# Whats your thoughts on proposed 2011 changes?



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

One thing that we now for sure will change next year is the drawing/application dates..
This is from the new antler-less guide book,

Prepare for 
big changes
If you hunt Utah’s big game species,
whether they’re antlered or antlerless,
you need to know about changes that
will happen in the 2011 season.
The first and most noticeable change
is that the traditional Big Game
guidebook will not be printed
before the application period
next year.
Instead, a combination of online
tools and other printed materials will
provide essential details about the 2011
big game hunts and how to apply for
them. Visit wildlife.utah.gov in late March
2011 to see maps, boundaries, hunt
tables and application dates.

And here are some of the 2011 proposals....

General deer and elk hunts

Four major general-season deer and elk changes could occur in 2011:

>Two general rifle deer hunts
The first idea would keep the number of general rifle buck deer permits the same as it is now (no more than 97,000 permits), but it would split Utah's general rifle deer hunt into two hunts.

Each hunt would be nine days long, just like the hunt is now, but hunters could choose to participate in an early hunt or a late hunt.

The early hunt would be held at the start of October. The late hunt would happen at the end of October.

Having two rifle deer hunts would reduce by half the number of hunters in the field at any one time.




Hunting deer and elk at the same time

Another idea would let you hunt deer and elk at the same time. The DWR is considering holding the general rifle buck deer hunt and the general rifle bull elk hunt on the same days.


Hold muzzleloader deer and elk hunts at the same time

In addition to holding the rifle deer and elk hunts at the same time, the DWR is considering holding Utah's general muzzleloader deer and muzzleloader elk hunts at the same time too. The general muzzleloader deer and elk season would be held in the middle of October, between the two rifle hunts.

The DWR is also considering adding a second muzzleloader elk hunt a general any-bull elk hunt. That hunt would happen in mid November.

Same start dates every year

A third idea is to start all of Utah's big game hunts on the same calendar days every year. For example, if Aug. 21 was chosen as the day to start the general archery elk hunt, the season would start on Aug. 21 every year, even if Aug. 21 didn't fall on a Saturday.

The only exception would be if a start date fell on a Sunday. Then the season would probably begin on the proceeding Saturday.


Limited-entry deer and elk hunts

The DWR also has two ideas for Utah's limited-entry deer and elk hunts:

Dates for limited-entry elk hunts

One idea would change the dates of the limited-entry elk hunts. It would also give archers first chance at the elk.

Starting in 2011, biologists would like to start the limited-entry archery elk hunt in early September and end it in mid September. That's when the elk are at the peak of their breeding season.

(The breeding season is also known as the rut. During the rut, elk are less wary because they're focused on breeding. That makes it easier for hunters to take them.)

After the limited-entry archery hunt ended in mid September, the limited-entry muzzleloader elk hunt would start the next day. Muzzleloader elk hunters would have the elk to themselves for four days. Then the limited-entry rifle hunt would also begin. Both the muzzleloader hunt and the rifle hunt would end on the same day in early October.

.
Hold the general and limited-entry rifle deer hunts at the same time

An additional idea is to hold the limited-entry rifle buck deer hunt at the same time the general-season rifle buck deer hunt is held.

The hunt on some limited-entry deer units would happen at the start of October. The hunt on other units would happen at the end of October.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

I don't like the idea of the muzzle loader hunt being held between the rifle deer hunts. the first rifle hunt will be the hunt most people will put in for, the deer will be to spooked to hunt with a muzzle loader after rifle hunters have been hunting them :evil: 

not only that deer and elk don't usually hang out in the same areas. my deer hunting spot is not even close to where i like to hunt elk :x


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The biggest problem that I see in that proposal is some of the archery hunts and muzzle loader hunts. It just doesn't make any sense to put the muzzle loader between two different rifle hunts. They should either put it before both of the rifle hunts or after both of them. 

It is interesting in that here in Colorado the deer and elk archery hunts start towards the end of August and end the last weekend of September with the muzzle loader hunt for both deer and elk the second weekend of September for 9 days with no problems. As far as hunting rifle deer and elk at the same time Colorado has done it that way for a long time but you had to hunt both animals during the same season witch there are 4 of and 1 elk only hunt. It has been just recently that you could hunt elk in one rifle season and deer in another witch works out a lot better if you hunt different areas. 

One thing that I would like to see Utah do is a survey of hunters that hunt just elk or just deer and see what kind of pressure that might put on the animals. I also believe that the DOW is just throwing a lot of ideas out there and seeing what ones stick and witch ones slide down the side of the wall. It would also be interesting to see just what a lot of the justification is for some of the ideas such as putting the muzzle loader hunt in the middle of the two rifle hunts.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm pretty sure that after the last RAC meetings they changed the muzz hunt to be before the two general rifle seasons. Correct me if I'm wrong guys!


