# Grouse for the dogless?



## tkjwonta (Jan 20, 2010)

With the grouse premit drawings upcoming, I was just wondering if I would have any chance at bagging a grouse without dogs. I have hunted pheasants and been successful both with and without dogs but have found it much easier and more enjoyable with dogs. Having never hunted grouse before, I was wondering if the experience would be similar to pheasants.

Thanks!


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2011)

anything is possible if you are willing to work hard enough at it... ive found they arent too hard to kill and they are fairly stupid birds (atleast where i have seen them)


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Grouse without a dog is much easier than pheasents without a dog. I havent owned a dog in 20 years but I always manage to get more than my share of grouse. They have an exploitable habit that is easy to take advantage of.


-DallanC


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Depends on what kind of grouse you are talking about. If its blues and ruffs, its not too hard to hunt them without a dog, although a pooch makes it much easier to find them. Sometimes they'll sit perfectly still in the undergrowth just feet away and not move a muscle, and you'd never find them without a dog. Other times they'll hang out in the trees overhead and its tough to see them there. Without a doubt, the good nose of a dog will help you find more birds.

Now, if its sharpies and sage grouse that you're thinking about (the ones you need tags for) then that's a whole different story. A good dog is indispensable when hunting these flighty buggers. Its part of the reason why I haven't paid them much attention. (I just got a dog last year.) It helps if you know where to find them, but they tend to flush wild, and a good pointing dog helps to pin them down long enough for you to get there for a shot. If it were me, I'd rather spend time chasing pine hens than open-country birds without a dog, but that's just my opinion.

In either case, have fun!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Hunting birds without a dog should be illegal...

Ok, that's a little harsh I know, but seriously, dogs make the sport of bird hunting so much more fun and rewarding plus it's far more ethical to use a well trained dog in the aid of finding and then retrieving the birds. Grouse are pretty dumb, but that doesn't mean they deserve any less respect when comes to finding all cripples and wounded birds.

My .002


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

Tex you cohad me at "*Dogs make the sport of bird hunting*." You could have stopped there Because that says it all.


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## Speedbump (Mar 7, 2011)

I Don't believe having a dog makes hunting anymore ethical. I like most hunters want a clean kill and will make a major attempt to retrieve any wounded. I am not using a dog and am **** glad Tex dosent make any laws.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Tkjwonta, you can find forest grouse without a dog sometimes. They can be pretty dumb. You don't need to put in for any draw to hunt those. Just buy a small game permit and go walk around in the mountains this fall. 

You mentioned grouse permit drawings, though, which leads me to believe you're wanting to put in for sage grouse or sharptail grouse. I sure wouldn't bother to hunt either without a dog...Something about a needle in a haystack comes to mind.  Both of these birds are very, very limited in supply. Most of the sharptail grouse land is privately owned. The proclamation warns hunters that sharptail habitat in Utah is close to 100% private land. Getting access is kind of a pain, then to not have a dog to hunt with? Why bother?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

An interesting subject. In all the years that I have hunted sage grouse on Parker Mountain I have never had a dog and none of my hunting partners have had a dog and we have taken our 2 grouse limits every year that we have drawn the tags. I have also taken way over my fare share of ruffles and blues up in the hills without a dog. I will have to admit that a lot of them were taken while deer or elk hunting but once you learn their habits you can figure out where they are. As far as loosing one I have only had one in over 40 years of hunting them that I couldn't find. After he hit the ground he took off running, now a dog would of been nice that time.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I Don't believe having a dog makes hunting anymore ethical. I like most hunters want a clean kill and will make a major attempt to retrieve any wounded.


I'm with ya, and I believe you do make every attempt speedbump, BUT, how in the world can you think hunting without a dog carries with it the same ethical principles that hunting with a dog does. We all do our best to recover game but even the best laid plans go south. You ever run down a winged rooster on waist deep cover? I never have... You ever retrieve a duck that was shot over water deeper than your waders? I never have... These are both scenarios that could and do happen all the time. With out a dog, you're screwed! WITH a dog, you'll almost always come up with that bird. More ethical? I think so! I'm not going to judge or blast someone for hunting birds without a dog, hell, when I was a kid I did it all the time. But hunting without one makes you SO limited in what you can accomplish both before and AFTER the shot is fired it's almost embarrassing. Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead in the field without a bird dog. For all the ethical and physical reasons.

