# Spearfishing Massacre -- Legislature?



## Leemun (Feb 20, 2008)

Too bad the original Fishlake topic is locked. There is obviously more that needed to be said. This post is sparked by that topic. When I read this and the comments last week it made me sick.

Several people talked about the need for some law or regulation that would put a stop to this kind of thing.

If I were to draft a bill and bring this to the legislature or a proposed reg for DWR, what specifically would it need to say? I am open to suggestions. You all understand the issue better than me.


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

What conditions justify decreasing sporting opportunities in public waters?

With respect to game fish, my opinion is that it would be warranted to address:
1) Over harvest is resulting in population declines that are detrimental to management objectives for the water and the quality of fishing.
2) Recruitment is below management objectives (meaning not enough fish are able to spawn to maintain a healthy population).

Neither is true at Fish Lake. If you've read any of the previous threads, you already know that the population of trophy mackinaw in the lake has been stable and healthy for about 20 years now. Plenty of fish are spawning (if not too many) to maintain this. Also, spear fishermen account for 1% of the total take. This means that if over harvest was an issue, it would actually be hook & line anglers who would need to be restricted as they are responsible for 99% (over 700 macks yearly).

If there is absolutely no detrimental effect from the very small number of fish taken from Fish Lake by spear (in this case 13), why in the world should opportunity be limited or eliminated? When a mack is killed at Fish Lake by an angler, what does it matter if it was bonked on the head and tossed in a live well or taken by any other legal means? A dead mack is a dead mack. The actual fact of the matter is that spear fishing has no significant impact whatsoever on mackinaw populations at Fish Lake. If there were a problem, the focus would need to be on the 99% rather than the 1% to initiate meaningful change anyway.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

You have my support for any legislation that puts further restrictions on spearfishing, especially for gamefish


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## Gameface (Jun 7, 2008)

15 people caught 13 macks and it's being referred to as a massacre.

What's the argument you're going to use to restrict spear fishing, that it's bad to kill fish? That sounds like a great argument for a fisherman to use.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

I believe that the fish that spearfishermen are killing are trophy fish (at least from the pics that I saw). These fish are valuable and maybe there should be something like a catch and kill card for spearfishermen. Many states require a catch record for fish that are deemed to be valuable. Go to California, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho. I think something like this would be a valuable tool in tracking the catches of trophy fish taken by spearfishermen. Honestly, I think this would be a good idea for conventional fishermen too. How many pictures do each of us need of trophy fish gutted in our kitchen sink each year? I'm good with a couple each year.

This is just one suggestion. I would really like to see a very small reg book, but that would require ethical decisions made by everyone. Unfortunatley, there are a lot of greedy Hunters and Fishermen who care more about getting a hero shot and slabbing another soon to be freezer burned piece of meat in their freezer than just letting one go.

As more information and knowledge about fisheries and other wildlife comes to light, we have to act responsibly according to that knowledge. The days where a picture of a stringer full of trout was a thing to be proud of are long gone. We now know that selective harvest is the name of the game. Letting the large female fish free to go helps with recruitment of large and healthy fish for the next generations. Of course, some areas have an overpopulation of fish where keeping a few selected fish of a certain size helps the fishery, the Provo River brown trout to name just one. Unfortunately the catch and release mentality goes too far and we get too much of a "good thing." No one will keep any fish. I have gotten some dirty looks when keeping fish from that river, but the DWR has asked fishermen to keep a few browns und 15". Regardless of the dirty looks, I keep a couple every now and then. 

It is sometimes tough to let that big one go. I have kept some really nice fish, but the more I fish, the less I have felt the need to keep some of the trophy sized fish I have caught. I take a nice picture on the water and that is good enough most of the time. I will say I kept one really nice fish this year in order to have it mounted, and I am pretty excited.

Anyways, I just fear for our great fisheries in Utah. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and saw firsthand what overfishing and other impacts have on fisheries. Utah is a great place to fish and we need to each give up a little here and there in order to maintain that level of fisheries.


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Pez Gallo said:


> I believe that the fish that spearfishermen are killing are trophy fish


Pez: I agree with some points you have made about being active in protecting our fisheries. What Gameface, myself, and others have really been driving at is to set aside the emotions associated with a sport you probably don't participate in and think of 1 good reason why spearfishing should be limited.

With reference to your above quote, the population of TROPHY mackinaw at Fish Lake has been healthy and stable as measured scientifically since the mid-1980's. There is no downside at all to removing the inconsequential number of mature fish we are talking about here.

None of the current biology suggests anything other than a very health recruitment situtaion. None of the current data suggests over harvest. No one has posted a single, viable, factual argument about why banning or reducing spear fishing at Fish Lake would help the fishery. The mack population is not in danger, it's thriving.

Fish Lake easily supports, without any reduction in quality, the harvest of FIFTY THREE times the number of fish these guys speared EVERY YEAR by H&L anglers. It's pretty tough to make any kind of logical case that shaving a handful of fish off the 700+ yearly harvest is anything but totally inconsequential.

Are there any reasons outside of your gut feeling/personal opinion, any whatsoever, that are supported by the trophy mackinaw population data at Fish Lake, the biology of the fishery, or the management objectives currently in place that support spear fishing restrictions?

Again, I don't spear fish for macks. I have no agenda, and don't know any of the guys involved in the tournament. I simply like to base my judgements on facts and make informed decisions. I'm open to seeing a supporting argument from you or anyone who has commented against the practice that provides a compelling basis for new regulations.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

My main point is the value of trophy fish to a fishery (in dollars and in genetic material) and the ethics of taking more than one's share from any resource.

Also, everyone is only talking about Fish Lake. Take a look at pictures of the speared trophy walleye taken out of Deer Creek. Most people don't even realize those fish even exist.

Spearfishing seems to have more in common with hunting than with fishing. The only thing in common is the resource, and nothing in common with the methods of the sport itself. 

What I am saying is that because of the value of the resource and the method of harvest, maybe spearhunting (as I would like to call it) should be regulated more like hunting. Require a catch record with a limited number of gamefish that can be harvested per year. There is no reason that a spearhunter should be allowed to harvest more than their fair share of the trophy animals in the resource. If any "sportsman" feels that they should be allowed to harvest more than their share, that is plain ignorance and greed and should not be allowed or applauded.

This is all my own opinion, and I am just trying to do my best to get to 4o posts!


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

Peterson....

Now that I have my 40 posts, how about a little bit of that confidential reports priveleges? 

I agree with a lot of what you wrote, but please do not think that I am only going on a gut feeling, or that my arguements are not based on a logical thought process.

Besides the obvious problems that could occur with a growth in the popularity and increased practice of spearhunting in a freshwater environment, there are other aspects of spearhunting that I find at least questionable.

I believe that our natural resources are for all to enjoy with equal opportunity. What bothers me ethically about spearhunting is the total lack of an annual limit of trophy fish that can be taken by a spearhunter. It seems as if trophy fish come a little too easily to spearhunters. Those fish are very valuable. Again, not in just a genetic sense, but in dollars and cents! How many dollars do you think a 25lb mac out of fish lake is worth? How about a 10lb walleye? A 15 lb rainbow? With how easily spearhunters are able to find and kill trophy fish, they are taking far MORE THAN THEIR FAIR SHARE of a resource on average. I believe this is an unfair allotment of a resource to a small population of the sportsmen persuing these fish. It all comes down to the greed of individual sportsmen. Unfortunately, greed overpowers ethics in most aspects of life. I do not think it unfair to restrict spearhunters to a few trophy fish per year. If you could guarantee me a few trophy fish per year, I would be estatic!

Also understand that my feelings about trophy fish extend to conventional fishermen as well. Taking home only the largest fish you catch everyday is not a good practice. Evidence of this is the size restrictions you see placed on certain fish on select waters. Conventional fishermen who consistantly keep only the largest fish they catch need to rethink their harvesting practices, especially when they complain about there "not being any big fish anymore" in their favorite waters. It is a good practice to selectively harvest fish according to size. Spearhunters have an eccellent opportunity to do this, as they only shoot what they see, but I hardly suspect that most will without the regulations forcing them. The same could be said of most conventional fishermen.

No matter how large or small the population of spearhunters is, they should act ethically in regards to a resource. To me that means putting more into a resource than you take from it.

I believe in acting proactively, not reactively. Why wait for the possibility (however slim that may be) of spearhunting to have a negative impact on our state's fisheries. Nip it in the bud now. Also, why not stop the unfair harvesting of trophy animals by a small special interest group? Why give a select few the keys to taking more than their fair share of our natural resources?

Ethics has a lot to do with our natural resources, not just the percentages, fish counts, stocking reports or any other data people want to source as evidence to support an argument.

Of course, all of this pales in comparison after realizing the Sox are going to a game seven tomorrow!


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

Peterson,

thanks for setting me up with the access to the reports forum...

I appreciate your comments, even if they do not agree with my own. It doesn't make you wrong, just different. If I have the opportunity to change behavior I see as unethical, especially when it deals with a resource I care very much about, I will do what I can to change the laws to reduce that unethical behavior. I do not believe it to be "wrongheaded" to act in this way, but consider it not only my right, but my responsibility. Hopefully I can attend a RAC meeting in the future, if not I am going to write to as many people as possible to see what can be done. With luck, there are enough others that are like minded as I and the laws regarding spearhunting change as to not allow a few people to unfairly take more than their share from our natural resources.


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## handsomefish (Nov 14, 2007)

Legislation? They just changed the regs this year
Last year they could keep two game fish with only one over 20" but were not subject to any speical restrictions
This year they have the same bag limit as anglers and are subject to the same ristrictions as anglers on any of the 14 bodies of water they are allowed to spearfish in
They are not entitled any thing more than anglers


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## Flyfish4thrills (Jan 2, 2008)

*Missing the Point*

I think some of you are missing the point. Did you see photos of the spearfishing tournament with somebody holding a 12 inch rainbow or only small perch??? Why is that? Because it does not yield the same results as normal fishing!! The general public is not pulling out trophies EVERY SINGLE TIME they go fishing, or even every 5 times they go fishing, or even every year they go fishing. Most people will never catch a trophy in their entire lifetime. They cannot choose the fish they catch. It is based on blind luck. You choose your bait/attractor, but you don't choose which fish of the lake ends up on the end of your line. I would be interested to see how many total trophies the spear fisherman kill in a year and how many trophies they kill vs how many 12 inch rainbows they kill in a year.

Just because there is a law on the books allowing something doesn't make it ethical. Just because it is perceived by some that it doesn't hurt the general public, doesn't make it ethical. The 1% argument is a poor argument. Why do we go after poachers? Do the few fish they harvest hurt the overall population? "We have stable numbers" so why have enforcement? Seriously, enforcement is a joke anyway. In my literally thousands of times fishing, I have seen about 5 enforcement officers, and only half of the time was I asked to show my license. But I've digressed. The law changed in the past year in order to "simplify" regulations. In previous years spearfishing was not allowed during the spawn (season was from June 1 through Sept. 30....do you think this had anything to do with the stable numbers?) and numbers and sizes were restricted (not simply based on the standing regulations of each water). This year, if the lake allowed 4 fish, you could cull 4 trophies! In the past, it was limited to 2 fish, with one over 20" on all lakes where spearfishing was allowed, except Flaming Gorge (one laker over 28") (I'm not going to restate all the rules, so don't write back that I left some of them out for specific waters). The previous regulations should be reinstated. Spearfishing should not be allowed during the spawn. Spearfisherman should also be required to purchase a separate tag (at cost of the paper only). This would facilitate the monitoring of spear fisherman numbers from year to year. They should also be restricted as to the number of fish over a certain length and weight that are taken per lake and per year.

Just because it is on the books, doesn't make it ethical.


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## Gameface (Jun 7, 2008)

So the point is that spearfishing is more effective than H&L fishing, yields better results and makes H&L fisherman jealous. I get it now.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Gameface said:


> So the point is that spearfishing is more effective than H&L fishing, yields better results and makes H&L fisherman jealous. I get it now.


BINGO!


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

*Re: Missing the Point*



Flyfish4thrills said:


> I think some of you are missing the point.
> 
> Just because there is a law on the books allowing something doesn't make it ethical. Just because it is perceived by some that it doesn't hurt the general public, doesn't make it ethical. The 1% argument is a poor argument. Why do we go after poachers? Do the few fish they harvest hurt the overall population? The law changed in the past year in order to "simplify" regulations. In previous years spearfishing was not allowed during the spawn The previous regulations should be reinstated. Spearfishing should not be allowed during the spawn. Spearfisherman should also be required to purchase a separate tag (at cost of the paper only). This would facilitate the monitoring of spear fisherman numbers from year to year. They should also be restricted as to the number of fish over a certain length and weight that are taken per lake and per year.
> 
> Just because it is on the books, doesn't make it ethical.


+1000 like I said in a previous post kinda like shooting game that's been eating from feed hoppers all year and a week before the hunt remove the feed hoppers that have been feeding these animals for 51 weeks out of the year. How is that even considered a fair hunt? :roll:

We can only hope the ROE are changed for next year. As one DWR employee stated to me in an e-mail... "senior DWR officials will have egg-on-their-faces over this." 

Simplifying and laxing the spearfishing rules was an ole poo pah by senior SLC DWR officials. Hopefully they'll (DWR officials) learn from this lesson and re-instate the previous ROEs including more specifics about other game fish.

And as far as H&L anglers being jealous...I for one am not jealous and I'll say a vast majority of H&L anglers aren't jealous either. We just found it ethically very, very, very questionable...to go after a throphy fish during a known spawn including being the "only" state that allowed this to happen...give me a break with statements about H&L anglers being jealous...that's as far from reality as one can get IMHO. :wink: :wink:


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Flyfish4thrills said:


> Why is that? Because it does not yield the same results as normal fishing!!


