# New bow questions??



## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

Ok, long time listener , first time caller here. I have been talking about getting a new bow now for quite a while. This year I drew my Kamas Moose tag, and I would really like to take it with a bow. Now I am currently shooting a old 1980 something Fred Bear Whitetail Hunter 2. I hear this might do the job, but I would really like to upgrade, and a moose tag might be the best excuse I will ever have.

My question is this..... All these bows keep talking about speed this and speed that. I see a bow that is rated at 320 fps, and you see them that go up to 350 fps. Now the stuff I have been reading lately talks about Kinetic energy being the key factor to killing big game, not speed. One thing I have noticed is you will have a bow that is rated at 60-70 lbs that says the IBO is 320 FPS, and you can have the exact same bow that is set as 50-60 lb draw weight, and it says the IBO is also at 320 fps. Is the FPS set in a standard?? I hear one person say "this bow will shoot 320 fps at 30" draw set at 70 lbs" If thats the case why is the IBO still 320 fps on the 50-60 lb draw weight bow? Can the Exact same bow shoot the same FPS with different draw weights? If so my question is why would anybody want a 60-70 lb bow if the 50-60lb bow does the exact same thing? Is this where the kinetic energy comes in?? 

I would like a bow that I can have more than enough power for my moose, But truthfully its only going to be a deer/elk bow in the future. I hear that for moose sized game I want to step up to a 400-500 grain arrow, with a 125 grain broadhead, is that where I get more Kinetic energy?? I understand that the speed will be much slower with a heavier arrow, but Ive also heard that speed doesnt matter, its the power behind it?

Now I know i could just go into a archery shop and get these questions answered, But I want some unbiased answers, not somebody trying to sell me something..... Plus the fact that I am kind of a e-bay *****, My bow will most likely come from there new, then I can just take it into a shop to get it set up. Its amazing how much cheaper bows go for on there. Any help would be great. Thanks guys!!!!


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

basically it breaks down like this..... A lot of guys are crazy about speed, because it compensates for your inability to correctly judge distance. For instance, on a bow that shoots 212 fps, the trajectory from 10 yards to 50 yards will look about like a rainbow, with significant drop between 20, 30, 40, and 50 yards. With a deer sized target at 30 yards, if you misjudge and use the 20 yard pin you'll miss under him, if you use the 40 yard pin, it'll sail clean over his back. And the odd choice of speed there, is because that's exactly what my first bow shot at. Funny, I killed a whole lot of deer with that bow. 

A bow that shoots 350 fps, will shoot fast enough that if you accidentally use the wrong pin in the 30 yard range, you're only going to be a few inches low or high. (using the 20 yard pin at that speed you'll hit about 3" low, and depending on your zero if you use the 40 yard pin you'll probably be in the 8 top 10" inch high range. Not fantastic, but it'll still make contact with the animal, thus the importance of knowing distances well) 

Now, looking at your description of the bow above, the difference between the 60-70 pound bow that has an ibo speed of 320 fps, and one at 50-60 pounds shooting the same speed is more than likely going to be the result of the design of the cams. A more agressive cam gives you a much higher speed for the same weight arrow. It also is a hell of a lot harder to tune correctly, and will exacerbate any flaws you might have in your shooting form. Also the draw cycle won't be nearly as smooth. You'll be able to feel a noticible "shelf" in the draw cycle. And if the cams on an aggresive cam bow ever get out of sync, you're going to have a real hard time getting any kind of accuracy out of it. 

The less agressive "medium" type cams don't give as much arrow speed, and it's more crucial to really get proficient at knowing yardages out to your effective lethal range. That being said, when you're sitting in the brush trying to pull back the string as stealtily as possible with as little movement as possible, the lower draw weight and less aggressive cams will usually be a lot easier to pull back slowly, smoothly, with frazzled nerves and cold muscles. 

