# For those it may concern…



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

The new RAC meeting recommendations and the new elk plan has been published 






RAC, Board meeting agendas, materials & minutes


Action items on the agenda are voted on by the RACs and the Board. Wildlife Board meetings usually occur a few weeks after the Northern, Central, Northeastern, Southeastern and Southern RAC meetings.




wildlife.utah.gov


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks for posting this - a quick glance at some of the proposals makes me think this will be a interesting meeting to attend … bring some popcorn!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Oh boy…


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

CPAjeff said:


> Thanks for posting this - a quick glance at some of the proposals makes me think this will be a interesting meeting to attend … bring some popcorn!


Get some popcorn is right! Some pretty interesting ideas in there. Who is putting in for the LE December Archery hunt lol?!?


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I wonder if the 15k any bull early permits will be OTC or in a draw--lots of interesting stuff in there


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Anyone notice this bit?

“General-season archery elk permits would be bull-only permits”


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Ray said:


> Anyone notice this bit?
> 
> “General-season archery elk permits would be bull-only permits”


Yep - noticed that. LOTS and LOTS of potential changes in the RAC packet!


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Airborne said:


> I wonder if the 15k any bull early permits will be OTC or in a draw--lots of interesting stuff in there


I wonder if they will change the dates for the “late hunt” or keep it as is

I like the unlimited aspect of it


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Ray said:


> Anyone notice this bit?
> 
> “General-season archery elk permits would be bull-only permits”


No more hunters choice. If you are going to offer more opportunity to hunt bulls you have to protect the cows to ensure populations remain stable. Not sure how many cows are killed on GS archery tags each year but I'm sure it's enough to justify the change given the effort to expand opportunity.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Ray said:


> I wonder if they will change the dates for the “late hunt” or keep it as is
> 
> I like the unlimited aspect of it


These are the recommended dates, it's buried pretty deep in the packet.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Ray said:


> Anyone notice this bit?
> 
> “General-season archery elk permits would be bull-only permits”


page 22 section A. a. ii
_General season archery antlerless elk permits with seasons coinciding with general season archery bull elk hunts in August and September on any bull and spike units that are at or exceeding objective, or as specified by the Utah Wildlife Board_

Hunters will still be able to hunt cow elk OTC archery but it will be limited to units that are exceeding objective. This isn't that big of a deal--they have done this in the past limiting certain units to spike only like the bookcliffs and Monroe in years past

*I think we all better read this entire packet before making statements and causing misunderstandings on the forum--this includes myself!*


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

I believe that says there will be antlerless archery permits that have seasons COINCIDING with the general elk hunt. Sounds to me like separate permit from the GS Archery permit for those units over objective. Seems pretty clear that you wouldn't be able to tag a cow with your GS archery tag based on this language in the law below. Notice, it says a person with a general archery elk permit may take, a bull on bull unit or spike on spike unit. But antlerless elk is crossed out, so you can't tag a cow with that permit any longer with the exception of the extended hunts. 










Anyone else reading it that way?


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## Seven (Jan 8, 2009)

The archery elk thing....after first glance I got that archery elk will now be bull only. And that general archery antlerless tags will be available through the anterless draw for certain areas that are over objective for the general archery season dates. If that is true, it should relieve some of the pressure of point creep in the antlerless draw( which I think I saw that statement.)

Lots of interesting stuff. I'm not currently worried about scopes being taken away from muzzleloader as much since there should be enough debate on all those changes.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Airborne said:


> *I think we all better read this entire packet before making statements and causing misunderstandings on the forum*


Agreed. But the original statement that general OTC archery tags is proposed to going to bull only is correct. These will be different tags. So yes, don't cause misunderstandings on the forum! 😜

There is so much to unpack here. It's good to be an archery hunter in the state of Utah, that's for sure.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I guess it's time for EVERYONE to pick up a bow and start benefiting from those perks this minority of hunters in this state have been able to fenagle.

On top of that, who wants to bet that this goes through the entire public process and the WB does something totally different, screwing a ton of people over in the process? Any takers?


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> I guess it's time for EVERYONE to pick up a bow and start benefiting from those perks this minority of hunters in this state have been able to fenagle.
> 
> On top of that, who wants to bet that this goes through the entire public process and the WB does something totally different, screwing a ton of people over in the process? Any takers?


Honestly I think not being able to take a cow elk on a GS elk tag is going to turn off a lot of current and future archery hunters. A guy (prospective hunter) I work with was asking me about bow hunting for cow elk just a few weeks ago, that won't be an option now. I think it makes the archery tag much less desirable for more casual hunters.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Airborne said:


> page 22 section A. a. ii
> _General season archery antlerless elk permits with seasons coinciding with general season archery bull elk hunts in August and September on any bull and spike units that are at or exceeding objective, or as specified by the Utah Wildlife Board_
> 
> Hunters will still be able to hunt cow elk OTC archery but it will be limited to units that are exceeding objective. This isn't that big of a deal--they have done this in the past limiting certain units to spike only like the bookcliffs and Monroe in years past
> ...


