# Dangerous Dogs



## Ironman

> *Man saves brother by killing dog*
> 
> A Salt Lake man is recovering from a dog attack. Police say his brother had to kill the animal to stop it.
> 
> Salt Lake police say the dog, a pit bull, attacked the man at a home in Ouray Avenue after he tried to let it out to the backyard.
> 
> When officers arrived, the dog was latched on the man's hand. "The brother of the person that was attacked first tried punching the dog to get it to release his brother. When that didn't work, he actually grabbed a knife and stabbed the dog. That still didn't end the attack," said detective Jeff Bedard, spokesman for the Salt Lake Police Department.
> 
> Bedard says that's when the brother put the dog in a choke hold, eventually killing it. No one else was hurt. http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=2994751


I'm sure this will spark debate, it always seems to. 
I know there are "nice" pitbulls that would not hurt a fly :roll: . Many Pitbull owners point to the statistic that most dog bites in the US are from Labs. The above article shows the reason the Lab is not as dangerous, even though it may bite more people (having more Labs then any other breed increases the odds too). I've never heard of a Lab latching on and not letting go until it was killed...but I have heard numerous Pitbull accounts to that effect.


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## truemule

I have grown up around many labs and even been bitten a few time but it never concerned me. On the other hand I was doing some work for a lady that had a pit. It latched on to the back of me and had she not been there to talk me out of it, he would be dead. Pitbulls are not a safe breed to have around because of there unpredictability and potential damage they can cause if they bite. It seems when they bite or attack it is more vicious and last longer than ony other dog I have ever seen bite/attack.


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## Gumbo

Growing up in Texas I had friends who owned pit bulls. All their dogs were wonderful, loving animals. But they're still pit bulls, and they have the propensity cause harm. They might be the perfect pet 99.999 percent of the time. But that one .001 percent, somebody might get seriously injured or even killed.


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## girlsfishtoo

Wow I never knew that about Labs. I grew up with Labs; 3 yellows, 2 choclates, and 4 blacks. Never once was I ever worried about any of those dogs biting anyone in our family. My brothers all have small children, let me tell you I have never seen another dog take the stuff that those kids did sometimes.


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## threshershark

Most bites coming from labs isn't really because the breed is aggressive or known for biting. This is simply because labs vastly outnumber all other breeds in the US. The last time I looked at AKC numbers, there were about 155,000 registered labs in the country, and the next closest breed was Golden Retriever at about 65,000. Keep in mind that labs are also widely "backyard" bred, and many are never registered. Breeds like the pit bull don't even make the top 10.


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## Ironman

This is fitting!


> *Woman Bites Dog Who Attacked Her Dog *
> 
> MINNEAPOLIS (AP) - Amy Rice feared for her dog's life when a pit bull jumped over a fence into her yard and attacked her pooch. So she took matters into her own mouth.
> 
> Rice says she bit the pit bull on the nose Friday after trying to pull the dog's jaws off her Labrador retriever, Ella. The dog had jumped a fence to get into Rice's northeast Minneapolis yard, and Rice says she feared the pit bull would kill Ella.
> 
> Rice says she drew blood when she bit the dog, and her doctor will have to determine whether she should get shots for rabies.
> 
> The pit bull was quarantined. Ella is recovering with staples and stitches to her head and a crushed ear canal. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=333&sid=2997231


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## Mojo1

Breeding is the problem, Labs are breed for fighting, Pits are. I can't remember the exact numbers but I believe Pits have one of the top bite strengths out there. You guys are do to the numbers of Labs out there, statically they will have more incidents of biting, but when have you ever heard of one mauling a person? 

I don't like the aggressive breeds, and don't see any to own one, especially around kids, accident waiting to happen.


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## girlsfishtoo

Although this story happened in a persons back yard, this is a prime example of why I don't like taking my dogs anywhere. There are too many people who just don't care if there dog is kept in their yard, on a leash. I have had way too many close calls with dogs running up to mine trying to instagate things. At Strawberry I was walking with my husband and our German Short Hair and Black and Tan **** Hound, to the boat for the night fish, there was a family staying up the loop from us who had a dog that was constantly running out of their campsite as people walked by. As we were walking down to the boat the dog runs out barking, snaping and snarling behind me. That dog was lucky that I was able to lift up and my Black and Tan **** Hound had a choke collar on, because she really wanted to get him. The dog then took off after my husband and the German Short Hair, Butch, he turned around and with one nip the dog took of whimpering. I hate to see that happen but people really need to learn how to keep track of their dogs.


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## Mojo1

girlsfishtoo said:


> Although this story happened in a persons back yard, this is a prime example of why I don't like taking my dogs anywhere. There are too many people who just don't care if there dog is kept in their yard, on a leash. I have had way too many close calls with dogs running up to mine trying to instagate things. At Strawberry I was walking with my husband and our German Short Hair and Black and Tan **** Hound, to the boat for the night fish, there was a family staying up the loop from us who had a dog that was constantly running out of their campsite as people walked by. As we were walking down to the boat the dog runs out barking, snaping and snarling behind me. That dog was lucky that I was able to lift up and my Black and Tan **** Hound had a choke collar on, because she really wanted to get him. The dog then took off after my husband and the German Short Hair, Butch, he turned around and with one nip the dog took of whimpering. I hate to see that happen but people really need to learn how to keep track of their dogs.


I here that, I especially like the people in my neighborhood who just turn their dog out to run loose for some exercise, animal control can't be everywhere all the time.


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## Huge29

My insurance company simply will not insure a home with a rott, pit or doberman; I think that that covers all of the worthless waste of space dogs in the world. I see no point in having one of those dang dogs; I would not hesitate to kill one if it ever were in my yard or acting aggressive towards me or my family members.


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## coolgunnings

Huge29 said:


> My insurance company simply will not insure a home with a rott, pit or doberman; I think that that covers all of the worthless waste of space dogs in the world. I see no point in having one of those dang dogs; I would not hesitate to kill one if it ever were in my yard or acting aggressive towards me or my family members.


Kill them all and let god sort them out.


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## jahan

Huge29 said:


> My insurance company simply will not insure a home with a *rott*, pit or doberman; I think that that covers all of the *worthless waste of space dogs *in the world. I see no point in having one of those dang dogs; I would not hesitate to kill one if it ever were in my yard or acting aggressive towards me or my family members.


I am going to have to disagree with you on the rott, sorry! I understand what everyone is saying about the Pitts, because they can turn on a dime. I don't know anything about Doberman's, but I can assure you rott's are good dogs. The family that watches my 9 month old boy has a 115 lb. rott. I was a little nervous at first, but by being around the dog for some time now, that is literally the best behaved dog I have ever been around. It goes and lays in front of the stairs if any of the children try to go up the stairs. It acts almost like another baby sitter. I know they are not all like this, but rott's don't have that switch that Pitt's do.


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## proutdoors

I have been bit by several different breeds of dogs, they think the 'phone man' is a chew toy I suppose, and I'll take a bite from a lab over a pit EVERY day of the week. A lab will bite and then back off, a pit bites and 'locks' on and rips flesh. When I had to get into backyards I ALWAYS carried pepper spray, and I have had pits 'take' the whole cannister before backing down. Most dogs back off with a small amount of spray. I will NOT allow ANY pit around my children, EVER!


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## 12 Volt Man

I've usually been on the side of responsible dog owners. I grew up around a couple of neighborhood pits that were lovers. I wouldn't hesitate to own one if I decided I wanted to. That being said, I don't trust most of them unless I know how they were raised. 

Strange thing. I saw two strays out loose today one in Bountiful and one in my neighborhood. Both pit bulls. For some reason I'm seeing more around my stomping grounds. I did tell the kids if they saw that dog around, they needed to get inside.


