# Questionable CWMU practices



## Bucksnort (Nov 15, 2007)

I wanted to hear your thoughts about an experience a friend of mine had while hunting a very well known, large CWMU in Northern Utah for bull elk. He hunted with a guide for several days taking the guides advice on where to hunt. He felt like he was being oversold on some of the smaller bulls he was seeing. Being encouraged to take some non-typicals like 6x2's. "The guides were saying "you wont find a more unique bull than that one".

Ultimately they encountered a really nice bull and the guide muttered "he is not supposed to be in this area". My friend was highly discouraged from shooting the bull. They saw the same bull again a few days later. He was told if he shot the bull the guide would lose his job.

My friend did not shoot that bull because he had compassion for the guide and did not shoot it. However it is pretty obvious he was being directed away from certain bulls and areas. Is this common? Is there any recourse? Should this be reported to the DWR?


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

I think I would talk to someone about it! How about the people in charge of the hunt? Sounds like he didn't pay enough for that particular bull? A bunch of B.S.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Was your friend hunting on a public draw tag, or did he or someone else purchase the hunt?


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

by all means report it and have him post full details as to what when where and how he was discriminated. the whole purpose of the cwmu program is to give the regular hunter the same chance at that the high paying cliental have. if not than there needs to be a formal complaint made to the dwr. I have been on some cwmu that are operated the way the program was designed and some that were questionable. the simple fact is that while they own the property they do not own the wildlife if your friend wanted this animal than he should have been given the chanch to harvest him period, so please for the sake of those who may want to this ranch in the future turn them in maybe if they lose there cwmu status they will learn to follow the rules.


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## mjensen1313 (Jul 29, 2015)

Sounds pretty shady to me! Just because he didn't "pay enough" to harvest that particular bull, gimme a break. He had the tag!

I would have shot it.


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## Bucksnort (Nov 15, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Was your friend hunting on a public draw tag, or did he or someone else purchase the hunt?


It was a public draw tag


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Did your friend harvest an elk?


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

I know where this happened and this is the 4th story, with the exact same story in 2 years. 2 antelope hunters and another elk Hunter that i personally know. By all means report this bs!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So, in the 4 cases, did your friends harvest elk and pronghorns on their hunts?


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

No, only 1 antelope was harvested after it was chased 2 miles in a vehicle and the person shot it from the top of The vehicles roof while standing on top of it. That person was also told not to harvest specific animals. This hunter was given a tag as a token of appreciation for a great year of sales. Not a public hunter like the other 3. Same bs happened though. I guess since the buyer wasnt there he was treated like a public hunter.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

If the original post is correct then he should file a complaint with the UDWR and submit his statement/show up at the CWMU Advisory Committee hearing to deal with the complaint. (That is if the UDWR can't resolve the issue before the hearing)

The only way to clean up the program is to submit valid complaints. What is described above is not what the CWMU program is about. Your friend should have been able to shoot a spike or the largest bull they saw. The guide can not tell the hunter what he can or can not shoot. (Only Pauns mgt deer tags are restricted)

Encourage him to contact the Region office and submit a complaint.


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

I ll tell ya a little story about a cwmu that was sanctioned and placed on probation due to problem I ran into a few years back I wont mention the unit as they already payed there pittance but here is the story: after drawing this permit I made contact with the operator and since it was a large section of property I decided that there little tour did me absolutely no good so I told them I wanted to be guided this all went well I was even given the name and phone # of this person who I tried to make contact with finally two days before the hunt we chatted and I told him that my son and I would drive to the properties from home each morning and would meet him at the ranch entrance first day saw a group of elk with a bull I was willing to go after and was talked out of it because according to him we could do a lot better and it would be a tough approach so following the old phrase don't guide the guide I didn't say to much other than it look like there was a trail that would lead us right into the animals his quite I been guiding here for years and there aint no trail, that after noon much to his dismay we found a road that led to a quarter mile of elk but by the time we got there the elk had made a exit at which point the guide said **** they must have put the road in this summer and this was his first trip on the ranch this season. there were a few other things happen but the kicker was the third after noon we got into a bunch of elk and there were talking up a storm cows calf and bulls were all chatten away well we cow called afew times and had the whole bunch coming into to us they were so close we could see a few of the lead animals and my son and the quide could see the bull but I had a bad angle when all of a sudden the guide let out a alarm bark on his cow call it went from elk central to crickets in seconds both the boy and I gave the guide looks that would have melted steel and he just shrugged a few minutes later the bull s started to bugle and my son said well ole timer lets take the fight to the dog and we got up and off we went and luckily cut the herd of and I took an fine bull out of the herd. after a bit of thinking after I got home I came to the conclusion that while I may have been saddled by a incompetent guide it was still the managers problem as he was hiring this man out and should have known his abilities better so a filled a formal complaint which had to be ansuered after a investigation was conducted. to me the system worked as they were held accountable even if it was a years probation and firing this said guide so by all means file a complaint and let them answer the complaint