Poor argument coming from a fly fisherman. At Scofield this Spring I caught 38 trout during the same time period that a guy fishing with worms caught 3. Is developing a skill that takes a great deal of practice and dedication cause for discrimination to slant the odds in favor of the less skilled? You've clearly never spear fished. One of the reasons these guys had excellent success is that they are highly practiced, experienced sportsmen. You can't just go buy some gear and do as well.



Flyfish4thrills said:
 

> They cannot choose the fish they catch. It is based on blind luck.


BS - fishermen target individual fish all the time. True, this is not something that is done when trolling for example, but I commonly sight fish for specific trout.



Flyfish4thrills said:


> Spearfishing should not be allowed during the spawn.


Sorry, but this again shows you don't know much about the sport you are deriding. Again, these guys are not on SCUBA, they are free diving. This requires a couple of things in order to be done safely, as in without risking injury or death. 1) Water temps need to be high enough to avoid hypothermia (you spend 1+ hour at a time in the lake). This means 55 degrees or higher. 2) Fish need to be shallower than about 30 feet. In other words, this is the ONLY TIME the sport can be practiced at Fish Lake. The fish are only shallow arond ice off and during the spawn, but at ice off the water is 33 degrees and therefore certain hypothermia for free divers. The only other time the fish come shallow is the spawn, so again what you are really asking is that these people just give up their sport by eliminating the only opportunity to practice it. What if we limited fly fishing at the lake to Feb-March? Well you'd have about the same chance of catching a fish casting to an 8" hole in the ice sheet as these guys would free diving when the fish are 80 feet deep.

Incidentally the whole spawning argument is a joke. Fishermen of all sorts target spawners every single year all over the state and world. Go to Flaming Gorge, Fish Lake, Scofield, Minersville, or any lake that has a real or false spawn. You'll find guys packed into inlet bays or false spawning beds. Why? They are targeting the spawners. Go to Alaska, Oregon, or Washington during the salmon run and you will see thousands of anglers doing what? Targeting the spawners. It only becomes a bad thing if over harvest damages recruitment and that's not happening here.

Again, not a fact or relevant piece of data in any part of the statement. Just bad blood and lack of understanding leading to intolerance.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: Missing the Point*



k2muskie said:


> Flyfish4thrills said:
> 
> 
> > I think some of you are missing the point.
> ...


Who is this *'we'* K2 ?? *\-\*


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

I think you all make good arguments... I think the reason for the push on more restriction is because of emotion to a few pictures... How many time do you think we go out and catch "TROPHY" fish? Its not every time.. Do some of us go out and participate in this sport as much as we can. Yes. Are we just as proud as some of the H and L guys when we get trophies? Of course... I think the argument of imposing more restrictions because we harviest trophy fish is an emotional one. Not a logical one. Hook and Line guys harvest trophies as well. 
For the argument that not every hook and line guys get trophy fish. I say look at any saturday morning tv and you will see hook and line guys pulling trophy fish out. So it is just as much skill as a pro spearfishermen. 


James Hardesty


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## flydaddy834 (Sep 11, 2007)

i think one of things i found wrong was when some of the henchmen come on the foroum calling out to basically invade utah and kill all trophy fish they can find. some of the threads that has been locked thats how it started at least one of them did.

this says alot about this group. maybe you guys are mad at some of us blasting you on here but to OPEN a thread saying "i call on all spearfishmen" dont sit to well with me. you say you are sportsmen but to me i sounded like a bunch of grown men acting like little boys. that was one of biggest gripes with all this besides the spawned fish that were taken. you dont come into a another state flaunting this saying you are going to hit utah waters even harder cause some of us let you know we didnt like it. the way some of us have acted has not been perfect neither are the rulz on this matter. just my thoughts.


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

scubadown16 said:


> I think you all make good arguments... I think the reason for the push on more restriction is because of emotion to a few pictures... How many time do you think we go out and catch "TROPHY" fish? Its not every time.. Do some of us go out and participate in this sport as much as we can. Yes. Are we just as proud as some of the H and L guys when we get trophies? Of course... I think the argument of imposing more restrictions because we harviest trophy fish is an emotional one. Not a logical one. Hook and Line guys harvest trophies as well.
> For the argument that not every hook and line guys get trophy fish. I say look at any saturday morning tv and you will see hook and line guys pulling trophy fish out. So it is just as much skill as a pro spearfishermen.
> 
> James Hardesty


Won't disagree but the ROEs were changed this year...correct? So if the ROEs stayed the same as in past years there wouldn't be an issue of this magnitude...correct?

Question: Why did you pick to have this spearfishing tourney during a "known" spawn??? This is one question I have yet to seen answered or maybe I just missed it. :|

Don't get me wrong everyone has the right to enjoy their hobbies to the fullest...However this years ROEs changed....and this is just me...but I do believe this tournament was specifically held to conincide with a known spawn that was made legal by SLC senior DWR officials because not being totally innocent you and others knew you'd most likely get some nice fish...please correct me if I'm wrong. :?

I for one hope the ROEs are changed for next year plus all H&L anglers need to READ the ROE guide book...I also hope because of this the DWR also places in affect clearier ROEs for other trophy game fish in the state of Utah.

Bottom line trying to make things simplified for the entire state was not a very wise decision IMHO. Some things can't be made simple and need to stay as they were in the past. :|

I sincerely wish you guys all the best with your hobby and we'll all just wait and see what the 2009 ROE guide book states and if it remains the same as this year. :wink: :wink:


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

From my discussions with the DNR. I don't think your going to see any big changes in the ROE with regaurds to spearfishing next year.. But who knows what will happen...

My tournament was held at that time of year because it fit best with my other three tournaments on the schedule. It didn't have anything to do with the spawn... I know this might be hard to believe but its true... If I wanted to host a tournament during the spawn I would have hosted it later in the month when the fish are spawning... Not pre-Spawning.. I picked the 4th of October because it was a little over a month from the tournament that was in Nebraska on the 23rd of August. I knew the weather would be turning cold so I didn't want to push to far into October. I didn't have it in September because I bow hunt for elk during that month... I hope this clears that question up. 

As far as my "CALLING ALL SPEAROS" Well that had to do with a bunch of close minded, name calling, SOB's, who think that they are higher then thow. And go onto a spearfishing forum to try and find what they think is evidence of doing illegal activities. Well, I was Just making a point that I can fight back and push peoples buttons too. What we do is legal right now, and if people want to accuse us of doing wrong and try and past more rules to limit us further because of a couple of pictures of some nice fish. Welll I am going to push for spearos to come and shot fish while its legal and nothing can be done about it. I usually don't get heated up... But I have seen this same BULL SH*T on several threads and its getting old. 

Its not like we just target Utah... I happen to have a year long liscens in 6 different states. I hunt Florida, Texas, Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Nebraska, as well as Mexico. I personally happen to have spent a total of 6 days fishing in Utah. I am sure that at best I might have taken is four trophy fish from your state. I hate the argument and statements about "Colorado Boys" Coming into "My State" and taking " My fish". I happen to be a pro and been doing this for years... Most of the guys who join up with me don't harvest as many fish as I do. I can put up pictures of guys who only shot perch and suckers.. I even had a spearo come and didn't shot a single fish... 

Its sad that I and a couple of my fellow spearos have had to explain ourselves for doing something that is legal. And been called names and so on. I have choosen to respond because I have some compation for your guys is feelings. And I want to educate others about our sport. I get tired of seeing boats come to close to us... Name call.... and so on. The lakes and fish are suppose to be enjoyed by all. 

Thanks 
James Hardesty


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

Thank you S16 for your explanation and I can understand with the weather. Everyone at times will throw "spears" (no pun intended 8) ) and resort to typing and submitting posts to threads that maybe we shouldn't have.  

I've learned especially on a forum like this to have very thick skin to the best of my ability and sometimes I'll admit I type and hit submit when I should just walk away...reflect and then come back log off or just hit the "Delete" key. 

I wish you and all the others the best and good luck in future tourneys. Above all be safe and have FUN!! :wink: :wink:


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## GRIFF (Sep 22, 2007)

I somewhat take offense to the fact that someone wrote "it is based on blind luck". Are you saying catching big fish has nothing to do with skill? So the time I spend fishing and gaining experience, learning to read water, learning about a fishes habits, tying flies, and reading books is of no benefit?

Landing big fish is a skill, no matter how it is done and we should all respect that. Lets face it, if these guys were holding a rod and reel we would all be patting them on the back.

Later,
Griff


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## flydaddy834 (Sep 11, 2007)

if they were holding rod and reel they wouldnt be holding that many big fish.............................. 

as a pro i would expect class and knowing its spawn or pre spawn knowing that these waters hold big fish you would have chosen another or at least another time. respect these waters as a pro respect all waters know matter what state thats what i would do. i never understood the importance of catch release and think of the water in a future sense and what it can produce and provide for so many whether it be out of staters or locals.


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## Flyfish4thrills (Jan 2, 2008)

OK. I guess none of you read my handle....or have never flyfished. I first started bait fishing as a child, then moved to exclusively spinner-fishing at 10 (tired of sitting and waiting for a bite). Then I moved on to flyfishing. In the past 5 years I have jumped into bass fishing. Spin fishing increased my catch rate for trout 4 fold, and fly fishing almost 4 fold over that! And yes, I have caught more than 60 fish in a day (and released every single one). I have kept 1 fish in 4 years (under 20" rainbow for my sister to eat). Don't lecture me on it not taking skill. That is all pretty obvious. Your arguments are synonymous with shooting with a laser guided missle. It takes lots of skill. It takes hours of preparation and not anybody could do it. That is surely correct. That doesn't make it ethical. That does not mean it should be allowed or even allowed under the same rules as regular fishing. If flyfishing advanced to the point where every time a flyfisherman fished, they pulled out a trophy, would it be ok???? I would be in favor of restricting that sport as well. I believe the laws should be changed. I am not calling for spearfishing to be abolished. You are acting as though I am. Are you afraid we are trying to take away your wonderful deal of monster fish every time you fish....you bet. When you are able to get a trophy every single time you spearfish, instead of a couple in a lifetime, the laws need to be changed so that the results fall in line with the norm. This is not in line with different types of line fishing. This is like looking in a fish tank at walmart and picking your trophy. Take the best flyfisherman in the world and the best spearfisherman in the world, put them on Flaming Gorge for 100 fishing days and see the results. 200 trophies for the spearfisherman and 10 trophies for the flyfisherman. There is no comparison. All hook and line fishing is within the same realm. Spearfishing is not, and should not be compared in the same manner. I totally agree with everything you wrote Griff. I know that my ability to catch fish is not blind luck. However, with all your skill in the world, you can't pick out the trophy of your choice and take it home with you (if you wanted to kill it). However, spearos can. And yes, if it were a rod and reel fisherman, I would pat them on the back. As the trophy bag rate is infinitesimally smaller as compared to spearos, it would be an accomplishment. However, if this became the norm (as it is with spearos), I would be behind a change in regs for them as well.

I am not as concerned about the time of year spearfisherman fish. If the spawn is the only time that the fish are within range to practice the sport, then fine. Other states, however, do not allow this spawn spearfish culling, and Utah, until this year did not allow it. My problem is the specific result of killing mainly trophies. Why aren't the spear fisherman targeting small fish during the spawn???? Would they be spear fishing if all they could target were small fish? Would they come to Fish Lake or Flaming Gorge if all they had were 12 - 18 inch rainbows? Would they be in the sport at all if that was all they could go after? Go ahead and answer that Spearos.

Assume I have a car dealership and I hold a drawing for prizes. Some prizes are car stereos, some are bumper stickers, and 5 are brand new vehicles. Through some means I allow my friend to get a winning ticket to one of the cars. You may call it an unfair advantage, while he calls it cunning and skill. This valued prize was not obtained in the fair and equal way the others were required to obtain it. 

How about allowing dipnetting? How about pitchforking? None of you responded to why we don't ignore poaching.

It is not a bad sport. It should not be banned. It is actually something that I am interested in doing. I swam competitevely in college, and love to fish....it could be a really fun matchup. However, I believe that how the current rules are written, it is an unfair advantage. Either the size/number of fish needs to be restricted, or the length of season, beyond that of h&l fisherman, that's all.


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

Agree with all stated...but unfortunately everything was above board for spearfishing. Now as far as other trophy game fish...the ROEs left it open for interpertation IMHO. :? 

So to all...do like PBH and numerous others have implied and/or stated ...contact the DWR via and e-mail and/prand attend a RAC and speak up...other than that you'll have no one to blame as you did what you could to voice your opinion...I execised the e-mail route...others may want be more vocal and attend a DWR RAC. :wink: :wink:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Flyfish4thrills said:


> I am not as concerned about the time of year spearfisherman fish. If the spawn is the only time that the fish are within range to practice the sport, then fine. Other states, however, do not allow this spawn spearfish culling, and Utah, until this year did not allow it. My problem is the specific result of killing mainly trophies. Why aren't the spear fisherman targeting small fish during the spawn???? Would they be spear fishing if all they could target were small fish? Would they come to Fish Lake or Flaming Gorge if all they had were 12 - 18 inch rainbows? Would they be in the sport at all if that was all they could go after? Go ahead and answer that Spearos.
> 
> However, I believe that how the current rules are written, it is an unfair advantage. Either the size/number of fish needs to be restricted, or the length of season, beyond that of h&l fisherman, that's all.


First, why would a 'sportsman' intentionally target the smaller fish? Nonsensical!

