# Spotting Scopes



## BigT

I am posing this question to try and get an unbiased response on spotting scopes. 

I have searched through the threads on this and saw some answers but some of the threads were years old so I wanted to hopefully get some help from fellow sportsman who might have a current model of these scopes. Or maybe compared them side by side. I have searched the web but I don't know what to believe as it seems some are in business with particular brands / companies. 

So money aside... I have some money set aside for a high end spotter. I have been looking at the ATS Swaro 20-60X65. I owned the old version of the Razor HD 16-48X65 a few years ago. Was by far my nicest scope I'd owned to that point, but wasn't using it like I thought I would. Since then, I've gotten into digiscoping and the scope I've got now is decent, I want higher quality pictures and video. I have the Cabelas Krotos HD 15-45X65 spotter. 

Still, even being able to possibly pull the trigger on the Swaro, I find it hard to justify. Is it that much more noticeably better than the Razor? Or even the Krotos for that matter? I know there are other scopes out there but these are the two I have been looking at. I have not gone to Cabelas and asked to go outside with the two yet.

I have the Vortex Razor HD binocs in the 10X42. I began reading reviews comparing them to the Swaro SLC HD binoculars in the same field. I started noticing the flaws with the Razors, and purchased the SLC. To me this was a night and day difference in glass. Maybe it's not to others. I still own both and compare them side by side. The Razors are pretty crisp, but not edge to edge. They are hazy around the perimeter as the reviews had stated. Maybe it's just the pair I have.. I don't know. The Swaro SLCs are crystal clear edge to edge. But at 600 more than the Razors, they should be better.

So, I am hoping someone has compared the Razor spotter side by side with the ATS Swaro. I would prefer spending less. But if it's that big of a difference, then I could justify the extra cost. I've also been reading the 25-50X65 with the wide angle lens is the best option for digiscoping. I don't know if anyone has experience with that. But that option adds a couple hundred more dollars. 

When looking at used items on KSL classifieds, there are page after page after page of Vortex products. There is one page of Swaro products. So resale seems better on the one over the other. 

Thanks in advance for your information on this!


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## grizzly

I have a Vortex spotting scope that I'm so disappointed with I don't even know where it is. Maybe my brother borrowed it?

I have also sold all my Vortex rifle scopes, except one, sold my Vortex rangefinder, and threw away my Vortex binoculars because the barrels got misaligned and I got so sick of constantly sending stuff in to get repaired. Sure, they have a great warranty program... you'll use it.

Buy a used Swarovski any day over a Vortex, you'll never regret it. And, yes, the 25-50 is the preferred eyepiece.

Let me throw one more wrinkle at you. Check out the Kowa 883/884. I just sold my Swarovski HD and bought a Kowa. I compared them side-by-side at Antelope Island a few months ago and the other guys Kowa clearly surpassed my Swarovski, which was surprisingly hard to admit to myself. These were on tripods looking at the same animal under identical lowlight conditions.

After glassing the last few months with the Kowa, and just getting back from Jackson yesterday after looking at elk, eagles, sheep, foxes, and moose... I'm convinced more than ever the Kowa is a better line. Everything else I own is Swarovski or Leica, but Kowa wins the spotting scope battle right now, IMHO.

There are some great comparison reviews on other hunting and birding sites if you're interested in reading more.


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## DallanC

grizzly said:


> I have a Vortex spotting scope that I'm so disappointed with I don't even know where it is. Maybe my brother borrowed it?


What spotter was it? Big difference between Razor, Viper and Diamondback models.

-DallanC


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## DallanC

BigT said:


> So, I am hoping someone has compared the Razor spotter side by side with the ATS Swaro. I would prefer spending less. But if it's that big of a difference, then I could justify the extra cost. I've also been reading the 25-50X65 with the wide angle lens is the best option for digiscoping. I don't know if anyone has experience with that. But that option adds a couple hundred more dollars.


Check out the hardcore bird watchers forums. They give alot of advice and reviews about scopes. Before I bought my razor, virtually every review was the same. Razor was only fractionally less than a swaro, for a third the price. My eyes have deteriorated enough in the past year that even if a swaro is crisper, I doubt I could notice the difference. So yea, went with razor, and couldnt be happer for the price. I took the other 2/3 cost of a swaro and used it on other fun things.

