# Utah's Wolf plan



## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

So now that the Wolves are finally off the endangered species list, what is Utah's stance on them? Although I would love to see a shoot on sight policy, I highly doubt that will ever happen. So, how are we going to deal with them? Are going to have hunts for them?
I can't find the management plan on the DWR site, anyone have a link?


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## Amy (Jan 22, 2009)

Elkoholic8 said:


> So now that the Wolves are finally off the endangered species list, what is Utah's stance on them?


Here are links to the management plan and a Q&A page that explains the current situation. Hope this helps!


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

Until they are officially recognized, I don't see a problem with shooting LARGE coyotes on sight.


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## lobowatch (Apr 23, 2011)

Flyfishn247 said:


> Until they are officially recognized, I don't see a problem with shooting LARGE coyotes on sight.


Dude, are you serious? I would sure hate to have to explain myself to the authorities for shooting one of the critters you "elude" to. Here is a quote from the DWR Q&A page:

"Although there have been confirmed wolf sightings - and rare instances of wolf-related livestock depredation - *there are no known established packs in Utah*."


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## SLCMULEY (Mar 14, 2010)

Wolfwatcher-
There are no wolves in Utah? The comments such as Flyfishn247's are concerned sportsman that have watched what other state's inabilities to plan and act at the expense of big game. A bit more of a pro-active approach would go a long ways.
Utah's current management plan seems to still be waiting for the crisis to occur, however there is some wording in the plan that appears as though Utah is taking better steps than the other states did. It's too bad what has happened to the other western states with wolves and their big game populations respectively. 
Personally if my family and I wanted to be around wolves Yellowstone is close enough for us.


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## FishNaked (Apr 15, 2009)

SLCMULEY...

I don't know if you really understand what happened to the wolves in the other states. They were first forced down their throats and then the rules kept changing and the wolf lover groups had it tied up in federal courts for years. The other states have been crying disaster and trying to get control of the situation since the wolves were released...they didn't just sit back because of their "inabilities" and and watch them eat the elk herds.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

SLCMULEY said:


> Wolfwatcher-
> There are no wolves in Utah? The comments such as Flyfishn247's are concerned sportsman that have watched what other state's inabilities to plan and act at the expense of big game. A bit more of a pro-active approach would go a long ways.
> Utah's current management plan seems to still be waiting for the crisis to occur, however there is some wording in the plan that appears as though Utah is taking better steps than the other states did. It's too bad what has happened to the other western states with wolves and their big game populations respectively.
> Personally if my family and I wanted to be around wolves Yellowstone is close enough for us.


I wouldn't blame the states for the lack of wolf control. They had no choice because of the federal protection that was on them. As we can see with states like Idaho and Montana that when given control have come up with reasonable managment plans, like harvest objective hunts.
As for Utah they can't really have a hunt because they don't know how many wolves are in the state. I think now that the state is in charge they can deal with them approriatly.


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## lobowatch (Apr 23, 2011)

SLCMULEY said:


> Wolfwatcher-
> *There are no wolves in Utah?* The comments such as Flyfishn247's are concerned sportsman that have watched what other state's inabilities to plan and act at the expense of big game. A bit more of a pro-active approach would go a long ways.
> Utah's current management plan seems to still be waiting for the crisis to occur, however there is some wording in the plan that appears as though Utah is taking better steps than the other states did. It's too bad what has happened to the other western states with wolves and their big game populations respectively.
> Personally if my family and I wanted to be around wolves Yellowstone is close enough for us.


I'm not quite sure how to take your post. With your initial question, are you saying I don't think there are wolves in Utah? If so, read my post again. I highlighted the state says there are no established packs. I have no idea if there is or isn't any established individuals, but I would hope given the past with other states, Utah would be vigilant enough to know the status of the g. wolf in the state.

As big game hunters, I'm sure we are ALL concerned about the wolf taking hold here, but if by "more proactive" you are suggesting something other than state mandated regulations, well then I would disagree.

The wolf issue is highly emotional, and if we are to deal with the situation, biological science and cool heads will have to prevail.