I never made a statement, I literally just copied and pasted information directly from the PDF. You can spin it any direction you want, it’s a change that’ll impact archery hunters


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

To address the tsunami of people buying Anybull tags OTC- which was crashing the system, causing problems and brought the idea of putting the general season elk permits in the draw- it is recommended to give less permits OTC (capping the multi-season, cutting first season tags) which will add to the frantic run on the system. Most people will want to buy the first season or multi-season permit- just increasing demand on the system.

I'm not a fan of cutting hunter opportunity thru days afield by splitting the any bull elk hunt into 2 seasons. Only one weekend is rough.

I do like lowering the high-end age objective, bull only archery, and antlerless tags good only for the season dates.

5 day LE early hunt seems harsh.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Ray said:


> I never made a statement, I literally just copied and pasted information directly from the PDF. You can spin it any direction you want, it’s a change that’ll impact archery hunters


Don't take what I said as being critical of what you posted, that was not my intention, I'm honestly not trying to be preachy here but it probably came off that way as . Looks like there is some contradicting information regarding OTC archery cow elk info as pointed out.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Airborne said:


> Don't take what I said as being critical of what you posted, that was not my intention, I'm honestly not trying to be preachy here but it probably came off that way as . Looks like there is some contradicting information regarding OTC archery cow elk info as pointed out.


Gotcha. There’s definitely a lot of information to sift through, will be interesting to see how everything pans out


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Packout said:


> 5 day LE early hunt seems harsh.


It should be 3 days.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

TPrawitt91 said:


> Get some popcorn is right! Some pretty interesting ideas in there. Who is putting in for the LE December Archery hunt lol?!?


I would if I wasn’t on a wait period


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

MooseMeat said:


> It should be 3 days.


Agreed. Shouldn't have that hunt where it is anyway


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

MooseMeat said:


> I would if I wasn’t on a wait period


How many points do we think those will average? Less than an early archery LE tag, or more? I could definitely see people being interested in that hunt.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

I know a few guys who have it dialed in and kill a cow every year with archery. If I know a few there must be thousands of hunters across the state that consistently kill cow elk on the archery every year.

I am also sure plenty of people hunting cow elk with archery are unsuccessful.

So I think this is a good idea to separate the cow tags because rifle hunters and others have to wait years now for an opportunity to kill a cow elk.

Like others have said, it might help point creep and also make the regular archery more fun if it gets rid of some of the crowds.


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## Isuckathunting (Sep 15, 2019)

Just a couple general off the cuff thoughts. Dual seasons for any bull tags is an interesting idea. I found the little bit about offering spring archery antlerless tags through a draw interesting. It is on pg 82 of the packet - "_We will also recommend a general-season archery antlerless elk hunt in the spring of 2023. The intent of this recommendation is to address point creep for antlerless elk and to provide a new opportunity for archery elk hunters that will help increase the harvest of antlerless elk."_
As for picking up one of those late season archery tags, I would not put in for that but if someone wanted to use their points on it, I wouldn't be mad! Adding more mid hunts pressures the elk more but it would most certainly move people through the system quicker and put a band aid on point creep for a couple years. Overall, I like that there are some out of the box ideas that give more LE options.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Capping multi season tags will probably move the archery numbers more than going bull only. I guess we will see.
Having cow tags run concurrently with other season tags was an attempt to get the cow harvest where it needed to be. It wasn't happening with just a dedicated season for cows. Maybe they think it will change now? Maybe without penalizing private land tags with loss of preference point maybe they can get the elk moving back and forth more.

All in allI don't have any major problems with the reomendations.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

So a lot of folks have been complaining about the rifle rut hunt for years and years. Looks like with this recommendation that a lot of those rifle rut tags may be moved to the mid season--I'm not entirely opposed. Last year on the Manti the rifle rut hunt had 28% of tags so this is a significant move if it holds true for all units.

_v. On traditional limited entry units recommend permits for the 3 weapon types based on the following percentages: 25% for archery, 15% for muzzleloader, and *60% for any legal weapon*. 

*(a) If a unit has all 3 any weapon season, permits should be recommended as 10% for the early any weapon season, 30% for the mid any weapon season, 17% for the late any weapon season and 3% multi-season. *

(b) Adjustments may be made for units that cannot accommodate all 3 any weapon seasons. For example on a unit without a late any weapon hunt, permits may be recommended as 20% early any weapon, 37% mid any weapon, and 3% multi-season. 

(c) If shifting allocation of permits to more challenging seasons reduces the unit average harvest age, biologists may adjust the average age to put more weight on seasons where harvest tends to be more selective and most likely to represent true availability of bulls._


Still the majority of tags go rifle (60%) so Ole Niller' can't complain too much about archery getting it all! 

