# United???



## Fly22

Is there a ML group here in UT?

If there isnt' we need to start one. I think if the proposed hunt dates are accepted by the DWR we will be getting the hose job on general season deer hunting.

We need a voice.


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## lunkerhunter2

Without opening up the links, how are we getting screwed?


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## DallanC

lunkerhunter2 said:


> Without opening up the links, how are we getting screwed?


DWR is proposing breaking the general rifle deer hunt into 2 different hunts... the General Muzzleloader deer hunt will be AFTER the first general deer season rifle hunt, and before the 2nd gen season rifle hunt. Chasing deer with a smokepole after rifle hunters have been shooting at them for a week sounds fun right?

Now if they put the smokepoke's after the rifle hunt at the end of oct it would be a different deal... but mid Oct after the rifle hunters, nope its a royal screw job.

-DallanC


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## Nor-tah

WOw what a joke!!!!!!! I know DNR guys watch this site. If they would please man up and let us know the reasoning behind this???!!! Such a joke... Me and my family of ML hunter would join a group. Let us know... :evil:


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## lunkerhunter2

DallanC said:


> lunkerhunter2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without opening up the links, how are we getting screwed?
> 
> 
> 
> DWR is proposing breaking the general rifle deer hunt into 2 different hunts... the General Muzzleloader deer hunt will be AFTER the first general deer season rifle hunt, and before the 2nd gen season rifle hunt. Chasing deer with a smokepole after rifle hunters have been shooting at them for a week sounds fun right?
> 
> Now if they put the smokepoke's after the rifle hunt at the end of oct it would be a different deal... but mid Oct after the rifle hunters, nope its a royal screw job.
> 
> -DallanC
Click to expand...

Yeah, that does suck! I guess i will have to read more into it.


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## Nor-tah

DallanC said:


> lunkerhunter2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without opening up the links, how are we getting screwed?
> 
> 
> 
> DWR is proposing breaking the general rifle deer hunt into 2 different hunts... the General Muzzleloader deer hunt will be AFTER the first general deer season rifle hunt, and before the 2nd gen season rifle hunt. Chasing deer with a smokepole after rifle hunters have been shooting at them for a week sounds fun right?
> 
> Now if they put the smokepoke's after the rifle hunt at the end of oct it would be a different deal... but mid Oct after the rifle hunters, nope its a royal screw job.
> 
> -DallanC
Click to expand...

Where can we read?


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## lunkerhunter2

http://bowhuntersofutah.net/index.php/f ... posal.html


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## sagebrush

one way to hunt early with the muzz is to go on the early rifle hunt., but of course this is a draw, and most likley pick your region.


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## sharpshooter25

I wouldn't have a problem with going after the rifle hunters either. I mean, when I first started to muzzleload it was after, but it was also during the time of the rut which is what got me interested in it in the first place. I wish they would go back to that. Why did they change that date anyway? If we started a group, and the DWR made that change to split up the rifle hunt, then I would propose a boycott for just that first year. I mean, imagine how much money they would loose if we didn't hunt for just one year. I know it wouldn't be as much as if the rifle hunters would, but it seems that we just keep getting screwed all the time. They have also proposed to raise our price of a tag $10.00 next year, and not raise everyone else's. If they want more money, then go after the hunt where there are more hunters which is the rifle hunt. There are more archery hunters than muzzleloaders in this state. So why do they always pick on the ones who have the least amount of hunters? Also, Archery has a longer season, and the rifle elk hunt gets 12 days, we get 8? I mean, if you want to preserve your herds, then don't give the rifle hunters 12 days. So anyway, there is my two cents worth. I would be in support of a group.


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## roudy

I think that it is time for all muzzy hunters hit the rac meetings hard and be heard. this is a royal hose job on the muzzy hunters,


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## roudy

I think that it is time for all muzzy hunters hit the rac meetings hard and be heard. this is a royal hose job on the muzzy hunters,


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## Nor-tah

I just got done sending off an email. I studied the two options for the proposal and they are the same for the rifle and muzzleloader hunts. Hosed either way. A link was posted earlier to a different forum. Here is the link from that forum that takes you to the proposal.
http://bowhuntersofutah.net/index.php/articles/downloads/category/5-misc-files.html?download=16:20
PM me if you want some addresses I compiled.

Here is part of what I wrote. Just to help clarify what the dates mean to us.


