# Celebs drawing tags



## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

I just learned today that Remi Warren drew one of the expo tags. Don't get me wrong. The dude is a stud and has put in the work to be as successful as he has been hunting (and commercially). Yet, it seems somewhat suspect that a celeb would draw one of these tags. Granted, his is an archery pronghorn tag, not a sheep tag, so his odds are "somewhat" better. But still. 

I'm a big fan of Randy Newberg and Meateater content, but I do have to wonder about some of those hard-to-draw tags they generally seem to draw.

Do they draw these like the rest of us (preference and bonus) or is there something else afoot? If you say something fishy is going on, I'd love to hear about any evidence you might have to back this up.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There is always a conspiracy about the Expo draw every year, this one sounds no different than any of the others.

From what I understand it is just a simple draw. One person one ticket. It is no worse than those who draw a OIL tag in the DWR draw with zero points.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

It’s hard to have evidence when these draws aren’t conducted in a way where the public can oversee what’s going on. I find it odd that the general public far out numbers the celebrity count at the expo every year, so in theory the public has much better odds, yet these celebrities, most of them local, always seem to pull a few tags every year. It’s suspicious, but hard to have any kind of evidence of


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Draw results should be 100% reproducible if the programs "random seed" is saved off on the original run. Using that known random number with the draw algorithm and data set, the results should be the same each and every time. Public oversight could be 100%.

That said, one way to "game the system" is to run the entire draw repeatedly over and over until you get a result where X, Y and Z people all draw. Then thats the one you submit for the yearly draw results.

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The suspicion around the expo draw will remain until there is transparency. I don’t know why that is so hard to understand. These are 100% public resources with zero public oversight. That is a problem no matter what we are talking about.

Not to beat a dead horse, but RMEF proposal had the same people in Fallon, NV running the expo draw that do the main Utah draw process. Remember, the expo draw is currently conducted by a dude in his basement. And to my knowledge, nobody inspects his data, algorithms, or codes. If SFW switched over to the Fallon group it would alleviate a lot of suspicion, IMO.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> The suspicion around the expo draw will remain until there is transparency. I don’t know why that is so hard to understand. These are 100% public resources with zero public oversight. That is a problem no matter what we are talking about.
> 
> Not to beat a dead horse, but RMEF proposal had the same people in Fallon, NV running the expo draw that do the main Utah draw process. Remember, the expo draw is currently conducted by a dude in his basement. And to my knowledge, nobody inspects his data, algorithms, or codes. If SFW switched over to the Fallon group it would alleviate a lot of suspicion, IMO.


Yeah but if they used Fallon, that’s a lot less money they’d have left for “habitat” and “conservation” work 😉


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I agree that the draw needs to be transparent, but I'm not wasting too much time worrying about a celeb drawing an archery speed goat tag in UT. Not really a high profile tag when all said and done.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MWScott72 said:


> I agree that the draw needs to be transparent, but I'm not wasting too much time worrying about a celeb drawing an archery speed goat tag in UT. Not really a high profile tag when all said and done.


Would you call a Dutton elk tag a high profile tag?


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

MooseMeat said:


> Would you call a Dutton elk tag a high profile tag?


And it’s the late tag. Wasn’t that the one the guides wanted to limit because the biggest bulls where getting killed by peasants? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Swing and a miss for me at the expo and the sheep camp drawing . . . it's sure fun to dream about the potential to draw a certain tag!


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## t_boneking (May 22, 2014)

I am pretty sure I am not a celebrity, but I am more than happy with the Kaiparowits East desert sheep tag I drew at the expo!


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> The suspicion around the expo draw will remain until there is transparency. I don’t know why that is so hard to understand. These are 100% public resources with zero public oversight. That is a problem no matter what we are talking about.
> 
> Not to beat a dead horse, but RMEF proposal had the same people in Fallon, NV running the expo draw that do the main Utah draw process. Remember, the expo draw is currently conducted by a dude in his basement. And to my knowledge, nobody inspects his data, algorithms, or codes. If SFW switched over to the Fallon group it would alleviate a lot of suspicion, IMO.


What's your point about RMEF. They lost that bid and struggle to demonstrate ability to fund raise in Utah. 2020 RMEF Chapter Awards - Salt Lake Chapter #11 - Net $116,932. It was #12 behind Kalispell. Salt Lake County 1.2M residents, Kalispell perhaps 30K residents. Why would Utah ever consider RMEF with this dismal fund raising performance? 

