# What If You Owned Land on a Trout Stream?



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

As a non-resident I hesitate to say much about HB 187, but I fish Utah as much as Wyoming and have a little background on the matter growing up on a farm that had fishable waters. Also, annually I pick up litter on streams, both public and private, and am exposed to a "variety" of fisherman. 

I am glad the bill was defeated in it's last version, although I hope an amended bill goes through protecting landowners rights and privately-owned riparian areas.

OK opponents of HB 187, just say you owned some land on a great trout stream. Are you gonna let every Tom, Dick, and Harry on your land? 5 at a time? A 100? Where are you going to park them? You know if they have conceal carry permits, they can take firearms on your property. Can you force them to use biodegradable toilet paper? I'm not joking, think about it. Just say you owned the property, handed down from your great-great grand parents, had a few cows, grew up playing, and hunting and fishing on the stream banks. 

I doubt, and hope, the landowners will never give up. Given what I've observed out here even if the "sportsman" have the rivers and streams for awhile, they will screw it up, forcing legislatures to rule in the landowners favor.


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## F/V Gulf Ventur (Oct 8, 2007)

humm.... I didn't see work together to meet on common ground.

I vote --- "other"


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I probably wouldn't buy land that was easy for every Tom, Dick and Harry to access. If they are creative enough, and get to it legally, there isn't much I can do, other than walk out and ask him how the fishing is, and try to gain his respect so he will be an extra set of eyes and ears for me while on my property. 

I think that's the biggest problem with many of the landowners who have streams on their property. They have the misunderstanding that the water is "theirs", and theirs only, and they are upset that they didn't realize the water laws before they bought their little slice of heaven. Hell yes I'd be upset if I built a cabin right on the river and people were constantly fishing past my deck. But I would need to get over it real quick if I hadn't understood the laws prior to my purchase. Extension of a friendly hand would go a long way for many of the landowners.

You better believe I would police the area too. Some schmuck decides to litter and crap on my land, you better believe I will turn him in. But the guys who are respectful of the land around the water, who stay within their bounds, and act like all fishermen should, I would BS with them like I do anyone. 

Many of these property owners think their money can buy them anything they want, and unfortunately, that idea has carried on for too long. I'm glad the public has taken a stand, and stood up for what is rightfully theirs. If we expect it to stay that way, some clarification needs to be made, and we need to continue to stand up for ourselves, as well as the landowners by turning in violators.


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## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

I agree with F/V on this one. I think it is fair to say I would treat others anglers with as much respect as they show for my property and the resources. That has been my stance on this issue from the get go.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Good stuff boys.

It's just ethically proper to go up to the owner's house and offer a handshake, some conversation, hell, some elk jerky.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

I'd put a little parking lot down in one area with a deposit box and a couple carbage cans. I'd ask for a $3.00 per day per vehicle fee. Write your license plate number, name and address and add the $3.00, place it in the depsoit box. The money would go to help provide the garbage bags and maintenance for the area. If I lived there, I'd brush up on the hatches and have flies available to those who needed them (I know another money making venture). I'd have a picnic area and serve hot meals to the anglers in the colder months and maybe sandwiches in the summer.

I'd have an information board with the season schedule and ask that the anglers respect the days and weekends I closed it for family parties and such.

I don't know, I think it would be real fun to own and get creative with it.

I'd probably have more friends than I do now. Probably get up to 7 friends or maybe 8.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

HighNDry said:


> I'd put a little parking lot down in one area with a deposit box and a couple carbage cans. I'd ask for a $3.00 per day per vehicle fee. Write your license plate number, name and address and add the $3.00, place it in the depsoit box. The money would go to help provide the garbage bags and maintenance for the area. If I lived there, I'd brush up on the hatches and have flies available to those who needed them (I know another money making venture). I'd have a picnic area and serve hot meals to the anglers in the colder months and maybe sandwiches in the summer.
> 
> I'd have an information board with the season schedule and ask that the anglers respect the days and weekends I closed it for family parties and such.
> 
> ...


excellent post!


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

HighNDry said:


> I'd put a little parking lot down in one area with a deposit box and a couple carbage cans. I'd ask for a $3.00 per day per vehicle fee. Write your license plate number, name and address and add the $3.00, place it in the depsoit box. The money would go to help provide the garbage bags and maintenance for the area. If I lived there, I'd brush up on the hatches and have flies available to those who needed them (I know another money making venture). I'd have a picnic area and serve hot meals to the anglers in the colder months and maybe sandwiches in the summer.
> 
> I'd have an information board with the season schedule and ask that the anglers respect the days and weekends I closed it for family parties and such.
> 
> ...


