# Is it just me or is this way illegal?



## byuduckhunter (Dec 2, 2008)

Found this post on KSL. Would this be illegal? This is rediculous! thoughts?

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad ... =249&lpid=


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

yea big time


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## byuduckhunter (Dec 2, 2008)

What is he thinking? "You pull the trigger and I'll punch the tag?...and take the check!" DWR should do and undercover bust on this guy :twisted:


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't think it is legal...I really don't care though if he does sell it...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

What makes it more funny is it is a Wasatch tag, the same tag Ducks Unlimited couldn't sell for more than $9300.00, LEGALLY! :shock:


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## Bergy (Apr 3, 2008)

If you disagree with what he is doing you should send a note to "Lance". I think he's smoking something if he thinks he can get anyone to buy this for 15K. :lol:


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

It's illegal on both their parts.

Maybe a sting operation. :shock:


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

It's all about the dollar,Could you see this happen down on Dutton. Some pro of non pro would probally string someone up..


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I see it's been pulled/nuked.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

So I missed it, was a guy trying to let some one pay him to shoot the animal he drew?

I don't think that should be illegal, btw, It ruins it for a guy who gets a good tag & wants to let say, a dad or son or brother, uncle or friend shoot the critter. Who cares who pulls the trigger as long as the tag gets paid for. 

I understand the need for management of game animals, just not the management of hunters.


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## Ryfly (Sep 13, 2007)

He wanted someone to pay him $15,000 so they could shoot the animal and he would tag it.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I give a ****. that still poching for who every pulls the trigger and it all so called party hunting. Im glad they pulled it and I hope if the dud does end up doing it then I hope they catch the sob. Let hope it was a under cover set up.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Renegade said:


> I don't think that should be illegal, btw, It ruins it for a guy who gets a good tag & wants to let say, a dad or son or brother, uncle or friend shoot the critter. Who cares who pulls the trigger as long as the tag gets paid for.


HUH? Are you joking? If the person who drew the tag doesn't hunt or doesn't want to hunt, why are they putting in for tags? The point is that when someone fills a tag for a person who otherwise wouldn't, an animal is taken away from the rest of us...it is like poaching. It DOES matter who pulls the trigger because animals are getting killed and taken away from the general public that otherwise wouldn't be killed!


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Renegade said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think that should be illegal, btw, It ruins it for a guy who gets a good tag & wants to let say, a dad or son or brother, uncle or friend shoot the critter. Who cares who pulls the trigger as long as the tag gets paid for.
> ...


Huh? What? what I said is right up there.

The problem with it is that the dnr gets pissed when somebody draws a tag and then sells it for 10 grand or whatever when they sold it for 200. If I buy a Shelby GT 500 (or win one), and sell it, no one gets pissed off. If a guy draws a tag and ends up in the hospital with a stroke, his son or brother or boyfriend or wife or whatever can't go shoot the animal-all they get to do is throw it away. If some knothead wants to pay a stupid amount of money for a tag I drew, who cares?

It's stupid.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

[quote="Renegade If a guy draws a tag and ends up in the hospital with a stroke, his son or brother or boyfriend or wife or whatever can't go shoot the animal-all they get to do is throw it away. 
[/quote]

You can turn the tag back in. You might lose your money. But they will keep there points and can draw it again then next year. I sure in the hell wont sell my tag if i cant go. I will give it back take the lose on the money and give the next guy/gal in line the tag and try again the next year.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Seriously, who really cares?


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

I understand that it's illegal, I just disagree with the law.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

bwhntr said:


> Seriously, who really cares?


+1


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

This is for all of you idiots that think "Party Hunting" is ok!

A very good freind and family member is probably going to jail for doing this same thing. He has two felony counts against him and four misdemeanors. Party hunting is highly illegal and you will be punished to the full extent for doing so. 
This guy thought he could hunt with his freinds tag now faces jail time and over 10,000 in fees.

Party Hunting is Poaching!!!! All of you that have expressed you feelings on party hunting and think it's ok, I wish you the best. The DWR is already looking into those of you that have posted that you think "Poaching" is ok.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

Allright, so now we have some stated opinions, can I ask a few questions?

