# Drama with big bucks and bulls being killed



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I can't believe how much drama comes out when ever a really big buck or bull is killed.
Some of it is justified and a lot of it is not.
One thing is for sure, when there's big money involved, people will do what ever it takes to get the job done.
And people will feel cheated one way or another when things don't go their way.


----------



## Lobowatcher (Nov 25, 2014)

ridgetop said:


> I can't believe how much drama comes out when ever a really big buck or bull is killed.
> Some of it is justified and a lot of it is not.
> One thing is for sure, when there's big money involved, people will do what ever it takes to get the job done.
> And people will feel cheated one way or another when things don't go their way.


Don't single out just hunting in your scenario, that's the way it is in all things involving big money, regardless the venue.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I watched a Clint Eastwood movie the other day, "The Unforgiven".
It's about a prostitute that gets her face cut up by a couple of cowboys. 
Well, the local law enforcement won't do anything about what happened.
So the girls other prostitute friends pitch in and offer a $1,000 reward for the death of those two cowboys.
The local law enforcement is very mad when hearing about this happening.
Not that they went behind his back and took matters in their own hands but because he knew that a reward like that would bring out a lot of shady bounty hunters to their town looking to cash in.

I feel the same way about how these big outfitters are offering $10,000+
for finder fees to locate an animal for these big money tag holders.
We are starting to see many felons and convicted poachers showing up in the group photos with these big money clients and that really bothers me.
When you start offering finders fees to locate the biggest animals in the state, you can get some real shady people crawling out from under many rocks to collect on these rewards and they will do what ever it takes to get the job done.


----------



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

ridgetop said:


> I watched a Clint Eastwood movie the other day, "The Unforgiven".
> It's about a prostitute that gets her face cut up by a couple of cowboys.
> Well, the local law enforcement won't do anything about what happened.
> So the girls other prostitute friends pitch in and offer a $1,000 reward for the death of those two cowboys.
> ...


There isn't any rule saying that felons and poachers cannot assist or spot game for other legal hunters. As long as they are not in possession of prohibited weapons then they are free to use the land just like anyone else.

Do we get so bothered by this practice because we think it wrong or because we cannot afford to do it ourselves? Life is so much better when we stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and just start enjoying it.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

"Commerce, Conservaton & the Democracy of Hunting".... a great read. Get a hold of it!

A couple quotes: "At one moment, hunting has operated in American culture as a rite of deomocracy and at the next [moment], as a rite of aristocracy. That pendulum swing continues today." And as this pendulum swings toward aristocracy, it knocks off more hunters and potential hunters than PETA and like groups could ever have hoped to do."

"The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide of for the feathers or for the meat or to sell antlers, and other trophies;....and the rich who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions--these are the men who are the real enemies of game."

"The peril in some of the contemporary forms of commercial hunting is not in that they seek compensation for landowner needs or for services provided. The peril is its own belief that it must exclude every rank and file hunter or aspiring hunter unable or unwilling to pay the toll."

"I should much regret to see grow up in this country a system of large private game preserves kept for the enjoyment of the very rich. One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness is its rugged and stalwart democracy. There every man stands for what he actually is and can show himself to be."


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Just because something is legal doesn't make it a best practice. I also don't like the extreme commercialization of our sport. Not that I would ever want to stop it, but I still don't like it. A friend recently had a pretty good tag in Nevada. There was a crew in the Hotel he stayed that consisted of one guy with a tag and over a dozen "helpers"..... certainly not illegal but very telling as to the culture of hunting. What was worse is that his "entourage" split up and applied pressure to all the best areas of the zone. ie guys who are not hunting and don't have a tag pressuring deer and competing with other hunters for space, glassing spots, etc. I personally think that this is pathetic. I personally would be embarassed to have my picture taken with a crew of 12 guys and a dead deer. When I see these kinds of pics, I lose all respect and laugh off any accomplishment associated with "taking" the animal. ---------SS


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Last I checked those aristocrats back east with all their private land and paid hunts harvest nearly 10 million deer per yr. 

Our wildlife management policy out west is driving down supply and increasing demand. 

California being the leader in unproductive wildlife for sportsman. But the cougar population is real strong there.  Virginia on the other hand a guy can harvest several deer per yr OTC for less than $100. But the cougar is non existent there.


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> Just because something is legal doesn't make it a best practice. I also don't like the extreme commercialization of our sport. Not that I would ever want to stop it, but I still don't like it. A friend recently had a pretty good tag in Nevada. There was a crew in the Hotel he stayed that consisted of one guy with a tag and over a dozen "helpers"..... certainly not illegal but very telling as to the culture of hunting. What was worse is that his "entourage" split up and applied pressure to all the best areas of the zone. ie guys who are not hunting and don't have a tag pressuring deer and competing with other hunters for space, glassing spots, etc. I personally think that this is pathetic. I personally would be embarassed to have my picture taken with a crew of 12 guys and a dead deer. When I see these kinds of pics, I lose all respect and laugh off any accomplishment associated with "taking" the animal. ---------SS


Agree 1000%
I have zero respect for mossback or any of his clients or guides. Sit on an animal long enough you can probably hand feed it and cut its throat. I also have zero respect for Denny austead. Lazy rich piece of shyt.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Iron, are you trying to give Lonetree and Goofy high blood pressure? You know you can't talk about killing the poor little cougars and coyotes. C'mon man!:grin:------SS


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Virginia on the other hand a guy can harvest several deer per yr OTC for less than $100. But the cougar is non existent there.


Does your $100 cover just the cost of the tag, or does it also include landowner fees? What about the hunting license? Of course, in Virginia, they also have land access fees...in other words, you also have to pay to hunt PUBLIC WMAs. Also, National Forrest permits, state use permits, archery permits, and even muzzleloader permits may also be required on top of the hunting license and deer license required in Virginia. Also, if you want to harvest bonus deer (more than 1) you would need to buy bonus permits. Sorry, IB but your numbers ain't adding up!

I love it...check this video out on Youtube. It is an advertisement for hunting private land in Virginia....it would only cost $60 a day to hunt during the week and only $75 a day to hunt on the weekend compared to the thousands other private landowners charge.






You can take Virginia IB.....that $100 dollar hunting you were talking about just added up to over $1000 to get away from the "crowds" to hunt the same number of days I hunted this year in Utah for far less (and, by the way, I never did see another hunter off the road during the rifle hunt!).

