# Hunting squirrels??



## hoghunter011583

I can't find a season on the little buggers or even if it is legal. Is hunting them legal in Utah, I'm looking for the little red pine squirrels and the rock squirrels.
I see people shooting them all the time but that doesn't really mean much to me!!


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## Fishrmn

Again?!?!?

R657-19-5. Nongame Mammal Species - Certificate of Registration Not Required.
*(1) All nongame mammal species not listed in Section R657-19-4 as requiring a certificate of registration, may be taken:

(a) without a certificate of registration;

(b) year-round, 24-hours-a-day; and

(c) without bag or possession limits.*
(2) A certificate of registration is not required to take any of the following species of nongame mammals, however, the taking is subject to the provisions provided under Section R657-19-10:

(a) White-tailed prairie dog, Cynomys leucurus; and

(b) Gunnison prairie dog, Cynomys gunnisoni.

http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r657/r657-019.htm#T5


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## hoghunter011583

Thanks so much, I knew it had to be in writting some place I had just never been able to find it!


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## Chaser

Rest assure, if you haven't been able to find it, neither has another forum member, and there is likely a thread discussing it. Do a quick search for past posts, and you'll likely find it.


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## wyogoob

Chaser said:


> Rest assure, if you haven't been able to find it, neither has another forum member, and there is likely a thread discussing it. Do a quick search for past posts, and you'll likely find it.


This topic comes up every fall. It's a good one.

Here's one post Chaser is talking about:
viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28388&hilit=pine+squirrels

I'm as confused as ever (there's a switch) Can't they just simply say in the proclamation "You can (or can not) kill Pine Squirrels without a license" :?:

So hoghunter, this is what you posted a year ago:
Re: Squirrel tails = $$
by hoghunter011583 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:46 pm

You are right Chaser, I called last year about it and they said it is illegal to shoot them. But they said we really don't care if you shoot them, they are protected because they don't want them being sold or made into pets. They said you will be ok shooting them, but don't try to sell them.

Has something changed since then to make you ask about it again?

I was going by what you said. Hell, am I gonna have to turn myself in?


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## hoghunter011583

Lol, yeah I searched for it in the archives but didn't find anything rock solid like the link that fishrmn posted. So, I usually just shoot a few per year and don't really worry about it. I'm wanting to get back into taxidermy and want to shoot a bunch for some practise work. Because I'll be shooting a bunch I wanted to make sure that I can legally do it. The fact that when I called the first time the lady said it is illegal but we don't care got me a little nervous. What if the guy is having a bad day and busts me for shooting 20 pine squirrels!!
So, I called this morning and the lady and the DNR office said it is not legal you can't just go shoot them. You need a certificate. I asked if she was sure because last year they said it was ok and she said read the portion under the zoological proc. about them being controlled. I said well the lady told me last year that even though it says controlled it means you can't catch them for pets and sell them. She said no it is illegal!
So, I wanted to see for sure what was the real law and I couldn't find it.
Hey at least I'm trying to obey the law and not just assuming that all you ******** shooting them with AR-15s out of the back of the truck are law abiding citizens!!
They need to do a better job on the procs, one part says chipmunks are controled and then 2 lines down it says chipmunk not controled!! Hard to know for sure and I don't want DNR knocking on my door when I have 30 squirrels hanging off the wall!!
I can see it now, I'll be in prison for trafficing and storing rare and endangered ground squirrels!!


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## wyogoob

thanks hog

Aren't the certificate of registration rules separate from hunting regs?

What I remember it's illegal to kill them unless they are pests, but I can't prove thats the regulation. It's in 23-20-? I think, not R657. It's all pretty confusing. Another example is killing rattlesnakes. The rules are all there, but you play hell trying to find them all.

Speaking of ********, I got on the squirrel hunting forums. (Yes, we ******** have squirrel hunting forums) One had a squirrel hunting regulation chart and listed Utah as N/A and another didn't have Utah listed as a squirrel hunting state. For whatever that means.


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## Fishrmn

http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code.htm
R657-3-7. Nuisance Birds -- Nuisance Porcupine, Striped Skunk, and Squirrel.
(1)(a) A person is not required to obtain a certificate of registration or a federal permit to kill American Crows or Black-billed Magpies when found committing, or about to commit, depredations upon ornamental or shade trees, agricultural crops, livestock, or wildlife, or when concentrated in such numbers and manner as to constitute a health hazard or other nuisance, provided:

(i) none of the birds killed pursuant to this section, nor their plumage, are sold or offered for sale; and

(ii) any person killing American Crows or Black-billed Magpies shall:

(A) allow any federal warden or conservation officer unrestricted access over the premises where American Crows or Black-billed Magpies are killed; and

(B) furnish any information concerning the control operations to the division or federal official upon request.

(b) A person may kill American Crows or Black-billed Magpies by any means, excluding bait, explosives or poison, and only on or over the threatened area.

(c) American Crows and Black-billed Magpies killed pursuant to this section shall be collected immediately and must be disposed of at a landfill that accepts wildlife carcasses or must be buried or incinerated.