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## Nibble Nuts

jahan said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My insurance company simply will not insure a home with a *rott*, pit or doberman; I think that that covers all of the *worthless waste of space dogs *in the world. I see no point in having one of those dang dogs; I would not hesitate to kill one if it ever were in my yard or acting aggressive towards me or my family members.
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to have to disagree with you on the rott, sorry! I understand what everyone is saying about the Pitts, because they can turn on a dime. I don't know anything about Doberman's, but I can assure you rott's are good dogs. The family that watches my 9 month old boy has a 115 lb. rott. I was a little nervous at first, but by being around the dog for some time now, that is literally the best behaved dog I have ever been around. It goes and lays in front of the stairs if any of the children try to go up the stairs. It acts almost like another baby sitter. I know they are not all like this, but rott's don't have that switch that Pitt's do.
Click to expand...

So how are you sure about the rotts because your kids babysitter has one. What experience do you have with pits? I've never seen my pit turn on a dime. I've only seen her act weary with people who are acting strange themselves. She is predictable, loves women and children, is weary of strngers who are grown men, and hates other dogs. Sad thing is that there are too many people who are unwilling to acknowledge that their pit/rot is a weapon. It is foolish to let any capable breed run around unleashed outside or unsupervised around children. That's not a liability I'd be willing to take. THis topic, I've noticed, tends to bring out the lame assses who talk about how tough they are when they pull a gun. Its like talking up how your going to hit a woman or a child, it doesn't make you ****t, so cut the tough talk.


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## Loke

I have met several people that are *responsible* pit bull and rottweiler owners. they are the first to acknowledge that their dogs have the potential to cause a great deal of damage if something were to go wrong. The ones that say that *their dog* is an angel and would never hurt a fly, and let the dog roam the neighborhood are the ones that have no business owning any dog, let alone one that was designed to be a tenacious fighter. It all comes down to understanding the capabilities of your pet, and controlling them in a responsible manner. Just as you wouldn't leave a loaded M60 machine gun on your front porch unattended, neither should you let your dog (regardless of the breed) roam the neighborhood.


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## Huge29

jahan said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My insurance company simply will not insure a home with a *rott*, pit or doberman; I think that that covers all of the *worthless waste of space dogs *in the world. I see no point in having one of those dang dogs; I would not hesitate to kill one if it ever were in my yard or acting aggressive towards me or my family members.
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to have to disagree with you on the rott, sorry! I understand what everyone is saying about the Pitts, because they can turn on a dime. I don't know anything about Doberman's, but I can assure you rott's are good dogs. The family that watches my 9 month old boy has a 115 lb. rott. I was a little nervous at first, but by being around the dog for some time now, that is literally the best behaved dog I have ever been around. It goes and lays in front of the stairs if any of the children try to go up the stairs. It acts almost like another baby sitter. I know they are not all like this, but rott's don't have that switch that Pitt's do.
Click to expand...

My limited experience with the rotts is the white trash druggie neighbor's that barks at me everytime that I am outside; I reckon that she is more a victim of the surroundings more than instinct.


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## ZEKESMAN

Pits are gladiators and need to be treated as such.If someone breaks into yor home to hurt your family by the time you wake up get your gun and find out whats going on,a pit will have settled things with the bad guys.if any of you have ever owned one you would know that they would willingly give up their life to protect you and your loved ones.IMHO
Vic


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## ZEKESMAN

P.S most of these breeds git a bad name because of the pieces of s#-- that want to think they are tough so they get a tough dog and make it mean.


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## Huge29

ZEKESMAN said:


> P.S most of these breeds git a bad name because of the pieces of s#-- that want to think they are tough so they get a tough dog and make it mean.


I think you are on to it there, they certainly are a reflection of how they are raised, and in my limited experience of seeing who owns them, they generally are raised to be fairly aggressive.



Nibble Nuts said:


> THis topic, I've noticed, tends to bring out the lame assses who talk about how tough they are when they pull a gun. Its like talking up how your going to hit a woman or a child, it doesn't make you ****, so cut the tough talk.


Please clarify before I take this the wrong away how what you said relates to the previous posts. :wink:


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## Ironman

My Father-in-law told me this story recently. 
He works with a guy that owned a boxer and a pit. Both apparently grew up in the home together, never any problems with either. One day the he goes home to find the Boxer mutilated...still alive but mutilated beyond recognition other than it was a furry mammal of some sort. The Pit covered in blood (unhurt). Luckily, the owner was responsible and had them BOTH put down.
This was that "good" "calm" Pit that was "treated nicely" and was "part of the family". The guy's just lucky it was a boxer and not a baby that was attacked. Indeed, Pits are fantastic guard dogs that will kill and die for you...one just better hope it doesn't think you're being attacked when grandma comes to visit for the first time in a few years and goes to give you a hug.


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## Nibble Nuts

So your information comes from a story of a guy your father in law works with. Yeah, you sound like a reputable source to me. :roll: His first mistake was to leave the two dogs alone together. You never do that with pits. As far as equating there natural inclination to fight other dogs with killing children, you show that you have no experience and know not what you speak of. You assume they have the lack of discretion found in many other species of dog.


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## Duurty1

Ironman said:


> My Father-in-law told me this story recently.
> He works with a guy that owned a boxer and a pit. Both apparently grew up in the home together, never any problems with either. One day the he goes home to find the Boxer mutilated...still alive but mutilated beyond recognition other than it was a furry mammal of some sort. The Pit covered in blood (unhurt). Luckily, the owner was responsible and had them BOTH put down.
> This was that "good" "calm" Pit that was "treated nicely" and was "part of the family". The guy's just lucky it was a boxer and not a baby that was attacked. Indeed, Pits are fantastic guard dogs that will kill and die for you...one just better hope it doesn't think you're being attacked when grandma comes to visit for the first time in a few years and goes to give you a hug.


the boxer should have kicked the pits a$$


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## Duurty1

I had a puppy german sheppard killed by a loose pit, and when animal control brought the dog by the house to identify him he about broke out of the crate trying to get after me


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## Huge29

Nibbles,
Why are you so testy on this? Let us know your thoughts vs being the source police in discrediting anyone without a notarized legitimized experience with condescending comments as if you need a degree to speak on the topic? This is a forum of hunters and fishermen for the most part, not an academic institution; we can share our ignorance as much as we feel the need; can't we? But as long as you are on the rant about critiquing things that don't seem to make sense:


Nibble Nuts said:


> His first mistake was to leave the two dogs alone together. You never do that with pits. ... You assume they have the lack of discretion found in many other species of dog.


 Maybe I am mistaken, but don't you contradict your first statement by the latter? If they do have discretion like any other dog, why do you recommend that we treat them differently?

If you need proof that the dogs do attack; here you go:








http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-md.ci.pitbull23oct23,0,7163330.story








It is quite comical how hundreds of owners of these dogs post videos of them being nice and they title the video as a vicious attack, kind of funny. There are 57,400 hits under "pit bull attack." The stats on the attacks and their population is tough to discern as many different breeds are often considered to be American Pit Bull Terrier, but are not, many are called some names that are not even recognized by the AKC.


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## Nibble Nuts

Fair enough Huge, I will respond. 
THis is a topic that brings alot of hype and sensationalism form both sides. It gets hard to tell what the truth is about alot of these attacks.
It gets old dealing with people who immediately get self righteous against pits and them start talking about how they are going to pull a gun on one or their owner if they ever come across one. I myself have had people threaten to kill me for owning one. It gets old. It is also tiring of hearing people try and shove it in your face like ironman did by saying things like this is the pit that was supposedly "kind" and "treated well" and "part of the family". So if you want a kind response, change your way of addressing the issue also. 
I said the first mistake was to leave that dog alone with the boxer because even though a pit may tolerate other dogs, there are going to be times that they start playing rough with the other dog and then their natural tendencies to fight other dogs come out. To think that tendency is not there is a mistake, and I dislike owners taking that approach with pits. However to equate this with attacking people is off base. It has never been proven at any time that dog on dog aggression equals people aggression. You’d be surprised at how discerning pits are, and they don’t act towards humans the way they do other dogs. So no, that is not a contradiction. 
I hope those pics don’t give you a sense of false security. That is how the end result is of many dog attacks, not just pits. Look at the pics of other dog attacks and you will see the same carnage. I hope you wouldn’t trust a dog with children based on the notion that it is a safer dog because it is not a pit. I guarantee that should the dog attack, it will not be pretty regardless of its breed.
Dogs roaming the streets or being around children unsupervised should never be tolerated. Leaving pits with other dogs is a bad mistake I see too many people make and then they are surprised when a fight does break out. Then they erroneously assume that the dog is a human killer as well. Spaying or neutering makes a huge difference also. By far the great majority of dog attacks come from an intact male. Unless it is going to be bred, neuter the thing. 
The stats are hard to interpret because there are many dogs that get classified as pits, some of which do not even resemble them at all. I’ve read accounts from police officers about breaking up dog fights and someone get bit by a non-pit, yet it hits the media as being a pit. I read one case where the alleged pit was actually a border collie. I talked to a guy who used to be a reporter. He told me the company he worked for would use pits as a default name to report any attack from an unidentified dog. The truth and the lies become too intertwined to be useful. Responsible ownership of all dogs should be encouraged, and getting rid of a certain type won’t make dogs any safer. I can go on and on about this subject, but I don’t have the time and I don’t know where to begin or end. The hype gets old though.