Also, just an FYI, IB....Virginia may not have cougars (may not)...but it definitely does have lots of coyotes, which, by the way, are predators of deer. And, according to the Virginia game and fish, "Unlike most wildlife populations, the reproductive potential of coyotes is such that harvesting coyotes for recreation or fur pelts or other economic incentive will not generally have any impact on limiting or even reducing the abundance of the 
coyote population." And, "Under certain conditions coyote predation has been shown to limit the abundance of big game populations. However, under normal conditions - that is when there is an abundance of game habitat available and the game population has not been decimated by disease or by another catastrophic mortality factor - predation will rarely limit the population abundance of a game species. In fact, it is more often the case that overall prey abundance and diversity will dictate the total number of 
coyotes that can thrive in a given area."

Funny....those biologists back east say the same things as the guys out west. So, what management policies specifically are so different?


----------



## Charina (Aug 16, 2011)

KineKilla said:


> There isn't any rule saying that felons and poachers cannot assist or spot game for other legal hunters. As long as they are not in possession of prohibited weapons then they are free to use the land just like anyone else.


I believe I understand your sentiment. I am ambivalent about the matter, and the above is one side of my ambivalence.

To argue the other side, not to be disagreeable, but to flesh out the complexities of the matter . . . Generally our society has a disdain for either direct or tangential profiting from illegal activities. It goes so far as prohibiting some convicted criminals from writing a book about their experience and profiting thereby.

While someone convicted of a wildlife crime is free to use the land as long as they are not in possession of prohibited weapons, are they really free to profit from the very resource they were convicted of stealing from society? Is it really ok to engage in a related activity for profit? That's the part that prevents me from fully adopting that they are free to use the land and wildlife _just like anyone else_.

Furthermore . . . 
Our wildlife laws are based in large part on a prohibition against commercialization of wildlife. Early commercialization was, at least in part, the crisis that drove the formation of the doctrine that wildlife is owned by the citizens, and managed in trust by the states (or feds in case of interstate wildlife species). It seems to me that somewhere there must be a line demarking when someone is paying for a 'service', which is not contingent on an animal, and when someone is paying for a 'bounty' on a specific animal, which to me, is direct commercialization of that animal. Perhaps that line is not legally crossed if $10,000 is offered as a finder fee, but to me, that feels like commercialization of wildlife as a commodity, not the offering of services.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> Agree 1000%
> I have zero respect for mossback or any of his clients or guides. Sit on an animal long enough you can probably hand feed it and cut its throat. I also have zero respect for Denny austead. Lazy rich piece of shyt.


Wow..

I had a large response but honestly if you posted something with such a small picture in mind, it isn't worth explaining the commerce of the US and how many human beings get bent over because of it, and you complain about these guys making a living.

Just curious, are you going to donate the $300,000 that Denny did to Antelope for one deer? In my eyes, we need people like that. The island functions, in a big way thanks to those people.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

And not sure where someone heard of this $10,000 bounty for big game animals, but I have yet to hear of an outfitter writing a check like that to locate an animal.

And to add to my last post, any good outfitter or guide will work their a** off for you and destroy their vehicles and equipment. Most do it for the love of nature, very very few are rich because of it. Not sure why we get the pitch forks out about this subject all the time. When I read the OP I didnt even think outfitter... I thought about the cemetery buck, or the people sitting bashing the harvests on the board at sportsmans because they didn't do it...


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Wow..
> 
> I had a large response but honestly if you posted something with such a small picture in mind, it isn't worth explaining the commerce of the US and how many human beings get bent over because of it, and you complain about these guys making a living.
> 
> Just curious, are you going to donate the $300,000 that Denny did to Antelope for one deer? In my eyes, we need people like that. The island functions, in a big way thanks to those people.


Of course not. Who the hell wants to dump money into a state park that you can't do anything with? Don't give me the bs that you can hike or go for long strolls on the beach. The place stinks like ass, only 2 people can hunt on it, and it isn't anything to be awestruck by for beauty. Really, what good is antelope island doing anybody besides mossass and a few buffalo they could get from Yellowstone? Worthless...


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> Of course not. Who the hell wants to dump money into a state park that you can't do anything with? Don't give me the bs that you can hike or go for long strolls on the beach. The place stinks like ass, only 2 people can hunt on it, and it isn't anything to be awestruck by for beauty. Really, what good is antelope island doing anybody besides mossass and a few buffalo they could get from Yellowstone? Worthless...


Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed...


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> And to add to my last post, any good outfitter or guide will work their a** off for you and destroy their vehicles and equipment. Most do it for the love of nature, very very few are rich because of it.


This made me laugh, I would bet most do it for something green and it ain't the beautiful grass growing in the hills!!!! I have no beef with guides but guides sure as heck better never complain about Obama, democrats, socialism, or welfare because they are making their money from a public resource!!!!!!


----------



## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

For some it's not about right or wrong but the lesser of two evils, if they are bending and in some cases breaking the law but are putting money back into our economy does it make it "right" or okay to do it? Does it seem that the DNR/DWR looks the other way when dollar signs are staring them in the face in these matters?


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

utahgolf said:


> This made me laugh, I would bet most do it for something green and it ain't the beautiful grass growing in the hills!!!! I have no beef with guides but guides sure as heck better never complain about Obama, democrats, socialism, or welfare because they are making their money from a public resource!!!!!!


Who isn't making money from 'public' resources....a basic understanding of economics shows that all flow in an economy starts at the resource market and moves from there...


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Who isn't making money from 'public' resources....a basic understanding of economics shows that all flow in an economy starts at the resource market and moves from there...


I misused my words, not money "from" a public resource but rather making money "off" of a public resource provided by the average joe. And to then top it off, some of these guides then want to go ahead and have the average joe keep footing the bill for the public good but then want to limit opportunity so these animals will grow bigger and they can make more for bigger animals. I'm not saying that's what you want berry blaster but there are some outfitters who push for that and it is the biggest hypocrisy there is. There is a reason guiding on Public lands is an issue and some states choose a different path when it comes to that.


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed...


I sleep standing up.


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

utahgolf said:


> I misused my words, not money "from" a public resource but rather making money "off" of a public resource provided by the average joe. And to then top it off, some of these guides then want to go ahead and have the average joe keep footing the bill for the public good but then want to limit opportunity so these animals will grow bigger and they can make more for bigger animals. I'm not saying that's what you want berry blaster but there are some outfitters who push for that and it is the biggest hypocrisy there is. There is a reason guiding on Public lands is an issue and some states choose a different path when it comes to that.


Again dude same statement of you wanna play this game, then quit driving your car, it's fueled by 'public' resources. Your cell phone operates off of stored electricity from 'public' resources, your office, your home, they all are from 'public' resources and how many of those things do you make money 'off' or 'from'....the tree you want to bark up is not this one but management. When you fault a guy or business for being successful in America its a slippery slope...

And believe me when I say I'm all for shifting The management directives of the state to more opportunity minded ideals...think of it this way, I make money as a guide because people value my knowledge and resources, ie lodge and equipment. Right now 'people' is limited to roughly 700 permits or so...if we changed the Wasatch to a 5 point or better OTC scenario (much more sustainable management plan) 'people' or potential customer base grows ten fold.

