# 2010 waterfowl survey



## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

So who has filled out the new waterfowl survey from the division this year? 

Looks like the DWR is watching these and other boards pretty close with lots of the questions being about the hot topics posted on here every other day. I can't complain much not being from the Wasatch front and hunting lots of private land but I get the feeling they are going to get some interesting answers from you guys up north on this one :lol:


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

ya i would imagine with the questions about usage on the WMA's here in northern utah we are in for some changes down the road. Ill fill my survey out and hope for the best!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Here are some of the questions if you didn't get the survey: Would you support any of the following restrictions? YES or NO (this is for state WMA's only)

limit hunting to 3 days a week 
Limit the # of hunters on each management unit 
Limit the # of shells
Close dikes to shooting
Provide limited entry blinds 
Close additional units to motorized boats 
Close additional units to airboats 
Close all state management areas to ATV's 
Create a rest area on each area where hunting is not allowed 
Charge a daily fee to hunt each WMA


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

Sounds like California. Those poor buggers have most of these restrictions and waiting in long lines to hunt in a WMA is fairly common. I hope we never get to that point.
R


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## richard rouleau (Apr 12, 2008)

i thought most of the wma has rest area .why limit the# hunter on mangment area.i hunt clear lake a lot . you be lucky to see ten hunter there. i can not wait to get my severy.and if they do charge where will the moeny go will go?.how will pay to hunt at wma ?


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2011)

hope everyones happy that bitched and moaned about not being able to shoot limits every time they went out! congrats guys! way to make changes for the worst to a sport we all enjoy! my hats off to you!!


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

some of the dumbest proposals I've seen!! why does everyone complain about skybusters on the dike?? I'd much rather have those type of hunters on the dike than walking a hundred yards into the marsh and skybusting!!! that would be a lot worse...I'll say no to everyone of these!!


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

WOW. I can say the "Quality Crowd" is trying to make it's way in to Utah's Waterfowl.

Apparently The vocal minority has been in someone's ear and want to tell the rest of us what a quality hunt is. I'd have no problem dropping $5.00 to hunt every time I went out, especially if the money was earmarked for phrag or to be used to help our WMA's.

The rest is horsesh!t!!! 

Don't wait, start with the e mails to the idiots on the Wildlife Board now!!!

I've seen what this mentality has done to Big Game in the state and it's a **** shame.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

utahgolf said:


> some of the dumbest proposals I've seen!! why does everyone complain about skybusters on the dike?? I'd much rather have those type of hunters on the dike than walking a hundred yards into the marsh and skybusting!!! that would be a lot worse...I'll say no to everyone of these!!


Birds get injured/crippled from skybusting, and the majority of skybusting goes on over the diked areas. (IMHO) Most of these guys don't take decoys or try to get the birds in close, they just stand on the dike and pass shoot.
I would rather see a state duck/habitat stamp over WMA entrance fees. Also the money would have to be used for projects on the WMA's, or hell no I would not support it.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

these guys would cripple more birds and screw up more hunting if they hiked out into the marsh even just a little bit. that's my opinion, leave them on the dike, that's where those type of duck hunters belong, they have a lot less opportunity on the dike anyways, saves a lot of birds and frustration.


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## Gaston (Dec 6, 2008)

I didn't get a survey, but I would answer NO to all of those questions. We have enough restrictions ! Better stop all the whineing or the waterfowl hunt will end up like the deer hunt !


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

Anyone have the ability to scan the survey and post it up here in it's entirety? I have not received one, but would really like to see it. I hope I get one.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

There is a small group of whiners that keep bugging the Wildlife Board to make changes that will benefit *them* and *their* idea of what a quality hunt really is. Apparently, adding restrictions to the rest of us is their idea of improving the waterfowl hunting here in Utah. If you want to know what happens when a small but vocal minority gets their nutty ideas in front of the Wildlife Board, and the damage it can do to the hunting experience, just look at the deer hunt. I'm sure that the majority of deer hunters are not aligned with Sportsmen for Fish And Wildlife, but still these guys got the rules changed so that big-dollar guides get the most benefit. These whacky ideas can also happen in the waterfowling world. If you are not already a member of the Utah Waterfowl Association, now is a good time to sign up for a free membership. *The UWA will continue to fight against whacky restrictions that hurt the average duck hunter*.
R


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

R, 

Could you post a link again to the UWA?


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I think I'm gonna mail my survey back in with a duck breast attached inside, mafia style!! maybe that will give them a warning not to screw things up!!! seriously tho, who comes up with these ideas. just half of those proposals makes me think that the people running the things have no idea about hunting at all.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

The UWA website is -- www.utahwaterfowl.org
At the top of the page is a section that says:
*Welcome to the Utah Waterfowl Association. Please use the Login form to the right to recieve your free Membership. This will entitle you to our newsletter and Action Items updates via E-Mail. *

You click that area and you can register. If that fails, contact me, and I'll get the info over to the right person.
R


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

alot of those "whiners" are right here on this forum... i think we know who most of them are. if you dont, go back and read through some threads from a month or so ago... why we put up with those kind of people is beyond me. everytime they open their mouth with a "great idea" its geared 100% to benefit them and what they though would be the best solution. we all need to fight them and their small army, or like rjefre said, its gonna turn out to be just like what the deer hunt in utah has evolved into...


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## gooseguts (Nov 9, 2007)

Really?
I'm going to stir it up here I'm sure, but who here doesn't want a better
quality hunting experience! :roll: Most of the wma's are close to being shot
out after opening weekend! They get pounded the birds move out to the gsl
get pounded by the airboaters fly back get pounded again then they leave
the valley. Then every body wonders where did the ducks go :roll: Guys are
big lake out there is shrinking no water and the phrag is taking over combined with
increased hunting pressure and theres know where for these birds to go! IMHO if we
don't do something quick it's going do get alot worse before it ever gets better out
there. I Personally would mark YES on everyone of those except the last. That fee
is what are stamp and license is for. I'm all for a more quality hunt aren't you?
Any how, just an old duck hunters opinion. o-||


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

gooseguts, 

if you know where to hunt and put in some work on scouting than things here in utah are some of the best waterfowl hunting you can get on public land anywhere!!! people think you should be able to roll up to the parking lot and boat into an impoundment and kill ducks,, sorry but that ain't how it works anywhere!!! there needs to be a phrag proposition and habitat issue and that's about it!! we have it extremely well here! I think a hunters ethics course would also be a decent proposal!


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

wow... be careful for what you wish for. you want restrictions on what days you can hunt? you want restrictions on the number of shells you can carry. provide limited entry blinds at what cost? whos going to pay for them to be built and maintained? ohh lets take that $$ out of the phrag budget. sounds good to me. limit hunting to 3 days a week. wow sorry for the guys that have to work those days that they are open. why restrict ourselves. their are better alternatives. but not more restrictions of this nature. 

does quality=restrictions in your book?

also the flaw with the survey is they ask about closing WMA area to airboats. here is a news flash. no WMA has an area open to airboats.

i think they missed a few good questions to ask on the survey. i guess i will just have to write them in the comments area.


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## diverfreak (May 11, 2008)

Darin Noorda said:


> wow... be careful for what you wish for. you want restrictions on what days you can hunt? you want restrictions on the number of shells you can carry. provide limited entry blinds at what cost? whos going to pay for them to be built and maintained? ohh lets take that $$ out of the phrag budget. sounds good to me. limit hunting to 3 days a week. wow sorry for the guys that have to work those days that they are open. why restrict ourselves. their are better alternatives. but not more restrictions of this nature.
> 
> does quality=restrictions in your book?
> 
> ...


You forgot this one.

Create a rest area on each area where hunting is not allowed

If hunting is not allowed in an area, then wouldnt that justify it as a rest area? If mine shows up i will wipe my butt with it then send it to Paddler!!!

DiverFreak


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

dont forget that many of us who are affiliated with the few different associations around will be participating in a private survey. it is labeled 2011 Utah Watefowl Hunting Survey. dont confuse this one with the survey that is from the division. those who replied to the UWA email blast about the survey will be getting that info here soon. This survey is sanctioned by groups like the UWA and the Utah Wetlands Foundation.


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## gooseguts (Nov 9, 2007)

Don't get me wrong here guys, I too have worked my "a%$" off to go shoot a duck!
I'm not asking for a drive inn hunt experience. I also believe we have some of
the most beautiful wma's in the country! I also admit I lease land to have that
quality experience I can't get in our wma. I wish I didn't have to but it's worth it
not to have to deal with all the drama. What I'm trying to say is I think our
wma's could be 5 star quality and I know we can't control the water or the phrag
so what's are options? "hunting pressure"!!!!!! We can keep over running it or do
something about it. I think the D.W.R is suggesting some kind of options.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

utahgolf said:


> gooseguts,
> 
> if you know where to hunt and put in some work on scouting than things here in utah are some of the best waterfowl hunting you can get on public land anywhere!!! people think you should be able to roll up to the parking lot and boat into an impoundment and kill ducks,, sorry but that ain't how it works anywhere!!! there needs to be a phrag proposition and habitat issue and that's about it!! we have it extremely well here! I think a hunters ethics course would also be a decent proposal!


Could not have stated it better UtahGolf!!!!

Everyone might as well get ready for the crap, those whiners are going to get thier way because thier are **** few folks left now-a-days who aren't afraid to hurt someones feelings by telling it like it is!!! For sure there is not any with the power to do it left at the DNR or the WB.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

gooseguts said:


> I also admit I lease land to have that
> quality experience I can't get in our wma. I wish I didn't have to but it's worth it
> not to have to deal with all the drama.


You lease land and have private property to hunt so the heck with everyone else? That's the attitude I see when you say you would support all of the restrictions. Your preaching to the wrong crowd here. You should just be happy with your lease and stay there and hunt.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

> gooseguts said:
> 
> 
> > Really?
> ...


[/quote:24vd6f6q]My turn to ruffle some feathers

Apparently they go in my freezer :roll: , cause I d**m sure don't have a problem finding and killing them throughout the season, I know several dozen other hunters who have the similar results throughout the season.

You receive a reward that is proportional to the effort you put in; lazy folks will never do as well at the hard workers, no matter how many restrictions you implement to level the playing field.

If someone finds water fowling too tough for them, there is always golf, well maybe that's not the answer for them either, it still takes skill and hard work to do succeed in golf too.


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

gooseguts said:


> Don't get me wrong here guys, I too have worked my "a%$" off to go shoot a duck!
> I'm not asking for a drive inn hunt experience. I also believe we have some of
> the most beautiful wma's in the country! I also admit I lease land to have that
> quality experience I can't get in our wma. I wish I didn't have to but it's worth it
> ...


dont blur your lines of what types of property we have to hunt. one of the advantages with private is you "control the pressure" on public property it is a completely different animal. yes it needs to be controlled, but to what extent? Massive restrictions?? I feel that our WMA still offer that quality experience very well. you cant fix stupid people and stupid actions. but if you feel that restricting the mass of people = better quality then mark them all "yes."


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

i killed over 300 birds this year myself, with all of them being on public ground and a majority of them at a popular WMA. i didnt hunt every day, i went when my time allowed. there were good days and bad days, just like anywhere else. what did i do that allowed me more success then the common utah foot soldier? i put in alot of effort and made it happen! like mojo said, you are rewarded by the efforts! creating more restrictions is not going to help anyone. its going to make things so much worse. we need to fight the real threats to our sport and the wetlands we use. letting those people with single track minds decide how and when we get to hunt is not right AT ALL! last time i checked we live in America, where we are free to do what we want, when we want to! some guy should not have the right to tell me when i can use a WMA during the waterfowl hunting season! its just as much my land as it is theirs. the birds are just as much mine as they are yours! these people make me sick just thinking about how they "think its a good idea, will improve hunting and be better for all of us"..... you want to kill ducks?! WORK FOR IT! they dont leave, they get smart and go to more remote areas!!


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## Dckhunter13 (Sep 20, 2007)

Sounds exactly like California. You have to either mail in a reservation and the odds of drawing suck. Or you have to go to the refuge the night before and get in the lottery. It doesn't sound too fun when you have to drive to the refuge the night before. I dunno i feel like if this happened hunting Farmington bay and some of the other refuges would be really tough to get into.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Why are so many of you worried about things???? Do you own a mud motor or air boat and are afraid that you won't be able to go tear up the marsh anymore????? Are you a dike hunter? A sky buster? Roost shooter? Or all of the above and are afraid that your going to loose your right to do so? If so, mark no on all the above and if a majority agrees, there shouldn't be any changes.

It's a survey for hunters that will be answered by hunters. If people are OK with things as they are, the survey will reflect as such. If folks aren't happy and want change, they'll reflect this as answers as to what they believe are the concerns and issues that they are dealing with and the possible answer to the situation


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> Here are some of the questions if you didn't get the survey: Would you support any of the following restrictions? YES or NO (this is for state WMA's only)
> 
> limit hunting to 3 days a week
> Limit the # of hunters on each management unit
> ...


lovely, here comes the Californication... -)O(- :O>>:


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> utahgolf said:
> 
> 
> > some of the dumbest proposals I've seen!! why does everyone complain about skybusters on the dike?? I'd much rather have those type of hunters on the dike than walking a hundred yards into the marsh and skybusting!!! that would be a lot worse...I'll say no to everyone of these!!
> ...


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

gooseguts said:


> Really?
> I'm going to stir it up here I'm sure, but who here doesn't want a better
> quality hunting experience! :roll: Most of the wma's are close to being shot
> out after opening weekend! They get pounded the birds move out to the gsl
> ...


mark nearly all? :shock: step away from the calikoolaid man! 
id gladly support a small daily fee *IF* it was marked to be recycled back to our WMA's. thats about the only suggestion id support. but, if im not mistaken, some changes to the internal workings to our state and its money will have to be made first. remember the habitat stamp of years ago and what happened to that money? it was plunked into the states general fund. from there who-the-hell-knows where it went...


