# Interesting 2012 LE archery elk harvest numbers



## goofy elk

Some interesting 2012 limited entry archery elk harvest numbers..
First, the really tough ones.

Unit ----Number of hunters afield/successful hunters---Percentage successful
3003
Cache, Meadowville -------12-------------0-----------0%

3004
Cache, North-------------22--------------1-----------5%

3008
Fillmore, Oak Creek South--5--------------0-----------0% (no longer a LE unit)

3012
Mt. Dutton----------------31-------------6-----------17.9%

3013
Nine Mile, Anthro----------4--------------0-----------0% (zero LE bow kills in 2 years)

3002
Book Cliffs, Little Creek (roadless)--16----3---------20% (down from 42.1% succ,2011)

3014
North Slope, Three Corners----12---------1------------8.3%

3017
Paunsaugunt--------------17-------------2------------14.3%

3007
Central Mountains, Nebo-----32-----------5------------14.8%

3011
Monroe---------------------11-----------4-----------36.4% ( Down from 83.3% 2011)

Some others doing much better
3006
Central Mountains, Manti----95------------39----------41.2%

3009
Fillmore, Pahvant-----------19-------------8-----------44.4%

3018
Plateau, Boulder/Kap--------22------------15----------68.2%

3020
San Juan-------------------21------------12----------55%

3023
Wasatch Mountains---------189-----------62----------32.7%

Sorry if I missed your favorite, What do you think?


----------



## hockey

*Re: Interesting 2012 LE archery harvest numbers..*

Exactly why the DWR should be giving out many more archery tags than they currently do. They could cycle 100's even 1000's more hunters thru the point system with little or no impact on number of bulls killed


----------



## Broadside_Shot

What about the fact that there are "Archery Spike Hunters" now hunting these units. More people in the field, elk are more nervous, less elk killed. Just a thought :?


----------



## martymcfly73

Wonder if the weather played into it? It was hot clear until Oct.


----------



## goofy elk

martymcfly73 said:


> Wonder if the weather played into it? It was hot clear until Oct.


I've been studying harvest stats for almost 20 years now...

LE archery elk harvest success rates have steadily declined for 7-8 years now...

Although, there is fluctuation, and slight rises here and there, the overall
trend in success percentages has been downward.........

Then ,slap on top of that a 5 year waiting period, and its no wonder these
permits are getting easier to draw every year....

Even the Wasatch and Manti can be drawn now with 5-6 points.....
And trending down as well.....Which is GOOD, if your a bow guy 

BUT DONT try to blame it on the full moon, weather, or hunt dates,
Because, thats not the case.


----------



## hockey

goofy elk said:


> BUT DONT try to blame it on the full moon, weather, or hunt dates,
> Because, thats not the case.


Goof, that's funny you said this. It seems like every year if its not the heat, its the moon, if its not the moon it's the rain, etc, etc, etc


----------



## itchytriggerfinger

My brother did archery la Sal. We had 3 super close encounters but couldn't seal the deal on 6 point bulls. I think more tags for le bulls can be given out and not hurt the herd. The other 3 hunts still had 65%+ harvest rate. The elk were/are there. Archery is just harder


----------



## stablebuck

southern Utah was VERY wet thru the archery hunt...sitting water was not as productive as many hunters had hoped before the rut started to kick in. spike/cow hunters have been hunting LE units before this last year so that doesn't have anything to do with it. I think it has more to do with people flocking to the archery hunt thinking it's gonna be easier than it really is. More inexperienced tag holders going after the same animals = lower success rates...it's a no-brainer...


----------



## utaharcheryhunter

Exactly stable.. right on the money..


----------



## jahan

goofy elk said:


> martymcfly73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder if the weather played into it? It was hot clear until Oct.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been studying harvest stats for almost 20 years now...
> 
> LE archery elk harvest success rates have steadily declined for 7-8 years now...
> 
> Although, there is fluctuation, and slight rises here and there, the overall
> trend in success percentages has been downward.........
> 
> Then ,slap on top of that a 5 year waiting period, and its no wonder these
> permits are getting easier to draw every year....
> 
> Even the Wasatch and Manti can be drawn now with 5-6 points.....
> And trending down as well.....Which is GOOD, if your a bow guy
> 
> BUT DONT try to blame it on the full moon, *weather*, or hunt dates,
> Because, thats not the case.
Click to expand...

Weather is the biggest factor out their IMO. So yes it can be blamed on weather, not saying that is the issue this year, just saying it is a very valid argument.

I personally think elk are adapting more to all the hunting pressure and getting smarter. I use to see elk out in clearings every morning where I hunt, now they are back in the thick cover before sunrise due to the pressure. There are a lot of factors, elk numbers have been climbing.


----------



## blazingsaddle

I also believe that overall recreating has increased during this time of year as well. There seems to be more people in general in the mountains. Not just hunters, but hikers, campers, ATVers, lesbian jamborees (true story), etc. This absolutely has an effect on wildlife.

Goofy said that the decline started about 7-8 years ago, wasn't this about the time the "hoochie mama" graced the hunting world? Coincidence? Seems like every bow hunter I run into thinks they can call elk. With all the hype and commercialization of elk hunting, everyone wants to fit the mold of the portrayed badass elk hunter. When the truth is hardly any of them have any real elk experience. On the other token, how does the average Utah archer get real experience hunting bull elk when its so hard to get a tag?
I do also wonder how many of these hunters that come home empty, passed on shooting bulls that were not big enough?


----------



## martymcfly73

Hmmm maybe ill buy me a bow thing and a call and draw me a tag. I have 7-8 points. Bowhunting can't be that hard.


----------



## c3hammer

I'd have to agree with stablebuck. The pool of long term hard core archers is starting to thin from drawing out already. A larger majority of the LE archery permits every year now are going to folks who haven't traditionally chosen to hunt with a bow. This trend will probably continue for the next 10-15 years until the bulk of the hard core bow hunters who have already drawn once and aren't dead yet, come around with enough points to be back in the game 

Cheers,
Pete


----------



## 2full

Spike/Cow tags have killed LE Archery. I helped a friend of mine on one this year. It was A JOKE. Between the spike/cow hunters, and the deer hunters everywhere we tried to set up and hunt there was people. I had the same tag 12 years before, when there was no spike/cow tags. Had a blast and a great hunt. 
I am there with points to draw again, but I won't waste them on a LE archery tag. Would just be a waste of time and be total frustration. 
I helped another friend on the same unit with a muzzle elk tag 3 years ago and thought that was crowded with just the deer hunters, but it was heaven compared to the archery tag.


----------



## elk22hunter

Thanx Goofy for taking the time to post these and do a few comps from last year. Very helpful.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Ive said it over and over. You over kill from both ends and something is going to give. It looks like there is simply not as many bulls in some of these units as there used to be. 

Then throw in the fact the le archer has to compete with spike archers and le rifle hunters blowing calls out scouting it leads to less success. Too bad because it is pretty much a oil tag. 

On one hand i hope the unsuccessful trends continue because i should be in the elk pool next year. When people see those stats the switch to smoke poles and rifles giving me a chance.

