# Big Bull on the San Juan



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Guess someone shot a 400" bull on the San Juan this year with Black Timber Outfitters...?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

That is the worst tease ever! We need pics.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bn11iX9hgiU/


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

That is what dreams are made of, right there! Thanks kwalk!


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

That is something else! Next level type bull!


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Really don’t need to sit 10 yards behind the bull or use special camera angles to make animals appear larger when they really are that big.

It’s a beaut!


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

I agree beautiful bull but man this guy is sitting halfway up the hill it's not necessary on a bull of that caliber. congrats to all involved.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Man, what a stud muffin of a bull! Thanks for posting the link kwalk!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Who cares where the guy sits? One way to look at that site of photo is that it emphasises the animal and makes the hunter an afterthought, which if pretty respectful of that's the case. It's a stunning bull and awesome photo either way.

A clean 6x6 that scores at +400" is a BEAST!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

:shock::shock::shock: Now that's a "Bute"


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Who cares where the guy sits? One way to look at that site of photo is that it emphasises the animal and makes the hunter an afterthought, which if pretty respectful of that's the case. It's a stunning bull and awesome photo either way.
> 
> A clean 6x6 that scores at +400" is a BEAST![/QUOTE
> to me it resembles a little bit of corporate hunting. but to each their own awesome bull again congrats to the hunter and all involved


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

What an absolute giant of a bull! Too bad those types of critters can only be hunted by so very few hunters. Oh well, it is what it is in Utah...


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

stillhunterman said:


> What an absolute giant of a bull! Too bad those types of critters can only be hunted by so very few hunters. Oh well, it is what it is in Utah...


...with some very deep pockets. Cool bull, loses some of its authenticity in my book since he probably paid tens of thousands of dollars to the outfitter to put him on it. Just my 2 cents.

And yes, of course part of the reason I say that is because I'm jealous!


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> That is the worst tease ever! We need pics.


I was hoping someone would bail me out since I saw a post with an Instagram picture of it.

I don't do Instagram (or know how to).


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Love it!! Keep showing more and more pics of 400" bulls from San Juan!!



(Boulder has sucked this year. No 400" bulls over there....)


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

moabxjeeper said:


> ...with some very deep pockets. Cool bull, loses some of its authenticity in my book since he probably paid tens of thousands of dollars to the outfitter to put him on it. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> And yes, of course part of the reason I say that is because I'm jealous!


+1. Guided hunts are stupid in most cases. DIY hunter 350" bull has lots more cred than a guided 400" bull in my book.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Some people don't have all the time to do the scouting on a unit to find that bull that they are looking for. That is what you pay a guide for. Also if you are traveling from out of state and spent 25 years or so accumulating points you want something for your time since you will likely never be able to do it again.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I love when people discount guides lol...


My buddy also guided a 400" this year (not on the San Juan though). I will see if I can share pics!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

A 4 hundo bull was killed on Manti this week as well.

But it was guided, so it doesn't count...apparently.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> A 4 hundo bull was killed on Manti this week as well.
> 
> But it was guided, so it doesn't count...apparently.


That's the bull I am about to share


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> Some people don't have all the time to do the scouting on a unit to find that bull that they are looking for. That is what you pay a guide for. Also if you are traveling from out of state and spent 25 years or so accumulating points you want something for your time since you will likely never be able to do it again.


Oh man, I could really go off on this one. Instead, though, I'll just post this old link:
https://utahwildlife.net/forum/22-everything-else/2881-commerce-conservation-democracy-hunting.html

Suffice it to say, legal or not, I'm no big fan of guided hunts. But, that is a beautiful bull.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Manti Bull. *HUNTER* is Matt Young, guided by Jaren McCourt of Goochs Guide Service.

He taped just over 390", but as you can see he is broke up pretty bad. If you you put him back together he would be right about 405".

















Hate on guides all you want - I don't think many are losing sleep over it


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> He taped just over 390", but as you can see he is broke up pretty bad. If you you put him back together he would be right about 405".


I love it. Even when they aren't 400", they are still 400".

pretty bull. not so pretty guide.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Alright, since I arrowed my first elk this year, I need someone to pay my guide fees to go after a bull next year! Wishful thinking to say the least haha


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> Manti Bull guided by Jaren McCourt of Goochs Guide Service.
> 
> He taped just over 390", but as you can see he is broke up pretty bad. If you you put him back together he would be right about 405".
> 
> ...


Haha. Love this post. Nobody knows or cares who the "hunter" is, it is just posted as the name of the guy that guided the hunter to the bull. In many cases, a guided "hunter" is no hunter at all. He is the shooter. The guide is the hunter in most cases. Awesome bull, however, a regular joe hunter taking a raghorn on an any bull unit general season is more impressive to me.


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## Greenhead_Slayer (Oct 16, 2007)

Hopefully that San Juan bulls twin brother is still running around up there! Headed down this weekend and my muzzleloader hunt starts Monday. Can't wait!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

toasty said:


> Haha. Love this post. Nobody knows or cares who the "hunter" is, it is just posted as the name of the guy that guided the hunter to the bull. In many cases, a guided "hunter" is no hunter at all. He is the shooter. The guide is more of a hunter in most cases. Awesome bull, however, a regular joe hunter taking a raghorn on an any bull unit general season is more impressive to me.


That's great that a raghorn is impressive to you, it impresses me as well.

I hunt my a$$ off and wouldn't feel a bit of shame if I have a guide. My dad and I hunted the Henry's unguided. People still want to know if it was 200" (even some people who "dislike" guides) - when we are two average Joe's who have never held any LE tag.

The hunter is Matt Young - he worked for this bull too. Unfortunately, his full time job isn't to be in the mountains for months on end looking for animals (as most of us can't). He had the means to get help to take a great bull, means that he earned, and he decided to utilize those.I am glad he was able to take a once in a lifetime animal, on what is quickly becoming a once in a lifetime oppty in Utah.

You don't have to praise a guided hunter, but you also don't need to discredit them.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Greenhead_Slayer said:


> Hopefully that San Juan bulls twin brother is still running around up there! Headed down this weekend and my muzzleloader hunt starts Monday. Can't wait!


