# Sacred Ground



## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Its just about that time of year and this is something I feel is very important and dear to my heart. It seems some will never "get it" and some just need a friendly reminder...

_By Dwight Schuh, Bowhunter Magazine (about 20 years ago)_
*Sacred Ground*

Many years ago, a friend and I backpacked 10 miles into a wilderness for deer and elk. I'd planned to go alone but when he asked if he could go I said sure, with one condition - he wouldn't tell other people about this particular spot. After all, I'd spent four hunting seasons, plus countless hours and money scouting, learning the area. Yes, it was public land, open to anybody, but my personal knowledge wasn't for public broadcast.

My friend said he wouldn't utter a word. That was good enough for me, and away we went. We saw lots of deer and elk and few other hunters. Everything was sweet.

At least it was until the following winter when I learned that some hunters from our town had killed several big bucks during the rifle season - in the very spot where we had been. How did they learn about that spot? I wondered. The answer was not good. My friend had told them. Apparently he thought it was okay. After all, I wouldn't be there during the rifle season. Besides, I'd probably never find out. What would it hurt?

But it did hurt. It hurt because they'd taken the very animals that made this spot special to me, animals I'd worked years to find. It hurt because those hunters, who'd invested none of themselves there, probably had less than full respect or appreciation for that place. It hurt most of all because my trust and confidence had been violated. I felt betrayed.

We all have our favorite spots, places where we've invested our time, our money, our experience, our feelings, our lives. These places can be diverse - a remote elk basin, a whitetail scrape line and the back 40, an antelope water hole, a ridge with some big mule deer - but they all have common qualities. They're places we've found with our own ingenuity, our sweat, our time, our study. We might cherish some spots because of their hunting quality, but we love others just because we discovered them on our own, or we never see anyone else there, or we have had special feelings or experiences there. Whatever the reasons, these special places often become more than just good hunting spots to us. They become sacred ground.

Violation of quality

A friend of mine used to hunt a brushy little bowl in Washington where he could always see a couple of bears. Despite his best efforts, he never killed one of them, but just going there and seeing bears gave him hope and good memories. Wanting to share his joy he invited a buddy along. That was good. But later, the buddy took his brother, and the brother invited two of his pals, who killed two bears. In a very tangible sense, my friend had seen the quality of his spot eroded - as a product of his own generosity. He felt very much as I did in the scenario described at the beginning. Trying to be good guys, we'd both got burned.

Hunting of public lands, my bear hunting friend and I did not lose our right to hunt. We may have felt robbed or violated, but at least we could continue hunting our sacred grounds. But on private land, the result could be more devastating. M.R. James, editor and founder of Bowhunter, talked about a common scenario.

"You have permission to hunt a farm, a place you've hunted for years, and you invite a buddy to hunt with you. That's okay, because the landowner doesn't mind. But then that buddy shows up with a bunch of his friends, and things start snowballing, and the landowner gets angry and closes his land to everyone - including you.

When that happens, you feel violated, because other people don't regard a place as special, when you do," James said.

On a similar there, I've talked to hunters who've invited guests to hunt their favorite private property - only to have the guests later lease the hunting rights there and lock them out altogether. Violations of sacred ground can have some very obvious and negative effects on hunting quality.

Violation of Respect

A few years ago a friend and I were skinning a bull elk in the bottom of a canyon, a place I'd discovered on my own several years before. It was a wild place, hard to reach, special to me in its loneliness. I'd never seen anyone else there and never expected to. But right at dark, as we worked on the elk, we spied a hunter climbing up towards us.

"Hi, Dwight," the hunter said, as casually as if we'd planned to meet right there for coffee.

"Do I know you?" I said. He was wearing a face mask, and the light was dim.

When he pulled off his mask, I recognized Monte Moravec, a longbow maker from Missoula. I was incredulous, not just at seeing someone there but someone I knew. "Monte, what in the world are you doing down here?"

"I've been hunting this canyon for 15 years," Monte said. "You're the first person I've ever seen here. I didn't think anyone else was crazy enough to hunt here."

We laughed, and then Monte helped us finish skinning the elk, and together we all hiked out to the trail at midnight. It was a grand reunion, not only because we'd renewed a friendship, but because we found we shared a common bond. Sacred ground.

I've always believed that appreciation is proportionate to time and effort expended, and that's why I've never resented meeting someone like Monte in the field, someone who has paid his dues and respects the place as much as I do. It's his sacred ground, too. But people who have invested none of themselves in a place have no foundation for respect. Did those rifle hunters who killed the deer truly appreciate and revere that place as much as I did? I don't know, but I doubt it because appreciation comes not from what you take out of a place but from what you invest into it - your time, effort and emotions. And I know those hunters invested nothing but a quick horse ride and a few bullets. From my point of view, they raped and ran.

Why does this bother me? I look at it this way. When someone (you consider) undeserving invades your area and kills a bunch of game there, or leases the place out from under you, you maybe irritated or disappointed, but you might understand their motives and accept the loss, because those are outward offenses. They're strictly practical business.

