# How do I know if they have eaten pesticides?



## Lonetree

Pesticides 101. If you see them eat pesticides, then you know they have eaten them. This method of discerning this is the simplest, as it does not require any "special" powers.

We'll start with a picture from a few hours ago.









Nice symmetry! They love to feed in those treated power line right of ways, note the treated and defoliated trees in the background. Did you know the same gene that governs under bites, is also responsible for left/right fore/aft symmetry?

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Another two from a few hours ago.


















These guys just fed on the side of a treated roadway. Again nice symmetry huh?. That left antler is actually sporting velvet from last year. Note the large "cactus" base. He has an under bite as well, but I did not get a pic with the bad light. 
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From a few days ago









This doe is picking around through this grass specifically targeting something, but what?










Oh, I should have known.
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From last night









This grouse ^ was feeding a few feet from here, on the side of the road.










Right here ^ were the vegetation has been sprayed with herbicides.
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Another from a few hours ago









Orphaned dizzy skunks like to roll in the treated stuff. Eat it? I don't know, but this guy was in the same place doing the same thing 24 hours earlier.
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From a week ago









These guys are feeding on a treated pipeline right of way, headed to a mag-chloride lick. The guy on the right has some interesting junk, and his G1s point the wrong way. He has a white ear tag from Hardware, which might explain some of this that I saw last winter http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/31-hardware-ranch-ut/
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From a few hours ago









This year the elk have been loving the treated power line right of ways. They especially love the spot treated stuff. We know they like aspens, but aspens with Garlon, mmmmmmm! who wants more?
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From last week.









This raggedy deer only has a few inches of growth, is stiff legged, and has a severe cough. And yes, he is feeding on a power line right of way.
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From a week ago

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Very young deer with some nice growth, which is good right? Except that he is feeding on a treated roadside and his testicles are either partially undescended, or atrophied. Well, that explains the growth. When he does not breed they will probably have an explanation like "he's saving it up for a better time".
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And that's how you know if they have been exposed to pesticides, no surveys, or special powers needed. Just sixth grade observational life science.

And we did not even cover porcupines and rabbits.


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## Lonetree

*More Pesticides*

From last night:


















More nice symmetry right? This one was just feeding on treated vegetation on the roadside.

So Why does symmetry matter? What is important here is that this lack of symmetry is not isolated. It is part of a pattern of a group of deer, that all frequent the same stretch of highway.

Here is what brings us to this pattern:

The deer, moose, elk, sheep, antelope, rabbits, etc. eat pesticides, which starts a chain reaction. One of the biological affects of ingestion of particular herbicides along this road is a condition called metabolic acidosis. http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/safety/healthcare/handbook/Chap09.pdf This condition causes a lot of things, one of which is the disruption of thyroid: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9176376

This disruption of the thyroid then affects the signalling of a molecule called Sonic Hedgehog gene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_hedgehog

Sonic hedge hog is governed by thyroid function, and in turn governs cranial-facial development, incisor development, limb development, and left/right and fore/aft developmental morphogenesis. It reads and implements the DNA blue print. The accuracy of this being governed by other forces like the thyroid.

So in the real world, in the field, this can play out as under bites as well as antler abnormalities.

Another from last night, and a few nights before:


















This one does not like to cooperate for the camera. But I always know where to find him. He is usually not far from his magnesium lick.

One of his Mag licks:









Another deer on a mag lick last night:









So what does deer licking magnesium out of the dirt have to do with pesticide exposure?

It comes back to the metabolic acidosis induced by the herbicides the deer have been eating. The metabolic acidosis causes renal magnesium wasting, and induces hypomagnesemia. Magnesium is an alkaline cation, which has been shown to reverse the affects of metabolic acidosis: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/2038394-overview

So by eating the magnesium, the deer are both replacing the lost magnesium, and mitigating the affects of their herbicide exposure. This could explain why some deer and antelope seem to target high alkaline plants, with no apparent side affects.

Apparently not all deer know about their need for magnesium, so UDOT has launched a new public awareness campaign to let more effected deer know about the benefits of alkaline cations.



















And even more good news, UDWR is conducting a study of collared deer in the area, so they should have this figured out pretty quick.


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## Lonetree

And we did not even get to cover the implications this has on Buck to doe ratios......


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## Springville Shooter

I think you should shoot the uncooperative nag licker buck. He looks pretty good.-----SS


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## Mr.CheddarNut

This is actually intriguing and fascinating. I would definitely like to learn more. I have four bucks in my back yard that (urban deer) that likely are exposed to a broad range of herbicides and pesticides and while fun to see and watch they too are largely non symmetrical. I have pics but they are not the best.

Cheddar


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## utahgolf

I need to hunt powerline area's from now on!


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## Lonetree

Springville Shooter said:


> I think you should shoot the uncooperative nag licker buck. He looks pretty good.-----SS


He is real nice, but not in my unit. If I put in the kind of time scouting I do on these units, on the unit I drew, I would probably do a lot better come October.


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## Lonetree

utahgolf said:


> I need to hunt powerline area's from now on!


Get on it while you can. I was talking to some guys recently that hunted a Northern Utah pipeline for elk back in the late '80s and early '90s. They used the right of way to get to places they could not before, a few years after it was built, the elk and deer were all over it, jacked up antlers and all. They said it was awesome..........until it crashed, everywhere.

For those that were out in the field from ~'89-'94 you know what I'm talking about when it comes to deformed antlers and cactus bucks. They were all over many places, along with the higher buck to doe ratios.


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## Lonetree

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> This is actually intriguing and fascinating. I would definitely like to learn more. I have four bucks in my back yard that (urban deer) that likely are exposed to a broad range of herbicides and pesticides and while fun to see and watch they too are largely non symmetrical. I have pics but they are not the best.
> 
> Cheddar


Submit those pictures here: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/photo-contest/ We gave away over $2000 in gear for last years submissions.

Depending on where, and what they look like, it would be interesting to see if they are drawn to magnesium. So far the draw to mag appears to only be associated with herbicide exposure. Not all deer are interested in it, it tastes nasty and bitter, and leaves an almost burning sensation. Yes I ate some. Deer that are exposed on road sides will have a ready supply, because the roads that get sprayed with herbicides, also get sprayed with magnesium chloride in the winter. This is of course not the case with a lot of other avenues of exposure.

PM me if you want some mag-chloride to put out. You have to mix it into some soil, or let it "melt" in for awhile before the deer can really utilize it. If you just put it out in a pile, they will go for it, but it is too strong straight, and they can't really eat it. Once it is diluted down some, they will start to eat the dirt with the mag in it.










That's what is going on in this picture^. That spot had magnesium chloride applied to it about 2 weeks ago by me. Now deer are pawing at it and eating the mag coated dirt.

In my testing last year, I used magnesium chloride that was from the Great Salt Lake, which is where UDOT would be getting theirs as well. A researcher in Wyoming tested several of these road side licks in other states(their mag would come from the GSL as well), and found high concentrations of selenium. The GSL has high levels of selenium, so it was proposed that it was selenium they were after, not magnesium. This is surely part of it, but this year I sourced magnesium chloride form the Dead Sea, which has much lower levels of selenium because of the form and processing, and the results are the same. I also created "virgin" licks with this mag, to further demonstrate the draw is for magnesium, and not other minerals. Deer will preferentially go for selenium salt as well, but this demonstrates a separate and unique draw to magnesium, not documented or recognized before now.


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## Lonetree

I'm no photographer, and my camera does not like shooting at dusk, but here is some more.

More Asymmetry. Left side is folding in at the top. from a week or so ago.









This one is coming off of a magnesium lick. I watched him eat treated vegetation at the same place moose were drawn to last year. Taken about 2 weeks ago.









The tree in the background^ just to the right of the sign in the picture, is the same treated tree the moose below was feeding on last year.









This one is on a magnesium lick, just off of a pipeline right of way. A week or so ago.









He has all the makings to end up looking like the right side of the one below. Which came off a mountain with massive habitat treatments on either side of it.









I still have thousands of trail camera pictures from last year that I have not looked at closely. Here is one that we just found from last year. We were not looking at antlers so much as we were counting hits on magnesium verses salt. He has a misplaced pedicle and severely deformed antler. The white pile is mag-chloride, this is before I knew it was too strong when its straight.









The one below has big "cactus" bases with very small protrusions coming through them.


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## DallanC

Last year on the Beaver we camped to scout for my wifes Mt Goat hunt. There were a crazy number of mis-shapen bucks like this running around, like over 1 dozen within a mile or so of our camp that I could see. All goofy 1x2's.

There is NO powerlines, herbicides, pesticides in use anywhere near that area where we were.


-DallanC


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## Jedidiah

WHERE'S THIS AT??

Hey maybe the coughing is intentional, could be they're trying to get their testicles to descend?


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## Lonetree

DallanC said:


> Last year on the Beaver we camped to scout for my wifes Mt Goat hunt. There were a crazy number of mis-shapen bucks like this running around, like over 1 dozen within a mile or so of our camp that I could see. All goofy 1x2's.
> 
> There is NO powerlines, herbicides, pesticides in use anywhere near that area where we were.
> 
> -DallanC


Dallen, there is herbicides being used, you just have to know what to look for. It does not need to be power line right of ways, or pipeline right of ways, or highways. It can be fires, and "habitat improvements" of both sage brush or cedars.

In the case of fires, there are a lot of herbicides that are used on areas after they burn. Because just like in the case of chaining off sage brush, or juniper, you get increased growth of grasses and forbs after these disturbances, which includes "weeds" and invasive plants.

There was a "habitat improvement" just East of Beaver between 2011 and 2014. The area surely would have had herbicides used at some point after the treatment. Especially if they were targeting cheat grass as well.

Here is the before(2011) and after (2014) This one was done once in the past as well. I added a picture of what it looked like in 1993, it was probably done a few years before that.



























Here are more "habitat improvements" just outside of Circleville. around 2006


















Another one near Circleville between 2011 and 2014


















And then we had a large fire in the heart of the Tushars in ~2010


















The entire range is ringed with habitat disturbances, and a burn area, that all tend to involve the use of large amounts of herbicides. These are just a few examples. I can take you to just about anywhere in the Western United States and show you an increase in this since about 2011. The last time this was happening on this scale was in the late 1980s, and early 1990s, when we saw all the same things, just before everything crashed.

In the case of young deer like you are seeing, it is probably congenital, meaning they were born with it. So you would need to look to the mothers, and where they winter, and what they eat. What you are describing is classic developmental disruption tied to thyroid function. Antler development is epigenetic meaning that it is influenced by external forces. Good habitat and feed gets you nice large symmetrical bucks, chemical disruption of development gets you what you were seeing. So if its not herbicides disrupting their development, what is it?


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## Lonetree

Jedidiah said:


> WHERE'S THIS AT??


Just about everywhere. Most of the photos of deer and elk in this thread are in Weber, Morgan, Cache, and Rich counties.


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## Lonetree

Another example: Bighorn sheep were transplanted to the Pilot Peak range on the Utah-Nevada border. Once the herd reached a certain size a tag was allocated every other year to Utah and Nevada. Utah would get it one year, Nevada the next. In 2013 it was decided that the herd was large enough to allow a tag every year to Utah and Nevada. But before that could be done the hunt was pulled entirely, because the sheep had come down with pneumonia, and were in decline.

Below are pictures of a fire that occurred between 2011 and 2013 on the Pilot peak range.


















I can show you places where the bighorns decline, and/or come down with pnuemonia every time their winter range is treated with herbicides.

Probably just a coincidence right?

I always hear people complain about point creep, what do you think this does to point creep? How do moose odds look lately?


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## Lonetree

Its funny how outraged hunters get when a guy poaches one elk, or a lion kills a few deer. But when an entire ecosystem is collapsed and their hunting gets cut to nothing, and someone points out what happened, and what is happening again, that brought on that theft of their hunting heritage and future, the response is quite different. 

I guess it is easier to complain with righteous indignation about things that you will never have to give any real thought, responsibility, or action to.


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## Lonetree

OK, maybe I'm wrong about the fire on the Pilot Peak range. It may be all the sage brush removal. Or I guess it could be both?

