# No Camping on Public Lands in Utah: Grand Carbon Emery Counties



## Packout

So did you guys catch the Health Dept in Grand, Emery, and Carbon counties' Public Health Order? It restricts camping on public lands. Only residents of the counties or essential personnel can camp on public lands.

Go to page 4 Section 3:
https://moabcity.org/DocumentCenter/View/2783/SEUHD-Restrictions-Order-03172020-FINAL
Class B misdemeanor then Class A misdemeanor for each additional day.

Maybe the other 26 counties should disallow Carbon, Emery, and Grand county residents from visiting Costco and Sams and buying toilet paper and rice.....

..


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## BigT

Wow.. Thats dumb!

Makes you wonder if law enforcement will even enforce that. Utah County is trying to attempt to make it a Class B Misdemeanor for gathering in groups larger than 10... This would convict half the families down there!


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## backcountry

Last thing we need is some tit for tat county retaliation. There is justified concern for medical resources in those counties in regards to Covid-19. 

That said, maybe someone with more expertise can remark on wether a county's health department can mandate limitations on federal public land. This is a new situation for most of us so I have no clue on how such powers are delimited.

No matter the case, please consider how your actions could affect containment of this novel virus.


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## Packout

backcountry said:


> Last thing we need is some tit for tat county retaliation.


 Uh, did you honestly think I was serious about banning them from shopping outside of their county? It was tongue in cheek comment....... (like many of the posts on this site) 
The rest is a valid concern with the outdoors activities occurring today and over the next 2+ months.


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## backcountry

Given I live in Iron Co. it's difficult to read some political comments as tongue in cheek. 

No harm, no foul if you were joking ( I understood the Costco content to be humorous). Sadly we live in a state were some people believe it's all an overreaction.


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## Vanilla

This is crap. I’ve been on board or at least been made to be okay with every regulation or recommendation on the books so far. But the camping aspect of this is crap.


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## taxidermist

I wonder if the public will just begin to get "cabin fever" so bad, and say screw it, and go ahead and begin life as they did prior to the COVID-19? 


The health department can control the food industry but not the general public. Maybe that's why the local government is trying to place new laws on the books? Kind of like making an example out of the first person/group that resists.


Isn't this similar to a Socialist Government??


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## backcountry

Vanilla said:


> This is crap. I've been on board or at least been made to be okay with every regulation or recommendation on the books so far. But the camping aspect of this is crap.


It's a tough one. I'm hoping to go backpacking next month so I'm torn.

On the other hand though, Grand Co. doesn't have any ICU beds. How would their small hospital deal with an influx of patients during a pandemic especially given the US is seeing a higher number of younger people experiencing severe symptoms? I think they are also trying to mitigate asymptomatic individuals spreading the virus from unavoidable contact at stores or even the hospital from common injuries of an outdoor town.

Unenviable situation for most leadership but especially service industry towns. Even more true with spring break and Easter activities that are approaching.


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## backcountry

taxidermist said:


> Isn't this similar to a Socialist Government??


This doesn't have anything to do with socialism. Our republic and states have flexed, or tried to, these legal muscles before. Who knows if they'll succeed or not.


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## Lone_Hunter

I have to wonder how they are going to enforce that on public lands. Go from camp to camp asking for drivers licenses?


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## Critter

I think that where this is coming from is that these counties have hated the Wasatch front ever since I can remember. 

There have been a number of petitions circulated in Carbon and Grand County to succeed from the state of Utah. They are a different breed than what is along the Wasatch front and hate having to toe the line that the Utah legislature/church dictates to them. They are very independent and always have been. 

This may just be a kick back for what other things have been pushed on them.


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## Vanilla

backcountry said:


> On the other hand though, Grand Co. doesn't have any ICU beds.


I agreed with your previous statement about tit for tat being inappropriate. But this is creating, whether purposefully or not, an "ours" and "yours" situation. So if nobody else can use "their" camp spots, then maybe the fair trade is they can't use any of "our" hospital beds.

Yes, I agree that's a terrible way to look at it, and I don't want that to happen, and it's exactly why their declaration is crap. Enforce the 200 yard boundary on everyone, don't give me this "only we in the proper zip code can use this land" crap. It isn't "mine" and "yours." It's "ours," even in a pandemic. I'm not torn at all.