I believe one can hunt grouse and do pretty good without a dog. They are stupid birds and are fairly easy to bring to hand without a dog. I still wouldn't hunt them without a dog, but that's just me...


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I Don't believe having a dog makes hunting anymore ethical. I like most hunters want a clean kill and will make a major attempt to retrieve any wounded.


I'm with ya, and I believe you do make every attempt speedbump, BUT, how in the world can you think hunting without a dog carries with it the same ethical principles that hunting with a dog does. We all do our best to recover game but even the best laid plans go south. You ever run down a winged rooster in waist deep cover? I never have... You ever retrieve a duck that was shot over water deeper than your waders? I never have... These are both scenarios that could and do happen all the time. With out a dog, you're screwed! WITH a dog, you'll almost always come up with that bird. More ethical? I think so! I'm not going to judge or blast someone for hunting birds without a dog, hell, when I was a kid I did it all the time. But hunting without one makes you SO limited in what you can accomplish both before and AFTER the shot is fired it's almost embarrassing. Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead in the field without a bird dog. For all the ethical and physical reasons.

I believe one can hunt grouse and do pretty good without a dog. They are stupid birds and are fairly easy to bring to hand without a dog. I still wouldn't hunt them without a dog, but that's just me...


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I'm with ya, and I believe you do make every attempt speedbump, BUT, how in the world can you think hunting without a dog carries with it the same ethical principles that hunting with a dog does.


Wow... just wow. What a short sighted, selfish arrogant comment. There are a great many people who feel hunting WITH a dog is unethical. The bird has little chance to escape, the hunter has time to prepare for the flush etc etc. Do I agree with that argument? No... but I cant immediately dismiss it either, there is a valid point there. To say anyone is unethical due to lack of a dog is foolish, it is you imposing your elitest views on others.



> We all do our best to recover game but even the best laid plans go south. You ever run down a winged rooster in waist deep cover? I never have... You ever retrieve a duck that was shot over water deeper than your waders? I never have... These are both scenarios that could and do happen all the time. With out a dog, you're screwed! WITH a dog, you'll almost always come up with that bird. More ethical?


And my old Irish Setter would catch and kill birds in the flush if it could, it couldnt tell a Hen pheasant from a rooster, and it was darn good at catching birds. It always bothered me to see a hen killed... ethical? Was I better off without the dog? /shrug



> I think so! I'm not going to judge or blast someone for hunting birds without a dog,


Yes you are. You just did with your blanket "ethics" comment above. :roll:



> hell, when I was a kid I did it all the time. But hunting without one makes you SO limited in what you can accomplish both before and AFTER the shot is fired it's almost embarrassing. Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead in the field without a bird dog. For all the ethical and physical reasons.


And that is your choice, just dont impose it on others.



> I believe one can hunt grouse and do pretty good without a dog. They are stupid birds and are fairly easy to bring to hand without a dog. I still wouldn't hunt them without a dog, but that's just me...


That final sentance is really all you needed to put in this thread: It can be done, but its better with one. Leave the judgemental ethics opinions out of it.

-DallanC


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Just my opinions Dallan! Don't get your feelers hurt...What you choose to do is up to you! PM sent...


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Here we go again! Haven't we had this discussion every year since the forum started?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Yup... Fun aint it...


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Chaser said:


> Here we go again! Haven't we had this discussion every year since the forum started?


Yes; every August, November and then again May/June.

Typically the bird dog debate precedes the "what choke do I use debate". But we are off schedule this year....propably an el Niña thing.

Personally I don't need a dog for grouse.....uh....although Zim's dog helped me find a grouse I was about to give up on......and I guess I've lost a few pine grouse shot thru and thru with arrows. But I can't take a dog with me big game archery hunting.