-DallanC


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## BigT

DallanC said:


> Check out the hardcore bird watchers forums. They give alot of advice and reviews about scopes. Before I bought my razor, virtually every review was the same. Razor was only fractionally less than a swaro, for a third the price. My eyes have deteriorated enough in the past year that even if a swaro is crisper, I doubt I could notice the difference. So yea, went with razor, and couldnt be happer for the price. I took the other 2/3 cost of a swaro and used it on other fun things.
> 
> -DallanC


Thanks. I have been looking into some birder reviews. Many complimentary reviews on Vortex. The Kowa scope looks really nice, but they seem to be a little more than the Swaro. Honestly, I thought the Razor HD binocs were decent until I started reading reviews and looked for flaws. Still, when comparing side by side with my SLCs, they compare ok, but just aren't as crisp edge to edge. I wouldn't mind going with an 80 or 85mm scope but want to pack with it some as well. The old Razor 85mm was huge to put it kindly... I haven't looked at them all that closely with the recent design change. The Swaro 80 or 85 is considerably smaller and lighter, but also 3 grand!


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## amp713

Check out rokslide they have a guy who does crazy in depth reviews on glass. I got a vanguard HD and it's decent but in a very different class. Honestly look at the company swaro is and how long it's been around. If you can afford it buy once cry once...


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## Critter

I have never looked through a Vortex spotting scope. But there is a store that has refurbished Vortex products. It is the type of store that if they have what you want you might save a bundle. 
http://aaoptics.com/

But I have always asked myself the question of just how many products come back for warranty work where they can have a store that sells refurbished items?

After saying that I spend 4 days in Arizona looking for my coues deer where most of those days were spent behind Swaro's, either binoculars or a spotting scope checking out the bucks. For my money I would go with the Swaro's.


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## Springville Shooter

I have the the Kowa and love it but I have friends with Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, and top end Vortex that all get the job done within the margin of error in my opinion. 

Personally, quality matters much more to me in a pair of binoculars than a spotting scope. I’d spend my money there first. —————SS


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## gdog

Great set of bino's on a tripod. My Swaro spotter is getting less and less used.


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## BigT

Springville Shooter said:


> I have the the Kowa and love it but I have friends with Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, and top end Vortex that all get the job done within the margin of error in my opinion.
> 
> Personally, quality matters much more to me in a pair of binoculars than a spotting scope. I'd spend my money there first. -----SS


I was looking into the Kowa on line today. Looks like a really nice scope. I do agree with you, the quality should be in the binoculars and I have upgraded those into the Swaro SLC HD glass. I could get into the Swaro EL, but from what I've read, the SLC was intended for big game hunters.

I think the scope I'd really like to have is the Swaro 25-50X65 with the wide angle lens. We shall see what happens by the time I pull the trigger.


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## BigT

gdog said:


> Great set of bino's on a tripod. My Swaro spotter is getting less and less used.


I've been the rounds with this. This is why I sold my first Razor spotting scope. It was never getting used. Ultimately, I've started digiscoping and enjoy it a lot. For the last year I've had my spotter with me on every trip including my pack ins. I love hunting, but I am loving finding these fantastic critters and videoing them...


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## Vanilla

I am a Vortex fan, and currently own the 16-48x65 Razor spotting scope. I have been happy with it, but I also realize it has its limitations. It is not as good of a product as the Swaro. Period. That said, it is less than half the cost, so unless money is not an issue, that is definitely a factor. 

All things being equal, the Swaro is a better scope. If I had the money to spend on Swaro over Vortex, I would personally do it. But my Vortex not only gets the job done, but gets it done well and I have enjoyed using it.


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## toasty

I have the Kowa 824 prominar and produces amazing images. I have the digiscoping adapter for it and use it to film stuff which I also enjoy, but don't do enough. I recently compared the Kowa 824 with a Vortex Razor 85mm gen2. This same Kowa is better than a swaro 80mm non HD model that I have compared side by side. The Razor was surprisingly good, but not quite as good of an image as the Kowa. I did prefer the focus ring on the Vortex to the Kowa.