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## SLCMULEY (Mar 14, 2010)

2 areas that I frequent near Flaming Gorge have had wolf sightings in the last 2 years. Both sightings have been between 3-6 wolves. Now I can't 100% confirm these sightings however they come from sources that hold credibility to me. Under the wolf plan's definition I think we are very close to confirming 2 breeding pairs. In my mind it's just a matter of time until they are seen more regularly. 

Mikevanwilder- I agree that other states had little to do with managing the initial re introduction and the consequent spreading of wolves. I was simply tring to point out "I hope we can learn from the other failures" ( I re read my original post and you are correct on how I unintentionally came accross). 
With regards to the other wolf states, I am sad for their wolf misfortunes. Hopefully Utah is in a better position to use their examples and efforts. 
Perhaps we will be in a better place to react to the demise of our big game herds. I did notice the plan calls for predator wolf hunting similiar to bears and cougars. This seems to be schedlued as soon as they are considered established?

I cant help but to remember a WB meeting when a gentlemen suggested introducing wolves to keep the coyotes in check. Yes wolves will decimate the coyote populations when there ranges overlap, but my gawd trade a 40 pound killer for a 150 pound killing machine that has been documented to kill for sport at times.

I agree that outdoorsman will need to band together with cool heads and keep steady pressure on this issue. I sure am glad to see Don Peay among the wolf board members. For the record I am not a huge supporter of DP however I feel he will keep big game in mind while dealing with the Utah wolf.

Lobowatch- What exactly does your handle represent? Are you keeping an eye out for invading wolves? Do you enjoy watching them, and can't wait to have them dispersed into Utah? This is not a personal attack, just trying to feel out your MO and overall position on Utah wolves.


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## lobowatch (Apr 23, 2011)

SLCMULEY said:


> 2 areas that I frequent near Flaming Gorge have had wolf sightings in the last 2 years. Both sightings have been between 3-6 wolves. Now I can't 100% confirm these sightings however they come from sources that hold credibility to me. Under the wolf plan's definition I think we are very close to confirming 2 breeding pairs. In my mind it's just a matter of time until they are seen more regularly.
> 
> Mikevanwilder- I agree that other states had little to do with managing the initial re introduction and the consequent spreading of wolves. I was simply tring to point out "I hope we can learn from the other failures" ( I re read my original post and you are correct on how I unintentionally came accross).
> With regards to the other wolf states, I am sad for their wolf misfortunes. Hopefully Utah is in a better position to use their examples and efforts.
> ...


No personal attack on your part taken, no worries. As far as what my handle represents, sure, you could say I like to keep tabs on the wolf situation, especially when it comes to Utah. Do I like watching them? Probably would be cool to see one in the wilds, don't know as I have never seen one yet. That may change soon, as I am hoping to get a tag to hunt one up in Idaho if things work out.

As far as my MO and overall position on wolves: I think the re-introduction of wolves in the west is the biggest wildlife management mistake ever made by those in charge. It opened some doors that will never be closed again. With that said, I have no doubt wolves will make their way to Utah and establish themselves here permanently. That will be a sad, sad day for our wildlife, regardless of how well they are managed by the state. Can I live with it? Yes, there will be no other choice, but that doesn't mean it will be a catastrophic event like the other states, given that our game managers take care of things like they should.

As far as having Mr. Peay around to save the day, I won't go into that here, but I have no doubt much will be said at the appropriate time. There is a GREAT deal of information and events surrounding the wolf issue that has NEVER been brought to the public's attention as of yet, but the day will come when the whole story will be told.

That answers your questions? :?: :mrgreen:


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## SLCMULEY (Mar 14, 2010)

Thanks lobo. For the most part you have answered my questions, but your last paragraph opens up several more. If you do have more info regarding DP or other wolf issues regarding Utah ... Please do tell! o-||


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

SLCMULEY said:


> I did notice the plan calls for predator wolf hunting similiar to bears and cougars. This seems to be schedlued as soon as they are considered established?


An important fact that was not lost on me.

