# 2022 Big Game Recommendations are out



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Comment to the Central RAC is due in two days. Make sure you get your feedback in.

RAC, Board meeting agendas, materials & minutes

A few controversial proposals on the table:

1. Creating a draw for the general season elk permits for a one-year trial period
2. Increasing the proportion of tags going to maximum point holders from 50% to 60%


----------



## Tl23life21 (Sep 29, 2015)

Clarq said:


> Comment to the Central RAC is due in two days. Make sure you get your feedback in.
> 
> RAC, Board meeting agendas, materials & minutes
> 
> ...


NO I would rather be waiting in line and still get my elk tAG NOT WAIT TO DRAW AN OPEN BULL ELK TAG..


----------



## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Utah doesn't currently limit the non-resident OTC bull elk tags, correct? Idaho recently reduced the number of non-resident tags and increased the non-resident fee proportionately to keep the revenue equal. Why not go this route? No need for a draw.


----------



## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

I think the non res fee's are increasing, or already did. But I do think limiting the number of non res permits from the pool should be done anyway.

I really don't want them to remove the last OTC permit opportunity and move it to a draw. Even with a 90% successful draw odds, it would still decrease my chances of getting an elk permit. IMO, this isn't a trial to see what's better, it's a way to move to a draw permanently. Citing hunter frustration as one of the primary reasons to 'trial' a draw is absurd. Yes the experience is bad and frustrating, but some vertical and mostly horizontal scaling of their infrastructure would resolve that and wouldn't require taking away the OTC opportunity.


----------



## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Yeah, I mean I was certainly frustrated with the process, but I'd rather go through it than have to rely on the draw to get an elk tag. They should prioritize resident opportunity like virtually every other major elk state has done.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The one thing that a draw for a general season elk tag would show is just how much interest is in the hunt. 

If there are only a few thousand more wanting the tag than is what is available they just may leave it first come first served, but if there are a lot of hunters interested in the tag then it might be best to go with a draw. Without it you run the risk of alienating hunters who don't have the time to sit on a computer to come up with a tag to the point that they may just give it up and it would work the other way also. 

I saw that happen a number of years ago on the deer draw. Hunters who couldn't just go buy their tags and then had to put in for the draw that now takes a number of years to draw just gave up hunting. 

But when you only have a certain amount of tags with more hunters that want those tags you need to look at ways that would equal out the opportunity.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

With the out of control population growth Utah is currently experiencing, I’m not sure a draw isn’t the answer. I’m not exactly for it either. But how do you try and make the playing field even when somebody may not be able to buy a tag for several years running? At least a draw would get them a bonus or preference point. I don’t know what the answer is. But protecting the resources have to take priority over hunter numbers in my opinion.


----------



## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

The intent may be to better understand demand, but I think that the data set you'll get will be wrong. You'll have those that normally buy a tag not apply, and those that don't buy one normally see the opportunity during the application process and say 'what the heck'. There are better ways to understand 'demand' without reducing opportunity based on technology and traffic during the sale period and after.

What this does is generate another $300k+ for the division with the $10 application fee on top of the permit fee if drawn. Gives them a reason to keep it draw by saying 'Look, we had 50k applicants for ~30k tags' this is fair for everyone.

If they want to limit the demand, just raise the permit fee $50 for residents and call it. That'll weed out a lot of the "demand" for those that don't want to pay $100 for something they aren't serious about. They will still sell out, and the division makes more money.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

If they are going to make the general elk permits a draw, they need to do away the LE concept the way it currently stands. Very few people in their right mind will apply for a draw permit in an already overhunted general elk unit.


----------



## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

I see the point and agree we my be headed for a permanent draw. But why not cap non-resident tag sales first and then see what happens? Idaho caps their units at 10-15% non-residents. Arizona has a 10% cap. What would that do to demand here? Does Utah publish the number of resident/non-resident tags sold? Would be interesting to know.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I assume that they will accrue preference points rather than bonus points for general tags. Otherwise they are compounding problems not solving any.

As for a draw in general I'm not sure if a lot of demand isn't driven by the perceived shortage of tags. Don't forget that last year there was the proposal to have unlimited general elk tags. It didn't seem like many hunters supported that proposal. But the biologists didn't seem too bothered by it.

I can't believe the non resident tags have much effect on demand. When they raised tag fees, what 2 years ago? The general consensus was they had priced out the non resident general elk hunter because there was better opportunity for success in surrounding states.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

High Desert Elk said:


> If they are going to make the general elk permits a draw, they need to do away the the LE concept the way it currently stands. Very few people in their right mind will apply for a draw permit in an already overhunted general elk unit.


You really believe that prediction? Go look at the LE muzzy deer draw odds for general units and get back to us on that one 🙄

this is utah. If there’s a tag available in a drawing, people will apply for it. Doesn’t matter how ‘bad’ that tag or hunt might be.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

General elk into a draw. What an abomination. This is the beginning of the end of people being able to hunt most years in Utah if they want to do that. Mark that in stone right here. 

What a friggin joke.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It has come down to the fact that if you want to hunt in Utah every year be it deer, elk, or whatever that you need to adjust your hunting plans. Even with the OTC elk tags with caps do not allow a person to hunt every year if they don't have the time to sit on a computer and wait through the process. 

Even where I am at in Colorado all the deer tags are draw, but we do have unlimited OTC elk tags if hunting elk is your passion other than hunting deer. I actually prefer hunting deer but will use a elk tag to fill the freezer if I can find a 4 pt or better during my hunt for the rest of the week.

That's the sad thing about the increase in population and with the DWR wanting to recruit more and more hunters with a limited amount of tags being offered. 

But then anyone can pick up a bow and head out on the general archery elk hunt with a tag in hand.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

This looks like it was slopped together last minute and thrown to the public. I’m a very strong NO all around and even more so without anymore details. Will there be a set quota on multi tags in addition to rifle tags? Is there a split between muzzy, rifle and multi tags quota? Or is it just 15k total? Multiple choices to apply for? Unlimited quota archery tags still? Preference points?

this will turn into a giant fluster cuck. And just think, a year ago they were trying to give us more tags, more open units to hunt and guys really screamed over that deal. They swung hard the other way this year. Careful what you wish for…


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> It has come down to the fact that if you want to hunt in Utah every year be it deer, elk, or whatever that you need to adjust your hunting plans. Even with the OTC elk tags with caps do not allow a person to hunt every year if they don't have the time to sit on a computer and wait through the process.
> 
> Even where I am at in Colorado all the deer tags are draw, but we do have unlimited OTC elk tags if hunting elk is your passion other than hunting deer. I actually prefer hunting deer but will use a elk tag to fill the freezer if I can find a 4 pt or better during my hunt for the rest of the week.
> 
> ...


If hunting general elk in utah is a priority for you, you could get a tag EVERY year. You just had to take a little time off work, plan ahead or make arrangements for someone else to get your permit for you. You make it sound like it was impossible to get a general elk tag up to this point. That couldn’t be further from the truth.


----------



## Ray (May 10, 2018)

as long as they keep archery unlimited, you can still hunt every year


----------



## BMCBryce (Sep 6, 2012)

This is a very real concern and I hope as many of us that have clicked on this thread would be willing to reach out to those that need to hear our voices on the matter. 
Despite the commonly used phrase that “hunters are decreasing in number” our number has steadily increased for several years. As Utah’s human population continues to grow, so too does the number of hunters. As we are all aware, our opportunities at deer have decreased as habitat depletion, weather and a few other factors have impacted our deer herds. However, one thing is certain, elk numbers continue to grow and the elk herds thrive. They are a more hardy species. They can endure horrible winters, scorching droughts, adapt to vastly different habitats and are capable of finding food in all of these conditions. Thus are more likely to thrive in the conditions we have seen for the past 20 years. As elk are managed for different age classes on different LE units, the general season is managed for opportunity. I strongly believe it needs to be kept that way. To put our last remaining OTC hunt into a draw would be a mistake. Most are aware of the percentages, low success rates and how difficult it is to kill a bull elk on a general tag. Selling more tags will not automatically increase that low percentage. It will remain low. The opportunity at a GS bull elk is what I feel should not be tampered with.
If I am being honest, we need to get rid of the multi-season permit and go back to what it has always been. You select your hunt season/weapon and then you select bull or spike. Stick with that. It’ll focus hunters on specific hunts and not allow them to cross over hunt to hunt. I am one that has been lucky enough to take advantage of the multi-season tag. However, I feel like it has come with a price. It was put in place too late in the game How can we go from selling multi-season tags to putting the GS elk hunt into a draw. It’s about opportunities, but not really now? 
No thanks!!!
Keep the Utah General Season just that - General Season, over the counter. If it’s about money needed for this that or the other, sell more tags or raise the price by $10. I am so tired of seeing opportunities slip away or in this case - taken away. We already got completely hosed by the Wildlife Board last year when they pulled the rug out from under us with the GS elk debacle. Man… that one was frustrating! Let’s have non-residents take the hit. I’m very much aware that animals do not differentiate between our arbitrary boarders and boundaries, but our wildlife is managed on a state level and should therefore be hunted as such. Out of staters tags can be capped. 

By the way… can anyone explain how we go from almost having unlimited GS elk tags to one year later it becoming a draw?


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Ray said:


> as long as they keep archery unlimited, you can still hunt every year


I’m betting that deal is off the table if this whole system changes. Archery deer was state wide at one point, then they changed the entire system and it died with it.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

BMCBryce said:


> By the way… can anyone explain how we go from almost having unlimited GS elk tags to one year later it becoming a draw?


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Share your feedback on the RAC proposals


The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is proposing changes to several rules, and is requesting the public's feedback.




wildlife.utah.gov





There is the link to give online feedback. Keep in mind that these comments are public record, and you should act accordingly. If you want to see my comment on this issue, it is below: 


_I could not disagree any more than I do with putting the general season elk permits into a draw system. This is the one single over the counter big game hunting opportunity that remains in this state, and now the DWR wants to take it away because their system is insufficient and previous management decisions have put an extra strain on the permit sale system.

If the system is overloaded with people wanting permits, that is a good thing. The problem is not the demand. The problem is the system itself. If you want to reduce the strain, then you fix the system where there is the bottle-neck, not some other symptom of the actual problem. It would be a very plausible coding change to not allow anyone to login to their account on more than one device at one time. I've talked to software coders about this very thing, and they say this is very possible. There are some VERY simple fixes to the poor system the DWR uses to sell permits that would alleviate the strain on the system without having to remove the one final over the counter big game hunting opportunity we have left in this state.

