# Hard Deck Ethics



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

This is the first season I'm seeing heavy impact on the ice. Yesterday I encountered packaging frozen into the deck at more than half the previously used sites. I saw one big site in which they just left an entire fire pit in place and froze splits into the holes. I'm using to seeing small stuff around but my two trips year are different.

Is it common most places for people to leave so much garbage? I pick up what I can but I just can't understand the laziness of what I saw.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Sad to see, but is the Utard fisherman that make it look like their own home. Last year at Pineview a 6 person shelter with at least 8 people were fishing near me. They picked up and left an hour before I did. When I was walking back to the truck, I crossed where they were at and they used the shelter for a chitter and pisser for the women. Toilet paper and, yup.... Chit on the ice. I wish I could have found out who they were, (besides trashy basstards) and I would have rubbed their nose in the chit.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Unfortunately, dirtbags like to ice fish too and messes like you describe are often seen. IDK if ice enthusiasts are any more trashy than other angler or hunter groups though.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Fly fishermen are probably the messiest out of all the anglers.

arguments coming in 3… 2… 1…


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

Ray said:


> Fly fishermen are probably the messiest out of all the anglers.
> 
> arguments coming in 3… 2… 1…


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Catherder said:


> Unfortunately, dirtbags like to ice fish too and messes like you describe are often seen. IDK if ice enthusiasts are any more trashy than other angler or hunter groups though.


I rarely fished weekends my first two years so that probably plays into the difference I'm noticing.

I doubt its any worse than most groups it was just a wake up call. I've stumbled into plenty of messes doing just about anything outside. Just a little more noticeable given the realities of ice fishing, ie less dispersed.

Al that said, I just can't fathom defecating on or into the hard deck like taxidermist mentioned. That's foul.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Well....just like we've seen with trail cameras, it's the few that ruin it for all.

Might I suggest a couple new laws, that would certainly reduce the amount of trash left on the ice during ice fishing season?

A. outlaw the use of shelters from November - April. Shelters provide too much opportunity to do things "out of view" of others, which results in more opportunities for law breaking (litter, drugs, etc.).

B. outlaw the use of sleds from November - April for the purposes of hauling gear. The more "stuff" you haul out on the ice, the more opportunity to leave said "stuff" on the ice when you leave and are tired.


I think I'll write my congressman.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

PBH said:


> Well....just like we've seen with trail cameras, it's the few that ruin it for all.
> 
> Might I suggest a couple new laws, that would certainly reduce the amount of trash left on the ice during ice fishing season?
> 
> ...


I like your train of thought. More rules and regulations is what we all need. Proof of vaccination and masks should also be required from anyone who wishes to recreate in the wilds of Utah.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I'm definitely guessing the average prude like me isn't going to pop a squat in public view, that's for sure.

No shelters would thin out the herd, so to speak. 😬 Given I've only used mine line 10% of the time I wouldn't really be affected but I'd put good money others would line up for some "fun" DWR meetings.

I've never seen the defecation but totally believe it. A small minority of users seem to find unique ways to "Leave All Trace" of their presence. 

I am shocked we don't have more of a presence on the lakes. I've only seen one CO in 4 years (he balanced interaction well), but that's more than Ice seen fishing the rest of the season.

Nothing new though. My dad and grandpa would tell stories about losing fishing buddies in the 60-70s when they would call out sinking beer bottles or soda cans on the lakes and rivers they fished.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I bet with all the cans of cream corn that were dropped into Strawberry over the last 20 years, would rival any Walmart supper store canned veggie isle.

In the 70's if you didn't have flipper crotch in your tackle box you didn't come prepared.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Litter has always been an issue, but the noise pollution bothers me most. When I took young kids and/or my wife and daughter, far too many times guys set-up close enough to hear all the trash coming out of their mouths. I rarely set up close to people, but for some reason people tend to want to fish close to other people. At Joe's Valley a couple years ago, my daughter and I walked far away from the others on the ice. An hour later a group of dudes walk out and drill close enough that that I could hear them talking with colorful language about the ***-capades the night before. So I struck up a conversation with the daughter and we moved a few hundred yards further away. Sound sure travels across the ice. 
Don't worry, the daughter is now in high school and probably hears stuff everyday.....