That's good. I like a man with a positive attitude.

But it reminds me of some Eagles song ".......they call it paradise, I don't know why" blah, blah, blah..........The Last Resort


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

No buildings per say. Keep it as natural as possible. After I had the info and addresses of who used the area, I could send out a mailer early on in the season with what I expect from the users. It would have a calendar with dates of closure for family gatherings...it could really be fun.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

That is one aspect that Goober mentioned in the original post that I forgot to address: the parking. If I REALLY didn't want to put out the invitation to fisherman, I would do my best to keep things so they couldn't park. Fair enough, right? Make it enough of a hassle that they don't bother. But if a guy pulls over to the side of the road, and is careful not to break fences, or destroy plants and such, no big deal. The responsibility remains solely on the USER to be responsible. As a landowner, you just have to not harass the users.

That reminds me of another idea I had last summer when the Conaster case decision was handed down. Would it be too costly to institute an "Adopt-A-Stream" program, similar to what they do with our highways? If I owned property along a stream, and I knew it needed attention because of sloppy fisher-slobs, I would be open to a few individuals doing clean-up 2 or 3 times each summer. You would need to be careful about how many people trudged through the area, as to protect the fauna and flora, so limits would need to be set as to how many people work each time, but I think it would be a fantastic way to clean things up. Would a program like this be worth an extra buck or two on your license fees each year?


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

I thought there was an adopt-a-stream program? I swear I saw a sign somewhere???

I'll do some checking.

http://www.streamkeeper.org/

Found the above with a quick check.

http://rmwn.org/index.php?option=com_co ... &Itemid=45

And above.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

I locked it up.....the salesman that sold this land to my great, great, great grandpa said it would be our 'private' stream. And I have a deed to prove it !! Not only that, I have some cattle, horse's and sheep I wouldn't want anybody getting romantic with !! :evil:


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

One thing that some landowners have done for years is recruit help to keep an eye on things. A sportsman who uses a river, a campsite, whatever, as a matter of habit is very unlikely to be a trasher, a vandal or a troublemaker. He's easy to identify because you see him repeatedly. Strike up a conversation, explain your concerns, (which he probably shares), and offer him a little preferred status in exchange for his assistance. There's no reason why a sportsman can't initiate the conversation, either.

Not long ago, this was pretty much how things were between most landowners and sportsmen in Utah. Antagonism, all this "them" vs. "us" stuff, isn't constructive or necessary. People can come to good faith understandings without government meddling as an intermediary, and that includes the DWR.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Well, there's a sucker born everyday...one that buys...and one that sells.
At least that's what my pa told me.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I've been thinking about this for awhile. I'll be honest, If I lived in Utah or Southwest Wyoming and the Conaster rule stood I would just sell my property on the river. 

Geeze, I bought it so it would be mine, all mine, not open to everyone else. I think most people deep down would feel the same. It would be dumb to pay taxes on the land and maintain it, just so everyone else could use it as their own.


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## firemanbubba (Mar 6, 2009)

I would be willing to pay a dollar or two more on my license fees each year for an adopt-a-stream program. I have hunted in Wyoming for years growing up, and they have landowner coupons. The idea behind them is if the land owner let you hunt on the land and you tagged out, you filled out the land owner coupon that was on the tag. The land owner then was able to turn that in for money. I don't remember how much the coupon was for when they turned it in because I was only 14 at the time. Does anyone know if the state has looked into something like that? I think it would be great for areas were big land owners like Deseret have limited the the access to areas (i.e. the area above lost creek). I use to have a great time fishing that area as a kid in high school.

Has it ever been decided if the river boundary is the high water mark or do we need to be in the water? I am new to this site and think its a great!


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## Dead Drifter (Nov 22, 2008)

wyogoob said:


> I've been thinking about this for awhile. I'll be honest, If I lived in Utah or Southwest Wyoming and the Conaster rule stood I would just sell my property on the river.
> 
> Geeze, I bought it so it would be mine, all mine, not open to everyone else. I think most people deep down would feel the same. It would be dumb to pay taxes on the land and maintain it, just so everyone else could use it as their own.


