# Your idea of the "perfect fix"



## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

Everybody has ideas of what would make our LE drawing system better. Here's my idea. I'd love to hear your comments for and against as well as your own remedies.


Example only - Numbers are for convenience

LE any weapon mule deer hunt (all units excluding premium)

100 tags overall based on the same information tag numbers are currently determined under

75 management tags (3 points or less on one side) - These tags are available to anyone no matter how many points you have.

25 LE Mature buck tags (any antlered deer) - Applicants must have a minimum of 5 Mature buck tag bonus points to be eligible for this permit. In order to obtain a Mature buck bonus point the applicant must purchase them at the same cost as any other bonus point, at the rate of 1 per year. Yes, this means no chance of drawing a LE deer tag until the 6th year. That's the sacrifice.

I think this would solve a few issues.

#1 - Our LE units could really use cleaning out some of the management bucks. Hunters aren't willing to shoot these types of bucks after waiting so long for a tag, but a buck with better potential to become a great buck later on is quickly shot even when small. The management bucks are left to grow old while the others are not.

#2 - I believe a large majority of LE tag holders shoot deer that are 4 years old at best, many of them 2 or 3 years old. Most of them feel these bucks are a great trophy and there is nothing wrong with that. There are a few hunters however that would love a realistic chance at something larger than a 24" buck. The problem rises when the 75% who are happy with a smaller buck, and the 25% who want a larger buck are forced into the same drawing pool. 

#3 - Many believe that Utah doesn't have any "middle ground" LE deer units. We have the premium units with no realistic chance of drawing unless you have max points, or we have all the rest. The chances of finding a 180" class buck on all the rest is pretty slim, no matter how long you are willing to wait. Yes, there are some every year, but not very many. I believe this change would allow units like the Book cliffs and Vernon to fill the request to let more people hunt bucks they would love to shoot anyway, as well as give others a chance to harvest an older age class of deer as well.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

After dealing with surrounding states,
I like Utah's draw better than most others.

I like the 50/50 split, It's the only real chance young kid's have at most LE & OIAL tags.

Half the buck's shot now in the Book's and on Vernon are management bucks.
And it's more like 18" to 22".....
The Bookcliffs deer quality has been dropping for a decade,
I'm not sure a management hunt there would do much.

I don't mind Nevada's squared draw system,
But it sucks having to buy the NR hunting license to apply.

Same with Arizona,
Not very NR friendly , plus you have to buy the license there too.

Wyomings 75/25 split sucks, 
Unless you have max points, (11).
I'll get one good elk and deer permit there soon, but then that's over..


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

My idea of the perfect fix is to just have double or triple the amount of each species so we can just triple the amount of tags given. Easy peezy, right? ;-)

With the realization that demand will forever exceed supply with hunting from here on out, I actually like Utah's bonus point system currently. But give it not much longer before the point system will become so huge that it will be obsolete. 

Take the Pauns any weapon hunt, for example. These are very rough estimates off the top of my head, so take it with a grain of salt. In the 2016 application there were 495 people with 10 points or more. It's going to take approximately 9 years to clear all those people out of the deer pool. 

But in those same 9 years there will be between 1600-1700 hunters that enter that same area with 10+ points. That is over 3 times as many people in the same point areas as there are today. Which, if all things remain static, will take 30+ years to clear those people out. You can see how this just continues to compound itself as time goes on. This is just one unit, for one species. I suspect the OIL outlook on this is much worse. 

I don't know exactly where the cut off is, but there is a number in each pool where if you currently have below that level, you simply will not see that tag in your lifetime. And once we get to that point with all species, what is the purpose of a bonus point system?


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## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

I like the idea of drawing a tag and shooting whatever makes *me* happy without some jackwad telling me what I should be shooting.:grin:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

We don't need nor want a fix. Utah has the best draw system compared to surrounding states. What we do need is more animals, more moose, mt goats, deer, elk etc.

As Packout has mentioned in the past, eventually there might be a cap on the total number of bonus points one can maintain, for sake of argument lets say its 25. Once people hit 25 pts the pyramid begins to flatten out putting people on more of an even footing (and pretty much blowing up the draw odds for the top tier). I'll bet when that goes into effect, people put in for anything that gives them a tag with <25 pts.


-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PS: Anyone can just buy a tag for any unit in the state... don't forget, rich guys can hunt every year. 

So like I tell my boy, don't sweat the draw odds... keep getting those straight A's in school, get a good college degree then go get a great job making a couple hundred thousand a year... THEN you can be one of those guys who just goes and buys tags every year. Completely bypass all the suckers standing in the points line.


-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Honest, I used to think Utah's system was a pretty great one compared to others. However, my opinion has been changing more and more as I think of my kids starting to apply in another ten years or so. With the skew between demand and supply as steep as it is, I think a pure draw 1 entry per name per species type setup is the only "fair" way to go. Sure, maybe allow 3 entries per species so you can try separate units or throw all your eggs in one basket... But then again having to only choose 1 would help limit your competition. In this scenario you'd let residents and nonresidents apply for everything and it wouldn't matter much. No need to track point creep, no fear of missing a year, less incentive to put in mom, Grandma and everybody else who might mentor a hunt to someone who cares as note their isn't a"gauranteed" tag ever. Increase the waiting periods on LE elk, deer, and pronghorn to 10 years. 
Or heck, make everybody choose one Oial and one LE species only... But again, with a straight draw.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Make that OIL tag a OIL tag, once you draw one you are out of all the rest of the pools for OIL. Then with LE hunts once you draw a LE for a animal then you are done with LE hunts for that animal period. Only allow one deer application a year, either a general hunt or a LE hunt. No more being able to apply for a LE hunt and a general hunt in the same year. 

These would get people moving through the system faster than a lot of other ideas.

In all reality there is no way to fix the system. We only have a finite amount of animals and with more hunters entering the pool each year there will never be enough to go around.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well Johny,
If Utah ever go's back to a strait random draw, 
I want all my bonus point money refunded.;-)

Heck, I've got $110.00 just in mountain lions!


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

The only thing I would change with the draw is that I would draw the OIL first and then the LE. As it now stands, if you draw both a LE and an OIL tag in the same year, you get the LE tag and are ineligible for the OIL. I would have it the other way around. (you get the OIL tag and not the LE)


As for the rest, I think Utah has as good a plan as can be hoped for. Almost all of the plans I hear to "improve" the LE/OIL draws are basically rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I think a quick fix would be to shorten up the buck/doe ratios on the LEs.
Right now it's set at 25-35/100 (which is huge) Leaves very little room to ever adjust tag numbers much.

If it was set at 25-30/100 and having 27 as the trigger point for manage tags.

For example, have 20% of the total tags be set aside as management tags.
Then if the post buck/doe ratio is under or over 27 but still inside the 25-30, give more or less management tags for that year. If the 3 year average falls below or rises above the 25-30 ratio, then raise or lower total tags. 
In most cases, more tags would be given out if this was done. IMHO


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

elkantlers said:


> I like the idea of drawing a tag and shooting whatever makes *me* happy without some jackwad telling me what I should be shooting.:grin:


Then put in for a tag that allows that.

If there weren't a few people giving us some guidelines there would be a whole lot more jackwads running around out of control and we might have to start hunting them.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> Well Johny,
> If Utah ever go's back to a strait random draw,
> I want all my bonus point money refunded.;-)
> 
> Heck, I've got $110.00 just in mountain lions!


It's simple, caveat emptor--buyer beware! Just make it so that there is a 1-3 year lag between announcing the new system and implementing it to give you a chance to burn them. Just like it was OK that there was never any guarantee that Utah would offer cow moose tags again, but you could still buy points for years, that is a conscious risk you chose to take.

And for what it is worth, I do still have points scattered from turkey, swan, bear to all the antlerless tags to GS deer, le pronghorn, mtn goat, and desert bighorn. After May's customary "you lose again" email I'll add the rest of the Oial species (minus bison) and LE deer to the pile and will continue to do so until the system changes or I die. It just isn't a fair system when it comes down to it.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

I hate the 50/50 split for OIAL tags. It was a good idea at first, but in the future it will screw the young people and give half the tags go to super old guys/gals who probably can't take full advantage of them. For OIAL, I'd say either:

1) Run the draw like we do now WITHOUT reserving tags specifically for top point holders (just an extra chance in the draw for each point)

or

2) Do like Nevada/Montana do and square bonus points, without reserving tags for top point holders.

Both have their advantages/disadvantages, and I'd be fine with either.

The only problem is that now we could never make that change without really pissing off the people that are almost at the top. If I were the boss I'd probably grandfather everyone in who was within 5 years of drawing and then tell everyone else they were out of luck. Realistically, though, I think capping points at 25 is the best way we can handle the problem without making anyone feel too screwed-over. I'd support that.

For LE, I'd probably divide deer and elk into "premium" and "regular" just like we do with deer. I'd designate the top 3-5 units as premium for each species based on the previous year's demand. Premium would be drawn same as I proposed for OIAL. Regular would continue the 50/50 split.

For general, I'd consider everyone's first choice first and then draw for 2nd, 3rd, etc. choices without consideration of preference points and without taking away their preference points for drawing them.

For antlerless, I'd draw cow moose like I proposed for OIAL, and keep the others as they are. Part of me wants to make them 50/50 split, but that's just for selfish reasons. The draw sure was boring for me last year, going in with 0 elk and deer points and 1 pronghorn point. Having the split would make it a little more exciting.

(Full disclosure: I only started applying for LE/OIAL a few years ago, so I'm biased. I'm currently screwed as far as OIAL and some LE tags are concerned.)


