# Legal Spike?



## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

Alright, what's your expert opinions. Is this a legal spike? I didn't think so, but I showed to picture to a friend and he thinks it is. Either way, I probably wouldn't want to leave it up to the game warden to decide. How many would notch their LE tag on this bull?


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## McFinnigan (Jan 29, 2016)

Take the chance!!! Ask for forgiveness later


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## Steve G (Nov 29, 2016)

From what I can see in the picture it meets the legal definition (no branch longer than one inch above the ear on one side) though probably not the spirit of the law.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Looks legal to me. That bull needs to go!


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

You'd be a brave man to shoot one like that but more power to you if you did!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Looks totally legal to me, I'd drop it no questions asked.


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## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

Perfectly legal. If you want to hunt it with a spike tag, take a picture to the game warden in the area and ask him.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

JC HUNTER said:


> Alright, what's your expert opinions. Is this a legal spike? I didn't think so, but I showed to picture to a friend and he thinks it is. Either way, I probably wouldn't want to leave it up to the game warden to decide. How many would notch their LE tag on this bull?
> 
> View attachment 117241


If you are serious about taking this bull with a spike tag please contact the division and get a ruling before harvesting this animal. This may be a slight inconvenience but it is the only way to be sure and probably worth the trouble since he's such a unique bull.

If this is more of just a hypothetical scenario then carry on.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Absolutely legal and a bull that needs out of the gene pool. Heck of a cool bull.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Looks like a legal bull to me in this photo-- Can't see the back side of spike to know if there is no point above the ear. 

And he meets the "spirit" of the law too. The restriction is in place to protect enough bulls to make it through to maturity. A side effect of the restriction is it protects the bulls that demonstrate the best genetics.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Packout said:


> Looks like a legal bull to me in this photo-- Can't see the back side of spike to know if there is no point above the ear.
> 
> And he meets the "spirit" of the law too. The restriction is in place to protect enough bulls to make it through to maturity. A side effect of the restriction is it protects the bulls that demonstrate the best genetics.


I don't disagree Packout. I can't help but think there is just enough uncertainty that perhaps an individual conservation officer might see it differently and cause you stress you don't need.

If it were me, and the opportunity presented itself, I would just make a call or show up at the DWR offices and make sure. Why not? Then you could say "Doug" said it was ok.

In fact I will go as far as to say "if in doubt" of any rule or wildlife related issue just make a phone call. Forums are fun for chatting but calling the DWR is anybody's best bet when uncertain.


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

JC HUNTER said:


> Alright, what's your expert opinions. Is this a legal spike? I didn't think so, but I showed to picture to a friend and he thinks it is. Either way, I probably wouldn't want to leave it up to the game warden to decide. How many would notch their LE tag on this bull?
> 
> View attachment 117241


I thought those things grew on the back of bulls not the front!:rotfl:


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## 3rd times a charm (Aug 27, 2017)

From that picture, yes it is a legal spike. As previously mentioned it is hard to tell cause you can't see the back side of the antler.

But the definition of the law is any branch above the ear. That means above the tip of the ear.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

hunting777 said:


> I thought those things grew on the back of bulls not the front!:rotfl:


that was the first thought i had. im glad im not the only one haha


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

bullsnot said:


> In fact I will go as far as to say "if in doubt" of any rule or wildlife related issue just make a phone call. Forums are fun for chatting but calling the DWR is anybody's best bet when uncertain.


One of the benefits of this is you might just get a DWR employee to tell you that you can use that spike tag to harvest a Rocky Mountain Bighorn sheep. You never know! 

Here is the definition of a spike in Utah:

_"Spike bull" means a bull elk which has at least one antler beam with no branching above the ears. Branched means a projection on an antler longer than one inch, measured from its base to its tip._

I am not exactly sure how to interpret the "above the ear" portion of that. Does the main beam have to project backward, as a normal antler would, to fit the definition? That main beam clearly branches beyond where the ear would extend if the elk laid his ear flat or had it pointing forward, following the direction of the main beam. Usually these "is it a legal spike" pictures are fairly easy to decide. This one seems like a tough call to me.