In contrast, when someone fails to understand your feelings and tramples your reverence for the land, you feel hurt, because the issue goes beyond business. It becomes personal. Your feelings are made a mockery. That's why it makes sense to protect sacred ground. You're protecting not only a piece of land, but your own heart.

Violation of Honor

If you say to someone, "Listen, this place is special to me. I'm happy to share with you, but please don't take in other people," the meaning is clear enough. If he's not willing to abide by that agreement, he should say no, and you can go your separate ways, friendly or otherwise. But, if he agrees to hunt with you and not tell anyone, and then breaks that agreement, he's lied to you. In this sense, the issue is honesty, and the question would be, who wants to hunt with someone who would lie to them?

But the issue really goes far beyond honesty, to a deeper level called honor. Even if the subject of who can hunt where is never discussed, it's implicit in the relationship between hunters, one of the unwritten laws of hunting. When you invited someone to a hunting spot you've found, and they agree to go as an invited guest, they should respect that as your spot. And unless they discuss it with you and get your okay, they should not even think about going back by themselves, let alone intentionally telling someone else or inviting other people there.

Of course, looking at the flip side of this, none of us has the right to try to tie up all the good hunting land for ourselves. Bow hunter Kevin Kennedy told me a friend of his had invited him to hunt a special little area, but in order to go, Kevin had to promise he'd not only never hunt that particular spot again, but that, potentially, he'd never set foot in the entire mountain range again.. "That's ridiculous," Kevin said. "I like the guy and want to hunt with him, but he's so proprietary I won't do it. If I followed his rule, I'd never be able to hunt on my own anywhere in the whole state."

I sometimes turn down hunting invitations for the same reason, especially when someone makes outrageous demands of secrecy. At the practical level, I don't want anyone's rule to limit my own freedom to explore and discover. At a deeper level, what if they take me some place that I really wasn't to hunt again, a place I might have discovered on my own? Frankly, I'd rather not know where they hunt than to be tempted to violate their trust. So I just say, "No thanks."

Which may bring us to the very crux of this discussion. Indeed, it is a sad moment when another hunter violates your confidence and defiles your sacred ground. I can think of only on this worse - doing it to someone else. It's a matter of honor. It's sacred ground.

[blockquote:167q21kt]*Note from the moderators:* _The UWN forum rules prohibit copying and pasting copyrighted materials on the site (We hate nasty letters from lawyers). This is still the rule, but we're making a one-time exception here since_ Bowhunter Magazine _is fully credited and the article is 20 years old. If the copyright owner requests that we remove the story, we will do so immediately._[/blockquote:167q21kt]


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Some nice opinions!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

So who wrote this piece? Probably should cite your source, but nonetheless, nice incite and thanks for sharing.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Sorry Jahan, good catch. I added the credit to Dewight Schuh at the top of my post.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

That's a great article and I'm happy to see the issue come up.

BUT, I've often told people I don't always follow traditional thinking and, I have to admit, this is one of those issues. Though I now understand and respect someone else wanting to keep their sacred spot "unviolated" (That lesson cost me a good hunting buddy.), I don't feel that way about my own discovered "sacred spots". I actually enjoy sharing what I've discovered with some of the people I know. Maybe that's because I also enjoy finding new places to hunt. And maybe also because I'm not hung up on harvesting only trophies and I always ask those I tell to keep it "low profile", but more for their sake than mine. 

Let's put it this way, there is nearly 30 million acres of public accessible deer habitat in the state of Utah and I would like to check every acre! And what I don't get around to, you can check out. And, though the other animals don't have so much habitat to check, there aren't as many hunters either. Folks, there are more honey holes than you can possibly imagine!

Now that you know my weird viewpoint, you probably don't want to tell me about your honey hole. But then I've never asked, on this forum or any other, have I? And I won't, 'cause half the fun in my hunting world is studying maps and aerials, studying the animals' traits and habits, reading various reports, really studying the proclamations, and watching my 200+ hunting videos. I do some scouting, but not the same places year to year. And I usually end up with a plan A, plan B, plan C, and plan D, which suits me just fine.

As I've said on other posts, ain't it great that we all have our own hunting philosophies, methods and techniques. I hope we can continue to keep it that way!

Now, let's hear some other views.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Sacred is a little strong. I think we've all been there where we take someone to the fishing or hunting spot, and the "just between us" doesn't hold worth beans. Bottom line, we all love the fix, and we recognize it when we see it. Don't be surprised if you take someone to your favorite spot and they are inspired. That's why it was/is your favorite spot. 

That said, we can all do each other a favor by respecting if we are asked to. A friend got permission to access private ground and then he added one more friend, with permission. He then asked me to join and said he could potentially get it to happen for him. I asked him not to ask, and wished him luck. It's not in his best interests to look out for mine, and I know that's the surest way to guarantee that never happens again. I think I chose that path because I've been burned before, and he is my friend. 