Having said all that, I use my little Kowa 601 with a 30x eyepiece more than anything. It weighs half of the big scopes and is much more pleasant to pack. Here is some digiscoping form a Kowa 664 before I upgraded to the 823. I have some footage from the 823, but haven't taken the time to post it online. Most of these pdogs are 300-400 yards.
https://vimeo.com/172061214


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## Bax*

Because you are digi-scoping that really changes the nature of the game in my opinion.

If you were just lugging a scope around to spot deer to hunt, I would say that sticking with Vortex would be a good idea. If it breaks, you know that it will get fixed no matter what caused the damage. 

But with you wanting to take quality pics through a lens, that really changes the game. I would probably buy a Swaro if I were in your position as well.

I dunno if any sporting goods stores would be willing to take the optics outside with you to compare, but I think that would make things much easier to make a decision.


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## grizzly

FYI, cameralandny has a $500 instant rebate on Kowa right now for anybody that's interested.


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## justismi28

I'm with a lot of these guys, if you are looking for something for digiscoping you can't beat the Kowa. Read some birding forum reviews on them, the claim is the color is more true vs the swaro that produces more cool hues. 
If you are going high end, I don't think you'll find anything better than the Kowa, but there are probably some that are in the same class.


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## Bax*

Here are a few options with Kowa: https://www.eurooptic.com/optics/sp...2Q1LWEwMTQtOGVhNjkwZjM3MzVj&o=0&p=1&i=18&d=18

I have bought a few things from this company and they are pretty nice to work through.


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## DallanC

If great pictures are the main goal here, nothing will come close to a full frame DSLR with a great lens, period. That type of setup will blow a swaro of any kind /w digiscoping out of the water.


-DallanC


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## toasty

DallanC said:


> If great pictures are the main goal here, nothing will come close to a full frame DSLR with a great lens, period. That type of setup will blow a swaro of any kind /w digiscoping out of the water.
> 
> -DallanC


+1. I got frustrated trying to get professional quality images from a spotter and a DSLR. You can get some good images through a spotting scope, but you can not get professional images you can get with DSLR and a great lens, but that is going to run you much more money than a spotting scope.


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## DallanC

toasty said:


> ...but that is going to run you much more money than a spotting scope.


I agree a top end lens is expensive, but if a person only goes out a few times a year, its not overly expensive to rent a great lens for a trip. I didnt even know you can rent lenses until recently when a co-worker rented an amazing lens for an air show and got some stunning images. The cost was pretty reasonable IIRC.

Sooo maybe digiscope during a few scouting trips but when it comes time to record a OIL hunt or something, take the DSLR and rent a lens and get some truely amazing shots.

On the flip side, you can find some older lenses for cheap prices that are still optically perfect yet only lack a few new features of newer lenses (stabilization, AF etc).

-DallanC


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## Packout

If you buy a Swaro or Kowa used or demo from Cameraland, then you can always resell it if it doesn't fit your needs. It isn't like the investment is worthless, you might lose a $100 or 2. But if you buy one right it may become worth more than you pay for it......


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## gdog

Without question a DSLR with a prime lens is going to take better pictures/video then digiscoping with a spotting scope, but even with a high end zoom lens, your not going to get anywhere near the reach you can with a spotting scope.

You have to get MUCH closer with a DSLR setup. Even with a high MP camera and cropping, you're not taking pics/video from hundreds of yards. You need to be closer then you'd think. This was my 200-400 F4 Nikon Lens attached to a D300, mounted on a Wimberly gimbal and Gitzo legs. I also have a 1.7x teleconverter. The lens alone is just under $7k new and you certainly wouldn't want to pack it for miles on end. Awesome results, but just not practical for hunting/scouting purposes for critters a couple canyons away.

I'm with Packout....look for a used scope. There are some really good deals to be had, especially with all the hunts over and guys needing to pay off the credit cards from all the Christmas purchases.