Second, my least favorite saying in the English language is "it's not fair, or that is unfair". It depends on who is looking at it and where they are standing when they determine what "fair" is. What is "fair" should have NOTHING to do with fish and game management! It should be based on what is good for the fish and game. EVERY single sportsman could come up with things that are not "fair' in their collective outdoor pursuits, so who gets to decide what is "fair", and why? When are 'sportsmen' going to ACT like sportsmen and not worry about what is "fair' to me as an individual and instead focus on what is good for the specie(s) and sportsmen in general? Shame on us for causing 100% unwarranted and unnecessary division amongst ourselves. All it does is hurt ALL sportsmen.


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## flydaddy834 (Sep 11, 2007)

anyone have email address to voice my opinion... thats the question


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## GRIFF (Sep 22, 2007)

There are flyfishers that are so good every time they go out they do catch trophy fish. Look at Landon Mayer, I would bet he catches a trophy trout (or what most people would consider a trophy) every time he goes out. Because he is proficient at what he does should he be regulated? I know he releases the fish he catches, but lets face it fishing is a blood sport. Not every fish that is released survives, I would bet larger fish suffer a higher mortalitly due to the amount of energy they expend. 

I think there is a misperception that Joe Schmoe can pick up a speargun and a snorkel and kill trophy fish. I do not think this is the case. They probably put in as much time as the rest of us honing their skills.

As far as the spawning issue, I agree with threshershark. What is the difference between what they did and the multitudes of people who fish the Green during the brown spawn? I would imagine people tromping on redds on the Green does as much damage to a fishery as killing a dozen lake trout in fish lake.

Later,
Griff


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

flydaddy834 said:


> anyone have email address to voice my opinion... thats the question


[email protected]


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

First off, considering that the legislature this year needs to deal with a budget shortfall, education and transportation issues, and all of the state agencies (including the DWR) begging for whatever fiscal crumbs they can get, I find it ludicrous that it could be expected that any state legislator would care at all about a fishing regulatory issue as small as this. However, I do still have concerns about spearfishing spawning macks at Fish lake. Before I continue, let me say that spearfishing sounds fun, and as far as I am concerned, I have no problem with these guys having at it in various places for species routinely harvested by the rest of us, now that the spear guys are required to abide by the same bag and slot limit regs for a given water that the rest of us fish by. I have actually enjoyed the pics. Heck, I might even like to try it sometime.

During these discussions regarding Fish lake, A study has been referred to, conducted about a decade ago. I will refer to it for the balance of this post. Follow along if you would like.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/fishing/fish_l ... _trout.pdf

I believe that it was Mark Twain that said that there are "Lies, **** lies, and statistics". With that in mind, lets look a bit more closely at the stats that have been tossed around. First off, it has been quoted at length here (and in correspondence with the DWR) that there is a seasonal average of 732 lake trout harvested annually from Fish Lake. (pg 12 from yr. 1998) This number includes both large AND small macks. The study also prominently notes that there is a bimodal distribution of fish size in the mack population. There is a huge number of small macks and a smaller but representative number of bigger ones. (quoted several places but see fig.5 for SPAWNING distribution) There are very few in the "middle". The study then gives a count estimate of the big macks. It was 1100 in the entire lake. (pg 11) How many of these get harvested? The study determined that an annual harvest of 12% took place. At the time of the study, it was all H&L. That would mean that 132 large lakers would be expected to be harvested annually. Now, the spear guys harvested from 15-22 large lakers in their tournament (I have read umpteen different numbers) Lets also assume that spear guys not related to the tourney also harvest a few more during this time of vulnerability, and say that 30 total TROPHY sized fish were taken in total during the spawn. I am sure that some "pups" were taken too, but they are not part of the "large mack" population and thus are not relevant to the discussion here. 30 fish is 22.7% of what all other anglers harvest of trophy fish in an entire year. (30/132 a much higher percentage than comparing to the 732!) Now can the lake sustain that harvest? Probably, but what would happen if all of the publicity results in larger spearing participation such that the annual spawn spearing harvest goes from 30 to say 100? Now, we have practically doubled the total annual harvest (132+100) to a level that represents 21% of the entire "large mack" population. In 5 years the entire 1100 fish population would be cycled through. This is why I am concerned.

Now, you should rightly say, yeah these fish are harvested but are replaced quickly by the pup macks. I sincerely hope this is the case, but the study points out a reason why this may not smoothly happen. On pg 13, it discusses what the fish eat as they change from invertebrates to piscivory. It appears that macks under 2 lbs ate chubs preferentially, and the bigger macks eat rainbow trout that are stocked. The problem is that now, due to the yellow perch, there are almost no chubs left. This was happening during the run of the study, and has continued to this day. The lakers (both large and small) do not eat yellow perch to any notable degree.(pg 13) If the chubs are gone and the smaller macks have trouble eating planter bows, then it could be harder for the little guys to "make the jump" to large size and could also help to explain why the population of SMALL macks has gone up at Fish Lake. Also, the condition of the small macks is described in the study as poor as well, wheras the condition of the big guys is described as good. A "poor" condition fish would likely struggle to make the jump to large size IMO.

Anyway, that is why I am concerned about this. I wouldn't necessarily mind being proven wrong about this but the above is why I have voiced my concerns to the DWR about spearfishing during the mack spawn. (Well, this and their drive to excessively simplify the regs generally, at the expense of good biology, but that is an issue for another time and place)


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

More e-mail addresses thanks to PBH...

links to RAC and Wildlife Board contact info:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/...ings/rac_members.php

http://wildlife.utah.gov/...tings/wb-members.php

http://wildlife.utah.gov/about/contact.php


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## Flyfish4thrills (Jan 2, 2008)

Talk about crybabies. If we were talking about flyfishing (my favorite type of fishing), I already stated that I would be in favor of greater restrictions. You simply know you have a far better deal going than the average fisherman has, and it makes you mad that it may end.
Sportsmen don't target small fish? I guess it depends on why you are a "sportsman". I for one also target small fish. I could easily go to only trophy lakes every time I fish, but it would get boring (especially since I cannot guarantee a trophy every time or even every year I fish it). Many times I will fish for brookies in small streams. I enjoy their beauty (even at 8 inches) and the beauty of my surroundings. I also fish for grayling. I enjoy trying to trick them into taking my flies. If you have not caught bluegill on a fly, you are missing out on some great fun as well. I guess I like fishing for more than simply getting big fish.
The Landon Meyer argument is laughable. You, like many fisherman, fell for that one hook, line and sinker. Did you buy his book?  I personally know people that he fishes with and have fished with them, and I know where he fishes. I can guarantee that he doesn't catch those fish everytime he fishes. (And when he does catch a trophy, most if not all are RELEASED.) If you put in the same amount of time on the same locations, you would get the same results. I have seen pics of his buddies with similar results. They aren't selling books, however. I digress. If spearfisherman had a type of spear-net that surrounded the fish, and then they released it (and studies showed it to have a minimal mortality rate), I would be completely in favor of their type of fishing.
For those of you that say I am crying, "Not Fair!", then please answer why pitchforks and dipnets are not allowed. Why am I not allowed to use gill nets and electroshocking? I especially would like electroshocking. I could shock as many as I want, pull up a trophy, and let all of the others go. No harm done. :wink: A line must be drawn as to what is fair. When not only the average spearfisherman, but MOST spearfisherman can each KILL a trophy on each fishing outing, that is unfair. I did not see one spearfishman with a trophy and many others with small fish or none. I saw many spear fisherman with many trophies, thus the average spear fisherman can collect them easily in comparison to the average fisherman. If you simply caught and released trophies every time you fished, I don't believe it would be any uproar at all. It is the fact that you must kill to do your fishing, and it is always trophies that you kill at a far greater percentage than the average fisherman, that has caused the uproar. Again, if this was flyfishing or archery hunting, or whatever the type of game collecting/killing, I would be in favor of regulation changes in this type of situation. 
I sure wish they would change the law to allow me to electrofish. :wink: On second thought, I really wouldn't like that. What would be the challenge? It would be like shooting fish in a barrel....or like spearfishing.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

Good post Flyfish4thrills. I have been writing pretty similar stuff to your post the last few days, and I was wondering if anyone else could see the obvious! thank you for your contribution.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Flyfish4thrills, you may very well fish streams that only hold small fish, but you do NOT target the smallest fish in that stream! That is my point. I too enjoy streams that demand a 3 wt rod, knowing that the fish I catch, if any will be small. But I NEVER drop a fly on the water HOPING the fish that rises is the smallest fish in the stream, and neither do you!

Comparing deep breath spearfishing to using pitchforks is inane. If that is the cornerstone of your stance, you have a poor foundation for it! I could easily make a better argument to further restrict bait/lure fishing that what you and others have presented to do the same to spear fishing. There is NO evidence that spearfishing at Fish Lake has had ANY negative impact on the 'quality' and/or quantity. Making more restrictive regulations based on what ifs and perceptions is poor wildlife management.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Catherder said:


> I believe that it was Mark Twain that said that there are "Lies, **** lies, and statistics".
> 
> How many of these get harvested? The study determined that an annual harvest of 12% took place. At the time of the study, it was all H&L. That would mean that 132 large lakers would be expected to be harvested annually. Now, the spear guys harvested from 15-22 large lakers in their tournament (I have read umpteen different numbers) Lets also assume that spear guys not related to the tourney also harvest a few more during this time of vulnerability, and say that 30 total TROPHY sized fish were taken in total during the spawn.


1) Exactly right...some of your "statistics" fit this criteria as well!

2) The study did include all harvest...not just H&L. Spearfishing has been a practice at Fish Lake for many years included the survey years of the study.

Also, the spear guys harvested trophy splake as well as lake trout...your "statistics" only took into account that what was harvested were trophy lake trout when, in fact, many of the fish were splake. Also, the 1100 number in the report only included lake trout. If you were to add in the trophy brown trout and trophy splake from the lake the 1100 number would rise significantly.

3) Although the number of small lake trout has risen, the number of large lake trout has remained stable. In other words, the same number of lake trout are making the jump...and the overall population of lake trout has increased. Also, what you conveniently fail to mention is that splake do tend to use perch as a forage fish as do brown trout...


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I think those of you who are up in arms over the harvest by spearfishermen are up in arms over the wrong thing--instead of being mad at what was harvested, be mad at what could potentially be harvested. With the ability of these spearfishermen to fish during the spawn when these large lake trout are more susceptible to spearfishermen, the possibility is that the population could be severely impacted (even though it hasn't yet).


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

1. Re: "The study did include all harvest...not just H&L. Spearfishing has been a practice at Fish Lake for many years included the survey years of the study"

Not so, spearfishing was not legal during the spawn during the study period.

2. RE: "Also, the 1100 number in the report only included lake trout. If you were to add in the trophy brown trout and trophy splake from the lake the 1100 number would rise significantly." 

It is well that there are trophy splake and browns present as well, but this discussion centers on lake trout in the spawn, as does the quoted study number. Splake can simply be replaced by backing up the hatchery truck, browns are fairly rare, but more notably do not seem to be vulnerable to be harvested easily by spearfishers or others at this time.

3. Re: "what you conveniently fail to mention is that splake do tend to use perch as a forage fish as do brown trout..." 

I didn't conveniently forget anything. Again, we are talking about lake trout. I am reassured that Fish lake is a nice splake and brown lake esp. if the lakers decline to a point not to be interesting anymore. I would also point out that the brown numbers are not huge there, and I doubt very many people head to Fish lake to catch a brown. 

4. RE: "Although the number of small lake trout has risen, the number of large lake trout has remained stable." "the same number of lake trout are making the jump." 

I actually hope you are right about that. One thing that may also need to be taken into account however, is the almost fanatical adherence to C&R seen in the anglers most likely to catch lake trout. A visit to BFT can see this "ethic" in action. While hard to quantify, I get the impression that H&L harvest of the big fish has probably gone down a fair bit in the last 10 years. If so, that would easily explain the stable numbers, as a lake trout can live for decades.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

"instead of being mad at what was harvested, be mad at what could potentially be harvested. With the ability of these spearfishermen to fish during the spawn when these large lake trout are more susceptible to spearfishermen, the possibility is that the population could be severely impacted (even though it hasn't yet)."

Isn't that what I was saying in my original post? I then referred to the best study we have available to back it up.


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

I hate the misconseption that we as spearfishermen always get trophy fish... This is not the case. Several of my friends went and dove Flaming Gorge this weekend. The biggiest fish they speared was a 6 pound lake trout. Not hardly a trophy.... They dove two days straight with not even a glimps of a huge fish... So please stop saying we always get huge trophy fish. Because we don't 

There also seams to be the argument that " What about this or what if" You keep assuming that this sport is huge. It is not. We are a very very very small number... I would say that in the Utah area. There might be 60 spearfishermen. Of that not all of them even dive cold water or would be interested in diving fish lake. 

Stop with all the inflated numbers.... Once again the number of Splake/ Lake Trout taken out of fish lake during the tournament weekend was 13 Not 15-22 not 30 not anything other then 13. Which by the way there were 15 competitors. So not everyone gets a trophy.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Catherder said:


> 1. Re: "The study did include all harvest...not just H&L. Spearfishing has been a practice at Fish Lake for many years included the survey years of the study"
> 
> Not so, spearfishing was not legal during the spawn during the study period.
> 
> ...


1) The report you quoted talked about harvest throughout the year...not just during the spawn. So, all of the harvest of lake trout by spearfishermen outside of the spawn was included in the report...

