# desert land and livestock views



## eyecrazy (May 4, 2008)

destert feels that it is unethical to hunt thier borders and they will not reward unethical huntining so they will not let hunters retreave there game if an animal wounded on public land and it goes into desert you have to call the dnr and have them retreave it. they also where chaceing the elk that got close to the border back into desert. I thought that was aginst the law. they would drive trucks and four wheelers up and down the roads and catcut take horses and chace the elk back if they heard a bugle they would chace it down and push it back into deseret. so be prepared if you hunt this unit and have the dnr # or you will not retreave your game.


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## broncbuster (Jul 22, 2009)

Have you ever tried to herd a elk on a horse? Its not really possible unless you have them behind a high fence.
They do patrol the borders to watch for trespassing. Most private lands will not let you trespass to retive a animal.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

eyecrazy said:


> destert feels that it is unethical to hunt thier borders and they will not reward unethical huntining so they will not let hunters retreave there game if an animal wounded on public land and it goes into desert you have to call the dnr and have them retreave it. they also where chaceing the elk that got close to the border back into desert. I thought that was aginst the law. they would drive trucks and four wheelers up and down the roads and catcut take horses and chace the elk back if they heard a bugle they would chace it down and push it back into deseret. so be prepared if you hunt this unit and have the dnr # or you will not retreave your game.


 :?: :?: :?: :?:


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I thought it was the law that you have to try and retive your down game? They have to let you on there do get it. You might not be able to take your gun on there with you and they can make you clean it on the other side of the fence.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

This is an annual event around here - claims of DLL boogey-men ruining someone's elk hunt because they can't shoot that trophy bull from the road up Monte Cristo. So, how long before the reports of phantom helicopters chasing elk back to Deseret? Any guesses? 

Anyone who has actually spent any time on DLL knows the reason they have so many freaking elk/deer/moose. It is all about the habitat. It is aggressively managed for livestock AND wildlife. Cows and sheep are pushed from pasture to pasture in an aggressive, coordinated, and deliberate manner. Coupled with range treatments - both fire and mechanical, and DLL has the best balance of livestock and wildlife habitats within 500 miles. You've got to go to eastern Montana's rangelands to find lands in better condition and balanced that you'll find at DLL.

As for the tresspass thing - no land owner has to let you on their land for any reason. It requires permission, no matter the reason, and the land owner can set the terms, or flat out reject your request. It is totally up to the land owner.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

dkhntrdstn said:


> I thought it was the law that you have to try and retive your down game? They have to let you on there do get it. You might not be able to take your gun on there with you and they can make you clean it on the other side of the fence.


I don't think they have to let you. They should let you but I believe it is up to them.


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## eyecrazy (May 4, 2008)

I killed a 330 bull and you cousin killed a 300 I have the paper they put on my truck to prove what destert is doing


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Thing with DLL - is they have the best habitat in Utah as I mentioned. And so they have the most elk, and control the hunting there. And as such, lots of people like to cruise the property line to try to either sneak an elk off the ranch, or to pick one off if it crosses the fenceline. Its kind of like some hunters in Wyoming and Montana that cruise YNP's boundaries. So of course they are going to be patrolling their property boundary. But stories of them chasing elk back on to the ranch? There really is no need to do that, let alone a feasible way of doing it.


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## eyecrazy (May 4, 2008)

they keep all the sheep on public land and save there land. the public land is trampled to death by the sheep that is why the elk go into deseret


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I've been on DLL many times at different times of year and there were sheep all over. Closely watched and managed, and regularly moved sheep. They use the sheep and cattle to manage the lands for maximum livestock AND wildlife production. I didn't know DLL even had any public grazing alotments. I'm not sure that is the case.


