# patriotism?



## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

I attended the Ogden Pioneers Day Parade on Monday morning. I was glad to see the many people there supporting it. They were lined all up and down both sides of the parade route. At the beginning of the parade three marching men carried the nations colors our amazing flag. As we stood up, removed our caps, placed our hands over our hearts, I noticed to my left a group of people who did not stand, who did not place there hands on their hearts, and seemed oblivious to what the rest of us were doing. I glanced over at them said, "It's our nations colors, our flag, we stand and respect what it represents." They just glared at me while their kids ran around. Not one of them stood. When the veterans of foreign affairs group came through with their flag, one of the marchers walked right over to this group and tried to motion for them to stand. Again they just sat.


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

I think it's sad and pretty much fires me up.

It's mainly a generational thing in my opinion. "It's all about me" type attitudes.

Not only the Millennial generation, but the Gen X's who are raising them.

Patriotism? Seems like a thing only a few understand now days.

.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It is sad but what you observed is the normal in these days. 

It is also like the number of schools today that do not say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore.

I asked this very question on another forum and got two or three responses, people today just don't care.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Watch any pro sports event and the number of players who have their hand over their heart when the national anthem is played, very few!


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

We have it too easy nowadays. In doing genealogy I found out my ancestors marched from all over Louisiana to Florida and the Carolinas to fight in the Revolutionary war. My wife is from the Madison family if any of you know what that means. Thankfully we don't have issues honoring our colors or ancestors sacrifice


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Welcome to today's self indulgent, self important, narcissistic world.



















-DallanC


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

We're they younger people?


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

It is sad but I served so these bums would have the right to sit on their butts and show their disrespect.

I don't need their respect and it is their loss that they act that way. The sad part is they are teaching their kids the same shameful attitude.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

sawsman said:


> I think it's sad and pretty much fires me up.
> 
> It's mainly a generational thing in my opinion. "It's all about me" type attitudes.
> 
> ...


Actually, no. Us Gen X'ers are flat out tired and fed up with all the BS going on that the Boomers (the 'Me' generation) in control keep ramming down our throats.

You won't find a more patriotic group than us...


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> Actually, no. Us Gen X'ers are flat out tired and fed up with all the BS going on that the Boomers (the 'Me' generation) in control keep ramming down our throats.
> 
> You won't find a more patriotic group than us...


I agree to some extent. My point is that _us_ Gen X'ers need to teach our young'uns to show some respect. I know that it's not this way in every case, but seems to be in general to me. There's always some unpatriotic kinds in every generation no doubt.

bowguy - Thanks for your service!:usa2:


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

I'm one of the millennials of which you speak...

Regardless of the ages of those particular parade-goers, I think people who behave that way are still in the vast minority. 

I can't know for certain, but I tend to think that patriotism isn't taught/emphasized today as much as it used to be. We recited the pledge of allegiance once a week when I was in middle school, and very rarely while I was in high school. Patriotism seemed to be more of an afterthought than a priority in the public school system, and I credit my family and the BSA for what patriotism I do possess.

It seems like patriotism is hard-wired into the older generations more than it is for us. America had a really strong sense of national pride back when the baby boomers were growing up. Everyone believed America was the greatest nation in the world. I'm not sure young people have similar feelings today. Even though we have a lot to be proud of, it's easy to get lost in the wars, internal divisons, political BS, etc. and lose some faith in the USA.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

bowgy said:


> It is sad but I served so these bums would have the right to sit on their butts and show their disrespect.
> 
> I don't need their respect and it is their loss that they act that way. The sad part is they are teaching their kids the same shameful attitude.


Yes, thank you.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

.....


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I am so sad to see how little respect and appreciation people have for our country. 

I remember a time when the National Anthem or the mere sight of the flag brought a tear to my eyes. A true sense of pride and appreciation swelled up from deep within me. 

I am sad to know that my forebearers' sacrifice and pure grit has been squandered and wasted on ungrateful people who are more interested in themselves than the dream that once was America. Such a waste.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Bax

I think life has just gotten too easy. No one really has to work anymore. Many of us grew up having to hoe weeds in the garden and feeding a steer and pigs as part of chores. And it was good money to mow an acre of lawn for $5.

Now, people get ticked because the download time takes too long.

One day, though, it will come back. Something will happen to strike fear into everyone and then they'll realize what they have and fight like the dickens to keep it.


