# Tribune covers the Nebo Sheep poaching



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I think the piece is pretty fairly written with no real bias shown. Rare in journalism these days so kudos to Brian Maffly
http://www.sltrib.com/news/4476856-155/utahs-dwr-takes-blame-for-bighorn


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## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

Wade Lemon quote.. Lemon said his clients "put a lot of money into Utah," more than those complaining about the ram. "These knuckleheads ought to be ashamed for spit-balling these people. Those guys who buy a $25 deer tag don't do squat" for habitat conservation, he said.

What a POS...
The North American Wildlife model is 100% against this train of thought. Just because a person pays big money for a tag doesn't give them anymore right to the animals we hunt than the "Knuckleheads" that pay $25.

I truly hope every single person on this site goes to the Hunting Expo next year and takes the opportunity to tell WL, face to face, what a D-bag he really is.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Interesting....Interesting....

Soooo, who's got the hookup on them $25 tags? I've had to pay $50 for all of mine.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I would encourage everyone to go to WLH Facebook hunting and give them a review. Especially after his condescending comments on the average hunter. I just left a 1 star.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

50,000 hunters buying a $25 whatever permit contribute $1.25 MM per year to conservation.

What a chowderhead. We are taught in hunter's safety that it is the hunters responsibility to know game laws and know where they are hunting at all times. It appears the information was published. Clearly a violation occured by the hunter and outfitter.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

That was fast! They already disabled reviews, at least for me. "This action has been deemed abusive" 

Worked if I didn't leave any comments


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

elkantlers said:


> Wade Lemon quote.. Lemon said his clients "put a lot of money into Utah," more than those complaining about the ram. "These knuckleheads ought to be ashamed for spit-balling these people. Those guys who buy a $25 deer tag don't do squat" for habitat conservation, he said.


So, if you put in enough money "for conservation", you are justified in doing just about anything you want? That's what I hear from this quote.

The sad thing is that there are people out there that agree with Mr. Lemon. :sad:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm not sure a news story about hunting has ever made me so upset. 

One thing that is easy to conclude here is Wade Lemon is a complete piece of garbage. He might as well have said, "We put a lot of money into this. We are above the rules, and there isn't a **** thing any of you can do about it." Does this sound like any other issue surrounding these permits recently?

We've completely flown the coop with hunting in Utah. Heaven help us all.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I saw the BS Wade was pulling firsthand back in the 90's lion hunting..

Brent Smith was the law enforcement (DWR) officer in Fillmore,
got to know him really well over a couple year period dealing with Wade.

I've kinda 'held back' on posting about WLH, having known them,
BUT, I'll tell ya what, I've got several 'stories' I could throw out there!


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Too many rules everywhere.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Whipped cream on a turd, still tastes like sh*t.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

This is my favorite thread.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

"Utah authorities declined to charge the hunter or her Wade Lemon Hunting guides because a Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (DWR) employee had misinformed them that the Nebo unit was open, when by law it is closed to conservation tag holders on even-number years."

"Unfortunately, because of a personnel change this year, we cannot find proof that we sent an explanatory letter to the statewide conservation permit holder," the agency officials wrote."

I'm not so sure they weren't legal, or at least thought they were legal. A DWR employee told them they could hunt there AND they never received the letter the DWR usually sends out. I'm afraid I'd have done the same thing.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

martymcfly73 said:


> I would encourage everyone to go to WLH Facebook hunting and give them a review. Especially after his condescending comments on the average hunter. I just left a 1 star.


Done!


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

longbow said:


> "Utah authorities declined to charge the hunter or her Wade Lemon Hunting guides because a Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (DWR) employee had misinformed them that the Nebo unit was open, when by law it is closed to conservation tag holders on even-number years."
> 
> "Unfortunately, because of a personnel change this year, we cannot find proof that we sent an explanatory letter to the statewide conservation permit holder," the agency officials wrote."
> 
> I'm not so sure they weren't legal, or at least thought they were legal. A DWR employee told them they could hunt there AND they never received the letter the DWR usually sends out. I'm afraid I'd have done the same thing.