2022 RMEF Mountain Festival in Park City is opportunity for RMEF National and RMEF local to demonstrate if they are able to generate significant funds. Below are the 2022 DWR Conservation Tags committed to RMEF. Will, can these tags be committed to the Mountain Festival or will Utah RMEF offer at state banquets?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I believe that if you are going to look at the fund raising of the RMEF you need to combine all the events that they run and not just one. 

I have seen small town banquets out raise large towns quite often. A lot of members of the RMEF will go to the smaller areas in hopes of having a better chance of winning a auction or raffle.

A lot will also have to do if the smaller areas are more into hunting than the larger areas.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

OriginalOscar said:


> What's your point about RMEF. They lost that bid and struggle to demonstrate ability to fund raise in Utah


Thats crap-o-la. RMEF was the ONLY organization to apply the proper paperwork by the end of the application period. SFW didnt even submit their paperwork assuming they would just get awarded the new contract. The DWR then ignored their own application requirement, allowed the SFW to submit their paperwork after the date, and then compete with RMEF for the contract, which was later given to them.

Bottom line, RMEF should have won the contract with no contest, as the SFW had not submitted their paperwork by the required date.

-DallanC


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## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

Buy a ticket stick it in the basket and have the girls hand pick the winners. Fair draw. Do it old school and have everyone there to witness the draw.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

MooseMeat said:


> Would you call a Dutton elk tag a high profile tag?


I would call it a fair bit higher profile than a speed goat tag.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

3arabians said:


> And it’s the late tag. Wasn’t that the one the guides wanted to limit because the biggest bulls where getting killed by peasants?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It was one of the tags they mentioned


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

DreadedBowHunter said:


> Buy a ticket stick it in the basket and have the girls hand pick the winners. Fair draw. Do it old school and have everyone there to witness the draw.


It's 2022, shouldn't we allow a boy to draw raffle ticket winners by now?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

johnnycake said:


> It's 2022, shouldn't we allow a boy to draw raffle ticket winners by now?


Technically by physical definitions, it is a boy, they just identify as a girl.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

t_boneking said:


> I am pretty sure I am not a celebrity, but I am more than happy with the Kaiparowits East desert sheep tag I drew at the expo!


My brother in law drew that tag a few years back. Ate tag soup. 
That is a VERY tough hunt. One of the toughest there is.
Him and his boys (boys in their late 20’s and early 30’s) worked their butts off. 
They did run into one guy that did get one.
Good Luck for sure !! 

He offered to “let” me tag along and help......He wasn’t tricking me. 
Had a serious ankle problem at the time, no way I could’ve kept up.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Only thing worse than waiting for one of these tags is having one in your pocket. “ I mean all OIL and LE in general” a lot of pressure to succeed


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## Deacon92 (Jun 6, 2017)

Lest we forget in 2019 a celeb drew a desert sheep hunt. 1 in 8,000+ odds.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Deacon92 said:


> Lest we forget in 2019 a celeb drew a desert sheep hunt. 1 in 8,000+ odds.


Who was that? Just curious.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MWScott72 said:


> Who was that? Just curious.


Chad mendes or however you spell it


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

DallanC said:


> Thats crap-o-la. RMEF was the ONLY organization to apply the proper paperwork by the end of the application period. SFW didnt even submit their paperwork assuming they would just get awarded the new contract. The DWR then ignored their own application requirement, allowed the SFW to submit their paperwork after the date, and then compete with RMEF for the contract, which was later given to them.
> 
> Bottom line, RMEF should have won the contract with no contest, as the SFW had not submitted their paperwork by the required date.
> 
> -DallanC


Government can not and will not award contracts to unqualified parties. 

If RMEF wants to be qualified contender for future, Mountain Festival in Park City this summer is that opportunity. RMEF has state tags they can either use to promote attendance, visitor spending, and maximum conservation funds; or keep doing the same thing. 

Maybe 50/50 split. Give half the tags to RMEF National for Mountain Festival and half for a state convention in rural Utah; perhaps Vernal.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

OriginalOscar said:


> Government can not and will not award contracts to unqualified parties.
> 
> If RMEF wants to be qualified contender for future, Mountain Festival in Park City this summer is that opportunity. RMEF has state tags they can either use to promote attendance, visitor spending, and maximum conservation funds; or keep doing the same thing.
> 
> Maybe 50/50 split. Give half the tags to RMEF National for Mountain Festival and half for a state convention in rural Utah; perhaps Vernal.


Thanks for the reminder the board changed the rules after they broke the law accepting late bids but whatever as along as the best choice wins right. 

