# Watch today's Wildlife Board meeting



## Amy (Jan 22, 2009)

Today's Utah Wildlife Board meeting will begin at 9 a.m.

If you're interested, please see the agenda and watch the meeting online.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

This will be an interesting one. I hope someone made it down to yell, I mean comment. 

I will watch what I can at work but lets do the norm and comment highlights (lowlights).


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks Amy!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm I the only one that can't take a survey of 85 people seriously?

It's a cool survey, but 85 people is one small neighborhood on the front.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

RandomElk16 said:


> I'm I the only one that can't take a survey of 85 people seriously?
> 
> It's a cool survey, but 85 people is one small neighborhood on the front.


That's the whole population of Castle Valley isn't it?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Critter said:


> That's the whole population of Castle Valley isn't it?


I missed it was only for them. It's about a quarter of the pop so much better.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Donnie Hunter: " Everyone wants to harvest a big buck, and these guys do to but these general season hunts are about opportunity. Thats what most of the general population of hunters want and need, and we need to keep them that way."


Not quoted perfect - but shout out for knowing what the hell general season is all about and trying to keep it that way (keep it simple and know it's not about inches all the time).


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Donnie: let the local biologists have more input. 

Karl Hirst: how are they being left out?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Volume please... you can barely hear some of the board members.


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm glad that I'm not the only person that can't hear them, not only the board members but the other speakers 

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## SureShot (Oct 2, 2007)

To summarize the changes from the original plan:

- Entire skulls (not just skull plates) will be allowed in from CWD states as long as the brain matter and lymph nodes in the neck are completely removed.

- The number of tags for late muzzleloader hunts on general units will be at least 5 and up to .5% of the total tags offered for the unit, but the biologists will have more latitude on the exact number.

- Removed the requirement that a specific number of units have to have a buck:doe ratio of 15-17 and a specific number have to have 18-20 and leave that up to each unit management plan. (At least I think it passed. The voting was split and I wasn't sure which way it landed.)

- Changed the wording so the plan is something to be worked towards without a mandate to get there in a single year.

Rejected were a proposal to change it from a 7-year plan to a 5-year plan and to widen the target buck:doe ranges to 14-18 and 18-22. Also ignored was the suggestion to add a third tier of 21-25. Is that correct?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

sounds about right SS.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Lol.. They shouted out us YouTube folks who can't hear!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

for all the "baiting doesn't work" discussion on UWN, it sure is a hot topic...


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

The first audience member opposed to baiting is specifically talking about premium units make me laugh - mainly he said the pauns and the Henry's. 

How many tags do they issue? How many times do you have that tag?

I had a good talk with Packout about the Henry's. The unit had better average deer when it was managed at 4.5 years old (ish). He was on the mule deer committee at the time. Why didn't you fight that, I asked...

"The Henry mountains is 1500 deer and most people never hunt them. We could fight over that, or we could spend time addressing the 99% of the population where people actually hunt" - Not verbatim.

If you have an issue with baiting, that's fine. Using the Henry mountains as your example however made me chuckle.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Weird to me when things happen like Willard Goats.

They transplant from there year after year. Now they have to combine the hunts and do away with nanny tags because the numbers are struggling. Can someone help me make sense of what appear to be short sighted decisions? If you have a population you can take from, only to have the population decimated afterward - maybe don't take from them in the first place?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Public comment:

"I understand that part of public land to get to may be difficult. Maybe that's a honey hole though? Maybe there are 2-3 guys who work their butt of and harvest some nice bucks each year. It's not the size of the area, it's the fact that it's public land and it should not be included in a CWMU boundary."


SAY IT LOUDER MY MAN!!!!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

LOVE hearing Wade advocate for CWMU's lol.

I like the program, a lot... but you lose me at pitching the public benefits by including public land. "The one extra permit goes to public"... Yeah, or I can buy an OTC tag and hunt the area whenever the hell I want. 


Bret Selman also has 2 CWMU's and of course is for public being added to the CWMU.

Greg gave some legal advice, they decided to keep Bret and Wade votes and the motion to include public passes 3-2, with the 2 swaying votes being CWMU owners. How is that not a bias vote? They are NOT impartial.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Ben Lowder needs a nap.


-DallanC


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

DallanC said:


> Ben Lowder needs a nap.
> 
> -DallanC


I wonder how many texts/social media updates he has posted during the meeting? Dude seems like he is always on his phone . . .


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

The Dumb and Dumber slide was absolutely incredible!!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Wow...

Sort of ummm... Screw the Henry holder who has drawn 10 years straight, and they have only been able to reallocate twice. Turning tags in every year with a few days. What a d***.


Took her half a second to convince me this was a major issue (I already was, but not sure how you can watch that presentation and not be convinced).


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

^^^^ She is doing a fantastic job!!

Crazy about the Henry deer tag and the Zions sheep tags . . . losers.

<30 days before the season starts, if the tag is surrendered, bye bye points. Huge thumbs up!!


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

RandomElk16 said:


> LOVE hearing Wade advocate for CWMU's lol.
> 
> I like the program, a lot... but you lose me at pitching the public benefits by including public land. "The one extra permit goes to public"... Yeah, or I can buy an OTC tag and hunt the area whenever the hell I want.
> 
> ...


What parcel/CWMU was this concerning?

I don't have a problem with the CWMU program, but there is no universe that exists that should allow public land to be included in a CWMU.

We hunt an area for antelope every year in Wyoming, and mule deer in idaho that you have to hike way around pieces of private, but when you get in there, there is great hunting to be had and lots of animals.

I have zero problem with private landowners doing whatever they want with their land generally, but public land shouldn't be added to sweeten the deal.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> Wow...
> 
> Sort of ummm... Screw the Henry holder who has drawn 10 years straight, and they have only been able to reallocate twice. Turning tags in every year with a few days. What a d***.


Somebody in another thread mentioned it is probably an anti-hunter.

It really wouldn't take many Hollywood anti-hunter types to really screw with the draw by applying for tags and turning them in.

