# Antelope island deer tag



## stick&string89 (Jun 21, 2012)

Just curious does anyone know how much this sold for last night? Thanks


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

390 freaking thousand dollars!

I was scrolling through the auction results list....the economy is going really well for some people. A 10-day caribou hunt for 3 (including one vet) went for $4000,000.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

And then everyone will think the guy hung the moon when they shoot a really good deer...

Big deal. That's really not an accomlishment.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

A majority of the elk tags went for 20-30k on Friday at the day auction. The Beaver NANNY Goat tag went for 18k! 10,000 rounds of .22 went for $1500.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

More hunts that sold last night:

Boulder any weapon LE elk----46K

State wide cougar------------19k

S Slope premium elk-----------16k

Landowner Phavant elk-------38k

Nevada state wide deer-------100k

San Juan dersert BH---------46k

Boulder premium elk -----------52k

Wasatch moose-------------23k

Newfoundland Cali BH---------72.5k

Beaver anyweapon elk--------50k


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I am in the wrong business, that's for sure!


----------



## drsx (Sep 8, 2010)

That's insane


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> The Beaver NANNY Goat tag went for 18k!


Those Beaver nannys are huge. There was a nanny running with the pack my wife shot her billy out of, it was crazy how big it was. The guides kept asking, "you sure you don't want grandma there? That thing is huge!"

This is the one Mt Goat hunt that's probably worth the money for retired old guys... its very accessable (you can ride a horse the whole way). If I had 18k to burn I'd do it in a heartbeat.

-DallanC


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

What's even more disturbing is that so many of you are ok with this bullchit. 

If I can spend enough can I buy my own state land hunting unit to shoot a semi captive buck??

To cheer at the perversion of what the public trust is supposed to guarantee 
Is beyond belief.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm not necessarily "okay" with it. But it doesn't bother me either. 

I do have to ask...how does the AI hunt violate the public trust?


----------



## Blanding_Boy (Nov 21, 2007)

Wiley--

Not trying to stir the pot (really) and what happened last night was beyond ridiculousness BUT...please expound on what you mean by..."what the public trust is supposed to guarantee" I just want to see what you mean by that.

Todd


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

deleted my post. Not going to stir the pot myself


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

TS, you do understand the concept behind the public trust doctorine, right??

Let me answer your question with another question. 

Would you be cool with auctioning a December bull elk tag to pay operating expenses for hardware ranch??


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

390 k? wow, whatever floats your boat I guess. I'd take that 390 k and buy several hunts to actually hunt wild animals. Instead of a tame deer on a stinky island. Since the money goes towards the island are these things seen as charitable donations and some of it can be deducted as a tax thing? Only way I could wrap my head around why someone wants to shoot a tame animal.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wileywapati said:


> TS, you do understand the concept behind the public trust doctorine, right??
> 
> Let me answer your question with another question.
> 
> Would you be cool with auctioning a December bull elk tag to pay operating expenses for hardware ranch??


Yes, I do. Very well, actually. Your question did not answer mine. How does the AI hunt violate the state's public trust duties?


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Great question Mr. Black. 

I'll bite for the sake of moving on. The PTD defined means that certain things are held as being owned by the people and should be managed to perpetuate generationally. 

That being answered, now how's about we donate a few tags to PETA, HSUS and the Hillary Clinton Campaign Fund. 

90% of this money will go to benefit our herds. 

Even better idea.. Let's give UDOT a few then we don't need to raise the gas tax. 

But my all time favorite is to give a couple orgs 2000 permits over the next decade to pay for an expo that will fill hotel rooms, provide kickback money so a couple dudes like Noel and Okerlund can make sure that another org defends the state against wolves and them eyesore sage grouse leks, it would be even better if said legislators were to raid a FFSL fund specifically earmarked to battle Phragmites on one of the most important ecosystems in the west.


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

TS, how about a Strawberry Bay new boat ramp elk tag??


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

or a blind auction system out at the marsh to fight phrag? Possibilities are endless!


