# BDC reticle or custom turrets?



## 400BULL

I need to get a new scope for my Winchester 300 WSM and cannot decide if I want to get a scope with the BDC reticle or get one with custom turrets. For a 500 – 600 yard hunting rifle which would be the best options, a scope with the bullet drop compensator (BDC) or a scope with custom turrets? 

400bull


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## DallanC

BDC if you shoot a single load. Turrets if you shoot different loads. IMO

-DallanC


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## MadHunter

I would go with the turrets. Unless Like DallanC says you will only shoot one load. The BDC reticle is still calibrated at an "averag factory load" for your caliber and will never be dead on. The custom turret will be made exactly to your load or whatever factory ammo you use. The issue is that factory ammo might change, over time. If you develop a load for your gun and for different applications you can get a turret for each one and you know they are spot on. I just picket up a Vortex Viper PST and am working on developing my load. Keep in mind that scopes that take custom turrets will cost you a little more. Good luck


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## Cooky

Will one of you guys that shoot long distance, and know how to make BDC reticles or turrets do what they are supposed to, please write a simple explanation of how to use each? Or the one that you use? The factory manuals are terrible. I have tried both with more or less unsatisfactory results.
Thank you.


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## longbow

I use both. On some guns I use the "bdc" reticles. On most longrange guns I use a "dial-up" turret coupled with a balistic program. One Is easy and the other is more involved but way more precise...and I mean really precise. I will PM you when I get home from work tomarrow and give you what I have on it.


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## Donttreadonme

400BULL said:


> I need to get a new scope for my Winchester 300 WSM and cannot decide if I want to get a scope with the BDC reticle or get one with custom turrets. For a 500 - 600 yard hunting rifle which would be the best options, a scope with the bullet drop compensator (BDC) or a scope with custom turrets?
> 
> 400bull


Are you hand loading your bullets?

Will this be a factory BDC reticle or a custom?

If you are shooting factory ammo then the factory BDC reticles will be fine because you are not going to have a lot of consistency in your ammo. There will be no reason to have a custom BDC reticle made and installed for your gun. From my use with them, I have never had the BDC lines work out just right. For example in my 22-250, I had to have the cross hairs zero at 150 yds then it was on out to about 450 yds.

If you reload, then by all means pay the money and have either a custom BDC reticle or dials installed in your scope. For hunting, I would prefer the BDC reticle. It would be much nicer to just put the line on your target and squeeze the trigger, rather than have to turn dials.


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## MadHunter

Cooky said:


> Will one of you guys that shoot long distance, and know how to make BDC reticles or turrets do what they are supposed to


Hey Cooky.... In researching BDC ret. vs. Turret I came to the conclusion that I did not want to use the turret because of its inherent inaccuracy. The BDC reticles are made for the average factory load trajectory for your caliber. It will be off up or down. You kind of have to play around with your zero to get to the calibration point of the reticle. There is a catch to this as the reticle only works at the magnification it was calibrated for. About 95% of scopes (if not more) have a second focal plane reticle. SFP reticles stay the same size as you increase or decrease your magnification on your scope. That throws the calibration of the BDC reticle off. The reticles are calibrated to a specific magnification of your scope; typically the maximum. If you have hash marks on your scope that indicate MOA at 9X they are no longer MOA at 5X. There are several first focal plane reticle scopes out there but very few as they are expensive to produce. With FFP scopes as the magnification increases so does the size of the reticle. This keeps the relationship of the objective and the reticle true throughout the entire magnification range. Therefore an MOA at 5X is the same at 9X.

Custom turrets are made specifically for the load you are shooting. In order to make a turret for your load you need to collect some data for it. Muzzle velocity, bullet weight, bullet ballistic coefficient and if you want to get even more detailed you will need velocity out at various distances, elevation you will be hunting at, temperature air density, etc. Using all of this data the trajectory of your bullet is calculated incredibly accurately and a turret is etched for your scope. When you dial in a certain distance you hold dead on and the bullet will travel right to the target. You do have to compensate for wind and of course you should never rely on the scope 100% you need to hone your skills in learn to dope wind as well. Just because you have a dial in doesn't mean you can just go out and shoot 1000 yds. I have been shooting long distance with my brother (a former army sniper) for about 2 years and I still do not feel comfortable going over 600 yds. I have never shot at an animal at more than 400, but that's just me.