I would like one for doves. Do they have dove dogs? I don't think so.

When I retire the second thing I'm gonna do is get a good dog. I was thinking a nice spainiel, or a Labradrawer retreever, but both are too hard to spell...So I'm going with a Border Collie. I know, I know, those bird dogs can fetch things, like a newspaper, or a dead ruffed in an alder swamp, but I'm going with a Border Collie, they can not only fetch a newspaper, but read it to me too.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

You may not believe me, but my lab was finding and fetching dead doves last year on the opener in 8 foot high reeds and waist-high grass. Not bad for an 8 month old puppy!


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Chaser said:


> You may not believe me, but my lab was finding and fetching dead doves last year on the opener in 8 foot high reeds and waist-high grass. Not bad for an 8 month old puppy!


That's neat. Have you use it on forest grouse yet?


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Why are Labs are used as seeing eye dogs instead of border collies? Labs are smarter and more helpful and better readers. 

I believe you, Chaser. I've never met a bird dog that won't retrieve doves, especially a Labrador. Labs should fetch anything and everything. They're *retrievers*.


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## tkjwonta (Jan 20, 2010)

Sorry to start such a boisterous discussion. Just to clarify for those who are interested in my original query, I am mainly concerned with forest grouse but I will also probably attempt to hunt sage grouse if I can draw a permit. I have no interest in sharptails. Thanks again!


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> I would like one for doves. Do they have dove dogs? I don't think so.


 Yea, they're called Labs. Mine even retrieves Forest Grouse too. It is pretty neat.

Why don't you think Labs or any bird dog for that matter retrieve doves?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I would like one for doves. Do they have dove dogs?


My Jack Russel retrieves doves, but when a gun goes off she's huntin a hole to crawl into... :?


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## tigerpincer (Dec 5, 2009)

blackdog said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> > I would like one for doves. Do they have dove dogs? I don't think so.
> ...


I take my GSP Bronco with me on the Dove hunt every year. He does a great job of finding Doves that I would likely never have found after the shot. Before taking him I was almost guaranteed to lose a dove or two or three. Since he's been coming along we havent lost any.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

blackdog said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> > I would like one for doves. Do they have dove dogs? I don't think so.
> ...


I'm a dumb hillbilly from Illinoise, Illannoy...Illannoise...uh the Land Of Lincoln. We had had a bajillion doves on our farm. Had a gravel lane from the farm house down to lake (pond) We used the lane to haul wagon loads of grain from the fields to the buildings. So the lane had ground grain on it, a dove magnet...and it had loads of pheasants, quail, partridge, even ducks. We had blue tick **** hounds; not exactly what you woul call bird dogs. So I learned how to, and became accustom to, hunting birds without dogs.

I like to have a dog for doves, quail, and ptarmigan. I just don't need one for grouse, pheasants or waterfowl.....uh..the only thing I hunt in the phrag anymore are swans.


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## GCKid (Sep 11, 2007)

I hunted close to 40 years without a dog (except duck hunting). For upland game I thought they were worthless. They seemed to always flush birds that were out of range and chased them all over the place. However that all changed 7 years ago when my daughter wanted a dog. I decided to get a dog that maybe I could use once she got bored with it. Now I wouldn't even think of going upland hunting without a dog. I even end up going hunting some weekends just because the DOG wants to go.


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## mr.seven (Sep 18, 2007)

i prefer to be the hunter not follow the hunter more gratifing but if you have no skills then by all means use a dog just dont refer to yourselve as the hunter


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

mr.seven said:


> i prefer to be the hunter not follow the hunter more gratifing but if you have no skills then by all means use a dog just dont refer to yourselve as the hunter


Yeah...takes serious skills to shoot a grouse without a dog :O||: Gratification is watching a highly trained dog do it's thing....the killing/shooting of the bird is secondary...."hunter"


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

gdog said:


> mr.seven said:
> 
> 
> > i prefer to be the hunter not follow the hunter more gratifing but if you have no skills then by all means use a dog just dont refer to yourselve as the hunter
> ...


