# Leaving barrel dirty?



## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

So my new Browning x-bolt always sends the first shot high and right. Then all other shots are dead on hot or cold barrel. So I assume it's the clean barrel that causes the first shot flyer. My question is how long can I leave a barrel dirty without damaging it? It's a stainless steel barrel I would like to leave it dirty for my up and coming elk hunt but don't want to ruin the rifle. A couple of weeks or a month okay?
Allen


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I never clean until groups start to open up. Some of my better rifles I dont clean in under 100 or so rounds. Some need frequent cleaning. All require a few fouling shots to dial back in after cleaning EXCEPT for my smokepoles. Those I want first shot = clean barrel accuracy.

My wifes new Weatherby Camilia needs 10 shots after cleaning to settle back down to tight groups. I only cleaned it more frequently due to the mythical "break-in" period, but frankly if it takes almost a dozen rounds to settle it down after cleaning, I'm done cleaning it until it opens to 2MOA. Thats probably going to be quite a few rounds down the road.

-DallanC


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

DallanC said:


> I never clean until groups start to open up. Some of my better rifles I dont clean in under 100 or so rounds. Some need frequent cleaning. All require a few fouling shots to dial back in after cleaning EXCEPT for my smokepoles. Those I want first shot = clean barrel accuracy.
> 
> My wifes new Weatherby Camilia needs 10 shots after cleaning to settle back down to tight groups. I only cleaned it more frequently due to the mythical "break-in" period, but frankly if it takes almost a dozen rounds to settle it down after cleaning, I'm done cleaning it until it opens to 2MOA. Thats probably going to be quite a few rounds down the road.
> 
> -DallanC


What it the timeline between your cleaning.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Depends on copper fouling build up, not time. I don't understand the point of repeatedly cleaning an already accurate barrel. When too much fouling affects groups, then its time to clean. If I'm shooting alot, it will be alot more frequently... some hunting rifles I might go 10 years between cleaning if I dont shoot them alot and they are holding MOA. I do run a patch of oil down the barrels before storing, but that's just to help slow down oxidation of the copper.

My rifle with the highest shot count is my heavy barrel 22-250 with approx 3,400 rounds down the tube. That one gets cleaned every couple hundred rounds. My most accurate load is still sub MOA.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

On my recent trip to Africa I shot 40 rounds through my rifle and didn't clean it until I got home.

My PH borrowed it and took a 300+ yards hot at a cull bleastbuck and dropped him like a rock with a head shot.

When I cleaned it I was surprised at how little fowleing was in the barrel. All shots through it were Barnes TTSX bullets.

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

I'm with Dallan. I only clean when groups open up. And by clean, I mean clean the barrel. I still wipe it down and give the moving bits some love. I used to clean religiously until I had a Weatherby Vanguard in 25-06 I couldn't get to group. Finally got so frustrated after a long range day that I didn't clean it. Just put it back in the safe and was thinking it was time to put it up for sale. I decided to give it one more chance with a new ammo. It shot ok, but not good enough to keep IMO. So I decided to burn the rest of the ammo before I sent it down the road.
The longer I shot, the tighter the groups got. Ammo that previously was grouping around 2-3" was suddenly tightening up to 1.5" and now shoots less than 1" 5 shot groups. I won't clean that tube until they open back up. And that was probably 300 rounds ago.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm in agreement with Dallan as well. I hate having to resight all the time. I don't shoot a whole lot like some of you guys. Other than my .243. That one I do clean a little more often. Bit, I don't go crazy about it. My guns have always worked quite well for me. I hit what I aim at.... 😎

Oh ya, and I ALWAYS take a fouling shot in my muzzleloader before hunting. Then clean it after hunt is done. But, I never shoot much during the hunt. I don't take the crazy long shots like some guys. Usually only takes a shot or two. 😁


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I generally clean my rifle at the end of each hunting season. Then the next year start shooting again and don't clean it until the end of the year again.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

This is eye opening to me. I was taught to clean the barrel after every outing... Looks like I have another excuse for my poor shooting!!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Especially with todays ammo prices. The ammo I'm going to use on my moose hunt for my 7STW, is Remington Safari-Grade Swift A-Frames. That stuff is over $150 a box now... if you could find any. They stopped making it around 2010. I had 3 unopened boxes. I'm being mighty stingy with it atm, not wasting a shell.

