# loose powder vs pellets?



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

just curious the advantages to shooting loose powder? I was thinking about shooting those white hots but have talked to more people that shoot loose powder than pellets and juts curious to the advantages? thanks for any info/opinions


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## RBoomK (Feb 10, 2011)

I've heard that you get a better burn, in addition to fine tweaking charge weight, which results in more consistent shots with the loose stuff, but haven't run any type of comparison between it and the pellets. I've only shot the 777 pellets out of my in-line (out of convenience) and they have performed so well that I haven't messed with anything else.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You get MUCH better control with loose powder. You can vary your burn rate according to grain size (FF vs FFF etc) as well as tuning your load by increments that pellets dont come in.


-DallanC


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

Yep. Like he said you can control your load better. I bought a magnum gun but got poor accuracy with three pellets and the bullets I use. so I started tinkering and now I use 120 grains by volume of pyrodex P and it shoots much better.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

RBoomK said:


> I've heard that you get a better burn, in addition to fine tweaking charge weight, which results in more consistent shots with the loose stuff, but haven't run any type of comparison between it and the pellets. I've only shot the 777 pellets out of my in-line (out of convenience) and they have performed so well that I haven't messed with anything else.


I was just about to type the exact same post! I have got a pattern down to about 1-1/2", which I think is about as good as one can reasonably do without any magnification. Not to mention the need to get the other tools needed to be able to do the loose powder.


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## Latigo_allen (Apr 14, 2011)

I think it is a preference thing. I have killed deer with both, the deer couldnt tell the difference. Loose you get to fine tune your load, pellets drop'um in and shoot. If you got time try both and see if your gun favors one or the other, if not sight it in with your choice and go hunting.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> I was thinking about shooting those white hots...


READ THIS FIRST!
http://utahwildlife.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18201&p=204822&hilit=white+hots#p204822


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## timberbuck (May 19, 2010)

IMO the pellets are a no brainer if your gun shoots the charge weight and a bullet you are happy with. 

I have not changed my load in over 8 years of 3 pyrodex pellets and a barnes sabot.

ALso of little know note: In a .50 cal gun rated for 150 grains of powder the load of 3 50 grain original pyrodex pellets produces more velocity than any other maximum load of any other powder or pellet type.

Strive to find a max charge and bullet your gun likes and don't forget the original pyrodex pellets or powder.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

+1 to what timber said.

pellets are easier to deal with. fast consistent reloads are important to me.


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

I will ONLY use loose powder. I would challenge anyone using pellets to see if they can load their rifles any faster than I can with my speed loader filled with powder and my bullet. There really is no "speed" advantage. Pellets would provide one with the ability to just pick a couple pellets rather than measure it out. But who in their right mind is actually measuring out the powder on the mountain while hunting? I always do this at the convenience of my kitchen counter and prepare 3-5 quick loads, and another 6 or so pre-measured charges. Usually return from my hunting trip with all of my quick loads intact except one (always reload after the shot), and have one of the pre-measured charges empty (used to load the initial load).

Use whichever shoots best in your rifle. That said, as others have stated correctly, you WILL be able to "fine tune" your load most accurately using loose powder. With pellets, you are limited to ONLY the load you get with the pellet sizes- No other options. Also, 100 grains of pellets, is not the same as 100 grains of powder. If you disagree, look into it harder, you will see what I am saying. There is a reason why some of the muzzle loader mfg. recommend a Max load of 150 grains of pellets, but a max of only 120 grains of loose powder equivalent. 

So.....if you want to shoot the very best you and your rifle can, try powder. You MAY get that accuracy with a pellet, but you WILL get that accuracy with powder.

Remember, "Aim small, miss small". 

FH


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## RBoomK (Feb 10, 2011)

I'll stick with the pellets, but thanks for the boastful post. Just another "Whatever I think is great is; and everything else sucks."


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## timberbuck (May 19, 2010)

Another advantage of pellets is the consistent loading debth of your bullet/sabot. Pellets are also more fool proof when droping them down the bore and are at least as fast or faster than loose powder loads.

After every shot with loose powder it is more and more harder to seat the bullet/sabot to the needed debth (seating debth of a clean bore)for consistency.

When reloading with pellets there is room between the pellets and the bore for the fouling to go when seating the bullet/sabot in a dirty bore. It is simpler and faster to load a dirty bore with pellets, the consistent load debth of every shot with pellets may also increase the accuracy of your gun.

As far as velocity show me a 120 grain loose powder load that develops 2200 FPS with a 250 grain sabot.


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## bloodtrail (Sep 20, 2007)

I have been told from a gun smith that the third pellet in a magnum load is wasted as it is usually expelled from the barrel prior to burning. Anyone know if there is any validity to this claim. The same person said that the third pellet increases the chance of starting a grass fire.


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## timberbuck (May 19, 2010)

Thats bull*****

Has your gunsmith ever shot black powder rifles?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

bloodtrail said:


> I have been told from a gun smith that the third pellet in a magnum load is wasted as it is usually expelled from the barrel prior to burning. Anyone know if there is any validity to this claim. The same person said that the third pellet increases the chance of starting a grass fire.


