# The trigger has been pulled.....on to accessories!



## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

It has been done! I have finally purchased my rifle to help facilitate my intro to long range shooting with accuracy! I bought a Remington 700 SPS Varmint. .308 win. I have ordered a Weaver 20MOA base with Weaver four hole tactical rings, .308 win. die set, and a 100 round shell holder to get me to $100 (so I could get the $20 amazon credit incentive they had going.)

So now a scope? Curious what all you rifle wielders advice's are regarding MOA vs MRAD, First focal plane vs Second focal plane, Reticle choice etc... I know it is preference but I cant make a decision on that, as of yet, I have none! 

My ultimate goal is sorta a floater in that I want to be able to hit a target at 1000 yards not by accident. Then keep climbing from there to as far as I can get. Thanks in advance A bit later I will post up for some info on a good starting point for a load.

Cheddar


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

What is your scope budget? Hunting vs range, or multi use? 

Here is a good first read on FFP vs SFP.

FFP with MRAD is a mean setup! But I lean towards MOA with custom turrets. Easier for me to use in practical situations.


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## jshuag (Jan 16, 2014)

I have an FFP with MRAD. Its awesome. 

Here is my scope:
$699.95...SWFA SS 3-15x42 Tactical Rifle Scope
$15.95.....Bulter Creek Caps	
$19.95.....Sunshade	
$29.95.....Mil Dot Master

...........Total...$791.49


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Not too much unfortunately...about $400. Heavily considering the SWFA SS 10x42 ($299)

Cheddar


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I've enjoyed my Vortex HS LR 4-16x44. It has the BDC reticle, but I don't use that much anymore. Now that I've chrono'd a load, I've made a drop chart that seems to be on pretty well.

Check out cameraland.com They have demo versions of their scopes for a great price. I got my scope for around $475 from them. Any other store would have been $100 more. That's my vote!

Edit: Just took a look at their website and this deal was advertised:http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/vortex.pl?page=vortexviper6-20x44


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks. It seems that a FFP vs SFP is indifferent if you are using a fixed power scope? Am I wrong?

Cheddar


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> Thanks. It seems that a FFP vs SFP is indifferent if you are using a fixed power scope? Am I wrong?
> 
> Cheddar


Correct. FFP makes it so the values of the graduations in the reticle are the same no matter which magnification your variable is set at. It is great if you use hold offs rather than dialing elevation or windage.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Cooky said:


> Correct. FFP makes it so the values of the graduations in the reticle are the same no matter which magnification your variable is set at. It is great if you use hold offs rather than dialing elevation or windage.


Thanks, I had no idea.

.


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

Cooky said:


> Correct. FFP makes it so the values of the graduations in the reticle are the same no matter which magnification your variable is set at. It is great if you use hold offs rather than dialing elevation or windage.


I've always wondered if that was a problem traditionally in other scopes with incremental crosshairs. I kind of figured that it magnified with the view up until the lowest crosshair was at the bottom of the sight picture. However, it sounds like that isn't typically the case.


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## JoeRandall (Jun 24, 2012)

For your budget I would get the SWFA 10x MRAD reticle with MRAD turrets but the side focus model for another $100. If not a fixed power get a FFP! I picked up my weaver tactical used for $500. If you can wait and watch you might find a deal. For long range shooting a chrono only gets you a starting base. You need to true your dope, and your dope changes for anything mother nature can throw at you (can explain more if wanted). You will be able to hit 1000 yards after some shots with no problems. Its hitting it the first shot that takes a lot of time and practice.

MRAD vs MOA is a preference. As long as the reticle and turrets match you'll be fine. If they don't you have to do the math when needed. If you have someone you plan on shooting with I would get what they have. Its easier to make calls for each other.

On a side note, My friend and I are looking at putting a long range basics shooting course together. Just for research would this be something you would be interested in if it was available?

