# Split season rifle hunt?



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

How does everyone feel about having a choice of either an early or later rifle deer season?
Like what was brought up a couple years ago. 
Does the UWC support this?
I think it would help with the crowding problems in some units.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I like it


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

But i want to see have the lifetime licenses go to late season


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> But i want to see have the lifetime licenses go to late season


I think there needs to be a cap on how many lifetime tag holder per season in each unit.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't believe that there are that many LL out there anymore. I actually think that there are more dedicated hunters out there now than there ever were lifetime licenses, and what about the LL holders that are also dedicated hunters? 

I don't know if the division even keeps any statistic on LL holders but it would be interesting to see just how many are still out there and hunting every year along with the number of dedicated hunters. 

As a lifetime license holder I would prefer the later season to a early one.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Ive heard there are 3,000 + or so of them. Thats enough you have to worry about. 

Id say the first hunt would be 5 days and the second hunt the next five days. Only one day between hunts. 

No the late hunt would not be in the rut or even close to it. If i had my way


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## stevedcarlson (Apr 19, 2011)

I like this I wish they would do a pistol season as well here in Utah


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> Ive heard there are 3,000 + or so of them. Thats enough you have to worry about.


Its closer to 5,000 and I know very few "old guys" who have'em, most are younger guys mid 40s age. Its a definite factor no matter what the DWR says.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The 3,000 tags would be the total sold over the years that they available, but I would like to know just how many of them are still hunting. I know of a few myself that aren't. Also I believe that when the division was thinking of the split hunt both of the hunts were going to be 9 days. As for the rut I have seen it start in the middle of October in Utah in some areas and later in others.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> How does everyone feel about having a choice of either an early or later rifle deer season?
> 
> I think it would help with the crowding problems in some units.


The split schedule that was proposed to go into affect in 2011 was combined with a split rifle elk season, so I'm not sure it would help with the crowding problems. Although some hunters would have both tags, you'd have both elk and deer hunters out there at the same time. The early season was 9 days and started on a Monday with only one weekend, while the late season was 9 days and started on a Friday and included 1-1/2 weekends. And they were separated by a 9 day combined deer/elk muzzy season, all back to back.

The DH and LT hunters would add to the mix, so it's hard to say what the numbers would be.

Additionally, crowding is a perceived problem and as I heard in the recent Southern RAC meeting from 2 RAC members, it doesn't matter what the numbers are, it was less crowded this year than last per Option #2!

One other thing to keep in mind is that short seasons tend to be more crowded than longer seasons because you're putting the same number of people into a shorter timetable.

Would I like it? I'm a bowhunter (at least so far), so it wouldn't make any difference to me.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

It would help with crowding problems but destroy the deer population. Deer are pretty approachable during winter when they are trying to conserve energy. I think it would be a very bad idea. Everyone would want the late hunt because all the big smart bucks have come down from their secluded high altitude hiding spots, and the smaller bucks will let you walk to within 100 yards before they will run.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

90redryder said:


> It would help with crowding problems but destroy the deer population. Deer are pretty approachable during winter when they are trying to conserve energy. I think it would be a very bad idea. Everyone would want the late hunt because all the big smart bucks have come down from their secluded high altitude hiding spots, and the smaller bucks will let you walk to within 100 yards before they will run.


The late hunt would be the same time as it is now. Not in Nov. or Dec.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> ridgetop said:
> 
> 
> > How does everyone feel about having a choice of either an early or later rifle deer season?
> ...


I think most of the overcrowding complaints came from the "Wasatch West" people. Not from the South.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Split into two 5 day seasons and open on Wednesday. 

Then extend the muzzy season to 10 days for deer in September and elk in November. 

I would support that idea.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> How does everyone feel about having a choice of either an early or later rifle deer season?
> Like what was brought up a couple years ago.
> Does the UWC support this?
> I think it would help with the crowding problems in some units.


So you are proposing it only be done on a few units or all of them?

I wouldn't support it if it took one longer hunt and split them into two shorter hunts. I think we should allow hunters to disperse themselves under the "new" system.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I wouldn't want anything that shortens the season to any less than 9 days. Two weekends is cut back enough as far as I'm concerned. Other than that, I would support anything that would disperse the numbers better. I know alot of folks get frusterated with the crowds. Another good aspect to this could be to slightly limit the more desirable season making it an every other year or so draw. Then, folks who want to hunt every year could have the first season, and those who want the better odds and conditions would have to sacrifice hunting every year sometimes taking pressure off the general hunts. Might work? The real problem is diversity. So many people with different agendas make it impossible to accomodate all. Thus there is no real good answer other than one the sustains the herd first, then offers as much opportunity as possible. This is no easy problem to face and why I hesitate to express every frustration that I have. --------SS


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

elkfromabove said:


> ridgetop said:
> 
> 
> > How does everyone feel about having a choice of either an early or later rifle deer season?
> ...


