# Monroe's recent big bucks



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Its been said that there are big bucks in all of Utahs units. So it got me thinking. I am not aware of any big bucks being taken off of Monroe. So I was curious, Has anybody seen a big buck shot of this Mtn in the last 10yrs? I will lower the bar on what I am calling a big buck. 27in 4pt. Doesnt have to be first hand maybe just someone you know or they know. I know there has to have been some taken I just wonder if anybody here can tell me of any. Not includeing the bottom of the mtn near farms. I now the DWR has no clue what has been harvested of this mtn in the last 15yrs. And that includes elk.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Three years ago a man from Monroe--last name Anderson--shot a 5x7 that was right around 30 inches. The buck was shot with a muzzleloader near signal peak. I have pictures of two different bucks that are alive right now that would probably fit your criteria...if I knew how to resize pics I would post them right now...

As for the DWR knowing or not knowing what has been harvested up there over the past 15 years...do you realize that the DWR runs a deer checkpoint near koosharem checking Monroe and Fish Lake bucks every year for CWD? Did you know that the DWR requires elk hunters to submit a harvest report when they receive an LE elk tag? I bet you money that they know more about what is harvested than you do...


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Did you know not everbody stops at a check station. They dont have one durring the archery. They dont have it open late at night and early in the morning. And not everybody reports there LE hunting results and the DWR still fills the statistic themselves. I now of 3 elk hunters on Monroe that didint report. Did you know that most hunters on Monroe havent ever seen a DWR officer durring the archery in there lifetime. Did you now there are many huge bulls in residents in Marysvale and Koosherem that were supposedly shot in Arizona. Dont give me any crap about the DWR having a good hold on harvest #s in the area. Mr Baney himself will tell you the area he has to patrol is so emence that there is no way he could enforce wildlife law wihtout the help of sportman like myself and family being the eyes and ears when he is not around. He isnt saticefied himself with some of the regulations. But like he has told me before its not in his hands. He says Im just a cop. Is it possible the there is a secret sector to the DWR and they travel around undercover documenting to have such a great pulse on the deer herd? I dare you two to go over to the Monroe archery this yr and tell all them long time family camps. The DWR is doing everything possible to better their deer hunting. And the deer hunting is fine. You would be run out of just about every camp and cabin up there.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

There always seems to be a buck buck up there. Last yr there was some guy up above Barney scouting a buck about like you desrcibe. Tuff hunting there!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> There always seems to be a buck buck up there. Last yr there was some guy up above Barney scouting a buck about like you desrcibe. Tuff hunting there!


That why there are big bucks there. _(O)_

As for people not reporting on their LE elk hunt, if they don't submit a survey they can NOT apply for any LE/OIL until they do. So, if you have 3 people you know who haven't done so, they must be done hunting LE/OIL. I also wonder, are these 3 'hunters' some of the ones accusing the DWR of not having a clue? If so, THEY are part of the PROBLEM by not submitting info that HELPS the DWR! Think about it!!!! :?


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

Iron
It must suck to live in a world with as much doom and gloom and hate as the world you live in.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Did you know not everbody stops at a check station.


Of course, I know...but many do. Have you ever worked at a check station? I have.



Iron Bear said:


> And not everybody reports there LE hunting results and the DWR still fills the statistic themselves. I now of 3 elk hunters on Monroe that didint report.


No harvest reporting is or is expected to be 100%. That's why they are called a statistically valid sample of what is harvested. Once the DWR get's a large enough sample, they can project percentages...that is all they really need. Also, I would bet there isn't a single unit in the country where anyone knows exactly what has been harvested. Even with mandatory harvest reporting not all hunters report. Check out this site for a thorough report on mandatory harvest reporting:
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR_E005349.pdf

Also, I bet the DWR knows about a lot more elk that were harvested and have aged those elk than you know about that weren't reported!



Iron Bear said:


> Did you know that most hunters on Monroe havent ever seen a DWR officer durring the archery in there lifetime. Did you now there are many huge bulls in residents in Marysvale and Koosherem that were supposedly shot in Arizona.


What's your points? IF you are aware of animals that were supposedly shot in Arizona and were shot in Utah, shouldn't you be letting the DWR know? Wouldn't that be the ethical thing to do. You are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution...which is it?