And lastly, you're dead right. A heavy arrow with a cut on impact style head will have more energy to drive deep in a moose sized animal than an ultra light but faster arrow. And if you for some reason make contact with that massive shoulder bone, with a lighter arrow, you're not going to do much more than make that moose angry and send it two counties over. You need to get that arrow placed exactly right and drive it deep to kill that thing. But with the heavier arrow, you at least have a chance of getting through and killing it. But I can't stress enough the importance of chot placement on game that large. For a target that big, it's amazing how much can go wrong with just a few inches difference.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

Force is mass x speed, so the heavier the arrow and the faster it is going, the more kinetic energy your arrow will have.

I think Wasatch gave a very good explanation on the arguments for either one.

On a bow rated at 320 ibo, most people aren't going to be shooting that speed. for a hunting setup you will more likely be shooting around 270-290 on that 320 rated bow. It depends a lot on your draw length and draw weight too.

I think if is for sure worth you upgrading. You can get a bow that will be lots faster (and probably lots lighter) for pretty cheap now. If you aren't looking to get the top of the line, there are plenty of new bow packages out there for under $400. But there are some pretty cool ones out there for more.

If you watch KSL and archery talk you can get a 300+ ibo bow that is a couple years old for around 200 bucks. If you go that route, make sure you are getting on that is the right length and weight for you.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

Here's something else to think about. Kinetic energy is important and people talk a lot about shooting a heavy arrow. Let's say I have a bow that is a 65 lb draw and a 29 inch draw. It really shouldn't matter how heavy my arrow is, the evergy will be really close to the same. Because a lighter arrow will go faster, a heavy arrow will go slower. The delivered energy from the bow to the arrow, and consequently-- from the arrow to the animal/target will be about the same. 

You do need to have an arrow that is built for the amount of energy your bow is putting into it. I think a rule of thumb is about 6-7 grains per lb of draw. So I shouldn't move much below 380 grains for my 65 lb bow -- FOC is also important. FOC refers the the balance of the arrow - whether it is heavy or not. I think you want this to be somewhere in the 10-15 % range. So it's not too front heavy and tracks well. (at least that is my understanding).

As long as you stay above that minimum, and put a balanced tip on the end, you should be in pretty good shape.

I just picked up a new bow and wasn't really feeling the speed difference from my mid 90's PSE until I stepped back to 40 yards. It wasn't near the "rainbow" I was seeing from my old bow and felt great. I'm excited to get out and shoot it some more and shoot through a chrony to see what speeds I am getting.


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

Thanks for the replies guys. I do understand what you are saying. So am I correct in saying that a 50-60 lb bow that shoots 320 fps, will transfer less kenetic energy into an arrow shot from a 60-70 lb bow that also shoots at 320 fps? I know this is a dumb question, but how do you determine your draw weight? Regardless of your size, I would thing the less the draw weight you are pulling back, the better off you are, but how much power are you giving up by going with a lower draw weight? It seems pretty standard that an adult shoots a 70 lb bow from the ones Ive been looking at. 

Im a big guy, with plenty of meat and muscle on me, would I be best just going with a 70 lb bow for this moose hunt?

I agree that you can get some good deals out there. I definately wont be going with the latest or the greatest. For god sakes im by no means rich (hence the 1980's bow I shoot) But I figure I can put a little money into a good bow. Ive been looking at getting something on the lines of a Hoyt Alpha Burner, Alpha Max or the Maxxis, Or mabey something along the lines of the Mathews switchback, or middle range Bowtech. Seem to be able to get all of the above in the $300-500 range, and the site, rest etc ive got on my bear bow will work fine for a while. I would just rather go with a better bow for now, because it will most likely have to last me for quite a few years :lol:


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

Just get an Elite Hunter and be done with it...not super fast, but fast enough...forgiving brace height and smooth draw for a binary cam bow...shoot at least 60lbs draw weight with a 400 grain arrow and watch em drop...oh and you won't break the bank on one either!


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## ut1031 (Sep 13, 2007)

+++++1 for what Stablebuck said!

