# DWR Convention email



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Yesterday I received an email from the DWR about this year's Big Game hunting application period opening Feb 1st, but most of the email was about the 200 Western Hunting & Conservation Expo permits with a link to the Expo website. I have concerns about this promotion of a private sector event by a government agency. Am I out of line?

And I definitely have issues with the Conservation permits themselves, more so with the OIL permits. I don't have that much of an issue with the LE because the Convention permits are just a small percentage of the permits available for those species, but of the total 200 permits, 1/2 of them are OIL permits. And that's a much higher percentage of those permits! For me, that's 100 bull moose permits (20 per year for 5 years) I don't have access to unless I go to the convention site, which is a 520 mile, $100 round trip. And have you seen the odds for those tags? Additionally, the $5.00 per app handling fee goes to the conservation organization and isn't made accountable to the DWR.

I know those tags are there to draw the crowds, but, it seems to me, at the expense of most of the hunters in Utah. Am I out of line here too?


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## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

I think your wise to take a closer look at the motivation of eliminating so many tags from the general pool.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> I have concerns about this promotion of a private sector event by a government agency. Am I out of line?


Absolutely my first thought as well... and everyone else I've talked to that got the email.

-DallanC


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

Not out of line at all! It is something that needs to be rectified. 

Do they need these tags to bring people to the convention? NO! OIL tag percentages are very low to begin with. When you take them out of the regular draw system you are stealing from hunters like us?

I wonder if this falls under the category of discrimination? Can I file a grievance? :roll:


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I was just waiting for this thread as soon as I got the email. I find several issues with this email, including them promoting it, so many tags as a % of the OIL, no accountability for the funds, etc.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

elkfromabove said:


> I have concerns about this promotion of a private sector event by a government agency. Am I out of line?


Couldn't agree more! Somewhat questionable legality IMO.



elkfromabove said:


> I definitely have issues with the Conservation permits themselves, more so with the OIL permits.


I do too, but as long as the current system exists, there is little that can be done about that except work and pressure the DWR/WB to change this.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

the email did point out that you can submit your name in the drawings outside of the convention center, without paying admission and going in. 

But yea. I'm not opposed to DWR sending out an email saying "you can get a tag here." I'm more opposed that they have to do that. I guess the upside is that at least our tags are being raffled at an event in our state. There are lots of tags from other states there as well, that were ripped from the residents of those states. So that pretty much sucks worse for them. Not that it makes us feel any better.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

BTW - here is a copy of the email. It is my email. They sent it to me. So I'm posting it with my permission. Though the same information is probably in a press release somewhere.



> Dear Utah Hunter,
> 
> The excitement of preparing for this year's hunting opportunities continues as the 2012 Big Game application period opens February 1st. In addition to what is offered through the state's traditional Big Game drawing, the Utah Wildlife Board also provides 200 Limited entry and Once-in-a-lifetime permits that can be obtained at the Western Hunting & Conservation Expo in Salt Lake City, February 9-12, 2012. These permits are unique in that you may apply for any of them you want, even if you are on a waiting period. You are required to validate your application in person outside the Hunt Expo but are not required to be a paid attendee of the Hunt Expo to apply or draw. To learn more-- and to apply for these permits, go to www.huntexpo.com/applyUDWR.php
> 
> ...


Thing that irks me - the subject line of the email is "ADDITIONAL DRAWING OPPORTUNITIES." Kind of like a guy asking you for five bucks and then using it to pay you the two dollars he owes you and wanting you to be happy about it.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> the email did point out that you can submit your name in the drawings outside of the convention center, without paying admission and going in.


That must be new, in years past you could buy them on line, but then had to go in to have them validated or you just made a donation with no chance of drawing; is this something new?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> > the email did point out that you can submit your name in the drawings outside of the convention center, without paying admission and going in.
> ...


No, you can still buy them online or at the booth in the foyer outside of the Convention rooms. The kicker for me is the validation. I live in Enoch (Cedar City) but I have 1 son and 2 daughters living in Magna, I son living in Salt Lake and another daughter living in Copperton and I would still have to make the 260 mile drive (one way) to validate my application. I guess it's just as well, 'cause I and all of the above will be in Disneyland that week. Shucks! I guess I'm not die-hard enough to deserve one of those tags anyway!


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I guess I could have read my email or Gary's post of his, so no change this year, but I see that you can go and just get validated without paying admission. I don't understand the need for validation, that just seems odd to me, I guess even the unscrupulous have to have some rules.


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## RBoomK (Feb 10, 2011)

Huge29 said:


> I don't understand the need for validation


Nothing more than a baiting tactic to lure you in.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

RBoomK said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand the need for validation
> ...


I thought it was to keep all the guides and outfitters from putting in for their clients while the clients stayed home. The validation does make it a little more fair for the local Utah resident.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Local, as in the guy living in Ogden, Tooele, Park City , or Provo? Or local Utahns as in the guy from St George, Monticello, Dutch John or Garden City?

They require validation in person because the idea was sold as an alternative to the "Arizona Debacle" a few years ago when the courts decided States could not discriminate non-residents through permit quotas, giving Non-residents and Residents the same odds of drawing a permit. Now that ruling has been overturned by a Federal Law, so there is no need for an alternative form of permit distribution. 

The Convention can not obtain the email addresses from the UDWR (unless you check the willing to share box), as the UDWR stopped distributing personal contact info 3 or 4 years ago. This email circumvents that policy.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

I like how they have put the do not reply listing on the email. :shock: 

"Please do not reply to this email as it will not be delivered to a recipient."

