# Pack'in without a permit



## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

So....some of the local city's are finally realizing it _is legal_ to carry a firearm without a CCW.....but, it cannot be ready to fire until two mechanical movements are made...

My questions are:

#1...With a semi-auto, does the clip need to be out of it?
#2...Without the clip installed, can I put the firearm in my pocket, or does it have to be visable? 
#3...If, strapped to my hip, sitting in a vehicle, is this illegal? Would this be considered concealed?
#4...In a vehicle, does it have to be in a case? 
#5...Does the ammo and clip have to be in a seperate area, away from the firearm? 
#6...Does pulling back the slide ( put a shell in ) and taking the safety off constitute 2 movements?

Some of these questions can be answered with common sense and safety issue's, but, I'm just curious what the law might say about this.....It seems some city's are having problems with people carrying..

Any idea's?


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

1-No
2-Visable
3-Conseald by most cops
4-No
5-No
6-Pulling back the slide and pulling the trigger is 2 movements


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## RTMC (Sep 10, 2007)

Assuming #'s 4 and 5 go together(in a vehicle), yes they have to be seperate from each other(Firearm and Ammunition).


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

as long as it is in plain sight and takes two actions to fire you should be good to go.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Does plain sight mean sitting on the dash? On the seat or in the console next to you? Straped to your belt or leg in a holster? Does it need to be visible by passers by, or just by say an officer standing next to your car like he would during a traffic stop type situation? I know if I were a cop and approached a vehicle, then saw a gun sitting in plain sight I would be nervous as hell about it.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

> Pulling back the slide and pulling the trigger is 2 movements


Is taking off the safety and pulling the trigger two movements?

-Just curious.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

If it is on the seat or dash in plain sight then it is not consealed. If you are stopped I would keep both hands on the wheel and let the officer know of the status of the gun. If it is not in plain sight and you don't have a CFP then it should be cased. If you go through a National Park it needs to be cased and unloaded.

If you do have it on the seat or dash and are stopped I would expect to have the officer ask you out of the vehicle and I would think that he would check the gun. JMHO. That is one of the reasons I got my CFP, so I could keep it out of sight or toss a jacket over it or have it on my hip. 

If it is on your hip it isn't in that plain of sight with the seat belt on and some of the types of seats so I think an officer could consider it consealed.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Trooper wrote:


> Is taking off the safety and pulling the trigger two movements?


I think the wording should be 2 actions. I would say yes but I think most officers would say no. Some semi auto DA pistols don't have a safety. I think all agree that they don't want one in the pipe no mater how many actions it takes to fire that round. One could also argue that pulling the slide back is one action and releasing it is another but you still have to press the trigger. Also on a revolver they want the one chamber aligned with the barrel empty and also the one next in line to be empty, which would be 2 trigger presses with a double action, they don't difffer for the single action where it will take 4 actions to do the same thing as a double action but the loaded requirement is the same. At least that is the way I understand it.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

.45 said:


> So....some of the local city's are finally realizing it _is legal_ to carry a firearm without a CCW.....but, it cannot be ready to fire until two mechanical movements are made...
> 
> My questions are:
> 
> ...


To be considered "unloaded", you cannot have a cartridge in the firing position regardless of how many actions it may take to fire. Additionally, they have added the clause about "the operation of any mechanism once", but that only applies to d/a revolvers. They're the only kind of gun I can think of that could have no cartridge in the firing position and still be fired by pulling the trigger. So for a semi-auto, nothing in the chamber is considered unloaded.

You cannot conceal a dangerous weapon on your person without a permit, loaded or not.

Guns are legal in a vehicle if they are in plain sight and unloaded, OR securely encased/not readily accessible for immediate use. A handgun on the seat isn't much different than a rifle on a rack. The law about storing ammo separately is a federal law, and applies when transporting guns through restricted areas such as national parks. It doesn't have anything to do with carrying guns around town. The thing you want to avoid when carrying a gun in your car is having it concealed yet accessible. Make sure its either in plain sight or in a case, not readily accessible.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

So if I wanted to keep my pistol accessible in the car, but out of sight (say stored in the console, or the door pocket), I would need a CC permit, even if it is unloaded (nothing chambered)? What if it were holstered?


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Yes, if you want it in the console or glove box you will want to have your CFP.


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## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

ChaserOfAllBirds said:


> So if I wanted to keep my pistol accessible in the car, but out of sight (say stored in the console, or the door pocket), I would need a CC permit, even if it is unloaded (nothing chambered)? What if it were holstered?


Either way you would be better off getting a CC permit. Regardless of legal or illegal more than likely if a weapon is spotted by an officer during a traffic stop you are going to have several guns pointed at you until you comply with the officers demands and everything is worked out as far as what laws may or may not have been broken. Same goes for a card carrying CC permit holder if he or she didn't advise the officer they were armed and the officer happens to spot the gun, then there is a serious problem. Just my two cents worth.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

A few more questions for you Uintaman, just because of your perspective:

Say I get pulled over for an infraction such as speeding, a tail light that is out, or something of this nature, and I have guns in the car with me, but they are in their cases. Would it be best to disclose to the officer that they are there, or just mind my business and handle the situation without saying anything?

What if I were a CC holder, and got pulled over because my vehicle matched the description of someone they were looking for; would a disclosure of firearms present be advised, or once again, knowing that I am in full compliance of the law just keep my mouth shut unless the officer inquires?


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## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

ChaserOfAllBirds said:


> A few more questions for you Uintaman, just because of your perspective:
> 
> *Say I get pulled over for an infraction such as speeding, a tail light that is out, or something of this nature, and I have guns in the car with me, but they are in their cases. Would it be best to disclose to the officer that they are there, or just mind my business and handle the situation without saying anything?*
> What if I were a CC holder, and got pulled over because my vehicle matched the description of someone they were looking for; would a disclosure of firearms present be advised, or once again, knowing that I am in full compliance of the law just keep my mouth shut unless the officer inquires?


To answer your first question if I was in that situation I would not divulge that information, really no reason to as far as i'm concerned. I would be hesitant to open that can of worms, I would just deal with whatever the citation is and call it good. Just my opinion.


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## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

UintaMan said:


> ChaserOfAllBirds said:
> 
> 
> > A few more questions for you Uintaman, just because of your perspective:
> ...


Also make sure the case is not readily accessible for immediate use! You could do everything else right and mess up on that one thing which would cause a lot of problems if spoted.


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## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

ChaserOfAllBirds said:


> A few more questions for you Uintaman, just because of your perspective:
> 
> Say I get pulled over for an infraction such as speeding, a tail light that is out, or something of this nature, and I have guns in the car with me, but they are in their cases. Would it be best to disclose to the officer that they are there, or just mind my business and handle the situation without saying anything?
> 
> ...


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

I'd highly recommend checking out http://utahconcealedcarry.com/ There's an active community over there and lots of resources to get (and keep) you up-to-speed on the rather complicated and sometimes convoluted weapons laws.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

Ya, what apollosmith said!


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