# One pissed commanche!!!!



## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

Ok, so I consider myself a law abiding citizen, try to always do the right thing. 

This year I went up on the elk hunt with my old man. He bought a rifle elk tag, and since I have gotten into archery, I have preferred to get a bull archery tag, which means I cannot hunt Rifle elk. Anyways, I go up hunting with him, hes got an elk tag, Ive got no elk tag. Since I am going to be in the mountains I prefer to take my .223 with me in case I see a coyote. Get stopped by DWR on Sunday and he trys to tell me i'm hunting without a license (Ive got a valid combination license). I told him specifically when he asked me what I was hunting I said coyotes. He gets pissed and goes off that only an idiot would hunt coyotes at 11,000 feet and that there are none up there (They sure kept me awake for the 3 nights prior at 11,000 feet).

Anyways he goes on to tell me how lucky I am hes not ticketing me, taking my gun, truck etc. I had no elk calls on me (only predator), I was nowhere near my elk hunting father on the mountain (we were in radio contact). Is there anything in the law that says I cant hunt coyotes during elk season in an elk area? I had my orange on, and really I just wanted to be out on the mountain with my dad.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Did you get his name to report his behavior?


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

No, nothing against it...in fact, even if you were hunting elk illegally, they would have to see you or have proof that you shot anything before they could do anything about it.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

Wish I had. Guy never even got out of his truck and he had on a heavy coat so I wasn't able to see a name plate. I was mainly wondering what part of the law I am misunderstanding?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Doesn't this fall into the "temporary game preserve" rules section which can indeed limit things?

Found it:



> C. TEMPORARY GAME PRESERVES
> R657-5-7
> (1)(a) A person who does not have a valid permit to hunt on a temporary game
> preserve may not carry a firearm or archery equipment on any temporary game
> ...


-DallanC


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

I believe where they have caliber restrictions you have to, at the very least, have a caliber deemed 'ethically' capable of taking big game while hunting at any time during big game season, particularly in winter. I.e. 6mm or .25 with a bullet of so much weight producing so much energy at 100 yards. I've heard of other things such as, in places where deer tags are typically over the counter, that you should have such a tag on you, or filled, while varmint hunting during deer season. 
However, while I don't think you are in the wrong here in Utah, I can't blame a guy on the look out for poachers with all of the things going on in the news as of late. I'm going to say that he was attempting to use fear tactics to try and keep you, who was assumed a poacher, from taking risks like that again, as an assumed poacher. At least you weren't carrying a .22 LR. That'd be sketchier. 
However, if something had occurred, I have no doubt you would be able to win any legal battles. But that isn't something I would want to have to deal with if I didn't have to anyways, so that was kind of a bummer.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

That's kind of the way I understand it too. This is the first jackass DWR officer I have ever encountered. Every other one has been respectful and I can usually carry on a conversation with them for quite a while. This guy started the conversation confrontational and when he asked to see my tag and I showed him my combo license it kind of blew up from there.

I would think I would look even more suspicious carrying around my .300 during elk season without an elk tag hunting coyotes.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

guilty until proven innocent these days.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

nothing wrong with hunting cottontails either...........with a .22


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## polarbear (Aug 1, 2011)

I would call the regional office enforcement department and very calmly tell them about the situation and try to clarify what law you were breaking. If the C.O. was in the wrong it will no doubt get back to him. If you were in the wrong in any way, at least it will be clarified for next time.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

You don't need his name. Just call the office tell them where you were and when it happened. They will know who it was. Not like there are a bunch of CO's and they constantly are letting dispatch know their location.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

I just don't understand why if I was breaking the law, he didn't ticket me. He basically accused me of hunting elk without a license. Maybe he was trying to get me to say I was hunting elk, but I told him from the beginning of the conversation that I was hunting coyotes. I dont get how they can make an entire mountain range a "temporary game preserve". This was on federal land, how can DWR turn it into a game preserve?


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I've ran into CO's with a very similar behavior. They use scare tactics to try to run you into a wall and find you lying. As long as your honest which it sounds like you were, he had nothing on you. There is no way he could ticket you and he knew it. He was just trying to see if you'd admit to something else.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> There is no way he could ticket you and he knew it. He was just trying to see if you'd admit to something else.


Did you not read the regulation I posted in post #5? How should we interpret that rule then?

-DallanC


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

I've got one better. Was up around Strawberry fishing from the bank with the wife years back.Our youngest son at the time was walking around with a BB gun made in 1931. which hardly had enough poop to send out a BB.. All of a sudden our boy comes down out the sage brush with a Warden in his truck right behind him.. Our son is crying, saying he's going to take me to jail.. He pulls up and says can't you read. No firearms around the Lake. Going to have to take the BB gun and give you a ticket..WHAT? this is not a fire arm it's a old wore out BB gun from 1930's that was my wifes fathers, you ain't taken it.. He gets out of the truck. I'am pissed. so I turn around. put my hands behind my back ASSUME the position. And tell him take me to Jail.. cause the Judge is going to look at you like your nuts!!Then he kind looks at me and says. it's your lucky day. No ticket.. Not going to take your fire arm. And no Jail time.. Most of the time these guys are good guys. doing a job were they are under staffed . under gunned. But A BB Gun? guy was a DINK!!


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Did you not read the regulation I posted in post #5? How should we interpret that rule then?
> 
> -DallanC


Well there's a pretty nice little loopehole in that reg as long as he is a concealed carry holder. If he is, it states he can have a weapon on him and long as he's not taking "protected wildlife" since he's after coyotes he should be good. Doesn't say anything about the firearm having to remain concealed.


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## phorisc (Feb 2, 2011)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Well there's a pretty nice little loopehole in that reg as long as he is a concealed carry holder. If he is, it states he can have a weapon on him and long as he's not taking "protected wildlife" since he's after coyotes he should be good. Doesn't say anything about the firearm having to remain concealed.


(d) a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon in accordance with Title 53,
Chapter 5, Part 7 of the Utah Code, provided the person is not utilizing *the
concealed firearm* to hunt or take protected wildlife.

just make sure your wearing a trench coat with that concealed rifle  and you got your concealed carry license


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## phorisc (Feb 2, 2011)

this kinda sux if you cant hunt coyotes during big game season...i was thinking about doing this(coyote hunting) with my brother since he is non-resident and wanted to go camping for a night out in the woods.
Ill probably call the DWR office to see what the exact rule is...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Since you don't need a license to hunt coyotes it is going to be a very gray area.

