# Safe Failure



## Springville Shooter

Just wanted to share what's going on with my Cannon gun safe both as information, and as a last ditch effort to see if anyone has any experience/ideas.

I have a Cannon gun safe with the electronic touchpad entry. I bought the safe in 2000 and it has worked flawlessly requiring only one battery change in that time. Last week I attempted to open the safe and it would not open. After punching in the combo, I hear the solenoid click, but the handle remains locked. 

I called Cannon and went through all possibilities with them to no avail. I then called a locksmith. He inspected the safe and confirmed my suspicion that the internal solenoid is likely shot and is no longer lifting the locking lug. He stated that he had seen it before and that there was no other recourse other than to drill the safe. His estimate for drilling and repair is basically the replacement cost of the safe. I called Cannon again and they confirmed that there was no other way into the safe given the conditions. 

As a last ditch effort, I am wiring a couple batteries in parallel in order to supply a more robust 9v current to the mechanism in hopes that I can get the weak solenoid to lift one last time. Not sure that this is even feasible considering the probability that supply voltage is likely regulated within internal circuitry but at this point I have nothing to lose. 

Unless someone has another suggestion, I will be taking a cutting wheel to my safe soon. 

Cannon informed me that the 'Lifetime Warranty' included parts only and that it didn't cover any of the repairs. The locksmith said that he sees this problem very frequently with touchpad safes.....bummer.-------SS


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## swbuckmaster

That sucks thanks for the heads up

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## Fowlmouth

If it makes you feel any better the dials have problems too. My brother had to get a locksmith to drill his safe. It is expensive as you said.


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## DallanC

Tap the outside of the door with a hammer when you are activating it, maybe its hanging somewhere and a tap at the right time might free it up. Like you said, nothing to loose at this point.


-DallanC


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## Critter

I have never heard of any problems with the mechanical dial type of safes but anything mechanical can go bad. A pin could fall out on the release mechanism and not allow you to pull the locking bolts out or something else could happen. But that is one reason I recommend to people that want to purchase a safe to go with the mechanical dial instead of the touch pad. But who knows. 

It is too bad that fixing the unlocking mechanism is as expensive as getting a new safe, but you still have the problem of getting your firearms and everything else out if you don't hire the locksmith to just open it. I am going to have to look at mine and see if I could perhaps use a cutting wheel on a grinder to cut the locking bolts off where I could then remove the door. I know that it would be a lot of work and would destroy the safe but if you could do it yourself you would save some bucks to put towards a new safe. 

SS let us know what you end up doing.


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## Bax*

Oh that sucks big time.

I guess the good news is that you will get to see how hard it is to break into your safe.

I am just thinking aloud here - but I wonder if you could use a magnet to force the solenoid back once you have entered the combo on your safe to deactivate the solenoid? I know that it will work in certain situations, but I am not sure if it will work when you have a thick steel door between the solenoid and the magnet. It'd definitely need to be a powerful magnet though.

Solenoids work off of the same theory as magnetism so in my mind, it should be possible.


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## Bax*

I just found a video showing that it can be done!

http://lock-picking.wonderhowto.com/news/safe-cracking-made-stupid-easy-just-use-magnet-0168427/

hope this helps!


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## swbuckmaster

Wow that video is interesting 

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## swbuckmaster

It honestly wouldn't suprise me if you could open the safe with a magnet and the lock smith wants to charge you an arm and a leg to destroy the safe and he knows full well the magnetic trick works. 

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## Springville Shooter

Headed to town for a magnet now. Stay tuned.........-----SS


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## Critter

Don't forget the grinder with a metal cutting disk if the magnet doesn't work.


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## Springville Shooter

I already have instructions from the locksmith of where to cut in case I can't get it open and decide to destroy it. I should be in within ten minutes. Been working the magnet for an hour with no luck. I think that the door might be too thick. The magnet is powerful though. I can't remove it from the safe by hand! Not looking good mi amigos.------SS


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## Bax*

I hope you put it in a sock to make it easier to pull / slide across the metal?

I was really hoping that would work :sad:

It could also be that the solenoid location is different?


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## Springville Shooter

Bax* said:


> I hope you put it in a sock to make it easier to pull / slide across the metal?
> 
> I was really hoping that would work :sad:
> 
> It could also be that the solenoid location is different?


