# No retrieval of Big Game by ATV’s



## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

I recently found out that the Uinta National Forest no longer allows hunters to receive downed game by ATV off of approved ATV roads. yea! finally.

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in the Big Game forum or how new this law is, but I thought it would be pertinent to the Big Game discussion and certainly try to get it into the publics mind of the changes that are occuring, I know it's been discussed a little in the Outdoors section of this forum.

See poster: http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/uinta/local-res ... poster.jpg

This should help limit the out of control new user trails that keep popping up everywhere on the forest.


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## inbowrange (Sep 11, 2007)

-*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- *(())* *(())* *(())* *(())* I think they should almost band them for the days or weeks of the hunt but we know that wont happen.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

That rule is at least several years old. Personally I think it is usually more work to get an ATV to a downed elk than just to bone it out and pack it out. I also think that retrieving downed anamals with ATVs really doesn't cause that much inviornmental damage. One ATV track is hardly noticable. But repeatedly "driving down the ridge" to get to your favorite hunting site makes a new trail very quickly.


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## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

Yes, one time doesn't hurt it too bad, but when another ATV user comes by and see's the tracks left by the 1st person then he/she will think "hmm...I guess that's an atv trail" then they take it and it quickly turns into a big dust trail. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that this rule was passed in 2006, but I couldn't remember for sure, so it's been around for a couple years at least, but I hadn't ever heard of it, so I figured there were many like me out there that needed that extra piece of information that many were longing to hear.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

flinger said:


> Yes, one time doesn't hurt it too bad, but when another ATV user comes by and see's the tracks left by the 1st person then he/she will think "hmm...I guess that's an atv trail" then they take it and it quickly turns into a big dust trail. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that this rule was passed in 2006, but I couldn't remember for sure, so it's been around for a couple years at least, but I hadn't ever heard of it, so I figured there were many like me out there that needed that extra piece of information that many were longing to hear.


You are correct, once someone sees the tracks they are likely to follow them making a 'new' trail on every ridge. This is a no brainer, as far as I am concerned.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

> I think they should almost band them for the days or weeks of the hunt


Why push the people that use them the right way from using them when there hunting ? We use oure bikes to get to place we would not want to take a truck.We stay on the roads that are made for atv's and we dont take them to get down game we wil drag them out or cut them in half.We all so watch other ATVER'S and if they do soemthing there not spost to we will turn them in and we have done that befor. It every year somebody brings up atver's and it geting old. It the same thing every time. They should just a band them. WHY should they band them ? By the that law is a couple years old. They only way you can take your atv off the road to get down game is to get a primt saying that you can use you atv to get down game. You have to show them prof that you have a health proublom. Like a dr note. I dont like the people that take there bikes down a draw to watch a canyon or to get there game out. We all have to keep are eye open and watch for these kind of people and turn them in. We are the ones that have to patrol when we are out there for this kind of stuff.


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## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

> It every year somebody brings up atver's and it geting old.


Since when was old always a bad thing? What comes with age? wisdom? security?...bigger antlers?? :!:


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

it is funny that my atv can cause such an uproar but the dude with 4x4 and chains can take that off road without a word being said, now im not one for just tearing up the land but lets get real not all of us who use atv's to recover our game destroy the ground or make idiots follow a set of tracks.


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## nochawk (Oct 26, 2007)

I thought that it was always the law...only state that allows game retreaval is AZ...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bossloader said:


> it is funny that my atv can cause such an uproar but the dude with 4x4 and chains can take that off road without a word being said, now im not one for just tearing up the land but lets get real not all of us who use atv's to recover our game destroy the ground or make idiots follow a set of tracks.


But, since there are idiots out there that would follow your tracks from retrieving your animal, laws are put into place to minimize the damage done OFF ROAD. And I don't give a rip what type of vehicle it is, it MUST stay on approved roads/trails! You can't honestly say that using an ATV to retrieve game leaves 'no trace', therefore it should NOT be allowed. Enforcement is already hard enough, why complicate it more than it already is?


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## CUT-EM (Dec 19, 2007)

Yah, your rig must remain not only on approved roads but right in the middle of them,you know so nobody else can get by.Oh yah dont forget to put your sign up tellin everybody what youre doin there.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

CUT-EM said:


> Yah, your rig must remain not only on approved roads but right in the middle of them,you know so nobody else can get by.Oh yah dont forget to put your sign up tellin everybody what youre doin there.


And......don't forget to have the helicopter fueled up. :roll:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

This law went into affect 9/24/2003 on the Uinta disterict.


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## callofthewild (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> CUT-EM said:
> 
> 
> > Yah, your rig must remain not only on approved roads but right in the middle of them,you know so nobody else can get by.Oh yah dont forget to put your sign up tellin everybody what youre doin there.
> ...


please tell me that you have one of those on standby........


