# Shot size for grouse



## Spotnstalk (Jun 25, 2014)

Y'all shoot grouse with 6 or 8 shot? Never hunted them and I know they are a larger bird but seem to be less flighty than others


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## chukarflusher (Jan 20, 2014)

I use 5 or 6 shot mostly 5 because that's what I buy in bulk for chukars and pheasant


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## Spotnstalk (Jun 25, 2014)

I figured 6 would be better. I use it on pheasant and like sized birds but I've also whacked down plenty of planted pheasant and chukar in Kansas with 8. Wild birds are usually a lot more flighty meaning not as close a shot though


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have shot grouse with 4, 5, 6, and 9 shot. 1/4" ball bearings, rocks, 150 grain 30-06, 150 grain 7mm Rem mag, and a .54 muzzle loader with all the last being somewhere other than Utah that allows it. 

They really are not that hard to kill but if they are flying sometimes a tree will get into the way.


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## bamacpl (Jun 1, 2010)

#6 for me....although I have shot them with #7 1/2 & #8


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## reb8600 (Sep 8, 2007)

Critter said:


> I have shot grouse with 4, 5, 6, and 9 shot. 1/4" ball bearings, rocks, 150 grain 30-06, 150 grain 7mm Rem mag, and a .54 muzzle loader with all the last being somewhere other than Utah that allows it.
> 
> They really are not that hard to kill but if they are flying sometimes a tree will get into the way.


And what states allow you to use a rifle for Grouse?


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

#6 & #7 1/2 low brass for me.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Colorado for one. Rifles, pellet guns, sling shots, and shotguns for both blues or their new name of dusky and ptarmigan.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Blues and Sharpies I might go 6- rug 7 1/2 and 8's. This morning 2 straight away shots - two shots going to my right- 7 1/2 's.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

For me, whatever is cheap. Most all of my grouse are very close shots and I have no trouble knocking them down with cheap target loads


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## Spotnstalk (Jun 25, 2014)

That's been my experience with forest grouse. My dad and his cousin killed 2 in Montana. The first was shot off a branch and the other just say there so my dad killed it with a stick he threw at it lol


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Whirley sticks and rocks probably kill more grouse than anything I know. So id think any shot you have would work.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Critter said:


> Colorado for one. Rifles, pellet guns, sling shots, and shotguns for both blues or their new name of dusky and ptarmigan.


The two subspecies of "Blue grouse" are Dusky and Sooty, ptarmigan are entirely different birds. We have all three in Utah.

#4 shot


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

I like 1 1/8 oz of 6's because you don't blow up Ruffed Grouse, but it is heavy enough to bring down blues. Birds in good range anyway.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

reb8600 said:


> And what states allow you to use a rifle for Grouse?


Wyoming


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

#4 for grouse? Oh, I see.. you shoot through the tree... genius! Just kidding... what do I know?


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

7/8 oz of lead 7-1/2s.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Trooper said:


> #4 for grouse? Oh, I see.. you shoot through the tree... genius! Just kidding... what do I know?


You only have to hit them with one well placed pellet. With number 4 I'm gonna hit them more than once, but unlike with smaller shot, and denser patterns, I'm not gonna put 20 pellets in them. Also, larger shot has better kinetic energy and there for better penetration, especially at longer ranges. I can't see using shot smaller than 6 for grouse.

Its the same as standing in front of a big picture window and throwing two hand fulls of pea gravel at it, and barely getting it to break, or standing further back with a hand full of inch minus and getting the same job done.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Lonetree said:


> The two subspecies of "Blue grouse" are Dusky and Sooty, ptarmigan are entirely different birds. We have all three in Utah.
> 
> #4 shot


We don't have sooty grouse in Utah. If I was gonna get called on anything, it should have been this. Sooty grouse are found on the West Coast. We do have two different blue grouse in Utah though. Does anyone know the difference?


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## Spotnstalk (Jun 25, 2014)

Ruffed and dusky is what I seen when planning my hunt and the only difference I seen was in the tail feathers and their range


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

Spotnstalk said:


> Ruffed and dusky is what I seen when planning my hunt and the only difference I seen was in the tail feathers and their range


They're actually pretty different in size, behavior and habitat. If you kill one of each- you won't have any difference telling them apart.


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## Spotnstalk (Jun 25, 2014)

Good to know


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## Spotnstalk (Jun 25, 2014)

Am I wrong in saying that was the 2 birds originally called blues though? Cause that's what I took from the reg book


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## Spotnstalk (Jun 25, 2014)

Checked it myself and according to wiki dusky and sooty were the species once thought to be the same and called blue grouse


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Spotnstalk said:


> Ruffed and dusky is what I seen when planning my hunt and the only difference I seen was in the tail feathers and their range


There is a big difference between these two birds, and depending on where you are hunting them, you could encounter other grouse species as well, that you need a separate permit to hunt. I know a spot where you can find dusky/blues, ruffed, sharptail, and sage grouse all within a half mile of each other.