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## Huge29

Nibble Nuts said:


> It gets old dealing with people who immediately get self righteous against pits and them start talking about how they are going to pull a gun on one or their owner if they ever come across one. I myself have had people threaten to kill me for owning one. It gets old. It is also tiring of hearing people try and shove it in your face like ironman did by saying things like this is the pit that was supposedly "kind" and "treated well" and "part of the family". So if you want a kind response, change your way of addressing the issue also.


Now that I see where you come from I can appreciate your responses much better, but I do not see any insinuation of self righteousness (I qualified my statement very well); I assume that you are referring to my comment about me not hesitating to shoot one if it was aggressive towards me or my family; I would guess that any gun owner would echo the same sentiment. I have no idea how that has anything to do with righteousness? 
I am having a little hard time with you attacking Ironman, reportedly the dog was a part of the family and nearly killed the other dog, that seems believable; I think you are trying to dispute a story that you do not like, I guess.
I think we agree on most of this topic, neutering certainly helps with most breeds, havent you noticed what it has done for fixed blade, he does not hump nearly as many legs anymore. :mrgreen: Someone threatening to kill you; I will bet a nickel that there is a lot more to that story involving you being what others interpreted as an irrresponsible god owner; just my thoughts.
I will let you respond and then I will not respond to you again, I don't want to turn this into a debate, simply want to share some ideas. I will share with you two experiences that you can't degrade by the chain of custody so to speak; both involve my work at AutoZone. Each involves irresponsible dog owners of breeds known to be aggressive.

Story#1-A customer left his German Rott (generally known for being double the size of an American Rott, if I remember correclty, point being that he was a monster, likely north of 120 lbs _(O)_ ) in the back of his truck in the parking lot; the guy parked next to him tries to get back into his own car when the dog tries to attack him; restrained by a harness, which allows him to lean over the edge a ways, but not out of the bed. Of course, the near victim comes in yelling about which White Trash SOB left his dog in his truck and this loser gets pissy back. The loser owner comes back in talking about what a wuss the guy was and so on; had the dog attacked, the owner would have been sued and lost; leave the stupid dog home.

Story #2-I use to deliver, pick up parts form Truckland, first time ever for me, it was unclear where the parts dept door was so I entered the normal sales parking lot, ends up being the back of the building. I walk up to the door there and on my back I hear a chain sound (like of a chain stretching out and the high pitch tink tink tink) so I just haul out of there only to see a pit on my arse (I can confirm it as an American Pit Bull Terrier for statistical purposes). The idiot owner was a mechanic there and left it chained under his truck during his shift; can you believe what an idiot he was. Of course, I reported it to the parts guy, I should have reported it further, which likely would have gotten him fired; I did not. He called the store to make sure that I was not going to; his only concern being that he would get fired, he could not rats arse about me.

I lied, story 3-Price police dog, a German Shepard, attacked a 10-year old neighbor of the policeman housing the dog. The kid was playing with the policeman's son, the policeman had to beat it off of the kid with a 4x4 post nearly to death. Ripped the kid's face to shreds.

In short, it is story time, I would like to hear your story of you being threatened to death over owning your dog; and is yours neutered as you recommend it being done or is that just for others to do (what is good for the goose is good for the gander, right?)?

For me personally, I have a black lab female. She was once attacked by a sheltie (if you can call what a sheltie can do an "attack"). Out of self defense, she simply fought back and had the sheltie pinned in seconds and released as soon as I got to her in my front yard. That really shook her up, the next time a dog came by she went after it, same thing, released as soon as I got to her on command of "drop" as taught for ducks. I just have a hard time with these dogs seeing that pic above where the dang dog attacked the baby and also injured the dad as the owner. I kind of wonder of inbreeding does not have an effect also as the population is much less than the hunting breeds and they breed so much for color or size, which often results in aggression as a defect of inbreeding, you now have my $0.02 for free.

I don't mean this as a contentious debate; forgive me if it come across that way, just a friendly sharing of expereinces and thoughts with a little friendly harrassment along the way. Obviously, I do not know you from the man on the moon (unless you are that one pit owner who I threatened to kill that one time :mrgreen: ) so nothing personal is meant by any of my posts.

I think you are just jealous about me having the best quimp avatar, you should rename yourself to the "Quimp Pimp" and get him a little multi colered coat and gold chain.


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## Nibble Nuts

I may have misread Ironman's intentions. It just came across as supposed to be in your face. 

As far asthe threatened shooting, it came form one of my in-laws. We had just got her and he asked what breed she is. Being a coloful character, he then proceded to to explain how he is going to shoot me if the dog ever intimidates him. After getting ready to fight him for that remark, he realized I'm not going to let him push me around like others let him and he backed off. That is the only direct threat, but alot of people always say theywould shoot the owner too but I know that is just big talk, but the controversy is always around when the subject comes up.
My dog is a female and she is spayed. Her teeth are filed down also, but I suspect that is because she may have been used as a training dog for other pits. I have reason to suspect she was discarded from a fighting family. Makes me mad that people will watch a sport like that. It is supposedly still common in the Vernal/Jensen area where she is from.


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## jahan

Huge29 said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My insurance company simply will not insure a home with a *rott*, pit or doberman; I think that that covers all of the *worthless waste of space dogs *in the world. I see no point in having one of those dang dogs; I would not hesitate to kill one if it ever were in my yard or acting aggressive towards me or my family members.
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to have to disagree with you on the rott, sorry! I understand what everyone is saying about the Pitts, because they can turn on a dime. I don't know anything about Doberman's, but I can assure you rott's are good dogs. The family that watches my 9 month old boy has a 115 lb. rott. I was a little nervous at first, but by being around the dog for some time now, that is literally the best behaved dog I have ever been around. It goes and lays in front of the stairs if any of the children try to go up the stairs. It acts almost like another baby sitter. I know they are not all like this, but rott's don't have that switch that Pitt's do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My limited experience with the rotts is the white trash druggie neighbor's that barks at me everytime that I am outside; I reckon that she is more a victim of the surroundings more than instinct.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head here. It is 'usually' the owner more than the dog. I also have limited experience with rotts and they have all been good, I am sure that if my experiences would have been different I would have a different opinion, but I can't hate pitts, rotts, and dobermans from the experiences I have had. I also agree that in most cases these types of dogs might not be as good of a family dog as lets say a lab, but that does not mean they are worthless. I have had more issues with those **** ankle biting dogs that about any.

Along the lines of what Pro was saying earlier, my dad use to read meters for a while and he was attacked and chased more by labs than any other dog. Take it for what it is worth, they are good protectors of their yard. I have two labs and they have never bitten any one, but if someone was to try to get in our house, I know they would get mauled.

Peoples opinions are formed off of past experiences and I respect that. That is why I am of the opinion that these dogs are not near as bad as many make them to be, but I respect others if they don't feel these dogs belong in their home.