2011









2013


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## LostLouisianian

What method did you use to rule out any one of the several dozen possibilities for these perceived deformities and determine that is was solely because of herbicide ingestion?


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## Mr Muleskinner

Lost do you think that pesticides / herbicides could possibly be a benefit? Do unknown carcinogens mean that cigarettes should be smoked until the cause and affect of every known carcinogen is proven beyond refute?

You go eat some of the crap being used and see how it affects you. Maybe your teeth will fall out and your testicles will rescind while leaving a bitter taste in your mouth.

Wait a minute..............have you been eating the same shrubs already?:shock:


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## LostLouisianian

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Lost do you think that pesticides / herbicides could possibly be a benefit? Do unknown carcinogens mean that cigarettes should be smoked until the cause and affect of every known carcinogen is proven beyond refute?
> 
> You go eat some of the crap being used and see how it affects you. Maybe your teeth will fall out and your testicles will rescind while leaving a bitter taste in your mouth.
> 
> Wait a minute..............have you been eating the same shrubs already?:shock:


Instead of attacking me just simply answer the question, is that too much to ask? After all I did already debunk the Glyphosate-Avian Cholera connection with ACTUAL scientifically FACTUAL evidence. Conjecture doesn't pass scientific methods but feel free to flame away.


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## Lonetree

LostLouisianian said:


> What method did you use to rule out any one of the several dozen possibilities for these perceived deformities and determine that is was solely because of herbicide ingestion?


Why don't you conduct one of your counter "research projects" and tell us all about it.

First, they are more than just perceived deformities, they exist in the world as real tangible expressions of disrupted biogenesis. The genes of these deer are not coding correctly, and something is causing that via epigenetics.

Secondly, please explain the "several dozen" other possibilities, the biochemistry, and the genetics behind these other "possibilities". You have me so intrigued now as to what these _possibilities_ are. Start with the simplest and most obvious "Spike On One Side" research, and expand it out from there. Maybe call a few "biologists" and see what they have to mumble about it.

As usual, casting a little doubt is the best you can do, because you don't know anything about any of this, and side with the anti hunters on this faster than anyone else on this forum.


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## Lonetree

LostLouisianian said:


> Instead of attacking me just simply answer the question, is that too much to ask? After all I did already debunk the Glyphosate-Avian Cholera connection with ACTUAL scientifically FACTUAL evidence. Conjecture doesn't pass scientific methods but feel free to flame away.


You did not debunk anything, you only showed that there is not enough evidence at this time for a link between glyphosate and avian cholera. I on the other hand demonstrated a connection between glyphostate and avian botulism(you helped reinforce this case), and the US Fish and Wildlife service vindicated my original theory that those 2000+ geese did indeed die because of the use of pesticides. I said they died of pesticides, and they did, the only inaccuracy on my part was what pesticide.

BTW, considering that waterfowl are not my field of study, I hit that one pretty square.


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## LostLouisianian

Glyphosate is not a pesticide!


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## Lonetree

LostLouisianian said:


> Glyphosate is not a pesticide!


Pesticide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesticide

Yes it is, it is a herbicide and it is antimicrobial which falls under the umbrella of pesticide. You don't even know the nomenclature of the subject.


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## LostLouisianian

How can anyone debate someone with a PhD in Google. I give up you win. Everything you say is right and you're the worlds smartest wildlife expert


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## longbow

Pesticide is also a heavy metal band from Czechoslovakia. They play straightforward rock/metal, dirty licks, heavy beats and fat bass! I looked it up.


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## Lonetree

LostLouisianian said:


> How can anyone debate someone with a PhD in Google. I give up you win. Everything you say is right and you're the worlds smartest wildlife expert


Its easy when I am arguing with someone that does not even know the definition of the title of the subject.

Its like showing up to a car show and listening to you tell us how a Corvette is not a car. Whats next? Deer are not cervids? Goats are not caprines? Sorry for being able to define words, yeah you got me there, that was really good. Further more, YOU are the guy that has claimed on this forum that YOU posses degrees in wildlife biology and forestry, yet you have never been able to back that claim up. You are a farce and a fraud, and a friend of the anti hunting crowd.


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## Lonetree

longbow said:


> Pesticide is also a heavy metal band from Czechoslovakia. They play straightforward rock/metal, dirty licks, heavy beats and fat bass! I looked it up.


They might be able to help us with our wildlife problem:


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## LostLouisianian

Moderators is it acceptable to call someone names and lie about them in posts? I would hope that's not acceptable behavior and would raise a word of caution


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## Lonetree

LostLouisianian said:


> Moderators is it acceptable to call someone names and lie about them in posts? I would hope that's not acceptable behavior and would raise a word of caution


Yeah!, Lost lying about himself having degrees and calling himself a biologist is completely unacceptable, and should raise some caution amongst forum readers.

When they can't back it up, they back down and whine.


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## Lonetree

When I call you an anti hunter, it is because you endorse anti hunting concepts like the use of pesticides on wildlife, while denying their negative impacts on us as hunters. There for condoning the decline of wildlife and hunting that that causes. That is just a fact, it is not libelous. It is you being a reflexive anti hunter.


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## Lonetree

Or maybe you are talking about me saying you do not knowing anything about any of this? but I assume that is pretty self evident to everyone.


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## martymcfly73

Do you have a "recipe" for mag lick? I wouldn't mind putting some out in my area of the wasatch. They are doing a moose study currently and mineral deficiency is a cause of a few deaths.


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## Lonetree

martymcfly73 said:


> Do you have a "recipe" for mag lick? I wouldn't mind putting some out in my area of the wasatch. They are doing a moose study currently and mineral deficiency is a cause of a few deaths.


The two links take you to you some decently priced mag chloride on Ebay. The moose on the Wasatch unit have suffered specifically from copper and selenium deficiencies. Both of which are probably tied to metabolic disruption. Copper deficiencies in moose have very recently been diagnosed as non insulin dependent type II diabetes. This has been observed in other species as well. The selenium deficiencies are probably tied to thyroid dysfunction, and along with the other mineral deficiencies Utah moose have suffered, I would put money on pesticide induced metabolic acidosis as being the root cause. Metabolic acidosis has been shown to create long term mineral deficiencies, long after the acidosis itself has been corrected.

Recipe: You can put up to about 20% by weight mag-chloride into loose salt. But so far the best results I have seen is to mix it with high iron content clay(chelating). So basically some red sticky Utah dirt. Find a spot with dirt like this(the deer, elk, and moose already seek these out) and dump some mag into it. To speed things up you can add some water to wash it into the soil.

If you are going to use salt blocks, look for "Selenium 90" blocks. These contain 90 ppm selenium. It was not too many years ago that you could only get 36ppm selenium in feed salts. About 10 years ago a colleague of mine had to have special blocks made to get 60ppm selenium. But now you can get 90ppm at most feed stores. This is because the rates of weak calf syndrome in cattle has soared over the last several years, simultaneously with a huge expansion of herbicide use to clear brush. A symptom of "weak calf syndrome" is selenium deficiency. WCS is marked by still births, miscarriages, weak calves, bent front limbs, and under bites in calves. Pesticides>>>thyroid disruption(selenium deficiency connection)>>>Sonic hedgehog biogenesis disruption. Selenium supplementation helps this by restoring T4 conversion in the thyroid, there for mitigating some of the problems associated with the pesticide exposure. Or maybe it is just aliens.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-Pounds-M...030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fb807426

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pounds-Ma...980?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c919db97c


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## Lonetree

In the case of Diabetes, metabolic acidosis is probably a secondary symtom of the diabetes itself, leading to other issues: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/242975-overview

Diabetes being brought on by pesticide exposure: http://www.diabetes.org/living-with-diabetes/complications/related-conditions/agent-orange.html Yeah **** wildlife and Veterans. They keep pointing to dioxin contamination in 2,4,5-T in agent orange as being the culprit for this. And interestedly 2,4-D(used on road ways) the other half of Agent Orange has been shown to be contaminated with high levels of dioxins: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-22/four-corners-dangerous-dioxins/4833848

More on the link between diabetes and herbicides: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pesticides-cause-diabetes-what-new-study-says/


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## Lonetree

The copper magnesium connection: http://www.intechopen.com/books/dia...dent-diabetes-mellitus-treated-with-metformin

"Our results are in accordance with other authors that evinced positive correlations between plasma Cu and glycemia. [58] Once again it is proved that there is a disbalance in the copper ions in diabetes type 2 and once proved the implications of these cations in the pathogenesis and complications of diabetes."

"The increased oxidative stress in diabetes mellitus contribute to the development of diabetic macrovascular and microvascular complications through increased lipid oxidation, especially by increasing oxidation of LDL, which is a crucial step in the development of atherosclerosis. Magnesium can reduce the oxidative stress [57] and we consider that this is an important mechanism for antiatherogenic action of certain antidiabetes drugs."


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## wyogoob

longbow said:


> Pesticide is also a heavy metal band from Czechoslovakia. They play straightforward rock/metal, dirty licks, heavy beats and fat bass! I looked it up.


Everybody loves a fat bass.

.


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## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> Or maybe you are talking about me saying you do not knowing anything about any of this? but I assume that is pretty self evident to everyone.


OK LT and LL, this is an interesting and important thread. Don't ruined it with personal bickering.

I have an affected interest in this thread. I worked for a cross-country pipeline company for 30 years. Also live and work in the Wyoming gas patch and travel on hundreds of miles of mag-chloride roads in the middle of good big game country.

The disagreements are great; but how you disagree sucks.

.


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## Lonetree

wyogoob said:


> OK LT and LL, this is an interesting and important thread. Don't ruined it with personal bickering.
> 
> I have an affected interest in this thread. I worked for a cross-country pipeline company for 30 years. Also live and work in the Wyoming gas patch and travel on hundreds of miles of mag-chloride roads in the middle of good big game country.
> 
> The disagreements are great; but how you disagree sucks.
> 
> .


Just following precedent.


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## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> ........................
> 
> Diabetes being brought on by pesticide exposure: http://www.diabetes.org/living-with-diabetes/complications/related-conditions/agent-orange.html Yeah **** wildlife and Veterans. They keep pointing to dioxin contamination in 2,4,5-T in agent orange as being the culprit for this. And interestedly 2,4-D(used on road ways) the other half of Agent Orange has been shown to be contaminated with high levels of dioxins: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-22/four-corners-dangerous-dioxins/4833848
> 
> More on the link between diabetes and herbicides: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pesticides-cause-diabetes-what-new-study-says/


For years and years Agent Orange was what we all used as a defoliant; farmers, pipelines, railroads, mines, highway departments, everybody.

It's outlawed in the USA now, but if you know yer way around you can still get it.


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## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> Just following precedent.


OK....uh...hey, if you guys don't knock it off I'm gonna move this thread to the "Hunting outside of Utah" section for less exposure.

That's funny right there; I don't care who you are.

top of da page, finally.

.


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## Lonetree

wyogoob said:


> For years and years Agent Orange was what we all used as a defoliant; farmers, pipelines, railroads, mines, highway departments, everybody.
> 
> It's outlawed in the USA now, but if you know yer way around you can still get it.


2,4-D + Triclopyr= Neo-Agent Orange

Trichlopyor is 2,4,5-T with a nitrogen molecule added to the chlorine ring. This is what they did to get around the 2,4,5-T ban. Tryclopyr is sold under the trade name Garlon, and is favored as a defoliant on right of ways.

Tryclopyr









2,4,5-T









But they don't ever use this stuff in large quantities on right of ways, right?

What happens when you mix 2,4-D with Dicamba? More potent and dangerous than Agent Orange? They sure seem to have latched onto this stuff about 20 years ago..........


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## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> 2,4-D + Triclopyr= Neo-Agent Orange
> 
> Trichlopyor is 2,4,5-T with a nitrogen molecule added to the chlorine ring. This is what they did to get around the 2,4,5-T ban. Tryclopyr is sold under the trade name Garlon, and is favored as a defoliant on right of ways.
> 
> Tryclopyr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2,4,5-T
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But they don't ever use this stuff in large quantities on right of ways, right?
> 
> What happens when you mix 2,4-D with Dicamba? More potent and dangerous than Agent Orange? They sure seem to have latched onto this stuff about 20 years ago..........