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Holy crap... when they press "GO" on the draw software, it takes 7... SEVEN days to do the computations? Holy hell they must have inefficient software engineers.

As an engineer, we are doing coding software for hospital chains. We are processing over 3 million documents an hour (thats doing OCR, NLP, Code calculations, applying government regulatory info)... its ALOT of processing. And we are still doing 3 million an hour... on one single hospital chain. All clients together, probably 50 million documents an hour.

7 days to process less than 100,000 draw applications, good grief.


-DallanC


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Time line was a weak example/excuse. Come on people we can do better than that.

Wait until everyone applies for general deer only to find out later how the tags were cut

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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Kwalk3 said:


> What parcel/CWMU was this concerning?
> 
> I don't have a problem with the CWMU program, but there is no universe that exists that should allow public land to be included in a CWMU.
> 
> ...


I don't remember the name. But the inclusion was to create an enforceable boundary. And it created a public tag every 3 years.

On occasion I see the necessity. This is probably one of them.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Somebody in another thread mentioned it is probably an anti-hunter.
> 
> It really wouldn't take many Hollywood anti-hunter types to really screw with the draw by applying for tags and turning them in.
> 
> -DallanC


This was part of the discussion when the draw proposals first came down. And it is a valid point. Makes you wonder how many max point holders could be in the same position.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

CPAjeff said:


> I wonder how many texts/social media updates he has posted during the meeting? Dude seems like he is always on his phone . . .


He was probably reading this thread. I saw him smile a couple of times. :smile:


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> Holy crap... when they press "GO" on the draw software, it takes 7... SEVEN days to do the computations? Holy hell they must have inefficient software engineers.
> 
> As an engineer, we are doing coding software for hospital chains. We are processing over 3 million documents an hour (thats doing OCR, NLP, Code calculations, applying government regulatory info)... its ALOT of processing. And we are still doing 3 million an hour... on one single hospital chain. All clients together, probably 50 million documents an hour.
> 
> ...


Well they did dock RMEF points on their expo submittal for saying they would use the EXACT company the DWR uses in their draw lol. So I guess they know its crap? :mrgreen:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I have not had a chance to watch yet. Did they explain why it takes 7 days when none of the other draws in our state completed by the same company take that long?


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> I have not had a chance to watch yet. Did they explain why it takes 7 days when none of the other draws in our state completed by the same company take that long?


No questions were asked it was only a informational presentation. She did many many times use the "prefect accuracy" catch phrase to describe the time table.

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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

weaversamuel76 said:


> No questions were asked it was only a informational presentation. She did many many times use the "prefect accuracy" catch phrase to describe the time table.
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


Misspelling the word perfect, in quotations, is the greatest :mrgreen:

I feel like, philosophically, it is a deeper representation of our wildlife board.

You are either a ******* or a genius, regardless you are good in my book.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

The latest DWR news release:

https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/818-deer-management-plan-hunt-drawing.html


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

As they say, change takes a long time and needs to start with taking a step. 

I approve of the tag surrender time frame along with the waiting period to 5 years. I'm on the fence about loosing PP's if one purchases a OTC tag, unless these OTC tags are just being used to hunt the extended archery......I know it is a slippery slope.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I missed part of the meeting. Did they mention people on a 2 year deer waiting period, are they grandfathered in or did their waiting period get extended? Would suck if you drew a deer tag planning on a 2 year wait and it gets changed after the fact to 5 years. 

-DallanC


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

elkfromabove said:


> The latest DWR news release:
> 
> https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/818-deer-management-plan-hunt-drawing.html


I wasn't able to watch the forfeiture portion. Do you forfeit antlerless elk points if you buy a control permit? Did anyone catch that?

Also, I thought it was but this doesn't mention ONLY being able to apply for general season deer or dedicated hunter? I honestly think that change would hurt dedicated hunter (I for one was going to apply this year and won't if that's the case).


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

RandomElk16 said:


> I wasn't able to watch the forfeiture portion. Do you forfeit antlerless elk points if you buy a control permit? Did anyone catch that?
> 
> Also, I thought it was but this doesn't mention ONLY being able to apply for general season deer or dedicated hunter? I honestly think that change would hurt dedicated hunter (I for one was going to apply this year and won't if that's the case).


Yes have to choose between general and dedicated. They talked about phasing out the dedicated points but said there would be plenty of notice on how that plan would look.

No to losing points on a control cow tag. They are basically the only way to get a cow tag without giving up your points.

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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

DallanC said:


> I missed part of the meeting. Did they mention people on a 2 year deer waiting period, are they grandfathered in or did their waiting period get extended? Would suck if you drew a deer tag planning on a 2 year wait and it gets changed after the fact to 5 years.
> 
> -DallanC


I don't think they specified that. I assumed (I know) that it is for 2020 tags and going forward.

They did not even discuss retroactive waiting periods.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I am not happy about losing your preference points if u get an over the counter tag.


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## Isuckathunting (Sep 15, 2019)

I don't think you're alone about not being happy. I'm also a little confused as to which points you lose though. For someone new to hunting getting used to the old regs, it's hard to follow. Say you buy an OTC spike/cow elk tag, you lose your LE elk point but keep your antlerless points? Even if you use the tag to harvest a cow. And is it the same for an OTC archery tag, the moment you purchase that you lose LE elk points?


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Slap That Quack said:


> I am not happy about losing your preference points if u get an over the counter tag.


Same here. I have been able to take advantage of the OTC purchase and keep my points opportunity several times and I thought it was sweet. Looking at the big picture I think the change is a good thing though.

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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Isuckathunting said:


> I don't think you're alone about not being happy. I'm also a little confused as to which points you lose though. For someone new to hunting getting used to the old regs, it's hard to follow. Say you buy an OTC spike/cow elk tag, you lose your LE elk point but keep your antlerless points? Even if you use the tag to harvest a cow. And is it the same for an OTC archery tag, the moment you purchase that you lose LE elk points?


