# Broad heads?



## ogdenbayduckslayer (Oct 8, 2009)

Just curious what everyone likes? I lost a deer over the weekend shooting a 125 muzzy and just wondering what everyone out there likes. I think i might try them slip cam rage 100? what u think anyone shot anything with them? It does say recover your game or your money back on the package :lol:


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

Was the shot a good one?


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Any broad head will kill an animal if you have proper shot placement.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

ogdenbayduckslayer said:


> Just curious what everyone likes? I lost a deer over the weekend shooting a 125 muzzy and just wondering what everyone out there likes. I think i might try them slip cam rage 100? what u think anyone shot anything with them? It does say recover your game or your money back on the package :lol:


I have heard from pretty reliable sources in the industry (I talk to these dealers and reps all day long) that the new Rage are not the old Rage. The new ones just aren't as reliable as the old ones where you knew you were going to get massive blood trails, lots of dead animals and just carnage creating shots. I've heard all sorts of horror stories about them opening in flight, just bad stuff happening because its not as high quality a product as it used to be for some reason. I was actually kicking around the idea of using them because a couple years ago, there was a guy here who swore by Rage. I also heard another horror story this morning about another expandable head kicked around a lot on here.... put me down for not ever wanting to use expandables at this point. :?


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

jahan said:


> Any broad head will kill an animal if you have proper shot placement.


I'm sure this is probably true, eventually... doesn't mean you will recover the animal though, guaranteed. Ten yard double lung shots should tip a cow elk over in short order, right? Apparently not when you're using an expandable that doesn't work properly. Couldn't believe what I was reading when I got the text today, but needless to say, I won't be turning in my fixed blade broadheads any time soon. :|


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > Any broad head will kill an animal if you have proper shot placement.
> ...


So quick question, how do you know it was a double lunger? Were they able to recover the animal? I just am skeptical of everyone saying I did a double lunger and the animal didn't go down or I couldn't find it, in fact I will call bull **** on it of course unless they recovered it and actually visually saw after gutting the animal holes through both lungs. Every year there are people who say they made the perfect shot, but the animal somehow got away.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

jahan said:


> So quick question, how do you know it was a double lunger? Were they able to recover the animal? I just am skeptical of everyone saying I did a double lunger and the animal didn't go down or I couldn't find it, in fact I will call bull **** on it of course unless they recovered it and actually visually saw after gutting the animal holes through both lungs. Every year there are people who say they made the perfect shot, but the animal somehow got away.


Guy is a respected member here who has killed a few animals before... I'm positive he knows exactly what he was looking at. Also... from ten yards? Give me a break, that is basically point blank range and any broadhead worth a **** should do the trick. He was also with an older guy who is an experienced bowhunter as well who saw the same thing as well as the shot.... it wasn't like he was off on his own cookin up stories. Doesn't matter if it shoots like a field point if it won't open and won't do the job it was trusted to do. Call BS if you will but its his story, he can tell the intimate details if he wants. I'm sure the people that need to know what happened will hear from him. Just got a text though, it was enough for him to go to a backup bow and fixed blades. :? Good call as far as I'm concerned. If he was able to recover the animal, I doubt he'd be nearly as disappointed about the performance of an unreliable product. I also doubt he's the kind of hunter who quit looking after ten minutes of walking in circles.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > So quick question, how do you know it was a double lunger? Were they able to recover the animal? I just am skeptical of everyone saying I did a double lunger and the animal didn't go down or I couldn't find it, in fact I will call bull **** on it of course unless they recovered it and actually visually saw after gutting the animal holes through both lungs. Every year there are people who say they made the perfect shot, but the animal somehow got away.
> ...


I am just saying, the majority of the time, a lost animal is human error. Everybody likes to blame everything and everybody else, sometimes it is best to take personal accountability, it seems to be lacking in this day and age. I don't know the situation you speak of, so I can't say for sure, I was just giving my 2 bits, I have been know to do that from time to time. 8) A field tip will kill a dear if hit correctly. :twisted:


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

I also wanted to add, I am not calling you a liar River, I just wanted to make that clear.


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## Puddler (Apr 30, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> Ten yard double lung shots should tip a cow elk over in short order, right? Apparently not when you're using an expandable that doesn't work properly. Couldn't believe what I was reading when I got the text today, but needless to say, I won't be turning in my fixed blade broadheads any time soon. :|


What broadhead was he using?


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

All I know is sometimes those **** elk can run on adreneline alone. I was with a buddy last year that made a awesome 20 yard shot, clean pass through, the elk took off running. We sat there and watched it run atleast 1/2 mile down a ravine, up the other side of the mountain and over the top, taking small breaks in between. Every step it took we could see blood spraying from both sides of the body. Hell through the tree's there was blood spray 8' up in the trees and covering the ground. In the places we saw it stop, there was 3ft pools of blood. We get to the top of the mtn, blood trail stops completely. We looked for that **** thing for 3 days :x . We were amazed it could go that far with the blood loss alone, but then for the blood to just stop :shock: ??? They are some tough animals and can go forever if they put their minds to it!!!!


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Puddler said:


> Riverrat77 said:
> 
> 
> > Ten yard double lung shots should tip a cow elk over in short order, right? Apparently not when you're using an expandable that doesn't work properly. Couldn't believe what I was reading when I got the text today, but needless to say, I won't be turning in my fixed blade broadheads any time soon. :|
> ...


It was an Epek.