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## Ironman

:roll: 


Nibble Nuts said:


> So your information comes from a story of a guy your father in law works with. Yeah, you sound like a reputable source to me.


You insinuate the either I, or my Father-in-Law are not truthful...pretty judgmental for having never met either of us. So that you know, He and I do tell the truth. Because you hear something second-hand does not make it any less true.



Nibble Nuts said:


> His first mistake was to leave the two dogs alone together.


This is done every day across millions of homes in America, Labs, Dachshunds, Poodles, Sheppards, Collies, Pomeranians.....



Nibble Nuts said:


> You never do that with pits.


Hummm....I wonder why, there must be a reason for that.



Nibble Nuts said:


> As far as equating there natural inclination to fight other dogs with killing children, you show that you have no experience and know not what you speak of.


Again, you judge me without any basis. Perhaps I should clarify, I do not equate the natural inclination to fight other dogs with killing children. I do, by my comment, imply that a baby at times can act similar to a dog in that it does not think in a cognizant fashion regarding what the possible reactions might be to an action...such as pulling a tail. 
Here is a first-hand story for you. I witnessed my sister-in-law get attacked by a Jack Russell (yep, not a pit) with out provocation. She was about 12 (not a baby). She sat watching television with the little dog on her lap like she had done literally hundreds of time before. During a commercial break, she looks at the dog. The dog looks at her. Suddenly the dog goes nuts, lunges at her face, tearing a gash in it! All she did was look at it, something she had done hundreds of times before in that same situation. The dog was a spayed female, so no male dominance territorial locking eyes challenge here. Who's to say what went on in the dog's head. Maybe it thought her nose looked like rat and its instincts suddenly kicked in and took control over years of experience, excellent treatment and thorough training. We are all just glad it was not a large more deadly dog (pits not excluded).



Nibble Nuts said:


> You assume they have the lack of discretion found in many other species of dog.


I only assume they have instincts that are as hardwired as is the drive to reproduce...given the opportunity in the right circumstances they will act on instinct...just like all other breeds!



Nibble Nuts said:


> It is also tiring of hearing people try and shove it in your face like ironman did by saying things like this is the pit that was supposedly "kind" and "treated well" and "part of the family". So if you want a kind response, change your way of addressing the issue also.


I could say I'm "tired of hearing people try and shove it in your face" by always saying how "kind" and "treated well" and "part of the family" their Pits are. I have yet to hear anyone say their Pit is "vicious", and "abused", and "treated like a scum of the earth criminal". Many are. I would suggest (without data, but from personal experience) that proportionately, Pits are treated in this way more than other breeds are. Pits are unfortunately associated with, and now inseparable from that abusive/criminal/undereducated/whitetrash lifestyle, right or wrong it is a fact. Oh, and it was not written to elicit a response of any kind. They were just the words used by the Pit's owner to describe his own dog as told to me by my Father-in-Law...his words, not mine.



Nibble Nuts said:


> It has never been proven at any time that dog on dog aggression equals people aggression.


You might be right, I'd have to see a source to be sure though. I would suggest however, that "dog on dog aggression" increases the likelihood of "people aggression".



Nibble Nuts said:


> I guarantee that should the dog attack, it will not be pretty regardless of its breed.


Well said. Of course I would also "guarantee" that should a pit attack, there is higher probability of death than with other breeds.



Nibble Nuts said:


> Then they erroneously assume that the dog is a human killer as well.


 How many are wiling to take the chance?



Nibble Nuts said:


> Spaying or neutering makes a huge difference also.


 Depends on the age and history of aggression. Neutering a 4-year-old dog that has often fought will continue to fight (not just pits).



Nibble Nuts said:


> I've read accounts from police officers about breaking up dog fights and someone get bit by a non-pit, yet it hits the media as being a pit. I read one case where the alleged pit was actually a border collie. I talked to a guy who used to be a reporter. He told me the company he worked for would use pits as a default name to report any attack from an unidentified dog.


This is absolutely fascinating!! I would love to believe it, but it is second-hand you know. So, I guess I should say "_Yeah, you sound like a reputable source to me_".



Nibble Nuts said:


> The truth and the lies become too intertwined to be useful.


Indeed!



Nibble Nuts said:


> The hype gets old though.


Indeed again!



Nibble Nuts said:


> As far asthe threatened shooting, it came form one of my in-laws.


Now I understand why you would assume my Father-in-Law would not be a reputable source. Believe it or not, not all in-Laws are as "coloful" as yours.



Nibble Nuts said:


> I may have misread Ironman's intentions. It just came across as supposed to be in your face.


Indeed you did on the first post, but I hope the lucidity of my intentions cannot be missed on this one :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :evil:


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

I have one questions Nibblenuts; Did the person you bought your pit bull from throw in a wife beater shirt and an El Camino with your purchase?

Ok, one more question; Do you have any tattoos on your face? :mrgreen:


----------



## Loke

Nibble Nuts said:


> My dog is a female and she is spayed. Her teeth are filed down also, but I suspect that is because she may have been used as a training dog for other pits. I have reason to suspect she was discarded from a fighting family. Makes me mad that people will watch a sport like that. It is supposedly still common in the Vernal/Jensen area where she is from.


I don't know your dog, but this statement gives me concern. I am assuming that your dog was rescued from a bad situation. You don't say how old you dog was when you got her. You also don't say if you have children or if you live in a neighborhood with children. A dog that has been mistreated (and being used as a training dog for fighting certainly qualifies as mistreatment) is more likely to react in a bad way to stress than one that has been socialized in a positive way. I am afraid that you may be sitting on a time bomb. And I hope that someone doesn't get hurt when it explodes. Rescuing a mistreated dog is a noble act. But so is inviting a convicted rapist to live in your home after he is paroled. Just not smart when you've got a teen-aged daughter or two.


----------



## Nibble Nuts

Loke said:


> Nibble Nuts said:
> 
> 
> 
> My dog is a female and she is spayed. Her teeth are filed down also, but I suspect that is because she may have been used as a training dog for other pits. I have reason to suspect she was discarded from a fighting family. Makes me mad that people will watch a sport like that. It is supposedly still common in the Vernal/Jensen area where she is from.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know your dog, but this statement gives me concern. I am assuming that your dog was rescued from a bad situation. You don't say how old you dog was when you got her. You also don't say if you have children or if you live in a neighborhood with children. A dog that has been mistreated (and being used as a training dog for fighting certainly qualifies as mistreatment) is more likely to react in a bad way to stress than one that has been socialized in a positive way. I am afraid that you may be sitting on a time bomb. And I hope that someone doesn't get hurt when it explodes. Rescuing a mistreated dog is a noble act. But so is inviting a convicted rapist to live in your home after he is paroled. Just not smart when you've got a teen-aged daughter or two.
Click to expand...

I'm not worried. There used to be children in my neighborhood, but my dog already ate them. Fortunantely I finally finished stroking the 350 in my camino so that when my dog gets hungry I can access a neighborhood with children that much faster. Things will be even better once once my new tattoo heals up and I can remove the patch around my eye. Don't taze me bro!


----------



## girlsfishtoo

Something to chew on while I do some more research:

"Pit bulls don't make much noise, they just keep coming," Humane Society of the United States senior vice president Wayne Pacelle said. "They're 50 pounds of muscle and when they're trained, they won't quit. Sometimes both dogs will die from shock or loss of blood. They won't quit - some fights will last three or four hours." 

Pit bulls are legally classified as "vicious animals" by Ohio state law, a classification perhaps justified by the fact that, according to statistics kept by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, dogs identified as pit bulls accounted for 60 fatal attacks on humans - more than twice as many as any other breed - between 1979 and 1996, the most recent statistics available from the CDC.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Nibble Nuts said:


> I'm not worried. There used to be children in my neighborhood, but my dog already ate them. Fortunantely I finally finished stroking the 350 in my camino so that when my dog gets hungry I can access a neighborhood with children that much faster. Things will be even better once once my new tattoo heals up and I can remove the patch around my eye. Don't taze me bro!


