# Rise up and leave? Jake decides to transfer



## GaryFish

Well, BYU just announced that Jake Heaps has decided to transfer. 
http://byucougars.com/m-football/heaps-decides-transfer

Discuss.


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## Dodger

He wasn't willing to take a hit on the field. Why should taking one off the field be any different? He's never been a team player and this is the final evidence to support that conclusion.

For the record, I think he's thrown away any chance to play on Sunday and his best chance to ever start a game again.


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## JuddCT

Too bad. The kid had loads of talent but also had a pretty big head. I wonder how he would have done under some better coaches from the beginning.


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## GaryFish

Winners finish. And potential never beats performance.


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## JuddCT

GaryFish said:


> Winners finish. And potential never beats performance.


Agreed, I still hope he does well somewhere else. He is still just a kid isn't he only like 19 or 20? I think he, the coaching staff, BYU fans, WR's, and his 0-2 record against the Utes are to blame.

:lol:


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## Dodger

I see a lot of people on KSL bashing the coaches for Heaps' decision. I also see tons of Ute fans defending Heaps, which is hilarious. Clearly, they have his best interests in mind. His transfer is a shame, however. Heaps would have been one of the greats at BYU if only he had the patience to prepare for his time to shine. 

I suspect that his issues were more with his teammates who didn't see him as a hard worker or a team player and that they were more relevant to his decision to transfer than his poor performance on the field. Because he didn't go on a mission, he is also a lot younger than many on the team. I can see why a 25 or 26 year old senior doesn't relate to a 19 year old fresh out of high school when it comes to off the field relationships. 

In my opinion, Heaps wanted to be treated like a special snowflake, the end all-be all of BYU football. He talked a big game but he never played one.


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## GaryFish

I never thought much of Jake when he started things out by holding his own presser at Iggys, saying he would win multiple national championships at BYU. When one player, any player, thinks they are bigger than the program, any program, it isn't going to work out well. 

As for treatment on/off the field and mission/no mission, I don't know that would make that big of a difference. Players respect effort. And when you strap on the pads for your college team, any accolades earned in high school mean absolutely diddly squat. Just as college accolades don't mean a thing when guys turn pro. It is all about performance at the level you are now. And practice all stars are great, but game time performance matters most. And that will follow Heaps wherever he goes. 

I don't know the kid but what I've seen on the field. I wish him success no matter where he lands. But most of the time, the grass is seldom greener. Of course, I say that when the current BYU QB, and the winning-est BYU QB both transferred from other schools. I guess its OK when guys transfer TO your program, and some kind of tragedy when they wave bye bye.


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## JuddCT

Dodger said:


> I see a lot of people on KSL bashing the coaches for Heaps' decision. I also see tons of Ute fans defending Heaps, which is hilarious. Clearly, they have his best interests in mind. His transfer is a shame, however.


As a Utah fan I remember watching this kid in the rivalry game last year and thinking it would be tough to beat him the next three years. He looked really good in that game.

Wish the kid the best and hopefully he can do something great somewhere else.


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## Dodger

GaryFish said:


> Of course, I say that when the current BYU QB, and the winning-est BYU QB both transferred from other schools. I guess its OK when guys transfer TO your program, and some kind of tragedy when they wave bye bye.


I don't really see that anyone thinks this is a tragedy. Far from it, I think. It's disappointing because he had a bright future. But I don't see this as adversely impacting BYU to any significant extent. That's because the program was always bigger than Heaps, whether or not he believed that.

When you say players respect effort, I agree. I guess my point is that for whatever reason, I think there were problems between him and his teammates. Maybe it was for lack of effort, maybe it was for shying away from being hit, maybe it was because he was so much younger, maybe its because he wouldn't even try to tackle someone to prevent a pick-six. I don't know. But, whatever it was, he lost their respect and I think that's clear from his decision not to play in the bowl game.

Riley got benched and tried to get on Special Teams. Heaps got benched and transferred.

I hope he lands on his feet but I suspect his feet will be squarely in the white paint where he doesn't do anything more than hold a clipboard.


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## GaryFish

So any thoughts on where Heaps lands? I'm hearing Cal, ASU, and Washington State. Utah needs a QB as well. And I'd think with Chow's record of putting QBs in the NFL, it would be a place worth considering - especially if Chase Hanson is considering a mission - which I have no idea. And much as I dislike the utahutes, if I'm Jake, I'm calling Norm Chow and having a discussion right now.


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## Dodger

Going to play for the Utes wouldn't be the first bad decision Heaps has made. 

In addition to the schools you mentioned, I heard U-dub. Sark might have a soft spot for another former BYU quarterback.

When did missions become optional for LDS football players?* Ben Olsen made the same decision and was excoriated for it when I was down there. He actually ended up going on a mission, but he left BYU. Regardless of what utefan says, there is more to life than football, even for highly touted quarterbacks. 

*When I say that, I mean "optional" in the sense that LDS young men are expected to serve missions. I've never seen church leadership mention exceptions when they talk about "every worthy young man."


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## GaryFish

The mission/football is an interesting thing. Beck, Hall and Doman are the only winning BYU QBs to do missions. Detmer gets a pass, since when he came to BYU, he wasn't LDS. But each kid is different. I've been glad that guys like Beck and Hall showed there could be success AND a mission. Others that came before felt they couldn't do that. And I think Heaps falls in that camp. I think its easy for me to say when I'm not being told by everyone around me, how I'll be making millions of dollars in just 3 short years if I do nothing but football. And a mission teaches a kid that you are not bigger than everything and everyone around you - it teaches the opposite - that the greatest happiness is in losing yourself - not promoting yourself. 

Listening to the radio today, all the discussion is on who is to blame. To me, asserting blame makes the assumption that something wrong has happened. And I'm not sure that is the case here. I'm not sure something wrong happened when Max Hall transferred from ASU, or Ben Olson to UCLA, or Riley Nelson from Utah State, or with Jake Heaps going wherever he goes. I don't see any of those as wrong for those young men. It just is. Some places are better fits, and that's OK. While I love BYU, it is not the best fit for everyone. I'm pushing my son, a senior in HS this year, NOT to go to BYU because it wouldn't be a good fit for him. And that is OK too. 

I wish Heaps all the best in his choices, and in life. I hope that whatever choice he makes will facilitate him reaching his goals.


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## Dodger

Interesting comments Gary. But I think something wrong has happened because Jake wouldn't be transferring if he was happy. And if he's not happy, something is wrong, at least for him. 

I guess the question is what made him unhappy and who is responsible for it? I think he's not happy because he lost his starting spot. He lost his starting spot because he didn't perform. I think Heaps is responsible for his performance, as you mentioned before. Maybe Heaps doesn't fit at BYU. But, that's on him, not on the coaches or the school. 

I wouldn't have traded my mission for a million dollars in 3 years and I came home from my mission on a stretcher. Maybe that's just me.


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## JuddCT

GaryFish said:


> I've been glad that guys like Beck and Hall showed there could be success AND a mission.


Not to burst your bubble, but I think Hall was only out there like 6-9 months and he came back early and transferred to the Y (not trying to take anything away from the guy but just clarifying). He was a good QB and I'm still proud that he hates me!


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## HighNDry

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I'd heard that Steve Young was counseled by his ecclesiastical leaders to not go on a mission. Does that sound right? I have heard him say in a fireside talk that he regrets not going.

I would like to see Heaps end up at Utah. I think the kid has a lot of potential still. He needs to find a psycological coach and have his head worked on a bit. I think his difficulties lie there, not in his phsysical talent. There have been lots of great QBs in the college and pro ranks that dodged hits. Some are even coached to do it to prolong careers.

I think he is making the only decision he can at this point. I don't think Riley is all that great, Sure he's helped win some games against some poor teams, but I thin Jake would have won those games too. Here is what Jake is feeling: he has players that don't like him, he has a QB coach that doesn't like his style, he has a head coach that can't buck-up and make his mind up who the future man will be, and he didn't get a chance to develop or shine this year when all the teams they played except Utah and TCU are pretty crappy teams. Heaps in my opinion would have out performed Nelson against the likes of Idaho, Idaho State, and the other pitiful teams on the Ys schedule.

I wish the kid well. In my opinion he was shafted by a bunch of coaches and players that claim to live a "higher" standard than the rest of us, but proved they don't.


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## Dodger

HighNDry said:


> I think he is making the only decision he can at this point. I don't think Riley is all that great, Sure he's helped win some games against some poor teams, but I thin Jake would have won those games too. Here is what Jake is feeling: he has players that don't like him, he has a QB coach that doesn't like his style, he has a head coach that can't buck-up and make his mind up who the future man will be, and he didn't get a chance to develop or shine this year when all the teams they played except Utah and TCU are pretty crappy teams. Heaps in my opinion would have out performed Nelson against the likes of Idaho, Idaho State, and the other pitiful teams on the Ys schedule.


Explain for me then why Heaps was struggling against Utah State and why things changed when Nelson came in.

He had plenty of opportunities to shine. He took advantage of exactly zero of them.



HighNDry said:


> I wish the kid well. In my opinion he was shafted by a bunch of coaches and players that claim to live a "higher" standard than the rest of us, but proved they don't.


Prove it. Show me one link where these coaches and players claim to live a higher standard than the "rest of us." Then, if you can prove it, which I don't think you can, explain how the coaches and players prove they don't live that high standard by their conduct. You made an outrageous claim. Support it. I'm all ears.