Jahan, its all good. If I didn't know the shooter personally, know how particular he is about the gear he uses, how much he practices, and if I hadn't shot with him in a 3D league this year over the course of several weeks, I would probably take the story with a grain of salt, like I have all the stories about this particular broadhead that I've heard. I'd prefer not to believe them.... but the guy can flat out shoot and ten yards is a slam dunk for him so when he says he hit her in the lungs from ten yards away, I'm inclined to believe him. Working for an arrow manufacturer, we hear all sorts of stories and a lot of it winds up being user error, definitely. Its hard to imagine a mechanical not having enough energy behind it to reliably open at ten yards though.... and ten yards, thats the blink of an eye... doesn't seem long enough for it to have opened in flight and kept the broadhead from penetrating very well.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

STEVO said:


> All I know is sometimes those **** elk can run on adreneline alone. I was with a buddy last year that made a awesome 20 yard shot, clean pass through, the elk took off running. We sat there and watched it run atleast 1/2 mile down a ravine, up the other side of the mountain and over the top, taking small breaks in between. Every step it took we could see blood spraying from both sides of the body. Hell through the tree's there was blood spray 8' up in the trees and covering the ground. In the places we saw it stop, there was 3ft pools of blood. We get to the top of the mtn, blood trail stops completely. We looked for that **** thing for 3 days :x . We were amazed it could go that far with the blood loss alone, but then for the blood to just stop :shock: ??? They are some tough animals and can go forever if they put their minds to it!!!!


Aliens... I'm just sayin.   With that kind of blood spray, I'd have thought it was right there somewhere. After three days, I'm surprised you didn't smell it.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

STEVO said:


> All I know is sometimes those **** elk can run on adreneline alone. I was with a buddy last year that made a awesome 20 yard shot, clean pass through, the elk took off running. We sat there and watched it run atleast 1/2 mile down a ravine, up the other side of the mountain and over the top, taking small breaks in between. Every step it took we could see blood spraying from both sides of the body. Hell through the tree's there was blood spray 8' up in the trees and covering the ground. In the places we saw it stop, there was 3ft pools of blood. We get to the top of the mtn, blood trail stops completely. We looked for that **** thing for 3 days :x . We were amazed it could go that far with the blood loss alone, but then for the blood to just stop :shock: ??? They are some tough animals and can go forever if they put their minds to it!!!!


Elk are a very hardy/tough animal.

River, how do they know it didn't open up? With EPEK's they will open and sometimes the blades will pop back into place afterwords. I know it sounds funny but I have shot them at targets, there were three blade marks on front and back of the target, but when I got to the broadhead it looked like it hadn't deployed. Anyways, it always sucks to lose an animal, like STEVO said elk are unbelievably tough.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

jahan said:


> Elk are a very hardy/tough animal.
> 
> River, how do they know it didn't open up? With EPEK's they will open and sometimes the blades will pop back into place afterwords. I know it sounds funny but I have shot them at targets, there were three blade marks on front and back of the target, but when I got to the broadhead it looked like it hadn't deployed. Anyways, it always sucks to lose an animal, like STEVO said elk are unbelievably tough.


The EPEK crew is pretty stout about their claims that if they open, its a devastating wound channel, entrance and exit wounds. I haven't asked the guy in person but I'll see him at softball tomorrow (he's a teammate) and will find out the whole deal. He didn't say anything about seeing her blowing blood out or anything like that, just that he took the shot, arrow didn't go all the way through and out the other side. When they went to track the elk, knowing he made a good shot and expecting her to be laying a few yards off, they found a few small blood drops and the one big pool with fleshy chunks (he called em lung chunks) in it. After that, nothing... and no elk. Pretty disappointing deal, for him at least. I'm sure the elk died somewhere, just not nearly as quickly or as close as he expected her to.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > Elk are a very hardy/tough animal.
> ...


That is no fun, it sounds like he hit a shoulder to me.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Another year, another thread on how the Epek broadhead failed again. :lol:


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

at ten yards with no pass-through....... I dare say he hit shoulder.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

chet said:


> at ten yards with no pass-through....... I dare say he hit shoulder.


No chet it's obviously the Epeks fault. I blame the epek to for me not getting my elk opening morning. See, I had these **** epek broadheads, and the elk came to 50 yards. But for some reason these **** epeks wouldn't work on this 5 point. If I wouldn't have had the epeks the elk would have been a legal spike, and I could have shot it.

*** you epeks for not calling in spikes.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

FWIW, we had a 13 year old shooting a 40 lb. bow kill a deer this weekend with an EPEK at 42 yards that HIT the shoulder bone, glanced forward and killed said animal within 90 yards, 40 lbs.. I know very well the story your talking about Rat and I've been around for many kills, lost animals and "CSI's" on downed animals and almost every lost animal was due to shot placement. Sometimes even good shots will fail, especially in the off shoulder bone of an elk.

Keep it up Jahan, I'd give you my best Helen Keller analogy right now, but it would fall on deaf,errrr, blind......... Nevermind.

What kind of arrow was he shooting? Maybe that was the problem......


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## droptine801 (Sep 26, 2007)

I went with the bloodrunner 3 blade it did its job


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## GB Labs (Jul 12, 2010)

I shot a deer Saturday night with the EPEK 100 grain. 30 yard shot, perfect entry came out the opposite shoulder. Total devastation. Both holes were pouring blood. I believe if the shooter does his part the broadheads will do theirs. By the way this was my first archery kill after being away from archery for 18 years.


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## goforbroke (Jan 4, 2009)

Muzzy is a good broadhead. I had a brother that nailed a cow last year from 8 yards. Saw the arrow go in. Went to help him a few hours later and we found his arrow about 80 yards away with no blood. We found one branch about the size of pencil lead cut between him and where the cow was that must of deflected it enough and as fast as the arrow goes he thought he saw a hit, but it was a clean miss. 8 yards. I still tease him, but I agree that most unrecovered animals are human error. I'm a fan of expandables, but nothing wrong with a fixed blade and muzzy is a good one as long as it shoots good out of your bow.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

GB Labs said:


> I believe if the shooter does his part the broadheads will do theirs.


