# Muzzleloader Reports



## Ray

With the opener just a couple days out, I thought it would be a good idea to have a thread dedicated to what people are seeing, just remember to not spotlight locations!

took the muzzleloader out to make some final adjustments on Sunday and to make sure the load I worked up is still performing, got her dialed in and shooting great.


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## Fowlmouth

I’m ready!


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## taxidermist

So I pulled a rookie move this morning. 

I called a friend that has built a range on some property he owns that we can shoot out to 1200 yards. I said I needed to shoot my .54 sidelock to see where its at with some new bullets I cast for it. He said come on down. 

I grabbed the "stuff" and the rifle, drove the 45 miles one way to get it done. We drove out to the range house and I don't see my box for the .54 with the powder and bullets. WHAT THE HE!! ??

I drive back home and sure enough, right there on the reloading bench is the box with all the .54 stuff. This isn't a good way to start off the ML season! I guess I'll be using the .45 Wednesday morning that I have shot and its solid. Maybe I can piss someone off shooting the .54 in the afternoon. I love that rifle and really wanted to use it this year. It's just to easy to dip a dear over with the .45.


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## Fowlmouth

Dang! taxidermist that's a rough day. Out duck hunting, I have watched goosefreak head back to the boat a few times because he forgot his shotgun shells. It's a mile or better each way. The other day I was shooting my muzzleloader and I took the breech plug out to see how dirty it was getting. I loaded up the barrel with 100 grain of loose powder, rammed a projectile down, and the ramrod kept on a going. I forgot to put the breech plug in. Duh! I think I get in a hurry with muzzleloaders more than I do any other weapon. Muzzleloaders are temperamental bastards anyway!


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## justismi28

This is the first year in nearly a decade I won't be out on the opener of the ML hunt and I'm having a hard time with it. The ML hunt is my favorite hunt by far, and its harder than I thought it would be knowing I have work on Wednesday instead of taking my normal two weeks of PTO during this hunt. 

I'm looking forward to following along on some of your adventures and wish everyone Good Luck! I'll be out on the weekend looking for elk for the spike hunt and deer. If I see anything running around I'll post in this thread. So far this year I've seen good deer numbers where I hunt. Hopefully that translates into a fun general season hunt in late October for me.


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## MooseMeat

No deer tag this year, 3rd year dedicated with 2 kills, so I’m out this year. Drew a muzzy pronghorn tag. Still shooting the same load I used on elk last year, might be a little much for a goat, but haven’t had the time to switch back to the deer loads. Hitting softball sized rocks out to 525 off a bench. Should be good to go. Not hearing of much that is big in the unit I drew, if it’s got hooks and cutters, I’ll shoot it. Should be a fun day.

wish I was going deer hunting instead though… 😔 next year!


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## 3arabians

I’m ready to go! I’m excited about the weather coming in just in time for the opener! 


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## Isuckathunting

I'm excited. Getting ready and I'll head in tomorrow night. I'm actually a little bummed the weather is dropping in temp as much as it is. It was supposed to be like 55-60 during the day and 30-40 at night. Now all of a sudden last report I saw had 16 at night for the area on the mountain I'll be. 
I am however extremely excited to give my Luxe octopeak and stove a break in. Curios to see how much of a game changer having that is.


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## DallanC

Isuckathunting said:


> I'm actually a little bummed the weather is dropping in temp as much as it is. It was supposed to be like 55-60 during the day and 30-40 at night. Now all of a sudden last report I saw had 16 at night for the area on the mountain I'll be.


You cannot ask for better ML opener weather. Every 5-6 years we get a snowy opener, and its a blast. The colder the better. Give me a opener with blizzard conditions every time! Keep those fair weather guys home. 

-DallanC


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## ridgetop

DallanC said:


> You cannot ask for better ML opener weather. Every 5-6 years we get a snowy opener, and its a blast. The colder the better. Give me a opener with blizzard conditions every time! Keep those fair weather guys home.
> 
> -DallanC


hey, I'm one of those fair weather guys. How rude!
Actually, I am looking forward to the colder weather. I hate hunting in the 70-80 degree range.


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## ridgetop

I'll be missing opening day. I thought it would be fair chase to give that 40"er a running start before I take chase on Thursday.


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## Ray

Unfortunately, I won’t be able to head out until Thursday night but will be out for 5 days!

Temps for me will range from 30-60, nothing crazy


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## DreadedBowHunter

A buddy at work has a ML tag and wants me to hangout with him for two weeks. I might give him some support but I think I’m gonna get some Turkey Time first before being a giddy caller. I’d like to see the goings for ML Season if it’s going good I’ll get out to Payson Canyon and run up and down the hills... 🤔


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## flyfisher20

I won't be heading out until Thursday afternoon. Best of luck to all getting out this week.


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## taxidermist

I'll be going out for a "look see" tomorrow. My Son only has half the day off, my Son-in-Law is in a walking boot/cast thingy and I sure the he!! aint gonna pack a deer out of the woods by myself. Not that I cant do it....just don't want to do it.


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## ridgetop

I'm excited to get out diring the muzzleloader season again this year after not going last year because of having only an any weapon tag. It's definitely my favorite gun hunt to be on.


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## Stinky Boots

Well good luck to you all, hope you have a memorable season !


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## NHS

I am so sad. This week is my all-time favorite week of the year. However, this year, it sucks. Instead of heading out tonight for the ML hunt, I am headed into surgery this afternoon to repair a ruptured achilles. My fall hunts are entirely shot. Good luck to all of you. I'll be healed up for next year.


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## DallanC

NHS said:


> I am so sad. This week is my all-time favorite week of the year. However, this year, it sucks. Instead of heading out tonight for the ML hunt, I am headed into surgery this afternoon to repair a ruptured achilles. My fall hunts are entirely shot. Good luck to all of you. I'll be healed up for next year.


