# Pack goats?



## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

I'm entertaining the idea of getting and/or starting a pack herd. I've done some research but would like to hear from someone that has personal experience with pack goats.

I would like to hear the pros/cons? 

Rough cost per month for 7-10 head? ( enough to carry an elk out of the backcountry)

And if they are really worth the effort in maintenance?

What breeds are preferred as well?

Thanks


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

There is a thread on here about them, I remember someone even sharing pics of the herd, do a search and you can find them, it has been many years ago.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Here is some more info: http://highuintapackgoats.com/ Clay is a wealth of knowledge on packgoats. And I can put you in touch with Charlie Jennings up in Deweyville, he has some goats, and I think is still with http://www.napga.org/

I have had pack goats, I got them after tearing my ACL because I did not think that I was going to be able to carry much of load. A lot of guys use alpines and obers. I had obers and togenbergs. Togs are devil goats, big, strong, agile and smart. sometimes to smart for their own good. They are very individual with people, and imprint. I love togs, but would probably not recommend them to everybody.

A lot easier than horses, but you can't ride them. They take care of themselves for the most part, they follow along like dogs, and you don't typically need to tie them up at night. But the use of a high line in sensitive alpine areas is recommended.

On the trail you have to watch for horses, horses that have not been around goats will spook terribly. Mules almost never spook, but the rare one will get nervous. Always best to take the goats as far off trail as possible to let the horses pass.

Feed is cheap, they ate weeds most of the year, and required only about 20 bales of hay each through the winter. Goat saddles and panniers are not real cheap, and there is not a lot of it available, but better than it used to be. I can probably get you a discount on saddles and bags.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

These: http://northwestpackgoats.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=59 are really good panniers.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

I have a couple- 20 bales each thru winter is pretty much right on- besides getting them used to packs etc- not much maintenance except making sure they have water. Very smart animals- they just follow you along and sleep by the tent- no need to tie down or lead- need to get them used to water crossings. I have had Alpines- Sannens and Lamanchas- the later being the smartest- Don't let anyone fool you about a goat eating anything- they can be very picky- but if they have to they will eat - Best that you monitor the diet in the winter. off to Atlanta- won a round trip to the kick off classic in Atlanta tonight from the local grocery store- I'll be the only guy in a USU jersey


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

I went on my first pack goat trip this year. My cousin has alpines. Good goats and easy to work with. We didn't get an animal so never loaded them heavy but was nice hiking in with just my bow. 
If you have some land to keep them on then costs will be minimal. 20-30 bales in the winter is what he feeds as well. 
He also ties them up around the house to keep up with yard chores.


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

Didn't I just have this conversation with you the other night at the store?


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

Packfish said:


> off to Atlanta- won a round trip to the kick off classic in Atlanta tonight from the local grocery store- I'll be the only guy in a USU jersey


Wish I were as lucky as you. I'm a huge West Virginia fan and they play Bama on Saturday in the Kickoff Classic in ATL. Should be a good game tonight though. I'm rooting for Boise State. Apparently they are expecting over 1 million visitors coming into Atlanta over the next few days (two CF games, Nascar, DragonCon, several big concerts, etc.). Have fun.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

A good friend and I got into pack goats over twenty years ago (John Caple) from Santquin now Chandler AZ. It was the big chraze back then to have llams or pack goats. Not sure who is building pack saddles and panuards anymore but John use to infact he done a lot of sports shows. There are a few advantages to pack goats, but after trips to most of the western states I can tell you that I would have been better off with a backpack or horses. I know I would have gotten in more hunting time with the backpack. 

Just my opinion. Big


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Personally I would sooner contact somebody that already has animals to pack you in or out......or both. There are lots of guys that are willing to do it and can give you a pretty fair price. Ty with TS Mules has done a lot of training for us and has assisted getting us deep with extra mules and he is about as honest as a guy as you will find. He has been there, done that when it comes to packing and can put people on animals that are safe to ride.

I only have two mules myself or I would offer it as a service a lot more.


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

hunting777 said:


> Didn't I just have this conversation with you the other night at the store?


Pretty sure of it! I didn't know you were on here?


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Lonetree said:


> These: http://northwestpackgoats.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=59 are really good panniers.


Thanks, have you done a lot of out of state travel with them?


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Personally I would sooner contact somebody that already has animals to pack you in or out......or both. There are lots of guys that are willing to do it and can give you a pretty fair price. Ty with TS Mules has done a lot of training for us and has assisted getting us deep with extra mules and he is about as honest as a guy as you will find. He has been there, done that when it comes to packing and can put people on animals that are safe to ride.
> 
> I only have two mules myself or I would offer it as a service a lot more.


That may be a good option for this year, do you have some contact info?