Iron Bear said:


> Dont give me any crap about the DWR having a good hold on harvest #s in the area. Mr Baney himself will tell you the area he has to patrol is so emence that there is no way he could enforce wildlife law wihtout the help of sportman like myself and family being the eyes and ears when he is not around. He isnt saticefied himself with some of the regulations. But like he has told me before its not in his hands. He says Im just a cop.


Don't? Are you really telling me that you know more about the harvest of animals on Monroe than the DWR does? Come on...how many harvest reports have you completed? How many hunters have you surveyed? How many deer have you checked at check stations?

Sure, Utah's Conservation Officers are spread thin...but that isn't because of the DWR. That is because of money handed to the DWR from the state legislature. Are you demanding that your representatives give more to wildlife law enforcement budgets? Again, are you part of the problem or part of the solution?



Iron Bear said:


> Is it possible the there is a secret sector to the DWR and they travel around undercover documenting to have such a great pulse on the deer herd? I dare you two to go over to the Monroe archery this yr and tell all them long time family camps. The DWR is doing everything possible to better their deer hunting. And the deer hunting is fine. You would be run out of just about every camp and cabin up there.


Again, how much time have you spent doing deer classification counts or deer harvest surveys? How much time have you spent sitting at check stations? The problem with guys like you is that you point the finger at everyone else for your own difficulties. Instead of whining about how bad your hunting is, get out and find a nice deer. They are out there. I see them every year...so do the DWR when they are checking deer, counting deer, and classifying them. Of course, though, you don't believe that...you are too busy drinking your favorite glass of whine!


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Give me the power and I wil improve the deer hunting on Monroe. I never said *I* was the athority on #s on Monroe. (thats obvious) But you seem to think that some of the DWRs #s arent flawed. And hence you only trust what the DWR is telling you. I find real world expierence is contrary to what you say. I unofficially survey nearly 100 hunters/non hunters throught a yr on Monroe. Mostly archers. I cant just negate the nearly 40 yrs hunting on Monroe and 1000s of colective yrs of expirience a draw from. And find it offensive some do. If you spent much time up there we have probably talked ourselves (not an accusation that your not up there often). Rarely have I met a person who wasnt disturbed by what has happend their. The only ones I can think of were never their when it was good. If it were a matter the hunter could control then he would. But its the regulations that dictate the trend of the herd. Not some old sentamental whinning of the days of old.

Dont worry! Im like a rash! I will go away! I havent got nearly the stanima for this arguing that a couple of pros have around here! :lol:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Give me the power and I wil improve the deer hunting on Monroe.


Can you offer a sampling of how you would 'improve' the deer herd on the Monroe? Remember, bucks do NOT give birth to fawns, so you need to explain how more bucks will equate with more overall deer. This is an honest/sincere request. 8)


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Wy2, Trust me, I wouldnt be here beating my head agianst a brick wall. If I was busy at anything. Little lone drinking a stinking glass of sour grape juice. You got me wrong im not a drinker in the slightest bit.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Are you baiting me Pro?  

For the longest time I would have not supported any LE deer on Monroe. (didnt need it) As far as I am concerned the deer are in an emergency state. In my Utopia today I woud first impliment 3pt or better w/some stipulations for youth. Second I would LE Monroe deer for now. Sorry I dont have the #s. But it would start relatively small and build as the herd got better. Third I would deregulate couger hunting so that if you see one shoot it. Still have a chase season. Put them in the same boat as coyotes. Like coyotes dont think that would kill them all. $20 bounty for yotes. Fourth no more ripping up what sage is left. I would also replant sage back on six patch. (traditional deer heaven)selective burn and cut pine. 5th incourage the Piute jamboree be held in early july instead of durring the archery. 6th compensate land owners (down low) to leave or grow some winter feed. Eventually I could see letting 1000s of hunters their per yr to harvest a deer.

Fire Away!


