# Deseret Land and Livestock



## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

I received the following email from Ty Land at Deseret Land and Livestock....

_ATTENTION HUNTERS: the pronghorn went through a very rough winter. It was long and cold and they didn't winter well. We typically have 500-700 total pronghorn on the ranch. At the time of sending this email we have a total of 30 pronghorn on the ranch that includes all bucks and does. We tried to work with the UDWR to shut down the hunt for this year because of the extremely low numbers but the tags have still been issued. We want to be completely honest with you and let you make an informed decision. You can keep your tags as normal and come and do the hunt in September of the select dates. Or you can surrender your tags through the UDWR and get your points and possibly your money back. _

Thoughts?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Brutal. I put in for that this year (namely because I had enough guaranteed hunts I didn't want all my eggs in one basket)

Sucks for those who would have put in elsewhere, and another DING on point creep for those who turn tags in.

I love DLL, great group, but I have to ask - Are they sending the same to those who pay money? If they wanted to cancel the hunt, will they refrain from sales to grow numbers?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That's rough I have however seen the DOW close a hunt after the tags have gone out, issuing refunds to the tag holders.

The most recent one that I remember was for a antler less antelope hunt down on the Parker Mountains a few years ago 

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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

They shut down the buck hunt half way through the season in 2010 on the Parker. That was the same year they closed the doe hunt as well


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

2litl2l8 said:


> Thoughts?


Thoughts? Yes, many. You have an operator basically telling you that your chances of seeing an antelope, let alone killing one, are going to be dismal. Looking at last year's odds, I'm guessing it took 5, maybe 6 points to draw that tag this year.

Is it worth it to burn 5-6 points to get a chance to drive around Deseret and probably not see antelope? I would say no. With that email, I'd be turning my tag in, but they aren't my tags, so each hunter will have to decide for him/herself.

Pretty stand up thing to do to give everyone a heads up IMO. I've often come on this forum and said I think DLL runs a good operation for state hunters, and to me, this is another exhibit of that.


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## tander123 (Sep 21, 2007)

That’s the only tag I drew this year. Dang. I’ll be turning mine in. 


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> I love DLL, great group, but I have to ask - Are they sending the same to those who pay money? Or is there enough Pronghorn for them?


I'm not even sure that matters. I get what you're saying, and I think it's a fair question, but as the CWMU operator, they could let all their paying clients come in and hunt before and set the state draw season after they are all done and simply not worry about notifying the state draw hunters. If they were only concerned about how this impacted the purchased tags, they could have mitigated that without any concern for the state draw hunter. My guess is the warning is sincere for the experience of the hunters and not motivated by other factors. That's just my guess though.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

My thought. Woah what?? I agree with vanilla - that was a stand up thing to do on their part and I hate it for the tag holders. 

Wow down to 30 from 500-700 animals though? Are they saying that the animals suffered 95% winter kill on the ranch or do they migrate somewhere else during rough winters and take their time heading back? I was highly considering this hunt next year with my daughter as we should have enough points. Maybe not after this though. 


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Well put Vanillabean. 

One great thing about pronghorn is that they typically rebound much faster than deer or elk after a population crash once conditions are more favorable.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

3arabians said:


> I was highly considering this hunt next year with my daughter as we should have enough points. Maybe not after this though.


Good thing is you don't have to make that decision now. And an email to the operator next February likely will get you a lot info than this to help you decide.


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## Mtngoat690 (Oct 29, 2014)

Just my opinion, I would turn the tag in. Two times I've been in a similar situation. The first time was on deseret. I was told by the operator the winter was brutal on the antelope and the bucks that made it through had stunted horn growth. I was up there several years assisting others and thought they were exaggerating the conditions, but soon found out it was no joke. 
I took the chance and paid for it. Don't get me wrong, I had a good time, but it was a tough hunt. I shot the only mature buck I seen and that was on the last day of the hunt. I actually felt a sense of irresponsibility upon harvesting.
My second experience was also on a cwmu. I was asked by the operator of I could wait until after the first week to allow the bucks hunters a chance to harvest before the two doe hunters went in. I agreed and in exchange, I was offered additional days to hunt. About 2 days before I was to go up to hunt, I got a call saying there were no antelope on the property. The operator said I could come hunt or they could watch and let me know if/when they seen antelope on the property. Needless to say, the season expired and the antelope never returned. I contacted the division of wildlife and was told (understandably) they or the landowners have no control over the animals utilizing the property and I was out of luck.
I don't believe desert has any reason to be dishonest on this issue. As mentioned, my vote is turn it in.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

So if DLL got hit this bad what about the Rich/Cache hunt? My granddaughter drew a tag for that area this year. I haven't had a chance to get up there to look around.

I would hope the DWR steps up and lets people know.


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree that it sounds reasonable. However, I'm curious why the notification didn't come from UDWR--the agency who issued the tag, rather than the operator.


