# BSA- Who's involved?



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Who here is a leader and how long have you been involved in leadership positions in the BSA program?
What do you like or dislike about the scouting program or charters?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I've been a scout leader in one way or another now for 15 years. Everything from a simple merit badge councilor, to scoutmaster, to district rep, and chartering organization rep. I've spent my wedding anniversary 10 years straight, at scout camp. I've directed fund raisers, friends of scouting drives, and rechartering process. So you name it, I have an opinion about it. 

Best pluses - Flat out - camping with the kids. BSA needs to be more about OUT doors. It is scOUTing, not scINing. More out door stuff. I liked the weekend camps, week long camps, backpacking, whatever. Getting kids outside to do whatever is the strength of the program.

Minuses - I HATED dealing with the Friends of Scouting beg-a-thon. I hate HATE HATED it. And it was frustrating as all heck to go through it all for the level of administration that quite frankly, has no bearing on the things that actually helped the boys. The council structure could go completely away for all I care, and the troops could still exist. So begging for money to pay for the council, from people that were already laying out a bunch of money for their kid to be in scouting really chapped me. 

Another minus in my mind is how the scouting culture in Utah is way too focused on signing off badges and advancements because what would the neighbors/ward members/ college admissions folks think if a kid didn't "get" his Eagle before he turned 15. Nothing frustrated me more in boards of review when I'd ask a kid to tell me something he did to earn a merit badge, and he couldn't name a single thing. This pencil whipping of merit badges and rank advancements is more prevalent in Utah than any of the other four states where I've been involved with scouts. And it has watered down the Eagle rank so much, that in most cases, it is virtually meaningless. 

Most rewarding - seeing kids do things in the outdoors they thought they couldn't do. It could be a tough hike, cooking over a fire, a three day bike ride, building a snow cave, or being patient enough to keep casting until they catch a blue gill or white bass at Utah Lake. I was very proud of the boys in my troop that EARNED their eagles, and not so much of those that "got" their eagles - which was many. I get totally choked up when I think of the first year my autistic son went to scout camp. I met with the older boys and helped them know why and how my son was different. At camp, they were great friends. They didn't do much more than say "Hey Joseph, let's go over to the trading post and get a lemonade." These boys were my heros, with how they lived the scout values and reached out and made the weird kid feel welcome. On the way home from that week at Bear Lake, my son said to me "Dad, this is the first time in my life I've ever had friends." These were amazing boys, raised by fantastic parents, who are lifetime friends. And for the next 8 years, these same boys looked out for my son at church, scouts, school, and around town. This was made possible through the scouting program. 

I could go on and on and on about the goods, bads, ins, and outs of scouting, and about scouting as it exists in Utah. But I'll let others chime in as well. If you have specific questions, I'd be glad to answer them as well. 

Hope this helps. 

Gary


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

BSA sucks in my neck of the woods. ZERO traction among leaders, in fact the current scoutmaster publicly stated in his first meeting he didn't give a crap if a single kid earned a single merit badge, as long as they just had "fun".

My boy got his eagle only a few weeks ago... but it was only because we the parents drove it through. We took him to BYU for classes several times a year, we worked through merit badge requirements at home, THEN tried to find instructors who could sign off requirements... it sucked, it was way too frustrating, way too little help from leaders, way too much work for us.

And in this day and age, why in the name of blazes cant you goto the BSA website, type in your zipcode and see a list of all the instructors for different merit badges near you???

BSA seems to be a dying thing... sadly.

PS: Most of my boy's friends cannot get their eagles now... due to the time requirements for being in each rank advancement, they are too far behind.


-DallanC


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

GaryFish said:


> Best pluses - Flat out - camping with the kids. BSA needs to be more about OUT doors. It is scOUTing, not scINing. More out door stuff. I liked the weekend camps, week long camps, backpacking, whatever. Getting kids outside to do whatever is the strength of the program.
> 
> Minuses - I HATED dealing with the Friends of Scouting beg-a-thon. I hate HATE HATED it. And it was frustrating as all heck to go through it all for the level of administration that quite frankly, has no bearing on the things that actually helped the boys. The council structure could go completely away for all I care, and the troops could still exist. So begging for money to pay for the council, from people that were already laying out a bunch of money for their kid to be in scouting really chapped me.
> 
> Another minus in my mind is how the scouting culture in Utah is way too focused on signing off badges and advancements because what would the neighbors/ward members/ college admissions folks think if a kid didn't "get" his Eagle before he turned 15. Nothing frustrated me more in boards of review when I'd ask a kid to tell me something he did to earn a merit badge, and he couldn't name a single thing. This pencil whipping of merit badges and rank advancements is more prevalent in Utah than any of the other four states where I've been involved with scouts. And it has watered down the Eagle rank so much, that in most cases, it is virtually meaningless.