Heaps got shafted? My goodness. If Heaps won games, he wouldn't be in this situation. He threw 24 touchdowns and 17 interceptions in two years and got benched for not performing. After wasting 2 years of reps and coaches' practice time, Heaps is the one that got shafted? I don't think so.


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## coyoteslayer

> Heaps got shafted? My goodness. If Heaps won games, he wouldn't be in this situation. He threw 24 touchdowns and 17 interceptions in two years and got benched for not performing. After wasting 2 years of reps and coaches' practice time, Heaps is the one that got shafted? I don't think so.


I can't believe I'm going to defend the "Heap on the turf." I think a lot of it was the coaches fault. They shouldn't have had two QBs last year. They should have focused on Jake Heaps and used Riley on special teams or some other plays. Jake Heaps was a lot better after Riley got injured last year. He played well so what changed this year? He went from playing great to mediocre.

I noticed that the start of the season then the play calling was pretty crappy. The running game sucked. The Utes crushed BYU which made Bronco water his pillow at night. A lot of receivers weren't catching plays. It seems like a lot guy's hearts weren't in the game. Maybe they didn't respect Heaps so they weren't going to help him as much. They must have respect Riley more because the moment he stepped on the field the BYU players started playing hard.

Of course when Riley took over then they were playing cupcakes which made him look promising.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

Andrew Luck was made to redshirt at Stanford. Jake Heaps should have been redshirted as well. I distinctly remember how Bronco was saying the team lacked leadership and that's what they were looking for from a quarterback, someone to step up and take charge of the team. Then he put up an 18 year old kid out of high school against a 23 year old returned missionary. Hhhhhmmmm, I wonder who is going to have the leadership skills at that point... :?: 

The year following Andrew Luck's redshirt year, Coach Harbaugh stepped up and said to the team, "Luck is our starter no matter what." The starter from the previous year was relegated to the bench and is now an assistant coach at Stanford. In other words, the coaches thought so highly of his leadership that they brought him back to join their staff. Luck was given the QB reigns, though, all the way. He blossomed. 

Food for thought.


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## Dodger

coyoteslayer said:


> Heaps got shafted? My goodness. If Heaps won games, he wouldn't be in this situation. He threw 24 touchdowns and 17 interceptions in two years and got benched for not performing. After wasting 2 years of reps and coaches' practice time, Heaps is the one that got shafted? I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe I'm going to defend the "Heap on the turf." I think a lot of it was the coaches fault. They shouldn't have had two QBs last year. They should have focused on Jake Heaps and used Riley on special teams or some other plays. Jake Heaps was a lot better after Riley got injured last year. He played well so what changed this year? He went from playing great to mediocre.
> 
> I noticed that the start of the season then the play calling was pretty crappy. The running game sucked. The Utes crushed BYU which made Bronco water his pillow at night. A lot of receivers weren't catching plays. It seems like a lot guy's hearts weren't in the game. Maybe they didn't respect Heaps so they weren't going to help him as much. They must have respect Riley more because the moment he stepped on the field the BYU players started playing hard.
> 
> Of course when Riley took over then they were playing cupcakes which made him look promising.
Click to expand...

Coyoteslayer defending Heaps rings about as true as Timothy Geitner giving a seminar on how to pay your taxes.

The same question applies CS. If Riley was just succeeding because he was playing cupcakes, why did he make the difference in the Utah State game? Why did Heaps suck it up for 3 quarters only for Nelson to come in and win the game? Did Utah State just give up so Riley could look good or was Riley doing something that Heaps couldn't do?

Until the Utes find a quarterback, I'd work on that beam-ectomy from your own eye.


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## coyoteslayer

Dodger said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heaps got shafted? My goodness. If Heaps won games, he wouldn't be in this situation. He threw 24 touchdowns and 17 interceptions in two years and got benched for not performing. After wasting 2 years of reps and coaches' practice time, Heaps is the one that got shafted? I don't think so.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe I'm going to defend the "Heap on the turf." I think a lot of it was the coaches fault. They shouldn't have had two QBs last year. They should have focused on Jake Heaps and used Riley on special teams or some other plays. Jake Heaps was a lot better after Riley got injured last year. He played well so what changed this year? He went from playing great to mediocre.
> 
> I noticed that the start of the season then the play calling was pretty crappy. The running game sucked. The Utes crushed BYU which made Bronco water his pillow at night. A lot of receivers weren't catching plays. It seems like a lot guy's hearts weren't in the game. Maybe they didn't respect Heaps so they weren't going to help him as much. They must have respect Riley more because the moment he stepped on the field the BYU players started playing hard.
> 
> Of course when Riley took over then they were playing cupcakes which made him look promising.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Coyoteslayer defending Heaps rings about as true as Timothy Geitner giving a seminar on how to pay your taxes.
> 
> The same question applies CS. If Riley was just succeeding because he was playing cupcakes, why did he make the difference in the Utah State game? Why did Heaps suck it up for 3 quarters only for Nelson to come in and win the game? Did Utah State just give up so Riley could look good or was Riley doing something that Heaps couldn't do?
> 
> Until the Utes find a quarterback, I'd work on that beam-ectomy from your own eye.
Click to expand...

 -_O- -_O- -_O-


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## Dwight Schrutester

Dodger said:


> The same question applies CS. If Riley was just succeeding because he was playing cupcakes, why did he make the difference in the Utah State game? Why did Heaps suck it up for 3 quarters only for Nelson to come in and win the game? Did Utah State just give up so Riley could look good or was Riley doing something that Heaps couldn't do?


Didn't watch the game, but I will venture a guess. Utah State game planned for Heaps, not Nelson. Nelson is a running qb, Heaps is not. Utah State most likely didn't adjust or know how to adjust or adjust quick enough for Nelson for the remaining quarter.

Feel free to mock me or stone me for my attempt to answer the question without having seen the game.


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## JuddCT

Geez Dodger, don't take it too personally! Heaps would be a much better QB in the longmrun, we all agree with this. They should havenred shirted him last year and workedmhim in this year, i fault the coaches for that decision. Don't you remember all the sunshine the coaches were blowing up his but after the bowl game last year and through fall camp? He was given the crown he was wearing by the coaches and fans! Wish the kid good luck and hope you don't meet him in the future, that kid would eat BYU's secondary alive with WRs that don't drop passes.


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## proutdoors

I think this is a low point for BYU and for Bronco Mendenhall, NOT for Heaps! From what I have seen during games, and from the comments I have read from Brandon Domain, I see it clearly being a coaching problem far more than an ego problem from heaps. Did Domain get benched for his SEVERAL games of HORRIBLE play calling? The truth is, Heaps was put in a no-win situation. Anything short of a undefeated season was built by the media, the fans, and the COACHES as a failure for this KID. Domain doesn't even deserve to be a high school OC, let alone a D1 school. Heaps would have been a fool to stay at BYU, he would have at best started one year. I hope Heaps goes to a quality program and tears it up. I say that as a hard-core BYU fan. I was a supporter of Mendenhall, but I am looking forward to his replacement.....


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## Catherder

As a Utefan, it seemed to me that both the coaching and Mr. Heaps were partially responsible for this failure. Last years QB fiasco sure didn't help, and was all on Mendenhall, and I have to agree with Pro and others that the coaching this year has been less than "inspiring" as well. That said, at the end last season, in the rivalry game and the bowl game, he looked pretty good. Something happened between then and this year. This years results speak for themselves. My office is in the shadow of LES and we get some scuttlebut about BYU sports. Word is that he WAS a bit of a diva and his family didn't help much. Maybe the guy should have gone on a mission instead of getting married. Who knows. The cougs will be OK at QB, and hopefully it works out for Heaps. Maybe he should transfer to the U. He showed earlier this year he's good at hitting targets in red with the ball. 



JuddCT said:


> Geez Dodger, don't take it too personally!


+1. Bashing Utefans and cougarfans alike. Take it easy bro. You didn't secretly copyright the "Heaps for Heisman" phrase after the Iggy's presser last year did you?


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## Dwight Schrutester

proutdoors said:


> I say that as a hard-core BYU fan. I was a supporter of Mendenhall, but I am looking forward to his replacement.....


I think Mendenhall has peaked (performance-wise) in his career at BYU. He has shown that he is good for 10 wins for most seasons, but not any more than that. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here, but it is interesting that out of the 3 teams that ruled the MWC (Utah, TCU, BYU), Bronco is the only coach not to go undefeated and make a BCS game.

It will be interesting to see how long Bronco stays at BYU. The BYU head coaching job isn't for everybody, and he is a good match for it.


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## Huge29

proutdoors said:


> I think this is a low point for BYU and for Bronco Mendenhall, NOT for Heaps! From what I have seen during games, and from the comments I have read from Brandon Domain, I see it clearly being a coaching problem far more than an ego problem from heaps. Did Domain get benched for his SEVERAL games of HORRIBLE play calling?


I would expect such a comment from a third party who had not watched any of the Y games, but from a Y fan?? Was it Doman's fault when a perfect set up play action with Apo and Hoffman behind their coverage very open and he overthrows the wide open receiver by about 5 yards or can't hit a fade for the life of him? I am with Dodger; he was given every chance that he deserved. 
I respect Jake for being positive and respectful in never having spoken negatively...up to this point. I wish him well. I don't see him going anywhere near the NFL, but I can see a big program picking him up, clearly better than anyone on the Utes. I don't know that I agree with his decision. The redshirt would have given him a chance to get his head right and better study film, know the system to perfection and be an upperclassman...

