# Novice Ice Fishing: Southern Region



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Anybody have advice for the region? 

I inherited a fair amount of equipment from my father after they retired and moved to warmer environs. Complete novice. I have all of the basics though no shelter yet. 

Heading out for Panguitch tomorrow and then have another two days to tool around. Bummed its so cold but I've got the gear and skills, even if both are a little dusty.

Anybody hit up Enterprise in last few days after rain storms on Friday? Hesitant to head out there without a recent report. 

Thinking I'll try Otter Creek Reservoir Monday or Tuesday though it'll be tempting to get to know one lake first.

Anybody have info on Navajo? Hoping to wait until I'm hooked on sport before venturing into a 1+ mile walk in but generally curious on experience there.

Thanks again for sharing. Will be psyched if I can fill in another few months of activity during winters to avoid cabin fever. That is, when we have winters down here


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I guess I'm doing something right:

3 Rainbows 13.5-15.5"
1 Cutthroat 14"

Many a cold and windy moment (45+ minutes) but I could see a new seasonal hobby forming with some learning and changes.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Looks like you got the touch. Keep after it, and you'll be the one hooked.8)


----------



## neverdrawn (Jan 3, 2009)

Nice job! Panguitch gets hard to fish this time of year. You were definitely doing something right.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Good job. Looks like you are having some success. Back in the day when I was a D*&% Nevadan , Panguitch could be epic on the hard deck clear into March. 

On your original question, if you are an ice novice, I would recommend Fish lake. The perch are beyond easy if you are just off the weedbeds and the various salmonids are usually cooperative, even in the perch areas. My 1 trip there this year was a 5 species day, so lots of variety as well.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Catherder said:


> Good job. Looks like you are having some success. Back in the day when I was a D*&% Nevadan , Panguitch could be epic on the hard deck clear into March.
> 
> On your original question, if you are an ice novice, I would recommend Fish lake. The perch are beyond easy if you are just off the weedbeds and the various salmonids are usually cooperative, even in the perch areas. My 1 trip there this year was a 5 species day, so lots of variety as well.


Fish Lake is definitely on my radar. Wanted to try some closer stuff before committing to a longer drive. Getting into a multiple species fishing trip would be tons of fun and I wouldn't complain about a freezer full of perch after a weekend of fishing.

Having a winter hobby to keep my mind and body busy would be great. I simply can't afford skiing anymore, season passes are just too expensive for our finances. But I could definitely see getting out 1-2 weekends a month for ice fishing.

Year is starting to round out nicely with new endeavors: ice fishing » turkey hunting season » fly fishing season » quick big game season » upland game season until end of year &#128513;


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

back country, don't forget about predator hunting. That's a hoot!


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

2nd venture today was tougher. First, 18F and 10-15 mph wind gets brutal. 

But mostly had tougher time setting the hook with what was pretty regular bites. Landed three: 1 small rainbow, a 16-17" rainbow (dinner) and a gorgeous 17" Cutbow that had to be released by regulation. Lost 2 from breaking off at knot: one all my fault but the 2nd one ran right at bottom of hole in way that immediately cut the line. Tough losses but all good fun and learning.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> ... and a gorgeous 17" Cutbow that had to be released by regulation.


Got a picture of it? I love to see pictures of those magical fish!


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

PBH said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> > ... and a gorgeous 17" Cutbow that had to be released by regulation.
> ...


The attached photo was it.

Cutthroat markings: red/orange slash, pelvic and anal fin coloration, spot shape

Rainbow markings: pronounced pink hues (not as classic a mark though) laterally and on gill plate, distribution of spots, blunter nose (less certain).

Released solely because of slash (15-22" slot). If I was less certain I would have ID'd next with anal and pelvic fin. When in doubt I lean towards cutthroat (not always this obvious).

There is a good chance that many Rainbows and Cutthroats we catch are cutbows after years of coexistence. They hybridize readily. Even my fisheries biologist friends have a hard time saying with certainty which is which (when coexisting) just from visuals (at least those who have spent time doing genetics work and have seen the DNA pollution in samples that look clearly like one or the other). Many states are trying to eliminate non-native rainbow populations for that reason as they are drastically affecting the purity of cutthroat stocks (above my education level but there are fair arguments that cutthroat strains we know now are already hybridized).

Sorry for long post, I just find all of it fascinating.(I should respond when I'm not on a coffee high).


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

In general, I finding the Bear River/Lake cutthroat the toughest to identify with confidence.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> The attached photo was it.


The photo you posted was a cutthroat.



backcountry said:


> I just find all of it fascinating.(I should respond when I'm not on a coffee high).


It is all very fascinating, and I admire your passion for it.

You did the right thing by releasing that fish. But it was not a hybrid. It was beautiful cutthroat. Nice fish. Keep posting more pics.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

PBH said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> > The attached photo was it.
> ...


 If you are a local fisheries biologist I would love to know how you are certain. Would love to learn more.

