# 2011s 1st 400"er,,Mossback/Arizona



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well mossbacks first 400"er hit the ground Saturday using the Arizona
governors tag, These tags allows the permit to be filled any time during the year.

Here's the link to tons of pictures and a good story, They spent 3 years trying to
harvest this bull...........

http://mossbackarizonahunts.blogspot.com/


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

good grief!!!!

thanks for sharing


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## MuleyCrazy (Jun 6, 2010)

Great bull, I wouldn't want to hunt in July and kill a bull when it still has velvet, that seems odd to me. (Regardless of what tag i have.)


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Since this is kind of a Arizona governor tag thing,,

Check out this bad-azz 94" antelope that was harvested last week.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/D ... /4619.html


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

great bull but woulda looked a lot better without that velvet on him.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

MuleyCrazy said:


> Great bull, I wouldn't want to hunt in July and kill a bull when it still has velvet, that seems odd to me. (Regardless of what tag i have.)


Sounds like his tag was going to expire so he had to. The tag was good for 1 year and he started hunting last August. I like the hard horns better too, just sayin :mrgreen:


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## MuleyCrazy (Jun 6, 2010)

El Matador said:


> MuleyCrazy said:
> 
> 
> > Great bull, I wouldn't want to hunt in July and kill a bull when it still has velvet, that seems odd to me. (Regardless of what tag i have.)
> ...


If that's the case and the tag was about to expire, especially a governors tag, i wouldn't mind what was on its antlers. All i would care about at that point is if i filled the tag or not.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

those fourths are INSANE!!!


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## foreverbowhunter (Jan 4, 2011)

WOW!!!! what a goat! i personally like the the velvet, but that's just me.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

I would LOVE the opportunity to get a bull like that in velvet.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

that story leaves me asking "was this fair chase?" 

"This entire summer found us pounding the hills in search of this great bull and our hard work paid off as we were able to relocate him and learn his daily habits. This bull was very habitual and kept a daily routine..."

Honestly, I hate hearing about these bulls that get no break from constant harassment from "guides", or other hunters that feel the need to "scout" year round...

Give 'em a break for God's sake!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Its not guiding, it's bounty hunting. It should be outlawed.

What about all the Jonny punch clock guys in AZ who waited twenty years to draw that tag... They got no chance against the Mossback army. Sad and lame... :?

No matter how you try to rationalize it, it's an unfair advantage and is NOT ethical fair chase hunting.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

They took 3 years to find and kill this bull, by the looks of his size he lived a good mature life. Fair chase? Absolutely.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Yeah....shame on those guy's for doing all that homework just to shoot a trophy. It would be so much easier to stay home, no scouting, no studying, hiking, watching, no reading and not learn about the animals you're about to hunt. Life would be so much better just to wake up with a Governor's tag and go shoot some 'ole ugly rag-horn in the neighbor's pasture. :roll:


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I wish my Job was to go out and scout elk everyday! I can barely find time as it is!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I guess that's just a different outlook on what hunting is about. These days, it's all about scoring. Inches. 400+. It's a sad time.

I remember a time when we were excited to go hunt. The exciting part was the "unknown". We had no idea what animals would be in the area we hunted. We had no idea if it would be full of 300" bulls (back then, we didn't know what inches were -- all we knew was the number of points!), or nothing but cattle. Part of the excitement was finding a nice 4-point buck, and taking our chances, not ever knowing that there was another bigger, badder, buck in the area.

these days, we know the animals by name. We know what time they take their naps. We know where they feed, and which water holes they like to drink from vs. roll and piss in. We know the hour of the day that he (the "big guy") dropped his last set of antlers, and we have those antlers in our shed back home. We know that he broke his G3 last year during the rut. We know that he'll stop for 5 minutes below that certain tree -- and we've already got the tree-stand setup in that tree. We know that he likes apples, and we need to remember to take the apple out of his mouth before we take the "kill shot" picture. Then we'll drive our side-by-side ATV to the kill location, load the animal in the bed, and then drive back out making our own "new" road. We'll get back to the trailer and download the pictures to our laptop computer, then log in to Utahwildlife.net and post a full account of the days hunt to the www using our verizon cell connection. Then we'll pack up camp and change locations, because we already know that there aren't any other animals worthy of shooting in this particular location. But we have another dude already "scouted" in that other area. The bucket of apples is ready for deployment. All we have to do is show up. We already know what he's going to do...