I do fault the system that Bronco has in essentially spitting on the blue chip recruits with direct and indirect insults about the entitlements while being in love with all walk ons as was he or the likes of Riley. Make no mistake, Jake absolutely sucked it up this year, his QB rating sucked, that has nothing to do with a new OC. Such treatment certainly leads to locker room problems in not respecting him/despising the likes of Heaps. Overall, it does look bad to now see both of the blue chip QB recruits in the last 12 years transferring out...


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## Dodger

Dwight Schrutester said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> The same question applies CS. If Riley was just succeeding because he was playing cupcakes, why did he make the difference in the Utah State game? Why did Heaps suck it up for 3 quarters only for Nelson to come in and win the game? Did Utah State just give up so Riley could look good or was Riley doing something that Heaps couldn't do?
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't watch the game, but I will venture a guess. Utah State game planned for Heaps, not Nelson. Nelson is a running qb, Heaps is not. Utah State most likely didn't adjust or know how to adjust or adjust quick enough for Nelson for the remaining quarter.
> 
> Feel free to mock me or stone me for my attempt to answer the question without having seen the game.
Click to expand...

Ok, let's assume you are right. Utah State wasn't prepared for Nelson. Nelson came in and started a running game, which up to that point was basically non-existent.

That doesn't mean that Heaps didn't have a fair chance to perform against Utah State though. There are 50 games every week where he defense prepares for one quarterback and 25 of those quarterbacks overcome the defense and win the game. But, the overall competition for Heaps was the same.

He had a chance to excel, he just didn't.


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## Dodger

JuddCT said:


> Geez Dodger, don't take it too personally! Heaps would be a much better QB in the longmrun, we all agree with this. They should havenred shirted him last year and workedmhim in this year, i fault the coaches for that decision. Don't you remember all the sunshine the coaches were blowing up his but after the bowl game last year and through fall camp? He was given the crown he was wearing by the coaches and fans! Wish the kid good luck and hope you don't meet him in the future, that kid would eat BYU's secondary alive with WRs that don't drop passes.


I'm not taking it personally. I just don't agree that the coaches are to blame. Heaps wasn't patient enough to see the payoff he wanted at BYU.

I do find it a little bit inconsistent that when Heaps walks through the candy land part of the season and is the king of the world. Riley does it and Heaps didn't get a fair shake.


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## Dodger

I disagree Pro. Heaps didn't need to go undefeated to have a successful season. He needed to complete his passes to have a successful season. Turns out, he did neither. 24 touchdowns and 17 interceptions in 2 years. That doesn't cut it, anywhere.

Dwight - Mendenhall is good for 10 win seasons in most years. How is that a bad thing? I read somewhere that BYU was the 4th most consistent school in the country. I don't remember the source so take it as hearsay. But, that's a pretty darn good record. Consistency gets you respect. Respect gets you ranked. Ranking gets you into BCS games. Just because it hasn't happened in the same time frame it has happened for other schools doesn't mean BYU won't go dancing in the future.

Cath - CS barely counts as a utefan. If anything, he's just anti-BYU. And, I my comments weren't intended to bash anyone. I haven't intended to do anything more than respectfully disagree. The coaches may have mishandled the 2 quarterback rotation but it wouldn't have been an issue if Heaps stood out. It's simple, you win, you play. I don't know how many times I screamed last year when Anae called that fade. Heaps missed it all but 2 times all last season. He missed escape passes in the flats. He missed wide open receivers by 5 yards or more. When that happens, how can coaches do anything but doubt if you are ready for the big time?

Huge - I agree for the most part. The only thing I would point out is that losing Ben Olsen was because the student body erupted when he announced he wasn't going to go on a mission. I was down there at the time. It didn't have anything to do with football. I don't think it is Mendenhall spitting on the blue chip recruits, I think it is the attitude that the blue chip recruits come in with that doesn't fit at BYU. BYU is way bigger than one quarterback. Those that come in that do it for their own glory seldom work out. It's the guys that come in with the desire to play as a team that succeed.

Tanner Mangum is still on board and, I think, has a bright future at BYU, after his mission.


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## Kevin D

From Aggie fan, I'm old school enough to think that it is up to the player to adjust to the coaching system and not the other way around. Football is still a team game and the coaches job is to do what's best for the team, and if that means benching Heaps, that is their decision to make. Heaps had the choice to improve himself or run, and he decided to run. So my reaction is addios amigo, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out......


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## coyoteslayer

> When did missions become optional for LDS football players?*


It shouldn't be a requirement though in order to play football. I know that every worthy young man should serve a mission, but I'm not going to hold it against anyone that doesn't serve a mission. I loved my mission and I would go again if I had the chance. My oldest brother didn't serve a mission, but he is still a good person. It's sad, but there are a lot of RMs that come home and no longer live the standards that they taught people on their missions. Missions are great for young boys to come home and return as men, but you don't need to go on a mission to become a man. People get caught up in the whole he didn't go on a mission thing. He must be a bad person


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## coyoteslayer

> Cath - CS barely counts as a utefan.


Haha I guess you don't know me that well.


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## GaryFish

Here is a thought. Last year when BYU coaches decided to go with two QBs - something that anyone that knows anything about football is a bad thing. But the real reason they did it was that NO QB emerged as "The Guy". Not the transfer. Not the 5 star. No one. Like the saying goes, if you have 2 QBs, you don't have one. I think the staff WANTED Heaps to do well. And against the crappy competition, he did well. But Heaps proved he is the ultimate practice all star. But like Huge said, when it came down to it, he would overthrow his receivers, miss easy shots, and just didn't get it done. And last year he showed great promise at the tail end of the season, but the progress didn't continue into this season.

This whole deal reminds me of my first weeks as a college student. As soon as that first class started, it didn't matter squat what grades I had in high school. Any merits from high school were meaningless. My math professor didn't take into consideration I had straight A's in high school. Nothing mattered. And it took me a couple years to adjust to the academic demands of college. I see a direct comparison to college athletics.


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## GaryFish

And, I'll throw in my full support to the coaches. Heck, fans back in 2000 were calling for Lavell and Norm to be fired! And Norm went on to coach two QBs to the Heisman and multiple national championships. Now calling for Bronco's head? Really? On the brink of 5 ten win seasons out of the last 6? Really? The utahutes only have 4 of those ever! Especially picking up the disaster that Bronco inherited, he has been an exceptional coach, and renewing the values that BYU football should stand for. In my view, he "gets it." And while Doman is in his first year as the OC, he is exceptional as well. He took one year as a college starter and was able to make an NFL team and play for a couple of years - something that quality guys like Brian Johnson couldn't do. (I'm not slighting Johnson by the way - I'm a huge Brian Johnson fan - but I only point that out to show just how hard it is to make the NFL - Johnson is a stud, and yet still couldn't do what Doman did.) 

Have there been coaching mistakes? Absolutely. But every coach makes mistakes. I'd love to get a panel of Tom Osborne, Bobby Bowden, and Lavell Edwards, and ask them about the mistakes they made coaching. But when you see consistent patterns - 10 win seasons, consecutive QBs making NFL rosters, bowl games and victories, etc.... - you see that there are a lot more great and correct decisions than bad decisions.


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## Dodger

coyoteslayer said:


> When did missions become optional for LDS football players?*
> 
> 
> 
> It shouldn't be a requirement though in order to play football. I know that every worthy young man should serve a mission, but I'm not going to hold it against anyone that doesn't serve a mission. I loved my mission and I would go again if I had the chance. My oldest brother didn't serve a mission, but he is still a good person. It's sad, but there are a lot of RMs that come home and no longer live the standards that they taught people on their missions. Missions are great for young boys to come home and return as men, but you don't need to go on a mission to become a man. People get caught up in the whole he didn't go on a mission thing. He must be a bad person
Click to expand...

I agree CS, as much as it pains me to say that.

I don't think a mission should be a requirement to play football. All I'm trying to say is that I have a problem with people that excuse themselves from the requirement to serve because they play ball.

I traded ball for a mission because it was the right thing to do. Events on my mission ensured I'd never play ball again.

I never even intended to insinuate that anyone that doesn't go is a bad person. To the extent I did, I apologize. I do not believe that at all. Football is just not a good enough reason to not go.

And, you spend more time here hating BYU than talking about Utes. Otherwise I wouldn't see your posts here nearly as often as I do.


----------



## Dodger

*Re: Re:Rise up and leave? Jake decides to transfer*



GaryFish said:


> And, I'll throw in my full support to the coaches. Heck, fans back in 2000 were calling for Lavell and Norm to be fired! And Norm went on to coach two QBs to the Heisman and multiple national championships. Now calling for Bronco's head? Really? On the brink of 5 ten win seasons out of the last 6? Really? The utahutes only have 4 of those ever! Especially picking up the disaster that Bronco inherited, he has been an exceptional coach, and renewing the values that BYU football should stand for. In my view, he "gets it." And while Doman is in his first year as the OC, he is exceptional as well. He took one year as a college starter and was able to make an NFL team and play for a couple of years - something that quality guys like Brian Johnson couldn't do. (I'm not slighting Johnson by the way - I'm a huge Brian Johnson fan - but I only point that out to show just how hard it is to make the NFL - Johnson is a stud, and yet still couldn't do what Doman did.)
> 
> Have there been coaching mistakes? Absolutely. But every coach makes mistakes. I'd love to get a panel of Tom Osborne, Bobby Bowden, and Lavell Edwards, and ask them about the mistakes they made coaching. But when you see consistent patterns - 10 win seasons, consecutive QBs making NFL rosters, bowl games and victories, etc.... - you see that there are a lot more great and correct decisions than bad decisions.