On the other hand the trend could very well be showing a loss in bulls so tag cuts across the board could be coming. Thus the reason I hate spike hunting! I believe spikes are a wasted resources!


----------



## Kevin D

The Cache/Meadowville unit may be somewhat unique in that it is primarily private land that you have to pay to access. I wonder how many of those 12 hunters that drew the tag paid the trespass fee to hunt where the elk actually hang out?? I'm guessing it is the lack of deep pockets more than anything else that limits success on that unit.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

take a look at the record books over the past several years. The number show a steady decline in B&C entries:
2001-10
2002-9
2003-10
2004-12
2005-18
2006-26
2007-9
2008-9
2009-12
2010-5
2011-5

While there are several things that factor into numbers going from a peak of 26 to 5 in a matter of five years is hard to ignore.


----------



## goofy elk

elk22hunter said:


> Thanx Goofy for taking the time to post these and do a few comps from last year. Very helpful.


Youre welcome 22,, This is only half of the picture though, 
Average age of bulls harvested (2012 ) will complete it...

I've been saying for a few years now, success rates will fall, averge age will follow.

This will be the determining factor as to how many bull permits will be issued
for the 2013 season.


----------



## goofy elk

swbuckmaster said:


> Ive said it over and over. You over kill from both ends and something is going to give. It looks like there is simply not as many bulls in some of these units as there used to be.
> 
> On the other hand the trend could very well be showing a loss in bulls so tag cuts across the board could be coming. Thus the reason I hate spike hunting! I believe spikes are a wasted resources!


BINGO! SW just answered the 64 thousand dollar queaston,,,= LESS BULLS :!:

Muleskinners numbers as well,,,,,,,SPOT ON :!:


----------



## Packout

Interesting numbers. I feel the SJ is 4x better than the Nebo and the Wasatch is 2x better than the Pauns. As the success rates indicate.



Mr Muleskinner said:


> take a look at the record books over the past several years. The number show a steady decline in B&C entries:
> 2001-10
> 2002-9
> 2003-10
> 2004-12
> 2005-18
> 2006-26
> 2007-9
> 2008-9
> 2009-12
> 2010-5
> 2011-5
> 
> While there are several things that factor into numbers going from a peak of 26 to 5 in a matter of five years is hard to ignore.


2001-2004 the average was 10. From 2007-2011 the average was 8. A difference of 2 per year. 2005-2006 was the anomaly at an average of 22-- twice as many as the years previous and 2.5x more than the following years. I'd wager that 2012 will put more animals in the books.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

We'll see.....I don't think that the numbers that I posted paint the whole picture. I haven't been studying numbers and trends for very long like some you. I think it is a mixed bag of some people finally drawing a tag and holding out for a real big bull and not be able to close deal and I also think that there is something to be said, as mentioned before that there may be some that are now drawing tags that have spent most of their lives hunting more spike and cows that have no real experience bringing in bigger bulls.

I don't think that is strictly a case that they are not out there because I still see those that know what they are doing being fairly consistent. All of that said I do believe that numbers can not be ignored. Are there less elk? I don't think so. Are there less big bulls? I think so. Are the bulls smarter than ever? Certainly. Are peoples expectations a bit high when drawing a LE tag? Probably. Are the hunters that are drawing the LE tags now less experienced overall? No idea. I can say for sure that I will be drawing a LE tag in the near future and I have been chasing cows more than most.


----------



## bowhunt3r4l1f3

Wow now I feel not as bad knowing I wasn't the only one to not fill my tag...


----------



## Packout

goofy elk said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ive said it over and over. You over kill from both ends and something is going to give. It looks like there is simply not as many bulls in some of these units as there used to be.
> 
> On the other hand the trend could very well be showing a loss in bulls so tag cuts across the board could be coming. Thus the reason I hate spike hunting! I believe spikes are a wasted resources!
> 
> 
> 
> BINGO! SW just answered the 64 thousand dollar queaston,,,= LESS BULLS :!:
Click to expand...

Yes, less bulls. But what do you do with the spike issue?

In 2011--
Wastach- 385 spikes killed. If we stop spike hunting= The unit has a 6 year old objective. 20% of spikes never reach maturity. .80 x 385 = approx 300 bulls. 300 bulls must be carried for an average of 6 years-- 1,800 additional bulls on the mtn. The Wasatch has a herd objective of 5,050 and is at or over objective (as per those who manage them). So if you want to carry 1,800 more bulls then you MUST remove 1,800 cows. Those 1,800 cows have 1,000+ calves every year. 1,800 cows is about 40% of the cow herd portion of the herd objective.

Manti- 380 spikes killed and a 6 year age objective. Again, we must carry 1,800 more bulls and lose 1,800 cows, which means we loose 1,000+ calves a year.

San Juan- 24 spikes killed and a 8 yo objective. Carry 20 or so bulls a year for 8 years = 160 more bulls. The unit has a population objective of 1,300 and is over objective. So we must kill 160 cows (20% of the cow herd) to allow us to carry the 160 additional bulls. We also decrease calf production by 100 per year.

Book Cliffs- 101 spikes killed and a 7.5 yo objective. 80 x 7.5 = 600 more bulls to carry. The BC herd objective is 7,500, but the herd is 3,000 under objective. This unit would not be effected by spike closure.

Do we allow spike hunting, which gives 20,000 hunters the opportunity to hunt, and save the cows OR do we kill the cows and save the bulls, and allow 2,000 more LTD hunters a year? I'd rather save the cows, but maybe that is my ranching background coming out. There is not an infinite number of elk we can have on our lands. Now change the herd objectives and you can carry more bulls without killing the cows.....


----------



## utaharcheryhunter

I have to agree with the posts that bring up the cow/ Spike issues, in 2010 I drew a tag Fillmore Oak Creek and there's not that many elk in that area at all.. all of the locals and others thought it was worth to go out and chase the very small elk herds and spook the herds.(seen it 1st hand) and ride 4 wheelers everywhere and it ruined a lot of the hunt. instead of going over to the the nicer neighboring areas. Now I can't blame the hunt on the spike/cow hunters I did miss one bull, but it make it so so much harder. The other BIGGER issue I had to deal with was the rifle guys coming in and hiking all over, bulging, putting up cameras the week before their hunt. I had 2 stands up, and multi times had guys walk in and "scout" on water holes that were bringing in elk everyday, and that ruined my evenings and mornings ALL OF THE LAST WEEK!! Which pissed me off so bad!!!! I always post how well Arizona does their hunt dates(and I always get Shiz for it) but it goes archery then muzzle then rifle. And they have time in between hunts.