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

callofthewild said:


> And......don't forget to have the helicopter fueled up. :roll:


please tell me that you have one of those on standby........[/quote]**** straight!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

While riders following a previous track is definitely the main problem, it's also true that a single rider can do a lot of damage, depending on his path, his machine and how he rides. Add the variable of an extra load on the machine and that makes a difference, too. That's especially true when we remember that not all damage is readily apparent, such as the destruction of aquatics when somebody decides that the path of least resistence is to run up a stream bed. Other damage isn't appreciated for weeks or months later, such as erosion effect.

However, I think the obvious culprit here that most of us fail to recognize is numbers. 180,000 ATVs registered last year and over 200,000 will register this year and that doesn't include non-residents who show up each year in significant numbers in southern Utah. That's a force to be reckoned with, eh?

Of that number, the majority are responsible riders BUT a big percentage of them are uninformed. The most common point of ignorance is that ATV travel is prohibited everywhere except where specifically allowed. The majority of ATV riders believe just the reverse - that OHV travel is allowed on any dirt surface except where specifically prohibited.

Irresponsible riders, (i.e. vandals), are being addressed. But given the numbers, we can't continue to ignore the uninformed riders. Since previous attempts to inform have obviously had limited success and since we're now allowing ATVs on some paved surfaces, I think it's time to license ATV riders. As an ATV rider myself, I'm not real happy about that prospect. But I don't see another option.


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## inbowrange (Sep 11, 2007)

I think they need to find a better way to inforce the laws!


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

> And I don't give a rip what type of vehicle it is, it MUST stay on approved roads/trails!


This statement is spot on. I hate the irresponsible ATVers just as much as the next guy, but we need to realize that many ATVers ride responsible. Personally, I use my ATV during hunting season on approved roads to avoid beating my truck up. It really bothers me when people call for an all out ban on ATVs, because there is absolutely no reason to ban responsible ATV use, just the same as there is no reason to ban responsible use of a 4x4 truck, SUV, Subaru Outback, or any other variety of offroad vehicle.


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## RobK (Jul 3, 2008)

I recently found out that the Uinta National Forest no longer allows hunters to receive downed game by ATV off of approved ATV roads. yea! finally

Never should have been off approved ATV roads before !!! :roll:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

inbowrange said:


> -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- -*|*- *(())* *(())* *(())* *(())* I think they should almost band them for the days or weeks of the hunt but we know that wont happen.


Why not? Sounds like a good plan to me. That's the way it is in WY. You can use them to pre-season scout but when the hunt is open you gotta walk. All trails are closed to ATV use. I hope they do this in UT as well. I'm sick and tired of seeing ATV tracks everywhere I go in the woods. It's ridiculous!


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I want one of the ATV *bands* for my call lanyard.... I've seen duck and goose bands but the ATV's they track with these bands must truly be something special. Anyone got the numbers by make, model, size and location on the banding efforts?

Just poking a little fun folks. :lol:


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

I have just a slightly diffrent angle, yes the hunter himself may be resposible, and not drive off road. However its his kids he allows to race around on and off road! going full speed around blind corners and generaly causing unsafe situations,(not saying adults dont do this as well) . but little 7 or 8 yr kid on a full size quad racing around un checked. No helmet, No gear,( going to get some moron on here saying"i did for years, i turned out fine") In my opinion is just a bad idea. For some strange reason people get on the mountain and think anything goes, instead of using common sense he or she may posses in their everyday lives, go out campin, huntin, fishin, and have a brain drain, at a time where extra caution is prudent.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

Mytake, if we can't blame guns for killing people, we can't blame atv's for tearing up the mountains! 


it all comes from the idiot who has control!

blame the people not the invention.


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## rugerdogdog (Nov 18, 2007)

AZ is the only state that allows this??????
It's LEGAL on the Manti within 150 feet of a road!!! -()/- o-||


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

bossloader said:


> Mytake, if we can't blame guns for killing people, we can't blame atv's for tearing up the mountains!
> 
> it all comes from the idiot who has control!
> 
> blame the people not the invention.


Outstanding idea :!: , that SHOULD be applied to all problems.


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## 4x4 Bronco (Sep 7, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> bossloader said:
> 
> 
> > Mytake, if we can't blame guns for killing people, we can't blame atv's for tearing up the mountains!
> ...


I agree as well. ATVs serve purposes. We just need to weed out the people who don't use them resposibily not ban them all because of a few idiots.


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## Bow Mama (May 1, 2008)

bossloader said:


> Mytake, if we can't blame guns for killing people, we can't blame atv's for tearing up the mountains!
> 
> it all comes from the idiot who has control!
> 
> blame the people not the invention.


