# 1036 yard elk kill



## HuntinFoolUtah (Jan 11, 2013)

He hits this bull two times! Both the shots are lethal, but the second dropped him!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks! Weird he closed his eyes for the shot though...


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

1296 yards is pretty nice too


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## Broadside_Shot (Feb 22, 2010)

When the actual "Fame" and "Look How Good I Am" means more than any other part of the hunt, then a person can justify taking a 1036 or a 1296 yard shot.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Zac a bad A, there's no debating that. Super dedicated guy.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bah, thats easy now... heck even kids are shooting further:

+1370 yards.





Be interesting to see what yardage people are shooting in 15 years as technology grows. 200 yard bow shots, 500 yard ML shots... 2000 yard rifle shots.

-DallanC


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

fun.... i guess


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Be interesting to see what yardage people are shooting in 15 years as technology grows. 200 yard bow shots...
> 
> -DallanC


5. that's what I try for.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I like to smell the fear in their sweat when I pull the trigger!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> Bah, thats easy now... heck even kids are shooting further:
> 
> +1370 yards.
> 
> ...


That episode was neat. I DVR Long Range Pursuit (Gunwerks show). He does a lot with his kids. People can diss long range as being "easy", but watch that show and look how deep in the country they go for these monsters. He and his two boys go and pack out big ol bulls with just the three of them. The shots aren't always long either.

They already have the 500+ yard ML down:


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## 12many (Apr 14, 2008)

The best shots are the ones that the arrow never leaves the bow.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> They already have the 500+ yard ML down:


My preferred weapon of choice is a Muzzleloader. I hate to bring it up but there is a group of folk out there making incredible improvements to muzzleloaders and getting staggering results, well beyond 500 yards. These modifications are to the point the guns now require FFL paperwork. Thats about all I'm going to say on it.

-DallanC


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

Imagine how excited he would get if he actually got close and in on them. That's what makes chasing elk exciting! Nice "snipe-ing" though!


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## inbowrange (Sep 11, 2007)

Does anyone really call that hunting?? I guess no one will be satisfied until your shooting animals from your couch using satellites. If your gonna hunt then hunt and if your gonna shoot across canyons just go out in the desert and shoot as far as you want, and let us hunters actually hunt the animals!


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I've seen the same type of excitement displayed by skybusters bringing down a duck at 80 yards.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Is that guy the Gangsta Hunta?

Maybe those long range shots are easy....if that clown can hit an elk at over 1000 yards with both eyes closed and flinching like a school girl about to be kissed for the first time, I'm going to start lobbing Hail Marys out to 1300.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Huntinfool, are you friends with or hunting buddies with Zac?


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

DallanC said:


> My preferred weapon of choice is a Muzzleloader. I hate to bring it up but there is a group of folk out there making incredible improvements to muzzleloaders and getting staggering results, well beyond 500 yards. These modifications are to the point the guns now require FFL paperwork. Thats about all I'm going to say on it.
> 
> -DallanC


I don't know the guy's name, but I was talking to someone at the range who builds/tests ML and they regularly hit 700+ yard targets. I was pretty impressed to say the least because I had no idea they were hitting those kind of distances.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Watch the Gangsta Hunta gut shoot a nice buck at 580 yards in his Colorado Muley video.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

inbowrange said:


> Does anyone really call that hunting?? I guess no one will be satisfied until your shooting animals from your couch using satellites. If your gonna hunt then hunt and if your gonna shoot across canyons just go out in the desert and shoot as far as you want, and let us hunters actually hunt the animals!


When you are 3-4 miles into the back country and find the animal and kill it yourself it is hunting. Ironically, 90% of the bow hunters I speak with almost never hunt more than a mile or so from the nearest road, and most hunt the canyons closest to the city. I do have a few friends who are in the 10% who know where I hunt because I know they are willing to work hard getting an animal.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> My preferred weapon of choice is a Muzzleloader. I hate to bring it up but there is a group of folk out there making incredible improvements to muzzleloaders and getting staggering results, well beyond 500 yards. These modifications are to the point the guns now require FFL paperwork. Thats about all I'm going to say on it.
> 
> -DallanC


It is my preferred weapon as well. All I will say on it, is that I am glad we have scope restrictions here in Utah. I love LR, but I like the traditions of muzzleloading to stay that way...


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

inbowrange said:


> Does anyone really call that hunting?? I guess no one will be satisfied until your shooting animals from your couch using satellites. If your gonna hunt then hunt and if your gonna shoot across canyons just go out in the desert and shoot as far as you want, and let us hunters actually hunt the animals!


I call it hunting just as much as bowhunting from a treestand. Before anyone gets mad, I'm an avid treestand hunter. All my scouting is done, I know where the animals are going to be and I sit and wait. I'm not really hunting, I'm just sitting there, waiting. Same as sitting on a perch with a longrange gun. All my scouting is done, I know where the animals are going to be so I just sit and wait.
It is, however, infinitely easier to shoot an animal with a rifle as soon as you see it. With a bow, if you see an animal, your hunt is just beginning.
I guess my point is, I don't feel like you can diss on longrange hunting without including treestand hunters.
This is just my opinion and I didn't throw this out there to start anything bad.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

I missed a Bull like that once,by 1022 yards, **** Recurves. If ya can't smell don't shoot em


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> It is my preferred weapon as well. All I will say on it, is that I am glad we have scope restrictions here in Utah. I love LR, but I like the traditions of muzzleloading to stay that way...


I agree. My son has a muzzleloader that doesn't even look like a muzzleloader.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

I wish we would go back to side hammer muzzleloaders, I had more fun hunting with mine than anything else. I find myself becoming a geezer, and this crap makes me more so. I am so disapointed that this "hunting" has become what people aspire to do. My son passed hunters safety this year. At 9 his shotgun choices were pretty limited. He is rocking mossberg bantam. I watched the fun he was having and dumped my fancy semi auto for a return to my old 870. Other than boots, I find myself retreating back to "old school" hunting gear. I never changed from the 06' dad (santa) got me when I was 16. I guess I am a fuddy duddy(i'm 40), but this possee driven, designer camo, computer assisted shooting, go pro video side of my passion makes me more than a little sad. If your going to kill something, you owe it to the animal to kill them quick and clean. At 1000 yards you are increasing the chance of a miss, or worse a wound. The gun will do it sure, but why are we so enamored with that? Heres an idea, come hunt elk with us timber hunters. Come hunt the forest where if your lucky you might get a 50 yrd shot. Come get in there. COme see the squirells barking at you. Come SMELL the bulls. Come get busted by cows. In short, PLEASE quit. Yup, PLEASE QUIT. Quit with the big dick contest that hunting is becoming. I admit it, your badder than me, your shlong is longer, your chick is hotter, your truck is nicer, your richer, taller, more muscular. Now can we hunt. Can we NOT be GOLF. YOUR KILLING STUFF, GET SOME CLASS. GET SOME RESPECT!! Lastly, if I see another flat brimmed hat I might go postal.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

hossblur said:


> I wish we would go back to side hammer muzzleloaders, I had more fun hunting with mine than anything else. I find myself becoming a geezer, and this crap makes me more so. I am so disapointed that this "hunting" has become what people aspire to do. My son passed hunters safety this year. At 9 his shotgun choices were pretty limited. He is rocking mossberg bantam. I watched the fun he was having and dumped my fancy semi auto for a return to my old 870. Other than boots, I find myself retreating back to "old school" hunting gear. I never changed from the 06' dad (santa) got me when I was 16. I guess I am a fuddy duddy(i'm 40), but this possee driven, designer camo, computer assisted shooting, go pro video side of my passion makes me more than a little sad. If your going to kill something, you owe it to the animal to kill them quick and clean. At 1000 yards you are increasing the chance of a miss, or worse a wound. The gun will do it sure, but why are we so enamored with that? Heres an idea, come hunt elk with us timber hunters. Come hunt the forest where if your lucky you might get a 50 yrd shot. Come get in there. COme see the squirells barking at you. Come SMELL the bulls. Come get busted by cows. In short, PLEASE quit. Yup, PLEASE QUIT. Quit with the big dick contest that hunting is becoming. I admit it, your badder than me, your shlong is longer, your chick is hotter, your truck is nicer, your richer, taller, more muscular. Now can we hunt. Can we NOT be GOLF. YOUR KILLING STUFF, GET SOME CLASS. GET SOME RESPECT!! Lastly, if I see another flat brimmed hat I might go postal.


I'll agree with most of that.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

30-06-hunter said:


> When you are 3-4 miles into the back country and find the animal and kill it yourself it is hunting. Ironically, 90% of the bow hunters I speak with almost never hunt more than a mile or so from the nearest road, and most hunt the canyons closest to the city. I do have a few friends who are in the 10% who know where I hunt because I know they are willing to work hard getting an animal.


hmmm.....ummmm.....what?

what are you saying? Are you claiming that you, and a couple other 10%ers hike 3-4 miles into the backcountry and shoot long range -- and that makes you a great hunter? And that the other 90%ers (me included) never get more than a mile away from a road? And we suck because of that? And we bow hunt?

This is a stupid thread.

I can cast my fly rod 120' and land it inside a saucer. But that doesn't mean **** if the fish won't bite!!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

hossblur said:


> I wish we would go back to side hammer muzzleloaders,


Why, Germany had inline muzzleloaders as early as 1734... that predates your good ole sidelock hawkin by 100 years. It was a simplier casting back then.

/shrug

-DallanC


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

nice shot. I could care less on what other people think is real hunting and what is not, to each their own. nice shot thanks for sharing


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

I think Fred Bear said it best.....

I really find it ironic, how some dudes no matter which side of the isle you might be on......look down so much at there fellow hunter...

I guess I could give two ****s less about what someone else is doing... 

I dont care if they have a Swarovski or a Bushnell, If they shoot a 30-30 or a 338 Lapua, if they recurve in a flannel or use a mathews in Sitka, I really dont care, dont care if they hunt from the truck, or from 10,000 ft with a bivy sack, I dont care if they were a flat brim hat or an old trucker cap atop there head......some of you worry way to much about the other guy......lol you guys need to spend less time on the internet and more time in the woods my hell 8)


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I think this long range hunting looks like fun- kind of like a real life video game but I do have a few questions or concerns if someone who's into it can help me out before I get started.

1st) Can I get mad at people for camping closer than 3/4 mile from my location and inside of my shooting zone ?
2nd) Do I have the right to get upset with someone taking a 500 yard shot at the same buck/bull that was one canyon closer than the spot I was set up to shoot from?
They did shoot the buck out from under me, right? 
or does that not count if they didn't see me setting up for a shot 1,000 yards behind them?
Man, it's going to be hard to do the right thing without pissing someone off.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

Nothing gets people on this forum as riled up as either (a) talk about testicles and minerals, or (b) long range hunting. It seems to me that he sort of addresses the disdaining and judgmental crowd right at the beginning of his video: Don't watch this if you're pi**ed off by rap music, or long range shooting, or celebration. Ha ... the real question maybe is why it's so important to have such a "produced" video of your hunt in the first place. Study the mirror a lot?