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Motorized boat traffic is THE problem. Closing SOME areas to mud and air boats, and creating more rest areas is the only thing that will work. Trouble is, nobody wants to give and inch either way. Well folks we cant have our cake and eat it too. If you want more ducks, make more areas that duck want to be. They DON'T want to be where motorized boats are. It really is that simple. It's been proven in studies all over the place.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

Tex,

I wouldn't have a problem with internal rest ponds out in the middle of the marsh really...I like the way the bird refuge has lots of rest areas but they also have a boat load of land...I think it wouldn't be bad to have a rest area out at turpin at Fb from the 5 th bridge on down but there are so many boats that it would cause so much crowding!! these birds have a pretty big rest area anyways, they like sitting on the lake on the mud flats, they conserve a ton of energy that way. I wish there was more room to make these rest areas but that would cause worse crowding than what we're seein now...maybe if we actually tackled the phrag problem we could make some new areas for that.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

FB has a couple rest areas already.Where can you put another one with taking away from hunters ? They got the one of unite 1 north end big part of that pond and holds a crap load of birds.Then they got the buffer zone.Then they got the rest ponds from the clubs and the lake to rest on.So there plenty of place for them to go loaf around at.You take away more hunting land away form us. You are just pushing every one in a smaller area. All wma have place the birds can go rest that no body hunts or can't hunt.I know a place that don't get much hunting or boats on it and there no birds there. But you go a mile away from there and there are birds all over the place.


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Motorized boat traffic is THE problem. It's been proven in studies all over the place.


Tex,
I'd love to see these studies that are all over the place. Email them to me so i can take a read.

Thanks


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Farmington bay is fine, I'm talking about the refuges up north like Harold Crane, Ogden, Cutler, etc. Those places need more rest areas and less boat traffic. It's not ever cut and dry, you have to look at the whole enchilada. All I know is this. Walk out into a marsh or paddle a boat into it and the birds just move out of your way. Drive a motor boat through the middle of it and the birds leave. Not all areas are the same, but some areas need WAY more work than others. They spent over Two million dollars to poison and burn of the phrag at Harold Crane. It looks great! But where are the ducks? Go up in a plane and fly over that marsh. The whole thing is nothing but mud motor tracks throughout the place from one end to the other. Mud motors destroy aquatic vegetation creating an inert place with no food. Take away the mud motor traffic, the vegetation grows back and the ducks will follow. It aint rocket science!


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> Why are so many of you worried about things???? Do you own a mud motor or air boat and are afraid that you won't be able to go tear up the marsh anymore????? Are you a dike hunter? A sky buster? Roost shooter? Or all of the above and are afraid that your going to loose your right to do so?


D) ALL OF THE ABOVE 

you dont get it!! it WILL EFFECT you also! in more ways then one! if we allow the monsters to get their foot in the door, if wont belong before they over-power all of us and have complete control over what we do. any sane person would mark "no" for the appropriate questions. come on guys, think about this as a whole and dont think about just YOU. depending on if we allow those select few who think they are always right, to get their way, we will pay for it dearly!


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

DOES ANYONE NOTICE THE COMMON THING HERE IN ALL OF THESE ARGUEMENTS?! THE GUYS YELLING AND COMPLAINING THE MOST DONT OWN MUD MOTORS OR AIRBOATS!! THINK MAYBE THEY ARE JUST JEALOUS OF THE GUYS WHO DO AND CONSISTANTLY SHOOT GOOD NUMBERS OF BIRDS THROUGHOUT THE SEASON?! AND THEY ARE TIRED OF WALKING TO A SPOT ONLY TO BE BEAT BY GUYS WITH BOATS?! I THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT................


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

i am positive that jealousy has nothing to do with any of this! also owning a mud boat or airboat is not a guarantee of higher bird harvest numbers.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

Darin Noorda said:


> i am positive that jealousy has nothing to do with any of this! also owning a mud boat or airboat is not a guarantee of higher bird harvest numbers.


its doesnt guarantee anything, but it gets you out into areas that hold birds that dont get pressured as much as the ones the dike hunters shoot at and if you put forth any effort, you "should" do ok most of the time. all im saying is, you dont hear any guys with MMs and airboats pushing and suggesting to get more area shut down to motorless access.....


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Darin Noorda said:


> TEX-O-BOB":2pjup8tl]Motorized boat traffic is THE problem. It's been proven in studies all over the place.[/quote]
> Tex said:
> 
> 
> > http://wacf.com/?p=164[/URL]


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> you dont hear any guys with MMs and airboats pushing and suggesting to get more area shut down to motorless access.....


Actually many of us who support motorized restrictions own or use motorized boats on the majority of our hunts. Paddler is probably the only supporter I have met thus far who chooses to not own or hunt from motorized boats.

I hunt 95% of my days out of a boat and I support smart, biologically founded restrictions.

This survey is a great idea IMO, because it will allow those who make the decisions to have a true sampling of what all Utah waterfowl hunters would like to see changed. Just because the vocal majority on these forums do not support motor restrictions, in no way means that the majority of hunters don't either. There is only a minute percentage of Utah hunters posting on these forums.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Walk out into a marsh or paddle a boat into it and the birds just move out of your way. Drive a motor boat through the middle of it and the birds leave. Not all areas are the same, but some areas need WAY more work than others. They spent over Two million dollars to poison and burn of the phrag at Harold Crane.


In the interest of accuracy, the DWR has not spent 2 million dollars on phrag at Harold Crane. The State has allocated $200,000.000 per year to be spent in the whole state. Harold Crane has recieved some of that money, but not that much really.

The study that was posted earlier talks mostly about wave-caused shore damage on Wisconsin shorelines. It says that boats cause turbidity that cause fish to have trouble finding food. It also says that vegetation gets chopped up by propellors. While you are up in that plane, check out whether the mud next to a mudmotor track has vegetation growing on it. Most of our WMAs have a lot of bare muddy bottoms and what is left is rooted up by carp or killed by algeal blooms. Boat tracks from the sky may not be pretty to look at, but motors are not allowed in the WMA's during the plant growing season, and they don't stop vegetation from growing elsewhere in a WMA. If they want a higher quality experience for paying customers, the guides need to lease some private land and stop trying to restrict regular people from enjoying our marshes by boat. Accusing boaters of killing the marsh is quite a stretch but it is the way these guys are framing the issue. If we let them have their way, we all lose.
R


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Farmington bay is fine, I'm talking about the refuges up north like Harold Crane, Ogden, Cutler, etc. Those places need more rest areas and less boat traffic. It's not ever cut and dry, you have to look at the whole enchilada. All I know is this. Walk out into a marsh or paddle a boat into it and the birds just move out of your way. Yep, and they do what when that first shot of the day is fired? Drive a motor boat through the middle of it and the birds leave. Not all areas are the same, but some areas need WAY more work than others. They spent over Two million dollars to poison and burn of the phrag at Harold Crane. It looks great! But where are the ducks? Go up in a plane and fly over that marsh. The whole thing is nothing but mud motor tracks throughout the place from one end to the other. Mud motors destroy aquatic vegetation creating an inert place with no food. Take away the mud motor traffic, the vegetation grows back and the ducks will follow. It aint rocket science!


motor traffic is soooo evil... :roll:

...it boils down to pressure no matter how you slice it. define it however you want, but dont isolate any one single group.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> DOES ANYONE NOTICE THE COMMON THING HERE IN ALL OF THESE ARGUEMENTS?! THE GUYS YELLING AND COMPLAINING THE MOST DONT OWN MUD MOTORS OR AIRBOATS!! THINK MAYBE THEY ARE JUST JEALOUS OF THE GUYS WHO DO AND CONSISTANTLY SHOOT GOOD NUMBERS OF BIRDS THROUGHOUT THE SEASON?! AND THEY ARE TIRED OF WALKING TO A SPOT ONLY TO BE BEAT BY GUYS WITH BOATS?! I THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT................


na, i doubt it... i think we all have well intended arguments but its the meeting in the middle that will proove the most difficult. with the fronts population EXPLODING with people...sadly these issues are just the start. what happens when there are so many people living here and absorbing the resources (ie, water) that not enough of the stuff even reaches our beloved marshes? not to mention our ever shrinking pond to the west.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

Joel Draxler said:


> This survey is a great idea IMO, because it will allow those who make the decisions to have a true sampling of what all Utah waterfowl hunters would like to see changed. Just because the vocal majority on these forums do not support motor restrictions, in no way means that the majority of hunters don't either. There is only a minute percentage of Utah hunters posting on these forums.


if they want an idea of what utah hunters want as far as WMAs are concerned, they need to send a survey to EVERY resident hunter who is registered in the HIP program. its not really fair to send out a survey to random people and ask for their input, nor will they get an accurate idea of what the utah hunter population is thinking. if they are considering making HUGE changes to our sport and they want input from hunters, they need to ASK EVERYONE, including me. i have an opinion just like everyone else.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

Longun goes right to the core of the problem! The things you speak of are happening right now. We need to concentrate on IMPORTANT wetland issues right now and quit fighting amongst ourselves on stuff like whether a propellor causes wave damage. Even with an exploding population, we have plenty of wetlands available...we just need to re-claim them from the losses we have experienced over the last 10 years.

Kill-em-all has a point about representative sampling. I would not trust a small sample to represent duck hunters, especially when such a large percentage of waterfowlers only get out a few times a year in the early season. They deserve to have input, but I would like to see the opinions of the folks that really use the WMA's a lot be counted too. It is the die-hard waterfowlers that will suffer the most under these types of restrictions.
R


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

Just one more thing for all of us to remember when it comes to voting for restrictions. There are WAY fewer waterfowlers now than there used to be. There was never any call for restrictions to allow for less crowding, or for a "higher quality experience". We need to ask ourselves what has changed. I feel that the answer is LESS HABITAT. There are fewer of us out there, but the available area has shrunk even further. This can be changed. We can do it. We need to work together to improve and re-claim the hundreds of thousands of acres that have been lost over the last 10 years. There will be room for all of us if we insist that our government act to restore the lost wetlands. This is their job, it is not disputed, but *we need to make them care about our marshes like we all do *(I even think the anti-motors boys care about our marshes to some extent). 
R


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

yet another to ponder while we argue the finer points of WMA management...

CARP... any of you put your head to just how much destruction these slimey sob's do to your marshes.. night and day ...everyday? think about it... right now, literally MILLIONS of these bastages are consuming the ONE thing the birds are after most in their ultra-stressed times of migration... food. not to mention the erosion and trubidity they cause...


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

Longgun said:


> yet another to ponder while we argue the finer points of WMA management...
> 
> CARP... any of you put your head to just how much destruction these slimey sob's do to your marshes.. night and day ...everyday? think about it... right now, literally MILLIONS of these bastages are consuming the ONE thing the birds are after most in their ultra-stressed times of migration... food. not to mention the erosion and trubidity they cause...


Cutler is a prime example of that... those fish are tearing that place up... boat or no boat more damage is done there by fish


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

stuckduck said:


> Longgun said:
> 
> 
> > yet another to ponder while we argue the finer points of WMA management...
> ...


Bingo...

and i dare say elsewhere too. IMO, a rest area can and should be installed at Cutler but until the issue of carp is seriously addressed it will be for moot. some waterfowl may prolong their stay but without easily digestable forage... why?


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## duck jerky (Sep 8, 2007)

Cache valley already has a rest area. It's called the city lagoons (sewage ponds) it is full of ducks.


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> if they want an idea of what utah hunters want as far as WMAs are concerned, they need to send a survey to EVERY resident hunter who is registered in the HIP program. its not really fair to send out a survey to random people and ask for their input, nor will they get an accurate idea of what the utah hunter population is thinking. if they are considering making HUGE changes to our sport and they want input from hunters, they need to ASK EVERYONE, including me. i have an opinion just like everyone else.


I agree, that would be ideal, however I don't know of any survey that looks at surveying 100% of the user group.

Anyone know what number of surveys were sent out by the DWR? Typically it is ~5000 with an average return rate of ~50% from what I have heard. I may be way off on this it has been a couple years since I heard Tom give out those #'s.

So 2500 surveys is a pretty good # IMO. How many people have UWA, TUWA, Delta, DU, etc., etc. surveyed or will survey? A sample survey across all users is the best way to get an idea of what all users desire. Of course if we poll only those who hunt away from the dikes, they will likely support a shell restriction for those on the dikes, but that is not fair for those who hunt from the dikes. They pay their license $$ and "own" the WMA's just like the rest. Likewise, with the Air boaters, mm crowd, canoeists, foot soldiers and so forth. Merely surveying one's friends or organization, will bring predictable, biased results.


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## gooseguts (Nov 9, 2007)

John,
I see you mentioned "hunting pressure" and a "shrinking lake" in your previous posts,
I agree with you 100% both of these are causes for our birds not holding over.
So if we can't control what mother nature gives us for water what can we control?
"Hunting Pressure"!!!!!! If you read the survey everything stated on it is designed to
due just that control "hunting pressure" right? Don't get me wrong here guys you can
ask any of those I have hunted with including LONGGUN I have, still do and will always
be willing to work my ass of for a bird! What I'm trying to say is simple what other
solutions besides reducing hunting pressure do we have? John don't take this wrong I have
a great respect for you as a friend and fellow fowler :mrgreen: I do think were all 
forgetting one thing here "WERE ALL DUCK HUNTERS" and should be on the same
team if were going to do anything......


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

I hunt ducks for several reasons. First and foremost is because I have the opportunity and freedom to hunt them how I wish. I can walk with a couple dozen decoys on my back,
I can sit on a dike or I can load the boat up and head out. 

What this all boils down to is who is going to define what "Quality" in waterfowl hunting is. 

For years we have let Don Peay, The Conservation Tag Pimps and Landowners that sell permits tell the rank and file Utah hunter what a "Quality Hunt" is in the Big Game world.

I have a mentor that has been in the battles with me on big game issues that the other reason I hunt ducks is because there is no scoring system for birds... Thank GOD!!!

Once you allow OUR Wildlife, Waterfowl and Wild Places become a commodity YOU WILL HAVE OUR WATERFOWL SEASON TURNED IN TO OUR ELK HUNT.

I'll decide what a "Quality Hunt" is for me and my family I don't need the likes of Don Peay or the new Don Peay's of the waterfowl world deciding for me.

TEX you fricken well no better!!! How many layout hunts have you been on in Unit 1 at Farmington Bay??? How many birds have you blown off the rest pond by running the layout boat out with a mud motor rig?? How many birds have you blown off the rest pond
by shooting 100 yards from them?? The same thing happens at the end of the Turpin.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

Joel Draxler said:


> [quote="kill_'em_all":fwnrrore]if they want an idea of what utah hunters want as far as WMAs are concerned, they need to send a survey to EVERY resident hunter who is registered in the HIP program. its not really fair to send out a survey to random people and ask for their input, nor will they get an accurate idea of what the utah hunter population is thinking. if they are considering making HUGE changes to our sport and they want input from hunters, they need to ASK EVERYONE, including me. i have an opinion just like everyone else.


