# So, you think that you can draw an Expo Tag?



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Looking at the stats, it would be much wiser to apply in another state Arizona or Nevada instead of dumping $200 into the tag system.

Odds are that you will hunt or a draw faster than playing this system.

I understand that only being able to apply for one species in the regular draw may lead you to apply for tags for the expo. It may be your only chance to draw an elk tag during the waiting period or draw a goat tag, because you are committed to moose.

Just understand there is 228,530 apps for 200 tags. So, there are more likely better draw odds in your unit during the regular draw than the expo draw.

*Best Units*


Deer - Book Cliffs North Rifle- 0.20% or 1 in 505
Elk - Manti Archery - 0.14% or 1 in 374
Pronghorn - Plateau Muzzleloader - 0.77% or 1 in 136
Moose - Wasatch - 0.02% or 1 in 6063
Bison - Henry Mountains Cow - 0.05% or 1 in 1853
Bear - Nine Mile Spring - 0.30% or 1 in 306
Cougar- Nebo - 0.51% or 1 in 194
Desert Bighorn - San Raf South- 0.02% or 1 in 5570
Rocky Bighorn -Newfoundland- 0.02% or 1 in 5545
Rocky Goat - Uintas - 0.03 or 1 in 3202
Turkey - Southeast - 0.88% or 1 in 112
Just some food for thought.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Better Picture



http://imgur.com/gY1KbIo


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well,

Your odds are exactly zero if you don't apply.......:grin:;-)

And, It's the ONLY place I can apply for my 2nd Utah moose permit............


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I agree with goofy, if you don't invest some money into the tags you have 0 chance. 

It is a lot like the Power Ball drawing for $1.3 billion +. If you don't purchase a ticket you won't have even a sight chance of winning.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

The odds for all those hunts are close enough to zero that I am perfectly content to not put in and keep my odds at zero.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Some of my friends and I decided to drop out due to the award process so everyone's odds just went up.

You can thank me later when you draw;-)


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Some of the best odds are for the nonresident OIL tags...if I had a hunter friend in town from out of state I would bring them to apply for those. True, the odds are still around 1 in 1000, but for those species that's about as good as you'll ever get for $5. Usually you'll spend $100+ for a chance that probably isn't much better.

I ran through last year's stuff on my spreadsheets and concluded that the $60 I would spend to apply for the tags I want will produce about a 0.5% chance of me getting one of them if odds are similar to last year's.

I haven't decided if I'll apply. Yeah, I've studied enough probability to know that it's a stupid idea to apply, so I definitely wouldn't if it weren't so much fun to dream about what I'll do when I pull that special tag. ;-) The entertainment value alone makes it tempting.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Clarq said:


> Some of the best odds are for the nonresident OIL tags...if I had a hunter friend in town from out of state I would bring them to apply for those. True, the odds are still around 1 in 1000, but for those species that's about as good as you'll ever get for $5. Usually you'll spend $100+ for a chance that probably isn't much better.
> 
> I ran through last year's stuff on my spreadsheets and concluded that the $60 I would spend to apply for the tags I want will produce about a 0.5% chance of me getting one of them if odds are similar to last year's.
> 
> I haven't decided if I'll apply. Yeah, I've studied enough probability to know that it's a stupid idea to apply, so I definitely wouldn't if it weren't so much fun to dream about what I'll do when I pull that special tag. ;-) The entertainment value alone makes it tempting.


It's 5$ to apply but you still pay full price for the tag


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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

I always thought the same thing, spent my usual $50 last year and ended up with a tag. So I can't complain, still have my points to use as well.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The odds are terrible. But not only do I know a decent amount of people that have drawn (including one guy that has drawn twice), I drew a Pauns tag myself in 2012. 

Yep, the odds suck. Chances are extremely thin. But someone will draw the tags. I wish it was a different system, but it's not. And as mentioned by others, it is my only chance to even apply for deer, moose, sheep, and goat tags. I'm stuck in the never ending elk and bison pools.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Odds of drawing a tag are low. Odds of supporting corrupt politicians and adding to the problem is 100% if you apply for expo tags.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The way that I look at it is that even if SWF is the most corrupt thing this side of the moon someone needs to draw the tag and it might as well be me. 

