# Lahontan Trout of Pyramid lake.



## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

So I have been researching these and was wondering if any of you guys know much about them. I am also wondering why the DWR chooses the Bear lake strain and doesnt try to plant the Lahontan in lakes with chubs they are trying to control. My goal in life is an 8-10 pound cut but 40! _(O)_ That would be nuts. Here is some stuff on them ya'll might like....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahontan_cutthroat_trout
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIS1tt8o ... re=related


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## great googly moogly (Jan 26, 2008)

yeah theyre beautiful fish, used to catch em at walker lake.. its a great representation of how 'water rights' killed the west . . . here youve got one of the 2 or 3 deep water desert lakes in the world, holding two unique types of fish.... but somebody growing garlic in the brush has more importance . . 

all the sacremento perch died off in walker lake in the 60's - we all missed that


but you can go and spend money on the piute fishing license and catch some at pyramid still . . .

ggm


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

great googly moogly said:


> yeah theyre beautiful fish, used to catch em at walker lake.. its a great representation of how 'water rights' killed the west . . . here youve got one of the 2 or 3 deep water desert lakes in the world, holding two unique types of fish.... but somebody growing garlic in the brush has more importance . .
> 
> all the sacremento perch died off in walker lake in the 60's - we all missed that
> 
> ...


Mr. moogly...a correction:

The word is spelled *PAIUTE...!!*

Thank you......


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## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

> My goal in life is an 8-10 pound cut


thats your goal in life??? i would probably make it a goal for the summer or one fishing trip, not your whole life :mrgreen:


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## great googly moogly (Jan 26, 2008)

thanks .45


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

deadicated1 said:


> > My goal in life is an 8-10 pound cut
> 
> 
> thats your goal in life??? i would probably make it a goal for the summer or one fishing trip, not your whole life :mrgreen:


Well its one of them. Ha ha But seriously, I talk to a lot of people, I fish a lot and I am on here constantly. In all that time I have seen one in that range and heard of one more. Pretty good goal if you ask me. This would eat all the fish I have caught up there and it was only 8 pounds :shock: 
[attachment=0:73kvvfoy]Original.jpg[/attachment:73kvvfoy]
Hopefully hookjaw doesn't care I used his photo...


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## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

Nor-tah said:


> deadicated1 said:
> 
> 
> > > My goal in life is an 8-10 pound cut
> ...


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

I am by no means an expert on Lahontan Cutthroats nor am I a biologist but I, too, have been very interested in thier saga and have been following it over the years. The first I heard of them was many years ago when I read an article in a local paper about a significant scientific discovery. The historic and famous fish from Pyramid Lake were thought to be extinct. I think the fish that have been restocked from Simmit Lake are hybredized distant decendents of those orignal Lahontans. But a graduate student from BYU (I am sorry but I cannot remember his name) found in his research that Lahontan Cutthroats from Pyrimid Lake were stocked in various places around the west includding in some small very remote streams along the Utah/Nevada border. Some of these streams were so remote that they could have mantained a "pure strain". Sure enough he found what apeared to be pure Lahontan Cutthroats in a very small remote stream in western Utah ( I think somewhere around Pilot Peak). I have been told that the UDWR has place some of these fish in a "holding pond" somewhere in remote western Utah. An interesting side note is that though the fish in the small streams were all very small, reportedly the fish in that holding pond displayed the same growth potential as their ancestors. This suggests that they have not lost their genetic potential to achieve very large size. It suggests further that habitat is as important to growth as genetics. As far as stocking these "pure" Lahontans is concerned I have heard that there may be a problem cerifying the fish in that holding pond "desease free". This is old information and I have not heard anything recent. But if we keep the thread open long enough, maybe one of the Hepworth boys will notice it and chime in with some knowedgable and updated information. Powerbait......paging Powerbait! One other thought that I have mentiioned before on this site is that if the Lahontan Cutthroats have not lost their genitic potential to get very big, would there be enough genitic potential for large growth left in the Bonneville Cutthroats along the Wasatch Front from thier ancestors from Utah lake to get very big if placed in favorable habitat?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

http://www.fws.gov/nevada/protected_spe ... l_trit.pdf

Read the above information; it has a wealth of information about lahontans. From what I understand--and that isn't a lot--most of the research and understanding of the lahontans regarding the Pilot Peak fish is still pretty new and in its infancy. What is known is that these fish are showing little variance from the original lahontans that grew large and they have shown incredible growth rates in ponds where stocked. Their full potential may not be recognized because the environmental/habitat conditions in Pyramid Lake have changed significantly and may not allow it. Also, it is not known what kind of sizes they will attain...we just have to wait and see.

A sample from the above information: "The question of whether transplanted populations retain the genetic and ecological characteristics of the extirpated Pyramid Lake and Lake Tahoe populations can only be made based on a combination of scientifically peer 
reviewed genetic research, population viability analysis, and strain evaluation programs. Preliminary genetic research indicates that Pilot Peak LCT, collected from Morrison Creek and LCT from Edwards Creek in the Desatoya Mountains, are closely related to the Macklin Creek population, a known Lake Tahoe strain. This relation provides strong evidence for 
Truckee River basin origins of Pilot Peak and Edwards Creek LCT. Strain evaluation and performance studies will be conducted within the scientific framework to determine which strains exhibit known Truckee River basin lacustrine life history characteristics such as large size (Behnke1992 and 1993), longevity (Benke 1992), and age at sexual maturity (Calhoun 1942, Lea 1968, King 1982). (For full description of the genetics issues, refer to 
Appendix G)."

