# Wyoming 2011 winter kill map..



## goofy elk

Here's a map of were the winter kill was worst last year for deer....
The antelope in these areas were also hit EXSTREAMLY hard!
Thought maybe some of you guys that apply in Wyoming might be interested.
You can double click on the map and get a larger view.

[attachment=0:1j68tevm]larger wy winter kill map.JPG[/attachment:1j68tevm]


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## wyogoob

It is really bad in 132, 133, 134, & 168. I wouldn't waste my deer pref points in those units. What few deer are left are taking a bad hit on the highways. 


We had our first-of-the-year Wyoming Big Game meeting this past week. Pretty interesting:

> Will they curtail the numbers of deer tags in the pink for non-residents? I doubt it.

> Will they lower the number of deer tags in the pink for residents? No way. (I'm sorry I even proposed it.) 

> The Game & Fish will be "conservative" with 2012 antelope tags in southwest Wyoming. 

> The big game biologist said the moose are dying off from carotid parasites. 

> There's good numbers of elk and lots of opportunity for non-residents to get tags. 

> Little was said about wolves. The chairman of the Predator Control Board was there and he said there's 5 wolves in the Bear/Hams Fork/Green River area and 2 on the Wyoming side of the North Slope.


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## 10yearquest

thanks goofy and goob. Good info. How many deer from the mirror lake area were part of those statistics I wonder?


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## elkfromabove

goofy elk said:


> Here's a map of were the winter kill was worst last year for deer....
> The antelope in these areas were also hit EXSTREAMLY hard!
> Thought maybe some of you guys that apply in Wyoming might be interested.
> You can double click on the map and get a larger view.
> 
> [attachment=0:1mh8ouu5]larger wy winter kill map.JPG[/attachment:1mh8ouu5]


It's a good thing that the extreme winter kill stopped at the Wyoming state line as the map shows and didn't move south into Utah! We'd have a hard time convincing some folks that it was part of Utah's declining mule deer problem.


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## stillhunterman

:mrgreen: 8)


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## Bears Butt

Thanks for the map Goofy...where is the source?


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## Packout

This map was put out by the Wyoming Game and Fish. We had antelope tags in one of the hard hit areas and the animals were few and scattered compared to years past.


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## goofy elk

elkfromabove said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a map of were the winter kill was worst last year for deer....
> The antelope in these areas were also hit EXSTREAMLY hard!
> Thought maybe some of you guys that apply in Wyoming might be interested.
> You can double click on the map and get a larger view.
> 
> [attachment=0:1py6bv8c]larger wy winter kill map.JPG[/attachment:1py6bv8c]
> 
> 
> 
> It's a good thing that the extreme winter kill stopped at the Wyoming state line as the map shows and didn't move south into Utah! We'd have a hard time convincing some folks that it was part of Utah's declining mule deer problem.
Click to expand...

Well there EFA,,,,,According to our Utah DWR it DID stop a the state line!
Here are the Utah DWR numbers that were put out last April......
Right after the hard winter of 2011 for the Unitas..........

North slope,,objective 6,200
Post 2009 5,950
post 2010 6,200

S Slope,,objective 13,000
post 2009 10,300
post 2010 10,000

The post 2010 numbers are actually the 2011 herd status as I read them..
after all, it was theses number that were used to set 2011s permits.


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## Treehugnhuntr

DWR reported a 2011 reduction in buck per 100 does and fawns per 100 does on the N slope and on the West Dagget 3 corners units from the previous year on the 2011 classification reports.

The composite average reduction for both units is as follows:

B/D - 15.25%

F/D - 18.5%

Seems like a significant reduction and inline with the findings of the map that was posted. I don't know quite how to quantify exstrea.... err.... well, you know, bad. But I'd say in comparison to the other units listed in the classifications, these are some of the more hard hit areas in comparison to 2010.

I noticed that they had quite a few areas that were neither pink nor yellow. That's good.

I guess the hope would be that areas are not hit by relatively severe weather several years in a row. Is prayer in order? Shall we kill a goat?


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## goofy elk

I guess what I'm driving at here is the herd estimates for the North slope of the Unitas
show it at full capacity, or herd objective of 6,200 head despite last years winter......

Right or wrong?