As I mentioned in one of the other threads going on about them, if every member of the UWN and UWC boycotted the show and didn't purchase any chances it would be like one grain of rice in a bowl of millions of grains.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I drew a tag in 2009 and it seems like every year, there's a few folks on this forum that draw or knows someone that did.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

It all boils down to where a person wants to spend their money. One of my favorite hobbies is hunting, and I enjoy every aspect of hunting (planning hunts, application processes, scouting, etc.) The expo gives me a chance, slim as it may be, at drawing tags that I would never draw otherwise. 

I apply for hunts in Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, and Arizona. Just the licensing cost in some of these states to get bonus/preference points is more than I spend at the expo. 

Plus, it is a great reason to miss work!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

+ One Million CPA !!!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Same here...:!:....


And,
It's AMAZING how many members on these forums, plus people I know that have drawn Expo tags.
These permits are an AWESOME added opportunity IMO.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I apply for just about every in state tag I can legally do so for....I love to hunt and will do all that I can to ensure I have a tag in hand as often as possible.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Like I stated the numbers suggest it would be wise to spend your money else where. 

I do not discount that there are tags to be had and people draw these tags every year.

I was pointing out that it you would hunt more often if you looked into other states rather than looking into the expo. 

$530 All tags (+ Tag Fee ~$100-$500) can get you a rut Mule Deer Tag in Montana, Deer Tag in Idaho, Ruby Archery Tag in Nevada, Coues Deer Tag in Arizona, OTC elk tag in Idaho, a gets you an OTC elk tag in Colorado, and a few more bucks gets you an OTC Deer/Elk Combo in Montana. There are options to hunt outside of the poor draw odds of the expo to hunt more often. 

Save the $530 for ten years and do a DIY moose hunt in Alaska, Save the $530 for fifteen years and do a guided Dall/Goat hunt in Alaska. 

I understand that putting in for tags gives the appearance that you can draw something special and if you have the money. I would say go for it. Just understand there are probably better ways to spend your money in regards to hunting. 

I'm not a member of RMEF or SFW, I am just a numbers guy.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Someone has to draw, and I have as good a chance as anyone...
I actually do not put in. I do the Sportsman tag, prob just as bad.........

I drew Paunsy muzzle in '12 thru the regular draw. There was a guy camped close to use that had gotten an Expo tag. He was upset there was not a 30" buck running around every knoll. You know how the legends grow. 
The 5th morning he took a 20" 4x4. 
Was actually a very nice guy, and enjoyed talking to him and his friend.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The most I've ever put in for at a single expo is 6 tags...$30. That was last year, every other year I've done it I've limited myself to $20. I guess the line of thought for other states helping you hunt more often works better if you figure someone is putting in for every tag and they don't have the means to do both.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If you can drop $530 on tickets at the expo every year I doubt that you would have to worry about saving up for 10 years to hunt out of state.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

I am well aware of what the odds of me drawing tag through the expo are. However, it is the only chance I have of drawing a sheep, goat or Henry mountain tag. I have 15 moose points...not enough to draw any time soon and too many to change species. It will likely be, at best, 10-15 years before I have any real chance of drawing a moose tag and by then I may have a chance of drawing another OIL if I get lucky.

So...there is no cheap way to hunt sheep and spending $50 per year (no matter how poor the odds are) is cheaper than any other option I know of. I can get my fill of elk, antelope and deer tags hunting Utah and surrounding states, but OIL species are an entirely different story.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

Will my odds increase if I start working for SFW or the Mule Deer Foundation?


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## littlebighorn (Feb 14, 2009)

Applying for out of state tags and buying points is crazy expensive, and I will easily pay more for buying points in other states than I will on Expo tags. To me it is a pretty cheap lotto, even if my odds aren't great.

Go ahead and drop out boys...I like that!


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

littlebighorn said:


> Applying for out of state tags and buying points is crazy expensive, and I will easily pay more for buying points in other states than I will on Expo tags. To me it is a pretty cheap lotto, even if my odds aren't great.
> 
> Go ahead and drop out boys...I like that!


 Ok, I think I'll drop out to increase your chances. Oh, wait! I can't drop out since I've never dropped in!


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> These permits are an AWESOME added opportunity IMO.