2) Yes, it does center on lake trout during the spawn...but the harvest by these guys was not predominantly lake trout...and the numbers you used acted as if all the fish harvested were lake trout. Also, trophy splake take just as long to grow as do trophy lake trout...your theory that we simply can replace them with a hatchery truck is not very applicable. By saying this, you are implying that these guys somehow hurt the reproduction and recruitment of lake trout. How? The number of lake trout in the lake is self-sustaining but the harvest of <13 fish is hardly going to impact the fishery's self-sustaining status. Because splake and brown trout spawn in the fall and because both seem to congregate fairly heavily, wouldn't they be just as susceptible to spearfishing at this time as lake trout?

3) Your original post made it clear that you thought these guys were putting a dent into the population of trophy fish...I disagree. The 13 harvested hardly made an impact especially since not all of those were lake trout...I would still venture to say that more trophy lake trout have been harvested by H&L fishermen by a long shot over what spear fishermen have harvested.

4) The fanatical adherence to C&R among lake trout fishermen is your perception...whether true or not is a different story.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

scubadown16 said:


> I hate the misconseption that we as spearfishermen always get trophy fish... This is not the case. Several of my friends went and dove Flaming Gorge this weekend. The biggiest fish they speared was a 6 pound lake trout. Not hardly a trophy.... They dove two days straight with not even a glimps of a huge fish... So please stop saying we always get huge trophy fish. Because we don't
> 
> There also seams to be the argument that " What about this or what if" You keep assuming that this sport is huge. It is not. We are a very very very small number... I would say that in the Utah area. There might be 60 spearfishermen. Of that not all of them even dive cold water or would be interested in diving fish lake.
> 
> Stop with all the inflated numbers.... Once again the number of Splake/ Lake Trout taken out of fish lake during the tournament weekend was 13 Not 15-22 not 30 not anything other then 13. Which by the way there were 15 competitors. So not everyone gets a trophy.


I feel really badly that some spearhunters went out for two days and did not get the fish of a lifetime out of Flaming gorge! I also feel badly that only 13 out of 15 spearhunters got a trophy fish at fish lake!

Are you serious!?


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## Nueces (Jul 22, 2008)

I propose legislation for everyone to smile! :mrgreen:


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

First, W&B;

1. Re: "The report you quoted talked about harvest throughout the year...not just during the spawn. So, all of the harvest of lake trout by spearfishermen outside of the spawn was included in the report..."

Yes and I made it quite clear that the harvest amount quoted was for the entire year. However, what is a NEW parameter is harvest by spearfishing DURING THE SPAWN, which did not take place in 1998 and DOES represent a new harvest parameter compared to to the study period, whether the number is 13, 15, 22 or 30. (please remember that the 30 came from an estimate of fish taken by spearing during the spawn, both during and after the tournament. If it is a little too high, I apologize to the spear guys.

2. RE: 'trophy splake take just as long to grow as do trophy lake trout...your theory that we simply can replace them with a hatchery truck is not very applicable."

Are you sure about that? Both you and I have pointed out that splake forage on perch, which lakers do not. Since perch are super-abundant at Fish lake, it would seem reasonable that splake growth would be more uniform. They may eventually need to switch over to rainbows though, once they get a certain size, so it still may not be "easy" to get them to trophy size. But no matter. The discussion STILL is about spawning lake trout, not splake.

3. RE:"you are implying that these guys somehow hurt the reproduction and recruitment of lake trout. "

Am I? Even the small, non "trophy" lakers that don't "make the jump" of a certain age can reproduce, so reproduction and recruitment actually have little to do with the discussion. What is the concern is the HARVEST of trophy fish and the stability of trophy fish numbers.

4. RE:"Your original post made it clear that you thought these guys were putting a dent into the population of trophy fish...I disagree."

This is MY exact quote "Now can the lake sustain that harvest? Probably,"
How can even you possibly justify the above quote when this is what I said. (The quote referred to the estimate of 30 speared spawning macks)
I then said this: Now can the lake sustain that harvest? Probably, but what would happen if all of the publicity results in larger spearing participation such that the annual spawn spearing harvest goes from 30 to say 100? Now, we have practically doubled the total annual harvest (132+100) to a level that represents 21% of the entire "large mack" population.

I believe that is VERY similar to what you said on this very thread.

I've had enough hair splitting.


Scubadown,
The numbers I used were pulled from the various posts here, on your site and elsewhere. There have been a bunch thrown around. I then added an estimate of a few more for spearfishing done outside of your tournament, but during the spawn. If it is too high, I apologize, but I don't think the total was out of the ballpark.

You also said this. "You keep assuming that this sport is huge. It is not. We are a very very very small number... I would say that in the Utah area. There might be 60 spearfishermen. Of that not all of them even dive cold water or would be interested in diving fish lake."

If this is true, then you guys probably have little to worry about. What I and others are concerned about is a significant increase in trophy harvest. You do have to admit that 13 trophies out of 15 in a short tournament is spectacular for macks. Larger tournaments with similar results to your last one might be bad publicity, and validate the "what if" numbers presented. I do hope though that we can get regs worked out that do allow peaceful co-existence and protection of our resources. 
tight lines er, sharp blades?


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## flydaddy834 (Sep 11, 2007)

wasnt you mr scuba that said this sport is bigger than we all know and you provided some links to show all the big trophy fish you do kill... now you say it aint all that big. which one is it. and as far as smiling i would as soon as someone sees what has happend as wrong, not professional, not classy, not in any way done right and puts the breaks on this now. i am sorry but i dont think spearos have it upstairs to realize they are not only impacting waters with what they do but utah waters... kinda like shooting a fish in a barrel as one gent put. where is the sport in that. maybe in mexico where lots of stuff is legal and heard of but not at fish lake or any other trophy water in utah or anywhere else for that matter... now about smiling how bout them cowboys


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

I would love to see a quote of where I said it is bigger then you think??? But, your intitled to your opionon even if it is mis-conseaved.... 

For the gentleman named Pez-Galo... I am sure your sorrow is true. I'll be sure to pass along my condolances to those who were un-able to full fill their goal. 

I can see that this thread is headed down a road already traveled. So I'll leave you all with this.

" ONE CAN ONLY WISH TO BE GRANTED THE WISH OF A ROSE(laketrout),WITHOUT BEING GRANTED THE PAIN FROM ITS THORN(all fishermen who take)." 

James Hardesty


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## flydaddy834 (Sep 11, 2007)

its just kinda cave manish if thats even a word. can i say that. and the second thread that got locked down had 3 links for web sites which stated this is bigger than we know. wish we can open back up just to look. maybe moderator will do such honor just to prove you wrong for once. and for the record its not a sport. its more of a sport to swim under the water than it is to spear a fish. whats next wooly mamouth's


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

So, what's wrong with it being cavemanish? Is it any more primitive than taking a deer with archery tackle? *Get over it!* A few fish died. B.F.D. There's no proof that fish caught by hook and line don't die in numbers just as great as those killed by the spearfishermen.

Fishrmn


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## flydaddy834 (Sep 11, 2007)

last i checked this is a place where you can voice your opinion. if you dont like it dont click on this thread. did someone with a spear hold you at spear point and make you read it. 

i am going to have so many friends on here. but really i must be doing something right to make you read my post. thanks and i am done now with this topic. as you can see i have been a member on here since this site first started but i dont post much cause somethings just out right erk me... big fan of the site though and a even bigger fan of those who read my post and dont like it.


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

Hey Flydaddy,
I appreciate your words... I do think everyone should have an oppinion even yours.... Even if it is different then mine,... But please look at some facts when forming your oppinion...Not just emotion... You don't have to agree with what I choose as a sport... You might not call it a sport at all. How ever I think its a bit much to call what we do cavemanish...Its not like we are standing on the shoreline chucking a spear into the water at fish... It requires a great deal of skill to hold your breath and entice a fish to come close enough to shot it... If being easy was the case. Well everyone who did it would always get their limit... And that is just not the case.

I see a lot of passion on here for releasing fish... I think thats great... But because others differ in there oppinion on weather or not to take or release fish they are put down... Putting them down is childish and stupid. Especially when they take fish legally..... 

James Hardesty


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## rapalahunter (Oct 13, 2007)

scubadown16 said:


> You might not call it a sport at all. How ever I think its a bit much to call what we do cavemanish...Its not like we are standing on the shoreline chucking a spear into the water at fish.


I grew up in Hawaii and have speared my share of fish. I've also stood on the shoreline and chucked a spear at them. It's a hell of a lot harder to stand on the shore and chuck a spear than to hold your breath and shoot em' with the 3-prong. LOL!


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Wow, this stuff is still going on? It sure is entertaining when kids get ahold of their parents accounts. JUST DON'T LET EM CATCH YOU GUYS!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Wow, this stuff is still going on? It sure is entertaining when kids get ahold of their parents accounts. JUST DON'T LET EM CATCH YOU GUYS!


 *\-\*


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

scubadown16 said:


> Hey Flydaddy,
> I appreciate your words... I do think everyone should have an oppinion even yours.... Even if it is different then mine,... But please look at some facts when forming your oppinion...Not just emotion... You don't have to agree with what I choose as a sport... You might not call it a sport at all. How ever I think its a bit much to call what we do cavemanish...Its not like we are standing on the shoreline chucking a spear into the water at fish... It requires a great deal of skill to hold your breath and entice a fish to come close enough to shot it... If being easy was the case. Well everyone who did it would always get their limit... And that is just not the case.
> 
> I see a lot of passion on here for releasing fish... I think thats great... But because others differ in there oppinion on weather or not to take or release fish they are put down... Putting them down is childish and stupid. Especially when they take fish legally.....
> ...


James,

What you are calling emotions might better be termed as ETHICS. Ethics are a part of our sport.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Pez Gallo said:


> What you are calling emotions might better be termed as ETHICS. Ethics are a part of our sport.


You can teach ETHICS but it rarely works when you try and ENFORCE ethics.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Pez Gallo said:


> scubadown16 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Flydaddy,
> ...


You are correct, no matter how arrogant it comes across, but ethics are interpreted and acted out per capita. It's not a blanket scenario and attempting to force your ethics on someone will only end up badly. What makes you think he is not ethical? Serious question.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

All arguing aside - I still cannot see what is unethical about spearfishing, nor do I see a compelling reason to ban it. I simply do not understand the desire to shut it down. I love to fish. I fly fish. I spin fish. I bait fish. I've fished for spawners. I mostly catch and release. But I will kill, keep and eat fish on occassion. I see spearfishing as no threat to what I do, nor an impact to the resources that we enjoy in Utah. There is no management reason to ban it. There is no legal reason. There is no biological reason. And "its not fair they get to spear big fish when I can't catch big fish" doesn't cut it. Jealousy is not basis for fish hunting/fishing management.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> All arguing aside - *I still cannot see what is unethical about spearfishing,* nor do I see a compelling reason to ban it. I simply do not understand the desire to shut it down. I love to fish. I fly fish. I spin fish. I bait fish. I've fished for spawners. I mostly catch and release. But I will kill, keep and eat fish on occassion. I see spearfishing as no threat to what I do, nor an impact to the resources that we enjoy in Utah. There is no management reason to ban it. There is no legal reason. There is no biological reason. And "its not fair they get to spear big fish when I can't catch big fish" doesn't cut it. Jealousy is not basis for fish hunting/fishing management.


Me too GaryFish.....I just don't get it... :?


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## flydaddy834 (Sep 11, 2007)

i do think its more of a sport to throw a spear and kill a fish cause that will require skill. shooting a gun basically at a fish that you know is close enough( other wise you wouldnt take the shot) its a lot more logical to throw a spear and hope the start line right so you can hit one. fishing has SOME to do with that also. 

as far as seeing nothing wrong i will REPEAT KILLING FISH PRESPAWN OR POST SPAWN IS DAMMAGING WHY WAIT TILL SOMETHING IS WRONG SO YOU CAN CALL IT WHAT IT IS, WHY NOT TRY TO PREVENT THE PROBLEM. MAYBE MORE SHOULD THINK OF THIS AND WE WOULDNT HAVE GLOBAL WARMING AND THINGS AS SUCH. THATS WHAT WRONG, IS THAT PEOPLE CHOOSE TO TAKE CHANCES WITH THE WORLD WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT WHATS GOING TO BE LEFT. THATS WHAT WRONG... SPAWNING FISH.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

SPAWNING FISH. :shock: :shock: 

Oh........

So ?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I had no idea spawning fish cause global warming! :shock:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I had no idea spawning fish cause global warming! :shock:


_Speared spawning fish_ have been known to cause global warming, cancer in mice and lackanookie in humans.....it's a bad disease !! -)O(- -)O(-


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Leemun said:


> If I were to draft a bill and bring this to the legislature or a proposed reg for DWR, what specifically would it need to say?


It would need to say that the regulation needs to be changed back to the way it was for the previous 25 years!!

Shoot an email to the RAC members. Let them know that this new rules simplification is not right. Let them know that spearfishing at Fish Lake during the month of October was against the law for many years, and for a very good reason -- and "rules simplification" was a very poor reason for changing that regulation.

It's the RAC that needs to hear this -- they are the people that will get this fixed. You could copy your letters to the Wildlife Board as well. Maybe include Roger Wilson and Walt Donaldson as well.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

.45 said:


> _Speared spawning fish_ have been known to cause global warming, cancer in mice and *lackanookie* in humans.....it's a bad disease !! -)O(- -)O(-


That is unacceptable! Where do I sign up to get this stopped? :evil:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Donna's in Wells ?