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## riptheirlips (Jun 30, 2008)

longbow said:


> I'd like the grab those unthankful little bastages by the ear and throw them in a time machine and take them back to 2/12/91 and have them help extradite a downed MH-53 (Pavlow) crew and anything else we could grab while the Iraqi Republican Guard hailed munitions. It wasn't like a video game where you get an extra life. When someone got shot right in front of your eyes, it was FOR REAL. And you were scared to death!
> I bet the next time a flag came by they would jump up with a tear in their eye and put their hand over their heart.


And thank you for your service.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Welcome to today's self indulgent, self important, narcissistic world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Years ago after my dad had passed on, my sister sent me all of his WWII pictures, medals and uniforms. In looking at his enlistment and discharge papers I was puzzled. Then I realized dad had lied about his age and joined the Navy a few months PRIOR to his 17th birthday at the age of 16. Also digging further I realized his dad had fought in WWI and then found some pictures that were puzzling as well. After digging into his background more I found out that not only had he fought in WWI but had enlisted in WWII and was a trainer back here in the states making him an oddity having been a veteran of both WWI and WWII. Neither of them ever spoke to us about their service. I understand now that both of them saw and experienced things that no human should ever have to see or experience and there was no need at all to have to share those horrors with their kids and grandkids.


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## bekins24 (Sep 22, 2015)

Clarq said:


> I'm one of the millennials of which you speak...
> 
> Regardless of the ages of those particular parade-goers, I think people who behave that way are still in the vast minority.
> 
> ...


I think you nailed it on the head with this one Clarq. Today people are too worried about political correctness to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school and it seems like someone can get offended be anything. I haven't had anyone in my immediate family for a couple of generations in the service, but that doesn't stop me from being grateful for those that have served and sacrificed so that we can all enjoy the life we have.


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## phantom (Sep 13, 2007)

What does standing with your hand over your heart have to do with patriotism? Have you served?


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

phantom said:


> What does standing with your hand over your heart have to do with patriotism? Have you served?


Respect?


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

phantom said:


> What does standing with your hand over your heart have to do with patriotism? Have you served?


It's a sign of respect. Much like standing when a lady enters the room, or holding doors open for others, or saying thank you, etc.....
How old are you? Just curious.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

phantom said:


> What does standing with your hand over your heart have to do with patriotism? Have you served?


I think it is to show respect for the history and sacrifices made in defense of our way of life.
My feeling is we should require national service for everyone when they turn 18.
Todays young people have never really had to think about committing themselves to anything.
And yes I haved served but don't think that is a requirement to show respect.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

longbow said:


> It's a sign of respect. Much like standing when a lady enters the room, or holding doors open for others, or saying thank you, etc.....
> How old are you? Just curious.


Respect...and morality...we need to get back to the basics.


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## bekins24 (Sep 22, 2015)

phantom said:


> What does standing with your hand over your heart have to do with patriotism? Have you served?


It shouldn't matter if someone has served or not. You still can show some respect


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

phantom said:


> What does standing with your hand over your heart have to do with patriotism? Have you served?


Yes I have served, but I didn't mention it to get thanks, but the thanks are appreciated even though not necessary, It was an honor to serve and I am still willing and prepared to serve if necessary.

My 92 year old father served in WWII and when he or other vets are in a parade I will stand and salute as they go by, my salute is to not only honor them and what the did or were willing to do but also to thank them for standing between my family and the enemy. I love my country and will honor it by standing and saluting its flag out of gratefulness and respect.

To answer your question and let you know why I salute I will quote the following:

Sec. 594. Conduct By Members Of The Armed Forces And Veterans Out Of Uniform During Hoisting, Lowering, Or Passing Of United States Flag.
Section 9 of Title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking "all persons present" and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: "all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. *All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart.* Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes."

http://www.gmasw.com/salute.htm


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

I have not served in the military. In fact, I wasn't even required to sign up for selective service because Jimmy Carter was president and did away with it for a two year period. But my dad lied to get into the army at age 16. I had an uncle that was captured and was part of the Bataan Death march and spent grueling abusive time in the prison camps. It really messed him up for the rest of his life. Other relatives have served too.

I was taught to respect the country, it's freedoms, the men who protect those freedoms, from elementary school, through Boy Scouts, and into my adult life. The flag represents everything that is good with the United States of America. To stand when that flag goes by and place my hand over my heart is the least I can do to show people I am thankful and respectful for this country and those who have defended and continue to defend it.

