# Utah vs BYU in Las Vegas bowl



## mikevanwilder

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/121312/las-vegas-bowl

Looks like Bronco will get another shot at the Utes. This is awesome they put them in the bowl together.


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## Mallardhead12

Actually really pisses me off. Blatantly disrespectful for a great Utah team that was tied for the south to take the lowly Vegas bowl. Washington St must have deep pockets!! 


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## Huge29

Lowly Vegas Bowl?? Seems about right for a team on a 3 game losing streak is it?


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## Mr Muleskinner

Who has a 3 game losing streak?


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## Mr Muleskinner

Hardly a great Utah team IMO. Love em but there is no debating that as a team their QB and WR's are subpar at best. As much as I love Wilson as a kid he stinks as a passer and QB for the PAC-12. I think he is 10th in passer rating. After 12 games this year the proof is in the pudding. Wilson is not good or even average.

Great Defense. Great Special Teams. Real Good Running game with a hurt rb. The backup filled in well against a porous Colorado team that stinks.

This bowl is a big let down to Ute fans, such as myself, but to be honest the Utes had it in their control to get to a better bowl and simply blew it. Still a good season but they lost one too many games.


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## Rspeters

The Utes don't deserve a better bowl than this in my opinion (and obviously in other peoples' opinions too). I agree that Wilson is horrible... can't stand watching him play. 

It should be a good game. My biggest complaint about Mendenhall is how he's been so bad at getting the team motivated for games like this. Now that he's leaving BYU and doesn't have to worry about repercussions, maybe he'll throw his reverence (for lack of better words) aside and actually get the team motivated for once. None of this "this is just another game" crap.


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## BigT

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Hardly a great Utah team IMO. Love em but there is no debating that as a team their QB and WR's are subpar at best. As much as I love Wilson as a kid he stinks as a passer and QB for the PAC-12. I think he is 10th in passer rating. After 12 games this year the proof is in the pudding. Wilson is not good or even average.
> 
> Great Defense. Great Special Teams. Real Good Running game with a hurt rb. The backup filled in well against a porous Colorado team that stinks.
> 
> This bowl is a big let down to Ute fans, such as myself, but to be honest the Utes had it in their control to get to a better bowl and simply blew it. Still a good season but they lost one too many games.


Wilson has been bad in the throwing game for sure. I am not sure if the receivers are as bad as they look because Wilson can't get them the ball. I think one of the reasons Utah is in Vegas, and not in the Sun Bowl is because they aren't all that exciting to watch. Wazzu got pasted in the Apple Cup against a Washington team Utah beat in Seattle. But Wazzu can be pretty exciting at times offensively... Course, Utah was about the same last year offensively, and had quite the game plan against CSU who I'd consider equal to BYU. At least the CSU of last year.

That said, I do believe that as long as Wilson doesn't turn over the ball, Utah wins this game. BYU is 1-3 this year against P5 opponents with the one win coming on a hail mary pass. I believe Utah beats UCLA if Booker played and they weren't having a hangover from the Arizona game.

Personally, after Nick Emery's suckerpunch on Brandon Taylor, I really didn't care to see another rivalry game. Hope the Utah players watch their backs.... or their middle sections!

Go Utes


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## Catherder

A couple of thoughts.

1. As a Ute fan, I was bummed initially about where they ended up and had/have decidedly mixed feelings about the opponent. However, when you think about it, it shouldn't really be a surprise, nor should Utefans feel it is a slap in the face. Once you are past the two playoff games, and maybe to a lesser extent, the "Big 5 or 6" New Years day games, *all* of the game assignments for the rest of the (excessive number of) Bowl games are driven by money. Money and TV ratings sure as heck called for UCLA to stay home and play the Foster Farms bowl. It also is undoubtedly a driver in having Utah and the TDS play in the Vegas bowl. A sold out stadium, notable regional interest, and a true rivalry game that will not be low on passion. These are things that are missing in about 80% of the "rest" of the low to mid tier bowls. For instance, who really give a crap how UCLA does against a Nebraska team with a *losing* record? The same can be said for most of the rest. Upon reflection, the Utes assignment to Vegas is neither an insult to the Utes, nor a reason for cougarfans to razz the Utes about still being irrelevant.

2.


BigT said:


> Personally, after Nick Emery's suckerpunch on Brandon Taylor, I really didn't care to see another rivalry game. Hope the Utah players watch their backs.... or their middle sections!
> 
> Go Utes


Word! I was out of state on business for most of this week and was stunned by how badly this incident made BYU (and the LDS church) look in national opinion. It also is sickening to read the comment section on the paper and see how many cougarfan zealots want to excuse, justify, or rationalize the action. I never thought I would see the day when "TDS" meant "thugs down South".


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## MuscleWhitefish

Mallardhead12 said:


> Actually really pisses me off. Blatantly disrespectful for a great Utah team that was tied for the south to take the lowly Vegas bowl. Washington St must have deep pockets!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They are going to the Sun Bowl in El Paso, that is definitely not an upgrade.

If I had a choice between Vegas and El Paso, I think I would select Vegas every time.