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

SLCHunter said:


> Nothing gets people on this forum as riled up as either (a) talk about testicles and minerals, or (b) long range hunting. It seems to me that he sort of addresses the disdaining and judgmental crowd right at the beginning of his video: Don't watch this if you're pi**ed off by rap music, or long range shooting, or celebration. Ha ... the real question maybe is why it's so important to have such a "produced" video of your hunt in the first place. Study the mirror a lot?


Amazing they never get a bad hit. Yet hunters frequently find wounded or dead animals. I wonder how that happens?

Now I would support shipping them out to snipe ISSL and wouldn't care if they only clipped them.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

SLCHunter said:


> Nothing gets people on this forum as riled up as either (a) talk about testicles and minerals, or (b) long range hunting. It seems to me that he sort of addresses the disdaining and judgmental crowd right at the beginning of his video: Don't watch this if you're pi**ed off by rap music, or long range shooting, or celebration. Ha ... the real question maybe is why it's so important to have such a "produced" video of your hunt in the first place. Study the mirror a lot?


Its not that there was rap music, it is that it was bad "rap" music.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Theres good rap music?


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Is this just a high fence operation or where does one hunt without a thread of orange on including all of his possee? Just not familiar with any such place, I thought you had to at least have an orange hat on.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Huge29 said:


> Is this just a high fence operation or where does one hunt without a thread of orange on including all of his possee? Just not familiar with any such place, I thought you had to at least have an orange hat on.


Alaska , Idaho, Nevada, California, New Mexico and Oregon are a few states that I've hunted that don't require hunter orange. As always, regardless of the laws, it's a good idea to wear some kind of high-vis during the rifle season.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

longbow said:


> Alaska , Idaho, Nevada, California, New Mexico and Oregon are a few states that I've hunted that don't require hunter orange. As always, regardless of the laws, it's a good idea to wear some kind of high-vis during the rifle season.


but at such close ranges, camo is a must! I wonder what kind of scent killer he uses as well? It's gotta be good stuff to close the distance to within 1500 yards.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

30-06-hunter said:


> When you are 3-4 miles into the back country and find the animal and kill it yourself it is hunting. Ironically, 90% of the bow hunters I speak with almost never hunt more than a mile or so from the nearest road, and most hunt the canyons closest to the city. I do have a few friends who are in the 10% who know where I hunt because I know they are willing to work hard getting an animal.


Oh my hell, the hypocrisy here is killin me. 99.8% of hunters don't have 'disability' waivers so they can hunt a couple weeks before everybody else, but you do Mr 30-06. You have such an advantage over everyone else it isn't even funny and yet you puff out your chest and brag without mentioning that little fact. Get off your freakin high horse and come back to earth. And may I add that if you are able to hike 3-4 miles into the back country and take an animal then you are not disabled. I don't care what the letter of the law says, its meaning has been violated. I wasn't going to call you out on your thread a couple months ago but your blatant hubris requires a rebuttal.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> Amazing they never get a bad hit. Yet hunters frequently find wounded or dead animals. I wonder how that happens?
> 
> Now I would support shipping them out to snipe ISSL and wouldn't care if they only clipped them.


I'd say that with the right training and equipment, a prone, well prepared 700 yard shot is a higher percentage shot than three guys flinging away at a running herd from 80 yards. I've seen the latter a couple of times, in my quite short career as a hunter. I'd say that the vast vast majority of wounded animals comes from such nonsensical behavior.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

hossblur said:


> Theres good rap music?


There is good hip hop, Jazz, country music, roots, rock, and reggae. Not to mention good blue grass versions of punk music. It is not the genre that defines music.

It is kind of the same with the hunting community as well, not everyone with a mic is an artist.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

I don't know why everyone gets upset about long range shots. In my opinion its not exactly hunting but that's my opinion. The tag doesn't say you have to be within x amount of yards to take game. So to each his own. 
The one thing I think is funny is guys who think it takes skills to make those shots. With the equipment they have now my 9 year old can make that shot! Hell anyone that can pull a trigger can make it. Now take your grandpas old model 70 out with iron sites and make that shot, then I'd be impressed.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

SLCHunter said:


> I'd say that with the right training and equipment, a prone, well prepared 700 yard shot is a higher percentage shot than three guys flinging away at a running herd from 80 yards.


I'd say that with the right training and equipment, a prone, well prepared 100 yard shot is a higher percentage shot than the 700 yard one taken by the same well trained, well prepared, prone shooting hunter. Compare apples to apples.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

mikevanwilder said:


> I don't know why everyone gets upset about long range shots. In my opinion its not exactly hunting but that's my opinion. The tag doesn't say you have to be within x amount of yards to take game. So to each his own.
> The one thing I think is funny is guys who think it takes skills to make those shots. With the equipment they have now my 9 year old can make that shot! Hell anyone that can pull a trigger can make it. Now take your grandpas old model 70 out with iron sites and make that shot, then I'd be impressed.


We shoot 600 with peep sights. Is that cool?

Everyone says it is soooo easy... You can make the shot on equipment and loads that someone took the time and skill to setup, if they are there telling you how. But if I give you $10,000 to go buy the equipment today, I bet you couldn't hit 1432 yards in the backcountry. (Ranges don't have the slope, different winds, etc...) I pick a random yardage because most people only know how to shoot by the hundred or 50, then guess the rest. Can't guess at that range.

It still takes a lot of range time. It also takes knowledge, which a lot of the clowns on the WWW are wrong about. Hitting a large object 1 time at 1k is different than hitting a 10x10 object at 1k, consistently.

If it were easy we wouldn't spend what we do training military snipers.


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

RandomElk16 said:


> We shoot 600 with peep sights. Is that cool?
> 
> Everyone says it is soooo easy... You can make the shot on equipment and loads that someone took the time and skill to setup, if they are there telling you how. But if I give you $10,000 to go buy the equipment today, I bet you couldn't hit 1432 yards in the backcountry. (Ranges don't have the slope, different winds, etc...) I pick a random yardage because most people only know how to shoot by the hundred or 50, then guess the rest. Can't guess at that range.
> 
> ...


so its not Hard. its just super expensive? and time consuming?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Skally said:


> so its not Hard. its just super expensive? and time consuming?


Yeah, that's what my comment said.....

I had a big post but I don't love getting in these threads. People don't understand, and that is ok.

I will say... maybe our definitions are different, but aren't things that are time consuming to learn considered NOT easy?


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

Its like shooting free throws. they aren't hard. but if you practice a lot you will be a lot better


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I've not got a problem with guys that are REALLY into the long range thing doing it. As was pointed out first thing in the video, everything about the rifle is custom for the long range stuff. Custom everything - barrel, trigger, scope, stock, and loads. And lots of practice. I think he said 300-400 rounds/year? It is clear from the grand assortment of this guy's videos, this is not something haphazard. And I'm good with that. I consider this every bit as much "hunting" as a spot and stock archer using a hand-made recurve bow and hand napped obsidian heads. 

The danger with the long range thing are the idiots that think they can drop $400 for a plastic stock rifle at Walmart and shoot at long distances. That is just stupid and dangerous. 

My thoughts with anyone's choice of hunting practices -
1. Must be legal
2. Hunter must KNOW the limits of their equipment
3. Hunter must KNOW their own limits with that equipment
4. Hunter must hunt within the limits of their own equipment and ability. 

Then I have no problem. My own limits as I hunt with my Dad's old 30-06 on a sporterized mauser action with a standard 3-9x40 scope, shooting factory loads, is I don't take any shot over 300 yards. I don't practice beyond that, and I don't shoot past that. And that works for me.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

Skally said:


> Its like shooting free throws. they aren't hard. but if you practice a lot you will be a lot better


Well, it's the same with "hunting": You have to spend a lot of time in the woods, scouting, knowing, smelling, walking. Only with that time spent you get the skills and knowledge to get within 50 yards of game. That, or luck.

But it's not "hard" to do that, like it'd be "hard" to get a Nobel Prize in chemistry. You just need to spend the time.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

RandomElk16 said:


> We shoot 600 with peep sights. Is that cool?
> 
> Everyone says it is soooo easy... You can make the shot on equipment and loads that someone took the time and skill to setup, if they are there telling you how. But if I give you $10,000 to go buy the equipment today, I bet you couldn't hit 1432 yards in the backcountry. (Ranges don't have the slope, different winds, etc...) I pick a random yardage because most people only know how to shoot by the hundred or 50, then guess the rest. Can't guess at that range.
> 
> ...





GaryFish said:


> I've not got a problem with guys that are REALLY into the long range thing doing it. As was pointed out first thing in the video, everything about the rifle is custom for the long range stuff. Custom everything - barrel, trigger, scope, stock, and loads. And lots of practice. I think he said 300-400 rounds/year? It is clear from the grand assortment of this guy's videos, this is not something haphazard. And I'm good with that. I consider this every bit as much "hunting" as a spot and stock archer using a hand-made recurve bow and hand napped obsidian heads.
> 
> The danger with the long range thing are the idiots that think they can drop $400 for a plastic stock rifle at Walmart and shoot at long distances. That is just stupid and dangerous.
> 
> ...


The 1296 yard elk video I posted is a neighbor and good friend who shoots competitively year round and has built several rifles using mostly Savage parts, I think he only has about $2100 total into his 300 including scope. He has taken several 1000+ yard elk and last year built a 260 that he guided a coworker to an 800+ yard kill with a 130 grain if memory serves. I have shot his 300 at targets a few times at 900+ yards and it's pretty exciting to actually see your hits that far out. I personally may not ever get into those kind of ranges hunting but do applaud those who are practiced enough to effectively do it.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> We shoot 600 with peep sights. Is that cool?
> 
> Everyone says it is soooo easy... You can make the shot on equipment and loads that someone took the time and skill to setup, if they are there telling you how. But if I give you $10,000 to go buy the equipment today, I bet you couldn't hit 1432 yards in the backcountry. (Ranges don't have the slope, different winds, etc...) I pick a random yardage because most people only know how to shoot by the hundred or 50, then guess the rest. Can't guess at that range.
> 
> ...