I may not reply to them, but I sure can reply to the people who can and should do something about this. Governor, Senators, and Rep's.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Our wildlife officials using their positions to benefit a private enterprise? I refuse to believe it! 

I've heard hundreds of comments about the expo tags over the past few years. Most people say the whole scenario is bogus and the tags need to be put back into the drawing. A smaller but significant group of people doesn't seem to care where the money goes, they just like having the additional opportunity to draw a tag. Virtually nobody is happy with the whole arrangement. I feel the winds of change on this one. You can't have a 1% satisfaction index and expect it to last. I would be in favor of returning the tags to the drawing or putting the expo tags back into the hands of the state for their own raffle. I have big time reservations about shoveling money into the expo tags right now because I know where that money is going. It is going to lobby against the common sportsman, in favor of the wealthy trophy hunting crowd. If I knew the money was going to legitimate conservation projects, overseen by DWR biologists and personnel, I would participate much more freely.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

El Matador said:


> Our wildlife officials using their positions to benefit a private enterprise? I refuse to believe it!
> 
> I've heard hundreds of comments about the expo tags over the past few years. Most people say the whole scenario is bogus and the tags need to be put back into the drawing. A smaller but significant group of people doesn't seem to care where the money goes, they just like having the additional opportunity to draw a tag. Virtually nobody is happy with the whole arrangement. I feel the winds of change on this one. You can't have a 1% satisfaction index and expect it to last. I would be in favor of returning the tags to the drawing or putting the expo tags back into the hands of the state for their own raffle. I have big time reservations about shoveling money into the expo tags right now because I know where that money is going. It is going to lobby against the common sportsman, in favor of the wealthy trophy hunting crowd. If I knew the money was going to legitimate conservation projects, overseen by DWR biologists and personnel, I would participate much more freely.


Another thing most of you probably don't realize is that, in addition to the $5 Convention application handling fees, and the *$1,708,750* they got auctioning off the Conservation tags, the Convention and Conservation organizations are also making money off of the permits in a secondary manner and none of that money is accountable. In 2009, SFW received *$578,592* from Credit Card Processor Inc. for processing credit cards, *$659,917* for fundraising (mostly banquet tickets) where the tag auctions are the draw, and *$992,074* from the Convention tickets and convention clothing and gear. In addition, they received *$61,619* from investments with West Rim Capital Partners out of Lehi, *$70,978* from foreign currency exchange (Canadian? Mexican?) and *$43,391* from Arctic Red River Outfitters out of Alaska. It isn't just the permits, folks, but all the surrounding stuff they are tied to. And that doesn't count the non-permit related income, ie: *$1,003,035* in contributions and grants, *$39,912* in bank interest and dividends.

Of course all of that doesn't count the expenses related to the above incomes, but the the bottom line is that in 2009 SFW took in $5,500,579 and spent $4,474,193 (including $396,849 in salaries and $1,545,009 in wildlife projects), leaving $1,026,486 in surplus for the year 2009. When that is added to the surpluses of previous years and to the nonliquid assets (land, buildings, machinery, equipment), their total assets amounted to $7,322,401 at the end of 2009. Of that amount, $4,865,827 was used that year to purchase land which means that amount changed from a liquid asset to a nonliquid asset. I'm still working on the amount of land, location, prior ownership, and whether or not the hunting public will have access to it. I will update when I get that info.

I haven't dug into the 990's of the MDF, RMEF, etc. but I would probably find similar info, though on a smaller scale, or not! It's a mess for sure and it's being dumped on all of us.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Thing that irks me - the subject line of the email is "ADDITIONAL DRAWING OPPORTUNITIES." Kind of like a guy asking you for five bucks and then using it to pay you the two dollars he owes you and wanting you to be happy about it.


Ah, you're just being negative......right goofy?

I remember when the convention was in the planning stages, the stated purpose, which I am NOT saying is the same as the actual purpose(s), of the applications needing to be validated at the Expo was to draw more people to the Expo. That is how it was presented to the State Legislature. I wouldn't apply for these permits when if I lived 1 block away from the Salt Palace, so distance isn't a factor for me, but for all those clamoring for 'fairness' this should reek!!


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Yep. Travel and tourism. It's supposed to bring in revenue to local business. Hotels, restaurants etc.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I know one thing WE have decided,, Are family is going to take full advantage of this
ADDITIONAL DRAWING OPPRERTUNITY this year....Just planed a trip to SLC on 2/10
this morning!!!! WERE BEING POSSITIVE about it,,and will positively draw a tag


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I've decided to take my $440 that I used to spend every year and give it the next parolee that walks out of the state pen. Hopefully it makes a positive influence on his life. I have faith that he'll purchase food, maybe some nice dress clothes for future job interviews. Heck, I'm crossing my fingers that he may go out and judiciously hand it out to homeless folk while using part of it to buy fixins for sandwiches to give them. On the other hand, maybe he'll spend the money on advertising for a clothing drive for less fortunate children and battered women at the shelter. On the other hand (I know, that's a lot of hands. My mother must have been a drinker) maybe I'll be a little more discriminatory and interview a few of them as they walk out of the razor wire laden playground and find someone who is a bit more literary. Think of what he could do for the world. Maybe teach people to spell and read? That stuff is free. He could purchase a wagon to haul around Dr. Seuss books that he rented from the library, maybe enroll fellow parolees in his vision?

I'm getting excited about all the good that this person is gonna do. Who's with me? It could change the world........