Ha ha....wear a wet suit !!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

The bill should have lots of unnecessary items in it such as giving me $50,000 a year to research into a little more. Probably take another $100,000 so I can go party it up with AIG. Hell how about another 50 g's just for good measure. :wink: :lol: 

In all seriousness I don't mind the spearfishing, but I don't think they should be allowed to do it during the spawn, but at the same time if they are in open water it isn't much different than hunting elk during the rut. Now I am contradicting myself, I guess it is time to shut up now. :mrgreen:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

jahan said:


> The bill should have lots of unnecessary items in it such as giving me $50,000 a year to research into a little more. Probably take another $100,000 so I can go party it up with AIG. Hell how about another 50 g's just for good measure. :wink: :lol:
> 
> In all seriousness I don't mind the spearfishing, but I don't think they should be allowed to do it during the spawn, but at the same time if they are in open water it isn't much different than hunting elk during the rut. Now I am contradicting myself, *I guess it is time to shut up now*. :mrgreen:


I didn't know you could read my mind. :wink: :mrgreen:


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> ...nor do I see a compelling reason to ban it.


+1

I commend a few of the concerns that have been voiced. I've seen a few posts on the wary of spearfishing side which were well thought out and intelligently presented. Catherter, Wyo, and PBH have raised some points I'm interested in knowing more about.

Honestly, the bulk of the posts against spear fishing have been an embarassment to anyone who values making informed decisions. I imagine that people argued with the same amount of conviction that the Earth was flat back in the days of Columbus. They were people who had never sailed around the world, but were willing to argue to no end about the consequences of trying to do so. Did they have conviction? Sure. Did they all look like asses in light of the facts? Yes.

I've seen less ignorance in PETA literature than I have from many of the comments in this thread. Those who have attempted to discuss the subject without knowing a single thing about the fishery, mackinaw biology, or the sport of spear fishing have simply damaged their own personal credibility for this and all other subject matter. That's been a value add for me from this thread. The men have been separated from the boys.



.45 said:


> ...cancer in mice and lackanookie in humans


I thought that was exposure to fiber/cell sites during long 2-3 hour test cycles!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

threshershark said:


> .45 said:
> 
> 
> > ...cancer in mice and lackanookie in humans
> ...


*HELP ME NOW!!* :shock:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> *HELP ME NOW!!* :shock:


I believe jahan might have an emoticon to help you with that issue.. :shock: :lol:


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

threshershark said:


> Catherter, Wyo, and PBH have raised some points I'm interested in knowing more about.


What would you like to know more about? I'd certainly try to clear up any questions you might have on this particular situation -- at least from what I know. I'll leave the drama to the rest of the crew.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Pez Gallo said:
> 
> 
> > scubadown16 said:
> ...


first off, I don't believe that using a speargun to hunt fish is very sporting, Ever hear of the term "shooting fish in barrel"
Second, it is not ethical or fair for a small group of people who spearhunt to be allowed to take more than their fair individual share of a a resource's trophy animals

For those who say that ethics cannot be part of laws, you may need to evaluate your assessment again. Take a look at your regulations. Why is snagging not permitted to take gamefish in Utah and just about every other state? Why is chumming not allowed? The answer is that these are actions that have been deemed "unsporting" among other reasons.


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

snagging is not allowed not because its un-ethical. I am sure that when the DNR decided to NOT allow snagging it was because of hard factual basis and not because someone feels its un-ethical... Something being Ethical or not is of personal choice not fact... You feel its shooting fish in a barrel... Well your mistaken in your thought... But your intitled to your opinion... Chumming is against the law because it introduces matter into an ecosystem that is not suppose to be there. Which inturn can cause more harm and put a strain on that ecosystem. Not because its "Un-ethical". 

Another thing... You say how is it fair a small group be allowed to take more then their fair share of trophy fish. What is our fair share??? What is a trophy??? These are subjective feelings... Everyone has the same oppertunities I do to harvest the same number of fish... Now if you choose not to because you feel its " Shooting fish in Barrel" Well. Thats your own **** fault... Not the fault of the spearfishing communittee. Its once again an emotional response to something that is legal and a "THATS NOT FAIR" statement... Life is not always going to be fair... You sometimes have to except that.. But to cry and pout about it. Makes it only worse... Don't hate instead I invite you to participate... Hell I'll even lend you some equipment and show you some tecnics to help your chances of landing a fish... Might not be a trophy but eventually with hard work I am sure you can land what you feel is a trophy... To me a trophy is landing a fish I have never landed before. May it be big or small. 



James


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)




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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Heed! Spear! NEEEEW!

If ya can, luggin' that gargantuan cranium about.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So as I am following here, there is concern that harvest of spawning lake trout will have a detrimental impact on the population. I see this two ways:

Harvest does have an impact - therefore, ANY harvest has the same impact. A fish harvested with a spear is no different than a fish harvested with hook and line. Therefore, if harvest of spawning fish is the issue and there is biological evidence to that effect - the ALL harvest should be disallowed during the spawn. (Like the Strawberrry tribs being closed during the spawn - it happens when it is needed)

Harvest does not have an impact - If harvest of spawning fish does not significantly impact the fishery, then method of harvest - spear vs. hook and line - is irrelovent. 

Bottom line - there is no real reason to ban spear fishing, other than you might think it yucky. If harvest of spawning fish is your issue - then ALL harvest should be the issue - not just spearfishing.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

> it is not ethical or fair for a small group of people who spearhunt to be allowed to take more than their fair individual share of a a resource's trophy animals


The fair share argument. I have to respectfully disagree with this one - with reasoning very similar to my above post. A Fair Individual Share is whatever the limit on the fish is. Method of harvest is irrelovent - as long as those who harvest the fish have the same bag limits whether using spears or hooks and lines. I don't see how it is unfair when all people harvesting fish have the same daily bag limits and harvest restrictions.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> So as I am following here, there is concern that harvest of spawning lake trout will have a detrimental impact on the population. I see this two ways:
> 
> Harvest does have an impact - therefore, ANY harvest has the same impact. A fish harvested with a spear is no different than a fish harvested with hook and line. *Therefore, if harvest of spawning fish is the issue and there is biological evidence to that effect - the ALL harvest should be disallowed during the spawn. (Like the Strawberrry tribs being closed during the spawn - it happens when it is needed)*
> 
> ...


Agreed. I am going to call th e DWR, legislators, lobbyists and the governor, demanding that fish lake be closed to _fishing_ from Sept. 1st through Nov.30th

Thanks for the inspiration Gary.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Harvest does have an impact - therefore, ANY harvest has the same impact. A fish harvested with a spear is no different than a fish harvested with hook and line.


That's correct. However, you must look at the percentage of harvest that occured in 1 day by spearfishermen vs. the percentage of harvest over the course of a year by hook and line anglers. If this percentage shows a large discrepancy, then action should be taken.

Again, the season dates for spearfishing at Fish Lake (May - Sep) were in place for many, many years. They were set this way for a very specific purpose (to protect spawning lake trout from spearfishing harvest). Why was this regulation changed? Does the reason for the change justify the end results?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Agreed. I am going to call th e DWR, legislators, lobbyists and the governor, demanding that fish lake be closed to _fishing_ from Sept. 1st through Nov.30th
> 
> Thanks for the inspiration Gary.


Anglers should take a hard look at this. It just might be the best option. Although, you wouldn't need to close the lake to fishing -- just close it to harvesting lake trout. There would be no reason to close it to fishing and harvesting other species. You see this type of regulation all the time in other parts of the country (and Canada).

but, with the DWR in it's "rules simplification" mindset, I doubt we'll get very far with this. That would just be too complicated for the average Joe angler to comprehend.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

PBH said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. I am going to call th e DWR, legislators, lobbyists and the governor, demanding that fish lake be closed to _fishing_ from Sept. 1st through Nov.30th
> ...


No, I think it should be closed to all fishing. Unlike spear fishing, it's impossible to target only certain species with a hook and line(Saying otherwise makes one a liar and nobody wants to be labeled a liar.). Maybe they should just close it to H&L fishing and continue to let spear fishers do their thing, except for harvesting lake trout, of course.


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Deep water mack fishing is rough on the fish, the mortality is a lot higher than when they are caught out of shallow areas. To protect the fish, I propose that it be illegal to have any lure below 18 feet deep from May-September. This will help ensure that H&L anglers aren't killing more than a fair share due to deep water C&R mortality.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

threshershark said:


> Deep water mack fishing is rough on the fish, the mortality is a lot higher than when they are caught out of shallow areas. To protect the fish, I propose that it be illegal to have any lure below 18 feet deep from May-September. This will help ensure that H&L anglers aren't killing more than a fair share due to deep water C&R mortality.


That has MORE validity than banning spearfishing during spawning season. Good idea!


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

threshershark said:


> Deep water mack fishing is rough on the fish, the mortality is a lot higher than when they are caught out of shallow areas. To protect the fish, I propose that it be illegal to have any lure below 18 feet deep from May-September. This will help ensure that H&L anglers aren't killing more than a fair share due to deep water C&R mortality.


I propose a meeting tonight @ 8pm to discuss a proposal to do away with fishing at fish lake. Please submit ideas to threshershark ASAP so we can discuss them before hand and come up with a clear plan of action.


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## Bucks&Bulls (Nov 29, 2007)

I went ice fishin at the Gorge one night last winter, and between me and my buddies, we landed 42 macks. We only kept 40 of 'em though.


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## Bucks&Bulls (Nov 29, 2007)

You know, reading through this thread, you really have to wonder what the average age is of everybody that posted their whiney remarks. I'm going to go with 14... oh heck, maybe 15.


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## Bucks&Bulls (Nov 29, 2007)

QUOTE~ "You get a group of people that come here and take more.. in one day than most people..." -El Sombrero

Just a word of caution to El Sombrero, judging by your screen name, you may want to be careful how you say that. I think we could open a whole new can 'o worms with that one.


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## El Sombrero (Jan 29, 2008)

Bucks&Bulls said:


> QUOTE~ "You get a group of people that come here and take more.. in one day than most people..." -El Sombrero
> 
> Just a word of caution to El Sombrero, judging by your screen name, you may want to be careful how you say that. I think we could open a whole new can 'o worms with that one.


*Well great, does UWN condone racism now?

You do make a good point though.............................*


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

> Just a word of caution to El Sombrero, judging by your screen name, you may want to be careful how you say that. I think we could open a whole new can 'o worms with that one.


Man, who had to dig this crap thread up again ?? :? /**|**\ /**|**\

Forget it El Sombrero, not all of us feel that way..


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## flydaddy834 (Sep 11, 2007)

kick that guy out of here... but dont lock this thread down. let the big wigs see all this.


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## fishmanjustfish (Oct 29, 2007)

These are the state representatives to EMAIL NOW:

Representative Michael Noel, Wayne County.
Drop him a quick note at:
[email protected]

Represtentative Kay McIff, Sevier County.
Drop him a quick note at:
[email protected]

Deleted, thanks THH.

These TWO men can change things and they want and value your opinion! Please, Fishlake is begging YOU for help so take action. I'll be sending them some the pics and responses about feeding these valuable state resources/trophies to dogs!

We CaN change things and this is how.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

That looks like 2 dudes to me.


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

so is the problem here that they are non residents ? if that youre issue I hope you have never fished in another state......the speerfishers didnt do anything that was aginst the regs and they only killed 13 macks big deal how many macks do line fisheman kill a year at fish lake 700 that that could have grown to a large size probably more .Iin alaska I fish for prespawn salmon most pepole do alaska fish and game knows how to control the harvest and can make reg changes in days. I would say regulate the taking of macks like kings in alaska on the keani river you buy mack/king stamps and you are only allowed to keep 2 kings/macks per year 1 per day 2 total per year per body of water. if you catch and realease fish you will kill more macks than the speerfishermen they dont play poke and realease. I fish fishlake every year and have only caught 1 mack it didnt fight much for its size. I consider a trophy any fish that puts up a good fight and would say my best trophy in utah was a 23inch wiper I caught at willard 2 years ago from my kayak . it fought 10times harder than my mack at fish lake .I welcome nonresidents to utah to fish and hunt because I want to fish/hunt other states also.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> All arguing aside - I still cannot see what is unethical about spearfishing, nor do I see a compelling reason to ban it. I simply do not understand the desire to shut it down. I love to fish. I fly fish. I spin fish. I bait fish. I've fished for spawners. I mostly catch and release. But I will kill, keep and eat fish on occassion. I see spearfishing as no threat to what I do, nor an impact to the resources that we enjoy in Utah. There is no management reason to ban it. There is no legal reason. There is no biological reason. And "its not fair they get to spear big fish when I can't catch big fish" doesn't cut it. Jealousy is not basis for fish hunting/fishing management.


Agreed. :wink: 
Christopher30 has caught more trophy fish out of FL in the last year by HIMSELF than these guys(spearfishers) speared in their entire tournament. I don't see the problem with spearfishing at all. The unfair argument is horse SH&#. I know several people who could kill a trophy laker or splake EVERY TIME they fish FL. All of these guys crying unfair probably can't or have never caught them that big and that is their beef.
Good luck Scubadown16(?) and crew. Hopefully something will work out in your benefit. 8)


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

> Christopher30 has *caught* more trophy fish out of FL in the last year by HIMSELF than these guys(spearfishers) speared in their entire tournament.


I believe the term should read 'caught and released'.....Christopher30 and I totally disagree on this spearfishing issue, but, lets at least _try _to keep the facts in line...


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

.45 said:


> > Christopher30 has *caught* more trophy fish out of FL in the last year by HIMSELF than these guys(spearfishers) speared in their entire tournament.
> 
> 
> I believe the term should read 'caught and released'.....Christopher30 and I totally disagree on this spearfishing issue, but, lets at least _try _to keep the facts in line...