I'm familiar with Garlon but I thought Dicamba was a musical intrument.

Hey, I work at chemical plants, so does that makes me a chemist?

nevermind


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## Lonetree

Goob, it is a matter of demonstrating proficiency in the subject matter, so you tell me. What do you do at the chemical plant?


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## Lonetree

To answer my own question on combining different herbicides: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174407/

"Crofton et al. (2005) presented an in-depth study of a mixture of 18 poly-halogenated hydrocarbons (2 PCDDs, 4 PCDFs, and 12 coplanar and noncoplanar PCBs) to investigate the hypothesis that their joint effect on reducing T4 levels is dose additive. Young female rats were treated for 4 days with individual mixture components, and dose-response relationships with altered T4 levels as the end point were recorded. This information was used to predict the dose-additive response to a mixture of all 18 chemicals. The mixture ratio was chosen to be proportional to the levels of the chemicals reported in breast milk, fish, and other human food sources. The dose-additivity model yielded anticipated effect doses that were higher by a factor of 2-3 than the observed responses. This deviation was statistically significant, and the joint effect of all polyhalogenated pollutants in this model can therefore be classed as synergistic. Nevertheless, the extent of underestimation of observed effects was small."

But then again, maybe it is dozens of other _possibilities_.


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## Lonetree

Latch to plate set.......


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## martymcfly73

Lonetree said:


> The two links take you to you some decently priced mag chloride on Ebay. The moose on the Wasatch unit have suffered specifically from copper and selenium deficiencies. Both of which are probably tied to metabolic disruption. Copper deficiencies in moose have very recently been diagnosed as non insulin dependent type II diabetes. This has been observed in other species as well. The selenium deficiencies are probably tied to thyroid dysfunction, and along with the other mineral deficiencies Utah moose have suffered, I would put money on pesticide induced metabolic acidosis as being the root cause. Metabolic acidosis has been shown to create long term mineral deficiencies, long after the acidosis itself has been corrected.
> 
> Recipe: You can put up to about 20% by weight mag-chloride into loose salt. But so far the best results I have seen is to mix it with high iron content clay(chelating). So basically some red sticky Utah dirt. Find a spot with dirt like this(the deer, elk, and moose already seek these out) and dump some mag into it. To speed things up you can add some water to wash it into the soil.
> 
> If you are going to use salt blocks, look for "Selenium 90" blocks. These contain 90 ppm selenium. It was not too many years ago that you could only get 36ppm selenium in feed salts. About 10 years ago a colleague of mine had to have special blocks made to get 60ppm selenium. But now you can get 90ppm at most feed stores. This is because the rates of weak calf syndrome in cattle has soared over the last several years, simultaneously with a huge expansion of herbicide use to clear brush. A symptom of "weak calf syndrome" is selenium deficiency. WCS is marked by still births, miscarriages, weak calves, bent front limbs, and under bites in calves. Pesticides>>>thyroid disruption(selenium deficiency connection)>>>Sonic hedgehog biogenesis disruption. Selenium supplementation helps this by restoring T4 conversion in the thyroid, there for mitigating some of the problems associated with the pesticide exposure. Or maybe it is just aliens.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-Pounds-M...030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fb807426
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pounds-Ma...980?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c919db97c


Nice thanks! I'll be putting some out the next couple of weeks.


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## Lonetree

Mcfly, Let us know what the results are. If you get some trail camera images, that would be cool as well. Anything weird, submit it for a chance at some gear.


----------



## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> Goob, it is a matter of demonstrating proficiency in the subject matter, so you tell me. What do you do at the chemical plant?


I'm a third-party consultant / chief inspector on new construction and plant turnarounds...oil, gas, paper, power, phosphates, trona, desalinization.

.


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## longbow

Let's try a new contest. The first one to prove the other one wrong with published facts from a reliable source gets a free Pesticide album, (the band from Czechoslovakia). The latest album cover has a trail cam picture of a wolf in Utah on it. Cool huh?


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## longbow

And yet another failed attempt to get "top-o-the-page". ****!

EDIT: Yay, I did it!!!


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## martymcfly73

Lonetree said:


> Mcfly, Let us know what the results are. If you get some trail camera images, that would be cool as well. Anything weird, submit it for a chance at some gear.


Will do.


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## Lonetree

longbow said:


> Let's try a new contest. The first one to prove the other one wrong with published facts from a reliable source gets a free Pesticide album, (the band from Czechoslovakia). The latest album cover has a trail cam picture of a wolf in Utah on it. Cool huh?


I'm going to have to pass on the album. I quite literally listen to just about everything, my Ipod will give you multiple personality disorder. "Pesticide" is not music, I do think the name is apropos.

I'll see if I can dig up some "facts from a reliable source".


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## Lonetree

wyogoob said:


> I'm a third-party consultant / chief inspector on new construction and plant turnarounds...oil, gas, paper, power, phosphates, trona, desalinization.
> 
> .


A little back story on mag chloride: I was talking to my father quite some time ago about deer possibly going after magnesium chloride on the road side. He was the one that told me how nasty mag chloride tasted(So yes I had to see for myself). He use to work in chemical plants as well, and holds US Patents in conjunction with Westinghouse on some of their chemical processes. His chemistry back ground is far broader and longer lived than mine, especially applicable chemistry. That being said, he barely grasps most of this stuff. It is some very specific chemistry, especially when it comes to the bio-chemistry. Makes me think some days I should have gone to school instead of running around in the hills. Maybe not days, more like moments....but not seriously.


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## Lonetree

Longbow, I just noticed your location, Afognak Island.

This one may be of local interest to you.
http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/26-kodiak-island-ak/


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## longbow

"Endosulfan is also a xenoestrogen-a synthetic substance that imitates or enhances the effect of estrogens-and it can act as an endocrine disruptor, causing reproductive and developmental damage in both animals and humans"

Dang you Lonetree! Now I have one more thing to worry about.


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## Lonetree

longbow said:


> "Endosulfan is also a xenoestrogen-a synthetic substance that imitates or enhances the effect of estrogens-and it can act as an endocrine disruptor, causing reproductive and developmental damage in both animals and humans"
> 
> Dang you Lonetree! Now I have one more thing to worry about.


Endosulfan is being phased out, and is probably not the concern on Kodiak. I really need to update some stuff. The key thing about Kodiak is the cactus bucks at the South West end of the Island that have been declining for about 20 years now. Same time frame as our declines.

Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge does however use Clopyralid which is known to cause cryptorchidism, which causes cactus bucks. It also has been shown to cause delayed formation of the skull, which means it affects the thyroid signalling of SSH gene. Clopyralid came into existence a few years before the cactus bucks started to show up.

The interesting part of this one is that they have been trying to figure out what is causing this for quite some time. I found the answer quite by accident, the people that applied the pesticides documented exactly what is going on. From the Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge management plan:

""Elk, goat, marten, red squirrel, muskrat, and beaver do not occur in any areas known to support invasive plants. On the other hand, field observations indicated that deer and hare have used areas that support invasive plants for foraging and, in some cases cover, including sites subjected to active management."

"Active management" in this case means spraying herbicides like Clopyralid.

I think it was Dennis Austin that made the correlation to rabbits and deer here in Utah.


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## Lonetree

From tonight:









^A funky little 2x3 on a magnesium lick.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------









^A mostly symmetrical 3x4 on the same lick. The little one actually pushes this one around.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


















This one finally cooperated a little better. He came into this lick twice, with me being fairly close. I put some magnesium in undisturbed dirt about 10 feet from his favorite spot to confirm that it is magnesium he is coming in for.

He is going to have some character. He is a little odd in that he runs with two dry does. You never see him with anything else.


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## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> Latch to plate set.......


Well, I'd like ta have a nickel for every time I heard that!

:?


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## Lonetree

wyogoob said:


> Well, I'd like ta have a nickel for every time I heard that!
> 
> :?


That's not the part you hear, see, or feel.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Lonetree I was just wondering when do you see the next collapse of our deer herd happening? And I am honestly asking you the question not in a smart ass way. The next decent winter we have, slowly we will watch populations retract, or it will be a heavy felt collapse of deer numbers throughout the state? As well as bighorn herds in the state.


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## Lonetree

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Lonetree I was just wondering when do you see the next collapse of our deer herd happening? And I am honestly asking you the question not in a smart ass way. The next decent winter we have, slowly we will watch populations retract, or it will be a heavy felt collapse of deer numbers throughout the state? As well as bighorn herds in the state.


Oh good a simple question  I was just discussing this with someone, we were trying to decide if its 1989, or 1992, maybe neither? The past being prologue, this comparison makes a difference. Do we have a comparable start point? One of the primers for the early '90s crash was all the wildfires across the west in the late '80s. This and a recovering economy into the '90s spurred a major revival and expansion of pesticide use in the FS and BLM. Along with a burgeoning export forestry industry.

This time around we saw a huge push and expansion by the FS and specifically the BLM in 2006, that barely got started. We entered the great recession in 2007/2008, and with government budgets collapsed wildlife started to look up(some of you may have noticed). Have you ever heard the saying "If things get any worse, we are going to have to ask you to stop _helping"_? Well that pretty well sums up the DWR, SITLA, the FS, and the BLM, when it comes to wildlife. So we don't see the 2006 agenda get back under way until about 2011, and then they are making up for lost time. It starts looking like the late '80s and early '90s all over again with "habitat improvements", Infrastructure maintenance and expansion(power lines/pipelines), road "maintenance" etc. Throw in some record setting fire seasons, and expanding budgets as the economy improves, and Viola! the stage is set. And we start to see the affects in the wildlife, much like we saw in the early '90s.

Winter and deer: If we get a I-70 split El-Nino winter like is being forecast, then we will see deer hit harder than normal, with little to no rebound for several years. If this winter and the following ones are mild, then it will be a slow retraction. Snow depth robs energy, but deer with disrupted thyroids are more susceptible to very cold winters, because the thyroid regulates body temperature.

Sheep: This depends on what sheep you are talking about, and what they have been exposed to. We have brought in transplanted sheep from Montana, that collapsed after the fact, in three different locations. They may have never been exposed to pesticides here in Utah. The source herd, and the two separate transplanted herds all collapsed simultaneously across multiple locations. These sheep were probably affected in Montana originally, but with cold February temps everywhere, they all declined at the same time. Not all sheep herds, just the one in Montana, and the ones here in Utah from Montana: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/goslin_mtn/

http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/7-provo-peak-ut/

http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/5-bitterroot-valley-mt/
If the guns loaded, which many of these are, it is only a matter of when the trigger is pulled.

Moose: Nothing to see here, all is good

Elk: Elk seem to avoid most of this right to the end. Like Mountain goats, they have avoided much of this because of where and how they live. You typically only see elk suffering over the last 20 years in areas with migrations and logging, where these elk just can't escape the use of pesticides on critical grounds that they migrate to and from. Everywhere else they have done quite well. We are just starting to see the affects in elk, so that should be telling as to where we are.

I know of two more elk, just like the one below, that were taken in the same general area as most of the deer and elk in this thread.









Sage Grouse: I keep reading about how fire and weeds are the two biggest problems facing sage grouse. I use to disagree with this assessment, but it is sort of right. More appropriately, the biggest problem facing sage grouse is how we deal with fires, potential fires, and "weeds". Greater sage-grouse populations declined by at least 55 percent range-wide from 2007 to 2013, according to a new study. Weird, the BLM ramps up the use of pesticides, in many cases specifically for the "benefit" of wildlife, and the sage grouse declines by 55% in 6 years, succinctly with this expanded use. Coincidence? I think not. I'll dig up the 2006 plan. There are two one for sage grouse management(before the current decline) nad the other for the expansion of pesticide use. The expansion is for both volume, number of states, and new pesticides.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

I agree with you completely that pesticide use is not good for wildlife or our land, but in this world where we seem to have two evils in every setting, I'm wondering, especially on BLM land, which is worse alternative: cheat grass overtaking areas and making them useless and completely out of whack on the fire cycle, or pesticide use to keep cheatgrass at bay that causes numerous problems in our wildlife? I know the fungus for cheat grass is being studied and hopefully it will be an affective tool, but cheat grass is winning even with a fight being fought against it, can we really stop using pesticides without completely being overrun by cheat grass at this point? I guess at this point cheat grass is taking over, and we are using pesticides so we are giving things a double dose of the drug. It seems to be a very difficult situation where we are losing both ways. The fungus is a hopeful weapon against it, but without a true answer to cheat grass I'm not sure what option is any better.


