# Drought/Short Season/Smaller Bag



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I know nobody wants to talk about a shorter season and smaller bag limits, but if the drought continues, I'm afraid this will become an issue. 
This is a good read...Duck Hunting Could Dry Up This Fall | Outdoor Life 
."With limited survey data, waterfowl managers may react by restricting both bag limits and season lengths for the 2022 season. That reduction, in turn, may surprise waterfowlers who have never hunted through 3-duck bags and 50-day seasons. Some may even leave the marsh altogether. "

Not sure how the Pacific Flyway season would be structured on dates and bag limits, but it wouldn't surprise me if we see some changes next year.


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. I'm hoping the rain we've been getting here in iron county fills up the few places I duck hunt.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

They were diverting water to Quichipa through most of these storms because of the silt load. Haven't driven out there though to see. It would be great to see it fill up again and attract waterfowl like it has in the past.


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

That would be nice. Quichapa 2019.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

With the small availability of shotgun shells at this time it would be good to see limits reduced and a shorter season. Need to save the birds as much as we can and hope we get weather to fill the marshes and nesting areas.


----------



## toasty (May 15, 2008)

That article was full of words like if, may, and possible. No data, just one guys opinion based on some interviews and was based on central region. The limits we have for pacific region are largely based on pond conditions in prairie region of Canada and Montana which are not facing significant drought conditions like we are. I just don't see the drought in the Great Basin having much affect on duck populations except maybe the few species that breed here. Availability of shotgun shells does not or should it have bearing on season or bag limits.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

toasty said:


> That article was full of words like if, may, and possible. No data, just one guys opinion based on some interviews and was based on central region. The limits we have for pacific region are largely based on pond conditions in prairie region of Canada and Montana which are not facing significant drought conditions like we are. I just don't see the drought in the Great Basin having much affect on duck populations except maybe the few species that breed here. Availability of shotgun shells does not or should it have bearing on season or bag limits.


I wasn't saying that the shotgun shell availability "SHOULD" have anything to do with bag limits or length of a season. If someone doesn't have cases upon cases sitting in the basement for waterfowl hunting, it would just be nice to know that you don't have to shoot 7 birds. I don't see why some brag about limits being filled every time they go out. It's like those individuals feel they have to do it or they're not successful. Doesn't matter to me what one hunter feels and does, it's there choice and if the law says you can take a full limit, and you want to do it....go ahead and do it. I've seen pics of birds piled up on a boat for a photo shoot and often ask myself..."how many of those birds are being consumed"? 

I lived for waterfowl hunting in my younger years and I was addicted. I still go out now but I really don't care if I kill a bunch of birds or shoot up a box of shells trying. I like to be out with the Kids and Grandkids spending time in the marsh and seeing them get excited.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

taxidermist said:


> I don't see why some brag about limits being filled every time they go out.


Of course you see it. You lived it in your younger years. It's part of the '5-Stages of a Hunter's life.' 

It's when you get to Stage 5 (like me & probably you), that you start to see that 'a full limit' isn't what the hunt is all about. On some of my most memorable/enjoyable hunts, a shot was never fired. The 'limit braggers' are firmly entrenched in Stage 2 or 3. Enventually, they, too, will see the light and move on to Stages 4 & 5. 😉


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

dubob said:


> Of course you see it. You lived it in your younger years. It's part of the '5-Stages of a Hunter's life.'
> 
> It's when you get to Stage 5 (like me & probably you), that you start to see that 'a full limit' isn't what the hunt is all about. On some of my most memorable/enjoyable hunts, a shot was never fired. The 'limit braggers' are firmly entrenched in Stage 2 or 3. Enventually, they, too, will see the light and move on to Stages 4 & 5. 😉


Reminds of many years ago when I belonged to a duck club in southern California. There was a 1 pintail limit, but there was alot at the club. People at work would ask me how was hunting and I would smile and say " got my limit ".


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

dubob said:


> Of course you see it. You lived it in your younger years. It's part of the '5-Stages of a Hunter's life.'
> 
> It's when you get to Stage 5 (like me & probably you), that you start to see that 'a full limit' isn't what the hunt is all about. On some of my most memorable/enjoyable hunts, a shot was never fired. The 'limit braggers' are firmly entrenched in Stage 2 or 3. Enventually, they, too, will see the light and move on to Stages 4 & 5. 😉


Your absolutely spot on!!


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't ever plan on leaving stage 2 or 3. Been in that stage for 32 years now. Piles make smiles!