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

I was checking a 2nd memory card today and it looks like I have a few pictures of him on that one as well. This is the best angle I could get of him. If he's a legal spike than I will definitely try and notch the tag on him.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I would lean towards a legal spike but also wonder if the definition means that a spike (branch) originating below the ear could not be longer than the tip of the ear or if it means that the branch (split) just can't originate above the ear?

Basically, if a bull had a brow tine (originating below the top of the ear, but longer than the ear) but only a main single beam from there on, would it be a spike or a 2-point bull?

I think as long as any and all branching is done below the tip of said ear then it is a legal spike.

Forget spirit of the law...only definitions count in this game.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

From what I see he is legal. 

I would put his meat into the freezer and do a euro on the skull and antlers.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

KineKilla said:


> I would lean towards a legal spike but also wonder if the definition means that a spike (branch) originating below the ear could not be longer than the tip of the ear or if it means that the branch (split) just can't originate above the ear?


It just means that the branch (split) can't be above the ear. I still do not know what "above the ear" means in regards to positioning of the ear. From the second picture, it appears that if the bull laid his ear down flat, the branch would be beyond the tip of the ear. But I don't know if that even matters? If they mean that it cannot branch beyond the tip of the ear, I'd think it would say that. But then again, it would not be the first time that rule-makers drafted something that didn't say what they wanted it to say.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Imagine how good that would look on the wall...wow!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I'd smoke him on a spike tag, no hesitation what so ever. I've had more than a few convo's with fish cops in UT on this subject, and I was surprised at how all of them agreed every time on this issue. The branching has to occur at a height above the tip of the ear when the ears are ****ed at the "alert" pose. Because of this, brow tines don't disqualify a bull from being a spike (unless they fork non-typically above the height of the ear). 

My first muzzy spike hunt I passed on a 3x2 bull (hard to tell if it was a spike or a "fork" as there was a nub awfully close to 1" long near the top of that side). I ran into an officer later and described the bull, as it had two brows and a main beam on the one side and the spike-maybe-fork on the other. I was pretty shocked to hear him say that the brow tines didn't count and I could have shot the bull based on the 3 point side alone! Ever since then I try to bring this topic up with every new fish cop I see, and they all maintain the "alert" ear position and above is where the branching has to occur.


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

I called the DWR to see if I could e-mail the pics to a CO and get their opinion. She told me that the CO's wont determine if the bull is legal or not until it's dead and they can look at it in person. I also asked her to clarify the "above the ear" rule and she said it was based on the length of the ear not necessarily above the ear. She said it doesn't matter if the tine is growing down or not, if it branches past the length of the ear then it isn't legal.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

So confusing.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Nothing confusing about it. From what I see in the picture the antler doesn't branch above the elks ear. 

So he is a legal spike.


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## Tall Tines (Apr 16, 2017)

That bull is currently living on the nebo unit and yes he's legal. I have several trail cam photos of him. I know several guys who are gunning for him. If he doesn't get smoked by a bowhunter, his days will come to an end on the spike hunt. This isn't an "injury" thing. The nebo unit has this in it's genetics. I know of 4 bulls this year with the same type of antler configuration, and have heard of several others. Also have seen many over the last 10 or so years and been a part of harvesting a couple of them.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

JC HUNTER said:


> She said it doesn't matter if the tine is growing down or not, if it branches past the length of the ear then it isn't legal.


I think this is where the confusion is. Most people seem to interpret "above" as referring to height above ground level when the bull is standing. The DWR lady appears to interpret "above" as absolute length without regard to direction.

Going with the dictionary definition of "above", I think that height above ground level makes sense while the bull is alive and walking around. But, if you shoot that bull and strap its head to your pack upside-down, then all of a sudden it would have branching above its ears, if we're talking about elevation. The question then becomes: what geometric configurations do we have to consider when evaluating the requirements for a spike? Right-side up only?

Sounds like a mess to me. I'd personally let it walk because I don't want to deal with the consequences that could occur if someone saw it and tried to turn me in, or if a CO didn't understand the rules in the same way I did (although I think you could win in court if you were cited for taking it).

If I were able to rewrite the rules, I'd probably try to make the regulations a little more scientific. Maybe disqualify an animal from the spike definition if the longest beam branches more than 5 inches away from the antler base, or something like that.


