# Load Development - To Clean or Not to Clean



## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

What is standard practice in regards to cleaning during muzzleloader load development? Do you clean after every shot? After every 3 shots? Not at all? I understand that answers are probably different depending on what powder you are using. For the sake of this conversation, let's assume BH209 (as that is my favorite ML powder).

Also, do you test loads with the ramrod in place or removed from the gun?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Yes, I at least swab every shot with a patch lightly damp with windex. Ramrod removed (although I've never thought about it having any kind of accuracy effect). I use a longer range rod for loading / cleaning though...


-DallanC


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I clean my Black Powder ML after every 5-7 shots or at the end a 5 days (unless I forget until the next year). I clean my 777 powder gun every 8-12 shots or at the end of the season. I usually target shoot with the ram rod on the table. 

But, I'm not trying to get to sub moa. I just want hunting accuracy and the confidence to kill the critter however far away I am comfortable shooting. I shoot open sight side-locks with Black and either a roundball, powerbelt or SST. I shoot an inline with a 6-18x40 scope with 777 an SST and some tests of powerbelts as a back-up.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I ran some tests in my gun with dirty shots and found:

Clean barrel, dead on
First dirty shot, 2-3 MOA increase over baseline
Second Dirty shot 4-5 MOA increase over baseline
3rd shot 4-12" MOA increase over baseline (Sabots blowing off petals at that point from to much friction, some rounds cleanly missed my target).
4th shot I might as well be throwing rocks.

So... I'm comfortable with a possible followup shot from a 2nd or *maybe* 3rd shot in a dirty barrel, but if at all possible I'll swab in between. 

YMMV


-DallanC


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

The theory is that when you are developing a load, muzzy or other, is that you want to keep as many variables exactly the same except for the one you are experimenting with. Any variation in your pattern can then be contributed to the component that you are experimenting with. So yes, I would clean..at least to the same degree, between each shot. Probably as DallonC said, at least a quick swab between shots. Later on you can experiment with shooting proven loads through barrels that are not clean...one or two shots through them, so you can see how the load might work if you need to take a second or third shot. Some loads seem to work quite differently with a clean or dirty barrel. Remember, I am not just talking about working up your powder charge, but for best accuracy, use these same practices for bullet and primers as well. One more thought to keep in mine, consistency throughout the loading process is probably the biggest single factory in small, or at least predictable groups.

I am not sure what the ramrod in or out has to do with anything?? Ease of cleaning? If your gun shoots differently with the ramrod in a different position, I would opt for the position it will be in when you shoot at the game.


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

I went to the range and did some experimenting yesterday, and had the following observations:

1. My gun shoots tighter groups if I do a quick clean after every shot. A 2nd shot would touch the first shot without cleaning, but it would open up after that.

2. My gun shoots tighter groups without the ramrod in the gun. 

3. Point of impact without the ramrod inserted in the gun is 2" lower (@100yd) than with the ramrod inserted.

4. 105 grains of BH209 starts to get uncomfortable after about 10 shots.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

What kind of gun to you shoot?


-DallanC


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

I have multiple muzzleloaders. All observations from yesterday were with a Remington Ultimate Muzzleloader.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

archerben said:


> I went to the range and did some experimenting yesterday, and had the following observations:
> 
> 1. My gun shoots tighter groups if I do a quick clean after every shot. A 2nd shot would touch the first shot without cleaning, but it would open up after that.
> 
> ...


I'd say you're about there and wouldn't change a thing. Holes touching is darn good(unless you're shooting only 25 yards or something) and at this point you probably just need to move on and make sure your rifle is shooting to point of aim(sight 'er in). I am pretty sure every gun "starts to open up" after the second or third shot without cleaning between shots.
Don't know what to suggest about the ram rod. You certainly need it in the field so maybe you could carry it in your pack or something. Or maybe the gun shoots well enough for hunting with rod in and you only need to sight it in with the rod in place.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

I leave the ram rod in my rifle and use a range rod when working up a load. I want to be able to put at least 3 shots on target incase I need follow up shots so all my work up loads are three shot groups then a wet patch of M-Pro 7, 2 to 3 dry patches and 3 more shots. If I can't get at least a 1/2 inch group at 100 yards with 3 shots I move on to another powder weight, I have never not been able to find a charge weight for a given powder that will put 3 inside a 1/2 inch at 100. I have put as many as 15 shots through multiple muzzleloaders without cleaning and saw no real accuracy degradation but the only way to know for sure is try for yourself.

Once I think I have a load I go home and clean my rifle and put it away for a couple days before I head out to the range again with my good load for 3 more shots starting with a clean cold bore like I carry when hunting. If all goes well then I'm set if not I usually have a couple backup charges to try. If the 3 shots shoot well I usually shoot groups and steel until I can't load the muzzy anymore or accuracy falls apart.


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## DeadI (Sep 12, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Yes, I at least swab every shot with a patch lightly damp with windex. Ramrod removed (although I've never thought about it having any kind of accuracy effect). I use a longer range rod for loading / cleaning though...
> 
> -DallanC


Never heard of using windex! Might have to give that one a try.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

A couple years back I did a little experiment...
I fired one shot with a clean barrel at the first (left target), quickly reloaded and fired at the middle target, quickly reloaded and fired at the right target.
I put a couple Windex patches down the barrel and allowed the barrel to cool for a couple minutes then repeated the sequence twice.

My groups sizes basically doubled between the clean barrel and the next shot but the third shot was similar to the second. Point of impact jumped up a couple inches from the clean barrel to the second shot but then dropped several inches on the third shot.

I did this back with a 1x scope... maybe I'll repeat that now that I've got a spiffy new 12x scope on it.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Projectile type makes a big difference, some projectiles will "scrape off" fouling when they go down. A full bore conical will help with this, roundball patches seem to do it as well I think more due to the lube on the patch, sabots don't like dirty barrels much at all and get scrapped up.


-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

For my smoke poles, I've found that a "clean barrel" isn't the most accurate. (My load is a .44 cal 300 gr. XTP with 110 gr. of FFF triple seven.)

After the first shot, I run a "spit patch" down the barrel and load the next round. My grouping is tighter this way, and I don't need to totally clean the barrel after three to five shots. 

Try it, and it may work for your setup.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

That is usually the case with an "over bore" barrel. Dedicated Roundball barrels for example, are usually a few thousands oversized and do benefit from a fouling charge.

I've not heard of any modern fast twist barrels needing that however, well ever since White stopped making some of their oversized barrels, especially the 52cal ran a really odd overbore size.

-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

DallanC said:


> That is usually the case with an "over bore" barrel. Dedicated Roundball barrels for example, are usually a few thousands oversized and do benefit from a fouling charge.
> 
> I've not heard of any modern fast twist barrels needing that however, well ever since White stopped making some of their oversized barrels, especially the 52cal ran a really odd overbore size.
> 
> -DallanC


My Pro Hunter .50 and my CVA's all shoot tighter this way. Haven't tried it in the TC .54 Black Mountain Mag. Guess I have a need to go shoot this weekend.


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