# 200 tags?



## foxhunter (Oct 8, 2007)

This question is to those of you who applied for everything last year at the hunting expo, or maybee applied for "all turkey" or "all deer" etc. 
What did you apply for? And did you draw. 
Personally I applied for about 12 hunts and didnt draw.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Here is the drawing odds so maybe this will help you narrow down what to put in for.

http://www.huntexpo.com/PDFs/Hunt_Draw_Comparisons.pdf


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

It says that bonus points and waiting periods apply. Does this mean that we will be getting a bonus point if unsuccessful?


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## foxhunter (Oct 8, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> It says that bonus points and waiting periods apply. Does this mean that we will be getting a bonus point if unsuccessful?


No, on the left column is this drawing, on the right column its talking about the DWR drawing. They are comparing each side by side. So bonus points and waiting periods DO NOT apply.


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## blackbear (Oct 18, 2007)

THanks for posting this, its great info. 
So my question is- 
If I draw out on one, I know its 5 bucks to apply, but whats the cost of the tag if i draw out?
Do they chose it at the end of the show? how are folks notified if they win?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I think I should have been in bed last night instead of posting. :shock: My bad, sorry.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

blackbear said:


> THanks for posting this, its great info.
> So my question is-
> If I draw out on one, I know its 5 bucks to apply, but whats the cost of the tag if i draw out?
> Do they chose it at the end of the show? how are folks notified if they win?


The cost of the tag is the same as if you drew a LE tag through the DWR drawing. For example: if you draw a PAhvant elk tag at the convention, it would cost $280.00 just as if you drew the same tag through the DWR draw.


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## blackbear (Oct 18, 2007)

Thanks pro,
so the bear, turkey and cougar tags would be the permits 'face value' as well? $80 for bear , $35 for turkey etc......
Who wants to go bear/turkey/cougar hunting...... Im feeling lucky!


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## foxhunter (Oct 8, 2007)

Back to the main topic -)O(- 
So if im reading it right, if i put in for all turkey I have over 100% chance of drawing one of them. ??? Is this right ???


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> So if im reading it right, if i put in for all turkey I have over 100% chance of drawing one of them. ??? Is this right ???


Im not sure what you are reading but it isnt the right information if you think you have over a 100% chance at drawing. You have basically a 1 in 23 chance of drawing depending on the tag since some tags are more popular than others.

1,562 people put in for 67 turkeys tags so I dont see where you think you have over 100% chance at drawing :lol: :lol: :shock: :shock: _(O)_ _(O)_


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Basically what it says is, your chance of drawing one of these tags is slim to none. You have a much better chance of drawing a permit from the regular DWR draw with zero points.


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## tweedmadsen (Nov 16, 2007)

They are playing with the odds a bit to make them look better. If you were to look at the odds on a tag by tag basis you would see that they weren't as good as the posted flyer is making it look.

If I put in for 5 different elk tags, then they should calculate that I just bought 5 lottery tickets. this isn't what they are doing--they would only count me as 1 applicant, even though I bought 5 different chances for the same species. Your odds on the deer and elk are more likely to be somewhere between 1 in 1,000 and 1 in 4,000 because the average applicant for those species likely applied for between 5 and 20 different tags. 

After the draw last year they sent out an e-mail that went over the specifics tag by tag--but i can't find it now.

On one hand you can't fault them for playing with the numbers to create more interest. On the other hand, not making it clear how they are calculating those draw odds is pretty close to false advertising.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Nothing dishonest with their numbers. Do the math, it all adds up just fine. Here is the bottom line for me, with these tags I get to apply for a Henries deer tag, a Pahvant premium elk tag, a rattlesnake bighorn tag, a Wasatch moose tag, a Beaver goat tag, a Henries bison tag, ALL AT THE SAME TIME. I can NOT do that through the 'regular' draw from the DWR. It is also only $5.00 for each hunt you apply for, a GREAT bargain for the 'average' sportsman. I hope many don't think so, it will up my odds. :mrgreen:


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

yah it's a rip off, just let pro and I play it out, we'll let ya know how it goes :lol:


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Plus there are no preference points involved, so that right there gives you a better chance at all those species you currently aren'y on track for - since if you even could apply for them all at once you wouldn't have any competitive points in the regular draw. 

Why isn't anyone complaining about these 200 tags though? Am I the only complainer left?  Anyone want to picket the thing for a couple of days and then put in for the tags anyway? I think I may end up putting in to try it, but it makes me ill. All in the name of conservation though so it must be all good. No one is selling anything there are they? I can't wait to go see what all the hubub is about. Is the hubub about saving animals, or making money or what?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> No one is selling anything there are they? I can't wait to go see what all the hubub is about. Is the hubub about saving animals, or making money or what?


Lots of stuff will be sold there. Stop by the UBA booth and say hi.

It is about 'saving' animals by making 'money' to improve habitat and set aside land that would be developed otherwise. A great investment for our wildlife, and a great way to have a chance at some great tags. 8)


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Steep, you arn't the last one left. I went last year to the Convention and did not apply out of Protest. I have relented and will apply for 5 or 6 tags, but only if Pro will show me where to shoot a 310 bull if I draw a Dutton tag.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Packout said:


> Steep, you arn't the last one left. I went last year to the Convention and did not apply out of Protest. I have relented and will apply for 5 or 6 tags, but only if Pro will show me where to shoot a 310 bull if I draw a Dutton tag.