Regardless of the technology we use BDC or custom dial in turrets; your skill, comfort and confidence level as well as ethics should never be replaced by a piece of equipment.


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## 400BULL

MadHunter said:


> I just picket up a Vortex Viper PST and am working on developing my load. Keep in mind that scopes that take custom turrets will cost you a little more. Good luck


Madhunter,

How do you like the PST? The PST is one of the scopes that I have been eying and may just pull the trigger on. Having said that I just recently seen the Viper HS 4-16X50 LR and thought that it would be a good compromise between having both the BDC reticle and custom turrets. I'm worried with the reticle being so fine that it will be easily lost when in a hunting situation. I know that the PST reticle is not he same as the HS LR but I think that they are both very fine reticles. Have you noticed any difficulty finding the reticle?

400bull


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## MadHunter

I have looked through both scope but only shot the PST asI own one. The PST has an illuminated reticle so it is easy to see. It is however also a very crisp reticle when not lit up. All in all I love the scope. The optics are as good as any I have ever looked through. Yes! including the Swaro and I paid less than half for it.

The reticle on the HS is a second focal plain reticle so, in order for the hash marks to work you need to have it at the magnification the hash marks were calibrated at. The good side to the LR models is that you can also get a custom dial turret made for it. Looks like you get the best of both worlds with the HS. Mine is the PST 6-24x50 with an FFP reticle. I have it dialed in and I am getting sub MOA groups at 200yds. I now have to collect data for the turret but I do not have a chrono yet. I can't tell you how pleased I am with the Vortex products and I am sure you will not be dissapointed.


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## Frisco Pete

There was an article on the general subject recently by gun writer Ron Spoomer. Here is the gist of it:
_[For the entire article, see: Pros and Cons: Scope Dialing and Subreticles by Ron Spoomer, Rifle Magazine, pg.24 July 2011]_

*"*The popularity of long-range and sniper-type shooting has brought some new sighting options to scopes. The two main types are TURRET DIALING and MULTI-RETICLE systems. This section lists some of the pros and cons of each system in order for a prospective user to decide which system would work best for him.

*Turret dialing* is extremely popular because military snipers have been using it with excellent results. You can see all this on the various Sniper shows on the Military or History channel. The technique involves knowing how many "clicks" are needed to cover certain inches or MOA at specified ranges. You dial the "clicks" in your elevation turret to move the scope's erector tube in relation to the target image formed on its erector lenses. Many, if not most, shooters imagine they are moving the reticle, but this remains fixed in front of the erector tube (1st focal plane) or behind it (2nd focal plane). Either way, when the elevation dial is turned, the target changes position in relation to the reticle, effectively forcing the shooter to raise or lower the muzzle.

The *multi-reticle* system accomplishes the same thing by providing fixed aiming points (dots, short cross-bars, etc.) on the lower vertical wire. The farther down the reticle you choose an aiming point, the higher your rifle's muzzle will be pointing. Via computer trajectory programs reinforced by range testing, you determine which reticles correspond to which distances, memorize this and hold accordingly.

Here is an example of the multi-reticle system. This is the new Burris Ballistic Plex E1 design that in addition to the small crosshairs below the main intersection adds a multi-reticle system method of compensating for wind drift. The dots placed to the left and right of the reticle represent the effect of a 10 mph crosswind for most big game hunting cartridges. If the crosswind is more like 5 mph, simply hold into the wind half the distance to the dot. If the crosswind is more like 20 mph, simply hold into the wind twice the distance from the center post to the dot.









This next example, also from Burris, is their Ballistic 7.62 Reticle
The Ballistic 7.62 reticle for the 1.5X-6X XTR scope was developed for competitive shooters, law enforcement, and military applications. The center dots and lower leg of the reticle provides trajectory compensation for the 7.62 150 grain FMJ cartridge out to 1000 yards yet is very accurate with a number of other loadings out to 600 or 700 yards. The left, right, and upper reticle posts feature precise bars for milling target sizes and distances. It is also available for the military 5.56 NATO 62-grain load. As you can see, this type of multi-reticle is quite caliber specific.