Longbow,

This is a very high level outfitter service who knew this rule or they would not have been looking for it. There is no legal justification for "i thought i was legal". The rule is right there on the books where it has always been. The fact that they called a dwr employee outside the region draws shadows on their effort to get the truth.

Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Since it is in print, there is also no requirement to notify the hunters as the proclamation guide book clearly states it is not a full list of the laws and gives info on where to go find them.

Shame on Wade Lemon for doing this and then justifying it with money.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

derekp1999 said:


> Whipped cream on a turd, still tastes like sh*t.


I suspect we are all going to take your word for it on this.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

silentstalker said:


> Longbow,
> 
> This is a very high level outfitter service who knew this rule or they would not have been looking for it. There is no legal justification for "i thought i was legal". The rule is right there on the books where it has always been. The fact that they called a dwr employee outside the region draws shadows on their effort to get the truth.
> 
> ...


Whenever you call the IRS for tax advice on the phone, you cannot rely on it as a defense if the phone operator is wrong. You still have the personal responsibility to find out the law for yourself. Unless you got it in writing with the agency's signature and letterhead on it, this kind of verbal advice is useless.

This is the way law works everywhere for everything in every nation on this Earth.

So I am inclined to agree with SilentS that the outfitters should have known better.

The huntress should be able to sue the outfitters for incompetence.

The State Of Utah DWR however should have fined the outfitters and the huntress and the trophy should have been confiscated.

But as with all things in a corrupt bureaucracy, money greases the skids.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

wyogoob said:


> This is my favorite thread.


None of us is out on opening day of general rifle season here today obviously.

The weather should be fairly nice out, for everyone that is out there.

No precipitation of any kind expected until sometime early next week, and then only spotty.

I have to wait for 6 months of residency before I become eligible for a resident hunting license and tags.

Ergo, any thread is going to be my own favorite thread so I can at least read about hunting.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in-utah/hunting-permits/697-are-you-a-resident.html


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

In my opinion the blame falls on the prosecutor who declined to charge them. The DWR deserves a large chunk of the blame for not fully endorsing charges and accepting blame for the blatant disregard of a current law on the books. 

I have received answers to questions from several DWR employees yet I never acted upon them. I just dug deeper until I found the law myself. 

This poaching incident and the subsequent lack of charges is everything that is wrong with hunting in this state.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Karl said:


> derekp1999 said:
> 
> 
> > Whipped cream on a turd, still tastes like sh*t.
> ...


I thought if anyone on this forum would be able to recognize hyperbole it would have been you...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Wildlife departments and law enforcment are not paid to interpret law. That is for the court (and DA) to decide.

It's still the hunters responsibility to know, no matter what. The hunter was hunting without a license. The hunter was hunting in a closed area. Had this been anyone else, you'd be reading a "high-five" article on ksl.com about DWR apprending poachers.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Review sent 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gledeasy (Mar 23, 2014)

Anyone know if WLH has ever guided either tag holder in the past? Maybe they can't verify a letter this year, but maybe could from previous years?

The excerpts given in the article from WL confirm to me that this was all about the wealthy buying themselves out of trouble.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

derekp1999 said:


> I thought if anyone on this forum would be able to recognize hyperbole it would have been you...
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole


It just sounds like a funny statement to begin with.

I have gotten in the habit of when people say "this tastes like crap" then I reply "I'll take your word for it."


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Looks like WLO took the reviews off of their Facebook page....


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Of course they did, as well as my posts in regards to each specific law broken. They have taken their ball and ran home. 

He says they did nothing wrong but wont man up and talk about how it was a legal kill. The truth has them on the defensive.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Doesn't surprise me at all. "My words were taken out of context. " sure they were.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

Catherder said:


> So, if you put in enough money "for conservation", you are justified in doing just about anything you want? That's what I hear from this quote.
> 
> The sad thing is that there are people out there that agree with Mr. Lemon. :sad:


I believe that is the mentality of the state of Utah. Look at the expo and all the crap that goes with that.....it's all about $$$$, screw the average joe.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Ridiculous...