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## elkfromabove

goofy elk said:


> elkfromabove said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="goofy elk":1hsjlmtx]Here's a map of were the winter kill was worst last year for deer....
> The antelope in these areas were also hit EXSTREAMLY hard!
> Thought maybe some of you guys that apply in Wyoming might be interested.
> You can double click on the map and get a larger view.
> 
> [attachment=0:1hsjlmtx]larger wy winter kill map.JPG[/attachment:1hsjlmtx]
> 
> 
> 
> It's a good thing that the extreme winter kill stopped at the Wyoming state line as the map shows and didn't move south into Utah! We'd have a hard time convincing some folks that it was part of Utah's declining mule deer problem.
Click to expand...

Well there EFA,,,,,According to our Utah DWR it DID stop a the state line!
Here are the Utah DWR numbers that were put out last April......
Right after the hard winter of 2011 for the Uintas..........[/quote:1hsjlmtx]

We don't see the numbers, but I didn't exclude the DWR in my statement. Sometimes they miss the mark as well (see the thread on the DWR Convention email). My point was that, too many times we think we know the answers based on the experiences we have in our little neck of the woods and we are not willing to even investigate other possibilities. And we tend to stick with those answers come heck or high water because we put so much emotion into them that additional information doesn't matter. Having said that, I'm pleased that the Wildlife Board seems to be more open to additional information and that's good. Hopefully some of the rest of us, including the DWR, will follow suite.


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## goofy elk

These are the estimated deer numbers used last at last April/may RACs to set permit numbers...

North Slope, 6,200 [email protected] full herd objective..

South Slope Yellowstone........10,000 deer.

Chalk Creek.......8,500 deer.

Cache................16,500 deer.

The point here is last years winter kill was NOT taken into consideration when setting 2011s permit numbers....


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## Treehugnhuntr

Are you sure?


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## goofy elk

I know fore sure these are the numbers that were used at the RAC/Board meetings
when setting antlerless permits this past spring.....

In-fact , the Ogden unit shows an increase in deer numbers...
from 6,900 head to 9,150 deer for 2011....

So ,,,I guess the bad winter did stop at the state line.... :shock: :O•-:


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## wyogoob

goofy elk said:


> I know fore sure these are the numbers that were used at the RAC/Board meetings
> when setting antlerless permits this past spring.....
> 
> In-fact , the Ogden unit shows an increase in deer numbers...
> from 6,900 head to 9,150 deer for 2011....
> 
> So ,,,I guess the bad winter did stop at the state line.... :shock: :O•-:


Are you guys in Utah using the metric system to count deer?


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## middlefork

Goob, everbody knows that Wyoming along with all the other surrounding states have a superior model of determining how many live and dead deer there are at any given time on any range. It must be the vast amount of money directed to the task of accurate counts that makes the difference.

Or maybe they do use metric


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## wyogoob

middlefork said:


> Goob, everbody knows that Wyoming along with all the other surrounding states have a superior model of determining how many live and dead deer there are at any given time on any range. It must be the vast amount of money directed to the task of accurate counts that makes the difference.
> 
> Or maybe they do use metric


Ah, ha, ha, ho, ho, he, he

Seriously, the last I knew each Wyoming Game and Fish game wardens fly their district at the end of the winter, like in April/early May, and counted big game on the wintering grounds. They also count from the ground. Many times the Department, or a university, will mount cameras at the highway game fence underpasses. Nugget Canyon (US 30), northeast of Randolph, is an example. The large Nugget Canyon crucial winter range winters deer from Idaho and Utah, as well as Wyoming. As a whole, Wyoming's game fence and game fence underpasses have been a huge success. Keeping thousands of wintering mule deer off the highways, the game fences are a model for mule deer managers throughout the west.

In addition, every year during the first part of June each district has one, or maybe two, deer mortality counts where volunteers walk pieces of crucial winter range assisting the Game and Fish counting and sexing big game carcasses. The group scours a pre-ordained section of the same winter range each and every June. The Game & Fish teaches the participants the difference between male and female pelvic bones. They've been doing the mortality counts for quite a number of years now; I guess about 18 years. It is a lot of fun.

Evanston has the Leroy mule deer mortality count, on a wind-blown piece of black sagebrush along, and south of, Interstate 80 east of Evanston. The deer that winter along Muddy Creek there come from Wyoming and Utah. The losses counted on the June 2011 count were "dramatic" and if I told you the mortality percentages you wouldn't believe me.

The Wyoming Game & Fish derives most of it's income from Big Game licenses. Around 66% of that license money comes from non-residents and little, if any, money comes from the General Fund.


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## swbuckmaster

Nevermind I reconsidered my post it's not worth it.


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## Mrad

Wyoming recognizes a problem and does nothing. Utah doesn't believe in problems and does nothing because that's what utahns do. Lalala life is good. Shame on both states!


