# How much difference can a little bullet weight make?



## gregkdc (May 19, 2008)

I have shot the same rifle for about 8 years now and have never had a problem of any kind. The gun I use is a New England Firearms single shot .30-06. For ammunition I always shot the Remington 150 gain core lokt bullets and the gun has been highly accurate especially when you consider who is behind the rifle. I'm by no means a pro but I could at least consistently get within an inch or two of the bulls eye at a hundred yards. 
This year I drew out for an antlerless elk tag and decided it would be better to use a larger grain bullet for better sectional density and penetration. I went out to the range today with some Remington 180 grain core lokt bullets(same bullet just larger right?) and I could not pattern the bullets to save my life! Some where high 2 were really close and I don't know what happened to the rest. I kept thinking that my scope was broke but after the last 2 shots that where about 12 inches apart with a pretty consistent shot placement and steady rest I realized it must be the bullets.
Have you guys ever experienced anything like this before? And what do you suggest for a good bullet, I am thinking of just going back to the 150 grain bullets after all it is a cow and not as big as a full grown bull.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

A small change like that can cause a lot of different problems. For one the 180 grain bullet is longer and as you know heaver which equates to more power on both the knock down side and the recoil side. 
If I was you I would just stick with the 150 grain bullet. You know how it shoots and you shoot it well and it will do the job.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

A 150 grain bullet from a 30.06 will kill any animal in North America, big or small, if placed in the vitals.


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

Because of its higher velocity a 150 grain bullet has nearly the same energy as a 180 grain bullet out of most 30-06 loads. My bro killed a cow a couple years ago with a 125 grain bullet out of the 06. It was 230 yards by the rangefinder and it dropped right there. neck shot. And anyway accuracy is more important so if 150 grainers work good for you then use them. Ifyou want a more solid built bullet you can get 30-06 loads from nosler that have 150 grain partitions at 3000 fps mv and 2997 ft/lbs.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I doubt you can attribute a 12" spread in your grouping to the difference in bullet weights. 2 to 3 inches perhaps, but 12?? That's too extreme. I'd say you have something else, either a mechanical issue or flinchitis, contributing to your wide open pattern.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

It sounds to me like your rifle just plain doesn't like that load. Go back to what you know works.


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## gregkdc (May 19, 2008)

Thanks for the input guys it such an extreme difference in accuracy it is kind of hard for me to swallow. The only other possibility that I can think of is maybe the scope is not working properly. This seems unlikely though because I had shot the gun about 2 months ago. At the time it was dialed in and it has been in its case ever since without any accidently bumps or knocks, (at least that I know of). I will go back to the range with some 150 grain bullets and see how she does. It is also good to here that people have used smaller grain bullets on cow elk with no problems.


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## magpie (Aug 15, 2011)

Before you go back to the range pick up a box of 180gr Winchester PP. I have a .270 that loves 150gr Win. PP, but does not care for the 130gr Win PP. On the same day the gun will shoot 130gr Rem. CL 1-2inches and 150gr Rem. CL 3-5 inches. Each gun has its likes and dislikes. I’m not saying your 150gr Rem. CL won’t bring down an elk, but it is always good to have two or three brands and weights that you know shoot well in your gun. When shooting factory ammo, one is at the mercy of what is on the self at the time of purchase. Good luck!


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Could try something in between like the 165 accubond.


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## timberbuck (May 19, 2010)

Sounds like a scope problem, also are your mounts tight?

Are you running a quality scope? I have seen this problem many times with cheap scopes-it does not matter how it was shooting.

If you want to be sure shoot a group with the 150's again and if everything is good than its either you or the gun hates the bullet weight.


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

You need to realize that you changed the weight of that bullet by 20%. That is VERY significant. Am I understanding correctly, that the two 180 grain bullets that hit paper were about 12" higher than the 150 bullets? If so, that is not terribly out of the ordinary. As a reloader, I have seen bullets change point of impact by several inches just by changing the powder charge by a couple of grains.

If that is the case, aim lower on the paper and take three more shots. See if they group together and then if they do, just move your sights. 

FWIW, I absolutely HATE the 150 grain coreloct bullet. I watched one come absolutely apart on a small two point buck at 100 yards. Never again will I use that bullet for deer, and I certainly won't use it on Elk. In the .30-06 for elk, I would load 165 grain "tougher" bullets like a partition, accubond, or Barnes and never look back. If you are shooting standard cup and core bullets, then I would definitely move up to a 180 grain bullet. But....that is just me.

Good luck and remember, "Aim small, miss small".

FH


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## gregkdc (May 19, 2008)

I have shot the 150 grain core lokt at a 4 point buck less than 50 yards away, and the results where less than impressive. Sure the deer died but the bullet disintegrated and there really wasn't that much damage. To be fair I did shoot the deer through some sage brush so I never knew if the bad performance was due to the bullet quality or if it hit a stick. Either way I don't feel comfortable using them on a big animal like an elk.