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I've been talking about capping points for a long time-- say 25 or so. That would allow them to maintain the 50/50 split (if they want to), rewarding people who put in for an extended period of time (seems like 1/3 of one's life in a long time), and still give others the chance to catch up.

Now, this is just my opinion.... I sure think we try to make it too complicated when looking for solutions. I'm all for simplifying things. 

I disagree that "Utah doesn't have any "middle ground" LE deer units". I think Utah has a wide variety of mule deer buck hunting strategies. From a mix of Gen management to a mix of LE management, to a mix of Premium Management. 

Sometimes (ok most of the time) people throw numbers of inches around like popcorn in a movie theater. It makes numbers kind of less meaningful. 180" is a Pauns/Henry Mtns type hunt with the chance at 200"+. That is the more realistic. The Oak Cr and Diamond are more of a 160" type hunt with the chance at a 190"+. And the Vernon, Books, etc are more of a 150" hunt with a chance at a 180"+. Then you have the LE ML hunts that offer a wide variety of experiences. 

If "many" truly believe Utah doesn't have a middle ground of management strategies-- then the masses are mistaken or their expectations are way out of place. Too much social media publicizing the 15, 190" bucks off the Pauns and not showing the other 120 hunters going home with a 120-180" buck or nothing at all. 

The biggest problem we have is people are waiting 10+ years and their expectations grow each year-- yet the bucks' antlers don't...... Then the hunter feels so much pressure that it taints the experience if the "numbers" don't add up. 

Problem is any idea that can work will mean major change for the majority of hunters. And who wants to give up "freedoms" and "rights" in today's world?

..


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## Gledeasy (Mar 23, 2014)

Packout said:


> Sometimes (ok most of the time) people throw numbers of inches around like popcorn in a movie theater. It makes numbers kind of less meaningful. 180" is a Pauns/Henry Mtns type hunt with the chance at 200"+. That is the more realistic. The Oak Cr and Diamond are more of a 160" type hunt with the chance at a 190"+. And the Vernon, Books, etc are more of a 150" hunt with a chance at a 180"+. Then you have the LE ML hunts that offer a wide variety of experiences.
> 
> If "many" truly believe Utah doesn't have a middle ground of management strategies-- then the masses are mistaken or their expectations are way out of place. Too much social media publicizing the 15, 190" bucks off the Pauns and not showing the other 120 hunters going home with a 120-180" buck or nothing at all.
> 
> ...


I really couldn't agree with this more. Too many things I enjoyed growing up for the experience have now become so tainted with competitiveness (and I'm not that old).

Social media has really bolstered expectations beyond reality. I remember what my expectations were going into my first experience on a LE hunt. What I had read on the Internet and how things actually were couldn't have been more opposite.

I've now changed my philosophies that no tag is worth the time it takes to draw. I like harvesting a trophy animal as much as the next, but I'm more about finding opportunity to actually go hunt.

As mentioned demand is plain out higher than supply. Nothing realistically can be done about that.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Clarq said:


> I hate the 50/50 split for OIAL tags. It was a good idea at first, but in the future it will screw the young people and give half the tags go to super old guys/gals who probably can't take full advantage of them. For OIAL, I'd say either:


So why should the young people get bonuses? Whats taking full advantage of a tag? I would think if anyone would take full advantage of the tag it would be some old guy that has been putting into it for years and finally got it instead of some snot nosed flat brimmer thinking its his right to get the tag.

I worry about my grand kids ever drawing a tag in Utah but that is no reason to take anything away from the old gray hairs that have been playing this game for 20 some years, they have just as much right to a tag as anyone. Chances are them old gray hairs would probably hike your rear into the ground on any given day anyway.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Straight draw. Perhaps, set the date 2020. That gives point holders 3yrs to burn points. I say this sitting on 2 decades worth of moose points, and a pile of elk and antelope points. But I also say this with 2 boys, who will never have a realistic chance to draw anything. The reality is anything short of that and its not a straight fair deal. Also, why doesn't Utah make NR buy a license like surrounding states? That seems like a no brainer, and a small money maker. And, making you front the money for the tags you put in for. This would discourage a lot of guys, and again, the DWR can make interest on the "loan". Lastly, across the board waiting periods. I know the guides will scream to high heaven, but buying a tag through a banquet, or convention, comes with the same 5 year wait as every other tag.
I know its not pretty, but neither is turning 12 knowing you will never get a shot at a tag. At least straight draw you can pretend, like I do when I buy a scratcher in Idaho, that I have a chance.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

Packout said:


> Sometimes (ok most of the time) people throw numbers of inches around like popcorn in a movie theater. It makes numbers kind of less meaningful. 180" is a Pauns/Henry Mtns type hunt with the chance at 200"+. That is the more realistic. The Oak Cr and Diamond are more of a 160" type hunt with the chance at a 190"+. And the Vernon, Books, etc are more of a 150" hunt with a chance at a 180"+. Then you have the LE ML hunts that offer a wide variety of experiences.
> 
> If "many" truly believe Utah doesn't have a middle ground of management strategies-- then the masses are mistaken or their expectations are way out of place. Too much social media publicizing the 15, 190" bucks off the Pauns and not showing the other 120 hunters going home with a 120-180" buck or nothing at all.
> 
> ...


Great points Packout and I guess I would have to agree that there really are more options than my previous comment eluded to. And the numbers certainly do get way out of hand.

After finally drawing a LE tag and having a great hunt without killing the buck of my dreams I'm 100% on board with Gledeasy's statement. Any tag I can get my hands on is a great tag and I'll make sure to enjoy it.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I really like Catherder's idea of simply changing the drawing order and making the OIAL species first instead of LE deer, elk, and pronghorn.
I hadn't really thought of that before and it really seems like a simple, non-invasive, and intuitive change that could easily be made.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

derekp1999 said:


> I really like Catherder's idea of simply changing the drawing order and making the OIAL species first instead of LE deer, elk, and pronghorn.
> I hadn't really thought of that before and it really seems like a simple, non-invasive, and intuitive change that could easily be made.


But who is this really going to effect? One or two guys a year that might actually get drawn for more then one tag? Most guys that I know that have high points don't put in for both tags the same year because they know there close and self regulate there choices.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

muddydogs said:


> So why should the young people get bonuses? Whats taking full advantage of a tag? I would think if anyone would take full advantage of the tag it would be some old guy that has been putting into it for years and finally got it instead of some snot nosed flat brimmer thinking its his right to get the tag.
> 
> I worry about my grand kids ever drawing a tag in Utah but that is no reason to take anything away from the old gray hairs that have been playing this game for 20 some years, they have just as much right to a tag as anyone. Chances are them old gray hairs would probably hike your rear into the ground on any given day anyway.


Hehehe... my bad. Occasionally my 22 year-old brain doesn't think to be too considerate. I don't mean to bash too much on the old folks. My grandpa hunted deer well into his 70's, but... he had some limitations. If he had drawn a mountain goat or sheep tag at that age, it would have been very, very difficult for him. If the point system continues long enough, all of the people at the top of the point pool are going to be in the same boat as he was. I'd rather see a system that gives the guys in their 40's, 50's, and 60's more chances to draw. That's why I like the bonus point squared system they use in Nevada and Montana. Young guys like me face terrible odds, while the people who have been in it awhile have a pretty good shot, without having to wait for everyone ahead of them to draw.

By the way... there are no "bonuses" for young people under the systems I proposed. Each one gives advantages to people who have been in it the longest.

You're proving my point, though. No way to change things up without pissing off the guys who have been in it awhile. I get it; you have certain expectations because the system that has been in place for 20+ years has given you certain expectations. For those reasons, I've actually said on this forum that I don't think we ought to change the way things are done. You can read that thread here, if you're interested:

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/163313-new-hunts-2017-a.html

In that thread, here's what I posted:



Clarq said:


> First I'll just say that I abhor and despise the use of bonus points on species that are as hard to draw as our OIAL species are. This is because I'm young and I entered the game late. I currently have 1 point for desert sheep. Every single person who entered the Utah desert sheep drawing 23 years ago either drew a tag, died or gave up. But 23 years from now, I'll still have plenty of company, and be years away from drawing. Bonus point systems are great if you get in right when they start, but with each passing year young guys like me are more and more disadvantaged. With the OIAL species, point creep just hits way too hard.
> 
> That being said...
> 
> When you create a bonus point system you create an expectation. People expect the current system to continue as they plan for the future. IMO, once that expectation is in place, it shouldn't be changed.


That's my realistic view of how we ought to go about doing things. Like anything else in government or policy, we make decisions, our kids have to deal with the consequences. But... the OP asked for my version of "the perfect fix", and I let him know what I thought. Is it selfish? Sure is! :mrgreen: But some could argue that it's selfish for the people who have been in it awhile to keep the system as-is. After all, the system has made it so that we who are just starting have far worse prospects at drawing than you ever did.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

derekp1999 said:


> I really like Catherder's idea of simply changing the drawing order and making the OIAL species first instead of LE deer, elk, and pronghorn.
> I hadn't really thought of that before and it really seems like a simple, non-invasive, and intuitive change that could easily be made.


I thought about this one a bunch.

Over the 'bonus point' time frame, 
I've drawn 6 LE permits that could cost me a OIAL tag.

I'd love to see them change, and draw OIAL permits first.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

muddydogs said:


> But who is this really going to effect? One or two guys a year that might actually get drawn for more then one tag? Most guys that I know that have high points don't put in for both tags the same year because they know there close and self regulate there choices.


It won't affect many... but does it need to affect many to be an effective change?

If given a choice between a deer tag or a desert bighorn sheep tag... which would you prefer? How about a pronghorn tag or a mountain goat tag? What about an elk tag or a moose tag?