Oh wait, then my money wouldn't be going towards conservation and there wouldn't be any guarantees he would be using the money for food, or to teach people to read. He may just go out and buy heroin and cheap ladies. 

Maybe I will just go apply at the expo. Oh wait.........

I'm in a pickle!


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I know one thing WE have decided,, Are family is going to take full advantage of this
> ADDITIONAL DRAWING OPPRERTUNITY this year....Just planed a trip to SLC on 2/10
> this morning!!!! WERE BEING POSSITIVE about it,,and will positively draw a tag


It is good to finally see something optimistic in your posts. :lol:


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> I know one thing WE have decided,, Are family is going to take full advantage of this
> ADDITIONAL DRAWING OPPRERTUNITY this year....Just planed a trip to SLC on 2/10
> this morning!!!! WERE BEING POSSITIVE about it,,and will positively draw a tag


Of course you will! Do us a favor, though, and tell us how much it costs you in application handling fees. And FWIW, I'm happy to see that you are still willing to hunt some Utah big game, even though the general hunts suck.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Goofy,
Spot on! More opportunity to draw a OIL or LE than the regular draw. The family enjoys it and it's great to see friends!

The expo is successful for what it was intended for. That's why the governor just extended it out! Hope to see you all there.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> Goofy,
> Spot on! More opportunity to draw a OIL or LE than the regular draw. The family enjoys it and it's great to see friends!
> 
> The expo is successful for what it was intended for. That's why the governor just extended it out! Hope to see you all there.


Ah, but you are ignoring all the hidden costs, the LOST opportunity due to fewer permits being available to the general public through the DWR draw. The LOST opportunity due to artificially high male:female rations of deer/elk/sheep/goats/moose/pronghorns, that take from the many so that a 'lucky' few can enjoy such 'limited resources'. Coupled with the conservation permit program, there is LESS opportunity for the average Utah resident hunter, NOT more. It is all smoke and mirrors and sunshine blown up our pie holes. That is spin that the current regime occupying the Oval Office would be proud of. They tell us the economy is improving, that there is more 'equality' than ever.....and they use doctored, cherry-picked stats to 'prove it'. I have to hand it to SFW and the politicians running it, they can spin with anyone, including veteran lobbyists in DC. And no, that is NOT a compliment! I have no problem with having an expo, or raising money for wildlife, but I do have a problem when only a VERY select few directly benefit, and the VAST majority of Utahans, and specifically Utah hunters pay for it. You 'optimistic' fellers remind me of a great line in one of my Top Five movies of all time; "Don't pi55 down my back and tell me its raining!"


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> "Don't pi55 down my back and tell me its raining!"


 -_O- A great movie and that line couldn't be any better suited to the topic at hand! I'm guessing there will be three kinds of suns at this expo: Sunshine, sunflowers, and sons of *******. I'll bet if Josie Wales were around today he'd be a member of UWC.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I just use the money I would flush down that toilet to out if state tags where I earn bonus points. Guess what looks like the buckmaster will be guaranteed an elk tag in Arizona next year. Kids will have a tag when I feel there old enough to invest my time hunting there.

I might go to the expo but won't waste abuck dime on the sewer draw.


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## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Yep. Travel and tourism. It's supposed to bring in revenue to local business. Hotels, restaurants etc.


I think you hit it on the head, right here Tree. Tourism is big business in this state. And most anything that generates a lot of TAX revenue, is popular on capitol hill. And will continue to be popular until the cash cow dries up. The only way to put those tags back in the general pool is to not show up.

Numbers can be stronger than greed and corruption.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Oh how this site cracks me up. The Coast to Coast of wildlife forums. o-||


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## cacherinthewry (Dec 20, 2007)

pkred said:


> I think you hit it on the head, right here Tree. Tourism is big business in this state. And most anything that generates a lot of TAX revenue, is popular on capitol hill. And will continue to be popular until the cash cow dries up. The only way to put those tags back in the general pool is to not show up. Numbers can be stronger than greed and corruption.


Much more important than generating sales tax revenue, this event generates LOBBYING DOLLARS. Don't kid yourself on tourism being more important to SFW and our "representatives" than palm grease.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

pkred said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. Travel and tourism. It's supposed to bring in revenue to local business. Hotels, restaurants etc.
> ...


If the tag winners are in proportion to the attendees, then here's some big tourism numbers to spin. In 2011 there were 199 convention tags; 23 (11.5%) of them went to non-residents, while 176 (88.5%) of them went to Utahns. Of those 176, 6 of them went to Southern Utahns, 19 of them went to Central Utahns, 3 of them went to Utahns north of the Wasatch Front, 4 of them went to Heber Valley, 4 of them went to Morgan Valley, 6 of them went to Tooele Valley, 17 of them went the Uintah Basin and 117 (59%) of them went to Utahns on the Wasatch Front. Probably not much tourism from the Wasatch Front, Morgan Valley, Tooele Valley or Heber Valley attendees. And since I own a home in Magna that one of my daughters is living in and I also have 4 other children and numerous in-laws in Salt Lake County, you wouldn't get many tourism dollars from this tourist even if I went. I suspect that's true of most Utahns.

And, while the Convention brings them Other Staters and their money in, by the same token, the out of state tags, vendors and outfitters take Utahns and their money out.

Spin away! or Not!


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## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

I'm not interested in nickle and dime'n about what people are doing with the expendable income. I'm angry that the general deer hunt is ending in Utah. I'm angry that I don't know if I will have a deer tag this year. I enjoy hunting the extended because it's across the valley from me. I'm new to hunting and chose the bow so I could have as much opportunity as possible to hunt. I have had a lot of fun and made some great memories in the few short years I have been hunting. But due to Utah now being a LE state for deer, It's a crap shoot to see if I will be able to hunt.