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

And the inches beat goes on!!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

bwhntr said:


> They took 3 years to find and kill this bull, by the looks of his size he lived a good mature life. Fair chase? Absolutely.


You're on glue...


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Good looking bull and buck antelope. That sad thing is the bull was still growing.They should have waited for another month before killing him.The other sad thing is that moss back got him not a true hunter.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> bwhntr said:
> 
> 
> > They took 3 years to find and kill this bull, by the looks of his size he lived a good mature life. Fair chase? Absolutely.
> ...


 :roll:


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## rosedude (Dec 26, 2010)

They should have waited for another month before killing him.The other sad thing is that moss back got him not a true hunter.[/quote]

:O--O: well said.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

yeah, you have a guy deploy an arsenal of scouts to do all the dirty work and then call up the guy to come in and pull the trigger. Bounty hunting is a good description. this bull had some great genes that kept him alive these past few years but they were no match for a ton of scouts in july to take him down. both great looking animals tho.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Just playing devils advocate here since I don't like Mossback any more than the next hunter but just how many of you here on this board wouldn't of shot the elk here. Hamberlin, the hunter had the money to buy the tag for a 365 day hunt and weather you agree with it or not it also sounds like the had the money to hire Mossback so why shouldn't of he of been able to harvest the elk? I agree that it would of been nice if he could or would of waited another month or so along with the rules for the hunt to be within a normal hunting season and hunting with the correct weapon for that hunt but those were not the rules, he had a 365 day hunting license for a bull elk. 

I know that every year I donate some money for a chance at one of those 365 day tags for elk, deer, bear, cougar, desert bighorn and a few other animals in a drawing that is held in Arizona and would be happier than the proverbial pig in slop if I by chance drew one of those coveted tags.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

PBH said:


> I guess that's just a different outlook on what hunting is about. These days, it's all about scoring. Inches. 400+. It's a sad time.
> 
> I remember a time when we were excited to go hunt. The exciting part was the "unknown". We had no idea what animals would be in the area we hunted. We had no idea if it would be full of 300" bulls (back then, we didn't know what inches were -- all we knew was the number of points!), or nothing but cattle. Part of the excitement was finding a nice 4-point buck, and taking our chances, not ever knowing that there was another bigger, badder, buck in the area.
> 
> these days, we know the animals by name. We know what time they take their naps. We know where they feed, and which water holes they like to drink from vs. roll and **** in. We know the hour of the day that he (the "big guy") dropped his last set of antlers, and we have those antlers in our shed back home. We know that he broke his G3 last year during the rut. We know that he'll stop for 5 minutes below that certain tree -- and we've already got the tree-stand setup in that tree. We know that he likes apples, and we need to remember to take the apple out of his mouth before we take the "kill shot" picture. Then we'll drive our side-by-side ATV to the kill location, load the animal in the bed, and then drive back out making our own "new" road. We'll get back to the trailer and download the pictures to our laptop computer, then log in to Utahwildlife.net and post a full account of the days hunt to the www using our verizon cell connection. Then we'll pack up camp and change locations, because we already know that there aren't any other animals worthy of shooting in this particular location. But we have another dude already "scouted" in that other area. The bucket of apples is ready for deployment. All we have to do is show up. We already know what he's going to do...


Why don't you tell us how you really feel.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

That bull was DONE growing,,,,,as is all the bigger bulls now...

