# 2018 UT Odds are Up



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/big-game-drawing-odds-and-point-reports.html


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

General deer point numbers surprised me lots people with 6,7,8 points cashing in

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## crimson obsession (Sep 7, 2008)

And once again they give you zero useful information on the general deer draw odds... which units were tapped out after 1st choice? 2nd choice? Third choice? And so on... 

Do these even reflect 2nd thru 5th choice?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Thanks! Highlights I'm seeing:

- The Paunsaugunt cactus buck hunt was guaranteed at 12 points and had a success ratio of 1 in 24.5. :shock: I was personally guessing it would go for 6 to 8 points.

- Lots of people jumping into the Book Cliffs cow bison hunt. Permits practically doubled this year compared to last year, but so did the number of applicants. Good odds on the Henry's cow tags.

- The archery bison hunt took 20 points to be guaranteed.

- The archery goat tag took 13 points to be guaranteed. Overall success ratio was 1 in 38.8, which is worse than several of the rifle tags.

- Odds on some units were actually better for the early season general rifle deer hunts than they were for the regular season.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

No wonder I didn’t draw anything...too many people in this state!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Sometimes I wonder if Thanos getting all the infinity stones and wiping out half the universe would be such a bad thing? 

There were some shifts and pool jumping going on this year. Seems like a bit more than previous years, at least on the hunts I tend to watch.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Pool jumping needs to be stopped!


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

The CWMU I love for buck deer almost doubled the odds,(from 8.3 to 14.5) I think more people are becoming wise to the different opportunity's for hunting in this state.


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## Wasatch (Nov 22, 2009)

bossloader said:


> The CWMU I love for buck deer almost doubled the odds,(from 8.3 to 14.5) I think more people are becoming wise to the different opportunity's for hunting in this state.


I noticed the exact same thing bossloader! I'm knocking on the door of that particular CWMU point wise and was surprised to see such an increase in applicants. At this rate it'll take 3-4 more years to draw rather than the 1 or 2 that I expected! :-?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That is the strange thing about draws. Next year it can swing back to where a lot fewer put in for that CWMU, you just never know


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## Steve G (Nov 29, 2016)

What is pool jumping?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

pool jumping is when you look at your points (15?) and say: "I could draw x unit with my 15 points" and so you jump to a different unit than what you typically hunt because you could draw it.


some guys never make it to that "top" point pool because they just keep getting "jumped" every year.




then, after a pool jump, we get those threads here that say "I drew x unit. I've never hunted it before. Can some of you who hunt it every year help me out?"




it all swings based off how many 400" bulls get killed the year before. 

I hate seeing 400" bulls on my unit.


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## legacy (Sep 30, 2007)

Who has at least 20 deer points that wants to put in joint with me next year??:mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

I think in another 2-3 years the draw odds will improve greatly on the general season deer with those with a few points. 



Trust the process.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Somebody drew my San Juan Bull with as many points as I have, well, had. Now I have one more...

One more thing - encouraging to see somebody drew my OIL Bull Moose with as many points as I have, not that it matters.


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## Steve G (Nov 29, 2016)

Understood. I think. So If I for example have been accumulating points only and then apply for the hunt because I finally have the time and points it would also appear the same, right? Disappointing all the same to the regular applicants I'm sure.



PBH said:


> pool jumping is when you look at your points (15?) and say: "I could draw x unit with my 15 points" and so you jump to a different unit than what you typically hunt because you could draw it.
> 
> some guys never make it to that "top" point pool because they just keep getting "jumped" every year.
> 
> ...


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

Any reason why I'm not seeing the early rifle draw odds for deer? I drew for units 4/5/6 (Chalk Creek/East Canyon/Morgan-South Rich), but don't see the odds listed. Just curious as to how I drew with no points. Not that I'm complaining.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

mav- some questions are better left not asked! :grin:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Steve G said:


> Understood. I think. So If I for example have been accumulating points only and then apply for the hunt because I finally have the time and points it would also appear the same, right? Disappointing all the same to the regular applicants I'm sure.


Technically not pool jumping, but yes, it has the same effect on those near the top point pools watching those numbers closely. (not that I know anything about that...)


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

A lot of it could also have to do with people banking points and then once they are in position to draw a tag or almost guarantee one they put in for the hunt. This allows them to schedule vacation time for the hunt and scouting days, they can actually plan it out instead of being in a hurry from the end of May until the hunt starts.

I did this on two hunts in Colorado. I had more than enough points to draw the tags and I knew that I would draw them with my points. I was able to start getting ready for the hunt the day I sent in my application.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

maverick9465 said:


> Any reason why I'm not seeing the early rifle draw odds for deer? I drew for units 4/5/6 (Chalk Creek/East Canyon/Morgan-South Rich), but don't see the odds listed. Just curious as to how I drew with no points. Not that I'm complaining.


Was it hunt DB1590? If so it is there.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here is an interesting number.
Non-res elk pool.
14,375 applied for points only.
Ges,
There's only 269 tolal LE permits avalible for NR hunters.

What a log jam coming up there!


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

Critter said:


> Was it hunt DB1590? If so it is there.


Thanks for sharing. I just missed it I guess. Interesting that anyone who applied got a tag.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Here is an interesting number.
> Non-res elk pool.
> 14,375 applied for points only.
> Ges,
> ...


But we thank them for their $10 donation that pays salary and benefits for one DWR officer, though!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm that lucky sucker with 7 points


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

RandomElk16 said:


> I'm that lucky sucker with 7 points


Frame that and hang it on your wall!

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## Don K (Mar 27, 2016)

Well I'm one happy NR that somehow managed to slip past the log jam! Thought I drew the one NR tag in the max pool but people with a couple more years than I applied. I was lucky enough to draw one of the two tags in the random. Im happy I made it through the jam!


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

maverick9465 said:


> Any reason why I'm not seeing the early rifle draw odds for deer?


The early rifle draw odds are at the bottom of the document, after muzzleloader. The placement is confusing as they aren't lumped with the other rifle results.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> But we thank them for their $10 donation that pays salary and benefits for one DWR officer, though!


Well, I'm a nonresident and still on the waiting period for elk. However, I did purchase points for all the other species - you are welcome DWR officers!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

These comments about points, pool jumping, etc., are very funny to me to read. I'm not sure if some are upset that they didn't draw a tag, and believed they should have?


