# plateau pronghorn



## alaska rookie (Sep 17, 2008)

Just recieved a letter today from dwr on my muzzleloader antelope tag saying their summer survey showed fewer antelope than in recent years reminding me that I could turn it in to save my pts. (as long as I can have it there by tomorrow -- I live out of state.) alot of good that does me now. They anticipate lower success. I saw a post the other day of someone who had the rifle tag complaining of that fact. Was wondering if anyone had been up on top of the plateau and what there take is. Will be heading up wend. night or thursday. My wife had the rifle tag 5 years ago and there were lots of them. She got hers the first 30 min. 14+ put the prongs were badly worn. Thanks.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Alaska -- call the Southern Region Office and talk to Teresa. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be willing to work with you on the returned tag and bonus point issue.

Spring counts showed extremely low fawn production, which spells trouble for future generations if hunts continue. Personally, I think it's great to see the DWR being proactive with this unit and the antelope herd.


while archery deer/elk hunting early this year on the Parker we noticed that the antelope were not in the same areas they typically were. But, we still saw antelope and groups of antelope. I imagine that this hunt has been more difficult than in the past. If you are willing the "hunt", then I think you could still be successful. Deciding whether or not to turn in your tag certainly won't be an easy thing to do -- but it might be the smart thing.


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## alaska rookie (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks PBH. Think I will give them a call in the morning. I still have a deer tag and If they'll work with me somehow I'd rather go another year.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Southern Region Office: 435-865-6100
Teresa Bonzo: 435-865-6121


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## fussy (Sep 26, 2010)

I haven't heard very good things at all from anyone that has had a tag for the plateau. Save your points man.


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

They have completely canceled the Doe hunt and are issuing refunds! The DWR has ruined yet another good herd of animals!

The same is happening with the Fishlake Elk herd again......this year I have seen fewer cows than in the last 4 or 5. They just dont get it!!!!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

FishlakeElkHunter said:


> They have completely canceled the Doe hunt and are issuing refunds! The DWR has ruined yet another good herd of animals!


I don't get this comment. The doe hunt was canceled as a proactive measure to keep from ruining the herd. The hunt was canceled. Isn't this a good thing? Isn't this what we want the DWR to do when herds are struggling?

Kudos to the DWR for canceling the hunt!


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

What I am saying is that they can not manage properly....they go to extremes!!!!! They KILL EVERYTHING then have to cancel hunts....it is stupid!

For three years now they issue TONS of 2 Doe permits...issue WAY more Buck Permits than they should...then they ONLY close the doe hunt because of the screaming of a few concerned hunters and sportsman that see what they have done to the herd. They saw this coming and they should not have issued the doe permits in the first place!!!!!!

Kudos to the DWR?!?!?!?! Whatever!!


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## alaska rookie (Sep 17, 2008)

Talked to Teresa this morning @dwr and she said they did cancel the doe hunt and fawn production was like 20/100 vs the usual 70/100. Said overall numbers were down significantly. She made a call to Salt Lake for me and called right back and told me as long as I got my tag in the mail and post marked today I'll get to keep my pts. for another year. Nice lady, tags in the mail.


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## Racklover (Apr 18, 2010)

I got the same letter and sent mine back as well. I wish they had never offered the tag as I would have put in for another unit possibly saving me the money. Oh well, pay to play as they say in Chicago (I mean Washington D.C.)


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

This is EXACTLY what they need to do with the central region buck deer as well....but they won't...cuz there are WAY too many dollars involved....so they'd rather cut the length of the season, but issue the same number of tags. IDIOTS!!!!! I am glad to hear that they cancelled the plateau hunt. That shows that someone has started to get their head pulled from their rectum.