The vast majority of guys that I know would take the OIAL tag without much question. There are exceptions... one might take a Henry's deer tag, perhaps a San Juan elk tag... but you'd be a fool to take a Wasatch elk tag, a Book Cliffs deer tag, or any pronghorn tag over an OIAL tag in my opinion.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

I too think that OIAL should be drawn before LE. Not sure why it's not that way. The only reason I can think of for someone to prefer drawing an LE instead of OIAL is if they were pretty close to max points in OIAL and just coming off a waiting period or very few points in an LE.

If I could change the tag allocation for OIAL, LE and PLE, I'd leave it as is, but after the bonus permits were given to the top point holders, I'd square the remaining applicant's points and conduct the draw. I have a friend that has been putting in for Buffalo for over 20 years and his granddaughter drew with one point. He was ecstatic for her, but still something seems wrong with that picture. I'd like to minimize that kind of occurrence.


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## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

Several years ago my wife had 8 pronghorn points and 8 desert Bighorn sheep points. That year we knew she would be guaranteed a pronghorn tag for the area we were applying. Due to other commitments I knew we wouldn't be able to make the pronghorn hunt work that year so I just applied her for a point. In doing so, I had no idea what that decision would lead to. With 8 points, she got a Desert Bighorn sheep tag. If I would have applied her for the pronghorn, she would not have draw the DBS and may never have drawn. EVER...

I fully support having the OIL draws first.

Also, I would like to do away with species specific OIL points. I would like the OIL points to be just that. Good for any OIL species with the ability to change what we put in for from year to year. I have 20 DBS points but would trade them for Bison in a heartbeat.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

elkantlers said:


> Also, I would like to do away with species specific OIL points. I would like the OIL points to be just that. Good for any OIL species with the ability to change what we put in for from year to year. I have 20 DBS points but would trade them for Bison in a heartbeat.


What do you then do with the NR's who have been collecting points for all species?

-DallanC


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Simply put, if this whole philosophy of LE for the masses must be bad or we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. As I see it, the current LE system must go. Of course, you guys that have spent money under this system need to be reimbursed or something, but hunter numbers need to be regulated for the benefit of a good healthy herd, not some dream of a promised magical trophy hunt for a few lucky people. I hear stuff like "quality hunt", "quality animals", etc, etc which are at best arbitrary definitions being used to justify LE hunts, but now I am starting to hear from you trophy hunters that the grand promise is not only getting out of your reach but even if you are the lucky person to draw, your expectations are not being fulfilled.

In the old days...I know, you get tired of hearing about the old days...we had "trophy hunters" in the field. These guys hunted hard, enjoyed their hunts, and as one would expect, bagged a "trophy animal" in direct proportion to the "natural numbers" of trophy animals in a healthy herd. The rest of us bagged our "trophys", big and small, loved our hunts and didn't bitch. OK, I guess I better not take this any farther...anyway, 

This is what I propose:
(1) end the LE system, managing hunter numbers for herd health(biology) AND
(2) set aside a couple small areas...using as a model say Antelope Island or the Henries and sell/auction ALL the tags to the highest bidders. These tags MUST be sold/auctioned by the DWR assuring 100% of the huge returns stay with the DWR for DWR purposes.
(3) End most of the "special weapons" hunts replacing them with a general hunt lasting a much longer time. Giving all those wishing to "go hunting" several months to harvest their animal and not being forced into choosing the timing of their hunt based upon some arbitrary dates set by administrators listening to those groups with the loudest voices.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

I'm going to hear it for this one. Give the non res. a tag and refund the $ for their points and change the rules to the same as us residents have to do. Of course it wont happen cause of the money hungry you know who s. Let the fun begin :shock:


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

DallanC said:


> What do you then do with the NR's who have been collecting points for all species?
> 
> -DallanC


Speaking as a nonresident, that's an easy call. Give us all our OIAL points we've accumulated. I paid for them, it's the only fair way to do it...:shock:

Really though, there is no fair way to change the system after years of playing it a certain way. I guess they could keep pre-existing NR points in place per specific species and any points going forward could be "general" OIAL points.


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## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

DallanC said:


> What do you then do with the NR's who have been collecting points for all species?
> 
> -DallanC


I should have been more specific. This is for Residents only. Residents are only allowed to apply for 1 OIL permit per year. I think we should be able to change around from year to year if we choose to.

Non-Residents already can apply for everything so they can stay the way they are.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

elkantlers said:


> I should have been more specific. This is for Residents only. Residents are only allowed to apply for 1 OIL permit per year. I think we should be able to change around from year to year if we choose to.
> 
> Non-Residents already can apply for everything so they can stay the way they are.


The mountain goat guys who are sitting on 15-18 points right now wouldn't like that idea. The moment you make that change, they go from drawing in 1-5 years to drawing in 15-20+. :shock: I guarantee you we would see a mass exodus from the moose pool, and mountain goats would be a likely target.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Clarq said:


> I guarantee you we would see a mass exodus from the moose pool, and mountain goats would be a likely target.


That would certainly be my plan.

-DallanC


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Clarq said:


> My grandpa hunted deer well into his 70's, but... he had some limitations. If he had drawn a mountain goat or sheep tag at that age, it would have been very, very difficult for him.


I understand what your saying, I'm close to 50 with bad knees and realize that by the time I draw a sheep or goat tag I will be in no condition to hunt them. I know in this selfish world that most don't think like me but once I draw a moose tag I will move on to Bison since that would be about the only thing I might be able to hunt if I live long enough and have no intentions of jumping into the sheep or goat tag pool. While I am not late to the hunting game I spent 10 years chasing waterfowl between hunting big game and didn't buy any points for them years so I'm towards the bottom of the points game as well.

For me its about the hunt so I am happy with a deer and elk tag with a cow tag ever other year so far while waiting for a chance at a good bull or moose. I guess I'm not into the mine is bigger then yours game and am just happy to get to hunt some every year.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

The "perfect fix" has already been mentioned, but requires more than a rearrangement of how we manage hunters. 

If we are serious about the next generation of hunters, that is the direction we should be working towards, or they will be left proposing more chair shuffling on a ship that is even further sunk.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

My Fix

Overall change the system from a 50/50 to a 100% bonus point system. Move CMWU's into the Non Resident Draw. Make a 1:1 ratio on CMWU's permits sold outside of the draw to permits in the draw.

LE Deer 
· Only have the Henry's and Pauns as LE units
o Early Archery - August 1st - 31st (5%)
o Mid Archery - September 1st - 30th (25%)
o Early Muzzleloader - October 1st - 8th (10%)
o Early Rifle - October 9th - 16th (15%)
o Mid Rifle - October 18th - October 25th (30%)
o Late Rifle - November 13th - 18th (5%)
o Late Muzzleloader November 7th - 12th (5%)
o Late Archery - November 1st - 30th (5%)

GS Deer 
· Make the Lifetime license holders get points and draw, but do not pay the tag fee when drawn. 
· Dedicated hunters can hunt any season except those with 5% of the tags below. 
o Early Archery - August 1st - 31st (25%)
o Mid Archery - September 1st - 30th (5%)
o Early Muzzleloader - October 1st - 8th (10%)
o Early Rifle - October 9th - 16th (15%)
o Mid Rifle - October 18th - October 25th (30%)
o Late Rifle - November 13th - 18th (5%) 
o Late Muzzleloader November 7th - 12th (5%)
o Late Archery - November 1st - 30th (5%)

LE Elk 
· Move Wasatch, Manti, and Fish Lake into the general season with a 5 point or better rule.
o Early Archery - August 1st - 31st (20%)
o Mid Archery - September 1st - 30th (5%)
o Early Muzzleloader - September 1st - 30th (5%)
o Early Rifle - September 1st - 30th (5%)
o Mid Rifle - October 18th - October 25th (25%)
o Late Rifle - November 13th - 18th (20%) 
o Late Muzzleloader November 7th - 12th (10%)
o Late Archery - November 1st - 30th (10%)

General Elk

· 5 point or better on all open bull units
o Archery August 1 - September 30th 
o Rifle October 9th - October 31st , November 13th -18th 
o Muzzleloader October 1st - 8th , November 7th - 12th 
· Spike units will be a draw
o Early Archery - August 1st - 31st (20%)
o Mid Archery - September 1st - 30th (5%)
o Early Muzzleloader - September 1st - 30th (5%)
o Early Rifle - September 1st - 30th (5%)
o Mid Rifle - October 18th - October 25th (25%)
o Late Rifle - November 13th - 18th (20%) 
o Late Muzzleloader November 7th - 12th (10%)
o Late Archery - November 1st - 30th (10%)

All other species will remain the same


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

goofy elk said:


> After dealing with surrounding states,
> I like Utah's draw better than most others.
> 
> I like the 50/50 split, It's the only real chance young kid's have at most LE & OIAL tags.
> ...


The issue with most draw systems is someone is probably going to get left out.

A 50/50 system is a good system if you are wanting to award those with the most points.

I like a bonus point system better, because your odds only slightly improve each year and every year you have a chance at drawing any tag.

>10% odds a lottery system is the best system, because you do not have to worry about those with an accumulation of points.

20%> odds a 100% preference point system is the best system, because you can cycle people through applicants.

Bonus point systems fall somewhere in between.

Other than general deer applicants will have less than 10% odds in every hunt draw, so there is a case to be made for going to a lottery.

However, if you look at the expo lottery you can see that there would be a lot of people unhappy about not drawing year after year with nothing to show for it other than a combo license.

