# North Slope..... pine beetle



## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

I had a vacation to the north slope this last week. It had been two yrs since i had last been to this part of the Uintas. WOW i was shocked at the devastation of the forest. such a sad loss to see the trees almost all dead! the forest service has stated that 90% of the trees are dead and anything over an 8 inch diameter will die. **** bug killed them all...










this photo was taken just west of china meadows.
the one thing i am amazed about is there hasnt been a fire. because there is a TON of kindling ready to get a fire going really good!


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Stuff like that makes me sad but I guess it is part of mother natures cycle.


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## gitterdone81 (Sep 3, 2009)

Dang - I love that area, it was a nice area to be. I haven't been there for about two years, and I think then it was just pockets. Maybe it will take a fire to kill off the beetle.


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## Kingfisher (Jul 25, 2008)

we frame our perspective of things based on what we come to expect as "normal" or the way things are 'supposed to be'. take the north slope - from 1850 thru 1940, this area was logged to death to provide railroad ties... 3000 ties per mile, 650 miles of track to the sierras, one track, no creosote, ties wore out every 10 years, more tracks were made east/west and north south. we were resting one day at blacks fork commissary - an old gentleman pulled up and said i bet you dont know what this place is. i said, blacks fork commisary. he said, i lived here as a kid in the 20's. this forest used to be douglass fir, spruce and aspens with some lodgepole pine. we logged all the doug fir and spruce. this place doesnt look at all what it looked like in the 20's - all this ratty nasty lodgepole pine. native american burning... fires were common back then, every 20 to 30 years which produces a forest of primarily larger, mature trees with fewer small trees and a forest one can walk thru, see thru with more understory, more grass, forbs and brush. in the 20's, 20 to 30 million acres of forest would burn annually, now with smokey bear, we have 2 to 5 million per year burn. with the advent of the environmental movement in the 60's, the decline of logging and the demise of forest fires, we now have a forest with up to 200 trees per acre from a forest that may have had as few as 10 trees per acre back then.

here is the analogy - you have 10 men on the edge of a desert and water for 5. if you send all 10, how many men die? the answer is all 10. if you send five, how many survive? likely all five. with the current state of the forest (fully 50% to 70% of all trees are less than 100 years old with a huge percentage less than 50 years old) you have way more trees than can be sustained. the little drought we had from 1999 to 2004 was severe in some contexts, but piddly in context of 1000 years of history, a healthy forest could have easily sustained that drought which led to the pine beetle, spruce bud worm, and other insects devastating the forest. currently, utah has 5 million acres of timber land, fully 1 million acres are currently standing dead and the total may reach 2 million. this is partly a natural occurrence, lodgepole pine is a species that cycles in this manner, but it is also a management issue. you can manage a forest and that means either you burn it or you log it... one of the two. or you can let mother nature manage it for you... the environmeltalists preferred method and this is what you get... 10 dead men in the desert. all the trees die. go down to seven mile up above farnsworth lake. on one side you have a 50% thinned forest and the pine beetle damage is there, but the forest looks good. on the other side, you have no treatment and virtually a standing dead forest. lawsuits and the unwise part of the environmental movement (not all are complicit) have brought you this tradegy. a healthy forest, while sustaining some damage, would not have had this level of mortality. log it or burn it fellers. those are the options to a healthy forest.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

man that sucks big time. I hate those dam bugs.


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

Interesting addition Kf, nicely put.


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## Kingfisher (Jul 25, 2008)

ps - fire doesnt really eliminate the beetle infestation, fire typically comes as a result of the standing dead. by the time the forest is dead, the beetles are off attacking another live section of forest which we try to save by putting the fire out. bug killing typically takes -30 degrees for about a week in winter, kills the overwintering eggs, etc.

on another note, think about the 1980's yellowstone fire - inho, one of the best things that hit yellowstone. allowed a huge increase in wildlife numbers and diversity. this could also be a very good thing for areas of utah, hopefully get some aspen regeneration, kill and thin the lodgepole (preferably not 100% kill, although that is more the norm than exception) and bring some health back to the remaning forest. problem is, as has been noted, standing dead makes a real mess and fire hazard. lodgepole has a seratinous cone, opens with fire. aspen regenerate from root after fire, giving them a little leg up on the trees from seed, but a little management, and we could have some very nice forests again with a balance between fir, spruce, lodgepole and aspen.


