# What Would You Use?



## King_B (Feb 25, 2011)

Let's say it's September, you're 200 yards away from the bull of a lifetime and getting closer is not happening. No wind, broadside shot. It's muzzleloader season, and you've got the permit in your pocket. Shooting a .50 cal rifle with 1:28 twist.

Now rewind 4 months to June. You're getting ready for the possibility of the above scenario. What bullet do you choose to get ready with?


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

What caliber rifle are you using? Are we talking .25-06, .300 Win Mag, .338 ???


----------



## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

King_B said:


> Let's say it's September, you're 200 yards away from the bull of a lifetime and getting closer is not happening. No wind, broadside shot. It's *muzzleloader season*, and you've got the permit in your pocket.
> 
> Now rewind 4 months to June. You're getting ready for the possibility of the above scenario. What bullet do you choose to get ready with?





LostLouisianian said:


> What caliber rifle are you using? Are we talking .25-06, .300 Win Mag, .338 ???


It's muzzleloader season.

What caliber? What's the rifling twist of your muzzleloader?

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

At 200 yards with a ML I would pass, but then I use a .54 caliber T/C Renegade with open sights shooting a maxi ball. I would have to get that range down to 150 yards to even think of it.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Fishrmn said:


> It's muzzleloader season.
> 
> What caliber? What's the rifling twist of your muzzleloader?
> 
> ⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


Me thinks I gotta get some new glasses this weekend....LOL I can't read anymore.


----------



## King_B (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry, .50 cal muzzleloader. 1:28 twist.


----------



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

If getting within an "ethical" range is not possible, then neither is taking that bull.

:behindsofa:


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

If you have to shoot that far, use the bullet that is most accurate out of your gun. Things have slowed down enough to where bullet construction won't matter much. My load drops over 10" and is just over 1000fps with roughly 1000 ftlbs of energy at 200 yards. I consider this max for deer and marginal for elk. 50 yards closer really changes the equation. Accuracy wise I could hit the vitals of an elk every time at 200 yards, but I'm not sure I would take the shot.--------SS


----------



## King_B (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks for a reasonable response Springville. I won't be seeking a 200 yard shot, but wanted some opinions just like yours if the scenario were to play out.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

King_B said:


> Let's say it's September, you're x# yards away from the bull of a lifetime and getting closer is not happening. No wind, broadside shot. ...


muzzleloader, archery, rifle.....none of that makes any difference. If you are questioning the range, then it's too far.

Shooting at an animal that is at or near the maximum range of your weapon presents a significant chance of wounding that "bull of a lifetime". So, what happens if you wound it and cannot recover it? Now you've really screwed up that bull of a lifetime.

If conditions are not right, including range, DON'T SHOOT.

I recently had my 10 year old daughter take the hunter education online course. While going through the pages of information I kept thinking to myself: All hunters should review this info periodically. Why not have a 5 year hunter ed renewal?

this thread again made me think about hunters education. Shoot / don't shoot. Maybe we all need a refresher course?


----------



## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

King B,
You should try several bullets out to the ranges you feel comfortable with. If it's 200 then it's 200 if it's 300 it's 300, if it's 50 it's 50. If seen the power belts shoot very very well out to 300 yards. Holding a 4 inch group. I've seen this out of a couple different muzzleloaders. I think the Powerbelts are a good place to start. Now just go shoot and find your comfort zone.


----------



## King_B (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks everyone! I'll take into account what you've said. While we're at it, now that this thread has turned into Ethical Shooting 101, what's your comfortable distance for a muzzleloader elk shot?


----------



## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

King_B said:


> Thanks everyone! I'll take into account what you've said. While we're at it, now that this thread has turned into Ethical Shooting 101, what's your comfortable distance for a muzzleloader elk shot?


Without getting too righteous....its hunting not shooting for me, so 100yrds or closer is what I target. Normally bow hunt, so 100 yards is a luxury, since I try to get under 50 yards with my bow.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

My limit on elk would be 150 because of ballistic limitations. Nice thing is that I can shoot very well at that range so it should be a done deal. By my standards, there are simply no legal muzzy loads capable of generating the ballistics needed to reliably kill elk at 300 yards. Maybe that's why they have a special season?------SS


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> By my standards, there are simply no legal muzzy loads capable of generating the ballistics needed to reliably kill elk at 300 yards. Maybe that's why they have a special season?------SS


This is an interesting comment. I get it that you wouldn't take a shot over the 150 yards you stated. I probably wouldn't either. But to say there isn't a legal muzzy load capable of reliability for elk at 300 yards? I think these new long range muzzy manufacturers may disagree. I think my eyes and own limitations are a far bigger limiting factor for going over 150 yards than the ballistics.