Look for them to rub velvet off on about August 13th.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Look for them to rub velvet off on about August 13th.


At 8:27 a.m.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > Look for them to rub velvet off on about August 13th.
> ...


Mountain standard time...


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> That bull was DONE growing,,,,,as is all the bigger bulls now...
> 
> Look for them to rub velvet off on about August 13th.


proving a point without even knowing it...


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> That bull was DONE growing,,,,,as is all the bigger bulls now...
> 
> Look for them to rub velvet off on about August 13th.


But the smaller ones aren't DONE yet, so they have to wait 'til the big boys are finished rubbing! Maybe on the 15th or 16th.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

There are only so many rubbing trees in the forest! The little ones have to wait their turn!


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## Jonwo (Apr 29, 2010)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Finnegan said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="goofy elk":39dtd4x4]Look for them to rub velvet off on about August 13th.
> ...


Mountain standard time...[/quote:39dtd4x4]

I have to work somebody take pictures please.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> That bull was DONE growing,,,,,as is all the bigger bulls now...
> 
> Look for them to rub velvet off on about August 13th.


I disagree they might not be going as fast in the other months.They are still going for a least a couple more weeks. Yes some might be done.


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

PBH said:


> I guess that's just a different outlook on what hunting is about. These days, it's all about scoring. Inches. 400+. It's a sad time.
> 
> I remember a time when we were excited to go hunt. The exciting part was the "unknown". We had no idea what animals would be in the area we hunted. We had no idea if it would be full of 300" bulls (back then, we didn't know what inches were -- all we knew was the number of points!), or nothing but cattle. Part of the excitement was finding a nice 4-point buck, and taking our chances, not ever knowing that there was another bigger, badder, buck in the area.
> 
> these days, we know the animals by name. We know what time they take their naps. We know where they feed, and which water holes they like to drink from vs. roll and **** in. We know the hour of the day that he (the "big guy") dropped his last set of antlers, and we have those antlers in our shed back home. We know that he broke his G3 last year during the rut. We know that he'll stop for 5 minutes below that certain tree -- and we've already got the tree-stand setup in that tree. We know that he likes apples, and we need to remember to take the apple out of his mouth before we take the "kill shot" picture. Then we'll drive our side-by-side ATV to the kill location, load the animal in the bed, and then drive back out making our own "new" road. We'll get back to the trailer and download the pictures to our laptop computer, then log in to Utahwildlife.net and post a full account of the days hunt to the www using our verizon cell connection. Then we'll pack up camp and change locations, because we already know that there aren't any other animals worthy of shooting in this particular location. But we have another dude already "scouted" in that other area. The bucket of apples is ready for deployment. All we have to do is show up. We already know what he's going to do...


One of the best posts I've ever read on here. I can't wait until my kids get old enough to hunt so I can teach them that inches of antler have nothing to do with the value of the hunt or the animal, and that reducing an animal to a number value is disrespectful both to the animal and to the hunter.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Pumpgunner said:


> One of the best posts I've ever read on here. I can't wait until my kids get old enough to hunt so I can teach them that inches of antler have nothing to do with the value of the hunt or the animal, and that reducing an animal to a number value is disrespectful both to the animal and to the hunter.


I can get down with that.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Disrespectful? Interesting...

Ok, so your hunting and come across a 18" three point standing next to a 35" 5x5. The 3 point is standing perfectly broadside with a perfect kill shot. The larger buck isn't offering a good shot. Since it isn't about inches no reason to wait to see if the 5x5 presents a shot, just kill the 3 point and respect your animal. Besides the younger smaller buck will be better eating. coughcoughbull****coughcough

I don't care who you are....it's always about inches. I'm not ashamed to admit inches are very important to me.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I personally don't think people should shun big antlered animals, we all like them. It's a matter of where we place the line and the result of over-emphasizing antler size. We are talking ego, status etc. It makes and has made many a good folk make poor decisions.