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Don't even float that idea golf.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

It violates the trust of certain people who are jealous for sure.------SS


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Is the jealousy comment directed at me SS??


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

wileywapati said:


> TS, how about a Strawberry Bay new boat ramp elk tag??


I for one like this thinking


----------



## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

I Think the entire thing is a load of UNDER WORK OVER PAID BUNCH OF BS>> :-o


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

SS???


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

wileywapati said:


> SS???


Not sure if it's directed at you because I don't know you. My comment is based on the fact that human nature makes us all susceptible to jealousy and that I think that many of our disagreements are based somewhat upon that jealousy. My knee jerk reaction is that I don't like the idea that someone would buy a deer tag for the value of my home.....but then I catch myself and wonder what the real basis for my dislike is. That's all.-----SS


----------



## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

wileywapati said:


> SS???


WW,

You'll probably have to wait awhile for SS to give you a response.

Your point of public trust if valid in the sense there is no transparent accountability of where SWF revenue goes. If any SWF supporter can provide non-profit reports and indicate where they are reported for the last several years I will join SFW tomorrow.

Here's another great example of the black hole around SWF/BGF alliance. Ryan Benson is given $2M to lobby against listing Sage Grouse on the Endangered Species list and all BGF can provide is this PDF with no financial reporting of how and where the money goes. http://le.utah.gov/interim/2014/pdf/00004765.pdf

Remember your legislatures are in session and great time to give them a call.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I agree with DD, if there is a breach in the PTD that I learned about in school, it would not be in the selling of the tags but in the misappropriation of the funds generated.-----SS


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

SS, I can assure you that jealousy comes nowhere in to this
Whole fiasco. 

If Denny Austed has a system where he can hunt deer on an 
Island every year, good for him. Cost is mostly irrelevant. 

What does send me over the edge is that the system is so gerrymandered
That hunters would think its a good thing to allow wildlife to be used in this
Fashion. 

Is it our herds responsibility to pay operating expenses for AI State Park??
Is it our herds responsibility to pay for a bunch of hotel rooms to be filled
This time every year??
Is it our herds responsibility to Peay to lobby against our own interests??

Now back to the questions from Blanding and TS. If this is not a perversion of the PTD. 
I'm not sure what is. 

Duke, I agree 100%, the funding to make what you described happen ain't coming
Out of Peay and Benson's pockets. It's coming from auctioning our public trust, and 
Proceeds from this expo. 

If you think it ain't you ain't paying attention.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Well.......it is "our" state park and "our" local economy that we're talking about as well.----SS


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

WW- you've talked in circles about your dislike for the expo, but you've yet to answer the question. How does the AI hunt violate the public trust? 

I don't care about SFW's total lack of accountability or transparency. I think everyone except the most ardent supporters of SFW acknowledge those facts. But that is a completely separate issue that has NOTHING to do with the public trust involved with the deer hunt each year on AI. So, let's hear it, since you understand the public trust doctrine so well. Educate us.


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

TS, brother I've answered it several times. 

If you believe a responsible use of the public trust
Is to pay bills, allow private entities to profit and a certain
Group to benefit exclusively, then we ain't talking about the 
Same Public Trust Doctorine.


----------



## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

TS30 said:


> WW- you've talked in circles about your dislike for the expo, but you've yet to answer the question. How does the AI hunt violate the public trust?
> 
> I don't care about SFW's total lack of accountability or transparency. I think everyone except the most ardent supporters of SFW acknowledge those facts. But that is a completely separate issue that has NOTHING to do with the public trust involved with the deer hunt each year on AI. So, let's hear it, since you understand the public trust doctrine so well. Educate us.


I would challenge your disassociation between SFW practices and AI hunts. SFW lobbied for hunting (should be expanded greatly) on AI and half of those tags run through their process as fund raisers. This process of AI tags and revenue rolling into the SFW blackhole violates public trust.

Now the thing I don't know and would like to see if anyone could provide is if there is a line item adding the tag revenue into the State Park budget.


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Don't think I'm excluding the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources, 
The Wildlife Board or the Utah State Legislature. 

