# Grandpa's gun



## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

I inherited a 38 special from my grandfather. To my best estimate it was purchased some time in the 40s or late 30s through the Carbon County Sheriff's Office. I do not recognize the trademark. If anyone could identify the manufacturer I would appreciate some help. You can scroll down to the attached photos or if you are interested in some of the nostalgic history of this gun you can read on. When I was a small boy I was very close to my maternal grandfather and shadowed him everywhere he went. He was a peace officer in the mining camp of Kenilworth, Utah. Back then these "mining camps" were common in Carbon and Emery counties. In these "camps", the mining company literally owned the entire town and provided everything for the employees who lived in the town and worked for the company including housing, stores, recreation and even security. Being owned by the company and not incorporated cities it was common practice for the company to hire a "town Marshal" to keep the peace. So as to have authority they would frequently be deputized by the county sheriff and be paid a nominal salary by the county like a dollar a month just to keep things legal and proper. This was a win-win situation for both the county who got more deputies living in these remote camps reducing response time without increase in budget and the company got an authoritative officer dedicated to their little city. My grandfather was just such an officer. From my earliest recollection he had two 38 special service revolvers one of which he carried everywhere he went. They originally had longer barrels (probably 5 inches) that kept wearing holes in the seat of his truck. So he had the barrels cut down and different grips put on them buy the gunsmith at Wolf's on State Street between 2nd and 3rd south. He made several trips to Salt Lake to get this done as he had to bring them in one at a time so he would have one to carry. I remember coming on these trips with him and on the way home one time he told me that some day these guns would be mine when I was old enough to be responsible for them. I never forgot that promise but never mentioned it to him either, but over the years I came to the conclusion that he had. When we are young we always think we mature faster than we really do, don't we? But on the day I graduated from high school he showed up to attend my graduation and then retired he presented me with a shoe box containing the two 38s, a couple of holsters and the remainder of the ammunition he had left for them. He explained to me that one of the holsters had been hand made by a young man ("friend") while he was doing jail time directly related to my grandfather's job and presented it to my grandfather in gratitude for his help in turning the young man's life around. I have had these guns ever since. One is at my father's home in Kamas. On my next trip I will bring it home to clean it and look it over as I have not seen it in some years. I may have to post a photo of it, too. Recently on the occasion of researching and buying an new 357 magnum I became very interested in the venerable 38 special. (see "38 caliber?" in this same section). My research has turned up some interesting things. Because it was originally designed for black powder the 38 special case is way over sized having plenty of room to be "loaded up" with smokeless powder. So in the early 30s hotter loads were developed specifically for law enforcement. They had many names but I think the most common was the 38-44 high velocity or high speed. Later the case was lengthened to prevent accidental loading in regular 38 special guns and it was called the 357 magnum. It is not the exact same load but the 38-44 HV had very similar ballistics to the 357 mag and was the predecessor of the modern +P ammo. And some heavy framed 38 special revolvers were made again specifically for law enforcement to handle these loads. These guns were manufactured from the early 30s until the middle 60s when 357 magnum guns simply out sold them and they were discontinued. I cannot help wonder if my grandfathers gun might be one of them. Attached are some photos of the trademark and my grandfathers gun compared to my new Taurus 357 magnum. If anyone has any useful information I would appreciate hearing from you.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Cool history; I can appreciate that being a Native Carbon Resident. I am sure that our grandparents knew each other well.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

Thanks for sharing the story about the guns. Sorry I cant help out with identifing the guns I just learned more about the 38s from your story then I knew before.


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## NHS (Sep 7, 2007)

Awesome story campfire. I have carbon in my blood as well.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Oh, I forgot to mention, FWIW, that stamped on the remaining portion of the barrel is, "38 special CTG".


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm having a hard time making out the details in the logo. I can see the "H", but can't make out the other letter. Can you tell what it is? Are there any other marking such as patent dates? Is there any thing on the frame in front of the cylinder under the yoke? such as a model number?


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Loke said:


> I'm having a hard time making out the details in the logo. I can see the "H", but can't make out the other letter. Can you tell what it is? Are there any other marking such as patent dates? Is there any thing on the frame in front of the cylinder under the yoke? such as a model number?
> I'm having a hard time making out the details in the logo. I can see the "H", but can't make out the other letter. Can you tell what it is? Are there any other marking such as patent dates? Is there any thing on the frame in front of the cylinder under the yoke? such as a model number?