Sorry, there are no 310 bulls on Dutton. They go from spikes to 380+ bulls in one year. :shock:


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Here is what I hope. I hope the tags are used in such a way that the funds do purchase land/strengthen or establish new herds and maintain habitat etc. Who is the governing authority on the proceeds from the auction? I expect that part is in good order. I would not think it correct for the money to go to sporting groups and hunter orgs who already have their own pool of tags to fund with. 

Of course it isn't, as others have said in years past, by any means an equal opportunity as you need to travel to SL- correct? 

Lastly, when you say it is about money for wildlife that is only half of the picture, right? Is it also about money for vendors like Sportsman's or Cabelas, or any guiding service, or magazines like Eastmans, or Trophy Hunter, or some guy guiding from Alaska or the rest? I haven't been, so correct me if I am wrong- and yes, I am anxious to see it all in action -, but how many people stand to gain X in personal revenue off of this? You know you like your girl or wife for the food and good nurturing and hot woman she is now, but it was all about the body and eyes when you first met right? Guys are pretty simple, a nice rack can draw them like flies.... and they said it was one of the biggest taxidermy shows around, right? what did you think I was talking about?

Point being...the tags are the draw- or the Blue Fox Brown Trout Vibrax- which they no longer sell - and I am seriously sad about that- which make us bite. But who is doing the fishing?

It would just be really cool if this kind of a draw- if it has to happen- happened at some high school some night, when no one but the wildlife would benefit from their own deaths. No?


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

Amen Steep and Deep.

The purpose for these tags is to draw people to the convention. You can make your arguments about where the money goes, the odds of drawing, the benifits to sportsmen and the wildlife etc but the purpose of these 200 tags is to help the wildlife groups get people to the convention. That is why you can apply even though you are on a waiting list, that is why the points don't count and that is why you have to go to the convention to be entered in the draw. It's all about getting people to the booths and signing people up.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Of course the purpose is to get people to the show. :? Last year Gov Huntsman pledged several MILLION dollars to purchase some land next to the Green River, he said this money is a direct result of the MILLIONS this expo brought into Utah's economy. Airlines, hotels, taxi's, eating establishments, outfitters, taxidermists, hunting magazines, Energy Solutions Arena, etc, and all th employees of said businesses benefited from this expo. Why is that bad? It makes it much easier to get money from the suits on the hill when they see the money brought in from their 'investment'. The benefits would be MUCH smaller if it were held at a high school. 200 tags raise millions, sounds like a great investment with a great return. You're right, what a terrible deal. :roll:


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## InvaderZim (Sep 7, 2007)

chet said:


> yah it's a rip off, just let pro and I play it out, we'll let ya know how it goes :lol:


Exactly, in fact I heard the whole thing is being called off! :wink:


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

That is a great argument Pro. I do see some great benefits to some Utah businesses. Unfortunately, that isn't enough to justify it to me as a sportsman/taxpayer. Delta is rumored to need to make cuts and the potential loss of a hub received speculation/pledge that, if needed, Huntsman would push for tax incentives or something to keep them here. That could be a great thing, or it could be a total bust. I don't know enough about it to even guess. Surely, though, the governor will do what is in his best interest and hopefully the interests of the state. That often means doing things that benefit businesses. I don't need the Salt Lake hotels to be full, the taxi drivers to have passengers, etc. beyond the tax base they provide for the state to offset your and my personal taxes which all lump in and pay for the stuff as a whole. Including, but not limited to the tags we buy every year no matter how many conventions are held - be it 0 or 20. But since you can't even begin to compare that one Expo event to the thousands of things that generate taxes in Utah- including my sorry excuse for work - you can't draw the conclusion that what is good for business is good for conservation or wildlife. You honestly think fewer people would show up just for the tags? Hey if you really want to draw and you think your chances would be better at the high school then why not? You obviously have other interests and conservation is just one of proabably a few. How could you say as someone who is involved in the guiding business that this whole deal is about conservation? Are there going to be conservation discounts so that if I buy something the dealer will give 50% of his profit to Utah wildlife? It seems - from a distance- trying to keep an open mind and not doing a very good job right now- like it is about money. Like everything else that is for sale. And you telling me the governor recognizes it only makes it seem more like money as that is what keeps him in office anyway. So- the Green River stuff went through? I hope so.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I heard the same thing. Too bad they will not be doing the drawing again, even though your chances were slim to none, at least your name was in the hat. I guess they will be issuing refund checks or refunding credit cards. :x  :shock: :|


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Of course the purpose is to get people to the show. :? Last year Gov Huntsman pledged several MILLION dollars to purchase some land next to the Green River, he said this money is a direct result of the MILLIONS this expo brought into Utah's economy. Airlines, hotels, taxi's, eating establishments, outfitters, taxidermists, hunting magazines, Energy Solutions Arena, etc, and all th employees of said businesses benefited from this expo. Why is that bad? It makes it much easier to get money from the suits on the hill when they see the money brought in from their 'investment'. The benefits would be MUCH smaller if it were held at a high school. 200 tags raise millions, sounds like a great investment with a great return. You're right, what a terrible deal. :roll:


The show should be able to stand on it's own. If the groups are good for sportsmen and offer a quality product, they won't need the tags to draw people and they would be taking the moral high ground. Instead they rely on the state to help them have a succesful show. This is another example of the state and these groups being too closely tied together.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Let me get this straight. You have no problem with hunting expo's, and you have no problem with the selling of these tags, but you do have a problem with selling these tags at a hunting expo, and believe it would somehow be 'more acceptable' to sell the at a high school. Is that right? I am completely lost here. Help me out. Why again is it bad for the hunting industry to bring in millions of tax revenue to the state, while allowing those in the 'biz' to profit at the same time? :? I seriously am confused here, please explain.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Let me get this straight. You have no problem with hunting expo's, and you have no problem with the selling of these tags, but you do have a problem with selling these tags at a hunting expo, and believe it would somehow be 'more acceptable' to sell the at a high school. Is that right? I am completely lost here. Help me out. Why again is it bad for the hunting industry to bring in millions of tax revenue to the state, while allowing those in the 'biz' to profit at the same time? :? I seriously am confused here, please explain.


I do have a problem with hunting expo's when they can't stand on thier own and need the state to help them out. I do have a problem with selling the tags the way they are selling them. I never said it is bad for the hunting industry to bring in money to the state.

These hunting groups should stand on thier own and if they can succeed then fine but they shouldn't need the state to help them out.

The ends don't always justify the means.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I have two questions Longfeather.

1. Why does the hunting expo NEED to stand alone?

2. What is wrong with the way there selling the tags?


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> I have two questions Longfeather.
> 
> 1. Why does the hunting expo NEED to stand alone?
> 
> 2. What is wrong with the way there selling the tags?


Answers.

1. Because they are private organizations and they shouldn't NEED special help to get people to attend their expo. The gun shows don't need the help, the travel trailer shows don't need the help, yet these sportsmen groups apperently do.

2. You have to go to the expo to be entered in the draw. Your points don't count and if you are on a waiting period you can still apply and the wildlife convention permits designated for the convention each year are deducted from the number of public drawing permits.

Again the sole purpose behind these tags is to get people to support the expo. If the expo can't stand on it's own maybe that is because there isnt' a demand for it. I personally believe they could stand on thier own but the people putting the expo on apperently don't feel that way.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> 1. Because they are private organizations and they shouldn't NEED special help to get people to attend their expo. The gun shows don't need the help, the travel trailer shows don't need the help, yet these sportsmen groups apperently do.


What makes you think the Expo can't stand alone? This expo is probably the biggest one and it has a lot of great booth for all people to enjoy. They have a concert, a fantastic drawing, etc.

This expo is bigger than the guns shows, the traveling trailer.



> 2. You have to go to the expo to be entered in the draw. Your points don't count and if you are on a waiting period you can still apply and the wildlife convention permits designated for the convention each year are deducted from the number of public drawing permits.


Everyone has an equal opportunity because there is no bonus points involved. These sells are for HABITAT. Are you against habitat too?


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > 1. Because they are private organizations and they shouldn't NEED special help to get people to attend their expo. The gun shows don't need the help, the travel trailer shows don't need the help, yet these sportsmen groups apperently do.
> 
> 
> What makes you think the Expo can't stand alone? This expo is probably the biggest one and it has a lot of great booth for all people to enjoy. They have a concert, a fantastic drawing, etc.
> ...


Everyone has an equal opportunity because there is no bonus points involved. These sells are for HABITAT. Are you against habitat too?[/quote:1vk2khso]

Dear non-reader..... I said *I* felt they could stand alone. I never said I was against habitat.

These tags are for getting the people to the show the justification behind them is the money goes to habitat. If the purpose for these tags was for habitat then they wouldn't be tied to the show.

*Disconnect the tags from the show and the tags could stand alone*. The money could still go to habitat.

Why do these groups feel the need for the tags to be tied to the show? is the question you should be asking.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Dear non-reader..... I said I felt they could stand alone. I never said I was against habitat.
> 
> These tags are for getting the people to the show the justification behind them is the money goes to habitat. If the purpose for these tags was for habitat then they wouldn't be tied to the show.
> 
> ...


The expo is the perfect place to sell the tags because more people than ever will be at the Expo because its a HUGE deal. These tags are a HUGE deal and you need to have the tags at a HUGE event to generate MORE habitat money.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Longfeather said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > > 1. Because they are private organizations and they shouldn't NEED special help to get people to attend their expo. The gun shows don't need the help, the travel trailer shows don't need the help, yet these sportsmen groups apperently do.
> ...


Dear non-reader..... I said *I* felt they could stand alone. I never said I was against habitat.

These tags are for getting the people to the show the justification behind them is the money goes to habitat. If the purpose for these tags was for habitat then they wouldn't be tied to the show.

*Disconnect the tags from the show and the tags could stand alone*. The money could still go to habitat.

Why do these groups feel the need for the tags to be tied to the show? is the question you should be asking.[/quote:3gto7d97]

It's a 2 way street. The more tags they have, the more people that will show up and the more the tags will go for.

I can understand people having heartache with the actual existence of the tags, but the way they are sold??? I'm pretty sure I want them to retrieve as much publicity and money as possible.

