# Expo Bid - Have I lost my mind?



## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

Well I had mentioned it in a couple threads and talked with some other guys about it. I am in the beginning stages of putting together a non-profit to make a run at the Hunt Expo bid.

I have reached out to and will be meeting with a few big industry companies that have experience in events, tag draws, and those sort of things. 

What I really want this to be is a Utah based grassroots sportsman group. With enough support and pressure from locals on the ground here i feel like that is the way to go. Get control back over our tags and conservation dollars

I don't want to take any kind of salary on this or have any paid staff for that matter. My ultimate plan would be to use any of the funds made from the event itself to buy up private land adjacent to public lands here in UT and open them to access for all. Or something along those lines. Also big conservation projects and things alongside DWR.

First order of business is to break down the bid process and why RMEF lost the last one, and have a bid that cannot be refused.


Anyways, feedback would be highly appreciated, and anyone willing to help as well. I will need all the help i can get.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

They lost because the dwr said that the sfw owns the expo so you would need to create your own venue to challenge for the tag allocation. That's correct the deck has been stacked for sfw to never lose 

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I genuinely wish you luck, and who knows what the next 8 years will bring, but you have chosen a nigh-impossible hill to climb. The primary excuse I think that was relied on to justify awarding SFW the current contract (with the option for a 5yr renewal I think) was that RMEF didn't demonstrate its historical ability to successfully host the hunting expo in UT as well as SFW (think about that, yes it is absurd). So unless you can somehow host the expo in Utah before you bid, I don't think you'll get off the ground.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation couldn't even win the bid.
That says it all.............!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

This "Expo thing" IMO has turned into a rich mans get together. It's sad to see our state wildlife that is suppose to be for the residents/non residents, being thrown to big money, and private property owners. I cringe to think what the hunting will become in 10-15 years.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation couldn't even win the bid.
> That says it all.............!


This.

The depth of the corruption, to show how rigged this really is: *Remember the RMEF submitted their proposal by the required date. The SFW did NOT submit their proposal by that date. *

Right there, by default the RMEF should have been awarded the contract. They applied, SFW did not.

But, DWR officials scrambled, extended the application date, allowed SFW to submit their proposal... and then subsequently won the bid.

Its completely and undeniably rigged. RMEF should *IMO* have filed a lawsuit on it... but they took the high road and decided not to fight it out in the mud with the swine.

-DallanC


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

DallanC said:


> This.
> 
> The depth of the corruption, to show how rigged this really is: *Remember the RMEF submitted their proposal by the required date. The SFW did NOT submit their proposal by that date. *
> 
> ...


Do we have any lawyers here who would help with that if we lose? haha


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

I think you need to first raise a ton of money just to cover the bribe’s you will have to pay out.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

More than one road to Rome. RMEF event in Park City does a number of things that lay groundwork. If they repeat a couple years it will have attendance and economic impact numbers. They have a number of local organizations and companies involved; including Total Archery folks who are down south. 

Join RMEF if you are not already a member and attend. My boy is coming home from Dallas and I'm really looking forward to it.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

jebuwh said:


> Do we have any lawyers here who would help with that if we lose? haha


You have no hope of trying to compete. The next time the contract comes up is what, 8 or 10 years from now? SFW locked it up for a very long time...

I know someone who is related to someone (that's as specific as I can get without Dox'ing him and getting him in trouble) on the SFW that runs the convention, he gets to work the "back room deals". He said what goes on on the main floor is absolutely nothing compared to the huge number of $1,000,000 to $10,000,000+ deals going on in the back rooms. The places the common joe's aren't allowed, or even know exist.

I wouldn't be surprised if the SFW is handling $100,000,000 in deals every year. I think there is a very valid reason they absolutely refuse to open their books to the public.

Who here knows the Jeff Foxworthy buck hunt fiasco that went on a few years back? LOLzz...

-DallanC


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

DallanC said:


> The next time the contract comes up is what, 8 or 10 years from now?


This is correct. The way things were set up, SFW basically has the contract for 8 more years. Once RMEF declined litigation, the issue became almost untouchable until then.

Good luck in your efforts, but I don't see much that can be done in the immediate term.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

+1 to everything already said. I applaud your desire. But it is akin to starting up a new football league to challenge the NFL.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

DallanC said:


> I know someone who is related to someone (that's as specific as I can get without Dox'ing him and getting him in trouble) on the SFW that runs the convention, he gets to work the "back room deals". He said what goes on on the main floor is absolutely nothing compared to the huge number of $1,000,000 to $10,000,000+ deals going on in the back rooms. The places the common joe's aren't allowed, or even know exist.
> 
> -DallanC


Keep in mind...the expo tag draws are held by a person hired by SFW to do the draw in his basement, not the same group that does Utah's draws.

Is it all fair and on the up and up? I don't know. And that is the problem. We should never even have the chance to ask that question.


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

So I have been thinking the same thoughts as all of you. Believe me. I feel like it is exactly like starting a new football league. But i feel like i have to try.

I have spoken with both of my State reps about looking into the whole deal, hasn't gone all that far. If we were to get large public support for an investigation into the whole situation, would that do anything?

There is a solution to every problem, this one happens to be extremely difficult. I just feel like with enough hell being raised on the ground here in Utah by the people paying the bills, something will have to change.