So 2500 surveys is a pretty good # IMO. How many people have UWA, TUWA, Delta, DU, etc., etc. surveyed or will survey? A sample survey across all users is the best way to get an idea of what all users desire. Of course if we poll only those who hunt away from the dikes, they will likely support a shell restriction for those on the dikes, but that is not fair for those who hunt from the dikes. They pay their license $$ and "own" the WMA's just like the rest. Likewise, with the Air boaters, mm crowd, canoeists, foot soldiers and so forth. Merely surveying one's friends or organization, will bring predictable, biased results.[/quote:fwnrrore]
i agree. so leave things the way they are. if they make changes in any way, one type or group of hunters will be effected more severly then others. if you want input, survey everyone. if you want changes, make sure everyone is effected equally. this is a land of opportunity, i dont understand why people are willing to give that up!?!


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## diverfreak (May 11, 2008)

TEX you fricken well no better!!! How many layout hunts have you been on in Unit 1 at Farmington Bay??? How many birds have you blown off the rest pond by running the layout boat out with a mud motor rig?? How many birds have you blown off the rest pond
by shooting 100 yards from them?? The same thing happens at the end of the Turpin.

I will answer it for Tex. 100+, NONE, NONE. Dont know anything about the turpin.
Funny thing about rest areas are, that since they are closed to everything the only thing that will blow birds out of them are Bald Eagles!


DiverFreak


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Mud motors and airboats are the future of waterfowling. They'll make or break where were headed that's for sure.

Guys like kill em all are spelling it out. The birds aren't going to come to you. "Get out where the birds are or shut the fugg up!!!!!!"


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

gooseguts said:


> John,
> I see you mentioned "hunting pressure" and a "shrinking lake" in your previous posts,
> I agree with you 100% both of these are causes for our birds not holding over.
> So if we can't control what mother nature gives us for water what can we control?
> ...


to control pressure meens we _restrict_ days afield for all partisipating...

that bud... just turns my guts.

makes me think whats next. call the WMA a couple days in advance to see what blinds are available... or am i hunting on an even or odd day according to the last digit in my birthdate and what phase the moon is in this time maybe? then be told how much time i have to spend while experiencing our quality experience? makes me want to vomit...

i can hear the leasee's pockets getting bigger as this thread drags on...


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> Guys like kill em all are spelling it out. The birds aren't going to come to you. "Get out where the birds are or shut the fugg up!!!!!!"


i know that was 100% a smartass comment, but i agree! get out where the birds are or going to be (aka roost shooting  ) AND HUNT! if youre not willing to put forth the effort, SHUT UP! you cant hike 101 yards from your truck on center dike at FB, set up with no decoys, 10 yards away from a guy who brought 4 boxes of shells and plans on shooting every one of them and expect great things!!


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> Mud motors and airboats are the future of waterfowling. They'll make or break where were headed that's for sure.
> 
> Guys like kill em all are spelling it out. The birds aren't going to come to you. "Get out where the birds are or shut the fugg up!!!!!!"


what sort of crack are you on anyway?

i meen holy negativity... get some help. 
search.php?author_id=888&sr=posts


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Longgun said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > Mud motors and airboats are the future of waterfowling. They'll make or break where were headed that's for sure.
> ...


Your right. Mud motor ownership would defintely help my attitude towards waterfowl hunting. I''d be out rubbing shoulders with you guys and competing for the next roost shoot or waiting for birds to settle down to get out on them before someone else does. I have to admit, my competitive side is intrigued by mm or airboat ownership so I can add to the competition, but in few more years, who am I going to sell my rig to???


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> Longgun said:
> 
> 
> > 1BandMan said:
> ...


i think your competitive side is jealous that you dont have one!!  in a few years you can sell it to someone else who finally gets tired of walkin when youre ready for an UPGRADE! :mrgreen: theres wayyyyyyyyyyyy more foot soldiers in utah then there is MMs and airboats.... but im sure you'll never get crowded out by other hikers... good luck packin them decoys! im sure you'll knock 'em dead! just make sure youre back to your truck by around 4:00 p.m. otherwise you'll be guilty of roost shooting and we wouldnt want that!!! o-||


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> Your right. Mud motor ownership would defintely help my attitude towards waterfowl hunting. I''d be out rubbing shoulders with you guys and competing for the next roost shoot or waiting for birds to settle down to get out on them before someone else does. I have to admit, my competitive side is intrigued by mm or airboat ownership so I can add to the competition, but in few more years, who am I going to sell my rig to???


... leaving?!   

about your boat... there's always fish to catch somewhere! but even that is getting to be a joke with the overcrowding.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Hell guys, I'm not against anyone, I'm just a taxidermist... I don't even duck hunt that much. I just do what I can to help out with the DU and Delta stuff every now and then and keep my mouth shut for the most part. But I do know a couple things.
1. We've got an epidemic Phrag problem.
2. We've got a major motorized boat problem.
3. We've got a huge lack of water in the GSL area problem.
4. We've got ZERO biological studies done in this state to prove/disprove any of it.
5. We've got a DWR that is run by special interest and politicians trying to be everything to everyone.

So, what DO we do?

I don't know...

I DO know this. In the end, what will be decided will be by the people with the most money, the most political influence, and the best blowjob skills. That's a FACT!


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2011)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I DO know this. In the end, what will be decided will be by the people with the most money, the most political influence, and the best blowjob skills. That's a FACT!


THANK GOD rich people own boats.....


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

diverfreak said:


> TEX you fricken well no better!!! How many layout hunts have you been on in Unit 1 at Farmington Bay??? How many birds have you blown off the rest pond by running the layout boat out with a mud motor rig?? How many birds have you blown off the rest pond
> by shooting 100 yards from them?? The same thing happens at the end of the Turpin.
> 
> I will answer it for Tex. 100+, NONE, NONE. Dont know anything about the turpin.
> ...


Tony,

Will you help me understand this statement? If all the birds hang on a rest area would they not quickly consume all the feed in said rest area? So naturally hunger will push them off the rest area after they consume all the feed.....which they will then go out to open area's to feed and give hunters a chance to shoot them? In turn by having a safe area for rest shouldn't it hold more ducks for a general area over a longer period of time because they also have a safe area to rest?

I have only ever hunted one of the northern wma's once in my life. It was quite the experience for me. I went with some friends out to decoy a swan and we went out in boats with mud motors. For me being my first time one the GSL marsh system it was in my opinion a great experience. Now I was surprised by the lack of rest area's I was told the GSL has. I was told the Lake its self use to be a large rest pond before air boats started really running and gunning the lake.

So what I am trying to understand is where do the birds on the GSL system rest? Is there truly anywhere other then in city limits they can really rest? If the birds don't have a rest area, and good places to go feed why would they stick around?

Even though this dose not affect me at present I can see where it might possibly in the future. I would like to understand all the thought processes on possible impacts, changes or lack of changes this might make.

To this point this has all been a good read with lots of good thoughts and opinions on what could or may be. I would like to see more science though behind some of the ideas like, mm impact, lack of rest area's, carp populations, loss of area due to phrag, etc.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Hell guys, I'm not against anyone, I'm just a taxidermist... I don't even duck hunt that much. I just do what I can to help out with the DU and Delta stuff every now and then and keep my mouth shut for the most part. But I do know a couple things.
> 1. We've got an epidemic Phrag problem.
> 2. We've got a major motorized boat problem.
> 3. We've got a huge lack of water in the GSL area problem.
> ...


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Longgun said:


> gooseguts said:
> 
> 
> > John,
> ...


Come to Nevada and try hunting. Hunting is every other day, you make a reservation for the day you want to hunt (if available) then you have to draw a ball hopefully with a low number so you can pick the fixed blind you want to hunt out of. Now if you want to hunt during a holiday you need to get a reservation in august but you can't hunt any other day until then because you can't hold a reservation for more then one day.

Just a thought for you guys as this is what it can become.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Hell guys, I'm not against anyone, I'm just a taxidermist... I don't even duck hunt that much.


I saw your swan photo this year with you wearing all the bands and neck collars on your lanyard.........You must be a Ebay shopper if you don't hunt that much :mrgreen:


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

Just an FYI, these very same questions were asked in the 2005 survey done by the DWR as well.

Here is a brief overview of the results from that survey:

-49.7% of waterfowl hunters in Utah hunted primarily on state waterfowl management areas.

-About two-thirds of waterfowl hunters accessed waterfowl hunting areas by walking/biking, while only 20.2% used motorboats and even fewer used airboats (2.4%).

-14.3% of hunters surveyed indicated that they did not support any of the ten proposed restrictions. (That means 85.70% DO support SOME type of restrictions) Providing rest areas where hunting is not allowed was the only proposed WMA restriction supported by a significant majority of waterfowl hunters. The option of providing limited entry hunting blinds was neither favored nor opposed by a significant margin (50.2% Approve). The remaining 8 options were not supported by a majority of waterfowl hunters, with the options of charging a daily fee on each WMA and limiting the number of shotgun shells per hunter the least favorable options.

In 2005 most surveyed hunters WANTED to see an increase in rest areas while all other areas were basically even. I wonder how that has changed, if it has at all.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

:roll: Wow! I had no idea it had gotten this bad. I gave up duck hunting a couple of years ago due to loss of my favorite hunting spots, and now it seems like it has spread even further than when I gave it up. 

I don't believe more rest areas is the answer. If there is an over crowding issue that is only going to make it worse.

It sounds like it is headed toward less hunting pressure. Which in all likely hood means less days in the field.

One of the biggest reasons I liked duck hunting was the number of days/months you could hunt, and being out in the marsh experiencing the greatness. It's a whole different world out there. I think I'm actually talking myself into wanting to go again. Anyways it truly is going the way of big game hunting. Where there is less opportunity and not enough animals/birds to go around.

It definitely helps to go out and have your voice heard. If you don't do it now you will regret it later, and you can't say to yourself it won't do any good, because you will never know.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > Longgun said:
> ...


Jealosy is definitely the issue. I need to be out in what is left of the hunting to be had and in order to do that, I need an airboat or mud runner.
I'm just concerned that the folks that are willing to make the sacrifices like me to have good shoots will continue to rise to the point that the birds won't even last long enough in the valley for anyone including myself to bother with it. It seems like every year the days are fewer that the birds are in the valley. Sometimes weather plays a part in the numbers, but a lot of the time they are long gone long before any freeze up occurs, and it seems like there are fewer and fewer birds every year to start off with. Who am I going to sell my rig to when the interest declines and there are hundreds of others trying to dump theirs?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Longgun said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > Your right. Mud motor ownership would defintely help my attitude towards waterfowl hunting. I''d be out rubbing shoulders with you guys and competing for the next roost shoot or waiting for birds to settle down to get out on them before someone else does. I have to admit, my competitive side is intrigued by mm or airboat ownership so I can add to the competition, but in few more years, who am I going to sell my rig to???
> ...


I'm not going anywhere anytime real soon. 
I had a mud motor rig a long time ago, before they became popular. I guess it wouldn't be a huge leap for me to be your competition again, but I cant see me fishing out of a 18 foot flat bottom with a $6000, 300 lb. hyperdrive or airboat for that matter. I guess it would be a 12-$15,000 boat that I wouldn't mind throwing a bloody fish in the bottom of it, but it wouldn't make much sense.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> Jealosy is definitely the issue. I need to be out in what is left of the hunting to be had and in order to do that, I need an airboat or mud runner.
> I'm just concerned that the folks that are willing to make the sacrifices like me to have good shoots will continue to rise to the point that the birds won't even last long enough in the valley for anyone including myself to bother with it. It seems like every year the days are fewer that the birds are in the valley. Sometimes weather plays a part in the numbers, but a lot of the time they are long gone long before any freeze up occurs, and it seems like there are fewer and fewer birds every year to start off with. Who am I going to sell my rig to when the interest declines and there are hundreds of others trying to dump theirs?


then i'll make this easy for you, dont go hunting anymore!! if theres not much left and you are not satisfied with what is left, dont participate! no ones making you! go play golf or something! the golf course is full of other prissy guys who are always looking for others to come play with them! have fun!! :^8^:


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > Jealosy is definitely the issue. I need to be out in what is left of the hunting to be had and in order to do that, I need an airboat or mud runner.
> ...


Your not paying attention or are totally oblivious to reality.......you yourself will be one of the hundreds of other's trying to figure out what your rig can be used for or who you can dump it on as well.

If folks don't understand that they are pushing the resource hard, the end will simply come quicker.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > Hell guys, I'm not against anyone, I'm just a taxidermist... I don't even duck hunt that much.
> ...


 :lol: Those bands weren't mine... 

That swan was one of 14 birds I killed this entire season in three trips.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

As a partial response to 1manband's worries about who will buy the boats when it gets too crowded to hunt: Back in the early 80's when the lake came up, it really messed up the hunting. Hunter numbers declined by 60%. Everyone thought it was the end for waterfolwing along the GSL marshes. Airboats were so cheap that you could almost get one for free. Soon enough, though, the waters receded and hunters came back. *There are now fewer hunters and fewer airboats than pre-flood days, but dramaticly less available marsh.* Airboats are so expensive now that you have to mortgage your house in order to afford one, and mudmotors have emerged as a relatively inexpensive way for the regular guy to get out into what's left of the marsh. Don't worry about resale value for boats, waterfowlers are a hardy breed, and we will keep at it even if the _anti's_ get things restricted in a big way due to their shortsighted, knee jerk reaction to a fixable problem- wetland losses.
R


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

It is not clear to me that the 2005 survey actually spelled out that making more rest areas would subtract from the huntable acreage in our WMAs. If it had, the responses might have been different. In that survey, the only option that did not mandate reduced opportunity was increasing motorless areas, and that remains the single best, most easily implemented and enforced, least expensive option for improving our marshes, increasing bird utilization and hunter success.

MM destroy SAV, limit regrow by increasing turbidity, and in so doing destroy duck food both in the short and long term. But all that is okay, because they also blow the birds out of the marsh, so they wouldn't feed there anyway. We are pressing a shrinking resource pretty hard, to the detriment of the habitat, the birds, and hunter success. As has been said, there are fewer hunters now than before, yet hunter success may be at an all-time low. It would be interesting to see the numbers over time.