----------



## bowhunt3r4l1f3

I have always wished Utah did their hunts in that format. Archery, Muzzy, Rifle. It just makes sense, I don't understand why muzzy would ever be after the rifle hunt.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Packout said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ive said it over and over. You over kill from both ends and something is going to give. It looks like there is simply not as many bulls in some of these units as there used to be.
> 
> On the other hand the trend could very well be showing a loss in bulls so tag cuts across the board could be coming. Thus the reason I hate spike hunting! I believe spikes are a wasted resources!
> 
> 
> 
> BINGO! SW just answered the 64 thousand dollar queaston,,,= LESS BULLS :!:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, less bulls. But what do you do with the spike issue?
> 
> In 2011--
> Wastach- 385 spikes killed. If we stop spike hunting= The unit has a 6 year old objective. 20% of spikes never reach maturity. .80 x 385 = approx 300 bulls. 300 bulls must be carried for an average of 6 years-- 1,800 additional bulls on the mtn. The Wasatch has a herd objective of 5,050 and is at or over objective (as per those who manage them). So if you want to carry 1,800 more bulls then you MUST remove 1,800 cows. Those 1,800 cows have 1,000+ calves every year. 1,800 cows is about 40% of the cow herd portion of the herd objective.
> 
> Manti- 380 spikes killed and a 6 year age objective. Again, we must carry 1,800 more bulls and lose 1,800 cows, which means we loose 1,000+ calves a year.
> 
> San Juan- 24 spikes killed and a 8 yo objective. Carry 20 or so bulls a year for 8 years = 160 more bulls. The unit has a population objective of 1,300 and is over objective. So we must kill 160 cows (20% of the cow herd) to allow us to carry the 160 additional bulls. We also decrease calf production by 100 per year.
> 
> Book Cliffs- 101 spikes killed and a 7.5 yo objective. 80 x 7.5 = 600 more bulls to carry. The BC herd objective is 7,500, but the herd is 3,000 under objective. This unit would not be effected by spike closure.
> 
> Do we allow spike hunting, which gives 20,000 hunters the opportunity to hunt, and save the cows OR do we kill the cows and save the bulls, and allow 2,000 more LTD hunters a year? I'd rather save the cows, but maybe that is my ranching background coming out. There is not an infinite number of elk we can have on our lands. Now change the herd objectives and you can carry more bulls without killing the cows.....
Click to expand...

Packout this is where utah misses and most on this forum miss the boat. If utah took the rifle out of the rut and turned the spike tags into archery tags like Arizona you could have quality and keep the herd at objective. Archers simply dont take the top end bulls very often especially if they hunt it more frequently.

Butt o no we need to easily kill the top end bulls on a turkey shoot and wonder what happend to the quality. Then kill the recruitment bulls with a one or two day hunt as well.

Screw these spike hunts. Its a wasted resource! Id say 10 out if 10 guys would rather shoot a rag-300" every other year then oil not so big bull and spike tag every year.

Thats my story and im sticking to it. Az already proves it works.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Is it possible that we stock piled bulls, creating less harvest and pressure for several years with very restrictive permit allocations? Has it finally caught up?

It seems to me that the relative number of permits vs. elk population has definitely increased, but did we give the public unrealistic expectations by heavily restricting harvest and creating a surplus of very large/old animals that couldn't be sustained unless we kept LE permit numbers extremely low?

I can't imagine what the future might hold for new hunters and low point holders if we went back to, say, 2002 permit allocations.

I like the idea of keeping a handful of premium units, keep age objectives high and nix spike hunting on them. Say SJ, SW desert, Monroe and Beaver. Keep all of the other units around 5 yr. old age objectives. These units will still hold some large, 350+ bulls, but probably see lower success rates and lower age harvest.

This way (or something similar) those who are willing to wait 15-20 years for a crack at an archery monster get their option and the others who, with a bow, want to hunt more frequently with lower success rates can have their options as well.



It seems like this would be conducive to DWR surveys that have been conducted.


----------



## svmoose

Pull the butt plug and move the rifle out of the rut. Put the spike archery hunters at current dates and move the LE archery guys from September 14th through the end of the month. Don't do it on every unit, or transition it over time so those folks who've got 12+ points and are waiting for a rifle rut hunt can still do it. You can give out twice as many rifle elk tags with half the success. 

Keep muzzy at primitive or stay limited by not allowing glass on front loaders. Or give them the late hunt.

Archery success will stay about the same, Rifle success will go down, muzzleloader success will be about the same.

It's not rocket science, and would move some of these units that take 13 years to draw down a few years. Archery might be a little tougher to draw, but it will all even out in the end.


----------



## goofy elk

swbuckmaster said:


> [
> Packout this is where utah misses, and most on this forum miss the boat. If utah took the rifle out of the rut and turned the spike tags into archery tags like Arizona you could have quality and keep the herd at objective. Archers simply dont take the top end bulls very often especially if they hunt it more frequently.
> 
> Screw these spike hunts. Its a wasted resource! Id say 10 out if 10 guys would rather shoot a rag-300" ..


I agree 100% and would support this change.


----------



## Packout

SW- I was just commenting on the current system and how simply stopping spike hunting isn't the answer. I see where you are coming from, sort of. I think your idea is a fine one, as long as everyone understands that archery pressure will go up, success rates will probably go down, and they will still be waiting 2-5 years between tags if there is no waiting period. Just because we saved the spikes doesn't mean the archers will get those surplus bulls. The spike hunt provides rifle hunters with 14,000 or so permits a year, they aren't going to sit back at home while archers use the resource they once used.

Tree- I think you are correct in your assumptions. The part I may waffle on is the low herd objective units, with high age objectives seem to always carry so many bulls they hurt the productivity of the herd because we have to kill cows to stay within the herd objective. The Management hunt was implemented to kill bulls and now the spike hunt is there to kill bulls-- which saves cows. We went through this problem on the SJ, SWDes, etc and I'd hate to see us right back there in 5 years.

Interesting discussion. 2 reasons why the rifle elk hunt will never be fully removed from the rut in Sept-- Conservation Permits and the value difference between having the hunt mid-Sept vs mid-Oct. --Hunters who have invested 15 years of waiting to hunt a rut-rifle bull. Like it or not those are the realities I see.


----------



## stablebuck

I think a big number to remember is that the whole plan that was put into motion 3 years ago hinges on the state elk population reaching 80K animals...if that number isn't reached then Goofy you will get your tag cuts. Unfortunately, I don't think any of the other ideas (even though I am a huge fan of re-positioning the seasons to limit the harvest on the rifle hunt) will ever be considered in the near future. The spike/cow hunt won't be changed since it is the substitute for the struggling deer numbers.


----------



## wileywapati

Tag cuts are going to come once age classifications are met. Correct me if I'm wrong Mike
but the reason they were so liberal with permits in the past is because almost all units are way over age objective. 

Once these units fall in line with the age classes per unit, tags will dry up or plateau.


----------



## goofy elk

Wiley is right, age objectives is the diving factor for LE bull permits.

80k elk has nothing to do with LE bull elk permit numbers what so ever.


----------



## stablebuck

goofy elk said:


> Wiley is right, age objectives is the diving factor for LE bull permits.
> 
> *80k* elk has nothing to do with LE bull elk permit *numbers* what so ever.


they must have been lying to us all at the RAC then...so remind me how you get older elk??? I'm pretty sure you have to have more elk in general to get more older elk and maintain the tag numbers. The only way to get more older elk without "having" more elk is to cut tags...............which is exactly what I said.


----------



## goofy elk

Dude,
Don't matter whether there are 60K elk or 80k elk......statewide.

