# Credit Card issue/?



## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

So the card I used to apply with for the big game hunts this year was compromised in March. I didn't update the Dwr until a few days ago once guys started posting that their cards had been hit.

I called the 800 # and spoke with someone said that there were 5 rounds of attempted charges. They did the 1st last week, and at this point he and his managers are all locked out of the system. 

He said that the successful and unsuccessful emails would be sent prior to the 2nd round of attempted card charges, so that if anyone doesn't have a current pending charge (other than if your card company is slow to report it or something) that there will be no need to even check on new hits on my card until after I get my email results.

Anyone else heard this before? He said hunters have until June 3 to provide accurate payment info.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I've paid in August for a tag before... just say'n.


-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

This is a smart move by the folks conducting the draw in Fallon....

They have had an increasing problem with 'Denied cards' ...

I think sending out E-mails early and letting hunters know
they have drawn is good.
Then they can fix the funding by June 2nd or loose their permit.....


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that they need to change the requirements to if the card is denied that the tag goes to the next in line. 

People have had a few months to get their stuff in order and if you don't have the money in the account or if you were lazy and didn't notify them when the card information was stolen then tough luck.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> I think that they need to change the requirements to if the card is denied that the tag goes to the next in line.
> 
> People have had a few months to get their stuff in order and if you don't have the money in the account or if you were lazy and didn't notify them when the card information was stolen then tough luck.


So a card gets compromised a few days before the draw and a person should loose their tag? No thanks.

-DallanC


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## Silentanddeadly (Aug 26, 2015)

I agree with goofey like my problem was card was cancelled the day they started hitting so I don't think I should not get my tag if I drew and am capable of paying


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Maybe they should just make us put the whole permit up front, like other states do.

I honestly don't like that either (my Colorado sheep app was crazy expensive, and it was only for a bonus point). But it might increase my odds of drawing.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Clarq said:


> Maybe they should just make us put the whole permit up front, like other states do.
> 
> I honestly don't like that either (my Colorado sheep app was crazy expensive, and it was only for a bonus point). But it might increase my odds of drawing.


We did this in Utah for MANY years,
Then it was deemed to conflict with Utah's gambling laws......


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Clarq said:


> Maybe they should just make us put the whole permit up front, like other states do.
> 
> I honestly don't like that either (my Colorado sheep app was crazy expensive, and it was only for a bonus point). But it might increase my odds of drawing.


If Utah would of went to payment after the tag was drawn I would of been on 2 or 3 LE hunts and a couple of OIL hunts. But for a long time it was hard to come up with the money up front for a LE elk at $800 and a OIL hunt at $1500 to just let sit. Now a non resident can put in for everything and not draw anything.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> So a card gets compromised a few days before the draw and a person should loose their tag? No thanks.
> 
> -DallanC


And how often would that happen?

I know that the couple of times that I have had problems with my cards that everything was taken care of in a couple of days and if I had wanted to the CC company would accept charges that I OKed on the card and freeze or deny everything else


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> And how often would that happen?
> 
> I know that the couple of times that I have had problems with my cards that everything was taken care of in a couple of days and if I had wanted to the CC company would accept charges that I OKed on the card and freeze or deny everything else


I had my draw card locked down once because I filled up with gas, drove to Las Vegas and filled up soon as we made the valley there. It was a legitimate purchase, I was in Vegas. It still locked down my card though as "suspicious behavior".

I just think there are valid reasons that someones payment method might fail, and those people should get the benefit of the doubt to get it fixed in a timely manner.

-DallanC


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

DallanC said:


> I had my draw card locked down once because I filled up with gas, drove to Las Vegas and filled up soon as we made the valley there. It was a legitimate purchase, I was in Vegas. It still locked down my card though as "suspicious behavior".
> 
> I just think there are valid reasons that someones payment method might fail, and those people should get the benefit of the doubt to get it fixed in a timely manner.
> 
> -DallanC


Those types of locks are easily reversible and you should be called immediately to confirm or deny the charges.

