# .284 cal for Elk?



## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok, so before tonight I had no doubt the .284 cal bullet was more than adequate for elk with the right weight bullet of course. Then when talking to a guide about the rifle I was going to build for my daughter (7mm mag or 280 AI) he suggested I stay away from anything in the .284 caliber. He said in his experience as a guide hes seen more elk lost to the .284 calibers than all other calibers. His claim is the small diameter and high velocities lead to real small entrance and exit wounds which seal up and leave virtually no blood trail. Now normally I would have chalked it up to simply one guys opinion other than I had already heard those same things from another guy who's been around the block more than a time or two. Both suggested staying with a minimum of .30 cal for an elk gun. SO....I need some reassurance from all you .284 people out there that I'm not going down the wrong path with a .284 cal rifle for elk at ranges out to 500 yards max.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

And elk shot in the @$$ with a 375Mag will get probably get away, a elk shot through the heart with a 270 ain't going no where. Also when talking generically about "elk", remember there is quite a difference in cows, spikes and big bulls. 

My boy's 7mm08 absolutely destroyed the vitals of his cow with a 140grn accubond. It was just chunky tomato soup in there when we opened it up. I'm a big fan of 7mm's


-DallanC


----------



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I am with the guides on this one. If you're really trying for an "elk" gun, .30 is the smallest I'd recommend. 308 Win can be loaded down to reasonable recoil and still be an effective elk rifle.
My favorite good old boy Elmer Kieth always said "use enough gun"!


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I had a big post but it all leads to me laughing.

Sure, 7 mags don't kill elk.



Edit: not directed at you booya, just the guides and this subject as a whole. When you are a 7 mag guy seein this only makes you chuckle.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I love it when so called guides start to tell you that certain calibers are no good for a animal. They would rather you shoot a rifle and caliber that you can't handle to try and make up for their lack of skill in getting you to the animals. 

I have taken quite a few elk with a 7mm Rem Mag and I have friends that have taken a lot more than I have with it also. I have never lost a elk that I have shot with one either, I guess that blows the so called guides ideas away. I wonder what he would say if I showed up in his camp with a Thompson Center Contender in 7-30 Waters for a elk hunt, and yes I have shot and killed a elk with it also. 

Anymore for elk I drag out my .340 Weatherby but it isn't because the 7mm doesn't work anymore it is that I just like the Weatherby more. And now that I am in my 60's I have a new quest, I want to kill a elk or deer with every caliber and weapon that I have in my gun safe. That means that I have at least 30 more animals to bring home before I give up hunting and that includes calibers from .22-250 up to a .348 Winchester and a lot in between, and I won't feel under or over gunned with any of them. _O\\


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I have to wonder on how many experiences he has based this conclusion. I have seen a 30-06 not leave a great trail. The difference between a .308 and .284 is only 8% smaller for the .284 in diameter, and the area of the hole would also be only 8%, which is not a major difference. Maybe he is on to something with velocity, but there are comparable velocities in each. When a shot is placed correctly, I am not sure how much difference the trail really makes when they only go 50 yards, but on questionable placement I can see it make a difference. My experience has been that a lot of folks make up their personal mind on pretty small data sets and I will guess that is the case with this guide. I would bet that I can find you another guide who disagrees as he shoots a lot of the 6.5's.


----------



## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I have sat at my dads side on countless elk hunts with his 7mm mag. When he shoots it he is accurate and hits them where it counts. There is no blood trail when they wander off for at least 100 yards. Usually the rounds pass through lungs and heart. When the blood does get out it is like buckets of blood. Those thinner rounds usually pass all the way through but there is no immediate devastation like the 30 cal rounds most of the time. 

The elk never act like they are hit they just walk off. As a matter of fact he shot a spike 3 times through the vitals and was starting to question whether his scope was off. Then the spike dumped over. So the 7mm will kill elk and from long distances, but you it doesn't devastate most of the time. Be ready to track and follow up.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Anyone who would make such a claim knows jack about ballistics or killing. Read up on ballistic coefficient, sectional density, and then check out the 7MM compared to the 30. In cartridges with similar capacity the 7MM compares nicely with the 30 cal. Compare 7-08/308, 280/30-06, 7STW/300win Mag. compare 150, 160, 180 grain projectiles. The guide is entitled to his opinion, he just happens to be wrong. I've shot a handful of elk with different 7's and 30's and they all died just the same. The only reason to choose a 30 over a 7 is if that particular rifle shoots better.

I never pay much attention to guides because they often deal with the lowest caliber of hunter and marksman and that makes a lot more difference than the caliber of the rifle.-------SS


----------



## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I have been told by more than one "_expert"_ that a bullet that's going too fast will "zip through without expanding". I've always wondered if that theory isn't the result of war surplus guns and ammo being used on deer just after WWII.


