# The truth about the 200 tags at the expo



## hopper1197 (Jul 26, 2010)

I have been asked who hopper1197 is in several other posts, well I am just a normal guy that is fed up with the b.s. going on in this state. So, I started writing some letters, doing a little research, and talking on the phone with people. In other words, I am trying my hardest to stir the pot with enough people to make a stink. I want to keep the sportsman of this state well aware of some of the things I am finding out. Here is the real skinny on where the 200 expo tags come from; Don Peay used his political power in Utah to strike a deal with Governor Herbert and NO not the DWR but the TOURISM BOARD to secure 200 tags to PROMOTE TOURISM TO THE STATE BY USING THE EXPO AS A MEANS OF PROMOTING UTAH. Basically he is using the tags to entice people to come to utah and apply, which makes him more money, and the state more money off of the taxes that his expo creates. So, my question to everybody is, if were all pissed off, why dont we stop talking about it and DO something about it?


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

agree


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh really? The expo and the 200 tags were around before Herbert was Gov.


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## Blanding_Boy (Nov 21, 2007)

Let me get this straight.....

Your idea of 'something' is to "writing some letters, doing a little research, and talking on the phone with people. In other words, I am trying my hardest to stir the pot with enough people to make a stink." 

That's your idea? I believe you are not the only one or even the latest person to come up with this brilliant idea, and you can see it really hasn't gone anywhere in 3 years. I don't see you getting very far with it in the future, sorry. I think that idea has been tried and tested for 3 years it didn't work, time for another idea.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Until you can get people to hate money then it will be hard to undo the damage.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

> Don Peay used his political power in Utah to strike a deal with Governor Herbert


Blackdog already brought this up, but I don't think Herbert struck up any deals......

If this is indeed fact, please share your sources, as this is all news to me........... :shock:


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

The real truth shows itself when you look at the odds. The website lists odds of 1 in 219 and 1 in 107 for deer and elk respectively. Those aren't the actual odds at all. I'm bothered by the false advertising...probably because I understand math. :roll:

To get the real odds you have to find out how many people are putting in for each individual tag. It's not at all like the DWR's draw where people can only put in for one tag. Everybody is putting in for multiple tags. There were 8,526 applicants for deer and 8,748 applicants for elk last year.

Your odds for any given tag are 1 in *THOUSANDS*! Assume everybody wants the Henry's deer tag. Odds on that tag will probably be over 1 in 9,000 this year. See what I'm saying? Consider it a miracle from God himself if you draw a big game tag at the Expo.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

What about a turkey tag birddogger??????

Are my odds any better???? Thats what Im going for, a Northern Region Turkey tag and I was convinced my odds would be better than 1 in THOUSANDS.......

I cant seem to draw in the regular draw......


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> What about a turkey tag??????
> 
> Are my odds any better????


Significantly better. Now that I wrote that the odds just got a lot worse.  The truth is your odds on a Northern tag will be a lot worse than the 1 in 33 listed on the site. Your odds get better as you put in for some obscure hunt that nobody covets. Northern or Central? Not too good.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

BirdDogger said:


> Significantly better. Now that I wrote that the odds just got a lot worse.


 :lol: That is the truth.......

I do find it very interesting how the high profile units, are so "high profile" and many awesome units that produce awesome bucks/bulls are not even thought twice about.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes the tourism organizations for Salt Lake support conventions and the money they generate. If you have family, friends or your job is in the hotel, restaurant, or transportation business this is a no brainer to support. Now if you live in the sticks you benefit from the tax revenue flowing into the state.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> What about a turkey tag birddogger??????
> 
> Are my odds any better???? Thats what Im going for, a Northern Region Turkey tag and I was convinced my odds would be better than 1 in THOUSANDS.......
> 
> I cant seem to draw in the regular draw......


Are you serious? You can buy a Turkey tag over the counter. Statewide!


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> Now if you live in the sticks you benefit from the tax revenue flowing into the state.


We could benefit a whole lot more if SFW would admit they make a nice profit instead of filing as a non-profit.  Remember that they don't pay taxes on the $3,363,380 in revenue they generated last year. I paid my taxes on a heckuva lot less than that. I'll bet most all of us did.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

this is kinda off subject, but do waiting periods apply to anyone who draws a tag in the expo drawing? for example. ive been putting in for moose in the regular state drawing for the last 6 years and have 6 points. i go to the expo and draw a moose tag there. does that count as my OIL moose tag? or can i continue to keep applying for another moose tag in the state drawing and be able to use the points i have previously built up?