If not, I ran photo by a fisheries biologist in a different region with extensive experience with cutthroat genetics and he couldn't identify it as definitively/solely cutthroat. He stated similar stuff to me about the various multiple species markings. In all fairness though, he doesn't work directly with this subspecies so I would totally lean on a local professional with expert knowledge with the Bear River/Lake Cutthroat.

Would release it without hesitation again since by regulation any fish with cutthroat markings (pure or hybrid) is a cutthroat at Panguitch. For comparison, it looked more like the attached photo of a hybrid taken by the NPS in person (gill plate color not as bright, anal and pelvic fins cutthroat on mine) than the illustrations and photos of pure Bear River/Lake cutthroats I've found. Really wish I had gotten a better shot as the angle doesn't expose markings I a saw well at all.

https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/rainbow-trout.htm


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> If you are a local fisheries biologist I would love to know how you are certain. Would love to learn more.


I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night. That's as close as I will ever come to being a fisheries biologist. Sorry.



backcountry said:


> I ran photo by a fisheries biologist in a different region with extensive experience ...


Central region? Be wary of those guys. They can't tell the difference between a splake and a brook trout -- and anglers like to take advantage of that!



backcountry said:


> For comparison, it looked more like the attached photo of a hybrid taken by the NPS in person (gill plate color not as bright, anal and pelvic fins cutthroat on mine) than the illustrations and photos of pure Bear River/Lake cutthroats I've found. ...
> 
> https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/rainbow-trout.htm


You've been given some good info. And some bad. As you've already mentioned, these fish can sometimes be tricky. Rainbows and cutthroat are very closely related, and often times display characteristics of each other. This does not mean they are hybrids.

Often times rainbow trout will display throat slashes. This is exactly why the regulations at Panguitch read the way they do -- any cutthroat trout characteristics. I would argue the picture posted by the NPS site is also not a hybrid, but rather a plain old rainbow trout with throat slashes -- they are not that uncommon in rainbow trout. Here is a photo of a rainbow trout with throat slashes from Panguitch Lake this winter:










In your picture, you pointed out all the normal visual cues for a cutthroat -- orange fins, spot shapes, even the throat slash. The fins are the dead give-away. They are orange and have no white tips.

If you really wanted to be assured of the identification, you could count basibranchial teeth. Rainbow trout have none. Bonneville cutthroat have between 5-10. Fewer than 5, but more than 0 would be evidence of hybridization.

but, the most important characteristic I look at when trying to determine whether or not a fish is a hybrid is not with the fish itself. It's with the water it came from. Historically, Panguitch does not get very much reproduction from either rainbow trout or cutthroat. Based on this alone, I would not call your fish a hybrid. There just simply is not enough _successful_ natural reproduction happening here.

I hope this helps.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I only slept in a Holiday inn as well, but having pulled more Bear Lake cutts out of slot fisheries than I care to count, I might have a couple of things to add. (Yes, I agree that your picture is a garden variety BL cutt)

1. The stone cold 100% way to tell if it is a cutt in a slot fishery is to look at the pelvic and anal fins. BL cutts always have orange pelvic and anal fins. Other traits are less reliable as sometimes the cutts have a weak throat slash, and as noted, the bows often have a bright one. After you've caught a few, the overall coloration will be more recognizable and you can tell the BL cutts at a glance. But look at the pelvic and anal fins first. They won't lead you astray.

2. Do not get hung up on the spotting patterns of BL cutts. They vary widely. As an example, here is an old thread I made in the day when I was bored with my camera. Every pictured fish was a garden variety BL cutt from Strawberry. (and 2 bows) See for yourself the immense range of spotting patterns in just a few random fish.

https://utahwildlife.net/forum/20-area-51/33827-let-me-guess-you-put-away-ice-gear.html


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Catheder,

For some reason I don't have permissions for that hyperlink. Tried logging out and back in but it didn't help.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Oops, it is from a post in our old "confidential" folder, Area 51. 

I'm at work but will put the pics up on this thread tonight when I get home.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Thanks, definitely curious to see more photos. Don't want to get shot sneaking into Area 51 given the number of us with extensive firearm collections.:mrgreen:


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

backcountry said:


> Catheder,
> 
> For some reason I don't have permissions for that hyperlink. Tried logging out and back in but it didn't help.


You might want to contact a friendly moderator and have them set you up to get into area 51


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

backcountry, the tell-tale sign that your fish is definitely a bear lake cutthroat and not a hybrid is the pectoral fin in the picture. That nubby pectoral fin is dead giveaway that the fish was raised in a hatchery and is not wild. Because it is a hatchery fish, you can rest assured that it is a bear lake cutthroat. Utah does not raise cuttbow hybrids for stocking. A true cuttbow hybrid would have perfect fins in that drainage and, truthfully, the natural recruitment of bows and cutts in that system is probably so low that it doesn't happen often at all.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Wyoming2Utah,

That pectoral fin is nubby. That's the best indication its likely a hatchery fish I've seen. Thanks for cuing me on that feature as I hadn't even paid attention to it. Definitely more confident in cutthroat identification (ie they definitely don't stock cutbows like you peviously mentioned) I made on the ice before second guessing myself at home. Thanks for helping nudge me in that direction everyone. Will be interesting to see what else I catch up there and how much they resemble the stereotype.