Bull elk are managed BY unit , AND age objective. NOT herd size,
OR bull to cow ratios :!: 

LE bull elk permit numbers, on individual units, will increase, OR decrease, depending 
on the previous years average age of the bulls that were harvested, on THAT 
particular unit...


----------



## stablebuck

I am well aware of all of that...anyhow...
So Goofy...your position is that tags need to be cut now based upon harvest success rates?


----------



## goofy elk

Stable, it's clear you do not understand Utahs DWR elk managment plan...

How it works, OR how age objectives are the PRIMARY factor in permits issued.

I'm not calling for tag cuts, simply pointing out what is going to happen...per the EMP.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Goofy thats one reason i would rather have a straight bull cow ratio then age objectives. It makes things so much easier. 

I honestly think the division has over estimated the elk population on purpose. Then issued more cow permits on purpose. They want to shoot the elk numbers down so they can start stock pilling bulls again.


----------



## goofy elk

From the DWR elk management plan:

Strategies:
a.
Provide varied levels of limited entry elk hunting quality by maintaining 4 categories of age class harvest objectives (Table 1).
b.
Achieve an average age of harvested bull elk within established objectives on all limited entry units to assure a balanced and diverse age structure of the bull segment in the population.
1.
Accurately monitor the age of harvested bull elk by collecting a statistically valid sample of teeth from all seasons on all limited entry units. Provide incentives to encourage hunters to submit teeth or implement mandatory tooth submission if necessary.
2.
Recommend limited entry bull permits on each unit based on an average of the last 3 years of age data; increasing permits on units above objective and reducing permits on units that fall below objective.c.
On limited entry units, set permits for the 3 weapon types based on the following percentages: 25% for archery, 60% for rifle, and 15% for muzzle loader.
d.
On appropriate limited entry units, provide a late season rifle elk hunting opportunity that will reduce harvest rates and help increase future hunting opportunity. On these units, the percent of rifle permits in the early season rifle hunt will not exceed 65%.
e.
On limited entry units without a late rifle hunt, set permits for the 3 weapon types based on the following percentages: 30% for archery, 50% for rifle, and 20% for muzzle loader.

Stable, the red high light is for you...

Another issue here, DIRECTY effecting LE archery permit numbers,
Item E, Now that both the Wasatch and Nebo will now have late season rifle permits
beginning this year, (2013)... Both units will have to reduce LE archery tags to 25%,
and muzzle loader to 15%........................

Just a heads up for you guys applying for ML and bow tags on those 2 units..
There will be less tags available for the 2013 hunts...


----------



## wapiti67

I'm pretty sure the numbers are down on Dutton because I wasn't there to show people where the bulls are...Just look at the numbers on the Wasatch where I was hunting with my son...FACTS DON'T LIE!!!


----------



## stablebuck

goofy elk said:


> Stable, it's clear you do not understand Utahs DWR elk managment plan...
> 
> How it works, OR how age objectives are the PRIMARY factor in permits issued.
> 
> I'm not calling for tag cuts, simply pointing out what is going to happen...per the EMP.


You're right...I'm an idiot... :roll:


----------



## goofy elk

stablebuck said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stable, it's clear you do not understand Utahs DWR elk managment plan...
> 
> How it works, OR how age objectives are the PRIMARY factor in permits issued.
> 
> I'm not calling for tag cuts, simply pointing out what is going to happen...per the EMP.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right...I'm an idiot... :roll:
Click to expand...

Once again..The EMP is quite clear....

Achieve an average age of harvested bull elk within established objectives on all limited entry units to assure a balanced and diverse age structure of the bull segment in the population.
1.
Accurately monitor the age of harvested bull elk by collecting a statistically valid sample of teeth from all seasons on all limited entry units. Provide incentives to encourage hunters to submit teeth or implement mandatory tooth submission if necessary.
2.
Recommend limited entry bull permits on each unit based on an average of the last 3 years of age data; increasing permits on units above objective and reducing permits on units that fall below objective.c.

If you knew this, why the weird questons? fishing or what?


----------



## goofy elk

wapiti67 said:


> I'm pretty sure the numbers are down on Dutton because I wasn't there to show people where the bulls are...Just look at the numbers on the Wasatch where I was hunting with my son...FACTS DON'T LIE!!!


The last 5 years of LE archery success rates on Dutton:
2012 - 17.9%
2011 - 31.3%
2010 - 29.7%
2009 - 19.4%
2008 - 22.9%

Last 5 years of LE archery success rates on the Wasatch:
2012 - 32.7%
2011 - 28.8%
2010 - 34.8%
2009 - 36.3%
2008 - 23.5%

The Wasatch LE archery has been very consitent for 5 years percentage wise..
IMO, It is unfortunate that LE archery permits will be reduced per the EMP
due to the fact a late rifle hunt will now be in place during 2013 season on ward.
The addition of a few late season (Nov) rifle permits will be detromental
to this unit...I personaly wish they would have not done this on the Wasatch
OR the Nebo units.


----------



## swbuckmaster

+1 goofy with the late permits. Those are going to be another nail in the coffin for the rest of the big bulls. I have no idea why they went to this.


----------



## proutdoors

goofy elk said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanx Goofy for taking the time to post these and do a few comps from last year. Very helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> Youre welcome 22,, This is only half of the picture though,
> Average age of bulls harvested (2012 ) will complete it...
> 
> I've been saying for a few years now, success rates will fall, averge age will follow.
> 
> This will be the determining factor as to how many bull permits will be issued
> for the 2013 season.
Click to expand...

A couple of points. While archery success rates have steadily decreased, muzzy and rifle success rates have stayed fairly steady. This calls into question, at least for me, on the validity of the theory of 'not enough bulls' available. Archery hunters success rates will ALWAYS decline when there is increased pressure on the game being hunted. More archery permits results in lower success rates in almost every scenario. Rifle and muzzy hunters seem less affected by increased hunter pressure.

As for worrying about harvest age averages declining.....I DETEST this management tool...! It is NOT an accurate indicator of the health of the herd, the number of mature bulls in the herd, nor the 'quality' of bulls in the herd. It only gives a skewed insight into the bulls killed, it tells us nothing about the bulls that are alive. Determining the number of permits based on previous harvest age averages in NOT using science, nor is it using common sense! Harvest age averages are good for one thing......boosting revenue via conservation permits.

What the data tells me: There is NO scientific reason to give only 25% and on a few units 30% of the total permits to archers. The more permits issues, the lower the success rates, thus the number of bulls killed by archers is pretty much the same regardless of the number of permits issued. The rationing of archery permits is purely social, or doen in the name of 'fairness'......which is a true indicator, IMHO, of the sorry state of game management in today's climate.....!


----------



## richardjb

Pro, can you give any credence to lesser experiened archers when less elk are taken? All the old pros are waiting to get back in the game?


----------



## swbuckmaster

richardjb said:


> Pro, can you give any credence to lesser experiened archers when less elk are taken? All the old pros are waiting to get back in the game?


There are no stats that would suggest this to be true. People draw tags with different points. So the experience level at any given time on a unit is all spread out. Besides new archers can sometimes be better archers. I know lots of younger guys that shoot way better than i do. Can some of these new archers take the time off necessary to be successful? I believe some can and some are in school and cant.