They are every bit as flea ridden as $FW and the
Money for Deer Foundation.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wileywapati said:


> TS, brother I've answered it several times.
> 
> If you believe a responsible use of the public trust
> Is to pay bills, allow private entities to profit and a certain
> ...


No you haven't. You've talked in circles and asked questions. I'm good to not keep going down this road if you just say you're not going to actually get into the details and just want to spew the meaningless rhetoric. I can go out and look at those deer anytime I want to pay an entrance fee to the state park. I can film them, photograph them....heck, if I look and smell like a deer enough, I could even pet them. I just can't shoot them. But neither can anyone else if these hunts weren't going. Public trust has been found by EVERY court to decide the issue to be, at least to some extent, a balance of issues. Auctioning off 1 tag helps other wildlife on the island immensely. And it opened an opportunity for a member of the public that wasn't there before as well. If this violates your definition of public trust, then your are right. We aren't talking about the same public trust. I'm talking about the legal one, however.

Dukes Daddy. If I remember correctly, Antelope Island State Park retains 90% of the auction price to enhance habitat specifically on the island. MDF (not SFW) gets the other 10%.


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

fair enough TS, our opinions differ.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I know one thing for sure,
Today was the busyest day I've EVER seen at the Expo....:!:....
That place was jam packed.............................


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wileywapati said:


> fair enough TS, our opinions differ.


I'm not defending the state's actions under the public trust. In fact, I'm part of a group that has sued the state on this topic, specifically that the Utah legislature has violated the public trust with public resources. We should get a district court ruling here soon. Utah has been really bad of late with this, and it's why I 100% am against taking control of federal lands. But understanding the legal concept, I don't think it applies the way that you do to the AI hunt. There are a hundred other things probably wrong with that hunt. But public trust isn't one of them.

Goof, today was INSANE! I couldn't believe it. I think my odds of drawing an expo tag got even lower this year...


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I think its funny, actually, how people will flock to those with the big dollars that buy these hunts as though they might make a "new friend" and be included in that circle. Seen it many times in other settings, RMEF is one.

Saw the deer that was shot this past year on Antelope Island. Nice deer, but really not as impressive as it would be with some guy who put the time in and fit a hunt in around work, family, church, or whatever and takes a solid 210" class muley.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Fun fact: the public trust doctrine is a land management policy only. Illinois central railroad co. v. Illinois is the central case on the issue. Deer tags have nothing to do with it.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

C'mon Johnny, let them go all "Mills and Kant" on us. The Social Contract correlation is next up.....stay tuned.----SS


----------



## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

Once again the wealthy men in the room go for the show of throwing their money around to let others know they have it. Reminds me of a high class art auction. Just with antlers instead...

No thanks


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Last night permit sale:

Utah Statewide Pronghorn - $19,000
San Juan Premium Elk - $62,500
Utah Statewide Moose - $90,000
Zion Desert Bighorn - $85,000
Utah Statewide Desert Bighorn - $85,000
Henry Mtn Deer - $100,000
Utah Statewide Elk - $100,000
Henry Mtn Deer - $95,000
Utah Statewide Mountain Goat - $50,000

State wide deer permits:
Utah Deer-$220,000
Colorado Deer-$105,000
*Arizona Deer-$320,000 *


----------



## Ogden Archer (Aug 27, 2014)

I was wondering why we were the ONLY boat on the lake yesterday...


----------



## fin little (Aug 26, 2010)

It would be interesting to know the age of responders on this thread. In general I believe the younger you are the more acceptable the direction our hunting lifestyle is heading. Theres a whole generation that have only known hunting in its current morphed competitive form. Its sad that they missed out. I mourn our loss more and more the older I get. Its going to be hard to argue this as our heritage in the future . I am a Hipocrit, I bought 20 tickets  55yo


