# Question about an AR



## BerryNut (Dec 29, 2008)

So I have hunted for a little while and have got my gun collection up quite a bit with shot guns, and hunting rifles. I am looking to get a semi auto .223. My buddy has a Stag and also a bushmaster. I am currently looking at the Colt as well. I went to one gun store in Murray, wont say the name, but they treated me like I was an idiot for walking in their store and asked them a question. SO, just hoping to get some advice, opinions etc. from fellow forum members who are familiar with these types of firearms. I am looking for a reliable, gun that will last a while without any problems, with proper care. but not looking to spend some 2k for it either. Any info is greatly appreciated.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I like my Bushmaster, but have not had experience with alot of others.

Try this link http://www.gun-forums.com/want-buy-ar-15-read-first-t1369.html?s=a7548b3299a5f23430f4224ae968d31f&

or this one http://www.ar15.com/forums/

Good luck.


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## hyperduc (Sep 18, 2009)

There really isn't a whole lot of differences in quality or reliability in the current lot of AR's.

There are however differences in the upgrades that come with some of the higher end brands, free floated forearms, machined receivers, adjustable gas blocks, folding sight, upgraded stocks, etc. Those are the differences that are going to push the cost up quickly. 

A good brand in your price range would be something like a Rock River, Armalite, Colt ort Smith and Wesson. There will be small differences between the brands, but neither is significantly better than the other.

If your looking for a good rig under 2K, look at the Robinson Arms XCR. I really love mine and the differences between an AR and an XCR are night and day. Much easier to clean and many high end features right out of the box.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I have been looking at a few of these myself and I think for the money Rockriver makes some nice AR's. I am interested in the Rock River Elite CAR A4, looks to be everything I need out of an AR15...Good luck


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

I have a Rock River Tactical Entry. Works well.  Try Gallensons . Good prices and nice guys. Impact............never again. :twisted:


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

+1 on the Rock Rivers. I own a RR National Match A4 and it routinely shoots under 1 MOA with good ammo. They are affordable too. I paid a little over $700 brand new for mine 6 months ago.

As far as the gun store in Murray you are referring to, if it is the one I am thinking of where you can _get some_ guns and accessories, I think it is actually in Midvale, and they are over-priced in addition to being surly. Spend your money elsewhere. I like Gallensons, but I also like Gunnies in Orem.


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## BerryNut (Dec 29, 2008)

Wow, thanks for all the good info. I like the RR, but heard some things about the quality going down the last year or so, which made me look at something else, and was told since colt has the gov contract that they are a good one to go with. I live in Orem and have never been to Gunnies, may have to go pay them a visit. Thanks again for the help.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

mm73 said:


> As far as the gun store in Murray you are referring to, if it is the one I am thinking of where you can _get some_ guns and accessories, I think it is actually in Midvale, and they are over-priced in addition to being surly.


I was about to say Midvale also; I too had a similar experience, downright pizzpoor service there. A friend of mine who is a very serious collector speaks very highly or Rock River and only deals with Impact, but I must say that I have not ever been there myself.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I used to own a CMMG and was very impressed with the quality and the value. I paid substantially less for an M4 configuration than I would have with other brands.
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1

Currently I own a Remington R-15 and it is pretty cool (even though I cant figure out how to shoot the darn thing) But the Remington is just a Bushmaster with a different badge on it.
http://www.galleryofguns.com/Genie/Defa ... =No+Sights

I have been told that Rock River Arms is the shizzle and that I should consider buying one next go around by several people. But I have also been considering a Les Baer Custom just because I like to break the mold of what everyone else shoots
http://www.galleryofguns.com/Genie/Defa ... ue&sit=All

You may also want to consider what type of AR you want and for what application(s) you are using it for (hunting, tactical, target, etc) And also weigh the benefits / cost of buying a gas operated vs a gas/piston operated AR. I am no expert on which is better in that boat, but I am sure someone can weigh in on that topic.

