# Don't forget your HO cougar tag



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Don't forget to get your harvest objective cougar tag, they became available today.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Waste of money ....

Even running hound dogs, I've never bought one..:!:..


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Please Explain to us who are less knowledgable why it is a waste. ------SS


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

Goofy chases cats with dogs. If everyone gets an HO tag and goes out killing cats he won't have cats around for his dogs to chase......just a thought.

Ill be getting my tag, you just never know when the opportunity will present itself.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I have a good friend who is a guide in NV. They have killed every cougar that has made a track on the range near his home for 16 years. You should see the Muleys they are killing there now......better and bigger each year. I wonder if there is a connection? I've never been a kill em all kind of guy, but would be willing to try anything for better deer. Plus, I grew up in Cali where there has always been a moratorium on lions so it does my heart good to see a few hit the dirt. --------SS


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

cklspencer said:


> Goofy chases cats with dogs. If everyone gets an HO tag and goes out killing cats he won't have cats around for his dogs to chase......just a thought.


It's kinda already happened, I think that was Goofy's point.

You boys have at 'em. I'll watch for all the photos to be posted of scrawny little females and half grown yearlings and reminisce about how it used to be.


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## royta (Sep 26, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> Plus, I grew up in Cali where there has always been a moratorium on lions so it does my heart good to see a few hit the dirt. --------SS


Yep, me too, in Siskiyou County. That state is thick with lions. What a mess.


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## horn hunter (Oct 30, 2013)

The only reason goofy thinks it's a waste of money is because you actually have to hunt to find a cat worth killing. And no one likes to "hunt" anymore. They just want a slam dunk kill. It's not easy, but it's still do-able.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> I have a good friend who is a guide in NV. They have killed every cougar that has made a track on the range near his home for 16 years. You should see the Muleys they are killing there now......better and bigger each year. I wonder if there is a connection?


To answer your question, probably not. Predation by lions does not significantly alter the age or sex structure of the deer population in a given area from the studies I've seen. So if they are killing bigger and bigger bucks off a particular range every year implying that the age structure has been altered SS, it is likely due to some other cause besides killing every cougar that shows up. Just saying....

Just so no one gets the wrong impression, I'm not against hunting lions. They are a worthy trophy animal and are fun to chase. But don't go into it thinking you are going to rescue the deer herd by killing one.....you won't. It's been almost 20 years now since Utah has adopted an aggressive policy towards cougars, and the deer herd today has shown little if any improvement.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I drew a coveted Wasatch cat tag back in 2009. I thought it was going to be in the bag to kill a good tom. I hunted 25 days that season, worked with some great houndsmen. We treed 2 cats, both were big juveniles, right on the edge of adulthood. I passed on both. The last day I hunted in April I had two different houndsmen to go with, I chose the wrong one, because the other guy treed a good Tom that I would have taken. This is considered one of the best cat tags in the state (back then it took 10 pts to draw) and I sure had a hard time finding a big tom. I hunted hard though and have no regrets. It sure was harder than I thought it was going to be. Take this for what it is worth-- I am no houndsmen but that was my experience.

I have heard some folks say that the harvest objective makes it easier to poach, being that you can run cats on LE units without a tag legally, and if you happen to tree a good cat you could kill it and your only risk of getting caught is on your way to the highway, once you get on the road you are free and clear--go check in your cat, lie about the location and are free to brag it up the rest of your days. I hope this never happens, but have been told it happens more than most want to admit.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

horn hunter said:


> The only reason goofy thinks it's a waste of money is because you actually have to hunt to find a cat worth killing. And no one likes to "hunt" anymore. They just want a slam dunk kill. It's not easy, but it's still do-able.


horn hunter,

I've seen lion hunts in my life were people almost lost their life's ...

Inculeding mine....

" Actually have to hunt " ????? What a joke!----Clueless.


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## horn hunter (Oct 30, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> " Actually have to hunt " ????? What a joke!----Clueless.


This is coming from the guy who turned a LE archery elk tag in because he couldn't find one to kill....... In the summer! Haha you didn't want a hard hunt and the idea of eating a tag scared you. So instead of accepting a hard challenge (which is what all bow hunts should be) you quit. Same deal with lions.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Had that same LE tag in 2004,,,,

Hunted 17 days.....and killed 'Goofyelk' ...

With my (at that time) 8 year old boy 9 yards from that bull when the arrow flew!

Lions, HA , thats a GOOD one.....
I've seen more lions die than everone else on this forum put together...


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## horn hunter (Oct 30, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> Had that same LE tag in 2004,,,,
> 
> Hunted 17 days.....and killed 'Goofyelk' ...
> 
> ...


And your point? You may have seen more lions killed, but I know of few of these guys have seen more treed. All I'm saying is too many people want just the kill and not the actual hunt. And just because the kill isn't easy, it's not "worth it".


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

horn hunter said:


> And your point? You may have seen more lions killed, but I know of few of these guys have seen more treed. All I'm saying is too many people want just the kill and not the actual hunt. And just because the kill isn't easy, it's not "worth it".


*BS!*


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> I have a good friend who is a guide in NV. They have killed every cougar that has made a track on the range near his home for 16 years. You should see the Muleys they are killing there now......better and bigger each year. I wonder if there is a connection? I've never been a kill em all kind of guy, but would be willing to try anything for better deer. Plus, I grew up in Cali where there has always been a moratorium on lions so it does my heart good to see a few hit the dirt. --------SS


So what range is this? If you don't mind saying, send me a PM.