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Ironbear , got to stick with you about Monroe.archery. Anybody who hunts this unit knows the buck to doe ratio is out of wack,, Hence Pro, bucks breed does.. But when your herd is so outa wack.. and you see lots of dry does. What do you think the problem might be? A lack of bucks? I don't know what the answer is..All I know the unit is in terrible shape, Ironbear. if you know of someone who has taken bulls off Monroe by way of spot light or whatever.. You need to turn them suckers in!! As for the DwR officers..ask them about how many miles a month they are aloud a month. ask them about ther fuel alotment each month. All a person has to do is drive by their home. if the truck is parked there. Forget about checking stations, forget wardens taking data during the hunt. These guys have a thankless job. , wyo2 I'am a recovering alcholic. I haven't had a drink for 29 years.. So lighten up!! Its not always good ole boys who drink beers and drive new pick em up trucks,,Ironbear. talked to my freind. who has archery hunted Monroe with his family for 38 years, said he think he talked to you last year,, Told you that Monroe Mtn. and all its glory is done...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Are you baiting me Pro?  I would never do such a thing.  :wink:
> 
> For the longest time I would have not supported any LE deer on Monroe. (didnt need it) As far as I am concerned the deer are in an emergency state. In my Utopia today I woud first impliment 3pt or better w/some stipulations for youth. How would this help increase the population of deer? Second I would LE Monroe deer for now. Sorry I dont have the #s. But it would start relatively small and build as the herd got better. How would this help increase the deer population? Third I would deregulate couger hunting so that if you see one shoot it. Still have a chase season. Put them in the same boat as coyotes. Like coyotes dont think that would kill them all. $20 bounty for yotes. How would you implement this with all the bunny huggers that would oppose it? FWIW, I believe lions have a much bigger impact on deer numbers than many admit. Fourth no more ripping up what sage is left. Why would you keep older sage communities that have little/no nutritional value to deer and slow the growth of new sage communities that are very beneficial to deer, especially on crucial winter ranges? I would also replant sage back on six patch. (traditional deer heaven)selective burn and cut pine. 5th incourage the Piute jamboree be held in early july instead of durring the archery. Not sure how that would be beneficial to the deer, but I understand the frustrations it causes for the deer hunters. 6th compensate land owners (down low) to leave or grow some winter feed. With what funds? Eventually I could see letting 1000s of hunters their per yr to harvest a deer.
> 
> Fire Away! I appreciate your honest effort, and believe it or not I appreciate your passion for deer/hunting. I have no desire to squash that. My only desire is to maybe get you to think of other obstacles/opportunities facing deer in Utah. I would gladly spend a day/weekend observing deer/elk on the Monroe with you this coming summer if you're interested.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Wy2, Trust me, I wouldnt be here beating my head agianst a brick wall. If I was busy at anything. Little lone drinking a stinking glass of sour grape juice. You got me wrong im not a drinker in the slightest bit.


My comment was a metaphor...I wasn't implying that you are an alcoholic or a drinker of alcoholic beverages. I was implying that you are spending a lot of time whining and doing very little in return.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> For the longest time I would have not supported any LE deer on Monroe. (didnt need it) As far as I am concerned the deer are in an emergency state.


Great idea...you would increase the buck/doe ratio. The unit needs it. But, my question is whether or not that would actually help the deer herd. Would those added bucks replace does because of poor winter range?



Iron Bear said:


> In my Utopia today I woud first impliment 3pt or better w/some stipulations for youth.


Hmmm...antler point restrictions. You are going to focus all the hunting pressure on the oldest most mature deer and expect to have more big deer. It seems like Idaho, Oregon, Wyoming, Colorado, Montana, and Utah have all done this with poor results...why repeat the past?


Iron Bear said:


> Third I would deregulate couger hunting so that if you see one shoot it. Still have a chase season. Put them in the same boat as coyotes. Like coyotes dont think that would kill them all. $20 bounty for yotes.


Seeing as how there is a current Mtn. Lion study going on up there, it ain't gonna happen. But, the real key is that we already know--with certainty--that the lions are NOT to blame for the deer herd problems. We know this because at the start of this cougar study--about 10 years ago--the cougar population was very low (as evidenced by the poor cougar hunting that resulted in years of heavy hunting pressure). When the cougar population was low, the herd did NOT rebound as it should have had lions been the limiting factor. But, we know that all other factors are not good--specifically the winter range--and the deer herd has not rebounded fully. In fact, as the winter range has improved, so has the deer herd...at the same time the cougar population has also improved.