I purposely left out something in my original post because I didn't want to call out a specific ethnic group and have the racist card thrown at me. But I did notice that across the street from where I was standing many of the businesses are painted in red, green and white stripes. I thought to myself, here they come to raise their families, run a business, and reap the benefits of a free country and they can not stand to honor it? Maybe they have just not been educated that it is proper to stand, but then again, because of those freedoms, they have the right to not stand too. It just seems strange to not honor the colors of the country that gives you the opportunities to enjoy what you have.


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## phantom (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm 70 yrs old, served in the Navy. I too think military service should be mandatory.
I think there is a difference between patriotism and respect. What irritates me is people who wrap themselves in the flag, and call others non patriotic for their views. If someone wants to stand with their hand over their heart, fine, but don't judge their patriotism by it.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I think you should be publicly flogged for this behavior.

Furthermore, children should be required to have a class on flag respect and care.

Here are some things that I have hammered into my Boy Scouts' heads: http://www.military.com/flag-day/flag-ettiquette-dos-and-donts.html


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Whats the old phrase, "lead by example" ??? If so, someone needs to slap that black guy up side the head:










Sad I have to admit this, but even Hillary is showing more respect than Obama.

-DallanC


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Out of the 50 states and all of its territories, Utah has one of the lowest per capita armed forces enlistment rates in the nation. Less than .5 per 10,000 last time I looked. Most states are around 5 or 6 enlistments per 10,000. It's kind of a rarity to meet a veteran under the age of 60 in this state. I think that the more families that know a service member or have a family that has served would tamp out some of the non-respect issue. 

The funny thing is that the reason we have such a low enlistment rate is because of the LDS missionary program. Most kids go on missions and when they get back its time to go to school or get married and the window for military service has passed. In my experience the vast majority of returned missionaries and active LDS folks in general have a great respect for the country and it's flag. What they lack is a realistic view of military service--some adults I know have asked me how many bad guys I have killed like they are asking how many baptisms a returned missionary had--kind of amusing, kind of disconcerting


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Airborne said:


> Out of the 50 states and all of its territories, Utah has one of the lowest per capita armed forces enlistment rates in the nation. Less than .5 per 10,000 last time I looked. Most states are around 5 or 6 enlistments per 10,000. It's kind of a rarity to meet a veteran under the age of 60 in this state. I think that the more families that know a service member or have a family that has served would tamp out some of the non-respect issue.
> 
> The funny thing is that the reason we have such a low enlistment rate is because of the LDS missionary program. Most kids go on missions and when they get back its time to go to school or get married and the window for military service has passed. In my experience the vast majority of returned missionaries and active LDS folks in general have a great respect for the country and it's flag. What they lack is a realistic view of military service--some adults I know have asked me how many bad guys I have killed like they are asking how many baptisms a returned missionary had--kind of amusing, kind of disconcerting


Exactly.

-DallanC


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

longbow said:


> It's a sign of respect. Much like standing when a lady enters the room, or holding doors open for others, or saying thank you, etc.....


I think you hit the nail on the head. Patriotism is alive and well. But the value of respect has been all but forgotten.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

phantom said:


> I'm 70 yrs old, served in the Navy. I too think military service should be mandatory.
> I think there is a difference between patriotism and respect. What irritates me is people who wrap themselves in the flag, and call others non patriotic for their views. If someone wants to stand with their hand over their heart, fine, but don't judge their patriotism by it.


I assumed you were a young whipper snapper and I'm sure you caught that. I apologize for that.
I kinda-sorta agree with your above statement. I see your point. It's just hard for me to see an American flag in a parade and not rise and salute with a tear in my eye.
And thank you for your service sir.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Airborne said:


> Out of the 50 states and all of its territories, Utah has one of the lowest per capita armed forces enlistment rates in the nation. Less than .5 per 10,000 last time I looked. Most states are around 5 or 6 enlistments per 10,000. It's kind of a rarity to meet a veteran under the age of 60 in this state. I think that the more families that know a service member or have a family that has served would tamp out some of the non-respect issue.
> 
> The funny thing is that the reason we have such a low enlistment rate is because of the LDS missionary program. Most kids go on missions and when they get back its time to go to school or get married and the window for military service has passed. In my experience the vast majority of returned missionaries and active LDS folks in general have a great respect for the country and it's flag. What they lack is a realistic view of military service--some adults I know have asked me how many bad guys I have killed like they are asking how many baptisms a returned missionary had--kind of amusing, kind of disconcerting


