# Lazy - must drive ATV...



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Griping. That's what the first day back to work after a weekend hunting is for. 


I don't get many hunters. I just don't understand the logic. How does the thought process work?

While out hiking in a roadless area we came across a pop-up tent blind accompanied by a camera. It's a great area that always contains elk and deer. It's a no-brainer spot to place a blind along with a camera.

What i can't figure out is the ATV trail the person left when he set up the blind. Like I said, it's a no-brainer place for the elk...because it's roadless!! So a hunter drives his ATV in there - creating a "new" trail to his little honey-hole.

FWIW -- there were no elk in there. All sign was at least 1 week old. The trail camera had no pictures of elk on it. 

Things that make you go hmmmm......





(I was filmed on at least 9 different trail cams this weekend. It's a little bit crazy out there any more...)


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

Great post as I have had same issues scouting. First I have 4 cameras. Started putting them up as I thought useful but to me I was wrong. I realized I was spending more time putting them up then checking them etc etc and took them all down and used that time to hit the boots on the ground find track, scat, glass which is more beneficial in my eyes. Now Im looking to sell probably 2 or 3 cams as I can get by with one for the fun factor of catching animals in off season. 

As far as ATVs I hear ya. I do have a enclosed ranger. Love it for only going from camp to where I want to stop off main road and hike from there. Takes wear and tear off truck. But people who take them off road or even off a barely rarely used road with vegetation growing etc drives me nuts. We use to have same problem as Utah with alk the side roads. Game and fish then closed them off and started citing peoe on them. It made a huge difference and people started realizing they didnt have to hike as far as animals werent messed with as much. Up here its nuts with some people and the atvs. Nothing like taking 2 hours to hike about 3 miles in set up a tripod and have that thought of wow this is awesome then hear that distant roar and look down to see someone making there own path on a quad. **** irritating.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Thats pretty frustrating

I have a side by side that I use on roads to reduce my truck getting beat up. I don't do anything off those roads other than drive to where we start hiking and go from there.

Earlier this year, I was out in an area where I knew there were some elk wintering. I had seen them the week before with antlers and thought there was a great chance they'd dropped their antlers. So, my son and I walked into this roadless area to see if we couldn't see the elk and get some pictures, and if lucky pick up an antler or two.. What I found were ATV tracks all throughout the area that weren't there the previous week where someone had driven through there. Pushed all of the elk out, and left track over countless brush, and other things the wildlife utilize in the winter.. Was pretty ticked about that!


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Personally, ATV's are on my "scat list", to be nice about it. Residing on said list, right below sheep. There are a lot of lazy people out there, and you can hear them coming for miles. Opening day of the Elk Archery hunt, I could see exactly when most of the other hunters were making their way to wherever they were going, because skyline drive suddenly becomes active. I had already hiked in, and was sitting in the dark, waiting for grey light. The stars and full moon were nice, and I could hear where the Elk were long before most of those jokers.

Sometimes, I swear, you can hear an ATV, probably 5 minutes before you'll see the ATV. Lot's of lazy people, that get up too late in the morning. Funny thing is, the other day my wife was wondering when camping and hunting became a rich man's activity. Lots of money is being spent on some really fancy 4 wheelers and side by sides these days. It's probably why some people insist on using them; if you drop 4 grand on some fancy 4 wheeler, or 9 grand on a fancy sidebyside, your probably going to use it, hunt be damned, and in some cases roads be damned. 


For the record, I prefer to walk. You can see more, hear more, and find more that way. Aside from that, it's good for you. Keeps you in shape, which is good for your health.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Lone_Hunter said:


> if you drop 4 grand on some fancy 4 wheeler, or 9 grand on a fancy sidebyside


Uhhh whens the last time you priced new OHVs?

The high end Maverick X3 Turbo SxS is $30,000.

The new 2020 Polaris Sportsman 1000S "Unlimited" ATV is a mere $15,000.

**__IT_IS_A_RICH_MANS_SPORT__**

-DallanC


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

ATVs have their place. There is nothing wrong with using an ATV, as long as it is being used appropriately -- in areas designated for them. Riding an ATV down a bumpy dirt road is perfectly fine. It's just when people decide that because their machine has the capability to create a new trail....then they do it. That's a problem.


for the record, I use an ATV to get to from camp to our hike-in areas.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

DallanC said:


> Uhhh whens the last time you priced new OHVs?
> 
> The high end Maverick X3 Turbo SxS is $30,000.
> 
> ...