When you go back and read the rules it says "a person licensed to hunt"


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

DallanC said:


> Did you not read the regulation I posted in post #5? How should we interpret that rule then?
> 
> -DallanC


Can you enlighten me as to what a 'temporary game preserve' even is? If it is just a hunt unit during a hunt, then how could there be a regulation that forbids you to carry a weapon within its boundries when both US and State Constitutions have provisions for allowing you to carry?

Just wondering.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Based on what Dallanc posted, it looks like you were breaking the law....and should have been cited!

Also, FWIW, the DWR doesn't make the laws....the COs, though, have been entrusted to enforce them...


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

Maybe there was private/CWMU land nearby were the officer has a vested interest, you never know....


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

The temporary preserve thing only applies to LE hunts and CWMU hunts. We watched a CO kick some coyote hunters out of the Crawford mountains during our hunt there a few years back. (No tickets, he just explained they can't be hunting coyotes there during that hunt)


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

This was in a LE area, but not during a LE hunt and nowhere near a CWMU. This was during the spike hunt. How can DWR tell me I cannot carry a gun on federal land unless I am hunting a particular animal? 

This is one of the reasons I hope the feds tell Utah to shove it with the whole Utah land grab issues going on. The feds have some nasty tricks up their sleeves, but its nothing in comparison to the state if you ask me!!!


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

An LE area is only a temporary preserve during those times that the LE hunt is going on. And thank God because I sure wouldn't want a bunch of guys shooting at coyotes if I was trying to sneak in on a monster bull that I've waited 15 years to draw the tag for.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

> (2) *As used in this section, "temporary game preserve" means all bull elk,*
> buck pronghorn, moose, bison, bighorn sheep, Rocky Mountain goat and limited entry
> buck deer areas and Cooperative Wildlife Management units, excluding incorporated
> areas, cities, towns and municipalities.


Any bull elk unit.

-DallanC


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Any bull elk unit.
> 
> -DallanC


The entire state is a bull elk unit 2 months out of the year.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

DallanC said:


> (2) As used in this section, "temporary game preserve" means all bull elk,
> buck pronghorn, moose, bison, bighorn sheep, Rocky Mountain goat and limited entry
> buck deer areas and Cooperative Wildlife Management units, excluding incorporated
> areas, cities, towns and municipalities.


hmm...


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

woundedjew said:


> The entire state is a bull elk unit 2 months out of the year.


Not to mention the moose hunt...


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

So basically it says you cannot hunt coyotes, or anything else that you dont need a license for from about Aug 15ish-Oct 15ish? During the hunting seasons this covers the entire state of Utah with exception of small parts of the west desert.And even that is full of Limited entry deer areas.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

The moose hunt goes until the end of October, so yeah... Upland game only from Aug 15th through October 31st... guess the coyotes get a pass for a couple months.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

Bet if you ask any DWR officer (except the one I ran into:?) that question right now you would hear a different answer. :boom:


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

(801) 538-4700
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, Phone


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

You could call that number and talk to ten different people and get just as many different responses as their is on this forum. 

I think its basically a rule they can enforce if they feel like you deserve a ticket. Smart off and they give it to you. Suspect you did something but cant prove it they give it to you. Call up complaing about the officer and they give it to you. 

Its a bs rule if you ask me!


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

yep a social bs rule with no reasoning.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Since when has the UWN allowed the use of the word "pissed". I think I tried to use the word "piss" once, and it starred it out.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Since what's his name sold out to Canadians.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Based on the excerpt Dallen shared, I think you just told him you were hunting the wrong thing. Cottontail are upland game, as are grouse. And .223 is a legal weapon to shoot either. So next time you are not going to hunt something else with your Dad while he is hunting elk, they you should hunt upland game.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^ This, And lose the orange , you wont have a problem.;-)^^^^^^


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

fishreaper said:


> I believe where they have caliber restrictions you have to, at the very least, have a caliber deemed 'ethically' capable of taking big game while hunting at any time during big game season, particularly in winter. I.e. 6mm or .25 with a bullet of so much weight producing so much energy at 100 yards.


You are thinking of the handgun requirements, the only requirement on rifles is:


> Rifles and shotguns
> Utah Code § 23-20-3 and Utah Admin. Rule R657-5-8
> You may use a rifle or shotgun to take big Game, but your firearm and ammunition must meet the following requirements:
> • Your rifle must fire centerfire cartridges and expanding bullets.
> ...


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

I was thinking of Colorado. I think. I know it isn't in utah


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

fishreaper said:


> I was thinking of Colorado. I think. I know it isn't in utah


Could be, but you were close on the handgun regulation:


> Handguns
> Utah Code § 23-20-3 and Utah Admin. Rule R657-5-9
> You may use a handgun to take big game animals, but the handgun must be a minimum of .24 caliber and must fire a centerfire cartridge with an expanding bullet. If you're hunting deer or pronghorn, the handgun must develop at least 500 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. If you're hunting elk, moose, bison, bighorn sheep or mountain goat, the handgun must develop at least 500 foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

phorisc said:


> (d) a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon in accordance with Title 53,
> Chapter 5, Part 7 of the Utah Code, provided the person is not utilizing *the
> concealed firearm* to hunt or take protected wildlife.
> 
> just make sure your wearing a trench coat with that concealed rifle  and you got your concealed carry license


Don't even need the long trench coat. Your vehicle is an extension to that. You can have a loaded rifle in your truck, UTV, etc (As long as you own the vehicle or have permission to carry the loaded gun in it) there is nothing that can be done for having your weapon. A CO is going to likely try and tell you otherwise, but this is the law. The CCW permit has many perks to it. Not sure I would recommend driving around with a loaded rifle, but my handgun always has a round chambered. Nothing wrong with taking a drive in the mountains with a gun on you.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

goofy elk said:


> ^^^^ This, And lose the orange , you wont have a problem.;-)^^^^^^


I strongly suggest keeping the hunter orange on


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## Josh (Oct 27, 2008)

I always just shoot the CO an e-mail before I go out and ask them if there are other hunts going on and If I can hunt coyotes. They have always told me that there are other hunts but since he knows I'm out there to go ahead and take out as many dogs as I can. I am sure the COs have to deal with a lot of idiots trying to get away with anything they can.


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## phorisc (Feb 2, 2011)

swbuckmaster said:


> You could call that number and talk to ten different people and get just as many different responses as their is on this forum.
> 
> I think its basically a rule they can enforce if they feel like you deserve a ticket. Smart off and they give it to you. Suspect you did something but cant prove it they give it to you. Call up complaing about the officer and they give it to you.
> 
> Its a bs rule if you ask me!


true fact...I spoke to someone that said to call the specific DWR office where I'd go hunting but that by him it was fine if i was hunting coyotes. I'd just get the guys name who said it was okay so if something does happen where a CO wants to hassle ya...you throw out a name he may be familiar with.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Turn this story around for a minute -- what if the hunter had actually poached something and the DWR officer didn't do anything? Wouldn't we all be up in arms?!