I'm not one to bitch and complain if I didn't draw a tag. I get upset, and grumble for sure, but I don't vent out. (At least I don't think I do) 


I've hunted big game since 1979 and it's in my blood. Ya, I'd rather be out chasing a Deer, or whatever else has head gear. But, with an average of 1500 people moving to Utah every year if you think your having a hard time drawing now, wait and see what the odds are going to be like in 5-10 years from now. Sad to think about! 


I'd suggest folks get together and "pool" some money, and buy a lease on some property that you can hunt every year. (If yo want to hunt every year.) Look outside of Utah. Try whitetails in the Midwest, or pigs in the South. If you need to feed the Habit, there are other sources out there. A junky can always find a fix.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

buzz killer ...... but I got TOTP


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

NR LE deer pool.
12,074 purchased points.
14,604 applied forLE permits.
131 TOTAL NR deet permits available.

Equals 185 years to clear out current point holders.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Resident LE deer pool, 43,232 in current 
A few over1400 permits.
30 years to clear.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Goofy I am also doing some calculations this morning.

Resident Cereal Bowl: 900 pieces
Large Spoon Serving Size: 14 pieces
Time to clear: 64 scoops


Each one was delicious as the last.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

do any of you worry about the future of this sport, and how screwed up we're making it?
Our kids might get an opportunity to hunt, but our grandkids won't.




I just have to hope that we don't go down this same road with fishing...


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

PBH said:


> do any of you worry about the future of this sport, and how screwed up we're making it?


I don't call hunting a sport - for me personally it's part of a lifestyle.

But yes, I do worry about it. I think most of us do.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

I'm with RandomElk, right now is the "good ole days"!


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Which is why when my kids draw, we go. The only thing to keep us from going is an immediate family emergency or "trajedy".

Work is never a reason...


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

My wife and father managed to be one of the 4!!! people that didn't draw Wasatch archery elk tags with 5 points. Man our luck had totally sucked the last 7 years.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

PBH said:


> do any of you worry about the future of this sport, and how screwed up we're making it?
> Our kids might get an opportunity to hunt, but our grandkids won't.
> 
> I just have to hope that we don't go down this same road with fishing...


If they keep on having left over deer tags, then they will be alright. Granted, Utah's population might double or quadruple, which will make things interesting.

Good thing SFW has your best interests in mind.


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## Crndgs8 (Sep 14, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> Resident LE deer pool, 43,232 in current
> A few over1400 permits.
> 30 years to clear.


And they are saying there aren't enough hunters, that they need more people getting into hunting.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> These comments about points, pool jumping, etc., are very funny to me to read. I'm not sure if some are upset that they didn't draw a tag, and believed they should have?
> 
> I'm not one to bitch and complain if I didn't draw a tag. I get upset, and grumble for sure, but I don't vent out. (At least I don't think I do)
> 
> ...


I can't overstate how much of an overreaction this is to the comments that were made about pool jumping. I didn't see a single person even complain about it, just simple observations going along with other observations others have made about different aspects of the draw odds. Seems like you're projecting some anger here. It's just hunting, and even more so, a hunting forum.

I was the one that first mentioned pool jumping. I wasn't disappointed at all I didn't draw, since it would have taken an immense amount of luck to do so. In fact, many of the units/hunts I noticed pool jumps are tags I've never even applied for in my life. So again, you're overreacting in a huge way. Chill dude, It's supposed to be for fun.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Just love those bull moose odds...... :O>>:


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

gdog said:


> Just love those bull moose odds...... :O>>:


Yup, every year I look at the odds I feel more doomed then I did the year before even though I have one more point each year. Kinda bass ackwards...

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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

3arabians said:


> Yup, every year I look at the odds I feel more doomed then I did the year before even though I have one more point each year. Kinda bass ackwards...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


If you want to hunt moose. It may be better to save some dimes and make a trip up to Canada or Alaska.


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## Don K (Mar 27, 2016)

> Resident Cereal Bowl: 900 pieces
> Large Spoon Serving Size: 14 pieces
> Time to clear: 64 scoops


Did the 4 extra pieces fall on the table when eating ?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Don K said:


> Did the 4 extra pieces fall on the table when eating ?


3.92 pieces that crumbled and were drank with the milk.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> If you want to hunt moose. It may be better to save some dimes and make a trip up to Canada or Alaska.


I've been telling this to people for a very long time. If you find a hunt booking company and can be ready for a quick hunt they can save you a lot of money. I have seen Yukon moose hunts for around $7000 on a cancellation hunt but you have to be ready to commit to the hunt.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> If you want to hunt moose. It may be better to save some dimes and make a trip up to Canada or Alaska.


I know, and thats always the answer us whiners get. Critter said you can get a good deals on cancellation hunts for $7000!!!! That is SOOOO not a thing in my world. Fun to think about ever having the money for that though.

But then again I am scrapping together a pretty chunck of change for a lifesize mount of my mtn lion. I guess if you want something bad enough you can find away.

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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> If they keep on having left over deer tags, then they will be alright. Granted, Utah's population might double or quadruple, which will make things interesting.
> 
> Good thing SFW has your best interests in mind.


You should be slapped!!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> I can't overstate how much of an overreaction this is to the comments that were made about pool jumping. I didn't see a single person even complain about it, just simple observations going along with other observations others have made about different aspects of the draw odds. Seems like you're projecting some anger here. It's just hunting, and even more so, a hunting forum.
> 
> I was the one that first mentioned pool jumping. I wasn't disappointed at all I didn't draw, since it would have taken an immense amount of luck to do so. In fact, many of the units/hunts I noticed pool jumps are tags I've never even applied for in my life. So again, you're overreacting in a huge way. Chill dude, It's supposed to be for fun.


Chill ???? I love hunting, and all things outdoors. I'm not upset about NOT drawing a tag. I don't give a rats a$$ if I draw or not. I've probably hunted more Deer seasons in Utah than any person 25 years old ever will in Utah. 
Chill ??? I'm cool as a cucumber! Just stating thoughts of what I've been reading. Maybe your the one that needs a cold shower.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Well, then you completely misinterpreted what you are reading. So...either way, with all due respect (and I said with all due respect, so you are not allowed to take offense by anything I say), you need to chill. You blew that one up when others were just discussing something that actually happens in Utah's draw system. Like I said, don't get so serious about all this, it's just a hunting forum. Plus, you misread what you thought you were reading anyway. 

So, chill.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> So, chill.


