# Can you "Game" the system?



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I have read posts a number of times from members like Goofy Elk, SpringVille Shooter and others hinting, if not coming right out and saying, that they know of methods to "game" or cheat, or should I just say "optimize their chances" of a successful LE draw. Perhaps you fellers would like to share a couple of your secret methods.

I know I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can't figure a way around the rules. If there are really ways around the rules, it seems most ethical people would expose the flaws in the system so remedial steps could be taken. To be a bit hyperbolic, if there was a way around the laws against murder, would it justify you murdering someone?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The only one that I am aware of where they are beating the system is on general season deer tags. They will put in for a unit that they know that they won't draw just to get the preference point and then as their second choice the unit that they really want. Supposedly the draw gods see that they have preference points so they carry over to the second choice and they get preferred pick for that choice and still gain a point for their unsuccessful first choice. 

Other than that I don't know how anyone could cheat the LE draws since they go by bonus points and all the tags are taken on the first go around. Other than putting in for archery were they don't need as many points to draw a tag such as a any weapon tag.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I am not aware of any "secret" methods for increasing your draw odds but a few strategies do come to mind.

1) With the new hunter mentoring program in place you could start putting everyone in your family in for the draw to build points and increase your odds simply by having more entries. When the person draws, they just tag along while you hunt off of their permit.

2) Spend a lot of money and time entering drawings at Expo's, Sportsman Tags, Banquets, etc...those are tags that are outside of the normal draw system and would allow the lucky hunter to hunt an LE unit.

3) Diagnose every hunt unit and move your choice to the one that offers you the best odds for your point tier from year to year.

4) Become good friends with landowners that receive Landowner tags so they will sell you one on the cheap every once in a while.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Guys, only one line is needed for a response:

Out of State.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I'd like to know how. I can't draw a manti ML deer tag, which is a huge unit, but then I draw my 3rd choice in a tiny ogden unit.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Not so much gaming the system, but my friends in the Dedicated Hunter program hunt their favorite unit every single year.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Not to many years ago all the successful hunters who drew tags had their names posted publically. Anyone could look up and see familiar names show up more frequently than others. Some very specific individuals seemed to have crazy good luck, to draw OIL's year after year, species to species.

Now they keep the names hidden, one can only guess what is going on now with people drawing more frequently than others. I wonder if one can GRAMA a list of everyone who drew and run some comparisons.


-DallanC


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

utahgolf said:


> I'd like to know how. I can't draw a manti ML deer tag, which is a huge unit, but then I draw my 3rd choice in a tiny ogden unit.


Ogden is like 99% private. More public, more competition and lower odds.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Ogden is like 99% private. More public, more competition and lower odds.


I was just more in shock of not drawing the manti.... I rarely ever run into hunters when I'm out hiking, and the area is HUUUUUUUGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

utahgolf said:


> I was just more in shock of not drawing the manti.... I rarely ever run into hunters when I'm out hiking, and the area is HUUUUUUUGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE.


Yeah I am fairly surprised, mainly because it is ML!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Last year 2013 you needed 2 points to guarantee a Manti Ml tag out of 526 applicants with 1 point 511 drew. Those with 2 points went 32 for 32


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

I understand your pain golf I didn't draw manti archery,I drew fourth choice wasatch west ML which is fine. Im really happy im hunting and this unit is really close with a lot of high country I have been wanting to hunt but it had to be the year I went and bought all the archery gear!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

brendo said:


> I understand your pain golf I didn't draw manti archery,I drew fourth choice wasatch west ML which is fine. Im really happy im hunting and this unit is really close with a lot of high country I have been wanting to hunt but it had to be the year I went and bought all the archery gear!


 This doesn't sound too bad. Purchase the archery elk permit and go hunt the Wasatch West unit. There are a lot of elk and it will give you a great chance to scout out some areas for the ML deer hunt. It's also a really good unit for deer. In fact, I have been seeing more deer in this area this year than in years past.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

No way to cheat the LE and OIL that I know of, but there is a loophole in the general drawing where once you are ahead of the pack in points, you can put in for a hard tag each year and draw your second choice ahead of everyone else while still earning a point. I'm sure it will be changing soon.--------SS


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## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

Critter, I had 2 points last year and put in for manti ml tag and didn't draw. My brother inlaw and his son had 0 points and drew. How does that happen?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

muzzlehunter said:


> Critter, I had 2 points last year and put in for manti ml tag and didn't draw. My brother inlaw and his son had 0 points and drew. How does that happen?


