# BYU just dropped to #50!!!!!!!!!!



## xxxxxxBirdDogger

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=14566442&nid=272

Brandon Davies is suspended for the season due to an honor code violation.

Aaaaaargh!!!!

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I can't freaking believe this!!!!!!!!!!!


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## mm73

Unbelievable! There goes the dream season. They will be lucky to make it to the second round of the MWC tournament now, let alone the NCAA tournament. Heck, they may not even be able to beat NM tomorrow night. What a kick in the nuttz!


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## Kevin D

Well, with six seniors slated to graduate from USU, we can probably make an Aggie out of him......Yep, that's called getting lucky twice!!


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## JERRY

My heart goes out to this kid. I don't know what he did, but its hard to be perfect all the time. 

That really blows for cougar fans, but not all hope is lost. They have Jimmer! 8) :lol:


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## cliff spab

when ur school has retarted rules, thats what happens


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## proutdoors

cliff spab said:


> when ur school has retarted rules, thats what happens


You're right, a RELIGIOUS school having morals, how absurd. :roll:


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## Packfish

Hope the best for them- respect their codes


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## jahan

I am not a fan of the Honor Code at BYU, but they all agree to it and know what it is upfront. It must have been a pretty severe infraction to be suspended from the team for the rest of the season. I respect BYU for sticking to their code, even if I think it is a bit ridiculous.


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## GaryFish

Well, the thing to me that I am grateful for regarding the honor code, is that it is enforced, regardless of how high profile the athlete is. Unga got booted, and now Davies. I feel for both those guys, but they know the rules. Back in the day it seemed the athletes were exempt, at least until the season was over which never set well with me. It should be applied to all students fairly and equitably. I hope the best for the kid. The team will move on. But the best teams can survive injuries, foul trouble, cold streaks, whatever. Its all part of the game.


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## HighNDry

Hmmmm. Maybe he can get in with another school next year. If I was him I'd get a hold of Cam Newton and ask if Auburn basketball needs some help.


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## mm73

As far as the HC goes, I will admit it that it is fraught with moral ambiguity (upholding high standards vs forgiveness and compassion, etc, etc) and it presents many challenges for BYU, from a theological standpoint as well as an athletic and public relations standpoint (Davies violation is now national news). But, as others have noted, it is something that every student who enrolls at BYU promises to uphold and every student knows full well the seriousness of violating that agreement. And as a university that is owned and operated by the LDS church, with the apostles serving as its board of directors, I personally don't presume to know better than them how it should be run. I am speaking only of myself though. I don't fault anyone else for questioning it.

As far as Davies goes, I only wish him the best and I hope that he will return to BYU. He is a very talented athlete and a good person as well, I am sure. Maybe he will decide to go somewhere else to finish out his eligibility, and I would not blame him if he does. If that is the case then I wish him the best of luck wherever he decides to go.

As far as the rest of the team and the season goes, this is a heavy blow but it can have one of two effects on the rest of the team: they can choose to rally together and have every player find a way to dig deeper and give even more effort to keep their dreams alive, or they can choose to let it bring them down and their dreams along with it. We should find out tonight which is the case.


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## Packfish

I hope they rally- but tonight they should win at home with or with or without Davies. March Madness will be the test.
Can't blame him but females can get you


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## cliff spab

They only have morals when there in public. Have you ever heard the saying dont take 1 mormon fishing because he will drink ur beer? Take 2


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## Chaser

cliff spab said:


> They only have morals when there in public. Have you ever heard the saying dont take 1 mormon fishing because he will drink ur beer, Take 2


Generality of the year!

Here's what the guys at ESPN have to say about the HC:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6175090


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## Yonni

A great article from the D-News

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001 ... id=fbdnews


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## mm73

Packfish said:


> Can't blame him but females can get you


We are assuming it was a chastity violation and you are probably right but it could have been any one of a number of things. Maybe he got caught cheating in the classroom, or he was seen in a bar. Who knows. Actually I hope we never find out. It should be a private matter.


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## mm73

cliff spab said:


> They only have morals when there in public. Have you ever heard the saying dont take 1 mormon fishing because he will drink ur beer? Take 2


Oh yeah, well I think all Catholics are members of the mafia, and all Jews are greedy. Oh, and all Muslims are terrorists. Your prejudices are just as ridiculous as mine. Nice of you to show up. :roll:


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> by mm73 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:09 pm
> 
> Packfish wrote:
> Can't blame him but females can get you
> 
> We are assuming it was a chastity violation and you are probably right but it could have been any one of a number of things. Maybe he got caught cheating in the classroom, or he was seen in a bar. Who knows. Actually I hope we never find out. It should be a private matter.


A wise bishop once remarked about certain chastity related activities, "There are two kinds of men in this world: Those who do, and those who lie about it." I think he was right.


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## copper

He wasn't that good anyways. I don't see what the outcry is about. I think that tonight vs New Mexico will prove that.


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## proutdoors

From the D-News link Yonni provided:


> Cougar athletics exist because of BYU, not the other way around.


That seems to be the part cliff spab INTENTIONALLY is missing. :?


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> He wasn't that good anyways. I don't see what the outcry is about. I think that tonight vs New Mexico will prove that.


Coughcough...ahem...uh...nope. -)O(-


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## proutdoors

Hopefully BYU can wake the #%$# up during half-time and at least make it a game. Feeling sorry for themselves is not what champions do!


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## cliff spab

Looks like the hobbit fell short tonight with the loss o-||


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## JERRY

Whoa! Just saw on the news. Apparently feeling sorry for them selves. 

Hopefully they find a way to make it happen!

Davies has got to really be feeling bad to let his teammates down like that.


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## Critter

I don't think that Davies could of helped them last night but he couldn't of hurt. It just seams that New Mexico has BYU's number just like BYU has San Diego States number.


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## Packfish

mm73 said:


> Packfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't blame him but females can get you
> 
> 
> 
> We are assuming it was a chastity violation and you are probably right but it could have been any one of a number of things. Maybe he got caught cheating in the classroom, or he was seen in a bar. Who knows. Actually I hope we never find out. It should be a private matter.
Click to expand...

It wasn't a prediction- it was already known


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## Al Hansen

Well folks apparently ABC National News this morning leaked the violation. Lets just hope that all the coeds in Provo don't get dismissed for the same thing. BYU won't be able to pay the bills. :lol:


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## fixed blade XC-3

Al Hansen said:


> Well folks apparently ABC National News this morning leaked the violation. Lets just hope that all the coeds in Provo don't get dismissed for the same thing. BYU won't be able to pay the bills. :lol:


Link, come on Al what did he do? o-||

I had to edit it because I spelled Al wrong. :mrgreen:


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## MeanGene

No factual evidence yet , but last night on the tv news they said a local radio station leaked out that his girlfriend was pregnant. Everyone know that BYU prohibits pre-marital sex.


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## jahan

Hey you always test drive a car before you buy it right? Man that is a tough deal for BYU, I respect them for sticking to their values. I always joke around with my BYU friends and say, up at USU we don't have morals so we will take your rapist, drug dealer, and pre-martial sex guys off your hands, LOL. I actually hope he comes up to USU and red shirts a year, we could use him and we will support him and his new family if that is what happened.