I believe economics are one of the driving forces to being successful with a bow. It simply takes more time and money. The economy has been in the tank. This makes it hard to take two weeks or more off work
Whats the average days to a successful bow hunter? My guess is 8-14 days hunting?

Then throw in the fact there are simply not as many bulls as there used to be on some of these units and it makes your chances with a bow go down.

Thats why i believe the archery success rates are in the toilet. However after saying all that. I do know some rifle guys that bailed because the wait was too long. These guys were novice bowhunters or guys that had never bowhunted before. A few of these guys had really high points and they all ate their tags.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

swbuckmaster said:


> Goofy thats one reason i would rather have a straight bull cow ratio then age objectives. It makes things so much easier.
> 
> I honestly think the division has over estimated the elk population on purpose. Then issued more cow permits on purpose. They want to shoot the elk numbers down so they can start stock pilling bulls again.


That's the problem. I don't think they are overestimating elk populations, but the fact of the matter is they have to stay near objective, or run the risk of being sued by stockmen, USFS etc. So, if they want to maintain higher age objectives, they have to cut bull permits. So if they can't kill bulls to stay under population objective, they have to issue cow tags. That's why we ended up with 1 to 1 bull to cow ratios on SJ and SWD. It's because their age objective was so high, they have to limit permits significantly to stay in range of that age objective.

So then we are left with high bull to cow ratios, which limits breeding stock, not to mention if they want to reduce bull to cow ratios, they end up issuing spike tags on these units.

As Packout explained in another thread, this is the primary reason they issued spike tags in all of these units.

I honestly think that a big reason that archery success rates have declined a bit _might_ be because the animals went from very light pressure, to a still light, but less so, amount of pressure. The elk _may_ not have been accustom to being hunted much, making harvest relatively easier. Now one must lean on woodsman-ship and skill a little more, the net result being a more difficult harvest.

I think back to the late 90's and early 2000's and look at some of the permit allocations, like the Fillmore Pahvant, Pilot Mt. and San Juan, who had zero spike pressure and just a handful of bull tags for a fair sized herd. These elk saw almost no pressure. There were a dozen or two elk hunters in the woods, spread out for a month and a half. Probably made the game pretty easy and one sided. This also created a scenario where we were stock piling older bulls, making harvest age higher and the B and C entries greater. When we started giving out more tags, because we actually saw fit to hunt the 70k elk we were stock piling, more of these stock piled bulls were killed, leave less inventory in the higher age classes. The only way to recreate this is to slash tags and worsen the Bonus point creep and traffic.

Why not get folks out there and let em hunt and place the burden of harvest on the hunter instead of the folks managing the elk?

How do we stack up against other states for harvest rates? Honest question. I haven't looked for awhile.


----------



## stablebuck

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Why not get folks out there and let em hunt and place the burden of harvest on the hunter instead of the folks managing the elk?


YES!


----------



## JuddCT

stablebuck said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not get folks out there and let em hunt and place the burden of harvest on the hunter instead of the folks managing the elk?
> 
> 
> 
> YES!
Click to expand...

Sometimes the answer is too obvious and easy that we don't want to accept it. We like controlling everyone's experiences to fit our own needs.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Agreed. I have never been in favor of lowest common denominator management with anything in life. No child left behind, giving preferential treatment to minority or women owned businesses......I believe in survival of the fittest. With my hunting experience I feel that the elk would agree.


----------



## walkalot

harvest numbers are declining because more and more kids are being brought up road hunting. if you cant shoot it from the road, 5 feet off the road, or standing in your truck bed, keep on driving, too much work otherwise!

haha i couldnt resist. i love road hunters for the fact they arent disturbing where i hunt, but hate them in the sense that i feel like they give the sport a bad name in many circumstances, not all.

i could be wrong though, lol. i had to make sure we were covering all possible reasons for lower harvest numbers :mrgreen:


----------



## Finnegan

proutdoors said:


> As for worrying about harvest age averages declining.....I DETEST this management tool...! It is NOT an accurate indicator of the health of the herd, the number of mature bulls in the herd, nor the 'quality' of bulls in the herd. It only gives a skewed insight into the bulls killed, it tells us nothing about the bulls that are alive. Determining the number of permits based on previous harvest age averages in NOT using science, nor is it using common sense! Harvest age averages are good for one thing......boosting revenue via conservation permits.


Well said and exactly right.

I'll also say that a consequence of our current "management" plan is an animal that is more wary. I've seen many threads in the past that were concerned about hunters educating elk by using poor calling practices. If that's a valid idea, then it must also be true that today's mature bulls are well-schooled and experienced in evading humans.

I ate my tag this year and that was entirely my own doing. But I also saw some behaviors that I've never seen before.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

> it must also be true that today's mature bulls are well-schooled and experienced in evading humans.


Exactly! This is why Goofys theory about elk populations and quality bulls holds ZERO water with me. They are out there, they're just getting really good at not getting killed or even seen.


----------



## goofy elk

TEX-O-BOB said:


> it must also be true that today's mature bulls are well-schooled and experienced in evading humans.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! This is why Goofys theory about elk populations and quality bulls holds ZERO water with me. They are out there, they're just getting really good at not getting killed or even seen.
Click to expand...

I'm out looking at winter ranges almost every day......what do you do all winter :?:

It's not a 'theory'..... :roll:


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

Yes it is.


----------



## goofy elk

I'll just keep throwing the numbers out on this forum til it sinks in  

The harvest percents,

The average age data for 2012 will be available in a few weeks...

The fly counts will all be available for the RAC/board meeting...

There will be tag reductions in the wake of all this....

And I'm going to keep throw'n it all right at ya TEX,,,HARD FACTs  

So be ready when it all go's down in a couple months :!:


----------



## JuddCT

goofy elk said:


> [quote="TEX-O-BOB":udm1qnd0]
> 
> 
> 
> it must also be true that today's mature bulls are well-schooled and experienced in evading humans.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly! This is why Goofys theory about elk populations and quality bulls holds ZERO water with me. They are out there, they're just getting really good at not getting killed or even seen.
Click to expand...

I'm out looking at winter ranges almost every day......what do you do all winter :?:

It's not a 'theory'..... :roll:[/quote:udm1qnd0]

You are looking in the wrong places. 

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=23946445&ni...ne-neighborhood&fm=home_page&s_cid=featured-4


----------



## martymcfly73

goofy elk said:


> I'll just keep throwing the numbers out on this forum til it sinks in
> 
> The harvest percents,
> 
> The average age data for 2012 will be available in a few weeks...
> 
> The fly counts will all be available for the RAC/board meeting...
> 
> There will be tag reductions in the wake of all this....
> 
> And I'm going to keep throw'n it all right at ya TEX,,,HARD FACTs
> 
> So be ready when it all go's down in a couple months :!:


You do that. Just because goofy says so, doesn't make it so. I have seen plenty of elk, good bulls no less on the wasatch.