In my opinion, the cougars are much less of a threat to the deer herd than the coyotes....but, in the case of Monroe Mountain, I don't see either predators as limiting the deer herd.


Iron Bear said:


> Fourth no more ripping up what sage is left. I would also replant sage back on six patch. (traditional deer heaven)selective burn and cut pine. 5th incourage the Piute jamboree be held in early july instead of durring the archery. 6th compensate land owners (down low) to leave or grow some winter feed. Eventually I could see letting 1000s of hunters their per yr to harvest a deer.


Habitat improvements are definitely needed...I will trust the range specialists to fix things. I do know, though, that old sagebrush communities supply little nutrition to deer.

Moving the ATV jamboree to july won't help the deer herd...it may help your deer hunt, but not the deer herd. I doubt, though, that the DWR has any control over the jamboree or its timing.

The problem with compensating landowners is that we are already doing it...we are doing it in the form of depredation tags/monies. The problem is that we are harvesting around 200 deer a year for eating landowner crops. We need to work with landowners to keep deer off their land so that they don't kill does...which is currently being done. The problem is that many landowners don't want to work with the DWR because they lose depredation tags and money....


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

> I appreciate your honest effort, and believe it or not I appreciate your passion for deer/hunting. I have no desire to squash that. My only desire is to maybe get you to think of other obstacles/opportunities facing deer in Utah. I would gladly spend a day/weekend observing deer/elk on the Monroe with you this coming summer if you're interested.


If he isn't interested or can't Pro I will.I don't know the area and have no interest in hunting down there but it would be interesting to see how it compares to the northern region.The only reason I have no interest in hunting down there is because I am determined to kill my deer of a lifetime in the northern due to everybody believing it can't be done on public ground.Let me know.I'll even buy the pie when were done.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Done deal! We will have pie at The Merc in Antimony, believe me it is worth the trip down south just for Reba's homemade pies!


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Good deal.I will be looking forward to it.


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## skeptic (Apr 17, 2008)

I archery hunt across the highway, over on the Boobe Hole and have done so for almost thirty years, I spend on average 15-20 days on the mountain. The deer population is way different than years previous, this year I saw even less dear than normal (full moon, heat, etc. etc.) I do believe 3pt or better with actual enforcement would work. I did see some nice bucks and missed at 10 yards  oops! But I saw very few small bucks and does with extremely small fawns. I believe if we do not do something ( 3pt or better, micro-manage, choose you region for the whole hunt, something!) we are going to see it get worse. I will continue to hunt down there as I can always find nice bucks if you are willing to hike for them, but in no way is the population as good as it once was.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't know about big bucks that have been harvested in the last ten years per se, but I know members of my family have seen VERY big bucks up there, on the Cove Mtn side in the last ten years. One of 'em even had just ONE EYE! Just kidding! But seriously, last time my family was up there fishing, we did see some very nice bucks, so I know they are there. 

If there are so many dry does up there, how come they don't hold a management hunt for them? Clear out some of the non-breeding, biomass consuming animals to make room for more reproduction. Just my .02


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

wyo2. Whinning? where the heck did that come from? you can post your feelings and stats and opinoins? I state mine, and thats whinning? Give me a break. Get down to Monroe this spring.Take a drive from there over the mountain to Otter Creek. Then drive back to the town of Lyman, over the top of Hogans Pass to I-70. While going down I-70 take the turn off marked Gooseberry road. Drive over the top to 7 mile, in the process take the road over to the Bobbie Hole. Then get back to me and let me know what kinda biological stat or herd count you come up with.. I make this trip about 5 times a year, and what use to be. is not anymore, I know we are both passionate about are deer herds. But there is no way we will ever see eye to eye on this subject.. This will probally make you happy. I will not comment any further.. Have a goood one..


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

oldfudd said:


> wyo2. Whinning? where the heck did that come from? you can post your feelings and stats and opinoins? I state mine, and thats whinning? Give me a break. Get down to Monroe this spring.Take a drive from there over the mountain to Otter Creek. Then drive back to the town of Lyman, over the top of Hogans Pass to I-70. While going down I-70 take the turn off marked Gooseberry road. Drive over the top to 7 mile, in the process take the road over to the Bobbie Hole. Then get back to me and let me know what kinda biological stat or herd count you come up with.. I make this trip about 5 times a year, and what use to be. is not anymore, I know we are both passionate about are deer herds. But there is no way we will ever see eye to eye on this subject.. This will probally make you happy. I will not comment any further.. Have a goood one..