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## DallanC

Long live the Brown Coats.









-DallanC


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## backcountry

Vanilla said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand though, Grand Co. doesn't have any ICU beds.
> 
> 
> 
> I agreed with your previous statement about tit for tat being inappropriate. But this is creating, whether purposefully or not, an "ours" and "yours" situation. So if nobody else can use "their" camp spots, then maybe the fair trade is they can't use any of "our" hospital beds.
> 
> Yes, I agree that's a terrible way to look at it, and I don't want that to happen, and it's exactly why their declaration is crap. Enforce the 200 yard boundary on everyone, don't give me this "only we in the proper zip code can use this land" crap. It isn't "mine" and "yours." It's "ours," even in a pandemic. I'm not torn at all.
Click to expand...

Maybe you can speak to wether or not a county can even prohibit use of federal land? I'm not sure if the federal LEOs will help enforce it either way.

I'm not convinced it's the right answer but Moab just doesn't have the facilities to treat an influx of tourists who might develop Covid-19. They don't have the capacity. The hospital only has 17 bed and those aren't ICU from what I understand. It's just a logistical nightmare to prepare for the madness the town normally experiences from now until mid-April.

And much of the tourism is Colorado driven, not just Wasatch. (In regards to someone else's comment about animosity).

I want to head to the Escalante region soon but I'm not sure if that would be wise. I've been re-evaluating a lot of hobbies recently. I wonder how often the snowmobilers up on Cedar Mt end up getting hurt and needing a hospital visit and X-ray? As Fauci stated this morning, every non-Corona virus incident at a hospital also puts pressure on limited medical supplies like PPE. Which means we all need to be considering the risk of non-essential activities.

I don't have a a strong opinion either way but can see both sides. Crappy times.


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## brisket

Sounds like it’s time for some Ghandi-style non-violent civil disobedience. Who’s up for a UWN caravan of trailers from the Wasatch Front headed to one of the aforementioned counties? With high enough numbers, they won’t be able to enforce it. Who's with me? Spring break!!!


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## Lone_Hunter

backcountry said:


> Maybe you can speak to wether or not a county can even prohibit use of *federal land?* I'm not sure if the federal LEOs will help enforce it either way.
> .


That is a good point. Most public land is NFS and BLM. The local government at any level, probably has no say in that aside from wildlife management.

State trust lands are, obviously, a different story. Those will all be sold off eventually, so they are a moot point.


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## backcountry

And it's not just SE Utah, it's happening across the West. None of us have black and white answers for such a unique time but I think it's fair to ask outdoorsman to consider how their travel could impact these smaller gateway communities. Many of us may never know if/when we got Covid-19 but could be asymptomatic carriers of the underlying virus. That's a daunting reality for gateway towns with few resources.

https://www.hcn.org/articles/covid19-the-danger-of-self-isolating-from-covid19-on-public-lands

https://www.outsideonline.com/2410530/bikes-social-distance-transportation


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## Vanilla

It’s actually pretty black and white. The president has the ability to close national parks, and should if this concern is valid. I’ve been a little surprised they not only remain open, but became free. Additionally, if camping is to be prohibited, it should be prohibited to all, not just people from other counties. 

I haven’t complained about an action yet. If they took the actions I listed above, that would suck for a lot of reasons, but I doubt I’d complain. This “you cannot come and camp on OUR public lands” rubs me the wrong way in a big way. 

I have no idea the ability for the health department to regulate visitors on federal lands, but I suspect they probably have some ability in times like these. Whether the feds (or sheriff) enforce them is another issue.


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## backcountry

I'm also shocked they have kept the park units open as well. I think the free admission is largely because they have closed all facilities and eliminated entrance booths to reduce any potential contact.


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## Lone_Hunter

Federal or not, I'd avoid national parks. Heck, I'd avoid them anyway. :mrgreen:


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## High Desert Elk

taxidermist said:


> I wonder if the public will just begin to get "cabin fever" so bad, and say screw it, and go ahead and begin life as they did prior to the COVID-19?


I think that is exactly what we we'll start to see. Enough push back will cause what powers may be to end state-wide and county closures. One of the best scenarios discussed by health people is to be outside, in the open air, and in sunlight as this virus doesn't do well in temps above 80 deg and in UV light. Open air speaks to the adage "the solution to pollution is dilution". People can self regulate keeping distance on their own just fine in the open air outdoors.

