# Elk Points



## Flylow (Nov 4, 2011)

I currently have 15 elk points and am hoping for some advice. I am trying to decide if I should put in for an area where I have a chance of drawing now or putting in with my 14 yr old son as a group for an easier area to draw and trying to get him his first bull as well as one for myself? Any suggestions on which way I should go and where you would suggest would be great. I would prefer to hunt with my rifle, but muzzleloader is also an option. I live in Northern Utah, but do not mind traveling if needed. Thanks!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Have you looked into the Buck/Bull Youth opportunities? It wouldn't burn your points, but would be a good hunting opportunity for him.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Flylow,

Welcome to the forum!

If you apply with your son, the DNR will average out your points - 15/2= 7.5 - the crappy thing is that they do not round 7.5 up to 8. You each will enter the draw with 7 points. Knowing that, take a look at what tags you have a very good chance at drawing with 7 points based off last years data - nearly none on the muzzleloader, but a maybe couple on the late elk hunt. I would think long and hard about what I really wanted to do and the elk hunting experience I wanted to share with my son.

You could draw a good tag for yourself, learn the unit, and then pick up a spike tag for your son. After you tag out on your bull, then you could focus your time on getting your son a bull during the spike season.


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## Flylow (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks for the pointers. I think I will put him in for the Youth hunts and then put in for my hunt and have him come along as part of the Mentoring Program and let him do the shooting if possible. Could be the best of both worlds. 

Now, if you had 15 points, what Elk hunts would you be looking at? Thanks!


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## rockroller (Dec 7, 2008)

Having just finished my le elk tag last fall and helping 2 sons the last few years on theirs, I would just work on 1 tag ,1 elk at a time,you can both enjoy the hunt even though only 1 of you pulls the trigger. Sometimes it's hard to find 1 shooter bull let alone the pressure of finding 2. Plus you'll have another hunt to look forward to. Just my 2 cents


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Flylow said:


> Thanks for the pointers. I think I will put him in for the Youth hunts and then put in for my hunt and have him come along as part of the Mentoring Program and let him do the shooting if possible. Could be the best of both worlds.


I would recommend the Mentoring Program for sure. Two LE tags could be a lot of fun but it could also be a lot of pressure. Plus if you only get one tag you are going to be able to hunt a much better unit than if you split the points.


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

Just don't bank on him drawing out on the Youth Any Bull tag, I put in for 6 years and never drew, get him a spike tag, or find him a nice buck 8)

Good Luck!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The youth any bull hunt is one of the hardest hunts out there unless you know of a open area and know that area well.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Critter said:


> The youth any bull hunt is one of the hardest hunts out there unless you know of a open area and know that area well.


This is true. My son had the youth any bull tag last year and didn't harvest. We made some good memories, but that was the toughest hunt I've been on.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

15 points for a rifle puts you dead square in no mans land. Not enough to draw a premium unit and too many to burn on a lesser quality unit IMHO.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

berrysblaster said:


> 15 points for a rifle puts you dead square in no mans land. Not enough to draw a premium and too many to burn on a lesser quality unit IMHO.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try 18...


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Try 18...


I don't envy guys in your position haha I'm assuming you meant that you have 18 points

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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

I would just look at the draw odd, there are a few units you could raw an early rifle tag on with 15 Points. I am in a similar situation with 14 and am deciding what to do. If you really want rifle I would then decide if you want early or late. You can get a better unit with your points with a late tag or settle for a "lesser" unit and get an early tag. It's a tough decision but is really a win/win. If it were me I would pick a unit you are familiar with or pick one that you can put the time in to get to know this summer and spend a lot if time with your family down there. Good Luck!