If the Mule Deer Foundation gets 60 tags a year (Facetious), they are going to sell those tags, regardless of location and MOST of it will go back to the state to IMPROVE *OUR* hunting. So if they sold every one of them at small venues, I would guess they would get A LOT less than they would if they sold or raffled a good majority of them at a highly publicized event, such as this one. In the end, they don't get ANY MORE tags, just a butt load more money.
:?: :?: :?:


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## tweedmadsen (Nov 16, 2007)

My two cents......

If your #1 priority is to raise the maximum amount of money for habitat from the 200 tags, then you would be better off if you did not require that you had to attend the show in order to apply.

How many people in St. George, Panguitch, Logan, Colorado, AZ, Brazil, Kenya want to apply for these tags, but can't because it doesn't make sense to spend all the money to go to the convention? 

My guess is that if you just did the tags on a stand alone basis on the internet (like all the states raffle tags) you could get 2-3x as many people to apply--thus raising 2-3x as much money for the habitat.

At the end of the day, this is the best solution for those that organized the show, not the way to maximize money from the tags for habitat.


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## tweedmadsen (Nov 16, 2007)

Think about all the people who come to the show just so they can apply for the tags.

If I drive up from St. George, I have to spend $150 in gas and then $15 bucks or whatever to get into the show.  Maybe I have to get a hotel if I'm from farther away.

If I only have $300 to spend on applying for tags, then suddenly I have to spend 50% of that money just for the privilege of applying--and none of that money goes toward habitat. 

Let people come to the show because they want to, not because they have to in order to apply for the tags.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Dear non-reader..... I said I felt they could stand alone. I never said I was against habitat.
> >
> > These tags are for getting the people to the show the justification behind them is the money goes to habitat. If the purpose for these tags was for habitat then they wouldn't be tied to the show.
> >
> ...


More people would participate if you didn't have to go to the show. It's pretty simple to understand, the easier it is to participate the more people who will participate.

Again, these tags aren't about raising money for habitat, they are about getting people to the expo.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Longfeather said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > > Dear non-reader..... I said I felt they could stand alone. I never said I was against habitat.
> ...


I see your point.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Longfeather is somewhat correct. But, very little money is being made from the tags themselves. The tags are there to get people to drive from "St. George" or fly in from Boston. If you spend $150.00 in gas, plus room and board, that is money generated for the state of Utah. Get several thousand people to do the same, and you are talking 'real' money, not the 'chump' change from the tags. Then when sportsmen go to the state legislature/governor for money to purchase key winter range and keep it from being developed, they see the financial benefits of doing so from the MILLIONS raised by sportsmen that bring in BIG money. This Expo is the biggest in the country, it is three separate conservation groups that have joined forces to generate MILLIONS of dollars that WILL/DO benefit wildlife. FNAWS holds their national convention at this event, bringing in people from all over the world, spending big money on tags from all over the globe. The MDF holds their national convention at this show as well, generating big bucks for big bucks. The primary reason these National groups have agreed to hold their national conventions in Salt Lake City is because of the number of people that attend, in part by offering these tags. 

It's called basic economics, and like it or not, politics is a HUGE part of wildlife management. When sportsmen prove they are vital to the local economy and that if they don't get something back they will go elsewhere, the suits on the hill are more willing to part with 'their' money. And, venders aren't going to pay for a booth if the attendance is low, and people won't attend if there aren't very many venders. Having these national conventions, along with the added enticement of these tags, and the circle is complete. The proof is in the pudding, look at the amount of money ponied up by Gov. Huntsman AFTER the expo in 2007, he admitted it was a direct result of the money brought into Utah from this show. What 'real' money would be generated by selling these tags at a high school? What 'benefits' would be garnered by this over just leaving them as part of the 'regular' LE draws? We have to look at the big picture, which entails MONEY as a major factor in wildlife management and the possibility of hunting being a viable entity down the road as far as the expenses of managing wildlife in ways that benefit hunters/non-hunters alike.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

They could hold the events without the tags and still have a succesful event. Then they would also have the moral high ground which would increase there standing with sportsmen. As it is they are creating another area that divides sportsmen. It's ironic that a group titled Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife creates so much devision among sportsmen.

Why do people attend the expo? is it for the tags or for the groups. If these groups represent sporstman and the people value the group then people will support them tags or no tags. 

There is no need for the state to have to underwrite the expo. I'm quite surprised the animal rights groups haven't sued to have tags to support thier group. It would be a bit ironic if that happened. 

If what Pro says is true, that the attendance would go down without the tags, then the wildlife groups need to take a look at the product they are offering instead of having the state prop them up. The result would be a better expo, more responsive groups and a more united group of sportsman with higher attendance numbers. By the state proping up the expo with tags, they are artificially creating a demand for the expo which is a disservice to everyone involved. 

As far as politics goes a letter to your state representive supporting wildlife management is worth more then any convention. 

Hey, if it generates money it must be good


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

> My guess is that if you just did the tags on a stand alone basis on the internet (like all the states raffle tags) you could get 2-3x as many people to apply--thus raising 2-3x as much money for the habitat.