I think the funniest bowl is the Arizona bowl where MWC Nevada takes on MWC Colorado State.

Oh, and Utah State in the Potato Bowl.

I'm still waiting for the Frozen Bowl to be played in North Dakota or Barrow Alaska, maybe next year.


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## massmanute

I am not the world's sharpest critic of the game of football, but here's what I think.

Utah is a very good team, not a great team, though they did show flashes of greatness at times. Wilson's not a bad quarterback, maybe not one of the first rank, but not bad, or perhaps even bordering on pretty good. His threat as a runner partially made up for a somewhat less than stellar passing record.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Well statistically he was 10th of 12 starters in the PAC-12. Factor in running, which is what the QBR does and he is 9th of 12. His passing was not just less than stellar. It was just barely better than the two worst passing QB's of the conference. I have met Travis and love him to death as a person. He is truly a great kid that works very hard for his team and he is everything you want in a team mate, a role model and a QB.........other than the fact that he stinks.

If the Utes had a better QB they would have been in the Championship and quite possibly playing in the Rose Bowl this year. Instead they get to play at Sam Boyd Stadium and play BYU for 2 of the next 3 games.

I think I am going to go drink some grapefruit juice now and chase it with milk.


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## GaryFish

Well, I'd agree with the thought that the match up is at least more interesting than 80% of the other 40 bowl games. 

Both schools have had several injuries through the year, so with a couple of weeks off to heal, it is hard to see who will be playing for both teams. I think BYU certainly has more motivation for it. I think Bronco would REALLY like to go out with a win over Utah - the thing that has alluded him for a while. Plus, he is sitting on 99 wins with BYU - and that 100 would be a real nice number. 

Utah I see as a team deflated from climbing as high as #3, and thinking that they could get to the CFP, and then realizing they are viewed as the 6th place team in a 12 team conference after 3 tough losses. So the rivalry is about the only motivation the Utes would have in a bowl game. And really, much as I hate Vegas, it is certainly better than El Paso. EVERY city in America, is better than a trip to El Paso. As for any suggestion that Utah is too good for the Vegas Bowl - Considering they've only had what, one bowl game in the last four years, I'd suggest that a winning record and a bowl game are good things, even if the lowly Vegas Bowl. It sure beats sitting home as in recent years.


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## LostLouisianian

I recommend both teams go gambling and get so fall down drunk that they both can blame the loss on a hangover...


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## MuscleWhitefish

BigT said:


> Wilson has been bad in the throwing game for sure. I am not sure if the receivers are as bad as they look because Wilson can't get them the ball. I think one of the reasons Utah is in Vegas, and not in the Sun Bowl is because they aren't all that exciting to watch. Wazzu got pasted in the Apple Cup against a Washington team Utah beat in Seattle. But Wazzu can be pretty exciting at times offensively... Course, Utah was about the same last year offensively, and had quite the game plan against CSU who I'd consider equal to BYU. At least the CSU of last year.
> 
> That said, I do believe that as long as Wilson doesn't turn over the ball, Utah wins this game. BYU is 1-3 this year against P5 opponents with the one win coming on a hail mary pass. I believe Utah beats UCLA if Booker played and they weren't having a hangover from the Arizona game.
> 
> Personally, after Nick Emery's suckerpunch on Brandon Taylor, I really didn't care to see another rivalry game. Hope the Utah players watch their backs.... or their middle sections!
> 
> Go Utes


A Washington State team that beat UCLA and Arizona, which the Utes lost to. The Pac 12 was whacky this year. I mean Washington did beat USC in California. Utah thumped Oregon and Oregon finished the season 6-0 including a win at Stanford. The Pac 12 sent 10 of 12 teams bowling.

Sugar, Fiesta, Rose, Citrus are the only bowls out of the playoff that really would be an upgrade from the Vegas Bowl. Stanford won the Pac 12, so they go to the Rose. No other Pac 12 team was selected in the other bowls, if there was another Pac 12 team it would have probably been Oregon. The Utes stumbled at the end of the season and there record is what it is. The rest of the bowls are about having one team close enough to draw fans with an interesting match-up, with a few exceptions.

I think it is kind of funny how smug Ute fans can be. They don't want to play Utah State or BYU, because they are in the Pac 12 and that magically makes them better than everyone else. To me, it is the rivalries that make college football. It is fun to watch Utah vs BYU, Utah vs Utah State, and Utah State vs BYU. These games are great, because it creates animosity between families and fans.


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## Critter

Sounds like some like the match up. The game is already sold out except for what BYU and Utah have for sale. But that doesn't count the online scalpers that may of purchased more than anyone.


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## GaryFish

And I think you nailed it there Critter. The Bowls make money on the TV deals, which is why there are so many bowl games playing in empty stadiums. Ticket sales are the icing to the cake of profitability. And the Las Vegas Bowl is no dummy. A BYU-Utah match up is a guaranteed sell out for sure. No other opponent for either team would generate as much interest.


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## 2full

Injuries killed the Utes. But, that is part of the game
It killed several good teams seasons. Ask Baylor.

