# Utah Game Managment



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Note: This is not really to bash the DWR but it is criticism on how Utah's game has been handled. Its a little long but here we go:

This topic,http://utahwildlife.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9946 got me thinking about a few things I thought I would start a similar but sorta different post by going through each animal and what has happened over the years(IMO). Give your input on certain animals as well.

*Upland Game*

*Pheasant*
Pheasants are probably the first bird everyone thinks about when "disappointment" on an upland hunt comes to mind. Many seem to blame the loss in habitat, no cover, or things like that. None of those things help the pheasant population out any but there not the main cause and that's just something for the DWR to fall back on when hunters of Utah say their pheasant hunting sucks and just seems to be getting worse. The loss in habitat thing isn't helping Utah's pheasant population but it isn't dropping it down to the numbers we have today. Few pheasants will starve to death or die because of cold, there is still usually enough cover and food for a bird that weighs only one or two pounds at the most. The two real problems are to much hunting and predators. The hunting part has become obsolete because there are few birds left to shoot anyway. The true problem is very little to no predator control all over the state. The DWR does not do an antiquate job of controlling Utah's predator population or offering enough of a reward to people for killing predators. I have no problem killing them for free and I always have some type of trap out trying to get rid of a nasty old skunk, ****, or red fox, foot traps for yotes. There is a saying that "If a skunk breaks into a chicken coup it will kill one or two of them, but if a racoon breaks into a chicken coup it will kill until there all dead." That statement is plenty true and yes any skunk I see I kill because any saved pheasant or pheasant chick is worth one bullet to me. The DWR can't be fully blamed for this one I feel anyone who hunts pheasants or any fowl should be trying to trap and/or kill predators. Utah's pheasant population won't get any better unless the predators are contained and any sportsman who don't care to help the cause of killing a few predators for every pheasant they shoot shouldn't wine about the populations of Utah's upland game(mostly pheasants). To bad there isn't a rule before you can hunt upland game/waterfowl you have to kill at least 2 coyotes, skunks, racoons, or red foxes any combination to get 2. No real way to do that though. Closing down the hunt might even be a good idea for one year. Anyway without predator control I feel like Utah's pheasant population will go down before it goes up.

*Chukars*
Chukars are still doing okay but still not as good as they were for a few years there. There wouldn't be a day I would go out and not see at least 4 or 5 herds with at least 10 or more in them. The last couple years I have been lucky to see one bunch with 10 or 11 in it every few times I go hunting. Some of it is because of hunting but there is still the predator problem. And what did they do this year made the chukar hunt run 3 more weeks until Feb. 15. Its just pore managment. Soon the chukar will be known as the pheasant is now and the pheasant will be know here in Utah as extinct.

*Grouse*
Utah's grouse population seems to keep just spiraling downward getting worse and worse by the year. Not 4 or 5 years ago I could go out every weekend and get a bag limit. Every time I went deer hunting I couldn't go once without seeing 5-10 blue and ruffed grouse around. These days in the last 2 years I have probably seen 3 grouse, 1 ruffed, 2 blue. The places I once went and could have killed 30 in a day if I wanted hold nothing now. This year while I have been bowhunting I seen a total of 0 grouse. I walked into out of the way places and areas where I definently should have came across a few but that never happened. I feel the grouse in Utah are in deep trouble and the DWR could care less. What do they do? Lengthen the season a month longer for the 2008 grouse season. It's pitiful that I can go get a grouse. They were one of the only things that I could rely on always seeing and always being able to bag. I feel they often get shot for fun also, whether by bowhunters or someone driving by with a gun that has an egging to shoot something thats just sitting there. Grouse aren't that smart and I think a lot get picked off and let to rot outside of and inside the grouse season. Something needs to be done for grouse and soon.

*Dove*
Dove are doing okay I felt down about it for a while but after finally getting into a couple good bunches I feel like doves are still okay. The main reason they are still okay IMO is because they are migratory. I don't have a lot to say on doves but if you do go ahead.

*Rabbits*
I don't hunt rabbits but for anyone who dose put in your $.02 on things.