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## Lonetree

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I agree with you completely that pesticide use is not good for wildlife or our land, but in this world where we seem to have two evils in every setting, I'm wondering, especially on BLM land, which is worse alternative: cheat grass overtaking areas and making them useless and completely out of whack on the fire cycle, or pesticide use to keep cheatgrass at bay that causes numerous problems in our wildlife? I know the fungus for cheat grass is being studied and hopefully it will be an affective tool, but cheat grass is winning even with a fight being fought against it, can we really stop using pesticides without completely being overrun by cheat grass at this point? I guess at this point cheat grass is taking over, and we are using pesticides so we are giving things a double dose of the drug. It seems to be a very difficult situation where we are losing both ways. The fungus is a hopeful weapon against it, but without a true answer to cheat grass I'm not sure what option is any better.


Hi, I'm Lonetree and I use to hate weeds.

I grew up watching massive mule deer that grew up on cheatgrass infested ranges. The thing is "weeds" don't kill deer, they grow deer. The stuff that kills weeds is what kills deer, and sheep, and antelope, and sage grouse, and elk, and moose, and rabbits, and HUNTING.

We need a serious paradigm shift when it comes to "invasives" and "weeds". First off most of the "science" about how bad these plants are, is coming from herbicide companies, universities funded by them, and scientists "educated" by them. There is quite the history in the West of these companies and their anti hunting minions teaming up with national wildlife refuges and state forests to test and deploy this poison, all under the guise of "helping".

Here is an example in California of this. This is where the first Western selenium deficiencies in deer were identified in LaTour state forest. This pesticide has since been banned.
http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/documents/psw_rn224/psw_rn224.pdf
This is when the first under bites showed up in California elk as well. Towards the end of the war when herbicide companies could see their cash cow was about to end in Vietnam, they started working on new markets here. It is only a few years later in 1976 that multi-state wildlife conventions are being held because of the massive decline in mule deer.

The tule elk with the under bites in California were scrawny, and had under developed antlers. Some of these elk were transplanted to a site one mile from Kesterson reservoir. Anyone who knows anything about Kesterson knows that it has massively high amounts of selenium. The levels are so high they are toxic to many animals and birds. Yet the transplanted elk grew massive bodies and antlers and flourished in only three generations there.

Here is a case where Monsanto and Mahluer national wildlife refuge teamed up to _help_ the deer: http://oregonstate.edu/dept/eoarc/sites/default/files/publication/408h.pdf

Here is what the deer look like now









Here is what the locals have been seeing there for about 20 years now. http://www.huntfishnw.com/index.php?topic=6879.0 Of course it could be dozens of other _possibilities_.

We have the "weed" thing all wrong. Here is a good read that explains much of this: 




You can listen to an interview about this here: http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/new-wild

If anyone has anymore doubt, all you have to do is read up on Hart Mountain National Antelope Refuge. http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/hart-mountain-or/

So the choice is groomed, tame parks with no wildlife, with hunting of remaining wildlife only for the wealthy(for "conservation" money of course, to pay for pesticides) _or_ lots of wildlife, hunting for the masses, and yeah we have some "weeds". Of course anywhere you have government hand outs and corporate welfare ***** vying for it, you can rest assured the wrong thing will be done.

1-I, how did the deer population start to rebound over the last several years? Was it because of reduced weeds and cheat grass? Are you seeing less? Or was it economics? because the money was not there for the pesticides, for the war on weeds? I can tell you the money is there now.


----------



## Lonetree

Kicking myself for not charging the camera battery tonight, I missed a lot, I always see more on Monday anyway, and even more when riding with Murphey and a dead battery.

All I got was this funky moose with my phone. He is asymmetrical and has a lot of atrophied velvet. Edit: the velvet looks atrophied but is just white. He is small bodied and young for his rack though.








He came off of a magnesium lick, which is not the norm in the daylight for moose. Elk and moose typically only visit at night. He then fed up over a ridge, and onto a power line right of way where continued to feed a s he went.

Lots of elk this year on the licks, last year they quit visiting them almost two months ago, then again they were not observed feeding on right of ways either.

Lots of bucks, and I know that everyone likes this, but the buck to doe ratios are too high, just like in the '90s. I think that's actually the DWR sales and bragging pitch isn't it? The problem is that these high ratios are symptomatic of the bigger problem. There was a deer study conducted in the late '80s in Montana that established and verified ~50:50 at birth sex ratios. Several years later in the same area, deer were crashing, and some of the first malformations such as under bites showed up. The at birth sex ratios during this decline was as high as 66 males to 33 females, with female mortality 2:1 higher. I like seeing bucks, but this is just one more sign of things to come.


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## Lonetree

This information on the jacked up elk on Hardware needs to be updated: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/31-hardware-ranch-ut/

This map: http://wri.utah.gov/WRI/Map.aspx?id=973 shows the areas at Hardware treated from 2008-2013. Herbicides used included plateau and tebuthiuron. Animals have shown a tendency to feed on tebuthiuron treated foliage which can remain in the soil for 10 years: http://www.tucson.ars.ag.gov/unit/Publications/PDFfiles/824.pdf This study also shows that manganese is increased in tebuthiuron treated foliage. And increased Mn in conjunction with decreased copper is associated with prion diseases http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006899309015182 that have been shown to share the same mis-folded protien etiology as cancer and diabetes: http://www.nature.com/nature/insights/6968.html And keep in mind that a lot of pesticides disrupt amino acid sythesis, ie. protein formation, and therefor protein folding as well.

Plateau is the trade name for Imazapic: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.n...s/original/1428423385/imazapic.pdf?1428423385

Imazapic has been shown to cause testicular atrophy, and is long lived in soil as well with a half life of 3+ years. Imazapic works by the same mode of protien sythesis disruption in plants as sulfonylureas: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/sulfonylureas/


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## Lonetree

Here is the FEIS on the 1991 BLM expansion of herbicide use: http://archive.org/stream/vegetationtreatm20unit/vegetationtreatm20unit_djvu.txt

And here is a story on the 2006 expansion plan: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635172346/BLM-wants-to-treat-Western-lands-with-chemicals.html

Sage grouse declined how much, across what time frame, and occupy land that is mostly under what jurisdiction?


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## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> That's not the part you hear, see, or feel.


uh...it was a joke A nickel for every time I heard someone say that on this forum.

.


----------



## swbuckmaster

LT have you brought any of this stuff up at the wildlife committees? 

I've seen enough to know you may be on to something.


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## ridgetop

swbuckmaster said:


> LT have you brought any of this stuff up at the wildlife committees?
> 
> I've seen enough to know you may be on to something.


Indeed!!!

And why hasn't anyone from the DWR come out and make any sort of comment about this debate?

We all know that plenty of them visit this site now and then.

Amy, any thoughts?


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## #1DEER 1-I

You've done a lot of research and have more links than are needed to convine me that feeding our wildlife poisons is not a good idea. I've also watched deer grow up on cheat grass infested ranges, we all probably have. They seem to be okay for the most part. I don't know if I would go as far as saying cheat grass grows deer. I would like to see some sort of control of it, but the biological fungus, rather than the deadly poisons are the way we should be moving. I'm also curious as to know how we fix the notion that using herbicides is acceptable. I've brought up some of what I've researched from your links, and it seems to be hard to comprehend and not accepted by our fine DWR. Shifts are slow I know, but my guess would be we will keep heading this direction until a major crash does happen again, and hope we learn as a society this time from a mistake we've made more than once.


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## rockroller

Are you meaning herbicides? For plants.


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## #1DEER 1-I

rockroller said:


> Are you meaning herbicides? For plants.


 Yes


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## Lonetree

SW, Ridgetop, We nominated an individual for the Northern RAC. His interview involved a lot of questions about Western Wildlife Ecology and what we do. This particular individual is also involved with several other conservation orgs, and has university level education in wildlife biology and law enforcement. He was not chosen for the position. I do not have any details on who did get the position or why. Our intention in nominating him was to engage that process.

Someone is looking over some information, that should serve as a sort of basic introduction to this. The plan is to organize and put something together on that level, and get it out to the RACs and the WB. 

On that note, Western Wildlife Ecology is looking for additional officers, and others interested in being involved. We hired a professional to get our 501c status in order, after a couple of folks that are no longer involved dropped the ball. Involvement can be as simple as surveillance on areas with observed issues. Every time we get a picture, or a story about an area where people are seeing things it adds to the understanding, and gives us some direction with regard to on the ground research. 

We need to look at things very differently from what we have been. Somewhere around 30 years ago the science behind wildlife conservation came off the rails, and the results of this seem to be, at least to me, very self evident. 

This is obviously a fluid situation when it comes to the understanding of what is going on. I should give a shout out to some other folks, working on related issues, that have contributed greatly to the latest biochemistry riddles. I have had some amazing help on several key points of some of this.


----------



## Lonetree

rockroller said:


> Are you meaning herbicides? For plants.


Pesticide is an umbrella term for herbicides, insecticides, biocides, rodenticides, etc. So I have defaulted to the term as it covers everything. Most of this involves herbicides for plants, but there are some exceptions.

Insecticides: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/10-lander-wy/

Rodenticides: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/16/us-usa-geese-idaho-idUSKBN0O100S20150516

In the case of the geese it was a dramatic and quick result. In the case of the deer, it has been a slow drawn out decline over several years.


----------



## Lonetree

Ran out to a different spot tonight.

Saw this guy on the way through all the ussual treated stuff, might have been coming off of a mag lick, or was eating road side vegetation, I did not get out to inspect close. He is tall, but his bifurcation is all ***** up. 









So as I get close to where I was intending to go, I come around the corner, and see deer and elk, together on the road side. Here are the elk headed one direction.









And here are the deer stopped watching the elk head out of town.









So as I head down to see what has them all together on the side of road, these sage grouse pop up about 30 yards from the deer, coming from the same spot as the deer and the elk.









So I get down to the spot and find fairly recently treated foliage. I got a shot of this one with the deer still in the background.









Deer in focus.









Treated sagebrush in focus, deer still in the back ground. The sage brush is just starting to curl up. Smelled chlorinated, possibly Tordon.









Lots of little asymmetrical small two points, and porcupines climbing reflector posts. After they spray around the reflector posts, the porcupines come in and nose around in the dead stuff, defecate on the posts, and attempt to climb them.


----------



## phorisc

I saw a big group of guys spraying the forest by strawberry reservoir 3 weeks ago...I didn't see much harm or really understand why they are killing plants when its the forest...but now that I read this...ya this isnt healthy for the animals :/


----------



## Lonetree

phorisc said:


> I saw a big group of guys spraying the forest by strawberry reservoir 3 weeks ago...I didn't see much harm or really understand why they are killing plants when its the forest...but now that I read this...ya this isnt healthy for the animals :/


Can you PM me GPS coords?

Here: http://wri.utah.gov/WRI/Map.aspx?id=1816 are sage brush removals that have been sprayed with herbicides multiple years after the removals at Strawberry. There are more.

They do it to prevent the _weeds_ from _killing_ the deer, elk, and sage grouse, or something like that. I think its what they are calling _conservation ecology_.

There is not a single _conservation org, _or wildlife department out there that does not promote, or even actively promote, practice, and pay for this _conservation_ effort.


----------



## Lonetree

Not much tonight, bad timing.

What good symmetry should look like

















He has lots of white velvet. The last moose(near here) had white velvet as well, which looked like atrophied(dead/dried up) velvet. But its velvet, its there, its just white.

Down where I saw the deer, elk, and grouse last night, I kicked out a white tailed jack rabbit, from the same clump of treated vegetation. 









Treated vegetation at this site, definitely an auxin mimic of some kind.