You are welcome to shoot my Elite anytime you would like. There are a LOT of good bows out there. If you are an "Ebay *****" you will really want to check out Archerytalk.com

Congrats on the tag and the hunt of a lifetime! Tagging out with archery tackle will only make it better. Get the bow ASAP as daily practice is the key. There are some really good shoots happening and there is always the Friday evening shoots at the range in Parley's. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you want to give it go. I shoot a 60lb bow at 30" draw.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

STEVO said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. I do understand what you are saying. So am I correct in saying that a 50-60 lb bow that shoots 320 fps, will transfer less kenetic energy into an arrow shot from a 60-70 lb bow that also shoots at 320 fps? I know this is a dumb question, but how do you determine your draw weight? Regardless of your size, I would thing the less the draw weight you are pulling back, the better off you are, but how much power are you giving up by going with a lower draw weight? It seems pretty standard that an adult shoots a 70 lb bow from the ones Ive been looking at. :


No, if the arrow weighs the same, and it it going the same speed it will have the same energy. So no matter how hard it is to pull back if the arrows is going 320, it will have the same energy. Make sure that the IBO rating is at the draw weight you are looking to shoot. I don't know of many bows out there though that are rated at 320 at less than 70 pounds.

Also, on your question of draw weight. Some guys want to max out thier speed and pull the most they can handle. I like to back it off a little so I know I can draw in any situation. Like sitting down behind a bush or something. Its a lot harder to draw sitting down. Or how many times have we drawn on an animal to have him stop behind a tree at 30 yards for 5 minutes. You might have to hold it for a while, or let down and redraw. If your arm is really tired lots of things can go wrong.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

torowy said:


> Also, on your question of draw weight. Some guys want to max out thier speed and pull the most they can handle. I like to back it off a little so I know I can draw in any situation. Like sitting down behind a bush or something. Its a lot harder to draw sitting down. Or how many times have we drawn on an animal to have him stop behind a tree at 30 yards for 5 minutes. You might have to hold it for a while, or let down and redraw. If your arm is really tired lots of things can go wrong.


Determining your draw weight is totally up to you. If you feel like you can shoot 70 pounds - and hold the draw long enough to wait for an animal to present a shot then do it. IBO on bows is typically based on a heavy draw and a long draw length (like 80 lbs and 30 inches) and I assume they are shooting a light arrow because it's not very often that guys are seeing speeds equal to the reported IBO on a bow spec sheet from a hunting setup.

That being said, the higher your draw weight, the longer your draw length, and the lighter your arrow -- the faster your arrow will shoot.

Increase the weight of your arrow and the speed will slow down, but the kinetic energy won't. But decrease your draw weight/length and the energy will decrease.

Draw Length is the one variable that is going to be set for you. Determining arrow weight and Draw weight is up to you. Kinetic energy will varry depending on your draw weight or arrow weight which will result in faster or slower speeds.

Here are a few links from the goldtip website that I have found useful in understanding all of this:

http://goldtip.com/calculatorcontent.aspx?coid=1

http://goldtip.com/calculators.aspx


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

on the subject of draw weight, I would recommend the following. If you can draw the bow smoothly, straight back, slowly, in a sitting position, you're golden. There are pelnty of people out there that shoot 70 pound bows, that dont practice enough with it, that have to do the raise the bow up and draw as they bring their bow hand down. If you have to move the bow hand to draw back, you're pullin gtoo much wieght. There isn't a deer, elk, or moose alive that will hold still at 10 yards while you lift your left arm clear up in the air and swing the bow down to draw.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

WasatchOutdoors said:


> There isn't a deer, elk, or moose alive that will hold still at 10 yards while you lift your left arm clear up in the air and swing the bow down to draw.


Because they're dead already.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

hahaha


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

svmoose said:


> WasatchOutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > There isn't a deer, elk, or moose alive that will hold still at 10 yards while you lift your left arm clear up in the air and swing the bow down to draw.
> ...


But you get what I'm saying, if you cant draw your bow back with only minimal movement, youre shooting at too high a draw weight.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

WasatchOutdoors said:


> But you get what I'm saying, if you cant draw your bow back with only minimal movement, youre shooting at too high a draw weight.


I 100% agree with you Wasatch.