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## toasty

gdog said:


>


It is on my bucket list to get a setup like this some day.


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## Bax*

toasty said:


> It is on my bucket list to get a setup like this some day.


its on my bucket list to live somewhere that has green grass like that year round!


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## BigT

toasty said:


> I have the Kowa 824 prominar and produces amazing images. I have the digiscoping adapter for it and use it to film stuff which I also enjoy, but don't do enough. I recently compared the Kowa 824 with a Vortex Razor 85mm gen2. This same Kowa is better than a swaro 80mm non HD model that I have compared side by side. The Razor was surprisingly good, but not quite as good of an image as the Kowa. I did prefer the focus ring on the Vortex to the Kowa.
> 
> Having said all that, I use my little Kowa 601 with a 30x eyepiece more than anything. It weighs half of the big scopes and is much more pleasant to pack. Here is some digiscoping form a Kowa 664 before I upgraded to the 823. I have some footage from the 823, but haven't taken the time to post it online. Most of these pdogs are 300-400 yards.


That is great quality through a spotter. As some have mentioned, not necessarily trying to get top notch quality. So DSLR though looks sweet, not quite there yet.

The Kowa looks pretty amazing! There are also some websites that offer a 10% discount on your first purchase including purchases on high end spotters. So there is a little break there.

Thanks for all the advice. Part of me wants to get the Razor and save the money and buy a nice pack.

Does anyone pack with the larger 80-85 mm scopes?


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## DallanC

Packout said:


> If you buy a Swaro or Kowa used or demo from Cameraland, then you can always resell it if it doesn't fit your needs. It isn't like the investment is worthless, you might lose a $100 or 2. But if you buy one right it may become worth more than you pay for it......


+1 to cameraland. I got my 85mm Vortex Razor from them and honestly it looked like the package had never been opened.

-DallanC


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## reb8600

grizzly said:


> I have a Vortex spotting scope that I'm so disappointed with I don't even know where it is. Maybe my brother borrowed it?
> 
> I have also sold all my Vortex rifle scopes, except one, sold my Vortex rangefinder, and threw away my Vortex binoculars because the barrels got misaligned and I got so sick of constantly sending stuff in to get repaired. Sure, they have a great warranty program... you'll use it.
> 
> Buy a used Swarovski any day over a Vortex, you'll never regret it. And, yes, the 25-50 is the preferred eyepiece.


What do you to with your equipment, throw it off cliffs? I have at least 8 Vortex scopes from the Diamondback to the Viper PST, 4 of the Diamondback binoculars the 1000 yard Range finder and just bought the Razor HD 27-60x85 spotting scope. I have been using their products for several years and have never had a problem with any of them.


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## ridgetop

BigT said:


> I was looking into the Kowa on line today. Looks like a really nice scope. I do agree with you, the quality should be in the binoculars and I have upgraded those into the Swaro SLC HD glass. I could get into the Swaro EL, but from what I've read, the SLC was intended for big game hunters.
> 
> I think the scope I'd really like to have is the Swaro 25-50X65 with the wide angle lens. We shall see what happens by the time I pull the trigger.


I've looked through the Swaro 25-50x65 wide angle in the field at low light conditions and it was pure awesome. If I had the money, that would be the scope and extra eye piece I would go with.


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## grizzly

reb8600 said:


> What do you to with your equipment, throw it off cliffs?


They are treated the exact same way as all my other equipment. I have one HSLR on a rifle that has performed well, but everything else has had problems.

I currently have, or have owned, items from:

- Leupold (my grandpa's old spotter and around a dozen rifle scopes),

- Leica (my current rangefinder and the original Geovids),

- Swarovski (rifle scopes, 80HD spotter, four pairs of Swaro binos)

- Kowa spotter (I've only owned it for a few months, so we'll see)

and all of the above have been flawless.

I had one Nikon rangefinder that quit working and the repair cost was greater than the Vortex so I bought that instead. Within two years, the Vortex had rangefinding inaccuracies of greater than 10% when compared to every other rangefinder/rangefinding binocular I compared it to. It was also consistently inaccurate... sometimes reading too high and sometimes too low. Geovid, EL Range, and Leica handheld were all within a few yards of each other every time. The Vortex was a literal crapshoot.