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## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

Muzzleloader hunt between rifle hunts is a joke! Back when it was late season it started after the rifle hunt, took about three to four days before the deer would relax. And le muzzy elk four days before le rifle elk starts? They want you to apply for thirteen years and give you a whole four days to hunt! And once the rifle starts you have to put your orange on. Really who comes up with ideas like this? Better yet who they trying to cater to?


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## huntnbum (Nov 8, 2007)

It sounds like a pretty good idea to split up the rifle hunters.
I do think it puts the muzzy hunters at a disadvantage, but you can't please everyone.

The thing that will make it interesting is what percentage of rifle hunters will take the early season to get the best chance at an Elk, and what percentage will opt for the second season for the best chance at a deer?

Oh and whatever happened to the rumors a few weeks ago about a either sex rifle elk hunt?


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

The idea I got out of it was the first muzzy hunt would be between the first and second rifle hunt. The second muzzy hunt would be the second week in November making the first hunt completley undesirable, and the first muzzy hunt the first LEOTC hunt. Not horrible ideas, a lot to take on @ once.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

Hogan, where are you getting this info? I have not heard of them wanting to split up the muzzy hunt like that. If it's true, I'm in for the late hunt.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the link to the 2011 hunt calender showing Gen. Muzzy dates as 10-12 thru 10-20.
This is the only revision I could find..

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meeting ... -11-03.pdf


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

one thing for sure is these season dates and changes will not happen. It is all smoke and mirrors. The real proposal is being concocted by sfw and the wildlifeboard right now behind closed doors and will be sprung on us at the end so no one can argue the problems or benefits with it.

It could include LE deer state wide
drastic cuts in deer tags across the board
over the counter spike deer hunts and once in a life time hunt for 4 point buck "works for elk right"

10 day seasons for LE archery deer 10 day season for muzz and rifle
same draw odds for all there weapons after the cuts. 

The elk seasons wont change they are getting tons of money for those rifle bull tags in the rut. with a possible exception of more people will be getting paid with tags and more back heavy back slapping. 

sorry for being pessimistic but I haven't seen a proposal that comes through the division or on the internet get passed it never looks the same and it is never proposed by anyone on these forums.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I don't like the changes. I feel that less pressure will increase success rates during the split rifle seasons. Honestly guys, would you rather hunt with 10,000 guys afield or 5,000? Of course we would all choose less people- because it would mean a better chance at success. I know some will say that the deer are run from one canyon to another during the current system and they can't get away from hunters, but I see the opposite effect.

Also, that early start date will slaughter the high country bucks where I hunt. By late Oct, those deer are down in the timber and harder to hunt, but in early Oct they are still above timberline. Again, it would be great for the hunter for one year, but very hard on our deer herds.

The elk/deer overlap is tough for me personally. I hunt any bull in the Uintas and deer in the Central. I see it splitting families hunts, as I know my own family will be torn as what to do. The later elk dates will be very tough for the Uintas and weather. I doubt I'd pack in 10 miles the end of Oct.

It feels like Utah is trying to copy Colorado. The difference is Colorado has liberal elk opportunity and many deer tags. The terrain in Colorado also lends itself to better escapement for the animals. So I can't see much good coming from these proposals.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

I would much rather see the LE archery and muzy hunt run together then see the muzzy and rifle.

I like the idea of a split deer general season and the option of hunting elk at the same time.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

GoofyElk, thanks for the post. That was all I could find as well. I've emailed the DWR about the proposed changes and I'll let this forum know what (if anything) I find out. It sure doesn't make any sence to me that we can go to the RAC's and voice our concerns about the muzzy hunt being sandwiched between split rifle deer seasons and it remains as it is in that calendar of seasons. I'm hoping beyond hope that they just haven't made the changes in that calendar.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Bears Butt said:


> GoofyElk, thanks for the post. That was all I could find as well. I've emailed the DWR about the proposed changes and I'll let this forum know what (if anything) I find out. It sure doesn't make any sence to me that we can go to the RAC's and voice our concerns about the muzzy hunt being sandwiched between split rifle deer seasons and it remains as it is in that calendar of seasons. I'm hoping beyond hope that they just haven't made the changes in that calendar.


I received word months ago that the Muzzy Deer hunt would not change from where it is now. Several rac members said they would vote it down and it wouldnt pass. I sure hope they were right. I think the only changes we will see is a split Rifle hunt, and a rearrangement of weapons during the LE elk.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

Nortah, when you say "won't change from where it is now", do you mean it won't change from the season we have had the past few years, or do you mean it won't change from where it is proposed in the calendar (between the two general rifle seasons)???