Lastly, I think the dude we never should have invited to our honey hole, namely Utah, is the special interest gorilla that goes by the name of conservation and has a silicon botox dripping honey who expo-ses herself each year. Pretty from afar, but far from a pretty. Talk about the wheeler that runs through our hunting traditions and choices, well, there you have it. IMO, it takes sacred right out of the conversation, though I do agree with Elkfromabove. Opportunity is still there, even though it has changed big time over our lives, and it is always going to be about what you make of it. 

Seriously. I live in Texas. There is a lot of opportunity here, but you need access, cash, or a buddy with a ranch, or else. Public land opportunity is in tiny fractions of what is enjoyed in Utah. Enjoy it while you have it, and if you get hung up on one spot there's a solution - don't take anyone there.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Elkfromabove, I appreciate your comments and I don't disagree. I too enjoy sharing. In fact I get more satisfaction helping someone else harvest or packout their "trophy" than I do my own (well almost). I love sharing a cool hunting spot or property with a friend. However, that has bit me in the ass on several occasions. There have been times in my hunting career where my "friends" have not treated me with the same respect. Sharing your "secret" spot or private property with a friend and then have them show up with 5 of their friends can be extremely frustrating. 

It is ironic to me the thing I love most (hunting) can also cause me some of the most heartache.


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## shaun larsen (Aug 5, 2011)

bwhntr said:


> However, that has bit me in **** several occasions. There have been times in my hunting career where my "friends" have not treated me with the same respect. Sharing your "secret" spot or private property with a friend and then have them show up with 5 of their friends can be extremely frustrating.
> 
> It is ironic to me the thing I love most (hunting) can also cause me some of the most heartache.


isnt that the truth! your friends arent always who you think they are... i learned the hard way to keep your "sacred ground" a secret. good post!


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## quakeycrazy (Sep 18, 2007)

Good post, Dwight is a great outdoorsman. Bottom line, be a man of your word, respect others feelings and don't accept the invitation if you can't keep what you promised. It is not hard or too much to expect.


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## HighmtnFish (Jun 3, 2010)

I enjoyed the article, there is a lot of truth to it. My Family hunts in an area (on public land) where we have ran a sheep herd for 150 years. There are trees with my great grandpa's name carved in them. It seems like every rock and tree up there reminds me of some experience that happened to me or some story that happened to one of my ancestors. Needless to say, I will always hunt there. But it breaks my heart when I see or hear about someone new coming into the area and abusing the land and wildlife and it seems to be happening more and more lately. So I don't share information about where I hunt with anyone but family members, those who respect the land and the animals that live on it.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Respect... something that is earned, though often taken lightly...

I no longer invite people to places I personally hunt because of the poor return on investment...


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

a great post and it sure makes me think of the times i have to shared a secret place with a individual only to have it come back and kick me in the gonads. i smile thinking of how many times my son has gotten peeved at me to the point on a couple of occasions we have indeed had words, reading this i am reminded that he is alot more right than i am he has seen me get burned by friends and while i right them off as hunting partners the damage is done and the places are never the same. he and my nephew have there spots and while i know of them it would be the greatest of trust failures to let them out so i made him and my nephew a promise that even i wouldnt hunt there i may take vidios and stills of the great bucks there but i would never feel good about harvesting one of them. it is indeed a rare and charished thing to have someone trust you and letting you know about a area like that and it is totally horrable to violate said trust by letting the information out to the outside becouse while it may not be sacred to all it is indeed a sacred trust to let someone know these areas and unforgivable to violate the said trust.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

That's why there are only 3 people who I'll hunt with. I've hunted with lots of people in my life and have weeded them down to the 3 I trust and who trust me.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Just curious if you guys think there's a time limit on "sacred ground". Say if someone shows you a place 20 years ago and they have not hunted it in 15 years and have no plans on hunting it again. Then would it be ok with you to go ahead and tell a good friend about it?
Also, question #2. What if you ask on this forum about an area and a member comes forward and tells you that the area is not worth hunting but you scout this area out anyway because you feel good about it. Then after this member finds out you are planning on taking up a couple good friends hunting there, he tells you that this is one of his hunting spots and that's why he lied about it. Does he have the right to get mad? even if you have done all your own homework and scouting in this area. o-||


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Every scenerio should be handled by differently. There is no blanketed answer for everything. However, I think the bottom line (at least for me) if you earned it then its yours. If you are a guest treat it as so and leave it be. I have a couple of public areas I like to duck hunt. These areas were shared with me by friends who trusted me. I respect that. The very few times I have visited these areas I call the individual and ask if its ok if I hunt it. This is how I show my appreciation and respect to them.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

I have to smile when I read some of your posts on this thread. Limiting your hunting partners, making phone calls to ask for permission to hunt public property, splitting up family hunts, claiming public property as your own, locking up so much emotion in a few acres of God's wonderful vast creation, classifying hunters' worthiness based on whether they "earned" the right to be there, and getting upset when someone "violates" those few acres by showing up is indicative of the trophy mentality we've come to. Has trophy hunting become such a religion that we now have "sacred" places? No wonder the Southern boys thought/think it's their mountain and it's getting too crowded. But don't worry, 2012's hunts will change all of that! Or will it make it worse?