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> I don't ever plan on leaving stage 2 or 3. Been in that stage for 32 years now. Piles make smiles!


Sorry Brother; ain't no plan. It's called evolution. You will evolve to the higher stages whether you intend to or not. It just sort of happens. You'll see. 😄

I got to stage 4 after about 45 years and shortly thereafter, there I was - a Stage Fiver. It's actually a very nice place to be.


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

I hate to think it but my drive has fallen off the last couple of years. I had a few days last year when I didn't even set a decoy. Went out drank some coffee & just watched what was going on. I enjoyed the outing and didn't even hunt. Scary!


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I'm having a hard time getting excited for the future of Utah duck hunting. It's not looking promising with the lack of water, lower bird numbers and heavy crowds. I want to believe the GSL will recover at some point, but with a growing population who knows? The lake is at an all time historic low and getting worse daily.
Great Salt Lake Water Level (uslakes.info)


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

toasty said:


> The limits we have for pacific region are largely based on pond conditions in prairie region of Canada and Montana which are not facing significant drought conditions like we are. I just don't see the drought in the Great Basin having much affect on duck populations except maybe the few species that breed here.


All the reports I'm reading say otherwise. Canada pothole regions and Montana are in a drought situation and have been all winter/spring/summer.


----------



## gander311 (Dec 23, 2008)

I read a long article the other day , and then an actual link for the document from the Feds about the system used to determine the season/bag recommendations. It was a LOT of info and more than I could understand.
But my understanding is that even if the season were to be shortened, it would be a year or two out.
I’m not sure if it’s an option, but I’d choose lower bag limits over less days in the field. But I think it comes as a package, so if we got reduced to “moderate” instead of “liberal” it would drop from 107 days to 86 I believe, and from 7 to 5 or something. I’d rather it got dropped fo 3 ducks and keep the full 107 days. But unfortunately i don’t think it works like that.
The other thing I’m curious about is that everything I read only talks about ducks. Are geese on a whole different system? For example, could duck seasons and limits get reduced, but geese stay at the same liberal recommendations theoretically?


----------



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I am torn on this whole deal.
Part of me wants the season/bag so reduced to chase off all the ‘facebookers’ permanently so they never come back to the marsh.
The other part of me wants nothing to change.
If I had to choose, reduced bag to two ducks but keep 107 days.
Or, go back to point system with very high points assigned to the breeds most in trouble. At least this way you get to pick your poison.
As for Canadas:
With the urban sprawl we are facing get ready for goose poop on your city shoes, very liberal limits/season, but very few birds where hunting is legal.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MrShane said:


> Or, go back to point system with very high points assigned to the breeds most in trouble.


Do you know how many birds will get planted or tossed in the bushes if they did that? Countless.

I must have missed the part where duck populations are in the toilet and there’s hardly any left. Last I heard despite the drought conditions in UTAH they are still doing great throughout North America. The whole continent isn’t in a drought. Seems like many of the guys around here have tunnel vision and assume that since their backyard is in rough shape, that everywhere else must be too. I took a little road trip though wyoming, Idaho and Montana last weekend. Plenty of water and marshes were full from what I saw. Much better shape than utah. 1 really bad season doesn’t call for drastic changes immediately.

and the Facebook hunters are here to stay until the powers that be decide to criminalize any kind of hunting content shared on social media for profit or monetary gain. Until they do that, they will be out there even if the limit is down to 2. Ironically, the guys tossing or planting birds on your points system, are also the ones hunting for likes and attention


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

This is the second year without breeding population studies. It will be interesting to see the numbers when They do the studies again. Hopefully things are stable, but if drought continues in the western US and Canada bird numbers will decline….


----------



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

MM,
I’m not sure what kind of so-called ‘duck hunters’ you hang with but in my 35 years of waterfowling I have never seen anyone stomp or throw a bird.
Myself and my group don’t pull the trigger on anything we don’t identify.
If a second bird comes down as collateral damage, it is added to the bag and taken home to be given the respect it deserves.
You might want to distance yourself from the type of ‘hunter’ you just described.
Or not.
Your choice.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Fowlmouth said:


> This is the second year without breeding population studies. It will be interesting to see the numbers when They do the studies again. Hopefully things are stable, but if drought continues in the western US and Canada bird numbers will decline….


That’s my point. We are only assuming at this point. No data to back it up. We don’t need to start yelling for more regulations and restrictions without any data to back up our fears


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MrShane said:


> MM,
> I’m not sure what kind of so-called ‘duck hunters’ you hang with but in my 35 years of waterfowling I have never seen anyone stomp or throw a bird.
> Myself and my group don’t pull the trigger on anything we don’t identify.
> If a second bird comes down as collateral damage, it is added to the bag and taken home to be given the respect it deserves.
> ...