I agree 1000% !!


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

nochawk said:


> I thought that it was always the law...only state that allows game retreaval is AZ...


Me too. I guess it doesn't matter to me anyway, because where I've had to retrieve game from there ain't gonna be no ATV anyway.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

bossloader said:


> My take, if we can't blame guns for killing people, we can't blame atv's for tearing up the mountains!
> 
> it all comes from the idiot who has control!
> 
> blame the people not the invention.


+3!

I chuckle to myself at how many of you guys are calling for the atv's to be banned; the verbiage sounds almost word for word out of the anti gun literature; at least bossloader appears to be consistent! Those calling for a ban may want to give it more thought about what other laws you want to have passed resulting in one more freedom gone. Just think about it, any defense of that is pretty pathetic; there are more than enough rules and laws as it isl I am amazed to see second amendment supporters calling for more rules and less freedom; let's be consistent and support enforcement not more rules and laws that generally only negatively effect those who already obey the rules, focus on the real problem, not what a few may view as the symptom. Before, the calls start, I do not even own an atv and very rarely use them.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> bossloader said:
> 
> 
> > My take, if we can't blame guns for killing people, we can't blame atv's for tearing up the mountains!
> ...


Very well stated.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

many opposers of ATVs are horseman, and I say since some horseman don't feed their horses certified hay they should ban horses on public land. the weeds a horse can spread can have catastrophic effects for many years to come. I don't have any problems if someone that is in poor heath needs a little help retrieving a downed animal if they tread lightly!!!

I really don't have any problem with horseman, but they need to see the that their sport is without its flaws to. you cant punish an entire group of sportsman for the acts of a few bad eggs because anywhere you go you can find someone that doesnt play by the rules.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

ATVs are allready "banned" everywhere but on approved roads and trails. This is the jist of this thread is it not? So how would you further "ban" them durring hunting season. If you ban ATVs during hunting season it makes sense to also ban Jeeps, 4x4 pickups, SUVs, recreational vehicles and as ramrod pointed out horses. Also hunters with big feet.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

I wondered how long it would take until someone would bring up horses. Comparing the two is ridiculous. Unless you watched where I rode you would not know I was even there. Certified hay is a joke just another way for the government to make more money. Do you know the difference between certified and non-certified hay? Its fifty cents to buy the tag to tie on a bale, its the same hay! No horseman spends roughly two hundred bucks a ton to buy weeds, and a farmer wants to make a maximum profit so he does all he can to kill off water guzziling weeds. Do you really think horse owners care so little that they would feed their animals junk? I am not buying hay that is full of thistle and foxtail or feeding haylow in nutritional value. You buy the best and feed less. Most guys just give me the tags when I need them.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I have to agree with Gh2 on the horse topic. Spot on.

As for the atv issue. If atv users do not clean up their act, and that includes reigning in the abusers, they will see major closures in the future. Out here in Tooele County the sheriff is cracking down and charging abusers with vandalism, it's about time. Those who use atv's MUST report the abusers, otherwise all WILL be punished. I have been on the DWR OHV committee, while the committee has NO desire to close roads/trails, if something isn't done by the riders themselves, the access WILL become limited. I use atv's every year, in fact just last weekend as myself and four good friends were scouting for the archery season we came across SEVERAL tracks going past the road closed signs, tracks through the middle of meadows, and that was w/o looking for it. I WILL report anyone I catch abusing the land with ANY kind of motorized vehicle.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

I had to take care of something so I couldn't finish my post. I also own ATVs and ride the heck out of them, much more than my horses and don't want to see either banned or restricted further. Pro just basically wrote what I was going to post and I completely agree with him, its up to us to police ourselves the rangers can't be everywhere. I sometimes wonder if most that( break the laws just don't know them, or if people are just really stupid? Earlier this summer I watched a family go up a trail that was closed, well supposed to be. Someone before them had torn the poles away from the road but the sign still read closed. I talked to them later and they said the gates were open so they thought it was a opened trail. They were new to ATVs and I believed them and we talked about trails in that area. I have always thought there should be a mandatory class on ATVs that should be completed before the registration is issued. Not the riding class but a day of class room stuff showing damaged areas just teaching the rules ect..


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

campfire said:


> ......................................................................................................If you ban ATVs during hunting season it makes sense to also ban Jeeps, 4x4 pickups, SUVs, recreational vehicles and as ramrod pointed out horses. Also hunters with big feet.


Yes, anything over size 11 for men, 9 for women and we're gonna have to come up with some sort of pro-rated system for adolescents.

Handicapped and those over 57 are exempt.

