# $1 million, 4 games, and 2 draft picks?



## GaryFish

Enough? Too much? About right? What do you think?


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## GeTaGrip

I despise Bill and the New England cheaters, but this is very extreme for the equivalent of a speeding ticket.


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## Rspeters

About right for Brady I think, if anything I would have liked to see it a bit higher, like around 6, just because of his refusal to cooperate. I was surprised they lost their 1st round pick, but don't think it'll really affect them too much.

All in all, when you take into account the money saved by the Patriots in not having to pay Brady for the 4 games, or first round money, the Patriots are actually going to save a bit of money.

I think they should have fined Bellichick directly, because even if he had no part of this, it's obvious that he's created a culture of cheating and bending the rules.

I'm guessing Brady will appeal it on the basis that there's no hard proof that he was a part of it, and his suspension will be dropped down to two.


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## MuscleWhitefish

Roger "I'm still trying to make up for the Ray Rice situation" Goodell

Everyone


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## Skally

Not enough...1 million is pocket change.
Cheaters shouldn't be rewarded with championships


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## utahgolf

what is the penalty for pine tar and stick em? That is how this should be viewed. Not a big deal and didn't make much of a difference but still a rule and should be penalized. I think it was steep and this was for goodell to make up for the debacle of the ray rice thing. But also to avoid questions of favoritism between him and the patriots owner. I think he acted like a prosecutor, charged a bit more aggressively but knows it will be appealed and maybe pushed down to 2 games.


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## Packfish

I can't believe this even had the chance to happen- the NFL should have control of all the balls period.


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## Dodger

Superbowl Champions*

The message is that cheating is mostly tolerated. Just on principle they should be stripped of the AFC title and the Superbowl title.

Brady knew what he was doing. The guys who deflated the balls knew what they were doing. They did it to have an unfair advantage. Whether deflating the balls resulted in an advantage or not, their intent was still to give themselves an advantage by fraud.

Competition is meaningless if it isn't honest.

I would have banned Brady, the deflators, and anyone else who knew or should have known that the balls were tampered with from the NFL for life. You don't play nice with cancer. You cut it out and kill it.


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## GaryFish

So by that, the 49ers should be stripped of 3 of their 4 titles because Jerry Rice used stickum on his hands IN the Superbowl. 

Holding is against the rules in football. As is jumping off sides, facemasking, roughing the kicker, pass interference, encroachment, etc..... Breaking any of those rules is cheating, unless caught - then it is a penalty. But breaking them without getting caught - is cheating.

The Vikings put all of their balls in a ball warmer last year during a home game to gain an advantage, and were given a warning. 

Several teams pumped in crowd noise during games to gain advantage. 

Back in the day, Lavell Edwards had his offensive linemen wear gloves that matched the color of the opposing teams jersey so they could hold without being seen. Coach Edwards would also let the grass grow extremely tall if they faced a team with more speed to even things up with his slow white guys. 

Which is why I'm not hearing ANY current NFL players calling for the kind of penalty received here. And outside a few loud mouths who's talk was always much bigger and louder than their game (like Keshawn Johnson), no former players are saying much either. 

My own thought is Brady and the Pats got busted doing something every other QB and team does - doctor the football. And they should be punished. But this punishment is not about just this infraction. It is the same as in the 5th game of the season, the ref calling holding on a team and saying "but instead of the customary 10 yard penalty, it will be 30 yards because in the 3rd game, the team also had 2 pass interference calls and jumped off sides twice."


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## Mr Muleskinner

While I think the 1st round draft pick is an insanely harsh penalty........getting caught and going to court goes a whole lot smoother if you don't lie to the authorities or the judge before the sentence is passed. 

Pete Rose, Lance Armstrong, Tonya Harding, Barry Bonds will all attest to that.

If my kids mess up and then tell the truth things go much smoother for them as well.

Personally I don't think all of these penalties will stick.


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## riptheirlips

Skally said:


> Not enough...1 million is pocket change.
> Cheaters shouldn't be rewarded with championships


Agree with you, this 1 million penalty costs the Patriots zero, they actually make money with this punishment.

1. Brady is suspended for 4 games, now the Patriots do not have to pay him approx. 4 million so they pay 1 million fine and pocket 3 million.

2. Patriots do not receive first round draft pick, now they do not have to pay the required 1st round draft pick contract (millions) they keep that money in their pocket, and can pursue a free agent.

Kraft and Goddell are buddies I believe they worked this all out.


