# Upgrading optics - binoculars



## rifleman (Nov 27, 2007)

Ok...after the deer hunt this year I realized that upgrading optics will help dramatically. I will start by asking about binoculars. My particular questions:

1. is a 12x worth it for my chest pack or should I stick with 10x?
2. What glass is best for under $500?
3. Is Athlon worth a look?


thanks in advance!


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I love my 12x50 vipers.


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## rifleman (Nov 27, 2007)

Ray said:


> I love my 12x50 vipers.


Can you hold the 12X steady enough for glassing a hillside?


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

It's hard to free-hand 12's. It can be done with some stabilization (grabbing onto bill of hat, etc.). Obviously they're great if you're able to put them on a tripod and look around!

I know a bunch of people that love their 12's and people that love their 10's, I guess it all depends on the country and distance you're looking and if that 2x magnification difference is beneficial or not. I personally love my 10's and don't think I'd ever switch to 12's. If I see something in my 10's that's a ways out, I just switch to my spotting scope and go from there.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I wouldn't want to use a 12x as my main binos. For me, 10x is about the limit for stability in the hand. 

I have a pair of Maven b2 9x45. I absolutely love them. New, they're much higher than your $500 limit. But you might be able to find some used for just above $500. I think I found mine for $600. I considered it a steal. Alternatively, you could go with their c3 which is $475 new. Lifetime warranty


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

I am a big proponent of buying the best glass you can afford. For $500, you could find a nice used "just below alpha" type of bino. I am thinking older Zeiss Conquest, Meopta Meostar, Vortex Razor HD, Maven B series, Tract Toric etc. That is what I would be doing.

As for magnification, I have learned through lots of trial and error, that I am an 8x ish type of bino user. I tried the 10x powers of various quality multiple times and just couldn't hold them steady enough while free handing, to find them a pleasure to use. An 8x or 9x was as high of mag as I can go without a steady diet on a tripod. I had the same Maven B2 9x45 that rtockstein mentions and they were really really good. Used them happily for 6+ years (I was an early Maven adopter, still a huge fan). I now use a Swarovski EL 8.5x42 and I am totally content with what I have. They are outstanding.

I have always been a fan of the Vortex Viper HD line as it represents a good value. The Maven C series I feel has a bit better view, albeit a tough narrower. But glass wise, the Maven C is really good. 

Best of luck in your decision. You can't make up for "bad glass" by adding more magnification. Be careful not to get stuck in that trap. You need to know how high of a magnification you can functionally use without needing a tripod. For my friends, most have used 10x and even the Maven B2 11x45 with good success. Yet I have consistently outglassed them using my 8 or 9x glass. And contrary to popular belief, the 8x family is still AMAZING on a tripod.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

rifleman said:


> Can you hold the 12X steady enough for glassing a hillside?


it holds fine for me, even with still hunting. I do also have a tripod I pack with me, so when I sit and glass I maximize my glassing. That said, I don’t always take it and find plenty of stabilization with simply laying against a tree with my elbows in tight and grabbing my hat


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

No ifs, ands or buts... the day you own top shelf glass you will say "why didn't I get these sooner".

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have a pair of Swaro's 10x42 EL's that I have used for around 5 years now and they are some fantastic glass. But on my trip to Africa this past summer I took my 10x42 Leopold Cascades and had zero problems glassing for animals even those sitting in the shadows. 

With a $500 cap on price I would look at both Leopold's and Vortex. Both have outstanding warranties. 

When you go down to look at them ask to see if you can take them outside to get a good view in natural light. If they won't do that then look into the darkest corner of the store and see if you can see any detail difference between the ones that you are looking through. 

I like 10x42's, they provide good magnification along with being compact enough not to take up too much space. I have a pair of 15x56 that I'll pack if I am just a spotter for another hunter and as has been mentioned 15x can be a handful trying to hold steady but with practice and the correct technique it can be done but with that magnification you should be using a tripod.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

How you glass and where you glass should dictate what you're carrying. For 90% of my hunting I have maven b3 8x30 on my chest. For more open terrain I like a 10x42. For your price limit you'd probably like the tract toric. It goes on sale for 10% off around black Friday and several other holidays. They are every bit as clear as the alphas but get about 5-10 min less use in the twilight. For that reason you can find them used around $500.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

And yes, athlon is worth a look, especially when they are on sale or if you get pro form.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Also check here for deals:





Shop Online | Camera Land NY


Shop Online | Camera Land NY




cameralandny.com





The kowa binos are very nice as well.