Apparently not anytime recently! We just bought our first 4 wheeler last year. Spent $2500 on a 2003 polaris 2 stroke with 1500 miles on it if i remember correctly. I rarely use it.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Lone_Hunter -- it isn't just the ATVs. Look at every piece of equipment used in today's hunting world. Many of the archery sights are more expensive than the bow I used for years! How 'bout binoculars and spotting scopes? Camo! Toy-haulers to haul your SxS and sleep 6 with AC. The rifle wasn't too expensive -- but the ammo runs $100 per box!

Hunters are worse than anglers when it comes to pricey gear...


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

PBH said:


> Lone_Hunter -- it isn't just the ATVs. Look at every piece of equipment used in today's hunting world. Many of the archery sights are more expensive than the bow I used for years! How 'bout binoculars and spotting scopes? Camo! Toy-haulers to haul your SxS and sleep 6 with AC. The rifle wasn't too expensive -- but the ammo runs $100 per box!
> 
> Hunters are worse than anglers when it comes to pricey gear...


Shhhh, don't tell the wife. :mrgreen:

Honestly though, stuff can add up, but I think you can find equipment that does the job without buying the top end stuff. I spent $20 dollars on sights for my old school compound bow, and tagged out on opening day of my first archery hunt (yeah I know, I was REALLY lucky), binos... you got me there, Im making due with some bushnells ( I hate bushnell), Camo i'm coming to learn is overrated at some point, etc etc. There's a happy medium somewhere for just about everything.

OHV's though are a huge kettle of fish. Buy one of those, then you need this, that, and a toy hauler. Although, except to keep the wife and kids happy or not complaining, you really don't really *NEED* a trailer at all though in my opinion. Just a good tent, and a means to haul your 4 wheeler. I'm referbing this old tilt bed trailer right now actually. Beats buying a new trailer. I'm starting to hate trailers in general. Buy a new one, and your just buying a problem. Buy a used one and your buying someone elses problem. After I get done with this tilt bed OHV trailer, i have to start working on our 5th wheel again. A small 19-20 footer made in 1991, lots to maintain. -O,-

EDIT: as an aside, I'm not saying ATV's don't have a place, I will say however, that people OVERUSE them.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> ATVs have their place. There is nothing wrong with using an ATV, as long as it is being used appropriately -- in areas designated for them. Riding an ATV down a bumpy dirt road is perfectly fine. It's just when people decide that because their machine has the capability to create a new trail....then they do it. That's a problem.


+1000

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> Toy-haulers to haul your SxS and sleep 6 with AC.


You will only pry the keys to my Toyhauler from my Cold (due to fantastic AC) dead fingers. I love that trailer!

-DallanC


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

PBH said:


> Griping. That's what the first day back to work after a weekend hunting is for.
> 
> I don't get many hunters. I just don't understand the logic. How does the thought process work?
> 
> ...


Record and report?


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

Kinda cracks me up reading as yes I have a utv. Yes only use from point A to point B on main roads. Its quieter than most trucks out there but again never use it offroad. Its actually used more plowing myndriveway in winter and my kids on camping trips. However where I came from a quad could be taken off road to retrieve elk. And yep two bulls I took in canyons yes I walked that in to retrieve better believe it. But it was areas no one even wanted to hike into so didnt screw much up. 

For all the gear Im guilty as heck. Yes Swarovski binos, spotters, kirafu pack etc etc. And guess what yes its super nice but I have had lots of days where ive regretted not picking up a 600 dollar pair of those new leupold 10x50s and a Vortex spotter. I think we do overkill our gear at times keeping up with the Jones' when I see older guys with walmart stuff and always a nice buck or elk in their truck. Matter of fact ive contemplated selling my new 95 atx and 12x50 els and banking some of that and still having good glass so anyone interested let me know. Lol

As for my enclosed ranger heck no. I got rid of my toyhauler to have that and love it as I dont beat my truck anymore. Instead I roll with a kodiak canvass tent with a heater buddy. Those tents kick butt.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> ATVs have their place. There is nothing wrong with using an ATV, as long as it is being used appropriately -- in areas designated for them. Riding an ATV down a bumpy dirt road is perfectly fine. It's just when people decide that because their machine has the capability to create a new trail....then they do it. That's a problem.