And, you hit the nail perfect MuscleWhitefish, the Pac-12 beat the crap out of each other all year.


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## GaryFish

2full said:


> Injuries killed the Utes. But, that is part of the game
> It killed several good teams seasons. Ask Baylor.


And I think that right there is what separates the consistent national championship contenders from the other teams. I think that Utah, and BYU for that matter, can compete pretty much with most (though not all) teams in the country with their first string. But if they lose even 1-2 first team players, they are done. When you can go into the Big 10 championship game with your 3rd string QB like Ohio State did last year - then you have depth that separates you from the pack. But there are only a hand full of schools where the top talent will take the 2nd string position and not transfer for more playing time somewhere else. Those are the teams that compete year after year. And the rest are just out there for entertainment purposes.

The injury thing is also why I think this BYU-Utah game is tough to call right now. I think Utah's 1st team would beat BYU's this year, but without Booker, they are not the same team. Same goes with BYU not having a feature back, or a QB that can run. BYU's offense is the old Norm Chow pass or run a draw-trap offense that was so great for a long time, but very predictable.

But I must say as a Loyal Strong and True Cougar Fan - I'm more interested in the bowl game against Utah than really, any other opponent from the 12 Pack. The only other team I'd like to see BYU play would be a rematch against UCLA. That game was close, fun to watch, and pretty evenly matched. I'd like to see them play again on a neutral field, with a season of experience for both teams' freshmen QBs. But as it stands, I think the game will be a compelling game with two fairly evenly matched teams.


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## LostLouisianian

I think both teams deserved where they ended up at. Now we will see who the better coach is at actually motivating a team that has little motivation right now.


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## Rspeters

LostLouisianian said:


> I think both teams deserved where they ended up at. Now we will see who the better coach is at actually motivating a team that has little motivation right now.


If it comes down to strictly which team is more motivated, unless Bronco is out of character, I will give Whittingham and the Utes the nod every time. Inability to motivate the team for the big games is my biggest complaint about Mendenhall.


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## mikevanwilder

Here ya go!


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## BigT

Rspeters said:


> If it comes down to strictly which team is more motivated, unless Bronco is out of character, I will give Whittingham and the Utes the nod every time. Inability to motivate the team for the big games is my biggest complaint about Mendenhall.


Utah is playing the disrespect card hard core. KWhitt and the team will certainly have the motivation it needs. If it were against San Diego St, I might be worried. Because its BYU, they'll be excited and ready. Utah won't want to end on a losing note to BYU. That said, neither does BYU. Here's something to consider. Though BYU is certainly practicing, Bronco is in Virginia organizing his staff, hitting the recruiting trail to keep those recruits committed. Bronco will most certainly take some of the coaches from his staff. So those coaches not taken back to UVA, is there any issues with the coaches who weren't "good" enough to go back east? No matter what is said down south, Bronco's focus is not on BYU, it's his new and current employer.

What'll be fun is when Bronco and gang start taking some of the BYU recruits back east with him. Utah experienced this last year with Sitake.

This is why I think Utah wins by 10 or more.


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## Mr Muleskinner

I would bet you will see more recruits leave BYU for Utah than you will BYU for Virginia. I agree with the motivation factor. I fully expect both teams to be fired up for this game. With a win this would be five in a row for Utah. BYU has not won since 2009. Add to the fact that Whitt and Bronco simply do not like each other and it is Red versus Blue. The players have plenty to play for.


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## GaryFish

Why would Utah feel disrespected?


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## Rspeters

Because they beat Michigan in the first game of the year therefore they deserve way better than the Las Vegas bowl.


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## Critter

I know how to fix this. Instead of BYU vrs Utah in the Vegas bowl how about taking Colorado State out of the Arizona bowl where they are playing Nevada that is in the same conference and putting Colorado State in the Vegas Bowl and Utah in the Arizona Bowl. 

Now that would be disrespect.


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## GaryFish

Rspeters said:


> Because they beat Michigan in the first game of the year therefore they deserve way better than the Las Vegas bowl.


I guess? that makes sense. I thought that the 6th place team in the 12 Pack went the the Vegas Bowl. So that is what they deserve. The other 12 Pack bowl games that are better are the Rose Bowl, and Holiday Bowl, but those go to the top two teams in the conference. The Foster Farms bowl in San Francisco is against a 5-7 Nebraska team? Would that be better? Going to El Paso for the Sun Bowl certainly couldn't be considered better than Vegas, and that leaves the Alamo Bowl against TCU in San Antonio. And of all those choices, Vegas is a much better option. It is drivable for fans, there is stuff to do, it is an opponent Utah cares about beating. With the Rose Bowl and Holiday Bowl off the table, what does Utah think they deserve that would be better than the Vegas Bowl? Seriously?


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## Mr Muleskinner

Fact is Utah IMO...... Utah does not "deserve" anything more. It was a let down to fans to not end up in a bigger bowl for sure. Personally I was hoping to make the trip to San Diego or San Antonio but once Stanford did not make the playoffs that kind of went out the window. Like I said before......Utah wins one more game and it is a different story. 

