# conceal/carry, vehicles and "populated areas"



## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

My CC permit should be comming in the mail in a few weeks just in time for summer activities. To the best of my understanding that will make it legal for me to pack a loaded firearm even in/on a vehicle. I was instructed in my CC class that firearms must be concealed in "public". Otherwise, carrying could be construed as "brandishing". But my 357 does not lend itself to being easily concealed particularly in warm weather and I am a little fuzzy on what the definitiion of "public" is. If I were to strap my 357 on my my hip, in full view, climb on my ATV and ride it on approved ATV trails miles from any municipality but occassionally incountering other ATVers, hickers, bikers, horsemen, etc. Would I be guilty of "brandishing" a weapon or would I be within my rights as a CC permit holder? I know that many of you are CC permit holders. What are your thoughts?


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I am not real familiar with all the nuances of the cc laws but to the best of my knowledge in Utah you can open carry almost anywhere except for federal offices,establishments that serve alcohol,and banks.So with the scenario you have given I would say you would be fine.The question of loaded or not once you have your permit I believe you are within the bounds of the law to ride locked and loaded.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I may be mistaken here, but I was under the understanding that Utah and Arizona are some of the last OPEN CARRY states. Meaning that you do not need a permit to carry a VISIBLE gun in a holster. But if you wish to put it in your pants, under a shirt, in a jacket, etc, you must have a CCP at that point.

I went through the course about 2 years ago, and never ended up going to BCI to get it all done


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

The law-makers clarified this a little for us here recently too. You can now carry a loaded weapon in your vehicle without a CCWP. Which is cool if you're hunting. As far as being in the woods I think you should be "golden" as per FB, but that doesn't stop ignorant people from speaking up either.

I had a lady shoot me some dirty looks and give me guff on the trail when I was coming back with a limit of grouse this past September. You can't fix stupid, and apparently not "jack ass" either. I thought the whole exchange was funny, seeing how I had the loaded weapon, and she just decided to smart off.


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

I open carry a fully loaded M&P .40 almost every where I go. In Utah is it legal to open a carry an unloaded firearm without a permit. Having a permit allows you to carry loaded concealed or not. The only place you cannot carry are federal buildings, courthouses, areas listed as restricted buy the department of homeland security, and private institutions listed on the BCI website (the LDS curch is currently the only one). Any city owned facilties or private institutions that receive state funds cannot make a rule restricting the carry or ownership of a firearm, (Only rules on discharge). The state reserves this right to itself in the uniform codes as listed the the link below.

Now if you are on private property they can ask you to leave, conceal, or place the gun in your vehicle. ( you can have a a firearm in your vehicle in a lock box on private property and there is nothing to stop you, (See SB78http://le.utah.gov/~2009/htmdoc/sbillhtm/SB0078.htm recently passed)

Here is a link about unform firearms law the second one is to another forum that has a large list of links to help better understand the laws.

http://www.le.utah.gov/UtahCode/getCodeSection?code=53-5a-102

http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=99

Hope it helps


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

truemule got it all right. Thanks for the great summary. Your CC instructor was WRONG! You do not have to carry concealed. Without a permit, it must be unloaded (2 actions until it goes boom). You can open carry any place in the state of Utah except as outlined above. On private property, you can be asked to leave, but you are not required to conceal.

Where things get a little tricky is at or near schools - it's not exactly clear if you may be violating a federal law if you open carry a firearm without a permit. With a permit, you can carry (open or concealed) in any school in the state. In short, get a permit to be safe (just not from campfire's instructor).

I'd highly recommend utahconcealedcarry.com A strong community of folks there that are very helpful with questions like this.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

apollosmith said:


> I'd highly recommend utahconcealedcarry.com A strong community of folks there that are very helpful with questions like this.


Definitely! Great resource.

Just to add, campfire. Carry concealed, no problem. Carry openly, no problem. But carry concealed in such a way that people can see you have a gun and you can bet there'll be trouble. If you can't conceal your .357 so that it isn't printing, (Blackhawk?) I recommend a bag or fanny pack. http://www.maxpedition.com/

These guys can set you up: http://www.opsgear.com/


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Nice western style holster !!


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

fatbass said:


> Like this, Finn?


What a fine concealed carry example :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: -_O- -_O- -_O-


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

shotgunwill said:


> You can now carry a loaded weapon in your vehicle without a CCWP. Which is cool if you're hunting.


