# The need to END Harvest Objective



## goofy elk

Well, it has become painfully obvious to the houndsman of Utah what has happened
to lion population's,,,,,Other than 3 or 4 LE only unit's, Lowest I've seen in 20+ year's.

There are some Harvest unit's boardering on zero lion's left, It's time for changes to
be made. We need to rally together at the RAC's and end harvest objective hunting,
at least for a while. I know for a fact this is being discussed at the DWR and an effort
is in the process to get SFW on board.......With a push, May-be we could get back
to Limited entery hunting only for a few year's.

I believe this is the first and most important step, Secondly, NO MORE harvesting of
female's.......PERIOD.


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## proutdoors

Sorry, but as long as deer populations struggle, and as long as there sheep transplants taking place, this sportsman will NOT support policies that will lead to increases in lion numbers. I'll refrain from typing what I would like to have happen to female lions. :|


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## weatherby25

> Sorry, but as long as deer populations struggle, and as long as there sheep transplants taking place, this sportsman will NOT support policies that will lead to increases in lion numbers.


+1


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## redleg

Goofy elk, You sound like the anti-hunters, who prey that large predators can eliminate the need for hunting, or guns. or the 'animal rights' advocates, who think the only purpose of deer, elk, moose, or antelope is as food for large predators.


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## goofy elk

Wooooooowwwwwww, Redleg.
Anti-hunting???? NOT!

Just a different type of managment, Don't know what you did yesterday but,,
we caught a nice Tom and killed it.

I've spent the last 12 year's chasing lion's 70 to 90 day's each and every year.

Lion's are not as big of issue with our deer and elk heard's as most people
think. For all you guy's worried about predator problem's, better focus on
the wolves. Now there is the REAL threat knocking on our door step.


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## Hound Inc.

Goofy Elk, I am game to do whatever it takes, we had the talk a few weeks back, I am on board.


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## cornerfinder

IMRHO take em all out. If you need to get a cat I seen two out by Cedar Fort. The fact that I have seen two in the day suggests a need to increase the harvest. Spoke to a man at the country store says that the game warden in the area confirms 22 on that little hill alone. You might try hunting out there. 


M


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## muleman

I agree that there needs to be a better management plan in place. You cant tell me there are still 17 lions to be killed on the Nebo west face without wiping out the population period. Maybe we should wipe out all the houses on winter range if you want your deer herds back..... Us houndsmen want the deer herds back also, because you see we need a nice deer population to support a few lions for us to chase.


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## Hound Inc.

Well Mule and Goofy, you can see what we are up against. The wolf will be here soon, and then you deer hunters will really see what low deer pop. is. This year is bad, I know of 6 femalw killed just on HO and a few more on LE. I hope this goes through, but I am leaning towards just being a Bear Hunter, and when I go Lion hunting I will just go for a nature walk with my dogs, because that is what I have done alot of this year.

-Hound


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## proutdoors

Let get this straight. Because wolves are on their way to Utah we shouold INCREASE the lion population? Help me out. :?


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## goofy elk

Muleman, I spent the week before last on the west face,Nebo. It look's like if
they take 4, that will be the end of the population there. 

That is exactly why this harvest objective is so ridiculous, the HO number's are
set higher than the total cat population on at least 50% of the unit's.

Hound Inc. , I'm very aware of what we are up against, It's very unfortunate
there are so many "ingnorant" and "uneducated" sport'sman out there that don't
know the truth about the lion world.

I've heard the low deer number's blamed on lion's to the extent that people begin to
believe that lion's are there sole enemy for no deer, this simply is not true.

Pro, What I mean about the wolves is,,,, Lion's are just a little scratch in the kitty box.
Lion's do not effect deer and elk population even remotly close to what is happening
right now in Idaho and wyoming.......Wolves are going to be the REAL threat...

A few more lion's won't make hardly any difference and then houndsman in are state
can enjoy there sport they love so much as well.


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## proutdoors

goofy elk said:


> Pro, What I mean about the wolves is,,,, Lion's are just a little scratch in the kitty box.
> Lion's do not effect deer and elk population even remotly close to what is happening
> right now in Idaho and wyoming.......Wolves are going to be the REAL threat...
> 
> A few more lion's won't make hardly any difference and then houndsman in are state
> can enjoy there sport they love so much as well.


I get what wolves are all about, and I am NOT a fan of the SOB's, but that does not mean I should want more lions on top of the wolves.

An adult lion kills 50+ deer a year. While I realize habitat is first/second/third on the cause of limited deer populations, having 'extra' predators does not help any either. Also, I will admit part of my bias against lions is based on my involvement with big horn sheep transplants. In the last year, lions have killed 4 rams out of 40 in the whole herd out here on the Stansbury's. That is 10% of the ram population, yet I have had talks with houndsmen who claim there are no lions anywhere near the sheep area(s). Yet two lions are now dead that didn't exist according to the lion guys. While 'only' 4 rams have been killed in the area, the deer herd is hurting so bad that the seasons are being shortened this fall. What do you suppose those lions (who didn't exist) ate the rest of the year? :?


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## muleman

I'm not against an objective on any unit. What I am against is outrageous, unrealistic objective numbers.


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## Finnegan

goofy elk said:


> It's very unfortunate there are so many "ingnorant" and "uneducated" sport'sman out there that don't know the truth about the lion world.


Unfortunate, for sure. But don't forget there's more than a few deer hunters who support you.

1. It's nonsense to think we can't have both lions and deer.

2. We haven't all converted to the holy gospel of ranch management of big game. :roll:

and a big #3

Time and again, Utah houndsmen have shown exceptional consideration for other hunters and we need to have enough class to return that consideration. I don't run hounds and I've only been on one lion hunt in my lifetime, but houndsmen have earned my respect by their conduct at the RACs and on the mountain, time and time again.