Hope you all realize this means Utah intends to harbor a "healthy population" of wolf someday. Forget controlling their numbers. This means that the DWR will not promote limiting the number of wolf with hunter interest in mind. It wont be an overnight propaganda campaign but the misinformation will slowly be fed to the masses over time. Mark my word someday when the elk herd in Utah is 1/4 what it is today. Some folk will be shouting from the rooftops about how the wolf is to blame. And the powers that be will retort with wolf are not the reason. Wolf predation is compensatory and the herd of elk we had in the 90's through the turn of the century was unnatural. A perfect storm if you will. Habitat and weather is the key. Then look to limiting hunter harvest as a tool to help the herds. And sadly most will be willing to drink the kool aid.

After all in 2011 we refuse to look to the cougar as the primary and most reasonable way to help out the deer herds. (unthinkable in the 60's and 70's) They eat deer in Utah by the 1000s and we want to believe that habitat and weather is the reason for deer declines. And the hunter ends up taking it in the rear as a result.

And a really sad commentary to the whole situation (in a strange way) is in reality wolf, cougar, coyotes and bear. Serve guys like Don Peay and Doyle Moss. The worse our hunter outlook the more money these guys make. In form of higher prices for hunts and recruitment of donations to save or improve what we have left.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

lobowatch said:


> There is a GREAT deal of information and events surrounding the wolf issue that has NEVER been brought to the public's attention as of yet,


Oh, absolutely. Chapters upon chapters. Most don't even know the major characters in the story. (Hint: Peay isn't one of them.)



lobowatch said:


> but the day will come when the whole story will be told.


No, it won't. If the book was written, nobody would take the time to read it with the possible exception of those who already know the story.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

I have seen wolves in the N. Slope of the Uintah Mtns. However, I haven't let them establish any packs there yet.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

I don't intend to let any wolves establish themselves within my line of sight...Please do take that as you will..


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Just my personal experience, but the big bad wolf is waaaayyyyyy overblown. A few wolves are most certainly here, and have been in Utah since at least 2003(my experience). Highly probable wolf sightings in Utah, and the internmountain west, actually go back to the 50's, and ran through to '95. I saw one in 2004, my brother saw his second in 2005, and I tracked 3 on and off again for 3 years here in Utah. I've personally worked with bear and wolf biologists(one an ardent elk hunter) in both Idaho and Yellowstone National Park, and the predator arguement just does not hold water. While lions, tigers, and bears oh my!.... contribute to and exaserbate herd declines, they are not primary to the declines. In fact if it is disease that is driving the decline, predators can buffer the decline and can actually slow it. Anyone know why CWD spreads at excelerated rates in parts of Colorado? Or why Bighorn sheep become primary food sources for wolves(not the norm) in Wyomings Wind Rivers when we have wet spring cycles? Lions are not the problem with deer, elk, sheep, or moose declines in Utah. Go chase or attempt to chase some sign, and you will know what I am saying. The wolf does make for great, inaccurate, profit driven, social engineering by both sides though.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> Just my personal experience, but the big bad wolf is waaaayyyyyy overblown. A few wolves are most certainly here, and have been in Utah since at least 2003(my experience). Highly probable wolf sightings in Utah, and the internmountain west, actually go back to the 50's, and ran through to '95. I saw one in 2004, my brother saw his second in 2005, and I tracked 3 on and off again for 3 years here in Utah. I've personally worked with bear and wolf biologists(one an ardent elk hunter) in both Idaho and Yellowstone National Park, and the predator arguement just does not hold water. While lions, tigers, and bears oh my!.... contribute to and exaserbate herd declines, they are not primary to the declines. In fact if it is disease that is driving the decline, predators can buffer the decline and can actually slow it. Anyone know why CWD spreads at excelerated rates in parts of Colorado? Or why Bighorn sheep become primary food sources for wolves(not the norm) in Wyomings Wind Rivers when we have wet spring cycles? Lions are not the problem with deer, elk, sheep, or moose declines in Utah. Go chase or attempt to chase some sign, and you will know what I am saying. The wolf does make for great, inaccurate, profit driven, social engineering by both sides though.


And it begins. :roll:


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Iron Bear

"koolaid"? We have killed the ?$%^ out of lions, it has not increased deer herds. 