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## 4x4 Bronco (Sep 7, 2007)

I think Ty is a decent dude. If he sent this email it was likely for your benefit. I’d turn it in if it was me. Bummer for those the drew.


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## flyfisher20 (Aug 5, 2011)

Knowing the Lands personally, I would venture that this was a sincere notification of the current state of the animals. Bummer for those that did draw the tag.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> I'm not even sure that matters. I get what you're saying, and I think it's a fair question, but as the CWMU operator, they could let all their paying clients come in and hunt before and set the state draw season after they are all done and simply not worry about notifying the state draw hunters. If they were only concerned about how this impacted the purchased tags, they could have mitigated that without any concern for the state draw hunter. My guess is the warning is sincere for the experience of the hunters and not motivated by other factors. That's just my guess though.


I mean- if the winter was hard and they asked the state to shut it down, I would hope that meant their private hunts as well.

They are a great group and care about long term health, so I would think they would want to avoid harvest all together this year. Tag sales this year aren't worth the risk of decimating their entire herd.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Thoughts?

I think that email shows you how much the Lands care about the wildlife on DLL and the success of the public hunter. I lived and worked on DLL for nearly two years and the Lands are first class people. I also still have lots of contacts with individuals on DLL and the ranch got pounded this past winter. I think this is a very proactive approach from Tom and his crew, instead of waiting on the DNR to send out notifying emails.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

CPAjeff said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> I think that email shows you how much the Lands care about the wildlife on DLL and the success of the public hunter. I lived and worked on DLL for nearly two years and the Lands are first class people. I also still have lots of contacts with individuals on DLL and the ranch got pounded this past winter. I think this is a very proactive approach from Tom and his crew, instead of waiting on the DNR to send out notifying emails.


It's crazy the DWR wouldn't cancel the hunt. Goes to show you how much biology and true conservation means at those meetings. If a land steward as good as DLL comes and says the animals took a beating, we need to give them a year, and you wave that off.... well, it's not a surprise is it?


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

I would reach out to them a few days before the deadline of turning your tag back in and check out the situation then. 

Might just be a migration pattern change and not a 95% population decrease like 3arabians pointed out. Highly unlikely in my opinion.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

prumpf said:


> Might just be a migration pattern change and not a 95% population decrease like 3arabians pointed out. Highly unlikely in my opinion.


Umm no. The pronghorn don't migrate off there, from firsthand accounts, there was a large winter kill this year.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Interesting. We drove thru there a couple months ago and saw 150-200 antelope on DLL or within 100 yards of DLL. That was from the highway. Definitely a possibility they moved off since then. I talked with the biologist from across the boarder in WY and he said the winterkill on pronghorn in the area wasn't that bad. 

In the end- it is good they are warning hunters if there is a potential issue. 

..


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

CPAjeff said:


> prumpf said:
> 
> 
> > Might just be a migration pattern change and not a 95% population decrease like 3arabians pointed out. Highly unlikely in my opinion.
> ...


I agree on a large winter kill this last season. But 650ish dead and 30 alive? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there might be another factor?!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

prumpf said:


> I agree on a large winter kill this last season. But 650ish dead and 30 alive? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there might be another factor?!


Just my opinion but the one factor is the rough winter. Animals tend to move away when conditions are bad. It may not be that 600+ animals were killed by the rough winter but they will certainly move to greener pastures when necessary. Sometimes it will take a while before they migrate back.

Back in 07 we had that very rough winter and my friend's ranch in Gunnison got an influx of deer and elk like he had never seen in his life. He grew up on that land and says he had never seen numbers like that. Where they came from was obvious what they came for was also obvious. The DWR came out to the ranch and dropped those feed pellets all over the place to keep them from starving.

DLL letting people know of the situation shows great stewardship and genuine concern for the land and wildlife. Kudos to them.


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

MadHunter said:


> prumpf said:
> 
> 
> > I agree on a large winter kill this last season. But 650ish dead and 30 alive? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there might be another factor?!
> ...


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

I literally flipped a coin on if I should put in for DLL or another certain unit. The other unit won, so I put in for it and drew the tag. I am really glad I did from hearing this. It's to bad that DLL lost this many animals. That is a huge loss. How many years do you think it's going to take to recover? Good for them on being so informative. That sucks to wait so long to draw that tag and then have to hear this. best of luck.


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## Brian O (Jul 14, 2019)

I was successful with a buck tag and received the same message from DLL. I called the DWR biologist that has that area and his count from a recent aerial survey was much higher than what DLL is saying. He said that numbers were down considerably and that he would recommend that those who have doe tags turn them back. I'm still undecided as to what I am going to do, but the I agree that the question needs to be asked of DLL is how they will handle the paying clients.