I don't think anyone has argued that it _is_ illegal, or that it isn't poaching (since it is illegal, it of course falls under the definition of poaching), but,

(1)why is it illegal in the first place?

(2) How, specifically, does it affect the scientific management of game animals?


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

By the way, HJB, resorting to name calling in your first sentence is very juvenile, IMO.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Renegade said:


> Allright, so now we have some stated opinions, can I ask a few questions?
> 
> I don't think anyone has argued that it _is_ illegal, or that it isn't poaching (since it is illegal, it of course falls under the definition of poaching), but,
> 
> ...


1) the person that pulls the triger and dont have a tag. That CALLED POACHING and then the other guy is taging it.It called party hunting. That two law that would eb breaken right there.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> bwhntr said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously, who really cares?
> ...


You both should care. If we all didnt care. Then there would be more people out there doing this crap. It poaching and party hunting. I know you guys realy care just dont want to get up in on this topic.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> Renegade said:
> 
> 
> > Allright, so now we have some stated opinions, can I ask a few questions?
> ...


OK, we understand that.

Care to address 1 & 2? Or no? I'm just looking for opinions on the laws themselves.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Renegade said:


> dkhntrdstn said:
> 
> 
> > Renegade said:
> ...


I dont under stand what you want on 2?


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > bwhntr said:
> ...


Ummmm, no we really don't care. In fact I care soooo little that it pains me to even say as much as I already have. That being said, this is an extremely rare occurance and has no impact whatsoever to your hunting experience. One tag, one animal...like I said who cares. I must stop now the pain is too much...


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## itchytriggerfinger (Sep 12, 2007)

> Allright, so now we have some stated opinions, can I ask a few questions?
> 
> I don't think anyone has argued that it is illegal, or that it isn't poaching (since it is illegal, it of course falls under the definition of poaching), but,
> 
> ...


1) My guess is that "people" got upset when Joe bought tags for himself his wife, 2 daughters and neice.(that don't hunt) Then joe went up and shot 5 deer and attached all 5 tags. All while someone with high political standing (or a minority, the two groups are the only ones who have a voice) had a tag and was unable to connect on one deer. The fact that Joe got to shoot 5 deer and they didn't get one just made them made so they complained. (squeaky wheel gets fixed)

2)It doesn't


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

When the DWR issues tags they do it based on hunter success ratios. If 20 people were out there hunting on 1 person's tag they have a lot better chance of killing something that one individual. That throws off hunter success and if everyone did it would have some serious over killing. Also, i know of party hunters who accidently kill 2 or 3 animals because they didn't know that thier partner had already put something down. It just takes opportunity away from everyone else in an unfair and unmanaged manner... just like any other type of poaching.

I don't want the number of tags reduced while I am trying to get one.

The only excecption to this that I feel is ethical is: once an animal is hit or wounded by the tagholder I think it is ok for someone to back him up so that they don't loose the wounded animal.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I think I understand Renegade's question.

I see it this way. Yes, you have one tag, and one dead animal when all is done. So the biology of it is all the same. The animal does not know who killed it. Dead is dead. So in that regard, there is no scientific basis for either allowing this practice, or not allowing it. So the reason must be something else. 

The over all reason I see is a simple application of what is called "Rule of Law." The idea is that in our society, most people recognize the necessity of following the laws we have in order for us to more or less get along. In all my life, I've NEVER been checked by a game warden of any sort for my lisence or tags. But I still comply because it is important.

The law in this case that would be broken is shooting a elk without being authorized to do so. Poaching. The reason tags are required is to manage the size of game herds in a way that hopefully keeps populations stable and sustainable. These laws requiring one to obtain a lisence were instituted because decades ago, hunters refused to exercise any kind of restraint and hunted most of our game populations to the brink of extinction. Bison. Pronghorn. Elk. Deer. All were hunted to near elimination. So to keep from totally wiping out our game herds, hunting seasons were created, and with that came a lisence. As hunters, we get that. We realize now more than ever the importance of not over-harvesting game. And we accept the lisence/tag system within our rule of law.

