# Looking for shooting help



## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I bought my first large caliber hunting rifle earlier this year, a tikka superlite in .30-06. I started hand loading ammunition earlier this year as well and thought I'd found a really solid load for my gun, where I could somewhat consistently shoot 0.50-0.75 MOA with a few occasional fliers (or maybe they were poorly executed). Over the last month or two, my groups have become much worse and I can't figure it out. So, I just can't figure out whether it's primarily my shooting ability or something to do with my hand loads. I don't know anyone that shoots for groups or develops hand loads, so I have no one to ask and feel like I've been chasing my own tail for awhile.

Is there anyone on this forum that might be interested in helping me out? I primarily shoot at the Lee Kay range in SLC, usually once a week. I'm looking for someone that is definitely capable of shooting 0.75 MOA or better with a high recoiling light rifle and has experience developing loads. I'd like to get with someone to either work through a set of various powder charges to find a load we know is accurate (so I can practice my shooting with a known accurate load) or just have the person shoot 20 or so rounds of a load that used to be accurate to me.

Here's some more information in case anyone has any ideas off right off the bat:

- tikka t3x superlite synthetic .30-06, did some extra freefloating with a dremel
- scope is properly mounted and not moving
- first load I worked up that gave good results was h4350 powder, at 57.2gr and 60.8gr, cci200 primer, sierra prohunter SP 150gr seated off the lands about 0.015, lee factory crimp
- cases I used initially when shooting this load accurately were either winchester, remington, or federal... up to 4 firings on the cases, not annealed, using a FL sizing die but only sizing enough to bump the shoulder back a couple thousandths
- when I first developed the load and it was shooting well, it was over the summer so the temps were about 85-95F.
- my accuracy issues started in the last month or two. One would think a temp swing of 90F to 25F might cause a change in the accuracy of the load, but H4350 is supposed to be really temp stable. I've not changed powder charges to test this, because I'm wondering if it's my shooting technique or not


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

The research I've done in the past on the 30-06 was the 165 gr. bullet had the best all around ballistics for hunting big game.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Flinch? Load up a couple inert dummy rounds. Have your buddy load your gun with both real and dummys in random orders. Shoot and see if you flinch on a dummy... or if your groups magically get better because you are concentrating more on not flinching.


-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

What do you do for barrel cleaning and copper removal?----SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Use this stuff. Any blue on a patch and you still have copper. It foams up nicely, can leave it in a barrel over night with no damage.










-DallanC


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

I would help you out but I'm in Ogden. I will say if a good load falls apart its usually me and my trigger pulling. If you want to come to Ogden / Wasatch Shooters Association range I would be happy to shoot a few and see whats what. Just got home from the range myself, sighted in my 204, 25-06 and 7mm RM after lapping the scope rings.

Are your action screws tight and tightened consistently? I have one rifle that I figured out likes consistent torque on the action screws so now if I take a stock off any rifle I torque the screws. My torque recipe is 30 inch pounds for the front screw, 20 inch pounds for the mid screw if there is one and 20 for the rear screw. 

Not that it should matter but there is no need to crimp bolt action rifle rounds until you start messing with the big boys and that is debatable as well.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

DallanC said:


> Flinch? Load up a couple inert dummy rounds. Have your buddy load your gun with both real and dummys in random orders. Shoot and see if you flinch on a dummy... or if your groups magically get better because you are concentrating more on not flinching.
> 
> -DallanC


Yup.... I've been wanting to do that but don't have a buddy. I may sweet talk my wife in to going to the range for a day with me.



Springville Shooter said:


> What do you do for barrel cleaning and copper removal?----SS





DallanC said:


> Use this stuff. Any blue on a patch and you still have copper. It foams up nicely, can leave it in a barrel over night with no damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was using hoppes no 9 at first until spilling the bottle. Now I'm using Butch's bore shine since I had it on hand. I have sweets for copper but don't use it. I'm not a believer of needing to remove all copper from the barrel all the time and haven't had any experiences yet that lead me to believe I should be doing that. In shooting this gun, it almost seems like it's more accurate when I don't use the sweet's to remove all copper.



muddydogs said:


> I would help you out but I'm in Ogden. I will say if a good load falls apart its usually me and my trigger pulling. If you want to come to Ogden / Wasatch Shooters Association range I would be happy to shoot a few and see whats what. Just got home from the range myself, sighted in my 204, 25-06 and 7mm RM after lapping the scope rings.
> 
> Are your action screws tight and tightened consistently? I have one rifle that I figured out likes consistent torque on the action screws so now if I take a stock off any rifle I torque the screws. My torque recipe is 30 inch pounds for the front screw, 20 inch pounds for the mid screw if there is one and 20 for the rear screw.
> 
> Not that it should matter but there is no need to crimp bolt action rifle rounds until you start messing with the big boys and that is debatable as well.


