# Hmmm, yet another loop hole !?!



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

It seems I've uncovered another one, The Mentor program.

Appears 12 an 13 year old can hunt limited entry and OIAL permits ...

Youth cant apply for these permits til they are 14....
But can fill them on the mentor program .....8)........

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2013/13_general_deer.pdf

Who is eligible:
Young people between the ages of 12 and 17 (at the time of the hunt) may participate in the Utah Hunter Mentoring Program if they possess a Utah Hunter Education number and are Utah residents.
The participating minor must be the child, stepchild, legal ward or grandchild of the permit-holding mentor, or the minor must have a life-threatening illness.

What permits:
All general season, limited entry and once-in-a-lifetime big game permits and all antlerless big game permits are eligible to share.


Any thoughts, Am I inturpiting this correctly?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm OK with that. If Gramps want Junior to shoot his moose, figuring it would mean more to the kid? OK by me. Being 20 years behind in collecting points, kid will never draw anyway.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

GaryFish said:


> I'm OK with that. If Gramps want Junior to shoot his moose, figuring it would mean more to the kid? OK by me. Being 20 years behind in collecting points, kid will never draw anyway.


Me too.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

So...if I let my son shoot my OIL moose....can he shoot another moose if he drew his own tag later on?


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

gdog said:


> So...if I let my son shoot my OIL moose....can he shoot another moose if he drew his own tag later on?


As far as I understand it right now, yes.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Theoretically, yes. Realistically, no. Any kid now is at least 20 points behind the HUGE backlog of people that have been applying. Heck, I have 10 points, and don't figure I'll draw until 2237. And by that time, I could have bought a CMWU hunt, or paid to go hunt Alaska or Canada. Several times. If shooting a moose is THAT important, there are plenty of options available to me.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Doesn't need to be moose..used that as just an example....pick another OIL species that has enough tags to have regular and bonus tags to be drawn....in which case they could get grandpa's tag and one of their own down the road.

Understand the likely hood is extremely slim...but it would still be allowed.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

And the other thing - the older I get, the more satisfaction I get from seeing my children do things, than doing them myself - even opportunities that I never had. I would take far more joy guiding my son or daughter on a moose hunt that shooting one myself. But that's just me.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

*"So...if I let my son shoot my OIL moose....can he shoot another moose if he drew his own tag later on"?*

Looks like a kid could shoot quite a few if he had lucky grandparents and parents, he/she could shoot mom's, dad's, step mom or dad, g-ma on moms side, g-pa on dad's side, step g-ma, step g-pa, etc. etc.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I think the division has been influenced by the church and they're using Noah's lifespan to define the term "once in a lifetime."


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

bowgy said:


> *"So...if I let my son shoot my OIL moose....can he shoot another moose if he drew his own tag later on"?*
> 
> Looks like a kid could shoot quite a few if he had lucky grandparents and parents, he/she could shoot mom's, dad's, step mom or dad, g-ma on moms side, g-pa on dad's side, step g-ma, step g-pa, etc. etc.


If a kid's family has that kind of luck, they need to spend a week or two in Vegas.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

GaryFish said:


> If a kid's family has that kind of luck, they need to spend a week or two in Vegas.


I know of a couple of families that have had that kind of luck. A husband and wife that have drawn ever OIL tag that they have put in for.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So I guess that means their grand-kids are plumb out of luck! ;-)


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> It seems I've uncovered another one, The Mentor program.
> 
> Appears 12 an 13 year old can hunt limited entry and OIAL permits ...
> 
> ...


You just now uncovered it? Frankly, I'm surprised! This is just one of the unintended consequences we'll "uncover" as this program goes forward. My thoughts? I give this program maybe 5 years before it's abandoned.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> I give this program maybe 5 years before it's abandoned.


Haha, Funny stuff---- Just like opt 2 is going away? Right.....

IMO, It will be one of the MOST popular programs EVER from the buzz I'm hearing....
EVERY ONE I've talked to about this program (away from this forum) Love's IT!!!! ....

AND, Will help force law changes to allow 12-13 yr olds to apply/possess
LE and OIAL permits------- Once again, wait and see...


