# Trophy fish POACHER one of our own??



## PBH

http://wildlife.utah.gov/law/pdf2/sr_trophy_fish.pdf

ARE YOU SERIOUS??!! 
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/outdoors/5 ... n.html.csp

I can't believe it. This guy is constantly posting his trophy catches on numerous websites -- AND HE'S BEEN DOING IT ILLEGALLY!! It makes me wonder just how many deer he's killed, and how many fish he's caught illegally?

This should infuriate every angler in Utah. This arrogant angler has been POACHING from every licensed angler in the state. Worse yet, he's been bragging about his illegal catches?

I certainly hope the State throws the book at this POACHER. I hope he get's his fishing privileges taken away in Utah, just like his hunting status currently his. Obviously, based on his current situation, restricting his hunting/fishing privileges isn't going to stop this POACHER from poaching. He'll continue to POACH -- so I would urge and encourage all of you to keep your eyes out for this clown.

Fishing with an expired license
Hunting suspension for illegal killing of trophy deer
vandalism
spotlighting with a weapon in posession
illegal purchase of combination license
violation of suspension order
wanton destruction of protected wildlife
no license

Which reminds me....isn't there a certain post on BFT from a Fish Lake report where a certain someone mentioned that he caught some fish just recently? Maybe he bought a valid fishing license -- I hope it get's taken away SOON!


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## Dodger

Links are broken PBH.

And they're back.

I'm disappointed to hear this. I remember back on the old DWR forum discussing Fish Lake tactics with this person before and after he caught a very nice lake trout down there. While I believe he is innocent until he is proven guilty, I think there is compelling evidence here as I have seen the post on BFT that merits investigation.

I have a couple of general thoughts on poaching:

1) I have never caught a trophy fish. Any trophy. But, I have been a legal fisherman all my life. I think each of us on this forum bears some additional responsibility and obligation to avoid the appearance of impropriety in our outdoor activities. The people here know the rules, know how to fish, and know better. It is not only a violation of the law to poach, but it is a violation of our mutual trust as sportsmen for any of the members of this forum to engage in any poaching activity.

2) Is a trophy worth your dignity? Will you cash out trust for antlers and fins? I would like a nice mac from Flaming Gorge more than just about anything else I can think of but I won't cheat to get it. It's like Barry Bonds getting the homerun title with an asterisk. He will be remembered as a cheater as long as baseball is played. Why would you want a fish on the wall to remind you that you are a cheater every time you pass by? 

3) Once you are busted, and you will be, all the people who praised and congratulated your trophy will never be able to trust you again. Every nice fish or 4 legged creature you ever catch will have an asterisk by it. Everyone will wonder whether or not you cheated to get that one too. Is it worth it?

I sound like my Dad but I'm glad he taught me that integrity is worth more than a trophy.


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## copper

Would it be so bad if he were catching rainbow planters?

As far as I am concerned he paid the fees for the license.


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## Dodger

copper said:


> Would it be so bad if he were catching rainbow planters?
> 
> As far as I am concerned he paid the fees for the license.


Yes, it would be just as bad if he was POACHING rainbow planters. Poaching is poaching. It is worse for members here to do it because they all know better. See thought 1.

The PDF says that the license was expired.


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## Greenhead_Slayer

copper said:


> Would it be so bad if he were catching rainbow planters?
> 
> As far as I am concerned he paid the fees for the license.


Seriously? What a horrible way to attempt justification.


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## PBH

Dodger said:


> copper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would it be so bad if he were catching rainbow planters?
> 
> As far as I am concerned he paid the fees for the license.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it would be just as bad if he was POACHING rainbow planters. Poaching is poaching. It is worse for members here to do it because they all know better. See thought 1.
> 
> The PDF says that the license was expired.
Click to expand...

Not only expired, but purchased illegally. He was on a hunting license suspension (for POACHING), and then knowingly purchased a combination license. That's illegal all by itself. So, even if the license were not expired, it was still against the law!

He was cheating the system. Knowingly. Like Dodger said, there is a moral aspect to this situation. Obviously, this person has no morals.


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## PBH

Chris -- stop PM'ing me and just post to this thread. If you want to discuss your innocence, or you're threats of a civil suit against me -- DO IT IN THE OPEN FOR ALL TO SEE.


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## Swaner

o-||


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## longbow

Sounds like a real classy guy. What's his name on UWF?


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## bowhunter

Some people just think they are above the law...Or they are just completely stupid. I hope they throw the book at people like this that blatantly disregard the rules and laws of the system that is here to protect us our Wildlife.


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## bowhunter

copper said:


> Would it be so bad if he were catching rainbow planters?
> 
> As far as I am concerned he paid the fees for the license.


I think this may be in the lead for the DUMBEST quote of 2011...


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## Catherder

First McLennon/Jensenkid and now "darth vader". Quite sad really. Maybe the DWR ought to assign a CO to the "internet beat" who just surfs the web and busts all the violators that just can't keep themselves from posting their conquests.


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## martymcfly73

PBH said:


> Chris -- stop PM'ing me and just post to this thread. If you want to discuss your innocence, or you're threats of a civil suit against me -- DO IT IN THE OPEN FOR ALL TO SEE.


Ya Chris or christopher 30 man up and take your medicine.


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## fordkustom

I have a 7 year old that i have to set an example for. By that I show him the proper and legal way to fish I make it clear that I have a license and he will need one when he gets to that age. This guy may take trophy fish but he sets a BAD example. I'd rather be a good example than ever catch a trophy.


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## doody

What a tool. This guy deserves jail time and a permanent revocation of all hunting and fishing privileges. I've already sent an email to the DWR expressing my frustration with this guys total disregard to OUR wildlife resources, I suggest everyone do the same. And is it just me, or is smattering the web with photos of an illegal harvest just a tacky thing to do? This thread should stay at the top of the page until this violent criminal is sentenced.


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## tye dye twins

Catherder said:


> Maybe the DWR ought to assign a CO to the "internet beat" who just surfs the web and busts all the violators that just can't keep themselves from posting their conquests.


Do we really need more of a "big brother" aspect to the DWR? Are they going to show up at the house's of anglers with a search warrent? It's bad enough these guys feel like spying on me with binoculars for 4+ hours! Just come on down and ask me stuff and check in later!



fordkustom said:


> This guy may take trophy fish but he sets a BAD example. I'd rather be a good example than ever catch a trophy.


Not me!

Doody- Violent? I don't think so! Jail would really interfer with someone's life....(jobs, schooling, etc.)and that is un called for! It's just a fish not a person that he hurt. Still the fine should be high.

At first I thought he had violated a fish reg. (using a illeagle bait/methods etc.) but it sounds like the hunter regs. is what this guy has done wrong in the past. If he never illegally hunted in the past you guys could not pin a thing on this guy.

Don't worry I am sure the fine will be high. One extra rainbow cost my twin and I $300 (142 for the fishy and 157 for concealment of wildlife). I think that the DWR should post up what this guy gets. Maybe they ought to post up what each violation costs somewhere! If I would have known exactly how much poaching fee's cost I would have never violated the rules. Sure some guys will just weigh the consequences out but I am sure other's would reconsider their violations knowing what a pretty penny it can cost you.

The whole "hollier than thou" gets old. Every angler has broken a rule at one point or another, just some of us get busted and have the balls to say so, and others are in total denial. This guy just went a little overboard with his exciting catch and now he is going to pay for it. Atleast the DWR was able to put 2 and 2 togather and bust 'em. If I see him out there I am going to mind my own bussiness and fish on!


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## .45

tye dye twins said:


> If I see him out there I am going to mind my own bussiness and fish on!


Not me tye dye.

First..I would ask him where he caught that monster. Then I would ask him why PBH gets his rocks off by posting other people's dirty laundry.


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## JuddCT

tye dye twins said:


> Do we really need more of a "big brother" aspect to the DWR? Are they going to show up at the house's of anglers with a search warrent? It's bad enough these guys feel like spying on me with binoculars for 4+ hours! Just come on down and ask me stuff and check in later!





tye dye twins said:


> Don't worry I am sure the fine will be high. One extra rainbow cost my twin and I $300 (142 for the fishy and 157 for concealment of wildlife).


The second quote is the reason Fish cops watch people for 4+ hours because people just can't follow the simple rules on a public resource. And obviously you guys learned your lesson, but ignorance shouldn't be a good excuse for not following the rules.


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## doody

Vandalism of a DWR trailer and wanton destruction of wildlife AFTER being cited = violent


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## garythelegend

I know the kid and the circumstances, unlike you, and I can honestly say the fishing stuff was not intentional, no one is perfect and I'm not justifying breaking the law but really? its a fish, he didn't murder people, it was a fish, get over it, I think your just mad because you can't catch big fish and this is a creative outlet for you to complain


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## Ifish

Not every angler breaks the rules. Just because one has been busted and has the "balls" to say so, doesn't make it right the next time anyone else does it. The laws are pretty simple, this guy knew what he was doing. Let's hope he gets what's coming to him, not more but not less.


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## doody

Reading the DWR release Gary, sorta sounds like it wasn't "just a fish." Wanton destruction of wildlife, illegally taking a trophy deer, vandalism of a DWR trailer AFTER being cited by officers, fishing on an expired license, hunting/fishing while on suspension. Really? Just a fish? And the whole ignorance defense gets old. In my opinon that just screams "I'm not only breaking the law, but I'm stupid too!" This is evidenced by the fact that this guy posted photos all over the place of an illegal harvest. He's obviously not a very bright guy.

And yes, I'm frustrated that poachers like this are out catching fish that I now don't have the opportunity to catch.


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## tye dye twins

Oh yeah I forgot to add " I would ask him what he used to get such a nice fish?" 


tye dye twins said:


> Don't worry I am sure the fine will be high. One extra rainbow cost my twin and I $300 (142 for the fishy and 157 for concealment of wildlife).





> The second quote is the reason Fish cops watch people for 4+ hours because people just can't follow the simple rules on a public resource. And obviously you guys learned your lesson, but ignorance shouldn't be a good excuse for not following the rules.


He had the fish on him the whole time cause guess what.... he had to return to the car! No need to watch people for that long. It is the whole you are guilty just because you are fishing, therefore we need to practically spy on you! It is very rare that a person would take the risk of keeping an extra fish just to throw it back in the water or the woods........... especially if they knew how much it costs.

While I was fihing at Currant Creek I was shocked how many people asked me "is there a limit around here"?

Vandalism of a trailer, where did it mention that? I gues I missed that but please give me more info about that.


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## Dodger

tye dye twins said:


> Do we really need more of a "big brother" aspect to the DWR? Are they going to show up at the house's of anglers with a search warrent? It's bad enough these guys feel like spying on me with binoculars for 4+ hours! Just come on down and ask me stuff and check in later!


It isn't big brother tye dye, it is law enforcement. The thing about poaching is the poacher is stealing from everyone. Do you know how much money Utah wildlife is worth to this state every year? Do you know how much of that money comes in from out of state? If you were in charge of protecting a pile of bills that high, would you watch it for 4+ hours? I sure would.

Furthermore, you aren't going to get a search warrant without probable cause. That means you have to have reason to believe that someone broke the law. You know why they watch for 4+ hours? It's the same reason they charged you $157 for concealment of wildlife.



tye dye twins said:


> fordkustom said:
> 
> 
> 
> This guy may take trophy fish but he sets a BAD example. I'd rather be a good example than ever catch a trophy.
> 
> 
> 
> Not me!
Click to expand...

That's a shame. You will not get ahead in life by cheating. I hope you don't have to learn that the hard way.



tye dye twins said:


> Doody- Violent? I don't think so! Jail would really interfer with someone's life....(jobs, schooling, etc.)and that is un called for! It's just a fish not a person that he hurt. Still the fine should be high.