"And it begins" Countering intelectually honest discourse, with Hegelian Dialectic would certainly fall under my description of "inaccurate.......social engineering" Thats no better than the Disney crowd.

Unless hunters can get past all the touchy feely, emotionaly driven, scientifically unfounded, idealogy, we will never establish worth while, long term, sustainable(predator and prey) management, that benefits both hunters and wildlife. Maybe some people want it that way?


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

You cant help yourself can you? :roll: 

Not everything is rocket science. 

Killing the @#$&$& out of cougar? Sounds like the typical misinformation to me.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Iron Bear.... Almost every post I read from you is about how predators are the cause of herd numbers being down. You have even stated that none of the other factors that can cause a decline are valid. I respect you ropinion and I subscribe to it to an extent. I also believe that are other factors that contribute just as much if not more to the decline than predators.

I think you are speaking a bit ahead of the times. When the wolves establish themselves here in Utah then we will be at a point where you can speak to predators being the major cause of decline.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Iron Bear

My self control actually has no bearing on the facts surrounding the subject, but no.

And no this is not rocket science, its wildlife biology. Science, and wether something is causal or not, does matter. There is a way to determine this. All to often in space, and here on earth, things are not always as they appear.

So I'm misinformed about lion numbers being down. Help me out then, are they stable or increasing in number then?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Going back to the wolf plan..... Is there some law currently in effect, beit federal or state, that says I cannot shoot a wolf in Utah?


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> So I'm misinformed about lion numbers being down. Help me out then, are they stable or increasing in number then?


Nobody knows. I would suggest as their prey base declines so does the cougar population. Our cougar management plan is bass ackward in concern to big game hunters. The amount of tags and harvest are not set to limit or reduce cougar populations. And idiotically the DWR manages cougar on a per acre basis. Rather than on a per deer basis.

A must read for any big game hunter.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/cmgtplan.pdf


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Iron Bear

I've read it.

So, since "nobody knows", I can say they have had the #$%* shot out of them, and they are in decline?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

MadHunter

State and federal laws both say you cant shoot wolves in Utah, unless you are a livestock owner defending your stock. So if you fit the latter catagory, have at it.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I guess I will stick to killing 150lb coyotes


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## SLCMULEY (Mar 14, 2010)

I agree the habitat is a major factor in herd health. I feel it would be really stupid to watch Utah lead the way in habitat restoration only to have wolves step in to reap the benifits. 150 lb coyotes are Boone&Crocket Utah efforts in my book. 
I wish folks could be more straight forward with their comments regarding Utah wolves. 
IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING SHARE IT WITH YOUR FELLOW UTAH HUNTERS, IF NOT THEN DONT ELUDE TO BE ELITE IN YOUR UTAH WOLF KNOWLEDGE!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

SLCMULEY said:


> I agree the habitat is a major factor in herd health. I feel it would be really stupid to watch Utah lead the way in habitat restoration only to have wolves step in to reap the benifits. 150 lb coyotes are Boone&Crocket Utah efforts in my book.
> I wish folks could be more straight forward with their comments regarding Utah wolves.
> IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING SHARE IT WITH YOUR FELLOW UTAH HUNTERS, IF NOT THEN DONT ELUDE TO BE ELITE IN YOUR UTAH WOLF KNOWLEDGE!


If the "elite" reference was for me, I apologize for eluding to, and not being staight forward enough. If there is something that I am not being clear on, or you feel I'm with holding, let me know. Just to be clear, I'm not against shooting wolves, I'll be one of the first to buy a Utah tag when they become available. I was not for the reintroduction as it took place, but I am by no means anti wolf, anymore than I am pro wolf. Wolves are apex predators, and have their rightful place as do lions and bears, they are not special. By some peoples logic regarding wolves, we should kill all the lions and bears also? :shock: I'm just saying, Utah has on the very low end 1250 lions, and 2000 bears. If on the very high end we see 200 wolves(we dont have the habitat for more, it would be more like <100, this would include Mexican grey wolves in the south) the world wont end. Besides wolf populatians are on the decline in the Northern rockies.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

SLCMULEY said:


> I wish folks could be more straight forward with their comments regarding Utah wolves. IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING SHARE IT WITH YOUR FELLOW UTAH HUNTERS, IF NOT THEN DONT ELUDE TO BE ELITE IN YOUR UTAH WOLF KNOWLEDGE!