----------



## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I guess I should have clarified, the guide was talking with regards to "less than perfect shots", fatal shots, but not DRT shots. Both guys referred to the skin on an elk as being thicker, more elastic and easier to seal than say on a deer. Which I would have to agree with. So with the smaller faster bullets the potential for entrance and or exit wounds sealing up was greater. I'm very familiar with the ballistics, SD, BC and energy of calibers in question which is why I never doubted how well suited they were for the job. It just so happened that these two people whom I know well and respect mentioned the same things on the same day about the same caliber which got me to thinking. BP, my daughter currently shoots a .308 but IMO she can shoot better than it can perform on large game (elk) at extended range, thereby giving me an excuse to get me...Oh I mean HER a new gun :mrgreen: . I guess at the end of the day it comes down to, don't make a bad shot...But we all know shiz happens. I'm starting from the ground up so just about any and all calibers are options at this point providing then can be tamed down to around 16lbs of recoil with a muzzle break. Oh and somebody makes a Pro Hunter/Encore barrel in it.


----------



## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

My dad buys the Remington Corelokts off of he counter. I think the 7mm is an awesome elk killing round and it does it from a good distance too it also shoots really flat, but no matter what happens always mark exactly where the elk was that you shoot at and track it for a good long time with a 7mm. There have been deer that have been fatally hit with 7mm's that take a while to bleed. There is plenty of energy in the 150 grainers but sometimes they don't go right down.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I understand the "bigger hole" logic but I would say that it would take more than .024 inches to make much of a difference. Bullet construction will have way more impact on wound size than caliber. I say that if you want a bigger hole, upsize to the 35/37 caliber range. I personally like the 35 Whelen, but I'm a weirdo. My first question when talking elk is, "what bullet are you shooting?" I'd personally much rather have a premium bullet in 270 than a mediocre bullet in 30 cal. Think solid Copper, bonded, or partition construction bullets. I prefer the latter two because you get a nice combination of penetration and expansion. 7MM 160 Accubonds put nice big holes in elk. No problem with sealing back up in my experience. With the qualifier of a poor hit, bigger and faster bullets definitely have the advantage.-------SS


----------



## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

+1 for what Springville just said... Buying premium bullets is a lot better route than buying a new gun. I gotta agree that an accubond or bonded bullet is going to compensate for the minimal width.


----------



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

As usual, all we really have here is anecdotal evidence....one guys BS is as good as the next guys.
Build yourself...oh, I mean build her... what ever you like, and when you pull the trigger on that elk, it will either drop dead or you'll chase it all over the mountain...that's the story every time someone shoots an animal, no matter what they're shootin.:-?


----------



## EricH (May 3, 2014)

Not only do I think .284 is good enough I would go all the way down to .260 (6.5mm) on elk.


----------



## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Ive got a 6.5x284 I thought about letting her use for elk but then I wouldn't have a good reason to buy a new gun lol. Oh and personally, I feel its a little small for elk regardless of how many swedes killed moose with it.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Booya, since I know you reload I think the 7 RM will be great. I notice a big difference between the 150gr and the 168, 175gr bullets as far as recoil. I have a T3 Lite so recoil is a little high. Work her up a load with the 140-150 accubond and then have her practice banging out 2-3 shots quickly. I think she will be fine. Good guidance is a major part of it and she's got that!

She is welcome to try my 7 RM. I have various weights of factory ammo also. I am in ogden.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Any person who has done a lot of reloading and for any period of time will agree this guide is less than authoritative. The bullet weight, type and velocity can mean more in lethality than the caliber. With the proper bullet, speed and shot placement most calibers will be very deadly on elk. If you're shooting a bullet that has high velocity and doesn't expand well then you're going to have a problem regardless of whether it's a .270 or a .470. The flatter shooting rifles are somewhat more forgiving for not so good shooters as the amount of miss is usually less. Figure out what bullet you need to give you good expansion and you'll do just fine.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Of the same velocity, weight and construction, a .284 bullet will out penetrate a .30 caliber bullet, due to a higher Sectional Density (SD).


-DallanC


----------



## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

If you are shooting 140 grains that gun should dominate the .308 in pretty much every category of energy at any distance. I don't even know why the .308 is so popular given that barrel life on the 6.5x.284 is also pretty good. Your insane bench rest shooters do amazing with that round out to 1000 yards with less wind drift. 

If only Thompson made a barrel for the pro hunter in .325 WSM that would get my vote.


----------



## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I wouldn't hesitate to use my 7RM on elk at all... I also wouldn't hesitate to use my stepdad's 338 WM. Either would result with a dead elk on the ground. Like others have said before, the bullet construction is probably most important. 

If I were going to Alaska hunting big bears with a guide, and the guide told me he had caliber restrictions, I'd totally listen. And for good reason - their lives (and mine) are possibly on the line with a miss or wounded big brown.

For elk though, I think this comes down to actual marksmanship more than anything. When out on the hunt and a nice bull is found 400 yards out, are most hunters capable of actually making the shot? At that point, I don't think it matters if it's a 308, 7mm, or 338 - a poor shot is still a poor shot.