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Welcome Flylow - maybe we should ask if you have any sort of size expectations for your elk hunt? No sense waiting for a premium unit if you're happy with a low 300s type bull. Once you know what you're after, then it becomes easier to choose from the available hunts. If you wanted to hunt sooner than later, there are some great muzzy hunts you can pull now. If you're stuck on rifle, as has been said, your options are limited for another 4-5 years.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

You are right, Vanilla. 18 points is the no mans land for le elk. Could be worse though. Could have less than 5 lol


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm excited to be dropping my 13 points this year! Should be a lock for my selected unit. Fingers crossed!


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

I would be looking into a premium tag on the manti if I had that many points. Hunt all 3 seasons and enjoy every minute of it. 15 points you are pretty close to being guaranteed the tag. I seen some very nice bulls down there as of late


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

hazmat said:


> I would be looking into a premium tag on the manti if I had that many points. Hunt all 3 seasons and enjoy every minute of it. 15 points you are pretty close to being guaranteed the tag. I seen some very nice bulls down there as of late


It looks like it will take 19 points to lock the Manti premium tag up this year.

BUT YES, could be the BEST central Utah LE elk tag this year!


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> You are right, Vanilla. 18 points is the no mans land for le elk. Could be worse though. Could have less than 5 lol


My thoughts exactly. I'm in the real no-man's land with my 1 point (I would gladly trade for your 18. :mrgreen: ). Oh well, we all get to wait our turn, and since I'm in it for the long haul, I'll eventually have some decent options.


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## Flylow (Nov 4, 2011)

I am not dead set on rifle, as I really enjoy hunting with my muzzleloader as well. My White is probably my favorite of all of the guns I own. 

As far as size goes, of course I want the biggest elk possible, but I am not one to say that I will only settle for a 370 bull. I have only killed one bull to date and it was slightly over 300. In all reality a good mature bull will make me very happy, especially if I can kill it with my son with me. I also dont want to waste putting in for all of these years and then just settle. 

I drew out on the Book Cliffs muzzleloader in 2014, but had to turn the tag in due to getting a new job right before the hunt.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

If I had my choice of all the units with your points, I would do the Book Cliffs Roadless muzzleloader. There is just something about hunting elk way back in on horses - maybe it is just the romance of the west.

The muzzleloader season for 2016 is September 26 - October 7, the general season any bull and spike season is October 8 - October 20. If you drew a muzzleloader tag, your son could pick up a spike tag and start hunting the day after your bull tag closes.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

I shouldn't say this on a public forum because I want people to bail early but I feel that it won't make much of a difference any hooo. You will Never get that tag of a premium area if you get cold feet and jump into the tag pool too early. Although sometimes lucky on the not so publicized units, the better units are worth the wait. Not because there are 400" bulls around every corner but a LOT better chance of killing a 330-350 bull because there are a lot more of them. People can surely kill a 350 bull on the less mentioned units but it will likely take a lot of work. A better unit will require a LOT of work as well but that is in hopes of a 370 bull. If that doesn't happen, then to fall back to a 330-350 bull is a pretty nice option. Just my 2 cents worth. You have a lot of points. Hang in there for what you really have been hoping for. It will send a positive message to your son as well that some things are worth waiting for.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

I just wanted to add one more comment so the thread was at "22" comments. Sorry it's a sickness.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Just some thoughts to consider-- 

Is 15 points "no man's land"? Really? Last year only 25% of Wasatch Rifle applicants or 15% of Manti Rifle applicants who had 14 points drew. So you are finally in a place where you MIGHT draw a permit for what some call a "marginal" unit. (I don't believe that "marginal" label for those units) That isn't no-man's land. 

Your son is 14-- if you want to wait for a "higher" tier unit you will be waiting to hunt with him when he is in his 20s or maybe his 30s.

Would it be fun to shoot 2 280" bulls for a total of 560" or one 330" bull? Or maybe one 200" 5x and a 280" 6x? There are possibilities out there for a ML hunt where you both draw (now or in the next 3 years) and can shoot bulls. It is always tough to have 2 LE tags during the same hunt, but it is doable. 