The economy cannot continue to operate as it has. Service industries and retail cannot continue without steady patronage. Savings accounts will dwindle and people will only be concerned with increasing savings and reduce spending once "things get back to normal".

My speculative nature tells me COVID-19 only really became a serious threat once they started looking for it. We are relying on what reporting China released based on when day 1 or "ground zero" was with patient 1. Many also speculate this virus was world wide sooner than what is being discussed. I know a family locally back in Dec or early Jan that were severely ill with pneumonia like symptoms. I also wonder just how many people are naturally more resilient to this virus.

The real threat is there is no vaccine for it to curb the spread. Misdirection of other illogical activities occupied what would otherwise be a wise use of scarce resources would put everyone much further ahead in this endeavor.


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## backcountry

HDE,

Can you show me your reference for the temperature and UV claim?

And being outside is fine. It's just recognizing where you go and what you do matters. Being outside in our own communities ultimately puts no extra pressure on the limited resources of gateway communities.

But I also believe we are going to see pushback and I think it's fair to assume the biological consequences will follow.


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## middlefork

Quite a few people out and about today getting a walk or run in. 

Saw on the news the lineup to Antelope Island yesterday and dealt with it today on my way elsewhere. People seemed to be acting responsible with still maintaining separation.

I always try to avoid people and dogs as much as possible anyways, but was encouraged to see people out and about.

I think the push back is going to come. If the result is not so good I really think at least for awhile that the majority are not going to care. It is not like each person is going to be directly effected by multiple friends and family die in short order. No more so than life in general.

If that starts to happen then maybe some will say I told you so. But in the end , just bury them and move on.

Last I knew none of us is getting out of here alive.


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## goosefreak

I'll be Turkey hunting down in Southern Utah for the first week of May with a nice comfortable camp, and you can take that to the Bank!


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## Iron Bear

My granddaughter and her boyfriend just returned from a week of camping around Moab ect. They thought it was great having the place to themselves. They saw a few rangers and LE and they never had any trouble. 

I doubt anyone is getting in trouble for camping in the desert.


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## bossloader

so if i made reservations for july in emery county at a PUBLIC campground (potters ponds) i am out my fees and cannot go there if I live in Tooele county that makes no sense, i also have reservations for scofield in may but i think that is Utah county.


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## Iron Bear

Not camping in the desert but a reminder that not all public land is legal to be on.

https://www.ksl.com/article/46734556/17-cited-for-trespassing-on-wildlife-management-lands-dwr-says


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## Huge29

GRand County sheriff just made a post that everyone camping there had been notified that they must leave, so they sure are taking it very seriously. I, too, think this is ridiculous. The health dept is headed up right here in Price, so there is really nothing to the MOab thing that several people have insinuated. The dept simply includes four counties, you missed San Juan in there. The moab people were trying to overpower the district until the other four counties all withdrew and Grand realized that they cant get their way. so they booted the man hating moab women from the district, got a new chairman fellar and here we are with equal representation from all four counties basically by the commissioners of each. one piece that they dont highlight is the fact that any resident of any of the four counties can go to any of the four counties to camp, but no one not from these four counties. Just silly, but here is their explanation.


> We'd like to remind the public that there are current restrictions on all camping in Grand County, per the Southeast Utah Health Department orders. Non-residents are not allowed to camp, including developed and primitive sites. Although we understand the great outdoors may be a good way to self-quarantine, our visitors can place heavy burdens upon our resources. The rural nature of our healthcare facilities presents us with limited services that are already taxed by a potential COVID-19 incident in our area. Currently, there are no known cases in Grand County. One injured visitor who needs overnight medial care means one less of only 17 hospital beds for all of those who live in the county. Additionally, our Grand County Search and Rescue Division is the busiest SAR in Utah. When visitors are lost or injured, our team is called out for rescue, along with Grand County EMS. Oftentimes, we assist along with our fellow law enforcement agencies. Even if a visitor is not exhibiting symptoms of COVID-19, they may still be contagious and increase the risk of infection to our essential first responders, who would then need to be quarantined for 14 days.
> 
> It should be noted that all non-resident campers are currently being contacted by law enforcement officers and closure signage is being established at popular camping locations. Citations can and will be issued, especially in instances of repeat offenders.
> 
> PLEASE, if you are not a Grand County resident, postpone any plans for an overnight stay in Moab, whether that be in a lodging facility or camping, and help us protect our small community. All of us in Grand County thank you for your support.


