# No More Loophole



## snw_brdr10 (May 20, 2014)

Just skimmed through the 2017 proposal document. It has officially been proposed to amend the preference point system, therefore removing the loophole. 

"Preference points for the applicable species are forfeited if a person obtains a general buck deer, antlerless deer, doe pronghorn, sandhill crane, sharp-tailed grouse, greater sage grouse or swan permit through the drawing."


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Good news hope it passes

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

snw_brdr10 said:


> Just skimmed through the 2017 proposal document. It has officially been proposed to amend the preference point system, therefore removing the loophole.
> 
> "Preference points for the applicable species are forfeited if a person obtains a general buck deer, antlerless deer, doe pronghorn, sandhill crane, sharp-tailed grouse, greater sage grouse or swan permit through the drawing."


So, does that mean if you draw a Swan tag you loose your points for all species?


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## Gledeasy (Mar 23, 2014)

I guess I don't really fully understand how the draw works, but my opinion is that if you don't get your first choice you shouldn't lose points. 

If they could do a true first choice only draw before moving on and considering points for 2nd, 3rd, etc. choice I would like that a whole lot more. Maybe don't even use points for the non 1st choice draw. 

I'm fine with closing the loop hole, but I only look to hunt the same unit each year. If I don't draw it on my first choice, I would hate to lose opportunity to hunt it the following year by grabbing a leftover permit so I could simply hunt.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Good news hope it passes
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


im betting it going to pass.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

snw_brdr10 said:


> "Preference points for the applicable species are forfeited if a person obtains a general buck deer, antlerless deer, doe pronghorn, sandhill crane, sharp-tailed grouse, greater sage grouse or swan permit through the drawing."


Will "left over" permits cash in your points as those are not obtained through the drawing??


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Gledeasy said:


> I guess I don't really fully understand how the draw works, but my opinion is that if you don't get your first choice you shouldn't lose points.
> 
> If they could do a true first choice only draw before moving on and considering points for 2nd, 3rd, etc. choice I would like that a whole lot more. Maybe don't even use points for the non 1st choice draw.
> 
> I'm fine with closing the loop hole, but I only look to hunt the same unit each year. If I don't draw it on my first choice, I would hate to lose opportunity to hunt it the following year by grabbing a leftover permit so I could simply hunt.


right now that how it is. That going to change. you draw any tag in your five picks you will lose your points witch is good.So now people will only pick the areas they want to hunt and not put in for taught hunts and draw there main area.I think it going to help out a ton next year. maybe i will draw my area every year now.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

I'd rather see us do it how Wyoming does it. You only lose points if you draw your first choice, but points aren't considered in 2nd, 3rd, etc. choice drawings. That way, you can wait for your area of choice and still have a chance at areas that have tags leftover after round 1.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

That's not something I'm going to get to worked up about. Something needed to be done. I played the game so I could hunt, but closing that loop hole should clear out a lot of the growing points.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Clarq said:


> I'd rather see us do it how Wyoming does it. You only lose points if you draw your first choice, but points aren't considered in 2nd, 3rd, etc. choice drawings. That way, you can wait for your area of choice and still have a chance at areas that have tags leftover after round 1.


Its because its a "preference" type system, put in place back in 1993/4 to move people through the general units as fast as possible, to make it more fair to everyone.

The way it was designed was that people who had gone the longest without a tag, was first in line to get a tag over those who had a tag more recently. So, a person with the most points had his first, 2nd and so on choices drawn until he got a tag. It was simple and it worked fairly. The concept of turning in a tag didnt exist as the only unit with higher points was the unit everyone most wanted a tag in (southern).

When option 2 was ram'd through, it caused a unintended loophole as people could start putting in for units they really didnt want the tag for.

The only option at this point to fix the loop hole was to do what they did, get a tag loose your points. That restores the system back to its original intent. Any other change turns it into more of a LE type draw system like WY and other states, but that opens up a HUGE problem such as are you now going to let people draw for both deer and elk? Deer OR elk?

I like this solution they are proposing, its the one I've been pushing since the beginning.