(d) This subsection incorporates Section 50 CFR 21.42 and 21.43, 2002, ed., by reference.

(2)(a) A person may *capture, transport, and kill or release* a nuisance porcupine, striped skunk, or squirrel without obtaining a certificate of registration.

(b) A nuisance porcupine, striped skunk, or squirrel may be released only as follows:

(i) within 48 hours of capture;

(ii) within the county in which it was captured; and

(iii) in a location where it does not pose a risk to human health or safety, or create other conflict with humans, agriculture, or other animals.

The reason for this being different than R657-19-4 is that it allows you to *capture, transport, and kill or release* them. R657-19-4 allows *(1) All nongame mammal species not listed in Section R657-19-4 as requiring a certificate of registration, may be taken:

(a) without a certificate of registration;

(b) year-round, 24-hours-a-day; and

(c) without bag or possession limits.*

R657-19-4. Nongame Mammal Species - *Certificate of Registration Required.
(1) A certificate of registration is required to take any of the following species of nongame mammals:*

(a) bats of any species; and

(b) pika - Ochotona princeps.

(2) A certificate of registration is required to take any shrew - Soricidae, all species.

(3) A certificate of registration is required to take a Utah prairie dog, Cynomys parvidens, as provided in Sections R657-19-6, R657-19-7, R657-19-8 and R657-19-9.

(4) *A certificate of registration is required to take any of the following species of nongame mammals in Washington County:
*
(a) cactus mouse - Peromyscus eremicus;

(b) kangaroo rats - Dipodomys, all species;

(c) Southern grasshopper mouse - Onychomys torridus; and

(d) Virgin River montane vole - Microtus montanus rivularis, which occurs along stream-side riparian corridors of the Virgin River.

(5) *A certificate of registration is required to take any of the following species of nongame mammals in San Juan and Grand counties:
*
(a)* Abert squirrel - Sciurus aberti;
*
(b) Northern rock mouse - Peromyscus nasutus; and

(c)* spotted ground squirrel - Spermophilus spilosoma.
*
(6) The division may deny a certificate of registration to any applicant, if:

(a) the applicant has violated any provision of:

(i) Title 23 of the Utah Code;

(ii) Title R657 of the Utah Administrative Code;

(iii) a certificate of registration;

(iv) an order of the Wildlife Board; or

(v) any other law that bears a reasonable relationship to the applicant's ability to safely and responsibly perform the activities that would be authorized by the certificate of registration;

(b) the applicant misrepresents or fails to disclose material information required in connection with the application;

(c) taking the nongame mammal as proposed in the application violates any federal, state or local law;

(d) the application is incomplete or fails to meet the issuance criteria set forth in this rule; or

(e) the division determines the activities sought in the application may significantly damage or are not in the interest of wildlife, wildlife habitat, serving the public, or public safety.



> Take means to:
> • hunt, pursue, harass, catch, capture, pos-
> sess, angle, seine, trap or *kill* any protected
> wildlife; or
> • attempt any of the above actions.


You may not "take" Abert squirrel - Sciurus aberti, or spotted ground squirrel - Spermophilus spilosoma in San Juan or Grand counties without a certificate of registration. ALL other instances, species, conditions, or exemptions concerning squirrels are included in R657-19-4.


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## wyogoob

Thanks, I read it, twice.

We do this every year and every year someone calls the DWR and they are told it's illegal to hunt pine (Red)squirrels in Utah.


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## Fishrmn

If they call the DWR, they ought to ask which statute, law, or regulation they would be violating if they were to take pine squirrels in Utah. And then they ought to tell the DWR employee who is sitting in an office that they should read the Utah Code, section R657-19-4.

It might be a good idea to print a copy of it, or have a pdf file of it on an iPod, or an iPad or some other device.


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## wyogoob

Fishrmn said:


> If they call the DWR, they ought to ask which statute, law, or regulation they would be violating if they were to take pine squirrels in Utah. And then they ought to tell the DWR employee who is sitting in an office that they should read the Utah Code, section R657-19-4.
> 
> It might be a good idea to print a copy of it, or have a pdf file of it on an iPod, or an iPad or some other device.


That's a great idea!

Lets us know tomorrow how the phone conversation goes.


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## Fishrmn

wyogoob said:


> That's a great idea!
> 
> Lets us know tomorrow how the phone conversation goes.


I was figgerin' you'd do the callin'. Sence you was the one who'd done a bit of squirrel huntin'. I'm pretty certain I'd be able to talk my way out of a ticket if'n I was ta get in a sicheashun where I had ta talk to a C.O..


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## wyogoob

Fishrmn said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a great idea!
> 
> Lets us know tomorrow how the phone conversation goes.
> 
> 
> 
> I was figgerin' you'd do the callin'. Sence you was the one who'd done a bit of squirrel huntin'. I'm pretty certain I'd be able to talk my way out of a ticket if'n I was ta get in a sicheashun where I had ta talk to a C.O..
Click to expand...

he, he, he, he

You call. You have that Utah code memorized by now anyway. I'm just Moderating and trying to stretch the thread out a little more.  just kidding

10¢ says it's illegal. Anybody in? Proceeds go to charity, the UWNMCPF.


