# Muzzleloader grouping Help!



## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

so, I went shooting with my ol' man today. I had 6 muzzy bullets left that I wanted to burn up. Here's my question. I'm new to muzzleloaders. I picked mine up last year in September and only shot it a handful of times..

the bullet I was shooting was a Barnes TMZ 290gr with 110gr of BH209.
These three shots were the first 3 out of the gun today at 100 yards. In the picture my target is a 2 inch black circle. From the middle of my circle to the center of the 3 shot group is 6.5 inches high NOTE: ( this was open sight shooting). 

I went out to 150 yards and aimed for the dead center and my shot hit just above the target, so I loaded again and shot. this time I was 4 inches high and 4 inches right (150 yds open sight).

so with my last shot, just for fun I adjusted my sight down and moved back into 100 yards. with the last shot I still hit 6.5 inches high back into my same 3 shot group..

What is my ML doing?? if its 6 inches high at 100 where is my zero hitting??

from what I can tell, my first 3 shots were 6 inches high, moving out to 150 yards 1 shot hit even higher and the other shot came back down (could have been my shooting). and moving back into 100 yds for my final shot after adjusting my sights slightly to bring my impact down, still hit 6 inches high. that's all I know. my grouping is great I'm just shooting a little too high and my 1 and only adjustment didn't seem to move the bullet

can someone with experience tell me what is going on with my gun?
help a rookie out??
I feel like all I need to do is just figure out how to bring my impact down to 3 inches high at 100


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

First step with any smokepole firing sabots is to walk down range and pick some spent ones up. Inspect them careful, do they look good? Do they have torn petals? The shape of the sabot after firing is my #1 thing to look at for accuracy issues.


-DallanC


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

I did look at a few of them on the ground, never did pick one up, but they looked like they opened up good, like a shotgun shell wad. my grouping is 1.5 inch at 100 yards with open sights.. pretty dang good I think, just shooting higher..

last year I shot 105 gr of BH209 and was hitting about 3 inches high at 100, but my grouping is tighter and more consistent with 110gr of powder, but it also seems to be shooting higher


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

Move your rear sight up... if it's grouping well, you have a good load/bullet combo... sounds like you just need to adjust your sights to get the zero you want.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't think that I could get my sights on a target at 150 yards using open sights. I have enough of a problem with peep sights at 100 and had to have a animal the size of a elk at 120 yards to shoot at last fall.

My ML deer hunts this year could get interesting with no scope on it.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

manysteps said:


> Move your rear sight up... if it's grouping well, you have a good load/bullet combo... sounds like you just need to adjust your sights to get the zero you want.[/QUOTE
> should I be moving my rear sights down if i want to bring my grouping down closer to center?? moving my sights up would be pushing it towards the end of the barrel on my rail, and down would be moving it towards the stock. you sure I should be moving up?? I thought with the rear sight you move it down to bring the bullet down


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## utahbigbull (May 9, 2012)

Goose... You must be one hell of an eagle eye. Personally, with stock sights, 150 yards is pushing the envelope for me personally. I wouldn't trust myself to shoot an animal past 125 without having cross hairs. You don't get any magnification but too much error can be made trying to line three things up (rear sight, front sight, and target). I shoot much better just being able to put cross hairs on the target. Slightest variation in the alignment of your stock open sights can easily lead to your several inches of variation. I have been way busy so sorry I hadn't gotten back to ya, but to answer your question from a couple days ago, I shoot 110 Gr of BH pushing a 290 grain Barnes TEZ.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

goosefreak said:


> manysteps said:
> 
> 
> > Move your rear sight up... if it's grouping well, you have a good load/bullet combo... sounds like you just need to adjust your sights to get the zero you want.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

Did you clean your barrel in between shots? having a dirty barrel can affect accuracy a lot. Especially if you are not getting consistent seating from unburned residue near the breach.


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## Shunter (Jul 23, 2014)

Warm/hot barrels can mess things up too. Not sure if muzzleloaders are affected as much as my 338 was earlier this year.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm shooting BH209 powder. that stuff is the cleanest burning powder on the market, but yes I swabbed between each shot.. I also waited 10 minutes between each shot..