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

elkfromabove said:


> I have to smile when I read some of your posts on this thread. Limiting your hunting partners, making phone calls to ask for permission to hunt public property, splitting up family hunts, claiming public property as your own, locking up so much emotion in a few acres of God's wonderful vast creation, classifying hunters' worthiness based on whether they "earned" the right to be there, and getting upset when someone "violates" those few acres by showing up is indicative of the trophy mentality we've come to. Has trophy hunting become such a religion that we now have "sacred" places? No wonder the Southern boys thought/think it's their mountain and it's getting too crowded. But don't worry, 2012's hunts will change all of that! Or will it make it worse?


+1

I feel pretty similar. I know lots of great hunting spots and am not worried about sharing them...because there are millions more. Sometimes I wonder if people know how massive this state is. I want to hunt everywhere. I don't want to be confined to one "honey hole" my whole life. I think we should all be able to share, teach and learn from each other. There is no point of hiding some spot just to die and never have shared that with multiple friends and loved ones.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm sorry you are reading into this as "trophy hunting". For me hunting is my time to get out of the concrete world and breathe. Time I spend hiking, hunting, or even on top of my horse is the time I get to reflect on whats really important to me. This weekend I had the opportunity to leave work early and rush to the high country to look for a lost boy scout. This time I knew the lost one and I couldn't get up there fast enough. The Friday evening was perfect weather and I spent most of the night on a "midnight" horse ride. The circumstances were stressful, but being up in the country was remarkable.

This year I am looking forward to sharing this freedom with my wife. This is her first year archery hunting and we are excited to get out and spend time together in some of my favorite hunting areas. These areas are very special to me. I admit I hunt for what you call a "trophy". It is using the "trophy" excuse that keeps me on the mountain for extended days or weeks. Looking for that special animal gives me more time to enjoy nature. Is that wrong? These areas and time spent is considered sacred to me. I hope that my wife finds that same "sacred" feeling and cherishes the upcoming week we will share together in my own sacred ground.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

I think it comes down to simple respect for me. I have shared many of my honey holes and never requested anyone not to share, but if I ever do ask I would hope they would be respectful and do as I asked. Same goes the other way around, if I was invited into someones honey hole and they requested that I keep it hush hush, I would be respectful and not share the spot. Something that I have noticed is no matter how much you think a spot is "yours" or nobody else knows about it, there is always someone or multiple people. 

Me and my brother-in-law use to hike into this particular elk spot and we rarely saw people and assumed we usually had the spot to ourselves. We had figured out the elks routine and decided to get in to a spot before light to get an elk on their way to water. I hiked my butt off to get into the spot and the elk were coming in just right until about 150 yards above me they took off. I thought, there is no way they winded me, I was confused. Well I started hiking back out and asked my brother-in-lawwhat happened and he said there was a guy up about 200 yards from me in the other group of trees and he spooked the elk. Well on our way out we ran into this guy and talked with him for quite some time and he said he has been hunting this spot for 20 years and we were the first people he has saw in there in sometime. Point is, there is no such thing as secret spots, but there may be spots that don't get hit as hard.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't want to make this thread about negative experiences because for me hunting and being in the outdoors is what I consider theraputic....That being said I will share a story about why this article "Sacred Ground" is so important to me.

There is a small corner in this state I have hunted my entire life, public ground even. My great grandparents, grandparents, dad, and family have all hunted it. It is a special place to me. When I am there it isn't so much about the deer or elk, but a place full of memories. Hunting is just a vehicle to take me back.

After a 9 day archery hunt and many close but not quite connected contacts with some nice bull elk I came home empty handed. It was a great hunt. A close "friend" of mine asked about the hunt and asked if I would take him there to kill his first Utah bull elk on the upcoming rifle hunt. This is asking alot from me. This place is special to me not only for the great elk but because of the history. I agree with a history lesson on what this place means to me. This hunt was to be for him and I only.

The day before the hunt he invites another friend. Hmmmm...ok. Opening morning he kills a nice 320 bull. We pack it out and he promises to never return. The next season my little brother who has never hunted elk asks for the same experience. Absolutely, this is my brother! Opening morning we walk in the dark to the chosen spot we are guaranteed to find elk. As we sit we hear horses walking in...my "friend" showed up with four other friends. They sat within 40 yards of my brother and killed two bulls right in front of him. My brother didn't get a chance. He was so frustrated.


He didn't walk away from that hunt with the same feelings I get when I am there.  I have always hated that experience for him.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

That is quite a frustrating experience. I'm all about sharing but it's a whole other issue when you ask something of someone then they don't come through. Especially when you told them what a special area it was to you. By the way what canyon was that again...? haha


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Lol...funny!