Didn’t say I hang out with them, so that’s a huge assumption on your part. And it’s incorrect. You and I both know it happens. Especially after the glory photos have been taken and the Facebook hunters don’t need those birds anymore.


----------



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I’m glad I assumed wrong, and I’m glad you don’t hang with that type of hunter.
I also know wanton waste happens, I have just never witnessed it.
Now, what can you and I do to make the ‘facebook’ hunter go the same direction as the Dodo bird?
I like your idea of the Feds making it illegal, I just don’t see it happening soon, if at all.
P.S. It is not ‘my’ point system. 
The Feds and Utah has used a point system in the past.


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

I don't use Facebook, but was curious as what you guys mean by Facebook hunter. Thanks


----------



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

They are a shifty bunch, usually seen in the wild with a face that glows from their phone while looking at their screen more than the sky.
Commonly seen in packs of two or more.
Just like geese they need at least one sentry as a lookout, the others in the flock will have their face down on a screen.
“Is this creature a problem” you might ask?
At this point, no. In fact, the more people not paying attention to the sky benefits someone like me who is watching the sky.
The problem with this bunch is as they try so hard to glean ‘likes’.
A ‘like’ to you and me is worthless.
But, to this bunch a ‘like’ is akin to a Honker finding a whole cob of corn in a rest area.
They will do anything to obtain as many of these ‘likes’ as possible.
Unfortunately, it can sometimes mean wasting less desired wildlife or sky blasting to kill as much wild game as possible it order to stack birds as high as possible to get that one precious picture to post on social media in hopes of a few more ‘likes’.
Another sure sign you have encountered a ‘facebook hunter’ is if this posting of pictures is all taking place in the boat or truck ride home.
The desire to obtain a ‘like’ is so strong it cannot wait for anything.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

A smaller limit wouldn't impact me much as I don't really care about killing a ton of birds. A shorter season would suck, though, as I like laying on the ice. But if they keep the areas open after the season ends I wouldn't mind even a shorter season. More interested in photography at this point in my hunting career, anyway. Birds on the wing look a lot better than birds on a tailgate. I may just spend more time in Canada now that I'm retired.


----------



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Congrats on the retirement Jon, it’s the best thing ever!


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

MrShane said:


> They are a shifty bunch, usually seen in the wild with a face that glows from their phone while looking at their screen more than the sky.
> Commonly seen in packs of two or more.
> Just like geese they need at least one sentry as a lookout, the others in the flock will have their face down on a screen.
> “Is this creature a problem” you might ask?
> ...


Thanks, I get it. Pretty much what I assumed you guys meant.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> We don’t need to start yelling for more regulations and restrictions without any data to back up our fears


BINGO!


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Been out for a week in WY camping, and after reading this thread, here are a couple thoughts:

1) No shortened seasons or reduced bags without at least some scientifically-derived data to support it. Going that route without data is kinda like Pelosi pushing to pass a bill, so u can read what's in it later. No thanks!!

2) I lived and hunted with 3 duck limits back in the mid 80s. Not my preference but doable if needed.

3) i would support a "moderate" reduction of 87 days and 5 birds...again if needed. Like that over 107 days and 3 birds. It takes alot of effort to get to some of my spots. I'd do it for 3, but much more fun if I can extend my day with a couple more birds. 

4) If it went to a shortened season, I would advocate for a split season - half before the freeze ending mid- Nov, then a two week break with the last half from Dec 1 to close. I would hate to lose days in the late season, as that's the best/most fun time to hunt IMO. Late season weeds out the fair weather hunters too and the marshes aren't crowded with so many flat-brimmed yahoos.

5) If the point system works better at conserving bird numbers, I say do it. Made you a better hunter, IMO, and much better at identifying your target bird. You wanna shoot 5, 20 point greenheads? Knock yourself out! One 70 point suzie, a greenhead, and one 10 point teal, great. If you want that 1, 100-point Can, that's fine too. I thought it worked just fine back in the day.

It's too early to see what this drought has really done. This year should be fine, but if we don't get good moisture in the next 2-3 years, then things could get dicey. Hopefully, other areas of the country will make up for our local short comings while we are entrenched in the drought here.