These permits were taken away from Utah hunters in the first place! There is zero opportunity added! The general public lost the permits and the expo attendees gained them. So if I want a chance at the tags that were taken from me I have to attend the expo and pay extra money. I'd be fine with that IF the money went to wildlife. But I'll be danged if I'll donate money to a group that's going to use it against me. SFW has taken more opportunity away from Utah hunters than any other group in existence. "Added opportunity", haha -_O-


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

El Matador, You don't have a clue.

The majority of these expo permits came out of the Non-res pools .....

Utah hunters would have NEVER had the opportunity to apply for them any way.

And for me, I want to be the only guy ever to harvest TWO archery moose in Utah..
The expo permit is my only chance to do that...;-)....:grin:


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Goof, pardon my ignorance, but I can draw a second Rocky tag in Utah thru the expo? Are the expo tags apart from the standard OIL rules? Guess i'm not following your "2 archery moose" comment.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Yes, if you have already drawn a OIL tag for a species you can still draw the same tag at the Expo. Also waiting periods do not apply either to a Expo tag.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

That is a big fat YES MWScott....:!:.....^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Waiting periods and OIAL's rules do not apply to expo permits.......

EDIT: Critter beat me to it.....!


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

My brother has drawn twice at the expo and won a rangefinder as well. His odds were no different than anybody else. Never know.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> El Matador, You don't have a clue.
> 
> The majority of these expo permits came out of the Non-res pools .....
> 
> Utah hunters would have NEVER had the opportunity to apply for them any way.


Expo permits are taken out of the public drawing using the same allocation percentages for res/nonres as the public tags. That's around 10% from the nonres pool. Goofy, is 10% considered a majority? Maybe you should edit your post to read, "El Matador, I don't have a clue." :mrgreen:

Regardless of where the tags are pulled from, for every person that draws an expo tag there's someone out there who would have received it in the public drawing that did not. There is no net opportunity gained.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> El Matador, You don't have a clue.
> 
> The majority of these expo permits came out of the Non-res pools .....
> 
> ...


 So, where did you come up with the idea that the majority of these Expo permits come out of the non-resident pool? Please explain.

As a heads up, SFW/MDF/UFNAWS have future plans for the 200 Expo permits. Per the SFW RFP, page 43: "We would welcome the opportunity to discuss strategies and opportunities to further increase revenue generated for conservation efforts from the expo permit drawing. Total applications and overall revenue is highly variable based on the types of permits, species and units for each hunting permits (sic) and the number of permits. Permits for highly sought after world-class hunting units in Utah generate significantly more revenue than other permits in the drawing. In fact, the highest revenue generating individual permit had 9,458 applicants with $47,290 in total application fees. The lowest revenue generating tags had 226 applicants for two permits. This generated average per permit application fees of $565. This is a difference of 8,370% in application fees. *This demonstrates that one way to increase application revenue would be to adjust the number and quality of permits available in the drawing.*" I wonder what they mean by "adjust".


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Once again EL,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Expo permits ARE public tags.......

The expo IS a public drawing.........

And over 50% of the expo permits came from the non-res pool ....
Do some research to the begining of the convention permits...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Elk,

No doubt the corrupters would love to get all the premium tags in their hands for distribution. The only thing that would surprise me about this is if it actually surprised anyone that they would try to do this. 

And it will suck when they get it, because it will become one day that the expo is the only way to draw a San Juan rifle tag.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Once again EL,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Expo permits ARE public tags.......
> 
> ...


You must of read that right off of the sfw website. No way they took over 100 non resident tags . I thought the dwr put out a release saying 10% were non resident the rest were from resident pool.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Once again EL,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Expo permits ARE public tags.......
> 
> ...


Expo permits may be public tags, but with four additional stipulations to apply which makes them less available. The applicant has to physically appear with ID at the Salt Palace and he/she only has a 4 day daytime window to do it.

And since they are public tags, why are we giving 70% of the application fees to a private enterprise?

How about you doing the research to prove your point? You're the one making the claim!

Edited: Don't bother! My much simpler research brought me to:
*Utah Code R657-55-3*
(3) The number of wildlife expo permits authorized by the Wildlife Board shall be based on:
(c) the percentage of the permits available to nonresidents in the annual big game drawings matched by a proportionate number of resident permits.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Critter said:


> Yes, if you have already drawn a OIL tag for a species you can still draw the same tag at the Expo. Also waiting periods do not apply either to a Expo tag.