Another problem I have with the proposal is that the DWR acknowledges that going to the multi-season hunt has been a contributing factor in the demand for these licenses. Another easy fix is to simply remove that option and go back to people picking their weapon of choice. If archery hunters that already have the benefit of unlimited permits switching over to multi-season permits has caused a strain on the system as was stated in the presentation, a very easy fix to that strain would be to eliminate multi-season permits. I know they are popular among a segment of hunters, but we can't continue to cater a small segment of hunters in Utah in all management decisions. That seems to be how this always works, leaving the masses holding the bag without a tag in their hand on basically every other type of hunt. Please do not take away this last remaining over the counter opportunity to hunt in Utah. 

This is being presented as a trial period while they analyze data and work with the elk working group to come up with a permanent solution. Why not wait on any permanent changes until that is already done? If this "trial period" is adopted, there is no way it will ever go back to how it was. There is simply no way the Division is going to recommend giving up the application revenue they receive from this "trial period" of general season over the counter permits going into the draw.

Again, I oppose this as strongly as any proposal I have ever heard from the Division. Making general season elk permits into draw permits would be an abomination to the heritage of hunting in our state, which there is very little of that left for us. _


----------



## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

MooseMeat said:


> I’m betting that deal is off the table if this whole system changes. Archery deer was state wide at one point, then they changed the entire system and it died with it.


Yeah it would be a matter of time.


----------



## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

BMCBryce said:


> By the way… can anyone explain how we go from almost having unlimited GS elk tags to one year later it becoming a draw?


Great question. This makes no sense. I wrote my comments to them for whatever good it does.

Thank you for making us all aware, Clarq.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Lol holy chit Utah is such a waste now. Johnnycake, you got room for one (well two) more up there? I'm starting to think I have what it takes to become an old sourdough.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

BMCBryce said:


> By the way… can anyone explain how we go from almost having unlimited GS elk tags to one year later it becoming a draw?


And how long ago are you looking for when Utah had almost unlimited GS elk tags? 

I am not sure on just how long that they have had the cap of 15,000 for spike and any bull but it has been a while. 

As for non residents, why would a non resident purchase a Utah elk tag other than one of the any bull units when they can go to Idaho or Colorado and purchase a tag over the counter that allows them to hunt bull elk, granted a lot of the units in Colorado are limited to 4pt or better.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> And how long ago are you looking for when Utah had almost unlimited GS elk tags?
> 
> I am not sure on just how long that they have had the cap of 15,000 for spike and any bull but it has been a while.
> 
> As for non residents, why would a non resident purchase a Utah elk tag other than one of the any bull units when they can go to Idaho or Colorado and purchase a tag over the counter that allows them to hunt bull elk, granted a lot of the units in Colorado are limited to 4pt or better.


The proposal for unlimited tags was proposed last year. There is a thread on here with all the comments. Should I mention the search function? LOL

But yea, an out of state resident would not be smart to buy a general tag in Utah.


----------



## BMCBryce (Sep 6, 2012)

Critter said:


> And how long ago are you looking for when Utah had almost unlimited GS elk tags?


It was one of the division’s proposals last year. They attempted to take the three worst LE units (or at least portions of them) and making them General Seaon any bull units. With that “new” and increased any bull area they felt better about increasing tags - even taking them to an unlimited availability. When suddenly the board took a hard left and screwed us all by bringing their own agenda into the equation and settling on something that had NOT even been discussed among the RAC’s, the public or anyone else. Go watch that Board meeting. It’ll really make you mad. 

Back to this new proposal… I am very much against the idea of removing opportunity. It’s a shame. It’s a waste. And perhaps the most disappointing part of it all, looks like a money grab. As it’s been pointed out above, the $10 non-refundable application fee for thousands of hunters stands to bring in a entirely new source of revenue. I hate that it seems to always come back to money. By the way… the current wildlife board has far too much power and have very clearly demonstrated that they are willing to do what is in their own best interest, and not that of OUR wildlife or even the average Sportsman. Absolutely Shameful. 
One more thing… Vanilla’s thoughts and feelings on this topic are spot on! If you feel at all upset by the possibility of this happening, please take the time to do what he and others have done and send your thought to the appropriate channels.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

You poor, poor bastages. 

I just printed off two caribou permits and hopefully I'll get the fill them in a few days. I did have to "draw" my signature on them though


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

This one is really, really important folks. Please take a few minutes to go and say you "strongly disagree" with the proposal. The good part is all of these responses are public record, so they can't hide the disagreement if a whole crap ton of hunters tell them not to do it.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

You cheap out of state bastages should pony up for a general elk tag at $593. You even get a fishing license Small price to pay for a exceptional Utah experience. LOL.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> You poor, poor bastages.
> 
> I just printed off two caribou permits and hopefully I'll get the fill them in a few days. I did have to "draw" my signature on them though


Pffft. Well if I really wanted to I could go to the Benjamin Slough this Saturday and get peppered with #6 shot by 500 other hunters chasing pen raised ditch parrots. Where's your smugness now, jc?


----------



## Ray (May 10, 2018)

MooseMeat said:


> I’m betting that deal is off the table if this whole system changes. Archery deer was state wide at one point, then they changed the entire system and it died with it.


****, now that’s a valid point. I’ve never attended a meeting but this might push me to it


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Pffft. Well if I really wanted to I could go to the Benjamin Slough this Saturday and get peppered with #6 shot by 500 other hunters chasing pen raised ditch parrots. Where's your smugness now, jc?


If you’d have played your cards right, you could have caught a .30-06 corelokt (probably) Friday afternoon from some clown driving the roads hunting deer down there. You should have seen his face when I asked if his bullets were non toxic since he’s hunting in a wetland preserve 🤣


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Pffft. Well if I really wanted to I could go to the Benjamin Slough this Saturday and get peppered with #6 shot by 500 other hunters chasing pen raised ditch parrots. Where's your smugness now, jc?


I'll have to wipe my tears with the feathers from the 20 wild, native ptarmigan per day I can shoot up where I'm caribou hunting. Or maybe from one of the 30 (yes thirty) grouse per day.


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Hey look, it’s Deja Vu once again on the ole UWN! I think I’ll sit this one out, Vanilla and Moose get mean if ya disagree with them!


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

As the poet Coolio once said, if ya can’t stand the heat, get yo @$$ outta the kitchen, we on a mission!

All opinions are welcome here, even wrong ones.


----------



## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Elk - Cap Non-Res tags, increase fee, Wed opener,


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Unlimited OTC rhinoceros permits.


----------



## Bookcliffs07 (Aug 11, 2020)

I posted this several months ago about general elk going to a draw...

I predict that if this goes to a draw within less than 10 years

people will have to build several points to draw, and then they will feel entitled to a certain type of elk hunt since it took *X* number of points to draw
they will complain about how hard the hunt is and will say that elk aren't being managed correctly
the trophy oriented guys will push to get "general" elk tags set unit by unit with a specific quota for each general elk unit because they will feel like their favorite unit is overrun
after the tags go to unit by unit, they will demand tag cuts to make the hunt higher quality and higher success rates
the rifle and muzz hunters will make archery tags a draw too because it won't be fair that the bow guys get to hunt every single year and get first crack at the bulls and better rut season dates now with the 5 day extension
the ability to hunt elk on a regular basis will go away, even for folks wanting to hunt with a bow

They might as well just skip ahead and make all of any bull units 4.5-5 year old limited entry units. At least that way they would not have to deal with the cluster of having multiple point systems for elk like we do for deer. 

Submit your comments online and reach out to RAC and Board members through email, phone, etc. Protect the last OTC family hunting opportunity in Utah.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I haven't rifle hunted Utah since I was a kid. Definitely don't have a desire to wait out more than a year. But, I decided to give it try and bought an OTC tag out of state. Same with Bear. Next year I will also add at least an elk.

The fact that as a nonresident I have out of state opportunity that surpasses in state is an issue. Now, when I went to said state to deer hunt, I saw a gal in a hardware store snag a deer tag. Day before the hunt lol. If every state around us has better resident benefits, isn't the issue with our management not our draw? We happen to have the WORST habitat and population of all these inland western states? And the highest demand? Maybe that's possible...

I am opposed to going to a draw and FOR us doing more like the other states: Limit the non residents. Seems like the more logical option.

But they sure love those app fees.


Already was sure to electronically leave my feedback.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

So do those of you leaving your feedback electronically feel like your voice is actually going to be heard, or are you just doing it out of principle? I would feel like I was just talking to a brick wall.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Sending feedback may help us all feel better but I highly doubt it does much good. They already know what they plan to do. Hint-It will be whatever generates the most $. 
I sent an email I took a lot of time on to a district ranger recently. It concerned an old jeep road built by my in laws family in the 40’s. The USFS installed a shiny new closed sign on it this fall. I provided evidence to them from 70 years of photographs that the road had been in existence. I explained how the road made fence maintenance possible. I explained how the road did not cross riparian areas, streams or other sensitive sites. And I questioned why the trail was closed without any public input?The reply I got back was priceless. The ranger said somebody else made the decision and they were just following protocols!!! He may of well just sent- Screw you! We will do as we **** well please! 
I encourage folks to participate in the process and submit comments. But the cynic in me thinks we are peeing in the breeze.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I think they read, listen to comments made, but the decision has already been made on what they want to do. I'm sure they will do whatever $FW tells them to do.

I don't give a fat rats ass what happens anymore. After this years experience on the GS big game hunts, I'm hanging up the shooting sticks and hitting the water to fish.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

taxidermist said:


> I think they read, listen to comments made, but the decision has already been made on what they want to do. I'm sure they will do whatever $FW tells them to do.
> 
> I don't give a fat rats ass what happens anymore. After this years experience on the GSS big game hunts, I'm hanging up the shooting sticks and hitting the water to fish.


Fishing will still irritate ya. Try unloading a boat or loading one at Strawberry on a Saturday. Try ice fishing about anywhere and watch guys drill holes five feet away from ya when they have the entire reservoir to fish. People are the problem, not hunting or fishing. We are the dumbest **** animal on the planet!


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

If you scroll down on the link in the original post:





RAC, Board meeting agendas, materials & minutes


Action items on the agenda are voted on by the RACs and the Board. Wildlife Board meetings usually occur a few weeks after the Northern, Central, Northeastern, Southeastern and Southern RAC meetings.




wildlife.utah.gov




You can provide online feedback. They list the proposal memorandums and changes to admin rules, you check a box saying you've read what they are, and then you can select how much you agree or disagree with the proposal, and provide a comment.

Now if they acutally listen is another matter. I think it all boils down to money. They won't cut non resident tag numbers first, because one out of state tag is worth several resident tags.