I agree, this was not violent. But, jail isn't supposed to be convenient. I think it would send a message to those that think about it. You admit yourself, below, that the only reason you won't keep an extra fish again is because now you know how much it will cost you. Maybe if you know that you are going to get some jail time, you wouldn't keep an extra fish either.[/quote



tye dye twins said:


> At first I thought he had violated a fish reg. (using a illeagle bait/methods etc.) but it sounds like the hunter regs. is what this guy has done wrong in the past. If he never illegally hunted in the past you guys could not pin a thing on this guy.


Do you understand that it was illegal for him to buy a license because of what he did in the past? That made all of his fishing/hunting illegal. So you are really arguing that if he hadn't done anything wrong, the state couldn't prove he did something wrong now. But if he hadn't done anything wrong, it wouldn't have been illegal for him to buy a license. You are arguing chicken or the egg when the real issue is causal.



tye dye twins said:


> Don't worry I am sure the fine will be high. One extra rainbow cost my twin and I $300 (142 for the fishy and 157 for concealment of wildlife). I think that the DWR should post up what this guy gets. Maybe they ought to post up what each violation costs somewhere! If I would have known exactly how much poaching fee's cost I would have never violated the rules. Sure some guys will just weigh the consequences out but I am sure other's would reconsider their violations knowing what a pretty penny it can cost you.


It doesn't matter if the fine is high. A fine doesn't replace a trophy deer or a trophy fish. It's purely punishment. You admit that you are afraid of the punishment now that you know what it is. I guarantee that the regulations allow for a punishment that is far worse than the one he got. You can look up the maximum punishments. Anything less than that is discretionary based on the severity of the offense and any history of previous offenses. You don't just get to decide that the fish you just caught is worth an extra $300 in the even you get caught. That's not the point. You need to decide if the fish you just caught is worth the maximum punishment, including jail time and, if it is, the maximum punishment should be tougher.



tye dye twins said:


> The whole "hollier than thou" gets old. Every angler has broken a rule at one point or another, just some of us get busted and have the balls to say so, and others are in total denial. This guy just went a little overboard with his exciting catch and now he is going to pay for it. Atleast the DWR was able to put 2 and 2 togather and bust 'em. If I see him out there I am going to mind my own bussiness and fish on!


No sir, no. I refuse to live that way. If there is ANY question in my mind whether or not a fish is legal, it goes back in the water, immediately. I tried to keep a fish that was too long at Yellowstone when I was 6 years old until my Dad intervened. While he would have been the one stuck with the fine, I learned that my word was worth more than a nice Yellowstone cutt. That fish swam back to his home near Stevenson Island moments later.

It's not holier than though tye dye, it is so I can look you in the eye and tell you I have never cheated and ask you and everyone else to live that standard. That's worth more to me than a nice fish.

I think you absolutely should call on poachers. But if you are willing to cheat the rules in the first place, you are probably willing to let others do it, to the detriment of everyone. It's not one little fish, it is your integrity.

.45 - I agree with you to some extent. As I mentioned earlier, I think we have more obligation to follow the rules because we all know them. The alleged poaching here was done knowingly and intentionally. I think PBH is not necessarily posting dirty laundry, I think he's asking a large group of people who fish frequently to keep an eye out for poaching, especially those poachers that appear to be particularly egregious in their poaching.

If this guy is out fishing and you see him, you should call the number. I don't think this post was made to embarrass the alleged poacher but more to let other people know to watch out for poaching, especially from this particular person. I don't see any malice here.

Just like Tye Dye - He paid his fine and he's on the up and up now with the law. If this person wants to get on the up and up with the law, do whatever he needs to do, I'm ready to congratulate a nice fish and move on. People make mistakes. If he learns from them, as Tye Dye did, great. If he wants to continue stealing from the people, then I hope anyone that is aware of any additional poaching calls it in.


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## 300MAG

Couldnt agree more with doody and Ifish. Seem like way too many are trying to justify violating the laws. Its getting old. "If I had know what the fine was, I wouldnt have violated the law????? Get serious.


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## doody

Tyedye - read the DWR link in the first post - vandalism of a DWR trailer and wanton destruction of wildlife AFTER being cited. Obviously the guy has a temper and went above and beyond a simple "ignorance" infraction.


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## Critter

I like the excuse that it is only a fish. How about it is only a deer, an elk, or a moose where does it end. It sounds like in some of your eyes here that if he robed a bank you would say it is only money. How do you guys feel about drunk driving? He isn't hurting anybody driving drunk until he kills somebody. He knew that what he was doing was wrong but yet he continued to do it and quite likely even after the new sentence of loosing his license for a few more years and a fine will do it some more. A jail sentence just may make him think of it. 
For the Twins, you knew what you were doing was wrong but continued to fish and you called it a fee. A fee is something that you pay to do something and not something that you pay after you get caught. You paid a fine for doing wrong and got caught.


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## Dodger

tye dye twins said:


> He had the fish on him the whole time cause guess what.... he had to return to the car! No need to watch people for that long. It is the whole you are guilty just because you are fishing, therefore we need to practically spy on you! It is very rare that a person would take the risk of keeping an extra fish just to throw it back in the water or the woods........... especially if they knew how much it costs.


Bless your heart Tye Dye but the reason that you feel guilty is because you were guilty. You are more leery around people that have proven themselves untrustworthy. No officer has ever watched me for 4 hours.

If you didn't ever cheat, you'd have nothing to worry about and you wouldn't figure out how to hide an illegal fish.


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## Dodger

garythelegend said:


> I know the kid and the circumstances, unlike you, and I can honestly say the fishing stuff was not intentional, no one is perfect and I'm not justifying breaking the law but really? its a fish, he didn't murder people, it was a fish, get over it, I think your just mad because you can't catch big fish and this is a creative outlet for you to complain


With all due respect, the fishing stuff not being intentional is irrelevant. You don't just get to poach and then say "I didn't mean it."

It's this kind of rationalization that leads to breaking the law in the first place. Oh, it's only a 5 cent piece of candy. Oh it's only a dollar. Oh it's only ten dollars. It's not just a fish, it is integrity and willingness to break the law.

No, it isn't. It's stealing. It's always stealing. Whether you meant it or whether it was a small amount doesn't matter. Stealing is stealing.

How about instead of excusing the behavior, you apologize for it and encourage him not to do it again?

P.S. Welcome to the board. I see you just registered exactly 14 minutes before your first post on this particular subject. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that your IP address and the alleged poacher's address are pretty similar.

I wish I could congratulate you on a nice fish but you didn't earn it. I wish for you that you had.


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## Riverrat77

Who cares if PBH made the post to embarrass the angler? He should be embarrassed... because its a bad reflection on sportsmen as a whole and as recent as last weekend some guys were bragging on this guy to me... and I'm embarrassed for them, although its not their fault. Yet another one of our "awesome" guys who winds up getting busted for something stupid.... seriously, our game laws aren't that complicated. :roll:


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## doody

http://wildlife.utah.gov/law/pdf2/sr_trophy_fish.pdf

Those of you defending this tool, please read this article very carefully. Chris was cited for spotlighing with a weapon AND THEN CONTINUED TO POACH A TROPHY BUCK, THEN VANDALIZED A DWR TRAILER TO BOOT. There is no "ignorance" defense here. He had every opportunity to stop with the spotlighting citation but he decided to continue to POACH a trophy buck and violently vandalize a DWR vehicle.

Its amazing that some of you can defend this type of behavior. This person needs, at the very least, to lose all hunting and fishing privilages for life. And a few of you need a little injection of integrity.


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## Dodger

Riverrat77 said:


> Who cares if PBH made the post to embarrass the angler? He should be embarrassed... because its a bad reflection on sportsmen as a whole and as recent as last weekend some guys were bragging on this guy to me... and I'm embarrassed for them, although its not their fault. Yet another one of our "awesome" guys who winds up getting busted for something stupid.... seriously, our game laws aren't that complicated. :roll:


I don't think anyone ought to kick a guy while he's down. But I don't think that's what PBH was doing here.


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## gwailow

Breaking the law is breaking the law, it should be that simple. No if's and's or but's...


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## tye dye twins

300MAG said:


> Couldnt agree more with doody and Ifish. Seem like way too many are trying to justify violating the laws. Its getting old. "If I had know what the fine was, I wouldnt have violated the law????? Get serious.


Info is needed. You would not believe how many people asked me last weekend "is there a limit around here?" First thing I would say is hell yes! It cost me $300 for 1 extra rainbow. You could not believe the shock on there faces! Instantly they would thank me and I saw them release for the day. The anglers at the ponds react the same way. One even told me "oh man and to think that could have happend to me last weekend, I am never gonna do that again."

It is kinda like the freeway billboard that says it costs $750 to cutt off a semi. When people are informed about the cost they think twice cause money means a lot to people.

Now come on did he vandalize the trailer during this FISH inccident? Hunting is a different story that was in his past. That where I call the violence stuff = jail time for this offense a little un-called for.

HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING AND THERFORE HE SHOULD GET THE MAX! No way can he claim to have not known but then again he posted the pic and sent it to the Trib so who knows for sure?


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## jahan

tye dye twins said:


> 300MAG said:
> 
> 
> 
> Couldnt agree more with doody and Ifish. Seem like way too many are trying to justify violating the laws. Its getting old. "If I had know what the fine was, I wouldnt have violated the law????? Get serious.
> 
> 
> 
> Info is needed. You would not believe how many people asked me last weekend "is there a limit around here?" First thing I would say is hell yes! It cost me $300 for 1 extra rainbow. You could not believe the shock on there faces! Instantly they would thank me and I saw them release for the day. The anglers at the ponds react the same way. One even told me "oh man and to think that could have happend to me last weekend, I am never gonna do that again."
> 
> It is kinda like the freeway billboard that says it costs $750 to cutt off a semi. When people are informed about the cost they think twice cause money means a lot to people.
> 
> Now come on did he vandalize the trailer during this FISH inccident? Hunting is a different story that was in his past. That where I call the violence stuff = jail time for this offense a little un-called for.
> 
> HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING AND THERFORE HE SHOULD GET THE MAX! No way can he claim to have not known but then again he posted the pic and sent it to the Trib so who knows for sure?
Click to expand...

I am sorry dude, but people need to read the proclamation, it is that simple. I thought you wanted "Big Brother" DWR to get out of your business, now you want them to educated everyone? What ever happened to personal accountability? Why does our current society feel the need to blame everyone else, but themselves when they screw up? I am glad you learned your lesson and I am glad that you are helping other understand the rules better, but don't use lack of understanding or ignorance of the rules be an excuse for breaking the law.


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## tye dye twins

jahan said:


> I am sorry dude, but people need to read the proclamation, it is that simple. I thought you wanted "Big Brother" DWR to get out of your business, now you want them to educated everyone? What ever happened to personal accountability? Why does our current society feel the need to blame everyone else, but themselves when they screw up? I am glad you learned your lesson and I am glad that you are helping other understand the rules better, but don't use lack of understanding or ignorance of the rules be an excuse for breaking the law.


The prices are not in the proc in fact they are nowhere to be found! Education isn't big brother! It doesn't involve standing and watching you for hours. There is a ton of mis information out there thanks to angler myths. These guys will tell you on the water that there are all these loopholes to keeping more fish when really they have no idea what they are talking about. I had a knowledgeable angler talk about practicing chumming by craftly talking about shrimp juices in a basket under their pontoon. When I walked into a bait shop and asked about baskets they infomed me nicely that this man was talking about chumming and that is illeagle! Whoo glad I ask and got some EDUCATION before some DWR agent had the chance to ticket me. To the credit of the CO's I am sure that they hear the "I didnt know" excuse way too much! In other words they should give the ticket if there is an infraction. Most anglers know the rules and this guy did and decided to break them anyways. I guess it took too long to bust him to take the catch from him though, and that is a shame.