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## Fishrmn

wyogoob said:


> 10¢ says it's illegal. Anybody in? Proceeds go to charity, the UWNMCPF.


I'm in for 10¢. Lemme know what you find out. Anybody got the scoop to prove me wrong?


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## hoghunter011583

Fishrmn said:


> If they call the DWR, they ought to ask which statute, law, or regulation they would be violating if they were to take pine squirrels in Utah. And then they ought to tell the DWR employee who is sitting in an office that they should read the Utah Code, section R657-19-4.
> 
> It might be a good idea to print a copy of it, or have a pdf file of it on an iPod, or an iPad or some other device.


You know I started to call back and do that but you never know. If we let them know it is legal then they may change the rules!!


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## hoghunter011583

I'm sure I'll find out if it is legal because I'll be shooting lots this fall up farmington!! I think it states it pretty clear that it is legal, I do have that statute downloaded on my phone in case I get a C.O. that wants to give me a ticket


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## Fishrmn

hoghunter011583 said:


> I'm sure I'll find out if it is legal because I'll be shooting lots this fall up farmington!! I think it states it pretty clear that it is legal, I do have that statute downloaded on my phone in case I get a C.O. that wants to give me a ticket


They're in the same class of non game mammals as coyotes, and jack rabbits. As long as you aren't breaking any other laws, ( such as shooting on, from, or across a road ) you should be good to go.


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## Speedbump

What about uinta ground squirrels?


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## wyogoob

OK hog, are you in for 10¢?


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## Fishrmn

wyogoob said:


> Proceeds go to charity, the UWNMCPF.


Utah
Wildlife
Network
Moderators
Cool
Party
Fund?


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## wyogoob

Fishrmn said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Proceeds go to charity, the UWNMCPF.
> 
> 
> 
> Utah
> Wildlife
> Network
> Moderators
> Cool
> Party
> Fund?
Click to expand...

Utah
Wildlife
Network
Moderators
Christmas
Party
Fund


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## hoghunter011583

wyogoob said:


> OK hog, are you in for 10¢?


sure I'm in!!


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## wyogoob

ok


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## wyogoob

I pretty sure we can gamble on here if the money goes to an UWN-approved charity.


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## hoghunter011583

Can we make a bet on that it that is legal??


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## wyogoob

I'm working on it, waiting for a response from the DWR.


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## wyogoob

hoghunter011583 said:


> Can we make a bet on that it that is legal??


It's the same bet.

I'm betting 10¢ that it's illegal.

You been over to the Waterfowl section?


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## Fishrmn

See, I knew I could get you to make the call. My guess is that the person who answered the phone either misunderstood, or doesn't like the idea of people shooting those cute widdle fluffy tailed, rodents, I mean squirrels. If you ask if there is an open season or if there is a limit on squirrels, the answer is no. There is no closed season, and there is no limit.

It really is there in black and white. I can't see any room for misinterpretation. You can't shoot Albert Squirrels ( Abert squirrel - Sciurus aberti) in San Juan or Grand counties without a COR.



> (b) "Nongame mammal" means:
> 
> (i) any species of bats;
> 
> (ii) any species of mice, rats, or voles of the families Heteromyidae, Cricetidae, or Zapodidae;
> 
> (iii) opossum of the family Didelphidae;
> 
> (iv) pikas of the family Ochotonidae;
> 
> (v) porcupine of the family Erethizontidae;
> 
> (vi) shrews of the family Soricidae; and
> 
> (vii)* squirrels, prairie dogs, and marmots of the family Sciuridae.*
> 
> (1) All nongame mammal species not listed in Section R657-19-4 as requiring a certificate of registration, may be taken:
> 
> (a) without a certificate of registration;
> 
> (b) year-round, 24-hours-a-day; and
> 
> (c) *without bag or possession limits*.


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## wyogoob

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've read it 3 times in 2 days. Thanks

I have an email out. We've already been the phone call route; about 4 times since September 2007.



Can you send a money order?


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## Fishrmn

wyogoob said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've read it 3 times in 2 days. Thanks


And yet you don't believe it.


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## wyogoob

Fishrmn said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've read it 3 times in 2 days. Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> And yet you don't believe it.
Click to expand...

It's not applicable.


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## Fishrmn

wyogoob said:


> It's not applicable.


What? The 657th section of the Utah Code isn't applicable to hunting in Utah? Excuse me?


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## wyogoob

Fishrmn said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not applicable.
> 
> 
> 
> What? The 657th section of the Utah Code isn't applicable to hunting in Utah? Excuse me?
Click to expand...

That's a question you'll have to take up with the DWR.


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## wyogoob

OK, it may be applicable, but another code has been referenced in the past. The way I remember it would trump R657.

Hey if I'm wrong you get 10¢. Calm down.