Basic math says that 100 guys with $100 dollars (average joe) have a ton more money than 1 guy with $1000 (rich dude), so thinking of it that way what makes more sense from a business stand point?

Gripe about management practices and direction not Americans trying to make a living...JMHO anyway


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Basic math says that 100 guys with $100 dollars (average joe) have a ton more money than 1 guy with $1000 (rich dude), so thinking of it that way what makes more sense from a business stand point?
> 
> Gripe about management practices and direction not Americans trying to make a living...JMHO anyway


Ahhh...I ain't buying what you are selling here berry. IF what you are saying were true, then why don't we see a lot more deer guides running around our general units? And, why then, don't guides focus on running their businesses through general hunts like the spike hunt? Because, from a business standpoint as you put it, wouldn't that make more sense?

Hmmm..maybe it is because the guy with $100 dollars isn't willing to fork out his dough for guiding "services"....or, is it because in order to make money you would have to have 100 clients in a short window (9days for rifle hunters) and that doesn't make "business sense"?


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Again dude same statement of you wanna play this game, then quit driving your car, it's fueled by 'public' resources. Your cell phone operates off of stored electricity from 'public' resources, your office, your home, they all are from 'public' resources and how many of those things do you make money 'off' or 'from'....the tree you want to bark up is not this one but management. When you fault a guy or business for being successful in America its a slippery slope...


ARen't you comparing apples to oranges here? I mean, afterall, don't I pay for my car and my car's fuel? Don't I pay for my cell phone and its use? Aren't my home, my office, and all those public resources they are made from paid for first?

What is it you are paying for to guide or making money off of? Are you paying for the anima first? Do you pay rent to use the land? Is your office space (public land) rented?


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> Ahhh...I ain't buying what you are selling here berry. IF what you are saying were true, then why don't we see a lot more deer guides running around our general units? And, why then, don't guides focus on running their businesses through general hunts like the spike hunt? Because, from a business standpoint as you put it, wouldn't that make more sense?
> 
> Hmmm..maybe it is because the guy with $100 dollars isn't willing to fork out his dough for guiding "services"....


Are outfitters successful in Colorado? Hunting 5 point or better Bulls and good bucks?? Right now we guide 10-15 guys a year out of 700 so about 2-4% of hunters...so on that logic no one wants to fork out the money 'big money guys' included. Generally we do 1-3 cons tag holders...so where's the money coming from?? 75-90% of my guided hunters are draw guys who you would consider 'average joe' incomes....

Wyo take it or leave it, but I'm a straight shooter in this. Personally I'm disgusted with the ELK management of my home unit and home state for the most part.

I will say this to lend credence to your point, there must be some form of quality for this to work. Utah has long been home to the Great struggle for the trophy two point deer/spike elk. No one will pay for low quality hunts like that. Heck I struggled to even want to buy a deer tag for a while there, but with a return in modest quality, I've been getting more and more calls about guiding General season deer tags. We don't and won't do that, but it's interesting from a business standpoint to see


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Utah has long been home to the Great struggle for the trophy two point deer/spike elk. No one will pay for low quality hunts like that.


That's just it....a lot of hunters would pay for hunts like that. They just won't pay guiding services for them.

Look, I don't care if a guy makes a career off helping people be successful as fishermen and hunters. I actually think there is a place for guides and guiding services. Heck, I have even hunted the same areas and same deer as Moss and his clients in the past and had no issue with Doyle or his employees. What I don't like, though, is the trend that I am seeing...this trend that puts more and more emphasis on the size of antlers and how those antlers equate to big money. I think it is a very dangerous trend and a battle that we are beginning to lose. I also believe that the push for "trophy" deer and elk is beginning to push the average joe hunter aside by pricing them out or limiting their opportunity.


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> ARen't you comparing apples to oranges here? I mean, afterall, don't I pay for my car and my car's fuel? Don't I pay for my cell phone and its use? Aren't my home, my office, and all those public resources they are made from paid for first?
> 
> What is it you are paying for to guide or making money off of? Are you paying for the anima first? Do you pay rent to use the land? Is your office space (public land) rented?


This!


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> That's just it....a lot of hunters would pay for hunts like that. They just won't pay guiding services for them.
> 
> Look, I don't care if a guy makes a career off helping people be successful as fishermen and hunters. I actually think there is a place for guides and guiding services. Heck, I have even hunted the same areas and same deer as Moss and his clients in the past and had no issue with Doyle or his employees. What I don't like, though, is the trend that I am seeing...this trend that puts more and more emphasis on the size of antlers and how those antlers equate to big money. I think it is a very dangerous trend and a battle that we are beginning to lose. I also believe that the push for "trophy" deer and elk is beginning to push the average joe hunter aside by pricing them out or limiting their opportunity.


It sounds like we are saying the same thing...I want more hunters, you want more hunters. Our reasons are different is all!

Whilst there are a lot of hunters that will pay for a poor experience, there are also a lot that won't. I hear it, when guys struggle in success, they won't go back. so low quality poor success hunts aren't a long term sustainable option. This is especially true with youth hunters. If a youth hunter doesn't find success in the first couple years they quit. Let that statement sink in, you and I know it's true. There are a few that love the 'struggle' I know but that's not the majority. Most new hunters need high success options like antler less cow elk hunts to get and keep them excited.

So somewhere between 12/100 buck to doe ratio's, and $300,000 dollar island shoots is a happy medium. A place where biology and economics meet for tea and crumpets. I think Colorado, and Wyoming are pretty close to that place while Utah and Arizona are headed in the opposite direction....


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> ARen't you comparing apples to oranges here? I mean, afterall, don't I pay for my car and my car's fuel? Don't I pay for my cell phone and its use? Aren't my home, my office, and all those public resources they are made from paid for first?
> 
> What is it you are paying for to guide or making money off of? Are you paying for the anima first? Do you pay rent to use the land? Is your office space (public land) rented?


Yes in fact we do, we pay in licensing and federal permit fees, in insurance. We put into the system and are afforded business rights because of it...

The idea that a legally operating outfitter gets something for nothing or is 'stealing' from the public just shows how ignorant you are to the system....

I'm pretty moderate in temperament but this 'all guides are evil' bandwagon mentality is shallow and stupid. You haven't a clue what it takes to operate a business LEGALLY on state and federal land. There is more red tape and regulation than a guy can shake a stick at....

Again this comes back to the idea that it's not the business you should be against, it's the management directive. The businesses are products of the management, not the other way around.


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

One last point, one cannot lump all outfitters in with Mossback. Mossback Guides and Outfitters are unique from an economic and business standpoint. They are not selling hunts anymore, they are a brand.