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## mack1950

Last season the boys and i hunted along one of the harder hit units for deer and antelope and the difference in the last season was very dramitic the site maps concure what we had found out from some of the landowners in the area a 30 percent plus loss for that area on both species while we were able to harvest animals it was mostly by luck than skill espically the deer. looks like im going to be looking into some new areas this fall. At casper at the division office the personnel there hinted about cuts not only this fall but possible the seasons after that were being looked at very hard.


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## wyoming2utah

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Are you sure?


No, he's not...here is what the DWR said about last winter:

"When you go afield on Oct. 22, Aoude says the number of buck deer compared to the number of doe deer that will be waiting for you is good across most of Utah. He says this past winter was a good one for deer across most of the state.

"Even though the state received a lot of snow," Aoude says, "temperatures across most of Utah were mild enough that the snow melted quickly on the lower elevation areas where the deer spend the winter.

"Most of the fawns that were born in 2010 made it through the winter," he says. "These deer will be available to hunters as yearling bucks this fall."

*Aoude says there are some exceptions, though - portions of the Cache unit in northern Utah, and units along the south slope of the Uinta Mountains in northeastern Utah, were hit with cold temperatures at the start of winter. The cold temperatures remained through most of the season.*

"The snow in these areas crusted over and stayed that way through most of the winter," Aoude says. "Quite a few fawns died."

Another area of concern is southern Utah, where a severe drought several years ago has kept the overall number of deer down. "The number of fawns born in the southern part of the state has been fairly low over the past few years," Aoude says. "Hopefully, the wet winter and spring this year will help the vegetation. If the vegetation improves, so will the overall number of deer."


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## wyoming2utah

goofy elk said:


> These are the estimated deer numbers used last at last April/may RACs to set permit numbers...
> 
> North Slope, 6,200 [email protected] full herd objective..
> 
> South Slope Yellowstone........10,000 deer.
> 
> Chalk Creek.......8,500 deer.
> 
> Cache................16,500 deer.
> 
> The point here is last years winter kill was NOT taken into consideration when setting 2011s permit numbers....


Here is what the DWR said about these areas:

"Box Elder, Ogden, Cache - Fawn production was good last year, but winter losses were heavy during the winter of 2010-2011 on the eastern portion of the Cache unit. Because of the heavy losses, yearling bucks will be scarce on the eastern part of the Cache unit this fall. Adult survival was good on all three units, however, so older age class bucks will be available to hunters. With good summer moisture, expect to find deer dispersed across the country. Animals will be found at the edge of timber and open meadows in the mornings and evenings.

Morgan/South Rich, East Canyon - Fewer yearling bucks should be available due to a loss of fawns from late winter and spring storms. However, both units do have good buck-to-doe ratios, and good numbers of mature bucks are available. Vegetation is dense and water is plentiful this year, and deer should be widely distributed. Both units are primarily comprised of private property, so written permission must be obtained before hunting most of the areas in these units.

Chalk Creek, Kamas, Summit portion of the North Slope - The Chalk Creek, Kamas and the western portion of the North Slope deer herd units experienced a very long winter with snow pack totals not seen in many years. As a result, winter mortality of both fawns and adults was somewhat higher than normal. Range conditions are excellent throughout these areas due to the heavy snow pack and late summer rains. To find success, it's very important that hunters do some pre-season scouting.

Chalk Creek - The estimated wintering population on the Chalk Creek unit is 8,500 animals with a population objective of 10,500. Data collected last fall indicates the herd went into the winter doing very good. Nearly 35 bucks per 100 does and 70 fawns per 100 does were counted. Deer on this unit are scattered as water is not a limiting factor and forage is abundant. The unit is mostly private property. Hunters are reminded that they must have written permission before accessing posted property.

Kamas - The estimated wintering population on the Kamas unit is 5,950 animals with a population objective of 8,000. Data collected last fall suggests the herd is stable, as 76 fawns per 100 does and 21 bucks per 100 does were counted. Winter mortality was only slightly higher than expected. Hunters should expect deer numbers to be about the same as last year.

Range conditions are excellent on this unit, and deer are scattered throughout the higher elevations. Deer numbers are higher in the backs of remote drainages, which are farther from roads and ATV trails.

North Slope - The North Slope has an estimated winter population of 6,200 animals, which is very near the population objective for this unit. Deer on this unit went into the winter doing very well, and winter mortality seems to be less here than in other areas. Hunters will find deer at higher elevations. In the higher elevations, deer will be in remote areas away from roads and trails."

