# Wounded animals



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Seems during the rifle hunt I've seen some bad shots and heard too many wounded deer stories, so I just have to ask, honestly what percentage of people do you think wound deer and move on until they actually kill one?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

I don't have a clue.

I recently received a survey from the DWR about the general any bull hunt. It asked me if I had wounded any animals I wasn't able to retrieve - and if so, how many. I was shocked that the drop-down menu allowed me to select any number from 1-20. I wasn't quite sure what to think of that.

One of my family members wounded an elk on an LE hunt and opted to continue hunting after he lost its trail. Other than that, everyone I hunt with typically searches exhaustively for a wounded animal and calls it a season if they can't find it. So far I've been fortunate to never lose a wounded animal, but that's what I think I'd do as well.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I actually think that it is quite a few. 

There are a lot of hunters out there that think that if the animal doesn't drop at the shot then they either missed him or that he'll live. One year I was walking through a patch of aspens when I came upon a blood trail which I followed to a dead deer. Knowing that I hadn't shot it and that there were a couple of hunters sitting above where I was I went up to them and asked them if they had taken a shot at a buck and they said that they had but it had ran off. I told them where it was located at and how to get to it. I am sure that when they found it that they were not happy with the location that it was at and that they had a lot of work coming to get it out. 
Another year I watched as some road hunters pulled up and took a couple of shots at a buck that I was watching and then they drove off. I went down and found the buck dead right where they had been shooting at him. I had my buck that year without firing a shot.


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## toymanator (Dec 29, 2010)

This topic has actually been on my mind all day today. I have been following a few bucks around for most of the hunt, last night I was pretty close to pulling the trigger on one of them. It was getting dark and what I consider past shooting hours, he was on the tail of a ridge. Had I shot him it would have been difficult to find where he went after the shot. I decided to call it a night and come back in the morning. Ten minutes later on my hike down I heard a shot, it was only one shot and was a ridge away. I was having a difficult time navigating down the mountain in the dark and thought "why on earth would someone take a shot now?" 

This morning as I was making my way up the mountain I glassed a nice buck I had been eyeing for a few weeks. He was half way up a face of the mountain in front of me. As I started to get excited about making the stalk I jumped a group of deer to my right. In the group of deer was 4 does and 2 bucks. Both of the bucks were smaller and injured. One of them was noticeably only walking on three legs. 

What do you do? I could have turned a blind eye to the suffering animals and maintained course to the buck I have had my eye on for some time. After all I wasn't the one who wounded that animal, it's someone elses problem. My tag is reserved for one of the bucks that I have been scouting for months. If I shoot one of these bucks my tag will be filled and my hunt is over. I have been looking forward to, and worked hard on this hunt for months. I have spent over 30 days on the unit this year, hours at the gun range, etc etc. And now I stumbled upon a buck that someone else wounded and didn't retrieve. This is a buck that I normally wouldn't give a second look at, real young looking and not a lot of meat to him. A lot of the meat was already damaged after putting him down what would I gain from this hunt? Both of the bucks I saw this morning probably wouldn't make it to winter. 

I then thought about what the purpose of a deer tag is. It isn't my right to harvest the biggest buck on the mountain. Or the one that I think I "deserve" so I decided to take the buck that was injured the most, and call it a year on the general rifle hunt. But what about the other buck that was injured? Will someone else take him? 

As I was field dressing the deer, I wondered what it would be like if we were required to take an ethics course online before receiving our tags. Would the hunt be a little different? This would put a lot more accountability on the hunters. Would we be in the mess with the Governors tag and the Nebo sheep poaching debacle if both the tag holder and the outfitter were required to watch a video and be accountable to knowing what was in the video before the hunt? 