Good luck! That will be awesome!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Good luck! Hopefully you are a wapiti slayer next week, and not just a greenhead slayer. 

I hope you kill a monster! If you do, please post it so some of these buzzkills can just enjoy seeing a cool elk and not have to worry about their feel bads about guides.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

For you that say that the guide is really the hunter have never been on a guided hunt. 

A guided hunt is just what you the hunter puts into it. If you want to sit on your rear while the guide finds the animal, drags your rear within range and then lets you shoot it you can. But don't expect a bull of this caliber. 

I have been on a couple of guided hunts and the guide doing all the work is far from what happened, at least for me. Like all things you get what you put into it and guides really don't care for the hunter that wants him to do all the work. Granted you are paying a lot for him to do his job but if you are a hunter you are doing almost as much as he is as far as finding the animals you are after. 

A lot of people got a bad taste in their mouths after the Spider Bull escapade where all the hunter did was to show up and pull the trigger, but not all guided hunts are like that.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

So, what service are you paying for then? IF the hunter is doing so much of the work, why pay the guide?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

PBH said:


> (Boulder has sucked this year. No 400" bulls over there....)


Thanks for the heads up! No sense spending my vacation time and money there next week :grin:

Very nice bulls, guided or not.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

As I mentioned before, you are mostly paying for the guides knowledge of the area and the animals in that area. 

But unless you have a hunt like what happened on the spider bull then you can do almost as much as the guide is doing as far as looking and spotting animals on your hunt. On my grizzly hunt in British Colombia I was the one who spotted the only grizzly that we saw before my guide did. The then pulled the spotting scope out to judge the bear while I pulled out my range finder to see just what the range to the bear was. It was then that I decided not to take the shot because of the range and late hour in the day. 

As for what my guide provided, he knew the area, he knew where to watch from, he knew the habits of the animals in the area. All of what I didn't know and didn't have the time to drive 1100 miles one way a few times to get to know. Even if I was required to have a guide by the government.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Critter said:


> For you that say that the guide is really the hunter have never been on a guided hunt.
> 
> A guided hunt is just what you the hunter puts into it. If you want to sit on your rear while the guide finds the animal, drags your rear within range and then lets you shoot it you can. But don't expect a bull of this caliber.
> 
> ...


I agree that not all guided hunts are show up and pull the trigger, however, I believe that most guided hunts are just that. What I find distasteful is a guided hunter that posts up pics of big bucks and bulls that had never seen the animal before putting their crosshairs on it and take credit for their "trophy".

My neighbor had a Wasatch LE bull tag this year and just got back and took a nice 6x7 that scores somewhere around 340". He was up every morning running to get in shape for his hunt for the last 4 months. He scouted every weekend and some weekdays since June and had seen and patterned 3 bulls that he wanted to take. He had a couple family members show up to help him the day before his hunt and they helped him pack out his bull miles into the backcountry. I am sure that Mr Young worked for the bull. When you consider the "magnitude of the effort expended in pursuit" of the two bulls. Which one is the bigger trophy? Mr Young's has bigger horns, but my neighbors bull is by far the bigger trophy.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Don't get me wrong, the feeling that you get by doing all the work is something that a lot of hunters will never feel. The bull in my story from 17 years ago was like that, my coues deer in my avatar was close but I got to know the area back in 2016 which help a lot in 2017 when I shot him

But there are a lot of hunters that can not just show up and hunt a area and be successful. On my grizzly hunt in the spring of 2012 I was hiking up to 12 miles a day once the snow was gone on my "get in shape route". That along with my shooting practice and other things made the hunt a lot easier on me. And if a person that hires a outfitter figures that they can sit at home and drink beer, pop, and eat pizza and be ready for a hunt out west here have a lot to learn. I see it every year with hunters that go on their own here in Colorado. There is usually a rescue every week during the hunting seasons here to get them out of the back country and off of the mountain. And this is on DIY hunts. 

But hunting on your own out of state a outfitter makes a lot of sense for a lot of people that prepare just as hard as anyone out there.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> But there are a lot of hunters that can not just show up and hunt a area and be successful. .


Sorry, but that is plain BS. A successful hunt could include a lot more than just putting a tag on an animal. What you are saying is that these hunters are paying a guide to help them kill an animal and tag out.

Sadly, though, this is exactly what bugs me about guide services in a lot of cases...hunting is more about the killing than the overall experience and hunt. Personally, I just believe that too many hunters are looking for the easy fix, a fix that money can buy.

It is also part of a country-wide epidemic that could potentially weed out the little guy who has neither the desire nor the means to pay for such services...


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

middlefork said:


> Thanks for the heads up! No sense spending my vacation time and money there next week :grin:


I wouldn't recommend spending time, or points, for next year either. That unit is going downhill fast....

....on the other hand, San Juan and Manti are certainly enjoying an up-swing in  animal quality. That's where people should be heading. Beaver, Pahvant, Book Cliffs, Southwest Desert and even Panguitch Lake are good options too.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Well, some don't judge the success of a hunt by the experience. Especially if they have waited 20+ years to draw that coveted tag and are a non resident. 

I have gone home more times that I want to think of with tag soup, my choice. But I enjoyed the hunt just as much as I would of if I had taken a animal, but a lot of hunters don't think that way. 

I also don't think that it will weed out the little guy, that is the process of the point creep for tags. The rich will always be able to hunt, it doesn't matter if they are on a DIY hunt or a outfitted one, they will hunt. 

But in the long run I see a need for outfitters, evidently you don't. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Knowledge of the area, scouting, tactics for the stalk(there is a big difference between someone who harvests an animal a week from August through the end of the year), help to pack out an animal (especially 800-1000lb elk), heck even an extra set of eyes. Let's not forget the Manti is on fire and that certainly can change hunters plans that may have scouted all year. 

If I ever draw a mountain goat tag I would like help. Maybe not for the harvest, but you know how many OIAL animals, like a goat, that I have caped? 0. 

It's funny when you say "posts up pics of big bucks and bulls that had never seen the animal before putting their crosshairs on it". Am I the only person who shoots animals when out hunting by myself that I just stumble on? Even when I have scouted the area or hunt it every year? No one gets curious and ventures to the area they didn't scout when things aren't working out? 