With a fixed blade, I'd normally agree with you... but this is pretty obviously not the case in every situation, especially with mechanicals and talking with him, the shot was good while she was standing kinda in the open on a game trail. By the way, the shooter was Stablebuck. After talking to him for an hour or so after work today he said that if anyone has any questions, just PM him and he'll discuss whatever about the broadhead, the shot or anything else inquiring folks might want to know. It was an old style Epek apparently, one he'd had since last year. He isn't going to badmouth the broadhead on here, just really disappointed in the performance.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

droptine801 said:


> I went with the bloodrunner 3 blade it did its job


Nice... looks like that critter sprung a good leak. 8)


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## iluvchukars (Oct 21, 2009)

I have been shooting Grim Reapers for years and absolutely love them. This year with a new bow and yes it is tuned, they were hitting perfect left and right, just low.

With a Henry Mtns Archery tag that was not acceptable. Made a quick call to Scott Mackintosh and Greg Robbins and they got me a few Epeks.

Check out my post....1st morning, 1st arrow, 1st buck with a bow, and you will see what Epeks do at 42 yards.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

iluvchukars said:


> Check out my post....1st morning, 1st arrow, 1st buck with a bow, and you will see what Epeks do at 42 yards.


That was a nice deer.... it sure makes you scratch your head when people are killing deer at 42 yds, 35 yds or whatever else but at ten yards you don't get good penetration or a kill shot. Maybe the trick is just to let the animals get out a little further before winging an Epek their direction. 8)


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

refer to page 9 on this pdf web page http://www.dundeesportsmansclub.com/dun ... cement.pdf and on the "broadside shot" picture...that orange dot is exactly where I hit. In addition, she was quartering towards me slightly...so that would rule out hitting the opposite shoulder and she was downhill so that would rule out it getting lodged in the backbone. I was shooting a 380gr arrow with a bow set at 67lbs with an arrow speed of about 310fps and a GoldTip Pro Hunter 5575. With the angle and the shot placement, the only thing that could have stopped the arrow would have been a rib on the opposite side. Which in my judgment is unacceptable on a 10yard shot. Some people have used mechanical broadheads with great success, but this experience has convinced me that I would rather have a pass thru and a 1 1/16" cutting diameter than take the chance of a mechanical failing on me...no matter how miniscule that chance. It's just not worth it to me. I have nothing against any particular broadhead manufacturer...this was my fault for putting so much faith in a piece of equipment that had a chance of failing. I shoot just as much as anyone on this forum, I made a good shot (which I verified by the blood that I did find), and something went wrong after my arrow hit the animal that wouldn't have gone wrong if there had been a fixed blade on the tip of my arrow. So I will be eliminating the one thing that I didn't have control over (the functioning of the mechanical broadhead) and continuing on with my hunts with my slick tricks that are flying identical to my field points to at least 50 yards.
Once again...you don't have to take my word for it. Hunting equipment selection is a personal choice and some people love certain things that others hate. I know some people consider my word and judgment golden, but for others I encourage you to try what you think will work and in the end, based on your experiences, make the choice to hunt responsibly with the right equipment...whatever that may be.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Thats your problem... you were using GT's.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

It wasn't a Hoyt too, was it? That's also a determining factor.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Anyway you look at it, it always sucks to lose an animal. 

I talked with my cousin last night and he got a cow elk on Saturday. A 5 yard shot from his tree stand, old style EPEK broad head, down in less than 60 yards, back straps for dinner that night.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

naw it was a bowtech...where everything went wrong was when the cow ran off and had 8" of my arrow sticking out the entry side and then an hour later when I went to pick up the trail there was a total of 6 drops of blood...with the last drop of blood being about the size of a kernel of corn on a branch and then a pool of blood the size of a 4"x6" envelope that had bright red blood and chunks of lung in it. There plain and simple was not enough blood to find the animal...
It was my friend and I doing the tracking for 3 hours Saturday night and then 5 more hours Sunday. Between the 2 of us we have 40 years of tracking animals that have been shot.
So apparently I am the "mechanical statistic" for this year...which sucks and which leads us all to make that personal choice in hunting equipment. I'm pretty sure your cousin will be hunting again with that particular mechanical, I however will not.


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

iluvchukars said:


> Check out my post....1st morning, 1st arrow, 1st buck with a bow, and you will see what Epeks do at 42 yards.


New or old style EPEK?


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## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

I just switched this season from G5 Montecs to the Shuttle T-Locks by Trophy Taker. They fly a lot straighter and more like a field point than the Montecs and have a bigger cutting channel. 

It worked wonders for me on my buck this weekend.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

Just curious, do you intend to keep hunting elk this year? Or does your Lic. allow you to kill more than one elk!


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> Just curious, do you intend to keep hunting elk this year? Or does your Lic. allow you to kill more than one elk!


Or perhaps he has both an elk and a deer tag.  Let's not rush to judgement.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

Did I mention deer?


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

I intend to hunt and to help others hunt for the rest of the year. Legally I can still kill and tag an elk and/or a deer, but I will choose to kill only one more big game animal this year in Utah.
What would you do twigflipper?


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

twigflipper said:


> Just curious, do you intend to keep hunting elk this year? Or does your Lic. allow you to kill more than one elk!


This is very uncalled for-nasty post. You know what happens when you assume, well maybe you don't, I will explain it too you when you get a little older.  :mrgreen: :lol:


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

stablebuck said:


> I intend to hunt and to help others hunt for the rest of the year. Legally I can still kill and tag an elk and/or a deer, but I will choose to kill only one more big game animal this year in Utah.
> What would you do twigflipper?