When people step outside of that system, they are ignoring the rule of law. As such, if everyone did that, then the need to have a tag disappears and overharvest will ocur, hurting everyone. There are all sorts of fairness and equality arguments that could be made - and are valid. But simply ignoring the rule of law is what this comes down to. 

So one more thing - a bit of a comparison. My 10 year old daughter wants to drive my car. So I could just put her behind the wheel and away we'll go. I have a lisence, and it is only one car on the road so technically, its just the same as if I were driving. Right? :wink:


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

My 11 and 10 year old daughters drive my truck in my pasture...maybe illegal or not, but they do! :wink: and they are pretty good at it too. :mrgreen:


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

bwhntr said:


> My 11 and 10 year old daughters drive my truck in my pasture...maybe illegal or not, but they do! :wink: and they are pretty good at it too. :mrgreen:


That's where I learned as well. But you wouldn't have them driving you through SLC on I-15 at rush hour.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

No, that wouldn't be safe...some idiot might hit them! Have you drove in SLC at rush hour! :shock: :mrgreen: 

I hear what you are saying...but for some reason this really doesn't bother me. Maybe I have a screw or two thousand loose...


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Maybe the question should be: Why is it illegal to sell your LE tags?


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

Renegade said:


> By the way, HJB, resorting to name calling in your first sentence is very juvenile, IMO.


Sorry but IMO, Poachers are Idiots!

Lets say you, your dad, and your brother all have LE tags for elk. You spend the whole hunt looking for elk and the day before the last your dad and brother leave to go back home. That last day you see three big bulls but your dad and bro arent there. You decide to shoot them all and load them in the truck and come home. That's Poaching! (That happened)

Lets also say that a few of your freinds decide to join the army and go overseas to fight. They decide that since they cant be there to hunt, you can go and shoot deer and elk for them while they are gone. So every year you get to shoot 3 deer and 3 elk, right? WRONG it's called poaching!

If this was legal, everybody would be buying tags for grandma and Grandpa sitting at the rest home in Wheelchairs. It's just not fair, and that's why it's POACHING!

YOU SNOOZE YOU LOSE


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Renegade said:


> I don't think anyone has argued that it _is_ illegal, or that it isn't poaching (since it is illegal, it of course falls under the definition of poaching), but,
> 
> (1)why is it illegal in the first place?
> 
> (2) How, specifically, does it affect the scientific management of game animals?


Hmmm....didn't I already answer that?



wyoming2utah said:


> The point is that when someone fills a tag for a person who otherwise wouldn't, an animal is taken away from the rest of us...it is like poaching. It DOES matter who pulls the trigger because animals are getting killed and taken away from the general public that otherwise wouldn't be killed!


But, I will answer your questions again...The number of licenses sold in any unit is limited. IN other words, if too many tags are sold, too many animals are killed, and, biologically, we reach a point where the herd is harmed. If party hunting were allowed, then a person could put grandma, grandpa, and great aunt edna in for tags and who are not that interested in buck hunting, or even deer hunting, but would go along anyway. Then, the one real deer hunter could shoot four bucks while grandma, grandpa, and great aunt edna sit back at camp. The result could be that three serious and dedicated hunters would go without a buck license that year while grandma, grandpa, and great aunt edna had tags but weren't interested in hunting. So, if party hunting were allowed, hunter success rates would increase and the total number of tags available would have to be reduced to compensate...or, in other words, if the number of tags were not reduced, the risk would be taken of killing/harvesting too many animals.

The bottom line is that party hunting is illegal because of the potential risk to a herd and because it reduces opportunity.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

To me this doesn't fall under the definition of party hunting. That is where a group, or "party", of people use all of their tags as a collective unit. So if I was party hunting and saw a group of 3 bucks, I would shoot them all and use the party's tags on them. 