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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

I was thinking the same thing. I doubt it is their sheep you see on public land.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

When my best friends dad killed a legal bull that died on DLL he had to contact Rick, the sheriff, DWR and a government trapper to determine if the bull was killed legally or not. It took them 6 hours to make a decision and he got to keep the 340" bull that died less than 300 yards inside their border.
I have witnessed helicopters and people on horseback doing unusual things on their border and on public land. I cannot prove they were doing anything illegal nor did i see anything illegal. However, there are a lot of stories that are almost identical to mine that witnessed illegal chasing of game back onto their property and the dropping of flour bags from very high. I also know that they get pissed when someone kills a prized bull legally on public land just outside their border. If you have proof that will stand up in court that they are doing illegal things then turn them asap.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I think these reports are kind of like a holiday fruitcake. There was one made back in 1978 and it keeps getting passed around year after year, with no one quite knowing who actually made it.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> I think these reports are kind of like a holiday fruitcake. There was one made back in 1978 and it keeps getting passed around year after year, with no one quite knowing who actually made it.


Question, can a CWMU tag holder come off the ranch and kill an animal on public land that is not in the CWMU?


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## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

No CWMA are for the private land only!


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

That's what i thought.


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

Well said Garyfish!
I Have hunted DLL and I must say that it is by far one of the best hunts and most enjoyable ones. These guys know their boundaries and are very careful to make sure they don't cross them. They make sure that their hunters know where the boundaries are. They also make sure the public hunters are not crossing from the other side. Their elk and moose hunters both public draw tags and private are paired up with a guide. The only tag holders that are on their own are lope and deer hunters. "flour bag bombs and people running and herding elk back onto the property" Give me a break. They have no reason to do this so why would they.
If you question what is going on draw a tag and go see for yourself. By far they have the best multiple use managed property around.


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

I totally agree with Garyfish and cklspencer,

I have fished up there many times going back to about 1994. Between my dad, brothers and I, we have drawn and harvested 5 cow elk. In 2008, my dad fullfilled his lifetime dream of finally drawing (after having put in for 20+ years) and was very fortunate to punch that tag on his dream bull. There is no way his dream could have ever been fullfilled without the excellent professional help of two incredible guides from DLL. Deseret is how every CWMU in the State should be ran. They manage it properly and fairly with tag numbers and habitat and treat the people who they consider their clients/customers (whether high dollar tag holders or State draw tag holders) with the utmost respect and they work hard for them to have an excellent not only hunt, but overall experience. I know I have memories that will last my lifetime and beyond from Deseret. This was the last ever hunt that my dad was able to go on before he passed away a year ago. He had severely failing health and was lucky he was even able to go. He had a severe stroke a few months after his hunt which left him in a care center without the use of his left side of his body and other serious problems. Add that to his heart and kidney failure / dialysis, diabetes, etc... He was lucky to have this come true and I was very fortunate to be able to go with him on his final and dream hunt. This is for sure one of the biggest highlights I ever had with my dad and it was all possible because of Deseret Land and Livestock and two amazing men that I will forever consider dear friends.


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

GaryFish said:


> I think these reports are kind of like a holiday fruitcake. There was one made back in 1978 and it keeps getting passed around year after year, with no one quite knowing who actually made it.


 -_O-

I got the holiday fruitbrick last year. We took it out and shot it... Problem solved!


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

tshuntin said:


> I totally agree with Garyfish and cklspencer,
> 
> I have fished up there many times going back to about 1994. Between my dad, brothers and I, we have drawn and harvested 5 cow elk. In 2008, my dad fullfilled his lifetime dream of finally drawing (after having put in for 20+ years) and was very fortunate to punch that tag on his dream bull. There is no way his dream could have ever been fullfilled without the excellent professional help of two incredible guides from DLL. Deseret is how every CWMU in the State should be ran. They manage it properly and fairly with tag numbers and habitat and treat the people who they consider their clients/customers (whether high dollar tag holders or State draw tag holders) with the utmost respect and they work hard for them to have an excellent not only hunt, but overall experience. I know I have memories that will last my lifetime and beyond from Deseret. This was the last ever hunt that my dad was able to go on before he passed away a year ago. He had severely failing health and was lucky he was even able to go. He had a severe stroke a few months after his hunt which left him in a care center without the use of his left side of his body and other serious problems. Add that to his heart and kidney failure / dialysis, diabetes, etc... He was lucky to have this come true and I was very fortunate to be able to go with him on his final and dream hunt. This is for sure one of the biggest highlights I ever had with my dad and it was all possible because of Deseret Land and Livestock and two amazing men that I will forever consider dear friends.