+1 Gary. I totally agree. The coaches have my full support as well and I like having a coach that "gets it."


----------



## coyoteslayer

> I agree CS, as much as it pains me to say that.


How much pain? I hope not a lot.


----------



## GaryFish

I'd still rather see 5 star recruits that decide to transfer, than players getting arrested for drugging and raping girls. 

Fans that are unable or unwilling to recognize how good the program is, fail to see beyond the bubble.


----------



## coyoteslayer

> And, I'll throw in my full support to the coaches. Heck, fans back in 2000 were calling for Lavell and Norm to be fired! And Norm went on to coach two QBs to the Heisman and multiple national championships. Now calling for Bronco's head? Really? On the brink of 5 ten win seasons out of the last 6? Really?


I don't know why, but most BYU fans seem to turn on their team more than any other team's fans. Maybe there is something in the drinks being served at BYU. 



> The utahutes only have 4 of those ever!


True, but when is the last time BYU had an undefeated season? Even with Max Hall, Austin Collie, Pitta, Unga etc then BYU couldn't get the job done in the MWC.

I think if Bronco put football as the #1 priority they might go undefeated a time or two. Would you ever tell your boss that your job is #5 on your priority list? Bronco is paid to be a football coach, not to give firesides and be a bishop to his team. He needs to fire up his players more.

I'm glad that Coach Whit focuses on his job first and then takes care of everything else when not coaching.


----------



## coyoteslayer

> Last year when BYU coaches decided to go with two QBs - something that anyone that knows anything about football is a bad thing. But the real reason they did it was that NO QB emerged as "The Guy". Not the transfer. Not the 5 star. No one. Like the saying goes, if you have 2 QBs, you don't have one. I think the staff WANTED Heaps to do well.


They should have put all their attention on Jake Heaps. They should have been focusing on making him into "The Guy" even if that means losing half the games in the season. Afterall why would it matter if BYU lost all their games if football is #5? Of course the kid is going to make errors. It should be expected. You can't expect him to play at the college level like he did at the HS level. They should have been coaching him on his mistakes and making him better and better with his god given talents. I don't think BYU has a coach that could have molded Jake Heaps into a college/NFL QB. Jake Heaps has a lot of talent and he needs a mentor that can help him not bench him.

When the coaches say that football is #5 on the priority list and Jake Heap's #1 goal in life is to be a NFL QB then you can see why his goals would fail at BYU.


----------



## coyoteslayer

I will probably get bashed for this, but here it goes........

Yes BYU fans, I would say that each and every one of you is partly accountable for Heaps failures. If the media, your coaches and your BYU fans etc. weren't so quick to put labels on everything before anything even transpires on the field, then maybe just maybe Jake Heaps would have redshirted as a freshman and not become an entitled primadonna. He would have his head on a right and be more prepared for the game. Remember your "Quest for Prefection" shirts. BTW how did that turn out? More labeling :lol: What he didn't go on a mission? SINNER more labeling.  

Everyone fell in love with Jake Heaps when he got here. All anyone would ever talk about was we have the #1 QB blah blah blah......BYU would have probably gave him the key to Provo if they could have. Jake Heaps should have never had those kind of expectations placed upon him as an 18 year old freshman, not only that, but the fact that he held a press conference for himself should have told the fans and coaches that he wasn't mentally ready. Instead, it told you all that This kid has the swagger. We better not wait a year to start him because we cannot lose with him.


----------



## GaryFish

It wasn't the fans that called a press conference at Iggy's to announce that Heaps was coming in to "win multiple national championships." 

It wasn't the fans that in high school, paid a professional publicist. 

It wasn't the fans that in high school, would call up Seattle radio stations to talk about how great he was. 

It wasn't the fans that said he planned on breaking every BYU QB record and be among the greats. 

It wasn't the fans that proclaimed him the best QB prospect in the country. 

It wasn't the fans that announced at a signing day presser that they expected to start as a true freshman.

It wasn't the fans that suggested they'd only play 3 years because their NFL draft stock would be so high. 

And the Quest shirts were before Jake blessed BYU with his presence.


----------



## coyoteslayer

GaryFish said:


> It wasn't the fans that called a press conference at Iggy's to announce that Heaps was coming in to "win multiple national championships."
> 
> True, but your missing the point......It should have sent a message to the coaches about his EGO problem. They should have benched him his first year to humble him a little. BUT of course the BYU fan base would be screaming to fire the coaches or put Jake Heaps in.
> 
> It wasn't the fans that in high school, paid a professional publicist.
> 
> True his EGO, see point above
> 
> It wasn't the fans that in high school, would call up Seattle radio stations to talk about how great he was.
> 
> see point above
> 
> It wasn't the fans that said he planned on breaking every BYU QB record and be among the greats.
> 
> Gosh I live by Provo and I heard all about the love fest BYU fans had with Jake Heaps
> 
> It wasn't the fans that proclaimed him the best QB prospect in the country.
> 
> Yes, but the fans all drank the koolaid and added to his EGO.
> 
> It wasn't the fans that announced at a signing day presser that they expected to start as a true freshman.
> 
> Many BYU fans hear in Provo expected that he would.
> 
> It wasn't the fans that suggested they'd only play 3 years because their NFL draft stock would be so high.
> 
> And the Quest shirts were before Jake blessed BYU with his presence.
> 
> I know, but like I said BYU fans always put labels on everything before anything happens


----------



## GaryFish

coyoteslayer said:


> Bronco is paid to be a football coach, not to give firesides and be a bishop to his team. He needs to fire up his players more.


Are you sure of that? True, Football coach is his title, but none of us know the totality of marching orders he has from his employer. After the garbage that Crowton pulled in Provo, I would guess that Bronco has direction from his boss to do exactly that - give firesides, AND be a bishop to his team. And I guarantee this - BYU and The Church would rather a team lose every single game, than have BYU football make the news because players are out drugging and raping girls. So in addition to football coach, I am SURE Bronco has additional direction from his bosses.



coyoteslayer said:


> I don't know why, but most BYU fans seem to turn on their team more than any other team's fans. Maybe there is something in the drinks being served at BYU.


After it takes you 37 seconds to count ALL the attendance at a Utah Ute basketball game, get back to me on that.



coyoteslayer said:


> I'm glad that Coach Whit focuses on his job first and then takes care of everything else when not coaching.


Coach Whit is a great coach, and a great person. He is running an outstanding program and I have nothing but respect for him. I think he is one of the top 10-15 football coaches in the country. I also think that Coach Whit does a whole lot more "life coaching" than anyone really knows. He absolutely cares about his players and does anything he can to help them succeed on the field, and in life. And if you've ever coached football at any level - from 8 year old gremlins on to the NFL - you know how much you care for every player on your team both on the field and in life. The coach-player relationship is unique in that way. I still have players that I coached five years ago in little league go out of their way if they see me around town - to come see me and catch me up on what is up in their life. I love my players and I certainly coached them as much in life, as I did in football. And that is what makes a GREAT coach. Whit does that. Bronco does that. Edwards, Osborne, and Bowden all did it. To me, it is something that makes coaching a very special and unique profession.



coyoteslayer said:


> I think if Bronco put football as the #1 priority they might go undefeated a time or two. Would you ever tell your boss that your job is #5 on your priority list?


You ever listen to what Bobby Bowden had to say about this concept? He is one of the Mount Rushmore of college coaching, and he preached football as 4th priority to his team for decades. Bowden put God, Family, and School all ahead of football. Just as Bronco does. Bowden wrote books on it. And so did Osborne. Osborne is also a man of strong faith, and continually taught his players to put God first, then family, then school, and then football. So Bronco is among very good company. Consider the hardware collections of Bowden and Osborne, and I would do everything in my ability to pattern their approaches. Certainly more than I'd listen to internet armchair coaches.



coyoteslayer said:


> I don't think BYU has a coach that could have molded Jake Heaps into a college/NFL QB. Jake Heaps has a lot of talent and he needs a mentor that can help him not bench him.


No one every doubts that Heaps has the raw talent. In fact, it is agreed by all BYU fans and coaches that he has more raw talent than Nelson. But the same coaches that coach Heaps, also coach Nelson. The difference? Nelson worked his rear off to do anything and everything to improve. And he did. And he is now better. If Heaps spent the same effort in getting better, as he did working the media through his publicist, he never would have seen the bench. This was never more evident to me than in the game against San Jose State this year. By then, Nelson had become the starter. In the 2nd quarter, Nelson got his bell rung on a play and had to leave the game. Well, Heaps ran around the sideline trying to find his helmet - which he couldn't do. So BYU called a time-out, let Nelson catch his breath, and he returned to the game. Heaps didn't take a snap that night. He failed to exert even enough effort to be ready as the back-up when called upon. That told me wonders. When Nelson was relegated to the back-up position, he went to the coaches to find out where else he could play - receiver, defense, special teams - anywhere, doing anything - he just wanted to play and was willing to do whatever it took to play. That too, told me wonders. Both guys have the same QB coach. You tell me who has the issue.