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## RandomElk16

Packout said:


> So did you guys catch the Health Dept in Grand, Emery, and Carbon counties' Public Health Order? It restricts camping on public lands. Only residents of the counties or essential personnel can camp on public lands.
> 
> Go to page 4 Section 3:
> https://moabcity.org/DocumentCenter/View/2783/SEUHD-Restrictions-Order-03172020-FINAL
> Class B misdemeanor then Class A misdemeanor for each additional day.
> 
> Maybe the other 26 counties should disallow Carbon, Emery, and Grand county residents from visiting Costco and Sams and buying toilet paper and rice.....
> 
> ..


Lol.. so not a health concern since they allow residents.

It's a good thing that states don't have power over federal lands. Another reason I am against them gaining such power.

This is all interesting. Departments should make **** sure they flex on who runs what - and who can make laws/enforce them.

Wasn't the health dept who did the "10 people" is Salt Lake that the governor then said "naw" too?

Edit: Screw it. Every county for themselves. I take Packouts tongue in cheek comment and say it should be serious.


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## PBH

This is interesting.

Anyone else see that Lake Mead had over 40,000 people show up last Saturday?! that's a pretty incredible number, and a number that I'm sure overwhelmed the facilities. With Vegas shutting down, people still want something to do. 


I don't think it will be long before other areas follow suit with closures to public lands / areas.


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## CPAjeff

Yellowstone NP and Grand Teton NP are shut down until further notice. I was planning on taking the family to Jackson this weekend and trying to have somewhat of a 'normal' weekend with them. 

We still might head up there and see all the animals on the refuge.


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## Packout

Summit County issued their "shelter in place order" into the first week in April. They have asked people not to visit/recreate in the county.

If we are closing areas then they are closed to all and not just "outsiders" who may live 10 miles away.


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## Lone_Hunter

RandomElk16 said:


> Lol.. so not a health concern since they allow residents.
> *
> It's a good thing that states don't have power over federal lands*. Another reason I am against them gaining such power.


While I currently have no intention of camping, this thing pisses me off. Who the hell are they to tell me I can't camp on FEDERAL public land? Someone mentioned potters ponds, been there plenty of times, it's in the Manti-La sal NATIONAL FOREST. Not state trust lands. Emery county can get bent. Unless the USFS closes the forest, I don't see how Emery county has any legal authority.


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## Critter

San Juan County here in Colorado announced the other day that it is closed to non locals. However in a paper they mentioned that there is no way that they could make it stick since local jurisdictions can not just put up a closed sign for outsiders.


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## Badin

If the particular activity being targeted - in this instance non county resident camping on federal land - by local regulation does not have to directly relate to local health and safety, then with a few small changes, this concept could really improve hunting and fishing prospects for the residents of those counties that are blessed with rich wildlife resources.


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## RandomElk16

Critter said:


> San Juan County here in Colorado announced the other day that it is closed to non locals. However in a paper they mentioned that there is no way that they could make it stick since local jurisdictions can not just put up a closed sign for outsiders.


Yeah, doesn't make sense for a county to control STATE or FEDERAL land and discriminate who can access those based on where you live.

If someone wanted to raise a stink I am sure they could go get cited and fight it. I'm not in that position - but come hunting season where I hunt in NFS, if this is going on and "residents" can go - I'm going.


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## Vanilla

RandomElk16 said:


> but come hunting season where I hunt in NFS, if this is going on and "residents" can go - I'm going.


Come hunting season, I'm going to be "exercising" and "going for food" in the unit I have a tag, regardless of whatever other things may be in place.

Unless I'm dead. Then I won't go.


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## middlefork

You know there are a few people out there that believe the county sheriff is the only true LE.


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## PBH

Lol. True this ^^


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> Lol. True this ^^


Hey, you guys in the 435 finally have a way to keep all of the d*&n Nevadans and us stoopid Northerners (Utahns) off your mountain!

