# Bow Sights....



## KineKilla

Anyone here had the chance to try one of these?

https://gearjunkie.com/garmin-xero-a1i-bow-sight-review-field-hunt-test

What are your thoughts on this new technology? Is it even within the legal limits of hunting with electronic assist devices here in UT?

I have to think that most traditional bow hunters will view these things as cheating or that they somehow remove some of the challenge that bow hunting is loved for.

Personally, I feel that it would be absolutely awesome but would wait until the technology is fine tuned and adopted then the costs come down.


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## APD

i'd wait on this one. another company just came out with one at half the cost without the glass to break. i've only tried the garmin once in the store and while it is cool, it's also heavy, bulky and something else to break. 

it is legal in utah. but i'll be waiting until size and prices come down and the kinks get worked out.


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## High Desert Elk

I would have to say that I'm indifferent to it's use. I don't believe that it will make someone a better archer as the arrow is still controlled by the shooter at the bow end. It will, however, allow you to average more consistent arrow placement. As far as legality, only a state can determine that.

I don't do things like flyfish and bowhunt because of the romanticsm and primal connection some think it has. I do it because it's fun and take advantage of better equipment and technology when I can if I think it offers and advantage. I guess I have a misguided code of ethics...


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## RemingtonCountry

I was lucky enough to be in touch with Garmin, and was able to hunt with the sight last fall, and currently have three in my possession. I was also lucky enough to have an engineer who worked on this sight for years come out and hunt with me, and help me with any questions I had.

At first, I was incredibly skeptical for my fear of ranging a branch 15 yards closer than the animal was, or something like that. However, through my use of it, I have learned to like the sight more than I ever thought I would. 

I currently have the production Xero A1i on my Prime, and the fact that it can link to my Garmin Rino 750 and mark my position when I shot and mark where the arrow hit is incredible. I also love the feature that if you are in thick timber, you can quick-tap it to pull up "fixed pins" with all of your calibrated ranged displayed.

Another feature I like is that no matter how far you range a target, it will only display the furthest yardage that you have calibrated. This double checks that you have shot the distance before, and does not help you take a shot at a range that you haven't shot before. It is a FIXED PIN sight, allowing most shots from 0-80 yards. It is NO DIFFERENT from any other fixed pin sight. Once your range is out of the housing, you are done.

If anyone is curious or has any more questions, feel free to ask. I do have two demos that are not on bows, so if you would to shoot with them let me know.


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## PBH

KineKilla said:


> What are your thoughts on this new technology? Is it even within the legal limits of hunting with electronic assist devices here in UT?


I've already expressed my viewpoints on these in the "First Pin Placement" thread from a couple weeks ago.

Those sites are legal:
From the 2018 Field Regulations



2018 Field Regulations said:


> You may not use any of the following
> equipment to take big game during the
> archery season:
> • A crossbow (Please see Utah Admin. Rule R657-12
> and Utah Admin. Rule R657-5-11 for exceptions to this rule.)
> • Arrows with chemically treated or explosive arrowheads
> • A mechanical device that holds the bow at any increment of
> draw (Please see Utah Admin. Rule R657-12 and Utah Admin.
> Rule R657-5-11 for exceptions to this rule.)
> • A release aid that is not handheld or that supports the
> draw weight of the bow
> • A bow with a magnifying-aiming device.
> _*Please remember that your bow may be equipped with a range-finding device.*_


Like i've said before, it's this kind of stuff that makes me want to revert the other direction. I think I need to find me a recurve.

Bow hunting used to be about the challenge. Getting as close as you could was the main objective. Times have changed, and now the game is more how far away can I be and still make a kill shot.


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## KineKilla

PBH said:


> Bow hunting used to be about the challenge. Getting as close as you could was the main objective. Times have changed, and now the game is more how far away can be and still make a kill shot.


I guess it's just like rifle hunting then. It seems like many people want to be able to shoot animals effectively at extended ranges these days.

I imagine that once the long range fad becomes the norm, it will revert back to trying to get as close as possible again.

Things seem to be pretty cyclical that way.


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## PBH

KineKilla said:


> I guess it's just like rifle hunting then. It seems like many people want to be able to shoot animals effectively at extended ranges these days.


I blame it all on the Dedicated Hunter program. We've introduced a way for people who traditionally were rifle hunters to now archery hunt. Those people bring what they know (shooting rifles) to a new [to them] sport. Rifle hunters don't have to get closer than 100 yards. So why would they think differently with a bow? Bows 20 years ago didn't shoot that far, but manufacturers continue to make improvements to equipment (not just bows) to enable those longer, and longer shots. Is this a result of "archery" hunter request and desires? Or is this the result of "rifle" hunter desires?