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## tander123 (Sep 21, 2007)

When is the deadline to turn tags back in? This is the only tag I drew this year and will more than likely turn it in.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Brian O said:


> I was successful with a buck tag and received the same message from DLL. I called the DWR biologist that has that area and his count from a recent aerial survey was much higher than what DLL is saying. He said that numbers were down considerably and that he would recommend that those who have doe tags turn them back. I'm still undecided as to what I am going to do, but the I agree that the question needs to be asked of DLL is how they will handle the paying clients.


Did you draw on luck or are you max points? That might determine my thinking.


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## tander123 (Sep 21, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Did you draw on luck or are you max points? That might determine my thinking.


Max points

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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Brian O said:


> I'm still undecided as to what I am going to do, but the I agree that the question needs to be asked of DLL is how they will handle the paying clients.


The paying clients will do exactly what DLL tells them to do. If Tom sent an email out stating the current herd conditions of the ranch to all the public hunters, that same email made its way to all the paying clients. They, being those paying clients, have a long term interest in hunting at DLL - messing up their future hunting opportunities for a buck antelope is something that none of them will do.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

tander123 said:


> Max points
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Turn her back in and enjoy the hunt next season :smile:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It seems like there is an inherent distrust over the situation when there really doesn’t need to be. I’m sure every single pronghorn tag holder has been made well aware of the situation, whether a state draw or hunting lease holder. Why would they want their lessees to be in the dark then have a poor experience? That is where Wild Country Outfitters makes money. I have to assume they have told the lease holders the same thing, because that makes logical sense from a business standpoint. Some of them might even have had personal eyeball view of the situation already. They will know just like the state hunters now knows all about Wild Country Outfitter’s view of the pronghorn situation on DLL. 

Now it’s up to the hunters what they do with that information. If you want to still go hunt, then you have that option. If you want to heed the warning and not take a chance at burning the points and not seeing animals, then turn it back in and wait until next year. It kind of sucks to have to make that decision, I get it. But at least they’re all getting the info to make it.


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## tander123 (Sep 21, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> It seems like there is an inherent distrust over the situation when there really doesn't need to be. I'm sure every single pronghorn tag holder has been made well aware of the situation, whether a state draw or hunting lease holder. Why would they want their lessees to be in the dark then have a poor experience? That is where Wild Country Outfitters makes money. I have to assume they have told the lease holders the same thing, because that makes logical sense from a business standpoint. Some of them might even have had personal eyeball view of the situation already. They will know just like the state hunters now knows all about Wild Country Outfitter's view of the pronghorn situation on DLL.
> 
> Now it's up to the hunters what they do with that information. If you want to still go hunt, then you have that option. If you want to heed the warning and not take a chance at burning the points and not seeing animals, then turn it back in and wait until next year. It kind of sucks to have to make that decision, I get it. But at least they're all getting the info to make it.


In my case, I have not received the email but found out about this from this board.

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting. Maybe they picked only every 3rd hunter on their list to dissuade from coming to shoot the king's antelope? :grin:

Probably just an oversight. I'd suggest reaching out to the operator. Give them a call and talk to them. See what they tell you, then make an informed decision on your hunt.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> It seems like there is an inherent distrust over the situation when there really doesn't need to be. I'm sure every single pronghorn tag holder has been made well aware of the situation, whether a state draw or hunting lease holder. Why would they want their lessees to be in the dark then have a poor experience? That is where Wild Country Outfitters makes money. I have to assume they have told the lease holders the same thing, because that makes logical sense from a business standpoint. Some of them might even have had personal eyeball view of the situation already. They will know just like the state hunters now knows all about Wild Country Outfitter's view of the pronghorn situation on DLL.
> 
> Now it's up to the hunters what they do with that information. If you want to still go hunt, then you have that option. If you want to heed the warning and not take a chance at burning the points and not seeing animals, then turn it back in and wait until next year. It kind of sucks to have to make that decision, I get it. But at least they're all getting the info to make it.


I distrust the DWR judgement more than DLL.

Wild Country wants to run a long-term sustainable operation. My first question was worded wrong- I was just curious if they pushed to cancel the hunt, if they were also choosing not to sell tags this year now that the hunt is on. I would assume not, but one never knows.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

For what it’s worth, I drove by DLL this morning and from Evanston to Bear Lake we saw zero antelope. Didn’t stop at all though, so we could have missed some. It sure looks nice and green, though.


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## tander123 (Sep 21, 2007)

brisket said:


> For what it's worth, I drove by DLL this morning and from Evanston to Bear Lake we saw zero antelope. Didn't stop at all though, so we could have missed some. It sure looks nice and green, though.


Drove the same route on Sunday. Only saw antelope on the east side of the road. Non on DLL

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## deljoshua (Jul 29, 2013)

I don’t have a lot of experience with anybody on DLL but the little I have had they were very cordial and professional even though they didn’t have to be. They were even helpful when most would not have been. Can’t say the same for other operators.


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