Tried that, as a few others have, but it's a waste of time and effort because nobody wants to read it. Conspiracy theories and emotionalism are a lot more interesting. :lol: When it comes to wolves, only one line of thinking is welcome on hunting forums...case closed.

For my part, there's no elitism involved. I'm just a nerd who's interested in a lot more than just the wildlife that I can kill, has had some involvement in wildlife politics in one way or another since the mid-80s and who has non-hunting friends and associates who share those interests, (yes, THOSE **** people).

And I love wildflowers. I dig hummingbirds. And my favorite color is green.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Finnegan said:


> SLCMULEY said:
> 
> 
> > I wish folks could be more straight forward with their comments regarding Utah wolves. IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING SHARE IT WITH YOUR FELLOW UTAH HUNTERS, IF NOT THEN DONT ELUDE TO BE ELITE IN YOUR UTAH WOLF KNOWLEDGE!
> ...


Nothing wrong with nerds who dig wildflowers and hummingbirds, I'm kinda partial to the butterfly, but hey, we all make choises! :mrgreen: You are dead on about the thought pattern on hunting forums Finn...been there done that...too bad... :roll:


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## lobowatch (Apr 23, 2011)

Iron Bear said:


> Lonetree said:
> 
> 
> > So I'm misinformed about lion numbers being down. Help me out then, are they stable or increasing in number then?
> ...


That would be a fair statement to make Iron Bear if the mule deer were the ONLY prey base. With the introduction of elk, as the mule deer herds deminish, instead of the cougar populations dropping with them, they remain in check as they go to their "second" prey base, the elk. That keeps the cougs stable, and by feeding off of both prey species, with the deer herds already in decline, it continues to limit their growth. That's a bit different than being the "cause" of the decline, but still keeps our herds from rebounding from other limiting factors. With the wolf, the elk will be the prey base, and the deer will keep their numbers healthy. -)O(-


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Just my personal experience, but the big bad wolf is waaaayyyyyy overblown. A few wolves are most certainly here, and have been in Utah since at least 2003(my experience). Highly probable wolf sightings in Utah, and the internmountain west, actually go back to the 50's, and ran through to '95. I saw one in 2004, my brother saw his second in 2005, and I tracked 3 on and off again for 3 years here in Utah. I've personally worked with bear and wolf biologists(one an ardent elk hunter) in both Idaho and Yellowstone National Park, and the predator arguement just does not hold water. While lions, tigers, and bears oh my!.... contribute to and exaserbate herd declines, they are not primary to the declines. In fact if it is disease that is driving the decline, predators can buffer the decline and can actually slow it. Anyone know why CWD spreads at excelerated rates in parts of Colorado? Or why Bighorn sheep become primary food sources for wolves(not the norm) in Wyomings Wind Rivers when we have wet spring cycles? Lions are not the problem with deer, elk, sheep, or moose declines in Utah. Go chase or attempt to chase some sign, and you will know what I am saying. The wolf does make for great, inaccurate, profit driven, social engineering by both sides though.


+1

But.....those **** predators sure do make a good scapegoat, don't they?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> Tried that, as a few others have, but it's a waste of time and effort because nobody wants to read it. Conspiracy theories and emotionalism are a lot more interesting. :lol: When it comes to wolves, only one line of thinking is welcome on hunting forums...case closed.
> 
> For my part, there's no elitism involved. I'm just a nerd who's interested in a lot more than just the wildlife that I can kill, has had some involvement in wildlife politics in one way or another since the mid-80s and who has non-hunting friends and associates who share those interests, (yes, THOSE **** people).
> 
> And I love wildflowers. I dig hummingbirds. And my favorite color is green.


+1

And....I would love to see a wolf in Utah one day. In fact, I would love to watch it walk away from me!

My favorite color is red, though....I love to see the color red on the ground after a well-placed shot!


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