It is a big catch 22


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Wasn't that long ago that the UDWR took away points I had accumulated (along with 5,000 other hunters) for the ML300. We all lived....... I'm not calling for people to lose points, but sometime in the future hard decisions will need to be made.

Doing the OIL draw last removes 5,000 competitors from the OIL draw. I don't really care either way on that one.

Truelife-- Totally agree with your last post.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Muscle,

Interesting proposal. One thing I noticed is you would have the GS deer mid archery, LE elk mid archery, LE elk early muzzleloader, and LE elk early rifle all taking place on the exact same dates. 

Seems like a lot to be going on at one time. I'm not sure how those archery folk would feel about wearing hunter orange and also competing with not only muzzy hunters, but rifle hunters as well.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Any "perfect fix" would have to address Hunter expectations with regards to 'how often', and 'how big'. I'm not holding my breath for a solution to that problem any time soon. In the meantime, I guess the current draw system is pretty good distribution of a limited supply to an endless demand.-------SS


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> Muscle,
> 
> Interesting proposal. One thing I noticed is you would have the GS deer mid archery, LE elk mid archery, LE elk early muzzleloader, and LE elk early rifle all taking place on the exact same dates.
> 
> Seems like a lot to be going on at one time. I'm not sure how those archery folk would feel about wearing hunter orange and also competing with not only muzzy hunters, but rifle hunters as well.


The idea would by to have only 10-15, 20 max LE hunters across all 3 weapons, so it would be like an OIL hunt where orange would not be required.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

Lots of interesting views and opinions as I knew there would be.

I would also be interested to know how many of those that say Utah has a great system, we should leave it alone have pulled more than one LE tag of any kind in the past 10-15 years. Excluding GS deer tags which some feel are limited entry these days because I can't go to the hardware store and get one like I used to be able to.

Personally I know a couple of guys that have drawn LE deer tagS, LE elk tag, bear tagS, OIAL tag, pronghorn tag, AND a sportsman's or a Henry's premium deer expo tag in the past 20 years. 

I'm sure they are completely in love with the current system.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Seems we get a "system overhaul" thread every spring about this time, LMAO.

Look, the DWR is too concerned about loss of $$$ from applications. There is NO way they are going to make drastic changes to the system unless forced into it.

They were loosing so many app fees from people getting old and dropping out of the process, they instituted the new "Mentor" system. Now that 99 year old grandpa who cant walk will keep buying his license and sending in that app fee, just so his kid or grand kid can maybe go hunt. 

If the DWR dropped bonus points a TON of people with points will drop out. 

So I guess the question to those wanting to drop points... if the DWR has to make up the tag fee shortfall, how much more are you willing to pay for your license costs? Double? Triple? Personally I think costs are way way to cheap. 10 years ago I mentioned I thought tags should cost 5x their current cost. I haven't thought about it until today... but I still think thats fair. Sure it prices out alot of people, but the price increase would offset losses from people quitting. 

Honestly, lets just do a dutch auction for all tags. You put in what you are willing to spend on a tag, the DWR sorts the list of applicants by how much they want to spend. Then they take the top X number of people from the list for whatever amount of tags they have. Some guys will hunt every year (like they already do)... other guys might only hunt every few years (as they already do) as they save up $$.


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Truelife said:


> Lots of interesting views and opinions as I knew there would be.
> 
> I would also be interested to know how many of those that say Utah has a great system, we should leave it alone have pulled more than one LE tag of any kind in the past 10-15 years. Excluding GS deer tags which some feel are limited entry these days because I can't go to the hardware store and get one like I used to be able to.
> 
> ...


You forgot to add that those that can't draw jack with the current system that are totally ticked off at it.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I think the system is pretty good and I have never had an LE tag as a resident of Utah. I drew a Plateau antelope tag as a NR in 2007. No one in my family has ever had an OIL tag. 

I apply in the majority of western states and I haven't seen a system that seems way more fair. With the loophole gone this year, I feel that the general draw system is fair as well. 

Not saying the unit divisions, Buck/doe ratios, etc are perfect, just saying that I think that the distribution system of available tags is ok. That being said; if someone comes up with a better way, I'd be all for it.-------SS


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

I have 16 elk points and would gladly GIVE UP *ALL* of my points to get out of the system we have and give my kids a chance to draw. (I have never drawn a LE elk tag)

I like Idaho's lottery system. I think it's simple and it's fair and it doesn't discourage new hunters from putting in. Also I like that in the Idaho LE game you have to choose your animal, OIL or LE elk or deer etc.

To improve Utah's system:
*1* - Cap points at current max
*2* - Hybrid system - *You can only put in for A or B*
*A-50%* of tags set aside for those that want to play the* points *game
*B-50%* set aside for *lottery*
*3* - Lower success rates to create more opportunity (Arizona's Elk hunts are a good example)
-early/Late season short range weapons hunts
-move the rifle out of the rut for Elk and don't allow it for deer
-Create traditional hunts (Recurve, longbow, and old school muzzloader hunts)

As Leupold said (And lonetree) we can't keep improving the pump without improving the well. These ideas focus on the pump, which we have more control over.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

What does a point cap do? It'll just eventually over load the top end. Idaho focuses on creating opportunity hunts not trophy units like Utah. By limiting opportunities to hunt Utah this drives the price of landowner tags and auction tags. Seems the board isn't interested in tag increases even when herd can support them rather focus on antler less permits for adjustment. Currently the most tags in the best part of the season are hunted with weapons providing the highest success rates that seems counter productive to more opportunities. If your going to harvest the best bucks with rut hunts use a primitive weapon new muzzleloader rules pushes it into a high percentage success which again limits opportunity. Mentor tags add to point creep ridiculous but yea now I have Grandma applying for my kids too.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mountain Time said:


> I have 16 elk points and would gladly GIVE UP *ALL* of my points to get out of the system we have and give my kids a chance to draw. (I have never drawn a LE elk tag)


The amusing thing about your statement is your kids get to use your 16 points to hunt with a drawn tag under the current Mentor system, while building their own points. What you are advocating actually hurts their chance to get to hunt.

-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

kids have SO MUCH hunting opportunity under Utah current system its UNREAL!

If anyones kids are not hunting every year, well, its not Utahs tag system fault...
And multiple tags at that.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> kids have SO MUCH hunting opportunity under Utah current system its UNREAL!
> 
> If anyones kids are not hunting every year, well, its not Utahs tag system fault... And multiple tags at that.


Truth. My boy turned 16 not long ago. He has killed 4 mule deer, 4 elk and 3 pronghorn so far. That's more than I did by age 30 LOL!

-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

A few thoughts,
Of all these ideas being kicked around I only see a couple possibility's over the next 5-7 yrs

1) Changing the draw order, and drawing OIAL permits before LE.
2) Putting a cap on bonus points. 

And I don't see a ' cap ' possible until 30.
In just a few weeks there will be hunters with 23 points.
Resident LE elk for example, there are 178 guys with 22, many soon to have 23 after the draw.
Getting a cap put on LE and OIAL bonus points will have to go through the RAC
and Board process, it will meet resistance. 
IMO, The soonest a cap that could be set would be at 30 points, in 2024.

I don't even see the possibility of a random draw for maybe the next 30 years
or
Radically changing hunt date structures much, to many recent DWR surveys
support the current hunt date system. No changes here for 20 years IMO.

Bottom line,
We need more wildlife, and it dosen't look like any big improvement this year.
And ,IMO, the Utah permit distribution process is one of the best,
I don't see any 'big' changes anytime soon.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Mountain Time said:


> I have 16 elk points and would gladly GIVE UP *ALL* of my points to get out of the system we have and give my kids a chance to draw. (I have never drawn a LE elk tag)
> 
> I like Idaho's lottery system. I think it's simple and it's fair and it doesn't discourage new hunters from putting in. Also I like that in the Idaho LE game you have to choose your animal, OIL or LE elk or deer etc.
> 
> ...


Idaho sucks for non residents. A 10% cap and in the same pool as the residents. Which means if there is a unit with ten tags, first non resident to draw a tag gets it and everyone else is unsuccessful regardless of drawing position. You also have to buy a $150 hunting license, which sucks when you do not draw. Hunt fees up front too. You can only put in for either OIL or LE too. It is a lottery system, but not the best lottery system.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

By making people choose le or oil is a better system to limit the applicant pool. Idaho can do this since the majority of thier hunting is based on opportunity so people not drawn can still hunt.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> kids have SO MUCH hunting opportunity under Utah current system its UNREAL!
> 
> If anyones kids are not hunting every year, well, its not Utahs tag system fault...
> And multiple tags at that.


Not to mention out of state opportunity!!! Good grief it's actually cheaper to take kids hunting out of state than trying to get them a tag here in Utah!!! Plus there are a couple surrounding states that allow youth to hunt at age 10.

I can take my 10 year old to ID and hunt bear AND elk AND deer on OTC tags for less than HALF of what I'd pay for him to hunt those three species in Utah... and he gets to start two years sooner! And the tags are OTC so no applying for several years for the bear tag!
Wyoming youth doe/fawn deer and pronghorn tags are dirt cheap, $19 each and you can apply for two... considering how difficult it is to draw antlerless deer and pronghorn in Utah, WY is a fantastic option and the antlerless pronghorn hunt is the most fun "chase" I've been a part of in a long time. And let's not forget Wyoming's discounted deer, elk, and pronghorn preference points for youth and discounted buck and bull tags when they do draw.