Now you just have to get your dumb politicians to stop complaining about all the coronavirus restrictions the governor recommends.


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## Badin

Sheriff just needs to declare his office is only authorized to issue tags and licenses in his county. This would definitely break the point creep problem. Lol.


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## Kevin D

K, so I looked up the law Moab health department says gives them legal authority to kick out-of-area people off public ground, Utah code 26A-1-114. Here are some highlights:

(b)
establish, maintain, and enforce isolation and quarantine, and exercise physical control over property and over individuals as the local health department finds necessary for the protection of the public health;

d)
establish and operate reasonable health programs or measures not in conflict with state law which: 
(i)
are necessary or desirable for the promotion or protection of the public health and the control of disease; or
(ii)
may be necessary to ameliorate the major risk factors associated with the major causes of injury, sickness, death, and disability in the state

(e)
close theaters, schools, and other public places and prohibit gatherings of people when necessary to protect the public health;

They could probably make the case they have legal authority to close public ground, but here's the problem as I see it, if they want to close public ground they have to close it to everyone, not just out of area people......at least that is my unlawyerly opinion :shock:


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## Vanilla

Amen, Kevin D. You can't limit it to only "outsiders."



Vanilla said:


> It's actually pretty black and white. The president has the ability to close national parks, and should if this concern is valid. I've been a little surprised they not only remain open, but became free. *Additionally, if camping is to be prohibited, it should be prohibited to all, not just people from other counties. *


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## backcountry

I was initially very supportive of closure but it only seems sustainable if they do a universal requirement. I understood the original justification as it's legitimate health wise, ie endemic cases would already use local resources. But it seems to me it won't meet any other standard. 

I think as this gets worse though, and it stands to reason it will be another 4-6 weeks before we move to any other "phase", I hope people volunteer to cooperate. Just about every county is already going to be stressed on PPE, beds and staffing just dealing with potential cases from locals. I would hope people would take that into consideration with choice of activities.

Last time I went up the hill there were a ton of second home owners from Nevada heading to their cabins. Got stuck behind one and they mentioned their group was going to shelter in place in the mountains. My friends in the Michigan Upper Peninsula are seeing the same surge from ice fishing parties. They have even fewer emergency resources. 

I can't speak to big game season but please consider altering plans during this initial phase. We just don't know how bad it's going to get in these communities.


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## johnnycake

backcountry said:


> I can't speak to big game season but please consider altering plans during this initial phase. We just don't know how bad it's going to get in these communities.


Yes, this. All of you should just cancel your desert bighorn sheep applications toute suite.


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## High Desert Elk

How can a county have jurisdiction on Federal lands...?


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## Kevin D

Spring bear hunts open this weekend, curious what they are going to tell the holders of these hard to draw tags....


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## middlefork

Laws that are not enforced are not too detrimental to those not obeying them.

It does not appear at this time that local law enforcement is getting draconian about enforcement.

As for tag holders I would suspect there needs to be something to make them "whole".


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## middlefork

And the governor says it is ok to hunt and fish.


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## Vanilla

middlefork said:


> And the governor says it is ok to hunt and fish.


But not go to state parks that aren't in the county you reside.


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## middlefork

Vanilla said:


> But not go to state parks that aren't in the county you reside.


Which kinda pisses me off as I have a annual pass. And while I spend quite a bit of time on Antelope Island, I do like to spend some time in Weber, Box Elder and Morgan county's state parks.


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## backcountry

middlefork said:


> Vanilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> But not go to state parks that aren't in the county you reside.
> 
> 
> 
> Which kinda pisses me off as I have a annual pass. And while I spend quite a bit of time on Antelope Island, I do like to spend some time in Weber, Box Elder and Morgan county's state parks.
Click to expand...

Is that really an issue or priority during a global pandemic? I guess I misread that famous quote:

"Don't ask what you can do for your county; ask what other county's state parks can do for you"


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## middlefork

And I like to get out and walk a bit. I would like to do it without a bunch of people or dogs to deal with. Hard to do in the neighborhood. Along with a bit of fishing.

And yes, Willard Bay borders both Weber and Box Elder County, East Canyon is in Morgan County. All within the approximate same 20 mile range. Sorry it tramps on other peoples territory.