And...."The hunt in the Northeastern Region will be a bit more challenging this year. A wet year has provided lots of vegetation and plenty of water in pools, ponds, springs and rivers. As a result, the deer are spread out - the weather has not forced them to cluster around water.

The deer are in good physical condition, another positive result of the increased vegetation. But - because of winterkill - the number of deer is down along the South Slope of the Uinta Mountains, from Strawberry Reservoir to the Colorado border.

"The hunt on the North Slope of the Uinta Mountains will be comparable to last year," says Charlie Greenwood, DWR regional wildlife manager. "On the south slope, expect fewer bucks, especially spikes, because of the winterkill. Also, check the guidebook carefully as some units, such as the South Slope-Vernal unit, have shorter seasons because their buck-to-doe ratios are below the management objective of 15 bucks per 100 does."


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## wyoming2utah

One other note...tag numbers are based more on buck/doe ratios than winter population numbers. IF buck/doe ratios are at or near levels that threaten the likelihood of does not being impregnated, tag numbers should be cut. Otherwise, the need for tag reductions aren't biological...but social.


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## goofy elk

Tree, W2U...
Those are the DWR press releases just prior to the 2011 deer season....

Same old chit,,,,,popular DWR quotes.
"Hunters will find deer at higher elevations. In the higher elevations, deer will be in remote areas away from roads and trails."

"To find success, it's very important that hunters do some pre-season scouting."

"Both units are primarily comprised of private property, so written permission must be obtained before hunting most of the areas in these units."

"South Slope-Vernal unit, have shorter seasons because their buck-to-doe ratios are below the management objective of 15 bucks per 100 does."

"the weather has not forced them to cluster around water."

"The snow in these areas crusted over and stayed that way through most of the winter," Aoude says. "Quite a few fawns died."

Quote after quote making excuses for lack of success even before the 2011
deer hunt started!........TRENDS? 2 years in a row now of mad deer hunters..
Lower success rates, And the DWR phone ringing off the hook with complaints..

My point is , Why were herd estimates last spring not reflective of winter loses?


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## wyoming2utah

goofy elk said:


> My point is , Why were herd estimates last spring not reflective of winter loses?


You are talking about WINTER population estimates...those estimates are based on last fall's counts and don't reflect all the winter losses. Also, spring counts last year did NOT reflect all the winter loss because of our long winter and late spring last year. We had winter loss happen well after counts were done....those losses won't be reflected until this fall. Also, look at the fawn counts of those units...they are all really good. So, even with some fawn loss, the fawn/doe ratios in the fall were high enough that they could handle some fawn loss and still see growth...

Again, though, you are worried about them not cutting tags last year but seemed to have forgotten that buck/doe ratios drive tag numbers as much as anything else....


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## wyoming2utah

Read this article:
http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-a ... b7e78.html

"Officials are flying over the deer and calculating population estimates now. The final population numbers, which will include hunter surveys, will be released in the spring." Interesting...so, Wyoming flies the units during the winter makes a population estimate based on those numbers and releases them in the spring. Do you think those counts reflect all the winter losses?


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## wyogoob

wyoming2utah said:


> Read this article:
> http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-a ... b7e78.html
> 
> "Officials are flying over the deer and calculating population estimates now. The final population numbers, which will include hunter surveys, will be released in the spring." Interesting...so, Wyoming flies the units during the winter makes a population estimate based on those numbers and releases them in the spring. Do you think those counts reflect all the winter losses?


Not exactly. There will be more surveys, aerial and on the ground, before the population numbers are. Herd number info is dynamic, change as new information is gathered.

The WY non-resident deer tags are issued around February/March. The rest of the tags, the big majority of the deer tags - resident tags, are issued in mid-June after the results from all the surveys and mortality counts are in. Changes, reductions maybe, to the number of deer tags based on all the surveys, not just the winter survey, can be made before our June drawing.

Note that many of the deer in the Wyoming Range migrate to winter range north of Evanston as do deer from Northeastern Utah. A deer counted on the Wyoming Range, say up on Porcupine Ridge, from the air in December could be counted north of Evanston in May on crucial winter range.


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## wyoming2utah

Wyogoob, you missed my point. The point was that the winter counts done in Wyoming won't give an accurate reflection of what is or is not in the herd in the spring. Those winter counts are just pieces of a bigger puzzle. The same can be said of Utah's counts....Winter population estimates are going to be different than numbers that come in after spring counts are done. Also, if spring counts are done and winter conditions persist, more mortality will still occur. Those "spring" counts done in Southeastern Wyoming last year wouldn't have reflected all of the winter mortality because spring last year didn't ever really come until the end of May.