+1, I couldn't say it better than that. My dad was a scoutmaster for 4 years, and I was his assistant. The Friends of Scouting drive was the worst.

I'll try to be careful here, but let's just say that some troops in Utah are way better than others. Scouting is almost a mandatory endeavor for young men in LDS culture, so in any LDS-sponsored troop, there may be scouts that aren't all that excited to be there. We had one boy who fought us constantly because his parents sent him to us each week against his will, and several who were indifferent.

Back in my scouting days, I had one scoutmaster who didn't have much enthusiasm for it. We didn't try very hard to earn merit badges, and we went on one camp a year. I suspect he only agreed to do it because he was asked.

Other than that, the headaches associated with scout leadership are fairly predictable. It is a significant time commitment. Boys will be boys, as well, and they're good at forgetting paperwork, coming unprepared for camp (despite repeated warnings and carefully drafted supply checklists), etc. We tried to turn these shortcomings into teaching moments when possible, but sometimes we had to bail them out.

I think scouting has the potential to be amazing if the troop has leaders and boys who are all on board with the program and willing to put in some work. Even in less-than-ideal situations, I still think it's a good program, and we don't regret the time we spent on it. I know all the boys came out better for their time spent on it, and they got to see places and experience things that they probably wouldn't have otherwise.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I am a merit badge couselor right now for a bunch of different badges. (I guess, due to my eclectic interests and hobbies) and my wife is the Bear den leader and part of the "scout committee". I had to chime in on this one too.

1.


GaryFish said:


> Minuses - I HATED dealing with the Friends of Scouting beg-a-thon. I hate HATE HATED it. And it was frustrating as all heck to go through it all for the level of administration that quite frankly, has no bearing on the things that actually helped the boys. The council structure could go completely away for all I care, and the troops could still exist. So begging for money to pay for the council, from people that were already laying out a bunch of money for their kid to be in scouting really chapped me.
> Gary


Gary's entire thread nailed it, but I wanted to give this an extra +1000000. The Friends of Scouting shake down has to be about as unsavory and unpleasant of a task one could imagine. The BSA council (and up) administrative bureaucracy is about as bloated as the Federal Government and dare I say, with far less accomplishment. Ugh.

2. The other thing that is extremely irritating is all the meetings for the leaders, most of them a ridiculous waste of time. My wife is a willing helper, but has come home either near tears or flaming mad about the 1-2 hours she just wasted in meetings that accomplished nothing. The BSA paperwork has also seemed to multiply by binary fission since I was a scout, further increasing leader and participant frustration.

3. It seems like a troop is as successful as their scoutmaster. In our unit, we have a superb one and I know the kids have a great experience. I also realize that other troops are not as fortunate.

4. The Utah LDS cultural expectation to get your Eagle as a step towards a mission, successful life, and salvation is the same now as it was 35 years ago when I was a scout. I got my Eagle a week before I turned 18. While some may have looked at me as a loser, the award actually meant something to me because my folks didn't earn it for me. My peers that got it at 15 and had their parents do most of their work, may or may not have been proud of it, but I will say that some of them struggled in other areas of their life subsequently, so I wonder if their award helped them much. I don't see that it has changed at the present day.

Also, living out of state for many years, I think a lot of this expectation is common in any LDS based scout troop and not just Utah based units.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

My own interest in scouting waned as a 13 year old after my scout leader confiscated the .22 pistol I brought along on a 5 day expedition into the Wind Rivers. I figured why wander around the hills for a week if you can't shoot anything??