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

I believe there is a way to fill out a report with the CWMU program or DWR. Sounds like his hunt played out in a way that goes against the stated intent of the program. I'm not going to pretend I'm surprised by this behavior in the least.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I believe it would be helpful to post the name of the CWMU's where the problems occur. With the application period opening shortly, it might help fellow sportsman's in their decision to apply or not apply for said CWMU.

I echo what has been said, things like this should not happen. I would encourage people, who feel like they have been treated wrongly, to report such incidents.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Maybe I am an **s**l*, but I would have shot that there bull. I spend my points, and a decade +?? I am gonna shoot the elk, and let them try and do something about it. Turn me in to the DWR? Ha, and get your CWMU shut down. 

That is just me. But I also won't be wasting my points on a CWMU for this very reason. If you want to, great... But do some research beforehand. I know many guides and operators... they don't admit it but I see pictures year in and year out of the "state hunters" game and the "_____ corporation" animals taken. The state are never as impressive. Nice 150" bucks, maybe 300-310" elk... but not the 180+ and 320+ that they somehow contently find for the paid hunters. I expect variation... but the best state animals seem to be just below the smallest paid animals.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

well I'd rather read about these stories on the internet instead of seeing a complaint filed or the CWMU actually being named. That way people can continue putting in for these areas and have negative experiences and keep up the cycle so we have more threads like these each year. :-o ;-)


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

utahgolf said:


> well I'd rather read about these stories on the internet instead of seeing a complaint filed or the CWMU actually being named. That way people can continue putting in for these areas and have negative experiences and keep up the cycle so we have more threads like these each year. :-o ;-)


The OP maybe was avoiding being "That guy" that has people jump down his throat for slander... Which I am ok with, because that does happen here.

However, the guy should absolutely file a complaint. That is the way this is handled.

And just to repeat, the bull should have been shot!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So to get this straight - 
A guy draws a CWMU tag. The tag comes with a guided hunt, on private lands. The hunter harvests a bull elk/buck antelope/buck deer -
But files a complaint because he wanted to shoot a bigger one, but the guide wouldn't let him? Does that sum it up?


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## Bucksnort (Nov 15, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> So to get this straight -
> A guy draws a CWMU tag. The tag comes with a guided hunt, on private lands. The hunter harvests a bull elk/buck antelope/buck deer -
> But files a complaint because he wanted to shoot a bigger one, but the guide wouldn't let him? Does that sum it up?


Yes, that pretty much sums it up. He did kill a bull but much smaller than the one the guide asked him not to shoot. Even after he was told in pre hunt meetings that he could shoot any bull he sees.

I did not post the name of the CWMU because it is my friends experience. If it had been my hunt, I would have posted the name of the CWMU.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Don't hesitate to report any misgivings with a CWMU. They are afforded the ability to make a LOT of money because of the program. Selling 20 bull tags for 6-7k each would be a lot harder to do if they had to play by the conventional rules and seasons.-----SS


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

GaryFish said:


> So to get this straight -
> A guy draws a CWMU tag. The tag comes with a guided hunt, on private lands. The hunter harvests a bull elk/buck antelope/buck deer -
> But files a complaint because he wanted to shoot a bigger one, but the guide wouldn't let him? Does that sum it up?