You liberal tree hugger!

I'm kidding. And agree. I love ATV/UTVs. They are a lot of fun and very useful tools at times. The illegal use of them off trail makes me angry.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> You liberal tree hugger!


You should have seen me and W2U rooting for the bear (and her cub) to tear into a dog!!

It was kind of weird.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I think the DWR should outlaw the use of trail cameras and two way radios. Get off your lazy ARRS and hunt like we did 20 years ago------ from the front seat of the truck. LOL -O,-


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

taxidermist said:


> I think the DWR should outlaw the use of trail cameras and two way radios. Get off your lazy ARRS and hunt like we did 20 years ago------ from the front seat of the truck. LOL -O,-


You better change that to 40+ years ago.

I've been riding a 4wheeler now for 30 years and a couple of my hunting partners have been riding 3wheelers longer than that

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Why do you think Utah wants to build roads through the wilderness. Lazy ass people


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I have maps from the 1960's that show multilple roads on FS land that have since been closed. It is not really a new thing.
I have an ATV and stay on designated roads and trails. And I agree you certainly have a a gripe in a wilderness area. But I think the most abuse comes on normal FS and BLM.
And I hate to complain but if you have a dedicated road through private property you will see destruction on both sides of the road because of the mentality of " here hold my beer while I climb this hill".
Trouble is I think only maybe 50 percent of those on atv/utv are actually "hunters". The rest are out enjoying nature at 40 mph.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

middlefork said:


> I have maps from the 1960's that show multilple roads on FS land that have since been closed. It is not really a new thing.
> I have an ATV and stay on designated roads and trails. And I agree you certainly have a a gripe in a wilderness area. But I think the most abuse comes on normal FS and BLM.
> And I hate to complain but if you have a dedicated road through private property you will see destruction on both sides of the road because of the mentality of " here hold my beer while I climb this hill".
> Trouble is I think only maybe 50 percent of those on atv/utv are actually "hunters". The rest are out enjoying nature at 40 mph.


Yep you can blame congress for that. 
By limiting the FS or BLM budget they cannot afford to maintain every road. So they have to close them out of lack of funds. 
Has been a tactic of a few Utah reps. 
But good news is the best hunting sign you will ever see is road closed


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Blame them for that? Or thank them for that? 

I’m confused...


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Really depends on how you look at it. 
Good for foot soldiers 
Bad for lazy people
Good for politicians that want to get people behind them on land transfer using it as proof the government is locking them out of their lands. While cutting budgets in the background to fuel the fire.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

So I’m going with “thank.”

Utah is not hurting in the legal off-road trail system arena. Plenty of places to ride legally for everyone that wants to do it. Every ridge does not need and should not have a road on it.


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## KalebReese (Sep 5, 2016)

I was pretty shocked the first time I went hunting in Utah at the amount of people on ATVs with complete disregard for the rules and regulations. The first couple days, we didn’t get that far from roads and we seen more people riding ATVs illegally off road than we did other people hunting on foot.

For the record I don’t own an ATV and I’m completely for them being used legally. Like AZnative said though, nothing is more frustrating then spending hours and energy hiking in and then having an ATV come bee bopping through right as the sun is getting ready to come up.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Critter said:


> You better change that to 40+ years ago.
> 
> I've been riding a 4wheeler now for 30 years and a couple of my hunting partners have been riding 3wheelers longer than that
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


Critter is right! 40 years ago. Guess time fly's when your having fun.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

This topic of wilderness, roads, atv/utv, trucks, motorized vehicles, etc. being used in FS ground has been beat to death in similar post over the years. 


What I see most is the hikers complain about the vehicles, and visa versa. I feel ALL parties are to blame to some extent. I use both methods for hunting. An ATV/UTV can rip a road apart depending on how that individual drives. I've also found trash in areas where a motorized vehicle could never make it to. So, how did it get there??


I'm just saying--there is not a perfect solution. Each side of the fence has dip sh!ts that screw it up and make us as "Sportsmen and Women" look bad. It wont change until each one of us take care of our little neck of the woods and police our own person.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

It's always disappointing to be miles into a "roadless area" and discover fresh tracks, broken auto equipment, etc. It's difficult to find areas more than 4-5 miles from a legal road on most hunt units (minus the Uintas), nonetheless illegal ones. 