This situation where a dude is selling his tag is definitely illegal, because you cannot transfer ownership of a tag. The reason transfer of tags is against the law should be obvious to everyone who has ever been unsuccessful in the drawing. It's true that one incidence of this would make no difference to me or the wildlife. But if he can do it, then I should be able to as well! It should be no crime for me to have all my friends applying for tags, which I could then use for myself. Quite a few people do this right now, and it is prohibited. If it were legal, getting a tag would depend on how many friends and family you have, and how much money you have. The laws allow a hunter to get a tag because HE is a hunter. I am in favor of much stricter laws regarding transfer of tags. Hunting on someone else's tag is poaching, and should be punished just as though you had filled that tag.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

LOTS OF GREAT POINTS!!!!!

I don't see this as "party hunting" either, this specific case was one guy with one tag allowing one person to shoot the animal for a fee to use that tag.

So I guess my next (or corrected) question is, why is it illegal to sell your LE tag to some other individual if you want to, or give it away to another individual if you choose to do so?

The DNR does it all the time, through conservation orgs, Governor tags, etc. Why not you?


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

HJB said:


> Renegade said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, HJB, resorting to name calling in your first sentence is very juvenile, IMO.
> ...


Oh, I thought you were talking about some people in this thread, my bad.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

If there are Party Hunters posting on this thread, then yes I am talking about them.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

El Matador said:


> This situation where a dude is selling his tag is definitely illegal, because you cannot transfer ownership of a tag. The reason transfer of tags is against the law should be obvious to everyone who has ever been unsuccessful in the drawing. It's true that one incidence of this would make no difference to me or the wildlife. But if he can do it, then I should be able to as well! It should be no crime for me to have all my friends applying for tags, which I could then use for myself. Quite a few people do this right now, and it is prohibited. If it were legal, getting a tag would depend on how many friends and family you have, and how much money you have. The laws allow a hunter to get a tag because HE is a hunter. I am in favor of much stricter laws regarding transfer of tags. Hunting on someone else's tag is poaching, and should be punished just as though you had filled that tag.


I'm not saying I support selling a drawn tag, but how is that any different than those who "point bank" so that they can draw a LE tag more often than others? The DWR ALLOWS this by having the system that is in place now. I "used" this loop hole to my advantage last year by applying with someone with enough points to ensure I would draw out, which leapfrogged me over several applicants. I know family/friends that have enough points that I could be 99% sure of drawing with zero points for a great tag when my waiting period is over. I have openly told this to DWR higher ups, and yet NOTHING has been done to address this. Just food for thought.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Pro that differnt. im fine with that. You are not letting them shoot your elk for you and you are tagging it. I dont care how you get the tag asl ong as you are the one shooting it and tagging it.I dont care if you pay 60,0000 for a dam elk tag.


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## byuduckhunter (Dec 2, 2008)

I thought DWR semi took care of the point banking problem by making it if one person in a group application gives up their tag than everyone has to? 

I think if this were not illegal you would get people (well, even more people :roll: ) who would look at big game as their own investment. Think of it. If you could put in for 10-12 years and then sell it fo 10K that's a pretty good return on a fairly small investment. Then you would get non-hunters in the application pool who have no intention of applying but just to sell the tag. Basically, it would make it harder for the average Joe (who couldn't spend 10K on an elk) to ever draw a tag. Anyway, it's been interesting to see everyone's opinions. :mrgreen:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

byuduckhunter said:


> I thought DWR semi took care of the point banking problem by making it if one person in a group application gives up their tag than everyone has to?


That does NOT stop point banking, just changes how it is done.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

byuduckhunter said:


> I thought DWR semi took care of the point banking problem by making it if one person in a group application gives up their tag than everyone has to?


Yea if one person in your group give back there tag the rest of you have to inless you dont want your points back.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Well I certainly agree that point banking is wrong. You're asking how it's different from transferring a LE tag? The underlying motivation for each crime would be predominantly the same - to increase your own odds of getting one of those coveted tags. And it is true that there are legal ways of point banking. I'm glad they changed the policy on surrendering tags though, that is a big step in the right direction. And it should really help with the problem in the General drawing. It is probably impossible to eliminate point bankers altogether, but the existing laws really limit the extent to which one person can cheat to get a tag. You can probably get away with some conspiring within your own family but that's about it. I'm sure there are thousands of guys who put their wives and kids in for the hunt, with every intention of shooting the animal themselves. Even if the wife or kid comes on the hunt. Clearly such behavior is already illegal but you can't enforce the law unless you are there to see who pulled the trigger.