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

DallanC said:


> You have no hope of trying to compete. The next time the contract comes up is what, 8 or 10 years from now? SFW locked it up for a very long time...
> 
> I know someone who is related to someone (that's as specific as I can get without Dox'ing him and getting him in trouble) on the SFW that runs the convention, he gets to work the "back room deals". He said what goes on on the main floor is absolutely nothing compared to the huge number of $1,000,000 to $10,000,000+ deals going on in the back rooms. The places the common joe's aren't allowed, or even know exist.
> 
> ...


That's insane. Unfortunately not surprising. I feel like all of that needs to be exposed.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Keep in mind...the expo tag draws are held by a person hired by SFW to do the draw in his basement, not the same group that does Utah's draws.


I'm not talking the draw... I'm talking the huge brokered hunt deals going on in the back room.

How much do you think George W Bush's Utah Elk hunt 6 or so years ago cost? Of course it was paid for by lobbyists... and big corps with deeeeeeep pockets.

That kind of stuff.



> Is it all fair and on the up and up? I don't know. And that is the problem. We should never even have the chance to ask that question.


+ 1,000,000

-DallanC


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

jebuwh said:


> *I have spoken with both of my State reps *about looking into the whole deal, hasn't gone all that far. If we were to get large public support for an investigation into the whole situation, would that do anything?
> 
> There is a solution to every problem, this one happens to be extremely difficult. I just feel like with enough hell being raised on the ground here in Utah by the people paying the bills, something will have to change.


Before you go too far with your reps, check out their donor lists. That will help you know how far that investigation will go. The amount of money that state reps and senators get "donated" is insane and will surprise you when you see where it comes from. And that doesn't even address the "soft donations" that go their way.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

DallanC said:


> I'm not talking the draw... I'm talking the huge brokered hunt deals going on in the back room.
> 
> How much do you think George W Bush's Utah Elk hunt 6 or so years ago cost? Of course it was paid for by lobbyists... and big corps with deeeeeeep pockets.
> 
> ...


I gathered that, but many feel like those same deals result in expo tag draws too. I'll be interested to see where a certain person draws this year...


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> I gathered that, but many feel like those same deals result in expo tag draws too. I'll be interested to see where a certain person draws this year...


Did I see that this year they will no longer publicly post who was drawn for the state tags?
Nothing to see here just move along people.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I haven’t heard that, but it seriously wouldn’t surprise me even mildly. 

Why wouldn’t they take that behind the cloak as well?


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

No, results will still be posted.

Q: When will the successful applicants be notified?
A: Results of the 200 permit drawing will be posted on the website before the end of February 2019. All successful applicants are verified through the Interstate Wildlife Violator Compact.

link: https://huntexpo.com/facts-faqs/


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

jebuwh said:


> So I have been thinking the same thoughts as all of you. Believe me. I feel like it is exactly like starting a new football league. But i feel like i have to try.
> 
> I have spoken with both of my State reps about looking into the whole deal, hasn't gone all that far. If we were to get large public support for an investigation into the whole situation, would that do anything?
> 
> There is a solution to every problem, this one happens to be extremely difficult. I just feel like with enough hell being raised on the ground here in Utah by the people paying the bills, something will have to change.


We tried. When RMEF submitted a bid it had huge support from a ton of people. We were making call talking to people and trying every thing to help RMEF succeed.

But what happened is the state showed their hand and didn't care. By awarding SFW the bid and down playing the relevance of RMEF and it's supporters. They proved it is rigged


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

The best thing us peasants could do to combat this expo corruption is to take a principled stand and boycott the whole thing. No attending the expo, no applying for expo tags, simply do not feed the monster. Do you think us $25 tag buying knuckleheads have the integrity to do that? Not with a 1 in umpteen thousand chance of drawing a LE or OIL big game tag at stake! People are apathetic and have short memories. All the dudes you see raging about a certain commercial on the air right now will be back to shaving with Gillette razors before you know it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

One lacks integrity if they want a chance to hunt in Utah so they utilize all the opportunities to do so? 

Wow...


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> One lacks integrity if they want a chance to hunt in Utah so they utilize all the opportunities to do so?
> 
> Wow...


Eh, don't read too much into what I wrote. I'm right along with everybody else in selling my soul to the devil for a less than 1% chance at drawing a tag. I'm not up on a moral high horse looking down on those who I perceive to lack integrity. If you notice, my post uses the word "us" quite a bit which implies that I'm lumping myself in with everybody else. You can't deny that if you, I, and everybody else would make a stand and say, "eff you, corrupt buggers, we're not playing your game anymore!" that it could bring about change. "WE" aren't going to do that though, so they will keep getting away with it.


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

All the replies are appreciated. I know it's next to impossible, but I've been so bothered by this whole deal since i first learned about it all it won't let me stop.

We really need to get the whole bid and contract award process changed from the ground up. More oversight, more public input, less ability for corruption and backdoor crap. 
Maybe that is the route I need to take rather than letting the current corrupted process screw everybody else.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

jebuwh said:


> Maybe that is the route I need to take rather than letting the current corrupted process screw everybody else.


No, step 1 is getting elected Governor. Then you have the power to swap out board members... then and only then can you start working on changing things.