As far as stocking them in Strawberry or in reservoirs to control chubs goes, I can only speculate. My guess is that they aren't considered an option because of the desire to reestablish populations of native fish and lahontans are not native to Utah. Also, the DWR's ability to stock lahontans would be directly tied to their ability to get eggs and grow the fish. Right now, we have no brood stock program for lahontans and would have to establish one.


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## JAT83 (Sep 9, 2007)

I wouldn't mind hooking into one of those and add another one to the list!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

The issue of Utah stocking Lahontan cutthroat has little to do with genetic purity, growth size, availabilty, or anything else of that nature.

It has to do with native species. Lahontan's are not native to Utah, and therefore Utah has little interest in stocking them in Utah. Utah has native populations of Bonneville, Colorado River cutthroat that are already being threatened by non-native species. To start stocking Lahontan cutthroat trout would further jeopardize any progress the UDWR has done to restore those other species of cutthraot trout.

The same logic could be said for why Nevada isn't interested in starting any colorado river cutthroat populations in the pyramid lake area. Introducing non-native species that have the potential to cross-breed with a possibly threatened native species isn't going to happen whether you are in Utah, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, or anywhere else. Native species are simply too important.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

PBH said:


> The issue of Utah stocking Lahontan cutthroat has little to do with genetic purity, growth size, availabilty, or anything else of that nature.
> 
> It has to do with native species. Lahontan's are not native to Utah, and therefore Utah has little interest in stocking them in Utah. Utah has native populations of Bonneville, Colorado River cutthroat that are already being threatened by non-native species. To start stocking Lahontan cutthroat trout would further jeopardize any progress the UDWR has done to restore those other species of cutthraot trout.
> 
> The same logic could be said for why Nevada isn't interested in starting any colorado river cutthroat populations in the pyramid lake area. Introducing non-native species that have the potential to cross-breed with a possibly threatened native species isn't going to happen whether you are in Utah, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, or anywhere else. Native species are simply too important.


I appreciate the wise words and I very much agree. The only question that still exists is why the DWR stocks, Grayling, Brookies, Tiger Muskies, Northers and the other non native species then. Not trying to start and argument it just seems like they are stocking non natives already (Tigers in Pineview). Do you see what I mean? I guess its just a selfish desire to want LCs in Strawberry when I dont know the biological aspect of it.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Some good points Nor-tah. I don't want to speak for PBH but I read his post just a little differently. I think he ment the DWR was more concerned with non-native CUTTHROATS that would have a propensity to hybredize with native cuthroats. Brook, grayling, tiger musky, Etc. do not hybredize with cutthroats. Also there seems to me to be a change in thinking and policy over the years. It seems to me that the DWR as well as the public in general are much more concerned with the protection and restoration of native species now than they were 50 or 70 years ago. I also think they have learned from past mistakes. I would bet the farm that if the choice were to be made today the DWR might have reservations about the introduction of Lake trout, brook trout, brown trout, walleye, perch, carp, and for that matter even rainbow. This is evident buy the increased use of tiger trout and steril rainbows for put and take stocking that are easier to controle and do not hybredize with native species. But this was not the case many years ago. If the choice of stocking Layhontan Cutthroat in strawberry was proposed 70 years ago it might have been a different story. Isn't that how they got to Pilot Peak in the first place?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

campfire said:


> I think he ment the DWR was more concerned with non-native CUTTHROATS that would have a propensity to hybredize with native cuthroats. Brook, grayling, tiger musky, Etc. do not hybredize with cutthroats.


that's it exactly. Grayling will not cross with cutthroat, and are used primarily in areas that do not support cutthroat. Northern pike are not stocked (or in very limited quantities in special areas where escapement to other systems is not a threat). Tiger Muskies are sterile (and are currently not being stocked due to inavailability). Brook trout do get stocked, but they do not pose a hybridizing threat to cutthroat. They do, however, pose a competition threat. On Boulder mountain, brook trout have been renovated from numerous lakes and replaced with native cutthroat populations.

Like already mentioned, the biggest issue with Lahontan's is the threat to hybridize with Utah's native cutthroat. In areas where hybridization is not an issue, Utah would still be hesitant to introduce non-native cutthroat. They would prefer to use a strain of cutthroat native to Utah to expand their populations.

Lahontan's are great. I have nothing against them. If you want to fish for them, go to Nevada.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Perfect responses guys, thanks. That is true about interbreeding, I never thought about it like that. Its good to hear the real story. Well I would love to find out more about these fish so if anyone else wants to post about them feel free.


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## DocEsox (May 12, 2008)

Am new to the board....live in Alaska.....matriculated at BYU....class of 1980.....and still love to fish there when I can. Most of this response I made on another board while discussing the merits of restoring native trout.

