since it has actually flowed into the Gulf of California. 

People are going to have to realize that they can't have these huge yards and do a flood irrigation for their crops, just too wasteful. Here in Colorado the front range already has quite a bit of all the water that flows into the Colorado and they want to build more dams so that they can take all of their water shares. It is no different in Utah where the Wasatch Front wants all the water that flows into the Green. There was a state Senator here in Colorado who proposed a project that he called The Big Straw. He wanted a Reservoir built on the Colorado/Utah border so that the water could then be pumped back to the Front Range. Then just a couple of years ago they passed a bill here in Colorado where I can now have 1 and just 1 55 gallon rain barrow on my property to catch the rain water that comes off of my roof. Before that once the moisture had hit my roof or the ground it was property of someone else. We asked if we could get damages that their water was doing to our property but they said tough luck.


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## backcountry

I think it's fair to say there are areas where water is significantly less an issue than SW Utah. Cedar City will eventually have to come to terms with the fact that unfettered growth can't always be matched and justified with massive water projects. Demand will exceed supply when supply always requires studies, contracts and massive infrastructure, when it comes to water. 

There are simply places that don't have to worry as much and I'd prefer to retire in one of those locales at some point. But for now we are happy.


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## Vanilla

I will reiterate, Utah is terrible. About 1 million people along the Wasatch Front ought to consider Colorado. It is way better for outdoor experiences and they don’t have all the crazy conservatives to deal with. 

I can help them all list their house, arrange for movers, etc. Happy to assist ASAP!


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## Critter

I was talking to a member on another forum a few years ago and he said that he found and was going to purchase a 35 acre piece of ground in Wyoming and move out. He planed to grow some crops and other things but when I asked him where he was going to get the water he said that he had a stream running through the property. I then told him that he quite likely had no rights to the water in that stream and that he would have to have a well drilled for his home. He couldn't believe that he couldn't use the water out of the stream that was on his property. I then told him about the water wars that have been fought out west here and that he may be better off to stay where he lived at back east.

Mr. Vanilla, send them on over Colorado can't be anymore screwed up than it is now. But remember that the more that move out of Utah the more room there is for others from California or anywhere along the west coast to come screw up Utah.


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## Catherder

Vanilla said:


> I will reiterate, Utah is terrible. About 1 million people along the Wasatch Front ought to consider Colorado. It is way better for outdoor experiences and they don't have all the crazy conservatives to deal with.
> 
> I can help them all list their house, arrange for movers, etc. Happy to assist ASAP!


Absolutely true! But remember, true conservatives should get out of here too, while they still can. Look how our liberal governor and governor elect are making everybody wear masks. Who knows what they will do next?


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## Vanilla

Catherder said:


> Absolutely true! But remember, true conservatives should get out of here too, while they still can. Look how our liberal governor and governor elect are making everybody wear masks. Who knows what they will do next?


Yep. Exactly. I hear Colorado is very open for maskless freedom fighters. Moral of the story is this: Move to Colorado.


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## Critter

Vanilla said:


> Yep. Exactly. I hear Colorado is very open for maskless freedom fighters. Moral of the story is this: Move to Colorado.


You've been listing to ducks farting under water again.

This liberal government that we have over here is close to shutting the state down again. If you are near someone or in a place of business you have to have a mask on. A local NAPA store here tried to get away with their clerks not wearing mask. It worked fine until someone turned them into the mask police.

I actually think that a few of these do gooders over here need to move to Utah and help you folks out on voting a few things into law. Let's see, background checks for every firearm purchase, no magazines over 10 rounds, MJ legalized for personal uses no prescription needed, and the big one wolves.

There are a few nice things. No state ran liquor stores, grocery stores can sell full strength beer, lottery, scratch and sniff games, did I mention Mega Millions, Power Ball, and a state lottery?


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## backcountry

I hear Colorado is also the new mecca for the Brotherhood of Hourly Billing. Elk the size of stegasaurus. You can hunt Canada Geese from your front door. Almost no traffic. Not to mention I know you really miss the OR Show deep down 😜


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## Critter

backcountry said:


> I hear Colorado is also the new mecca for the Brotherhood of Hourly Billing. Elk the size of stegasaurus. You can hunt Canada Geese from your front door. Almost no traffic. Not to mention I know you really miss the OR Show deep down &#128540;


Well, I don't know about most of the above except there are some nicer bulls but like Utah it takes from birth to SS before you can hunt them. Traffic is a bear except where I live but it is getting bad at 8am and 430pm, and I can hunt geese out of my back yard as they fly from the river up to the golf course to feed every morning. I just need to figure out where to shoot them so that they land in my yard and not one of my neighbors. They get a little upset when I jump the fence to retrieve one.

As a matter of fact I would still be in Utah if the company that I worked for hadn't told me that I didn't have a job with them anymore due to downsizing. But the scary thing is that I actually liked living in the Provo/Orem area until I went to work down in Cedar/St. George, and then transferred to Price.


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## wyogoob

Uh.....FYI.... 

If you move to Evingston yer still in Utah.


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## Catherder

Critter said:


> I actually think that a few of these do gooders over here need to move to Utah and help you folks out on voting a few things into law.


Nonsense. You guys need an infusion of anti mask warriors to balance that crowd out. Heaven knows we have plenty to spare here.

Aww, heck you can have a bunch of our liberals too. Equal opportunity.


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## 2full

From what I've heard over the years.If you move to Rock Springs you are in Hell ?? :shock:


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## wyogoob

2full said:


> From what I've heard over the years.If you move to Rock Springs you are in Hell ?? :shock:


Rock Springs is the new Evingston and it is in Wyoming.


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## backcountry

I read the guidebook and saying New and Evingston in the same sentence or even paragraph is explicitly verboten.


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## CPAjeff

wyogoob said:


> Uh.....FYI....
> 
> If you move to Evingston yer still in Utah.


A few years ago I stopped at the Walmart in Evanston where an older lady was working in the checkout line (this was back when they still asked to see a person's id when swiping a card).

Anyway, after seeing my Utah drivers license, she proceeded to tell me how much she hated Utah and couldn't wait to move far away when the opportunity presented itself. After hearing this, I couldn't contain my sarcasm and noted that she sure moved a long ways away from Utah... She told me to go do something to myself that would be blocked if repeated here! Good times!!


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## wyogoob

CPAjeff said:


> A few years ago I stopped at the Walmart in Evanston where an older lady was working in the checkout line (this was back when they still asked to see a person's id when swiping a card).
> 
> Anyway, after seeing my Utah drivers license, she proceeded to tell me how much she hated Utah and couldn't wait to move far away when the opportunity presented itself. After hearing this, I couldn't contain my sarcasm and noted that she sure moved a long ways away from Utah... She told me to go do something to myself that would be blocked if repeated here! Good times!!


 Uh...was she a short attractive blond with hair down to her waist?
.


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## CPAjeff

wyogoob said:


> Uh...was she a short attractive blond with hair down to her waist?
> .


No sir, she was an unattractive lady with short gray hair.


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## colorcountrygunner

CPAjeff said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...was she a short attractive blond with hair down to her waist?
> .
> 
> 
> 
> No sir, she was an unattractive lady with short gray hair.
Click to expand...

 I call dibs!


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## Vanilla

Moral of the story: Utahns really need to consider moving to Colorado. It's a paradise in every way, unlike this crap hole we have going on here.


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## Rasster

I just moved to this place and I love it here. But I don't know too much about Utah yet.


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