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## Critter

tye dye twins said:


> Info is needed. You would not believe how many people asked me last weekend "is there a limit around here?"


Perhaps you and the rest of whoever you talked to need to go read the fishing guide book. If it free and can be found in just about every store that sells any type of fishing equipment.


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## doody

Prices? C'mon, they're not prices, they're FINES. And the possible ranges of these penalties for breaking the law are most definitely in the proclamation. I'm having a hard time seeing your point of view. Is it the "price" of your breaking the law that is preventing you from going it again, or do you sincerely want to play by the rules?


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## jahan

tye dye twins said:


> [quote="jahan]
> I am sorry dude, but people need to read the proclamation, it is that simple. I thought you wanted "Big Brother" DWR to get out of your business, now you want them to educated everyone? What ever happened to personal accountability? Why does our current society feel the need to blame everyone else, but themselves when they screw up? I am glad you learned your lesson and I am glad that you are helping other understand the rules better, but don't use lack of understanding or ignorance of the rules be an excuse for breaking the law.


The prices are not in the proc in fact they are nowhere to be found! Education isn't big brother! It doesn't involve standing and watching you for hours. There is a ton of mis information out there thanks to angler myths. These guys will tell you on the water that there are all these loopholes to keeping more fish when really they have no idea what they are talking about. I had a knowlegeble angler talk about practicing chumming by craftly talking about shrimp juices in a basket under their pontoon. When I walked into a bait shop and asked about baskets they infomed me nicely that this man was talking about chumming and that is illeagle! Whoo glad I ask and got some EDUCATION before some DWR agent had the chance to ticket me. To the credit of the CO's I am sure that they hear the "I didnt know" excuse way too much! In other words they should give the ticket if there is an infraction. Most anglers know the rules and this guy did and decided to break them anyways. I guess it took too long to bust him to take the catch from him though, and that is a shame.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I guess I just don't get why the fine should matter. Why does it matter if the fine is $10 or $10,000, it is still breaking the rules that are ALL clearly defined in the proclamation. Some advice, don't trust other anglers. Take there advice or tips and then research them in the proclamation, run it by a CO, call the DWR office or even post your question here on the forum. Once again, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.


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## tye dye twins

Critter said:


> tye dye twins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Info is needed. You would not believe how many people asked me last weekend "is there a limit around here?"
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you and the rest of whoever you talked to need to go read the fishing guide book. If it free and can be found in just about every store that sells any type of fishing equipment.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I read the proc carefully and now I understand it. When I have a question I ask it here and I get good answers. Not everybody has a great resource like this site. It is the angler myths that create the confusion...usually they are more unexperienced anglers but a few old timers will give out wrong info too.

I choose to only belive half the crap that comes out of an anglers mouth.(My favorite's are the guys that tell you a perfectly leagle method of fishing is illeagle) It's hard to ingnore something you want to hear though.

In no way shape or form did this guy "not know" what he was doing.


----------



## jahan

tye dye twins said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="tye dye twins":3dhvwccc]
> 
> Info is needed. You would not believe how many people asked me last weekend "is there a limit around here?"
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you and the rest of whoever you talked to need to go read the fishing guide book. If it free and can be found in just about every store that sells any type of fishing equipment.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I read the proc carefully and now I understand it. When I have a question I ask it here and I get good answers. Not everybody has a great resource like this site. It is the angler myths that create the confusion...usually they are more unexperienced anglers but a few old timers will give out wrong info too.

I choose to only belive half the crap that comes out of an anglers mouth. It's is hard to ignore something you want to hear though.[/quote:3dhvwccc]

I like to hear stories like yours of people learning from mistakes. We have all made mistakes, the key is learning from them. I still don't understand the fine amount making a difference, but oh well. :mrgreen:


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## 300MAG

Tye dye you just dont get it do you???


----------



## The WGF

PBH 

Hey ! What about the precious "Rules" that you are so concerned about being broken, are so much more important than the "Rules" of this forum...IE: No Personal Attacks !!!

Maybe you should have gone to work for the Fish and Game like your BROTHER, if you wanted to act as Judge, Jury, and Executioner. 

Enough Already...


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## reaper

Is this Chris??? o-||


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## Ifish

tye dye twins said:


> Not everybody has a great resource like this site. It is the angler myths that create the confusion...usually they are more unexperienced anglers but a few old timers will give out wrong info too.
> 
> I choose to only belive half the crap that comes out of an anglers mouth.(My favorite's are the guys that tell you a perfectly leagle method of fishing is illeagle) It's hard to ingnore something you want to hear though.


Maybe not everyone is a member of the site, but they all have access to the rules in hard copy or on the web.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/guidebooks ... ebook.html

Legal is spelled out pretty clearly and consistently.


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## .45

Riverrat77 said:


> seriously, our game laws aren't that complicated. :roll:


Really RR? Not complicated at all, then why did this happen?

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1669&hilit=poaching

You know, we all make mistakes and all of us have to answer for them one way or another. I just don't think it's right airing out dirty laundry of our members on this forum.


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## reaper

Thats gonna leave a mark!!!! :shock: :shock: :lol:


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## 1BandMan

I love to hear that there are DWR officers out and about. It keeps the honest, honest. They can come check me at my truck, out in my boat, out in the field or sit in the bushes and watch me with binoculars all day long if they wish. Again it keeps the honest, honest.

I hate folks that justify poor behavior by saying "eveyone does it/breaks the law sometime", "you've got a holy'er than thou attitute," etc. for justification for illegal behavior. This type of attitude is one of a criminal for justification for their acts. It deflects responsibility and has no place. There are a grundle of these folks up at the point of the mountain or in Gunnison with these same beliefs.

If the person in question has indeed committed the acts described, I hope the court recognizes this persons issues with intent and integrity and the maximum fine allowed is imposed.


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## doody

Edited- you're right grandpaD- hard to draw the line but this should definitely continue to be discussed. At the very least it might deter similar activity.


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## Grandpa D

Just a reminder to everyone.
Here in America we have a great thing called Due Process.
Please keep your comments within the forum guidelines and let's let the law take care of this.

Let's don't turn the UWN into a lynching party.


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## REPETER

Grandpa D said:


> Just a reminder to everyone.
> Here in America we have a great thing called Due Process.
> Please keep your comments within the forum guidelines and let's let the law take care of this.
> 
> Let's don't turn the UWN into a lynching party.


Agreed. It'd be nice to find out what the outcome is :shock:


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## Huge29

Well said Grandpa D! 
As for a few other accusations in this thread about the alleged poacher defending himself via new user names; our two new users are from opposite ends of the state and neither IP has ever previously been used by a member. That does not mean it is not him, but he can't at least be in Davis County and Iron county at the same time. 
I did edit PBH's post for the name calling as someone pointed out. 
I questioned PBH's motivation before reading the details, now that I know the details I must say that it irritates me too to have such a recidivistic poacher still out there poaching from you and I. However, he does get his day in court, but if the allegations are accurate.... :O//:


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## doody

Someone at least tell me if he would have been allowed to keep that trophy fish. Is it usual practice to confiscate game that is illegally harvested? The article mentions the charge of wanton destruction with the fish so we know it wasn't released.


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## scott_rn

PBH, the guy shouldn't discuss it here. Seems there was someone else on here who stopped posting for a few months while a court case played out. I'm no attorney, but I'm sure any attorney would tell you to quit talking to your "internet friends" about anything you're being charged with.

About keeping the fish - didn't he usually release all the big fish he caught in fl? I remember a lot of discussions after the spearfishing tournament and I thought he was an advocate of C&R.


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## cmc-1

Yes I am new this forum. No I am not the individual. However I do know him very well. I have noticed that no one has pointed out the fact that he paid for his previous violations. there was a huge fine, X amount of years no hunting (not No fishing), and he also did jail time. The great thing is that everyone has no problem bringing up the past issues. The issue is the fishing if you want to gossip about it then gossip about it; not the past as far as the DWR and the court is concerned the other stuff is CLOSED leave it that way. I am more than willing to talk to anyone about it PM me your number and I will give u call. But I'm sure no one will do that. They will just get on the forum an say how I am defending him. I am only defending him on the things that I know. I was not there with him when any of this went down and neither were you. Try to remember that when you are slinging accusations. Weather you want to believe it or not everyone has broken some kind of law willingly or unwillingly. I am sure that Everyone has received a traffic ticket or some other kind of violation. The law is the law Right. So lets start burning everyone at the cross


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## doody

Well said, I would invite Chris to pm me his side of story that will be kept under strickest
Silence on my part


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## Huge29

cmc-1 said:


> Yes I am new this forum. No I am not the individual. However I do know him very well. I have noticed that no one has pointed out the fact that he paid for his previous violations. there was a huge fine, X amount of years no hunting (not No fishing), and he also did jail time. The great thing is that everyone has no problem bringing up the past issues. The issue is the fishing if you want to gossip about it then gossip about it; not the past as far as the DWR and the court is concerned the other stuff is CLOSED leave it that way. I am more than willing to talk to anyone about it PM me your number and I will give u call. But I'm sure no one will do that. They will just get on the forum an say how I am defending him. I am only defending him on the things that I know. I was not there with him when any of this went down and neither were you. Try to remember that when you are slinging accusations. Weather you want to believe it or not everyone has broken some kind of law willingly or unwillingly. I am sure that Everyone has received a traffic ticket or some other kind of violation. The law is the law Right. So lets start burning everyone at the cross


 Yes, I did receive two tickets 17 years ago...
I can appreciate you defending your buddy or relative, but it made me laugh in that your post reminds me of a Simpsons episode-Milhouse is mad that people were only talking about the one day on which he wore girl's underwear "but, why aren't they talking about all of the days that I did NOT wear girl's underwear?" Just made me chuckle. 
I would agree with you that the case is closed, however this fellar seems to have a recurring pattern over many years, I appreciate your loyalty.


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## cmc-1

I am in no way defending Poaching. It is wrong yes. It has not been proven he was poaching, he was only charged. It is not up to any of us to decide what happens unless you are one of the lucky/unlucky ones who ends up on jury duty. That is assuming that it goes that far.


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## HOGAN

This really is a shame. 

I must agree with cmc-1 that the past is the past. The list that Chris HAS done is in the past. He like the rest of us was an idiot when he was young. And to be honest he still is young. 
He is a dumb ass for letting his licience expire. Could happen to anyone but it happened to him and maybe the DNR is wanting to make an example out of him, who knows. Not sure what all the past history and digging up graves is going to accomplish. Maybe trying to show a pattern of destructive and careless behavior. Well it is there, wooopie. 

I am sick and tired of people saying well it's just a fish. There are NO grey lines about it. Fishing with an expired licience is poaching. As well as shooting an 380 elk @ midnight out of season is poaching. Shooting a sage grouse with an arrow before the season starts, keeping fish in the slot that have died are ALL poaching. 

Bottom line is this, I have never met Chris in person, but I will tell you this, he is not an individual that leaves his house with the intention of poaching. I would be willing to bet a majority of ALL members have poached at least once in their lives. He will get what is coming to him and pay up for what he IS guilty of. But trust me there are far worse people out there that have never been caught once, let alone every time he did anything wrong. 

One more piece of friendly advise, I would watch what you say what anyone is guilty of or assumong to much info on this one, it is being watched very close and there WILL be reprocutions happening, would hate to see anyone else get involved. Not to say you cannot discuss the current case and different degrees of poaching but.

We all have skeletons, I too would be PO'ed if mine were aired out for all to see.


----------



## Nambaster

I just journeyed through pages 1-6 of this post to see if I could guess who the man behind the curtain is... I am still in the dark. But this is a neat little discussion on ethics. Seems like a lot of forum members are describing the limits of their outdoor extremes. 

Reminds me of the sleep overs that I used to have when I was 11... 

So how far would you go?