Treated sage brush 









Untreated sage brush 10 feet away


----------



## Lonetree

White velvet, dozens of possibilities:

From here: http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/70/2/357.full.pdf "Soybean tissue cultures metabolize the auxin herbicide 2,4-D to amino acid and water-soluble(glycosides)conjugates Seven L-amino acid conjugates have been isolated and identified (2,4-D glutamic acid, 2,4-D aspartic acid, 2,4-D alanine, 2,4-D valine, 2,4-D leucine, 2,4-D phenylalanine, and 2,4-D tryp-tophan)"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So when animals eat 2,4-D treated vegetation the phenylalanine produced by the plants they ingest are conjugated with 2,4-D. The 2,4-D is attached to the phenylalanine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin: "*Melanin* i/ˈmɛlənɪn/ (Greek: μέλας - _melas_, "black, dark") is a broad term for a group of natural pigments found in most organisms (arachnids are one of the few groups in which it has not been detected). Melanin is produced by the oxidation of the amino acid tyrosine, followed by polymerization. The pigment is produced in a specialized group of cells known as melanocytes."

http://www.skinwhiteningscience.com/melanin_synthesis_pathways.html
"Melanin synthesis begins in the liver where phenylalanine is converted to tyrosine by the action of phenylalanine hydroxylase. The oxidation of L-Tyrosine to L-DOPA is then catalysed by the action of tyrosinase enzymes within the melanocyte's melanosome. In the next step L-DOPA is oxidized to DOPAquinone."

I don't know if I will hang my hat in this just yet, but it has a lot of potential.

Anyone else seeing white velvet on moose? Its like an animal with leucism, but on just the antlers.


----------



## Charina

Lonetree said:


> You can listen to an interview about this here: [URL]http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/new-wild[/URL]


Absolute heresey! How dare you promote something that says we shouldn't stop every wildfire in it's tracks, or fight every 'invasive' non-native plant/animal!!! ;-)

The following stood out to me from the interview: 


> Plants, and animals too, are sort of iconic for us in many ways. They speak to our some of our deepest emotional feelings and also our feelings about landscapes. And maybe this is why we dislike newcomer species so much, is that they disrupt our, quite deeply embedded sense, of about how landscapes should be.


It is very interesting how humans try so hard to manipulate plant and animals species according to our romanticized sense of how things ought to be. How much negative alteration to intended goals has occurred by fire suppression? We (collectively) romanticize lush healthy forests, and have scrambled for so long to suppress the fires that threaten that romanticized view, only to have our own actions threaten what we try to save. So strange. It is this very "disneyification" of the wilds that seems to be at the heart of extreme environmentalist views. If you don't treat with herbicides in an effort to restore sage grouse, someone in San Francisco running rampant with their emotional views of how 'it should be wild and original' will sue. And yet, by the same mechanism, but for the exactly opposite purpose, hunters get all bent out of shape if the deer, elk, sheep, etc populations are not at their peak.


----------



## Lonetree

Herbicides and politics: It knows no party bounds, lefties feel their use on GMOs will feed the world, and right leaning conservationists feel the same about their role in _conservation ecology. _Donald Rumsfeld has championed them as president of Searle, a Monsanto company, while at the same time Hillary Clinton's law firm defended Monsanto in the court of law and public opinion.

But yeah, if someone is going to sue, we better keep doing it........

The problem here is that the lefty preservationists AND righty conservationists have had it all wrong for about 30 years. We have strayed so far from the sound roots of conservation laid out by Roosevelt and Muir, that were built up and solidified by the scientific understanding of men like Leopold and the Muries, that people in both the conservation camp, and the preservation camp don't have a clue about what they are doing, let alone its outcome. Conservation has become it's own worst enemy, with out any help from liberals in San Fransisco. We need a serious scientific based ecological revival of the conservation movement, and hunters need to be leading the call for this. Conservationists are killing conservation and hunting, because of ignorance, and in exchange for money. Wildlife declines and conservation have become big business.


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## Lonetree

Pesticides and whirling disease:

Here are treated willows, next to a stream, on a roadside, with a treated power line in the back ground. The willows are probably treated with 2,4-D or Tordon. Garlon gets used by Rocky Mountain Power on a lot of power lines.









Here are treated willows, on the road side, right up to the banks of a beaver pond. 2,4-D and Tordon are toxic to fish, specifically trout.









Treated vegetation at the base of a reflector post next to a beaver pond. These posts tend to get treated with Glyphosate.









So whirling disease has been around in the US since the 1950s. But it did not become a huge problem until the early 1990s. Whirling disease was spreading like wildfire, at the same time that biggame populations were crashing, coincidence? not likely.

So whirling disease is caused by a parasite, that is carried by a worm, that fish ingest. The parasite, carried by the worms, once eaten by the fish, burrows into the still forming bone(cartilage) of young fish. This causes the fish to grow abnormally, twisting up their spines, causing them to "whirl" as they swim. Obviously fish had been eating these worms and the parasite they carry since the 1950s, but it did not become a huge problem until the early 1990s when we see many wildlife populations crash, including June suckers.

In New Zealand they have a similar issue with a "disease" in fish, that is caused by a parasite that causes deformed spines in fish, just like Whirling disease. Instead of a worm carrying the parasite like in the case of whirling disease, it is snail that carries the parasite in New Zealand. It has been shown that the pesticide Glyphosate increases the snails, and there for the exposure to the parasites in the fish, driving the disease cycle. Study: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2664.2010.01791.x/abstract

Other pesticides have been shown to delay the ossification of bone. In fish this would leave them vulnerable for longer periods of time to the parasites carried by the tubifex worms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubifex

Tubifex worms thrive in eutrophied waters, high in phosphorous, they are called sewage worms. And gylphosate has been shown to cause eutrophication by increasing phosphorous loads: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091117

Glyphosate and other pesticides get into the water creating eutrophic conditions, with increased phosphorous loads>>>>>This in turn creates a favorable enviroment to increase tubifex worms>>>>>Increases in Tubifex worms then create increases in Myxobolus cerebralis, the parasite that causes Whirling disease>>>>>This then leads to increases in whirling disease>>>>>Which kills the fish and releases the parasite Myxobolus back into the system, and into more Tubifex worms, repeating the cycle.>>>>>>>Other pesticides that delay ossification of bone will increase the efficiency of this process making it worse.

Both Garlon and Glyphosate have been shown to induce DNA damage in fish as well: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25058560 Which is no surprise given the epigentic malformations observed in biggame like under bites, and disrupted antler biogenesis.

We will have to get to the pesticide influence on buck to doe ratios, and coyote predation at another time.


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## Lonetree

From last night:

This deer's incissors are malformed and have grown incorrectly.









Just like the teeth of these two mule deer fetuses.


















One deer with teeth like this is just an isolated incident, but these three deer all came from the same area. These incisors should all be of similar size and shape, in a semi circular pattern that evenly contacts the upper dental pad.

The gene that is responsible for governing this development, is the same gene responsible for governing and patterning antler growth. Which is why you see these malocclusions in the same places you see weird and asymmetrical antlers.

Sonic hedge hog gene and teeth: "Sonic hedgehog (SHH) is a signaling molecule that is encoded by the same gene sonic hedgehog. SHH plays very important role in organogenesis and most importantly craniofacial development. SHH is released from the primary enamel knot, a signaling center, to provide positional information in both a lateral and planar signaling pattern in tooth development and regulation of tooth cusp growth.[57] The secondary enamel knots secrete SHH in combination with other signaling molecules to thicken the oral ectoderm and begin patterning the complex shapes of the crown of a tooth during differentiation and mineralization.[58] However SHH activates downstream molecules of Gli2 & Gli3. Mutant Gli2 and Gli3 embryos have abnormal development of incisors that are arrested at early in tooth development as well as small molars.[59]

Many of these malocclusions express as classical under bites which are definitive signs of hypothyroidism. Hypothyroidism and pesticides: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842196/ Keep in mind this study is about secondary exposure, not eating this stuff.

Thyroid function has a direct influence on SHH gene: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25539664 Note the reference to Manganese in the beginning of this. This has importance in the use of 
tebuthiuron at hardware ranch, as tebuthiuron has been shown to increase manganese in treated plants.

Selenium and thyroid function: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17284630 This is why Selenium 90 blocks are being used so heavily in the cattle industry right now.

So in short, pesticides disrupt thyroid function>>>>>>>>> Disrupted thyroid function then influences Sonic Hedge hog signalling>>>>>>>>And the result is messed up teeth, and antlers in deer, which is just the most extreme manifestations of this. If large numbers of deer are expressing this severely, the rest of the population is affected as well, just at lower levels. All of this leads to a crash of these populations.

The elk were headed back in to the road side last night. This area is freshly treated, and I have not observed elk on it prior to the spraying. Notice the treated pipeline in the background.


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## Lonetree

Late start tonight, ended up being delayed. I was getting a report from someone that had checked in on some side by side mineral trials that had been out for about 2 weeks. They did not get me pictures, but if there is anything left I'll get some if I make it up there. So there were 4 salt blocks in multiple locations. At each location one was plain salt, one was iodized cobalt salt, one was a trace mineral block with copper, and one was a selenium 90 block. Any guesses on which one was preferred? The selenium blocks were almost half gone, and had teeth marks in them. The rest were barely touched.

From the highway tonight.

No elk tonight on the new spray, just deer and sage grouse.









You can just barely see them in this pic, same deer as in the first pic. They have moved just off the side of the road.









Sage grouse headed out the other side of the road, barely caught the straggler.









Here is a roadside magnesium lick that the deer have pawed and licked about 12" deep. See how the road turns and banks. This is what concentrates the salt and mag-chloride into the spots on the side of the road. Its not random, its been concentrated.









This poor guy is probably glad he got hit by a car. I could not make out much of his teeth or antlers because he had been hit in the head, but his junk is not right. His penis is only 3.5cm which is about half length, and his testicles are misaligned about 90 degrees out of whack. Most I see are about 45 degrees, but this one is a full 90 degrees. This is caused by the left testicle descending in front of the right testicle through the right inguinal ring. Remember SHH and symmetry? Well SHH governs sexual dimorphism as well: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3391966/ So that would cover symmetry and dimorphic biogenesis.


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## Lonetree

I had a question about the testicles just "laying" that way, because the deer is on his side. If you look at the hair growth, which grows front to back, you will see that the scrotum grew this way, and is not just laying on its side.

Here is some in depth detail on this: http://rutalocura.com/files/Discussion_of_size_and_placement_of_Hemiscrota_on_Mammal_Species_.pdf


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## Jedidiah

But I wonder how they taste. Funny thing, I was scrolling through this thread getting ready to make a joke about how we should be posting pictures from behind instead of in front if the boy bits are so important, but you went and ruined my fun.


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## Lonetree

Jedidiah said:


> But I wonder how they taste. Funny thing, I was scrolling through this thread getting ready to make a joke about how we should be posting pictures from behind instead of in front if the boy bits are so important, but you went and ruined my fun.


One of the best tasting deer I have shot was exposed to herbicides(probably 2,4-D) and the biocide acrolien(worst of the worst)

Here is what his rack looked like.









Here is me debating whether or not to take him. It is the last day of the 2011 rifle season.









He had laminitis in his front hooves as well. I don't know about his teeth because I was not aware of under bites back then. It was only a 3/4 mile pack out, but I called for help. My big toe on my left foot was broken, I had a dog bite in my right shin, and I was suffering from tetanus because of the dog bite. That was actually a really good season considering.

This area use to winter about 700+ head of deer prior to 1994. Just before they crashed there were all kinds of crazy cactus bucks, and one horned deer. Several of the two points had one side that would wrap down around their face, to the point they almost could not eat. I use to sit at the wall of an irrigation ditch and watch them come in to drink in the evening. So I would see some these deer at only 10 feet. More than half of the bucks were like this, and the buck to doe ratio was like 100:100.

After the '94 crash some of the wintering populations never came back. And this area winters a fraction of the deer it use to. In 2011 and 2012 we were supplementing with selenium in a nearby area, and all the 20 somethings were freaking out because you could see 100 deer in a day on the extended. They had no Idea that "back in the good old days" you would see twice that many in a single string trailing out of any of those canyons.

When the deer crashed, so did the rabbits, porcupines, badgers, and chukars. This one was a lot harder to figure out, because its the irrigation water in the foot hills that gets treated. You can still find a lot of chukars, but you have to be really high on the mountain. The coveys that use to utilize the irrigation water are all gone, as are the vast majority of the deer.