Right now because of school shopping for the kids and my wife's birthday I literally can't afford to go buy a box of decent bullets, but next payday should be fine. I am thinking of going with something like a 165 grain barns tsx or a bonded bullet for more penetration. Last I still haven't determined if it is the scope or not, it is a cheaper scope but up till now it hasn't given me any problems. 

Last I did a little research on my gun and the manufacturer says that their rifles do shoot better with lighter bullets for the caliber you are shooting. I will keep you guys posted of the results. when I get some more time and bullets.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Don't change a thing on your set up until you try the 150 gr bullets again. If you do, you'll be lost and there WILL be a problem with things. Shoot it again, get a box of the same grain bullets, but maybe a different brand, and try it yet again. Maybe you can find a bullet with the same weight that performs better than the Corelokt. 150gr should be plenty to put down an elk. Just make sure its a good shot, but that rule applies to a bullet of any weight.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I have a 308, 300 Win, and 300 Ultra that all shoot bullets from 150-200 grains within 2moa of bullseye at 100yds no matter what the bullet weight, speed, etc. I think that you have other problems. I have handloaded for 20 years and have never seen things go this bad just because the gun doesn't like a load. Most of the time in my experience, the difference between a good load and a bod one is more like 1 MOA to 3MOA, I've never seen 1 MOA to 12+ MOA. Check out your scope mounts and scope integrity. Good luck, these things can be frusterating.--------------SS


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## magpie (Aug 15, 2011)

gregkdc.

You have gotten some good advice here. The best of which is to go back to what was working, see if it still works and go from there. 
If you are unsatisfied with the performance of the 150 grain Core-Lokt, I second Bo0YaA’s suggestion of 165 Nosler Accubond. You can pick up a box at the store just east of I-15 on 7200 south for a reasonable price. Only costs an arm, not the leg.  Nosler Custom Ammo.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

150 grains is plenty for a cow elk. I've killed multiple bulls with 130 grains out of a .270. Stick with what's working for you. Hit her in the vitals and you'll be golden.


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## gregkdc (May 19, 2008)

It is the scope!

I shot the rest of my 180 grain core lokts the other day and was having a hard time getting any groups less than 6 inches, but to be fair I didn't have a good rest.
In the mean time I made some bags out of old socks and rice with a little wood stand to put the front bag on. I was given a small plastic picnic table with legs that extend to a decent height for a shooting bench. So today I took my makeshift shooting bench out with some 180 grain winchester powermax bullets. I set up my target at exactly a hundred yards using a tape measure I bought from harbor freight and got ready to make a few shots. The bench worked perfectly and I was able to have a dead rest with zero movement. 
After shooting over half a box of ammo and becoming extremely frustrated with chasing the bullet hole around the target I got the bright idea that maybe I should see if the rifle will even group. So I shot 3 bullets in a row with no scope adjustments and that gave me the 3 hole group you can see in the upper left hand corner(about a 1.25" group).
[attachment=1:3j51gh9d]Photo0056.jpg[/attachment:3j51gh9d]

Next I adjusted the turrets 1 click down and 2 to the right (remember on this scope the clicks are supposed to equal 1/4" at 100 yards). My next two shots are the ones that grazed the top of the box! I should have been .25" down and .5" to the right of my previous shots and ended up way high and to the right almost 6" away! 
[attachment=0:3j51gh9d]Photo0057.jpg[/attachment:3j51gh9d]
I did notice that the turrets feel a little loose and think that something has gone haywire in side. The cow elk hunt starts this Saturday and I don't know what I am going to do, mostly because I don't have time to deal with this this weak.


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

The 150gr Core Lokt is more than enough for a cow elk. 

I shot a cow last year with my .270 with 150gr Core Lokt. I don't think it stumbled 30 feet before it fell over. 

Also try some of that new Winchester PowerMax or something like that, in the red box. They are pointed hollow points, about $21 a box at Wally World, I have heard good things about that ammo.


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## magpie (Aug 15, 2011)

gregkdc said:


> It is the scope!
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> ...


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

Because each bullet/load makes your barrel vibrate and whip, there can easily be variations in where the bullet impacts on the target - because of the point in barrel whip where the bullet exits. Sometimes you get lucky with various weights, sometimes you don't.

Certainly a specific gun may have specific accuracy preferences when it comes to bullet weight. Oddly enough, it has been my experience with several '06s that I'm aware of - including mine - that the majority of them actually shoot better with longer (and thus heavier) bullets. This may not be your case, but it illustrates what _can_ happen one way or the other.

I would certainly follow the above advice. Cheap scopes often act like teenagers, they keep secrets - sometimes about bad behavior - all to themselves and resist telling authority. It is hard to pry out the fact that the scope is bad. No brand is mentioned, but I would certainly stick to a known reliable brand next time. Check to make sure your lock ring on your occular (eyepiece) bell is not loose. With cheap scopes it sometimes pays to just leave them at one power setting. Or use only the highest and lowest and know where the impact is - if it varies (3x or 9x say). Cheap scopes can have adjustment lag or imprecision. This can drive you crazy. Good luck with that.