*DIALING PROS*
1. Dialing lets you concentrate on the center crosshair without worrying about selecting the wrong sub-reticle.

2. Dialing is precise and repeatable IF scope quality is up to the task.

3. Dialing windage compensates for wind deflection just as dialing elevation compensates for gravitational drop.

4. MOA changes can be made for changes in barometric pressure, elevation and other factors that change bullet drop.

*DIALING CONS*
1. Mechanical devices can fail, in which case dialing becomes inaccurate. Erector tubes and/or turret posts can wear, gall or "snag." Return springs can weaken or break. Excessive elevation and windage adjustments can pinch erector tubes against main tube walls.

2. A shooter often, usually, takes his eye off the game/target in order to see the turret and dial in the correct adjustment. He may also shift out of proper shooting position. Not a problem if the animal is sleeping or you are at the range; big problem if it steps into the trees while you're dialing. Just the few split seconds required to reestablish proper hold and cheek weld and reacquire the target in the scope can be too many. The system can be slow in the field because of this.

3. Shooters may forget to reset turrets to zero. Some turrets revolve more than one full turn, making it problematic to determine if you're at your base setting or a complete revolution beyond.

4. Turrets can be accidentally bumped. Drag your elevation turret across your jacket and you could shoot a foot over a big elk at 100 yards.

5. Shooters with declining eyesight might read dial numbers incorrectly.

*MULTIPLE RETICLE PROS*
1. Sighting marks are constant. You cannot move them too far, forget to set them back, accidentally bump them, etc.

2. You do not need to shift out of shooting position or take your eyes off your target to select your aiming point. You can keep the game/target in your sight picture while selecting the correct aiming reticle.

3. Wind deflection compensation marks can be added to each long-range sighting mark for fast drift compensation without the need to dial, saving time and minimizing confusion.

4. No mechanical changes need be made within the scope to select long-range aiming points.

5. Turrets can be kept low, minimizing bulk.

*MULTIPLE RETICLE CONS*
1. Aiming points at extreme range change with atmospheric conditions, humidity, barometric pressure, etc.

2. With the common second focal plane scopes, only one specified power setting will work accurately with all the reticles. Using subreticles at any other power will result in shooting high or low.

3. Depending on how they are laid out, subreticles can be confusing, resulting in selection of the wrong one and shooting over or under.

4. Excessive reticles can obscure the target.

Either system plus a combination of the two can be used with deadly efficiency and accuracy. More sniper-style shooters are _combining_ an elevation turret dialing system with a wind deflection multireticle system.

Whichever system you choose, dedicate yourself to studying and practicing with it until you can almost do it subconsciously. When you really need to do it under pressure, you may find it difficult to concentrate!*"*


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## longbow

Sounds like everyone has got you up to speed. Some good info to mull over.


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## Tuna On

Check out Shephard Scopes. They will take your bullet out to 1,000 accurately. One shot site, and lifetime warranty. If you know what you are doing you don't even need a range finder. If you want contact me and I might be able to get a deal on any model. Check out there website. I don't the exeact site just google it. Sweet Scopes, and each scope will work for several calibers and weight of bullets.


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## willfish4food

MadHunter said:


> I now have to collect data for the turret but I do not have a chrono yet.


I'm not sure if you've looked at the LRBC program on Vortex's website, but if you haven't it may be worth your time. They have a system that will back calculate your true velocity using your POI for targets at two different distances. I'm not sure how accurate it is compared to using a chronograph, but it's one of the systems they recommend using before finalizing your custom turrets for their scopes. I unfortunately don't have a vortex scope, but I used their calculator to check my velocity and it seemed to work pretty well.

http://www.vortexoptics.com/content/lrbc_tutorials


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## longbow

Tuna On said:


> Check out Shephard Scopes. They will take your bullet out to 1,000 accurately. One shot site, and lifetime warranty. If you know what you are doing you don't even need a range finder. If you want contact me and I might be able to get a deal on any model. Check out there website. I don't the exeact site just google it. Sweet Scopes, and each scope will work for several calibers and weight of bullets.


Great plug. I take it you haven't used a Shepherd scope. I have several friends who have owned Shepherd scopes and all have sold them. I'm in the benchrest, longrange circle of friends so I get to see alot of equiptment and scopes. I've never owned one. Good optical clarity though.


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