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm pretty sure you dont lose your points and that there is no waiting period.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

horsesma said:


> Are you serious? You can buy a Turkey tag over the counter. Statewide!


And hunt with a million other people, not for me :O•-:

Why I am not really being serious, I am putting five bucks towards one. My whole "strategy" in the game of drawing hunts, including the expo, is pick units that no one else thinks is worth it. Its paid off for me in regular draws, just not at the expo........

Not to mention I really would rather be on a Mountain with one deer and me, than a mountain with one hundred deer and five people.......I really mean it too, its just my prefrence :|


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Here's something to think about...

So SFW and MDF get a bunch of tags to divvy out. Good, bad, whatever.

So...

Legally, what gives SFW and MDF this special privilege? Think about that for a minute and you should be worried just a bit.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> Yes the tourism organizations for Salt Lake support conventions and the money they generate. If you have family, friends or your job is in the hotel, restaurant, or transportation business this is a no brainer to support. Now if you live in the sticks you benefit from the tax revenue flowing into the state.


They can still have an expo without our tags.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Money makes the world go round!


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## wapati (Nov 29, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> Here's something to think about...
> 
> So SFW and MDF get a bunch of tags to divvy out. Good, bad, whatever.
> 
> ...


worried indeed, and to expand on that thought:

*WHO* gave them that special privilege -
and even before that, was that special arrangement ran through the appropriate channels before doing so?

I'll try and answer:
Politicians in bed with special interests for a "back scratch", and ... "no"


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> this is kinda off subject, but do waiting periods apply to anyone who draws a tag in the expo drawing? for example. ive been putting in for moose in the regular state drawing for the last 6 years and have 6 points. i go to the expo and draw a moose tag there. does that count as my OIL moose tag? or can i continue to keep applying for another moose tag in the state drawing and be able to use the points i have previously built up?


This is kinda off subject also. Didn't you say in another post that you've already drawn a moose tag?


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

blackdog said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > this is kinda off subject, but do waiting periods apply to anyone who draws a tag in the expo drawing? for example. ive been putting in for moose in the regular state drawing for the last 6 years and have 6 points. i go to the expo and draw a moose tag there. does that count as my OIL moose tag? or can i continue to keep applying for another moose tag in the state drawing and be able to use the points i have previously built up?
> ...


i had a tag for moose. but i didnt draw it. i was just giving an example. if could be mt. goat for all i care. i was just wondering how it worked


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## HUNTIN FOR LIFE (Sep 8, 2007)

If you draw an expo OIL or buy a OIL tag before you draw it in the DWR Big Game draw that will count as you OIL tag. But if you draw it through the Regular Draw you can still put in at the expo to have a chance at a second tag.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

BirdDogger said:


> > Now if you live in the sticks you benefit from the tax revenue flowing into the state.
> 
> 
> We could benefit a whole lot more if SFW would admit they make a nice profit instead of filing as a non-profit.  Remember that they don't pay taxes on the $3,363,380 in revenue they generated last year. I paid my taxes on a heckuva lot less than that. I'll bet most all of us did.


Non-profit doesn't mean they can never make a profit, it means that all profit must be re-invested or donated, after paying expenses. Churches are non profit, Catholic church is the richest entity in the world!!


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

As I understand it the Expo tags came from the non-resident pool of tags. This means if you are a resident you would have no chance at these tags at all. With the expo you do have a chance to draw a tag that otherwise would have went to a non res. It is a good deal for a Utah Resident and a crappy deal for a non resident. But all of you guys bitching are residents so I am perplexed!

Now if you say let's change the rules and put all of these 200 tags back in the resident pool for the DWR draw then great, but otherwise it makes zero sense to be upset. 

Now if I was a non resident who wanted to hunt Utah I would be pissed and have a reason to be--most of you guys don't. 

You can be pissed at SFW or the MDF for other reasons but this is a good deal for the resident--you have opportunity that you otherwise would not have.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> As I understand it the Expo tags came from the non-resident pool of tags. This means if you are a resident you would have no chance at these tags at all. With the expo you do have a chance to draw a tag that otherwise would have went to a non res. It is a good deal for a Utah Resident and a crappy deal for a non resident. But all of you guys bitching are residents so I am perplexed!
> 
> Now if you say let's change the rules and put all of these 200 tags back in the resident pool for the DWR draw then great, but otherwise it makes zero sense to be upset.
> 
> ...


My biggest complaint is that none of the money is going back to wildlife, it hasn't nothing to do with the tags right now.


