# Rocky Mountain Big Horn Sheep



## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

I went hiking this afternoon with a buddy, this is the first time I have ever tried to get close to big game animals. We got to within about 30 yards of the sheep, the deer were a little bit more skittish. After this stalk, I want to go big game hunting, especially with a bow. I took these pictures with a simple point and shoot camera with about 3x optical zoom, no fancy slr otherwise they would look a lot better.









A lone buck
































































And away they go (in a hurry if I might add)


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## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

good work man! those are decent pics. i think some of those sheep were banded!!  (sorry i hunt to much waterfowl) where were the sheep at? if its a secret i understand, but i know of a few places they live, so i just wondered


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Nic pics. Big Horns do get the blood pumping don't they; one day I will complete my slam 1 down 3 to go. Were you guy out on Antelope Island?


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

deadicated1 said:


> i think some of those sheep were banded!!  *(sorry i hunt to much waterfowl)* where were the sheep at? if its a secret i understand, but i know of a few places they live, so i just wondered


I am the same way, I have only ever bird hunted, but I definatly want to big game hunt after this <<--O/

Sorry guys its not my spot to give away, I will ask my buddy if I can tell. But I can tell you we weren't out at Antelope Island.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

They talked tonight about a disease that some of the sheep get - and hopefully someone more informed will give us the straight scoop instead of my second hand understanding- which has made some local sheep die. I guess it comes from domestic sheep, but the Division guy did say that when the sheep get stressed and they have this problem it can lead to death. Things that stress them were listed as dogs, shed hunters, and obviously you could add 1000 things. I don't blame you a bit for being stoked to see sheep and who knows if these sheep struggle with that or not. The thing is actually is actually a pneumonia type of thing and I can see how hard running could exacerbate an existing problem. 

Just saying for all of us - this is a disease I didn't know anything about, but it IS killing big horns here in Utah Valley right now. Someone said they were "tipping over" sounded like he said by the Springville McDonalds? If anyone knows about it in actual detail please post so we can all be edurmacated. The sheep have always been easy to approach, but with this info I think we all can live with good optics or lenses and keep our distance.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

huntingbuddy said:


> deadicated1 said:
> 
> 
> > i think some of those sheep were banded!!  *(sorry i hunt to much waterfowl)* where were the sheep at? if its a secret i understand, but i know of a few places they live, so i just wondered
> ...


Thats cool I know where a couple of herds are, I'm waiting to see where I draw at anyways, I'd imagine I'll be traveling out of state for my big horn

[attachment=1:2veqvknx]gog2 054.jpg[/attachment:2veqvknx]

Deadicated1 here's your banded (ear tagged) Ram

[attachment=0:2veqvknx]gog2 048.jpg[/attachment:2veqvknx]


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## Mormonboi (Jan 15, 2008)

Hey, so this was me and huntingbuddy last night. It was above the Cedar Hills golf course fyi....I live right below and watch the sheep all the time.

Curious about that disease issue, first I have heard of it. I certainly haven't seen a single dead sheep in the 90+ times I have gone out and hiked/stalked the bighorns up here by AF canyon in the last 5 months. curious to know more about this. 

I used to not be interested really in the sheep species, but with the herd growth and constant(as in daily) sightings of these animals from my living room, it has certainly piqued my interest you could say!


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Pasteurella is a bacteria which causes the sheep to develop pneumonia. The older sheep are more capable of overcoming the effects, but many may die. Lambs on the other hand are very susceptible and lamb die-offs are extreme. So without lambs, the herd obviously can not grow. Stress, by people, pets and predators causes higher rates of infection. Dead sheep are removed and tested. That is why we don't see carcasses the mountain. 

As the old saying goes, if the animals are moving then you are too close. Making them move and run will cause the stress which could lead to their death. It is very nice having a herd so close to home, BUT how many lambs have you guys seen in that herd? 1, maybe 2. There are 30+ ewes. The lambs are dieing. The herd is diminishing. Please give them a break and view them from a reasonable distance.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Packout said:


> The lambs are dieing. The herd is diminishing. Please give them a break and view them from a reasonable distance.


+100


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

You know- if someone wants their hours for dedicated I have a suggestion. See if the Division will help you design and work with local city managers to allow you to post signs about not stressing the sheep and the nature of the disease and value of them at trailheads near the foothills. Add something about keeping dogs on leashes, choosing other trails, keep dogs at home during winter and spring, and don't approach. Like the other said- if they run you are too close. That would be great to have clearly stated on the sign. I bet the coordinator would love you for that kind of project.