If this proposal goes through I can see the points required for early rifle to skyrocket and the mid season to drop and be a bargain. A lot of folks will be willing to sit on the sidelines waiting for the rifle rut hunt while folks that want to hunt will be able to do so more easily--I could be wrong

Makes it more interesting on where I should spend my 17 elk points next year


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I hope a typo on the spring elk hunt. Animals don't need to be chased in the spring after a hard winter. plus the calf will be pretty developed too. They are always telling us not to harass the wildlife in the spring


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Brookie said:


> I hope a typo on the spring elk hunt. Animals don't need to be chased in the spring after a hard winter. plus the calf will be pretty developed too. They are always telling us not to harass the wildlife in the spring


Doubt it, put this one in the "opportunity" column. I doubt they care about the calf on units where they are actively trying to reduce cow numbers. Personally, not trying to field dress a pregnant cow that far along, so I get what you are saying.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Brookie said:


> I hope a typo on the spring elk hunt. Animals don't need to be chased in the spring after a hard winter. plus the calf will be pretty developed too. They are always telling us not to harass the wildlife in the spring


I believe they mean that archers will apply for fall archery only cow hunts during the spring application period for all antlerless hunts. Again--I could be wrong but I highly doubt they will let archers hunt pregnant spring cows--just trying to use common sense here but the DWR has eclipsed common sense in the past so who knows!


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

I read it again, the phrasing is a little unclear. But I am now reading this as, "In the spring, we will recommend a new GS archery antlerless elk hunt." At least I hope that's what they mean.


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## turkinator (May 25, 2008)

Does anyone know how the tags are currently split between each season? What percentage goes to each season?


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

turkinator said:


> Does anyone know how the tags are currently split between each season? What percentage goes to each season?


Is this what you are referring to?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Turkinator, look at post #28 above for splits.

I agree the intent of the statement was that they’d be proposing the antlerless hunts in the spring, but only because a spring elk hunt is completely asinine and I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. It certainly isn’t worded very well if that is the case, but a spring elk hunt is so crazy I’ll just chalk it up to lack of clarity.

I don’t see the early LE rifle hunt odds skyrocketing. They are already very hard to draw, and dropping them to 5 days would dissuade some people.

Whatever happens, I believe there will be very little to no noticeable change in point creep or the health of our elk herds on LE units. The best change they’re doing for hunter management is dropping those age objectives. That will put more people through the system, but it’s not going to fix our problems. Archers will still be belly-aching for more tags and more opportunity even after all this.

So pretty much status quo. We’ll make changes just for the sake of changing, then do it all again in 3 years (before it’s called to do it in the elk plan) like normal, only to have the same people belly aching about the same stuff. Round and round we go!


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

With the cow elk archery bit, it sounds to me like they’re really just trying to increase revenue, more than anything. Why charge for one tag when you can charge for two? It will literally double the money generated.

Only difference is, now you can kill two animals, which is nice I suppose


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Brookie said:


> I hope a typo on the spring elk hunt. Animals don't need to be chased in the spring after a hard winter. plus the calf will be pretty developed too. They are always telling us not to harass the wildlife in the spring


Guys, come on. Don’t over think this. When do antlerless recommendations come out? In the spring. After they’ve assessed post hunting numbers and winter impacts. In no way are they going to shoot cow elk in February or March. They are simply saying they are taking a new route on antlerless management and they will announce the details in the spring


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I think it's pretty clear they're removing the antlerless elk harvesting from the GS archery bull tag and creating a separate antlerless archery tag that will be announced in the spring. Not happen in the spring. I think (maybe) they're going to place these antlerless hunts strategically to mitigate elk migration to private land. And make more money if course.


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## flyfisher20 (Aug 5, 2011)

Here is a link for those like me that want to see the proposed changes in an easier to read format
DWR proposes new statewide elk management plan, changes to elk hunting


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Do archery pressure actually move elk to private. I thought they headed that direction when shooting of guns happened.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Spring caribou hunts are a riot! I would be all for a spring antlerless elk hunt, (gotta love the bonus veal!) but yeah...the way I read it, they mean that in the spring they are going to propose some antlerless hunt changes. Dagnabit.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

flyfisher20 said:


> Here is a link for those like me that want to see the proposed changes in an easier to read format
> DWR proposes new statewide elk management plan, changes to elk hunting


The link also talks about the technology committee weapon restrictions recommendations. So my understanding is that the committee set up definitions for 'Restricted' weapons and the board/DWR may decide to use these restricted weapon definitions for future hunts? Seems kinda dumb to set up a definition for weapons that aren't really applied to any hunts yet nor are part of this new elk plan. These definitions may not be applicable to any hunts in the future--who knows? The DWR messaging team needs to do a better job with this stuff, because this is my best guess.


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

I see some major bellyaching coming from the bow hunters. The dedicated archers I know, the guys that bow hunt every year, they kill plenty of cows. A few of them I know have never killed a bull or a spike but bring home cows or calves almost yearly.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

one4fishing said:


> I see some major bellyaching coming from the bow hunters. The dedicated archers I know, the guys that bow hunt every year, they kill plenty of cows. A few of them I know have never killed a bull or a spike but bring home cows or calves almost yearly.


This is in an effort to reduce the recent archery hunt popularity. While not shooting cows any more kinda sucks, i think it’ll be a good way to keep the kool bois away from picking up a bow every year now that it’s convenient


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Looks like the little snot nosed rugrats are being catered to again. Wish I was 16 again. To bad for the kid when the parent doesn't draw a tag and the kid won't get to go hunting

I like the restriction to *BULL ONLY* on the archery hunts. I'm sure a few archers will be jumping into the fiasco of attempting to get a rifle tag.