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## GaryFish

Well, the Cougs couldn't buy a basket in that game last night, and New Mexico was shooting the freaking lights out. BYU did NOT look like a top 10 team at all. Bad performance at home. But New Mexico was the last team to beat them in the Marriott Center, and the last team to beat them. The Davies distraction didn't help. My only hope is that BYU doesn't face New Mexico in the MWC tournament or it will be an early exit.


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## Al Hansen

fixed blade said:


> [quote="Al Hansen":2isv3wj0]Well folks apparently ABC National News this morning leaked the violation. Lets just hope that all the coeds in Provo don't get dismissed for the same thing. BYU won't be able to pay the bills. :lol:


Link, come on Al what did he do? o-||

I had to edit it because I spelled Al wrong. :mrgreen:[/quote:2isv3wj0]
 . Read Jahans.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> Link, come on Al what did he do? o-||


Davies had sex with his girlfriend. 
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebas...isses-basketball-player-for-having-sex-030211


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## fixed blade XC-3

Hell, who doesn't have sex with their girlfriend? You get kicked off the team for that?


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## GaryFish

Gentlemen, you crossed the line of decency.
Locked.

Since I locked this last night, I've had some questions wondering why so I owe you guys a broader explanation. This story is clearly a national story. KSL reported last night that it was three of the top ten google searches last week. There are many components to the story, and I am of the thought that it should be discussed and that this site is a great place to do that. But last night, there were three posts that added nothing to the discussion, but degraded it past the line of decency. Once a post like these shows up, soon there are many and the quality of our website goes downhill fast. So in addition to locking the thread, I deleted those posts.

For now, I'm going to unlock the thread so we can discuss it openly and hopefully, without degrading the discussion again. If it does go that way, I'll lock it again for good. Which would be sad, because this is a compelling subject and worthy of discussion. So it is up to you guys- the forum members to do all we ask here - discuss subjects in a respectful way, without discussions going into the garbage.

Thanks guys.


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## jahan

Well it is obvious one of the posts that caused this mess was mine, I didn't see the others, I am sorry, I didn't think it was that bad, but my judgment is not always the best.  I will just say this, I think the honor code is ridiculous, but I don't have to live with it. Davies did the right thing, the school did the right thing and I hope Davies learns from his lesson and takes his talents to the Cache Valley. 8)


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## GaryFish

This year, Davies has really become a very good player. Much of Jimmer's success has been directly connected to Davies' inside play. I don't know if he is NBA level talent, but I think he can make a bunch of money playing basketball somewhere. I hope he makes it back to the team next year. Many players have had honor code issues, taken care of things, and then made it back to the team and gone on to great careers at BYU, but also professionally. Its interesting to me how much press this has gotten. BYU has shown that no player gets any kind of special treatment - when it was about a year ago they dismissed the schools leading rusher from the football team. 

The other thing I think interesting are all the press pieces nationally that aren't faulting Davies for doing what college students do, but complementing BYU for sticking to the honor code at a time when most other schools in the nation would prostitute their mothers for a BCS bowl or Final 4 run. 

One article I read tried to put a financial figure on what a Final 4 run means, in terms of direct revenue, advertising, getting the school's brand out there, etc..... For a school like Butler or George Mason, it was over $100 million. I wonder how much this kind of publicity it would have cost BYU to get the message out about the importance of their honor code, what it means to the institution, and all that.


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## Al Hansen

What it has done is chase the athelete with a girlfriend away and brought every parent of a teenage girl knocking at the door. :lol: :lol: :lol: J/K.


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## kochanut

its refreshing to see that the code the students of BYU folllow is enforced no matter what the status (athlete, regular joe) of the student is. even though i have zero belief in the faith choosen by the students of BYU i do commend the staff (church?) for holding them accountable for the actions they aggred to follow when they signed up for this school.

woul he have made that much of a differance in the loss? probably not, a loss is a team effort, not indivdual one


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## GaryFish

I think you are right on that last part Kochanut. BYU already lost to New Mexico earlier this year - when Davies played. New Mexico has beat BYU something like 6 of the last 7 times they've played. Clearly, they know how to play the Cougs.


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## jahan

I disagree with kochanut and Gary, I think it made a huge difference. The offense looked lost, they were missing, IMO, the main key to their success. Without an inside presence, Jimmer would not be Jimmer. Now teams will be able to double and triple team him without fear of a decent inside guy to guard. They lost by nearly 20, I think if Davies is there, they keep it close at minimum and more than likely they win that game. For hell sakes, Utah beat New Mexico both times this year and they suck.


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## GaryFish

I'm not saying Davies would not have made a difference in the game itself. It would have. But I don't know if it would have changed who won the game. Some teams just match up differently. And for whatever reason, New Mexico and coach Alfred have it figured out how to beat BYU and Coach Rose.


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## phantom

]I applaud BYU for sticking to their guns on the HC, although I don't agree with all of it. It's their school, they can do what they like. What I don't understand is this


> I hope he makes it back to the team next year. Many players have had honor code issues, taken care of things, and then made it back to the team and gone on to great careers at BYU, but also professionally.


Once you've had sex, how can you fix it. If you can, why don't they take him back now?


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## GaryFish

I know things are handled individually with the Honor Code Office, and with the student's church leader. Not knowing any details of this case but speaking generally, friends I know that had issue with the honor code would take some time off of school to get their stuff together. If someone is pregnant, then they took time off to have the baby, get married, whatever. Basically taking time to get their stuff together, and then coming back. It worked in cases of Reno Mahe and Harvey Unga (Unga was suspended from the team before his freshman year but came back). It didn't work in other cases. 

As I see it, the point is to recognize that there are consequences associated with personal choices. And those are outlined ahead of time. So with choices, then the consequences follow.


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> I know things are handled individually with the Honor Code Office, and with the student's church leader. Not knowing any details of this case but speaking generally, friends I know that had issue with the honor code would take some time off of school to get their stuff together. If someone is pregnant, then they took time off to have the baby, get married, whatever. Basically taking time to get their stuff together, and then coming back. It worked in cases of Reno Mahe and Harvey Unga (Unga was suspended from the team before his freshman year but came back). It didn't work in other cases.
> 
> As I see it, the point is to recognize that there are consequences associated with personal choices. And those are outlined ahead of time. So with choices, then the consequences follow.


Didn't Unga get kicked off again for his Senior year for the same thing? Maybe I am confused.


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## GaryFish

Yes. He did. Only that time, he and his girlfriend got married, and their kid was born a couple months later. It gets more complicated when someone gets pregnant.


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## jahan

So I guess my observation was it wasn't effective with Unga.


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## GaryFish

Over time, you are probably correct. Or, as I see it, I wish him and his wife and their kid all the best in their life together. I figure that short-term in staying at BYU and playing out his senior year, it didn't work out. But the guy made an NFL squad, and hopefully will have a career there. As I see it, it will take many years to know how the story ends. It certainly isn't over yet, though the BYU chapter is done.


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## jahan

I don't want to make it sound like I think Unga is a bad dude. He made a mistake, but it seems he made the same one again. I also wish him the best, especially since he has a kids involved.