Guided hunts go unsuccessful all the time. That 400" (390" so pbh is happy) bull didn't get that big by being easy to harvest, with or without a guide. You know how many guided hunts happen every year there? Yet here he is, and a number of 370+ bulls the guide has eyes on.


My hunt this year I am required to have a guide and I also don't have access to the area to scout on my own. So if I harvest my once in a lifetime animal, it won't count? Even if we hike 15+ miles a day? Weird...


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Shooting a 350" bull on the San Juan/Elk Ridge unit is "easy". I have had multiple opportunites while chasing cows and spikes with archery tackle as I shoot one of his cows.

A word about guided hunts - nothing wrong with it. I, deciding to sit out this year to get ready for my kids' hunts, have put in several hundred miles looking for antelope and elk spots. So, in order to find a certain caliber of an animal, you have to have the time to put into it. Most of us don't, not that we wouldn't want to. I've done a few guided hunts. One was whitetail in NE, another was caribou in Quebec. Others were forced guided on the Jic Apache res, but that is a different discussion for another day...

Where most of the heartburn really comes from for guided hunts are when state auctioned tags, aka governors tags, score on the biggest of the big animals and then the hunter proclaims "look at me, look at me" - never mind the thousands spent on finders fees for that animal most everyone else is hoping they can draw a tag for that one chance in a lifetime (most times) to chase. Nothing "wrong" with it, but certainly not illegal either.

Disclaimer: the words typed in this post are not necessarily the opinions of the poster 8)


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> Sorry, but that is plain BS. A successful hunt could include a lot more than just putting a tag on an animal. What you are saying is that these hunters are paying a guide to help them kill an animal and tag out.
> 
> Sadly, though, this is exactly what bugs me about guide services in a lot of cases...hunting is more about the killing than the overall experience and hunt. Personally, I just believe that too many hunters are looking for the easy fix, a fix that money can buy.
> 
> It is also part of a country-wide epidemic that could potentially weed out the little guy who has neither the desire nor the means to pay for such services...


When Utah only gives you a tag for these areas once in your life, there typically is a lot of pressure. So yes, "Limited" units are often about the harvest.

Those buffalo hunters that got a second tag should have shut up and just enjoyed the experience!


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## Cheater (Feb 8, 2012)

Good luck greenhead slayer, keep us posted on how you do. Are you going guided or diy?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

High Desert Elk said:


> Shooting a 350" bull on the San Juan/Elk Ridge unit is "easy".


Wonder why the success rates are so low then?

I also love the inflation. I put money that more harvested bulls on those units are under 350 then over. Way more.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

toasty said:


> When you consider the "magnitude of the effort expended in pursuit" of the two bulls. Which one is the bigger trophy? Mr Young's has bigger horns, but my neighbors bull is by far the bigger trophy.


I don't know that. Who is to say this guy didn't get up and run/hike every morning for the last 5 months instead of just 4? Who knows? Maybe he even woke up every morning to run for the last SIX months! Probably not, since he hired a guide. And no guided hunter could possibly work as hard as your buddy on the Wasatch did.

Of course I'm being facetious, and overly so. That was purposeful. We spend a lot of time making snap judgments about people, and that has really become one of my pet peeves. If you don't know this guy, know his situation, know the details of what happened, you really probably should not make assertions one way or the other. Unless you know him, have talked to him, observed what he did and does, you simply do not know. Just my opinion, and it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

It think we'd be a lot better off in society if we'd all get back to just giving people the benefit of the doubt, instead of pulling out the pitch forks immediately on every issue.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

RandomElk16 said:


> Wonder why the success rates are so low then?
> 
> I also love the inflation. I put money that more harvested bulls on those units are under 350 then over. Way more.


Low success because: 1) 400" bulls posted on Instagram give rise to unrealistic goals, relatively speaking, and 2) that unit can be a butt kicker with narly/rocky canyons and very steep ridges and at 9,500'.

As for inflation, a 350 bull is really between 330 and 360. Yeah, there are some bug'uns on that mountain. Guess I should've said 343" bull instead of 350...

I know I'd get as much satisfaction burning my points for a 320" Manti bull as I would on 340" Blanding, er I mean, San Juan bull.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Honestly, I could care less about the hunter and how he/she got the animal (i.e. auction tag, expo tag, limited entry drawing) the fact that an animal survived for ‘x’ years and had the genetics to reach the caliber that the previously posted bulls have reached is simply awesome! Thanks to those that posted links to those amazing bulls!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> When Utah only gives you a tag for these areas once in your life, there typically is a lot of pressure. So yes, "Limited" units are often about the harvest.


This is a symptom of the epidemic I was talking about. A coworker of mine has a pauns muzzy deer tag...he has spoken a lot about the pressure he feels for this hunt. I keep telling him to go have a good time and don't worry about the pressure; enjoy seeing a lot of bucks and a lot of mature bucks. The truth is that we can make these hunts once in a lifetime hunts...or, we can make them once in a lifetime failures. Neither should be dependent on sticking a tag on an animal.

For the most part, I don't like guided hunts and I think Teddy Roosevelt seems almost prophetic when he warns: "The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide or for the feathers or for the meat or to sell antlers and other trophies;...and the rich who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions--these are the men who are the real enemies of game." Why? I think evidence is all around us...look at the high-fence game farms, the CWMUs that sell tags for thousands of dollars, the illegal poaching and selling of trophy animals, and high-priced conservation tags. What do all these things have in common? They all give hunting rights to the rich and take away hunting rights from the poor...where are we headed? I believe these pics of guides and big bucks and big bulls, among other things, inflate expectations. Additionally, I believe guides and outfitters are economically driven to push for restrictive regulations that help reduce tags and drive the inches game upward and helping hunters believe they must hire to have success.

Sure, not all guided hunts are the same. Sure, some "hunters" work harder than others on these "guided" trips. But, in the end, all of them are paying someone else to do some of the work for them. I see this as a problem...