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## Lonetree

Here are employees of the irrigation company treating a different irrigation ditch with Acrolein. 









This stuff is a biocide, meaning it kills anything that is living.

From here: http://www.rtknet.org/node/236 "Acrolein may cause mutations (genetic changes that can be passed on to future generations)"

Acrolein is one of the cancer casing and DNA damaging by products of cigarette smoke. The amount in cigarettes is miniscule compared to what gets pumped into the water. It is also a product of lipid peroxidation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11550810 which happens to be one of the affects of other pesticides on animals, and is specifically one of the things that selenium and magnesium protect against. One of the reasons animals end up selenium deficient when exposed to pesticides is because their reserves get used up defending against the affects of these toxins.


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## Lonetree

From tonight.

Finally got a pic of one of the collared deer in the area. Always seem to see them after dark, and can't get a picture.









One of the does with her has a big growth on her rear end. Looks like a really big fibroma.


















Here is what the herbicide treated roadside they hang out on looks like.









More deer and sage grouse down on the new spray. I'm getting better at getting that straggler.









These guys were feeding around this treated reflector post when I first got up on them. They moved a little ways off the road and continued to feed.









This one is really hard to see, it was very dark. He has some big bases, that have all the making for a classic cactus buck. He was feeding on treated vegetation.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

Lonetree, have to taken this information to the Wildlife Board, or brought it up at RAC meetings? 

Seems like no one on here could do absolutely anything as far as bringing about a change, if that's what your goal is.


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## Lonetree

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Lonetree, have to taken this information to the Wildlife Board, or brought it up at RAC meetings?
> 
> Seems like no one on here could do absolutely anything as far as bringing about a change, if that's what your goal is.


Everyone should know what is going on with regard to our wildlife. We have attempted to engage the RAC process by nominating someone for a Northern region seat, that did not pan out. We will attempt to engage them by other means.

There are some that do not believe that state level committees or boards are worth engaging at all, and that this needs to be taken to the US Fish and Wildlife Service. Given the track record of state F&G departments they may well be correct in this assertion, we'll see. That may not be a choice I get to make at some point.

If anyone thinks the UDWR is unaware of any of this, you would be very wrong. They are choosing to ignore this like a lot of other things that don't fit their agenda, and the agendas of the special interests that they are beholden to.

And before anyone gets all bent out of shape because I'm trashing the hard working folks at the DWR, hold on a minute. There are a lot of really good folks that work for the DWR, I would say a majority, that have the best of intentions for wildlife and hunters. They just don't happen to be the folks making policy, or guiding the DWR agenda.


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## Lonetree

Trying to out run the storm last night.









Timing was off because of the weather. The elk were just coming off the road side. Seems to be a regular evening event, with the deer, sage grouse, rabbits, and elk. Prior to this area getting treated recently, you rarely saw anything here. They are not coming in to mineral licks, I have not found a single one, they are coming into the treated vegetation.


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## Lonetree

So 24th traffic was horrible last night and did not help my efforts. Now I know what its like to be a road hunter.

Found this guy on a magnesium lick just after dusk.









Pesticides and their infulence on predator prey relationships: The worm Echinococcus granulosus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinococcus_granulosus is found in the intestines of canines. This worm is passed from the canine host to an intermediate host, where it is then passed back to the canine. This plays out between moose and wolves, deer/mice and coyotes, foxes and mice, etc.

This worm causes cystic echinococcosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinococcosis "The disease often starts without symptoms and this may last for a year. The symptoms and signs that occur depend on the cyst's location and size. Alveolar disease usually begins in the liver but can spread to other parts of the body, such as the lungs or brain. When the liver is affected the person may have abdominal pain, weight loss, and turn yellow. Lung disease may cause pain in the chest, shortness of breath and coughing"

Its prevalence in the West: http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/wildlife/diseaseEchinococcusWolves.pdf

So in order for deer for example to ingest this parasite, they must come into contact with canine fecal matter. While random exposure through grazing seems possible. In the case of domestic sheep and dogs the possibility of this occurring grows exponentially because of contact. But wide spread exposure in deer would seem unlikely. At least that is what I use to think.

Over the years I have dissected a lot of coyote turds, this is why I know they have decimated the grasshopper and apricot populations. I have also created a lot of mineral licks over this same time frame. Over the last several years I would have coyotes defecate in my selenium licks. The theory by others was that the coyotes were selenium deficient. While that could be, why defecate in the lick? after creating magnesium licks over the last year, I have seen the same thing happen in magnesium licks. Both ones I have created, and those created on road sides by deicer. 









Ungulates are exposed to pesticides>>>>>>>This drives mineral deficiencies>>>>>>>Which drives concentrations of ungulates on mineral licks>>>>>>>Coyotes defecate in these mineral licks increasing exposure to tape worms>>>>>>This would have the affect of exacerbating health conditions in already compromised animals, and drive the cycle of the tape worm back through the system after coyotes feed on the affected animals.

I see coyotes defecate at the site of shed antlers as well. Which could increase the exposure in rodents that utilize these as mineral sources.


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## Beast

I recognize the pic with the elk in it.


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## Lonetree

Found this nice typical buck feeding on a new road side last night. Thanks for the tip. This was a county road, but within proximity to a treated state road and treated power line right of way. He is a little stiff in his rear legs, and he is not in top condition.









They had just treated and mowed this road within the last 3 days. A local told me this deer has been hanging out on this spot since just before it was mowed. They usually treat and then mow. Here are cropped pictures of the weeds this deer was targeting. The red circles are places he clipped and ate the shoot. The black circles are the curling up shoots of the treated vegetation. This was an auxin mimic herbicide. Its easy to tell because it only affects broad leaves, and not grasses.


















This one is feeding at the edge of an alfalfa field. It has been observed that deer feeding alfalfa fields may be doing so because they are copper deficient. I could not find where I put that study, but found another from awhile ago.









I got all set up on the spot where the deer, elk, and sage grouse come into the spot treated road side. About 20 elk were headed in, with 3 way out in front. A car came past and they all held for quite awhile. They started to move back in, when a motorcycle came through, and it was game over.


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## Lonetree

From this: http://jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7589/0090-3558-24.4.656

"In Texas low liver copper levels were reported for 4 of 7 white-tail deer with antlers "....stunted, twisted, broadened, or knobby at the tips" (King et al., 1984). A local deficiency of an unidentified trace element was proposed as a potential cause of antlers in velvet in the fall and atrophic testes in white-tailed deer in the same area(Taylor et al., 1964) This anomaly was localized, but generally the incidence increased following severe droughts."

Some one ahead of their time. What could that unidentified trace element be? You see increased spraying for brush removal to increase pasture in droughts, just like we have been seeing across the west for several years now.

The other thing that stuck out is they included pictures of some abnormal antlers in copper deficient elk from California. I have seen a lot of cork screwing in deer, and they see a lot in copper and selenium deficient elk in WA and OR. I have also seen a lot of palmation/broadening in elk antlers over the past several years in several areas.

It looks alot like this: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/31-hardware-ranch-ut/ where they have treated over


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## Mr Muleskinner

Keep it up LT. Good stuff on the Bad Stuff.


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## Lonetree

Beast said:


> I recognize the pic with the elk in it.


Yeah, near the spring where FS Rd xxx crosses(I don't want to hotspot this). I was all over that side of things this spring, last year, and the year before(had an antelope tag), and did not see this kind of activity. And then out of the blue it started getting lots of traffic. I did find an antelope with messed up hooves last spring about 2 miles East of there. The Ruby pipeline parallels this stretch of road as well. And there is some potentially concerning stuff to the North, but nothing confirmed at this point.

We had this submission last year, I'm pretty sure they said it was the same county, but now that I'm looking for it, I'm not seeing it.


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## Lonetree

New area, new fresh spraying.


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## Lonetree

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.c...ssroads-crops-contributing-whitetail-decline/


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## Springville Shooter

Hey Lonetree, 

When you have a minute, please tell us about any control studies that could confirm the causation of the evidence that you are collecting and presenting. It would be interesting to know the rate of incidence of these abnormalities in herds living in areas where treatment does not occur. It would be insightful to see how these control herds would react to mineral bating as well. The stuff that you are presenting is compelling but I have seen research get off base quickly when emotional blinders are applied due to the passion of the researcher. I think that the real answers come only when one tries to disprove a theory just as vigorously and fairly as they try to prove it. -----SS


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## Lonetree

Springville Shooter said:


> Hey Lonetree,
> 
> When you have a minute, please tell us about any control studies that could confirm the causation of the evidence that you are collecting and presenting. It would be interesting to know the rate of incidence of these abnormalities in herds living in areas where treatment does not occur. It would be insightful to see how these control herds would react to mineral bating as well. The stuff that you are presenting is compelling but I have seen research get off base quickly when emotional blinders are applied due to the passion of the researcher. I think that the real answers come only when one tries to disprove a theory just as vigorously and fairly as they try to prove it. -----SS


Trust me, I would much rather have this be something besides pesticides, I quickly walked away from the idea twice before in the last 20 years.

I will go back to the Whiskey Mountain Bighorn sheep herd, because this is where I started. These sheep have been in decline for 20+ years, with the exception of the last few, sound familiar?. They had two large declines, early '90s, and early 2000s, with subpar recovers and a suppressed populations. In 2013 and 2014 they saw the first significant increases in over 20 years.

The winter range of these sheep has been heavily manipulated. And before both major declines, their winter range was treated with herbicides. This had been done to remove fringed sage brush on at least one occasion. These sheep target fringed sage brush for the first few days they are on the winter range.

In the mid 2000s a study was conducted to try and determine what was causing these sheep to decline. It was determined that it was a selenium deficiency that was causing the declines, and suppression of the herd/s.

These sheep summer on two different ranges, one on Arrow mountain, and one on Whiskey Mountain, with both wintering on Torrey rim, the site of the herbicide applications. Selenium supplementation was conducted on Whiskey mountain, with the Arrow mountain herd left as a control group. Sheep that received selenium supplementation on Whiskey mountain had improved survival and increased reproduction. Where as Arrow mountain sheep continued to decline.

There were environmental factors(acid rain) that were documented to be causing reduced selenium availability in feed. While these reductions certainly contributed to the problem, they could not account for the severe deficiency and quick onset seen in the sheep. Though they did seem to be a trigger.

After getting the details on the herbicide applications and timing, I proposed that it was pesticide induced Post Partum Thyroiditis that was the cause of these declines, based on all evidence available. Actually, that was about the fifth thing I proposed. After running it through the paces, John Mionczynski, the lead researcher on this, concurs that this is the most likely explanation. Nothing else fits. Among bighorn sheep biologists and researchers, Mionczynski is an alpha dog among alpha dogs, he knows his stuff. The biochemistry I propose to be at the root of the Post Partum Thyroiditis has been checked out and signed off on by others as well. This is not just something that made me feel all warm and fuzzy, I was spanked and sent back to the drawing board several times on this.

The 2 years of increases these sheep have enjoyed, corresponds to one of the longest periods of herbicides not being used on their winter range.

The original studies on this below: No it does not mention herbicides, this was determined retrospectively. 
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10344-007-0128-9

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2002/2002-Hnilicka et al.pdf

Control group for mineral baiting: Trying to find a place, where you can confirm that deer have not been exposed to herbicides for a number of generations is not an easy thing to do. I thought I found a captive herd of deer, that I could try this with. But guess what, I was able to confirm exposure in less than a day, and that's after being told, at least initially, that they did not use herbicides. But generally speaking healthy animals do not exhibit a "thirst" for copper, selenium, and magnesium, like deer and sheep that have been exposed to herbicides have been documented to have.

I'm not really sure what the skeptics need or want to see here in Utah. I have documented the use, and increase in use, over the last several years, at many locations. This includes specifics on what formulations, at which sites, along with time frames. I have then documented a resulting presence and increase in malformations, that have been shown to be caused by herbicides(laboratory studies), that have been documented in other places, in big game, in association with herbicide use. I have then explained the specific biochemistry of how several of these herbicides are responsible for the specific issues seen in the wildlife. Simplified example: Under bites. These are known to be a result of congenital hypothyroidism, as a result of being born to a mother with thyroid disruption. This is proven science. 60% of all herbicides cause thyroid disruption, this is also proven science. I have then gone on, not in great detail here, to show the epigenetic mechanism by which this occurs. This was before now unknown, and is being looked at by researchers studying the affects of pesticides on humans.