For clarification, the proposed split hunt started on the 1st Monday in October (Oct 3, 2011) and ended on the last Saturday (Oct 29, 2011), so we'd be catching the later portion of the elk rut and getting close to the deer rut (sort of, depending on the weather and location).


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Springville Shooter said:


> I wouldn't want anything that shortens the season to any less than 9 days. Two weekends is cut back enough as far as I'm concerned. Other than that, I would support anything that would disperse the numbers better. I know alot of folks get frusterated with the crowds. Another good aspect to this could be to slightly limit the more desirable season making it an every other year or so draw. Then, folks who want to hunt every year could have the first season, and those who want the better odds and conditions would have to sacrifice hunting every year sometimes taking pressure off the general hunts. Might work? *The real problem is diversity. So many people with different agendas make it impossible to accomodate all. Thus there is no real good answer other than one the sustains the herd first, then offers as much opportunity as possible.* This is no easy problem to face and why I hesitate to express every frustration that I have. --------SS


A1+

And I, for one, don't mind the crowds! I figure I can't (and never could) climb those hills better than the animals and it's better for me to have people moving them around. I'd just as soon have them (the animals and hiking hunters) do all the work, while I just mostly wait. Of course, I ain't targeting another Spyder or Popeye, and I'm an archer, but I'm ok with the results in that department!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The 2013 hunting dates just went through the RACs, 
Pretty much unopposed & unchanged.

I would expect the same for 2014-15.
Next chance to change hunting season dates (IMHO) wont happen til 2016.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Split seasons worry me. I think they would be GREAT for hunters and poor for deer. Imagine, hunting bucks with half or less the people. It makes them much more vulnerable, much easier to kill. I can only imagine how many mature bucks- the most important component of the buck herd- would be killed in the areas I hunt with an early October hunt. This would happen every year, as the bucks are visible, more vulnerable. How many of us have scouted bucks, even through Sept, only to have them disappear before the hunts? 

While I dislike competition, I have found it saves deer. I go into a basin alone and I can kill the bucks that live there. Throw in a few other hunters and those bucks have a better chance to live. I am against the split season. 

As for the Wasatch West-- well that is a topic for another thread, but almost 1,800 additional rifle hunters were added to the "gun" portion of the unit when the Extended Archery hunter numbers were used to base permits for the unit.


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

In the November central region RAC meeting, Anis mentioned that he will be presenting the season date restructure proposal to the Wildlife Board again in the near future. This proposal received a lot of good feedback and very little negative feedback when it was first presented. I am in full support of this season restructure and look forward to it being discussed again. Here is what the 2010 presentation looked like (for a 2011 calendar year):


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Not for it, rifle hunter's have the deadliest weapon, they don't need more of an advantage.


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

I for one, like the new plan. I was in favor of it last time we talked about it and was quite dissapointed that the talk just went away. I feel like the rifle hunts should be the last hunt for all species since they have the greatest range and effictiveness. I also like the idea of being able to go on the rifle elk hunt and shoot a buck if you see one or vise versa.
I think it's about time we make some serious changes to our hunting schedules. Everyone wants to be like Colorado when it comes to making management decisions, so ok, here is our chance. Let's make some real changes. Start the archery hunts on September 1st. August is way too early!! Do muzzleloader hunts at the end of September and/or carry into October, then rifle hunts in late October.

I am also in favor of seeing the hunts start on the same calendar date every year. It would be great to know that your hunt starts on September 25 (or whatever date it works out to be) every year so you can plan vaction time and scedule your other hunts.


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

> I am also in favor of seeing the hunts start on the same calendar date every year.


I forgot to mention that was part of the original proposal, that the start/end dates are hard dates, not days of the week. I am in favor of this as well.



> Not for it, rifle hunter's have the deadliest weapon, they don't need more of an advantage.


Please explain how this give rifle hunters more of an advantage?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Less people, less crowded, deer are dumber and more see-able with less traffic, greater success rates.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I would like to hear the proponents of the split seasons explain how a Split Season will help mule deer. Not how it helps hunters, but how it helps mule deer. 

As for hunters-- with the smaller units, we have diluted the permit base to draw from. When we split those units' permits into more hunts then we create even a smaller pool to draw from. Hunting as a group- for rifle hunters- will be made harder by this proposal. And all for what? Besides crowding (perceived crowding), what does split season hunting accomplish?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Packout that is why i would like to see the 10 or 12 days split up into two hunts with only one day of rest between hunts. The pressure would make the deer just as hard to find but make it so hunters didn't feel so crowded. There is no way in heck i want to see it any easier for them to get a deer. Its already easy enough.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Wasn't option 2 supposed to relieve the crowding issue? I don't see how it helps the herd any and it would complicate the draw.