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## Iron Bear

Whats this "hunter survey" you speak of?


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## DallanC

Iron Bear said:


> Whats this "hunter survey" you speak of?


I've been called every fall by the State DWR deer harvest survey for over 20 years now. My wife has been called every fall since we've been married as well.

-DallanC


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## wyoming2utah

The "hunter surveys" mentioned are the post-hunt surveys that are counting harvest numbers. In Utah hunter harvest information is estimated based on deer hunter checkpoints and telephone surveys..."For the telephone surveys, random, statistically valid samples of approximately 25% of total license holders were used to estimate harvest statistics. Based on results from the surveys and online reports, harvest data were projected by the total number of permits to obtain estimates of the number of animals harvested, number of hunters afield, and number of days hunted. To minimize error, harvest data for individual units, regions, and statewide totals were projected separately." I would be willing to bet that Wyoming's harvest information is tallied by a similar system.


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## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> The "hunter surveys" mentioned are the post-hunt surveys that are counting harvest numbers. In Utah hunter harvest information is estimated based on deer hunter checkpoints and telephone surveys..."For the telephone surveys, random, statistically valid samples of approximately 25% of total license holders were used to estimate harvest statistics. Based on results from the surveys and online reports, harvest data were projected by the total number of permits to obtain estimates of the number of animals harvested, number of hunters afield, and number of days hunted. To minimize error, harvest data for individual units, regions, and statewide totals were projected separately." I would be willing to bet that Wyoming's harvest information is tallied by a similar system.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's a bet I wouldn't make. I get a hunter survey every year, sometimes two (I have two mailing addresses) There's never a question about numbers seen.
Click to expand...


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## wyoming2utah

wyogoob said:


> No, that's a bet I wouldn't make. I get a hunter survey every year, sometimes two (I have two mailing addresses) There's never a question about numbers seen.


In Wyoming, not all hunters are surveyed, but depending on the species and hunt area, at least 60 percent of hunters will receive survey cards [of which a much lower percentage is actually received]. Survey recipients are randomly selected. Even though hunters may be members of a hunting party, there is no guarantee all members of the party will receive a survey. If not enough hunters respond to the initial mailing, follow up phone calls are made and surveys are sent until enough are received to obtaining statistically valid estimates of hunter effort and harvest.

It is very similar to Utah.


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## wyogoob

wyoming2utah said:


> Wyogoob, you missed my point. Actually, I'm doing a poor job of getting my point across.
> 
> The point was that the winter counts done in Wyoming won't give an accurate reflection of what is or is not in the herd in the spring. Those winter counts are just pieces of a bigger puzzle. Yes, I agree, and as I stated we have counts later, up until it's time to set the numbers of Resident tags.
> 
> The same can be said of Utah's counts....Winter population estimates are going to be different than numbers that come in after spring counts are done. Also, if spring counts are done and winter conditions persist, more mortality will still occur. Those "spring" counts done in Southeastern SouthwesternWyoming last year wouldn't have reflected all of the winter mortality because spring last year didn't ever really come until the end of May. That's right and that's why we do counts in the spring.
> 
> I don't want to use the UWN to air my opinions about Wyoming's deer management parctices. They do a great job of counting ungulates.


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## wyogoob

wyoming2utah said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's a bet I wouldn't make. I get a hunter survey every year, sometimes two (I have two mailing addresses) There's never a question about numbers seen.
Click to expand...

In Wyoming, not all hunters are surveyed, but depending on the species and hunt area, at least 60 percent of hunters will receive survey cards. Survey recipients are randomly selected. Even though hunters may be members of a hunting party, there is no guarantee all members of the party will receive a survey. If not enough hunters respond to the initial mailing, follow up phone calls are made and surveys are sent until enough are received to obtaining statistically valid estimates of hunter effort and harvest.

It is very similar to Utah.[/quote]

No, the surveys do not ask about numbers.