Simplest way to vigorously disprove this, is to find alternative causes for the under bites, malformed genitalia, abnormal antlers, reduced fecundity, laminitis, and mineral deficiencies. While you might might find a couple for a few of those individual instances, you are not going to find an alternative to explain them all, especially across space and time.

I've thrown the challenge out before, and I'll do it again. If anyone can explain the corresponding mineral deficiencies and malformations that have accompanied the last 20+ years of declines, I'm all ears. If you can't account for these things, then you can't account for the declines, and you therefor can not do anything about those declines. As a hunter and non-politically motivated conservationist, my agenda is not to prove a theory, it is to determine what has caused these declines, and therefor reverse them. If anyone can muster up an alternative explanation, and explain it inside and out, I'm with you 100%.


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## Lonetree

Tonight's run, been meaning to check up on this tip. It was a good one.

Found this guy on the side of the road on the way there. He is an adult deer with underdeveloped I2s, I3s, And C1s.









Heading into the new place. The first deer I see is in pretty poor condition.









One of the next deer I see is not looking any better. These are on a spot treated road side.









So I get up into the property I'm heading to, and find this doe with two fawns feeding on a treated site. This area has been heavily spot treated for what looked like dyers woad, thistle, and a few other unknowns. The deer have beat down most of the vegetation feeding on the treated plants. The red encircled area is the treated and trampled area.









Lots of over spray, and affected plants that are not "weeds", like this willow. This is about 10 yards to the left of the preceding picture, at the edge of the treated area. There was an aspen tree in the last picture that was dead as well. A few other spots make it look like this was treated in the past as well. 









Another area of over spray, above the first two areas.









Couple of decent three points in a side canyon that look to be doing ok.









The deer behind the first one is licking the road, probably for mag. This is on the way out.









Back into some more familiar territory just at dusk. This one looks nice.









This one's right side is just a club, with a big base. His body condition and coat are really poor, and he is sway backed(copper deficiency?)


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## Lonetree

Found a new road side magnesium lick. Easiest way to find these? Let the porcupines show you where they are.

Standing there looking at the lick, and this bachelor group comes right in. The pictures of the deer and the lick are all taken while standing in the same spot.


















The lick.









At the treated spots that usually draw the deer and the elk, there was an antelope that was coming in, but then headed out, I messed that one up.









The sage grouse were down on it again as well.









I got a tip on an active Forest Service spray. That will be tomorrows spot. This is a popular deer hunting spot, and I might just hotspot this one, based on what I am hearing.


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## Iron Bear

How can I set one of these licks up?


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## Lonetree

Iron Bear said:


> How can I set one of these licks up?


Page 4, post 4 of this thread.

Here is one I started about 1.5 weeks ago, it just had tracks in two nights ago. The dark area is the magnesium, it holds moisture, so the dirt will look damp many times.


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## Lonetree

Today's runs.

Left Ogden, and drove North on I-15 to the I-84 split. The whole thing is treated. 84 to Snowville, some of the worst. Took 30 West out of Snowville to the 42/30 split, also treated. Here is what is at that intersection. Sign of the time and things to come. One of the biggest lies I've seen in a long time.









Notice how nice and new that sign is? That's because we are in the midst of a build up right now. Here is the road side on the other side of 42.









I headed West on 42 to 81 where I continued West to Standrod where these guys drove by. most 81 does not look treated, but most is in Idaho.









From Standrod I headed South up One Mile Road(FS 005). This road has been treated in the past as well. 30 feet into the Forest service boundary I find this treated thistle that has been fed on. There are deer and cattle tracks nearby.









Here is a thistle that has been treated. The over spray has hit this willow, right over One Mile creek.









20 feet from the last spot is more over sprayed willow that have been fed on. This area is riparian and fenced off from the cows, so this was deer eating this.









Sprayed stuff along the road side that has been fed on. There are cattle and deer tracks.









This spot of dirt has been treated with a pre-emergent herbicide, as have dozens of other spots. They were treating any "disturbed" dirt, even vole diggings. You can just barely see the green dye that was used with the herbicide, this was probably over a week ago.









Here is what the leaves in the Aspens look like near these treatments. This is a FS Aspen regeneration sight, but maybe some one should tell them that.









They had treated all of the dirt on the water bars that they had worked. This spraying goes along with road work. Here is what the foliage looks like from the run off of that spraying.









Another one where the Aspen is damaged as well as spots of evergreens. The whole canyon is like this.









Newer spraying where FS 011 comes off of 005. I can't tell what hey were spraying at the base of this curl leaf mahogany, but you can see the green dye towards the bottom of picture.









As you head further up 011 into the firs. You can see the dye on the pine tree, and the sprayed plants just starting to turn. 









Treated shrubs on the road side that have been heavily fed on. The cattle have not been on here for weeks. There are fresh deer tracks on this.









This project is stopped right here because of a broken down grader. If they continue this up the mountain they will get into some of the last good sage grouse populations left in the area.

Heading back out One mile, I spotted this deer feeding in the treated stuff.









And this one just heading off of treated thistle. It was not deer:30 so I did not see a lot of deer.









Side track: My good deed for the day.

















This Broad winged hawk needed a ride some where.









Just North of Tremonton, where all the deer come off the hill side and come down into the ag fields. They have to get across the treated roadside of 84, to get to this.









He turned it sideways, looked at me, and went an set it down.









I made a partial run up through the regular route, and saw this guy with a drop tine/kicker, it can't seem to decide.









There are lots of these Forest Service road projects going on. I just got word about a few more. I will check them out next week if I can find the time.


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## Lonetree

I just got this: http://www.organicauthority.com/str...ney-pesticide-residue-widespread-study-finds/

So I figured I should include this picture from today as well.


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## Lonetree

On the way down to the Wildlife rehabilitation center with that Broadwing, er uh, Swainson's hawk. And birds use to be my thing growing up.



















This is at the mouth of Ogden canyon. Deer come off the hills side to water right here. UDOT treats the other side of the river. When I say this is everywhere and we are in a build up and expansion of use, I am very serious.


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## Lonetree

New spot. This is a Forest Service road in Northern Utah that has had some road work done.

First thing I see a few hundred yards down it is this little asymmetrical spike right on the road.









A little ways past him in a turn out is some of the first signs of spraying.









Just starting to turn. This is all pretty fresh.









Deer eating dirt on the road.









Deer coming off of a large disturbed site that has been treated. This was treated earlier this year.









Treated weeds.









Headed down to see what those other two were doing, and find several of these on the road side.









The spot where the two were licking the road. Notice the blue hue to the road, that's the dye from the herbicide spray. The red dirt is where they have been digging in it.









These guys showed up on the sky line, coming from the big disturbed area where I spooked the doe. 









Put a stock on this one when he split off from the rest.









More treated stuff on the way back down the hill from the stalk. This is a grazing allotment, and there is lots of spot treatments within 50-100 yards of the road. 









Most of this is so new, it will be hard to tell just how much was treated for a few weeks. But if you see your local FS road has had a blade across it, its been sprayed too. Last time I saw this road this nice was back in.......


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## Lonetree

The Forest Service area in Box Elder County I documented the other day was being treated under a 2013 plan. Here is the proposal for an expansion of that plan: http://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=47151 This is only a month old, some one has some money to spend.

This area falls within the Sawtooth national Forest, Minidoka ranger district. They propose to treat 16,000 acres with herbicides. 8000 by ground, and 8000 by air.

Here is a list of the herbicides currently being used, and proposed to be used in the expansion. Along with their affects on wildlife.

*2,4-D*: Testicular atrophy and thyroid disruption. Thyroid disruption and selenium deficiencies go hand in hand.

*Aminopyralid*: This is relatively new, it remains active and kills plants in manure after animals eat it.

*Chlorsulfuron*: Testicular atrophy. Reduced fecundity. Thyroid disruption. This is the first of the sulfonylurea herbicides introduced 30 years ago. http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/10-lander-wy/ This stuff acts on the pancreas and induces insulin resistance. You find copper deficiencies and copper/manganese imbalances in animals exposed to sulfonylureas, as well as selenium deficiencies.

*Clopyralid*: Reduced fecundity, and birth defects. The birth defects include delayed bone formation in the skull(under bites)

*Dicamba*: Works synergistically with 2,4-D. Reduced fecundity(miscarriage). Damages DNA, and is a carcinogen.

*Glyphosate*: This stuff is safe, just ask anyone here or at the DWR

*Imazapic*: Same mode of action as sulfonylureas.

*Imazapyr*: Same mode of action as sulfonylures.

*Imazamox*: Same mode of action as sulfonylures

*Metsulfuron methyl*: Same mode of action as sulfonylures.

*Picloram*: Reduced fecundity. Birth defects(cleft palate, which is related to under bites) synergistic with 2,4-D

*Sulfometuron methyl*: Same mode of action as sulfonylures.

*Tryclopyr*: Kills beneficial microorganisms and reduces the ability of plants to uptake nutrients. Reduced fecundity, and skeletal abnormalities.

This is the current state of wildlife and wild lands "management". What excuse do you think we will be fed when every is collapsed a few years from now?

HERE IS A PLACE TO COMMENT ON THIS: https://cara.ecosystem-management.org/Public//CommentInput?Project=47151


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## Elkoholic8

Great work Lone Tree. Do you know if these chemicals affect the meat? A few years back I shot a 3x2 on the muzzleloader hunt in mtn green area, close to the trappers loop road. This buck was in full velvet, had no tail (just a small nub , and only had 1 testicle. While butchering the meat I noticed a bunch of little white spots with a fluid sack around them (about the size and make up of a tomato seed). I called the dwr to ask about it, and they said it was a parasite commonly found in livestock, but could be passed to deer and elk through saliva. Probably happened at a water trough. 
A year or two after that one, i killed a 1x4 in the same general area. This was a spike with an eye guard growing out the back, a small splinter of an eye guard in the front, and a small fork at the top. No other abnormalities on him. 
I'm wondering if these deer were suffering from any of the chemicals you've mentioned. 

Sounds like it's time to get the dwr, forest service, Fed's on board with this poisoning problem! !


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## DallanC

Well I'm sold... pesticides = lots of deer... I'm going to spray the bejezus out of the brush around my salt licks.


-DallanC


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## Lonetree

Elkoholic8

The parasites: Page 10 post 4 of this thread. Did it look like this: http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=disease.muscle1

This does not happen at water troughs. I don't listen to much of what the DWR has to say about much of anything anymore.

Trappers loop area: I have not looked at the area since last year, but last spring I found several under bites, and testicular anomalies. At the bottom of this page http://rutalocura.com/deer deer #7 was a road kill on Trappers loop, just North of the Snow Basin turn off. It has a micro penis and abnormally developed testicles and scrotum.

There has been some massive spaying in this area, much of it on private cattle ranches(Weber and Morgan counties). But all of the roads have been sprayed, with this year being the worst. Some of these ranchers(that have been spraying) have had the worst calving season they have ever seen this spring with still birth rates as high as 40%. These herbicide exposed cattle are showing up selenium deficient, and they are being supplemented with massive amounts of selenium.

Here is what some of that spraying looks like. The striation and lines are from aerial applications to remove brush. With beef prices being what they are, there has been a lot of this the past few years.









It all sounds par for the course. The asymmetry is thyroid related. Most of these compounds induce thyroid disease. As far the meat being affected, its affected. I have spoke with multiple University toxicologists that won't say anything about safety of the meat. In the case of a deer with congenital hypothyroidism, I don't think you are at any risk of herbicide exposure, but I can't say with any certainty about other scenarios. I have been eating herbicide exposed deer for at least 4 years at this point. This predates the birth of my youngest son, and does concern me, because its development that is the most affected. My kids eat organic beef, no more wild game at this point.


