# OK to kill wildlife



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

And now Trump's war against nature and wildlife marches on. His latest is to de-criminalize the killing of migratory birds through the careless and thoughtless practices of industry. Industry will no longer be held responsible and liable for not using "best practices" in the day- to-day processes to insure the life and future of migratory birds in the Unites States. 
As we know from history, business never respond to anything other than the threat of legal action and subsequent financial loss from fines. With these inhibitors removed, we will see nightmare practices once again used by industry with little or no though to nature, the environment or life on earth in general. Profit will be their only guiding light.
Thanks Trump, you evil little man!

https://www.ksl.com/article/50056963/trump-administration-moves-to-weaken-migratory-bird-protections


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

“The Fish and Wildlife Service published its final environmental impact statement for regulations governing the killing of migratory birds.” Sounds to me like they did it based off of information gathered by the scientists. So what’s the problem?

Little man? Dudes a billionaire and will literally be in the history books, his name will be remembered for as long as there is a USA. Please, tell us of your exploits.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

As for killing birds, I have seen very little about what wind driver power generation does to them. Other than knock them out of the sky.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Ray said:


> "The Fish and Wildlife Service published its final environmental impact statement for regulations governing the killing of migratory birds." Sounds to me like they did it based off of information gathered by the scientists. So what's the problem?
> 
> Little man? Dudes a billionaire and will literally be in the history books, his name will be remembered for as long as there is a USA. Please, tell us of your exploits.


Oh for heaven sakes Ray, the scientists only provides data, Trump( or any current administration(that's why they call them "the administation") decided the interpretation ...or actually he simply took the recommendations from the various extractive industries... and made a decision.

Oh and yes, he will go down in history(infamy)...so did Hitler.

My exploits are irrelevant and trying to defer Trumps evilness onto me is just another "blame game" trick...I ain't buying it.

Ray, I really believe you're probably a good person, just a little confused from the constant bombardment of capitalist "the only thing in the world that really matters is the economy and profit" babble in todays America.
...and...OK, if it makes you feel better...Thanks Trump, you evil BIG man!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

The chances of this being driven by scientist is almost nil. We'll find out soon how the chain of command worked exactly but this was an industry influenced decision that went from the POTUS to the Department of Interior and eventually the USFWS. Wether you agree with it or not, the POTUS has appointed many industry insiders to these key positions and it affects policy. This is an example of how powerful the POTUS can be; in just one term it can completely reverse course of 40+ years of conservation minded policy, in this case prosecution of incidental take.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Critter said:


> As for killing birds, I have seen very little about what wind driver power generation does to them. Other than knock them out of the sky.


On the contrary. There has been much talk about wind turbines and bird kills. Trump, ever since his loss in a lawsuit over the erection of wind turbines that might "spoil the view" if erected near one of his planned golf course in Scotland, has been fighting wind power vigorously. Many studies have been done, one only need to do a quick google search to find them.
As recently as this election period Trump went on and on at one of his rallies about the bird deaths from wind turbines. 
The fact is yes, there are deaths from wind turbines, but the numbers are very very low in comparison to most other made made structures like buildings, power lines and poles, cell and beacon towers and automobiles.
Anyway, this is about industry knowingly using practises that result in the death of migratory birds when alternative AND better, more safe methods, could be used, and used solely to increase company profits.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Yep. Wind turbine fatalities are well studied and discussed. I believe such energy farms could be held liable under previous incidental take policy if they didn't try to mitigate the risk in good faith. 

Will be interesting to see how long it takes the Biden administration to reset the policy. I'm guessing at least a few years.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

A couple of thoughts and I will try my best to avoid my own political biases....

1. In substance, I suspect this action is more of a nothingburger than it would be if it occurred a couple years ago. I suspect that the Biden administration will reverse this particular act fairly quickly, as the action has stirred up a hornets nest of "concern" among many groups, most of which are more aligned to Biden than the "R"'s. I believe Trumps people know this too and are trying to score data points with the base for the next election where the liburls overturned so many of the Trump administrations policies. At such a late date in the Trump term, the ink won't even be dry and the agencies involved won't have their marching orders before it could be subject to change by Bidens team.

2. The usual partisan gamesmanship aside, the Migratory Bird Act has served both the resource and *hunters* very well over the years. (not to mention non game species) *Hunters * should be extremely circumspect in support of dustbinning or even tweaking the law.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

BPturkeys said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > "The Fish and Wildlife Service published its final environmental impact statement for regulations governing the killing of migratory birds." Sounds to me like they did it based off of information gathered by the scientists. So what's the problem?
> ...


Comparing Trump to Hitler, huh? You realize that's incredibly Offensive to Jews, right? You may not like him but it certainly isn't in the same ballpark as someone responsible for the murder of millions of people.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Catherder said:


> A couple of thoughts and I will try my best to avoid my own political biases....
> 
> 1. In substance, I suspect this action is more of a nothingburger than it would be if it occurred a couple years ago. I suspect that the Biden administration will reverse this particular act fairly quickly, as the action has stirred up a hornets nest of "concern" among many groups, most of which are more aligned to Biden than the "R"'s. I believe Trumps people know this too and are trying to score data points with the base for the next election where the liburls overturned so many of the Trump administrations policies. At such a late date in the Trump term, the ink won't even be dry and the agencies involved won't have their marching orders before it could be subject to change by Bidens team.
> 
> 2. The usual partisan gamesmanship aside, the Migratory Bird Act has served both the resource and *hunters* very well over the years. (not to mention non game species) *Hunters * should be extremely circumspect in support of dustbinning or even tweaking the law.


