# Fish taxidermy question / help



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

who's our resident fish taxidermist?

I've got a project with my fish at home -- I need to ask some questions....


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Wasn't Tex the fish expert on here?

I haven't seen him post in a few years but his web site is still up.

http://www.birdfishtaxidermist.com/


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I guess it doesn't have to be a taxidermist -- someone else might know the answer.


My Chum Salmon mount (fiberglass replica) needs to be spruced up. It is just the fish with a wire hanger on the back.

I found a nice piece of juniper drift wood -- it has a nice twist in it, with some knots and other character. I have already got the driftwood ready to hang. I just need to attach the fish to the driftwood.

My original plan was to use two 1/2" dowel rods:
A: drill two 1/2" holes in the driftwood and insert dowel rods
B: drill two matching 1/2" holes in fish and insert fish on dowel rods

I thought the fish was solid -- ie: full of foam. It is not. It is hollow.

I'm now wondering if I could continue with my original plan by drilling a 1/2" hole in the back of the fish, and filling with expanding foam. Once the foam cured I could then move forward with the dowels (or, even insert the dowels prior to curing and allow the foam to hold the dowels in place.

How strong is expanding foam -- am I risking having the foam crack the fish while it expands?
Am I crazy?

I guess I could test out a couple cans of foam on a soda can, bottle, coffee cup, etc...


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> How strong is expanding foam -- am I risking having the foam crack the fish while it expands?


Depends on the foam.

Thats why homedepot sells both blue and red cans of expanding foam insulation spray. The blue stuff isnt supposed to have the force to push things apart. The red stuff is the opposite, it has a huge amount of force to expand into all kinds of places (ends up usually where you dont want it).

Minimally expanding: https://www.homedepot.com/p/GREAT-S...lant-with-Quick-Stop-Straw-99053990/206983874

Max expanding (super messy): https://www.homedepot.com/p/GREAT-S...PIPHorizontal2_rr-_-206983874-_-206977048-_-N

Make sure you COVER the entire fish with a bag or something prior to adding foam. Cut a hole in the bag bigger than your fill hole, tape it to the fish over your fill hole. Make sure tape or bag covers every visible spot of the fish... cuz that stuff is impossible to get off of most surfaces.

-DallanC


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## naturalist (Aug 20, 2011)

I have quite a bit of experience working with replica fish. There should be a wood block attached to the inner surface of the back side of the fish. It may only be 4 or 5 inches long and maybe 2 inches wide but it should definitely be there. Check and see how the wire hanger is attached. You'd be better off attaching the fish using screws into the wood rather than dowels into foam. I can't imagine that the fish is just a hollow shell with neither inside.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

the wire hanger was attached using two screws. I honestly cannot tell if there is a wood block inside or not. I can see where the original taxidermist re-mounted the wire hanger from the original location due to what appears a poor "first" attempt. I have attempted to tighten the screws (the hanger is somewhat "loose") and the screws don't tighten. I'm not too convinced there is a wood block inside.

I'll take a few pictures tonight and post them tomorrow.

I'm still leaning towards the dowels and foam. Would this approach work, even if you think using screws would be better?


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## naturalist (Aug 20, 2011)

The dowels and foam would work. You would want to extend the dowels well into the fish (3+ inches). Before foaming them in, attach some type of projections to the dowels so that they don't eventually spin in the cured foam.


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## John Holley's Taxidermy (Dec 27, 2015)

PBH, 
I'd be glad to help with your question. 
There are various replica blanks makers that use different materials and techniques. 
It's a little complicated to tell you the best way to tackle the situation until I have a bit of info. 
If you'd like to give me a call I'm sure I can point you in the right direction. 
Thanks, John
801-787-7783


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Below are a few pics. In the first picture you can see the "original" holes that the taxidermist used to attach the wire hanger. The other holes are where the wire hanger 'really' was attached. The hanger was never "tight", which caused the fish to somewhat tip downward when hung on the wall, putting pressure on some of the fins.

you can also see that the original holes had some cracks in them.
Aside from the aesthetics of the driftwood, the above are reasons I want to change the display. I figured the dowels would provide a better mount than the screws and wire hanger -- but maybe I'm completely wrong.

I still don't know if there really is a wood mounting plate inside the fish.









































I'm still leaning towards using some spray foam and dowels. My thinking is that as long as I don't attempt to fill the entire cavity, then it should work just fine. I really don't want to break the body cavity -- how strong are these replicas?