Thanks


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

bigbr said:


> A good friend and I got into pack goats over twenty years ago (John Caple) from Santquin now Chandler AZ. It was the big chraze back then to have llams or pack goats. Not sure who is building pack saddles and panuards anymore but John use to infact he done a lot of sports shows. There are a few advantages to pack goats, but after trips to most of the western states I can tell you that I would have been better off with a backpack or horses. I know I would have gotten in more hunting time with the backpack.
> 
> Just my opinion. Big


Big,

Will you be willing to share some stories about the cons? Thanks


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

The cons are they'll eat your tulips, cant pack as much as a horse, slow if you load them down with more than 20 lbs.

If you get big goats, have them imprinted on you and keep them fit they can be a good tool in the back country.

If you get a regular dairy goat, dont imprint them on you and dont keep them fit there not worth anything but weed eaters.

I like mine but when I use them I dont load them up. My regular three day overnight pack weighs around 60 lbs if I include bow, tripods, spotting scopes ect. I split up my gear. I pack scope, bow, binos, tripods or stuff I dont want a farm animal to ruin. The goats pack food, water, extra clothes, my hammock, and sleeping bags. When I shoot a deer they pack all the meat and I pack my gear out.

Each goat packs about 20 lbs going in. More coming out if im successful.

The goat in the first photo is packing dear quarters and water.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Goats with horns look cool but are dangerous imho. They were always good arround me but I did take an occasional poke to the ribs loading them with gear. It hurts!

I also had one of mine hurt one of my kids. I gave it to some mexicans.

I preffer hornless goats. However I love the look of big horns. This is one of clays goats. He was packing at least 50 lbs in this photo up one of the steapest hills on the wasatch front. This goat did it as easy as a full grown man however he was used a lot and in very good packing shape.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

If I could afford horses they would be my first choice for packing! Goats are a poor mans pack stock. 

I reccomend two goats per hunter when hunting deer.


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

swbuckmaster said:


> If I could afford horses they would be my first choice for packing! Goats are a poor mans pack stock.
> 
> I reccomend two goats per hunter when hunting deer.


What's a ballpark cost per month?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I think its 9 bucks a 50 lb bail of grass hay. I get mine cheaper. A goat will eat about 
3-4 lbs a day each. 

Id guess arround a $1.5 a day per goat. If you have some property it will cost less.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> Goats with horns look cool but are dangerous imho. They were always good arround me but I did take an occasional poke to the ribs loading them with gear. It hurts!
> 
> I also had one of mine hurt one of my kids. I gave it to some mexicans.
> 
> ...


Cabrito! :mrgreen:

That is "Goatee" he could pack one hell of a load in his day. When we did the length of the Uintas back in 2006 he was carrying around 60 lbs.

I did not take goats that trip, and packed self contained as a test for my leg. 9 days and 100+ miles later, I was good. I stopped using mine as much after that.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Elkaholic2 said:


> Thanks, have you done a lot of out of state travel with them?


I've had my goats up in Idaho, and we used to take Clay and Charlies goats to the winds for fishing trips, but you can't use goats in most of the Wind Rivers any more.

Just like horses, you need a health certificate to cross state lines.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Also like SW said, you want big goats. Big and tall goats. Goatee could pack a lot, and I know some boers that are very stout, and pack around 50# all the time, but tall goats get through things better. That's one of the reasons I like Togs, long legs.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

http://www.tsmules.com/


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I prefer a mix Saanen/alpine/boar to a pure breeds. I would also reccomend only buying from a pack goat breeder. They breed for height and heart. Dairy farms breed for milk and short legs.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Elkaholic2 said:


> Big,
> 
> Will you be willing to share some stories about the cons? Thanks


First thing I will say is that I have yet to find a stock fence that goats cannot climb or find some way to escape. Goats love to climb on cars, rv's, farm equipment, out buildings and yes even trees. To a goat, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and they love flower and vegetable gardening. And the news paper I might add. Goats establish a pecking order and imprinted or not they will most always go wherever the lead goat goes and that is not always in camp. It is not always good to establish yourself as the dominate goat so to speak unless you want the goats with you at all times on your hunt or you plan on tying each goat up at camp. Nothing more annoying than bellowing goats as you leave camp.

There are only a few types of goats that make for good pack animal, (Alpine, Highland , Newbian, Lamncha, etc,) and I know I have forgotten a couple and I am outdated. Weathers' seem to make better pack animals, but size is the most important. SB has it about right, 20 pounds per animal for long distance packing, however I have seen a couple of goats that could pack 35 pounds all day. Your trip is only as successful as your weakest goat. And with that said it does not hurt to bring a long a non packer, because goats height to be left behind. Gotta go but I will try and tell some war stories later.
Big


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

+1 on the fence. They have to stand on it all the time. Tou might not think they weigh that much but they all stand on it at the same time. So you get 400-500 hundred lbs of goats if you have two.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

You need to establish yourself as the herd alpha. As for leaving them tied up at camp, this is why you need 2 or more goats, they are very social animals and if you leave them by themselves they will cry, want to follow, or head back to the trail head. You need to be alpha for them to follow along without leads. A group of goats that are acclimated to being high lined at camp, will have no trouble with you leaving. 