I'm not giving up yet. Not sure exactly where the solenoid is but know its within 4" from the touch panel because that's the area where there is hardened steel back plating. I'm trying different areas around the dial and handle while entering the combo.....hoping to hear that loud click!! By the way, this sucks. No more electronic safes for me.------SS


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## Critter

With your experience I am going to pull the inner door panel off of mine and take a hard look at the locking mechanism as a just in case something like this ever happens to me. 

And I have a dial and mechanical system on mine. I may even draw up a diagram of where I would need to cut a access panel if ever needed. 

Good luck.


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## Springville Shooter

2 9v batteries wired in parallel made a decidedly louder click and I got really excited......still didn't open. Still working the magnets but not looking good. About ready to go commando on this thing.--------SS


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## 35whelen

Good luck! Hoping for best possible outcome for you


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## johnnycake

Springville Shooter said:


> 2 9v batteries wired in parallel made a decidedly louder click and I got really excited......still didn't open. Still working the magnets but not looking good. About ready to go commando on this thing.--------SS


err...far be it from me to tell you how to dress in your own house...but having used a grinding wheel on metal before I would not consider going commando while doing so. You caught me, I'm a wimp in this regard. I just can't stand the smell of burnt hair and overcooked oysters, not to mention over-charred sausages.


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## Critter

If you prepare the area before you start using a cutting wheel the most it is going to do is smell up the place. 

I have use both a grinder and cutting wheel inside of homes and all I needed were a couple of tarps to contain the sparks and grit and a fire extinguisher close by as a just in case along with the normal safety gear.


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## Fowlmouth

Steve Fransen A1 Safe & Vault 801-787-8324


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## sawsman

Bummer Shooter. Hope it works out for you.

I've never really thought about this until I saw this thread. 

Good luck!


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## Critter

If you do decide to cut a hole in the safe we do need pictures of it.


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## Springville Shooter

Critter said:


> If you do decide to cut a hole in the safe we do need pictures of it.


I will. I could tell the locksmith felt sorry for me and he was very helpful in telling me where to cut to avoid the reinforced areas. I set my skil saw up with a metal blade and drilled same test holes to see how hard the plate steel was. Should go like butter.

Cannon is sending replacement parts and I plan on cutting a nice hole that could easily be welded and repainted. While I have no further interest in the safe, I might try to fix it up to give to someone who can't afford one. I've done enough research now that I'm sure I can replace the broken innards. A little welding, grinding, and painting and it would be operational once again.

.......or I'll just take it to the dump.--------SS


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## longbow

Is there any member here that has the same safe? Maybe they can open theirs, take off the panel and see where the solenoid is. Maybe they can take a picture and post it. It's a long shot I know.


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## DallanC

Critter said:


> If you do decide to cut a hole in the safe we do need pictures of it.


Cut a hole through the back! Then when you slide the safe back up against the wall thieves wont know about it. Save you the cost of a new safe :mrgreen:

-DallanC


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## Vanilla

Ouch. This is a bummer. Sorry to hear it!


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## KineKilla

IF you were able to unlock it magnetically or even simply with a grinder then how safe could it really be?

Unfortunately this is one of those situations where not being able to get into it easily is a good testament to the safes' security. I have often seen these types of safes on sale and wondered what would happen if the batteries died....I guess I now know.


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## DallanC

KineKilla said:


> IF you were able to unlock it magnetically or even simply with a grinder then how safe could it really be?


Oh you can open virtually any safe in minutes with a grinder / cuttoff wheel.






-DallanC


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## Critter

KineKilla said:


> IF you were able to unlock it magnetically or even simply with a grinder then how safe could it really be?


Most crooks do not want to take the time or make the noise that a grinder or a magnetically unlock is going to take.

Granted there are some that don't care or have learned from the YouTube videos just what they need to do but they still don't want to take that extra time to do it. If it doesn't open with just a turn of the handle or something simple they will grab that 50" big screen TV and your computer and head out the door.


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## NVDuckin

KineKilla said:


> IF you were able to unlock it magnetically or even simply with a grinder then how safe could it really be?
> 
> Unfortunately this is one of those situations where not being able to get into it easily is a good testament to the safes' security. I have often seen these types of safes on sale and wondered what would happen if the batteries died....I guess I now know.