Hopefully you get the opportunity to make up for it man.... I'm sure you can get it done. Let me know when you want to go up.... got games tonight and tomorrow but next week and the Labor Day week (when I'm off work all week) I'm free anytime.


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## iluvchukars (Oct 21, 2009)

New or old style EPEK?[/quote]

Brand new. I called Scotty Mac Wednesday morning and stopped in on my way down the Henrys Thursday for the hunt and got 6 fresh ones.


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## gitterdone81 (Sep 3, 2009)

Just a random post on the toughness of Elk. A guy harvested a mature bull one year, and while cleaning him out, found a double lunger shaft on the inside. It appeared that it wasn't a pass through, but that eventually the arrow had broken off on the outside, and healed up on the inside. Sometimes those suckers as was mentioned have the adrenaline kick in and can survive the 'perfect' shot.

Sorry stable, good luck rest of the season.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

Not a nasty post at all, just a simple question that Stablebuck answered as I would have hoped!!!! He asked me what I would do. What I've done a couple times in the past and would do every time every time in the future is punch my tag for that species and go on to the next. I tip my hat to him!!! I apologize if it seemed nasty, it's just that it's a huge pet peeve of mine!!!!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

twigflipper said:


> Not a nasty post at all, just a simple question that Stablebuck answered as I would have hoped!!!! He asked me what I would do. What I've done a couple times in the past and would do every time every time in the future is punch my tag for that species and go on to the next. I tip my hat to him!!! I apologize if it seemed nasty, it's just that it's a huge pet peeve of mine!!!!


No problem, I misinterpreted your post and I apologize. Also I really respect people who punch their tag when they wound an animal, I think it is the noble thing to do even if you don't have to do it.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I hesitate writing this because people only hear what they want to hear....but....here it goes.

There are WAY too many eliments that can be factored in before claiming that something didn't work. One is (and probably the most likely) shot placement. I am an "old" guy. I have been wrong many times when I thought that I was right. Last year, I wittnessed a gal shooting a 4 point buckie. I was right there with my video camera running. I watched the nock bury itself into the crease and she had a perfect hit! The buck ran about 10 yards, stopped and stood. I said, "oh, it is going down right there!" I brought up my binocs as the buck began to walk away. I was in shock as I looked at it with 12 power at 30 yards to see that the buck had NO wound but a little skin tear that was not even bleeding. She had hit the buck low on the very tip of the elbow and off the bottom of the brisket. That glance caused the back of the arrow to slap the buck 4 inches up in the "EXACT" kill zone with the veins and nock causing it to "Appear" as a "Perfect hit". The buck actually was unscathed. Hard to believe and if I hadn't seen it myself, and then reviewed video in slow motion MANY times, I would have not believed it either. 

Scenario #2. My buddy in Montana was sceptical of shooting the brand new Epek in it's prototype stages. I had just killed my bull the night before and gave he and his brother each one head. I spoke with the one at lunch. He told me that his brother had hit a bull in the shoulder that morning and got only like 2 inches of penetration. I was sick because I knew that he would blame it on the head instead of the fact that he tried to penetrate the shoulder and that in many instances is too much to ask of a broadhead. Well he told me that the bull ran off and the arrow fell out in less than two steps. I said quietly, "It was an Epek?"...........He couldn't contain himself any longer and said, "No, he got nerveous and didn't trust it so he shot his Muzzy." The more that I know about hunting, broadheads, and shot placement, I put NO blame on Muzzy. 

One is where one thinks they hit an animal better than they in FACT did and the other is that some things in physics are more than our bows and broadheads can handle. Shoulders are not good shots. 

I don't know all the details here and didn't have time to read every word but it sounded to me like a bad thing happened and it was obvious that it was easy to point the finger at the broadhead. I am sorry that you feel that way and will most likely as I said earlier not convince you of anything different. Every Broadhead out there has those who think that they suck because of reasons that I don't think are fair. That is the way life is so I will leave it at that.


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## deercatcherguy (Aug 26, 2008)

I have a theory...

I also had a "I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it" type of thing. I shot a little buck two years ago and watched it run down an open schute. I saw the buck bleeding while he took his "death run". I watched him bed down next to a bush that was about 20 feet by 20 feet. 

I left for 5 minutes to go get my pack and radio to the others that I had one down. When I cam back and looked at the bush, the buck was gone. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!!! I waited gathered my things and walked to the bush that I had seen the buck next to. There was a little blood and no discernable blood trail away from the bush. My heart sank. After a while I looked at the bush and noticed some blood. My brother-in-law started to walk through the bush and there was my buck... in a 6 foot deep grave... in the middle of the bush! For some odd reason there was a hole right in the middle of this bush that was a perfect deer grave.

We got lucky! Sometimes I think that animals die in "plain sight" and others may die in scrub brush or under logs etc. An injured animal dehydrates quite quickly and when an animal is dehydrated they seek the most shady area they can find . This is just a theory. I am not saying that this happened with Stable's animal. 

Full disclosure. I am of the EPEK crew but not in the EPEK crew. I imagine with all things there are two sides to every story. The reason that the XC-3 is in exsistence is that the crew could not find a broadhead that met the criteria of a perfect broadhead. I have seen plenty of pictures that say they do work. 

Good luck on the rest of your season Stable! Maybe you should PM me and teach me how to get 10 yard shots


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

iluvchukars said:


> Brand new. I called Scotty Mac Wednesday morning and stopped in on my way down the Henrys Thursday for the hunt and got 6 fresh ones.


Thanks, good to know. I thought I could tell from your pics that it was the new style but wanted to make sure.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

MEEN said:


> iluvchukars said:
> 
> 
> > New or old style EPEK?
> ...