----------



## stablebuck

Tex got his elk this year and he's put back together like Frankenstein's monster and was using a weapon straight out of the Genghis Khan display at the museum of natural history...the elk are there...the hunters just aren't as good and the elk are just as smart as they have always been. It's basic ecology...the prey adapts to survive and the predator has to adapt accordingly or it goes hungry (eats tag soup). The people who want to hunt the same mountain and use the same techniques as 10 years ago are the same people who want the success rates to be as high as possible the year prior before they even put in for a tag this year. Get a tag and go hunting for crying out loud...and if a 350 bull isn't good enough for someone...then nothing ever will be and there is no point even discussing this with that person...


----------



## klbzdad

The elk are getting smUrter. Being back in the trees, my group of guys and gals all noted last archery season that as soon as they could hear an atv or any other motorized heartbeat, the more mature animals reacted by moving away from the noise. Places I was accustomed to sitting and watching big bulls still had the big bulls, I just don't have a tag to take them. Goofy's numbers are honest but in all honesty, I buy my spike/cow archery tag every year to take cows. Tex is right....the big quality bulls are in there, just wiser. Maybe its a cycle of some sort and when they die of old age, the younger bulls hunters might be passing on will be dumber.


----------



## hossblur

First, and you all missed this?? Where was this lesbian jamboree you spoke of? Just curious. Got some new optics for x-mas.

Second, hell i can't remember I am stuck on lesbian jamborees.

Oh ya, I hunt the manti and I am quite shocked at the success number. If it is true you can throw out the non hunter pressure arguement, Sanpete markets themselve as the ATV capital of the world, and there are tons of them down there. It is also one of the most road accesible areas in the state. I believe the Manti is no where near where it was 10yrs ago, HOWEVER, it was the invention of the spike unit that made Manti a good(great years ago) elk unit. I would be hard pressed to believe that it is now hurting the unit that it made in the first place. The Manti is simply overtagged, and not just by the DWR, but every conservation banquet, and group has Manti tags.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

Goofy, give me all the stats, numbers, and harvest age reports you want, it doesn't mean squat. I refer you back to Pro's eloquent take on the DWR's skewed methods of herd management. Remember Goofy, $$$$$$$$ talks, Science and biology walks...

As for worrying about harvest age averages declining.....I DETEST this management tool...! It is NOT an accurate indicator of the health of the herd, the number of mature bulls in the herd, nor the 'quality' of bulls in the herd. It only gives a skewed insight into the bulls killed, it tells us nothing about the bulls that are alive. Determining the number of permits based on previous harvest age averages in NOT using science, nor is it using common sense! Harvest age averages are good for one thing......boosting revenue via conservation permits.


----------



## Groganite

Did they take this guy into account in there "herd count"? http://www.ksl.com/?sid=23946445&nid=14 ... featured-4


----------



## proutdoors

hossblur said:


> Oh ya, I hunt the manti and I am quite shocked at the success number. If it is true you can throw out the non hunter pressure arguement, Sanpete markets themselve as the ATV capital of the world, and there are tons of them down there. It is also one of the most road accesible areas in the state. I believe the Manti is no where near where it was 10yrs ago, HOWEVER, it was the invention of the spike unit that made Manti a good(great years ago) elk unit. I would be hard pressed to believe that it is now hurting the unit that it made in the first place. The Manti is simply overtagged, and not just by the DWR, but every conservation banquet, and group has Manti tags.


I disagree, the Manti was made "goor(great years ago) NOT because of the spike hunt. It was due to amny factors, but spike tags were way down the list. The first was a MAJOR increase in the elk population on the unit. Another was the closing of all bull elk hunts for several years. This helped the herd increase because the lek herd was lacking enough mature bulls to breed the cows. Spike tags are useful for HUNTER management, and when used correctly can also be an effective way to keep the bull population in check, so as to allow for older class bulls without being forced to carry such an excess of bulls to meet 'quality' demands. 
I also disgree with the assertion that the Manti unit is "overtagged". There is an abundance of elk, and mature bulls on this unit. I see a fair number of them EVERY day as they eat feed meant for my livestock......but that's another issue altogether.....


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

There isn't a unit in this whole state that is "overtagged". There are too many elk as it is across the board. This state is WAY to stingy with the elk permits they give. Add that to hunting them with rifles during the peak of the rut and you've got the standard SFW style management system. Less opportunity, with units managed for a surplus of trophy animals so the lucky few who draw tags and the rich can enjoy 90% success. LAME!!!


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Yea the rifle tag during the rut is enough to make me puke. I get pissed off every time I think about it.


----------



## goofy elk

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Yea the rifle tag during the rut is enough to make me puke. I get **** off every time I think about it.


Just so everyone knows and understands,
These September LE hunts continue because of hunter surveys ..

A couple years ago , results were overwhelming from a random survey conducted
by the DWR , of Utah license holders, to continue LE 'rifle' hunts in September....

NOTHING TO DO WITH SFW :!: ..........

Bullsnot, I believe you have these links on survey results we went over,
Could you please chime in here and post them up :?:


----------



## proutdoors

goofy elk said:


> [quote="Mr Muleskinner":mq5cjtak]Yea the rifle tag during the rut is enough to make me puke. I get **** off every time I think about it.


Just so everyone knows and understands,
These September LE hunts continue because of hunter surveys ..

A couple years ago , results were overwhelming from a random survey conducted
by the DWR , of Utah license holders, to continue LE 'rifle' hunts in September....

NOTHING TO DO WITH SFW :!: ..........

Bullsnot, I believe you have these links on survey results we went over,
Could you please chime in here and post them up :?:[/quote:mq5cjtak]
True enough, but ask any crack attic if they want crack to be easier to obtain and guess what they will say? Ask people on welfare if they want welfare to be taken away? Take ANY entitlement away, or ask if those sucking off the teat if they want to be weaned, and the majority will want to keep whatever entitlement you are threatening to take away. Also, I HATE surveys, the desired results is VERY easy to obtain based on what questions are asked, what questions/options are not offered up, and how the questions are put forth. Oh, and SFW has indeed had a major influence on the public view on game management. They are very good at putting forth hyperbole are facts, they indoctrinate hunters with fluff and BS.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

Yup! That's exactly the point Pro. LE does nothing but create a bunch of whiny, spoiled, entitlement complex havin hunters that expect a 100% success on 400 inch bulls in every unit because it took them 23 years to draw a tag. Hunting has morphed over the last 25 years into a whole different game. It's ever changing and NOT for the good thanks largely to the SFW model.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Bazinga


----------



## goofy elk

Your right TEX, It's NOT changing, at least for another decade or two,,,,IMHO.

Elk hunting will remain largely the same, for a long while...You can make the best
of it, OR just be miserable, and complain.... 

I'm going to use the angles I know, and make the best of it! and love it!

There has been a TON of surveys ran this year for deer, I personally cant
wait to see the results .. And see how it plays out in the next round of the RAC/Board..

Public input will play a strong roll in whats about to come.


----------



## 2:22

I went Elk hunting once. It was fun.


----------



## wileywapati

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Yup! That's exactly the point Pro. LE does nothing but create a bunch of whiny, spoiled, entitlement complex havin hunters that expect a 100% success on 400 inch bulls in every unit because it took them 23 years to draw a tag. Hunting has morphed over the last 25 years into a whole different game. It's ever changing and NOT for the good thanks largely to the SFW model.