----------



## wyogoob

HOGAN said:


> This really is a shame.
> ...................................
> 
> We all have skeletons, I too would be PO'ed if mine were aired out for all to see.


I got busted last week, speeding, 77 in a 65, Hazen North Dakota.

I just had ta tell somebody.


----------



## Huge29

wyogoob said:


> HOGAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> This really is a shame.
> ...................................
> 
> We all have skeletons, I too would be PO'ed if mine were aired out for all to see.
> 
> 
> 
> I got busted last week, speeding, 77 in a 65, Hazen North Dakota.
> 
> I just had ta tell somebody.
Click to expand...

Now do 3 Hail Mary's! :mrgreen:


----------



## Riverrat77

.45 said:


> Riverrat77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> seriously, our game laws aren't that complicated. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Really RR? Not complicated at all, then why did this happen?
> 
> viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1669&hilit=poaching
> 
> You know, we all make mistakes and all of us have to answer for them one way or another. I just don't think it's right airing out dirty laundry of our members on this forum.
Click to expand...

That was a good discussion.... after I read the regs for myself and resolved the situation, I'll stand by what I said. They're not that complicated, especially when it comes to what you need a license or tag for, at least as far as I'm concerned.  Being on a fishing trip, reading and knowing big game regs was hardly my foremost consideration but I'm glad the discussion was had and things were cleared at the end. Regarding that incident, I never did hear from anyone describing what they'd shot and lost.

Fishing with an expired combo tag you weren't even supposed to have? That doesn't seem like rocket science but excuse me if I'm mistaken there. 8)


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## Mallardpin

HOGAN said:


> This really is a shame.
> 
> I must agree with cmc-1 that the past is the past. The list that Chris HAS done is in the past. He like the rest of us was an idiot when he was young. And to be honest he still is young.
> He is a **** letting his licience expire. Could happen to anyone but it happened to him and maybe the DNR is wanting to make an example out of him, who knows. Not sure what all the past history and digging up graves is going to accomplish. Maybe trying to show a pattern of destructive and careless behavior. Well it is there, wooopie.
> 
> I am sick and tired of people saying well it's just a fish. There are NO grey lines about it. Fishing with an expired licience is poaching. As well as shooting an 380 elk @ midnight out of season is poaching. Shooting a sage grouse with an arrow before the season starts, keeping fish in the slot that have died are ALL poaching.
> 
> Bottom line is this, I have never met Chris in person, but I will tell you this, he is not an individual that leaves his house with the intention of poaching. I would be willing to bet a majority of ALL members have poached at least once in their lives. He will get what is coming to him and pay up for what he IS guilty of. But trust me there are far worse people out there that have never been caught once, let alone every time he did anything wrong.
> 
> One more piece of friendly advise, I would watch what you say what anyone is guilty of or assumong to much info on this one, it is being watched very close and there WILL be reprocutions happening, would hate to see anyone else get involved. Not to say you cannot discuss the current case and different degrees of poaching but.
> 
> We all have skeletons, I too would be PO'ed if mine were aired out for all to see.


NO the bottom line is he never should have bought the licence he did buy. Every time he left his house to fish he knew he was pouching. He had his hunting privileges suspended but bought a combination licence anyways. This shows he has learned nothing from the fines and jail time he got in the past. That is why the past is so important it shows he don't care and he thinks he is better then the laws. I hope he gets the maximum fines and jail and loss of fishing PRIVLIGES that he can. Then maybe he will learn because so far he has shown he has not.


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## doody

I agree, the past crimes should not be looked past in this instance for they all are connected and show an overal disregard for our natural resources. Sounds like this guy has even been sentenced to jail in the past which leaves me just shaking my head. He will never change and we will continually need to keep an eye out for him on our local waters. I hope that most would make the call instead of turning a blind eye like some others are advocating.


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## Wounded Coot

I have seen the enemy, and he is us.
Mac


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## quakeycrazy

Jail for the fish violation? Hell no. In our society even the most disgusting of people (lindsey lohan, paris hilton etc) don't spend time in jail for real charges. Now the deer poaching and vandalism charge that is another story.


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## Dodger

I have to disagree with those who argue that the things in the past are irrelevant because they are in the past.

It is precisely because of what he did in the past that he was not allowed to buy a combination license which led to additional violations, if the allegations are true. Assuming that, he was not supposed to have a fishing license, even an expired one, because of what he had already done. That makes the past poaching relevant to this discussion even beyond the recidivist pattern.


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## Treehugnhuntr

There's a difference between an occurrence and a trend.


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## reaper

How is illegally fishing, having no license and catching fish any different than hunting without a license, killing deer, elk moose ect....??? They are all protected species? They both are public resources, they are owned by all of us. A fish may have little value you to some, most of you, but there still is no difference when it comes to the law. The animals he has stolen can not be replaced. All of us have lost the opportunity to legally take any of the animals he may have poached.


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## 1BandMan

I can't believe some folks logic. 
"Everyone has broken the law sometime or another." "We all have skeletons." "Everyone has poached something sometime in their lives." etc., etc. etc.

Yup we ought to simply go by the "feel good principal." 
I think I'll go bash some old lady in the head for her social security check....you folks need to look the other way because sometime or another you've broken the law too. If some mean and miserable cop decides to aprehend me because he's been hiding in the bushes and watched me do it, its actually his fault for arresting me. I nor anyone else should be responsible and the courts sentance should be little or nothing since it was just a couple months ago that I had to pay a huge fine for indecent exposure.

Some of you folks are peaches......geeeeesh. 

If someone has multiple violations of the same type over and over......shouldn't they sometime or another be responsible to someone or something????? No wonder there are so many young men and women running around causing damage since their parents have taught them to not be responsible to anyone or anything including themselves.


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## tye dye twins

1BandMan said:


> I can't believe some folks logic.
> "Everyone has broken the law sometime or another." "We all have skeletons." "Everyone has poached something sometime in their lives." etc., etc. etc.
> 
> Yup we ought to simply go by the "feel good principal."
> I think I'll go bash some old lady in the head for her social security check....you folks need to look the other way because sometime or another you've broken the law too. If some mean and miserable cop decides to aprehend me because he's been hiding in the bushes and watched me do it, its actually his fault for arresting me. I nor anyone else should be responsible and the courts sentance should be little or nothing since it was just a couple months ago that I had to pay a huge fine for indecent exposure.
> 
> Some of you folks are peaches......geeeeesh.
> 
> If someone has multiple violations of the same type over and over......shouldn't they sometime or another be responsible to someone or something????? No wonder there are so many young men and women running around causing damage since their parents have taught them to not be responsible to anyone or anything including themselves.


I think you have forgotten we are talking anbout a stupid fish. A fish is never worth all the crap you guys feel justified in handing out. Get real, come on.


----------



## proutdoors

I am confused, I thought a person was innocent until PROVEN guilty. It seems many on here have taken the law into their own hands and have tried and convicted the accused without a trial. I don't know if this guy is guilty or not, and since I won't be on the jury I am not going to try the case on the internet. Two years ago I was accused of actions that if true could have resulted in legal ramifications. Many on here were check to convict me as well, others stood beside me, others stayed neutral. I also recall a few members of this forum being accused of poaching a couple of years ago, and while their were not completely innocent, their level of involvement was a far cry from what some on here claimed. Seems to me the wise and prudent thing in cases like this is to let ALL the facts come to light BEFORE finding a tall tree and a noose. I am as troubled by the actions of many here as I am of the accusations being leveled against this guy. If he is convicted, then fire away, but to act in this manner now is childish and irresponsible!

:V|: :RULES:


----------



## Dodger

tye dye twins said:


> I think you have forgotten we are talking anbout a stupid fish. A fish is never worth all the crap you guys feel justified in handing out. Get real, come on.


If a fish isn't worth the crap, then why is the fish worth stealing?


----------



## tye dye twins

Dodger said:


> tye dye twins said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have forgotten we are talking anbout a stupid fish. A fish is never worth all the crap you guys feel justified in handing out. Get real, come on.
> 
> 
> 
> If a fish isn't worth the crap, then why is the fish worth stealing?
Click to expand...

Don't know ask chris, probably shoulda kept it to himself (ie. no crap can be given if it wasn't presented).

Personally what lead my twin to taking the extra fish was his biggest tiger trout ever. Tiger fever if you will. Well he got busted and now days we leave an extra fish in the slot for the monster fish. It certainly isn't worth the $300 to "steal" a fish. Lesson learned. Ya maybe it is all about the $$$$ to me. That is aslo what stops me from speeding. Sorry if we all tick a little different.


----------



## jahan

proutdoors said:


> I am confused, I thought a person was innocent until PROVEN guilty. It seems many on here have taken the law into their own hands and have tried and convicted the accused without a trial. I don't know if this guy is guilty or not, and since I won't be on the jury I am not going to try the case on the internet. Two years ago I was accused of actions that if true could have resulted in legal ramifications. Many on here were check to convict me as well, others stood beside me, others stayed neutral. I also recall a few members of this forum being accused of poaching a couple of years ago, and while their were not completely innocent, their level of involvement was a far cry from what some on here claimed. Seems to me the wise and prudent thing in cases like this is to let ALL the facts come to light BEFORE finding a tall tree and a noose. I am as troubled by the actions of many here as I am of the accusations being leveled against this guy. If he is convicted, then fire away, but to act in this manner now is childish and irresponsible!
> 
> :V|: :RULES:


I agree with most of your post, but you have to realize there is a history here of illegal activities. He may be innocent of the charges filed, I know he is a hell of a fisherman. I know you are sensitive to people jumping to conclusions because of what happened to you, which is completely understandable.


----------



## 1BandMan

I'm not talking about anyone specific, but I cant believe some of the justification for poor behavior and breaking the law. 
If the dude the thread is about gets lit up, he gets lit up. If he's exhonerated, he's exhonerated.

Poaching *IS* out of hand. Much of this is due to the dollar its associated with. "Its just a fish"? Theres a lot of others that feel otherwise and much of it is that folks spend a lot of cash in the competition, rather than recreation. Many don't mind taking the risk of poaching as it is considered a "small fee" in their direction to bigger and better.

There are folks that will spend thousands of dollars on "just a fish" and into the 6 digit figures for "just a deer" or "just an elk."


----------



## jahan

tye dye twins said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="tye dye twins":1bcq814i]
> I think you have forgotten we are talking anbout a stupid fish. A fish is never worth all the crap you guys feel justified in handing out. Get real, come on.
> 
> 
> 
> If a fish isn't worth the crap, then why is the fish worth stealing?
Click to expand...

Don't know ask chris, probably shoulda kept it to himself (ie. no crap can be given if it wasn't presented).

Personally what lead my twin to taking the extra fish was his biggest tiger trout ever. Tiger fever if you will. Well he got busted and now days we leave an extra fish in the slot for the monster fish. It certainly isn't worth the $300 to "steal" a fish. Lesson learned. Ya maybe it is all about the $$$$ to me. That is aslo what stops me from speeding. Sorry if we all tick a little different.[/quote:1bcq814i]

I gotta say I respect your honesty on the subject Tye Dye. We have all done something knowingly or unknowingly that was illegal, the trick is learning from our mistakes. We will see if Chris learned or if he didn't.


----------



## 1BandMan

tye dye twins said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="tye dye twins":2gu0dzlx]
> I think you have forgotten we are talking anbout a stupid fish. A fish is never worth all the crap you guys feel justified in handing out. Get real, come on.
> 
> 
> 
> If a fish isn't worth the crap, then why is the fish worth stealing?
Click to expand...

Don't know ask chris, probably shoulda kept it to himself (ie. no crap can be given if it wasn't presented).