> I am a bit confused by the proposed dates but from what I gather the GS Muzzleloader season comes RIGHT AFTER the rifle season???? What is the point of that? your own words for MLs is that they are PRIMITIVE weapons. I dont see it being fair to us to let us pick up scraps after the sea of orange scours the mountain all week? Is there a biological reason? I cant see one.
> 
> Here is what I understand. I hope I am mistaken.
> General Season Rifle (Early?) Going October 5th through the 13th. THEN muzzleloader starting the NEXT day and going the 14th-22nd? Then yet another Rifle tag starting the 23rd and running through the end of the month? So are we increasing rifle tags and splitting up the hunt? More revenue in pocket and the deer herd struggles even more? Or are we just splitting up the same number of tags and if so, why the heck would anyone want a "late" rifle tag? There wont be a good deer in sight after the other two hunts. Geez, a big gun hunt lasting almost all of October...
> 
> So are we sticking with 1x scopes and open sites only? How is that fair sandwiched between high power, long range guns, 20x scopes? This just looks like a hose job for all traditional and inline muzzleloader guys. Please clarify!!!!


Please attend these meeting and voice your oppinions on this. Next big game RAC meetings
*November - RAC meetings: Bucks & Bulls Proclamation & Rule; CWMU Approval.

3 - SR - meeting starts at 5:00 pm - Richfield High School - 510 W 100 S 
4 - SER 
5 - NER 
10 - NR (Tuesday) 
12 - CR (Thursday) - Springville Junior High - 165 S. 700 E Springville*


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## roudy

Thank you nortah nice letter and great info on the rac's my two sons and I and any one else that I can drag along will be attending the central region rac in nov. we have got to find out what all this BS on the muzzy hunters is and stop it


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## Nor-tah

Well I waited all week for a response and *did not get one*. Here are the folks I sent the email to.
[email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

These are all the Wildlife board members and RAC guys. I guess they dont care about the concerned hunter. I started the email out, "Gentlemen,
First off I apologize for sending a mass email. The list took me almost an hour to compile and I am sure I left some people off. Please take time to read this and respond. This was meant for everyone of you and I look forward to reading your responses."
I realize some of these people are volunteers but fot the salary people, who are paying these guys?? Oh wait that us! :evil:


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## Fly22

Thanks Nortah, thats a good list. I too will write them this week.


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## kk11

I sent a few letters out, Thanks for the list I will send a letter out to each of these guys. I do not like the new Muz season dates. We need to speak up or we will lose big time, I would rather hunt with a Muzzle loader but I might have to change to Archery.


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## El Matador

Yeah, this is just bad all around for the deer and the muzzy hunters. Deer are more vulnerable to rifles early in the season, and definitely more so in late october when the rut is starting up. The big bucks will get hammered with those season dates, and the muzzleloader hunters will have no reason to even be out. Currently, I have some incentive to pick up my muzz: Better weather early in the season, fewer hunters, and I get a crack at the deer before the rifle season begins. Under this proposal, the only advantage left would be fewer hunters. If they are dead set on having 2 rifle seasons, they need to make the muzz hunt first, or later during the rut. Not sandwiched right there in the middle of craptown.


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## Nor-tah

El Matador said:


> If they are dead set on having 2 rifle seasons, they need to make the muzz hunt first, or later during the rut. Not sandwiched right there in the middle of craptown.


Please come to the RAC and help us communicate this. I'll be at the Central one but cant be to the others. We need at least one muzzy guy at each one. I finally got a reply today. Funny how that happened after my last post on here. -Ov- 
It was from Rick Woodward. He seemed pretty suportive and said to for sure be at the RAC. He did say that with the improvements in the in-lines that muzzleloaders werent that primitive anymore. I agreed but said that rifles have also improved 100 fold and how they are and always have been much more superior ballistically to the in-lines. If they are going to "sandwich" the muzzy hunt why not let us use high power scopes. But I dont want that either. That will basically mean that ALL of October would be a big slaughter fest on our already struggling deer heard. Its just a big mess. We need to go be heard!!!


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## Nor-tah

The DWR just posted this on their site.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/news/09-10/2011_biggame.php


> the changes are big enough that the DWR wants to get the ideas out now so there's plenty of time for you to comment.


I think the division did a god job at giving hunters an option to have less crowding by splitting up the rifle hunt. I just dont know why the hell you would want a late season tag after the deer have been chased for 3 weeks by hunters.