Now that we are all sufficiently chilled, I would like to provide a friendly request to all the Henry's mountain bison hunters to stay in you own #@&* pool and keep out of the Book Cliffs bison "waters". Look at the Wildhorse bench hunt, dismal odds, no chance, (even if they give you two cracks at harvest;-) ) Nothing to see here!

Thank you.

:smile:;-)


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Great advice, from the master of chill.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Well, then you completely misinterpreted what you are reading. So...either way, with all due respect (and I said with all due respect, so you are not allowed to take offense by anything I say), you need to chill. You blew that one up when others were just discussing something that actually happens in Utah's draw system. Like I said, don't get so serious about all this, it's just a hunting forum. Plus, you misread what you thought you were reading anyway.
> 
> So, chill.


Respect given, no harsh feelings, or feelings hurt.

What I've read and understand so far in a nut shell is...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; having a few points, looking at the previous years odds, and then placing those points on a unit that you have a better chance to draw.

If unit A takes 12 points to draw, and you've been applying for unit B that takes 20, and now, you decide to apply for unit A instead of B because you have 15 points so the odds are better to draw a tag. (So confusing) A few folks are upset about this?

I don't see any problem with doing that. We don't know "why" they are changing units. Maybe health issues, and you want to draw a tag and have that chance of getting a giant before you cant "hit the hills hard" anymore. For whatever reason they do this, it's smart IMO.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

taxidermist said:


> Respect given, no harsh feelings, or feelings hurt.
> 
> What I've read and understand so far in a nut shell is...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; having a few points, looking at the previous years odds, and then placing those points on a unit that you have a better chance to draw.
> 
> ...


Say person wanting unit A has 12 points and someone from B comes in with 15, then person with 12 is out for one more year" or more" on lets say a Goat hunt were there's only a couple tags.It shouldn't be allowed on OIAL hunts or LE either. They should make you apply or buy a point for a specific unit. Better yet get rid of the buying points part of it and make it for you only get a point when you Apply for a specific unit. Then the odds report would be spot on.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> I don't see any problem with doing that. We don't know "why" they are changing units. Maybe health issues, and you want to draw a tag and have that chance of getting a giant before you cant "hit the hills hard" anymore. For whatever reason they do this, it's smart IMO.


I don't see a problem with it either. People can apply for whatever unit their little hearts desire, IMO.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

7MM RELOADED said:


> Say person wanting unit A has 12 points and someone from B comes in with 15, then person with 12 is out for one more year" or more" on lets say a Goat hunt were there's only a couple tags.It shouldn't be allowed on OIAL hunts or LE either. They should make you apply or buy a point for a specific unit. Better yet get rid of the buying points part of it and make it for you only get a point when you Apply for a specific unit. Then the odds report would be spot on.


This is sarcastic - right???


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Not being allowed to switch units per species would be ridiculous!


Not only do odds change bur so do conditions and quality per unit.
I rarely apply for the same unit for more than two conceptual years.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Not only do odds change bur so do conditions and quality per unit.
> I rarely apply for the same unit for more than two conceptual years.


This is weird to me.

Someone said (who was it?) that they hunt because it's a lifestyle. Something like that.

We hunt a specific unit. We don't hunt it because of quality, or quantity of animals, or location to our homes. We hunt it because we love spending time outdoors in that unit. I imagine we won't change this any time soon. Why would we? We love it over there. It's the best unit in the state, by far. We know every little nook and cranny on that unit. We know where there's water, and where there isn't -- and where there used to be. We even know the names of every hereford grazing on that unit. (They all have the same name -- SumBitch.)

Wouldn't it be great if we could also draw a tag for that unit?
Oh well. We'll just keep enjoying our time out there.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think it’s time to change my name to heppy. I’ll hike slower than you guys, and I’ve got a pretty wicked tailing loop, but you’ll accept me anyway...right?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

PBH said:


> This is weird to me.
> 
> Someone said (who was it?) that they hunt because it's a lifestyle. Something like that.
> 
> ...


Pool jumping? Welcome again to the unintended consequences of Option #2! They never end. :sad:


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

PBH said:


> Someone said (who was it?) that they hunt because it's a lifestyle. Something like that.


That was me 

I like hunting our spot too. Is it the best by B&C, P&Y, SFW standards? Nope.. Do I know "better" areas? Absolutely. But it's where our family spends our time, so it's the best unit for us - it's a lifestyle not a competition (sport).


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> I think it's time to change my name to heppy. I'll hike slower than you guys, and I've got a pretty wicked tailing loop, but you'll accept me anyway...right?


You can't be any weirder than Matt Graham -- and we let him hunt with us one year....

...just leave the leather loincloth at home.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I guess some people just don't understand that despite having "earned" points, you are never entitled to getting a tag. Unit specific LE/OIAL points? Seriously?!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> I guess some people just don't understand that despite having "earned" points, you are never entitled to getting a tag. Unit specific LE/OIAL points? Seriously?!


for me, it has nothing to do with being entitled to getting a tag. It has more to do with keeping the rest of you morons out of my unit!!


(this is exactly why I don't like seeing 400" bulls on my unit. Yeah. It's mine. )


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH - Your unit is kicking them out pretty regularly now. (Meaning at least one killed each year, usually multiple as of late.) And they are being published all over the social mediasphere by those that have figured out how to utilize that platform to make money. I like seeing them, but I always feel a little dirty when I do. 

Johnny-I disagree about the “entitled” part. If you’ve played by the rules, are eligible under the law/rules to get the tag, and you have the most preference points, you are entitled to that tag under the law. Of course, they can always change the law and screw people over, but if you’re following the rules, They can’t just say “We don’t want you to have a tag, so we’re giving it to someone else.” That’s how the expo draw works, not the real draw. (Oops, did I say that out loud?)


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> I guess some people just don't understand that despite having "earned" points, you are never entitled to getting a tag. Unit specific LE/OIAL points? Seriously?!


WHAT!!! After not being able to put in for 5 years I would think that after a few years and building up points to say... 3 or 4, I am entitled to get a tag.
;-)
Isn't it the "entitlement era" now?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Johnny-I disagree about the "entitled" part. If you've played by the rules, are eligible under the law/rules to get the tag, and you have the most preference points, you are entitled to that tag under the law. Of course, they can always change the law and screw people over, but if you're following the rules, They can't just say "We don't want you to have a tag, so we're giving it to someone else." That's how the expo draw works, not the real draw. (Oops, did I say that out loud?)


