# Antelope Slaughter



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

OK here's the deal. Out near where I live there's a spot in the road less than 1 mile long on Redwood Road. In the last 3 months 5 antelope have been hit and killed there. Two in the last 5 days alone. Is it typical for this many antelope to be hit by vehicles in such a short time. I am starting to wonder if vehicles are going to wipe out the Saratoga Springs herd that lives on the LDS welfare wheat/corn farm.


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## Spotnstalk (Jun 25, 2014)

That sucks. I've heard stories from guys working out of state about dozens lined up dead along roads where they were licking salt off the road and a truck came through and mowed them all down


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

LostLouisianian said:


> OK here's the deal. Out near where I live there's a spot in the road less than 1 mile long on Redwood Road. In the last 3 months 5 antelope have been hit and killed there. Two in the last 5 days alone. Is it typical for this many antelope to be hit by vehicles in such a short time. I am starting to wonder if vehicles are going to wipe out the Saratoga Springs herd that lives on the LDS welfare wheat/corn farm.


 If it is not migratory movement, then being attracted to minerals, specifically magnesium chloride makes sense. I've seen this all over the place.

I watched a UDOT truck on I-80 yesterday, pull a flat bed with 20 freshly killed deer in it. Most were hit in a few hot spots, the DOT guy beat me to them. They used to just use a pick up truck, now they pull the flat bed for that section of road around Coalville, because there are so many.

We have been using sand and salt for decades on the road, but it is the more recent use of magnesium chloride that draws in certain animals, and holds them near the road. I have put out various salt formulations to verify that it is indeed magnesium chloride that they are after, not just salt.

The need for magnesium is driven by metabolic disorders brought on by...........


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

The need for magnesium is driven by metabolic disorders brought on by........... AL Gore ? Never mind I am sure he ate at all


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

:-??


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> .....................
> 
> We have been using sand and salt for decades on the road, but it is the more recent use of magnesium chloride that draws in certain animals, and holds them near the road. I have put out various salt formulations to verify that it is indeed magnesium chloride that they are after, not just salt.
> 
> .......................................


Magnesium chloride is used as a drilling fluid. In Wyoming's Hydrocarbon Heaven waste drilling fluids called "Mag Water" (mostly magnesium chloride) are periodically sprayed on most of the gravel and dirt roads to aid in compaction and to minimize dust.

That must be why road hunting is so popular here. 

.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> Magnesium chloride is used as a drilling fluid. In Wyoming's Hydrocarbon Heaven waste drilling fluids called "Mag Water" (mostly magnesium chloride) are periodically sprayed on most of the gravel and dirt roads to aid in compaction and to minimize dust.
> 
> That must be why road hunting is so popular here.
> 
> .


Goob, I've looked into that some, after reports from people, and I see the trucks coming out of WY all the time. I love the piss on dust logo that the one company uses. Several people have seen deer and moose lick these roads after they have been treated.

They don't seem to utilize this source everywhere though. In my looking to see if deer were drawn to magchloride, I found that the right proportions, mixed into the soil and wetted out, draw them in the most. Just placing raw mag chloride will draw them in, but they won't eat it. Only after a few rain storms did I figure things out.

You find mag utilization in conjunction with herbicide exposure and use. The hottest spot I know for mag utilization is where a sprayed hwy intersects a sprayed pipeline right of way.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Goob, I've looked into that some, after reports from people, and I see the trucks coming out of WY all the time. I love the piss on dust logo that the one company uses. Several people have seen deer and moose lick these roads after they have been treated.
> 
> They don't seem to utilize this source everywhere though. In my looking to see if deer were drawn to magchloride, I found that the right proportions, mixed into the soil and wetted out, draw them in the most. Just placing raw mag chloride will draw them in, but they won't eat it. Only after a few rain storms did I figure things out.
> 
> You find mag utilization in conjunction with herbicide exposure and use. The hottest spot I know for mag utilization is where a sprayed hwy intersects a sprayed pipeline right of way.


They sprayed mag water on some of the main oil patch roads south of Vernal in the 90s. I don't know if they still do it there. I used a magged road to get to work for 13 years. It's waste drilling fluid and produced water. When you're drilling there's special precautions to keep the stuff contained at the well site. Then they haul it away and spray it on roads. If a big rain comes along right after application and much of it ends up in the river...kinda dumb.

At one time Uinta County WY used it on some of their roads in the southern part of the county. I don't know if they still do. There's no drilling in Uinta County WY these days.

I can't remember big game licking our magged roads; seen some cows lick it though.