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

When I was a Scoutmaster, we had a pretty well defined program. Each month, we'd work on a different merit badge that the boys chose (except for the month we did Citizenship in the Community). We'd find the local merit badge councilor to come and teach it. If we didn't have one, we'd find someone in the neighborhood that did that thing professionally, or as a hobby and could teach with real life experience. Nothing beats an EMT teaching first aid. And we'd spend 3-4 scout meetings on each badge, so the kids really learned, and didn't just "pass it off." This let each boy earn around 10 merit badges/year (we didn't do it the month we went to scout camp or the month we had district merit badge pow wows.

In the summer, we would go to a week long camp. I liked alternating between Bear Lake Aquatics base, and the East Fork of the Bear (Now Hinkley Scout Camp). That way the boys got two different camp experiences. The boys were expected to earn at least 5 merit badges while at camp - at least 2 eagle required (first aid, swimming, life saving, environmental science, etc...) and then the rest were "fun badges" - canoeing, rifle shooting, archery, the handicraft badges, fishing, fly fishing, etc... We also integrated 2-3 others into our troop program at camp for them to do.

In February, our district (Golden Eagle - District #15) held a really really well put together merit badge pow wow that went every Saturday of the month. The instructors were outstanding - professionals in their fields - and really taught great classes. In the Pow Wow, a kid could earn 3 merit badges over the month. Again, we required our boys to do 2 required, and 1 fun. So they'd get communications, citizenship in the world or nation, first aid, emergency preparedness, and then something cool like electronics, rocket building, or more calm ones for some of the boys like chess, computers, genealogy, or video games. But the point was - the boys had GREAT instructors that really knew their stuff, and the boys had a great time. 

What all this amounted to was that by the time the boys had been in the troop for 2 years, they had:
Monthly Merit Badges - 20
Scout Camp Merit Badges - 10-15
Pow Wow Merit Badges - 6
Total After 2 Years - 35-45 EARNED merit badges

And in that time, the boys had 10 nights camping at week long camps, and 20 more nights at monthly campouts, so 30 nights camping just by showing up and participating. 

What that translated to in regard to getting their Eagle, is that on their own and with parents help, they had to do personal management, personal fitness, and family life. These all required doing daily journaling for 60-90 days, and we provided the boys with a single workbook for all three of these, but they had to keep track of things on their own. And then they had to do their Eagle Service Project. 

The boys planned the monthly campouts and also as much of the weeklong campouts as they could (things like meals, duty assignments, activities, and some other stuff we did to make it fun. The point was - we provided a program that boys had every chance to succeed, earn whatever rank they aspired to, and have fun doing it. Some boys embraced the challenge and really enjoyed it. Others were there because they were forced to go by their parents, and fought it tooth and nail and missed out just because of their attitude. And that was the most disappointing part, to see what fun they could have, but choose not to. 

As for other meetings - the round table meetings - I attended them regularly for 10+ years because I was asked to attend. And not once did I walk out of the meeting happy I'd spent that 2 hours away from my family. I considered myself a good scout leader, and to do that, required A LOT of time away from my family. One night a week, one weekend a month, and usually two full weeks in the summer - (we also did a multi-day backpacking trip each summer). And doing another stupid round table meeting for another night each month made me bitter and cranky about the whole thing. 

But growing up, I had some exceptional scout leaders. Each summer, we'd do a weeklong scout camp, and also a week long float on the Middle Fork of the Salmon River. What could be better than that? When I was a leader, I tried to be the same kind of leader. Last summer, I had the chance to meet up with one of my old scout buddies from growing up. He is now a scout leader in Montana, and took his boys to a camp near my home in Idaho. So I went up and met him and his troop, and shared a Scoutmaster's minute with them, and helped with some special Eagle presentations. This Scout brother of mine is a lifelong friend, and it is because of scouting.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Interesting topic and posts.

I also debated whether to add my 2 cents but I will try to keep it short since I could go on for pages.

I should mention first that all my scouting experience was with LDS chartered groups.

I loved scouting as I grew up and for the first 30 years of my adult life I was quite involved, I was a Scout Master several times, Varsity leader many times and Explorer leader several times and was on the district level several times.

Some of my first scouts are in their 40's and have kids that are off their missions and are married, these men still are great friends and some call me their second dad and claim that I helped raise them. The stories I could tell could go on for pages but I just want to state a couple of things from my point of view dealing with the scouting program in the LDS Church.