Sorry, caught and released. I was not arguing any facts other than someone said H&L anglers don't catch as many as these guys spear. I meant that Chris alone has caught more than they speared all season. 8)


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

.45 said:


> > Christopher30 has *caught* more trophy fish out of FL in the last year by HIMSELF than these guys(spearfishers) speared in their entire tournament.
> 
> 
> I believe the term should read 'caught and released'.....Christopher30 and I totally disagree on this spearfishing issue, but, lets at least _try _to keep the facts in line...


so he most likely killed 3 macks last year that sunk to the bottom after being released.thats three time more than each spearfisher killed .


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## Jacksonman (Jan 16, 2008)

I have the opposite opinion of Brody, but we are allowed to disagree on an issue without hurting each other's feelings I hope.  

The arguements comparing salmon fishing in alaska to spearfishing in Fish Lake are without merit. Salmon fishing in alasks is highly regulated and anticipated every year. Spearfishing in Fish Lake is a relatively new phenomena that the state hasn't really anticipated or prepared for until now. 13 trophy fish every year is probably not a big deal but 13 trophy fish (and I thought it was closer to 22) in two days is. If spearfishing were to increase in popularity, trophy fish in Utah would be in trouble. 

And I am one of those who is yet to catch a trophy out of fish lake but I have also been a struggling student who just graduated law school and who may finally make enough money to get the gear and have the time to really start trying. Just because I haven't caught one yet doesn't mean I shouldn't try to protect my future interest along with every one else?

And I too enjoy fishing other states, but I did say fishing. Spearfishing is hunting and selectively taking one states trophy at a much higher efficiency. A good spearfishermen seems to land several trophies a year. A good fishermen seems to get several over a lifetime. I would not expect sympathy from anglers from another state if I planned a tournament in their state and used some questionable but legal technique to slaughter a large amount of trophies (such as snagging fish during a spawn). I don't think Colorado would be too happy if we planned a huge spearfishing tournament in their trophy waters and slaughtered trophy macks and I wouldn't blame them and I don't think they would appreciate the slaughter if we were snagging instead of spearfishing either. I love fishing Jackson Lake in Wyoming but they close down that lake for the spawn -the spearfishermen may be forcing Utah to do the same to Fish Lake because of the unethical taking advantage of a "legal" activity.

And Chris has caught several trophies from Fish Lake and I admire him for it. But he has also put in numerous hours (years) learning how to do so and his efforts contribute to the local economy. He has also let many trophies go. The spearfishermen came to fish lake, most of them not having spent more than a few days on the lake and many of them KILLED not one, but two trophies in just two days. Their amaters were able to "outfish" one of our best fishermen, contributing only a fraction of what in-state fishermen do for that lake.

Although legal, the state may not have had sufficient foresight to anticipate such a happening and thus regulate it apropriately. States generally don't regulate until there is a need or some freedom is being abused and then it takes several years to pass legislation.

Again, I believe fishing is a sport which requires tricking a fish into biting something with a hook - you make the fish react to you, and you have the choice of releasing most of the time. Spearfishing is hunting, where you stock he largest fish you can find and shoot it and there is no option of release. I would call for legislation that treats spearfishing like hunting - a tag system where you can shot one trophy per amount of time, and if you are out of state, it would cost much much more. When you spearfish, you cannot measure a fish and you cann;t release a fish and it is much harder to identify a fish before shooting at it - spearfishing is NOT fishing; it is HUNTING!!

Just because you do have a different definition of what a trophy is doesn't mean you should knock someone else's. A fight of a fish is one way, but size is another, and so is coloration or location or rarity of the species. Mack fishing is only offered one place in southern utah and should be protected. 

I am not calling for a ban to spearfishing, but it should not be treated as fishing in it's regulation. If a magic lure came out that improved the catch rate of trophy mcks about 100X, I too would call for some sort of increased regulation on trophy's, but at least they would have the option of releasing the fish. 

The spearfishing massacre was not jut one thing that upset people but several - out of staters, amount of fish, size of fish, FIsh Lake, spawning time, the lack of undertsanding by many of the spearfishermen, etc. I don't blame the guys for spearfishing at Fish Lake, as it is legal, but I do feel the regulations should be changed to prevent the reoccurance of what I saw. They can kill all the fish they want that easily reproduce and are found throughout the state, but killing older fish that are rare in the state needs to be regulated. And we do not know the long-term affects of killing trophy macks at Fish Lake so most opinions are just speculatory. 

Bottom-line, I believe in our system of gov't and people who feel that want happened is wrong should unite and try to influence the politics that govern fish lake. I for one am about preventing last years two day massacre from turning into something more serious.


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## freepunk (Sep 17, 2007)

^^^Well thought out post but I am going to have to disagree on a few things.

*3 of those fish taken at the tournament were Macs. The rest were Splake. 22 Macs did not get taken out of the lake that weekend (by spearfisherman anyway).*

And anyone who says spearfishing is easy has never gone into 45 degree water, swam down 30-60 feet, spent 30 seconds or more on the bottom all while holding your breath. THIS IS NOT EASY. Yes you can spear on scuba at fishlake but the majority of the divers at the tournament are all breath hold divers and the bigger trout are very weary of bubbles. They have been doing this for years and have spent a lot of time progressing their skills much like a H&L guy would do to target a specific fish.

I believe that most of the people are acting out of their gut feeling when they see all those trophy fish speared in one outing. I am not against limitations if it is for the greater good of the resource. But anyone who says that the few fish that were speared last year is more damaging to the lake then ALL of the macs taken out by H&L should really stop and think. We CANNOT by law spearfish all year at Fishlake. Right now we get June 2nd through November 30th. We dont buy half a fishing license but we only get to spear half a year. How many of these trophy fish were pulled out of the ice last winter? Spawn or not the fish are still getting caught and pressured by H&L year long, not spearos.


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## freepunk (Sep 17, 2007)

Jacksonman said:


> Bottom-line, I believe in our system of gov't and people who feel that want happened is wrong should unite and try to influence the politics that govern fish lake. I for one am about preventing last years two day massacre from turning into something more serious.


I agree and we have united. See you at the RAC meetings.


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Jacksonman said:


> I have the opposite opinion of Brody, but we are allowed to disagree on an issue without hurting each other's feelings I hope.
> 
> The arguements comparing salmon fishing in alaska to spearfishing in Fish Lake are without merit. Salmon fishing in alasks is highly regulated and anticipated every year. Spearfishing in Fish Lake is a relatively new phenomena that the state hasn't really anticipated or prepared for until now. 13 trophy fish every year is probably not a big deal but 13 trophy fish (and I thought it was closer to 22) in two days is. If spearfishing were to increase in popularity, trophy fish in Utah would be in trouble. // AND MY POINT WAS TO REGULATE WITH A STAMP SYSTEM AND A 2 TROPHY FISH LIMIT PER YEAR PER BODY OF WATER :x
> 
> ...


THATS GREAT ANOTHER LAWYER TRYING TO PASS MORE LAWS ON BEHALF OF WHAT HE/SHE THINKS IS GOING TO BENIFIT HIM/HER THE MOST :evil: ARE SYSTEM OF GOVERMENT SUCKS MABEY THEY CAN TAX US MORE TO BAIL US OUT OF THEIR SPENDING HABITS.


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## Jacksonman (Jan 16, 2008)

Don't worry - I am going into real estate and have no intention of playing politics. But one thing law school has taught me is how uneducated and ignorant I was towards the political processes which we enjoy here in the US. I believe that, in general, the best interests of the majorities should be protected against the interests of the minorities, especially when there is a large majority. But most of the time, the minority express their views louder and longer (thanks to the generally liberal media and due to the fact that they are the ones usually uniting to fight for some right), or the majority never unite to truly become a majority. The posting of those pictures from last year's massacre served as the trigger to unite the majority.

I feel I am reasonable in my views in that I am not calling for the end to spearfishing but for reasonable regulations of the sport. I bet you are one who hates slot limits or any other strict regulation regardless of their importance and feel you should have the right to do whatever you want in whatever water you fish (like bucket biologists). I for one am all about regulations to continue the excellent fishing we have in this state. If you want unregulated waters you are probably living in the wrong era and/or the wrong state. I would guess the parts of Northern Canada may suit your fancy.

We have professional biologists who can hopefully put their personal bias' aside and use foresight and science to do what is required to help our waters reach their potential. Thankfully some of us are not making the decisions or we would have more lakes like pre-slot strawberry and Utah Lake (in trout waters).

Maybe I should mention that I am against all the bail-outs, that I feel the Federal gov't has become too powerful and that the majority of regulations should remain locally (states and counties). We the people ... (are the gov't).


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

spear hunting (as is should be called) should be managed like trophy hunting for elk, deer, antelope etc is. You would have to draw, pay a reasonable price, and then have a one shot punch card for the year.


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## freepunk (Sep 17, 2007)

Jacksonman said:


> I bet you are one who hates slot limits or any other strict regulation regardless of their importance and feel you should have the right to do whatever you want in whatever water you fish (like bucket biologists). I for one am all about regulations to continue the excellent fishing we have in this state. If you want unregulated waters you are probably living in the wrong era and/or the wrong state. I would guess the parts of Northern Canada may suit your fancy.


I am not against regulations to preserve the great fishery that Fishlake is. I believe regulation has its place and should be enforced to the full extent. Right now the waters are not unregulated nor do I think they should be. We have a slot limit and so do H&L guys at Fishlake.
From the proc:
FISH LAKE (Sevier County)
Limit 4 trout, no more than 2 may be lake • trout/mackinaw and only 1 may be a lake trout/mackinaw larger than 20 inches.
Limit 50 yellow perch.•
When ice fishing, the size of the hole may • not exceed 18 inches.

What I am against is regulations that arise from the "majority" feeling like spearfishing is critically damaging the trophy trout population at Fish Lake. The "majority" are not biologist. I am not a biologist but know more trophy trout are taken by H&L guys every year then we could ever hope to spear out of the lake. Somebody show me a study that spear fisherman SPECIFICALLY are hurting this lake and I will shut up and take my regulations. We spear a very very small fraction of fish each year out of that lake compared to the ones dragged up by H&L. I am not anti H&L. I H&L and I love it. I spear and I love it. But if either one of these practices is having a negative effect at Fish Lake then stricter regulations should be in place for BOTH parties to preserve the resource for everyone for future years.


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

Hey its been awhile sense I chimmed in on this topic... 

FreePunk... I am glad your passionate about it... But trust me. Your waisting your time and energy. The RAC already have their mind made up... We are going to lose some priviledges at FL. I have spoken to several top guys in the DNR in Utah and they all say the same thing. " Pulic opionon is all that matters... Facts don't" We could bring a thousand people have all the factual data to support us and it won't matter. Their are to many fishermen who don't want to share the resource. They spoke up and now they have their way. 

I want to say that I am sorry I posted pictures on another website and allowed them to be used against us. I am sorry for several things I posted on here and I am sorry that this thread is still active. 

I will not be attending the RAC meeting however I will continue to spend my money in Utah. I will continue to support tournaments and educate people about what spearfishing is. I just hope that someday the fishermen in Utah that have a problem with spearfishing will be more open minded to understand that there are lots of ways to use the resources without endangering it. A closed mind is more damaging then the spear... 

James Hardesty 
Rocky Mountain Spearfishing Association


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

> I am sorry that this thread is still active.


Ditto.....Glad you're still around James Hardesty !!


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## EmptyNet (Mar 17, 2008)

.45 said:


> > I am sorry that this thread is still active.
> 
> 
> Ditto.....Glad you're still around James Hardesty !!


+1


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Jacksonman said:


> . I bet you are one who hates slot limits or any other strict regulation regardless of their importance and feel you should have the right to do whatever you want in whatever water you fish (like bucket biologists). I for one am all about regulations to continue the excellent fishing we have in this state. If you want unregulated waters you are probably living in the wrong era and/or the wrong state. I would guess the parts of Northern Canada may suit your fancy.///////YOU DONT KNOW ME AND DONT HAVE A CLUE ABOUT WHAT I THINK ABOUT THE REGS SO LET ME CLEAR THIS UP FOR YOU.....SLOT LIMITS ARE GREAT SINCE I RARLEY EAT FISH FROM UTAH SLOTS=MORE FISH FOR ME TO TOY WITH....I PROBABLY ONLY FISH 7 DAYS A YEAR IN UTAH SO REGULATE THIS STATE ALL YOU WANT IT WONT AFFECT ME .....I ALWAY HAVE AND ALWAYS WILL PLAY BY THE REGS. AND I NEVER SAID I WANTED UNREGULATED WATERS HERE IN UTAH OR ANYPLACE ELSE THEY GENRALY MAKE THINGS BETTER . YOU ASSUME I FEEL I SHOULD HAVE A RIGHT TO DO WHATEVER I WANT ON ANY BODY OF WATER I FISH ......DONT ASSUME IT MAKES AN A%% OUT OF U NOT ME....IVE KEPT 4 FISH IN UTAH IN THE LAST 7 YEARS I ATE THEM BECAUSE I KILLED THEM THEY MOST LIKELY WOULD NOT HAVE LIVED .....IVE BEEN A DEDICATED HUNTER FOR 12 YEARS AND HAVE MOST LIKELY DONE MORE FOR FISH AND GAME IN UTAH THAN YOU BUT I DONT KNOW.YOU TELL ME HOW MANY HOURS HAVE YOU SPENT SERVING OUR WILDLIFE I HAVE SEVERAL HUNDRED HOURS ....MABEY YOU SHOULD GO LIVE IN CANADA :evil: :twisted: :evil:


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## Jacksonman (Jan 16, 2008)

I love Canada!. I lived there for several years and would consider returning.