WHERE'S THE DISLIKE BUTTON!!!

Seriously, that sucks. Take care of it, get better soon.

-DallanC


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## 2full

NHS said:


> I am so sad. This week is my all-time favorite week of the year. However, this year, it sucks. Instead of heading out tonight for the ML hunt, I am headed into surgery this afternoon to repair a ruptured achilles. My fall hunts are entirely shot. Good luck to all of you. I'll be healed up for next year.


That really sucks, sorry to hear that. 

My surgery was scheduled for first week of October. I have 3 tags.........
It wasn't an emergency deal so I moved it to November 10th. The urologist was okay with it so I'm good to go. 
I hope it goes well and you have a speedy recovery.


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## SaltyWalty

Hunting the wasatch west muzzy, didn't see much where i wanted to go, then things happened and im going with some friends to a place that seems to be way to dry to hold deer now, but my friends have pulled big deer out of there before. Good luck to everybody!😜


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## DallanC

The area between cascade springs and deer creek would be good. Lots of water there.

-DallanC


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## taxidermist

DallanC said:


> The area between cascade springs and deer creek would be good. Lots of water there.
> 
> -DallanC


Lots of road hunters as well. If its raining, I'm sure they will be out in droves "hunting".


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## DIRTYS6X6

NHS said:


> I am so sad. This week is my all-time favorite week of the year. However, this year, it sucks. Instead of heading out tonight for the ML hunt, I am headed into surgery this afternoon to repair a ruptured achilles. My fall hunts are entirely shot. Good luck to all of you. I'll be healed up for next year.


Sucks bad.
I feel your pain. 2018 was my bad year. Foot done on Aug 13th. 6" plate and 6 screws. Then again Dec 24 remove plate and screws add 16mm bone graft and 5 screws.


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## colorcountrygunner

2full said:


> My surgery was scheduled for first week of October. I have 3 tags.........
> It wasn't an emergency deal so I moved it to November 10th. The urologist was okay with it so I'm good to go.


Look, everyone, 2 full has ED!


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## colorcountrygunner

Good luck to everyone headed out! I would be excited for these cool temperatures myself. Oh, and just kidding about the ED joke 2 full😅


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## DallanC

You didn't miss much this am. Beautiful with the new snow, not overly cold... but that relentless crazy wind yesterday, drove everything deep below the treeline. I found a dozen or so does in the aspen, elk were everywhere though... I could have shot 5 different solo bulls under 100 yards that couldn't care less about me being there. Finally found the elk herd, couple dozen cows and a very nice 6pt managing them, the herd was at a much lower elevation than the solo bulls.

More hunters than I've seen in years, lots were hunting cow elk, but they didnt seem to know what they were doing frankly. Came home for a hot shower, relax and head back up later. Clouds were socked in off and on... hoping more of that clears out this evening.

-DallanC


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## Ray

DallanC said:


> You didn't miss much this am. Beautiful with the new snow, not overly cold... but that relentless crazy wind yesterday, drove everything deep below the treeline. I found a dozen or so does in the aspen, elk were everywhere though... I could have shot 5 different solo bulls under 100 yards that couldn't care less about me being there. Finally found the elk herd, couple dozen cows and a very nice 6pt managing them, the herd was at a much lower elevation than the solo bulls.
> 
> More hunters than I've seen in years, lots were hunting cow elk, but they didnt seem to know what they were doing frankly. Came home for a hot shower, relax and head back up later. Clouds were socked in off and on... hoping more of that clears out this evening.
> 
> -DallanC



what elevation were you getting into snow?


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## DallanC

+10k 

It wasnt alot... just an inch or so coating everything.

-DallanC


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## callofthewild2

2full said:


> That really sucks, sorry to hear that.
> 
> My surgery was scheduled for first week of October. I have 3 tags.........
> It wasn't an emergency deal so I moved it to November 10th. The urologist was okay with it so I'm good to go.
> I hope it goes well and you have a speedy recovery.



So glad I am not the only one who does this. I have been fighting a horrible jaw infection since April. When they finally diagnosed the real issue the Dr. wanted to cut me up a week before my Bison hunt. I told him there was no way that that was going to happen. After a few minutes of arguing back and forth his assistant chimed in and told him that this hunt was a big deal. So now I get to get cut up on oct 6th. So danged excited for that.


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## Fowlmouth

I heard more shots this morning than I have ever heard on a muzzleloader hunt. I didn't see a buck this morning, but that's nothing unusual as I have always had better success in the evening.


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## Ray

Fowlmouth said:


> I heard more shots this morning than I have ever heard on a muzzleloader hunt. I didn't see a buck this morning, but that's nothing unusual as I have always had better success in the evening.


thats interesting, I wonder if it’s from more hunters or more bucks on the landscape. From what I’ve seen this year, where I archery hunt, I saw more young bucks than I’ve seen in years.


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## Critter

It was a wet miserable morning on the Manti where I was at. It rained/snowed most of the night so everything was soaked. I spent the morning in my rain gear just to stay dry. 

Deer were scattered, I saw a few smaller bucks but nothing that I wanted to pull the trigger on. I did see a number of elk. Bulls and cows along with a few spikes that made it through the spike hunt. Not too many hunters ventured out. I drove my ATV past a number of camps and it looks like they wanted to tend to the coffee pots a lot more that to get out and hunt.

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## DreadedBowHunter

Oh man weather did look bad on the forecast. When it’s rainy snowy and windy I’m usually the one guarding the coffee pot to make sure it doesn’t get stolen 😆


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## 3arabians

I gave it a go this morning. Saw around 10 deer. 2 bucks. A two point and a decent 3 point with a death wish that stood broadside at 80 yards for 10 seconds that was really close to ending my hunt in the first half hour of day 1 in my first year of dedicated. I held strong hoping that his foolish behavior doesn’t continue during the muzzy hunt so my wife or daughter can get a shot at him during rifle season. 