I guess I came off wrong with my comment and I apologize. Most guys in these so called long range videos and shows I've seen along with guys ive met in person just pay a lot of money for a setup and never do the actual work. 
And yes if you gave me 10k I could hit a target at 1432 yards and I would still have money left over for a burger or 2.
My gun is probably only about $1000 and my cousin probably 1500 and we have done the work,( bullet drop, wind drift, altitude, etc.) and have consently hit targets out to 1200+. Mind you this wasn't at no shooting range either. 
I'm not trying to discredit you or anyone who actually puts the work into learning the actual ballistics of there rifle and load. I just get annoyed with those who spend thousands and all they do is range a target and shoot and then claim they are long range shooter.
PS yes I'm impressed with a 600 yard peep site shot!


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

*Geeks*

This is where this discussion always goes. Sooner or later we get a balistics nerd and he throws down all his knowledge and we argue minute details. Heres the dirty little secret. That bull/buck that is out at 1000 yrds, 20 years ago got away with his life 70+% of the time because he wasn't shot at that distance and in stalking him either the hunter wasn't good, the wind changed, luck entered, etc, etc, etc. In order to have good herds we need those animals to escape. That is the fact we loose in this discussion. Yes it takes time and practice. It will take time and practice to fly a drone, but I am against them as well. I read guns and ammo, I read about advanced sighting systems. I read about smart projectiles. I used to read about drones. The simple fact is that WE are going to have to find a line, otherwise we will get to the 100% kill rate. If the prey animal doesn't know its being stalked, how does it escape? 
Yeah I GREATLY DISLIKE the "TROPHY" hunters of today. I hate the possee B.S.(yeah its different than hunting with a couple buddies). I HATE the fake celebrations, matching tatoos, "awesome" window stickers. BUT then I hate touchdown dances, dunk celebrations, etc. I was taught if you score, hand the ref the ball, try to pretend you've done it before, and plan on doing it again. Plus, if I was the lineman, or the dude that set the pick, I would bitch slap you. But I think we need to seperate the personalities from the issue. The issue is that technology is outpacing the sports ability to react to it. I personally believe that once you use artificial intellegence(wind meters, calculators, range finders, computers, etc) that seems like a logical place to draw that line.
I feel the same about music, which is why there can be no good hip hop, or for that matter electronica, or dance music, (issue for another day).


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

hossblur said:


> This is where this discussion always goes. Sooner or later we get a balistics nerd and he throws down all his knowledge and we argue minute details. Heres the dirty little secret. That bull/buck that is out at 1000 yrds, 20 years ago got away with his life 70+% of the time because he wasn't shot at that distance and in stalking him either the hunter wasn't good, the wind changed, luck entered, etc, etc, etc. In order to have good herds we need those animals to escape. That is the fact we loose in this discussion. Yes it takes time and practice. It will take time and practice to fly a drone, but I am against them as well. I read guns and ammo, I read about advanced sighting systems. I read about smart projectiles. I used to read about drones. The simple fact is that WE are going to have to find a line, otherwise we will get to the 100% kill rate. If the prey animal doesn't know its being stalked, how does it escape?
> Yeah I GREATLY DISLIKE the "TROPHY" hunters of today. I hate the possee B.S.(yeah its different than hunting with a couple buddies). I HATE the fake celebrations, matching tatoos, "awesome" window stickers. BUT then I hate touchdown dances, dunk celebrations, etc. I was taught if you score, hand the ref the ball, try to pretend you've done it before, and plan on doing it again. Plus, if I was the lineman, or the dude that set the pick, I would bitch slap you. But I think we need to seperate the personalities from the issue. The issue is that technology is outpacing the sports ability to react to it. I personally believe that once you use artificial intellegence(wind meters, calculators, range finders, computers, etc) that seems like a logical place to draw that line.
> I feel the same about music, which is why there can be no good hip hop, or for that matter electronica, or dance music, (issue for another day).


Start hunting with a spear then....


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

mikevanwilder said:


> I guess I came off wrong with my comment and I apologize. Most guys in these so called long range videos and shows I've seen along with guys ive met in person just pay a lot of money for a setup and never do the actual work.
> And yes if you gave me 10k I could hit a target at 1432 yards and I would still have money left over for a burger or 2.
> My gun is probably only about $1000 and my cousin probably 1500 and we have done the work,( bullet drop, wind drift, altitude, etc.) and have consently hit targets out to 1200+. Mind you this wasn't at no shooting range either.
> I'm not trying to discredit you or anyone who actually puts the work into learning the actual ballistics of there rifle and load. I just get annoyed with those who spend thousands and all they do is range a target and shoot and then claim they are long range shooter.
> PS yes I'm impressed with a 600 yard peep site shot!


I see... You put in the time and work portion already. Once that is done a $5,000 rifle just seems cool for the precision and beauty. Something to use for a skill you have.

This will go with Gary's comment, but the thing is these threads usually address people that shoot their gun at a long distance, not someone who trained to do so. Billy Bob with a big gun that shoots at stuff way out of range isn't who I talk about when I speak of long range hunting. Just like a drunk or a group shoot or someone who gut shots stuff from the hood, shoots 3 animals cuz his buddies have tags isn't who people refer to when talking about "normal" hunting. He could have done all that at 100 yards ha


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> I've not got a problem with guys that are REALLY into the long range thing doing it. As was pointed out first thing in the video, everything about the rifle is custom for the long range stuff. Custom everything - barrel, trigger, scope, stock, and loads. And lots of practice. I think he said 300-400 rounds/year? It is clear from the grand assortment of this guy's videos, this is not something haphazard. And I'm good with that. I consider this every bit as much "hunting" as a spot and stock archer using a hand-made recurve bow and hand napped obsidian heads.
> 
> The danger with the long range thing are the idiots that think they can drop $400 for a plastic stock rifle at Walmart and shoot at long distances. That is just stupid and dangerous.
> 
> ...


Gary, you just hammered the nail on the head! These videos make it look slam-dunk. The wannabes have no idea how much practice and discipline it takes. Ask any military sniper what it takes to be proficient at long range.
Shaun Carlock, a former sniper who teaches longrange shooting told me, "you should be calculated and so sure of your shot that you should be SHOCKED when you miss a longrange shot. 95% of most longrange shooters shouldn't be shooting past their point-blank range.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

30-06-hunter said:


> Start hunting with a spear then....


I always wanted to do a spear and was surprised spearing was illegal in a lot of states.

.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

wyogoob said:


> I always wanted to do a spear and was surprised spearing was illegal in a lot of states.
> 
> .


I have a friend in Idaho that speared a bear over a bait. He got in trouble. He didn't care because he already did it and they can't take that from him.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

I work with kids who have these turbo vaccum cleaner rice burners(I am a muscle car guy). These guys claim they can pull 125mph easy. I believe them. So why should we have speed limits? I heard Jimmie Johnson talk about how he is a nervous driver, the guy drives 200mph all the time, he is worried about the rest of us who think we can. Yes, there are guys who can do it. Most of us probably have a gun that can do it. We ain't talking about that, we are talking about SHOULD WE DO IT, IS IT GOOD FOR THE SPORT?


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

hossblur said:


> I work with kids who have these turbo vaccum cleaner rice burners(I am a muscle car guy). These guys claim they can pull 125mph easy. I believe them. So why should we have speed limits? I heard Jimmie Johnson talk about how he is a nervous driver, the guy drives 200mph all the time, he is worried about the rest of us who think we can. Yes, there are guys who can do it. Most of us probably have a gun that can do it. We ain't talking about that, we are talking about SHOULD WE DO IT, IS IT GOOD FOR THE SPORT?


Insert dead horse emoticon....


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Blah blah blah.......long range is not hunting......blah blah......unethical......blah blah.....ruining the sport......blah. Please keep in mind that the tenth most important reason why we hunt is to actually KILL an animal. ------SS


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

The part of long range animal shooting that I wonder about is the remaining energy and velocity of the bullet. Out that far energy and velocity have dropped far below what would generally be acceptable for big game hunting. It seems a .243 isn't enough gun at 300 yards with around 900 ft/lbs of energy but a .300 Win Mag is okay at 1000 with just a bit more at around 1000 ft/lbs. Educate me.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

Cooky said:


> The part of long range animal shooting that I wonder about is the remaining energy and velocity of the bullet. Out that far energy and velocity have dropped far below what would generally be acceptable for big game hunting. It seems a .243 isn't enough gun at 300 yards with around 900 ft/lbs of energy but a .300 Win Mag is okay at 1000 with just a bit more at around 1000 ft/lbs. Educate me.


I know somebody who shoots elk with a .243 out to a 1000 yds ....


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Only an absolute moron would shoot an elk at a 1000 yards with a .243!


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

swbuckmaster said:


> Only an absolute moron would shoot an elk at a 1000 yards with a .243!


The guy has told me that that's exactly what everybody keeps telling him ... he says "it doesn't with what you hit it, it matters where." He's getting some sort of insane velocity with a very tight twist, Berger bullets, loaded hot, and all of that. I'm just saying what he's been telling me -- and I know for sure that he knows his guns.


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## HuntinFoolUtah (Jan 11, 2013)

I wouldn't mess around with a .243 at that distance, but I can assure you that a .300 rum is adequate at 1000 yards.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Slc
I'm no expert by any means but you probably have 15+ feet of drop at a 1000 yards and 15 feet of wind drift with a 5 mph wind. Take into consideration a 243 looses half of its energy at 500 hundred yards. I have no idea how much it has at a 1000 except not enough.

If you can't get to within a 1/4 mile 440 yards of an animal with your camo ghillie suit you fail as a hunter imho. It also takes a special kind of tard to try it with a gun not designed to hunt elk and then push his unskilled hunting abilities to a 1000 yards shot. I bet your friend is the same type of tard archer who ends up shooting and loosing elk and can't figure out why but then brags about the one long bomb he actually got. Sad!


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

elk with .243 at 688 yds...


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Huntintool, would you mind answering my question?


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

1036 yards is childs play... There have been confirmed 1 shot kills three times that far with a .408 Chey Tac. 22" inch groups at 3300 yards would definitely kill an elk. All of this bantering is going to make Griz buy a .408 Chey Tac


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

swbuckmaster said:


> Slc
> I'm no expert by any means but you probably have 15+ feet of drop at a 1000 yards and 15 feet of wind drift with a 5 mph wind. Take into consideration a 243 looses half of its energy at 500 hundred yards. I have no idea how much it has at a 1000 except not enough.
> 
> If you can't get to within a 1/4 mile 440 yards of an animal with your camo ghillie suit you fail as a hunter imho. It also takes a special kind of tard to try it with a gun not designed to hunt elk and then push his unskilled hunting abilities to a 1000 yards shot. I bet your friend is the same type of tard archer who ends up shooting and loosing elk and can't figure out why but then brags about the one long bomb he actually got. Sad!