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

wyoming2utah said:


> This is a symptom of the epidemic I was talking about. A coworker of mine has a pauns muzzy deer tag...he has spoken a lot about the pressure he feels for this hunt. I keep telling him to go have a good time and don't worry about the pressure; enjoy seeing a lot of bucks and a lot of mature bucks. The truth is that we can make these hunts once in a lifetime hunts...or, we can make them once in a lifetime failures.
> 
> For the most part, I don't like guided hunts and I think Teddy Roosevelt seems almost prophetic when he warns: "The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide or for the feathers or for the meat or to sell antlers and other trophies;...and the rich who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions--these are the men who are the real enemies of game." Why? I think evidence is all around us...look at the high-fence game farms, the CWMUs that sell tags for thousands of dollars, the illegal poaching and selling of trophy animals, and high-priced conservation tags. What do all these things have in common? They all give hunting rights to the rich and take away hunting rights from the poor...where are we headed? I believe these pics of guides and big bucks and big bulls, among other things, inflate expectations. Additionally, I believe guides and outfitters are economically driven to push for restrictive regulations that help reduce tags and drive the inches game upward and helping hunters believe they must hire to have success.
> 
> Sure, not all guided hunts are the same. Sure, some "hunters" work harder than others on these "guided" trips. But, in the end, all of them are paying someone else to do some of the work for them. I see this as a problem...


You see the irony in using a Theodore Roosevelt quote to diminish hunting if one uses a guide, right?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I think there is a time and place for guides....African safaris and Alaska excursions might fall into that category. So, ironic or not, I'm buying what he was selling.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> If you don't know this guy, know his situation, know the details of what happened, you really probably should not make assertions one way or the other. Unless you know him, have talked to him, observed what he did and does, you simply do not know. Just my opinion, and it's worth exactly what you paid for it.
> 
> It think we'd be a lot better off in society if we'd all get back to just giving people the benefit of the doubt, instead of pulling out the pitch forks immediately on every issue.


You're right, I don't know him and don't know what he put into the hunt. I made assumptions based on it being a guided hunt and the information randomelk posted up. I was just trying contrast the difference between a guided and DIY hunting experience.

I could probably afford to pay a guide for some hunts here and there, however, there is no amount of money that is worth what I get out of hunts by doing it on my own and that will never change. Inches, guides, and auctioned tags are changing hunting and have had in my opinion and net negative affect on hunting in our state. I know it is not popular with many on the website, but I would be the first one to sign a petition that would ban all professional guiding on public lands. I get why guys hire guides, I understand the reasoning, but a guided hunt taints the hunt and is not longer fair chase in my book.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

wyoming2utah said:


> I think there is a time and place for guides....African safaris and Alaska excursions might fall into that category. So, ironic or not, I'm buying what he was selling.


Except TR used guides extensively throughout all of his hunting--except his hunting on his Badlands ranch. He used guides in the Northeast, midwest, rockies, southwest, south, and southeast. Plus Alaska, Canada, Central/South America and Africa.

I have been on a number of guided hunts, and plenty of DIY. I've had guided trips that we lucked into animals in hours, and others that we hunted to the last light of the last day of the season. And honestly, they felt no different than DIY trips that I have been on and lucked into animals in hours, or got to hunt every minute of every day of the season.

When I hear somebody talking things like "sure some guided hunts are still hunts, but the majority are just show up, bang, smile" I can only assume that person has little personal guided hunting experience, if any.

But you do you I guess.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Teddy Roosevelt also hunted in a much different time than what we have now. And,
I said, "Sure, not all guided hunts are the same. Sure, some "hunters" work harder than others on these "guided" trips. But, in the end, all of them are paying someone else to do some of the work for them." But, thanks for putting words in my mouth and changing what I said. Where did I diminish the use of guides? I said I don't like it...but "diminish?"

The question again, then, is if they are no different, why pay the fee for the service?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> I think there is a time and place for guides....African safaris and Alaska excursions might fall into that category. So, ironic or not, I'm buying what he was selling.


Why are those different? We can't make an exception - most safari animals are like varmits and there are a plethora of them. Easy to hunt. They are arguably the worst trophies of all per his quotes aren't they? Alaska is just Montana/Idaho only higher up the globe.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Why are those different?


Canada would be my exception -- and mostly only due to rules that require guides for non-canadian residents. The other exception would be equipment. Specifically, boats for fishing trips.

However, and I'm speaking purely from experience here, those float trips that we've done in both Alaska and Canada that were 100% DIY using our own equipment are much more rewarding than any guided trip I've ever been on.

As for the bears, and protection: next time I'm taking Vanilla with us!!



RandomElk16 said:


> Alaska is just Montana/Idaho only higher up the globe.


I don't ever recall coming across sagebrush in Alaska.
Alaska does provide some additional challenges. Roads, for one thing. Getting there for another. I've driven from Cedar City, UT to Homer, AK, and it isn't a drive I would recommend for a weekend caribou hunt. I could see myself utilizing a guide while hunting Alaska -- mainly because I don't own a plane, and don't know how to fly a rental. I'd probably want to use his tent too.

I would never use a guide to hunt here in the West. I have no plans to ever hunt in the East. And, if I were even to pull out my wallet and thrown down a bunch of $$ towards expenses for a trip here in the West, it would be to fish. I hunt Utah. That's pretty much it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

toasty said:


> . . . but a guided hunt taints the hunt and is not longer fair chase in my book.


I have never hired a guide for a hunt. I don't anticipate doing it. I understand and agree with some of the arguments to limit their activities on public lands. But to say if you hire a guide it is no longer fair chase? That is a very extreme position, in my opinion.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

wyoming2utah said:


> Teddy Roosevelt also hunted in a much different time than what we have now. And,
> I said, "Sure, not all guided hunts are the same. Sure, some "hunters" work harder than others on these "guided" trips. But, in the end, all of them are paying someone else to do some of the work for them." But, thanks for putting words in my mouth and changing what I said. Where did I diminish the use of guides? I said I don't like it...but "diminish?"
> 
> The question again, then, is if they are no different, why pay the fee for the service?


When you used "hunters" in quotes, how is that anything but diminishing their experience?