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## naturalist (Aug 20, 2011)

Nice looking fish reproduction. These replicas are typically made by coating the surface of two mold halves (one of each side of the fish) with a polyester gel coat. This coating picks up all of the scale detail and other surface features of the fish. The gel coat is then built up and strengthened on the back side with chopped fiberglass strands. A wood block is attached to the inside of the back side of the fish, ideally near the balance point, and both halves are then attached together. The inside of the fish is then filled with expanding foam which is generally applied through the mouth opening. Without the foam reinforcement inside the replicas are fairly fragile. To make one last check to see if the wood is there, take a straight piece of wire and bend the outer 3 inches to make a "L" shape. Then put the short end into the drilled holes and with the longer part perpendicular to the fish, twist it to see if it touches wood. If so then you can isolate the wood and use that to secure the fish. If you still can't locate any wood then your original plan with the foam may be best. There are other options, like cutting a small window in the back of the fish using a Dremel tool to see whats inside and go from there but that's a bigger project.

Just an FYI, the term "fiberglass fish reproduction" is a little misleading. All of the outer surface you see on a reproduction fish, before it's been painted and excluding the glass eyes, is polyester. The fiberglass is only used as a reinforcement material on the inside. A lot of fish specialists now make their castings using epoxies, urethanes, and in some cases, graphite and no fiberglass is involved. They are still marketed however as "fiberglass" since that material has been associated with these replicas for so long.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

naturalist said:


> There should be a wood block attached to the inner surface of the back side of the fish.





naturalist said:


> A wood block is attached to the inside of the back side of the fish, ideally near the balance point...


I don't know whether to laugh, or to be frustrated:

Yes! there is a wood block attached to the inside of the fish. No, it is not on the back of the fish, but on the front -- or, rather, what the taxidermist turned into the front of the fish! so much for using the wood block to attach to!

This brings up a real gripe I have with fish "taxidermists" of today. No offense specifically to naturalist, or any others on this forum. Maybe you guys can help convince me that you truly are taxidermists.

In today's world, it's all about "reproductions". They are supposedly better - just ask your "taxidermist". But who are they better for?

In the old days, a taxidermist took *your* fish. It was skinned, and then stretched over a foam block carved into a shape to match *your* fish. It was then painted to match *your* fish. The whole process was done, by a taxidermist, to preserve that wonderful memory when you caught *your* fish.

today, you don't get your fish. You get a blank made from someone else's fish. It might match the dimensions of your fish, but usually it won't. The "taxidermist" doesn't have to do anything, except paint your fish. So he's really just an artist -- albeit a very talented artist. But he's no taxidermist. buying blanks to paint is more like an assembly line reproduction.

I love my chum. It certainly preserves the memory. It makes me remember that the fish I really caught was over 2" longer -- but nobody makes blanks that size. Which is part of the reason I wanted a mount done in the first place -- because that fish was big!

anyway -- sorry for the rant.

I purchased some 4lb 2-part expanding foam. Yesterday I began pouring the foam, in small increments. I think one more pour this afternoon should fill the cavity and give me something to anchor a propper hanger to in the "front" of my fish -- so that I can display the finished back. 


(if anyone knows of a good taxidermist that does either skin mounts, or makes his own replicas based off actual dimensions of the fish being mounted, let me know. I need a good taxidermist).

(I could be completely wrong about everything I said in the above post)
(I still need to find a good taxidermist)


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## John Holley's Taxidermy (Dec 27, 2015)

PBH,
Funny I was just checking to see if you posted any follow up on your replica question. 

Greatly enjoyed your latest post as I have similar feelings and I'll try and answer a few. 
I've been involved in the taxidermy business for over 40 years. Specializing in fish. Both skin mounts and replicas. 
You ask some good questions.
Years ago skin mounts were done on most fresh water species and replicas were used for species like saltwater that won't preserve well. 

As years passed there have been some changes.
Catch and release practices, political correctness???? And a new generation of so called taxidermists that have no idea how to do solid skin mount and no intention of wanting to learn. Instead they preach and throw out false info how skin mounts won't last and how people are throwing their money away. 
To me nothing could be further from the truth.
I actually have 2 lake trout that I skin mounted in '79 and '81 hanging in sports stores just for the people to view that say they won't last. ( Midvale sportsmans warehouse ) I also added a replica displayed with them. I get calls asking which is which. My answer... You tell me
People who have bad skin mount problems also have bad taxidermist problems.

However with that said, Half the people that come in won't have anything but their fish and the other half thinks its a sin to keep any fish and want a replica. 
I actually enjoy doing both and some fish do lend them selves with one method better than the other. 

To answer another question you asked,
There are basically two processes for replicas. 
One where we mold and cast your actual fish and the other where we have one in our collection that is close. We can then change heads, fins an some mods to further customize your personal trophy. 