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> You know- if someone wants their hours for dedicated I have a suggestion. See if the Division will help you design and work with local city managers to allow you to post signs about not stressing the sheep and the nature of the disease and value of them at trailheads near the foothills. Add something about keeping dogs on leashes, choosing other trails, keep dogs at home during winter and spring, and don't approach. Like the other said- if they run you are too close. That would be great to have clearly stated on the sign. I bet the coordinator would love you for that kind of project.


I would like you to find me one article where the sheep up by cedar hills have been harassed so much that they are dying. Right now I think you are blowing smoke out your @$$. Your mad cause you have never been able to sneak up on sheep which by the way was some what easy. Guess what I wasn't using camo.

Cause you know what those sheep were never in a hurry to leave, they really weren't concerned with us. When the sheep only walk a couple yards away from you, give you a look then continue to do what they were doing, they aren't being stressed one bit. We went out again this afternoon a little bit south and happened up some deer at about 50-60 yards. They looked at us and trotted off, and there were quite a few yearlings.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

You're right. No reason to err on the side of caution. Next time take a saddle and your camo and see if you can ride one of them. I bet you're sneaky enough to make it happen since those sheep are unapproachable. Not like anyone went to any effort to get the sheep there. 

I really hope you are just being a troll. If you actually think that way then I am disgusted that you are a hunter. The idea behind the signs isn't to keep informed folks miles away, I thought it would be good to do to INFORM the people who haven't a clue. It's too bad you're one of them. I wasn't attacking anyone or laying blame on you for wanting to approach and take pictures. I was passing on new info that I got at the RAC and you're right...it was news to me. Glad we're on the same team though, you really make a fellow sportsman proud. 

I think posting signs is a fantastic idea and I hope someone decides to pursue it. Would benefit (you excluded) people to get information they can use.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Still looking but here is a start:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/science/20sheep.html



> Numerous major bighorn die-offs throughout the West dating from the 1800's have been laid to disease transmitted by domestic sheep. Rob Roy Ramey II, a curator at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, said: "There is the assertion that if you put bighorn sheep together with domestic sheep, the bighorn sheep die of domestic sheep diseases. Does it happen all the time? Yes, it does. It always happens."





> Dr. Rink, who said she had not published her findings, has questioned much of the accepted science about Sierra Nevada bighorn diseases. Although she agrees that domestic sheep can transmit diseases to bighorns, the threat has been exaggerated, she said.
> 
> "That bighorn sheep don't carry Pasteurella is a myth," she said. "There is a lot of evidence that they already have all the pathogens endemically. We need to establish if there is a bighorn sheep die-off, if that pathogen was recently introduced into the bighorn sheep population or whether it has been in the population for months, if not years, and the bighorn sheep immune system breaks down under bad environmental conditions."


what would you characterize as bad environmental conditions? How about wintering (worst time of year for all big game) next to a jogging trail? Or a few of dumb hunters. Either might fit the bill.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

A little closer to home: http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/public_mee ... march6.pdf

From a draft of the Utah Big Horn Sheep Management Plan on page 5:



> Exposure of bighorn sheep to domestic sheep and goats carrying those bacteria can have devastating results and examples of epizootic outbreaks of respiratory disease due to contact with domestic sheep or goats exist in the literature (Jessup 1985, Foreyt 1990, Martin et al. 1996, Rudolph et al. 2003). Large population declines in bighorn sheep due to Pasteurella infections have also occurred in the apparent absence of contact with domestic sheep or goats. The cause of those die-offs have been attributed to various forms of stress including overcrowding, poor nutrition, human disturbance, loss of habitat, and competition with domestic and feral animals (DeForge 1981, Spraker et al. 1984, Bunch et al 1999).


Enough said. Pull your head out.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Huntingbuddy,
You have the choice to believe what you want. The facts remain, as stated by numerous biologists researching the Pneumonia caused by Pasteurella, that when stressed the sheep are more susceptible to the bacteria which causes Pneumonia which in turn causes the sheep to die. Just Tuesday night in Springville, 2 biologists (who are some of the best we have in Utah) stated the causes of stress. These included people viewing them too close, shed hunters, dogs, etc... So you can continue to disregard the biologists who have studied sheep or you can educate yourself on the subject (not meaning you are ignorant). 