And to get into semantics, I never said YOU said X,Y, or Z, I merely said "somebody talking things like..." It isn't placing words in your mouth, but rather is a generalization that happens to loosely fit the words and implications you and others are using in this particular instance. So thanks for putting words in my mouth and changing what I said.

Man, it is the WRONG time of year for us to be this catty! It is hunting season y'all. Go out and release some this pent up aggression on a milk-lipped, spotted calf!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Some of these responses have me thinking: 

Last year my best friend drew a LE late elk tag. He was living out of the state at the time so he had limited ability to come and scout. He and I went out together scouting, but I went out multiple times without him to look things over. 

The week before the hunt his brother did a bunch of scouting for him, and based upon some intel received from a good friend, checked out a canyon none of us had previously been. Turns out there were lots of elk there when he went to scout it, and that is where we went opening day, and the next day again when he killed his bull. 

Was his hunt no longer fair chase since he hardly did any of the scouting himself, but others did it for him? Or is what happened okay because neither his brother nor I were "guides?" Since we are family and close friends, does that mitigate the evilness of our activities last year? I just want to better understand where the line is at on these things for people with these hard core positions. Help me understand better, please.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> Some of these responses have me thinking:
> 
> Last year my best friend drew a LE late elk tag. He was living out of the state at the time so he had limited ability to come and scout. He and I went out together scouting, but I went out multiple times without him to look things over.
> 
> ...


I have nothing against and do not diminish your friend's hunt. I think you and his brother were very generous with your time. The big difference in your friend's experience vs hiring a guiding is $$$. Replace you and your friend's brother with him dishing out $5k to three 20 year old kids to find and watch a bull for 2 weeks before he got there. Is it the same?

_*"FAIR CHASE*_, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals."

When a wad of cash pays people to find, watch, and aid in the harvest of an animal, that in my mind, is now an improper advantage over the animal. With animals on public land there is no limit to what someone can buy to increase his advantage over an animal. Already brought up was the $250k or something like that guiding fee for the spider bull. This is my interpretation of fair chase and take it as such. Is it really that extreme?

I know there are a lot of grey areas and scenarios where an outfitters is required to even begin a hunt and get you to a certain wild location. For example, I have nothing against paid drop off hunts in Alaska and Canada or an outfitter to ferry someone up or down a river.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla -- your example is exactly why I would never hire a guide! Why hire a guide when I have family and friends that want to enjoy the hunting experience as much as I do? but they aren't going to charge me to spend time with me.

Your example is why I have a hard time understanding the need for a guide.
Suppose I draw a unit in Utah that I've never stepped foot in. The first thing I'll do is post a thread on this web site, and i'll probably have a few of you fine gentlemen offer to help me. I might have to cook a couple hotdogs as payment.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Some of these responses have me thinking:
> 
> Last year my best friend drew a LE late elk tag...
> 
> Was his hunt no longer fair chase...


The only thing unfair about it is that he drew an LE tag!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> The only thing unfair about it is that he drew an LE tag!


He was a point or two under the max point pool. So I agree!


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## Cheater (Feb 8, 2012)

There are so many variables to this debate that I don’t think there is one blanket answer. I personally get great satisfaction in DIY hunts. They’re just more rewarding and fun.

With that said, the vibe I’m getting from this thread is that all hunters are either DIY or Guided 100% of the time. This may be the case for some, but I think a lot of hunters go 95%+ DIY with a few specific cases where a guide makes sense to them. I hardly blame a guy who is an average hunter like most of us that finally draws a coveted tag and wants maximize his trophy potential for one hunt (or) the hunter who has always dreamed of doing a remote Dall sheep or backcountry pack string elk hunt but also wants to be realistic about safety and logistics.

I think the rich guys that go 100% guided and buy tag after tag are little annoying, but frankly I’d probably prefer that my doctor or attorney aren’t scouting 60 days a year, but rather practicing their craft so that when I need them most they’re ready for action.

If you like DIY like I do, great, continue to get after it, but judging a guided hunt off of a bunch of unknown circumstances seems misguided and likely rooted in jealousy.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Amen ^^^^

I am always jealous of the trophies people kill. One day it will be my turn and who knows at this point what I will do. Things could be totally different in my life when it happens.


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## Greenhead_Slayer (Oct 16, 2007)

Cheater said:


> Good luck greenhead slayer, keep us posted on how you do. Are you going guided or diy?


Get ready to bring out the pitchforks and torches! I've sold my soul to the devil, desecrated the sacredness of big game hunting, and spent my money on filthy lucre and hired BTO and am going with them. Why?

I drew the tag on a fluke with 14 or 15 points and was not prepared for this specific hunt at all. I always put in for the boulder and know that unit, for the first time in my life this year I decided to put in for San Juan. With a 2% chance of drawing the tag it hadn't even crossed my mind that I'd actually draw. I live 8 hours away from the mountain, have a demanding career, 2nd job teaching at a university, wife, 3 kids including a 5 month old, no way was I going to be able to make time to go down and scout and get to know that unit like the tag deserves. It's almost 900 miles round trip from my house to the unit and back. No way was I going to show up in the middle of the rifle hunt to do my scouting a few days before the muzzleloader hunt and be content with that plan.

I've shot a 340 bull, a couple satellites, and a spike. I've never had a realistic chance of shooting a monster bull and I want the best opportunity possible to do that with this tag. Going on my own with not knowing the unit well, or being able to scout it properly, did not give me a very realistic opportunity for that happen. Hopefully with BTO those chances are better.

The price for a guide is not always as absurd as everyone makes it out to be. You can get creative and do your own meals and lodging and it becomes a very affordable hunt. Everything in life is negotiable, including guide fees.

Even though it'll be guided I've been hiking multiple nights a week with my pack full of gear, developed a load for my muzzleloader, spoke to as many previous tag holders as I could find, sat down and compared maps over lunch with people that recently hunted the same hunt, bettered my field scoring skills, and a whole grundle of other things. Just because I have a guide doesn't mean I've rolled over and played dead.

