# How hard is it for "the shooter" to shoot sub MOA?



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I have a pretty basic question. Let's say you have a quality rifle with quality glass and a load that is tailored to this particular rifle. In the hands of a Springville Shooter or a long gun this rifle can print sub MOA groups all day. But let's say you put this same gun into the hands of an average Joe who puts less than a box of round downrange every year. How likely is it that he will shoot a sub MOA group with this gun? Does it take a certain level of practice and skill to shoot a 3 shot group under 1 inch at 100 yards? I'm curious because the best group I have ever shot out of my .30-06 is a 1.125 inch group with 150 grain Barnes TTSX. 

I once shot a 4 shot group with some 130 grain Nosler Partitions from Sellier and Bellot in an old Savage 110 .270 win. Three of the shots were almost touching each other in a horizontal line and the fourth hit about 3 inches high of the rest of the group! Talk about a buzz kill! I think the heavy, crappy trigger may have aided in that flier, though. I plan on having a trigger job done on this rifle, replacing the bargain barrel Simmons scope with a nice 3x9 Leupold I have lying around and having the ugly stock replaced with a black and grey laminate stock from Boyd's that my wife loves and giving it to her as a gift sometime soon. That rifle will be sweet!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Most guys I see "sighting in" their rifle aren't even using a bench / rest in some cases, just shooting off a knee / off their hand with elbow on the hood (or worst) and complaining about a 5-8" group. 

I think the VAST majority of "common guy" shooters cant break 2MOA, with any rifle. Guys that are consistently sub MOA, have a GOOD rest, and GOOD trigger control. When friends / neighbors ask me for advice on a poorly shooting gun, I first ask what type of rest are they shooting off, then I ask if *I* can shoot it off my shooting rest. Rest is the first variable that has to be eliminated from the accuracy equasion.

I am probably a pretty crappy shot compared to SS or Longbow... but I know darn well the first step of any quality shooting is get a good rest.


-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Shooting is a lot like running. Some people are just born with the ability to run 7 minute miles while others have to work really hard to run 9 minute miles. I happen to be the 'un-gifted' brand of shooter. I have to practice a bunch and use the best rifles, loads, and rest equipment in order to remain even decent.....which is what I consider myself.

If you really want to check yourself, you need to have a 'proof' rifle on hand. That is, one that will shoot consistently as good or better than your ability. Then, check yourself once in a while against this rifle. Mine is a bolt 223. Often times I have to go back to the basics after long stints working with hard kicking magnums. 

I'd say 2-3 MOA is fairly standard for those shooting factory rifles and loads off less-than-perfect rests.-----SS


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Does it take a certain level of practice and skill to shoot a 3 shot group under 1 inch at 100 yards?


Funny you should post this today. I just finished finalizing a load for my 22-250 SPS Varmint Special a couple days ago. 1/2 - 3/4" groups seem to be the norm for this gun. Yesterday I loaned it to a kid that works for me so he could take it up to the range. He listens to instructions and has become a fine shot since he started here. All his groups were under a MOA. This morning another young man heard us talking about his shooting and wanted to go shooting with us this morning. He said he shoots a lot but...... Anyway, I keep records of each group I shoot and the difference in group size between different shooters with a qualified accurate rifle is amazing. My 5-shot groups this morning were .583, .598 and .778. Nick's were .527, .757 and .608. The other guy's groups were all over 2 inches.

A dead rest, a straight-back trigger squeeze and no flinching takes practice but goes a long way to shrinking your groups.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Like others have said it takes practice and the knowledge of how to shoot a sub moa groups, not to mention a rifle that will do it consistently.

I have two rifles in my safe that I can say will do the rifles part. A Weatherby 340 mag, and a Ruger #1 in .22-250. I even amaze myself when I take them out to the range at what they will do. I am now working on my Weatherby Vanguard in .25-06 and am sure that it will shoot under a moa if I do my part. So I would say it is 50% rifle 20% load for that rifle, and 30% shooter. But I am just guessing at those percentages. 

I do know that a competent shooter can take my .22-250 and shoot it a lot better than I can, but then I can shoot my .340 Weatherby better than most. And as for the Vanguard in .25-06 it is going to be my go to rifle for long shots at antelope and a coues deer this coming December.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> Like others have said it takes practice and the knowledge of how to shoot a sub moa groups, not to mention a rifle that will do it consistently.
> 
> I have two rifles in my safe that I can say will do the rifles part. A Weatherby 340 mag, and a Ruger #1 in .22-250.