Thanks, good to know. I thought I could tell from your pics that it was the new style but wanted to make sure.[/quote]

His are so new that they haven't been anodized yet. Greg pulled a bunch off the press for me and some for Lance and off we went. That is why his is Silver in the photo.


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## iluvchukars (Oct 21, 2009)

Silver with a little blood and hair!!!!!!!!!


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

Not to be nasty or anything, to Epek broadheads, but I just got back from a guided archery elk hunt in which after 4 days of busting our butts to get into position for a good shot at a 7x7 that would gross 370, (a conservative guess), granted my hunter over shot a steep 40 yd down hill shot, but thinking he had hit the bull, nocked another arrow and when the bull stopped at 70 yds he let him have it again, this arrow bounced off of the bull on a tight shoulder hit, knowing for sure that he had hit the bull this time he nocked another arrow, so to get as much of a blood trail as possible at 85 yds hit him again, this arrow also bounced off. The black housing broke off both times on impact with absolutely no penetration!!! I watched as the bull walked up the mountain bugling wondering what the heck had just happened!!! Watching what had just happened I wondered if he had shot him with blunts! Love how they fly but not at all impressed with the preformance! He was shooting a Monster at 74 lbs with a 430 gr. arrow going 295 fps. with old style Epeks. Neither one of us were very happy!!!! Stablebuck I feel for you man.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

twigflipper said:


> Not to be nasty or anything, to Epek broadheads, but I just got back from a guided archery elk hunt in which after 4 days of busting our butts to get into position for a good shot at a 7x7 that would gross 370, (a conservative guess), granted my hunter over shot a steep 40 yd down hill shot, but thinking he had hit the bull, nocked another arrow and when the bull stopped at 70 yds he let him have it again, this arrow bounced off of the bull on a tight shoulder hit, knowing for sure that he had hit the bull this time he nocked another arrow, so to get as much of a blood trail as possible at 85 yds hit him again, this arrow also bounced off. The black housing broke off both times on impact with absolutely no penetration!!! I watched as the bull walked up the mountain bugling wondering what the heck had just happened!!! Watching what had just happened I wondered if he had shot him with blunts! Love how they fly but not at all impressed with the preformance! He was shooting a Monster at 74 lbs with a 430 gr. arrow going 295 fps. with old style Epeks. Neither one of us were very happy!!!! Stablebuck I feel for you man.


At this distance, my guess is the Hunter hit the elk in the antler. This would explain the lack of penetration. Hope this helps clear up any confusion.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

HaHa, Great post, but according to advertisement it should have passed through the antler both times!!! LOL!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

twigflipper said:


> Not to be nasty or anything, to Epek broadheads, but I just got back from a guided archery elk hunt in which after 4 days of busting our butts to get into position for a good shot at a 7x7 that would gross 370, (a conservative guess), granted my hunter over shot a steep 40 yd down hill shot, but thinking he had hit the bull, nocked another arrow and when the bull stopped at 70 yds he let him have it again, this arrow bounced off of the bull on a tight shoulder hit, knowing for sure that he had hit the bull this time he nocked another arrow, so to get as much of a blood trail as possible at 85 yds hit him again, this arrow also bounced off. The black housing broke off both times on impact with absolutely no penetration!!! I watched as the bull walked up the mountain bugling wondering what the heck had just happened!!! Watching what had just happened I wondered if he had shot him with blunts! Love how they fly but not at all impressed with the preformance! He was shooting a Monster at 74 lbs with a 430 gr. arrow going 295 fps. with old style Epeks. Neither one of us were very happy!!!! Stablebuck I feel for you man.


Wont kill an elk with any broadhead hitting them in the shoulder, so blame the broadhead, or you could place the blame where it actually belongs. I am just being honest.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Not with these ones.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

like I said before...regardless of what kind of broadhead it is (mechanical, fixed blade, combination of both), if you hunt enough and take enough shots there are gonna be instances that are gonna make you question your confidence in any given product. As a bowhunter I truly believe there is nothing more important as you step out of your pickup and head down the trail than confidence in your equipment and in your abilities. I hope your client is able to make the proper adjustments to his shooting ability and/or equipment selection to regain a measure of confidence that will enable him to make well-placed, clean-killing shots in the future.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

Just to be clear, the last 2 shots were for more blood as he thought he had hit him wth the first shot, and neither the second or the third shots were "in" the shoulder ,but tight behind the shoulder. Still not impressed! Sorry!


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

twigflipper said:


> Just to be clear, the last 2 shots were for more blood as he thought he had hit him wth the first shot, and neither the second or the third shots were "in" the shoulder ,but tight behind the shoulder. Still not impressed! Sorry!


Weird, I'd imagine that a blunt would penetrate at this distance.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

twigflipper said:


> Just to be clear, the last 2 shots were for more blood as he thought he had hit him wth the first shot, and neither the second or the third shots were "in" the shoulder ,but tight behind the shoulder. Still not impressed! Sorry!


I understand but you are missing the point, broadheads are designed to penetrate through shoulder, not saying that some don't occasionally slip through, but it is an ill advised shot nonetheless. The distance of the shots didn't bother me, I think in that situation it was the right thing to do. Also they weren't tight behind the shoulder or they would have went in, a bow with 30lb pull back would penetrate if it didn't hit bone.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Jahan's right. He's saying you're full of ****.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Jahan, why do you always have to be such a flaming butthole?


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

You're right at 30lbs they should have at least stuck, tight behind the shoulder. You make your own conclusions I made mine!!! I have some in my bow case, I might send them to you if you'll give me your address.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Anyways, I hate to hear that the gentlemen wasn't able to get that bull, it sounds like a dandy. All I am saying is if they bounced off they had to of hit bone, best of luck to you guys.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

This baffles me.... I have seen these heads perform over and over and over and over and over and over again... I helped my nephew recover his deer that he shot at 40 yds with a 40 pound bow and 350 grn arrows. He hit a little forward and crunched through the front shoulder bone causing the buck to go about 90 yds and pile up dead... So when I hear stories like this I find it hard to blame the broadhead solely. 