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## GaryFish

To me, the bigger picture means everything. It is easy to say "Davies screwed up and BYU lost to New Mexico and their number 1 seed because of it." But bigger picture, none of us know how things will turn out for Davies, or for BYU. And those things take time - sometimes years or decades to know.


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## jahan

True, but the bigger picture could be he feels that everything he's knows is now gone, he is being kicked out of school and feels he has no where to turn. He turns to drugs, becomes a tweeker and becomes a pimp in Utah County. BYU never recovers and fall to the wayside like Utah. :mrgreen: I agree, I think both will be fine in the long run. 8)


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## mm73

jahan said:


> I will just say this, I think the honor code is ridiculous


I know we will have to agree to disagree on this but the HC is necessary for BYU when you consider that one of the primary purposes of BYU is to represent the LDS church. That means if you are a student or a faculty member at BYU then you are a representative of the church, even if you are not LDS. The HC is designed to assure that students at BYU conduct themselves in a manner that reflects the values of the school and the church that operates it. Is it perfect? No. Nothing done by man ever is, but that does not mean it is not worth having. I personally would like to see BYU take a softer approach to enforcing the HC but I am glad BYU has it and is obviously enforcing it fairly and evenly for everyone who agrees to abide by it.


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## jahan

mm73 said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will just say this, I think the honor code is ridiculous
> 
> 
> 
> I know we will have to agree to disagree on this but the HC is necessary for BYU when you consider that one of the primary purposes of BYU is to represent the LDS church. That means if you are a student at BYU you are a representative of the church, even if you are not LDS. The HC is designed to assure that students at BYU conduct themselves in a manner that reflects the values of the school and the church that operates it. Is it perfect? No. Nothing done by man ever is, but that does not mean it is not worth having. I personally would like to see BYU take a softer approach to enforcing the HC but I am glad BYU has it and is obviously enforcing it fairly and evenly for everyone who agrees to abide by it.
Click to expand...

Why don't you read the rest of my post while you are at it. I agree with almost everything you just stated. I don't like it, but I understand it. I would never go to a school with it, but I respect BYU for having it, but more importantly sticking to it.


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## mm73

jahan said:


> Why don't you read the rest of my post while you are at it. I agree with almost everything you just stated. I don't like it, but I understand it. I would never go to a school with it, but I respect BYU for having it, but more importantly sticking to it.


I did read your entire post, and I am not trying to pick a fight with you, and I totally respect your point of view, but it just seems like you are contradicting yourself a little. If the HC is "ridiculous" then why do you "respect BYU for having it" and for "sticking to it"?

I totally understand not wanting to go to a school that has such strict standards. I know many good and faithful members of the church who feel the same way and I respect their views. But nobody is forced to go to BYU and to sign the HC. For every 10 people who apply to BYU, probably 9 are turned away. This makes enforcing the HC fairly even more important because there are so many people who really wanted to go to BYU because of the standards and atmosphere that it has, but were not given the chance. It really is a privilege to attend BYU.


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## mm73

It is amazing how much publicity this story is getting. It has hit the prime time news (watch the video):

http://abcnews.go.com/US/brandon-davies ... d=13048897


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## jahan

mm73 said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you read the rest of my post while you are at it. I agree with almost everything you just stated. I don't like it, but I understand it. I would never go to a school with it, but I respect BYU for having it, but more importantly sticking to it.
> 
> 
> 
> I did read your entire post, and I am not trying to pick a fight with you, and I totally respect your point of view, but it just seems like you are contradicting yourself a little. If the HC is "ridiculous" then why do you "respect BYU for having it" and for "sticking to it"?
> 
> I totally understand not wanting to go to a school that has such strict standards. I know many good and faithful members of the church who feel the same way and I respect their views. But nobody is forced to go to BYU and to sign the HC. For every 10 people who apply to BYU, probably 9 are turned away. This makes enforcing the HC fairly even more important because there are so many people who really wanted to go to BYU because of the standards and atmosphere that it has, but were not given the chance. It really is a privilege to attend BYU.
Click to expand...

I used poor word choice, I don't like the honor code, but with that being said, if they are going to have it, I am happy to see them actually sticking to it. Like you said, if you don't like it you just don't need to apply.

Reality is it is a privilege to go to any University, I don't like that argument. It is one thing to have higher academic standards like a Yale or Harvard, but it is hard to get into BYU for religious reasons. I am sorry, but that is a better than thou statement that makes people dislike BYU fans and alumni.


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## Al Hansen

Lets remember this is a discussion about sports.


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## mm73

jahan said:


> Reality is it is a privilege to go to any University, I don't like that argument. It is one thing to have higher academic standards like a Yale or Harvard, but it is hard to get into BYU for religious reasons. I am sorry, but that is a better than thou statement that makes people dislike BYU fans and alumni.


The reality is BYU has very high academic requirements. I think they are in the 3.8+ range now. Obviously they make exceptions for athletes and probably others as well, but that is the reason why the majority of people don't get accepted. The only religious requirement is an ecclesiastical endorsement which is not hard to get if you are living the standards of the church. BYU accepts ecclesiastical endorsements from any church, by the way, not just the LDS church. That is why the generic term is used, instead of something that is LDS specific like "Bishop's endorsement". Non-LDS students who attend BYU are required to be active in their own church and have an endorsement from their own ecclesiastical leader while attending BYU. They are not required to attend LDS services, though they are required to take religion courses like every other BYU student. I am not sure whether or not they are required to take Book of Mormon or D&C courses though.

The point I was trying to make is that there are a lot of people who want to attend BYU but are turned away so that is why it is a privilege to go there. You are right, though, that it is a privilege to attend any university. I just meant that if you are going to go to BYU you have to keep the HC because you are there in place of somebody else who wanted to get in but couldn't. Sorry if it sounded "better than thou".


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> The HC is designed to assure that students at BYU conduct themselves in a manner that reflects the values of the school and the church that operates it.


I've been an LDS church member my entire life and I disagree with this statement. The honor code at BYU goes beyond church standards and into some kind of fairy dreamland that holds even non-LDS athletes and students accountable to stricter (I refuse to say "higher" in this case!) standards than LDS church members themselves. I didn't go to BYU because of the honor code. I don't see myself as someone less than honorable just because I have a few whiskers on my face. I find that idea ridiculous.

Holding non-LDS students and athletes to a stricter standard than regular church members is wrong, in my opinion. I think that does the church a disservice and really limits BYU's potential as a missionary tool.


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## mm73

You make a good point about the facial hair part, but what other parts of the HC do you think are stricter than the rest of the LDS standards such as the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, etc?


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## FishlakeElkHunter

Al Hansen said:


> Lets remember this is a discussion about sports.


I think that statement is a bunch of CRAP! :shock: It is not JUST about sports....the discussion is about sports at a RELIGIOUS school and the reason that this topic is even here and talked about is because of RELIGIOUS standards that you are required to maintain to play SPORTS at this school. So to warn that this is a SPORTS topic....Whatever :roll: :roll: :roll:

Sometimes you Moderators are just too touchy..... :shock: :shock:

(as just a background....I agree with the Honor Code and have no problem with it...I do however have a problem with Moderators controlling a conversation)


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## BIGBEAN

I work at the institution that is the center of attention. I to have to abide by the HC and other than the facial hair have no problem with it. 
I have been to several different Colleges and Univerities and find it rather refreshing to see clean cut kids. I get tired of seeing tats and piercings, goatee's. At the department that I work in we get alot of outside vendors and visitors. One of the biggest compliments that the University gets is the appearance of the students.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> You make a good point about the facial hair part, but what other parts of the HC do you think are stricter than the rest of the LDS standards such as the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, etc?