I left my card at the restaurant Friday night, realized it first thing Saturday morning. WEnt back to restaurant and they had dozens of cards left there, but not mine. Just called DWR this morning and after being on hold for 15 minutes or so quickly gave them the new card number and we are back in business.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

What if that happened while you were in the hills on a scouting or back pack trip where you had no phone service and it cost you a once in a lifetime tag. You would be singing a differant tune.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

hazmat said:


> What if that happened while you were in the hills on a scouting or back pack trip where you had no phone service and it cost you a once in a lifetime tag. You would be singing a differant tune.


That is where payment up front would trump the pay afterward.

All they would have to do is to get the legislature involved to make it happen, it isn't like they haven't done it before.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I hope it gets resolved easily for you, UTMM. They are good to work with in getting it straightened out.

As for the rest of the hijack, I don't see the UDWR ever requiring the full payment up front. The application fee is just too lucrative for them to consider implementing a strategy which could reduce applications.

The full fee up front has nothing to do with the "gambling laws" in Utah. The "gambling" issue is that the State can't charge more than the draw/management of the draw costs. (Example, the State can't charge $25 per appl if their expenses are only $7.50)

The full fee upfront was done away after the legal interpretation concluded that the State can not charge a credit card for a service they do not provide-- in this case the State was advised that they could charge the app fee (as the service is rendered then), but they could not charge a credit card the permit fee if the applicant didn't obtain the permit. 

Now my memory isn't perfect, but I remember that 5 years ago the State spent over $80,000 in fees incurred while re-running credit cards. (It costs $$$ to pay someone to contact the applicant, plus other fees)


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Packout said:


> The full fee upfront was done away after the legal interpretation concluded that the State can not charge a credit card for a service they do not provide-- in this case the State was advised that they could charge the app fee (as the service is rendered then), but they could not charge a credit card the permit fee if the applicant didn't obtain the permit.


That is interesting. I wonder where that interpretation comes from and what challenge they were worried about?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> That is interesting. I wonder where that interpretation comes from and what challenge they were worried about?


I believe this was discussed in a Wildlife Board Meeting years ago. Utah was one of the first States to go to only on-line payment. I recall they were told it was an interpretation of the law governing charges to cards. (It seems like this was 8 or so years ago) Multiple people spoke on the issue, including the Division's legal counsel-- but I don't remember who said what well enough to post it on the interweb.....


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Does anyone "think", or experienced any delay in drawing L.E. tags when they put in as a group? And how about this scenario , Say someone puts in for LE deer with someone else and then later on puts in for all the rest of HIS choices on another application. Both are being paid from the same credit card. Would it matter? or does it all have to be on one application?:der:


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Packout said:


> As for the rest of the hijack, I don't see the UDWR ever requiring the full payment up front. The application fee is just too lucrative for them to consider implementing a strategy which could reduce applications.


Having a application fee plus requiring the money up front hasn't stopped other states. Colorado as a example charges a application fee along with requiring the money up front during the application period.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Have the emails gone out yet?


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

7MM RELOADED said:


> Does anyone "think", or experienced any delay in drawing L.E. tags when they put in as a group? I applied with a buddy as a group for LE Elk and my card was hit last Thursday afternoon for both of our tags.
> And how about this scenario , Say someone puts in for LE deer with someone else and then later on puts in for all the rest of HIS choices on another application. Both are being paid from the same credit card. Would it matter? or does it all have to be on one application?:der:No experience on this one - sorry.
> 
> See red.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Huge29 said:


> ... quickly gave them the new card number and we are back in business.


I only have *one* single credit card, period. If a card got compromised it would take minimally a week to send me a new one.

-DallanC


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## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Just to be clear, I wasn't complaining at all, it was my fault for not switching my card earlier. I actually thought I did, since I switched the card I had on file with Wyoming and New Mexico. I was simply pointing out that there would be no subsequent attempts to hit cards until AFTER emails are sent. So if you haven't been hit, I don't think u will be hit until after u get your email. 

Also I wish the state would charge the full tag fee upfront.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

CPAjeff said:


> 7MM RELOADED said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone "think", or experienced any delay in drawing L.E. tags when they put in as a group? I applied with a buddy as a group for LE Elk and my card was hit last Thursday afternoon for both of our tags.
> ...