On another note and I hate to derail this thread. Opening morning, I came across a guy and his son. They had harvested a nice 4x4 buck 27" wide, I congratulated the kid on a nice first buck. He replied that his dad (who didn't have a tag) was the one who shot him, he shot three times and missed all three times. His dad then grabbed the gun from his son and said "we aren't letting this big one get away" I looked at him not wanting to cause a stir and said "that's too bad you didn't hit him, next year you will have to get yourself one" His dad jumped in, "oh he is a good shot, I think he just had some nerves and after he warmed up the barrel on this old gun I was able to put the deer down" Obviously this dad missed the boat on his kids first hunting trip. I don't know all the details of how things played out, but would it have been beneficial if both the dad and the son had watched a short video after successfully drawing out a tag? The video would be a review of hunters safety, ethics, and details about the specific hunt. This all could be covered in under ten minutes and be required before the tag is mailed. Every year we have to pass a course to shed hunt or shoot coyotes. (where the money is) But for the other tags and hunting opportunities it is on our heads to remember what we learned in hunters safety years ago and to read the guide book each year. This turned into a rant and I apologize for the ridiculously poor grammar, this subject is obviously fresh on my mind and relevant.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Toymanator - awesome post man!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

toymanator said:


> As I was field dressing the deer, I wondered what it would be like if we were required to take an ethics course online before receiving our tags. Would the hunt be a little different? This would put a lot more accountability on the hunters. Would we be in the mess with the Governors tag and the Nebo sheep poaching debacle if both the tag holder and the outfitter were required to watch a video and be accountable to knowing what was in the video before the hunt?
> 
> On another note and I hate to derail this thread. Opening morning, I came across a guy and his son. They had harvested a nice 4x4 buck 27" wide, I congratulated the kid on a nice first buck. He replied that his dad (who didn't have a tag) was the one who shot him, he shot three times and missed all three times. His dad then grabbed the gun from his son and said "we aren't letting this big one get away" I looked at him not wanting to cause a stir and said "that's too bad you didn't hit him, next year you will have to get yourself one" His dad jumped in, "oh he is a good shot, I think he just had some nerves and after he warmed up the barrel on this old gun I was able to put the deer down" Obviously this dad missed the boat on his kids first hunting trip. I don't know all the details of how things played out, but would it have been beneficial if both the dad and the son had watched a short video after successfully drawing out a tag? The video would be a review of hunters safety, ethics, and details about the specific hunt. This all could be covered in under ten minutes and be required before the tag is mailed. Every year we have to pass a course to shed hunt or shoot coyotes. (where the money is) But for the other tags and hunting opportunities it is on our heads to remember what we learned in hunters safety years ago and to read the guide book each year. This turned into a rant and I apologize for the ridiculously poor grammar, this subject is obviously fresh on my mind and relevant.


I don't think an ethics course would do anything for stupid people. I think it's more of a common sense thing, and you either have it or you don't. You can't teach it and it can't be learned.

I watched a young girl shoot at and hit a 3 point opening day. I watched the buck walk off slowly. The girl and her guardian made no attempt to locate the buck. I told them the deer was hit and I had watched it get shot through my binoculars. They agreed and said yes they know she hit the deer. I was like WTF then why don't you go find it? We will look for it tomorrow when we come back. Uh, there's still plenty of light and when that runs out they make flashlights. No way in hell would I have left without making an honest attempt at finding it. It really pi$$ed me off.:x


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

A understanding and respect for the animals being hunted and a lot of these issues would be solved. The animal that you are in pursuit of has survived extreme conditions and who knows how many attempts from predators. For some a$$hole to take a most likely unethical shot and not try to recover or even look really pisses me off. that animal does not deserve to die that way. I love hunting but I always have this issue in the back of my head and its really a shame people can't use more common sense. I understand accidents will happen but Most are preventable. A couple years ago opening morning of the rifle hunt we were glassing a canyon we were familiar with and found around ten bucks in the bottom. We watched them for a minute and made a plan to stalk when they all took off running. A couple guys on horses came over the ridge and by this time the deer were a good 500+ yards away from them and about 200 from us. We set up for a shot in case they stopped running when we see the guy jump off his horse kneel down and proceeded to lob 5-6 bullets at a running group of deer with some does. he than came and rode right past us to the area they shot to "check" for blood however he failed to ever get off the horse. I really wanted a piece of that guy.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I've been pondering this issue since the bow hunt. It seemed like about 1/4 of the people I spoke to had hit one and not recovered it, during the muzzleloader only 2 people talked to hit one and then shot a second one once they couldn't find it. The rifle hunt has really brought my concerns on this full circle because it seems about 1/2 the people I've talked to or watched through a spotting scope have hit one and not recovered it, or as some above have said not taken the adequate time or effort to find it. I watched a video on Facebook of someone shooting a pretty nice 4 point walking straight away and they took 2 shots at him in that position and ended up shooting up in the butt and he went limping off and in the video they seemed proud to have taken the shot and hit him for some reason thinking it would be a lethal hit. A few other people have hit ones and they are still hunting. IMO you're tag is for 1 deer, and when you've hit a deer, that was your deer. Your tag is not for as many deer as you can hit until you kill one. Not one of the times people have told me they have hit a deer this year have they stopped hunting, and that's the part that bothers me the most. The animals we hunt deserve more, and hunting in general should not be tarnished by unethical shots and a large number of deer left wounded to suffer and waste.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