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## Boulderhunter (Nov 19, 2007)

alaska rookie said:


> Just recieved a letter today from dwr on my muzzleloader antelope tag saying their summer survey showed fewer antelope than in recent years reminding me that I could turn it in to save my pts. (as long as I can have it there by tomorrow -- I live out of state.) alot of good that does me now. They anticipate lower success. I saw a post the other day of someone who had the rifle tag complaining of that fact. Was wondering if anyone had been up on top of the plateau and what there take is. Will be heading up wend. night or thursday. My wife had the rifle tag 5 years ago and there were lots of them. She got hers the first 30 min. 14+ put the prongs were badly worn. Thanks.


alaska rookie,
I just returned from the Rifle Antelope hunt on the Plateau and I was very disappointed to see the overall number of Antelope so low. While I was there I heard some very disappointing news from other hunters, while I'm not taking everything I heard for fact it was never the less discouraging to hear. 1st, they removed up to 450 Antelope (to either transplant or relocate out of state) 2nd, they had an early (pre-archery; rifle hunt....huh) and 3rd, a fairly good winter kill due to the hard winter they had this past year. 
While I was there the Antelope were very flighty and you really had to work to even get close enough to get a shot, the overall numbers were way down from what I've seen before. Turning in your tag was the right move; I wish I'd had the same opportunity, better luck next year.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

FishlakeElkHunter said:


> They have completely canceled the Doe hunt and are issuing refunds! The DWR has ruined yet another good herd of animals!
> 
> The same is happening with the Fishlake Elk herd again......this year I have seen fewer cows than in the last 4 or 5. They just dont get it!!!!


FishlakeElkHunter,

Do you think that the DWR will cancel the 1200 cow tags issued on the Fish Lake Unit for this Year?

My bet is that there is too much denero involved to call all of those permits back.....Big


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

Bigbr......

I do not think that they will cancel the cow hunt. I wish that they WOULD!!!!! I promise you that next year...you will be lucky to find any bull over 320 on the Fishlake...and the cows will be gone again...just like what happened 10 years ago. It is scary bad up there! When they fly it again this winter after another cow hunt......they will not issue ANY cow tags next year......STUPID!!!!!!!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

FishlakeElkHunter said:


> Byou will be lucky to find any bull over 320 on the Fishlake...and the cows will be gone again...just like what happened 10 years ago. It is scary bad up there! When they fly it again this winter after another cow hunt......they will not issue ANY cow tags next year......STUPID!!!!!!!


This is such "sky is falling" bs! last winter they flew the unit and counted over 4100 elk. The current proposal has the Fish Lake unit as having 5200 elk or an increase of 400 elk from 4800. Currently, from last winters flights, the population estimate for Fish Lake is 5700 elk....if you kill all 1200 cows that tags will be issued for, you will probably still be above 4800 elk--the current objective--and close to the 5200 elk--proposed objective--after calves are born.

The fear that too many elk are going to be killed is "sky is falling" fear...nothing more. These cow hunts are good meat hunts that allow for hunting opportunity!

Last year the herd was estimated at 5700 and they issued 1600 tags...this year the herd is estimated at 5200 and they will issue 1200 tags. So, after issuing 1600 cow tags the herd only drop an estimated 500 animals. Seems about right to me!


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

I REALLY want to get into this with you....but you are a FREAKING idiot!!! You are such a DWR boy and everything they do is GREAT that no one can convince you otherwise!!

I just spent the last 15 days hiking 6-8 miles a day on the Fishlake....how many days have you spent up there?? I have talked to a TON of locals that are spending time up there and LOTS of tags went unfilled this year on the RIFLE hunt.....yea...the one that has had 90% success rate previous....BECAUSE THERE ARE FEWER ELK!!!!!! I saw maybe 30 cows in all those days of hunting. There is a REAL problem up there......so you can take your "sky is falling" crap and shove it!!!!!!!
We will see when they fly it this winter and find HALF the elk that they "supposedly" saw last year!!!!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Anecdotal, my-hunt-is-too-hard BS! I spend more than 15 days up on Fish Lake EVERY year. But, I am NOT stupid enough to rely on only my personal experience and I trust what a professional sees in an airplane far more than what I see on the ground...So, buddy, take your "sky-is-falling" propaganda BS and shove it yourself!