It depends on your barrel length (longer barrels give more time to burn) but there is truth to it. People for years have known you can only burn X amount of Black powder. If you dont believe it go load up max charge of loose powder and shoot a round over some nice fresh white snow on a windless day. You will see all kinds of black powder flakes that didnt burn.

I like loose powder myself. I shoot 90grains for deer, 120 for elk. Its extremely accurate for me and any velocity gain from a stiffer load really doesnt matter at ML distances.

-DallanC


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Here is something I noticed just a couple days ago at the range. Both my buddy and I have Thompson Prohunters. His is the 28" fluted and I went with the 26" fluted weathershield barrel. He was shooting 100gr of loose Pyrodex select and I was shooting 2 50gr Pyrodex pellets. It was quite obvious to both of us that the loose powder was fouling his barrel far more then the pellets were mine. We judged this by running patches after the same amount of shots as well as how difficult it was to reload. I know some of loading issue may have to do with slight differences in the actual bore size but the difference in fouling was indisputable.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

As a side note, only load what it takes to push the bullet as far as you plan on shooting. In my opinion using 150gr per load on a deer sized target is just a waste of 50gr per shot. I was able to get pretty tight groups 3" high at 100 yards with 100gr of pellets and a 240gr XTP mag. This means I'm only about 4" low at 180 yards. Now with a 1x scope or lets pretend I was using open sights, bullet placement goes out the window. Beyond 180 you are just shooting in the direction of the animal. To load the extra 50gr so you might be able to be accurate out to beyond 200 yards is just silly and a waste of powder unless you hunt in a state where you can mount a 3x9 scope. Now I'm sure this is where we start hearing about all the 200, 300, 400 yard shots people have made with open sights and bad eyes lol.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I thundered mine last year @ 50 yards 

-DallanC


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

my problem is I hear about guys using 80 grains all the way up to 150. I always hear just shoot what your gun likes. well I haven't even shot my gun yet and know hardly anything about muzzleloaders, so how do I know what kind of punch/knock down power my gun load/bullet will have? say I get a great grouping with 80 grains of powder and go out hunting and just wound the deer? I'm thinking since I'm a newb I'm going to go with pellets. 777 and tinkering with 100 grains to 110 grains and try that barnes 250 grain bullet for deer. guess I'll see how it goes at the range and see what kind of grouping I can get. I appreciate all the info, by the end of shooting a bunch this summer hopefully I'll find a good set up. nothing is worse than heading out in the field and not being confident with your equipment.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Firehawk said:


> I will ONLY use loose powder. I would challenge anyone using pellets to see if they can load their rifles any faster than I can with my speed loader filled with powder and my bullet. There really is no "speed" advantage. Pellets would provide one with the ability to just pick a couple pellets rather than measure it out. But who in their right mind is actually measuring out the powder on the mountain while hunting? I always do this at the convenience of my kitchen counter and prepare 3-5 quick loads, and another 6 or so pre-measured charges. Usually return from my hunting trip with all of my quick loads intact except one (always reload after the shot), and have one of the pre-measured charges empty (used to load the initial load).


+1



> So.....if you want to shoot the very best you and your rifle can, try powder. You MAY get that accuracy with a pellet, but you WILL get that accuracy with powder.
> 
> FH


+2

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

utahgolf said:


> my problem is I hear about guys using 80 grains all the way up to 150. I always hear just shoot what your gun likes. well I haven't even shot my gun yet and know hardly anything about muzzleloaders, so how do I know what kind of punch/knock down power my gun load/bullet will have? say I get a great grouping with 80 grains of powder and go out hunting and just wound the deer? I'm thinking since I'm a newb I'm going to go with pellets. 777 and tinkering with 100 grains to 110 grains and try that barnes 250 grain bullet for deer. guess I'll see how it goes at the range and see what kind of grouping I can get. I appreciate all the info, by the end of shooting a bunch this summer hopefully I'll find a good set up. nothing is worse than heading out in the field and not being confident with your equipment.


Energy is Mass X Velocity... so you need to take your projectile weight and multiply it by velocity to get the energy. If you want to compute all of this stuff automatically I can suggest free ballistics software at: www.HuntingNut.com :O•-:

But a quick answer is yes, 80 grains is sufficient for a 50caliber rifle with even the smallest projectile for it (round ball @179 grains). For deer sized game, getting much over 90 grains doesnt gain you very much. I use a stiffer load when I shoot larger bullets for Elk sized game, just to keep those heavier bullets at the same velocity as my deer rounds so my trajectory is roughly the same.