You say:
THATS GREAT ANOTHER LAWYER TRYING TO PASS MORE LAWS ON BEHALF OF WHAT HE/SHE THINKS IS GOING TO BENIFIT HIM/HER THE MOST ARE SYSTEM OF GOVERMENT SUCKS MABEY THEY CAN TAX US MORE TO BAIL US OUT OF THEIR SPENDING HABITS.

You are right. You don't know me and I don't now you. But when you start complaining of "passing more laws" and that"(our) system of govt sucks", it sure sounds like you are anti-regulation. I too hate big govt but I also hate "sportsmen" who care only about their immediate gratification while fishing, keeping everything they catch and likely wasting most of it just so they can bring home fish and have people praise them. One area where I prefer gov't intervention is preserving our limited resources with the help of public input and science. Science hasn't had a chance to study the spearfishing impact yet but common sense and public input have spoken loud and clear. 

As far as wildlife service, like I said earlier I have been a full-time student, part-time employee and full-time husband and father. I am excited to now have time to get out and help where needed and hope to volunteer for some electroshocking events. But I have introduced probably 50 people to the sport in the last 10 years and many of them have become pretty good fishermen (who also generally release fish).


I don't like the taste of fish so i let the majority of what I catch go. But I do keep a few trout on occasion to give away or some panfish and walleye to eat. But I let a 48" musky go and several nice slot cutts at the berry.

I apologize I offended you but try typing without ALL CAPS. IT MAKES YOU LOOK ANGRY, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE ACCUSING FUTURE LOAWYERS OF BEING SELFISH AND ARROGANT!!!!!


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Jacksonman said:


> I love Canada!. I lived there for several years and would consider returning.
> 
> I apologize I offended you but try typing without ALL CAPS. IT MAKES YOU LOOK ANGRY, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE ACCUSING FUTURE LOAWYERS OF BEING SELFISH AND ARROGANT!!!!!


REALY IT MADE ME LOOK ANGRY THAT WAS THE POINT YOU FIGURED IT OUT GOOD FOR YOU :lol: :lol: :lol: NOW LEARN TO SPELL LAWYER IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE ONE.sorry if i offended you. :wink: :wink:


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## Jacksonman (Jan 16, 2008)

ripndrag said:


> Jacksonman said:
> 
> 
> > I love Canada!. I lived there for several years and would consider returning.
> ...


Isn't that how they spell lawyer in Utah? I was just trying to fit in. Just because I was lucky enough to finish law school doesn't mean I am an efficient or otherwise accurate typer. No offense taken. If only I could catch a trophy trout from Fish Lake ...


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## Christopher30 (Nov 9, 2007)

ripndrag said:


> so he most likely killed 3 macks last year that sunk to the bottom after being released.thats three time more than each spearfisher killed .


 How do you figure there pal? I don't understand what you're trying to get at with that one, i'd love to be straightened out because i'm confused by this....


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Christopher30 said:


> ripndrag said:
> 
> 
> > so he most likely killed 3 macks last year that sunk to the bottom after being released.thats three time more than each spearfisher killed .
> ...


lets do some math for you  catch and realease fishing has on average a 10percent kill rate and its a higher percent depending on how deep the fish was caught most large macks are hooked in deeper water so a 10 percent kill is on the low end so if someone caught and realeased 30 fish in one year at fishlake it would be a safe bet that at least 3 of the fish died and sunk to the bottom from the stress incoured from being caught .if the spearos each killed 1 fish last year thats 1/3 of what the guy who catches and realeases 30 fish killed, Im sure the guy who plays C/R means good but he does kill fish he just doesnt see the fish die.


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Isn't that how they spell lawyer in Utah? I was just trying to fit in. Just because I was lucky enough to finish law school doesn't mean I am an efficient or otherwise accurate typer. No offense taken. If only I could catch a trophy trout from Fish Lake ...[/quote]
do you have a gps and a boat with downriggers and a good fish finder? if so then all you have to do is locate a good school and fish it for a long long time mabey paint youre boat while you fish for the macks and watch the paint dry you will have twice the fun and the wait wont feel so long LOL /////actualy the best advice I can give on macks is have a good positive aditude when you go and just keep trying till you get one ,,,,,,if you dont have a boat you can use my boat BTW congrats on finishing law school thats a huge task I am in flight school now and will finish soon and plan to be a bush pilot up in ALASKA yep Im kinda crazzzy.


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## 280Remington (Jun 2, 2008)

heard spearfishermen and fly fishermen were the BIG LOSERS at the Rac meeting in Beaver. I heard the dwr is limiting spearfshng and taking away fly fishing only lakes.


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## Christopher30 (Nov 9, 2007)

ripndrag said:


> I fish fishlake every year and have only caught 1 mack


So you're definitely the authority on the lake then? We should all listen to you you really know how those macks live and die huh. Don't you have to catch some and release them to know about "catch and release"? I would be more likely to listen to you had i not read that. 1 mack? my 5 year old has caught more than that and he's only been twice.


ripndrag said:


> most large macks are hooked in deeper water so a 10 percent kill is on the low end so if someone caught and realeased 30 fish in one year at fishlake it would be a safe bet that at least 3 of the fish died and sunk to the bottom from the stress incoured from being caught


 You better quit reading things like this off wikipedia and catch one or two more before any of us should hold your opinion (on this matter) with any regard. You're really giving out advice for macks?


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

280Remington said:


> heard spearfishermen and fly fishermen were the BIG LOSERS at the Rac meeting in Beaver. I heard the dwr is limiting spearfshng and taking away fly fishing only lakes.


If you mean we ended up with a minor set back because we have to stop spearfishing as of September 15th at fish lake. Then yes that is the case... It doesn't mean we can't spearfish... Best of luck to you all... I am headed out to go spear some walleye...

James Hardesty


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

scubadown16 said:


> I am headed out to go spear some walleye...
> 
> James Hardesty


Looks like a good time to use a heavy rattletrap around some bubbles


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Christopher30 said:


> ripndrag said:
> 
> 
> > I fish fishlake every year and have only caught 1 mack
> ...


does the truth hurt you dont like good stats ?
my advice was to stay positive and keep at it untill you get one.and no Im not a pro on fishlake Its true I fish fish lake every year because we have a family reunion there and Ive only caught 1 mack I dont target macks because they are not worth my time and effort and they dont fight for [email protected] since im the uncle with the boat the kids would rather catch lots of fish so we fish for rainbos and perch while we are there the kids have lots of fun and that is what counts :wink: Ive caught more fish over 35lbs in one day than most pepole catch at fishlake in there lifetime and todate Ive caught over 900 fish over 9 pounds and all this has been done in the last 8 years so put that in youre pipe an smoke it :shock: dont wory I let most of them go.BTW I WILL BE AT FISHLAKE IN JULY AND I WONT FISH FOR MACKS ITS JUST TO BORING LIKE I SAID ITS LIKE WATCHING PAINT DRY :lol:


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Pez Gallo said:


> scubadown16 said:
> 
> 
> > I am headed out to go spear some walleye...
> ...


THATS NOT NICE DIDNT YOUR MOM TEACH YOU TO SHARE :?:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

> my advice was to stay positive and keep at it untill you get one


Yeah.....Christopher30....keep after it, someday you might catch one !! :roll: :wink:


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## Christopher30 (Nov 9, 2007)

Yeah, i'll stay positive and keep releasing all fish under 30lbs i pull out of there. You're right about one thing, if i see them swim off like a torpedo into the deep i usually don't think of them as being dead and laying on the bottom of the lake....In july they might die since the water is 60 degrees, but until then i'm pretty sure they'll be fine.


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

Pez Gallo said:


> scubadown16 said:
> 
> 
> > I am headed out to go spear some walleye...
> ...


Here you go Pez Gallo... I thought you might enjoy this... As Pez Gallo is Rooster Fish.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

ripndrag said:


> I dont target macks because they are not worth my time and effort and they dont fight for [email protected]----we fish for rainbos and perch


Since these fight so well?


ripndrag said:


> Ive caught more fish over 35lbs in one day than most pepole catch at fishlake in there lifetime and todate Ive caught over 900 fish over 9 pounds and all this has been done in the last 8 years so put that in youre pipe an smoke it


So that means you have killed 90 fish over 9 pounds? :shock:

You dont know what you are talking about and your ignorance is really showing in these posts.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

I am really beginning to not be the biggest fan of spearo's.


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

Pez Gallo said:


> I am really beginning to not be the biggest fan of spearo's.


You should call the congressmen and senators... OH wait...I am not sure the RAC can help you out on this one. I shot that in Baja Mexico last week. Pulled me 150 yards through the water before I could subdue him... By subdue I mean stick a knife in his brain... But don't be mad. I feed the whole village Rooster jerky... Thats what they do with them... I bet you thought I just wasted it... :lol:


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Nor-tah said:


> ripndrag said:
> 
> 
> > I dont target macks because they are not worth my time and effort and they dont fight for [email protected]----we fish for rainbos and perch
> ...


so mr bait catcher whos the one who didnt know what they were talking about :lol: you can only hope to catch as many big fish as RIPNDRAG btw thats how I came up with my user name catching large fish that were riping drag.


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

scubadown16 said:


> Pez Gallo said:
> 
> 
> > I am really beginning to not be the biggest fan of spearo's.
> ...


that is one sweet rooster scuba It seems like there are a bunch of pepole in utah that hate anybody that has skills that they dont . Im sorry they are hostile towards you and I hope you dont think less of all pepole in utah there are a few of us who dont judge you and actualy welcome you and hope to learn from you.


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Nor-tah said:


> ripndrag said:
> 
> 
> > So that means you have killed 90 fish over 9 pounds? :shock: just for you{ nor-tar AKA bait catcher }these are sme of my killing tools :twisted:
> ...


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Nor-tah said:


> ripndrag said:
> 
> 
> > I dont target macks because they are not worth my time
> ...


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)




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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

and finaly







.


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

Nice tools... Thanks for the vote of confidence...


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

I guess if you call a 260 pound fish bait then you are right. Not worth my time dude... Maybe I can make some sweet sinkers some day. Then i'll be a real fisherman. :roll:


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## freepunk (Sep 17, 2007)

Pez Gallo said:


> Looks like a good time to use a heavy rattletrap around some bubbles


Go for it. I will just make sure to bring a few .357 Power Heads with me next time I head out. Should be a interesting combination with your kick boat.

I am done posting about spearfishing over here. There are very few people that get emergency restrictions for spearfishing based on zero studies or facts is ridiculous. This thread has opened up a can of worms that WILL lead to more restrictions for everyone in the end. I can almost guarantee that.


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## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

freepunk said:


> Pez Gallo said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like a good time to use a heavy rattletrap around some bubbles
> ...


Is that a threat? Cause if it's a threat, be ready for the cops to show up at your house and take that .357 away. I think it's a threat, that's enough for me, enough for UT LE too. 
Your right, more restrictions are coming, think Arizona.

RAC? Nah, not enough clout. I learned a lot about how the legislature works this spring with HB 187, now I am applying what I learned to what I want to happen to spearfishing in UT. You will never know when it comes to the floor, and if you do, you won't have time to get here to do squat about it.


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## freepunk (Sep 17, 2007)

So trying to snag or entagle a diver when he is holding his breath underwater isnt a threat? I am sure the LE would see it as one when I wrote down the boat number and gave it to them.

Google Power Head TROLL. If they want to knock down my door and take it away they can go for it.

But just to clarify for the UT LE I would NEVER shoot a PH at anyone or any boat. I was just making a stupid comment to an even stupider comment. But boats are a big threat to divers and I hope nobody would intentionally try to "Snag" a diver.

But I am glad HB187 did not pass so I guess I owe you a bit of thanks on that one.


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

:shock:


Nor-tah said:


> I guess if you call a 260 pound fish bait then you are right. Not worth my time dude... Maybe I can make some sweet sinkers some day. Then i'll be a real fisherman. :roll:


260 lbs what when where ? as for the sinkers do a search on alaska outdoors directory on RED LED and see how sweet they realy are they are a patented product that I invented for sockeye fishing have you ever invented anything :?: i did the search for you 
akseakayaker 
Member Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 322

Did a Bonzai Run on the Russian Last night

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and outfished everyone else 4 to 1 with those sinkers! They are awesome! Had 7 on; lost 4 landed 3 in the first hour....waited until after midnight and had my next limit in 45 minutes....I was standing on the bank drinking beer watching everyone else try to get their fish.....
By the way, these reds were actually striking......I felt so bad for a couple of older guys from MN that I gave them a few sinkers as well....

Mark, just let me know where and when to send a testimonial!

PM me with your email address.....I'll send ya a photo

Cliffhanger 
Member Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ketchikan
Posts: 163

Tryouts successful

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ripn'
I tried your weights on the Russian River on opening day and they were great. No snags! See the "ADN Fishing Dude" episode below. The only problem I had was the slider just broke away at one point (just disappeared: nothing left on the line) and I had to go to a different method of tying the weight on in a fixed manner.

http://community.adn.com/mini_apps/v...ENRES=00003387

I tried the weights yesterday at Ship Creek and your Red Lead worked just fine.

I think the design is a success....jim 
__________________
Cliffhanger

FishingBum 
Member Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Pole
Posts: 42

ripindrags/sockeye/red sinkers/reports

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Put Ripindrags weights to the test this weekend. I fished on the Klutina River and the Copper river where there are lots of snags. The fishing was slow so I had lost of fishing time to put the weights through a proper test. I fished the weights on two type of rods my fly rod and my baitcaster and I can tell you the results were the same. 
Here we go. The weights were listed as snaggless weights. Well the do get snagged everyone once in a while but far less that any other weight I have used. The amazing thing about when you do get snagged is how easly you can get this weight free. I fished these weight all weekend and would have not lost them except my hook got snagged and my main line was fraded and it broke while I was trying to free the hook.
Ripindrags awesome product and I would recommend it to all who fish in Alaska. Only question I have is where can I get more. I lost the smallest ones and they are the perfect amount of weight for where I fish.
Thanks for letting me try them out.

