# The art of hating



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

In light of the Tines up big 5 point bull thread going on now and I really didn't want to hijack that thread.
I ran across this video last month and thought it had a good message.
Although I don't think that having an "anything goes" attitude is always appropriate all the time.





I do think we discredit other hunters and their trophy far too much.
Is it getting to the point that when you kill a big buck or bull, you need to state that it was killed with a non magnum rifle with open sights, under 100 yards ,while it was bedded. Also while hunting on public ground with a general season tag .
To get any credit of being a good hunter?
What do you think?


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Good stuff right there ridge...and zach griffith.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Sometimes I get so jacked up and excited when I shoot a cow on a winter hunt when I ride my horse pretty much right to it before I pull the trigger. Some on here probably dont think I'm a good or true hunter because of that. Then I hear alot about you guys who leave your truck at 2 am or midnight and hike for miles and sleep on the rocks so you will be in position at first light and I think "man!" That guy is hard core. Shane who drops a monster 5 point - at first all I see is a picture of him and the bull. My thought was dang what a bull. Didnt think more of it until I started reading all the comments. Pretty sad that some of us look down on someones success when really we are all after the same success.

My point is some people have other means to help them accomplish that goal. Some people have horses which gives them a distinct advantage, others money, and others an internal drive to hike for miles in the dark and spend weeks or months scouting. These are all specific advantages. Still others road hunt because they are lazy and are just out there hoping to get lucky and enjoy just being out with a tag in thier pocket. They shouldnt be looked down on when they drop a bruiser cuz they didnt hike for miles or saddle up a horse and pack into the wilderness. Good for them, thats the way they chose to do it and it worked out for them.

I read about ridges big deer this year several times all I could think was how hardcore he was. I thought "that guy must be 7 feet tall". That was until I met him in person.  j/k for ya ridge I'm funny. I read about MWscott72 sleeping on the rocks under a space blanket and thought "thats a guy with a plan right there". I would love to hear the story of the big 5. I'm sure its a cool story also. 

Lets all stick together here ok. We have bigger fish to fry.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Well said Jake. I think you hit the nail on the head!


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## Antler&fish (Dec 25, 2015)

Road hunters are lazy? Really, why all the hate man, did a road hunter take your road once? I thought this was a thread about love! I might be just a little confused. I would say a lot of people that use guides would fall in the same category as your so called lazy road hunters, they just have the means to hire people to put in the work and time for them. It is totally legal and of course all things legal are good, right? I thought the dude on the video wanted us to love everybody no matter how they hunt and what they kill.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Antler&fish said:


> Road hunters are lazy? Really, why all the hate man, did a road hunter take your road once? I thought this was a thread about love! I might be just a little confused. I would say a lot of people that use guides would fall in the same category as your so called lazy road hunters, they just have the means to hire people to put in the work and time for them. It is totally legal and of course all things legal are good, right? I thought the dude on the video wanted us to love everybody no matter how they hunt and what they kill.


 I don't think 3 Arabians said anything about hating road hunters, he said lazy, and went on to say that was their choice and if they get lucky then good for them.


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## Antler&fish (Dec 25, 2015)

I don't think anybody said hate in the tines up thread either. You don't have to say hate, but you sure can feel it.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Some more than others.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

"It breaks down with the fact that you're not happy with yourself, and it rips you apart to see other people smiling." 

"Hunt for your reasons, and don't worry about everyone else." 

Two very true statements. Of course, when people break the law, that is different. But if everything is legal and above board, why do we insist on breaking others down? Even if I don't agree or if they did it differently than I would have, why does it matter? 

All these criticisms are just stupid.


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## Antler&fish (Dec 25, 2015)

Is that some dunkem love?


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

"Hunt for your reasons, and don't worry about everyone else." Quote Vanilla'

Exactly:!: Nothing more needs to be said.

Dunkem love is 80 mph, wind in my face, on an old yellow Harley8) With a little Steppenwolf in my mind.*-band-*


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## Antler&fish (Dec 25, 2015)

Vanilla, feeling your love too! Why so much hate, saying and assuming what other people might feel is a much better approach! Way to go buddy!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

One word discribes this problem of 'hate' verily well,,,

Jealousy...................


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Ah man.. I am not a hunter hater... But Zac does some shady stuff guys. 


That said, the message is there. There needs to be more unity among hunters. At least on the general consensus that hunters should support other legal hunters at some capacity. For the love of our sport. 