And of course its asinine to put the muzzy right in the middle of the two riffle hunts. Heck, i'll take their left overs in November. Or keep the hunt in September. If it aint broke, dont fix it!!!

PLEASE GET INVOLVED!!!!!


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## lunkerhunter2

I got stopped at a check station and asked a DNR employee about this BS. He could not give me a straight or reasonable answer to any of these questions. All he would say was they are trying to split up the hunters. No reason or answer as to why the $10 increase on muzz only. It appears to me they are trying to get rid of us muzzy hunters but i can't figure out why. I for one will NOT give them an extra $10 and have to pick up leftovers form 10,000 rifle hunters. I will sell my muzz and start rifle hunting again. What a joke this state and its people in power are. _/O _/O


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## Treehugnhuntr

THERE IS NO 10 DOLLAR INCREASE!!

:rotfl:

Main Entry: *sar·casm* 
Pronunciation: \?sär-?ka-z?m\
Function: noun
Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar?s- to cut
Date: 1550
1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm
synonyms see wit

I honestly have a hard time seeing a big enough difference between muzzy and rifle hunts to have a different season. Montana doesn't have a separate season for muzzys.

For those who actually hunt with trad gear, my apologies.


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## Fly22

With that logic they should let us use 30/30's for the ML hunt.

What part of one shot do people not get?


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## Treehugnhuntr

Most of the deer that I have witnessed being killed, which is quite a few, have been one shot kills. I didn't say I thought they were exactly the same, just that in my mind they might not warrant different seasons.

By the way, showing up to the November RAC's won't do much, since it will most likely be addressed next year.

I don't know that I necessarily support having the muzzy hunt between the two either, like some have said, why not the muzzy first, then the two rifle seasons? At first glance, hunting deer for **** near a month on all general units seems like it would have some not so great results.


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## Nor-tah

Well TH I am glad you see a little bit of the problem. I dont think that in lines can be fairly compared to rifles. i have hunted both and know. I would have shot a REALLY big buck on the opener if I had my 270 with me but alas I could only get to within 300 yards of him and was about to be busted by some other bucks. They were in range and I shot one. The same thing has happened to me on Timp. I dont see it so much as a one shot deal as much as a range issue.

And yes it will help to be at RACs, Once next year comes around these guys will have their minds pretty much set. It happened with pick a region. I was there and as valid of arguments as the archers made, it still didnt matter. It was too late. Start now and they will have all winter to think about their bad decisions.

WHERE ARE THE TRADITIONAL GUYS?!?! Do you guys not care about this?


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## Treehugnhuntr

Nor-tah said:


> Well TH I am glad you see a little bit of the problem. I dont think that in lines can be fairly compared to rifles. i have hunted both and know. I would have shot a REALLY big buck on the opener if I had my 270 with me but alas I could only get to within 300 yards of him and was about to be busted by some other bucks. They were in range and I shot one. The same thing has happened to me on Timp. I dont see it so much as a one shot deal as much as a range issue.
> 
> *And yes it will help to be at RACs, Once next year comes around these guys will have their minds pretty much set. * It happened with pick a region. I was there and as valid of arguments as the archers made, it still didnt matter. It was too late. Start now and they will have all winter to think about their bad decisions.
> 
> WHERE ARE THE TRADITIONAL GUYS?!?! Do you guys not care about this?


There is nothing on the docket about the plan, so getting anyone to acknowledge what you are pitching in that regard is going to be difficult to impossible. IMO, you'd be best off to get a bunch of muzzy guys together and form some kind of working group that the DWR acknowledges, but based on results (And they know this) muzzy guys don't have much in the way of representation. My experience is that a good portion of muzzy guys hunt that way because of other issues besides what weapon they are hunting with. This isn't to say that there aren't guys that totally dig everything about muzzy hunting, that would hunt with one regardless of season, but my experience has been to the contrary.

Anis is a good guy guy to start with, he's a muzzy hunter, but on the flip side, don't think he hasn't thought this through with his hunting preference in mind.


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## roudy

this is the reply I got from the emails I sent about the proposed biggame hunt dates

This proposal is meant to reduce crowding and spread the hunts out. The proposal does not deal with buck to doe ratios. We have other mechanisms in place to do that. It really does not make any difference when the muzzleloader hunt starts, unless it is in the rut. Muzzleloader success rate is the same as rifle success rate. The reason we chose to put it between the two rifle hunts is just to split those hunts up. 
Please remember this is just an informational proposal to gather comments like yours. Since there is no biological need to have the hunt when we suggested, public input will likely drive where it ends up.