So "Government" will just continue to change the rules to pick their winner. It's in everyone's best interest after all.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

OriginalOscar said:


> Government can not and will not award contracts to unqualified parties.
> 
> If RMEF wants to be qualified contender for future, Mountain Festival in Park City this summer is that opportunity. RMEF has state tags they can either use to promote attendance, visitor spending, and maximum conservation funds; or keep doing the same thing.
> 
> Maybe 50/50 split. Give half the tags to RMEF National for Mountain Festival and half for a state convention in rural Utah; perhaps Vernal.


Lol.. "Unqualified" - they literally dinged their proposal for recommending THE SAME DRAW COMPANY THE STATE USES. RMEF lost the proposal by 47.5 points. 40 of those points were lost in the draw security category. 

SFW got 100/100 and uses some bro-dude in his mom's basement. 

The most clear fact, is they changed the RFP after the deadline to 1. Allow SFW to get off their *** and submit one and 2. To favor SFW.


Also the state can skew things because the RFP is open to the chair's interpretation. Hilarious when almost half of the committee had to be excused because of direct affiliation with SFW. Of course the interpretation was in favor of theirs. They also had their name on theirs while the other was "offerer B". It wasn't a blind assessment - they knew which one to score higher.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> The most clear fact, is they changed the RFP after the deadline to 1. Allow SFW to get off their *** and submit one and 2. To favor SFW.


I want to make an important differentiation here. It wasn’t laziness or missing a deadline. They allowed SFW to see what their competition would be. I believe that was very purposeful in how it played out. And shady as possibly could be.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

RandomElk16 said:


> Lol.. "Unqualified" - they literally dinged their proposal for recommending THE SAME DRAW COMPANY THE STATE USES. RMEF lost the proposal by 47.5 points. 40 of those points were lost in the draw security category.
> 
> SFW got 100/100 and uses some bro-dude in his mom's basement.
> 
> ...


Easy now RandomElk16. You can't seriously be expecting that logic and reason will prevail to change the mind of someone who used neither to reach their original position? And on the internets no less?!!


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

RandomElk16 said:


> Lol.. "Unqualified" - they literally dinged their proposal for recommending THE SAME DRAW COMPANY THE STATE USES. RMEF lost the proposal by 47.5 points. 40 of those points were lost in the draw security category.
> 
> SFW got 100/100 and uses some bro-dude in his mom's basement.
> 
> ...


Who draws the Utah RMEF Conservation Tags? The company you reference or someone from a hat?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

OriginalOscar said:


> Who draws the Utah RMEF Conservation Tags? The company you reference or someone from a hat?


Nobody. They aren’t applications.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

This just keeps getting better and better.


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## dham088 (Jan 11, 2015)

I don’t care if it’s SFW or RMEF, the spending of the proceeds and draw process should have full transparency. They should also be open for third party auditing. These are public assets, and there are way too many coincidences to simply turn a blind eye. I am not a fan of legislative intervention with big game management. That is a slippery slope toward game management by ballot vs through biology. However the governor and the legislature should be heavily looking at the way this contract and these public assets are being managed (or potentially mismanaged). I fully support the idea behind this program. This should be a significant contribution to our wildlife, but is it? Nobody knows…


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> Nobody. They aren’t applications.


Yep and that's why RMEF was disqualified.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Goodness this has been a wild ride!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I saw that there were only about 6-8 folks that drew from out of state. I chuckled when I saw someone from Texas drew a GS Turkey permit. I bet they never show to hunt. 

I didn't apply (I don't like the expo because of $FW and wont give them a penny I found laying in the parking lot) so I cant complain about who did and didn't draw out. I just wish those that did draw the best of luck and happy hunting. May your tags be filled and BIG smiles!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

OriginalOscar said:


> Yep and that's why RMEF was disqualified.


There are no words. Even my go to that I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you, is woefully inadequate to fully capture the depth of the deficits you've displayed in this thread. 

Bravo?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

OriginalOscar said:


> Yep and that's why RMEF was disqualified.


You can't actually be that dense here can you? If you hate RMEF and like SFW, just say that. Don't throw logic out the window though. 

SFW uses a third party. 

Utah, uses a third party. RMEF recommended using that same 3rd party. They can prove out the reliability of that third party because they have drawn over a million tags for Utah.


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## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

johnnycake said:


> It's 2022, shouldn't we allow a boy to draw raffle ticket winners by now?