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## Dodger

GaryFish said:


> So by that, the 49ers should be stripped of 3 of their 4 titles because Jerry Rice used stickum on his hands IN the Superbowl.
> 
> Holding is against the rules in football. As is jumping off sides, facemasking, roughing the kicker, pass interference, encroachment, etc..... Breaking any of those rules is cheating, unless caught - then it is a penalty. But breaking them without getting caught - is cheating.
> 
> The Vikings put all of their balls in a ball warmer last year during a home game to gain an advantage, and were given a warning.
> 
> Several teams pumped in crowd noise during games to gain advantage.
> 
> Back in the day, Lavell Edwards had his offensive linemen wear gloves that matched the color of the opposing teams jersey so they could hold without being seen. Coach Edwards would also let the grass grow extremely tall if they faced a team with more speed to even things up with his slow white guys.
> 
> Which is why I'm not hearing ANY current NFL players calling for the kind of penalty received here. And outside a few loud mouths who's talk was always much bigger and louder than their game (like Keshawn Johnson), no former players are saying much either.
> 
> My own thought is Brady and the Pats got busted doing something every other QB and team does - doctor the football. And they should be punished. But this punishment is not about just this infraction. It is the same as in the 5th game of the season, the ref calling holding on a team and saying "but instead of the customary 10 yard penalty, it will be 30 yards because in the 3rd game, the team also had 2 pass interference calls and jumped off sides twice."


I think, for the first time ever, I have to disagree with you Gary.

Was it against the rules to use stickum on your hands in the superbowl? If it was, did he show the refs his hands, have them approved, and then put the stickum on after that? If so, yes. I would strip them of 3/4 titles and ban Jerry Rice.

The football rules you cited (holding, facemasks, RK, PI, etc) are subjective rules. You may disagree with the Referee's opinion of what constitutes a penalty but since the standard is subjective, I wouldn't agree that not getting called for something is cheating.

For the Vikings, was there a rule against putting the football in a warmer to keep it warm? Did they spirit away footballs during the game to warm them up so only they had warm footballs when their offense was on the field? I doubt there was a rule that said "no warming footballs" before they were putting footballs in the warmer. And, when the NFL found out, they said "quit it, that's unfair." And the Vikings quit it.

Again, pumping in crowd noise is not the same as what the Pats did. There isn't an approved level of crowd noise which was inspected, and then fraudulently changed after inspection.

The same is true with what Lavell allegedly did. The OL gloves weren't inspected, approved, and fraudulently changed afterwards. Lavell wasn't running around getting the grass to grow longer after the referees put a ruler on it to make sure it was within specs.

Your examples are the equivalent of trying to say it should be a crime to wear gloves during a robbery. Who cares about the gloves when we already have laws against robbery?

None of these are examples of the same kind of thing that the Pats did. Their footballs were inspected and approved. After they were inspected and approved, someone fraudulently altered the footballs to give the Patriots only a fraudulently obtained advantage over the other team. The footballs were altered so secretly that for a month no one could even figure out how the balls were altered. Furthermore, based on the evidence, it appears that there was a conspiracy to deflate the footballs. In other words, everyone involved knew it was wrong and took steps to conceal their actions. Everyone involved knew it was against the rules. Everyone involved knew they would be in trouble if they were caught. And they did it anyway to gain an advantage. That's what makes this so heinous.


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## Mr Muleskinner

They had there rings picked out prior to winning as well.


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## GaryFish

Fair enough Dodger. I used the examples to show that individuals and teams are always pushing the line of the rules. The question here isn't if Brady and the Patriots are guilty. Though there is no evidence to prove it, I believe they jacked with the footballs and should be punished. The question is if the penalty fits the infraction. 

Putting stick'um on your hands WAS illegal. There was no pre-game inspection protocol in place because it was just against the rules. But every sideline had cans of stick 'um, and if caught, the refs just said "go wash that off." 

There is a rule against using artificial/amplified crowd noise during a game, so teams would have to conspire in the least with those operating the speaker system, to make that happen. And it really can't be done on accident. But those teams got slapped on the hands for doing it and nothing more. Same thing with the Vikings and the ball warmers. Some kind of conspiratorial activities had to happen to get a ball warmer on the sidelines and put the balls inside it. Again, they just got a warning. 

As for on the field infractions, receivers are taught to hand fight, position their body, and flop in order to draw a PI call. Defensive backs are taught to hand fight, position their body, and interfere with the receiver, hoping to sell it to the ref that hey didn't commit PI. Jumping off sides is not subjective - and doing so is usually the result of trying to get a jump on the play. But it is breaking the rules. 