.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> They sprayed mag water on some of the main oil patch roads south of Vernal in the 90s. I don't know if they still do it there. I used a magged road to get to work for 13 years. It's waste drilling fluid and produced water. When you're drilling there's special precautions to keep the stuff contained at the well site. Then they haul it away and spray it on roads. If a big rain comes along right after application and much of it ends up in the river...kinda dumb.
> 
> At one time Uinta County WY used it on some of their roads in the southern part of the county. I don't know if they still do. There's no drilling in Uinta County WY these days.
> 
> ...


It gets trucked in from WY, and used in several locations in N Utah, mostly private property.

I would not have known to what extent, and other details, had it not been for road side trail cams. Its amazing what shows up when you put cameras on the road side. Still no wolves, but I'm working on it.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Lonetree said:


> Still no wolves, but I'm working on it.


You can get all the wolf pictures you want here: 
40°44'55.69"N 111°49'6.76"W

-DallanC


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

DallanC said:


> You can get all the wolf pictures you want here:
> 40°44'55.69"N 111°49'6.76"W
> 
> -DallanC


:mrgreen:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Back to the original subject. 

A) Many of the secondary roads in southwest WY have magnesium chloride on them. 

B) There are thousands, perhaps billions, of antelope in southwest WY.

C) I spend a great deal of time observing antelope while working and playing in southwest WY.

D) I have never seen an antelope licking roads with magnesium chloride on them.

E) I have poor eyesight though. 

F) A lot of antelope are killed on roads in southwest WY.

G) Driving in open range antelope country with a beer in one hand and a cell phone in the other is challenging.

.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> Back to the original subject.
> 
> A) Many of the secondary roads in southwest WY have magnesium chloride on them.
> 
> ...


D) That's a good thing. Magnesium thirst is associated with declining animals, and specific conditions. But like I said before, I watched deer walk right past mag treated dirt roads, cross a highway, and then go after my magnesium licks. To be more precise, I was using magnesium chloride hexahydrate. Part of what I was doing, was setting up next to existing licks that appeared to be magnesium chloride concentration points from winter highway spraying(slightly different magnesium chloride again). By setting up different licks next to the existing licks, that were drawing in animals, we could observe preference. The idea was to confirm that it was magchloride that they were seeking, and not just sodium in the salt. As for antelope, we only had a few antelope on the licks, the licks were over 8000' in the aspens and timber.

G) I know, that's why I use cup holders.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Packfish said:


> The need for magnesium is driven by metabolic disorders brought on by........... AL Gore ? Never mind I am sure he ate at all


I bet ManBearPig needs the magnesium.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> D) That's a good thing. Magnesium thirst is associated with declining animals, and specific conditions. But like I said before, I watched deer walk right past mag treated dirt roads, cross a highway, and then go after my magnesium licks. To be more precise, I was using magnesium chloride hexahydrate. Part of what I was doing, was setting up next to existing licks that appeared to be magnesium chloride concentration points from winter highway spraying(slightly different magnesium chloride again). By setting up different licks next to the existing licks, that were drawing in animals, we could observe preference. The idea was to confirm that it was magchloride that they were seeking, and not just sodium in the salt. As for antelope, we only had a few antelope on the licks, the licks were over 8000' in the aspens and timber.
> 
> *Mag water is magnesium chloride hexahydrate. I was surprised to see how many uses there are for mag chlorine:*
> http://www.pestell.com/mineralselect.php?id=65
> ...



I just don't see big game animals, day or night, going after mag chloride on the oil patch roads in Wyoming. I do see big game using the many natural mineral licks we have here though.

There's only a limited amount of salt-spraying highways in Wyoming; a little bit on I80 here and there, and a few Wyoming municipalities are starting to use it.

Antelope are drawn to oil field roads here for other reasons. Certain plants that antelope love to eat can be found on the high-alkaline disturbed soils of pipeline right-of-ways and oil field access roads. Lamb's Quarter is one such plant; antelope love Lamb's Quarter.

.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> I just don't see big game animals, day or night, going after mag chloride on the oil patch roads in Wyoming. I do see big game using the many natural mineral licks we have here though.
> 
> There's only a limited amount of salt-spraying highways in Wyoming; a little bit on I80 here and there, and a few Wyoming municipalities are starting to use it.
> 
> ...


No one sees high utilization of Mag sprayed dirt roads, though some have seen it. Across the West it typically occurs at specific points on highways, where the mag chloride concentrates on the side of the road. Where depending on the animals you have a percentage that go straight for what is on the road, and a majority that target the concentration points on the side of the road.

Chemical analysis in WY, showed high levels of selenium and some other minerals in these road side concentrations of "magchloride". Which is where the researchers stopped. That's why I isolated the mag to test preference. I don't know everything going on with the drilling fluid, but it does not seem to be a major draw in almost every place it is used.