Yea I'd definitely like to come up to Ogden some time. Maybe the week after Christmas or so.

I don't have a torque wrench but is on my list. I just use the same screwdriver and try to apply the same amount of torque by feel each time.

The crimp is supposed to help with consistency in bullet hold and thus pressure and speed. Of course you can get consistency without a crimp by doing a lot of work on neck thickness, annealing, etc, but I don't have the tools to do so. Also, it makes the cartridge more resistant to the bullet moving and more weather proof. Since I'm planning to use some of these loads for hunting, I figure I might as well do it!


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Lots of things to do. Check all your screws with a torque driver, like a wheeler. Start with the stock screws and then torque the base(s) then the rings. If you were closer I'd be willing to help you out. Set the seating depth of the bullet to the chamber of that rifle. Select a projectile the will do the job you need done then start doing some ladder tests with different powders. There will be a combination that will work better then all the others. Is your Butches Bore Shine an abrasive ? If so stay away from it. I use a lot of Hoppes, but Shooters Choice will work well. I'm hearing good things about Shooters Lube also. Find a cleaner you like and wear out a couple of brushes. Dry mop it out with several dry patches. Good luck and let us know how it goes. Don't be afraid to ask questions. What are you using to stabilize the weapon when you're shooting ? Nice set of bags, Harris type bipod or anything that will stabilize the rifle is very important.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Are you cleaning after every outing? I have found that most rifles shoot better fouled and it will tell you when it needs cleaned by the group size getting bigger. I clean mine each fall and then leave them dirty until the next fall unless they tell me to clean them.

Not to beat crimping to death as some think it helps with consistency but most don't. Your sizing die and expander ball sets the neck tension sure thicker brass can make the neck a little tighter but not enough for most of us to notice. I've been loading for 40 years and don't anneal or mess with next turning. I just measured the 30 pieces of 7mm RM RP and Win brass going on its 4 firing I shot today with my new neck tension gauge and it all measures the same.

Tapper crimping provides little help keeping a bullet in the case, neck tension and having around a caliber of bullet in the case is what keeps a bullet from moving. To heavy of a crimp can actually cause more issues then it helps especially if your not crimping in a crimp groove as your actually denting the bullet then the brass is springing back which reduces tension. If your seating to a crimp groove instead of seating to just under the lands or mag length then you might not be seating to the optimal depth.

I conducted a little test a few years ago with both my 7mm and 25-06, I loaded a couple rounds in the bottom of my mag then proceeded to shoot 30 rounds out of each leaving the same two rounds in the mag. When I was done shooting I measure the OAL to the ojive with my Hornady Comparator and they measured the same as when I started. I have performed this test on other calibers from time to time shooting less rounds and have yet to see any movement in a bolt rifle.

Don't think a crimp really makes a round more waterproof, I've never had an issue with my hunting rounds and I have been wet enough a few times I should have just went swimming instead of hiking.

Sometimes after Christmas I will be heading out to help a buddy work up a load in his new 375 H&H cannon plus sight in a new scope on my 308 so let me know if you want to meet up.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

muddydogs said:


> Are you cleaning after every outing? I have found that most rifles shoot better fouled and it will tell you when it needs cleaned by the group size getting bigger. I clean mine each fall and then leave them dirty until the next fall unless they tell me to clean them.
> 
> Not to beat crimping to death as some think it helps with consistency but most don't. Your sizing die and expander ball sets the neck tension sure thicker brass can make the neck a little tighter but not enough for most of us to notice. I've been loading for 40 years and don't anneal or mess with next turning. I just measured the 30 pieces of 7mm RM RP and Win brass going on its 4 firing I shot today with my new neck tension gauge and it all measures the same.
> 
> ...


If I can get better or the same results without a crimp and without danger of bullet depth changing, then I definitely don't want to spend time doing it. I just started doing because it came with my die set and the reasons for using it that were stated in my manual made sense... So why not?

I think I found a couple of extremely long threads on here about crimping....

As for cleaning, do you leave your barrel as-is after shooting it? No oil or carbon fouling solvent at all?