We should be glad that the CO was out in the field questioning people. Consider his point of view: he sees two hunters, both in orange carrying rifles. They are in an elk area during an elk hunt. One of them has an elk license, the other does not. He questions the hunter without the license. Obviously, the CO accepted the hunters response and left them to their hunting.

Remind me why we're upset? Sticks and stones fellas. Sticks and stones. Get over it. You didn't get cited. I'm glad he questioned you.



Gawd we're all a bunch of hypocrites!


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

Im still wondering why you needed a rifle. If all you wanted to do was "be on the mountain with dad"


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

manysteps said:


> The moose hunt goes until the end of October, so yeah... Upland game only from Aug 15th through October 31st... guess the coyotes get a pass for a couple months.


You guys really need to work on your reading comprehinsion


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

no sense in being threatening or intimidating in the field though. It is unnecessary. I am glad he was questioned. More people should be. That said the CO should be well informed and informative. No need to abrasive. If a person is breaking the law they should be cited and leave the ego and attitude behind. They are public servants.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Skally said:


> Im still wondering why you needed a rifle. If all you wanted to do was "be on the mountain with dad"


And, IF Dad was your main concern, wouldn't any shots you made at a coyote just screw your dad's chances of killing an elk?

I would like to hear the other side of this story...


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Skally said:


> You guys really need to work on your reading comprehinsion


you should, in turn, practice your grammar.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I don't like the DWR laws disregarding the "shall not be infringed" part of the 2nd.

He shouldn't need a reason to carry.

JMHO


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Not saying that it is this in this case but some people have a problem with authority figures asking them questions and no matter what is asked they think that they are being picked on or singled out. 

In all the times that I have been stopped or questioned by the game and fish I have never had a problem, but then again I have been doing nothing that is even in the gray area of the law. My biggest problem with some of the officers that are out and about on opening weekends is that they are the office sitters and it is their time out in the field and they have no idea of what is going on out there. All they are told is to go out into the field and make their presence known. I have ran into a couple like this in close to 50 years of hunting and they have a hard time knowing just where they are much less the actual laws that they are out there to enforce.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Critter said:


> Not saying that it is this in this case but some people have a problem with authority figures asking them questions and no matter what is asked they think that they are being picked on or singled out.
> 
> In all the times that I have been stopped or questioned by the game and fish I have never had a problem, but then again I have been doing nothing that is even in the gray area of the law. My biggest problem with some of the officers that are out and about on opening weekends is that they are the office sitters and it is their time out in the field and they have no idea of what is going on out there. All they are told is to go out into the field and make their presence known. I have ran into a couple like this in close to 50 years of hunting and they have a hard time knowing just where they are much less the actual laws that they are out there to enforce.


could not agree more with this. I know a guy that is like this. Show him a guy that is in any type of enforcement from law, to wildlife, to inspectors or referees and he doesn't like them. He will more often than not escalate the matter.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Again, we are only getting one side of the story....it would be interesting to hear things from the COs perspective.

Reality says that there are COs out there who like to shove their weight around as well....personally, though, I like the idea that someone was out enforcing the law and checking hunters. I am thankful that there are people out there willing to do such a thankless job!


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## ARROWHNTR (Dec 11, 2008)

I got checked last year by a DNR officer that was normally stationed at deer creek state park. I was hunting moose during the Muzzeloder deer and elk hunt and was carrying a Bow and a rifle. Needless to say he was more then a little confused and it took me almost and hour to convince him I was doing nothing wrong. There are a lot of laws, some make more sense then others and some officers know them better then others. I have always know this "temporary Game Preserve" rule and have always followed it but it does seem kind of hard to enforce.


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## utah450 (Oct 22, 2007)

http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/bulletin/2011/20110601/34807.htm

Check out this link. I think that DallanC is providing old outdated information. They did away the bs that was a temporary game preserve several years ago. I know that I can now archery hunt with the coyote gun in the truck or even with me in the field. I don't know why you would want to shoot a rifle where you are archery hunting, but I would hate to see a coyote off the road and not kill it as good as the bounties are these days.

Anyway, my understanding is that they decided a rule to try and prevent you from breaking another rule, poaching in this case, was not the way to go.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Sweet, nice find and clarification. I knew the rule had existed and was able to dredge it up, but didn't find the update where it was rescinded. 


-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> Turn this story around for a minute -- what if the hunter had actually poached something and the DWR officer didn't do anything? Wouldn't we all be up in arms?!
> 
> We should be glad that the CO was out in the field questioning people. Consider his point of view: he sees two hunters, both in orange carrying rifles. They are in an elk area during an elk hunt. One of them has an elk license, the other does not. He questions the hunter without the license. Obviously, the CO accepted the hunters response and left them to their hunting.
> 
> Remind me why we're upset? Sticks and stones fellas. Sticks and stones. Get over it. You didn't get cited. I'm glad he questioned you.


I've given Heppy a bit of crap lately for always having his panties in a bunch, but as I skimmed the first 5 pages, this was my thought the entire time! PBH, you are spot on here. Why one earth would someone who is helping another hunter on their elk hunt and not licensed himself on said hunt carry a gun out on the mountain to hunt coyotes at the same time? If I was a law enforcement officer, this would be EXTREMELY suspicious behavior. And quite frankly, I wouldn't believe your story. CO's are not out there because everyone in the hills can be totally trusted.

I'm not accusing the OP of poaching. He may have legitimately just wanted to poke a yote. But I think he, and anyone else in that same situation, really ought to rethink that practice when helping someone else on their elk hunt. My personal opinion is that is a bad practice and was a poor decision. I too am glad the CO investigated to see if any illegality was taking place. You didn't get cited. Move along and call it a learning experience. Legal or not, I think that was a bad idea.