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## Tall Tines (Apr 16, 2017)

"If it were me, and the opportunity presented itself, I would just make a call or show up at the DWR offices and make sure. Why not? Then you could say "Doug" said it was ok."

No what you do is have WLH call some nobody out of the price office, explain how this bull is definitely a spike, get their ok and shoot it. That way when you get turned in, you have WLH good name and reputation to back up your story on how "Doug" gave you the green light.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

JC HUNTER said:


> I called the DWR to see if I could e-mail the pics to a CO and get their opinion. She told me that the CO's wont determine if the bull is legal or not until it's dead and they can look at it in person. I also asked her to clarify the "above the ear" rule and she said it was based on the length of the ear not necessarily above the ear. She said it doesn't matter if the tine is growing down or not, if it branches past the length of the ear then it isn't legal.


You are much better off tracking down the CO for the unit and asking them in person. Betcha $10 he doesn't say the same thing as the gal on the phone and he says that bull looks like a legal spike if you show him the pics.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

I would dump him looks legal to me. As far as the book states anyways


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You have to figure that if you call the office you are going to get someone that is a clerk and not a enforcement officer. You can call 4 different offices and talk to 4 different people and get 4 different answers.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

All you are getting here is opinions. Read the rule and make the decision. 

The rule states--

A “bull elk” is an elk with antlers that are longer than
five inches (R657-5-2(2)(g)).
A “spike bull” means a bull elk which has at least
one antler beam with no branching above the ears.
Branched means a projection on an antler longer than
one inch, measured from its base to its tip (R657-5-
2(2)(r)

I wouldn't shoot a bull with 2 brows-- some are above and some are below the ear. Too much variation to chance it. 

..


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

johnnycake said:


> I'd smoke him on a spike tag, no hesitation what so ever. I've had more than a few convo's with fish cops in UT on this subject, and I was surprised at how all of them agreed every time on this issue. The branching has to occur at a height above the tip of the ear when the ears are ****ed at the "alert" pose. Because of this, brow tines don't disqualify a bull from being a spike (unless they fork non-typically above the height of the ear).
> 
> My first muzzy spike hunt I passed on a 3x2 bull (hard to tell if it was a spike or a "fork" as there was a nub awfully close to 1" long near the top of that side). I ran into an officer later and described the bull, as it had two brows and a main beam on the one side and the spike-maybe-fork on the other. I was pretty shocked to hear him say that the brow tines didn't count and I could have shot the bull based on the 3 point side alone! Ever since then I try to bring this topic up with every new fish cop I see, and they all maintain the "alert" ear position and above is where the branching has to occur.


This has been the result of my conversations with several fish and game officers. None of his branches start above the tip of the ear. This rule came into effect based on the first few years of spoke hunting. Tickets were issued to hunters on yearling bulls with tiny eye guards. The bonus to the rule is the opportunity to take out a bull like this that most LE tag holders won't shoot.

That bull is legal and there nothing wrong with shooting him. It is also perfectly acceptable to pass him. I know what I would do.

As advised, show these pictures to the officer. You have some great photos of him. He will confirm it.


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

johnnycake said:


> JC HUNTER said:
> 
> 
> > I called the DWR to see if I could e-mail the pics to a CO and get their opinion. She told me that the CO's wont determine if the bull is legal or not until it's dead and they can look at it in person. I also asked her to clarify the "above the ear" rule and she said it was based on the length of the ear not necessarily above the ear. She said it doesn't matter if the tine is growing down or not, if it branches past the length of the ear then it isn't legal.
> ...


She just kept saying she's only been authorized to say that it's the length of the ear, not above the ear. She was also very well educated on the matter, not just a secretary that didn't know anything.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

JC HUNTER said:


> She just kept saying she's only been authorized to say that it's the length of the ear, not above the ear.


This is where my question is at with the rule. If it is length of ear, it should say that. But "above the ear" is somewhat confusing. I could totally see either interpretation being adopted by a CO in the field. As a prosecutor, I would not prosecute someone for taking this bull on a spike tag based upon the language in the rule. But you might find one that would.