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## Iron Bear

:lol: A simple like Utah's hunter survey would suffice. :mrgreen:


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## Iron Bear

But thanks for the info.  8)


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## wyoming2utah

wyogoob said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wyogoob, you missed my point. Actually, I'm doing a poor job of getting my point across.
> 
> The point was that the winter counts done in Wyoming won't give an accurate reflection of what is or is not in the herd in the spring. Those winter counts are just pieces of a bigger puzzle. Yes, I agree, and as I stated we have counts later, up until it's time to set the numbers of Resident tags.  It doesn't matter when counts are done, there will always be factors that make those counts not totally accurate at the time permits are determined...that's my point. The same can be said in Wyoming.
> 
> The same can be said of Utah's counts....Winter population estimates are going to be different than numbers that come in after spring counts are done. Also, if spring counts are done and winter conditions persist, more mortality will still occur. Those "spring" counts done in Southwestern (my mistake)eastern SouthwesternWyoming last year wouldn't have reflected all of the winter mortality because spring last year didn't ever really come until the end of May. That's right and that's why we do counts in the spring.Again, though, those spring counts are only good at that exact time and they will not reflect what happens afterwards. Wyoming spring counts are NOT going to occur in May and June.
> 
> I don't want to use the UWN to air my opinions about Wyoming's deer management parctices. They do a great job of counting ungulates. I am not challenging Wyoming counts...I think they are as accurate as possible considering all the limitations...I feel the same about Utah's.
Click to expand...


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## wyoming2utah

wyogoob said:


> No, the surveys do not ask about numbers.


I am not sure what "numbers" you are referring to, but harvest surveys are only asking really about harvest numbers...


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## wyogoob

wyoming2utah said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, the surveys do not ask about numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure what "numbers" you are referring to, but harvest surveys are only asking really about harvest numbers...
Click to expand...

Oh, OK. I thought you were talking about number of deer seen while hunting, my bad. Yeah, you are right. They add up the harvested number and multiply it by 4.1987765086 (I just made that up) and come up with a harvest total.

The surveys are mailed out random like you said. But I think some of us are on a "list" (probably the guys that historically always filled them out), whereas we get a survey every year. For quite a number of years now I have got a survey for every big game and trophy game tag I held. In the past our family may have had 5 to 8 deer tags, so someone would get a survey.

Getting back to the original post: Goofy's map is of importance to Utah deer hunters. Many of "your" deer winter in those pink areas. Those losses will be reflected in the deer herd of northeast Utah.

And dangit WY2UT, those Utah deer that feed over here are screwing up our herd count and buck/doe ratios (too many Utah does). Can you do something about that?


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## wyoming2utah

wyogoob said:


> Getting back to the original post: Goofy's map is of importance to Utah deer hunters. Many of "your" deer winter in those pink areas. Those losses will be reflected in the deer herd of northeast Utah.
> 
> And dangit WY2UT, those Utah deer that feed over here are screwing up our herd count and buck/doe ratios (too many Utah does). Can you do something about that?


1) agreed!

2) I wish I could do something about the deer migrating out of state and getting killed....think Paunsagaunt to Arizona! I just hope you guys in Southwest Wyoming take care of the habitat so that our Utah does can come back and give birth to healthy fawns!


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## Bottomwatcher

2) I wish I could do something about the deer migrating out of state and getting killed....think Paunsagaunt to Arizona! I just hope you guys in Southwest Wyoming take care of the habitat so that our Utah does can come back and give birth to healthy fawns![/quote]
Everyone knows that we are killing wyomings deer on the late crawford hunt. A lot of people fron wyoming dont care too much for this. Dolores Triangle is the same for colorado deer that get shot in Utah. I hunted this last fall and was in one of the Red units yesterday looking at the deer and the deer numbers reflect what is on the map. LOW deer numbers. By the way what few bucks are around are all still packing.


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## goofy elk

Here's my point one more time,,,We all can agree a bunch of Utah deer died in Wyoming
last winter......Right?

Yet herd estimates released last April for Utah shows Utah's herd INCRESSED on these 
bordering units, on the Utah side.........

Unit 2 Cache, increased from 15,050 to 16,500 deer.

Unit 4 Chalk creek, increased from 8,100 to 8,500 deer.

Unit 8 North slope, increased from 5,950 to 6,200 deer..

Ill tell ya another thing, I spent all most 2 week last September in the Unitas, we hiked
our butts off, We were on both the South slope Yellow stone and Kamas units................
Between the two , the herd estimate there is 12,150 deer.

If there is actually half that number of deer there I would be surprised......

Years ago I spent many fall days riding trails in these same areas, it was not
uncommon to see a 100 deer a day on these units.........

Last September , We hiked 26 miles, Glassed till our eye fell out, High and low....
SAW 2 SMALL bucks and maybe 75 does!!!,,,,,,,,,It doesn't take a rocket scientist
to know when there deer are in poor shape.