The facts are simple, especially with the sheep on the Wasatch Front, specifically above Alpine, Cedar Hills, Provo, and Springville. 
1- The sheep are dieing of Pasteurella. 
2- Stress on the sheep causes the disease to manifest itself.
3- There are, essentially, no lambs living to their first year in many herds.
4- People need to stay a reasonable distance from the sheep to curtail stress.


You said - "And away they go (in a hurry if I might add)", taking photos of them running. That is too close.


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> Next time take a saddle and your camo and see if you can ride one of them.


Do you have a saddle I can borrow?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Packout said:


> You said - "And away they go (in a hurry if I might add)", taking photos of them running. *That is too close*.


Right again!


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

SteepNDeep it sure felt like a personal attack on me and the activity I was involved in. Frankly I dont care if someone on the internet thinks I am a good sportsman or not. 

What I am saying is I dont think this pasterulla crap is hurting the herd up on timp. 

Packout your right I did say that on one of my pictures. But that was after 20 or so minutes of me being there taking pictures, I have no idea what spooked them. Probably the kids that were running around up above us. Those sheep knew me and my buddy were there, but they chose not to run. 

Mormonboi practically lives up on that mountain and watches those sheep every day. I think he would know if lambs were dying. He hasnt seen one bit of remains up there. 

Do you want me to go tell those kids not to play up there too, oh and I will go tell the hobos we met up there too.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

huntingbuddy said:


> Mormonboi practically lives up on that mountain and watches those sheep every day. I think he would know if lambs were dying. He hasnt seen one bit of remains up there.


Does Mormonboi have an explanation for the FACT the lamb survival rate for that herd is less than 10%? If not, maybe you should question his qualifications for knowing what is harmful for the sheep and what is not. Justify all you want what you did, but it doesn't change the FACT *you* showed the sheep running away from *you* in your pictures. I know not about the 'kids' or 'hobos', but I do know *you* admitted to getting with very close range of them, which DOES cause undue stress on the animals. No one is 'throwing you under the bus', but try and learn from this before repeating it, just a thought. I have no doubt you have no desire to harm the sheep intentionally, all some here are trying to do is explain the effects of your actions, which can be very fatal to the sheep.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

So how many lambs has Mormonboi seen? How many lambs from 2007 are alive in the herd above Cedar Hills today? 

It would be nice if everyone would keep their distance. The situation is tenuous, and having people, who should know better, ignore the problem only exacerbates the problem. So yes, go be an example and educate others to keep their distance, too. Thanks for your help in solving the problem.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

This is one of the reasons I enjoy this forum, I learn new stuff all the time. I was unaware and naive of those situations with the sheep. I have never been near big horn sheep before, but now I know to keep my distance if I do see them. 

Huntingbuddy, you seem like a great kid and like Pro said I believe you would never intentionally hurt an animal, but sometimes you have to swallow your pride, admit you were wrong and correct the situation. I use to shed hunt and push animals around when I was younger in the winter time. I am embarrassed that I use to do that, but I was unaware of the damage I was doing. Now I don't shed hunt at all until later in the year. I think it is good to learn from others and take the proper steps.


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## Mormonboi (Jan 15, 2008)

Is pasturella occuring, yes. However, the articles only have circumstancial, and quite frankly unsubstantiated, evidence to suggest that the occurrence in the population OUTSIDE the presence of domestic sheep and goats is tied to human harrassment. I am a bio major at BYU, with 6 semesters left, so I understand a bit of the lingo, not all but a fair bit more than the average joe. 

As for the lamb issue, I noticed last year specifically in the group of 4 ewes(2 older, 2 younger-I would guess bewteen 2/3 yrs) that live on the hill directly above the course to the south of the canyon year round that there were 2 lambs to begin with, and by august one had dissappeared. This surviving lamb is actually in these pictures as you will note that one of these sheep is a yearling. that is 50% survival on this group. 