We've talked about this before... I have the same Ruger #1 rifle and its amazing. Scary to reload for... the hotter you get those pills the tighter the groups. Way way way fun rifle though... and among the most beautiful.

My next best rifle is a Stag 6L AR15. It came from the factory with a .5MOA guarantee... my reloads got it down to .4" which I'm ecstatic about in a semi-auto.

My worst ever rifle was a Rem700BDL in 270 @ 3.5MOA, Took a serious look at it and found the pressure point in the forearm was mucking with POI so 5 minutes of careful work with the dremel, a shot of polyurathane to waterproof it, and it dropped to sub 1.25 MOA.

-DallanC


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

There was a guy at the range yesterday that was matching bullet holes with a .20-47 Lapua at 100 yards, just amazing.

I spent the day trying get get my scopes to focus, shooting with and without my glasses, and fighting parallax error; normal stuff. 

I'm on paper at 25 yards, thank you.

I had a good rest....slept 6 hours the night before.



.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

Friday I took a good friend out to the range who Had never shot anything more than a bb gun growing up. Watched his first few shots and gave him about 2 minutes of instruction. Now my rifle is consistently .5-.6 moa when I shoot it. I let him shoot about 30 rounds with core lokt ammo and then decided to see how he grouped with good ammo. Here's one of his two groups (who were both really about the same) at a hundred yards. The top hole was cold bore. 

Some people are naturals but never learning bad habits also goes along way in precision.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

There are quite a few folks that come into the store that are capable of sub MOA accuracy. They just need to find that one special rifle that is as well.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

wyogoob said:


> There was a guy at the range yesterday that was matching bullet holes with a .20-47 Lapua at 100 yards. amazing
> 
> I spent the day trying get get my scopes to focus, shooting with and without my glasses, and fighting parallax error; normal stuff.
> 
> ...


:shock: :? 8)  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> There was a guy at the range yesterday that was matching bullet holes with a .20-47 Lapua at 100 yards. amazing
> 
> I spent the day trying get get my scopes to focus, shooting with and without my glasses, and fighting parallax error; normal stuff.
> 
> ...


UUHHH......you didn't say how big that paper was at 25 yards;-)

TOP....YES!


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

CCG, IMHO (be it right or wrong) to become an accurate and consistent sub-moa shooter these are the things Ive passed along to others and the order I usually put them in. (1) Trigger time with focus on breathing techniques (2) Time and money to develop a sub-moa load, including quality components (3) A halfway decent rest, doesn't have to be expensive, I think mine was $40.00 or so (4) A rifle, again some of my most accurate rifles cost under $400.00 so do your research. Things like free floated barrel, pillar bedding and heavy barrel are good qualities to look for in a basic factory rifle.

All that being said, each shooter is a little different. Ive got guns that I can shoot under 1/2" 5 shot groups with but others cant. My Brother-in-law has a gun and load he tuned that he shoots under 1/2" loads with that I find tough to keep under 1".

I believe all guns are capable of sub-moa groups providing they have no defects and you have the time, patience and cash needed to find its sweet spot. Problem is, most guys only shoot maybe a hundred rounds a year out of their guns if that, which usually produces a 1 M.O.D (Minute Of Deer) shooter at 100 yards.

Oh and want to talk about a Buzz Kill, lol Never stop shooting to look through the spotting scope until you shoot all 5 rounds :mrgreen:


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

My shooting at the range really improved once I got a good set of sandbags. I'd go to Lee Kay and use the carpet covered blocks that they have but found that they were too low for me laid flat or too high when when I'd put them up on their side... I couldn't find a happy medium so I had to take matters into my own hands. I made a set of sandbags from an old pair of jeans and had an extra bag of sand from filling up a portable basketball hoop. I looked at a bunch of different sets that were out there and ended up using some Caldwell and Cabela's brand bags as inspiration in my plans.

Immediately my groups at the range tightened up... which meant more confidence in my gun and myself... which then translated into better shooting in "hunting situations".


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Derek - those bags look exactly like the ones I've got as well. Super cheap to make and they have been a huge help.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

I dont think its that hard if the gun will do it. just dont over think it.


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## Kevinitis (Jul 18, 2013)

It helps if you don't drink caffeinated beverages before you shoot. I can't shoot sub MOA after a mountain dew, but I can if I don't drink a soda before hitting the range.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

Man, I can't shoot .5moa until after at least 2 mountain dews. I may have a problem...


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Jmgardner said:


> Man, I can't shoot .5moa untik after at least 2 mountain sews. I may have a problem...


+1 ... cept w/ Coke.

-DallanC


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