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## hoghunter011583

Yeah goob I am getting the waterfowl itch!! 
I don't care if it is legal of not, that code is clear as day and I say if you have to be a lawyer to understand which code take presedent over another code, you need to put it in the rule book.
I'm going to blast them little guys and if I get a ticket I'll fight it with the above code and if I lose I'm still not paying that ticket. They can give me a few days in jail, I can't stand all these stupid unclear laws!!!


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## hoghunter011583

wyogoob said:


> Fishrmn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not applicable.
> 
> 
> 
> What? The 657th section of the Utah Code isn't applicable to hunting in Utah? Excuse me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's a question you'll have to take up with the DWR.
Click to expand...

They don't seem to know what the heck they are talking about over there!!lol


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## wyogoob

hoghunter011583 said:


> Yeah goob I am getting the waterfowl itch!!
> I don't care if it is legal of not, that code is clear as day and I say if you have to be a lawyer to understand which code take presedent over another code, you need to put it in the rule book.
> I'm going to blast them little guys and if I get a ticket I'll fight it with the above code and if I lose I'm still not paying that ticket. They can give me a few days in jail, I can't stand all these stupid unclear laws!!!


Yeah, yeah, yeah

Hey, post some squirrel pictures.

Do you need a squirrel recipe?

Should we start a hoghunter011583 incarceration relief fund? I'm good for 20¢.

just kiddin'


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## Amy

After reading through this thread yesterday, I checked with our upland game coordinator and one of our law enforcement sergeants. They both gave me the same answer and cited the same rules.

Per R657-3-7 and R657-3-24 (1.m.xxvii), you cannot kill a red squirrel unless it is in the act of depredating or it's about to depredate (destroying property, harassing campsites, etc.). A person who killed a red squirrel would need to be able to explain to an officer the situation that made them believe the animal was depredating or about to depredate. Hunting red squirrels in their natural habitat is prohibited.

Our guidebook/proclamation committee is meeting on Monday, and I'm planning to mention this discussion. This is an issue that obviously needs to be clarified.


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## BPturkeys

_*R657-3-7. Nuisance Birds, Porcupine, Striped Skunk, and Squirrel.*
(1)...
(b) A person may kill American Crows or Black-billed Magpies by any means, excluding bait, explosives or poison, and only on or over the threatened area.
_
****, I guess that means grenades are out??

Don't ya just love to read through the laws


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## wyogoob

BPturkeys said:


> _*R657-3-7. Nuisance Birds, Porcupine, Striped Skunk, and Squirrel.*
> (1)...
> (b) A person may kill American Crows or Black-billed Magpies by any means, excluding bait, explosives or poison, and only on or over the threatened area.
> _
> ****, I guess that means grenades are out??
> 
> Don't ya just love to read through the laws


I found R657 tough to follow; "refer to this", "refer to that", what I thought was a double negative here and there, and I had to be careful what county they were talking about.

I think it says in there somewhere you *must* dispose of crows in a landfill. We ate them back home. Lyndon Illinois even had an annual crow festival. (It's now in upstate New York).

Well, hats off to Amy and crew for helping on this one. Maybe something could be added to the next Upland Game Guidebook and we wouldn't have to do this every year.


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## hoghunter011583

I think the regs. are just all messed up on this one! I mean if one area says that you can kill squirrels and then another area says that you can't kill squirrels, who the heck is coming up with this stuff!!! Why is one code right and the other code is wrong??
I mean if something is illegal fine I'd never think of breaking a law on purpose. I just can't understand why this is so hard to find out!! I'm really pretty ticked at the fact that we as sportsman can't even find out for sure if we can shoot squirrels, it isn't like this is some rare animal. Squirrels are hunted all over the country and if they cannot be hunted in Utah I'm fine with that but having to nearly hire a lawyer just to find out is just plain stupid. 
What about Porcipines, Raccoons, Rock squirrel, Marmots ??? I mean it says you can kill them in the previously mentioned codes because they are non game mammals, but it says the same thing about Red squirrels! They take the time to say that Albert squirrels are protected but they don't say anything about Red squirrels!!!!!
I never planned on shooting the Red squirrels anyway but I think this is just total incompetence on whoever is writing these codes!!!
Why not just have a simple list of animals that are protected all in ONE PLACE!!!

Ok, I'm done now! Off to go shoot some squirrels, rock squirrels that is. Prolly have another code that protects them and I'll end up with a ticket!!
I would really love to find out which non game animals I can kill!!!


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## shaun larsen

heres how i would look at it. if you feel good about killing squirrels that are in "grey" area as far as the law is concerned, go for it. but i'd use a pretty big rifle so theres not much evidence to find afterwards


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## Fishrmn

They can be shot, killed, hunted, trapped, or taken. If they are a nuisance then they can be trapped, moved, killed or released. The nuisance designation doesn't change the fact that they can be killed. It changes the fact that they can be trapped, transported and released *alive*. This is to mollify the PETA crowd.