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## jsc (Nov 13, 2007)

We had a similar situation a couple of years back and emailed some pictures of a bull for the fish and game officers to clarify for us. It did take a couple weeks for them to get back, but they believed the bull we were after was indeed a spike. We were advised that our pictures were in velvet and the horns could still grow, and that it would be our risk if it grew a branch over an inch. We asked about the ear delema and were told if you rotated the ear in a circle the highest point (tip) would be where your above the ear mark would come from. Now I'm sure there could be different interpretations by different officers, but I would check with the CO and not the girls behind the desk. The bull we hunted was a lot more risky than yours but it still met the spike definition. I would shoot your bull on a spike tag with no hesitation.


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

jsc said:


> We had a similar situation a couple of years back and emailed some pictures of a bull for the fish and game officers to clarify for us. It did take a couple weeks for them to get back, but they believed the bull we were after was indeed a spike. We were advised that our pictures were in velvet and the horns could still grow, and that it would be our risk if it grew a branch over an inch. We asked about the ear delema and were told if you rotated the ear in a circle the highest point (tip) would be where your above the ear mark would come from. Now I'm sure there could be different interpretations by different officers, but I would check with the CO and not the girls behind the desk. The bull we hunted was a lot more risky than yours but it still met the spike definition. I would shoot your bull on a spike tag with no hesitation.


Did you end up getting the bull you are talking about?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

JC HUNTER said:


> She just kept saying she's only been authorized to say that it's the length of the ear, not above the ear. She was also very well educated on the matter, not just a secretary that didn't know anything.


Well, if you want, pm me the coordinates for that bull and I'll try to get my dad on him on the rifle hunt! Let him take the risk for ya, and then we can get the question resolved and let you know!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

JC HUNTER said:


> I called the DWR to see if I could e-mail the pics to a CO and get their opinion. She told me that the CO's wont determine if the bull is legal or not until it's dead and they can look at it in person. I also asked her to clarify the "above the ear" rule and she said it was based on the length of the ear not necessarily above the ear. She said it doesn't matter if the tine is growing down or not, if it branches past the length of the ear then it isn't legal.


Ugh..figures. The good news is you got clarification on at least part of the rule. I wouldn't shoot that bull based on the clarification but to each his own.

I'd probably still try to pin down the CO and get them some pics. The big thing here is if you shoot the bull at least they are well aware and would make the situation go much better for you if you were stopped.

My 2 cents.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I agree with Bullsnot, I'd still try to talk to a CO in person. They are the law. If they say not legal, I wouldn't touch it. But I've heard of a few COs giving the thumbs up to similar bulls, IMO they don't want that type of bull in the gene pool.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Well, if you want, pm me the coordinates for that bull and I'll try to get my dad on him on the rifle hunt! Let him take the risk for ya, and then we can get the question resolved and let you know!


I would volunteer as tribute.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I'd pass on it. I'm not in to the whole "shoot the biggest non-spike bull I can legally get away with using a spike tag" stuff.
I also don't care what the definition says: that bull is not a spike.

Genetics? Is that a genetic "defect" or an injury?
If genetics are a cause of worry for people, why don't we have exceptions to cull genetically inferior cows? For that matter, I wonder what you might get if you crossed that genetically inferior bull with a genetically superior cow? Yikes! Now we're talking trophies!! 

AND -- what about harvesting it's sheds? the left side is probably worth more than the right side in weight.
Let that dam ugly bull walk!


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## mrkrik (Jan 26, 2016)

That's a neat looking bull. Looking at the picture, I think I figured out why he's so unique. It looks like he has his nut sack hanging on the end of that drop tine. He must have been scratching a little too aggressively.


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

johnnycake said:


> Well, if you want, pm me the coordinates for that bull and I'll try to get my dad on him on the rifle hunt! Let him take the risk for ya, and then we can get the question resolved and let you know!


I'm still on the fence weather I would shoot him or not. It honestly doesn't matter cause I will probably never see him in person anyhow.....just my luck.

If he doesn't get killed on the archery hunt then I will share his location with you. It would mean more to me if I could help you get your dad on a cool spike than if someone else killed him. I'm lucky to still hunt with my dad but I know that won't always be the case. I'll even tag along if you want an extra spotter.


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## jsc (Nov 13, 2007)

hunting777 said:


> Did you end up getting the bull you are talking about?