Well...I might as well just start planning my sheep hunt for next year. Sure didn't have much time to plan the last one!


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## Shedhunt (Jan 14, 2016)

Those are pretty good odds. Now I can see how John Bair from SFW has drawn 2 tags at the expo.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Expo permits ARE public tags.......
> 
> The expo IS a public drawing.........
> 
> ...


If it's 50% then they're breaking their own rule. But that wouldn't be a first. All I can tell you is what the law says. Elkfromabove quoted the law, and that indicates 10% are to be taken from the nonresident pool.

I know the drawing is public, that is fairly obvious. Take a cookie from one kid and sell it to another...you're saying that creates more cookies? I guess if you're on the receiving end it may look that way.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

Everyone who knows me for the long haul, know that I have ALWAYS supported SFW. I dropped $100 last year on apps at the show. I was lucky enough to draw the ONE tag out of 1,669 and then got lucky enough to get the only bull I had seen in 4 days and was lucky enough that he was a beautiful bull. 
I love the expo, I love SFW and I love the expo tags. Heck why I am at it I should mention that I love Hunting Elk with my bow!!!  And on top of all of that, I was able to have my son with me. I love family hunts that expo tags provide as well.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Nice elk Scott, thanks for posting.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

2:22 said:


> Everyone who knows me for the long haul, know that I have ALWAYS supported SFW. I dropped $100 last year on apps at the show. I was lucky enough to draw the ONE tag out of 1,669 and then got lucky enough to get the only bull I had seen in 4 days and was lucky enough that he was a beautiful bull.
> I love the expo, I love SFW and I love the expo tags. Heck why I am at it I should mention that I love Hunting Elk with my bow!!!  And on top of all of that, I was able to have my son with me. I love family hunts that expo tags provide as well.


And if RMEF had been given the expo permit contract, none of that would have changed. The only thing that would have changed is that ALL of your $100 would have been given back to wildlife (including those elk you love to bowhunt), instead of the $30 SFW/MDF was mandated to give back.

Awesome elk!


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

elkfromabove said:


> And if RMEF had been given the expo permit contract, none of that would have changed. The only thing that would have changed is that ALL of your $100 would have been given back to wildlife (including those elk you love to bowhunt), instead of the $30 SFW/MDF was mandated to give back.
> 
> Awesome elk!


87,000 that attended the RMEF convention last year and the 30,000 or so that already attend the SFW expo combined would have raised the price of the auction tags and destroyed the draw odds in the 5 dollar permits. Probably around a third less chance to draw.

Though, the amount of money could have helped with Utah conservation.

Though, I'm not sure how much can be done without a new management strategy for elk. An extra 5 - 10 million, probably won't do much if the plan is to continue killing cows and spikes to control elk populations for the age objectives to be met in the units. I do not see why you would want to inflate populations for this when on units we have control tags. IMO that would be a waste of money. For OIL's an extra 5 -10 million would probably help out the most, transplants are not cheap and bison could potentially move other places with farmers being compensated for their losses due to bison, I don't know how much could be done with deer - though a 5-10 million pool to pull funds from would not be a bad thing.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> 87,000 that attended the RMEF convention last year and the 30,000 or so that already attend the SFW expo combined would have raised the price of the auction tags and destroyed the draw odds in the 5 dollar permits. Probably around a third less chance to draw.
> 
> Though, the amount of money could have helped with Utah conservation.
> 
> Though, I'm not sure how much can be done without a new management strategy for elk. An extra 5 - 10 million, probably won't do much if the plan is to continue killing cows and spikes to control elk populations for the age objectives to be met in the units. I do not see why you would want to inflate populations for this when on units we have control tags. IMO that would be a waste of money. For OIL's an extra 5 -10 million would probably help out the most, transplants are not cheap and bison could potentially move other places with farmers being compensated for their losses due to bison, I don't know how much could be done with deer - though a 5-10 million pool to pull funds from would not be a bad thing.


You're right, it would have raised the odds on the expo draw which might have affected 2:22's hunt, but, IMO, they should be higher than the regular public draw anyway since waiting periods and points aren't in play. And did you notice that the impossible odds of winning the SuperBall Lotto didn't stop people from buying those tickets? It won't stop the expo draw either.