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## Fowlmouth

Ray said:


> thats interesting, I wonder if it’s from more hunters or more bucks on the landscape. From what I’ve seen this year, where I archery hunt, I saw more young bucks than I’ve seen in years.


I would say more bucks in the area this year, average number of hunters. I knew it was going to be a good deer hunt this year because of all the bucks I saw during the spring turkey hunt.


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## MooseMeat

I made it until noon before I couldn’t stand not burning powder. Not a giant, but the best out of the 25 we saw. Lots of dinks. Fun morning out with my dad


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## Pokesmole

Missed a good buck, and my pops missed the one with him. Didn’t see many deer, but that’s only the first morning.


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## Critter

Saw a real nice 4x4 tonight, the only problem was that he was headed out of the hills. I have no idea of what spooked him since I had been watching the area for a while before and after he came running through and didn't see any other hunters. Perhaps a cat or a bear, I did see quite a bit of bear sign tonight.

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## Ray

Good on ya moose! How many yards out was he?


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## Ray

Pokesmole said:


> Missed a good buck, and my pops missed the one with him. Didn’t see many deer, but that’s only the first morning.


how big was he?


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## SaltyWalty

someone in my group missed a small 4x4, but it was a hard shot. we only saw the small 4x4, a little wider 3x3 and a couple dorky forkys (that i would've totally shot if they wouldn't seen us first and dipped). It was pretty wet, but the clouds made it feel like first light for 4 hours. Had a great time, hopefully getting out next week too


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## Pokesmole

Ray said:


> how big was he?


They were on the move, if I had to guess 22-24 inches wide. I didn’t bother studying him too much I knew it was going to be a quick shot opportunity


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## DallanC

Man, the cold got to me today. I'm usually indifferent to the weather but I'm feeling it today, deep in my bones. Getting old I guess. Anywho saw this guy sneaking down through some aspen a few hundred yards away. Luckily the snow I had been cursing all day made everything nice and quiet. I was able to close within 60 yards and take a nice relaxed shot. Oddly, he bolted out of there like he was on fire at the shot, I never heard the tell-tail sound of a hit, and he never left a drop of blood. I couldnt imagine I could have missed, so I had to track him for another 60 yards through some thick stuff before I stumbled across him laying on this log. Better to be lucky than good I guess. 

Sleeping in tomorrow... ZZzzzzzz....










-DallanC


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## Ray

Nice! Way to get it done DallanC


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## taxidermist

Didn't really "hunt" the morning opener, mostly drove the SxS around to the canyons we usually see at least 1-2 decent bucks and glassed between the wind pushing the clouds in and out. Only saw a dozen does and we think one little buck. They were in the thick stuff, so it would have to had been a nicer buck to see antlers in the thick stuff. Great hunting weather though. The deer have been scarce on the unit and talking with other hunters, they didn't see much of any antlers. 

Sitting on the ridge glassing for an hour we didn't hear one shot ring out. Years past you could hear a shot about every ten minutes.


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## MooseMeat

I don’t know if it was the rain or what but I was extremely surprised to not see another hunter the entire day. I was hunting a LE tag, but the area isn’t that big. I expected to see some one. Kinda weird. I’ve also heard from some general deer hunters that they felt the same. Not near as many guys out on the opener compared to what’s normally there


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## 3arabians

DallanC said:


> Man, the cold got to me today. I'm usually indifferent to the weather but I'm feeling it today, deep in my bones. Getting old I guess. Anywho saw this guy sneaking down through some aspen a few hundred yards away. Luckily the snow I had been cursing all day made everything nice and quiet. I was able to close within 60 yards and take a nice relaxed shot. Oddly, he bolted out of there like he was on fire at the shot, I never heard the tell-tail sound of a hit, and he never left a drop of blood. I couldnt imagine I could have missed, so I had to track him for another 60 yards through some thick stuff before I stumbled across him laying on this log. Better to be lucky than good I guess.
> 
> Sleeping in tomorrow... ZZzzzzzz....
> 
> View attachment 149517
> 
> 
> -DallanC


Congrats on a nice one! I’m pleasantly surprised that you posted the kill pic. 


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## Ray

I’m supposed to head out tonight after work but I messed up a bit, Tuesday was leg day at the gym, I told myself I’d go light and do fewer working sets and workouts, once I started, I went full tilt, my legs are still jacked, hiking is going to be rough 😂


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## CPAjeff

Hopefully, tomorrow I'll have an antelope pic to add to this thread! I've been stuck at work the last two days, and can't wait to get after them tomorrow morning!


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## ridgetop

CPAjeff said:


> Hopefully, tomorrow I'll have an antelope pic to add to this thread! I've been stuck at work the last two days, and can't wait to get after them tomorrow morning!


Good luck. I know what you mean. It's been rough for those of us missing the first couple days of the hunt.


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## MrShane

Ray said:


> I’m supposed to head out tonight after work but I messed up a bit, Tuesday was leg day at the gym, I told myself I’d go light and do fewer working sets and workouts, once I started, I went full tilt, my legs are still jacked, hiking is going to be rough 😂


My idea of ‘leg day at the gym’ obviously carries a whole different meaning than yours!


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## KineKilla

Heading out tomorrow after some morning errands. Saw some great bucks during the archery hunts and hope they are still around.

I'm hunting the north end of the Manti. Anyone have road and weather reports that are recent?

Good luck out there!

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## MooseMeat

KineKilla said:


> Heading out tomorrow after some morning errands. Saw some great bucms during the archery hunts and hope they are still around.
> 
> I'm hunting the north end of the Manti. Anyone have road and weather reports that are recent?
> 
> Good luck out there!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk


Muddy and wet yesterday


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## KineKilla

Well, there's a chance they'll dry a bit by tomorrow then. If nothing else it will keep the dust down.