I did not take the bull as I was hunting big bulls on a limited entry tag, however our group member was able to take the bull.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

JC HUNTER said:


> I'm still on the fence weather I would shoot him or not. It honestly doesn't matter cause I will probably never see him in person anyhow.....just my luck.
> 
> If he doesn't get killed on the archery hunt then I will share his location with you. It would mean more to me if I could help you get your dad on a cool spike than if someone else killed him. I'm lucky to still hunt with my dad but I know that won't always be the case. I'll even tag along if you want an extra spotter.


That is mighty nice of you. Since I'm up in AK it would be more of a "hey, here's my dad's number if you really want to go out and try it..." type deal.

Honestly, if you see him on your archery tag I would not hesitate to deflate him if I were you.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> I'd pass on it. I'm not in to the whole "shoot the biggest non-spike bull I can legally get away with using a spike tag" stuff.
> I also don't care what the definition says: that bull is not a spike.
> 
> Genetics? Is that a genetic "defect" or an injury?
> ...


Bah humbug Mr Scrooge! It's hunting, it's supposed to be fun. Come on Heppy, I know you have some joy deep down inside that Captain Buzzkill persona you've got in this thread!


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

PBH said:


> I'd pass on it. I'm not in to the whole "shoot the biggest non-spike bull I can legally get away with using a spike tag" stuff.
> I also don't care what the definition says: that bull is not a spike.
> 
> Genetics? Is that a genetic "defect" or an injury?
> ...


He is beautiful!! Imagine how he looks now with the velvet rubbed off. I have 4 words to help change your mind:

Ivory Tipped Nutsack Bull

Now that would make an impressive shoulder mount. Imagine how exciting this bull is for the guys with nutsack trailer hitches on their trucks!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Has Lonetree weighed in on commenting about this bull?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

*BANG*


-DallanC


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> I agree with Bullsnot, I'd still try to talk to a CO in person. *They are the law.* If they say not legal, I wouldn't touch it.......


Not true, the proclamation is the law, the CO's only enforce what is written in the proclamation. The bull in question meets the qualifications of a spike as defined by the proclamation (i.e. no branches above the ear) and that's all that matters. The CO's opinion is of no legal consequence, they are not infallible. An experienced attorney would have a field day in court with any CO issuing a citation for taking that bull, though I doubt it'd ever get that far.

Personally, I'd shoot. I may not lash him to the hood of my truck and parade him in front of the game warden's house, but he'd be dead nonetheless.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Bah humbug Mr Scrooge! It's hunting, it's supposed to be fun. Come on Heppy, I know you have some joy deep down inside that Captain Buzzkill persona you've got in this thread!


come now 'nilla(wafer). I get excited over shooting cows on spike hunts! And I have fun doing it!

Honestly though -- I wouldn't shoot it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

That's more like it! 

I don't archery hunt, but given the chance to shoot a cow on a spike tag, is be the same. Cow elk hunts are some of my favorite! Hunting is just awesome, no matter what is printed on the tag.


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## 3rd times a charm (Aug 27, 2017)

:mrgreen:If you are not wanting t chance it, and are willing to help a fellow hunter..... I am more then willing to make the short trip down and try to get in on him.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I probably wouldn't shoot it but maybe this one.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

ridgetop said:


> I probably wouldn't shoot it but maybe this one.


Ridge if you shot that bull instead of one of the other brutes you've shared pics of and it's before the last light of the last day...I might just have to fly down to Utah and smack you in person


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Ridge if you shot that bull instead of one of the other brutes you've shared pics of and it's before the last light of the last day...I might just have to fly down to Utah and smack you in person


I've got to put meat in the freezer man. 
If it legal, it's going home with me.

Hey, if you buy my spotting scope, maybe I'll hold off.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

ridgetop said:


> I've got to put meat in the freezer man.
> If it legal, it's going home with me.
> 
> Hey, if you buy my spotting scope, maybe I'll hold off.


What's scary is how many times since you've posted that I've pulled it up and started scheming how to hide it from my wife


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Saw a lady awhile back at a Fairview gas station with a BIG 1x6 I assume she got on the Manti. Now that's the kind of spike I want.:rockon:


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