PS: I cant stand this store that is being spoken of by Sams Club in Midvale/Murray. They act like it is such a privilege to even take the time to look at you. Its a wonder that anyone even goes there anymore. I think that is the place to go if you have never looked at a gun and want to be ill-advised, and then ripped off, all the while thinking that maybe I should be a gun wielding fanatic like these guys. GSG&A is the reason uneducated people fear guns, they make all gun owners look like doomsdayist fundamentalists waiting for the rapture when all the zombies are out eating flesh...... Ok, off my high horse -O\__-


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

Why won't you guys just say the name of this shiddy Midvale store? If they suck they suck, no need to hide it from anyone. Even better if you tell us so we know not to go there. Poor service needs to be revealed and spread around.

As far as ARs go, Yeah....um I wish I had one too. :lol:

But I do hear the heavy barreled models are worth the extra weight for what you get with the accuracy.

If you wan't to see some good detailed reviews, check out the youtube channel called "Nutnfancy" if you haven't already seen his videos. The vids can be long but very informative.

Here is a review of the newer ruger sr-556 AR, it is a piston model. http://www.youtube.com/user/nutnfancy#p ... xBBn88PfJg


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## BerryNut (Dec 29, 2008)

the name has already been mentioned. I figure if someone had similar experience there they would know who I was talking about, and maybe it was just a bad day when I went there, so no sense in taking business away from them by bad word of mouth. There is more than one gun store in the Murray Midvale area and so if people want to continue shopping at their respective places great. From the sound of it I am not the only person who had a bad experience, so Get Some Guns and Ammo, there ya go. I would not go back there unless they were giving guns away. Went to Gunnies today and had a better experience. I will try Impact as there have been a few good reports about them.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

At first I was not the biggest fan of Impact (Ogden store) but in the last 2 years I've gotten good service when I go in there. 

My Armalite came from there, got a great deal on mine before the election. While I love it, it may not be for everyone. I wanted one to shoot yotes and other varmints with so I have the 20" barrel flat-top A2 model. Its accuracy is on par with any AR I ever saw or shot. I get cloverleaf groups at 100 yds. Best of all mine absolutely devours the cheap Wolf ammo that a lot of them won’t cycle. :mrgreen: 

As said in another thread piston driven AR’s were a fix for a non-existent problem, My family has numerous AR’s and don’t have many problems with them functioning, I’d never spend the $ for a piston model, IMO they are all hype. :shock: 

I was in there on Presidents Day and they had the same rifle I have for, (if memory serves me) $1100, they also had several models for under $1300 and under so 2K seems **** high to me for an AR. Save you money and get some ammo with it. 8)


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

Yes, the gear reviewer I was talking about, "Nutnfancy" usually never shoots piston models. He says they are a lot of hype too. I am thinking about getting an AR this summer and have researched on the piston vs Direct Impingement models. Any choice would seem good, but if you want to save money and still have a very nice rifle, go with a Direct Impingement model.


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

Mojo1 said:


> As said in another thread piston driven AR's were a fix for a non-existent problem,


I agree with this as well. The AR is absolutely reliable as long as it is properly maintained. There is an article about this in this month's issue of Guns & Ammo that basically says the AR (M16/M4) is the longest serving rifle in US military history, and all the claims of unreliability are due to either people who have no direct experience with them, or people who are still dragging up the old issues the rifle had when it was first introduced in Vietnam, which were entirely the fault of the Defense department and not the rifle's design (troops were not trained on how to care for the rifle, were not issued cleaning kits, and were issued ammo that was way out of spec for the rifle). All those issues were fixed long ago, and numerous other improvements were made with the M16A2. Since then it has had a very good service record for reliability when it is properly cared for. If there were real problems it would not have been kept in service for as long as it has, nor would it be adopted by other countries (SAS, Israel, etc) and nearly every law enforcement agency in the US.

This is not to say that the piston models are not good rifles. But they are much more expensive, and you do lose some accuracy with the piston system because the barrel can no longer be free-floated and the piston tube interferes with the barrel's harmonics.


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## Gee LeDouche (Sep 21, 2007)

I have numerous AR's. If you dont want to spend a lot of money and want a good, quality firearm I highly suggest checking out AR15.com, but they will just tell you this.. "always remember the A, B, C and R's of AR's." It means Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt and Rockriver's. Each of these firearms have an excellent and proven reputation for being great weapons. Colts are going to be more expensive.. Rockriver makes a wonderful firearm, but they are generally a tad more costly than a Bushy or Armalite. I have had excellent luck with CMMG rifles. Some of the best built rifles for the money IMO. but If money was not a factor I would get a Robinson Arms XCR or a LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool). I own a couple CMMG's, Bushys, DPMS, and Colts. DPMS's are decent firearms. I honestly dont see much difference between the DPMS I have and one of my bushy's. I have heard that all Bushys come with a chrome lined barrel. anywho. which configuration are you looking at getting? any idea?