Whith today's techs and methods replicas can be very authentic.
However they can't replace the personal trophy value that some demand. 

Anyway I won't get into a long winded post but I'd be glad to answer any of your questions or what others may have. 

Feel free to call or request pics etc.
801-787-7783
Thanks, John


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## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

PBH - I couldn't agree with you more about skin vs replicas. I have zero mounts and hardly a desire to have any. It would have to be a very special fish (10lb tiger, 5+lb brookie) and it will have to be a skin mount.

The thing I notice most about "taxidermists" these days is that most of them suck at vermiculation. A lot of people brag their work up as though it's really good, but their brookies look like they went to a tattoo parlor and got tribal work done along their back.

Mr. Holley above sounds like he knows what he's doing and at the very least, respects the process of creating a real trophy mount.

Another taxidermist to consider is a guy named Sid Killian. He's done mounts for a couple of buddies and his work is phenomenal.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

John Holley -- thanks for the reply. Have you got a web site? I'd love to check out some of your stuff.

I kind of have to liken taxidermists to fisheries biologists: Those that come from a "big game" background are never as good as those that come from a "fishing" background.


Update: Pretty much done!

I did a number of tests using Great Stuff foam (blue and red) in some empty mile jugs. A few observations, in no particular order:

A. "Foaming in" a dowel rod wouldn't work. The foam doesn't cure very fast, and it pushes and moves the dowel road all over while it works to expand. I realized that it would be better to allow the foam to expand, set up, and then drill my hole to insert the dowels. This worked much better.

B. The "blue" door and window stuff is too rubbery and flexible. My tests with a milk jug caused me concern that this foam probably wasn't the right stuff. 

C. The red Great Stuff foam wasn't any good either. It wasn't dense enough. when drilling a hole to insert a dowel, the foam wasn't consistent, and had too many air pockets. It just plain wasn't dense enough. I have two partially used cans of this stuff to toss out, and two new cans I'd gladly give away.

D. I purchased some 4lb 2-part pour urethane expanding foam. This stuff was great! My test in a milk jug worked very well. It was pretty easy to mix, and pour -- as long as you allowed it to heat up first. I had my space heater running in my work worm to warm everything up. The density was much better, and drilling a hole worked out great. This should work!

E. Make sure to work in small batches. I didn't want to over do it, and either have foam coming out my own ears, or crack the fish. So I poured 4 different batches, allowed each to expand and set up before pouring the next. Twice I had foam come out different areas of the fish (gills, fins). I allowed that foam to set up before cleaning it up with a razor knife. That worked fine. The cavity filled, and on the last batch actually started expanding out the pour-holes. This worked out great!

F. The only minor trouble I had was due to my inability to drill two holes at the same angle. Then drill two more matching holes (first in the log, then in the fish). Oh well, I was able to get the dowels into the fish, then make some minor adjustments to the holes in the log, and slide everything together! 

The only thing left to do now is glue the dowels in place, and hang it up for good.  I'm really happy with the way this turned out.


Here are a few pictures of the finished product:


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

And, just for comparison, some before and after shots:

Before:
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After:


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

i just noticed this thread today. It was fun reading. I do skin mounts as well as reproductions. My thinking on reproductions is that they are best suited for the catch and release guys. If you want to have the fish mounted AND let it swim away then a reproduction is a good choice. It's the guys that bring me the fish and wants me to do a fake one that I scratch my head at a little. A dead fish isn't a whole lot of good for color reference, live pictures are much better. If you want to keep the fish AND have it mounted as a reproduction then take it to the taxidermist the day you catch it. Let him/her take the necessary information and then you can take it home and eat it.

Next question you might ask of your fish taxidermist is do they just buy a foam body from the supply company and slap your fish skin onto it???? A fish skin is only so flexible, especially cold water fish. It's not like a nylon that will just fit whatever you stick into it. If you want a good fish the body should be carved to match YOUR fish.

PBH, I'll message you a link to my web site, but I will be the first to tell you that John Holly has more experience than I do at fish taxidermy.


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## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

I think that you have went the right way, (looks AWESOME)
I have a 35 inch 18 lb Tiger that I caught on the Zambezi river (Fiberglass) sill looks good after 15 + years, I had 3 bill fish mounts that were real skin mounts Sailfish, striped Marlin,and a Blue marlin. Noticed I said Had, The sun in the pool room dried them out and they cracked all to hell, all I saved were the bills, my father went fiberglass with his black Marlin it's 20+ years old and still looks great,

It will be Fiberglass for me if I ever mount another fish


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