We'll see how this plays out. It does seem a bit ironic that motorized guys tell others to get out and work for their birds. How many calories does one burn twisting a throttle? It's really too bad Mojo's going back home, I think a chukar hunt would be fun. And thanks, Tony, but you can keep that survey.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2011)

ah i knew it wouldnt be long before paddler join the group!!


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2011)

paddler where you get that info;if it hurt coot habitat i will follow yuo in this battle;


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2011)

Klark said:


> paddler where you get that info;if it hurt coot habitat i will follow yuo in this battle;


 :roll: :roll: :roll: o my hell. with klark and paddler teaming up, great things are SURE to happen...


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> It is not clear to me that the 2005 survey actually spelled out that making more rest areas would subtract from the huntable acreage in our WMAs. If it had, the responses might have been different. In that survey, the only option that did not mandate reduced opportunity was increasing motorless areas, and that remains the single best, most easily implemented and enforced, least expensive option for improving our marshes, increasing bird utilization and hunter success.
> 
> MM destroy SAV, limit regrow by increasing turbidity, and in so doing destroy duck food both in the short and long term. But all that is okay, because they also blow the birds out of the marsh, so they wouldn't feed there anyway.If we blow them out of there so fast and so much why in hell does Fb ave over a 1000's of ducks there all year long ? We are pressing a shrinking resource pretty hard, to the detriment of the habitat, the birds, and hunter success. As has been said, there are fewer hunters now than before, yet hunter success may be at an all-time low. It would be interesting to see the numbers over time.
> 
> We'll see how this plays out. It does seem a bit ironic that motorized guys tell others to get out and work for their birds. How many calories does one burn twisting a throttle? We burn s much as anybody else. we might use are boats to get to places and then hike are butts in to the hunting spot. It's really too bad Mojo's going back home, I think a chukar hunt would be fun. And hanks, Tony, but you can keep that survey.


You know if people would put the time and spend the money in gas to hunt other place.They would find great hunting with less people. I drive over 100+ mils to hunt ducks every weekend doring the season and I have awesome hunts. I also hunt fb and people that bitch that the birds at fb are not there and so on.Learn how to hunt that place and you will get your birds.You can't show up at 8 and then turn around and leave at 10. Paddler I find so many place late season hunting where you can walk and hunt and have great shoot and get away from boaters and others. There plenty of place for foot solders to hunt.You just got to spend the time and walk for miles and hours to find them.O yea Paddler let see you and your little non motor people go out and do the nest boxes next month and carry all of the stuff need to get out there on the Turpin unite and the other.Air boaters,MM do a lot for this sport.


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## diverfreak (May 11, 2008)

And hanks, Tony, but you can keep that survey.

Paddler, what i said was in Jest!!!

The funny thing about the survey is i have 3 licensed waterfowlers in my house and 2 others in my couldesac. Out of 5 of them only 1 received which was my 13 year old daughter. She read it and filled it out. She said all the questions were stupid. Said everytime she went hunting with me was awesome even though she only harvested a few birds even though she shot atleast a box or two or three on every outing. If the questionnaire was to be fair and accurate it would have to be delivered to everyone, especially the ones that hunt more than 3-5 times a season. It reminds me of the hip# questions, Did you shoot more than ten ducks this season, Yeah thats accurate!!

DiverFreak


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

It's difficult to fault the methods used by the DWR surveys, as they use statisticians to plan them. Although you may be skeptical, they use a representative sampling size, and consider the response rate in their calculations. If you have a problem with their methodology, contact the Division, I'm sure they can explain how the process works. Rest assured that surveys cost money, and part of the job is to make sure that the surveys yield useful and accurate information. There is always some bias due to the way questions are asked, and I mentioned that above. But I trust the Division is doing the best they can.

Volunteering is good, and using machinery to enhance the marsh is good. I participate in those efforts as my schedule allows, as I think it's important to give back. That said, motorboats can and do have negative impacts. I'm sure that the Division will pay close attention to input from hunters regarding restrictions in the short term. If studies show that the impact of MM is too much, I expect they will also act. I don't see that happening anytime soon, even though it's pretty clear MMs hurt the marsh.

I'm really interested to see the harvest numbers. It could be that increased MM use is actually decreasing overall hunter success.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> It could be that increased MM use is actually decreasing overall hunter success.


How is that ? Be side all of your other bs you have given.I can put on any survey and say yes my hunting sucks because of the dike hunter are all was sky busting and I think we need to close them down or only let them have 15 shells that day.No body is going to put down my hunting sucks because I did not work or wanted to walk out there.

So here is a question for you Paddler and every one else.So let say the banded mm and air boats.So people like my buddy that got him a mm so he can still take his dad out hunting still.He can't walk that much or that for.So your say sorry guys even though you still love to hunt and still want to hunt with your kids and with there grandkids.But sorry you can't make it out there where the ducks are.So you just pushed them right out of the sport.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

paddler,

along with those harvest numbers, can you also provide migration numbers of the same days and locations applicable to the year at the time these folks are trying to recall? 

while youre at it, migration numbers prior to and after the time of freezeup? how about pevailing cloud cover during a full moon vs clear skies at night... add to that the barometric pressure on any one of those given days?


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Longgun said:


> paddler,
> 
> along with those harvest numbers, can you also provide migration numbers of the same days and locations applicable to the year at the time these folks are trying to recall?
> 
> while youre at it, migration numbers prior to and after the time of freezeup? how about pevailing cloud cover during a full moon vs clear skies at night... add to that the barometric pressure on any one of those given days?


I know you're being facetious, but it would be interesting to look at the weekly bird counts over time. They would probably show dramatic declines coincident with the increasing use of MM. If you look at bird counts at several points during the season, they should roughly correlate with hunter success. I think hunter success last year was at or near an all-time low, but haven't seen the final numbers. It's amazing to me that we can watch hunter success decline, yet refuse to look at all the possible factors responsible or take any corrective action. I personally don't like MMs, and don't own one. But even if I did, I'd have an open mind to trying to improve the resource.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> Longgun said:
> 
> 
> > paddler,
> ...


I know you're being facetious, but it would be interesting to look at the weekly bird counts over time. They would probably show dramatic declines coincident with the increasing use of MM. ummm in the interest of truthful reporting, let's call what causes that decline what it really is, hunter pressure, did I mention the MM owners are not the only hunters contributing to it, pretty sure several others have also did so, but yet you are always conveniently leaving that tidbit of fact out

If you look at bird counts at several points during the season, they should roughly correlate with hunter success.  that will not correlate since the birds learn to avoid hunter pressure as the season goes on, only those hunters willing to go the extra mile and put in the effort will be consistently successful quote]

BTW the I'm not being facetious, I'm stating fact!!


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> Longgun said:
> 
> 
> > paddler,
> ...


Facetious? your arrogance/attitude of "im sooo stinking right" would lead me to expect such a statement. im sure by that, you imply i was attempting to be a funny guy... not hardly. how can you not agree with each and every example i listed as a major contributor to fluctuating numbers and the obvious correlation with hunter success?

*ok truth be told without tossing in your "just maybe's"... turbidity-destruction-and the "probable" all-out end of our marshes as we know it baloney, what is your agenda with this "share the marsh" clique you have going on. seems with your above statement, its nothing but a personal vendetta.*

_"But even if I did, I'd have an open mind to trying to improve the resource."_ since you so vehemently generalise boaters as a whole, how do we as a group not?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Wow! I didn't know you knew such big words Longgun! Vehemently, turbidity, huh, who knew... :mrgreen:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Wow! I didn't know you knew such big words Longgun! Vehemently, turbidity, huh, who knew... :mrgreen:


No wonder the internet slowed down after he posted, everyone else on here was goggling those words to see what they meant! :lol: :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

paddler213 said:


> I know you're being facetious, but it would be interesting to look at the weekly bird counts over time. They would probably show dramatic declines coincident with the increasing use of MM. If you look at bird counts at several points during the season, they should roughly correlate with hunter success. I think hunter success last year was at or near an all-time low, but haven't seen the final numbers. It's amazing to me that we can watch hunter success decline, yet refuse to look at all the possible factors responsible or take any corrective action. I personally don't like MMs, and don't own one. But even if I did, I'd have an open mind to trying to improve the resource.


you said it right there. hunter success may be declining (i personally dont believe it, but whatever) so you go ahead and blame it on the MMs. MMs were around 10 years ago... but what do we have today that we didnt have in the past?? PHRAG AND LESS MARSH LANDS/HABITAT!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I have heard a bunch of different suggestions on what should be done, and some of these things may work on some of the WMA's but not on all of them. One thing I have learned reading all the different posts on what should or should not be done is that guys are probably only fighting for the areas they hunt. I think people need to come right out and suggest specifically what they would like done or not done on each WMA. For example; if someone wants a rest area at Ogden Bay, where do you want it and why? Motorless access, where? We can sit and fight each other all day, when in reality there are probably great ideas on both sides, but everyone is fighting over areas that are only specific to where they hunt. For example; I don't hunt Harold Crane so I could sit on here all day and say I don't care if they make it motorless, limit hunters, blind draws, etc. Hunters that hunt that area should be the ones saying what they want specific to that area. You can't just throw all the WMA's into one pool and expect to get the same results, it has to be managed area specific.


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## Tyson Rasmussen (Sep 28, 2009)

Jon, More of the same as usual huh?


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## Skye Hansen (Mar 23, 2009)

I think that some people on here do not understand how nice we have it here. I enjoy every hunt that I go on. I think that hunter success is relative. I understand that a lot of the reason that we all venture out in the marsh is that we want to bring home some birds. However, I hope that there are more hunters out there that base their hunting experience on more than just how many birds are in the bag. I had some incredible hunts this year, the type when it seems like you could swing an orange flag above your head and that would not stop the ducks from coming. I also had a few hunts that left me scratching my head wondering what was wrong with my set-up. The fact is there is a lot more to hunting than killing. 
I hope that we do not bite ourselves in the butt by fighting so hard against each other that we shut the marsh down. That does nothing for us or for the future of waterfowling. I personally use a boat to access the areas that I hunt. I hope for the sake of my children that this does not change, because I believe that a boat is a huge tool in recruiting future waterfowlers. I am not against having areas that are available to people without motors as long as those areas are used to the extent that the areas open to boats are used.
Skye Hansen


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

skyline11 said:


> I think that some people on here do not understand how nice we have it here.


Ding, ding, ding, we have the winner here!

I challenge anyone to go over to Cali or over east of here and hunt unguided on public land, and then come back here and bitch about the quality and availability of our public land hunting, if you would bother to take that challenge you are in for a very rude awaking! Trust me words aren't enough to describe it; it's something you have to experience to fully believe.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Wow! I didn't know you knew such big words Longgun! Vehemently, turbidity, huh, who knew... :mrgreen:


 :roll: ... yep, and there's that super neat spell check thinglingy too!


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

skyline11 said:


> *I think that some people on here do not understand how nice we have it here*. I enjoy every hunt that I go on. *I think that hunter success is relative.* I understand that a lot of the reason that we all venture out in the marsh is that we want to bring home some birds. *However, I hope that there are more hunters out there that base their hunting experience on more than just how many birds are in the bag.* I had some incredible hunts this year, the type when it seems like you could swing an orange flag above your head and that would not stop the ducks from coming. I also had a few hunts that left me scratching my head wondering what was wrong with my set-up. The fact is there is a lot more to hunting than killing.
> I hope that we do not bite ourselves in the butt by fighting so hard against each other that we shut the marsh down. That does nothing for us or for the future of waterfowling. I personally use a boat to access the areas that I hunt. I hope for the sake of my children that this does not change, because I believe that a boat is a huge tool in recruiting future waterfowlers. I am not against having areas that are available to people without motors as long as those areas are used to the extent that the areas open to boats are used.
> Skye Hansen


Sky, "post of the year" sir.

fact is that there are areas of nonmotor use areas scattered around now. some by default (ie no launch) other posted as so. with the areas deemed motorless, by the DWR's (i wont name names as i highly respect this man and know he wouldnt appreciate having his name dragged into this mess of a thread) own admission they are not being used to their fullest extent as they sit now! now using some of the armchair based biology contained in this thread, one would assume the birds just pile in these areas by the masses... they dont. using the same "facts" of mm's cause turbidity and thusly cease any and all veggie growth... some of these same motorless ares are in FACT turbid... but somehow the veggies do their thing just fine.... astonishing... still another astonishing fact... those of us that frequent the area called the spur. have any of you notice the sego just grows right up through those now silted in evil prop scars... how does that happen? i remember reading somewhere that the scars cause irrepairable damage to the extent that life will simply not grow there... what gives?


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

Somehow the Spur and the Bear River Bay manage to grow massive amounts of duck food--even after 50 years of airboat use and 15 years of Mudmotor use. During the middle of the duck season this year, the DWR counted over 300,000 ducks in the Willard Spur/Bear River Bay area. Weird.

Back to the survey questions though: I hope that folks will take into consideration the wlefare of the overall WMA hunting situation and resist the temptation to sacrifice opportunities in areas they don't frequent. Another post earlier stated this point much more elequently than I can.
R


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

tex right; guys with much coin also known as yuppie scum is big problems; me and pitt hike are selfs out thier and then yuppie scum guy takes his boat out and scare all the coot cause he don,t hunt them! have your buds like rcmax four and stephanie huntt film "yuppies gone wild part 1" or "my super dark eagle shoots further than your stoeger-no spoonie left unshot" then all you yuppies can watch them videeos when wmas get shut down; PEECE


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

rjefre said:


> Somehow the Spur and the Bear River Bay manage to grow massive amounts of duck food--even after 50 years of airboat use and 15 years of Mudmotor use. During the middle of the duck season this year, the DWR counted over 300,000 ducks in the Willard Spur/Bear River Bay area. Weird.


But that couldn't be the case because it doesn't support thier agenda! :O//: . :roll:


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

Klark said:


> "my super dark eagle shoots further than your stoeger-no spoonie left unshot"


  i like your name for it better then the real name! i dont know if mine really shoots further, but i do know it kills every spoonie that flies by at un-godly distances  i dont understand what is so appealing about coots when theres ducks to be killed... but to each their own!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Here is my suggestion to the DWR. Close all units inside our WMAs that do not require more than a two mile bike, walk or paddle to access. That would leave the Turpin open, but close Unit 1. HC would be closed to to MMs, as would Howard Slough. Maybe leave the main unit at SC open. PSG would have Hull Lake open, maybe. My suggestion to waterfowlers is to, as another group says, "Use the quads that God gave you!"