I agree, Loke. Even with gun in hand I can't make out other letters in the trademark. I agree that one must be an "H" but if there is another letter or letters they are round letters like O,Q,G,C or opposing Cs or it might not be a letter at all. I was hoping someone could recognize it by sight. There is/was quite a lot of writting etched into the top of the barrel in very small letters but with the barrel cut off and the front sight moved back it is essentially unreadable. I am at work today but I will look again tonight to see if I can find anything under the yoke. Thanks for your interest.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Nice history, good story. I have not heard of that "Town Marshall" arrangement before. The revolver you have pictured appears to be a imported model of so kind. I do not recognize the Trade Mark as a USA maker. One easy way to determine if is of foreign manufacture is to look for a "proof Mark" ...some times several proof marks..stamped on the gun. US makers did not "Proof Mark" their guns. Proof marks are normally small stampings and can be anything from a little lions head to a stylized Eagle to a couple of letters or any combination of the above. At any rate, the gun probably does not have a lot of value ($150 range) beyond the value to you from it being your grandfather's gun. This gun does not show a lot of wear so it would be my guess that the other gun you mentioned was grandfather's favorite.
If you can find any other markings at all on the gun, get a photo and I can probably match it up and at least tell you the origin of manufacture.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

I have some updated information if anyone cares. And I found that some of you guys are pretty smart. With some help from Doug's Shoot N Sports who knew enough to know where to look I found engraved in very small letters on the front of the handle frame between the grips this: "MADE BY ORBEA HNOSIEIBAR-SPAIN". Orbea Hermanos was a manufacturing company who specialized in making revolvers around the turn of the century and early 20th century. So I think the trade mark is an O and an H for Orbea Hermanos. I brought the second of my grandfather's guns down from Kamas and found it to obvioiusly be a Smith and Wesson. See attached photos. I still am unable to find any model names or model numbers but from pictures I have found on the internet I am pretty sure that the Smith and Wesson is an M&P (Military and Police) which Smith and Wesson designated the model 10 when they began assigning model numbers rather than names I think around the early 1950s. I don't think it is a "38-44 Heavy Duty" which became the model 20 or the "outdoors man" with adjustable sights which became the model 23. The Smith and Wesson model 10 is one of the most successful revolvers ever produced. It began production in 1902 and is still in production today. Unencumbered by US patent laws Orbea reproduced a pretty good copy of the model 10. As you can see, they are practically identical in appearance. I remember that because my grandfather had to bring them in one at a time the gunsmith didn't get the barrels exactly the same length. My grandfather was a little upset but I think it just adds to the uniqueness of their history. The hammer also seems a little longer on the Smith and Wesson. Functionally there are a couple of significant differences. The Orbea has a noticeably stiffer hammer spring and double action trigger pull than the SW. Also, I cannot chamber a 357 mag round in the SW but it will chamber perfectly in the Orbea. Because I now have both 38 special and 357 mag ammo in my shooting bag I think that is reason enough to trade guns and take the Orbea back to Kamas when I go. I hope you don't find all of this too tedious and boring.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Open up the cylinder and look where the yoke fits into the frame. That is where my Smiths have the model number and variations stamped. I'm not sure about the older ones, but that is where I'd look.
I would also bet that the Spanish gun has chambers that are bored straight through with no chamber throats. Look into the chambers from the rear of the cylinder and see if you can see a ridge about 1/2 inch from the front.
Here's where you can find out more about your grandpa's gun. I'm not sure if it is worth $50, but that is up to you.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... onId=10504


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Loke said:


> Open up the cylinder and look where the yoke fits into the frame. That is where my Smiths have the model number and variations stamped. I'm not sure about the older ones, but that is where I'd look.
> I would also bet that the Spanish gun has chambers that are bored straight through with no chamber throats. Look into the chambers from the rear of the cylinder and see if you can see a ridge about 1/2 inch from the front.
> Here's where you can find out more about your grandpa's gun. I'm not sure if it is worth $50, but that is up to you.


Thanks Loke! On the frame side opposite the cylinder arm is stamped a number which I presume is a serial number and a "K". On the cylinder arm opposite the frame is the same number and an "S". I can be corrected on this but I think the model 10 was built on the "K" frame while the 38-44 Heavy duty and the "Outdoors man" were built on the "N" frame originally designed for the 44. I do not know what the "S" means.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

campfire said:


> I hope you don't find all of this too tedious and boring.


You got to be kidding. What a great story! Thank you for posting it. I was researching the logo and had some fun trying to figure it out. I only got as far as figuring out that it wasn't American made. So the follow up details are appreciated.

My Grandpa was a miner in Carbon county, and quite the trouble-maker before my he married my Grandma, settled down, found religion and eventually became a Mormon bishop. Who knows, maybe your Grandpa arrested my Grandpa. :wink:


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Thanks Finnegan! Loke, I forgot to mention the chamber "ridges". They are present in the Orbea but they are a fraction of an inch close to the front of the cylinders allowing the longer cased 357 mag to chamber. I have no idea why. :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:


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