# What deer see??? Let's talk camo patterns.



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Alright, I have to turn to the experts here. I've grown up being told deer/elk only see in grayscale. Color was totally irrelevant as long as you had something to break up your outline.

Recently I was reading a blog discussing the effectiveness of different camo patterns out there. The post talked about deer and elk actually seeing in blue and violet wavelengths. The author took aim a little at Kuiu and Sitka based on the blue shades in their camo stating the patterns were not as effective as those tones would stand out to the game we are chasing. This guy was a clear Firstlite proponent, and likely a pro-staffer or promoter of some sort based upon other posts I saw on his website.

This led me to do some reading, and I found this OutdoorLife article: http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/big-buck-zone/2014/07/video-new-study-sheds-light-what-deer-see

So, since I don't speak deer, and the deer I shoot don't talk anyway to be able to answer the question, what do you guys think? Blues and whites are bad. Several subtle shades of green look like a big blob, so also bad. What camo patterns are the best?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I prefer tan canvas pants and a plaid flannel shirt of some sort.-----SS


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## rockroller (Dec 7, 2008)

Camo really works? I thought it was just to make you look cool haha !


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> I prefer tan canvas pants and a plaid flannel shirt of some sort.-----SS


So you're saying we should all be buying the tan versions of the Kuiu gear?


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## T-dubs-42 (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm all for new scientific discoveries, but that does not mean I would base my entire camo choice based off of one study. I have been reading up on this subject quite a bit as of late and one thing that I have found to be fairly common is that deer do not pickup on detail as well as we think. So for me its all about breaking up your profile and moving as little as possible. Call me a band-wagoner, but I am all for the new FirstLite fusion camo. I think it does a lot of things right based off of the most recent discoveries in the world of deer and elk eyesight.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> I prefer tan canvas pants and a plaid flannel shirt of some sort.-----SS


And it's cheaper.
I can't count how many animals I've killed while wearing the same kind of getup.
I like camo but THE NUMBER ONE thing that deer/elk see best is movement.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

I bet if you played the wind right and didn't make any crazy sounds, you could kill a lot of deer being butt naked with a pair of flip flops. 

Camo is not as important as people want you to believe it is. If it was we would all be rocking ghillie suits and spend time matching it to the environment. 

Breaking up your outline is a plus, but IMO the most important aspect of hunting clothing is that it performs exceptionally well.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I bet if you played the wind right and didn't make any crazy sounds, you could kill a lot of deer being butt naked with a pair of flip flops.


You are probably right. But I'm willing to bet that you don't hunt this way, but actually put on camo in some form. I agree performance is very important, but most gear companies make their clothes in various color options. Which pattern did you select and why?

I'm mostly just trying to get a discussion on camo patterns and their benefits and limitations when it comes to what the deer and elk actually see.

I've never hunted sheep or goats, but I recently read that they see much closer to people than deer and elk do, so just breaking up the profile is not going to work. You need to blend in. Anyone else read this or even experience it?


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## travis madden (Sep 29, 2007)

I invested in Sitka about 3 years ago and this has been my observation since doing so. 1st as mentioned the comfort factor was a plus. I had an experience archery hunting deer and I had just sat down right on a trail to glass. I had a doe and a fawn walk right up and dang near step on me I put my hands up when she was about 5 yards from me to stop her. Another experience archery hunting the Vernon for deer. Sitting against a rock had 3 bucks walk right up about 15 yards from me. They all stopped and turned their heads and looked right at me for about 15 seconds and then turned and walked away. Now, it may have been coincidence and the exact same thing may have happened if I would have been wearing X brand of camo so take what you will from it.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Years ago, before the internet, I had camo eye glass frames, a camo cigarette case and a camo cigarette lighter. All in the Woodland Camo pattern. It worked OK.

.


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## bow_dude (Aug 20, 2009)

Movement is the big thing. Deer pick up movement real quick. They also pick up on your face. If you can minimize your movement and keep your face covered, the rest is fluff.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I have specifically tried to avoid asking what brand is best, because there is no debating that all things being equal, Kuiu's guide pant will perform better in the mountains than a pair of Wranglers, regardless of pattern or color. (Just one example) 

I have tried to learn about specific camo patterns and what they mean. I realize some may feel this discussion means nothing, but I think that while it might not be the MOST important thing, there is still some benefit to the patterns and colors we choose to wear. I'm just trying to figure out what benefits are most prevalent. 