It doesn't take rocket scientist to figure out what is going to happen with point creep and the new unit system. You want a sneak peek look at our current limited entry draw point system. And all this on the premise that is makes biological scene. Or its going to explode the Deer herd to 400,00 in three years. I call BS! Why isn't anyone talking about improving highway crossing or subsidizing deer who have been displaced from there winter range, or summer range for that matter.

So sorry elkfromabove, I don't want to argue about whatever you were tiring to get across in your last post. I got some politicians and special interest groups to despise first.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

pkred said:


> I'm not interested in nickle and dime'n about what people are doing with the expendable income. I'm angry that the general deer hunt is ending in Utah. I'm angry that I don't know if I will have a deer tag this year. I enjoy hunting the extended because it's across the valley from me. I'm new to hunting and chose the bow so I could have as much opportunity as possible to hunt. I have had a lot of fun and made some great memories in the few short years I have been hunting. But due to Utah now being a LE state for deer, It's a crap shoot to see if I will be able to hunt.
> 
> It doesn't take rocket scientist to figure out what is going to happen with point creep and the new unit system. You want a sneak peek look at our current limited entry draw point system. And all this on the premise that is makes biological scene. Or its going to explode the Deer herd to 400,00 in three years. I call BS! Why isn't anyone talking about improving highway crossing or subsidizing deer who have been displaced from there winter range, or summer range for that matter.
> 
> So sorry elkfromabove, I don't want to argue about whatever you were tiring to get across in your last post. I got some politicians and special interest groups to despise first.


Nothing to be sorry about! We're on the same page, just different paragraphs. The RACs and Wildlife Board (and DWR) have been heavily influenced by conservation and convention groups (SFW, MDF, RMEF, others) who have the most to gain ($, power, more trophies and fewer hunters) by manipulating the decisions that are made. Thus, they are the bulk of the RAC and WB meeting attendees and are considered to be the 'public' that the RACs, WB, and DWR always refer to. The vast majority of Utah hunters, the real public, are not represented and are always placed on the back burner when these decisions are made. Frankly, that's why I never joined any of them, and why I ended up becoming an active member of UWC. No-one gets placed on the back burners. And be assured, if UWC goes down the same road the others have gone, I'll bail.

My point was that tourist dollars is a lame excuse for taking 500 OIL tags (and 500 LE tags) out of the public draw and giving them to groups who's agendas are not the same as the vast majority of Utah hunters.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> I've decided to take my $440 that I used to spend every year and give it the next parolee that walks out of the state pen. Hopefully it makes a positive influence on his life.


Taking money away from one criminal and giving it to another? I don't see how that will help -Ov-


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Oh to see so clearly!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> Oh to see so clearly!


Thanks, just had lasik eye surgery, 20/20 vision. 8) :mrgreen:


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Never needed it 20/10! _(O)_


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Had 20/10 until last year, age catches up to everyone.....even those who are so 'enlightened' as Muley73........


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

If you like the email the division sent out then you must really like what you see at the bottom of the DWR's home page.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

OMG,,,BULL,,,, :shock: :shock:

I clicked on it,,,,,,took me straight to this.http://www.huntexpo.com/

Sure looks like the DWR, SFW, Expo stuff are pretty tight...


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

+1 Goofy!!! 

Looks like the DWR is liking the results they are seeing from the Expo. With the tags being given for another 5 yrs by the governor and the DWR publicly supporting the Expo it must be having a positive effect for the state. 

Somebody please explain to me how the Expo tags are taking oppurtunity to draw rather than adding oppurtunity? I love the fact that I get to actually have a chance to draw on multiple species on multiple units!!!!!

LONG LIVE THE EXPO!!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> +1 Goofy!!!
> 
> Looks like the DWR is liking the results they are seeing from the Expo. With the tags being given for another 5 yrs by the governor and the DWR publicly supporting the Expo it must be having a positive effect for the state.
> 
> ...


Naaa, not too long...


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

stillhunterman said:


> Muley73 said:
> 
> 
> > +1 Goofy!!!
> ...


Good answer SHM ......They will never get that it's not about the tags but about the corruption, money and power.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> Somebody please explain to me how the Expo tags are taking oppurtunity to draw rather than adding oppurtunity? I love the fact that I get to actually have a chance to draw on multiple species on multiple units!!!!!


When the expo was established, tags were taken from the general draw, and allocated to the expo. These are not NEW tags that became available. They did not ADD to the number. Tags were TAKEN out of the regular drawings and allocated solely to the expo. So there are 200 FEWER tags available through the regular draw. That means 200 fewer opportunities.

You do make a point however, that by attending the expo, you can apply for multiple species on multiple units. That is true, and allows GREATER opportunity to draw for various tags for those attending the expo.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Muley73 said:
> 
> 
> > Somebody please explain to me how the Expo tags are taking oppurtunity to draw rather than adding oppurtunity? I love the fact that I get to actually have a chance to draw on multiple species on multiple units!!!!!
> ...


But even your last statement is somewhat not true, because the odds are horrendous to draw these tags.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> +1 Goofy!!!
> 
> Looks like the DWR is liking the results they are seeing from the Expo. With the tags being given for another 5 yrs by the governor and the DWR publicly supporting the Expo it must be having a positive effect for the state.
> 
> ...