I've reported such use before with detailed gps data. Normal response has been appreciation but with a heavy dose of honest detachment; there simply aren't enough LEs or FPOs to patrol the areas. It's a little different in heavily trafficked areas, like Duck Ck. 

I have no problem with legal ATV use but sure wish there were real consequences for illegal travel.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

backcountry said:


> I have no problem with legal ATV use but sure wish there were real consequences for illegal travel.


I completely agree. Make the fine $10,000.00 and it probably wouldn't take long to curve this issue, at least reduce it significantly.

Example:

I know a property where trespassing occurred for years. The same individual would trespass in the early 90's and shoot a bull elk every year. Every year was the same trespassing citation, every year was the same story from the trespasser - "I'll gladly pay the trespassing fine, it's cheaper than paying the trespass permit fee."

One year the landowner had enough and prosecuted said trespasser - stating the elk the trespasser was killing were worth $12,500 each. The landowner won and the trespasser had to pony up plenty in fines.

This sent a clear message to the group of individuals that used to trespass on this property, and almost overnight, trespassing decreased to nearly nothing.

Funny after-fact - said trespasser decided to trespass on one of the indian reservations in Utah, was caught during his first attempt, and I don't think things ended too well for him . . .


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> I completely agree. Make the fine $10,000.00 and it probably wouldn't take long to curve this issue, at least reduce it significantly.


I know a couple guys that took motorcycles up onto Box Elder Peak shortly after it was turned into a wilderness area. The FS caught them and called a helicopter to air lift the bikes off, then sent the bill to the guys along with a ticket and fine. It was quite expensive.

That area is beautiful today, but the trails are 1000x worse from thousands of steel shod horses tearing up the muddy trails. Trails were kept pretty decent prior to that when you could drive a jeep up to the divide.

The day before the wilderness designation took place, my dad loaded me and my brother in our jeep and we took a last ride up the trail to the "intake" area. Beautiful day, great memory... I regret I cant do that with my son.

-DallanC


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

CPAjeff said:


> I completely agree. Make the fine $10,000.00 and it probably wouldn't take long to curve this issue, at least reduce it significantly.


This. Family cabin just outside of Heber, so I spend time up Lake Creek. There's a forest boundary sign right near some corrals were tons of people unload their wheelers/bikes. There are BIG signs stating the area is a non-motorized vehicle area, but no one cares. You could write $$$'s tickets galore on any giving weekend morning during the summer/fall. It could pay for a person's salary it's so bad.


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

G dog, are you talking about the place where people park off the side of the road? Or the road in general? Just curious as I park right there basically 20 feet off the main road and unload my Polaris ranger and leave from there. Im guessing their might be a trail your talking about that sign pertains too? Either way my ranger is street legal to drive on even highways so its good to drive on any marked forest road. I will have to look for that sign and see as im curious now. If that spot isnt good for parking I guess they can fine anyone camping there as usually there are a boatload of camp trailers there too.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I've confronted a few off roader's in my time afield. 
It can get a little intense at times.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

gdog said:


> This. Family cabin just outside of Heber, so I spend time up Lake Creek. There's a forest boundary sign right near some corrals were tons of people unload their wheelers/bikes. There are BIG signs stating the area is a non-motorized vehicle area, but no one cares. You could write $$$'s tickets galore on any giving weekend morning during the summer/fall. It could pay for a person's salary it's so bad.


It has been awhile but when I had my Wasatch tag in 2011 there was a FS LEO officer handing out tickets like they were for the World Series I want to say on Labor Day weekend at the top of Clyde Creek. There was a road that branched off the main road that led to some camp spots in a meadow. It was clearly marked closed to ATV's but everybody just unloaded and rode the couple of hundred yards to the road that was open.
Pure entertainment!


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

Haha I better open my eyes better then if its the same spot. I honestly only unload in that spot as each time I drive by there is like 5 to 7 other trucks with empty trailers so figured it was good to park there. The spot im talking about is literally right where pavement ends and turns to dirt off to the left.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Aznative said:


> Haha I better open my eyes better then if its the same spot. I honestly only unload in that spot as each time I drive by there is like 5 to 7 other trucks with empty trailers so figured it was good to park there. The spot im talking about is literally right where pavement ends and turns to dirt off to the left.