-DallanC


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

DallanC said:


> No, step 1 is getting elected Governor. Then you have the power to swap out board members... then and only then can you start working on changing things.
> 
> -DallanC


Alright lets do it! 
But really, why can't we get a qualified person who is also a Sportsman to run? With the backing of even half of the states hunters and fishermen, we should easily be able to get someone elected. I mean I'll run but I don't think my experience level qualifies me for anything.


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## robiland (Jan 20, 2008)

Hey, so the Lawyer that worked on the bid for RMEF frequents this site quite a bit. He is my bro in law. I will make sure he sees this and he will probably chime in. His user name is Hawkeye.

I know that there was some very corrupt things that went on with the whole bid thing. I hope that it comes out one of these days, SOON.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RMEF was the only group that had standing to do anything about this in the courts, and they likely had a very good argument to take there. They made a decision that they did not want to engage in litigation over this. I'm sure they had good reasons for that, including trying to not burn bridges going forward. 

Really, this whole ordeal sucks. Until the SFW rule is removed from the Wildlife Board, nothing is going to change. How many SFW board members and past presidents were on or are currently on the WB?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Well, they are looking for 3 new board members.

Are you interested Vanilla?

https://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/2347-three-openings-on-the-utah-wildlife-board.html


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Candidly, I'd do it. If for no other reason, I would be a thorn in the side of the good old boys club that I think completely ignores the average sportsman in Utah, only to throw some crumbs around here and there like spike hunts to appease us peasants. 

I also know that I don't have the connections to make this happen. But if anyone that is connected to the governor wants to make this happen, I'd do it. I'm not exactly looking for more things to fill my schedule with at this time, but I complain enough about the process that if this was a realistic possibility, it would be poor form for me not to be willing. Critter, got any favors you can call in? :grin:


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> Candidly, I'd do it. If for no other reason, I would be a thorn in the side of the good old boys club that I think completely ignores the average sportsman in Utah, only to throw some crumbs around here and there like spike hunts to appease us peasants.
> 
> I also know that I don't have the connections to make this happen. But if anyone that is connected to the governor wants to make this happen, I'd do it. I'm not exactly looking for more things to fill my schedule with at this time, but I complain enough about the process that if this was a realistic possibility, it would be poor form for me not to be willing. Critter, got any favors you can call in? :grin:


If we could get a couple good guys to get on the board that may help in all the issues we have. I know Founder over on MonsterMuleys said he would throw his hat in the ring too.

Lets get a letter writing campaign, office visits to the governor, ect going. I am sure we have people on here with some connections in the state government. 
Vanilla please go apply for it. That would be huge.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

My problem is that I am a non resident and calling in favors don't work too well. Also most of my favors that I could call in are down in Carbon and Emery Counties which don't sit too well with the folks up north.


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## hawkeye (Feb 18, 2008)

jebuwh-

Good luck with your venture! I wish you the best but you should know going in that your odds of succeeding are next to zero. SFW has the current Expo Tag Contract because the powers that be want them to have that contract. That is precisely the same reason why the state granted them an additional 5-year option - to make even more difficult for a third party to challenge them for the contract. It is also why the RFP was drafted in the way that it was. It is my personal belief that no third party can beat out SFW/MDF under the Expo Tag Contract under the current system.

That being said, I knew that it would be an uphill battle when I agreed to assist RMEF with the bid process. My hope was to help RMEF put together a superior proposal and win the contract or, at a minimum, draw attention to a broken process. RMEF was not awarded the contract but we were able to shine a light on a glaring problem. I had a lot of fun and met some great people along the way but it was a long, difficult road that ended exactly how I suspected it would in the beginning.

As long as you know what you are signing up for on the front end, get to work and make it happen!

Hawkeye


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## kailey29us (May 26, 2011)

So is this expo BS something the state auditor would/should look into? They are UT state big game tags.


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

kailey29us said:


> So is this expo BS something the state auditor would/should look into? They are UT state big game tags.


Should they? Absolutely. Will they, not a chance. Like everyone is saying the corruption runs deep.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> One lacks integrity if they want a chance to hunt in Utah so they utilize all the opportunities to do so?
> 
> Wow...


I actually somewhat agree with that statement. If you are vocal in your complaints about the way the expo is run and how it robs tags and the back room deals etc. But you still apply because all you want to do is hunt then there is some substance to the statement.

But at the end of the day we are fighting a monster that can't be slain by the little guys no matter how many get together to do it. IT should not be a reason to be judged or mocked. That becomes akin to someone getting beat up for voting either DEM or REP even thought we know they are all a bunch of self serving rats. I don't like the "corruption of the expo" but I still apply and I still attend because I love hunting, fishing and everything outdoors.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> I don't like the "corruption of the expo" but I still apply and I still attend because I love hunting, fishing and everything outdoors.


This is where I am at. I would 100% support putting every single one of those tags back in the public draw, in addition to all the convention tags as well. (Over 500 LE and OIL tags go to conventions and the expo each year, BTW. Point creep, anyone???)

But, this is the system. If there are tags to be drawn, my desire to have a chance at those tags and do what I absolutely love to do is greater than my resolve to send a message. I guess if working entirely within the rules of the established system makes me lack integrity, I'll wear that badge with honor.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

jebuwh said:


> I know Founder over on MonsterMuleys said he would throw his hat in the ring too.