I don't think you'd see all that much pressure depending on what type of river or stream went through the property. If it was property on the Provo River then you'd probably see anglers most of the time, but some places I just don't see anglers in the water all day everyday.

I know what you mean about being stingy, though. Brigham Young tried to keep all the people from coming into Utah and influencing his people, but in the end, they have been overrun and ended up breaking up his big territory of Deseret, which included parts of Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona and Nevada. He had to settle for the little portion known as Utah. Now, they want to take the rivers and streams away. What next, change the lifestyle of the people who settled here? Maybe tell them they need to change their liquor laws to be more accomodating to the people who are moving here? I don't know, where does it all end?


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> I've been thinking about this for awhile. I'll be honest, If I lived in Utah or Southwest Wyoming and the Conaster rule stood I would just sell my property on the river.
> 
> Geeze, I bought it so it would be mine, all mine, not open to everyone else. I think most people deep down would feel the same. It would be dumb to pay taxes on the land and maintain it, just so everyone else could use it as their own.


I fish a section of the Provo up by Woodland.
The River runs through a lot of back yards.
There are no signs to keep anglers out and as I wade through the River, I will see some of the owners and they will usually wave at me and ask me how the fishing is going.
Nice folks and and great attitudes towards the anglers.

Now the other side of the coin.

On the same stretch of the Provo, there is a section of land that is owned by an out of state banker.
He has this large section of land posted "No Fishing Keep Out" and he has hired people to guard this property and keep anglers out of the River.
No homes anywhere on this land and the River runs along the main road going to Wolf Creek Pass.
Fishing this stretch causes no damage to his land but because he bought the land he thought that he could keep us out of the River.
With the defeat of HB187, I will fish this section this summer and it will be very interesting to see what happens when I do.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

firemanbubba said:


> I would be willing to pay a dollar or two more on my license fees each year for an adopt-a-stream program. I have hunted in Wyoming for years growing up, and they have landowner coupons. The idea behind them is if the land owner let you hunt on the land and you tagged out, you filled out the land owner coupon that was on the tag. The land owner then was able to turn that in for money. I don't remember how much the coupon was for when they turned it in because I was only 14 at the time. Does anyone know if the state has looked into something like that? I think it would be great for areas were big land owners like Deseret have limited the the access to areas (i.e. the area above lost creek). I use to have a great time fishing that area as a kid in high school.
> 
> Has it ever been decided if the river boundary is the high water mark or do we need to be in the water? I am new to this site and think its a great!


An Adopt-a-Highway type stream program has been suggested by some. Get together, start a movement, bug your local DNR or legislatures.

Wyoming's landowner big game coupon program is quite successful.

We also have the PLPW (Private Lands Public Wildlife) program. Basically sportsman donate money to a fund. The money is doled out to landowners who provide fishing and hunting access to their property. All donations go to the landowners, not the Fish and Game Dept. Sportsman, many from out of state, donated about $850,000 to the program in 2008. And the Fish and Game Dept spent about $700,000 out of the General Fund to administrate the program that same year. The landowners, while making a few compromises with the Fish and Game, set the rules on how the access is to be regulated on their land.

PLPW is 10 years old now. I use it on the North Platte and the Ham's Fork. The hunting PLPW has been very successful, while the popularity of the fishing PLPW has leveled off. For various reasons, some of the landowners have backed out of the fishing access program.

see page 11 of: http://gf.state.wy.us/downloads/pdf/PLP ... rt2008.pdf


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Grandpa D said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> > I've been thinking about this for awhile. I'll be honest, If I lived in Utah or Southwest Wyoming and the Conaster rule stood I would just sell my property on the river.
> ...


Good luck with your venture. I hope you thank the landowner when you leave. I prefer to fish for pure enjoyment, not to prove a point.


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

I used to be able to fish it and the new, out of state, land owner took the river away from us without having the right to do so.
Will I be fishing it just to make a point?
No but it sure will be nice to get back on that stretch of river again.
There are some nice Browns in there.
I will respect the land and do nothing to cause damage to it.
I will enter and exit legally.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Grandpa D said:


> I used to be able to fish it and the new, out of state, land owner took the river away from us without having the right to do so.
> Will I be fishing it just to make a point?
> No but it sure will be nice to get back on that stretch of river again.
> There are some nice Browns in there.
> ...


Good luck, enjoy.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> Get together, start a movement, bug your local DNR or legislatures.