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## goofy elk

I understand that were they are trying to establish sheep heard's lion's will be a 
problem, and it's ok to deal with them as necesary in thoses area's.

Now the statment that an adult lion kill's 50+ deer a year for the most part is
simply not true, lion's are oppertunist and don't confine to one speices unless
nothing else is avalible.

For instance, The Manti lion's seem to live on elk more than deer by far, even
though deer are avalible, We alway's find more elk kill's there than deer.


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## proutdoors

Finnegan said:


> 2. We haven't all converted to the holy gospel of ranch management of big game. :roll:


 :roll: indeed! :roll:


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## goofy elk

Finn, your dead right, It is nonsense we can't have both.

It's all about balance, and the lion's have taken a bad wrap for a few
year's now. It's time to even it back out a little.


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## muleman

I know that on the kennecott property where the lions are being studied, both deer and lions are plenty.. Why? Because they have little human pressure and they both have the HABITAT that they need to survive.


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## Kevin D

Pro, there are those of us that would like to see the state manage for more than just big horned ungulates.


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## proutdoors

Kevin D said:


> Pro, there are those of us that would like to see the state manage for more than just big horned ungulates.


I kind of got that, but thanks for clarifying? :roll:


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## Theekillerbee

I'm in the same boat as pro. I have friends that have dogs and love to run cats, but the poor deer have been hit in too many ways to let the lions make any kind of comeback. Heck, I'm all for bulldozing down those gazillion dollar mansions that have filled the foothills as well! As far as wolves go, I think they look a lot like coyotes, but I also have a SSS philosophy about them as well 8)


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## Cold Track

Yeah, what Pro says! Screw everyone else and what they enjoy doing/hunting! 4 out of 40, that's a pretty good survival rate for a herd of animals in the wild! You guys that don't run hounds sure are professionals about lions, what they kill, and where they are. A lot better than the houndsmen in the state, who like most of you enjoy hunting other animals as well. But hey, us guys that know something about the actual lion population are a bunch of liars. By the way, one of those sheep was dead for a month or better, but go ahead and just chalk that one up to be another lion kill. Why don't you guys go plant sheep up on the cache above Tony's grove, that's as good of sheep country as where I guided sheep hunts in Wy., and there aren't any lions left up there! Of course then they might catch something from the evil ranchers sheep, the other enemy of the great ungulate hunters. You can't keep them in a glass box, they took a chance the second the trailer door opened and they hit the ground. Those bighorns may mean a lot to you, but a chance to run a lion occasionally means a lot to someone else.


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## Kevin D

They have been running Harvest Objective hunts on the Cache with no female sub quota for over ten years now. The first few years it was a slaughter on the lions. Now, they rarely even meet half their quota. Why?? Because the local population has nearly been eradicated. What has happened to the deer herd with the removal of all these cougars?? We started out with the deer population less than 70% of management objective and guess what? The deer numbers are still less than 70%. The lesson I've taken away from all this is that killing lions is not the answer to save a struggling deer herd. As a mangement strategy it has failed miserably.

On the other hand, I encourage groups like the SFW and FNAWS to plant more sheep. I call it a supplemental feeding program for lions. I get a warm and fuzzy feeling everytime a read about a new release. Thanks guys, keep 'em coming!


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## proutdoors

Kevin D said:


> I encourage groups like the SFW and FNAWS to plant more sheep. I call it a supplemental feeding program for lions. I get a warm and fuzzy feeling everytime a read about a new release. Thanks guys, keep 'em coming!


How is this attitude any better than mine? :? :roll:


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## goofy elk

This is the first time in several year's I've missed the split/harvest opener.

Normaly this week I would be in Wayne county hunting on Boulder, Fish L, Thousand L..

After the HUGE fall off of cat population's down in that area, I can honestly say I'm
glad to be home and not fighting the ,"cluster *u**", going on right now down there.

We are on the boarder line of losing the sport of pursuing lion's in much of our state.
That is why a change is needed for the 2009-2010 season to return to LE only for
a few year's,........Well, that's my opinion anyway.


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## cornerfinder

sorry to interupt but what is SFW and FNAWS?


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## goofy elk

SFW is, Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife, 

FNAWS is, Federation for North American Wild Sheep.


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## Finnegan

A return to limited entry lion hunts might help the situation, but it won't solve the problem. And the problem should concern deer hunters as much as it concerns lion hunters.

The ranch management crowd figures that managing deer is pretty much the same thing as managing livestock. In short, feed 'em, protect 'em, inoculate 'em and raise 'em for a desired market quality (antlers). If you can exercise the required control, it works great and that's why it's the only way to manage in states where most of the property is private. Hell, an entire industry has grown up around it, from specialized feeds to consulting firms that help the landowner design his property for maximum population and optimum hunting.

But if you raise deer like domestic animals, what you end up with is domestic animals. In some places where ranch management has been in practice for long enough, they don't even use grunt calls anymore. They use a noisemaker that imitates the sound of a corn spreader. You don't have to think about the merits of ranch management for very long to figure out who benefits most from it or why the largest hunter lobby in the state promotes it so strongly or why the "hunting industry" is all for it. Hell, anybody who's looking to make money from hunting would be crazy not to support it.

But there are still a bunch of us who appreciate the blessing of Utah's huge tracts of public land, who recognize the importance of the entire ecosystem on those public lands and who value hunting wild, predator-wary animals. The fact that wild management results in the challenge of more work for fewer trophies isn't a problem; it's part of the appeal. The fact that wild management also maximizes opportunity and the quality of the hunting experience is icing on the cake.

In the wild management model, top predators are a leading indicator of habitat health. So the decline in the state's lion population should be a wake up call to deer hunters and a serious concern. Deer hunters and lion hunters shouldn't be in opposition; we should be partners. The loss of habitat is one issue, but even more serious than that is the poor and declining condition of much of Utah's remaining habitat.