Doyle is the epitome of commercialization and from only a business standpoint has been brilliant in his operation. But, he has bridged the gap from guide/outfitter to brand and in that is not at all what the average outfitter or guide is anymore.

Wyo, I understand what you mean when you say the focus on size has crossed a precipice and is in unfriendly territory now. The opposite of that is to be a 'meat' hunter. One who's sole reason for being in the field is to supply his/herself with sustenance and we as a group are not that either. So where's the happy medium?

Mossback is one extreme, fellas like me land somewhere in the middle and meat hunters are the other....who's right and who's wrong???


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

wyoming2utah said:


> Does your $100 cover just the cost of the tag, or does it also include landowner fees? What about the hunting license? Of course, in Virginia, they also have land access fees...in other words, you also have to pay to hunt PUBLIC WMAs. Also, National Forrest permits, state use permits, archery permits, and even muzzleloader permits may also be required on top of the hunting license and deer license required in Virginia. Also, if you want to harvest bonus deer (more than 1) you would need to buy bonus permits. Sorry, IB but your numbers ain't adding up!
> 
> I love it...check this video out on Youtube. It is an advertisement for hunting private land in Virginia....it would only cost $60 a day to hunt during the week and only $75 a day to hunt on the weekend compared to the thousands other private landowners charge.
> 
> ...


I'd say your numbers don't add up. 1000 bucks to harvest a deer? I'm sorry but that's just not the case. Many landowners back east welcome hunters to harvest deer from their place free of charge. Trophy hunting is another story.

I guess you think this poor medical student is full of crap. http://utahwildlife.net/forum/41-hunting-outside-utah/100601-virginia-whitetail.html

Yes our policy. Manage for 1 cougar for every 150 deer in Virginia like we have in Utah and it would take some real faith to believe good habitat will save the hunters there from cutting back on their harvest. Manage for 10/100 b/d ratio (most buck being yearling) and see how productive the herd becomes.

Coyote? Sure they will make a kill. But I have yet to hear about or read a study that says a coyote will kill a deer per week on average. So if you think the coyote is filling the cougars niche in Virginia and other eastern states your up in the night.

Out west wildlife managers want to reintroduce wolf. Cougar and wolf were native to eastern states, But there is no push to reintroduce them there. So yes our policy decreases supply and increases demand out west.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

utahgolf said:


> This made me laugh, I would bet most do it for something green and it ain't the beautiful grass growing in the hills!!!! I have no beef with guides but guides sure as heck better never complain about Obama, democrats, socialism, or welfare because they are making their money from a public resource!!!!!!


You would bet.. fact of the matter is, I know a ton of these guys first hand. Since you "betting" leads me to believe you are assuming, so there is no need to attempt a discussion with you.

You just compared a guide, someone who works, to welfare, someone who doesn't. That makes me laugh.


----------



## huntn30inchers (Apr 21, 2014)

There is a huge difference between hiring a guide and handing out blank checks for the biggest animal anyone willing to sellout can find. Just like there is a huge difference between killing animals and hunting them. I feel the same way about it as I do guys that poach, kill high fence animals and take real long shots. They have ZERO respect for the animals or the tradition, they want to kill things and they want to be seen doing it and they somehow convince themselves that they did a good job.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey, hey, hey......what's wrong with taking a rest on a high fence to lob a long shot at a poacher? -------SS


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> You would bet.. fact of the matter is, I know a ton of these guys first hand. Since you "betting" leads me to believe you are assuming, so there is no need to attempt a discussion with you.
> 
> You just compared a guide, someone who works, to welfare, someone who doesn't. That makes me laugh.


there are people who work who receive tax payer subsidized assistance. But off the welfare part.. So if I hire a guide i just ask for the "love of nature" discount right?


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

As long as your fine with killing animals that can't escape berry, keep truckin'. Antelope island is a canned hunt in every aspect of the meaning. Mossass drives his truck out there or any number of his "guides" and find a buck. Knowing full well that buck can't get away they decide how to kill it. Notice I said kill. There is no "hunt" out there. Just like the bison. You drive up and blam! Its over and your back in time for pancakes and sausage. Sleep well8)


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I love the AI hunt because it removes a BUNCH of people from the real hunting draw pools. Heck I wish there were a few more hunts like this offered. Nobody would bother with the Books or Vernon anymore........that would be just peachy with me. I would be ok if they drew a bow tag to hunt the SLC cemetery if it remove another thousand or so people from the draw pools.------SS


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> As long as your fine with killing animals that can't escape berry, keep truckin'. Antelope island is a canned hunt in every aspect of the meaning. Mossass drives his truck out there or any number of his "guides" and find a buck. Knowing full well that buck can't get away they decide how to kill it. Notice I said kill. There is no "hunt" out there. Just like the bison. You drive up and blam! Its over and your back in time for pancakes and sausage. Sleep well8)


Lunker read what I wrote....obviously you didn't.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

utahgolf said:


> there are people who work who receive tax payer subsidized assistance. But off the welfare part.. So if I hire a guide i just ask for the "love of nature" discount right?


You think the guide that is driving a '99 chevy, his all the time vehicle, is getting your 5-10k?? Thats his boss kiddo.

Don't start with the small majority that deserves assistance. You generalize welfare in your favor, then generalize guides has evil. Funny how we can manipulate to our favor right?

And of course some jackhole has to bring up long range hunting. In a thread that has diddly to do with it.

Sad group we have become. I have zero respect for person A who makes this choice because I don't make that choice, or have a d*** clue about it.

The only thing I will buy is that AI isn't a real hunt. I am not buying that the island is worthless. I have great memories there with my dad and grandpa, and my kids love it. There have been some great things accomplished there. If some guy pays 300 thousand dollars for a deer tag, why am I, the guy that pays a measly $40 for his tag, going to get on here and bash that? Oh yeah, because he isn't me.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Its funny.. We have this thread and I just sat down and am watching KSL outdoora and what do you know.. Bob Thomas from Johnson Ranch donated a bull hunt to a kid who has battled cancer for 5 years. Can you believe that crap! Where do this outfitters and guides get off pulling some charitable act like that. And he has done this a couple times before!! You don't have the UWN fooled for a second!


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

My bad berry, it was meant to be much broader.


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> My bad berry, it was meant to be much broader.


No worries, I don't condone the AI hunt, mostly because I don't know enough about it to have an intelligent opinion. Odd isn't it someone who actually believes they ought to know a smidge about a subject before spouting off an opinion?

My comments were much more moderate in nature, at least that was the way I hoped they came across....