The honor code includes vague generalities like "respect others", "use clean language", and "participate regularly in church services". Not that any of those things are bad, but they are definitely open to different interpretations. One kid's bishop could report an athlete who says what the bishop perceives to be a naughty word, while another bishop breaks out a few choice terms of his own every time he's under the hood of his truck.

I don't get kicked out of church every time I've been perceived as being disrespectful to someone in the waterfowl forum. I miss church probably once a month on average to go visit family. Is 75% attendance "participating regularly"? Who decides? Each individual bishop decides. Some men are much more easy going than others, so the honor code becomes only as lenient as the man or woman enforcing it.

Don't get me started about this part of the honor code:


> Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code


"Encouraging" others has turned into full fledged spying with intent to report.


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## Chaser

Birddogger, your last two posts have been SPOT ON! Its not the same standard, that's for sure, and that's a big reason I am an LDS Ute, rather than Cougar. Bottom line of it all, is the kid agreed to live up to the standards in the HC, and then broke that agreement. BYU is right for dismissing him from the program and school, because that was part of the deal when Davies signed on. It sends a very strong statement to society that they will hold students accountable for their actions. If a kid has no intention of following the HC, he should have no business going to school there.

Davies not only ended up with a huge load of responsibility on his shoulders with the girlfriend situation, but he also let down his teammates, school, and fans. I'm sure its a tough pill to swallow for him right now. Hopefully it all works out for the best.


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## mm73

BirdDogger said:


> You make a good point about the facial hair part, but what other parts of the HC do you think are stricter than the rest of the LDS standards such as the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, etc?
> 
> 
> 
> The honor code includes vague generalities like "respect others", "use clean language", and "participate regularly in church services". Not that any of those things are bad, but they are definitely open to different interpretations. One kid's bishop could report an athlete who says what the bishop perceives to be a naughty word, while another bishop breaks out a few choice terms of his own every time he's under the hood of his truck.
> 
> I don't get kicked out of church every time I've been perceived as being disrespectful to someone in the waterfowl forum. I miss church probably once a month on average to go visit family. Is 75% attendance "participating regularly"? Who decides? Each individual bishop decides. Some men are much more easy going than others, so the honor code becomes only as lenient as the man or woman enforcing it.
> 
> Don't get me started about this part of the honor code: [quote:ka1c2ox8]Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code
Click to expand...

"Encouraging" others has turned into full fledged spying with intent to report.[/quote:ka1c2ox8]

Are you sure you are not exaggerating just a bit here? I have never heard of anyone getting kicked out of BYU for cursing or missing church once in a while. I am sure you would be booted if you went around dropping F-bombs all over campus, but I never knew anyone who got kicked out for the occasional curse. You will be given plenty of warning and counseling for minor infractions like that. And it is wrong, IMO, to compare enrollment at BYU to membership in the church. Yes, it is owned and operated by the church but it has its own policies and requirements for admission, and attending BYU is a privilege that most members of the church are not afforded because the demand far exceeds the capacity of the school. This is why BYU is ranked the most popular university in the nation by US News and World Report (http://www.usnews.com/education/article ... university). If you are admitted to BYU you are part of a fairly exclusive club just by virtue of the fact that you are given an opportunity that many others were denied and so you are expected to live up to a higher standard. Many feel like BYU is an elitist school for that reason, and maybe it is. I guess it depends on how you look at it. It certainly is not for everyone. And by that I am not suggesting that it is in any way better than other schools. Far from it. In fact it is ranked 75th by the same US News and World Report ranking for quality of education.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

...and to think I'm true blue through and through. I practically live and die for BYU football and basketball and here I am criticizing the institution. :lol: 

On a side note- my sister's best friend and college roommate "scored" with an All-American BYU quarterback about as often as he completed passes. Would his legend be tarnished locally if people found out? 

I don't disagree that Brandon Davies knew what he was doing and knew the consequences of his actions...but...Why does BYU feel the need to make Brandon Davies' infraction or any other athlete's honor code issue national news? Why can't his situation just be discreetly handled with his ecclesiastical leader? I would think private counsel and tender loving care would be more Jesus-like than press conferences and kicking him off the team.


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## cliff spab

FishlakeElkHunter said:


> Al Hansen said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> (as just a background....I agree with the Honor Code and have no problem with it...I do however have a problem with Moderators controlling a conversation)
Click to expand...

The honor code is retarted its only a matter of time before jimmer gets caught with a soda and is suspended as well


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## GaryFish

BYU publicize nothing, other than noting that he'd been dismissed from the team. When asked why, they said honor code, and that was it. BYU hoops is a national story the last couple of weeks. With the Jimmer doing his thing, and BYU climbing the polls, it is a story that people are interested in for many reasons. And has been stated by many national media, the fact that a school would place its principles over a final four run is refreshing. Especially in light of the Cam Newton rental of the Heisman Trophy, where his father used his church to get rich off of pay-to-play fees. As I've seen this portrayed in the national media, it isn't a story about a player getting his groove on. It is a story about a school sticking by its code of honor, at a time when there is very little honor in college sports. And I think that is a story worth telling. 

For Davies - I hope and pray all works out well in the young man's life. It must be hell for him right now. From what I know, he's a good kid and just made a mistake. I hope the story next year is about Davies on his way to an all American junior year for the Cougars, and he can talk about the things most important to him.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

I agree with the following article:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/cougars/51355487-88/byu-code-honor-davies.html.csp?page=1
Monson expressed in writing the way I've felt for years about the honor code.


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## jahan

BirdDogger said:


> I agree with the following article:
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/cougars/51355487-88/byu-code-honor-davies.html.csp?page=1
> Monson expressed in writing the way I've felt for years about the honor code.


Wow, that is a spot on article.


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## JERRY

jahan said:


> BirdDogger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with the following article:
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/cougars/51355487-88/byu-code-honor-davies.html.csp?page=1
> Monson expressed in writing the way I've felt for years about the honor code.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, that is a spot on article.
Click to expand...

I agree! And I hate Monson! Usually.


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## GaryFish

Monson is a total POS in my opinion. He stands on this ivory tower and spouts off about dragging a poor kid into the town square to be flogged, placing that blame on BYU - when the reality is, it is Monson and the other sports radio/TV honks filling up hours of broadcast time dragging the kids name around because they can get ratings from it. Monson isn't the messenger. He is the problem, yet he can hide behind his typewriter and place all blame on BYU - when all they did was enforce the rules. Monson and others are making money dragging the kids name around. And that sucks.


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## proutdoors

GaryFish said:


> Monson is a total POS in my opinion. He stands on this ivory tower and spouts off about dragging a poor kid into the town square to be flogged, placing that blame on BYU - when the reality is, it is Monson and the other sports radio/TV honks filling up hours of broadcast time dragging the kids name around because they can get ratings from it. Monson isn't the messenger. He is the problem, yet he can hide behind his typewriter and place all blame on BYU - when all they did was enforce the rules. Monson and others are making money dragging the kids name around. And that sucks.