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I received word months ago that the Muzzy Deer hunt would not change from where it is now. Several rac members said they would vote it down and it wouldnt pass. I sure hope they were right. I think the only changes we will see is a split Rifle hunt, and a rearrangement of weapons during the LE elk.


Sometimes it doesn't matter how the RAC members vote. The only thing that matters is how the Wildlife Board votes, and I have seen them ignore what RAC members have said.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Bears Butt said:


> Nortah, when you say "won't change from where it is now", do you mean it won't change from the season we have had the past few years, or do you mean it won't change from where it is proposed in the calendar (between the two general rifle seasons)???


Sorry I wasnt clear... When these proposals came out a few months ago we sent out lots of emails and attended RACs. Here is just one of the many emails I got back.



> At the Board meeting on December 3rd, it was agreed to move the ML hunt ahead of the AW hunts. This should address your concern & those of a number of others who had made input on the same topic.


Ernie Perkins, Vice Chair
Northern Region
3087 Maxine Drive, Layton, UT 84040-7659
E-mail: [email protected]


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

GREAT! But like Coyoteslayer said, RAC is RAC and the Wildlife Board makes the last decision. So, it looks like I can sleep a little better knowing that at least the RAC is proposing the muzz hunt be ahead of the gen rifle seasons. Thanks for the info.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

I shared this email because Ernie is VICE CHAIR of the WILDLIFE BOARD!!! Not a RAC member. Seems like a good guy too.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Bears Butt said:


> Hogan, where are you getting this info? I have not heard of them wanting to split up the muzzy hunt like that. If it's true, I'm in for the late hunt.


This is for elk not deer, but still a great idea imo. The more advantages smoke poles and archers get the better for ALL.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Nor-tah said:


> I shared this email because Ernie is VICE CHAIR of the WILDLIFE BOARD!!! Not a RAC member. Seems like a good guy too.


are you serious

the political problem in Utah is not the rac's process If it was actually followed it could do just fine. The problems are the wildlife board and special interest groups.

So just like we need to flush the politicians in our congress we need to flush the wildlife board.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

So do you think he was lying to me in this personal email?? I am not saying the system isnt flawed. I think it is. But this is info straight from the horses mouth.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Nor-tah said:


> So do you think he was lying to me in this personal email?? I am not saying the system isnt flawed. I think it is. But this is info straight from the horses mouth.


Ernie Perkins is an honest and honorable person, something that is very scare on the Wildlife Board. I believe Ernie at his word, but I do NOT trust the rest of the Board at their word. Add in the several months of lobbying that will take place and all bets are off on where they will stand come crunch time.

I am curious why it is 'okay' for archers to have to hunt deer/elk at the same time, by it would be 'unfair' for the rifle/muzzy hunters to do likewise? :?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Nor-tah said:


> So do you think he was lying to me in this personal email?? I am not saying the system isnt flawed. I think it is. But this is info straight from the horses mouth.


no I dont think he lied to you. I have just seen so much crap associated with the board it makes me not trust anything the board does.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Well i'll try to hold him and all others accountable for their words. I'll hope to see all you guys at the RACs.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> one thing for sure is these season dates and changes will not happen. It is all smoke and mirrors. The real proposal is being concocted by sfw and the wildlifeboard right now behind closed doors and will be sprung on us at the end so no one can argue the problems or benefits with it.
> 
> It could include LE deer state wide
> drastic cuts in deer tags across the board
> ...


Bottom line I think this statement will be closest to the actual scenerio. Not exact maybe not one thing correct, but still be the closest, the special interest groups and WB throw things out for a smoke screen, so that the bottom line is more acceptable to the common folk. Kind of like going to a restraunt, opening the menu to find the cheeseburger is 180.00!!!!! That way the porterhouse that is listed @ 80.00 does not seem so unreasonable. They have been doing it for years now. Inching toward thier next great idea on how to better their group and their group only. Many gguys join for the right reasons but would quit if they could see what was going on behind the scenes and who really was making the descisions.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm a trusting guy and I sure hope they vote to put the muzz hunt ahead of the two rifle hunts. Aren't we talking about a 5 year plan here? The WB members we have is what we have and I for one am trusting them to make the best decision for the majority.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Bears Butt said:


> I'm a trusting guy and I sure hope they vote to put the muzz hunt ahead of the two rifle hunts. Aren't we talking about a 5 year plan here? The WB members we have is what we have and I for one am trusting them to make the best decision for the majority.


then get ready to get hosed. get ready to hunt deer once in your life just like le elk.

one thing for sure is the wildlife board and sfw don't give a rip about the majority. big changes are coming and 90% will not like them.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

_/O It's all bull****....