EDIT:
After watching this video, it seems to me they've already made up their mind for this year. No quota on archery, which will push more people into archery. It seems the biggest problem is people "two boxing" online sales, and multiseason tags. I'd gladly give up multiseason tags to put those two extra tags back into the pool to avoid a draw.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Sooooo here we are.... General season Utah elk is a draw now.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

jewbacca said:


> I see the point and agree we my be headed for a permanent draw. But why not cap non-resident tag sales first and then see what happens? Idaho caps their units at 10-15% non-residents. Arizona has a 10% cap. What would that do to demand here? Does Utah publish the number of resident/non-resident tags sold? Would be interesting to know.


For starters, it will increase the cost of resident tag. They can't increase the non-resident tag enough with a 90% reduction in available permits to offset the revenue loss...


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> General elk into a draw. What an abomination. This is the beginning of the end of people being able to hunt most years in Utah if they want to do that. Mark that in stone right here.
> 
> What a friggin joke.


Tell me about it. It has been 20 years since I have drawn a rifle deer tag in my home state. It has now been 4 years since I have drawn an elk tag.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> Tell me about it. It has been 20 years since I have drawn a rifle deer tag in my home state. It has now been 4 years since I have drawn an elk tag.


I hope people are paying attention. This is what you have to look forward to if you keep demanding dumb changes to our system!


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> So do those of you leaving your feedback electronically feel like your voice is actually going to be heard, or are you just doing it out of principle? I would feel like I was just talking to a brick wall.


They may disregard it, but if 9 of every 10 comments is against the proposal, we will know that. It’s all public record. They can’t hide what they’ll do. They’ll have to openly admit they don’t care what the public thinks. So comment, or just complain on an online forum and wonder why things suck. Either way…


----------



## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

General elk draw = no go!!

60/40 tag split = meh. I am on the fence of this one. I have yet to be in the top point pool when I've drawn my LE Elk, CWMU Deer, and LE Antelope. So the tag splits of 50/50 have benefited me. 

Time to win the lottery, buy a ranch in Wyoming or Montana full of elk, deer, antelope, and birds! Or there is that place called Alaska . . .


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

On the point split on the draw it seams that I on the top side with max points + 1 or 2 before I can draw. 

I have never drawn a tag before max....But there are a lot who have. But really just how much would this change any results?

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> They may disregard it, but if 9 of every 10 comments is against the proposal, we will know that. It’s all public record. They can’t hide what they’ll do. They’ll have to openly admit they don’t care what the public thinks. So comment, or just complain on an online forum and wonder why things suck. Either way…


They won't HAVE to admit anything. They will say, "oh, you don't like it? Cool. Go eat a big bowl of wieners." The people with the power will always serve themselves. If it just so happens that something that they do benefits their underlings it was a mere coincidence.


----------



## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> So do those of you leaving your feedback electronically feel like your voice is actually going to be heard, or are you just doing it out of principle? I would feel like I was just talking to a brick wall.


Hope springs eternal, but nobody should expect democracy. The WB has often demonstrated that "majority rule" is not in play at all. I'm not suggesting that it necessarily should be; just saying that our representatives will represent and not necessarily for you, me or any majority that might be out there.


----------



## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

High Desert Elk said:


> For starters, it will increase the cost of resident tag. They can't increase the non-resident tag enough with a 90% reduction in available permits to offset the revenue loss...


Is there published data on how many non-resident tags are sold each year? We'd need to know that before knowing how much a cap would change anything.


----------



## Hedley Lamarr (May 14, 2018)

I still do not understand why Utah has a “Board” that determines the regulations. The regulations should be set by DWR and wildlife biologist without input from any outside people/businesses with an agenda. They are the ones that know location/population of animals and numbers that can be taken for future viability. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## utskidad (Apr 6, 2013)

Would like to see the hunt broken up in to one-week seasons like many western states do. Would far prefer one week in the woods with half the hunters than two weeks with all of them.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

jewbacca said:


> Yeah, I mean I was certainly frustrated with the process, but I'd rather go through it than have to rely on the draw to get an elk tag. They should prioritize resident opportunity like virtually every other major elk state has done.


Have you looked at the LE draw odds for non residents?

Like they already do prioritize resident oppurtunity.

As far as OTC oppurtunities for elk, I think that Utah open bull is the last option for a lot of people. 

Colorado, Idaho, and Montana are much better options for Non Residents to hunt


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

utskidad said:


> Would like to see the hunt broken up in to one-week seasons like many western states do. Would far prefer one week in the woods with half the hunters than two weeks with all of them.


It is split about 50/50 on that front if you include glory tags like Nevada and Arizona.

Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico. 

New Mexico has a bunch of 4-5 day seasons. Colorado does 1,2,3,4 with 1 and 4 being draw hunts.

Nevada and Arizona are states that elk tags are difficult to come by in most units. 

With Nevada being pretty much a OIL unless you hit the lotto.

Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana all one season.

Wyoming and Montana with a general tag you can hunt all over the state. 

Idaho makes you pick between A and B tags for a specific area with a specific weapon.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> General elk into a draw. What an abomination. This is the beginning of the end of people being able to hunt most years in Utah if they want to do that. Mark that in stone right here.
> 
> What a friggin joke.


Turning into Nevada. Where an elk tag is almost a once in a lifetime draw. 

There are many issues here. Including limited open bull areas, CMWU, Landowners, Winter ground, age limits, etc. 

It is not like the state doesn't suck money out of everything either. Everything is basically a draw.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> General elk into a draw. What an abomination. This is the beginning of the end of people being able to hunt most years in Utah if they want to do that. Mark that in stone right here.
> 
> What a friggin joke.





CPAjeff said:


> General elk draw = no go!!
> 
> 60/40 tag split = meh. I am on the fence of this one. I have yet to be in the top point pool when I've drawn my LE Elk, CWMU Deer, and LE Antelope. So the tag splits of 50/50 have benefited me.
> 
> Time to win the lottery, buy a ranch in Wyoming or Montana full of elk, deer, antelope, and birds! Or there is that place called Alaska . . .


Wyoming sucks this time of year, but other than Winter it is a great place to live. 

Many people however prefer Boise and Bozeman instead, but like I said the Winter here sucks. 

I have to mention wind as well. Lol


----------



## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Have you looked at the LE draw odds for non residents?
> 
> Like they already do prioritize resident oppurtunity.


Yeah... but we're talking OTC here. LE is a different animal.



> As far as OTC oppurtunities for elk, I think that Utah open bull is the last option for a lot of people.
> 
> Colorado, Idaho, and Montana are much better options for Non Residents to hunt


That's the reputation, but it would be nice to see numbers. For example, someone who lives in Boise could buy the Idaho A tag and hunt Utah OTC rifle without infringing on their Idaho dates at all. AFAIK Utah doesn't publish non-resident OTC tags. It's relevant to the discussion.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

I have a solution and it will probably not be well received.

One elk draws with unlimited general tags for residents in existing open bull units.

Include cow tags in this draw, to spread out the draw odds.

Add Cow points and Bull points together and first choice draws lose points.

Convert all current LE units to a 5 points or better regulation.

You still have defined units to put in for that will be capped at whatever the amount of tags produces a 20% success rate in the public units.

Which would have to be driven by biologists.

For CMWU's - They need to give 1 public tag for every private tag. 

Landowner tags - Can only go to family members.

Non Residents can receive up to 15% of the tags in a given unit.

Switch the seasons around and have you choose your weapon.

Archery - August 15 - September 30

Rifle - October 1 - October 31

Muzzy - Nov 1 - November 30

Example of an application

No.1 - Book Cliffs -Bull Muzzy- Unsuc

No.2 - Book Cliffs -Cow Rifle- Suc

No.3 - General Tag -Archery- Unsuc


I get a point and get a cow tag.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> I hope people are paying attention. This is what you have to look forward to if you keep demanding dumb changes to our system!


...and, there is no point system. It's completely random. Every application is assigned a randomly generated number and then placed back into the stack of all other applications in order of that number. Your application competes against all other applications and all other species. My elk application competes for a place holder near the top of the stack against your deer application. 

If there are 30,000 tags available statewide for elk, your random number needs to be one of those first 30,000 numbers generated in the elk pool. Then after that, each choice is looked at before moving on to the next application. This means if my application is looked at before yours, and my third choice is your first choice, I get it and you may not.

Yeah, people need to be very careful what they wish for. I've forgotten what it's even like to have a resident deer tag in my pocket...


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Full. Random. Draw.

Everybody puts up to 10 entries into the pot, $50/entry, get randomized, lined up sequentially, and keep each hunter's lowest two numbers. All species (moose to sage grouse), units, weapon type tags are put in one giant pool, randomized, stacked up and assigned a sequential number from 1 to whatever. Put list A next to List B. Limit folks to a max of two tags a year and you get them in the order drawn.

You don't want to hunt the blow gun only swan tag in the Lehi Home Deport Parking Lot unit that you drew? Tough nuts, that's your tag.


----------



## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

What bmcbryce said if it’s about money which we all know it is raise the tag fee 10 bucks and leave our hunting opportunities alone.


----------



## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

johnnycake said:


> Full. Random. Draw.
> 
> Everybody puts up to 10 entries into the pot, $50/entry, get randomized, lined up sequentially, and keep each hunter's lowest two numbers. All species (moose to sage grouse), units, weapon type tags are put in one giant pool, randomized, stacked up and assigned a sequential number from 1 to whatever. Put list A next to List B. Limit folks to a max of two tags a year and you get them in the order drawn.
> 
> You don't want to hunt the blow gun only swan tag in the Lehi Home Deport Parking Lot unit that you drew? Tough nuts, that's your tag.


I’m still 100% behind this!!


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Leave the tags out of the draw. I get they’re going more and more fast, but getting a tag is still do-able.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

RemingtonCountry said:


> I’m still 100% behind this!!


Behind full random? Let's talk after you haven't drawn in 20 years...


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

High Desert Elk said:


> Behind full random? Let's talk after you haven't drawn in 20 years...


You mean like how it is currently for thousands of folks with +20 points for LE and OIAL species?


----------



## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

It boils down to $$. Moving the general tag to a draw makes me want to limit my Utah hunting financial contribution to the archery tag and just buy OTC rifle tags in Idaho or Colorado.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> You mean like how it is currently for thousands of folks with +20 points for LE and OIAL species?


But at least you know you will pull the tag, eventually...


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

High Desert Elk said:


> But at least you know you will pull the tag, eventually...


Except you don't if you aren't in the first decade or so of the applicants under the system. That is, unless you can guarantee that you will outlive the other applicants. A then 12 year old hunter who in 2010 started applying for many of the LE elk/deer tags and basically all of the OIAL tags will die of old age before point creep guarantees them a tag.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

High Desert Elk said:


> But at least you know you will pull the tag, eventually...