All deer hunters, regardless of how we believe deer should be managed, need to wake up to the fact that wiping out predators does nothing to improve habitat and so provides no real solution to the problem. And since healthy habitat allows for stable predator populations with minimal impact on deer populations, we have a clear choice. We can either do the anti's work for them by working against our hunting brothers, or take some responsibility and roll up our sleeves.


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## goofy elk

Finnegan,,,,,,,That is by far the BEST post I've read for a while!


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## muleman

I agree. GREAT post !!!


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## proutdoors

MY good friend skull crazy saw four wolves on the Henries today. Maybe we should increase the lion population down there to 'help' the deer out. :?


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## goofy elk

If there's 4 wolves on the Henry's, Well... they will do so much destuction to that deer
heard in a short period of time,,,,,,,, Utah'ns will be in shock what REAL preditor's do.


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## fixed blade XC-3

Lets put a season on coyotes. We all know they don't eat deer :? , and I'd like to see more of them.


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## proutdoors

goofy elk said:


> If there's 4 wolves on the Henry's, Well... they will do so much destuction to that deer
> heard in a short period of time,,,,,,,, Utah'ns will be in shock what REAL preditor's do.


It's not "if", they are there. skull krazy has been guiding deer/elk hunters for 15+ years and has seen more than his share of coyotes. If he says he saw wolves, he saw wolves!

I agree fixedblade, let's go hunting coyotes. I think the Henries is a good place to focus on. Try and get all the 100+ lb coyotes first!


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## coyoteslayer

o-|| o-|| I understand that it's nice to find lion tracks in every canyon when your running your dogs, but we need to have strict management on areas where the deer are way below objective.


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## goofy elk

Pro I've met doug, Last year while I was guiding elk on the Wasatch,,,

I must agree,,,,,He seem's credible. And the Henry's would be a playground
for wolves.


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## proutdoors

Doug said the wolves this morning were trail a herd of bison. He was unable to get video of them, but he took pix of their tracks in the snow and fresh scat.


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## coyoteslayer

Skull Crazy and stinky stomper need to shoot them with a 50 cal. That would be awesome to watch. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## goofy elk

It would be good if Skull get's that info and picture's to the DWR tomarrow.


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## luv2fsh&hnt

I don't know to much about lions effect on big game numbers but I was looking over some headlines and came across this article and thought I would throw it in this thread.It seems the management folks in Nevada think the lions are a factor in the declination of the herds in the silver state.As far as wolves are concerned the only good one is a dead one and I will shoot them big ole yotes on sight.

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-na ... .Targeted/


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## goofy elk

That is realy a strange situation in Nevada, What are they thinking?????

Hunter's are already allowed two permit's per year, but yet they fail to
meet there harvest objective number's in 95% + of there state?

Make's no sense at all.

There are very,very, few filling even two tag's.


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## luv2fsh&hnt

I have been thinking about this thread and a thought crossed my mind so I thought I would pose the question. I have no experience hunting cats but I have alot of experience with yotes.When the rabbit population cycles down the yote population follows.Accepting the premise stated by the lion hunters is it possible the decline in the lion population is due to the decline in prey animals and not the harvest objective management plan?


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## Theekillerbee

Good call Finnegan.

I think a coyote hunt is in order! Just remember though, Shoot Shovel, and Shutup! It's the triple S philosophy.


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## goofy elk

Liv2fsh, The answer to your queston is no.


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## luv2fsh&hnt

Ok GoofyElk.Why is the answer no? I mean it is no secret that in many parts of the state the deer herd is in decline.From my ventures this year rabbits are on the down cycle.To me this would indicate a decline in available food sources which translates into lower birthing success and lower winter survival reulting in fewer cats. I am not trying to argue.Only trying to gain alittle education so as to be able to form an intelligent opinion. I don't know if birds are on the lions menu but if they are and the poor recruitment of birds the last couple years would mean less available food also.


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## goofy elk

Lion's are not dependent on deer only, And for bird's, Cat's are very good turkey hunter's.

I've found were elk are abundent, even though other game is avalible they choose elk.

And if there is no game at all in an area, cat's simply move.


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## elkaholic226

i agree with pro, right now with the low population of deer,we can not support more lions or wolves. we have had wolves in the state for a few years now i think we need to take care of that problem first before our elk herds suffer like they have in montana. but on the otherside we must stay on even ground with this subject and not let this split our party on this. as a sportsman i can see bolth sides of this issue and i dont think it will be a easy one to solve but i hope we can solve it fairly before it gets solved for us.


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## Mojo1

Lets see good cat = dead cat, good wolf = dead wolf I rather have the deer and elk than a few cats or dogs.

You can always run *****!!! There seems to be plenty of those!


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## Kevin D

Mojo1 said:



> You can always run *****!!! There seems to be plenty of those!


True, and you guys can take up golf................ :roll:


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## goofy elk

First off, This "MYSTICAL" belief that lion's are the main cause for low deer 
population's is pure B**L S**T!........It would be nice if antlered hunter's pulled
there head's out. Lion's are an important factor for heathy deer and elk heard's.

Second.....When the wolves get a strong foothold in Utah,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
WE'LL ALL BE PLAYING GOLF!


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## coyoteslayer

> First off, This "MYSTICAL" belief that lion's are the main cause for low deer
> population's is pure B**L S**T!........It would be nice if antlered hunter's pulled
> there head's out. Lion's are an important factor for heathy deer and elk heard's.