Then you have what I nicknamed the "migratory" group which has a resident 3/4 curl ram with about 10 ewe's. I noticed 6 lambs last year, and this winter with the congregated groups on the golf course( one group of 17, another of 25--both seen at the same time with approximately 200yds separation) the tally was 4 mature rams-3 3/4 curl 1 full curl---with 8 young rams(less than 3/4 curl), 10 ewes that were noticeably mature and older, another 10 that were younger but not yearlings, and 11 yearling lambs. These are documented in a paper I wrote for my biodiversity 220 class at BYU. So I fail to see a 10% lamb survival here if you have 12 lambs for 20 some odd ewes by the end of the winter with a confirmed predation on one of the lambs. Granted there could have been 20 lambs to begin with I don't see the larger herds on a regular basis. But if you take a fawn crop at 100% or a total of 24 lambs (which a 100% lamb crop is a laughable concept to begin with...but I digress) and have a surviving 12 lambs by february....I see a lamb survival hovering at 50%. If we had a surving fawn crop of 50% for deer, we would be stoked!!!! I can't speak for the herds south of the AF area, but this area has seen a tremendous growth in the numbers of sheep. Heck, Karl Malone got his ram off this area this year, and if I am not mistaken the Governor's tag is allowed to hunt them this year, followed by the sportman's tag the next(or vice versa my mind is blanking on the pecking order). 

Say what you want but I have documented this herd quite closely, and have heard NOTHING about a poor fawn crop for this region. But I could be wrong....in which case my eyes(and cameras, spotting scopes, binoculars, and rangefinders) are in need of a fixing....


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## Bridger (Mar 28, 2008)

That is pretty good mormonboi. A biology major with 6 semester left, whats that 3 years? So you have had a couple biology classes? I am sure that most people understand as much as you with your 1.5 semesters taken. :roll: I am sorry for this being my first post, but I find it kind of funny how a couple of 18 year olds, one that has never big game hunted, can argue on topics that they really know nothing about. Huntingbuddy usually, and if you knew big game you would find out, when they dont stand and stare at you doesnt mean that they dont know you are there. They will just do there thing until they get tired of being watched and then take off. Your pictures do show them looking at you, so when you say that you didnt spook them, it doesnt make sense. :shock:


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## Mormonboi (Jan 15, 2008)

Wow, as stated I understand more than the average joe, I never said I was an expert. But that 6 semesters is 1/2 to my major, I have had 5 courses in biology in various focuses above the 200 level. But hey, what have you taken? What aspects of the three various serotypes common in sheep and the functions as to how they attack the cranioventral lung distrobution do you understand? What biological training do you have? I don't have the most I admit, however, I have hunted my whole life, on top of which I have taken courses, and published papers/cowrote papers on various big game species interaction with human encroachment that have been published. But yeah, your right, I don't know ANYTHING on the subject of biology. :roll: 

I never stated that they didn't know we were there, but I don't believe that they were worried. How often do you(well, I don't know how you act in the field, you could very well be an incapable stalker, or the next Fred Bear...) get close to big game animals, with thier knowledge of your presence, and not spook them? Just because they know you are there doesn't mean they are spooked! For the record, within a minute after the sheep took a quick trot from 30 yards to 150 yards from us(hardly a situation that they felt direly threatened from
IMO), 2 kids under 10 came barreling over the ridge....coincidence? possibly. But I digress.

I would again encourage someone to show documentation of pasturella deaths in the AF canyon "subherd" if you will, of the wasatch bighorn population. I still haven't found anything documented from the springville incidents aforementioned. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just like to see the pudding for myself before jumping on the bandwagon.


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## Bridger (Mar 28, 2008)

I never said you didnt know anything, I am sure that you know a little bit. I dont believe anyone said the deaths were happening in AF Canyon, but the point is it could happen as it has been happening other places around the country, and the more you pressure them they have a higher chance of getting sick. Those kids you keep bringing up have nothing to do with it. The sheep were looking at you, so they new you were there, and the fact that they ran away, they probably got nervous because you werent moving, like a mountain lion or another predator would do, hence, they felt threatened so they ran away. Whether it was you or those other kids my bet is on you guys having something to do with them running away. So in your six years of "hunting your whole life" you must be some kind of pro.


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## Mormonboi (Jan 15, 2008)

Wow, again....having been that 3 year old who tagged along to deer/elk/antelope camp, I have considered myself a hunter since before I carried a tag. But I don't think I am a pro. Nonetheless, when you combine what "field experience" I have had with my collegiate classroom experience(and proficiency if you take publication 3x in Scientific American, once leading twice cowriting, as any level upon which to base from) I do understand the dynamics of the system a bit more than your average joe. Again, upon what do you base your opinion on the matter? What understanding do you posses in your ultimate wisdom and sagacity?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

This will be my last post on this subject.

Biologists from the UDWR have asked people not to harass the wildlife, in particular the sheep. They have stated publicly that stress caused by human interaction can lead to the sheep being more susceptible to contract Pneumonia. It amazes me that we have people who act as though they are concerned about the resource, yet they will not take the advice given them. 