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> one thing for sure is these season dates and changes will not happen. It is all smoke and mirrors. The real proposal is being concocted by sfw and the wildlifeboard right now behind closed doors and will be sprung on us at the end so no one can argue the problems or benefits with it.
> 
> It could include LE deer state wide
> drastic cuts in deer tags across the board
> ...


You forgot to mention the induction of 25,0000 whitetails to supplement Utah's declining mulie numbers.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> Nor-tah said:
> 
> 
> > So do you think he was lying to me in this personal email?? I am not saying the system isnt flawed. I think it is. But this is info straight from the horses mouth.
> ...


Pro
the reason I don't favor the muzzle loader deer and elk hunt at the same time is because, I like to hunt deer and elk in different units. if the muzzle loader deer hunt and elk hunts where open to state wide I might change my mind.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

I don't like the muzzy being between the 2 rifle. Also isn't the purpose of the split in the rifle hunt to lower the amount of hunters in the field? Wouldn't combining the rifle deer and rifle elk put even more hunters in the field than just all the rifle deer hunters alone? I know they will be chasing different animals but there would still be that many people trying to use the land at the same time, probably alot more considering how many people rifle elk hunt. I'm all for the dates for the LE archery elk hunt though! <<--O/


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

This is my 3rd attempt to try and post on this thead, don't know what is going on. But, my take is that I guess I have to get my ky jelly out, cuz I think the board is going to do what is right by me. I'm in it for the fun of the outing. The hunt and camping with friends and family. I don't care about a 300 class bull or a 200 class buck....ya it would be nice, but....
I'll pay my fees for the license before the application and accept the fact that I don't draw my tag, but I still think the DWR is doing a dang good job at trying to manage all of the various special interest groups INCLUDING OURS to the best of their abilities. Back to the original thread "whats your thoughts on the proposed 2100 changes", I'm really only interested in the muzz hunt either being before or after the two split general rifle seasons. Being sandwiched in between would be a total disaster for the muzz hunters.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Bears Butt, as the adage goes; "Expect the worst and hope for the best." I truly hope your faith is rewarded, but having dealt numerous times with the Wildlife Board I am deeply skeptical of the Board considering the general masses in their decision making process.


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## Patman (Apr 16, 2008)

Leave the muzzy hunt where it is, have 2 rifle seasons for deer and throw in all those smaller units they talked about a few years back to better manager the deer population. Also get the rifle hunt out of the rut right after I draw (jk). But politicians being as they are I have found that KY waning sensations is a better product especially on the mountain on a cold night.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

All this talk about the board members made me wonder who these people are, well straight from http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/wb-members.php
Utah Wildlife Board members:
Jake Albrecht-Southern Region-Glenwood (between Monroe and Salina)
Del Brady-Northeastern Region-Vernal
Bill Fenimore-Northern Region-Farmington
Tom Hatch-Southern Region-Panguitch
Keele Johnson-Southeastern Region-Blanding
Jim Karpowitz-Division Director
Ernie Perkins-Northern Region-Layton
Rick Woodard-Central Region-Provo

This explained a lot to me, first of all, why are there two in the Southern region with the same title as a standard member? That would explain the loud mouth rifle hunters in the southern region seem to have so much voice. It seems odd to have 3 of the 8 members from the most rural corner of the state to me. Not to mention the obvious issue, of only one member having any specific voice representing the biologists (is that fair to say of Jim?). I don't know that it would be better to have all or even more of the members to be on the DWR payroll, but there should certainly be a louder voice of those who have a clue IMHO.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Huge,,Probably is "fair to say" about the one bio voice from Jim,,1st met him in 1990.

And bearsbutt,,I did find in the Dec 3 board meeting text were the muzzy dates were
discussed and recommended to be addressed by the deer committee..

I do like the new dates a lot,,,,,and totally agree opening dates on the same calender
day every year.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> All this talk about the board members made me wonder who these people are, well straight from http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/wb-members.php
> Utah Wildlife Board members:
> Jake Albrecht-Southern Region-Glenwood (between Monroe and Salina)
> Del Brady-Northeastern Region-Vernal
> ...