-DallanC


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Here is a good tool not only for black powder but for any hand loader. http://www.handloads.com/calc/ What I have been able to find without to much variance is that 100gr of powder or pellets using a 240gr projectile out of a 26" barrel you get between 1700 to a little over 1800fps. Same projectile using up to 150gr puts your velocity in the 2000-2300 fps. Triple 7 is a hotter propellent and tends to keep you at the higher end of the scale as compared to the same weight charge of Pyrodex. Here is another page filled with useful info http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

thanks for the links. I'll be reading them tonight. I have a lot to learn about this stuff.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Years ago a really knowlegable guy named BlueElk wrote a bunch of guides for Muzzleloading. He died of Cancer back in 2004 or 2005? Anyway a few of us archived his articles to help others. Here is a link to his articles, its a good and recommended read for someone new to smokepoles.

http://huntingnut.com/index.php?name=Ne ... cle&sid=23

-DallanC


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## timberbuck (May 19, 2010)

With a gun with good accuracy and the right sighting arrangement shooting 150 grains is not silly.

There is no good reason not to strive for 200 yard accuracy and power/flat trajectory.

Expensive yes but no more so than a good scope on your center fire are the battle proven and reliable Aimpoint red dot sights like the comp ml3,m3,comp c3 and 9000sc/9000L with 2 moa dots. Paralax free at any distance,extreme battery life/best diodes. The sights can not be beat for muzzloader accuracy-believe me I have tried many 1x scopes and they just can't compare with the aiming accuracy/sight picture of the aimpoint.

I shoot a 9 year old Austin&Halleck 420 LR with one of the Aimpoint sights.
My gun with this sight,150 grains of rs pellets,barnes expander or tmz prints sub 3 inch groups at 200 yards, its 4 inches high at 100 and only 2 inches low at 200yards

Hitting an 8 inch target at 200 yards is not a problem. Only under the worst light conditions would it become a problem (extreme bright light or extreme low light conditions when there is a loss of contrast between the animal and its surroundings).


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

DallanC said:


> It depends on your barrel length (longer barrels give more time to burn) but there is truth to it. People for years have known you can only burn X amount of Black powder.


If you put more powder in your gun you're going to burn more powder. Combustion does not stop after a certain amount "X" has been burned. Otherwise there would be no need for maximum load data. As you use more powder the efficiency does go down, and you will get more unburned powder. Think of the hopped up diesel trucks you see belching out a cloud of smoke (unburned fuel). They are making much more power than a stock truck but some of that extra fuel is unburned. So if you shoot 80 grains you may burn all of it but in order to burn 130 grains you have to load 150.



Bo0YaA said:


> In my opinion using 150gr per load on a deer sized target is just a waste of 50gr per shot. I was able to get pretty tight groups 3" high at 100 yards with 100gr of pellets and a 240gr XTP mag. This means I'm only about 4" low at 180 yards. Now with a 1x scope or lets pretend I was using open sights, bullet placement goes out the window. Beyond 180 you are just shooting in the direction of the animal. To load the extra 50gr so you might be able to be accurate out to beyond 200 yards is just silly and a waste of powder unless you hunt in a state where you can mount a 3x9 scope. Now I'm sure this is where we start hearing about all the 200, 300, 400 yard shots people have made with open sights and bad eyes lol.


If you are not comfortable shooting past 180 yards then you're right, a 150 grain charge would be a waste. But as Timber said there is nothing wrong with making yourself more proficient at longer distances. 200 yards is not a difficult shot for someone who practices out to 300. If you carry the right equipment such as rangefinder, tripod and drop chart, a 300 yard shot is very doable if a deer is stationary and clearly visible. Of course you need a gun with good optics and the right bullet with some poop behind it to shoot that far. 100 grains of powder with a pistol bullet is a short range recipe.

To comment on the original post, I think there are advantages to both loose powder and pellets. If you can get a load that you like with pellets they are a great way to go. Kind of expensive, but heck everything for a muzzleloader is expensive. If you need (or want) to tinker with your load a little more, or if you shoot a whole bunch and want to save money, loose powder is for you. I have shot hundreds of shots with each and I am using pellets right now because my gun shoots them well.


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

*GOEX FFF real black powder*. 95 grains of the stuff pushes a .535" ball as far as I need it to go.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

You can tweak your loads. You can customize your shots. You can...... at the range. In the real world, you might miss, I did, then was caught out in the open, laying flat on my back with a buck staring at me, but not knowing what I was. Couldn't put my gun vertical to pour down the powder,(did I mention in the real world there is always a breeze if not a wind blowing) so I am laying on my back, trying to pour loose powder down the barrel of a horizontal gun gun watching half of it trickle down on my chest. I empty the quick load, seat the bullet and move to shoot, knowing i was way short on powder and yup I missed bad. You see all that really accurate powder laying on my chest did little good. From then on it was pellets, and I found bullets to shoot it with that worked, not the other way around. Try loading your gun horizontally at the range and see how that goes, then try it with pellets and you'll use the pellets.


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## StillAboveGround (Aug 20, 2011)

I shoot more consistently with powder. One of the best explanations I heard was that pellets can "crunch" which leads to differences in spacing between powder and bullet.

Also am more consistent with 100 grains instead of the 150 grains I started with...

Best groups for me are shot with 100 grains powder and clean barrel between shots...

It's a pain, but gives me good groupings.

Also pack pellets as suggested for 2nd shot in the field.


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