Fudd, I live in Monroe...I am free almost the entire summer to enjoy by favorite hobby of fishing. I probably double the number of trips up and down those mountains that you do. Yet, as much as I am up on Thousand Lake Mountain or on Monroe, I am yet to classify deer or even spend half the time classifying deer that the DWR does. Again, when was the last time you counted 2,389 deer on Monroe and classified them as bucks, does, and fawns? Since you make that trip so much and are in that area so much, I suggest you start spending the time to count the animals and classify them.


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## RynoUT (Feb 16, 2008)

The sooner everyone accepts that the biggest impact to the deer herds is humans, the sooner things may possibly rebound. Sure the Coyotes and Lions have an impact, but they have always been there and are a part of the natural cycle. My opinion is that the things outside of the natural cycle are to blame...
A few examples: 

Cows...The impacts are obvious, but imagine the rise in cost of beef if the ranchers were forced to pay the feed bill all summer. 

Fire... Fire is a part of the natural cycle, but has been taken out to the best of man's abilities for many years. Fire is a very important part of diversifying the age class of the plant life on the mountain. The Forest Service has begun to slowly re-introduce fire into the picture via prescribed fire and wildfire use, and over time this will hopefully help. 

The removal of sagebrush around Six Patch was mentioned, and this is another attempt to stimulate new growth and diversify age class, not get rid of the sagebrush. Hopefully this is a successful method as well.

Human pressure...There is no denying that the amount of pressure on the hill has increased over the years. Hunters, Shed Hunters, Videographers, Photographers, ATVers, Fisherman, Hikers, Campers, Snowmobilers.....These numbers are all on the rise and every one of these people have the same right to be there. But combined, all this activity has to have an effect.

ATV Jamboree... Not a fan myself. It only lasts a week, but many of the return riders have discovered that it's much nicer to come a few weeks earlier or later and not have to eat everyones dust. Instead of 1 week it seems to last about 6 weeks nowadays. However the boost to local economy is undeniable.

It is outlandish to expect the herds to maintain themselves, much less increase their numbers without addressing issues such as these and many others. Nobody has all the answers, but I think the answers lie in "What has changed"

Email the DWR with suggestions and positive criticism... Volunteer... Participate in Dedicated Hunter Projects...Turn in poachers...Get involved if you wish to see change and maybe down the road things will turn a different direction...

Just my .02


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I think the jamboree is an indirect result of the crummy deer hunting. I agree those towns have to make some money somehow. As for the sage. Maybe it will regenerate. I would have liked to see a few acres done first. Before they did what they did. Behind Dry Creek ranger station is another area that has been torn out and was a last strong hold for deer on the mtn.

Could it be that most of the land management athority lies in the hands of the Forest Service BLM, and Private and some state lands. For one the FS or the BLM is not in the deer or elk biz. One thing they are in the buisiness of is selling grazing leases. The better the graze the more cattle. The more the FS or BLM gets for that lease. The dixie harrow I witnessed was Forest Service. Not DWR. Sure rip out sage the FS figures. They replant grass seed after. Wheres the sage? Elk dont mind new planted grass. This avoids a conflict between the DWR, Cattlemen, BLM and FS on how to manage lands, (protect sage or not) Take the Six patch for example. Was all sage now is probably only 20% sage and grass has replaced it. When you look at it what do you notice. I notice cattle and elk. Cattle by the hundreds feeding and feeding 24hrs a day. Im no botanist. But I do have a lawn. And if I let anything graze on my lawn while I was trying to get new sage shoots to spout and live to become a bush. Wouldnt happen. I wouldnt even want foot traffic little lone grazeing.

Just a thought.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*Big bucks? or Big Bulls?*

I have hunted the Monroe on and off for the past twenty five years or better. I even guide down there for more years than I would care to count. Back in the 80's you would see primarily deer while out hunting and scouting. Yes there were a few elk but the herds were small and closely managed. Monroe has always been a limited entry elk unit and the permits for many years were around ten tags per year. I would always find four or five nice bucks each year and I have seen a couple that would push the forty inch mark.