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## wyoming2utah

goofy elk said:


> Here's my point one more time,,,We all can agree a bunch of Utah deer died in Wyoming
> last winter......Right?
> 
> Yet herd estimates released last April for Utah shows Utah's herd INCRESSED on these
> bordering units, on the Utah side.........


I don't even know why I reply...Goofy, did you read any of what I posted the last few pages? Good grief...

Goofy, you continue to miss the big picture...spring counts are done in april and may in Utah. So, those WINTER estimates that you are talking about did not and could not reflect any winter losses. So, those WINTER estimates were done based on last fall's post season counts. The RAC meetings that discussed buck deer tags for both LE and General season hunts were held in early April....and BEFORE all the spring counts had been finalized. Those counts that you are complaining about could NOT take into account any deer losses that happened last spring...

....also, last spring's fawn/doe counts were really good for those units. Based on those counts, those units should have grown!


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## wyoming2utah

goofy elk said:


> Yet herd estimates *released last April* for Utah


That's the key...Goof....LAST APRIL! You are talking about WINTER population estimates! When are spring counts done?


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## wyogoob

I have been involved in, if not managed, the Evanston WY/UT Christmas Bird Count for over 30 years. Every year, the week before Christmas, we walk, ride, snowmobile, drive a 15-mile diameter circle centered on where Highway 89 crosses the Utah/Wyoming state line. A good part of the circle is on the Deseret Land & Livestock and much of the count circle is crucial winter habitat for mule deer.

The participants enjoy getting out and observing the wintering elk and deer as much, if not more, than chasing the birds.

This is the worst year for mule deer numbers in our circle in 30 years.



The mule deer bucks (all 3 of them) are dropping their horns - Evanston and on the Kemerrerrererer Highway (US 189).


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## goofy elk

wyoming2utah said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet herd estimates *released last April* for Utah
> 
> 
> 
> That's the key...Goof....LAST APRIL! You are talking about WINTER population estimates! When are spring counts done?
Click to expand...

Well W2U,,Maybe the DWR SHOULD QUITE CALLING IT A 2011 HERD STATUS then!

2011 DEER HERD STATUS Updated 4/5/2011
Plan Population Population Population Population 2008 2009 2010 2011
Population Estimate Estimate Estimate Estimate 
Objective post-2007 post-2008 post-2009 post-2010 
Box Elder 20,000 13,400 14,300 16,100 17,100 
Cache 25,000 15,800 13,700 15,050 16,500 
Ogden 11,000 7,500 5,500 6,900 9,150 
Morgan, So. Rich 12,000 9,500 6,100 8,000 9,900 
East Canyon 7,000 6,800 6,200 8,500 9,100 
Chalk Creek 10,500 8,900 7,500 8,100 8,500 
Kamas 8,000 6,800 6,300 6,400 5,950
North Slope 6,200 5,100 4,800 5,950 6,200 
S. Slope, Yellowstone 13,000 11,500 9,300 10,300 10,000 
S. Slope, Vernal/Diamond 13,000 10,300 11,300 13,200 12,000 
Book Cliffs 15,000 7,350 8,300 8,050 7,000 
Nine Mile 8,500 4,150 3,800 4,900 4,600 
San Rafael 1,000 No data No Data No Data No Data 
La Sal 18,100 11,100 7,400 7,800 6,600 
San Juan 20,500 15,400 12,800 16,400 12,900 
Henry Mountains 2,000 1,080 1,500 1,400 1,200 
Central Mtns., Manti 38,000 24,400 19,800 20,900 19,900 
Central Mtns., Nebo 22,600 10,900 11,000 11,500 11,800 
Wasatch Mtns, D Fork, Heber, Timp 20,600 19,100 15,000 16,500 18,000 
Wasatch Mtns, Currant Cr. 15,000 10,700 8,100 9,500 10,000 
Wasatch Mtns,Avintaquin 3,200 1,650 1,700 1,700 1,700 
Wasatch Mtns, Salt Lake 2,000 1,650 1,400 1,650 1,800 
Oquirrh/Stansbury 10,600 8,650 9,000 8,000 8,700 
West Desert 11,200 7,700 8,000 8,100 8,800 
Southwest Desert 3,200 1,450 1,600 1,600 1,400 
Fillmore 12,000 9,300 10,000 9,500 9,000
Beaver 11,000 10,200 8,000 11,000 10,900 
Monroe 7,500 7,500 6,700 7,100 4,800 
Mt. Dutton 2,700 2,300 2,500 2,400 1,800 
Plateau 25,000 15,800 12,000 15,500 12,500 
Kaiparowits 1,000 400 1,000 400 400 
Paunsaugunt 5,200 6,600 6,000 5,800 4,900 
Panguitch Lake 8,500 8,700 10,000 10,500 8,100 
Zion 9,000 7,350 9,500 9,600 9,900 
Pine Valley 12,800 13,400 13,400 13,400 12,600 
STATEWIDE TOTALS 411,900 302,430 273,500 301,700 293,700

To help understand these numbers, The first number following the unit is the objective.