I'd like to hear more about this, por favor. You know more about this than I probably ever will. So edumacate a brotha.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

My elk load is a 300grn XTP over 120grns Pyrodex RS. While I am sighted in for a 125 yard zero, a 200 yard shot on a elk would result in one dead elk. I know my drop to that range extremely well and that bullet preforms fantastically on them.


-DallanC


----------



## horn hunter (Oct 30, 2013)

I killed my LE bull at 245 yards using the Barnes TEZ 295 gr bullets. I'm not really a fan of Barnes, but it work and the bull died in seconds. I now shot the hornady ssts, 250 gr. those things shoot awesome out of my gun


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

TS30 said:


> This is an interesting comment. I get it that you wouldn't take a shot over the 150 yards you stated. I probably wouldn't either. But to say there isn't a legal muzzy load capable of reliability for elk at 300 yards? I think these new long range muzzy manufacturers may disagree. I think my eyes and own limitations are a far bigger limiting factor for going over 150 yards than the ballistics.
> 
> I'd like to hear more about this, por favor. You know more about this than I probably ever will. So edumacate a brotha.


I'd be glad to explain how I came to this conclusion. It started when I got my load and rifle shooting so well that I started shooting my 18" steel gong at 300 yards. I noticed that the strikes were not very impressive and that the bullets actually ricocheted off the steel instead of splattering. I ran the ballistics on my load and was surprised to find that my load which consists of a 250 Hornady SST leaving the barrel at a chronographed 2100 fps drops 40 inches and retains only 750 ftlbs of energy. This is very similar to the energy retained by a 223 shooting 55 grain bullets at the same range. So, how would you feel about shooting an elk with a 223 at 300 yards? Granted the 45 cal muzzy bullet would make a larger wound channel, but I would seriously question the likelihood that a bullet will expand when hitting an animal at 1100 fps or less. I also consider my load to be among the top performers in the muzzleloading world combining high velocity with a good BC for a muzzy bullet.

At the end of the day it is entirely possible that you could cleanly kill an elk at 300 yards with a well placed shot. My experience would lead me to consider a shot such as this to be risky at best so I personally won't be taking 300 yard shots at big game unless I can figure out a way to substantially improve down range ballistic performance. ---------SS


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I shoot the 250 gr. sst for deer and would use the same for elk. My max distance is 180 yards.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

SS- good info, thanks! I wonder how that changes with a .50 cal and a heavier bullet? 

Under hunting conditions with a 1x scope or open sights I don't think I would be able to even see well enough to accurately shoot at 200 yards, let alone 300. So the ballistic limitations are probably a moot point for me.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I haven't run all the numbers, but my load is a 50 cal saboted down to 45. That's the only way to achieve the velocity. I doubt that you would be able to improve the ballistics by going to bigger bullets because you lose out in velocity and possibly coefficient depending on bullet design. I could be wrong and if anyone discovers a safe, legal load that will accurately deliver 1500 ftlbs of energy at 300 yards please PM me. I'm also not trying to dissuade anyone from taking longer shots, just explaining why I won't.

Also, there are legal sights out there that make aiming at 300 yards doable and 200 a piece of cake. Look for high end peep sights or prism type sights with aiming points less than 2 MOA. Milk jugs at 200 are easy and I can hit an 18" steel plate at 300 yards 3 out of 4 shots average. I think that the practice is worth it because it's fun and I can make surgical accurate shots within my hunting range.....like eyeball within 100 yards.------SS


----------



## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

200 yards I would use a 250gr SST over 110gr of BH which would easily put that bullet right where I wanted it and I'd have a freezer full of meat. 300 yards is another story, I doubt I would attempt a 300 yards shot. Just cant reliably see the target at that range.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I've been in that situation before. 268 yds. away and open grass between me, and the Bull. I took the shot, and the Bull sat on his ass like a dog. Stood back up, and began to stager. I had another load in the rifle, and was going to blast him again. No back-up shot was needed. He fell over and rolled to the bottom of the hill. 

.50 cal. 1-28 twist, 120 gr. loose pyro. fff 300 gr. XTP


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Springville Shooter said:


> By my standards, there are simply no legal muzzy loads capable of generating the ballistics needed to reliably kill elk at 300 yards.


http://www.gunwerks.com/Shooting-Systems/muzzleLoader

Not sure the ballistics on it, but its a shooter.


----------



## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

On the any weapon hunt you can use your -06s and .270s. Wouldn't that make you guys happier?


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

redleg said:


> On the any weapon hunt you can use your -06s and .270s. Wouldn't that make you guys happier?


