# BYU and Notre Dame?



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

OK. With Notre Dame firing Charlie Weiss this week, I've heard lots of commentary about it. This morning, Kirk Herbstreet went off that Notre Dame cannot compete like they once did, because the University is requiring the student athletes to meet the same academic, and other standards required by the university. Notre Dame is a lot of things. First and foremost, it is an excellent university. But it is far better known as THE football icon of the nation. It still has a relatively small student body. 

Herbstreet said something I found rather offensive however. He suggesetd that Notre Dame will never compete at a national level as long as they enforce their academic standards. In essence, he's saying that smart kids cannot play football. And only dumb kids can play football. It falls along the notion that BYU will never recruit fast players until they loosen up honor code standards. I find all these suggestions total hooey. 

I see a lot of similarities with BYU and Notre Dame though. Both religious schools. Both have strict academic standards (extremely similar actually). Both have honor codes or codes of conduct for students. I've heard Bronco say that in the BYU recruiting process, they have a pool of about 30-35 kids every year because of the parameters they focus on. Clearly, Notre Dame has a much larger pool within their parameters - but still. 

Right now, TCU, BYU, Miami, USC and Stanford are the only private universities in the top 25. Of those, BYU and Stanford have the tightest academic standards. So I guess the question are - Is BYU, and Notre Dame, locked into never competing at a national level - meaning that 9-10 wins should be a top level year? Or can schools like Notre Dame and BYU win more than that considering the other requirements of the perspective Universities?


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

I don't think that is the truth in anyway, and also hope that these private universitys never change because education is first and most important. Except for a 5 to 10 players, most wont go pro so the education is what they will need to be successful.
I honestly believe Norte Dame is still a very sought after program for football. I just think they need the right guy leading it, if they get a Brian Kelly?(Cinncinati), or Bob Stoops or even Urban Meyer I think we will see this program return to the top.


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## hyperduc (Sep 18, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> Herbstreet said something I found rather offensive however. He suggesetd that Notre Dame will never compete at a national level as long as they enforce their academic standards. In essence, he's saying that smart kids cannot play football. And only dumb kids can play football. It falls along the notion that BYU will never recruit fast players until they loosen up honor code standards. I find all these suggestions total hooey.


What's so ridiculous or offensive about the truth? BYU above all of the aforementioned schools will have the hardest time getting speed, and its not because only stupid or non-LDs kids are fast or talented. BYU expects players to live the LDS lifestyle, not be LDS or even believe in it, but they need to live the lifestyle to adhere to the honor code. To anyone outside of the faith that can be quite a bit to ask for of a 18-19 year old kid, and most aren't willing to make that type of commitment.

Here is a rather simple but very clear illustration of why they have a harder time competing talent wise:

Say your looking for a car that will do 0-60 in under 6 seconds, you can find A LOT of them without looking too hard. Now while they are out there in large numbers, compared to the average grocery getter they are fairly rare.

Now that you have your list of cars that meet the 0-60 qualification that everyone else uses to find their car, you narrow down the list further by requiring your car to be priced under 30K, it also has to seat four and be able to get around during the snowy months. Your list of cars is now fairly small, and worse yet some of the cars you find might not want you.

Your talking about a small percentage of an even smaller percentage, of course your not going to get the same talent on the field as someone who is wiling to take ANY talent.

With its television contracts, football history and academic reputation Notre Dame can go anywhere in the country and still get recruits, Stanford can do nearly the same for those who are interested in playing for a school with a great academic/athletic tradition.

BYU on the other hand is known to everyone outside of the faith as the Mormon school, they aren't the national powerhouse that they are trying so desperately to convince everyone they are. As far as recruiting goes they can't even compete with the other schools who are handicapped by additional entrance requirements.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Interesting analogy. I'll have to give it more thought. Good though. The terms and conditions a private university choose certainly narrow the recruiting pool - that is certain. 

The part I find offensive I guess - is the suggestion that fast athletes are unable/unwilling to adhere to an honor code (it could be BYU's, Notre Dame, service acadamy, etc...) I don't see how the two are connected.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

GaryFish said:


> Herbstreet said something I found rather offensive however. He suggesetd that Notre Dame will never compete at a national level as long as they enforce their academic standards. In essence, he's saying that smart kids cannot play football. And only dumb kids can play football. It falls along the notion that BYU will never recruit fast players until they loosen up honor code standards. I find all these suggestions total hooey.


I think Herbstriet has a point, to a point. I don't believe that the Y can recruit the DEPTH that the other big power schools have since the talent pool is so low. I would also put other mid majors like your favorite school to the North :wink: , Boise, and TCU, along with academic bastions like Stanford and Northwestern in a similar boat. However, if a given school can hit a couple of good recruits, coach the team up well, and especially, not have injuries during the season, then they can compete on the national stage on occasion when the cards fall right. The U proved this in 2004 and 2008.