And not to mention owning land in Cache county along with Davis.

I'm pretty knowledgeable in how to protect myself and others from contamination. And I'm sure my activities are no more harmful than your fishing trips.


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## Vanilla

backcountry said:


> Is that really an issue or priority during a global pandemic? I guess I misread that famous quote:
> 
> "Don't ask what you can do for your county; ask what other county's state parks can do for you"


Yes, it is a priority for some.


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## backcountry

Unusual priority at the moment.

I get the desire. I'm about 80% sure I won't go ice fishing at Panguitch anymore despite it not being part of the state request. It's in a different county and if something were to happen I would most likely end up initially at the hospital in Panguitch, not Cedar. I would impact their limited supplies and could spread the virus to a new area. But that other 20% is pretty interested in getting in the few remaining days for the season.

As much as we think we can prevent most risks this is a time to consider swallowing that pride. The people at the beaches in FL and CA told themselves the same things. This is probably one of the only times in our lives we'll be asked to accept inconvenience for a few months to reduce the impact of a national and international crisis. We are being asked to accept very minor inconvenience to save lives. 

I assume they know some people will ignore the voluntary guidelines. It's a given for any system. But if enough of us assume we aren't restricted by such measures it will likely become involuntary. And at that point it's likely non-essential movement like fishing in our counties will be restricted. 

Not only that but there is a chance many of us are asymptomatic carriers and could unknowingly spread the disease. 

People get to make their own decisions. But they ultimately could impact more than just that individual. But this time it could be spreading a hideous new disease with no easy treatment.

So it goes. No control over others. And there is always extenuating circumstances we don't know about. But here's to hoping enough people are being selfless and careful to flatten the curve the next 4-6 weeks.


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## Vanilla

That’s a pretty big lecture for someone who is only 80% convinced of its validity. 

I didn’t see anyone say they were going to ignore the directive on state parks. He said he was ticked. Which doesn’t say he is 20% likely to go, just that he’s upset at the directive. 

To compare this to the beaches in Florida is non-sensical. You’ve been rational all along, don’t go and ruin a good run because someone feels the same way about East Canyon (or anywhere else) as you do about Panguitch Lake.


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## Lone_Hunter

*FRIDAY, MARCH 27*
10:51 PM - The *Southeast Utah Health* Department announces its first coronavirus case.






I'm not bitter. Honest. -O,-


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## backcountry

Vanilla said:


> That's a pretty big lecture for someone who is only 80% convinced of its validity.
> 
> I didn't see anyone say they were going to ignore the directive on state parks. He said he was ticked. Which doesn't say he is 20% likely to go, just that he's upset at the directive.
> 
> To compare this to the beaches in Florida is non-sensical. You've been rational all along, don't go and ruin a good run because someone feels the same way about East Canyon (or anywhere else) as you do about Panguitch Lake.


If you understand the governor's request than you'd understand me going to Panguitch isn't being taken off the table. 
It's not state park, hence why I'm still torn. So I'm 100% convinced of its validity and actually trying to stay ahead of such orders. It's unmanned and I haven't seen anyone within a half mile in 2 weeks but even though fishing is still encouraged by the governor I'm trying to stay ahead of the curve on the spirit of our community's needs.

On the other hand most of this thread has been a spirit of resentment towards government measures in public lands to curb the spread of a dangerous disease. So yes, I get the desire to go to state parks outside our counties and being upset. But I'm also not justifying defying county mandates (like Grand and Emery) or rationalizing why I'm exempt from the very easy voluntary guidelines the governor just laid out.

This is one of the simplest times in state and American history to sacrifice for public good.


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## backcountry

PS...An element of weakness from the governor's request is you can still visit most places in SW Utah given their current political take they wrote the governor about. BH & Cedar City tourism finally came out with an ad welcoming people once it's over; not quite asking people to avoid us for now but it's more aggressive than any other measures locally. Bryce was basically begging for people to visit the last advertisement I heard. ST George finally declared a state of emergency, maybe they'll get their act together and realize the disease seems to be especially dangerous for it's counties many retirement communities and Assisted Living facilities. 

But you know, come stay and recreate in SW Utah. (Team Sarcasm)


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## Vanilla

I understand the difference between a state park and non-state park for purposes of the directive. I’m not sure the virus cares much for the differentiation, however. 