PRO, your situation is interesting. You could say that you cheated to get a few extra points in the drawing, but at the same time another hunter had to willingly sacrifice some of his points. I see nothing wrong with the way a group's points are averaged, provided that each member of the group plans on hunting. Now up until they changed the rules last year that was being abused for sure. Apply with somebody that has max points (who may not even like to hunt), get a tag, and then have him surrender his tag to have his points restored for next time.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2009)

Hey! I have a LE Dutton early rifle bull tag for sale for $50,000. Send me your name, address, and ss#. You can shoot the elk and i will punch the tag with your name on it for another $10. Boy, that kinda puts things into perspective doesn't it. And to think its all perfectly legal! Why would you think there's no possible way the wasatch tag isn't legit? Mine is!


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

So let us be clear on this. It's OK for a CWMU to charge whatever they can get for a tag, but a regular Joe can't. Explain the difference? As to party hunting, Renegade never brought this up in his original post, but some here wanted to infer that he did. Party hunting does have it's place in some areas, like Wis. and Minn. The deer numbers can and do exceed healthy numbers, thus the reason it is encouraged there. Do you consider those people poachers?


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

richardjb said:


> So let us be clear on this. It's OK for a CWMU to charge whatever they can get for a tag, but a regular Joe can't. Explain the difference?


 A CWMU owns and manages the land that the animals live on. The Goverment (DWR) owns the LE land that the public animals live on.
A CWMU owner makes his rules, and the goverment makes the rules for the public land. That's the difference, and we need to follow the rules that we are given.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

Actually, the people own the land and the animals-the government was founded to be subservient to the people-this is not a case of the government managing land or animals, it the government managing the 2 individuals who want to make a transaction that is no different than a CMWU operator.

Look at it this way, a tag is basically a lease agreement giving you a set period of time to shott an animal within a specific area-on public or private land (as long as you have landowner permission.

People with oil or mineral leases from the government have the right to sell those leases, so why not a tag?

Again, stupid, lame law.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

The land is ours to use but we don't own it, if I owned the land I would have quite a few cabins in some of my favorite places. 
The Goverment owns and regulates everything. They set the rules and it's our job to follow them whether we like it or not.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

Interesting opinion.

It's completely wrong on the ownership part, but somewhat correct on the law (rules) part.

Read up on "Representative Republic". Then check the Declaration of independence and the bill of rights, for further reading, check out the US constitution.

Then you'll know who owns the land.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

Tell you what, you believe whatever you want. The fact is the Goverment can do whatever they want with "Your" land. One day you are out hunting on it and the next day it turns into a CWMU. We are losing tons of "Your" property to development and do you think they are going to ask us if it's ok take it away??? Nope.
It's all politics when it comes to land ownership and game managment. The Goverment always reaps the rewards. You can't control "your" land or "your" animals. Hell, you can't even put a trail cam up anymore without the Forest service taking it down. Does the Forest Service ask you if they can tamper with your possesions? Nope. Guess why? Cause you don't own the property, the goverment does and they consider your possesions litter on thier property. 
Are you seeing my point yet? Obama owns you and all your hunting rights and privledges are in his hands. Soon he will try to take away our guns and in the future he will probably tax us to hunt. Who knows, maybe he will sell all the public land to developers to get us somewhat out of debt.
IMO B.O. Stinks!!!!