This sounds "goofy" to me. :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm teasing you. :wink:

Can you please explain to me how lions are an important factor for healthy deer and elk herds? A lion can kill a deer a week so that is 52 deer a year. BUT we will say 20 deer per year just for kicks. If you have 1,000 lions and they each kill 20 deer per year that equals 20,000 deer. Again, how is this healthy???. A male lion who is traveling looking for females will kill more often and only eat the heart, liver and lungs :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think you better re-think your facts before talking about "Mystical" stuff. I hunted lions for 15 years before I got injured and it was easy to find many, many, many deer killed by lions. The deer populated decreased because the DWR were protecting these awesome killers.

I'm not saying we should kill every lion in the country. It was awesome running up on snowmoblies and easily cutting a lion track. We usually treed around 30 lions a year and it was awesome, but the deer herd suffered because of it.


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## goofy elk

If you realy exspect me to believe you've got 15 year's experience chasing lion's,,,,

And DON'T know the lion situation on harvest objective unit's???? give me a break!


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## Mojo1

Kevin D said:


> Mojo1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can always run *****!!! There seems to be plenty of those!
> 
> 
> 
> True, and you guys can take up golf................ :roll:
Click to expand...

You guys don't play golf? You don't know what your missing! :mrgreen:


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## coyoteslayer

> If you realy exspect me to believe you've got 15 year's experience chasing lion's,,,,
> 
> And DON'T know the lion situation on harvest objective unit's???? give me a break!


I understand it perfectly. Now don't dodge the question. A simple answer will do.


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## goofy elk

coyoteslayer said:


> First off, This "MYSTICAL" belief that lion's are the main cause for low deer
> population's is pure B**L S**T!........It would be nice if antlered hunter's pulled
> there head's out. Lion's are an important factor for heathy deer and elk heard's.
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds "goofy" to me. :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm teasing you. :wink:
> 
> Can you please explain to me how lions are an important factor for healthy deer and elk herds? A lion can kill a deer a week so that is 52 deer a year. BUT we will say 20 deer per year just for kicks. If you have 1,000 lions and they each kill 20 deer per year that equals 20,000 deer. Again, how is this healthy???. A male lion who is traveling looking for females will kill more often and only eat the heart, liver and lungs :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> Well for the healthy Heard,, Lion's can help "cull" the weaker animal's
> out of the heard's, winter losses are 30% to 40% anyway rather lion's are there or not.
> And as for your "heart, liver and lung's" thing, Another FALES statment, dos'nt happen,
> or at least EXSTREAMLY rare...."That would be a wolf thing".
> 
> I think you better re-think your facts before talking about "Mystical" stuff. I hunted lions for 15 years before I got injured and it was easy to find many, many, many deer killed by lions. The deer populated decreased because the DWR were protecting these awesome killers.
> If you think for ONE minute the MAJOR decreases in deer population's are because of lion's,,
> Your wrong and show's how much "houndsman ship" you know,, It is minor compared to
> other factor's,, HABITAT #1, The coyote kill's on yearling's this year is unreal,,roadkill's,Hunting presure and disease.
> 
> I'm not saying we should kill every lion in the country. It was awesome running up on snowmoblies and easily cutting a lion track. We usually treed around 30 lions a year and it was awesome, but the deer herd suffered because of it.
Click to expand...

As for "kill every lion",,,, In about 50% of the harvest objective unit's,,IT'S ALREADY DONE!


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## goofy elk

Oh and Mojo 1,,,,,I LOVE golf, going to make a St. George run in a couple week's;;
Play'n Redhill's, South Gate, Bloomington hill's and Coral Canyon,, Can't WAIT!


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## Mojo1

goofy elk said:


> Oh and Mojo 1,,,,,I LOVE golf, going to make a St. George run in a couple week's;;
> Play'n Redhill's, South Gate, Bloomington hill's and Coral Canyon,, Can't WAIT!


I was only razzing you guys, I'm not much of golf player, I only play about 1 time a year.

Have fun in St George!


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## Hound Inc.

Of all the Cat tracks I have followed, I have never seen a Lion kill a deer or elk and not eat the majority of it, the birds get some, and the coyotes help also. I have seen where a Tom lion made a kill, got a full belly and left for a few days, and then he circled back and ate what was left. 

Goofy, dealing with these guys is like arguing with PETA, or one of those beauties, you will never prove them wrong, ever. So make sure to swerve to miss every **** by the lake, and kill every coyote you see. I'm out, I have some hiking to do, maybe find a Lion.


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## coyoteslayer

> Well for the healthy Heard,, Lion's can help "cull" the weaker animal's
> out of the heard's, winter losses are 30% to 40% anyway rather lion's are there or not.
> And as for your "heart, liver and lung's" thing, Another FALES statment, dos'nt happen,
> or at least EXSTREAMLY rare...."That would be a wolf thing".


Goofy there isnt enough weak and sick animals to feed any lions or coyotes for that matter. I also seriously doubt that winter losses are as high as 40%. You live in a goofy world. I will tell you that. Yes male lions will kill a deer and only eat the liver heart and lungs because of their territory they won't go back to the same kill while looking for females to breed. A male lion might be in a canyon one day, but you won't see him in that canyon again for a week or two so his deer kill is gone by the time he gets back from other animals. Also when a deer is frozen because it's cold then they prefer fresh meat. Goofy, this statement about predators killing the weak, sick and injured is nothing but a fairytale. It's used by PETA members to justify these predators. It's simply NOT true.



> IIf you think for ONE minute the MAJOR decreases in deer population's are because of lion's,,
> Your wrong and show's how much "houndsman ship" you know,, It is minor compared to
> other factor's,, HABITAT #1, The coyote kill's on yearling's this year is unreal,,roadkill's,Hunting presure and disease.


I never said that lions are the MAJOR decrease in the deer population. Habitat is the #1 reason, but Lions do play a part, but they arent the Major cause. I respect houndmen. I love the sport of the chase. I wish I could do it again in a HEART BEAT. It was freaking awesome.