FFP vs. SFP:


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

JoeRandall said:


> For your budget I would get the SWFA 10x MRAD reticle with MRAD turrets but the side focus model for another $100. If not a fixed power get a FFP! I picked up my weaver tactical used for $500. If you can wait and watch you might find a deal. For long range shooting a chrono only gets you a starting base. You need to true your dope, and your dope changes for anything mother nature can throw at you (can explain more if wanted). You will be able to hit 1000 yards after some shots with no problems. Its hitting it the first shot that takes a lot of time and practice.
> 
> MRAD vs MOA is a preference. As long as the reticle and turrets match you'll be fine. If they don't you have to do the math when needed. If you have someone you plan on shooting with I would get what they have. Its easier to make calls for each other.
> 
> On a side note, My friend and I are looking at putting a long range basics shooting course together. Just for research would this be something you would be interested in if it was available?


Joe,

Yes please explain all that you can, and yes I would be interested in a class if available though for me I would prefer it to contain a hands on in the feild portion. I have a friend who has been into reloading and long distance shooting for awhile who is sorta coaching me along as well. He has few rifles but one is pretty much the same as mine (700 ADL Varmint). With any new endeavor I tend to really get into it pretty deep and learn all I can so feel free to make any suggestions criticism etc.

Cheddar


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Id suggest saving a bit longer for a scope.

They say "buy a rifle you can afford, and a scope you cant"


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

As the author of a very popular (free) ballistics software, I hands down prefer MOA over MILs. MOA is very easy to work with. I know military people who use mil's alot enjoy it but I find MOA much easier to understand and quicker to work with. 

For your planned shooting, at 1k yards... either will work, what you will want though is as fine of click adjustments as you can get and magnification, which in turn implies a larger objective lens. Visit some bench rest shooters forums and see what they recommend. But as Bax said, its going to be pricey.

-DallanC


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

DallanC said:


> As the author of a very popular (free) ballistics software, I hands down prefer MOA over MILs. MOA is very easy to work with. I know military people who use mil's alot enjoy it but I find MOA much easier to understand and quicker to work with.
> 
> For your planned shooting, at 1k yards... either will work, what you will want though is as fine of click adjustments as you can get and magnification, which in turn implies a larger objective lens. Visit some bench rest shooters forums and see what they recommend. But as Bax said, its going to be pricey.
> 
> -DallanC


What is the name of your software? What is it that makes MOA easier to work with in your opinion Dallan? I am wanting to sight my setup in the week of Thanksgiving so I want to order a scope ASAP so it will be ready.

Cheddar


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

http://huntingnut.com/index.php?name=PointBlank

The software is completely free. For a detailed article on MOA vs MIL you can read this:

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/07/20/mil-vs-moa-an-objective-comparison/

Both work, I prefer MOA as in my mind its simplier.

-DallanC


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## Shunter (Jul 23, 2014)

For 1000+ yards I'd recommend at least a 20x scope. I have the vortex viper and love it. I have the BDC reticle and like it but MOA would be more useful if you take the time to figure them out though.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You can also get some custom turrets made once you get your loads nailed down.

http://kentonindustries.com/custom-turrets/leupold

I need to get some made up for my STW.

-DallanC


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## JoeRandall (Jun 24, 2012)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> Joe,
> 
> Yes please explain all that you can, and yes I would be interested in a class if available though for me I would prefer it to contain a hands on in the feild portion. I have a friend who has been into reloading and long distance shooting for awhile who is sorta coaching me along as well. He has few rifles but one is pretty much the same as mine (700 ADL Varmint). With any new endeavor I tend to really get into it pretty deep and learn all I can so feel free to make any suggestions criticism etc.
> 
> Cheddar


For a beginner the main thing you need to worry about with mother nature is density altitude. It is the air density given as a height above sea level. The actual elevation may be 5000 but you could be shooting in 3000-8000 (or more). You can use electronics to read this or use charts. Just an example: my rifle last weekend we were shooting at 5425 DA for 1000 yards I had to dope 10.7 Mils. Lets say shooting the same spot the next day and it is 20 degrees warmer so 6425 DA now my dope is 10.4 Thats a difference of 10.8 inches at 1000 yards.