Oh well. I know he has taken plenty of trophies with a bow. But your all-knowing prejudice ... oh well.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Why would anyone try shooting an elk at a 1000 with a .243 when there are other calibers that are fully capable of thunder-dicking an elk at that distance? It makes me wonder if he was hunting deer and happened on a legal elk, took a popshot at it and happened to hit it.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

SLCHunter said:


> Oh well. I know he has taken plenty of trophies with a bow. But your all-knowing prejudice ... oh well.


Anyone that defends a guy that shoots a 243 at an elk at a 1000 yards needs his head examined. It has nothing to do with prejudice you assume I have. You act like I'm attacking you. Maybe it's you that shoots the elk at that distance and that's why your so sensitive.

Like the poster above said if your going to shoot that far pick a weapon that will thunder dick it that's what I'd do


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## HuntinFoolUtah (Jan 11, 2013)

ridgetop said:


> Huntintool, would you mind answering my question?


I must have missed it. What's your question?


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Huntinfool, are you friends with or hunting buddies with Zac?


I think this is the question that he is referring to.....


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## ARCHER11 (May 26, 2011)

Who needs long range rifles...

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/field-notes/video-a-1000-yard-pistol-shot?src=SOC&dom=fb


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Yeah, even as a fan of LR, a 6MM at 1K on game is to small for me. Even the best ballistics I have seen for them don't break 500Lbs of energy at 1k. Most sit around 400 and about 30+ feet of drop, at the best velocities.. 

Maybe its a .243 Ultra Super Magnum with an oober heavy barrel and hot loads!


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

ARCHER11 said:


> Who needs long range rifles...
> 
> http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/field-notes/video-a-1000-yard-pistol-shot?src=SOC&dom=fb


Wow, my jaw dropped!


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

swbuckmaster said:


> Anyone that defends a guy that shoots a 243 at an elk at a 1000 yards needs his head examined. It has nothing to do with prejudice you assume I have. You act like I'm attacking you. Maybe it's you that shoots the elk at that distance and that's why your so sensitive.
> 
> Like the poster above said if your going to shoot that far pick a weapon that will thunder dick it that's what I'd do


Actually, that's not quite what you said. What you said that he's a "tard" who has no skills and I don't know what else. Your choice of words. And rest assured, it's not me, I would never consider shooting this far with any weapon, don't have the training or equipment. I actually don't even have the experience to judge the whole affair. You should just chill out and not insult people without knowing them.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Nambaster said:


> 1036 yards is childs play... There have been confirmed 1 shot kills three times that far with a .408 Chey Tac. 22" inch groups at 3300 yards would definitely kill an elk. All of this bantering is going to make Griz buy a .408 Chey Tac


I got your 408CheyenneTactical right here! Here's a picture of me trying for the 1500yd target. This is one of the "fun guns" that one of the snipers brought for our last day of training at Wendover Airforce range a few years back. It was made by EDC and it was crazy accurate. THESE DUDES COULD SHOOT THIS THING!!! I felt small next to them.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Now that's a thunder dick


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

With that gun if you see an elk.... That elk is as good as dead if he holds still for you to do all the calculating and what not. I also hear that they buck the wind like nothing you would ever believe.


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## ARCHER11 (May 26, 2011)

The Boone & Crockett Club released a great statement on long-range shooting earlier this year and there have been some great articles to follow. If you have some time, these are worth the read.

http://www.boone-crockett.org/about/LRS.asp?area=about&ID=6B455080&se=1&te=1

http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/featured_story.asp?area=news&ID=223

http://bugle.rmef.org/publication/?i=237606&p=9

I know we've beat this thread to death but I would be interested to hear some counter arguments to these statements. I don't have any experience with long-range shooting and very minimal experience with rifles in general so I really don't have a solid opinion on this just yet. Ethics is such a grey area though, it's very difficult to clearly state right or wrong and in the case of long range shooting I think there is more to to it then simply whether or not you can hit and quickly kill an animal at any given distance.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

great reads from the links above. Just a few quotes from them, for those who don't plan to read them anyway:

"Hunting must involve the risk of detection and failure if there is to be any honor in having overcome the superior senses and survival instincts of the hunted. "

"The real concern, as Boone and Crockett Club sees it, is hunters not trying to get a closer one [shot]."

"...the Club [Boone and Crockett] firmly takes issue with hunters who choose shooting long rather than trying to get close."

""The honor and lasting memories in hunting have always been in our ability to get close to game animals. And _every_ hunter has better odds of a quick, clean kill at closer distances. That's one of our most imperative responsibilities as a hunter, and that's the legacy of sportsmanship that we believe is important to uphold,"


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Interesting positions from B&C and RMEF. Very interesting.


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## ARCHER11 (May 26, 2011)

PBH said:


> great reads from the links above. Just a few quotes from them, for those who don't plan to read them anyway:
> 
> "Hunting must involve the risk of detection and failure if there is to be any honor in having overcome the superior senses and survival instincts of the hunted. "
> 
> ...


Thanks PBH, I liked these quotes as well. There is some interesting word choice in each article.

The use of the word honor really stands out to me.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

ARCHER11 said:


> The Boone & Crockett Club released a great statement on long-range shooting earlier this year and there have been some great articles to follow. If you have some time, these are worth the read.
> 
> http://www.boone-crockett.org/about/LRS.asp?area=about&ID=6B455080&se=1&te=1
> 
> ...


That is indeed interesting, and I appreciate the post. The line drawn here separates hunters who try to harvest an animal that might detect them, and those who want to challenge their shooting equipment and skills at extreme ranges.

I certainly fall in the former category, but in the Mountain West the "risk of detection" can easily imply a 400 or 500 yard shot. Or? Last Winter, I was on a hillside and a herd of 20 elk bedded out in the open, 450 yards from me. They just looked at me. I wasn't comfortable shooting that far, so I inched closer. At some point, they weren't comfortable with me closing the gap, and left. That was that -- detected!

Lastly, what got me into this thread is not interest in a 1000yd shot, or shooting at elk with a 243 at that distance -- but the claim that _long range shooters wound more animals than others_. Do we have any data on that? What reason do we have to think that is the case?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Funny the B&C has this stance. Even better that the same people that use this article to bash LR will also bash trophy hunting in another conversation. B&C is trophy hunting. Without guides, mossback, sketchy trophy hunts(ie this years gov tag drama), Lr hunting, special interest groups, antelope island style hunts, cwmu's, etc etc... The B&C loses a lot of relevancy.

Better odds at shooting closer. If you don't know how to shoot at 1000 yards, you aren't going to get even close with a shot! Shooting 3 rounds a year and hitting paper at 200 means jack as far as yor honor or ethics. I get pissed off if a round is barely outside of moa. (really, others are like why are you mad at that tiny group and i get pissed. Thats the end of that ammo, next round).

Honor? Its rediculous to label one style of hunting to be different than other styles. To speak about an individual and their beliefs or respect towards game. Its also hard to talk about difficulty, or error, when you are stuck on one side of the fence.

Silly stuff. Honor? At the end of the day, you are killing an animal that doesn't want to be killed. Get off yer high horses. I might as well be reading PETA magazine.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Then again they say 

"Position 
The Boone and Crockett Club believes the term “long-range” shooting is more defined by a hunter’s intent, than any specific distance at which a shot is taken. If the intent of the individual is to test equipment and determine how far one can shoot to hit a live target and if there is no motivation to risk engagement with the animal being hunted, this practice is not hunting and should not be accorded the same status as hunting. "

I am not testing. I know how far I can hit and exactly where I can hit. Guys that shoot 50 rounds at 1k every week, trying new loads to improve the slightest, they aren't testing on an animal. Testing is thoroughly complete.

And:

The distance at which a shot is considered “long-range,” ethical, or unethical cannot be defined by specific yardages because this varies with each individual situation. It depends on equipment, shooting conditions, the species being hunted, the hunter’s experience and marksmanship skills, and other variables. It also depends on the commitment of every responsible hunter to avoid inflicting undo suffering, to make quick and humane kills, and to make every effort never to waste animals pursued as legal quarry. 

Whats long for you might be chump change foe the next guy. And do I want a quick clean kill? Don't hunters of all distances have that intent?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I read these this week. The best part of this is B&C takes no stance here at all. It is a huge fence-sitting operation with no real meat. 

Question for those that hate long range hunting: Where is the line? I see numerous people on forums come out any time long range is brought up who adamantly oppose it as unethical, non-sporting, wrong, etc. So, if you are so against it, where is the line? At what yardage does the one-shot kill go from being acceptable to the one-shot kill become offensive, unethical, or wrong?

What is the line? And don't give me 'it depends' because there are guys that shoot better at 1000 yards than I do at 200. Yet the 1000 still offends your sense of ethics or morality. So...what is that magic number?


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

TS30 said:


> I read these this week. The best part of this is B&C takes no stance here at all. It is a huge fence-sitting operation with no real meat.
> 
> Question for those that hate long range hunting: Where is the line? I see numerous people on forums come out any time long range is brought up who adamantly oppose it as unethical, non-sporting, wrong, etc. So, if you are so against it, where is the line? At what yardage does the one-shot kill go from being acceptable to the one-shot kill become offensive, unethical, or wrong?
> 
> What is the line? And don't give me 'it depends' because there are guys that shoot better at 1000 yards than I do at 200. Yet the 1000 still offends your sense of ethics or morality. So...what is that magic number?