Back in 2004, when the U was threatening to bust the BCS for the first time, Urban Meyer was asked repeatedly if his team was good enough to compete with the "big boys". His answer was always the same; "my 1's are as good as anyone". He knew however that his 2's were not. Fortunately, we didn't have any notable injuries that year and the rest is history. I don't believe the Y is any different. Good coaching, no injuries, and a little luck, and you could just as easily get your BCS trip. Doing it year after year is probably another story.


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## orvis1 (Sep 7, 2007)

Tired argument I have heard it time and time again. Notre Dame was ranked in the top 10 recruiting classes over the last few years. Look on any NFL roster and you will find ND player. They play on national TV almost every week and have a huge following nationwide. ND had a BCS caliber offense this year just a Sun Belt Conference Defense. All of the losses were in the 4th quarter and by less than 7 points in most cases. With a good defense ND would be relevant and going to the BCS. Even a 2 loss ND team would be chosen at large over a undefeated Boise State team. I thought if they fired the defensive staff they had a shot with wiess next year but that was not the decision. ND will have a 1st round pick in golden tate and Jimmy Clausen next year because with the firing of wiess they are going to leave early. I am sure that Brady Quinn and Wies will be reunited wherever Quinn lands.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Clearly, Notre Dame has other recruiting advantages with the TV contract, tradition, and all that. And even within the constraints of higher academic standards, with the right coach they can become relevant again. Which to me, would show that higher academic standards does not always equate bad football. I think it can be done. In spite of the recruiting "challenges" that BYU faces, they have still won 10 games a year for four years in a row now. At Notre Dame, that is a BCS game every year. But like BYU and Stanford, I'd like to see Notre Dame adhere to the standards of the entire University, and prove it can translate to success on the field. I think college football is more interesting when Notre Dame is good.


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## orvis1 (Sep 7, 2007)

fatbass said:


> orvis1 said:
> 
> 
> > Tired argument I have heard it time and time again. Notre Dame was ranked in the top 10 recruiting classes over the last few years. Look on any NFL roster and you will find ND player. They play on national TV almost every week and have a huge following nationwide. ND had a BCS caliber offense this year just a Sun Belt Conference Defense. All of the losses were in the 4th quarter and by less than 7 points in most cases. With a good defense ND would be relevant and going to the BCS. Even a 2 loss ND team would be chosen at large over a undefeated Boise State team. I thought if they fired the defensive staff they had a shot with wiess next year but that was not the decision. ND will have a 1st round pick in golden tate and Jimmy Clausen next year because with the firing of wiess they are going to leave early. I am sure that Brady Quinn and Wies will be reunited wherever Quinn lands.
> ...


I always knew I liked the way you think! :mrgreen: If we can find ND a nick sabin that could happen. Gary you seem to be be the most level thinking BYU fan I have ran into in a while. I hope ND and BYU renew the holy war game again that was one of the funnest games I have been to down in Provo.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I do see BYU hurt in the recruiting game to a small degree. I don't see it with the Golden Domers. They seem to get plenty of blue chip recruits every year. They have about everything a NFL hopeful could want in a college; national exposure, great facilities, idol status on campus, pro scout visits.

I do believe the programs that put academics as a/the top priority are hurt on getting athletes to their programs. Stanford right now has the BEST college player in the nation right now, but only because 3 other PAC 10 teams said they wanted him to be a fullback or a linebacker instead of a running back, Stanford said he could play RB. There is a great article in the latest SI about how hard it is for white running backs to be taken serious at all levels; high school/college/NFL. I think Herbstreet is of this same mindset. :?


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

fatbass said:


> I have always thought that BYU drew from a relatively captive bunch of good football players through the church. I mean that there have been MANY good recruits from out of state that came here because they were LDS and wanted to play for BYU and get a good wife...ahem...I meant education :mrgreen: , just as Notre Dame pulled many good recruits because they were Catholic.


I don't think that is true.

[attachment=1:3hm2fi6f]Jim Mcmahon.jpg[/attachment:3hm2fi6f]

[attachment=0:3hm2fi6f]Ty_Detmer.jpg[/attachment:3hm2fi6f]


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

fatbass said:


> I was saving that thought for this post when I got home. :wink:
> 
> In the '80's and '90's, nearly all high school QBs at least thought about coming to BYU. LaVell's brand of offense was every QB's dream. Detmer seemed to have no issue with the honor code. The south seems to grow a lot of faithful Christians and upholding BYU's honor code comes very easily.
> 
> ...


I guess the only sticking point I have is that we are talking about a recruiting perspective, and not so much what happens after.

I've heard McMahon didn't particularly care for each and every word of the honor code, but he still came to BYU because it was a (the) premier quarterback university. And that's what I was getting at.

Ty Detmer was the same, except he actually lived it.