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## Raptorman

Nice work, Dallan! No tag this year, but I am really wishing I was out there. Good luck to the rest of you!


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## colorcountrygunner

Moose, what unit did you hunt and how many points did it take? I'm putting in for pronghorn while I'm in LE elk timeout. I want to draw pronghorn quick and get right back to getting elk points once my 5 years is up. I have been planning on just doing archery, but muzzleloader sounds fun too.


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## ridgetop

colorcountrygunner said:


> Moose, what unit did you hunt and how many points did it take? I'm putting in for pronghorn while I'm in LE elk timeout. I want to draw pronghorn quick and get right back to getting elk points once my 5 years is up. I have been planning on just doing archery, but muzzleloader sounds fun too.


That's a question more suited through a PM.


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## colorcountrygunner

ridgetop said:


> That's a question more suited through a PM.


I thought the same thing after I posted it. Sometimes I forget my forum etiquette. I got a PM with good info from CPA. If Moose wants to PM me he can.


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## CPAjeff




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## colorcountrygunner

Congrats, Jeff!


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## taxidermist

CPAjeff said:


> View attachment 149558


That's a good one! Congrats.


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## Ray

The portion of the Manti I hunted today was super dry, got some rain around 5. Saw 20+ deer, only one buck and he was a little forky, had him at 60 yards.

saw about 20 elk as well, the bulls were screaming tonight


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## Fowlmouth

Thursday evening I started down a trail I frequent often and I noticed a lot of magpies shortly into the hike. I figured they were on a gut pile so I kept walking toward them and saw a black figure laying on the ground. I walked toward it thinking that was what the magpies were on, then I saw it move and stand up. Holy $hit! A large dog staring me down with guts hanging out of his mouth. My .380 came out of my pocket in a hurry. I cut trail and walked way around him and that was that. It was just weird seeing a large dog in this area in the middle of nowhere. He was black, head looked like a wolf and his tail had a slight curl mid center. Wild dog, someone's pet or whatever it was, I was ready to shoot it. The funny thing is I never CC carry when I hunt this area, and for some reason I slipped the .380 in my pocket this time. I'm happy I didn't need to use it, but was glad I had it. I suppose I could have used the muzzleloader if it would have came to that, but it's only 1 shot.


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## Ray

That’s insane fowlmouth, No one would have blamed for shooting the thing either! That’s the type of story that belongs in a horror movie.


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## Ray

I took my son out this morning, which was awesome because he never gets to go, due to school and sports, plus my wife gets nervous having him out, so it was a real treat having him.

I found a super active feed area last night, deer were everywhere and elk! I took him into it at first light, sat 20 min and shot a doinker at 120 yards, he went about 15 yards and tipped over.
Eating heart tacos tonight!


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## taxidermist

Another Utah deer hunt in the books for me. Two years in a row hunting the same unit and didn't get to bust a primer. Saw ONE buck in four days and a total 50 deer in that time. I'm so discussed with the way the unit has declined over the years, that I just want to scream. Now I see why my Dad gave up hunting for deer. I'll apply for a different unit next year (if I apply at all) and see what happens. 

The he!! with it!!! I'm going fishing.


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## Ray

Which unit did you hunt?


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## Critter

I'm still seeing the small bucks that have a death wish hanging around with the does but the bigger ones are still eluding me. I have seen a couple of real nice ones but they have either been traveling very fast or way too far away for this old man to go after them. 

I'm going to hunt to the end with the hopes that one of the bigger ones will show himself within range.


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## taxidermist

Ray said:


> Which unit did you hunt?


Drew the SECOND CHOICE we applied for which was Wasatch West.

To many roads accessible to ATV's, UTV's, and now...cars and trucks. Didn't matter where you were at, it sounded like a bee's nest with the hum of engines up and down the trails and roads. Inconsiderate "Rectal Holes" racing up to us if we were glassing an area from the dirt road. Guess they wanted to have a chance to fire one off at a buck if we were watching one.

I'm over this idea that hunters feel "entitled" to a tag anymore. Lordy, it takes three years on average to draw a GS unit that a decent number of deer and bucks are present. To many people for the resource that is declining rapidly. I just hope that there will be something that my grandkids can go after in a few years.


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## Critter

The problems that I am seeing in a lot of areas that are caused by vehicles are the folks that are just out riding their ATV's around and could care less about hunting. While I haven't seen too many sightseers where I am at on the south Manti I did see hundreds of them a couple of years ago while I was hunting down on the Monroe. During the opening of the muzzle loader in 2019 they held a rally of some sort and there were side by sides and 4 wheelers beating the roads into dust. All you heard from sunup to sundown were their engines. They would be riding in groups of 10 or more, the ones in the back had to just be following the dust clouds because there was no way that they could see the road. 


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## MooseMeat

Hunters have seasons and dates they have to abide by. Why not push for recreational riding on ATVs and the like to be limited to certain trail systems or completely illegal after September 15. If you don’t have a valid big game tag in your pocket after that date, you’ll be heavily fined and have your atv/whatever registration revoked for an entire calendar year. They have all summer to use the mtns and go ride. There comes a point when they are impacting our hunting opportunities.


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## flyfisher20

taxidermist said:


> Drew the SECOND CHOICE we applied for which was Wasatch West.
> 
> To many roads accessible to ATV's, UTV's, and now...cars and trucks. Didn't matter where you were at, it sounded like a bee's nest with the hum of engines up and down the trails and roads. Inconsiderate "Rectal Holes" racing up to us if we were glassing an area from the dirt road. Guess they wanted to have a chance to fire one off at a buck if we were watching one.
> 
> I'm over this idea that hunters feel "entitled" to a tag anymore. Lordy, it takes three years on average to draw a GS unit that a decent number of deer and bucks are present. To many people for the resource that is declining rapidly. I just hope that there will be something that my grandkids can go after in a few years.