In the same amount of time it would take me to drive from my home to St. George (4.5ish hours)... if you go north or east you'd be surprised what's available. The amount of youth opportunity in Utah AND surrounding states in absolutely unreal.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Utahs system will change in the next 15 years. People that bought into this pyramid scheme used to believe if they waited thier turn they would draw now most can see the writing on the wall that just isn't true. As these hunters reach 18/19 points with limited choices the pressure will shift to change the system

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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Truth. My boy turned 16 not long ago. He has killed 4 mule deer, 4 elk and 3 pronghorn so far. That's more than I did by age 30 LOL!
> 
> -DallanC


Don't forget to consider the 'Dad' factor into the equation. Might not be fair, but opportunity for kids is directly related to the involvement of their dad.(or someone like a dad)

If there's anyone left out there who doesn't think there is enough opportunity for their kids, you might want to widen your view of where the problem could lie.

My two girls have killed double the amount of animals than I have in the last 6 years including some fairly decent critters. Just the way I like it.

PS......and that's without ever using the mentor program so even more opportunity could exist if I could ever draw a tag.----SS


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

By 12, my youngest boy harvested 4 turkey's,
Buck deer, Antelope , elk, and more upland game/waterfowl than I can even count!

Nothing like this even existed pre bonus/pref point days.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Idea for a _"perfect system"_...

Stop everyone from buying, accumulating or building points in any way and give *ME* full reign of the state to hunt what I want when I want.

Didn't say it was fair but it seems perfect to me.

One idea that is a little more realistic would be to require full tag fees up front with timely reimbursement for undrawn tags.

This might help reduce those that put everyone and their dog in for every hunt knowing that they can "Mentor" or turn a tag back in if someone who doesn't hunt draws.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> Idea for a _"perfect system"_....
> 
> One idea that is a little more realistic would be to require full tag fees up front with timely reimbursement for undrawn tags.
> 
> This might help reduce those that put everyone and their dog in for every hunt knowing that they can "Mentor" or turn a tag back in if someone who doesn't hunt draws.


We did this for MANY years in Utah.

Then state law changed this option. Now permit fees cant be charged upfront.

I don't see this option ever changing back either.

Next.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> Don't forget to consider the 'Dad' factor into the equation. Might not be fair, but opportunity for kids is directly related to the involvement of their dad.(or someone like a dad)
> 
> If there's anyone left out there who doesn't think there is enough opportunity for their kids, you might want to widen your view of where the problem could lie. ----SS


And that post by SS hit the nail on the head. While those very involved in hunting (ie, people posting on these forums year round) have seen an increase in opportunity for their kids, many have not. I can not believe the number of clients, friends, and even family who have teenagers only getting 2-3 general season deer tags during their time as a youth. I'm not saying it isn't fair, but people gotta see it through the lens of others.

In no way can we associate current opportunities with the "pre bonus/pref point days". Elk and turkey numbers have exploded, causing an increase in those hunts over the past 25 years. That had nothing to do with points. That was due to the species thriving with or without the help of humans.

I can't see a day when people have 46 points and are still not drawing. No idea what the final change will be, but there will be some kind of a change.

..


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Another issue on this thread,

Letting hunters combine OIAL points to us on any species,
Again REALLY bad idea!

The youngster's around here forget, or don't know,
In the beginning of the point system, all hunters were allowed to apply for everything.
Thus residents accumulated point for ALL OIAL species.

Just look at Big horn desert sheep,
currently over 50 hunters with max points, 22.
I'm sure most of these guys applied for all of the OIAL permits at the start.
Let them combine OIAL points , and many in this group would jump to 32 points!

Not to mention the group one point behind, 
We would have 100's of hunters JUMP to 29+ points over night!

To the guys wanting to combine OIAL points to use for any species, 
I suggest you add up how many points you have, and SEE were you stand with this move.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Its just a simple problem of too many hunters, not enough game.

Look, a person can sit in the draw until they have 20-30 points... or we remove points completely and under a completely random flat draw system it might take 50 to 100 years to draw a tag (or never if you are a unlucky SOB). 

Is it fair someone has 20 bison points and my boy only has 2? Sorry to say but thats just life. Should I somehow be given a chance to buy microsoft stock at 1989 prices just because my dad did? 

Life aint fair... not by a long shot. We sit and complain about 10 years or 20 years to draw a recreational hunting permit to stick antlers on a wall. Meanwhile in the Sudan 250,000 kids will be dead in the next couple weeks from starvation.

Tags are a 1st world problem. Utah has one of the more fair systems out there. I do not want to see the system tweaked as i FIRMLY believe the government will F it up if they start tweaking it. They have a proven track record of leaping before they look (opt 2 tag loophole anyone?).

The population of Utah is on pace to double by 2025! Eventually, there will be so many people, so few of resources... even deer will become OIL. It may take a couple generations, but we will get there. Hunting in and of itself will slowly disappear for anyone without access to private grounds (ie: european style hunting). 

IF people want to talk real world steps, I'd start with the smaller things. Say CWMU allocations, 1 to 10 ratio just isnt cutting it. Imagine how many more people would move through the system if it moved closer to a 50:50 ratio. Yes yes I know people always say the property owners will pull out of the CWMU program, and maybe some will... but I think tag prices are high enough there is a heck of an incentive for a Land Owner to keep with the program. It would be a simple change that would effect the point creep in the main draw by quite a bit. Its a 1 time use solution though, as it doesnt address the root problem: Too many hunters, not enough game.


-DallanC


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

One final comment.

re:


goofy elk said:


> Resident LE elk for example, there are 178 guys with 22, many soon to have 23 after the draw.


Yes, there are these guys, but I disagree that they represent a "problem". With that many points, they can choose to have almost any LE elk tag in the state, with only a very few exceptions. However, most in this pool are holding out for those exceptions, and sometimes even more notably, for the infrequent shot at "spider bull 2" within those super premium units. There simply will never be enough tags in these few units to completely move these folks through.

In many cases, guys like the ones above represent a choice and not a problem IMO.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

DallanC said:


> .
> 
> IF people want to talk real world steps, I'd start with the smaller things. Say CWMU allocations, 1 to 10 ratio just isnt cutting it. Imagine how many more people would move through the system if it moved closer to a 50:50 ratio. Yes yes I know people always say the property owners will pull out of the CWMU program, and maybe some will... but I think tag prices are high enough there is a heck of an incentive for a Land Owner to keep with the program.
> 
> -DallanC


AMEN! I laugh at how many people scorn the CWMU program, then complain about point creep. The CWMU program is the best thing going for those competing for tags in the rat race. I'm with Dallan. Most of the CWMU's that I have been around could handle a bit more pressure both public and private.

As far as owners pulling out, I doubt it. Can you imagine trying to run an operation where clients had to draw tags, then you were bound to the regular seasons? Tough way to do business. Lots of places out there making 6 figures+ selling tags while also helping out the draw pool.

I can't see any reason why the CWMU program shouldn't be appreciated and expanded to capacity. More properties involved would be nice and extremely helpful. Maybe the only fair way to provide some relief to the draws.-----SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The problem with a perfect fix is that there are no perfect fixes. 

If there was I would of drawn at least one of my OIL tags in the last 40 years that I have been putting in for them. I started when I was 16 when there was no point system, missed a few years when you had to phony up the money up front and got back into them when they changed to the system that is in effect now. 

In that time I have seen people draw a OIL tag the first time that they put in. I have seen young kids draw with 0-5 points and older hunters just drop out of the system because they are approaching the age when they just can't do a hunt like they want.

I also know of hunters that have drawn every OIL tag available in the state of Utah, they were the lucky ones. 

A few years ago I came to the conclusion that if you want to hunt a moose then to save your money and head north where the tags are over the counter. Same with mountain goats. 

Utah and the states south of the Canadian border do have a few unique animals that you will have to sit in line for. One is the bison which here in Utah is one of the very few wild roaming genetically pure herds in the US, but I am getting to the point on them that I'll head north to Montana or one of the Dakotas to hunt them. Granted it will cost a few bucks but I can plan that hunt out and go do it while I am still able to hike and walk. 

On the youth thing, the last time that I checked a couple of years ago there were over 3000 youth deer tags that went unused. Granted they were for archery hunts but do go telling me that the youth don't get to hunt in Utah. I do know that back when I was 16 and if I had to go archery hunting to get a tag then I would of gone archery hunting. Also the youth of Utah are going to be in for a huge disappointment once they are out of the youth pool and have to learn and put in with the rest of the population. They'll go from hunting a lot every year to hoping that they can draw just one tag a year. They are in for a rude awaking.


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

weaversamuel76 said:


> What does a point cap do? It'll just eventually over load the top end. Idaho focuses on creating opportunity hunts not trophy units like Utah. By limiting opportunities to hunt Utah this drives the price of landowner tags and auction tags. Seems the board isn't interested in tag increases even when herd can support them rather focus on antler less permits for adjustment. Currently the most tags in the best part of the season are hunted with weapons providing the highest success rates that seems counter productive to more opportunities. If your going to harvest the best bucks with rut hunts use a primitive weapon new muzzleloader rules pushes it into a high percentage success which again limits opportunity. Mentor tags add to point creep ridiculous but yea now I have Grandma applying for my kids too.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


My idea for capping the points is based on *my opinion* that we should move away from the point system. May not be a popular opinion but..... People have spent years accumulating points so capping the points allow them to still keep them but eventually the top end will be like a lottery. Essentially it devalues points. It would cause a conundrum for people putting in for the first time..lol...maybe it would better to just freeze points and let everyone put in for the lottery draw and points count as an extra name in the hat.

I agree with you that we should move the most effective weapons out of the rut which would lower the success rates and allow for more tags to be given. The new muzzle loaders and scope laws have turned them into one shot rifles(Yes I have one of them).