Why? Bow's are now pushing 100 yard shots, rifles out to 1000. /shrug

-DallanC


----------



## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

I was actually in that very situation 4 years ago on the LE bull muzzleloader hunt, except I had two bulls instead of one. Midway through the season, I called in two nice bulls to within 200 yards (one to the east and one to the west). As much as I begged and pleaded, they wouldn't come any closer. I'm pretty strict on my self-imposed shooting standards. I won't take a shot unless I can consistently get sub-MOA accuracy at that distance. At the time, I had a CVA that would only shoot sub-MOA at 100 yards (which isn't bad with a 1X scope), but beyond that, my groups opened considerably. I watched them both walk away as the light was quickly fading. I ended up with tag soup that year and I don't regret my decision for one minute. I've since learned a lot about getting closer to elk and also about shooting muzzleloaders accurately. In fact, I still wouldn't take a 200 yard shot with a muzzleloader (at least with a 1X scope on it).


----------



## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Springville Shooter said:


> I'd be glad to explain how I came to this conclusion. It started when I got my load and rifle shooting so well that I started shooting my 18" steel gong at 300 yards. I noticed that the strikes were not very impressive and that the bullets actually ricocheted off the steel instead of splattering. I ran the ballistics on my load and was surprised to find that my load which consists of a 250 Hornady SST leaving the barrel at a chronographed 2100 fps drops 40 inches and retains only 750 ftlbs of energy. This is very similar to the energy retained by a 223 shooting 55 grain bullets at the same range. So, how would you feel about shooting an elk with a 223 at 300 yards? Granted the 45 cal muzzy bullet would make a larger wound channel, but I would seriously question the likelihood that a bullet will expand when hitting an animal at 1100 fps or less. I also consider my load to be among the top performers in the muzzleloading world combining high velocity with a good BC for a muzzy bullet.
> 
> At the end of the day it is entirely possible that you could cleanly kill an elk at 300 yards with a well placed shot. My experience would lead me to consider a shot such as this to be risky at best so I personally won't be taking 300 yard shots at big game unless I can figure out a way to substantially improve down range ballistic performance. ---------SS


SS,
Will you answer a couple questions to help some of the newbies understand?
First, where do you sight in at 100 yards?
How far has it dropped at 200, 250 and how high do you hold to hit an 18" gong at 300?
Most guys don't understand how steep that curve gets out there around the 250 to 300 yard range. It sounds like you can illustrate with personal experience. 
I don't dare shoot much past 125-150, my two pellet load drops a long ways from 125 to 200 yards.
Thanks


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I sight my load in to be dead on at 25 yards. I like sighting in close with open sights because I am able to focus on and see the target better. This puts me 1/2 inch high at 100 yards, 10 inches low at 200, 22 inches low at 250, and 40 inches low at 300. I use an adjustable sight to compensate for drop and use a 6 O'clock hold so that the sights don't cover the target. I hope it is evident why I consider shots past 200 or so very risky on game. Notice that the drop is doubling every 50 yards past 200 with a very high performance modern muzzy load. Because I have a sickness and shoot a bunch, I have figured out how to be pretty consistent at 300 yards.....for fun. For hunting, I want the odds hedged a little more in my favor. I LOVE the variables of the hunt.......I detest variables in the shot.--------SS


----------



## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Springville Shooter said:


> I sight my load in to be dead on at 25 yards. I like sighting in close with open sights because I am able to focus on and see the target better. This puts me 1/2 inch high at 100 yards, 10 inches low at 200, 22 inches low at 250, and 40 inches low at 300. I use an adjustable sight to compensate for drop and use a 6 O'clock hold so that the sights don't cover the target. I hope it is evident why I consider shots past 200 or so very risky on game. Notice that the drop is doubling every 50 yards past 200 with a very high performance modern muzzy load. Because I have a sickness and shoot a bunch, I have figured out how to be pretty consistent at 300 yards.....for fun. For hunting, I want the odds hedged a little more in my favor. I LOVE the variables of the hunt.......I detest variables in the shot.--------SS


Well written!


----------



## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

Remington has allegedly began producing a 300 yard muzzle loader that looks like a model 700. I haven't looked into it, and it could very well go against what ever laws are in place during the Utah Muzzle loader. But still...


----------



## kstorrs (Oct 29, 2012)

fishreaper said:


> Remington has allegedly began producing a 300 yard muzzle loader that looks like a model 700. I haven't looked into it, and it could very well go against what ever laws are in place during the Utah Muzzle loader. But still...


Is this the one you're talking about? http://www.remington.com/pages/news...troduces Model 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader.aspx


----------



## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

Looks like it. I wouldn't mess with a 200 grain charge though, personally


----------



## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

Looks like it. I wouldn't mess with a 200 grain charge though, personally


----------