My point of the examples is that breaking the rules does have consequence, be it 5 yards and loss of down, or a warning to not do something any more, or a fine. 

I am neither a Patriot fan, nor a hater. I think they should be punished for this conspiracy to break the rules and by tampering with the footballs after they had been approved by the officials. But I think this penalty is waaaaayyyyy overboard. And for the Commissioner to come in and basically say "You weren't punished enough for when you broke other rules back in 2007, we are going to punish you for that too" is just punitive.

The only good out of the whole deal, is that all fines collected by the NFL, are donated to the United Way. And that is cool. And I think that IF this penalty sticks, Brady's salary for the suspended game should also go the United Way, and not just be retained by the Patriots.


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## nocturnalenemy

Here is the Patriots response to the Wells Report. I just read it all. Plan for at least 30 minutes to read it. A few laughable points ("deflator" used as a weight loss term), but a pretty good rebuttal to the "evidence" presented. After reading it, I believe all the punishment will be rescinded.

http://wellsreportcontext.com/


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## GaryFish

Interesting read. I know it is a he said/she said deal. But if the Colts had four footballs that measured low as well, and the NFL suppressed that info until now, then this whole thing takes on a completely different look. AND, if a different make and model of pressure gauge was used before the game than was used at half-time? And ALL the balls for both teams showed loss of pressure consistent with differences in temperatures - something that had not previously been aknowledged by the NFL but the Patriots have been claiming all along? ----- Hmmmmmm. Aside from some of the just ridiculous stuff included, there are some pretty interesting points raised there. 

So if an arbitrator reviews stuff and says "you know what - the NFL screwed the pooch on this one. Brady and the Patriots are off the hook" - It will be interesting to see if those claiming for Brady and the Patriots to forfeit all of their super bowl titles will have much to say. Or does that even matter at this point and as the 21st century poet Taylor Swift says, "Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate."

Not saying I believe all that the Patriots had to say in their response because some of it is pretty silly. But still - the things mentioning the actual evidence are pretty compelling. 

Looking forward to the next chapter in the story for sure. It beats watching the Kardashians!


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## Dodger

I agree that the Pats shouldn't be punished retroactively for something they did before. But I wouldn't give them a pass on this, and I think the punishment is a pass.

You know how this kind of crap perpetuates itself? When they get caught, there are no penalties. If they started to lay out the ban hammer, we wouldn't be seeing this kind of crap happen. Either they are serious about the integrity of the game, or they aren't. 

I also think there is a difference in trying to use the rules to your advantage and breaking the rules to get an unfair advantage over the other team. Trying to get a flag isn't breaking the rules. Both players on both sides of the ball do that. 

Where there are rules, I think they should be enforced. If they need to start inspecting players' hands for stickum, do it. If they need someone to stand on the sidelines and look for it, do it. If they need someone in the sound booth to watch the crowd noise, do it. 

I don't like the Pats, but I don't like them because of this nefarious sort of garbage. They did more here than a minor rules infraction. They subverted the process intentionally and willfully and found ways to overcome safeguards that have been put in place to prevent the kind of thing they did. And that should draw a more forceful punishment than just a 4 game ban, fines, and loss of draft picks.


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## nocturnalenemy

I guess the main point is the League didn't prove the rules were actually broken. The Patriots statement outlines all the speculation that led to the League's conclusions (or were the conclusions reached first? Patriots make a pretty strong case for this.). 

I'm all for punishment where evidence proves wrong doing. But how can you justify any punishment at all where there is nothing beyond speculative reasoning that supports your predetermined conclusion?


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## utahgolf

nocturnalenemy said:


> I guess the main point is the League didn't prove the rules were actually broken. The Patriots statement outlines all the speculation that led to the League's conclusions (or were the conclusions reached first? Patriots make a pretty strong case for this.).
> 
> I'm all for punishment where evidence proves wrong doing. But how can you justify any punishment at all where there is nothing beyond speculative reasoning that supports your predetermined conclusion?


maybe punishment for Brady stonewalling the investigation? If he takes the league to court, those emails and text messages he has on his phone are fair game! Hope there's no funny business in his marital life either!


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## Packfish

*My Opinion is changing some what*

Why aren't these finding being made public by the media but other finding are from the same Wells report ?

3 of 4 Colts footballs checked at halftime weighed in under 12.5 PSI by one of the two officials measuring them. Then, they suddenly stopped checking. The other 8 Colts footballs simply, and conveniently, went unchecked.