My in-laws were never archery hunters prior to the dedicated hunter program. It was never even a consideration. But today, they focus primarily on the archery hunt - and it's only because the opportunity was there to enable them. They do it the same way they've always hunter rifle: they road hunt, and shoot long distances. They also kill big deer nearly every year -- their success is impressive. My personal hunting style disagrees with their hunting style. I attribute their style to the way they grew up hunting nothing but the rifle hunt.

FWIW -- they are the same with muzzleloaders. They purchase equipment to enable, then regularly practice shooting 300 yards +. It works for them.

on the flip side: when out hunting, no matter what weapon is in my hand, my first reaction when I see an animal is to stop and squat down low. My thought process immediately goes into "stalk" mode, and "I need to get closer". It doesn't matter how close I already am. It's frustrating when I squat to have my hunting partner put his gun to his shoulder and drop that animal before I ever consider doing the same thing. I'm a slow rifle hunter!


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## High Desert Elk

I blame it on hornography. It isn't enough to shoot the smallish 2x3 buck feeding at 35 yds because your buddies will tease you, so you launch a Hail Mary arrow at the 185" 5x5 at 90 yds...


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## PBH

High Desert Elk said:


> ... so you launch a Hail Mary arrow at the 185" 5x5 at 90 yds...


 90 yard Hail Mary? Nope. You'd go back to camp and tell those buddies about that 90 yard chip-shot, and how you practice it all the time, and that your first pin is 80, and that you robin-hooded one two weeks ago at 150. In fact, you crept up on that 185" 5x5 until you could nearly reach out and touch him....no reason to get any closer. Yep, 90 yds is nothing...


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## KineKilla

PBH said:


> I blame it all on the Dedicated Hunter program.


While this may apply locally (UT) I can't think that Garmin, a worldwide company designed and built their bow site just for those silly Utahans in the Dedicated Hunter program.

I'm also not 100% sure that this sight enables anyone to actually shoot farther than say a 5 pin would. It simply takes the fiber optics out and turns them into LED projections and adds that "cool" tech factor. Also, makes having to carry a range finder into your tree stand un-necessary.

I'm not speaking from any kind of experience here, just throwing out points of view and possibility.


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## middlefork

PBH, painting with a pretty broad brush on the DH?

I hunt with a group of 5 DH all of which were strictly archery hunters for more than ten years before joining the Dedicated program.

I'm not saying all their shots are long with any weapon or close, but I'm not aware of any shots that are taken where the expectation has been a hail mary rather than I fully expect to kill this animal with this shot.

I really think the whole long range thing is just the current style some people think is in vogue.

While a sight may help you aim it does not necessarily improve the delivery.


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## PBH

middlefork said:


> PBH, painting with a pretty broad brush on the DH?


no. Just rifle hunters that joined the DH. 



middlefork said:


> ... I'm not aware of any shots that are taken _where the expectation has been a hail mary_ rather than I fully expect to kill this animal with this shot.


 That's exactly what I'm saying. I don't believe any of these converted rifle --> archery hunters are taking shots they think are "hail mary" shots either. I think they take those bad, horrible, terrible, long shots fully well _thinking_ that it is a good shot that they can make because they target shoot at that range all the time.

To each his own. If this stuff fits your style, then go for it. I use a range finder when i target practice. But I don't bother with it when I'm out hunting. Too much extra crap to think about. Keep it simple. Get close.


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## PBH

middlefork said:


> While a sight may help you aim it does not necessarily improve the delivery.


In archery hunting distance is everything. That's what made archery hunting difficult. You had to know your distance. if you were off by 3 yards, you missed your target. Technology has changed that. Now you range your target while you draw back, and have a +/- factor of ~10 yards. Technology has certainly changed this sport.


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## middlefork

PBH said:


> In archery hunting distance is everything. That's what made archery hunting difficult. You had to know your distance. if you were off by 3 yards, you missed your target. Technology has changed that. Now you range your target while you draw back, and have a +/- factor of ~10 yards. Technology has certainly changed this sport.