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

Personally, I love the opportunity of the OTC elk hunters choice tag. I buy the archery elk tag thinking of it more as a cow tag with an opportunity to take a bull if I see one. If I can still buy an OTC antlerless tag I would’ve fine with the change. If I have to apply and play the points game for an archery antlerless elk I will be disappointed. There is not a better opportunity hunt out there than the current OTC archery elk tag. If it goes to bull only with draw for antlerless I will really miss it. It has been a great hunt archery hunt with my kids that provides a much greater chance of encounters with a chance to harvest. Am I being a bit selfish, to not want those to go away, sure. I will reserve my full judgement till I better understand what they are doing with the antlerless tags. Given that they state they will adress that in the spring sure makes it seem like they are talking about a draw.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

I do appreciate the ability to take any elk in the bull areas with archery. Maybe they'll keep the extra opportunity for those with a stick bow. If that were the case I'd hunt a lot more with the recurve.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

Airborne said:


> The link also talks about the technology committee weapon restrictions recommendations. So my understanding is that the committee set up definitions for 'Restricted' weapons and the board/DWR may decide to use these restricted weapon definitions for future hunts? Seems kinda dumb to set up a definition for weapons that aren't really applied to any hunts yet nor are part of this new elk plan. These definitions may not be applicable to any hunts in the future--who knows? The DWR messaging team needs to do a better job with this stuff, because this is my best guess.


I don't know for sure, but my assumption is those definitions will apply to the HAMS hunts.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Dahlmer said:


> I don't know for sure, but my assumption is those definitions will apply to the HAMS hunts.


That’s how I read it also


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Dahlmer said:


> I don't know for sure, but my assumption is those definitions will apply to the HAMS hunts.


they list open sight rifles as one of the restricted weapons, I doubt they are including rifle hunts on HAMS, otherwise the acronym doesn’t work. Like I said, DWR messaging needs to clarify some of this stuff


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Airborne said:


> they list open sight rifles as one of the restricted weapons, I doubt they are including rifle hunts on HAMS, otherwise the acronym doesn’t work. Like I said, DWR messaging needs to clarify some of this stuff


They are setting up the definition of restricted for possible future opportunity hunts. These new restricted definitions won’t apply to the ‘normal’ weapon type hunts we have now


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Guess we'll just have to wait and see what the final decisions will be. Could be very interesting Changes have to be made either way to try and benefit as many hunters that are coming into the scene.

The HABITAT is what kills me! They're mulling over ways to protect the animals at vulnerable times, but they are missing the #1 reason for habitat loss and seem to bury their heads in the sand. I believe they need to deal with Urban Sprawl and eliminate homes being built in the winter range. A little too late now to do something I think. The damage is done.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

They are making the bow switch to bull only so they can manage how many cows are killed. Everyone here has said they think of it as a cow hunt. You can't kill all the cows and expect them not to change it. Plus they are making it a draw for anterless elk. So you'll have to buy the over the counter bull archery and then draw the cow tags. Extra money for DWR. Odds of drawing anterless cow elk will be high


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## PHall (Oct 12, 2013)

There will be an OTC Cow Archery tag available that functions the same as it currently does with regards to cow harvest per our discussion on the committee. You will forfeit antlerless points if you buy it. There may be unit restrictions given population issues.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

PHall said:


> There will be an OTC Cow Archery tag available that functions the same as it currently does with regards to cow harvest per our discussion on the committee. You will forfeit antlerless points if you buy it. There may be unit restrictions given population issues.


So OTC, but how many permits? I'd guess only offered on over objective units? If they are capping the permits I can't see how it won't end up in a draw.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I bet they go per draw--the DWR already says they will be moved to the spring time antlerless draw timeframe, how could they not be in the draw? Also the DWR will make that extra $10 app fee


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

one4fishing said:


> I see some major bellyaching coming from the bow hunters.


That never happens!!!! 🙄


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> That never happens!!!! 🙄


A lot of guys are going to complain, I'm not one. I actually like the idea of getting a bunch of folks out of the GS archery season. I'm up for the challenge of bulls only, it's my goal each season to kill my first one anyway. Just reducing the competition is how I see it. 

I, like many others, started bowhunting because of the extra opportunities and the hunters choice elk tag. Even took a cow a few years back. But not being able to harvest cows doesn't change my goals. I would argue that the average hunter has a better chance of killing an elk on the rifle hunt if they can't shoot a cow on the archery hunt any longer. I'd bet we'll see quite a few bows on KSL classifieds here soon.


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## elkhunterUT (Jan 21, 2008)

TPrawitt91 said:


> A lot of guys are going to complain, I'm not one. I actually like the idea of getting a bunch of folks out of the GS archery season. I'm up for the challenge of bulls only, it's my goal each season to kill my first one anyway. Just reducing the competition is how I see it.
> 
> I, like many others, started bowhunting because of the extra opportunities and the hunters choice elk tag. Even took a cow a few years back. But not being able to harvest cows doesn't change my goals. I would argue that the average hunter has a better chance of killing an elk on the rifle hunt if they can't shoot a cow on the archery hunt any longer. I'd bet we'll see quite a few bows on KSL classifieds here soon.


I sure hope so! I am not complaining either


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I really like the hunters choice archery tag. I don't think if it as a cow tag. I think of it as a bull tag that allows me to harvest easily harvest a cow in my bulk area in the event I'm desperate for meat or in the extended season area if I need meat and can't locate a bull. 