-DallanC


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## westcanyonranch (9 mo ago)

I agree with a lot of the opinions of the others in that I have always just thought clean=accurate. Interesting take for sure that I am going to need to play around with a little.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Looking at a few other forums, cleaning as needed is indeed the prevailing wisdom. Learned something new today. I put 10-12 rounds through my .308 each time I'm out, so I'm probably barely breaking the barrel back in after each cleaning.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

What it comes down to is that you need to decided for yourself if you need to clean it after every outing or if you can wait and fire more shots through it. 

As I mentioned my .340 Weatherby is good with a dirty barrel, it is also good with a clean barrel. Same with my Weatherby Vanguard 25-06, it doesn't matter clean or dirty.


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## bthewilde (Feb 8, 2018)

DallanC said:


> I never clean until groups start to open up. Some of my better rifles I dont clean in under 100 or so rounds. Some need frequent cleaning. All require a few fouling shots to dial back in after cleaning EXCEPT for my smokepoles. Those I want first shot = clean barrel accuracy.
> 
> My wifes new Weatherby Camilia needs 10 shots after cleaning to settle back down to tight groups. I only cleaned it more frequently due to the mythical "break-in" period, but frankly if it takes almost a dozen rounds to settle it down after cleaning, I'm done cleaning it until it opens to 2MOA. Thats probably going to be quite a few rounds down the road.
> 
> -DallanC


This was going to be my reply as well, if the spread gets squirrly it's time to clean!


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## Blacdog (Nov 24, 2019)

Knock the high spots down and leave it alone


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## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

I still do the urban legend 20 shot hyper ultra mega cleaning ritual for the first box and after a sight in with the second box I call it broke in after 40 shots. I only clean my barrel when snow or dirt gets in my barrel now. If my groups start looking like turkey shot pattern then I’ll just throw the gun off a cliff yell some obscenities and blame the first person that makes me mad, $&%# !+ why not 🤷🏼‍♂️😆


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## bsevans5 (Dec 13, 2017)

tough now days to get to know a barrel. The price of ammo and testing out what works best...experimenting with cleaning frequently, shooting a dirty barrel, etc. It can really add up.


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## jlofthouse16 (Oct 18, 2021)

Do a bore sight. On a clean barrel the first shot does not count. So deliberately hold to the side and shoot one. Now you can hold on target and shoot 5 and see where the average is. Now adjust sights if needed. I like to sight in so the group is about 2.5 inches high at 100 yards. This puts it on at 200 yards and about 3.5 inches low at 300 yards. So for deer sized animals you don't need to worry about trajectory up to 300 yards. (Ya oughta not be shootin at a deer beyond those distances anyway.)


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

jlofthouse16 said:


> Ya oughta not be shootin at a deer beyond those distances anyway.


I'm curious as to your reasoning for this? Do you have a factual reason for making that statement? I'm not trying to be aggressive, I just find it frustrating that people try to inject their own ethics onto others. Just because you don't shoot past 300 yards doesn't mean you need to tell others not to. 

I shot my buck across canyon at 476 yards last year, and my elk at 640 yards. Would being closer make them more dead?


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## Blacdog (Nov 24, 2019)

IMO Most hunters that shoot at game farther than there skill or equipment is capable of miss the animal completely.


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## jlofthouse16 (Oct 18, 2021)

justismi28 said:


> I'm curious as to your reasoning for this? Do you have a factual reason for making that statement? I'm not trying to be aggressive, I just find it frustrating that people try to inject their own ethics onto others. Just because you don't shoot past 300 yards doesn't mean you need to tell others not to.
> 
> I shot my buck across canyon at 476 yards last year, and my elk at 640 yards. Would being closer make them more dead?