> R657-19-3. General Provisions.
> (1) A person may not purchase or sell any nongame mammal or its parts.
> 
> *(2)(a) The live capture of any nongame mammals is prohibited under this rule.*
> 
> *(b) The live capture of nongame mammals species may be allowed as authorized under Rule R657-3.
> *
> (3) *Section 23-20-8 does not apply to the taking of nongame mammal species covered under this rule.*





> (2)(a) *A person may capture, transport, and kill or release a nuisance porcupine, striped skunk, or squirrel* without obtaining a certificate of registration.
> 
> (b) A nuisance porcupine, striped skunk, or squirrel may be released only as follows:
> 
> (i) within 48 hours of capture;
> 
> (ii) within the county in which it was captured; and
> 
> (iii) in a location where it does not pose a risk to human health or safety, or create other conflict with humans, agriculture, or other animals.





> R657-3-9. Release of Zoological Animals to the Wild -- Capture or Disposal of Escaped Wildlife.
> (1)(a) Except as provided in Title 4, Chapter 37, the Aquaculture Act and Subsection R657-3-7(2), *a person may not release to the wild or release into any public or private waters any zoological animal, including fish, without first obtaining authorization from the division.
> *


And it is not considered wanton waste of wildlife to kill them and leave them. R657-19-3 *specically allows you to shoot them and leave them, as most people do with what are normally called pot guts.*



> 23-20-8. Waste of wildlife unlawful.
> It is unlawful to waste or permit to be wasted or spoiled any protected wildlife or any part of them.


Somebody, somewhere spoke the the wrong person. Someone who either doesn't understand the law, or doesn't want people shooting fuzzy widdle squirrels. The nuisance exemption changes the law regarding trapping, transporting, and releasing a squirrel. It does not change the regulation allowing you to kill them. They can be taken without a COR, year round, 24 hours a day, and without bag or possession limits. Gray area my eye. It's all written in the Utah Code.

Sorry Goob, I'm about to go on a rant. :mrgreen:


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## hoghunter011583

I agree it is plain as day and so I can't see what the misconception is!!


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## wyogoob

Seems plain to me too.

I read this: (2)(a) A person may capture, transport, and kill or release a nuisance porcupine, striped skunk, or squirrel without obtaining a certificate of registration. to mean porcupines, striped skunks, and squirrels are *all nuisiance* mammals.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is illegal to kill nuisance squirrels.

I would look at: R657-3-7 and R657-3-24 (1.m.xxvii)


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## hoghunter011583

(1) All nongame mammal species not listed in Section R657-19-4 as requiring a certificate of registration, may be taken:

(a) without a certificate of registration;

(b) year-round, 24-hours-a-day; and

(c) without bag or possession limits.

That is pretty clear!!!


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## wyogoob

I would read: R657-3-7 and R657-3-24 (1.m.xxvii)


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## wyogoob

This seams clear to me:

Re: Hunting squirrels??
by Amy » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:09 am

After reading through this thread yesterday, I checked with our upland game coordinator and one of our law enforcement sergeants. They both gave me the same answer and cited the same rules.

Per R657-3-7 and R657-3-24 (1.m.xxvii), you cannot kill a red squirrel unless it is in the act of depredating or it's about to depredate (destroying property, harassing campsites, etc.). A person who killed a red squirrel would need to be able to explain to an officer the situation that made them believe the animal was depredating or about to depredate. *Hunting red squirrels in their natural habitat is prohibited. *
.........................


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## hoghunter011583

Goob my point is that if one code says that I can shoot a squirrel, I can shoot a squirrel, I don't need to read the whole book of codes!!
If the big game guide book said that it is legal to shoot a doe on the Wasatch front, then later in the book it say you can't shoot does. Would you say that if I shot a Doe on the Wasatch front I would be breaking the law? The book says I can!! I don't care if it later says I can't.
I'm not saying it is legal to kill red squirrels, obviously it is not because of the R657-3-7 and R657-3-24. My point is that they need to get things cleared up and the red squirrel needs to be listed in R657-19-4 along with the Albert Squirrel.
So I'm not saying it is legal I'm saying the books need to be cleared up!!!! I think they should be protected because they are so dumb I think we would wipe them out if we started shooting them. It tempts me to go shoot about 100 of the things and show up and DWR office and say ok now you HAVE to figure this out!!!

I'll give you another contradiction, Chipmunks. In the zoological book it says squirrels, chipmunks, marmots are controlled. 2 lines down it says chipmunks are not controlled!!!! I mean it is insanity.
I'm the first guy for taking up for the division and I usually don't bash them about stuff, I think they do a great job on things and we all make mistakes but this is just to much!!!
This is an easy thing to fix!!!


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## wyogoob

Yeah, hopefully some improvements will be made to the Upland Game Guidebook. 


Hey, all you squirrels, uh..I mean all you guys talking about squirrels made me hungry. So, I'm making squirrel gumbo. Ca c'est bon!


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## hoghunter011583

wyogoob said:


> Yeah, hopefully some improvements will be made to the Upland Game Guidebook.
> 
> Hey, all you squirrels, uh..I mean all you guys talking about squirrels made me hungry. So, I'm making squirrel gumbo. Ca c'est bon!