The magic number should be where the bullet no longer retains enough energy to cleanly kill the target animal. There are some amazing shooters out there, (a number of them are on here) they can hit at incredible distances. But, at the distances some guys shoot animals the bullet doesn't have the energy it takes for a clean kill with a hit to the vitals.
Here's some data:
http://www.millettsights.com/downloads/ConsiderTerminalBallistics.pdf
Hitting gongs at 1200 is cool, hitting an animal at 1200 is risking just poking a hole and having an animal run off wounded.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

This has been a very good thread to read. I am NOT an advocate of long range shooting "AT BIG GAME ANIMALS", unless like Cooky said, the weapon and bullet retain the killing compounds needed at the range shot AND the shooter has the skills to do it. Skills require a lot of practice and practice requires a TON of shots and shots require a TON of money.
Joe *******....have you done your part in this?
I love to shoot a long shot and hit what I'm aiming at, but to me a long range shot is 500 yards...hell, I can hardly see that far.
I agree with Boone and Crockett and their stand, I agree with RMEF and their stand (nearly word for word with B&C).
Ya, we can all sit here and say what we want about our ability or our buddies abilities blah, blah, blah....but what about that animal? It's over 1/2 mile away...we shoot...it does not drop in its tracks...we don't see any obvious hump...our spotting buddy sees nothing...not even where the bullet hit. Are we going to go over there and look for blood? Heck no! It will cut into our "hunting time".
Guys and gals, I have a lot of years under my belt, not as many as a few on here, but trust me, I have heard a lot of stories from my hunting friends who took that late evening 200 yard shot and missed and then two days later found that animal all bloated and not fit to harvest, just a few hundred yards from where they shot "at" it. I quit talking to him about anything other than work after that. Just yesterday on Facebook I saw where a young lady shot a MONSTER of a bull elk. She had a coveted tag and I think it was in Utah where she bagged this monster. Of course she had her guide service group and I loved the pictures of her and then her and her group. No doubt the bull elk was(is) a MONSTER...I "liked" the picture. Then in another posting by another hunting group I am a Facebook friend of, the statement about her hitting it at over 1,000 yards was in the posting....did I "like" that picture? Nope. I'm very happy for her and her bull elk and believe me I would love to have that one on my wall, but not with a shot that far under my belt.
No, you long range guys can have that and I hope you go and check for blood after your shot, but I'll bet you a 12 pack right now none of you will take the time to hike down that 1/4 mile drainage and up the other side to do it while a buddy of yours sits on his butt where you shot from to guide you to where the animal was standing when you pulled the trigger.
Think about it.
I'm not here to argue, I'm not here to convince you to join my way of thinking. Actually, I don't care what you think of this posting, take it or leave it, but in your own mind, if the animal doesn't even know you are in the same county as it is because you are so very far away from it when you pull the trigger....is that "fair chase"?
Nuff said.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

TS30 said:


> I read these this week. The best part of this is B&C takes no stance here at all. It is a huge fence-sitting operation with no real meat.
> 
> Question for those that hate long range hunting: Where is the line? I see numerous people on forums come out any time long range is brought up who adamantly oppose it as unethical, non-sporting, wrong, etc. So, if you are so against it, where is the line? At what yardage does the one-shot kill go from being acceptable to the one-shot kill become offensive, unethical, or wrong?
> 
> What is the line? And don't give me 'it depends' because there are guys that shoot better at 1000 yards than I do at 200. Yet the 1000 still offends your sense of ethics or morality. So...what is that magic number?


+1 ...


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

I'm just going to say it again, and more clearly:

The vast majority of cases with wounded and not recovered animals occurs when people take _bad shots_, meaning with little light, hurried, moving animals, or beyond their personal and their equipment's range. None of this has anything to do with the distance of the shot.

And not following up on a shot is bad ethics, period.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

TS30 spot on. I think the line is as far as the judging person can shoot.

Cooky, you were right until you were 100% wrong ha. My 7RM has over 1000 lbs at 1000 yards. At 1000 yards and up, if you have a 300 mag, ultra mag, or any 338 you have MORE than enough energy at 1000. Brings up the fact that some that judge take shots at 400 yards using bullets and calibers that have less energy than the LR guys have well past 1000 yards! 

Again people, the assumptions and negativity don't make sense when you talk about billy bob shooting out of HIS range. I can show you so many 1 shot kills past 1000 yards, and I can show you tons of non lethal archery shots at 20 yards, multiple gunshots at -200 that never recover the deer.

Just because you can't do these things, or don't have a mathmatical understanding of this things, or te physics, skills, equip... Whatever it may be! You and your gun safe does not dictate what is and isn't possible. Try and understand that these people aren't killing s*** by accident or luck at these yardages. How hard is that to understand??? 

Most the time when someone is actually shooting at 800 yards, not just hail maryin it, their groups are tighter than probably 50% of the joe blows at 200 yards. Don't believe me? Go to the range every weekend and look around. Then go out for general rifle and look around. Wayyyyyy more people afield then I ever see as a range member. Talk to guys all the time that have never killed with their weapon or even sighted it in on some occasions!!!!!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Since most of you judging will never understand or take the time to learn, just humor me and browse through 1 thread of a true longe range hunter as he figures out which bullet to use:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/comparing-berger-210-vld-215-hybrid-88657/

If you don't know what any of the stuff means, please PM me and ask. After he gets through the kill pics you can stop reading if you like. This is just one of the best documented threads ever. Especially since I use the same bullet.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanks for posting that link elk.....at least honest folks will see the passion that surrounds marksmanship and preparation. Even if you don't personally choose to participate, please respect and employ a little "live and let live". EVERY type of hunting has evolved in ways to facilitate hunter advantage. Guess that happens, especially when many tags are once in a decade or even lifetime. So why are some advantages considered unethical while others are deemed fine? Its all about personal agenda mixed with a bit of selfishness. -----SS


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Bears Butt said:


> I'm not here to argue, I'm not here to convince you to join my way of thinking. Actually, I don't care what you think of this posting, take it or leave it, but in your own mind, if the animal doesn't even know you are in the same county as it is because you are so very far away from it when you pull the trigger....is that "fair chase"?
> Nuff said.


You're asking that question in a way that very clearly implies that YOU don't think 1,000 yards is fair chase. That's totally okay from my perspective. But I have to ask, at what distance does 'fair chase' end? Again...what is the magic number?

For the record, very few, if any Joe-blow weekend warriors are taking 1,000 yard shots. They are taking 500-600 yard shots and calling them 1,000 on Facebook and to their buddies. Most average hunters don't even stroll out with equipment capable of seeing an animal at 1,000 yards, let alone taking a shot at them.

I'm not a long range shooter. To be candid, I'm only comfortable shooting out to about 300 yards right now. But I don't shoot very often. I hope to correct that over the next couple years where I'm comfortable out to 450-500. My gun is capable of much greater distances than its shooter.

But I go back to my question....for all you that have spoken out so adamantly against LR shooting of animals, what is the magic number?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

What about putting up state of the art cameras that monitor game movements day in and day out for months before the season. Heck, the animals don't even know they are being photographed, downloaded, and posted on the internet to be either sold, or talked about before they are ultimately killed. Is that fair chase?-------SS


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Springville Shooter said:


> What about putting up state of the art cameras that monitor game movements day in and day out for months before the season. Heck, the animals don't even know they are being photographed, downloaded, and posted on the internet to be either sold, or talked about before they are ultimately killed. Is that fair chase?-------SS


Scent-away, game cams, rangefinders, compound bows, modern inline ML, mechanical broadheads, camo that looks like a dang tree! Then they went crazy and turned orange, into orange camo! Mind... Blown!

What the h*** is a phoneskope?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> What the h*** is a phoneskope?


A very expensive adapter to mount your phone on a spotting scope to take pictures. I built a home made one for a couple bucks that does the same thing.

-DallanC


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

You know, none of the longrange wannabes say anything about doping the wind. I have verified my drops, adjusted my BC/velocities so my dropchart matches my real-life hits, bobbed my head to verify parallax adjustment, adjusted my cosign angle of my up/down shots and ranged my distance. All these and others are constants. The wind...not so much. I sometimes ask a "test" question when I smell BS. Whenever a wannabe starts flapping his lips about his longrange kill, I ask him what his wind dope was. If he doesn't know, I wonder if he just took a popshot and got lucky. It's the one factor that experienced longrangers fuss and worry about. Guessing the wind's effects is THEE hardest thing to master when shooting clear out there.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Did you see that?! I got "top o' the page!"


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

One of the first long range DVD's I bought was Beyond Belief. Love it!

The How to Dope Wind - Beyond Belief DVD tied together a lot of my research and field time nicely. Wind is something I learn more about every year. Do you have any additional resources to recommend Longbow??


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> One of the first long range DVD's I bought was Beyond Belief. Love it!
> 
> The How to Dope Wind - Beyond Belief DVD tied together a lot of my research and field time nicely. Wind is something I learn more about every year. Do you have any additional resources to recommend Longbow??


Not anything specific. I learned mostly from our training (I was never a sniper), civilian classes and lots of shooting. I will offer this though. The military teaches this:
(I copied and pasted this) [The traditional rifleman's way of estimating windspeed is by looking around himself and seeing how the wind affects objects. A wind lightly felt upon your face is 3 - 5 mph; a 5-8 mph wind will agitate the leaves on trees; 8 - 12 mph and the wind is raising dust; 12 - 15 mph sways small trees; and water begins to whitecap at 17 mph. Being able to estimate these things with any accuracy requires practice however.]

I use the 1, 2, 3 o'clock, no-boil mirage method quite often.https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...o9gZ_go4LWuZAcMRAIXZ4ZuQ&ust=1418537051293392 It's pretty accurate. You can check the different wind speeds between you and your target by scrolling your parallax adjustment from your position to your target and watch either the wind's effects on the rain/snow/mist/foliage or the mirage. Watch your focal plane as it goes from you to your target. You'll see it change. Figure an average of what you see and set your windage to that. I used this on a 660 yard antelope near Carter Wyoming. I had a light snow falling at 7 oclock but as I scrolled towards the antelope it changed to 5 oclock. One wind direction canceled the other out. I left my windage at zero. If I had went with my wind meter from my position I might have gutshot him. (I was shooting a .25cal 100gr Barnes @ 3750fps. Not a great bullet for crosswinds).
Just make sure you set your parallax back and bob your head to verify it.
I still stress over the wind.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks longbow! I bought myself a Kestrel and love it, but it only tells you wind and temp where you are. 

I have an index card with the following(right on with what you said):

* 0-3 MPH barely felt, smoke will drift.
* 3-5 MPH can barely be felt on face.
* 5-8 MPH tree leaves in constant motion.
* 8-12 MPH dust and loose paper moves.
* 12-15 MPH, small trees begin to sway.
* 15-20 MPH causes large trees to sway.

I will add the 17 mph to my card. Good stuff!

I have another, summarizing the following:

Wind at 6 and 12 o'clock has virtually no effect except on extremely long shots. Right angle winds, either from 3 or 9 o'clock are termed "Full-Value Wind" and they have the most effect on bullets. Oblique winds, other than at right angles are called "Partial Value Wind". This would include angles such as 12:30 to 2:30 or midway between
12:00 o'clock and 3:00 o'clock etc. Partial value wind has one half the effect of full value wind.


I have word docs saved with various subjects and use index cards to keep the best info handy. I also have a slope doper but never take it afield anymore. Was good to learn with. I purchased that and the kestrel to help verify my calculations. I am pretty good with slope and ranging, including using my reticles to range(really time consuming for me). Just kinda fun but doubt I ever put the rangefinder down. I watched a marine sniper school documentary and a large number get cut during a shooting test where you have to estimate range. I believe it was out to 1000 or so yards. Crazy stuff, and it was windy during the test!

This will benefit hunters no matter what range: I like to hit the hills and set targets at various elevations and distances. Not everyone has access to an area like that but it sure is nice to shoot 3-4 different distances/slopes, one after another. Simulates some real hunting scenarios. Do this on a breezy day and your in for a treat!