Years ago I watched a couple of guys shoot 2 sharp tailed grouse, and then argue over whether they were ruffed grouse or blue grouse. One theory tossed around was that they were "hybrids"??????

If you don't know what it is, don't shoot it.


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## Spotnstalk (Jun 25, 2014)

Fortunately from what I can tell by the reg book I might have an overlap in dusky and ruffed but that should be it


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Spotnstalk said:


> Checked it myself and according to wiki dusky and sooty were the species once thought to be the same and called blue grouse


Yes, dusky and sooty grouse were once both known as "blue grouse", and were thought to be the same species. If you ever get to the PNW, you will find that in many cases sooty grouse look more like our duskys, than they do the grouse they call duskys up there.

To be clear I intentionally threw in the sooty grouse thing to muck up the water, no one seemed to have caught it.

Dusky grouse used to be called blue grouse, but ruffed grouse have always been called ruffed grouse, and are very different birds.

If you count ptarmigan and subspecies, we have 7 different grouse species in Utah.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I use the same cheap federal value pack stuff in either 7 1/2 or 8 that I use for doves. Blues/dusky aren't that hard to put down.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Dusky (or blues, as many here have called them for years) are very distinguishable from Ruffed grouse. Size is the first indicator, then habitat, color, and physical features such as the tuft of feathers on the head of ruffed grouse, as well as the comb over their eye. While there can be overlap in species habitat, it is generally very easy to tell them apart if you become even basically familiar with the features of each. Spend a little time looking at mounted birds next time you go into Cabela's or Scheel's. It will help you on your next hunt. 

Here's a tailgate pic for some reference. There are 2 dusky, and 1 ruffed here. The size difference is noticeable, and I did shoot these birds within about 1/4 mile or less of each other, but the ruffed was found in dense pine trees, with some aspen mixed in, and the dusky grouse were found in more open areas, adjacent to aspens.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I guess maybe I should weigh in on the shot size too. I have always used light loads on grouse. While I have used 12 gauge for forest grouse in the past, I won't do it unless I have to now. I prefer an open choke in my 20 gauge these days, with 7/8oz light game load of #6 for blues and #7.5 for ruffs. I never get long shots at grouse, so I like a lighter load to avoid too much meat damage. As has been mentioned, these birds go down easy, so there isn't much need to go heavy. With a few more pellets, and an open choke, it makes close shots a bit easier to make. Also, if you aren't morally opposed to popping one off a branch or the ground, it won't make them into feather burgers.


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## COWAN (Oct 7, 2012)

I hunt grouse with a over/under .410 and I use a 2 1/2" shell with 9 shot thru a modified choke for my first shot and a 3" shell with 6 shot thru a full choke for a second shot. Usually for me, after my first shot, if another grouse flushes by the time I get on it the bird is a ways further away than the first bird was so that's why I like the 3" 6 shot load. With this set up I usually don't tear up the grouse.


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## jeff788 (Aug 7, 2009)

Let me share a few data points:

Because grouse are "dumb" and "easy to kill" my friend went and bought some cheap target loads to shoot grouse out of his 12 gauge. He bought the Winchester Xpert game & target steel #7 1/2 shot 1 1/8 oz loads. He shot two grouse at ~25 yards. There was a big cloud of feathers in both cases, but neither bird dropped. After seeing this twice I asked him what shell he was shooting and I discovered the problem. #7 1/2 steel is definitely too small for grouse. If you are going to hunt with steel shot (there's no problem with it so long as you use the right size shot), use at least a #5 or #4 (especially if blues are likely).

I've seen several grouse shot at ~10-15 yards with #7 1/2 shot 1 1/8 oz lead. At under 30 yards #7 1/2 shot lead will generally penetrate deep enough to quickly kill the bird. The problem is that there are 394 pellets in 1 1/8 oz of #7 1/2 lead shot. Even with a fairly open choke this is likely going to ruin a lot of meat unless the pattern is centered on the head. There is no reason to use a load with that many pellets on relatively large birds (larger target) where close shots are common.