Selenium concentrating plants, love disturbed Alkali soil. And antelope seem to be able to handle the high nitrates and oxylates that accumulate in Lamb's Quarter. The same nitrile conversion has to be taking place in the rumen, but the liver probably plays a protective role in this, which makes sense why antelope can do this.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Despite all these really awesome theories the answer is as simple as water


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

LostLouisianian said:


> Despite all these really awesome theories the answer is as simple as water


:mrgreen: "theories", seriously you could not make it through a 6th grade science class. Let alone support the imaginary degrees you claim to have in wildlife biology and forestry. You did say you had those degrees, right?

So these sheep in Montana are licking water off the road, instead of walking a few feet to the river?
http://www.mdt.mt.gov/other/research/external/docs/research_proj/BIGHORN_SHEEP-HWY_200-2013.PDF

And these sheep in Wyoming travel over 1000 feet down off the summer range, walk right past water, to eat dirt.....because of water?
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2002/2002-Hnilicka et al.pdf

Animals get thirsty when they have too many osmolytes such as sodium build up. This is because the balance for cell osmosis is out of whack. Mineral "thirst" such as for magnesium, selenium, and copper work by very different means, though magnesium does work similarly to an osmolite, in that it affects passage of other substances through cell walls. This is not an osmosis process like with sodium, but rather a catalytic one, that does not affect a thirst for water.

And its not even Wednesday.......


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

And I thought the antelope in that area were getting hit by bumper to bumper cars because they were just crossing the road to get to the other side where their water supply is located. I highly doubt magnnitrtriglycchlorate is the reason. I've also seen those stupid animals during the rut chase each other right out into traffic. Never even slowed to lick up the dirt.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> And I thought the antelope in that area were getting hit by bumper to bumper cars because they were just crossing the road to get to the other side where their water supply is located. I highly doubt magnnitrtriglycchlorate is the reason. I've also seen those stupid animals during the rut chase each other right out into traffic. Never even slowed to lick up the dirt.


Bingo Sawbuck you hit the nail on the head. I almost splattered one with my suburban coming home from work Wednesday. Two does were chasing each other and ran right out in front of me, broad daylight around 5:15 in the afternoon. Lucky for them that there was no one in the other lanes because neither one would have made it through the traffic. Now let me further explain. We had VERY LITTLE snow here this winter and none of any consequence since the end of December. Their usual watering holes from runoff that normally occurs are all dried up. There is only one source of water right now. Now to those who seem to think they're licking the salts off the road. I am sure that's happened in other areas but they haven't put down salt in 3 months and we've had rain at least 10 days since then that would have washed the salt off the roads and onto the shoulders. The highway where they're getting nailed is 4 lanes wide, with an extra wide suicide lane and a shoulder on each side wider than a standard car lane with a speed limit of 50 and traffic there is usually going 60. The primary area they're getting hit in is less than 200 yards long. The area they stay in is surrounded by 3 roads totaling 11.7 miles in length yet no antelope has been hit out of the less than 1/2 mile "kill zone" and 4 of the 6 in less than a 200 yard area of that kill zone. After reviewing the area, the antelope had moved to the west side of the road from the east side because the wheat is coming up early and they're eating it. Now they have to cross the road back to the east side because there's no water on the west side. The area they are crossing at and getting nailed is the area that has no fences or houses to obstruct their path from the west field to the east field as exists in other places along this highway. There is another spot they're crossing in but at that area the road is only two lanes wide with little shoulder, THAT'S why they're not getting killed in that area of crossing, the road is less than half as wide at that point.

Now let's address the other poster. You young man are the only person on this planet that has his head so far up his anus that he could give himself his own Colonoscopy. Your arrogance, stupidity and convoluted dis-proven theories all amount to nothing more than drivel similar to the man made global warming hucksters. No matter what your theory is you are right and everyone else is wrong even when the facts and science prove you wrong continually. If it's hot, it's global warming, if it's cold it's global warming, if it's not raining it's global warming, if it is raining it's global warming that's how fools like you operate, if there are a lot of hurricane's it's global warming, if there are few hurricanes it's global warming. No matter the result even when totally opposite, the cause is always identical and whatever you as a so called "expert" declare it to be. That's how you operate and it's frankly getting quite old and very immature of you. When you show me the necropsy results of these SPECIFIC antelope and they have the specific issues you describe then MAYBE we can discuss it. However in case you missed that day in biology back in elementary school (since you also claim that you do not have a college degree of any type), all animals need water to survive regardless of what imaginary ailments you may think they have. So despite your best attempts at a diagnoses the only thing you are continually proving is that you're arrogant, immature and almost always wrong and you cannot stand being wrong. As my late father would say, "you couldn't find your rear with both hands and you'd pick a fight with a stop sign".