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

You could do the basically the same thing by moving the split from 50/50 to 25 % tags to max and 75% go into random draw.
I think you see a shift as the bottom rows of the pyramid fill up and the top doesn't move. The majority will tell the top point holders to pound sand

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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

DallanC said:


> The amusing thing about your statement is your kids get to use your 16 points to hunt with a drawn tag under the current Mentor system, while building their own points. What you are advocating actually hurts their chance to get to hunt.
> 
> -DallanC


That's true, ONE of my kids could hunt under the mentor program IF I draw. Time to pick a my favorite.  Maybe in the short term what I am advocating "hurts" their chance to hunt on a LE tag but in the long term it levels the playing field for ALL of them to possibly draw a tag.

Based on the responses that followed my post, it seems people thought I was advocating that we need more opportunity for kids to hunt. I wouldn't argue against it but that wasn't my point. My point wasn't about my kids being able to hunt as a kid(14-17), I was actually thinking more long term. I have a 2 year old, where will points be in 12 years when it's time for her to start applying? How about when they are 18? What about after you draw a tag? Not whining here, just brainstorming if there is a way to give people a fair shake in the future.

Truthfully, I would like to see us manage for herd health/numbers and get away from age class for elk. Buck to doe ratio is slightly better, but I still think it should be based on healthy breeding numbers, not numbers to produce trophies. For the record, I love a good trophy buck or bull but I would rather see more people have an opportunity to hunt. There will still be trophies, they will just be harder to find, which would make them even more of a trophy.


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## J_marx22 (Sep 14, 2015)

I don't have any problem with the draw system right now even though I will probably never saw a OIL tag but I wonder what would happen if we took some of the low to middle range LE units especially elk and opened them up to become open bull units or general hunts. I don't want to get ripped to shreds by people on the forum but I appreciate the fact that some other states have some decent elk units with opportunity on more than just cow/spike. When I draw my LE tag I am going to ecstatic if I take even a raghorn bull. Now a lot of you have spots that run in the family on general units or you put in incredible amounts of time to find a way to be consistent but understand that if you don't have that elk hunting in Utah is hard as hell on general units. Would it really be so bad to open up a few low end units and maybe increase the average hunters possiblility of harvesting a bull?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

So,
Here is what would change if CWMUs would move from a 1:10 ratio to 50:50 for elk.

Last years numbers,
there were 2576 LE elk permits available in the draw, of those 258 were CWMU tags.

Now the total CWMU elk permits is 961.
Change that to a 50/50 split, you would have 480 public permits.

The net change would increase the total permits available to 2,798.

Utah had 50,000 elk applicant's last year for LE elk or bought elk points.

Not much of a increase to the drawing odds.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> So,
> Here is what would change if CWMUs would move from a 1:10 ratio to 50:50 for elk.
> 
> Last years numbers,
> ...


Your numbers are correct... but I wouldnt compare the 480 number to the total applicants number (50k).

Half available tags goto people in the top tier, which using your numbers is 240. Thats 240 more hunters cleared out of the top of the pyramid yearly. That in and of itself is significant.

-DallanC


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Springville Shooter said:


> .
> 
> As far as owners pulling out, I doubt it. Can you imagine trying to run an operation where clients had to draw tags, then you were bound to the regular seasons? Tough way to do business. Lots of places out there making 6 figures+ selling tags while also helping out the draw pool.
> 
> SS


It is and can be done my evidence is unit 10 in Arizona

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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

*Your idea of the "perfect fix"*



J_marx22 said:


> I don't have any problem with the draw system right now even though I will probably never saw a OIL tag but I wonder what would happen if we took some of the low to middle range LE units especially elk and opened them up to become open bull units or general hunts. I don't want to get ripped to shreds by people on the forum but I appreciate the fact that some other states have some decent elk units with opportunity on more than just cow/spike. When I draw my LE tag I am going to ecstatic if I take even a raghorn bull. Now a lot of you have spots that run in the family on general units or you put in incredible amounts of time to find a way to be consistent but understand that if you don't have that elk hunting in Utah is hard as hell on general units. Would it really be so bad to open up a few low end units and maybe increase the average hunters possiblility of harvesting a bull?


Some units would be tougher than others. Cache North and meadowville probably ok. Paunsagunt will probably interfere with the Premium deer hunt. I think Manti, FL, and the Wasatch could be a 5 point or better.

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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Goofy - I like your recommendation on the cwmu tag split difference. Having been around three different cmwus in Nothern Utah, THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND DOES NOT REFLECT THE BELIEF OF ANY OF THE THREE NORTHEN UTAH CWMU PROPERITIES - 

Some cmwu operators would balk at this new split and if the DNR pressed them on it, they could simply withdraw their property from the program. With the availability of otc archery elk tags and otc rifle elk tags , landowners could still make a pretty penny from "trespass fees" without the aid of the DNR.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

So maybe 50/50 split is too much to ask. I get Goof's numbers but remember, the real help is the total numbers that apply for a tag. Seems to me that a good conservative average is about 20 applications per CWMU tag. So if you added 20 CWMU tags then 400 applicants would not be putting in for other tags. Right?------SS


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Springville Shooter said:


> So maybe 50/50 split is too much to ask. I get Goof's numbers but remember, the real help is the total numbers that apply for a tag. Seems to me that a good conservative average is about 20 applications per CWMU tag. So if you added 20 CWMU tags then 400 applicants would not be putting in for other tags. Right?------SS


Maybe...a big reason there is a relatively steady number of applicants for each CWMU is once people find a good one, and more so if they find a great one, they don't broadcast it. The applicant list for the CWMUs I know has been relatively constant for almost 20 years, with us going so far as to coordinate with the other "primary" families that hunt those units year after year as to who requests which dates. In a given year on some of these there might be 5 new applicants across all the tags. Maybe.

Sure, increasing the number of tags that go to the public might very well pull new applicants into trying a CWMU for the first time, but would you want to risk burning +10 points on a unit where it will be very difficult to find anyone willing to encourage you to apply to it, that isn't the operator? I think the end result would be an overall increase in draw success for those who already hunt CWMUs and a minimal effect on the other LE units.


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## DUSTY NOGGIN (Feb 27, 2017)

heres my ideas , on elk 

modify hunt dates to decrease success rates 

why does a guy with a rifle need to hear em bugle ??? move that hunt to different time.... you dont have to be a good hunter to shoot an elk with a rifle, especially when they are screaming "here i am" every 10 min - move LE elk to a time with snow on the ground late season only, take the easy out of it 

make a salt flats elk hunt available (( open quota ))
make a willard bay elk hunt with a (( open quota )):grin: 
you dont even gotta season your meat , and they wont have to pack in salt blocks!!!

as far as elk hunt schedules 

IMO no elk hunts should be on the rut , its not a hunt if you know where they are at
archery first just before rut, muzzle loader end rut , rifle after general season is over and the animal know that the shooting has started, also while there is snow on the ground so that distance that a rifle has, is utilized

give archery one week before and after general season but not during , a lot of impatient people will waste all vacation on that first week and never hear a thing creating lower success , 

IMO limited entry should be a line - wait your turn if line line gets too long dont get in - its the human population at fault and there is little that can be done 

general should be the lottery , random one name in the hat per person , that way everyone can hunt 


If you wanna hunt the LE's you gotta help , 

id actually raise my hand on , habitat, wintering or conservation labor efforts give LE points too -as long as it was well regulated -- if people had to work to keep populations normal, you'd see less applicants - the dedicated hunting program is a good idea but the working hours are a little too lenient and should have to be accounted for on the dwr approved locations budget via payments to dwr


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

First, you either kill the entire points system or you accomplish nothing. As long as there is on exception, then someone else will want one next year. Same as the tax code.

Second, you want to stop point creep, and put some change in the DWR pocket, you have to front the money for the species you put in for. The division can keep the interest it collects. And not a hold on a CC, your card will be charged full price to be refunded upon not drawing. 

Last, you old timers(I'm 42) with your "kids have...." kinda forget that when you were a kid you left your house with a shotgun all fall and hunted, without some program, starting with doves and ending with ducks. Now you built your house on that ground. Also, you forget a lot of the reason you didn't go LE hunting, is because there was no such thing, and the law made you be 16, 14 for me. You could hunt all 3 weapon seasons, statewide. We have created this carved up, "trophy centered", pieced together plan, thus the need to carve out ways to get kids involved. Like was pointed out earlier, ya, you can mentor. Which one of your kids do you like the best? IF you are sitting around bitching about kids, and ACTUALLY looking at draw odds, EVERY LE unit is nearly OIAL to a 12 year old. The OIAL, aren't even that, there would have to be a plague for a 12 year old to have a realistic chance at a sheep. I keep reading life isn't fair in regards to them, while your fighting to protect your points, the majority of which you piled up while being able to put in for ALL species. So, I agree, life isn't fair. Thats why I would love a straight up lotttery, no bonus points, 5 year waits across the board including convention tags, CWMU. Front the money for each application, DWR to keep interest accrued. Then EVERYONE is on the same footing, equal across the board.


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## muleymadness (Jan 23, 2008)

DallanC said:


> PS: Anyone can just buy a tag for any unit in the state... don't forget, rich guys can hunt every year.
> 
> So like I tell my boy, don't sweat the draw odds... keep getting those straight A's in school, get a good college degree then go get a great job making a couple hundred thousand a year... THEN you can be one of those guys who just goes and buys tags every year. Completely bypass all the suckers standing in the points line.
> 
> -DallanC


I like your thinking, I need one of those jobs!


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

Just had a thought so I'm bringing this thread back from the dead to get everyone's opinion.