Imagine if the NBA didn't support the D league, college, and rec/comp(a hunter other than yourself). What if all that went away? There would be no NBA anymore. When you are a minority (hunters are) we need to stick together to a degree. Archers might hate on rifle hunters, but would be made if they all moved to archery. People hate on road hunters, but what if they all left the road and were hiking/hunting in "your spot", which would bother you more? You can't stand on both sides of the fence pissed off.

It is hard not to hate some of the laws, the wildlife board, people making ridiculous profits off our wildlife, organizations that have lost their cause, etc.... but regardless of how we feel about a rule, if a hunter is following the rules we should live and let live.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)




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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Antler&fish said:


> Vanilla, feeling your love too! Why so much hate, saying and assuming what other people might feel is a much better approach! Way to go buddy!


I didn't preach love. I think all the criticisms are stupid. I'm happy with myself, so it is no issue for me to see other people smile. I would say "No offense intended", but I would not be speaking truthfully if I did.

Build a bridge and get over yourself, is what I say.


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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

Guys its not always about hate or jealousy, sometimes its more about ethics, I think that's where the appearance of "hate" or jealousy" is viewed. We all view things different, what Joe Blow thinks is an "ethical" hunt I do not, and we cant legislate ethics your way, my way or his way! I agree we need to stick together as hunters and be A LOT less judgmental.


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## Uber (May 18, 2014)

This is the same argument people use for high fence hunts. "Us hunters need to stick together no matter what".

Shooting a large bull on a solo hunt means more to me than having 15 people scout year round and telling me where to show up at 7am. 

But to each their own.


Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## bekins24 (Sep 22, 2015)

To me, if I see someone hiking for miles on end to get that trophy animal then they have to pack that out, it doesn't seem like fun to me. I'm young and in shape but the idea of that doesn't appeal to me. I am all for driving close then hiking a mile or two, but I wouldn't pass up a trophy that was staring me down as I was driving along the road, nor do I think that a lot of you guys would on here. If you can find a trophy animal close to a road why would you not do it? Easier pack out, easier to make sure that the meat stays good, etc. Then if you like hiking, go out and do a 5 mile hike for the heck of it another day when you don't have to lug your gear around.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

This goes for fishing too. Too many people are hating me for deciding that I just like to fish dry flies on creeks and streams for smallish to medium sized trout. They tell me that I am limiting myself and that I need to add to my techniques and patterns and fish lures with my fly rod. 

I don't know why they hate me for narrowing down what I do and expressing the joy I find in it.

I went through all the other techniques and styles of flies. I fished large fabled waters for bigger fish. I fished nymphs a lot through the years and dabbled with streamers. But I have settled on what I find most pleasurable and exciting for me.

Don't hate me for this. And if I show up at a sportsman show with a smile and share my excitement, my patterns, my techniques, and my enthusiasm--don't hate me.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

To me it all boils down to a _my way is the right way_ mentality and the ability to sign in to a form of social media behind an anonymous (relatively)
screen name to then denigrate, disparage, and criticize the individual who doesn't do things _my way_ with little in terms of consequences.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Notice that nearly all the posts on this thread include the words _To me_ or _I think_...


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Heck, shooting a smaller bull on a solo hunt means a lot to me. 
I always seem to be by myself when I get a bull down. :mrgreen:


Different strokes for different folks..........as Sly Stone used to sing.

Oh ya, +1 on the Steppenwolf Dunkem, and add Bob Seger.


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## bekins24 (Sep 22, 2015)

derekp1999 said:


> Notice that nearly all the posts on this thread include the words _To me_ or _I think_...


In today's world we have to be careful of offending people so it's gotta be crystal clear that it is just an opinion


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

It sure is a complex problem and it seems more and more people are becoming rather adept at hating-- especially on the Net. He has an interesting take on the video-- but I see one glaring issue in the video. (Notice how I used the term I-- so here goes my judgement. ha) 

- No, there are not enough animals for everyone. Sorry that he thinks there are, but there are not. It seems that fact causes the most angst among hunters and leads to some of the hate. Guys are sitting at home after not drawing a general season deer tag or a limited entry elk tag and they are frustrated to see others kill (some year after year) while they don't have the chance to hunt. Not many guys are arguing about a doe antelope photo.

For me, I rarely give a second thought to photos of animals which strangers post on the web. I don't see a need to put down or stroke the ego of someone I don't know.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

One could argue that hiking far and quartering an animal(or some taking that trophies head) is unethical.

If you don't eat the liver, heart, and whatever (gross) stuff wyogoob puts in his recipes, you are BAD! Quartering leaves meat, no doubt. Road hunting ensures you can put the entire animal in the bed of your truck, let him sit in the sun for a few hours and properly cure, then enable you to enjoy the ENTIRE harvest.