I believe that it is pointed at the general deer hunt where someone will just put in for a PP in the draw and then purchase a left over archery tag for lets say a unit that is mostly private just so that they can hunt the extended.

There are very few if any other type of tags left over after the draw that you can just go down and purchase on a first come first served.

The rule may be written a lot better in the regs when they come out as far as any other animal, but you do not accumulate points for a over the counter elk tag.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Preference point = general tags.
Bonus points = LE tags.

Any general season elk tag, except for anterless control permits will result in loss of preference points. Same for general deer and antlerless deer.

LE bonus points are not effected.


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## cedar (Jul 29, 2013)

middlefork said:


> Preference point = general tags.
> Bonus points = LE tags.
> 
> Any general season elk tag, except for anterless control permits will result in loss of preference points. Same for general deer and antlerless deer.
> ...


Will General season bull elk and antlerless elk (not control tags) be in same pool?for example do i lose my pp for antlerless elk if i buy a general season bull elk tag?


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## Hunttilidrop (Jun 12, 2018)

It’s only for deer. There is no preference points for elk at all. Elk is OTC unless it’s LE


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## Hunttilidrop (Jun 12, 2018)

Correction: antlerless elk is pp. but I don’t see how otc bull elk could effect antlerless elk pp.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

There are preference points for elk. The perceived problem was the amount of preference points required for antler-less permits. Thus you buy a archery or general elk permit your preference points for antler-less go away. Sucks but you have to decide what you want to hunt.
I don't think they thought through this completely and we will see some serious fall out over it.


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## Isuckathunting (Sep 15, 2019)

middlefork said:


> Preference point = general tags.
> Bonus points = LE tags.
> 
> LE bonus points are not effected.


That is extremely helpful. I didn't realize the word difference. Thank you. Also now I feel a little dumb for thinking that but that makes so much more sense than what I was understanding.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

So if you buy a spike only elk tag you lose your cow points? Does that apply to all weapon types? Or only archery since you can kill a cow on an archery bull permit?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Well here is my 2 scenarios that were impacted today:

Elk:
-I hunt in areas that offer control tags, and private land tags, because they can not get the population to levels. Because of that I rack up points and hunt a different cow tag every few years. I feel I am doing them a service getting the private tags by both monetary donation, and helping control the population (which is their freaking goal). Makes no sense to take me out of one of the pools they are trying to recruit hunters to help control.

Less crucial is General Deer:
-I want to do more to help conservation. As an archer in a not premium area though, I draw tags each year. I thought of doing the dedicated and being afield more while serving hours. I will not however be putting in because now it's either or, and I would rather take my guaranteed tag. So who did this change actually benefit? In the end I only got one tag or the other. They lost a potential volunteer.

Neither of these are complaints, they just don't make sense to me that they are situations that ACTUALLY benefit people or conservation.

Frankly, the few OTC deer tags their were don't hurt anybody by letting that person keep their points. Those are tags that they could easily be sure to get in the draw but choose not to.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Isuckathunting said:


> That is extremely helpful. I didn't realize the word difference. Thank you. Also now I feel a little dumb for thinking that but that makes so much more sense than what I was understanding.


No worries. There are a lot of people out there who have the same confusion.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> So if you buy a spike only elk tag you lose your cow points? Does that apply to all weapon types? Or only archery since you can kill a cow on an archery bull permit?


A bull tag taking points from antlerless, in ANY scenario, makes ZERO sense.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

What about the youth elk draw?
Don't they get points now?

So a kidd wants to archery hunt spikes and losses the youth points?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> So if you buy a spike only elk tag you lose your cow points? Does that apply to all weapon types? Or only archery since you can kill a cow on an archery bull permit?


Yes. All tags.

They tried to add private land tags along with control tags but it did not pass.

Their rational was it was taking 4 + preference points to draw some antler-less tags. They actually claimed up to 7 preference point but I think it was the Central RAC called them out on that.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> What about the youth elk draw?
> Don't they get points now?
> 
> So a kidd wants to archery hunt spikes and losses the youth points?


Yes. Like I said I don't think they completely thought this through.

I think that the problem comes from thinking every application for a given hunt is from a individual hunter. I know I bank antler-less points to draw a cow tag every 2 or 3 years along with my 3 season tag.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

middlefork said:


> Vanilla said:
> 
> 
> > So if you buy a spike only elk tag you lose your cow points? Does that apply to all weapon types? Or only archery since you can kill a cow on an archery bull permit?
> ...


In my preferred unit they cut tags so heavily that they created a large applicant pool in just a couple of years.

It is not at all unrealistic to see it taking 6-7points or more to draw a cow permit in the next year or two.

This change really dampens my spirits. I have 3 antlerless points due to the aforementioned cuts and also enjoy the multi-season OTC tag. Having to choose between them complicates things for me.

Essentially I'm going to have to decide whether hunting multi-season next year is worth my 4 antlerless points.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

middlefork said:


> Yes. All tags.
> 
> They tried to add private land tags along with control tags but it did not pass.
> 
> Their rational was it was taking 4 + preference points to draw some antler-less tags. They actually claimed up to 7 preference point but I think it was the Central RAC called them out on that.


I don't think you are correct on this. Do you have a link? Only thing the slide show was about was cow elk. Only thing discussed was cow elk tags. I'm 99% sure spike/any bull tags have no impact on cow points

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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

KineKilla said:


> In my preferred unit they cut tags so heavily that they created a large applicant pool in just a couple of years.
> 
> It is not at all unrealistic to see it taking 6-7points or more to draw a cow permit in the next year or two.
> 
> ...


I watched the entire presentation and never saw or heard this discussion. It was strictly about cow elk.

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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Yo!! Ya’ll have me a bit confused!! If their saying I lose my cow elk points when I buy my general bull tag I’m putting my cry face on real quick!! 

That can’t be right!! 


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

weaversamuel76 said:


> I don't think you are correct on this. Do you have a link? Only thing the slide show was about was cow elk. Only thing discussed was cow elk tags. I'm 99% sure spike/any bull tags have no impact on cow points
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


I could be wrong. I was going by what I heard on the pod cast.

