# 9mm better than 40 SW?



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Many police departments have concluded that they are: http://www.thebangswitch.com/the-fading-40/


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Sounds like officers need to spend some more time training, in a nutshell they are switching to the 9mm to gain 2 more rounds in the mag?


-DallanC


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Not worth the 2 rounds. Only takes one to the noodle.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

They might as well switch to a 22LR. More rounds in the magazine. Even less recoil. ......
Wait a minute. Doesn't knock down power and kinetic energy count for something?

They need to learn how to handle a firearm, and how to hit their target.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Interesing article and comments after the article. Thanks for posting it.


Personally everybody should have one of each.

I do gavitate to the 9mm or 45ACP because it was much easier in the old days to get brass. Now trying to get bullets and powder has become a pain in the back side...........


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Extra rounds goes along with the idea of spry and pray.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Extra rounds goes along with multiply targets........


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## Gee LeDouche (Sep 21, 2007)

Fishrmn said:


> They might as well switch to a 22LR. More rounds in the magazine. Even less recoil. ......
> *Wait a minute. Doesn't knock down power and kinetic energy count for something?*
> 
> They need to learn how to handle a firearm, and how to hit their target.


Obviously not or the 45ACP would be the clear choice..


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I never could figure out WHY officers dont carry .45's???

If I were a cop, I'd want a .45acp..With personal protection ammo.:grin:


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I've got a couple of 500 S&W's down at the shop. Plenty of kinetic energy and knock down power-----------on both ends of the gun.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

On a more serious note. The 40 S&W is a high pressure round. Comparable to the +P+ pressure in the 9MM and 45. More pressure means more recoil velocity to the moving parts, and a sharper muzzle blast. All this adds up to a side arm that is more difficult to shoot accurately than its lighter recoiling counter part. Most of the police officers that I have known, are not the firearms aficionados that most of us here are. They do not have the time, means or motivation to practice as much as we think that they would. Hence they are not as proficient with the more difficult round to master as the lighter recoiling one. 
From a more practical standpoint. Self-defense, duty, tactical, or whatever you chose to call the premium hollowpoint ammunition, in all calibers, is designed to meet the same FBI performance standard. In other words, there is no practical difference in any of the calibers. 
Kinetic energy and "knock down power" (as applied to sporting arms) are wonderful attempts to prove that my favorite caliber is better than yours. Neither really applies. A bullet is only effective if it disrupts the vital systems that keep the body operational. It will need to penetrate said vital operating system. Kinetic energy doesn't measure this. Given Newton's laws of physics, for a firearm to be powerful enough to knock someone down, it would also have to knock down the person firing it.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

I read a book called "Handgun Stopping Power" a while back. It chronicled hundreds of actual shootings with all the different calibers and gave ratings for each based on the number of "one-shot stops". The book was written before there was any real data for the .40. Of course 9mm had plenty, as did .45 and .38. 9mm came out ahead of .45 by a significant margin, presumably because the lower velocity of the .45 creates smaller wound channels. That was surprising to me, but it makes sense. After reading the entire book, I concluded (as did the author) that a .357 magnum with 125 grain bullets is about as ideal of a caliber for self-defense as you can have. A .40 comes very close to those ballistics even though they use somewhat heavier bullets. A .357 Sig is ballistically awesome. But take another look at the 9mm and you'll see it isn't too far behind that ideal ballistic picture. With the +P ammo and bonded bullets you're getting pretty close. Now add in the fact that a 9mm is easier to control when shooting a lightweight polymer pistol...not a lot of arguments against the good ol 9x19.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Any of the above mentioned cartridges will neutralize a threat if the projectile hits vital organs. Hence I think that it is fair to use the "other" factors when selecting a round. I have personally talked to folks who have used the 9MM, 357, 40, and 45 in self defense scenarios and all worked just fine. I personally chose to carry the 45 most of the time and a 9MM sometimes. I personally don't like the 40 but I have no rational reason for not liking it......I just don't. In my experience, I tend to shoot the 45 more accurately overall than the other pistol choices.-------SS


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> Not worth the 2 rounds. Only takes one to the noodle.