Uh.... lol.... :-o


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

bekins24 said:


> In today's world we have to be careful of offending people so it's gotta be crystal clear that it is just an opinion


And in today's world how often do we keep our opinions to ourselves? It's human nature to take our opinions and use them as the protocol for passing judgment upon another individual.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> I do think we discredit other hunters and their trophy far too much.
> Is it getting to the point that when you kill a big buck or bull, you need to state that it was killed with a non magnum rifle with open sights, under 100 yards ,while it was bedded. Also while hunting on public ground with a general season tag .
> To get any credit of being a good hunter?
> What do you think?


I think that whenever someone posts a pic of a buck or bull or cow or doe or whatever he/she has harvested...that person is, to a certain extent, bragging about his/her prowess as a hunter. I also think that whenever someone posts such pics that they are inviting criticism whether they want it or not. When you willfully post a pic of your success, you should expect people to criticize the means.

We all do not have the same set of ethics or values when we harvest animals; however, when we put our prowess out into the public, we should expect our prowess to be challenged according to the set of ethics that others may or may not possess. If you don't want the criticism, don't post the pics. If you want to brag about your success or prowess, expect people to challenge it. That is the nature of being competitive and bragging your success up with a pic is an invitation for competition!

The reality is that many of us get excited about our successes and we want to share that success with others...my suggestion is that if you don't want criticism, share the pics with only the people who share your values and who won't be critical. Because, the truth is that when we throw our pearls to the swine out there, most people aren't going to appreciate our hunting success as much as we hope they would.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Legends say that hummingbirds float free of time, carrying our hopes for love, joy and celebration. The hummingbird’s delicate grace reminds us that life is rich, beauty is everywhere, every personal connection has meaning and that laughter is life’s sweetest creation.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> I think that whenever someone posts a pic of a buck or bull or cow or doe or whatever he/she has harvested...that person is, to a certain extent, bragging about his/her prowess as a hunter. I also think that whenever someone posts such pics that they are inviting criticism whether they want it or not. When you willfully post a pic of your success, you should expect people to criticize the means.
> 
> We all do not have the same set of ethics or values when we harvest animals; however, when we put our prowess out into the public, we should expect our prowess to be challenged according to the set of ethics that others may or may not possess. If you don't want the criticism, don't post the pics. If you want to brag about your success or prowess, expect people to challenge it. That is the nature of being competitive and bragging your success up with a pic is an invitation for competition!
> 
> The reality is that many of us get excited about our successes and we want to share that success with others...my suggestion is that if you don't want criticism, share the pics with only the people who share your values and who won't be critical. Because, the truth is that when we throw our pearls to the swine out there, most people aren't going to appreciate our hunting success as much as we hope they would.


 While what you're saying has some truth to it, if you post that you got a nice buck, caught a slotbuster, or got me a big tom, there are those who post "pictures or it didn't happen". I guess maybe we just need to be quiet about our success? Kind of a fine line there. Always gonna be those who are jealous and want to bring out the negative in a positive post. IMHO.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Dunkem said:


> While what you're saying has some truth to it, if you post that you got a nice buck, caught a slotbuster, or got me a big tom, there are those who post "pictures or it didn't happen".* I guess maybe we just need to be quiet about our success?* Kind of a fine line there. Always gonna be those who are jealous and want to bring out the negative in a positive post. IMHO.


In reference to the line in bold....I hope not. That is one of the reasons l am a member of this forum, I enjoy the pictures and stories of others success and for that reason I have posted some of mine.

I don't remember anyone complaining about the ones that I have posted but then again no one can offend me. If I am ever offended it is I who chooses to be offended.

I look forward to seeing many pictures of game animals of all sizes and stories that go with them.

I wish everyone success in the new year and hope that you all draw the tag of your dreams. I have had great success in drawing tags and some success in harvesting some great animals with a variety of weapons and techniques and I hope to have more in the future.

That being said, I now enjoy helping others, especially youth, to harvest their animals and try teaching them what I have learned about hunting over the years even more than my own future success.

My trophies are for memories and if others enjoy them great, if not that is ok too. When I look at my mounts or my pictures it brings back the memories of the hunt and that is why I have them.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I've quit posting our hunting successes, fishing success too. We went 5 / 5 again on big game this year, my wife getting the biggest pronghorn of her life. Really just not worth the headaches / drama / duchebags anymore to post things and open yourself up to pointless comments / attacks.


-DallanC


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I've enjoyed sharing my adventures and have found the positive commentary to far outweigh the negative.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> "It breaks down with the fact that you're not happy with yourself, and it rips you apart to see other people smiling."
> 
> "Hunt for your reasons, and don't worry about everyone else."
> 
> ...