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

kingfisher,
thats a very good perspective on the issue. thank you! it seems the forest service can hardly do anything because of its own bureaucracy and the pressure/lawsuits from the special interest groups/enviros. never thought of how that forest doesnt have very much fir or spruce.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Another theory I've heard recently is that global warming is keeping the beetles alive because it's not getting cold enough on average to kill them off. They survive now when they used to 90% winter kill and the result is more beetles living through the winter and more trees dieing in the summer. Who really knows...


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

tex,
the forest service was stating that climate change was a major player in the epidemic. i am not on board with this climate change crap(at least politically)... but if temps could hold around -30 for a few days they stated that it would kill bugs. also if temps got to -40 for about a 12 hour period it would do the same thing.


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## nickpan (May 6, 2008)

I'm not on with the global warming crap either. Its just the cycles of our planet. Like stated above, i agree that it has gotten this way because of environmentalists wanting to keep it "natural" and "beautiful" without letting fires, logging or any other real natural factors playing out their role. Global warming an climate change is just an ignorant excuse. The tree huggin forest savers are the last ones that want to be blamed for their ignorant mistakes. 

Some little kid needs to go play with matches. Bad.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm surprised we haven't had some huge fire up there in the Uintas... with all the dead standing timber and all the deadfall around there, that place is a **** tinderbox waiting to be lit. If it helps the forest regrow healthier, maybe its time for a good natural fire or something.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm a little kid, will someone buy me some matchs??????


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## nickpan (May 6, 2008)

I'll buy you a box of matches and pay for your gas (vehicle and whatever else you need it for....wink wink)

It would suck for quite a few years put it definetly needs to burn to the ground.


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## muleydeermaniac (Jan 17, 2008)

The last large fire I remember up in the uintas was by browne lake in the 80's. The forest around there is great! It has a good mix of quakies and pine!


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Mojo1 said:


> I'm a little kid, will someone buy me some matchs??????





nickpan said:


> I'll buy you a box of matches and pay for your gas (vehicle and whatever else you need it for....wink wink)
> 
> It would suck for quite a few years put it definetly needs to burn to the ground.


Pretty generous offer  
This is what the last one cost :shock: 
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/ ... m=storylhs

Too bad when they get going they burn so hot. Controlled burns are a good thing. Even letting natural fires burn is good until it comes back to bite them on the a$$ like last year down by Hurricane.


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## nickpan (May 6, 2008)

middlefork said:


> Mojo1 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a little kid, will someone buy me some matchs??????
> ...


I'm just payin for an day out in the hills, what he does with those matches and gas is his deal :mrgreen:


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## Kingfisher (Jul 25, 2008)

speaking of matches, little kids, etc - good example is the boy scout fire that started on east fork of the bear near the scout camp (by scouts) and ran all the way to west fork of blacks fork. the fire area is looking really good now after a few years. getting some aspen regeneration, opened the crown up, lots of brush and grass - while it was a 'tradegy' at the time, it looks better today than ever. would look even better if more of the charred trunks blew over. the problem with fires now is there are soooo many trees that we get crown fires that burn everything top to bottom instead of fires that creep along the ground, kill little trees and brush, leaving the large trees intact. personally, i am all in favor of good, nicely timed, controlled burns and over large areas. late fall, early winter if conditions are right, burn more, log more, hunt more.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

It's bad. If you get up on the crest of the Uintas, anywhere from Fox Lake over to Mt Wilson you can get a view of how bad it really is....Well, in August of 2009, anyway....I will be back up in 3 weeks though  