Personally what lead my twin to taking the extra fish was his biggest tiger trout ever. Tiger fever if you will. Well he got busted and now days we leave an extra fish in the slot for the monster fish. It certainly isn't worth the $300 to "steal" a fish. Lesson learned. Ya maybe it is all about the $$$$ to me. That is aslo what stops me from speeding. Sorry if we all tick a little different.[/quote:2gu0dzlx]

This is the kind of thinking that is dangerous. 
So you would probably bash an old lady in the head for her Social Security check if it were legal or the fine was minimal or at least less than what her check was worth???


----------



## Dodger

tye dye twins said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="tye dye twins":2qzk7hit]
> I think you have forgotten we are talking anbout a stupid fish. A fish is never worth all the crap you guys feel justified in handing out. Get real, come on.
> 
> 
> 
> If a fish isn't worth the crap, then why is the fish worth stealing?
Click to expand...

Don't know ask chris, probably shoulda kept it to himself (ie. no crap can be given if it wasn't presented).

Personally what lead my twin to taking the extra fish was his biggest tiger trout ever. Tiger fever if you will. Well he got busted and now days we leave an extra fish in the slot for the monster fish. It certainly isn't worth the $300 to "steal" a fish. Lesson learned. Ya maybe it is all about the $$$$ to me. That is aslo what stops me from speeding. Sorry if we all tick a little different.[/quote:2qzk7hit]

I think you are missing my point and my comments have been broadly directed to poaching in general rather than the specific case here. When I have referred to the specific case, I have called it "alleged" or said that it "merits investigation."

You are assigning no value to a stolen fish because it is "only" a fish and saying that the fish isn't worth the crap.

If a fish isn't worth crap, then why is it worth stealing? You wouldn't steal something that doesn't have value.

I think you (or your twin) are standup guys for admitting that you made a mistake, paying a fine, and committing yourself/selves to not doing it again. But, saying that a fish has no value isn't accurate and it doesn't excuse poaching behavior, for anyone.


----------



## Critter

I like the analogy that it's just a fish. Perhaps I need to try that next hunting season when I see a larger buck or bull after I have already shot one. You also need to try that analogy the next time that you go fishing and have over your limit. I'm betting that it will go over real good with the officer not to mention the judge.


----------



## Chaser

I don't know if the guy is innocent or guilty, but I'll tell you this much- if someone steals from me, regardless of the dollar value of what was taken, I want the THEIF convicted to the FULLEST!!! Theft is theft, no matter how petty it may be, and if we allow the small things to slip, its only a matter of time before criminals steal bigger things to push the limits. No amount of poaching, however small should go unpunished. If a person gets caught once, maybe the consequence will help to encourage better behavior in the future. 

I'm glad they don't publish the fines for different infractions. Like someone else said, its a fine, not a price. A price indicates it can be bought as often as one wants as long as they have the money. A fine is a punishment, and after so many fines, the perpetrator should lose all privileges for the future. Its a societal thing, not a monetary thing. We, the public, don't tolerate individuals breaking the rules, and the consequences we have decided on need to reflect our seriousness. 

Let me pose this question: if someone breaks into your home to steal a $50 pair of shoes, are you any less inclined to shoot his backside dead than if he broke in to steal a $2000 computer or TV? Do you stop him to ask before you decide how to handle it? "Excuse me sir, but I need to know what you are trying to steal so I can decide whether to shoot you or not." I don't care what he broke in to steal, and I'm not about to find out before I mete out justice and pop him! 

I understand this is an extreme example, but the message is the same: Do we as a society need to tolerate theft? That's really what poaching is about- stealing public resources. Luckily for the accused fisherman, he's getting due process.


----------



## tye dye twins

Look at the quoted material when I said "stupid fish".....It is realated to the Grandma stuff that keeps showing up! Get real, you really think I am for grandma beatings? You are comparing apples to oragnges here, please knock it off.
I guess all my fishin friends must be poor cause $300 scares the piss out of them! A person who poaches no matter what the cost is obviously is going to do it anyway, thats why the DWR exists. Don't ask me why but there are just those types of folks out there. I am not condoning the act of poaching and I personally follow the rules to the letter of the law.


----------



## 1BandMan

The mentality and ethical values and I guess overall intelligents of some people are completely amazing.

There's times I don't know whether to laugh or cry sometimes when people do and say the things they do.

There are these type of discussions and then some of the same people who justify poor behavior will inevitably ask, "Why are there so many laws?" and "Why do we have to make new laws, we should enforce the ones we have rather than making new ones." 

I guess my answer is: The same reason manufactures of chain saws have to put warnings on the box saying "Do not attempt to pick your nose with this device.. While it's in operation or otherwise" 

Be careful out there in your fishing adventures folks........they do live amoung us.


----------



## quakeycrazy

I really enjoyed his mini rant on BFT when he claimed that he "allegedly" caught that fish he was posing with. I will leave it to the court to convict but I do have to say things do not look good for his hunting or fishing future in Utah and many other states as well.


----------



## Grandpa D

What is a fish worth?
Tye Dye Twin can answer this question.
How much was your twins fish? [Fines]


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## Tylert

I'm going to stay out of this post and the person that commited the crime will do his time for breaking the law. Lets all just relax and do some good fishing! after all isn't this what this forum is all about?


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## flyguy7

Here's how I see it: I don't know the facts so I can't judge. I do have a problem with those.who blatantly break the law and think they are entitled to more than everyone else. But in the grand scheme of things I think that poatching fish is a drop in the bucket in regards to the effects on fish compared with poor fisheries managment, loss of habitat, dewatering streams, etc.. These are the true enemies, with a much more harmful impact than keeping over a limit. A guy who keeps a couple illegal fish can get jail time, yet golf course owners and farmers can LEGALLY completely de-water a stream with wild fish populations. I've got a big problem with that.


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## flyguy7

And 1bandman, you are so far up in the clouds on your high horse I think you have lost sight of reality. Comparing this to murdering old ladies for social security checks is out of line. That is not up for debate.


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## 1BandMan

flyguy7 said:


> And 1bandman, you are so far up in the clouds on your high horse I think you have lost sight. Comparing this to murdering old ladies for social security checks is out of line. That is not up for debate.


You know, I wouldn't be so sure about that. From some of the many comments on here condoning things, I'm not sure that if it wasn't *obviously* illegal and or wrong that some those same folks wouldn't be bashing grandma's Monday through Friday and poaching on Saturday and Sunday. Yes an extreme example, but I'm about 3/4 serious.

It is strangely uncertain if these folks understand the simple concepts of ethics, values, good judgement and most important........... the differences of right and wrong. Do you happen to be in the this camp too????? Are there folks more wrong than others?

Have I broken the law? Yes. But I find it disturbing to hear people twist, deflect, minimize and refuse to take responsiblity. Some folks on here need to grow a pair and quit sounding like little bitches. Again.....if the dude gets lit up, he gets lit up. If he is exhonerated, he's exhonerated. Bashing isn't appropriate but neither is condoning poor behavior.


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## Huge29

Well said 1Bandman! Don't expect everyone to follow logic without stick figures and cartoon characters acting it out.


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## tye dye twins

Grandpa D said:


> What is a fish worth?
> Tye Dye Twin can answer this question.
> How much was your twins fish? [Fines]


1 rainbow = $142. Concealing the catch (lying about how many)= $157. The fact that the undercover detective let him fish out the rest the day = priceless!

That is what the money vaule for 1 poaching rainbow trout at Currant Creek Res. and Strawberry Res. Some may see that as worth it but trust me it aint....especially when you fish as much as we do. If more people knew this I would say that they would re-consider the idea of poaching a fish. Nothing wrong with eduacting people, but some of you can never be convinced of that.

1Bandman, I guess your getting into heaven in your perfectly white sheets....you take things to the fullest extreme and then some. Go join some "minute men" division for poachers and log off already!


----------



## Huge29

tye dye twins said:


> 1Bandman, I guess your getting into heaven in your perfectly white sheets....you take things to the fullest extreme and then some. Go join some "minute men" division for poachers and log off already!


Time for deep breath twin! I don't hear him preaching or attacking, but clearly a statement about principal, exactly what this conversation is about. I strongly disagree with your discounting of breaking the law.


----------



## tye dye twins

Huge29 said:


> tye dye twins said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1Bandman, I guess your getting into heaven in your perfectly white sheets....you take things to the fullest extreme and then some. Go join some "minute men" division for poachers and log off already!
> 
> 
> 
> Time for deep breath twin! I don't hear him preaching or attacking, but clearly a statement about principal, exactly what this conversation is about. I strongly disagree with your discounting of breaking the law.
Click to expand...

Ya what about this "grow a pair" comment and "little bitches". Getting sick of the grandma stuff. I guess you would beat up a old lady if SHE WERE ACTUALLY A FISH! Apples and oranges 1bandman. I never discounted laws being broken just the whole putting people on the cross everytime a rule get violated out there. Do these people act this way out in the field or is this built up agression from all the times they looked the other way? I think I am going to stay away from the general fish and questions till this gets locked up. Fish on!


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## .45

Hey Chris.....

I'd like to wish you good luck on this, I hope you will be able to clear up this mess and re-join the fishing community. I'm sure you will. 
I guess all there is left to do now is grab the bull by the tail and face the situation. It's a tough would brother....

Good Luck!!


----------



## trout bum

I dont know the guy and I didnt even take the time to read the story. But after reading all the posts on this topic it amazes me how many people used the "its just a fish" line to justify it. Isnt enjoying and protecting fish and there habitat the reason this forum and all of us who participate on it are here?

Tye Dye, you are throwing a decent reputation(as far as I can see from your past posts) down the ****ter. Its hard to get it back bro.

T.B


----------



## HOGAN

Try to stay focused people. We are talking about a guy that was able to obtain a fishing licience and fish leagally, and let it lapse. It could happen to anyone. He has a past, yes, but the charge is fishing on an expired licience, everything else is crap. He paid up for what he did in the past, I too would like to wish Chris the best of luck, he is going to get punished for this, which he should be but really he did not bash in any old ladies brains, just caught a nice fish then released it for someone else to catch another day. No need for a lynching.


----------



## utahgolf

tye dye, you are a fish nut and obviously love it. I just have one question I didn't really understand from an earlier post. you said your twin got tiger fever and caught his biggest tiger ever and that is the reason he wanted to keep the extra fish. my question is why would he want to keep it? he has a limit of some decent size eating fish and hooks into a nice tiger trout and feels he has to kill it? wouldn't he rather want to take a nice pic and throw him back so he's swimmin around in there so some other lucky guy or possibly you could catch him again instead of having its skeleton in the garbage can? I just don't understand why his biggest fish had to be kept and killed to justify the reasoning behind keeping over his limit? sometimes a camera phone and not a skillet can be used. those big fighting fish are too much fun to catch and they're not as tasty as the little ones  anyways, happy fishing to everyone, we have all made mistakes. I was playing in the MWC golf tourny back in college in oregon. rivers like crazy! well one of the golf course guys took us out on a section of the river on the course to throw a few flies. I had no license and in a different state. and wouldn't you know it, here comes a conservation officer hopping the fence and walking over to us on the course. my heart sank cause I knew what was about to happen. 500 dollars later!!!! they definitely take their fish seriously in oregon but I guess that's why it's a great fishery.


----------



## flyguy7

So according to your logic Huge and 1bandman someone speeding is the same as vehicular manslaughter, someone smoking pot is the same as a drug lord distributing tons of coke, jaywalking is the same as carjacking? I could go on and on. Breaking laws protecting wildlife is a serious matter and should be punished. But do not put it in the same class as murder. That's an asinine point of vew.
Like I said before, we live in a state where it is LEGAL to sweater a stream, killing off the entire population of thousands of fish to run sprinklers in the middle of thehottest part of the day.

