# LE elk butt plugg is getting worse!!



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

the spike butt plug has started to rear its ugly head. The elk comity wants to raise the elk age on several units across the state. They feel that the quality has slipped! 

The only way you can increase quality is by cutting big bull tags!!! Thus increasing the drawing wait on a Le elk tag from OIL to never!

The wildlife board wanted to implement the spike tags to keep the elk numbers under check! This is their baby! Since you cant kill from both ends I new it wouldnt be long before the wildlife board wanted to come in and take/cut your Le tags back. thus creating a bonus point butt plug like we've never seen before!

This state needs an enema
Arizona elk plan still crankes out the big bulls and give out more opertunity at just as big as bulls as utah without the lame spike tags!


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

IMO this would be the very best year to cut out the spike hunters on the LE units or at least the San Juan! :mrgreen:


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Hang in there you are getting half truth's from whoever is 
passing this along!!!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wileywapati said:


> Hang in there you are getting half truth's from whoever is
> passing this along!!!


It's coming from the actual minutes from the elk committee that you are on. I have been reading the updates after each get-together. Seem to me I 400 would fit in nicely in at least ONE meeting.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

The sad truth is the spike hunts wont affect the age class of bulls harvested for a few more years. I am sure they will work things out. 

Gordy,

Fight the good fight man! Let me know if I can help in any way.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Yeah my fine feathered tea party buddy but you don't have the minutes from last week now do ya??? I know ya don't cause I don't have the dang things yet!!

Like I said hang in there and let us hammer this out. I think you will be pretty pleased!!!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wileywapati said:


> Yeah my fine feathered tea party buddy but you don't have the minutes from last week now do ya??? I know ya don't cause I don't have the dang things yet!!
> 
> Like I said hang in there and let us hammer this out. I think you will be pretty pleased!!!


The latest email update was dated Jan 22, I await the latest updated with baited breath. 8)


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I have to say it has been a nice experience serving on the committee with Wiley. Nothing has even been set yet so nothing is getting worse. Like Wiley said, give it some time to see what really comes out of the meetings. 

That said, I would like to hear ideas on how to maintain high age classes on a few units and keep the bull cow ratios in check without a spike hunt?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> That said, I would like to hear ideas on how to maintain high age classes on a few units and keep the bull cow ratios in check without a spike hunt?


I thought Management bull tags were working, but it was never really given a chance.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Packout said:


> That said, I would like to hear ideas on how to maintain high age classes on a few units and keep the bull cow ratios in check without a spike hunt?


Management tags were never given a chance to prove their effectiveness. A higher percentage of tags going to primitive weapon holders would allow more bulls to be killed without taking a high number of older class bulls. Maybe rotating spike tags every other year, or at least a cap on the number of spike tags issued on a given LE unit. This should only be on 5-8 premium units, the rest, IMHO should be managed by bull:cow ratios NOT harvest age objectives.


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

> Packout wrote:
> That said, I would like to hear ideas on how to maintain high age classes on a few units and keep the bull cow ratios in check without a spike hunt?


I thought the managment tags where a good idea that weren't given a chance to work also.
Pro's ideas seem well thought out as well.

The biggest plug in the butt is the drawing itself. If all the elk tags were in the same drawing and you used your points if you drew a bull tag any bull, spike, management, LE all the same burn your points. How many guys put in for a LE tag and complain about quality then get a spike tag and kill the bull that could be the quality animal they seek in 7 or 8 years and not use there points. If this was put in place it would sort out the quality and oppertunity guys in a few years and the DWR could adjust the units to were the demand is based on what hunters are putting in for. Not what hunters or politictians or special interest groups are lobbying for.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

yak4fish said:


> The biggest plug in the butt is the drawing itself. If all the elk tags were in the same drawing and you used your points if you drew a bull tag any bull, *spike, management*, LE all the same burn your points.


I understand what you are trying to get at...but I think you've got a stupid idea. NOBODY wants to burn their points for a SPIKE or a MANAGEMENT bull! It just won't happen that way. The reason for the LE unit is not to shoot a spike or a management...but a big bull.... People spend lots of money and wait hundreds of years to get the big one. If people want a spike or a medium sized bull they will save their points for the big bulls and hunt he general ANY BULL UNITS. *IT IS WHAT IT IS!*

If you could put in for a management bull or a spike bull and NOT burn your points....people would go for that! :wink:


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

Bowdacious said:


> yak4fish said:
> 
> 
> > The biggest plug in the butt is the drawing itself. If all the elk tags were in the same drawing and you used your points if you drew a bull tag any bull, *spike, management*, LE all the same burn your points.
> ...


I think that's the point...that way the people that just want to kill elk can have the spike/management hunts to themselves without having to deal with competition from the guys with 10 bonus points that didn't draw and want to hunt the spike hunts as well. Creates more opportunity for the non-trophy hunter seeing as how the trophy hunter probably can/will hunt in another state anyways if he/she can't hunt here in Utah. The average joe schmoe non-trophy hunter just won't hunt that year if he can't hunt in Utah...


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

its truly depressing to see the direction that the elk hunts are going to and the
worst part is the creed involfed. from the game department tring to manage for money instead of the elk themselfs to alot of hunters who dont want to give up a thing and still have there chanch at a dream bull. i cannot even start to quess about alot of the units out there but i can speak pretty well for the oquirh/stansberry unit. i cannot even start to understand why this last year they had a spike hunt on a unit that has never at anytime been anything but a limited entry unit, for years when the permit s were kept at a around 25 permits the herd was growing and there were some dandies in the bunch. than they started a late season hunt which i dont reallly mind but there giving out a excess amount of tags, than they started hunting cows which again if permits were in line with excees animals would be ok and last year they started to hunt the spikes. folks those momma elk can only produce so many calfs and when there getten hit this hard the supply is not keeping up with the demand
on this unit the damage has gotten to the point were its indesputable, the mature bulls are just flat disappearing on winter range were we could go out and count 100 plus branch antlered bull this year its down to under 30 know i said mature bulls yes there are a some 2 and 3 year olds floating around but if anyone can show me were the heck the big bulls are holding up in numbers please tell me. there does need to be a cut in bull tags but not mature tags
if a unit cannot produce enough yearling bulls to cover the amount of mature bulls being harvest at the very least can the spike hunt for those units, if thats not enough cut back on trophy bull permits and if the herds NOT over
the herd objective cut back are stop the antlerless hunts till they are at the 
very least at management objectives. as it is i think its pretty easy to state
that from top to bottom under this currant system were over harvesting the 
elk in the state and if not corrected were gonna be back into the same fix we were in back in the 60 s and 70s. you cannot spend more than your making are your gonna wind up broke.