.


----------



## threshershark

I've been watching this thread with interest mainly to see when Tree would chime in.

No offense here, I'm a dog fan, but the attitude I respect most from pit owners is along these lines: "I know I've got an attack dog, and that it is potentially unpredictable and dangerous to my family and others. Due to this awareness, I take all necessary precautions to ensure the safety of those around me."

Anyone who says "Yeah pits have a rep, but not MY pit..." is exactly like the guy who buys a motorcycle thinking they will never hit the pavement. The truth is that you need to be prepared for the eventuality (even if it never actually does happen).

Responsible owners of dangerous animals, whether they are pits, snakes, or lions recognize the risk and take steps to contain it. 

My friend's brother rescues big cats (lions, leopards, tigers, cougars). Usually these rescues happen when someone buys a cute cub as a pet and then it grows up into an animal that needs a deer-sized meal every week or so. I've been to his property in Colorado Springs and the 65 cats he cares for are well behaved and have been raised in captivity. Still, he knows they are powerful and potentially dangerous and respects that. In over 20 years, he has "only" been mauled once (which he assures me is more than sufficient). He almost lost his life when a tame and well-socialized lion decided to settle his hash. He still has the lion, which has never done anything similar before or since.

If you own an attack dog, it's simply not realisitic to say yours is not potentially dangerous to others. Pits can be great dogs, and many own them without incident over a lifetime (just like Siegfried & Roy owned/raised many lions and tigers over an extended period until a tame animal decided Roy's head would be more fun seperated from his neck). Attack dogs need to have this same potential recognized by their owners, and responsible measures should be taken with all of them to prevent an accident.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Maybe he just wanted an El Camino and the WB shirt? The dog could have just been a bonus. I personally would have had the sellers throw in a carton of Lucky Strikes, but that's just me.


----------



## Nibble Nuts

threshershark said:


> I've been watching this thread with interest mainly to see when Tree would chime in.
> 
> No offense here, I'm a dog fan, but the attitude I respect most from pit owners is along these lines: "I know I've got an attack dog, and that it is potentially unpredictable and dangerous to my family and others. Due to this awareness, I take all necessary precautions to ensure the safety of those around me."
> 
> Anyone who says "Yeah pits have a rep, but not MY pit..." is exactly like the guy who buys a motorcycle thinking they will never hit the pavement. The truth is that you need to be prepared for the eventuality (even if it never actually does happen).
> 
> Responsible owners of dangerous animals, whether they are pits, snakes, or lions recognize the risk and take steps to contain it.
> 
> If you own an attack dog, it's simply not realisitic to say yours is not potentially dangerous to others. Pits can be great dogs, and many own them without incident over a lifetime (just like Siegfried & Roy owned/raised many lions and tigers over an extended period until a tame animal decided Roy's head would be more fun seperated from his neck). Attack dogs need to have this same potential recognized by their owners, and responsible measures should be taken with all of them to prevent an accident.


Who are you talking to exactly? When in the helll did I ever say that I don't think my dog is capable of inflicting harm. I know I never said that. I thought i had illustrated that I take measures to make sure the opportunity never arises. I guess some just look for any excuse to chime in with their two cents whether or not it equates to rehashing already presented ideas or assuming someone is making claims they are not. Also, if you own any dog it is simply unrealistic to assume it will never attack anything. At no time can you assume a dog will be anything but an animal.

Fatbass, your comment was beside the point. I never said there is not a greater potential for harm from this breed. No shiz, you think when you have a stronger more determined dog, that greater potential exists. So can you show me where I ever tried to argue the point that you asked me to give up? No. I find your remark kind of ironic considering you have confessed that your dog has shown it has potential to be dangerous. Reminds me of my inlaws with their preaching, yet my dog has never attacked, nor even come close to attacking anyone, and I can recall two attacks on people from there dogs in the past year. One of the dogs attacked the little neighbor boy for no reason and sent him to the hospital. They still have their dog, I would have put it down though. I guess their dog is safe because it is not a pit.


----------



## Nibble Nuts

girlsfishtoo said:


> Something to chew on while I do some more research:
> 
> "Pit bulls don't make much noise, they just keep coming," Humane Society of the United States senior vice president Wayne Pacelle said. "They're 50 pounds of muscle and when they're trained, they won't quit. Sometimes both dogs will die from shock or loss of blood. They won't quit - some fights will last three or four hours."
> 
> Pit bulls are legally classified as "vicious animals" by Ohio state law, a classification perhaps justified by the fact that, according to statistics kept by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, dogs identified as pit bulls accounted for 60 fatal attacks on humans - more than twice as many as any other breed - between 1979 and 1996, the most recent statistics available from the CDC.


No that is nothing to chew on. You present this as if it is an eye opener. :roll: Once again, you are equating dog fighting into human attacks by using Waynes Parcells words. Second, if the death total is only 60 in a span 17 years, I think there are more things to worry about than trying to get big government in on something that is overhyped. I cannot say it enough, but if you think a dog is safe because it is not a pit, you are setting yourself for a surprise. Plus, I don't give a crap what the state of ohio says. Please tell me why I should care.

Loke, you are assuming things once again. I've never seen my dog shy away or act afraid like many abused and likely to attack dogs do. I'm not saying I don't keep an eye on her, but you are assuming certain things you know not. Did you ever drop your kids off at daycare or leave them with a babysitter you don't know all that well. If so, statistically speaking you've already opened them up to more danger than being around a pit. But if I were to accuse this scenario on you, would I not be speculating a bit beyond my knowledge of your situation?


----------



## jahan

Nibble Nuts said:


> Who are you talking to exactly? When in the helll did I ever say that I don't think my dog is capable of inflicting harm. I know I never said that. I thought i had illustrated that I take measures to make sure the opportunity never arises. I guess some just look for any excuse to chime in with their two cents whether or not it equates to rehashing already presented ideas or assuming someone is making claims they are not.* Also, if you own any dog it is simply unrealistic to assume it will never attack anything. At no time can you assume a dog will be anything but an animal.*
> 
> Fatbass, your comment was beside the point. I never said there is not a greater potential for harm from this breed. No shiz, you think when you have a stronger more determined dog, that greater potential exists. So can you show me where I ever tried to argue the point that you asked me to give up? No.


I think the bolded statement is dead on. My dogs have never attacked or bitten anyone, but I still won't leave them alone with my little boy for very long, just in case. They are still animals, but I think even Nibble Nuts agrees that some animals are more susceptible to turning on their owners, which means you just have to take extra precautions like he said he does.

Fatbass wrote:


> That's great if your dog is one in a thousand


Do you really believe that? Do you really think that only one out of a thousand are decent? You seem like a very intelligent person and maybe you were just exaggerating to make a point.
I have been around 5 different Pitt's and only one was aggressive towards humans. 3 of the 5 were aggressive towards other animals and the other two were just nice as could be to everyone and everything. I am not saying that one day they won't snap, I am just making a point that not all of these dogs are the devil like many think.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Keep digging, nuts.


----------



## threshershark

Nibbler-O-Nuts said:


> Who are you talking to exactly?


As the context implies it was a general comment about the ownership of attack dogs. I wasn't directing my opinion towards or responding to you. If you felt left out:



Nibbler-O-Nuts said:


> When in the helll did I ever say that I don't think my dog is capable of inflicting harm.


Hell only has a pair of hockey sticks and the sentence is interrogatory and hence should end with a question mark.


----------



## Ironman

Nibble Nuts said:


> Second, if the death total is only 60 in a span 17 years, I think there are more things to worry about than trying to get big government in on something that is overhyped.


 :shock: :shock: :shock: Tell that to the 60 and their loved ones. These are avoidable deaths, not accidents. Utterly inconsiderate on your part.....dare I say stereotypically typical of a pit owner?



jahan said:


> I have been around 5 different Pitt's and only one was aggressive towards humans. 3 of the 5 were aggressive towards other animals and the other two were just nice as could be to everyone and everything. I am not saying that one day they won't snap, I am just making a point that not all of these dogs are the devil like many think.