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## phorisc (Feb 2, 2011)

TS30 said:


> I've given Heppy a bit of crap lately for always having his panties in a bunch, but as I skimmed the first 5 pages, this was my thought the entire time! PBH, you are spot on here. Why one earth would someone who is helping another hunter on their elk hunt and not licensed himself on said hunt carry a gun out on the mountain to hunt coyotes at the same time? If I was a law enforcement officer, this would be EXTREMELY suspicious behavior. And quite frankly, I wouldn't believe your story. CO's are not out there because everyone in the hills can be totally trusted.
> 
> I'm not accusing the OP of poaching. He may have legitimately just wanted to poke a yote. But I think he, and anyone else in that same situation, really ought to rethink that practice when helping someone else on their elk hunt. My personal opinion is that is a bad practice and was a poor decision. I too am glad the CO investigated to see if any illegality was taking place. You didn't get cited. Move along and call it a learning experience. Legal or not, I think that was a bad idea.


If the stated documents above is true that no law was broken then I believe this CO should have been able to use his logic to see that rifle(.223)+coyote calls = coyote hunting.
Unless he has previously found that poachers carry coyote calls and then maybe he is fine pushing you a bit to see if you were a poacher.

Its not an easy job their doing...most poaching parties will be dishonest if approached by an officer.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well lets sum this up .....

A guy dress's up in hunter orange ...

Has a center fire rifle , on the mountain.

Is checked by a CO for a permit ....

The guy shows hin a combo liceness and say's he's hunting yotes,
middle of the elk hunt.............?????????....................

Wounders why the CO is pssed..

Good lord.:!:.


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## BugleB (Sep 24, 2008)

You got off very lucky and shouldn't be whining about it. A neighbor of mine, when he was an old man, got caught carrying a rifle in a scabbard on his horse during the elk hunt (temporary game preserve). He ended up in a fist fight with a game warden, got a very large fine and a little jail time, and never hunted again the rest of his life.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

phorisc said:


> If the stated documents above is true that no law was broken then I believe this CO should have been able to use his logic to see that rifle(.223)+coyote calls = coyote hunting.
> Unless he has previously found that poachers carry coyote calls and then maybe he is fine pushing you a bit to see if you were a poacher.


How would he know it's a .223 and he only has coyote calls on him if doesn't come and check it out? Again, it's not like this guy was arrested, thrown in the slammer, and left to rot. He got questioned on a mountain while involved in what I would personally consider as very suspicious circumstances, and was allowed to go along his merry way to come post about it on this forum. According to his account, they were entirely innocent. But still suspicious, nonetheless.



phorisc said:


> Its not an easy job their doing...*most poaching parties will be dishonest if approached by an officer.*


BINGO! Law enforcement can't just take what any suspicious party says at first glance and move along their way. I know it is shocking, but criminals sometimes tell lies. They might even try and conceal their crimes every once in a while as well.

Again, sounds like the activities were innocent enough. I still think it is a terrible idea for anyone to do what was being done and I'm glad the CO checked it out. Nobody should be upset about that.


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## phorisc (Feb 2, 2011)

TS30 said:


> How would he know it's a .223 and he only has coyote calls on him if doesn't come and check it out? Again, it's not like this guy was arrested, thrown in the slammer, and left to rot. He got questioned on a mountain while involved in what I would personally consider as very suspicious circumstances, and was allowed to go along his merry way to come post about it on this forum. According to his account, they were entirely innocent. But still suspicious, nonetheless.
> 
> BINGO! Law enforcement can't just take what any suspicious party says at first glance and move along their way. I know it is shocking, but criminals sometimes tell lies. They might even try and conceal their crimes every once in a while as well.
> 
> Again, sounds like the activities were innocent enough. I still think it is a terrible idea for anyone to do what was being done and I'm glad the CO checked it out. Nobody should be upset about that.


*Checking someone out is fine*, but making threats by saying he should cite him and take his gear for doing nothing wrong is not fine. It was already concluded that the rules no longer have that "game preserve" portion in them as posted above. I also called the DWR office and he said he didn't see anything wrong with if i go coyote hunting during hunting season but that I should call the office in that area just to be sure.

There are a lot of coyote hunters in Utah and I don't think its right that the DWR officer is making threats because their carrying a gun and coyote calls.

That said, yes we don't know both sides of the story...but the way it was proposed it appears as though the officer was in the wrong...and if the officer was still suspicious of the hunter he could easily have monitored that hunters activity with binoculars and simply follow the hunter who he thinks may be poaching.

Anyhow this topic is getting long and dragging...


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

wyoming2utah said:


> And, IF Dad was your main concern, wouldn't any shots you made at a coyote just screw your dad's chances of killing an elk?
> .


If you would have read the post I said I was nowhere near my dad. In fact we were 4 miles apart. He hikes about 1/2 mile to his point that he has sat on since the 1950's. No need for me to sit on a point for the majority of the day. Its still good to get into the mountains and camp with him for the weekend, and know that I am there in case he gets something.

I have no problems once so ever with any type of authority. I come from a family of several law enforcement officers, and have never had a problem with a CO in the past. I live by the thought you get treated the way you treat someone else.

This guy pulls up , nice as can be. He asks to see my license , I show him my combo license and tell him I am hunting coyotes, and he goes off on me. I am wanting to know what part of the law I am misunderstanding. I called the number you listed and spoke to an agent. He said as long as I am not hunting elk without an elk tag, There shouldn't have been an issue, but he was going to have some other guy give me a call. Have not heard back from him yet.


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## phorisc (Feb 2, 2011)

woundedjew said:


> If you would have read the post I said I was nowhere near my dad. In fact we were 4 miles apart. He hikes about 1/2 mile to his point that he has sat on since the 1950's. No need for me to sit on a point for the majority of the day. Its still good to get into the mountains and camp with him for the weekend, and know that I am there in case he gets something.
> 
> I have no problems once so ever with any type of authority. I come from a family of several law enforcement officers, and have never had a problem with a CO in the past. I live by the thought you get treated the way you treat someone else.
> 
> This guy pulls up , nice as can be. He asks to see my license , I show him my combo license and tell him I am hunting coyotes, and he goes off on me. I am wanting to know what part of the law I am misunderstanding. I called the number you listed and spoke to an agent. He said as long as I am not hunting elk without an elk tag, There shouldn't have been an issue, but he was going to have some other guy give me a call. Have not heard back from him yet.


maybe the CO was a coyote lover


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

TS30 said:


> How would he know it's a .223 and he only has coyote calls on him if doesn't come and check it out? Again, it's not like this guy was arrested, thrown in the slammer, and left to rot. He got questioned on a mountain while involved in what I would personally consider as very suspicious circumstances, and was allowed to go along his merry way to come post about it on this forum. According to his account, they were entirely innocent. But still suspicious, nonetheless.
> 
> BINGO! Law enforcement can't just take what any suspicious party says at first glance and move along their way. I know it is shocking, but criminals sometimes tell lies. They might even try and conceal their crimes every once in a while as well.
> 
> Again, sounds like the activities were innocent enough. I still think it is a terrible idea for anyone to do what was being done and I'm glad the CO checked it out. Nobody should be upset about that.