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Packout said:


> Now my memory isn't perfect, but I remember that 5 years ago the State spent over $80,000 in fees incurred while re-running credit cards. (It costs $$$ to pay someone to contact the applicant, plus other fees)


That is expensive. I wonder if it would be more expensive to issue the refund checks to all those that were unsuccessful?

I previously liked the idea of paying the full price up front, but after the hassle I went through getting my Wyoming refund last year, I'm reconsidering that thought.

I didn't receive my WY refund until Sept. Either the check was lost in the mail or they didn't send it, but they had to wait until the end of July to confirm that it wasn't cashed. Then they send me a letter that I had to get notarized, but my name was spelled wrong on the form, and the notary wouldn't accept it. Took a couple of weeks to get a new form sent, then had to get it notarized, and sent back to WY. Finally mid Sept, my refund arrived. I realize this is a edge case that typically doesn't happen, but it was a pain.


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## stick&string89 (Jun 21, 2012)

Pay for the tags up front if you want to play is my opinion. And get rid of the trial hunting program. They should only be able to obtain a tag after the draw. 

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk


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## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

I believe in opportunity for everyone. Even though I could afford to front the whole fee for the tags I want there are people that it would cause an undo hardship to fork out several thousand dollars for the chance tags for their family. I have no problem with the way the draws are handled and the way payments are received. Allowing a person that has had their CC stolen to submit a new CC is just not a big deal. Why should I be penalized because some no good thief decides that being a lazy crook is better than getting an honest job.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I would say that the amount of problems with cards because of fraud is very slim, but the majority of the problems comes from debit cards not having sufficient funds in the account to cover the price of the tag or tags that are drawn.

Perhaps if they went to credit cards only and didn't allow debit cards it would be better but I still prefer the money up front idea. If you don't have the funds to do it at the application time due to hardships odds are you won't have them when it comes time to pay for the tag.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

If they change the application deadline to the end of April, and had refund checks mailed out by the end of May, it would be easier to float the full tag price for a month, instead of 3. We would also have more information before applying as the tag numbers would be set.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

elkantlers said:


> I believe in opportunity for everyone. Even though I could afford to front the whole fee for the tags I want there are people that it would cause an undo hardship to fork out several thousand dollars for the chance tags for their family.


I dont understand that. They are putting in... they know there is a chance they could draw ALL the tags requiring that same bulk fee to be paid. If they cannot afford it, why do they put in?

-DallanC


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

DallanC said:


> They know there is a chance they could draw ALL the tags requiring that same bulk fee to be paid. If they cannot afford it, why do they put in?
> 
> -DallanC


I couldn't agree more DallanC!

If they went to an upfront charging process, I would think the number of nonresident applicants who apply for all the species would certainly decrease - try explaining to your spouse why you need to send the state of Utah $7,500 - $8,000.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

CPAjeff said:


> I couldn't agree more DallanC!
> 
> If they went to an upfront charging process, I would think the number of nonresident applicants who apply for all the species would certainly decrease - try explaining to your spouse why you need to send the state of Utah $7,500 - $8,000.


Count me as one of those non residents. I can sit here in Colorado knowing that the odds of me drawing are so far away that I don't need to worry, but all the time building points for all the OIL species. Then someday when I move back to Utah I'll have all kinds of OIL points not to mention deer and elk points and can pick and choose which tag I want.

If I had to foot the bill for all the OIL and LE deer and elk tags that I put in for I would quickly narrow my choice down to one or two species.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

Packout said:


> As for the rest of the hijack, I don't see the UDWR ever requiring the full payment up front. The application fee is just too lucrative for them to consider implementing a strategy which could reduce applications.
> 
> The full fee up front has nothing to do with the "gambling laws" in Utah. The "gambling" issue is that the State can't charge more than the draw/management of the draw costs. (Example, the State can't charge $25 per appl if their expenses are only $7.50)
> 
> The full fee upfront was done away after the legal interpretation concluded that the State can not charge a credit card for a service they do not provide-- in this case the State was advised that they could charge the app fee (as the service is rendered then), but they could not charge a credit card the permit fee if the applicant didn't obtain the permit.


Finally..... somebody who gets it.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The states that do up front fees actually issue a check to reimburse you? Why not just reimburse the card? 