You just lost all credibility IMO...

-DallanC


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

DallanC said:


> You just lost all credibility IMO...
> 
> -DallanC


For saying someone on a forum wants to get on the wildlife board?

I don't know anything about him to be honest. Just figured it couldn't be worse than the current board.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> You just lost all credibility IMO...
> 
> -DallanC


Ditto!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

All credibility? So because of one internet post he has zero credibility? 

Huh. You both just lost all credibility. IMO. 


8):grin:


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

MadHunter said:


> Ditto!


Again, I don't know the guy, never met him, don't know anything about him. Just figured someone active in the hunt community would be better than our current board members?

Would anyone care to explain why I have now lost all credibility over 1 post?


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

jebuwh said:


> Again, I don't know the guy, never met him, don't know anything about him. Just figured someone active in the hunt community would be better than our current board members?
> 
> Would anyone care to explain why I have now lost all credibility over 1 post?


I can't explain it. It's just a couple internet homie's opinions. I wouldnt worry that much about it.

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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

jebuwh said:


> Again, I don't know the guy, never met him, don't know anything about him. Just figured someone active in the hunt community would be better than our current board members?
> 
> Would anyone care to explain why I have now lost all credibility over 1 post?


Lets just say founder has a "history" that alot of us dont agree with. Anyone who questions it gets the ole BANHAMMER... including his own moderators.

-DallanC


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

DallanC said:


> Lets just say founder has a "history" that alot of us dont agree with. Anyone who questions it gets the ole BANHAMMER... including his own moderators.
> 
> -DallanC


Interesting. Yeah definitely did not know any of that.
Another reason I want more people involved, get more organized. Attack this whole SFW/Expo issue from every front possible.

Everyone is saying it can't be done, unless we get people on the board, have an in with the governor, all that. Well what if we can do that? What if we can get enough people together that it could change who gets elected? I know it's next to impossible but I can't sit around and watch how bad it sucks without doing something I guess.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

RMEF has hosted a truck load more events successfully than SFW ever dreamed about. Hosting a Western Outdoor Expo in UT for consideration is totally irrelevant. That was a good 'ol boy thing, nothing more.

The times I do go, it is to see the stuff in booths and just the atmosphere in general. It is not for the tag game. Although my dad did win one in 2015, the quality of the bulls and hunt was nothing compared to what I have seen in my home state, in which you have a much better chance of drawing every year.

Sometimes I think there is a lot of hype generated from a handful of really good quality units applied everywhere else in the state with average output on quality.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

High Desert Elk said:


> Sometimes I think there is a lot of hype generated from a handful of really good quality units applied everywhere else in the state with average output on quality.


That's what happens when you restrict most of the state to Spike only. Just the opportunity to chase "big bulls" any where in the state becomes a huge deal.

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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

I bet all 3 of those positions are filled by SFW representatives at least 2 anyway


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

weaversamuel76 said:


> That's what happens when you restrict most of the state to Spike only. Just the opportunity to chase "big bulls" any where in the state becomes a huge deal.
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


There are plenty of other states to chase big bulls, not all UT units carry the same caliber of bulls as others statewide.

I guess it all depends on what a "big bull" is...


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

That's my point compared to a Spike everything is a big bull. 

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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

DallanC said:


> I'm not talking the draw... I'm talking the huge brokered hunt deals going on in the back room.
> 
> How much do you think George W Bush's Utah Elk hunt 6 or so years ago cost? Of course it was paid for by lobbyists... and big corps with deeeeeeep pockets.
> -DallanC


Really just one corp, Hunt Oil owns the north half of the second largest CWMU in the state (second only to Deseret), that of Preston Nutter east of Price. Hunt is in Houston and they are well acquainted with the Bushes. 
He has been here several times and James Baker comes here regularly and hosts those guys there in his place in Texas also, not sure it is the big money you are after; not to say that there aren't deals, but this one may not be the best example.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

hazmat said:


> I bet all 3 of those positions are filled by SFW representatives at least 2 anyway


So why couldn't/wouldn't RMEF nominate someone for those positions? I can think of several people who would have a good chance, especially if they went outside of their membership. They have high profile recognition and they can nominate anyone they want!

FWIW, No, I'm not suggesting for myself, 'cause I don't have what it takes to debate verbally under pressure and couldn't/wouldn't accept it anyway for personal and family reasons, situations and schedules that are out of my control. But I know others who probably could and would speak for the typical Utah outdoorsman. And most of you probably know someone as well.

Yes, there's more than one way to skin this cat! If you'll remember, this last EXPO tag contract was awarded to SFW by a yes vote from 4 remaining members of the Wildlife Board after 3 of the then 4 SFW members recused themselves. That left only 4 voting members of the Board with Donnie as the only SFW member allowed to vote (Why he didn't recuse himself also is because it takes 4 Board members to be a voting quorum and he was the one least involved with SFW.) I was hoping one of the other 3 members had the gonads to vote no, but that didn't happen. In any case, I think SFW learned a lesson and will likely be more reluctant to place prominent members on the Board. But, having said that, we still need someone who has the courage to stand up to the lock-tight relationship between SFW/MDF and DWR. Any takers?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> So why couldn't/wouldn't RMEF nominate someone for those positions?