I can agree with that. I'm sure he was trying to catch me doing something that I wasn't, but from what I know, you don't go into a situation clueless, hot headed and accusing somebody of doing something they were not doing. I asked him what I was doing wrong, and he kept talking about how nobody hunts coyotes at 11,000 feet. He specifically told me I was breaking the law and that I was lucky I wasn't being ticketed and him take everything I own. He never would go into what law I was breaking, so I came here to see if you guys any idea of the law.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

woundedjew said:


> No need for me to sit on a point for the majority of the day. Its still good to get into the mountains and camp with him for the weekend, and know that I am there in case he gets something.


I guess we are just different then....If I were 4 miles away from my hunting partners, I wouldn't consider myself "there in case" they got something. But whatever....

...I would still like to hear the other side of the story.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

wyoming2utah said:


> I guess we are just different then....If I were 4 miles away from my hunting partners, I wouldn't consider myself "there in case" they got something. But whatever....
> 
> ...I would still like to hear the other side of the story.


You need new hunting partners if you need to hold their hands every step of the way........... If I can be to his location within 30 minutes (or even an hour), I would consider myself "there in case"


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## NHS (Sep 7, 2007)

Are you really a Comanche?


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

The CO sure acted like one.


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## FSHCHSR (Aug 30, 2008)

Its not about holding hands its about the company.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

We spend plenty of quality time together. No need to hold hands 24/7.

I feel sorry for a man that cant stand to spend a day (let alone a few hours) alone in the woods. Hunting is not always just about socializing. .


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## FSHCHSR (Aug 30, 2008)

> *I just wanted to be out on the mountain with my dad


your story just doesent add up. Like other have said I'd like to know the other side of the story


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## Czubas (Dec 25, 2011)

I guess the moral of this story is you have to have an elk permit to be in a National Forest during elk season for any reason.


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## FSHCHSR (Aug 30, 2008)

No I think the moral of the story is if your hiking around the mountain during elk hunting season with a center fire rifle and no elk tag a CO is going to be a little suspicious.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Czubas said:


> I guess the moral of this story is you have to have an elk permit to be in a National Forest during elk season for any reason.


You don't have to have a permit but if you are packing a rifle and are decked out in orange and 4 miles away from who you wanted to be with be prepared to answer some questions if you don't have a permit.


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## Czubas (Dec 25, 2011)

Ok, now I get it, the burden of proof falls on the citizen. I thought it worked differently.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

A smart move would have been to claim you were not hunting and that the rifle was for protection and was all you had. Argument over......protected by the CONSTITUTION! Of course the LE will be pissed because they want you to be breaking the law. Get over it and enjoy your day. Realize that if your job sucked as bad as theirs that you would be pissed all the time too. Cut them some slack, we need them and they work cheap.-------SS


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

FSHCHSR said:


> your story just doesent add up. Like other have said I'd like to know the other side of the story


How doesn't it add up? And why is it your business to add it up? The man said what happened, you calling him a liar? Maybe he had orange on because he's in Utah and some people shoot anything that moves.

Some CO's just have an attitude problem, superiority complex or little man syndrome. Yeah they do a thankless job, for crap pay, but they chose the job and can find a different field of work anytime they're ready.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I think he told both sides of the story.....he was doing something that appeared moderately suspicious and he got harassed for it. What else could there be? I just didn't get that "he's hiding something" feeling from this one. ---------SS


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Take the shotgun and hunt birds.


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## FSHCHSR (Aug 30, 2008)

> How doesn't it add up?


cause one minute


> *I just wanted to be out on the mountain with my dad


 the next he is 4 miles away hunting coyote during the elk hunt


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## riptheirlips (Jun 30, 2008)

This has been an interesting read, a person came on here and asked a simple question about could he carry/hunt coyotes during an elk hunt and it has turned into 9 pages of telling him:
a. What he could and shouldn't wear elk hunting
b. How far he can hunt from his dad
c. Needs a new hunting partner.
d. Can't hold peoples hands while hunting. (Guess handicap are SOL)
e. What he should tell a fish cop
f. When he should be hunting coyotes
g. etc., etc, etc.

We all hunt different, and do things different doesn't mean one way is wrong or right.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I killed this coyote on the open bull elk hunt this year, High Uintas, at an elevation of 10,900 ft. I see their tracks, I hear them howl, and I occasionally see one, and they sometimes hang around to get a bullet in their side. Your game warden doesn't get out of his truck enough.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Two sides to every story....we are only hearing one.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

I don't see why there needs to be 2 sides to the story. Is it legal or is it illegal to hunt coyotes during an elk hunt? The officer didn't question me and say "ok your good to go". He said "you are breaking the law and your lucky i'm not ticketing you and taking everything you own"

What dumb A wouldn't wear orange during a general season hunt in Utah? Just because i'm hunting coyotes and not elk doesn't mean I would like to be shot at. 

Fact is, shooting an elk was never my intentions. I have seen several coyotes in the area in the past, and for the 3 nights prior to this encounter, coyotes could be heard howling all night around us.

For all you guys saying "I thought you were there to be with your dad, why weren't you with him"? We just spend the 3 days prior to that hunting, apparently i'm a jack ass for taking off for a few hours to see if I could find a yote. We had sat on that point for 3 days prior together. We don't need to be together 24/7 so the boogie man doesn't get us. We heard coyotes up by camp, not down where he was hunting, why would it matter if i'm 1 mile, 4 miles or 20 miles from him? If he shot an animal, I was in the area to help him get it out. He doesnt need help cleaning it.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

So, why exactly is the "commanche" pissed?

I figure if I'm drinking iced tea from a whisky bottle while I'm driving down the freeway, a cop might have a question or two. He wouldn't be much of a cop otherwise.

The CO did you a favor. If it was up to me, I'd just as soon he wrote you up and let the judge decide.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

Like I've said before. I had no problems with him questioning me about it. But I do have a problem with an officer telling me I'm doing something illegal, when Im not. That's why I came here to get an understanding of what I'm missing in understanding the law. I have coyote hunted plenty in the past while a big game hunt was going on, but this is the first time I was checked.