Finally, I shot my first grouse with my new 20 gauge last week. I used some shells that I bought and patterned for pheasant and chukar. 1 1/4 oz of #6 shot (281 pellets). This is really more pellets than are needed, but I patterned it with an IC choke at 30 yards and it looked pretty good but not too dense. I brought these shells because some of the areas I hunt blues are pretty open and 30-40 yard shots are common. I shot a young blue at about 30 yards and it dropped immediately. 5-7 pellets hit the bird and most of the pellets were just under the skin on the offside of the bird. After seeing this I'm thinking that for grouse there would be no harm in switching to #5 lead shot and either 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz (170 or 191 pellets). Fewer pellets will damage less meat, and the bigger pellets will likely pass straight through so there will be fewer to pick out of the meat at the table. With the proper choke, there should still be still enough pattern density to quickly bring a bird down and maintain a good sized effective pattern.

With all of that being said, if you are going to shoot them on the ground or out of a tree at <15 yards, aim for the head and shoot whatever you want. But if you are going to shoot them on the wing then it's worth thinking a little more carefully about what you're shooting.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I have used lead 7 1/2 my whole life and never had a grouse that I shot survive. Easy kill, good eating.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

I've always been in the "grouse die easy, so small shot is the way to go" school. But, I was raised in Wisconsin where the 5-10yd shots that I seem to get here all the time are pretty rare. Sooo... I'm intrigued by those of you who are shooting fours and fives. I like the idea that less pellets equals less meat damage. I guess my question is this, do the larger (but fewer) pellets pass through a flying away bird and tear up the breast meat? My 7.5's generally don't make it very deep, so a "going away" grouse is generally going to be more or less perfect eating. That said, I have pulverized some side shots and completely spoiled the coming-right-at-you bird. (Wounded grouse are super rare in my experience and I can remember maybe two grouse that ever got shot and still had enough gas to run on me, so the higher killing power isn't too concerning to me.)


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## jeff788 (Aug 7, 2009)

You guys definitely have more grouse killing experience than I have, and I do agree they don't put up much of a fight except for the cases I mentioned with 7 1/2 STEEL. 

Trooper makes a point I hadn't considered about 7 1/2 shot not making it to the breasts on going away shots. I guess there is a trade off: shoot 7 1/2 and have little or no meat damaged on going away shots and lots of lost meat on side and front shots, or shoot fewer larger pellets and get some level of meat damage on all shots. Have you guys had equally good luck with 7 1/2 shot on ruffed and blue grouse?


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## COWAN (Oct 7, 2012)

I can't believe folks would hunt grouse with a 12 gauge. My opinion is that it's just too much gun, but if that's what ya got then you have to use what you have. I bought a .410 just to hunt grouse with, and it is a ton of fun. I also have killed grouse dead at 20 yards + with 9 shot. One factor is if your on you're going to kill what you're shoot'n at. If you're not you're wounding or just flat out missing birds. Shot size is important, but shot placement is what is important.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You also have to figure that the vast majority of grouse are ground pounded where just about any shot size will work.


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

I use arrows for grouse


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

Critter said:


> You also have to figure that the vast majority of grouse are ground pounded where just about any shot size will work.


That may be true, but it's not what this discussion is about. I always figure people who ground pound birds (except with arrows- that's more than fair) will eventually grow out of it. It's just killing, and not that much fun. Throw a stick, and the degree of difficulty escalates dramatically.

Just out of curiosity-have any of the biologists around here ever studied why mountain grouse so often fly only a few feet into a tree and eastern/mid-western grouse almost never do that? Is it a predator thing?


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

OK, let me review what we've gone over here...small shot works pretty good but may ruin meat because there'll be more shot in the meat, large shot can tear up the meat to much, steel shot just bounces off, 12g is too much gun, .410's are certified proof of manhood, shootin'em on the ground is just killin and aint that much fun anyway, rocks and sticks work pretty good, arrows are ok even for ground shots and as usual carry a large load of fairness and sportsmanship not available for those people that use guns to kill, the term "pine hen" has completely slipped from our vocabulary leaving exact scientific identification a must in any discussion of grouse hunting and last but not least, it has now been established that dogs can actually become mesmerized by a bottle of water.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Lol BP funniest thing ive heard all day


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> OK, let me review what we've gone over here...small shot works pretty good but may ruin meat because there'll be more shot in the meat, large shot can tear up the meat to much, steel shot just bounces off, 12g is too much gun, .410's are certified proof of manhood, shootin'em on the ground is just killin and aint that much fun anyway, rocks and sticks work pretty good, arrows are ok even for ground shots and as usual carry a large load of fairness and sportsmanship not available for those people that use guns to kill, the term "pine hen" has completely slipped from our vocabulary leaving exact scientific identification a must in any discussion of grouse hunting and last but not least, it has now been established that dogs can actually become mesmerized by a bottle of water.


Love this!