Now once you get the basics of that down you have wind and the coriolis effect.

Do you have a Iphone or Ipod touch? I run Ballistic AE on them and it is very user friendly once you figure out some of the meanings and how to use it. I havent seen it for android but there is applied ballistics for the written by bryan litz. Something like this is the easiest way for a new shooter to be somewhat consistent. After you make most your hits with the app then you can start getting into the actual math if you want. Get on paper or steel first to have some fun then get serious about it.

Im also shooting a .308 Remington 700

The class we are looking at doing would have a classroom potion but then put to the test everything you learned on a range out to 1000



Shunter said:


> For 1000+ yards I'd recommend at least a 20x scope. I have the vortex viper and love it. I have the BDC reticle and like it but MOA would be more useful if you take the time to figure them out though.


Yes and no. More is always better than not enough since you can back out. But the farther you shoot and the more you zoom in the harder it is to use your reticle. Your lines and target are not as sharp and your mil-dot may cover your hole target. Last weekend we shot out to 1240 yards it was easier to focus and see clearly at 10-12 power.

With his budget on a scope if he can not wait till he has more money it is the better option. Go with a cheap scope and you click values may be off. (This is also something you need to test)


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## JoeRandall (Jun 24, 2012)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> What is the name of your software? What is it that makes MOA easier to work with in your opinion Dallan? I am wanting to sight my setup in the week of Thanksgiving so I want to order a scope ASAP so it will be ready.
> 
> Cheddar


The only time I see MOA easier to work with is when shooting 100 yards. 1 MOA roughly equals 1 in at 100 yards. When else is it easier? Im not asking to argue I would really like to see another benefit other than a being able to adjust your scope at 1000 2.6 in vs 3.6. The Mil is just as hard as MOA when shooting in the english system other than range estimation. (x100 vs x27.78 ) im lazy im using a calculator. At least Mil is relevant to the metric system and equals 1 yard at 1000 yards. If you can shoot a group at 1000 yards and needed that 1 in to be centered on your target you're a better shooter than I. I am not including benchrest shooters in this opinion thats another breed. From the sounds of the OP hes going to go out in the desert and lay prone for the first time. To shoot that 1in difference at 1000 yards he needs a lot better scope than he can afford. (I think the new world record was shot this year at around 2.6 inches at 1000 yards)


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## HeberHunter (Nov 13, 2014)

If I were you I'd put my money towards the Vortex Viper 6.5-20X50 with the BDC reticle. It makes it easy to adjust for wind and has plenty of elevation adjustment. The scope sells for $459.99 everywhere I have seen it. I bought mine at Al's Sporting Goods in Logan for $379.99. Seems like they have the best prices for Vortex optics in the state. Vortex also has an amazing warranty. I lost my lens covers for my binos while out hunting and emailed them and their reply was that they were already in the mail. I got them 2 days later. No questions asked and didn't ask for a cent. Honestly, I don't think they ever even verified I actually owned the binos in question. So, if you are ever worried about warranty they are the top in their class. I will definitely let you know the glass is not nearly as sharp as the higher dollar scopes. My brother has a Huskemaw and a Nightforce and they are definitely better. But, those are both $1,500+ scopes. For entry level I don't think you can beat the Viper. That is just my two cents. I have even used their Ballistic Software on their site for my 7mm Mag and it was dead on for my reloads. It is free also.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

HeberHunter said:


> If I were you I'd put my money towards the Vortex Viper 6.5-20X50 with the BDC reticle. It makes it easy to adjust for wind and has plenty of elevation adjustment. The scope sells for $459.99 everywhere I have seen it. I bought mine at Al's Sporting Goods in Logan for $379.99. Seems like they have the best prices for Vortex optics in the state. Vortex also has an amazing warranty. I lost my lens covers for my binos while out hunting and emailed them and their reply was that they were already in the mail. I got them 2 days later. No questions asked and didn't ask for a cent. Honestly, I don't think they ever even verified I actually owned the binos in question. So, if you are ever worried about warranty they are the top in their class. I will definitely let you know the glass is not nearly as sharp as the higher dollar scopes. My brother has a Huskemaw and a Nightforce and they are definitely better. But, those are both $1,500+ scopes. For entry level I don't think you can beat the Viper. That is just my two cents. I have even used their Ballistic Software on their site for my 7mm Mag and it was dead on for my reloads. It is free also.