There are just a few qualifiers on your disagreement, and as written, I agree with your position. However, where I was getting at--albeit lacking some clarity I guess--is that the DWR/WB/Legis/etc could change the whole system before next season and all the points you "earned" under the old system could become meaningless. The DWR could determine they issued too many tags for a given hunt right before the season and invalidate those tags and restore the unlucky winners' points (it's happened before). Even when you get that tag in your hands, there are limits to the entitlement and it can be taken away. Or given back, I guess (still seriously chapped over the Wild Horse bench crap).

Philosophically, this is a major reason why I have in recent years converted to the straight draw philosophy over a points system. In a points system people feel like they are entitled to getting a particular tag eventually--and that is simply not always the case. Points create a false sense of expectation, which when left unfulfilled from tag cuts, applicant increases/pool jumping, or what have you, further drives up the average expectation of one day getting an uncrowded hunting experience with trophy bucks/bulls behind every bush. Note, I didn't say ALL expectations end up like this, but rather from what I can tell it is the average expectation that goes down that path. Just look at the numbers of complaints/fights/etc we see posted up here every year for any number of units. GS/upland/cow hunters "ruining" LE hunters experiences; So-and-so drew "my" tag with 2 points and I have 12, and my buddy drew 2 years ago with 10 so its my turn; and so on.

The average hunter under the UT point system 1) doesn't have the foggiest clue as to how it actually works/point creep/pool jumping; 2) has unrealistic expectations of drawing X tag before they die; and 3) has unrealistic expectations as to the hunt itself. Moving away from a point system wouldn't "solve" these problems, but I think it would at a minimum improve them and make it easier for everybody to understand what odds they are facing.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Johnny makes a valid point. I believe that if people ever understood the way the draw really works they would want some sort of change.

Just 2 days ago I had a fellow in my shop telling me he should draw the Henry Mtns rifle deer in the next year or two. I asked him how many points he had. 18. I didn't have the heart to tell him he is 10+ years away minimum and it could be more than 20 years. Unless he got really lucky.....

Oh and I am also a point pool jumper.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

#TeamPoolJumper

I jump pools 60% of the time, every time.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

johnnycake said:


> #TeamPoolJumper
> 
> I jump pools 60% of the time, every time.


Pffft. You probably pee in the pool too. :roll:;-)


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Catherder said:


> Pffft. You probably pee in the pool too. :roll:;-)


And in the shower. For the environment. #slowtheflow #saveH2O


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

johnnycake said:


> The average hunter under the UT point system 1) doesn't have the foggiest clue as to how it actually works/point creep/pool jumping; 2) has unrealistic expectations of drawing X tag before they die; and 3) has unrealistic expectations as to the hunt itself.


+1. And my sincere prayer is that the average hunters all stay that way (except for #3). I'm utterly convinced most people don't even look at the odds or understand the system.

One prime example are the cow bison tags. I marvel every year at how few people are applying for cow bison tags. Not that the odds are good, but... there are a lot of people who could pool jump and draw a cow tag right now, but who will probably never draw a bull tag.

For example, the Henry's late hunt drew at 13 points. There were 2,532 people (counting point buyers and applicants) with 13 or more points. 2,532 people who left a guaranteed cow tag on the table, most of them probably thinking they'll draw a bull tag if they stick it out. Many of them won't.

Eventually, though, people are going to wonder why on earth they haven't drawn when they have 20+ points. They'll look up the odds. They'll get wise. And then they'll pool jump like crazy. IMO, the days of cow tags for less than 15 points are numbered. They'll be just a few points behind the bull tags before long.

I seriously considered choosing bison for my OIAL because of the cow odds. But I decided I wasn't going to bet on them staying so good. It's a ticking time bomb.

And one could say the same about a lot of the deer/elk/etc. hunts too. I just wonder how bad it's going to have to get before the average hunter starts pressuring the wildlife board to do something about it.

Thank goodness I like waterfowl hunting. I'm looking forward to my 107 day season.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Packout said:


> Johnny makes a valid point. I believe that if people ever understood the way the draw really works they would want some sort of change.
> 
> Just 2 days ago I had a fellow in my shop telling me he should draw the Henry Mtns rifle deer in the next year or two. I asked him how many points he had. 18. I didn't have the heart to tell him he is 10+ years away minimum and it could be more than 20 years. Unless he got really lucky.....
> 
> Oh and I am also a point pool jumper.


I shared a campfire with a young man on the spring bear hunt not too long ago. We started talking about elk points and he said he had 15 points. I asked what hunt he was after "San Juan" he replied. "I should get the early rifle tag in a year or two".

I didnt have the heart to tell him his expectations need some serious re-evaluation.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

The Henry cow hunts have already spiked considerably the last few years. Once they created that late cow hunt in 2012 the next few years 9-10 points was in the bonus pool. The nice things about bison are that their reproductivity, disease tolerance, and lack of predators in Utah make them very stable. The primary reason we don't have more bison than elk in Utah is the vocal agricultural interests that oppose reductions in their grazing allotments. Utah's Henry herd has an average annual growth of ~9%. Note that is growth, so after calf/winter/hunting mortality is factored in. 

They take 200-300 head off antelope island every year to maintain 700-1000 animals. 

I'll take those growth rates and resiliency over any of the other oial species every time.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

johnnycake said:


> The Henry cow hunts have already spiked considerably the last few years. Once they created that late cow hunt in 2012 the next few years 9-10 points was in the bonus pool. The nice things about bison are that their reproductivity, disease tolerance, and lack of predators in Utah make them very stable. The primary reason we don't have more bison than elk in Utah is the vocal agricultural interests that oppose reductions in their grazing allotments. Utah's Henry herd has an average annual growth of ~9%. Note that is growth, so after calf/winter/hunting mortality is factored in.
> 
> They take 200-300 head off antelope island every year to maintain 700-1000 animals.
> 
> I'll take those growth rates and resiliency over any of the other oial species every time.


Yeah, they're still a way better bet than the desert bighorn tags I apply for. But... I just figured I'd have to get lucky regardless, so I may as well go for the one I probably won't ever get to hunt any other way. I'm planning to do moose and goat in Canada. And I'm only two points behind the max bison pool in South Dakota, so I might draw that one in 40 years.

But I may have to re-evaluate if certain rumblings come to pass...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Clarq, if your desire is to not have people figure out draw odds to get a tag, then telling people exactly how to do it seems like a weird way of going about that.