For my eyes, I really like Cabelas Outfitter camo and also Max-1. I think they just look really cool. But I am not a deer or an elk. And Cabelas has never really manufactured clothing that I have felt was quality enough to justify the price tag. Their gear seems pretty basic for quality and performance at non-basic quality and performance prices. So I haven't bought Outfitter camo gear. But I digress...


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I like the original Natural Gear.

.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

All I know is if it shines then you are out of luck. The reflection off the clothes is more important to me than the pattern. And I rarely wear camo......


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I've heard that camo patterns with larger blocks of color are more effective than those that have lots of detail in the pattern. The large blocks of color supposedly are more effective at breaking up your outline.

Full disclosure... I wear both. I wear the more detailed Cabela's Open Country and less detailed, more blocky Cabela's Predator camo. However, when I'm deciding which to wear it's purely based off of my own comfort. I tend to wear the Open Country camo on the muzzleloader deer because it's a little lighter weight but turn to the Predator camo for the muzzleloader elk because it's slightly heavier. Admittedly, I do prefer the darker, more brown colors of the Predator for the later hunts.

More fuller disclosure, I haven't been able to determine if one pattern is better than the other. I've been close enough to spit on deer & elk while wearing both.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

The best kind of camo is the kind that you are wearing while being downwind from an animal.------SS


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

I wonder which camo would be better for my truck. Would I get closer while I was roadhunting with Realtree or some kind of digital camo? :mrgreen:


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> I prefer tan canvas pants and a plaid flannel shirt of some sort.-----SS


You mean the 4k dollars I spent on new digital camo that I seen on a hunting show was a waste of money oh man. I thought it would make me invisible buy how much I paid for it.


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

One of my Zoology professors was an avid bowhunter. He always decked out in orange on the bowhunt. He stated the deer can't see orange but hunters can. He claimed to always be successful.
My professor said, and has been stated by others, it is the movement that deer pick up on not the gear your wearing.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> Alright, I have to turn to the experts here. I've grown up being told deer/elk only see in grayscale. Color was totally irrelevant as long as you had something to break up your outline.
> 
> Recently I was reading a blog discussing the effectiveness of different camo patterns out there. The post talked about deer and elk actually seeing in blue and violet wavelengths. The author took aim a little at Kuiu and Sitka based on the blue shades in their camo stating the patterns were not as effective as those tones would stand out to the game we are chasing. This guy was a clear Firstlite proponent, and likely a pro-staffer or promoter of some sort based upon other posts I saw on his website.
> 
> ...


 I would go to the Army,Navy store and buy the latest version of digit camo , that comes in different shades also, for ALOT cheaper than any other name brand , And I believe a lot research goes in to that stuff for obvious reasons. If its made for the sharp eye of a human then its probably good enough for animals. peace.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

To me movement, sent and sound are the biggest factors, I do wear camo for hunting and fishing, I like them better than denim, even though you can buy denim in camo, but I like to buy a size larger so when it's cold I can wear thermals more comfortably and they are more quiet when walking through brush than denim. I also like the 6 pocket style for things I don't want to have to take off my pack to get to.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I have a Columbia PFG shirt that is my favorite hunting shirt (PFG for hunting? hmmm....). Too bad they don't make pants to match!
My favorite hoodie is an Under Armour hoody in digital -- I've had this one for years, and it still looks new. I sure wish UA still made these...I'd buy a couple more!

the old BDU in Woodland is probably the best pattern on the market, but the only place you can buy it is Old Navy!


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## Winglish (Mar 28, 2015)

T-dubs-42 said:


> I'm all for new scientific discoveries, but that does not mean I would base my entire camo choice based off of one study. I have been reading up on this subject quite a bit as of late and one thing that I have found to be fairly common is that deer do not pickup on detail as well as we think. So for me its all about breaking up your profile and moving as little as possible. Call me a band-wagoner, but I am all for the new FirstLite fusion camo. I think it does a lot of things right based off of the most recent discoveries in the world of deer and elk eyesight.


First Lite is the BOMB! I don't know if the pattern matters at all. The important thing here is that First Lite is made out of wool. Wool = No scent. That's a huge plus. Scent-free clothing that is soft and comfortable and stays warm when wet? Sign me up!


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I've always been partial to the Realtree AP. Not that I really think it makes much difference, but it shows the dirt less when spending multiple days on the mountain and the scratches on the camo print ATV don't stand out as much.

Main reason I wear the camo is because the clothes I have in camo are made for hunting and perform well under those conditions.