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

bwhntr said:


> I don't want to make this thread about negative experiences because for me hunting and being in the outdoors is what I consider theraputic....That being said I will share a story about why this article "Sacred Ground" is so important to me.
> 
> There is a small corner in this state I have hunted my entire life, public ground even. My great grandparents, grandparents, dad, and family have all hunted it. It is a special place to me. When I am there it isn't so much about the deer or elk, but a place full of memories. Hunting is just a vehicle to take me back.
> 
> ...


I can understand your brother's frustration, but this was only one hunt. And if it permanently sets his attitude about that family hunting spot based on the fact that there were rude "friends" there and he didn't get an elk, I think he needs to reset some priorities. Many of our memories about family and hunting have some negativity in them. Surely, of all the hunts your family has been on in that "sacred spot", some of them have not gone so well. But did that diminish the bond they had with one another or the "sacred spot? Apparently not!

One of my most memorable and treasured hunts was down by Scipio during a midnight blizzard where we had to push a half dozen vehicles up a slippery freezing cold hill in order to get all of the hunters out of there. And nobody ever fired a shot on that hill. We ended up coming home to Magna and hiking up to Farnsworth Peak from Big Canyon on the Lake Point side. And, no, we didn't get any deer that year. It wasn't funny at the time, but what great conversations we had around the campfire afterward! Did we abandon the Scipio area from then on? Absolutely not. The next year, on opening day, I shot 3 bucks while the rest of the crew fixed a late breakfast in camp (Party hunting was not much of an issue in those days.).

And as far as the isolation/getting away aspect of it, we can do that outside of the hunt. You even suggest it's not just the deer and elk that draw you there. If hunting is your only excuse for doing that, perhaps you need to find another excuse! And as far as the hunting aspect goes, if plan A is your only plan, it's really going to be hard dealing with hunts in the future.

Perhaps this issue also deals with inflexibility. I have a favorite waterhole where I hunt from a treestand. And I know others know about it because it's visible from the road. If I happen to be late opening morning and find someone else at the site, I'll just go to one of my other treestands, 'cause I have 3 of them and plan on setting up 3 more. Last year, I only had a day to arrow an antelope buck and had to set up a blind the day before. I ended up shooting a herd buck (not P&Y) on my 4th choice waterhole 'cause #1 and #2 choice had blinds on them and #3 had cattle around it and the cattle had crushed down the cattails and reeds I used for cover. And I had a great hunt! A 12 yard shot with an Epek and he only went another 12 yards. And I was home by noon!! And the meat was excellent. My daughter-in-law even liked the sausage.

Of course, I suspect not a lot of people on this forum will agree with me, but some of you will, and we need to remember that not everyone thinks like we do and we need to respect that. (That's why I finally joined UWC. And that's why I oppose the upcoming/proposed big game hunting regulations and procedures.)

Hunting is an important part of life for most of us, but hunting isn't life!!


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't think you 100% understand where I come from. Its not about the kill, its not about the "trophy", believe me I have plenty of places to hunt. Never have I been limited to one spot.

Its about respect, trust, finding something special and sharing it with people that feel the same way. Its about being a good steward. In fact I think someone never putting in the time, just coming in to kill is the exact opposite of what I call a true hunter. I don't want to share a special place (with trophies or not) with someone who's only intention is to kill, and bring in all their buddies to kill and leave the place to rot. Even hunting chukars or huns, I hunt with people that don't kill all the birds. If a small covey gets up only take one or two birds then leave the rest. 

This article just sums up how I feel about hunting and the people I hunt with. If you don't feel the same that is ok, we don't have to hunt together. I have never been one of those people that feels the need to push my own agenda onto others, just sharing my opinion.


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## chkrhntr (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm shocked that everyone is so inclined to classify the rifle hunter who acted on a tip from their buddy as "rape and run" "disrepectful" and even deciding they are not "true hunters". So if your freind says, hey I saw a ton of nice bucks on X mountain, and you decide to go hunt up there the next season your not a true hunter?????

bwhntr I respect your opinion and would love to hunt with you. We'll just do it in my spot so no feelings get hurt.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

chkrhntr said:


> bwhntr I respect your opinion and would love to hunt with you. We'll just do it in my spot so no feelings get hurt.