Especially with *MY*bison tag I'm planning on drawing. You just gave away my plan to draw a cow tag.

First we have pool jumpers, now tag-blockers. Bro code was seriously violated here. What am I going to do when I can't get the tag I'm entitled to now?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> First we have pool jumpers, now tag-blockers. Bro code was seriously violated here. What am I going to do when I can't get the tag I'm entitled to now?


Dry your tears with your Kuiu Verde 2.0 Spanx?


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

What if the application process went back to what it was years ago? 


You had to front the cost of the tag at the time of applying for that hunt. That might keep a few people from applying for everything possible???? That could better the draw odds for some species.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

taxidermist said:


> What if the application process went back to what it was years ago?
> 
> You had to front the cost of the tag at the time of applying for that hunt. That might keep a few people from applying for everything possible???? That could better the draw odds for some species.


NM did just that a few years ago and is still in practice today. It worked the first and second year, but then people just realized they could get a special card and apply for everything under the sun full well knowing they would get back close to 85% less the app fees. Now there are record number of applications, mostly due to a no point system.

Some are really lucky and seem to draw every year or at least every other year while some can go 20 without drawing - no different than UT's point system in that regard. But, you do have more opportunity to hunt (and draw) because quantity outweighs quality for the most part because of the management model. NM isn't tied at the hip with SFW the way ya'll are - sorry... :-|


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Taxi, I think that would only really impact nonresident apps, if anything. There probably would be some people that wouldn’t apply, but not a noticeable difference. And are there not states that do this practice now considering stopping due to the cost? 

Johnny, you’ve proved again that your wisdom is well beyond your years!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Clark -- some of us average hunters do understand. Especially the bison cow tags. But some of us are smart enough to understand that it takes more than points to harvest a bison. Aside from having a tag, it also takes time away from work, money to invest in a OIL hunt, money to invest in whatever mount you wish to have done after, time to scout, a weapon upgrade, etc., etc.


Some of us actually do think about this process. It's not just a "how many points do I have and how many will it take" process. It might also be a "is this the right year" kind of decision as well.



I've got enough to draw the cow. But the timing isn't right. So I'll continue to collect, and in the next few years I'll pool jump. Sorry Vanilla -- it's MINE!


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Had high hopes for archery bison but looks like it's going to take 20 points for awhile so I'll be moving pools myself next year. 
I like to see new country and explore this beautiful state hunting the same unit may be more productive but sure gets boring. Challenge yourself and break outside bubble and see if your that hunter you think you are and hunt a unit at random. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I think Moose is the most misunderstood pool. I talk to people with 12-15 points who are dead set they will get a tag soon, not realizing the thousands(like, lots of them) of people they are up against for a few tags.

Unlike you gentlemen - I have tried to tell a couple people how the pool work and they still don't get it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

People are constantly shocked when I tell them how many elk points I have and that I haven’t drawn the SJ unit yet. I smile (to keep in my tears) and simply say...”8 more years, if I’m lucky.”


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> I think Moose is the most misunderstood pool. I talk to people with 12-15 points who are dead set they will get a tag soon, not realizing the thousands(like, lots of them) of people they are up against for a few tags.


There are 3 people on this forum with 21 points. When any of us start drawing (which will be in the next 5 years), you can tell them they have +30 years to go.

I'm probably going to let my boy shoot it... I've long since lost the yearning to kill a swamp donkey.

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Packout said:


> .... I asked him how many points he had. 18. I didn't have the heart to tell him he is 10+ years away minimum and it could be more than 20 years. Unless he got really lucky.....


This is why I believe (their is a part of me with a lot of points doesn't) that the draw should be completely random. If you draw an LE tag you have a waiting period and so on but it should be all at random. I also think we should put our money up front and pay for the most expensive tag we apply for.

After all it is a drawing/lottery, right? How many PowerBall or MegaMillions preference points have you'all built up over the years?

Just one guys opinion!


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Clarq, if your desire is to not have people figure out draw odds to get a tag, then telling people exactly how to do it seems like a weird way of going about that.
> 
> Especially with *MY*bison tag I'm planning on drawing. You just gave away my plan to draw a cow tag.
> 
> First we have pool jumpers, now tag-blockers. Bro code was seriously violated here. What am I going to do when I can't get the tag I'm entitled to now?


Calm down. What I posted was buried on page 8 of yet another discussion on draw odds, point creep, pool-jumping, etc. Anyone who is insane enough to read along this far already knows everything I'm saying.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

PBH said:


> Clark -- some of us average hunters do understand. Especially the bison cow tags. But some of us are smart enough to understand that it takes more than points to harvest a bison. Aside from having a tag, it also takes time away from work, money to invest in a OIL hunt, money to invest in whatever mount you wish to have done after, time to scout, a weapon upgrade, etc., etc.
> 
> Some of us actually do think about this process. It's not just a "how many points do I have and how many will it take" process. It might also be a "is this the right year" kind of decision as well.
> 
> I've got enough to draw the cow. But the timing isn't right. So I'll continue to collect, and in the next few years I'll pool jump. Sorry Vanilla -- it's MINE!


Jump while you can. It's going to get harder very soon, if my predictions hold true.

And sorry, but you don't count as an average hunter.

- You're a regular on a wildlife forum
- Not only that, but you're on page 9 of a thread about draw odds/point creep at 7:00 in the morning
- You mentioned on another thread recently that hunting is a "lifestyle", if I remember right

I'm talking about guys like me neighbor, who apply every year and hunt maybe once every 10-15 years when they draw a "quality" tag. Guys who don't eat, sleep, and breathe it, but who still enjoy it every once in awhile. I talked to him a few years back. He's applying for the early bull hunt on the Henry's. He had 13 points at the time (and is now at 17). I mentioned that he could probably get a cow tag, and he said, "no, I think I'll get a bull tag soon".

He was 60 years old at the time. I have to think he didn't know what he was up against if he was talking like that. And I wasn't well-versed enough in the drawing odds at the time to tell him.

And sure, there are lots of reasons not to take a Henry Mountains cow tag. That hunt is no joke. But... looking at odds for that hunt, and so many others, I'm convinced most people don't realize what they're really up against when they apply for OIAL and certain LE tags. It takes quite a bit of digging to understand the process, find the info, etc.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

weaversamuel76 said:


> I like to see new country and explore this beautiful state hunting the same unit may be more productive but sure gets boring. Challenge yourself and break outside bubble and see if your that hunter you think you are and hunt a unit at random.


hmmm....