Officials found both at halftime and after the AFC title clash that, "it's more more probable than not" that the Colts played the entire game with under-inflated footballs. 
.


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## Packfish

The more I dig into this the more conflicting it gets- both ways- and the saddest part about it all is that I actually spent time doing this.


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## GaryFish

My thoughts at this point are that once all the FACTS actually come out, the Patriots and Brady are going to be smiling, and the NFL is going to look the fool, and smiling. 

As more information trickles out, it is looking like the footballs used by the Colts in the game, also each lost about a pound of pressure, just like those used by the Patriots. The difference being that they started at the higher end of the allowable range, and the Patriots started at the lower end. Even with that, 3 of the 4 Colt Footballs measured below 12 1/2 psi as well. And if that is the case, then the Patriots explanation about temperature holds true - colder air - lost air pressure. 

And if that is what the facts bear out, and all the conviction in the court of public opinion coming down is all because the media jumped on partial information, and the NFL withheld all the facts of the story - well - how do they have any credibility on anything going forward? 

But the ultimate winner on it all is the NFL. It is May, with really great playoffs going on in the NBA and NHL, weather is turning nice, and yet the NFL is the lead story on Sportscenter, the subject of nearly all sports information outlets, and here we are on a freaking wildlife forum site talking about it. And I'm the one that started this thread! 

I am such a TOTAL sucker for football news and realizing just how much is pretty embarrassing. I couldn't list more than maybe 2 players on the Jazz, no way could I tell you who is still in the NBA Playoffs except I think Lebron's team beat Chicago - who does he even play for any more? And one of my Canadian facebook friends posted something or other about being sad, which I guess probably means that there are no Canadian teams left in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Again. 

Yet, I'm pretty sure I know enough about the deflating footballs thing to hold my own in any discussion in any sports bar in Boston. And that is the really sad part.


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## Dunkem

Wow Gary,that kind of is, ahhh well I dont know what it is.Hey watch a little hockey,thats a fun alternative to football.opcorn:


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## GaryFish

So Kraft isn't going to appeal the penalties. Hmmmmm. 
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...e-draft-penalties/ar-BBjY5CI?ocid=mailsignout


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## riptheirlips

GaryFish said:


> So Kraft isn't going to appeal the penalties. Hmmmmm.
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...e-draft-penalties/ar-BBjY5CI?ocid=mailsignout


No surprise there he knows he is making money with this punishment so he will leave it alone. Now all Goddell has to deal with is Brady and he will let the 4 game suspension stand just so Kraft puts Bradys salary for 4 games in his pocket. Kraft comes out with millions that he now can spend on a free agent.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Kraft cares about a few million dollars saved on a suspension about as much as he cares about losing a razor. He makes far more money off of Superbowl wins than he ever will off of suspensions.


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## riptheirlips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Kraft cares about a few million dollars saved on a suspension about as much as he cares about losing a razor. He makes far more money off of Superbowl wins than he ever will off of suspensions.


I don't know Mr. Kraft personally so I cannot agree or disagree with your comment. But I do know Goddell was going to do something and this was the way to have the least amount of impact on Mr Kraft (who is Goddells buddy), it actually helps Mr Kraft. Mr Kraft did not get wealthy by just throwing millions away like you would a razor.


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## Rspeters

riptheirlips said:


> I don't know Mr. Kraft personally so I cannot agree or disagree with your comment. But I do know Goddell was going to do something and this was the way to have the least amount of impact on Mr Kraft (who is Goddells buddy), it actually helps Mr Kraft. Mr Kraft did not get wealthy by just throwing millions away like you would a razor.


Suspending arguably the best qb in the league for a quarter of a season does not help the owner in any way, no matter how much he saves in salary. They pay Brady that salary for a reason, because it's worth it to them to have him on the field. Any money saved on salary is lost in other ways. I'd be willing to bet that saving Kraft some money through Brady's suspension didn't even cross Goodell's mind.

I bet what did cross Kraft's mind is that by not appealing this suspension, he's saving the millions of dollars he would have spent going through that process, and now Goodell might be a bit more likely to consider shortening Brady's suspension.


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## Mr Muleskinner

If the suspension cost the Patriots homefield advantage in the playoffs what is that worth?


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## riptheirlips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> If the suspension cost the Patriots homefield advantage in the playoffs what is that worth?


Nothing if the Patriots are as good as they and others think they are. Superbowl usually is not at the home field so for the Superbowl it would not matter. Patriots made the Superbowl without Belichick and Brady so I see no reason they couldn't do it again without Brady.