I don't think waiting a year or 3 to hunt together is a bad thing. Gives you time to do some research and see how it goes. In the meantime, apply for a hunt together and see if luck strikes.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

2:22 said:


> I just wanted to add one more comment so the thread was at "22" comments. Sorry it's a sickness.


But you should of waited a while until the time was 2:22 to add the comment.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

One thing I've been thinking about as I've read this thread is my experience. I'm 27, have 13 elk points (would be 14 but I lost my mind and did deer one year). In that time, I've watched my dad draw twice and my wife on her second try. I loved getting to go on those hunts. Was a jealous? Yeah, a bit. But this year with my move I've decided to just go for a different unit, and hire a guide. I'm really sure my bull will mean more to me now that I've waited half my life for it. Your son has lots of time to draw his own tag, and I'm sure he'll love just going with you. He'll never appreciate the tag as much unless he has to wait to accumulate his own points. You never know, he could pull the same tag as you with only 1 point (if he's anything like my wife....)


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> One thing I've been thinking about as I've read this thread is my experience. I'm 27, have 13 elk points (would be 14 but I lost my mind and did deer one year). In that time, I've watched my dad draw twice and my wife on her second try. I loved getting to go on those hunts. Was a jealous? Yeah, a bit. But this year with my move I've decided to just go for a different unit, and hire a guide. I'm really sure my bull will mean more to me now that I've waited half my life for it. Your son has lots of time to draw his own tag, and I'm sure he'll love just going with you. He'll never appreciate the tag as much unless he has to wait to accumulate his own points. You never know, he could pull the same tag as you with only 1 point (if he's anything like my wife....)


I completely agree with johnnycake on this one! I think the time it takes to draw a tag anymore, for the vast majority of applicants, is just part of the overall experience. I know that I will put a greater value on my LE elk tag when I get it since its a decade plus timeframe of researching, applying, hoping, etc. for that one tag. I think that is why the OIAL tags have such a high intrinsic value.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> I completely agree with johnnycake on this one! I think the time it takes to draw a tag anymore, for the vast majority of applicants, is just part of the overall experience. I know that I will put a greater value on my LE elk tag when I get it since its a decade plus timeframe of researching, applying, hoping, etc. for that one tag. I think that is why the OIAL tags have such a high intrinsic value.


you guys are crazy I would much rather draw on my 2nd or third year then waiting 20 plus years as long as it was the same unit I don't anybody would complain... keep that it is half the meaning stuff life is to short rather sooner then later


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Hazmat, while I'd love that too, I know 16 year old me (and I've been hunting obsessed since birth) wouldn't value a tag that my dad sacrificed his points for me as much as 27 year old me does having suffered a lot of rejection


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

So after all this back and forth, it comes down to this...

Hunt now with a muzzy, slight chance to hunt now with a rifle, or wait several more years to definitely hunt with a rifle (or split points with son).

My choice - hunt now and have son along for the experience. He'll appreciate his own hunt so much more after being with you on yours.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

2:22 said:


> I just wanted to add one more comment so the thread was at "22" comments. Sorry it's a sickness.


I suspect you had been quietly watching this thread with your wise commentry in your back pocket just waiting to jump in on post 22. There's 18.....19..20.....wait for it...............21! FIRE!


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Packout said:


> Just some thoughts to consider--
> 
> Is 15 points "no man's land"? Really? Last year only 25% of Wasatch Rifle applicants or 15% of Manti Rifle applicants who had 14 points drew. So you are finally in a place where you MIGHT draw a permit for what some call a "marginal" unit. (I don't believe that "marginal" label for those units) That isn't no-man's land.
> 
> ...


The question is whether or not the unit is worth your investment of time. Is the Wasatch worth spending 15 points on? I struggle to tell a guy in good conscience that it is. That's not to say that there are no big Bulls to be had, but with 15 years invested, I expect a certain quality of hunt in return.