If I can put optics from 4 different manufacturers on the same guns and in the same pack and one brand is consistently breaking... I'll just go somewhere else.

Vortex claims to have the best warranty, but I subscribe to the belief that the best warranty is one you don't need to use.

Maybe I'm too tough on equipment to own Vortex products and the problem is me... I'm totally open to that possibility. But it doesn't change the fact that I have no interest in keeping products I don't trust, so I now choose to buy my optics elsewhere. I'm certainly happy for those that have better luck than I have had though. :grin:


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## reb8600

The last few months I have heard a lot of complaints about Leupold scopes from a lot of different people.


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## DallanC

reb8600 said:


> The last few months I have heard a lot of complaints about Leupold scopes from a lot of different people.


The market is flooding with counterfeit Leupolds. Leupold has issued a press release about it from owners sending in fake scopes for service thinking they are real.

It used to be you could buy a used Leupold scope and use it like you bought it new, complete with warranty. But now, there's too high of a chance of getting a fake on eBay or grey markets.

If you are buying a new Leupold from known store like Cabelas / Gunnies / Sportsmans etc you are fine.

-DallanC


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## reb8600

DallanC said:


> The market is flooding with counterfeit Leupolds. Leupold has issued a press release about it from owners sending in fake scopes for service thinking they are real.
> 
> It used to be you could buy a used Leupold scope and use it like you bought it new, complete with warranty. But now, there's too high of a chance of getting a fake on eBay or grey markets.
> 
> If you are buying a new Leupold from known store like Cabelas / Gunnies / Sportsmans etc you are fine.
> 
> -DallanC


I know about the counterfeits. This ones I am referring to are not counterfeit.


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## weaversamuel76

Only problems I read about are with the cds system failing. Seems like a few guys on the forums are making a big to do about it and the leg humpers are following suit. Are you saying you have had a failure?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## reb8600

I know some I saw were failures. I didn’t participate in the discussion about them so don have any details. They were die hard Leupold fans that liked to bad mouth Vortex and other companies so I kept my thoughts to my self.


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## Vanilla

grizzly said:


> - Swarovski (rifle scopes, 80HD spotter, four pairs of Swaro binos)


How many of those 4 pairs of binos do you still have? What are they? And how big of a discount will you sell them to me for? :grin:


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## grizzly

Vanilla said:


> How many of those 4 pairs of binos do you still have? What are they? And how big of a discount will you sell them to me for? :grin:


I had the original 10x42 SLC when they came in all-black. Then I sold those and got the original Leica Geovid's until I hunted Auodad with my friend and liked his new 10x42 SLC HD more so I sold the Leica and got the new the SLC's. I then bought my wife a pair of 10x50 SLC NEU (because they were cheaper than the new 10x42s) but soon found after comparing her binos to my brand new HD's, that her 10x50 NEUs were better binoculars so I sold my 10x42 HDs and bought a pair of 10x50's for myself.

My brother, dad, and hunting buddy have all since bought the 10x50 SLC NEU binoculars. I can't explain it, but they are brighter and crisper than even the new 10x50 ELs. There must've been something in the glass back then ;-)


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## BigT

Hey so quick question..

I am looking at a used Swaro spotting scope. Does anyone know much about the warranty on the Swaro if I bought from another owner? Does this warranty transfer? I assume it does not. 

Should I have any reservations about buying a used Swarovski spotter?

Thanks again for all the great input on this! I've decided to stay with what I have always wanted. I can't wait to get it.. I think the Razor looks decent, but I also think I'll have it in the KSL classifieds within the next year in order to buy the Swaro.


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## weaversamuel76

BigT said:


> Hey so quick question..
> 
> I am looking at a used Swaro spotting scope. Does anyone know much about the warranty on the Swaro if I bought from another owner? Does this warranty transfer? I assume it does not.
> 
> Should I have any reservations about buying a used Swarovski spotter?
> 
> Thanks again for all the great input on this! I've decided to stay with what I have always wanted. I can't wait to get it.. I think the Razor looks decent, but I also think I'll have it in the KSL classifieds within the next year in order to buy the Swaro.