What have I been telling you for the last 15 plus years????

This is the biggest pyramid scheme west of the Mississippi.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

2:22 said:


> I went Elk hunting once. It was fun.


Did you actually kill something, or watch one of your 12 kids do the shooting?


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

wileywapati said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup! That's exactly the point Pro. LE does nothing but create a bunch of whiny, spoiled, entitlement complex havin hunters that expect a 100% success on 400 inch bulls in every unit because it took them 23 years to draw a tag. Hunting has morphed over the last 25 years into a whole different game. It's ever changing and NOT for the good thanks largely to the SFW model.
> 
> 
> 
> What have I been telling you for the last 15 plus years????
> 
> This is the biggest pyramid scheme west of the Mississippi.
Click to expand...

15 years? I've been saying this since 1997... 

At least we agree on something...


----------



## 2:22

TEX-O-BOB said:


> [quote="2:22":26npjfmo]I went Elk hunting once. It was fun.


Did you actually kill something, or watch one of your 12 kids do the shooting?[/quote:26npjfmo]

What ever happened to "Welcome to the Forum"?.............BTW, I watched child number 11 miss an Elk 2 times but it was still fun. :mrgreen:


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

Hey welcome back to the forum! What was that a three day break after retiring your old name? Always glad to have a "new" guy on here!


----------



## JuddCT

Here is a bigger picture look. Now don't do the dumb thing with numbers and just pick out what helps your cause, look at everything!

[attachment=3:1gtbbkce]Beaver.JPG[/attachment:1gtbbkce]

[attachment=2:1gtbbkce]Book Cliffs Bittercreek.JPG[/attachment:1gtbbkce]

[attachment=1:1gtbbkce]Book Cliffs Roadless.JPG[/attachment:1gtbbkce]

[attachment=0:1gtbbkce]Boulder.JPG[/attachment:1gtbbkce]

I'll post the others in separate posts as it keeps crashing. :evil:


----------



## JuddCT

[attachment=2:202ob543]Cache Meadowville.JPG[/attachment:202ob543]

[attachment=1:202ob543]Cache North.JPG[/attachment:202ob543]

[attachment=0:202ob543]Cache South.JPG[/attachment:202ob543]


----------



## JuddCT

[attachment=0:2zrf026n]Central Mtns Nebo.JPG[/attachment:2zrf026n]

[attachment=1:2zrf026n]Central Mtns Manti.JPG[/attachment:2zrf026n]


----------



## JuddCT

[attachment=2:3u8mg1zs]Fillmore Pahvant.JPG[/attachment:3u8mg1zs]

[attachment=1:3u8mg1zs]Fish Lake.JPG[/attachment:3u8mg1zs]

[attachment=0:3u8mg1zs]La Sal.JPG[/attachment:3u8mg1zs]


----------



## JuddCT

[attachment=3:1xcugxzv]Monroe.JPG[/attachment:1xcugxzv]

[attachment=2:1xcugxzv]Mt Dutton.JPG[/attachment:1xcugxzv]

[attachment=1:1xcugxzv]Oquirrh Stansbury.JPG[/attachment:1xcugxzv]

[attachment=0:1xcugxzv]Panguitch Lake.JPG[/attachment:1xcugxzv]


----------



## JuddCT

[attachment=3:3gxcf9jd]Paunsaugunt.JPG[/attachment:3gxcf9jd]

[attachment=2:3gxcf9jd]San Juan.JPG[/attachment:3gxcf9jd]

[attachment=1:3gxcf9jd]Southwest Desert.JPG[/attachment:3gxcf9jd]

[attachment=0:3gxcf9jd]Wasatch.JPG[/attachment:3gxcf9jd]


----------



## JuddCT

Sorry, that seems like a lot. But I thought it might help paint a better picture than just stated figures and how they only compared to last year.


----------



## goofy elk

Are these just LE archery, or all the elk LE hunts combine on these units?
need to know what were look'in at,,,,,,and yes, the graphs are painting the pic..


----------



## wyoming2utah

My two cents:
1) bull numbers are going down (LE tag quotas have been going up for several years now, of course they have gone down)....but that is a good thing as Packout mentioned in a round-about way. In the past we had many units nearing the 1:1 ration and our breeding stock was decreased. Now, our breeding stock is higher and our bull numbers are lower. This is how it should be...
2) spike hunts are not only great opportunity hunts for the meat lovers, but they also help control bull/cow ratios without hurting the quality of the bulls on a unit. giving these spike hunts up would be disastrous in my opinion...
3) moving the rifle hunt out of the rut is going to have very minimal effect on the number of bulls killed on the rifle hunt and probably will have a negligible effect on the butt plug. However, if the percentage of tags were upped for archery hunters and decreased for rilfe hunters, we could give out more tags which would definitely make a difference.
4) to still manage for high-end bulls that meet the trophy crowd's expectations, we could still have premium units that are managed for higher bull/cow ratios...I have no problem with that. However, the majority of our LE units should still be managed for more opportunity. Statewide hunter surveys continue to show that this is what the public wants...


----------



## proutdoors

wyoming2utah said:


> My two cents:
> 1) bull numbers are going down (LE tag quotas have been going up for several years now, of course they have gone down)....but that is a good thing as Packout mentioned in a round-about way. In the past we had many units nearing the 1:1 ration and our breeding stock was decreased. Now, our breeding stock is higher and our bull numbers are lower. This is how it should be...
> 2) spike hunts are not only great opportunity hunts for the meat lovers, but they also help control bull/cow ratios without hurting the quality of the bulls on a unit. giving these spike hunts up would be disastrous in my opinion...
> 3) moving the rifle hunt out of the rut is going to have very minimal effect on the number of bulls killed on the rifle hunt and probably will have a negligible effect on the butt plug. However, if the percentage of tags were upped for archery hunters and decreased for rilfe hunters, we could give out more tags which would definitely make a difference.
> 4) to still manage for high-end bulls that meet the trophy crowd's expectations, we could still have premium units that are managed for higher bull/cow ratios...I have no problem with that. However, the majority of our LE units should still be managed for more opportunity. Statewide hunter surveys continue to show that this is what the public wants...


This is spot on, worth far more than two cents!


----------



## stablebuck

wyoming2utah said:


> My two cents:
> 1) bull numbers are going down (LE tag quotas have been going up for several years now, of course they have gone down)....but that is a good thing as Packout mentioned in a round-about way. In the past we had many units nearing the 1:1 ration and our breeding stock was decreased. Now, our breeding stock is higher and our bull numbers are lower. This is how it should be...
> 2) spike hunts are not only great opportunity hunts for the meat lovers, but they also help control bull/cow ratios without hurting the quality of the bulls on a unit. giving these spike hunts up would be disastrous in my opinion...
> 3) moving the rifle hunt out of the rut is going to have very minimal effect on the number of bulls killed on the rifle hunt and probably will have a negligible effect on the butt plug. However, if the percentage of tags were upped for archery hunters and decreased for rilfe hunters, we could give out more tags which would definitely make a difference.
> 4) to still manage for high-end bulls that meet the trophy crowd's expectations, we could still have premium units that are managed for higher bull/cow ratios...I have no problem with that. However, the majority of our LE units should still be managed for more opportunity. Statewide hunter surveys continue to show that this is what the public wants...


