# A friend's Nebo Bull



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

A lot of scouting this year paid off. He got this bull yesterday morning. The bull came in running to the call.

What do you think he scores?


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Nice bull.I will say some where in the 350 to 360 area.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

Good job! Nice bull! Congrats!


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## Kingfisher (Jul 25, 2008)

nice bull. the 3's are ok, the 4's are short, 12-14 inches or so, the whale tail is a short y, right first eyeguard isnt fully developed, so... 320 or so.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Nice bull regardless of the score!


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Nice. 8)


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## fussy (Sep 26, 2010)

350ish, but that don't mean anything.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

333 is my guess. Do you know CS??


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

This bull's age is 12 years old. This is another reason why age class objectives doesn't work.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

so what did he ever score I would say near 331


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

Nice bull 336


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## kk11 (Sep 17, 2007)

Nice Bull


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2011)

for the nebo, thats a **** good bull! muzzy bull?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Hard to tell from 1 photo, but the thirds are great and I think his beam mass is making him look a bit smaller. I'd say he's 350-360.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

This bull and the story is on Tines up..

Was posted on there last fall,,,,,,,This was the ONLY bull this guy saw the whole rifle hunt.

And its a good picture because I'm pretty sure it scored right around 325.....

How did I do Yote? right or wrong?

Or do I need to give this guy a call and find out for sure, and tell him hes now famous on UWN?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I'd say around 320"


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

Nice!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Lane, the hunter, claims it was scored at 352. I would try to get some pictures of the side view. Lane also bought a Nebo tag this year at one of the MDF banquets.

Goofy, we saw a ton of bulls before the hunt, but we were after this one. Another hunter killed a 378 bull last year that I know of.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Lane, the hunter, claims it was scored at 352. I would try to get some pictures of the side view. *Lane also bought a Nebo tag this year at one of the MDF banquets.*
> Goofy, we saw a ton of bulls before the hunt, but we were after this one. Another hunter killed a 378 bull last year that I know of.


I hope that you gave him a tongue lashing on the evils of pimping out critters at the banquetts of the people that you hate the most.

Now get off the high horse and give this guy a high five for killing a great bull which was something unheard of 20 years ago.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Someone also claims that it is 362 on tines up what to beleive. Either way nice bull YOTE. http://www.tinesup.com/board/board_topi ... 727480.htm


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Thanks for the link pheaz,,,,That clearly shows that it was a 320ish bull.
And as for Lance buying a conservation tag, THE PRICES ARE DROPPING!
The thought of buying a tag on the Nebo has crossed my mind, I can shoot
a bull like that off my bask back deck of my house................. 8)

What did he pay for it Yote ?? 2K?.

And Elk22 is right, If not for the sportsmen movement and SFW in 1993,
Utah would probably still have elk herds More resembling our current
deer situation,,,,,,,,,,A FEW good spots, and the rest really sucking.

Now, While were talking Nebo elk, Here's the new idea I'm going to throw
at the Wildlife board....
The Nebo elk are currently under Age/herd objective, and LE & cow tags
are being cut, Rightfully so. Now I'm taking it one step further and suggesting
when an elk unit gos under objectives it SHOULD ALSO BE CLOSED to spike hunting.

Look for this soon at up coming meetings.......


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## c3hammer (Nov 1, 2009)

coyoteslayer said:


> This bull's age is 12 years old. This is another reason why age class objectives doesn't work.


Why does that prove age class objectives don't work? A 362 bull that is 12 years old sounds just about right to me. What other option is there?


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2011)

:roll: why is it that everyone thinks a 12 year old bull should be a 400"+?? ...only in utah :roll:


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> Now, While were talking Nebo elk, Here's the new idea I'm going to throw
> at the Wildlife board....
> The Nebo elk are currently under Age/herd objective, and LE & cow tags
> are being cut.......


i heard they did away with the late season cow hunt all together this year on the nebo... do you know if this is true?


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## deerlove (Oct 20, 2010)

Yep this bull would NOT of been possible with out SFW. Classic Did he BUY the second tag from you?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

c3hammer said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > This bull's age is 12 years old. This is another reason why age class objectives doesn't work.
> ...


Because SFW along with many other hunters believe that if we keep raising the age class objective then our bull elk will reach their peak at 400 BC inches which simply isn't the case. Some bulls will never be bigger than 320. Some bulls will never get bigger than 350BC which are still great bulls, but this idea that the older the bull the bigger he gets is flat out wrong because of genetics NOT age.