----------



## coyoteslayer

GaryFish said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bronco is paid to be a football coach, not to give firesides and be a bishop to his team. He needs to fire up his players more.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure of that? True, Football coach is his title, but none of us know the totality of marching orders he has from his employer. After the garbage that Crowton pulled in Provo, I would guess that Bronco has direction from his boss to do exactly that - give firesides, AND be a bishop to his team. And I guarantee this - BYU and The Church would rather a team lose every single game, than have BYU football make the news because players are out drugging and raping girls. So in addition to football coach, I am SURE Bronco has additional direction from his bosses.
> 
> I guess if BYU is willing to pay a guy quite a bit of money to put on firesides and act somewhat like a bishop when other leaders of the church do it all for free then I guess that is ok.
> 
> 
> 
> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why, but most BYU fans seem to turn on their team more than any other team's fans. Maybe there is something in the drinks being served at BYU.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> After it takes you 37 seconds to count ALL the attendance at a Utah Ute basketball game, get back to me on that.
> 
> I'm not a basketball fan of any kind so your asking the wrong person..
Click to expand...


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## GaryFish

coyoteslayer said:


> I'm not a basketball fan of any kind so your asking the wrong person..


Don't worry Slayer. Most utefans aren't either.


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> It wasn't the fans that called a press conference at Iggy's to announce that Heaps was coming in to "win multiple national championships."
> 
> It wasn't the fans that in high school, paid a professional publicist.
> 
> It wasn't the fans that in high school, would call up Seattle radio stations to talk about how great he was.
> 
> It wasn't the fans that said he planned on breaking every BYU QB record and be among the greats.
> 
> It wasn't the fans that proclaimed him the best QB prospect in the country.
> 
> It wasn't the fans that announced at a signing day presser that they expected to start as a true freshman.
> 
> It wasn't the fans that suggested they'd only play 3 years because their NFL draft stock would be so high.
> 
> And the Quest shirts were before Jake blessed BYU with his presence.


Good post. I think it was a little of both the coaches and Heaps fault, with the majority of the blame being on Heaps. I think he has huge potential, but until he matures mentally it will never turn into anything. Personally BYU was in a no win situation not Heaps, IMO. They decided to go Independent which everyone at BYU agrees they needed instant success for it to work, so they were so focused on success that they had to put in whatever quarterback could give them the best chance to win and this year, it is Nelson. If Heaps would have red shirted next season he for surely would have been the starter the next two years after that and would have done very well, but like I said he lacks patience. In his immature mind he is an Andrew Luck, which he is no where near, but could potentially approach that level. I can only see a few teams in the PAC-12 that could use him, most already have much better quarterbacks than him. I think Utah could use him, Colorado. Most of the other teams are two deep with good quarterbacks. He will end up on one of the teams, but I doubt he will start any time soon like he thinks he will.


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## GaryFish

coyoteslayer said:


> And the Quest shirts were before Jake blessed BYU with his presence.
> 
> I know, but like I said BYU fans always put labels on everything before anything happens


Its called goal setting. If you don't identify your goals, you won't achieve them. Zig Zigler and any other motivational person will tell you that. If a perfect season is your goal? I see nothing wrong in formally identifying that and inviting your fans to join in as well. I hope every team at every level in every sport has that as goal at the start of every season. If they don't, then they have no business in their chosen sport. Sure it was easy to mock when they didn't reach that goal. But it is hard to fault having that kind of goal.


----------



## coyoteslayer

GaryFish said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the Quest shirts were before Jake blessed BYU with his presence.
> 
> I know, but like I said BYU fans always put labels on everything before anything happens
> 
> 
> 
> Its called goal setting. If you don't identify your goals, you won't achieve them. Zig Zigler and any other motivational person will tell you that. If a perfect season is your goal? I see nothing wrong in formally identifying that and inviting your fans to join in as well. I hope every team at every level in every sport has that as goal at the start of every season. If they don't, then they have no business in their chosen sport. Sure it was easy to mock when they didn't reach that goal. But it is hard to fault having that kind of goal.
> 
> True, every team should have goals to win otherwise they shouldn't even play the game. It just makes BYU look silly that all. I will ask again when is the last time BYU has had a undefeated season. Let me guess you will play the National Championship card again? We all know things are different now then they were back then. The LSU/Alabama proves that the BCS is a joke.
Click to expand...


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## GaryFish

I'm not sure how setting a goal for a perfect season makes BYU look silly, but whatever. 

1984 was when BYU won the national championship and went undefeated. I've not invoked that at all in this discussion, as it really has no relevance on Jake Heaps transferring. Kid wasn't even alive then and it doesn't mean anything to this discussion. Nor has there been any negative comments directed towards the utahutes, except for the snarky comment about no fans going to UU basketball games. But utefans would agree with that.

Back to the Heaps thing - players transfer. It happens. And the sun even came up again today in Cougar Town. This isn't' the end of the world. BYU will get quality recruits, AND transfers in the future. And other players will transfer out of the program. Every school is not the right fit for every player. And its great that players can choose among over 100 schools to find one that is the best fit for them.


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## Treehugnhuntr

I'm a Y fan and I say good for him. I wouldn't have stuck around either.


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## HighNDry

Glad you guys have all the answers. I think you're all right: Heaps would have been better off coming into BYU with his tail between his legs, just a humble little kid claiming that he would try to do his best. 

BYU coaches and players can do no wrong. I'm sorry for indicating that Doman and Heaps didn't see eye to eye. I'm sure that in Happy Valley, things were just perfect. Heaps just decided to move along even though he was treated so nicely by everyone.

Hey, who can get me the lead on the newspaper story that talks about Nelson's family sitting in the stands during the USU game and yelling at Heaps wife for not cheering when Riley went into the game? I'd like to read the story.

Riley becomes a hero for throwing a pass that was tipped inot another receivers arms. I'm sure he "planned" to do that. If you look at the replay, he was actually late in throwing the ball and slightly threw it behind the receiver. Riley is not of the same mold as other Y QBs. He's beat some crappy teams and he lucked out on the USU win. 

I've said this for a year now---not all is well in Cougarville.


----------



## proutdoors

GaryFish said:


> Back to the Heaps thing - players transfer. It happens. And the sun even came up again today in Cougar Town. This isn't' the end of the world. BYU will get quality recruits, AND transfers in the future. And other players will transfer out of the program. Every school is not the right fit for every player. And its great that players can choose among over 100 schools to find one that is the best fit for them.


Yes, players transfer, but how many blue chip recruits as BYU ever had, and how many of them stayed? How many future blue chip recruit QB's will BYU get in the next decade? How many WR's like Apo and Hoffman will the Y get in the next decade? Both those WR's came to the Y because of Heaps.....not because they wanted to catch passes from Riley..... I agree that not every program fits every kid, but when you get the highest rated high school QB is BYU history, you do your damnedest to make sure he succeeds! IMO, Mendenhall and certainly Domain, did NOT do that. I base that on comments made by the coaches/players, and I read the comments Domain made to 1320 KFAN, and I have ZERO respect for him, and FWIW I think he has done a crappy job as OC. Why does he get cut slack for learning the position, but Heaps was expected to be in Andrew Luck territory from Day One? Why do players get called "quitters" by coaches when they transfer, but coaches are 'successful' and smart to leave a team in the dust for a better deal? Who are the adults, and who are the KIDS? Heaps was how old when he called the Press Conference, and how old is Brandon Domain now when he is calling Heaps a quitter? I have been a BYU fan my entire life, and I have never called for the head of a coach, not even Crowton, but I am NOT a Mendenhall fan, and I **** sure am NOT a Domain fan, even though he was amazing in making sure LaVell went out a winner on nothing but heart.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> Why does he get cut slack for learning the position, but Heaps was expected to be in Andrew Luck territory from Day One? Why do players get called "quitters" by coaches when they transfer, but coaches are 'successful' and smart to leave a team in the dust for a better deal? Who are the adults, and who are the KIDS? Heaps was how old when he called the Press Conference, and how old is Brandon Domain now when he is calling Heaps a quitter?


I think those are some very fair points.



> how many blue chip recruits as BYU ever had, and how many of them stayed? How many future blue chip recruit QB's will BYU get in the next decade? How many WR's like Apo and Hoffman will the Y get in the next decade? Both those WR's came to the Y because of Heaps.


These are also very valid arguments.

BYU might as well just admit what they are. The football team is no longer playing to be a great football team. They are more an advertisement for Mormonism than anything. Bronco loves the "Rudy" types and that's who he is and who he'll play. We'll be cheering for the gritty underdogs from now on.


----------



## GaryFish

Question 1 - What more could BYU have done for Heaps?
Question 2 - What did Heaps do to demonstrate that he was coachable?
Question 3 - What did Heaps do to demonstrate that he should be starting QB in a major D-1 football program?

As to the point that Apo and Hoffman came to catch passes from Heaps. I bet they loved getting all those passes thrown over their heads, behind them, or out of bounds. Heaps may have been the reason they came to BYU, but getting passes delivered where they can be caught I'm sure is a higher priority. I bet they'd rather catch a pass from Nelson (or anyone else) than watch a Heaps pass sail over their head. 