Hunt #1583 page 197-------2013 ML deer manti:
http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2013/13_general_deer.pdf

EVERYONE with 2 points drew.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

Springville Shooter said:


> No way to cheat the LE and OIL that I know of, but there is a loophole in the general drawing where once you are ahead of the pack in points, you can put in for a hard tag each year and draw your second choice ahead of everyone else while still earning a point. I'm sure it will be changing soon.--------SS


I have to say that it sort of sucks that everybody expects this to change just that I'm beginning to build points, and beginning to understand how this works ... :shock:


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

muzzlehunter said:


> Critter, I had 2 points last year and put in for manti ml tag and didn't draw. My brother inlaw and his son had 0 points and drew. How does that happen?





goofy elk said:


> Hunt #1583 page 197-------2013 ML deer manti:
> http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2013/13_general_deer.pdf
> 
> EVERYONE with 2 points drew.


Actually it is hunt 1563 but still everyone with 2 points drew. There were 32 applicants and 32 tags, even non residents went 1 for 1.

Are you sure you put in for the right hunt?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Critter said:


> Actually it is hunt 1563 but still everyone with 2 points drew. There were 32 applicants and 32 tags, even non residents went 1 for 1.
> 
> Are you sure you put in for the right hunt?


On the row with 1 preference point, it says 526 applicants and 511 tags were drawn, why does it show success as 1 in 1.0?? Doesn't that mean 15 people didn't draw?

I answered my own question.. It is 1 in 1.02935 that drew. Still a little silly to say 1 in 1


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## jshuag (Jan 16, 2014)

I have a friend who bought a lifetime Utah License back when the state still gave them out decades ago. As a part of the deal he gets to choose where ever he gets to hunt each year without the draw. He picks up the phone, tells DWR what tag he wants and they mail it to him. 

Suffice it to say that this is no longer available. I don't know if he does it for every animal but he does do it for deer each year. 

I cannot verify this. But this is what he told me with his own lips. 

So if this is true then there are individuals who do get to go where they want each year regardless of what the draw is doing.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

RandomElk16 said:


> On the row with 1 preference point, it says 526 applicants and 511 tags were drawn, why does it show success as 1 in 1.0?? Doesn't that mean 15 people didn't draw?
> 
> I answered my own question.. It is 1 in 1.02935 that drew. Still a little silly to say 1 in 1


That is actually my type of luck. I can put in for a hunt that offers 199 tags with 200 applicants and be the one that doesn't draw.


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## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

Yeah, been hunting utah my whole life think I know how to put in for tags. Also know my brother inlaw had 0 points cause he drew out on manti the year before. But then again I may not be sure what unit we was on, lol.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

muzzlehunter said:


> Yeah, been hunting utah my whole life think I know how to put in for tags. Also know my brother inlaw had 0 points cause he drew out on manti the year before. But then again I may not be sure what unit we was on, lol.


You might want to go the the Draw Results Page and verify what you have put in for. For the ML hunt all of the Manti area is one big hunt which includes the 3 units.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

This post has turned out pretty good. So it looks like you can't really "Cheat" and win, but you can improve your odds for the general season deers hunt by manipulating the preference point system. My only concern is that the area that I really want to hunt...in my case for historic reasons... my become the target for you manipulator's "1st choice", leaving me in a situation of trying to draw against extremely high odds. Seems that this trend my start to feed upon itself to the point were everyone puts in for the same " 1st choice" area because of the low probability to draw and the low probability becomes the reason they put in for that area. Hypothetically, every person putting in could put in for the same area as their "1st choice" leaving those hunters that really want to hunt that area up against very long odds. 

At some level, this just doesn't seem right. Looks to me like an easy fix...just make your preference point only usable toward the area that was your "1st choice" when the point was awarded. I guess I have a new cause


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

During the last Wildlife Board meeting, the UDWR gave a presentation on how they plan to deal with preference point draws going forward. They will probably present the change during one of the Fall RACs. This was probably the last year for people to use the aforementioned strategy.


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## Cbaka27 (May 27, 2011)

I have been hunting the Manti for several years. The last 6 years I have only drawn every other year for ML Deer tags.


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## kstorrs (Oct 29, 2012)

The easy way to "cheat" is to go dedicated and get that tag that you want but will never draw because all of the dedicated hunters and lifetime license holders go for that unit.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

kstorrs said:


> The easy way to "cheat" is to go dedicated and get that tag that you want but will never draw because all of the dedicated hunters and lifetime license holders go for that unit.