Same spot. Its a "non motorized vehicle area", which means atvs/utvs not registered/licensed for road use (like a car) are not allowed on the roads and there is no off-road use. You need to be on top going over by tower mountain for non licensed atvs/utv use on the roads. Obviously your Ranger is good to go since its licensed, but many are not.

Good example of how people just don't pay attention to the regulations...


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I agree 100% with the desire to see more enforcement. However, there is a price to be paid for said enforcement and I don't mean the salary of the LEO writing the tickets. 

If/when the FS or other enforcement entities started really going after these guys and the tickets got written, especially if some were received by certain well connected "locals", then you can be guaranteed that complaints would rain down on the local county commissioners, state legislators, and National congressmen about the terrible gubmint overreach taking place in the National Forests, and that the eevil Feds are "kicking us off the mountain". Politicians will use these complaints in their rhetoric to work certain constituents to a froth and push forward TPL and other land grab schemes. 

With that in mind, I am somewhat impressed that there is the enforcement there actually is.


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

I guess I dont pay attention as I always make my stuff legal and dont drive my utv off the main roads. I guess if I wasn't street legal id pay more attention to that. But if true than yep im sure many break that rule. However I think it would be better use of DWR finding guys going off the main road than a quad riding on a main road. Just me but if what we are complaining about is people going off main roads that would seem more important. Plus there isnt enough officers to enforce everything. I say we all just need to call guys out we see doing it more often.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

gdog said:


> Same spot. Its a "non motorized vehicle area", which means atvs/utvs not registered/licensed for road use (like a car) are not allowed on the roads and there is no off-road use. You need to be on top going over by tower mountain for non licensed atvs/utv use on the roads. Obviously your Ranger is good to go since its licensed, but many are not.
> 
> Good example of how people just don't pay attention to the regulations...


Good example how some communities are over regulated.

Thank goodness I can ride my atv right out of my driveway (in Grantsville) and down any street in my neighborhood until I reach the BLM or Forrest service property.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

I've got to second Dallan c, horses beat the crap out of trails and the trails that were once accessible roads all across this state have become run down. Look at all the forest service hiking trails that don't get maintained and become overgrown and inaccessible. It's all just part of a long term plan to keep you and I off the public land. Back in the day you could actually drive into the woods to camp. Now the Gov has shut down so many of the side roads and says you can only camp 150ft from the road so its next to impossible to get away from all the atvs and diesel's and you are forced to camp along main roads while your camp gets blasted full of dust with no privacy. 150 ft is only 50 yards.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Good example how some communities are over regulated.


I'm glad for regulations in many areas. On a good day maybe 50% even know the regulations and of that maybe half give a **** at best.

Don't have the answer. I own a UTV and a dirt bike that I use to hunt off of on occasion, but many areas are turning into the Baja 500.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

gdog said:


> Don't have the answer. I own a UTV and a dirt bike that I use to hunt off of on occasion, but many areas are turning into the Baja 500.


It's called "self control".

for some reason, many people don't have it. Regulations or not, there is a thing called "right and wrong", and some people just don't have the mental fortitude to make the "right" decisions.

The area I originally started this discussion about is an old logging area. The access road has a fence across the road as well as burms and boulders to stop traffic. The fence has been cut, the boulders moved, and burms don't stop ATVs. Only self control can stop them.

Again, what I just cannot fathom, is why? It's an easy area to hike. Driving ATVs in this area will only push the animals out, and invite additional traffic. Why would any hunter want either of those outcomes??


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

This has actually been a good thread. In one way we have kinda liberal CA thinking if more regs and no one reads them and in another way kinda more common sense approach. I think it sucks either way you look at it. We cant go after guys who legally ride roads and say you dont know regs and we cant sit and watch people destroy stuff either. I still believe the state can do a better job but we as sportsmen should start voicing up alot when we see it happen. A little pack mentality. Lol


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I'm not sure the state can enforce these laws on federal land, but I could be wrong. Maybe the DWR has a working agreement but I don't believe they have the authority to do more than educate,

And it is always preferable for a community to self regulate and self police. Cooperation at the individual and community levels is one of the best ways to prevent over-regulation. 

Unfortunately that often doesn't happen and we are stuck with a compliance framework. That's always more tense and as we are seeing it's often less than successful given the lack of LEOs for such expansive tracts of land. That seems to actually empower the cheaters to push their behavior even further. I would bet we've all seen evidence of this fact. And there isn't much we can do without explicit evidence and a political willingness to prosecute. As others have highlighted, local agencies, at least in many parts of southern Utah, are hesitant to enforce those penalties because of their relationship with the state.