I think I got it figured out though. my 290gr barnes is probably doing 1950fps with 110gr of BH209. my grouping at 100 yards with open sights is inside an 1.5 inches which is dang good, and I dont have anymore room on my rail to lower my sight. from my understanding and everything I have read online your supposed to move your rear sight in the direction you want the bullet to go as far as elevation goes 

so to solve my problem I just went ahead and bought a Vortex crossfire II scope. I hear it a good scope


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

oh I read your post wrong, I thought you were having trouble grouping.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

One thing I've seen is the 'hotter' charges (ie 110-120gr BH or 150gr of t7) can really open groups up at extended range. This is why I recommend to most that they at least shoot at what they consider their "max yardage". Similar to a regular rifle, all the components of the shot can come into play when having issues grouping.
*Primers*: often overlooked, inconsistently sized and burning primers can have a huge effect on accuracy. If you are burning a primer that's not hot enough for BH it can lead to inconsistent burning rates of the powder. Hotter primers with T7 and pyrodex can push the bullet off the seat.
*Powder*: if its older, clumpy has been stored improperly it can burn inconsistently. 
*Conicals*: some guns don't like conicals due to barrel design and tolerances.
*Sabots*: If you like a bullet, find a sabot to help it shoot good. There are many options to make sure it fits your barrel.
If one of these things are off, it can cause inconsistent grouping. I know many that have given up on great ML's because "The gun won't group". Just find the load your gun likes.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

sounds good guys. My muzzy is shooting 1.5 inch group at 100 yards with open sights. it groups AWESOME! the grouping is not the problem, the elevation is the problem. it is just shooting 6 inches high and I have no more room on my rail to lower my sights............so I bought a scope. 

with 105gr of BH209 powder I was right on the money with my elevation after doing some minor tweaking......I'v since bumped up to 110gr of BH209 and my elevation jumped up 3 or 4 inches, but it is grouping a lot tighter! ...so i'll throw my scope on it and dial it into the sweet spot.

thanks again guys for your help!


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

One option as well is to look at replacing your front site if you don't like the scope. I'm really curious to hear your report on the vortex scope. I seem to be the only person who doesn't like it.
Now I feel the itch to go shoot this weekend


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

I will post a report on the scope and my new point of impact, but it probably won't be for a month due to the fact that I don't know when i will be going shooting next. busy life right now..

I just spent the last few hours mounting, and bore sighting the scope fallowed by sneaking around the house pointing at hidden targets.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I have a 50 hawkin that the POI shifts with powder amount. 10 grain difference is a 6" shift in POI. 

-DallanC


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

goosefreak said:


> I'm shooting BH209 powder. that stuff is the cleanest burning powder on the market, but yes I swabbed between each shot.. I also waited 10 minutes between each shot..
> 
> I think I got it figured out though. my 290gr barnes is probably doing 1950fps with 110gr of BH209. my grouping at 100 yards with open sights is inside an 1.5 inches which is dang good, and I dont have anymore room on my rail to lower my sight. from my understanding and everything I have read online your supposed to move your rear sight in the direction you want the bullet to go as far as elevation goes
> 
> so to solve my problem I just went ahead and bought a Vortex crossfire II scope. I hear it a good scope


Why are you swabbing between each shot? foul your barrel and your velocity will remain consistent, your probably also going faster than 1950 with that load, and the Vortex crossfire is a good pick for the 1x.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

fastcamo said:


> Why are you swabbing between each shot? foul your barrel and your velocity will remain consistent, your probably also going faster than 1950 with that load, and the Vortex crossfire is a good pick for the 1x.


I swabbed each shot because I'm OCD you could say.. do you shoot BH 209? how many times can you shoot before you notice a change in accuracy?


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Yes, I am running 110 BH209 with a 300 harvester, you shoot quite a few before it changes, your sabot will kind of determine that also, I use a CR one, so it helps loading easier. Anyways, shooting through the chronograph , it only takes one shot to settle in on a pretty consistent speed, where as cleaning every shot has a big jump in FPS. Now that BH is available to us, take advantage of it, those days where shooting once and overexerting yourself to force a second one down with that dirty pyrodex is over. MY fouled running average is 2150FPS, and first shots after cleaning had very inconsistent speeds but all where increased, sometimes as much as 2400 fps.


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