But I could swear there was a slide showing the only exception for any general season tag was control permits.
That was the reason for the whole discussion. 7 hours was a lot to listen to.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

middlefork said:


> There are preference points for elk.


There are NOT preference points for OTC general spike or any bull elk tags! I think that clears it up. I will sleep tonight.

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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You can always go and watch the meeting again and fast forward to what you want to watch and even go back and forth if you are uncertain 

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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Page 43 of the minutes.

Sleep well!


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

DallanC said:


> I missed part of the meeting. Did they mention people on a 2 year deer waiting period, are they grandfathered in or did their waiting period get extended? Would suck if you drew a deer tag planning on a 2 year wait and it gets changed after the fact to 5 years.
> 
> -DallanC


Someone asked Lindy this question at the Central RAC meeting. She said they would be grandfathered in on a 2-year waiting period.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I thought the whole point of preference points was to be able to hunt where you really want to once in a while. There are barely any tags left after the draw anyways, so how does losing your preference points help anything. To me this just means if you really want to hunt a specific area that is hard to draw, you have to decide you are not hunting at all for up to several years. The more I think about it the more I get depressed.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

My understanding was it only applied to cow tags. The discussion here really threw me off!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Slap That Quack said:


> I thought the whole point of preference points was to be able to hunt where you really want to once in a while. There are barely any tags left after the draw anyways, so how does losing your preference points help anything. To me this just means if you really want to hunt a specific area that is hard to draw, you have to decide you are not hunting at all for up to several years. The more I think about it the more I get depressed.


That's limited entry.

General season is about opportunity. That's it, period point blank. So if you get an "opportunity" to hunt, you don't need those points.

I agree there isn't much harm with OTC tags though, since someone could put them as their last option and draw.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I get it about opportunity, but I think this is taking alot of family traditions out of the picture. By that I just mean the opportunity to hunt a place you have your whole life with your family and now that will be really hard to do.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Most haven't been able to go on a family hunting trip now ever since they did away with the general season OTC deer tag and went to the draw. If you wanted to see families hunting together you should of seen it back in the 60's-mid 90's. There were camps with 20 vehicles in them. Opening morning sounded like D-Day with all the shooting that along with a pumpkin sitting on every rock that you could see at daylight. Not to mention the people that were above you rolling rocks down through the brush where you were sitting to spook the deer out. 

As one type of a tradition ends you need to start a new one. If you don't have a tag, go with the ones that do and enjoy the experience with them.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Critter said:


> Most haven't been able to go on a family hunting trip now ever since they did away with the general season OTC deer tag and went to the draw. If you wanted to see families hunting together you should of seen it back in the 60's-mid 90's. There were camps with 20 vehicles in them. Opening morning sounded like D-Day with all the shooting that along with a pumpkin sitting on every rock that you could see at daylight. Not to mention the people that were above you rolling rocks down through the brush where you were sitting to spook the deer out.
> 
> As one type of a tradition ends you need to start a new one. If you don't have a tag, go with the ones that do and enjoy the experience with them.


Not to be a Debbie Downer but there isn't anything worse for someone that finally drew a tag than tons of people who don't have a tag scouring the mountain side "helping" out another tag holder. Utah is the worse at this without a doubt.

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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

There’s always family fishing trips. 

Ahhh the 60s to 90s before predators ate alll the deer habitat. Heck not only family hunts but community hunts. I grew up in a camp with more than 50 people. Aunts uncle cousins neighbors friends. My Grandma carried a bow. She didn’t ever shoot a deer I rembered but she went along with us in driving patches of quakies. To my knowledge I’m the only one left from that camp still hunting the same area. 

So will I lose my cow points next year if I buy a 3 season spike tag again next year?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

weaversamuel76 said:


> Not to be a Debbie Downer but there isn't anything worse for someone that finally drew a tag than tons of people who don't have a tag scouring the mountain side "helping" out another tag holder. Utah is the worse at this without a doubt.
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


Problem is that you will never see that again on a general deer hunt.

Everyone is crying in their beer or Coke because they didn't draw a tag and don't want to go out and help a family member that did draw one. Some of the funnest hunts I have been on are ones that I haven't had a tag for.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Slap That Quack said:


> I get it about opportunity, but I think this is taking alot of family traditions out of the picture. By that I just mean the opportunity to hunt a place you have your whole life with your family and now that will be really hard to do.


What changed? If you needed to "draw" that place you still put in for the draw like normal and get points like normal.

What it takes away is hunting AWAY from that place by maybe getting an OTC tag (there were very few).

If they place you want to hunt together was an OTC tag- well that means it's a unit you can very easily draw.

While I dislike the change, I disagree it does anything to the scenario you are speaking of.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I disagree.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Slap, why does this change make it harder to hunt where you have already been hunting? I’m not sure I understand fully the concern, do looking for clarification. What am I missing?


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I will just preface this with I am not great at communicating things sometimes. But here it goes. For example, the general deer tag I typically hunt has been taking 3 or so years to draw. My family has basically been on the same draw cycle so we have been able to keep the tradition going. But with this change it is highly unlikely we will stay on the same draw cycle, and it has been stated that they just want to hunt every year which basically means that the tradition of hunting area together is likely gone. I get what others are saying if you dont draw you can hunt with those that did, or hunt other areas. But in my opinion it just takes something away from my experience. It is likely the friends and family members will be splintering into several different units to have a hunt each year, or attempt to. That means sharing several years to draw that tag are out. Not sure if this clearly conveys my concern but I tried.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think I get it. You are worried they will just buy OTC archery tags after the draw hoping to hunt the extended and never accumulate points to draw the tag you used to all save up and draw together? 

They used to be able to do this yet still get the points for the larger family/friend hunt every few years, and now that is not possible to build up to? 

Did I understand correctly?