Thank you for caring enough to comment.


We all need to attend the rac in Nov. and stopp this from happening I feel that it is great for the rifle hunters but the muzzleloaders should go first


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## Nor-tah

roudy said:


> this is the reply I got from the emails I sent about the proposed biggame hunt dates
> 
> This proposal is meant to reduce crowding and spread the hunts out. The proposal does not deal with buck to doe ratios. We have other mechanisms in place to do that. It really does not make any difference when the muzzleloader hunt starts, unless it is in the rut. Muzzleloader success rate is the same as rifle success rate. *The reason we chose to put it between the two rifle hunts is just to split those hunts up.*
> Please remember this is just an informational proposal to gather comments like yours. Since there is no biological need to have the hunt when we suggested, public input will likely drive where it ends up.
> 
> Thank you for caring enough to comment.
> 
> We all need to attend the rac in Nov. and stopp this from happening I feel that it is great for the rifle hunters but the muzzleloaders should go first


This makes no sense. Cant you just not have a hunt there? Ask him why a hunt has to be there to split it up? Leave it open and let the deer settle down. As I have said many times before, who will want a late season tag. Unless it gets really cold that will be a worthless hunt. On cold years the deer will just be starting to rut. Most years it will be bare bones for those guys. *What is wrong with the muzzy hunt in September?*


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## Nor-tah

And thanks for writing Roudy.


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## Nor-tah

Got another reply... hmmmm forum heats up, replies start coming???


> I don't have the answers as to why these changes are being proposed but look forward to the RAC meeting to hear why. As for the muzzle loader hunt, I think the dates of this seem out of whack putting it in between the early and late season deer hunts. I liked it best when the muzzle loader hunt was in November but that's just me. All I know is that our deer herds are really struggling statewide.


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## TopofUtahArcher

I am obviously an archery guy first, but I do hunt with all three weapons. I concur with statements that the archery community got together at the racs and frankly were undermined by some back-door lobbying by a couple specific SF groups...and we got nowhere... but with a renewed voice and some supported efforts from within the WB (Thanks Anis) we've gotten the statewide archery back for now...but don't think the fight is over - SFW and a couple of other special interest groups are working hard and playing really dirty back-room politics to try to make the whole state LE for all species and all hunts! There is a hidden agenda there folks - and I dread them getting their way... but that topic will have several pages of its own before long...

Speaking as one who hunts with a traditional muzzy - when I think of a muzzy hunt it is not an early season (though I would prefer an early velvet hunt than one between two rifle seasons!) but I rather see it as a late season...sometime in November. If memory serves, we used to start muzzy hunting around my b-day at Thanksgiving, but I also remember that the Muzzy hunt took a back seat to Dad's annual ID rifle hunt... I loved late muzzy hunting in the snow!

However, I feel that with the new technologies introduced by modern inlines has taken a lot of the challenge out of the game with 300+ yard accuracy...and I feel the same with ultra long range rifles and to some degree with the current long range shots being taken with bows as well - so I have mixed feelings here - it's about matching wits with your quarry, not killing them at outrageous ranges! Heck, my last 3 bucks were all taken at under 40 yards in terrain ranging from above timberline to high desert with 10 inch tall scrub.
I'd honestly like to see a general muzzle season for any form of muzzleloader before the rifle hunt, with a separate late season hunt for true short-range weapons (cap/flint and bow).

It is hard to have your cake and eat it too... especially when there isn't enough cake to go around as it is. With that said, I would like to see the DWR consider a rule that everyone provide a *MANDATORY* harvest report at the end of every hunt season we participate in. If left incomplete, hunters should be suspended from applying for *ANY hunt for ANY species (including sportsman's, landowner or conservation tags)* till the survey is accurately completed - so that accurate data can be collected regarding harvest rates, wounding rates, etc.

Also, I would like to see them impose a limit on harvests made by a single individual... say one deer every other year or something like in areas with low herd numbers in order allow herds to recover and give others a chance at success, with a waiting period for successful hunters similar to the dedicated hunter program... possibly with an option for service hours being done on behalf of wildlife through the division for them to earn back their application status.