Sadly, Jim K has only an advisory role on the Board. He can't even vote on anything. Also, you may want to google both Tom Hatch and Keele Johnson to get a better background on them and why/how they were appointed to the Board. :evil:


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I like the LE ELK dates for the archery hunts.spilting the deer hunt is not a bad idea.But the 2nd deer hunt will be one tuff bugger.Starting the hunts on the same day every year Im not a big fan of that. But then again that might not be a bad idea. Just mean more time off of work and more hunting time.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> Sadly, Jim K has only an advisory role on the Board. He can't even vote on anything. Also, you may want to google both Tom Hatch and Keele Johnson to get a better background on them and why/how they were appointed to the Board. :evil:


Are the WB members paid or is it a volunteer position? What are the terms of their service? Do they have to meet certain criteria to serve? I think it's pointless and stupid to appoint someone to a position if they have no knowledge/experience on the subject be it practical or theoretical.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

The WB board members..........mmmmmmmmm........do you know when you are out hunting and you run into sheep and or cattle? If you were to research and found out who owned them, it would be a WB member.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

They have no interest in wildlife, they want less wildlife so there is more feed for their cattle and sheep.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

swbuckmaster said:


> one thing for sure is these season dates and changes will not happen. It is all smoke and mirrors. The real proposal is being concocted by sfw and the wildlifeboard right now behind closed doors and will be sprung on us at the end so no one can argue the problems or benefits with it.


I disagree, I think every proposal will go through and be passed (Except for maybe a couple like the muzzy deer season). They have thought about this for a long time and they have the proposals right where they want them. I don't think SFW or the Wildlife board or anyone is going to drastically change the proposlas and screw us all at the last minute.

I actually like the changes other than the muzzy deer hunt. I hope they go through.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here are some very interesting quotes from the December 3rd board meeting
concerning the 2011 changes......

Public Comment
Ben Lowder – UBA said they are excited about this proposal. They are happy with the hard starting date. They think this will help with the crowding issue and split rifle hunts distribute more hunters throughout the season. The combined deer and elk hunts across all weapon types is great.

Dave Woodhouse, SFW said they are excited about the options presented by the Division. With the deer hunt being split, it will help with overcrowding. The overall length of the hunts is shortened and they support that. They commend the Division and Board for looking at this.

Wade Heaton, Friends of Paunsaugunt, a working group that has been together for six years. They support the idea of starting with a specific date for the general hunt, as well as concept of the split seasons. They like the idea of smaller units. This is a great time to shift to smaller unit management strategy.

Lance Roberts from Monroe is here representing himself, several people in the audience and a lot of concerned citizens in the Southern and Southeastern regions. He thanked the Board for allowing this presentation. We are not a special interest group. We are concerned for the health of Utah’s mule deer population, particularly in Southern and Southeastern region. The purpose of our presentation is to establish mule deer management for a healthy viable herd. They would like the Wildlife Board to consider changing to smaller mule deer management units areas in Southern and Southeastern regions. He showed maps suggesting boundaries and groupings of units. This request is consistent with the neighboring states. We support the reality that the DWR mustmaintain their current revenue and changes must guarantee equal revenue. Buck/doe ratios are directly correlated with fawn/doe ratios.
Since the DWR is addressing changing season dates, this is an ideal time for the Board to consider this. The deer herds in Utah are unhealthy and will continue to decline if appropriate action is not taken. We believe that next to pending DWR budget reductions, the health of the deer herds is one of the most important issues facing our game management in Utah.
Mr. Roberts said that smaller units will provide more management flexibility in dealing with habitat, disease, depredation, buck/doe ratios, landowner needs, highways, harvest anomalies. Since the 60’s, rifles and technology have advanced, greater access, websites and magazines, improved camping systems, occupational hunters, economic pressures and DWR complexities.
Smaller units would improve opportunity to partner with other wildlife organizations.
They have support from various wildlife organizations, local CWMU, representatives,
and local citizens. They would like to establish small management units in southern and southeastern regions

Board DiscussionDirector Karpowitz asked about bringing it to the Board as an informational in August. We are stacking up a lot of change with the proposed season structure. Adding limited entry by unit on top of it is an enormous amount of change. His preference is to do the season structure in 2011 and examine unit by unit for 2012. In the interim, there will be ample opportunity to work on permit numbers. The Board decided on 2011 to give the season structure two full years of public comment. We probably ought to do the same for limited entry by unit. It could be done in one year and if the Board acted in August they could get the programming done in time. In summary, what I am hearing from the Board in regards to the season structure, they would like to reduce rifle hunt length, allow youth to hunt both hunts, and flip flop muzzleloader with the early rifle hunt. These are all very do able. They can bring a couple of options and throw those out to public in a survey.
Mr. Hatch said the vast majority of sportsmen that he has talked to are in favor of a five-day hunt, especially in Southern and Southeast regions. He would ask with the Board for the Division to do this for the 2011 hunt structure.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's a few more from the WB meeting text,,,,I think it's pretty clear were we are
heading over the next couple of years..........