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

I agree on the point thing. If you take a spike tag then you use your points. A bull is a Bull is a bull. If you hunt the wasatch and kill a spike well you killed a bull. IF you draw a LE tag for wasatch you kill a bull. Either way you kill a bull. I think they should just do away with the spike hunting period.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

I love it when someone on here has a feel-good story about taking a kid hunting and then you get all the other people chime in saying "good job taking a kid hunting" or "good for you...kids are the future of hunting" and then in the very next post they make it goes to the tune of "I'm all for more any-bull units under the I400 system...but...after I draw my LE tag"...
get the heck out of here...if no one is willing to sacrifice things to get this thing rolling then the furthest it's ever gonna go is this forum. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

cklspencer said:


> I agree on the point thing. If you take a spike tag then you use your points. A bull is a Bull is a bull. If you hunt the wasatch and kill a spike well you killed a bull. IF you draw a LE tag for wasatch you kill a bull. Either way you kill a bull. I think they should just do away with the spike hunting period.


YES!


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

cklspencer said:


> I agree on the point thing. If you take a spike tag then you use your points. A bull is a Bull is a bull. If you hunt the wasatch and kill a spike well you killed a bull. IF you draw a LE tag for wasatch you kill a bull. Either way you kill a bull. I think they should just do away with the spike hunting period.


+ 1 spikes are the future elk hunting!!!!


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Packout said:


> That said, I would like to hear ideas on how to maintain high age classes on a few units and keep the bull cow ratios in check without a spike hunt?


All you or anyone else has to do is look at Arizona's elk plan. It works!

They take the rifle shoot out of the rut! 
They give out loads of archery tags in the rut! 
This keeps the age objective high. 
This allows for more tags to be issued for a chance at big bulls!
You can draw multiple times in your life. 
You will have more big bulls to find sheds cause they live past their first year!

Spike elk hunts suck just as bad as spike deer hunts suck!!!

not smacking you around Mike. You know I like ya and know you do a great job! i just dislike the spike hunts.


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## prettytiedup (Dec 19, 2007)

Everything I had to say was said in the "Future of Elk Hunting" thread. ALL ELK TAGS SHOULD BE ISSUED THROUGH THE DRAW. If you draw a first choice tag for an antlered elk it costs you your points. PERIOD. Move the rifle hunt out of the rut, Increase Archery and Muzzle loader tags and manage the units to bull to cow ratios. Do away with spike hunts except on the existing any bull areas. Manage 8-10 units as once in a lifetime hunts and the rest to bull to cow ratios only. If average success rates could be reduced to 35% or so imagine how many tags could be issued and how fast people could be cycled through the system. 

I know,I know, not in my back yard. :roll:


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

cklspencer said:


> I agree on the point thing. If you take a spike tag then you use your points. A bull is a Bull is a bull. If you hunt the wasatch and kill a spike well you killed a bull. IF you draw a LE tag for wasatch you kill a bull. Either way you kill a bull. I think they should just do away with the spike hunting period.


So you want every one to stop hunting aliens/spikes so they can hunt big bulls. Then you guys will bitch because it going to take 40 years to draw a LE tag because every will stop chasing spike to kill a big bull and back up the draw time more. People buy spike tags because they did not get there LE and they use the spike hunt as a scouting and learning of the area.So when they do draw that LE TAG they know where the big boys are at. LEAVE IT HOW IT IS.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Maybe a fair solution is to not make people burn their points when they get a spike/any-bull tag, but they don't get a point that year. So, if you have 10 points and buy a spike/any-bull tag you still have 10 points, but if you don't obtain ANY male elk tag you would have 11 points. Bonus points should be a reward for not hunting the animal in question. Kind of like under the old AR-301 and ML-301, you didn't lose your points to apply/draw one of them tags, but you didn't build your LE points that year either.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Maybe a fair solution is to not make people burn their points when they get a spike/any-bull tag, but they don't get a point that year. So, if you have 10 points and buy a spike/any-bull tag you still have 10 points, but if you don't obtain ANY male elk tag you would have 11 points. Bonus points should be a reward for not hunting the animal in question. Kind of like under the old AR-301 and ML-301, you didn't lose your points to apply/draw one of them tags, but you didn't build your LE points that year either.


I still disagree with that.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe a fair solution is to not make people burn their points when they get a spike/any-bull tag, but they don't get a point that year. So, if you have 10 points and buy a spike/any-bull tag you still have 10 points, but if you don't obtain ANY male elk tag you would have 11 points. Bonus points should be a reward for not hunting the animal in question. Kind of like under the old AR-301 and ML-301, you didn't lose your points to apply/draw one of them tags, but you didn't build your LE points that year either.
> ...


And I disagree with you. This is fun. :lol:


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

> So you want every one to stop hunting aliens/spikes so they can hunt big bulls. Then you guys will **** because it going to take 40 years to draw a LE tag because every will stop chasing spike to kill a big bull and back up the draw time more. People buy spike tags because they did not get there LE and they use the spike hunt as a scouting and learning of the area.So when they do draw that LE TAG they know where the big boys are at. LEAVE IT HOW IT IS.


You are way off. If there were no spike hunts that would mean there would be more older bulls, Then there would be more tags moving poeple out of the draw alot faster making it so you could hunt bigger bulls more often.