Just kiddin'; Pro is right, many of the ATV guys, especially here in southwest Wyoming, are setting a terrible example for the others. And in today's society the judicial system doesn't punish offenders, it just takes their priviledges away.

In my own selfish way I can't thank them enough for getting some fabulous deer habitat closed off to *all* vehicle use. It's a pleasure to hunt something close to home out of a day pack instead of a motor vehicle. Kinda feel sorry for the handicapped and senior citizens though.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

many people think if ATVs are banned their would not be so many people in the field, if that happens there will be just that many more trucks in the mountains and some of those people will travel off road also I was up hunting a few years ago and seen a jeep up on top a mountain not close to any roads this weekend I seen tire tracks off road not sure if it was a jeep or truck, ATVs cause a lot less damage to the trails and roads than trucks if used properly. and the horseman that are still against them well I wish I had the money and property for a horse I would much rather ride a horse in. some of them have the attitude that they should be the only ones who get to enjoy some of Utah's back country and everyone else that is not as fortunate should be banned to city life


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

I happen to be one of those guys, all of you stay off my mountain!! My mountain is defined as the boulder then north to hwy 6 and 89 to 10 south back to the boulder, the only exception to you being on MY mountain is bring me beer and not cheap beer either ie,, Pabst Natural Lite, matter of fact no light beer period or Corona. Please adhere to these boundaries and regulations.

Ramrod we know other forms of transportation cause problems too, but its a numbers thingey. There are more ATVs in the hills than trucks jeeps horses tricycles unicycles or tobogans. That's why the finger is pointed their direction.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

When all is said and done, I think we are all saying essentially the same thing. IT IS UP TO SPORTSMEN TO POLICE OURSELVES. I agree with Po but add that it is up to not only ATVers to police other ATVers but up to all outdoorsmen to police offenders of the law. As I mentioned, ATVs are allready restricted to approved roads and trails. This is not the problem. The problem is the allready illegal use of ATVs and other off road vehicles. If present laws are not inforced further laws that are not inforced punish only law abiding sportsmen that obey the law out of respect for the law rather than fear of punishment. This type of law is unjust. I honestly believe the majority of ATVers are conscientious but a very few selfish ones are undoubtedly threatening the recreation opportunities of the rest of us. It is up to ALL OF US to do our part.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Further thought. Archery season is fast approching. As I mentioned, ATVs are allready restricted to approved roads and trails. Some have suggest further restrictions such as "banning ATVs durring hunting season". Would that mean closing
APPROVED roads and trails? I jokingly mentioned closing the mountains to all vehicles but seriously, do ATVs cause more envoronmental damage to roads than 4x4 pickups in the mud and snow with chains on? Would we then close all fishing streams, hicking trails, biking trails and camping sites? Fishermen, hikers, bikers, campers, sightseers, AND ATVERS all have just as much right to be in the mountains and enjoy the resources as do hunters. This is particularly applicable durring archery season because there are still so many other recreationists sharring the mountains. We hunters sometimes see things with tunnel vision seeing only those things that annoy us in the persuit of our personal recreation passions. But as Pro pointed out, the good old days of having the mountains to ourselves are gone forever. If we hunters are to preserve our rights and freedoms to hunt we also have to learn to respect those who enjoy the outdoors for other reasons so long as they obey the laws and respect the environment AS WE SHOULD AS WELL and learn to share the mountains with them. If ATVs annoy you, lace up you boots and get away from the roads and trails. If you find ATVs where they are allready illegal, report them, but don't complain.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I have to agree with Gh2 on the horse topic. Spot on.
> 
> As for the atv issue. If atv users do not clean up their act, and that includes reigning in the abusers, they will see major closures in the future. Out here in Tooele County the sheriff is cracking down and charging abusers with vandalism, it's about time. Those who use atv's MUST report the abusers, otherwise all WILL be punished. I have been on the DWR OHV committee, while the committee has NO desire to close roads/trails, if something isn't done by the riders themselves, the access WILL become limited. I use atv's every year, in fact just last weekend as myself and four good friends were scouting for the archery season we came across SEVERAL tracks going past the road closed signs, tracks through the middle of meadows, and that was w/o looking for it. I WILL report anyone I catch abusing the land with ANY kind of motorized vehicle.


That is a HOMERUN!

The only thing I can add is that if you do come across a wheeler where it shouldn't be, report it, and by all means, do NOT vandalize it.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

My issue with the Forest Service ban on ATVs is not allowing them on certain dirt roads in the area that are open to "vehicle" traffic. These aren't highways but they do not allow ATVs. A couple roads in particular are roads around Co-op creek/Currant Creek, and the road from Timpanooke around the north side of Timp. I don't even ride ATVs but it seems completely assnine to ban them from those dirt roads.