People forget it is still a hunt, still a wild animal, still at the mercy of mother nature, and is by no means a guarantee for a filled tag. The full moon starts Monday. With as hot as it is will those bulls just rut all night long and not do a thing in the day? Thunderstorms are forecasted to roll through the area tomorrow night, what if the unit goes up in flames? Winds are forecasted next week up to 15 MPH, how will my muzzleloader perform at 200 yards in a 15 MPH crosswind? The LE Deer hunt starts on Wednesday, what if the elk are in that area and all the deer hunters push them off? There are so many factors that are still out of your control, even when going with a guide, it doesn't guarantee your success. It certainly increases it, hence why I made the choice I did, but there are still a whole plethora of things totally out of that guides control.

Rumors are BTO killed another monster on the unit today.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

People forget that it is still a hunt, but mostly forget that all this is meant to be fun. So many people finding reasons to be upset about things, you'd think they hate this hunting stuff?

Good luck again, Slayer! Go smoke a giant.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Greenhead_Slayer said:


> Get ready to bring out the pitchforks and torches! I've sold my soul to the devil, desecrated the sacredness of big game hunting, and spent my money on filthy lucre and hired BTO and am going with them. Why?
> 
> Rumors are BTO killed another monster on the unit today.


I didn't mention this in the beginning but might as well - I also know some of the BTO guys, one of which, Sloan, is involved with me in Marco.

They are great guys - and you should have an awesome hunt! Enjoy yourself 

Edit: Here he is with that big ol 400"


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

That bull is so freaking big! Truly what dreams are made of, right there.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Those giant clean 6s are flat out impressive. When you put a 400" clean 6x6 next to just about any nontypical bull under 430" it makes the "larger" bull look like a runt. Those swords go on for days!


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> Those giant clean 6s are flat out impressive. When you put a 400" clean 6x6 next to just about any nontypical bull under 430" it makes the "larger" bull look like a runt. Those swords go on for days!


What else I think is impressive is to see a clean 5x5 that goes 310 or 320. Those have been shot on the Juan (Elk Ridge actually) as well.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

High Desert Elk said:


> What else I think is impressive is to see a clean 5x5 that goes 310 or 320. Those have been shot on the Juan (Elk Ridge actually) as well.


Agreed. There was a MASSIVE 5x5 on my LE hunt the morning I learned my scope had broken, and he tempted me sorely. He was easily a 350" 5x5, but running with a 370-380" 6x6 made for tough choices--that ultimately didn't matter! Ahh...good times


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Greenhead_Slayer said:


> ...Winds are forecasted next week up to 15 MPH, how will my muzzleloader perform at 200 yards in a 15 MPH crosswind?


You didn't give load specifics, but using an average load roughly: 16" of drift at 200 yards in a 15mph wind. Problem with wind though... is it the same strength 200 yards away? More? Less? In the same direction? Wind is very unpredictable.

-DallanC


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## Greenhead_Slayer (Oct 16, 2007)

DallanC said:


> is it the same strength 200 yards away? More? Less? In the same direction? Wind is very unpredictable.
> 
> -DallanC


Exactly. The point I was trying to drive home is that even with an outfitter, plenty of things are still very unpredictable. It's not as black and white as hire a guide and you're guaranteed an animal.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

toasty said:


> I agree that not all guided hunts are show up and pull the trigger, however, I believe that most guided hunts are just that. What I find distasteful is a guided hunter that posts up pics of big bucks and bulls that had never seen the animal before putting their crosshairs on it and take credit for their "trophy".
> 
> My neighbor had a Wasatch LE bull tag this year and just got back and took a nice 6x7 that scores somewhere around 340". He was up every morning running to get in shape for his hunt for the last 4 months. He scouted every weekend and some weekdays since June and had seen and patterned 3 bulls that he wanted to take. He had a couple family members show up to help him the day before his hunt and they helped him pack out his bull miles into the backcountry. I am sure that Mr Young worked for the bull. When you consider the "magnitude of the effort expended in pursuit" of the two bulls. Which one is the bigger trophy? Mr Young's has bigger horns, but my neighbors bull is by far the bigger trophy.


First comment in red... you can find it as distasteful as you want but consider this: If someone pays a guide it's none of our business, if someone pays 10 guides to hunker down an animal and just shoot it's none of our business. For all we know the guy we criticize has a long history of hunting, putting boots on the ground, putting glass to his eye and working his tail off as a hunter. Suddenly he finds himself with a tag of a lifetime and the means to pay a guide. His trophy is his and he has the kindness to share it his picture and story with the world. I guarantee you he more than likely did not share it to brag about his bull being bigger than yours. He did it because we hunters appreciate the chase, the grandeur of the animal and the experience that come with it all. He's not seeking our approval because he doesn't need it. The smile on his face and the memory of in his brain and the mount on the wall is all he needs. We have a right to voice our opinions but in the end their just a bunch of hot air because it doesn't matter.

On the second part in red... I'm glad you think that's a bigger trophy; it's your opinion and you have every right to it. We just shouldn't put one down to elevate the other because of his methods. Old man's wise words... *putting out someone else's candle doesn't make yours brighter*.

I am sure both were fair chase I am sure and that's all that matters because each one was based on each person's circumstances and resources.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

toasty said:


> ...... but a guided hunt taints the hunt and is not longer fair chase in my book.


Fair chase is by definition "the harvesting of game that is wild and free ranging"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_chase

If you agree with it or not is irrelevant. If it was harvested with a guide or not is irrelevant. If the animal was wild and free ranging it's fair chase.

Your not agreeing with a guided hunt being fair chase is akin to saying it not democracy and your vote doesn't count because you were bused to the polls.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

PBH said:


> Vanilla -- your example is exactly why I would never hire a guide! Why hire a guide when I have family and friends that want to enjoy the hunting experience as much as I do? but they aren't going to charge me to spend time with me.
> 
> Your example is why I have a hard time understanding the need for a guide.
> Suppose I draw a unit in Utah that I've never stepped foot in. The first thing I'll do is post a thread on this web site, and i'll probably have a few of you fine gentlemen offer to help me. I might have to cook a couple hotdogs as payment.