Secound. You are right people buy spike tags because they did not get there LE tag. So what do they do they go out and kill a bull because a spike is a bull. A bull in a LE area is a bull. It makes diferance if that bull is a six piont or a spike. So why should you get to keep points. You don't need a tag to scout and find the big boys or to learn about an area.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Maybe a fair solution is to not make people burn their points when they get a spike/any-bull tag, but they don't get a point that year. So, if you have 10 points and buy a spike/any-bull tag you still have 10 points, but if you don't obtain ANY male elk tag you would have 11 points. Bonus points should be a reward for not hunting the animal in question. Kind of like under the old AR-301 and ML-301, you didn't lose your points to apply/draw one of them tags, but you didn't build your LE points that year either.


I strongly agree with this!


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

dkhntrdstn said:


> So you want every one to stop hunting aliens/spikes so they can hunt big bulls. Then you guys will **** because it going to take 40 years to draw a LE tag because every will stop chasing spike to kill a big bull and back up the draw time more. People buy spike tags because they did not get there LE and they use the spike hunt as a scouting and learning of the area.So when they do draw that LE TAG they know where the big boys are at. LEAVE IT HOW IT IS.


This is really illogical. According to your post the people that are killing the spikes are also putting in for LE. So whether there is a spike hunt or not, the same people will be putting in for LE. Only difference is there will be MORE mature bulls which = more mature tags per year.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

You are way off. If there were no spike hunts that would mean there would be more older bulls, Then there would be more tags moving poeple out of the draw alot faster making it so you could hunt bigger bulls more often.

Secound. You are right people buy spike tags because they did not get there LE tag. So what do they do they go out and kill a bull because a spike is a bull. A bull in a LE area is a bull. It makes diferance if that bull is a six piont or a spike. So why should you get to keep points. You don't need a tag to scout and find the big boys or to learn about an area.[/quote]

yea you are right that you don't need a tag to scout or learn the area. But why should I lose my points because I did not draw my le tag and I still want to hunt for elk. why should Iand my family sit and out for another year of hunting because I don't want to lose my points for my Le hunt.So just not me being punished but my family is to. that not cool at all. Some of use don't give a **** about the score of the bull that we kill.You can't eat the dam antlers any was. When I draw my LE tag I'm shooting the first bull that has ivery tips I don't give a **** if he a 4x4 he will go down.If you take a way the alien hunt you will lose more hunter in Utah.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

who cares about my option Im just a meat hunter any was. Im one of those guys that you guys want me to stop hunting spikes. Good luck getting this to go through. have a good one. IN a couple months I will go out looking for some aliens and cows to kill.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

A few things: 1) getting rid of spike tags will only make the points/draw problem worse 2) spike tags give thousands of hunters opportunity to hunt...far more opportunity than Arizona could ever even dream of 3) spike tags serve a biological purpose 

Getting rid of spike tags is totally stupid....


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

why don't we worry about stopping guiding in Utah for all hunts. :mrgreen:


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

dkhntrdstn would you rather kill a big bull or a spike?



> A few things: 1) getting rid of spike tags will only make the points/draw problem worse 2) spike tags give thousands of hunters opportunity to hunt...far more opportunity than Arizona could ever even dream of 3) spike tags serve a biological purpose


1)Spike hunting does give opportunity and thats fine but if you are going to kill a bull that is a yearling then why should you get a point at the same time to kill a mature bull?
2) explain how not killing spikes and gaining more large bull tags are taking away from opportunity? You would still have the opportunity it might not be every year. on the same note how may of these spike hunters do you think put in for LE at the Same time or buy a point. I would bet its at least 85 percent.
3) explain how spike tags serve a biological purpose? I see no Biological purpose to it at all if you were able to give out more mature bull tags and manage for a bull to cow ratio. Now I could see how it could be a money purpose.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

cklspencer said:


> dkhntrdstn would you rather kill a big bull or a spike?


I must want to do both or I would not buy a spike tag and put in for a big bull.

Here a thought why not fight to get the rifle hunt out of the rut and put the archery there.Maybe you guys should fight for that instead.But Like I said I'm just a meat hunter and I love hunting.also why not put a number of alien tags on the unites? So you only sell like 1000 spike tags on each unite. I bet maybe a 100 aliens would be killed.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> A few things: 1) getting rid of spike tags will only make the points/draw problem worse Only if you didn't add opportunity in other ways, which can be done fairly easily if the will to do so is there. 2) spike tags give thousands of hunters opportunity to hunt...far more opportunity than Arizona could ever even dream of That may be true, but it is a false argument, you make it sound as if it must be either/or. I am asking for a better balance, and killing spikes takes opportunity AWAY from those wishing to hunt mature bulls. I realize you like hunting spikes, so you feel your wishes/definitions of 'opportunnity' should take precedence over mine, or another hunters.3) spike tags serve a biological purpose A biological purpose that can be accomplished other ways that give hunters better/more options.
> 
> Getting rid of spike tags is totally stupid....That is your opinion based on emotion, not biology!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

cklspencer said:


> 1)Spike hunting does give opportunity and thats fine but if you are going to kill a bull that is a yearling then why should you get a point at the same time to kill a mature bull?
> 2) explain how not killing spikes and gaining more large bull tags are taking away from opportunity? You would still have the opportunity it might not be every year. on the same note how may of these spike hunters do you think put in for LE at the Same time or buy a point. I would bet its at least 85 percent.
> 3) explain how spike tags serve a biological purpose? I see no Biological purpose to it at all if you were able to give out more mature bull tags and manage for a bull to cow ratio. Now I could see how it could be a money purpose.


1) Because spike hunts are not draw hunts; they are general season hunts.
2) Currently, the DWR sells what 15,000 spike tags to rifle hunters? Combine that number to the muzzy spike tags and archery spike tags and how many spike tags does Utah give out? 20,000+? Do you honestly think we could give the same amount of opportunity without those spike tags? NO WAY!
3) Spike tags allow the state to manage bull/cow ratios within a certain level, and, at the same time, also maintain a certain level of quality with their limited entry units. It is a win/win for hunters...