I think the last big fire on the North Slope was the 2002 East Fork Fire. If you are, or were, involved in scouting you would remember it. BSA was supposed to pay the firefighting bill: $13+ million. Much of the money spent to fight the fire was used trying to keep it away from all the summer homes in Manor Lands, Christmas Meadows, and other developments, full of Commie pony-tailed enviromentalists I'm sure, skirting the Wasatch Forest. Also, there were a couple of smaller fires that year on the North Slope. Now, they are all good places to pick mushrooms. :lol: 

Beetle damage wasn't too bad then, 2002, nothing like it is today, but the fire still burned so hot it melted glass bottles and aluminum beer cans along the parking lot at the trailhead. The forest there is recovering quickly, aspens mostly, the lodgepole pine seeds were burnt too bad to regenerate, very unusual. If you walk the trail today, the USFS has interesting interpretive signs along the boardwalk explaining the fire and the rebirth of the forest.

As long as there are homes and personal property adjacent to US Forest land an attempt will be made to control forest fires around them.

Lastly, there are parts of Yellowstone National Park severly burnt in the 1988 fires; patches of Lodgepole Pine miles long that are nearly inpenetrable, like phrag out in the marsh. 12-foot tall saplings and deadfalls were starting to pinch the trails close in many places. The Lodgepole Pine had taken over in many parts of the park due in large part to decades of fire suppression. In some places the fire temperatures were ideal for lodgepole pine seeds to "pop" out of the cones assisting germination and I think every seed took off. I hiked across Yellowstone Park from west to east in 2002 and seen it first hand.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

middlefork said:


> Pretty generous offer
> This is what the last one cost :shock:
> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/ ... m=storylhs
> 
> Too bad when they get going they burn so hot. Controlled burns are a good thing. Even letting natural fires burn is good until it comes back to bite them on the **** like last year down by Hurricane.


Excellent infomation, now I can plan on having a scapegoat for the fire! :twisted:

I don't think the goverment should be responsible for paying for those houses/structures that are built up in those areas that burn, you knew it could happen when you bought it.

Same for those idiots that build next to the river or right on the beach then expect a taxpayer handout when something happens. You need to buy your own insurance, if you can't afford it, I guess you don't need the house/structure. period!


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Id like like to see most of it go up in smoke if I new it would burn it all but it has to burn it all. When I saw what yellowstone looked like 10 years after its fire. I thought it was a bigger mess. logs laying all over the place and new growth pine trees all around the dead ones. Im talking a worse mess then it was originally. 

I hate pine trees. They suck just as bad as junipers do for mule deer/elk habitat!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not so sure this is a bad thing. Just nature responding to the conditions at hand. Blame global warning if you like, but I'm thinking fire suppression and the anti-logging lobby has had a lot to do with the current situation. Whatever the case, these beetles are forcing our hand. Either we log, as a couple other western states have already decided to do, or watch it burn. Since thick stands of conifers don't offer much by way of habitat to anything other than squirrels, I think thinning these stands is a good thing.

From a purely selfish perspective as a deer hunter, I think Utah's deer herds are pretty much at capacity. I just heard the DWR say the same thing a couple days ago. Removing all these conifers will increase mule deer habitat which in turn might increase capacity. So bring those little bugs on.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

is this going to mess things up for the elk and deer hunting up there?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

if someone gets that fire going, he*l yes it will, otherwise it not gonna change much this year.