You may want to take a look at this link, and maybe do a little bit of research on your own. It looks as though the new law does not allow you to have a loaded long gun in your vehicle, whether hunting or not.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12345824



> The new law, drafted by Rep. Stephen Sandstrom, R-Orem, means anyone over the age of 18 can carry a loaded, concealed weapon anywhere in their vehicle, including the glove box, center console and in a zippered case. However, long guns, such as shotguns and rifles, still must be unloaded while in the gun rack.


Fishrmn


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

Yeah, I saw that part. It's a good thing that are other places to put a long gun.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

Fishrmn said:


> You may want to take a look at this link, and maybe do a little bit of research on your own. It looks as though the new law does not allow you to have a loaded long gun in your vehicle, whether hunting or not.


Yes, but this is only if you do not have a concealed carry permit. If you have a permit, there is no designation between pistol, rifle, slingshot, etc. You can carry (concealed or openly) any legal firearm. This does not, however, mean that it's a good idea to have a loaded long gun in a vehicle.

The problem here is that not all DWR and forest service officers know the law and they could potentially cite you, but it would never hold up in court.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Thanks to everyone for a lot of very useful information. It seems that a little common sense and good judgement will still be valuable assets but I feel much more confident in some practices that I do, have done, and intend to do. By the way, Finnegan, my 357 is a Taurus 66 that I got mainly as a field/vehicle gun. I also have a very old but very functional S&W K frame M&P with a 2 1/2 inch barrel that will be a little easier to carry concealed. But I am very interested in a fanny pack anyway ( not necessarily like Fatbasses :wink: ). Cabelas has one for about $15.00. Has anyone used one of these or have any pros/cons about them?


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

fatbass said:


> Like this, Finn?


 -_O- Well, you'd never guess he's got a gun in there, would you? Actually, I'll bet it's his dope kit - ain't that Robert Downey Jr.?

No, no, no, ...like this:











campfire said:


> But I am very interested in a fanny pack anyway ( not necessarily like Fatbasses :wink: ). Cabelas has one for about $15.00. Has anyone used one of these or have any pros/cons about them?


You mean this one? If you're going with a fanny pack, it needs to have a durable, smooth zipper and allow for quick access. I'm thinking at that price, the zipper couldn't be worth much.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

It has got to the point now that when most people see a fanny pack they automatically think: "Fanny pack = gun"
I know a couple of guys from work that used fanny packs from when the fad started to carry stuff around and they tell me that people are always asking them lately if they have a gun in it (_they don't_).

So I think the fanny pack "conceals" the handgun as per the law, but fails as far as the element of surprise goes, anymore. However, I think that they still would be a good idea when doing outdoor recreation stuff like fishing or riding ATVs etc to keep the DWR and others off your back.
Just something to consider anyway.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

apollosmith said:


> Yes, but this is only if you do not have a concealed carry permit. If you have a permit, there is no designation between pistol, rifle, slingshot, etc. You can carry (concealed or openly) any legal firearm. This does not, however, mean that it's a good idea to have a loaded long gun in a vehicle.
> 
> The problem here is that not all DWR and forest service officers know the law and they could potentially cite you, but it would never hold up in court.


The DWR has a rule that your CCW weapon is NOT a legal hunting weapon... so you cannot use a loaded rifle from your vehicle to shoot a deer during the season.

-DallanC


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Yikeys !!!! O-|-O O-|-O

That's reason enough to carry a firearm..... :shock:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

apollosmith said:


> Yes, but this is only if you do not have a concealed carry permit. *If you have a permit, there is no designation between pistol, rifle, slingshot, etc.* You can carry (concealed or openly) any legal firearm. This does not, however, mean that it's a good idea to have a loaded long gun in a vehicle.


I thought the CC was for handgun's only.....I've checked into this a little !!! _O\ 
I think Fishrmn is right !!

No?? :?


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

DallanC said:


> The DWR has a rule that your CCW weapon is NOT a legal hunting weapon... so you cannot use a loaded rifle from your vehicle to shoot a deer during the season.


Yes, you're absolutely right. There's a *law* against shooting ANY weapon from a vehicle.

The difference is that DWR has a *rule* that says you can't have a loaded rifle in your vehicle while hunting. But the state *law* says you can if you have a permit. So if you were driving between hunting spots and got pulled over by DWR and had a loaded rifle in your vehicle, you're screwed UNLESS you have a permit.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

.45 said:


> I thought the CC was for handgun's only.....I've checked into this a little !!! _O\
> I think Fishrmn is right !!


Nope. If you check the laws, the concealed firearms permit applies to all "dangerous weapons" - including knifes, slingshots, rifles, muzzleloaders, etc. (as long as it is not illegal somewhere else in law - such as a sawed off shotgun, dynamite, fully auto unlicensed rifle, etc.). There's NO designation about the type of firearm for permit holders. So, you can conceal a rifle in your trenchcoat if you want, or more likely, hide one under the seat of your truck.