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

44 Years old here. Never been a trophy hunter, never measured inches on any game animal, and don't intend to. 

As for Antelope Island, I'd like to see ALL "hunting" on the Island go away. I am a hunter, and I enjoy all that goes with the sport. But as much as I love to hunt, I love the natural world as it is even more. I am a believer that we ought to have some places set aside where we can just appreciate it for what it is. I'm glad we don't hunt in Yellowstone for example. That is a good thing. I love love LOVE Antelope Island. Even with the lake stink and brine flies. It is a pretty amazing place. And granted, with the history of ranching, it is far from pristine wilderness. But it is still an amazing place. As an Island, it can be managed on its own, and there is no biological reason to hunt deer there. And the way the domestic bison are rounded up and sold each year, there is no reason to "hunt" them either. I get how much money is generated for the Island, and the benefit of that. But really - there ought to be some place we can go just for the appreciation of wildlife, without having to kill it. But that is just me.

But the whole tag thing reminds me of the story of they man that was offered $100 to let another guy sleep with his wife. He said "no way, I am a man with strong morals." Then the offer went to $10 million. To which the guy responded "I think we could arrange things." To which the man making the offer responded "Well, I know now that your morals are for sale - at this point it is just a matter of negotiating the price." 

The Antelope Island deer tag crossed the line that anything related to our wildlife in Utah is for sale - it is just a matter of negotiating the price.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

fin little said:


> Theres a whole generation that have only known hunting in its current morphed competitive form. Its sad that they missed out. I mourn our loss more and more the older I get. Its going to be hard to argue this as our heritage in the future . I am a Hipocrit, I bought 20 tickets  55yo


If you wanted to see competitive hunting you should of seen what when on when all the major sporting goods stores had big buck contest. I know of one hunter that killed the largest buck in a number of them for a number of years running but he sold or gave away the antlers to others that wanted to win the contest.

I'm 62 now and don't need to extra meat that a deer or two every year would bring, so I am now a trophy hunter unless I am after meat. I'll usually shoot 1 or 2 cow elk a year and give 99% of the meat away, but for deer I want antlers.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I will just throw out that I am more P***** off that AI charges $11,000 for some shed hunters to be allowed to take deer sheds off the island than I am that one rich SOB shoots a deer for $400,000. 

I am not a shed hunter. I just think if I am hiking on AI I should have the right to pick up a naturally fallen shed, and Denny and them other boys MILLIONs that have been donated over the past decade should suffice to cover any wear and tear that I am causing.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

28 Here. 

It is just people trying to keep up with the Jones'. 

We have hunting shows that turn down deer/elk that almost everyone else would shoot and end up shooting something massive that leaves us in envy.

A lot of people just want to brag to their friends of their achievements. I know talking to a taxidermist that there are some people that shoot a 4x4 elk and have the taxidermist add points to make it a 8x9 just to hang in the office for everyone to see and envy. 

There will always be people that horn hunt and there will always be people that meat hunt. People should just enjoy their time in the field.

I fear there will come a day when all tags are once in a lifetime, so we should just do our part to enjoy the time in the woods. 

AI generates a lot of money in these auctions and hopefully that money is being put to good use.


----------



## bamacpl (Jun 1, 2010)

randomelk16 said:


> i will just throw out that i am more p***** off that ai charges $11,000 for some shed hunters to be allowed to take deer sheds off the island than i am that one rich sob shoots a deer for $400,000.
> 
> I am not a shed hunter. I just think if i am hiking on ai i should have the right to pick up a naturally fallen shed, and denny and them other boys millions that have been donated over the past decade should suffice to cover any wear and tear that i am causing.


very well said!!!!


----------



## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> I will just throw out that I am more P***** off that AI charges $11,000 for some shed hunters to be allowed to take deer sheds off the island than I am that one rich SOB shoots a deer for $400,000.
> 
> I am not a shed hunter. I just think if I am hiking on AI I should have the right to pick up a naturally fallen shed, and Denny and them other boys MILLIONs that have been donated over the past decade should suffice to cover any wear and tear that I am causing.


Went to the Expo Sun. to look around. Wrote it off a few years back, but had nothing to do and wanted to pick up a bino strap from Kuiu.