I just spent a few days on the same unit. Lots of does and fawns, even more side by sides, and a couple of dinky fork forns. We actually had someone shoot over the top of us from a road at a couple of fork horns. 


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## Critter

It just reminds me of years gone by. Back in the 60's and 70's we didn't have side by sides and ATV's running all over the roads but we had jeeps and pickups. Bullets would be flying everywhere, over your head and around you. The one thing that I haven't experienced in a number of years are those folks who like to roll boulders off of ledges to spook the deer out of the brush that is below, they never did pay attention to those of us wearing orange that were down in that brush. 

But you are never going to get rid of the vehicles on the roads. They have ran them forever and will run them until everything is shut down. But have anyone actually watched the animal reactions to the vehicles? I was out in the Book Cliffs one deer hunt and actually watched some deer walking down the road. When they would hear a vehicle they would step off of the road and into the brush, then once the vehicle had gone by they would step back out onto the road. Most of the time those in the vehicles never even seen the deer. I have also seen elk do the same thing.


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## Fowlmouth

Shot a deer Saturday evening. Followed large blood trail 100 yards, then just drops with an occasional puddle another 150 yards. It sure looked like a good hit behind the right shoulder. He stood on the hill and we could see blood on the left side too. Went back up today and followed blood to the last drop on the ground. No magpies or stink anywhere. This is where he stood after I shot.


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## Buckfinder

This is the worst part of hunting… such a bummer. It happens to all of us eventually.


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## Critter

I tracked a buck down on the Southwest Desert one year for over a mile. Each time I would find pools of blood where he had rested, I couldn't believe at how much blood that deer lost and kept on going. I finally jumped him out of his bed and watched him cover another mile across some flat country and disappear over the far ridge. I just shook my head and headed back to camp.

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## KineKilla

Missed my chance at a good buck. Had him dead to rights at 135ish yds. Clean miss. Could hear him chuckling as he and his friend calmly walked away while I struggled to reload.


Oh well. Rifle season my be my time for redemption.

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## middlefork

We were seeing anywhere from 8-10 bucks a day to around 15 a couple of days. Mostly spikes and little 2 points. We had located a couple of nicer ones during the archery hunt we were looking for so passed on the little ones. Never did see the ones we were looking for so they either disappeared or got shot by someone else. Oh well just more days to hunt.

As for traffic, Moose if only you were king eh! But your restrictions would be a hard sell. Hunters are terribly outnumbered by people just taking a drive to see the colors.


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## MooseMeat

middlefork said:


> As for traffic, Moose if only you were king eh! But your restrictions would be a hard sell. Hunters are terribly outnumbered by people just taking a drive to see the colors.


Then that seems like a great reason to regulate them!

name a user group of public land that’s more restricted and managed than hunters. I can’t think of any. Everyone else has pretty much free reign and do as they please. Hell hunters can’t even legally access some areas during their hunt dates because of seasonal road closures. Asking for their to be less leisurely OHV use in the fall after a certain date doesn’t seem like too much to ask. I bet you could really make some progress on it if you got enough hunter support. Pretty much all hunters would be in favor of it I think if they knew it wouldn’t impact their ability to use their atvs during their hunts on all legal open roads.

it’s like the road maggots… uh I mean bike riders, that block roads for cars. “Share the road” only applies one way and lots of car drivers can’t stand to share the road with them. Im sure if you started a petition to give them season dates many people would sign it just out of pure anger and hatred for those entitled clowns


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## colorcountrygunner

I own a 4 wheeler and love using it for hunting and tooling around...BUT...if I could snap my fingers and make it so 4 wheelers and side by sides had never been invented I would do it in a heartbeat.


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## Ray

I’ll say this, I HATE how many atv trails cut through the wilderness, just finding a spot that doesn’t have one is a pain


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## ridgetop

Boy this sure got detailed as usual. BTW, I never saw a buck in two days hunting but I'll keep at it.


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## Ray

ridgetop said:


> Boy this sure got detailed as usual. BTW, I never saw a buck in two days hunting but I'll keep at it.


something tells me you’ll end up killing a bruiser


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## taxidermist

I believe since the inception of the "dedicated hunter" program, I see a lot more hunters afield. I guess its a good idea for those that have the time to get out and hunt the three seasons. I know a few DH guys that don't even own archery tackle, and go for the ML mostly. I guess I could be a DH in the fact that I haven't killed a deer in the last two years. 

This might ruffle a few feathers, and I'm not "trolling" but, for the DH program make a new rule that they can only kill a buck that has at least 4 points on one side?? Same deal....Only 2 deer in the 3 year program. If they are truly a "Dedicated Hunter" they wouldn't have any issues with this I'd think. If this were to be implemented, I bet you'd see the DH applicant pool cut in half.


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## blacksage

Harvested a decent 4x3 late opening day. Saw a lot of spikes and little 2 points the day prior and on opening morning. Couldn't pass this guy up.


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## blacksage

taxidermist said:


> I believe since the inception of the "dedicated hunter" program, I see a lot more hunters afield. I guess its a good idea for those that have the time to get out and hunt the three seasons. I know a few DH guys that don't even own archery tackle, and go for the ML mostly. I guess I could be a DH in the fact that I haven't killed a deer in the last two years.
> 
> This might ruffle a few feathers, and I'm not "trolling" but, for the DH program make a new rule that they can only kill a buck that has at least 4 points on one side?? Same deal....Only 2 deer in the 3 year program. If they are truly a "Dedicated Hunter" they wouldn't have any issues with this I'd think. If this were to be implemented, I bet you'd see the DH applicant pool cut in half.