What about those of use that don't have anyone? My wife, my daughters and I are the only ones here in Utah.  My daughters don't hunt and my wife is just as busy as I am. My friends are not avid hunters and though they would help me pack out my harvest they are not as excited about the pre-hunt as most of us are here. If I drew an LE/OIAL tag why would I not hire a guide?


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Just for the record, when I draw the SJ expo tag next year, I’m hiring BTO!


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Greenhead_Slayer said:


> Exactly. The point I was trying to drive home is that even with an outfitter, plenty of things are still very unpredictable. It's not as black and white as hire a guide and you're guaranteed an animal.


Of course, you can always turn your tag back in to wait for calmer weather in the future if you're concerned about strong crosswinds...

Sorry, I digress. That's the conversation on that "other" forum over there. ;-):grin:


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

High Desert Elk said:


> Of course, you can always turn your tag back in to wait for calmer weather in the future if you're concerned about strong crosswinds...
> 
> Sorry, I digress. That's the conversation on that "other" forum over there. ;-):grin:


This is a hot mess to put it lightly. The DWR must step up and change it. It really creates the entitlement element and then blows it out of space. I picture alot of folks in the future pushing 70 and not having the retirement fund to hire BTO, and waited 30-40 years for thier SJ tag, and being so excited when they finally drew. Yes! My chance for zorro has finally come. They scout all summer with their lifetime of knowledge and have everything figured out, then the wind shifts the week before the opener and they panic (who can blame them with that much pressure) and turn it in and hope the wind doesnt shift next year. They are at the the top of the bonus so whats to fear beside a heart attack?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

When I draw a SJ tag, I will be happy as can be to shoot a solid 320 bull. Hasn't happened yet and I've had two tags in NM within the last 4 years to do just that and it didn't work out.

Of course I don't have the discipline to hold out more than a day or two, so that's my fault I guess...:?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

When I draw the San Juan, there better be 380 bulls behind every tree or they better give me a second tag the next year!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Aaaah heck, who am I kidding? I'm never drawing that tag!

SFW will convince the WB that killing ten 400+ inch bulls each year in the state just isn't lucrative enough, and SFW would make a lot more money if the WB would just screw over the hunters that have been [im]patiently waiting their turn in the current system.

Maybe I'll still be able to draw a Wasatch tag in 9 years with 30 points when they're done messing up the system?

#totp


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Aaaah heck, who am I kidding? I'm never drawing that tag!
> 
> SFW will convince the WB that killing ten 400+ inch bulls each year in the state just isn't lucrative enough, and SFW would make a lot more money if the WB would just screw over the hunters that have been [im]patiently waiting their turn in the current system.
> 
> ...


You ought to put in for the Valles Caldera unit (6B) in NM next year. There are some really good bulls in there and you have the same chance each year no matter what. But don't stop putting in for UT either.

I used to live in the dream of one day getting a SJ tag, but I'm starting to give up on that. Think the Manti is going to be on my radar next year. All I need is a solid 300 bull, whether it is 320 or 360 makes no difference to me.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Interesting thread. I understand and can relate to both sides of the 'guide' argument, but my personal thoughts on the matter go a bit deeper, involving the philosophy behind it, and the implications it's had, does have, and will have on hunting in general, in the future: and it's not good in my humble opinion.

I'll reiterate my previous post saying what a beautiful, mature specimen that bull is, lamenting the fact that it's too bad more hunters can't chase others like him, because of the current philosophy Utah employs with it's wildlife management...


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> What about those of use that don't have anyone? My wife, my daughters and I are the only ones here in Utah. My daughters don't hunt and my wife is just as busy as I am. My friends are not avid hunters and though they would help me pack out my harvest they are not as excited about the pre-hunt as most of us are here. If I drew an LE/OIAL tag why would I not hire a guide?


MadHunter -- you have all of us! 

Seriously. If you ever need any help at all on the Boulder, Panguitch, Zion, Southwest Desert, Pine Valley, Beaver, Fish Lake, or Paunsagaunt -- I'm here to help. Free of charge.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

A number of years ago (I even posted the story on this site) I received a phone call from the DWR about being next in line to receive a Paunsagaunt archery tag. Though the call came in only 2 days before the hunt started, I gladly accepted though I had only been on small portions of the unit a couple of times (heck, the Pauns doesn't exactly pump out a lot of big fish). So, I had to decide if it was worth changing my plans and hunting a unit I knew virtually little about or decline the tag.

By some of your (whoever's) reasoning, I should have hired a guide to maximize my experience. Instead, I took the one day I had a chance and drove down to the unit to explore. The crazy thing is that the one scouting trip I made yielded a whopping total of zero deer and zero bucks before noon. And, by the time I had to leave that afternoon, I had only seen one mature buck. The truth is that my one scouting trip left a lot to be desired and I almost undoubtedly could have found better bucks and more bucks on the general unit I was planning on hunting. But, though my spirits had been dampened and I was worried about the hunt, I didn't run out and hire a guide. Instead, I started reaching out to anyone that might help. And, the night before the hunt started, I had a fellow hunter give me some advice that made the whole hunt great. That opening morning, I saw over 50 mature bucks in one little area...I stayed in that area the rest of the hunt and had a blast.

Like PBH alluded to, most out of state hunters and especially in-state hunters could get all the information they would need to have a successful hunt just by looking to others for help. They just have to ask.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I doubt that you could of found a guide with only a day or so to spare. 

I have also seen the responses that a lot of out of state hunters or first time posters get on this forum when asking for help in a unit. It isn't very favorable.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> By some of your (whoever's) reasoning, I should have hired a guide to maximize my experience.


I don't think SHOULD was ever said... but no one would say you aren't a real hunter or can't post a pic of you with a trophy because you did hire a guide. I get what you are saying though.

That's the point - guide/no guide it doesn't matter. Not sure why it does so much to some people. Different strokes for different folks.

"Divided we fall..."


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

The crazy thing is that I had guides contacting me. But, you are right...often we criticize first time posters who ask for help. But, more often than not, that help usually still comes. And, I have personally sent many PMs to people asking for help on their own hunts and tried to offer my help when I can. I think many others do the same and are willing to help. What people don't like is when that hunter appears lazy or unwilling to do any work for him or herself.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> What people don't like is when that hunter appears lazy or unwilling to do any work for him or herself.