Where things are a bit confusing is with the brand new law that extends the rights to have a firearm for personal protection to your vehicle. This law states that you can conceal and keep a loaded HANDGUN in your vehicle even if you don't have a permit. But you cannot conceal or keep a loaded long gun. But this really only applies if you don't have a permit. If you do have a permit, you can already conceal ANY "dangerous weapon".

So, if you have a permit, you can keep that rifle loaded under the seat if you want. Without a permit, this is illegal. If you have a permit, but your wife doesn't, you can now keep a loaded pistol in the vehicle and it's perfectly legal when she's alone in the vehicle.

Hopefully that clarifies a bit.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

apollosmith said:


> Yes, you're absolutely right. There's a *law* against shooting ANY weapon from a vehicle.


True, but that wasnt what I was talking about.



> The difference is that DWR has a *rule* that says you can't have a loaded rifle in your vehicle while hunting. But the state *law* says you can if you have a permit. So if you were driving between hunting spots and got pulled over by DWR and had a loaded rifle in your vehicle, you're screwed UNLESS you have a permit.


True again. BUT! If you have a CCP and are out hunting, you can have a loaded weapon in the vehicle, but that weapon cannot be your hunting weapon. Your hunting weapon must remain unloaded regardless of CCP or not.

-DallanC


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Not to change the subject, but Congress is moving to allow guns back in national parks

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-po ... nal.Parks/


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## luckystrike (Oct 8, 2007)

apollosmith said:


> .45 said:
> 
> 
> > I thought the CC was for handgun's only.....I've checked into this a little !!! _O\
> ...


I'm sorry but this is the new law and what it reads and it does apply to CCW holders. We as permit holders are not exempt from this entire statute.

76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
(i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
(ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
(b) on a public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
(3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
(4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

Subsection(3) is the one we really need to look at here, this applies to everyone whether in possession of a concealed permit or not: Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks luckystrike. I couldn't seem to find the right part of the Utah Code to quote. You did an excellent job.

In simple terms: No loaded long guns in vehicles.

Fishrmn


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

DallanC said:


> If you have a CCP and are out hunting, you can have a loaded weapon in the vehicle, but that weapon cannot be your hunting weapon. Your hunting weapon must remain unloaded regardless of CCP or not.


Could you please show me where this is specified in law? I don't think you'll find it. You will find that a CFP allows you to have ANY firearms loaded and/or concealed in your vehicle or otherwise. Now DWR has a rule that says your hunting weapon must be unloaded in a vehicle, but the law will trump the DWR rule. DWR officers may not know this and if they do, they may not like it, but this is what the law says. Yes, there's seemingly a conflict in what we're being told, but that alone would be enough to get you off without penalty.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

luckystrike said:


> I'm sorry but this is the new law and what it reads and it does apply to CCW holders. We as permit holders are not exempt from this entire statute.
> 
> 76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street...


Umm, yes we are exempt. Check 76-10-523



> (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and *Section 76-10-505 do not apply* to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued


I might be missing something, but that sure seems pretty clear to me that the code you cited does not apply to CFP holders.

You might also check 76-10-504 which says, "Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur with a city or on a highway"/


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## luckystrike (Oct 8, 2007)

apollosmith said:


> luckystrike said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry but this is the new law and what it reads and it does apply to CCW holders. We as permit holders are not exempt from this entire statute.
> ...


I'm assuming that this is what you're making reference to; (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:

But section 3 of 76-10-505 applies to everyone CFP or not: Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.


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## luckystrike (Oct 8, 2007)

apollosmith said:


> DallanC said:
> 
> 
> > If you have a CCP and are out hunting, you can have a loaded weapon in the vehicle, but that weapon cannot be your hunting weapon. Your hunting weapon must remain unloaded regardless of CCP or not.
> ...


Utah code 76-10-504

(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
(2) A person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a loaded firearm in violation of Subsection (1) is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.

(5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
(a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
(b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6a-102.

41-6a-102

(21) "Highway" means the entire width between property lines of every way or place of any nature when any part of it is open to the use of the public as a matter of right for vehicular travel.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

luckystrike said:


> But section 3 of 76-10-505 applies to everyone CFP or not: Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.


Nope, wrong again.

76-10-505 says you cannot have a loaded firearm in a vehicle unless it's your car or you have permission from the person that owns the car. But, section 3 then says that this does not apply to long guns. OK, so ANYBODY can have a loaded pistol in a vehicle. Cool. But you can't have a loaded rifle. Bummer.