Personally, I don't want my kid to grow up thinking that the majority of success is dictated by kill, much less size of antler. I've seen and talked to way too many people that are ashamed of or feel they are less than because they didn't harvest an animal or what they would consider a "worthy" animal. Shane, can you honestly say you haven't heard someone belittle their LE animal? Never heard "Well, it wasn't the one I was after" or "Ahh, thought he was bigger" bla, bla, bla.

With that said, do you think it is a healthy philosophy for society as a whole to carry around to have everything predicated on one final result which more often than not won't be obtained? I think we're setting ourselves up for failure and misery if we can't enjoy the journey, cause the destination is often less glitter filled than our over-expectational minds often project and in the end, isn't hunting about fulfillment? 

I see predominant antler focus as the proverbial hole in the bottom of ego-guy's bucket. The only way to plug it is to do a little self learning and realize that egotism and things that feed the ego are detrimental to one's true self.

Aside from all of the other negative biological and societal results.

Can one seek a large antlered animal and still fulfill these thing? Sure, it's all about perspective and motive.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

I can agree it is about the experience more than the kill. I have passed on many smaller bucks and went home with nothing and felt very satisfied after my hunt. Even last year on my LE archery elk hunt I hunted 22 days (plus scouting) passed on 12+ easy kill bulls because I set a goal for a 350+ bull. Opening weekend passed on a broadside 335 bull standing at 25 yards. Would have been a great bull for anyone with a bow. Killed a much smaller bull on the second to last day. To be honest, I was happy to go home with nothing. It is about inches for me. Chasing inches last year gave me more experiences in 22 days than some have in a lifetime. The memories I have are priceless.

Sure you can blame it on ego...maybe we just need a way to "measure" up from time to time. Nothing wrong with that. There is a place in this world for meat hunters, head hunters, and everyone in between. We are all hunters. We love being out, we love the chase. My favorite part of hunting...packing my horses with a dead animal. I love that feeling almost as much as the actual hunt. weird huh? I just don't understand kicking a guy for killing a 400" bull and call him disrespectful. Really? I see a guy that respects the animal so much he passed on several 300 bulls letting them live full lives in pursuit of the more elusive bigger one.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

bwhntr said:


> Disrespectful? Interesting...
> 
> Ok, so your hunting and come across a 18" three point standing next to a 35" 5x5. The 3 point is standing perfectly broadside with a perfect kill shot. The larger buck isn't offering a good shot. Since it isn't about inches no reason to wait to see if the 5x5 presents a shot, just kill the 3 point and respect your animal. Besides the younger smaller buck will be better eating. coughcoughbull****coughcough
> 
> I don't care who you are....it's always about inches. I'm not ashamed to admit inches are very important to me.


Actually, it isn't ALWAYS about inches. That's one reason I hunt antlerless big game, and rabbits, and grouse.

In your scenerio, most hunters would probably try for the big one, but only because the two of them appeared together. But not everyone would have been out for 4 or 5 weekends in a row scouting for that 35" 5x5, nor would they have paid $50,000 for the tag, or another $50,000 to have a crew of 5 spotters keeping track of him for 3 months, nor would they attempt to create laws or policies designed to create more of those 35" 5X5's so that next year they could top it with a 36" 6X6 that didn't take a bullet this year, all at the expense of other deer hunters and the herd.

I don't know what "very important" means to you, but you can beat it doesn't have the same meaning to most of the "_I don't care who you are"_s I know!

You're more than welcome to your trophy mindset because that's who you prefer to be and I even applaud you, but don't assume everyone thinks like you and please don't attempt to control our hunting experience to fit your mindset!

Sorry, I guess I'm a little late with my post, but maybe it will put things in a different light for some of you.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Agree to disagree. btw, I too hunt cow elk.

Because I prefer to hunt for inches has no effect on how or what you decide what you want to hunt. Please don't attempt to control my hunting experience to fit your mindset!