....eliminating spike tags eliminates hunting opportunity, will increase the "butt plug" in the point system, and will continue to diminish the tradition of hunting in many many families. It is NOT a good idea!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> cklspencer said:
> 
> 
> > dkhntrdstn would you rather kill a big bull or a spike?
> ...


Dustin, I admit I was once in favor of ending ALL spike hunts, but no longer. I just don't think a hunter should get a bonus point, which is supposed to be a reward for not hunting male elk, if the hunter hunts spikes.

As for only issuing 1000 spike tags on a given unit, I doubt it would change the number of spikes killed by much, it would likely raise the success rates, but the number of spikes killed would be around the same, but you have now taken opportunity away. For me, a Free Market guy, I say let the market dictate the number of spike tags issued each year. Don't issue bonus points to hunters who hunt spikes/any-bulls, then we will see who the 'true opportunists' are and who the 'trophy' hunters are. 8)


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> For me, a Free Market guy, I say let the market dictate the number of spike tags issued each year. Don't issue bonus points to hunters who hunt spikes/any-bulls, then we will see who the 'true opportunists' are and who the 'trophy' hunters are. 8)


I like this idea only if more LE units are opened up to general season hunting like the Uintas or Cedar Mountain; otherwise, you are punishing the general season hunters...


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> As for only issuing 1000 spike tags on a given unit, I doubt it would change the number of spikes killed by much, it would likely raise the success rates, but the number of spikes killed would be around the same, but you have now taken opportunity away. For me, a Free Market guy, I say let the market dictate the number of spike tags issued each year. Don't issue bonus points to hunters who hunt spikes/any-bulls, then we will see who the 'true opportunists' are and who the 'trophy' hunters are. 8)


How im I taking away opportunity from you ? How would the kill number stay the same if you only give out a 1000 spike tags per unite ?


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

When and why did we start calling spike hunt alien hunts?

And Dustin slow down, and calm down, you're making less sense then normal. :lol: I do agree with you on being able to have the opportunity every year to hunt elk, and not loosing points because of it. I also like meat.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> How im I taking away opportunity from you ? How would the kill number stay the same if you only give out a 1000 spike tags per unite ?


if yo uLILMIT the number of tags you are TAKING opportunity away.  And, since the success rate will likely go up with reduced pressure, the same number of spikes will likely be killed even with fewer alien hunters in the field.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > For me, a Free Market guy, I say let the market dictate the number of spike tags issued each year. Don't issue bonus points to hunters who hunt spikes/any-bulls, then we will see who the 'true opportunists' are and who the 'trophy' hunters are. 8)
> ...


Explain, you've lost me.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> dkhntrdstn said:
> 
> 
> > How im I taking away opportunity from you ? How would the kill number stay the same if you only give out a 1000 spike tags per unite ?
> ...


ok good point there.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Simple on general season any-bull units, hunters still have the opportunity to hunt trophy bulls. So, if you take away their opportunity to gain a LE point when they purchase a "any-bull" tag, I think that is fair. So, if you opened up more LE areas to general season any-bull hunting, I think the idea could work. But, as it stands now, too much of the state is spike only as a general season, SO I don't think it is fair to take away a spike hunter's opportunity at getting a limited entry hunt. Spike hunting is not a "quality" hunt...why should a spike hunter be punished for shooting a non-"quality" bull on a general season non-"quality" hunt? I don't think that is right at all....

...I guess my point is that your idea would be fine with me if you are distinguishing between general season any-bull tag holders and general season spike tag holders and then disallowing those any-bull hunters from gaining a point.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> When and why did we start calling spike hunt alien hunts?
> 
> And Dustin slow down, and calm down, you're making less sense then normal. :lol: I do agree with you on being able to have the opportunity every year to hunt elk, and not loosing points because of it. I also like meat.


when did we start.no body but me call them aliens. I got that off one of the primos turth hunting dvd's Don't re-amber witch one.Will shot a bull and then a spike comes running past and stand there and looks at them and he goes look at that alien. so ever sent then I called them aliens.

When do I ever make sense. :mrgreen: 8)


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> And, since the success rate will likely go up with reduced pressure, the same number of spikes will likely be killed even with fewer alien hunters in the field.


In fact, though, Pro, your theory is not true. When spike tag numbers were reduced harvest rates stayed the same. One thing that has been learned about spike hunting is that the harvest rates or percentages remain pretty static regardless of tag numbers....


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

> SO I don't think it is fair to take away a spike hunter's opportunity at getting a limited entry hunt. Spike hunting is not a "quality" hunt...why should a spike hunter be punished for shooting a non-"quality" bull


It should make no differance if it quality bull or not. Its a bull. Even a spike as the could or I should say will become a quality bull. Not every bull killed with a LE tag is a quality bull. 
And some of you are right By gettting rid of a spike hunt you reduce opportunity. But we are hitting a day and age where the number of application verses the number of tags is more then number of tag we give out. So either way someone is not getting the opportunity to hunt everyyear. If its just about going out and killing something for you then go kill a rabbit. I hate nothing more then the words I do it for the meat when it comes to spike hunting. If that is the case get a **** cow tag. The butt pug in the state will not change unless you either rid of the high number of application or create more opportunity for LE. The only way to create more opportunity for LE is to stop killing spikes. The only other way to stop the point madness is if someone had to choose between using their points for spike or for LE. You may be able to provied a little with some hunt date changes and weapon changes but its not going to fix the problem. Either way it is not 100% but would take alot of pressure of of it. The same should be done with deer.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

cklspencer said:


> If that is the case get a **** cow tag.


I do put in for cow tags. but I don't all was draw them.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Spike hunting is not a "quality" hunt...why should a spike hunter be punished for shooting a non-"quality" bull on a general season non-"quality" hunt? I don't think that is right at all....


Even a lot of hunters don't consider a 4 point bull a "quality" bull. It shouldn't be based on the "quality", but instead the sack of marbles between his legs. Like others have said....a bull is a BULL.

Why can't a lot of spike hunters just shoot cow elk instead of feeling the need to kill a spike. The meat is the same so shouldn't we let the baby bulls grow up?