I started out by cleaning all the copper out every time, then decided to only clean with hoppes every time, which helped accuracy a lot and was able to get a consistent 0.75 moa or better. I spilled my bottle of hoppes and now use Butch's bore shine since nice I had it on hand, which has a copper remover, so I may need to go get some more hoppes.

I'll typically shoot 20 rds each trip to the range and clean after getting home. I do a bore mop saturated with solvent, then wet brush for 20-30 strokes, then wet patch until it comes out clean, then dry patch, then light oil patch which is dry patched out before shooting on the next trip.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

No nothing down the barrel, bring it home and put it in the safe the way it is, well I wipe the outside with my oil rag and check the bolt face for carbon or brass build up. I might if I'm getting up around the 200 mark for round count run a dry bore brush down the barrel just to knock a little carbon and fowling loose.

Years ago I got tired of the Hoppes smell and started questing for a new bore cleaner. I settled on M Pro 7 line of products, the bore cleaner works great as well as there oil. I use M Pro's copper solvent every once in a while and have a bottle of the bore jell on hand to use on really bad bores.

My cleaning routine is a couple wet patches of bore cleaner, bore brush for how ever many strokes I feel like, wet patch then dry patch or two. After the dry I will run a couple wet and dry patches down the bore and if they look good I run a light oil patch and call it a day. If the wet dry patches come back dirty I will start over. Every 300 ish rounds I will work the bore over with the M Pro copper solvent, I really don't have a set routine for when I do this.

My old 7mm RM is over 30 years old, I put a lot of rounds (probably 1500 +) through it before I knew any thing about cleaning. About 5 years ago the accuracy dropped off substantially and I figured the barrel was shot out. After doing some internet research I tried removing the copper which didn't help but what helped was polishing the bore with a bore paste. I started with JB bore paste then switched to Iosso bore paste and a few 100 strokes of tight fitting patches with bore paste applied cleaned the old girl right up. She didn't let me down this year, put the Accubond right on the money with a 220 yard offhand shot on a bull elk.

My new muzzy a few years ago was giving me fits, just couldn't get a load to shoot well at all. After a little internet looking I bought into the theory that if the bore was ruff from manufacturing sabots would never smooth it out so I needed to. So out came the Iosso once again and after a bunch of strokes down the barrel sure enough the muzzy started shooting great groups at 100 yards.

Since the 7mm and muzzy bore paste trials the first thing I do with a new firearm is give the bore a few strokes of bore paste before I even start shooting it no matter if the firearm is new or used.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

A couple of thing that the other guys missed, these things are quite a ways down the list of remedies but are valid. 
1) check your muzzle very closely with a magnifying glass for any burrs or nicks or ramrod wear.
2) check the case capacity on every case. Brass stretches after multiple loading resulting in quite a variation in capacities. Group cases with similar capacity. Do this after every few reloads.
3) weigh each bullet and discard any deviates.
4) Not sure how many rounds you've put through the old girl, but barrels do way out.

Remember, consistence is the secret to tight groups. If all the components were exactly the same and your loads were constructed exactly the same way and if you could hold exactly the same and the weather conditions were exactly the same, you would always make only one hole in the target.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I never had much luck with Hoppes removing copper. I used to use Sweets until I discovered Wipe Out. Its the bomb... never going to even try anything else from here on out.




-DallanC


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Don't be afraid to be a sissy and use a sissy pad.https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Plus-Recoil-Shield-Ambidextrous/dp/B004PS3UIW/ref=sr_1_4?crid=30ZHQ9RS1KVSV&dchild=1&keywords=past%2Bshooting%2Bpad&qid=1577107088&sprefix=pact%2Bshooting%2B%2Cgarden%2C188&sr=8-4&th=1

I can shoot a lot of rounds out of larger calibers with this pad on, really haven't found my limit yet but I do know that 10 to 15 rounds out of the 7mm before I got this pad was enough for the day. Friday I shot 40 rounds between the 7mm and 25-06 with no ill effect.

Get the 1/2" model, I purchased the 1" model originally but ended up taking out some stitching and removing a 1/2" layer of foam as it was to thick for proper stock mount.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

muddydogs said:


> Don't be afraid to be a sissy and use a sissy pad.https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Plu...sprefix=pact+shooting+,garden,188&sr=8-4&th=1
> 
> I can shoot a lot of rounds out of larger calibers with this pad on, really haven't found my limit yet but I do know that 10 to 15 rounds out of the 7mm before I got this pad was enough for the day. Friday I shot 40 rounds between the 7mm and 25-06 with no ill effect.
> 
> Get the 1/2" model, I purchased the 1" model originally but ended up taking out some stitching and removing a 1/2" layer of foam as it was to thick for proper stock mount.


