# No dog, ducks or phez??



## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

So for the opener of Pheasant I'd really like to go out and see if I can get my first rooster!! Problem is my dogs aren't ready to hunt them! I went out with them last weekend and they just ran about 100 yards ahead, dove in the phrag and were jumping birds out of it 100 yards ahead of me!!
So trying to hunt with them is not an option, next year I'll have them ready!!

so is it a waste of time trying to hunt them on the opener with no dog and just by myself? I know an area in howard slough that has some birds but I'm thinking it is going to be packed with guys with dogs and I won't really have a chance. Should I just make a duck hunt?
Thanks!!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Hunt yer danm dog!

How in the hell do you expect your dog to get good at hunting if you don't HUNT the dog! Ya, he'll mess up, but soon he's going to start to get it. Load your gun, unsnap your dog, shut your mouth, and go hunting. Just be sure you hunt alone so you don't mess up someone else's hunt who actually might have a trained dog. (might be hard to do in this state)

A dog will learn nothing sitting in it's kennel.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Hunt yer danm dog!
> 
> How in the hell do you expect your dog to get good at hunting if you don't HUNT the dog! Ya, he'll mess up, but soon he's going to start to get it. Load your gun, unsnap your dog, shut your mouth, and go hunting. Just be sure you hunt alone so you don't mess up someone else's hunt who actually might have a trained dog. (might be hard to do in this state)
> 
> A dog will learn nothing sitting in it's kennel.


I totally agree with you and from my other posts it might seem that I am just waiting for the dog to get it while he sits in my backyard. Truth is I'm just to busy to work with the dog right now, I'm in the middle of starting 4 business and trying to shoot some ducks!!
If it were a matter of just taking him out and working with him while I hunt I'd do it. Here is what is more than likely going to happen. It is on public land so for the opener I know there are going to be lots of guys out there with like you said trained dogs that know what they are doing.
So here I come into a field with no hunters in it and unsnap the dog. Ok, its all good if he blazes the field and jumps all the birds out of it, I don't really care. Now the dog is out of site in the phrag and headed for the next field with other hunters in it and he goes and jumps all those birds and ruins those guys hunt!! 
I don't think it is a sportsmanly thing to do to bring dogs out and train them on opening day. I will bring them during the week when I can get out there without bothering other hunts.
Just wanting to know if it is nearly impossible to jump pheasant out of the phrag without a drive of guys or no dog?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

hoghunter011583 said:


> Just wanting to know if it is nearly impossible to jump pheasant out of the phrag without a drive of guys or no dog?


I used to hunt CRP fields in Nebraska all the time with no dog. It clearly was harder to do - but I'd usually kick up a bird or two. One thing I did when I got to where I KNEW there were birds hunkered down - I'd start talking to myself. It'd make the birds nervous enough to take off without having the dog flush them. But I'd wait until I knew I was on top of them before I'd do that. Otherwise, you can walk within 5 feet of them and they won't flush unless forced. And then they'll fly up your pant leg, scaring the bejeebers out of you and you won't get a shot off anyway.

But yes. It can be done.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Get an electronic collar for your dog. You're going to need it from the sound of things. You can limit their range, which is what I do. I have noticed that when she gets birdy, she's less sensitive to my input.


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

I took my dog hunting all last year and he would run so far ahead all the time, but I still take him with anyways. He is learning to stay a little closer each time as I work with him. Definately better to take them with than to go by yourself I would say.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

It's all about the dogs... Y would you want to hunt without a dog? Much cheaper to eat KFC than hunt down a phz... IT is about the dog!


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I have NEVER had the pleasure of hunting over good dogs. Sure, there have been a few times I have hunted with people who had "bird" dogs, that weren't worth a darn, but it never amounted to anything. 

Over the years, we have gotten pretty good at kicking up birds by ourselves, but I still can't help but wonder how many more we have walked right over the top of having no idea that they were there. 

Like was mentioned, make sure you walk slowly, and keep quiet, especially as you start a push. The element of surprise will be your best friend. Park at one end of a field or fencerow, and sneak around to the other end, then push towards your vehicle. This tends to keep the birds in one spot, rather than just pushing them out the back side of the cover you are working. There are enough tactics, we could write a book worth here. 