As for the coaching - Doman coached John Beck to perform better than his "assessed" abilities and Beck is still in the NFL. Doman coached Max Hall to perform better than his "assessed" abilities and he is still drawing and NFL paycheck. Doman coached Nelson to perform better than his "assessed" abilities to the point that his performance is better than Heaps. Doman has not coached Heaps to perform up to his alleged abilities. Is that on Doman or Heaps? 

And Pro - you have always impressed me as a guy that respects performance over hype. That is why I like you. In every way, Nelson has outperformed Heaps on the field this year. Sure the Utah State tipped pass was a total stroke of luck. But the three scoring drives before that tipped pass were not. It was because of Nelson's performance that there was even the opportunity for a game winning drive. You cannot look at all at Nelson's tipped TD pass as the reason to play him. But the overall performance in that game and games to follow certainly can be. 

As for Doman calling Heaps a quitter essentially - if that is how he sees it, I have no problem with that. Doman is closer to the situation, all aspects of the situation, than any of us are. When Nelson went out in favor of the Freshman, he worked harder to earn a spot. When Heaps was moved to back-up, he couldn't even find his helmet when he was needed to go in. Big difference. Remove any hype, any blue-chip titles, or stars by names and look only at performance in college football and there isn't even a discussion to be had here. 

And, I have no problem with Heaps transferring and I hope he lights it up and has a great professional career. And if "showing BYU what they missed out on" inspires him, great. I certainly hope something does. If he asserted half the effort and desire that Nelson has shown, again, there would be no conversation here.


----------



## coyoteslayer

> Hey, who can get me the lead on the newspaper story that talks about Nelson's family sitting in the stands during the USU game and yelling at Heaps wife for not cheering when Riley went into the game? I'd like to read the story.





> Switch to the night of Sept. 30, 2011, in LaVell Edwards Stadium. Jake's wife Brooke watched her husband get benched as BYU trailed late against Utah State. As his replacement Riley Nelson sparked a Cougar comeback, several rows behind her, members of Nelson's family (not his mom and dad) were observed yelling down at Brooke, "Why aren't you cheering now?"
> 
> In tears, Brooke witnessed the victory but never attended another BYU game.
> 
> I thought BYU fans were perfect angels? I bet this pi$$ed Jake off when people were treating his wife bad. Thats pretty sad that she can't even go watch her husband play without moron BYU fans not using their brains.
> 
> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7002 ... -work.html


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## GaryFish

If that really is true, it is totally crappy and classless.


----------



## Dodger

BirdDogger said:


> BYU might as well just admit what they are. The football team is no longer playing to be a great football team. They are more an advertisement for Mormonism than anything. Bronco loves the "Rudy" types and that's who he is and who he'll play. We'll be cheering for the gritty underdogs from now on.


I don't see how that follows. Even assuming that Bronco will only play the Rudy types, which I don't think is accurate, how does that mean BYU isn't playing to be a great football team?

Did Rudy not make Notre Dame a great football team?

And, I don't think that Bronco only plays the Rudy types either. If Jake was as great as he thought he was, he would have played. He's arguably seen more playing time than Riley has in the past two years.


----------



## Dodger

HighNDry said:


> Glad you guys have all the answers. I think you're all right: Heaps would have been better off coming into BYU with his tail between his legs, just a humble little kid claiming that he would try to do his best.
> 
> BYU coaches and players can do no wrong. I'm sorry for indicating that Doman and Heaps didn't see eye to eye. I'm sure that in Happy Valley, things were just perfect. Heaps just decided to move along even though he was treated so nicely by everyone.
> 
> Hey, who can get me the lead on the newspaper story that talks about Nelson's family sitting in the stands during the USU game and yelling at Heaps wife for not cheering when Riley went into the game? I'd like to read the story.
> 
> Riley becomes a hero for throwing a pass that was tipped inot another receivers arms. I'm sure he "planned" to do that. If you look at the replay, he was actually late in throwing the ball and slightly threw it behind the receiver. Riley is not of the same mold as other Y QBs. He's beat some crappy teams and he lucked out on the USU win.
> 
> I've said this for a year now---not all is well in Cougarville.


No one suggested things were perfect.

I would be more interested to know the context of how Heaps' wife was asked why she wasn't cheering. If it was a legit question, I think it shows she was no more of a team player than Jake was. If they were doing it to criticize or demean her, it's despicable.

Riley did a lot more than throw a late tipped pass. He made 3 scoring drives in 20 minutes. Was it lucky? Sure. But, lucky was more than Jake was doing for us.

Not all may be well in Cougarville but you're a little pessimistic with your assessment, I think. Not everything is terrible either.


----------



## Dodger

As usual, I agree with Gary.


----------



## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> As for the coaching - Doman coached John Beck to perform better than his "assessed" abilities and Beck is still in the NFL. Doman coached Max Hall to perform better than his "assessed" abilities and he is still drawing and NFL paycheck. Doman coached Nelson to perform better than his "assessed" abilities to the point that his performance is better than Heaps. Doman has not coached Heaps to perform up to his alleged abilities. Is that on Doman or Heaps?


Doman was not the offensive coordinator during the Beck or Hall years. Quarterbacks coach yes, OC no. The job he did with the play calling when Heaps was in was simply not very good. He was more in tune with Riley's abilities because they are more like his own. Doman even admitted as much.



> Question 1 - What more could BYU have done for Heaps?


Redshirted him while Riley played last year. Then he'd be a freshman this year; no big deal coming off the bench as a freshman. Then he'd have the next three years as an older, stronger, more mature player. Name the last 18 year old you've met who was ready to lead a bunch of 22-24 year old returned missionaries. BYU's coaches answering just this one of your three questions correctly would have answered the other two by itself.


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## JuddCT

We need to all remember that jake and Riley are the same. They both transferred! You can't bash Jake and now praise Riley. Riley quit on Utah State just like Heaps quit on BYU (lots of sarcasm).


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## Huge29

1-Doman has every right to call him a quitter, Doman was in the exact same situation and stuck it out only to start 14 games I believe it was. 

2-Nelson's win wasn't just a single lucky bounce; it was an obvious PI call on the same play that would have given them a 1st and goal from the two, they would have won with or without that single lucky bounce.

3-The only thing I think that coaches can be blamed for in this case is how the players played so much better and tried harder with Nelson and not Heaps. If coaches really took control of the team and motivated correctly and did not villainize the big recruits over the Rudy this would not have happened regardless how much of a twit one player was. Anyone who argues that he was not given a fair shot is insane. He started 13 games, was it? 

4-I think he will do well elsewhere, some believe it will be WSU, which seems like the frontrunner being his home state, a new LDS (kind of) coach and a team with no good QB for two years from now when he can play. The new start will let him forget his faux pas and start over w/o the RM thing or press conference thing haunting him. However, make no mistake, he did not do very well and very much deserved to be on the bench. 9 TD's this year and 8 INT's not exactly NFL material at that rate. Compare that to Max Hall with 26/12 his sophomore year and a 137 rating; Heap's rating was like 80 after the USU game. Nelson is 16/5 this year with 61% completed compared to Heaps of 57%-almost identical to Jordan Wynn-not good company to be in.


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## proutdoors

GaryFish said:


> Question 1 - What more could BYU have done for Heaps?
> Question 2 - What did Heaps do to demonstrate that he was coachable?
> Question 3 - What did Heaps do to demonstrate that he should be starting QB in a major D-1 football program? Answer 1 - Stood beside him and MENTORED him, instead of hanging him out in the breeze. Answer 2 - Not sure, but he was 18 yrs old when he started out as a Cougar.....how many 18 yr old kids are 'coachable'? Answer 3 - Apparently enough that SEVERAL D-1 football programs want him on their team....
> 
> As to the point that Apo and Hoffman came to catch passes from Heaps. I bet they loved getting all those passes thrown over their heads, behind them, or out of bounds. Heaps may have been the reason they came to BYU, but getting passes delivered where they can be caught I'm sure is a higher priority. I bet they'd rather catch a pass from Nelson (or anyone else) than watch a Heaps pass sail over their head. You make it seem as if Riley is the next Montana, which he is NOT. A good OC calls plays that mesh with the skill players abilities/strengths. Watching the Texas game was beyond frustrating, my wife was predicting the plays right on almost every down in the 2nd half, and she rarely watches football. What kind of running game did BYU have earlier this year, where the defenses better earlier this year when Heaps was starting, or were the powerhouse teams Riley started against better defensively?
> 
> As for the coaching - Doman coached John Beck to perform better than his "assessed" abilities and Beck is still in the NFL. Doman coached Max Hall to perform better than his "assessed" abilities and he is still drawing and NFL paycheck. Doman coached Nelson to perform better than his "assessed" abilities to the point that his performance is better than Heaps. Doman has not coached Heaps to perform up to his alleged abilities. Is that on Doman or Heaps? He coached Beck and Hall as a QB coach, NOT as an OC, which is comparing apples to oranges. Gary Crowton was a terrific OC, but a horrible head coach. Being good at one does NOT insure being good at another. Personalities play a role, of that I am sure. Riley is a modern version of Brandon, so the bond is natural between them, yes?
> 
> And Pro - you have always impressed me as a guy that respects performance over hype. That is why I like you. In every way, Nelson has outperformed Heaps on the field this year. Sure the Utah State tipped pass was a total stroke of luck. But the three scoring drives before that tipped pass were not. It was because of Nelson's performance that there was even the opportunity for a game winning drive. You cannot look at all at Nelson's tipped TD pass as the reason to play him. But the overall performance in that game and games to follow certainly can be. Level of competition has been varied, level of a running game is no comparison, the OC has kinda grown into his NEW position, and the WR's are learning how to be WR's as the year as gone on. I only attended one Y game this year, the San Jose game, and I was NOT impressed with Riley. In fact, if it had been Heaps making some of those plays the crowd would have been booing and calling for Riley. Using the USU game as the standard for why/how Riley is a 'better' QB is inane. It was ONE GAME, and USU was not prepped for that style of QB. And yes, that sort of thing happens fairly regularly in the game of football.
> 
> As for Doman calling Heaps a quitter essentially - if that is how he sees it, I have no problem with that. Doman is closer to the situation, all aspects of the situation, than any of us are. When Nelson went out in favor of the Freshman, he worked harder to earn a spot. When Heaps was moved to back-up, he couldn't even find his helmet when he was needed to go in. Big difference. Remove any hype, any blue-chip titles, or stars by names and look only at performance in college football and there isn't even a discussion to be had here. He called Heaps a quitter because he is transferring, I don't recall Domain referring to Riley as a quitter, yet he transferred....... I was at the San Jose State game where Heaps couldn't find his helmet, it made me think of Thurman Thomas in the Super Bowl. I seem to recall Thurman Thomas being a pretty **** good NFL player..............Riley is what 22, 23 yrs old? Of course he is more mature/focused, but how many QB's in D-1 football are consistently 'great' as true sophomores? Add in ones that have NO running game, and a brand new OC.....
> 
> And, I have no problem with Heaps transferring and I hope he lights it up and has a great professional career. And if "showing BYU what they missed out on" inspires him, great. I certainly hope something does. If he asserted half the effort and desire that Nelson has shown, again, there would be no conversation here. Me too, and I hope Domain uses this to pull his head out of the stink hole and actually be a D-1 Offensive Coordinator....