Walked through Mossbacks display and came across all the AI mounts and shed mounts. Has MB guided every AI hunt so far? Also surprised at all the matching sheds from years prior of deer taken on these hunts. Not sure if replicas or real deal, but all where labeled "owned by MB"?


----------



## bamacpl (Jun 1, 2010)

Does anyone know what a booth goes for at the expo?


----------



## Shunter (Jul 23, 2014)

bamacpl said:


> Does anyone know what a booth goes for at the expo?


I believe it's $1,300


----------



## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

My father in law runs a few expos and I would assume it works close to the same way but it's dependent on location, size, power or no power, how many chairs/tables etc. I would not be surprised if the average was around $1300.00


----------



## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

So the same guy out of canada bought both the AI tag and the Arizona tag? 24 yr old guide right? Was he buying for clients of his I'd take it? Unless this kid was born into some serious money...


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Can one buy them for clients? Having never been a part of an auction tag...are they transferable?


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

yes. In fact a lot of people are there purchasing the tags for others. They are also sold online as part of the auction as well.


----------



## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

bigbr said:


> The state is not selling a public resource or for that matter anything other than a piece of parchment that allows you to pursue an animal on a given parcel of real-estate and in many cases that parcel of real-estate is not on public land. If the DWR were selling a product such as a buck deer or bull elk as the end result, it would be brought up on federal racketeering charges for fraud and deception. Utah does not have 96000 buck deer available to harvest.!!! The DWR, guides, conservation groups are selling an opportunity to pursue on animal and that is it.!
> 
> It would appear that many are putting the cart before the horse and the horse is not out of the barn yet. A lot of jealous people on here concerned about a piece of paper which is not a public resource. Big


Once again we sportsmen are arguing about wildlife issues as if they were land issues and public property. Johnny Cake is spot on with his assessment of Public Trust Doctrine. Constitutionally and under the tenth amendment states have reserved the rights to dispose of or conserve wildlife any way they see fit.! The only public trust associated with wildlife is that Utah has adopted wildlife administrative code that has been sanctioned through the executive powers of the state of Utah and a few season dates that have been set by state legislature. That is it! Oh and the feds have summarily assumed the rights to migratory birds and endangered species.

I would assume that selling school trust lands to the highest bidder would also somehow violate this all too quoted "Public Trust Doctrine"? 
Once again, like water, and minerals, in Utah, wildlife is not attached to the property in which it resides.
Big


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

> I would assume that selling school trust lands to the highest bidder would also somehow violate this all too quoted "Public Trust Doctrine"?


On this point, not necessarily. Trust lands are to be managed for revenue and if you can show that a sale in fee simple to a private holder is a better use the state may--doesn't have to--sell the land and not run afoul of public trust.

As for wildlife, it is important to note that the federal government and the states SHARE ownership of wildlife. The feds merely delegate the regulation of most of them to the states (with your aforementioned migratory birds/endangered species/marine mammals etc.) This is why there are mandatory minimums for NR tags where tags are limited, because NRs pay federal taxes and thereby have a right to hunt animals in the U.S.


----------



## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> As for wildlife, it is important to note that the federal government and the states SHARE ownership of wildlife. The feds merely delegate the regulation of most of them to the states (with your aforementioned migratory birds/endangered species/marine mammals etc.) This is why there are mandatory minimums for NR tags where tags are limited, because NRs pay federal taxes and thereby have a right to hunt animals in the U.S.


Close, but not quite accurate though. Wildlife are owned in common by the public. Ownership isn't the issue though, it's management. The States manage all wildlife within their boundaries under the Public Trust Doctrine (Geer v. Connecticut). The exception is under federal special purpose laws (the ones you mention) which delegate management and allocation (not ownership) of wildlife resources to fulfill legislative and executive branch requirements or international treaty obligations.