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

HJB, this is exactly why people like us are at odds with people like you. You have given up your rights to manage our lands to the feds and state. ALL PUBIC LANDS belong to all US residents. PERIOD! The Fed is ONLY authorized to act on our behalf. The STATE is ONLY authorized to act in our behalf. What parts of the constitution are you cloudy on? Next thing you will say is we need a permit to speak our mind? You gave a fathers response to a child on why I shouldn't be able to do with my tag as I see fit. You basically said," Because the State said so!." How lame is that? You gave no management reason to your answer. Again,I ask, Why can't I give my tag to an individual, be it that, that person get it for free, because I would like to see a disabled kid or adult hunt before they die or if I would like to benefit myself by selling it to the highest bidder on E-bay. Who in your honest opinion loses in these cases? Please reread this a couple times, to see I'm only asking honest questions.


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## Dekashika (Oct 23, 2007)

> by richardjb on Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:31 pm
> 
> HJB, this is exactly why people like us are at odds with people like you. You have given up your rights to manage our lands to the feds and state. ALL PUBIC LANDS belong to all US residents. PERIOD! The Fed is ONLY authorized to act on our behalf. The STATE is ONLY authorized to act in our behalf. What parts of the constitution are you cloudy on? Next thing you will say is we need a permit to speak our mind? You gave a fathers response to a child on why I shouldn't be able to do with my tag as I see fit. You basically said," Because the State said so!." How lame is that? You gave no management reason to your answer. Again,I ask, Why can't I give my tag to an individual, be it that, that person get it for free, because I would like to see a disabled kid or adult hunt before they die or if I would like to benefit myself by selling it to the highest bidder on E-bay. Who in your honest opinion loses in these cases? Please reread this a couple times, to see I'm only asking honest questions.richardjb


Well stated, and excellent points.


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

BUMP! This is not a trick question!


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

The United States is a Representative Republic, that means we the people choose our represtatives to represent our collective laws, rules, regs, etc. 

For obvious reasons, you can't put a cabin on our public land, that has got to be the lamest argument I've ever read, BTW. I don't really want 45,000 trail cams up in the Uintas. I don't want your cabin up there, I don't want to find your wheeler 2 miles off the road, and I don't want to see your tree stand out there either. All of those things represent land management for public lands.

Not being able to transfer a tag to another person is retarded at best, it benefits no one at all, not the tag holder, not the guy who actually wants the tag, not the animal, not hunters collectively.

Some of us actually participate in this wonderful experiment in self-government-we write, call, email our reps and let them know what we expect from them in return for our support.

Some apathetic people don't.

Don't worry, the rest of us are looking out for you.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

My point is the Goverment controls everything. When rules are set, we must follow them. To argue a law that is set in stone and considered poaching, is just plain stupid. You need to accept that when a person draws a tag, he/she is the only one that can shoot the animal. That is the law and none of you are ever going to be able to change it. 
There are other ways for a handicap person to obtain a tag, you don't have to go past the law to make sure they can shoot something. Have them put in for the tag, or find a CWMU or property that will accomodate handicap people. That was a stupid excuse to make it "OK" to poach for a handicap person, You should be ashamed of yourself.

The fact is, you all need to shut up and obey the law! You would be surprized how much our herds would grow and habitat thrive, if people would just obey the dang laws and do what's right. Instead, you have people like yourselves that snake through the laws and do little things that you think wont make a difference. You're wrong, it all makes a difference in the long run.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

richardjb said:


> HJB, this is exactly why people like us are at odds with people like you. You have given up your rights to manage our lands to the feds and state. ALL PUBIC LANDS belong to all US residents. PERIOD! The Fed is ONLY authorized to act on our behalf. The STATE is ONLY authorized to act in our behalf. What parts of the constitution are you cloudy on? Next thing you will say is we need a permit to speak our mind? You gave a fathers response to a child on why I shouldn't be able to do with my tag as I see fit. You basically said," Because the State said so!." How lame is that? You gave no management reason to your answer. Again,I ask, Why can't I give my tag to an individual, be it that, that person get it for free, because I would like to see a disabled kid or adult hunt before they die or if I would like to benefit myself by selling it to the highest bidder on E-bay. Who in your honest opinion loses in these cases? Please reread this a couple times, to see I'm only asking honest questions.