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

See what I mean...You are shoved so far up the DWR asses that you ca not see the "elk" through the trees! I never complained that our hunt was "too hard".....It is elk hunting...and we enjoy the "hard" parts of of the hunt. That is not my point!! I spend WAY more than 15 days a year at Fishlake "every year" as you say....I am just saying I have spent the last two weeks up there on a hunt....and there are VERY few elk on the unit. This is just not from ME! I talk to all our neighbors at our cabin that LIVE up there year round some of them...the manager of the lodge that lives there YEAR ROUND...and everyone says there are fewer elk this year. 
The 3 CWMU's are also seeing fewer elk. I have personal friends that guide on all 3 of those cwmu's and they all have commented that even for the private property they are seeing smaller bulls and fewer cows than in the last 5 years. 
Your so called "professionals" in their airplanes are more concerned about REVENUE for the state than any elk herd health!!! So do I trust one or two little flyovers.....or guys that LIVE on the mountain...herd Cows up there EVERY DAY...cabin owners that spend weeks and week out looking at the elk....guys that REALLY are concerned about the health and size of the elk herd....I will take those guys EVERYDAY over your "professionals"!!!!
All you do is come on here and cause trouble and kiss the DWR on the mouth.....it really is sad!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Yeah...all they care about is revenue...BS! Do you actually think that any single one of those DWR employees get any extra money for selling extra tags?

This is the same old BS I heard in 2009...too many tags, too many tags. What a friggin' joke! OF course they are seeing fewer elk, the number of elk in 2008, 2009, and 2010 has been lowered because the unit is ABOVE objective. You SHOULD be seeing fewer elk...that is why we are giving out these cow tags, to lower the population, duh!

In 2009, they counted--not estimated--they actually counted 4,500 animals. Based on a 80% sightability index they estimated the herd at 5,700. You know as well as I do that they do not see every animal...they account for those unseen animals in their models. However, they COUNTED 4,100 cows. Until you go out and actually start counting animals...like the professionals do. Your opinions are unfounded. My opinions are based upon the best available scientific evidence.

1600 tags at the best available estimate of 58% harvest DID NOT "slaughter" the cow elk on Fish Lake IN 2009, and 1200 cow elk tags in 2010 won't "slaughter" them either! The sky ain't falling and all this BS about it being the end of the elk on Fish Lake is nonsense!

Also, FWIW, state law MANDATES the DWR to issue cow tags to reduce the herd numbers when the herd exceeds the population objective. This unit is doing that now!

The funny thing is that you don't think the "professionals" don't care about the herd and are NOT hunters...LMAO!


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

I am not going to sit and watch you puke your DWR crap. 

I guess when a 320 bull is the best bull on the mountain....you will finally be happy! It will be there soon....so congrats!!!


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Wy2Ut,

With all due respect, I think you are one of the most informed guys on this forum and you offer a unique statistical perspective that I have always found to be very accurate. I am not trying to cause an argument with you, but I know Jim Lamb, who is the area biologist and his take on the numbers game is that the elk population estimates and counts of elk on the Fish Lake are cooperative agency observations and may or may not include aerial observations depending on air hours available to the division. Not disputing your argument just offering some input. At best I would conclude that all wildlife posted numbers are at their best just estimates.

I also know Gary who is the lodge manager and county sheriff and he is a stand up guy also. It has been my observation that elk numbers are significantly down from the past three to five years. Take an evening strole up on Tidwell, Hogan’s or the upper UM creek, even 1K lakes and you start to get the true picture elk numbers are down. Do not believe that I can give you a number, but it is noticeable decline.
With all due respect….Big


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

fishlakeelkhunter -- you commented on bull size (320). First, a 320 bull is a big bull. I think Utah hunters are spoiled, especially when they complain about a 320 bull being small. Our expectations have certainly increased. I think that just goes with the times. We all want everything, right now.

Just curious -- speaking of a 320 bull being the best on the mountain -- how does a cow hunt affect bull antler size (aside from reducing overall herd numbers). Are you suggesting that there is better chance of having a big bull if the herd size is over objective? ( I guess that makes sense -- the more there are, the better chance of getting a big one).


I think we can look at the pronghorn hunts on Boulder and see that the DWR actually does care about these herds. I trust that if the elk on Fish Lake are truly suffering, then the DWR will cancel hunts, or reduce future tags. I DON'T think that biologists are driven by State revenue, or by political issues. Remember, these are biologists. They got into this job because of a love for the wildlife -- certainly not because of the pay!


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Wow! One thing Fishlakeelkhunter did you get a tag? or someone your helping? If the numbers are so bad why take part in making them worse? Or are you one of those that think its everyone elses problem and only you and yours should be able to receive tags? 
If you think there is a shortage of elk don't put in for the unit. I'm with W2U on this one the DWR knows what they're doing. I used to be in the same boat with the Manti but they have age objectives on the units to help provide more oppirtunities for hunters. I know Manti is one with a low age base while a unit like the Pavhant is higher. If you want a bigger bull you might just have to put in for a different unit.