----------



## huntn30inchers (Apr 21, 2014)

Im an a**hole because I made a comparison? Did you read the rest of my post? Can you read? Nobody is slamming guides that do things THE RIGHT WAY! Do you think anyone thinks that your "99 chevy" guy is dropping 6 figure bulls for some d*ick with money to burn? Are your buddies plastering half a state with wanted posters for a bull that their army of scouts cant find? Why dont you take a breath and read what is being said before you blow a gasket and start telling people how stupid they are.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

huntn30inchers said:


> Im an a**hole because I made a comparison? Did you read the rest of my post? Can you read? Nobody is slamming guides that do things THE RIGHT WAY! Do you think anyone thinks that your "99 chevy" guy is dropping 6 figure bulls for some d*ick with money to burn? Are your buddies plastering half a state with wanted posters for a bull that their army of scouts cant find? Why dont you take a breath and read what is being said before you blow a gasket and start telling people how stupid they are.


First off, the '99 Chevy comment was in response to the quote that was above it from utahgolf, not you.

Second, if you read, like you told me to, you would learn I didn't call you an A hole or stupid. I called you a jackhole. Here is why:



huntn30inchers said:


> I feel the same way about it as I do guys that poach, kill high fence animals and take real long shots. They have ZERO respect for the animals or the tradition, they want to kill things and they want to be seen doing it and they somehow convince themselves that they did a good job.


You brought up long range shooting out of nowhere, and compared people who do it to poachers and high fence hunters. Even though some of these people you have ZERO respect for probably could out shoot you with your own gun. Doesn't that make them more ethical since they deliver a more accurate shot on the animal? I just laugh that people always bring the subject and show their ignorance by spouting off about something they don't understand, only have assumed ideas about. Sorry, but I have taken longer kills than some, and I da** sure am not anything close to a poacher, or a high fence hunter. Who are you to say how someone feels about tradition or respect for an animal, based on a yardage?

So for that, I called you a jackhole. You may not be even close to one. Now you know why I feel that way in regards to this subject though.

Your opinion is completely welcomed by me, I just have a hard time with extreme generalizations. I too dislike billy bob that fires shots he has no clue he is taking. I do respect the LR hunters I know that spend range time, field time scouting, and a large amount of time in the field during the hunt. They don't shoot big bucks in general areas because they shoot far, they go deep in where most people don't want to go. Again though, this isn't an LR thread.

And yes, my buddies with their beat up old pickups that do it for the love of the mountain do have to guide for "some d*ick with money to burn", but they also have some wonderful clients as well. Handicapped, elderly, female, sick, right down to the common man or child out for an adventure.


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

To get back on topic with the original threads topic...(it's funny how every thread on here ends up turning into the same trophy hunter vs meat hunter, taking opportunity blah blah)

I believe the drama and bs usually has to do with jealousy...it drives people crazy and somehow makes them feel better..instead of being happy for someone...bull**** will always come out, untrue stories, lies etc. 

Let's look at the gentleman that killed the 300" Colorado buck...the guy was investigated, and all but burned at the stake, and rumors going around that antlers had been confiscated, total bull ****...turns out all was LEGAL! 

Haha this very forum has held many "trials" when most of the posters don't know ANY facts...


----------



## huntn30inchers (Apr 21, 2014)

Clearly, neither of us are understanding what the other is trying to say. Ill maintain my opinion and you maintain yours. At the end of the day we are all on the same team and this is a ridiculous argument. Can we at least agree on that? haha.


----------



## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

No I think you have that backwards. Not all products come from a public resource even though that is the Koolaid that the blue party has been pushing. Most product are derived from private initiative, hard work, and private resources. We use very little public resources in private production.


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> To get back on topic with the original threads topic...(it's funny how every thread on here ends up turning into the same trophy hunter vs meat hunter, taking opportunity blah blah)
> 
> I believe the drama and bs usually has to do with jealousy...it drives people crazy and somehow makes them feel better..instead of being happy for someone...bull**** will always come out, untrue stories, lies etc.
> 
> ...


none of it is jealousy, it is actually these outfits who push for *limited opportunity* meanwhile profiting from a resource paid for by the public. I have zero problem with guides as long as they aren't promoting less opportunity so they can fetch larger fees for bigger animals. If that is the case, they need to do so on *private land* and their own ranches. Same thing with conservation groups who receive their operating budgets from public resources like premium tags auctioned off and then these groups want to limit opportunity for trophy hunting and still expect average joe sportsman to foot the bulk of the bill for wildlife. That's my issue... Not jealousy.


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Golf- again this thread is so far off the op intent....(I think) that you missed everything i was saying...my reply was simply as to why there is always drama and BS around big bucks/bulls being killed...

Maybe I'm confused...lol 

Back to the guide, trophy hunter bashing


----------



## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> Hey, hey, hey......what's wrong with taking a rest on a high fence to lob a long shot at a poacher? -------SS


The LAW!


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Haha this thread kills me...i just re read through it and was swiftly reminded why I enjoy browsing through this forum....total comedy....


----------



## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

The state is not selling a public resource or for that matter anything other than a piece of parchment that allows you to pursue an animal on a given parcel of real-estate and in many cases that parcel of real-estate is not on public land. If the DWR were selling a product such as a buck deer or bull elk as the end result, it would be brought up on federal racketeering charges for fraud and deception. Utah does not have 96000 buck deer available to harvest.!!! The DWR, guides, conservation groups are selling an opportunity to pursue on animal and that is it.! 

It would appear that many are putting the cart before the horse and the horse is not out of the barn yet. A lot of jealous people on here concerned about a piece of paper which is not a public resource. Big


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

^^^^^

This guy gets it


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

100% correct! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^Both of them.

Jealousy drives these issues the OP is talking about, WITHOUT QUEASTON!


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

This thread is a perfect example of what I have said multiple times on this forum about why special interests will always win out for hunting and fishing with politicians. People create such an "us versus them" mentality that we as hunters as a whole will never come together well enough or long enough to make any bit of difference. 

Back to your regularly scheduled bickering about how your way of thinking is so far superior to the way others think. And then go ahead and just continue to blame those "others" when things don't go your way. Pretty pathetic, we hunters are...


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> So somewhere between 12/100 buck to doe ratio's, and $300,000 dollar island shoots is a happy medium. A place where biology and economics meet for tea and crumpets. I think Colorado, and Wyoming are pretty close to that place while Utah and Arizona are headed in the opposite direction....


Sorry, but I disagree. I would say that Colorado is way out of whack....in fact, Colorado's continued cutting of tags has done nothing but hurt that state's overall deer herd.