This is either laughable or frightening...not sure which. 3 in 5 pits demonstrated aggressive behavior!!! I've been around hundreds of retrievers, even hundreds in a single day. Never any aggressive behavior towards humans or other dogs. Not that it can't happen, I know it does on occasion. But 3 in 5, holy pit!


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Are there any cities/states where it is illegal to own these vicious labs that have been spoken of?


----------



## proutdoors

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Are there any cities/states where it is illegal to own these vicious labs that have been spoken of?


Just trailer parks, where owning a pit is mandatory. :shock: :wink:


----------



## Nibble Nuts

Ironman said:


> Nibble Nuts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Second, if the death total is only 60 in a span 17 years, I think there are more things to worry about than trying to get big government in on something that is overhyped.
Click to expand...

 :shock: :shock: :shock: Tell that to the 60 and their loved ones. These are avoidable deaths, not accidents. Utterly inconsiderate on your part.....dare I say stereotypically typical of a pit owner?

Not a single death is tolerable, but if you check into it further, you will see that almost every breed has a death of a human attached to its legacy. Everyone of those deaths were avoidable, and they were attacks not accidents. Utterly inconsiderate to ignore those who have been killed by non-pit dogs... dare I say steroetypically typical of a dog owner. My point is that tragedies do happen, but some of these things get overhyped to the point that you would think it is the norm, and the only things these dogs do.Does it justify trying to get more laws enacted that will only create more and more government? You do realize that places that have tried to ban pits, like Denver, now have more pits than they did before the ban.

Now you attack Jahan for acknowledging that pits don't tolerate other dogs very well, but you seem mad that he wasn't calling them the devil for it. Since when do dogs deserve the same treatment as humans? Here is your logic applied to other breeds: I am worried about the hunting dogs that I see have a propensity to hunt other animals. I can only assume that it means they will hunt everything that breaths. When I see a bird dog go after a bird, I wonder when is it going to go after a child in the same manner.


----------



## Nibble Nuts

proutdoors said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any cities/states where it is illegal to own these vicious labs that have been spoken of?
> 
> 
> 
> Just trailer parks, where owning a pit is mandatory. :shock: :wink:
Click to expand...

 Isn't Stansbury a glorified trailor park?


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Just the parts where pit bulls reside.


----------



## Nibble Nuts

I guess I should move in then.


----------



## proutdoors

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Just the parts where pit bulls reside.


That would be fixedblade's neighborhood. :mrgreen:

I also don't believe a miniature rat terrier has been linked to any human deaths due to mauling. I could be wrong though. I'll still take a bite from a non-pit over one from a pit every day of the week. My job had me encounter dogs on a daily basis for 7+ years, the aggressiveness of the different breeds in measurable, and the pits/rots were as a rule more aggressive than labs/goldens.

I missed the over/under on how long nibbles would respond to the trailer park comment. I also was way off on how he would respond. So, since he was nice to me, I'll not comment on the pit 'issue' anymore. I may respond to 'attacks' on my neck of the woods however. 8)


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

proutdoors said:


> I may respond to 'attacks' on my neck of the woods however. 8)


You mean "*******" part of the woods, I'm sure.

How many people named Cletus or Jethro in Stan's Berryland? I once saw a guy with 9 fingers on one hand passing through Berryland years ago, I wonder what caused that? Good thing I had locked my doors when I got to Lakeside, Like I always do.


----------



## proutdoors

Treehugnhuntr said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> I may respond to 'attacks' on my neck of the woods however. 8)
> 
> 
> 
> You mean "*******" part of the woods, I'm sure.
> 
> How many people named Cletus or Jethro in Stan's Berryland? I once saw a guy with 9 fingers on one hand passing through Berryland years ago, I wonder what caused that? Good thing I had locked my doors when I got to Lakeside, Like I always do.
Click to expand...

Hillbillys have pits, ******** have hounds. How did you "pass through" 'Berryland'? There is a toll both manned by trolls keeping rich bi#$%s OUT! You are thinking of Grantsville, AKA Clinker town.

It's Lake Point, not Lakeside. :roll:


----------



## Nibble Nuts

proutdoors said:


> I also don't believe a miniature rat terrier has been linked to any human deaths due to mauling. I could be wrong though. I'll still take a bite from a non-pit over one from a pit every day of the week. My job had me encounter dogs on a daily basis for 7+ years, the aggressiveness of the different breeds in measurable, and the pits/rots were as a rule more aggressive than labs/goldens.


 There are stats that show which dogs have killed people. You'd be surprised at which ones actually have. I doesn't take a big dog to kill a baby. Even house cats have killed. THere are studies also published that show the propensity each breed has to bite. Pits fared very well in that test, which is an extensive test btw.
I too would rather be bit by a retriever than a pit/rot, but I would prefer not to get bit at all. The aftermath of some of the attacks attributed to labs/retrievers is also ugly though. Alot of the results look just like the photos Hue posted. I myself prefer dogs like pits and rotts though because I like knowing they are guarding my home, which to me is the #1 attribute I look for in a dog. Responsibilty can never be ignored with any dog though, and certain require more precautions due to their abilities. I would not recommend pits to most people, but I don't think any dog is a devil dog.
Why would I care about Tree's comments? You could say my mother is fat too, but that doesn't make it true.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Don't be so sure. Last time a slept over at her house she was downing cup cakes like they were pain pills. :wink: :mrgreen:


----------



## proutdoors

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Don't be so sure. Last time a slept over at her house she was downing cup cakes like they were pain pills. :wink: :mrgreen:


Hillbilly's sister is going to be ticked now. 

Anyone who thinks a pit will 'protect' a home hasn't looked at the statistics. While I in no way advocate 'banning' the aggressive breeds, I do NOT see the use of them. I also do not see the benefits of owning one outweighing the liabilities. Insurance companies base rates on stats, not emotions. The cost of homeowners insurance is higher with most insurance companies than those with labs. Same as having a swimming pool in the backyard, or a trampoline. You are at a higher risk of lawsuits with these high risk items. I don't wear a helmet when riding an ATV, even after getting life-flighted off the mountain because I didn't have one on when I rolled one. Yet, I would NEVER say helmets are not needed. I just chose to ignore the stats and live on the 'edge'. A person using logic would ALWAYS wear a helmet when in the back country on an ATV. If you were to admit you like living on the 'edge' and have a pit regardless of what the stats show, I'll but it.


----------



## Nibble Nuts

proutdoors said:


> Anyone who thinks a pit will 'protect' a home hasn't looked at the statistics. If you were to admit you like living on the 'edge' and have a pit regardless of what the stats show, I'll but it.


If you think pits are not great gaurds of persons, than you need to look into it. Property gaurds they are not. They often don't care about property, but if you think they are not gaurds of their owners you're mistaken. 
Call it living on the edge or whatever, I don't care. I don't need stats or any reason to justify why I like pits. If you haven't already figured it out, they are my favorite breed and that is all the motive I need. Now my reasoning doesn't change the stats and I really am not concerned if you like them or not, nor if you see any reason to owning one of these dogs, I really don't need you "buy" into any of it. You are right though, I like pits regardless of what any stats may report.


----------



## girlsfishtoo

Nibble Nuts said:


> Nibble Nuts wrote:
> Second, if the death total is only 60 in a span 17 years, I think there are more things to worry about than trying to get big government in on something that is overhyped.


