# Excellent lion study,,Focus on prey & diet



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

This is one of the best studies I"ve seen done. 
It will be interesting to see the result of the Monroe study ..

This one was done in Alberta, The big toms liked big game, moose, even feral horse.
Were the females were more apt-ed to take deer...

Another myth debunked,,,Cats had larger appetite during summer months..
Here's a link to the article,,

http://billingsgazette.com/lifestyles/r ... 570b6.html


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Being a wildlife biologist, this study confirms what I have been saying for a very long time. The UDW is made up of a bunch of idiots. Reducing the number of hunting permits to increase herd size is totally absolutely asinine without taking into account the other variables. I have long said that the predator count in Utah (lions, coyotes, wolves and bobcats) is way to high to allow the herd to expand as it normally would. I will give you a classic example. In my home state of Louisiana there are estimated to be well over 1 million deer. The herd has grown rapidly over the last 20 years despite having over 220,000 deer hunters per year. Yep that is 4 times the amount of deer hunters in less than half the area of Utah. For example, in Utah there are approximately 8 deer per square mile, in Louisiana there are approximately 25 deer per square mile despite a much higher human population per square mile than Utah. There is NO LIMIT on the number of deer you can kill in Louisiana but there is a 2 deer per day limit. One buck and one antlerless deer. Even with 220,000 deer hunters and no limit the herd size is still increasing. Anyone care to guess what the primary variable is? Correct, lack of predators. No lions, very few coyotes or wolves, limited bobcats. If the morons in charge of the deer herds here would just take out 50% of the current predator population and hold it to that level as a maximum there would be more deer and bigger deer than this state has seen in a long time but as usual the inmates running the asylum are dumb as a box of rocks.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

We need to harvest 90% of the lions and coyote population. With less mouths out eating red meat then we will have more mule deer. When I was lion hunting it was easy to come across many deer and elk killed. This number adds up to a lot of animals killed.


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## houndhunter (Oct 2, 2010)

LostLouisianian said:


> Being a wildlife biologist, this study confirms what I have been saying for a very long time. The UDW is made up of a bunch of idiots. Reducing the number of hunting permits to increase herd size is totally absolutely asinine without taking into account the other variables. I have long said that the predator count in Utah (lions, coyotes, wolves and bobcats) is way to high to allow the herd to expand as it normally would. I will give you a classic example. In my home state of Louisiana there are estimated to be well over 1 million deer. The herd has grown rapidly over the last 20 years despite having over 220,000 deer hunters per year. Yep that is 4 times the amount of deer hunters in less than half the area of Utah. For example, in Utah there are approximately 8 deer per square mile, in Louisiana there are approximately 25 deer per square mile despite a much higher human population per square mile than Utah. There is NO LIMIT on the number of deer you can kill in Louisiana but there is a 2 deer per day limit. One buck and one antlerless deer. Even with 220,000 deer hunters and no limit the herd size is still increasing. Anyone care to guess what the primary variable is? Correct, lack of predators. No lions, very few coyotes or wolves, limited bobcats. If the morons in charge of the deer herds here would just take out 50% of the current predator population and hold it to that level as a maximum there would be more deer and bigger deer than this state has seen in a long time but as usual the inmates running the asylum are dumb as a box of rocks.


I just want to ask you why the deer population in Louisiana is high. I'm sure the lack of predators is a factor, but what about the enviroment they live in. Only reason i'm asking is because in the 90's in Utah the lion population was much greater than it is today, but I remember seeing more deer and more bucks. I'm not being a smarta**, I would just like your input.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I just want to ask you why the deer population in Louisiana is high. I'm sure the lack of predators is a factor, but what about the enviroment they live in. Only reason i'm asking is because in the 90's in Utah the lion population was much greater than it is today, but I remember seeing more deer and more bucks. I'm not being a smarta**, I would just like your input


.

I remember a winter kill in 92-93 that wiped out a lot of the deer herd, but it didn't affect the exploding lion population at that time.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> The UDW is made up of a bunch of idiots. Reducing the number of hunting permits to increase herd size is totally absolutely asinine without taking into account the other variables.


The "UDW" agrees with you. Be clear that they are not the ones who wanted the tag reduction. Rep's from the division stated many times that this will not grow more deer.

Our favorite conservation group and the wildlife board, along with some vocal Southern boys are the ones that fall under your "idiot" criteria.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Comparing whitetails to mule deer isn't really a good comparison. Whitetails require alot less territory than muleys and are much more adaptive to habitat loss and change. Hell I have seen whitetails in Queens,New York hangin out under a freeway bridge. I haven't read the study GE posted the link to yet but other than pockets in western Montana,the state is sparsely populated and the wildlife isn't constantly molested by humans like in Utah. The ecosystem here has been so affected and manipulated by us that we now must manage the wildlife on a constant basis. I believe we should be managing lions for a minimum number not for as many as we can possibly have. I know it sucks for houndsmen but we have to choose do we manage for maximum lions or do we manage for maximum deer and opportunity for hunters. I vote for the latter.