All I can say is: You are one hell of a shot. Or a damned liar! Do as you will.......


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

jlofthouse16 said:


> All I can say is: You are one hell of a shot. Or a damned liar! Do as you will.......


LOL I'm an average shot, but I am not a liar. I just take the time to learn my rifle and load through a lot of practice. 

But I honestly wanted to know if there as a factual reasoning for your limitation of 300 yards? Bullet construction technology, powder burn rate consistency, and even manufacturer tolerances on stock rifles have all got better over the years. From all my experience and learning, there isn't a scientific\factual reason to limit to 300 yards if you have the ability and confidence to shoot further. With scope tracking and repeatability, if you practice, 400 yards with a .300 win mag is a pretty straight forward shot in calm conditions. 

That said, for a lot of people 300 yards is beyond their ethical limit. But these are the people who buy a rifle package from cabelas or wal-mart, go shoot a box of core-lokts at 100 yards and are happy with all the shots just hitting the target. 

I appreciate your sentiment, and I think it's great to understand the ethical boundaries of your personal skill. I just don't understand why people try to push their ethics on others. This is like the technology committee looking at scopes that "dial" with exposed turrets.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

*jlofthouse*: On a scope with duplex crosshairs... the ones that are thin at the center of a scope, and thicken a short distance from the center, are precisely designed made this way. This is called the "subtend" of a scope. Most people call the bottom line of the crosshairs the "Post".

That distance from the center to where they thicken is designed to be 4MOA for the majority of scopes. That's 4" at 100 yards.

So, simple math, at 400 yards its 4MOA per 100 yards = 4 * 4" = 16". So at 400 yards, if you put the crosshairs dead on a target, the bottom post where it starts to thicken is 16" below where you aim.

Why does this matter? Well, if your gun ballistics and how you have it sighted in are say, 20" low at 400 yards... you simply use the point where the bottom post starts to thicken as your aim point instead of the crosshairs. This would put your bullet 4" below the point of aim... at 400 yards. The amount the bullet is above and below the top of the bottom post varies according to ammunition, the velocity, ballistic coefficent of the bullet etc etc. So each individual rifle has to be tested independently but it certainly not magic to be able to hit targets that far off.

My 7STW is 3.5 inches high at 400 yards using the bottom post, and its right at 4.5" low using the bottom post at 500 yards (because at 500 yards using 4MOA per 100 yards = 4 * 5 = 20" below the crosshairs at 500 yards).

Also, you can use the distance from the center of the crosshairs to the tip of the bottom post as a quick range finding tool. As you know its 16" at 400... you put your crosshair on the tip of a bucks back, and look at the bottom post. Most deer are 16-18" deep on the chest, so if the buck fills the gap, its under 400 yards, if it doesnt fill the gap its over.

Better Leupold scopes from the 1960s and 1970s actually have range finding built into the zoom, the idea is you adjust the zoom so the buck perfectly fits the distance between the crosshair and post, then you just read the value stamped on the scope zoom.

Side note, you can also use the horizontal distance as windage adjustment aids... if you know the MOA of the wind drift at whatever yards the target is. That distance is also 4MOA for most scopes.

Fun stuff... super old school... yet its surprising how many hunters don't have a clue about this stuff. They want turrets to fart around with and adjust to get that precise shot.

-DallanC


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

DallanC said:


> *jlofthouse*: On a scope with duplex crosshairs... the ones that are thin at the center of a scope, and thicken a short distance from the center, are precisely designed made this way. This is called the "subtend" of a scope. Most people call the bottom line of the crosshairs the "Post".
> 
> That distance from the center to where they thicken is designed to be 4MOA for the majority of scopes. That's 4" at 100 yards.
> 
> ...


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

Okay I tried the dirty barrel over the weekend. Fired eight shots the first five about a three inch group the last three were touching at 100 yards. Let the rifle cool for 45 minutes or so barrel was cold to the touch or as cold as it could get being 80 degrees out. Fired three more rounds they were touching each other right were I wanted them. I feel I'm ready to hunt now leaving barrel dirty/ fouled. I will go to the range one more time to confirm.
Allen


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I shot my gun for the last time Saturday before the hunt in a few weeks. 5/8" group dead nuts center. GTG!