The reason for non-resident tags have nothing to do with non-residents paying federal taxes or federal oversight. There are no mandatory minimums for non-resident tags, except ones that a state self-imposes on itself. States sell non-resident tags because it provides a significant portion of revenue, not because the federal government makes them, which it doesn't.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I think some of you should read this article on public trust and wildlife:
http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/future-of-public-trust.pdf
and this:
http://joomla.wildlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=171


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I still agree with what TR said on the subject: "The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide or for the feathers or for the meat or to sell antlers and other trophies....and the rich who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions--these are the men who are the real enemies of game."

"The peril in some of the contemporary forms of commercial hunting is not in that they seek compensation for landowner needs or for services provided. The peril is its own belief that it must exclude every rank and file hunter or aspiring hunter unable or unwilling to pay the toll." From "Commerce, Conservation & the Democracy of Hunting"


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

gdog said:


> Went to the Expo Sun. to look around. Wrote it off a few years back, but had nothing to do and wanted to pick up a bino strap from Kuiu.
> 
> Walked through Mossbacks display and came across all the AI mounts and shed mounts. Has MB guided every AI hunt so far? Also surprised at all the matching sheds from years prior of deer taken on these hunts. Not sure if replicas or real deal, but all where labeled "owned by MB"?


Mossback guides most of them, yes. Especially since they quit doing the Sportsman tag.

Not all Sheds are owned by them. They try and buy them off the finders though. I know one of the owners of a set, his were labeled with his name. He has a few really large sets from out there.


----------



## troller (Jun 27, 2013)

A bidder from Canada has set a world record high of $390,000 for the right to hunt one mule deer buck at a Utah state park in November.
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/2015/feb/23/utah-mule-deer-hunt-auctioned-record-390k/


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Wow:



> "There is a perception out there that the hunting permit money is keeping Antelope Island around. All that money is used on conservation," Shaw said. "We have our own operating budget and we make money each year. The auction money does help with the range conditions, but we don't need it to run."


So they actually had a surplus of income without the tags.

-DallanC


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not sure he said that Dallan. I think he said that they generate revenue in ways other than the hunting tags. I don't know how things are now, but back when I had data on such things, AI was one of only a couple of parks that recovered their operating costs through entry fees. In other words, they at least broke even.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

"The acutions have been so successful, just about a third of the conservation funding has been used.

Antelope Island State Park manager Jeremy Shaw said the money has been spent on a variety of projects and that none has been used as part of the park’s operating budget."


"Mule Deer Foundation and Utah Division of Wildlife Resources managers have questioned if the 26,000-acre park ever will be able to use the always-increasing pool of reserved money."


So yeah, they they don't use it for operating costs and have only spend a third. If they have raised 1.4 million, they have spent 467k and still have 934k or so left and growing.

This is pretty revealing.


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

well I doubt they have 900 k laying around. People need new vehicles, additions to their homes, vacations. etc. -O|o-


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

The question I would have would be this for the Island. What habitat improvement projects are really needed? The bison herd is managed at objective, with a couple hundred animals sold every year to keep things in balance. The deer herd has been culled this past year by trapping and transplanting elsewhere. So if the habitats are producing animals beyond the Island's capacity to support them, is the habitat in need of improvement? If not, then the money will just keep pooling up. 

The other thing along a different train of thought - some improvements for visitor services can be very pricey - costing into the millions. Like for example, a road that could service the west side of the Island. That would cost a couple millions. How cool would it be for any government agency to be able to pay for some kind of public works project without having to bond for it or count on future tax revenues. So if they save it until they have enough for a big project, I guess that works. 

(Here I say these things when I am 100% opposed to ALL hunting on the Island - no matter what money it brings.  )


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I wonder if a cougar for every 150 deer on AI and a pack of wolf. Would degrade the "habitat" enough so that culling is not required. Then we could get rid of the buff and deer hunt there.


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

utahgolf said:


> well I doubt they have 900 k laying around. People need new vehicles, additions to their homes, vacations. etc. -O|o-


 Don't forget about lawsuits.

http://www.kutv.com/news/features/t...ictim-breaks-silence-88557.shtml#.VO3mN2c5A5t


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

As I have said before, I'm not a big proponent of the AI hunts, but they don't bother me either. 