Hey that sounds good, but wait a minute, where did you get these squirrel :O•-: .
You are not thinking straight, your trying to prove that they are protected and then you are admiting you kill them or did you go on an out of state LE squirrel hunt!!


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## wyogoob

hoghunter011583 said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, hopefully some improvements will be made to the Upland Game Guidebook.
> 
> Hey, all you squirrels, uh..I mean all you guys talking about squirrels made me hungry. So, I'm making squirrel gumbo. Ca c'est bon!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey that sounds good, but wait a minute, where did you get these squirrel :O•-: .
> You are not thinking straight, your trying to prove that they are protected and then you are admiting you kill them or did you go on an out of state LE squirrel hunt!!
Click to expand...

Ah, ha, ha, ha

First off I live in Wyoming. Red quirrels are upland game here and legal to hunt. I get a few now and then, cook 'em with some wild mushrooms. Second, the squirrels I'm cooking now are Fox Squirrels from Illinois.


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## wyogoob

hoghunter011583 said:


> Goob my point is that if one code says that I can shoot a squirrel, I can shoot a squirrel, I don't need to read the whole book of codes!!
> If the big game guide book said that it is legal to shoot a doe on the Wasatch front, then later in the book it say you can't shoot does. Would you say that if I shot a Doe on the Wasatch front I would be breaking the law? The book says I can!! I don't care if it later says I can't. I make a living reading and administrating codes (ASME codes). I find that sometimes you have to read all the disclaimers, waivers, the fine print up front in the code and all the references noted in the section to fully interpret it.
> 
> I'm not saying it is legal to kill red squirrels, obviously it is not because of the R657-3-7 and R657-3-24. My point is that they need to get things cleared up and the red squirrel needs to be listed in R657-19-4 along with the Albert Squirrel. Again, you have to be careful when reading and interpreting codes. It's easy to miss something or misread some verbaige. An example would be: it's Abert's squirrel, not Albert's. And I think the Albert's Squirrel stuff in R657-19-4 pertains to Grand and an Juan counties.
> 
> So I'm not saying it is legal I'm saying the books need to be cleared up!!!! I think they should be protected because they are so dumb I think we would wipe them out if we started shooting them. It tempts me to go shoot about 100 of the things and show up and DWR office and say ok now you HAVE to figure this out!!!
> 
> I'll give you another contradiction, Chipmunks. In the zoological book it says squirrels, chipmunks, marmots are controlled. 2 lines down it says chipmunks are not controlled!!!! I mean it is insanity.
> 
> I'm the first guy for taking up for the division and I usually don't bash them about stuff, I think they do a great job on things and we all make mistakes but this is just to much!!!
> This is an easy thing to fix!!!


I hopeful things will get cleared up and we can go shoot some Pine Squirrels together.


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## wyogoob

Years back I remember asking someone why it was illegal to hunt red squirrels in Utah. They told me that one of the reasons was they look too much like flying squirrels. I've heard that more than once but can't verify if it's true or not. I've also heard that Walt Disney did flying squirrel nature films around Christmas Meadows on the North Slope of the Uintas back in the day.


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## Fishrmn

Not bad. It only took two years for someone to find the sub paragraph that says red squirrels are controlled. There are still statutes on the books that allow you to take members of the Sciuridae family without restriction. So which one is the correct one? They are both laws. The exception to trap, transport, kill, or release nuisance squirrels is well referenced throughout the code. There are many citations of the regulations that are altered to allow you to trap them alive, (which is otherwise illegal) transport them, (which is otherwise illegal) and release them alive, (which is otherwise illegal).

I'd pay to see you take 100 of them to the DWR and get the whole thing cleared up. I'm just wondering why someone would cook up a rodent, and how can you eat something that looks like a rat?


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## hoghunter011583

Fishrmn said:


> Not bad. It only took two years for someone to find the sub paragraph that says red squirrels are controlled. There are still statutes on the books that allow you to take members of the Sciuridae family without restriction. So which one is the correct one? They are both laws. The exception to trap, transport, kill, or release nuisance squirrels is well referenced throughout the code. There are many citations of the regulations that are altered to allow you to trap them alive, (which is otherwise illegal) transport them, (which is otherwise illegal) and release them alive, (which is otherwise illegal).
> 
> I'd pay to see you take 100 of them to the DWR and get the whole thing cleared up. I'm just wondering why someone would cook up a rodent, and how can you eat something that looks like a rat?


Why we cook treerats is because they are AWESOME!!! put beef broth, veggies and seasoning in a slow cooker. Wrap 3-5 squirrels in cheese cloth and put those in there. Cover with water and cook for 9 hours, take the cheese cloth and squirrels out. Now the meat will fall off the bone so de-bone them. Throw the meat back in to cook another hour and taste and reseason to get it just right. After an hour drain off the juice and bring it to a boil and ad a can of gravy mix to make more gravy. Put it all back in the pot and eat over rice or just alone. 
Trust me you won't care about eating cottontails again!!!!