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

I agree with luv2fsh. I don't think you can lump mulies and whitetails in the same category. Whitetails seem to breed more like rabbits than deer. :?


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

lehi said:


> I agree with luv2fsh. I don't think you can lump mulies and whitetails in the same category. Whitetails seem to breed more like rabbits than deer. :?


Whitetails don't have statistically any more fawns than muleys, so to say they breed like rabbits is not correct. As for the urban sprawl thing or whitetails taking up less room. I have deer that come into my front yard almost every night to take a dump or eat. In Louisiana I never had deer come into our yard. As to why there seemed to be more deer in the 90's and more lions then, well I can't accurately answer that question without seeing the statistics to corroborate that visual assesment. The simple fact of the matter is, no matter what species of animal we are talking about whether it is deer, elk or alligators, the predator population is the most important factor in herd management. The 2nd most important factor is food. As long as there is sufficient food to grow the herd the only thing you have to do is manage the predators. In Utah natural predators kill approximately 2 times the number of deer as hunters do and vehicles kill approximately 20% more deer than hunters do. Hunters are the only ones who actually kill primarily bucks, the predators and vehicles don't normally kill the deer based on their sex.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

LL I thought you posted in another thread that you had a background in wildlife biology. Comparing whitetails to mulies is like comparing apples to oranges. Whiteys are much more tolerant and adaptive to habitat change and fragmentation than mule deer are. I have read several articles that claim a whitetail will be born,live and die within a 2 square mile radius,while mule deer in some studies have had a range up to 50 square miles. I don't disagree that predation is a limiting factor in our deer herd but I also believe we need to find a way to improve,increase and restore migration routes and wintering areas.


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> LL I thought you posted in another thread that you had a background in wildlife biology. Comparing whitetails to mulies is like comparing apples to oranges. Whiteys are much more tolerant and adaptive to habitat change and fragmentation than mule deer are. I have read several articles that claim a whitetail will be born,live and die within a 2 square mile radius,while mule deer in some studies have had a range up to 50 square miles. I don't disagree that predation is a limiting factor in our deer herd but I also believe we need to find a way to improve,increase and restore migration routes and wintering areas.


Bingo. I think the number 1 concern right now should be habitat, then predators, road kill, etc. Hell, maybe the elk are giving the muleys a hard time. :?


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I can smell the BS from 4000 miles away in this thread. 

Lostinlouisiana is spot on in his observation. You act like mulies and whitetails are not even from the same family. As for the adaptability between the two there are mule deer making a living in habitat that a whitetail would starve to death in a matter of weeks in Utah. What about Bountiful? Tell me those deer are unadaptable. Any golf course manager will tell you that mule deer manage just fine in close proximity to human activity. 

As for habitat restoration its the biggest fleecing Utah deer hunters have seen. 100s of millions spent for what an ever decreasing deer herd? Tell me one single unit in the state that has seen any significant increase of deer since a habitat restoration effort? 

And the study Goofy linked is telling. 9000 to 10,000 lbs of biomass in one yr. Do the math thats well over 50 deer per yr. And there is not one single unit in the state that has undergone a significant and sustained predator reduction to prove one way or other that predation is not compensatory. 

I will go one father and say that in the state of Utah predators account for 5 times the hunter harvest. As we p!ss and moan about a statewide LE deer hunt and the loss of 13,000 tags. Some still want to forgo predator control and dump millions into do nothing habitat projects that largely benefit grazers (cattle and elk) over browsers. Habitat may very well be the reason that we don't have 2 million deer in Utah but it has nothing to do with the 300,000 deer we have. So until predation is looked at seriously and capacity is tested. Your just blowing smoke. 

I feel better now. Time for another corona.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Lostinlouisiana is spot on in his observation. You act like mulies and whitetails are not even from the same family. As for the adaptability between the two there are mule deer making a living in habitat that a whitetail would starve to death in a matter of weeks in Utah. What about Bountiful? Tell me those deer are unadaptable. Any golf course manager will tell you that mule deer manage just fine in close proximity to human activity.


Can you explain why there are whitetails in all lower 48 states, but mule deer are only present in a handful of states if they are both equally adaptable? Sure there are some habitats that mule deer live in that whitetails don't/can't, but that is because mule deer are specialized where whitetails are much more adaptable. It really comes down to ONE thing, look at the number of mule deer on this Continent vs the number of whitetail deer. It isn't even close. Nice try.


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