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

Basically.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Well, I guess we can't have our cake and eat it too unless you're rich.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

What does being rich have to do with it, unless you are referring to someone who can afford private ranches or auction tags. 

The new requirements will happen to everyone from Joe down the street who just makes just enough to enjoy a few days out in the hills to those sitting up on snob hill who can take all the time off that they want and hunt any private ranch that they want to. 

I actually see it as the DOW closing another loop hole in the draw process. They started a couple of years ago when they started to take away points from those that drew a tag as any choice. Now they are saying that if you want to hunt you need to make a decision on when, where, and perhaps sex that you want to hunt. I'm waiting for the actual regs to come out to actually see just what is going to take PP's away and what isn't. 

With the population and hunter increases and only so many animals out there I can see it becoming even more restrictive in the future.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

RandomElk16 said:


> What changed? If you needed to "draw" that place you still put in for the draw like normal and get points like normal.
> 
> What it takes away is hunting AWAY from that place by maybe getting an OTC tag (there were very few).
> 
> ...





Slap That Quack said:


> I will just preface this with I am not great at communicating things sometimes. But here it goes. For example, the general deer tag I typically hunt has been taking 3 or so years to draw. My family has basically been on the same draw cycle so we have been able to keep the tradition going. But with this change it is highly unlikely we will stay on the same draw cycle, and it has been stated that they just want to hunt every year which basically means that the tradition of hunting area together is likely gone. I get what others are saying if you dont draw you can hunt with those that did, or hunt other areas. But in my opinion it just takes something away from my experience. It is likely the friends and family members will be splintering into several different units to have a hunt each year, or attempt to. That means sharing several years to draw that tag are out. Not sure if this clearly conveys my concern but I tried.





Vanilla said:


> I think I get it. You are worried they will just buy OTC archery tags after the draw hoping to hunt the extended and never accumulate points to draw the tag you used to all save up and draw together?
> 
> They used to be able to do this yet still get the points for the larger family/friend hunt every few years, and now that is not possible to build up to?
> 
> Did I understand correctly?


Your response to me was "I disagree". Then you described EXACTLY what I said(red texts).

If they hunt AWAY from the family area, yes you are right it ruins the tradition. But, you guys could put in as a group each year and keep the tradition alive(Green text). It's a difficult choice that MANY people faced even before this change.

You have a few options, but if hunting every year is a priority you guys may just need to start a new tradition, in a new place. It's entirely possible.

I understand the "We all want rifle tags, for X unit, every year"... I get it. Unfortunately that isn't where things sit, even before this change.

Hopefully you guys can be creative and come up with a solution. Maybe that solution means being out of state 2 years then at the ol stomping grounds every 3 like before, or maybe it means being in the field every year together at a new area.

One thing is clear about the mountains though: It does not exclude people. It will always welcome you and your family together. The logistics are yours to either get hung up on, or not.

Again, I don't love the change - but it didn't stop your 3 year cycle. The desire to have a tag in pocket each year will. Best of luck on what you guys decide though!


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I think the change will actually help my desire to hunt every year...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

There are more obstacles to family hunting trips than the difficulty of drawing tags. My two brothers and I all have lifetime licenses. One insists on archery hunting. The other two of us have brains. Go figure? 

:grin:


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

Can anyone definitively say that you will lose your cow points if you purchase a spike or any bull over the counter tag?


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Hunter Tom said:


> Can anyone definitively say that you will lose your cow points if you purchase a spike or any bull over the counter tag?


No, you will not loose your cow points if you purchase a spike or any bull OTC tag. Two entirely different processes.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

CPAjeff said:


> No, you will not loose your cow points if you purchase a spike or any bull OTC tag. Two entirely different processes.


I'll admit there was a lot of confusion on this point based on some posts earlier in the thread. Thanks for clearing that up. The posts didn't make sense to me that were conflating the preference points for cow elk with the general OTC tags.

I'm one that loves to draw the same cow tag every 2-3 years, but also have a general bull tag in my pocket every year.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Looks like I'm hunting elk ONLY every off year now because of the gen. deer OTC point removal , because it takes at least 2 to hunt in my deer areas. I'm fine with that. At least its for everyone not just certain groups. I bet they have a lot more left over tags for East canyon and maybe Kamas this year thus less money for them. Curious to see ?


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

CPAjeff said:


> Hunter Tom said:
> 
> 
> > Can anyone definitively say that you will lose your cow points if you purchase a spike or any bull over the counter tag?
> ...


And what about the OTC multi season elk tags that allow the harvest of cow elk during the archery seasons?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Sorry if it was my posts that got everyone confused. And I admitted that I could have been and still am.

Here is the part of the minutes that confuse me. My emphasis added.

"Motion-Randy Hutchison- Accept the remainder of the proposed rule amendments to address point creep, lost
opportunities and equity in the hunt drawing process.
Second-Kevin McLeod
Ryan Brown- If you aren't successful in the draw and you buy a leftover tag, as we are about to vote on, you are giving up
all those points?
*Lindy Varney- Correct, giving up preference points for that species*. Not bonus points.
Ryan Brown- Can you elaborate bonus vs. preference.
Lindy Varney- Limited entry and OIAL limited species have bonus points. Those permits are issued 50% to max point
holders and 50% to everyone else. They have a waiting period attached to them. They usually have a lower number of
permits to those hunts because it is more of a quality hunt. Preference hunt is a quantity hunts. We give those permits to
the hunters that have the highest preference points. If you have the most preference points, you will get a permit. We will
take out the 4th tier and then people with 3 points, then 2 points and so forth. Those are general season permits.
Ryan Brown- Those are what you are surrendering when you buy a leftover tag.
Lindy Varney- Those are the points I am talking about losing."

Maybe a clarification from the DWR would be in order?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

middlefork said:


> Sorry if it was my posts that got everyone confused. And I admitted that I could have been and still am.
> 
> Here is the part of the minutes that confuse me. My emphasis added.
> 
> ...


Are antlerless classified as preference points though?

I thought they were defined as Bonus Points. Which also aren't considered "general season".