-DallanC


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## Utahyounggun (Nov 5, 2014)

So say you buy a leftover tag after the draw, do you still lose all your points?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

As i understand it, the purchase of tags OTC does not cost points.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2016-11_rac_packet.pdf

Here is a link to the packet for anyone interested. The rules on page 14 of the pdf specify that preference points are not used with leftover permits.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

I'll be interested to see how this impacts leftover tag numbers. This last year, there were relatively few leftover tags after the draw, and I believe a big part of that was more people filling out more choices.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I think it's a great move to close the loophole and then not take points away from people if they pick up one of the leftover tags! It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Clarq said:


> https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2016-11_rac_packet.pdf
> 
> Here is a link to the packet for anyone interested. The rules on page 14 of the pdf specify that preference points are not used with leftover permits.


The unintended consequence of this is, people will not put in for 2nd - 5th choices, so you'll have a lot of left over tags after the draw. It will then favor whoever happens to be on a computer on a fateful morning in July at 8:00 a.m. to purchase the leftover tags.

I'd much rather see the tags taken as part of the draw process.


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## AJ13 (Apr 28, 2015)

I hope it passes. The loophole needs to be closed.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Question:. With the loophole, did you get the benefit of points when applying for options 2-5?


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

backcountry said:


> Question:. With the loophole, did you get the benefit of points when applying for options 2-5?


Yes. It is time to close the loophole.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## TimJ (May 17, 2012)

Glad to hear it. This will be beneficial for most.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Fishrmn said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> > Question:. With the loophole, did you get the benefit of points when applying for options 2-5?
> ...


Agreed. I have no sympathy for the concerns of OTC sales given the current parameters. Weighted lotteries only function equitably if the "weighted" part is consumed on success. If not then it inherently creates favoritism.

I would much rather see a call-in system based on luck and timing (for leftover tags) than one that creates point inflation that favors a handful of people. In reality, people will employ multiple strategies (people like me will go fir units with better draw odds while some will favor higher quality trophy style units) that will eventually reduce how many tags go OTC. It could take a few years but thats my prediction.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I don't think there will be that many leftover tags.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

The guys really wanting to draw a Thousands Lake Rifle tag will be happy....


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I would of liked to of seen them go to a similar system such as what Colorado has. Where every ones first choice is considered before they move on to a persons second choice. 

But the way that they are considering now will also work to move people through the system a lot faster.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Critter said:


> I would of liked to of seen them go to a similar system such as what Colorado has. Where every ones first choice is considered before they move on to a persons second choice.
> 
> But the way that they are considering now will also work to move people through the system a lot faster.


That was my choice too. Draw everyone's first choice on preference. 2nd-5th are by random- no points considered. This choice would force people to spend their points or take the chance of not drawing and it would have distributed more permits through the draw. Could be a mess with leftovers-- like it was until about a decade ago when the UDWR changed they way points were used.

Something had to change though. My kids will now have to spend the points they've gathered.....


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> I would of liked to of seen them go to a similar system such as what Colorado has. Where every ones first choice is considered before they move on to a persons second choice.


Thats the LE system, we still have it. It does nothing to help a unlucky person who has gone a long time without drawing a tag (oldtimer here comes to mind).



> But the way that they are considering now will also work to move people through the system a lot faster.


Thats the point of the preference system, those that have gone the longest without a GE tag are first in line. Its a way to even out the "fairness" of General Season tags. So that someone doesnt draw 2 or 3 tags while someone else waits for their first tag.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The problem with the current system was that if hunter A had 10 points all of his choices 1-5 were considered before any of hunter B's choices were considered if he had fewer than 10 points. So hunter A could draw his 5th choice before hunter B could draw his first choice for the same unit. While this may of not been the intended purpose of the way that they designed it to work it is the way that it did. 

Now Colorado's preference system if hunter A had 10 points and hunter B had 2 points the only draw that the points would come into play are the first choice picks. Picks 2-4 are a random draw. So if hunter A has unit XYZ as his 4th choice and hunter B had unit XYZ as his first choice then hunter B would draw that tag before hunter A. 