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

We, as Humans, love to play the blame game. So far on this topic it is the pine beetles fault, the environmentalists, mismanagement of the forests, global warming, did I miss any?....Obama/Bush/Reagan/Carter?
It is part of Human nature to place blame. I think we do that because it makes us feel less guilty for the role we may have in it. After all we have been placing blame since the beginning. Adam said it was because of the woman, the woman said it was because of the serpent.
Placing blame only works if it helps us to understand causal relationships, and the problem. From understanding comes knowledge, and possible solutions.
The problem in the Uintas/Yellowstone is monoculture. Thousands of acres of basically one kind of tree - lodgepole pines just ripe for the picking of the pine beetle.
Imagine what would happen to the world food supply if some pestilence was to hit the corn or wheat belts, after all, they are monocultures too.....thousands and thousands of acres of straight corn, or straight wheat. The solution right now to keep pestilences away from the corn and wheat (because they are there...waiting) is to dump millions of gallons of chemicals on them.
So, what is the solution for the lodgepole pine forests? If we, as Humans, relied on pine trees directly for food you can bet we would be dumping all kinds of chemicals into the forests. 
We don't eat trees, so, we must come up with other solutions. Fire is natures way of treating the problem, logging is mans way. Since everything in the wild must be managed in todays world it would be best as Kingfisher and others have suggested to use a combination of the two approaches. How to implement the solutions? Controlled burns? They do work. Clear cut logging vs. selective cut logging? Not sure in this case which would be best.
How to keep it from happening again in the future? In the case of wheat and corn (agriculture) growers who don't want to dump all kinds of chemicals onto their crops must avoid monocultures. They block their crops....a few acres of corn over there....a few acres of wheat over here...a few acres of beans there, etc., etc. In other words they don't put all their" eggs into one basket". Actually not so hard to do because every year there is a new generation.
With forests it is a different ballgame becuase the generations are in the 100's of years instead of every year. Still, I believe the answer is the same, avoid monoculture of one kind of tree in the forest. Not an easy thing to do mainly because we wouldn't reap the results in our lifetime, and feasibly there would have to be a mass undertaking to plant, spruce, fir, douglas fir. In other words mix the forest up to make it more difficult for the pine beetle to jump around in the forests. Who foots that bill???
Random thoughts.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

That Naturalist fellar's got a good point! What do you do? Step in and try to man-handle Mother Nature? I don't know.
I was pretty sore when they logged my favorite whitetail hunting ridge up in Northern Idaho a few years back. It was solid Western Red Ceder and Douglas Fir, nothing else. No undergrowth except moss and ferns. Boy they sure messed this place up I thought. But last November proved to be the best hunting I've seen up there for a lot of years. Lots of snowberry, rose bushes, Western Larch, young firs and cedars, River Birch, blackberrys and Mountain Ash. The place was alive again!
I'd rather see someone log the doomed timber than let it go to waste. Lightning or logging, either one might bring this place back to a diverse habitat again.
Just my 2 cents, Chuck.


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## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

KingFisher, great post. Great explanation.

Global warming? It's nothing but political.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

If everything's lined up just right in a forest fire Lodgepole Pine will rejuvenate into a jungle like this:









Global warming? whatever

Local warming? Yep, the winters have become warmer on the North Slope.

I have hiked the North Slope for nearly 30 years. In that tiny sliver of time I have made these observations:
> I noticed pine beetle damage and subsequent fires south of Evanston starting in the early 80s (Whitney Fire) The damage spread east-to-west along the North Slope; to the east at an alarming rate and scope.
Conifers have had longer growing season; grow more per year.
> The range of Lodgepole Pine is quickly advancing "up-slope".
> Treeline is quickly advancing up-slope.

The USFS in Evanston claims there's 211,000 acres of pine beetle damage in their district (North Slope). 40% of that acreage has been put out for logging. Some have made it tough for logging companies to make a living. The three close-to-the-North Slope sawmills, Kamas UT, Mountain View WY, and Evanston WY, are running at capacity.

see: http://www.bridgervalleypioneer.com/v2_ ... 46&page=77

If I had trunkload of money and was a little younger, I would start a papermill in Evanston....make cardboard (white paper takes a lot of chemicals). Generate steam by burning slashings and sawmill trimmings, even pallets, in what is called a "hog-fuel" boiler. Use that steam to make paper; and the excess steam would make electricity that could easily be put on the grid through the big power line interchange close to Evanston's sawmill. I think the timing is right.

just dreamin'


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I know what the beetles are, but I'm not sure where they came from. Are they a native species or introduced?


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

Here is the wiky link for some info if anyone wants to read it.

Bax they are native.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_pine_beetle


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Does any body want to go and have a bom fire and roast hot days and hamburgers up there.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

cklspencer said:


> Here is the wiky link for some info if anyone wants to read it.
> 
> Bax they are native.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_pine_beetle


Thanks for the information. I really didnt know much about them


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