There is no "cure-all" to our problems ... but I am willing to offer suggestions - such as in the N. region, I'd support a 2-3 year closure of the deer hunt to allow populations to get back to where they should be... but it won't happen. You should see the deer herd in a state east of here that did just that - I am hopeful to draw the tag next year cause there are tons of deer and tons of decent bucks, with some real wallhangers!

I will be at all of the RAC's I can attend for sure, but I hope to have a bunch of you guys there too so I am not the only voice being heard. I would definitely join a muzzy assn - if someone wants to look at how the Bowhunters of Utah have positioned themselves, I think they have a good model. We could call it the USA - Utah Smokepole Association!

I think this change in seasons is slated for 2011, so we may just have a chance to get together at the RAC's and vote the change for 2010 down to give more time to discuss the implications and offer additional suggestions... either way, get to those RAC meetings!


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## mack1950

i have hunted them in nov and know in sept and to be honest i like the sept hunts but again thats just me and i dont really know what there talking about when there saying the early nov hunts are rut hunts while the bucks may be getten thick necked and looking at the ladies the rut doesnt start heating up till late nov at least the local bucks are breeding till than so either or would be a dam site better than sticking us right between the two rifle hunts if that happens ill be looking alot harder at archery are maybe even rifle. we need to have our voices heard as we have been quite way to long. go to the racks, send e mails
make a few phone calls something really need s to be done if we dont act were going to loose again big time. 
sorry i ll get of my soapbox  now


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## Nor-tah

TopofUtahArcher said:


> I am obviously an archery guy first, but I do hunt with all three weapons. I concur with statements that the archery community got together at the racs and frankly were undermined by some back-door lobbying by a couple specific SF groups...and we got nowhere... but with a renewed voice and some supported efforts from within the WB (Thanks Anis) we've gotten the statewide archery back for now...but don't think the fight is over - SFW and a couple of other special interest groups are working hard and playing really dirty back-room politics to try to make the whole state LE for all species and all hunts! There is a hidden agenda there folks - and I dread them getting their way... but that topic will have several pages of its own before long...
> 
> Speaking as one who hunts with a traditional muzzy - when I think of a muzzy hunt it is not an early season (though I would prefer an early velvet hunt than one between two rifle seasons!) but I rather see it as a late season...sometime in November. If memory serves, we used to start muzzy hunting around my b-day at Thanksgiving, but I also remember that the Muzzy hunt took a back seat to Dad's annual ID rifle hunt... I loved late muzzy hunting in the snow!
> 
> However, I feel that with the new technologies introduced by modern inlines has taken a lot of the challenge out of the game with *300+ yard accuracy*...and I feel the same with ultra long range rifles and to some degree with the current long range shots being taken with bows as well - so I have mixed feelings here - it's about matching wits with your quarry, not killing them at outrageous ranges! Heck, my last 3 bucks were all taken at under 40 yards in terrain ranging from above timberline to high desert with 10 inch tall scrub.
> I'd honestly like to see a general muzzle season for any form of muzzleloader before the rifle hunt, with a separate late season hunt for true short-range weapons (cap/flint and bow).
> 
> It is hard to have your cake and eat it too... especially when there isn't enough cake to go around as it is. With that said, I would like to see the DWR consider a rule that everyone provide a *MANDATORY* harvest report at the end of every hunt season we participate in. If left incomplete, hunters should be suspended from applying for *ANY hunt for ANY species (including sportsman's, landowner or conservation tags)* till the survey is accurately completed - so that accurate data can be collected regarding harvest rates, wounding rates, etc.
> 
> Also, I would like to see them impose a limit on harvests made by a single individual... say one deer every other year or something like in areas with low herd numbers in order allow herds to recover and give others a chance at success, with a waiting period for successful hunters similar to the dedicated hunter program... possibly with an option for service hours being done on behalf of wildlife through the division for them to earn back their application status.
> 
> There is no "cure-all" to our problems ... but I am willing to offer suggestions - such as in the N. region, I'd support a 2-3 year closure of the deer hunt to allow populations to get back to where they should be... but it won't happen. You should see the deer herd in a state east of here that did just that - I am hopeful to draw the tag next year cause there are tons of deer and tons of decent bucks, with some real wallhangers!
> 
> I will be at all of the RAC's I can attend for sure, but I hope to have a bunch of you guys there too so I am not the only voice being heard. I would definitely join a muzzy assn - if someone wants to look at how the Bowhunters of Utah have positioned themselves, I think they have a good model. We could call it the USA - Utah Smokepole Association!
> 
> I think this change in seasons is slated for 2011, so we may just have a chance to get together at the RAC's and vote the change for 2010 down to give more time to discuss the implications and offer additional suggestions... either way, get to those RAC meetings!