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## TAY (Feb 13, 2008)

This is a joke Fishlakeelkhunter spent time on Fishlake hunting elk last weekend but his opinion is wrong. If you look at his track record for the last 5 years on Fishlake it isn't hard to tell he knows the area and where to find elk on Fishlake. I to was one of the unlucky hunters that thought I was so lucky when I finally drew my LE tag on Fishlake. I spent Sept. 16-26 on the mountain and the numbers of elk that I saw was very sad. I have never had a hard time filling a elk tag on this unit and there will be many let down hunters this year with Fishlake. Sure they can recall the mistake of late tag cow hunts but what about the cow tags that have already been filled. Any archer could kill a cow, anyone hunting deer with a muzzleloader can kill a cow right now with their late tag. Any frustrated LE hunter with a cow tag could have killed a cow. The counts a so far off it's sad, but most people can't tell that from a keyboard. Keep thinking all is well your unit will be next. Call the tags back on Pronghorn is a cover. They will do the same next year, just like they did with a great elk herd on Fishlake again this year. Guess I will go hunt pheasants because there are so many of them left in Utah.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Man I guess you are not going to like this report then. 
http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/news/42-ut ... -utah.html



> Aoude says some of the largest elk herds are found on the Central Mountains (Manti) and Wasatch Mountains units in central Utah; the South Slope, Yellowstone unit in northeastern Utah; and the Plateau, *Fish Lake*/Thousand Lakes unit in south-central Utah.


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

I am not going to sit and argue the point anymore. If you think that an article from Anis Aoude is going to change my mind you are CRAZY!!!!!! I have sat in RAC meetings and watched that guy and his NON reaction to Sportsman concerns that his opinion means nothing to me anymore!

I know what I and MANY others have watched happen on the Fishlake Unit over the last 15 years!!!! I have watched this cycle many times and I know what is happening. The elk get really healthy..the herds are great, the hunts get REALLY fun....then they come and kill 3-4000 cows over a couple of years time....and the hunting gets real CRAPPY for about the next 3-4 years. Mark my words....we are in that cycle again right NOW!!!!!

@mikevanwilder.....No, this was not my tag, but I help family and friends every year on the Fishlake and spend lots of time there as we own a cabin up there. I spend most of my summer up there and also quite a bit of time in the winter. 

@tay......I hope you guys found you a good bull. 

And to whoever was mouthing about a 320 bull being a great bull.....that is true...but I think that when it takes you 13-15 years to draw a tag, you should be hunting more than just a 320 bull. Now I know that they are trying to do that with some units....and I support that...I support the fact of more opportunity....but it is not there, and it is no where close!!!! It still takes about 13 points to draw the lesser units. And if they keep killing off all the cows...there will not be more elk, to issue more tags, to increase opportunity. 
I think the crap of TOO MANY ELK.....is all CRAP!!!! I have seen when the Fishlake had TONS of elk...and everything was just fine.....then they issue all the cow tags...and things go down hill again!!

Wyo2UT and his buddies can talk all they want about how smart and how great the DWR is...and how their counts are gospel....but I do not buy it.
I am sorry I went a bit haywire on previous posts, but I see the same thing happening that has happened in the past so I know what road we are heading down. So when people say "the DWR knows what they are doing"...I want to puke!!!
I am going to try and keep my thoughts to myself from now on....Sorry for the temper!


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## boneboy (Oct 3, 2010)

One thing to remember is that this has been one of the craziest years for weather that I can remember. The cowboys say the same. One told me that he hasn't seen a winter/spring/summer like this in 60 years. I had an archey bull tag on the boulder unit. I know this unit VERY well. This years hunt was the hardest hunt I've ever been involved in there. The elk weren't in any of the normal places. I just got lucky on my last day. That may be in part why you're not seeing the animals. Now I don't agree with some of the things the division has done and are doing but with the two doe tags and transplanting last year how were they supposed to foresee such a MAJOR winter kill. They are human. I had sagegrouse tags. I saw one doe, and she was gone in a hurry, in the time I was down there. It's going to take years to recover one of the states best antelope units. Just like the Fishlake unit had to. The division would also do well to listen more to the public. Sometimes it would do well for the public to listen to the division.


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