Afield as in camping in the same area or in side by sides? I have done the dedicated hunter program a few times and have ran into a hunter only once in the same canyon on the ML hunt. Rifle and archery hunts are a different story. I do personally love the ML hunt the most; weather, not a lot of hunters and I love that it starts on a Wednesday.


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## taxidermist

So that's what a mule deer buck looks like  I saw a little brother and one 3x3 that was packing the mail with his tongue hanging out too. Congrats on the buck!!


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## KineKilla

taxidermist said:


> I believe since the inception of the "dedicated hunter" program, I see a lot more hunters afield. I guess its a good idea for those that have the time to get out and hunt the three seasons. I know a few DH guys that don't even own archery tackle, and go for the ML mostly. I guess I could be a DH in the fact that I haven't killed a deer in the last two years.
> 
> This might ruffle a few feathers, and I'm not "trolling" but, for the DH program make a new rule that they can only kill a buck that has at least 4 points on one side?? Same deal....Only 2 deer in the 3 year program. If they are truly a "Dedicated Hunter" they wouldn't have any issues with this I'd think. If this were to be implemented, I bet you'd see the DH applicant pool cut in half.


What would the intent of this change be? Lessen the interest in the program? Lessen the number of hunters afield? Lessen the amount of volunteer hours and projects performed to satisfy the requirements? 

I'm not seeing the benefit. 

A hunter can choose to be dedicated or not without a title or name on their permit. A hunter can also choose to hold out for a bigger or more mature buck regardless of the manner in which they got their permit.

Yes, I am in year 3 of the program and will apply again as soon as possible. I don't think the path to my happiness as a hunter involves limiting anyone else's opportunities in any way. We are limited enough by the constraints in our big game management system.

Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk


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## MrShane

Ray said:


> I’ll say this, I HATE how many atv trails cut through the wilderness, just finding a spot that doesn’t have one is a pain


If you catch someone on an atv in wilderness area be sure to document the machines plate and turn them in.
It will be dealt with and stiff penalties will be issued.


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## Critter

That is where I wished that all states would require a actual plate, at least the size of the ones required for motorcycles. Then a person might actually be able to see something to report.

As it is now a little bit of mud covers up the whole decal.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## taxidermist

KineKilla said:


> What would the intent of this change be? Lessen the interest in the program? Lessen the number of hunters afield? Lessen the amount of volunteer hours and projects performed to satisfy the requirements?
> 
> I'm not seeing the benefit.
> 
> A hunter can choose to be dedicated or not without a title or name on their permit. A hunter can also choose to hold out for a bigger or more mature buck regardless of the manner in which they got their permit.
> 
> Yes, I am in year 3 of the program and will apply again as soon as possible. I don't think the path to my happiness as a hunter involves limiting anyone else's opportunities in any way. We are limited enough by the constraints in our big game management system.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk


The DH program DOES have great points to it, suck as you have mentioned with the required hours of work to get the tag. I believe the program does put more hunters afield for all three seasons that creates, lack for a better word....crowding. 

I was thinking more on the lines of a DH taking mature animals and not the forked horns with the antler restrictions attached to the program. Just brainstorming of how to try and better the quality and population of the deer. 

I believe we are at a tipping point that could jeopardize the deer hunting if something isn't done. I've been hunting for 40+ years and I have only seen it getting worse.


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## middlefork

With just 10% of available tags issued to DH I really don't see a problem with increased hunters per weapon type.

While the group of 7 DH hunters I associate with may be an exception to the rule, they have taken only two bucks within the group in the last 6 years. They are free to decide what buck, if any they care to shoot. If they want to shoot small bucks nobody is going to question them or ridicule them. The beauty of the program is the choice to decide what bucks one chooses to hunt and spend extra time in the pursuit.

I don't agree with the premise that hunting buck deer with the restrictions already in place is the limiting factor of our deer herds.

Perhaps this discussion should be moved to its own thread.


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## Critter

While I don't totally agree with the DH program it does fit a need in getting free labor and or some money put into the DWR pocket book to do projects with. Those that I know who have been in the DH program usually only take a smaller buck in their third year of hunting with unfilled tags in the first two. They are mostly in it for the opportunity to hunt deer and are usually after a larger buck instead of that little fork horn.

I also agree that something needs to be done with the deer herds to boost them up, and it isn't all about habitat loss. All a person needs to do is to head south of the big cities and look at how the herds are doing where they have plenty of habitat for both winter and summer. 

As for this years muzzle loader, I am drinking my last pot of coffee right now before I pack it up and head home. I have seen quite a few deer and smaller bucks but only a few that I wanted to go after. But they were either too far away or heading out of the county on a dead run. But I did have opportunities to pop a cap on one either off of the side of the road or quite a ways off of it, so I consider this season a success even if I am going home with a unfilled tag. I managed to get a few grouse for the pot and they will have to do.


Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## blacksage

taxidermist said:


> The DH program DOES have great points to it, suck as you have mentioned with the required hours of work to get the tag. I believe the program does put more hunters afield for all three seasons that creates, lack for a better word....crowding.
> 
> I was thinking more on the lines of a DH taking mature animals and not the forked horns with the antler restrictions attached to the program. Just brainstorming of how to try and better the quality and population of the deer.
> 
> I believe we are at a tipping point that could jeopardize the deer hunting if something isn't done. I've been hunting for 40+ years and I have only seen it getting worse.


Why not make everyone have to abide by the "three point or bigger" type rule, or "four point" as you mention above? Why just the dedicated hunters?


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## MooseMeat

MrShane said:


> If you catch someone on an atv in wilderness area be sure to document the machines plate and turn them in.
> It will be dealt with and stiff penalties will be issued.


No it won’t, but it’s a nice fantasy anyways


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## PBH

blacksage said:


> Why not make everyone have to abide by the "three point or bigger" type rule, or "four point" as you mention above? Why just the dedicated hunters?