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I think too many of you are hung up on who get's to pull the trigger. The key in this is the tag holder. That does not change. It's still grandpa's tag, no matter who pulls the trigger. It's not Junior's tag, nor is it Junior's animal. It's still grandpa's no matter whether Junior, or Junior Junior pulls the trigger.

Whether Junior draws a tag for that same OIL tag later in life is irrelevant. Whether or not Junior get's to pull the trigger for grandma the next year is irrelevant. The tag owner is still the tag owner, and that doesn't change.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Haha, Funny stuff---- Just like opt 2 is going away? Right.....
> 
> IMO, It will be one of the MOST popular programs EVER from the buzz I'm hearing....
> EVERY ONE I've talked to about this program (away from this forum) Love's IT!!!! ....
> ...


You asked for our thoughts, not our approval. Or did you? (Or were you just looking for someone to laugh at?)

I'm not surprised to hear you claim EVERYONE (away from this forum) you've talked to loves it. You're just now figuring out some of the unintended consequences and I suspect most of them hadn't even heard about it until the printed proclamation came out or until you asked them about it. And, of course, it hasn't even been implemented yet. Lots of ideas look good on paper or in the beginning, but later are shown to be a can of worms. I think this is one of those ideas. You don't.

Wait and see? That's all any of us can do.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> It seems I've uncovered another one, The Mentor program.


I don't think you uncovered anything....maybe you just had your first epiphany in life, but you haven't found a loophole. I believe the new mentor program is set up to do just what you explained...give people the opportunity to allow young people to shoot an animal with their tag!

So, exactly what have you uncovered?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I like this program. There are a few changes I would have made to the rule, but overall I like it. 

One thing I really wish they would have done is make the original tag holder transfer the tag if they wanted to participate. Either keep your tag and hunt, or transfer it and mentor. No sitting on the fence where both get to hunt. 

My oldest is 5 years away from being eligible. But this much I know, my kids will get my deer tag every year they don't draw one under this program. By the time they are all teenagers I may not pull the trigger on a deer for a decade as I rotate through them all when they don't draw. I'm okay with that.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

EFA, WtoU,, I din't just "figure out OR uncover" anything .....

Go back and read the origainal mentor thread...I pointed out this possibility.
( This is were the discovery took pace--months ago ..)

I waited until it has been finalized, and printed in guidebooks and on the DWR
web site to point out the loophole-----
With some planning , my youngest will be hunting LE when he turns 12..;-)..


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

What loophole? I don't see any? I think the mentor program is set up how it was planned....


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

HMMMMM,

Maybe I should call it something diiferent than a loophole..??
I've got it! should have called it this:
New oppertunity for 12 and 13 year olds to hunt LE & OIAL permits ..

That better WtoU?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

sure...wasn't that the intention of the mentoring program? To allow older hunters the opportunity to mentor young hunters by allowing them to fill their LE or OIL tag?

It may be a "new" opportunity for 12 and 13 year old kids, but wasn't that the whole point?


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

utahgolf said:


> I think the division has been influenced by the church and they're using Noah's lifespan to define the term "once in a lifetime."


Did you not know that Utah is a church state, i mean steak?


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

Is there a minimum age for the mentor? I have a daughter who doesn't care to hunt, but likes to hike along with us. So if she were to draw a tag, could her younger brother shoot it now?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

This DWR link should answer all your queastons:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in...nting/1332-utah-hunter-mentoring-program.html


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## outdoorser (Jan 14, 2013)

So before biting my head off for not finding this in one of the many threads on the subject of hunter mentor program, just hear my questions out.
1. I just read the DWR link that goofy put up, and could not figure out if the minor COULD harvest two antlered deer in the same year if they were different season. For example, what if the minor got an archery buck deer tag, filled it, then using the hunter mentor program filled a rifle buck deer tag 2 months later? Is that legal??
2. the other question is, what does this mean? 
"To participate, the adult mentor must apply (in person or by mail) for both himself or herself and the participating minor."