----------



## utahbigbull (May 9, 2012)

I think it’s going to be interesting for sure. With the breeding grounds up north not dried up like we are, I think there will be birds. But I do think birds coming down are not gonna stick around long because they will not have many places to go that has water and they’re not getting blasted at every corner from everyone being crammed into those few places. Sure isn’t going to be many flooded flats for rest areas. I flew out of SL last week and looked like it’s just one big dust bowl outside the wma’s… 😪


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

This is the boat launch ramp for Unit 2C at Bear River Bird Refuge.










Turning around and looking down the airboat launch into Unit 9, there's this.










I've seen Unit 2C dry before, but I've never seen the airboat channel dry. Unit 2 had some water, but not much. Pelicans were walking around instead of swimming. I didn't take a picture, but driving on around to the the east side of Unit 2 and looking at Unit 3 showed both the open & closed portions of it bone dry. The Reader Canal was mostly dry with no water flowing, so I'm guessing the Unit 5 open & closed areas are bone dry as well. Me thinks it's gonna be a lean bag this year.


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Bob-
I haven't hunted BRBR in over a dozen years, but don't they wait to start filling the units until late Aug / early Sept? No doubt it's going to be a leaner year waterwise. We need more of the dumpings that we've gotten the last couple days and good snowpack up in the mountains! Might be hunting out of a layout blind a quarter to half mile from the reed lines this year...


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> Bob-
> I haven't hunted BRBR in over a dozen years, but don't they wait to start filling the units until late Aug / early Sept?


It varies from year to year as to which units are drawn down for maintenance and weed control. But I've never seen the airboat channel completely dry. I've also never seen the Reader Canal without a stream flow.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

dubob said:


> This is the boat launch ramp for Unit 2C at Bear River Bird Refuge.
> 
> View attachment 148803
> 
> ...


Par for the course, the feds ruin everything they touch. They don’t run the refuge for the hunters OR the birds. Not really sure who or what they are running it for now.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> Par for the course, the feds ruin everything they touch. They don’t run the refuge for the hunters OR the birds. Not really sure who or what they are running it for now.


Well dooooh! The non-hunting bird watchers who don't buy duck stamps to help support the refuge system.


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Are they really ruining it, or is there simply no water available to pump into the units right now? I'm by no means a fan of our federal government, but sometimes, they get a bad rap when it isn't deserved. Is that the case at BRBR? I have no clue, but...


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

If I remember correctly BRBR is quite far down on the water allocation list. I'm sure theirs are cut just like everyone else were.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> Are they really ruining it, or is there simply no water available to pump into the units right now? I'm by no means a fan of our federal government, but sometimes, they get a bad rap when it isn't deserved. Is that the case at BRBR? I have no clue, but...


It's a little of both actually. The dry airboat channel is due to the drought. Even the Feds can't change that. But they really do go out of their way to make it difficult for hunters and by all measure of indicators looking from the outside, they do appear to be managing the refuge for the bird watchers more than hunters. But that is just one man's (mine) opinion.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MWScott72 said:


> Are they really ruining it, or is there simply no water available to pump into the units right now? I'm by no means a fan of our federal government, but sometimes, they get a bad rap when it isn't deserved. Is that the case at BRBR? I have no clue, but...


on years we are way over snow pack and reservoirs are full, the units are still as dry as they are now. What does that tell you?


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

dubob said:


> It's a little of both actually. The dry airboat channel is due to the drought. Even the Feds can't change that. But they really do go out of their way to make it difficult for hunters and by all measure of indicators looking from the outside, they do appear to be managing the refuge for the bird watchers more than hunters. But that is just one man's (mine) opinion.


I can go along with this, but if they are managing it for the bird watchers, wouldn't they want water in the units to hold the birds? It would make no sense to me to manage for the bird watchers but then withold water that essentially pushes birds to where the water is (i.e. not on the refuge). I can't but help think that with <50% precipitation during the past year and Middlefork's statement about BRBR being low on the allocation list, that the units are essentially dry right now because there simply isn't the water available at this point.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

The GSL is at an all time record low. I can see why the Air Boat ramp is dry. I foresee the worst case scenario happening at the BRBR. They will only allow X amount of hunters into the refuge each day to hunt if the drought continues.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

The Final Habitat Management Plan (HMP) was published in March 2021. It is a 5-year plan with 5 specific projects to revise the layout of refuge. You can read the complete document here: Final HMP.