About 1995 things started to change. The cattle per feed allotment were cut and the forest service started to enforce grassing infractions. The elk numbers boomed. Deer on the other hand started to plummet in numbers, form a combination of all the reason posted. However one major factor is being totally ignored and that is increasing elk numbers and the impact that this has on Mule deer.

During the same time frame the Thousand Lake Unit had excellent numbers of deer and virtually no elk. After the winter of 1993 the DWR decided to decrease the number of deer on the Thousand Lake Unit and increased the doe permits in this area in an effort to reduce winter kill. This little move had a drastic effect on the buck to doe ratios and reduced the buck numbers less than 10 bucks per 100 does. The DWR thought that they could bring the buck to doe ratio's up by harvesting more does and in two seasons they harvested approximately 1400 does off the unit with special draw and depredation hunting. Deer numbers crashed and the unit was put into a limited entry status. In the mean time the elk moved in and set up house.

Oh yes there are still big bucks on the Monroe and Thousand Lake! However, if you want more deer, then you need to take about 35 percent of the elk herd off of the Monroe to have any meaning full increase in the deer herd&#8230;&#8230;Big


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Big bucks? or Big Bulls?*



bigbr said:


> Oh yes there are still big bucks on the Monroe and Thousand Lake! However, if you want more deer, then you need to take about 35 percent of the elk herd off of the Monroe to have any meaning full increase in the deer herd&#8230;&#8230;Big


If this were true the deer should be THRIVING on the Monroe! The elk herd has been in decline for 10 years, to the point where it is at 50% of population objective. You claim a 35% decline would result in an increased number of deer, yet a 50% reduction has according to you done NOTHING to increase deer numbers. How is that possible? :?


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

I usually stay out of the threads like this....but I have to just say one thing.....

I went out THIS morning for a 15 minute ride on the Monroe. I saw over 200 deer. Lots of little bucks and the biggest one was a 185" class 30" wide buck! He was a great deer that I would have shot in a HEARTBEAT! I will be going there again to take some pictures of him. I will post them up if I get some good ones!


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: Big bucks? or Big Bulls?*

[quote="proutdoors]If this were true the deer should be THRIVING on the Monroe! The elk herd has been in decline for 10 years, to the point where it is at 50% of population objective. You claim a 35% decline would result in an increased number of deer, yet a 50% reduction has according to you done NOTHING to increase deer numbers. How is that possible? :?[/quote]

Pro,

As has happened on the Henry Mountains with our deer herds, the Monroe is the poster child for elk with it's unhealthy bull to cow ratio's and being artificially manipulated through controlled "Trophy" bull hunting. The bull numbers on this unit are so high that they effect new calf recruitment, and so as with the Henneries on deer decline, we see a similar situation with the elk on the Monroe. I would argue the fact that we have met or exceeded the carrying capacity on the Monroe and we are loosing ground fast to new recreational development. I do not give a rodents hind-end about what the projected model says there should be on this unit for elk numbers. Mother nature has a way of setting the numbers regardless. If, we are so depleted in elk numbers on the Monroe, why is it that we have had a management antler restricted bull hunt in place for the past two years along with a split season trophy bull hunt? Is the spike hunt this year on the Monroe designed to increase trophy potential? Or would it be to reduce bull numbers to try and increase calf recruitment? Again a case of management impedance on elk numbers on the Monroe unit. Bulls do not bread each other and propagate the species only frogs and fish have this ability.

To bemoan the original point, which is: "Are there big deer on the Monroe?" Yes there are! The side point being, is it bad to have more bull elk on the Monroe and less deer in order to have a trophy class opportunity at elk in the state of Utah? I for one like the fact that we have world record breaking elk in Utah and on the Monroe; although I do not think that biologically the past management practice is sound nor healthy for the elk herds.