Maybe if Wilson did not throw a 4th down pass out of the endzone in overtime????? Maybe if Utah showed up at USC????? Maybe the Utes win against UCLA with a healthy Booker???? Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Fact is they lost.

What happened against Oregon and Michigan was long ago. They mean nothing now other than good quality wins earlier in the year. Ute fans need to suck it up and I am one of them. It is football. 

Personally if there is anybody I feel that got hosed it is a Stanford team that I feel will easily beat Iowa and would beat Michigan St. in a flash.


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## Catherder

GaryFish said:


> I thought that the 6th place team in the 12 Pack went the the Vegas Bowl.


Actually, we were tied for 3rd, based on conference record. 

Of course, Whit is going to use the "disrespect" card. It's one more tool he has to get the troops fired up. Wouldn't you do the same as a coach? He'll have the Utes ready. Lets see if Roscoe can do the same with his multitude of distractions.

As a fan, I'm kind of starting to warm up to a rivalry game bowl. 20 minutes of listening to chirping cougarfans on sportstalk radio on the way in to work will get one fired up and cure any malaise. And I have to admit, opening a can of whoop*&# on the TDS in a bowl would be a great way to start the holiday season. (assuming we have any offensive playmakers left to do so. ;-) )

At least the Utes aren't like my other Alma mater, Colorado St. They get to play a fellow conference member in scenic Tucson. _/O Plenty of good seats still available. :roll:


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## GaryFish

I can't believe utefans still do that team down south crap left over from Urban Liar. The same shtick he pulls everywhere to intentionally disrespect opponents. What a freaking tool.  Plus, it's just stupid. Like making little gang sign hand gestures. If you aren't the Longhorns, then it just looks stupid but whatever. 

Yea, that game in Tucson is the stinker of all stinker bowl games.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Well..........they are the team down south. 

I hear the Utes being referred to as the team up north all of the time. No Biggie.

I can show you places it gets much worse.......Tennessee/Alabama.....Michigan/Ohio State........Florida/Georgia.........Army/Navy.......just to name a few. Having been in the Navy I could tell you things (not on this forum) that would make you cringe.....and having performed work on the BYU campus (wearing red mind you)..........well let's just say the honor code was broken many, many times.


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## willfish4food

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Well..........they are the team down south.
> 
> I hear the Utes being referred to as the team up north all of the time. No Biggie.
> 
> I can show you places it gets much worse.......Tennessee/Alabama.....Michigan/Ohio State........Florida/Georgia.........Army/Navy.......just to name a few. Having been in the Navy I could tell you things (not on this forum) that would make you cringe.....and having performed work on the BYU campus (wearing red mind you)..........well let's just say the honor code was broken many, many times.


Don't know that I've ever heard of the U of U referred to as "the team up north" except when mocking the Utes that refer to BYU as the TDS.

Having grown up in Florida as a Gator and now living in Alabama I will say that the rivalries down here are "bigger." And by that I mean that more people care and more things shut down when Alabama plays Auburn, Florida plays FSU, the ****tail party happens, etc. However, I don't think any of them come close to the bitter hatred, and down right mean spirited nature of the BYU/Utah rivalry. (With the exception of the Alabama fan that poisoned the trees in Toomer's Corner. That dude was nuts)

Could just be my perception though.


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## Mr Muleskinner

I heard Gordon Monson even refer to the Utes as the team up north 3 times in a five minute span yesterday until his co-host told him to cool it.

Maybe Alabama does not hate Tennessee but having lived in Tennessee I know most fans there hate the Tide.........but then again.......so do most LSU fans that I have met and it is not just a strong dislike.


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## LostLouisianian

Well let's just say if I saw a Tide fan on fire I wouldn't pee on him to put out the flames. ;-)


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## willfish4food

To be fair though. Anyone that's not an Alabama fan hates Alabama. They are unique in their ability to make others hate them.


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## Critter

willfish4food said:


> To be fair though. Anyone that's not an Alabama fan hates Alabama. They are unique in their ability to make others hate them.


While I am not a Alabama fan either, I have found that most fans do like any other teams success on the field or courts other than the one that they root for. And Alabama has been quite successful on the football field.


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## LostLouisianian

willfish4food said:


> To be fair though. Anyone that's not an Alabama fan hates Alabama. They are unique in their ability to make others hate them.


I think with me it also a deep hatred of Nick Satan. But then again he is a great coach, to an extent. A very close friend of mine's son played for LSU on Nicks national championship team and was a defensive star and went on to play in the NFL. I'll just say that Nick is questionable at best. During Bear Bryant's day it was hard for any SEC team to compete with the $$$ that Bama boosters were dishing out behind the scenes. And yes I know LSU pulled shenanigans back then too. Seems like almost every star football player could land summer jobs working at certain companies where they showed up, clocked in on the clock and went about doing whatever they wanted for the rest of the day then showed back up at quitting time to clock out and were making very big money just to clock in and out once a day. This sort of garbage went on back in the 60's and 70's without anyone giving a flip. So for me there's a more deep seated dislike for bama with Satan being the coach than if someone else would be the coach.