Short answer yes the warranty transfers. Give them a call with the serial numbers and they can tell if it's been reported stolen or not you can also ask about the warranty covers. I found Swarovski to have great customer service

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## grizzly

I always call SONA (Swarovski Optik North America) before buying to confirm the SN is legit and has the USA warranty. I've bought some without lens caps and they've sent me free replacements without even charging for shipping. Great company.


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## BigT

Thanks everyone.

I bought a hardly used Swaro 25-50WX80 ATM spotter. I am stoked to use this thing.


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## Huge29

After reading through this thread a few times and others it got me to thinking more seriously about getting a scope after having thought about it for years. I was determined to just pick up a used Vortex Razor for about $700, but they were few and far between and I am in a rural area while most are upstate. So, Big T's posts about his Krotos got me thinking about other options. I saw that the 85mm Krotos came on sale for $700 and I about pooped myself. I read reviews from numerous websites and they all seem to say that the Krotos is made by Athlon and is very comparable to the Razor at double the price (when Krotos) is on sale. 
I tried it out tonight as the sun was down, about 5:45 and I was very impressed. Certainly out at distances of 2-3 miles it was hard to see, but keeping it out to about 600 yards it was very clear. I only currently have a Vortex Nomad, so this was a big step up for me. I was sure confused at first when there was no focus dial, but I eventually figured that out. It certainly is not a backpacking model as it was quite heavy and large.


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## DallanC

Krotus scopes are on sale new at Cabelas right now for $699:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/CABELAS-KROTOS-SPOTTING-SCOPE/2353154.uts

-DallanC


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## waspocrew

I've been very impressed with my Razor 16-48x65. They are out there for sure. The clarity blew my Viper HD out of the water.


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## toasty

Huge29 said:


> After reading through this thread a few times and others it got me to thinking more seriously about getting a scope after having thought about it for years. I was determined to just pick up a used Vortex Razor for about $700, but they were few and far between and I am in a rural area while most are upstate. So, Big T's posts about his Krotos got me thinking about other options. I saw that the 85mm Krotos came on sale for $700 and I about pooped myself. I read reviews from numerous websites and they all seem to say that the Krotos is made by Athlon and is very comparable to the Razor at double the price (when Krotos) is on sale.
> I tried it out tonight as the sun was down, about 5:45 and I was very impressed. Certainly out at distances of 2-3 miles it was hard to see, but keeping it out to about 600 yards it was very clear. I only currently have a Vortex Nomad, so this was a big step up for me. I was sure confused at first when there was no focus dial, but I eventually figured that out. It certainly is not a backpacking model as it was quite heavy and large.


If you are thinking about a vortex, you are not going to beat this deal on a vortex...

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...85mm-angled-body-green-with-pro-gt-tripod-kit


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## ridgetop

My Leupold Kenai is still for sale for $500
The 20-60x eyepiece is comparable to the Vortex Viper but the 30x wide angle eye piece is closer to the razor in quality.


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## Huge29

toasty said:


> If you are thinking about a vortex, you are not going to beat this deal on a vortex...
> 
> https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...85mm-angled-body-green-with-pro-gt-tripod-kit


Since that is the older generation ( newer version is all green) cabelas had those on clearance for 999. Not sure how the fancy the tripod is.


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## waspocrew

Huge29 said:


> Since that is the older generation ( newer version is all green) cabelas had those on clearance for 999. Not sure how the fancy the tripod is.


The link doesn't show the price now since they sold out. The spotter and tripod combo was on sale for $875 shipped. That was an excellent deal!


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## reb8600

Couple weeks ago I picked up a new Vortex Razor HD 27-60x85 for $740. Couldn’t pass it up.


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## millsjack

I've been very impressed with my RazorHD 20 60×85


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## DallanC

millsjack said:


> I've been very impressed with my RazorHD 20 60×85


Love mine too.

-DallanC


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## JC HUNTER

DallanC said:


> Love mine too.
> 
> -DallanC


X2.


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