You want a managment answer? Ok
Lets say a guy that has no job and spends 100% of his time in the mountains gets a tag foir himself. All of his friends and family don't have very much time to hunt so they just transfer their tags to him so he can shoot an animal for them. This guy knows the area so well that he knows where many trophy bull elk are (Kinda like Doyle). So this guy has 20 tags and can kill 20 elk. He knows where the biggest elk on the unit are and every year he kills all the big bulls. As a result smaller bulls start rounding up the herd and breeding cows. Now the trophy quality has dropped a little bit. So instead of a few guys getting out and being thrilled with a 320 bull, you have guys setting standards of 360 bulls every year. After a while you will see the quality start to drop.
Our herds our managed for this, the DWR knows that there is not a 100% success rate on hunts because you have a vareity of different hunters with tough schedules,low standards, and only a few days to hunt. If you had 100 Mossbacks on every unit every year, we would be in big trouble.
So party hunting can and will affect the herds. There are plenty of other examples that I'm sure a fish and game officer could tell you about.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Scenario #1 4 guys each has a tag one guy shoots all four deer this is wrong and is detrimental to the herd management plan. I agree this should be illegal because it affects the herd negatively and reduces opportunity for other hunters because by the averages only two of those tags would have been filled.

Scenario #2 A guy draws a prized tag but cannot hunt for whatever reason and currently his only option is to surrender the tag. I think this should be changed he should be able to give or sell the tag to whomever he chooses. Nobody gets hurt the herd is not affected and everybody has the same opportunity.

Scenario #3 A guy draws a tag he goes hunting and his kid tags along.The moment of truth arrives the guy decides to let the kid squeeze the trigger. Under the current law it is a violation but I believe this should also be changed for the same reasons as in #2.


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> Scenario #1 4 guys each has a tag one guy shoots all four deer this is wrong and is detrimental to the herd management plan. I agree this should be illegal because it affects the herd negatively and reduces opportunity for other hunters because by the averages only two of those tags would have been filled.
> 
> Scenario #2 A guy draws a prized tag but cannot hunt for whatever reason and currently his only option is to surrender the tag. I think this should be changed he should be able to give or sell the tag to whomever he chooses. Nobody gets hurt the herd is not affected and everybody has the same opportunity.
> 
> Scenario #3 A guy draws a tag he goes hunting and his kid tags along.The moment of truth arrives the guy decides to let the kid squeeze the trigger. Under the current law it is a violation but I believe this should also be changed for the same reasons as in #2.


I have to agree with all three of your answers for here in Utah. Some folks seem bent on putting more into my post than is already there. If the rules say one animal for one person, so be it. I should be the one that has the choice to let another person fill the tag, as long as no one else is hunting.ONE TAG-ONE HUNTER. Party hunting would not be good in this state. The states I mentioned it works good in, works because F&G give out unlimited tags. They want excess deer taken.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> Scenario #1 4 guys each has a tag one guy shoots all four deer this is wrong and is detrimental to the herd management plan. I agree this should be illegal because it affects the herd negatively and reduces opportunity for other hunters because by the averages only two of those tags would have been filled.
> 
> Scenario #2 A guy draws a prized tag but cannot hunt for whatever reason and currently his only option is to surrender the tag. I think this should be changed he should be able to give or sell the tag to whomever he chooses. Nobody gets hurt the herd is not affected and everybody has the same opportunity.
> 
> Scenario #3 A guy draws a tag he goes hunting and his kid tags along.The moment of truth arrives the guy decides to let the kid squeeze the trigger. Under the current law it is a violation but I believe this should also be changed for the same reasons as in #2.


+1


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

richardjb said:


> luv2fsh&hnt said:
> 
> 
> > Scenario #1 4 guys each has a tag one guy shoots all four deer this is wrong and is detrimental to the herd management plan. I agree this should be illegal because it affects the herd negatively and reduces opportunity for other hunters because by the averages only two of those tags would have been filled.
> ...


1000% Agreement here!


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

If you change the law so some kid can shoot his dad's deer, then everbody is going to think it's ok to kill someone elses animal, after all what's the difference?
I totally understand that would be awesome for a kid to have that chance, but the law says no. And it is against the law for "everybody" for many reasons. Kids have a better chance at drawing tags than anybody else anyway, so put your kids in for tags and let them shoot their own animals. 