A-FREAKING-MEN!


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> Monson is a total POS in my opinion. He stands on this ivory tower and spouts off about dragging a poor kid into the town square to be flogged, placing that blame on BYU - when the reality is, it is Monson and the other sports radio/TV honks filling up hours of broadcast time dragging the kids name around because they can get ratings from it. Monson isn't the messenger. He is the problem, yet he can hide behind his typewriter and place all blame on BYU - when all they did was enforce the rules. Monson and others are making money dragging the kids name around. And that sucks.


Gary, your post ignores reality. Freedom of the press is one of the most important Constitutional rights we have in this country. The Internet has provided the press a tool to disseminate information to the entire world in the blink of an eye. Media has always and will continue to report extraordinary information. Davies' having been kicked off the team for having sex is extraordinary. It's simply not something that would happen anywhere else in the country. It is a newsworthy situation.

BYU knows what makes news. They had a choice between keeping a kid's intimate actions personal and between him, those close to him, and his ecclesiastical leaders, or kicking the kid off of the team and thereby announcing to the world that the kid had sex with his girlfriend. BYU chose to make Brandon Davies a headline. Kicking a star off of the basketball team is newsworthy. You can't blame the media for reporting the news.


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## Packfish

Never been a Y fan- competed against them, they were always the enemy. But the athletes signed up and bought into the honor code. I totally understand the kids hormones but BYU stuck to their guns and there is something to be said for that in a society that certainly has lost the understanding of honor. I knew what the transgression was within the hour of when it was reported that Davies was suspended. I think BYU did what they had to and headed off the
speculations and problems that would have come if they hadn't. If someone from Cache Valley knows with hours you don't think this would have come out and crap would have been spread across the newspapers for BYU hiding it like the bottom of my parrot cage.


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## mm73

BirdDogger said:


> Gary, your post ignores reality. Freedom of the press is one of the most important Constitutional rights we have in this country. The Internet has provided the press a tool to disseminate information to the entire world in the blink of an eye. Media has always and will continue to report extraordinary information. Davies' having been kicked off the team for having sex is extraordinary. It's simply not something that would happen anywhere else in the country. It is a newsworthy situation.
> 
> BYU knows what makes news. They had a choice between keeping a kid's intimate actions personal and between him, those close to him, and his ecclesiastical leaders, or kicking the kid off of the team and thereby announcing to the world that the kid had sex with his girlfriend. BYU chose to make Brandon Davies a headline. Kicking a star off of the basketball team is newsworthy. You can't blame the media for reporting the news.


BirdDogger, you are the one ignoring reality. I am really not sure what your beef with the HC is but it is their code and they have to enforce it fairly for all their students. If this were some average joe at BYU no one would care and few would hear about it. But by enforcing the code the same for star athletes BYU has shown honor and integrity, and that their code is more important than winning basketball games. If they allowed Davies to stay on the team after he violated the code that he agreed to uphold they would be guilty of a double standard, and of trying to cover up what happened. Then Gordon Monson and all the other critics would be blasting them for hypocrisy because with all the intense media attention on BYU, especially at this time, the violation would come out one way or another. Especially if it is a situation like Harvey Unga's. We don't know all the facts so it is stupid to act like we know better how they should have acted.

As a side note - I was at the game yesterday and could see Davies on the bench supporting his teammates. I saw numerous signs held by fans expressing love and support for him, and after the game he helped to cut down the nets. The crowd erupted in cheers for him as he climbed up the ladder and began chanting "Davies, Davies". His coaches, teammates, and fans have reached out to him to show love and compassion and I am confident he will be back, possibly even next season. I predict he will be like Reno Mahe who recognized his fault, humbled himself, and worked to come back, and learned a great life lesson from the experience.


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## jahan

mm73 said:


> As a side note - I was at the game yesterday and could see Davies on the bench supporting his teammates. I saw numerous signs held by fans expressing love and support for him, and after the game he helped to cut down the nets. The crowd erupted in cheers for him as he climbed up the ladder and began chanting "Davies, Davies". His coaches, teammates, and fans have reached out to him to show love and compassion and I am confident he will be back, possibly even next season. I predict he will be like Reno Mahe who recognized his fault, humbled himself, and worked to come back, and learned a great life lesson from the experience.


I am glad to hear that. He made a mistake, but he also needs support. A main complaint about the HC has been it is an ironfist, without the help needed for bettering themselves. Monson article hit it right on the head. I know diehard BYU fans don't like to hear it, but Monson was correct.

The next step BYU needs to do is help Davies out, if they do this all parties will be better off. The selfish side of me hopes BYU pushes Davies away up into open arms at USU, but I doubt that will happen. :mrgreen: For the most part the whole nation has supported BYU and their decision as a bit of fresh air where at many Universities there are kids playing with criminal records. I to support BYU's decision, just think the HC is a little archaic.


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## proutdoors

Sorry jahan, I think Monson was wrong, as usual. He showed his ignorance of the LDS faith and a LDS Institution. He tried to apply secular values to a religious issue. 

As for the Honor Code being "archaic", that highlights YOUR lack of understanding on this issue. The scriptures say God is the same yesterday, today AND tomorrow, not that once we have 'progressed' to a certain point we won't have need of HONOR and MORALS. I don't want to turn this to a preaching session, but if the LDS leadership changed policy at BYU due to public opinion and the opinions of NON-members I would question my testimony.


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## coyoteslayer

> I to support BYU's decision, just think the HC is a little archaic.


What a ashame, people have to actually live a higher standard.


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## Comrade Duck

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. I feel really bad for Brandon Davies. I've made plenty of mistakes in my life and am glad none of those ever became national news. At the same time though my sympathy only goes so far. Brandon agreed to a code of conduct that he made the choice not to live up to. He unfortunately has nobody to blame but himself. As bad as I feel for Brandon, I feel even worse for the rest of the team. They really needed him. This couldn't have come at a worse moment.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the criticism of BYU and the way they handled the situation. Their hands were pretty much tied in the matter. I feel some changes should be made to the honor code to allow a bishop (or other church leader) more opportunity to resolve the situation, but that's not the code that's in place nor the code that Brandon agreed to. All that was reported from the University was that Brandon had been suspended from the team for an honor code violation. No details were given. Can you imagine the firestorm that would have come had they not done what they did? Eventually it would have been leaked had they tried to cover it up. The same media people that are criticizing the Y for brining this to the forefront would be clamoring about the hypocrisy of the institution for turning a blind eye to it for there own gain. He was treated no differently than any other student who has the same issue with that part of the honor code. They did what they had to do.

Any other year and this would have only made the news in Utah. Unfortunately for Brandon the team is nationally ranked and Jimmer is the poster child for college basketball. It's been made a big deal because of the team's position in the spotlight. That shouldn't affect the schools decision though to enforce the honor code equally among the thousands of students who have agreed to it. 

Everybody makes mistakes! There are consequences though to every decision we make. I hope Brandon can learn from this and we get a chance to cheer him on once again in a cougar uniform in the future.