The only unit that I know of that happening on is the Plateau Thousand Lake unit. And in my opinion that unit isn't that good.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Packout said:


> During the last Wildlife Board meeting, the UDWR gave a presentation on how they plan to deal with preference point draws going forward. They will probably present the change during one of the Fall RACs. This was probably the last year for people to use the aforementioned strategy.


What is their plan? Can you share? I'd definitely like to hear about it.

Re: lifetime licenses-- jshuag--your friend doesn't pick up the phone and call, but fills out the application online like everyone else. But you are right in that lifetime license holders get first crack at any general season deer tag before the draw. They stop selling them in 1994. I'm glad my dad had the foresight to suggest to me that I should spend $500 from my paper route and buy one of those. I wasn't even old enough to deer hunt at the time (13). As part of the license you get your combination hunting/fishing license and a general season deer tag each year. It doesn't apply to LE, OIL, or other big game species. Pretty sweet deal, I must admit. It was the best investment I've ever made.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Just as a tidbit of information here on LL, I got in touch with Amy and she came up with some figures on the LL. 

There were 4,606 of them sold. So there is $2,303,000 that went to the DOW over the span that they were sold. Around 10 years.
There are 4,484 still active
There were 3,869 tags issued this year to LL holders

That was also the best $500 that I spent back in the mid 80's


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> Just as a tidbit of information here on LL, I got in touch with Amy and she came up with some figures on the LL.
> 
> There were 4,606 of them sold. So there is $2,303,000 that went to the DOW over the span that they were sold. Around 10 years.
> There are 4,484 still active
> ...


Critter, these numbers are why I always laugh when people get all hot and bothered over LL holders.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

It is also the reason the reason that I think giving the LL holders a five to ten year warning that "hey we messed up it's ending" should not be a big thing. It was a stupid idea that ended for a reason. Good thing they didn't do it for moose.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It is too bad that they don't offer some kind of LL for those who didn't get one. I can understand that they would not be able to get one that also included the deer tag but one for fishing and small game would go a long ways. 

Also on the numbers that I posted I didn't find out about how many of them were also dedicated hunters. Two years ago when I was stupid and hunted Thousand Lakes just about everyone that I ran into had a LL along with a dedicated hunter tag.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> It is also the reason the reason that I think giving the LL holders a five to ten year warning that "hey we messed up it's ending" should not be a big thing. It was a stupid idea that ended for a reason. Good thing they didn't do it for moose.


It only included what was offered on the combination license. Fishing, small game, and deer. Any other tag had to be purchased. At that time the combo license cost around $15.00 when I purchased mine and I figured that it would take around 15 years to get what I spent on the LL before I started to see any net profit so to say.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Oh, it would be a big deal to those of us that bought them, I assure you that.

They aren't ending lifetime licenses. Why? Because LL aren't the problem with deer hunting in Utah. In fact, they aren't even *A* problem with deer hunting in Utah. They are only a problem for those that didn't get one. Nothing to do with the deer or the hunt.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

agreed. They are a problem for those that didn't get one, those that can't draw every year and those that will never have the chance to get one. I don't have a problem with them myself other than just the fact that they were a stupid idea. I will hunt every year that I want to........... somewhere.


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

How to game the system...

1. Have numerous non-hunting family members and friends apply for preference points. After a few years you will be able to put in a group application with a different preference point collector and get a deer tag every year.

2. Have numerous non-hunting family members and friends apply for LE bonus points. After you finally draw a LE tag you will be able to put in a group application for a different species with one of your bonus point collectors instead of having to start all over collecting bonus points again.

3. Have non-hunting family members apply for LE and OIL tags. If they draw out one of their kids can legally party hunt with their permit under the new "mentor" program.

I'm sure there are other ways to game the system I have not thought of but this should get you started.

Good luck.

One afterthought... all of the gaming I just mentioned could be easily eliminated by simply raising the application fee to discourage such behavior.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well, Oldtimer is paying attention.....

And his radical ideas would work to lower draw odds ...

BUT, it would also push the blue collars guys out of huntung.


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

Fowlmouth said:


> This doesn't sound too bad. Purchase the archery elk permit and go hunt the Wasatch West unit. There are a lot of elk and it will give you a great chance to scout out some areas for the ML deer hunt. It's also a really good unit for deer. In fact, I have been seeing more deer in this area this year than in years past.


Im actually really excited for this hunt I have been out scouting a few times already and its looking good. I plan on doing a high country backpacking hunt so It should be fun. My friend drew the Manti archery so I am going to buy a archery elk tag and hunt with him! I appreciate the tip though!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

People who think that there will be more than a handful who abuse the mentor system remind me of my tin foil hat wearing father in law. If we're making up far out dooms day scenarios, why stop there? Imagine if next year every person who bought a big game tag in Utah was successful.......doomsday is coming. 