About time, I've been waiting for you.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> gdog said:
> 
> 
> > mr.seven said:
> ...


I've been out trying to find a highly trained dog! :shock:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

gdog said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> > ..........................................................About time, I've been waiting for you.
> ...


 :mrgreen:


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

I think it is all about the situation you are in. If you have the time and money to train a dog to hunt then go ahead and have at it. I work about 70-80 hours a week and you don't want to see my material and tool bills!! So, paying a guy to train my dog would be stupid, hunting is not a serious priority when you have a house note!! So, For me I hunt without a dog and the first season I was really struggling to even jump a grouse. Now I have no idea why guys say you need a dog for grouse, atleast forest grouse that is. As for finding cripples, how can you miss those big chicken? They are massive and they just 5 feet from you!! If you are ethical you are ethical dog or no dog. I'm sure of my shots and I aim small. I do the same with ducks. Shoot to kill like you are shooting a rifle and only pull the trigger when you are sure you are on target just like a deer!! Are you going to lose one every few years, sure and so are the dog hunters. Once I have way more time on my hands I'll train a dog and enjoy hunting over him but till then I have no problem shooting a bird without a dog. Ya know my grandpaw says deer hunting with dogs is more ethical also, do you dog guys think we should deer hunt with hounds?? You know you'd hardly lose a deer if you had a dog on the hunt!!!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Ya know my grandpaw says deer hunting with dogs is more ethical also, do you dog guys think we should deer hunt with hounds?? You know you'd hardly lose a deer if you had a dog on the hunt!!!


I like your Grandpa! We should ABSOLUTELY be able to use a well trained dog in the field to aid in the finding of hit, wounded, or dead big game! There is no threat to other wild game whatsoever from a trained tracking dog on a long line. Your grandpa is right on.


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## mr.seven (Sep 18, 2007)

gdog you have no reason hunting if killing the bird is secodary to you no wonder tree huggers hate us


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't understand that comment. Tree huggers hate us because we aren't just killers? Killing the bird is secondary to me too. It is all about the point for me. When I was younger the kill meant a lot more. Today it is about the dogs.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > Ya know my grandpaw says deer hunting with dogs is more ethical also, do you dog guys think we should deer hunt with hounds?? You know you'd hardly lose a deer if you had a dog on the hunt!!!
> 
> 
> I like your Grandpa! We should ABSOLUTELY be able to use a well trained dog in the field to aid in the finding of hit, wounded, or dead big game! There is no threat to other wild game whatsoever from a trained tracking dog on a long line. Your grandpa is right on.


+1


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > Ya know my grandpaw says deer hunting with dogs is more ethical also, do you dog guys think we should deer hunt with hounds?? You know you'd hardly lose a deer if you had a dog on the hunt!!!
> 
> 
> I like your Grandpa! We should ABSOLUTELY be able to use a well trained dog in the field to aid in the finding of hit, wounded, or dead big game! There is no threat to other wild game whatsoever from a trained tracking dog on a long line. Your grandpa is right on.


HAHA oh no you got it all wrong, he means use dogs to HUNT deer not just track wounded deer!! I mean use them in the same way you guys use them to chase birds!!
Would you be ok with that, I mean there is no arguing it is WAY more "ethical"!!
This is how it is done in Louisiana. You set up a line of guys, you set the dogs lose and let the dogs run the deer into the firing line. Those guys say it is all about watching the dogs and all that. Bottom line is they almost NEVER lose a deer. They say the same stuff you bird doggers are saying. I love my dog but I also love hunting without a dog!! It is not un-ethical unless the guy behind the trigger is unethical dog or no dog!! I could say it is unethical to the dog to let him get his feet tore up of rocks and risk getting a face full of quils and all the rest of the risk, it is all about how you look at it. For me, I'll stick to just being ethical no matter where or how I hunt.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

Bret said:


> I don't understand that comment. Tree huggers hate us because we aren't just killers? Killing the bird is secondary to me too. It is all about the point for me. When I was younger the kill meant a lot more. Today it is about the dogs.