The best option is to manage elk by bull to cow ratios instead of average age of harvest.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

I've said this before but -- I can't agree more with CS. Managing an elk herd by the age of the animals that were harvested out of it makes no sense at all.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Yote can you give me atleast one tine length? I'm having a heck of a time getting even 330 right now.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I fancy myself as an above average scorer, and IMHO, it is impossible to get an accurate score from ONE picture, or even several pictures. But, what do I know? I know that this is a great bull regardless of what a tape stretches to!

Managing to harvest age averages is inane. The question was posed; what other option is there....how about bull:cow ratios and calf:cow ratios? There are MANY flaws to using harvest ages for determining how many permits to issue on a unit. 1)The data only tells the age of the bulls killed, it gives NO data on the age of the bulls still alive. 2)A bull elk's age is only one of several factors that go into the size of it's antler size. The condition of the bull when it starts growing a new set of antlers is often over-looked. Other factors are nutrition, available moisture, the temperature during antler growth, genetics, and stress levels. 3)Harvest ages tell nothing of the health of the herd, bull:cow ratios can/do tell everything harvest ages tell plus many more. 4)Harvest age objectives force a herd to carry excess bulls, many that 'trophy hunters' deem _inferior_ in order to have enough 'quality' bulls available for the 'trophy hunters' to harvest. There are more, but these are more than enough......

It amazes me how people who are on most issues able to show some semblance of intelligence actually believe SFW is the reason we have 'world-class' bull elk, and that this somehow equates to healthier elk herds. I don't get it. How does the size of antlers determine herd health? Help me out!


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## c3hammer (Nov 1, 2009)

Interesting take you guys have on age class vs. bull/cow ratio as a management tool. As many of you know I've been a long time supporter of lower bull to cow ratio's. There is no question that when we have more bulls than cows on a unit we are in for some trouble.

I've never seen the age class go up, but the one year they lowered all units then back up to previous levels the following year. For the most part the whole entire state has been over age class objectives for the past 7 or 8 years.

Both methods of management are asking for the same thing. More big bull tags to lower age class or conversely more big bull tags vs. cow tags to lower the bull to cow ratio. In my opinion we need both sides of the coin to see the whole picture. Herd health is largely determined by environement and bull to cow ratio's. Trophy caliber is mostly determined by age class for a given genetics and environment.

I'd very much like to see the average age class of harvest for 2010. I'll suggest that it was nearly at an all time high yet the inch class of the bulls was only reasonable, due to a number of environmental issues the critters had to deal with last year.

In any case when we are harvesting 10 and 12 year old bulls, we know that herd health is more than adequate on the bull side


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> It amazes me how people who are on most issues able to show some semblance of intelligence actually believe SFW is the reason we have 'world-class' bull elk, and that this somehow equates to healthier elk herds. I don't get it. How does the size of antlers determine herd health? Help me out!


I honestly believe this is the nicest way that I have ever had my intelligence questioned. 

I have never said that age quotas make for healthy herds. I realize that there is a huge issue on getting the management bulls killed that are now doing the breeding since they are overlooked by those doing the harvest. I do believe and know that before SFW there were not any big bulls and now there are too many. A better problem in my mind but still a problem. I still like the idea of giving out management tags to seniors and youth for 5 point on at least one side bulls. i don't like the allowing the spike hunters on the LE units to take out bulls before we know their potential. I am big on issuing more tags, just not more "any bull" tags.

If one feels that we would have big bulls like we do now and SFW had not been involved, I question their intelligence. :mrgreen:

Having said that, I still feel that the sportsmans voice is being heard by the DWR, the wildlife board and the boys on capitol hill. If YOUR (general sportsman in Utah) voice is not being heard, you will do much better by getting involved with SFW and let them hear your concerns and hopefully voice them to the affore mentioned groups rather than try to stop the ball that has momentum. It's easier and smarter to "steer" momentum than trying to "stop" it!