I also like it for the new hunter option, such as my wife, who did her first archery hunt ever a couple years ago. She could have shot a cow, but didn't. 

As long as antlerless tags for archery are easily available and can be purchased along with a bull tag, then I have no issues I guess. My yearly tag fee will increase by $50-60. If they make it an OTC tag but also make the purchaser forfeit their antlerless points, well that seems like a bum deal because I'd like to build those points for an occasional rifle antlerless hunt. 

Anyway, yes hopefully it will decrease the archery crowding. It unfortunately won't remove the A-hole that rides his ATV illegally through a prime feeding area where I hunt to make his walk to his tree stand shorter.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

Airborne said:


> they list open sight rifles as one of the restricted weapons, I doubt they are including rifle hunts on HAMS, otherwise the acronym doesn’t work. Like I said, DWR messaging needs to clarify some of this stuff


Just change it to HARMS


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## Amy (Jan 22, 2009)

Yeah, we realize that the restricted weapons information was not as clear as it should have been, and we're sorry for any frustration it's caused. We've issued a clarification that will hopefully help:

This proposed change would create new definitions for restricted weapons and modify existing HAMS hunt weapons definitions. If this recommendation passes, this would allow the Division to create new restricted weapon hunts in addition to the archery, muzzleloader and rifle hunt types currently allowed for in rule. This recommendation *will not* discontinue the current hunt types but would be in addition to them.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Amy said:


> Yeah, we realize that the restricted weapons information was not as clear as it should have been, and we're sorry for any frustration it's caused. We've issued a clarification that will hopefully help:
> 
> This proposed change would create new definitions for restricted weapons and modify existing HAMS hunt weapons definitions. If this recommendation passes, this would allow the Division to create new restricted weapon hunts in addition to the archery, muzzleloader and rifle hunt types currently allowed for in rule. This recommendation *will not* discontinue the current hunt types but would be in addition to them.


Thanks Amy!! Quick question, what type of new "restricted weapon hunts" are we talking about here? 

I could totally see some Utards going hardcore with a spear or atlatl. #coreaf


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## Isuckathunting (Sep 15, 2019)

CPAjeff said:


> Thanks Amy!! Quick question, what type of new "restricted weapon hunts" are we talking about here?
> 
> I could totally see some Utards going hardcore with a spear or atlatl. #coreaf


Can't wait for the new hushin videos to drop on that.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

100 yard spear shot! 

#expoparty #expohunts #aintnopartylikeanexpoparty #expowprkouts #fuel #spearlife #extremespear #deathsprearheads #vloglife #live2hunt #flattys #firebull


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

My uncle Jim used to guide cougar hunts back in the 80's. ( He passed away of cancer in 89).
One of his clients was Roy Rogers and his son.
Anyway ......
One of his clients towards the end wanted to kill his Kitty with a spear. Jim figured he paid the money, so what the heck.
The guy actually did it, and Jim videoed it with one of the early recorders. Was quite a show.
Was a bit of a chase, but it was successful.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I’m thinking some Utard Insta-famous hunter will try and give Tim Wells a run for his money …


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

BGD said:


> If I have to apply and play the points game for an archery antlerless elk I will be disappointed.


How do you think rifle and muzzy hunters feel when they have to wait 3 to 5 years for a cow tag but archery guys keep bragging about killing a cow every year with an OTC tag?

Why should the archery guys get such better opportunities compared to other hunters?

If its just about oppurtunity than it shouldn't matter because you would still get a bull tag and opportunity to harvest every year.




What's funny for me is as soon as I decide to start taking advantage of the laws, rules, and regs so I can hunt more and have better success rates the state proposes these changes.

For example I have been researching my first compound bow because I decided I wanted to have an oppurtunity on a cow elk on a LE unit every year. And now the state is discussing these changes.

I also decided to buy a new high end muzzle loader this next spring, dial it in too 300 yards, and start doing dedicated hunter along with applying for muzzle loader GS deer and elk hunts.

But of course when I finally decide that if I can't beat them I better join them the state gets involved lol.


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

ns450f said:


> How do you think rifle and muzzy hunters feel when they have to wait 3 to 5 years for a cow tag but archery guys keep bragging about killing a cow every year with an OTC tag?


I know how they feel because I have been one of them. I have chased opportunity across different weapon options and have limitations that do impact how hard I go at archery (70% lung function at 10,000 feet is not optimum). The antlerless OTC was a last good opportunity for me to know I could have a tag every year, if all my other draw options didn’t pan out - which they often don’t. I get I can still go after a bull but honestly, I like the higher likelihood of success of the bull or cow. I love hunting but have many things competing for my time (a business, 5 kids ages 11-18, etc.) so realistically can’t spend weeks hunting. Also, archery is certainly no slam dunk harvest, at least for me. Admittedly some of my feelings are selfish. I just hate to see us losing opportunity.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

ns450f said:


> Why should the archery guys get such better opportunities compared to other hunters?