I do have a bit of a hard time thinking that Mr. Lemon went on this hunt knowing he was breaking the law. Even if he thought he could get away with it, wouldn't he anticipate the outrage coming from the sporting community? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you break the law and post it all over the internet, people are going to get mad and make noise. Even without charges, his credibility has surely taken a hit from all this.

That being said, I still have a low opinion of the guy based on:

1) Ignorance of the law (if he truly didn't know what he was doing)
2) His comments about average public hunters


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> I saw the BS Wade was pulling firsthand back in the 90's lion hunting..
> 
> Brent Smith was the law enforcement (DWR) officer in Fillmore,
> got to know him really well over a couple year period dealing with Wade.
> ...


I don't have several, but I have got one doosie involving my in-laws. I don't want to slander anyone on a public forum (is it still slander if it is true?), but if anyone cares enough to hear it shoot me a pm.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

It's only slander if it's not true. That being said, you had better be able to prove a potentially damaging statement if you make it public. If you cannot prove it, the offending party can accuse you of slander and get you into all sorts of trouble.


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## hawkeye (Feb 18, 2008)

It sounds like the outfitter made some emotional comments during his interview with the reporter and took a cheap shot at nearly all hunters and sportsmen. Once the article showed up in print and he started seeing the reaction from sportsmen, he quickly realized his mistake and apologized on Facebook. Unfortunately, that comment is similar to comments that I have heard from other guides and conservation groups and it is probably how he really feels. Just think, have you heard anyone compare the North American Conservation Model to socialism?

Nothing could be further for the truth. The thousands of every day sportsmen that buy tags and licenses and pay taxes are the backbone of our wildlife system. They are the true heroes of conservation - not the handful of high rollers who write big checks each year to jump to the front of the line, hire guides and a team of spotters, and hunt with premium tags. If it is really about conservation, then write a check and make a donation without asking for a premium tag. Let's get rid of the 300+ conservation permits and see how many of these folks are still writing out big checks for Utah's wildlife.

This incident is yet another example of what is wrong with Utah's wildlife management. The system has become corrupted with money and special interest groups. Utah sportsmen have a right to be angry and expect better from the DWR and licensed guides. Despite the views of Mr. Lemon and the DWR, we don't have to write a check for $95,000 to have an opinion that matters.

-Hawkeye-


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

A bell cannot be un wrung and an apology after a debasing statement is always just a CYA. He said what he said because he believes it.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

In

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## huntn30inchers (Apr 21, 2014)

This is great news! My general deer unit borders a limited entry unit, I hope I don't "accidently" cross over and kill a giant buck. The proclamation doesn't specifically say not to... 

Wade Lemon is a piece of garbage. Finally one of these big time guides comes out and says what they actually think, which is that they are better than everyone else and the law. The sad part about it is that the state agreed with them.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

huntn30inchers said:


> This is great news! My general deer unit borders a limited entry unit, I hope I don't "accidently" cross over and kill a giant buck. The proclamation doesn't specifically say not to...
> 
> Wade Lemon is a piece of garbage. Finally one of these big time guides comes out and says what they actually think, which is that they are better than everyone else and the law. The sad part about it is that the state agreed with them.


No. You have it all wrong. His statement was taken out of context! He meant the knuckleheads that... umm, well you'll have to read his "apology" on his facebook.

From his "apology":


GIANT D-bag said:


> The article also infers that I think all Utah hunters that purchase a 25$ tag are "knuckleheads" and that they do little to nothing for conservation. This could not be further from the truth. I AM one of these knuckleheads


Not sure what $25 tag he's referring to. Guess I shouldn't be too surprised. If you're too lazy to check on the regs of a tag you're getting paid to guide, you're probably too lazy to figure out what the actual tag price is for the little people you claim you're a part of.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

From the facebook review.



MWF original Post said:


> Just a group of poachers. Read the rules of the hunt yourself, because we know WLH won't .