While this idea seems good at first look, we already pay sci-nevada $10 per tag applied for just to enter the state drawing, none of that $ goes to wildlife, So if each tag was $5 at the show, when the drawing went to the internet, each tag would cost $15 each($5 for the tag and $10 for SCI-neveda to process it, that alone will reduce the amount raised for conservation.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Longfeather, in my final response to this thread I ask: Do you really believe a letter/e-mail from you/me carries more weight than money brought into the state AND letters/e-mails by me/others? Have you ever been involved in politics? Why does this show need to "stand on it's own"? Why can't we have a 'combined' event that appeals to MANY different sportsmen? Why is that so wrong? Why is generating MILLIONS of dollars that directly benefit wildlife "divide" hunters? Could it be because a certain percentage of hunters are unhappy with things regardless of who/why/how things are done, simply because it wasn't their idea or done their way?

I believe this expo is GREAT for Utah wildlife and GREAT for Utah hunters! I'll be there all 4 days, stop by and we can chat about the *pro*s/cons of the whole deal. I'll be at the UBA booth.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> > My guess is that if you just did the tags on a stand alone basis on the internet (like all the states raffle tags) you could get 2-3x as many people to apply--thus raising 2-3x as much money for the habitat.
> 
> 
> While this idea seems good at first look, we already pay sci-nevada $10 per tag applied for just to enter the state drawing, none of that $ goes to wildlife, So if each tag was $5 at the show, when the drawing went to the internet, each tag would cost $15 each($5 for the tag and $10 for SCI-neveda to process it, that alone will reduce the amount raised for conservation.


The tags don't cost $5. That is the cost to apply. If you draw, the tags cost thier regular full price. So if you had the nevada company process the draw the application cost would double but, using Mojo's numbers, you would raise 2-3x as much money,


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Longfeather said:


> The tags don't cost $5. That is the cost to apply. If you draw, the tags cost thier regular full price. So if you had the nevada company process the draw the application cost would double but, using Mojo's numbers, you would raise 2-3x as much money,


That may be the WORST use of 'math' I ever witnessed! :? :roll:


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Longfeather, in my final response to this thread I ask: Do you really believe a letter/e-mail from you/me carries more weight than money brought into the state AND letters/e-mails by me/others? Have you ever been involved in politics? Why does this show need to "stand on it's own"? Why can't we have a 'combined' event that appeals to MANY different sportsmen? Why is that so wrong? Why is generating MILLIONS of dollars that directly benefit wildlife "divide" hunters? Could it be because a certain percentage of hunters are unhappy with things regardless of who/why/how things are done, simply because it wasn't their idea or done their way?
> 
> I believe this expo is GREAT for Utah wildlife and GREAT for Utah hunters! I'll be there all 4 days, stop by and we can chat about the *pro*s/cons of the whole deal. I'll be at the UBA booth.


*Pro, I'm not against the expo. I'm against the state proping up the expo.* Why is it that if someone doesn't agree with your point of view they are the one being unreasonable? Have all the expos you want to have but do it because there is a demand for the expo. I say the expo would be better served not having the tags.

I've made my arguments and they are valid. If you can't address the issue fine but don't tell me they aren't valid just because the expo raises millions of dollars.


proutdoors said:


> Longfeather said:
> 
> 
> > The tags don't cost $5. That is the cost to apply. If you draw, the tags cost thier regular full price. So if you had the nevada company process the draw the application cost would double but, using Mojo's numbers, you would raise 2-3x as much money,
> ...


$10/$5=2 which is double. It's called second grade math give it a try.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Longfeather said:
> 
> 
> > The tags don't cost $5. That is the cost to apply. If you draw, the tags cost thier regular full price. So if you had the nevada company process the draw the application cost would double but, using Mojo's numbers, you would raise 2-3x as much money,
> ...


Sorry Guys I didn't make myself clear in my previous post so I will clear that up now. 

I am perfectly aware that the tags cost their full price IF YOU DRAW them, I was referring to cost going up to apply for them if for say SCI-Nevada managed the draw process for them.

Longfeather, Mine and your numbers are off buddy, no matter how many people put in for a chance to draw a tag (for say) $10 per application (current cost of one) that raises no more money for wildlife since THERE ARE STILL ONLY 200 tags being applied for. Those $10 dollar fees go to SCI-Nevada, a private company, thats not even an Utah company, not to wildlife.

If fact an internet only draw would cost communities, and the state revenue since people wouldn't have to travel to the show in the place. Pro said it best in the following post.



proutdoors said:


> Last year Gov Huntsman pledged several MILLION dollars to purchase some land next to the Green River, he said this money is a direct result of the MILLIONS this expo brought into Utah's economy. Airlines, hotels, taxi's, eating establishments, outfitters, taxidermists, hunting magazines, Energy Solutions Arena, etc, and all the employees of said businesses benefited from this expo.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Are you wyo2ut in disguise? :?

Why can *you* disagree with me, yet I can't disagree with you? :roll: I am DONE 'dancing' with you on this. I think this expo, and the tags involved is GREAT for Utah's wildlife and sportsmen. Agree or disagree, I will be at the expo every day, stop by if you feel like it, I'll by you a coke. 8)

As for the math, the $10.00 goes to a PRIVATE Nevada company, the DWR makes NOTHING on that fee. Glad all that math getting an EE degree from the U of U is paying off for me. :mrgreen: :wink:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Longfeather said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > I have two questions Longfeather.
> ...