I also could see a lawsuit (possibly class action) invovling the Disability Act where "reasonable" accomodations have to be made for people with disabilities.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

The Uinta Forest is paticularly guilty of closing roads to ATVs that are otherwise open to full size vehicles. There are some high traffic, relative high speed, gravel graded roads where safety might be an issue. In this case I can see at least some reasonable rationale for ATV closer. But there are some roads that are 4x4 mountain roads that are still open to full size vehicles but not ATVs. This just does not make any sense what so ever. :?:


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

There seems to be a point that most are missing. Hunters that use ATV's are a small percentage of the overall number of ATV users. So if you ban ATV's during the hunt what does that accomplish? Doesn't make sense, hillbilly will just take his jeep where he wants instead. I see more problems with the banshees and motorcycles than anything. I think Pro said it best and we need to just police our selfs. Pro in your committee you ought to try and make it easier to bust ATV users that aren't following the rules. Some kind of identification so that you can write down or take a picture of it so that you can turn them in. Where I ride I don't have cellphone reception, that is something else to keep in mind. I could have turned in many people, but how do I do it when there is no cellphone reception. When I get off the mountain do I call and say a red Polaris was off a trail, that narrows it down. Just something to think about. Thanks.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

jahan said:


> Pro in your committee you ought to try and make it easier to bust ATV users that aren't following the rules. Some kind of identification so that you can write down or take a picture of it so that you can turn them in. Where I ride I don't have cellphone reception, that is something else to keep in mind. I could have turned in many people, but how do I do it when there is no cellphone reception. When I get off the mountain do I call and say a red Polaris was off a trail, that narrows it down. Just something to think about. Thanks.


We are looking at ways to make it easier to identify each OHV, something like a license plate. We are also looking at setting up a hotline similar to poaching hotline.

You are also correct, only a small percentage of OHV users are hunters and in the hills during hunting seasons. That is why this needs to address ALL abusers not just the ones who hunt. There are three things that are being looked at: 1)Education, make people aware of the laws/rules and why they are in place. 2)Enforcement, make it easier to turn people in, and once they have been reported have a way to punish the abusers. 3)Deterrent, make the punishment(s) steep enough to keep people from breaking the laws with stiff fines, possible vehicle loss, misdemeanor charges. Tooele County is now charging caught offenders with misdemeanor vandalism charges, about **** time!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > Pro in your committee you ought to try and make it easier to bust ATV users that aren't following the rules. Some kind of identification so that you can write down or take a picture of it so that you can turn them in. Where I ride I don't have cellphone reception, that is something else to keep in mind. I could have turned in many people, but how do I do it when there is no cellphone reception. When I get off the mountain do I call and say a red Polaris was off a trail, that narrows it down. Just something to think about. Thanks.
> ...


Excellent post, thanks for the response. I like the way you guys are going.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

I have been thinking about this post today, I know some people would like to see ATVs banned because of a few bad apples and that got me thinking whats next? banning guns because some people misuse them.


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## Califbowmen (Jul 1, 2008)

It's not just ATV users that go cross country. We have had a problem for the last 2 seasons with hunters either on ATV or in 4x4 trucks going around the closed road markers and parking their vehicles down in the bottom of a canyon, ravine or even on top of a ridge and then hunt. We caught several and were told that they were too tired to walk down or up to where they wanted to hunt. All of the offenders were from the local area. The Law Enforcement is practically none existent where I hunt and when I did finally see someone to report it to, I was informed that the Officer had to personally observe the infraction. Being a Retired Peace Officer, I at least would have let the lawbreakers know that their actions have been reported.


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## PlantMAN (Oct 26, 2007)

Side by Sides can be a problem also. Most if not all Forest Service *trails* are built for a 50' or smaller wheel base. During the 4th of July I saw a few people that should have gotten tickets for taking there Side by Sides threw the bottom of Chalk Creek. Everyone should pick up a travel map for the forest where they are.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

campfire said:


> But there are some roads that are 4x4 mountain roads that are still open to full size vehicles but not ATVs. This just does not make any sense what so ever. :?:


Yes, it does. I asked USFS about this and got a couple sensible reasons. In some areas, there are campgrounds adjacent to the closed roads. Without restrictions, the noise and dust can make camping pretty unpleasant for everybody else. But more often, closures to ATVs are due to past history in the area where ATV riders have blazed new trails from the road. In other words, use of the road would have been okay if ATV users would stay on the road, but they have demonstrated their unwillingness to do so. So the only way to prevent continued misuse is to prohibit any use at all. That's the pattern.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> campfire said:
> 
> 
> > But there are some roads that are 4x4 mountain roads that are still open to full size vehicles but not ATVs. This just does not make any sense what so ever. :?:
> ...