Awesome story and sorry to hear about your dad. Glad you got to experience that.


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## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

+1


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

mikevanwilder said:


> tshuntin said:
> 
> 
> > I totally agree with Garyfish and cklspencer,
> ...


I agree, great story. I know when that dreaded time comes, memories of past hunts together will be (and already are) my most cherished.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

tshuntin said:


> I totally agree with Garyfish and cklspencer,
> 
> I have fished up there many times going back to about 1994. Between my dad, brothers and I, we have drawn and harvested 5 cow elk. In 2008, my dad fullfilled his lifetime dream of finally drawing (after having put in for 20+ years) and was very fortunate to punch that tag on his dream bull. There is no way his dream could have ever been fullfilled without the excellent professional help of two incredible guides from DLL. Deseret is how every CWMU in the State should be ran. They manage it properly and fairly with tag numbers and habitat and treat the people who they consider their clients/customers (whether high dollar tag holders or State draw tag holders) with the utmost respect and they work hard for them to have an excellent not only hunt, but overall experience. I know I have memories that will last my lifetime and beyond from Deseret. This was the last ever hunt that my dad was able to go on before he passed away a year ago. He had severely failing health and was lucky he was even able to go. He had a severe stroke a few months after his hunt which left him in a care center without the use of his left side of his body and other serious problems. Add that to his heart and kidney failure / dialysis, diabetes, etc... He was lucky to have this come true and I was very fortunate to be able to go with him on his final and dream hunt. This is for sure one of the biggest highlights I ever had with my dad and it was all possible because of Deseret Land and Livestock and two amazing men that I will forever consider dear friends.


Great story there man. Sorry for the lost of your dad.by the way great bull for him.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> I think these reports are kind of like a holiday fruitcake. There was one made back in 1978 and it keeps getting passed around year after year, with no one quite knowing who actually made it.


I wouldn't expect you to think anything else Gary,but I believe your view is skewed because of your affiliation with the church. Rick Danvir is not a very pleasant person at least the interactions I have had with him have been less than pleasant. I have seen with my own eyes the dropping of flour bags from choppers. My uncle and I were hunting grouse on lightning ridge when we witnessed it. I also believe the DNR was involved because when we called and reported it we were told they were doing counts. Nothing would surprise me with the good ole boy network in this state especially when the church is involved.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

I might sound stupid for this but what does dropping of flour bags do?


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

It creates a small "explosion" that spooks the elk whichever way you want them to go.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> It creates a small "explosion" that spooks the elk whichever way you want them to go.


oh I see. I thought they were trying to feed them flour. I could just picture elk with white faces running around the mountain. :mrgreen:


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

mikevanwilder said:


> lunkerhunter2 said:
> 
> 
> > It creates a small "explosion" that spooks the elk whichever way you want them to go.
> ...


lmao that would be funny :lol:


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

> I wouldn't expect you to think anything else Gary,but I believe your view is skewed because of your affiliation with the church. Rick Danvir is not a very pleasant person at least the interactions I have had with him have been less than pleasant. I have seen with my own eyes the dropping of flour bags from choppers. My uncle and I were hunting grouse on lightning ridge when we witnessed it. I also believe the DNR was involved because when we called and reported it we were told they were doing counts. Nothing would surprise me with the good ole boy network in this state especially when the church is involved.