As to why ... There will always be those cheaters in every community. It's sadly predictable. If those few individuals can take shortcuts to increase success or make it easier, they will. True from poaching to illegal motorized use and I'm not sure what we can do other than educate and report.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

The DNR which the DWR falls under can and does enforce the travel laws on NF and BLM. I've seen it many times in the north part of the state. I've also seen plenty of FS LEO. But they certainly can't be everywhere at once.


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

True to that. Not enough manpower. And yes DWR officers are state certified and can even make arrests on federal property. But this is an issue that will never go away.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

middlefork said:


> The DNR which the DWR falls under can and does enforce the travel laws on NF and BLM. I've seen it many times in the north part of the state. I've also seen plenty of FS LEO. But they certainly can't be everywhere at once.


When I worked for the forest service we had 1 LE for the entire district. We had some people working towards FPO but they tended to be more transient employees. We are talking 100s of thousands of acres of land with that many officers.

The northern units definitely have more enforcement. Southern Utah is a different world. Our districts are massive and have few people out patrolling the roads and trails. I've only ever seen 1 LE, on personal time, in living here 13 years and I've never seen a conservation officer. They rightfully don't broadcast those realities but there is a reason they encourage things like reporting poachers, etc.

I've reported illegal activity multiple times both personally and professionally. I handed over gps data and photographs and not once have they been interested. They often already know but don't have the support to prosecute in this region. And that goes much deeper than just staffing and budgetary constraints.

Per state officers citing... I'm not talking about legal ATVs parking in the wrong spot or non-street legal vehicles driving on designated roads. My question is about ATVs deep into federal roadless areas; I've never seen that type of enforcement nor am I certain on how that issue plays out with state jurisdiction. Do DWR officers actually engage that? If so, could someone point me towards evidence? I ask as I will start reporting to multiple agencies in the future if I know there is overlap.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

middlefork said:


> I've also seen plenty of FS LEO.


LOL... there's an entirely different "vibe" when encountering a FS LEO checkpoint for sure. Those guys generally have no sense of humor and consider everyone "guilty" of something and its just a matter of finding the "of what".

That said, the last FS LEO checkpoint I got stopped on, the officer checking our catch completely lost his mind when he saw our huge (and 100% legal) pile of large Kokanee salmon. That guy suddenly wanted to be my best friend and was asking me all kinds of questions, where I got them, what lures, how deep, how to fish etc etc. He even brought over other officers to take a gander. It was quite comical. They were handing out an amazing number of tickets though to other people (@ strawberry, biggest infraction was filleting fish).

I generally get along with LEOs of all types though. Its a thankless job, they certainly don't need me making their day worse.

-DallanC


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

backcountry said:


> I'm not sure what we can do other than educate and report.


Confiscate and fine. Why not have LEOs sitting on the road on opening morning of the hunts? All he has to do is sit with a phone scope, take pictures and meet them at camp with a trailer. "Here's your $1500 ticket for driving a fire hazard through the brush, now where's the DWR's new ATV? And please go get the title like a good boy, thanks."

We all do have cameras on our phones now by the way, and a dude would have to be crazy to try to pick a fight with me when that picture I just took of his license plate was just saved to the cloud.


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

To answer some of the questions whether DWR Officers can cite forest land. I just retired LE in AZ. Most states including Utah their Game and Fish Officers have to go to the same Academy as City Police or County Deputies. They then become state certified. Which means they can issue citations even on federal land. What they do is just use a federal statute code and under the court information they cite you into whatever jurisdiction that pertains to forest / federal land. Now Indian Reservations are different. Usually a Reservation will have whats called a Mutual Aid agency like a Sheriffs department that they allow to assist them on calls or even take enforcement action if need be. But all of that aside usually their might be only two DWR Officers assigned for one hunt unit. That makes it pretty hard for them to catch every single person or go way back in the woods to just find illegal road useage. And yes it might be fristrating when you turn plates, pictures, videos etc of this activity to them and they dont do anything. But those few officers have case loads. They have to prioritize those cases which if they have several poaching cases they are going to work those first as its more important. Now if Utah would use some volunteer officers that arent state certified but allowed them to ticket civil court issues that could help however trust me you dont want civilian volunteers doing that as most are wannabe officers that will try to do everything and anything to be jerks. Not all but some. So in all thats why I feel we have to take some action with seeing stuff and just call people out. Yes most might give ya the bird but some will probably change their tactic once called out. But trying to have officers sit an area and bust everyone for road violations is like asking officers to sit at one stopsign all day and catch people rolling thru it when they could be out trying to arrest drug dealers, burglars, dangerous crime etc. Its all priorities.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Thx for clarifying, AZ.