You also brought up two other things that would have changed, but wouldn't have affected 2:22's hunt negatively, but would have a positive effect on wildlife.
(1)-The increased attendance would have helped in 2 ways. There would have been more tickets sold and RMEF would have donated about 50% of those sales to the DWR. SFW donates none of those ticket funds to the DWR.
(2)-The increase in auction permit prices would also have helped in 2 ways. There would have been more money paid for each permit and RMEF would have returned 100% (not 90%) of those funds to the DWR and DWR approved wildlife conservation projects.

And to make it even more viable, the increased funds spent on projects are further leveraged with Pittman-Robertson funds, Utah's Watershed Restoration Initiative funds, BLM funds, NFS funds, etc. (According to SFW's RFP, it's as high as $20 to $1) Somehow, it seems that many people think that these funds will decrease if the Expo Permit contract changes hands. Not so! In this case, with RMEF, they would've increased dramatically.

Just because RMEF's main focus is on elk, you need to remember that all of the expo permit application funds are set aside in a separate account and all projects paid from that account must be DWR approved, and the DWR is trying to limit the growth of elk herds, not increase them. So none of the funds would have been wasted.

Bottom line, SFW's RFP pales compared to RMEF's when it comes to wildlife conservation funds. SFW may have won the contract, but the losers are the wildlife and the majority of Utah's hunters.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

No I don't think I can win the lottery either. Out of the thousands of people who post on here what a couple draw a tag. Correct me if I am wrong wasn't one of the first complaints about sfw was that there connected people were the ones drawing the tags year in year out. Something I am proud of I am not connected to sfw


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I've always heard those complaints, but don't know enough of the players to know if it has merit.

I will say that the year I drew my expo tag, the only reason I was even at the expo was to work the Utah Stream Access Coalition booth there for a day signing up new membership. I took great joy in working a booth at SFW's own expo for an organization that they were against, and I drew a tag as well. It's the little things in life...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Once again, I just have to laugh,

All the SFW Expo permit hate ....?,....

It WAS the state of UTAH DWR that awarded this contract.....:!:.....
And they are the core of this issue.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't hate, or even dislike the expo. I do strongly dislike SFW. But it's because I know what their ultimate goal is, and it's excluding me from a few things that I love.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Once again, I just have to laugh,
> 
> All the SFW Expo permit hate ....?,....
> 
> ...


I don't hate the expo the idea is good. I just dislike the people who run it and the corruption they get away with. Maybe I have to much of a backbone and believe corrupt is corrupt and right is right. Oh well good luck to you that apply


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

By the way,
Great bull elkfromabove. 

If you don't mind saying, which unit ?


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

2full said:


> By the way,
> Great bull elkfromabove.
> 
> If you don't mind saying, which unit ?


Yes very nice bull


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

It was 2:22 that harvested that bull on Dutton.

Not EFA.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Sorry, nice bull 2:22. 

Should not be watching the game while posting.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

2full said:


> By the way,
> Great bull elkfromabove.
> 
> If you don't mind saying, which unit ?


 I wish!  (As stated, it's 2:22's.)
But, then again, I already got the elk for my personal quota of ONE P & Y trophy per species back in 2004 on the Zion unit.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> I wish!  (As stated, it's 2:22's.)
> But, then again,* I already got the elk for my personal quota of ONE P & Y trophy per species back in 2004* on the Zion unit.


And he is a gorgeous bull Lee! 8)


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

I can understand why hunters would continue to put in for the expo tags, especially hoping to draw on OIAL tags, for the most part. Myself, I have never put a dime towards the Expo, including tags. I refuse to support any organization that continues to thumb their nose at the blue collar hunter, and uses our wildlife as a means of financial support, rather than a means to provide true conservation for said critters.

That being said, I tend to agree with goofy to a large degree, in that the UDWR is culpable in supporting SFW and MDF in their massive influence of wildlife management in the state. I fully believe the 'boots on the ground' DWR employees try to do their best, but the upper echelon continues to favor those organizations in their zest for monetary gain. However, that does in NO WAY excuse or justify the philosophy SFW has been brokering and will continue to broker: Reducing opportunity for the blue collar hunter while bolstering the 'Trophy' mentality that is rewarded by more and more welfare $$...