Would I spend 15 points? Absolutely, but my experience with this unit is different than most people. Would I tell a regular Joe who has weekends to scout and little to no prior knowledge of the unit? Right now I'm really hesitant

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

berrysblaster said:


> The question is whether or not the unit is worth your investment of time. Is the Wasatch worth spending 15 points on? I struggle to tell a guy in good conscience that it is. That's not to say that there are no big Bulls to be had, but with 15 years invested, I expect a certain quality of hunt in return.
> 
> Would I spend 15 points? Absolutely, but my experience with this unit is different than most people. Would I tell a regular Joe who has weekends to scout and little to no prior knowledge of the unit? Right now I'm really hesitant
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The reason why I said "try 18" is because at 15, you're really not in no mans land. If you want to hunt now and with a rifle, 12-15 points is the sweet spot. No, you won't be hunting the San Juan, Pahvant, etc. After you leave the Wasatch/Manti tier, you are 7-10 years away from the next point tier units and 20-30 years (or more) away from getting into the bonus pools of the top tier units.

If I had it to do over again, I would have drawn a Wasatch muzzy tag 10+ years ago and been well on my way to a LE deer tag or back in the elk pool with 5+ points hoping to draw another muzzy or late hunt in the next 10 years. But alas, I'm in the proverbial "no mans land" at 18 points wondering if I bite the bullet and settle on a unit that I'm over points just to hunt now now or do I stick it out for another 20 years for the unit I've always dreamed of hunting? That...is no mans land.

My advice to the original poster is draw a unit that you can spend some time on over the summer learning the lay of the land and finding animals. Then go hunt it! If you want your son to hunt now them mentor the tag to him. At 14 years old he might not know or appreciate the level of that sacrifice from you, but one day he will. I would absolutely not put in as a group because you lose quality on the unit and also put him in the waiting period for his own tag.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> The reason why I said "try 18" is because at 15, you're really not in no mans land. If you want to hunt now and with a rifle, 12-15 points is the sweet spot. No, you won't be hunting the San Juan, Pahvant, etc. After you leave the Wasatch/Manti tier, you are 7-10 years away from the next point tier units and 20-30 years (or more) away from getting into the bonus pools of the top tier units.
> 
> If I had it to do over again, I would have drawn a Wasatch muzzy tag 10+ years ago and been well on my way to a LE deer tag or back in the elk pool with 5+ points hoping to draw another muzzy or late hunt in the next 10 years. But alas, I'm in the proverbial "no mans land" at 18 points wondering if I bite the bullet and settle on a unit that I'm over points just to hunt now now or do I stick it out for another 20 years for the unit I've always dreamed of hunting? That...is no mans land.
> 
> My advice to the original poster is draw a unit that you can spend some time on over the summer learning the lay of the land and finding animals. Then go hunt it! If you want your son to hunt now them mentor the tag to him. At 14 years old he might not know or appreciate the level of that sacrifice from you, but one day he will. I would absolutely not put in as a group because you lose quality on the unit and also put him in the waiting period for his own tag.


I agree with everything said here! I do not care to hunt a premium unit but if I had 18 points I would be torn on what to do. I drew my early rifle LE elk tag at 8 points in 2013 for a lesser unit. I also drew with my brother as a group and that was tough. It does take some quality of the hunt away with 2 LE Elk tags in camp (Its a bit of a burden). I have been building deer points on my waiting period hoping to get lucky and draw a random tag (again putting in for a lesser LE deer unit). In a couple years I will be back in the elk pool to apply for the same lesser unit again and in another 10 years hopefully have my second LE Elk tag. Then back to the deer pool again for 5 years. If my health holds I just may get to hunt LE Elk 3 times and LE Deer 2 times in my life.

My strategy is not for everyone but that's how I'm rolling with it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I would never want the burden of filling 2 LE tags in one camp. It can be hard enough to fill 1!


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Yup! It seemed like a great idea when the results came out and the scouting part. But once the hunt started its quickly became ""oh ****"....


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Some good posts and opinions on this thread that make a guy think from different viewpoints. 