-DallanC


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## jlofthouse16 (Oct 18, 2021)

yak4fish said:


> Okay I tried the dirty barrel over the weekend. Fired eight shots the first five about a three inch group the last three were touching at 100 yards. Let the rifle cool for 45 minutes or so barrel was cold to the touch or as cold as it could get being 80 degrees out. Fired three more rounds they were touching each other right were I wanted them. I feel I'm ready to hunt now leaving barrel dirty/ fouled. I will go to the range one more time to confirm.
> Allen


Have a great hunt!


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## jlofthouse16 (Oct 18, 2021)

Looks like you are ready to go. Have a great hunt.


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

Rifle held true for my hunt with dirty barrel.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Great looking bull - congrats!!


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

Shoot until the rifle tells you it needs a cleaning


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

ns450f said:


> Shoot until the rifle tells you it needs a cleaning


You do that and you may miss the shot of a lifetime.

You need to learn what your rifle likes. But you do need to clean it and not wait until the shots start to open up. It's fine if it starts to open up at the range but if you are hunting you could be in trouble 

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

These days, I don’t clean my rifles often at all. I find they tend to shoot very well with a fouled barrel.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I simply do NOT believe that the inconsistency of a dirty barrel will lead to more accuracy. Please show me the science, the studies, the tests. Even looking at it logically, it makes no sense. No, your gun is not special or one of a kind, it will not shoot more "consistently" with the inconsistency of a dirty barrel. You go out and shoot a few rounds from the bench and you finally hit a bulls eye on the third shot and conclude that it was the dirty barrel that brought about the perfect shot...no...it just happened that way. Each shot you take makes the barrel more dirty, more fouled...makes it a "different" barrel if you will. Every target shooter knows that consistency in every single aspect of shooting brings about the best overall results from shot to shot. Change one little thing...bullet weight, case capacity, powder charge, velocity, wind direction, temperature, ANY THING, and you change the point of impact, maybe not a lot, but it does change. So go ahead, shoot with a dirty barrel if you want, in real life hunting it probably will not make much of a difference, but don't go thinking it was because you didn't clean your rifle properly that you hit that deer.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

BPturkeys said:


> Every target shooter knows that consistency in every single aspect of shooting brings about the best overall results from shot to shot.


This is interesting, and makes sense, but flies in the face of what I’ve been told by actual competition long range shooters. Guys that have money and rep on the line and need to make a perfect shot when it counts in the competitive target shooting community.

Well, I’ve actually only spoken to one, so my sample size is not real big. He is not cleaning his barrels constantly to keep consistently, but allowing them to foul. In fact, his specific advice for hunting is to get your gun dialed in early in the year then don’t do anything with it regarding cleaning until after all hunts are over.

We are talking rifles here, not MLs. The equation changes there.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> We are talking rifles here, not MLs. The equation changes there.


Wait! What? I thought muzzeloaders were just a single shot ALW. LOL


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

BPturkeys said:


> I simply do NOT believe that the inconsistency of a dirty barrel will lead to more accuracy. Please show me the science, the studies, the tests. Even looking at it logically, it makes no sense. No, your gun is not special or one of a kind, it will not shoot more "consistently" with the inconsistency of a dirty barrel. You go out and shoot a few rounds from the bench and you finally hit a bulls eye on the third shot and conclude that it was the dirty barrel that brought about the perfect shot...no...it just happened that way. Each shot you take makes the barrel more dirty, more fouled...makes it a "different" barrel if you will. Every target shooter knows that consistency in every single aspect of shooting brings about the best overall results from shot to shot. Change one little thing...bullet weight, case capacity, powder charge, velocity, wind direction, temperature, ANY THING, and you change the point of impact, maybe not a lot, but it does change. So go ahead, shoot with a dirty barrel if you want, in real life hunting it probably will not make much of a difference, but don't go thinking it was because you didn't clean your rifle properly that you hit that deer.