Would it help any if a change were made to the waiting period system, lets use LE Elk for instance. Under the current system you draw a LE elk tag and there is a 5 year waiting period. What if the second time you drew a LE elk tag the waiting period doubled. If you were lucky enough to draw it 3 times then it would triple. 

Of course this wouldn't change the fact that there are just to many applicants, but it would add a little more fairness to the game in my opinion. A guy who has drawn the tag twice before just should not have the same chance as the guy who has never drawn it.

The elk system is so out of whack that there's probably no hope, but if you were to apply this to the 2 year waiting periods it might make a little difference.

Add it to the swan draw system and it would really change things.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Lets just say that once you draw a LE tag you are finished drawing a LE tag for that species. I know of one person that now has dawn 3 LE elk tags while another is still waiting for the same unit to draw it once. Granted one of those LE tags that the lucky person drew was a archery tag but the other two were rifle tags and he has bagged 3 elk on those 3 hunts.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Truelife said:


> Would it help any if a change were made to the waiting period system, lets use LE Elk for instance. Under the current system you draw a LE elk tag and there is a 5 year waiting period. What if the second time you drew a LE elk tag the waiting period doubled. If you were lucky enough to draw it 3 times then it would triple.
> 
> Add it to the swan draw system and it would really change things.


The problem is that people will still be applying for antelope while they're on their deer or elk waiting period, no matter how long it is. It would do little more than shift the pressure elsewhere, and make it harder on the rare few who actually choose to apply for antelope rather than elk or deer in Utah. My dad is one of those people, and I can tell you he'd rather see those hardcore elk and deer hunters out of the antelope pool and back into their preferred draw pool ASAP.

I don't know what you mean about the swan draw system, since there is no waiting period for swan. I think the swan system is as fair as can be - wait your turn, get a tag. Reliably hunt every 2-3 years. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Turn LE into OIL? I'm not a fan of that. While I understand it is becoming more and more like OIL in practice anyway, I like keeping it as it is. There is no perfect system as long as demand far exceeds supply.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

My perfect fix is to put up or shut up - wanna hunt elk, deer, antelope, etc. on a regular basis? Do the homework and apply for as many states as possible. This mentality that we need to change the system to fit our needs is getting lame - it's impossible to please everyone. There are at least eight other Western states to hunt - it just takes a little budgeting, planning, and learning. Sure the unit might not be full of 350" bulls, 180" bucks, bugling bulls for ten days straight, or love sick mule deer, but the opportunity is definitely there. I have found that people accomplish exactly what they set themselves up for - either success due to planning or failure due to lack of planning. 

Clarq just posted about his applications for Nevada and Montana - it seems that he has a plan and is working to accomplish it. The cool part about this forum is that there are others, just like Clarq, that aren't allowing one state and it's draw process to dictate how much hunting they do on any given year.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Once you get an LE tag you can't get another one for the same species for 5 years regardless of the area or method of hunting. Anyone over the age of 65 gets extra consideration for LE draws. LE draws require a minimum of 5 points.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

Clarq said:


> I don't know what you mean about the swan draw system, since there is no waiting period for swan. I think the swan system is as fair as can be - wait your turn, get a tag. Reliably hunt every 2-3 years. Nothing wrong with that.


You're right Clarq, there is no waiting period for swans. But we are starting to see guys with 3 or 4 swan points now so maybe there should be. To say it's a "wait your turn" system simply isn't true if there are guys drawing nearly every year while others wait 2, 3 or 4 years to get a tag.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> My perfect fix is to put up or shut up - wanna hunt elk, deer, antelope, etc. on a regular basis? Do the homework and apply for as many states as possible. This mentality that we need to change the system to fit our needs is getting lame - it's impossible to please everyone.
> .


Dang and I was completely convinced that by us commenting on this thread we would change the world and from now on I would draw every tag I put in for in every state..............:grin:

Just a few fellow hunters sitting around wishing they were out watching the sun rise instead of watching a computer screen.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Truelife said:


> Everybody has ideas of what would make our LE drawing system better. Here's my idea. I'd love to hear your comments for and against as well as your own remedies.


Sorry, maybe I misunderstood the first few sentences in your first post... I thought you were asking for comments and opinions, not a pat on the back for your idea.

Utah's system is pretty fair as it is, and like Vanilla pointed out, as long as demand exceeds supply - there will always be an imbalance. My fix is to apply for all the states I can, stack the odds in my favor, and not waste time thinking about things I can't control.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Truelife said:


> You're right Clarq, there is no waiting period for swans. But we are starting to see guys with 3 or 4 swan points now so maybe there should be. To say it's a "wait your turn" system simply isn't true if there are *guys drawing nearly every year while others wait 2, 3 or 4 years* to get a tag.


There are guys drawing swan tags every year?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I think it is naive to think that draw systems will stay the same forever. Sure, apply and hope. But don't bank on the same opportunity to draw will be there in 18 years. 

Look at WY, they are talking of cutting the non-resident quota for their "OIL" species to 90-10 split. That takes away 60% of the nr tags. They just changed non-resident deer-elk-lope quotas. Is Colorado going to maintain 35% of their tags to nonresidents? Doubt it. Will Utah really have people with 47 points? 

Gotta plan and just go do it now (if you can). But a guy has to understand that systems change-- no matter if we like it or not. 

..


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Packout said:


> I think it is naive to think that draw systems will stay the same forever. Sure, apply and hope. But don't bank on the same opportunity to draw will be there in 18 years.
> 
> Look at WY, they are talking of cutting the non-resident quota for their "OIL" species to 90-10 split. That takes away 60% of the nr tags. They just changed non-resident deer-elk-lope quotas. Is Colorado going to maintain 35% of their tags to nonresidents? Doubt it. Will Utah really have people with 47 points?
> 
> ...


Agreed 100%. Now as for me and my opinion (so listen up ya #@[email protected]##@@!) the best option would be a pure random draw. 1 name, 1 chance. Go ahead and make everybody have to choose 1 LE and 1 OIAL (or even only 1 between the two of them). Then ensure a 10% allocation of tags at auction, but wait until I'm rich enough to buy whatever one I want and skip ahead of the line of knuckleheads.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

To get hunters through the system you have to do one of two things if not both. You have to either increase the game population or you need to get rid of hunters looking for that game animal. That is where I think that a LE for animals such as elk should go to a OIL tag. It is my belief that will get hunters through the elk system the fastest, and it isn't like they can't go hunt elk in either a spike or a any bull area which they are doing anyway when they don't draw that LE tag. 

Also as others have said, look somewhere besides Utah. I know of a few units in Colorado that are OTC where you can shoot 350+ bulls every year.. And no I an not going to let tell anyone where these units are.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Sorry, maybe I misunderstood the first few sentences in your first post... I thought you were asking for comments and opinions, not a pat on the back for your idea.
> 
> Utah's system is pretty fair as it is, and like Vanilla pointed out, as long as demand exceeds supply - there will always be an imbalance. My fix is to apply for all the states I can, stack the odds in my favor, and not waste time thinking about things I can't control.


You're right, I did ask for, and have enjoyed everyone's comments even though I don't personally agree with all of them. I got the impression that the thread in it's entirety got under your skin. If so, no need to click on something that doesn't interest you.

If that was incorrect then my bad.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Truelife said:


> You're right Clarq, there is no waiting period for swans. But we are starting to see guys with 3 or 4 swan points now so maybe there should be. To say it's a "wait your turn" system simply isn't true _*if*_ there are guys drawing nearly every year while others wait 2, 3 or 4 years to get a tag.


Do you personally know people who didn't draw a swan tag with 2 or 3 points last year? Nobody I know has needed more than 2 points to draw.

I was under the impression that all swan tags go to those with the highest points - meaning that everybody with 3 points draws before anybody with 2 points draws. Am I wrong? The only people who should be drawing almost every year are youth. I think I drew a tag every year until I was 16.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

Clarq said:


> Do you personally know people who didn't draw a swan tag with 2 or 3 points last year? Nobody I know has needed more than 2 points to draw.


I have had a few guys tell me they had 2 and didn't draw. I suppose that has to be taken with a grain of salt though because I've had guys tell me they can't draw a general season deer tag with 4 or 5 points too. After doing a little digging I've found that in all cases they don't understand how the system works and they basically take away their own chance in one way or another.

I have 2 swan points this year so I hope you are correct.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Clarq said:


> Do you personally know people who didn't draw a swan tag with 2 or 3 points last year? Nobody I know has needed more than 2 points to draw.
> 
> I was under the impression that all swan tags go to those with the highest points - meaning that everybody with 3 points draws before anybody with 2 points draws. Am I wrong? The only people who should be drawing almost every year are youth. I think I drew a tag every year until I was 16.


I didn't draw a swan tag last year. -NR pool 2 points

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

I think we should convert the buck deer draw to one system based on bonus points. This would simplify the draw process, cost less for consumers, and would be better in the long run. 

It would require tweaking the lifetime license and dedicated hunter rules but in the long run I think it would be a win for everyone. 
I also really like the idea of changing the OIL draw to first in order.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

silentstalker said:


> I think we should convert the buck deer draw to one system based on bonus points. This would simplify the draw process, cost less for consumers, and would be better in the long run.


So are you going to force people to choose between putting in for Deer or Elk, or are you going to allow them to still apply for both? Currently you can apply for GE deer and a LE elk.

Once you move deer to the LE points pool system, what do you do with the Lifetime license hunters? Allow them to start taking Henrys, Pauns or Bookcliffs deer tags? Its all "one" system at that point right? And they are guaranteed yearly tag.

Why not just make it a "one tag" state. Force people to apply for ONE single species, Moose, Deer, Elk, Antelope, Bighorn, Bison, Mt Goat etc. Seems we are headed down that path anyway.