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

This is what IBO is: Ibo is a standard which gives you and idea of the speed of the bow and at the poundage it is set at. It is 5 grains per pound set at a 30 inch draw. So a 70# bow would use a IOB arrow of 350 grains. A 60# bow would be rated with a 300 grain arrow, and remember these speed are rated at a 30 inch draw. Most bow companies cheat the IBO speeds by using at longer draw length or a few extra pounds then the set standards, so be careful. If your are a long armed monkey then speed really is not an issue with a modern bow. But if you are vertically challenged like me you will want to look for something that has some speed. Not all bows are created equal and don't assume that just because they have tons of advertising and hype that they are a better bow. There needs to be a unaffiliated agency that does the IBO testing on all bow companies to set the record straight of IBO speeds.


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

Archery can be as involved as you want to be. You can pick any bow, get some arrows and go shoot. Or you can plan, obsess, and think through every little detail to your set up. You will be fine with any newer bow you get. If the draw length fits you properly and the weight is manageable, you will be doing better than some "archers" at that point.

While we are on the subject of somewhat over thinking things- KE is great, but not the end killer, momentum is. While you may get roughly the same KE from a lighter arrow, as compared to a slower heavier arrow. The heavier arrow will always out penetrate the light arrow. It takes less resistance to stop or slow an object with with less weight.
For moose, I would have as much momentum as I could get. And practice my ranging skills. To help off set the arrow trajectory. I believe there is a a happy medium between speed, weight, and KE/momentum.
The cool thing about archery is its up to the shooter to decide to have fast flat shooting arrows or slower arching arrows that hit harder. Neither one is wrong. I for one, shoot the heaviest arrow I can at 285-290 fps. Right now that arrow is 430gr. at 289 fps. 
Do remember, if you have a very fast bow, your pin gaps will be very small, limiting what you may be able to see.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

Kinetic energy and momentum are the same thing. If 2 arrows are going the same speed the heavier one will penetrate deeper.


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

I beg to differ that momentum and KE are the same thing.


Kinetic energy is how much energy a moving body can carry. Momentum determines how that energy is delivered.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

Kinetic Energy and Momentum are very close to the same thing. Kinetic Energy refers to the amount of force required to get a certain mass to a certain speed. (Mass x acceleration). Momentum refers to the force of the projectile at a certain speed. (Mass x velocity). Both of these vectors are a unit of energy (N) over distance. Neither the weight ( mass of an object) or its speed has greater significance as they are equal in finding these values. The biggest difference in these is that Momentum can be quantified post collision. In essence Momentum is the force of an object over a distance and KE is the force it took to get there, and according to Newton's law - the same force it will take to stop the object again. (minus friction)

Now some people think that KE/Momentum or speed makes a huge difference. In my opinion they are important, but I think other things are of more importance. Here is my list from most important to of lesser importance:

1. Arrow Placement: If you hit an animal outside of the vitals it doesn't matter how much energy your arrow has, it will most likely not result in a recovered animal.

2. Penetration: After your arrow goes in the right place, you want to get penetration - hopefully a double lung/heart trauma. Penetration is a factor of Kinetic Energy/Momentum, friction, and Arrow/tip Composition and mechanics. This is where your arrow speed/draw weith/length/kinetic energy comes in to play, along with the spine/weight of your arrow and your broadhead. If you hit a rib square on, you want your arrow to flex around it, or break through it.

3. Cutting of broadhead: Once your arrow is in the vital organs of your prey, hopefully it will do a bunch of damage resulting in a quick death.

4. High Fives! Hopefully you have someone there to enjoy the experience with.


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

So you all see how a new guy into this sport could get a little confused huh? :lol:

I do understand what you are saying. I have been doing alot of reading up on the bows, and what things mean on them. I wish I could afford to get the latest and greatest thing, but unfortunately that just isnt gonna happen this year. Im looking in the 300-400 dollar range. there are some good used bows online in that range. Most recently ive been looking at a Bear Truth 2. Not the latest and greatest, but I can get a new bow for about 300 bucks. Seems fast enough and the reviews Ive read on it look to be good. I should be able to use my site, whisker bisquit etc from my old bow. Just need to set up the new peep and a new quiver.