I have a bunch of NV bonus points to burn.
Thanks


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## Razkul99 (Oct 29, 2009)

*Utah Lion Hunt Success*

I took this lion in an area that no longer has a limted entry season and went to harvest objective this year.

PM me if you want more details. Happy hunting!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Razkul99 said:


> I took this lion in an area that no longer has a limted entry season and went to harvest objective this year.
> 
> PM me if you want more details. Happy hunting!


Good looking cat!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

blackdog said:


> So what range is this? If you don't mind saying, send me a PM.
> 
> I have a bunch of NV bonus points to burn.
> Thanks





Springville Shooter said:


> I have a good friend who is a guide in NV. They have killed every cougar that has made a track on the range near his home for 16 years. You should see the Muleys they are killing there now......better and bigger each year. I wonder if there is a connection? I've never been a kill em all kind of guy, but would be willing to try anything for better deer. Plus, I grew up in Cali where there has always been a moratorium on lions so it does my heart good to see a few hit the dirt. --------SS


Mule deer are increasing through out the West right now. And it has nothing to do with reduced lion numbers. Study after study has shown that lowering lion and coyote numbers over the last 30 years, could not increase mule deer numbers.

In California, there has not always been a moratorium on lion hunting. In 1990 California voters made it illegal for the public to hunt lions, another classic case of why science is the best way to manage wildlife, not legislatures, not voter initiatives, and certainly not based on how people feel about it. That goes for bunny buggers, and polls of "hunter satisfaction" in regard to "quality". California still has about the same number of lions as they did in 1990, and ironically, for those that pushed this initiative, they still kill just as many lions, but the public is not allowed to hunt them.

Blacktail and mule deer numbers are on the upswing in California also.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Kevin D said:


> To answer your question, probably not. Predation by lions does not significantly alter the age or sex structure of the deer population in a given area from the studies I've seen. So if they are killing bigger and bigger bucks off a particular range every year implying that the age structure has been altered SS, it is likely due to some other cause besides killing every cougar that shows up. Just saying....
> 
> Just so no one gets the wrong impression, I'm not against hunting lions. They are a worthy trophy animal and are fun to chase. But don't go into it thinking you are going to rescue the deer herd by killing one.....you won't. It's been almost 20 years now since Utah has adopted an aggressive policy towards cougars, and the deer herd today has shown little if any improvement.


Not only that, studies have shown that females and sub-adult lions, target weak and diseased deer. This has been specifically demonstrated with deer that have CWD. So with an increasing deer herd, that is overcoming sub-clinical disease, and reproductive issues, killing lions can actually be more detrimental, than doing any good. Specifically if we kill females and sub-adults. Many of these deer that these female and sub-adult lions kill, need to be culled. This benefits the herds health, and leads to long term vigor. I'm not against hunting lions, I have it on my list of things to do in life, but killing lions under the guise of improving things for deer, is a fallacy.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

blackdog said:


> So what range is this? If you don't mind saying, send me a PM.
> 
> I have a bunch of NV bonus points to burn.
> Thanks


PM Sent.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

royta said:


> Yep, me too, in Siskiyou County. That state is thick with lions. What a mess.


So are you a Weed, Yreka, or MT Shasta guy? Or maybe Montague, Hornbrook, or McCloud? I know it well. Heck, I logged it well! Hunted and fished it too. In fact I just fished the Klamath for Steelhead this week. EPiC!------SS


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## royta (Sep 26, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> So are you a Weed, Yreka, or MT Shasta guy? Or maybe Montague, Hornbrook, or McCloud? I know it well. Heck, I logged it well! Hunted and fished it too. In fact I just fished the Klamath for Steelhead this week. EPiC!------SS


PM sent


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Lonetree said:


> *Mule deer are increasing through out the West right now.* And it has nothing to do with reduced lion numbers. Study after study has shown that lowering lion and coyote numbers over the last 30 years, could not increase mule deer numbers.
> 
> In California, there has not always been a moratorium on lion hunting. In 1990 California voters made it illegal for the public to hunt lions, another classic case of why science is the best way to manage wildlife, not legislatures, not voter initiatives, and certainly not based on how people feel about it. That goes for bunny buggers, and polls of "hunter satisfaction" in regard to "quality". California still has about the same number of lions as they did in 1990, and ironically, for those that pushed this initiative, they still kill just as many lions, but the public is not allowed to hunt them.
> 
> *Blacktail and mule deer numbers are on the upswing in California also*.


Yes and no. The northern and eastern migratory herds are in a hard decline. Some areas of the state resident deer populations are actually increasing, but I suspect that is mostly the Blacktail Deer. It's difficult to find solid info for the two deer species in Cali since they include both in many of their population figures and trends. Overall, Californias deer herd is down appx 80 percent since it peaked sometime in the sixties, with current estimates between 400k to 500,000 deer. Overall trends are variable at best.

As to: "*Mule deer are increasing through out the West right now*.", that's not exactly true either.

The most current information put out by WAFWA, specifically the MDWG mid year 2013 shows Colorado, New Mexico, North Dakota, Texas-Trans Pecos, and Wyoming general deer populations decreasing. You can throw Saskatchewan in there too. Arizona and Washington are noted as stable to slightly increasing, with the remainder of the states as stable. States such as Utah's slight uptick in population over the last couple of years are deemed as weather related and not counted as an overall herd growth trend.

It's too bad the report they put out is so limited with info; would love to dive into the meat of their findings.

I might come back with some info on the cougar thing, but am not doing too well, been a rough few months. Hope you had a fun hunting season LT...


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