So, if indeed you watched arrows bounce of the soft part of an elk, either he was wearing invisible arrow proof armor, or there was some supernatural intervention happening and this elk was not supposed to die this day... Both of those theories are slightly more believable to me than your story of chisel pointed arrows traveling at incredible rates of speed bouncing of an animal. 

What's your angle? To get me riled up? It worked.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

It's possible that the elk had a .308 caliber bullet lodged in his fur from the year before. (The hunter hit him from a hundred yards and for some reason didn't get any penetration, and the lead just stuck there.) And the arrow struck this lead both times, causing it to "bounce off"


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> It's possible that the elk had a .308 caliber bullet lodged in his fur from the year before. (The hunter hit him from a hundred yards and for some reason didn't get any penetration, and the lead just stuck there.) And the arrow struck this lead both times, causing it to "bounce off"


Also plausible...


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> chet said:
> 
> 
> > at ten yards with no pass-through....... I dare say he hit shoulder.
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol: that was good Fixed blade


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

I have yet to shoot anything with the epeks. But I did witness a fixed blade not do the job either. A buddy of mine got within 20 yards of a dandy four point buck and shot. The arrow went perfectly into the vitals. We watched as it ran down the canyon until it disappeared. We left for 2 hours and when we picked up the trail thought this deer would be piled up not far from where we last seen him. Well we searched for 2 hours until dark and then again the next day, no deer. Everyday we looked and one day we went out and low and behold that deer was standing on a hillside eating. I couldn't believe it but we could clearly see dried blood on the side of his ribs. Niether of us had our bows so we just watched in amazement as he walked away seemingly unharmed. 
We never saw it again but it is pretty amazing at how tough elk and some deer are.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

mikevanwilder said:


> I have yet to shoot anything with the epeks. But I did witness a fixed blade not do the job either. A buddy of mine got within 20 yards of a dandy four point buck and shot. The arrow went perfectly into the vitals. We watched as it ran down the canyon until it disappeared. We left for 2 hours and when we picked up the trail thought this deer would be piled up not far from where we last seen him. Well we searched for 2 hours until dark and then again the next day, no deer. Everyday we looked and one day we went out and low and behold that deer was standing on a hillside eating. I couldn't believe it but we could clearly see dried blood on the side of his ribs. Niether of us had our bows so we just watched in amazement as he walked away seemingly unharmed.
> We never saw it again but it is pretty amazing at how tough elk and some deer are.


this is getting old...


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

You fellers can come up with all the cute little bed time stories you like to defend 2 broadheads that failed, there are 10 hunters and 10 guides that inspected the 2 heads after the fact that wont be members of the fan base!!!! night night!!!


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## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

twigflipper said:


> I have some in my bow case, I might send them to you if you'll give me your address.


I would like to test them out send them to:

PKRED
P.O. box 953 
Lehi, Ut 84043

I'm serious. Send um to me I'm curious. 8)


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

twigflipper said:


> You fellers can come up with all the cute little bed time stories you like to defend 2 broadheads that failed, there are 10 hunters and 10 guides that inspected the 2 heads after the fact that wont be members of the fan base!!!! night night!!!


Nothing to do with being a "fan". which I am and not ashamed to say, but it comes down to physics. What you say happen is impossible. If the dude is shooting a monster at 70+ pounds, that thing is going to be moving with lots of kinetic energy, there is no way a little bit of hide is going to stop that broadhead or any broadhead for that matter. I have cut my finger open with those chisel points just by handling them. Sorry you flung mud first and I am just responding, I am allergic to bull****.  :mrgreen: :lol:


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

idiot with a bow said:


> mikevanwilder said:
> 
> 
> > I have yet to shoot anything with the epeks. But I did witness a fixed blade not do the job either. A buddy of mine got within 20 yards of a dandy four point buck and shot. The arrow went perfectly into the vitals. We watched as it ran down the canyon until it disappeared. We left for 2 hours and when we picked up the trail thought this deer would be piled up not far from where we last seen him. Well we searched for 2 hours until dark and then again the next day, no deer. Everyday we looked and one day we went out and low and behold that deer was standing on a hillside eating. I couldn't believe it but we could clearly see dried blood on the side of his ribs. Niether of us had our bows so we just watched in amazement as he walked away seemingly unharmed.
> ...


I was just making a point that its not just with mechanicals that you can loose an animal.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

mikevanwilder said:


> idiot with a bow said:
> 
> 
> > mikevanwilder said:
> ...


I know man, I just think that there is a chance that it wasn't even the broadhead... Sometimes seemingly perfect shots are not actually perfect. Not enough evidence to blame the fixed blade.

And Twigflipper, I'm not just defending the broadhead, I am defending TRUTH by god! You're going Henry Rollins on me man! You are telling me things that I already know so that I can say I really identify with you so much! Get the reference? Arrows don't bounce off elk... Again, what is your angle?


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

idiot with a bow said:


> mikevanwilder said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="idiot with a bow":amqy0yjq]
> ...