Yes, they're liking the results just like they're liking the 30 unit hunting system, the increased buck to doe ratios, the cut in permits, the loss of revenue, the increased work load, the past 4 year salary freeze, and all the other things imposed upon them by the Wildlife Board, the Governor and the Utah Legislators. They are under a mandate to support the Convention regardless of the consequences, just like they are under a mandate to support Option #2 which they opposed!

As far as it having a positive effect on the state, I guess it depends on who you talk to and your definition of positive effect. Some folks who happen to live on the Wasatch Front, especially in the Salt Lake Valley, will benefit much more than those of us who live in Iron County. And SFW and MDF (and others) will certainly benefit as will the owners of the Salt Palace, the parking lots, the local fast food establishments, the celebrities, and the Convention vendors (some of which don't even live in this state). And the politicians who openly support it will likely gather some votes. Yes, it does have a positive effect on the 'state' as long as you don't count me or any of my neighbors.

To answer your last request for an explanation, all I have to do is state my situation. I have 12 points for bull moose and I'm getting close to the max in the public unit I apply for. There are currently 12 public units that have moose tags (not counting CWMU's) and there are 20 Convention bull moose tags this year that were taken out of the public draw. Remember, the Convention tags are not additional tags and by replacing the 1 or 2 tags that have been taken out for the Convention, you would increase the opportunity in that unit substantially. Additionally, I can apply at home and can use my points. Not so with Convention tags 'cause with those tags, points don't matter and it'll cost me $100 in gas just to validate my application without any guarantee of even getting the tag. Yes, I know if I really wanted to get that tag, I should be willing to spend the time and money to apply, but why would I have to do that if I didn't need to?

And here's another thing! Anyone can apply for and draw those Convention moose tags, even someone who has already had an OIL moose tag because waiting periods don't matter, even the OIL 'waiting period'. This same rule applies to the Conservation tags except, there, if you've got the money, you can hunt Utah bull moose, (and/or bison, sheep, goats, elk, deer, pronghorn, turkeys, cougar, or bear) every year for the rest of your life! In other words, the removal of those two types of tags from the public draw and allowing hunters to double-dip, reduces the number of tags I have access to.

Overall, I guess you could argue that it doesn't reduce opportunities because every tag is awarded to someone, but using that approach, it certainly doesn't create additional opportunities either. The same number of tags are simply shifted from one type of draw to another. It's only on an individual basis that it's a reduced or added opportunity, and on that basis it becomes very biased in favor of a select group of hunters at the expense of the majority of Utah hunters and that's unfortunate, IMHO, of course.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> IMHO, of course.


I agree 100% with your HO. Well said.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> Looks like the DWR is liking the results they are seeing from the Expo. With the tags being given for another 5 yrs by the governor and the DWR publicly supporting the Expo it must be having a positive effect for the state.


I have to say, your optimism, in a FEW selected areas, is amazing. Notice I said; selected areas, as there are plenty you are extremely pessimistic on. The DWR is STUCK with the Expo circus, so they have to milk it for what's worth. And to be honest, can you say your assertion of their liking the Expo is due to biological reasons, or is it monetary reasons? Because, I don't care what they think when it comes to monetary views, they aren't economists. I want to know what they think from a biological standpoint, and little/nothing else. As for the Governor, are you saying EVERY policy he makes, that he stands by is good, and assured of having a positive effect for the state?



Muley73 said:


> Somebody please explain to me how the Expo tags are taking oppurtunity to draw rather than adding oppurtunity? I love the fact that I get to actually have a chance to draw on multiple species on multiple units!!!!!


 I admit to once buying into this 'reasoning', until I actually looked at the data/facts. elkfromabove mentioned the _negative_ impact it has on those wishing to draw moose, and I can point to how it limits me on bighorn sheep. I have more points than anyone that has put in for the Stansbury unit both years, but because they only give one permit to the public, along with one at the Expo, it is a lottery for me, so I just keep buying points. In fact, ridgetop drew that unit with several FEWER points than I have two years ago, and he took a smoker of a ram. And, although they have less impact on the total permits issued for LE units than the conservation permits do, they still reduce the opportunities by MORE than the 200 permits. In order to attract demand for the permits, the number of permits to the public are stifled, far more than warranted for 'quality'. The new elk plan that was adopted last year had raised harvest age objectives, and that was for in reality ONE reason, to garner more interest (which means more money) for the conservation and convention permits. Rationing permits artificially drives up the demand, basic economics. So, I can see you are no better of a source on economics that the biologists at the DWR......



Muley73 said:


> LONG LIVE THE EXPO!!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


 Since the two primary groups benefiting from the Expo have yet to be transparent as to where the funds obtained from the sale of these convention permits, I have to wonder why you are such a supporter of it. Yes, I realize you like being able to apply for multiple species, and multiple units, but your odds are about as good as driving to Malad and buying a powerball ticket.......which is for people who suck at math......math and economics..not your strengths.
:O•-:


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Another thought, with all of the recent tag cuts, how many conservation and expo tags have been cut? The same percentage?


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

jahan said:


> Another thought, with all of the recent tag cuts, how many conservation and expo tags have been cut? The same percentage?


That sure was funny. Good one!


