# Went to the range today...



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

To test out a few of my reloads. Results from the .243 and .270 were very mixed and not worth much discussion except to say that the lower powder charges actually performed better (and that some on some rounds the bolt was difficult to close)...not happy about that because I want to use a faster load overall.

The one interesting thing and item I have questions about is regarding my 7mm Rem Mag. I shot some Winchester Super X 150 factory rounds but all *my* loads were loaded to published minimums as follows:

Browning X-Bolt Stainless 26" 7mm Rem Mag
Once Fired Hornady Brass FL Resize
160 gr. Accubonds and Partitions
59gr. of IMR 4831
Fed 215 Mag Primers
Seated to 3.29" (as per Nosler guidebook)

The results were quite good on paper (except for those Super X rounds)...

160 gr. Accubonds @ 100yds.









160 gr. Partitions @ 100yds.









150gr. Win Super X Factory Loads @ 100yds.









So, it appears that my wish to accurately shoot 160gr. bullets out of this gun is going to work out well. However....

I noticed that all of the rounds shot from this rifle had flattened primers. Yes even the factory ones. It actually appears that the factory rounds flattened even more than my reloads. This is not good because all of these are loaded to the Nosler minimums that I was hoping to speed up a bit. My friends' 30-06 was also flattening every shot he took (Superformance 165gr. factory loads) from his Rem 700.

So, what do I do about the flattening of primers at even the minimum? Is it something to be concerned about? Here are some pics of the primers post shot...

Reloaded Federal 215









New vs. Fired Fed 215









Winchester factory loads post shot vs. new



























So...after this exhaustive post, what are the thoughts from the reloaders in here? Do I dare turn up the powder charge on these loads? Is it likely a headspace issue more than a pressure issue? If so, what can be done in either case?

Thanks,
KK


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Take a few cases fired in that chamber and neck size them. It may be that your chamber is a bit "sloppy" for lack of a better word. Your load is mild and should not be near maximum pressure. I would guess that your primer issue is a result of sizing/chamber mismatch. Beware that neck sized loads could fit a little tight when you chamber them. I'd try that and see if the flat primers don't go away.------SS


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I only own FL dies so I suppose I'll be investing in some neck only ones...see if that helps at all.


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## Mtngoat690 (Oct 29, 2014)

You can neck size with your FL sizer, just back it off a bit so that it just sizes the neck portion , but stops before it pushes the shoulder back. I have seen this before in the belted magnums and as SS mentioned it will might solve the problem.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Don't buy neck dies, use your FL like goat said. If you need help setting it up let us know.-----SS


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Yeah, I have no idea how to set it up that way. I'd assume you either crank the whole die way up or screw the decapping portion down way low ? I'll Google it. 

I have the Hornady dies BTW.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Set your FL die up like you would for normal FL resizing. Then back it off a turn. Size a case then inspect the neck. You should be able to see where the die stops sizing the neck as it will have a false shoulder that appears. Adjust the die back down slowly until you are just sizing the neck without sizing the shoulder of the case. That's the gist.------SS


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I also read that maybe smoking the neck (with a candle) would show how far down it's sizing. I'm concerned it's going to push the shoulder back though and I'll end up resizing the whole thing anyways....trial and error I guess.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Measure the difference between a fired case neck and a sized one. Typically a factory chamber will allow the neck to expand 10 thousandths or so. You should be able to visibly see where you are sizing and where you aren't. You may also see a line formed by the case lube if you look with a light. I have never had to smoke a case to do this. The whole idea is that you are only sizing enough of the case neck to provide tension to hold the seated bullet in place. 3/4 of the neck on a 7MM Rem Mag will accomplish this easily. 

If you find that this solves your primer flattening, the you can decide if you want to buy a neck sizer die or just continue partial sizing with the FL die.-----SS


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I tried it today but by the time I got the neck resized down to the shoulder it was pretty much all the way into the die. I'll just get a die that is designed to do this....right tool for the job and all that.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I neck size my 7RM with a Lee Collet neck die... Works great!


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> I tried it today but by the time I got the neck resized down to the shoulder it was pretty much all the way into the die. I'll just get a die that is designed to do this....right tool for the job and all that.


Nothing wrong with going the neck sizer die route at all, especially on the magnums with the short necks. The rule of thumb for bullet engagement in the neck is one caliber length. That's not going to happen on a 7mm mag or the 300 Win Mag, so I don't worry about that, I just try to squeeze the neck down as far as I can, a little bit at a time, without pushing on the shoulder. I resize my 7mm mags with a RCBS FL but use a RCBS neck size die for the 300 Win Mag and 257 Weatherby Mag.

Although once you run a bunch neck sizing with a FL die is easy, like SS alluded to. So don't give up on doing it that way with longer necked ammo.

I reload obsolete cartridges and for a variety of reasons neck sizing may be the best option for old firearms that may have worn or over-sized chambers. But neck sizing dies for obsolete cartridges are custom made, very expensive, and take forever to get from the die-maker so I use a FL die to neck size. After you run a number of them you can get a "feel" for what the sizing "ring" will look like on the neck. My eyesight could be better so if I can't see it I'll go to a case that's dull or I'll put a Sharpie mark on it.

blah, blah, blah, good luck


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Get a candle and smoke the case neck before you place it into the die and press the case into it a fraction at a time. This will tell you where the die is sitting as you screw the die down.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> Get a candle and smoke the case neck before you place it into the die and press the case into it a fraction at a time. This will tell you where the die is sitting as you screw the die down.