The major Pasteurella out-break is occurring in the herd south of Provo canyon. But there has been trouble with it also in the herd North of Provo Canyon. (Pasteurella comes in different strains, much like the Flu comes in different strains for humans.) There have been sheep dieing from pneumonia caused by the disease in both herds, but the Springville herd has had a major die-off of older age classes this winter. You can call the Springville office and verify this for yourselves; 491-5678, ask for the info.

As for seeing 11 yearling lambs, I would love to see the photos to prove it. After viewing the sheep above Alpine thru the spotting scope, we counted up to 21 different sheep, but could only see 1 lamb. I am not saying you are wrong, but I would really like to see proof of 50% lamb survival. 

Finally, the issue of allowing hunting on the Wasatch herd last year and this year is a complex issue. The herd could not sustain the harvest of too many rams. Last year there was 1 public draw tag and 1 governors tag hunting the unit. Both rams were transplanted and not born on the unit. This year, due to the die-offs and struggles of the herd, the Wasatch sheep unit was realigned, taking out the Springville portion of the herd. This year there will be 1 public draw tag and 1 sportsmans tag hunting the unit. Most likely, the unit will be closed next year because of poor lamb recruitment. 

So believe what you want. The fact remains the same, if the animals are moving you are too close. I am not trying to rip on you guys. We all love the resource, sometimes we just love it to death.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Speechless. Seriously, I can't believe you guys keep arguing this. What right are you trying to keep here? The right to chase sheep, or the right to tell us that the sheep are safe from the disease and immune to harassment? I have so much I want to say to you that I'm speechless. I don't even know where to start. Glad others have cooler heads than I do.

I guess I should try to elevate things to your level, so here goes: Your pictures suck. :mrgreen:


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

we are defending our actions and position. Those that condemn certain actions of another are usually the worst offenders of that action.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Well, I'll have you all know that I once took Biology 101 and failed it 3 times, which puts me in an elite class, a special class. You could even say I'm a special ed. student. None the less, it has been rumored that I have a brain and there is a fragmented body of evidence to confirm this since I'm usually able to put my pants on in the morning with only a couple tries. Using my remaining mental faculties, I suggest the following.

First, there's some heat in this thread that is unintended and unnecessary. We all love wildlife and bighorns hold a special place in the wild kingdom. (Sounds like Marty Stouffer, huh?)

Second, resistance to disease would seem to be about immunity and all of us are well aware of the effects of stress on any animal's immune system. Most certainly, an animal that becomes so stressed due a human encounter that it dies is doomed to extinction. I don't know anything about sheep, but I really doubt that the encounter that resulted in these photos killed any sheep because, well, they aren't extinct.

On the other hand, common sense tells me that the continual and unrelenting string of encounters that almost all wild animals must endure in today's world does indeed have an impact. No single person or single encounter bears the blame, here. But that doesn't mean that any one of us can have a cavalier attitude about it, either.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Finn, I agree.I have read in preivious post about encounters with dogs chasing animals with the owners nearby laughing it up thinking its cute. I think its a discretion thing, use your best judgment and go by the guidlines laid down by the DWR. If you feel you may stress the animals leave them be. but just be unobtrusive as possible. Got the pants and shirt on its the shoes still giving me fits.


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## mityrojo (Mar 28, 2008)

This is for Mormonboi,

Have you heard of the saying? "Classroom smart, bus stupid" A person that is the smartest person in the classroom, but becomes the stupidest person as soon as he steps on the bus!
I sure hope you used spell check on the papers you published and/or co-wrote, because you sure miss-spell a lot of words in your posts. I have a hard time believing anyone that can't spell is as smart as you claim you are!


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## Petersen (Sep 7, 2007)

Mormonboi said:


> ...(and proficiency if you take publication 3x in Scientific American, once leading twice cowriting, as any level upon which to base from) I do understand the dynamics of the system a bit more than your average joe.


As a longtime subscriber to _Scientific American_, I wasn't aware that their editors solicited articles from undergraduate students. It must be an honor to be part of a group that also includes numerous Nobel Prize winners. Anyway, I'd very much like to read the articles you cowrote and, especially, the one on which you took the lead. I don't have a complete set of back issues from the past 15 years, but I have quite a few of them. Would you care to provide some article titles and dates of publication?