*I'll move on to Waterfowl, Big Game, etc. later.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Note: This is not really to bash the DWR...


Of course it is. There's not a soul on this forum whose knowledge is so far reaching and comprehensive as to enable an intelligent answer to the question, nor is there any answer that could possibly be constructive or useful in any way since you're comparing apples to oranges to buck snorts.

It's just an invitation to whine. Go hunting!


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

Good post. Plenty thought provoking for me anyway.

As for the pheasant decline, I blame predators, and I blame us. I think the DWR is doing their best to let us hunt them. Let me clarify. I live in West Haven, near Roy, I see pheasants almost every day. So, their numbers are good(IMO). I've even got one nearby that I've dubbed "basketball." 

As the "sprawl" continues, the pheasants move, and you can see multiple flocks sharing territory. This of course changes, when it's mating time, and that is when the entertainment begins!! :lol: 

I feel like the reason that the pheasant hunt sucks here, is that the birds on public lands are over pressured and are dealing with 4 legged predator issues. The other reason why it sucks, is that people here in Utah, are very protective about where they find game. That is lame(IMO), and it is further complicated by the fact that many people would like to make a buck off of you in the process. 

Personally, there are more birds to be had in the suburbs, and I think it would be sweet if the DWR, and/or the cities would let us pellet guns. I doubt that would ever happen though.

As for grouse, I see plenty. Maybe I have some really good spots, maybe I don't. All I know is that I took a limit last Saturday(for the first time mind you!), and I did it again tonight.

As for what to do about it, you got me. Personally, I feel like the predators are kinda of spiraling out of control, and if we don't do something about it, they will. I feel like it is a responsibility on my part to shoot predators on sight. I feel this way, because my hunting passion is anything with wings, and I would hate to not be able to have an upland or waterfowl hunt.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> #1DEER 1-I said:
> 
> 
> > Note: This is not really to bash the DWR...
> ...


No the intention of my post was not to bash the DWR but something isn't working. Its as simple as I have watched the pheasants, respectable mule deer bucks, grouse, rabbits,chukars,etc. get no attention brought to them and numbers decreasing. When the DWR releases pheasants or chukars in an area it is like there admitting that there are not enough wild ones to go around so thats not paying attention to the bird herds thats erasing your tracks of what you've done or been doing wrong. I have a few stretches of property(private&public) that I hunt pheasants on every year and every year it has gotten worse, less birds seen less tracks leading through the snow and little sign of an old wild rooster still strutting along a fence line or river side, sure I'll get a couple pheasants every year and every one I shoot I feel a little guilty doing it because I know he only one of few left. Chukars as I said only 4 or 5 years ago I could go up in a spot where there wasn't a night (and I went nearly every other night) I didn't see at least 30-40 chukars within 45 minutes of hunting, last season in the same area I saw a total of 2 herds with about 10 in each group over the period of the entire chukar hunt which ran until Jan 31st in my area. Now they have lengthened the chukar season to nearly a month longer, ya that makes sense bird numbers low season turns longer. Grouse were once so easy to see and find it was almost boring to hunt them where I live, now not only me but plenty other hunters I know have noticed a very significant decrease in numbers, it went from an endless supply to I seen a couple blues a couple months ago. Time for me to go for tonight I'll add more in the morning.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Petersen said:


> Raccoon and red fox populations have exploded over the past 30 years, and I'm sure that explosion has had a big effect on ground nesting birds like pheasants, but I wouldn't discount habitat loss like you did 1-I.
> 
> The valleys of this state used to be covered with small plots of farm land that were irrigated by ditches that ran alongside the fields where dense thickets grew. Today, half those plots are no longer farmed, and most of the rest have been consolidated into larger plots with pressurized irrigation systems.
> 
> ...