there, clear as mud. punishing all for the actions of a few is rediculous and unfair :!: sounds like an excuse to close an area they wanted closed inthe first place.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Longgun, what do YOU suggest to fix the actions of a few, that would be 'fair'? Aren't ALL required to wear seat belts, go certain speeds because of a few bonehead auto drivers? Aren't we ALL required to have insurance for autos because of the actions of a few? I don't like complete bans either, but don't blame anyone but the MORONS who feel entitled to do whatever they want wherever they want whenever they want. If ALL do not demand/take action themselves, those put in charge of the land WILL.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

When you're out in the mountains and seeing this reckless behavior then why aren't you writing down the numbers on the machine that all ATVs must have now. Its like a license plate on a ATV. Maybe you should take some pictures. Sometimes people need to resort into being jerks and turning people in or else everyone loses. We have caught many riders in the wilderness areas around Nebo.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I agree with you, Longgun. It isn't fair. That's exactly what happens when people are irresponsible - someone else has to deal with the consequences.

I don't know about you, but I've had a belly full of paying the price for the illegal actions of other riders. The blame lies with them - not the appointed land stewards.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> When you're out in the mountains and seeing this reckless behavior then why aren't you *writing down the numbers on the machine that all ATVs must have now*. Its like a license plate on a ATV. Maybe you should take some pictures. Sometimes people need to resort into being jerks and turning people in or else everyone loses. We have caught many riders in the wilderness areas around Nebo.


There is not such a thing that I am aware of. :? For one year you had to put the numbers on then the next year they got rid of it. There is a big assumption here also and that is that it is registered. It is crazy how many people do not register their rigs. I agree with you though we need to take actions, we just need a better way of doing it, like little license plates and a lot of the ideas Pro and Finn have been talking about.


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## dunn_gary (Sep 11, 2007)

Jerks will be jerks, no matter what they drive. A few years ago, my wife and I went up to Willard Peak, as she had never been up there before. Many are familiar with the pond that is up there. Well, some @$$ hole with a 4WD pickup was running back and forth through the north side of the pond, his wife and young kid with him. Back and forth, muddying up the water, leaving deep tire tracks in the mud. Some ATV drivers are bad, some 4WD truck drivers are bad, some hikers are bad, some hunters are bad. So let's ban them all because of the bad ones! No ATVers, 4WDers, Hunters, Hikers. Come on, if we are going to argue, let's find something worth arguing about!


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

dunn_gary said:


> Jerks will be jerks, no matter what they drive. A few years ago, my wife and I went up to Willard Peak, as she had never been up there before. Many are familiar with the pond that is up there. Well, some @$$ hole with a 4WD pickup was running back and forth through the north side of the pond, his wife and young kid with him. Back and forth, muddying up the water, leaving deep tire tracks in the mud. Some ATV drivers are bad, some 4WD truck drivers are bad, some hikers are bad, some hunters are bad. So let's ban them all because of the bad ones! No ATVers, 4WDers, Hunters, Hikers. Come on, if we are going to argue, let's find something worth arguing about!


You forgot horses and helicopters.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> campfire said:
> 
> 
> > But there are some roads that are 4x4 mountain roads that are still open to full size vehicles but not ATVs. This just does not make any sense what so ever. :?:
> ...


Sorry for the delay, I have been out of town for a few days and I think that this subject has been hashed enough. But this has never prevented me from expressing my thoughts before nor will it now. I have heard this rationale from the FS before and here are my thoughts. At present it is illegal to ride my ATV up the Lambert Hollow road but it IS legal to drive my diesel pickup up that same road. Does my pickup create less noise and dust than my ATV? I will answer my own question, NO, perhaps some ATVs but not mine. Someone brought up the issue of numbers in this thread. But as far as THE LAW is concerned, it is illegal to drive a single ATV up Lambert Hollow but it IS LEGAL to drive a convoy of jeeps and pickups up the same road right past anyone camped in the meadow at the bottom. It is allready illegal to take any vehicle off of approved roads and trails. If it is not possible to inforce illegal ATV trafic off the Lambert Hollow road how will illegal ATV trafic ON the Lambert Hollow road be inforced? At present, the only ATV trafic on the Lambert Hollow road is either those who are not aware that ATVs are not allowed there ( as the only signage indicating this closure is a small plastic sign with pictures on it, there may be some of these) AND those who intentionally disreguard the regulations. Just what is to stop the latter from taking ATVs OFF that road? So, closing the Lambert Hollow road to ATVs while keeping it open to full size vehicles accomplished NOTHING except to penalize those who would obey the law out of respect for the law, the same people who would respect and obey the law and convine travel to the road were it open to ATV use. IMHO closing the Lambert Hollow road to ATV use while keeping it open to full size vehicles still makes no sense and I still am still critical of such practice.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