BEST SUGGESTION IN THE THREAD

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Lets just say founder has a "history" that alot of us dont agree with. Anyone who questions it gets the ole BANHAMMER... including his own moderators.
> 
> -DallanC


OK! Not all credibility. Maybe just some tiny bit for blindly assuming.

I do know the guy via a mutual friend and I am with Dallan on the history. Enough that I haven't been on his boards in years. It's drink the Kool-Aid or get the hammer with him.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> So why couldn't/wouldn't RMEF nominate someone for those positions?


Great question. Anyone from RMEF willing to answer that one?

Here is what is frustrating to an internet whiner like me: If RMEF couldn't get the expo contract when they were literally the ONLY organization that applied, how could they possibly get someone on the Wildlife Board?


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> Great question. Anyone from RMEF willing to answer that one?
> 
> Here is what is frustrating to an internet whiner like me: If RMEF couldn't get the expo contract when they were literally the ONLY organization that applied, how could they possibly get someone on the Wildlife Board?


We need someone like that nominated, and we need someone with an in with the governor that could put pressure to actually put someone like that on the board.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I find that fighting Utah's government/bureaucracy/cronyism is a 90* uphill battle. Just take as an example what they are doing with Prop 2 and 3. We the voters cast a vote on these 2 bills no matter how you voted the props passed and should have become law. This came from our power to override our legislature by having a ballot initiative. Now they decide to overrule the will of the voters and re-write these laws?

If they are blatantly willing to trample our votes, it's obvious to me that they have no shame when it comes to the extent of their corruption. This stands ner-a-chance.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> If RMEF couldn't get the expo contract when they were literally the ONLY organization that applied, how could they possibly get someone on the Wildlife Board?


Anyone who truly thinks they can change anything should reread the above. If you still think you can change anything, reread the above 100 more times.

-DallanC


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

For the most part everyone agrees with you Jebuwh that there needs to be a change. The problem I see is you're trying to beat SFW at their own game by playing by their rules. Even if you could play the game, how much money are you willing to spend to put up the fight? SFW is not about to give up the expo and will spend millions of dollars to keep it. We already had our giant (RMEF) square off toe to toe with Goliath and they lost. I think the only way it'll ever get blown up is if someone on the inside whistle blows on everything. I do admire your passion though and wish you the best of luck. 

On a side note....I wonder if any of the refs from the saints vs rams game belong to SFW? :-?


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## 4x4 Bronco (Sep 7, 2007)

I will happily be educated on this matter if my thoughts are incorrect, but as long as the funds for auctioned off permits are going back to wildlife conservation in the state of Utah I don’t have a huge problem with some tags going to the highest bidder.
Don’t get me wrong, I do want as much opportunity for the average Utah Hunter, but if a rich guy pays a grundel for a permit which in turn goes back into wildlife conservation it is a win for the average hunter in my book.
I do wish that RMEF could have gotten the bid for the expo as they likely would put more money back into Utah wildlife conservation than SFW.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

4x4....there are a few problems with the expo as things now stand: 1) not all the funds that are gained go back to wildlife conservation. In fact, this was one of the big selling points made by RMEF--they would give it all back. As is, SFW is returning more than in the past but not even close to 100% of the funds gained. 2) In order for an expo to really make money off tags, the tags have to be worth it. In other words, nobody is going to pay big money for a tag unless that tag gives the person a really good chance to kill a trophy animal. So, SFW is financially motivated to limit general season tags, increase trophy hunting opportunity to by creating more trophy units, and even reducing LE tags in order to make money off expo and auction tags. In other words, they take tags from the general units and average Joe hunters to increase the value of auction tags. 3) All expo tags are taken from the general pool of available tags and could be put back into the general draw and help move people through the draws. Instead, they are given to the expo and, again, benefit those people with the cash or means to apply. For me, as an example, it is a farce because it is very difficult for me to justify driving to SLC and spending the time and money in hopes of getting a one in a million tag.


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## 4x4 Bronco (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks for your response Wyoming! I for one am very opposed to limiting tags for the purpose of producing more“trophy“ animals. Many hunters put too much into the“score“ of an animal. A mature animal that gets one excited should be plenty. I appreciate the education on things I am underinformed on that we get through these conversations!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Several years ago there were huge outcries to have SFW open their books up to the public. and they never did. I also remember that there complaints and questions about how much money was spent on wildlife vs admin costs. I don't think anyone outside of SFW knows how much money they take in on membership dues but I can't imagine it's a huge amount. I do remember seeing a leaked expenditure sheet at one point where Don Peay aside from his salary received over 1 million in consulting fees for that year. As an executive at any company; if you collect a salary and them billed them for consulting fees I guarantee you all hell would break loose with allegations of impropriety, fraud, conflict of interest etc. It's as shady as it can get.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

> "One state at a time, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife is dismantling the very idea of a public wildlife resource, and replacing it with special privileges for the privileged." Ben Long in High Country News


-DallanC


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Let us not forget the venerable United Wildlife Cooperative (UWC) that was so prevalent here on these message boards several years ago... the group representing the "Average Joe"... was present and relatively visible for a brief period of time...

And is now nowhere to be found...