2020 expo they were Hooters waitresses doing the tag baskets etc. I’d rather have the chicks do the drawings than a computer.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

OriginalOscar said:


> Yep and that's why RMEF was disqualified.


No they were disqualified because SFW owns the DWR.


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## StorminNorman (Nov 11, 2021)

MooseMeat said:


> Would you call a Dutton elk tag a high profile tag?


Haha I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed the person who drew that.
You're subtle, MooseMeat, gotta keep it on the Hush Hussshhhhhhhh 🤫


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

So as we're all having this discussion, I just noticed this. New bill will add transparency to Utah wildlife fundraising


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## Hunter-wildbill (Nov 23, 2021)

maverick9465 said:


> I just learned today that Remi Warren drew one of the expo tags. Don't get me wrong. The dude is a stud and has put in the work to be as successful as he has been hunting (and commercially). Yet, it seems somewhat suspect that a celeb would draw one of these tags. Granted, his is an archery pronghorn tag, not a sheep tag, so his odds are "somewhat" better. But still.
> 
> I'm a big fan of Randy Newberg and Meateater content, but I do have to wonder about some of those hard-to-draw tags they generally seem to draw.
> 
> Do they draw these like the rest of us (preference and bonus) or is there something else afoot? If you say something fishy is going on, I'd love to hear about any evidence you might have to back this up.


Ah yes the multiple celebs/social media types that draw tags regularly . my understanding is they draw more people to apply by have a following on several platforms and they get put into a different bucket than the rest of us. CONSPIRACY 
as someone put it, THE NUMBERS DON'T LINE UP ! if you have a booth or a social media following you shouldn't draw several tags over years when some Joe smo will never draw. If they had to buy a hundred tags to offset the winning of a special draw verse Joe Smo only buying say 5 i get it. not the case .


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

OriginalOscar said:


> Government can not and will not award contracts to unqualified parties.


I bet you don't believe that statement yourself. Unqualified (actually incompetent and corrupt) is the very definition of government. 
RMEF was screwed out of that contract.


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## Adam Eakle (May 10, 2021)

Here's my take, for what it's worth. First off, the Conservation Expo Permit draw should always be open to the public, period! Covid or not. There could have easily been a public representative there to at least watch the process. Preferably one who has computer knowledge and can understand what is taking place. I've gone to two drawings just out of curiosity and although I'm not the sharpest tack in the room, I didn't see anything amiss. 

For the record, I know Rob ("The guy in his basement!" Sorry got a chuckle out of that comment), who runs the draw process for the expo. His daughter and mine played softball together. Rob is not a hunter, I don't think anyone in his family hunts and even if they did, he's told me he wouldn't allow them to apply for an expo tag. I've talked to him about the integrity of the draw. He knows he would lose everything. Not only the expo draw part of his business but every other aspect of his business as well, if it was not done with integrity. He is about the most honest guy I know. Could he be corrupted, sure anyone can, but I highly doubt it. Likewise, the two conservation orgs would lose the contract if anything was found to be compromised and they would lose their foothold in the conservation community. I just don't think there's a chance in Haiti that it isn't legit. My opinion. 

I remember back in the early days of the expo draw. I normally only spend $50-$100 on the draw for the family. That year I didn't have time to go through the individual hunts, so I decided at the expo to put myself in for all of the permits. It was over 500 bucks! My wife was not thrilled! Wouldn't you know it, I drew. In fact, I drew two tags. One was a turkey tag in Northern Utah and the other was a pronghorn tag up by Randolph. I was thrilled! Many people on this site and MM said I was compromised/turncoat, a bad dude! Believe me if someone was going to try and persuade me into changing my beliefs, and or position, a tag wasn't going to do it. They'd better pony up a 10-20 million dollars so I could retire and move to Mexico! I'm at the point where I don't want to see my name drawn and I doubt I'll keep putting in for the expo tags. I would rather watch someone who doesn't have the opportunities I've had and will have, draw a tag. I will however continue to put my 13 year old in every year and hope that he draws. 

Consider this. One of my buddies Jake, has drawn three great expo tags. A Vernon deer tag, a Boulder elk tag, and a Pronghorn tag. He knows no one! He's just a good dude from Cache Valley. 
I've heard of a lot of repeat winners. Questions about the draw process may be a pain to some, but I say keep asking questions. That's the publics right and job. Things don't get changed without asking questions. 