I have one of those too. Really like it for lots of range shooting.

-DallanC


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

muddydogs said:


> Don't be afraid to be a sissy and use a sissy pad.https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Plu...sprefix=pact+shooting+,garden,188&sr=8-4&th=1
> 
> I can shoot a lot of rounds out of larger calibers with this pad on, really haven't found my limit yet but I do know that 10 to 15 rounds out of the 7mm before I got this pad was enough for the day. Friday I shot 40 rounds between the 7mm and 25-06 with no ill effect.
> 
> Get the 1/2" model, I purchased the 1" model originally but ended up taking out some stitching and removing a 1/2" layer of foam as it was to thick for proper stock mount.


I've got one of the Sims slip on recoil pads. I used it quite a bit at first and then took it off after getting used to the recoil. I only took it off because it made my length of pull a bit too long for a comfortable natural point of aim.

How does this shoulder strap do for decreasing recoil without getting in the way too much?


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

It adds a 1/2" between shoulder and butt so it can get in the way a little. Once you get used to it you'll like it. I use it as practice for hunting since most of the game I have shot was while wearing a backpack or at least bulkier clothes so I need to be able to get a good cheek weld with a little extra padding.

I think the pad is way better then any slip on recoil pad. Slip on pads have a lot of side flex where the shoulder pad is a nice solid base which seems to spread the recoil out over a greater area. It defiantly helps, all my buddy's kind of scoffed at the pad until they tried it and know when they set down at the bench the first thing they do is ask for my sissy pad, at least thats what I will call it in mixed company :mrgreen:.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I got it back!

I went back to the drawing board on a few things. Here's what I did:

1. Cleaned the hell out of my bore to remove the excess buildup that most likely occurred from not using anything other than mineral spirits (long story, and it's a bit embarrassing). I used a lot of Butch's bore shine, sweets, and CLR. I definitely don't plan on making the use of CLR a regular thing, but decided to try it out based on a couple of reports. It definitely removed an incredible amount of carbon fouling that quite a few repetitions of butches and sweets did not remove.

2. I checked my seating depth quite a few times and came to the conclusion that I was jamming my bullet into the lands quite a bit due to the error-prone method I used to figure out my seating depth a while back. I went from a coal of 3.335 to 3.287, which it should now be 0.015 off the lands. 

3. I did my shooting with my scope set on 9x, rather than 16 x. Even though my scope has The parallax adjustment, I feel like I might be able to shoot more accurately with my scope set on a lower power... Does this make sense to anyone? 


So, I decided to start over on my load development for the Sierra pro Hunter 150gr bullet and h4350 powder since I made these changes and also since the store was out of cci 200 primers and I had to go with federal gm210m primers.

Started with the load that was accurate for me before it went downhill and had pretty good results! Looks like my 57.2-57.8 band is still good


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

muddydogs said:


> Don't be afraid to be a sissy and use a sissy pad.https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Plu...sprefix=pact+shooting+,garden,188&sr=8-4&th=1
> 
> I can shoot a lot of rounds out of larger calibers with this pad on, really haven't found my limit yet but I do know that 10 to 15 rounds out of the 7mm before I got this pad was enough for the day. Friday I shot 40 rounds between the 7mm and 25-06 with no ill effect.
> 
> Get the 1/2" model, I purchased the 1" model originally but ended up taking out some stitching and removing a 1/2" layer of foam as it was to thick for proper stock mount.


I got one of these for my boy to wear/use and I ended up slipping it on under my hoodie the last time I went to the range to work through some loads and it made a huge difference. For lots of range shooting I'll be wearing it and just dealing with the glares and glances from the real men.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

derekp1999 said:


> muddydogs said:
> 
> 
> > Don't be afraid to be a sissy and use a sissy pad.https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Plu...sprefix=pact+shooting+,garden,188&sr=8-4&th=1
> ...


I think I'll be getting one at some point. I really like how well the Sims slip on softens the kick, but the increased length of pull and side to side instability part really bothers me.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I shoot the same rifle as you do, only in a 7mm. The best decision I ever made was getting a limb saver recoil pad. It made a world of difference. Your local Sportmans or Cabelas will have them in stock.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

I use Sweets 7.62 I never remove all the copper. theory leave it a little seasoned for the specific bullets you're shootin.


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