Sorry about the hi jack...........Great bull. haha


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

elk22hunter said:


> I still like the idea of giving out management tags to seniors and youth for 5 point on at least one side bulls. i don't like the allowing the spike hunters on the LE units to take out bulls before we know their potential. I am big on issuing more tags, just not more "any bull" tags.
> 
> +1 and thats why the age objective just keeps going up and up each year with the size going down and down. The older rags bulls are finally being harvested cause where getting low on BIG MATURE BULLS. The potential great genes that was being past down have gotten wipped out on the spike hunts. Lower the amount of "any bull tags" give out managment tags 5 point to 3 point RAG TAGS to take care of you opportunity guys. But then again I'm a size matters type of guy.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Like always we keep changing things before we see the final results. Management tags didn't last very long. Im not sure why we take the time to formulate a plan that we never follow. There was just to many bulls that had broken antlers that were being harvested. 

We hunt the biggest bulls in the rut when it's much easier to kill them and then we talk about the quality going down :roll: :roll: 

Can you imagine all the big bucks getting killed if we hunted them in November with a rifle? So why do we still allow bull elk hunted in the rut with a rifle?

Because rich people want the easiest way to kill a bull for their money. It's funny that the rich hunter that bought the AI tags gets to hunt earlier on Antelope Island than the lucky average joe.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't remember a time that I have agreed with you CS until now. haha

I am ALL for getting the rifle hunt out of the rut.


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## deerlove (Oct 20, 2010)

Elk 22 your SFW boys are driving the car they dont care whos in the back as long as there pitching in gas $. They'll lose too much $ to take the hunt out of the rut. Do you think if they did a poll on their website to all active members that would change? Neither do I.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

coyoteslayer said:


> Like always we keep changing things before we see the final results. Management tags didn't last very long. Im not sure why we take the time to formulate a plan that we never follow. There was just to many bulls that had broken antlers that were being harvested.
> 
> We hunt the biggest bulls in the rut when it's much easier to kill them and then we talk about the quality going down :roll: :roll:
> 
> ...


Education on what a rag bull is and what a big mature bull is thats broken. And your tellin me that I have to take the 2nd best buck off of AI thats a crop of ....


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

elk22hunter said:


> .......I still feel that the sportsmans voice is being heard by the DWR, the wildlife board and the boys on capitol hill........


I would like to know that number. What is the number of sportsman being heard? How many individuals are being heard?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

pheaz said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > I still like the idea of giving out management tags to seniors and youth for 5 point on at least one side bulls. i don't like the allowing the spike hunters on the LE units to take out bulls before we know their potential. I am big on issuing more tags, just not more "any bull" tags. We are universes apart on this, 22. I am of the opinion that simply giving out more permits to less effective weapons and moving the rifle hunt OUT of the rut will allow the 'inferior' bulls to be culled from the herd w/o forcing hunters to by-pass ANY bull they desire to kill. I am not a big fan of spike tags, but until the 'trophy hunters' stop the inane quest for 400" bulls at all costs, there isn't much else that can be done. Management hunts are a recipe for failure form the get go. Expecting hunters to know the age of a bull is beyond nonsensical.
> ...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > .......I still feel that the sportsmans voice is being heard by the DWR, the wildlife board and the boys on capitol hill........
> ...


No where near as great as the Don would like you to think...... :O•-:


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> pheaz said:
> 
> 
> > elk22hunter said:
> ...


We aren't Universes apart on this.........I would welcome more archery tags, not so sure on the muzzle loader however. Get the rifle hunt out of the rut would make more hunters have to choose a weapon like archery during the rut or rifle without. I don't mind saving 1 or two hunts in the state for rifle rut. That area would become a big waiting list area and am not really for it but spreading the wealth is ok by me for those guys who really aren't great hunters. 

I looked up the hunter success rates on the SJ for the years 06, 07, and 08 from huntin' fool. muzzle was around 97% for the three years combined. Early any weapon was about 92% for the three years combined. Any weapon late was 60% and Archery was 42%. Archery had 29% in 06, 81% in 07 and 68% in 08. Archers CAN put a dent in it on some years and get beat up on others.

I am not a managemnt hunt kind of guy for all accross the board but do like the idea of a management hunt for Seniors and youth. They have to be guided by someone who has passed the mandatory course or a guide who is doing his DH hours and has passed the course on "what consitutes a management bull". I don't care if it's a 380 bull or a rag as long as it has 5 points on one side and I really don't care if it is broken. Give these old timers a chance at killing a nice bull and have put in for years without drawing. To tell them that they could draw but would have to take up archery would be wrong and mean.