Lol...ok, this fall chukar hunt??? I will provide the horses. :mrgreen:


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## chkrhntr (Sep 20, 2007)

You bet! if you come my way, I'll provide the mounts so you don't have to trailer yours if you'd like. We could also combine huns with the chuks out here. Say when


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

We can hunt huns with chukar here too...where you at?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

bwhntr, You're undoubtedly right about me not understanding your viewpoint 100% because no one can fill another's shoes to that extent, but I do understand your frustrations about being betrayed. That's why I referred to the "friend" as rude. He was!! As I wrote in an earlier post, I was once one of those rude friends and it cost me a hunting buddy and you can bet I'd never do it again. But that has to do with someone else's "sacred spot", not mine. I guess I just don't regard any one hunting spot on God's Earth as "sacred" and exclusive to me. I just happen to find certain places that are beautiful in their own way, that are attractive to wildlife, that draw me and my loved ones back often enough to have experiences together, and those places become favorites. But the whole earth is 'sacred" and I would love to see it all. However, that's not possible in one person's lifetime, so I'll just confine my search for other favorite places to the 46,548 square miles (approx.) of Utah's wildlife (deer) habitat. That'll keep me busy enough. And maybe we'll run into each other, huh! 

FWIW, I do the homework and legwork, that's how I came up with antelope waterhole #4, (I actually know about 20 of them in Pine Valley and about another 20 of them in SW Desert.). And the same with deer, elk, and moose. I hope that makes me a true hunter.

BTW, I think we could hunt together just fine! I know I'd welcome you in my camp and I would keep your camp sacred and not left to rot, whatever that means.
This is an interesting, informative and enjoyable thread. Thanks for creating it!


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

:mrgreen: At the very least it is good discussion before the hunt this weekend.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I just don't regard any one hunting spot on God's Earth as "sacred" and exclusive to me. I just happen to find certain places that are beautiful in their own way, that are attractive to wildlife, that draw me and my loved ones back often enough to have experiences together, and those places become favorites. But the whole earth is 'sacred" and I would love to see it all.


I think bwhntr feels pretty much that same way you do. This paragraph in the article sums up what your trying to say... I think... 

A few years ago a friend and I were skinning a bull elk in the bottom of a canyon, a place I'd discovered on my own several years before. It was a wild place, hard to reach, special to me in its loneliness. I'd never seen anyone else there and never expected to. But right at dark, as we worked on the elk, we spied a hunter climbing up towards us."Hi, Dwight," the hunter said, as casually as if we'd planned to meet right there for coffee."Do I know you?" I said. He was wearing a face mask, and the light was dim.When he pulled off his mask, I recognized Monte Moravec, a longbow maker from Missoula. It was incredulous, not just at seeing someone there but someone I knew. "Monte, what in the world are you doing down here?""I've been hunting this canyon for 15 years," Monte said. "You're the first person I've ever seen here. I didn't think anyone else was crazy enough to hunt here."We laughed, and then Monte helped us finish skinning the elk, and together we all hiked out to the trail at midnight. It was a grand reunion, not only because we'd renewed a friendship, but because we found we shared a common bond. Sacred ground.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

elkfromabove said:


> I guess I just don't regard any one hunting spot on God's Earth as "sacred" and exclusive to me. I just happen to find certain places that are beautiful in their own way, that are attractive to wildlife, that draw me and my loved ones back often enough to have experiences together, and those places become favorites. But the whole earth is 'sacred" and I would love to see it all. However, that's not possible in one person's lifetime, so I'll just confine my search for other favorite places to the 46,548 square miles (approx.) of Utah's wildlife (deer) habitat. That'll keep me busy enough.......


Very well said....

I guess growing up in a time with 200,000 plus hunters on the mountain at the same time has made me some what callused. I have had to many times where I thought I'd be the only one, to find out that somebody else had the same thought. I'm more inclined to judge or be judged by what transpires at the moment in time of the meeting. Do we respect each other with common courtesy or do we mess up each others hunt. The sacred part of this topic to me is the courtesy part.......


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Tex, Huntoholic, You nailed it! It's the interactions with other hunters who are there at that special place and how we react to them that makes all the difference. I can't control the actions of others, but I can control my reaction to them and I choose not to allow rude behavior by others to taint my view of special places. I know there are jerks among our ranks and that they'll eventually be gone. And I know I have other special places that I can go to if need be. And I choose not to be one of the jerks.

I've decided to hunt opening morning this year in a place/area that I found several years ago. However, I've told a member of this forum about it and asked him to keep it low profile. However, I will not hunt the waterhole I told him about and he'll never know I was there 'til he sees this post. And we'll both have a great hunt in that "sacred" place. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Yes, respect and common courtesy goes a long way in this sport we all love. bwhntr has had both violated bad in recent years by a VERY close friend. That is what prompted him to make this post. I read that article many years ago when it was first published. It's always stayed with me throughout the years and I always make it a point to share it with anyone I intend to spend any time with in the woods or uplands while hunting. That's how bwhntr came across it and now he's sharing it with you guys. Dwight Schuh is one of my favorite people on the planet. I've had the pleasure of swapping stories with him on several occasions and his autograph is in several of my own personal books authored by him. I respect him as a man and a hunter as well as a professional in our sport that deserves to be looked up to by others as an example setter.

Good luck hunting everyone.


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## chkrhntr (Sep 20, 2007)

I have also had the pleasure of meeting Dwight, along with Cameron Hanes who is another outdoorsman and hunter that I have alot of respect for. They are both ultramarathoners and I have run into them (as they passed me. :lol: :lol: ) in a couple races.