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

For the general seasons, how would this make the draw system harder? If you hunt with a rifle you buy a rifle deer and or elk tag and go hunting for both animals at the same time? Same as with the other weapon choices.

Along the lines of LE hunts, I don't see why the LE hunters can't hunt for their LE animal during the general season for that respective animal. The elk will still be on the unit, and no one else will be hunting big bulls. They will have spike hunters in the area, but that isn't the end of the world.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

SW- The proposal shows a 14 day hunting season. We currently have a 9 day season. That is a 50%+ increase of days the animals gets hunted with a rifle. With most units close to their B ratio objectives, can we add 50% more rifle hunting days?

In my hunting areas, when few people show up lots of deer get killed. When lots of people show up less deer get killed. Seems contradictory, but I see it. People makes noise, they smell, the more people, the more alert the deer. Like I said in my first post-- give me a basin alone or with another guy or two and we'll give you dead bucks. Throw a bunch of people in the basin and the deer become much harder to kill. I think this is a wonderful proposal for me and for hunters. I still think it is a rough one for deer. 

This might get the issue off-track, but lets use a Unit for an example. The unit is meeting its B objective and had 240 rifle permits in 2012. If the Split units were implemented each hunt had 120 rifle permits. Pulling numbers out of the air-- Lifetimers choose 30 of the first and 10 of the 2nd. Dedicated hunters get 12 first and 16 of the second. Youth get 18 of the first and 22 of the second. That leaves 60 permits for the regular draw for the first and 82 for the second season. Or so. 

Then I believe you will see higher success rates on the first rifle hunt, maybe the same or worse on the second rifle hunt. If success rates are higher then ALL permits must be reduced the following year as the buck numbers drop. Archers lose, Mls lose, Early rifle lose, late rifle lose, the deer lose. 

Why can't we, Utah, implement a Plan and stick with it for more than 1 YEAR BEFORE WE TRY TO CHANGE IT????


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

You want to cut down the crowding, open the entire state(you could still have the units if you want) to general hunts. Stop this insane Limited Entry BS. 

We could also have a one week season prior to the general hunt where we...that is, the state, not some so called sportsman group...auctions off a predetermined number of hunts to raise the extra money needed to operate the DWS.

Split season?...just another dumb idea


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't see a need to split it. Just make the whole thing longer and hunters will split it themselves. The hunt should include AT LEAST 2 full weekends though.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Packout, In my area and I think in most, when there's more pressure to push the deer around. More deer get killed. It was pressure from other hunters that help my friend spot and then kill one of the biggest bucks in the state this year. Several of the bigger bucks I was watching the year, disappeared after the second weekend of the archery hunt. 
Also, I don't believe hunters will ever disperse themselves throughout a unit . They will always go where the deer are, no matter how crowded it gets.
For that reason I do like the smaller units, as long as tag numbers are kept in check. 
People will always hunt opening day the hardest too. No matter how long the season is.
I'm saying I like this proposal but I can see some positives. 
I'm still wondering what UWCs stance on this issue is?


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Ridge,

As of right now, there is no official UWC stance on a split rifle hunt. We haven't taken this issue to the next level as of yet, nor have we polled our membership. Personally, I believe the idea has enough merit to warrent further investigations and discussions. Right now, I am riding the fence, I can see positives and negatives with the issue.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

This is just more hunter micro management. Utah needs to grow the deer herd, not more hunter management.

Hunt on Monday - Thursday if you don't want anyone else around why'll you hunt. 

Mid-week it is ghost town.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Packout said:


> I would like to hear the proponents of the split seasons explain how a Split Season will help mule deer. Not how it helps hunters, but how it helps mule deer.
> 
> As for hunters-- with the smaller units, we have diluted the permit base to draw from. When we split those units' permits into more hunts then we create even a smaller pool to draw from. Hunting as a group- for rifle hunters- will be made harder by this proposal. And all for what? Besides crowding (perceived crowding), what does split season hunting accomplish?


What Packout said... why? why? why? why? why? What benefit(s) are there to the wildlife for splitting the season? As a hunter, I can see the benefits for me/you, but how will it improve the deer's habitat, reduce road kill, improve winter survival rates for fawns, etc... GROW OUR HERDS?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Longfeather said:


> This is just more hunter micro management. Utah needs to grow the deer herd, not more hunter management.
> 
> Hunt on Monday - Thursday if you don't want anyone else around why'll you hunt.
> 
> Mid-week it is ghost town.


It is about the deer heard. Its also about maximizing the amount of tags on a dwindling resource.