I could take offense to this. Oh, heck, who am I fooling. I do take offense!

FWIW -- I hunt nearly the largest unit in the state. This unit covers elevation from 11,317 feet down to 3,600 feet! It covers every type of terrain that the state of Utah offers. High alpine? We hunt it. Mid elevation aspen? Check. Oak, pinyon/juniper? You bet. Redrock slot canyons, filtering water from sandstone tanks (when it was deposited a month prior), and baking in the desert sun? I'm in.

Challenge myself?
Break from the bubble?
See if I'm the hunter I think I am?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: you don't know me.

I'm not a great "hunter" in the traditional sense that many think of when they talk of great hunters. I don't kill very many animals, and I'm certainly not in any record books. Do I challenge myself? Do I break out from the normal bubbles? Hell yes. My brothers and I are certainly breaking from any bubble! Most people that know us consider us crazy. We love to explore -- and we plan on exploring every inch of that 5,348 square miles of MY unit. No random necessary.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

PBH said:


> hmmm....
> 
> I could take offense to this. Oh, heck, who am I fooling. I do take offense!
> 
> ...


 Glad it's working out for you sounds like an awesome place to spend a few days in the fall. Pm me "YOUR" unit sounds like an adventure waiting to happen. I've hunted a bunch of places but never a unit that had it all. The "Holy Grail of Honey Holes" I'll need GPS coordinates just to verify it has everything Thanks

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

PBH said:


> hmmm....
> 
> I could take offense to this. Oh, heck, who am I fooling. I do take offense!
> 
> ...


Where do we ship your gold star to?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

PBH
I was hunting "your unit" when hwy 12 was a dirt forest road.
So its really, MY unit...lol.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

PBH doesn't need anyone to corroborate his story, but he does hunt in the exact terrain he stated above. Check out the deer pic in the "as it lay" thread. And for the record-- I would love to hunt where he does! My old hunting buddy invited me to hunt the rock and I didn't take him up on it. I regret that decision.
There is something about hunting old haunts to bring back the nostalgia of the hunt. I enjoy hunting the spots my father took me when I was a kid.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> People are constantly shocked when I tell them how many elk points I have and that I haven't drawn the SJ unit yet. I smile (to keep in my tears) and simply say..."8 more years, if I'm lucky."


San Juan is way overrated. Draw a different unit like Wasatch before it's too late. When all your points are gone, hoping for the SJ will be a non issue.

:smile:


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> People are constantly shocked when I tell them how many elk points I have and that I haven't drawn the SJ unit yet. I smile (to keep in my tears) and simply say..."8 more years, if I'm lucky."


How many points do you have?


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## Don K (Mar 27, 2016)

> Where do we ship your gold star to?


Stars are obsolete, participation trophy's are the new thing


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

sheepassassin said:


> Where do we ship your gold star to?


AH, Option #2! Ain't it wonderful for bringing us together in a common cause.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Packout,
The. 'Rock' is Mount Dutton.
Different unit than PBH is referring too.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

PBH said:


> hmmm....
> 
> I could take offense to this. Oh, heck, who am I fooling. I do take offense!
> 
> FWIW -- I hunt nearly the largest unit in the state. This unit covers elevation from 11,317 feet down to 3,600 feet!


Great spot. TOP


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Packout,
> The. 'Rock' is Mount Dutton.
> Different unit than PBH is referring too.


Yes, the "rock" is usually a term used with Dutton, but I've heard some "locals" refer to Hepps unit as "the rock" also on occasion. And in matters like naming, locals are never wrong. ;-)

OK, full disclosure, I hunt on PBH's unit too.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Packout said:


> There is something about hunting old haunts to bring back the nostalgia of the hunt. I enjoy hunting the spots my father took me when I was a kid.


Word! As I get older, the above feelings of hunting these places holds more motivation than the possible increased probability of harvesting a big buck elsewhere.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Packout,
> The. 'Rock' is Mount Dutton.
> Different unit than PBH is referring too.


Look at his "as they lay" pic and you will understand. Lots of places called rock.....


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> How many points do you have?


21 and counting.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Dang- that is enough points for us to put in together, draw a unit and hunt 375"+ bulls. I'd even let you shoot the biggest and I'll take the table scraps...... haha


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> 21 and counting.


Wow - that is quite the dedication and discipline to wait for the SJ. When you draw, are you going to hire a guide? I've seen what you darn attorneys charge - you could answer a couple emails and completely pay for the hunt.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> If you want to hunt moose. It may be better to save some dimes and make a trip up to Canada or Alaska.


Too many twinks up that way, or so I hear.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> PBH
> I was hunting "your unit" when hwy 12 was a dirt forest road.
> So its really, MY unit...lol.


I spent 3 years fighting wildfires on that unit, so even though I have never really hunted it, I am going to go ahead and throw my hat in the ring for some kind of claim and ownership of it. But if you talk to the yahoos over in Escalante it is THEIR mountain and everybody else needs to just go away.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Too many twinks up that way, or so I hear.


At least one twink anyway. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Reading this thread reinforces my longing that I should have been born during my grandpa's generation. He never did get the opportunity to build points for a couple decades waiting for what is basically a OIAL crack at a 350 bull, but that was probably of little concern to him while he was out knocking down multiple limits of roosters every year (real wild ones, not ones that were released from a cage) and buying an OTC GS deer tag every year.

As it stands right now I am pretty content with my hunting situation. I draw my GS archery deer tag every year and I always seem to be lucky enough to score one of the unlimited GS archery elk tags and have even been doing pretty good at filling them. With the unrelenting growth Utah is facing, however, it really does make me wonder what the futures holds. Anybody have a crystal ball or a seer stone in a hat?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Wow - that is quite the dedication and discipline to wait for the SJ. When you draw, are you going to hire a guide? I've seen what you darn attorneys charge - you could answer a couple emails and completely pay for the hunt.


It's not waiting for just the SJ, although that's really where my elk hunting dreams started many, many years ago on a muzzy deer hunt. I'll never forget laying in my sleeping bag listening to bulls scream around the camp most of the night. I couldn't sleep. It was my first experience with rutting elk. Hiking into where we where hunting and listening to the bulls chatter in the dark is something I'll never forget. We saw some special bulls on that trip.