On that note, I applaud Rep. Casey Snider for sponsoring HB 78 (see link above from Maverick9469). It is something that is long overdue in my opinion. If you have a minute, every Utah sportsmen/woman should call their representative and convey their concerns for or against the bill. I sent an email to my representative today. The bill if passed would allow the public to see every step in the process, including the Legislature. The bill/law would allow the public to know where the money is spent, where it is collected, how much and all the steps in between. Public oversight is crucial. We the people are the watch dogs. 

Adam Eakle
[email protected]


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey... an fstop sighting. 

Oh and for public oversite, as I stated earlier (from a software engineering standpoint) its easy when the draw is run to save off the random number "seed", which is normally randomly generated and used when a draw is run.

Feeding that seed back into the software, should produce the exact same draw results as the "real" run. Alot of engineers write software this way for debugging purposes, its easier to debug any anomalous behavior.

Then... all you need is a couple folk to watch that the actual draw is generated once.

Easy peasy... in fact so easy, that's why it seems suspicious to people that its not done this way.

-DallanC


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

I know William Chesser. I worked with him for 15 + years. Never knew who Eric was till recently. William is a good dude and never got any special hunts out of his boys “fame”. 
I’d say I’m somewhat skeptical of the draw but Willy is the 3rd guy I know that’s drawn out of nothing but good luck.


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## StorminNorman (Nov 11, 2021)

I don't see anyone bashing the person who posted in here that they won, not one person has. I spent $100 and you don't see me complaining that I didn't win. The problem comes when people seem to routinely get "lucky". Raises some concerns that there might be something afoul causing others who I guarantee those tags would mean more to from possibly not drawing. Again, this is all speculation. But it's just interesting when certain individuals who have the money and fame continuously draw.
Which William Chesser drew and who actually put in for it? Are you sure it's the old man? or Willy Jr? Or William Eric Chesser? Or however many William Chessers there are out there!
For the record, I'm not saying I dislike any of the public figures that drew. All I'm saying is that I'm sure there's someone out there that would appreciate the tag more, that it would mean the world to and make their dreams come true, that hasn't had the opportunity to hunt all over the world and will continue to hunt all over the world and get incredible opportunities for the rest of their lives. Who doesn't have a massive collection of trophies but instead has zero trophies and memories hanging on their wall. This is some peoples chance to beat the odds and get a tag they would otherwise have no shot in he11 drawing or having the means to buy outright. Rigged or not, I'm not sure how I feel about these individuals participating in, and continuously winning, these types of draws that, in my opinion, are "the peoples" draw for lack of a better term coming to mind. Do they really need the tag over the vast majority of the other applicants?
Wall of thoughts, I don't know if I'm right or wrong quite yet lol


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Do I actually think there's funny business going on in that dude's basement? No, I don't.

But better transparency on the process given the private entities benefiting from public resources is a an absolute need for improvement on the system.

However, I will never let it go that the Wildlife Board dinged RMEF's proposal specifically on the category of how the draw would be conducted, because RMEF proposed using the exact same company DWR uses for the public draw. But the Wildlife Board gives SFW full marks on it's proposal to continue using some dude operating out of his basement (who at the time had an expired business license).

That right there is blatantly messed up


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

Adam Eakle said:


> Here's my take, for what it's worth. First off, the Conservation Expo Permit draw should always be open to the public, period! Covid or not. There could have easily been a public representative there to at least watch the process. Preferably one who has computer knowledge and can understand what is taking place. I've gone to two drawings just out of curiosity and although I'm not the sharpest tack in the room, I didn't see anything amiss.
> 
> For the record, I know Rob ("The guy in his basement!" Sorry got a chuckle out of that comment), who runs the draw process for the expo. His daughter and mine played softball together. Rob is not a hunter, I don't think anyone in his family hunts and even if they did, he's told me he wouldn't allow them to apply for an expo tag. I've talked to him about the integrity of the draw. He knows he would lose everything. Not only the expo draw part of his business but every other aspect of his business as well, if it was not done with integrity. He is about the most honest guy I know. Could he be corrupted, sure anyone can, but I highly doubt it. Likewise, the two conservation orgs would lose the contract if anything was found to be compromised and they would lose their foothold in the conservation community. I just don't think there's a chance in Haiti that it isn't legit. My opinion.