I will say that I was very disappointed in our DWR on this latest issue. I have always stood up for the DWR when people would bad mouth them on various issues. There are some really great biologists working for the dwr, too bad the people actually making the decisions over there have chosen their path when it comes to the river access issue.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

.45 said:


> I locked it up.....the salesman that sold this land to my great, great, great grandpa said it would be our 'private' stream. And I have a deed to prove it !! Not only that, I have some cattle, horse's and sheep I wouldn't want anybody getting romantic with !! :evil:


Good point, I guess you could also have some really mean dogs who have equal and rightful access to the river also :mrgreen:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> .45 said:
> 
> 
> > I locked it up.....the salesman that sold this land to my great, great, great grandpa said it would be our 'private' stream. And I have a deed to prove it !! Not only that, I have some cattle, horse's and sheep I wouldn't want anybody getting romantic with !! :evil:
> ...


I'm not so sure I like that idea. If I have the legal right to walk down .45's river, and have a concealed carry permit, I have the right to protect myself.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> I'm not so sure I like that idea. If I have the legal right to walk down .45's river, and have a concealed carry permit, I have the right to protect myself.


Not true !!!

Under the "No Trespassing" and "No Fishing" signs, in small print is "No Firearms"....

I hope to hell I can at least enforce that law !! :wink:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

.45 said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not so sure I like that idea. If I have the legal right to walk down .45's river, and have a concealed carry permit, I have the right to protect myself.
> ...


Good luck, try larger print, "No Firearms" signs get shot up first.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Yes- I would also vote "other" Some very good thought-
We owned land in Michigan- never turned anyone away from hunting- though we let them know where we would be. Also the Thunder Bay river went thru the land- never turned anyone away- Dad made a sign stating what he expected of those using it. We were only there maybe 4 weeks out of the entire year ( grouse/wood ****/deer and fishing)because it was a long ways from Ohio . It was pretty remote - we never had any abuse.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I didn't see a choice I agreed with either.... so, personally, I'd go down and try to contact every person that fishes the river through my property. They act like jerks, out comes the camera and the words, "Have a nice day, good luck with the fishing, I'll be watching". They flinch one iota out of their legal rights, pop, flash, then the cell phone comes out for a call to law enforcement. The guys who are nice, talk to me, treat me with respect get distance, probably some advice about what to use and where, and like somebody else said, probably a sandwich or whatever else I've got handy to help make their day a little more enjoyable. The guys that actually showed enough respect to come to my door and ask permission would get to pull into my driveway and probably get the easiest access to my property because they'd shown me they respect my right as a landowner to tell them I'd rather not have them there. I would only ask that if they do use my property, they come to my door and let me know they'll be there so it doesn't start happening with folks I don't even know. Again, its a respect thing. Show lots of respect and hopefully it'll be reciprocated. Act like a jerk, like the landowner owes you something and more than likely you'll get that attitude back tenfold.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I would welcome all to fish or hunt it.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> I didn't see a choice I agreed with either.... so, personally, I'd go down and try to contact every person that fishes the river through my property. They act like jerks, out comes the camera and the words, "Have a nice day, good luck with the fishing, I'll be watching". They flinch one iota out of their legal rights, pop, flash, then the cell phone comes out for a call to law enforcement. The guys who are nice, talk to me, treat me with respect get distance, probably some advice about what to use and where, and like somebody else said, probably a sandwich or whatever else I've got handy to help make their day a little more enjoyable. The guys that actually showed enough respect to come to my door and ask permission would get to pull into my driveway and probably get the easiest access to my property because they'd shown me they respect my right as a landowner to tell them I'd rather not have them there. I would only ask that if they do use my property, they come to my door and let me know they'll be there so it doesn't start happening with folks I don't even know. Again, its a respect thing. Show lots of respect and hopefully it'll be reciprocated. Act like a jerk, like the landowner owes you something and more than likely you'll get that attitude back tenfold.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> Riverrat77 said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't see a choice I agreed with either.... so, personally, I'd go down and try to contact every person that fishes the river through my property. They act like jerks, out comes the camera and the words, "Have a nice day, good luck with the fishing, I'll be watching". They flinch one iota out of their legal rights, pop, flash, then the cell phone comes out for a call to law enforcement. The guys who are nice, talk to me, treat me with respect get distance, probably some advice about what to use and where, and like somebody else said, probably a sandwich or whatever else I've got handy to help make their day a little more enjoyable. The guys that actually showed enough respect to come to my door and ask permission would get to pull into my driveway and probably get the easiest access to my property because they'd shown me they respect my right as a landowner to tell them I'd rather not have them there. I would only ask that if they do use my property, they come to my door and let me know they'll be there so it doesn't start happening with folks I don't even know. Again, its a respect thing. Show lots of respect and hopefully it'll be reciprocated. Act like a jerk, like the landowner owes you something and more than likely you'll get that attitude back tenfold.