You hit it on the head except backwards; one accurate shot regardless of which round and you win. They have statistically shown that the more accurate round in these situations is the 9mm due to lighter recoil, etc. There certainly is no right or wrong, but I shot both and arrived at the same conclusion.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

Here's the thing about gunfights, no matter how good of a "shot" you are unless you've already been in a gunfight you have no idea how your body and mind are going to react and even the best shots rarely are accurate in said gunfight. It's like they say in the military, no plan lasts past the first round fired. Any of the rounds discussed, 40 s&w, 9mm with +p ammo, and 45 are all more than sufficient to kill a human being with a well placed shot, as a matter of fact there has been a lot of research done on shootings and one of the statistically deadliest rounds is the 22lr. Loke presented some very important points. I am a firearms instructor for my department and the 40 is a lot snappier, as Loke stated, which presents as a more difficult round to master for many people. 9mm is a much easier round to shoot and remain accurate due to the lower recoil. It's all interesting. Like I said initially though, everything changes when your in a no sh*t fight for your life gunfight. It takes several thousand repetitions to create proper muscle memory and extensive stress inoculation training to prepare the body/mind to be in a gunfight. Cops as most everyone knows are not on the rich end of the spectrum and spend as much time and money as they can at the range, unfortunately in most cases that's not enough. Anyways, that's my .02.


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## HunterDavid (Sep 10, 2007)

Having been in a real gunfight, with hanguns, I agree whole headedly with USMARINE! I worked for a decent sized PD in the Valley that at the time was issuing a Glock .40. We had to "qualify" twice a year with our duty gun, and not by the state's POST standards. I've seen Officers from other agencies come to ours and not be able to pass ours because the timing was so fast compared to the state's. I was in the agency's top 5% at the time of my shooting and still only hit 50% (1 of 2) into my murder suspect at 30 yards when he turned and pointed his weapon at me! Training is great, but when it's "live action" it's a whole new ball game.


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## stimmie78 (Dec 8, 2007)

If you want more rounds you could carry the Kel-Tec PMR30... 

In my experience shooting I prefer the 9mm over the 40. Granted the only 40 I've shot was my brother in laws duty gun, a Glock 22C. It hurt to shoot that.


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## ram2h2o (Sep 11, 2007)

Ditto to what HunterDavid said. When you are in a fire fight the adrenaline takes over. It all appears to be in slow motion when its over and you stop to remember it. That is why realistic training and shooting is so important to both law officers, military and even gun carrying citizens.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

Loke and USMARINEhuntinfool have it right.

While I have been a longtime .40 and .45 fan and have CC'd both calibers for years, the fact is that the ammunition industry has not been dormant. We have seen this with ever-improving premium rifle hunting bullets, and since the FBI Wound Protocols have been in place the bullet makers have quantifiable testing to measure their defensive bullets against.

Anyone who refuses to acknowledge this technology improvement and clings to the ideas of 1993 is hiding their head in the sand. I have had to evolve my ideas on this subject as well, and it has only been recently that I've got my first 9mms (_in addition of course_ :grin: )

With premium, especially bonded-core bullets of proper weight, the +P 9mm ballistic gel results are certainly about as equal to similar premium .40 and .45 JHP as is needed.
Switch to FMJ or less-sophisticated bullets and the results will swing back towards .40/.45.

So now you get into other factors that affect getting that bullet in the right spot and stuff.
Recoil is less with the 9mm. This means that especially in small, light CC pistols that the user is able to hit better. While I have never rated the .40 as "snappy", a surprising amount of people do. They would be better off with a 9. Control is important. This may be especially critical if a female family member may need to use your defensive pistol. Or a female cop.

Recoil is less with a 9mm also means that follow-up shots are faster. Once again, the smaller/lighter the pistol, the more critical this is. A control factor again.

9mm comes in smaller size pistols. This can be a major asset for those with smaller hands, or who want maximum conceal-ability. In fact the current crop of subcompact 9s are hardly bigger than many .380s, but pack a much more effective round. This applies to .40 as well as they take the same frame size - but once again, the 9 offers a round or two more coupled with more recoil control in the mini guns.
The Springfield XDS-9 will be easier to control than the XDS-45 and also the new XDS-40. And when you go from big pistols (Glock 19-15 rds vs. 23-13 rds) to subcompacts, round count is more critical because capacity is cut in half so you have a 9mm XDS with 7+1 vs. the 45's 5+1 for a critical-due-to-capacity double-tap more.

In normal times of ammo supply and cost, 9mm Luger FMJ practice ammo is cheaper so practice becomes cheaper - or you get more shots per dollar. This applies to reloading as well. Practice is very important so anything that reduces practice expense (and maybe fatigue as well) should be considered.

As far as LE is concerned, I think .40 will remain the dominant caliber. However, considering the fact that most cops aren't really gun guys and training is expensive, the fact remains that many cops would shoot a 9mm better than the .40.
And this applies to some of our family members too.
So if the right ammo that meets FBI Wound Protocols is now available - why shouldn't the 9mm Luger be considered? It isn't 1993 anymore.

But remember: a .44 Magnum will blow your head clean off!


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