Vanilla-
It's internet mentality, and the fact that people can hide behind their computer screens and anonymous screen names. People wouldn't say half the things they do if it were a face to face or even phone conversation.

Reminds me of a Golden Retriever yesterday that was barking and growling at me behind his chain link fence. When I walked up to the fence, he tucked tail and ran (I was even speaking nicely to him) only to come charging back at me when I turned my back and started to walk off. Gave me a good laugh...stupid chicken **** dog (and I LOVE goldens!). Same goes for internet haters hiding behind technology.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

HighNDry said:


> This goes for fishing too. Too many people are hating me for deciding that I just like to fish dry flies on creeks and streams for smallish to medium sized trout. They tell me that I am limiting myself and that I need to add to my techniques and patterns and fish lures with my fly rod.
> 
> I don't know why they hate me for narrowing down what I do and expressing the joy I find in it.
> 
> ...


Great post, but I've never heard you get razzed about how you fish on here. Most of us aren't as good at dries as you and thus show respect. (Utah/BYU is another matter ;-) ) Are you sure you aren't thinking about the old UOTF days?

There is only one guy on here that I'm aware of that gets pestered for how he flyfishes and that is me. And we also know who the culprit is too, right Gary? :^8^:


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> Vanilla-
> It's internet mentality, and the fact that people can hide behind their computer screens and anonymous screen names. People wouldn't say half the things they do if it were a face to face or even phone conversation.


Reminds me of Brad Paisley's song...


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

It does seem like most of the time when negative comments are given, ethics are the main driving point.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Looks like hate is ahead:

Art of hating thread - 983 views
Art of love thread - 110 views
Art of meh thread - 304 views

.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> Looks like hate is ahead:
> 
> Art of hating thread - 983 views
> Art of love thread - 110 views
> ...


What does meh stand for?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> What does meh stand for?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meh

-DallanC


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> What does meh stand for?


It's like "who cares"

It's a text message thingie popular with 4 of my grandkids that have cell phones.

.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

DallanC said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meh
> 
> -DallanC


Wow, first time I've seen that word.
That probably sums up the thoughts of most readers of this and any other discussion forum.:mrgreen:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> Wow, first time I've seen that word.
> That probably sums up the thoughts of most readers of this and any other discussion forum.:mrgreen:


Really? Wow... that has been around for a very long time, well before texting usages.

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wyoming2utah said:


> I think that whenever someone posts a pic of a buck or bull or cow or doe or whatever he/she has harvested...that person is, to a certain extent, bragging about his/her prowess as a hunter. I also think that whenever someone posts such pics that they are inviting criticism whether they want it or not. When you willfully post a pic of your success, you should expect people to criticize the means.
> 
> We all do not have the same set of ethics or values when we harvest animals; however, when we put our prowess out into the public, we should expect our prowess to be challenged according to the set of ethics that others may or may not possess. If you don't want the criticism, don't post the pics. If you want to brag about your success or prowess, expect people to challenge it. That is the nature of being competitive and bragging your success up with a pic is an invitation for competition!
> 
> The reality is that many of us get excited about our successes and we want to share that success with others...my suggestion is that if you don't want criticism, share the pics with only the people who share your values and who won't be critical. Because, the truth is that when we throw our pearls to the swine out there, most people aren't going to appreciate our hunting success as much as we hope they would.


What if you don't post your success at all? What if you only shared it with those people close to you, and one of the said "haters" gets a hold of it from some other means and posts it on a thread on this forum to disparage you or cut you down? Then what are the rules for how people should feel on that?

Asking for a friend...


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

wyoming2utah, 
Bragging?
Is that what you first think of when someone post a picture or story?
No wonder you have so much resentment.
When I see a picture posted, I just assume the person wants to share their success with an announcement of such.
I sure hope the masses don't see my sharing as "BRAGGING"!!
Personally ,I've yet to have anyone respond negatively to any of my pictures or reports .
Sorry you feel that way.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I share as a form of 'doing my part' in our online community. I think about the the things I appreciate and the reasons that I browse these forums and try to provide some of those things for others. Stories, pictures, humor, spirited debate, etc. 

I'm not perfect and I have bad days/moments like everyone else but my overall objective is to be a beneficial member and interface with other likeminded folks. 

Bragging has never once been a motivation for one of my posts with the exception of a few about my kids maybe.--------SS


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Springville Shooter said:


> Bragging has never once been a motivation for one of my posts with the exception of a few about my kids maybe.--------SS


If you didn't brag about your kids I'd be more concerned... if you don't/haven't bragged about your kids in one form or another there's something wrong with you.