I'm not saying we should kill every lion in the country. It was awesome running up on snowmoblies and easily cutting a lion track. We usually treed around 30 lions a year and it was awesome, but the deer herd suffered because of it.

The DWR made a lot of mistakes managing the Lion population the way they did HENCE the reason for Harvest objective units.


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## goofy elk

Cs, By no mean's am I implying lion's live on weak animal's, they are opportunist,,
they like jackrabbit's and turkey's as well as mature bull elk, and yes deer.

This heart and lung thing?? WOW ,, your out to lunch on this one man!
I'm well into the mid hundered's of lion's I've caught and tracked,,,,,,never seen that one.

I see you hav'nt taken your shed antler course,,40% was the answer on winter mortality.

They prefer fresh meat over frozen,,,WTF? Now there's a totaly CLUELESS statement.

Yote,, why don't you call some of your hound buddy's and ask them how many lion's are
left on Nebo west face, Timp, Casacade, Oak City, Thousand Lakes, The Henry's, and
even the Bookcliff's it's tough to cut a track,,let alone a big Tom. I could go on if you like?


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## CUT-EM

Not a houndsmen myself but I have treed lions numerous times with friends and relatives who run dogs. Im going to have to agree with goofy on this one. Everything I hear from my sources tells me the same thing as goofy and the rest of the houndsmen.


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## coyoteslayer

> This heart and lung thing?? WOW ,, your out to lunch on this one man!
> I'm well into the mid hundered's of lion's I've caught and tracked,,,,,,never seen that one.
> Well, like the saying goes, there is a first for everything
> 
> I see you hav'nt taken your shed antler course,,40% was the answer on winter mortality.
> Do you believe anything you read? Yes there is mortality and it's caused by habitat, cold winters, humans, cars etc, but I doubt it's at 40%
> 
> They prefer fresh meat over frozen,,,WTF? Now there's a totaly CLUELESS statement.
> 
> Imagine that lions wanting fresh meat. You are very clueless.
> 
> Yote,, why don't you call some of your hound buddy's and ask them how many lion's are
> left on Nebo west face, Timp, Casacade, Oak City, Thousand Lakes, The Henry's, and
> even the Bookcliff's it's tough to cut a track,,let alone a big Tom. I could go on if you like?
> Yes, the lion population is going downhill on a level where it should be. Why do we have problems with bears because the DWR wasn't giving out enough permits. The lions are the same way. Thank goodness we are killing more lions and they are getting a little harder to find.


A Lion was killed above Springville this year and the guy spot and stalked it so there must be a few around. Maybe you need to get a better pack of dogs. Two friends have treed numerous lions in different locations so why in the heck are you having a hard time? Maybe you need to get out more and quit being so lazy. Of course the lions arent as thick as before. Poor Goofy has to actually work a little harder to get a lion for a client. Does this sound familiar with elk? BTW how did your elk clients make out this year????? 

I'm not trying to fight with you, but I just don't believe your CRAP.


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## goofy elk

We did 23 elk hunt's,, killed 18.

And honestly , a cat will eat a frozen elk till it's GONE.

Oh, and yes, last year's Nebo elk debate,,,,,, Hate to say I told you so,, 
But I did,,,, and it is what is ...Quality down even farther in 2008, and going
to be worse off in 2009. A lot of LE Nebo elk hunter's will have to settle for
280 to 310 stuff,, OR go empty.


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## coyoteslayer

> We did 23 elk hunt's,, killed 18.
> 
> And honestly , a cat will eat a frozen elk till it's GONE.
> 
> Oh, and yes, last year's Nebo elk debate,,,,,, Hate to say I told you so,,
> But I did,,,, and it is what is ...Quality down even farther in 2008, and going
> to be worse off in 2009. A lot of LE Nebo elk hunter's will have to settle for
> 280 to 310 stuff,, OR go empty.


 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: My brother put in for the Nebo unit and if he draws I will be sure to post the pictures and prove you wrong. The quality is only your opinion. It's not based on facts.


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## coyoteslayer

I do respect Houndsman because I was a houndsmen before my car accident, but I also see the other side of the issue.


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## Cold Track

Don't waste your breath anymore Goofy, CS ran dogs fifteen years ago so he's an expert on the current lion population. Doesn't matter how great your dogs are if there aren't tracks being made. CS has done a little better in the hunting game than his buddies, so in his mind like a few others on this board he's smarter, better, knows it all, and seen it all in the world of hunting, and not many people can aquire the knowledge and expertise about hunting that he has, at least not guys on this small time forum.


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## fixed blade XC-3

Cold Track said:


> Don't waste your breath anymore Goofy, CS ran dogs fifteen years ago so he's an expert on the current lion population. Doesn't matter how great your dogs are if there aren't tracks being made. * CS has done a little better in the hunting game than his buddies, so in his mind like a few others on this board he's smarter, better, knows it all, and seen it all in the world of hunting, *and not many people can aquire the knowledge and expertise about hunting that he has, at least not guys on this small time forum.


Your talking about Coyoteslayer right? :lol:


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## coyoteslayer

-_O- -_O- -_O- -_O- -_O- I just struck a nerve. I'm not a so called expert, but I did have a lot of success treeing lions. I had a great pack of dogs.


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## goofy elk

Cold track,,How's it go'in?? I used to love to read the old DWR forum's, But CS and PRO
would Pis# me off....That's the whole reason I joined up in 2007,, to go toe to toe with 
those two.. I've come to like PRO ,, Still working on CS, I'm not letting up either untill 
he grow's a few more brain cell's.

And Fixed Blade, It truly is our "Beloved Coyoteslayer",,,,,,,,

And when he resond's to my post's with stupid s#it,,,I'm here to throw the truth right
back at him like a 100 mile an hour fast ball!