For your situation, I would try to work with your dog in the next few days and see if you can't get it to stay a bit closer. If you can keep it within 35 to 40 yards, I'd say you have a good chance at a bird or two. That phrag will tire you out quickly, but it will force you to move more slowly.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm with TAK. I came out of the womb following a dog. I quit hunting birds altogether for the first two years of my marriage because we lived in an apartment and I couldn't have a dog. Why hunt without one? :?


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## Bustin Bucks (May 27, 2008)

Shock Collars or as I like to call them Hearing Aids! Wont take long at all!


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

TAK said:


> It's all about the dogs... Y would you want to hunt without a dog? Much cheaper to eat KFC than hunt down a phz... IT is about the dog!


I don't hunt for food, you can't shoot any animals and have it make finacial cents!! For me it is not all about my dog, it is about being a respectful hunter and not blow other guys hunts! The question is not should I take my untrainned dog! I'm not taking a dog that runs 300 yards away till I have no clue where he is and I can't call back, not about messing my hunt up it is more about losing my dog and messing eveyone elses hunt up on the opener!! Your telling me I should take a dog that is going to run 300 yards back in the phrag while I sit and just hope he comes back? Don't think so!!


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

BirdDogger said:


> I'm with TAK. I came out of the womb following a dog. I quit hunting birds altogether for the first two years of my marriage because we lived in an apartment and I couldn't have a dog. Why hunt without one? :?


Lets see, the meat, the thrill, the outdoors, the break from work, the peace and quit, do we need to keep going with this?

Ok I'm not trying to be a smart-a but really, you would not mind if someone brought an untrainned dog out and it screwed your hunt? How many of you would mind me hunting the fields near you and when you fuss about my dog I just say yeah I figured he would do that, haven't had time to work with him!!

Also how many dogs have you guys lost? I mean do pointers never get lost and there is no fear of them being turned around in 10 foot tall phrag?


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## SureShot (Oct 2, 2007)

Buy a 100 foot length of rope and let your dog drag that behind him on Saturday. It will slow him down significantly, but still allow him to hunt. Keep hold of the other end for the first 15 minutes until he figures out that he has a limit. Then just let him drag it.


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## Ryfly (Sep 13, 2007)

You might not want to take him on the opener but I think these guys are speaking in general terms. The biggest problem with hunting phez without a dog in thick cover is that if you happen to shoot one your chances of finding that bird are close to zero. That's not very sportsman like. If you can I'd try to meet up with someone with a good dog for the day. Maybe ask someone at the parking lot if they would mind another pusher?


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

hoghunter011583 said:


> BirdDogger said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with TAK. I came out of the womb following a dog. I quit hunting birds altogether for the first two years of my marriage because we lived in an apartment and I couldn't have a dog. Why hunt without one? :?
> ...


Come on out! I have no problems with a feller and a new dog. it's not about the KILL for me... Just not. I will be hunting a young dog this year also.

Do yourself a favor and go buy a 70 dollar beeper, sport dog at sportsman and set it on beep/run mode and attach a 10 ft check cord to the dog. Go hunting. The beeper is to find him if he happens to get hung up. I have never hunted without a dog! It is not about getting the birds, its about the dogs getting me the birds! Like I said, I will buy KFC before I shoot a bird that is not produced by my dog!
But do not run a check cord unless you have a way to find a dog that gets hung up.....!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

This kinda reminds me of a guy that I talked to last night. I have a dog of his that I am working for him, he is ready to be hunted. Well he invited me to South Dakota next week. He is flying in. I told him I could not afford to fly my dogs, much less myself. He said I will pay for your flight and you don't need a dog, some of the locals we pay to guide us have a bunch......

No thanks!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

hoghunter011583 said:


> BirdDogger said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with TAK. I came out of the womb following a dog. I quit hunting birds altogether for the first two years of my marriage because we lived in an apartment and I couldn't have a dog. Why hunt without one? :?
> ...