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

I bought some used Zeiss Conquest on KSL for about that price. I was close to buying the Mavens, but I love the Zeiss.

Buy a used tripod and bino adaptor while you're at it. It will change the way you glass forever. It's been a game changer for me. 

Also, go with the 10x--more versatile and easier to manage when you aren't on the tripod.


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## bwhntr23 (Sep 29, 2008)

Do yourself a favor and take a look at the Hawke Frontier ED X in the 10x42. They are a fantastic bino and are right there around your budget.


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## rifleman (Nov 27, 2007)

anxiously awaiting the black friday deals!


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## BearLakeFishGuy (Apr 15, 2013)

My opinion is definitely in the minority here and some guys will choose to take offense to my comments: With that said, I think the high priced glass is only marginally better for about 5 min in the morning and maybe 5 min in the evening. To me that is just not worth spending ridicuous amounts of extra money, unless you are a guide who uses them 10X more than an average hunter. I have literally sat right next to people with Swarovski and Zeiss binos and looked through them next to Vortex and Bausch & Lomb binos that cost $249 to about $459, and even the owners of the pricey glass admitted they could only see minor differences. We were all using 10x42 binos. I still think an older pair of Steiner 10x50 is the clearest of all binos I have ever looked through, but they are full-sized and quite a bit larger. I figure if you're glassing so far away that you'd be willing to spend a lot on binos, go with the cheaper binos and spend a little bit (notice, I said a little bit) more on a spotting scope instead. 

With that said, I drive Logan Canyon 4-5 times a week. I watched both deer and elk hunters this fall with their lifted trucks, huge tires, not a spot a of mud on them, wearing $200 KUIU pants, SITKA shirts, custom rifles, Kenetrek boots, and logos all over the back windows touting Swarovski, Zeiss, Maven, etc. They park along the HIGHWAY, and from their trucks and even lawn chairs, they "glass" while wearing their orange hats and vests and honestly think they are in the "wilderness" hunting! I'll stick with of old F250 beater truck, budget-friendly (yet quality) binos and spotting scope, Remington .30-06, a good shooting stick, and Cabela's boots, and budget friendly (yet quality) clothing. I believe in good gear, but I also believe that you reach a point that the name/prices don't make a big enough difference to justify the huge increase in cost.
I'm not trying to troll for responses, debate, convince, or argue my point. I'm just stating what I have seen and done in a lifetime of big-game hunting and have been blessed with quite a bit of success, the majority of it earned and some of it was just pure luck.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

There is absolutely a difference between top end binos and any model of Vortex. This is not debatable. Is that difference enough to justify spending $2000 more? That is up for the purchaser to determine. It hasn't been enough for me to do that, however. I own a Vortex spotting scope and like it just fine, but it is not comparable to the Swaro or others I've looked through that others have. It's also 1/3 the cost, so it works for me and my needs. 

All this said, I looked through some Swaro NL Pure 12x42s on the deer hunt this year, and I had glass envy. BIG TIME! I've never looked through a bino that compares to that before, and I've looked through a crap ton of different binos over the years.

I immediately started thinking about how I can save up to buy some, and then realized they are $3200 (before taxes)...and my dreams were shattered. That is A LOT of cheddar for the average joe to put out for hunting binos. But boy were those things amazing on the eyes.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

duplicate post


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I picked up a pair of Swaro's 10x42 EL's a few years ago at a discount price and when comparing them to my higher end Leopold's there really isn't much difference until you look at the clarity of the Swaro's. Most hunters will never know the difference and most can get along with lower priced binoculars. But never look through a good quality pair of them or you may be hooked on saving money.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I can flat out say 10x42 ELs blow away my 85mm Vortex Razor spotting scope in low light conditions. It isn't even remotely close. Side by side, switching immediately back and forth, ELs are brighter and clearer.

High noon, they are similar... but the ELs are just another step crisper. 