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The last time that I was up at Jordanelle Reservoir a few years ago right after Thanksgiving I walked the shore and picked up around 20 lbs of lead sinkers that I plan on turning into muzzle loader bullets. 

You have to face it. There are a lot of trashy fishermen out there. Just look at the amount of line, worm containers, power bait jars, and other things that get left along the shore of any Reservoir during the seasons.


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## TOgden (Sep 10, 2007)

My wife and I used to do a lot of backpacking in the Uintah's and it was so disappointing how much trash we would find. You expect the wilderness area to be just that, wilderness, not somebody's idea of a land fill.

Why is it that they can pack an item it in when it's full and they can't pack it out when it's empty?

It shows a complete lack of respect for the great outdoors and other people.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

backcountry said:


> I am shocked we don't have more of a presence on the lakes. I've only seen one CO in 4 years (he balanced interaction well), but that's more than Ice seen fishing the rest of the season.


I have fished literally hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands) of days in Utah in my life. I have had a total of two interactions with conservation officers in all those days. One day I got my license checked up at Strawberry while walking the bank fishing for cruisers at ice off. The other was in Provo Canyon fishing the Lower Provo and they did not even check my license, but they encouraged me to keep a limit of fish. 

That's it. Manpower is a real issue, but I also think they don't make that a real priority.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Packout,

I'm sorry to hear of those experiences. The hard deck is definitely a unique auditorium for such noise and conversation. I have yet to have to move away from folks but I normally give a ton of distance from the most crowded spots. I really like my solitude as an introvert. I go on the ice to recharge.

Vanilla,

Funding enough COs to have regular contact would be an interesting expense report to see. We are such a big state with resources spread out geographically.

But I agree, I think it's not a huge priority. Don't mean that as an insult but mostly a reflection that we all know "most" fisherman/hunters are a solid, thoughtful bunch. It's tough to expend so many resources to police a small subset.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

backcountry said:


> Vanilla,
> 
> Funding enough COs to have regular contact would be an interesting expense report to see. We are such a big state with resources spread out geographically.
> 
> But I agree, I think it's not a huge priority. Don't mean that as an insult but mostly a reflection that we all know "most" fisherman/hunters are a solid, thoughtful bunch. It's tough to expend so many resources to police a small subset.


They definitely don't have the manpower to constantly police the whole state. But how many times have I fished Strawberry, the most used water in the state, and only been checked one time? 









New data shows uptick in big game animals illegally killed in Utah during 2021


Data released by Utah's leading wildlife agency signals an uptick of big game and trophy animals killed in 2021, but wildlife officials say that doesn't necessarily mean there's a spike.




www.ksl.com





The first time I saw an article like this I had no idea it included fish, but they do. In 2021 they account for 374 fish illegally taken. 374 fish, that's it. I call that a slow Saturday at the Berry, let alone all waters of the state.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I've only ever been license checked once fishing in Utah--on the ice at Yuba. I've never been checked hunting in Utah.

Yes, Utah is a good sized state, and doesn't properly fund COs for effective wildlife management.

BUT... The finances of the state of Utah are better managed than many states (including Alaska), with budget surpluses not being uncommon.

By comparison, I get license checked fishing on creeks and rivers about 1:5 trips in Alaska, checked while ice fishing at least 10x per season, and have been license checked at least a dozen times while hunting up here. I can't think of a location that I've hunted or fished up here that I haven't been license checked. Including once when I was hiking way back in the middle of nowhere and had a trooper's plane land on the ridge to do a license check. Alaska is ~7x the size of Utah, with a much smaller tax base. And we have struggled with state budget deficits for the past 6 years.