Not on some of the OIAL tags!!!! I have a 2% chance of drawing a sheep tag with 23points. My wife’s moose odds are even worse.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

After dwelling on it, I don't think this is actually a proposal, nor temporary. In that respect, I predict an unprecedented rise in popularity of Archery tags, and Ruffed Grouse. Tastiest thing to hunt when you have no tag.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

cowboy said:


> Not on some of the OIAL tags!!!! I have a 2% chance of drawing a sheep tag with 23points. My wife’s moose odds are even worse.


Those odds are better than mine in NM for a sheep tag. Remember, you're competing with all the other applicants first for every other species, and then it's stacked up against all the applicants for the species you apply for. As a NR, I have better odds with the UT points I do have for the same species in NM I have no points for (and never will because there aren't any). This is why the NM applications increase by approximately 10% every year for the past 3 years. Nothing to lose if they sit out a year or two, they pick up where they left off. A new comer can jump in at any time and have the same chance as someone who has been applying for 25 years without drawing (sheep, ibex, and oryx are the big ones).

Back to a sheep tag, 180,000 applications for 3 tags first go round, and then you have to beat 5,000 sheep applications for 3 tags. If your app isn't one of the first 3 applications looked at, too bad, so sad. Those 180,000 applications include non-resident and outfitter pool as well.

It is statistically impossible to predict the outcome of a NM random draw.

But then, we're talking about UT and not NM, but it sounds like UT wants to head that way...


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Lone_Hunter said:


> After dwelling on it, I don't think this is actually a proposal, nor temporary. In that respect, I predict an unprecedented rise in popularity of Archery tags, and Ruffed Grouse. Tastiest thing to hunt when you have no tag.


That's exactly what happened in NM. It began without being able to draw a rifle tag, so everyone switched to stick flippers. Now it's really tough to draw an archery tag.


----------



## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

I watched the video to give feedback and have some real problems with the reasons\justifications for trying this for one year. Apart from the fact that one year would be a statistical outlier when comparing to trends from the last 30 years, there isn't any quantifiable reason that would justify this move from a herd or hunter management perspective.

The argument that demand is up to can't truly be quantified and feels like conjecture. Simply using how quickly permits sold out to justify demand isn't an accurate portrayal of the demand. The poor system architecture and performance created an artificial urgency that drove people to purchase the day of sale in 2020. When you couple that with the Online Only sales model from 2020 and it quickly becomes something you can't truly quantify regarding demand. The 2021 results were also driven by the panic of 2020. Like the toilet paper shortage from 2020, the perceived shortage creates urgency which leads to an actual shortage. It's not true demand.

They can quantify the popularity of the multi-season tag, but I've never seen any data showing what percentage of tags sold are multi-season vs season specific. So until they publish that data, it's hard to use that as justification to the general public. But "IF" that is a primary driver, I would be fine doing away with the multi-season tag in its current iteration. What if, instead of all 15k tags being available for any bull units being multi-season available, the OTC opportunity goes back to being weapon specific. If they want a draw, have an application and draw for a Multi-Season Voucher. If you draw, you are still required to purchase the permit, but at the time of purchase, the voucher would be redeemed for the multi-season tag. Make that draw for a voucher full random, no bonus\preference points.

Division still makes the extra money on the applications and multi-season tags. I can still get a tag but have a chance for a multi-season option if I'm lucky enough to draw a voucher.

And don't even get me started on the fact that Youth is no longer guaranteed a spike tag through this draw. That felt wrong to me.


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

justismi28 said:


> And don't even get me started on the fact that Youth is no longer guaranteed a spike tag through this draw. That felt wrong to me.


Youth haven't ever been guaranteed a spike tag. It's always been first come, first served for those until they sell out. The youth guarantee for any bull tags only started last year.

My prediction is that, if it does go to a draw, everyone who applies for a spike tag will get one. I could be wrong. To enhance opportunity for youth, I assume they would set aside a certain portion of the spike tags for youth like they do in the other draws.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

justismi28 said:


> They can quantify the popularity of the multi-season tag, but I've never seen any data showing what percentage of tags sold are multi-season vs season specific. So until they publish that data, it's hard to use that as justification to the general public. But "IF" that is a primary driver, I would be fine doing away with the multi-season tag in its current iteration. What if, instead of all 15k tags being available for any bull units being multi-season available, the OTC opportunity goes back to being weapon specific.


I do wonder how many multiseason tags they sell in terms of a percentage of the total number of tag sales. I have this impression they want to continue with multiseason tags, and will go to a draw before doing away with multiseason. Personally, I think i've gone multiseason ever since... 2019 if im not mistaken. I remember that because I filled my tag on the first freaking day of archery, and it was my first time hunting archery. (I got SUPER lucky) The other two tags that are intrinsic to a multiseason tag, went to waste for all intents and purposes. Last year, I ate the tag, and i'm pretty sure i'm about to eat another multi season tag.

Each year, one hunter, 3 tags. That's a multi-season tag in a nutshell. Multiply that by however many multi-tags are being sold, and look at the percentages. It might be telling. Personally, I would GLADLY do away with the multiseason tag then go to a draw. I honestly don't like hunting certain seasons (looking at you rifle!) , only reason I buy the tag at all is because i'm an addict, and i'll hunt a season i don't like, then not hunt at all. Going to a draw changes that equation dramatically. I'd rather hunt a single season every year guaranteed, then have no tag at all.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Lets tick everyone off and only have a single draw for elk. Do away with the draw for anterless and combine it into a elk draw. If you want to use a dozen points on a anterless tag then do it. Just one elk tag a year for each hunter unless they want to set something up to allow a couple of anterless tags due to private property or a area where they want the elk gone.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Lone_Hunter said:


> I do wonder how many multiseason tags they sell in terms of a percentage of the total number of tag sales. I have this impression they want to continue with multiseason tags, and will go to a draw before doing away with multiseason. Personally, I think i've gone multiseason ever since... 2019 if im not mistaken. I remember that because I filled my tag on the first freaking day of archery, and it was my first time hunting archery. (I got SUPER lucky) The other two tags that are intrinsic to a multiseason tag, went to waste for all intents and purposes. Last year, I ate the tag, and i'm pretty sure i'm about to eat another multi season tag.
> 
> Each year, one hunter, 3 tags. That's a multi-season tag in a nutshell. Multiply that by however many multi-tags are being sold, and look at the percentages. It might be telling. Personally, I would GLADLY do away with the multiseason tag then go to a draw. I honestly don't like hunting certain seasons (looking at you rifle!) , only reason I buy the tag at all is because i'm an addict, and i'll hunt a season i don't like, then not hunt at all. Going to a draw changes that equation dramatically. I'd rather hunt a single season every year guaranteed, then have no tag at all.


2018 was the first year they did multi season.

42% of the tags sold last year were for the multi season.

they should throw 200 give or take multi season tags into a draw, unit specific, 100% random, no points, and that’s the only way to get one. Single season should continue to be OTC, FCFS.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Draw for everything the state has to offer for big game hunts. 0 allocation of permits go to youth hunters. They have to compete with the rest of the applicants. If the youth get a break, why not the old farts? 

It doesn't matter what they decide to do either way. I foresee the future of drawing a hunting deer/elk tag in Utah something that will only happen every three years. Its coming and we cant stuff are heads in the sand and believe it isn't happening.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Critter said:


> Lets tick everyone off and only have a single draw for elk. Do away with the draw for anterless and combine it into a elk draw. If you want to use a dozen points on a anterless tag then do it. Just one elk tag a year for each hunter unless they want to set something up to allow a couple of anterless tags due to private property or a area where they want the elk gone.


The standing antlerless rule is about as dumb as it gets.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

taxidermist said:


> Draw for everything the state has to offer for big game hunts. 0 allocation of permits go to youth hunters. They have to compete with the rest of the applicants. If the youth get a break, why not the old farts?
> 
> It doesn't matter what they decide to do either way. I foresee the future of drawing a hunting deer/elk tag in Utah something that will only happen every three years. Its coming and we cant stuff are heads in the sand and believe it isn't happening.


Because the "old farts" have already spent a lifetime hunting maybe?


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

You people do realize that this proposal has nothing to do with increased success rates or lack of elk right? That has never been the argument.

It has every thing to do with appeasing a vocal crowd who haven't figured out how to get a tag.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Here is another scenario that will ruffle feathers.... If you apply for a LE tag it eliminates you from the GS draw, and if yo apply for GS and draw, your eliminated for the LE tag if you applied. That would leave draw odds better for those that don't apply for the LE and the GS. And then.... Have a one year waiting period before applying for a GS permit.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

In all honesty! I'd like to see a mandatory harvest reporting rule in place on ALL big game hunts. Have a window of 30 days after the hunt date ends to send in your harvest report, or your eliminated from the application process the following year.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

taxidermist said:


> In all honesty! I'd like to see a mandatory harvest reporting rule in place on ALL big game hunts. Have a window of 30 days after the hunt date ends to send in your harvest report, or your eliminated from the application process the following year.


Not that this would make any difference but if it makes you feel better I'll go along with it.


----------



## TheOtherJeff (Oct 7, 2021)

johnnycake said:


> You don't want to hunt the blow gun only swan tag in the Lehi Home Deport Parking Lot unit that you drew? Tough nuts, that's your tag.


I thought we weren't supposed to post our honey holes in the forum?


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

TheOtherJeff said:


> I thought we weren't supposed to post our honey holes in the forum?


Life sucks, then you die.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

What cluster!


----------



## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

*“Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program” – Milton Friedman*


----------



## archeryobsession (Mar 23, 2013)

Ray said:


> as long as they keep archery unlimited, you can still hunt every year


That’s just what I want, 10000 more archery hunters out in the field!


----------



## Ray (May 10, 2018)

archeryobsession said:


> That’s just what I want, 10000 more archery hunters out in the field!


😂 well when you put it like that


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

archeryobsession said:


> That’s just what I want, 10000 more archery hunters out in the field!


Exactly!! Why should the stick flippers be catered to? Make EVERY weapon, season, a draw and eliminate the 3 season hunt. Pick your weapon and that's it. Or just leave things alone and carry on. Seems every time the DWR attempts to change for the "better" it takes a left turn somewhere.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

The reason a lot of us are frustrated and upset about the proposed changes is the exact same reason the DWR is proposing the changes! Hear me out- one guy wants nothing more than to kill a two point every year for jerky or to feed his family. One guy wants to hunt archery only and feels his way of hunting is the best. One guy wants to shoot a long range rifle a d one guy wants to use a flintlock. One guy thinks a 180 inch buck is a last day buck and another guy has never seen a 180 buck in his life. One guy lives for elk hunting and another only applies for antelope.
To me, managing this state for opportunity (meaning easy to draw tags for about everyone that wants one), and managing for trophies which take decades to draw are impossible to do concurrently. They have tried by offering spike hunts on trophy bull units, which then upset the guys who saw the quality of the elk units drop. They offered any bull tags on certain areas which have increased in popularity and caused over crowded hunts and hammered the elk herd in those fringe areas with low populations to begin with. I simply do not see as amicable solution to appease the majority. I for one and shocked that shed hunting hasn’t progressed to having to purchase a permit or even apply for one. When I started picking up horns I was the only guy on the winter range. Look at the difference today. In 1980 the population of Utah was 1461037. The population today is 2995919!!!!!! I am not a math major but that’s a bunch of people. How do your propose we make all of the separate groups content? It’s impossible. I sincerely hope they keep spike and any bull tags OTC. But with the irresponsible population explosion I see no way they can without pissing a lot of people and groups of folks off. If you think hunting is messed up, just wait until people turn on the water faucet and nothing come out. This entire fiasco of a cluster is directly caused by horrible planning and a build build build mentality that sacrificed the resources in exchange for dollar bills!!! Utah has never seen a subdivision it didn’t love! Deer, elk, water be damned!