There's no doubt habitat loss has had an effect. But I live in an area that has miles upon miles upon miles of farm land and cover, and yet there are still no birds. The DWR has a wildlife managment area down around Sevier county that has loads of cover but no birds, it has an absolutely ridiculous amount of thistle and predators though. When I walk down next to the river bank the entire bank is littered with skunk, racoon, and fox droppings each an inch apart from each other. There is so many predators I can't see them ever getting back under control and plenty of hunters taking out whatever they don't get. The DWR needs to have something done about predators there are to many and if they want good conservation and a good reputation they need to try to help do something about it not leave it to the people who pay there salaries every year.


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

I agree there is a definite increase in predators, but IMO Loss of habitat for pheasants is #1. There may still be a lot of cover for birds, but pheasants are seed eaters, and need plenty of water. You usually won't see as many pheasants on dry farms because of the lack of water, even though there may be plenty of seed. Areas in the valley where there are large tracts of irrigated grain crops (particularly corn, wheat) still hold fair numbers of birds and appear to be able to hold their own against predators. Alfalfa and grasslands (pasture)provides cover and nesting, but no food. The other issue is because of technology improvements in irrigation, farmers have less waste water (weedy ditches, etc.), which means pheasants have less cover when moving from roosting areas to feeding areas making them more vulnerable to predators.
Grouse - IMO - There are more upland hunters pursuing grouse because it is harder to find good pheasant populations. When I was younger you never heard of hardly anyone walking all over the hills for birds when there were so many pheasants with easier walking in the valley. So there is an increase in hunting pressure on grouse. Grouse has always been hit and miss for me. A lot of country in them hills.


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## Great Basin Canada (May 7, 2008)

Petersen said:


> Raccoon and red fox populations have exploded over the past 30 years, and I'm sure that explosion has had a big effect on ground nesting birds like pheasants, but I wouldn't discount habitat loss like you did 1-I.
> 
> The valleys of this state used to be covered with small plots of farm land that were irrigated by ditches that ran alongside the fields where dense thickets grew. Today, half those plots are no longer farmed, and most of the rest have been consolidated into larger plots with pressurized irrigation systems.
> 
> ...


At the risk of sounding like I'm pontificating, the issue with pheasants in the state today is habitat (changes in farming practices, fragmentation of traditional pheasant areas and water issues). There is no question predators have some impact but the predator issue is more of a symptom than the real problem.

I have hunted in Utah since 1958 (and still do), worked for DWR (it was a Department when I signed on) and lived in the state for 30+ years. When I moved to Utah, dove seasons were only about 2 years old, forest grouse were hunted by elk and deer hunters (no real season) and the chukar program was still in its infancy.

Pheasant hunting was good even up to the mid '70s you could hunt in Howell Valley or Blue Creek and shoot a limit of roosters - most days you could also add some chukars and/or Huns to the bag. Access wasn't a problem and the habitat was diverse enough that you barely, alfalfa, water and escape cover intermixed. When the Soil Bank Program was in effect there were any number of days I could drive north from Thiokol to the interstate and count 100+ pheasants. Today farming practices are are different and the changes have not been beneficial to wildlife.

Habitat is Utah County and the GSL Valley has been encoroached upon by urban sprawl and most or the subdivisions took out large blocks of traditional pheasant habitat. The remaing habitat was broken up and birds were forced to use smaller areas. Look at locations like Farr West, Hooper and Layton in terms of where the traditional habitat was and how much of it is in housing developments today. The habitat isn't there to support large numbers of birds.

Lining irrigation ditches also had an impact; it changed habitat by eliminating seeps that created pockets of habitat and provided water to the birds and other wildlife.

In terms of existing habitat in areas that have been less effected the urban sprawl, the existing habitat is less valauble thatn it was when it weas broken up by a variety of habitat types. Large blocks of the same type of habitat (mono-types) simply lack the appeal and value that more diversified habitat does.

In terms of predators: Predation on healthy populations of birds or animals in normally compensatory. In other words it replaces normal mortality that occurs naturally. However, when populations are depressed or habitat is fragmented the predation often becomes additive and does have an adverse impact on populations. The appearance of foxes and raccoons was another "rock in the knapsack", particularly in areas where the habitat was brken into smaller chunks. Both species are methodical hunters and are very adept at hunting a piece of habitat throughly and taking nesting birds and/or eggs. Their style of hunting is different from a coyote who typically blunders along and takes whatever it can scare up.