I'd be absolutely stoked with any of about 4 or 5 units with an early rifle tag in my hand. It's just all those units take more points than I have to pull that tag. It is not San Juan or bust, but I set out a long time ago hoping for one chance at a true trophy bull. I'm still intent on going after that experience. Before anyone jumps on their high horse and lectures me about expectations, I know nothing is guaranteed. I know it's still hunting and I might not see a bull, let alone kill one I'm dreaming about. But I still want to try.

I actually pool jumped in 2017 to a different unit, hoping the change would throw off those at the DWR sabotaging me. It didn't work. With this many points, I should have drawn these tags years ago, right? :grin:

Who knows, maybe in 6 years I'll do a group app with my daughter and then mentor my tag to my other daughter and let them both kill awesome bulls on the Manti? Or maybe I'll draw the tag of my dreams and go have the time of my life on a premium unit? Or all you wankers with no points will convince Utah to screw me over one final time and zero out my points? Who knows?

CPAjeff, no, I would not be planning to hire a guide. I'd rather hunt with family and friends and be at a disadvantage for the big boys than go the guided option. But again, maybe I'll hate all those people by the time I draw in 2067 and I won't want them around anymore.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Could be worse. I have an extended family member that had 23 points going in this year. He could have likely drawn san juan early. Didnt and bought another point. Now has 24 elk points. When I asked if he put in this year he said "no I bought another freaking point" I asked "when are you going to hunt". His answer "I dont know, I'm getting so old I dont really care anymore".

Was pretty sad to hear that. 



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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm at a place now where it doesn't make any sense to just buy a point for LE elk. I might as well put in and earn a point anyway, right? I too have my eyes fixed on the SJ horizon, I know where I'll go if that day happens (if ever).

I have a better chance at drawing SJ than I do a NM Desert Bighorn, but I put in anyway...


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> But if you talk to the yahoos over in Escalante it is THEIR mountain and everybody else needs to just go away.


I thought everyone in Escalante moved away, and now it's just "move-in" yuppies??

I've never called MY unit "the rock". I've never heard it referred to that either. Doesn't mean it isn't by some. We just call it Boulder. Or "the desert". Sometimes " the 50". Sometimes Parker, or Griffin. Other times Canaan. Sometimes you have to drive to Kanab and Big Water to get there. Sometimes you drive to Teasdale, or Antimony, or Canonville.

where's my trophy?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> where's my trophy?


Here ya go:









-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

CRAP! Is the forum being invaded by snowflakes? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

3arabians said:


> At least one twink anyway.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


My furry physique might belie that label...8)


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

3arabians said:


> Could be worse. I have an extended family member that had 23 points going in this year. He could have likely drawn san juan early. Didnt and bought another point. Now has 24 elk points. When I asked if he put in this year he said "no I bought another freaking point" I asked "when are you going to hunt". His answer "I dont know, I'm getting so old I dont really care anymore".
> 
> Was pretty sad to hear that.


A little less than half of those with 23 points drew, so about a 50/50 chance. You can tell him that going forward we can put in as a group together. His extra points gets me ahead of everyone in my pool, which at a minimum cuts my wait down 5 years. I'll cook him a hot dog around the camp fire when we draw as payment.

Amazing what only 1 extra point does for you at the top of the pool. Makes me sick to realize I have two random years where I did not apply for anything elk related those years for some reason after I had started applying? I want to punch myself in the face for that. In fact, excuse me while I go kick my own butt.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

I did also one year for buffalo when i didn't even put in because I knew I would draw my elk tag with my points that year. Duh! Man would I give $500 bucks or more to have that point right now

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I had to laugh at a couple areas that aren't great hunts and guys used up their points to get a tag there.


Any updates on getting draw odds on the greater northern reticulated wombat?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Maybe that is what the DWR should start doing-selling points! Why not? We sell everything else that has to do with our wildlife these days...


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bax* said:


> I had to laugh at a couple areas that aren't great hunts and guys used up their points to get a tag there.


Well devils advocate here, I know someone who was diagnosed with cancer and only had a limited time left to live and didnt have a chance to draw his dream unit. He cashed in his points for a sure fire draw unit and got the change to have a final hunt.

-DallanC


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

They do sell points - $10 each. What a bargain!!!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> They do sell points - $10 each. What a bargain!!!


Can you imagine how much some people would pay to get to 25 points after coming off their waiting period? Just think of the revenue. Maybe they can even earmark some of those incoming funds to go straight to SFW to help defer some of their administrative costs, or to fund wolf lobbying with BGF?

Just think of the possibilities!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Can you imagine how much some people would pay to get to 25 points after coming off their waiting period? Just think of the revenue. Maybe they can even earmark some of those incoming funds to go straight to SFW to help defer some of their administrative costs, or to fund wolf lobbying with BGF?
> 
> Just think of the possibilities!


I think in terms of real possibilities, we will see a push to make bonus points multi-generational... or transferable. We are sortof there with the Mentor tags.

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Can you imagine how much some people would pay to get to 25 points after coming off their waiting period? Just think of the revenue. Maybe they can even earmark some of those incoming funds to go straight to SFW to help defer some of their administrative costs, or to fund wolf lobbying with BGF?
> 
> Just think of the possibilities!


Waiting period? I moved out of Utah for 5 years and stopped buying points because I was under the impression that I couldn't add to my "resident" points as a "non-resident". I actually lost out on 6 points so I am 6 points (err..... 135 years) off the top. I'd gladly buy those 6 points I missed out on.

I'm gonna go beat myself up again. Excuse me for a minute......


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Can you imagine how much some people would pay to get to 25 points after coming off their waiting period? Just think of the revenue. Maybe they can even earmark some of those incoming funds to go straight to SFW to help defer some of their administrative costs, or to fund wolf lobbying with BGF?
> 
> Just think of the possibilities!


I would gladly pay $1125 in cash for 25 points and an LE San Juan bull permit. I would also be willing to donate an additional $500 to keep SFW out of that unit indefinitely.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> I would gladly pay $1125 in cash for 25 points and an LE San Juan bull permit. I would also be willing to donate an additional $500 to keep SFW out of that unit indefinitely.


Ha! If you wanted to go to 25 points I think you'd need to add a zero to the end and mutiply that total by three or four and then you might be in the market if this ever became a reality. Then again, maybe that wouldn't even do it?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Ha! If you wanted to go to 25 points I think you'd need to add a zero to the end and mutiply that total by three or four and then you might be in the market if this ever became a reality. Then again, maybe that wouldn't even do it?