If you implemented any kind of "three point or bigger" or "four point" -- wouldn't that do exactly opposite of what you want it to do? If you only allow 4-point bucks to be killed, then there wouldn't be any more 4-point bucks running around. 


If you really want to change the rule for DH, you should change it to 3-points or less! Then all the non-DH hunters would have an increase in available 4-point bucks running around to shoot at.


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## Ray

I don’t see the DH program as a major contributing factor to the declining deer herds.

I’m actually hopeful for the next few years, this year, I’ve seen way more young bucks than in the past several years combined


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## DallanC

More bucks came from more fawns surviving, which probably has been due to milder winters the past couple years, more than anything else.

-DallanC


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## blacksage

PBH said:


> If you implemented any kind of "three point or bigger" or "four point" -- wouldn't that do exactly opposite of what you want it to do? If you only allow 4-point bucks to be killed, then there wouldn't be any more 4-point bucks running around.
> 
> 
> If you really want to change the rule for DH, you should change it to 3-points or less! Then all the non-DH hunters would have an increase in available 4-point bucks running around to shoot at.


I don't want the rule. I was just asking him why DH's should have certain standards and not others.


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## PBH

the question wasn't necessarily intended for you (blacksage) but to the guy recommending the point restriction rule (taxidermist).


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## taxidermist

I thought that the DH program was for those that count the number of antler points for a photo shoot to get some "creds". In all honesty, I don't think there is anything any of us can do about bettering the deer population.

Drop the number of tags by XXX and increase the tag cost by XXX to compensate for the revenue lost in the lesser number of tags. Make it if you draw a tag in 2021 you cant apply until 2023. It's simple economics. Look at the cost of lumber a year ago, astronomical pricing. Folks still purchased it because they had to have it. The lumber resource was there, just not any one in the mills cutting it. We have less deer now, so the only way I know as "HUNTERS" to help out, is to lessen the take and let them grow.

Anyway, back to the topic.... I had a great time hunting the ML season this year. It's always great to get out and dream of the big one making its way back to camp with your tag on it. I'm disappointed with the number of deer I saw and little dink bucks in an area that once produced big mature bucks.


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## PBH

Taxidermist -- is deer hunting (ie: male "buck" deer) the problem with the current deer populations? Would your proposal (reduce tags for male "buck" deer) result in higher deer population numbers? Or would more male "buck" deer result in lower fawn survival rate, resulting in lower overall population numbers?

I don't believe that deer hunting is the problem, and thus don't believe lowering tag numbers to "let them grow" is the answer.


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## DallanC

PBH said:


> Taxidermist -- is deer hunting (ie: male "buck" deer) the problem with the current deer populations? Would your proposal (reduce tags for male "buck" deer) result in higher deer population numbers? Or would more male "buck" deer result in lower fawn survival rate, resulting in lower overall population numbers?


Its a very good point, that people often overlook. Does make more fawns. Few bucks can service lots of does.

_IF_ we are at carrying capacity for a deer herd at a winter range, having more bucks means having less does surviving. That in turn translates into fewer fawns the following year.

Is this the case everywhere? No... but in specific areas? I believe so. One thing to note, I think carrying capacity is a variable, dependent on the severity of the winter. One area might be at carrying capacity for a average winter, but could be well over capacity in a massive winter.



> I don't believe that deer hunting is the problem, and thus don't believe lowering tag numbers to "let them grow" is the answer.


Agreed. And you can indirectly prove this by looking in the state and national parks where hunting is not allowed. We don't see huge over populated herds, nor do we see a huge population of massive antlered bucks running around.

-DallanC


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## taxidermist

Less tags = less deer killed period. You talk about winter range and if it can sustain the amount of the area deer population....The winter ranges have been developed and there isn't a winter range anymore in areas like the Wasatch West unit. Not to mention the freeways and the 10' fences to keep the deer from entering the roads AND MIGRATING. Man has destroyed the habitat to populate themselves and have homes on the hill to overlook the valley.

Remember the old highway between Nephi and Levan prior to the freeway extending through? It was terrifying driving that road in the 80's because of all the deer. The coal trucks were like deer slayers hitting dozens of deer each night. That area hasn't been overpopulated with humans and there homes "YET" so explain why the deer in that area are at below half of what they were.

Its all a sh!t show with the management that's happening now. Doesn't matter I guess, just as long as I get my tag every year so I can see a few deer and maybe a fork horn to blast.  Why do you think they offer the hunts they do to the Youth? The old man has lost interest because it isn't like it was seeing multiple bucks a day and a camp with 4 points hanging in the trees. The youth will wise up and see what is going on when they reach their 20's and grip like I am now.

It sure isn't like it was, and never will be again. That's a fact, and if anyone believes otherwise, they need to see the Neurologist to see what brain damage they have.


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## MooseMeat

taxidermist said:


> It sure isn't like it was, and never will be again. That's a fact, and if anyone believes otherwise, they need to see the Neurologist to see what brain damage they have.


But… but… $FW, the wildlife board and DWR all promised us that restricting us as hunters even more 10 years ago by going to unit by unit management would work! And just 2 years ago we had a record post harvest deer count! You mean they lied to us?? 🙄


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## PBH

taxidermist said:


> Less tags = less deer killed period.
> 
> The winter ranges have been developed and there isn't a winter range anymore in areas like the Wasatch West unit. Not to mention the freeways and the 10' fences to keep the deer from entering the roads AND MIGRATING. Man has destroyed the habitat to populate themselves and have homes on the hill to overlook the valley.
> 
> Remember the old highway between Nephi and Levan prior to the freeway extending through? It was terrifying driving that road in the 80's because of all the deer. The coal trucks were like deer slayers hitting dozens of deer each night. That area hasn't been overpopulated with humans and there homes "YET" *so explain why the deer in that area are at below half of what they were*.