I very highly doubt that it was DLL that was dropping flour bags if that is what it was. I would think that the people out there at DLL have far better things to do then chase elk with a chopper. 
If running herds and scattering elk with a chopper cancers you then maybe you should tell the DWR since they do it every now and again. I've talked with Rick and I find him to be a more then a pleasant guy to talk with. Everyone I have talked to out there has been pleasant to talk to. I would be willing to bet that most people who have hunted on DLL would tell you just how it really is and not some assumption from the other side of the fence. I think most people who choose to complain and make up stuff about DLL are more upset that they can't hunt there and feel they can't kill something because someone else owns the land and manages it to its best potential.
DLL get what they want not because they are owned by the church but because of the stewardship and the respect they show with their management of the property.


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## eyecrazy (May 4, 2008)

hunting in desteret is great but if you want to see their true colors then hunt outside their borders and then we will see what you think and if you are good enough or lucky enough to kill some elk then you will see how it is. I have killed 10 or 11 elk all outside the borders and every year they try to stop me the day after I kill a bull you can count on the sheep being in that canyon for two to four days. then if they move them and you kill another bull they will push them back. all I have to say is go hunt it and you will see what they do.


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## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

I saw a group of crack heads that had white powder all over there faces..... did the DWR flour bag them too?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I've personally interacted with Rick on several occassions and found him very easy to work with and a good guy. So I guess we've had different experiences. My view of DLL has nothing to do with the Church, as I personally consider it a completely different entity, with a different purpose and different objectives all together. So that's not it for me. In my professioanal life, I do environmental consulting, and have spent a good many years in land management. And from that perspective, DLL is everything that a land steward should be in how they manage their livestock to the benefit of wildlife, as well as a very profitable livestock operation. It is perhaps THE best example of land management for multiple uses in the United States. So I have a very high level of respect for them for that. 

As to the helicopter thing - I've heard these assertions, and asked about them. The answer I was given was one of cost. Its anywhere from $1,500 to $2,500 an hour to rent a helicopter and pilot, and any financial gain that might come from "hazing elk" with a helicopter simply would get eaten up in a matter of minutes for such a thing. It just doesn't make economic sense to do that. And DLL does not own their own helicopter either. I don't doubt you saw a helicopter, but I do doubt it was paid for by DLL. 

One thing worthy of discussion in my opinion, is that DLL has a pretty extensive winter feeding program for the elk. As a prime winter range, in years where snows are deep and its a rough go on the elk, DLL spends tens of thousands to feed the elk that winter on the ranch. They do this on their own, at no fee to the state. That is a double edged sword. It is a great thing to keep the elk from starving, but it also has habituated the elk to come to the ranch once the snow flies - kind of like at Hardware Ranch or Jackson Hole. It also keeps the herds in the entire region from crashing in tough years though. So there are certainly two sides to it.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

pkred said:


> I saw a group of crack heads that had white powder all over there faces..... did the DWR flour bag them too?


No the DLL did!


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

> hunting in desteret is great but if you want to see their true colors then hunt outside their borders and then we will see what you think and if you are good enough or lucky enough to kill some elk then you will see how it is. I have killed 10 or 11 elk all outside the borders and every year they try to stop me the day after I kill a bull you can count on the sheep being in that canyon for two to four days. then if they move them and you kill another bull they will push them back. all I have to say is go hunt it and you will see what they do.


I have hunted both sides of the fence when it comes to DLL. I would say they are no different then any other large CWMU on the outside borders. I have seen nothing shady. They patrol the borders of their property and ask questions just like the others to make sure people aren't trespassing and poaching. They put a flier on your car just so you would know that you should make sure your shot counts and that you won't be able to enter their property if your miss place a shot and cause your animal to cross onto their property. Can you blame them for asking with all the "shady hunters" out there. Guys who shoot an animal on their property and the try and pass it off saying they shot it somewhere else. DLL work very hard and keeps very detailed records so they can manage their property for the best hunting and best experiences possible. I would be willing to bet that if someone on here was from DLL that they could tell you of all kinds of stories about those shady hunter and they would far out way the shady rumors of DLL and would most likely hold a heck of a lot more truth.