I suspect more deer are lost during the bow season than the rifle, but combined it must be around 25% although from the stories here sounds higher.

For archery the reason is probably taking longer shots than is wise. 30 yards is probably a safe distance. Any more and the hit is likely to be only a wound.

For rifles the reason is probably jerking the trigger and missing the lung/heart area.

Buck fever causes both of these.

If I saw a wounded animal and there was enough meat on his bones then I would shoot it and field dress it too. The problem with that of course is if the original hunter who shot it shows up he/she will want that deer back -- fine with me. Maybe I would want $2 for my cartridge though. I shoot expensive ammo.

I have successfully tracked all my animals. For archery this amounts to sitting down and listening after you release the arrow, to hear where the animal is headed. Normally I pull out my compass and set the azimuth on the direction of the sound, then after at least half an hour, I'll start walking slowly and quietly on that azimuth with an arrow knocked in case I need to make a second shot when I find it, and after first checking for a blood trail and marking it.

For rifle, my kills have always dropped on the spot, except for the one that was paralyzed from the midsection down. He was the only buck that required a second shot when I found him.

So I have been lucky.

If one got away from me then I would keep looking. That's why I bring a couple of LED flashlights.

It helps to bring surveyors tape to mark the blood trail too. That way it is easier to double back and start over.

I am guessing that most people are clueless about tracking, so they don't even try much.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Hunting isn't that glamorous. A few of the TV shows that I like show the pain that goes into losing an animal. I think it would be a decent thing to punch the tag after you hit and do not recover an animal, but I imagine it is easier said than done.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Hunters wound alot... but nowhere near as much as automobiles.


-DallanC


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

I might be a bit more optimistic than most of you guys. I think most of us who've been hunting for a number of years have known someone in our hunting party that have wounded and lost an animal. Honestly, I can remember very, very few animals lost by me or someone I hunt with.


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## GLP (Oct 13, 2016)

On opening day I came across a guy who shot a buck that already had a pretty bad graze shot on the underside of its neck from someone else.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

So if you look at the numbers. The division says 384000 deer on average. This means there are around 96000 bucks (25 bucks to 100 does), 88000 tags, this year the success rate could be 50%. That's 44,000 bucks killed, now add THIS poll numbers, at 10% wounded that's 9600, so hunters kill around 53,000 bucks. Which leaves 331000 deer with a buck to doe ratio of 14 bucks to every 100 does. So there is killed an extra 9600 bucks seems like a lot to me. Hopefully the fawn crop makes it through the winter to replace the bucks that have been killed. These aren't perfect numbers but it gives you an idea of how many deer are wounded. Also shows how 1 bad winter would also wipe out the numbers.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

If the wildlife biologists did their job right then the fawn crop will always replace the bucks and also add about 25% more doe's too.


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## toymanator (Dec 29, 2010)

CPAjeff said:


> Toymanator - awesome post man!


Of course the "CPA" likes the post about ethics... 

I don't want to give off the impression that I live in a glass house. I know first hand how difficult hunting is. I spent an hour and a half on Saturday tracking a blood trail with a friend. It wasn't the biggest buck that my friend has taken but he ranted and raved that he had never followed a blood trail before and it was one of the funnest hunts he has been on. We could have very easily given up, because at times it was frustrating.