I will bid that +$0.01 (on Vanilla's behalf of course, he'll swing by later to pay the tab)


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Just because

#TOTP


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Ha! If you wanted to go to 25 points I think you'd need to add a zero to the end and mutiply that total by three or four and then you might be in the market if this ever became a reality. Then again, maybe that wouldn't even do it?


25, add a zero = 250. 250 × 4 = 1000. Sign me up if we're talking cash!!!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Nope, add a zero to $1125 then multiple by 3 or 4. 

11250x3=33750
11250x4=45000

Probably more like multiply it by 5 or 6 now that I think of it. And you might be in the market.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Nope, add a zero to $1125 then multiple by 3 or 4.
> 
> 11250x3=33750
> 11250x4=45000
> ...


So now you're changing the rules...

For $15,000 I can go to the San Carlos Apache Res and shoot a 380" bull - and use the remaining to drive down in my new truck!!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Just some of the results from the 2017 hunt expo auctions for elk tags:

Pahvant: $36k
Wasatch multi-season: $15.5k
Book Cliffs: $20.5k 
Boulder (archery only): $23k
Dutton multi-season: $17k
Boulder (any weapon): $37k 
Boulder multi-season: $52.5k
San Juan multi-season: $55k

There were more, lots more. But this gives you the idea sufficiently. So, yes, people will pay those amounts to jump back to the front of the line. I say we do it! And let SFW administer the program so they can take 75% of the proceeds to cover administrative costs. What could go wrong?


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> ...let SFW administer the program...What could go wrong?


Where to start...


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

High Desert Elk said:


> I would gladly pay $1125 in cash for 25 points and an LE San Juan bull permit. I would also be willing to donate an additional $500 to keep SFW out of that unit indefinitely.


Vanillabean


> Ha! If you wanted to go to 25 points I think you'd need to add a zero to the end and mutiply [_sic_] that total by three or four and then you might be in the market if this ever became a reality. Then again, maybe that wouldn't even do it?


HDE


> 25, add a zero = 250. 250 × 4 = 1000. Sign me up if we're talking cash!!!


Vanillabean


> Nope, add a zero to $1125 then multiple by 3 or 4.
> 
> 11250x3=33750
> 11250x4=45000
> ...


HDE


> So now you're changing the rules...


Pretty sure the only one that changed the "rules" here is you HDE...but that's beside the point.

As for those saying you can hunt the San Carlos Apache Reservation for trophy bull elk for ~$15,000....maybe 20-30 years ago you could, but to purchase one of the tags not in the tribe's lottery draw system you are looking at $40k. And there are only 2 tags per unit on the reservation available for that and they are booked years in advance.
http://www.scatrecreation.org/trophy-elk-hunting-2

There is always the draw through the tribe where if you win that particular lottery you'll only pay $4,500 if you draw ($26 app fee, straight draw, low odds). But then you are still needing to have powerball style luck.

The reason the Utah auction tags sell for what they do is because the product demand is there in the market. There isn't really anywhere you can buy a free-range bull elk tag/hunt for under $15k with a reasonable expectation of a +360" bull. Sure, there is always a chance for a giant on a number of cheaper hunts, but a much more likely reality is that the bulls will be great bulls in the the 300-340" range.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

johnnycake said:


> bulls in the the 300-340" range.


And no one wants those!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

RandomElk16 said:


> And no one wants those!


Which is why I originally used a particular adjective preceding your quote "*great *bulls in the 300-340" range"


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> And no one wants those!


Which is why everyone is pool jumping into MY unit!!!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

PBH said:


> Which is why everyone is pool jumping into MY unit!!!


You charging a trespass fee?
:closed_2:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> Which is why everyone is pool jumping into MY unit!!!


CANNON-BALL!






-DallanC


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

johnnycake said:


> Which is why I originally used a particular adjective preceding your quote "*great *bulls in the 300-340" range"


Oh I know you prefaced it with that. It's funny thought because a 320-340 should absolutely be considered the bull of a lifetime. That can be a 10-15 year old warrior and people are like "meh".

I would love to pay 1K for these small 320's while guys pay 100K for 360+ lol


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> You charging a trespass fee?
> :closed_2:


nope. And I'd waive my guide fee too.:welcome:



RandomElk16 said:


> I would love to pay 1K for these small 320's while guys pay 100K for 360+ lol


I'd shoot a rag horn. but I'm not paying 1k. I'm not paying 1k for a 400 class bull either. If it comes to that, I'll use my money for a worthwhile activity that involves a flyrod.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> Pretty sure the only one that changed the "rules" here is you HDE...but that's beside the point.
> 
> As for those saying you can hunt the San Carlos Apache Reservation for trophy bull elk for ~$15,000...maybe 20-30 years ago you could...


Nope and nope.

1) didn't specify which number to add a zero to, so my claim to use 25 is perfectly legit to set the rule by.

2) a friend of mine killed a 380" bull there for $7500 about 10 years ago, not 20 or 30, which is why I wrote what I wrote.

But, this is also besides the point. Ever since SFW has been auctioning off bull permits for several thousand dollars, other players have started doing the same. Of course the Jic Apache have been doing this for several years, opening mail in bid for a Horse Lake Mesa Game Park mule deer hunt began at $30k and bull hunts were $15k plus trophy fees, avg bull being 350", before SFW was even a glimmer in UT DWR's eye.

A high fence big buck or bull may not mean much to blue collar hunters, but to the fat cat the only thing that matters is sitting back with a big cigar and big "Texas Grin" with his 215" muley or 392" 6x6 bull elk.

But I digress, carry on...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I want to kill a 215 inch muley or 390 inch 6x6 bull. 

That would be AWESOME!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

High Desert Elk said:


> 2) a friend of mine killed a 380" bull there for $7500 about 10 years ago, not 20 or 30, which is why I wrote what I wrote.


Interesting, and your sure that wasn't for a tag he had to draw first? I've kept tabs on a number of the reservation hunts for about the past 15 years and I don't recall ever seeing the non-draw trophy hunts listed for under $20k on the San Carlos. But I have been wrong before, it happens every decade or two. :mrgreen:

All's I know is that I'm looking forward to skipping the line on a nice bull tag somewhere in the next 5-10 years--I just have to have my wife either draw another good tag or buy one for her first! She lucked out and pulled an LE tag on her 2nd try and ended up with a nice bull, but then my bull was a little bigger...so she say's it's her turn next!

I didn't think through how it would double my hunting costs, back when I got her starting to hunt when we first met! -O,-


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