No argument from me about technology changing the sport but then I was a late starter. I started with a bow with wheels and the sight had wire grids attached that showed how far the animal was by body size :shock:

But you are probably right the downfall of all hunting is due to the dastardly range finder taking the guesswork out of how far those shots actually are. :grin:


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## RandomElk16

I mean.. I don't think a rangefinding bow has anything to do with long range. Wouldn't an ethical shot mean knowing the distance and being sure you aim appropriately? Even the best of them misjudge short yardage. Technology may have made it "easier" - it also made it more ethical in some aspects. Don't tell me jackwagons with recurves or open site rifles didn't take shots they had no business taking. Then again, you could drink beer and shoot deer from your truck in the 70s.

So me using my rangefinder then shooting is no different then this. IN FACT... the further the deer the longer you have to range. This would likely be more convenient for short range shots.


Also - "Long Range" doesn't mean unethical. These bows are comfortably pumping out 300 fps or more at most draw lengths - throwing carbon fiber arrows with dang laser cut broadheads. 90 really is a chip shot for some. This "ethics" debate has a lot to do with personal opinion and is never ending.


But... I don't know anything.


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## High Desert Elk

90 is definitely not a chip shot for me, I'm the guy shooting the 2x3 at 35 yds, or whatever the heck I said it was. My comment was made for the guys that can't make those shots and think a sight like this will fix that just to impress his buddies.

As I also said, I will use tech when and where I can. If I want to feel the raw connection of man against beast and the authenticity of it, I'll hitch my team up to my wagon and take an 19th century vintage .54 cal Hawkins out...


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## bow_dude

I will throw in my two cents on this... I have been a bow hunter for about 50 years now, maybe a few more, started shooting carp with a fiberglass recurve a long time ago and graduated to big game in 1975. I am also a technology nut and will use anything that will help me. I enjoy archery golf and have a sight system that will allow me to shoot up to almost 300 yards. Mind you, I would never consider shooting at a critter over 60 yards, but I have the ability to do it. At that distance, it is a "hail mary" shot. My single pin slider sight has the yardage marked out to 160 yards, but again, the only time I shoot that kind of distance is when playing golf. The problem with shooting accurately at even 60 yards is being able to hit the vitals. Hitting a critter can be done fairly easily, but to hone in on a 10 inch target at that range is not an easy thing. My point to all this is, getting the correct distance is easy... hitting the mark on a live critter that can and does move is the gamble. Earlier this year I was shooting at a 3-d shoot at Hardware Ranch and the wind was blowing. My arrow was drifting as much as a foot on some shots and they were 50 yard shots. Technology will aid you in determining the correct distance, but you still have to hit the mark. That is ability, not technology.


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## taxidermist

bow_dude said:


> I will throw in my two cents on this... I have been a bow hunter for about 50 years now, maybe a few more, started shooting carp with a fiberglass recurve a long time ago and graduated to big game in 1975. I am also a technology nut and will use anything that will help me. I enjoy archery golf and have a sight system that will allow me to shoot up to almost 300 yards. Mind you, I would never consider shooting at a critter over 60 yards, but I have the ability to do it. At that distance, it is a "hail mary" shot. My single pin slider sight has the yardage marked out to 160 yards, but again, the only time I shoot that kind of distance is when playing golf. The problem with shooting accurately at even 60 yards is being able to hit the vitals. Hitting a critter can be done fairly easily, but to hone in on a 10 inch target at that range is not an easy thing. My point to all this is, getting the correct distance is easy... hitting the mark on a live critter that can and does move is the gamble. Earlier this year I was shooting at a 3-d shoot at Hardware Ranch and the wind was blowing. My arrow was drifting as much as a foot on some shots and they were 50 yard shots. Technology will aid you in determining the correct distance, but you still have to hit the mark. That is ability, not technology.


THANK YOU!!! Finally a Hunter that remembers hunting with a recurve or, longbow. Why?????? The compound wasn't available. You had to shoot instinctively and without a range finder. 40 yards was a "poke" back then.


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## RandomElk16

taxidermist said:


> THANK YOU!!! Finally a Hunter that remembers hunting with a recurve or, longbow. Why?????? The compound wasn't available. You had to shoot instinctively and without a range finder. 40 yards was a "poke" back then.


Not all of us are that old :wink:


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## Finnegan

I hunted with a recurve for 30 years, then took up compound archery for 7 or 8 years and now I'm shooting traditional again. The way I see it, high tech enables bowhunters to circumvent the process of building certain skills. A lot of bowhunters are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money in order to do that, which is understandable if the point of hunting is to kill something. On average, a novice trad big game hunter can expect to hunt 7 years before making a kill. But a novice with a compound can realistically expect to kill something in his/her first year.