Also, I have to agree with what Finn said. It's unlikely that sneaking up on a few bighorns and shooting some photos did a whole lot of harm. Still, the cumulative effect of repeated close encounters of this sort do take a toll - especially this time of the year. It's probably best to keep a non-threatening distance from these animals.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Mormonboi, I mean no disrespect, but undergrads (with 3 years) rarely are co-authors of published studies, let alone author. I got my masters in Engineering and you generally don't even get opportunities until Junior going into Senior year of your undergrad to be involved, but never publish. Usually the first two to three semesters in any program consist of generals and basic level courses. 200 courses are very basic courses, just getting your feet wet. I could see maybe being involved in the paper as in the research as you said you did, but to author and co-author, I don't know. Please prove me wrong and give us the link or references to it. Second of all school teaches you how to learn, you will quickly be humbled when you step out into the real world. I have learned more in two years in the field than I did in 6 years of school. Just keep and open mind and listen to others. I had a professor who use to tell us, we are teaching you just enough to make you dangerous. There is a lot of truth to that.

Also you have studied a small group and only looked into a few aspects when there are many aspects to the survival and death of these animals. Just simply watching them for a few months is not enough, IMO. Once again, this is how I have seen it, but I definitely could be wrong and please prove me wrong and I will be the first to apologize. Even with that I still think you should keep your distance. You can study them from a quarter mile away just as easy from 30 yards.


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## Bridger (Mar 28, 2008)

Very well said jahan, and petersen! 8)


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Mboi, I don't care if you're professor Plum and you had a hot maid as a TA I wouldn't sign up for your class. When I tested the waters of Wildlife and Range management at the Y professor Black told us how he felt that a big challenge in Utah was working with the locals. Go to the source since you are there, but in better words than mine he said that locals want to consume and not to conserve or, heaven forbid, reverse any effects that we have had here on the environment. He said one would butt up against those sort of things when trying to manage responsibly. I think that it is a tough task to work with public and management wants and demands that conflict here in Utah. I'm local, but I hope not one by his description. What are you? Away from what he said and an actual issue for big game is winter range or lack thereof along the Wasatch Front. People have spent loads of time, money, public relations, personal commitments, and yep even coveted tags to get those sheep transplanted and going again. Essentially it is a miracle out west to get large herds of animals restored to ranges from where they have been exterminated. And, as you have pointed out, they are right next to our homes, trails, and roads. 

No one started by attacking you two for checking out the sheep. Go back and read my first post. I said I don't blame you a bit for wanting to do it and snapping cool pics. Still not great quality  , but I appreciated you sharing them then. Then I post about what I admittedly knew little about - this disease. The guys who already finished your program say in the RAC: stress from shed hunters, dogs, other things can/may excacerbate an existing problem. And oh, by the way, some sheep are dying from it. A few guys respond to the post and say, yes - keep distant from the sheep. And you feel the need to tell everyone about how much you know, how attached you are to the herd, and that everyone is wrong and you can keep approaching the sheep because you've been published. 

You're wrong from a management standpoint, wrong from a political standpoint, and you set a bad example if you really maintain that you have every right to stand 50 yards from the sheep this time of year. The science of management has at its core: let nature do its thing. You know the biggest footprint in this world is human and the idea is to set things up so that we don't cause more problems than we already have. As an example: 2 million people pushing up like a wave on the benches and foothills. The mountains need a sign in the spring like a hotel room - DO NOT DISTURB. No, I am guessing you didn't kill anything or chase it 6 ridges. It's the passion with which you defend it (when not even accused) that blows me away. Don't you want to educate others with the knowledge you have? Wouldn't you preach responsibly safe viewing distances knowing that there COULD be an impact? No one said you killed them. All anyone said was be the example which you seem to want to avoid. Enter to Learn Go Forth to Serve. That knowledge you are getting isn't even fully paid for by you no matter what your tuition circumstances may be and you can't expect me to believe that Go Forth to Serve means go make sure everyone knows you know a lot. Knowledge without proper application is wasted.

Pro often says that big game management is politics. I hate that. It is a fact. You ought to listen to a guy like him who may or may not have the degree you seek, but has the passion to be out doing things for himself and others. Your arguments seem to be self serving while everyone else is saying - let's take care of the great resource that exists and be grateful that it is there. Politics is all about tone, PR, an understanding of complex viewpoints surrounding one singular action, and projecting the outcome of any implemented policy or hoped for changes. What change would you want in this situation? I suggested that someone post some informative signs for the many who don't know what you don't seem to want to know. What is your solution to people mixing with these sheep as it isn't going to change? 