First of all who ever said anything about trying to get government in anything? Everybody has their favorites in life, expecially dogs. Each breed has their advantages and disadvantages, its a fact of life, if this wasn't true there would be only one breed of dog. Pits have aquired a bad rep because of the majority of people who take one home to raise. I worked with a girl who was so excited she was getting a female pit puppy. Once that poor dog got bigger, her owner started making her wear a huge heavy chain around her neck "so she would get big muscles, like a Pit is supposed to have," but yet it was supposed to be a inside dog that was not going to fight. Why would someone do that to their animal in the first place? As it has been said on here before all breeds have their advantages and disadvantages, pits have 1 major disadvantage; lock jaw. The thought of having a dog bite me (and yes I have been bit by a dog before) and not releasing, scares the crap out of me. I have been around dogs all of my life and only one time with one dog that we owned have I ever been in fear of getting bit. Let me tell you I would NEVER, EVER, ever, ever, ever own a Mastiff again EVER!!!!! Pits in my eyes (now this is MY OPNION) are not a good family dog. I don't see how having to take the precautions everyday (that was previoually mentioned) of making sure my dog was locked up in its own room before I left the house or to constanlty follow my dog around to make sure it is not biting someone. We at one time had 8 Labs and 1 Blue Heeler that were all together in the same house, never once did we worry about if we were going to come home to a bloody mess of a half alive-half dead dog NEVER, we also never had to worry about locking the doors to the house.

Everybody has their rights to their own opnions and beliefs, if you don't like the facts, oh well such is life, get over it. This is a forum for people to express their feelings, not to be attacked because of them. You have yours and I have mine, on this subject they will never be the same.


----------



## Nibble Nuts

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Don't be so sure. Last time a slept over at her house she was downing cup cakes like they were pain pills. :wink: :mrgreen:


Son, I don't want to hear you speak of your grandmother that way any more.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Pit bulls make for an easy way to justify carrying a gun.


----------



## Nibble Nuts

girlsfishtoo said:


> As it has been said on here before all breeds have their advantages and disadvantages, pits have 1 major disadvantage; lock jaw.


Lock jaw is an absolute myth. There is no mechanism that locks their jaw. 
I am sorry your friend felt that her pit was supposed to have huge muscles. That is not part of how they are supposed to be built. In fact, when it comes to actual game bred pits, huge muscles are frowned on because they decrease the dogs speed and endurance. Todays show bred pits are the ones that have huge muscules. A properly built pit should be lean and between 35-55 pounds. The concept of big muscles being necessary is a misguided modern belief.


----------



## Nibble Nuts

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Pit bulls make for an easy way to justify carrying a gun.


You needed justification for your God-given right as an American?


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

God-given. :roll: I'm sure Jesus would be packing heat in today's society. I'm sure the wicked witch of the west, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy would too.

Not to mention, I'm sure he is the type of mythological figure that would own a pit bull as well.


----------



## proutdoors

Treehugnhuntr said:


> God-given. :roll: I'm sure Jesus would be packing heat in today's society. I'm sure the wicked witch of the west, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy would too.
> 
> Not to mention, I'm sure he is the type of mythological figure that would own a pit bull as well.


The Founding fathers believed EVERY 'right' we have is God-given, so I believe nibbles is 100% accurate on that subject.

FYI, I NEVER said pits won't 'attempt' to protect their owners, I am saying there are BETTER ways to protect your family that have less 'risks' involved. My lab would put his life on the line attempting to protect my wife and kids, but I like the alarm system and hand gun much better to keep my family safe. A 'trained' criminal can down a pit easily and quickly. I can/have done it with pepper spray, it would have then been EASY to snuff the dog if desired.


----------



## .45

proutdoors said:


> FYI, I NEVER said pits won't 'attempt' to protect their owners, I am saying there are BETTER ways to protect your family that have less 'risks' involved. My lab would put his life on the line attempting to protect my wife and kids, but I like the alarm system and hand gun much better to keep my family safe.* A 'trained' criminal can down a pit easily and quickly. I can/have done it with pepper spray, it would have then been EASY to snuff the dog if desired*.


Yeah RIGHT !!! _(O)_ .........That _dog_ of yours is probably immune to pepper spray, shotguns, electrocution and bribery !! As stated before !! 'DO NOT GO IN PRO'S YARD UNANNOUNCED !! Thiefs, burglars, arsonist, pit bulls, dobey's and wolves could not even stand a chance against that dog of yours......Don't you need some kind of permit to own an animal like that ??? :evil:


----------



## Ironman

Nibble Nuts said:


> Utterly inconsiderate to ignore those who have been killed by non-pit dogs...


We were discussing Pit related deaths...if you want to talk about non-pit related deaths, please provide those "stats" you keep talking about and upon which you are basing your tantrum. 


Nibble Nuts said:


> Now you attack Jahan for acknowledging that pits don't tolerate other dogs very well, but you seem mad that he wasn't calling them the devil for it.


Never said that (though I do below). I just thought it interesting that in someone's experience 3 in 5 pits were aggressive, something rarely seen in other breeds, like retrievers. 


Nibble Nuts said:


> Since when do dogs deserve the same treatment as humans?


What are you talking about, I never said that, I do not believe they should be...only Humans should be treated as humans. 
Your Bird dog analogy is laughable! Here's a big difference in these breeds. If a Bird dog is unlucky enough to be owned by an owner that doesn't bird hunt, it doesn't have the propensity to turn its attention to other life forms. A pit on the other hand is rarely used for its intended purposes (Bull baiting and dog fighting) but does have a tendency to turn it attention to other life forms...Goats, Cats, Horses, Humans (There is likely more, but those are the only ones I remember in the last few months here in little old Utah).


Nibble Nuts said:


> There are stats that show which dogs have killed people. You'd be surprised at which ones actually have. &#8230;.There are studies also published that show the propensity each breed has to bite. Pits fared very well in that test, which is an extensive test btw.


Please, show the stats. This thread is going nowhere because it has just turned into "he said" "she said". Actual numbers would help the discussion at this point.


Nibble Nuts said:


> but I don't think any dog is a devil dog


 I do! The APBT was bred for the purpose of brutality in the "sport" of killing other dogs. Since that sport is no longer acceptable to society these dogs have proven to be aggressive to the point of killing other life forms including humans, of which small children are most susceptible. The dog was bred and developed to Kill its own kind. I think Devil dog is fitting.


Nibble Nuts said:


> There is no mechanism that locks their jaw.


 Yes there is, it is called instinct.
As for protective behavior. Most dogs, if not all, will protect their territory and family, it is a pack instinct that reaches to their wolf ancestors. Many protect by just barking at the sign of strangers but run if confronted (you know bark is bigger than bit), while a few attack if confronted..often times without a warning bark. Here's an unsubstantiated stat for you, it has been shown that a barking dog will turn away intruders, regardless of the breed/size of the dog, that means that a mini rat terrier is just as successful in protecting its territory (your home) as is a pit bull terrier! How many mini rats have turned to killing humans?


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## proutdoors

.45 said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, I NEVER said pits won't 'attempt' to protect their owners, I am saying there are BETTER ways to protect your family that have less 'risks' involved. My lab would put his life on the line attempting to protect my wife and kids, but I like the alarm system and hand gun much better to keep my family safe.* A 'trained' criminal can down a pit easily and quickly. I can/have done it with pepper spray, it would have then been EASY to snuff the dog if desired*.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah RIGHT !!! _(O)_ .........That _dog_ of yours is probably immune to pepper spray, shotguns, electrocution and bribery !! As stated before !! 'DO NOT GO IN PRO'S YARD UNANNOUNCED !! Thiefs, burglars, arsonist, pit bulls, dobey's and wolves could not even stand a chance against that dog of yours......Don't you need some kind of permit to own an animal like that ??? :evil:
Click to expand...

Not in "Berryland". :mrgreen:


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## Nibble Nuts

fatbass said:


> Nibble Nuts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> threshershark said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been watching this thread with interest mainly to see when Tree would chime in.
> 
> *Fatbass, your comment was beside the point. I never said there is not a greater potential for harm from this breed. No shiz, you think when you have a stronger more determined dog, that greater potential exists. So can you show me where I ever tried to argue the point that you asked me to give up? No. I find your remark kind of ironic considering you have confessed that your dog has shown it has potential to be dangerous...*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was kind of beside the point&#8230;we have discussed this before while fishing. You know that there is no sense in arguing that a pit is no more dangerous than other breeds. ALL scientific data shows that pits are best at what they are bred for- latching onto an adversary until there is no movement any more.
> 
> Your argument is like saying a .458 Win Mag is no more lethal than a .22 LR. Both can kill but the chances of recovering from a .458 gunshot are much lower than the chances of recovering from a .22 gunshot. I'd rather have an accidental discharge of a .22 than a .458!
> 
> And yes, my heeler has killed cats, mice, rats, blue jays, robins and magpies and is capable of violence towards strangers- I would hope he would bite an uninvited prowler- but he won't lock his jaws in a death grip like a pit and I don't fear for the lives of my grandkids when they are around him.
> 
> I just don't see why you are wasting your time trying to convince *anyone* that a pit isn't a ticking bomb.
Click to expand...