1. If you had great leaders and had a great experience as a Scout, pass this on to other young men.

2. If you didn't experience #1 and have the opportunity to work with young men, make sure they have what you didn't.

3. In the LDS Church we are taught to not turn down callings, now this is just my opinion and I am not speaking for the Church or trying to change them, however, I think that when it comes to callings in the Scouting Program those getting the calling should be well instructed on what is expected and what the calling entails and be advised that it isn't a bad thing to turn down this type of calling. I think this could solve some of the bad experiences. And if you do accept the calling do your best to learn what you need to learn and give the young men a great experience.

4. Again relating to the LDS Scouting Program, don't let it take over your life and be a detriment to your family. That goes with any calling. 

5. Good luck getting them off the electronics long enough to teach them something. I was spoiled, most of the young men that I worked with loved the outdoors.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

I've worked with the Young Men in one way or the other for the last 3 years in an LDS chartered troop. When I first started working with the young men, there hadn't been an Eagle awarded or a Court of Honor in 3 years. My 15 year old's had been on one overnight "camping" trip in their time in scouts, where they stayed in a cabin, besides the summer scout camp trip. And every weeks activity was basketball.

For three years, we have battled boys who just want to have fun, parents who don't seem to care if their boys make any progress or not, and the challenge of changing the culture around the Scouting Program in our ward without turning the boys off on Scouting. 

We have had our successes and our failures. Successes include having awarded 4 Eagle Scout awards and numerous rank advancements, helping see the boys develop more skills than just their jump shot, some solid personal relationships with the boys and leaders, and the opportunity to enjoy the outdoors.

Some of the drawbacks we've faced include a lot of drama and frustration over fundraising, frustrated leaders as the boys and their parents don't seem to care or at times have respect for your time, and a particular leader who typifies the pencil whipping merit badge councilor willing to "get" any boy his Eagle (not limited to the fact this leader is a merit badge councilor for ALL of the required merit badges). 

I had a great time in Scouts, and had great leaders that I still consider my good friends. But it also helped that my best friends were all in my troop and we all loved to hunt, fish, camp, hike, and anything else outdoors. I enjoy the scouting program, but agree that at times too much emphasis is put on the destination (the Eagle) and not enough effort is spent on process of getting there.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I am also involved in scouting. Its been a love / hate relationship. Overall I really like it but there are a couple areas that I don't enjoy. 

I think the most annoying part of being a leader is parents. They just don't make scouting a priority in my area (although there are a couple parents that are engaged). There were a lot of times that it felt like I was a baby sitter for some of the boys and that the parents just sent them to scouts for a little quiet time. But the part that frustrated me most was their false promises to help with required merit badges (specifically Personal Management and Family Life). Some merit badges require a fair amount of tracking and the parents need to keep their scout motivated by reminding them to track their budgets and chores, without their encouragement the boys never fill out their worksheets.

Friends of scouting is probably my biggest pet peeve though. The money doesn't help our troop and lines the pockets of people I never have met. I personally only donate to my troop.

I love putting up flags on holidays though. It really is great to see the scouts lining the streets with Old Glory. 

I also love the camp outs where I get to teach the scouts about various skills and getting them unplugged from technology.

Steal the flag with glow sticks has been epic though. I cant believe how much fun they have playing that game.

Crawdad boils have been a ton of fun and the boys talk about it often.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

Bax* said:


> I love putting up flags on holidays though. It really is great to see the scouts lining the streets with Old Glory.


I love the idea of the flags, and I love the respect for the flag it teaches the boys, but this has been one of the most discouraging things in our troop, as it is regularly the same 3 leaders and 2 boys setting up and taking down over 75 flags. I get so sick of 2-3 hours of every holiday being taken, and then parents complaining that they have plans on holidays, so neither them or their boy can help.


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## bekins24 (Sep 22, 2015)

Idratherbehunting said:


> I love the idea of the flags, and I love the respect for the flag it teaches the boys, but this has been one of the most discouraging things in our troop, as it is regularly the same 3 leaders and 2 boys setting up and taking down over 75 flags. I get so sick of 2-3 hours of every holiday being taken, and then parents complaining that they have plans on holidays, so neither them or their boy can help.