IMO, the laws are in place for a reason and don't need to be changed. I do however think there should be some way to transfer a tag to someone else, but that is different than handing a rifle to someone else.


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

You say this law is in place for MANY reasons. Give us a few" OF THE MANY REASONS", in your mind. BTW, these are not laws, they are regulations, and regulations change all the time, depending on the needs of the game involved. Laws are passed by our state and fed reps. Regs are passed by un-elected persons. I trust none of them when they don't factor reality into the equation. Many folks just go along to get along. Not Me! Some say,WHY, and I say, WHY NOT!!! BTW, after rereading your[HJB} post I see a little ***** in your armor. Good to see you can accept some common sense approach to who may own these tags and how they can be conveyed to another person legally.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

I think a tag could be transferrable in certain circumstances, but the tag holder and the guy on the receiving end would need to go to the DWR office and work things out. The tag would need to be changed to reflect the new tag holders name. However, I don't think this will ever happen because the guy that really deserves the tag is the guy next in line in the draw. 
So one main reason for someone else shooting your animal is that they don't deserve it, they didn't put in the years of waiting and they didn't draw the tag. There is always someone else in the draw that was "Next in Line", and if he found out that the tag holder didn't want to hunt so he let someone else shoot his animal, the unsuccessful guy would be pretty pissed. If you don't want your tag, turn it in and let the next guy have his dream hunt
There are many other reasons that the laws (Regs) are put into place, many of them have been mentioned by the "Real Hunters" that follow the rules. Do what you will but as for me, I will do what I'm supposed to do.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You start allowing tag transfers you will see the draw odds shot to hell due to tens of thousands of new people putting in to draw a tag to later sell off to someone else.


-DallanC


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

Good Point, there's another reason the rules are set the way they are.
I disturbs me that there are so many people on here that think "Party Hunting" is ok and want to change the laws to allow it.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't think tags should be transferable in any way. The idea of letting a kid shoot his dad's animal is great and I don't see a huge problem with it as long as they are together and all of that. But, as it has been stated earlier, any tag transfer will open up a huge can of worms and be very detrimental in the long run to every hunter. 

Almost every day I hear complaints of hunters saying how expensive hunting is and how jealous they are of the guys that can go out and buy whatever hunt they want if they have the money. If you start transferring tags, its just going to happen more. People are going to see a way to make a few bucks, even if the law says you can't sell a tag - something will be exchanged for a coveted tag. As soon someone can make a profit off of a public asset, it gets ruined. I think they should leave it the way it is, let people draw their own tags, and kill their own animal. Bring your son along to experience it, in twenty years you can tag along with him when he kills his trophy.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I would be willing to bet, more people on this forum have "party hunted" or broke the law in some sort of way (letting their kids shoot their animal" than not. We all know or have hunted with someone who has. Not that makes it right, but it happens, every year. There is a lot of grey area in this discussion and am sure the DNR have their reasons for having the law the way that it is, where would you stop and draw the line? Poaching? Illegally shooting a prized bull elk out of season and letting your kid pull the trigger on a two point is NOT classified the same. Kind of like stealing a candy bar from 7-11 when you were a kid or armed robbery, they are both theft.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

HOGAN said:


> I would be willing to bet, more people on this forum have "party hunted" or broke the law in some sort of way


Just to be clear, "party hunting" is completely legal in some states. Utah it is not... but in a few other states it is.

-DallanC


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Thanks Dallan, but just to be clear also, I bet most members have done something of this nature here in Utah, where it is not leagal.

And by most members, I would say more members than not.

And by broke the law, I mean anything from keeping an illegal fish from Strawberry, using a worm in a fly only river, party hunted, let thier kid shoot their animal, or something as minor as anyone of those. Picked up a deer skull with horns attached while out hunting and took it home for garden decoration, all forms of "poaching". Nothing major. And that is why I am a member of this forum, to become a better outdoorsman, better ethics, etc.


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