Once again, show me where I have said they do less damage. If you can't show it, I obviously never said that and your claiming I did is beside the point. The two dogs of my inlaws that have attacked recently were also heelers. Yet you don't worry about your dog, because to you it has shown itself, same for me.


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## Nibble Nuts

Gotta go for now. I will check in later to see if the hen house still has its feathers ruffled.


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## coyoteslayer

I remember watching on TV where two pit bulls attacked their owner (an old lady) and the pits were riping her to pieces before police officers arrived.


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## Treehugnhuntr

proutdoors said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> God-given. :roll: I'm sure Jesus would be packing heat in today's society. I'm sure the wicked witch of the west, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy would too.
> 
> Not to mention, I'm sure he is the type of mythological figure that would own a pit bull as well.
> 
> 
> 
> The Founding fathers *believed* EVERY 'right' we have is God-given, so I believe nibbles is 100% accurate on that subject.
> 
> FYI, I NEVER said pits won't 'attempt' to protect their owners, I am saying there are BETTER ways to protect your family that have less 'risks' involved. My lab would put his life on the line attempting to protect my wife and kids, but I like the alarm system and hand gun much better to keep my family safe. A 'trained' criminal can down a pit easily and quickly. I can/have done it with pepper spray, it would have then been EASY to snuff the dog if desired.
Click to expand...

Ok, so NN *believes* that pit bulls are just as harmless as other dogs. Does that make it true? Of course not, it is just a belief that indigenous to people who have similar *beliefs*.

Mainstream psychology and related disciplines have traditionally treated belief as if it were the simplest form of mental representation and therefore one of the building blocks of conscious thought. Philosophers have tended to be more rigorous in their analysis and much of the work examining the viability of the belief concept stems from *philosophical * analysis.

be·lief 
-noun
1.	something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.	confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.	confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.

And I'd still beat you to the top. :wink:

That brings me to my next question. If Jesus were attacked by a pit bull, would he forgive him? Would he heal him into a labrador, so he could live the rest of his life feeling worthy of something other than an incinerator? Would he fashion him a dog house, as would any other skilled carpenter? Do they have pit bulls in North west Africa?.....Is this thing on???


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## proutdoors

tree, back away from the keyboard and get some fresh air. You are talking more nonsense than normal. And no way in H E double hockey sticks would your treehugging butt get to the top of the ridge before me. Not even on your best day and my worst day! Bring it!


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## Nibble Nuts

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Ok, so NN *believes* that pit bulls are just as harmless as other dogs. Does that make it true? Of course not, it is just a belief that indigenous to people who have similar *beliefs*.
> 
> Mainstream psychology and related disciplines have traditionally treated belief as if it were the simplest form of mental representation and therefore one of the building blocks of conscious thought. Philosophers have tended to be more rigorous in their analysis and much of the work examining the viability of the belief concept stems from *philosophical * analysis.
> 
> be·lief
> -noun
> 1.	something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
> 2.	confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
> 3.	confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
> 
> And I'd still beat you to the top. :wink:
> 
> That brings me to my next question. If Jesus were attacked by a pit bull, would he forgive him? Would he heal him into a labrador, so he could live the rest of his life feeling worthy of something other than an incinerator? Would he fashion him a dog house, as would any other skilled carpenter? Do they have pit bulls in North west Africa?.....Is this thing on???


 I see the athiest is sincerely hoping there is not a God. That's okay, you keep turning to mainstream psychology to fill that void in your life. Maybe the APA can clear your conscience of that God bestowed sense of right and wrong. Just keep telling yourself you are an independent thinker.


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## Ironman

Treehugnhuntr said:


> That brings me to my next question. If Jesus were attacked by a pit bull, would he forgive him? Would he heal him into a labrador, so he could live the rest of his life feeling worthy of something other than an incinerator? Would he fashion him a dog house, as would any other skilled carpenter? Do they have pit bulls in North west Africa?.....Is this thing on???


 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: 
That made this thread all worth it right there!


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## threshershark

Interesting facts on canine homicides from the last 2 years (http://www.dogbitelaw.com):

*2006*
Pit Bull: 10
Rot: 4
Presa Canario: 2
Boxer: 2
All other breeds: 1

*2007*
Pit Bull: 16
Rot: 4
German Shepherd: 1
Doberman: 1
Chow: 2
All other breeds: 8

The "all other breeds" is used whenever the breed of dog responsible for the human fatality was not known, but the death was clearly from dog attack.

So despite ranking 58th in total number of dogs (Labradors greatly outnumber all breeds named here) the Pit kills more people than all other breeds and mixed breeds combined each year despite being a tiny minority. No labs or sporting breeds were listed as involved in canine homicides, but again there were a total of 9 unknown culprits in the data.


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## proutdoors

Those stats mean NOTHING. They are propagated by emotions and hearsay. :wink:


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## threshershark

He's a big sweetie....yeeees he is.


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## scott_rn

proutdoors said:


> I don't wear a helmet when riding an ATV, even after getting life-flighted off the mountain because I didn't have one on when I rolled one.


A closed head injury? That explains a lot! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


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## proutdoors

scott_rn said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't wear a helmet when riding an ATV, even after getting life-flighted off the mountain because I didn't have one on when I rolled one.
> 
> 
> 
> A closed head injury? That explains a lot! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:
Click to expand...

Skull fracture, skinned my scalp, when wapiti67 found me my skin was hanging over both ears. I also crushed 3 verts, broke 4 others, tore my right shoulder off, broke 8 ribs on the backside, punctured the right lung, crushed my left hand. Bad thing is, this wasn't even my worst head injury in my colorful life. :? Explains a lot indeed, I have to put a protective cover over the keyboard so the drool doesn't ruin it. *\-\*


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## Treehugnhuntr

Nibble Nuts said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so NN *believes* that pit bulls are just as harmless as other dogs. Does that make it true? Of course not, it is just a belief that indigenous to people who have similar *beliefs*.
> 
> Mainstream psychology and related disciplines have traditionally treated belief as if it were the simplest form of mental representation and therefore one of the building blocks of conscious thought. Philosophers have tended to be more rigorous in their analysis and much of the work examining the viability of the belief concept stems from *philosophical * analysis.
> 
> be·lief
> -noun
> 1.	something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
> 2.	confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
> 3.	confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
> 
> And I'd still beat you to the top. :wink:
> 
> That brings me to my next question. If Jesus were attacked by a pit bull, would he forgive him? Would he heal him into a labrador, so he could live the rest of his life feeling worthy of something other than an incinerator? Would he fashion him a dog house, as would any other skilled carpenter? Do they have pit bulls in North west Africa?.....Is this thing on???
> 
> 
> 
> I see the athiest is sincerely hoping there is not a God. That's okay, you keep turning to mainstream psychology to fill that void in your life. Maybe the APA can clear your conscience of that God bestowed sense of right and wrong. Just keep telling yourself you are an independent thinker.
Click to expand...

I like how you ASSume that I'm an atheist and that there is some kind of "void" that I am filling. I do not hope there is not a god, I have no belief either way and would be foolish to tell you I knew otherwise. They're just possibilities with a dash of satire and sarcasm, something your black and white world knows nothing of.

Lethargic agnostic would be close.  :wink:


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## Huge29

These dogs just breed crime and injury everywhere they go http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3046106


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## Huge29

APBT in the news again, and not in a good way; hard to tell exactly the breed, but sure has the general look of one from the short view of the dog: http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3218348#


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