A few years ago on the evening of opening morning I had a group helping me on the hunt. I shot at a buck and watched it go belly up right under a specific tree. We (all five of us) spent nearly 45 minutes looking all over where the tree was and could not find the deer. I was beyond frustrated and wondered whether I should continue hunting or not. I didn't know if the deer had just stumbled and I had imagined watching all four legs go in the air. We called it a night, I didn't hunt the rest of the week. The following Saturday on the last day of the hunt I hiked back up to that spot and was able to follow the scent to the buck I had shot. He had gone belly up and slid down the hill about ten feet from the tree, and wrapped himself around a different tree. We had looked all around where he had slid but for some reason we missed him that day. I have always felt bad that I wasted the meat from that deer.

About ten years ago I was with a group, we came around a group of trees and saw a buck about 50 yards away. The guy with the tag took the shot and the deer immediately dropped. We all hiked over to wear we saw him drop, the buck hadn't moved and was just laying there. When we got within five feet the buck jumped up and took off. We watched him run two ridges away, we followed the trail and never saw any signs of blood or that buck again.

The point is there are times when hunting is a mystery, that is one of the things that keeps me coming back. You think you understand an animal and then they throw something at you from left field. But I don't think that is what this thread is about. Last year two days after the rifle hunt was over I spent a day hiking in one of my favorite units. I found three bucks all with horns that didn't extend above the ears, these bucks were shot and left for dead. Each of these bucks had been there for days and were canyons away from each other, I don't think any of them were connected.

The "$25" we pay to be able to harvest a big game animal is a small price to pay for the privilege of hunting. It wouldn't hurt us all to show a little more respect to the animals we are hunting. It has always been a quandary to me how easy hunters safety was back in the day, it's as if they expect everyone to pass. My neighbor spent 15 years away from hunting, when he returned all they asked was for his number from when he passed the hunters safety as a kid. We send people into the mountains with weapons to shoot things, but we never ask them to re certify or be accountable for the majority of there actions in the hills. The last thing I would want is more regulation, but I think it is a positive thing to hold citizens more accountable for the rules already in place.


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## ceedub (Oct 25, 2016)

B/D ratios are post hunt. (Winter count) 

So theoretically the B/D ratio should be higher during the hunts.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Yes B/D ratios should be higher before the hunts


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Fear of the game wardens is the primary driving force for most people who are hunting. Respect for the game animal is a higher rule that hunters with real ethics possess.

Since I hunt for the meat I am not particularly impressed with a big rack of antlers. I have passed on shots on really big bucks in search of somewhat smaller ones. I prefer to leave the big racked bucks to breed more -- either this or for some other hunter who is going to mount it. I don't have a big house with a big den where I can hang a big rack. For me a 3x3 is perfect and I have shot my share of 2x3's too.

They taught us in my hunter safety class always to approach a downed buck with a chambered cartridge or a knocked arrow. Once I actually had to use it.

If the buck gets away, I would not say to refrain from hunting for another. You did not get meat, and it was probably no fault of yours. And if it is your fault then you probably don't know why.

It troubles me when people use relatively lite guns to chase big game. But that's just a pet peeve. Some people think they can hunt big game with 5.56x45 which I feel is ridiculous since that was originally a varmint round turned anti personnel.

Lack of practice shooting is another pet peeve.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

I would love to know the wound ratio of the big gun - long range crowd?


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I have a cousin who decided to come down and hunt the family property on the muzzleloader this year. He gut shot one buck (didn't find it), leg shot another (didn't find it), and finally killed his third. I wasn't around during the muzzleloader hunt this year. If it happens again in the future I'm going to be quite vocal about suggesting he go hunt elsewhere.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

OriginalOscar said:


> I would love to know the wound ratio of the big gun - long range crowd?


My personal observation this season was 3 one shot kills with weapons that may qualify under your "big gun - long range crowd". In fact in the last two years I haven't
witnessed any unrecovered animals.
With your statement I'm sure you have seen just the opposite. To each their own.
Every weapon has people taking shots that maybe they are not qualified to take or just plain end up being bad. If they follow up every shot and do due diligence trying to recover the animal I won't condemn anyone for an occasional unrecovered animal.


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

OriginalOscar said:


> I would love to know the wound ratio of the big gun - long range crowd?


op2: op2:


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

OriginalOscar said:


> I would love to know the wound ratio of the big gun - long range crowd?