It's interesting the responses to Noble's thread about trespassers on the other forum. Greg said that hunting is a privilege, not a right. Many guys agreed. Steve lamented that hunting is not the cheap entertainment for teenaged boys it once was. Just as hunting is not a right, running your MMs on public land isn't a God-given right, either. And, don't you think those teenaged boys with minimal gear, no boat, etc, could have a better hunt if they didn't have to compete with MMs? Get off your a**es, guys, it'll be good for you.


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## Duckinator II (Nov 23, 2010)

Paddler123 , I and a lot of others take considerable exception to what you have listed above, and many of your comments over the last several months. You express many of your opinions as facts, as do most of us. But without trying to offend you to badly Sir, I would like to point out you that you never provide accurate data to any of your talking points. As listed in the tread I just read, You use "Probably" as the basis for the data you created. Here are a few items I would like point out, this of course from my subjective review. 
Hunter success is related to your knowledge of the birds, your knowledge of the area you hunt, time of year and weather. Those people who know what they are doing and put in the time scouting kill the most birds (Fact). A person does not buy an airboat or MM because he is semi interested in duck hunting. I have read the posts of people who responded to the informal harvest survey posted here. I talked to a number of people who do a lot of duck hunting, they killed as many birds last year as ever (Fact, not opinion)
I have hunted on the GSL and Utah WMA ‘s for over 55 years, Back in the 60's we killed ducks because we knew where to go, we learned from family members who showed us where to go and it worked. In the 70's we hunted out on the south side of the BRBR in our airboats. At that time we thought there we too many airplanes landing on sandbars and parking too close to our goose decoys. They left when we told them their plane might get hit when we shot at ducks and geese. We killed lots of ducks then, it was great hunting! There were thousands of ducks on the GSL and we drove our airboats through there all the time (There were a lot of airboats in that area then). It was not the Airboats that made them leave it was the weather (Fact)!
I and my boys use our mm early in the season because we have really good spots at FB. I know a number of people who kill lots of ducks on FB because they put in the time and they know what they are doing. We walked the main dike at FB a couple of times last year, and yes there were SKYBUSTERS. But you know what, we went to that same place we always do (For the last 13 years) and we shot ducks (Fact)! 
When the marshes freeze up the ducks move to open water. On the last day of the season there were thousands of ducks on the open water in the GSL ( we were out there). There were none on the rest pond in FB, it was froze! It was not the hunting pressure, it was the weather. I guess when you say there is too much pressure that makes them leave perhaps you should talk to the DWR. According to the DWR it is when the weather is bad it makes them continue their migration (Fact). I see this on other bodies of water too, when the lakes freeze up the ducks leave the frozen bodies of water and move to the rivers and streams where there is food. I have seen the DWR stats on migration timelines. I don’t know that I have ever seen you mention that in any of your comments of the last few months it’s always MM and airboats that are the problem.
We killed as many ducks last year as I ever have, well over 400 ducks (fact)! We love to hunt, we do it as family and friends, we invest time to do it and we are successful. It has always been that way, you invest, you get more back. These are not "Probably" numbers I have listed, they are actual. 
One of the big problems in the US today, is a lot of people do not want to invest the time, they want to punish those who put in the effort and as a result those who are the most successful get punished and it results in all of us suffering.
There is no doubt that the Phragmites and low water on the GSL are seriously impacting the areas to hunt both inside the WMAs and on the GSL, but the rest of what you say can be picked apart as self serving.
It would be a lot better for all of us is to get together on areas we all agree on, the Phragmites and water usage and maybe to stop using the GSL for the common toilette of the Wasatch Front. Maybe what we need to do is what was done in EGYPT, get together a large group of hunters and march on the State capitol and not go home for several days! Not only for the Ducks but for hunting in general!


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> And, don't you think those teenaged boys with minimal gear, no boat, etc, could have a better hunt if they didn't have to compete with MMs?


I think that everyone would have a better hunt if all the unskilled, unethical, slob type hunters out in the marsh would learn how to act, learn to shot with in their range limitations, learn how to hunt, or plain find another sport to partake in. FYI Whining about your success rate or lack of is not an accredited sport.

Just as you said hunting and/or running your MM may not be a privilege, but neither is success, you have to work for it.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

paddler213 said:


> And, don't you think those teenaged boys with minimal gear, no boat, etc, could have a better hunt if they didn't have to compete with MMs?


I was that teenaged kid who had to walk and pack decoys on my back. i still killed lots of birds. you just gotta put effort into it.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

Duckinator II for President! Very well worded post.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

Duckinator II said:


> Paddler123 , I and a lot of others take considerable exception to what you have listed above, and many of your comments over the last several months. You express many of your opinions as facts, as do most of us. But without trying to offend you to badly Sir, I would like to point out you that you never provide accurate data to any of your talking points. As listed in the tread I just read, You use "Probably" as the basis for the data you created. Here are a few items I would like point out, this of course from my subjective review.
> Hunter success is related to your knowledge of the birds, your knowledge of the area you hunt, time of year and weather. Those people who know what they are doing and put in the time scouting kill the most birds (Fact). A person does not buy an airboat or MM because he is semi interested in duck hunting. I have read the posts of people who responded to the informal harvest survey posted here. I talked to a number of people who do a lot of duck hunting, they killed as many birds last year as ever (Fact, not opinion)
> I have hunted on the GSL and Utah WMA 's for over 55 years, Back in the 60's we killed ducks because we knew where to go, we learned from family members who showed us where to go and it worked. In the 70's we hunted out on the south side of the BRBR in our airboats. At that time we thought there we too many airplanes landing on sandbars and parking too close to our goose decoys. They left when we told them their plane might get hit when we shot at ducks and geese. We killed lots of ducks then, it was great hunting! There were thousands of ducks on the GSL and we drove our airboats through there all the time (There were a lot of airboats in that area then). It was not the Airboats that made them leave it was the weather (Fact)!
> I and my boys use our mm early in the season because we have really good spots at FB. I know a number of people who kill lots of ducks on FB because they put in the time and they know what they are doing. We walked the main dike at FB a couple of times last year, and yes there were SKYBUSTERS. But you know what, we went to that same place we always do (For the last 13 years) and we shot ducks (Fact)!
> ...


WELL SAID!!


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

paddler213 said:


> ...hunting is a privilege, not a right.... Just as hunting is not a right, running your MMs on public land isn't a God-given right, either....


i disagree. i have the right to hunt my birds, in my country, in my free time. its my right to choose to go hunting. i have the right to run my boat on my public lands and my public lakes, just like you have the right to hunt your birds and paddle or walk anywhere you want on your public lands. thats what makes America great!


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> [quote="Duckinator II":31oro2rl]Paddler123 , I and a lot of others take considerable exception to what you have listed above, and many of your comments over the last several months. You express many of your opinions as facts, as do most of us. But without trying to offend you to badly Sir, I would like to point out you that you never provide accurate data to any of your talking points. As listed in the tread I just read, You use "Probably" as the basis for the data you created. Here are a few items I would like point out, this of course from my subjective review.
> Hunter success is related to your knowledge of the birds, your knowledge of the area you hunt, time of year and weather. Those people who know what they are doing and put in the time scouting kill the most birds (Fact). A person does not buy an airboat or MM because he is semi interested in duck hunting. I have read the posts of people who responded to the informal harvest survey posted here. I talked to a number of people who do a lot of duck hunting, they killed as many birds last year as ever (Fact, not opinion)
> I have hunted on the GSL and Utah WMA 's for over 55 years, Back in the 60's we killed ducks because we knew where to go, we learned from family members who showed us where to go and it worked. In the 70's we hunted out on the south side of the BRBR in our airboats. At that time we thought there we too many airplanes landing on sandbars and parking too close to our goose decoys. They left when we told them their plane might get hit when we shot at ducks and geese. We killed lots of ducks then, it was great hunting! There were thousands of ducks on the GSL and we drove our airboats through there all the time (There were a lot of airboats in that area then). It was not the Airboats that made them leave it was the weather (Fact)!
> I and my boys use our mm early in the season because we have really good spots at FB. I know a number of people who kill lots of ducks on FB because they put in the time and they know what they are doing. We walked the main dike at FB a couple of times last year, and yes there were SKYBUSTERS. But you know what, we went to that same place we always do (For the last 13 years) and we shot ducks (Fact)!
> ...


WELL SAID!! [/quote:31oro2rl]

+2


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

MM are just another double edged tool; they allow better access but cause more bird disturbance. They also damage SAV and limit regrowth. The amazing thing to me is that those with vested interests refuse to admit they can be a problem. Are dike hunters a problem? Well, they probably have higher crippling rates than more conscientious hunters, and judging by the FB cleanup last year, leave more trash. But they don't really disturb too many birds, maybe a few ruddies, but many of the birds don't even flinch. They don't damage much habitat, and if they set up on another hunter, at least it's just another dike hunter. On the plus side, their ammo purchases help keep the manufacturers in business. Personally, I think dike hunters do far less harm to the marsh than MMs. 

Hunting really is a privilege, not a right. Running your MM on public ground is no more a right that driving on public roads. When you someone loses their license, they say his driving privileges were suspended, not his driving rights. It's guys who assume they have a right to run roughshod over our public lands who are at the heart of the problem. Hopefully, your privilege to run your MMs on our WMAs will be curtailed in the near future.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

paddler213 said:


> Hopefully, your privilege to run your MMs on our WMAs will be curtailed in the near future.


ditto on the use of your **** canoe :twisted:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> Personally, I think dike hunters do far less harm to the marsh than MMs. most do not agree with your theory, and are smart enough to know the damage is equally created
> 
> It's guys who assume they have a right to run roughshod over our public lands who are at the heart of the problem. Hopefully, your privilege to run your MMs on our WMAs will be curtailed in the near future.


if you ever used your whole brain, you would hope that all the slobs action were curtailed, but its hard to use the whole thing when its crammed up your cornhole.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2011)

MOJO for Vice President with that quote!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Duckinator, that was a great read and really put things into perspective on how most of us waterfowlers feel. Lots of thought obviously went into your post. Excellent!


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

Duckinator and Mojo for the shared Presidency!!! This has been an awesome thread with lots of interesting opinions on both sides of a variety of issues. This is what makes forums like this great!
R


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## Duckinator II (Nov 23, 2010)

paddler213 said:


> Hunting really is a privilege, not a right. Running your MM on public ground is no more a right that driving on public roads. When you someone loses their license, they say his driving privileges were suspended, not his driving rights. It's guys who assume they have a right to run roughshod over our public lands who are at the heart of the problem. Hopefully, your privilege to run your MMs on our WMAs will be curtailed in the near future.


OK, what is your point, the only thing you have said above is that you do not like MMs, you have been saying that for the last 4 months. The last time I looked in the parking lot in FB, or drove down Turpin dike in my MM, there were a whole lot more MMs than there were canoes. I had a good time, shot lots of ducks and enjoyed the time in the marsh as did the majority of the MMs. Try something different, that is the great thing about America, no one is saying you have to go to FB and paddle your canoe. If the majority are happy  , why don't you assocaite with those of similar interests. Try the Sierra Club, Green Peace or PETA. Because you seem like a very unhappy person in the circumstances you find yourself at FB, paddling your canoe and not being able to find a place that meets your expectations. Maybe you are the one that needs a change! :?: Have a nice day, and when we are driving our MMs down Turpin Dike next fall we all look forward to seeing canoes next fall  :shock:


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Duckinator, if that is indeed your real name, I have been talking about the need for more motorless areas for years, not just four months. Search my posts on here and the other forums; most are very insightful.  In fact, the major flaw in your argument is that only 20% of Utah's waterfowlers use MM, while over 70% walk in, paddle, or ride a bike. I'll gladly grant you MM guys 20% of our WMAs boatable waters. Currently, something like 94% of our WMA acres are open to motorboats. That needs to change, and fast. Hopefully the new survey will support the idea.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

All these "facts" and people stating things as "facts" and if these "facts" are really "facts" or not are more opinion than anything, ..........but I don't think that it would take 500 million dollars and 50 biologists to agree that the superhighway of boats running through duck and gooseville is a good thing. Especially when you have a percentage of the mm users who feel so entitled about their purpose and position in the marsh and very little if not zero of it is about respect. These folks are truely the worst *encroachers* in the marsh......huge amounts of force and power and little to keep them in check.
Mm's are I truely believe the *encroaching *issue with waterfowl. Wild critters and people interacting regularly is tough on wild critters.
Yea, Joe Shmoe dike hunter plays a part of it, and it's been said, we all are part of the pressure on the birds, but I know it wouldn't take $500,000,000.00 and 50 biologists to tell people that waterfowl can avoid Joe a lot easier than the mudmotor superhighway in the marsh.
People talk about there being fewer people and the same amount of boats now than in the past. I really would like to know what the percentage of people in the field 25 years ago ran boats vs. the percentage of the people in the field that now run boats. I'll bet its way disproportionate. 
Seems to me that there a grundles more boats on the pond now than there were 25 years ago.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I will ask this question again.......What revenue does a non-motorized boat generate for the state of Utah? I know what I pay and others pay to register our MM boats and Airboats. I really don't think the state would want to lose that revenue. Just sayin'


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> I will ask this question again.......What revenue does a non-motorized boat generate for the state of Utah? I know what I pay and others pay to register our MM boats and Airboats. I really don't think the state would want to lose that revenue. Just sayin'


As Tex was saying early on in this thread, the decisions about the issues won't make sense anyway because it's being driven by underlying things and needs not necessarily what's best or make the most sense. Your just bringing it up again in a different way.

Your argument indeed has logic. If you look at and follow the money, who gives a rats azz about a duck or goose......the problem and answer to this is that your selling yourself out if your truely a sportsman. You win, but yet you'll loose.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> paddler213 said:
> 
> 
> > And, don't you think those teenaged boys with minimal gear, no boat, etc, could have a better hunt if they didn't have to compete with MMs?
> ...


I like newbie hunters. Unethical slob hunters I can deal with if it's because they are ignorant *not because they are slobs and unethical as a short cut to being successful *like some other folks that your talking about.

Everyone wants more, right now. That's the trouble. It takes little work (true get out and spend time in the marsh work) and little thought to buy a mm or airboat to put yourself on birds. There's folks that admit to shooting the roosts and pushing birds on here right now.