So I went back thru reading the posts and I will categorize the Expo's detractor's arguments against the expo selling tags as the following:

They don't like the idea of having to go to the show to apply in the drawing, no matter that to do it over the internet would cost everyone applying more $ money to do so all the while denying tax revenue to the host communities that is generated by the expo. Tax revenue that in and of itself might seem like a lot at the moment until they are asked to make any budget shortfalls out of their own pockets in taxes. 
People would come to the Expo no matter what, no tags would deter a few but most sportsmen will attend anyway.

Final conclusion quit your whining; direct your energies to more important issues like keeping the democratic anti-gun/hunters out of office. :!:

This was in no way an offer to continue a frivolous debate with the fore mentioned detractors.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

I work with a guy who doesn't hunt and explaining all of this to him - including OIL's, outfitters, guides, raffled 100 thousand dollar tags etc. is almost embarrassing. The whole thing makes little sense from an outside perspective. Don't bother asking what you think the threats to hunting and fishing's future are- it is commercialism plain and simple. It is pimping wildlife for 1000 reasons other than the simplicity of being in the field. The Outdoors convention just held here received information on the decline in youth in the interest of outdoor activities. Kids stated generally that it was just too much work to go outside when they could experience things vicariously through the internet, TV, etc. When you need a lawyer, a politician, and a big bank account, and gear to the roof to go hunt somewhere don't be surpised if kids are turned off by the whole thing. We used to hunt animals and things you could eat, not tags for a shot on the Henry zoo. Don't kid yourself into thinking that conservation mixes well with politics or business, and the expo is another unfortunate example. Google knows all- help ease my mind by showing me where the millions pledged by the governor last year hit the ground. There is NO direct correlation between the show and some exact dollar amount or actual clout for sportsman or wildlife- that is some rainbow that you paint and I want to see where the gold hits the ground. Can't wait for the exact same press release this April or so. Headline should read: Like Pro said- Millions spent because of hotel and gas revenue to attend Expo on direct actual land purchases that are open to everyone for wildlife viewing, wetland protection, hunting ability etc. All because of the magical Expo which makes the angels weep as it is so focused on conservation and helping furry big eyed animals be happy! 

If one really cares about huntings future then the appropriate comprimise is not to feed the commercial animal that makes a mockery of your own "positive" efforts. A conservation group is one thing, a conservation group surrounded by advertisements for outfitters, products, and endless shots of trophy animals is a business. It's like profit and not for profit things - simple economics, like you said. If you had to place a sportsmans group in that kind of comparison where would some of them land? This particular event would not fall in the economics of a not for profit venture - it is completely a for profit venture and as such would not glean the benefits of whatever shelter was offered - in this case tags for nothing. Oh yes- the millions and millions of blah blah pledged sometime down the road blah blah bull shovel. Though money may have been pledged and may even have been partially or wholly paid, it is no long term or every year gaurantee by a long shot. I venture to guess that the tags will always be available to this event. Once someone/thing gets their hands on that kind of gold it is hard to let go. Similarly hard to let go of even the herd objectives in an area where more hunters could have a chance to hunt public land once it is locked up like Hogle. 

As others have pointed out. The Expo is a thing that could and should exist without the tags. Nothing like playing host to every other state and their wants and needs- yes, Utah is the center of the world for pyramid and the like. I ought to set up a Noni or Amway booth as the suckers will be in force right? I guess as long as I'm complaining about not seeing the true vision I ought to also remind people that sportsmans groups also rob us of other tags under similar premises. What a joke. So since it is a "national convention" you ought to get the other states to pony up their tags as well- oh yeah they are too smart for that. Well we can always go to their expos funded by their state tags right? right? Maybe you should help them see the light to make their herds better since they have so much trouble getting quality hunting in states like CO, WY, and Idaho. Hmmmm, maybe they didn't get the memo.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Well said, SteepNDeep.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> I will be at the expo every day, stop by if you feel like it, I'll by you a coke.


Where ya gonna be?


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

I don't know Wyo2Ut. But if he agrees with me he can't be all bad.