Actually if they are doing it properly they are usually better prepared to not wound a animal and if they do then they usually do a follow up. Not like some who take a 100 yard shot and figure that since the animal didn't drop at the shot then they must of missed.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Maybe hunters need to be able to pass a shooting test like they do in Norway before they can hunt moose. They literally run a target down a wire, or roll a tire down a hill with a target on it and you have to hit it on the move to pass.


-DallanC


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

OriginalOscar said:


> I would love to know the wound ratio of the big gun - long range crowd?


I would think a clean miss is more likely.

There is a lot of drop and wind drift.


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## Bowhunter50 (Oct 14, 2014)

Yeah this has been on my mind as well. My brother in laws have wounded deer that they haven't recovered every year since I've been in the family. They think it's just part of hunting, which it is, but not at the rate they do it. Their approach to hunting is walk around and kick up deer then shoot at them as they run away. To each their own...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

DallanC said:


> Maybe hunters need to be able to pass a shooting test like they do in Norway before they can hunt moose. They literally run a target down a wire, or roll a tire down a hill with a target on it and you have to hit it on the move to pass.
> 
> -DallanC


Huh. Wouldn't that just reinforce a behavior that we are critiquing, ie low success shots that lead to wounded wildlife. Everybody that has provided me advice encourages me to avoid taking shots at moving elk/deer (and longer than 200 yard shots).


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## ceedub (Oct 25, 2016)

Shooting test? 

Terrible idea! Where did you get that from? 

I think the herds will survive and thrive with out a shooting test. 

Hunting is one of the best justifications for owning a gun. We should look to increase hunting participation not discourage it.


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

Not Me - I'd have to find one close enough to shoot at first:?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Mavis13 said:


> Not Me - I'd have to find one close enough to shoot at first:?


I did but I missed. :llama:_O\\


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Well I just found out about a 5/4 that I was hoping would make it through just got wounded from a 913 yard shot right before dark, the guys couldn't find it, they said they will go look again in the morning. I guess we will see


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I posted a picture of my muzzy buck on MM and titled it "look what I found". It was meant as a joke and to raze ole jray a little but the sad thing is, I got about 5 PMs from guys thinking it might be a buck they wounded and lost. :shock:


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Just talked to a different group of hunters and believe they hit a nice 4/4 buck at 753 yards but they couldn't find it either. So the percentage may be higher than what I voted for.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Brookie said:


> Just talked to a different group of hunters and believe they hit a nice 4/4 buck at 753 yards but they couldn't find it either. So the percentage may be higher than what I voted for.


I heard of one LE 600+ yards at dark. Found two days later.


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## mlob1one (Aug 29, 2014)

I hit a buck at 200 yards with a 140gr Berger vld. He was behind 5 does and a couple yearlings. The cross wind at the bottom of the bowl was very strong but only whispering from my location. My shot looked to have been pushed about 3.5" & instantly the buck buckled and dropped. As I cycled another cartridge the does walked in front of the buck and prevented me from an immediately clear follow up shot. 

As I waited for a window, he begins to get up heavily favoring the front left leg (exit location of bullet). They all made their way back into aspens 15 yards from initial impact. 

That's when the does begin running around and the buck makes a couple attempts to follow. Within the aspens I don't have a clear shot so I slowly move laterally across the hill to ensure I keep him in view. I watch him pile up and wait for about 10 minutes. 

I begin making my way very slowly to close the gap to about 80 yards. Seeing the does run off gives me confidence that the buck is down. As I follow the blood trail aware that I'll probably need to put one more round in to finish him, I only see blood. 

I begin the slow process of working a grid and follow my marks to track him. Fast forward to five hours more that day with a friend, but not another drop of blood or a scent that the dog was able to pick up. 

The next day, with a few friends, a dog, fresh legs, another five hours, no precip, & still not a clue where he went and no additional blood. Searched a third day solo for another five hours. I called the search after about 38 man hours were expended searching for this resilient animal. This was the first animal I've ever not recovered and it stings on several levels. 