I also see that. Although our missions were more humanitarian rather than proselytizing, both worthy causes, and not for two years. 
I'd love to see mandatory military service for our young men. I think it would help our workforce in the long run. I'd love to see some of these guys fresh out of high school taken from their mommy's clutches and sent to a place where mommy couldn't bail them out of every little tight spot they get themselves into. I know it would hurt video game sales but that would be OK with me.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Airborne said:


> Out of the 50 states and all of its territories, Utah has one of the lowest per capita armed forces enlistment rates in the nation. Less than .5 per 10,000 last time I looked. Most states are around 5 or 6 enlistments per 10,000. It's kind of a rarity to meet a veteran under the age of 60 in this state. I think that the more families that know a service member or have a family that has served would tamp out some of the non-respect issue.
> 
> The funny thing is that the reason we have such a low enlistment rate is because of the LDS missionary program. Most kids go on missions and when they get back its time to go to school or get married and the window for military service has passed. In my experience the vast majority of returned missionaries and active LDS folks in general have a great respect for the country and it's flag. What they lack is a realistic view of military service--some adults I know have asked me how many bad guys I have killed like they are asking how many baptisms a returned missionary had--kind of amusing, kind of disconcerting


In the LDS missionary mind they are fighting a different kind of war (the war between good and evil). I know not all agree with that, but that is their perspective. I hear prayers in church offered for the missionaries and the service personnel.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

HighNDry said:


> In the LDS missionary mind they are fighting a different kind of war (the war between good and evil). I know not all agree with that, but that is their perspective. I hear prayers in church offered for the missionaries and the service personnel.


While there is no longer a valid reason with a volunteer armed force to use a mission to avoid military service there was the last time there was a draft.

It was my experience that males who were elgible for the draft were encouraged to go on a mission to avoid being drafted at my local level. I was even guaranteed a deferal even if I was drafted but not yet on my way.

Not that there were not many others also looking for a way to avoid service that could not play the mission card.

Like I said before everybody (male and female alike) should serve at least 1 year of national service (not just military) after high school graduation and before moving on to whatever else they want to do in life.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

middlefork said:


> While there is no longer a valid reason with a volunteer armed force to use a mission to avoid military service there was the last time there was a draft.
> 
> It was my experience that males who were elgible for the draft were encouraged to go on a mission to avoid being drafted at my local level. I was even guaranteed a deferal even if I was drafted but not yet on my way.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Could be. I missed the Vietnam war by about 5 years so I don't know what the prospective missionaries were told. I would be confident that if the young men of the LDS church were direly needed (meaning the president of the U.S. asked for their service) the leaders of the church would encourage them to volunteer. It happened in the pioneer past.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

HighNDry said:


> I would be confident that if the young men of the LDS church were direly needed (meaning the president of the U.S. asked for their service) the leaders of the church would encourage them to volunteer. It happened in the pioneer past.


Sometimes to fight for the US government (Mormon Battalion), sometimes to fight against the US government (Nauvoo Legion/Utah War), and always to fight those darn rampaging Indians! I love Utah history-->it is fascinating!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I know of quite a few young Mormon men that went on a mission when they turned 19 and then were drafted into the army when they returned home and lost the deferment back in the mid 60's-early 70's


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

longbow said:


> It's a sign of respect


It's the symbol for a pledge of loyalty. Been used for centuries.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

phantom said:


> What does standing with your hand over your heart have to do with patriotism? Have you served?


Still have your Trophy boat?

.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Young men are already on the docket for mandatory service. It's called registering for selective service. It's up to the gov't to call on them.

A military of volunteers is the strongest kind if fighting force because they believe in what they fight for.

Requiring mandatory military service (as in boot camp and uniforms) kinda goes against what the Constitution stands for. I would hate to see the gov't step in to do parenting to make men out of boys. I would hate to see gov't step in to do parenting to make women out of girls. Because the gov't will not make good parents of fathers and mothers out of these men and women. That is where the scourge is, degradation of the family, I don't care what faith you are, it's all the same. Just my opinion though...


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## phantom (Sep 13, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> Still have your Trophy boat?
> 
> .


Yes I do, keep it at strawberry.


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