And I definitely hold anything against LEs in any of the agencies. The times I've reported with no progress was because of their superiors and local politics. But that's beyond the scope of this thread.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

It will be good to have someone with real world experience with this type of enforcement weighing in, thank you. To my eyes though, illegal ATV activity is rampant to a point where it shouldn't be hard to catch people doing it. I wish I'd had a camera ready, one time I was driving a road opening morning of general season deer and some dude pulled out in front of me on an ATV in the dark and cut my speed by half (which was already below the speed limit because it was dark), creeping along in the middle of the road. As we passed a No OHVs sign he looked back at me and just kept going, so I turned my offroad lamps on and rode his bumper until he pulled over and let me pass. Guy looked mad but two guys with guns is not the start of a productive conversation so I kept driving. That whole road is no-OHVs, he was a couple miles into no-OHV restricted area and there were multiple people riding around on them that seemed to be in the same group.

This is really just the craziest of multiple interactions with OHV riders. Especially during hunting season they seem to think that using an OHV in an area where they're prohibited is good way to get an advantage. So I'm not just talking about the odd rando driving his ATV deep in the backwoods, we have tons of idiots in this state literally driving past signs with a big crossed out ATV rider on them all day long.


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

No I agree it would be nice to catch more. Its sad though as even state government they create so many jobs in the political arena that are not needed to where if they stopped that political bs we could have so many more frontline employees and actually handle these issues better. Its a joke at the top of govt.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Jedidiah said:


> ...we have tons of idiots in this state literally driving OVER signs with a big crossed out ATV rider on them all day long.


fixed it for you.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

A couple more comments.

1.


PBH said:


> The access road has a fence across the road as well as burms and boulders to stop traffic. The fence has been cut, the boulders moved, and burms don't stop ATVs. Only self control can stop them.
> 
> Again, what I just cannot fathom, is why? It's an easy area to hike. Driving ATVs in this area will only push the animals out, and invite additional traffic. Why would any hunter want either of those outcomes??


I think there are two reasons why. The first is that some folks are just dirtbags and do what they want. Sadly, hunting, fishing, and ATV riding seem to attract a few of this type. They are found everywhere and are likewise a problem everywhere. They are generally disliked.

The second is a cultural mentality of some that they "own the mountain", they know best, and they are not going to let some clown from the gubmint tell them what to do. The feeling is cultural and supported by local society. Instead of disapproval for these actions, an affirming wink or nod of approval may be given. This is more pervasive in certain areas and is going to be very difficult behavior to combat.

2.


backcountry said:


> local agencies, at least in many parts of southern Utah, are hesitant to enforce those penalties because of their relationship with the state.


Correct, and this is another huge part of the enforcement equation. What good is writing tickets if the local justice court does nothing with them and is antagonistic towards the enforcement action to begin with?

Again, it sounds great to talk a good game regarding stricter enforcement and busting the bad guys, but if the entrenched system is against the action from start to finish, actual success isn't going to happen.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

DallanC said:


> LOL... there's an entirely different "vibe" when encountering a FS LEO checkpoint for sure. Those guys generally have no sense of humor and consider everyone "guilty" of something and its just a matter of finding the "of what".
> 
> -DallanC


LOL I was showing a friend around an area one time and came upon a FS LEO stopped on the side of the road. I told my friend, we will stop and ask them if they have a travel map so my friend could learn the area. I get out and walk to the truck and asked him the question. He says maybe, let me get out and look. He gets out rests his hand on his weapon and asks for my drivers licence, insurance and registration.


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## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

Why is an ATV not allowed to be on a road a truck is on?