Sounds good to me!


----------



## 2full

I understand that the spike/cows hunts do some good for the heards, but....after paying extra for, and waiting for a LE tag, do they really have to be at the same time as LE archery? Before the spike/elk tags were started the cows were kept in check with hunts after the rifle hunts were over with. Why can't the spike/elk hunt for the meat hunters be then?
It just plain puts too many hunters in the same area with the deer hunters there as well, when trying to get a LE bow tag filled. 
Let them run the spike/cow tags the same time as the rifle LE tags, they get the peak of the rut, the most reach out and touch, and no others hunts going at the same time. :O•-: 
I know life isn't always "fair", but the LE archery tag has become a joke.


----------



## wyoming2utah

I disagree. When I had my LE archery tag in 2005, I shared the mountain with deer hunters, spike hunters, recreationists, and grouse hunters. The only hunters that I ever came into close contact with were grouse hunters....should we also change the dates of the grouse hunts to appease the LE elk hunters?

Sorry, but I think it is what it is...just because you have that special tag in hand doesn't mean the whole world should stop and wait for your hunt to be over. A couple years ago my group of hunters glassed up a group of bulls during the archery hunt that had a several spikes in it...so, we started to make a game plan. In doing so, a truck pulled up next to us and politely asked if we would not go after the spikes because there was a big bull in the area that they were trying to kill. We asked if their hunter was down in the area of those bulls; the guy in the truck said no but that he was worried if went down in there we would spook the big bull out of the area. We politely told him that we would appreciate it if his LE hunter stayed out the area while we tried to kill the spikes...

...It is called hunting and not killing for a reason. The reality is that there are numerous possible distractions out there that can disrupt the success of a hunt...dealing with those things is all part of it. The other reality is that it is virtually impossible to move all hunts around to where none overlap...someone is always going to mess someone else up. That is just the nature of the beast...


----------



## goofy elk

WtoU , Didnt you have the Boulder LE elk tag?

Whole different animal, than say a Wasatch/Manti/Nebo LE bow tag!

Crowding can be a deffinate issue on those 3 units....
It's just not the same south of I-70 as it is in the north.....


----------



## bowhunt3r4l1f3

goofy elk said:


> It's just not the same south of I-70 as it is in the north.....


+1!


----------



## stablebuck

2full said:


> I understand that the spike/cows hunts do some good for the heards, but....after paying extra for, and waiting for a LE tag, do they really have to be at the same time as LE archery? Before the spike/elk tags were started the cows were kept in check with hunts after the rifle hunts were over with. Why can't the spike/elk hunt for the meat hunters be then?
> It just plain puts too many hunters in the same area with the deer hunters there as well, when trying to get a LE bow tag filled.
> Let them run the spike/cow tags the same time as the rifle LE tags, they get the peak of the rut, the most reach out and touch, and no others hunts going at the same time. :O•-:
> I know life isn't always "fair", but the LE archery tag has become a joke.


it's public land...if you want more space to yourself...you know exactly what you have to do...hunt the public land that less people frequent...either that or you can tune in to the latest bowcast podcast and listen to the gentleman talk about whitetailproperties.com o-||


----------



## stablebuck

on a more constructive note...I think it might be a good idea to cut the spike/cow archery hunt on LE units back to close a week earlier than it already does...if you can't get a shot opportunity on a cow or a spike in two weeks on an LE unit then I don't think the 3rd week is gonna help any ;-)
and it's not like you can't take that same tag to an any bull area for the last 2 weeks of the archery hunt...oh yeah and then the extended...maybe an idea...


----------



## JuddCT

goofy elk said:


> Are these just LE archery, or all the elk LE hunts combine on these units?
> need to know what were look'in at,,,,,,and yes, the graphs are painting the pic..


Only LE Archery as that was the topic of the original post.


----------



## JuddCT

I can't speak for the Nebo unit, but I know Manti and Wasatch pretty well. It all really depends on how you hunt. But getting away from the crowds is just a part of using a public resource. A piece of paper saying you can kill an animal doesn't give you exclusive rights to push others out. If you want that put in for the CWMU tags.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

stablebuck said:


> on a more constructive note...I think it might be a good idea to cut the spike/cow archery hunt on LE units back to close a week earlier than it already does...if you can't get a shot opportunity on a cow or a spike in two weeks on an LE unit then I don't think the 3rd week is gonna help any ;-)
> and it's not like you can't take that same tag to an any bull area for the last 2 weeks of the archery hunt...oh yeah and then the extended...maybe an idea...


How about move the LE archery hunt a week later and then move the LE rifle hunt as well? Personally I hunt the any bull units when hunting archery and get deep enough that the only people I see are those I am with or those that are willing to ride in a saddle a long long ways. Never see hunters where we go that have hiked in. There is plenty of room to roam. When I draw a tag I will attempt to do the same thing.


----------



## stablebuck

Mr Muleskinner said:


> stablebuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> on a more constructive note...I think it might be a good idea to cut the spike/cow archery hunt on LE units back to close a week earlier than it already does...if you can't get a shot opportunity on a cow or a spike in two weeks on an LE unit then I don't think the 3rd week is gonna help any ;-)
> and it's not like you can't take that same tag to an any bull area for the last 2 weeks of the archery hunt...oh yeah and then the extended...maybe an idea...
> 
> 
> 
> How about move the LE archery hunt a week later and then move the LE rifle hunt as well? Personally I hunt the any bull units when hunting archery and get deep enough that the only people I see are those I am with or those that are willing to ride in a saddle a long long ways. Never see hunters where we go that have hiked in. There is plenty of room to roam. When I draw a tag I will attempt to do the same thing.
Click to expand...

yeah I'm with you on that, but I'm a little "half empty" in believing it will ever come to fruition. If I had my way I'd turn Utah into Illinois and make it archery/shotgun/muzzleloader only :O•-: ...I'm pretty sure that would be the shortest lived tenure of anyone in the history of Utah to chair the WB.


----------



## proutdoors

JuddCT said:


> I can't speak for the Nebo unit, but I know Manti and Wasatch pretty well. It all really depends on how you hunt. But getting away from the crowds is just a part of using a public resource. A piece of paper saying you can kill an animal doesn't give you exclusive rights to push others out. If you want that put in for the CWMU tags.


**** straight! I have spent lots of time during archery season on the Manti and Wasatch units, never had a problem getting away from the crowds.........


----------



## martymcfly73

proutdoors said:


> JuddCT said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak for the Nebo unit, but I know Manti and Wasatch pretty well. It all really depends on how you hunt. But getting away from the crowds is just a part of using a public resource. A piece of paper saying you can kill an animal doesn't give you exclusive rights to push others out. If you want that put in for the CWMU tags.
> 
> 
> 
> **** straight! I have spent lots of time during archery season on the Manti and Wasatch units, never had a problem getting away from the crowds.........
Click to expand...

+++11111


----------