It sounds more like you are on one side of a fence and see something going on and have no idea of what that really is and rather then ask you assume.


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## temproost (Sep 14, 2010)

pkred said:


> I saw a group of crack heads that had white powder all over there faces..... did the DWR flour bag them too?


 :O•-: that was flour?????? :O•-:


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

Any money collected for hunting on deseret to the church is a small fraction in comparison to ranching and other farming ventures. I would venture to say that any money brought in for hunting goes pretty much directly back into the operations for ranching purposes. If the church said, you can have hunting at DLL or ranching, hunting would be gone.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Don't be so sure. 100 bull elk hunts at $15,000 each isn't chump change.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> Have you ever tried to herd a elk on a horse? Its not really possible unless you have them behind a high fence.


This didn't happen on DL&L, but I have personally, with my own eyes, witnessed a herd of elk being herded just like you would herd wild horses. I watched from a couple of hundred yards up the hill as the horseman got a large herd of elk moving down a canyon. Then he circled them up in a clearing. The elk just kept circling and circling and the horseman was riding around them with a romal and quirt.

I've heard nothing but good things from those who hunt DL&L. I've heard nothing but bad things from those who hunt near DL&L. It's been that way for years.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> Don't be so sure. 100 bull elk hunts at $15,000 each isn't chump change.


How much in tips do guides get from $1.5 million in elk sales? I'd be protecting my investment also. Money is at the root of all evil, right? There's _plenty _of money involved in the hunting operations at DL&L.


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

You are right, definitely not chump change, although I don't think those numbers or at least how much of those numbers actually go to DLL or the church is a true representation. But what does vs other ranching business isn't even close. I believe nuts (walnuts?) are the biggest farm/ranch related product/income for the church by far. My info may be outdated or faded by my old memory  and you may just have much more accurate info than I do.


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

nobody watches their dimes and pennies more than the LDS church. so if they can make a few $$ off of elk, they will utilize that to the max. im up for a good conspiracy theory...


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Maybe this is too obvious of a question, but if you have problems every year with DLL why hunt so close to the property? Also I would hesitate shooting an animal that close to private property knowing that animals generally go a ways before they die. I guess maybe I just see things differently and try and prevent issues before they happen.


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## hemionus (Aug 23, 2009)

Deseret has become a model in the West and across the U.S. in land stewardship and how to run a profitable ranching operation at the same time preserving and increasing wildlife and it's natural habitats. This is FACT not an assumption. 

As for the conspiracy theories out there they aren't true. I used to think they might be true in my younger days but after spending time on the ranch, interacting with it's operators, and listening to experts in their respected field from across the country I know they are not. Because of their success they are under a microscope and following the rules and laws are top priority. 

Of course they don't want you hunting right on top of their borders, when you do shoot a critter that you fully expect to run back over to private then they have to spend the time and resources figuring out what went on. Trust me the few bulls that get shot on the public side has no impact to the herd well within the borders. 

As for herding the elk back on that is straight up retarded, and with flour bags that is even more retarded. As stated before it is next to impossible to herd elk. Very rarely do they hunt anywhere near the borders either, most the elk are well within the boundries, there is no need for them to do so. As for the flour bags :lol:, I am sure that was some sort of habitat project. Often things like herbicide or seed are flown over the project area because of the large scale.

And they do treat the public joe who draws a tag EXACTLY the same as the guy who paid, he gets to stay in the lodge with all the rich blokes and eat the same food and hunt the same amount of days and gets a guide just like everyone else. 

just my .02


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

i have had to opportunity to hunt on dll on several occasions thanks to the cwmu program and i can only say the experiances i had were more the pleasurable. the only occasion i witnessed horses and wheelers being used was
during recovery operations as for a hazing elk onto the property i ponder why in the world would they have to haze them with all the preasure there getting from hunters on the boundry, deer and elk both will naturaly go to areas that
they are not being hammered without any help from anyone else. and of course there going to patrol there boundries and question someone the run into also if someone does happen to wound a animal and it crosses onto dll
properties after verification i have witness them even help find the cripple, of course you jump the fence and try and find it without permission and you get caught you can be assured you are gonna be prosecuted for tresspass and yah the land owner does have the say if you can are cannot go onto his property to retrieve a downed animal. as far as the ranch personnel there a great group of folks who go out of there way to help out. as far as there participation in the cwmu program i just wish all the landowners were working under dll guidelines there wouldnt ever be a problem.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I wonder can any of you DLL experts tell me how predators are managed there? 