I 100 percent agree with everything you said here except this. No one is shooting muzzys with open sights that far. I have shot mine a TON and almost past on a deer at 120 yards this year. Any further and I would have for sure. Other than that though, I agree. I'll see you at the RAC.


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## TopofUtahArcher

Watch the Muley Crazy videos... they are from the 90's and early 2K's and Ryan Hatch shoots a White inline at a rock at 200+ and drills it with irons... I can shoot my Traditions 50 at 100 and knock off a 4x4x4 piece of wood 3 of 4 shots with open sights... now add a 1x optic with a reticle and tune it for a 300 yarder... I know of guys right here shooting at over 400 with their open sights and are killing (and wounding) game. I think we need to tame this long range stuff in every part of the sport of hunting... it is about matching wits with the quarry - and no, I personally don't think it is fair chase to take long shots at big animals... especially at big animals. If someone was starving and needed the meat that'd be different cause they wouldn't be shooting at big bucks from 1100-1200 yards to brag or to promote their long range shooting courses,etc... Nothing personal meant to the guy who shoots a ton and can actually do it with one or two shots, but I see way too many guys unlading magazines or quickloaders or even quivers at long range just to get one into that trophy animal.

I repeat, it is about matching wits with your quarry and getting as close as possible before making a single, killing strike. We have enough people trying to stop our traditions and enjoyment of the sport without promoting their fight with poor decision making or laziness... sorry for the soapbox, but it is how I feel.


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## Treehugnhuntr

I will 100% agree and emphasize what Lance said. No matter what your angle or cause, get out to RAC meetings and let your voice be heard. The more we as the public are involved in these processes, the less they are susceptible to special interest and a select few dictating policy. See you all there.


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## Nor-tah

BUMP!!! I'll see you guys tonight!!! Springville Jr. High. I wont be there till later because of class but will look for the UWN group in the back!


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## coydog

sharpshooter25, I am with you. What i recall they changed the muzzy hunt from Nov to Sep because they said the deer were being chased to much and it was messing them up during the rut.


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## Nor-tah

Wow, an intense night at the RAC.. I think I saw CoyoteSlayer in the back? I got their late and was unable to comment. Things got pretty heated between rac members, angry hunters, and Anis. I think all the preasures good, they cant be complacent. Who was that guy on the far left in the camo jacket. He sure is outspoken!


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## Fly22

That was me, jk.

It is good to put some pressure on them. We'll never have 100% satisfaction but things need to change some.


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## caddis8

I'll chime in a little bit. Growing up in Utah and now living in Nebraska, I'll compare the two just a little bit. I can't compare the hunting itself because it is comparing apples to oranges. The amount of public land available in Utah compared to NE is crazy, you Utahns should count your lucky stars. 

The number of deer in Nebraska is also vastly different. I have the opportunity to take 4 deer in one year. I can hunt 2 of the 3 seasons, and for MZ and archery, they are statewide tags and come with a bonus antlerless whitetail doe tag....for $30 a tag. 

The opportunity to hunt out here is fantastic. The areas available to hunt are tough-I have to drive 2 1/2 hours to hunt a spot I know pretty well. 

The rifle season here is the 2nd Saturday in November through the 3rd Sunday. The archery hunt is the latter part of September to the start of the rifle hunt and then the day after the rifle hunt through the end of the year. The MZ hunt is the month of Dec. I love this hunt. It's colder, the deer move more, and I have been able to take deer. 

The one thing I absolutely think is great is the mandatory harvest report that must be done. This year I can check a deer in for the MZ or archery online. That's pretty cool. The information this provides is very good information. We have to give the location of our hunting, species, sex, and adult or fawn, on the report. This is compiled and the state can manage its deer herd. 

Utah needs to have a mandatory harvest reporting system. It needs as much information as possible from the hnters of this great state. 

I think the MZ hunt isn't a great idea split between the two seasons. THis sounds like what CO is doing as far as splitting the seasons and its a pretty big circucs. But, CO puts a lot of hunters throught the system and keeps them comnig back...


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## Matt B

Sorry I just found this post, good posts on this. I am replying because I am a traditional mz hunter. Have done it in Utah for seven years, because we shoot mz at rondy's we attend. Here are my points.