Predator control can be effective in limited areas for a limited period of time. However, it's labor intensive, expensive and is a short term fix. I doubt DWR or the State Department of Ag has the money to take on a statewide predator control program. I doubt there is a short term fix to the problem, unless some how habitat is increased and existing habitat improved.

I'm not trying to defend DWR's position but I know the agency and know they do not have a budget to support a statewide predator control program. Unfortunately, I remember back in the late "60s when DWR and the other State Game and Fish Agencies in the West got behing the curve on mule deer management and people are still working on that problem.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Great Basin Canada said:


> Petersen said:
> 
> 
> > Raccoon and red fox populations have exploded over the past 30 years, and I'm sure that explosion has had a big effect on ground nesting birds like pheasants, but I wouldn't discount habitat loss like you did 1-I.
> ...


I can see how many may be fooled by the explanation of habitat loss, different farming methods, etc. But around where I live there's plenty of land and diversity. Within the 5 square miles of where I run land, there is: alfalfa, dry cattail, corn, sage brush, bullberry bushes, grass pastures, oats,trees with berries I have seen in pheasants while cleaning them and occasionally wheat. Around where my land is we still use ditch flood irrigation which constantly has leftover water in the ditch or a pond some of the water ran into. Ditchbanks have cover year round and the sage brush makes for great winter cover. This leads me to believe there is something more to the reason that there are no pheasants.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I am on board with you 1eye, but only for your area. Up north here the agricultural practices have changed things a lot as far as habitat goes. My dad grew up down that way, and he tells me of the days when there were sanctuaries set aside for the birds. I guess they were fairly large (but not huge) tracts of uncultivated land that were left alone to overgrow in willows, tumbleweeds, and other thick roosting and loafing cover, and there was no hunting allowed in them. The birds knew they could go there to hide. A re-institution of those couldn't hurt, but it would be too expensive for the state. I know the WMA you referred to down there. We have seen birds in there in years past, even shot a couple, but its been a long time since we saw one in there. And you are right, it is overrun by thistles and predators. We see the same things as we walk the ditches too. Tons of raccoon and skunk tracks everywhere. I would not be opposed to taking them out if I saw them, but both of those creatures are nocturnal, and we usually don't see them out hunting during the day. The other predator down there is feral cats. We see more of those than we do foxes and stuff. Magpies are nest robbing thieves. We saw 2 VERY fat coyotes run out of an area we wanted to hunt last year as well. Believe me, buddy; If I lived down there we'd be controlling one predator or another everyday! I guess us upland hunters should all get into predator hunting in the off-season. But the habitat changes are undeniable. They are there. Habitat has changed in the last 50 years, and my dad and others can vouch for it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

There is nowhere near the number of ditches today, they are irrigated mostly with wheel lines and pivots. I remember the long nights irrigating, I was glad when we went to hand lines and wheel lines.

The number of foxes, hawks, skunks, eagles is way up from back in the day. Skunks and hawks have had HUGE impacts on pheasant populations. Thank the ban of DDT for the big increase in hawk numbers.


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## Califbowmen (Jul 1, 2008)

At home here in California while growing up and hunting in the early 60's, pheasants were so thick , you thought you were in South Dakota. Pesticides, clean farming (Removing all cover from ditches, fence lines, clearing wild cover, etc) and predators took it's toll. If more was done to get land into the CRP and offer at least some incentive to remove skunks, possum, racoons, etc, you might increase the pheasant and other gamebird populations. Of course this all takes funding from the DWR and public support.


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## hunter_orange13 (Oct 11, 2008)

i thnk we manage animals greatly

every year when we hunt grouse, we see more and more coyotes and ALOT less grouse 

and deer, people need to let the deer grow bigger!


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## uthntr (Feb 19, 2008)

Why does almost everyone think that the deer in Utah are managed poorly? Its not true. They are managed a lot better than some other bordering states. I think the ones complaining just need to do some hiking and get off roads and see what Utah really has out there. Even the northern region holds some great bucks.


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