# what an awesome weekend it was indeed!



## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

We walked up to the 'honey hole' Friday evening to do some glassing and get a general idea of what the elk were doing for their morning and evening routines, hiked around Saturday, and came home this morning. There were more elk in this area than I have ever seen, we counted almost 70 within a 2.5 mile radius Friday evening alone, not much for bulls though but it's still early. Best part about it is we only saw 6 people all day Saturday, and then saw Bullwinkle on the walk out this morning just munching away up on the hillside. I'm excited to see so many healthy elk in there, and with far less pressure in this area their numbers will continue to thrive. I may go look at another spot for a decent bull if nothing bigger shows itself, but it's nice knowing where I can harvest an animal if needed.

Good luck everyone and please be safe out there!


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## Billy3136 (May 31, 2015)

Great update 30-06! I look forward to seeing what you pull out of there. If you need some help processing one, let me know. I can help


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## bamacpl (Jun 1, 2010)

I'd keep info like that to yourself.....if your not careful you'll have every joe bag of donuts in your spot. The Internet has ruined hunting!


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

bamacpl said:


> I'd keep info like that to yourself.....if your not careful you'll have every joe bag of donuts in your spot. The Internet has ruined hunting!


Exactly!-->also you shouldn't post pictures about your hunt, or talk about it at all. Many of us would appreciate it because we are looking out for you and your 'spot', we want to make sure you have the spot all to yourself--wait a minute...the DWR has guaranteed that for you. All the same you should probably not talk about any of it.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Nice. Cant wait for the hunts to roll around. Sounds like you got something to look forward to.


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## gmanhunter (Dec 27, 2007)

Sounds like a great hunt. Hope you can get a chance at a big one.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

bamacpl said:


> I'd keep info like that to yourself.....if your not careful you'll have every joe bag of donuts in your spot. The Internet has ruined hunting!


I was careful to leave out any details pertinent to location. And love the avatar!


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Nice. Cant wait for the hunts to roll around. Sounds like you got something to look forward to.


I am mostly just happy to see so many healthy animals, watching their behavior Friday evening and listening to the calves communicate back and forth with the cows was priceless. It will be a fun and productive season for sure regardless if I get onto a branched bull or not.


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## bamacpl (Jun 1, 2010)

Airborne said:


> Exactly!-->also you shouldn't post pictures about your hunt, or talk about it at all. Many of us would appreciate it because we are looking out for you and your 'spot', we want to make sure you have the spot all to yourself--wait a minute...the DWR has guaranteed that for you. All the same you should probably not talk about any of it.


See what I mean.....
Keyboard badasses like this


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

totes


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

from the info given, I've already been able to find your spot on google earth!


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

utahgolf said:


> from the info given, I've already been able to find your spot on google earth!


I swear your real name is Magnum PI!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

30-06-hunter said:


> I am mostly just happy to see so many healthy animals, watching their behavior Friday evening and listening to the calves communicate back and forth with the cows was priceless. It will be a fun and productive season for sure regardless if I get onto a branched bull or not.


Clearly you're mistaken. We don't have any healthy animals in Utah. All of our critters are selenium deficient-poison licking-overbitten-lop balled zombies and if you eat one you'll die of AIDS via tapeworm contraction


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

^^^johnnycake wins the interwebs today


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> Clearly you're mistaken. We don't have any healthy animals in Utah. All of our critters are selenium deficient-poison licking-overbitten-lop balled zombies and if you eat one you'll die of AIDS via tapeworm contraction


Yes and never argue with an internet keyboard warrior with a high school education and a PhD in Google.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

...and I'd like to thank my momma, I'd never have developed such an acerbic case of smart mouth without your beatings....and I'd like to thank Lonetree for the list of references who refuse to acknowledge that they know him....and I'd like to thank Don Peay for being the Savior of Sportsmen everywhere. 
>>What are you going to do next, Johnny?
I'm gonna go shoot a famous Lion, I'm still deciding between Simba and Jericho.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

My vote is simba


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Put me down for Simba.