The following motion was made by Jake Albrecht, seconded by Bill Fenimore and passed unanimously.
MOTION: I move that we take the Unit-by-Unit proposal and make it an action log item. We will send it to the mule deer committee, asking them to make recommendations on how to implement it.

Mr. Albrecht said his comment is go back to unit-by-unit and that is what he is hearing statewide. When it goes back to the mule deer committee, they need to come back with a solution that would support unit-by-unit.

Director Karpowitz said in regard to hunt season structure: Come back with a proposal to reduce rifle deer hunt length, Youth hunt both seasons, late and early, move muzzleloader to early October, smaller units to go back to deer committee and both issues to come back to the Board in August.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

I especially like the youth aspect of these proposals. That means the youth could hunt the muzz hunt and both aw deer hunts and give them the entire month of October to try and get it done! YA! For the muzz being pushed to the front of the two rifle hunts!

Looks like I can put away the KY jelly!


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Would the Dedicated Hunters be able to hunt both rifle hunts or pick one? I am pretty sure I've ready every post and didn't see this discussed.

Thanks


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## Amy (Jan 22, 2009)

We just finished up an explanatory Web page about the proposed hunting changes for 2011. Feel free to check it out and provide feedback on the proposals.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

Looking through the calendar it doesn't look too bad to me. That being said, being a muzzleloader hunter who is planning on putting in for a LE elk next year (drew the Crawfords tag this year), I would really hate to only have 3 days of a "head start" before rifle hunters move in. It's hard enough to get a nice bull, LE or not... add to that the disadvantage of hunting with a primitive weapon. On top of that, I would suspect that even if the rifle hunters can't hunt those 3 days, I would expect they'd be up there scouting, so it's really taking away from the "advantage" of having that "head start" in my opinion


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Amy said:


> We just finished up an explanatory Web page about the proposed hunting changes for 2011. Feel free to check it out and provide feedback on the proposals.


Amy, 
You do a great job at keeping us lowely hunters informed! Thanks a lot for taking the time to do that. Looks like they are moving the ML dated to the first of October and still spliting up the Rifle. Looks good to me. I also dont love the LE ML Elk dates. I'll go leave my comment about that.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I guess the changes do not look that bad. Spliting the seasons might be a good thing actually. Less hunters afield per season should contribute to a better success rate. If you know what you are doing. I just wish each season was 9 days. As that affords 2 weekends to each group of hunters. The one thing I do see as a bad thing is hunting elk and deer at the same time. Don't the DWR folks know deer and elk are not typiclly in the same area at the same time.

As far as the LE hunts go....good call! We should have a higher success rate as well. The bad thing is that elk are still managed by age objectives and not by bull/cow ratios. 

I am not a muzzy hunter so I may not sound simpathetic but 3 or 4 days for an LE hunt should be plenty.. especially during the rut. If you hold out for a 400+ bull it may not be enough but come on... 350+ bulls should be plentiful. Am I wrong on this? What happened to all those comments I have read on here about opportunity being more important than quality?

Lastly....hard dates on the opener? This should also reduce the amount of preasure on the anumals. Not everyone can take Tuesday off for the opener so hunters will trickle in the closer the weekend gets. The downside to this is that trucks will be coming in and out of the country non stop and that could put preasure on the animals. I also see evening road hunting increasing during the weekdays by some percentage.

Am I wrong in thinking that these changes may not be all that bad? Am I among the few or the majority?


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

Thanks for this Amy! As far as the muzz LE Elk season having a 3 day advantage I suppose it at least gives the muzz guys a little time alone (I'll take a 300 bull). What I'm going to propose, since they are giving us the opportunity here, is to separate muzz LE elk units from the AW LE Elk units. I don't like to wear Blaze Orange!!!  
The other thing I see wrong is all of the Muzz LE Deer hunts are held during the same time line. Areas like the Crawfords and the Deloris Triangle need to have their own dates late in November. During early October there aren't any deer worth a LE tag in those areas.

Other than those changes I'm OK with this proposal. I especially like the same date openers. And I wish the state would change the law and allow Sunday opening days. As for weekend hunters, well, some years you would see two weekends and some years you would not. That would definetely be a problem for the family hunting together, especially the school kids being in the camp.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Amy,,,Thanks much for the link.....
It's really COOOOL to see you here on the forum with the great info you provide..  

MadH,,,I'm with ya ,,I really like almost everything being proposed..

And BB,,,They legalized camo orange last year,,At Least you don't have to wear that
"blazed" junk any more.. 8)


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

GoofyElk wrote:


> And BB,,,They legalized camo orange last year,,At Least you don't have to wear that
> "blazed" junk any more..