I have a ton of repsect for Dwight and the work he has done preserving our sport, but I think he is off base on much of the article referenced above. You are right Tex, respect and courtesy go a long way in this sport, specifically, I don't think there was courtesy or respect shown in the article towards the rifle hunters who were classified as "rape and run" "untrue hunters". Because they hunted an area they heard about and used horses instead of hiking and rifles instead of bows???? or what???
What could Dwight possibly have known about the effort they put into the hunt and the ammount of respect these hunters had for the area or their quarry?

I wish Dwight would have saved the venom in his article for his freind that betrayed his trust. That dude should have his ears boxed for telling people about the spot after he had committed not to. The Rifle hunters made no committment to Dwight to stay out of the area, they were just acting on a tip, like we all do.


GOOD topic and discussion!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

It doesn't matter what weapon those guys used, or how they got in there, they were there because Dwights friend BLABBED and told them about it. Did they find it on their own? No. Did they have the same time, blood, sweat, and tears invested into that place that Dwight did? No. Would they have been hunting in there and shot the place up had they not herd about it from Dwights friend? Probably not. Dwight is BANG ON here in his analogy of "rape and run". Those clowns acted on a tip, ran in there, and shot the place out without having invested anything but a little gas money. Are the rifle hunters the villains? No. That accolade is reserved for Dwights blabbermouth friend. either way, the trust had been betrayed and Dwight felt burned by it. As he should.


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## Charina (Aug 16, 2011)

I suppose this frustration goes back further than recorded history. On a grander scale, this is the matter that wars are often fought over. I have a vague recollection of frontiersmen in the early formative years of the US feeling similar frustrations. They felt their 'special place' was invaded if there was another person settled within several miles distance! That puts a little perspective on the fact that it is our perspective and arbitrary assignment that makes a place special.

Much of my outdoors experience has been in the realms of falconry and reptiles, with a few years of serious big game hunting early on. The finding of a special spot, and the loss of the specialness of that spot is a big issue in falconry and reptile watching. Esp with reptiles as a distance of a mile can change microclimates enough to render one spot a honey-hole and the next less than mediocre. The lamentation of spoiling of a sacred place is a continual one on amateur herping (amphibian/reptile watching) boards. 

Time and again it boils down to - if you want to keep a spot special to yourself, don't share it. If you share it with even one person, chances are greater than not that in a few years time, more than a handful of persons will know of the spot. I’ve watched it happen time and again even with good intentioned people. 

Just don’t share if it is that important to you.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Just curious if you guys think there's a time limit on "sacred ground". Say if someone shows you a place 20 years ago and they have not hunted it in 15 years and have no plans on hunting it again. Then would it be ok with you to go ahead and tell a good friend about it?
> Also, question #2. What if you ask on this forum about an area and a member comes forward and tells you that the area is not worth hunting but you scout this area out anyway because you feel good about it. Then after this member finds out you are planning on taking up a couple good friends hunting there, he tells you that this is one of his hunting spots and that's why he lied about it. Does he have the right to get mad? even if you have done all your own homework and scouting in this area. o-||


1-Couldn't hurt to make a call! Even if they did not make you promise, a little respect goes a long ways. The call would most likely be met with being flattered that you would ask if done graciously.
2-The proper reply would be to pucker up and kiss your south side when northbound. What a crock!


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## chkrhntr (Sep 20, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> It doesn't matter what weapon those guys used, or how they got in there, they were there because Dwights friend BLABBED and told them about it. Did they find it on their own? No. Did they have the same time, blood, sweat, and tears invested into that place that Dwight did? No. Would they have been hunting in there and shot the place up had they not herd about it from Dwights friend? Probably not. Dwight is BANG ON here in his analogy of "rape and run". Those clowns acted on a tip, ran in there, and shot the place out without having invested anything but a little gas money. Are the rifle hunters the villains? No. That accolade is reserved for Dwights blabbermouth friend. either way, the trust had been betrayed and Dwight felt burned by it. As he should.


No doubt Dwight should have felt burned and no doubt his freind was a blabber mouth D BAg.

But are you seriously going to tell me you've never acted on a tip and then been succesful on a hunt? And that doing so makes you a rape and run hunter. That is absurd. Give me a break :roll:


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## shaun larsen (Aug 5, 2011)

chkrhntr said:


> But are you seriously going to tell me you've never acted on a tip and then been succesful on a hunt? And that doing so makes you a rape and run hunter. That is absurd. Give me a break :roll:


for the most part, atleast with me and the people i know and hunt with, their spots are good enough that they dont need/want to act on a "tip" that a place could be a new good spot. some of the places i hunt i found just because i got bored one day and started hiking. people do "rape and run". ive witnessed and heard about it alot. yeah its all public land. we all share it. but when someone trusts you to show you where they hunt, you need to respect their wishes on it being kept a secret. some of the places i hunt is more then just another mountain. its places my family has hunted forever. theres alot of family history in them. it means alot to me and my family. we have a different respect for it then most. people just need to sit back and take a look from our stand point. before you run out and start telling everyone where to go, realize that there is probably someone out there who has put in the time and effort they feel necessary to learn the land and continue a family legacy.