1. _Modern inlines and rifles are baiscally the same._ Call BS on that one! I sold my old 25-06 with a 3x9 scope. I bet I can make a whole lot more shots with that old bolt action than my CVA hawken.

2. In all those years hunting mz northern region, have not seen one DNR employee! So how do they know how many hunters are out during these times?

3. To me the season as is, or back to the later November session would be best. I chose mz hunt, my choice! Due to those dates and the challange of hunting with a primitive type weapon. But sandwiched in the middle makes no sense. I would like to see why the state thinks this is a good time, some data.

4. Guys I think this has already happened, minds are made up in the DNR. So if it goes through and we want it changed back. My only thought is, *WE SKIP A DEER HUNTING YEAR* If you think about that, how much money would be lost by those tags not being sold for a hunt that stinks. Then I think our voice will be listened to. If this happens, Idaho is only 30 min away for me. I'll give them my money.

5. Last, what will this do to the dedicated hunter program? I'm not one, but would not want to do the program if this change happens. There would be no advantage in my mind to hunting all three seasons.

I have never attended a RAC meeting, but that will proabably change this year. I really think that if our voices are not listened to. Taking away money will make them a little louder. Thanks for brining this up.


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## chipp

:x


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## Treehugnhuntr

:roll:


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## Treehugnhuntr

Matt B said:


> Sorry I just found this post, good posts on this. I am replying because I am a traditional mz hunter. Have done it in Utah for seven years, because we shoot mz at rondy's we attend. Here are my points.
> 
> 1. _Modern inlines and rifles are baiscally the same._ Call BS on that one! I sold my old 25-06 with a 3x9 scope. I bet I can make a whole lot more shots with that old bolt action than my CVA hawken.
> 
> 2. In all those years hunting mz northern region, have not seen one DNR employee! So how do they know how many hunters are out during these times?
> 
> 3. To me the season as is, or back to the later November session would be best. I chose mz hunt, my choice! Due to those dates and the challange of hunting with a primitive type weapon. But sandwiched in the middle makes no sense. I would like to see why the state thinks this is a good time, some data.
> 
> 4. Guys I think this has already happened, minds are made up in the DNR. So if it goes through and we want it changed back. *My only thought is, WE SKIP A DEER HUNTING YEAR If you think about that, how much money would be lost by those tags not being sold for a hunt that stinks.* Then I think our voice will be listened to. If this happens, Idaho is only 30 min away for me. I'll give them my money.
> 
> 5. Last, what will this do to the dedicated hunter program? I'm not one, but would not want to do the program if this change happens. There would be no advantage in my mind to hunting all three seasons.
> 
> I have never attended a RAC meeting, but that will proabably change this year. I really think that if our voices are not listened to. Taking away money will make them a little louder. Thanks for brining this up.


The muzzy tags come out of the general rifle pool, so I doubt there would be left over tags even if every muzzy hunter in the state boycotted this, which obviously won't happen.

I personally don't think this is a forgone conclusion, I would get out there and lobby for the muzzy not to be stuck in the middle of the 2 rifle seasons, they can and will change it if they get enough pressure and it makes sense.


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## Nor-tah

I agree with Tree. The way to get this changed is to LOBBY and SHOW up to EVERY rac meeting next year. I'll continue to update everyone but PLEASE SEND EMAILS to the wildlife board and the rac members and Anis. Thats the only way this is going to change. If you dont do this you better start dusting off the old rifles. I know I will. The state needs to see that this is stupid and will lead to more crowding on the GS hunts which is what they are trying to eliminate right now.


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## Matt B

I agree with lobbying. But......if you effect the income stream. People take notice a little more. I'm not gulable enough to believe that everyone would miss the hunt for a year. But if you got between 5 - 10% decrease in revenue, that's a few less new DNR trucks on the road.........

If you don't think this is true. How many menu items have gone the way of the dodo in your favorite fast food restaraunt over the years? Why? Because if people stop buying them, you can't pay the bills.


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## Packbasket

until they make it a flintlock, loose blackpowder and patched round ball only season I don't care when they have it.

I'd be all for it being the very last of the seasons with the present equipment allowed.