Shane


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## coyoteslayer

> Can you imagine the firestorm that would have come had they not done what they did? Eventually it would have been leaked had they tried to cover it up. The same media people that are criticizing the Y for brining this to the forefront would be clamoring about the hypocrisy of the institution for turning a blind eye to it for there own gain. He was treated no differently than any other student who has the same issue with that part of the honor code. They did what they had to do.


+1 people would be bashing the church if they didn't dismiss Brandon from the team. It doesn't matter if your a star on the football/Basketball team or just some joe that goes to school at the Y. BYU is going to treat everyone just the same.


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## jahan

proutdoors said:


> Sorry jahan, I think Monson was wrong, as usual. He showed his ignorance of the LDS faith and a LDS Institution. He tried to apply secular values to a religious issue.
> 
> As for the Honor Code being "archaic", that highlights YOUR lack of understanding on this issue. The scriptures say God is the same yesterday, today AND tomorrow, not that once we have 'progressed' to a certain point we won't have need of HONOR and MORALS. I don't want to turn this to a preaching session, but if the LDS leadership changed policy at BYU due to public opinion and the opinions of NON-members I would question my testimony.


Public opinion has changed many rules over time at both BYU and within the religion, but I won't go any farther as to keep this post on topic, I will just use one of your arguments, I know Monson is right if Pro and Gary disagree with him. :mrgreen: :lol:  :^8^:

BYU did what they needed to do, they gained respect on a national level for they way they stuck to the HC. Like I have said many times, even if I disagree with the HC, I have a great respect for BYU sticking to it, when it would have been much easier to ignore it. To me it was refreshing to see it versus, the Auburns, Ohio States and other schools covering for their star athletes.


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## GaryFish

My thing with Monson isn't in reporting the news. But in his column (opinion piece - not news) he criticizes BYU for taking the kid to the town square to humiliate him, and then takes up 10 inches of column to do the same. BYU's only comments in the whole deal were that the young man was dismissed for violation of honor code. They didn't say what, when, where, whatever, except he did nothing that was illegal. Period. All the rest - the details, the accusations, the assertions, the headlines - have been media generated. 

I'm all about freedom of press. But the news story has been told. Columnists that continue to run the accusations on a kid's personal life just to get readers is the exact thing Monson is berating in his piece and on his talk show. That isn't journalism. It isn't news. It is sensationalism.


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> My thing with Monson isn't in reporting the news. But in his column (opinion piece - not news) he criticizes BYU for taking the kid to the town square to humiliate him, and then takes up 10 inches of column to do the same. BYU's only comments in the whole deal were that the young man was dismissed for violation of honor code. They didn't say what, when, where, whatever, except he did nothing that was illegal. Period. All the rest - the details, the accusations, the assertions, the headlines - have been media generated.
> 
> I'm all about freedom of press. But the news story has been told. Columnists that continue to run the accusations on a kid's personal life just to get readers is the exact thing Monson is berating in his piece and on his talk show. That isn't journalism. It isn't news. It is sensationalism.


You make some excellent points. I actually don't care for Monson, this is one of the few articles of his that I agree with.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

The punishment certainly doesn't fit the crime, nor should athletics and religion be intermingled, IMO. Absolvency of sins has absolutely nothing to do with sports. Of course BYU had to kick Davies off the team. That's the way they have it set up and they would be hypocrites if they didn't live up to the standard they've set up for themselves. That does not mean that BYU is applying the standards in a way that makes sense.

Immorality should affect standing in the church, not the sports world.



> The scriptures say God is the same yesterday, today AND tomorrow


Exactly. Jesus saith unto the repentant sinner, "Go thy way and sin no more." 
BYU indicated that Brandon Davies turned himself in, e.g. he's repentant. BYU said, "You're off the team." Lame.


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## cliff spab

Davies really shud read the book of mormon and go confess all of his sins


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## proutdoors

cliff spab said:


> Davies really shud read the book of mormon and go confess all of his sins


You should really get spell-check and stop trolling. _(O)_


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## Riverrat77

BirdDogger said:


> That does not mean that BYU is applying the standards in a way that makes sense.
> 
> Immorality should affect standing in the church, not the sports world.


True, otherwise it would apply to everyone. :lol:


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## HighNDry

I've been going back and forth in my head about this situation and after listening to the Danny Ainge interview I come away with a good feeling. I think BYU is a great institution and are trying to build solid individuals. Davies will be back if he so chooses. 

Immorality does affect the sports world. You have to look no further than Tiger Woods. Also, look at the crap Kobe Bryant went through by being immoral (Jazz hypocrites will chant that he's a rapist when he comes to town) why not give him a break? Oh wait--he got one. 

All BYU is trying to do is help young people from making decisions and mistakes that can change the course of their lives. If the consequences are not tough enough then obeying them is meaningless.

Just my opinion now I've taken a closer look at the situation.


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## justuspr

"nor should athletics and religion be intermingled"

then BYU shouldn't have an athletics department... BYU is first and foremost a religious school, and while thats true I think its absolutely correct for them to expect/require certain behavior from their athletes.


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## mm73

For the record, BYU is not the only university with an honor code. All three of the US service academies have very strict honor codes as well, and would have taken the exact same action as BYU if one of their athletes had violated their honor code.


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## proutdoors

justuspr said:


> "nor should athletics and religion be intermingled"
> 
> then BYU shouldn't have an athletics department... BYU is first and foremost a religious school, and while that's true I think its absolutely correct for them to expect/require certain behavior from their athletes.


This is what BirdDogger and others seem to be missing.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> justuspr wrote:
> "nor should athletics and religion be intermingled"
> *then BYU shouldn't have an athletics department*... BYU is first and foremost a religious school, and while that's true I think its absolutely correct for them to expect/require certain behavior from their athletes.
> 
> This is what BirdDogger and others seem to be missing.


I'm not missing that at all. I just don't agree with the highlighted statement. I think it's completely acceptable as an NCAA university to have an athletics program. Athletics isn't all about being a saintly angel. I think it's perfectly acceptable to keep confessed sins between a bishop and the church member who confessed them.

Example:
BYU does the Haka, a war dance that other Polynesians find very disrespectful when done on their own field, before every football game. Is that Christ-like? It's not and you all know it. It's about competition. In the case of football and basketball sports are about making money for the school.

Even with all that said, let's assume that the honor code is a perfect complement to BYU sports-
Ask yourself again, "Would Jesus have kicked a repentant Brandon Davies off the team?" Would he? 
I think the scriptures are pretty clear how Jesus would have reacted: "Go thy way and sin no more." Davies did not get caught in something. He did not get told on. Brandon felt bad for what he had done and showed repentance through confession. That should have been the end of it. Such ended the story of the adulterous woman about whom the Pharisees inquired.


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## GaryFish

I don't know. Jesus got pretty upset and did start throwing people out of the temple for their bad behavior.


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## proutdoors

Repentance takes more than remorse. it takes retribution and accountability. What good is an Honor Code if it isn't going to be enforced? Let Davies off easy, and the school just as well do away with the HC. You cannot have mercy if you don't have justice.