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## Mr Muleskinner

He is the reason I don't like Bama. That and I lived in Tennessee. I did like them when Stallings was the coach though. He was just a good guy. Plain and Simple. I was in 10th grade the last year that Bryant coached and living in Wyoming before I lived in Tennessee.

I used to like BYU (just the football team) a long, long time ago because they were fun to watch. Back when McMahon played for them. I followed them with Young and Detmer (who couldn't?) but since then I have grown to dislike them. Borderline hate. Most of it stems from my business dealings with the school itself, my family's dealings with the church (my great grandmother wrote the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which is a whole other story) and the rest from being a Ute season ticket holder. I used to be able to root for BYU when they were not playing the Utes or Wyoming during the MWC days. I haven't done that in years. I would rather see them lose. I take satisfaction in it.

The Utah-BYU rivalry is definitely a bitter one. Hats off to those that can cheer them both on. I am not one of them, and yes, religion plays a heavy role in it.


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## HighNDry

Utah State is going to the Potato Bowl. Does that make them relevant now? Nobody talking about it.

Utah will manhandle BYU. BYU talent for the most part is MWC. Utah has a very slight edge. The difference is in motivating players. Utah is just more motivated than BYU. I don't know how much of it is coaching. I've liked Bronco and what he has done in 11 years at BYU. I think BYU made a mistake when they went independent. They should have stayed in the MWC. With Utah State and Boise State it isn't a bad conference. And for those wnating the "Glory Days" of Lavell Edwards fame, you realize he became a legend by beating WAC and MWC opponents--with a few hallmark wins when they could play some of the bigger name teams.

If BYU would swallow their pride and realize they are MWC caliber, get back in that conference, play for the championship each year all would be well.

Let Utah travel its own road. It will be years before they win a PAC12 championship if ever. They are slightly better in the recruiting over BYU but the great kids will still want to go to USC, UCLA, Oregon, Stanford, and even the Arizona schools over Utah. Utah has been lucky to win last year and this year because the PAC12 teams have all been struggling. It's not that they are beating each other up, the play in the conference has just been a little messy. Once the USC, UCLA, Oregon, Stanford, teams get back to performing, Utah will be left in the dust with Colorado. Every few years the other schools will be rebuilding or suffer injury and Utah will steal a few wins. It's the nature of college football. Lets not play dumb and see the world with red-colored glasses. Utah had a 4 year starter at QB and still stunk offensively. Booker had a great season but it didn't translate into a lot of points.

So I guess the bottom line for me is that I see BYU and Utah for who they really are. BYU needs to get back in the MWC where they can play for championships with the talents they can acquire. Utah needs to realize that the big boy pants may never fit in the PAC12 and revel in just having a chance when the other power schools in the PAC12 have rebuilding years or years with injury.


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## GaryFish

GREAT post HighNDry. 

The only thing I'd disagree on, is I think that BYU is better off as independent, than in the MWC. My reasoning is that they will never compete for a national title. And really, the MWC title means nothing. But they still are playing the top teams in the MWC on a consistent basis - Utah State, Boise State, plus 2-3 others each year seems pretty decent. But instead of their entire schedule being MWC with trips to Laramie, Albacracky, and Fort Collins, they are getting top tier teams - like Michigan, UCLA, and Nebraska this year, Michigan State, Mississippi State, West Virginia, Arizona and UCLA next year, and in 2017, LSU, Wisconsin, Utah, and Mississippi State again. In the MWC, they'd get one, maybe 2 of those kind of opponents per season. And with schedules like that, they'll play for contracted bowl games like the Vegas this year and San Diego next year, and Hawaii the year after that - clearly 2nd or 3rd tier - each year - just like they would in the MWC. But unlike in the MWC - they have total control of their brand, get better TV money, re-broadcast rights, and get to play all across the country in some magnificent venues. That is all better than playing for a MWC title. Ask any player if they'd rather play for a MWC title, or play 4-5 games in places like Lincoln, Death Valley, the Rose Bowl, or Camp Randall. Pretty easy answer to me. The MWC title is kind of like kissing your sister. They might not be invited to the Power 5 prom, but they certainly are getting to date the prom queen and her court as an independent.


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## Catherder

HighNDry said:


> So I guess the bottom line for me is that I see BYU and Utah for who they really are. BYU needs to get back in the MWC where they can play for championships with the talents they can acquire. Utah needs to realize that the big boy pants may never fit in the PAC12 and revel in just having a chance when the other power schools in the PAC12 have rebuilding years or years with injury.


Usually, we disagree over here on the sports board, but I think you really are spot on in your analysis. I really doubt that the U will ever be like USC in football, (who is?) and we Utefans do need to be realistic and enjoy the accomplishments we *have* achieved. Maybe John Huntsman senior will be our Phil Knight for Oregon and things might change a little. ;-) We also have to be realistic that there will be down years too, far lower than what would be the basement in the MWC.

That said, in 3 of 5 years we've been in the conference, we have been in the chase for the division crown until the last or second to last week of the season and it has been a heck of a lot of fun. While cougarfan loves to bring up the 2 years we didn't, I'll gladly take the tradoff from being a big dog in the small pond that is the MWC.