Great response and thanks for sharing your experience watching the draw!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Adam Eakle said:


> Here's my take, for what it's worth. First off, the Conservation Expo Permit draw should always be open to the public, period! Covid or not. There could have easily been a public representative there to at least watch the process. Preferably one who has computer knowledge and can understand what is taking place. I've gone to two drawings just out of curiosity and although I'm not the sharpest tack in the room, I didn't see anything amiss.
> 
> For the record, I know Rob ("The guy in his basement!" Sorry got a chuckle out of that comment), who runs the draw process for the expo. His daughter and mine played softball together. Rob is not a hunter, I don't think anyone in his family hunts and even if they did, he's told me he wouldn't allow them to apply for an expo tag. I've talked to him about the integrity of the draw. He knows he would lose everything. Not only the expo draw part of his business but every other aspect of his business as well, if it was not done with integrity. He is about the most honest guy I know. Could he be corrupted, sure anyone can, but I highly doubt it. Likewise, the two conservation orgs would lose the contract if anything was found to be compromised and they would lose their foothold in the conservation community. I just don't think there's a chance in Haiti that it isn't legit. My opinion.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response on these Adam! 

Rob likely is a good dude - but there can and should be transparency (as you called out) into what his draw process is. I also called it out because if the state believes, as implied in the RFP results, that Rob does a more secure draw than the company THEY USE - maybe Rob should do our regular draws as well. 

I will challenge one other part: "Likewise, the two conservation orgs would lose the contract if anything was found to be compromised and they would lose their foothold in the conservation community." 

It was clear during that RFP process that the wasatch front quake would have to hit, we would rewitness the Miracle of the gulls, and the Bonneville lake would have to come back for them to lose that contract. That process had "transparency" and still seemed riddled with sketchiness. As for their foothold - Don Peay has done things that should have led to that being lost already. Again, seems like that is an impossible doing. 

Average joe's draw. The ratio of celebs to average joe's that apply vs draw is a bit suspect, as is the ability of those in charge or affiliated being able to participate (and draw). That said, maybe everything is on the up and up. 

Which leads back to that critical piece: Visibility would put many minds at ease. I will be sure to write my rep as well.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

So, if the DWR eliminated RMEF from acquiring the contract of the EXPO because of what/how the draw process would be conducted, AND....it was going to be the same company that the DWR uses for the annual draws, why doesn't the DWR change to "Some Dude in his basement" draw process instead of Fallon Nevada? Somewhere, somehow, the stars just aren't lining up and giving me a warm fuzzy feeling. No matter what happens to this process there will always be those that cry out "Conspiracy". 

If $FW gave back 100% of the $5 app fee to the DWR for what SFW says is their platform (saving wildlife habitat) I'd have a little more respect for the group. Until that happens, they wont be getting a Christmas card from me. They* DO* need to remove the "F" from their name though to represent their interests.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

RandomElk16 said:


> You can't actually be that dense here can you? If you hate RMEF and like SFW, just say that. Don't throw logic out the window though.


RMEF member since 89. 

RMEF 231K members, SFW 8K members. One is able to organize a national convention the other; well enough said!

Think I'll join SFW.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

OriginalOscar said:


> RMEF member since 89.
> 
> RMEF 231K members, SFW 8K members. One is able to organize a national convention the other; well enough said!
> 
> Think I'll join SFW.


Let me know when that national convention translates into anything benefitting actual wildlife and conservation. But yay - flat brims and safari's!

Best of luck. Write the check out to "Don Peay".


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

For those Members who are unaware of the "National" events or conventions that RMEF puts on, even if you have been a member for 30+ years, but want to support:

Elk Camp and Mtn Festival - Park City
Hunter and Outdoor Christmas Expo - Vegas - FREE ADMISSION
The Great Elk Tour - Pairs with other events, like the ISE which I personally enjoy.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It’s interesting Oscar is dying on this sword. RMEF national convention pulls in numbers the Utah expo has never dreamed of. And they don’t even have the tags to draw others in like our expo here does. RMEF brings in double the attendees to their national convention without the welfare support of state tags. Facts are important. 

The old saying if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS applies here!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Truly, this is the gift of absurdity that keeps on giving


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

This thread, and more specifically the title, cracks me up. I've had to Google all these names just to figure out who the "celebrities" even are!

The only "celebrity" that I've been able to identify is Adam Eakle (and 'Nilla) -- apologies for categorizing you as a celeb Adam! 

Obviously, I'm watching and reading the wrong (or right?) celebrity gossip magazines and tv shows.....

....at least I know when to book my stay at Amangiri....


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

PBH said:


> This thread, and more specifically the title, cracks me up. I've had to Google all these names just to figure out who the "celebrities" even are!
> 
> The only "celebrity" that I've been able to identify is Adam Eakle (and 'Nilla) -- apologies for categorizing you as a celeb Adam!