 Wade Lemon Hunting Responded



WLH said:


> Jeremiah, we were well versed in the rules, and called DWR to make sure we were in the clear. I'd appreciate if you read through our latest post. Thanks


 I responded



MWF said:


> One Question - If you were well versed in the rules, then how did this happen? I think R657-41-2 spells it out pretty clearly. In the words of Sir Charles Barkley " I may be wrong, but I doubt it."


 Someone else responded



Someone said:


> Why feel the need to call the DWR if you weren't aware that the Nebo had some other situation not included in the field guide? Page one of the guidebook tells you to use it for reference only and to look at the actual regulations. R657-41-2 is the regulation specifically governing statewide sheep tags. I grew up at the mouth of AF canyon and watched the reintroduction, rise, and fall of the sheep from there down to Nebo. I remember when hunting was finally started on the herd and how due to a small population they would only let the unit tag holder and one of the statewide tags hunt it each year. I find it impossible to believe you thought things were completely OK with hunting that ram and that you were unaware of the alternating years. Calling the DWR at an office in another region, when the Springville office is practically at the base of Nebo, just underscores the fishiness of your actions.
> I have nothing against guided hunts and auction tags. Personal threats against you, your families or anyone involved are completely out of line. But, yes, you as the outfitter and Ms. Waldrip as the tag holder should have faced some repercussions. And claim your a "$25" tag butter all you want, but frankly it has been years since a tag cost that much. Hard to see how your comments against the little guys can be construed in a way that makes it OK.


 I thought this was quite comical and I know mistakes are made, but in this case C'mon Man.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Always fun to make real world connections of faces to handles! Lol, man that autocorrect on my phone sure drives me up a wall! But I do use a lot of butter...so I can see where it gets it from!


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

That was a great post. Mine was deleted...


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## Igottabigone (Oct 4, 2007)

What is also a little known fact about this hunt is that the Sportsman Tag hunter was camped on this ram for over a week. The sportsman tag hunter was camped on the mountain and intended to kill the ram the day after good ole boy Wade and Ms. Waldrip killed the ram. Big time bummer of a deal for the sportsman tag hunter. I find it hard to believe the good ole boy Wade and crew didn't see the sportsman tag hunter's camp while en route to poach the ram. Sad deal all the way around.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Wow, hearing this continues to make this story worse and more aggravating! If i were the sportsman's tag holder i would be livid!


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## hawkeye (Feb 18, 2008)

Tough luck for the Sportsmen Tag holder. That "knucklehead" only paid $10 for his application fee and has done nothing for conservation. As a result, he has no basis to "spitball" and complain about the actions of true hunters and conservationists.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

So when this hit, like everyone else I mouthed off. I posted, I complained. Then, I decided to call the DWR and compain where it mattered. I think the thing that irritated me the most was that some biologist somewhere was getting the blame. I hate CYA. I hate supposed "leadership" that lets there people hang in the wind. So I called Cedar City and simply told the very nice lady who answered the phone that I just wanted to let them know my feelings and that I appreciate what they do. Lady put me on the phone with her supervisor. Told the supervisor the same thing. After some off the record talk, it was made clear that it wasn't a Cedar biologist. So, I called the office in Price, again very nice, friendly lady answered. Told her the same, she put me on the what I thought was a voice mail of the ACTUAL biologist. The biologist answered the phone, so I told him that I thought it was chicken shizz for the brass in SLC to let the blame fall. I didn't ask him for the story, or what happened, because I feel like the blame is on two people. First, Wade Lemon. Bet your azz, that this was going to be the centerpiece of his advertising for the winter hunting expos and shows. He knew that a state record ram, and guiding the sheep tag, was huge for his company. I have no doubt he called around trying to find the answer that let him do what he wanted, and I'm not the only one who believes that.
Second. If your the head of an agency, and you have 2 tags that you need to take care of, for the premier species in this state, and this happens, the buck stops at your door. The state big game coord. is solely to blame on the DWR side. The lack of leadership from this office, is not only alarming, but is now criminal.
As for Waldrip, I learned in hunters safety, and my dad, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for your bullet, enough said, but she has a bunch of pics with WLH, so she most likely trusted him.
Last, Nebo DA. I might get there is some back door on this whole fiasco. I get your a small county, and this is the States baby and you don't want to play. I AS A HUNTER am SICK of wussy DA letting poachers off. The State of Utah just got a $95,000 ram stolen from it. If your gonna talk law and order. If your gonna chase petty crime, YOU CANNOT walk from this. This state has become a sad, sad example of how badly money corrupts, the swamp in SLC needs to be cleaned out.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Amen^^^