Throw out all the trail cams, guides, buddies helping buddies, four wheelers, scopes, compound bows, inline ML...As they are ALL taking away from your experience and disrespecting the animal.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

bwhntr said:


> Agree to disagree. btw, I too hunt cow elk.
> 
> Because I prefer to hunt for inches has no effect on how or what you decide what you want to hunt. Please don't attempt to control my hunting experience to fit your mindset!
> 
> Throw out all the trail cams, guides, buddies helping buddies, four wheelers, scopes, compound bows, inline ML...As they are ALL taking away from your experience and disrespecting the animal.


I'm happy to see it isn't ALWAYS about inches, even with you!

You're correct in saying your hunting mindset has no effect on how or what I decide I want to hunt. However, those with that mindset have managed to set most of the laws/regulations/rules/policies that currently control my decisions regarding my hunting experience, and the tenants of Option #2 which was promoted by them will have a significant effect on my hunting decisions and experiences in the future.

As far as the trail cams, guides, buddies etc. to each his own. If it enhances your hunting experience, use it. If it doesn't, don't.

And as for disrespecting the animal, that too is up to each hunter. In my view, the only ones who disrespect an animal are the ones who break the law while pursuing it. I do, however have the right to have an opinion about the hunter. It's like a wealthy man. How I regard him has everything to do with how he became wealthy and what he does with it. We know how this hunter got the trophy, now let's see what he does with it (The trophy, his story, the pictures, the offers, etc.)


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I see where you are coming from and agree to much of your silly ramblings. :mrgreen:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

stablebuck said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > That bull was DONE growing,,,,,as is all the bigger bulls now...
> ...


"
"As the antlers reach maturity, calcium and phosphate are deposited and the portion of the bone that is protein declines to close to 50%. Not all of the calcium and phosphorus that goes into the antlers comes from eating; a substantial amount is acquired from the existing bones of the animal, essentially thinning them. This process is under hormonal control."
This part of the "hardening" process takes about 3 to 4 weeks..
http://www.geneseo.edu/~briggs/biodiver ... antler.htm


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

:O•-: :lol:


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

bwhntr said:


> Disrespectful? Interesting...
> 
> Ok, so your hunting and come across a 18" three point standing next to a 35" 5x5. The 3 point is standing perfectly broadside with a perfect kill shot. The larger buck isn't offering a good shot. Since it isn't about inches no reason to wait to see if the 5x5 presents a shot, just kill the 3 point and respect your animal. Besides the younger smaller buck will be better eating. coughcoughbull****coughcough
> 
> I don't care who you are....it's always about inches. I'm not ashamed to admit inches are very important to me.


Your post shows everything wrong with today's hunting mentality.

15 years ago, your post wouldn't have said anything about the inches. It would have said "a 3 point standing next to a 5 point...".

Obviously, any hunter is going to attempt a shot at "the bigger" of the two. But, today it's not about being "bigger" it's about "inches".

The thing you forgot to mention in your scenario is that there would be no question about taking a shot -- because we knew 3 months ago that the 35" 5x5 was in the area. We named him "skippy" because of the happy-go-lucky way he skipped through the open meadows. We filmed him every day for the last 3 months. We smelled his bedding area when he left to go feed, just so we'd recognize his scent. We watched that 18" 3-point following him, envying him, learning from him. We also named the 3-point ("spot"). We knew right where they'd be at 7:30 am that opening morning.

So the 18" 3-point was never even a consideration. We already knew he'd be standing there, to the side of "skippy". We decide to take that bad shot because we know that there are 25 other hunters in the area looking for that same buck, because they've also been scouting him for the last 12 months. They also know that "spot" will be with him, and they aren't interested in "spot". They know that once "skippy" leaves this particular spot, he's going to head down that one trail, and they've dumped a fresh bunch of apples just below their tree-stand so that he'll stop for an extra minute and give them a shot at him...