The thing is, plans like this are what "I" feel is a good idea. There is bound to be someone reading this statement and absolutely hates it. That is why it is difficult to have all voices heard and especially acted upon. I still feel that it is better to try to steer a run away bus from the inside than try to stop it by standing in front of it.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Huntoholic said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > .......I still feel that the sportsmans voice is being heard by the DWR, the wildlife board and the boys on capitol hill........
> ...


I guess no anwser to the questions, huh?


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> Huntoholic said:
> 
> 
> > elk22hunter said:
> ...


Oh sorry, I got side tracked. The truth of it is, I have NO idea! I believe that there were about 5,000 sportsmen on the capitol steps for the kick off. I imagine that number grew to huge amounts and I don't know what numbers have joined or left or any of that. I am not a numbers guy but Pro would most likely have those since he is a numbers guy. The fact is that you will never know how many people feel like "YOU" do. (that meaning all of us) We all have different oppinions such as I would rather hunt in other states to fill my need for a branch antlered bull and when someone in my friends or family group draws a great tag, I can go along and assist and still get my fix. I had lived in Utah my entire life and hunted Elk 3 times. Twice for archery spikes and once for my draw tag after 17 years. I am content with it like that as I want to keep Utah as a trophy state. Many are not. If I were to go to SFW and voice my opinion and they took it to the board, who really knows how many "sportsman voices" are being heard. If someone said that they don't care if they EVER have a shot at a mature 6 year + bull and are simply wanting to just hunt Elk EVERY year, and SFW took it to the board, then MY voice would not be heard. All that I am saying is that SFW spoke my voice for quite some time. Ya, they missed my thoughts on a few things and still do but I am definately not against them getting tags to sell for major amounts of dollars that many feel we gave up, to in turn fund nearly a million dollars worth of programs that directly help our herds grow.

I realize that I am the minority in this group. I am ok with that too. I am not going to change my mind to hunting rag bulls and spikes because that seems to be the norm on the forum. Different strokes for different folks.

Most of the people on here don't have a clue about all of this but jump right in un educated. Pro is the only guy that I have seen know both sides and be so adoment that they are now wrong when for so many years felt they were so right. I listen to him because he usually makes sense and doesn't wave like the grass in the wind like so many others do. I don't see eye to eye with him on a few things including paints vs. QH. He knows that I am pationate about my opinions as I know that he is about his. Still friends? Yes! This is not about SFW is a tag *****. This is about getting your voice heard and I feel that mine for the most part is.

Its funny how if the DWR makes a decision that seems to be so right, they get the credit but if they make the wrong decision, it is because they were manipulated by SFW and their money. Example would be the "days allowed to hunt deer" this coming season. When I gave credit to the fact that Utah has so many Elk, was credited to SFW it was brought up that the reason is becasue the DWR implimented LE and I should get my facts straight. This years Deer dates and tag alotments has many angry and it is ALL due to SFW. Funny how that works huh?

I am NEVER looking for a fight and am not here. I just tell it like my minds eye see's it.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Let me just start out by saying I am not looking for a fight either. I know each one of us has different opinions on what is best and I can accept that whether we are talking about elk, deer or whatever wildlife.

One thing that I do know is that there are hundreds of thousands of hunters in Utah. I am one of those hunters. A hand full of special groups that represent a few thousand of those hundreds of thousand is not the sportsman's voice in my opinion.

Now before somebody jumps my bones about jumping in with a group or showing up to RAC's or any of the rest of the crap that is thrown around, just let me say. Been there and done that. I just do not understand why my voice as an individual is not respected as the likes of the special interest groups. That part of the whole process I find disgusting. I as an individual should be able to write or show up to a RAC or what ever public meeting and have my opinion weighed with equal weight right along with everybody else. But I can assure you that is not the case. All you need to do is go to one of any of these meeting and my point will be proofed.