RMiller 
Member Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wasilla
Posts: 1,690

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been using the sinkers in the Little Su and you can feel the sinker just slide right over the tree limbs in the water.

They are a great sinker. 
__________________

if you want more I have plenty 8) on second thought youre not worth my time


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

Troll said:


> freepunk said:
> 
> 
> > Pez Gallo said:
> ...


Im here in utah and I will go to the rac and make voice heard I have copies of all these threads and they cleary show youre motives you are selfish and selfserving. Im not a spearo/yet but I feel that speerfishing is being railroaded in utah.


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

To harm another person is stupid. Regaurdless of what type of fishing they are doing... And yes, spearfishing is getting railroaded... Based on lack of knowledge. I have meet some really great fishermen and women in Utah and I really hope that a few of them will step up and speak up for us. I think there is a good compromise that can happen if both sides can agree to give up a little of something. ITs that something that is going to be interesting. Best of luck to you all. 
James Hardesty


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

scubadown16 said:


> To harm another person is stupid. Regaurdless of what type of fishing they are doing... And yes, spearfishing is getting railroaded... Based on lack of knowledge. I have meet some really great fishermen and women in Utah and I really hope that a few of them will step up and speak up for us. I think there is a good compromise that can happen if both sides can agree to give up a little of something. ITs that something that is going to be interesting. Best of luck to you all.
> James Hardesty


Maybe the reason there are still big macks in two of our waters is because we have taken care of our fisheries a little better than Co? Did you guys shoot all yours?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Wow, slap that hand.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

spearhunters = roadhunters

As far as sportsmen go

I'm all for more regs. Regulate the heck out of every fish in the state. I enjoy the pursuit of fish. I don't need to kill every trophy I catch.


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

Pez Gallo said:


> spearhunters = roadhunters
> 
> As far as sportsmen go
> 
> I'm all for more regs. Regulate the heck out of every fish in the state. I enjoy the pursuit of fish. I don't need to kill every trophy I catch.


How do you come up with Spearhunters = Roadhunters ??? Have you ever tryed to spear a fish? I am guessing you have not. It's ok to have your opinion. But please don't assume spearfishing is an easy sport.

For the gentleman who said something about Colorado and why we have so many restrictions... Well my friend I'll let you know that those restrictions are being lifted here in the next year... But I really don't give two craps about Colorado and their restrictions... I am a Wyoming Resident... I am off to shoot some more Walleye.... Two to be exact... Then maybe some Catfish... I don't know if I'll have enough time... Its pretty busy Saturday for me...


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

ripndrag said:


> Ive caught more fish over 35lbs in one day than most pepole catch at fishlake in there lifetime and todate Ive caught over 900 fish over 9 pounds and all this has been done in the last 8 years so put that in youre pipe an smoke it
> IVE KILLED WAY MORE FISH THAN 90 THAT WERE OVER 9 POUNDS I killed 45 sockeye in 2005 that were 9lbs or larger I hit them with a titainum club and cut their gills . And you have only caught 1 fish over 9 pounds the catfish that you got a week or so ago but im not shure it was even 9 pounds. IVE CAUGHT 2 ALBACORE that were 47 lbs 4 kingsalmon 54lbs46/38/36 and probably close to 250 halibut at least 50 of them were over 35lbs :shock: and one was over 300lbs I let her go
> 
> so mr bait catcher whos the one who didnt know what they were talking about :lol: you can only hope to catch as many big fish as RIPNDRAG btw thats how I came up with my user name catching large fish that were riping drag.


That's an impressive amount of fish. How long have you fished Alaska? It's a different story up there. Salmon are caught and kept for food way more than trout are down here. Where did you catch your sockeyes? Did you catch 45 total or 45 were over nine pounds?

I'm not impressed with your dissing on others who haven't had the opportunities you've had or talking down to people who "haven't invented anything." Your sinkers look great, and I'm sure they work really well. The shape of them does make it look like they won't snag, I might have to make a mold and pour some of my own (not exactly the same because you said you patented yours).

I'm not saying that I'm for or against killing fish. I think there should be regulation in everything otherwise people will take advantage of it. I don't think enough people spearfish right now at fish lake to make a huge difference, but I would expect this sport to grow because it does sound fun, and then I think regulation would be of up most importance. Sometimes, it is best to anticipate future over harvest/pressure and put regulations in place before it gets really bad. But, from what I've seen the impact at fish lake at this point in time is not really damaging. (That could change very quickly depending on how many people decide to fish it and how many tournaments they have every year there).

Killing big fish in Alaska is different. They have regulations in place because they anticipate the number of fishermen and realize most of them will keep the fish they catch. They have hatcheries and regulations on commercial fisheries in order to keep sustainable numbers salmon year after year. There have been some mistakes. I was fishing on the Nushagak about 12 years ago and they shut down the sportfishing (at least we couldn't keep anything) because the state had let the commercial guys keep too many fish. I've heard the number of king salmon is way down compared to even a few years ago, I'm not sure what/who is at fault for that. It is unfortunate, that is my favorite fish to catch.

I don't mean to offend anyone and I try to stay neutral on subjects I know nothing about, one of which is spearfishing. Maybe now would be a good time to do some studies on the effects of spearfishing, then place regulations in accordance with the number of spear fishermen and the amount of fish they anticipate them to harvest over the next few years.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

scubadown16][quote]For the gentleman who said something about Colorado and why we have so many restrictions... Well my friend I'll let you know that those restrictions are being lifted here in the next year... But I really don't give two craps about Colorado and their restrictions... I am a Wyoming Resident.[/quote]
:roll: Ft. Collins said:


> http://www.spearboard.com//showthread.php?t=71246[/URL]
> 
> 
> > Thursday Oct 2,2008 Justin Fox and Myself left Ft. Collins.
> ...


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

svmoose said:


> ripndrag said:
> 
> 
> > Ive caught more fish over 35lbs in one day than most pepole catch at fishlake in there lifetime and todate Ive caught over 900 fish over 9 pounds and all this has been done in the last 8 years so put that in youre pipe an smoke it
> ...


That's an impressive amount of fish. How long have you fished Alaska? It's a different story up there. Salmon are caught and kept for food way more than trout are down here. Where did you catch your sockeyes? Did you catch 45 total or 45 were over nine pounds? I have fished alaska every summer for the last 8 years . Most of my sockeye were caught on the keani river but Ive also caught them on the kasilof river. My largest sockeye so far is 14.5 lbs/ in 2005 the limit was 6 fish per day I fish on private property and realease all females most of the males are over 9 lbs I usualy dont keep my limit so I can play catch and realease untill im tired we had a race to catch and realese 50 sockeye and it wore me out I couldnt straighten my arm the next morning. :mrgreen: IT WAS A 96000 FISH SONAR DAY IVE SEEN 133000 FISH DAYS ON THE KEANI. FISH HOOKED ALMOST EVRY CAST BUT NOT AWAYS IN THE MOUTH

I'm not impressed with your dissing on others who haven't had the opportunities you've had or talking down to people who "haven't invented anything." Your sinkers look great, and I'm sure they work really well. The shape of them does make it look like they won't snag, I might have to make a mold and pour some of my own (not exactly the same because you said you patented yours). I TALKED DOWN TO NORTAR BECAUSE OF THIS Report this postReply with quoteRe: Spearfishing Massacre -- Legislature?
by Nor-tah on May 14, '09, 6:02 
So that means you have killed 90 fish over 9 pounds? 
You dont know what you are talking about and your ignorance is really showing in these postsReport this postReply with quoteRe: Spearfishing Massacre -- Legislature?
by Nor-tah on May 15, '09, 9:48 
I guess if you call a 260 pound fish bait then you are right. Not worth my time dude... Maybe I can make some sweet sinkers some day. Then i'll be a real fisherman.

I'm not saying that I'm for or against killing fish. I think there should be regulation in everything otherwise people will take advantage of it. I don't think enough people spearfish right now at fish lake to make a huge difference, but I would expect this sport to grow because it does sound fun, and then I think regulation would be of up most importance. Sometimes, it is best to anticipate future over harvest/pressure and put regulations in place before it gets really bad.////////////// I agree /// ripndrag on May 10, '09, 3:44 alaska fish and game knows how to control the harvest and can make reg changes in days. I would say regulate the taking of macks like kings in alaska on the keani river you buy mack/king stamps and you are only allowed to keep 2 kings/macks per year 1 per day 2 total per year per body of water. 
>>>>>>>>>>>> IM SORRY IF I OFFENED ANY BODY ON THIS FOURM<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
......................IF YOU GUYS WANT I CAN SHOW YOU HOW TO FISH ALASKA FOR 9/10 DAYS WITH A CABIN ON THE KEANI RIVER 2 GUIDED HALIBUT TRIPS CAR RENTAL AND FISH PROCESING FOR LESS THAN 2K PLUS ALL THE RED FISHING YOU CAN HANDEL IF ANY BODY WANTS TO GO WE HAVE 1 SPOT OPENED FOR THS JULY WE LEAVE ON THE 17TH AND RETURN ON THE 27TH


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## scubadown16 (Oct 9, 2008)

Nor-tah said:


> [


Wow... It amazes me that people like you go onto a spearfishing forum read something then get all up in a tizzzy because we talk about what we do. And yes we left FT. Collins. Cause thats where Justin lives... I happen to be a resident of Wyoming... Cheyenne to be exact.. I also have a place in Ft. Collins too. Feel free to stop by anytime... LOL

As far as for the comments that were left in OCT of 2008 I find it funny that you all were and are still out for a witch hunt. We as spearfishermen are being railroaded because of ignorance. I have no problem posting my catches or talking about them. I don't go onto websites knowing I am going to find something that will anger me then post it into a forum that I do like to create drama. That is exactly what happened here. Christopher30 went onto Spearboard took photos I posted along with my story. (Which by the way was published in Australia Freediving and Spearfishing News) And then created all this drama. But its not here or there anymore... I still stand behind my post I am glad you follow everything I am doing... You'll love the photos I post up this year and the stories I'll be writing about Flaming George and Deer Creek and maybe even Fish Lake. Along with with stories from Glendo Wyoming, Alcova, Lake McConnaughy, Pueblo Res, Baja sur California, Australia, and many other places...

Love me or hate me... I don't give two craps. Your still talking about me. Bad publisity is still good .. And thats why I LOL. You have no life... You live it through people like RipNDrag and I... Best of luck trying to catch that trophy...

James Hardesty


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## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

Remember me? 
I love the attitude, It helps me reatly in my quest to have all spearing outlawed in UT. Keep up the good work.


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## Gameface (Jun 7, 2008)

scubadown16 said:


> Nor-tah said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...


I think you've got nothing to be ashamed of. I think any argument that can be used against spearfishing can also be used against H&L fishing and I think a lot of folks who have a problem with what you're doing would cut off their nose to spite their face. You ought to be proud of your successes, and I can tell you are.

Keep up the good work!


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I say to each their own but this spearfishing doesn't seem very sporting to me but I am not sure because I have never done it but it kind of seems like shooting a bird out of a tree. Maybe I am just simple minded but comparing the mortalty of spearfishing to c&r hook and line fishing strikes me as an ignorant comparison. For one I don't believe any scientist has ever followed around a released fish to see how long or if the fish survived. Two the fish chose to attack the lure it didn't choose to be impaled by a spear. The law of averages says hook and line guys are going to kill more fish than spear guys because there are a hell of alot more of us but at least we can release what we catch. I think I have to agree with Troll on this one.I also want it outlawed in Utah.Besides that you were mean to my friend Nortah you 900 fish hero.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> Besides that you were mean to my friend Nortah you 900 fish hero.


 :shock:

-O>>- -O>>-

-_O- -_O-


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

.45 said:


> [quote="luv2fsh&hnt":13bryoip]Besides that you were mean to my friend Nortah you 900 fish hero.


 :shock:

-O>>- -O>>-

-_O- -_O-[/quote:13bryoip]
jelous :?:


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> The law of averages says hook and line guys are going to kill more fish than spear guys because there are a hell of alot more of us but at least we can release what we catch. I think I have to agree with Troll on this one.I also want it outlawed in Utah.Besides that you were mean to my friend Nortah you 900 fish hero.


IF YOU READ THIS THREAD COMPLEETLY you will see that youre littel nortah took the first swing at me. I SIMPLY PUT HIS FOOT IN HIS MOUT FOR HIM AND HAVENT HEARD FROM HIM SINCE NOW HE HAS HIS LITTEL BUDDYS FIGHTING HIS WARS LOL :lol: :lol: Report this postReply with quoteRe: Spearfishing Massacre -- Legislature?
by Nor-tah on May 14, '09, 6:02

ripndrag wrote:
I dont target macks because they are not worth my time and effort and they dont fight for [email protected]----we fish for rainbos and perch
Since these fight so well?YEP THE PERCH FIGHT HARDER FOR THEIR SIZE

ripndrag wrote:
Ive caught more fish over 35lbs in one day than most pepole catch at fishlake in there lifetime and todate Ive caught over 900 fish over 9 pounds and all this has been done in the last 8 years so put that in youre pipe an smoke it
So that means you have killed 90 fish over 9 pounds? YES I HAVE

You dont know what you are talking about and your ignorance is really showing in these posts.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

This stupid thread has gone on long enough, it no longer is entertaining nor informative.


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