----------



## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Waspocrew, I couldn't agree more when it comes to marksmanship. It just so happens that she is a darn good shot who can deliver sub 1" groups with her .308 at 200 yards. Not to mention, she just took her cow elk with a double lung shot in 10-15 MPH wind at 408 yards. I'm getting a 7mm Mag barrel that I already had, threaded in the next week or so and plan on putting a Shrewd break on it. My hope is I can get at least 30% - 35% reduction in recoil out of it which will bring even a 160gr Accubond down to recoil levels lower than her .308. If it still ends up being to much for some reason, I'm prepared to have a 26" 280 Ackley barrel made by MGM. As I stated before, I am very familiar with the calibers SD, BC, velocities etc. and never doubted it until the day I created this post. Ive gone back and read tons of info as well as listened to all your opinions and feel comfortable once again with my decision. I know if she does her job, the 160gr .284 caliber Accubond will do its. Thanks for all the replies.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Just say'n






-DallanC


----------



## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Love that video, watched it so many times. Just makes me want to build another .243 lol


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Well, if elk have become impervious to .284 bullets since I killed the last of many elk, I guess I'll have to hang up my 280s and use a 25-06.....


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

25-06......THE rifleman's rifle. People who do to have one would never understand. Everyone should have a 25-06.------SS


----------



## Rspeters (Apr 4, 2013)

25- 06 has always been an intriguing caliber to me, someday I'll own one.


----------



## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

A few guys beat me to it, but after several conversations with folks at the range the last few years they swear by a 25-06 being the perfect rifle for teens and smaller frame adults.


----------



## HotWapities (Aug 26, 2010)

*7MM no problems*

One shot 100 Yards, 7MM with Barnes Triple-shock X Bullets in 150 Grain.
Somebody is feeding you a line of BS....


----------



## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

30-06-hunter said:


> A few guys beat me to it, but after several conversations with folks at the range the last few years they swear by a 25-06 being the perfect rifle for teens and smaller frame adults.


Or for kind of round medium-sized men that like that laser beam trajectory.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

^^^^^I resemble that remark!^^^^^


----------



## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

I think the 7mm is a great elk cartridge. I've killed and seen elk killed on numerous occasions with the 7mm, love mine.


----------



## digginfreek (Dec 5, 2007)

I've shot 5-6 elk with a .270, all one shot kills.
I've also used a 25-06, only took one shot also


----------



## jshuag (Jan 16, 2014)

I used to get sucked into discussions like this until I found an old copy of field and stream from decades ago. I was thumbing through it and it had a survey. "What is your go to caliber for hunting elk?" Guess which one was the top rated? - 30/30 - Yep the classic lever action saddle gun. I've always wondered why we all shoot larger calibers now. I am even guilty of it. (7mm rem mag) I can only conclude that there are fewer animals and more hunters so the equipment needs to perform better at greater distances. I've shot the 30/30 I have many times and have shot deer with it.. .. but. . .... I don't know if I would take it elk hunting. Of course I have no data to back this up other than my own word.


----------



## jshuag (Jan 16, 2014)

On the other hand save yourself the trouble. Just go get a 470 double barrel nitro express. Line up on an animal and let both barrels go at the same time. In this way you won't ever have to worry about being a bad shot again. :shock:


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I will add my thread in case anyone does future searches on this

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/100889-mooooooooo-bang.html


----------



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Cooky said:


> I have been told by more than one "_expert"_ that a bullet that's going too fast will "zip through without expanding". I've always wondered if that theory isn't the result of war surplus guns and ammo being used on deer just after WWII.


I shot a cow this year at an extremely close range (which tells me it was at high velocity) and I experienced the opposite. Over expansion, but still pass through and devastating organ damage. .270, 130gr Accubond

My son mortally wounded a deer with his .243 and then shot it in the neck at close range to finish it. Again, over expansion and not full pass through. .243, 100gr Core-Lokt.

So my theory is that added velocity is not always a good thing. That being said I am currently deciding between a 7mm and a 300 WSM as my dedicated " Elk gun". I feel either will do the job, but which can I comfortably shoot without recoil flinching because as most have said, accuracy is most important.


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> So my theory is that added velocity is not always a good thing. That being said I am currently deciding between a 7mm and a 300 WSM as my dedicated " Elk gun". I feel either will do the job, but which can I comfortably shoot without recoil flinching because as most have said, accuracy is most important.


I have one of each, the 7 is a BAR semiauto and the wsm a Savage 16, in theory the 7 should be a much lighter recoil, but that isnt the case even though the 7 is much heavier. I think the actual model of rifle makes a good difference too. Maybe it is just getting comfortable with a rifle too, but I dont seem to feel anything with the wsm after putting about 20 down the tube with teh brake turned off.


----------



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Huge29 said:


> I have one of each, the 7 is a BAR semiauto and the wsm a Savage 16, in theory the 7 should be a much lighter recoil, but that isnt the case even though the 7 is much heavier. I think the actual model of rifle makes a good difference too. Maybe it is just getting comfortable with a rifle too, but I dont seem to feel anything with the wsm after putting about 20 down the tube with teh brake turned off.


You suppose part of the increased recoil is due to the movement of the action on a semi-auto? I WAS set on the WSM but have started to drift towards the 7mm lately....aarrgggghh! I hate decisions!


----------