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> There is absolutely a difference between top end binos and any model of Vortex. This is not debatable. Is that difference enough to justify spending $2000 more? That is up for the purchaser to determine. It hasn't been enough for me to do that, however. I own a Vortex spotting scope and like it just fine, but it is not comparable to the Swaro or others I've looked through that others have. It's also 1/3 the cost, so it works for me and my needs.


+100



> All this said, I looked through some Swaro NL Pure 12x42s on the deer hunt this year, and I had glass envy. BIG TIME! I've never looked through a bino that compares to that before, and I've looked through a crap ton of different binos over the years.
> 
> I immediately started thinking about how I can save up to buy some, and then realized they are $3200 (before taxes)...and my dreams were shattered. That is A LOT of cheddar for the average joe to put out for hunting binos. But boy were those things amazing on the eyes.


The best thing about the NL's is it dropped the price of the ELs by about $1000

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I’ve looked through ELs many times in the field. They bring me a small measure of glass envy. Very nice glass. But I’ve never yearned for them.

It took me a total of 1.5 seconds, literally, to have MAJOR glass envy with the NL Pure 12x42. I need them. My soul aches for them! 

I think I’ll start a UWN gofundme campaign.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I spend a fair amount of time behind glass all year long. I've settled on 12X50 Vortex Razor binos and 20X65 ATX Swaro spotter. I keep pretty well up with my Swaro wielding friends and relatives. Like anything else the more you use them the more you can tell the differences.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

I have a pair of discontinued Athlon Ares 10x42 binoculars that I use as my everyday pair. They are good enough for what I do, but they are $500 binocular and my expectations align with such. They, like my sons vortex diamondbacks and many other budget friendly binoculars flatten out images with shadow and color. When you get higher end binos, the true color and depth really stands out and glassing for bedded bucks at distance in shade or brush is a lot easier. Even at midday when conditions are perfect, the alpha glass will stand out. That said, I haven't found that my use warrants an additional $2-3k spend on binoculars, yet. A good binocular on a tripod can make it perform better for a lot of people, and when used without a tripod hide a lot of its deficiencies.

That said, align your expectations with your budget and you won't be disappointed. But don't go into a purchase thinking a $500 binocular is going to perform the same as a top tier line like the NL Pure.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Justismi28- that is perfectly stated!


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

Where I really notice the differences in high end glass, is when you spend large amounts of time sitting behind them scouring the country. If they are only used to "confirm" what you have seen with your eyes, you won't really truly benefit from the best glass. Reality is, the mid level glass is really good and meets the needs and then some for most people. But...spending loads of time, sitting on the ground behind a good bino picking apart the terrain, you will really appreciate the best glass you can afford. If you are anything like me, you will find minor to major color differences, small folds in the terrain, notice things like a flickering ear, antler tines, or even a leg sticking out from under the bushes hiding our quarry. But most people walk past these types of animals because they don't see anything standing out in the open. 

Good glass, used correctly, makes a huge difference. Only you can determine if the costs are worth it to you. Like I stated above, I have thoroughly used the "mid tier" and "upper mid tier" glass a lot with success. When I switched to the Maven B2, it was like a switch went on. I discovered more animals. I discovered how much I enjoyed sitting behind my bino for long sits overlooking amazing terrain. They were great. Last year, I found a used Swarovski EL8.5x42 and picked that up. It is better for sure. Better color rendition, better details in shadows, easier to see small changes in terrain. Is it $1000 better? Is it $2000 better? I suppose that depends on the person making the decision. It will depend on the other demands on your time, money and budget etc. I was perfectly happy with the Maven B2, but haven't missed it since switching to my Swarovski.

Whichever bino you settle on, use them. Use them a lot. And then put them on a tripod and really really use them. You will be amazed at what may be right in front of you.

FH


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## bthewilde (Feb 8, 2018)

10's are all you need, you'll have differing opinions on brands and features, but overall 10's is the limit to free-hand in my experience as well (to echo a lot of folks here). You'll be glad you made the investment, even up to $500. I love my Vortex stuff personally, and am happy with the Razors. Don't forget a nice pack though, too! I noticed Vortex's Guide Pack was tit for tat the same as the Alaska Creations one, for $10 less so I ended up with it and love it.


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