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

cowboy said:


> The reason a lot of us are frustrated and upset about the proposed changes is the exact same reason the DWR is proposing the changes! Hear me out- one guy wants nothing more than to kill a two point every year for jerky or to feed his family. One guy wants to hunt archery only and feels his way of hunting is the best. One guy wants to shoot a long range rifle a d one guy wants to use a flintlock. One guy thinks a 180 inch buck is a last day buck and another guy has never seen a 180 buck in his life. One guy lives for elk hunting and another only applies for antelope.
> To me, managing this state for opportunity (meaning easy to draw tags for about everyone that wants one), and managing for trophies which take decades to draw are impossible to do concurrently. They have tried by offering spike hunts on trophy bull units, which then upset the guys who saw the quality of the elk units drop. They offered any bull tags on certain areas which have increased in popularity and caused over crowded hunts and hammered the elk herd in those fringe areas with low populations to begin with. I simply do not see as amicable solution to appease the majority. I for one and shocked that shed hunting hasn’t progressed to having to purchase a permit or even apply for one. When I started picking up horns I was the only guy on the winter range. Look at the difference today. In 1980 the population of Utah was 1461037. The population today is 2995919!!!!!! I am not a math major but that’s a bunch of people. How do your propose we make all of the separate groups content? It’s impossible. I sincerely hope they keep spike and any bull tags OTC. But with the irresponsible population explosion I see no way they can without pissing a lot of people and groups of folks off. If you think hunting is messed up, just wait until people turn on the water faucet and nothing come out. This entire fiasco of a cluster is directly caused by horrible planning and a build build build mentality that sacrificed the resources in exchange for dollar bills!!! Utah has never seen a subdivision it didn’t love! Deer, elk, water be damned!


Perfectly stated!!


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Cowboy, I disagree with one aspect of your post. If people want hard to draw opportunities for “trophy” deer and elk, we have that: it’s called LE. You appease the majority by having different types of opportunities out there and let people choose what they want to do.

It looks like they’re driving the bus away from opportunity on elk tags in favor of people that want things limited, and because they’re own infrastructure and system is outdated and inadequate. So instead of updating their system, which I’ve been told would be rather simple, and telling these whiney small segments of hunters that want the elk tags in a draw that they already have an elk draw to go out in for, they propose another horrifically stupid idea to make everything a draw system.

How has that worked out for everything else? Are people less frustrated with how long it takes to draw a doe pronghorn or cow elk permit than they are with general season elk? I’m guessing no. I’m certainly not, that’s for sure!


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Vanilla I agree with ya completely. But let me ask ya this- If you or I try to buy either a spike or any bull elk tag OTC and fail for two or three or four years in a row, will we feel differently? I agree that the system the state uses for online sales is ancient and outdated. But what if the problem is there are way more folks wanting tags than tags available? I don’t know the answer to my own questions so I’m throwing it out there to see what you and others think.

I want them to remain the way it is. But that serves only me and what I want/like.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

taxidermist said:


> In all honesty! I'd like to see a mandatory harvest reporting rule in place on ALL big game hunts. Have a window of 30 days after the hunt date ends to send in your harvest report, or your eliminated from the application process the following year.


My state does exactly that. But then there is the grace period and reminder, and then the option to pay a $15 late fee to still apply.

UT is all about the participation trophy, so they'll do something similar...


----------



## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

There have been many well thought out plans, proposals, solutions, etc. put forth on this thread some of which I agree with, some of which I don’t. 

However, can we all agree on one thing? DWR JUST FIX YOUR **** SYSTEM!

If they just did that, I think it would appease a lot of the constituents, but the reality is not everyone will be happy - demand outweighs supply. That said, no one would be unhappy with a fricken system that actually works, whatever the tag allocation construct ends up being


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Can't resist--> In a perfect world where the DWR's system is 100% working and can handle all the traffic in the world, what happens when the elk tags sell out in 15 minutes? Only those with the best and fastest internet get a tag. Will it then be time to go to a draw? Maybe we ain't there yet but ya'll keep having 5 kids a piece plus California moving in and we are there. I know Vanilla's answer-->OTC forever and always! even if they sell out in 2 minutes! 

Sorry--couldn't help myself


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Airborne said:


> I know Vanilla's answer-->OTC forever and always! even if they sell out in 2 minutes!


Correct. That would be my answer. OTC forever for these general season elk permits. Forever.

However, they acknowledge in the presentation the multi-season tags have brought a significant number of archery only hunters into the other seasons, adding to the strain on the demand. Just end multi-season tags and they may not even have to fix their poopy system. Make people pick their weapon. Add a code into the software that does not allow a person to login from multiple devices. Boom, problem is solved.

It really is that simple. Or we can add another permit to the draw, charge more money, make it more difficult to get tags every year, and further complicate our big game draw system. Either way…I guess different strokes for different folks. I like simplicity and hunting. Some like complicating things and pizzing money away and never getting a tag.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

You poor, poor bastages.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

KRH said:


> There have been many well thought out plans, proposals, solutions, etc. put forth on this thread some of which I agree with, some of which I don’t.
> 
> However, can we all agree on one thing? DWR JUST FIX YOUR **** SYSTEM!
> 
> If they just did that, I think it would appease a lot of the constituents, but the reality is not everyone will be happy - demand outweighs supply. That said, no one would be unhappy with a fricken system that actually works, whatever the tag allocation construct ends up being


I like the idea to fix it! The cost to do that I'd think would be a catalyst to drive the price of tags. Inflation is happening so why not add the cost to hunt to it?


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Correct. That would be my answer. OTC forever for these general season elk permits. Forever.

Maybe close the State to hunting only every other year. At least one might see something to shoot at.

I looked into the crystal ball and it showed me that in 20 years a GS deer tag will become a OIL tag.


----------



## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

Remember when Utah added the right to hunt and fish to the state constitution earlier this year. I guess the good news, is that in the future when you're only able to Hunt once every few years in the state, the right will be constitutionally protected. So they'll never do away with hunting opportunity entirely, they'll just slowly make it hard for the average joe to hunt and it'll be the rich man's trophy land. 

I'm no expert on wildlife management, and it's easy to armchair quarterback these decisions, but it really feels like to me that Utah is missing the mark regarding wildlife management when comparing to other states.


----------



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Surprised I haven't seen a thread on this yet. 









Utah DWR seeks to test new elk hunt lottery as permits become harder to get


Utah Division of Wildlife Resources officials want to move elk permits from first-come-first-serve to a big game drawing format in a new




www.ksl.com





I wondered if it was inevitable. If they are going to sell out every year anyways, what's the point in implementing a draw system? $ ?



Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk


----------



## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

Not directly about this one, but the thread on the 2022 proposals is currently at 6 pages. Most of the conversation in that thread revolves around this subject.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

2022 Big Game Recommendations are out


In all honesty! I'd like to see a mandatory harvest reporting rule in place on ALL big game hunts. Have a window of 30 days after the hunt date ends to send in your harvest report, or your eliminated from the application process the following year. My state does exactly that. But then there...




www.utahwildlife.net


----------



## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

Is there a good way to estimate how many tags would be sold if they just made OTC elk completely unlimited? How many more tags relative to the 17,500 and 15,000 tags? Are we talking a few thousand more or tens of thousands more? I think the former would have little impact on what is already a low percentage crowded hunt, whereas the latter would pose a problem.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

KRH said:


> Is there a good way to estimate how many tags would be sold if they just made OTC elk completely unlimited? How many more tags relative to the 17,500 and 15,000 tags? Are we talking a few thousand more or tens of thousands more? I think the former would have little impact on what is already a low percentage crowded hunt, whereas the latter would pose a problem.


So go fully unlimited and just wipe out the elk herd? Take what you you said was already a low percentage crowded hunt and just send unlimited people out to make it less crowded and a higher percentage? I just do not see the logic. Yes, you would find out what the demand for tags would be for sure. What would be the point after we shot dang near every elk in the open bull areas? The resource has to take precedence over selling tags. Unless the goal is zero OTC elk tags. DWR biologists have set the number of sustainable elk tags to keep the elk herd healthy. Unlimited tags makes zero sense for me, respectfully.


----------



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

If this trial period takes place, it needs to have a $0.00 price tag attached to the application or the numbers will be skewed to compare to the process to last years $0.00 ‘process’.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

MrShane said:


> If this trial period takes place, it needs to have a $0.00 price tag attached to the application or the numbers will be skewed to compare to the process to last years $0.00 ‘process’.


Require that the total amount of the permit be summited with the application like it was years ago. That would generate more money to the DWR sitting on tens of thousands dollars worth of interest for two months than the $10 fee now in place. That would also allow the permit price not to be raised more than they are now.


----------



## bwood (Jan 5, 2011)

First let me say I haven't read the other thread yet. The second thing is that I don't buy rifle elk tags so I don't have a dog in this fight. The main reason I support this is that is tags are going to sell out in a matter of hours The poor guy who has to work at that time could never get a tag. It is only going to get worse. There will continue to be more hunters and fewer tags. Unit quotas and preference points are inevitable. That is better than having no chance at a tag because you have a job that won't let you be on the computer when the tags go on sale.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The can't place the money into a interest bearing account unless they want to refund the money+interest when you don't draw.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

justismi28 said:


> I'm no expert on wildlife management, and it's easy to armchair quarterback these decisions, but it really feels like to me that Utah is missing the mark regarding wildlife management when comparing to other states.


None of these are wildlife management decisions. They are all hunter management decisions. It only impacts how you obtain a permit. It will have ZERO positive or negative impact in any way on wildlife.

In fact, with all the proposals we’re seeing from the division these days, we probably ought to rename them the “Division of Hunter Resources.”