Everything else aside, is it legal or is it illegal? Simple question that doesn't need a huge response.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

woundedjew said:


> *One pissed commanche!!!!*
> 
> Ok, so I consider myself a law abiding citizen, try to always do the right thing.
> 
> ...







woundedjew said:


> Is there anything in the law that says I cant hunt coyotes during elk season in an elk area? I had my orange on, and really I just wanted to be out on the mountain with my dad.





woundedjew said:


> Like I've said before. * I had no problems with him questioning me about it.* But I do have a problem with an officer telling me I'm doing something illegal, when Im not. _That's why I came here to get an understanding of what I'm missing in understanding the law._
> 
> Everything else aside, is it legal or is it illegal? Simple question that doesn't need a huge response.


hmmm...your original post, titled "One pissed comanche!!!" says otherwise. All the stuff highlighted in red says that you did have a problem with being questioned. If you only wanted to figure out the law, your post could have been limited to that highlighted in blue. You may have wanted to better understand the laws, but I think your real intentions were to complain about your experience getting questioned -- basically to try to roast a CO on a public forum. So, everything else aside, you got a huge response because you didn't only come here to ask a simple question. You came here to complain and vent your frustrations.

I still feel happy to know that a CO observed something suspicious and called you out for it. I'm also glad you did not get a ticket, and were allowed to continue on your way.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

Once again if you had any reading comprehension skills, you would see that I was not the pissed Comanche. The CO was. I was not in the least bit upset he questioned me, wanted to see a license etc. I was asking whether or not what I was doing was against the law. The CO was adamant that it was, I had never heard of this type of law so I was asking. The CO made it sound like he was doing me this huge favor by not ticketing me, but with his attitude I don't think he was in "favor mode" and basically didn't write me a ticket because what I was doing wasn't illegal. You guys saying "your messing it up for the elk hunters". How is hunting Coyotes messing things up any worse than the guys shooting grouse? Pretty sure a shotgun going off in a hillside is going to spook the animals just as much as my .223

Would you question if you were pulled over for suspicion on DUI, they find out you are not drunk, so they let you go telling you your lucky your not going to jail that night because you were suspected ?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

woundedjew said:


> Would you question if you were pulled over for suspicion on DUI, they find out you are not drunk, so they let you go telling you your lucky your not going to jail that night because you were suspected ?


If I were driving away from a bar drinking from a brown root beer bottle, then no. I wouldn't. I would actually expect the questioning, and "harassment".


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

PBH said:


> If I were driving away from a bar drinking from a brown root beer bottle, then no. I wouldn't. I would actually expect the questioning, and "harassment".


So you would also be ok with the officer telling you that coming out of a bar drinking a rootbeer from a bottle is illegal? Here's your sign!!!!

Like I said before several times...... I have no problem being checked. I actually like to see DWR out there doing their jobs. I am glad that they catch poachers, but don't treat everyone as a poacher. As a matter of fact a very small percentage of the hunting population have bad intentions.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I thought you were just here to find out what was legal, and what was not. 


i still think you are mad, and came here to vent. You're still venting. Get over it. I think you got your answer. Why drag this out? Grow some skin. Move on. Learn from your experience.....maybe the CO learned something too?


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

Lol, once again with your great reading skills..... Tell me what the final answer was.

It's obvious some of you guys read way too deep into the question. Basically address everything besides whether it's legal or illegal which was the only question I asked.

You wanna say something about my Chevy too?


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Welcome to the forum woundedjew! If you are looking for legal advice and clarity you have come to the wrong place! If you want to get harassed, pissed off, and otherwise told you are dumb by our regional forum experts then welcome aboard mate! I would just let this thread go--even if someone said you are correct what does it matter--are they a lawyer--you don't know. You didn't get a ticket so the warden figured he couldn't win in court and that sir is that.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks Aireborne, I agree with what you said. It seems like people with no clue have to comment on every post to get their rep up in their quest to conquer the internet world. In my eyes it was a simple question, legal or not legal for the people who may actually know, not the ones that assume. I got many answers both for and against, but not one was more convincing than the other.

The reason it matters is because I have coyote hunted quite a few times in the past during the elk and deer hunts. I intend on going out again this weekend on the deer hunt. If I see a coyote, can I legally shoot it while I am deer hunting?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

To answer your queston,

Now the "game preserve" law has been removed,
You ARE perfefectly legal to hunt coyotes during big game seasons if you wish too.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

woundedjew said:


> I intend on going out again this weekend on the deer hunt. If I see a coyote, can I legally shoot it while I am deer hunting?


Certainly! Hopefully you have a deer tag and get to enjoy hunting deer at the same time. If you don't have a deer tag, I might go out with the expectation that you may run into a CO that has some questions he'd like to ask you. He may even be in a bad mood. I would recommend that you take what you have learned from this past experience and apply it your future experiences. Good luck to you on your hunt. I wish you many bounties and some jerky too!


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

PBH said:


> Certainly! Hopefully you have a deer tag and get to enjoy hunting deer at the same time. If you don't have a deer tag, I might go out with the expectation that you may run into a CO that has some questions he'd like to ask you. He may even be in a bad mood. I would recommend that you take what you have learned from this past experience and apply it your future experiences. Good luck to you on your hunt. I wish you many bounties and some jerky too!


Actually I already got my deer and elk on the archery hunt. Would probably even post up pics if I knew it wouldn't turn into 10 pages criticizing my camo pattern and complaining that I have red vanes on my arrows instead of green.-O,-

Thanks Goofyelk, I couldn't find any laws out there that said otherwise. I put in a email request to DWR incase I don't hear back from the other guy that was going to call me. I always like to have stuff in writing!!!


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## FSHCHSR (Aug 30, 2008)

As to the answer of legality I dont know. last night I talk to a co and a county sheriff ( they were checking fishing licenses) one said it wasn't legal one said it was both said they would give you extra scrutiny.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

If you aren't doing anything illegal than you shouldn't have to put up with being harassed or threatened by a CO/LEO. So sick of people sitting here thinking as American citizens we just have to "put up" with LEO's treating us like we're all guilty and we have to go along with being treated as such and to just deal with it.... I treat all CO's and LEO's with respect but I expect the same treatment.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

I agree. I wasn't upset because I did not know the answer. If I was in the wrong, he had every right to be pissed at me and I would be more than grateful he didn't write me a ticket. But I feel that a respectable LEO would let you know what laws you are breaking and explain the legalities of it. Like said before, I have never had a bad experience with a CO. They have always been respectable and I can usually carry on a pretty long conversation with them. I was pretty sure what I was doing is not illegal, but if ya cant trust the person that enforces the law to know the law, who can you trust? All I asked for was an explanation and I couldn't even get that out of him. I did plenty of my own research on it prior to asking on here with exception to calling DWR. I thought maybe with there being thousands of members on a site like this, somebody might have some insight on it.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Go back and read my very first post.