Gee


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

After years of maintaining an M-16 I decided to put a piston in my AR when we built it. I just quietly smile when I spend 1/3 the time cleaning after shooting a bit than my kids spend with there gas driven ARs. Cleaning is a necessary evil to me, not something I get a lot of enjoyment out of. I can think of better ways to spend time.

It's been worth it to me, to each their own.


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## Gee LeDouche (Sep 21, 2007)

Doc said:


> After years of maintaining an M-16 I decided to put a piston in my AR when we built it. I just quietly smile when I spend 1/3 the time cleaning after shooting a bit than my kids spend with there gas driven ARs. Cleaning is a necessary evil to me, not something I get a lot of enjoyment out of. I can think of better ways to spend time.
> 
> It's been worth it to me, to each their own.


You cant tell me that in some sick, twisted way,, you dont secretly giggle like a rabid hyena while cleaning up your gas system on your AR. :wink: I know I do..

The Gee


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

Well the secret is out..... :wink:


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## BerryNut (Dec 29, 2008)

First off, thats to everyone and their advice, it has been really insightful. I found a couple options and want to get some feedback. I got a coupon from Rock RIver for a LAR-15 Elite Operator that comes with two 30rd mags and my choice of a 1" Hi rise scope mount, or a 30mm scope mount, and also my choice of a rear sight assembly, all of it for 1060$. I am also looking at the Remington r-15 VTR only because I have a cabelas gift card that would take 150 $ off the price. I have had many of you say the RR is a good choice, so I am leaning that way but the VTR looks pretty sweet too. Also as far as the rear assembly on the RR I have a choice of the A2 Carry Handle, Dominator2 EOTech mount, Tactical Carry Handle, or the Stand alone rear sight. all of which is new to me. Any further help you can offer sis appreciated. Thanks again


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Go with a flat top. You can add the carry handle rear sight if you are so inclined, but the reverse is not so easy.


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

BerryNut said:


> First off, thats to everyone and their advice, it has been really insightful. I found a couple options and want to get some feedback. I got a coupon from Rock RIver for a LAR-15 Elite Operator that comes with two 30rd mags and my choice of a 1" Hi rise scope mount, or a 30mm scope mount, and also my choice of a rear sight assembly, all of it for 1060$. I am also looking at the Remington r-15 VTR only because I have a cabelas gift card that would take 150 $ off the price. I have had many of you say the RR is a good choice, so I am leaning that way but the VTR looks pretty sweet too. Also as far as the rear assembly on the RR I have a choice of the A2 Carry Handle, Dominator2 EOTech mount, Tactical Carry Handle, or the Stand alone rear sight. all of which is new to me. Any further help you can offer sis appreciated. Thanks again


It all depends on what your primary use for the rifle will be. That is the great beauty of the AR platform is its versatility, but the two choices you listed are configured for totally different purposes. Are you looking for a varmint / target rifle? Go with the R-15 then. A friend of mine has one and I have shot it quite a bit and have been very impressed. Most 3-shot groups @100 can be covered with a nickel (using hand loads). They are actually made by Bushmaster, BTW. Are you looking to do tactical shooting and 3-gun competition? Go with the RRA Elite Operator then. If you go that route then the attachments you decide on should also depend on what optics you plan to use, if any. The Tactical Carry Handle is great for co-witnessing an Aimpoint or similar red-dot sight but it is too high for Eotechs. The stand alone rear sight would be the most versatile for co-witnessing with different types of optics so that may be the safest choice. It is also the smallest and lightest if you simply want a BUIS, though a good flip-up would be the better choice. I have the A2 detachable carry handle for my RRA National Match, as well as the 30mm scope mount with a Millett DMS, and I love them both. I can swap between the two and the scope mount will return to within 1/2" of zero.