As for the cougs, I really cannot answer this question, as I'm not a cougarfan, but do you/can you accept that your program may never get into a power 5 conference and that you would be a better fit back in the MWC? Or do you guys like it better as it is now where you usually play a half a season of irrelevant games once you have 1-2 losses and your bowl assignment is already cast in stone? It seems to me that cougarfans have not yet come to grips that their rivals currently have something they may never get, entry into the power 5. (full disclosure, I would love if the Y got into the Big 12. I drive past LES every day on the way to work and I might have to attend a few games there when they have a big name in town.)

Top of page!


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## Mr Muleskinner

I certainly don't think that Utah has been "lucky" to win over the past couple of years do to a down conference. First off the Utes have had one of the best defenses in the nations and probably the best special teams in the nation. That is going to give a team a punchers chance every time. If they have had even marginal QB play they would have done much better. Four year starter or not Wilson has stunk overall. So bad in fact that the Utes average run play nets more yards than the Utes average pass attempt..........NOT GOOD.

The PAC 12 has been beating each other up for years. It doesn't mean they have been down. The PAC-12 was 6-2 in bowl games last year (best overall) and 6-3 the year before that. Oregon has played in the national title and Mariota won the Heisman. Something McCaffrey deserves this year but won't win because to most they are considered a "smart team" and not really athletic, that coupled with the fact that most people just are not drawn to watch Stanford due to the time zone and their style of play. They don't have the flash or football name recognition that many other schools have. 

The PAC 12 will be in 10 bowl games this year. It would not surprise me at all to see them go 10-0 in those games. Granted some of the competition is not that great but you can only play who you are set up to play.

Top to bottom the PAC 12 is very strong and balanced. It has been shown week in and week out.


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## GaryFish

For this CougarFan, clearly the Big 12 would be better than being independent. But independent is better than the MWC for the reasons I outlined above. But really, even in the Big 12, I don't see BYU being a top team in any big 5 conference. I think they would at best be a middle of the pack team. In this year's big 12, they'd be better than the Kansas schools and Iowa State, but that is about it. The the MWC, they'd be competing for bowl games worse than the Vegas bowl, so I'm not sure that is a step up. And in a big 5 conference, well, they'd be competing for spots in games like the Vegas Bowl - similar to Utah, or Washington State. So there is that. 

I am one CougarFan though, that sees the overall bigger picture of college football. BYU will NEVER compete for a national title, and I'm OK with that. I've been watching a bunch of the 30 for 30 series on Netflix. There are several about various programs that have won the National Championship in the modern BCS era. Teams like Oklahoma, USC, Miami, Texas, etc... have been featured. What those schools do in order to win like they do, I really hope that BYU AND Utah will never do. If it takes those kinds of things to get a national title, then it isn't worth it.


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## Mr Muleskinner

agreed. I would like to see BYU in the BIG 12 as well. It makes perfect sense to me. I also think independent is better than anything other than a P5 conference for BYU.


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## MuscleWhitefish

HighNDry said:


> Utah State is going to the Potato Bowl. Does that make them relevant now? Nobody talking about it.


5 Straight bowls for a Utah State program that only had 6 total bowls before the 5 bowl run. They have came a long way in a short period of time. Are they on the Utah or BYU level, no. Though, they do make things interesting every year they play the instate schools.


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## LostLouisianian

Mr Muleskinner said:


> agreed. I would like to see BYU in the BIG 12 as well. It makes perfect sense to me. I also think independent is better than anything other than a P5 conference for BYU.


If BYU would get off their high horse attitude they could find another school and go to the BIG12 as a package deal. Any conference needs 2 schools at a time to join. The BIG12 would all but assure itself a place each year in the NC series if they had two more schools with a conference championship game.


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## GaryFish

With the Big 12, it isn't about a high horse at all. Or even a playing partner. A couple years ago, they were real close to bringing BYU and Air Force as playing partners. At that time, the deal killer included 2 things - Sunday play in other sports, and BYU wanted to be able to re-broadcast their own home games - like Texas does - on their own network. And the Big 12 balked at BYU's position on both counts. And BYU will never give in on the Sunday play. They'll drop sports all together before they do that. And that is their call. And I think they could have figured something out on the rebroadcasts - something like a 5 day waiting time after the game was played - something like that. But who knows. 

Right now though, it is a matter of how the pie slices up. The last numbers I saw had each team in the Big 12 getting roughly $30 Million/year with their TV deal. If the Big 12 expands under the current TV deal, then it doesn't expand - but instead causes that $300 million pie to be cut into 12 pieces instead of 10. So to bring any team - BYU or anyone else on board - means every other school takes less money. And at this point, that $30 million/year in revenue becomes the negotiation point - If any team joins the Big 12, do they bring enough TV sets with them to increase the TV package value by $30 million or more. Of the teams that are not currently in a Power 5 conference, I don't think any of them could bring that kind of revenue. I think BYU fares better than about any other team available, but I don't have blue colored glasses to think they could increase the value of the Big 12 by $30 M/Year. So there is no economic incentive to bring on BYU, Air Force, Boise State, Southern Florida, Cincinnati, or any other team that gets talked about. And that is why the Big 12 is stuck on 10 teams. It's not about every team playing every other team, it isn't about travel, it is only about the TV contract and the money to each school. And as long as a Big 12 team can play their way into the CFP like Oklahoma did this year, there is no incentive to expand.