The following 4 figures after that are the herd estimates for the last 4 consecutive 
years on that particular unit....


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## wyoming2utah

goofy elk said:


> 2011 DEER HERD STATUS Updated 4/5/2011


First off Goof, where are you pulling these numbers? Off what document are they coming? Second of all, good grief...look at the date it was completed! April 5th! These are WINTER population estimates....look at page 46 of the 2010 Big Game Annual Report. This graphic shows the WINTER population objectives for each unit and the actual estimates.



goofy elk said:


> Well W2U,,Maybe the DWR SHOULD QUITE CALLING IT A 2011 HERD STATUS then!


Did you want to call them the 2010 numbers? I don't get it...they are population estimates based on fall counts. IT is YOU that is trying to read more into them than what is or is not there. IF you would simply look at the dates that they are issued, think about when counts are being done, you would probably see what might or might not be reflected in those numbers. Besides, ON the documents I am reading, they don't. They call them the winter populations. But, that doesn't really matter...because regardless of when the estimates are given--as I said before--they will not reflect exactly what is or is not happening.


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## goofy elk

W2U,,,,
These are the numbers that were USED AT THE RAC and BOARD meeting in April/May
to set antler less permits...............THATS WERE I"M PULLING THESE NUMBERS!

So W2U , now your tell us the DWR sets antler less permits from a YEAR old estimate...

And puts out a deer herd summery that DOESN'T included winter kill for that year???????

I knew these herd estimates were off about 50%,,That would start to explain it.. :shock:


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## wyoming2utah

goofy elk said:


> These are the numbers that were USED AT THE RAC and BOARD meeting in April/May
> to set antler less permits...............THATS WERE I"M PULLING THESE NUMBERS!


Holy cow, Goofy, are you really this dense? These estimates are for the WINTER populations and they do NOT reflect winter kill....is that so hard? These numbers are from April 5th...I looked them up to and I looked at the WB meetings and the RAC meetings. They cannot reflect winter mortality because winter isn't totally over yet...and the spring counts are not totally done yet. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

Did you want them to wait until July before they come up with their numbers? That way tag and permits could be based on the previous season's winterkill?



goofy elk said:


> So W2U , now your tell us the DWR sets antler less permits from a YEAR old estimate...


NO, they are a 2011 WINTER estimate...and CANNOT reflect 2011 spring winter kills because these estimates were issued in the early spring of 2011 and bios don't have all their spring numbers yet.

Did you want the DWR to do a deer population estimate that just guesses what the mortality is going to be?


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## wyoming2utah

goofy elk said:


> I knew these herd estimates were off about 50%,,That would start to explain it..


The shocking thing here is that you don't understand that a winter population estimate doesn't reflect spring winterkill.... :lol:


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## proutdoors

Wasted energy, wy2ut....wasted energy!


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## goofy elk

wyoming2utah said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I knew these herd estimates were off about 50%,,That would start to explain it..
> 
> 
> 
> The shocking thing here is that you don't understand that a winter population estimate doesn't reflect spring winterkill.... :lol:
Click to expand...

NO!

THE SHOCKING thing here is it appears the Antler less hunt numbers are being
set WITHOUT taking into consideration the winter kill ........ :shock:

Just another reason to distrust Utah's estimate herd numbers :!:


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## JuddCT

goofy elk said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="goofy elk":n3iw2h7j]
> I knew these herd estimates were off about 50%,,That would start to explain it..
> 
> 
> 
> The shocking thing here is that you don't understand that a winter population estimate doesn't reflect spring winterkill.... :lol:
Click to expand...

NO!

THE SHOCKING thing here is it appears the Antler less hunt numbers are being
set WITHOUT taking into consideration the winter kill ........ :shock:

Just another reason to distrust Utah's estimate herd numbers :!:[/quote:n3iw2h7j]

You do know what "ESTIMATE" means, right? :roll:


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