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## stick&string89 (Jun 21, 2012)

longbow said:


> I wonder which camo would be better for my truck. Would I get closer while I was roadhunting with Realtree or some kind of digital camo? :mrgreen:


You will only get close in your truck if yiu have facepaint and a camo camp chair in the back.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk


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## stick&string89 (Jun 21, 2012)

Winglish said:


> First Lite is the BOMB! I don't know if the pattern matters at all. The important thing here is that First Lite is made out of wool. Wool = No scent. That's a huge plus. Scent-free clothing that is soft and comfortable and stays warm when wet? Sign me up!


I have wore asat first lite for the last 3 or so years. I bought some of there nes stuff a yearago and it all fell apart. Seems were riping and material was not holding a stitch. I seen if there was any type of warrenty and was turned away. With that said firstlite was great until that happenes.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Back to Vanilla's original post...how do these scientist figure out what deer see and don't see? Some kind of Pavlov"s Dog type experiment?


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## WillowCreekMan (Dec 17, 2014)

I am in agreement with all those who say that it does not matter much. Both deer and elk rely on 3 senses for saftey. Smell 40% Hearing 40% and sight about 20%. If people would worry as much about being down wind and being quiet they would do just fine regardless of what they are wearing. Its funny how people will spend all kinds of money on camo and then slam their tailgates, start up their chainsaws and ride up and down the roads on a noisy ATV.....save your money folks. wear a cotton orange hoodie that doesn't make noise... Be quiet while in camp as well as while hunting.. and be aware of wind direction. This has worked for me for 45 years


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

longbow said:


> Back to Vanilla's original post...how do these scientist figure out what deer see and don't see? Some kind of Pavlov"s Dog type experiment?


The OutdoorLife article talks about something very similar, but using different colors of LED lights. They learned when they saw the light, it was time to eat. They saw some colors better than others based upon this.


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## Watcher (Dec 31, 2008)

*Too much information*



wyogoob said:


> Years ago, before the internet, I had camo eye glass frames, a camo cigarette case and a camo cigarette lighter. All in the Woodland Camo pattern. It worked OK.
> 
> .


Me too but I got up to take a pee, came back and couldn't find them. I buy all my accessories in yellow now.

I've thought and read about this a lot and agree with the discussion. 
Camouflage works through concealment (whether by countershading, preventing casting shadows, or disruption of outlines).
Have you notices that when a person is ridge lined in the rising or setting sun - it doesn't make any difference what they're wearing - you see them moving? Movement, movement, and movement. Animals pick up movement, watch you, and when you get in their comfort zone they run away. If you've ever been sitting in the shadows and had a hunter walk up to you and scare the crap out of him you (or vise versa) you can appreciate.

I also agree don't get in a staring match. I think animals can see into your soul. At any rate when things are up close they can sure pick up on your eyes.

The one thing that hasn't been discussed is the light spectrum and that research indicates deer seem to process the (ultra-violet) UV spectrum better. ROYGBIV - from lowest/longest wave to higest/shortest: Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, Violet. UV is just outside our range of visible light but deer seem to "see" into it farther. That being said, I do believe that the "brighteners" that are put into commercial detergents heighted some of these "colors". I do use specialty prepared hunting detergents (without brighteners) for my cloths - not just because they're unscented.

I used to like the Preditor pattern of camo - big blocky pattern that I thought broke up your outline. I don't see it anymore.

You have to believe that the DoD spends a lot of money on researching and developing their pixilated camo. From the Wiki: While patterns can provide more effective crypsis (avoid observation) than solid color when the camouflaged object is stationary, any pattern, particularly one with high contrast, stands out when the object is moving. Jungle camouflage uniforms were issued during the Second World War, but both the British and American forces found that a simple green uniform provided better camouflage when soldiers were moving. Digital camouflage provides a disruptive effect through the use of pixellated patterns at a range of scales, meaning that the camouflage helps to defeat observation at a range of distances.

As has been said, a lot of game has fallen to folks in cotton blue jeans and flannel. So spend your money wisely.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

I hunted wearing Old Bear WW 2 Camo. Years and Years. Lots a patches lot of Thread They finally just got to the point where they had,, had enough, cremated them and spread the ashes. SAD day. I mean I spent 5.00 for them at the Army and Navy store down town Salt Lake,Went to Preadator Spring Green bout 15 years ago. All this New stuff is like making a House Payment. Also use an old Black and Green wool shirt. from the DI 7.00 bucks. But agree it's mostly bout movement. If you think your moving slow? Slow it down.No Quick hand, Head , or Arm movements.Along with your Camo, U will be fine.. One thing I do believe in is Face Paint. and scent control.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Camo is to hunters, what racks of fishing lures are to fishermen. It isn't about catching fish, it is about catching fishermen.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> Camo is to hunters, what racks of fishing lures are to fishermen. It isn't about catching fish, it is about catching fishermen.