I know man, I just think that there is a chance that it wasn't even the broadhead... Sometimes seemingly perfect shots are not actually perfect. Not enough evidence to blame the fixed blade.[/quote:amqy0yjq]
I agree I wasn't blaming the broadhead at all for this deer. In my opinion my friends shot wasn't as good as we both thought at first. That is why I didn't say the name of the fixed blade he was using.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I wrote on this subject yesterday but up on this Mountain where two Elk that I know of to be killed by the Epek in the past few days, i didnt have enough phone reception to send my post and it was gone forever. That is probably a good thing as I wasnt very nice or diplomatic. I will try to speak nicely when I call this story of two perfectly placed arrows, right in the crease at very far distances and "bounced" off, a bit too far fetched for me to believe. First of all the guides who I am suposed to believe and trust simply because they have the word "guide" in thier name let a client shoot at 70 and 85 yards? Second, at those distances, they all saw the arrow hit perfectly in the crease behind the shoulder and bounce off like it was a rubber blunt? Third, the bull turned and walked away like it didnt know what was happening. I cant imagine an Elk getting hit perfectly in the crease by a blunt, let alone a sharp chisel point and have the animal just walk away like nothing happened. Like Greg told me, "A person who got a D- in Physics can tell you that an arrow with a sharp point going 300 feet per second isnt going to bounce off a soft tissue". My theory is that the guy missed again and again. If you have two inches of blood on the arrow with no penetration then you hit shoulder and everyone knows that broadheads and shoulders dont mix very well. I will have to share my story with you about when i knocked my dads lantern into the lake while night fishing at Strawberry. Half an hour later, i had a snag. When i reeled in, i was surprised to see that I had caught the lantern and reeled it in. The craziest part was that the lantern was still lit!............OK, i will blow out my lantern if you'll not say that TWO arrows at BIG distances hit PERFECTLY in the crease beind the shoulder and "Bounced" off with a sharp chisel point at the tip.  in my mind both stories carry the same validity.


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## Mtn. Runner (Oct 7, 2009)

I need to get me one of those lanterns. HAHA. I am not a epek fan/user but there is know way that you had 2 perfectly placed shots with that setup and the arrow just bounced off the animal. Even a field tip would have stuck in good at that distance with that setup if you indeed hit in the crease of the shoulder.


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## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

My opinion: Almost ALL broadheads made these days are very, very, very well made compared to what hunters were using even just 15 years ago.

I would say that 90% of the makeup of a downed animal by a bow is shot placement and shot angle. 

10% is the broadhead especially if the shot is farther than 35 yards or so. 

If you buy 20 broadheads and hit 20 deer at 20 yards with the exact same shot placement and angle it is my opinion that you will have pretty darn similar results. 

I have hunted with 2 mechanical broadheads and 2 fixed broadheads. They all worked to kill the animals I shot. 

Having said that, based upon flight pattern, accuracy, and speed of death I prefer the Shuttle T-Lock fixed broadhead.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

**** the attack machine is out!!! LMAO!!! Stablebuck had a problem you attack him, I got to watch a problem you attack me!! You fellers can come up with all the bul**** excuses you want!! What I saw hasn't changed, the black housing was broke off and the arrows bounced off!!!! Back to the mountain for me, 3 more months of pounding the mountain for deer and elk. Enjoy your offices!!!!!!!


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

twigflipper said:


> **** the attack machine is out!!! LMAO!!! Stablebuck had a problem you attack him, I got to watch a problem you attack me!! You fellers can come up with all the bul**** excuses you want!! What I saw hasn't changed, the black housing was broke off and the arrows bounced off!!!! Back to the mountain for me, 3 more months of pounding the mountain for deer and elk. Enjoy your offices!!!!!!!


you're hard core man...


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

You ever wonder why on Cabelas.com or somewhere else where you can review products that there rarely is any item that gets a perfect 5 out of 5 stars or why Dodge has been the official PRCA pickup truck since as long as I've been alive but Chevy are the longest lasting trucks on the road???
The fact that nothing is operated in a vacuum inherently means that at some point even the most reliable product is going to fail. The ______ broadhead has taken plenty of animals and there are a few animals that may not have been recovered with the same broadhead as well. The point is...you can insert whatever name you want in that blank. There's a reason why there are a hundred different broadheads out there and there is a reason why there are Chevys, Fords, Dodges, Toyotas, Nissans, ets...
Everyone has their own personal experience to go with products whether they are positively reinforced experiences or negatively reinforced experiences.
Some people have more confidence in certain products than others.
Hunt with whatever broadhead you honestly feel is the best tool for the job and you are confident will kill cleanly and quickly.
I had a bad experience with a certain broadhead which has shaken my confidence in that product. One of my hunting buddies hunts with that certain broadhead, but it is not my place to give him a hard time about using it. He's a big boy and his confidence in his hunting equipment is not something for me to question based on my experience alone. Now if he were to ask me then I'd tell him my opinion. I'm hunting with a different broadhead that my confidence is still intact with. The proof is in the pudding...try out all the broadheads that you want...the one's that you ultimately hunt with will be the one's that earn your confidence.
I'm happy for elk22, IWAB, IWAB's nephew, ShawnSanchez, and last but not least Iluvchukars (who honestly kind of creeped me out with the whole shirtless bowshooting/protein-shake-drinking/exercising true hollywood story thing on MonsterMuleys). I'm glad y'all all have done well with product X. It feels good when everything comes together! And they're not the only one's, by far, who have used Product X with great success.
Product X isn't for everyone...Product Y isn't for everyone...Product Z isn't for everyone.

This is the part where a moderator steps in and says the Billy Madison line at the end of the Puppy Who Lost It's Way and Industrial Revolution comparison


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

(who honestly kind of creeped me out with the whole shirtless bowshooting/protein-shake-drinking/exercising true hollywood story thing on MonsterMuleys)

funny!