If it weren’t for the enormous efforts of fisheries biologist in the last 50 years we wouldn’t have seen the restoration of trout species on the brink of extinction and some who were thought extinct. Successes have been found with the Bonneville Cutthroat (o. clarkii utah) and the Greenback Cutthroat (o. clarkii stomias)…both subspecies which were considered extinct. Certainly without intervention by fisheries experts the extremely rare Piaute Cutthroat (o. clarkii seleneris) would be gone and probably the relict population of original McCloud River Redbands from Sheepheaven Creek would be gone whereas now they can be fished for in a couple of headwater streams. Cutthroat trout have been eradicated from 97% of their native distribution in the US due to primarily introduction of nonnative trout species (and exacerbated by habitat loss and degradation). Is this because they are just poor survivors? Nothing could be farther from the truth as they are an older evolutionary species then rainbow and the only native trout species east of the Rockies in the United States. BUT they evolved in conditions where they were the apex predator and had no competition…their evolutionary background did not prepare them for direct competition from other salmonids within their ecosystems (the coastal cutthroat being an exception). Hence introduction of nonnative rainbow, brook and browns have nearly eradicated them. If you look at the United States as a whole virtually every water system east of the Mississippi doesn’t even resemble the original native ecosystem (before man)….is that due to poor ability to adapt….NOT... unfortunately it can be attributed to man’s consistent and continuing ignorant intervention. Look at the permanent destruction of the Pyramid Lake strain of Lahontan Cutthroats (the largest fish of any rainbow or cutthroat that has ever existed). The Truckee was damned and in 1938 everyone watched as the last remaining spawners died below the dam….these fish averaged 20 lbs apiece….would you not die to have a crack at those babies now? The human arrogance at the time was that these fish could be restored at anytime with any population of Lahontan cutthroat….turns out this was dead wrong. Only the Pyramid Lake strain had developed the long lived piscivorous behaviour pattern (predating on the abundant tui chub) which allowed such astounding growth. Whereas there were Lahontan cutthroats elsewhere none had developed the particular genetics and behaviours which allowed massive growth like the original Pyramid strain. 

In 1977 an isolated population (and subsequent discovery of two other small transplants) of pure LCT were located in the Pilot Peak area of Utah. Recent genetic analysis authorized by the feds and performed by Dr. Mary Pea**** of the University of Nevada, Reno have conclusively shown the pilot peak fish are essentially the same strain originally occurring in Pyramid Lake and the Truckee River.....this was done comparing them to museum collections of the original Pyramid Lake LCT. Some of the latest research on the Pilot Peak LCT.....genetic tests show them to be pure LCT...there is no rainbow introgression of their genome. Robert Behnke, recognized as the foremost authority on North American salmonids has researched these fish extensively. They were stocked during a period of time that only Pyramid Lake LCT were being raised by Nevada.....and their have never been any fish in their drainage. Early tests where they were put into ponds with more room and food showed excellent growth. As a result the Pilot Peak strain is now being raised in the Lahontan National Fish Hatchery and according to record 13,000 of these were stocked in Pyramid Lake in 2004...I could not find records for since then. Even the tribal elements have agreed if these produce larger LCT they would be on board. 

The current strain being stocked by the tribe was produced from primarily Summit Lake LCT and other sources which have a known introgression from rainbow trout. And despite the tribal hatcheries best efforts they can't get these fish much bigger than 10-15+ lbs. Will be interesting to see if the original stocking of Pilot Peak LCT start returning some bigger fish.....should take 6 or 7 years to get them up over 20 lbs....who knows maybe the big cutts are coming back.

Unfortuantely, the brood stock for Pilot Peak fish is not large as the small streams they come from put out only small numbers of fish from which to procure eggs from. It will be fascinating to see what happens.

Most western states have developed philosophies of attempting to restore native salmonids whereever feasible. As mentioned above, in the 1950'sthe Bonneville Cutthroat of Utah was thought to be extinct. Most of these states would not dream of stocking other than native salmonids in their waters. BUT there is a hue and cry for fish to catch and take so many waters will continue to be stocked with nonnative fish. Historically the Bear Lake strain of the BCT grew to nearly 30 lbs in Bear Lake. But competition for common food sources, especially from lake trout, keep this from occurring today. They do far better, size wise, in Strawberry.

Thanks for your idulgence.

Dr. Brian D. Wight

PS: The naysayers who feel that maybe the Pilot Peak LCT have lost their ability for huge growth need to understand that the 90 years they have been separated from Pyramid Lake is an insignificant amount of time for their innate adapability and characteristics to change....that would take thousands of years. Same is true of the BCT.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks Doc! That was a pretty good read. I have been sort of intrigued by the whole Lohontan Cutthroat thing since I first read about them in Rod and Reel magazine a few years ago. I was amazed at how they go to the fish. They would take a boat out into the lake until they found water that was 8 or so feet deep, then put an 8 foot ladder in the water, and step out onto the ladder and fish from there. They were catching some HOGS! Most of them were 25+ inches. Maybe someday we'll be doing that at Bear Lake or the Berry.


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