Still call'm pine chickens down this a way☺


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

I shoot 6's at everything... pheasant, chukar, quail, turkey, etc, etc..

Bigger shot, 4's 5's = crappy patterns and more cripples. (Pattern yer gun you'll see what I mean.)

Smaller shot = better patterns, no down range energy. Worthless past 35 yards.

6 Shot = perfect patterns, plenty of energy, kills everything like a wedge.


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

Well,
In Alaska, the natives call spruce grouse "Hooters".


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## EricH (May 3, 2014)

reb8600 said:


> And what states allow you to use a rifle for Grouse?


Alaska for one. I would bet more birds are shot with .22 than a shotgun up there.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I shoot 6's at everything... pheasant, chukar, quail, turkey, etc, etc..
> 
> Bigger shot, 4's 5's = crappy patterns and more cripples. (Pattern yer gun you'll see what I mean.)
> 
> ...


Patterns with 4's and 5's: This could be more so the case with smaller bores, and tighter chokes. But with the right barrel lengths, choke work, and shot columns, even a .410 can pattern decently with #4. Though I typically load my .410 rounds with 6s and only use 2.5" shells. Shot cups, or the lack there of can make a big difference in anything 28 guage and smaller.

Do you mean less dense patterns? Because that is a given, you have less shot. If you are seeing clumps, or big open spaces, etc. that is not because of shot size, but because of the combination of barrel/choke/shell.


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## COWAN (Oct 7, 2012)

A .410 as certified proof of manhood? I don't know about that. I use one because of the challenge and it's a ton of fun. #6 shot is also my favorite shot size, I never did like #4 or #5 shot.


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## kstorrs (Oct 29, 2012)

The proc says you can use 2-8 shotshells in handguns but I cannot find anything larger than 12 shot (other than .410 shells). Is there such a thing?


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

kstorrs said:


> The proc says you can use 2-8 shotshells in handguns but I cannot find anything larger than 12 shot (other than .410 shells). Is there such a thing?


it also has to have at least 1/2 oz of shot


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## muzzdog (May 22, 2012)

Critter I hope the grouse was not in the tree when you shot it with a 7mm.but what I was wondering is did you even find a feather


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

muzzdog said:


> Critter I hope the grouse was not in the tree when you shot it with a 7mm.but what I was wondering is did you even find a feather


The "art" of taking grouse with your deers rifle involves the clean removal of the birds head. Any shot to the body is considered amateurish and is surely nothing to brad about around camp.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Patterns with 4's and 5's: This could be more so the case with smaller bores, and tighter chokes. But with the right barrel lengths, choke work, and shot columns, even a .410 can pattern decently with #4. Though I typically load my .410 rounds with 6s and only use 2.5" shells. Shot cups, or the lack there of can make a big difference in anything 28 guage and smaller.
> 
> Do you mean less dense patterns? Because that is a given, you have less shot. If you are seeing clumps, or big open spaces, etc. that is not because of shot size, but because of the combination of barrel/choke/shell.


Everything you say is spot on. I shoot a 20 ga most of the time and usually have the skeet or the IC choke screwed in. No matter the ga or the gun I've never been able to get 4's to pattern worth a crap past 40 yards. 5's are a little better but still not what I would cal a "pretty" pattern... 6's just shoot nice no matter what gun I grab and no matter the choke. Plus they kill. Small enough for good pattern density and uniformity, but still big enough to pack a punch down range and knock a rooster on his butt. But hey. if you get 4's and 5's to pattern well and put em where they need to be they work just as good. ;-)


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

As a kid, I remember my grandfathers and great uncles taking a LOT of birds of all kinds; ducks, geese, pheasants, chukars, swans, huns, grouse, you name it, with #6 lead shot. It was all they used. 12 gauge guns for waterfowl, 20 gauge for upland. Everything that was hunted was shot with #6 lead. Personally, I think using #4 for grouse is a gross mismatch. larger shot patterns well if you have a large pay load. But who loads 1 3/8 to 1 1/2 oz of anything for grouse? Sub-gauge guns (i.e., 20 and 28 gauge guns with #6 and #7.5) are all you really need to kill grouse. If you do shoot a 12 gauge, the one ounce economy loads of #6 and #7.5 are perfect.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

00 buck has always worked well for me, and you don't have to worry about cleaning birds.


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

Bret said:


> I like 1 1/8 oz of 6's because you don't blow up Ruffed Grouse, but it is heavy enough to bring down blues. Birds in good range anyway.


Do you load your own? I can't find 1 1/8 oz. #6 shot at stores, at least not in 12 ga. It seems to me to be such a generic load that I am surprised it's not more common in the stores.


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