Most people on here(frequent members anyways) know more than most these people. Do any of them hunt like everyday people do? (us).


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

My dad and I thought of something else today - As per adding the public to the CWMU boundary:

Can they post that no trespassing? Can it be hunted for species the CWMU doesn't offer? Or did the DWR just give away public land?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> Are antlerless classified as preference points though?
> 
> I thought they were defined as Bonus Points. Which also aren't considered "general season".
> 
> Most people on here(frequent members anyways) know more than most these people. Do any of them hunt like everyday people do? (us).


All antleress are preference points.

Bonus points for LE and OIL.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> My dad and I thought of something else today - As per adding the public to the CWMU boundary:
> 
> Can they post that no trespassing? Can it be hunted for species the CWMU doesn't offer? Or did the DWR just give away public land?


They can post it as being part of the CWMU. It would be open to hunting other species not incorporated in the CWMU permit. As is the CWMU with permission.

The entire proposal is about establishing an enforceable boundary in regards to the CWMU.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

KineKilla said:


> And what about the OTC multi season elk tags that allow the harvest of cow elk during the archery seasons?


No, you still won't lose your points. Since OTC multi-season tags require no points of any kind (i.e. preference or bonus), there is no way to penalize someone's cow elk preference points.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

middlefork said:


> They can post it as being part of the CWMU. It would be open to hunting other species not incorporated in the CWMU permit. As is the CWMU with permission.
> 
> The entire proposal is about establishing an enforceable boundary in regards to the CWMU.


What is the problem with the boundary currently that makes it unenforceable?


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## cedar (Jul 29, 2013)

CPAjeff said:


> No, you still won't lose your points. Since OTC multi-season tags require no points of any kind (i.e. preference or bonus), there is no way to penalize someone's cow elk preference points.


Correct,There is no draw system for OTC So there is no preference/bonus points for OTC.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

middlefork said:


> All antleress are preference points.
> 
> Bonus points for LE and OIL.


Except antlerless moose which uses bonus points.

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Ha! Utah's system is so whack.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

You can't have left over tags if there is no draw for them. Simple, unless they make you draw for spike or anybull units. With the Anybull units selling as fast as they do maybe they will in the future


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

What about the OTC youth archery deer tags, will the youth loose their points when purchasing one of those?


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Are they in the draw system? Since they are I would say yes. Maybe they will make an adjustment for youth since we cater some much to them anymore.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Instead of thinking about individual hunts, I think the easier way to consider this is ask what system that hunt is in. 

If the hunt is not in a preference point system, then buying the tag OTC is not going to influence preference points. If the hunt is in the preference point system, them buying a leftover tag after that draw is going to take your points. 

Except control tags. That really messes up my simple answer.

Kind of a mess!


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Brookie said:


> Are they in the draw system? Since they are I would say yes. Maybe they will make an adjustment for youth since we cater some much to them anymore.


As far as I know, youth archery tags are not in the draw system. They are available for every unit in the state. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
My kids hunt with these tags every other year while waiting to draw rifle tags. I really hope they don't take points away for this.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Kwalk3 said:


> What is the problem with the boundary currently that makes it unenforceable?


There are a lot of CWMU's that don't have a very distinguishable boundary (we have land by one). Heck even Deseret relies on fences and signs.

Maybe the public comment about a honey hole was right, and they don't want people killing their animals? They said it was super hard to get to from the public side - so why would they worry so much about it if that's the case?

There are the public reasons, then the real reasons, behind these moves imo..


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

It seems ironic that the two individuals who motioned and then seconded the motion to include the piece of public into the CWMU are also CWMU operators . . . conflict of interest??

It's crazy to me that just a few short months ago, a self-proclaimed 'social media star' lost his plea for a reduction in loss of hunting rights because he "should've known" where he was hunting - due to his knowledge of the area and technology. Now, we lose a portion of public land because of the more-clear-boundary excuse. I think the real motive was that the CWMU operator didn't want people hunting the public boarder and killing animals when they step off the private. Stupid.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

RandomElk16 said:


> There are a lot of CWMU's that don't have a very distinguishable boundary (we have land by one). Heck even Deseret relies on fences and signs.
> 
> Maybe the public comment about a honey hole was right, and they don't want people killing their animals? They said it was super hard to get to from the public side - so why would they worry so much about it if that's the case?
> 
> There are the public reasons, then the real reasons, behind these moves imo..


I bet you're right. I'm low on the details in this situation, and that's why I have questions. This definitely sounds like it is the easiest solution for the landowner, but that doesn't mean it was necessarily the right move for the public. Ultimately the animals aren't "theirs." Especially if they are(were) being hunted on public land.

It's not that hard to know where you are. So many tools at our disposal.

But if it was that big of a concern, why wasn't the suggestion to just add signage along the boundary? Would that be asking too much of the landowner?

Do you know how much public land was added to the CWMU?

I just have a hard time seeing how adding public land is the answer especially for the purported "gain" of 1 tag every 3 years.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

CPAjeff said:


> It seems ironic that the two individuals who motioned and then seconded the motion to include the piece of public into the CWMU are also CWMU operators . . . conflict of interest??
> 
> It's crazy to me that just a few short months ago, a self-proclaimed 'social media star' lost his plea for a reduction in loss of hunting rights because he "should've known" where he was hunting - due to his knowledge of the area and technology. Now, we lose a portion of public land because of the more-clear-boundary excuse. I think the real motive was that the CWMU operator didn't want people hunting the public boarder and killing animals when they step off the private. Stupid.


Both offered to recuse themselves.

I have no dog in the fight. I just don't think the public is getting screwed on this but then I don't know the area.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

middlefork said:


> Both offered to recuse themselves.
> 
> I have no dog in the fight. I just don't think the public is getting screwed on this but then I don't know the area.


It's the precedent that concerns me.