One more thing Cold Track, I ended up using my wife's 14 elk point's for muzzy Pahavnt.
There was so much "HIPE" on Monroe last year,, I thought we would try across the road.


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## coyoteslayer

Well as long as you don't cry like you did when I questioned your elk guiding skills then we will be fine.


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## goofy elk

Ya know what Yote,, Someday I might let you look thru my photo album,,,,,May-be.


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## coyoteslayer

May I share mine with you also?


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## Kevin D

Just a couple thoughts.

30 plus lions treed per season used to be routine in the days before harvest objective, but I haven't had one of those in over 10 years. I don't know what year you had your accident coyoteslayer, but things aren't the same as they used to be.

I don't think the lion/deer population cycles are any different than other predator/prey cycles. When the prey animal population surges, predator populations follow. When prey populations crash, predator numbers are also bound to follow. Back in the day when 30 plus lion seasons were common, we also had a lot more deer.

As far as cougars helping maintain healthy deer herds, if you believe sport hunting helps herds from becoming over populated with the associated disease and habitat degradation, you should believe that cougars do the same. Lions were natures way of controlling deer herds long before the DWR and anterless hunts were invented.

The over harvesting of cougars in areas where deer population numbers are distressed will not bring back the deer herds. Going back to the predator/prey symbiotic cycle, it is prey numbers that determine the predator population, not the other way around. An example of that is here on the Cache unit. We've been under a predator management plan for over a decade now that for all intents and purposes allows for the unlimited take of cougars. The resident population of lions has all but been wiped out, yet the deer poulation remains at about 70% of mangement objectives. About the time the deer numbers start showing some improvement, another bad winter like we had last year comes along and knocks them back again. 

Consequently, I'm left wondering what was accomplished by killing all the resident lions if it hasn't helped the deer populations improve??


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## goofy elk

KD, you are much more eloquent than I am, and that my friend is a VERY good post.


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## goofy elk

The new 10 year plan looks good,,,,,,,,Bye ,Bye, Harvest Objective.


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## coyoteslayer

I seriously doubt the "Harvest Objective" will disappear because it was a good way to get rid of a certain number of cougars fairly quickly.


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## coyoteslayer

Plus it gave more people the opportunity to hunt a Mountain lion. It would be nice to establish a Bear Harvest objective program on a few units


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## MEEN

Just found this thread. I was watching a hunting show the other day and they made the statement about how coyotes will steal a cougars kill so then the cougar has to kill again. I guess they were trying to make a statement along the lines that a mountain line is a MUCH more efficient killer than the coyotes and since coyotes were stealing the kill, mountain lions had to kill more often.

Is this true? If it is, shouldn't we be more focused on managing the coyote populations. I have never heard coyotes howl in the morning/evening where I hunt. This year I heard them year round every morning/evening. It didn't matter whether I was hunting deer in Southeastern Utah or hunting elk on the open bull unit.

I would like to be able to harvest a cougar one day if I can ever afford $3500+ to hire a houndsman. Therefore I am all for keeping a healthy/balanced mountain lion herd.


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## goofy elk

MEEN,,The current lion population numbers in Utah are the lowest Ive ever seen.
Harvest objective hunting has effectively lowered cat numbers to the point that
coyotes are harder on the deer than any other predator,,especially the fawns.

There have been changes made with split seasons and moving HO dates in to march,
Making the harvest hunting very,very difficult.

Also part of the new plan is if over 20% of the total harvest in any given unit is females,
total tags allowed is dropped 40% in that unit.....Or changed to limited entry only....
This STRONGLY discourages the harvesting of any females,,,,,,,,I like this a lot.
Its going to take some time, But lion numbers will recover under this new plan.


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## MEEN

Good to hear. Thanks for the response.


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## goofy elk

:O--O--O:


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## bullsnot

Kevin D said:


> The lesson I've taken away from all this is that killing lions is not the answer to save a struggling deer herd. As a mangement strategy it has failed miserably.


Well the problem is that isn't a managment strategy, its politics imposing itself on managment strategies.

Being on the RAC has opened my eyes to the fact that many sportsmen that only hunt deer and elk really do not care one bit about balance and anything but the species they hunt. They generally aren't interested in even being educated or hearing the other side of the coin. I get some pretty nasty emails in my inbox regarding this very subject.

The really sad thing is many deer hunters believe that a dead cougar helps deer without understanding compensatory predation and the true prey vs. predator balance.

I have not seen any data that suggests that cats are having any real impact on deer populations, mostly compensatory predation, and there aren't a whole of cats in Utah either. There may be a couple of areas that are the exception to this rule of course and of course not all deer and elk sportsmen can be painted with the same brush.


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## bullsnot

I almost forgot to add my thoughts on HO's.

My mind is not made up on HO's but I have a few thoughts having gone through the cougar plan and the harvest numbers. 

First it seems since going to the new plan we are clearly trending down with cat numbers yet we have not made any adjsutment to tag quotas over the past 2 years. I know that HO will NOT work if we aren't adjusting tag quotas from year to year. That's not a fatal flaw with HO's though, that's a flaw with us not making changes from year to year to adjust to trends. I understand the plan says we need 3 years of data and its only been 2 since we started the new plan but I have to ask if we were talking deer would be ignoring the obvious trends to wait for 3 years of data?

As a cat population declines it seems that female harvest starts to climb, in fact that is a sign that your cat population is trending down. The cougar plan has clear direction on what to with harvest quotas when female harvest increases as a percentage of harvest and we again are not adjusting to that year over year. Again that is not a flaw with HO's but rather a flaw with us not adjusting year over year. The plan has clearly defined strategies and adjustments to quotas in these scenarios.