I tend to agree. I think the one caveat, from what I've read, is reinstating the old policy will take roughly a year (+)given the administrative hurdles it has to go through. That appears to be the timeframe the current rewriting took. The nothingburger is likely correct assuming no major incident happens in the interim in which large numbers of migratory birds are affected incidentally. That seems to be a fair bet.

I do think this is one realm in which hunters and non-consumptive stakeholders have similar allegiances. That only makes sense given hunters helped establish the law to conserve waterfowl.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I live in Evingston Wyoming. We have 2 windmill farms close to town. There's 2 bird people on staff at the Bigelow Bench windmills and 2 at the windmills along the Kemmererrerrer Highway. I know 2 of the bird people that work the wind farms here. They are involved in the annual Evanston Wyoming Christmas Bird Counts that I am the Coordinator of. The stories they can tell.

I'm not making this up, Evingston is in Wyoming.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Evingston:shock::shock: Now your talking (pronunciation) like your from Utah. Sends chills up my spine when I hear folks call it that.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Earmark of those permanently brain-damaged by the media, comparing a man who killed 6 million Jews to Trump. Do you listen to yourselves, and if you do...do you realize how stupid you sound?


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

BS!!! you want to talk about destruction of Migratory birds, speak no further then the Federal management program at the Bear River Bird Refuge but, you dont because you cant throw Trump under the bus for that one.. According to DU, the BRBR is the single most important migratory bird migration hub for the western united states and specifically for Canvasbacks and Pintails, yet the FEDS manage the BRBR PISS POOR. Most the units are dry for 200 days out of the year with some units dry for YEARS!

inadequate/or NO habitat to support hundreds of thousands of waterfowl during the most critical times of their lives is pretty devastating. AND those FEDS are employed specifically to manage the refuge properly........FIRE THEM ALL.

..............................................................


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

BPturkeys said:


> On the contrary. There has been much talk about wind turbines and bird kills. Trump, ever since his loss in a lawsuit over the erection of wind turbines that might "spoil the view" if erected near one of his planned golf course in Scotland, has been fighting wind power vigorously. Many studies have been done, one only need to do a quick google search to find them.
> As recently as this election period Trump went on and on at one of his rallies about the bird deaths from wind turbines.
> The fact is yes, there are deaths from wind turbines, but the numbers are very very low in comparison to most other made made structures like buildings, power lines and poles, cell and beacon towers and automobiles.
> Anyway, this is about industry knowingly using practises that result in the death of migratory birds when alternative AND better, more safe methods, could be used, and used solely to increase company profits.


Nope. According to Trump, wind turbines cause cancer:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ent-donald-trump-claim-blown-away/3352175002/


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

paddler said:


> BPturkeys said:
> 
> 
> > On the contrary. There has been much talk about wind turbines and bird kills. Trump, ever since his loss in a lawsuit over the erection of wind turbines that might "spoil the view" if erected near one of his planned golf course in Scotland, has been fighting wind power vigorously. Many studies have been done, one only need to do a quick google search to find them.
> ...


Funny thing is though, you'd believe it if Biden said it!

Hell, everything causes cancer dude, picking your nose causes cancer.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goosefreak said:


> Hell, everything causes cancer dude, picking your nose causes cancer.


True fact: Up until about 120 years ago everyone who ever ate a carrot died.

-DallanC


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Didn't have any of those topics on my bingo card.

His reference to Hitler was oblique in comparison but still off the mark. That card is getting overused this year.

No wonder ducks migrate away from us. One visit to this thread would warrant a suicide run into Ivanpahs solar flux.






IBTL


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

DallanC said:


> True fact: Up until about 120 years ago everyone who ever ate a carrot died.
> 
> -DallanC


I'm guessing that even today this is true. Everyone who has ever eaten a carrot will still die. :mrgreen:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

A Utah coal-fired power plant put huge loudspeakers around their big fly ash settling ponds. They would play a recording of a dog barking, like a German Shepard, to keep the migratory birds and waterfowl from landing in the toxic soup. The recording was irritating, super loud and you could here it all over the plant. After awhile the birds kinda got use to it. During one spring overhaul I seen hundreds of Willets rocking to the barking....before they tipped over along the bank.