Man I can already tell this year is going to be expensive. The $408 tag, new bow, arrows, 1000-1400 for the mount , 400-500 for meat processing.... Lots of scouting ,gas money and time.... All I can say is I better get a big bull :lol: Now if August can just get here sop I can get out in the hills and looking for animals!!!! Got a feeling this hunt is going to wreek hell on my fishing for the year, but man im excited. I havent slept a full night since they charged my card and each week closer to the hunt starting is going to be even less sleep im thinking!!!

Now just need to make it through the season sucessfully without the woman leaving me :mrgreen:

SV moose, I know what you mean about having a perfect shot. To be honest this (hopefully) will be my first bow kill (outside squirrels and birds :mrgreen: ). With the bow im shooting now, I wont shoot at an animal unless im in my comfort zone, and unfortunately its at only 30 yards max, completely broadside. Had lots of shot opportunity, but never taken the shot on a big game animal. Im planning on hunting the entire first part of the hunt with a bow in my hand (rifle/or muzzle loader on my shoulder just incase there is a monster outside bow range) then depending on how things go in that hunt, will decide later for the 2nd part of the hunt. In my mind there isnt a cooler first archery kill than a bull moose. The kill zone charts ive been looking at , it seems like its gonna be pretty easy to get within a kill shot on a moose The lungs are huge and dont seem to be very well hidden. Guess time will tell how it goes


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

Stevo, that sounds awesome. I wish I would have pursued my moose with a bow, but I just shot him with a rifle at 70 yards. Oh well, I'm glad I got him.

I honestly don't think you can go wrong with any new bow. I just picked up a parker bow used and I'm liking it a lot. It's not a top end bow and it is 3 years old or so, but I can tell a difference from my old mid 90's PSE.

Another bow to look into might be a new PSE Nova One. They've put a single cam on the always dependable nova and its producing and IBO of 305. It sells from PSE for $280 barebow.

http://pse-archery.com/products/categor ... 6154.0.0.0

Of course if you can shoot before you buy. Good Luck!


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

I bought a bow this year from Diamond (basically bowtech's ugly step sister) and the thing shoots great. The only complaint I've got is that it's driving the arrows a lot deeper into the target than my old bow, to the point that it's a geinuine pain in the hiney to pull them back out. 

But I did see that Cabelas has the Diamond Rock 2.0 package for $399. comes with a lighted 3 pin sight, sling, hostage arrow rest, quiver and whatnot. Might not be a bad little bow for the money. 

If I ever get my moose tag (12 points and counting) I really would love to take it with my bow, but I feel like I owe it to my Grandfather who passed on a year a go to use his old 30-30. That gun has taken everything from bears to moutain goats over the last 80 years.


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

I will have to check out both of those bows.

Wasatchoutdoors, Im in the same position with a gun I own. My grandpa owned a old 30-06 belgium Browning, that I LOVE. Its been a awesome gun and it has taken alot of deer and elk in its time. It was passed down to my dad, in which passed it down to me on my first deer hunt. That rifle is still by far my favorite and accurate gun I own. I would still like to take it with a bow as my first kill, but if that doesnt happen most likely it will be killed by that rifle


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

Well I took the plunge today. Ended up with a 1 year old Hoyt Powerhawk. Couldnt see much online in reviews, but it looks like its a pretty good bow and the price was right in my range. its definately on the lower end of the hoyt bows, but looked pretty good for the price. It says its rated at 303 fps, which hopefully with 70 lbs and my 29" draw it will give it plenty of power for a moose hunt. Should get here in the next week or so, now comes the fun part of shooting it!!!!


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

STEVO said:


> Well I took the plunge today. Ended up with a 1 year old Hoyt Powerhawk. Couldnt see much online in reviews, but it looks like its a pretty good bow and the price was right in my range. its definately on the lower end of the hoyt bows, but looked pretty good for the price. It says its rated at 303 fps, which hopefully with 70 lbs and my 29" draw it will give it plenty of power for a moose hunt. Should get here in the next week or so, now comes the fun part of shooting it!!!!


Congrats on the new bow. That a pretty good bow and it will do the Job on the moose.Get it set up and everything else and start shooting like crazy. only got what just a little over 3 months before the BIG HUNT.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

Nice, that should work out great.


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