Not quite the scope you mentioned - this is the 44mm model, but I may purchase this one for my build. Seriously, the vortex are hard to beat for the money. The warranty is what keeps me coming back - I've never had to use it, but I know I'd have no issues at all.

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/vortex.pl?page=vortexviper6-20x44

$325 is a steal!


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## JoeRandall (Jun 24, 2012)

Problem with a bdc for what the op is wanting to do witch is shoot long range is your bdc is only good for what you sight it in at and where the marks go for that yardage. For strictly a hunting gun its great. But say I want to shoot dead on at 500 then 1000 then 1300 most .308's don't have enough elevation adjustment in the scope to dope that far. even with a 20 moa base. So you need to use your mil holds.

The vortex posted above is nice except your reticle and turrets do not match.

Again I do not believe the only thing the OP wants to do with this gun is hunt. You can take any gun and hit 1000 with enough ammo to walk it in. Its about learning to do it in one shot.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

JoeRandall said:


> Problem with a bdc for what the op is wanting to do witch is shoot long range is your bdc is only good for what you sight it in at and where the marks go for that yardage. For strictly a hunting gun its great. But say I want to shoot dead on at 500 then 1000 then 1300 most .308's don't have enough elevation adjustment in the scope to dope that far. even with a 20 moa base. So you need to use your mil holds.
> 
> The vortex posted above is nice except your reticle and turrets do not match.
> 
> Again I do not believe the only thing the OP wants to do with this gun is hunt. You can take any gun and hit 1000 with enough ammo to walk it in. Its about learning to do it in one shot.


I have the vortex BDC and never use it that much- I definitely understand the limits of the reticle itself. As you know, it follows a general ballistics curve and isn't exact yardages. Just trying to give options for a budget of $400 and the power range he was looking for.

Honestly, I'd wait a bit and see what black friday deals might be out there. The ads should be out real soon - you may be able to get a slightly better scope with the budget that's been set aside.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I shoot the Vortex BDC on my hunting 7mm RM, but it spends lots of time at the range. The 44mm has enough elevation adjustments for 1000. You can also use the BDC efficiently. Using my software I manipulate the magnification to adjust the hash marks to be certain yardage. Accuracy is impressive. You can get creative with it, and its hard to beat in your price range.

With a 20moa base you should be fine.

Also, I highly recommend all Vortex optics. Solid!


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

That is a pretty good article on MOA vs MRAD Dallan. I am even more perplexed now however as the one and only person I know to go shoot long distance with uses MRAD but I would be much more at home with MOA. :-? The math doesnt bother me so much as I do basic algebraic equations regularly with my job.
It seems that the Vortex line is quite favorable with quite a few fellas on here. I suspect that is largely due to the class A warranty. Grrrrrrr....so many choices. Thats it! Im getting the Schmidt&Bender!! Oh dang it, I forgot my budget was around $400 not $4000. Stinkin money thing always making things so difficult. Perhaps this deserves a bit more thought.

Cheddar


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

JoeRandall said:


> . You can take any gun and hit 1000 with enough ammo to walk it in. Its about learning to do it in one shot.


I like this. This is really is my goal at the end of it all. I want to call shots, have confidence be able to repeat the previous action. I have to live by my own words. As I teach my boys I tell them "any fool can pull a trigger" "you want to learn how to shoot a rifle" A little corny perhaps but its how I feel.

Cheddar


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

So I ordered my scope today. Decided on the SWFA SS 10x42 MRAD with Milquad reticle.


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## JoeRandall (Jun 24, 2012)

Ok. Keep updates!


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

My scope arrived yesterday. Time to mount it up!


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