No thanks, I'll pass on any of the tags. As much as hunting (especially deer) is in my blood, I will never compromise my own philosophy of wildlife conservation and sustainability just to have a chance at a tag or two that I may never otherwise draw in my life. But that's just me...


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I have killed 3 6x6 or better on the zion unit, but sadly none of them were big in the score department. That's okay, I am tickled with each. :mrgreen:


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

2full said:


> I have killed 3 6x6 or better on the zion unit, but sadly none of them were big in the score department. That's okay, I am tickled with each. :mrgreen:


 I think that's great and I don't think it's at all sad. Taking 3 mature bull elk on the Zion unit is quite an accomplishment, 'cause there just aren't that many of them. Ya done good. Keep it up and one's bound to score in the books!


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## mrkrik (Jan 26, 2016)

I have a non-resident friend that pulled an archery elk tag. Think it was about 1:1800 odds. As they say, some one has to pull it, but I think those are worse odds than any state draw I apply for. Anyway, he ended up shooting a very nice low 340 bull.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

El Matador said:


> Expo permits are taken out of the public drawing using the same allocation percentages for res/nonres as the public tags. That's around 10% from the nonres pool. Goofy, is 10% considered a majority? Maybe you should edit your post to read, "El Matador, I don't have a clue." :mrgreen:


Here ya go cowboy.....

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/23264.html


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> How about you doing the research to prove your point? You're the one making the claim!
> 
> Edited: Don't bother! My much simpler research brought me to:
> *Utah Code R657-55-3*
> ...


Research not needed here, I was there in the beginning.

Just not sure what year the 50/50 ended , and the moderation began.

EFA?, what have you found?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

It may have been 50-50 the first year, but I don't think it was. The whole 50-50 deal was part of the proposal (partly to deal with the Arizona/USO ruling), but it didn't stick.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Packout said:


> It may have been 50-50 the first year, but I don't think it was. The whole 50-50 deal was part of the proposal (partly to deal with the Arizona/USO ruling), but it didn't stick.


Oh., but yes it did sick....

And it's still not 90/10,,, working that direction, But no were near code!


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Twist words much? I never said it was 90-10 and it isn't 50/50. 

There is also some ambiguity to the whole "Split" of Res/Non-Res. If you look at the actual tags and compare them to the units you see that most of the permits come from the "grey area tags". Say a unit has 76 permits. The 90-10 split is 69-7 or 68-8. (The UDWR has gone either way) Take 2 permits for the Expo and then there are 74 permits so they go with the 67-7. Rarely do they go 68-6. It can effect a low permit unit, but even those could be viewed as pulled from the Res allocation. The 5 non-res sometimes are taken out of the non-res allotment. I'm not saying it is right or wrong.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Oh., but yes it did sick....
> 
> And it's still not 90/10,,, working that direction, But no were near code!


 As I pointed out on the other forum you linked earlier; I asked a question of the DWR at a Wildlife Board meeting about the 5% maximum per species Conservation Permit rule and the answer I got was that the 5% was just a "guideline", not a hard number. Apparently, the 90%/10% resident/non-resident Expo permit rule is also a "guideline" which they can adjust a little (or a lot).

Also, per my response to your PM, I was not aware of what took place nor what was discussed or voted on at the beginning of the program and I have no reason to doubt your word. And any research I do on this may take a while since I'll have to GRAMA the minutes from the DWR since they haven't sent Wildlife Board minutes to Utah Archives since 1989 and I can't do this research there on my own schedule.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It seems like all rules/laws the Wildlife Board and DWR deal with are much more "guidelines" these days. We're pretty much dealing with the Pirate Code.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Packout said:


> Twist words much? I never said it was 90-10 and it isn't 50/50.


Twisting words? Not.....

Simply pointing out , expo permits are no were near the code EFA posted.

Additionally, I was unaware they had moved from a 50/50 split, they have.

2016 expo permits were pulled from, 144 resident and 56 non-res = the 200.

But still, my original point in this thread is valid;
Utah'ns have an opportunity to draw certain permits at the expo they would otherwise
never even have a chance to apply for..


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