Well put, .45


----------



## martymcfly73

Riverrat77 said:


> Who cares if PBH made the post to embarrass the angler? He should be embarrassed... because its a bad reflection on sportsmen as a whole and as recent as last weekend some guys were bragging on this guy to me... and I'm embarrassed for them, although its not their fault. Yet another one of our "awesome" guys who winds up getting busted for something stupid.... seriously, our game laws aren't that complicated. :roll:


I actually agree w/you on this one RR77. They aren't that complicated. Except if you ask the Tye Dye twins. Ignorance of the law isn't a defense to breaking it. Any bets on tye dyex2 getting cited again by the end of the year? From reading their posts it seems as though they are trying to find ways to "skirt" the regs.


----------



## 2fishon

I hope everything works out for you Chris. Look on the bright side, you'll have more time to scout. Don't let it get you down too much. Live and learn.


----------



## brookieguy1

tye dye twins said:


> [quote="Grandpa D":6h6sqwgo]What is a fish worth?
> Tye Dye Twin can answer this question.
> How much was your twins fish? [Fines]


1 rainbow = $142. Concealing the catch (lying about how many)= $157. The fact that the undercover detective let him fish out the rest the day = priceless!

That is what the money vaule for 1 poaching rainbow trout at Currant Creek Res. and Strawberry Res. Some may see that as worth it but trust me it aint....especially when you fish as much as we do. If more people knew this I would say that they would re-consider the idea of poaching a fish. Nothing wrong with eduacting people, but some of you can never be convinced of that.

1Bandman, I guess your getting into heaven in your perfectly white sheets....you take things to the fullest extreme and then some. Go join some "minute men" division for poachers and log off already![/quote:6h6sqwgo]
Woahhhh guys. You hairfarmers seam like good kids but you better watch your sassin'. Minutemen for poaching? Heck ya where do I sign up. Just as worthy of a cause as the border patrol if you ask me, or about any other true sportsman that cares about our resources.


----------



## BrookTroutKid

Wow glad you all are so quick to jump on someone here, Very few of you actually know Chris but I guess thats alright since apparently you are all the official internet judge jury and executioners. Some of you need to get off your computers go outside and fish or do something besides belittle people you don't know know and/or will ever know. Will I post reports here anymore? Dont think so.


----------



## Dodger

BrookTroutKid said:


> Wow glad you all are so quick to jump on someone here, Very few of you actually know Chris but I guess thats alright since apparently you are all the official internet judge jury and executioners. Some of you need to get off your computers go outside and fish or do something besides belittle people you don't know know and/or will ever know. Will I post reports here anymore? Dont think so.


BTK - Why does it matter if we know him or not? Do you think a jury would know him? No. I think many here have looked at the evidence that poaching has occurred, which looks compelling.

He may be a great guy, he probably is. But it looks like he made a mistake that cannot be excused. But, even if he is convicted, I can't speak for others, but I'd be ready to forgive and forget if he squares himself with the law.

If you want to punish the people here by not sharing reports for condemning poaching, in broad terms, that is your right. I understand that you seem to be standing up for a friend, which is commendable on your part. But, you might stand up for him best by encouraging him to get square with the law, mount a vigorous defense and be found innocent, or pay the fine/accept the punishment.

I hope you'll reconsider.

Happy Birthday, by the way.


----------



## Huge29

Dodger said:


> BrookTroutKid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow glad you all are so quick to jump on someone here, Very few of you actually know Chris but I guess thats alright since apparently you are all the official internet judge jury and executioners. Some of you need to get off your computers go outside and fish or do something besides belittle people you don't know know and/or will ever know. Will I post reports here anymore? Dont think so.
> 
> 
> 
> BTK - Why does it matter if we know him or not? Do you think a jury would know him? No. I think many here have looked at the evidence that poaching has occurred, which looks compelling.
Click to expand...

Dang you Dodger, beat me to it! I am sure that they taught you in law school how it is better to get jurors and judges who are friends with the defendant? If I remember correctly, that is why lady justice has a blindfold on to be blind to the facts and base your decision of justice based on you knowing his true intentions regardless of what really happened. :mrgreen:


----------



## Dodger

Huge29 said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dang you Dodger, beat me to it! I am sure that they taught you in law school how it is better to get jurors and judges who are friends with the defendant? If I remember correctly, that is why lady justice has a blindfold on to be blind to the facts and base your decision of justice based on you knowing his true intentions regardless of what really happened. :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

I must have missed that class. Can I get your notes? :lol:


----------



## tye dye twins

It has ben nice to camp and not read this for a while. Well here are my responses.....

Utahgolf - He kept the tiger for eating and the fact that it was his biggest fish ever. Fishing is a predatory action no matter how you look at it. Fish taste good too! I agree though the older/bigger ones seem to be full of pee(p***) and viniger, the smaller the tastier. $500 is steep! I will be sure to buy a licence before touching a rod out there.



martymcfly73 said:


> Riverrat77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who cares if PBH made the post to embarrass the angler? He should be embarrassed... because its a bad reflection on sportsmen as a whole and as recent as last weekend some guys were bragging on this guy to me... and I'm embarrassed for them, although its not their fault. Yet another one of our "awesome" guys who winds up getting busted for something stupid.... seriously, our game laws aren't that complicated. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> I actually agree w/you on this one RR77. They aren't that complicated. Except if you ask the Tye Dye twins. Ignorance of the law isn't a defense to breaking it. Any bets on tye dyex2 getting cited again by the end of the year? From reading their posts it seems as though they are trying to find ways to "skirt" the regs.
Click to expand...




trout bum said:


> I dont know the guy and I didnt even take the time to read the story. But after reading all the posts on this topic it amazes me how many people used the "its just a fish" line to justify it. Isnt enjoying and protecting fish and there habitat the reason this forum and all of us who participate on it are here?
> 
> Tye Dye, you are throwing a decent reputation(as far as I can see from your past posts) down the **** Its hard to get it back bro.
> 
> T.B


 Yep true that, although he is my "evil twin"! :twisted:

So far I can't find any loopholes in the system though. No more tickets for us this year, wanna bet. I will bet you $300 big ones. If you don't pay up I will take satisfaction in catching 300 fish within a calander year of the ticket.

If you think I really care what/how you feel about my posts, you are 1 guy that will not have some of the more detailed info on this fourm, your loss pal. I look at the fisherman not the "pollitical" affiliation of every member on the site. Oh yeah who took it away again?

Oh yeah and Brookieguy1 I guess you feel I am the only one sassin...well what are you going to do, stop me from fishing?


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## nate1031

This was the dumbest thread ever. Ever.


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## wyogoob

BrookTroutKid said:


> Wow glad you all are so quick to jump on someone here, Very few of you actually know Chris but I guess thats alright since apparently you are all the official internet judge jury and executioners. Some of you need to get off your computers go outside and fish or do something besides belittle people you don't know know and/or will ever know. Will I post reports here anymore? Dont think so.


I still love ya BTK.


----------



## wyogoob

brookieguy1 said:


> .................. Woahhhh guys. You hairfarmers seam like good kids but you better watch your sassin'. Minutemen for poaching? Heck ya where do I sign up. Just as worthy of a cause as the border patrol if you ask me, or about any other true sportsman that cares about our resources.


"hairfarmers" What is a "hairfarmer"?

Should it be hyphenated, like in "hair-farmer"?


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## Riverrat77

BrookTroutKid said:


> Wow glad you all are so quick to jump on someone here, Very few of you actually know Chris but I guess thats alright since apparently you are all the official internet judge jury and executioners. Some of you need to get off your computers go outside and fish or do something besides belittle people you don't know know and/or will ever know. Will I post reports here anymore? Dont think so.


BTK, the law applies to everyone, not just people we know or think are "good guys". Its a big state...impossible to know everyone that hunts and fishes but when an officer of the law posts an information sheet explaining the violations, thats good enough for me, whether it was a family member of mine or some guy I'd only heard about via word of mouth. This whole "good ol boy" exemption to breaking the law is ridiculous and seems to be trotted out any time somebody a bunch of folks know gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar. :?


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## blackdog

I don't get why everyone is jumping this guys case. Hasn't everyone poached a trophy buck and vandalized DWR property? What a POS.


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## wyoming2utah

As long as I can remember, I have been a huge baseball fan. As a kid, I remember idolizing Pete Rose because of how hard he played the game and because of how good he was. When the Pete Rose scandal hit, I was disappointed big time. And, as the years went and Pete Rose remained banned from baseball, my disappoint in Pete Rose the man remained even though my love of Pete Rose the player will never change. When Peter Rose finally admitted guilt in his book, my disappoint did not change but, in fact grew...because it did not seem genuine and to be only issued for the hopes of making money. I have hoped over the years that Pete Rose will someday face the seriousness of his mistakes, admit responsibility genuinely and with some shame, and be the man I thought he was when I was a kid. I don't know if it will ever happen, but I hope it does.

These days other major league ball players have met the same kind of disappointment with many fans for other reasons vastly different than Pete's but ultimately the same. Barry Bonds' legacy has forever been tarnished as has Roger Clemens', Mark Mcgwire's, and others. The evidence has mounted against these individuals and it seems likely that they are guilty to some extent of using PHDs. I wish that these individuals--like Arod and Jason Giambi, and Andy Pettite among others--would come forward admit guilt and face the consequences like men. Some still hold out that glimmer of hope that they are really innocent...but, for me, that glimmer has faded among all the evidence.

Chris is, for me, similar to these major league ball players. He is in a position where he can either face consequences of his actions like a man and move forward with a better understanding of the law and with a better appreciation of the seriousness of his actions, or he can ultimately lose credibility like Peter Rose, Barry Bonds, and Mark McGwire. There are some that are asking that people like me who do not know Chris to back off and let due process determine his guilt or innocence. But, for me, the facts are simple: 1) he was fishing without a legal license--which is poaching in my mind 2) he purchased a combination license under suspension 3) he purchased bonus points for hunting under suspension and 4) he has previously already been convicted of hunting related crimes and has shown a brazen attitude towards the law. Sorry, but he is guilty of these things...we know this.

I would have no problem forgiving and forgetting these crimes if he would only stand up to them and face the consequences and take responsibility for his actions...so far, he has proven to be unwilling to do this. So, I think we as anglers and as sportsmen have every right to hold his character in the lowest regards....

...on the flip side, not long ago, the DWR director Jim Karpowitz also broke a hunting law. Upon realizing his mistake, how did he confront the situation? I can respect someone and forgive them when they accept responsibility...
http://www.americanhunter.org/articles/ ... -citation/


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## flyguy7

Well put, wyo.

I think the problem people are having with you Tye dye is that you say you will abide by the laws purely not to get busted and fined. Not because it is morally wrong to keep fish in a slot, but purely because it is expensive. That's not a good take because you are really saying that if you knew you would get away with it, you'd do it in a heartbeat. Not cool and its unfortunate and sad that you don't see that...


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## Guest

Hi everyone! proud to be the member of this great community !! i am vivian from florida ,Ak,Anchorage,nice to meet you,hope to know more about you.......


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## Huge29

Welcome Vivian, we love spammers here. 
What do you think about this incident?


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## wyogoob

Welcome Vivian.

Feeling OK? You look a little pale.


----------



## jahan

BrookTroutKid said:


> Wow glad you all are so quick to jump on someone here, Very few of you actually know Chris but I guess thats alright since apparently you are all the official internet judge jury and executioners. Some of you need to get off your computers go outside and fish or do something besides belittle people you don't know know and/or will ever know. Will I post reports here anymore? Dont think so.


I was giving him the benefit of doubt and then he got lippy with me on another forum, started talking sh*t about a service member and wanting to fight people. He proceeded to talk about how he was a college football player and was tough. That is when I lost respect, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and I still am on the latest charges, but when he started coming at me that is when I got upset. He is a great fisherman, I will give him credit for that, but it starts to make you wonder about all those nice fish he has caught. Time will tell and I will let the court judge him for his alleged crimes. :mrgreen:

[attachment=0:397ff5f6]birds_with_arms995.jpg[/attachment:397ff5f6]

P.S. This picture is not of me, I am like a little stick figure guy.