I do think that Mormon ball players still like to go to BYU and BYU does well recruiting them. But they don't have a monopoly on them (think the UCLA quarterback - Ben Olsen?).

I also think there are many good God-fearing folks that wouldn't mind if their sons played ball at BYU, Mormon or not, just like Ty Detmer. Today, I think that that sentiment is motivated more out of a family's desire to keep their boy out of what they feel would be a questionable environment rather than a desire to play ball at a premier university. I think we agree there.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Good. BTW, Roll tide!


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## Comrade Duck (Oct 24, 2007)

Thinking out loud here, and I really haven't formulated an answer, but why can small private universities recruit good enough players to form a championship baseball team, but football is considered impossible to do by the Herbstreets, etc.? I remember how impressed I was watching Stanford and Rice go at it for the CWS championship a few years back, knowing that they are both high academic institutions, with Rice only having a student body of around 3500. Rice won by the way.

Shane


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## hyperduc (Sep 18, 2009)

fatbass said:


> Although BYU will always be a desired QB college


Dude your starting to sound like a real BYU fan, did you forget about the tide?

Seriously move on, BYU was a QB college. They still throw a lot, but when they were a QB college the offense they ran was relatively new and defenses had a hard time figuring out a way to stop it. Plus the guy who pioneered the offense is gone, as are his top coaches during the time.

BYU is happy winning ten games a year as long as the boys are good kids, the administrators acknowledge it, the coaches have confirmed it and recent player comments echo the same sentiment. Notre Dame on the other hand is disappointed winning only ten games, they fire coaches, they turn down bowl invites and they go back to recruiting top tier guys year after year.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

hyperduc said:


> BYU is happy winning ten games a year as long as the boys are good kids, the administrators acknowledge it, the coaches have confirmed it and recent player comments echo the same sentiment. Notre Dame on the other hand is disappointed winning only ten games, they fire coaches, they turn down bowl invites and they go back to recruiting top tier guys year after year.


 Let's deal with reality, *if* ND had won 10 games this year they would be dancing in the streets waiting for a BCS bid. ND hasn't won 10 games in a season for a while now, 3 or more 10 win seasons, you'll have to go waaaay back for that. :?

Comrade Duck, the difference between baseball and football is numbers. A college baseball team can win a lot of games with 1-2 dominant pitchers and decent fielders/batters. IN football you need quality starters AND quality backups due to the high number of injuries that a team takes during a season. Plus, baseball has 9 starters, football has 22 plus special teams. Basketball is the same, a small school like Gonzga can compete with the powerhouses because they only need 7-8 good players in a good system. Football is about depth, and that is why I see more non-BCS schools getting closer to the level of the BCS schools, scholarship limits have somewhat leveled the playing field. Facilities will always be better at schools that dump large amounts of alumni funds into football programs, but on any given year a BSU/Utah?TCU/Cincy can hang with the 'big' boys if they avoid injuries to key players. I think the BCS schools KNOW that, that is why they resist a playoff so strongly.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

fatbass said:


> I stand by my assertion that the title, "BYU quarterback" is a coveted one. 8)


I agree with that. It isn't called QB U for no reason.

The pass has always been BYU's bread and butter. Lately, they've tried to establish more of a run but BYU means passing.

BYU still pumps out some pretty decent quarterbacks. Even after the Detmer era, Steve Sarkisian looks impressive. John Beck may see some great things in the future.

Being a quarterback at BYU is an impressive football resume.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

One of the things that has changed at Notre Dame is the president. It certainly has made a difference at BYU - where Samuelson is much more restrictive than Bateman was. And the President (don't know his name) at Notre Dame is saying that the football team no longer gets special exceptions for admission - they must meet the same standards as the rest of the student body so I'm wondering how that is going to change things.


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## hyperduc (Sep 18, 2009)

It hasn't been called QB university outside of Provo since LaVell left, to further illustrate my point I ask how many NFL games has Y QB won since LaVell left? The answer lies somewhere between 1 and -1


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## hyperduc (Sep 18, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> Let's deal with reality, *if* ND had won 10 games this year they would be dancing in the streets waiting for a BCS bid. ND hasn't won 10 games in a season for a while now, 3 or more 10 win seasons, you'll have to go waaaay back for that. :?


No argument there, they suck...bad

But they still continue to draw some of the best recruits int he country and likely will for quite some time.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

hyperduc said:


> It hasn't been called QB university outside of Provo since LaVell left, to further illustrate my point I ask how many NFL games has Y QB won since LaVell left? The answer lies somewhere between 1 and -1


To be fair, outside Steve Young and maybe Jim McMahon, NO BYU QB has had much NFL success. They were/are known as QB university due to the production by the QB in COLLEGE, not in the pros. Post Edwards, BYU QB's have still been very productive and near the top year in year out.


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