*I don't care how hard it is to find your private boundary - protecting private lands at the cost of public lands seems bass-ackwards to me. 
*
Maybe it was only 360 acres. Doesn't matter. I don't want to be the east coast when it comes to public land hunting. Buy a few signs, hire security. It's not rocket science. 360 acres would cost what, minimum a $1000 an acre I am sure. Signs are a lot cheaper than $200K-$360K in land.

As for the recusal - Ben wasn't even saying anything. Greg asked if they could do it without a conflict or unbiasedly - OF COURSE THEY CAN'T. Heaton had his opinion very clear before they asked lol.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Big difference in "offering to recuse themselves," and forwarding a motion, and seconding said motion.

360 acres is still a big deal to me.....

Would still like to understand the details a little better about the area.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Preference points will be forfeited if you purchase one of the following permits that are left over after the drawing has occurred:
- general season buck deer permit
- antlerless elk (_including the OTC Private Lands Only tags_)
- antlerless deer
- doe pronghorn
- sandhill crane
- sharp-tailed grouse
- greater sage grouse
- swan

Preference points will notbe forfeited if you purchase of one of the following permits:
- youth archery general buck deer
- mitigation permits
- antlerless control permits (elk)

No points will be lost or forfeited for the purchase of a general season any bull or spike elk tag.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Kwalk3 said:


> Big difference in "offering to recuse themselves," and forwarding a motion, and seconding said motion.
> 
> 360 acres is still a big deal to me.....
> 
> Would still like to understand the details a little better about the area.


I will be the first to admit I don't know the parliamentary rules. They recused themselves. Legal council said basically that if it didn't affect them they could vote. You would have to listen to that part of the video.

Maybe go directly to the source? Somebody during the meeting said there was a map with the proposed change. I believe it was questioned by some as they couldn't visualize the area in question and no one had seen the area in question..


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

middlefork said:


> I will be the first to admit I don't know the parliamentary rules. They recused themselves. Legal council said basically that if it didn't affect them they could vote. You would have to listen to that part of the video.
> 
> Maybe go directly to the source? Somebody during the meeting said there was a map with the proposed change. I believe it was questioned by some as they couldn't visualize the area in question and no one had seen the area in question..


Will listen to it. To be clear, I'm not intending this to be directed at you. It's clear that neither of us has the requisite information to say authoritatively whether the public is being screwed or not. I'll see if I can find a map.

I just don't like the idea of public land being added to the CWMU, unless it was absolutely necessary.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I’ve always been under the impression that most if not all CWMU’s include some state or federal ground. Some state ground is land locked in the middle of private land. I don’t know the details of this latest approval. Not sure what the big deal is.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

I thought it failed since all the cwmu filed late and the state attorney said the board didn't have the authority to bypass the law and approve it anyway. Sure they spent 40 minutes trying to side step the law but couldn't. Maybe that was just roan cliffs though.



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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Heaton sure has an agenda and it's all about ****ing the public land hunter that's for certain. 

He said we CANNOT give enough incentives to the private land owner. WTF

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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

brisket said:


> As far as I know, youth archery tags are not in the draw system. They are available for every unit in the state. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
> My kids hunt with these tags every other year while waiting to draw rifle tags. I really hope they don't take points away for this.


I'm fairly certain they are exempt from youth losing thier points with the archery tag.

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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

weaversamuel76 said:


> Heaton sure has an agenda and it's all about ****ing the public land hunter that's for certain.
> 
> He said we CANNOT give enough incentives to the private land owner. WTF
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


Well the other option is private land only tags. Pay to play.

If you believe the discussion I think they said 65% who buy a CWMU tag currently are Utah residents.

The land owners are pretty adamant that they will not go below a 90/10 or 85/15 split that are the current allocations.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I was actually impressed with Mr. Heaton and the Roan Cliffs debate. More than once he requested legal clarification and then proceeded to remind the other board members they could not grant any decision because they were outside the bounds established.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

middlefork said:


> Well the other option is private land only tags. Pay to play.
> 
> If you believe the discussion I think they said 65% who buy a CWMU tag currently are Utah residents.
> 
> The land owners are pretty adamant that they will not go below a 90/10 or 85/15 split that are the current allocations.


True!

The beneficiaries of the CWMU are mostly public draw hunters. Take away the CWMU program and many parcels will just sell trespass permits for a hefty price. I've been on a couple CWMUs with little pressure and it's crazy how hard the elk are still rutting during the GS elk season. Not to mention landowner association tag allocation and other examples.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

derekp1999 said:


> Preference points will notbe forfeited if you purchase of one of the following permits:
> - youth archery general buck deer
> - mitigation permits
> - antlerless control permits (elk)


Thanks for the clarification, I haven't had a chance to listen to the entire board meeting yet.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Iron Bear said:


> I've always been under the impression that most if not all CWMU's include some state or federal ground. Some state ground is land locked in the middle of private land. I don't know the details of this latest approval. Not sure what the big deal is.


I don't know about most, but I do know that many CWMUs have included portions of public land for a long time--possibly since the creation of the program even. I have not listened to the meeting, and don't know which CWMU was the one asking for a boundary change, but even if it could have been/was granted, this wouldn't be "establishing a precedent" as RandomElk16 was concerned about in post #110.

Now I'm curious which one, as I have a few pockets that could be described like this that I know of and have hunted. Be interesting to know if one of them got publicly aired, but knowing those operators I really doubt it--they are all super friendly to the public and if you ask right may even allow you to access such a patch through the CWMU in a vehicle instead of the pure, public route that may or may not require a healthy acceptance that you might die getting in/out.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Many of them include LAND-LOCKED public ground. Very few include public land on a border. I will mention one exemption to that below. 

The issue with this is it is an established CWMU that was operating just fine. They made no change to the CWMU other than the addition of public land. If you listen to all the meetings, like I do, and even this one it is very clear they don't know why or how they legally made things in the past the way they are. As CPAJeff said, the one positive Wade did was asked if they legally could do something, they could not. This was after they said they have done those things nearly every single year!

So, many of the things they did simple were just because and without merit. Folley Ridge is an example of that.