.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

johnnycake said:


> I'm gonna go shoot a famous Lion, I'm still deciding between Simba and Jericho.


Utah's most famous lion is Cosmo. Half of the state would hate you, the other half.....................................................................................not so much.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I took care of Cosmo a few years ago... And promptly accepted my full ride law scholarship to the U.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake, you are a fine American!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

After a couple years in the freezer I finally got him to the taxidermist a month ago. Should be done and possibly on display at the Western Hunting Expo

Just in time for me to leave him at my dad's house and us to move to Alaska....


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> ....and I'd like to thank Lonetree for the list of references who refuse to acknowledge that they know him....


Why don't you post up those responses?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

The fact that there are NO responses would be a refusal to acknowledge, no?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

So they refused to acknowledge you? :mrgreen: I got emails, much like I suggested I would. They have more important things to do, than answer your inquiries.

To help satiate your infatuation with me and my "credentials".....

It reads from the bottom up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


 John Mionczynski
Mar 26
 To 

 Josh
Yes, Josh, I think the lipid peroxidation (free-radical) effect is a reasonable hypothesis I've wondered about but didn't have the data to bring into the overall picture. Increasing GPx with a corresponding decrease in GSH and Se would be a good detail to look for in support of the 2,4D connection. Our data kept telling us that water saturation of alpine soil lowering the oxidation-reduction potential even when adjusted for the NO3/NO2 additions was not quite enough to produce the level of Se deficiency we were seeing. We kept saying 'there has to be another factor we're not seeing'. I had suggested more detailed analysis of rainfall and soil for other airborn contaminants but the funding just wasn't there for that sort of thing. This may be a significant part of the picture. ...and who knows how many other pieces there are to this puzzle!

I still believe the basic foundational components to the massive Whiskey Mt. die-off of 90-91 were 1.) minimal winter snow allowing the herd to go up to Se deficient habitat at 10'500 ft.(granitic soil) for long enough time (6 weeks ) to run down Se reserves in adults. 2.) extreme cold temps (-25*) and wind pushing the compromised T4 deiodinase enzyme (a selenoprotein) reserves to the limit of production. The ability of the thyroid to meet the challenge of maintaining body temperature at those conditions, with restricted T4 production, plummeted rapidly followed by a multi-pathogenic pneumonia, the usual result in stressed sheep with an already compromised immune response, which they would have had on such a low Se diet.

The Whiskey Mt. herd was exposed to a ****tail of herbacides for 2 years prior to this die-off when Game and Fish Dept. sprayed the winter range for mat forming plants in an effort to encourage native grasses. I believe I saw 2,4D on that list but it was many years ago.

Thanks again Josh! There are lot's of pieces to this puzzle!
John

 On Monday, March 23, 2015 8:36 PM, Josh <[email protected]> wrote:


John


This makes sense. I think that part of what is going on, because of the herbicide exposure is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postpartum_thyroiditis Selenium supplementation has been shown to decrease this, see below.



Judy Hoy in MT has necropsied hundreds of animals, and shrunken thymus and dilated lymphatic vessels show up alot. Most of these are road killed animals, and the rates of, and observed external deformities(under bite is a congenital hypothyroidism affect, with a nitrate connection), are almost exactly the same as in deer here in Utah exposed to road side spaying of Veteran 720(2,4-D and Dicamba(Banvel)) I am pretty sure that is what is getting used in MT, but I have not confirmed it yet. There are also thyroid conditions brought on through lymph system issues as well. 2,4-D has been implicated in Lymphoma, and hypothyroidism. 



Selenium connection: http://thyroid.about.com/library/weekly/aa072000a.htm
"Regarding the thyroid, selenium is a component of the enzyme that helps convert T4 to T3 peripherally, so deficiencies of selenium may impair thyroid function and promote hypothyroidism."


From this: http://www.drwells.net/nutrition/topics/Hypothyroid.htm

"A high TSH and low T4 and T3 indicate thyroid gland disease. 
High T4 to T3 ratio (T7) or a high r-T3 (another rare test) are suggestive of peripheral cellular resistance as these levels indicate a decreased conversion of T4 to T3. Decreased conversion may also be due to selenium deficiency or mercury toxicity."