Hey Goofy Elk, It just doesn't match my eyes!  And it looks Gay (sorry Tex-O-Bob, I beat you to it) :wink:


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

MadHunter said:


> .......I am not a muzzy hunter so I may not sound simpathetic but 3 or 4 days for an LE hunt should be plenty.. especially during the rut. If you hold out for a 400+ bull it may not be enough but come on... 350+ bulls should be plentiful. Am I wrong on this? What happened to all those comments I have read on here about opportunity being more important than quality?


So you don't see a problem with guy a spenting his hard earned points for a three day hunt? :roll:

How come there is only a late Muzz elk hunt in just the any bull areas?

I also find it interesting that after all the years of complaining of when the GS rifle hunt started, that after all is said and done guess what? It still starts like it always did. But I do like the splitting of the GS rifle deer.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> So you don't see a problem with guy a spenting his hard earned points for a three day hunt?
> 
> If there is a ML/Rifle hunt the following week then I bet some ML guys will just bring their rifles so they aren't at a disadvantage.
> 
> ...


I kind of like the idea too but it's funny we have a 5 day deer hunt statewide this year and next year will be a 14 day rifle hunt between two seasons. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

I like the way the archery hunts are set up. If i go back to rifle or muzzy, I think the changes can be good.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

coyoteslayer said:


> > So you don't see a problem with guy a spenting his hard earned points for a three day hunt?
> >
> > If there is a ML/Rifle hunt the following week then I bet some ML guys will just bring their rifles so they aren't at a disadvantage. *Their permit will be for a muzz hunt, not for a Rifle (GS)*
> >
> ...


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > > So you don't see a problem with guy a spenting his hard earned points for a three day hunt?
> ...


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

To much to think about.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Wait CS, so you are saying that you think you can draw a LE ML Elk tag and hunt three days with your ML then pick up a 7mm?? :lol: :lol: That would be nice...

I am in the situation Huntoholic is is saying.... I have 10 elk points.. Not enough to draw the rifle but enough for the ML. If this passes I dont know what I will do. :| 10 years is a long time and a lot of points to waste. This is yet again a screw over job for the ML dudes like me.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Wait CS, so you are saying that you think you can draw a LE ML Elk tag and hunt three days with your ML then pick up a 7mm?? :lol: :lol: That would be nice...
> 
> I'm saying that people who draw a ML elk tag will bring a rifle during the rifle elk hunt because some are dishonest and there isn't a CO to check everyone.
> 
> ...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I took a little time and did my survey on the link Amy provided and sent E-mails
out to RAC and Board members expressing my opinion on the upcoming changes....

I would love to see every one on this forum do the same....
This is the perfect opportunity to express your thoughts and and be involved in the process..

Thanks.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Amy said:


> We just finished up an explanatory Web page about the proposed hunting changes for 2011. Feel free to check it out and provide feedback on the proposals.


I did the little feedback thing and the only thing I wish you guys would have gave a spot where you can write. What you didn't like about some of the stuff.Like the muzzy le hunt.I don't think that a good idea having the muzzy and the rifle hunt going on at the same time.Some dud going to be putting the sneak on a big bull with his muzz and then some guy with a rifle is going to shoot it from 400 yards away.I dont think that safe and then.Like said before some guys will pull a rifle out and use it instead of there muzzloader.


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

I'm not a Muzzlloader hunter but the LE elk muzzy dates stink here's why. Lets say a muzzy hunter burns 12 points for his tag he spends 3 days chasing elk for whatever reason does not get his bull in three days. On the fourth day there are four times the hunters he's had to hunt with the three previous days. He overcomes the crowding and finds a herd with his dream bull from a ridge 400 yards away. He plans his stalk to get within his 100 to 150 yard muzzy range and off he goes. He plays the wind right the sun is at his back everything is right, it takes his 2 hours to close to within 200 yards and the bull is moving his way all he needs to do is wait for him to move 50 more yards. CRACK a rifle hunter shoots the bull from where the muzzy guy started his stalk. THE LE MUZZY ELK DATES SUCK! Now if the muzzy guy has the option to use a rifle after 3 days that would be fair in my opinion.


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

dkhntrdstn
We must have been typing the same thing at the same time great minds think alike.


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## bigbuckhunter64 (May 6, 2008)

Yea why not overlap the muzzy and the archery hunts in the LE elk? At least that way everybody has to be in close range to get the job done, it might suck for the archery guys but it would be a little more fair for the muzzy guys.