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## HighNDry

Posted by Dodger:

"Prove it. Show me one link where these coaches and players claim to live a higher standard than the "rest of us." Then, if you can prove it, which I don't think you can, explain how the coaches and players prove they don't live that high standard by their conduct. You made an outrageous claim. Support it. I'm all ears.

Heaps got shafted? My goodness. If Heaps won games, he wouldn't be in this situation. He threw 24 touchdowns and 17 interceptions in two years and got benched for not performing. After wasting 2 years of reps and coaches' practice time, Heaps is the one that got shafted? I don't think so."

_My response:

Where the heck have you been the last few years--especially last year. The media bombarded us with the news that BYU holds its players , coaches, and students to a higher standard. This standard is not only higher morally, but in the way they interact with peers, coaches, teachers, administrators, and the public in general. They "sign" an honor code of conduct and pledge to live by it. That honor code says way more than just not drinking or having premarital sex...I don't know all the details but from what I understand it is detailed. So yes, they do claim to live by a higher standard than most other universities.

If the truth comes out--which it rarely does in Provo, you would find that team members have indicated they play harder when Nelson is in than when Heaps is in. That's a big coaching and team problem. Coaches should teach their players to give the same effort regardless of who is at the reins. Doman has said he liked Nelson's style of play better--that would indicate he was more motivated and more creative in playing calls for Nelson than he would be for Heaps.

The players and coaches go around doing firesides and preaching a "higher law" and a lifestyle that they think is superior to what others are living. You bet your life they proclaim to have the truth and best "standards." Even the coaches claim that they only want certain types of individuals to play for the Y. A candle that is set on a hill has the potential to shine light to all those around, but it can still tip over, start a fire, and burn people. You have to be very careful doing your alms before men. Jesus said, those who do their alms before men already have their reward.

When Mendenhall was interviewed for the job he asked the interviewer if it was a "calling" he was told no, but he continues to move forward as if it is a "calling." _


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## GaryFish

I agree with you highndry on several points - especially the problem of players playing harder for Riley than for Jake. That is messed up. And you are right that Bronco, et. al have been preaching higher law stuff all the time. And I don't see how any of that has been compromised with Heaps choosing to transfer. I think it is a case of Heaps not finding what he had hoped for, and now looking for someplace that he thinks he can find it better. I don't think it is a negative enditement of Heaps, nor the program. Players transfer. As has been mentioned several times - Nelson transferred. Max Hall was a transfer. And I think its kind of crappy as well, for Doman to indicate that make Heaps a quitter just because he is transferring. I think if Doman thinks Heaps is a quitter because he had a poor work ethic and didn't put in the effort to be the starting QB, that is one thing. But simply because he is transferring - I don't agree with that for the reasons mentioned. 

As for the play calling early in the season - it was certainly different than when Nelson was in there. Doman never asked Heaps to run a QB draw, or a bootleg, or any other plays associated with a mobile QB. His play calling was heavy on RB draws, draw traps, simple out routes, and was totally customized for a drop back style. Short safe route passing was used as the running game. But teams soon found that Heaps wasn't making his passes so they stuffed the box, went man on the receivers, and so there was no running game. And it is true Doman says he's more wired for a mobile QB system, but all his play calling early on this year was taylored specifically for Heap's skills. 

I think it is dangerous to compare several of the stats that Huge put up though - and especially completion percentage. Heaps could complete his passes well enough in many situations. But in the first 4 1/2 games he played, he couldn't sustain drives. He'd complete to the dump man on 1st and 2nd down just fine. But at 3rd and 6, he'd overthrow an open Apo on an out route. Or throw it behind a crossing Jacobson. Or into the turf in front of an open Hoffman. He'd complete 2/3 passes, but the incomplete would kill the drive. It seemed to me that if there was a "Must make it" kind of pass - he'd overthrow, underthrow, or miss throw it all together. And the first 3 games were against much better competition with Ol' Miss, Texas, and Utah. And I think Heaps got the benefit of the doubt on those. But when he struggled against Central Florida and then was totally ineffective against Utah State, something had to be done. And I also think that the coaches really hoped that getting benched would light a fire under Heaps. And yet, in the very next game, Heaps wasn't ready to play when he was asked. 

Heaps was the starter for most of last year after Nelson got hurt. He was the clear starter in spring ball, fall camp, and in going into the season. He got starter reps in practice. And somehow, somewhere along the way, Nelson worked his way so when he was asked to perform, he could. 

Big picture, I would have rather seen Jake redshirt for a year, then be a back up for a year, and then start his sophomore year and see what happens. It is an extremely rare talent that can start at any D1 team as a true freshman. If there was a mistake, it was not redshirting Heaps. But then again, if they would have redshirted him, he would not have come to BYU at all, and would have transferred then. For whatever reason, Heaps' ego was so huge coming out of high school, it created a no-win situation. I think it was a mistake to not redshirt him though. But the coaches can't force that on a kid. So I don't know. As I've said, I wish him success wherever he lands.


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## Dodger

HighNDry said:


> Posted by Dodger:
> 
> "Prove it. Show me one link where these coaches and players claim to live a higher standard than the "rest of us." Then, if you can prove it, which I don't think you can, explain how the coaches and players prove they don't live that high standard by their conduct. You made an outrageous claim. Support it. I'm all ears.
> 
> Heaps got shafted? My goodness. If Heaps won games, he wouldn't be in this situation. He threw 24 touchdowns and 17 interceptions in two years and got benched for not performing. After wasting 2 years of reps and coaches' practice time, Heaps is the one that got shafted? I don't think so."
> 
> _My response:
> 
> Where the heck have you been the last few years--especially last year. The media bombarded us with the news that BYU holds its players , coaches, and students to a higher standard. This standard is not only higher morally, but in the way they interact with peers, coaches, teachers, administrators, and the public in general. They "sign" an honor code of conduct and pledge to live by it. That honor code says way more than just not drinking or having premarital sex...I don't know all the details but from what I understand it is detailed. So yes, they do claim to live by a higher standard than most other universities.
> 
> I know all about the Honor Code. I was at BYU for a long time. But you said the players and coaches publicly claim to live a higher standard than the "rest of us." You've cited no example where players or coaches have said any such thing. You infer that claim and assign it to them while further inferring/u] that your standard is less than that. You also said that the way BYU allegedly treated Jake Heaps was below that standard while admitting you don't know all the details of the "higher standard."
> 
> If the truth comes out--which it rarely does in Provo, you would find that team members have indicated they play harder when Nelson is in than when Heaps is in. That's a big coaching and team problem. Coaches should teach their players to give the same effort regardless of who is at the reins. Doman has said he liked Nelson's style of play better--that would indicate he was more motivated and more creative in playing calls for Nelson than he would be for Heaps. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But your analysis is based on opinion, not on facts. I dispute that Doman said anything regarding liking one player better than another. Cite it.
> 
> The players and coaches go around doing firesides and preaching a "higher law" and a lifestyle that they think is superior to what others are living. You bet your life they proclaim to have the truth and best "standards." Even the coaches claim that they only want certain types of individuals to play for the Y. A candle that is set on a hill has the potential to shine light to all those around, but it can still tip over, start a fire, and burn people. You have to be very careful doing your alms before men. Jesus said, those who do their alms before men already have their reward.
> 
> Here we go again. You are telling us what "they" think. How can you know that? How do you know that they think that way they live is "superior" to the way the "rest of us" live? How can you be sure that they don't just think that they way they live is "different" from the way the "rest of us" live? They do proclaim to have the truth. But, they have not claimed to have the "best" standards, they only proclaim to have "standards." That's because BYU doesn't want players getting DUIs, raping women, or any of the other stuff you see coming out of other universities where there are little, if any, standards.
> 
> I'd prefer to leave the bible out of this but the reason Jesus said to set a light on a candle stick is "to let your light so shine before men that they may see your [standards], and glorify your Father, which is in heaven (Matt. 5:16). Arguably, you made my point.
> 
> When Mendenhall was interviewed for the job he asked the interviewer if it was a "calling" he was told no, but he continues to move forward as if it is a "calling." _
> That's no different from any professor on campus. But we are far-afield here.