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

I would like to bear my testimony as well...I watched a bull last night go down thanks to a Mathews Monster and a 125gr epek broadhead. First shot was quartering towards at about 26 yards so the arrow was placed through the shoulder penetrating both lungs. The elk ran off to 80 yards broadside so just to make sure, the second shot centered punched the bull for a complete pass through...and I love my mom and dad and brothers and sisters...amen.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Thank you brother Wayment. :lol:

Hard to believe that second shot didn't just bounce off... Jeeze, an 80 yard passthrough on an elk with a Monster and an EPEK head! I'm calling bull****! :roll: :O•-:


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Thank you brother Wayment. :lol:


Jesus.... will ya look at that? :shock: I'm bleeding from biting my tongue after reading that testimony. :?


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

twigflipper said:


> Dern the attack machine is out!!! LMbO!!! *Stablebuck had a problem you attack him*, I got to watch a problem you attack me!! You fellers can come up with all the bullpoop excuses you want!! What I saw hasn't changed, the black housing was broke off and the arrows bounced off!!!! Back to the mountain for me, 3 more months of pounding the mountain for deer and elk. Enjoy your offices!!!!!!!


I don't think that I attacked Stablebuck. I like Stablebuck and he is not angry at Epek. He didn't have a possitive experience on an Elk hunt and whether it was any of the many things that could have happened in his situation, he simply lost confidence in the broadhead. I will do all that I can to help him gain that confidence back. Your situation was different. I was not trying to "attack" you. I just could not sit idly by and have someone put down a broadhead by telling a story that had as many holes in it as yours did. Sorry if I offended you but I couldn't take it anymore. I am not disputing that the head broke. I am disputing that two arrows bounced off the shoulder crease. Rocks will break the head. Just about any head.

Funny stuff Shane. Congrats on your bull as well. I saw the little video that Tex sent to me. Sounds like you had fun!


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## ktowncamo (Aug 27, 2008)

Isn't there an emoticon of a horse on laying on its back and a guy beating it? Yea, def needed here.

But since I'm here I will say that with the Carbon Express F-15, EPEK and the Grim Reaper in my quiver I reached for the Grim Reaper and got it done on my elk. It deployed upon contact with a nice sized triangle in the hide and a brutal hole in the lungs. 45 yards, piled up. I like the Grim Reaper but I'll give the other two their day in the sunshine.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

elk22hunter said:


> twigflipper said:
> 
> 
> > Dern the attack machine is out!!! LMbO!!! *Stablebuck had a problem you attack him*, I got to watch a problem you attack me!! You fellers can come up with all the bullpoop excuses you want!! What I saw hasn't changed, the black housing was broke off and the arrows bounced off!!!! Back to the mountain for me, 3 more months of pounding the mountain for deer and elk. Enjoy your offices!!!!!!!
> ...


I am not angry at Epek either, and by no means did you offend me, this hunt wasn't my frist county fair. My client had utter confidence in your broadhead as he has had success with your broadhead (not elk) in the past. I'm not a real fan of mechanicals but have purchased your product to see first hand what it was about!! I'll admit they fly great!!!! In fact I considered this hunt a barometer for a first impression! You can say all you want about holes in my story,(and have every right to disagree with me if you like),but I assure you it happened as I stated, the arrows hit flesh and blood, I have no angles and no reason to lie!!! You tell me why they didn't pentatrate,this was my first experience on an animal with this head and I'm not very confident in what I saw.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

No problem Brother Tex...I love to bear testimony.

Thanks Scott, it was a long hard but very fun hunt.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

I Bare testimony that when shooting a bull from 32 yards, it will only go 50 yards more before piling up..DEAD!! I was shooting the 100 gr version of the Epek, with a Reflex Highlander and Easton Nanos. Not the biggest Bull by any means but, thanks to TAK, Bwhntr, PRO, northslope and TEX, I put the meat on the ground. Amen


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

I also bare testimony that when calling elk, sounding lie a duck...does not bring in BIG bulls...just saying people


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## iluvchukars (Oct 21, 2009)

Dear brethren and what few sisters may be in attendance,

This is why i luv this place!! This is a very funny post...and yes i did just get home from church.
Sorry if some of you were (creeped out with the whole shirtless bowshooting/protein-shake-drinking/exercising true hollywood story thing on MonsterMuleys), thats how i work out. and no not to impress any one. If you couldnt tell I weigh a whole 150lbs....I am a man, not much of one but a man, (daniel tosh quote).

I was shooting Grim Reapers and still love them...but when they were hitting low, I did what any one would do right before a big hunt,,,,found one that flew perfect!!! 

Will I still shoot Grim Reapers??....you bet!!

Will I also shoot Epeks?.....most definitely!!

I have killed animals with both and both did what I needed them to.

Till we meet again. Amen.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

wapiti67 said:


> I also bare testimony that when calling elk, sounding lie a duck...does not bring in BIG bulls...just saying people


 -_O- ...Hmmm who could that be? btw, I have no idea how to call in poop eating ducks, now tak on the other hand... :mrgreen:


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

wapiti67 said:


> I Bare testimony that when shooting a bull from 32 yards, it will only go 50 yards more before piling up..DEAD!! I was shooting the 100 gr version of the Epek, with a Reflex Highlander and Easton Nanos. Not the biggest Bull by any means but, thanks to TAK, Bwhntr, PRO, northslope and TEX, I put the meat on the ground. Amen


No John...Thank you for the very seductive and extremely hot estrus calling to bring an exciting finale to a very long and hard hunt.


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## Kdub (Sep 6, 2010)

I may be a little backwards or old school in my thinking, but when it comes to shooting something as big as an elk, I want all the weight and strength of broadhead I can get. I even still shoot heavy aluminum xx78 arrows and a 125 grain Muzzy. I like when people say point of impact is different with a fixed blade broadhead. It is. Mine hit about 3 inches higher. What do I do? Move my sights up a bit. Takes about 2 minutes. To each his own however. i don't like people telling me what to do so I don't tell them either.


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