To me that means there could be better funding for wildlife enforcement in Utah, but there's just not the desire to do so in the powers that be.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I don’t even think there needs to be more funding if you want to see better enforcement. Just alter the priorities a little. 

Of course it would be good to double the number of COs out there. I’d be all for that. Without a change in priorities, they’d still be too underfunded to do effective license/creep checks.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh, are we not supposed to "defund the police" now? LOL

Last year at Strawberry fishing Kokes, the wife and I were checked all but two trips. Checked on the rifle elk hunt and the ML deer last year. I thanked the officers and did mention they needed to be out and about more often. I have *never *been checked ice fishing in over 30 years. Maybe they should get on a machine, buddy up, and cruise the ice huts doing checks. Maybe they do, but, I have yet to see it.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Just out of curiosity -- it sounds to me like you guys think that fishing without a license is a big issue in Utah. is that correct?

Personally, I don't think that "not being checked" is accurate. I do think that you probably have been "observed" while fishing. I also think that it's possible that license plates of vehicles in parking areas are looked at, names run through checks, etc. 

For me, I try to follow all of the laws and rules, so I don't feel like I need to be "checked". It would be a waste of time for an officer to come ask me for my license, because I always have a legal license with me. However, if I were out smoking a joint while fishing? Then maybe there would be a good reason to be approached and "checked". 

FWIW -- I went with the DWR a couple years ago to Fish Lake for a "blitz". Basically, they had a bunch of LEOs all dressed in plain old snow clothes. We all jumped on ATVs, with sleds full of fishing gear. We went out on the ice, they set up a couple tents, and then they started watching all the other anglers out on the ice.

Just because a LEO didn't walk up to you and speak with you doesn't mean you haven't been "checked". But, I get it, sometimes we want that presence of a uniformed officer out making contact.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

PBH said:


> Just out of curiosity -- it sounds to me like you guys think that fishing without a license is a big issue in Utah. is that correct?
> 
> Personally, I don't think that "not being checked" is accurate. I do think that you probably have been "observed" while fishing. I also think that it's possible that license plates of vehicles in parking areas are looked at, names run through checks, etc.
> 
> ...


 This X100


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I don't know about others- but when I drive- and pretty much every time I'm with someone else who is driving- and a police vehicle is seen, we slow down. Doesn't matter if we are going the under or over the speed limit, we slow down. Something to be said about enforcement by simply being visible.

In Utah, I've been checked fishing a handful of times, hunting a handful of times. I think the officers do the best they can. I have also sat in meetings where it has been stated that they don't have the man power to cover their areas. It is more than just ice fishing. Such as illegal/non-approved activities on WMAs is an issue.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Packout said:


> I have also sat in meetings where it has been stated that they don't have the man power to cover their areas.


If that is the case, then why do we want them to waste what time they do have checking anglers for licenses? Don't they have "bigger fish to fry"? Again -- do you guys think license infractions are a big issue??


I won't argue with the visibility deterrent. No question about that. I just don't understand why people _want to be checked_ when they aren't doing anything wrong.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I must look like some sort of a dirtbag while out fishing. I have been "checked" multiple times while fishing. Several times while ice fishing at Strawberry, a couple of times on the hard deck at Fish lake, a time or two elsewhere. A couple of years ago, the CO kind of snuck up to me at Jordanelle while I was getting ready to launch. I had my waders on and my paper license was in the recesses of my wallet below my wading belt. It gave me a chance to use my handy-dandy phone app though. Maybe I seemed suspicious because I was startled. 🤷‍♂️ I have been checked twice while big game hunting. Both times were in the Book Cliffs the two times I had an antlerless elk tag for there. 



PBH said:


> FWIW -- I went with the DWR a couple years ago to Fish Lake for a "blitz". Basically, they had a bunch of LEOs all dressed in plain old snow clothes. We all jumped on ATVs, with sleds full of fishing gear. We went out on the ice, they set up a couple tents, and then they started watching all the other anglers out on the ice.
> 
> Just because a LEO didn't walk up to you and speak with you doesn't mean you haven't been "checked". But, I get it, sometimes we want that presence of a uniformed officer out making contact.