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## quakeycrazy (Sep 18, 2007)

I was thinking about going this year and taking my girls so they could go see more things involving hunting. I was even going to put in for a few hunts as well since the draw of getting something so cool for only 5 bucks appealed to me. Then I looked at the list of vendors and exhibits at the expo, don't get me wrong, some of them and especially the taxi exhibits would have been cool but I could see myself wandering around for 10 minutes, see all the taxi stuff and then be left walking through seeing products I have no use for and some I couldn't even afford anyways. It was during this epiphany that I started doing the math on the odds and realized it isn't 1 in 100 or 1 in 200 odds, it is more like 1 in thousands for most of the tags I would apply for. Not worth it, I will go to Cabelas and let the kids pick out something for the money I would have wasted at the expo. What really bothers me now is how they schemed their way to get the tags and pimp out our resources without any papertrail on how the money is used.


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## wapati (Nov 29, 2007)

Airborne said:


> As I understand it the Expo tags came from the non-resident pool of tags. This means if you are a resident you would have no chance at these tags at all. With the expo you do have a chance to draw a tag that otherwise would have went to a non res. It is a good deal for a Utah Resident and a crappy deal for a non resident. But all of you guys bitching are residents so I am perplexed!
> 
> Now if you say let's change the rules and put all of these 200 tags back in the resident pool for the DWR draw then great, but otherwise it makes zero sense to be upset.
> 
> ...


Yeah, nice process - step one, declare the tags as non-res.

step 2, convert them to money tags.

It is the WHOLE unfettered process that bothers me, regardless as to whether the tags came from res or non-res pool.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

As a resident we have nothing to lose with this and everything to gain (chance at a tag you would not have, money made for Utah businesses, and tourism exposure). You guys are mad about the lack of transparency which is fine, but in my mind I can look past this as the benefits for residents easily out weigh that.

I will assume most of you are LDS, that institution has no open financial documents, no transparency, but most of you look past this because you see great benefits come from that organization.

Think about it


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## wapati (Nov 29, 2007)

Airborne said:


> As a resident we have nothing to lose with this and everything to gain (chance at a tag you would not have, money made for Utah businesses, and tourism exposure). You guys are mad about the lack of transparency which is fine, but in my mind I can look past this as the benefits for residents easily out weigh that.
> 
> I will assume most of you are LDS, that institution has no open financial documents, no transparency, but most of you look past this because you see great benefits come from that organization.
> 
> Think about it


Again, for me it is the process. If you are a res I am sure you would have your tolerant limit as well, where you TOO would not be happy. How about giving 500 tags? 1000 tags? Give them ALL the tags? It's all still good for Utah businesses, right? The process appears to be totally un-checked to me.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> As a resident we have nothing to lose with this and everything to gain (chance at a tag you would not have, money made for Utah businesses, and tourism exposure). You guys are mad about the lack of transparency which is fine, but in my mind I can look past this as the benefits for residents easily out weigh that.
> 
> I will assume most of you are LDS, that institution has no open financial documents, no transparency, but most of you look past this because you see great benefits come from that organization.
> 
> Think about it


The LDS church as a comparison is moot. They are not making money off of goods that belong to the public, whether they be residents or not. The unrest isn't motivated by selfishness, it's motivated by principle, so the tags being out of the NR pool has no bearing, IMO.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

If they were resident tags I would be upset. If they change the rules and these tags would qualify as resident tags I would be upset. But they are NON RESIDENT tags!


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Do you even realize how many organizations, business, and people make money off of public resources?!!! but you guys pick on this one. Let's look at the millions of dollars made on livestock grazing on public land, mining, look at the thousands of subsidies/tax breaks given by the government, including to churches. Be consistent and rail against all money made from a public resources--you will probably be railing against yourself in the end.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I realize you guys have your mind made up on this one so I will let it be. Have fun at the expo--I have a sneaking suspicion that many of you crying foul will be standing next to me in line validating your expo tickets


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You wont catch me there.


-DallanC


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

I won't be there!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

The expo brings in a lot of money and is a good thing. Just like any other convention or event. The thing that bothers me is that there is no percentage of money raised from the expo tags that is required to be put back into the DWR like it is with conservation tags. That's all.

I posted this on another thread..... in 2010 according to SFWs numbers there were 41001 applications for expo tags. At 5 bucks each thats $205,005. Not a whole lot compared to what conservation tags gring in. A single Sheep tage can fetch that much. Still they should be required to give back a certain percentage.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

What kind of salaries do SFW officers/leaders make? How much of that tag money goes to pay Don Peay's yearly salary?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Here you go.....