It wasn't complicated but Utah's DOW managed to screw up a simple operation.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Any other change turns it into more of a LE type draw system like WY and other states, but that opens up a HUGE problem such as are you now going to let people draw for both deer and elk? Deer OR elk?
> 
> I like this solution they are proposing, its the one I've been pushing since the beginning.
> 
> -DallanC


Just for clarification, I didn't mean that we should combine the general and LE stuff into one draw (I see why it could be interpreted like that, though). As long as the general and LE draws remain separate, we won't see any of those HUGE problems regarding which species everyone can apply for.

I see what you're saying about the process becoming more "LE" if it's like Wyoming, and I guess I agree. The problem I have with the system that will emerge is the leftover tag situation - there's going to be a mad rush for leftovers as soon as they open up. We'll have the same problems we had this year with website issues, etc, but on a bigger scale since more tags will go undrawn on the first pass.

Rather than see the mad rush, I think it would be good if there were some way anyone with interest could get entered into a drawing for the leftover tags. That's where I see merit in Wyoming's system.

I don't know, maybe some sort of "leftover" choice option could be implemented. It wouldn't at all be considered during the preference point draw, but if there are tags remaining after the preference point draw for the option you selected in your "leftover" choice, you could be put in and drawn without losing points.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in-utah/hunting-permits/684-how-bonus-and-preference-points-work

So I guess what will change is that any choice when fulfilled will take up all the accumulated points.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

brisket said:


> The unintended consequence of this is, people will not put in for 2nd - 5th choices, so you'll have a lot of left over tags after the draw. It will then favor whoever happens to be on a computer on a fateful morning in July at 8:00 a.m. to purchase the leftover tags.
> 
> I'd much rather see the tags taken as part of the draw process.


... note to self: be on my computer in July when leftover tags are released.

Marking my calendar now.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I hunt the same GS area every year, it isn't overly desired.. but its my #1. There are guys who have 5 points holding out for a premium general unit (what is that, really!) that will draw it before me, EVERY SINGLE YEAR. When you need 2-3 points to rifle hunt a basic unit, as your first choice, when guys draw it on their 4th... something is wrong. And then, they do it again next year lol. Still ahead of you but have hunted your #1 choice a few years in a row. They are almost guaranteed one of their choices. Most I have seen draw their second or third choice every time, every year. Its crazy. 


I imagine it will be like Elk. OTC does not count. With Cow elk, you can be unsuccessful in the draw, go buy a control tag, and private lands tag, and keep your points. So I imagine that will be the same. Aside from making these few who exposed the loophole early on actually have to commit to an area, it will help a lot of the old timers who just want to hunt their plain jane unit. If you are an archery hunter, I foresee plenty of OTC opportunity too...


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

I am kind of shocked the word 'Butt-Plug' was not used in this thread. 

I am neither for against the change. Just do whatever and be done with it.


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## Gledeasy (Mar 23, 2014)

Critter said:


> The problem with the current system was that if hunter A had 10 points all of his choices 1-5 were considered before any of hunter B's choices were considered if he had fewer than 10 points. So hunter A could draw his 5th choice before hunter B could draw his first choice for the same unit. While this may of not been the intended purpose of the way that they designed it to work it is the way that it did.
> 
> Now Colorado's preference system if hunter A had 10 points and hunter B had 2 points the only draw that the points would come into play are the first choice picks. Picks 2-4 are a random draw. So if hunter A has unit XYZ as his 4th choice and hunter B had unit XYZ as his first choice then hunter B would draw that tag before hunter A.
> 
> It wasn't complicated but Utah's DOW managed to screw up a simple operation.


This is kind of what I was implying as far as what I'd like to see.

I have one unit I like to hunt, but if I don't draw it I still want a chance to hunt with out implicating my opportunity to hunt "my" unit the following year.


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## ceedub (Oct 25, 2016)

That's too bad. I never looked at it as a loophole, it was available to everyone, it was more like a tax deduction. If you don't take advantage of it that's your fault.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

If u draw a choice u made. 
U should loose your points...........period. 