Your example of logic through math leaves me a bit bewildered and scratching my head, but I can live with it and chose to just point out a few points of interest and discussion&#8230;..Big


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Big bucks? or Big Bulls?*



bigbr said:


> Your example of logic through math leaves me a bit bewildered and scratching my head, but I can live with it and chose to just point out a few points of interest and discussion&#8230;..Big


What you missed is my PROOF that your theory is flawed/wrong. You said if the elk herd were reduced by *35%* the deer herd would increase. I merely pointed out that the elk herd has been reduced by *50% * over the last 10 years and yet the deer herd continues to struggle. I never addressed the causes of the declining elk herd, many of which you are 100% correct on FWIW. My point is the deer struggles on Monroe are NOT just, or even mostly, affected by the elk population on the Monroe unit. Habitat is the primary, secondary, and last limiting factor. Get the habitat improved, which is being done through many different fronts but they are NOT going to increase deer numbers over night. Sage brush takes a minimum of 10 years to start to benefit deer, aspen riparian areas do not reach maximum efficiency instantaneously either. Elk are waaaay down the line on limiting factors of deer population numbers on the Monroe.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Oldfudd just described a drive my family has been making for over 40 years. I've probably walked every square inch of mountain from Gooseberry Road/I-70 to Gates Lake and some miles beyond down along the Sevenmile Creek area. That's where we've hunted since I came out of the womb. The decline of the deer population in that area has nothing to do with elk at all. The 4-wheeler trails that now zigzag like a spiderweb all over the mountain have an awful lot to do with the declining deer population. So does the widening of the road and all the construction that's been taking place on that mountain for the past 5 years or so. The mountain has become a public recreation area that's easily accessed and extremely heavily used. It used to be a rutty, winding road. Now a bunch of it's asphalt and it's wide and graded all the way up to Brown's Hole. They've started over the top and it won't be long before it's a dang four-lane highway all the way from I-70 to Fish Lake. There is almost no place left on the mountain that's not accessible by 4-wheeler. The deer numbers have crashed exactly in line with the increase of construction (destruction IMO) on the mountain.
There are still a few deer on the mountain, but you'd better be prepared to get off the wheelers and hike the steep and thick stuff if you want to find them.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Pro,

What I think that you are missing here is the fact that elk do have a major impact on deer numbers, not only on Monroe but throughout the state. Oh yes by all means habitat is a crucial factor, but to boldly state that elk numbers have little or no effect on deer numbers is a little narrow minded. The biggest limiting factor on both deer and elk numbers is WINTER habitat, which tends to be a big problem in the management scheme, because much of the winter habitat is located on private property and some people are unwilling to feed wildlife, because they have such a vested interest in livestock.

Elk, out compete deer on the winter range and drive the deer in to less desirable and more dangerous forage areas. In mild winters we have less conflict, but last year and most likely this year, we will see how the elk will strip every eatable bit of forage off of the foothills and drive the deer right down in to the towns and cities to try and eek out a living. This is more apparent on the Wasatch front but it plays out everywhere deer and elk exists together. Look at the numbers of deer and elk that are being hit on the road in cities and towns across our state. Deer tend to get stressed much easier than elk and their mortality rate seems to be much higher under winter conditions. To assume that elk have no correlation to deer health is just plain ignorance and stupidity. 

The DWR has stated that they feel feeding deer and elk is counter productive and is the last thing that they will spend money on, even though for years the Cache Unit has been benefiting from the feeding at Hardware Ranch. If we do not want to see further set backs to the deer herds, we had better gear up to implement feeding program right now.

I work for the government, and it has been government policy, since 9/11 to fence more and more areas that are in critical winter habitat. This has taken valuable food sources away from wildlife and only adds to the decline in usable winter range. 

Big


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bigbr said:


> What I think that you are missing here is the fact that elk do have a major impact on deer numbers, not only on Monroe but throughout the state. Oh yes by all means habitat is a crucial factor, but to boldly state that elk numbers have little or no effect on deer numbers is a little narrow minded. The biggest limiting factor on both deer and elk numbers is WINTER habitat, which tends to be a big problem in the management scheme, because much of the winter habitat is located on private property and some people are unwilling to feed wildlife, because they have such a vested interest in livestock.