And it's not even Sunday yet !

By the way, read up on Occam's Razor and you won't be the idiot you're proving yourself to be daily on here.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

:mrgreen: As they graze in front of the "bait station" sign.

So the thread starts out with "is it normal for antelope to get hit crossing the road?" Well, of course it is. So I explain that migration and minerals are the two leading causes of highway mortality, but that has to be wrong because I said it.

LL comes in with the death blow explaining its water :mrgreen: I use the opportunity to support my earlier case while setting up my next post knowing what the response is going to be.

Like I said in a much earlier post, if it is not migration, then they are being drawn to cross the road because of minerals. We already new why they were getting hit.......uh, because they were crossing the road,. So the next logical question is why? Which is minerals, and biochemistry. Lost now says its not magnesium chloride, selenium, or copper, and being a educated biologist, he would know, right? He now tells us its water..........which they are drawn to, by thirst, which is driven by high osmolite(minerals) levels, namely sodium which is an elemental mineral. I could easily make the case that they were potassium deficient. So, like I said if its not migration, its minerals.

Technicality? No, that's how you bounce dizzy rabbits, that automatically go the opposite direction from you, off both sides of the V funnel down to the pen. :mrgreen:

Tell us more about your degrees in wildlife biology and forestry, I can prove not only my "theories", but the science behind them, you can't even support your supposed post high school education, by demonstrating a basic understanding of science.

Like I said its minerals and biochemistry.

Doesn't matter if its chickens or antelope, LL is still the punch line.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Yeah well, my dad can beat up your dad.

Stay on topic fellas. Respect each others opinions.

.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> Yeah well, my dad can beat up your dad.
> 
> Stay on topic fellas. Respect each others opinions.
> 
> .


I'm on topic, maybe some people should try supporting their opinions.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> And I thought the antelope in that area were getting hit by bumper to bumper cars because they were just crossing the road to get to the other side where their water supply is located. I highly doubt magnnitrtriglycchlorate is the reason. I've also seen those stupid animals during the rut chase each other right out into traffic. Never even slowed to lick up the dirt.


During the rut, huh? That would also not be caused by biochemistry as well, right?


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> ................................................
> 
> Now let's address the other poster. You young man are the only person on this planet that has his head so far up his anus that he could give himself his own Colonoscopy. Your arrogance, stupidity and convoluted dis-proven theories all amount to nothing more than drivel similar to the man made global warming hucksters. No matter what your theory is you are right and everyone else is wrong even when the facts and science prove you wrong continually. If it's hot, it's global warming, if it's cold it's global warming, if it's not raining it's global warming, if it is raining it's global warming that's how fools like you operate, if there are a lot of hurricane's it's global warming, if there are few hurricanes it's global warming. No matter the result even when totally opposite, the cause is always identical and whatever you as a so called "expert" declare it to be. That's how you operate and it's frankly getting quite old and very immature of you. When you show me the necropsy results of these SPECIFIC antelope and they have the specific issues you describe then MAYBE we can discuss it. However in case you missed that day in biology back in elementary school (since you also claim that you do not have a college degree of any type), all animals need water to survive regardless of what imaginary ailments you may think they have. So despite your best attempts at a diagnoses the only thing you are continually proving is that you're arrogant, immature and almost always wrong and you cannot stand being wrong. As my late father would say, "you couldn't find your rear with both hands and you'd pick a fight with a stop sign".
> 
> ...


OK, you're doing it all wrong.

That's not how we debate here. Please review the UWN rules and then follow them.

.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Lost

I went and looked up Occam's Razor, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor You should read it as it relates to science, rather than trying to utilize it to "shift the burden of proof in a discussion" especially since you get that part out of context, and wrong. You can not use Occam's Razor to discount already tested and proved science.

"The application of the principle can be used to shift the burden of proof in a discussion. However, Alan Baker, who suggests this in the online Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, is careful to point out that his suggestion should not be taken generally, but only as it applies in a particular context, that is: philosophers who argue in opposition to metaphysical theories that involve allegedly "superfluous ontological apparatus".[a] Baker then notices that principles, including Occam's razor, are often expressed in a way that is not clear regarding which facet of "simplicity" - parsimony or elegance - is being referred to, and that in a hypothetical formulation the facets of simplicity may work in different directions: a simpler description may refer to a more complex hypothesis, and a more complex description may refer to a simpler hypothesis."

I don't need to shift burden of proof, or simplify my scientific hypothesis', because it is already supported, and tested on a gross level, while the net outcome may ultimately be lowered, it can not be falsified.


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