When I was in scouts and we did flags we would have a specific dollar amount set aside for each holiday and whichever boys showed up got to split that money to put toward their camp. So on a couple of holidays I can remember it being me, my dad (scoutmaster at the time) and like 2 other boys and a couple leaders. Yes it was a little longer but we didn't care cause we knew we were getting more money with less boys. I'm sure my dad made sure I was there cause he didn't want to pay anything but it taught me to work hard so it all worked out.

Just to echo what others have said, scouting has a lot to do with the leadership. I was lucky enough to have my dad as my scoutmaster for part of my time in scouts which was great, but other than that I had great scoutmasters who had us excited about scouting. We didn't have to do merit badge stuff every week, but we did it at least once a month and I still got my eagle by 15. Some of my best memories growing up are on week long camping trips, snow cave expeditions, and other scouting adventure that happened outdoors. I used to go camping with my family for a week, come home for a day, then turn around and leave on a week long scout trip. It was basically heaven for a young kid who loved the outdoors.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Idratherbehunting said:


> I love the idea of the flags, and I love the respect for the flag it teaches the boys, but this has been one of the most discouraging things in our troop, as it is regularly the same 3 leaders and 2 boys setting up and taking down over 75 flags. I get so sick of 2-3 hours of every holiday being taken, and then parents complaining that they have plans on holidays, so neither them or their boy can help.


 That is very discouraging.

Our scouts do flags as a fundraiser to pay for camps so that they (their parents more specifically) did not have to pay.

After noticing that the same few scouts were the only ones to help, I called a meeting with the parents and explained that the scouts were expected to help with flags if they wished to enjoy the benefits of a free camp and would now be tracking who helped and who did not. If scouts missed more than two flag days per calendar year, I would then deduct a certain % from the budget allocated to that scout for camp outs and would require that scout to pay the difference before he could attend the next camp out.

They all thought I was joking until the first boy skipped out and showed up expecting to go to Strawberry for a good time and I told him that he needed to bring $25 or he could not attend. When he said that he didn't have the money, I gave him a ride home and let him know that he couldn't attend that campout.... that caught parents' attention really quick and I even got a few nasty calls. Once I explained the situation and that I was showing up late to work as a result of their boys' lack of commitment to flags, attitudes changed rather quickly.

Now flags for my entire neighborhood can be deployed in 45 min or less covering 6 zones.

If only I could teach these scouts how to swing a hammer properly, I could probably shorten this to 30 min. They hold the hammer way too high and take far too many swings to set the stakes, but at least they are working now.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

PS-

Bekins is right. Scouting is about leadership. It is your goal as an adult leader to teach the boys to lead themselves. To pick the activities, camps, and goals. Your job is ultimately to be a facilitator to ensure they stay on task. If you are doing it right, then you just need a little nudge every once in a while to keep them headed in the right direction.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

You guys had the same solution for the flags program as I proposed. A leader shot it down, so it is still a broken program.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Idratherbehunting said:


> You guys had the same solution for the flags program as I proposed. A leader shot it down, so it is still a broken program.


Our leaders shot it down as well. That's the beauty of being a leader is making executive decisions


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

The good old flag fund raiser. Nothing will puncture more sprinkler lines, than scouts with rebar and a hammer! 

Just this week, as flags were posted for flag day, I mentioned to my wife that I grew to hate seeing the flags out, because of the flag fund raiser. For 6 years, I "housed" the flags in my garage. My boys were one of the typical 2-3 families that helped out every time. 

The best part of the flags to me, wasn't the usual flag holidays. But the days when guys in the neighborhood would return home from a tour of duty in the military. We would take all of the flags - all 152 of them - and line that guy's street, leading to his house, where we would have 50+ flags lining his driveway, and sidewalk to his house, to welcome him home from serving our country. Those were the days I loved the flags the most. And they had nothing to do with a fund raiser - but just a thank you. And importantly, those were also the days when I was able to get the most help from other families. Which was a win.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Scouting was a HUGE part of my life when I was a boy. My old man was the only greater influence. So hats off to all you guys for whatever time and effort you've given to the program. You're all heroes in my book.

Maybe I only see what I look for, but I work with a lot of kids and the single biggest issue I see is a severe lack of positive male role models. Don't take that to diminish the role of fathers. Just the opposite - way too many kids today have no father, which makes men like you even more important.


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