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## chkrhntr (Sep 20, 2007)

shaun larsen said:


> chkrhntr said:
> 
> 
> > But are you seriously going to tell me you've never acted on a tip and then been succesful on a hunt? And that doing so makes you a rape and run hunter. That is absurd. Give me a break :roll:
> ...


 :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Beleive me, I am the last person in the world that needs a lecture on putting time and effort into finding hunting areas.
You miss my point. From what we know, the rifle hunters had no idea Dwights had wishes that they not hunt there. What are they guilty of? Dwights freind is the d bag, not the people he tipped off.
How do we know they didn't make scouting trips into the area and locate the bucks they wanted before the season? What if the only tip they get was "hey, I saw some nice bucks on x mountain" and they took 5 trips up there throughout the summer to scout it out? are they still "rape and run"? From the article, we have no idea, and to classify them that way is ignorant and a poor example of how we should act as sportsman.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Well, I guess you've made your point about the rape and run victims Dwight so thoughtlessly accused in the article. I guess if you want to dissect the article and dwell on one small point that's your prerogative. And yes, I have acted on a tip and I have "Raped and Ran". We all have I suppose. Still doesn't make it right... I'll tell you this. Those adventures meant little to me in comparison to the ones I found all by my self. After all, ones success can only be measured by how much real and personal effort went into it. You seem like a fair and diplomatic guy, surely you can see my side of this as well?


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Well, I guess you've made your point about the rape and run victims Dwight so thoughtlessly accused in the article. I guess if you want to dissect the article and dwell on one small point that's your prerogative. And yes, I have acted on a tip and I have "Raped and Ran". We all have I suppose. Still doesn't make it right... I'll tell you this. Those adventures meant little to me in comparison to the ones I found all by my self. After all, ones success can only be measured by how much real and personal effort went into it. You seem like a fair and diplomatic guy, surely you can see my side of this as well?


+1 TEX well said


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## chkrhntr (Sep 20, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Well, I guess you've made your point about the rape and run victims Dwight so thoughtlessly accused in the article. I guess if you want to dissect the article and dwell on one small point that's your prerogative. And yes, I have acted on a tip and I have "Raped and Ran". We all have I suppose. Still doesn't make it right... I'll tell you this. Those adventures meant little to me in comparison to the ones I found all by my self. After all, ones success can only be measured by how much real and personal effort went into it. You seem like a fair and diplomatic guy, surely you can see my side of this as well?


Absolutley I can can see your side. And I completely agree with the, greater effort= greater reward. I will even agree with the fact that I am probably being pretty nit picky with that example in the article. I completely agree with the main point of the article, If I ask somone to keep my secret spot secret, I expect them too and would be hurt if they didn't. (I don't ask or expect that often, because I think its a good way to get hurt)

From the info in the article, the hunters didn't do anything wrong. Everyone on here just jumped their shiz so I thought Id get a bit nit picky and stand up for them. :lol:

As diplomats, I think we are pretty close to eye to eye on the main issue here?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> (I don't ask or expect that often, because I think its a good way to get hurt)


Amen Brutha!



> As diplomats, I think we are pretty close to eye to eye on the main issue here?


I concur.  May be we can share a camp and some "sacred ground" together some day...


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

I can understand the perspective of the author of the article. I've been there...I've felt many of the same feelings. I've had friends betray my trust. I've shown friends a new spot and they've stopped inviting me to go with them. 

I've even felt sorrow for the places that are near to my heart by others that I felt were "raping" an area i.e. rolling boulders down draws to kick up deer. I didn't bring them there but I felt violated in much the same way. I turned them in, that's pretty dangerous if you happen to be in one of those draws, but I wanted them banished. Never to return. My spot was meant to be hunted quitely, on your hind end or even a tree stand if you were to ever see it the way it was meant to be seen.

I learned the hard lesson long ago that one should never to get attached to hunting a particular spot. I choose carefully those that I take to any of my spots but I choose never to ask anyone not to blab about the spot. I guess there is a part of me that feels like ruining a friendship over a hunting spot just isn't worth it and it isn't worth the risk by asking for secrecy. It seems any good spot eventually gets infiltrated any way and you have to eventually move on regardless. Nothing stays the same and holding on to a good spot is an exercise in futility. I now lean towards latching on to my adventurous side and find more pleasure by finding new spots on a regular basis. I guess at heart I'm more of a nomad than a homesteader. Finding new spots requires lots of blood, sweat and tears and can be very difficult. But the sense of accomplishment I get from it is very rewarding and no blabbing or broken promises could ever take that from me.


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