Pro, you can disagree with me all you want. It's a different point of view. Your focused on the money that is generated and there is alot of money that is generated. However, I believe the state uses the tags to prop up the expo and the expo uses the tags as a crutch. Everyone involved would be better served without the tie-in of the tags.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> I work with a guy who doesn't hunt and explaining all of this to him - including OIL's, outfitters, guides, raffled 100 thousand dollar tags etc. is almost embarrassing. The whole thing makes little sense from an outside perspective. Don't bother asking what you think the threats to hunting and fishing's future are- it is commercialism plain and simple. It is pimping wildlife for 1000 reasons other than the simplicity of being in the field. The Outdoors convention just held here received information on the decline in youth in the interest of outdoor activities. Kids stated generally that it was just too much work to go outside when they could experience things vicariously through the internet, TV, etc. When you need a lawyer, a politician, and a big bank account, and gear to the roof to go hunt somewhere don't be surpised if kids are turned off by the whole thing. We used to hunt animals and things you could eat, not tags for a shot on the Henry zoo. Don't kid yourself into thinking that conservation mixes well with politics or business, and the expo is another unfortunate example. Google knows all- help ease my mind by showing me where the millions pledged by the governor last year hit the ground. There is NO direct correlation between the show and some exact dollar amount or actual clout for sportsman or wildlife- that is some rainbow that you paint and I want to see where the gold hits the ground. Can't wait for the exact same press release this April or so. Headline should read: Like Pro said- Millions spent because of hotel and gas revenue to attend Expo on direct actual land purchases that are open to everyone for wildlife viewing, wetland protection, hunting ability etc. All because of the magical Expo which makes the angels weep as it is so focused on conservation and helping furry big eyed animals be happy!
> 
> If one really cares about huntings future then the appropriate comprimise is not to feed the commercial animal that makes a mockery of your own "positive" efforts. A conservation group is one thing, a conservation group surrounded by advertisements for outfitters, products, and endless shots of trophy animals is a business. It's like profit and not for profit things - simple economics, like you said. If you had to place a sportsmans group in that kind of comparison where would some of them land? This particular event would not fall in the economics of a not for profit venture - it is completely a for profit venture and as such would not glean the benefits of whatever shelter was offered - in this case tags for nothing. Oh yes- the millions and millions of blah blah pledged sometime down the road blah blah bull shovel. Though money may have been pledged and may even have been partially or wholly paid, it is no long term or every year gaurantee by a long shot. I venture to guess that the tags will always be available to this event. Once someone/thing gets their hands on that kind of gold it is hard to let go. Similarly hard to let go of even the herd objectives in an area where more hunters could have a chance to hunt public land once it is locked up like Hogle.
> 
> As others have pointed out. The Expo is a thing that could and should exist without the tags. Nothing like playing host to every other state and their wants and needs- yes, Utah is the center of the world for pyramid and the like. I ought to set up a Noni or Amway booth as the suckers will be in force right? I guess as long as I'm complaining about not seeing the true vision I ought to also remind people that sportsmans groups also rob us of other tags under similar premises. What a joke. So since it is a "national convention" you ought to get the other states to pony up their tags as well- oh yeah they are too smart for that. Well we can always go to their expos funded by their state tags right? right? Maybe you should help them see the light to make their herds better since they have so much trouble getting quality hunting in states like CO, WY, and Idaho. Hmmmm, maybe they didn't get the memo.


I'll sum in up for everyone who's eyes crossed trying to read all that by condensing it into one sentence. They are against the commercialization of hunting and outdoor activities.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Against commercialization of hunting on backs of wildlife or public. Just leave wild and public lands off of the open market- and especially the private, club type market...subsidized etc. And after all that typing I hope I get offered a Coke too!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> Don't kid yourself into thinking that conservation mixes well with politics or business, and the expo is another unfortunate example. Google knows all- help ease my mind by showing me where the millions pledged by the governor last year hit the ground. There is NO direct correlation between the show and some exact dollar amount or actual clout for sportsman or wildlife- that is some rainbow that you paint and I want to see where the gold hits the ground. Can't wait for the exact same press release this April or so. Headline should read: Like Pro said- Millions spent because of hotel and gas revenue to attend Expo on direct actual land purchases that are open to everyone for wildlife viewing, wetland protection, hunting ability etc. All because of the magical Expo which makes the angels weep as it is so focused on conservation and helping furry big eyed animals be happy!


Figure out for yourself what to google smart guy. I'll give you a hint; land bear Flaming Gorge. Have fun! No rainbow, just FACTS!



> If one really cares about huntings future then the appropriate comprimise is not to feed the commercial animal that makes a mockery of your own "positive" efforts.


Great, another forum member that gets to decide if *I* truly care about huntings future. :roll:



> As others have pointed out. The Expo is a thing that could and should exist without the tags.


It could exist w/o the tags, but the tags are a great way to increase interest, attendance, AND gives sportsmen access to tags that otherwise wouldn't be available.

Weatherby, not sure what the booth number will be, but it will be the UBA booth, just yell something about how great hunting spikes statewide will be, I'll find you. :twisted: :wink:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> True enough minus the outdoor retail business. Just leave wild and public lands off of the open market- and especially the private, club type market...subsidized etc. *And after all that typing I hope I get offered a Coke too!*


Come on down, it's on me. Dang, I may go broke at this thing, between all the tags I applied for and buying cokes for you guys. 8)


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> SteepNDeep said:
> 
> 
> > True enough minus the outdoor retail business. Just leave wild and public lands off of the open market- and especially the private, club type market...subsidized etc. *And after all that typing I hope I get offered a Coke too!*
> ...


Whens the expo over with, I'm coming back into town Friday.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

After you said it, I thought I was bright, but I can't find it with your clues. I added variations with Huntsman, conservation and no go. Would you link it? It will be more refreshing for me than the Coke. Politicians promising a lot right now - tis the season. Would love to see that some past promises actually happened. Restore some faith for me, please. 

See there- I asked nicely.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Mojo, the Expo is Feb 6-9 at the Salt Palace.

SteepNDeep, the DWR with funds approved by Huntsman went to purchase land on the Green River that SITLA was going to sell to a developer. It was heavily covered by the media and discussed at length here as well. Now you can buy me a coke. :mrgreen:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Mojo, the Expo is Feb 6-9 at the Salt Palace.
> 
> SteepNDeep, the DWR with funds approved by Huntsman went to purchase land on the Green River that SITLA was going to sell to a developer. It was heavily covered by the media and discussed at length here as well. Now you can buy me a coke. :mrgreen:


Roger that, I'll be down and look you guys up.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

http://wildlife.utah.gov/news/07-05/little_hole.php

Is this the right one? The little hole purchase? Victory indeed. I like keeping things open and no complaints about that. If this is it, I am missing the tie in to the Expo or Huntsman. Help me again while I look for change to buy the Coke.