I think that the mentor program will have nil effects on applications and will lower success rates. Not to ruin a good story though.

My families strategy using the mentor program actually led to less applications in the antlerless draw. My wife and I decided to forego pulling the trigger on cows and does for the next 5 years while we have eligible youth so we put ourselves in and left them out of the draws. We only need 1 elk each year so we are set up to draw on opposite years. Saves us application fees, saves us having too many tags in one year, and RAISES your odds of drawing the zone we hunt.-----SS


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## RoosterKiller (May 27, 2011)

I just did. My cc got hit today for the 4th year in a row. Oh yeah! :grin:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Hey rooster, I can't tell if you drew an antlerless tag this year it not. The 5 different threads you've posted about are a little ambiguous. Please clarify---did your CC get hit for antlerless?


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## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

TS30 said:


> Critter, these numbers are why I always laugh when people get all hot and bothered over LL holders.


To say there is no reason to be concerned with the way lifetime license holders are handled with deer tags is pretty ignorant imo. There is ample evidence with the Thousand Lakes situation that says a lot of them will hotspot. It only took a couple hundred lifetimers to screw up the drawing for the Thousand Lakes deer hunting unit in 2012 (I think only about 20 tags went through the drawing that year out of 400). I remember that the biologist at the southern rac meeting said they recommended way more tags than they should have on that unit because of the hotspotting.

Further, if the deer points and units (general and LE) are to go through one drawing in the future then the rules HAVE to be redefined for the lifetimers by either capping the % of tags per unit just like dedicated hunters are capped per unit or limiting them to only certain units that have plenty of tags to go around.

What makes me laugh is when lifetimers rag on dedicated hunters, I'm not saying you do but in my experience that's all lifetimers ever had to say when someone rags on them for taking too many tags for a unit. Look at it this way, all lifetimers have the opportunity to be a part of the dedicated hunter prgram, nobody including dedicated hunters have the opportunity to become a lifetimer now. The dedicated hunter program did and continues to do more for wildlife than the lifetime license program ever did IMO. If the dwr bought 15,000 acres of critical winter range for $150 an acre back in the 80's with all the $500 fees then the lifetime license holders may have given back something as long lasting as the lifetime license, but the trade still wasn't equal imo.

Just some thoughts.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I guess I'm ignorant, then. But was smart enough at 13 to buy one with money I earned myself. I guess I'll take 'ignorant' as a trade...


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

flinger, you bring up some very interesting and good points. The thing is that when LL's were issued the system was set up totally different. There were no draws for general season deer hunting. The deer permits were sold over the counter, and we didn't have the mess we have today. LL's were set up in a way so a person would have lifetime privileges of hunting. I don't see how the state could legally break their own contract, if you will, with the folks that legally purchased the LL. I think it will be tough to get restrictions placed on those with LL's. I'm still kicking myself for not getting one in 1994 when I had the chance.:sad:


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

It will be interesting to see what happens when there are no more general tag. I've wrestled with this issue and come to the conclusion that the state should honor their deal....as stupid and short sided as it was. Unfortunately a generation who had nothing to do with the deal has to deal with the repercussions. I have no issue with the people who took advantage of the program they were at the right place at the right time. It's too bad that they couldn't allocate a certain number of tags for each zone for lifetimers to disperse the impact on the rest of society but I guess that's not in the contract. I think that a 10% cap per zone would be appropriate.-------SS


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of the zones actually have more than 10% LL allocated as it stands today?


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## RoosterKiller (May 27, 2011)

TS30 said:


> Hey rooster, I can't tell if you drew an antlerless tag this year it not. The 5 different threads you've posted about are a little ambiguous. Please clarify---did your CC get hit for antlerless?


Well,I guess I should not beat around the bush anymore... Yes. My cc got hit for 4 elk tags. Noe the secret is out!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

With the numbers that I have there are 3,869 tags issued to LL holders this year, and if there are 84,000 general season permits issued then that come out to 5% of the tags to LL holders. Sounds like a small group to me.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter, yes...a small number indeed. 

Rooster, good on ya! Cow hunts are fun. Hoping my card gets hit for one as well.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

The LLer are guaranteed a tag. Make them apply for 5 units, if they end up with their 5th choice, tough $hit, at least they get their tag. The guaranteed choice is crap.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

bugchuker said:


> The LLer are guaranteed a tag. Make them apply for 5 units, if they end up with their 5th choice, tough $hit, at least they get their tag. The guaranteed choice is crap.