That's the whole reason I posted my most recent cow elk success... good grief that kid made me so darn proud and I've told everyone I know about it, not just here on this forum.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Packout said:


> - No, there are not enough animals for everyone. Sorry that he thinks there are, but there are not. It seems that fact causes the most angst among hunters and leads to some of the hate. Guys are sitting at home after not drawing a general season deer tag or a limited entry elk tag and they are frustrated to see others kill (some year after year) while they don't have the chance to hunt. Not many guys are arguing about a doe antelope photo.


I recently took some time to sit down and try to plan my big game application strategy for 2016. It appears that I'd be waiting 6-10 years for a pronghorn, 10-15+ years for a deer, and 12-30+ years for an elk tag with no real chance of ever drawing the premium units for deer and elk (still trying to decide if I want to apply for pronghorns like I had been or build on my one elk point). Additionally, if I ever draw a desert bighorn tag it will either be due to ridiculous luck or a longer life than everyone else who applies.

Thus, if there is anything that causes me to "hate", then it is watching those with a ton of money hunting premium units year after year, while I sit on the sidelines and wait for my one or two chances.

Goofy got it right... jealousy, 100%. I try never to complain about it or judge the hunter, however, because I cannot say with any certainty that I would not do exactly what they do if I were in their position.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

But you can buy any one, or EACH ONE of those tags this year, and do it next year, the following year... for the rest of your life... if you have enough $$$. 

No limitations for rich guys buying tags, just show up at the expo with your wad of cash and buy whatever one you want, every year. I'd recommend buying a landowner tag though, a little less $$. What are bookcliff buck tags going for currently? 4k? 4.5?

Dont have enough money to do that? Well then just hate the rich guys I guess...


-DallanC


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## Antler&fish (Dec 25, 2015)

It's not so much hate the rich guys, but more that some people don't want to celebrate their kills because of the flawed and unequal system in which they obtained their tags.They sure like to post their easy successes (sure that will get some people hating).


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Guy's,
There are ways to hunt GOOD permits every year even if your not "rich" .....

Building a point strategy in 2 or 3 states is key...
Then rotating to what tags are available any given year and bingo, your in.

With myself, and two kids that love to hunt, I can find GREAT hunts EVERY YEAR...

That will take ALL the hate ( Jealousy) away..;-)....Try it..:!:


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I have multiple great hunts every year here in Utah... who says you have to have a limited entry tag to have a great hunt?


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Hating is pulling away from the rest of the pack:

Art of hating thread - 1529 views
Art of love thread - 321 views
Art of meh thread - 900 views

.


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## littlebighorn (Feb 14, 2009)

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which a person is excessively preoccupied with personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity, mentally unable to see the destructive damage they are causing to themselves and others. :grin::grin::grin:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

littlebighorn said:


> Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which a person is excessively preoccupied with personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity, mentally unable to see the destructive damage they are causing to themselves and others. :grin::grin::grin:


We allow NPD on the UWN.

thanks

.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

littlebighorn said:


> Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which a person is excessively preoccupied with personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity, mentally unable to see the destructive damage they are causing to themselves and others. :grin::grin::grin:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

How many people realize there is an "ignore list" feature of this fine forum? Under the user control panel settings you can edit the ignore list... add names of people you want to ignore ;-)


-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Goof,

I've never seen you criticize a hunter for how they legally killed their game. I would never have labeled you as a "hater" as some others would be on this forum. I guess the reason is because of what you described above.

You and I may not agree on everything, we agree on a lot of things. And I think you're doing it right, even if I don't do it exactly like you do. Good on ya, man!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Why thanks TS! I do appreciate that!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And right back at ya.....


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> Guy's,
> There are ways to hunt GOOD permits every year even if your not "rich" .....
> 
> Building a point strategy in 2 or 3 states is key...
> ...


Hey goofy,

Do you offer private big game application consulting? It might be a good way to make some money on the side.

I took some time to try to figure out the best states to apply for, and... let's just say I'm more confused than when I started. I should have it with a little more time, but I can see why there is a market for services like Cabela's TAGS or Huntin' Fool. The fact that I don't have much money to spend on apps does make it easier to define my options, though.

(Oh, and feel free to send me a pm with any hints you can spare on where I should be applying. :mrgreen: )


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Clarq said:


> Hey goofy,
> 
> Do you offer private big game application consulting? It might be a good way to make some money on the side.
> 
> ...


For building points in other states you need a hunting fund or enough cash to cover the permits while some states hold onto your money until they send it back.

Colorado is one of these states that wants the money up front and then if you want a point (which you would need if you ever intend to draw in some units) there is a small fee of $50.00 I believe.