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## BerryNut (Dec 29, 2008)

I wont be doing any competitive shooting or the like, I will most likely be shooting for fun out the west side of UL and also shooting yotes and bunnies. As well as some pigs coming up this month. I want something that is reliable and will still kill varmints and let me have the ability to fend off zombies in case the world starts to come to an end.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

If you want something that will be well suited for everything, then you need to look for an "average" rifle. By that I mean one that will do a pretty good job on everything, but not specialized for any particular purpose. One that comes to mind is the Armalite M15A4. Even with the general purpose barrel, P-Dogs are in serious trouble out to 400 yards.
http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?i ... 2e58014822
Another make of the same configuration would serve just as well.


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

BerryNut said:


> I wont be doing any competitive shooting or the like, I will most likely be shooting for fun out the west side of UL and also shooting yotes and bunnies. As well as some pigs coming up this month. I want something that is reliable and will still kill varmints and let me have the ability to fend off zombies in case the world starts to come to an end.


Then I would get the M16 style instead of the M4 style, or even the Varmint / Target style. By that I mean get the standard 20" barrel, instead of the 16" carbine. To me, it is a more all-around rifle, with accuracy that is close to a target / varmint model, and still handy enough for close quarters, run and gun type of shooting as well. This is what our Marines have been using for urban warfare in Iraq as well as mountain warfare in Afghanistan. The carbines are great for close range shooting, but the .223 / 5.56 round loses too much velocity from the shorter barrel, and accuracy is not as good either. Like others have said, you should definitely get a flat top so you can mount a scope or some type of optics. You can always mount a detachable carry handle to it, but mounting a scope on top of a fixed carry handles is a poor proposition because it is so high that you can't get a good cheek weld without adding a raised cheek piece.


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## Wind In His Hair (Dec 31, 2009)

BerryNut said:


> Wow, thanks for all the good info. I like the RR, but heard some things about the quality going down the last year or so, which made me look at something else, and was told since colt has the gov contract that they are a good one to go with. I live in Orem and have never been to Gunnies, may have to go pay them a visit. Thanks again for the help.


Actually Colt doesn't have the military contract anymore. They lost the contract for the M16 to FN back in the early nineties, but they have been the exclusive contract for the M4 carbine for something like 15 years or so......until now. As of last year, Colt lost the rights to the M4 and now the military can choose any company they wish to build the M4 for them. Colt makes a great gun, but they've been not so great in the civilian market for a while now. It will be interesting to see if they change their tune any and start being friendly to the non-government types now that they don't have that cushy contract to wave in front of everybody.


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## BerryNut (Dec 29, 2008)

Thanks for the heads up on Colt, very interesting. To all of you who weighed in, thanks again for your support. My quest for a new AR continues, everytime I think I've made up my mind, I go and change it again, I was close to getting an R-15, then I go back to a RR in an 18 in barrel for a more all around gun, then it goes back and forth while the guy at the gun counter tries and sells me on another gun. this is worse than buying a new truck. To be continued.....


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Please permit a "pardon my ignorance" question. It seems that "scary black guns" are the rage lately. I know people who have never owned a gun before going out and buying an AR just because Obama was elected. Are most of these "scary black guns" on the civilian market chambered for 223 Rem. or 5.56 Nato? I have read articles suggesting that there are subtle but significant differences. Can they be used safely interchangablly?


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

campfire said:


> Are most of these "scary black guns" on the civilian market chambered for 223 Rem. or 5.56 Nato? I have read articles suggesting that there are subtle but significant differences. Can they be used safely interchangablly?


Most AR-15 variants are chambered for 5.56. Rifles chambered for 5.56 can safely shoot .223 ammo, but the reverse is not always true. The reason has to do with the fact that mil-spec 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures than civilian .223. The 5.56 brass has thicker walls to withstand these higher pressures than .223 brass. Here is a good description of the differences between 5.56 and .223: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_ ... _Remington


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not sure of the specifics, but I think it goes something like this. You can shoot 223 in any 5.56, but not necessarily the other way. The 223 has (I think) a shorter throat and is loaded to lower pressures. The 5.56 has a longer throat and faster twist and is loaded to higher pressure for those heavier SS109 loads. The best part is that a lot of the "civilian" black rifles have a Wilde chamber that is sort of a compromise between the 5.56 and 223. You can shoot either cartridge in most modern AR15s.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Thanks guys! Good information and consistant with articles that I have read. Anyway, I thought it would be a good question to ask before purchasing one, namly "What is it's chambering?"