And from this: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/777483

"Although clinical applications still need to be defined for Hashimoto's disease, they are very interesting for pregnant women given that supplementation(selenium) significantly decreases the percentage of postpartum thyroiditis and definitive hypothyroidism."

2,4-D and thyroid: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17651757

"Environmental contaminants interfere with thyroid function including 60% of all herbicides, in particular 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D)"

From this: http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Applicators_in_the_Agricultural_Health_Study

"There was increased odds of hypothyroidism with ever use of the herbicides 2,4-D"

From this: http://www.ehjournal.net/content/7/1/50

"It has also been reported that 2,4-D induced neurotoxicity may be partly due to generation of free radicals. When incubating rat cerebellar granule cells with 2,4-D _in vitro_, glutathione (GSH) levels and catalase activity were significantly reduced, whereas generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) and activity of selenium-glutathione peroxidase (Se-GPx) were augmented" Citation for this:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17449452?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

So you introduce 2,4-D into sheep winter range, they eat it. Se-GPx is activated to protect against the affects of 2,4-D, which depletes Se, along with glutathione. And you then couple environmental conditions that deplete selenium feed levels, and everything falls apart. The resulting selenium deficiency is most likely responsible for the thyroid conditions, as selenium supplementation has been shown to decrease post partum thyroiditis.

I can't make it dove tail any better.

Thanks, Josh

 *From:* John Mionczynski <[email protected]**********.com>
*To:* Josh <[email protected]> 
*Sent:* Monday, March 23, 2015 5:46 PM
*Subject:* Re: Pesticides/pnuemonia


Josh, 
Very interesting stuff! Please keep me in the loop on this subject!

In reguard to se deficiency in bighorn. There seems to be very little indication of symptoms in lambs until somewhere between the 5th and 6th week after parturition. Literature on domestic sheep fits well into the bighorn observations. That is: Se in the pregnant female when dwindling, is removed from the primary storage areas (liver; and bone marrow) and shunted to the milk creating a severe deficit in the mother while allowing the lamb to prosper during it's most critical growth phase and when the lamb is still dependant on it's mothers' milk for most of it's nutrition. If the diet is sufficiently deficient in Se this reserve will run out about the 6th week after birth. If the deficit is severe enough the the mother will begin craving minerals (eating fence posts for livestock), (migrating to mineral licks for wild sheep) leaving the lambs behind as they are no longer ambulatory and often exhibit breathing difficulties (frank clinical WMD [White Muscle Disease]) This is the phase where all of the local predators begin to focus in on the lambs and pick them off and all of this is what I observed. If the ewes make it back in time they will try to defend but with a lamb that can't stand up, their efforts are often only temporary. In '98 I saw the progression of symptoms in the Whiskey Mt herd go from Stiffness in the hind legs, to failure of the clidio-brachial muscle with subsequent inability of the shoulders to support the front end, to inability to stand, in less than 12 hours. Breathing difficulties (failure of the diaphram to maintain sufficient intake of air) occured a few hours later.

Predation at this stage was almost always the cause of death,usually within a day or two, unless the mother returned from the mineral lick in time. If the lamb could suckle after the mother returned from the lick it could recover apparently completely within 2 to 3 hours( [a phase of the syndrome refered to as SRD (Selenium Responsive Disorder]), although milk production (i.e. udder size), and suckling time (the number of seconds of actual suckling of milk) began decreasing dramatically at this time.Under these conditions weaning would occur in mid-August rather than late September or early October, which is the norm for this herd. The few surviving lambs (9/100 as opposed to 35/100[the long-term average]) were stunted and apparently susseptable to illness at a higher rate than normal based on crude empiricle observation (mine).

hope this helps Josh!
Keep up this very important work you are doing!
John
(sorry this took so long. I've been in the Mohave Desert taking a little kayack vacation on Lake Mohave.The phone does not work there!)


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