Also it seems to be that it should be obvious to us that we need to have a female sub quota on all HO's. I know that there used to be some question on whether or not they really made a difference but if your plan has clearly defined strategies based on female sub quotas then clearly each unit should be aligned with the larger strategy and have female sub quotas especially since female harvest has a direct impact on population trends.

I have not decided if HO's are really a problem but I do feel strongly that we are not allowing that cougar plan to work by ignoring its strategies under the guise that 3 years within the new plan has not passed. We clearly are trending down hard and not adjusting as the plan dictates.


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## Iron Bear

[attachment=0:s2fq9qnb]Lion_Kill.jpeg[/attachment:s2fq9qnb]

So would you like to tell the "average Joe" that this buck was going to die anyway? 

Would you like to tell the CWMU owner that buck ($10,000) was going to be dead any way by the next hunt?

:lol: He might be because he had to breed 150 doe this fall. Another silly policy you protect. :roll:

Sure you can try and use the compensatory argument. After all I should use additive since nether are provable on the scale we are talking.

It doesn't take 3000 or even 1000 cats to serve their biological function on the deer herd in Utah. *Especially*when you have hunters standing in line to do the job. And pay for it. Hunters can do more precisely also. Using cougar as the primary method of deer herd control is like using a chainsaw for brain surgery blindfolded.

I case you didn't notice you struck a nerve. And yes I am critical of you and the UWC. I should be. I was duped into joining and lending support under the notion you would lookout for the average Joe (Deer) not special interest. We want more deer and praying for good weather inst an acceptable solution for me.

Last question and I do want an answer. Where does 100,000 hunters fit into this *"balance"* your striving for?


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## swbuckmaster

I go out coyote hunting out west and always find cougar tracts not as many as coyote tracks but i do find quite a few. Heck last time i went out there i found more cat and coyote tracks then i found deer and rabbit tracks.

I go on the wasatch front and always find cat tracks. I also find their kills. You could run dogs on some of this ground because the city slickers are running their dogs on it. 

I pay for a hunt and I kill on the first day. The guide tells me no kill no pay. At the time i was asking for help all the houndsman on the forums tell me there are no cats. To me this sends mixed signals unless you have money.

I drive down the road and actually found a cougar laying in the shade last year. Ive found cats in snares surveying.

Are there going to be b&c cats in every tree? No but i dont think there should be either. When the deer herd is in the tank the predator base should also be in the tank. This also goes for man, cats, coyotes, bears. Id even throw in a few birds. We are all part of the pie.

I have also noticed lions keying in on the elk in utah. Heck I've even seen horses killed by lions in California.

Now if they want to have a few larger cats to chase limit the male portion of the tags and cull more female cats but make it so there is a balance of cats vs availability of prey. Meaning more deer = more cats! Less deer = less cats! There needs to be a balance is all im saying.

Im with goofy on our coyote. The more he posts the more i think he hit his head in his accident.


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## bullsnot

Iron Bear said:


> Sure you can try and use the compensatory argument. After all I should use additive since nether are provable on the scale we are talking.
> 
> It doesn't take 3000 or even 1000 cats to serve their biological function on the deer herd in Utah. *Especially*when you have hunters standing in line to do the job. And pay for it. Hunters can do more precisely also. Using cougar as the primary method of deer herd control is like using a chainsaw for brain surgery blindfolded.
> 
> I case you didn't notice you struck a nerve. And yes I am critical of you and the UWC. I should be. I was duped into joining and lending support under the notion you would lookout for the average Joe (Deer) not special interest. We want more deer and praying for good weather inst an acceptable solution for me.
> 
> Last question and I do want an answer. Where does 100,000 hunters fit into this *"balance"* your striving for?


First let me say thanks for being up front and laying everything on the table.

As I read through your post and concerns it's obvious that we have some fundamental differences in opinion that make it difficult to reach any kind of middle ground but I will attempt to do my best.

I think we need to address the elephant in the room. If I'm understanding you correctly you feel the cougar in Utah is over populated compared to its primary food source which of course is mule deer and is depressing mule deer numbers. And if we were to harvest more cougars then you believe that mule deer numbers would increase and there would be better deer hunting. Do I have that correct? Based on that belief I understand your comments about me, UWC, and the undertones in your posts.

I of course do not share that opinion. 3 years ago, much like you, I believed that if it ate a deer then it hurt deer numbers in some way. I will acknowledge the fact that it is extremely difficult to look at a specific kill, as the one you posted above, and say that kill is definitely compensatory or additive. It still makes me cringe to see a deer that has fallen to a cougar. But I do very much believe that based on what I have learned over the past 3 years that much of cougar predation on deer is largely compensatory. There are some areas where this is not true but I do very much believe there are much bigger challenges for mule deer than cougars. All the numbers we have say that cougar numbers have been steadily declining for at least 15 years. That reduction in cat numbers has not resulted in an increase in deer numbers.

It is true that a large predatory base can suppress deer population growth but generally that only occurs when mule deer doe mortality exceeds 15%. Based on this the cougar plan was changed in 2011 to include the collared deer study and based on those collared animals if mortality goes to 15% or above then we increase the cougar harvest until that number comes back down below 15%. If mule deer doe mortality is below 15% then fawns become the likely key which usually points to coyote, range conditions or a number of other factors. So in short there is a mechanism in place to do exactly what you ask and that is if it is shown that cougars are either killing too many deer or are a limiting factor then cougar harvest is increased just as you ask.

I understand that we can round and round and we likely will not find much common ground. I do not want to convince you IB but rather make a compelling argument that will hopefully give some insight into the subject. I am not always right and I will continue to have an open mind but at present I simply do not believe the cougar is having much of an impact on deer herds. In fact I believe that they are a valuable part of the ecosystem and I do believe that the hunter fits into that equation and that our management practices of both the deer and the cougar can and do allow us to be a part of that ecosystem.