Unless you're spending some serious money, like $5k+, most safes can be easily defeated with couple of power tools in a very short period of time. If you're bored, look up some youtube videos and watch how fast guys who know what they are doing can tear into one.


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## Bax*

Kine,

I understand your point. Most safes aren't going to provide absolute protection but they should severely impede someone trying to gain access.

99.99999% of thieves will not carry a grinder or drill to cut into a safe as it will draw far too much attention to their actions and will take too much time.

From what I am reading - it appears that the magnet solution will only work on quality safes whose solenoids have failed _if_ the electronics partially disengage the solenoid. If the solenoid is fully engaged, the odds of success dramatically decrease but are not improbable. Obviously I have never done this personally and I am relying on what I am reading on the webnet.


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## Springville Shooter

Well, using a drill with a quality step bit and a saws-all with a metal blade it took me 11 minutes to open my safe. I could have done it in half that time if I had used my skil saw with a metal wheel. I chose the saws-all to eliminate the spark shower.------SS


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## KineKilla

Springville Shooter said:


> Well, using a drill with a quality step bit and a saws-all with a metal blade it took me 11 minutes to open my safe. I could have done it in half that time if I had used my skil saw with a metal wheel. I chose the saws-all to eliminate the spark shower.------SS


The fact that you had to resort to cutting your way into your own safe makes me sad. The fact that you now have access to all of your stuff makes me happy.


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## Bax*

So now we know how long it takes to break into a gun safe. 

Does anyone know what the average police response time is for a break-in? :mrgreen:


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## DallanC

Cool, now tear open the door and show us what went wrong with the solenoid.


-DallanC


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## hondodawg

You know you still might be able to use it for storage? Place to keep maybe reloading Dies, ammo etc....I have Costco junker safe and mine won't lock back up unless I slam it a few times. 


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## Critter

I thought that I just saw a slightly used Cannon gun safe for sale on KSL a few minutes ago. //dog//


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## NVDuckin

Bax* said:


> So now we know how long it takes to break into a gun safe.
> 
> Does anyone know what the average police response time is for a break-in? :mrgreen:


Well according to this article, I hope no one here is relying on the SLC department: https://www.ksl.com/?sid=39555387&nid=148


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## Springville Shooter

hondodawg said:


> You know you still might be able to use it for storage? Place to keep maybe reloading Dies, ammo etc....I have Costco junker safe and mine won't lock back up unless I slam it a few times.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm going to keep it. The door mechanism still works great and I didn't damage any of the insulation. I will likely weld a piece of plate steel over the hole and use it for powder and ammunition storage.

I removed the bolt mechanism in tact and entered the combo. The weak solenoid barely moved the bolt latch and was simply too weak to fully dis-engage it.

For fun, I worked the magnet directly against the solenoid/bolt assembly and could never get it to move. Looks like the magnet trick is limited to very low end safes.

Good news is that my old safe will fit inside the new one.........

Thanks to all those who pitched in ideas throughout my safe debacle.-----SS


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## bowgy

I did some research and these so called gun safes are just sheet metal boxes with a pretty good lock.

Real safes costs thousands more and are plate steel rated not gauge steel like 12 or 14 gauge, they are 1/2 inch or more plate steel. They are also a lot heavier because of the amount of steel.


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## Critter

The big thing is that I doubt that if your home is broken into that the crook is going to be packing a grinder with a metal cutting blade or a sawsall with him. If he takes the time he might find one in the garage but the thing is the time involved in looking for these tool and he would be more likely to take the tool to pawn than to use it to break into a gun safe. 

Now if the crook knows that you have firearms in your home inside of a gun safe then he might just bring the tools that he needs to get into it. But then there is a lot more planning by the crook and the odds are he would take the whole safe out of your front door than to work on it inside the home. 

But then your neighbors might notice something when a moving van pulls up in your driveway.


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## DallanC

I mentioned in the past a friend of the family went on a several week hunting trip to China, when he got back thieves had broken in, found his safes in the basement, cut a hole in the living room with a chainsaw, then winched the safes up out of the hole and into their truck. His house wasn't super visible from the road hence them having the time to pull this off.