Whatever floats your boat but everybody is different and that doesn't make it un-ethical. 
For me it is all about Friday night with a pan fried grouse breast!! The hike is first and viewing the wildlife, the "hunt" is second, the meat is 3rd and the kill is last!!


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't recall saying it was unethical. To me it just wouldn't be any fun. My coment was @ mr seven. I understand what you said and believe it or not I don't even disagree. Like you said whatever floats your boat.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

Bret said:


> I don't recall saying it was unethical. To me it just wouldn't be any fun. My coment was @ mr seven. I understand what you said and believe it or not I don't even disagree. Like you said whatever floats your boat.


Sorry I was commenting on the general them of the thread and should not have included your quote in my comment.


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## Ryfly (Sep 13, 2007)

mr.seven said:


> gdog you have no reason hunting if killing the bird is secodary to you no wonder tree huggers hate us


It's intelligent posts like this that I love most about this forum and the reason I visit here nearly every year.


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## Ryfly (Sep 13, 2007)

You CAN hunt birds without a dog and it can be fun and exciting but once you shoot a bird pointed and retrieved by a dog that you raised from a tiny pup until the two of you are a tightly bonded team, well...... everything else seems pretty pointless.


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## Goshawk (Sep 7, 2007)

yeah....seems pretty pointless


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## Ryfly (Sep 13, 2007)

Goshawk said:


> yeah....seems pretty pointless


Pun intended.


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## ddhunter (Jul 17, 2011)

I agree with the dog guys, there is no argument that you will recover more game with a dog than with out. With that said it is in no way unethical to hunt with out one. It is simply inconvenient due to the fact that when you shoot that one bird that flies a little further than you thought, or clears that 6' deep creek you spend the next hour of your hunt looking for that bird. That hour spent looking is why it's not unethical, but if you immediately chalk it up to a lose, then it is unethical dog or not.


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## StillAboveGround (Aug 20, 2011)

Yeah I too hunt forest grouse dogless...
and mostly go grouseless...
But still a grouseless day of dogless grouse hunting beats a day at the mall...


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Geeze, that last picture is cool. It should be in a magazine or on an outdoor forum or something.


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## grouse dog (Jul 20, 2011)

StillAboveGround said:


> But still a grouseless day of dogless grouse hunting beats a day at the mall...


thats for sure. i would much rather be hunting and not seeing anything than working, any day of the week.

but as a dog guy, i can't seem to force myself to go back and go dogless. for me, watching the dog work is more fun than the actually harvesting. doesn't matter if it is a pointing breed or retriever, there is something cool about bird dogs that gets in your blood stream. i have taken a lot of grouse when i was younger without a dog so it can be done and can be succesfully but from my experience it just means you might have to put on more miles than it would hunting with a skilled bird dog.


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## StillAboveGround (Aug 20, 2011)

Agree totally Grouse Dog...
I have just been dog-less for too long because my job required so much travel...
Since I no longer have that job, that is something I need to fix...

Some of my favorite memories are hunting with dogs...
My grandfather kept beagles for rabbits (it's a South'n thang)...
Since I moved out West, spent many days in the field with variety of dogs (Labs, German short-hair, German wire-hair, English Setters)... Just gotta decide which way I want to go...


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## grouse dog (Jul 20, 2011)

well, i love grouse hunting, my all time favorite type of hunting, and i use a lab for that. i love the sudden flush sound and having to react to it. i cant imagine not hunting with my labs for grouse. i know guys that do very well with their pointing breeds too but i like the flush personally so i stick with the labs.


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## StillAboveGround (Aug 20, 2011)

Must have flushed 20+ grouse (ruffs and blues) during the deer and elk hunts...

Have been out (hunting dog-less) only a few times this Fall...
Lots of good exercise, scenery, fresh air and even found a few grouse...
Last week, I found a ruffed that waited on me to get in position before flushing...
And finally, a dog-less grouse dinner


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## StillAboveGround (Aug 20, 2011)

Another dog-less grouse dinner the last day of the year...
Almost had a double...


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