Good stuff, Happy Birthday Riley.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> Good stuff, Happy Birthday Riley.


Thanks Goob.... either I reversed my birthday or the system has it confused.... my birthday isn't until November 3rd. Dustin also pointed that out to me. :lol:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> > Good stuff, Happy Birthday Riley.
> ...


Are you sure?

Hell, I wouldn't say anything, no one would know the difference. :?


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

i voted to let all fish and or (where applicable) hunt...just please "pack it in, pack it out" and there will be no problems. :wink:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

What if I fished 'your' stretch of river a few times a week and kept a limit of fish every time?


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> What if I fished 'your' stretch of river a few times a week and kept a limit of fish every time?


We would have coffee, tea perhaps, and some Danish. I would, in a polite, low key, yet riveting manner, convince you that coming on my property again would not be in your best interest.

An obligatory chat about politics and the price of a ton of hay would follow. And then I would allow you to use my phone to call a wrecker.


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## orvis1 (Sep 7, 2007)

The good thing is we have 1 more year of open access before the landowners and legislators shut this down. I will do nothing to violate the law and will do my usuall to pick up the trash others leave behind especially to kind landowners. The ones who want to freak out because I am fishing "thier water" I will not offer the same courtesy. As far as keeping or releasing fish should have no impact on your decision anglers are allowed to keep thier legal limit. I personally am a C&R guy but have zero issues with anglers that keep some for the fying pan, as long as they don't waste the wildlife.


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

First of all, if Tree came on my land the least of the concerns would be any trout he might keep.










Ultimately, if I wanted a private stretch of river I would be looking to buy land in a state where the law supported it. If I was buying riverfront property in Utah, I would know beforehand the public has an easement to use the waterway. This is no different than buying a house with a sidewalk through the front yard. There is no surprise when someone walks down it.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I like HighNDry's concept. A few years ago, we were "this close" to closing a deal for a couple hundred acres on the Smith River in Montana. We looked very close, into the idea of setting up a little access point, even with a few camp spots and a crapper. Our idea was, if people are going to access the water no matter what, we can control how they access it and do it in a positive way. 

That said, I would not do the same thing in Utah. Compared to our fellow mountain states, I've not seen any other place where the public fishing/hunting/camping resources are more abused and trashed than in Utah. I've fished extremely popular stretches of river in Montana and Idaho and been hard pressed to find any garbage at all. I've also been into remote mountain lakes in the High Uintas Wilderness and found so much garbage, it would take several trucks to pack it out. There is a sociology of entitlement and abuse of natural resources in Utah that I simply don't understand. 

So if I owned land in Utah with a stream on it, I'd do all I could to lock it up. Because I've seen how people here trash things. If I owned a piece of land in Idaho or Montana, I'd set up an access point and welcome people with my own set of expectations that I know would be followed. In our neighboring states, the negative reputation of Utahns rivals only that of Californians. And that is sad.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

So with that said, what can be done to change the UTARD mentality, not only here but in other states?


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

orvis1 said:


> The good thing is we have 1 more year of open access before the landowners and legislators shut this down.


I wouldn't bet on that. There's an excellent chance that an emergency legislative session will have to be called to deal with unresolved budget issues. All it would take is one newsworthy conflict, just one, between landowners and sportsmen between now and then to bring the issue back to the table at that emergency session. "Fisherman shoots family dog"...that would do it.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> What if I fished 'your' stretch of river a few times a week and kept a limit of fish every time?


There not my fish they are the sportsman fish. So injoy and it just not my spot you are ruining. You will be ruining your owen spot and other to but thay would be your choice.I could not stop you. All i could do was give you some vice.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I still think this is a good program, not perfect, but better than just sitting on your hands:

Wyoming has the PLPW (Private Lands Public Wildlife) program. Basically sportsman donate money to a fund. The money is doled out to landowners who provide fishing and hunting access to their property. All donations go to the landowners, not the Fish and Game Dept. Sportsman, many from out of state, donated about $850,000 to the program in 2008. And the Fish and Game Dept spent about $700,000 out of the General Fund to administrate the program that same year. The landowners, while making a few compromises with the Fish and Game, set the rules on how the access is to be regulated on their land.