There is a response in the document that is used several times as an answer to certain questions raised during the comment phase in 2020. Here is the response:



Final HMP said:


> The Refuge's primary mission is to provide habitat that provides the resources needed to fulfill life cycle events of the migratory bird species using the Refuge, including waterfowl. Hunting is one of the NWRS "Big Six" recreational activities and we are aware of the importance and tradition of hunting at the Refuge. We are committed to providing a changing mosaic of habitat for migratory birds including waterfowl. Providing habitat for both sanctuary and hunting units will be included in annual planning activities. It is not anticipated that the current boundaries of the hunt units will change on an annual basis. The Refuge is committed to providing adequate access to hunters including access by boats to hunt areas. Although there will likely be some variability in access due to the time and duration of putting water into the hunt units, we are confident that hunting assets and hunting opportunities will continue to be of a high quality. We will continue to monitor feedback from hunters on an annual basis.


There is also a statement mentioned several times that lists the 'Big Six' uses and they are listed like this in each instance which indicates, to me at least, that the most popular use is wildlife observation (bird watching):



Final HMP said:


> The six priority public uses of the National Wildlife Refuge System are: wildlife observation, hunting, fishing, wildlife photography, interpretation, and environmental education.


----------



## bthewilde (Feb 8, 2018)

I am not surprised this is a discussion, and that article is super interesting. With the low number of birds I saw last year, I think it's coming. I didn't get anywhere NEAR a bag limit last year, or the year before. Maybe I am a bad hunter, but hey! I'll blame the change of birds lol


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1806&context=extension_curall


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

bthewilde said:


> I am not surprised this is a discussion, and that article is super interesting. With the low number of birds I saw last year, I think it's coming. I didn't get anywhere NEAR a bag limit last year, or the year before. Maybe I am a bad hunter, but hey! I'll blame the change of birds lol


Getting a limit is always a moving target and never a given anywhere. With the drought, I anticipate that interior WMAs and impoundments will be similar in "quality" as last year. Meaning, that if you don't hunt at the right time, right places, and under the right conditions, the birds will elude hunters. Sure, most hunters will knock a few down here and there, and even get lucky with limits sometimes, but the hunters that are consistently successful are those that are willing to think outside the box and adjust...whatever that means. That said, I'm really hoping that some of the knowledge I gained last year remains valid this year, but with low water levels, I'm not betting on it.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

middlefork said:


> https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1806&context=extension_curall


Thank you for that link. I found it to be a very good read. Water rights in the Western US is very complex and BRBR may yet be left without any this fall.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

bthewilde said:


> I am not surprised this is a discussion, and that article is super interesting. With the low number of birds I saw last year, I think it's coming. I didn't get anywhere NEAR a bag limit last year, or the year before. Maybe I am a bad hunter, but hey! I'll blame the change of birds lol


We shot the hell out of them both years, from ogden to juab county all season long. So did many other guys. The birds are still in large numbers. Their holding time period is what’s change. More hunting pressure and less water is what I’m guessing is the major factor there.


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

The Feds don't manage that place for waterfowl or waterfowlers. If they did, all units would retain water and sego pond weed throughout the year, unless they need to do a burn like you see needs to be done on 2C. They don't get water from the Bear until the first of October when the users are done with it. The BRBR should be one of the best duck hunting/bird watching places in the Intermountain West, but it's piss poor managed and they don't give a rats a$$ about it.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Fowlmouth said:


> The Feds don't manage that place for waterfowl or waterfowlers. If they did, all units would retain water and sego pond weed throughout the year, unless they need to do a burn like you see needs to be done on 2C. They don't get water from the Bear until the first of October when the users are done with it. The BRBR should be one of the best duck hunting/bird watching places in the Intermountain West, but it's piss poor managed and they don't give a rats a$$ about it.


I posted this link above. The short version is that the BRBR was years late in claiming any water and now millions of dollars short of acquiring more. Nothing to do with the federal government but due to the way water rights are allocated by the state of Utah.



https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1806&context=extension_curall


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

middlefork said:


> I posted this link above. The short version is that the BRBR was years late in claiming any water and now millions of dollars short of acquiring more. Nothing to do with the federal government but due to the way water rights are allocated by the state of Utah.
> 
> 
> 
> https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1806&context=extension_curall


I understand that, and I'm not just talking about the water situation. There are impoundments like 2C that could be burned and prepped and they choose to build playgrounds for kids instead. It's not managed for waterfowl or waterfowlers. Thanks for the link.


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Western Waterfowl Habitat Dries Up As Great Salt Lake Hits Lowest Levels Ever | Field & Stream (fieldandstream.com)


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

It was pretty hazy this morning. Here is a pic from above Bountiful of Farmington Bay


----------