You are technically breaking the law imho! The law is technically breaks the second ammendment. The problem with laws like this is when the co writes you a ticket you loose even if your legit because you have to hire an atourney and fight it in court. 

Some co's with thick buck in rut necks will just give you a ticket and let you fight it out. Some wont do a thing. 

No coyote is worth the bs you could go through if you get stopped again by this same co. 

If i were you and you feel you have to hunt coyotes id give the co on duty a call and tell him your intensions. Its not hard to find out whos on duty. I have the co's numbers on my phone in the areas I hunt just in case I run into a situation.


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## highcountryfever (Aug 24, 2009)

I want to chime in with my own story about a CO. Last Saturday, Oct. 11th my dad decided he would take my nephew out on the four wheeler to scout for deer for the upcoming deer hunt. While on the mountain they saw a CO and had a great conversation. Now for the "grey area" of the story. They were on the on face of Timp. On a four wheeler. they had orange on because of the spike elk hunt, and he had is rifle with him (300 WSM) and to top it off he didn't have an elk tag. Did the CO give him a hard time? NO. He was a great guy. Why you might ask? Because he wasn't doing anything wrong, and the CO knew it. His ATV was street legal so he could legally drive on the face of Timp. (For those that don't know, that particular road is open to street legal vehicles only.) He was wearing orange so he didn't get shot, and he had his rifle because he could. 

Point of my long story is that some CO's are nice and polite and some are not. Just like every other profession, there are good and bad. Nothing against the OP, but if you are doing everything right and you know it, then don't get on the internet and vent. I agree the CO should not have acted the way you claim he did, but take it up with him and possible his supervisors, not the internet. Ok, I am done.


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## highcountryfever (Aug 24, 2009)

and by the way the CO was up there because someone had illegally drove their UTV across the flats (no road) to pick up a cow elk they shot. Dad had pictures and exchanged info with the CO so he could send them info.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

A great thread. I should visit this site more often. So...from what I have gathered, Closed areas are no more when a hunt is going on, you are legal to hike, hunt and use the State and Federal ground in most any way you choose while a hunt is going on, however in your best interest you should wear hunter orange during a center fire hunt in that area. There are more points, but for me, I'm sure glad the CO in the Crawfords turned the coyote hunters away while we were out there trying to fill our LE muzzy deer tags after waiting 12 years to draw the tags.
I guess it falls back to the coyote/rabbit/grouse/anything hunter that wants to be out in the field to investigate a bit on what might be going on in the area they wish to be hunting to find out if there is an LE hunt going on. General hunts are just that and anyone can utilize the area for their outing, but I'd sure be one P.O.ed individual if I drew my tag after 10 plus years and had some guy pop at a coyote as I was sneaking in on the biggest big game animal I had ever seen to get my shot and his shot caused it to run off.
Good thread and I'm glad you didn't get cited. Thanks for the update on the definition of "game preserve" too. I didn't know that.
For those of you heading out on the 2014 anyweapon deer hunt, give them hell guys and gals! Let's see some pictures!


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

2 points- never is it legal to have a long gun fully loaded in a vehicle, even if you have CC permit. 2nd point- do any of you elk hunters think maybe you are screwing up coyote, grouse or bunny hunters hunts? Get over yourselves. After my archery hunt was over, I had a blast hunting for birds, and I kept AR15 in ranger in case of coyote opportunity.


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## Jeff84404 (Oct 9, 2014)

Richard- you are incorrect as anyone with a concealed firearms permit my carry a loaded long gun in their vehicle.


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

Good luck with that.


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## Jeff84404 (Oct 9, 2014)

I'm sorry you don't know or understand the actual laws involved... I'm also sorry that you'd post opinion instead of fact as this is the type of misinformation that gets people in trouble with the law or makes people think they are in violation when they actually are not. Here are the applicable laws for you to look up and reference.

*76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws*.
(1) This part and Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7, Concealed Weapon Act, do not apply to any of the following:
(a) a United States marshal;
(b) a federal official required to carry a firearm;
(c) a peace officer of this or any other jurisdiction;
(d) a law enforcement official as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
(e) a judge as defined and qualified under Section 53-5-711;
(f) a common carrier while engaged in the regular and ordinary transport of firearms as merchandise; or
(g) a nonresident traveling in or through the state, provided that any firearm is:
(i) unloaded; and
(ii) securely encased as defined in Section 76-10-501.
(2) *The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:*

*76-10-504*. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.
(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2), (3), and (4), a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, including an unloaded firearm on his or her person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in or on a place other than the person's residence, property, a vehicle in the person's lawful possession, or a vehicle, with the consent of the individual who is lawfully in possession of the vehicle, or business under the person's control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.

*76-10-505*. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
(i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
(ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
(b) on a public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
(3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
(4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

As a licensed CFP holder, we have the right to carry long guns and handguns, loaded or otherwise, in vehicles. Without a CFP people are limited to carrying only handguns in their vehicle.


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## Jeff84404 (Oct 9, 2014)

richardjb said:


> 2nd point- do any of you elk hunters think maybe you are screwing up coyote, grouse or bunny hunters hunts? Get over yourselves.


 Reference the second part of your comment, maybe you should have respect for people hunting big game during very short seasons while you hunt things that you can hunt just about any time.. just like people showing up for deer season and scouting/shooting/blowing up tannerite during elk season. Just makes sense to be polite to fellow hunters.


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

Good reference on the long gun. Don't know if I would push it with LEO or game cops. Game law says I can have CC weapon in vehicle while hunting if I I' m not using it to take game. I see safety as the ruling factor on loaded long guns in vehicles. How many times have we heard about someone pulling the weapon out and shooting his buddy on the passenger side? What is your take on that? On the hunting point, your right to hunt does not superceed my right to hunt. The entire small game hunts coincide with all the big game hunts for the most part. Should I just respect your hunt or all hunts and not go out in the field unless I check to see if no one else is hunting? Should houndsmen be stopped from hunting bear while I'm hunting elk? That happened to me this year, I got over it. Mostly because I also used houndsmen to take a bear and understand it just isn't me hunting. I agree with you on target shooting is rude during the hunts, but again, it is legal. Tannerrite is not legal on public land, turn those folks in. Again, thanks for the cc reference. 76-10-505 (3) was what I was worried about and the game law on page 36 of big game regs. Enjoy your hunts.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

So rifles are more dangerous than a pistol? The pistol in my pocket doesn't have a safety, my hunting rifle does... Not sure I am following this argument.