How about the dedicated hunters getting 3 tags a year

-O\\__-


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Dead horse for sure. The system isn't changing without other extremely drastic changes to Utah's hunts. So be careful what you wish for. And LL aren't the problem with deer hunting in Utah. But we can keep doing the song and dance for as long as sour grapes require...


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

Scuttle both programs and see how sour the grapes are. The LL or DH weren't designed with the "option two" in mind. It doesn't work. Hopefully they will combine tag pools, go to one draw, no LE and GS.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

BTW I have max GS points so the "game" is in my favor now, it doesn't mean its right though.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

What ever do mean Mr. Chuker? That someone would unselfishly recognize the unfairness in something that exclusively benefits them? That's preposterous!------SS


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

TS30 said:


> Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of the zones actually have more than 10% LL allocated as it stands today?


Not many.....that's the problem. Less than 5% percent of the total number make up 90% in the most desirable unit"s". -------SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Springville Shooter said:


> Not many.....that's the problem. Less than 5% percent of the total number make up 90% in the most desirable unit"s". -------SS


Two years ago when they opened up Thousand Lake Mountain to general season I was one of the stupid ones that got one of those permits. I will admit that I thought that it was going to be a great hunt. It couldn't of been further than the truth. 
I will also say that the vast majority of the hunters there were Dedicated Hunters, I will also admit that there were quite a few LL holders but those that I talked to were both and not just one.

This is the only hunt that I have seen that has the problem of the LL and DH taking all the tags but in my opinion the joke was on us.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Critter,
Whether or not it ended up being a great hunt, my point is that as we move forward with the Option 2 system, better and best units are developing and each year some are attracting increasing demand. As these develop, the LL folks will undoubtedly flock to these best units as they should. This is where the problem perpetuates. 5000 is not a large number when diluted within the entire pool. But 5000 becomes problematic in specific units where they can dominate the tag pool. I don't have a "good" solution to this SNAFU created in the past by those who didn't think it out. Typical govt probably wanted a quick influx of cash and didn't care what the end result would be. Unfortunately someone has to lose. Either the 5000 LL holders get screwed, or the rest of those seeking tags will get screwed. Less than ideal either way. Hopefully someone can come up with an amicable solution. I cannot see one.

Same with the preference point fiasco. I sat out for two years to get the jump on the tag pool. Now I enjoy being able to pull a tag and a point each year in great part because the LL and DH guys dominate the 1000 Lakes tag. I am not ignorant enough to think that this entitles me to anything or that it will continue in the future even though I was smart enough to recognize the opportunity and make the sacrifice to put myself into the advantageous position that I am in.---------SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't know how many DH hunters there are out there and I didn't ask Amy for it when I got the numbers of LL tags issued each year. It might be interesting to find out just how many there are along with a accounting of hours or money that they put into the system each year and for the hours what projects they were working on. As was mentioned elsewhere some are getting hours for being at a banquet which has nothing to do with hunting. It is my opinion they should be out working in the field for those hours or being mentors to young hunters that want to take a interest in hunting. 
The PP thing is something that needs to be fixed, I have said it before that I can't believe that they would leave such a loophole in the system where it bypasses hunters that should be drawing tags in favor of hunters that have points and draw the tag as a second choice. Also something needs to be done on the leftover archery tags that turn into ML tags that turn into general season tags. I know of hunters that didn't even put in for a tag in the draw only to purchase one OTC before those who put in for the draw got one. 

There are a lot of question with very few answers and you will never please everyone with what happens in the future.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The number is not 5000 for deer tags. The number is closer to 3000 than 5000. I know about the Thousand Lakes fiasco. That was/is an isolated situation, in my opinion. I asked what I asked about how many units already have more than 5% of the tags are currently going to LL, because I think there are a handful making a mountain out of a molehill here. I hope someone has that info and will chime in here. 

I have zero desire to go hunt a general season unit that is far away from me that I have never stepped foot in my life. I hardly think I am alone on that.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

So do you think the next unit to be made into a general unit from an LE unit will have a different outcome? I don't.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Just in case someone hasn't read all the post on here I'll give the numbers again that I got from Amy. 

There were 4,606 LL sold over 10 years. 
There are 4,484 LL are still active
There were 3,869 general season tags issued this year to LL holders

That is less than 5% of the total number of general season tags that went to LL holders

A couple other numbers. 20% of the tags went to youth which amount to 16,800 and there are over 3,000 youth archery tags left over, and from what I know they are only available to the youth hunters.


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