The only guys who think archers get better “opportunities” are the guys who haven’t had much, if any at all, archery hunting experience for themselves. At the end of the day, archers are still using a stick, string and body strength to shoot the arrow. Not stored energy, released with explosives, launching metal projectiles from devices designed for repetitive accuracy. Archers also have the worst dates and have the shortest range capable weapon in their hands…

no one is coming after your scoped muzzleloader right now. You can relax on that topic.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I’m guilty of picking up a bow in the recent years because of the potential of more opportunities. I like to hunt. I don’t care if it’s deer with a bow, or elk with a rifle, I like to try and kill stuff.

Eluding to what @MooseMeat said above, it’s still a stick, flipped from another stick. I had numerous close calls with elk during the archery season that I just couldn’t seal the deal on. It was extremely frustrating, but so much fun!

No one likes change, but it’s inevitable.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

PHall said:


> There may be unit restrictions given population issues.


I understand the need to further complicate the regs but honestly there are way too many people functioning at a remedial level of regulations comprehension. The real question is how can you help them understand. Would a tag specific email help people? It's obvious the proclamation is not well understood. I've seen too many examples to count but the most recent were new hunters.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Don’t conflate the issue when people say “opportunities.” Nobody has claimed killing an animal with a bow is easy. Nobody.

But if you’re going to sit here and say archery hunters aren’t getting much more opportunity these days, especially considered to hunters that utilize other types of weapons, you’re lying.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

APD said:


> I understand the need to further complicate the regs but honestly there are way too many people functioning at a remedial level of regulations comprehension. The real question is how can you help them understand. Would a tag specific email help people? It's obvious the proclamation is not well understood. I've seen too many examples to count but the most recent were new hunters.


A ticket costing them money when they can’t even read a guidebook will smarten them up.
Why ‘dumb down’ people?


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

MrShane said:


> A ticket costing them money when they can’t even read a guidebook will smarten them up.
> Why ‘dumb down’ people?


I'd agree. The problem is if you set out to poach an animal every year you'd probably make it a dozen years before a "ticket" found you. These people are clueless and will probably make it at least 5 years before they learn the ropes or get contacted by dwr.


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

Vanilla said:


> Don’t conflate the issue when people say “opportunities.” Nobody has claimed killing an animal with a bow is easy. Nobody.
> 
> But if you’re going to sit here and say archery hunters aren’t getting much more opportunity these days, especially considered to hunters that utilize other types of weapons, you’re lying.


I guess I don’t look at it as catering to one weapon choice or another. Over the years I have primarily been a rifle hunter. I hunted archery a bit as a kid because growing up in idaho you could hunt whatever weapon season was open until you filled your tag. As I got older, it was harder to get out as much. But, over time I went where the opportunities were and still do and I don’t love the change. Hunting regs in utah have been a mess for years. I get that that there are many pressures and things can’t stay the same forever. But I slowly see what has been a way of life for me slowly slipping away. Change is hard and the way wildlife decisions are made in utah only make it that much more difficult for me to swallow.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Archery gets more opportunities, admittedly, because success rates are so much lower than rifle or muzzy. Those opportunities are afforded due to the lower success rates. I don’t see this as hard to understand, yet people continue to complain. If you are a rifle or muzzy hunter, your problem is that you are a more efficient killer plain and simple.

And this coming from a guy who hasn’t archery hunted in over a dozen years!!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

BGD said:


> *But I slowly see what has been a way of life for me slowly slipping away. * Change is hard and the way wildlife decisions are made in utah only make it that much more difficult for me to swallow.


This is the issue. You've nailed it. We continually change the system and make adjustments to manage hunters, and none of it helps the game and it only benefits certain people, kind of screwing everyone else in the process. All so we can change and placate a small group of people that will never be satisfied. It is so stupid! But...you're right. Something that is a way of life is slowly being chipped away at, and we are doing it to ourselves. It's not even antis. Kind of sad when you think about it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> I don’t see this as hard to understand, yet people continue to complain.


It's funny, because from my perspective, I see a bunch of archery hunters (a small minority, but a very LOUD minority) saying they don't get extra opportunities and demanding more. It will never be enough for them and they continue to complain. Odd that I see the exact same thing you are seeing, just from a different perspective. 

Never once have I proposed cutting a hunting opportunity from an archery hunter, or from any hunter for that matter. There sure are a lot of archery folk out there clamoring to take away hunting opportunities from me, though. So yes, I'll complain about that. Every time.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I have already started my spear build. Carbon nanotube shaft, single bevel head with a tungsten shaft insert to get that FOC up to 25%. Effective range should be 125-140, without practicing.

It should help jumpstart my social media influencer career.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

rtockstein said:


> I have already started my spear build. Carbon nanotube shaft, single bevel head with a tungsten shaft insert to get that FOC up to 25%. Effective range should be 125-140, without practicing.


Of course I'm going to get a doctor's note so I can use a cross-spear.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

400fps spear. Lookout


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

MooseMeat said:


> Not stored energy, released with explosives, launching metal projectiles from devices designed for repetitive accuracy


A compound bow is definitely designed to launch a metal tipped projectile with repetitive accuracy.

Unless your talking traditional recurves and long bows modern archery equipment is a lot more than a stick, string, and body strength 🤣 

Modern compound bows use mechanics to increase the ability of the user and store energy. Compounds have triggers, range finders, laser sights, and all kinds of other tech. 