We need to wean some Utah hunters off of spike tags. You don't see a lot of other western states issuing spike tags.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

What we need to wean people off of is large tracks of land tied up for LE hunts. Quit trying to put 400" bulls around every corner. It's called hunting.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Quit trying to put 400" bulls around every corner. It's called hunting.


I cannot think of one unit that has 400 class bulls around every corner.



> What we need to wean people off of is large tracks of land tied up for LE hunts


I400 is a better idea to free up some land so more people have an opportunity to hunt elk.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Quit *trying to* put 400" bulls around every corner. It's called hunting.
> 
> 
> I cannot think of one unit that has 400 class bulls around every corner.
> ...


I400 is a better idea to free up some land so more people have an opportunity to hunt elk.*I400 may very well be part of the answer, but it does not seem to be on the table.*[/quote:2kudvlgp]

I guess the part that ticks me off is the unit that I hunt is both spike, LE, and Premium. Why, because of dollars. No other reason. So now guys are going to punish me because I like to hunt every year by saying its either or. If 80% of the hunters just want to hunt it makes no sense to me to have 80% of the land tied up for 20% of the hunters. Now before some of you break my balls the percentages are pulled out of my backside. But the principle is the same.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > > Quit *trying to* put 400" bulls around every corner. It's called hunting.
> ...


I guess the part that ticks me off is the unit that I hunt is both spike, LE, and Premium. Why, because of dollars. No other reason. So now guys are going to punish me because I like to hunt every year by saying its either or. If 80% of the hunters just want to hunt it makes no sense to me to have 80% of the land tied up for 20% of the hunters. Now before some of you break my balls the percentages are pulled out of my backside. But the principle is the same.[/quote:227tyit8]

Well I agree we need more diversity. We shouldn't be managing all units for trophy class bulls that is true. I think we all want to hunt every year, but is that realistic?


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

coyoteslayer said:


> I don't believe we are managing for 400 class bulls around every corner, but I think we need to go away from age class objective towards bull to cow ratios. Not every bull can even grow to 400 inches. BUT I do get your point. *You don't like the DWR managing for trophy bulls*.
> *I don't like the disproportion between what the average hunter wants and the trophy areas. In a nut shell I like the any bull idea, but not the fact that it is so limited area wise.*
> Well I agree we need more diversity. We shouldn't be managing all units for trophy class bulls that is true. I think we all want to hunt every year, but is that realistic?[/color]
> *And we should not be managing units for all three. If all the spike units were turned to any bull (with no LE hunts on them), I400 installed, then some trophy LE units (proportionaly corrected), and finally topped with points are used for any draw you might have something that people are looking for. And to answer your last question is yes I do believe we can hunt every year. We were doing it before all the LE's. Simple rules and no butt plug.*


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> And to answer your last question is yes I do believe we can hunt every year. We were doing it before all the LE's. Simple rules and no butt plug.


People don't even hunt deer every year. I know of friends that didn't draw a deer tag last year. ( I know, I know free up LE deer units) BUT we shouldnt be catering to only one type of hunter. I'm sorry, but we couldn't issue enough elk tags to let everyone in the state hunt elk even if the whole state went to General Season elk. It's not realistic.

Plus no one wants to see all the elk units slaughtered to where a trophy bull was a spike like it was back in the 80's.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> All you or anyone else has to do is look at Arizona's elk plan. It works!
> 
> They take the rifle shoot out of the rut! AGREED
> They give out loads of archery tags in the rut! I have a problem with this one. Most units in the state archers can draw a tag with 5-7 points. This tells me either 1. We don't have a lot of archers that hunt elk or 2. A lot of archers are scared to death to burn their points on an archery hunt so they put in for a rifle or ML tag because they feel more comfortable
> ...


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Wow, you guys have been busy today. There are some interesting thoughts on the subject.

I, personally, do not want to make the system more complicated.


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## BucksNBulls (May 27, 2008)

CS....Why do you care so much? Don't you have bonus hunts and special opportunity because you are handicapped? I'd bet you have more hunting "opportunity" because everyone tries to cater to the "special".


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> CS....Why do you care so much? Don't you have bonus hunts and special opportunity because you are handicapped? I'd bet you have more hunting "opportunity" because everyone tries to cater to the "special".


Handicapped is kind of a bad term. I believe "Phyiscally Challenged" is a better term. BUT I really don't consider myself disabled because I can still do a hell of a lot of things.

So are you saying that people who have drawn elk tags or deer tags in the past shouldn't care about the future of hunting? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: I also know that a lot of people care because they want their kids to have a lot of the same hunting opportunities.

I do care about the future of hunting just like a lot of other people on this forum. Most of the hunts that I have been on are hunts that I actually drew myself. Yes I have had a few "special" hunts also. I have also helped out many, many, many hunters over the years enjoy the sport of hunting. I also don't like people feeling sorry for me because of my situation.

Being in a wheelchair can make hunting very difficult. Phyiscally challenged hunters can only hunt from the roads. A lot of deer and elk get pushed away from the roads during the hunts. If the deer moves then you cannot quickly sneak around to get a better shot. I have had a lot of missed opportunities because things didn't go right, but I never give up.

I also cannot take off work, and go hunting anytime I want to. I have to rely on others because I cannot open gates or drag the deer or elk back to the truck. This has taught me a lot of patience, but I do have great brothers, father, and friends that take the time to help me enjoy hunting.

"Phyiscally Challenged" hunters also don't live as long because of many health issues so our hunting opportunities are limited.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

BucksNbulls, also look at people like Elk22 who has a whole house full of animal mounts. He's very passionate about the sport of hunting, and he enjoys seeing the success of family and friends. I'm very jealous that he went to Africa and killed some amazing animals.

Proutdoors also is someone who is very passionate about hunting and look at all the nice bulls he has killed. He also has stated that he would give anything for his little boy to have the same opportunity to kill some huge bulls. I wish I get the opportunity someday to kill a big stinky also.

I'm sure they can tell you better than I can about why they care.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Most units in the state archers can draw a tag with 5-7 points. This tells me either 1. We don't have a lot of archers that hunt elk or 2. A lot of archers are scared to death to burn their points on an archery hunt so they put in for a rifle or ML tag because they feel more comfortable.