----------



## Catherder

wyogoob said:


> Welcome Vivian.
> 
> Feeling OK? You look a little pale.


I bet that Vivian supports poaching. :x



jahan said:


> was giving him the benefit of doubt and then he got lippy with me on another forum, started talking sh*t about a service member and wanting to fight people. He proceeded to talk about how he was a college football player and was tough.


Good grief, on how many forums has this melodrama been carried out?


----------



## jahan

Catherder said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> 
> was giving him the benefit of doubt and then he got lippy with me on another forum, started talking sh*t about a service member and wanting to fight people. He proceeded to talk about how he was a college football player and was tough.
> 
> 
> 
> Good grief, on how many forums has this melodrama been carried out?
Click to expand...

Too many. 8)


----------



## HOGAN

Ok so let me get this staight, if you are unaware that your fishing licience is expired and still fish it is the same as sticking a needle in your ass to hit the ball farther? 

I am sure he will take it like a man in time. I am sure he will take it a lot of ways, embarressed, ashamed, like a man, regret, angry, all at different times, but he will get through it fine. I am about like Jahan, and will agree with whatever is handed down to him, he will serve his punishment and it will be a clean slate. Not what about the deer you shot a day after the season ended, or didn't you jay walk last summer, nothing, a clean slate.


----------



## Flyfish4thrills

This particular instance is just a symptom of a much larger disease. While what was done is blatantly wrong, what bothers me far more is that we aren't discussing the poaching that happens every day. It utterly disgusts me with how common it is. On almost EVERY fishing day that I enjoy, I see someone break the law. Unfortunately, many of the places I fish don't have cell coverage. Here are a few examples: I observed a boat on Panguitch Lake with 2 men keep every single fish they caught. This was when bows were still in the slot. On that same day, 95% of the fish caught by my party were in the slot. This duo kept everything. They didn't even bother to measure. They just netted them and threw them in the boat and immediately went back to fishing. On another trip I observed people fishing the inlet to Paragonah res. during the restricted spawning period. On another trip I observed 2 - 3 families fishing with bait at Manning Meadows (afl only). The examples go on and on. Besides not having cell coverage in these areas, I think many people question the value of calling it in when possible. How long will it take for an officer to respond? Will it be my word against their's? How will the person I am turning in respond? Will they retaliate later? etc, etc. Fines are simply not large enough, punishment (when convicted) is not widely publicized, and there aren't enough officers to enforce the law.

It is very dissapointing that so so many people have a disregard for the property of others, minimize the importance of the law and the gravity of the infraction in their minds, thinking they are above the law, thinking the Guv'mnt owes them. I have heard over my lifetime some people voice the idea that they don't need a license, they deserve to keep every single fish they catch, and they can fish with bait on an afl-only lake. Their reasoning is that the guv'mnt owes them already due to high taxation, they served in the military, etc. They in turn teach this attitude to their children. It is like a similar problem I read on an unrelated message board. One person posted the idea and then many agreed that it is ok to steal from the government and big businesses, because they "steal" from "us". The same attitude is held with the silent majority on downloading music, movies, files, etc. illegally off the internet. Oh, I guess that is ok, since it isn't a fish.  It's the same thing. Except that getting caught with that "fish" can cost $1200 - $2400 per infraction if you settle out of court. 

This attitude extends to bucket biologist. I never replied to a post here about Panguitch lake. I think it being a truly great fishery is a hopeless cause. It will be full of chubs again soon because of people who feel they are above the law. (And the locals didn't want to treat it. They would rather have 99% chubs than lose any business. You can depend on their wise judgements. lol.) And why do the Lakers at Fish Lake have to eat the small bows and perch? Because someone who thought of themselves as above the law decided to illegally dump in perch which displaced their natural forage of utah chubs. I wonder how many people that fish actually ever read the regs? It is amazing how many adults still think that their young children need to fish off of their parent's license. How many years ago was that law changed? 

I'm just rambling now, but I'm sick and tired of people's ignorance, apathy and pride. Most of us on these boards are the few that are educated and care (I hope). The unwashed masses are the problem. I guess the rub is that someone that reads these boards, frequents them, shows off trophy catches, and poses as an outdoorsman should be holding up the banner of being a true sportsman, instead of doing the dirty deeds.

So what can we do to address the the overall, giant iceberg hiding under the surface?

Off my soapbox now. lol


----------



## JCR

I agree that poaching is wrong and those who do it, should be punished. I do not know this Chris guy in anyway, but I do think it's slightly odd that he has gotten more attention than he deserves. It's already at 13 pages on just one person. He obviously is not bright enough to know the reasons behind the DWR rules and laws in place to protect wildlife, or he would have followed them. You cannot fix Stupid. You cannot talk sense into Stupid. The only thing we can hope for is NOT that he "mans" up like many put it, but that he just strive to be a better person. I don't think it really matters what any of us say as far as making Chris feel shame or regret. That's something he has to come to on his own. Only thing we can do is personally not poach, report those we see doing it, and continue on making positive contributions to society.


----------



## HOGAN

Flyfish4thrills said:


> This particular instance is just a symptom of a much larger disease. While what was done is blatantly wrong, what bothers me far more is that we aren't discussing the poaching that happens every day. It utterly disgusts me with how common it is. On almost EVERY fishing day that I enjoy, I see someone break the law. Unfortunately, many of the places I fish don't have cell coverage. Here are a few examples: I observed a boat on Panguitch Lake with 2 men keep every single fish they caught. This was when bows were still in the slot. On that same day, 95% of the fish caught by my party were in the slot. This duo kept everything. They didn't even bother to measure. They just netted them and threw them in the boat and immediately went back to fishing. On another trip I observed people fishing the inlet to Paragonah res. during the restricted spawning period. On another trip I observed 2 - 3 families fishing with bait at Manning Meadows (afl only). The examples go on and on. Besides not having cell coverage in these areas, I think many people question the value of calling it in when possible. How long will it take for an officer to respond? Will it be my word against their's? How will the person I am turning in respond? Will they retaliate later? etc, etc. Fines are simply not large enough, punishment (when convicted) is not widely publicized, and there aren't enough officers to enforce the law.
> 
> It is very dissapointing that so so many people have a disregard for the property of others, minimize the importance of the law and the gravity of the infraction in their minds, thinking they are above the law, thinking the Guv'mnt owes them. I have heard over my lifetime some people voice the idea that they don't need a license, they deserve to keep every single fish they catch, and they can fish with bait on an afl-only lake. Their reasoning is that the guv'mnt owes them already due to high taxation, they served in the military, etc. They in turn teach this attitude to their children. It is like a similar problem I read on an unrelated message board. One person posted the idea and then many agreed that it is ok to steal from the government and big businesses, because they "steal" from "us". The same attitude is held with the silent majority on downloading music, movies, files, etc. illegally off the internet. Oh, I guess that is ok, since it isn't a fish.  It's the same thing. Except that getting caught with that "fish" can cost $1200 - $2400 per infraction if you settle out of court.
> 
> This attitude extends to bucket biologist. I never replied to a post here about Panguitch lake. I think it being a truly great fishery is a hopeless cause. It will be full of chubs again soon because of people who feel they are above the law. (And the locals didn't want to treat it. They would rather have 99% chubs than lose any business. You can depend on their wise judgements. lol.) And why do the Lakers at Fish Lake have to eat the small bows and perch? Because someone who thought of themselves as above the law decided to illegally dump in perch which displaced their natural forage of utah chubs. I wonder how many people that fish actually ever read the regs? It is amazing how many adults still think that their young children need to fish off of their parent's license. How many years ago was that law changed?
> 
> I'm just rambling now, but I'm sick and tired of people's ignorance, apathy and pride. Most of us on these boards are the few that are educated and care (I hope). The unwashed masses are the problem. I guess the rub is that someone that reads these boards, frequents them, shows off trophy catches, and poses as an outdoorsman should be holding up the banner of being a true sportsman, instead of doing the dirty deeds.
> 
> So what can we do to address the the overall, giant iceberg hiding under the surface?
> 
> Off my soapbox now. lol





JCR said:


> I agree that poaching is wrong and those who do it, should be punished. I do not know this Chris guy in anyway, but I do think it's slightly odd that he has gotten more attention than he deserves. It's already at 13 pages on just one person. He obviously is not bright enough to know the reasons behind the DWR rules and laws in place to protect wildlife, or he would have followed them. You cannot fix Stupid. You cannot talk sense into Stupid. The only thing we can hope for is NOT that he "mans" up like many put it, but that he just strive to be a better person. I don't think it really matters what any of us say as far as making Chris feel shame or regret. That's something he has to come to on his own. Only thing we can do is personally not poach, report those we see doing it, and continue on making positive contributions to society.


I could not agree or say it any better, with the 2 above posts. This is what I have been trying to say from the start, there are MANY more fish to fry than some dumb kid that let his liceince expire and was unaware. Does not give him a pass but way too much noise being made over something this petty.


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## PBH

HOGAN said:


> Ok so let me get this staight, if you are unaware that your fishing licience is expired and still fish it is the same as sticking a needle in **** hit the ball farther?
> 
> e.


Hogan-- you don't get it. He purchased a combination hunting/ fishing license when he legally was unallowed to do so (due to previous violations). Purchasing this license was a crime in itself. Why did he purchase it? Like Barry Bonds, I assume because he thought he could get away with it. Don't you see anything wrong with this? His infractions are more than simply being "unaware that your _Fishing_ license is expired". His _Illegally_ purchased combination license was expired. That's a double-whammy.

His actions have shown a pattern. This is something we should all be aware of. Chris was one of us. I think I'd wan't to be aware of patterns of bad behavior when going fishing with "friends" I make on fishing forums. I'd hate to have an issue arise because I went fishing with someone I assumed followed the rules.

I wish Chris the best. I hope he can get things back inline with the rules regulations of this state. I hope that in the end this issue turns him into someone that we, as an angling community, can once again look up to as great fisherman. He has some work to do, in my eyes. But he has the opportunity to make things right. The only thing left now is to see if he chooses to accept the opportunity, or turn his back and leave any integrity he may have had behind.

Aloha and mahalo.


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## 1morecast

I have alot of respect for everyone here and ever since I joined the forum, there have been so many helpful and friendly members. Ive learned so much from everyone here, I hope we can continue on and not burn bridges over this. Fish on!!! The weather is upon us.

Mahalo!


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## HOGAN

That I can accept PBH. I have never met you or Chris, nor your brother for that matter, but know that all 3 of you guys are stand up guys. Without qustion. I will be the first to admit that I have work to do. I know Chris has work to do. And I can even applaude your latest post along with Stew's. It was the first one that bothered me. Like I said, he is going to pay for the upgrade on the licience and let it lapse, but no need to drag his name through the mud more than it all ready has, no need. If it were you I would do the same. I am certain he is embarressed enough as it is, he will make things right. And he will have a clean slate after with me. I have a lot of respect for you and your brother, and when you threw another guy I have repect for under the bus, another long time forum member who has made a mistake, I had to say something. No hard feelings and know we may not agree with what should have been done or what should not have been done it will not change anything with anyone. I just think this was a little much for what has happened. The law will take its couse and it is what it is. Water under the bridge.


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## Christopher30

Are we getting bored yet? Holy **** i need a twitter account so everyone can follow every step of my life. I hear the noise about remorse and shame that i'm supposed to feel for having my head up my ass for not renewing a license, but honestly the he should be shot and hung comments, thats what drive people to make hurtful moves to utahs wildlife.....think about it.... The good news is, we're dealing with citations here and not felony charges, and yes i have been on the water the last few weeks and will be back on the water chasing records of all varieties forever....


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## sawsman

Christopher30 said:


> The good news is, we're dealing with citations here and not felony charges...