I'm tired of seeing people draw 3 or 4th choice, while other people don't 
draw the unit for their first choice. 

Just my opinion.


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## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

I'm tired of people that aren't smart enough to read and understand the proclamation whining about a "loophole" that they aren't smart enough to use. Now, rather than using the "loophole", they are hell bent on ruining a good thing. Good grief!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

elkantlers said:


> I'm tired of people that aren't smart enough to read and understand the proclamation whining about a "loophole" that they aren't smart enough to use. Now, rather than using the "loophole", they are hell bent on ruining a good thing. Good grief!


It'll be simple no more loop hole.

From what it sounds like all the griping is coming from those that are gaming the system even if it is the way that it works. Now they will have to make a choice of weather to hunt or collect points.


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## Rspeters (Apr 4, 2013)

I'm glad they're closing this loophole. The problem we had was people who use the loophole would hunt every year, while people who didn't use the loophole may take a lot longer to draw their area than it should (because their tags were going to those using the loophole).


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## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm somewhat surprised the dwr would even recommend this without some other options, but i suppose anything for the vocal board member. There are other ways to close the "loophole" without going to something this drastic. I hope Utahns like lots of leftovers because the fridge is about to get full.


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## ceedub (Oct 25, 2016)

So intent is an issue? 

Are you a loopholer if you just happen to draw your second choice?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I think the change will be good in the long run.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

Goob, do you use the loophole?


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## al3xand3rdgr8 (May 17, 2016)

I know a lot of people liked the loop hole and thought it was a fair game but something needed to change for people like myself with 3 points (I learned of the loophole late)that haven't gotten tags for units that we used to get tags for every year or at least every other year. Because of people with an excessive amount of points. I'm glad they have done something rather than letting people keep accumulating points. 

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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

I never had the chance to use it cause I got into dedicated hunter the year I was gonna use it. That being said I really hope this passes. it's screwing a lot of people out of tags and isn't a very fair system. the people that actually want to hunt thousand lakes are going to be ecstatic!!


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## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

All this for 3%? Raising your first choice success from 54 to 57%? Kinda like Congress; spending a lot of time and effort on something that is not going to improve the situation of the whole but placates the vocal ones

What's next? You drew an OIL so now you should not be able to apply for another species the rest of your life? Guarantee there will be something to complain about next year........and the typical Utah politics ( Good Ol Boy network) will run it's course


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## ceedub (Oct 25, 2016)

How about the Deticated hunter loophole? 

12 tags to one guy over 4 years. 

Fact is if you didn't get to hunt it wasn't because of a loophole. It because you refused to explore other options. 

I'll hunt every year with or without preference points carrying over.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Honestly I don't know how the system is fair now, my son drew his second choice for the same area that I had chosen as my first choice and I didn't draw. It's weird to think my first choice wasn't drawn before his second choice. This is what should be fixed all first choice should be drawn first. 
Also, I place my first 3 choices for the same area just different weapons. Which is why I don't think there will be many leftover tags. I would be fine if my second choice was drawn and points taken away because I'm still hunting in my preferred area.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

they do cap the dedicated hunter tags. To many people switch you may be sitting out too.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

Participation trophies all around


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## ceedub (Oct 25, 2016)

Brookie, you may be a victim of the youth loophole.


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

ceedub said:


> How about the Deticated hunter loophole?
> 
> 12 tags to one guy over 4 years.
> 
> ...


9 tags over 3 years. you can only kill 2 deer. Plus I give up 33 hours of my own time to service projects. No loophole there. People jumping to the front of a line due to a system that needs tweaking is a loophole. It was available to use and that's fine. my cousin used it this year. I have no gripes about using it while it's available. but, it doesn't change my opinion that it needs to be changed.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

6 pages and I'm not sure half of the people that have responded actually know what the problem is and how the problem can be fixed. 

The problem was guys were drawing their 2nd choice areas before guys with less points drew their first choice of the same area and the guys that drew their second choice were keeping their points.

It's not rocket science people! The fix is draw all first round choices first according to your points. If there are left over tags in other areas and you choose to hunt them as a second round choice, your second round should be drawn with a random draw on equal playing field for all. If there are still left over permits after then second round choice it should go first come first serve. Second and third choice drawn areas shouldn't require you to loose your points!