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

derekp1999 said:


> Let us not forget the venerable United Wildlife Cooperative (UWC) that was so prevalent here on these message boards several years ago... the group representing the "Average Joe"... was present and relatively visible for a brief period of time...
> 
> And is now nowhere to be found...


There is a good example.

I was part of the UWC along with a few others that really wanted to make a difference. Not gonna get into details and that's all I got to say about that.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

MadHunter said:


> There is a good example.
> 
> I was part of the UWC along with a few others that really wanted to make a difference. Not gonna get into details and that's all I got to say about that.


"
Actually, I think it would be interesting to hear the "details" from someone besides the leadership I know about. I've wondered for several years what the members really expected of UWC and what they think about it now.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> "
> Actually, I think it would be interesting to hear the "details" from someone besides the leadership I know about. I've wondered for several years what the members really expected of UWC and what they think about it now.


Agreed.


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

I am also interested to hear more on that


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## sherlock (Apr 26, 2012)

I went to one of the first SFW organizing meetings years ago. I wondered how long it would take the ordinary Hunter/fisherman to see through their snake oil presentation. Looks like there are a few who are realizing that SFW is not in it for the little guys. They don’t get any of my money. I support your efforts to chang things.


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

sherlock said:


> I went to one of the first SFW organizing meetings years ago. I wondered how long it would take the ordinary Hunter/fisherman to see through their snake oil presentation. Looks like there are a few who are realizing that SFW is not in it for the little guys. They don't get any of my money. I support your efforts to chang things.


I'm headed to the Expo next week, and I have a bunch of meetings scheduled with different companies there, but like everyone else has said, it's a tall order.

I'm going to bring some of the thoughts and ideas on here and discuss all that as well. Anything we can do, a little change at a time is all we can hope for.


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## rafalciemski (May 18, 2018)

SFW. It's not first time they should be investigate. They give so much money to UDWR every year. They so they can receive couple hundred tags. I don't live in Utah but I don't know how you guys don't raise that issue at meeting and demand answers. You paying for those tags too


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## rafalciemski (May 18, 2018)

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=56012807&itype=CMSID


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I dont think people here understand the power and connections Mr Peay has, and what they are up against.




























-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Agreed.


I'd be throwing some people under the bus that I consider my friends by bringing up details. what I Can tell you is my perspective on the objectives of the UWC.

The UWC was a great idea that fell victim to itself. The was started to give the average Joe a voice and an opportunity to make an impact. By engaging in projects that impacted and helped wildlife; we did several of them such as range and habitat cleanups, lop and scatter, installing water guzzlers, cleaning up waterways , etc. The voice of the the average Joe was to be heard on the political side of things by having an organized presence. That gave a voice to all equally within the UWC and that voice was carried intact to the powers that be. No one paid any kind or dues to be a member. Not paying dues and having money as driving motivator is what was supposed to keep the UWC representing the average Joe; not special interests.

Whatever happened to drive the founders out and then bring in new blood I will not speak to but I think it was a great idea that eventually faded away 
and or/fell victim to itself and the way it was organized. It was all by and for the average Joe and I believe it was the average Joe that killed it as well.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> I dont think people here understand the power and connections Mr Peay has, and what they are up against.
> 
> -DallanC


You are right Dallan. Very few people know how far it reaches. I, for one, wish I was in the realm of those that do not know. Knowing the extent of his influence, connections and just how much he can drive and influence this state when it comes to wildlife and how; it sickens me.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

MadHunter said:


> I'd be throwing some people under the bus that I consider my friends by bringing up details. what I Can tell you is my perspective on the objectives of the UWC.
> 
> The UWC was a great idea that fell victim to itself. The was started to give the average Joe a voice and an opportunity to make an impact. By engaging in projects that impacted and helped wildlife; we did several of them such as range and habitat cleanups, lop and scatter, installing water guzzlers, cleaning up waterways , etc. The voice of the the average Joe was to be heard on the political side of things by having an organized presence. That gave a voice to all equally within the UWC and that voice was carried intact to the powers that be. No one paid any kind or dues to be a member. Not paying dues and having money as driving motivator is what was supposed to keep the UWC representing the average Joe; not special interests.
> 
> ...


FWIW, UWC is still legally compliant and up to date as a non-profit with the IRS, Utah Division of Corporations and the Utah State Tax Commission. The only government agency we're not up to date with is the Utah State Consumer Protection Division which only means we're not allowed to solicit outside of the membership for funds, items or services. And that's just a matter of re-registering and paying some late fees. Also the registered name and logo, mission and mission statement, bank accounts, UPS box and donated assets are still around.

So, what do you think the members expected? Did they just want a voice or were they looking for more than that?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> FWIW, UWC is still legally compliant and up to date as a non-profit with the IRS, Utah Division of Corporations and the Utah State Tax Commission. The only government agency we're not up to date with is the Utah State Consumer Protection Division which only means we're not allowed to solicit outside of the membership for funds, items or services. And that's just a matter of re-registering and paying some late fees. Also the registered name and logo, mission and mission statement, bank accounts, UPS box and donated assets are still around.
> 
> So, what do you think the members expected? Did they just want a voice or were they looking for more than that?