The bottom line is that even if BYU's standards are "superior" to the standard lived by the "rest of us," that the school, the coaches, or the players have done something that violates that standard in their treatment of Jake Heaps. It's outrageous and if you impugn someone's character like that, you should have the proof to back it up.

I like you HighnDry and I hate to call you on the carpet. I just think that, for some people, BYU can never do the right thing. Either they are criticized for having standards and goals (to keep their players out of prison, quest for perfection, etc) or they are criticized when their coaches, players, etc don't live up to those goals (see Brandon Davies last year in the tournament or your belief that BYU didn't meet its own standards in the way it treated Jake Heaps).

No hard feelings. I just don't agree and I don't think you're being objective.


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## HighNDry

My post is way off topic so I deleted it.

Thanks!


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## Dodger

HighNDry said:


> I can't cite all my references. When you have time (I don't), go to BYU broadcasting web site and look for the BYU firesides put on by the football program, productions featuring Mendenhall (something like "Tradition, Spirit, Honor") and watch it. It talks all about standards and living above that of most.
> 
> Just for the record, I'm not bashing those standards. I have tried to live them my whole life and will continue to live them to my best ability.
> 
> I just see a very different BYU than what I've seen in the past. The university was a shining example of what a good (great) program is and what it stands for just by example. It seems to be more vocal and trying to be more visable with the underlining idea of promoting its faith. Still I don't see anything necessarily wrong with that. What I do see as a concern is the call for greatness leaving those who struggle behind. Heaps is struggling and while I don't know all the reasons, it seems like a program that claims to strive to help others, and look after the individual, is sure quick to say adios. I'm beginning to see this in other aspects of the faith. The founder Joseph Smith said that the Church would be proclaimed by the weak and simple to kings and rulers. The Church says all worthy young men should serve missions. This qualification used to be in worthiness, yet, we now see conference talks where they tell young men that it also means physical ability (weight), social skills, and mental capacity. They've even apoligized and said some young men who have a desire will not be able to go. I have witnessed Sunday school teachers called and released on personality traits only, yet the talks given by President Eyring tell us that it is our responsiblity to allow the spirit to teach us by those who we know are less experienced, less learned, and not as dynamic in personality. There was a book written a few years back by a prominent female member titled, "God Wants a Powerful People." I'm all for being all we can be and rising up and being the best human being we can be, but I still feel there is a place for the weak and simple and for the humble.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, I'm getting way off track. I hope you can see that I'm just worried that the BYU program is heading down waters that seem a bit strange from where they have been in the past.


I appreciate what you are saying. I'll try and find the video that you mentioned and check it out.

I think BYU has expectations on people that represent the school on the football field. In my opinion, I think utefans and others interpret that as BYU fans saying that we are "better" than they are. They call it "high and mighty" or "holier than thou." That's what I object to. I don't think I'm better than anyone else because I don't drink or smoke. I don't look down on others for doing those things. The fact that I don't do it is not an indictment of others. I think the same is true for the University, though others misinterpret the message.

The facts surrounding Jake leaving may never come out. But, I believe that the coaches did everything in their ability to help Jake because that's their job. He was the future of the program. But, I don't think that BYU's desire to look out for the individual means that they need to shield the individual from any type of adversity. Honestly, I don't think Jake knew what to do with adversity. He'd never had any and he didn't like it. I'm sure Bronco and Brandon did everything they could to talk him out of it. But, I think his decision was made when he got benched at Utah State. He was slighted and he wasn't going to take it. The coaches have to walk a fine line between their duty to the individual and their duty to the team. At the Utah State game, they had to do what is best for the team, even if it hurt Jake's feelings.

I don't think there is a perfect ward in the church. People have their problems with the organization and so long as they keep those problems distinct from the theology, I don't think that is a problem. People make mistakes. Even things in the church aren't always fair. My brother had to lose 90 pounds to be eligible to go on a mission. We did what we had to do to get him there. What I would say is that even the "weak and simple" still have to be minimumly capable. Joseph Smith was weak and simple but he was always capable. Moses was weak and simple, having speech problems, but he was always capable. I think there is definitely a place for the weak, simple, and humble and there always will be. But, the other half of being weak, simple, and humble, the scriptures point out, is that we take those things that make us weak and simple and turn them into strengths.

Jake didn't come in weak and simple. He came in to win multiple national championships. That type of attitude has never done well at BYU. LaVell was weak and simple when he came in and turned BYU into the greatest football program in the country one year. The call for greatness in the football program is for players to come in and become great, not just to come be great. The ones that come in great, don't seem to end up that way.

Don't worry too much about the program. Things are different than they used to be but different doesn't necessarily mean bad. If Bronco can keep 10 win seasons happening, there will be a year when things click and a 12 win season happens. The whole college football landscape has changed. But, even though BYU has to change along with it, the principles BYU lives by will not. BYU will continue to show that people with certain standards can still win championships.


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## GaryFish

So the next question now that Jake is leaving - what do the Cougs do for a back-up next year? Nelson's style tends to get him hurt for a game or 9 a year. So with no Jake, is Lark up to the challenge to be a solid back up and potential part time starter next year? I know nothing about the kid, beyond the dozen or so plays he got this year.


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## Huge29

GaryFish said:


> So the next question now that Jake is leaving - what do the Cougs do for a back-up next year? Nelson's style tends to get him hurt for a game or 9 a year. So with no Jake, is Lark up to the challenge to be a solid back up and potential part time starter next year? I know nothing about the kid, beyond the dozen or so plays he got this year.


Ammon Olson, should be good! I know his family a little and was a stud @ Alta.


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## coyoteslayer

Huge29 said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the next question now that Jake is leaving - what do the Cougs do for a back-up next year? Nelson's style tends to get him hurt for a game or 9 a year. So with no Jake, is Lark up to the challenge to be a solid back up and potential part time starter next year? I know nothing about the kid, beyond the dozen or so plays he got this year.
> 
> 
> 
> Ammon Olson, should be good! I know his family a little and was a stud @ Alta.
Click to expand...

People said the same things about Jake before he arrive, but look how that turned out. Ammon Olson might be a stud at the HS level, but no one knows about his performance at a college level yet.


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## Dodger

GaryFish said:


> So the next question now that Jake is leaving - what do the Cougs do for a back-up next year? Nelson's style tends to get him hurt for a game or 9 a year. So with no Jake, is Lark up to the challenge to be a solid back up and potential part time starter next year? I know nothing about the kid, beyond the dozen or so plays he got this year.


I believe in the market.

The gauntlet is down for the rest of the quarterbacks. Lark, Munns, or Olsen need to prove that he is the man for the job.

The market will work because the back-up is going to earn his spot based on what he does in practice not because he comes in with a lot of hype and press conferences.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> So with no Jake, is Lark up to the challenge to be a solid back up and potential part time starter next year? I know nothing about the kid, beyond the dozen or so plays he got this year.


James Lark was recruited to BYU ahead of Riley Nelson. He was one heck of a high school quarterback!


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## Huge29

coyoteslayer said:


> People said the same things about Jake before he arrive, but look how that turned out. Ammon Olson might be a stud at the HS level, but no one knows about his performance at a college level yet.


I guess Jordan Wynn would be in the same boat; on which measure do you prefer to rely, number of chicks he has bagged?


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## GaryFish

In light of Jake transferring, there is an interesting article on many transfers at BYU, Utah, and Utah State. It is an interesting read. 
http://www.ksl.com/?sid=18468831&nid=29 ... -transfers


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## hnt4food

looks like jake is headed to Kansas. http://www.ksl.com/?sid=18601851&nid=27 ... -to-kansas


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## GaryFish

Best of luck to him. KU isn't exactly a high profile program, which is probably good. There isn't any kind of expectation to be a national title contender there. And with Charlie Weiss, he knows the NFL and what it takes to be a successful QB at that level which should help Heaps achieve his goals. Best of luck to him. It seems like a good fit where he can get a new start and hopefully achieve what he has set out to do.


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## JuddCT

GaryFish said:


> There isn't any kind of expectation to be a national title contender there.


This statement should be true for all but maybe 10 programs in the nation.


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## GaryFish

You are absolutely correct Judd. 100%. Just like MLB baseball and the NBA - only those with the top payrolls can really expect to compete year in and year out.


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## Catherder

Is there an Iggy's in Lawrence KS? -Ov-


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## GaryFish

LOL! Nice!


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## Guest

no iggys there; they got bar called fox and the hound; it way better enyways look it up;


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