To work the birds and work with the birds is tough and most folks won't have it. They want it now with little effort or respect.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I have hunted waterfowl for 20 years here in Utah and I honestly don't believe it has gone down hill. I harvest just as many birds now as I always have. I hunt a minimum of 3 days a week during the season, so I'm not just an opening weekend warrior. I see just as many birds now as I have for the last 20 years. I was successful without a boat and I have success with a boat, I prefer a boat because I can take 3 guys, dog and dozens of decoys. I think the biggest factor for ducks leaving is the freeze, but I still find ducks to shoot clear to the last day of the season and I am not in a boat. I understand that a "quality hunt" has different meanings to different people, but I still truly believe we have some of the best quality waterfowling in the country.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

paddler213 said:


> Duckinator, if that is indeed your real name, I have been talking about the need for more motorless areas for years, not just four months. Search my posts on here and the other forums; most are very insightful.  In fact, the major flaw in your argument is that only 20% of Utah's waterfowlers use MM, while over 70% walk in, paddle, or ride a bike. I'll gladly grant you MM guys 20% of our WMAs boatable waters. Currently, something like 94% of our WMA acres are open to motorboats. That needs to change, and fast. Hopefully the new survey will support the idea.


paddler you are a selfish person. you are only trying to make these changes to benefit you are your hunting opportunities. i promise you those 20% of hunters that hunt out of MMs hunt 70% more days of the season then a foot soldier does. like duckinator said, the guys who own mud boats are big time duck hunters! so dont you think the guys who regularly use the WMAs have the more say in what happens with our public marshes then the guy who only hunts opening weekend?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> paddler213 said:
> 
> 
> > Duckinator, if that is indeed your real name, I have been talking about the need for more motorless areas for years, not just four months. Search my posts on here and the other forums; most are very insightful.  In fact, the major flaw in your argument is that only 20% of Utah's waterfowlers use MM, while over 70% walk in, paddle, or ride a bike. I'll gladly grant you MM guys 20% of our WMAs boatable waters. Currently, something like 94% of our WMA acres are open to motorboats. That needs to change, and fast. Hopefully the new survey will support the idea.
> ...


No.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > paddler213 said:
> ...


yes.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="kill_'em_all":190x1zlr]
> ...


yes.[/quote:190x1zlr]

Your entitlement is smothering.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > kill_'em_all said:
> ...


yes.
thats your opinion. not a fact.


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## Wounded Coot (Dec 18, 2010)

Only 2% of utah waterfowlers paddle. Therefore they should be granted exclusive access to 2% of all WMAs. 

97.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

WC


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

Wounded Coot said:


> Only 2% of utah waterfowlers paddle. Therefore they should be granted exclusive access to 2% of all WMAs.
> 
> 97.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
> 
> WC


THANK GOD! SOMEONE GETS IT!! HAHA :lol: i like this idea alot!


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

No.[/quote]

Your entitlement is smothering.[/quote]
yes.
thats your opinion. not a fact.[/quote]

Its fact. Its friggin hard to even breath after reading many of your posts (some of the breathing difficulty I'll have to admit, is due to laughter however).


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

ok gals; i now moore bout coot than woonded coot about who and what most coot hunters think; and paddler is right on some stuff. LAY OFF PADDLER! specelly you mojo cause you should go back two little rock where everybody in wallmart has the same dna; if i knowed who u guys was I would have pitt attack your dogs cause meen dogs has as much right to the marsh as your lab dogs do; :twisted:


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## hotspot (Jan 12, 2009)

Klark said:


> ok gals; i now moore bout coot than woonded coot about who and what most coot hunters think; and paddler is right on some stuff. LAY OFF PADDLER! specelly you mojo cause you should go back two little rock where everybody in wallmart has the same dna; if i knowed who u guys was I would have pitt attack your dogs cause meen dogs has as much right to the marsh as your lab dogs do; :twisted:


Wow klark you play the uneducated, illiterate ROLE very well! I almost feel sorry for how pathetic you are. Keep up the act!


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

Klark said:


> specelly you mojo cause you should go back two little rock where everybody in wallmart has the same dna;


same DNA huh?? atleast he knows who his father is... im sure theres 3, maybe 4 possibilities for you. although mojo is from the south, he knows how to spell his name, he uses proper grammer and knows proper sentence structure. he can probably say the ABCs without long awkward pauses. he can probably count to 10 without the use of his fingers and doesnt need to take off his socks and shoes to add/subtract large numbers, such as 17. he probably graduated from highschool. he doesnt talk just to hear himself speak. he has valid points on important subjects and makes sense when he talks. he also knows that a pitbull cant swim worth a **** and knows ethics. you on the other hand... not so much.


Klark said:


> if i knowed who u guys was I would have pitt attack your dogs cause meen dogs has as much right to the marsh as your lab dogs do; :twisted:


heres the deal. i dont tolerate mean dogs AT ALL. especially when they are coming after my lab that costs atleast 6 times what your pit does. take that however you want to, but i promise if your dog comes after me or my dog while out hunting, you're gonna witness what my "super dark eagle" is capable of and will be searching for "Pit the coot dog" version 2.

that just tells me what kinda hunter you are and what kind of person you are to even say that. its your responsibility to keep your dog under control while in the marsh. if you cant do that and be the ethical hunter, leave the **** dog home. better yet, you stay home too! 
p.s. i would love to see this pitt in action on a retrieve! ive seen some pretty interesting sights in the marsh, but watching ol' pit in hot pursuit of the wounded wiley coot would have to rank top 10 of the things ive witnessed. its people like you who help FB live up to its famous reputation! by the way, how does he do with hand signals?! o-|| 


hotspot said:


> Wow klark you play the uneducated, illiterate ROLE very well! I almost feel sorry for how pathetic you are. Keep up the act!


haha its so true. i dont even think klark knows how to spell his own name! in most worlds, Klark is spelled with a "C". sadly, these are the kind of people who think they know what is best for our marshes and waterfowl... the highly uneducated people.
good coot hunter = poor duck hunter


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> No.


Your entitlement is smothering.[/quote]
yes.
thats your opinion. not a fact.[/quote]

Its fact. Its friggin hard to even breath after reading many of your posts (some of the breathing difficulty I'll have to admit, is due to laughter however).[/quote]
well im glad i could give you some entertainment... just because you say its a fact, doesnt make it true either. but its ok. i can tell you just know these things, without any evidence or data to back it up. good on ya!  you should change your name to "know_it_all" and klark needs to change his to "coot commander".


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Klark said:


> ok gals; i now moore bout coot than woonded coot about who and what most coot hunters think; and paddler is right on some stuff. LAY OFF PADDLER! specelly you mojo cause you should go back two little rock where everybody in wallmart has the same dna; if i knowed who u guys was I would have pitt attack your dogs cause meen dogs has as much right to the marsh as your lab dogs do; :twisted:


 :lol: I ain't going anywhere yet and I ain't laying off him, you best just worry about incuring my undivided attention. :twisted:

I'm not hard to locate anywhere I go, I'm the only loud ******* around these parts, so I will be easy for you to find, hell come on out to the Farmington Bay goose nesting project on the 5th cause I'll be there.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> Klark said:
> 
> 
> > specelly you mojo cause you should go back two little rock where everybody in wallmart has the same dna;
> ...


 -_O- -_O-


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

Ha! Klark is the best tool that we have to expose the goofiness of the *anti *crowd that wants to restrict the regular duck hunter. I would bet he is also on this forum under another name or two. I also bet he is from Cache Valley. Either way, he is in bed with the *antis* and his true colors will show though sooner or later...patience.
R


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Nobody needs to lay off me. Each post they make demonstrates their overdeveloped sense of entitlement and ignorance/denial of what MMs are doing to our marshes. I look at them as an opportunity to inform and provide cautions regarding running their internal combustion driven toys through our marshes. It's amusing to see Jimmy get riled up, though I sometimes feel like I'm poking a caged dog with a stick. But he seems to enjoy the banter, so I don't feel too guilty. I can't wait to trade him a duck hunt for a chukar hunt. He'll be breathing so hard that he'll be speechless for maybe the first time is his life.  

Over 70% of our waterfowlers don't use motors. Why should a 20% user group be allowed to screw things up for the majority? I guarantee you that when the majority finally speaks up, the DWR will listen, and more motorless areas will result. If and when the ecological impacts of MMs are studied, and if they are shown to be significant, it will be game over. Until then, I expect the Division to rely on the surveys.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> Nobody needs to lay off me. Each post they make demonstrates their overdeveloped sense of entitlement and ignorance/denial of what MMs are doing to our marshes. I look at them as an opportunity to inform and provide cautions regarding running their internal combustion driven toys through our marshes. It's amusing to see Jimmy get riled up, though I sometimes feel like I'm poking a caged dog with a stick. But he seems to enjoy the banter, so I don't feel too guilty. I can't wait to trade him a duck hunt for a chukar hunt. He'll be breathing so hard that he'll be speechless for maybe the first time is his life.
> 
> Over 70% of our waterfowlers don't use motors. Why should a 20% user group be allowed to screw things up for the majority? I guarantee you that when the majority finally speaks up, the DWR will listen, and more motorless areas will result. If and when the ecological impacts of MMs are studied, and if they are shown to be significant, it will be game over. Until then, I expect the Division to rely on the surveys.


You ain't never seen me riled for real, and frankly you do not ever want to.

I enjoy shoving your crap back in your face. I look at it as a public service to all the water fowlers since my "banter" with you frees up the efforts and time of those dedicated guys like R who fight the fight that needs to be fought. They shouldn't have to constantly detract time and effort dealing with the extremist views of a few folks; they have much more important irons in the fire that need their attention. :shock:

We won't be going on any chukar hunts together unless on horseback. I had to give up a lot of the hardcore backcountry hunting I used to do because of another doctors work, who knew that surgery that was supposed to fix you problem could actually make you knee problem worst? :twisted:


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Mojo1 said:


> We won't be going on any chukar hunts together unless on horseback. I had to give up a lot of the hardcore backcountry hunting I used to do because of another doctors work, who knew that surgery that was supposed to fix you problem could actually make you knee problem worst? :twisted:


I'll gladly give you some names of doctors who could help with your knee, Jimmy. You're too young to write it off. Get it fixed, and we'll chase some devil birds on foot. Horses can't go where I'll take you. :mrgreen:


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## Josh Noble (Jul 29, 2008)

HA! is right R. I just found this thread and to be perfectly honest I feel like my IQ has dropped a bit after reading it. :lol: (it's not that high to begin with...lol)
As for the carp deal. I found this interesting picture...It's not my photo and it's not from here but it is still pretty interesting.








We really could see some great improvement with good aquatic vegetation if we could remove 70% of the carp. It's a dream...but I sure would like to see it.

Now onto the proclaimed MM issue... :? 
I still don't see the connection between dike walkers, bicyclists, other foot soldiers and paddlers. Three of the before mentioned groups use their legs to access the marsh while one uses their arms. I still don't and probably never will agree that paddlers are to be grouped with the "leg" access people. So, if my thinking is correct we shouldn't be grouping the paddlers with any other user group due to their uniqueness. Ok, so based on the last DWR survey give or take 3% of the user groups accessed our WMA's by the primary method of paddling and of that 3% only half (1.5% of the total user group) thought that they needed additional non-motorized area.
Well based off of my personal, in state study with the help of some of our great division employees we've broke down the major WMA's by category.

Total WMA acres 68,394 
Total boat-able acres 4177.5 
Total closed water acres 806.3 
Total non-boatable/motorized acres 2400.7

You do the math...does 3% of the user base need more area?

To further this we haven't pinned down exactly how much of the WMA's total number of acres have been taken over by frag. I do believe that whatever that number is if we were to remove only 50% of it we wouldn't be having this discussion. :O•-:


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

The mud motor deal is commercialization of the sport at it's best. Selfish people wanting more,...... RIGHT NOW and little to no respect. I keep hearing the mm crowd talk about all the effort it takes to put birds in the bag. Really and truly, how much thought or effort does it really take to drive out into the marsh and get on birds, blowing through them, hunting whats left of the few roosts, etc?
To work the birds and work with the birds is tough and is actually what takes some real time and effort. A big chunk of Mm owners/runners won't have it. They want it now with little effort and/or respect.
Mud motor owners, for the most part, are the worst *encroachers *we have in the marsh ......huge amounts of force and power and little to keep them in check.

It doesn't take a bunch of money and or a bunch of guys with extra letters after their name to figure out that a glob of mm's running up and down the mm superhighway in the marsh isn't a good thing for wild fowl.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Josh, I'm pretty comfortable your IQ has been unaffected by this thread, as your post is the same as your previous on this topic. And your viewpoint is one way to look at the issue. But the paddlers, peddlers and walkers all share a single common trait, they don't use motors to access their hunting areas. So, they have range and speed limitations that MMs do not. That's why I think all units that are less than 2 miles from the ramp to the farthest open water should be closed to MM. A decent paddler or walker can cover two miles in less than an hour, cyclists probably faster than that.

Currently, only Pintail and the NE pond at HC are ramp accessible. The others, Crystal and Rainbow, are best approached by MM or AB. I mean, do you really think the Crystal being motor free really helps the 70% of guys who don't use motors? It's 5 miles from the parking area!! Pintail is ~346 acres, I think the NW pond at HC may be about the same. I calculated the boatable acreage a while back, and came up with a total of 7485 acres that are ramp accessible and boatable. I used a service called Mapcard, and your number of 4177.5 is probably incorrect. I'd be interested to see your methodology. Counting Pintail and HC, about 10% of our boatable waters are closed to MMs, when it should be 70%. Hopefully we can reach that figure soon.


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## Josh Noble (Jul 29, 2008)

1BandMan said:


> The mud motor deal is commercialization of the sport at it's best. Selfish people wanting more,...... RIGHT NOW and little to no respect. I keep hearing the mm crowd talk about all the effort it takes to put birds in the bag. Really and truly, how much thought or effort does it really take to drive out into the marsh and get on birds, blowing through them, hunting whats left of the few roosts, etc?
> To work the birds and work with the birds is tough and is actually what takes some real time and effort. A big chunk of Mm owners/runners won't have it. They want it now with little effort and/or respect.
> Mud motor owners, for the most part, are the worst *encroachers *we have in the marsh ......huge amounts of force and power and little to keep them in check.
> 
> It doesn't take a bunch of money and or a bunch of guys with extra letters after their name to figure out that a glob of mm's running up and down the mm superhighway in the marsh isn't a good thing for wild fowl.