There are some BIG problems with doing what you suggest... big enough I think thats why it hasnt been done already.

No matter how you attack this issue, there just aren't any "simple" solutions. It is a highly complex, and emotional issue, especially among people who have invested decades into the existing system.

-DallanC


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Great points Dallan. Those are all obstacles at this point. I don't have time right now to type all of my thoughts but, I would convert all deer to one draw using bonus points. 
I would change the rule so you could apply for more than one species. We allow NR to do this and I think we should do it for residents too. 
The lifetime tag holders are guaranteed a general deer tag. Nothing more. I would set up 5-10 of the general units across the state and give them the option to get a guaranteed tag in those areas (say up to 20% per unit) or the option to opt out and apply for the rest of the more highly regarded units on a bonus point draw. You could even allow them to use their fifth choice to get their guaranteed tag. (Still thinking this through)
No doubt these are big changes and why no one has stepped to the plate yet, but the hunts/draws are ever evolving and I think combining the deer units is over due. 
Is there any support for this tweaked one way or another? I am curious.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

If you're combining deer points, don't you have to do the same with elk for general season and LE?

You think point creep is bad now, then allow residents to apply for both LE elk and LE deer.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

I don't think you would need to do anything with elk. 
As for point creep that would be a reason to limit it to one species. 
Every option has its draw backs. As has been mentioned earlier, and I agree, Utah has a great draw system. We just have more hunters than the limited entry/OIL system can support.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I think the odd numbered tag, (when there's not an even split) should go into the bonus point pool and not the random draw pool.
That would help several dozen more high point holders getting out of the system each year.


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## lucky duck (Dec 17, 2008)

I think you should be able to gather points for LE tags until you draw that species and then after your waiting period you can no longer gather points but can still put in for the random draw. This will allow those with points to remain ahead of those who have already hunted said species but still allow those who have hunted, a chance at gaining the tag again and remove much of the point creep..........


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

lucky duck said:


> I think you should be able to gather points for LE tags until you draw that species and then after your waiting period you can no longer gather points but can still put in for the random draw. This will allow those with points to remain ahead of those who have already hunted said species but still allow those who have hunted, a chance at gaining the tag again and remove much of the point creep..........


Wow, that there is a very fresh and interesting thought. I need to think through it a bit more but on the surface I like it.

*Edit this kind of a change would REALLY benefit the guy who's been putting in his wife, mother, grandmother etc to build up lots of points. Do you still allow people with 0 points to put in with someone with max points?

-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Wow, that there is a very fresh and interesting thought. I need to think through it a bit more but on the surface I like it.
> 
> *Edit this kind of a change would REALLY benefit the guy who's been putting in his wife, mother, grandmother etc to build up lots of points. Do you still allow people with 0 points to put in with someone with max points?
> 
> -DallanC


Hmm, interesting. I think the original idea would only "work" if you prevented a prior tag holder from applying in any groups in the future.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

lucky duck said:


> I think you should be able to gather points for LE tags until you draw that species and then after your waiting period you can no longer gather points but can still put in for the random draw. This will allow those with points to remain ahead of those who have already hunted said species but still allow those who have hunted, a chance at gaining the tag again and remove much of the point creep..........


Let me make sure I understand this correctly. For example, let's say Dad puts his 12 year-old son in for a Cache, Meadowville elk tag, and he draws. After that, the kid has to wait 5 years to apply for elk, but can never again accumulate bonus points? Is that right?

If that's what you mean, I would probably suggest adding a caveat that the lucky ones who draw before age 18 get another chance (because it was probably mom/dad's decision more than their own in a lot of cases).

I think the idea has potential, but it would really change things. The added pressure of knowing you get ONE and only ONE chance with bonus points would drastically affect how people apply. For example, last year I applied for a Book Cliffs elk tag despite the fact that I was in school, and might not be able to give it 100% effort. I figured if I got lucky enough to draw with practically no points, I'd just do my best to make it work.

However, if drawing that tag would forever hinder me from using bonus points to my advantage, there's no way I would have applied for it. I'd want to make sure I saved them for a year where I could give my hunt a full effort. I think if you put that kind of pressure on applicants to use their points wisely, you would see a lot more guys:

1. Buying bonus points
2. Swinging for the fences (e.g. trying for the best unit in the state every year until they have enough points to draw their preferred choice). If you can only use your points once, why not go for the best?

More people doing either 1 or 2 above would probably make it easier to draw a lot of the tags in any given year (except the high-demand ones).

I could probably get on board with that idea...


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

What is the reason to let people average points?
Besides trying to get an advantage over someone who doesn't or can't.
I really think trying to fill 2 or more tags on a LE hunt is way harder than enjoying each hunt individually.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

middlefork said:


> What is the reason to let people average points?
> Besides trying to get an advantage over someone who doesn't or can't.
> I really think trying to fill 2 or more tags on a LE hunt is way harder than enjoying each hunt individually.


Some people agree with you on the enjoyment, others prefer to only go out and join in on the hunt if they too can have a tag. Just different strokes, and averaging out the points helps it stay "fair" I guess?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

For as much as a LE tag cost even for a resident I highly doubt that they would go out just for the enjoyment of the hunt with friends or relatives. 

But with grandma who is now 70 years old having 20 points and Jr having 10 equals out to 15 pts and grandma can have Jr II hunt with her on the mentor program.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

middlefork said:


> What is the reason to let people average points?
> Besides trying to get an advantage over someone who doesn't or can't.
> I really think trying to fill 2 or more tags on a LE hunt is way harder than enjoying each hunt individually.


In the Book's this year, there was a group of 4 hunters with 4 tags all having a heck of a fun time. It was 3 generations of family all having one last big fun hunt with Grandpa. I was kindof jealous to be honest, I doubt my dad will ever hunt again.

On our way out of the books we stopped them and I showed them on a map where we'd been seeing couple of medium sized 4x4's. I wish I had gotten their names to later ask them out the hunt turned out.

-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> For as much as a LE tag cost even for a resident I highly doubt that they would go out just for the enjoyment of the hunt with friends or relatives.
> 
> But with grandma who is now 70 years old having 20 points and Jr having 10 equals out to 15 pts and grandma can have Jr II hunt with her on the mentor program.


I guess I wasn't very clear. I know many people that will only go out to join on the hunting trip if they too have a tag--even if that tag is $$$. Lots of people when you ask if they want to come on your OIAL or LE hunt (in my experience) first ask where they can get their tag, and then on hearing they wouldn't get to pull the trigger are no longer interested.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I've been lucky to be involved in nine LE elk hunts and two involved 2 hunters with tags.
To my knowledge every hunter had a great time on their hunts. It just creates a different set of problems. 
But I don't see why you should make it easier for people to hunt together by point averaging. 
And Johnnycake it's people who want to pull the trigger that create the problem in the first place.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> Lots of people when you ask if they want to come on your OIAL or LE hunt (in my experience) first ask where they can get their tag, and then on hearing they wouldn't get to pull the trigger are no longer interested.


You need to go down on a bison hunt in the Henry Mountains.

The opening weekend I would be willing to bet that there are 20 non hunters to every hunter. It is a zoo.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The three LE elk hunts I've helped with that I did not have the tag were three of the most fun hunting experiences I've ever had. 

But it was pretty fun to hold a tag for a premium LE deer unit too.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> You need to go down on a bison hunt in the Henry Mountains.
> 
> The opening weekend I would be willing to bet that there are 20 non hunters to every hunter. It is a zoo.


I had a blast on my 2012 cow hunt down there, but had to hire a guide in large part because I couldn't get anybody to go down with me!

I know not everybody here has trouble with getting their friends and family to tag along on a hunt, but I sure seem to have that issue. I had my dad join for the first two days of my elk hunt last fall, a buddy show up for a day in the middle, and my brother for the final two days. At one point I "had" 8 guys "for sure" coming for the opening weekend through mid week but that all crumbled literally while I was on the plane flying down. Yet another reason I've been glad and happy with my decisions to go guided on these tags.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> > You need to go down on a bison hunt in the Henry Mountains.
> ...


I hear ya. My brother and I both drew out for LE elk in 2013. After we drew, I thought my dad, little bro, uncles, and bffs' s would be there for sure to help and share in this rare and fortunate opportunity....

Nope! Just me and my fellow tag holding twin bro. Haha. I should have hired a guide - I probably would have tagged a bull..

Oh well, it was a great time none the less.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That's actually what happened to me also on my LE elk hunt in the Book Cliffs. We had a lot of people with us while we were scouting but when it came time to come out for the hunt there was only two of us.


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## lucky duck (Dec 17, 2008)

Clarq said:


> Let me make sure I understand this correctly. For example, let's say Dad puts his 12 year-old son in for a Cache, Meadowville elk tag, and he draws. After that, the kid has to wait 5 years to apply for elk, but can never again accumulate bonus points? Is that right?
> 
> If that's what you mean, I would probably suggest adding a caveat that the lucky ones who draw before age 18 get another chance (because it was probably mom/dad's decision more than their own in a lot of cases).
> 
> ...


I think you would have to eliminate the party applications in order for this to work, but it would certainly help to slow point creep and not take away from those who have a lifetime of points.

I think the mentor program could still be in place, and not count against the kids as their chance to use their points.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that the mentor program is fine but should be tweaked a little. 

Change it to where the actual tag holder needs to be physically with the shooter and not within shouting distance.


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## lucky duck (Dec 17, 2008)

Critter said:


> I think that the mentor program is fine but should be tweaked a little.
> 
> Change it to where the actual tag holder needs to be physically with the shooter and not within shouting distance.


Agreed 100%


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