How often are you cleaning your centerfire rifles?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

middlefork said:


> Wait! What? I thought muzzeloaders were just a single shot ALW. LOL


So you are suggesting you have to leave a 5-20 powered scope on you ML because you have to clean it more often?

Got it…makes sense!


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> This is interesting, and makes sense, but flies in the face of what I’ve been told by actual competition long range shooters. Guys that have money and rep on the line and need to make a perfect shot when it counts in the competitive target shooting community.
> 
> Well, I’ve actually only spoken to one, so my sample size is not real big. He is not cleaning his barrels constantly to keep consistently, but allowing them to foul. In fact, his specific advice for hunting is to get your gun dialed in early in the year then don’t do anything with it regarding cleaning until after all hunts are over.
> 
> We are talking rifles here, not MLs. The equation changes there.


You are actually correct in that some shooters allow a "consistent" level of fouling in their target rifles. But the key word here is "consistent". They normally have a very regimented procedure they follow. For example, they start with a perfect clean barrel, following the third shot they shoot the shot for record. They don't just keep shooting and shooting and allow the barrel to become more and more fouled in an attempt to find what level of fouling is best. Once they determine what level of fouling, if any, that that particular barrel preforms best, they are meticulous in taking the for record shot at that level and follow a strict procedure to obtain it.
If you have shot your rifle enough to really know that, for example, it shoots it's best shot after two rounds, then I would recommend you take a couple shots before you go hunting and reserve that third, "good" shot for that nice buck standing out there a couple hundred yards. Happy hunting


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## jlofthouse16 (Oct 18, 2021)

OK I open eyes, shut mouth, go sit in corner. I only been hunting and shooting for 76 years and have not learned enough to be off any help to this elite group.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

waspocrew said:


> How often are you cleaning your centerfire rifles?


Don't shoot much any more but I always clean and lube them after every use. I recommend for the average hunter he keeps his rifles clean. If you are that rare guy that has determined his/her rifle shoots it's best shot, say after being fired a couple time(partially fouled), then by all means take a couple shots prior to the hunt.


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## 2pntkiller (10 mo ago)

Cleaning your barrels is ok if you wear a flat brim and skinny jeans shooting a 6.5 lazer creedmoure


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## jlofthouse16 (Oct 18, 2021)

OMG it is your gun, do as you will. Frankly we don't need to hear about it!


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I clean mine after the hunt is over for sure. 
But I don't run back and clean it after every shot.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You guys dont shoot enough if you have time to clean it that often 

-DallanC


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

DallanC said:


> You guys dont shoot enough if you have time to clean it that often
> 
> -DallanC


It only takes one shot for the kill………


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You need to kill more things 

-DallanC


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

My wife would disagree with that concept !!
I've run out of places to put things after all these years. House and garage is full, cabin is full, and I have stuff in other people's houses and cabins. 
😁


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Some years ago, I took an advanced rifle marksmanship course offered by some guy who's military resume included SF. He conducted the class at that range out near Price. Fella passed awhile ago, I don't know if he was really former SF, but he seemed to know what he was talking about. In that course i learned a lot of things. (Half of which i've brain dumped from having not practiced it). How to range with mill dots, how to use known measurements like say the width of a door, not to wrap your thumb around the stock, etc etc. I've still got all the coursework tucked away in a desk drawer. Anyway, one of the things I remember him saying, was not to clean your rifle every time you shoot it. For some reason, 70 rounds through the barrel sticks in my head. Anyway, take this for what it's worth. I knew a guy who said he was this, and said that...

Personally, I'm lazy. I don't like cleaning my rifles every time I shoot them anyway. So he just gave me an excuse. With today's ammo prices, I don't shoot enough to really foul the barrels anyway.


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## jlofthouse16 (Oct 18, 2021)

2full said:


> My wife would disagree with that concept !!
> I've run out of places to put things after all these years. House and garage is full, cabin is full, and I have stuff in other people's houses and cabins.
> 😁


Seems you need to have a garage sale, then make a couple trips to the landfill.


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