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

PBH said:


> great reads from the links above. Just a few quotes from them, for those who don't plan to read them anyway:
> 
> "Hunting must involve the risk of detection and failure if there is to be any honor in having overcome the superior senses and survival instincts of the hunted. "
> 
> ...


Some find honor in getting up close enough to put an arrow through it's heart at 30 yards, others may find honor in killing an animal from 1300 yards with a rifle they built themselves and bullets they built through much trial an error.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

SLCHunter said:


> That is indeed interesting, and I appreciate the post. The line drawn here separates hunters who try to harvest an animal that might detect them, and those who want to challenge their shooting equipment and skills at extreme ranges.
> 
> I certainly fall in the former category, but in the Mountain West the "risk of detection" can easily imply a 400 or 500 yard shot. Or? Last Winter, I was on a hillside and a herd of 20 elk bedded out in the open, 450 yards from me. They just looked at me. I wasn't comfortable shooting that far, so I inched closer. At some point, they weren't comfortable with me closing the gap, and left. That was that -- detected!
> 
> Lastly, what got me into this thread is not interest in a 1000yd shot, or shooting at elk with a 243 at that distance -- but the claim that _long range shooters wound more animals than others_. Do we have any data on that? What reason do we have to think that is the case?


It's funny you mention this, elk would stare at me all day from across the canyon and not budge, but the second they smell you they are gone. Interestingly enough, I killed my spike across this same canyon at 236 yards but stayed upwind while the herd seemingly stared at me.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

RandomElk16 said:


> Funny the B&C has this stance. Even better that the same people that use this article to bash LR will also bash trophy hunting in another conversation. B&C is trophy hunting. Without guides, mossback, sketchy trophy hunts(ie this years gov tag drama), Lr hunting, special interest groups, antelope island style hunts, cwmu's, etc etc... The B&C loses a lot of relevancy.
> 
> Better odds at shooting closer. If you don't know how to shoot at 1000 yards, you aren't going to get even close with a shot! Shooting 3 rounds a year and hitting paper at 200 means jack as far as yor honor or ethics. I get pissed off if a round is barely outside of moa. (really, others are like why are you mad at that tiny group and i get pissed. Thats the end of that ammo, next round).
> 
> ...


Knowing that where I hunt the average shot is around 250 I sighted mine for 200 with 2 of the 3 holes touching, my spike at 236 was the perfect shot and with more practice should be comfortable up to 400.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> A very expensive adapter to mount your phone on a spotting scope to take pictures. I built a home made one for a couple bucks that does the same thing.
> 
> -DallanC


I was jking... Just adding to the *fair chase* thing. We now can use our iphone 16 or whatever there are and $2000 spotting scope to film game 1000 yards away for months before we fair chase it with _________ weapon.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting that not one person in the group that have spoken out so vehemently against what they term "long range shooting" is willing to draw that line in the sand where it goes from ethical to not ethical, or from fair chase to not fair chase. 

As I said before, I'm not a long range shooter. I'm open to the discussion. But I have often been told that stating a problem without a solution is just whining. I will ask again to all those that bashed long range hunting shots for 9 solid pages above, or those that have done it for dozens of other pages in the past: 

At what point does it not become "fair chase" anymore? What is that number?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Great question TS30. What is the number.

To me, fair chase isn't about a number of yards. Someone pointed out that hunting from a tree stand isn't fair chase - he just scouts, knows where the animals go, hangs a stand, and waits. A kill might be from 5 yards away, but with camo clothes, cover scents, and being up in a tree out of the normal field of vision, the hunter is undetectable. 

A long range shooter can be across a canyon and not within a detectable distance from the game. And the shot may be from 1000 yards. Is that different? 

In either scenario, it requires skill from the hunter to locate game, know where they are, know what they will be doing, and set up to make a shot with a chosen weapon. I personally consider both scenarios as fair chase. 

Because to me, the hunt is much more than just firing a shot or releasing an arrow. The hunt includes all the preparation that goes into - scouting, learning about the animals, their habitats, their patterns, how and where they live, and then putting yourself in position for a harvest, and then possessing the skills with your chose weapon, so you can make the kill. I see all those things in the long range hunting. I see them in tree-stand hunting. I see them less and less in road hunting and guys that ride around on 4 wheelers until they scare something up. 

At what point is it no longer fair chase? To me, that can't be questioned by a number.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Great post Gary! I agree 100%.-------SS


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## ARCHER11 (May 26, 2011)

TS30 said:


> At what point does it not become "fair chase" anymore? What is that number?


I'm not sure if you're referring to me as one of the long range "bashers" (I think I mentioned in my post that I don't really have an opinion either way and i'm interested in the discussion) but i'll throw some ideas out there in response to your question.

For one, I think Gary made an excellent point! Hard to add much to that but i'll share some thoughts.

I really don't think there's a line that can be drawn in terms of ability and equipment. One guys "line" is going to be different from another guys line. You cant set a standard that declares all shots past that unethical. I posted the articles that I posted because I think they did a decent job of leaving ability and advancing technology out of it and looking at things more from a "respect for the game" standpoint. We could argue all day whether ones abilities or equipment are capable of long range shooting and I really don't think that's where the issue (for those that have one) with long range shooting lies. I have no doubt that there is equipment and people out there with the abilities to make clean kills on animals well beyond 1000 yards.

The question isn't really about equipment or abilities but rather whether or not killing an animal from a range where the hunter cannot reasonably be detected is fair chase. So, whats THAT range? At what point can an animal no longer detect human activity? If you do your homework and learn an animals patterns to a point that you have reason to believe you could kill it inside that detection range are you justified in shooting him from outside it? I don't know, it's a tough call and I don't think you can give a number there either.

I really think it comes down to intent. Has the hunter put in the effort to understand their own personal limits and have an appreciation and respect for the animals or in many cases, a single animal that they are hunting? I also agree with Gary in his statement that its more about the kill and that preparation is a large factor and indication of respect for the game. I have no doubt that the dedicated long range crowd knows what it means to be prepared for that shot opportunity. They're a unique group with a knowledge and understanding of their weapon that I really don't think you'll find in other forms of hunting. I would venture to guess that a lot of the guys that are really passionate about long range hunting strive for that critical understanding of their equipment and abilities purely out of respect for the game they hunt.

Anyway, I don't know, I really go back and forth on this one but ultimately I think it comes down to hunter intent and a level of preparedness that allows time for someone to gain an appreciation for the animals they're hunting. Whether you're shooting from 1000 yards with a rifle you spent countless hours honing in or from 5 yards with a stickbow you made yourself, if you've put in the time and can say to yourself after punching that tag that you worked for that kill I don't think your weapon choice or shot distance matters.

This has been a great thread! Randomelk and longbow, thanks for the insight. I'll be sure and get in touch with you guys when i'm ready to build me a rifle 8)


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

TS30 said:


> Interesting that not one person in the group that have spoken out so vehemently against what they term "long range shooting" is willing to draw that line in the sand where it goes from ethical to not ethical, or from fair chase to not fair chase.


Give me a chance. UWN isn't the first thing I do on Monday morning.

Where is the line?

In my own opinion, this question was answered in the quotes I pulled from the B&C links. I'm not a B&C fan, for whatever that is worth. But, I think every hunter should ask themselves a question before taking a shot: Can I get closer?

from B&C: Hunting must involve the risk of detection.

When shooting at ranges of 1000 yards, or more, is there any true risk of detection?

Did you try to get closer? Was the opportunity available to get closer without being detected?

EVERY hunters odds of a quick and clean kill increase at closer distances.

TS -- I'm not going to sit here and say that there is a line at 943 yards. Nor will I say that 74 yards is the max for an archer. I've taken shots, and made one shot kills, at distances to 425 yards. I even took a 90+ yard shot with my bow this year (and missed). Like many have mentioned, distances are relative to the hunter, the equipment, and their experience. But the questions above still apply, even to the guy who shoots sub-moa at 1300 yards. That's just my opinion.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

The whole detection thing is an interesting part of the debate. Drive around the oil and gas fields in a white pick up and you can drive within 10 yards of pronghorn and they'll just look at you. Try the same thing on a 4 wheeler wearing an orange vest and you can't get within 1/2 mile of the little buggers. Or get out of the white truck and see how quick they are gone. It isn't about detection. It is about detection as a perceived threat. That can happen at 5 yards, and it can happen at 2,000 yards. A hunter in a blind or tree stand can be undetected by the game animal at the closest of distances. I don't buy you having to be within "detectable distances" to equate it to fair chase. That is about as easy to define as the distance for an ethical shot, or preference for blondes or brunettes.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

PBH said:


> When shooting at ranges of 1000 yards, or more, is there any true risk of detection?
> 
> Did you try to get closer? Was the opportunity available to get closer without being detected?
> 
> ...


You bring a strong point. I think both you and I are guilty of not getting closer when we could have. My last antelope was 660+ yards. Could I have got closer? I'm sure I could. Could you have gotten closer than 90 yards? I can't imagine you couldn't (I'm assuming you could). So many times I've gotten within my range of an animal either with a rifle or a longbow and thought, "OK, time to shoot".


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

I think it all has to boil down to personal responsibility, knowing what you and your equipment can and cannot do, I have been at the center of heated debates for years over "long range" archery, I've shot bows since I was 8, and tested tested and tweaked things over and over, personally on my own income bought and purposely destroyed broad-heads, strings and cables, tons of them. My setup I might go through 3 to 4 dozen arrows to make a perfect set of 8. everything is exactly the same, some might call that extreme, but that is my passion. I would routinely shoot 160 yards just to make 100 yards easy. On completely unaware game with the right conditions 120 yards would be my max with deadly results. I'm personally safe and confident at 200 with my muzzleloader, but I cant be mad or talk crap about the guy that can do it at 250. My rifle is the same way, trial and error with lots of practice and know what my limit is, and still I cant get mad at the guy that took a bigger elk 200 yards further than me. We really cant justify what is or whats not ethical, we all really are on the same team, just the few that don't even bother to make time to understand or practice are the ones that should be sitting on the bench.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

longbow said:


> Could you have gotten closer than 90 yards? I can't imagine you couldn't (I'm assuming you could).


I took the shot only because I knew I could not get any closer. It was a 90 yard shot because I was busted at 60 -- trying to get closer. My goals are to get within 50 yards, and even closer if possible. The question that needs to be asked is: should I have taken the shot?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

So, PBH, you are taking the same non-position that B&C is taking? Because let's be honest, they did not take a position. They kicked a hornets nest and are trying to politely ask the hornets to go back inside like nothing happened. I don't recall you taking a very hard stance against long range shooting, so my question may not be intended for you. You are mostly just stirring the pot a little bit bringing up points without necessarily saying the practice is wrong. However, there are those on here that are on the record both on this thread and on many others saying 1,000 yards is not fair chase, or not ethical, or not hunting, but just shooting, and...that it is wrong. So I want to know what, in their mind, that line is. 