Would you figure there were as many cougar per sq mile on Deseret as on public lands? 

Do they employ trappers? Full time or part? How many?

Is it world class predator hunting there too?


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Just how many of you said you can't herd Elk??? 


The Ute Tribe did it for a span of 2 or 3 winters to sale off the Elk in the Basin! Horses, Planes, Copters, Snow machines, 4 wheelers and and pick'm up trucks! Small hurds, big hurds... They herded them all!

But I am not saying the DLL is doing it. It would be pretty hard to cover up what I seen them winters. But a couple of gents upon the ponies can sure get them going in one direction or another! 

And my opinion a boarder is a boarder. I planted my grass to the edge of my boarder, I will hunt to the edge of the boarder! I think it is little, and just a waste to have an animal waste just to teach someone a lesson!


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

BirdDogger said:


> > Don't be so sure. 100 bull elk hunts at $15,000 each isn't chump change.
> 
> 
> How much in tips do guides get from $1.5 million in elk sales? I'd be protecting my investment also. Money is at the root of all evil, right? There's _plenty _of money involved in the hunting operations at DL&L.


Your quote is completely incorrect. Money is actually quite righteous in how it can benefit the downtrodden and poor---actually it is completely neutral having no evil or good qualities. The root of all evil is the *love* of money, not money itself; big difference.


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## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> BirdDogger said:
> 
> 
> > > Don't be so sure. 100 bull elk hunts at $15,000 each isn't chump change.
> ...


Amen.


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## hemionus (Aug 23, 2009)

Tak's right though, a border is a border and people can hunt right up to it, hek i've done it too. I would be very hesitant though to shoot something right on the border, what a hassle plus I would need blood evidence to prove it was shot on public land before it crossed. 
Interesting tidbit about their border: The catcut (lightning ridge) that so many people walk and hunt on is actually on deseret, you think the forest service would let them cut it on the forest, yea right. They cut it in so people would have a place to walk and clearly know where the border is.


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## Kingfisher (Jul 25, 2008)

ah... the annual 'lets beat the crap out of DL&L' diatribe of 'i know this to be a fact'... and then all the black chopper, elk herding, protectionism, its the satanic church and evil henchmen and money stuff. its like a change of the season... something we all eagerly anticipate. my cousins who have more horses than common sense and a couple of buddies who have the same, all hunt south of DL&L cause they can. they annually brag to me how much money DL&L lost to them this year as they hunt on public property and do so quite ethically. they have never had an unpleasant encounter with DL&L personnel. they have had many unpleasant encounters with the folks around causey dam and the private property there... even while on public trails, coming out with elk, they encounter guards who accuse them of taking the elk on their property and subsequently hauling them out on public trails. so, i think that its not DL&L, but the evil causey estates people who are renting the choppers, planting microchips in the elk brains and guiding them thru satellite transmissions, giving them splitting headaches when they wander outside of the prescribed boundaries. have you seen some of those cabins up there, they are merely a 5,000 square foot front for a chiseled in stone 50,000 sq foot basement full of evil elk herding maniacs bent on complete elk, man and church domination! its simply time to man up fellers and stop the whining and rumor mongering. if you have the money, pay it, take a nice bull. if you dont, then hope you get lucky. elk go to the least pressure, the best grazing and the best habitat - thats a fact. on public property you have the most pressure and worst habitat - if you were an elk, where would you go? everyone has to have some kind of boogey man to hate and to blame for their own personal misfortune, lack of character, convenience, or what ever other kind of reason. DL&L, because of their success becomes the automatic 'go to' beat up fall guy here. this annual event is complete with character assination of indiduals, corporations, churches, etc... and for what? DL&L will quietly go on doing what they do best - the outstanding management of a gorgeous piece of land with great natural resources, a great cattle and sheep ranch with fantastic wildlife and they will continue to make a good profit. thats whats great about america! i will support any operation that is as successful as they are because its great for wildlife! i hope there are more and more of these operations because the few stupid animals that wander off may become a wall hanger for me or someone like you.