Sounds like the meat of it to me. The successful hunt isn't the problem. However, the landowner/guide is required as part of participation in the program to provide a similar opportunity as far as where/what animals can be hunted on the property as I understand it.

If the hired help/guide really was instructed to direct him away from the bigger bulls, that sounds like a violation of the tenets of the program. The safeguards and rules of the CWMU program are in place to prevent this type of behavior from what I understand.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

The cwmu in question(i assume) sells elk tags for $12,500


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

I say your friend post the name of the cwmu to keep hunters alike from experiencing the same crappy hunt. And to let the cwmu operators that this kind of crap won't just be brushed under the rug. All he is doing by keeping it a secret is enabling them to keep pulling this crap. And let other operators think they can do the same


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

And no one has mentioned the poor saps that get guided on public property for small animals with a CWMU tag. Or the CWMU operators that have their clients poach off of other peoples private property.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

I think the CMWU tags should be one public to one private. If you look at the discrepancy it is outstanding on some units. 

Plus 10,000 for a mule deer hunt not named the Arizona Strip or Henry Mountains is ludacris. 

15,000 for an elk hunt is borderline high fence territory. 

If P&Y and B&C eliminated private land hunts from the trophy books, I wonder how much those hunt prices would drop.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Lonetree said:


> And no one has mentioned the poor saps that get guided on public property for small animals with a CWMU tag. Or the CWMU operators that have their clients poach off of other peoples private property.


Poor saps my butt. A CWMU is still a hunt unit and it is the responsibility of the hunter to know unit boundaries. I have limited experience with CWMU's but I can guarantee I would know if I was off the property.

Sometimes I think people get the wrong ideas about what a CWMU is. It's a public tag. The HUNTER is responsible to find and pursue on their own. A 'guide' is not part of the deal. You get 5 days on a really small unit that you are not guaranteed to be able to scout. Sure, they can offer some killer opportunity but people need to realize what they are signing up for.

Then again, that would require personal responsibility. Like them or hate them......CWMU's save our bacon in the LE draw pools. -------SS


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

So the hunter was told in pre-hunt meetings he could shoot any bull, then passed when the guide said he would lose his job if he shot this bull? 

I feel like we are missing some details here. 

If not, super poor form by the guide and bad decision by your friend.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

hazmat said:


> I say your friend post the name of the cwmu to keep hunters alike from experiencing the same crappy hunt. And to let the cwmu operators that this kind of crap won't just be brushed under the rug. All he is doing by keeping it a secret is enabling them to keep pulling this crap. And let other operators think they can do the same


Ya that again


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Being a CWMU operator here a couple tid bits, public hunters should be afforded every opportunity that voucher hunters have. Specifically time and area to hunt. If a CWMU is pulling garbage like that I'd file a complaint and get it handled.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I think the CMWU tags should be one public to one private. If you look at the discrepancy it is outstanding on some units.
> 
> Plus 10,000 for a mule deer hunt not named the Arizona Strip or Henry Mountains is ludacris.
> 
> ...


Interesting view on the one-to-one split. I think a lot of land owners would pull their land out of the CWMU operation if that was the split.

I have drawn three CWMU tags in my life, and have had wonderful experiences on all three hunts - but I did research prior to applying for each one.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I've only hunted antlerless on a CWMU. I don't ever anticipate hunting antlered game on a CWMU, although I will never say never. I still disagree with a 1:1 split. That wouldn't work. Yes, the CWMU operators get a benefit from this program, but 1:1 would make it so it's not worth it for them. And despite what some grumblers claim, this program does have a great benefit to the public overall as well. 