To me, the blatant addition of public land, with no other factors involved, is a precedent. There were no trespasser documents or poaching documents. It was a basic request "just cuz".

Maybe all the land behind Causey should go to Deseret because a clearer border can be made? Who knows. Regardless they didn't convince me.



As for "Not sure what the big deal is", it's purely principal. If you care about public land preservation, you care about public land preservation. Ignoring land that is "only" so big, or doesn't impact you is against principal. Then again I hate that ski resorts lease copious amounts of public ground that I can't hunt, only to then lease it to R&K and Mr Jones for a profit so they can all hunt public land for profit. That's probably the biggest examples of public land in CWMU's.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

And just to be clear - CWMU are VERY incentivized by the open season. That's the number one reason they do it. They can hold hunts for much longer, and have high end clients using rifles, bows, etc whenever. 

Like I said I love the program, and it does benefit the public a lot... 

But don't think bulls and bucks in the rut with the weapon of choice by the hunter is not a major money maker. These large CWMU are running hunts for ~16 straight weeks. 

Good luck selling the experience when you have all your rifle hunters there for one 9 day window.

Edit: And the fact that many would become LE unit areas (cough cough Heaton) and could not sell their own tags or control their clients. At that point there is no line skipping and no $20,000 deer tags.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

RandomElk16 said:


> And just to be clear - CWMU are VERY incentivized by the open season. That's the number one reason they do it. They can hold hunts for much longer, and have high end clients using rifles, bows, etc whenever.
> 
> Like I said I love the program, and it does benefit the public a lot...
> 
> ...


True and valid points above. However, when large private parcels are included in LE areas, landowners are given a certain allotment of tags which they can sale (they have to follow the same LE tag dates as everyone else). I know one place where this happens in Eastern Utah and the early rifle elk tags sale for $25k.

This is Utah, if there is any possible way under heaven to make money off our wildlife, it exists.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

CPAjeff said:


> True and valid points above. However, when large private parcels are included in LE areas, landowners are given a certain allotment of tags which they can sale (they have to follow the same LE tag dates as everyone else). I know one place where this happens in Eastern Utah and the early rifle elk tags sale for $25k.
> 
> This is Utah, if there is any possible way under heaven to make money off our wildlife, it exists.


That's more than Deseret.. Interesting.

Regardless- the idea they aren't incentivized enough in the program is funny. If the landowner route was better, they would go that route now. They can of course monetize certain ways, but CWMU is cream of the crop.

Especially for large CWMU. The bigger the more season dates are going to matter in my opinion. Also the more corporations they work with the more the CWMU is a benefit.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

RandomElk16 said:


> That's more than Deseret.. Interesting.
> 
> Regardless- the idea they aren't incentivized enough in the program is funny. If the landowner route was better, they would go that route now. They can of course monetize certain ways, but CWMU is cream of the crop.
> 
> Especially for large CWMU. The bigger the more season dates are going to matter in my opinion. Also the more corporations they work with the more the CWMU is a benefit.


Agreed - the continued and increased popularity in corporate lease type deals plays heavily into the CWMU program over the private land only program.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

weaversamuel76 said:


> I'm fairly certain they are exempt from youth losing thier points with the archery tag.
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


The way I read it in the meeting minutes is they said if you have a get general buck tag you lose the points period. I hope not too but don't count on it


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## olibooger (Feb 13, 2019)

Not that I have points to give (1 elk) but that would be a bummer if they started taking OTC as points. 

Simple answer for me as an archer is get extremely good at a certain extended location and forget about any trophy harvests. 

My complex answer is move to Idaho where it seems their OTC elk aren't doing too shabby it seems.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

7MM RELOADED said:


> weaversamuel76 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm fairly certain they are exempt from youth losing thier points with the archery tag.
> ...


There is an exemption for the OTC youth archery tags. Purchasing one of those in July after the draw will not take your points. I believe it will, however take points if the youth draws an archery tag during the regular draw process.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

olibooger said:


> Not that I have points to give (1 elk) but that would be a bummer if they started taking OTC as points.
> 
> Simple answer for me as an archer is get extremely good at a certain extended location and forget about any trophy harvests.
> 
> My complex answer is move to Idaho where it seems their OTC elk aren't doing too shabby it seems.


Well good luck... I'm pretty sure the wolves up there have eaten most of the elk and are starting in on the deer real soon.:shock:........


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Amy confirmed derek1999 summation of the new regulations as correct 
No loss of preference points for otc bull tags


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

It's almost like you heard that days ago









Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

op2:


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Re: Antlerless elk preference points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middlefork
Amy,
Could we get a clarification in regards to losing your antlerless elk preference points if you you get a general season archery, Any weapon , Muzzle loader or 3 season elk tag?

And it would be very helpful to get address losing your preference points in general?

Thank you in advance.

https://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-bi...d-meeting.html
Thanks for checking on this, middlefork. Derekp1999 had it right yesterday with this post that lists what you will and won't lose points for.

You won't lose or forfeit any antlerless elk preference points for purchasing a general-season archery, any weapon, muzzleloader or 3-season bull elk tag over the counter. (For the purposes of hunting, all of those permits are considered bull elk permits, and they are not distributed through a drawing, so there aren't any preference points associated with them.)

The whole losing points thing is species-specific and sex-specific. For example, if you buy an antlerless deer permit that remains after the drawing, it won't affect your preference points for general-season buck deer or your preference points for antlerless elk. It would only affect your preference points for antlerless deer.

I hope that helps a bit!
Amy
__________________
Amy Canning
Communications Specialist
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

So I will lose my antlerless points if I buy an antlered tag?


:mrgreen:


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

:ranger:


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

What a chit show


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## olibooger (Feb 13, 2019)

stillhunterman said:


> Well good luck... I'm pretty sure the wolves up there have eaten most of the elk and are starting in on the deer real soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suppose that would be an issue. &#128514;&#129315;&#128514;

It is good to see the points have been clarified and there isnt much to worry about. &#128556;


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