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Loke said:


> One that comes to mind is the Armalite M15A4. Even with the general purpose barrel, P-Dogs are in serious trouble out to 400 yards.
> http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?i ... 2e58014822


That's my baby right there, she's a shooter for sure.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

The first groups that I shot with mine averaged 3/4 inch at 100 yards with Coyote remanufactured ammunition. Handloads do even better. So much for their 1.5-2 MOA guarantee.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

I think that basically every AR15 currently made uses the NATO chamber. This also includes the Ruger Mini 14. As mentioned, there are slight variations of this chamber, like the Wylde that is available in some Rock River models, but any of them should shoot actual 5.56 M-193 or M855/SS-109 ball ammo.



> The reason has to do with the fact that mil-spec 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures than civilian .223.


TRUE - - 5.56 is loaded to higher pressure than SAAMI-spec .223 Rem. 


> The 5.56 brass has thicker walls to withstand these higher pressures than .223 brass.


FALSE - Lake City Military brass (LC headstamp) has the same basic case capacity as Winchester or Remington commercial .223 Rem brass. Federal FC .223-headstamped brass had thicker walls than the military, but a thinner web. Some older lots of FC .223 could be problematical to load several times and had less capacity. This myth came from military .30-06 & .7.62 cases and is perpetuated in some reloading manuals.

Other than the pressure it is loaded to, the main difference between .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO is the throat/leade area of the NATO chamber is longer to better fit the long military bullet. .223-spec chambers are shorter in this area. This is why .223 Rem will not cause excess pressure when shot in a NATO chamber, but the reverse is not true.



> The carbines are great for close range shooting, but the .223 / 5.56 round loses too much velocity from the shorter barrel..


.
TRUE BUT... - In my chronographing, I've found that velocity loss averages around 200 fps going from a 20" to a 16" barrel, for a loss of around 50 fps per inch.

Using factory 55-gr ammo that goes 3140 fps from a 20" barrel AR and comparing it to the same ammo going 2940 fps from a 16" barrel - both zeroed at 200 yards (+2.5" scope height) we find the following difference in drop using the Oehler Ballistic Explorer:
100 YARDS = 16" is 0.35" higher (+1.44")
250 YARDS = 16" is 0.53" lower (-3.30")
300 YARDS = 16" is 1.36" lower (-8.72")
400 YARDS - 16" is 4.17" lower (-27.48")

So if you intend to use your AR only out to about the common 250-300 yard range - and most bunny shooting and called-in 'yotes are much closer yet - then the drop DIFFERENCE is not that big of a deal. Both certainly start to drop a fair amount approaching 300 yards. If you gotta reach out to the long ranges, go with a 20" - although I know people who use a accurate 16" for 400 yard prairie dogs.


> ...and accuracy is not as good either


.
FALSE - the short barrels are often _more_ accurate - likely because they are stiffer. I have seen 1/2 MOA accuracy out of my 16" that made me a believer. The reason behind this commonly voice "truism" is that using iron sights, you have a shorter sight radius. With a scoped rifle, this doesn't apply. So don't think that a 20" barrel will make you any more accurate than a 16" _scoped_ AR15. Barrel length needs to be decided on for other reasons that apply more.
Hey, I know military people that actually qualified _higher_ with the short M4 than the A2. Maybe it was because they were newer and the barrel was less shot, who knows?

With all that over with, here is something to think about:
One thing that I really like about Rock River is that you can pretty much order the configuration of AR that fits your needs. I know a lot of people buy them off the shelf at the dealer and have to settle for the configuration that the dealer has on the shelf - which is usually a bit generic - but you can go through a dealer and pick out the features _you_ want on YOUR AR and have him order it that way from Rock River. For example, you can order most of the features found on the Coyote version on a regular A4 but not get the expensive Vortex flash hider, the same stock, or the quirky winter trigger guard and save some money. So I think it pays to surf their site and check out the models and options.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=213
Yeah, you will have a wait, but when it finally arrives, it will have the features you want.

One last thing here - I have come to prefer the MID-LENGTH gas system version if you go with a 16" barrel AR15. Port pressures are lower so it is easier on the components, besides being a little less fussy than the standard Carbine-length gas system. Prices are the same.


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