It is true it takes far fewer points to draw an archery LE tag than an any-weapon tag. There are many reasons for this as you know. You're brother, 'Lil Feller', is an archer who won't put in for a LE archery elk tag because he doesn't want to burn his points on a tag that may only come once in his life on a 25-35% success rate hunt, when he can draw an any-weapon tag for the same unit and have a 90% success rate. There are many in the draw pool that won't apply for an archery permit for the same reason. Another reason is season dates, the any-weapon hunt has better dates according to most hunters opinions.

I've been on a huge economics kick as of late so bear with me; The Wildlife Board is charged with producing and maintaining hunt-able wildlife that fit the demands of the consumer, Joe Public Hunter. In every sense they are failing miserably. Sticking with elk, we give hunters fewer choices than warranted, catering to a small niche and ignoring the majority of customers. Survey after survey shows not every hunter demands the 'opportunity' to hunt 400 class bulls, yet the only reason to manage elk to harvest age averages is 'quality', a term that is unmeasurable and is impossible to uniformly meet the definition for all costumers. The only reason spike tags are warranted is for the very reasons wyoming2utah dislikes conservation tags, a rationing of the product instead of managing and providing product*s* the customers want. Most hunters don't hunt spikes due to a love of chasing spikes, they hunt spikes because it is the only elk tag they can get. That is akin to a car dealership offering only Cadillac Sedans or Geo Metro Hatchbacks due to a city ordinance mandating it. If they have nowhere else to shop, most will end up driving Geo's. Then along comes the City Council claiming the citizens must really like Geo's since so many folks drive them. :? Give hunters MORE choices, the resources are there, the tools are there, all that is lacking is the will of the WB to do their job, which is to PRODUCE what the customers, all of them not just the ones who can afford the sedan's, want. Some want world class 'quality', others want a decent chance of harvesting a mature bull (4+ years old), others just want to hunt for the meat, others like the challenge of hunting where few elk are put also where few hunters are, and most don't want to be 'meat hunters' while they wait to hunt mature bulls, they would like to hunt mature bulls more often than 1-3 times in their lifetime. Sadly, most youth/new hunters just starting to accumulate bonus points likely will NEVER draw a tag for a mature bull hunt, and that is not even including the premium 'quality' LE units. There is no biological reason for this. Yet, we have 75% of the elk herd 'managed' for 'quality', and then issue spike tags so we can keep the masses from giving up on hunting altogether.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Nicely Stated!!!!


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

coyoteslayer said:


> People don't even hunt deer every year. I know of friends that didn't draw a deer tag last year. ( I know, I know free up LE deer units) BUT we shouldnt be catering to only one type of hunter. I'm sorry, but we couldn't issue enough elk tags to let everyone in the state hunt elk even if the whole state went to General Season elk. It's not realistic.
> 
> Plus no one wants to see all the elk units slaughtered to where a trophy bull was a spike like it was back in the 80's.


We already have a cap on tags. The any bull units are not slaughtered. Geez you can phase things in, it does not have to be all or nothing all at once. By peoples own words we can increase the archery tags and affect the animals very little. Hunting branched antlered elk should not be a once in a life time hunt in the State of Utah. You talk about not catering to one type, but that is exactly what is happening now.


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## BucksNBulls (May 27, 2008)

coyoteslayer said:


> > CS....Why do you care so much? Don't you have bonus hunts and special opportunity because you are handicapped? I'd bet you have more hunting "opportunity" because everyone tries to cater to the "special".
> 
> 
> Handicapped is kind of a bad term. I believe "Phyiscally Challenged" is a better term. BUT I really don't consider myself disabled because I can still do a hell of a lot of things.
> ...


I should have known that your response would have stated how AWESOME you think you are and how great you are and how much you have helped everyone. Man CS, HANDICAPPED or not you are like a major superman and I want to be an AWESOME hunter just like you!


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I think alot of good points have been made in this thread. I think Pro is probably correct though. Due to the years long waits and the complexity of the system all of the guys I hunted with in my younger years have quit hunting big game and I am at that crossroads myself. If not for my daughter I would most definitely be done with big game. I lack the time to do all the scouting and securing permission that is required in my opinion to succesfully hunt a trophy elk or deer for that matter. I wish it were simple like it used to be and I miss the excitement of the anticipation of what I might run into. The management schemes we are currently working under are lacking in producing a product that the majority are interested in. Every guy that gives up hunting is a lost voice not to mention the economic loss and it has a ripple effect in that it inevitably will result in other people giving it up also. I hold no ill will toward those that have the resources and desire to wade through the current system but I would sure like to see it simplified. Life in todays world is very complex and hunting is/was my escape from that complexity the way things are now it is no longer an escape it adds to it and that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This is just my perspective and I hope the guys that are willing to deal with the complexities keep killing those trophy animals because I really enjoy reading the stories and looking at the pictures.


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## prettytiedup (Dec 19, 2007)

Wildlife is a limited resourse. When demand exceeds supply then some form of rationing has to take place. Whether we like it or not, the days of the family hunting/camping trip where everyone has a tag and hunts wherever they want has come to an end. 
I think everyone can agree that a spike elk is still a bull. A yearling bull no doubt but still a bull. Regardless of whether you have killed a yearling or an 8yr old, you have still killed a bull elk. 
Some hunters claim that size doesn't matter or that they will kill the first bull with Ivory tips they see but if you had a spike standing next to at 240 bull on an open bull area 99.8% of hunters will kill the 240 bull. So size DOES matter. I disagree with those here who say "I love my spike hunts". I don't believe you are being completely honest. You love to hunt, and hunting spikes is the only option available (besides the any bull areas). I still believe that those people who claim to "Love spike hunts" wouldn't pass up a 240 bull to kill a spike. 

So the question then becomes, do we want to kill bulls as yearlings or do we want to kill them as a more mature animal?