Then there is Arizona but the problem there is that you need to purchase a hunting license for around $156 I think then for a point the fee is $7.50. I have been doing this for quite a few years but then I also go down there for the dove and javelina hunts. This year I should have enough points for a great coues deer unit which I am going to apply for. Arizona also does bonus points instead of preference points. But they do give you a point after applying for 3 or 4 years and you can get another point if you take their hunter safety course.

Wyoming isn't too bad for just collecting points while you decide on where you want to hunt.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Sorry about the hijack btw, but I do appreciate the input.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Hey, I figured I might as well brag a little.;-)
My buck I killed this year was featured on Monster Muleys and their facebook page.
I hope one of my pictures can make the finals in their photo contest and possibly I could get a few forum friends to throw a vote my way.
Then I can see how much love/hate I receive.:mrgreen:
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID30/2885.html#.Vo88IcJIhQk


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## Viper1zer0 (Sep 16, 2015)

The "Ego" is the most destructive thing on this planet ........


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Viper1zer0 said:


> The "Ego" is the most destructive thing on this planet ........


I agree that an "Ego" used in the wrong way can be a problem.
Jealously can be very destructive too. 
I think that many people confuse a persons strong drive and passion for something, as having an "Ego" problem, when they're actually two different things.


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## Charina (Aug 16, 2011)

Good short vid Ridgetop.

I haven't read all this thread, or the other "art of" threads. These types of things are not why I visit a hunting forum (actually, I only checked in to see if Lone Tree was posting anything about the freak cougar from ID). Honestly, it's the misbehavior of so many posts, like the recent spat of them, that has kept me from visiting this particular forum for over three months now.

I wish we, as a society, taught basic emotional intelligence in school or homes. We teach math. We teach cooking. We teach sex ed. We teach a variety of things that humans can function in life without being taught, and can pick up from experience. But we wholly ignore teaching about emotions and interpersonal relations - something everyone needs to get along in life - at least if they want to have a successful marriage, friendship, employment, etc. Its a lot harder to pick up experientially than other basic life functions.

What I see, when I read someone's post attacking another, is an insecure and emotionally constipated "child" (emotionally, just a child, even if legally and physically an adult) lashing out simply to quell their own insecurity. Nothing but a mild outburst of an inferiority complex. Its sad. And when I'm not caught up in my own knee-jerk reactions to jerk behaviors, I pity them.

When anyone attacks another person (be it on a forum or a sarcastic or curt response to a spouse), that action says _far more_ about the attacker than it does about the other person, or the particulars of any situation. It speaks to their internal fears, their internal instability, their selfishness.

All you haters on here, try this at home to better understand the point . . . next time your wife is being a B and snotty, demanding, cajoling, or critical, stop and recognize her behavior is about how she is feeling at that moment. It is not about anything you did, even if you were an A immediately prior. See her in the light as someone struggling and insecure, and lashing out in childish ways because of it. And treat her according to that perspective, like a scared and hurt child desperately lashing out in an inappropriate attempt to get what they need - love and acceptance. You will be amazed at the outcome. And you will begin to see the tip of the iceberg of the principal of why we humans act in such childish ways as to put down others. You will being to see a far larger world of why you act like a prick to your wife, and others.

And if you haters aren't sensitive or emotionally intelligent enough to try the above experiment, at least have enough common sense to quit showing the world your inner insecurity by the way you tear down others.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

We need to have a new thread called the art of white knighting for those heroic warriors who come to the aid of anyone on the receiving end of some "hater's" (I hate that word. It sounds like something a 13 year old who wears their pants too low and also uses words like "swag" and "yolo" would say) wrath.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> We need to have a new thread called the art of white knighting for those heroic warriors who come to the aid of anyone on the receiving end of some "hater's" (I hate that word. It sounds like something a 13 year old who wears their pants too low and also uses words like "swag" and "yolo" would say) wrath.


I agree that the word "hate" seems a little too harsh but the message seemed to have a lot of truth behind it.
Also, you'll never catch me in one of those flat brimmed hats!:grin:


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Also, you'll never catch me in one of those flat brimmed hats!:grin:


I turned off the video when I saw the flat brimmed hat!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Geez Charina, at least we finally quit knife fighting. As Americans, fierce debate, sharp tongues, and hurt feelings seem to be in our heritage. While there should be moderation, a little feisty exchange now and then can invigorate the spirit.

Check out what I did here.....

Original history:
The proposal did not stop the bitter opposition and fierce debate. Some delegates began to leave in protest, and a sense of gloom settled over the statehouse. “It seems,” Sherman said, “that we have got to a point that we cannot move one way or another.” Washington wrote to Alexander Hamilton (who was away) that the crisis was so bad that he almost despaired of seeing a favorable outcome.

