# Knots



## jwalker (Jan 3, 2012)

Today was my first fly fishing mission by myself (third fly fishing trip overall). I didn't have anyone to help me. I took the advice from the many fly fisherman on this forum who strongly suggested getting as much time on the river to get acquainted with the skills. The first half of my trip didn't go so well. Tree snags (rookie mistake), rock snags (doh!) and worst of all, bad knots that led me to losing flies. 

I'm a little ashamed to admit that I'm bad with tying knots......actually not just bad, but just plain horrible. Once I got on the river, I quickly realized I forgot the knots my friend taught me last week. Some of the stuff I read on the internet said clinch knots for flies is basically all you need. Following that advice did not provide good results. For the most part I was nymphing. I did end up catching a few browns, rainbows, and a whitefish. (It was a blast by the way!) But I had two nymphs on one rig. My bottom one was the one that had the most strikes. But my bottom one was the one that got snapped off every time despite tying a good clinch knot. I noticed a few flew off during casts (crap). 

I know there are two ways to do the the two nymph rig system. I know guys who use the same leader to tie both nymphs with slip shot weights at the bottom (I don't know how to do that one). I know there are others who tie one nymph then use another leader tied to the hook. (that's what I did today). I had two small slip shot weights below my strike indicator (which I also forgot how to tie on correctly). But it got to the point I lost all my nymphs to fish and snags and lost most of my thin leader. (Which I also don't know how to tie to the thicker leader so I can keep on fishing.)

So to cut to the chase, I'm a fly fishing mess! Despite looking up numerous resources on the internet I feel no closer to finding a decent answer to my knots problem. I plan on sucking up my pride and visiting a fly shop for some help later this week. But it will be a few days. Therefore, I am reaching out to you wise men and women sages of fly fishing. ANY help at all would be greatly appreciated. A point in the right direction. Anything. I plan on hitting the river again tomorrow afternoon some time. 


Thanks in advance!

PS. Sorry for my long backstory, I tend to ramble on posts _(O)_


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## Fleigenbinder (Feb 3, 2010)

Good question! I believe if you can't tie good knots, you will never be a successful angler. I have done years of testing of all kinds of knots and have simplified things for myself. I have a really hard time even seeing the line unless I take my glasses off and then I have a 10X microscope! Also, while I have very nimble fingers from years of fingerpicking my guitar, tying knots can get real challenging at times.

In my testing, I used a simple swivel and made sure both ends were polished to the same surface smootheness. I would then tie two competing knots and pull. I would then retie and switch hands and try the same test again. I swiched hands to compensate for one hand having a better pull than the other.

Sorry for the long backstory but here are my findings.

To tie any fly, lure, hook, etc to the line I use a Palomar knot. This gives two lines going through the eye of the hook and gives addtional strength. It is basically a simple overhand knot and is easy to tie even in the dark. The only exception to using it is when the hook eye is so small that it will not accomodate going through the hook eye twice - in that case I use a improved clinch knot. It works ok but is not as strong as the palomar.

Here is a link showing how to tie it:

http://www.netplaces.com/fishing/tying- ... r-knot.htm

There are also some good videos on U Tube.

For joining similar monofiliments, I use a Triple Surgeons knot as shown here:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/ga ... no?photo=1

I use this to add leader, tippit or line to existing line or for joining monofiliments.

Modifying the Triple Surgeons Knot just a bit to make the Triple Surgeons Loop makes a perfect loop for loop to loop connections, whether connecting monofiliments or fly line to mono or fluropolymer.

Those knots; Palomar, Improved Clinch, Surgeons knot and 
surgeons loop cover 98% of all the fishing I use.

As to tying tandem droppers, there are a lot of theorys out there and I think they all have their advantages. Keeping things simple and strong however is paramount to me. Also be able to tie fast is important so to tie a double fly rig, I use about 24" of tippitt, I take the top fly and tie it on with a Palomar knot leaving a tag end long enough for the second (bottom) fly. I attach the bottom fly with a palomar knot. Your top fly will sit perpendicular to the line and the bottom fly will be in line.

Braided lines, use different knots but that is for a different thread.

Remember to wet the knot with saliva and tighten slowly. Then pull on the knot hard you will be amazed at how often for many reasons the knot just comes apart. This also tells you if the line is rotton from sun or other hazards.

I may lose fish and break line but it is very, very rare (as in almost never happens) that the failure is in the knot.

I hope that helps you. If you need further help or explanations, pm me and I will be happy to assist you.

Fleigenbinder


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## jwalker (Jan 3, 2012)

Sorry for the delay, Fleigenbinder. I wanted to say thank you for your detailed and well-thought reply to my post. It has served as a good reference for me when I've been on the river lately. Thanks again! I am in your debt!


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## ScottyP (Sep 12, 2007)

A palomar is a good knot and I use it a lot-- when bass fishing or using streamers or other larger hooks. They are just not practical for small dries however. It is difficult enough to get the tippet threaded through the eye without doubling it over. I use a simple clinch knot almost exclusively on small flies. Just make sure you lube the knot with saliva and tighten it with a quick pull to seat the knot. Test your knots before casting and after landing a fish. You are most likely breaking off your flies by snagging them on your back cast or snapping your back cast like a whip. Use either a blood knot or a double surgeons knot for connecting line to line (building up your leader). Don't horse fish in, don't set your drag too tight, and most importantly, keep your rod tip high when playing a fish. This allows the rod tip to flex better and protect your tippet and knot.


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## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

I agree with Scotty on this one. A Palomar is an incredibly strong knot that is simple to tie and holds as well or better than any other knot. But as was stated, it is required to double the line through the eye of the hook. This is virtually impossible with any fly smaller than a 14 or 16. This especially becomes a problem if you fish tailwaters such as the Provo, the Weber, or the Green where the vast majority of flies you fish are a size 16 and smaller. Another problem with the Palomar is it uses a lot of line to tie the fly. This will cut into a tapered leader.quickly as well as affecting the distances between flies and split shot on a traditional indicator nymph rig. if you are fishing a bounce rig it is impossible as the tag ends you tie the flies onto starts out at only 4 inches and gets shorter with every fly change. Therefore I stick with a plain old clinch knot. Forget the improved version. As long as you tie it correctly and always lube it, it works great. Yes a Palomar is stronger but the difference is tiny and will make re-rigging and tying flies A LOT less frustrating.

When it comes to bigger flies such as hoppers, stones, and streamers I prefer the non slip mono loop. This knot holds 100% strength unlike most loop knots out there such as a Duncan loop. Loop knots allow the fly to move much more actively in or on the water. It was designed by tarpon fisherman to land 150 pound plus tarpon on15 to 20 lb. test. Here's a video on how to tie it.


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## Fleigenbinder (Feb 3, 2010)

Ahem....as I said:

"The only exception to using it [the palomar knot] is when the hook eye is so small that it will not accomodate going through the hook eye twice - in that case I use a improved clinch knot. It works ok but is not as strong as the palomar."

Respectfully,
Fleigenbinder


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## doody (Apr 2, 2009)

The only 3 that I use are a cinch knot, surgeon's knot, and a double fisherman's knot. Out of those three, the surgeons seems to be the weakest and if I get a break it's usually there.


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## poiboy (Nov 18, 2010)

If you haven't heard of the davy knot, created by Davy Wotton, then google it. It's the quickest, easiest knot to tie, you lose very little line off the tag end, and it holds well. The knot is so low profile leaving not much of a head at all. When attaching my flies to the tippet, I use nothing else.


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