Personally, I believe the overall buck/doe ratio SHOULD be low for general season hunts. In Utah, we already have our high buck/doe ratio units--like the Henry's and Pauns units--our medium units--like the Book Cliffs--and our low units--all of the general units. It bugs the crap out of me when the "trophy" hunter mentality thinks that we need to manage the entire state for high or even medium buck/doe ratios. The push to increase buck/doe ratios on general units is an example of people unnecessarily limiting people who are willing and happy to go out and harvest young bucks.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Whilst there are a lot of hunters that will pay for a poor experience, there are also a lot that won't. I hear it, when guys struggle in success, they won't go back. so low quality poor success hunts aren't a long term sustainable option. This is especially true with youth hunters. If a youth hunter doesn't find success in the first couple years they quit. Let that statement sink in, you and I know it's true.


I think you are exactly right....but a lot of this depends on what the definition of "success" is. "Success" is different for all of us...when I began hunting, a "successful" hunt was one where I actually saw a buck...regardless of how big it was or whether I harvested or not. Over time, that definition has evolved. Had success for me been anyway equated to filling my tag, I wouldn't be a hunter today.

I believe a young hunter's definition of success is gleaned from his/her mentors. I also believe that those young hunters that pay for guiding services have the mistaken idea that it takes a filled tag to have success and that when they pay for services they are paying for a filled tag.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Yes our policy. Manage for 1 cougar for every 150 deer in Virginia like we have in Utah and it would take some real faith to believe good habitat will save the hunters there from cutting back on their harvest. Manage for 10/100 b/d ratio (most buck being yearling) and see how productive the herd becomes.
> 
> Coyote? Sure they will make a kill. But I have yet to hear about or read a study that says a coyote will kill a deer per week on average. So if you think the coyote is filling the cougars niche in Virginia and other eastern states your up in the night.
> 
> Out west wildlife managers want to reintroduce wolf. Cougar and wolf were native to eastern states, But there is no push to reintroduce them there. So yes our policy decreases supply and increases demand out west.


Are your eyes brown? Because you are so full of horse crap or bull crap, they must be! I don't even know why I respond to such nonsense....but, oh well, here goes again....

...first of all, you link to waspo's virginia hunt mentioned nothing of his overall costs and I didn't find anything that said where he hunted specifically--public or private land. It also didn't mention anything about the costs associated with muzzy or archery permits, public land use permits, military base use permits, etc.

Secondly, maybe you missed the fact that Virginia biologists feel the same way about predators as those out West. Or, maybe you just don't understand that if Virginia had lions they would manage them the same. In fact, recent reports of lion sightings in Virginia had people pretty excited in that state...and you can rest assured that if any were documented or are documented, the state would try to manage them as they are in the West.

Last of all, I know quite a few wildlife biologists in Utah and have NEVER heard any of them say anything about wanting to reintroduce wolves to Utah. In fact, they would all probably fight hard against it. To take things even a step further, the only people that I have EVER heard the desire to bring wolves back to Utah are extreme environmentalist types or groups like the center for bio diversity (extremist whackos, in my opinion). Right now, Utah's "policty" is to keep them out and manage those that do come according to Federal Law.

Your idea that the big bad mountain lion is killing all the deer is so stupid, simple-minded, and nonsensical it is really laughable. But, whatever....your arguments are all based on 1 simple idea--that lions eat deer and that's it. You have nothing else to support your opinion...


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Jealousy drives these issues the OP is talking about, WITHOUT QUEASTON!


I don't think there is any doubt that jealousy drives some of these problems (I would say, though, that it is without "QUEASTON"...whatever the hell that is!).

I am certainly jealous that Denny Austad has the money to buy for multiple big bull tags and deer tags...I certainly wish I had the dough to do that.

BUT, to me it brings up a bigger problem--should he be allowed to? How does his ability to buy these auction tags fit into the highly successful model of managing wildlife unique to North America? Does the money he brings to wildlife justify any potential damage it does to that North American model?

I would probably have less problem with these auction tags if people like Austad were limited into how many tags they could buy....much as I am limited to how often I can apply for LE tags after I have drawn one. What makes me really jealous is that I will NEVER have the opportunity to hunt these LE units as much as he has...should he have that extra opportunity just because he makes more money? I don't think so...


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

TS30 said:


> This thread is a perfect example of what I have said multiple times on this forum about why special interests will always win out for hunting and fishing with politicians. People create such an "us versus them" mentality that we as hunters as a whole will never come together well enough or long enough to make any bit of difference.
> 
> Back to your regularly scheduled bickering about how your way of thinking is so far superior to the way others think. And then go ahead and just continue to blame those "others" when things don't go your way. Pretty pathetic, we hunters are...


That's just it, though, TS30...as that quote from my first post in thread so eloquently points out, hunters have done more to limit hunting opportunity than PETA or any anti-hunting group has ever done. So, who is the enemy? Who should we be fighting against?


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wyoming2utah said:


> I would probably have less problem with these auction tags if people like Austad were limited into how many tags they could buy....much as I am limited to how often I can apply for LE tags after I have drawn one. What makes me really jealous is that I will NEVER have the opportunity to hunt these LE units as much as he has...should he have that extra opportunity just because he makes more money? I don't think so...


Institute the same waiting period for auction tags that exist on the regular LE draws? Very interesting idea there. I'm in the same boat financially as you, where I will never be able to afford to "buy" a hunt at auction like being referenced here. But the practice has never bothered me. Well, similar to you, it has bothered me because I'd love to go on a big bull hunt every stinking year like some get to...but not to the point where I think the practice should end. I just look at their pictures and dream...



wyoming2utah said:


> That's just it, though, TS30...as that quote from my first post in thread so eloquently points out, hunters have done more to limit hunting opportunity than PETA or any anti-hunting group has ever done. So, who is the enemy? Who should we be fighting against?


We don't really need to be "fighting" against anyone. We are our own worst enemy. We just need to stop fighting, and instead, working together to fight for the resource. I'm not afraid of PETA or any other anti's ending hunting. It will never happen. That is our problem, we keep fighting AGAINST each other, instead of FOR the resource. I don't anticipate that changing any time soon. Just see the vitriol expressed here in this very thread.


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> That's just it, though, TS30...as that quote from my first post in thread so eloquently points out, hunters have done more to limit hunting opportunity than PETA or any anti-hunting group has ever done. So, who is the enemy? Who should we be fighting against?


fully agree!



TS30 said:


> We don't really need to be "fighting" against anyone. We are our own worst enemy. We just need to stop fighting, and instead, working together to fight for the resource. I'm not afraid of PETA or any other anti's ending hunting. It will never happen. That is our problem, we keep fighting AGAINST each other, instead of FOR the resource. I don't anticipate that changing any time soon. Just see the vitriol expressed here in this very thread.


We have to be able to call out those in our own ranks who are doing much more harm than any anti hunting group to limit opportunity, all so they can chase inches. These "hunting" groups would like nothing more than us to stop fighting them and come together and be complacent while they quietly Hijack this great tradition and turn it into something ugly!