Honestly with todays tech, motion cameras and cell phone updates, a safe just has to protect the items for 30 minutes or so while the cops arrive.

If you want super protection, then I think you need to put in a cement vault. If I ever get to build a house, I'll put a vault under the garage floor with some nifty sliding bookcase or something inside the house to hide the door.


-DallanC


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## Fowlmouth

DallanC said:


> If you want super protection, then I think you need to put in a cement vault. If I ever get to build a house, I'll put a vault under the garage floor with some nifty sliding bookcase or something inside the house to hide the door.
> -DallanC


I wanted to do this in my new house. I have a 4'x14' cement vault under my front porch. Nope, didn't happen...Momma wanted food storage. You know how that goes.


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## DallanC

Fowlmouth said:


> I wanted to do this in my new house. I have a 4'x14' cement vault under my front porch. Nope, didn't happen...Momma wanted food storage. You know how that goes.


My wife has more of her own guns than she can comfortably carry... I can sell her on the idea 

-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter

I have a cement vault built into my basement. Just need a vault door. Not cheap.------SS


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## Critter

Springville Shooter said:


> I have a cement vault built into my basement. Just need a vault door. Not cheap.------SS


You have the door now, all you need to do is to reinforce it with some 1/2" plate and figure out the mounting on the hinges.


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## Bax*

Question-

Have you tried the magnet now that you know exactly where the solenoid is located?


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## Kevin D

My cousin Guido can help walk you through the process of breaking into any safe, though it's likely to be another 1 to 5 years before he has an opening in his schedule.....:?


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## Springville Shooter

Bax* said:


> Question-
> 
> Have you tried the magnet now that you know exactly where the solenoid is located?


Yes, I tried the magnet both from the outside plate and directly against the solenoid/bolt mechanism. I could never get the bolt to move.

If anyone else decides to mess with these powerful magnets, watch your fingers when getting them near metal as you are not strong enough to to control their rate of attachment. --------SS


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## Loke

Springville Shooter said:


> If anyone else decides to mess with these powerful magnets, watch your fingers when getting them near metal as you are not strong enough to to control their rate of attachment. --------SS


Pics?


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## Springville Shooter

Let me know what you wanna see and I'll post some pics.------SS


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## Clarq

Springville Shooter said:


> Let me know what you wanna see and I'll post some pics.------SS


If only my girlfriend were so accommodating...


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## Springville Shooter

Clarq said:


> If only my girlfriend were so accommodating...


Have you tried flowers? I'm sure that many on this forum have advice for you on this matter and it will probably create a conversation that is much more entertaining and has a happier ending than my safe debacle.-----SS


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## Critter

Clarq said:


> If only my girlfriend were so accommodating...





Springville Shooter said:


> Have you tried flowers? I'm sure that many on this forum have advice for you on this matter and it will probably create a conversation that is much more entertaining and has a happier ending than my safe debacle.-----SS


That is unless his girlfriend had something that she wanted that was located inside of a safe that was being a pain in the rear to open


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## Springville Shooter

Bump for Al Hansen


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## Al Hansen

Thanks. Not good. I own one of the key pads. Might investigate a change over to the mechanical for myself. Who woulda thought !!!!!


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## 2full

I have played in/with safes since about '79, being in retail. 
We are in and out of it 2-3 dozen times a day at least. Have always had the dial safes. 
Even the dial safes have problems. Over the years have had to have a safe drilled 4 times. 
Had one that was in a brand new store that had to be drilled twice in the first year.

I guess we got a lemon.


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## DallanC

When I was in the market for a new safe a while ago I did some research into various brands and found the Winchesters are made in China. Remington was made locally by Liberty Safes. 

We ended up going with a Liberty due to the sale they had on them (fantastic deal). Liberty had a lifetime warranty on the digital locking system so I really dont worry about it. 

My older Remington has a dial combo, the newer Liberty has keypad. The keypad is sooo much easier to use than a dial. I've actually thought about converting over the dial to electronic out of convenience but atm, I dont think its worth the money. I do have to go grab the reading glasses to get into it though... the biggest negative. I can get into the Liberty with a pinky finger while holding arms full of stuff.


-DallanC


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