When deer numbers go down tags go down. It should be simple to understand.

There is also a social aspect to hunting. If we had deer out the wazoo no one would give a rip about the camp next door. It aint the 60's-80's deer herd were talking about.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Ridge- I'll say that the areas I have hunted in and I'd guess in most, when there is less pressure it is easier for the hunters to kill the bucks. I understand your points on the smaller units, but this proposal increases the time the deer are hunted by 50% and reduces the pressure on the deer during that extended time. Unpressured bucks are easier to kill-- in most cases I have encountered. Especially mature bucks. It also gives people 2 opening days, one of which falls on a Monday and will increase the length of time those hunters spend afield.

Would anyone, given the choice, rather hunt with 300 hunters or 150? Why would you choose less hunters? I'd wager it is because less competition is more fun AND mainly because it would be easier to kill the bucks you are after. 

So we have one vote that says it will save bucks because they won't get pushed as much. Any other claims as to how the Split Seasons will help the deer herd? I'd be all for it if I could see reward to the herds.


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## Stunnerphil (Oct 3, 2012)

I would like to do a late hunt when it is cooler


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

I completely agree with Longfeather. I no longer buy into the massive, unending changes to hunter management. Don't you fellow hunters tire of it? When is it enough? Massive changes haven't worked very well the past 20 years. Why is this one going to help? 

I completely disagree with swbuckmasters push to maximize tags over a dwindling resource. Figure out how to increase fawns and their survival, and this all goes away. Maximizing tags over a dwindling resources translates into low success rates. I'm not really interested in hunts with low success rates, nor am I impressed when success rates decrease. Let's increase the herd and increase success rates. That sounds a lot more fun. 

If you think there is a crowding problem on the deer hunt, you haven't been hunting very long. It is as low as it has ever been.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Please your taking what i said and throwing your own spin in it.

You know what grows more fawns provider? Low predator numbers, good winters, good summer moisture. Until you can control them dont tell me how to grow more deer. In case you haven't noticed we banned 1080. 

If i go by your philosophy we should issue 400,000 tags and our deer herd would be growing by leaps and bounds. This is false and you know it. No we need to manage hunters to the size of our deer population period. Life time liscense holders want their cake, rifle hunters want the rut and most tags cake, bowhunters want the whole state cake and no crossbows cake, you for all i know have privite property so you want your high tag cake, and horn hunters want their cake.

If hunters would quit thinking of themselves something could get done but they wont. Utah is a me state. 

Im probably the only guy on here that is thinking of all types of hunters and has a proposal thats fair for all but it pisses the me/you types off.

My system is 33% 33% 33% weapon allocation. 15 day hunts for all weapons. Or you only get one one tag and you hunt all weapons. If you choose to not hunt with a lesser weapon then you forfeit your own hunting days. No dedicated guys hunting for three years in a row. No everyone is equal. Tag numbers are set to buck doe ratios. 

Spin it provider tell me how im unfair and show me the "you" side of it.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I think we should ban archery and give all those tags to rifle hunters. :shock:


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Fine i could give a chit less. Im not a bow only guy like you think i am.

It shows the you side dont it and why its so hard to get anything done in this me state


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

The UWC hasn't address this idea but speaking personally I have always like the idea of split season dates for rifle. I do tend to agree with Packout though that we need to give the current strategies some time to gather data.

Like archerben said though it sounds like this may be addressed again in the near future. In fact the only reason I think it was tabled was due to the deer plan changes.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Im probably the only guy on here that is thinking of all types of hunters and has a proposal thats fair for all but it **** the me/you types off.


As long as they're not Lifetime License holders.

Seems to me like the opening day of most hunts is when most of the animals are taken. More people want the first crack at them. They tend to schedule their time off to be there when the shooting starts, rather than hunt the last few minutes of the season. So, let's have two opening weekends?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Fine i could give a chit less. Im not a bow only guy like you think i am.
> 
> It shows the you side dont it and why its so hard to get anything done in this me state


I was only kidding and my comment wasn't aimed at you. Just the guys who hate archery and think it's evil.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> The UWC hasn't address this idea but speaking personally I have always like the idea of split season dates for rifle. I do tend to agree with Packout though that we need to give the current strategies some time to gather data.
> 
> Like archerben said though it sounds like this may be addressed again in the near future. In fact the only reason I think it was tabled was due to the deer plan changes.


Bull and stillhunter, thanks for responding and I agree with you guys. Like it or not people. This split season will be addressed again in the near future.

Packout, I agree with what your saying about the way you and I hunt. Less people is better when a person does a lot of scouting and uses the spot and stalk method. But most people just sit on a rocky point overlooking a saddle or flat and hope others will push something to them. This is when more people in the field helps.


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