I still am curious how they came to the conclusion that charging a card before the service occurs illegal. I am charged for my flights before I fly every time. This happens in the real world with goods and services regularly.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> The states that do up front fees actually issue a check to reimburse you? Why not just reimburse the card?


Great question. I don't know about other states, but that's how Wyoming does it. Normally, the refund check comes a couple weeks after the draw results are posted. You'd think they could save some money by automating the refunds as part of the draw process, and not having to manually mail checks. On the other hand, maybe there are lots of checks that don't get cashed, so they make more money that way.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

Because they're knowingly "selling" more tags than they offer. If someone from Wyoming, or one of the other states that "sells" the tag before the drawing, wrote something like "Wyoming Moose Tag" on their check, and the state cashed it, the state had better issue that person a tag. :mrgreen:


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Do they send out an email even if you don't draw?


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Oh ya!! Most the emails they send out say "UNSUCCESSFUL"


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> The states that do up front fees actually issue a check to reimburse you? Why not just reimburse the card?


This year WY put the money back on the card which was used to apply. It is the first year they have done that. Colorado still issues a check. Kansas issues a check too. Nevada just charges the app fee (like Utah).

So in Utah there were 130,000+ general season deer applicants-- at $10 a pop that is over $1.3 million just for the deer applications. Figure each of those applicants has to buy a hunting license and just at the resident rate of $30 that is another $4 million or so. There is no way they want to do anything which decreases that income. --Including changing the point system to only one deer point/draw.

And before we throw Utah under the bus too much, Idaho, AZ, and NV charge $150+ just to apply, Colorado ends up being around $40 per species if you didn't have a tag there the year prior, and Wyoming is $30 to $100 per point plus a $15 app fee per species. Some States are making more off of the application process than off of the actual tags.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The money for Arizona is for a hunting license that you need to purchase or put in for the draw in Arizona just like Utah does except if you draw your tag in Arizona the license still needs to be valid or you need to purchase another one to legally hunt. Colorado doesn't require you to purchase a hunting license but if you want to accumulate points you either need a license from the previous year or pay money for it.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> The states that do up front fees actually issue a check to reimburse you? Why not just reimburse the card?


Colorado didn't even let me use a card for my sheep application. I had to do it old school and send a cashier's check by mail. I'm still trying to figure out why they make things so difficult (especially since their residents are given the privilege of applying online).

Oh well, I figure making it a huge pain for nonresidents to apply has to increase my odds a little bit.


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## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Well I called in tonight, they were able to change my card, and it immediately got hit for my dedicated hunter tag I applied for. So all is well haha!


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## bubs (Nov 3, 2015)

I was just going to let you know that I had a similar issue. I couldn't change my card online a few days ago, but just tried again and it let me. It immediately charged my card for my sons deer tag.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Packout, why wouldn't Utah be able to charge the same application fee even if they required the full price of the tag up front? I don't view those as mutually exclusive things. Refund the price of the tag for unsuccessful applicants. Retain cost of application fee.


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Packout, why wouldn't Utah be able to charge the same application fee even if they required the full price of the tag up front? I don't view those as mutually exclusive things. Refund the price of the tag for unsuccessful applicants. Retain cost of application fee.


They could do that, but i think the issue is hunters would apply for less hunts which would mean less applications filled out by that hunter. In turn, less application fees, less money made by the DWR. That is how i understand it.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well TS,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Then Utahn's would be ' Gambling ' on a product that might NOT be provided....;-).


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## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

DallanC said:


> I dont understand that. They are putting in... they know there is a chance they could draw ALL the tags requiring that same bulk fee to be paid. If they cannot afford it, why do they put in?
> 
> -DallanC


There is no possible way to draw ALL the tags you apply for. If you draw a LE tag there is no way to draw a OIL tag or general deer tag if the LE tag was for deer.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