Having kids draw before you isn't a problem! A certain percentage of tags per unit are for kids under a certain age. These tags should be drawn in the same order I presented above. However if they go unfilled after second choice the remaining tags should be put back into adult tags for first come basis. 

Dedicate isn't a loop hole! If you want that perk get in line! 

Bonus point "Butt Plug" was a term I alone invented and it doesn't apply to this problem because this problem is with preference points! This problem is more like preference point fubar.

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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

The principle I care about is simple: if your success is based upon points you lose them, if not you keep them. 

The current system is neither simple or equitable, which should be hallmarks of any public resource allocation.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

For everybody's reference, this is an excerpt from the Statement of Work the DWR currently has contracted with Systems Consultants out of Fallon NV (originally posted by elkfromabove):
1) A computer generated random number is drawn for each preference point and another for the application. The lowest number drawn is retained and the others are discarded, leaving the applicant with only one number. That's the number used in the drawing.
2) A permit quota is assigned for each general unit.
3) Applications are divided three times... first into resident/non-resident, second into weapon classes (rifle/muzzy/archery), and third into Lifetime/Dedicated Hunter/Youth/General. 
4) The first evaluation/draw is for Lifetime applications. Lifetime applicants get their first choice with no limit per unit.
5) The second evaluation/draw is for Dedicated Hunter applications. The Dedicated Hunter quota is calculated for each unit by taking 15% of the remaining permits. Beginning with applications with the greatest number of dedicated hunter preference points and the lowest draw number and continuing in sequence the first choice for a Dedicated Hunter Certificate of Registration (COR) is considered. If a COR is available for the 1st choice, the COR(s) is awarded. If no CORs are available, the application is skipped and the 1st choice of the next application is considered. Once all of the first choices have been considered within that preference point group the 2nd choices are considered in the same manner. This process continues through the 5th choice and when all applications in this preference point group has been considered. The next highest preference point group is then evaluated in the same manner and this continues until all DH applications are considered. Any DH who doesn't draw a permit will be awarded a DH preference point. 
6) The third evaluation is for the Youth and it is done the same way as the Dedicated Hunter draw. However, youth not receiving a permit from this Youth draw will not receive a preference point, but will be given a new set random numbers and will be put into the general draw.
7) The fourth and final draw is for the general public and is conducted the same way as the previous two draws, but with preference points awarded for applicants who are unsuccessful on the their first choice, even if they draw a permit on another choice.

Under the current system I don't see guys with higher points drawing their second choice over the first choice of a guy with fewer points as a problem... because that's exactly how it is designed to function. Whether that was the intent at the outset by those who crafted it or unintended consequences I'll never know.

I have no problem with whatever method or option or whatever system the state decides to use. I will learn it, adapt where I need to, and hunt when and where I can.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

derekp1999 said:


> Under the current system I don't see guys with higher points drawing their second choice over the first choice of a guy with fewer points as a problem... because that's exactly how it is designed to function. Whether that was the intent at the outset by those who crafted it or unintended consequences I'll never know.


+100

The "loophole" was inadvertently introduced when Option2 was hastily implemented creating the micro units, couple that with the dedicated hunter fiasco making 1000k lakes so hard to draw... it was inevitable.

I'm glad to see it changed, it restores the system to its original intent of "fairness".

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I chuckled out loud when someone mentioned how "drastic" of a change this is. You draw a tag and lose your points. That is not "drastic." That is how preference point systems work. 

Several years ago I did not realize that the deer and antlerless preference point systems worked differently. I put in as a group for a cow tag with my brothers when I had 3 points and they had zero. We ended up drawing our 5th choice, which we could have bought over the counter, and I lost my points. My bad for not knowing the system, but Utah has along the way had major issues with inconsistencies in the draw system. This is another positive step in the right direction to fixing those things. 

I like the proposal, and will be asking my RAC and also the WB members to approve the change. If you draw a tag, you should lose your points. That is how application drawings should work.


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