If what you said above (what I labeled as a lecture, because let’s be honest...that’s what it was) is truly important, the arbitrary designation of a state park shouldn’t matter. 

Unless you think there is a significance in the chance of spread at Utah Lake State Park versus Lincoln Beach? Or Scofield State Park versus Madison Bay? I can go fish the island at Scofield and be just fine, but better stay away from the state park at Scofield because the danger is higher?

C’mon backcountry, you can see how this is completely arbitrary and the differentiation between state park vs non-state park for what YOU are saying is completely meaningless.


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## backcountry

Vanilla said:


> I understand the difference between a state park and non-state park for purposes of the directive. I'm not sure the virus cares much for the differentiation, however.
> 
> If what you said above (what I labeled as a lecture, because let's be honest...that's what it was) is truly important, the arbitrary designation of a state park shouldn't matter.
> 
> Unless you think there is a significance in the chance of spread at Utah Lake State Park versus Lincoln Beach? Or Scofield State Park versus Madison Bay? I can go fish the island at Scofield and be just fine, but better stay away from the state park at Scofield because the danger is higher?
> 
> C'mon backcountry, you can see how this is completely arbitrary and the differentiation between state park vs non-state park for what YOU are saying is completely meaningless.


Anything but meaningless in the context of the State request being made, which is the context of the conversation, Vanilla. So yes, please be rational about that. As I said, I'm 80% sure I'm about to go above and beyond the designations listed in the Governor's new guidelines because of my concerns about hospital resources. I'm also being honest that the desire to go fishing is strong but in no way am I finding excuses for why I might be exempt from a very simple request made by the state.

And you misrepresented the situation, even if it was accidentally, when you initially stated "that's a pretty big lecture for someone who is only 80% convinced of its validity.". You knew the "it" being" discussed was the new state order, hence my response. You've moved the goalpost now.

But there is a inherent difference in how state parks are staffed and maintained which does play a role in a global pandemic. I've only seen personnel once, total, on Panguitch in a decade of going there. People visiting an out of county manned resource pose a fundamentally different risk to those personnel. I actually think all state parks and national parks should consider closing but that's the decision of someone else.

You know the difference between citizens voluntarily going above and beyond guidelines and open antagonism to those guidelines. This thread is an example of the latter. Some of the first responses to the SE Utah "closures" were open calls for disobedience, wether half hearted jokes is up for debate.

So yes, I'll call attention to a thread that seems to be about antagonism to pretty simple government measures to slow the spread of a hideous disease. And yes I'll be vulnerable to the fact that I'm struggling to find what exact line to take above and beyond such requests, even when the governor has labeled my pursuit "essential".

I think you understand the difference between doing the bare minimum asked and voluntarily doing more. Small government action, like most of Utah seems to be taking, is reliant on understanding that difference.


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## DallanC

I'm just hoping Little Sahara stays open. IDK if it will though with easter coming up.


-DallanC


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## Vanilla

I’m actually okay with the restriction, I just think it’s a joke that you’re going to lecture people on state parks in different counties (keep in mind, they are not closed entirely) but you’re still considering going to different counties to fish. You’re entire argument for gateway communities fails on that one statement. Whether a state park is involved or not. Spirit of the law vs the letter of the law, I guess.

And I don’t consider what has happened a “small” government action at all. My life has been completely upended and altered, along with basically every single person I know as well. There is nothing small about the actions, even just the one saying don’t go to other counties for state parks. That’s where this started. Another member here talked about spending lots of time doing this exact thing. He said he spends lots of time doing that. Saying he can’t seems like a big deal to me.


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## middlefork

I really don't see the problem of state park personnel exposure being greater than that of the recommendation to support your local restaurants by getting take home 2-3 times a week. If that is the consideration then just don't collect fees.

As for overwhelming local hospitals, it is not like a heart attack where you go to the closest facility. There is a reason there are different levels of care for Level 3 Trauma centers and Level 1 Trauma centers.

That overwhelmed clinic in Beaver is going to ship you to the next level of care as soon as they can. Now when every one of the hospitals is maxed out then yes some tough decisions will have to be made. Just like they do every day of the week.


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## middlefork

And kinda funny but I live next door to a hospital that I can't go to because of insurance. Guess where I have to go? Next county over.