Then you have to read 76-10-523 which says that *if you have a permit 76-10-505 and sections 1 and 2 of 76-10-504 DO NOT APPLY*. This is further clarified in line 1 of 76-10-505 - "Unless otherwise authorized by law". This means that if you have a permit, you can have a rifle OR a pistol (or whatever) loaded and/or concealed within a vehicle. So if you have a permit, just ignore these sections of the law - they don't apply to you.

So then you have to look to see if carrying a loaded firearm or rifle in a vehicle is restricted somewhere else and you'll find that it isn't. And as you noted, Section 5 of 76-10-504 actually extends your rights to being able to carry a concealed firearm or rifle WHILE HUNTING as long as the barrel is more than 4", even if you DON'T have a permit. The only restriction is that you don't SHOOT WILDLIFE from a city or highway.


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## luckystrike (Oct 8, 2007)

apollosmith said:


> luckystrike said:
> 
> 
> > But section 3 of 76-10-505 applies to everyone CFP or not: Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
> ...


How about this, you go right ahead and carry your loaded rifle in your vehicle and get pulled over and see what happens. You are misreading the laws and their intentions. If you would like I can give you the number for Jeff Dunn who is over issuing permits down at BCI and you can call and confirm with him and maybe he can make more sense of what I have been trying to explain because unless you are law enforcement you are not allowed to carry a loaded rifle in a vehicle, period.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

luckystrike said:


> How about this, you go right ahead and carry your loaded rifle in your vehicle and get pulled over and see what happens.


I don't advocate carrying a loaded rifle in a vehicle for safety reasons, but it certainly is legal to do so.



> You are misreading the laws and their intentions.


Intentions don't matter when it comes to laws. It's only what they says that counts. You pointed out two sections of code that restrict carrying a rifle in a vehicle. I pointed out 76-10-523 which clearly says that neither of those laws apply if you have a permit. I'm not sure how to explain it any more clearly, but you've yet to show anything in the law that says otherwise. I'm not a lawyer, but Mitch Vilos is and he as an excellent book on Utah gun laws that clearly says that it is perfectly legal to carry a loaded rifle in a vehicle if you have a permit.



> If you would like I can give you the number for Jeff Dunn who is over issuing permits down at BCI and you can call and confirm with him and maybe he can make more sense of what I have been trying to explain because unless you are law enforcement you are not allowed to carry a loaded rifle in a vehicle, period.


I know Jeff well. I also know that he's probably the one that wrote this on the BCI web site - "The concealed firearm permit only exempts the permit holder from three laws: carrying a concealed and loaded firearm in a vehicle; ..." or this - "Only a peace officer in the performance of his duty *or a person with a valid permit* to carry may carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle." Notice that these both say "firearm" instead of "handgun".

Again, if I'm wrong I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't see anything in Utah law that makes this illegal. Lawyers and everyone else I've talked to (except you and a few DWR officers that think their belief of what's legal trumps the actual law) seems to agree.

There's some more discussion on this topic at http://utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2362


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## luckystrike (Oct 8, 2007)

Thanks for the link. I'm going to see if my buddy Clark Aposhian can chime in on that discussion and clarify everything there. And I don't think my belief of what's legal trumps the actual law, I know what is law because it's been hammered in my head because of the work I do.

By the way you should look into the term "notwithstanding" and try and understand what it means in terms of that statute.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

nm


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

> If I were to strap my 357 on my my hip, in full view, climb on my ATV and ride it on approved ATV trails miles from any municipality but occassionally incountering other ATVers, hickers, bikers, horsemen, etc. Would I be guilty of "brandishing" a weapon or would I be within my rights as a CC permit holder? I know that many of you are CC permit holders. What are your thoughts?


You would be perfectly legal to do this (fully loaded) with a cc permit. Without a permit you would still be fine as long as it was not concealed and not loaded. ( with Utah's definition of "unloaded" you can put four in a DA six shooter as long as the cylinder in line with the barrel and the next in line is empty. IOW it must take two actions to fire.

Without a permit, stay out of school zones with a gun. With a permit you can legally carry in a school zone. I suggest it may be best to conceal deeply at school, just to avoid problems from the un-informed. If you have a Utah cc permit, you can carry legally in a school or school zone in Utah, but if you have a permit from another state, Federal Law prohibits it.

There is no Utah law that prohibits open carry, just the ones about being loaded on a public street. The cc permit makes that law void for the permit holder, so it is legal to carry openly and loaded with a permit.

Still, I prefer to carry concealed around town, but often carry openly in the woods. When you get your permit, there will be a letter with it telling you what laws the permit makes void for you.

Carry on!


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