This whole no-man's land is an interesting concept. It seems that unless a person has the points to draw the unit they want then they are in no man's land. If a guy wants to hunt mature bull elk with a ML then he can do so with 7 or more points. If a guy wants to hunt mature elk with a bow then he can do so with 6 or more points. And it seems if a guy wants to hunt mature elk with a rifle he can do so with 10 or more points. 

Then it all comes down to our perception "quality". Less people or larger animals or just being able to hunt. 15 points is surely not a no-man's land unless a guy wants to hunt an extreme quality unit. Even 18 is not a no-man's land as that puts a hunter right in the mix for units considered better than the "Wasatch"-- namely Book Cliffs roaded, Roadless, Pang Lake, Boulder ML, FL Premium. Seems like everyone has a different take on what they want out of a hunt, but there are so many options out there.

The worst part of the current situation is the Expectation that comes with waiting XX years to draw. Seems like waiting 15 years should get a hunter a 350 bull with little competition-- because that is what people got 7 years when they had 15 points. That just is not realistic. As the time it takes to draw keeps creeping upwards, our expectations continue to creep upwards too-- BUT the hunts/animals don't change with those expectations.

And it will only get worse. At some point in time (probably 10 years down the road) we will be saying "The Wasatch isn't worth 20 points" and "My 23 points is still 20+ years out from drawing a top level unit."

FlyLow- I would recommend putting in for a tag you can scout with your son and go shoot one solid bull with him by your side. Memories will be made.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Packout said:


> And it will only get worse. At some point in time (probably 10 years down the road) we will be saying "The Wasatch isn't worth 20 points" and "My 23 points is still 20+ years out from drawing a top level unit."


Packout, great post! I will say we don't have to wait 10 years for this to be the case. In 5 years, my 23 points will still be 20+ years away from a top level unit.

I have no issue sharing my mindset on where I am at. My goal going into the elk draw many years ago was to harvest a 350+ bull. It is why I waited as long as I have hoping to draw the top tier units. I understand, that although every LE unit produces 350+ bulls just about every year, they are tough to come by. I understand that even on the best units, many hunters take less than 350+ bulls. I don't feel entitled to anything. I know it is still hunting and I have to do my part, and also get a little lucky, to make that goal happen. I am hoping to hunt a unit that gives me the best chance of doing that if I do my part.

People may criticize me for having an entitled mindset, they are entitled (there is that word again) to their own opinions, even if they are totally wrong. People may criticize me for being a "trophy hunter." On my general deer tags, I usually kill the first buck I find. I have no issue hunting cow and doe tags for the meat and the fun of it. But for this tag, I have specific hopes. Time is testing me on how long I'm willing to wait for those hopes. But I still have them. This has likely become a once in a lifetime opportunity for me with how the elk odds have gone. So I want to maximize my one shot.

Again, if I could go back 15 years, I would probably do it differently. But I can't. So here I am...waiting along with hundreds of others with 18 or more points in the elk pool this year!


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

I think it would be borderline CRAZY to have two tags in one year with one being a young hunter who is trying to learn the ropes. I would draw mine, learn the area with the more experienced hunter and then determine if that is a good unit for when my son qualifies. He will gain much experience on your hunt without any pressure and you will have a more quality unit to hunt. It's admirable to share your points with him but not the best move in my opinion. Be sure to post pics of the father and son moments!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I put in for years with a friend for my LE elk tag and then we decided to split apart. I drew the second year that I put in by myself and after shooting my elk and it taking a day to get it out I was glad that we didn't have to worry about finding, shooting, and packing out another elk that year. My buddy drew the next year so instead of having one rushed year we enjoyed two different hunts in two years which made it a lot nicer. 

I would hate to have a LE tag with a younger hunter who also has a tag. Odds are that one of us would go home with tag soup.


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## Flylow (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks for all of the replies and help everyone. I think I have made up my mind. Now I just need a little luck! I am going to try and draw my tag and if I do, my son and I should have a great hunt!


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