I guess you aren't one of the cool kids that knows who these guys are...........................but then I didn't know who they were either. 🤦‍♂️ 

Is Nilla a celebrity? I keep hearing he has some wrestling props. Maybe he is Nacho Libre?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I do like stretchy pants…


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> I do like stretchy pants…


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

Would you call a Dutton elk tag a high profile tag?
[/QUOTE]
I drew Dutton archery elk in 2015 from the expo and am NO celebrity by a long shot. I would be a movie star if they asked me to be....I'm just waiting for my big break.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

I spoke with Kristy Titus at the show. She drew a Book Cliffs deer and has a very good YouTube video out from her hunt. She told me that she had applied for years for all the hunts and she was lucky enought to draw in 2021 but the hate mail was horrific with people accusing her of it being rigged. That sucks that people get so jealous.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

2:22 said:


> I spoke with Kristy Titus at the show. She drew a Book Cliffs deer and has a very good YouTube video out from her hunt. She told me that she had applied for years for all the hunts and she was lucky enought to draw in 2021 but the hate mail was horrific with people accusing her of it being rigged. That sucks that people get so jealous.


Not sure that jealousy is the same thing as questioning the lack of transparency on millions of dollars in tags.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

RandomElk16 said:


> Not sure that jealousy is the same thing as questioning the lack of transparency on millions of dollars in tags.


Really? So questioning transparency gives another hunter the right to ruin or taint another hunters joy in drawing a tag? It sure seems to be jealousy to me.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

2:22 said:


> Really? So questioning transparency gives another hunter the right to ruin or taint another hunters joy in drawing a tag? It sure seems to be jealousy to me.


Does telling a celeb hunter that a draw is rigged ruin joy? If you are talking about demeaning an individual, I don't agree anyone has the right to do that. If you are saying that "it's rigged" comments ruined her hunt, then yes we disagree.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

Calling it rigged on speculation is wrong. Prove that it's rigged then pipe off all you want. I'm sure there are MANY so called celebs that apply for the tags that don't draw. I feel their pain since mine was undrawn as well.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> Does telling a celeb hunter that a draw is rigged ruin joy? If you are talking about demeaning an individual, I don't agree anyone has the right to do that. If you are saying that "it's rigged" comments ruined her hunt, then yes we disagree.


Wow, these celebs sure are snowflakes if their experience is ruined by some people online saying the draw system is questionable at best. You know what I'd tell these sensitive celebs? Suck it up, buttercup! 

And don't bite the hand that feeds you.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

I have been applying for Utahs hunts for 44 years. Back in the day when alll of the hunts were a random draw, a person could draw all 5 hunts of the OIL in one year if they were fortunate enough. I did see guys draw 3 tags in a year on a couple of occasions. The DWR employees were NOT allowed to apply for hunts because they knew that the general public would cry "rigged" if they were fortunate enough to draw. It's just a sad deal that sportsman can be such winers. It's just not right. Can you imagine if a DWR employee drew 3 tags in the general draw? Back then, there were no computers to send out an email. We all went up to the Division office and they had a sheet of plywood on posts that had the drawn tags nailed to the board and you would look through the list of tags and see who drew them. People complained back then as well. Why can't hunters just be happy for other hunters?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Maybe it's just me and I am a jealous crybaby.

However - I can personally say that Doyle Moss, Wade Lemon, Don Peay, The Pope, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, that dude from the outdoor show, that gal from the other outdoor show... They could all draw OIAL tags from the regular draw in a single season and I wouldn't give two hoots. I am happy for them (Is Joe going to far?).

When it comes to sketchy back door dealings and wildlife funding being misallocated? I feel different. If that makes me a jealous crybaby - I guess I will be that. 

I just hope she wasn't upset on the dozens of free and fully outfitted hunts she had that year. This image comes to mind:


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

From what I see is that you always hear of the celeb drawing a tag that everyone wants at the Expo but you hear very little about old Joe who draws the same tag other than perhaps seeing their name on the list of those who draw. 

But I also agree that the drawing needs to be a lot more transparent but we have a few more years to wait until another organization gets a chance to do it or they rules are changed to allow that transparency.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It’s almost like Randomelk16 gets it, and 2:22 doesn’t. Weird…


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

2:22 said:


> Prove that it's rigged then pipe off all you want.


I think that's exactly what he's wanting. Transparency to prove that it is or isn't rigged.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Wow, these celebs sure are snowflakes if their experience is ruined by some people online saying the draw system is questionable at best. You know what I'd tell these sensitive celebs? Suck it up, buttercup!
> 
> And don't bite the hand that feeds you.