Just think of the excitement of walking through the trees not knowing what might be in the area, and then stumbling in to that same 3-point and 5-point -- not having a clue that you might get the opportunity to find such a rare treasure! Not so in today's penis-measuring-contest we call "hunting". Nope. Hunting just isn't what it used to be. I guess the game changed, and I'm still trying to play by the old rules. Oh well. To each his own.


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## kailey29us (May 26, 2011)

PBH said:


> bwhntr said:
> 
> 
> > Disrespectful? Interesting...
> ...


I still dont understand the point you are trying to get accross. Scouting is bad? I scout, I enjoy watching these animals feeding through a meadow, hanging out in the timber or just laying around in their beds. I take my kids with me when I go scouting, I teach them about the woods while we are walking. When we see an animal I give them a hunting scenario. Would you shoot that deer/elk? Is that an ethical shot? Going out on the mountain lets me show my kids the animals when they are calm and relaxed. Not like during the season when they are running at full speed trying to get away from some idiot shooting at them a mile away while they are on a dead run. If you dont like the advantage scouting gives me then get out and do some scouting yourself.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Kailey -- I actually think you get it. I think you're doing things the right way. I think there is a big difference in what you are doing, and what many others are doing. Personally, I think there is a difference in spending time in the woods watching animals, preparing, scouting vs. spending every day in the woods monitoring specific animals. Again, that's just my opinion. Natural Born Rebel would disagree with me, and tell you his opinion. Nothing wrong with seeing things differently. We each get our "fix" in different ways. We each have a different view of how things should be done. We can't all be right all the time. I prefer red-heads.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

PBH said:


> Kailey .. We each get our "fix" in different ways. We each have a different view of how things should be done. We can't all be right all the time. *I prefer red-heads*.


There lies the problem.....I prefer blondes...


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

It's not *"hunting"* anymore for many folks, unless you consider hunting for the checkbook, hunting for the right guide, hunting for the taxidermist, hunting for the right people to rub shoulders with for the right price or right animal or right opportunity etc." is still considered *"hunting".*

Ahh hell, I guess it is *"hunting"* just a different type of challenge I guess.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

bwhntr said:


> Because I prefer to hunt for inches has no effect on how or what you decide what you want to hunt. Please don't attempt to control my hunting experience to fit your mindset!


You are right on about this statement......until the deer management plan is up for revision. Then you can bet there will be a few "inch" hunters that will do everything they can to control my future hunting experiences to fit their mindset.

This is WHY this debate is even happening!!


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

I am just here to post in this ever so important, never ending, dead horse beating, retarded argument. 

PS I don't hunt big game any more because I don't feel like it is worth my time.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Joel Draxler said:


> I can spit into Idaho from my front poarch..


I couldn't resist.

try "porch"...


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

PBH said:


> Joel Draxler said:
> 
> 
> > I can spit into Idaho from my front poarch..
> ...


Fixed it, thanks. Apparently I've been reading dkhntrdstn's posts too much and it has worn off on me. :O•-:

Thanks.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Joel Draxler said:


> I am just here to post in this ever so important, never ending, dead horse beating, retarded argument.
> 
> *PS I don't hunt big game any more because I don't feel like it is worth my time.*


Thus this ever so important, never ending, dead horse beating, retarded argument.


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

Pumpgunner said:


> One of the best posts I've ever read on here. I can't wait until my kids get old enough to hunt so I can teach them that inches of antler have nothing to do with the value of the hunt or the animal, and that reducing an animal to a number value is disrespectful both to the animal and to the hunter.


couldnt agree more with the above quote!! It is so sad that many hunters measure the success by inches instead of what the real value of the hunt is. but that is what one of the consequences of commercialized hunting. Heard if from a waterfowl guide who stopped big game guiding after he had a client tell him he wouldnt be happy with the hunt til the skull was measured. Last time he guided big game.


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