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

General elk is already unlimited: it’s called archery. And you could give out unlimited tags for rifle and still not eliminate the herd. These places are A LOT harder to hunt than most people realize, especially if you want to be successful.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

How many people did this actually happen to that couldn’t even attempt to get on. I argued last year with a person on another forum that whined for 5 days about how “hard” it was to get a tag and how unfair it is because he had to work.

Guess what? He had a friggin tag! Some people just want to whine. No matter what.

Again, how many people that wanted a tag didn’t get one because they had to work and couldn’t try? 30,000 permits were distributed in addition to however many archery only and youth tags were sold. So what percentage of the population are we catering to here by going to a draw because it “isn’t fair” they have to work?

Think about that. What percentage of people are being catered to here by screwing over the other tens of thousands? Embarrassing.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> General elk is already unlimited: it’s called archery. And you could give out unlimited tags for rifle and still not eliminate the herd. These places are A LOT harder to hunt than most people realize, especially if you want to be successful.


100%. It’s kinda funny how even just a little effort gets you out of the way from most hunters. If you can’t see it from the road, most guys won’t hunt it when it comes to elk. Elk know how and where to stay alive when they feel pressured.


----------



## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

cowboy said:


> So go fully unlimited and just wipe out the elk herd? Take what you you said was already a low percentage crowded hunt and just send unlimited people out to make it less crowded and a higher percentage? I just do not see the logic. Yes, you would find out what the demand for tags would be for sure. What would be the point after we shot dang near every elk in the open bull areas? The resource has to take precedence over selling tags. Unless the goal is zero OTC elk tags. DWR biologists have set the number of sustainable elk tags to keep the elk herd healthy. Unlimited tags makes zero sense for me, respectfully.


Your point is well taken, but I think you are assuming there is a TON more demand, which maybe there is, I don't know the data. I wasn't necessarily advocating for unlimited tags, I'm wondering how much demand there is above the 17,500 Bull tags and 15,000 spike tags. Are we talking a couple thousand more or are we talking tens of thousands more? Is there any good data on demand that we can use now ( for instance, I would not be an advocate of just going completely OTC and selling 50,000 tags)? If it's just a few thousand more, I don't think it would make much of a difference since most general elk hunters in Utah hunt within a few miles of the road and don't kill anything anyway - I think this would have minimal impact on the herds or crowds and not "just wipe out the elk herd". If we're talking tens of thousands more, I agree with you it would be a problem. Unlimited tags might make sense for me, depending on the data, respectfully.


----------



## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> General elk is already unlimited: it’s called archery. And you could give out unlimited tags for rifle and still not eliminate the herd. These places are A LOT harder to hunt than most people realize, especially if you want to be successful.


Preach


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

This proposal is BS! I hope all of us comment online and try to attend the RAC meetings.

Improve your **** system! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out their system isn't up to par.

Once this goes to a draw, it won't come back - just like a gov't benefit never gets reversed.

And the extra $10 per tag to apply? So sick of getting nickle and dimed! 

Anybody at DWR thought that the last 2 years of applications may have been an anomally with COVID? Yes, more hunters equals more competition for tags, but don't use the last 2 years as your justification for a draw system. Ridiculous...

And while we're here, $10 app fee for Res and $15 for NR? I'm tired of getting punked out of state and then UT going easy on NR here. Bend them over the barrel like they do to their NR applicants!

OK, rant over. Now on to contacting my reps. Hope you all do the same.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

The any bull tags were the only ones to sell out in hours. Mostly driven by panic buying.

The spike tags were available for at least 4 days after they went on sale. How many spike tags were purchased by people who didn't get an any bull tag? No way to know.

Success rates for both hunts range around 10% There is nobody out there killing all the elk.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

bwood said:


> First let me say I haven't read the other thread yet. The second thing is that I don't buy rifle elk tags so I don't have a dog in this fight. The main reason I support this is that is tags are going to sell out in a matter of hours The poor guy who has to work at that time could never get a tag. It is only going to get worse. There will continue to be more hunters and fewer tags. Unit quotas and preference points are inevitable. That is better than having no chance at a tag because you have a job that won't let you be on the computer when the tags go on sale.


 The only tags that sold out in hours were the any bull tags. Spike tags were available for around 4 days after they went on sale.

With less than 10% success rates for most general areas elk are not dyeing in unsustainable numbers. This is just hunter management. Nobody wants to see that pumpkin on the next ridge over.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

I surrender. I’ve only archery elk hunted since 1982. I’d have zero idea how many elk are in Utah or how hunting pressure affects them. Kill them all


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

cowboy said:


> I surrender. I’ve only archery elk hunted since 1982. I’d have zero idea how many elk are in Utah or how hunting pressure affects them. Kill them all


Now don’t exaggerate here, but in almost 40 seasons of archery elk hunting, how many elk have you taken with a bow in utah?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Since we had two threads going on the same subject I merged them together.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

cowboy said:


> I surrender. I’ve only archery elk hunted since 1982. I’d have zero idea how many elk are in Utah or how hunting pressure affects them. Kill them all


No need to surrender. Your input is as valid as any other.
If you have any interest in learning here is a little information.



https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/bg/elk_plan.pdf



That said I've hunted elk with archery tackle for the last 25 years or so. But I will admit I have purchased a multi season tag since they have been offered I like to hunt, apparently a lot! And though I have shot a few elk with the bow I have yet to draw blood with the multi season tag. Not for lack of animals to shoot, but more about letting others have the chance.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Critter said:


> The can't place the money into a interest bearing account unless they want to refund the money+interest when you don't draw.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


Did not know that.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

taxidermist said:


> Did not know that.


I learned that myself a couple of years ago. 

Besides that they make more money with the application fee

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Guess that will never change then.

Whatever happens, I'll wait and see if I really want to continue applying for big game. I feel bad for the 10 year old kids looking forward to hunting though.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Those kids will never know any difference. Except for when they move on to the "adult" draws and out of the youth hunts.

It's a lot like when someone here complains about the crowds during the deer and elk hunts. They too will never see or know the crowds of the deer hunts of the 60's, 70's, and 80's or of the crowds that would head out with general season bull elk tags.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

MooseMeat said:


> Now don’t exaggerate here, but in almost 40 seasons of archery elk hunting, how many elk have you taken with a bow in utah?


Not that it’s any of your business but I’ll bite on your question. 9 spikes, 2 branch antlered bulls on any bull units, 1 LE bull on La Sal and 13 cows on a mixture of spike only and any bull units. And I’ve killed 2 spike and 5 cows with a rifle. How many have you killed sir?


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

I will be the first to say I got into hunting before it became the circus it’s has become. I’m fortunate to have been raised by two amazing parents who hunt. My 77 year old mom killed a cow elk threw weeks ago. I spent 12 years guiding before my kids got old enough to hunt. I’ve had a great hunting career and I hope it continues for another 25 years or so. I don’t say this as bragging either. I’ve been very blessed for sure


----------



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Vanilla said:


> How many people did this actually happen to that couldn’t even attempt to get on. I argued last year with a person on another forum that whined for 5 days about how “hard” it was to get a tag and how unfair it is because he had to work.
> 
> Guess what? He had a friggin tag! Some people just want to whine. No matter what.
> 
> ...


Vanilla for WB President I say!


----------



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

taxidermist said:


> Require that the total amount of the permit be summited with the application like it was years ago. That would generate more money to the DWR sitting on tens of thousands dollars worth of interest for two months than the $10 fee now in place. That would also allow the permit price not to be raised more than they are now.


Every year weeks prior to the draw I have a nocturnal discharge dream that we went back to this system.
Then I wake up and realize it is going to be many, many years before I draw my desired tags.
It would weed out the guys sitting on the fence.
Notice point creep took place not many years after you did not have to front your frog skins along with your application.
While not popular, but incredible ideas rarely are, to REALLY get rid of point creep lose the option of just applying for a bonus point.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

cowboy said:


> What would be the point after we shot dang near every elk in the open bull areas? The resource has to take precedence over selling tags. Unless the goal is zero OTC elk tags. DWR biologists have set the number of sustainable elk tags to keep the elk herd healthy. Unlimited tags makes zero sense for me, respectfully.


That dang near has already happened with focusing all the available tags in very limited available areas (any bull units), and, very limited (spike only) populations everywhere else.

If UT wants to go to a complete draw, the LE concept the way it currently is is over. Wipe out all points by increasing tags 50% above current numbers and never issue another point regardless if whether or not you draw and never offer the option to buy a point. Then add all general bull tags to the pool, shorten and add seasons, but first, move that idiotic rifle hunt out of September.

Time for UT to step it up a little because their old model is a dinosaur...


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

cowboy said:


> Not that it’s any of your business but I’ll bite on your question. 9 spikes, 2 branch antlered bulls on any bull units, 1 LE bull on La Sal and 13 cows on a mixture of spike only and any bull units. And I’ve killed 2 spike and 5 cows with a rifle. How many have you killed sir?


Who are you talking to?


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MWScott72 said:


> UT going easy on NR here. Bend them over the barrel like they do to their NR applicants!


By all means do so. UT really doesn't have anything better to offer the NR that they can find elsewhere and with way more opportunity...

Besides, they already kind of do. The increase in tag fees and the NR game license prior to applying for the draw. UT is just following what other states do on NR app fees.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Moose meat asked


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

cowboy said:


> Not that it’s any of your business but I’ll bite on your question. 9 spikes, 2 branch antlered bulls on any bull units, 1 LE bull on La Sal and 13 cows on a mixture of spike only and any bull units. And I’ve killed 2 spike and 5 cows with a rifle. How many have you killed sir?


The only body count that is worth anything is how many calves you've killed.


----------



## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I suggested that they remove the multi season tag (even though I like it) because the selling out rate seemed to increase greatly when they started offering that and then offer a combo in place that is an archery/primitive ML tag (flintlock and maybe 19th century design cap lock). Or that if they do make the any legal weapon tag a draw then they should offer unlimited otc flintlock tag so that guys that really want to rifle hunt every year have an option to do so and the harvest rate won't be too high and I doubt there'd be that many people participating. I also suggested they implement a log in feature on the website for online sales that only allows a certain number of people to log in at a time and would prevent people from trying to get on the queue with multiple devices. I also suggested they eliminate online sales for it or do nothing, because the folks that are serious about getting a tag will find a way to make time to get one. 