I think in certain situations elk have SMALL impacts on deer numbers, but it was YOU who said a 35% reduction in elk numbers on the Monroe would increase the deer herd, yet I showed that there has been a 50% reduction in elk numbers with little/no increase in the deer herd. I contend that there are many factors causing deer AND elk populations to struggle on the Monroe, so to say the biggest is elk is nonsensical, it is w/o a doubt habitat!


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Pro,

I did not say that elk was the biggest factor! In my opinion, Winter habitate is the biggest limiting factor for both deer and elk. And that Elk do out compete deer on winter range which leads to higher deer mortality.

Big


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Big bucks? or Big Bulls?*

YOU'RE words:


bigbr said:


> Oh yes there are still big bucks on the Monroe and Thousand Lake! However, if you want more deer, then you need to take about *35 percent* of the elk herd off of the Monroe to have any meaning full increase in the deer herd&#8230;&#8230;Big


I am pointing out that the elk herd is *50% *of what it was 10 years ago, yet the deer herd has NOT increased as YOU imply it would. :?


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*Saved by Grace*

Are we saved by Grace or By Works?

My post was to point out that elk competition had not even been considered in the topic and that yes it is a factor in deer numbers. If deer are trully the consern? Then would it not make sense to look at all factors, even elk. And yes I do think that 35% elk reduction on Monroe would help deer herds on the Monroe due to harsh winter conditions. It would appear that the DWR is thinks that a large number of bull elk most go also.
The DWR must also feel that the deer on Monroe are in trouble because they have limited the muzzy and any weapon hunts to just five days in 2009....Big


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Saved by Grace*



bigbr said:


> Are we saved by Grace or By Works?
> 
> My post was to point out that elk competition had not even been considered in the topic and that yes it is a factor in deer numbers. If deer are trully the consern? Then would it not make sense to look at all factors, even elk. And yes I do think that 35% elk reduction on Monroe would help deer herds on the Monroe due to harsh winter conditions. It would appear that the DWR is thinks that a large number of bull elk most go also.....Big


You are saying a 35% reduction on top of the already 50% reduction is needed? WOW! Why not just kill 100% of them. The elk herd is at it's lowest population in 15+ years, how much lower do you want it to go down?

As for the DWR wanting to reduce the number of bull elk on the Monroe, that is true. Ironically though, the reason they want to reduce the bull:cow ratio is to INCREASE the elk population. :shock:


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Sorry pro, 

I edited my last post durring your reply...Big


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: Big bucks? or Big Bulls?*



bigbr said:


> Bulls do not breed each other and propagate the species only frogs and fish have this ability.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

For a good discussion on the topic of how elk affect deer populations, read the following link:
http://www.createstrat.com/muledeerinth ... edeer.html

Also, FWIW, in the DWR's unit management plan for deer on the Monroe Mountain, it states: "Interspecific competition - No limitation generated by elk/deer interactions has been documented."


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Also, FWIW, in the DWR's unit management plan for deer on the Monroe Mountain, it states: "Interspecific competition - No limitation generated by elk/deer interactions has been documented."


WY2UT,

Thanks for the link, it has some great information.

Isn't it ironic that the DWR has recognized that the high bull to cow ratios are retarding elk numbers on the Monroe and yet, as Pro insists, we are only at 50% capacity on the Monroe for elk herd strength. Would that not indicate that the DWR has already identified the carrying capacity of the Monroe unit? And if so, why would a few more bull elk numbers inhibit the elk herd growth on the unit if the unit has the carrying capacity as has been modeled? Now, if the increased numbers of bulls are having an impact on the elk herd, would it not stand to reason that maybe the carrying capacity of the unit has been reached?

And if we have reached carrying capacity on the Monroe and the increase in bull elk numbers on the Monroe are retarding calf elk recruitment, how can this not effect interspecific competition between deer and elk? The King and Hatch families that surround the Monroe Mountain will tell you that the elk are **** sure competing with there cows for there winter hay supplies. And to give Pro credit, it is habitat-habitat-habitat, that is the problem, but it may have something to do with SNOW!!!!

Sometimes you have to get out of the office to document animal behavior and interaction between species, before you write the conclusion to your thesis statement. As a long time trapper, I can tell you that the DWR has not got a clue when it comes to furbearer regulation and policies for the very reason stated in the first sentence of this paragraph.&#8230;&#8230;.Big


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