I like when they do this. Many years ago, we were ice fishing Scofield. A couple of Good-ol-boys sauntered down to "fish". They were more intent on emptying the 24 pack of Natty light they brought with them and before long they had cans strewn all around where they were fishing. Unbeknownst to them (and everyone else there) one of our fellow angling "groups" was a CO group like you describe. The CO came over, checked their licenses, and told them they had 10 minutes to clean up all the beer cans or they would get a ticket for littering. The GOB's wisely complied and left.


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## TOgden (Sep 10, 2007)

PBH said:


> Just out of curiosity -- it sounds to me like you guys think that fishing without a license is a big issue in Utah. is that correct?


You probably live in the region with the most citations written for fishing without a license because of the Nevada and California crowd. They are smart enough to know that it's just as cheap to take a chance of not getting caught as it is to purchase a nonresident license. The CO's stated that sometimes a person would be cited one day and be right back out the next day still without a valid license.

Your right about being observed without being checked. I have plenty of time to observe myself when I'm out in my tube and there have been a lot of times and at a lot of different locations I've seen the CO's parked and watching for suspicious activity.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> I won't argue with the visibility deterrent. No question about that. I just don't understand why people _want to be checked_ when they aren't doing anything wrong.


If you really understand what visible enforcement does, and there’s really no question about it as you posted above, then why ask a question? Seems pretty self explanatory based on your own posts. This one isn’t that tough to comprehend. 

But just to humor you since this one seems to be hard for you - I don’t WANT to be checked while I’m doing nothing wrong, but I’m willing to be checked so they can catch others that are doing something wrong. It’s not just valid licenses. That’s a way to look into other things. You think that highway patrol trooper gives a crap about that broken tail light you got pulled over for? Nope, they don’t. But it gave them a reason to look for something else. And those things do matter. 

High visibility enforcement has been proven to be one the most efficient deterrents to illegal behavior that there is. Preventing the illegal take of wildlife in Utah seems like a noble cause to me.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

'Nilla -- thank you. That's what I hoped to hear. When you say "I've never been checked", it isn't because you want to be checked, it's because you aren't seeing any law enforcement officers out-and-about. So, it isn't a gripe that LEOs are being "lazy" not doing their jobs -- it's just simply that you aren't seeing them doing their jobs.

We hear people quite frequently complain about LEOs being lazy and just sitting in their trucks staying warm, not doing their jobs. These are the complaints I don't like. Visibility alone certainly is a deterrent, and that truck sitting on the hill watching a group of people fishing certainly is being "checked". The problem is when there are no trucks to be found at all. 

That's an issue that may not have a simple remedy.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

*Personally, I don't think that "not being checked" is accurate. I do think that you probably have been "observed" while fishing. I also think that it's possible that license plates of vehicles in parking areas are looked at, names run through checks, etc.*

I like your thinking! I believe when they show a face on the ice, (or wherever) others visually see this. Makes a difference IMO.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

You’ve never heard me accuse our wildlife LEOs of being lazy. I do think they could do a better job in the visibility (yes, checking licenses is part of that) but that isn’t necessarily the individual officers fault. And it’s not because they are lazy. They need a change in priorities, and that comes from above. 

And that change in priorities would make a difference. And yes, give them more resources. I’m on board with that too.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Sorry PBH- we all just thought it was common sense that people don't want to be checked. You made that go-around a lot harder than it needed to be. There was a sentence before the quote which stated the COs do the best they can. You're good at this internet stuff. ; )
And for the record, when someone says it isn't a priority- maybe his statement has nothing to do with the individual CO. Maybe it isn't a priority higher up the food chain with those who could fund more officers, which in turn would make it more of a priority....


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

And that change in priorities would make a difference. And yes, *give them more resources.* I’m on board with that too.