Not sure if my suggestions would be well received, but they make sense to me haha


----------



## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

cowboy said:


> The reason a lot of us are frustrated and upset about the proposed changes is the exact same reason the DWR is proposing the changes! Hear me out- one guy wants nothing more than to kill a two point every year for jerky or to feed his family. One guy wants to hunt archery only and feels his way of hunting is the best. One guy wants to shoot a long range rifle a d one guy wants to use a flintlock. One guy thinks a 180 inch buck is a last day buck and another guy has never seen a 180 buck in his life. One guy lives for elk hunting and another only applies for antelope.
> To me, managing this state for opportunity (meaning easy to draw tags for about everyone that wants one), and managing for trophies which take decades to draw are impossible to do concurrently. They have tried by offering spike hunts on trophy bull units, which then upset the guys who saw the quality of the elk units drop. They offered any bull tags on certain areas which have increased in popularity and caused over crowded hunts and hammered the elk herd in those fringe areas with low populations to begin with. I simply do not see as amicable solution to appease the majority. I for one and shocked that shed hunting hasn’t progressed to having to purchase a permit or even apply for one. When I started picking up horns I was the only guy on the winter range. Look at the difference today. In 1980 the population of Utah was 1461037. The population today is 2995919!!!!!! I am not a math major but that’s a bunch of people. How do your propose we make all of the separate groups content? It’s impossible. I sincerely hope they keep spike and any bull tags OTC. But with the irresponsible population explosion I see no way they can without pissing a lot of people and groups of folks off. If you think hunting is messed up, just wait until people turn on the water faucet and nothing come out. This entire fiasco of a cluster is directly caused by horrible planning and a build build build mentality that sacrificed the resources in exchange for dollar bills!!! Utah has never seen a subdivision it didn’t love! Deer, elk, water be damned!


Yup, and now there's going to be a friggin gondola going up little cottonwood that benefits no one but Alta, snowbird, and la chaille


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

cowboy said:


> Not that it’s any of your business but I’ll bite on your question. 9 spikes, 2 branch antlered bulls on any bull units, 1 LE bull on La Sal and 13 cows on a mixture of spike only and any bull units. And I’ve killed 2 spike and 5 cows with a rifle. How many have you killed sir?


So you’re in the top 10% of hunters. Great job. In a much shorter time span of hunting elk (16 years) I’ve killed a pile of elk similar to yours with all weapon types. I was just curious if you hunted elk or killed elk in 40 years. The difference between the 2 is relevant when you say you know how pressure impacts elk. Many guys think that elk don’t exist if you can’t see them from the road. Those are also the people who say pressure impacts elk the most and they are also in the bottom 90% of hunters.

we gave up managing wildlife many years ago and now we aren’t even managing hunters in this state anymore. We are managing social feelings. This has nothing to do with wildlife or hunters. This has everything to do with whiny people bitching that they didn’t plan ahead. That’s it.


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

MooseMeat said:


> So you’re in the top 10% of hunters. Great job. In a much shorter time span of hunting elk (16 years) I’ve killed a pile of elk similar to yours with all weapon types. I was just curious if you hunted elk or killed elk in 40 years. The difference between the 2 is relevant when you say you know how pressure impacts elk. Many guys think that elk don’t exist if you can’t see them from the road. Those are also the people who say pressure impacts elk the most and they are also in the bottom 90% of hunters.
> 
> we gave up managing wildlife many years ago and now we aren’t even managing hunters in this state anymore. We are managing social feelings. This has nothing to do with wildlife or hunters. *This has everything to do with whiny people bitching that they didn’t plan ahead. That’s it.*


My grandson bought his first multi-season bull tag this year(first bull tag of any kind). He works alot, been out a few times. Comes home complaining about too many hunters and not seeing any elk. I just smile and say you "ain't gonna see any complaining to me. " The neighbor is gonna take him out this weekend, he's an experienced and successful elk hunter.


----------



## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

The selling out of tags only became a problem with advent of the three season elk tag b/c archers moved into this pool of hunters from the unlimited archery tag pool.


----------



## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

I agree, selling out and increased pressure as well. Trouble is, I don't see them turning away the extra money from the multi-season.


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Here's a summary of what I observed at the Central RAC meeting last night (anyone else can feel free to hop in if I'm missing an important detail):

There was a lot of discussion surrounding moving general elk tags to a draw system. Most public comment was in opposition. SFW "reluctantly" supported it, and only with the caveat that it would be a one-year trial. One argument the Division made in favor of it was that it would provide them with data to more accurately quantify true demand for the tags, which could then be used to come up with a long-term solution when the elk plan is rewritten next year. Members of the public and RAC questioned whether it would be good data, or whether the draw would just motivate more people to apply.

One alternative idea that was presented was to issue unlimited any bull elk tags for one year. It was argued that this would serve a similar purpose in quantifying true demand, while also avoiding issues with the OTC sales system. Some concern was expressed about whether allowing unlimited any bull elk tags on top of the multi-season tags would be allowing for too much pressure.

Ultimately, a motion was made to recommend keeping general season elk tags over the counter next year, and to recommend issuing unlimited any bull elk tags next year, with the understanding being that a longer-term solution will be addressed in the elk plan for years following. The motion passed 9-1. Then, a motion was made to suspend the multi-season tag for the same one-year period. It failed 5-6 (with the RAC chair having to break the tie).

Most public comment was against changing the 50/50 split to 60/40. SFW was against the change. A motion was made to keep the 50/50 split, and it passed 9-1.

A motion was made to add two days to the youth any bull elk hunt, with the rationale being that it would give youth hunters a bit more time in the field without having to compete with archery hunters. This would push the season up to the day before the muzzleloader deer hunt starts. This motion passed unanimously.

There were a few other motions and topics I have not included because they're less relevant to the discussions on this thread.

On the whole, I'm pleased with the Central RAC and the efforts their members take to advocate for the public. My hope is that the wildlife board will take public comment as seriously as the Central RAC did.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Thank you for the update. And kudos to you for taking the time to get involved.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Clarq said:


> On the whole, I'm pleased with the Central RAC and the efforts their members take to advocate for the public. My hope is that the wildlife board will take public comment as seriously as the Central RAC did.


If this current Board has proven anything, it is that they not only don't care about what the public thinks, they also don't care about what the RACs think. But yes, I hold out hope, if for no other reason I am a glutton for punishment. 

Thanks for this update. I'm pleased with how the Central RAC handled this. If they want the data, making elk tags unlimited would certainly give them that data as easily, if not more so than moving into a draw. There simply is no way they take this out of a draw if it goes there. DWR isn't giving up the application money willingly. SFW knows that, and I think this "reluctant" support accounts for that knowledge. I don't trust them, but only because I've been paying attention for the last 15 years.


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

If it goes unlimited OTC next year it might be time to cash in my LE elk points and wait for the dust to settle. Hey Niller' ya want to put in together buddy? I'm sitting at 16 points  We can use your points to bump me up to an early rifle tag on the Manti!


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> If this current Board has proven anything, it is that they not only don't care about what the public thinks, they also don't care about what the RACs think. But yes, I hold out hope, if for no other reason I am a glutton for punishment.


We [the public] asked for this system. Maybe it's time that we ask to remove the system (RAC / WB) and go back to allowing our biologists and managers to manage wildlife and stop managing social feelings, as pointed out by Moosemeat.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

PBH said:


> We [the public] asked for this system. Maybe it's time that we ask to remove the system (RAC / WB) and go back to allowing our biologists and managers to manage wildlife and stop managing social feelings, as pointed out by Moosemeat.


That sounds great in theory, but we still end up with problems with the Wildlife Board. Until changes are made there, it will be "same old same old". Currently, it seems like the RAC at least creates a semblance of proper function on most issues only to have things quashed at the end by the WB.


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Clarq summarized well the discussion on the OTC / Draw discussion and the proposal to go to a 60/40 split on LE tags. I was actually at the meeting last night and have a couple additional insights on this issue.

82 percent of public comment was against going to a draw system for general elk. There were roughly 100 comments received prior to the meeting. The Central RAC took public sentiment very seriously (as they should).

It is still DWRs (Covy conveyed this) that unlimited any bull tags will not have a measurable impact on herd numbers. After hearing more discussion on this, I am persuaded to agree. "Unlimited" any bull tags will make elk harder to hunt, but it won't make a significant impact on herd numbers because success rates are only ~10% on any bull units...so at current rates, only roughly 1500 bulls are being killed on any bull units. Given the access and physical nature of the any bull hunts, unlimited tags will not significantly impact overall herd numbers.

Just for some additional food for thought, spike unit success was pegged at ~6% state wide. Last year, fewer than 900 spikes were killed.

Believe it or not, the discussion to approve the current 1/3 of CWMUs up for renewal or initial approval was almost as vigorous as the general elk discussion. The RAC had serious concerns about public lands on the periphery of CWMUs being included in CWMU acreages...sometimes, this is/was done blatantly to allow for a contiguous 5,000 acres for deer and 10,000 acres for elk (i believe those acreage requirements are rule). There was much discussion on this and it went back and forth - some members favoring to dissapprove any CWMUs with public acreage included so that they could make the contiguous acreage requirements all the way to other members favoring to punt the public land question and approve DWRs recommendations as is. At the end, a compromise was reached to approve DWRs recommendations on the CWMU approvals. A follow-up motion recommended that any CWMU that includes public land be reviewed 1 year prior to their 3 year COR re-approval to decide whether the public land inclusion is warranted / appropriate. I believe both passed unanimously.

All in all, a good meeting, but it did go long. I think it ended about 9:50. Made for a late night with the hour long drive back to SLC.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Airborne said:


> If it goes unlimited OTC next year it might be time to cash in my LE elk points and wait for the dust to settle. Hey Niller' ya want to put in together buddy? I'm sitting at 16 points  We can use your points to bump me up to an early rifle tag on the Manti!


How much is that early rifle Manti tag worth to you? 

I've got plans. Not very good ones, but I've got them. Stay tuned in the next two years!

And unlimited OTC tags is an infinitely better solution to this "problem" than going to a draw.


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

When it comes down to it, the multi-season tags (and COVID) are causing the crush on general elk tags. 2018 was the first year the multi tags were available and they sold out in 36 days. In 2019 (after a year for “word to get out”) 11 days. Then COVID hit in 2020 and the world went to shiz and any bull sold out in 8 hrs.

FYI, there were over 7K multi tags issued last year, so 45 percent or so of the overall 17,500. Never had this issue prior to the multi tag - you could buy a tag all the way into mid-Sept! I wish the RAC would have voted to suspend the multi tag for one year - if they did that, I think there would be a truer picture of the overall picture and where we need to go in the future.

Incidentally, spike tags lasted 5 days before being sold out last year, so you could still grab a tag easily if you wanted to just go and hunt.