I believe most agree with this. Denny buys animals, and does very little hunting. For the spider bull he hired how many mossback guides/spotters? Over 15 and for what duration? There is definitely a difference in some situations. Hiring an entire team to babysit an elk for over a month and flying in on a helicopter is different then having a guy with you who knows a thing or two about the area and the species.

What I 100% think about guiding though: You should have to be a Utah resident to be issued a Utah guide license, and each company can only hire X number of guides for one state(all residents). And charge a larger license fee for "premium areas".

If you are caught trying to loophole this, you lose your license for X number of years.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

PBH said:


> MadHunter -- you have all of us!
> 
> Seriously. If you ever need any help at all on the Boulder, Panguitch, Zion, Southwest Desert, Pine Valley, Beaver, Fish Lake, or Paunsagaunt -- I'm here to help. Free of charge.


Thanks you sir. It is much appreciated and the offer is reciprocated.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

RandomElk16 said:


> What I 100% think about guiding though: You should have to be a Utah resident to be issued a Utah guide license, and each company can only hire X number of guides for one state(all residents). And charge a larger license fee for "premium areas"


Does this now only cater to the "superstar" outfitters that cater to the "superstar" hunters, and what ever happened to a free market society and economic freedom and only UT residents can work in UT now...?

Betcha as a NR, I can guide a hunter to a 350 bull on the San Juan unit just as well as a flatbrimmer 22 yr old from Orem can...

Not attacking you, just commenting on the statement.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> ...what ever happened to a free market society and economic freedom and only UT residents can work in UT now...?


not necessarily trying to defend the opinion that only UT residents can guide in UT...

but other places certainly do make these types of restrictions. And, why not? Why not place some benefit in front of the "local" people?

consider: in British Columbia there are regulations on certain fisheries that prevent non-canadian residents from fishing on certain days of the week. Basically, it gives locals a "tourist free" day to fish. Personally, I think it's bull****. But, being a US citizen, I really have no say in the matter. But it does make me wonder if UT should reciprocate some of the same to our friendly visitors from the Great White North (or, heck why not, out of staters!), and restrict their activities here in UT to specific days of the week as well...

...wouldn't it be lovely to go hunting for a couple days without the threat of an out-of-stater screwing everything up? ;-)


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

High Desert Elk said:


> Does this now only cater to the "superstar" outfitters that cater to the "superstar" hunters, and what ever happened to a free market society and economic freedom and only UT residents can work in UT now...?
> 
> Betcha as a NR, I can guide a hunter to a 350 bull on the San Juan unit just as well as a flatbrimmer 22 yr old from Orem can...
> 
> Not attacking you, just commenting on the statement.


Really this idea stemmed from what I saw with the recent houndsman debates on upping tags. It seems a lot come from out of state.

Has nothing to do with superstars. It has everything to do with supporting the local economy, adding some regulation to it, and a few other things.

I am sure you could do that, I don't question your ability. I do think if you are profiting from Utah wildlife then you should be a resident your taxes, insurance, etc... should be held through the state. If anything, this hurts the superstars and promotes the small groups (which seems to fit with most peoples ethics/fair chase stuff)


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

PBH said:


> not necessarily trying to defend the opinion that only UT residents can guide in UT...
> 
> but other places certainly do make these types of restrictions. And, why not? Why not place some benefit in front of the "local" people?


The answer to the "why not only allow Utah residents to guide in Utah is the Commerce Clause.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

PBH said:


> ...wouldn't it be lovely to go hunting for a couple days without the threat of an out-of-stater screwing everything up? ;-)


They already do, 10% of tags go to NR's, and some hunts don't even offer one. The only "boneheads" I've been screwed up by are residents riding 4-wheelers where they shouldn't be...



RandomElk16 said:


> Has nothing to do with superstars. It has everything to do with supporting the local economy, adding some regulation to it, and a few other things.
> 
> I am sure you could do that, I don't question your ability. I do think if you are profiting from Utah wildlife then you should be a resident your taxes, insurance, etc... should be held through the state. If anything, this hurts the superstars and promotes the small groups (which seems to fit with most peoples ethics/fair chase stuff)


You really think that will deter Mossback? Seems he's in pretty tight with SFW and company...

I agree, if I am a guide working in UT for an outfitter and UT passes a law that I have to pay UT taxes and buy UT professional liability insurance, then I should have to pay those duties and fees. Also, if I have a business established in UT, then I would pay those taxes and insurance anyway. Pretty sure that law already exists.

The caveat, however, is that it could screw up the flow of interstate commerce for all other industries as well, something the U.S. Senate likely won't go for.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

High Desert Elk said:


> They already do, 10% of tags go to NR's, and some hunts don't even offer one. The only "boneheads" I've been screwed up by are residents riding 4-wheelers where they shouldn't be...
> 
> You really think that will deter Mossback? Seems he's in pretty tight with SFW and company...
> 
> ...


I was just spit-balling. A lot stemmed from listening to the houndsman convo's and them mention how many outfitters come from out of state.

I don't think it would stop Mossback - they would establish state based outfitting like A3 Trophy Hunts.

I do think, after being on premium hunts, there is potential to be licensed for different species and different units.

Doesn't affect me either way lol.

This was cool to read about guides and western states:

https://www.gohunt.com/read/life/how-are-hunting-guides-and-outfitters-governed#gs.s0XRqD0


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Not sure how it works in other states, but I know in some, outfitters can only outfit/guide in certain units.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

johnnycake said:


> The answer to the "why not only allow Utah residents to guide in Utah is the Commerce Clause.


Genuinely curious question about that(I know you have expertise in the law):

"Since its decision in Gibbons, the Supreme Court has held that Congress may regulate only those activities within a state that arise out of or are connected with a commercial transaction and that, viewed in the aggregate, substantially affect interstate commerce."

Does outfitting really fall under that?

Legally could the state add the caveat to their 100 days of outdoor training and say that you must demonstrate you spend at least X number of days on the unit?

The law really does fascinate me.


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