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Keep fighting. You're going to lose. 

I believe there is room enough for all types in the hunting world. I think if we all came to that conclusion, and worked towards the resource instead of trying to "fix" what is wrong with how everyone else sees it...we would be a lot better off.


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Golf is right. The shift is going towards big money and anybody that can't see that is blind. It will be the end of the average Joe. Money talks and it is screaming in this industry. Kiss it good bye unless your about to get a huge raise.
Ts. I agree with a lot of what your about but I completely disagree with you on this one. Have you noticed the adds on ksl with people wanting to pay thousands to hunt private land or the landowners selling "guaranteed" tags for $1000 for a **** cow? All the properties I used to hunt without having to pay are now either closed or were turned into "ranches" or "clubs" because someone figured out they could make money from these ass holes that were willing to put a price on the public's resources. Not good for anyone because it will illicit more greed and make the problem worse.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Hunting is still a CHEAP hobby as far as I'm concerned. The price is fine, the culture is where I think the problem lies. I lament when hunting scenarios start playing out like Black Friday shopping.-----SS


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

^^^ it is cheap. 

A dang box of shells costs $50 a dozen arrows $100.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Lunker, I hear ya. The land my dad used to hunt and let me tag along when I was a little jammer was taken over in the early 90's by United Sportsman. I assume it is one of the CWMUs now. I feel your pain. 

Listen, I'm as 'average Joe' as it gets when it comes to hunting and fishing. I too am concerned with some groups trying to limit opportunity. I will always stand with the public hunter and fisherman, because that's who I am. 

But the in-fighting results in those that make decisions not caring about that message. There are two things, and two things only that make the decision makers pay attention. 1- their position being threatened as a decision maker; and 2- $$$. 

The average Joe spends so much time fighting with himself that there is never a threat to their seat. So all they will pay attention to is the cash. That's why I say quit fighting against people, and start fighting FOR the resource. There really is a big difference.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ironic---- In the mist of tophy hunters killing opportunities.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/1550-new-opportunities-for-hunters.html


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

I wonder to my little self, self, what would happen if wildlife had no $$$ value???

I wonder if the rancher/cattleman/landowners that make a little coin off selling a few tags would see to it they were wiped off their property.....cause at the end of the day they do all in fact eat their feed for the very animal what puts food on their familys table.....

I wonder if my tag fees would raise if denny austad and friends didnt spend a few hundred grand a year? How much?? I know average people who cant afford an elk tag as it is.....

I wonder if landowners would have sold that winter range wildlife groups bought with $$$ generated an auctions and kept developers from building houses??

I wonder if the guzzlers would have been built?

I wonder if big horns, bison and mountain goats would even be here??
I wonder if the rancher down the road from me would have continued the massacre on cows every winter if sfw wouldnt have built a fence around his hay stack??

I wonder if no $$$ value was placed on wildlife ever, would I even see deer, elk, turkeys, moose, antelope???????

Think about it.....there is a fine line......


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Ironic---- In the mist of tophy hunters killing opportunities.
> 
> http://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/1550-new-opportunities-for-hunters.html


what was I thinking.....That's quite a lot of opportunity for those 20 lucky hunters!


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Even if it is only 20 tags, that is still 20 more hunters hitting the field. Which means 20 less people in the general season draw. And 20 more people out of the bonus point pool. Aren't those all good things? No way around it...that is more "opportunity." 

Not huge, but still more opportunity. Some people complain when you give them $20 because it was not $100. Nothing can be done for those people.


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

TS30 said:


> Even if it is only 20 tags, that is still 20 more hunters hitting the field. Which means 20 less people in the general season draw. And 20 more people out of the bonus point pool. Aren't those all good things? No way around it...that is more "opportunity."
> 
> Not huge, but still more opportunity. Some people complain when you give them $20 because it was not $100. Nothing can be done for those people.


bait-and-switch


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> I can't believe how much drama comes out when ever a really big buck or bull is killed.
> Some of it is justified and a lot of it is not.
> One thing is for sure, when there's big money involved, people will do what ever it takes to get the job done.
> And people will feel cheated one way or another when things don't go their way.


Back to the original topic...one reason, I believe you see so much drama surrounding these really big animals in some cases revolves around the number of people who have seen it and wanted to kill it. When one animal becomes the sole object of so many hunters hunts, the one who harvests it is thrown under the microscope of a lot of people's personal code of ethics. Also, these big animals are often paraded out into the public through all kinds of different media tools and even social media....at that point the hunter's ethics again are thrown under the public microscope. Right or wrong, this is what happens. My suggestion is that if you as a hunter do not want someone else criticizing your personal ethics, don't put them out on public display!

I absolutely believe jealousy becomes part of the issue...and people will use that to fuel an ethics fire of attack...sometimes justified and sometimes not!


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

I think I might be sick...I'm agreeing with wyo2ut on this^^^^


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

OMG---ME TOO...:!:....

He right.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Back to the original topic...one reason, I believe you see so much drama surrounding these really big animals in some cases revolves around the number of people who have seen it and wanted to kill it. When one animal becomes the sole object of so many hunters hunts, the one who harvests it is thrown under the microscope of a lot of people's personal code of ethics. Also, these big animals are often paraded out into the public through all kinds of different media tools and even social media....at that point the hunter's ethics again are thrown under the public microscope. Right or wrong, this is what happens. My suggestion is that if you as a hunter do not want someone else criticizing your personal ethics, don't put them out on public display!
> 
> I absolutely believe jealousy becomes part of the issue...and people will use that to fuel an ethics fire of attack...sometimes justified and sometimes not!


I completely agree with your comment and it's what's happening in general.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

As for the outfitters offering finder fees, which they do. 
I now for a fact that this years Gov. tag buck was found by a scab, then he shopped the bucks video around for the highest bidder.
It would be nice if the state or DWR would put a $500.00 limit on these finder fees, like what we have on big buck contest now.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

What makes you think he got any money. My guess is he got the bone and the guide said he already knew about it.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

No way I am reading this whole thread, but WY2 made a good post. There is one side which will cause drama because of jealousy. There is another side which will question why an animal is killed under certain circumstances-- "posse", flying, drones, trespassing, weather, etc.. 

I never liked it when people say "don't worry about others' methods/ethics". But isn't that how laws/regulations came about, to define acceptable manners of hunting? As technology and social issues change, so should rules which protect the resource. I'll let the process define what those are. I rarely get jealous of antlers and I try to stay out of the drama. 

I killed a rather large record animal, never posted it to a site, nor sent out photos, and people I never knew were bad-mouthing me as they heard about it through the grapevine. My fault for letting people talk me into having it scored......


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> What makes you think he got any money. My guess is he got the bone and the guide said he already knew about it.