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I have a friend who is on a RAC board (not gonna say who or where) that I brought up the multi season option as the reason for inspiring demand. He said in his conversations with the DWR that by their analysis of demand that even doing away with the multi season tags it would not alleviate the incredible demand for these tags. So as much as I would be on board with eliminating the multi season or even quadrupling the cost of it, I don't think that would be the answer to decreasing demand. Too many folks wanting to elk hunt now a days. Utah is growing and this is what we get. Either a draw or unlimited it will be interesting to see what happens and the data they compile but even with that data, things change so quickly and it is a no win situation. Demand simply outpaces supply and folks are going to be upset regardless.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Airborne said:


> I have a friend who is on a RAC board (not gonna say who or where) that I brought up the multi season option as the reason for inspiring demand. He said in his conversations with the DWR that by their analysis of demand that even doing away with the multi season tags it would not alleviate the incredible demand for these tags. So as much as I would be on board with eliminating the multi season or even quadrupling the cost of it, I don't think that would be the answer to decreasing demand. Too many folks wanting to elk hunt now a days. Utah is growing and this is what we get. Either a draw or unlimited it will be interesting to see what happens and the data they compile but even with that data, things change so quickly and it is a no win situation. Demand simply outpaces supply and folks are going to be upset regardless.


👏👏👏👏👏 Amen!


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I believe the Division is saying that. I 100% believe they’re saying removing the multi-season tag is not going to alleviate demand. 

I equally believe the Division is wrong in saying that. 

7,000 multi-season permits at an increased cost of $100 per permit ($150 vs $50) equals $700,000. I think this is maybe blinding their assessment of what removing those multi-season permits would do to demand more than the actual assessment on the demand itself. The Division is not going to support something that cuts their revenue that much. And so they propose an alternative that not only protects that $700,000, it also increases it by adding in $10 for an application fee for every applicant. 

So again, I very much believe the Division is telling the RACs and WB that. I just don’t believe the Division on this one. At all.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> I believe the Division is saying that. I 100% believe they’re saying removing the multi-season tag is not going to alleviate demand.
> 
> I equally believe the Division is wrong in saying that.
> 
> ...


You are missing the Pittman-Robertson funds that match that $700k 3:1. It is really a $2.8M impact.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> You are missing the Pittman-Robertson funds that match that $700k 3:1. It is really a $2.8M impact.


Yes, I was missing that. Thank you for the correction. Even more so, now you know why the Division is saying what it is saying.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

So do you believe that only archers are buying a multi season tag? Was there any mention of decreased numbers of archery only tags being sold?


----------



## Daisy (Jan 4, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> You are missing the Pittman-Robertson funds that match that $700k 3:1. It is really a $2.8M impact.


How does Pittman Robertson finds come into play here? They are an excise tax on specific types of gear?


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

middlefork said:


> So do you believe that only archers are buying a multi season tag? Was there any mention of decreased numbers of archery only tags being sold?


Data I’d also love to know!!! Is the increase in multi season tags driven by archery hunters or new elk hunters? Should be easy for the division to see


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Daisy said:


> How does Pittman Robertson finds come into play here? They are an excise tax on specific types of gear?


That is how the funding is generated, but it is doled out to each state's wildlife program based on dollars generated in the state through license/permit sales, volunteer hours/donations, and a few other things that qualify. Basically, for every dollar a state brings in for hunting/fishing permits, the state receives $3 in Pittman-Robertson funding.


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

You can watch the recording of the meeting starting at the 1 hour, 39 minute mark for discussion on increasing demand and how the multi-season tags accelerated the process of selling tags out.

In summary, the division sold about 12,200 archery tags in 2017. When the multi-season tag was introduced in 2018, they sold about 9,700 archery tags. Thus, it looks like about 2,500 archers jumped to the multi-season tag when it was first offered.

In 2021, the division sold 12,439 archery tags. Thus, demand on the archery tags is back at 2017 levels despite the fact that the division added another 2,500 any bull tags and unlimited any bull tags for youth (which ended up being about 2,200).

All that being said, the main conclusion I gather is that demand has gone way up, and the multi-season tag is a factor but probably not the main factor.


----------



## Daisy (Jan 4, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> That is how the funding is generated, but it is doled out to each state's wildlife program based on dollars generated in the state through license/permit sales, volunteer hours/donations, and a few other things that qualify. Basically, for every dollar a state brings in for hunting/fishing permits, the state receives $3 in Pittman-Robertson funding.


Maybe in a generalized way that is how funds are "realized" by state, but the calculation by state is much more complex. Funds generated by license sales are not a factor. The number of paid licenses per state divided by the total paid licenses in the USA becomes on the of the many metrics used to disburse P-R funds. 

Here is a reasonable summary of how P-R funds are calculated and have recently been distributed:



https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R45667.pdf


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Thanks for the reply. I guess people just like to hunt elk. It isn't the success rates that makes it attractive.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Daisy said:


> Maybe in a generalized way that is how funds are "realized" by state, but the calculation by state is much more complex. Funds generated by license sales are not a factor. The number of paid licenses per state divided by the total paid licenses in the USA becomes on the of the many metrics used to disburse P-R funds.
> 
> Here is a reasonable summary of how P-R funds are calculated and have recently been distributed:
> 
> ...


Yes, but the end all result is that under 16 U.S.C. §§669e, 669g(b), and 669h-1 state projects (which are generally made to be all state wildlife related functions) are capped at 75% funding from federal funds. Which is why state's target to have their wildlife program budgets be based on setting the amounts directly derived in state (license sales primarily, but a few other things count too) equal to 25% of the budget.

--And for the most part, the formula setting the total amount in funding available for apportionment among the states has resulted in more funds available than the states are able to claim. Which is one major reason why you see license cost increases in many states the past decade.


----------



## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Clarq said:


> Thus, it looks like about 2,500 archers jumped to the multi-season tag when it was first offered.


If there are 7,000 multi season tags sold and 2,500 came from archers, that means 4,500 rifle hunters have joined the bow hunt.

This is consistent from what I’ve seen on the mountain, the archery elk hunt has been a circus since the intro of the multi season tags.


----------



## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

I can't see any value of drawing an elk tag for a hunt with such a low success rate. I'd rather see them cut the general tag allocation, and I'd be willing to pay more for the tag.


----------



## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

brisket said:


> If there are 7,000 multi season tags sold and 2,500 came from archers, that means 4,500 rifle hunters have joined the bow hunt.
> 
> This is consistent from what I’ve seen on the mountain, the archery elk hunt has been a circus since the intro of the multi season tags.


I have also seen that the muzzy hunt has become more crowded as well.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

maverick9465 said:


> I can't see any value of drawing an elk tag for a hunt with such a low success rate. I'd rather see them cut the general tag allocation, and I'd be willing to pay more for the tag.


This hunt is not intended to be a high success rate hunt. Never was that way. It never should be that way. 

Cut tag allocations and raise fees? Why do hunters hate hunting so much?


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

maverick9465 said:


> I can't see any value of drawing an elk tag for a hunt with such a low success rate. I'd rather see them cut the general tag allocation, and I'd be willing to pay more for the tag.


Hunter density is not creating the low success rate. Hunter density is a social problem.

Success rates on any bull units is terrain based as much as anything. Lots of area, not many elk.

Spike units have a more limited quantity of permits to insure adequate carry over to appease the LE hunters.

Any bull tags sold out in hours. Spike tags in days. In either case it seems like nobody cares what their chances are for success. One thing for sure is if you don't have a tag you have no chance.


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Some fun facts and figures from tonight's RAC that I've heard so far:

957 any bull tags (~5.5%) and 363 spike tags (2.4%) were sold to nonresidents last year.

42% of any bull tags sold are multi-season, while 28% of spike tags sold are multi-season.

The division pays about $2.50 of the $10 application fee to their application contractor. The remainder comes back to them.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

To be honest I'm surprised that there are that many non residents that apply. They must really look at the world with rose colored glasses.
The multi season tags not so much.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I would imagine that a number of the non residents who are picking up spike tags are students and or military.

Now the any bull is anyone's guess

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

The northern RAC voted to reject the draw and allow unlimited any bull elk tags to be sold for one year. The RAC also voted to recommend adding more any bull units (the ones that the division recommended last year, but that weren't accepted by the wildlife board).

They also voted to reject the 60/40 split and to add two additional days to the youth any bull elk hunt.


----------



## Isuckathunting (Sep 15, 2019)

The longer this goes, the more in favor of unlimited for a year I tilt. It's vastly better than restricting those tags to a draw, that it may never come out of. Unlimited tags provides the same data essentially without costing me another application fee.
All I want is to keep an OTC opportunity available to go hunt elk every year. Going unlimited for a year doesn't bother me one bit.


----------



## Daisy (Jan 4, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> Yes, but the end all result is that under 16 U.S.C. §§669e, 669g(b), and 669h-1 state projects (which are generally made to be all state wildlife related functions) are capped at 75% funding from federal funds. Which is why state's target to have their wildlife program budgets be based on setting the amounts directly derived in state (license sales primarily, but a few other things count too) equal to 25% of the budget.
> 
> --And for the most part, the formula setting the total amount in funding available for apportionment among the states has resulted in more funds available than the states are able to claim. Which is one major reason why you see license cost increases in many states the past decade.


It should be "certain" state wildlife functions.

Well it would appear that the State of Utah does not need to raise license costs/fees at all, considering their restricted funds (license sales, et al) are projected to account for 43% of its revenue for FY 2021. Sticking it to the little guy so that so that they can feed out of the larger trough. Sounds familiar these days.





__





Division of Wildlife Resources financial overview


The Utah DWR has several funding sources that are used to support its programs. Many of these programs support wildlife species that are pursued by hunters and anglers, while others support non-game species.




wildlife.utah.gov


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Just perused the Southern RAC on the elk draw recommendation, and the Southern RAC voted to oppose the draw recommendation. They voted 8-3 to make any bull unlimited and to keep spike at the current 15K permits - all OTC. They also voted unamimously to reject the 60/40 LE split and to keep it at 50/50.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> Just perused the Southern RAC on the elk draw recommendation, and the Southern RAC voted to oppose the draw recommendation. They voted 8-3 to make any bull unlimited and to keep spike at the current 15K permits - all OTC. They also voted unamimously to reject the 60/40 LE split and to keep it at 50/50.


There were some interesting comments made by RAC members on this one. The one RAC member talked about how in Idaho he has a computer, phone, tablet all open with multiple browsers open trying to get in for an OTC tag there. The lady sitting next to him made the very astute comment of "I think we just identified what our problem is here!" 

I should be simple for them to code into the system that any single hunter ID could only be logged in one time. No more logging in on multiple devices and having your wife/sister/mom/cousin/uncle login for you on three different devices as well trying to get a tag. You log in one place, one time, and that's it. That should not be a difficult thing to do. It also would cut down on the fake appearance of crazy demand. People go nuts when they think things are going to sell out. There are multiple ways to cut down on the frenzy without sending it into a draw. 

It looks like the vast majority of Utah hunters are showing they oppose this proposal by the DWR. That is good. The Wildlife Board can choose to ignore that, but I believe it would be to their detriment. Hopefully they are smart enough to see that, if for no other reason, self-preservation.


----------