Again, I don't mind the discussion. I think it is a very healthy discussion. I don't even mind those that are adamantly against this new fad of long range shooting. Just if you're going to have the opinion, then have it. Let's establish where that line is from the anti-long range hunting crowd. What is the number?


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

PBH said:


> I took the shot only because I knew I could not get any closer. It was a 90 yard shot because I was busted at 60 -- trying to get closer. My goals are to get within 50 yards, and even closer if possible. The question that needs to be asked is: should I have taken the shot?


No you should not have... i don't think anyone should shoot 90 yards with a bow. the whole point of bow hunting is to get close. and take a gimme shot


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Skally said:


> No you should not have... i don't think anyone should shoot 90 yards with a bow. the whole point of bow hunting is to get close. and take a gimme shot


I understand what you're saying, and yes the point is to get close, but there are a million situations where the shot is not a "gimme". I don't think *I* should shoot at 90 yards, because I'm not proficient at that yardage. However, I'm not going to assume other people haven't practiced extensively and have the equipment to make that shot. I would hope they tried to get closer, but in PBH's case sounds like he was busted and could not get closer.

A lot of work goes into being proficient at "long range" whether with a bow or rifle. I'm not, so I won't take those shots. But I'm not going to say unequivocally that no one should shoot at (Insert "long range" here)____________ distance.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I killed a elk at 1036 inches once... the coolest elk hunt I've been on.


-DallanC


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

TS30, I guess when you boil it all down, it all comes back to what Cookie said....When the energy of your projectile...be it spear (Goob), bow (all you bow guys), muzzy (all us muzz guys) or any other weapon (pretty much everyone else), does not have enough energy to kill the game you are shooting at then you have stepped across the line.

My 54 cal. muzzy with 90 grains of powder and a 425 gr. conical can NOT kill a deer at 500 yards, in fact much closer than that and so without all the complicated bullet drop, wind factors, my heart beat at the time, etc. etc., I will not take a shot over 100 yards.

If you have one of those 338 Lupas (or whatever they are) and are capable of shooting it with your hand tuned bullets and it retains the killing power out at (X), let's say 2,000 yards, then shoot away.

BUT, let's get real here, after you shoot, do yourself and the animal a favor and go over to where it was standing and look for blood. That is ethical. That is fair chase. In my opinion.

So, everyone who is out hunting needs to know the retained energy of their bullet out to some point (ballistically), keep that in mind when they decide to take that shot and be willing and able to take the walk after the shot.


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

Kwalk3 said:


> I understand what you're saying, and yes the point is to get close, but there are a million situations where the shot is not a "gimme". I don't think *I* should shoot at 90 yards, because I'm not proficient at that yardage. However, I'm not going to assume other people haven't practiced extensively and have the equipment to make that shot. I would hope they tried to get closer, but in PBH's case sounds like he was busted and could not get closer.
> 
> A lot of work goes into being proficient at "long range" whether with a bow or rifle. I'm not, so I won't take those shots. But I'm not going to say unequivocally that no one should shoot at (Insert "long range" here)____________ distance.


if you want to shoot farther than 60 yards don't buy an archery tag.. hunt with a muzzle loader or shotgun... why choose a bow then take 90-100 yard shots with it? too many things can go wrong with long distance.

So just because you are "busted" means you let one fly for ****s and giggles?


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

I already said I wouldn't shoot that far. I'm just trying not to judge someone else's code of ethics by my own. There is a lot that can go wrong no matter how far away you are. I agree that that is compounded the farther away you get. However, I don't think it's as black and white as 59 yds is ok but 62 is not.


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## hunt_trap_life (Oct 18, 2014)

This has been an interesting thread, so I gotta give my 2 cents. I have practiced long range shooting, put the work in on the loading bench, at the range, in the field on rocks and other targets at random ranges, and on a few coyotes(longest confirmed kill was just a shade over 800). So I thought I was ready for elk. I went out on a cow hunt with my brother, we stalked in to under 200 of the herd and he took the first shot, cow down. Now it was my turn, the herd ran off a ways and then started milling around at about 500, I singled out a lone cow towards the back of the herd, got a range, dialed a correction on my scope and bang, another cow down. This past fall I gereral muzzleloader hunted a bull, I stalked the herd in the thick aspen, found the bull, ranged him at 40 yards and bang, bull down. I remember both hunts well, but I would not trade the thrill of getting right in amongst those elk for anything, the smell of being right in on the herd, the way my heart was pounding, hearing every footfall of every elk in that herd before and after the shot. To me I respect those that put in the time and effort to shoot long right, and I'll probably keep doing it at the range because it is fun, but when I hunt elk, or deer it's more satisfying to me to get up close and personal. To each his own I guess as long as you are willing to put in the work and do it responsibly


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

PBH said:


> The question that needs to be asked is: should I have taken the shot?


Sounds like you're an accomplished shooter with a bow. The only problem I see with B&C's stance is what if you or I sneak into compound/longbow/338Edge range and we are just inside our 100% hit range. Do we take a shot we know we can make or try to sneak in closer and risk a blown stalk? It's a [email protected] hard call.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Not a hard decision for me at all. My instincts tell me when it's time to kill something. I usually don't wait around long or think about philosophical ethics questions. If I want the animal and I can make the shot then I get busy with shootin.------SS


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Bears Butt,

There are plenty of cartridges that are capable of retaining the necessary energy to kill big game at 1,000 yards very effectively. There are also plenty that do not. I think your position is reasonable. And even if I didn't, you'd still be entitled to it. 

I think we all can agree that if your equipment or abilities are not capable of effectively killing the animal, you should not take the shot. That is a total no-brainer. Still waiting for anyone that is against long range hunting as a matter of principle to let us know at what point it goes from okay to not okay. There are plenty of you on here. We've seen your posts. What is that number?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

longbow said:


> Do we take a shot we know we can make or try to sneak in closer and risk a blown stalk? It's a [email protected] hard call.


And this, right here ^^^, is the problem with many (not all) "long range" shooters. Do they even ask those questions? do they consider getting closer, or do they actually look for the further shot? that's the problem in my mind. You attempt to get as close as you can prior to taking a shot. Is 1000 yards the closest you can get -- if so, and you have the equipment and skills necessary to make that shot, then take it.

How many people take those shots without the right equipment? Without the right training? Without the right knowledge and skillset? That's the problem with today's long range shooting -- there are too many people that _think_ that it's OK because they own a Lapua. the size of your pocketbook shouldn't be the determining factor.

I've hunted a long time with a bow. I do my share of practicing. I want to get as close as possible. My spike elk in 2014 was a 10 yard shot - my previous spike was 20 yards -- I'm proud of those kills. I can count on 1 hand how many shots I've taken 80+ at animals. Thus, the question that I asked: should I have taken that shot? How many other bow hunters question a 90 yard shot? Not very many in today's world. heck, I would say that the majority wouldn't think twice. Usually the comment is: today's equipment can shoot that far. My car can do 120mph. Should I?

How many photo's do you see today where the rifle is in the background with an index card taped to the stock? People are looking for the "long" shot, and NOT trying to get close. I don't agree with that. Hunting is all about challenging a wild animal and trying to get close to make a kill. Sitting up on a ridge and shooting from 1 mile away doesn't fit that definition of hunting for me. Obviously, for others it does.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

PBH said:


> And this, right here ^^^, is the problem with many (not all) "long range" shooters. Do they even ask those questions? do they consider getting closer, or do they actually look for the further shot? that's the problem in my mind. You attempt to get as close as you can prior to taking a shot. Is 1000 yards the closest you can get -- if so, and you have the equipment and skills necessary to make that shot, then take it.
> 
> How many people take those shots without the right equipment? Without the right training? Without the right knowledge and skillset? That's the problem with today's long range shooting -- there are too many people that _think_ that it's OK because they own a Lapua. the size of your pocketbook shouldn't be the determining factor.
> 
> ...


What if I have a clean shot at a range I am 110% comfortable with? If I get closer, maybe my range is better, but maybe I don't have as clear of a shot. What's better? If I have the entire elk in a clearing, broadside - that's a dang easy shot. If I go closer and have trees and branches in the way or a smaller shot window, how is that better?

A lot of guys fire off shots on spooked animals or through small obstructed views. If I am laying prone and comfy at 800, taking my sweet time to make the proper adjustments and ensuring a perfect shot, should I have gotten closer? Have you fired during a quick window or at a moving animal?

Its funny, everyone talks about detection. Fact is, if you kill an animal - most the time you weren't detected. So it was fair because you COULD have been detected? There are LR factors that ruin a shot or cause detection also. The fact is, we go out buying gadgets and working on skills to not be detected. If someone gave you a set of SITKA and some scent away for free would you use it? Do you already use it?

Based on the detection logic, a kill is only fair if you are wearing plain clothes, using a primitive weapon, standing in a clearing smelling like human.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

RandomElk16 said:


> Based on the detection logic, a kill is only fair if you are wearing plain clothes, using a primitive weapon, standing in a clearing smelling like human.


Yup.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

So what is the minimum amount of energy _required_ to kill an animal?

I've seen lots of numbers like 900ft-lbs or 1000ft-lbs online and in literature... but then read in the regulations for handguns that it must have at least 500ft-lbs at the muzzle.

Where is _that_ line drawn?


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

PBH said:


> And this, right here ^^^, is the problem with many (not all) "long range" shooters. Do they even ask those questions? do they consider getting closer, or do they actually look for the further shot? that's the problem in my mind. You attempt to get as close as you can prior to taking a shot. Is 1000 yards the closest you can get -- if so, and you have the equipment and skills necessary to make that shot, then take it.
> 
> How many people take those shots without the right equipment? Without the right training? Without the right knowledge and skillset? That's the problem with today's long range shooting -- there are too many people that _think_ that it's OK because they own a Lapua. the size of your pocketbook shouldn't be the determining factor.
> 
> ...


Most "long range hunters" i have heard talking are looking for that 800+ yard shot. they pass up closer shots just so they can try a longer shot.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Its funny, everyone talks about detection. Fact is, if you kill an animal - most the time you weren't detected. So it was fair because you COULD have been detected? ... The fact is, we go out buying gadgets and working on skills to not be detected. If someone gave you a set of SITKA and some scent away for free would you use it? Do you already use it?
> 
> Based on the detection logic, a kill is only fair if you are wearing plain clothes, using a primitive weapon, standing in a clearing smelling like human.


At 1000 yards, would an elk perceive you as a threat assuming that it could see you moving?

Whether I'm wearing Sitka and spray scent away on me or not, at 20 yards an elk is going to perceive me as a threat if it detects me. That's the difference.