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

I sent an inquiry to the DWR about this "advertising campaign", and received this response:



> Hi Mr. Colvin,
> 
> When the Wildlife Board approved the 200 convention permits about 6 years ago, they wanted to ensure that a couple of issues were addressed. First, they wanted to ensure the draw processes would be conducted fairly, and second that the public would still be made aware of the opportunities for these permits that come from the total annual quota. To address these concerns of the Wildlife Board the Division has requested the State of Utah, Dept of Technology services review the application processes, program coding, and participate when the draw is conducted to ensure agreed upon processes are complied with. The Division also agreed to support the Convention (Hunt-Expo) in marketing the expo. The DWR does not spend any cash on direct marketing but has helped by sending an email making hunters aware of the 200 permits at the expo, we have also put a link on the DWR website, and haved helped with other minor efforts to promote the show. We have a Help Stop Poaching booth and also an Outreach booth at the hunt expo (and at many other shows annually).
> 
> ...


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

El Matador said:


> I sent an inquiry to the DWR about this "advertising campaign", and received this response:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said, they have a mandate!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

The loss of tags does hurt those with max or close to max points. I will agree with that. However that is a very small number when compared to number of sportsmen that now have an oppurtunity to apply for those tags. 

My math is just fine. No Expo tags means zero chance on all but one unit and one species for OIL and one unit and one chance on the others....ZERO chance!!!!!! With the Expo tags I DO HAVE a chance to draw, yes it is a low chance but it is a oppurtunity I would not get without the Expo. Just because you dont agree with my stance does not mean my math is weak.

elkfromabove,
As far as 12 points for moose. Wow you are off by a few years. Probably not in the Max points draw on most, if any units! So it is really not effecting you personally that much. Again maybe not the math that you wanted to hear about, correct math none the same. I tell you what though if you put in for the Cache Unit for moose and draw I'll spend the summer scouting and bust my butt to find you a great bull!!!

The DWR being manadated to support the Expo. Well I guess it that makes you feel better then go ahead and believe that. Either way I got a great laugh out of seeing the email and DWR home page. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

A couple more points here,,,
The permits are set up so the majority of them come from the 10% non-res pool..

I'm pretty sure that's why Packouts numbers on the other thread are not jiving..
I know they were calculated taking Non-res permits instead of resident permits some how.

And EFA, hate to be the bearer of bad new,,,,But,
12 points is at least 10 years out of the bonus tags on East canyon for moose.....
I've studied this 'moose thing' till my eye are falling out!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> And EFA, hate to be the barrier of bad new,,,,


 -_O-


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> A couple more points here,,,
> The permits are set up so the majority of them come from the 10% non-res pool..


R657-55-3. Wildlife Convention Permit Allocation.

(1) The Wildlife Board may allocate wildlife convention permits by May 1 of the year preceding the wildlife convention.

(2) Wildlife convention permits shall be issued as a single series to one conservation organization.

(3) *The number of wildlife convention permits authorized by the Wildlife Board shall be based on:*

(a) the species population trend, size, and distribution to protect the long-term health of the population;

(b) the hunting and viewing opportunity for the general public, both short and long term; and

(c)* a percentage of the permits available to nonresidents in the annual big game drawings matched by a proportionate number of resident permits.*

(4) Wildlife convention permits, including special nonresident convention permits, shall not exceed 200 total permits.

(5) Wildlife convention permits designated for the convention each year shall be deducted from the number of public drawing permits.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Nice Snotty. Me likee when a guy has his ducks in a row...and proof to back it up. 

I won't put my money in the hat there because I don't feel the DWR (please read: Division of Wildlife Resources - not Wildlife Board) is not getting a fair cut of the profit from auctioned tags, CWMU permit allocations, etc. besides the fact that I don't like the direction the WB has been led by special interest groups (read special $ grubbing groups).


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Bullsnot, thanks for doing the research before pipping off. I wish others would do the same thing. Sometimes they quote figures without even reading them. Geez.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > A couple more points here,,,
> ...


And here is the explanation for were your $5 application fee gos.....
http://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/fact_sheet ... rences.pdf

"The conservation groups that host this annual event
and conduct the drawing collect a $5 fee for each application to pay for the expo and hunt-drawing
costs (e.g., convention center, drawing contractor, advertising). If any additional funds remain, the
groups use the money to support and promote wildlife. The DWR receives the revenue from the
permit fees. In 2012, there will be 200 convention permits in the expo drawing."


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> The number of permits from the non-res pool is coming from %10 pool,
> Then that number of permits are matched from the resident pool of 90%....
> It works out to far less resident permits.And fewer non-res permits in the regular draw
> AND the OIAL permit that are offered to non-res only, are strait out of non-res pool.


The key word in the tag allocations rule is "proportionate". In other words if the normal allocation is a 90%/10% as you mentioned then they will take 1 tag from the non-res pool and 9 tags from the resident pool. Proportionate amounts are taken from each pool.

If traditionally the allocation in the public draw for a hunt is 5% non res and 95% percent is res then 1 tag will come from the non-res pool and 19 will come from the res pool for expo tags.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> "The conservation groups that host this annual event
> and conduct the drawing collect a $5 fee for each application to pay for the expo and hunt-drawing
> costs (e.g., convention center, drawing contractor, advertising). If any additional funds remain, the
> groups use the money to support and promote wildlife.


Per division rule R657-55 the purpose of the program is "*for purposes of generating revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities and attracting a regional or national wildlife convention to Utah*"

There was an audit done in 2010. Here is where some of the money went. You be the judge if it fits the intended purpose. Certainly some good causes on the list, but wildilife conservation? Keep in mind of the 3.4 million raised in the first four years only 800k was even accounted for by expo organizers in the audit. In fairness and for the sake of full disclosure about 500k of the 3.4 million did seem to go to good wildlife projects but they are vague in description.