These are my opinions. I'm fully aware of that fact as well.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

To me it comes down to us as sportsmen having stewardship over the animals we love pursuing. That means, to me, that we hold ourselves to a higher standard than the 'general' public. I used to shed hunt in February and March, but as I have learned more about the effects of such actions, I won't start shed hunting until mid-April, even with the knowledge that the delay decreases my odds of finding sheds. I do this because I desire to have as little negative impact on the wildlife as possible. I also do NOT start scouting until late June, early July to give newborn animals better odds of surviving that critical first few eeks of life. Do I expect all others to comply with the same restrictions? No, but I do hope more 'sportsmen' will stop and think before repeating actions that CAN have negative impacts on wildlife. I expect 10 year old kids to do foolish things, I expect 'educated' ADULTS to act better and learn from behavior that has proven to harm wildlife such as bighorns. I'll admit before Jan. I had little interest in bighorns, but after helping in transplanting some from Antelope Island I have started studying up on these cool, but fragile, animals. I am lucky enough to observe many of the animals I helped transplant weekly on the Stansbury Range, always from at least 300 yards away, often from 1/2 a mile or more away. The lamb survival in this herd is much higher than the one photographed in this thread. I believe the interaction with humans is less common with 'my' herd than 'your' herd. When we were doing the transplant, I was lucky enough to talk with several biologists and sheep 'experts' on the dynamics of bighorn sheep. I spent 2 days with a couple dozen 'experts', and I enjoyed every minute of it.

In summary, we as STEWARDS of wildlife MUST take a long look at how are actions affect wildlife, and then act accordingly in the future.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I live in the same area that mormomboi does just south of the golf course. I have viewed these animals from afar since they re introduced them there. Believe what you want but the lamb's are suffering. The count has fluxuated. But just talk to the CO's, and the county sheriff that patrol the area. They do get alot of harassment complaints with the sheep. I've grown up on this mountain and I was elated when the sheep were re introduced. These sheep get more pressure from people since they are alot closer to more people, Ie the golf course, etc. Plus they live withinn yard of homes, dogs, cars, etc. Lets just err on the side of caution. Let just do them a favor and view them from a distance. It can't hurt right?


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## travis madden (Sep 29, 2007)

JAKE STOP CHASING THE SHEEP //dog// o-||


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## InvaderZim (Sep 7, 2007)

Where's mormonbio?

8)


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Huntingbuddy, why do you need to try and get as close as you can to these Bighorn Sheep? Can't you view the same sheep 500 yds away or farther? If someone saw you sneaking close to these sheep and the sheep took off running like they did then they could call the DWR and say you are harassing wildlife and you would have to explain to the officer just what your motives were. Imagine if they took a picture or video of you as proof. DWR guys are watching the sheep all the time and just maybe one of these days you will get caught and Mormonboi's biology background won't save you and him.


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

Things get a bit "stressed" on here when the principle of patience and understanding are not pondered on. I have to admit, if I was up and thought to stalk in on some sheep and thought it cool and wanted to post my accomplishment on this buddy buddy forum and get slapped accross the knuckles, my human instinct of survival might kick in and initially I might strike back from the corner I was placed in. But things do settle out and points do get across and understanding does get implemented and hopefully future practices do go in favor of the education process. Now everyone go back and remember how we came across the information about stressing the animals and made the decission to back off a bit and calm down a bit. My confession: Lets just say I might have been on horse back, maybe with my brother, who might have been on a runner, and we might have inadvertanly ridden into a herd of deep sage brush bedded deer that might have numbered in the, lets say close to a hundred deer. These deer might have started to pop out of their beds while we were right in the middle of them and as I was maybe able to whirl my horse and control her, maybe my brother could not get a hold of his horse that took off with the deer and 101 deer and a horse centered right in the middle of them ran at full speed for maybe a couble a hundred yards or so, while maybe my brother couldn't wipe the smile off of his face for about 72 and a half days. That might have been a long time ago, and well before a time that I would never allow a mistake like that to happen again. My point? I love wildlife, want the best for them, want to edumicate meself so that I know and DO what is in their best interest, and have made mistakes in the past because I love wildlife, but thought they were only there for me.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

EPEK said:


> Things get a bit "stressed" on here when the principle of patience and understanding are not pondered on. I have to admit, if I was up and thought to stalk in on some sheep and thought it cool and wanted to post my accomplishment on this buddy buddy forum and get slapped accross the knuckles, my human instinct of survival might kick in and initially I might strike back from the corner I was placed in. But things do settle out and points do get across and understanding does get implemented and hopefully future practices do go in favor of the education process. Now everyone go back and remember how we came across the information about stressing the animals and made the decission to back off a bit and calm down a bit. My confession: Lets just say I might have been on horse back, maybe with my brother, who might have been on a runner, and we might have inadvertanly ridden into a herd of deep sage brush bedded deer that might have numbered in the, lets say close to a hundred deer. These deer might have started to pop out of their beds while we were right in the middle of them and as I was maybe able to whirl my horse and control her, maybe my brother could not get a hold of his horse that took off with the deer and 101 deer and a horse centered right in the middle of them ran at full speed for maybe a couble a hundred yards or so, while maybe my brother couldn't wipe the smile off of his face for about 72 and a half days. That might have been a long time ago, and well before a time that I would never allow a mistake like that to happen again. My point? I love wildlife, want the best for them, want to edumicate meself so that I know and DO what is in their best interest, and have made mistakes in the past because I love wildlife, but thought they were only there for me.


I am not going to lie, I am more impressed with the never ending sentences than the message you are speaking.   You are the king of a run on sentence my friend, all others are just wannabes. :lol: 8)


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

Just so everyone knows, I rarley breath when I am typing.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

EPEK said:


> Just so everyone knows, I rarley breath when I am typing.


So do you also talk hundred words a second also? That is one of the funniest things I have read in a while. :lol:


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

I am not going to lie, I get into a topic and make sure that I understand what I am saying while I am saying it and have to think while I am producing thought which comes out in words and other sort of grunting sounds so that by the time I get done saying what it is I am trying to say I sort of get it out and try to make it make sense and all of the stuff in the beggining of my conversation is just me buying time so that I can make sure I don't contradict myself by the time I feel I have adiquatley made my point and that the words I have chosen are at least recognizable if not spelled exactly correct.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

EPEK said:


> I feel I have *adiquatley* made my point and that the words I have chosen are at least recognizable if not *spelled exactly correct*.


 :lol: :wink:


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

What, you couldn't tell that was adiquate? I didn't take to many 200 level courses in cawledge, they intimidated me.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

> maybe my brother could not get a hold of his horse that took off with the deer and 101 deer and a horse centered right in the middle of them ran at full speed for maybe a couble a hundred yards or so, while maybe my brother couldn't wipe the smile off of his face for about 72 and a half days.


I didn't know horses were faster than deer, I learned something.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

Also in my defense, I honestly didn't know any better, and praise Jesus that I didn't 

*OOO* *OOO* *OOO* *OOO* *OOO* *OOO*


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Horses ARE faster than deer...Although I don't know if horses are faster than Big Horn. I do know deer can corner a little faster, and when you come across a barbed wire fence they tend to leave you and the horse behind! :mrgreen:


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

I think they went back to Pollocks site to hide,,,,,


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

who is pollock?


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Hey Jahan your mom went to college.

Huntingbuddy, come on, I'm disappointed in you. For as much time as you spent on this forum surely you have to know the three golden rules

1. Don't post pictures of yourself with your fingers in a fish's gills, later claiming to have released it.

2. Don't ever say you bumped a big game species doing something stupid, especially not during the hunt. Number 2 also includes not practice bugling, in the great outdoors. 

3. Don't claim to say gay's choose to be gay, and that they were not born that way.

Remember these rules and you will do fine on this forum  .


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> *Hey Jahan your mom went to college.*
> 
> Huntingbuddy, come on, I'm disappointed in you. For as much time as you spent on this forum surely you have to know the three golden rules
> 
> ...


Help me out here brother, I don't get it.  I am a little slow sometimes. 8)


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Napolean Dynamite's brother said it to the bondoggle sales lady.  

Your mom went to college.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Gottcha!


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

What, you guys don't pratice your bugling out in the woods before and during season? :lol:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> What, you guys don't pratice your bugling out in the woods before and during season? :lol:


I do, and I make no apologies for it.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Mojo1 said:
> 
> 
> > What, you guys don't pratice your bugling out in the woods before and during season? :lol:
> ...


 :mrgreen:


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> Hey Jahan your mom went to college.
> 
> Huntingbuddy, come on, I'm disappointed in you. For as much time as you spent on this forum surely you have to know the three golden rules
> 
> ...


I will remember that 8)


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm here to help the little guy.


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