Just trying to get all of this strait now that the draw is open


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

From the link:

In Utah, it is illegal to possess more than one big game permit for antlered animals of the same species. So, if a minor has multiple permits available, the mentor and minor must choose which permit they want the minor to hunt with and surrender the other.
*Example 1*: A 14-year-old boy with a permit to hunt buck deer cannot share his mother's permit for buck deer until they have surrendered the son's permit. (He cannot possess more than one buck deer permit in a single season.)
*Example 2*: A 15-year-old girl who has a permit to hunt antlerless deer can keep her permit and also share her father's permit for buck deer. (She can possess both permits because only one is for an antlered animal.)
If a minor wants to surrender a permit so he or she can participate in the Mentoring Program, that surrender will occur as part of the program's application process.

To participate in the Utah Hunter Mentoring Program, the mentor must apply (in person or by mail) at a Division of Wildlife Resources office at least 10 business days before he or she wants to begin sharing a permit. Please return to this page in June 2014 for more information on how to apply


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

outdoorser brings up a good question. In addition to his questions how many deer could a youth shoot in one year? Can the youth shoot all of his grandparents deer? Can he/she shoot only one per year or is it unlimited?


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> From the link:
> 
> In Utah, it is illegal to possess more than one big game permit for antlered animals of the same species. So, if a minor has multiple permits available, the mentor and minor must choose which permit they want the minor to hunt with and surrender the other.
> *Example 1*: A 14-year-old boy with a permit to hunt buck deer cannot share his mother's permit for buck deer until they have surrendered the son's permit. (He cannot possess more than one buck deer permit in a single season.)
> ...


I thought with this program the original tag holder still keeps POSSESSION of his tag while mentoring? If this is the case the minor is not in POSSESSION of 2 antlered tags?


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## grunt_smacker (Sep 7, 2007)

Will this make more people start putting in for those family members who do not really want to hunt, but would be willing to let a youngster fill their tag for them?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

grunt_smacker said:


> Will this make more people start putting in for those family members who do not really want to hunt, but would be willing to let a youngster fill their tag for them?


This will make people start putting in family members who don't even know they are being put in the draw. Draw odds just got a lot worse for everyone.

A Mt Goat unit my wife's been putting in for has only 3 tags. If 1 person who is ahead of her that was planning to drop out due to health or ages reasons now decides to stay in it and just give the tag to a kid, EVERYONE else will see the buttplug worsen.

If tag numbers remain constant, draw odds get better for only 2 reasons: People ahead of you draw, or they quit. A lot of people quit due to health reasons. This change eliminated that reason as they can just give the tag to a kid.

-DallanC


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> This will make people start putting in family members who don't even know they are being put in the draw. Draw odds just got a lot worse for everyone.


But, that person would still have to go on the hunt! They can't just give their tag away and stay home. They must be present on the hunt. 
Further, in order to be put in for the draw they must have a hunting license. It's not like grandma Betty that's never hunted a day in her life, is bound to a wheelchair, and has a documented case of both Parkinson's and Alzheimer's is all of a sudden going to draw a tag and be able to hand it over to Junior. She's going to have to hike to the top of that mountain with Junior when he pulls the trigger!!



DallanC said:


> A Mt Goat unit my wife's been putting in for has only 3 tags. If 1 person who is ahead of her that was planning to drop out due to health or ages reasons now decides to stay in it and just give the tag to a kid, EVERYONE else will see the buttplug worsen.


Again, even if that person has health or age issues, THEY STILL HAVE TO BE PRESENT ON THE HUNT!



DallanC said:


> If tag numbers remain constant, draw odds get better for only 2 reasons: People ahead of you draw, or they quit. A lot of people quit due to health reasons. This change eliminated that reason as they can just give the tag to a kid.
> 
> -DallanC


Again, they still have to be present on the hunt! Regardless of age, illness, etc., they have to be there when the kid pulls the trigger! That tells me that nothing will change.

It's a MENTOR program. A mentor is someone with experience. A trusted adviser. Someone who trains and advises. It's a good thing for our youth. Obviously, some will abuse it -- but those same abusers are already abusing the existing system by putting in their grandma's, mom's, uncles, step-2nd-cousin's, etc. They're already doing this! That won't change. Your odds aren't going to get any worse.


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