If CWMU's are doing this stuff, file the complaint. Although I think public shaming for this can be good, it's not good enough. Publish their names so people can know.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Springville Shooter said:


> Poor saps my butt. A CWMU is still a hunt unit and it is the responsibility of the hunter to know unit boundaries. I have limited experience with CWMU's but I can guarantee I would know if I was off the property.
> 
> Sometimes I think people get the wrong ideas about what a CWMU is. It's a public tag. The HUNTER is responsible to find and pursue on their own. A 'guide' is not part of the deal. You get 5 days on a really small unit that you are not guaranteed to be able to scout. Sure, they can offer some killer opportunity but people need to realize what they are signing up for.
> 
> Then again, that would require personal responsibility. Like them or hate them......CWMU's save our bacon in the LE draw pools. -------SS


So the California hunters(with their Utah guide) that I have on my trail cams should be the ones responsible for hunting FS property and private property that is not part of their CWMU?

This is Cecil the lion territory.........

It has nothing to do with liking or hating CWMUs as a whole, but rather the conditions they provide for corrupt hunting activity, which is wide spread.

I agree, people should know what they are signing up for. But what is being offered(by the rules) and what is actually being received when sold are two very different things.

I grew up hunting lots of private property with paid access all over Northern Utah prior to the PHU days. The culture and the people have not changed decades later. Some of them are upstanding and follow the rules, while others don't. When you have guys paying $10K for a tag there is pressure there for certain results, which is what drives all the problems we hear about with CWMUs. I know people on all sides of this equation, the guides, the hunters, the operators, the land owners. Some of the biggest problems arise with the operators, and how they run things.

I will echo what has been said about reporting violations, by all means report them. Or.....if you are in a situation to hold their feet to the flames with better results that reporting it to the DWR, hold 'em to the flames.

I'm just bringing up other parts of the equation that directly affect why public hunters tend to get the short end of the stick WRT public CMWU tags. These things are very relevant to how things play out for public hunters, all other justifications aside......


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## legacy (Sep 30, 2007)

Honestly I like the CWMU program. I believe it allows opportunities for hunters that otherwise wouldn't be available. With that being said, I feel like there are definitely some changes to be made. I've hunted several CWMU's and have had some terrible experiences, and some okay ones. I think you really need to do your research before applying. I have filed a complaint on a antelope unit and ultimately the unit lost their tags. The DWR took the complaint very seriously. So I would encourage you to file a complaint. 
The problem I have seen in the last few years, is that when you call an operator and ask about the hunting conditions, they almost always tell you that the situation is bad and to not apply. This is on units that I know that they are killing very nice animals on as well. I have heard that the operators try to stear people away from applying for their unit so they are more likely to have a "buddy" draw. Not sure how wide spread this actually is, but I know for a fact that this is the case on a couple of units.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Question. If f u have a CWMU tag.And your guide tells you to hold off for something larger.. You eat your tag or shoot an inferior animal. Then a High Roller client comes in after, harvest the trophy you were told hold off on..Kinda makes ya feel that deeper pockets get the cream of the crop sometimes.. One other thing of interest to me. Lets hope and pray that Doyle Moss And his QUOTE un QUOTE CLIENT. DRAW A BIG FAT O. On the Buck him and his brush beaters are trying to run outa Camp Williams to his CLIENT.. Hey Man heres to hoping you eat your Sportsman Tag..It's total CRAP!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

legacy said:


> Honestly I like the CWMU program. I believe it allows opportunities for hunters that otherwise wouldn't be available. With that being said, I feel like there are definitely some changes to be made. I've hunted several CWMU's and have had some terrible experiences, and some okay ones. I think you really need to do your research before applying. I have filed a complaint on a antelope unit and ultimately the unit lost their tags. The DWR took the complaint very seriously. So I would encourage you to file a complaint.
> The problem I have seen in the last few years, is that when you call an operator and ask about the hunting conditions, they almost always tell you that the situation is bad and to not apply. This is on units that I know that they are killing very nice animals on as well. I have heard that the operators try to stear people away from applying for their unit so they are more likely to have a "buddy" draw. Not sure how wide spread this actually is, but I know for a fact that this is the case on a couple of units.