Good news? :roll:

Still dont make it right. Hopfully you can learn something from all of this. It really sounds like you dont care..

Good luck chasing those records.... forever.


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## blackdog

Christopher30 said:


> but honestly the he should be shot and hung comments, thats what drive people to make hurtful moves to utahs wildlife.....think about it....


Is that why you poached that buck and vandalized DWR property? What a ****** Utard.........Forever.


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## Huge29

Christopher30 said:


> The good news is, we're dealing with citations here and not felony charges, and yes i have been on the water the last few weeks and will be back on the water chasing records of all varieties forever....


Does this mean that you don't care about the law or that your citation does not restrict you from now buying a valid non combination license?
You must admit the irony of your signature line; you submitted the photo used as evidence?


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## doody

Wow, I was hoping he would post up but I actually expected a bit of humility, not this condescending drivle that proves his true colors.

If he's been cited, does that temporarily prevent him from buying a legal license until the case is resolved?


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## doody

Christopher30 said:


> Are we getting bored yet? Holy **** i need a twitter account so everyone can follow every step of my life. I hear the noise about remorse and shame that i'm supposed to feel for having my head up **** not renewing a license, but honestly the he should be shot and hung comments, thats what drive people to make hurtful moves to utahs wildlife.....think about it.... The good news is, we're dealing with citations here and not felony charges, and yes i have been on the water the last few weeks and will be back on the water chasing records of all varieties forever....


quoted for posterity sake, or maybe another investigation!!


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## doody

and chris, why is it so hard for your to follow the rules?


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## nate1031

christopher30 = *edited by Moderator*


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## .45

nate1031 said:


> christopher30 = *edited by Moderator*


What the hell did you edit this for?

If you're going to continue to 'edit', why not just shut the damned thing down? This thread has run it's course, it has accomplished exactly what the original poster was after. In my opinion, there is absolutely no need to run this further into the ground.


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## Grandpa D

I don't know who or why Nate1031 was edited but it would only get edited if it wasn't within the forum rules.
We don't like to lock threads and won't lock them unless it becomes necessary.
I agree that this thing has run it's course and is getting old but that isn't a reason to lock it.
If we just quit posting, it will go away.


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## Dodger

Christopher30 said:


> but honestly the he should be shot and hung comments, thats what drive people to make hurtful moves to utahs wildlife.....think about it....


What does that mean?

Because it sounds like you are saying that other people make poachers poach. And that is even lame for a 3rd grade excuse.


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## 1BandMan

Dodger said:


> Christopher30 said:
> 
> 
> 
> but honestly the he should be shot and hung comments, thats what drive people to make hurtful moves to utahs wildlife.....think about it....
> 
> 
> 
> What does that mean?
> 
> Because it sounds like you are saying that other people make poachers poach. And that is even lame for a 3rd grade excuse.
Click to expand...

Yup, and people were questioning my comparisons. People, for some reason or another can justify just about* anything *.
I've unfortunately learned to never underestimate the positives and negatives in people. 
Christopher30 definitely makes me, and should make others nervous.
Another example from the mouth of the person himself (unless he's like former congressman Weiner and his account has been hacked) of justification for what he did and why its OK and going to be OK for him to do what he did. 
It is also another reason why the DWR and possibly other agencies need to keep an eye on this guy and others like him..for a long time or until conclusion.

I guarantee you..........It's not "just a fish."


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## gitterdone81

I think Nate made a joke but rather than Christopher30=_____________, he said = EDITED BY MODERATOR. We all know that Moderators won't edit "nice upstanding citizen, who respects natural resources" but they will edit %&[email protected]#$. I thought it was funny, and wish that I had thought of it.


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## wyogoob

gitterdone81 said:


> I think Nate made a joke but rather than Christopher30=_____________, he said = EDITED BY MODERATOR. We all know that Moderators won't edit "nice upstanding citizen, who respects natural resources" but they will edit %&[email protected]#$. I thought it was funny, and wish that I had thought of it.


I edited the post. The comment was inappropriate name-calling and against the Forum rules.

The Moderators have been following, and even debating, the value of this thread closely. I voted to keep this thread alive and from what I'm reading lately I have second thoughts.


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## doody

Please do not lock or delete this thread. Just look at how many views this topic has had and you can see that this is a great medium to spread information. This is and will be followed closely and can serve as a deterrent to future poaching. I regret my part in the name calling but I'm sure we all understand how this can infuriate anglers who love this state, care about our resources, are passionate about our waters, and who disavow this behavior---understandably myself and others were heated but with the evidence presented I feel we are justified in this. I think its been relatively civil the last few pages. I think this topic should continue to be at the top of the page. Can I get some bump'in luv?


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## bwhntr

All I can offer to this discussion is some of my thoughts as it applies to my personal experiences. I don't know the gentleman in question or anything of the circumstances. I do know a little something about mistakes, paying for them, and the internet. Reading through some of the posts on here take me back to another time.

My first thoughts are to Chris. Don't respond to anything on here. As much as you want to defend yourself you have no obligation to explain yourself anywhere here on the internet. Your first priority is to take care of yourself and get this situation taken care of and your life on track. There is not one person on here that you owe anything to.

Having said that I have thoughts that go out to the rest of us. Nobody likes a poacher. We can all agree to that. It doesn't matter the situation it is easy to sit back and play "armchair quarterback" and pass judgement on other people who may have made a mistake. We have a system in place for these circumstances. Its not perfect, but it is the best in the world. I have made mistakes in my past. I have been flamed on the forums for what others assumed to be facts. Nobody here really knows the facts, circumstances, or any real knowledge of the incident. Yet, it seems ok to put this persons name on the internet and play judge and jury. Let the system take care of it, let him take his punishment (if any) and let him move on with his life accordingly. Whatever mistakes he is accused of, if found guilty, will be fined and punished. Let the due process take its course.


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## Fishrmn

bwhntr said:


> There is not one person on here that you owe anything to.


I tend to disagree with that, at least _*if*_ he is found guilty. I think he owes an apology to *EVERY* sportsman or woman in the state.

Fishrmn


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## flyguy7

Doody, thanks for -O\__-


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## doody

Oh this horse is far fom being dead. And if it dies before a resolution is known then every angler who loves this state should jump in to help with the CPR. Just keep the beat to "stayin alive" by the beegees and remember, nobody does mouth to mouth anymore.


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## PBH

bwhntr said:


> Nobody here really knows the facts, circumstances, or any real knowledge of the incident.


Facts. Circumstances, and knowledge of the incident:


Sgt. Paul Washburn said:


> May 06, 2011
> On April 30th 2011, Utah Division of Wildlife Resources (UDWR)
> Conservation Officer Micah Evans contacted an individual fishing at
> Panguitch Lake. The male subject produced an expired combination license. He was cited for the violation.
> 
> Subsequent investigation showed that the individual was currently on
> hunting license suspension for his role in the *illegal killing of a trophy deer*
> _and_* vandalism of a UDWR trailer in 2004*. Both crimes were committed by
> the subject, _after he was issued a citation by a UDWR officer for spotlighting with a weapon in possession._
> 
> A review of UDWR licensing records showed that the individual had
> illegally purchased a combination license and applied for a bonus point for big game during the suspension period in violation of the suspension order.
> 
> Additionally, officers determined that the subject illegally captured a trophy rainbow trout in Wayne County without a valid license, resulting in a charge for Wanton Destruction of Protected Wildlife.
> 
> Ultimately, the individual was issued a citations for Wanton Destruction of Protected Wildlife-No license in *Wayne County*, a citation for Unlawful Purchase of a License and bonus point in *Iron County* and is facing a charge of Fishing Without a Valid License in *Garfield County.*
> 
> *In addition, he now faces the potential doubling of the original suspension period if found guilty of the illegal license purchase violations.*


This is much more than "just a fish", as many have said. 3 different counties. 3 different charges. All resulting from previous crimes committed by the individual. This, to me, shows a pattern of disregard for rules and regulations. Sounds like he didn't learn anything the first time. I hope he learns something this time. What's the old saying?


George Santayana said:


> Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.


 -O\__-


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## hoghunter011583

After reading through this post I just had to add my .02.

I don't expect everybody to have the same opinions as I do but to read guys defending breaking game laws is disgusting!! I'm not going to call names and go off on induviduals but to read things like " everybody has broken laws at one point" !! I can easily say I have NEVER knowingly broke a law and I do read the laws close. Giving the fact that Utah uses tax dollars to stock fish, taking a fish over the limit is like stealing money out of my pocket and everybody elses pocket!!
I'm really disgusted at how many people made excuses for breaking the law and having an attitude that it isn't that big of a deal! It is just a fish!! It is just a Deer!! That is like going and shop lifting and telling the store owner it is just 10 bucks worth of stuff!! Wow !!!!

I'm glad to see the majority of members took the laws side but pretty shocked that even 1 person would defend an obvious willfull law breaker!! Let the lawyers defend this guy!!


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## proutdoors

bwhntr is correct. Trying someone on an internet forum is bush league and shows a lack of good judgement. If/when this individual is found guilty IN A COURT OF LAW, then flame away. Until then it would be wise and prudent to be a tad more civil, and let the system play itself out!


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## bwhntr

IMO...and maybe I missed the post defending him, I have not read anywhere anyone has condoned poaching. I know that was not the intent of my previous post.

Also, just because there is a document floating around the internet does not make it factual. Again, Im not defending anyone. In my own personal experience, information tends to get skewed and even reports written by CO can be inaccurate. He maybe did everything, he might be all you are saying about him. I just feel the internet forums is not the appropriate place to pass judgement. The courts, prosecutors, lawyers, and officers have a responsibility to fulfill, and they will do so.

We are talking about a person with a family,career , and a life outside of fishing and hunting. Hopefully this mistake will not be the one event that defines him.


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## hoghunter011583

I agree we don't know what the heck happend but the guys saying things like we have all broken game laws and just some of us have the balls to admit to it are disgusting to me!! I don't care about the original guy that was accused of poaching, I'm talking about the guys saying it is just a fish. So even if he is guilty it isn't that big of a deal I guess!!


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## PBH

proutdoors said:


> If/when this individual is found guilty IN A COURT OF LAW, then flame away.


so, we're ok to flame him for his prior poaching conviction and vandalism conviction, along with the spotlighting with a weapon?



bwhntr said:


> Hopefully this mistake will not be the one event that defines him.


Which ONE event? the poaching? The vandalism? these are prior crimes. What about the current crimes of Wanton destruction, illegal purchase of a hunting license AND bonus point, and fishing without a license -- 3 different allegations. I guess I'm ok with waiting for the court to rule on the 3 current different citations, as well as the Wildlife Boards ruling on future hunting and fishing privileges.

Good luck to the individual on his current situation. His past poor choices obviously didn't teach him anything. I hope this time he learns.


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## pheaz

Holy shiz, thats getting called out on a open forum. WOW, pretty sad.
Chris I hope for the best outcome for you.


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## hoghunter011583

pheaz said:


> Holy shiz, thats getting called out on a open forum. WOW, pretty sad.
> Chris I hope for the best outcome for you.


So you don't think he should get called out on an open forum? I don't understand? I really don't understand all the support for the guy if he is a poacher, I don't know that he is. I he has been convicted of the previous crimes, why do we wish the best for him? I wish the best for him in that he falls to his knees and changes his ways and then has a nice life.


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## UWN admin

This thread has put the moderators in something of a bind. On the one hand, the forum has no tolerance for poaching or poachers. On the other hand, the forum rules are built around forum members maintaining mutual respect for each other. We've stopped other similar threads that were mostly rumor and hearsay, but this thread is about actual criminal charges, so we've let it continue. Even so, it has slipped off into something of a feeding frenzy, and we're reluctant to have the forum travel down that road.

Everyone has had a chance to have their say, so this is probably a good place to stop.


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