Are you saying that the deer population in that area are at half of what they were due to hunting? Remember, the majority of hunting is only for male deer. And each male deer can breed numerous (10 - 12?) does. So all it takes is a few bucks to maintain a population. *I do NOT believe that hunting is the reason for population declines.*

I actually think that many of the other things you mentioned are partially to blame. I would throw in drought (climate change), elk populations, changes in ranching, and habitat degradation (due to everything mentioned). But not hunting.


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## DallanC

PBH said:


> And each male deer can breed numerous (10 - 12?) does.


14. The DWR did a study in the Indianola valley many years ago and reduced the population down to 7:100 and still found population #s remained the same as the does were getting bred.

-DallanC


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## OldGeezer

Our final family tally for the muzzle loader deer hunt was three bucks. My son got a 25.5" 3x4, my 13 year old grandson got a 24.5" 4x4, and his 16 year old sister got a spike. We couldn't find any bucks on the private land we got to hunt so we switched to public land and did much better. The private land had too many cows eating the place out.


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## taxidermist

PBH, I never intended the lack of deer numbers was caused from hunting. Its caused from mismanagement of the resource under changing circumstances. Such as, lack of winter range from urban sprawl and on and on and on. With the lower deer numbers, it's only logical (to me) that deer tags should be reduced in order to try and leave some bucks to breed the does. 

I do know this though....There sure the hell isn't the deer that there was in the 80's and early 90's. I know the hard winter in 93 wiped out a lot of deer. It seems it hasn't recovered since that time. I sure don't have the answers to the million dollar question, but it's sad to see what is happening or, NOT happening.


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## PBH

taxidermist said:


> With the lower deer numbers, it's only logical (to me) that deer tags should be reduced in order to try and leave some bucks to breed the does.


If 1 buck can breed 14 does, then how many bucks do we need to breed the does to sustain the herd?

It doesn't make sense to restrict hunting bucks if there are enough bucks to breed the does as per the current populations goals. If we have a surplus of bucks, then we might be counterproductive by allowing mature bucks to live which would take the place of multiple fawns.

Maybe the answer here is that we need to give out _more_ tags?



I think it's easy for us to sit back and say that the DWR is mis-managing. But it isn't hard to look around the entire West and see that mule deer are struggling. It isn't just Utah. And it [obviously] isn't a simple solution.


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## DallanC

PBH said:


> I think it's easy for us to sit back and say that the DWR is mis-managing. But it isn't hard to look around the entire West and see that mule deer are struggling. It isn't just Utah. And it [obviously] isn't a simple solution.


Its interesting to note, the earliest record we have of Mule Deer is the Lewis and Clark journals. They mention the "Big eared deer"... and also note they were kind of rare even back then.

Possibly... possibly their population has historically always been low, and the farmer / rancher war on predators, coupled with lack of development at the time, caused conditions where the populations jumped up (temporarily), but now as predator populations increase, range gets developed, highways, automobile accidents, winter storms... the herd populations are continually returning to their historic low levels.

-DallanC


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## APD

Scheels just got a supply of power belts in today if anyone is looking. Also had a nice supply of Hornady projectiles.


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## Ray

They have 250gr with the hornady projectiles?


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## MooseMeat

Ray said:


> They have 250gr with the hornady projectiles?


The SSTs? I got a couple packs you can have if you want. 1 is unopened I think, then I have at least 1 partial, maybe 2. I won’t use them anymore


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## Ray

I’ll buy them off you! Why won’t you use them anymore?


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## DallanC

I was hopeful when SSTs came out with that great bullet BC, but held off to see the initial field reports. What alot of people who used them said, is the jacket is very soft on them and they come apart very easy. Lot of disgruntled people who had (in their opinion) poor performance, especially on elk.

I was hoping the SST was basically a XTP with a tip for a much higher BC. But it sounds like while it is a high SD bullet, it doesn't even come close to the XTPs sturdy construction, depth of penetration and devastating wound channel.

I got swayed earlier in the year by all of the new tech, new guns (CVA Accura) and blew a bunch of money and had alot of frustration trying the new powders and crap. This summer I just gave up... went back old school. 

Sold the CVA Accura (hands down the worst shooting gun from comfort and accuracy I've ever tried). No more BH209 powder, no more 209 breech plugs, primers, tools etc and whatnot ... no more fancy new high BC bullets... heck, I rarely shoot over 100 yards anyway. 5-6 years ago I had a few years in a row with some 140-155 yard shots, but everything since has been back under 60 yards. Its more fun.

My 2004 Remington still can shoot cloverleafs with XTPs and Pyro... if I do my part. Simple 240 XTP over 90gr pyro for deer, 300gr XTP over 110 pyro for elk. It just works, always. I did switch over to Harvester Crush Rib sabots from the Hornady sabots, it increased consistency overall. Good enough. 

Old School rocks.

-DallanC


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## APD

Ray said:


> They have 250gr with the hornady projectiles?


Not sure but they had a pretty full wall of the SST.


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## Ray

this year, I ran with a 250gr Remington premier expander, which is actually made by Barnes and it performed phenomenally, it put a thumb sized hole on the entrance/exit wound, granted, the buck was a doinker but he was 120 yards.

shot it with 100gr triple7 pellets and triple7 primer, this setup seems to work well for me.


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## blacksage

APD said:


> Scheels just got a supply of power belts in today if anyone is looking. Also had a nice supply of Hornady projectiles.


Lost deer using Powerbelts. Thank god I stocked up on Barnes last year.


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## MooseMeat

Ray said:


> I’ll buy them off you! Why won’t you use them anymore?


I shoot powerbelts out of my CVA now, and in my ultimate i shoot Barnes.


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## PHall

Heard a rumor of a 212" buck taken off the upper end of chalk creek near whitney during the muzzy, can anyone substantiate this?


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