If you screw up at 1000 yards, and snap a twig by accident, does that elk give a ****? I doubt it. I'd bet from that distance you could even take the time to lay down (undetected), get comfortable, read your index card, range the distance, adjust your turrets, check the windage, radio your spotter on the next ridge over, pull out your cell phone and check the relative humidity, use your gps to verify elevation......

At 20 yards, you don't even get to blink, or you're busted. But i suppose some of you guys have never had that rush of being that close to a living wild animal.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

PBH - clearly the closer you are to a game animal, the greater the chance of being perceived as a threat. That that is totally situational though. I've been close enough to wild deer to reach out and touch them, but at that moment, I was not a perceived threat. I've driven up to pronghorn close enough to reach out the truck door - same thing. No threat. I've also been busted by elk from a mile away, only to push them into the next drainage. I've had to switch fishing holes on different occasions because a mule deer buck decided to wade through the hole I was casting to, and I've been "encouraged" to leave a stream by a medium size bull moose. An archer in a tree stand can be harder for a game animal to detect and perceive as a threat, than a hunter on the next ridge 1,500 yards away. It all depends on the situation, how hard the animals have been pushed, and a hundred other variables. Which is why I think that is a weak litmus.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I have been on both sides of the fence with this at times and it has taken a lot of personal insight to get to where I stand today.

By and large I am a bowhunter. I have hunted with a rifle just a handful of times in the past 10 years. I still shoot a fair amount but I would far rather hunt with a bow for many personal reasons. i find it:


more difficult
requires more skill IMO
more intimate
has less people
more enjoyable to shoot a bow more than a gun
While I have had some pretty good success bowhunting, overall my success rates historically has been far higher with a firearm. Getting close just requires more in the field work. Back when I was really into shooting firearms A LOT I shot a doe antelope from 768 yards. It is the longest shot on game that I have ever attempted. It was a one shot kill and I was prepared for it. My wife and brother were like "WOW what a shot". I was more like "ho hum". I prepared for the shot. I took everything into account. I squeezed the trigger. The antelope dropped. I killed it.

I got basically no more satisfaction than target shooting. It wasn't hunting to me. It is in fact the last time I pulled a trigger on any big game.

To each their own. If it gets some guys/gals off that is fine. It doesn't me. To me it is not hunting. It is shooting. I have no interest in it. I would rather have a hunt get my heart pumping and make me feel alive. It is in fact the only reason that I hunt anymore. I thought for a while that I was going to give it up. I couldn't. It was the requirement and act of getting close that called me back. I don't need the meat per se. The supermarket is super close and I typically have several friends that are willing to give me game meat. Nothing could ever substitute drawing back on a big game animal when I have put myself in position to do so. If it is a pissed off big bull all the better.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

"If you screw up at 1000 yards, and snap a twig by accident, does that elk give a ****? I doubt it. I'd bet from that distance you could even take the time to lay down (undetected), get comfortable, read your index card, range the distance, adjust your turrets, check the windage, radio your spotter on the next ridge over, pull out your cell phone and check the relative humidity, use your gps to verify elevation......"--PBH

Having been there, that is exactly how it goes. But you forgot the part about firing up the stove and cooking lunch, while walking around to stay warm. Everyone talking at a normal level, while the animal never even looks in your direction.


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## hotspot (Jan 12, 2009)

Video's like this are further evidence that the state of Utah needs to keep the rifle hunts for LE elk in the prime of the rut. So hard to get close to them. Now you can comfortably shoot them from a long way out!:mrgreen:

Hoping to get a sponsor here soon, maybe even a possible write up in a mag. Then I'm legit!!


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

PBH said:


> But i suppose some of you guys have never had that rush of being that close to a living wild animal.


This is what I don't get -- why assume that one would not find both interesting? Getting close, or shooting 500 yards? Why the disdain?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

SLC -- I don't know. There's just something about smelling them, hearing them breathe, looking them in the eye. I'm sure there is a rush of being able to hit a target from extreme distances. I have family that partakes in this kind of hunting. A typical outing usually consists of the "what's the furthest object your range finder can range" game. 

To me, there is something more to hunting than simply spotting a target and pulling the trigger. And that has nothing to do with my custom laser engraved adjustable turrets.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Haha... This all makes me laugh though. Every year there is only 1 of my hunts that remains constant - my muzzleloader deer hunt. Nothing long range about it.

So yeah, I can stand on both sides, because in my eyes there is no fence. If you take a clean ethical kill and so do I, I am not better than you. I am not more ethical than you. I am not more of a sportsman than you.

This year I bumped an elk herd at 10 yards. Why did I pass on those 300 elk, and shoot one further later? Cleaner shot opportunity.

Also, for all these up close archery guys... Every year I photograph bucks in the rut. The last few years I have gone on the extended with friends. I am more than surprised at how stupid the bucks are. Big ol bucks, just staring at you wondering if they should mount you or run. Hell, guys even wear silly hats that are doe heads. Fair chase? Difficult? Ever year I go I see dead bucks. I have also come across wounded bucks and seen many instances when a bad shot with an arrow leads to a lost buck. Ethical and fair.

Am I bashing archery? Not at all.. I am just showing that no style, weapon, or person is perfect. We are all sportsman, we all have the ability to select a comfortable ethical shot, we all are on this forum because we care about more than just the kill. We care about the hobby, the passion, and the tradition. Why else would I get on and argue with you schmucks if I didnt care about you. If you say you hunt LR and care about the animal and clean kills, I respect you. If you say you worry about snapping twigs and want the 10 yard shot(and have mastered your bow and kill shots) I respect you.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Skally said:


> Most "long range hunters" i have heard talking are looking for that 800+ yard shot. they pass up closer shots just so they can try a longer shot.


Not the crowd I run with. I mean, who would pass up a close shot? That's ridiculous! I know very few who would try to get closer though.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

PBH said:


> SLC -- I don't know. There's just something about smelling them, hearing them breathe, looking them in the eye. I'm sure there is a rush of being able to hit a target from extreme distances. I have family that partakes in this kind of hunting. A typical outing usually consists of the "what's the furthest object your range finder can range" game.
> 
> To me, there is something more to hunting than simply spotting a target and pulling the trigger. And that has nothing to do with my custom laser engraved adjustable turrets.


That's sounds great, and I get that -- but your comment suggested that 'whoever does long range can't understand what you like about short range.' That's mere speculation, or a judgment by you on others. Seems unnecessary to me.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I may be a little less impressed with someone that shoots a buck at 1000+ yards with their rifle over someone who does it at 40 but I won't question their ethics as long as they feel 100% good about the shot they take.

What does bug me about many of these LR hunting videos is that most are trying to make money or get free gear from companies for advertising on these videos. I think one reason your seeing all these LR video with these advertisements, is it is easier to film from a further distance.
Have any of you guys seen that youtube video of the guy letting his teenage daughter shoot a buck at 680 yards?
After she hits it, you can hear the guy say that he really didn't think that she would hit it.
Then they don't even go after it because it was almost dark and when they do go after it in the morning, the buck is lost. 
In that case, I wished someone like that would get charged for poaching. Really ticks me off.
Here's the video: 



The shot starts at about the 4:30 mark.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

ridgetop said:


> I may be a little less impressed with someone that shoots a buck at 1000+ yards with their rifle over someone who does it at 40 but I won't question their ethics as long as they feel 100% good about the shot they take.
> 
> What does bug me about many of these LR hunting videos is that most are trying to make money or get free gear from companies for advertising on these videos. I think one reason your seeing all these LR video with these advertisements, is it is easier to film from a further distance.
> Have any of you guys seen that youtube video of the guy letting his teenage daughter shoot a buck at 680 yards?
> ...


Whats interesting is that a ton of archers give deer the night to die out... Some never recover their deer or elk the next day either.

Every weapon, every distance, can suffer from these types of things. If you have a tag it is not poaching. Lost deer happens. Now, having the moral compass to notch your tag determines what kind of person you are.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Whats interesting is that a ton of archers give deer the night to die out... Some never recover their deer or elk the next day either.
> 
> Every weapon, every distance, can suffer from these types of things. If you have a tag it is not poaching. Lost deer happens. Now, having the moral compass to notch your tag determines what kind of person you are.


The point is the fact that he didn't think she would hit the buck but when she did, the attitude was.... well we'll just come back in the morning.


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## jshuag (Jan 16, 2014)

OH MAN! 16 pages here we COME!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I snuck from 50 yards to 500 to shoot a deer once because I felt like it. I _am_ the most unethical man in the world.......stay thirsty my friends.-------SS


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

RandomElk16 said:


> Whats interesting is that a ton of archers give deer the night to die out... Some never recover their deer or elk the next day either.
> 
> Every weapon, every distance, can suffer from these types of things. If you have a tag it is not poaching. Lost deer happens. Now, having the moral compass to notch your tag determines what kind of person you are.


Even towards the last of the video, 1350, past his shooting range, but gonna go for it, and then not even a clear shot- these are the guys that give the ones that do not agree all the ammo they need. No wonder the comments are disabled for it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> SLC -- I don't know. There's just something about smelling them, hearing them breathe, looking them in the eye. I'm sure there is a rush of being able to hit a target from extreme distances. I have family that partakes in this kind of hunting. A typical outing usually consists of the "what's the furthest object your range finder can range" game.
> 
> To me, there is something more to hunting than simply spotting a target and pulling the trigger. And that has nothing to do with my custom laser engraved adjustable turrets.


On my brother's muzzy elk hunt this year he had a decent bull at 150 yards, he missed the shot. It wasn't an unethical shot. It was well within the gun and bullet's ability to kill the elk effectively. It was well within his ability to shoot based upon the extensive time he put in at the range. He just missed. Sometimes it happens. The next day we had a great bull at 25 yards. He never took the shot because he didn't feel he had a good one. I wish he was standing where I was 5 feet away, because I had a great shot!

It's hunting. Being that close to a bull snorting, spitting, and screaming was really, really cool. Especially a really nice bull like that. But I would have been just as stoked if he shot the smaller bull a longer distance away.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

fastcamo said:


> Even towards the last of the video, 1350, past his shooting range, but gonna go for it, and then not even a clear shot- these are the guys that give the ones that do not agree all the ammo they need. No wonder the comments are disabled for it.


I didnt watch it yet.. Just responded that it happens with all weapons


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Broadside_Shot said:


> When the actual "Fame" and "Look How Good I Am" means more than any other part of the hunt, then a person can justify taking a 1036 or a 1296 yard shot.


Your absolutely right. 
Zac made a couple of poor shots on a great buck this year because he was more concerned about getting the best video footage possible, which caused him to loose his focus and miss the buck he was shooting at. 
But he does have a great talent with his filming abilities.


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