Because I asked the guy that took the pictures. He said he shared the money with another guy.
I also heard another 3rd party got bent because he got left out.
Like I said before, someone will always feel they got the short end of the stick.
I've done some research on that buck in the past week and I must say, the deeper I dig, the muddier the waters get.


----------



## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

I can see many different sides to the conversation. As more of a meat hunter myself I still have a lot of respect for trophy hunters who put in the time and effort to harvest an animal. As evidenced this year we have seen some very nice bulls taken during the general seasons by guys who didn't pay someone else to do the work for them, they had the time to be in the woods and knew their areas. On the flip side you have guys who work their butts off simply to pay a guide to ensure they are successful hunting the limited days they may have to be in the woods. Most guides are humble and honest folks who obey the law, but as we know there are a few bad apples out there just like in any profession who give the hobby a bad name. As long as all laws are obeyed I have no problem with someone paying a guide or buying an expensive tag that puts money back into our economy.


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

30-06-hunter said:


> I can see many different sides to the conversation. As more of a meat hunter myself I still have a lot of respect for trophy hunters who put in the time and effort to harvest an animal. As evidenced this year we have seen some very nice bulls taken during the general seasons by guys who didn't pay someone else to do the work for them, they had the time to be in the woods and knew their areas. On the flip side you have guys who work their butts off simply to pay a guide to ensure they are successful hunting the limited days they may have to be in the woods. Most guides are humble and honest folks who obey the law, but as we know there are a few bad apples out there just like in any profession who give the hobby a bad name. As long as all laws are obeyed I have no problem with someone paying a guide or buying an expensive tag that puts money back into our economy.


^^^^this is a guy who gets our current system...

Someone mentioned putting the 5 yr wait on cons tags I think that's a no brainer...


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

ridgetop said:


> Because I asked the guy that took the pictures. He said he shared the money with another guy.
> I also heard another 3rd party got bent because he got left out.
> Like I said before, someone will always feel they got the short end of the stick.
> I've done some research on that buck in the past week and I must say, the deeper I dig, the muddier the waters get.


Haha ridge just leave it be, it will get worse and worse the more you find out!


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Haha ridge just leave it be, it will get worse and worse the more you find out!


I know.
I've found myself screaming... TMI, TMI! :grin:


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Well this thread is about drama with big animals....

So let's hear it!


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

TS30 said:


> Well this thread is about drama with big animals....
> 
> So let's hear it!


I'm sure you can share a few things about certain animals from the past.
Let hear it.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

This thread just ignited what the OP was talking about... Now you guys mights as well spill the beans on the Gov tag.... Sooooo much drama!


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> I'm sure you can share a few things about certain animals from the past.
> Let hear it.


Oh, I don't know enough of the usual "players" to even have an idea about any of these animals. I like looking at pictures of big animals. I don't really care whose logo is slapped in the corner or how much the tag cost. But I must admit, when there is a good story attached with some dirt and/or drama...I'll pay attention.


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

TS30 said:


> Well this thread is about drama with big animals....
> 
> So let's hear it!


Bad idea TS it's not pretty...


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Was the shooter part of 360? Didn't he get charged with poaching? 

Come on ridge you pored the gas may as well light it. What's the story?


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Kid who filmed it owns 365 pursuit and is facing revocation for 'guiding' his buddy into an extended archery buck in the back yard of his neighbors house in Heber...just a little outside the boundary it wasn't his first run in with wildlife violations


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Kid who filmed it owns 365 pursuit and is facing revocation for 'guiding' his buddy into an extended archery buck in the back yard of his neighbors house in Heber...just a little outside the boundary it wasn't his first run in with wildlife violations


Oops that cant be the whole story though


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

berrysblaster said:


> Bad idea TS it's not pretty...


I'm a big boy. I can handle it! Plus, if people are breaking the law, they should get exposed.


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

swbuckmaster said:


> Oops that cant be the whole story though


People are claiming it was not on public property, obviously they say otherwise but there is a large drag mark on the back of it that makes me really wonder...they claim it happened before it was shot. The buck was filmed locked up with another so it's possible but I still wonder


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

berrysblaster said:


> People are claiming it was not on public property, obviously they say otherwise but there is a large drag mark on the back of it that makes me really wonder...they claim it happened before it was shot. The buck was filmed locked up with another so it's possible but I still wonder


The gov tag? Is that the 277" that moss guided?

Albert Richard shot it. When I re-look at the picture though his back does look like he is missing a lot of hair.

Not adding to the drama. I don't mind when a DIY hunter or guided hunter takes a big buck, or a local legend(cemetery)... but I do believe when you get some freak like the Spider that no one ever saw(guys that live on the unit) or found sheds of with their drone(haha) or the largest buck ever shot on the gov tag, I am sure there is always a loooooongg back story we don't know.

I think the coolest stories are the ones that have years. The fire bull is a good example. That guy had like 3 years of sheds, and bought a set from one of the years he missed... And he finally had his opportunity. He chased moby dick for years.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I don't think moss guided it. I thought 365 guided it.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

swbuckmaster said:


> I don't think moss guided it. I thought 365 guided it.


Nope. If it was the 2014 gov tag than Mossback guided it. 365 just went along and filmed it.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I think its postable since it is labeled and all over the net:


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Check out this link. WARNING!!!! For adult only. Very vulgar.
http://websta.me/n/gfy_outfitters
These are the guys that got the finders fee.
Now how can anyone say that bounties don't bring out some real classy people?
In the second picture from the top, where the two bucks are laying together. The one looks already dead and the other very close to it. 
Looks like to me that the buck rubbed the hair off his back on that rock he's laying next to, while trying to get free from the lock up.
Now that picture was taken on an unhuntable piece of property but the buck somehow found his strength and travel several miles onto a small piece of BLM land where it was shot a week later.
What are the odds?
That's one lucky hunter!


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

ridgetop said:


> Check out this link. WARNING!!!! For adult only. Very vulgar.
> http://websta.me/n/gfy_outfitters
> These are the guys that got the finders fee.
> Now how can anyone say that bounties don't bring out some real classy people?
> ...


Ridge did you figure out how will farrar is connected to those fella's? He's one of their followers...


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Ridge did you figure out how will farrar is connected to those fella's? He's one of their followers...


Will wants to stay out it. 
He had some interesting questions for me to ask, if I wanted to stir the pot but like you said, it might be a good thing to just let it go.


----------



## bkelz (Dec 3, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> I watched a Clint Eastwood movie the other day, "The Unforgiven".
> It's about a prostitute that gets her face cut up by a couple of cowboys.
> Well, the local law enforcement won't do anything about what happened.
> So the girls other prostitute friends pitch in and offer a $1,000 reward for the death of those two cowboys.
> ...


It for sure creates as black market for killing animals. Typical government.


----------