Obviously a quick and ethical kill is the primary objective and I'm confident now that he followed the does as they fled. Not recovering this buck also had me consider whether or not to pursue another animal. I concluded that if the buck was able to make it out of the first and at least two other bowls, he would probably survive until a predator culled him (hoping that the wound wouldn't get infected) or was shot etc. As I didn't involve any of my kids in this hunt, & still have two more with them this season, I've decided to not hunt for another. 

Several lessons learned. 

- Aim center of center & not heart when wind could be a factor especially with a lighter bullet. In The past I've shot >168gr exclusively. (The blood was from muscle not organs & it looks like I was just an inch in front of lungs.)
- For me (& several others) the HSM 140gr Berger vld is good for paper and smaller critters but expansion may be inconsistent. I've switched to Nosler Trophy BT's for now on the 7mm-08 and will test out the federal vital shock with Barnes bullets as my coyote rounds this winter to test expansion, consistency, & flight. 
-29 years of hunting and this was the first animal I hit that I didn't recover. 



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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

Lots of accounts of crazy long shots. Perhaps this occurs more often than I initially thought. We saw some people on the muzzleloader hunt blast at at least trotting deer at 175 yards (all looked like does to me as well) and then the next day shooting at deer at about 415 yards with their muzzleloaders. 

Shooting beyond your ability is the issue, and I really hope we are wrong on the percentages, but perhaps we aren't.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I published an article in 2010 on wounding rates that examined data from 2006, 2007 and 2008. I don't know how relevant 10 year old data is, but you folks might find it interesting.

In aggregate, wounding studies from across the country typically place rates for bowhunters around 50%. (For every animal harvested, another is wounded.) Bear in mind that most of these studies are focused on whitetail hunts and often funded by anti-hunting organizations.

Utah's numbers were much better. The following numbers are for the elk hunts, but the deer rates were comparable. UDWR reported that the wound rate for general season bowhunters was 3.39% - 3.83%. The rate for LE bowhunters was significantly higher at 19.2%.

The wound rate for the Any Weapon general season was 0.74% - 1.05%. LE rate was 3.38% - 4.35%

The wound rate for muzzle loader was 1.93% on the general season and 8.45% - 13.33% on the LE.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I'd like to see harvest reporting be mandatory for all species... general, limited entry, and OIAL. The question regarding animals wounded but not recovered is already on the current survey. 

If the DWR wants all the best info it can get it seems to me that we could give it to them pretty easily.


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

derekp1999 said:


> I'd like to see harvest reporting be mandatory for all species... general, limited entry, and OIAL. The question regarding animals wounded but not recovered is already on the current survey.
> 
> If the DWR wants all the best info it can get it seems to me that we could give it to them pretty easily.


+1000 it would be easy to implement. It would also give us much better data.


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## ceedub (Oct 25, 2016)

Why the obsession with trying to figure out and hold the human accountable for every single death it may have caused. But a complete ignorance of how many deer die from natural causes. Strikes me as anti hunting behavior. 

How many deer does the DWR figure cougar kill in Utah? I've never once seen a published estimate on the topic. But the DWR has repeatedly estimated how many deer may die from roadkill poaching or unrecovered game.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Well, its much easier to compile information from hunters who are required to work with the agencies for tags than design meaningful studies about wildlife. You can also directly control hunter behavior (as a group) but only indirectly impact predator affect on ungulates.

Its not antu-hunter its just logistically smarter and simpler. I would actually argue its a pro-hunter move to compile that data as an attempt to reduce waste as high numbers and not mitigating it would essily be framed (by anti-hunting stakeholders) as negligent on the part of DWR. The more we self-regulate the less chance for interference from organizations outside our community. The north american model's strength comes from that tradition of investment in conservation by hunters.


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

ceedub said:


> Why the obsession with trying to figure out and hold the human accountable for every single death it may have caused. But a complete ignorance of how many deer die from natural causes. Strikes me as anti hunting behavior.
> 
> How many deer does the DWR figure cougar kill in Utah? I've never once seen a published estimate on the topic. But the DWR has repeatedly estimated how many deer may die from roadkill poaching or unrecovered game.