I have had loose bases and mounts also that made zeroing and accuracy evaluation impossible.

One fact that has me wondering is WHERE you are resting your gun for the tests. It _should_ rest on the forearm, but I certainly have seen enough people rest their rifles on the barrel - which puts the shots high and often all around - to realize that you need to look at bench technique.

Lastly, copper fouling will build up in your barrel and can eventually wreak havoc with accuracy. Of course it will affect any weight equally. So if your 150s shoot good now, it probably isn't that bad. Nevertheless, I would use a copper solvent, following instructions, on your barrel to remove all that. It comes out blue/green.



> 150 grains is plenty for a cow elk. I've killed multiple bulls with 130 grains out of a .270.


 What most people fail to understand is the relationship of Sectional Density to bullet weight. Because of its SD, a 130-gr .277" bullet is actually most similar in ballistic performance to a 165-gr .308" bullet. So, simply speaking, a 165-gr .277 ACTS like a 165-gr .308" _if_ bullet construction is the same. A 150-gr .277" bullet acts most like a 180-gr .308" bullet. Of course bullet constructions comes into play as well, but SD is a good way to compare bullets weights of different diameter calibers if bullet construction is the same type. 
It also goes a bit to explaining just why the 130-gr .270 is so successful - it _acts or behaves_ as if it were the 165-gr .308 bullet rather than a 130-gr .308" bullet.
And the 165-gr .30 caliber bullet is a very good weight ballistically.


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## gregkdc (May 19, 2008)

Thanks for the info guys I am going to try and get out tomorrow and shoot a few more rounds. The scope is a cheap simmons 3x9x50 I bought about 9 years ago, it may be an 8 point but I'm not sure at the moment. 
I got the 3 shot group without adjustments and then the 2 shots across the top of the box after adjustments. The 2 shots over the top of the box are about 2" apart so they are showing some grouping as well. That being said 2" groups at 100 yards are more of my normal. :O•-:
when I shoot my gun I am resting the fore-end on a bean bag so my rest should be correct with no barrel contact.
Last I will check the lock ring and make sure it is tight. I don't like the sound of adjustment lag or teenager acting scopes, but with that big of a difference between shots I think that is exactly what is going on. Like I said earlier the windage and elevation turrets feel sloppy and loose. I have never noticed this before and will see if I can tighten them up as well. If it is the scope you guys are absolutely right about not buying a cheap one, unfortunately when I bought mine I really didn't know what I was doing, lessoned learned. When you consider the cost of the scope and all of the extra ammo I am going through I could have bought a decent scope for the same price and I don't even shoot that much.


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## gregkdc (May 19, 2008)

I think that I should rename this thread "how much differnec can a scope make".

I went to c-a-l ranch today and bought a new scope. I had initially set out to by a nikon prostaff, but after looking through the prostaff and a redfield revolution I left with the revolution. They where both the same price and both had BDC reticles. The redfield was more clear to me and also had less parallax, while the Nikon seemed to be a little brighter. Also the recticle on the nikon seemed to go in and out of focus depending on eye relief, I just hope the redfield will last longer than the simmons I had before.

Anyway I took it out to the range today and got it sighted in. The first few bullets where a complete miss I didn't have it bore sighted and the cheap rings I was using were not going to do. I could actually see that the scope was not in line with the rifle barrel. I went back home and replaced the rings with a better set I had and went back out. It didn't take too long before I could hit the target at 25 yards at which point I began to increase the distance incrementally until I was at 100 yards. At this point I was getting low on bullets and was able to produce the 3 shot group in the picture. The hole on the left was the first of the group followed by a few clicks and then I produced the 2 holes on the right of the group.[attachment=1:17j82di7]Photo0059.jpg[/attachment:17j82di7]
After that I made a few more adjustments and fired at another target hitting well within the green of that target.[attachment=0:17j82di7]Photo0058.jpg[/attachment:17j82di7] Seeing that I was getting low on ammo and my wife would kill me if I spend any more money even on ammo I decide to call it a day and leave it as is for the hunt. All and all I am very pleased with the scope. I almost forgot to say that it was getting pretty late and hard to see the target with the naked eye but was crystal clear through the scope.


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## magpie (Aug 15, 2011)

Glad to hear you got it figured out. I have a Revolution scope on my Browning BLR .308 and really like it. Good luck on the hunt.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

The change really isnt that small if you think about it. Going from 150 grain to 180 grain is a 20% increase which is huge. Look up the ballistics of each bullet. The 180 grain bullet, although it creates more energy (more power to drop an animal) it is moving 210 fps slower. There could be a scope problem too, but either way I would strongly recommend you sight in your scope for the 180 grain bullet.


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