That said, I would WAAAAAY rather have Antelope Island State Park have a surplus sitting there from these auctions than for SFW, MDF, or any other organization that has no accountability to the public get that money.


----------



## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

TS30 said:


> As I have said before, I'm not a big proponent of the AI hunts, but they don't bother me either.
> 
> That said, I would WAAAAAY rather have Antelope Island State Park have a surplus sitting there from these auctions than for SFW, MDF, or any other organization that has no accountability to the public get that money.


But theres the rub. MDF did get a pile of money from this tag, $39,900. For what exactly? As has been pointed out over and over the island broke at least even year in, year out. 
We all hate lawyers for the discussions from earlier, but what this tag does is points out that hunters ARE NOT CONSERVATIONISTS. This tag is not biologically necessary. If you make the arguement that the range can't handle the deer, then should you not make the same argument for antelope? Why are they not hunted? This tag doesn't save anything, create better conditions for anything, or stop overcrowding(2 dead deer don't stop overcrowding). What it does is create such gawd awful PR that i can't believe the antis dont jump all over it. Second, you bet your azz that every state legislator now is dreaming up all the pet projects he/she can do if allowed to sell a tag. Last, the majority of Davis county resisdents, myself included, were opposed to this tag.
Can't help but wonder if we had a vote, and it was worded honestly, "if MDF profits $39,000 for some Canadian shooting a deer on the island would you be for or against."

Lastly, and someone will have to explain this one to me, if you can bid online for these tags, why the hell is the UDWR not doing an online bid for them and keeping 100% of the money. How does it benefit the elk herd on the Manti for PF Changs or Ruths Chris to be busy? How is it that the most densly populated county in the state, the one with the least wildlife or public land benefits from selling a tag in Juab or Sevier County? 
I have a smaller shlong, so perhaps I am jealous, but this auction is soley a big shlong contest, and EVERYONE who benefits has little to do with conservation. Doyle profits, southern exposure benefits, the hilton benefits, Olive Garden profits. We have fewer deer today than when this abortion started, yet $FW/MDF have made millions selling it as the "great white hope". Sorry boys but at some point we need to look at results!!!


----------



## RichardClarke (Nov 5, 2011)

Hoss has a good point about the DWR conducting the online auction. This isn't unprecedented. Each year the State Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA) holds an auction and they raise a few million dollars selling off parcels of their land. They aren't paying an outside contractor a commission to conduct a rudimentary auction. The SITLA auctions are conducted by an employee. If the demand is truly there the high rollers will find a way to win the auction, regardless of whether it is online or in person.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

hossblur said:


> But theres the rub. MDF did get a pile of money from this tag, $39,900. For what exactly? As has been pointed out over and over the island broke at least even year in, year out.
> We all hate lawyers for the discussions from earlier, but what this tag does is points out that hunters ARE NOT CONSERVATIONISTS. This tag is not biologically necessary. If you make the arguement that the range can't handle the deer, then should you not make the same argument for antelope? Why are they not hunted? This tag doesn't save anything, create better conditions for anything, or stop overcrowding(2 dead deer don't stop overcrowding). What it does is create such gawd awful PR that i can't believe the antis dont jump all over it. Second, you bet your azz that every state legislator now is dreaming up all the pet projects he/she can do if allowed to sell a tag. Last, the majority of Davis county resisdents, myself included, were opposed to this tag.
> Can't help but wonder if we had a vote, and it was worded honestly, "if MDF profits $39,000 for some Canadian shooting a deer on the island would you be for or against."
> 
> ...


I could be wrong, but I think the funds on the island help relocate the deer/sheep to their new home.


----------



## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

RichardClarke said:


> Hoss has a good point about the DWR conducting the online auction. This isn't unprecedented. Each year the State Institutional Trust Lands Administration (SITLA) holds an auction and they raise a few million dollars selling off parcels of their land. They aren't paying an outside contractor a commission to conduct a rudimentary auction. The SITLA auctions are conducted by an employee. If the demand is truly there the high rollers will find a way to win the auction, regardless of whether it is online or in person.