The other day I decided to clean up my ice fishing gear, consolidate all my jigs into 1 box. Bought me a nice new big box with lots of compartments and started sorting stuff. After a 2nd trip to the store to get an even larger box with even more compartments... I realized I think I have enough jigs to last me ... and my boy, our lifetimes.

-DallanC


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> The other day I decided to clean up my ice fishing gear, consolidate all my jigs into 1 box. Bought me a nice new big box with lots of compartments and started sorting stuff. After a 2nd trip to the store to get an even larger box with even more compartments... I realized I think I have enough jigs to last me ... and my boy, our lifetimes.
> 
> -DallanC


But do you have any in realtree mossy oak break up, with gore tex carbon liner, and no-sound pocket closures?


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

travis madden said:


> I invested in Sitka about 3 years ago and this has been my observation since doing so. 1st as mentioned the comfort factor was a plus. I had an experience archery hunting deer and I had just sat down right on a trail to glass. I had a doe and a fawn walk right up and dang near step on me I put my hands up when she was about 5 yards from me to stop her. Another experience archery hunting the Vernon for deer. Sitting against a rock had 3 bucks walk right up about 15 yards from me. They all stopped and turned their heads and looked right at me for about 15 seconds and then turned and walked away. Now, it may have been coincidence and the exact same thing may have happened if I would have been wearing X brand of camo so take what you will from it.


I have had this happen while on a rifle hunt decked out all in hunter orange. More then once.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Fishracer said:


> I have had this happen while on a rifle hunt decked out all in hunter orange. More then once.


Had that happen a couple of times while hiking in tan dockers and an old grey Copper Hills Grizzly Football sweatshirt. Saw the deer coming, and stood on the side of the trail as still as I could and they walked close enough to reach out and touch.


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

I guess im going to have to pay more attention to my camo. You guys are calling your camo by name brands and patterns. Making me feel like a fool. All i know is some of mine looks like leaves and branches and others look like a bush. I have no idea who made it or what pattern it is. Most bought at walmart, but some coming from sportsmans and cabelas. I wonder if all the bucks and bulls ive harvested over the years feel less like a man because the hunter that shot him was not wearing designer camo. All serious tho, it makes sense to me about deer not seeing red. I have had a number of occasions were animals dont see me while wearing orange. They walk right to you and never know you are there unless you move. I have also been knelt down right in the middle of a heard of elk with camo from head to toe. Less then 3 yards from numerous elk and never knew i was there. Like many have said, movement is more of a factor.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

longbow said:


> Back to Vanilla's original post...how do these scientist figure out what deer see and don't see? Some kind of Pavlov"s Dog type experiment?


I saw the Outdoor Life colored light experiment but I've also seen articles that discuss the number of rods and cones in a deer's eye and from those observations and counts the researches extrapolate comparing their range of vision to our own.


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## twall13 (Aug 2, 2015)

So I'm a little late to the discussion but I'll add my thoughts. I pretty much agree with what has been said in that other factors are much more important (scent and the wind, movement, etc.). Still, I've fallen prey to the "it can't hurt anything" mentality and love my performance hunting clothes. They are more durable and comfortable than a lot of stuff out there and I dedicate them to hunting so I don't care if they get bloody or dirty. 

All that said, I think if you do want to wear camo the most important aspect of any camo is to break up your outline. So many of the camo patterns out there just look like a dark blob when you get 30 yards away. In my opinion, the best pattern for breaking up your outline is ASAT. It isn't a "good looking camo" but it is effective at breaking up your outline. I personally like the fusion camo pattern but truthfully ASAT is probably more effective at breaking up outlines. 

For rifle hunting you need to wear orange anyway. I've had enough close encounters with deer and elk to know that orange isn't something that will scare them off. Since you can wear orange camo in Utah I'm liking Kryptek's inferno pattern so I'm visable to humans but still have my outline broken up to ungulates.

Camo might be more important for turkeys, antelope, bear, coyotes, and other animals with better eyesight. Even then, movement, wind direction and not skylining yourself are more important than the camo.


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