PLPW is 10 years old now. I use it on the North Platte and the Ham's Fork. The hunting PLPW has been very successful, while the popularity of the fishing PLPW has leveled off. For various reasons, some of the landowners have backed out of the fishing access program.

see page 11 of: http://gf.state.wy.us/downloads/pdf/PLP ... rt2008.pdf


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> orvis1 said:
> 
> 
> > The good thing is we have 1 more year of open access before the landowners and legislators shut this down.
> ...


 or... anglers leg amputated after stepping in Conibear 330 beaver trap landowner sets in public water running through private land. OUCH!


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## Guns and Flies (Nov 7, 2007)

...or, landowner threatens fishermen with shotgun; that would not surprise me. :?


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## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

You shouldn't. I've had it happen to me on the Platte between Grey Reef and Casper.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

HighNDry said:


> So with that said, what can be done to change the UTARD mentality, not only here but in other states?


That one is a mystery to me. It permeates fishing, hunting, camping, as well as city stuff. It is the "I have to beat you" mentality that has people weaving in and out of all lanes of traffic so I can pull up next to you and wait at the next light. It isn't about doing what's right in Utah, it is doing it "righter" than you are doing it. It isn't finding our own identity and understanding it, but it is about worrying about what everyone else thinks about us. I really don't get it.

But really - you guys who fish/hunt in other states - do you find the same thing I find?

I don't blame the land-owners here for not wanting fishermen on their lands. I see how trashed the public resources are and you have to assume the same will happen to your own lands. It is difficult to say it would be different when you see the reality of things.


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

Where ever you have a large population of people all competing for the same thing, you will have problems.

The Utah Wasatch Front is in this category in many aspects.
Our highways are over crowded, thus causing the road rage that we see.
Our recreational are also over crowded much of the time.
We are in competition with others in many of the things that we do.

Quite often, when someone feels that they have to fight for their space, it causes aggression.
In this mind set, people tend to become bitter and picked on.
In this mindset, some will do things to fight back, like trashing a place, cut fences, take over limits of fish, etc.
They feel that they are getting back at society, and the people that have caused their oppression.

This is not an excuse for their actions, but it is a justification in their minds.
This type of mentality will not go away, so it is up to the rest of us, to right their wrongs, and clean up after them.

People in this mind set are also the ones that justify their right to trespass on the property of others.
Yes, jealousy is also a big factor in this way of thinking.
Again, we can't stop these people from doing the wrong things that they do but we can do our best to counter their actions by being good stewards of the land and respecting property owners that we come in contact with.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Grandpa D said:


> This is not an excuse for their actions, but it is a justification in their minds.


I've tried that Grandpa D. That excuse doesn't fly well around here, regardless of what situation you apply it to. 8) I do agree with your points though.... I think that most who are committing the vandalism are striking out at what they see as some sort of entitlement that they're not being granted access to. Its ridiculous because its not the case at all but the "haves vs have nots" mentality is what keeps the whole feud going and nobody winds up benefitting from it, but it'll eventually turn the tide in the landowners favor as far as legal support goes.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

The only thing I have heard from fly shops in other states is that Utah anglers are tight with their money, they come to the shops looking for ideas and information but do not drop any money.

I've heard that as the excuse many of the retail outfits are not participating in the ISE anymore.

I would imagine with the economy the way it is this is going to get worse. I know I don't have the dough to throw around.

I also think we (Utahns) have a sense of "hey, we came here for freedom and settled this land (or my forefathers did), who are ______ (fill in the blank) to tell me where I can go and what I can do? "Build up a fence to keep me out, or to keep Mother Nature in, I'll tell it to your face...your some kind of sinner! ...Do this, don't do that, can't you read the sign?"


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks for getting that song stuck in my head.... :lol:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

"Bring in Goob and his cousin Bobby Ray from Illinois for a weekend and remove all the fish."


What the ? ......I don't have a cousin named "Bobby Ray".


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## MN transplant (Jan 4, 2009)

I would post no tresspassing signs along "MY" property, but would not hinder access from a valid public point. I would also probably post "pack in, pack out" signs along the stream or something to the effect of picking up your trash...and others. I'm sure most of us do that anyways, but there are a few who ruin it for the rest and a friendly reminder may be warranted.


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