Just for clarification Band we're not asking for ANYMORE but perhaps we should be. Looking at the acreage of the WMA's and how they're allocated we really should be approaching the Division about some increased opportunity, perhaps even requesting that we take some of the current areas that are not accessible and turning them into to motorized areas. :O•-:

MM are NOT the biggest encroachers in the marsh...lol Heck bud we're limited to roughly 4,400 acres...I'm guessing there's a bit more frag out on the WMA's than 4,400 acres... :lol: (Which wasn't there 10 years ago!!)


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## Josh Noble (Jul 29, 2008)

paddler213 said:


> Josh, I'm pretty comfortable your IQ has been unaffected by this thread, as your post is the same as your previous on this topic. And your viewpoint is one way to look at the issue. But the paddlers, peddlers and walkers all share a single common trait, they don't use motors to access their hunting areas. So, they have range and speed limitations that MMs do not. That's why I think all units that are less than 2 miles from the ramp to the farthest open water should be closed to MM. A decent paddler or walker can cover two miles in less than an hour, cyclists probably faster than that.
> 
> Currently, only Pintail and the NE pond at HC are ramp accessible. The others, Crystal and Rainbow, are best approached by MM or AB. I mean, do you really think the Crystal being motor free really helps the 70% of guys who don't use motors? It's 5 miles from the parking area!! Pintail is ~346 acres, I think the NW pond at HC may be about the same. I calculated the boatable acreage a while back, and came up with a total of 7485 acres that are ramp accessible and boatable. I used a service called Mapcard, and your number of 4177.5 is probably incorrect. I'd be interested to see your methodology. Counting Pintail and HC, about 10% of our boatable waters are closed to MMs, when it should be 70%. Hopefully we can reach that figure soon.


P,
Once again we simply disagree. I still don't, and again probably never will, understand the need for ramp accessible non-motorized areas. If you're so willing to bow your back and paddle then why not rig up some sort of land cart for your beloved canoe and have at it! It's pointless to discuss this with you as you've got your point of view and we've got ours. I will say this though, I am planning on spending a lot more time on Pintail lake and HC's non-motorized units this next year. I want to see how much better the waterfowling opportunities really are there. 8)

On a completely different and unrelated note I did go shoot some huns with my ol' pappy a couple weeks ago. Great times and even better eats!
You might be on to something with the upland game deal...lol

Josh


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> The mud motor deal is commercialization of the sport at it's best. Selfish people wanting more,...... RIGHT NOW and little to no respect. I keep hearing the mm crowd talk about all the effort it takes to put birds in the bag. Really and truly, how much thought or effort does it really take to drive out into the marsh and get on birds, blowing through them, hunting whats left of the few roosts, etc?
> To work the birds and work with the birds is tough and is actually what takes some real time and effort. A big chunk of Mm owners/runners won't have it. They want it now with little effort and/or respect.


clearly you dont hunt ducks very much by any means. just becasue you have a MM or airboat, doesnt mean youre gonna go out and smash limits any time you want. theres alot more to it then that. it takes just as much skill, effort and scouting time to be successful as it does for someone who walks or paddles to their hunting spot. some of the best duck shoots i have had in my life were not out of a boat. i put in the time to figure out where the ducks were, i had to walk a long way carying decoys on my back and we pounded them. duck hunting is not about using boats, but it sure makes it more enjoyable.

everyone has their own way of doing things. some use boats and kill ducks. others use bicycles and kill ducks. i agree with what josh has said! we are not asking for anymore areas to use, but maybe we should be........? :idea:


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Josh Noble said:


> P,
> Once again we simply disagree. I still don't, and again probably never will, understand the need for ramp accessible non-motorized areas. If you're so willing to bow your back and paddle then why not rig up some sort of land cart for your beloved canoe and have at it! It's pointless to discuss this with you as you've got your point of view and we've got ours. I will say this though, I am planning on spending a lot more time on Pintail lake and HC's non-motorized units this next year. I want to see how much better the waterfowling opportunities really are there. 8)
> 
> On a completely different and unrelated note I did go shoot some huns with my ol' pappy a couple weeks ago. Great times and even better eats!
> ...


Josh, that ramp accessibility is confusing, it really should be called parking area accessible. It means the jumping off place. As I said above, places like Rainbow and Crystal aren't ramp accessible, nor are the parking areas anywhere near the units. Hope that clears that up.

I had a great time hunting the uplands this year. I looked through my photos the other day, and I hunted upland game 21 times, and waterfowl 7 times. I paddled twice, walked in once, and hunted the ice 4 times.

If you're interested, I'll take you along next year for grouse or chukar. My GSP is doing some fine work despite suffering from a lack of skilled training. Here are a few pictures, this thread could really use a hijack:

If you look really close, you can see my hunting partner making his way across the snowfield near the top:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... 1368-1.jpg

This is looking back up the way we came. The truck is on the other side of the mountain:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... G_1361.jpg]

Other random photos:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... G_1218.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... G_1219.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... 0016-2.jpg

This one died 2K vertical feet above the truck:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... P_0002.jpg

Heidi has a lot of natural ability and drive:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... nPoint.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... 1299-1.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... G_1326.jpg

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af3 ... G_1385.jpg


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## Josh Noble (Jul 29, 2008)

Good night that is a great looking dog P!
I don't know that I'm in good enough physical condition to hunt those little suckers. I've said for years "Chukar hunters are WALKING proof that duck hunters are smarter!" 
My old man giggles every time I say that to him. 
Sorry for the hi-jack everyone...lets get back to the stuff that really matters...lol


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> Josh, that ramp accessibility is confusing, it really should be called parking area accessible. It means the jumping off place. As I said above, places like Rainbow and Crystal aren't ramp accessible, nor are the parking areas anywhere near the units. Hope that clears that up.


It is only as confusing as you made it, should have clearly asked for what you want.

Personally I don't see what the big deal is, if I want to dump my paddle boat in somewhere without a ramp or parking lot, I simply pull up and over to the side, unstrap and drag it out of the truck right there, then I go park at the nearest lot and walk back to it. I did it numerous times this season at several areas.

If you want in an area bad enough, you do the work it takes, I know that must be a strange concept for most cause I was all alone on most of those trips. :lol:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

> I am planning on spending a lot more time on Pintail lake and HC's non-motorized units this next year. I want to see how much better the waterfowling opportunities really are there. 8)


I don't about you boys out here, but if I had a place that hardly anyone frequented and the hunting was supposedly so great on, I would keep my mouth shut about it least the crowds descend on it. :shock: :lol:

I recon I better try those 2 out myself next season.


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## coachchris (Dec 5, 2010)

Paddler

So in seven trips, only three of which you would be able to even see MM's, you were able to gather enough data to show that MM are destroying the marsh? I am new to the sport, so when I first read some of your posts I was intrigued and thought their might be some validity to what you say. But as I've read these forums over the past year it seems like you simply have some sort of vendetta against MM's yet fail to address other, more pressing issues like phrag, or water levels.


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## Josh Noble (Jul 29, 2008)

Mojo1 said:


> > I am planning on spending a lot more time on Pintail lake and HC's non-motorized units this next year. I want to see how much better the waterfowling opportunities really are there. 8)
> 
> 
> I don't about you boys out here, but if I had a place that hardly anyone frequented and the hunting was supposedly so great on, I would keep my mouth shut about it least the crowds descend on it. :shock: :lol:
> ...


Sounds like a party!! Perhaps this year we'll mix up the UMMA annual duck shoot and only have paddle boats? Even better yet we could introduce our crew to that non-motorized pond at HC. We could motor out, throw our marsh rats and layouts over the dike and paddle from there. Heck we might even do two shoots this year, one on HC and one at Public. Picture this, we all launch our motor boats in Pintail lake, no keys in the boat of course, and push pole or paddle our way across the pond. That should turn a few heads... :lol:

This way we could introduce the masses to this form of hunting. Perhaps even I might see the light...


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2011)

paddler213 said:


> I had a great time hunting the uplands this year. I looked through my photos the other day, and I hunted upland game 21 times, and waterfowl 7 times. I paddled twice, walked in once, and hunted the ice 4 times.


wait a sec... you only hunted waterfowl 7 (SEVEN) times this year and your complaining about your experience, the lack of birds you saw and you are blaming it all on MMs?? you just lost all credibility with not just me, but im sure many other people who have listened to you bitch about your "studies" you have conducted and "opinions/facts" gathered. i thought you were a die-hard common utah foot soldier who hunted every weekend and got to experience first hand the effect of motorized boats in the marsh?! did you ever take a second to think that maybe you just picked 7 bad days to go duck hunting throughout the season? i hunted 50+ days this year and i would dare say 15-20 of those days were less then impressive as far as ducks harvested/ducks seen. you cant expect to burn 'em every day!

stick to upland game hunting!! you fit in with that crowd much better since youre all for walkin miles on end with little to no results most days afield. maybe you should conduct a survey in chukar habitat and how the use of ATVs/trucks to access the rough terrain they live in could possibly play a role in chukar numbers in certain areas?

geez........ some people! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :O•-: :O•-: :O•-:


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## 357bob (Sep 30, 2007)

I am usually pretty quiet on these things but I just have to ask... 
Is it ramp accessable motorless or mud motors are tearing up the marsh?
Sounds typical environmental extremist to use ecological concerns to push a personal recreational agenda.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

[quote="paddler213 I looked through my photos the other day, and I hunted upland game 21 times, and waterfowl 7 times. I paddled twice, walked in once, and hunted the ice 4 times. 
[/quote]

YOU ONLY HUNT WATERFOWL 7 DAYS A SEASON AND WANT TO MAKE ALL THESE MOTORLESS RESTRICTIONS? AND ONLY PADDLED TWICE, YET YOUR ENTIRE AGENDA IS BASED AROUND YOU BEING ABLE TO PADDLE YOUR BOAT WITH NO MM COMPETITION. HOLY SHEEP **** YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING............7 DAYS A SEASON, HELL I DO THAT IN A WEEK! :?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> paddler213 said:
> 
> 
> > I looked through my photos the other day, and I hunted upland game 21 times, and waterfowl 7 times. I paddled twice, walked in once, and hunted the ice 4 times.
> ...


Yeah I was kind of thinking somewhat along the same lines, I paddled my shealth more times than even he went hunting, and yet I am told I don't "understand" the problem, what's that smell associated with this????? :shock:


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

7 times, only 7 times I can't get over that sorry *(u)*
No wonder you don't find quality hunting, you don't invest quality time in hunting........


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Mojo1 said:


> Yeah I was kind of thinking somewhat along the same lines, I paddled my shealth more times than even he went hunting, and yet I am told I don't "understand" the problem, what's that smell associated with this????? :shock:


I have been looking at getting a stealth or otter for some of the unaccessible areas I hunt, how do you like the stealth?


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Yep, I only paddled twice last year. However, I've been paddling a bunch since the mid-nineties. Back then, before the MMs, I'd leave the Turpin launch two hours before shooting time, paddle three miles in the dark out to where the water opened up, set up and hunt. Didn't have to worry about getting run over or anything. A couple years later, I discovered the GWT hunting on Unit 1 at FB. Aldrich and I were pretty much the only ones out there during the week, it was awesome. Tom and I were very disappointed when the biology changed, it turned into a spoonie pond, then gadwall and divers. 

I've hunted pretty much every WMA in the state out of my canoe over the past 16 years, and even once paddled three miles across the GSL up to the Layton ice flow, in the dark, for an ice hunt. I have lots of experience on our WMAs over a lot of years, and have watched with dismay the rise of the MMs. I have seen the prop scars, the overcrowding, etc. My decision to hunt more upland game this year was based partly on my dog, and in large part not wanting to deal with MMs and the resultant difficulty in finding a quality hunt. Frankly, upland hunting offers a higher quality experience in Utah right now. I had some nice waterfowl hunts, too, but it's just not that easy to compete with MMs as a non-motorized hunter. That's the issue here, isn't it? Why should a 20% user group be allowed to run the majority out of the marsh?

My interest in the motorless issue is not selfish, and the fact that I didn't hunt open water last year should demonstrate that to the naysayers. My concern is the habitat, the birds, overall hunter success, and yes, those Utah waterfowlers who want to enjoy our marshes who may not be able to afford expensive MMs. I think our marshes will be healthier, hold more birds, grow more food, and offer a better experience for the majority of Utah's hunters when MM use is restricted. I'm not worried about me, I can go to Canada a couple times a year and find good local hunting. MM users want to run their boats regardless of the impacts on the marsh and other hunters. So, tell me, who's being selfish here?


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## muledeer#1 (Dec 2, 2008)

They need to do something about the fishing at the strawberry, I went ONCE and didn't catch a 5 pounder. They need to get those bait fishers off that lake so my flyfishing is more affective! -Ov-


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> Mojo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I was kind of thinking somewhat along the same lines, I paddled my shealth more times than even he went hunting, and yet I am told I don't "understand" the problem, what's that smell associated with this????? :shock:
> ...


I like mine, of the different paddle boats I have rode in; it is the most stable of the lot. I can carry both dogs, me, and several dozen dekes with no problem. I have found the best paddle (easiest to use) for it to be a long double bladed Kayak paddle.

If you want sometime we will take it out and let you try it.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

muledeer#1 said:


> They need to do something about the fishing at the strawberry, I went ONCE and didn't catch a 5 pounder. They need to get those bait fishers off that lake so my flyfishing is more affective! -Ov-


I just bought 5 new ATV's for the family to go deer and elk hunting. It burns my azz that people want to tell me what to do with my ATV's and want to close down more and more area (roads and trails alike) limiting my ability to get where the deer and elk are. Why they descriminate against me as a fellow big game hunter makes me want to hire an attourney. Every year one of my favorite trails to one of my favorite meadows is closed....it pizzes me off. I used to have some great tree stands near those meadows. Since it's now a two or three mile walk back in there I had to take them out. Its a cryin' shame, I tell ya. 
I think they ought to let me and my family (and my aunt's, uncles and cousins, nephew's, neices.....you know my entire family) be able to go where ever we please not just designated trails and roads. I would really like to make some good deer and elk drives without leaving our 4 wheelers and UTV's...you know, get our wheelers in a line and push the elk and deer to where we can get some good hunts and shooting. Wheelers leave very little footprint and none of us intend on going back over where we came from making a trail or anything.....Wheelers really have little or no impact on the environment and we should be able to go wherever our wheelers can take us. Limiting anyone from doing whatever they want to in the field hunting will take away from all our opportunities and take us down that slippery slope that none of us want to travel.
Do you think we could share a similar big game survey as the mm' users so we could get some similar results???????
Maybe we could model one after the bioeconomics survey or something????