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## backcountry

middlefork said:


> I really don't see the problem of state park personnel exposure being greater than that of the recommendation to support your local restaurants by getting take home 2-3 times a week. If that is the consideration then just don't collect fees.
> 
> As for overwhelming local hospitals, it is not like a heart attack where you go to the closest facility. There is a reason there are different levels of care for Level 3 Trauma centers and Level 1 Trauma centers.
> 
> That overwhelmed clinic in Beaver is going to ship you to the next level of care as soon as they can. Now when every one of the hospitals is maxed out then yes some tough decisions will have to be made. Just like they do every day of the week.


Which is actually the point. There is no need to stress other county's resources or expose them to a virus. We are basically being asked to assume we could be asymptomatic carriers. Flattening the curve means recognizing those lower level medical centers still have day to day needs and incidents to care for just for the citizens in their county. PPE is already scarce enough that many locations are forcing healthcare providers to use a single N95 all day long, despite them being designed to use once. Doing our job to prevent them running out or getting sick is part of the equation right now.

If you will already be shipped to another county's hospital from your home than your situation is an outlier that changes the social arithmetic. I guess in your situation the question remains if they will ship you to another hospital if/when you are having a respiratory emergency (the principle reason for hospitalization with COVID-19) because of insurance? Last time I had an emergency they shipped me to the closest one. But maybe your situation is different, there are some odd insurance requirements out there (mine tried to deny payment for an ambulance because they were out of network and we should have called an in network one; don't remember that competitive shopping prompt when calling 911).

If they close the state parks than the entire situation changes. But if you are forced to interact with personnel than the social distancing benefit is broken.


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## Vanilla

backcountry said:


> Which is actually the point. There is no need to stress other county's resources or expose them to a virus. We are basically being asked to assume we could be asymptomatic carriers. Flattening the curve means recognizing those lower level medical centers still have day to day needs and incidents to care for just for the citizens in their county. PPE is already scarce enough that many locations are forcing healthcare providers to use a single N95 all day long, despite them being designed to use once. Doing our job to prevent them running out or getting sick is part of the equation right now.


Agreed!

Whether an arbitrary boarder of a state park is involved or not.


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## backcountry

Vanilla said:


> Agreed!
> 
> Whether an arbitrary boarder of a state park is involved or not.


Yep, which I why I'm voluntarily talking about going above and beyond the recommendations instead of griping about the requests in the existing directive. Starting to see the difference, Vanilla? This thread has been littered with people complaining about fairly basic rules and requests. It started with SE Utah's "closures" and now has expanded to the minor inconvenience being asked by the governor. I have sympathy for people being inconvenienced but in no way is missing 1-2 months of a out of county state parks a big deal in the context of a global pandemic ravaging out country.

Why not talk instead about voluntarily giving up more than is being asked, even when the governor described it as "essential"? There is a night and day difference between what I volunteered up and the spirit of this thread. Shifting the conversation away from defiance and resentment to honestly talking about doing more for our communities is a radical departure from the tone thus far.

Hence the small government reference. You know Utah's actions fall to that spectrum. Requests are different than enforceable mandates. We've had fewer of the latter than many states and our Governor continues to lean on our better angels to do more than is asked so the state doesn't need to enforce unique rules for a pandemic. Because if we don't step up soon and encourage others to reconsider how we feel uniquely qualified to be exempt (we all have the ability to rationalize ourselves out of that request) from the minor inconveniences we are discussing (camping in other counties or not visiting certain state parks) than we are likely going to see them change strategy from cooperation to compliance.


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## Kwalk3

BorisSutherland said:


> I don't know if this rule is still available, but it doesn't make any sense for me. I haven't been camping for a while that's why I'm not aware of some rules, but I'm planning on going on a trip soon and I wonder if there are still some limitations for campers. One of my friends recommended me to look for information on brightcamping.com and I hope I will find some answers there. If someone knows more information about this, please let me know. I'm planning on camping around Pennsylvania and I don't want any surprises, so any feedback will be helpful.


Gee Boris. If i were camping around Pennsylvania the first place I'd look for advice is a post about Utah Covid restrictions.

Spam and eggs for breakfast this morning.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PBH

nice avatar anyway.


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