From my point of view I was looking for the UWC to be the first step in stopping the big money special interest machines from hijacking and pimping our wildlife.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

MadHunter said:


> From my point of view I was looking for the UWC to be the first step in stopping the big money special interest machines from hijacking and pimping our wildlife.


Actually, UWC did make or help make some steps toward your goal, but they weren't what we had hoped for. (#1 - 30% of the Expo Permit Application funds back to wildlife instead of the 90% we wanted, #2 - Only one Expo Permit now allowed per person per year, #3 - Prevention of the creation of another 30 Limited Entry Units and the additional tags that would be available for auctions and/or the Expo, #4 - A one-time "report" (not audit) of the use of the Expo Permit Application fees. There were some other proposals and suggestions that didn't get passed or accomplished, but all the other groups knew what we were about. And we had members on several committees.

Now, I'm not sure who I'm talking to so my questions and/or statements may not be applicable, but I'll pose these questions to ANY UWC member/former member on this forum who cares to respond. Since we apparently didn't met your expectations in a timely manner, how do you regard UWC now? In your estimation, is it worth trying to save? Or would another organization like it be of any value? If you could, what would you have done differently? And don't worry about throwing ME under the bus, 'cause I did that myself some time ago. I seriously underestimated the task of reorganizing and overestimated my abilities to get the job done. There's a whole lot more to creating/reorganizing and running a nonprofit than I ever realized!


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

elkfromabove said:


> Actually, UWC did make or help make some steps toward your goal, but they weren't what we had hoped for. (#1 - 30% of the Expo Permit Application funds back to wildlife instead of the 90% we wanted, #2 - Only one Expo Permit now allowed per person per year, #3 - Prevention of the creation of another 30 Limited Entry Units and the additional tags that would be available for auctions and/or the Expo, #4 - A one-time "report" (not audit) of the use of the Expo Permit Application fees. There were some other proposals and suggestions that didn't get passed or accomplished, but all the other groups knew what we were about. And we had members on several committees.
> 
> Now, I'm not sure who I'm talking to so my questions and/or statements may not be applicable, but I'll pose these questions to ANY UWC member/former member on this forum who cares to respond. Since we apparently didn't met your expectations in a timely manner, how do you regard UWC now? In your estimation, is it worth trying to save? Or would another organization like it be of any value? If you could, what would you have done differently? And don't worry about throwing ME under the bus, 'cause I did that myself some time ago. I seriously underestimated the task of reorganizing and overestimated my abilities to get the job done. There's a whole lot more to creating/reorganizing and running a nonprofit than I ever realized!


Honestly it sounds like a worthwhile effort. If the group was big enough with a loud enough voice, I feel like it would have to be listened to, at least somewhat. 
The difficult part would be getting people to sign up and actually do something, rather then complain on here. Haha.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

jebuwh said:


> Honestly it sounds like a worthwhile effort. If the group was big enough with a loud enough voice, I feel like it would have to be listened to, at least somewhat.
> The difficult part would be getting people to sign up and actually do something, rather then complain on here. Haha.


Agreed! I say commit to the original goals and try to save it. Why bother creating another organization and go through the legal and financial burdens of creating it. I don't have the time I had back then to give to this effort but I would be willing to give some of my time.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

jebuwh said:


> Honestly it sounds like a worthwhile effort. If the group was big enough with a loud enough voice, I feel like it would have to be listened to, at least somewhat.
> The difficult part would be getting people to sign up and actually do something, rather then complain on here. Haha.


One of the LARGEST wildlife groups out there got ignored and shown the exit door. You really think you can somehow get more clout than the RMEF? If they couldnt do this then no-one can.

I was serious in stating in the beginning your best shot at changing things is to become Governor.

All that aside, I hear people saying they want "change" but what change are you proposing? What is your Goal? Your Mission Statement? I've been around the block enough times to be mighty skeptical that when people advocate for change, it usually benefits them and not me.

I've learned over the years the system is rigged, but if you know how to find the "loopholes", a person can get an awful lot of tags and hunting opportunities. Between me, my wife and my boy... we've killed over 100 big game animals in not all that many years actually.

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> One of the LARGEST wildlife groups out there got ignored and shown the exit door. You really think you can somehow get more clout than the RMEF? If they couldnt do this then no-one can.
> 
> I was serious in stating in the beginning your best shot at changing things is to become Governor.
> 
> ...


Dallan, this reads to me like you are somewhat of a cynic. I, for one like to think that not all is lost.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> Dallan, this reads to me like you are somewhat of a cynic. I, for one like to think that not all is lost.


Again, one of the LARGEST wildlife groups in America was the *ONLY* group that applied to host the convention. They offered to give *100%* of the revenue back to the DWR.

***THEY_STILL_DID_NOT_WIN_THE_CONTRACT***

Cynic? You bet your ass I am.

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Again, one of the LARGEST wildlife groups in America was the *ONLY* group that applied to host the convention. They offered to give *100%* of the revenue back to the DWR.
> 
> ***THEY_STILL_DID_NOT_WIN_THE_CONTRACT***
> 
> ...


I respect a man that calls it like it is. Especially on himself.

I still believe we should keep the fight going.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think both of you are correct in your thinking. Under current regimes and guidance, there is zero chance anyone but SFW will get the expo tags contract, and there is zero chance they will change the way they do business. 