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## fivexfive (Aug 21, 2010)

I have not had the priveliage to hunt on DLL but I have hunted on lightening ridge and surrounding area, and I cant help but wonder if these indiviual who are complaining about "hurding elk" and dropping flour bags, are the same one's that I have wittnessed setting up deco's ten yards inside of the fence line and constantly bugeling and cow calling to try and get the elk to the public side. Isn't that the same thing but in reverse? How many salt licks have been left over by the old linemans cabin or pond, does DLL do that also? It appears to me that the hunters are keeping the elk on the DLL side by lining up on the border and hazing the elk to stay over on the other side.

With all of the thousansd acres of land and numerous canyons why not spred out a little and give the elk some room to move!


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

My post was not meant to disparage the church or DLL. Some people appear to be so blindly devoted to the church they won't even consider that there are shady back room good ole boy deals that happen in this state. I personally witnessed the dropping of bags that I assumed to be flour.It very well could have been seed or herbicide or some other substance. Mind you this happened in '98. Long before I began participating in online forums. There is no doubt DLL is run efficiently and other ranching operations and CWMU's should be paying attention to how they do things I suspect the others could learn a thing or two by studying their management strategies. I have heard the rumors of the folks at Causey Estates doing the same type of things. I,however,have never witnessed anything to make me wonder while hunting or fishing near their boundaries. In fact the dealings I have had with the owners that have cabins in Causey Estates have been anything but confrontational. It was probably '92 or '93 back when our deer tags were statewide and were part of a combination license. Before they closed the tributaries to protect the spawning kokanee. I launched my boat and headed toward the back to do some fishing but I also had my rifle and my shotgun with me. I ended up taking a 2x3, a limit of blues,as well as a limit of fish. When I returned to the truck one of the landowners was opening the gates at Causey Estates and saw the deer in the boat and he came down and talked to me ended up helping me drag the deer to the truck as well as the boat and the rest of my equipment. Never even questioned if I had taken the deer on Causey Estates. Are some of the stories rumors? I would have to say yes. Is it unreasonable to believe landowners that share a boundary with public lands especially those that sell guided hunts for 15,000+ engage in unethical behavior to push wildlife off the public lands and onto their property? I think not. I don't personally believe the church as an institution encourages or would tolerate such behavior but I am also enough of a realist to understand that all of us as human beings are subject to ethical shortcomings especially when large sums of money are involved.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

fivexfive said:


> I cant help but wonder if these indiviual who are complaining about "hurding elk" and dropping flour bags, are the same one's that I have wittnessed setting up deco's ten yards inside of the fence line and constantly bugeling and cow calling to try and get the elk to the public side. Isn't that the same thing but in reverse? !


There is a thought!


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> Money is at the root of all evil, right? There's plenty of money involved in the hunting operations at DL&L.





> Your quote is completely incorrect. Money is actually quite righteous in how it can benefit the downtrodden and poor---actually it is completely neutral having no evil or good qualities. The root of all evil is the love of money, not money itself; big difference.


You missed the part where I used the preposition "at" vs. the verb "is". I stand by my quote.  I also happen to agree with your assertion. I think the love of money rears its head in particularly ugly fashion when it comes to selling elk.