Pack weights: I find goats to be very comparable to humans in many ways. They walk at about the same pace as most humans(I find them slow in many situations). And pack weight affects distance, in a very similar manner. For longer days ~15-20 miles, 20 pounds or less is probably where you need to keep it. But for shorter days of less than 10 miles, a goat in good shape can do much more. Less than 5 miles, in moderate terrain, you can max them out. Speed is affected by all of this as well, going slower, means you can haul more as well. This all assumes that they are in good physical condition. 

There is a lot of credence put into breed. Guys like Clay from High Uintas pack goats would get most of his goats as rescues from where ever. And Clay had some of the best packers I have ever seen. John Mionczynski, was the guy that introduced goat packing to the Western world, prior to that it was known to regions such as the Himalayas. John started using goats over in the Wind Rivers of Wyoming to study bighorn sheep(selenium) in terrain that horses could not be used in. John figured a lot of it out early on, on his own, and there were no breeders. It is more about a certain kind of goat(conformation), and their personality that matters. The next part is working with them, and keeping them in shape. The best bred goat is worthless, if not trained and conditioned. John wrote a book that is currently out of print. It is by far one of the best written on the subject, some of what is in print today is a little questionable. If you ever come across "the Packgoat" by John Mionczynski, pick it up.

Weathers: These are not just preferred, but a requirement. A 200+ pound goat, that is not weathered, will put you on the ground in a split second in the fall. And the smell alone will keep you 50 yards from him. 

Fences: I always backed up my fences with electric. Its cheap, and with solar options, you can place them anywhere. Goats constantly test fences, turn your electric wire off, and they will be out in a week, probably sooner if working as a team like SW mentioned. 

Goats are not ready to pack full loads until they are 4 years old. You need to work with them from the time of birth. If using horned goats, this is important, you want to never touch or handle them by their horns. You establish early on that they do not every engage humans with them. Start touching their horns, they will start "touching" you back. My goats survived what could have easily been a fatal attack from a group of pitbulls, because they could defend themselves with their horns.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I saw goatee hit a german shepard so hard with his horns it sounded like he hit it with a baseball bat in the teeth. 

You will find all dogs on the trail hate goats and all horses fear them. I once saw a horse go completle nuts and run a mile down the trail dragging its saddle. Lol. I even stopped a hundred yards out and asked the cowboys to hold their horses. They said I was ok. Not!


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Lt do you have any photos of your goats on hunts


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

If I pull the trigger on this I'll start with at least 2-4 goats..

Lt, sw... Do you guys prefer horned? There is a lot of debate about this I'm finding out through other sites and what info is out there...

Lt: did mionczynski work on the the sheep project with hutto? 

Sw: how much room do you give your goats at home or where ever you keep them?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> Lt do you have any photos of your goats on hunts


 I don't have a single picture of my goats when I owned them. Or much in the way of pictures from that time frame, I was slow to go from 35mm to digital. I have a few pics of them hiking in Washington from the guy I bought them from, I'll round them up tomorrow. Clay has a picture of one of them here: http://highuintapackgoats.com/memorial.html Fraanz he has pictures of, Haanz he does not. The info on his website is wrong, they were born in 2000. When I moved to the city they went to Clay's. Like I said Franz was a "devil goat". He was great for me, but was very "high spirited" for most people. He was by far my favorite goat. He is living out his old age as a companion to horses.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Elkaholic2 said:


> If I pull the trigger on this I'll start with at least 2-4 goats..
> 
> Lt, sw... Do you guys prefer horned? There is a lot of debate about this I'm finding out through other sites and what info is out there...
> 
> ...


 I prefer horns for their own defense. I have seen goats that were not good with their horns around people, but this mostly because they are not handled correctly. Some people are concerned about horns and children, and this could be a concern just in general handling. Not so much from intentionally being mean, but like SW mentioned about getting a horn in the side when saddling. My daughter and her cousin used to ride the goats, we never had any trouble with horns. The only trouble was Hans liked to gently nudge kids on to their butts with his nose, he was a very nice goat, and even did this gently.

Hutto worked for Mionczynski in the early 2000s on the sheep research. His book "The Light in High Places" is about that work http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/light-in-high-places-joe-hutto/1100074141?ean=9781628737493 That was prior to his work with mule deer that he chronicles in "Touching the Wild" http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/touching-the-wild-joe-hutto/1116962478?ean=9781626362130


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Just finished "touching the wild". Good read for sure!


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

*some pictures- not many*

A few pictures I had on this computer


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