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## Lonetree

This is not easy subject matter, some people get confused. They don't know what they are looking at, especially with regard to wildlife. Happens with alot of green horn hunters that can't find any deer anywhere. They just don't know where to look, or anything about deer really. With out enough resource classes in the public schools, and parents that don't reinforce reading and math skills, the deficits in comprehension of these sorts of things are bound to happen to some.


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## MuscleWhitefish

Lonetree said:


> Yeah, near the spring where FS Rd xxx crosses(I don't want to hotspot this). I was all over that side of things this spring, last year, and the year before(had an antelope tag), and did not see this kind of activity. And then out of the blue it started getting lots of traffic. I did find an antelope with messed up hooves last spring about 2 miles East of there. The Ruby pipeline parallels this stretch of road as well. And there is some potentially concerning stuff to the North, but nothing confirmed at this point.
> 
> We had this submission last year, I'm pretty sure they said it was the same county, but now that I'm looking for it, I'm not seeing it.


This would be a dream antelope for me. I like the ones with the crazy horns.

Thanks for putting all the information together.


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## Lonetree

I really like the funky stuff. But I hate the population collapses that follow.


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## Lonetree

I went to checkout another Forest Service road. There was equipment, but no work had been done yet. So on the way back I hit the spot where the deer elk and sage grouse come in.

So I'm set up waiting for deer or elk or antelope or sage grouse to come in, and nothing. Then some movement catches my eye quite a ways up the valley on the road side. Its the same bachelor group that came into the newly found magnesium lick the other night. And they are only about 200 yards from that lick, so I head over there.









They are moved off the road side by the time I get there. The black is the deer, the red is treated vegetation on the road side.









So I get down into the spots they were on when I first saw them, and it is lots of treated vegetation. And they are not just eating the vegetation, they are pawing around in the dirt at the bases of these plants. 


















Seeing as how this relates to sage grouse as well, do you think I can get the Legislature to reimburse my fuel? Asking too much?


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## Lonetree

I'm pretty sure this one jumped in front of a car intentionally. He has an over bite, and he is cryptorchid. His testicles are ectopic(undescended, and still in the body cavity), and his scrotum is not developed. 



























This one is nice and symmetrical, with big cactus bases. I have money that says he is cryptorchid, or his testicles are atrophied. 


















This 3x4 was hit on a treated road side. Some of the treated vegetation is circled in red. That's one of things that bring them down onto the road.









He does have a normal bite, and normal incisors though. 









Road killed age grouse with treated sagebrush in the background.









The sagebrush.









Elk near a treated pipe line.


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## Lonetree

This one looks normal right?









More nice symmetry.









Interesting, its his left side that is weak too. And he has a fibroma on his chest.









I guess everyone is weak on the left side.









So we see the same thing 150 miles from here as well. You don't think its because of all of the herbicides used on the "habitat projects" do you? The view from 100 yards from these deer, down onto the winter range. There have been square miles of cedars taken out, and lots of herbicides sprayed to counter the ensuing weed infestations. Those rows are piles of junipers that were taken out.









If this one stays on my spot through October, I might take him home.









What do ya know, this one is weak on the left as well. 









Found these two guys feeding on treated fence lines on the way home.









Roses? Better kill those. For the sake of the wildlife......


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## Vanilla

Took the kids up to Cascade Springs last weekend. I noticed a good amount of treated vegetation on the sides of the road on the Alpine Loop on the way up from Provo Canyon. We didn't see any deer, but it was the middle of the day and 95 degrees.


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## Lonetree

Vanilla said:


> Took the kids up to Cascade Springs last weekend. I noticed a good amount of treated vegetation on the sides of the road on the Alpine Loop on the way up from Provo Canyon. We didn't see any deer, but it was the middle of the day and 95 degrees.


This year everything is getting sprayed heavier than in years past, so its much more noticeable. I thought last year was a big increase, but it pales in comparison to the spraying this year. I'm hearing the same thing about places in ID, MT, and WY as well.

Here is the ridiculous part of road side spraying. It is done in many cases to create a lane for drivers to see wildlife entering the highway, with the goal of reducing auto/wildlife accidents. Yet the treated vegetation draws in the deer, and increases accidents. And deer that are affected by herbicides stick around on the road side to lick salt and magnesium chloride further concentrating deer on the road side, and causing more accidents.

I way under estimated road side mortality. The number of 20,000 a year killed on Utah highways is probably a conservative estimate. If you walk high risk sections of road there are a lot of dead deer that make it 20-50 yards off the side of the road, that never get counted with those 20,000.


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## Dunkem

We were up around Eden last week and we counted 3 trucks with sprayers on them just sitting in different areas.


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## Lonetree

Dunkem said:


> We were up around Eden last week and we counted 3 trucks with sprayers on them just sitting in different areas.


The picture in this thread of the Trees Inc truck is at the Maverick in Eden. They have the Rocky Mountain Power contract, and were just finishing spraying I will document at a later date. The Ogden Valley is ground zero for a lot of this. The county got money, so they have increased spraying on county roads. Same goes for UDOT and all the state roads. Then there is the power line right of way that runs over North Ogden divide(cactus bucks all over in North Ogden) and up through the Middle Fork WMA. It has been sprayed several times on several sections over the last few years. Lots of ground work at Powder Mountain and Nordic Valley with lots of spraying there as well. And then you have several cattle ranches to the East end of the valley that have been spraying to remove brush.

This buck was at the Wheeler creek trail head, across from the water treatment plant. A lot of these pictures are from Ogden Valley, and nearby.









There has been a lot of work at the treatment plant, and all disturbed dirt was sprayed. Most of Ogden canyon has been sprayed. This includes the road, some power lines, and sections of the pipeline that run down the canyon on the North side.

I could be wrong, but I'm thinking half a penis, and your testicles grown sideways is a bad thing?

Most deer seen with these testicular birth defects have asymmetrical, and abnormal antler development, with some of them also having under bites. But most under bites are found in does in the same areas. This is a piece of the high buck to doe ratios.


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## Iron Bear

Lonetree said:


> I way under estimated road side mortality. The number of 20,000 a year killed on Utah highways is probably a conservative estimate. If you walk high risk sections of road there are a lot of dead deer that make it 20-50 yards off the side of the road, that never get counted with those 20,000.


Baseless!

No evidence what so ever to get to 20k.

Never in history has 20k deer died on Utah's roads.

What percentage of accidents with deer result in death or injury to a person? How many people die per yr in deer car accidents?

How many insurance claims are made in Utah per year as a result of deer being hit? About 2000 is the highest it ever been. Ever!

So only one in 10 drivers are making a claim when they hit a deer? I doubt that.

Fact is its not speed or amount of traffic that dictates how many deer are being hit. But the amount of deer present. More deer equals more roadkill. So roadkill is lower today then it was in the 80s.


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## DallanC

Iron Bear said:


> How many insurance claims are made in Utah per year as a result of deer being hit? About 2000 is the highest it ever been. Ever!
> 
> So only one in 10 drivers are making a claim when they hit a deer? I doubt that.


I've never, ever turned in a claim after hitting a deer. Damage caused wasn't worth the deductible. Haven't hit very many ... but I have hit several 

-DallanC


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## Iron Bear

The 20,000 is not a count either. Just another flawed estimation. Some fools have tried to estimate it as high as 70k per yr. 

20k is 50 deer a day. Not really because most roadkill happens in the winter when deer are down by the roads. So more like 80 or so a day in the winter months. That is really laughable. 

Again there are plenty of reliable statistics to show thee aren't 50 to 80 cars being dented up a day. The auto insurance industry wouldn't stand for it.


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## utahgolf

Iron Bear said:


> The 20,000 is not a count either. Just another flawed estimation. Some fools have tried to estimate it as high as 70k per yr.
> 
> 20k is 50 deer a day. Not really because most roadkill happens in the winter when deer are down by the roads. So more like 80 or so a day in the winter months. That is really laughable.
> 
> Again there are plenty of reliable statistics to show thee aren't 50 to 80 cars being dented up a day. The auto insurance industry wouldn't stand for it.


I just don't understand why they don't move the deer crossing signs away from populated areas.. That would solve everything.


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## Lonetree

Iron Bear said:


> The 20,000 is not a count either. Just another flawed estimation. Some fools have tried to estimate it as high as 70k per yr.
> 
> 20k is 50 deer a day. Not really because most roadkill happens in the winter when deer are down by the roads. So more like 80 or so a day in the winter months. That is really laughable.
> 
> Again there are plenty of reliable statistics to show thee aren't 50 to 80 cars being dented up a day. The auto insurance industry wouldn't stand for it.


I've seen 20 come off of a 10 mile section of I-80 in two days, they remove them by the trailer loads. Depending on the area, the contractors pick up 3 times a week, and use tandem axle trailers for the high frequency areas.

The deer are drawn to the roads, which like you said drives mortality. And many of these roads see all of their mortality in the spring and summer. You sound like me a few years ago. Spend some serious time looking at road kill on roads, and you will change your tune. Just one 50 mile section that I am on almost every day, has at least one mortality every other day, do the math. I know of a shorter stretch in Montana that sees 2 deer a day hit all year long. Where I use to live in Cache valley, there were 1-2 deer hit every day, all year long on my route to work. I had a neighbor that had hit 4 in one year.

Over the last decade me and wife have hit 4 deer, only one was an insurance claim.


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## Lonetree

More nice symmetry


















More geophagia.


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## Iron Bear

So Dallan has hit several and never made a claim and LT has hit 4 and one claimed 1. That antidotal evidence is still a far cry from 1 in 10 being reported. 

You guys love to site studies. 

Do some research. It's been studied time and time again. In the name of public/hwy safety. USU are the ones that have tried to put roadkill as a limiting factor to the statewide deer herd.


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## Lonetree

"Baseless!

No evidence what so ever to get to 20k.

Never in history has 20k deer died on Utah's roads*"--*Iron Bear*

In 2008 there were 4209 road killed deer collected.* http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13982844 *That is real deer that were actually collected*, *and reported, not estimated*. That's more than twice as many as you claim are reported to insurance companies. We only had 275,000 deer in 2008, so mortality will have increased since then. In two stretches of highway I look at regularly, for every deer picked up, they miss 1-2 more that made it a significant distance from the road.

Contractors in Utah county have put in requests at a waste transfer station to dispose of 50-100 road killed deer a month. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/528242/DISPOSAL-WOES-KILL-COMPETITION-OLD-FIRM-GETS-ROAD-KILL-CONTRACT.html?pg=all That is 600 to 1200 road kills a year just for one contracted section of road in Utah County. Deer are not actively collected everywhere.

"What percentage of accidents with deer result in death or injury to a person? How many people die per yr in deer car accidents?"--Iron Bear Answer: 4-8 deaths per year in Utah.

"Fact is its not speed or amount of traffic that dictates how many deer are being hit. But the amount of deer present. More deer equals more roadkill. So roadkill is lower today then it was in the 80s"--Iron Bear

The fact is that deer, elk, bighorn sheep, antelope, and moose were not concentrated on the highway in the 1980s like they are now. Because of increased herbicide use, and the resulting mineral draw, they are concentrated on the road side. Look at Thompson Falls Montana bighorn sheep, as just one extreme example of this: http://www.mdt.mt.gov/other/research/external/docs/research_proj/BIGHORN_SHEEP-HWY_200-2013.PDF These sheep hang out on the side of the road licking salt off the road. And just like Utah highways with high mortality, this area has multiple right of ways that come through the area, that are sprayed with herbicides. There are pictures in the report of the cleared power line right of ways. And researchers in Montana have documented the associated malformations in this area as well.

And just like in Thompson Falls, when they completed highway work, vehicle mortality increased near Jordanelle: http://www.cnr.usu.edu/files/uploads/faculty/Bissonette/bissonette%20mule%20deere.pdf It increased from 12 deer per year to 174 deer. This is because they use a ton of herbicides on any disturbed soils during and after construction, which draws these deer in.

Highway mortality, is driven by the same pesticide use that causes the malformations that I and others document. You treat highways with herbicides, it draws in deer. The affected deer then stick around on the highway to lick salt(magnesium chloride and other minerals) which keeps them in proximity to the road, which drives vehicle mortality. On many of these treated sections of highway, deer densities drop, the further you get from the road.

I am actually doing research, on paper, and in the field. I'm not just clicking like on internet posts.


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