Bump the app fees to $15-$20 and there's the resource for a few more officers.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I'm definitely not being asked to be checked more either. As others have said its just the benefit of visual presence. I've had great and professional interactions with COs myself (I'm not a lowly dirtbag like Catherder) and believe it just helps to see them out and about. 

And I'd be fine with a fee increase if it meant resourcing them more.

I figured they kept an eye but had no clue they did such blitzes like you describe. For some reason my mind went to Reno 911 on Ice (not the failed Disney show).


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Here's the closest I've ever been to being checked by a CO in Utah while hunting. 

Had killed a cow elk that morning, we were driving to drop it off at camp and saw a CO pulled over looking at something with binos. We stopped to see what caught his attention and were surprised to see a young bull moose near Old Folks Flat in Huntington Canyon. We got out and talked with him, blood on our shirts, and hooves sticking out the back of the truck. After several minutes we decided it was time to get going, and so I asked if he wanted to check our licenses. All he said was no. Didn't ever ask about the blood, if he saw the hooves he didn't give any sign of interest. 

All in that was...interesting.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Here's the closest I've ever been to being checked by a CO in Utah while hunting.
> 
> Had killed a cow elk that morning, we were driving to drop it off at camp and saw a CO pulled over looking at something with binos. We stopped to see what caught his attention and were surprised to see a young bull moose near Old Folks Flat in Huntington Canyon. We got out and talked with him, blood on our shirts, and hooves sticking out the back of the truck. After several minutes we decided it was time to get going, and so I asked if he wanted to check our licenses. All he said was no. Didn't ever ask about the blood, if he saw the hooves he didn't give any sign of interest.
> 
> All in that was...interesting.


Maybe he concluded that such an interaction with what you described, a group of hunters wouldn't have the balls to do what you guys did without being legal and in proper order. ?


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Ray said:


> Fly fishermen are probably the messiest out of all the anglers.
> 
> arguments coming in 3… 2… 1…


Ray, that's just darn right Trollish. Looks like you didn't get any takers.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Here's the closest I've ever been to being checked by a CO in Utah while hunting.
> 
> Had killed a cow elk that morning, we were driving to drop it off at camp and saw a CO pulled over looking at something with binos. We stopped to see what caught his attention and were surprised to see a young bull moose near Old Folks Flat in Huntington Canyon. We got out and talked with him, blood on our shirts, and hooves sticking out the back of the truck. After several minutes we decided it was time to get going, and so I asked if he wanted to check our licenses. All he said was no. Didn't ever ask about the blood, if he saw the hooves he didn't give any sign of interest.
> 
> All in that was...interesting.


Not all people driving around in DWR trucks are in enforcement, most are biologist that won't get involved unless they see some sort of obvious infraction.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Regarding visibility, johnnycakes story, and BPturkeys reply:

There was a time, way back in the "olden days", when the general public didn't seem too concerned about DWR employees driving their state issued vehicles around the town, or even up on the mountain. Today that is a big "no-no". And yet, I think, other law enforcement agencies seem to be more relaxed on some personal use of vehicles (city police, sheriff's, etc.). Is this correct?

Maybe to help address the visibility aspect, we should allow our LEOs, as well as other positions (biologists, managers, etc.) to drive their DWR vehicles around? Maybe that would provide the very visual presence that everyone is asking for without having to hire more LEOs? Of course, maybe those employees would rather have a nice weekend without the general public bugging them as soon as they pull up in a DWR vehicle...

Just thinking out loud.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I'm 100% supportive of LEOs or COs drive such vehicles home. The logistics of their jobs just seem to justify it.

Others, no, unless it's logistically justified (ex, house on way to meeting the next day). We couldn't as field staff with the USFS and it made total sense. 

But I'll fully admit I'm biased as I disagree with a lot of civil servant benefits. But that's a different story.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

BPturkeys said:


> Not all people driving around in DWR trucks are in enforcement, most are biologist that won't get involved unless they see some sort of obvious infraction.


Biologists don't tend to introduce themselves as "Officer ...."

He was 100% a CO.


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