Wait -- are you talking about Westbrick?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

2:22 said:


> The DWR employees were NOT allowed to apply for hunts because they knew that the general public would cry "rigged" if they were fortunate enough to draw.


is this actually true? Because i don't recall employees not being allowed to draw. In fact, I know one really famous DWR employee -- I would dare call him a celebrity! -- that killed a buffalo on the Henry's back in the good old days when tags first became available to hunt them....


....so, I'm truly curious: was there a time that DWR employees were not allowed to enter OIL draws? What was the time period? Does anyone have something factual to back this?


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I know for sure of two employees that have drawn 
LE tags. Don't know of any OIL tags drawn.


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## Hunter-wildbill (Nov 23, 2021)

You all heard the $1.5 TRILLION OMNIBUS BILL was slipped out at 1:15 in the morning by Nancy Pelosi, just before the vote in the morning by congress? Yeah dirty politics happen at the highest levels and proving these tags are distributed fairly is no easy task ,but when math is used "SOMETING WONG" ! Anyway have a great day.


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## curlycoyote (Sep 11, 2015)

Don't know if this will work but it shows that in 1978 the governor made it so DWR employees could not put in because a lot were drawing OIL tags. In fact one drew two of them in one year. I am old enough to remember when this happened. I have no idea what the rule is now.









UTAH PUBLIC EMPLOYEES' AS | 610 P.2d 1272 (1980) | 2d127211872 | Leagle.com


HALL Justice This appeal is from a summary judgment upholding a policy directive issued by the Governor of the State of...2d127211872




www.leagle.com


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Thanks Curly! that's pretty interesting. The celebrity DWR employee I mentioned above would have drawn a buffalo tag right in that time range (~1976?). Interesting indeed.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

curlycoyote said:


> Don't know if this will work but it shows that in 1978 the governor made it so DWR employees could not put in because a lot were drawing OIL tags. In fact one drew two of them in one year. I am old enough to remember when this happened. I have no idea what the rule is now.


Yea I remember the big stink in the beginning when a few head DWR officials drew OILs year after year. Things changed quickly.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It is the same thing in any organization, when the people that are running the draws and who are the upper heads of the organization start winning there are going to be questions asked. That is why in a lot of drawings the people in charge or even work for the ones doing the draw are not eligible for any of the prizes. 

A number of years ago here in Colorado at a RMEF banquet a number of the higher end prizes were won by family members of those who were putting the banquet on. There were a lot of questions asked on just what went on with it and the big prize winner who won a F150 truck gave it back just because of the questions that were asked about it. He was the father in law of the person that organized the banquet. However none of the family members who won other prizes such as rifles and other high end products ever gave them back. 

But as to Utah's OIL tags, I know of a person who drew every OIL tag that Utah has. He drew the first moose tag in Hobble Creek Canyon the first year that he put in for it. He also drew a Henry Mountain bison tag the first year that he put in for it. Now those may of just been lucky draws but he also drew a Utah goat, and desert bighorn tag in the random draw. I asked him what type of glue he used on his application so that it would stick to the person who was doing the draw. He was lucky enough to get the sheep grand slam, and the only tags that were not in a random draw were his dall, and stone sheep.

He was just lucky.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

I know a guy just like that. I have drawn all 5 and my brother has drawn 4 of the 5 and could draw the final tag now if he would apply for a lesser unit but wont do it. Things were different back then.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

2:22 said:


> Calling it rigged on speculation is wrong. Prove that it's rigged then pipe off all you want. I'm sure there are MANY so called celebs that apply for the tags that don't draw. I feel their pain since mine was undrawn as well.


I'm not against celebs drawing tags...so long as I know that the process is fair. When SFW "won" the last expo contract, the general public could see just how that was rigged so that SFW could not, or should I say, would not, be allowed to lose. The fact they don't open their draw process to public scrutiny doesn't help either.

SFW can say that everything is fair all they want, but when things don't pass the smell test...well, I and many others just don't buy into their narrative.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> I'm not against celebs drawing tags...so long as I know that the process is fair. When SFW "won" the last expo contract, the general public could see just how that was rigged so that SFW could not, or should I say, would not, be allowed to lose. The fact they don't open their draw process to public scrutiny doesn't help either.
> 
> SFW can say that everything is fair all they want, but when things don't pass the smell test...well, I and many others just don't buy into their narrative.


Precisely!


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