Stay home an train the dog! :arrow: :idea:


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

SureShot said:


> Buy a 100 foot length of rope and let your dog drag that behind him on Saturday. It will slow him down significantly, but still allow him to hunt. Keep hold of the other end for the first 15 minutes until he figures out that he has a limit. Then just let him drag it.


That might not be a bad idea, I go out this evening with him and a rope and see how it works!!


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

TAK said:


> hoghunter011583 said:
> 
> 
> > BirdDogger said:
> ...


I agree with you and I'm dieing to hunt with him, he is the best dog i've ever had as far as listening. I'm going to play around with different methods this evening, really want to go out saturday and decided not to if I can't get the dog with me. Finding a bird in this area would be nearly impossible!!


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> I agree with you and I'm dieing to hunt with him, he is the best dog i've ever had as far as listening. I'm going to play around with different methods this evening, really want to go out saturday and decided not to if I can't get the dog with me. Finding a bird in this area would be nearly impossible!!


I was a little worried at first but you're coming around. :wink: That's the attitude a birddogger needs! If you can make this year all about the dog and decide that the shooting of birds is secondary to training, you'll have a dog for that will make up for this year's mistakes many times over. 


> Ok I'm not trying to be a smart-a but really, you would not mind if someone brought an untrainned dog out and it screwed your hunt?


It's OK to be a smarty around here. We like a little attitude! :twisted: But, no, I would do everything in my power to keep my dog under control and I expect others to do the same. The point we're all trying to make is that you have tools available to you to control the dog. It might even "ruin" your Saturday hunt, but the training will pay off for years to come.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

BirdDogger said:


> > I agree with you and I'm dieing to hunt with him, he is the best dog i've ever had as far as listening. I'm going to play around with different methods this evening, really want to go out saturday and decided not to if I can't get the dog with me. Finding a bird in this area would be nearly impossible!!
> 
> 
> I was a little worried at first but you're coming around. :wink: That's the attitude a birddogger needs! If you can make this year all about the dog and decide that the shooting of birds is secondary to training, you'll have a dog for that will make up for this year's mistakes many times over.
> [quote:307lwxws]Ok I'm not trying to be a smart-a but really, you would not mind if someone brought an untrainned dog out and it screwed your hunt?


It's OK to be a smarty around here. We like a little attitude! :twisted: But, no, I would do everything in my power to keep my dog under control and I expect others to do the same. The point we're all trying to make is that you have tools available to you to control the dog. It might even "ruin" your Saturday hunt, but the training will pay off for years to come.[/quote:307lwxws]

Yeah I'm not worried about him screwing my hunt up. I used to hunt snipe with my dad's springer spaniel and for the first whole season she'd stay about 20 yards out front which was awesome. Soon as she jumped a snipe she'd chase it for 100 yards jumping all the birds. I could say it messed up our hunt cause you really don't even need a dog for snipe, but it sure was nice in the fallowing 8 years of hunting over her just to watch her and she found many birds that I know we would have lost. I won't be shooting any phez without him anyway so if he messes up what's the difference atleast he learned. I just want to train him the right way and I'm just getting a little time to start, don't want to start doing it wrong just cause I want to hunt.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

I have a lab that WON'T hunt, he retrieves great but has to be convinced that there is something out there to be retrieved before he goes far enough away from me to be worth anything. He has usually spent all his time pretending to be at heel, the whole time we hunt pheasants. :roll: I say pretending because "heel" is not one of the things I made sure he knew. My training primarily consisted of: SIT, BACK, KENNEL, FETCH IT UP, and _*COME HERE YOU #$%& @#$% %$#@ @%$ DOG!!!!!!!!!*_
So I bought a Trained GSP that generally refused to get further than 50 yards away from the trainer. 
I found this tendency to be perfect for my needs. I want a dog that WILL hunt but is not so intent on finding birds that she goes over the horizon ten seconds after I release her.
That kind of thing tends to annoy me.

I hunt the kind of terrain that you find in the marshes, so further than 50 yards away, is usually completely out of sight. That and the grouse woods, where visibility is usually even worse. So I understand you not wanting to take your dog out, only to have him bust every bird in the county.