campfire, here's the deal. They didn't just ban ATV's for the heck of it. You may be a decent rider, but apparently too many were/are NOT. So, all are punished for the actions of a few. Now, if the many had got the few to knock it off w/o closing the place of to atv's, you would be able to still ride there. Put the blame where it belongs, which is on BOTH the abusers and those who ALLOW the abuse to take place. Where I camp/hunt, I do NOT tolerate abuse. If I see it, I STOP it. I do NOT turn a blind eye and go on my way. Why, because I like to use my atv's, and I'll be damned if I will let some turd take that away from me. :evil: Apathy is as much to blame as anything here.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Setting aside some decisions on individual routes/roads here, and back to the question on use of ATVs for big game retrieval. The logic that is used to disallow it is that off-road travel is off-road travel, regardless of the reason. Taking off from the trail to pick up your deer has the same result as taking off from the trail to photograph a butterfly, see over the ridge, set off fireworks, or whatever other reason you want. Off trail is off trail. The vegetation doesn't get torn up less because you have a good excuse - it is all the same.


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## Firstarrow (Sep 28, 2007)

One of the misconceptions I was sold as an ATV owner was that the ATV is lower impact.

After years of driving / riding, I beg to differ. I believe that the ATV is in fact much higher impact on our roads and trails than pick ups.

First you have your jerks in all walks of life that abuse the resource. But I won't go in to that.
Second the ATV took the next step where the old day jeeps left off. They have allowed more people, to more frequently access both remote & not so remote areas. (read increased use & traffic).
Third IMO the low tire pressure of the ATV's displace dirt fairly quickly. Look at the two tracks and the amount of dirt dished up where the tires go. Also I've seen regular road areas that have been fairly good for years. Lately they get worse and worse. The low pressure tires of the ATV have pushed the dirt away from the rocks, exposing large rocks on the road.

This is definetly a good topic, one that needs continued discussion & education.

Best to you all,
Rich


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Firstarrow,
I both agree and disagree. When talking about roads used by both ATVs and full size vehicles (not encludding gravel graded roads which are not effected) each inconviences the other because of the different wheelbases. Two tracks become three tracks and where ruts are deep either the ATV wheel base or the full size wheelbase does not match. But as far as total impact is concerned I really think ATVs have less impact than full size vehicles. I think I can buy what you said about displacing soil exposing rocks but rocky roads do not errode nearly as much as clay roads. And the only thing that displacing a little soil does is make the road a little rougher and less dusty. But roads devoid of rocks when wet get deeply rutted and I am convinced that heavier full size vehicles with narrower, higher pressure tires particularly spinning with chains on create much deeper ruts than ATVs do. Then runnoff runs down the ruts cutting them even deeper. I think this is the greater impact on mountain roads. I drive both ATVs and my full size pickup extensively "off highway" and I am convinced that full size vehicles have more impact on mountain roads than ATVs.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

My Question is if fourwheeler do more damge then full size trucks. Why do they have sings that say closed to full size trucks from nov 1 to may 31. Open year round to Ohv? There a road we go on and it got turn up so bad from trucks going up it and took the road out because they made some big ruts and then they started to go around the trees and made a nother road. The atv did not do that. So you can say that atv ruin the roads. they dont make the ruts like the trucks do.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Firstarrow said:


> One of the misconceptions I was sold as an ATV owner was that the ATV is lower impact.
> 
> After years of driving / riding, I beg to differ. I believe that the ATV is in fact much higher impact on our roads and trails than pick ups.
> 
> ...


I disagree... For the area that I ride, hunt and fish the ATV only has improved the travel 10 fold. I had for years bumped along as anyone else in the truck on the same trails, at times needing mud tires and even chains. From the time they closed it off I have noticed the areas where in the past the road was begining to sluff off into the river now is stable. I can agree that the low presure tires do make an impact, but if it is a simple two track we are above the curve in protecting the land. Also adding is that I belive that the tires and how aggressive the tread is helps that also!

I love me ATV! but something that chaps me arse is when you come to a mud hole in the road and everyone goes around it! And really this is not just an ATV thing people do it in the trucks also.... MUD IS SEXY!


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## Firstarrow (Sep 28, 2007)

TAK said:


> Firstarrow said:
> 
> 
> > One of the misconceptions I was sold as an ATV owner was that the ATV is lower impact.
> ...


I love my ATV as well. It is honestly really nice to take my wheeler to a trail head instead of beating my truck to get there.

My concerns are noted above in bold.