In my opinion a modern bow is more similar to a rifle than a traditional bow.

And a yearly over the counter tag and oppurtunity to harvest a cow elk is 100% more oppurtunity than a rifle hunter gets for cow elk. 

Harvest success is a different story but I figure a rifle hunters harvests a cow elk once every 3 or 4 years while lots of archery guys harvest a cow elk every 1 or 2 years.


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## elkhunterUT (Jan 21, 2008)

ns450f said:


> A compound bow is definitely designed to launch a metal tipped projectile with repetitive accuracy.
> 
> Unless your talking traditional recurves and long bows modern archery equipment is a lot more than a stick, string, and body strength 🤣
> 
> ...


Seems like you and Vanilla are crying "unfairness" - how is it unfair when NO ONE is stopping you from taking advantage of the extra opportunities afforded to bowhunters? Pick up a bow and get after it!!


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## flyfisher20 (Aug 5, 2011)

ns450f said:


> Modern compound bows use mechanics to increase the ability of the user and store energy. Compounds have triggers, range finders, laser sights, and all kinds of other tech.
> 
> In my opinion a modern bow is more similar to a rifle than a traditional bow.


While I'll agree that modern compound bows have drastically changed archery hunting, to say that they are more comparable to a rifle is just laughable.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

elkhunterUT said:


> Seems like you and Vanilla are crying "unfairness"


You’ve never heard me cry “unfair.” Life isn’t fair, I don’t expect this system to be fair. That’s a total fallacy, so good try! We shouldn’t actively try to screw people over in life, because that just makes one a bad person. But this notion of “fair” is stupid. What most people consider “fair” is just them getting their own way. 




elkhunterUT said:


> Pick up a bow and get after it!!


There it is! I sincerely hope you get what you ask for here. Everyone totally should do just this. 

At least you’re acknowledging the “extra opportunities.” Just don’t ask for more to the detriment of others and we are fine.


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## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

MooseMeat said:


> have the shortest range capable weapon in their hands…


Excellent point. I don't claim to be a great hunter, but for me to get within 60 yards of animal is challenging. I fail way more than I succeed.


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## elkhunterUT (Jan 21, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> You’ve never heard me cry “unfair.” Life isn’t fair, I don’t expect this system to be fair. That’s a total fallacy, so good try! We shouldn’t actively try to screw people over in life, because that just makes one a bad person. But this notion of “fair” is stupid. What most people consider “fair” is just them getting their own way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You and I already know everyone won't do it, because the majority will always want the path of least resistance. I am a hunter, plain and simple, so I am not asking anything to the detriment of others and never have. I truly believe the opportunities afforded to bowhunters are actually what is best for the entire picture (hunters, animals, etc.), so I will always push for that and will definitely take advantage of those opportunities. It provides a win-win in increased opportunity with least impact on the herd. I don't know what others motives are, but those are mine.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Remember when I said a few months ago that it’ll pay off to be a bowhunter in the future in this state? Called it! 😂


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

ns450f said:


> In my opinion a modern bow is more similar to a rifle than a traditional bow.


Similar to a rifle…. 🤣🤣 try bowhunting some time and get back to me on that.


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## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

I had no idea how many people actually want to kill a cow with a bow. They should give them the entire month of august and get them the hell out of the woods when the bugles start!


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

MooseMeat said:


> Similar to a rifle…. 🤣🤣 try bowhunting some time and get back to me on that.


Yep

This is a real bow but I don't remember the last time I saw an archery hunter using one.









In my opinion this contraption has more in common with a rifle and this is the only kind of contraption I have ever seen an "archery hunter" using.










Go kill a big game animal with real fletching, 2 sticks, and 1 string than I will be impressed. No sights, range finders, triggers, or other fancy crap.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

ns450f said:


> Yep
> 
> This is a real bow but I don't remember the last time I saw an archery hunter using one.
> View attachment 154097
> ...


You must not get out much, I see traditional hunters all the time…

i have killed several big game animals with a traditional style set up. It takes a little more work to learn the instinctive style of shooting, but anyone can do it.

It’s not the bow, it’s the Indian.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Is a compound more advanced than a regular recurve or long bow? Sure. But to equate it to a rifle? Now that's a bit of a sssssssstreeeeeeettttttttcccccccchhhhhhhh!! 🙄


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

MWScott72 said:


> Is a compound more advanced than a regular recurve or long bow? Sure. But to equate it to a rifle? Now that's a bit of a sssssssstreeeeeeettttttttcccccccchhhhhhhh!! 🙄


Ok, I'll try a stretch...
it's kind of like a heavy rifle with a stock that doesn't fit you and a scope with really loose rings. It also shoots ammo that's 2 calibers below bore size.I'm


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

@Packout 

so I’m watching the central RAC right now, the elk plan discussion in particular, and im left with more questions than answers… the biggest one being, with the archery cow hunt, are they implying these separate tags are an OTC opportunity that takes your antlerless points when purchased? Or are they going to be draw tags? The way it’s being discussed is it’s an “addition to..” your spike or any bull tag. Is that correct or am i just wishful thinking?