A lot of trainers recommend that you take a dog like that out hunting, but DO NOT TAKE A GUN YOURSELF, take a buddy with a gun, and let him harvest the birds, while YOU work with your dog.

Sportsmans sells their Sport Dog SD-400 (400 yard range) model e-collar for around $160, that is what I use and it has plenty of power to get the attention of a knucklehead. If your dog is exceptionally stubborn, get the SD-400S, it has a bigger capacitor or something and is intended to get the attention of ANY dog that walks, runs, or otherwise.
If your budget is not so limited, they sell models with up to 1200 yards of range, and some kits come with the beeper mentioned earlier. I have both a collar and a beeper, though the beeper is new and I have not put it on the dog yet. Not sure how she is going to feel about it, but my hopes are high. _(O)_ 
Even at 50 yards and less, it is easy to lose a pointing dog in some of the areas I hunt.

If I had an untrained/undisciplined dog that I was afraid would cause more problems on the opener than it might solve, I would probably go duck hunting opening weekend, and take the dog pheasant hunting during the week, like you said.

Good luck with it either way, enjoy having the dog and take whatever happens as a learning experience.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

Thanks,
yeah so I took him out today for a while and I just think I'll be wasting time trying to hunt him Saturday. I decided instead to not hunt pheasant once this year and instead I'm going to just work the dog. 
Like Artox said I'm leaving the gun home when I bring him out and I'll have a different attitude. I really want to turn this guy into a champ. The dog is not hard headed at all, I mean this guy was running full speed across the field and almost broke a leg to turn when he caught wind of a bird. He ran straight into the phrag and up jumped 2 phez.
That's it for now with the field trials! I know he'll point and I know he has the drive and the nose. Now I just have to take the time every evening and teach him some commands and then I can have control of him.
He learns super fast so I think next year he'll be great!!
I got a book call how to speed train you own bird dog and I'm going to stick with the plan it outlines.
I don't want to have him keep jumping those birds and not pointing, bad habits are hard to break!!


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

And when you don't take your shotgun with, you will flush up a lot of phez and kick yourself in the arse for not bringing it. :mrgreen:


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## drakebob01 (Jun 25, 2008)

So let me get this straight? You have a dog and you are going out in the field during pheasant hunting season and you are not bringing a gun?


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

drakebob01 said:


> So let me get this straight? You have a dog and you are going out in the field during pheasant hunting season and you are not bringing a gun?


Yep, so now tell me how stupid I am for that.

The deal is I want to train my dog for next year and if I have a gun I'll be in hunter mindset and not trainer mindset. That is just how I am.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

hoghunter011583 said:


> BirdDogger said:
> 
> 
> > > I agree with you and I'm dieing to hunt with him, he is the best dog i've ever had as far as listening. I'm going to play around with different methods this evening, really want to go out saturday and decided not to if I can't get the dog with me. Finding a bird in this area would be nearly impossible!!
> ...


Yeah I'm not worried about him screwing my hunt up. I used to hunt snipe with my dad's springer spaniel and for the first whole season she'd stay about 20 yards out front which was awesome. Soon as she jumped a snipe she'd chase it for 100 yards jumping all the birds. I could say it messed up our hunt cause you really don't even need a dog for snipe, but it sure was nice in the fallowing 8 years of hunting over her just to watch her and she found many birds that I know we would have lost. I won't be shooting any phez without him anyway so if he messes up what's the difference atleast he learned. I just want to train him the right way and I'm just getting a little time to start, don't want to start doing it wrong just cause I want to hunt.[/quote:3r87x4j5]


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

hoghunter011583 said:


> ...................................I used to hunt snipe with my dad's springer spaniel and for the first whole season she'd stay about 20 yards out front which was awesome. Soon as she jumped a snipe she'd chase it for 100 yards jumping all the birds. I could say it messed up our hunt cause you really don't even need a dog for snipe, but it sure was nice in the fallowing 8 years of hunting over her just to watch her..................


I usually don't use dogs to hunt birds, but wish I could (have) for ptarmigan, snipe, bobwhite and doves, mostly to help find the downed birds in the weeds, rocks, or brush.