But that doesn't mean everyone should give up. It may be a losing battle, but sometimes you have to fight, even if you're going to get your butt kicked. If for no other reason than you can look yourself in the mirror and said you tried.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Hey EFA, 
I was a big supporter of UWC and I know the "founding fathers' respected my input in the early years. So much so, that they wanted me to be a board member for the Central Region. Around the same time, SFW also wanted me to join their group and they would put me on the board for their Tooele County Chapter.
I declined both offers.
Shortly afterwards, I stopped supporting the UWC, along with many others out there. Also, I have never been a member of SFW, although I feel they do have a place within the grand scope of things. They just need to have a much smaller piece of pie and UWC could use a bigger piece. 
Why do you think so many people stopped supporting UWC, including myself?


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I remember the ole UWC days...I remember a lot of forum folks were pretty gung-ho about the whole thing and being that my only view of them was off this forum I thought that they may be a formidable opponent to SFW, hell they were out picking up garbage and posting pics and such--it was pretty cool

---and then I listened to the Wildlife board meeting where their representative tried to articulate their purpose. It was a poor showing to say the least (some folks are NOT cut out for public speaking). I recall members of the Wildlife Board asking how many paying members the organization had and verbally scoffing when told that they had no paying members but that membership was free. This seemed to be a big deal to the wildlife board folks. I think first impressions are a big deal and I sure had a different view of UWC and 'forum power' after that. This is not putting down what they were trying to accomplish, but I wouldn't take anything series these guys were saying from listening to the board meeting. Sorry is this ruffles any feathers--this was several years ago but that's what sticks in my head.

I agree that if RMEF can't pull it off then a home grown org with little $ aint gonna make it happen. Maybe find a billionaire who needs something to do? Then it could happen?

I will say that probably the best thing to happen because of smack talking SFW hating forum dudes is that the word is out to other states about SFW shenanigans and how to defend against them. Utah may be a lost cause but a lot of folks have been educated and we have yet to see an SFW like entity sink it's claws into another state like Utah and there have been many attempts! So this forum and especially Monster Muleys have that going for them. :grin:


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> Again, one of the LARGEST wildlife groups in America was the *ONLY* group that applied to host the convention. They offered to give *100%* of the revenue back to the DWR.
> 
> ***THEY_STILL_DID_NOT_WIN_THE_CONTRACT***
> 
> ...


I saw one post mention a dude in his basement doing the draw....

It's worth noting that RMEF actually LOST POINTS on their bid for recommending the EXACT SAME company that the DWR uses for their draws. So I sit with Dallan.

The only way it could change, would be:

1) We get a new governor who happens to be someone who hangs on UWN and agrees with us. I mean... the current one wants to sell public land for private profit so I'm not sure how close we are to a public-interest hunter being in seat lol.

2) RMEF would have sued.

3) Every single seat on the wildlife board, these 3 and all the next rounds, are taken by non SFW/Don P supporters - then they all agree on revamping the expo.

Keep in mind, AT LEAST 4 of the 7 current have ties to SFW and I believe 3 served in board positions for them. These 3 seats being filled will likely be the same.

Don P and his buddies also bought Hunter Nation and turned it into a consistent hunt raffle. This is possible because of his worldwide connections both hunting and politically. He has a lot of "board members" for it.

I would recommend that we ALL send emails to RMEF (whoever is the best local contact) asking that they have a representative (or 3) apply for the open positions. It's at least a start and they probably would "guess" or "speculate" a lot less than a lot of the whimsical wildlife board decisions I have watched.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Originally I directed my ire at SFW, feeling that they were the root of all evil. Since, I have decided that SFW is merely acting within the bounds that they are allowed to by the Utah Department of Wildlife Resources... until change occurs within the DWR and on up the chain to the governor I see no reason to expect any change.


Hypothetical question... 
If starting a new organization or resurrecting an old one are insurmountable feats... what about joining SFW, flooding them with new membership and become a vocal uprising from within?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

derekp1999 said:


> Originally I directed my ire at SFW, feeling that they were the root of all evil. Since, I have decided that SFW is merely acting within the bounds that they are allowed to by the Utah Department of Wildlife Resources... until change occurs within the DWR and on up the chain to the governor I see no reason to expect any change.
> 
> Hypothetical question...
> If starting a new organization or resurrecting an old one are insurmountable feats... what about joining SFW, flooding them with new membership and become a vocal uprising from within?


This is astute. If the state (DWR, Wildlife Board, etc) told SFW to change or they aren't receiving the expo tags, SFW would do ANYTHING they asked. Why, you ask? Because the expo and auction tags are their golden goose. So yes, the change needs to come at the state level. I don't think any amount of normal members will change SFW decision making, because run of the mill rank and file members don't fund the organization.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> ..... I don't think any amount of normal members will change SFW decision making, because run of the mill rank and file members don't fund the organization.


Even if they did fund it; I'm willing to bet it's structured in a way that DP will always retain control of it or remain in power via a Putin-esque maneuvering.


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## olibooger (Feb 13, 2019)

I might be new to hunting but I am far new from politics. I was going to go to the expo for one reason...to try on a pack. I decided not to support the crooked system for my own selfish gain. 
I have done some research and yall are right on when it comes to corruption and the expo. Honestly it seems the only solid way is a run for governor position to make change happen.


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