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## bowhunter3 (Oct 18, 2007)

bigbuckhunter64 said:


> Yea why not overlap the muzzy and the archery hunts in the LE elk? At least that way everybody has to be in close range to get the job done, it might suck for the archery guys but it would be a little more fair for the muzzy guys.


 :roll:


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

bowhunter3 said:


> bigbuckhunter64 said:
> 
> 
> > Yea why not overlap the muzzy and the archery hunts in the LE elk? At least that way everybody has to be in close range to get the job done, it might suck for the archery guys but it would be a little more fair for the muzzy guys.
> ...


 :roll: :roll:


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

I don't bow hunt anymore, but if they'd done the same thing with the LE bow that they've done with the Muzz, I'd have the same issue with it.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Huntoholic said:


> So you don't see a problem with guy a spenting his hard earned points for a three day hunt? :roll:
> 
> How come there is only a late Muzz elk hunt in just the any bull areas?
> 
> I also find it interesting that after all the years of complaining of when the GS rifle hunt started, that after all is said and done guess what? It still starts like it always did. But I do like the splitting of the GS rifle deer.


I do see a problem with it. it puts you guys at a huge disadvantage. Not to mention at a huge safety risk. I didn't intend on coming off as unsympathetic. I got a friend that is a hard core muzzy hunter and he has 10 points I think. I'd hate to see them wasted. I am just thinking that at some point someone is going to get the short (shortest) end of the stick and in this case it looks like muzzy hunters. I hope you get more days and I hope you all get big @$$ bulls!

Now here is another question...... Why not push the season dates back to where they don't overlap? Is pushing the hunts into the 1st week of november really that bad?


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

Ya know guys, there have been some very good points made about all of this, but if you don't either attend a RAC and make your points "well understood", you are just blowing steam. If you can't attend a RAC meeting, then at least send an email with your concerns and suggestions, to your regional lead guy, like I did and Goofy Elk did. Keep one thing in mind, they can't read your mind, so be very clear with your concerns, but then offer some alternative suggestions to what is being proposed.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

At first look I see a few things I would like to see tweaked on the LE elk dates:
1)Get rid of the one day gap between LE archery and LE Muzz.
2)Keep the LE early rifle to a nine day hunt instead of increasing it to ten days.
3)After doing #1 and #2 move the Le early rifle back two days, opening on Monday the 26th.
4)Shorten the LE muzzy to a 10 day hunt as opposed to a 12 day hunt.

Doing them will give the LE muzzy hunters 6 days with out other LE elk hunters in the field. Then there would only be a 4 day overlap between the LE muzzy and LE early rifle. That would also give the LE early rifle 4 days w/o the LE muzzy hunters.

I am troubled and confused by the 'logic' of the DWR statement:



> Proposal: Consolidate most limited-entry elk hunts to September
> 
> If the Wildlife Board approves this proposal, most limited-entry elk hunts will occur in September 2011. That's when the elk are at the peak of their breeding season (also known as the rut). During the rut, elk are less wary because they're focused on breeding. That makes it easier for hunters to harvest them.
> Advantages
> ...


I put in bold the confusing part. Right now LE elk hunts AVERAGE well over 70%, that includes the relatively low success rates of the archery hunt. How much higher does the success rate 'need' to be? At what point is it no longer hunting but merely killing? :?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> Right now LE elk hunts AVERAGE well over 70%, that includes the relatively low success rates of the archery hunt. How much higher does the success rate 'need' to be? At what point is it no longer hunting but merely killing? :?


I guess they figure that if you waited 20 years for an LE tag you are ENTITLED to kill a bull as opposed to getting the "CHANCE" to hunt one. Entitlement: One of the major reasons this country is ruining itself...everyone thinks they are entitled to something.

Good job on looking at the dates. I just didn't take the time to look at them and figure out the date rearrangements like you did.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> At first look I see a few things I would like to see tweaked on the LE elk dates:
> 1)Get rid of the one day gap between LE archery and LE Muzz.
> 2)Keep the LE early rifle to a nine day hunt instead of increasing it to ten days.
> 3)After doing #1 and #2 move the Le early rifle back two days, opening on Monday the 26th.
> ...


See this makes sense. Pro- is there a way to propose this? I really beleive that they think the muzzy guys will shut up and take it. Its getting old. I just fired off a bunch of emails. I'll see you guys at the RAC hopefully.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Nor-tah said:


> See this makes sense. Pro- is there a way to propose this?


By saying it makes sense you have sentenced it to die a quick death. :wink: This can be proposed by any person/group. I suggest this be brought up for further discussion at: http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=320110936606

The more unified people get behind/against something the better the odds of the Board at least giving notice to it.


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