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32113&p=339600&hilit=peay+salary#p339598


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

That's what I was getting at...I find it pretty unscrupulous that these individuals would take money from public tags to pay themselves. But, based on the high salaries they get, I must assume that this is what is happening.


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## ut1031 (Sep 13, 2007)

Madhunter,
I think your numbers are way off. Each application can have many hunts checked and at 5 a pop it adds up! so, if the average app had 10 hunts applied for, that is 50 X 40,000 or roughly 2 MILLION..........how much of those $ end up in conservation projects?


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

I don't know who started the expo tags are from the non resident pool but I don't beleive its correct. The non residents get 10% of the tags go look at the tag numbers on the DWR web site and do the math, we still are getting 10%. If you take the Henry's deer tags as an example if the expo tag went back into the drawing it would be a resident tag not a non resident giving us 20% of the Henry,s tags. :shock:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> That's what I was getting at...I find it pretty unscrupulous that these individuals would take money from public tags to pay themselves. But, based on the high salaries they get, I must assume that this is what is happening.


Haha, _scruples_. :mrgreen:


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

ut1031 said:


> Madhunter,
> I think your numbers are way off. Each application can have many hunts checked and at 5 a pop it adds up! so, if the average app had 10 hunts applied for, that is 50 X 40,000 or roughly 2 MILLION..........how much of those $ end up in conservation projects?


Here is where I got my numbers from. From how this is layed out it tells you how many application went in for each species. Pretty clear cut to me. But then again....are they hiding something? Maybe!

http://huntexpo.com/images/2010-Odds.png


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## UT Elk Stalker (Apr 17, 2009)

I for one see the good and bad of both sides. One thing that I think everyone is over looking on the Expo Tag's is that if you draw the tag, you still have to buy it. Who do you buy it from? The DWR!

Res or Non-res aside those tags are still being purchased and the public is not getting the shaft for them. If you are a non-res you pay the non-res price. Residents pay the res price of the tag. With this in mind we should not care because they are getting paid for just the same as if they were in the regular draw.

The problem that I have is that SFW is making BIG BIG money for helping the DWR get those tags to hunters that would otherwise get them in the regular draw. It is a revenue generator for SFW.

The big question I have is WHY would the DWR do this??? They are losing the $10 application fee for those 200 tags. Is that a lot of money? NO but it is $2000 more than they have otherwise. It does not make sense to me. This is not the first time the DWR has done things that don't make sense to me. For example Bountiful Deer! Why pay money to a sharp sooter when they could be making money by selling the tags to hunters. Give them special instructions and guidelines to follow, collect the money, and now everyone is happy.

Oh by the way, I am starting my own foundation and am hoping the DWR will kick in some tags for me. It is the "TFDW" (Tags For Dislocated Workers) foundation. You will only be able to put in to my draw if you are currently un-employed. It will be a modest $5.00 application fee and your odds will be good because only 7.5% of the state will be able to apply for these tags. :twisted: :twisted: :roll: :twisted: :twisted:


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

MadHunter said:


> ut1031 said:
> 
> 
> > Madhunter,
> ...


Mad,

A few of us were discussing this not too long ago and no one can say for sure because of the lack of transparency but you'll notice that the on odds page the column is titled "appli*cants*", not "appli*cations*". I suspect that each person averages around 5 -10 applications each. That changes the numbers quite a bit when you think of it from that perspective.

Rumor has it they make over a million dollars easy on the expo tags and no one knows where it ends up.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

UT Elk Stalker said:


> I for one see the good and bad of both sides. One thing that I think everyone is over looking on the Expo Tag's is that if you draw the tag, you still have to buy it. Who do you buy it from? The DWR!
> 
> Res or Non-res aside those tags are still being purchased and the public is not getting the shaft for them. If you are a non-res you pay the non-res price. Residents pay the res price of the tag. With this in mind we should not care because they are getting paid for just the same as if they were in the regular draw.
> 
> ...


Diabolical scheme dude!


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## muleymadness (Jan 23, 2008)

This was approved by *Gov. Jon Huntsman Jr. * back in 2006, had nothing to do with Herbert. Although I believe the contract or time allotment ends soon and is up for re-consideration very soon if I remember correctly it was a 5 year deal or something to that effect. So this might be the last year of the deal, but will MOST likely continue.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

bullsnot said:


> Mad,
> 
> A few of us were discussing this not too long ago and no one can say for sure because of the lack of transparency but you'll notice that the on odds page the column is titled "appli*cants*", not "appli*cations*". I suspect that each person averages around 5 -10 applications each. That changes the numbers quite a bit when you think of it from that perspective.
> 
> *Rumor has it they make over a million dollars easy on the expo tags and no one knows where it ends up.*


So.....based on this can they not be sued for false advertising or misrepresentation with intent to decieve? I am not defending them I am just wondering what recourse is available to correct this. Any lawyers out there?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Honestly I think the best course of action will be to get the legislature to make some changes that govern this process. The odds should be posted to the same standards DWR posts them and more importantly a substantial part of the money should be ear marked to go back to wildlife.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Ok so after reading another persons post stating that they do not believe the expo tags come from the non res pool I did a little research and now I am eating crow!