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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

Found this interesting. Guess it only applies to archery hunters on the extended units.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

GeTaGrip said:


> Found this interesting. Guess it only applies to knuckleheads.


Fixed it for you;-)


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm really feeling the "Knucklehead Outdoors" idea. Maybe start up a 501(c) nonprofit organization to promote equal application of wildlife laws to all tag holders and oust cronyism in state wildlife agencies? Fundraisers by selling knucklesandwiches featuring the culinary talents of Wyogoob (ptarmigan liver optional, head cheese mandatory), with a sales price of $25? Make a "sandwich" called the WLO special where the meat is outside the bun?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

When I read "knuckle sandwich" I thought you were going to say I get to go out and punch anyone that falls into the cronyism category. 

I was so disappointed in the real outcome...


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> When I read "knuckle sandwich" I thought you were going to say I get to go out and punch anyone that falls into the cronyism category.
> 
> I was so disappointed in the real outcome...


Maybe we could set up an obstacle course, kind of like tactical training, with pop up targets and you have to determine who are knuckleheads and who are cronies before you give them the ole 1-2 KO? $9.50 seems fitting for a go through the course.

Better?


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Been waiting to be #50 post.

Two questions if anyone knows.

1) Did the Sportsman Tag holder want to hunt Nebo and were they denied access?

2) Did the Sportsman Tag holder hunt and harvest a sheep?

Agreed it's wrong for an outfitter to not know the regulations; however what was the damage to the other tag holder?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

OriginalOscar said:


> Been waiting to be #50 post.
> 
> Two questions if anyone knows.
> 
> ...


1) According to internet hearsay, the sportsman tag holder did want to hunt that specific sheep on the Nebo.

2) Not sure.

I don't know if the sportsman tag holder can claim any legal damages (you'll have to ask all the lawyers on here; we seem to have quite a few). But IMO, if the internet hearsay is true, the damage comes in the form of lost opportunity. The sportsman tag holder was the only one who legally had the privilege of hunting that sheep (at least until the regular season opened up for one additional tag holder), and he would have been able to enjoy that privilege if not for the illegal actions of WL and co.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Good read. http://www.gohunt.com/read/news/utah-dwr-guilty-of-permitting-illegal-bighorn-harvest


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## MAS (Oct 11, 2012)

*lost perspective*

This issue really highlights how the hunting for "inches" trophy mentality has really corrupted our "sport". Hunting should be the way we check out from our daily screen obsession and engage in the wilderness. If we are successful and harvest an animal it should be a moment of connection and gratitude. Instead we have ruined it by chasing inches (antlers) setting up cameras, baiting, using full time guides to track every animal. Meat? I've heard people say antelope, moose, etc are unedible. Then why hunt? Ego? When I take an animal's life, any animal, I say thank you and hope it was a quick and ethical kill. I have no respect for hunters that are only killing for their score card and I hope I am not alone.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

We miss the mark so incredibly bad if we are only worried about the 'harm' to the Sportsman tag holder. I don't have a Henry Mtn tag, and unless I'm lucky as heck, I never will. But a poacher on the unit still causes harm to me even though I don't have a chance hunt them, but that doesn't matter. 

Unless we don't care, like I'm sure the DWR was betting on this all along. Like the expo, we the people will be upset for about 20 minutes, then will move along.


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