Yeah, we, the OP, already went over that.

.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> Yeah, we, the OP, already went over that.
> 
> .


That is what happens when you don't pay attention or get old......but I forget, what was the subject? -O,-


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Try it this way:

Take a fired case and just start the resizing die onto the case

Then try the case in the rifle that you shot it out of. The bolt should be difficult if not impossible to close. 

Re-lube the case and move the die down 1/4 of a turn. 

Then try the case again. 

Do this until the bolt closes with a slight amount of effort but easy enough that force is not needed. 

Size another case this way and check it. If cambering it is the same then lock down the sizing die and go to reloading a few rounds to check at the range.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I smoked a case, watched the resizing line move down the neck until it was almost on the shoulder. However, by that time the whole case was up inside the die so I feel it pretty much got FL sizing.

I'll find a neck sizing die instead. Probably the Lee Collet die from what I've been reading.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

When you are just neck sizing and using a full length sizing die you are talking fractions of a inch between neck sizing and full length sizing, and the case will be 99.99% into the sizing die if you are just neck sizing.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I don't see a problem with your primers at all. Just judging from the pictures you should be able increase your loads quite a bit. Just go slow and watch for other signs of pressure.
And for havens sake, you can most certainly use your FL dies to neck size only. Read the instructions that came with the dies or get on line and read how to do it. The instructions that came with all manufactured dies explain this very simple procedure...it is not more difficult to set up your dies to do this than to it is to set them up for full length.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> I don't see a problem with your primers at all. Just judging from the pictures you should be able increase your loads quite a bit. Just go slow and watch for other signs of pressure.
> And for havens sake, you can most certainly use your FL dies to neck size only. Read the instructions that came with the dies or get on line and read how to do it. The instructions that came with all manufactured dies explain this very simple procedure...it is not more difficult to set up your dies to do this than to it is to set them up for full length.


I was going to say the same thing and then I looked closer at the last picture in his original post and could see the primers were mushroomed, although I've seen that or worse on some factory ammo in a new rifle. Looking at the spent primer as it sits in the casing it doesn't look all that bad to me either.

.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

The instructions that came with the dies suck. I don't know if they sent the wrong ones or not but whatever, I'm intelligent enough to figure it out. My issue may be too much thinking/worrying on the subject but when things could explode right next to my face I get a bit concerned.

This is a brand new rifle and factory rounds are flattening/mushrooming primers.

This is the case I "neck sized" you can clearly see where the smoke was scraped off by the die.









This is all that was left of the gap between the die and the shell holder:









I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around how I can push a case this far into a die and not have it be almost FL resized. The shoulder may not have been touched or changed (pushed back) but the sides of the case body most certainly would have been. When I hear the term "neck sizing only" I expect ONLY the neck to be changed.

I took some measurements on this case and compared them to a fired un-sized case and there are definitely some differences.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> The instructions that came with the dies suck. I don't know if they sent the wrong ones or not but whatever, I'm intelligent enough to figure it out. My issue may be too much thinking/worrying on the subject but when things could explode right next to my face I get a bit concerned.
> 
> This is a brand new rifle and factory rounds are flattening/mushrooming primers.
> 
> ...


Using the die set up like you are showing, as a neck sizer, size a case and then measure the case at a given point. Then full length size the same case and measure it again. Make sure the handle "cams over" when you FL size. (unless using a hand press)

I don't know at what point a neck sizing die on a 7mm mag or say 300 win mag starts to squeeze the case. Depends on the brass, and if used brass, the chamber it was fired in. Like I said these belted magnums have really short necks.

.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Kinekilla, that looks just about perfect. Congrats, wasn't too hard was it. Believe it or not but all the body re-sizing does take place in that last little bit of travel.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

A little bit more about neck sizing. If you only neck size, the ammo may not fit another rifle very well. If you are using the ammo for hunting, besure an try the neck sized ammo through the chamber of the rifle you intend on using. You don't want ammo that is hard to chamber when hunting. 
It really is not absolutely necessary that you size the neck completely down to the base of the neck. Some shooters might only size part of the way down, just enough to hold the bullet in place. Remember that that part of the un-re-sized neck is larger in diameter than the re-sized part( and the bullet) so it is not actually touching the bullet. Think about it.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Other than the practice and load development sessions at the range, all my rifles are used or intended to be used for hunting and are fed from a magazine.

I'll try to chamber this case without a bullet and see what it feels like, if all is well, perhaps I'll load it up as a dummy round and try it with the projectile sticking out. If still good then I'll load a few for a range session and see if it gets rid of the flat primer issue so I can feel more comfortable speeding up the round.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I know it's not feasible for high volume ammo production (.223 on a progressive), but I like to check the function of my loads before heading out to the range or in the field. I really don't ever notice neck sized ammo being harder to chamber. After a few firings, this can definitely occur, but then I know that it's time to FL size or just bump the shoulder back just enough to chamber easily again.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I neck sized some tonight, they chambered fast and easy both before and after sizing so that doesn't make much of a difference. They're loaded with 160gr Partitions and ready for the range.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Well, the neck sizing seems to have remedied the primer flattening but it severely affected accuracy/grouping. And not for the better. It was shooting 1-1.5" 5 shot groups but is now somewhere in the 2-2.5" range. Not a good trade off in my book.


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