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## GaryFish

What I see as the future though - is that the 5 power conferences will contract into 4. Which really is what was thought was going to happen a few years ago when all the alignment junk happened. I think that the Big 12 will eventually dissolve, and you'll see the 12 Pack expand to 16 - adding Oklahoma & Oklahoma State, and Texas and Texas Tech (remember that Stanford has expressed opposition to any religions school in the conference, so that would count out Baylor and TCU). Then you'll see West Virginia and Iowa State join the Big 10 (taking them to 16). You'll also see the ACC and SEC each pick up two more teams - so then there will be 4 - 16 team conferences, each with 2 eight team divisions, with a play-off. Essentially that equates into an 8 team play-off, with each conference champion going into the CFP system. BYU's only hope for a Power 5 conference is the Big 12, and that hope will vanish, as BYU will be left out of the system. And at that point, the number of D1 schools goes from 130 like there are now, to the 64 in the four new mega conferences. Everyone else will be a second tier program.


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## LostLouisianian

GaryFish said:


> What I see as the future though - is that the 5 power conferences will contract into 4. Which really is what was thought was going to happen a few years ago when all the alignment junk happened. I think that the Big 12 will eventually dissolve, and you'll see the 12 Pack expand to 16 - adding Oklahoma & Oklahoma State, and Texas and Texas Tech (remember that Stanford has expressed opposition to any religions school in the conference, so that would count out Baylor and TCU). Then you'll see West Virginia and Iowa State join the Big 10 (taking them to 16). You'll also see the ACC and SEC each pick up two more teams - so then there will be 4 - 16 team conferences, each with 2 eight team divisions, with a play-off. Essentially that equates into an 8 team play-off, with each conference champion going into the CFP system. BYU's only hope for a Power 5 conference is the Big 12, and that hope will vanish, as BYU will be left out of the system. And at that point, the number of D1 schools goes from 130 like there are now, to the 64 in the four new mega conferences. Everyone else will be a second tier program.


If that's the case I still think you have to somehow find a place for BYU and Notre Dame in that Super 4 scenario.


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## GaryFish

Notre Dame will join the ACC. They are almost there as it is.


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## hazmat

Go utes


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## LostLouisianian

This just in on ESPN. University of Virginia fires Bronco Mendenhall. jk


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## Critter

LostLouisianian said:


> This just in on ESPN. University of Virginia fires Bronco Mendenhall. jk


And as a side note Kalani Sitake is rethinking his decision......


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## Catherder

Critter said:


> And as a side note Kalani Sitake is rethinking his decision......


Or maybe not. Props to the cougs for not quitting and making it way too close. Nevertheless, we won the way we have all year. Defense, special teams, defibrillation.

Oddly, the outcome may actually leave both fan bases with a positive vibe.


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## Critter

I have to admit that if it wasn't for those turnovers in the first half the Y would of done it, perhaps. 

I liked Whitinghams remarks after the game, "we have to fix the offense"


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## MuscleWhitefish

Critter said:


> I have to admit that if it wasn't for those turnovers in the first half the Y would of done it, perhaps.
> 
> I liked Whitinghams remarks after the game, "we have to fix the offense"


He better or people will be calling for his job like Les Miles.


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## LostLouisianian

Toward the end of the 4th quarter I texted a friend and told him Wittingham had been secretly replaced by Les Miles at halftime


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## BigT

Incredible start..... Defense was amazing! But like every Utah game, wore out as the game went on as the offense was pathetic!

Yeah Coach Whitt needs to fix the offense. There's no doubt there. The offensive line finally got the push they needed when they needed it the most to salt the game away. Glad Utah won, and a great comeback by BYU. Most teams would have laid over and died after that first quarter. If Utah had a resemblance of an offense, this comeback would not be talked about. Hoping Troy Williams, and this Huntley kid bring some good quarterback play to Utah. 

Great day for the Ute's. A win over Duke in NYC, and a 5th straight win over the rival.


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## HighNDry

I think Whit was thoroughly embarrassed after the game and his post came comments indicated it. Funny game. Unbearable to watch for the first 8 minutes for the Cougars but then unbearable to watch the rest of the game as a Ute.

For me, I would be more embarrassed for this performance if I was a Utah fan even with the win. The Utah defense is being touted a winning the game which they did, but then they gave up almost 400 yards the rest of the game. BYU shut down the Ute offense which isn't saying much either since they don't have one. 

My take away from the game: Utah is still a top level MWC team as is BYU. Once the PAC12 gets back to full strength Utah will struggle with Colorado to get wins. BYU will continue to win a few quality games and lose a few. Right now, I would rather watch what BYU has going on than Utah. Utah is like watching two guys fish.