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## deerlevi (Oct 10, 2021)

MooseMeat said:


> @Packout
> 
> so I’m watching the central RAC right now, the elk plan discussion in particular, and im left with more questions than answers… the biggest one being, with the archery cow hunt, are they implying these separate tags are an OTC opportunity that takes your antlerless points when purchased? Or are they going to be draw tags? The way it’s being discussed is it’s an “addition to..” your spike or any bull tag. Is that correct or am i just wishful thinking?


They will be otc but take antlerless points when purchased.You could have an archery bull tag and an archery cow tag at the same time.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

deerlevi said:


> They will be otc but take antlerless points when purchased.You could have an archery bull tag and an archery cow tag at the same time.


HE!! Yeah! 😎🤟🏼


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Does it make sense to let archery hunters kill a bull elk and a cow elk with the proposed otc elk tags? This is twice as many elk possibly killed by archery hunters than the previous plan. Archery hunters like moosemeat will kill 2 for sure with Archery equipment every year. Especially if they move the general Archery elk hunt 4 days later into September. This will not help point creep. These bow hunters where already killing cows with Archery equipment. Plus there won't be extra tags for the draws cause cows are being killed otc by archers.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Brookie said:


> Does it make sense to let archery hunters kill a bull elk and a cow elk with the proposed otc elk tags? This is twice as many elk possibly killed by archery hunters than the previous plan. Archery hunters like moosemeat will kill 2 for sure with Archery equipment every year. Especially if they move the general Archery elk hunt 4 days later into September. This will not help point creep. These bow hunters where already killing cows with Archery equipment. Plus there won't be extra tags for the draws cause cows are being killed otc by archers.


To be honest, I’m not a fan of being allowed 2 tags. I think they should keep the archery hunt hunters choice. If addressing point creep really is a priority, anyone who buys a general archery or multi season elk tag should have to forfeit their antlerless points. If you buy a single season ALW or muzzleloader tag that is only valid for bulls, you don’t lose your points. Right there you’d knock whatever the cap is for multi tags out of the draw every year. It would definitely make dudes think twice about buying a multi tag just for the fun of it, not really intending to actually go on the hunt, but rather just have another tag in their pocket just in case…. But I suppose if they went that route, they’d have to allow you to choose up to 3 seasons and pay for each separate season you want your tag is valid for. It could get messy that way. I dunno what the right answer is, but what’s being proposed will get out of hand I’m afraid.

however, if they want to allow me to shoot a cow on the archery and then hunt for a spike for the remainder of the next 2 month season my multi tag is valid for, I wont complain.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Right now, you can kill up to 3 elk per year. If they allow archers to buy a bull and a cow tag, I don't see it really impacting the current dynamic...other than the DWR doubles their money on the archery hunt. Takes money to operate, so I don't see 2 tags for 2 fees unfair. Will some folks kill 2 elk on archery more often? Sure, but they are a small minority and with overall archery success rates what they are, it won't greatly impact overall success rates on that hunt.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

MWScott72 said:


> Right now, you can kill up to 3 elk per year. If they allow archers to buy a bull and a cow tag, I don't see it really impacting the current dynamic...other than the DWR doubles their money on the archery hunt. Takes money to operate, so I don't see 2 tags for 2 fees unfair. Will some folks kill 2 elk on archery more often? Sure, but they are a small minority and with overall archery success rates what they are, it won't greatly impact overall success rates on that hunt.


My thoughts exactly, you can already get 3 rifle elk tags each year. Archery has the lowest success rate and the proposed changes aren't likely to significantly increase harvest. Just $$$ for the DWR lol


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MWScott72 said:


> Right now, you can kill up to 3 elk per year. If they allow archers to buy a bull and a cow tag, I don't see it really impacting the current dynamic...other than the DWR doubles their money on the archery hunt. Takes money to operate, so I don't see 2 tags for 2 fees unfair. Will some folks kill 2 elk on archery more often? Sure, but they are a small minority and with overall archery success rates what they are, it won't greatly impact overall success rates on that hunt.


Could I buy 2 archery antlerless tags and potentially shoot 3 elk on the bow hunt?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

I really wish the division would have provided more detail rather than simply stating that they would recommend archery cow tags during the spring RAC. How will those tags work? Unit by unit, limited quotas, draw basis? OTC statewide? They could take some different forms.

If they are in the draw and have quotas by unit, theoretically someone could draw one, pick up a leftover and have two cow tags and a bull tag.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I had a friend who jumped for joy here in Colorado when they came out and said that a person could hold up to 6 elk tags. He went to work and shot 4 elk and threw the other two tags away. That was 25 or so years ago. Now if you work it right you can hold a unlimited number of elk tags with 99% of them being from private lands but very few hunters pick up more than two or three.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

MooseMeat said:


> Could I buy 2 archery antlerless tags and potentially shoot 3 elk on the bow hunt?


If one was an antlerless elk control tag I think you could pull this off


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Clarq said:


> I really wish the division would have provided more detail rather than simply stating that they would recommend archery cow tags during the spring RAC. How will those tags work? Unit by unit, limited quotas, draw basis? OTC statewide? They could take some different forms.
> 
> If they are in the draw and have quotas by unit, theoretically someone could draw one, pick up a leftover and have two cow tags and a bull tag.


Well they do have to discuss and finalize any of these recommendations, so that part is still in the works.


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