-DallanC


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## troutslayer (Apr 1, 2008)

So you guys are saying that certain people have more rights to public land over other people just because they have a certain tag? Cow elk hunts go well into January. Is it courtesy for people without cow elk tags to not use that land? Fact is a coyote hunter wouldn't be ruining anybody's hunt by being on the mountain. Have any of you guys seen a mountain during a general season hunt? It looks like a piece of meat with flo Orange maggots running around on it. I don't care how many years your been waiting on your tag. If you want to hunt on public land, you've gotta deal with the public. You want a mountain to yourself, hunt a CWMU or cough up the bucks to hunt private. 

Every year even though I don't have a LE elk tag, I enjoy spending time on the mountain with my elk calls and my camera. Get pictures of some pretty nice Bulls. Maybe I call in a LE hunter, maybe I dont. I'm not concerned with that. I have just as much right to use that public land and enjoy public animals as they do.


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## Jeff84404 (Oct 9, 2014)

Richard- No worries, I teach this stuff for a living and there are quite a few misconceptions about the law. LEO's know (I used to be one) and game cops do too, and you will run into issues if you are doing something else that raises the question of if you are night/road hunting. Then it becomes a DNR issue they can enforce. Ref the hunting issue, I see it as being polite. Just because something is legal doesn't make it 'right'. I would never do something that I knew would negatively effect someone else's hunt, if I were the intruding party into the situation. That's just me though. I know others are much less concerned as I experienced yesterday during the reenactment of WW3, to include explosions. Anyway, take care and best wishes.


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

Dallan, I haven't read any stories of pistols being a problem when pulled out of vehicles like long guns. Didn't we just have someone on this site talk about his incident this year. Sorry if you don't see long guns as being inherently more dangerous in this situation.


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

Jeff, explosions? Tell us more. Public land?


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## Jeff84404 (Oct 9, 2014)

Yeah, public land... a couple tannerite explosions, at least 500 rounds fired in numerous directions... it was a rough three hours or so. In another area (wasatch ridge at monti) a truck drove into the canyon we were set to hunt the next day, opening day, and fired a couple boxes of ammo at dusk then drove away smiling. Some people were speculating they were from DLL scaring the elk back towards the ranch as no one saw those guys again hunting in the area. Not sure of the DLL boogeyman story but it was frustrating to those of us camping in the area. Rude people...


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

richardjb said:


> Dallan, I haven't read any stories of pistols being a problem when pulled out of vehicles like long guns. Didn't we just have someone on this site talk about his incident this year. Sorry if you don't see long guns as being inherently more dangerous in this situation.


Sorry, I believe people can be unsafe with any gun. Its the same argument of banning AR15 type weapons because they are more "dangerous" than other weapons.

Guns are just tools, all of which need to be treated safely, and properly. Failure to do so is what causes accidents.

-DallanC


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## Jeff84404 (Oct 9, 2014)

Ignorance and carelessness are the two main reasons people have accidents with firearms. Long guns are actually easier to maintain muzzle awareness with though, just due to the ease in changing the muzzle direction of a handgun in comparison. People would be much safer with long guns in vehicles if they weren't driving around hunting out of their vehicles. :mrgreen:


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

*boom*



Jeff84404 said:


> Yeah, public land... a couple tannerite explosions, at least 500 rounds fired in numerous directions... it was a rough three hours or so. In another area (wasatch ridge at monti) a truck drove into the canyon we were set to hunt the next day, opening day, and fired a couple boxes of ammo at dusk then drove away smiling. Some people were speculating they were from DLL scaring the elk back towards the ranch as no one saw those guys again hunting in the area. Not sure of the DLL boogeyman story but it was frustrating to those of us camping in the area. Rude people...


Sounds pretty dangerous to me. That's the biggest reason I will not hunt deer and elk during rifle season in Utah. I'm allergic to lead. Been hunting archery for over 20 years now. #1 rule in my camp is no one target shoots with firearms in camp. Hate the noise and critters get scattered. Where I camp there are a couple small gravel pits down the road that are perfect for that. I wonder how many gun hunters go up before their season to target practice while the archery season is going on? Do they do that during their season where they hunt? Rude people...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Czubas said:


> Ok, now I get it, the burden of proof falls on the citizen. I thought it worked differently.


Sarcasm works a lot better when you actually understand the thing you're being sarcastic about. Burdens only come into play when charges are filed. According to the original post, they never were.


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## RichardClarke (Nov 5, 2011)

TS30, uh burden of proof only applies when charges are filed? Really? Um how about an IRS audit? There is a little thing called burden of proof there...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Sorry, I was referring to the subject at hand, IE criminal activity, not IRS audits. 

Disclaimer: burden of proof also attached any time your wife says it does. Is that better? Back to arguing about crap that isn't relevant and doesn't matter...


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

The temp preserve is a BS thing. I don't give two craps about it. It is totally idiotic!! If I ever get a ticket for that crap I'll be happy to go to war over it!!


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

Well I never heard back from the guy on the phone, but got a response to the email today that I thought was interesting. They didn't reference what law and what is considered a "deer hunting area" and "weapon capable of killing a big game animal". 

This was my question and the answer I got.


Hi , I have a question.

Is it legal to coyote hunt while there is a general season deer or elk hunt going on? I ask this question because I was coyote hunting last weekend while I was up camping with other family members that were elk hunting. I was approached by a DWR officer and was told I cannot be in the field with a gun, without a elk tag while a elk hunt was going on. Is this true? I had orange on, had a small caliber rifle with me and was told that I could be sited for hunting without a license. Can you please provide me with any information regarding this as I am going deer hunting this weekend. Is it legal to hunt coyotes while a general season big game hunt is going on? I know a lot of upland game hunts are going on, and there are hunters hunting grouse during these hunts. 

I always try to follow the law but I am unable to find any information regarding this. I was told by a DWR officer it is not legal, but he would not tell me what laws I was breaking. Any advice would be great.

Thanks
Andrew




This was the response

Andrew,

If a person is in a deer hunting area with a weapon that can harvest big game during a hunt the evidence suggests that this individual is hunting without a license also known as poaching. For more information call 801-538-4700


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

Well, a .22 is capable of harvesting a deer or an elk with good shot placement. The made it sound like it is basically up to the dwr officer to decide.

I would also go to war if I were to get a ticket if I was in your situation.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

Also, it seems a court would throw that out fairly quickly as it is entirely based on circumstantial evidence. Barring a specific law stating it is illegal to carry a firearm during hunting season without a license (which I don't think would be constitutional) I don't know if you could enforce it.


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