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## redleg

I agree woth Packbasket. Although I would have to convert some of my caplocks to flintlocks. that would be a great hunt :lol:


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## quakeycrazy

What I love about all the responses you guys have received from the RAC commitee members is that they all share the same B.S. excuses for the muzzleloader being in between the rifle. Funny how they claim that Rifle hunters and Muzz hunters have the same success rate when in their proposal they posted on their own site they state:

"After the limited-entry archery hunt ended in mid September, the limited-entry muzzleloader elk hunt would start the next day. Muzzleloader elk hunters would have the elk to themselves for four days. Then the limited-entry rifle hunt would also begin. Both the muzzleloader hunt and the rifle hunt would end on the same day in early October.

"Because they use *rifles*, *rifle* hunters have a better chance at taking an elk than archery or *muzzleloader* hunters do," Aoude says"

Maybe they meant to say only rifle elk hunters have a better success rate than rifle deer hunters!! What a bunch of genius' :roll:


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## Treehugnhuntr

I would say that limited entry elk is a completely different critter than general deer.


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## quakeycrazy

I'd like to hunt where you do, I can shoot more deer with a rifle than a muzz any day, same with LE elk, cow elk, cow moose, coyote or even Sasquatch, rifle is going to have a higher success rate. But I do see some of your point, rutting bulls are easier to hunt but their excuse is still B.S.


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## Nor-tah

BUMP!! Heres some awesome news I got in an email today!! I got permission to post it here.



> At the Board meeting on December 3rd, it was agreed to move the ML hunt ahead of the AW hunts. This should address your concern & those of a number of others who had made input on the same topic.
> As an individual, I also feel it important to advise of the success rates differences between our modern weapons. In 2007, statewide buck deer hunting, AW (rifle) success rate was 28%, ML was 27.6%, and
> archery (with the longer season) was 19.1%.
> 
> I assure you that there was nothing nefarious or devious in the first draft proposal; it was developed & revised several times & then put out to gather public inputs. It is a very complicated project with dozens of different stakeholder groups. We anticipated that there would be good inputs that asked for improvements - & there were. We appreciate the feedback & were pleased to incorporate a change.


Thanks for all your help guys. The squeeky wheel gets the grease!


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## Fly22

That is great news. Good job guys, thanks for all your voices!!!


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## ridgetop

Good job guys!


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## SteepNDeep

That's great news. I thought the schedule was no good for the deer. Thanks to those who made the difference.


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## Matt B

Ok question, and sorry if I'm high jacking......



> In 2007, statewide buck deer hunting, AW (rifle) success rate was 28%, ML was 27.6%, and
> archery (with the longer season) was 19.1%.


Wouldn't it stand to reason if you have less ML hunters than AW, the percentages would be closer? Not a statistician, but less people hunting with same amount of deer harvested. I would think that would make the percentage go up......

But just glad they left the season where it is.....


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## mack1950

i agree with matt first the amount of folks hunting and i beleive as far as the primative weapons types were alot more dedicated to the hunt itself and are
not for the most part looking for a family outing. so put those two things alone
into the mix and i can see why the success level is almost comparable to aw
hunters.


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## Nor-tah

True, I agree with both of you! Plus I think the state does a HORRIBLE job with these stats. I for one have never been checked or asked about harvest and I have harvested a few deer.. I personally think they are just guesses.


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## RobK

I was told the 2011 hunt was going to be a combine deer and elk hunt . is that true ?? I hope not !!! The place i hunt deer has no elk and the place i hunt elk has no/very few deer . I hope its not combined , the more time in the field the better . If they had gone ahead with these plans , i would stop big game hunting all together and just stick with birds and coyotes and fly fishing .


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## ramrod

I was at a meeting a few weeks back and one of the ideas that were talked about for the 2011 season is splitting up the elk and deer rifle hunts in two seasons.

Get this the muzzleloader hunters would get to hunt for 4 days then they are talking about putting the first rifle hunt with the muzzy hunters at the same time :evil: 

We need the muzzy hunters to start showing up at the meetings or we could find ourselves hunting with rifle hunters.


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## bigthree

I also heard that the LEE the muzzy was going to be before the Aw hunt but after 5days the last 4 was going to be shared with Aw hunts in september I like the idea going before the Aw hunt. give us the 9 days like the Aw uninterupted hunt does


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## Nor-tah

This is a great thread and needs to be bumped. Please state your opinions to the Board through Emails and Calls. PM me for emaisl fo those you should contact it or go to the DWR site under Big Game, Rac, Wildlife Board. We need to be heard!


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