This should help Brady out on his appeal.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/05/bill-belichick-didnt-believe-tom-brady-deflategate


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## LostLouisianian

Kraft backed off because Goodell obviously told Kraft that a trial would make the NFL reveal everything they had which was much worse than the NFL said publicly. That's the only reason Kraft would have suddenly backed off.


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## GaryFish

So the judge threw out the suspension. Hmmmmm. And blasted it in every way possible. Does this mean Brady didn't cheat? or the level of evidence for conviction in a legal court is just different than in the NFL world? "More probable than not" is not a thing I guess. 

This pretty much rips the commish in regard to dishing out suspensions - totally ripped the commish for not having the power to do that kind of suspension without explanation. It'll be interesting to see if the NFL appeals.


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## Kwalk3

The part of me that hates Tom Brady wishes they would have stuck it to him. However, the part of me that is absolutely sick of hearing about deflate gate at every turn just wants this to be over and done with. Tom knew and probably orchestrated the ball pressure fiasco, but Goodell definitely overstepped here as well. I hope, at this point, that this all just goes away.....


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## GaryFish

The last time the NFL came down on the Patriots, they rolled out an undefeated season. And love or hate Brady - he is VERY good at his craft. I'm not a fan of any team really - just like watching football played at the highest level - something the Patriots do exceptionally well. And I'd LOVE to see a team go undefeated - any team really. Because perfection is so rare. So if this motivates the Patriots to do that - I'm all for it.


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## LostLouisianian

I dunno, those Dolphins were an exceptional team....


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## GaryFish

I wouldn't disagree with that at all. it's just I was only 3 years old when the Dolphins were perfect and I don't remember it much. ;-)


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## LostLouisianian

GaryFish said:


> I wouldn't disagree with that at all. it's just I was only 3 years old when the Dolphins were perfect and I don't remember it much. ;-)


It was pretty crazy. My best friend was a dophins fan and I was a packers fan.


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## utahgolf

stupid rule. They should allow the teams to do whatever they want with the footballs. The only thing is they have to play with that same level of psi for the whole game. and it goes for every position. If they want an under inflated ball than even the kicker will have to use that ball. So you will give up one benefit for the other. I think the judge in this case was dismissive of the entire thing because of how silly it all was.


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## Caddis-n-Cutts

I'm not sure how I missed this thread ~9 months ago... But now that it's coming to an end (I hope... maybe not not that the NFL says they will appeal) I will weigh in. 

We all know that Brady had the "Deflater" let air out of the balls, and we all know they cheated/cheat. I don't think 4 games fit the crime though, one, maybe two games would have been enough in my opinion (and I HATE the Hoody and the "Paits") 

It is a stupid rule, but still a rule that was broken and I agree that it needs to be changed. It isn't an "un-fair" advantage if both QB's get to play with a ball that they have doctored or changed to their liking.

Anyway, I can't wait for the absolute best time of the year... FALL! Hunting, great fishing, cool weather and Football!!!


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## GaryFish

See, I'm not convinced Brady did order the balls to be deflated after they were inspected. Usually when someone covers stuff up, eventually, the truth will come out. But the story hasn't changed from day 1. Buried in the Wells report (yes, I read the whole thing - I'm so pathetic), it pointed out that 4 of the Colts' footballs (they only tested 4 of the Colts' footballs, not all 12)were tested at halftime, and 3 had lost a full pound of pressure - same as 11/12 of the Patriots' footballs. The difference is at pre-game testing, they were at the max end of the allowable range, while the Patriots' footballs were at the bottom end. Which totally supports what the Patriots have been claiming all along about the temperature. Both Luck and Brady got to "prepare" their own footballs for the game, and Luck just liked his at the 13 1/2 pounds, so they had more air in them to start. But consistent with what the Patriots claimed all along - balls from both teams had lost a pound of pressure by halftime - something that was deliberately mis-represented by those famed "inside sources" and the media that listened to them without reporting the real facts. 

To me - the real indictment of the whole deal would be the officials that handle the footballs on every play more than the QBs of either team do. They should know, and if the rule is there, they should check the balls for air pressure say, when the other team is on offense. As I see it, any football placed on the field by the official to use on a play is a legal football. Period. If the officials knowingly placed improper footballs on the field of play, then they knowingly supported the team trying to gain any kind advantage. But certainly - the NFL didn't want that discussion to take place at all. 

All that said, isn't fall the BEST time of year? Hunting! GREAT fishing! Cool weather! And FOOTBALL!!!!


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