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## GaryFish

I think the two programs are a whole lot closer than will be admitted, both in where the program is, the quality of players, and strength of the team. Only one game in the last 10 years or so has been a total blow out. The rest have been a 1 score difference. 

Either way - I do love college football. And no offense to the Aggies in their game today, but I really am not all that excited about it. Other than the play-off and major games, I'm looking most forward to the TCU-Oregon game. That should be a fun one.


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## Catherder

GaryFish said:


> I think the two programs are a whole lot closer than will be admitted, both in where the program is, the quality of players, and strength of the team. Only one game in the last 10 years or so has been a total blow out. The rest have been a 1 score difference.


2 actually. 8) 54-10 and the 48-27 "they dumped beer on Max Hall's family on the way to the Sugar Bowl" game. However, point taken. I don't think Roscoe left the cupboard bare. Could you imagine what the Utes would have done this year if we had Mangum and say 1 or 2 of those tall coug receivers?

So tell me Gary, what do cougarfans think about Sitake? Most of the cougarfans in my neck of the woods weren't too talkative with me yesterday, but I think he is a good hire. I liked him a lot when he was at the U. Maybe the hire will help improve the civility of the rivalry too.

Top of page!


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## HighNDry

What! You don't want my take on Sitake?

Well, you get it anyway: Sitake will have to change quite a lot to be a head coach. Being an assistant is way different and guys like Sitake thrive as assistants because they can get more on the players level. As a head coach, there is a certain amount of pressure to be a little more stoic, level-headed, and "mature." I know I'll take heat on the mature comment, but a head coach ends up in the media a lot and they have to "please" the fans, the school, the AD, and in BYU's case the Church. It will be a tough job for Sitake. He might even have to shave his facial hair.


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## Billy Mumphrey

I think Sitake will do great. I'd be very happy if he were the eventual replacement for Whittingham after Whitt retires and Sitake gets his HC legs at BYU.


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## Mr Muleskinner

I think Sitake will be a fine head coach and IMO do a better job recruiting than Bronco has done. Good move at the right time for him and BYU.


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## GaryFish

Im optimistic. Most of the time, coaching changes happen because a program is down. Like it or hate it, but BYU has been a solid program, well run, and lots of good young talent there. I would agree that there will be learning curve on being the head coach. But he has worked for several good ones, and I'm sure will blend what he has learned from them all into his own style. 

As I've said many times, I don't expect BYU to compete for a national title. It just won't happen. I expect a program consistent with the values of the school, that is entertaining to watch, and wins more than they lose. I think Sitake can deliver that and do it with enthusiasm and class, and in his own way.


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## 2full

He did shave and got a nice haircut. :mrgreen:


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## Catherder

HighNDry said:


> What! You don't want my take on Sitake?
> 
> Well, you get it anyway: Sitake will have to change quite a lot to be a head coach. Being an assistant is way different and guys like Sitake thrive as assistants because they can get more on the players level. As a head coach, there is a certain amount of pressure to be a little more stoic, level-headed, and "mature." I know I'll take heat on the mature comment, but a head coach ends up in the media a lot and they have to "please" the fans, the school, the AD, and in BYU's case the Church. It will be a tough job for Sitake. He might even have to shave his facial hair.


Sorry, no offense intended, and sure I want to hear your take. You are definitely a certified cougarfan around here. ;-) A couple of comments.

1. First, as was noted, he was fully shaven for the presser today. So much for that question. ;-)

2. RE" As a head coach, there is a certain amount of pressure to be a little more stoic, level-headed, and "mature."

I have occasionally wondered why Roscoe always seemed to act like a mix between Lavell Edwards and a General Authority and if it was the "real" Roscoe or if he was told or was implied that it was the "expected" behavior. In the long run, I don't think it was a positive aspect of the Mendenhall era as it seemed to irritate alumni, the media and outsiders.

3. RE" I would agree that there will be learning curve on being the head coach."

Like I said before, I agree with you guys that he will do well. The main "concern" I would have though is if frustrated cougarfans and administration will give him some time. The cougs schedule next year is pretty rough, and the fan base has the added frustration of 0-5 in the rivalry and the aggravations associated with being a non p5 independent. I think eventually, his recruiting classes will be quite solid, probably superior to Mendenhalls, and the cougs have a chance to be formidable.


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## Rspeters

I think MOST (not all) BYU fans understand that next year could be a rough one. Personally my expectations are fairly low when you consider the schedule and the fact that he's a new coach coaching Mendenhall's recruits. Right now for me I'm closely watching who he brings in as the Offensive Coordinator. That can make or break the next couple of seasons (or longer) at BYU.


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## Mr Muleskinner

The Utes have an offensive coordinator that I wouldn't mind seeing move south.


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## LostLouisianian

As a Utes fan I wish the cougars well. It will probably take 2-3 years for him to settle in and get things on the right track again so I see a little disappointment in the cougar nation until then. It is always a gamble when you give a coordinator his first head coaching gig so we will see how much rope the athletic department gives him.


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