Modern history:
The passage of option 2 did not stop the bitter opposition and fierce debate. Some forum members asked to have their profiles removed in protest, and a state of gloom settled over the forum. "It seems," Goob said, "that we have got to a point that we cannot move one way or another." Huge29 wrote to Bax (who was hanging out over on The Gutpile) that the crisis was so bad that he almost despaired of seeing a favorable outcome.


Its in our heritage, it's in our genes.-------SS


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

3arabians said:


> I read about ridges big deer this year several times all I could think was how hardcore he was. I thought "that guy must be 7 feet tall". That was until I met him in person.  j/k for ya ridge I'm funny.
> 
> .


You have to admit, after seeing that I'm almost 7' wide.
I get around pretty well.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Haha ya you do. After watching you and mike, I forget the other guys name (the spotter) climb that mountain sheep hunting. I thought me and my bro were **** wise to hang back at the truck and glass that day.  You guys looked like mountain climbers not sheep hunters. I did learn that those two things go hand in hand with a bighorn tag.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

As the perceived spokesman for UWC (even when I'm not), I've often been labeled or called a "hater" (along with "greedy", a "threat", an "attacker", "stupid", an "idiot", and a few names I can't print on this public forum) simply because I wouldn't agree to or go along with or endorse an idea or proposal. And it usually happens when the idea or proposal isn't sound enough to stand on its own merits and the proponent feels he/she has to resort to other measures to make their case.

Does this tactic work? Not on me, but unfortunately, far too often with the public because there are too many bystanders unwilling to speak up for fear of the labels. I certainly have my faults, but I don't fear those labels because I know I'm none of those things. I wish for you the same outlook.

Edited: FWIW, the passage of Option 2 was only a favorable outcome for the few at the expense of the many. IMHO, of course. (There I go, hating again!)


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## Antler&fish (Dec 25, 2015)

Totally agree with you elkfromabove. We should be able to have debates and conversations as grown ups.. On most matters there is no one correct/right answer.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> As the perceived spokesman for UWC (even when I'm not), I've often been labeled or called a "hater" (along with "greedy", a "threat", an "attacker", "stupid", an "idiot", and a few names I can't print on this public forum) simply because I wouldn't agree to or go along with or endorse an idea or proposal. And it usually happens when the idea or proposal isn't sound enough to stand on its own merits and the proponent feels he/she has to resort to other measures to make their case.
> 
> Does this tactic work? Not on me, but unfortunately, far too often with the public because there are too many bystanders unwilling to speak up for fear of the labels. I certainly have my faults, but I don't fear those labels because I know I'm none of those things. I wish for you the same outlook.
> 
> Edited: FWIW, the passage of Option 2 was only a favorable outcome for the few at the expense of the many. IMHO, of course. (There I go, hating again!)


It was the all the "hate" from many of the UWC supporters on this site that pushed me out the door.
In the early years, I had and still have a good relationship with Ty, Perry, Kelly, Kris, Wes and Jeremy, to name a few.
The new board members, not so much.
When all the SFW and Option 2 haters started coming out of the woodwork and had no compromise in mind.
Well, that's when I had to back away.
I guess your idea of "a few", as in 10's of thousands people supporting option 2, that's enough to make it a worth while cause to me.
Ask all those people who hunted those struggling units with very low buck/doe ratios and are now seeing twice as many or more buck. Now that option 2 was able to cut back on hunters afield and the buck harvest within those units.
Those units were very close to becoming LE units, if the buck/doe ratios were to fall any lower.
Which would have been a far more terrible thing to happen than the passing of option 2. JMHO


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Reduced hunters afield? Sounds limited to me.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Reduced hunters afield? Sounds limited to me.


We were already limited before within each region. 
All option 2 does, is make sure the hunting pressure in each region was spread out more evenly within its sub units.
When I say LE, I mean Vernon, Oak Creek or Book Cliffs type of LE. Going from a sub unit with a couple thousand general season tags, to a unit with a few hundred LE tags. 
That, I was fully against.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> When all the SFW and Option 2 haters started coming out of the woodwork and had no compromise in mind.
> Well, that's when I had to back away.
> I guess your idea of "a few", as in 10's of thousands people supporting option 2, that's enough to make it a worth while cause to me.
> Ask all those people who hunted those struggling units with very low buck/doe ratios and are now seeing twice as many or more buck. . JMHO


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> It was the all the "hate" from many of the UWC supporters on this site that pushed me out the door.
> In the early years, I had and still have a good relationship with Ty, Perry, Kelly, Kris, Wes and Jeremy, to name a few.
> The new board members, not so much.
> When all the SFW and Option 2 haters started coming out of the woodwork and had no compromise in mind.
> ...