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## Skye Hansen (Mar 23, 2009)

paddler213 said:


> * I had some nice waterfowl hunts, too, but it's just not that easy to compete with MMs as a non-motorized hunter. That's the issue here, isn't it?
> *


That is the problem with your argument. It is not all about the environment like you sometimes try to imply. The thing is just because it is difficult to compete against mudmotors does not mean that mudmotors should not be allowed in the marsh.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Skye Hansen said:


> paddler213 said:
> 
> 
> > * I had some nice waterfowl hunts, too, but it's just not that easy to compete with MMs as a non-motorized hunter. That's the issue here, isn't it?
> ...


Your right, paddlers just jealous of mm runners.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> I just bought 5 new ATV's for the family to go deer and elk hunting. It burns my azz that people want to tell me what to do with my ATV's and want to close down more and more area (roads and trails alike) limiting my ability to get where the deer and elk are. Why they descriminate against me as a fellow big game hunter makes me want to hire an attourney. Every year one of my favorite trails to one of my favorite meadows is closed....it pizzes me off. I used to have some great tree stands near those meadows. Since it's now a two or three mile walk back in there I had to take them out. Its a cryin' shame, I tell ya.
> I think they ought to let me and my family (and my aunt's, uncles and cousins, nephew's, neices.....you know my entire family) be able to go where ever we please not just designated trails and roads. I would really like to make some good deer and elk drives without leaving our 4 wheelers and UTV's...you know, get our wheelers in a line and push the elk and deer to where we can get some good hunts and shooting. Wheelers leave very little footprint and none of us intend on going back over where we came from making a trail or anything.....Wheelers really have little or no impact on the environment and we should be able to go wherever our wheelers can take us.
> Do you think we could share a similar big game survey as the mm' users so we could get some similar results???????
> Maybe we could model one after the bioeconomics survey or something????


well i hope you feel a little better now that you wrote that very detailed, useless comment. theres is such a place you dream of, the road hunting capitol of utah, THE SKYLINE DRIVE!! have at it! many deer and elk are shot off that road every year. infact, the road hunting success rate is so high, people go back year after year. burn 50$ a weekend through their atvs and have a hell of a time doing it! im the exact opposite when it comes to hunting deer and elk as i am when hunting waterfowl. ive found that once you get your ass off the road, you tend to see more. i know its a crazy concept, but it seems to work for me, so im gonna continue to hunt this way until it dont work no more! 

sadly enough, duck hunting is the same way. you arent gonna kill to much hunting off I-15 or in other words center dike at FB. but! if you get out to where a majority of the people cant get to, youre gonna have a much more enjoyable time! boat or no boat, its gonna benefit you to get awa from most of the people. do your homework, invest your time, put forth some effort and youre sure to have a great experience!

paddler, stick with the upland game hunting. i looked at all your successful pics from your hunts. you seem to be better at that anyways! over 20 hunts, 4 dead chukars and many many miles walked! way to go buddy!!  you burned 'em!!


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## Skye Hansen (Mar 23, 2009)

1BandMan said:


> Skye Hansen said:
> 
> 
> > paddler213 said:
> ...


I don't even own a mudmotor so you cannot try and pull that card. To be honest sometimes I wish I had one but i don't. Just because a mudmotor gives a hunter an advantage it does not mean they should be removed. I have said before that I would be all for more motorless areas *IF* the area was used to the same extent that the areas where boats are allowed is being used. Bottom line lets just be honest why we are having this discussion.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> Skye Hansen said:
> 
> 
> > paddler213 said:
> ...


i dont think paddler is the ONLY ONE who is jealous of MM runners....


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="Skye Hansen":1o8e4y8l]
> ...


i dont think paddler is the ONLY ONE who is jealous of MM runners....  [/quote:1o8e4y8l]

You guys are incredibly amazing. You get right to the heart of things quickly.

We are so very jealous of you guys and your mudmotors.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> [Do you think we could share a similar big game survey as the mm' users so we could get some similar results???????
> Maybe we could model one after the bioeconomics survey or something????


To set the record straight about the bioeconomics survey and how it came about let me share an extract from another forum, it was not dreamed up to justify the existence of MM's, it was drawn up to protect all waterfowl habitat from commercial interests.



> The biometrics survey is part of the effort by the UWA, Airboaters, local Delta members, Friends of the Great Salt Lake and many others to help quantify the economic value constributed to the state by the waterfowling community. This isn't the "be all, end all" of our efforts but will hopefully be one more tool in our tool box in fighting to save the wetlands.
> 
> No public funds were used for the Biometrics Survey. It is fully funded by private money.
> 
> ...


Nice try on the spin, but your a^^ is now in the no spin zone, might as well pack it in, no one is buying your line, they see through to your real agenda.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > I just bought 5 new ATV's for the family to go deer and elk hunting. It burns my azz that people want to tell me what to do with my ATV's and want to close down more and more area (roads and trails alike) limiting my ability to get where the deer and elk are. Why they descriminate against me as a fellow big game hunter makes me want to hire an attourney. Every year one of my favorite trails to one of my favorite meadows is closed....it pizzes me off. I used to have some great tree stands near those meadows. Since it's now a two or three mile walk back in there I had to take them out. Its a cryin' shame, I tell ya.
> ...


Ya Paddler, get a mudmotor or shut the fugg up.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > [Do you think we could share a similar big game survey as the mm' users so we could get some similar results???????
> ...


Ohhhhh.... OK my clairvoyant friend, since you know now, whats my agenda???

What did I mean when I referenced the bioeconomics study??????


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > 1BandMan said:
> ...


so far the ONLY person who is with you fighting on your side, is paddler. hes not a very credible source anymore after he admitted to all of us that he is not really an avid duck hunter here in utah. he has no clue as to what hes talking about. hes selfish, as are you in what you are fighting for and claim to be the best option for all of us. youre fighting to restrict others who succeed more then you. tell yourself you are not jealous all you want. you and i both know if given the opportunity to hunt out of a MM or go on a GSL airboat hunt, you would be all over that. they are both great experiences and fun as hell. maybe if you tried it a few times you would understand why we like it so much. i honestly believe you arent quite aware of how many birds there really are living in utah marshes. ive literally seen clouds and cloud of birds out thereits unreal. if you got out into these areas where the ducks spend their time, you might really see the big picture here. the numbers are not low. infact every year it seems like theres more and more ducks in the area. ive never felt like there was a shortage of birds, even if there was, i'd hunt just as hard. its clear we dont agree on any of these issues. go ahead and survey all the people you want. i promise you will find a majority of the foot soldiers in utah dont mind the use of MMs in the marshes. it has little if any negative effect on them. ive even witnessed on occasion where the use of MMs helped people. we've beat this issue to death. its time for it to die and go away. i appreciate your input, even with it as useless and incorrect as it was, its nice to see that there still are others out there who are concerened about our sport. but before we attack the smaller issues, we need to attack in force the phrag problem and help people understand the GSL is not the community dumping grounds. its not called the Great Salt Lake for nothing. but if we keep allowing people to treat it like the city dump and allow it to be taken over by phrag, there will be nothing GREAT about it in the very near future.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

1BandMan said:


> [Ohhhhh.... OK my clairvoyant friend, since you know now, whats my agenda???
> 
> What did I mean when I referenced the bioeconomics study??????


Is your memory failing you?


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Only a very small percentage of Utah's duck hunters post up on these forums, and most of those are tired of the arguing over the MM issue. Nobody's going to change anybody else's mind. We just need to wait for the surveys, and continue to monitor hunter success, bird counts, etc. We'll see how it goes. Anybody ice fishing??


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

This is pure comedy gold here... So we've got one dude that wants to place MASSIVE restrictions on one group of hunters... Cause he loves the sports so much.. Well it turns out that dude got out 7 times over a 100+ day season??? :lol: :lol: 

To top the whole fiasco off he got his watercraft wet twice??? Are ya ****ting me??

**** paddler keep shoveling the crap.... :lol: :lol:


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

paddler213 said:


> Only a very small percentage of Utah's duck hunters post up on these forums, and most of those are tired of the arguing over the MM issue. Nobody's going to change anybody else's mind. We just need to wait for the surveys, and continue to monitor hunter success, bird counts, etc. We'll see how it goes. Anybody ice fishing??


As far as ice fishing, I have not been this year  I was in Heber working yesterday and drove by Jordanelle, lots of open water on the dam side. I got the itch now and will head to Strawberry tomorrow (weather permitting)


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > [Ohhhhh.... OK my clairvoyant friend, since you know now, whats my agenda???
> ...


WTF??? 
If it were something.......ANYTHING, you would have already posted it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I realize this is just a survey, and these types of inflammatory questions are usually very pointed and for a purpose. But if Utah institutes blind draws and closed days for hunting I will be selling every bit of waterfowl equipment I have. This state has already taken hundreds, if not thousands of miles of stream away from me to fish, are trying to turn big game hunting into a "quality only" experience that puts a general guy who wants to take his son hunting in the hills out of the game, now they want to take duck hunting away from me too? What a joke. 

Sooner or later these decision makers need to quit biting the hand that feeds them. Or there isn't going to be any hunting or fishing left in what used to be one of the true gems in the country.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

> so far the ONLY person who is with you fighting on your side, is paddler. hes not a very credible source anymore after he admitted to all of us that he is not really an avid duck hunter here in utah. he has no clue as to what hes talking about. hes selfish, as are you in what you are fighting for and claim to be the best option for all of us. youre fighting to restrict others who succeed more then you. tell yourself you are not jealous all you want. you and i both know if given the opportunity to hunt out of a MM or go on a GSL airboat hunt, you would be all over that. they are both great experiences and fun as hell. maybe if you tried it a few times you would understand why we like it so much. i honestly believe you arent quite aware of how many birds there really are living in utah marshes. ive literally seen clouds and cloud of birds out thereits unreal. if you got out into these areas where the ducks spend their time, you might really see the big picture here. the numbers are not low. infact every year it seems like theres more and more ducks in the area. ive never felt like there was a shortage of birds, even if there was, i'd hunt just as hard. its clear we dont agree on any of these issues. go ahead and survey all the people you want. i promise you will find a majority of the foot soldiers in utah dont mind the use of MMs in the marshes. it has little if any negative effect on them. ive even witnessed on occasion where the use of MMs helped people. we've beat this issue to death. its time for it to die and go away. i appreciate your input, even with it as useless and incorrect as it was, its nice to see that there still are others out there who are concerened about our sport. but before we attack the smaller issues, we need to attack in force the phrag problem and help people understand the GSL is not the community dumping grounds. its not called the Great Salt Lake for nothing. but if we keep allowing people to treat it like the city dump and allow it to be taken over by phrag, there will be nothing GREAT about it in the very near future.
> 
> 
> > If your right, no matter how many surveys go out and no matter what questions they ask, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. In fact, if your so confident, why would you or any of your fellow mud motor heads be on here deflecting the issue and blaming frag?
> ...


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2011)

paddler right; rest of you guy ackting like a bunch of avery proshafters


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

Hmm....19 pages of nausea. -)O(- This whole argument from both sides is making me sick. I am tired of us against them. I am tired of motorless. I am tired of MMs and air boats and all this crap. I am a duck hunter. Have been for years, and will be no matter what. What bothers me is all of this is making me dislike the "Utah waterfowling community" that I have loved for and been a part of for all these years. Nothing good is coming from all this, nothing. This is not constructive conversation. I am going to go take some Pepto.
Ok I have said my piece.... let the self destruction continue. :?


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2011)

1BandMan said:


> If your right, no matter how many surveys go out and no matter what questions they ask, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. In fact, if your so confident, why would you or any of your fellow mud motor heads be on here deflecting the issue and blaming frag?
> You make it sound like you're the majority. Your far from it. There IS NOT that many mm owners&#8230;&#8230;..yet. Again, you're the poster boy for the reason mud motors shouldn't be restricted, but banned all together.


im not worried. im sick and tired of people like you telling me what i can and cant do. i dont abuse my "privilege" when running my MM. im not deflecting the issue. clearly YOU dont get out very much. seems like theres tons of people who own some sort of motor boat for hunting ducks. go take a look at the FB parking lot next opening day. that place is PACKED full of MMs. if FB is like that, what do you think OB looks like, or WS, or BRBR, or UT lake, or cutler? and thats just a few places out of the many that utah has to offer to hunt with a MM. everyone should have equal say in what happens to their rights and hunting opportunities.

who said the only thing i ever care about is killing things?? theres is so much more to it then that. i love the whole experience of duck hunting from start to finish (except picking up decoys). do you really think i care if i dont kill a bird every time i go?! nope. some days, you get them. some days, you dont. but that just gives you the excuse to get up and go again!

how many times did you go hunting this year?? if its less then 10, you probably should just shut up and go away. your buddy paddler really has no room to talk anymore... :lol:



Klark said:


> paddler right; rest of you guy ackting like a bunch of avery proshafters


Coot Commander, you just need to be quiet period. this conversation is way too advanced for you and you clearly dont understand what your really mad about. coots are not as fragile as ducks. they take harassment extremely well when it comes to MMs . you have nothing to worry about as far as coot migration, habitat and populations are concerned


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Bret said:


> Hmm....19 pages of nausea. -)O(- This whole argument from both sides is making me sick. I am tired of us against them. I am tired of motorless. I am tired of MMs and air boats and all this crap. I am a duck hunter. Have been for years, and will be no matter what. What bothers me is all of this is making me dislike the "Utah waterfowling community" that I have loved for and been a part of for all these years. Nothing good is coming from all this, nothing. This is not constructive conversation. I am going to go take some Pepto.
> Ok I have said my piece.... *let the self destruction continue*. :?


Preach Bret....preach on!


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

"Preach Bret....preach on!"

No thank you sir. I said what I had to say, took some pepto and I am done with this. enjoy...


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

amen Bret


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Bret said:


> I said what I had to say,


And what you said was good. Not that anyone probably listened to it. But many would be wise to lend an ear on this one.


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