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## jahan

I think stoning in a public square should be suffice. :mrgreen: o-|| :lol:


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## proutdoors

jahan said:


> I think stoning in a public square should be suffice. :mrgreen: o-|| :lol:


 :?


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## GaryFish

Bird Dogger - I agree on the Haka. I wish they'd quit doing it. It is disrespectful. I don't like trash talking in any form. Just play strong on the field. That should be all the talking you need to do. Man that makes me miss John Stockton!

On the Davies situation - Here is how I see things now. 1. He is not kicked out of BYU, and continues to work through whatever he is working through. 2. It is very common for teams to have more strict rules than the school/league they play. 3. So him not playing is up to him and Coach Rose to sort out at this point, at least that's how I see it. Coaches can sit players for not making practice, busting curfew, substances, etc... or whatever team standard they set. That is up to them. 4. BYU as a school, and as a basketball team has made a decision they have to live with. And ironically, like the suspended player, they know the consequences of that decision are moving on with things. 

As for the repentance thing - repenting and seeking forgiveness does not make the consequences of sin go away. If I choose to drink and drive and kill someone, I can feel remorse, seek forgiveness, and families of the victim can offer up all the love they want. A guy is still dead because of my actions. The sin may be forgiven, but the consequences are still there. Sure this is a slippery slope extreme example, but it makes the point. Jesus told the woman to quit doing what she was doing. And spiritually, she was forgiven. But she still faced the consequences of those actions.

Anyway, it was good to see the Jimmer named CBS Sports Player of the Year. Pretty cool. And he's been listed on every All-American list I've seen to date. Right now, I am just hoping and praying that Colorado State can beat New Mexico in round 1 of the MWC tournament. It would be really embarrassing to see BYU lose to New Mexico a third time this year. Doing so would be sure to drop them from a 2 seed in the NCAA down to a 4 or 5. And that wouldn't be cool at all.


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## jahan

proutdoors said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think stoning in a public square should be suffice. :mrgreen: o-|| :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> :?
Click to expand...

It was a joke, no need to be confused big guy. :lol:


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## proutdoors

I am confused every time Yoda speaks, yes am I.


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## coyoteslayer

> Ask yourself again, "Would Jesus have kicked a repentant Brandon Davies off the team?" Would he?
> I think the scriptures are pretty clear how Jesus would have reacted: "Go thy way and sin no more." Davies did not get caught in something. He did not get told on. Brandon felt bad for what he had done and showed repentance through confession. That should have been the end of it. Such ended the story of the adulterous woman about whom the Pharisees inquired.


Bird Dogger, I was a ward clerk at BYU at the same time my Father was the bishop. He had to interview every student to see if they were obeying the honor code before they could attend the next semester. Some had issues that made them ineligible so they had to work out their issues before attending BYU again. Do you think Davies should get special treatment? It's not fair to the students who get rejected for not obeying the honor code. Many of them were very sorry for what they had done also. They had to sit out a semester just like Davies has to sit out the rest of the season.

When people agree that they will follow the honor code rules then they are making a contract or covenant. God has said that he doesn't take contracts or covenants lightly.

Here is a good read by Spencer W Kimball

http://lds.org/ensign/1979/04/on-my-hon ... honor+code


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## Huge29

GaryFish said:


> Bird Dogger - I agree on the Haka. I wish they'd quit doing it. It is disrespectful. I don't like trash talking in any form.


I disagree! First of all, it is done way before the game and ALWAYS facing their own fans and totally away from the opposing team. It is a great motivation tool that I think is great! The New Zealand All Blacks team still uses it. It is simply a ritual...I really like it and my kids even try to do it!


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## mm73

Huge29 said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bird Dogger - I agree on the Haka. I wish they'd quit doing it. It is disrespectful. I don't like trash talking in any form.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree! First of all, it is done way before the game and ALWAYS facing their own fans and totally away from the opposing team. It is a great motivation tool that I think is great! The New Zealand All Blacks team still uses it. It is simply a ritual...I really like it and my kids even try to do it!
Click to expand...

They do it because of all the Polynesian players on the team (over 1/3 of BYU football players are Polynesian). Is it disrespectful or antagonistic to the opposing team? Yeah, probably. I think they should reserve it for home games only, and refrain from doing it in other team's house. But it is really meant as a cultural thing. The non-Polynesian players do it as well to build team unity. But BirdDogger is really reaching with this example. He is trying to find fault in everything BYU does because they are not the perfect representation of Christ in everything they do (who is?) and so he is trying to make the logical leap that if they are not going to be perfect they should quit trying all together. It is absurd.


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## mm73

coyoteslayer said:


> Bird Dogger, I was a ward clerk at BYU at the same time my Father was the bishop. He had to interview every student to see if they were obeying the honor code before they could attend the next semester. Some had issues that made them ineligible so they had to work out their issues before attending BYU again. Do you think Davies should get special treatment? It's not fair to the students who get rejected for not obeying the honor code. Many of them were very sorry for what they had done also. They had to sit out a semester just like Davies has to sit out the rest of the season.
> 
> When people agree that they will follow the honor code rules then they are making a contract or covenant. God has said that he doesn't take contracts or covenants lightly.
> 
> Here is a good read by Spencer W Kimball
> 
> http://lds.org/ensign/1979/04/on-my-hon ... honor+code


CS, I am impressed. You remind me why you should never rush to judgment about somebody. All this time I thought you were just a classless Ute fan who loves to stir the pot. My apologies.


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## HighNDry

Forgive everyone--open the prison walls and set them free!!


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> coyoteslayer wrote:
> Bird Dogger, I was a ward clerk at BYU at the same time my Father was the bishop. He had to interview every student to see if they were obeying the honor code before they could attend the next semester. Some had issues that made them ineligible so they had to work out their issues before attending BYU again. Do you think Davies should get special treatment? It's not fair to the students who get rejected for not obeying the honor code. Many of them were very sorry for what they had done also. They had to sit out a semester just like Davies has to sit out the rest of the season.
> 
> When people agree that they will follow the honor code rules then they are making a contract or covenant. God has said that he doesn't take contracts or covenants lightly.
> 
> Here is a good read by Spencer W Kimball
> 
> http://lds.org/ensign/1979/04/on-my-hon ... honor+code


Well, Davies has to face punishment in three different venues, whereas a church member only faces punishment in church. I have never once written that Brandon Davies or any other student or church member would not face punishment for breaking a moral code. A student faces punishment at church and school. Davies faces punishments at church, school, and sports. Then he has to face public scrutiny on top of all of it. I think it's a little over the top. 
Nobody can say athletes get special treatment under the honor code because the athletes actually get triple whammied, harsher punishment than students or church members in general.

You boys are almost onto the winning argument on this issue. It's taken you long enough to get there. Strange that a Ute fan had to help you. Somebody connect the dots... 

Hint: the "BYU had to be consistent" argument holds no water. Consistently wrong is still wrong. Consistently flawed is still flawed. The honor code has huge flaws in consistency simply by its nature. Different bishops react differently in the various situations they encounter.


----------



## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> Repentance takes more than remorse. it takes retribution and accountability. What good is an Honor Code if it isn't going to be enforced? Let Davies off easy, and the school just as well do away with the HC. You cannot have mercy if you don't have justice.