I suspect the majority who read this are thinking that of course, the point of hunting is to kill something. But others recognize the value and satisfaction that comes from developing the skill set. Traditional archery is enjoying a big come back right now. There are more independent bowyers out there than ever before and companies like Bear can't produce trad bows fast enough to keep up with demand.

If a range-finding sight helps anybody achieve their personal objectives, great! But me, I have no use for such a device and can easily find better ways to spend a grand. It's all good.


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## APD

here's the less expensive version.

https://www.burrisoptics.com/bowsights/oracle


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## bow_dude

I think Finnigan makes some good points. I don't remember how many years passed before I Killed my first big game with bow and arrow. The skills learned from learning how to shoot a recurve before switching to a compound can be a great advantage. I doubt I will ever return to shooting a recurve for hunting though, but the lessons learned have aided me greatly in achieving the skill level I am currently at.


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## KineKilla

Ok, so now that we've covered the rangefinding sights what are your thoughts on single pin vs. multi for Utah elk hunting?

Any particular brand you all prefer and why?

I'm actually leaning towards one of the IQ brand ones am also a little curious about those that shoot without a peep sight.


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## middlefork

About 2 years ago I switched from a 5 pin sight to a single pin Montana Gold and I am sold on the single pin. Quite a few are using a 3 pin slider which I suppose is the best of both worlds. It is just less confusing to me with one and with today's bows easy enough to figure out where to hold if needed.

Sorry I can't help you on the peepless part.


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## APD

i like single pin sights for everything i do with the bow. i set it at 30 yards when hunting and practice everything from 5 feet out to 40 yards at pin location. i've grown accustomed to the cbe hybrid but there are other great sights out there. the iq sights are great for diagnosing torque issues. might be good for you.

i also can't help with peepless sights. i like more precision.


what is your current setup?


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## KineKilla

Currently, I have an Apex sight (3 pin) that came with the bow. I thought it might get me through the learning/training period but like most hobbies I adopt, I am already looking at "upgrades".


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## RandomElk16

middlefork said:


> About 2 years ago I switched from a 5 pin sight to a single pin Montana Gold and I am sold on the single pin. Quite a few are using a 3 pin slider which I suppose is the best of both worlds. It is just less confusing to me with one and with today's bows easy enough to figure out where to hold if needed.
> 
> Sorry I can't help you on the peepless part.


I went from a fixed 5, to the 3 pin Montana BG Ascent Verdict... Then bought the replacement single pin housing for it.

For me the 3 pin slider didn't work. 20-30-40 the pins were so close and I just couldn't decide. Should have been easier coming from a 5 pin. Got the single pin and never looked back.


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## PBH

RandomElk16 said:


> For me the 3 pin slider didn't work. 20-30-40 the pins were so close ...


I use a standard 3 pin set site. They would not work if I tried to set them at 20-30-40 for the reason Random mentioned above. instead, my set pins are 30-50-70. Hitting 40-60 is easy by splitting the pins. 20 is easy too -- in fact, I try not to shoot 20 because arrows are too dang expensive to be breaking them shooting at targets. 80 isn't bad using the 70 pin and adjusting for the added drop.

Really, the biggest factor isn't what site you use, but rather knowing how your bow shoots. Go put some arrows into your target. Repetition is your friend.

KISS. It's not rocket science, no matter how much people want it to be.


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## KineKilla

I’ll be putting arrows down range just as soon as I can. I’m still waiting to get the bow back from Humphries...hopefully tomorrow.

In the meantime I’ve been constructing my backstop. I’m hoping to get the top bar installed tonight and supports removed. Concrete should be good and hard now.


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## torowy

probably not useful in most spot and stalk hunting situations. usually there are too many branches in the way for a range finder to be reliable enough to be your only site.


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## RandomElk16

torowy said:


> probably not useful in most spot and stalk hunting situations. usually there are too many branches in the way for a range finder to be reliable enough to be your only site.


Wouldn't that mean branches would be in front of your pin site? Potentially even your arrow?

Then it would be an unsafe shot anyways. Or you couldn't range it with your normal rangefinder to know the yardage either.

Just a thought. Not a bad point to bring up.


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## RemingtonCountry

torowy said:


> probably not useful in most spot and stalk hunting situations. usually there are too many branches in the way for a range finder to be reliable enough to be your only site.


If you quick tap the button it brings up all of your calibrated pins, much like a fixed pin sight.


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