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## Amy

hoghunter011583 said:


> Fishrmn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not bad. It only took two years for someone to find the sub paragraph that says red squirrels are controlled. There are still statutes on the books that allow you to take members of the Sciuridae family without restriction. So which one is the correct one? They are both laws. The exception to trap, transport, kill, or release nuisance squirrels is well referenced throughout the code. There are many citations of the regulations that are altered to allow you to trap them alive, (which is otherwise illegal) transport them, (which is otherwise illegal) and release them alive, (which is otherwise illegal).
> 
> I'd pay to see you take 100 of them to the DWR and get the whole thing cleared up. I'm just wondering why someone would cook up a rodent, and how can you eat something that looks like a rat?
> 
> 
> 
> Why we cook treerats is because they are AWESOME!!! put beef broth, veggies and seasoning in a slow cooker. Wrap 3-5 squirrels in cheese cloth and put those in there. Cover with water and cook for 9 hours, take the cheese cloth and squirrels out. Now the meat will fall off the bone so de-bone them. Throw the meat back in to cook another hour and taste and reseason to get it just right. After an hour drain off the juice and bring it to a boil and ad a can of gravy mix to make more gravy. Put it all back in the pot and eat over rice or just alone.
> Trust me you won't care about eating cottontails again!!!!
Click to expand...

Now that I know how to cook them, I suppose it's time for me to eat squirrel.  I followed up with a couple of additional people when I got into the office this morning, including our Assistant Attorney General and Wildlife Chief, and they both confirmed that R657-19 trumps R657-3. I guess R657-19 was put in place to give the public flexibility in dealing with certain types of animals, usually on their own property. I apologize for posting an incorrect answer on Saturday.

So, as Fshrmn pointed out (and per R657-19), you may take squirrels - except for Abert squirrels and spotted ground squirrels in Grand and San Juan counties - without a certificate of registration; year-round, 24-hours-a-day; and without bag or possession limits.

Our guidebook committee will discuss how to best make this information available to the public (and clarify the rules), possibly in next year's Upland Game guidebook. I also spoke with a couple of our front desk personnel about it. I hope this helps, Fshrmn and hoghunter011583. (Just please don't bring me 100 squirrel carcasses.)


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## Fishrmn

Has anyone noticed the heading on the section that is being quoted as saying it is illegal to hunt squirrels?


> R657-3 - *Collection*, Importation, Transportation, and *Possession* of Animals


 And it lists animals such as horses, alpacas, cats, chinchillas, gerbils, and yaks. It talks about embryos, eggs, and sperm.

And then the heading on the portion of the code that allows the hunting?


> R657-19 - *Taking* Nongame Mammals


Two laws. Two different concepts. One refers to collecting and possessing. The entire section R657-3 is about collecting, keeping, transporting, housing, raising, or releasing animals. R657-19 is about taking, hunting, or killing animals.

Thanks Amy for taking the time to sort all of this out. I've spent far too much time on this already. I was reading the Utah Code while you were posting your comments, so I didn't see them before I pointed out the differences between the two concepts. I don't have any plans to go squirrel hunting any time soon. But it is nice to know that if I decide to eliminate a few "tree rats" that I won't be afoul of the law.


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## wyogoob

Woo Hoo!!!

You guys want cash or a money order?


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## wyogoob

I eat some crow, but R657 says I have to put them in a landfill.

Thanks Amy, Fshrmn, and the hoghunter007.


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## hoghunter011583

Amy said:


> hoghunter011583 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fishrmn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not bad. It only took two years for someone to find the sub paragraph that says red squirrels are controlled. There are still statutes on the books that allow you to take members of the Sciuridae family without restriction. So which one is the correct one? They are both laws. The exception to trap, transport, kill, or release nuisance squirrels is well referenced throughout the code. There are many citations of the regulations that are altered to allow you to trap them alive, (which is otherwise illegal) transport them, (which is otherwise illegal) and release them alive, (which is otherwise illegal).
> 
> I'd pay to see you take 100 of them to the DWR and get the whole thing cleared up. I'm just wondering why someone would cook up a rodent, and how can you eat something that looks like a rat?
> 
> 
> 
> Why we cook treerats is because they are AWESOME!!! put beef broth, veggies and seasoning in a slow cooker. Wrap 3-5 squirrels in cheese cloth and put those in there. Cover with water and cook for 9 hours, take the cheese cloth and squirrels out. Now the meat will fall off the bone so de-bone them. Throw the meat back in to cook another hour and taste and reseason to get it just right. After an hour drain off the juice and bring it to a boil and ad a can of gravy mix to make more gravy. Put it all back in the pot and eat over rice or just alone.
> Trust me you won't care about eating cottontails again!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Now that I know how to cook them, I suppose it's time for me to eat squirrel.  I followed up with a couple of additional people when I got into the office this morning, including our Assistant Attorney General and Wildlife Chief, and they both confirmed that R657-19 trumps R657-3. I guess R657-19 was put in place to give the public flexibility in dealing with certain types of animals, usually on their own property. I apologize for posting an incorrect answer on Saturday.
> 
> So, as Fshrmn pointed out (and per R657-19), you may take squirrels - except for Abert squirrels and spotted ground squirrels in Grand and San Juan counties - without a certificate of registration; year-round, 24-hours-a-day; and without bag or possession limits.
> 
> Our guidebook committee will discuss how to best make this information available to the public (and clarify the rules), possibly in next year's Upland Game guidebook. I also spoke with a couple of our front desk personnel about it. I hope this helps, Fshrmn and hoghunter011583. (Just please don't bring me 100 squirrel carcasses.)
Click to expand...