$117,671 - Wolf Litigation/ Washington DC Policy 
$21,000 - Donation to Cancer Patients 
$20,000 - Orem Pritchett/Tatloil Gift
$14,000 - Jessica Clark Scholarship Fund 
$14,000 - Edwards-Beaver Property
$11,000 - Kevin Conway Scholarship Fund 
$10,000 - Chance Phelps Endowment Fund 
$5,450 - Wyoming/Pinedale 
$5,000 - SFW Wyoming 
$5,000 - St George Livestock 
$5,000 - Eye Donation 
$5,000 - Deputy Josie Greathouse 
$3,000 - Sean Pearson Cancer

On the tag allocations. Straight from the audit, "...data was reviewed related comparing the number of resident applicants versus non-resident applicants....The numbers for the cumulative first four years of the convention are 82.3% residents applying and 83.9% of successful applicants being residents. Because 75% of the 200 permits were originally transferred from the resident drawing hunts that are conducted by the division, the residents notices a slight advantage over non-residents of about 7%"

So there is a slight advantage for residents as far as the number of tags taken from the resident pool compared to what they draw but it's minimal.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Yep, looks like money well spent to me. Good on 'em for putting it back into our wildlife and on the ground...


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

bullsnot said:


> ..... they are vague in description.
> 
> $117,671 - Wolf Litigation/ Washington DC Policy - Wildlife =
> $21,000 - Donation to Cancer Patients - Wildlife =  Cancer =
> ...


Don't get me wrong guys these are great causes but they are not wildlife focused. The Jessica Clark scholarship funds students of wildlife biology, the Chance Phelps Endowment provides camping opportunities for wounded soldiers. I am not ure how the rest ties to wildlife. Again I am not knocking this just pointing out my observations.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Well dang it! Forgot to put up the lil guy :roll: to show the intent of my post... :mrgreen:


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> bullsnot said:
> 
> 
> > ..... they are vague in description.
> ...


+1


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

At least it give us normal little guys a (very small) chance at the special tags, instead of ALL of them going to highest bid out of our/my reach. It's all about the money anymore anyway.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

2full said:


> At least it give us normal little guys who live on the Wasatch Front and/or can afford the time and money to get to the Salt Palace a (very small) chance at the special tags, instead of ALL of them going to highest bid out of our/my reach. It's all about the money anymore anyway.


There, I fixed it for ya.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

2full said:


> At least it give us normal little guys a (very small) chance at the *special tags*, instead of ALL of them going to highest bid out of our/my reach. It's all about the money anymore anyway.


Sorry to be the bearer of bad new but there is nothing special about them. They are regular tags. They want you think they are special and looks like you bought the idea.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Lets not say that they are really a special tag but for those that have a little bit more discretionary money to spend just another chance at drawing a coveted tag.  I wouldn't mind throwing a extra $20.00 their way for a couple of chances but since you need to GO to the event to be verified that isn't going to happen for me and a lot of other hunters that would throw that money their way because of the distance that they need to travel. It is a lot like playing the lottery outside of Utah. Your chances of winning are slim to non exsistant but people like to play it, but the nice thing about the lottery is that you don't need to show up at the service station to be verified. You can have a friend buy your ticket for you and still have a chance to win it.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

2full said:


> At least it give us normal little guys a (very small) chance at the special tags, instead of ALL of them going to highest bid out of our/my reach. It's all about the money anymore anyway.


The thing is if these tags were left in the regular draw you'd have better odds at drawing those tags in the regular draw and the UDWR wouldn't be out a single penny.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Just my personal opinion but I don't have a problem with the expo tags in concept. It does give folks another shot at tags, the fees are cheap, and the concept of raising money for wildlife is a good one. I simply want to see the program work as it was intended to do....and that is to see the lions share of the money raised to go back on the ground to Utah wildlife as was stated in WB meetings would be the end result by expo organizers who asked for the tags. That's what was promised and I simply want to see that happen.

In the first 4 years of the expo 3.4 million was raised. Only 800k has been accounted for and some of those funds have questionable Utah wildlife benefit. An additional 2.6 million in that timeframe remains unaccounted for. Show me a mojority goes back to Utah wildlife and I'm good with the whole thing.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

bullsnot said:


> 2full said:
> 
> 
> > At least it give us normal little guys a (very small) chance at the special tags, instead of ALL of them going to highest bid out of our/my reach. It's all about the money anymore anyway.
> ...


But since it isn't going to change anytime soon wouldn't it be better if they just opened it up to a online service to where everyone that wanted to could buy a chance at the tag that they wanted?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Critter said:


> But since it isn't going to change anytime soon wouldn't it be better if they just opened it up to a online service to where everyone that wanted to could buy a chance at the tag that they wanted?


YES!! I love this idea as long as the money raised was used as was intended.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> Just my personal opinion but I don't have a problem with the expo tags in concept. It does give folks another shot at tags, the fees are cheap, and the concept of raising money for wildlife is a good one.


Kris, reading this sent a chill down my spine! Please reevaluate your thoughts on this.........or I fear the demise of UWC is in short order...... -)O(-


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

proutdoors said:


> bullsnot said:
> 
> 
> > Just my personal opinion but I don't have a problem with the expo tags in concept. It does give folks another shot at tags, the fees are cheap, and the concept of raising money for wildlife is a good one.
> ...


Bart, my opinion is just a personal opinion and not that of UWC's. I don't decide what stance UWC takes on issues, UWC members do.