So unless one of these special groups has more that 90 thousand Utah Hunting members I personally don't think they speak for Utah hunters. I'm sorry but in this day and age we could put a quality question poll together and have every Utah hunter fill it out. We could post via the DWR website pros and cons to an issue before the poll went out. But I guess to do something like that we would have to not be afraid of the the results.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> Most of the people on here don't have a clue about all of this but jump right in un educated. Pro is the only guy that I have seen know both sides and be so adoment that they are now wrong when for so many years felt they were so right. I listen to him because he usually makes sense and doesn't wave like the grass in the wind like so many others do. I don't see eye to eye with him on a few things including paints vs. QH. He knows that I am pationate about my opinions as I know that he is about his. Still friends? Yes! This is not about SFW is a tag *****. This is about getting your voice heard and I feel that mine for the most part is.


 elk22, you are a good egg, even though you are cracked and slightly overcooked. :mrgreen: You are someone I hold in high regard, for many reasons some of which happen to relate to hunting but most are for reasons of more worthy purposes. 8)



elk22hunter said:


> Its funny how if the DWR makes a decision that seems to be so right, they get the credit but if they make the wrong decision, it is because they were manipulated by SFW and their money. Example would be the "days allowed to hunt deer" this coming season. When I gave credit to the fact that Utah has so many Elk, was credited to SFW it was brought up that the reason is becasue the DWR implimented LE and I should get my facts straight. This years Deer dates and tag alotments has many angry and it is ALL due to SFW. Funny how that works huh?


I can't/WON'T speak for others, but for me only. I rarely blame the DWR, as I believe they rarely get to implement policies that they believe would be biologically beneficial for wildlife. Instead, they are forced to adhere to policies set by the Wildlife Board which is heavily influenced by special interest groups, with one possessing more poll than all the others. The length of the deer hunt was reduced originally even though the DWR strongly asserted it would NOT accomplish the desired outcome(s). As for elk, the ONLY reason the bulls in Utah are of such high 'quality' is LIMITED harvest, which allows for bulls to reach peak antler growth rates. Managing elk is EASY, managing mule deer is NOT easy. Hence, the reason elk are doing relatively well despite inane management policies, while mule deer are limping along with reasonable management policies. And lastly, the DWR strongly OPPOSED the new mule deer management policies enacted last December, and ONE group was front and center supporting it, that's right.....SFW. The MDF did NOT support what was passed, although they for the most part sat on their butts and watched from the sidelines which is troubling in and of its self.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> The MDF did NOT support what was passed, although they for the most part sat on their butts and watched from the sidelines which is troubling in and of its self.


But not surprising to me at least. Sitting on the sidelines seems to be their MO. I have been at my wits end with them for 2 decades now.

And I think it should be pointed out that many of SFW's dollars have gone to habitat restoration that has served Elk quite well. Much to my chagrin.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Iron Bear said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > The MDF did NOT support what was passed, although they for the most part sat on their butts and watched from the sidelines which is troubling in and of its self.
> ...


Iron Bear here is the list that has served ELK quite well. :mrgreen: 
http://www.sfwsfh.org/documents/SFW_Con ... ummary.pdf


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

> elk22 wrote:
> I am definately not against them getting tags to sell for major amounts of dollars that many feel we gave up, to in turn fund nearly a million dollars worth of programs that directly help our herds grow.


how much money is going to help the herds grow?? why won't they open up their books in regards to the expo tag money? I AM DEFINITELY AGAINST GIVING TAGS AWAY WITH ZERO ACCOUNTABILTY/TRANSPARENCY.


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## IhuntThereforIAm (Apr 30, 2011)

coyoteslayer said:


> Because rich people want the easiest way to kill a bull for their money. It's funny that the rich hunter that bought the AI tags gets to hunt earlier on Antelope Island than the lucky average joe.


Just because you have the financial stability to afford to hunt during premium times doesn't mean it's any easier and/or just a shooting/killing exercise. You are way off base and you just sound jealous. These so called "rich hunters" do more for conservation then just "killing when its easiest".

If an individual can afford to buy a conservation tag like the Antelope Island and spends $250K plus that goes towards conservation development, then why shouldn't he/she be able to hunt earlier?

Money doesn't buy animals, it buys the opportunity.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

IhuntThereforIAm said:


> Money doesn't buy animals, it buys the opportunity.


 But, when that opportunity is on a 100% success rate hunt....they are essentially buying the animal. The Antelope Island fiasco is NOT a hunt, it is no better (I contend far worse) than the longhorn hunt being debated on another thread. At least that hunt is for a mobile impaired hunter.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

IhuntThereforIAm said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > Because rich people want the easiest way to kill a bull for their money. It's funny that the rich hunter that bought the AI tags gets to hunt earlier on Antelope Island than the lucky average joe.
> ...


 :O||:Welcome to the forum..


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> A lot of scouting this year paid off. He got this bull yesterday morning. The bull came in running to the call.
> 
> What do you think he scores?


341 2/8


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