Increased access by the whole world, not just hunters. This increased access and increased numbers does have a negative impact on trails, habitats and animals. With the increase of people comes the increase of "rogue trails". Those trails where someone initially wanted to see where a ridge goes, to see the view or to retrieve an animal, where others follow. I believe there is a misconception / justification "if someone else has been there, then it must be OK".

Glad we can agree on the low tire deal. It does hurt roads.

That brings up the last thing, old road closures. There are roads that get closed for different reasons. The one that irkes me the most is the closure of roads that do not get regular maintenance.


dkhntrdstn said:


> My Question is if fourwheeler do more damge then full size trucks. *Why do they have sings that say closed to full size trucks from nov 1 to may 31.* Open year round to Ohv? There a road we go on and it got turn up so bad from trucks going up it and took the road out because they made some big ruts and then they started to go around the trees and made a nother road. The atv did not do that. So you can say that atv ruin the roads. they dont make the ruts like the trucks do.


In our area (northern Utah) the signs say closed to over the road vehicles (this includes 4 wheelers). My understanding is that the closure is two fold: 1) to decrease the erosion (read digging) of the roads; the second is to help wildlife during some critical periods.

ATV's like other 4wd vehicles do go around ruts and do create other roads.

Here is an idea, what if individuals voluntered to repair / maintain / groom (adopt) roads and trails during the November through May closure period. People could donate time, equipment, etc to keep roads open. IMO this may be key to keep those "OLD TIME" roads open and usable.

Like I said earlier, good discussion!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

FA.. I am finding that there is a few groups in my area that does maintian and cleans trails. I was really taken that it was a group made up of DIRT BIKERS! Not saying a bad thing about them, but I never really new they did such a thing.
My comment about area I ride and the ground being unstable. Well before when trucks could go into the area, a river crossing was at best hard to make, but many along with myself made it. I am as guilty as the next rutting up the road with the truck to get to a location. Since the wheeler access only, there is no ruts, digging, what-so-ever. Me believe this is a good thing!
I have talked this over with some friends that I hunt with about the low presure tires, one brought up that he did not believe it but did add that when it is muddy and snowy is when the most damage is done. He said if you watch a wheeler go down the road you see that the tires collect the mud and because of the tread design it deposits the mud just out of the track building the high sides. So year after year use you get your tracks deeper. I had dug up some pictures of a hunt I was on so many years ago of me truck with chains on the front and clumps of mud on the windshield and hood. I worried if I would make it out, now days I don't have that worry and I feel I do less to the trail.

I do agree 100% with the making of new trails. What gripps me is closing of trails that had been there before most the "Road Closer Heads" had the job to close the roads. That is where I see people most violate the closure signs.

It is no secrete I enjoy the use of a wheeler for hunting and play, and I think they are here to stay no matter what. I too think we need more inforcement, but I also think that by creating more laws and closing areas that have been open since the dirt was layed there is the wrong direction to be taking.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

TAK said:


> It is no secrete I enjoy the use of a wheeler for hunting and play, and I think they are here to stay no matter what. I too think we need more inforcement, but I also think that by creating more laws and closing areas that have been open since the dirt was layed there is the wrong direction to be taking.


That is exactly why the OHV committee has no desire to make more/new laws/restrictions. The committee wants to EDUCATE users on the CURRENT laws and why they are in place, ENFORCE existing laws, and DETER abuse through fines/penalties. The 'powers that be' say they only have been closing roads that were NEVER approved to begin with, they likely where blazed by someone who felt like it would be a good place to head out on.

But, believe me when I say, that if we as users don't clean up our actions, total closures WILL happen. We can't keep abusing the land for our pleasure at the expense of ALL public land users, we must be good stewards of the land and how we enjoy that land. Racing up and down the road making lots of noise/dust is NOT how to be a good steward, neither is going off approved roads/trails. If the trail is not CLEARLY marked as open to travel, it is best to assume it is CLOSED.


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## mulepacker (Sep 11, 2007)

The brand I prefer is the mule, no better ATV IMO. So far I haven't found anywhere it can't go, or that I won't take it. Now if fuel wasn't so expensive!! :wink:


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> The 'powers that be' say they only have been closing roads that were NEVER approved to begin with, they likely where blazed by someone who felt like it would be a good place to head out on.


I guess it is possible this is the case... Possible but talking to folks that had been going upon some of the roads I talk about said that they had been there before the biggining of time.... And the very roads I talk about were once roads taken by trucks

Again knowing what I do know, the signs that they are placing out to restrict this really does not stop the travel. My opinion is if they are going to close the road, then they need to reclaim the road. I do know that many that see something that is closed and reclaimed will most likely not travel it. In the past I have seen that they had closed a road, made berms and reseeded the area.


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