Yep. That's what the church court system is built upon. It ain't no picnic going through that process. Davies has to go through that court process as well as get kicked off of the basketball team, a harsher punishment than for the general church member, right?



> jahan wrote:
> I think stoning in a public square should be suffice.


His career options just potentially got stoned.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> But BirdDogger is really reaching with this example. He is trying to find fault in everything BYU does because they are not the perfect representation of Christ in everything they do (who is?) and so he is trying to make the logical leap that if they are not going to be perfect they should quit trying all together. It is absurd.


Learn to read, mm73. Take a course or something. It's either that or quit making things up. This is an issue in which the other side deserves a voice, and more than just lip service.


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## mm73

I read just fine. You keep trying to equate BYU and the honor code and the way that it should be enforced with church membership and the way standards are enforced there. But they are two separate things. That point has already made over and over again so it is pointless to keep making it. We will just agree to disagree.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> by mm73
> ... the HC is necessary for BYU when you consider that one of the primary purposes of BYU is to represent the LDS church. That means if you are a student or a faculty member at BYU then you are a representative of the church, even if you are not LDS. The HC is designed to assure that students at BYU conduct themselves in a manner that reflects the values of the school and the church that operates it.





> You keep trying to equate BYU and the honor code and the way that it should be enforced with church membership and the way standards are enforced there. But they are two separate things...


Which of these seemingly incongruent statements is your final answer?


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## proutdoors

Its a PRIVATE institution! Enough said.


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## coyoteslayer

> Davies faces punishments at church, school, and sports. I think it's a little over the top.
> Nobody can say athletes get special treatment under the honor code because the athletes actually get triple whammied, harsher punishment than students or church members in general.


This comes with the territory when your in the public view. The LDS church isn't treating him unfairly. The media is the one talking about the private life. All the church said was he has been missed from the team because of breaking the honor code. True many students don't have their name on the national news, but they still deal with the issues with friends and family.

Davies made the mistake. He knew the consequences beforehand. I'm sure he is very sorry for what he did. He will either use this as a growing experience or choose to deal with it in a negative way.

BTW, Birddogger, I don't believe sports is very high on Jesus's priority list. So I doubt Jesus would tell Brandon Davies to "Go his way and sin no more." He wants us to learn the lessons of life and part of this lesson is dealing with the consequences when we make mistakes.


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## coyoteslayer

> Hint: the "BYU had to be consistent" argument holds no water. Consistently wrong is still wrong. Consistently flawed is still flawed. The honor code has huge flaws in consistency simply by its nature. Different bishops react differently in the various situations they encounter.


If you feel so strong that the Honor Code has flaws then I invite you to write the First Presidency of the LDS church and express your feelings.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> Its a PRIVATE institution! Enough said.


You win.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> If you feel so strong that the Honor Code has flaws then I invite you to write the First Presidency of the LDS church and express your feelings.


The LDS First Presidency operates a business corporation that is a completely separate entity from the LDS church. I can be critical of decisions made at BYU without being critical of my religion. They operate under different business structures. True, the brethren try to use inspiration when hiring those who run the ship at BYU, but jobs at BYU are not LDS church callings. They are advertised and paid positions. Carri Jenkins is being paid every time she steps in front of a camera to address an honor code investigation at BYU. Her church calling as of 2005 when she wrote the following article was that of a primary chorister: http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=10745The honor code office has employees who get paid to do their jobs. Decisions made at BYU might not always be right, but mostly the men and women hired are pretty solid. My grandpa told me that stuff. He only spent 34 years on the board of trustees at BYU.


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## mm73

BirdDogger said:


> by mm73
> ... the HC is necessary for BYU when you consider that one of the primary purposes of BYU is to represent the LDS church. That means if you are a student or a faculty member at BYU then you are a representative of the church, even if you are not LDS. The HC is designed to assure that students at BYU conduct themselves in a manner that reflects the values of the school and the church that operates it.
> 
> 
> 
> [quote:2glzm71q]You keep trying to equate BYU and the honor code and the way that it should be enforced with church membership and the way standards are enforced there. But they are two separate things...
Click to expand...

Which of these seemingly incongruent statements is your final answer?[/quote:2glzm71q]

They are not incongruent statements. You just don't want to connect them yourself so let me try one last time to do it for you...

BYU students, and especially student-athletes represent the LDS Church because it is the flagship school of the Church and everyone associates BYU and its students with the LDS faith. Therefore, the Church wants students who attend BYU to follow a certain code of conduct to ensure that they give the best possible representation. This code is very strict, and is rigorously enforced, but it is also completely voluntary and it is separate and apart from their membership status in the church. In deed, not all BYU students are even members of the Church but they are all expected to follow the same code of conduct. A violation of the BYU honor code does not necessarily constitute a violation of church standards (ie - facial hair), and expulsion from BYU for breaking the code does not usually mean excommunication from the Church. They are separate contracts, or covenants as President Kimball referred to it in the address CS provided. There is certainly some overlap between them, for example each student must receive an ecclesiastical endorsement from their church leader, but even with that there is a distinction because BYU accepts endorsements from non-LDS ecclesiastical leaders if the student is not LDS. The same can not be said for purely LDS church related recommendations like temple recommends, etc. They are similar yet still separate and distinct, and therefore have different policies and procedures associated with them. You yourself even recognize the separation by citing the fact that BYU employees are paid employees rather than merely Church members serving in a calling. It is not incongruent to me at all but obviously you have a different perspective so we will just agree to disagree. This topic has been beaten to death and it is time to move on but go ahead and have the last word if you wish.


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## GaryFish

So after all this discussion, I've come to the conclusion that:
- Some of us like BYU's honor code and always will.
-Some of us don't like BYU's honor code and never will.
- Most everyone respects BYU for enforcing it with the basketball player, knowing it cost the school a possible final 4 appearance. Especially in a day when teams will do anything to win. Though all may not agree with the rules that have been set, they respect the school for standing behind them.
- Sports is not religion, and religion is not sports. Though the two get blurred together when the religion sponsors the school that sponsors the sports. But those that go there know that going in, and agree to it. 
-BYU is not as good without the young man that got suspended from the team. But they also know that going in, as they know that players are not perfect and at some point, most kids will have something in their life that goes beyond the honor code. 


-


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> So after all this discussion, I've come to the conclusion that:
> - Some of us like BYU's honor code and always will.
> -Some of us don't like BYU's honor code and never will.
> - Most everyone respects BYU for enforcing it with the basketball player, knowing it cost the school a possible final 4 appearance. Especially in a day when teams will do anything to win. Though all may not agree with the rules that have been set, they respect the school for standing behind them.
> - Sports is not religion, and religion is not sports. Though the two get blurred together when the religion sponsors the school that sponsors the sports. But those that go there know that going in, and agree to it.
> -BYU is not as good without the young man that got suspended from the team. But they also know that going in, as they know that players are not perfect and at some point, most kids will have something in their life that goes beyond the honor code.
> 
> -


Good summary! 8) :mrgreen:


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> This topic has been beaten to death and it is time to move on but go ahead and have the last word if you wish.


 o-|| Ah, I've just been poking the hornet's nest for quite awhile now.

Good summary, GaryFish.


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