Hate to point it out, but the UDWR has an online site that deals in tags every year. Funny how they can't handle these ones. Do the math, $fw and MDF are about the best paid "tech guys" in the state for "handling" this auction.

I had another thought, and I have defended Tony Abbot from time to time, but how long until his Utah County Expo wants welfare? How do you stop it? Afterall he did help set up this abortion, and knows exactly how little he would have to give to wildlife in order to get his cut. How do you plan to stop that? If its good for wildlife for SL county to profit, how is it not good for Utah County to profit as well?


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

I know Tony a bit.... I don't see him pushing for this.


----------



## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

wileywapati said:


> I know Tony a bit.... I don't see him pushing for this.


I have only spoken to him once, chatted on occasion, and your probably right, my point is more that the "it helps the economy" line is completely useless unless you make your living from the expo, or the hospitality industry around it. It doesn't help 99% of the state. By using his expo I am trying to point out the hypocrisy of that line.

It helps $sfw/mdf, salt lake county, salt lake city, and some restaraunts/hotels in the area. The smaller, and POORER counties where these hunts will take place benefit NOTHING from them. If $fw/mdf really want to "help the economy" put this in Ehpraim, Nephi, Vernal, Richfield, or any of the smaller counties or cities. I mean with all the alpha male hunters that attend am I to believe they can't make due without 5 star accomidations? Sanpete county hosts 10's of thousands nightly for a week during the Mormon Miracle, they can handle the expo, and Ephraim has a runway for the "great white hunters" to fly in their "hunting rigs".

The expo is what it is, a payday to a lobby group($fw/mdf), a wanna be contest for all the guys that fancy themself as the next Doyle, and a pile of money for the area around the salt palace. The DWR can sell the tags without the help(they are doing so right now on their online site), the deer will benefit 10x more from the lack of winter we are having than anything mdf is doing. In short this is simply a party, paid for by the hunters in the state, benefiting a lot of outside the state, and country now, people, who fly in and fly out. The guys in the trenches for $fw will keep doing what they believe in, the leadership will enrich themselves in both money and political power. I don't attend, or support it, but them wanting a party isn't a bad thing, but I just prefer to call it what it is. Its basically the Oscars for dudes with mullets.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Hoss, I don't think you have an unreasonable position here. There are things I also don't like about the expo.


----------



## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

You guys crack me up. Didn't Tony go the the legislators a couple weeks ago and ask for 150,000 to support the new show in Utah county? I'm not saying that's a bad thing but I'd be surprised if he doesn't ask for a couple tags next. Which I have no problem with either.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I think these guys should get all the tags and money they want. 

The only catch being that there is a ROI audit done when it comes to the "conservation" efforts that the money raised is supposed to go to. I mean come on these guys are "conservation" orgs, and that is what this is all about, right? Currently, as the money has gone up, the wildlife has gone down over the last 20 years of this nonsense. Which increases the prices, which drives the demand for them, which also gives no incentive to actually conserve wildlife, only the institutions that have created this system. 

In all fairness, many of the people bidding on these tags probably truly do believe they are helping out. While in all reality they are part of the problem.

With that kind of money being raised, we should be able to conduct the best wildlife science possible, therefor having the best understanding of the problems facing our wildlife, and then have the knowledge and money to do something about it. Securing the future of our wildlife populations, and hunting, for generations to come. 

Why is that not the case? Sorry, that was a rhetorical question to the guys making a salary for selling out our wildlife and us.


----------



## gmanhunter (Dec 27, 2007)

The sad part of all of this is that is alot of money, but for some of these high dollar tags the big boys buy, it's all a tax write off for their buisnesses. I know a person who has told me he spends big money for tags for one simple reason. He said he has to give it to the goverment or spend the big dollars on a tag, writes it off his buisness, and gets to hunt. The big boys do a 1099 form on the guide and get to write off the whole thing. Its great they put the money into the wildlife, but for the average joe, it really sucks.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Trickle down economics at its finest.


----------