A simple way that they could work it for everyone since you can only draw one LE or OIL a year is to require the applicant to submit funds for the most expensive tag that they have put in for such as the OIL tag then if they draw the LE tag refund the surplus. But still require the funds up front.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Fishracer has it right-- it is all about getting more applications, which generates more money. Billy can afford to apply Dad, Ma, Gpa, Gma, Father-in-law, Mother-in-law, wife and Uncle Joe for a deer permit because the app fees come to $90. If he had to pay $90 + $360 for $450 maybe he can't afford that and only applies for 5 instead of 9 and the state loses out on $40 in app fees from Billy. Or OIL buff he can afford the $90 in app fees but not the additional $3,717 in the permit fees so he only applies for himself and the State loses out on $80 in app fees. I have no clue how much an upfront payment would effect the odds or fees collected, but my guess is odds would be better and fees collected would be worse. Or maybe people are so invested they'd starve for a while to cover the costs and neither odds nor fees collected would change much.

Another example, we have 3 point systems for buck deer-- which they make $10 for each application. No other state does that. I spent $30 applying myself for buck deer in Utah. I'm ok with that, but in the long run it makes the system too convoluted and taxing on the average consumer and increases the wait to draw permits. 

The Wildlife Board decided to not change the point-loophole last year because it would have cost $10,000 or so in a one-time fee from Fallon. I bet the change fee, to make the draw an upfront payment or highest cost of license, would be much more than $10k.
.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Critter said:


> The money for Arizona is for a hunting license that you need to purchase or put in for the draw in Arizona just like Utah does except if you draw your tag in Arizona the license still needs to be valid or you need to purchase another one to legally hunt. Colorado doesn't require you to purchase a hunting license but if you want to accumulate points you either need a license from the previous year or pay money for it.


This is one of my biggest gripes with the current Utah system...I'm required to have a valid "hunting" license to even submit an application. Yet, I do not need to have a valid "hunting" license to hunt in Utah. WTH!?

So if I buy a "hunting" license to submit applications and don't draw any of them, haven't I just paid the great state of Utah for something they did NOT provide (ie. the opportunity to HUNT)? They should just call it an application permit since that is all it really gives you the ability to do by itself.

Really they just pick and choose the rules/laws they want to follow and disregard the others. The decision of which ones to follow is made easier by how profitable the followed ones are or how un-profitable the not followed ones are.

Charge the full price up front is my vote. Reduce the application pool by eliminating all the people that are only willing to pay if they are successful rather than those that are willing to pay up front for the opportunity to be successful.


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## nocturnalenemy (Jun 26, 2011)

KineKilla said:


> This is one of my biggest gripes with the current Utah system...I'm required to have a valid "hunting" license to even submit an application. Yet, I do not need to have a valid "hunting" license to hunt in Utah. WTH!?


Totally agree with this.



KineKilla said:


> So if I buy a "hunting" license to submit applications and don't draw any of them, haven't I just paid the great state of Utah for something they did NOT provide (ie. the opportunity to HUNT)? They should just call it an application permit since that is all it really gives you the ability to do by itself.


Your hunting license does provide you the opportunity to hunt. You can hunt small game and you can also buy and hunt any OTC big game tag.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

nocturnalenemy said:


> Totally agree with this.
> 
> Your hunting license does provide you the opportunity to hunt. You can hunt small game and you can also buy and hunt any OTC big game tag.


I stand corrected.

We can hunt small game without a big game permit but we can't buy a big game OTC or otherwise without also buying a small game permit..."but I'm just here to hunt Deer!"


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## Withabow (Sep 18, 2013)

Same thing happened to me a few years ago and they called me for a new card. No troubles. Hope it's the same for you.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

From my draw email



UTDWR said:


> We have begun to charge permit fees to credit/debit cards and your payment may have processed already. However, if your credit/debit card information has changed since the application period, you may need to contact us at (800) 221-0659 or visit www.utah-hunt.com/UDWR_CC_Update to update your credit card. (Operators are available to assist you 24 hours a day seven days a week.) After five unsuccessful charges, we will try to contact you a minimum of four times. If, after these efforts, the permit fee has not been paid, the permit will be offered to an alternate.Permits remaining after the drawing may be purchased on a first-come, first-served basis at participating license agents, Division offices and online at wildlife.utah.gov. For details, see page 22 of the 2016 Utah Big Game Guidebook. Visit wildlife.utah.gov/bginfo to view a list of remaining permits.


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