According to the DWR site, general spike hunters enjoy a whopping 16% success rate. LE hunters enjoy an average success of 80%+ accross the 3 seasons. By simply managing to bull/cow ratio, moving season dates and adjusting tag numbers in favor of primitive weapons I believe that much more opportunity can be given to hunt mature bulls. This plan for 18-20 of the existing LE units, combined with the existing any bull areas and antlerless permits would be an option, and a good option, to increase the quality of bulls available to the majority of hunters in the field.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I should have known that your response would have stated how AWESOME you think you are and how great you are and how much you have helped everyone. Man CS, HANDICAPPED or not you are like a major superman and I want to be an AWESOME hunter just like you!


Are you having another bad day?-_O- -_O- -_O- Talk about not being able to read. I never said I was AWESOME. I said I have helped hunters before. This shouldn't be looked down upon. I know many people on this forum that have helped a lot more hunters than I have. Good for them!!!!

I believe you're only trying to start an argument and nothing more.

BTW, I wouldn't recommend being in a wheelchair. It isn't as great as you think it could be.

Classy responds from the bucksNbulls man. Thanks for the laugh, but I'm not superman.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> We already have a cap on tags. The any bull units are not slaughtered. Geez you can phase things in, it does not have to be all or nothing all at once. By peoples own words we can increase the archery tags and affect the animals very little. Hunting branched antlered elk should not be a once in a life time hunt in the State of Utah. You talk about not catering to one type, but that is exactly what is happening now


I agree, hunting branch antlered bulls shouldn't ever be a OIL hunt. Yes, we can give a lot of archery tags and it's won't affect the animals as much. The more archer you put the field can impact the success of archers.

How many rifle hunters or ML hunters are going to see this as a fair deal? We all know that rifle hunters have a huge voice because they are the majority.



> You talk about not catering to one type, but that is exactly what is happening now


Last year we gave out 2,654 LE tags and more than 30,000 General Season elk tags (this is counting unlimited archery elk tags in the figure)

As you can see, we are catering more to General Season tags. I would like to see Utah give out atleast 6,000 LE tags. This would help more people draw out and cycle people through the system faster.

I don't want to see a lot of units turned into anybull units like we have now. I would like to see bull to cow ratio at least be 20/100. I like the idea of I400 a lot better.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

coyoteslayer said:


> Last year we gave out 2,654 LE tags and more than 30,000 General Season elk tags (this is counting unlimited archery elk tags in the figure)
> 
> As you can see, we are catering more to General Season tags. I would like to see Utah give out atleast 6,000 LE tags. This would help more people draw out and cycle people through the system faster.


And those 30,000 are hunting on a fraction of the ground that the 2654 are on.

For those 2654 tags how much of the state (physical ground and herd number wise) is tied up. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts it is more than 50% of the state. I'll even wager to guess that of those 2654 LE hunters that are successful, that the same number of bulls are flat out dying of old age every year. What a waste.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> And those 30,000 are hunting on a fraction of the ground that the 2654 are on.
> 
> For those 2654 tags how much of the state (physical ground and herd number wise) is tied up. I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts it is more than 50% of the state. I'll even wager to guess that of those 2654 LE hunters that are successful, that the same number of bulls are flat out dying of old age every year. What a waste.


I believe General Season hunters are hunting on more land because spike tags are statewide on all the LE units, minus I believe the South Slope. Plus the Anybull unit covers ground that is not part of the LE units. Therefore, General Season elk covers more ground.

Yes, even the DWR are finding bulls that are dying of old age. It truly is a waste. We need to issue more LE tags like I said and manage more units to 20/100 bull to cow ratios instead of 60/100 to 80/100 on some units.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

> Wildlife is a limited resourse. When demand exceeds supply then some form of rationing has to take place. Whether we like it or not, the days of the family hunting/camping trip where everyone has a tag and hunts wherever they want has come to an end.


You're absolutely right, some rationing has GOT to take place. The problem with the current system is that we're doing the equivalent of FEMA handing out a jar of caviar to the first two people through the doors at the disaster relief shelter and having nothing for the rest. 
We are currently handing out the best possible product out to less than 1% of the applicants each year, rather than serving up a pretty darn good product to a lot more people. We're currently giving a handful of people the opportunity to chase a 350+ class bull, when quite frankly most of us would crap our pants at anything over the 200 inch mark. Not every unit in the state needs to be capable of producing the next world record for the Denny Austads of the world that can afford it.



> believe General Season hunters are hunting on more land because spike tags are statewide on all the LE units, minus I believe the South Slope. Plus the Anybull unit covers ground that is not part of the LE units. Therefore, General Season elk covers more ground.


What a crock this piece is. It's the equivalent of handing out a 2 point only deer tag to the majority of the deer hunters in the state, so that one or two people can shoot a 4 point, and then claiming that we cater to the 2 point hunters because they have most of the state to hunt on.

Look we really are doing a great job here of producing MASSIVE bull elk in Utah, but most people will never in their lifetime draw a tag for these units. And while I feel that the units that are capable of producing the absolutely best elk out there, should be managed for trophies and that once in a lifetime experience, they don't all have to be managed that way. We really could take a couple units like Manti and open them up to a little more opportunity. Because right now what you've done is taken away the anticipation of what's to come. Most of us know that when we take to the field, the best we can do is a spike. Not a lot of incentive to give a crap about the future of elk hunting. And the next generation that is coming along, about to inherit this "legacy" has almost no incentive to care about the future of hunting, because the opportunity for them simply isn't there. If you can't offer the next generation something more than watching the rich kid in school be able to buy a tag while the rest can't ever count on getting an opportunity, why on earth are they going to care about any of this.