I hunted snipe in your neck of the woods, Gueydan LA, and Metairie LA, out by the airport.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

IF you talk to most reputable trainers, they will tell you that one of the BEST ways to train a dog, is by BEING a trainer, while someone else is the hunter, that removes the need to decide what you are going to be every time a bird is found.
GOOD trainers hunt their dogs a lot and won't take a gun with them for months at at time, in order to make sure that their focus in on the DOG.

That is why I suggested it earlier, and I am glad to see that the individual who is asking the question in the first place is willing to recognize the wisdom of this approach. 
Either you hunt or you train, doing both at the same time means that one or both is getting done half as well or less, than if you are concentrating on ONE thing.
A green dog needs the attention. A guy with a gun is a hunter not a trainer, at least when working with a tyro pup that doesn't know his bung hole from a rabbit hole yet.

Don't let them snow you, you are doing it right. I will take corrections from the TRAINERS on this subject, but will require an explanation so I understand it myself. :wink: 
I talk what I know, if what I know is wrong, I need proof, so I can then either speak the truth or shut the hell up. Okay, talk _LESS_. :mrgreen:


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

wyogoob said:


> hoghunter011583 said:
> 
> 
> > ...................................I used to hunt snipe with my dad's springer spaniel and for the first whole season she'd stay about 20 yards out front which was awesome. Soon as she jumped a snipe she'd chase it for 100 yards jumping all the birds. I could say it messed up our hunt cause you really don't even need a dog for snipe, but it sure was nice in the fallowing 8 years of hunting over her just to watch her..................
> ...


I lived in Metairie!! You must have done that airport hunt a while back huh?
Snipe are one hard bird to knock down and find once you do put one on the ground!


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

We shoot snipe all the time, they aren't that hard to find where we go, but we would have lost many if we didn't hunt with dogs. 
Fun little birds, and **** hard to hit, especially the way I have been shooting the past few years. :roll: 
Been tempted to take my pointer out and see if snipe can actually be pointed, it is no trick to get them to fly with a 100 pound lab running over the top of them, not to mention making enough noise galloping around to scare birds 200 yards away. :x


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

Artoxx said:


> IF you talk to most reputable trainers, they will tell you that one of the BEST ways to train a dog, is by BEING a trainer, while someone else is the hunter, that removes the need to decide what you are going to be every time a bird is found.
> GOOD trainers hunt their dogs a lot and won't take a gun with them for months at at time, in order to make sure that their focus in on the DOG.
> 
> That is why I suggested it earlier, and I am glad to see that the individual who is asking the question in the first place is willing to recognize the wisdom of this approach.
> ...


All I know is that I'm an extremist!!!!!!! If I'm going to duck hunt I'm going to duck hunt the hardest area in the marsh so I'll be alone and to make sure i get that spot that nobody is going to go to anyway, I'm going to be out there at 3 am on a monday morning!!
If I'm going to bird hunt and I need a good dog to do it then I'm going to have a good dog. That means I need to train him and I'd rather wait till I can train him right than half #$# do it and then have a half#$% dog because of my impatience!! So, this year I'm not shooting a phez even if I get the chance cause i want to shoot my first bird over old snergly and I want to really train him well. leaving the gun home and being 100% focused on trainning makes perfect since to me. Perfect since in getting the dog trained not in shooting a bird, if I just want to shoot birds I'll just go buy some trainning birds for 10 bucks and shoot them on the way home. I want a really hunt!!
Thanks for all the advice artox!!
starting the trainning today!


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

Artoxx said:


> We shoot snipe all the time, they aren't that hard to find where we go, but we would have lost many if we didn't hunt with dogs.
> Fun little birds, and **** hard to hit, especially the way I have been shooting the past few years. :roll:
> Been tempted to take my pointer out and see if snipe can actually be pointed, it is no trick to get them to fly with a 100 pound lab running over the top of them, not to mention making enough noise galloping around to scare birds 200 yards away. :x


Yeah they fly pretty easy, if it is windy they fly to soon!
I haven't hunted them up here yet but I used to shooting them all the time in La. They are hard to hit!! I think that is where a good shot is called a sniper!!


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