It looks like they DO NOT come from the non resident pool--I think maybe initially (years ago) this was true or at least that is the way they sold it but not now and not going forward. The deal is they get 5% of the total amount of LE tags for the expo--just so happens that some of these tags are the cream of the crop.

So now I am mad!!!! I take back all I said about the expo--it is unfair and it is a rip to the residents!!!GRRRRR

See you in line


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

UT Elk Stalker said:


> Res or Non-res aside those tags are still being purchased and the public is not getting the shaft for them.


Well IMHO that's not entirely true. There is a public sacrifice for handing out these tags that we don't get any money from, aside from the price of the tag itself of course.

Your odds of drawing a buck deer tag is 1 in 219 at the expo. Save the Henry Mts any legal weapon tag there are NO odds for a deer tag in the draw that come even close to those odds. Incidentally the odds would increase in the draw if those tags were put back. So yes there is a sacrifice because even though you are given another chance to draw a tag at the expo, the odds are much lower you will draw the same tag from the expo compared to if they were just left in the regular draw.


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## dark_cloud (Oct 18, 2010)

Look at the bright side..............If you are putting in for an elk on the wasatch and a moose on the wasatch in the dwr draw, you cant put in for a deer, pronghorn, sheep, or mountain goat. With the expo tag you have a chance at everything, you dont have that with the dwr draw. The only reason I put in for the tags at the expo is for a chance at an animal I would never have a chance at. Yes the odds are horrible, but so are the odds for winning the Idaho lottery, but people keep buying tickets for that. If you dont like it dont go. Most of you dont want to hear this but hunting is not a right, its a privilege, and the one with the most coin is always going to win. I dont like it anymore then the rest of you, but until you can get people to hate money or catch illegal activity inside the SFW you wont change anything.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

UT Elk Stalker said:


> I for one see the good and bad of both sides. One thing that I think everyone is over looking on the Expo Tag's is that if you draw the option to buy the tag, you still have to buy it. Who do you buy it from? The DWR!
> 
> Maybe you consider it a technicality, but no one in the DWR or Expo drawings actually draws the tag, only the option to buy it! Thus, if your credit card is no good, you don't get the tag! And, if you'll notice, most, if not all, of the hunts in the Expo auctions also require you to buy licenses and tags.
> 
> ...


SFW may have started out in the right direction on the capitol steps, but when money, power, popularity and politics came into play, they were no longer who they started out to be. It happens over and over and over again with businesses, nations, politicians, families, marriages, charities, churches, and even individuals. It's something YOU all have to watch out for.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Airborne said:


> As I understand it the Expo tags came from the non-resident pool of tags. This means if you are a resident you would have no chance at these tags at all. With the expo you do have a chance to draw a tag that otherwise would have went to a non res. It is a good deal for a Utah Resident and a crappy deal for a non resident. But all of you guys bitching are residents so I am perplexed!
> 
> Now if you say let's change the rules and put all of these 200 tags back in the resident pool for the DWR draw then great, but otherwise it makes zero sense to be upset.
> 
> ...


First, I realize you have since learned the convention tags do NOT come from the non-resident pool.

In the past I was a HUGE supporter of both convention tags and conservation tags. I made the argument that even if every one of these tags were put back in the pool the impact would be negligible. I seem to recall making the assertion that they would raise my odds of drawing a permit through the DWR by .03%, yes 3/10 of one percent! But, a few folks much smarter/more astute than me pointed out that the number of tags lost is much higher than 'just' the 200 convention tags and the however many conservation tags, as the way ALL tags are issued is affected by the addiction of the money generated from these permits. The ONLY reason the harvest age objectives were raised last year was to increase/maintain the funds these tags generate for the groups that sell them and the outfitters that garner guide fees/video sales off of them! We recently read where the outfitter profiting as much as anyone is upset that the 'quality' is slipping and he is calling for a reduction in permits for the PUBLIC! Notice how these arrogant jack wagon doesn't suggest reducing the number of convention/conservation permits. I contend the REAL cost of these tags is in the THOUSANDS every year!


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