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

ns450f said:


> I've got to second Dallan c, horses beat the crap out of trails and the trails that were once accessible roads all across this state have become run down. Look at all the forest service hiking trails that don't get maintained and become overgrown and inaccessible. It's all just part of a long term plan to keep you and I off the public land. Back in the day you could actually drive into the woods to camp. Now the Gov has shut down so many of the side roads and says you can only camp 150ft from the road so its next to impossible to get away from all the atvs and diesel's and you are forced to camp along main roads while your camp gets blasted full of dust with no privacy. 150 ft is only 50 yards.


There is no long term plan to keep us out of public lands. That's lack of funding and budgets to keep things open.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

300 Wby said:


> Why is an ATV not allowed to be on a road a truck is on?


Street legal ATV or UTV is allowed.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

300 Wby said:


> Why is an ATV not allowed to be on a road a truck is on?


I think it is a ranger district decision. I know on the Wasatch I have to scratch my head a little to figure out why one dirt road is open and another is closed.
Up north on the Cache I can't think of a dirt road that is closed to any ATV/UTV.

50 inch trails are a different ball game. And I'm all for them to be restricted. There are even a few single tracks open to motorized vehicles. Have fun.


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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

And guess what everyone and sorry to bring it up but now with those ebikes its gonna be a whole different game in future. Ive seen prototypes of some with two bigger wheels in the back and a bigger storage spot. No they wont be able to get off trail but its just gonna get more people further out. But dont worry the way things change you will be able to order a 350 bull on amazon with a hunter to go get it. Sorry to rant but I miss when I was a kid in my dads pickup driving to a spot getting out to hike and not having all these issues. Gone are the good days huh.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

But back back in those "good old days" there were totes goat cycles along with 4x4 Jeeps that people took everywhere

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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

Yes Critter you are right but I guess just not as many hunters. Atleast not as many I recall. Now half the guys out there messing up hunts dont even hunt. They put on some sitka, pretty up go take some pics, drive to cell coverage, post to social media then go back to camp lol.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I look at all the old mining roads that we now run on down in Arizona with our ATV's and wonder what we would do to get into areas without them, except hiking in 

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## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

Very true however just coming up here from AZ its easier to get away with it down there as they do not have even half the hunters in the woods that we have up here. I could literally find my own slice of land down there and maybe see 2 people for the week. The state of Utah must make some good cash off tags here.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> But back back in those "good old days" there were totes goat cycles along with 4x4 Jeeps that people took everywhere


And Rokon 2 wheel drive motorcycles 8)

-DallanC


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> But back back in those "good old days" there were totes goat cycles along with 4x4 Jeeps that people took everywhere
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


And 200,000+ rifle hunters on opening day.


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## olibooger (Feb 13, 2019)

DallanC said:


> CPAjeff said:
> 
> 
> > I completely agree. Make the fine $10,000.00 and it probably wouldn't take long to curve this issue, at least reduce it significantly.
> ...


Me and my 8 year old hiked the 11.4 mile trail from Mendon to Mantua, Rattlesnake side this past weekend over 4 days. It may not he what you remember it but it is still quite enjoyable.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

300 Wby said:


> Why is an ATV not allowed to be on a road a truck is on?


ATV/Utv use seems to really degrade dirt roads. I use a Razor or atvs on dirt roads to save my truck- mostly because of how bad the roads are from atv/utv use. But I also ride a steel shod horse at times- ruining the trails and being a nuisance. haha


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

olibooger said:


> Me and my 8 year old hiked the 11.4 mile trail from Mendon to Mantua, Rattlesnake side this past weekend over 4 days. It may not he what you remember it but it is still quite enjoyable.


IDK anything about the area you mention, I've never been there. I'm talking about now closed road up to Box Elder Peak in Utah county, ie: 40°31'34.91"N 111°41'11.04"W

-DallanC


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## olibooger (Feb 13, 2019)

DallanC said:


> olibooger said:
> 
> 
> > Me and my 8 year old hiked the 11.4 mile trail from Mendon to Mantua, Rattlesnake side this past weekend over 4 days. It may not he what you remember it but it is still quite enjoyable.
> ...


Different Box Elder peaks with different horse shoes but a very similar description &#129300;


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

olibooger said:


> Different Box Elder peaks with different horse shoes but a very similar description &#129300;


Heh... kindof like the 480 different "Silver Lake's" we have in every single state.

-DallanC


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

middlefork said:


> And 200,000+ rifle hunters on opening day.


 I remember the last 200,000 hunt I saw deer running around all day long.


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