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## riptheirlips (Jun 30, 2008)

I participated in a horse ride to push the elk to DLL. It was late in the hunt and we rode from Lost Creek Dam across Belnap Canyon to the East trying to move the Elk to DLL to winter. They want the elk wintering on DLL where they feed them rather than having the elk come down into Croyden, Morgan etc and raising hell with the ranchers hay and cattle. Not a bad idea. So yes DLL does do a few things like that but I have never seen them try to move elk during the rifle hunt. Didn't DLL run a trespassers truck down a canyon one year??? Yes they did.


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## Beast (Apr 4, 2010)

So you helped them late in the Hunt, but then you go on to say that you have never seen them do it during the hunt? Sorry but I might have to call B.S. on that one!


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## eyecrazy (May 4, 2008)

they just use the sheep during the hunt. I will post the letter they put on my truck tomorrow


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Dropping flour sacks to scare elk........now that is funny :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I bet those elk are terrified of the pillsbury dough boy. Come on guys :lol: :lol: :lol: Can anyone find all the flour sacks or do they gather them up too?


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## eyecrazy (May 4, 2008)

the letter is posted on monster muleys could'nt figure out how to resize to post here. it is in general hunting


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

So what's wrong with the letter. Looks like to me they just want to make sure you know the rules. With all the other hunters they have to deal with up there that don't follow the rules can you blame them for wanting to make sure hunter know them and that they are being watched? Like someone else said over on MM I think you are taking it to personal.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I can see how some would get peeved at this; certainly firm, but it is worded pretty aggressively IMHO especially if they are handing these out left & right while using the term "you frequently hunt".


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## riptheirlips (Jun 30, 2008)

Beast said:


> So you helped them late in the Hunt, but then you go on to say that you have never seen them do it during the hunt? Sorry but I might have to call B.S. on that one!


You can call B.S all you like. With all the different time frames for hunting Elk, deer, Antelope I am sure there was some type of hunting going on. But as I said I have never seen them do it during the hunt. Should have spelled it out better I will rewrite that sentence just so you can understand a little more. " I have never seen them try to move elk during the elk hunt for the general public" I have seen them run a truck down the mountain of the #2 trespasser on their list at the time , forgot, "during the general elk hunt."


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I thought the letter was professional and warranted under the circumstances you described. I have to imagine they deal with idiots on a daily basis. The fence at the end of Wasatch is proof for me, knocked down and driven over for 50' in each direction. They have done a very good job of marking their boundaries, even where there aren't fences. The public needs to think about possible scenarios when hunting so close to private property.


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## wbcougster (Mar 12, 2010)

I personally know Ken Clegg, who runs security for DLL. Ken is a tremendous individual, so much so, I wish he were my neighbor.

Nothing wrong with the job Ken is doing. He was hired to protect DLL from trespassers and that is what he is doing. 

The folks we should be upset with are those who do "trespass" and create a need for DLL to hire security.


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## Stellarmike (Mar 12, 2009)

Security for DLL, would be a cool job!


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

+1 on cougster the ONES that we need to be condeming are the treaspass/poachers who go onto private propery
making the land owners either hire security are permanatly close there lands to all


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## Jkeys (Dec 22, 2015)

Deseret doesn't even own their own sheep. They lease grazing rights to various owners that they have long standing relationships with and they run their sheep up there. I too have spent a fair amount of time on DLL and I can testify that there are sheep all over that place throughout the summer and even the fall. They just manage it smartly and thus they really do healthy and good habitat and forage for both livestock and wildlife. I know that many hunters are upset that they can't hunt CWMU's around the state, but the honest truth is that that land is not owned or managed by the government and our tax dollars do not go towards it. We as citizens don't have any rights to be there. If you want to get a trophy DLL bull or buck, I suggest that you either put in for a state CWMU tag, or save your pennies and buy one straight out. Every hunter on the property gets a personal guide throughout their entire hunt and also has to pass a shooting test first thing when they get on the property. They aren't trying to prevent other people from having good hunting experiences around their ranch, they just want people to stop poaching animals on their fence line and claiming that the animal moved back across.


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