You could easily quantify this, and it would be quantified this way in a true market system. Look at the animals being taken, there is almost perfect correlation between B&C score, P&Y score and the money paid for the hunt. Arguments of whether it should be this way or not aside, what this demonstrates clearly is that on what is probably most CWMUs, the public hunters are getting stiffed because they offer the least economic incentive to the land owners and/or operators.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Bucksnort said:


> Ultimately they encountered a really nice bull and the guide muttered "he is not supposed to be in this area". My friend was highly discouraged from shooting the bull. They saw the same bull again a few days later. He was told if he shot the bull the guide would lose his job.


That's a tough situation, I would have shot the bull - if the guide would have lost his job over that, he's obviously working for the wrong type of people.

Sorry to hear about your buddy's experience. I don't foresee myself hunting CWMU's anytime soon.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

A thought on the 1:1 public to private ratio comments. I don't know if going 1:1 would help the situation or not, but on CWMUs that are comprised of some public property, there needs to be more accommodations to public hunters. The higher the portion of public lands then the higher the proportion of public tags. AND if any of those public lands have ever been accessible under RS2477 claims, OR have been accessible to the public to hunt at all, those public lands should be excluded from CWMU operations IF the public is not being compensated for their loss of public hunting acreage.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> Like them or hate them......CWMU's save our bacon in the LE draw pools. -------SS


Take back 200 tags from the expo and put them back into the LE draw and don't forget that you can take back all the current CWMU tags and put those back into the LE draw as well. I have not ran any numbers but some math would need to be done before we can state that the CWMU saves our bacon.

Let's imagine a world without the expo or the CWMU program (like all the surrounding states have). What would wildlife look like in the state. I figure economics wins and if landowners have animals on their property, they would want to make some money and the price to trespass would be quite lower as the pool of paying clients would be whoever draws. This is what every other state does. I dont like the Utah system but it's a dead horse. I believe in the North American model of wildlife conservation and I detest the Utah expo and CWMU system.

Thank god game birds don't have antlers


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Last year I sent a few emails and left a couple vms for a few cwmu's with interest in buying a voucher (not that I had 10k or even 5k to spend) but was curious on the process. Not one returned call or email returned. What does that tell you?


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Airborne said:


> Take back 200 tags from the expo and put them back into the LE draw and don't forget that you can take back all the current CWMU tags and put those back into the LE draw as well. I have not ran any numbers but some math would need to be done before we can state that the CWMU saves our bacon.
> 
> Let's imagine a world without the expo or the CWMU program (like all the surrounding states have). What would wildlife look like in the state. I figure economics wins and if landowners have animals on their property, they would want to make some money and the price to trespass would be quite lower as the pool of paying clients would be whoever draws. This is what every other state does. I dont like the Utah system but it's a dead horse. I believe in the North American model of wildlife conservation and I detest the Utah expo and CWMU system.
> 
> Thank god game birds don't have antlers


There will be swan tags and pheasant stamps at the expo soon enough.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Yeah, there is no competition, divisions, or pizzing matches in waterfowl hunting.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

waspocrew said:


> That's a tough situation, I would have shot the bull - if the guide would have lost his job over that, he's obviously working for the wrong type of people.
> 
> Sorry to hear about your buddy's experience. I don't foresee myself hunting CWMU's anytime soon.


Ditto! Could a guide ethically be terminated for doing his job? Seems like it could be the cause of a lawsuit against said CWMU for not having legitimate grounds to terminate an employee. Moreover, the number of years it takes to draw this assumed un-named CWMU, the 5-year wait following, and the growing point creep.... Unless your lucky, could be the last time you hunt trophy elk for 20+ years which puts some out of their hunting years.

I would have told him I'd help him with his resume' and to get his knife ready!


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## Bucksnort (Nov 15, 2007)

BigT said:


> Ditto! Could a guide ethically be terminated for doing his job? Seems like it could be the cause of a lawsuit against said CWMU for not having legitimate grounds to terminate an employee. Moreover, the number of years it takes to draw this assumed un-named CWMU, the 5-year wait following, and the growing point creep.... Unless your lucky, could be the last time you hunt trophy elk for 20+ years which puts some out of their hunting years.
> 
> I would have told him I'd help him with his resume' and to get his knife ready!


Lol,me too


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