Look I get that there are a lot of you out there that just once in your life want a chance at a truly ginormous animal, and that you have enough bonus points built up that you might have a chance of drawing just before AARP takes you into the fold, but the younger guys who just are starting and don't have any bonus points have very little incentive to care about any of these programs, and it's only a matter of time before all this great conservation work goes to complete waste if you can't give a better reason for them to care.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

WasatchOutdoors said:


> Look we really are doing a great job here of producing MASSIVE bull elk in Utah, but most people will never in their lifetime draw a tag for these units. And while I feel that the units that are capable of producing the absolutely best elk out there, should be managed for trophies and that once in a lifetime experience, they don't all have to be managed that way. We really could take a couple units like Manti and open them up to a little more opportunity. Because right now what you've done is taken away the anticipation of what's to come. Most of us know that when we take to the field, the best we can do is a spike. Not a lot of incentive to give a crap about the future of elk hunting. And the next generation that is coming along, about to inherit this "legacy" has almost no incentive to care about the future of hunting, because the opportunity for them simply isn't there. If you can't offer the next generation something more than watching the rich kid in school be able to buy a tag while the rest can't ever count on getting an opportunity, why on earth are they going to care about any of this.


*A-FREAKING-MEN!* Absolutely dead on 100%. You said what I wish I were smart enough to have said. :_O=:


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

coyoteslayer said:


> I believe General Season hunters are hunting on more land because spike tags are statewide on all the LE units, minus I believe the South Slope. Plus the Anybull unit covers ground that is not part of the LE units. Therefore, General Season elk covers more ground.


Spike hunts in LE areas just started in 2009 (to fix a problem). I guess in some ways it would be interesting to see if some of the pressure was taken off the other spike units, but what good does that do for me. Nothing, they will just die of old age.

I think we were talking as if the spike hunts were gone, so what does that leave the general guys. Very few areas to hunt branched antlered animals.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> What a crock this piece is. It's the equivalent of handing out a 2 point only deer tag to the majority of the deer hunters in the state, so that one or two people can shoot a 4 point, and then claiming that we cater to the 2 point hunters because they have most of the state to hunt on.


I believe the majority of hunters are shooting 2 points so in a lot of ways it's a 2 point tag. You didn't read previous posts, but only cherry picked one. I only stated that General Season are hunting elk statewide. Yes, a spike tag is crappy. We need to increase our LE elk tags.

I'm on the same page with you in a lot of ways because we do need to issue a lot more tags. We have more elk than AZ and NM and they issue more mature bull elk tags


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Want the facts,,,,,Here is what I'm learning is coming out in the new EMP.....

1)Reduction in any weapon tags and increases on Archery and muzzy LE permits..

2)Increasing age objectives on some units....

3)Also an over all reduction on LE elk permits to improve quality....

There's a few other issue I'm not cleat about yet so I wont post those, 
Please correct me if I'm wrong??,,,,,Wiley ,,,Packout?? Is this right?


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Want the facts,,,,,Here is what I'm learning is coming out in the new EMP.....
> 
> 1)Reduction in any weapon tags and increases on Archery and muzzy LE permits..
> 
> ...


so just so I'm clear, we now want to reduce more opportunities? That makes sense.. :shock: I mean the extra bowhunting permits will help me because thats my preferred method of elk hunting, but it sounds like a reduction in total opportunity. And...that's supposed to be a.... good thing?

so I was thinking, we really aren't reaching our full potential on our any bull units. Doesn't everyone agree that we should just close them to hunting for about 12 years or so, just so we can have some huge bulls that no one can touch there too.

and yes we really need to raise the age objectives on our LE elk units, not nearly enough of them are dying of old age yet.

and coyoteslayer, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your overall point of view. I did indeed see just the one post and it struck a chord. That's not hard these days, just mention our current elk management, or the 5 day rifle deer hunt and I'm riled up.

Better yet, take into consideration that I spent one season introducing my nephew to elk hunting, and after spending 5 days, hunting hard, seeing well over 20 bulls, and not a single one that we could touch, I haven't been able to convince him to go again. We're sending new hunters out with no choice but to be frustrated with the system. How many of these kids are really going to stick with it? And when they stop hunting, that's it, the end. 
I've gone out of my way to try to bring youth into hunting, I can honestly say I've run into a LOT of you in the field and at events, and I'm pretty sure I've always had a young person in tow. I don't have to even try to convince them to go duck hunting, swan, pheasant, antelope or deer. But I can't get any of them to go elk hunting, because the opportunity is such a raw deal for a young hunter. This program is DOOMED if you can't give young hunters a reason to care.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> 2)Increasing age objectives on some units....
> 
> 3)Also an over all reduction on LE elk permits to improve quality....


Sounds like a bunch of geniuses. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: We already have quality. We don't need to raise age class objectives or reduce LE tags. We need to INCREASE LE elk tags across the board.

I guess the Elk Commitee is in bed with special interest groups. I hope this isn't the case.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > 2)Increasing age objectives on some units....
> >
> > 3)Also an over all reduction on LE elk permits to improve quality....
> 
> ...


goofy's jumping the gun a bit, I have copies of the minutes for every Elk Committee meeting. There are a lot if ideas being thrown out and debated, but nothing is set in stone as of this morning. Some things being kicked around I like, others I HATE. I'll wait until they actually recommend things before I condone or condemn anything. I even see some I400 stuff being tossed about.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> goofy's jumping the gun a bit, I have copies of the minutes for every Elk Committee meeting. There are a lot if ideas being thrown out and debated, but nothing is set in stone as of this morning. Some things being kicked around I like, others I HATE. I'll wait until they actually recommend things before I condone or condemn anything. I even see some I400 stuff being tossed about.


Thanks for the update. I guess I shouldn't be quick to judge, but I do hope they make good decisions and come up with a very good elk plan that benefits all hunters.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I going off a couple of phone conversations I've had with in the last hour.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I going off a couple of phone conversations I've had with in the last hour.


Ive had several in the last couple of days as well. Like I said, NOTHING has been agreed upon, they are still just tossing ideas and data around right now.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I will reiterate the fact that nothing has been decided yet. There are varying ideas on how to manage limited entry elk. Some want high age objectives; some want low age objectives. Some want larger increases in archery permits, some want smaller increases. It is good to see the passion from all sides. People care about elk, unfortunately at times in different ways. 

I won't undermine the system and post specifics on here as we all know how things can get out of hand on these sites with rumors and speculation, but I will talk to anyone about their ideas.


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