---Wait maybe I am seeing it. If this is right- are you saying that Huntsman let them spend their money on the land? He approved the purchase?


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

From one of the links off the article:

"Questar Exploration and Production gave the DWR $400,000 of the money used to make the purchase, Karpowitz said. The rest of the money came from the Utah Reclamation, Mitigation and Conservation Commission and from hunting and fishing license fees."

The purchase price was 1.6 or something like that. This all the right stuff? This is the Huntsman Expo Millions? What is the Rec/Mit/Conservation budget and other stuff? Would the money have been there anyway? What is the specific tie in here to the Expo?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Gov Huntsman appropriated this money due to the money revenue from the Expo. The 'power' players from the groups putting on the expo lobbied the state for this money, and because they were able to show the money brought into the state from the expo and hunting in general, the state was willing to 'part' with this money. Remember, this is politically, like it or not the scratch my back I'll scratch your back plays a big part in how things get done. Lots of behind the scene lobbying gets things done.


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## neckcollar (Dec 30, 2007)

So if my math is correct 47,861 chances were put in on 200 tags
earning $239,305 just for a chance to get a premo tag. That doesn't even count the tags that are auctioned off. Yet some how our deer herds suffer? Whos really winning here, is it us the hunters, or the dwr. Tags may not have gone up this year, but the cost to put in for them did. How much money do you think they really need. And why the he(( did the bookcliffs go to draw only on the archery after they closed it down for 2 years, its still considered not a trophy unit?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

What I find interesting is that the Wildlife Board was told in their Sept meeting that the tags brought in almost $1 million. (Miles Morretti, CEO of MDF, page 22 of the Sept Board minutes) So with only 45,000 applicants at $5 a pop, how do they come up with $1,000,000? 

The truth is these monies are not earmarked for Habitat. They can be used for any purpose, from paying rent on the Salt Palace to buying a chunk of ground, to buying prime rib for buddies. The monies generated from the 200 Convention tags have NO mandates on how the monies must be used. That is where many of us have heart burn. There is no transparency in where these monies go or how they are used. The Wildlife Board gave them the permits on "good faith". 

As for the Green River parcel, $400,000 came from Questar, $400,000 came from YOUR license fees (Habitat Council monies generated from every hunting license) and the rest from the Watershed budget. Lobbying might have been part of it, but I doubt it came from the Convention (the DWR was attempting to secure this parcel long before the Convention).

RMEF and NWTF were part of the original Convention proposal, yet they were cut out of the loop after the tags were secured......

Oh well, it isn't going to change any time soon so we might as well play the Utah Lotto.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Packout said:


> What I find interesting is that the Wildlife Board was told in their Sept meeting that the tags brought in almost $1 million. (Miles Morretti, CEO of MDF, page 22 of the Sept Board minutes) So with only 45,000 applicants at $5 a pop, how do they come up with $1,000,000?
> 
> The truth is these monies are not earmarked for Habitat. They can be used for any purpose, from paying rent on the Salt Palace to buying a chunk of ground, to buying prime rib for buddies. The monies generated from the 200 Convention tags have NO mandates on how the monies must be used. That is where many of us have heart burn. There is no transparency in where these monies go or how they are used. The Wildlife Board gave them the permits on "good faith".
> 
> ...


Maybe they made close to 800k from silent auction items? :mrgreen: Convention tags are a little hard for me to swallow , due to many of the facts you just pointed out packout. But like you said, it aint gonna change any time soon.


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## Edward K. Galleck (Dec 15, 2007)

Pro
Don't let the facts get in the way of your point. For your information, Huntsman did very little ,if anything, in regards to the Little Hole mess. The Little Hole fiasco came down to Jim Karpowitz having to sit in a crowded room of bidders trying desperately to purchase land from another quasi-state agency [SITLA] at a public auction. It was an embarrassing moment watching one government agency auction off critical winter range to the highest bidder while the head of another state government agency [Karpowitz] had to sit there and make sure he had the funds to outbid everybody in the room. Huntsman could have taken Karpowitz and Kevin Carter (head of SITLA), into a private meeting months before the auction and settle the thing. But Huntsman refused to do that, because SITLA and the Utah PTA went on a media crusade to say that the DWR was shortchanging SITLA and ultimately taking away from revenue that should be going to Utah school children. Questar Gas, as well as others including Trout Unlimited, ultimately kicked in money to help the DWR cover the cost of the purcase. To somehow tie the Little Hole purchase to funds raised from the convention tags is just plain bizarre and I think it shows that you really don't know as much as you claim to know.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Where'd everybody go? John Wayne? I think you just got hit with a volley. Nothing to add? Was there another something arranged by Huntsman with millions from and because of the Expo which justifies supporting random businesses on the backs of wildlife? Or what about the sportsmen who don't have a chance at those tags as they CAN'T attend, and yes those tags are missing from the draw. Every drop counts in that bucket. Why should anyone think it is OK to corral what belongs to everyone for the benefit of the few business people and enthusiasts who get to hold their tea party?

Almost seems like the BCS, as long as you're a


> 'power'


player...then you're good.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

As always PACKOUT is near genius with his observations.


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