I think we are more on the same page anyway about this issue than you may think. The UWC wants to first and foremost see that the purpose of having the expo tags is being carried out. The lions share of the money generated should go back to Utah wildlife and that is something I think we can all agree on.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

The convention tags generate a lot of emotion and controversy, that's for sure. Opinions abound, and for those who are aware of what is actually going on, those opinions are very emotional. That being said, I will give my own two cents on this issue.

I do not like the convention tags whatsoever. They may have been instituted initially to draw folks to the expo so that the conservation tags could be auctioned off with a larger crowd attending, but I don't see that is a needed incentive at this point. Bull is definately right about the money being spent where it was promised, but with nothing in writing to specify that promise, it is all arbritrary now. I detest the financializing of our wildlife. It goes against the North American Wildlife Conservation Model, which I believe in. It always seems that when big money is on the table, it's our wildlife and general hunters and fishermen who bare the brunt of its-for lack of a better word-evil nature. I'll stop at that... :shock:


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

I don't have a problem with the expo tags "in concept" either. But in reality I have to agree with stillhunterman. That original agreement has been totally breached and the entrusted tags have been abused. The expo tags either need to go back into the general pool or put into the hands of a trustworthy organization. 

Here's an idea: Get rid of the "expo" tags entirely. Then take all the conservation tags we have now (324) and divide them into 2 groups. One half to be distributed like they are now, the other half to be raffled off by the DWR at the expo of their choice. Applications could be $5 in person or $7 online to encourage expo attendance but not require it. Something like this would keep all of the state's financial benefits intact and return 200 tags to the public drawing. It would also make the raffle tags accessible to everyone. Of course I would get 10% commission because it's my idea.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The convention tags,,,and rules were just extended thru 2016......

next chance for changing things will be 2017.....

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meeting ... -05-07.pdf


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

This document is marked as a proposal. Do we know if it has or has not been officially approved?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> This document is marked as a proposal. Do we know if it has or has not been officially approved?


Page 4, Item 8
Approved unanimously.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meeting ... -10-01.pdf


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> MadHunter said:
> 
> 
> > This document is marked as a proposal. Do we know if it has or has not been officially approved?
> ...


Dated October 1, 2009. Goofy, do have anything that isn't 3 years old that says it's been approved unanimously?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Sorry, thought I pull up the 2011 document the first time,,,,,,,but it was 09.

here's the 2011,,,page 3 , item 11........Same result.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meeting ... -08-18.pdf


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

It doesn't come as much of a surprise that the expo tags have already been approved for 2012. The expo is this week. If the right strings are pulled and enough people want them gone, the expo tags will disappear. To quote from Young Frankenstein, "IT COULD WORK!!!!"


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

El Matador said:


> It doesn't come as much of a surprise that the expo tags have already been approved for 2012. The expo is this week. If the right strings are pulled and enough people want them gone, the expo tags will disappear. To quote from Young Frankenstein, "IT COULD WORK!!!!"


There appoved through 2016......


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

We all know 5 year plans are about as solid as a bowl of baby food. Don't let the 2016 number get in the way......


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I would bet that if we looked at the threads about this same subject from previous years it would be the same people saying the same things word for word. I simply choose not to waste my time writing my part.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> I would bet that if we looked at the threads about this same subject from previous years it would be the same people saying the same things word for word. I simply choose not to waste my time writing my part.


I hope you didn't wager too much.....as I was all for them in the beginning. 

Here is my take, anytime you take from one and give to another, the results WILL be bad. And spin it however you want to, but the convention tags AND the conservation tags is merely taking from one and giving to another, and the deciding factor is MONEY. Always, always follow the money! That this is approved for five years, which means nada, is of no surprise, as the government does DUMB things on a regular basis, and mostly because of an addiction to money/power.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Bart, You are a good egg!!!


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> I would bet that if we looked at the threads about this same subject from previous years it would be the same people saying the same things word for word. I simply choose not to waste my time writing my part.


Yea I feel for you, it's hard to defend an organization thats full of a bunch of lying thieving shysters.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> Bart, You are a good egg!!!


Thank you, Scott! You're a good egg as well, a little cracked, but.......


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > Bart, You are a good egg!!!
> ...


I couldn't find the "Like" button.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> I know one thing WE have decided,, Are family is going to take full advantage of this
> ADDITIONAL DRAWING OPPRERTUNITY this year....Just planed a trip to SLC on 2/10
> this morning!!!! WERE BEING POSSITIVE about it,,and will positively draw a tag


So, which tag/tags did you draw and how much did to have to pay to get them?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

EFA,,None of our immediate family drew expo tags  ....

BUT I've got some good friends that did!!  

Now we'll just have to wait on all the other draws to see how
it fits into the hunting schedule for sure...


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> EFA,,None of our immediate family drew expo tags  ....
> 
> BUT I've got some good friends that did!!
> 
> ...


Maybe next Expo, huh? Meanwhile, good luck in the other draws. We may get you back hunting Utah's general hunts, yet!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > EFA,,None of our immediate family drew expo tags  ....
> ...


EFA,,I must say, I HONASTLY applaud your efforts , and what you stand for!

I was out raged in the early 90s when the "big" winter kill hit and I felt helpless..

At that time, I was a BIG general season type guy.............

The fate that fell to me shortly after changed my life forever..
Began guiding and it surly impacted my life and changed how I approach hunting.

Many years of being able to hunt the very best stuff does have an effect..
And seeing deer herds decline without changes is hard some times.
BUT, I do have hope and optimism that things will change in the coming years
on our general season units..... :O||:


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