I don't know what you define as "hate", but if some of our members offended you with inappropriate language or insults, I'm sorry, but you know that's not what UWC is about as you indicated when you mentioned your ongoing relationships with some of our past board members. And FWIW, Kris, Tye and Kelly (and Jason Lowe) are still board members, while Jeremy recently resigned only because he felt he could no longer devote the time to UWC that he would like to. He has a young family to raise. Perry resigned earlier because of personal and family reasons. And I'm sorry that I don't know Wes. As for the new members, it's true that two of them are not so soft spoken (Shawn and Gordy), but they both are men who love hunting, fishing and viewing wildlife and don't like what's happening to the lose of opportunities available to the majority of Utah sportsmen and they aren't afraid to say so. But neither of them post much anymore. As for the third new board member (Dale), you have never met him nor have you ever heard from him. He's a family man that has hunting and fishing further down his list of priorities, but sees what we see and prefers to advise us on a personal more business-like level. He doesn't even read social media, let alone post on it.

As far as "haters" coming out of the woodwork, have you ever wondered why they were in the woodwork in the first place and why they stayed there so long and why they finally came out when UWC appeared? We're often accused of dividing hunters, but the truth is they were divided long before we came on the scene. Some just never spoke up because they could see no avenue to do that. We gave many of them that avenue.

Who had no compromise in mind? Where's the compromise between having a 5 Region hunting system and a 30 unit hunting system? And who was insisting on the change until they finally got it? And who demanded that the archers go to the 30 unit system instead of remaining statewide because it wasn't "fair". And who finally got that one too with ONE vote? And then there were the increased buck to doe (BtoD) ratios which would reduce the number of tags. On that one UWC was the group that made a proposal with numbers for specific units. And we did compromise on those numbers. We even proposed to cut tags in units that were below their newly designated BtoD ratios as long as DWR was willing to increase tags in units that were above their BtoD ratios. Of course, we see how that's working out. Simply raising the BtoD ratio objective on a unit and keeping the buck tag numbers low is much more preferred by some than increasing buck tags to bring it back down to its objective.

Yes, 10's of thousands is a lot of people, except maybe when you compare that number to the 150,000+ deer applicants. Then it becomes about 15%-20%.

The only units with "very low" buck to doe ratios were Tintic (9), West Desert West (9), Yellowstone(14), Vernal/Bonanza(12), Manti/San Rafael(13) and Monroe(12). And we proposed tag cuts on those as I stated above. If the DWR (or SFW or MDF or ?) had proposed to make them LE, we would have fought that as much as you would have. In fact, just so you know, DeLoss Christensen, the one who came up with Option 2, proposed on the Mule Deer Committee, that we have an LE area in EVERY general unit just like Oak Creek, Vernon and Elk Ridge. Wouldn't that be fun? It didn't pass of course. So then he tried to get us to go back to 72 deer management units like we had in the 50's/60's/70's in order to increase the number of LE units percentagewise. That didn't pass either.

Well, I think I'm done with this thread. Bottom line, UWC will oppose any efforts to reduce hunting opportunities for purely social reasons. If you choose to call that hating then so be it. It'll eat at you more than it will us. We know better.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> The only units with "very low" buck to doe ratios were Tintic (9), West Desert West (9), Yellowstone(14), Vernal/Bonanza(12), Manti/San Rafael(13) and Monroe(12). And we proposed tag cuts on those as I stated above. If the DWR (or SFW or MDF or ?) had proposed to make them LE, we would have fought that as much as you would have. In fact, just so you know, DeLoss Christensen, the one who came up with Option 2, proposed on the Mule Deer Committee, that we have an LE area in EVERY general unit just like Oak Creek, Vernon and Elk Ridge. Wouldn't that be fun? It didn't pass of course. So then he tried to get us to go back to 72 deer management units like we had in the 50's/60's/70's in order to increase the number of LE units percentagewise. That didn't pass either.
> 
> Well, I think I'm done with this thread. Bottom line, UWC will oppose any efforts to reduce hunting opportunities for purely social reasons. If you choose to call that hating then so be it. It'll eat at you more than it will us. We know better.


 You missed a couple other low buck/doe ratio units like Nebo and Oquirrh/Stansburys.
Anyway, not sure how Option2 or UWC got brought up again. It wasn't my intent.
About the OP, I was just talking about people perceptions concerning different hunters and there trophies taken and what people say about them on social media.


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