The whole matter was sad. I offered, at a small fee, a recording of my Mallard hail call. I'm sure it would keep migratory birds off the poison pond for eternity.....which is how long the polluted ground and polluted ground water will be there if they don't rescind the new Trump Administration rules for fly ash ponds.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

wyogoob said:


> A Utah coal-fired power plant put huge loudspeakers around their big fly ash settling ponds. They would play a recording of a dog barking, like a German Shepard, to keep the migratory birds and waterfowl from landing in the toxic soup. The recording was irritating, super loud and you could here it all over the plant. After awhile the birds kinda got use to it. During one spring overhaul I seen hundreds of Willets rocking to the barking....before they tipped over along the bank.
> 
> The whole matter was sad. I offered, at a small fee, a recording of my Mallard hail call. I'm sure it would keep migratory birds off the poison pond for eternity.....which is how long the polluted ground and polluted ground water will be there if they don't rescind the new Trump Administration rules for fly ash ponds.


Surprised they sent the flyash out to a pond. Very important ingredient in the footing and foundation of a home...

And, to purposefully hi-jack the thread, when will (or where is) the annual "As They Lay" thread start?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> And, to purposefully hi-jack the thread, when will (or where is) the annual "As They Lay" thread start?


I'm trying to scrub that memory out of my brain... 3.5 hours to go 1200ft... DOWN HILL. I have a picture, it only brings back memory of the nightmare.

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Critter said:


> As for killing birds, I have seen very little about what wind driver power generation does to them. Other than knock them out of the sky.


How about cooking them in midflight like what happens at the solar farms at the NV/CA state line? Can't make everyone happy.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> Surprised they sent the flyash out to a pond. Very important ingredient in the footing and foundation of a home...
> 
> And, to purposefully hi-jack the thread, when will (or where is) the annual "As They Lay" thread start?


Ha

No, they can't use fly ash anymore for concrete or road work without meeting certain standards. Too many toxins, pollutants especially heavy metals. Coal fly ash goes to settling ponds in WY and UT. Of all the coal-fired power plants I worked as an asset and code inspector across the USA the only two that marketed fly ash after 2000 were in Nevada and neither of them do it anymore.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> How about cooking them in midflight like what happens at the solar farms at the NV/CA state line? Can't make everyone happy.


Yeah, some of those solar panel farms are humongous. Have you seen the one north of Randolph UT?

Typically the wind farms have bird people on staff. I personally know a couple of them that work at the Evingston windmills in the southwestern Wyoming part of Utah. They patrol the turbines, monitor, and record bird kills. The get a few birds, big and small, more than I would have thought. I think those records are available to the public.

I hunt deer, elk, antelope and sage grouse out on one of the wind farms east of town. The woosh, woosh, woosh, sound of the blades turning can be annoying.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

wyogoob said:


> Ha
> 
> No, they can't use fly ash anymore for concrete or road work without meeting certain standards. Too many toxins, pollutants especially heavy metals. Coal fly ash goes to settling ponds in WY and UT. Of all the coal-fired power plants I worked as an asset and code inspector across the USA the only two that marketed fly ash after 2000 were in Nevada and neither of them do it anymore.


Usually it's the bottom ash that is the real dirty stuff, followed by economizer ash. Flyash from the plant I work at has an "aka" of silica flour and is still used for stuff. No ash settling ponds.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> Usually it's the bottom ash that is the real dirty stuff, followed by economizer ash. Flyash from the plant I work at has an "aka" of silica flour and is still used for stuff. No ash settling ponds.


Sort of. The ash in the economizer is from the same burners, same coal, as the bottom ash. Economizer ash is in the thermal circuit longer so it will be finer, will have combusted more. If the coal has 1,000 ppm of cadmium (for example) in it the fly ash will have the same 1,000 ppm (given none is going out the stack) whether it's in the bottom or the top of the furnace. Some designs put all, or some of, economizer ash back into the furnace or firebox.

A trash burner or wood burner is different. No nasty dinosaur turds in trash or wood.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

If it's a dry bottom ash the ash gets trucked out and ends up in a storage yard. The fly ash will have water sprayed on it so the wind doesn't blow it all over minimizing 2-headed cows and pronghorn antelope with wings.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I should be careful what I say, I retired 3 1/2 years ago. The Trump Administration has thrown the fly ash rule book away in that period of time. They could be using fly ash in toothpaste now for all I know.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

This is my favorite thread.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

wyogoob said:


> I should be careful what I say, I retired 3 1/2 years ago. The Trump Administration has thrown the fly ash rule book away in that period of time. They could be using fly ash in toothpaste now for all I know.


https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pavement/r...sh use in concrete,Benefits to Fresh Concrete.

Coal quality and optimized combustion matters when it comes to the by product that is discarded.

As I said, some flyash is trucked off in dry bulk trailers separate from what is disposed of at the coal fired plant I currently work at, at least until it shuts down in a couple of years. After that, I may move to Evingston, WY where the air is clear and water is clean because of wind turbine generation.

But, I believe you anyway.

My favorite thread is the 'As It Lay Thread'. I have an elk pic to post my daughter shot last weekend.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pavement/recycling/fach03.cfm#:~:text=Fly%20ash%20use%20in%20concrete,Benefits%20to%20Fresh%20Concrete.
> 
> Coal quality and optimized combustion matters when it comes to the by product that is discarded.
> 
> ...


 Sounds good. Evingston Wyoming is one of the nicest towns in Utah.
.


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