Amy thanks so much!!! See, this is why I take up for the division a lot of times!! Even though I think the regs. need to be cleared up, atleast we got to the bottom of it once and for all!!!
Thanks Amy, I won't bring a bunch of squirrels to you but if you ever want to try 2 or 3 in a stew just let me know!!


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## hoghunter011583

Goob, I'm not worried about the landfill part, I have a compost pile in my yard that I'm sure would qualify as a landfill. It is 6 feet tall, has 2 hornet nests in it and lots of good stuff!!! Just ship them squirrels to my house!!
Ok, time to get some tree rat stew!! Now I can shoot them and stop stuffing them in my coat!!


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## Fishrmn

wyogoob said:


> I eat some crow, but R657 says I have to put them in a landfill.
> 
> Thanks Amy, Fshrmn, and the hoghunter007.


 :mrgreen:



> You guys want cash or a money order?


In God we trust. All others pay cash. J/K.

I'll bet there's a run on rimfire ammo in Evingston. And you'll never see another squirrel between Park City and Evanston. :shock: :lol: :lol: _(O)_


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## wyogoob

I can see it now. Fshrmn, the Hog, and I in business together, marketing squirrel calls, squirrel scent, special squirrel camo, squirrel decoys, squirrel hunting videos, and squirrel cookbooks.

Hey, does this mean everyone can post up their Utah pine squirrel photos............just kiddin'.


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## BPturkeys

OK great, but I still want to know about gernades, why can't I, an honest, uptanding American citizen use grenades to take squirrels...did Obama have anything to do with this??...**** liberals anyway!


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## hoghunter011583

wyogoob said:


> I can see it now. Fshrmn, the Hog, and I in business together, marketing squirrel calls, squirrel scent, special squirrel camo, squirrel decoys, squirrel hunting videos, and squirrel cookbooks.
> 
> Hey, does this mean everyone can post up their Utah pine squirrel photos............just kiddin'.


Hey you might be kidding but I was just thinking the same thing!! I have to varnish a bow rack and then I'm going on a pine squirrel hunt. You think a .22 Mag. will bust them up to much? I think if I use FMJ's and shoot for the vitals I'll be ok! I will post up some pics!!


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## Fishrmn

You'd be a natural Goob.

Hide in the forest and make a sound like a nut.

:lol: :lol: :lol: 

If you're having trouble sounding like a nut, I can either teach you, show you, or drive you.


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## wyogoob

BPturkeys said:


> OK great, but I still want to know about gernades, why can't I, an honest, uptanding American citizen use grenades to take squirrels...did Obama have anything to do with this??...**** liberals anyway!


Have Fshrmn check to see if grenades are OK. I'm going mushroom hunting on the North Slope, with a .22.


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## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> I can see it now. Fshrmn, the Hog, and I in business together, marketing squirrel calls, squirrel scent, special squirrel camo, squirrel decoys, squirrel hunting videos, and squirrel cookbooks.
> 
> Hey, does this mean everyone can post up their *old *Utah pine squirrel photos............just kiddin'.


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## gobbly

it's obvious that R657-19 allows for the taking of many non-game animals without a CoR, including squirrels. There is an exception for San Juan and Grand counties in regard to squirrels, but in all other areas, or squirrels not exempted in those two counties, it's fair game 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

It's obvious that the CoR statute does not take precedence, since R657-19 specifically exempts those animals from the CoR requirement.

Earlier this year I sent an email to DWR about unprotected species:

"...
Other animals that may be hunted in the state of Utah year round without a license are as follows;
Raccoon, Striped Skunk, Red Fox, Jack Rabbit, Eurasian Collared Dove, and all squirrel except the Albert's Squirrel.
Thanks

Thank you for contacting us!
Our fisheries biologists say that this year is supposed to be one of the BEST years for angling in quite some time. So stop in at any license agent or go online at www.wildlife.utah.gov and get yourself one of the new 365 day fishing licenses!
State of Utah Department of Natural Resources
Wildlife Division
1594 W North Temple
Salt Lake City, UT 84116
801.538.4700
[email protected]"


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## Narient

Living in Kansas, I had Mulberry trees in the back yard & Walnut trees in the front so I had squirrels year round. At any given time, I could use my squirrel call to locate a couple and have some excellent squirrel stew for dinner.


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