Tell me ceedub, How do you suggest they figure how many deer die from natural causes and predation? It would be nearly impossible. How easy is it to figure out how many deer die from hunting, roadkill and poaching? Get the point? Why would we not want as accurate of information as possible. Especially when it's so readily available. After all hunter success numbers play a big role in tag numbers.


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## ceedub (Oct 25, 2016)

Why does it matter to know how many animals are poached while you have no idea or don't care to know how many deer are killed by predators? Predators kill by far more deer per year directly and indirectly then any other factor hands down. But yet we want to micro manage a herd determine it needs help and look to cut tags to accomplish our goal.

That's anti hunter


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## ceedub (Oct 25, 2016)

Take your household budget for example. Does it matter to know how much you spend on entertainment if you have no idea how much your healthcare costs? If you had to save money it woukd only be logical to examine all of your spending to determine the best plan of action. 

I say if we don't care how many deer die from cougar we shouldn't care how many deer die from roadkill or any other factor for that matter. 

Especially if history shows the hunter all ways ends up sucking hind tit.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

They do herd studies each year that allow them to design tag qoutas. Those #s inherently include winter kill and predation.

Plus, the deer-car collision information is critical as its a multi-billion dollar issue nationally. The 2011-12 season had an estimated 1.25 million deer-car collisions that cost upwards of $4 billion and results in roughly 200 human deaths a year. It matters from a cost, safety and protecting hunting standpoint.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

The dwr three year model is about as good a data as your going to get. It works!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

ceedub said:


> Why the obsession with trying to figure out and hold the human accountable for every single death it may have caused. But a complete ignorance of how many deer die from natural causes. Strikes me as anti hunting behavior.
> 
> How many deer does the DWR figure cougar kill in Utah? I've never once seen a published estimate on the topic. But the DWR has repeatedly estimated how many deer may die from roadkill poaching or unrecovered game.


Ignorance is denying science the opportunity to obtain a compete data set...


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

derekp1999 said:


> ceedub said:
> 
> 
> > Why the obsession with trying to figure out and hold the human accountable for every single death it may have caused. But a complete ignorance of how many deer die from natural causes. Strikes me as anti hunting behavior.
> ...


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Seems like I read that a cougar kills an estimated 1 deer a week? If that is so ,how many lions are in Utah? Again this is something I think I read somewhere, I might be totally wrong. Maybe the DWR could sent out forms to the cougars.:mrgreen: In all seriousness would be a nice statistic to have although I don't know how it would happen. I know on the collared deer they had some preditor numbers.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

From the DWR website 

"Mule deer are cougars' primary food source
A study Fred Lindsey conducted on the Boulder Mountains from 1979 to 1987 found that mule deer made up 81 percent of the cougars' diet in the area. And an ongoing study that Michael Wolfe from Utah State University started on the Oquirrh Mountains in 1995 has found that mule deer comprise an even higher percentage of the cougars' diet ? 89 percent.

But which part of the deer population are cougars targeting? Adults, fawns or both?

The answer is bucks and does.

For example, Smith's study on the LaSal Mountains found that only three percent of the fawns that died were killed by cougars. And Karpowitz's study yielded similar results ? cougars accounted for only 13 percent of the fawns that died on the Book Cliffs during his study.

This is important information because it leads to an important question ? which segment of Utah's deer population needs the most protection from predators?

A statewide study the Division of Wildlife Resources started in 2009 is providing some answers.

Protecting fawns

In 2009, DWR biologists put radio collars on 420 does and fawns in areas across the state. Comparing the number of deer that died and the number that survived, biologists estimate that 12 percent of Utah's adult deer population died in 2009.

The number of adults that died was lower than the biologists expected. The number of fawns that died, however, was much higher.

Of the total number of fawns biologists put radio collars on, 45 percent of the fawns died.

This ongoing study points to the loss of fawns as the main reason why many of Utah's deer herds aren't growing.

And coyotes are the predator that affect fawns the most."


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Link:

Master's Thesis:. http://tinyurl.com/jddsav9

Cougar Management Plan (2015): 
http://tinyurl.com/hscn6ra


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

backcountry said:


> Link:
> 
> Master's Thesis:. http://tinyurl.com/jddsav9
> 
> ...


Very interesting. That's probably the only thesis I've read all the way through. Thanks for posting.


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