In general, 

I'm curious why most of ya'll believe Panguitch has such low natural recruitment?

I ask as DWR specifically mentioned cutthroat x rainbow hybridization in the last survey report I could find ( 2008 ). They mention that outcome as they recommended they change rainbow stocking from infertile triploids to diploids from then on out (survival rate was abnormally low for triploids at Panguitch for an unknown reason). And Panguitch has two solid tributaries for spawning, Ipson and Bluesprings. They were affected by the Brian Head Fire but that still left almost a decade to spawn and hybridize in relatively healthy streams. And the primary streams, meadows and streamside forest were often unaffected despite nearby moderate to severe burning. 

As a side note, previous poor natural recruitment would be a direct side effect of infertile stock :mrgreen: At least for the years between 2001-2008. 

Also to clarify, the specialist I consulted gave me solid info, nothing bad. Anything wrong is how I presented their observations. Their hesitation to confidently differentiate between cutbows and cutthroat is based on skepticism rightfully earned after analysis of tens of thousands of samples from the west. Hybridization is just more common than historically credited and they've seen a ton of samples whose field identification was proven wrong by genetic analysis. That knowledge tends to encourage a certain degree of skepticism. That said, they wouldn't hesitate to identify it as Bear Lake BCT in the field for fishing regulation purposes though.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Ok, here is the series of 5 different fish that I caught in about an hours time. There were a couple more caught during that period but note the extreme variation in spotting in this random sample. These are all regular BL cutts from Strawberry.



Do you know what O. clarkii selerinis is?

Next, slightly more spots but very few still.



Next, slightly more.



To this.



To super spotted.



All these fish are just regular Bear lake cutts but they show the immense variety of spotting they can exhibit.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Thanks for sharing photos. After comment about nubby pectoral fin I'm definitely in agreement about identifying it as Bear Lake BCT. Having a better photo would have helped me stick to confidence on lake. Memory alone is just too mutable; I'm thinking the pinkish lateral colors were more in line with y'alls samples than I thought. 

I'm sure I was taught about O.c. Selerinis in passing in some class but I had to look it up from your reference. Clearly forgot about that subspecies.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

backcountry said:


> I'm curious why most of ya'll believe Panguitch has such low natural recruitment?


I know that with all of the most recent management plans regarding Panguitch, hybridization between cutts and bows was brought up as a possibility and it was even mentioned that this should be watched to see how prevalent it is. With that being said, I have personally just never seen any solid evidence that any natural recruitment is occurring. When I get a chance, I am going to discuss this with my dad and brother (It doesn't sound like you know, so I will spill the beans--my father is a retired DWR fisheries biologist who headed the southern region fisheries for many years and currently my brother holds that same position. PBH may have stayed at a Holiday Inn, but he has insider info that he leans on as do I.)


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> I'm curious why most of ya'll believe Panguitch has such low natural recruitment?


First of all, I'm impressed. You've done your homework. That's a breath of fresh air. Not many anglers like to educate themselves like you've done. Well done.

There are not that many places in Utah where rainbow trout successfully reproduce naturally. Especially in our Utah reservoirs where irrigation significantly impacts water levels of both the reservoirs and streams that enter / leave them. But we do have some (Pragonah Res prior to the fires, Kolob, etc.). Panguitch has the potential with Ipson and Blue Springs, and thus management plans have incorporated those possibilities to mitigate them. It's not that it can't, or won't. It's just that it's rare.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Thanks for insider info. I tend to assume if it can it will when it comes to such things as hybridization but that's just hedging bets. Real life data and anecdotes can easily trump that default. I have tended to stay away from Panguitch in the past but I'm getting to know it again. 

Sorry for poor wording in earlier post about expertise. Didn't intend for it to be aggressive but it ended up that way. Apologies for that. 

The fire damage to Paragonah is devastating. I just hadn't realized how rare natural recruitment in Utah was for some of these species. Just makes the trips to central Idaho taking my dad to natural cutthroat waters more profound. Ironically, at the end of one of those trips was when I took him up to Paragonah to bring home some table fare. Had been talking it up for a day or two. Sadly, it was the week of the first mudflow. I've known about mud and ash flows after big wildfires for 15-20 years but to see them firsthand after years of getting to know a place is a different story.

Will have to grab a lunch sometime with some of ya'll to chat. I promise I don't make as many missteps in person as I do on internet forums, where I don't seem to catch much of the history and subtext.

Thanks for chatting.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I never regarded any of your replies offensive in the least....so no worries there! If anything, we tend to get aggressive out of pure enjoyment of a good thing ol’ Fashioned debate. Would love to catch you n the lake sometime!


----------