To answer your question specifically we only kill deer in the fall and now days we only kill bucks. It important to have predators that will take out weak and diseased animals year round and of both sexes. In the end the entire herd is stronger for that. By managing cougars the way we do we limit the impact they have and that allows room for human harvest. Hunters and cougars must coexist because without the cougar hunters will be no more because the anti crowd will crush us politically.

I regret your feelings for UWC, I really do. I have spent many many hours away from my family in the name of UWC and have not ever cashed a single paycheck for it. We sincerely want to be an advocate for guys like you and I'm sorry we let you down. We do feel balance is absolutely critical to wildlife sustainability and for the preservation of our sport forever. We feel that balance not only make sense for a healthy ecosystem but also is an important stance politically for our sport to survive anti-hunters and those that are on the fence about hunting. Balance is the responsible thing to do and we feel that hunting is the ultimate conservation tool and with the right management can absolutely have room for the cougar and for the hunter. I spend many many hours in the field with biologists, sitting in RAC meetings, conversing with sportsmen, and doing my research all trying to find that balance.


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## Iron Bear

You've missed my stance completely. :? 

Read my signature. :roll: 


The cougar population is just where it needs to be. But for who? I can tell you it is not ideal if you want to facilitate 100,000 deer hunters. If we want we can just walk away from it all and mother nature will take care of herself just fine. The deer don't need our input in order to survive. The hunter needs our input and manipulation to conserve his tradition. If we aren't going to do that then why are we concerning ourselves with hunter recruitment and retention. All signs point to limited opportunity in our future. So why invite more people in the boat? 

I understand the importance of hunter recruitment. But my crystal ball tells me the trends of the past is going to continue unless we get a mentality change. 

Cougar need to be managed on a per deer basis with hunter harvest as the priority. Unless houndsman and treehuggers want support the DWR big game program.


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## bullsnot

I'm pretty sure I understand IB. 

You say there needs to be sound predator management and I'm saying I believe there is. I simply disagree with you that a significant and sustained reduction in cougar populations will help deer numbers and deer hunters all that much. Might it save a buck or two here and there, sure! But the political fallout from such a move would be far worse from removing those cats and the benefit to the deer herd would be very small, hardly noticeable in my view. 

I want to protect the deer hunting heritage for the 100,000 deer hunters you mentioned and their wants and considerations matter, we agree on that.


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## Packout

A biologist wrote a great article hypothesizing on secondary predation. Once cats run out of deer they will then turn to elk, while still using deer as a prey source. So it is possible to have a cat population high enough to suppress a deer population, but the cat population does not drop with the primary prey source because they are sustained by the secondary prey source. 

If a deer herd winter kills, it is possible for cats to keep the deer herd suppressed. Some may argue that the the carrying capacity was exceeded for the deer herd. But an irregularly bad winter once every decade or so shouldn't mean we only carry the minimum amount of deer. Nor should we allow predators to keep the herds from rebounding. 

I watched the deer herd around Alpine/Cedar Hills explode after the UDWR slaughtered the cougar population in the early 2000s. The cats were killing the newly transplanted bighorn sheep and were obviously suppressing the areas deer herd. 

I wouldn't mind seeing an OTC Cougar Permit on some units, which can be used by any hunter during their big game hunt. I see cougars every year or so. There are more of them on some areas than one might think. There is a place for cats in our wild areas, but I personally feel that the cat population, in some areas I frequent, is too high. Namely the Nebo, the Deep Creeks, and the Wasatch. 

Of course that is all just my opinion.....


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## Kevin D

Here is the thing about the buck in the photo Iron Bear posted, no one can say for certainty the health of the buck before the lion took it out. The lion that killed it was a young tom approximately 3 years old. A houndsman buddy of mine had a brother with a tag so I tipped them off and they killed the lion responsible 3 or 4 days after the photo was taken.

What I do know is that the lion killed the buck in it's bed without much of a struggle. Most lion kills I've seen the deer makes two or three leaps before the lion is able to tackle it and bring it down in a scuffle. That didn't happen in this case, there were a couple of kick marks in the snow, but the drag marks from the lion hiding it's kill started at the buck's bed which is out of the ordinary. So either the lion was incredibly skilled and lucky, or the buck was already in ill health when the lion found it......at this point it is speculation either way.

I mentioned in another thread about finding a mature cow moose that a female lion with kittens was able to take down. Though again, one can only speculate on the health of the moose prior to it becoming lion chow.

The idea Packout is describing is called the predator pitt hypothesis......where a predator turns to a secondary prey species and never lets the primary prey species to recover. The problem with this theory is that it has it's limitations. As evidence, one only has to look at the natural world around us.......if the predator pitt held true to the end, we would live in a world of all predators and no prey. So clearly there is a point in which the theory no longer applies.

I'm not opposed to temporarily increasing lion tags in some units as part of an overall predator management plan as is currently implemented, but I don't think killing lions is a long term solution to what may be bigger problems. 

More important, IMO, is understanding the difference between compensatory and additive predation as Bullsnot mentions. This is why wiping out lions in certain areas have failed to bring back the deer herds in my estimation. I think we are saving the deer from death by lion only to have them succumb to death by other causes such as malnutrition and disease.


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## Iron Bear

bullsnot said:


> I simply disagree with you that a significant and sustained reduction in cougar populations will help deer numbers and deer hunters all that much. *Might it save a buck or two here and there, sure!* But the political fallout from such a move would be far worse from removing those cats and the benefit to the deer herd would be very small, hardly noticeable in my view.
> 
> I want to protect the deer hunting heritage for the 100,000 deer hunters you mentioned and their wants and considerations matter, we agree on that.


A buck or two. :shock: Is that really how you see it? No wonder you don't want to know how many cougar there are in Utah. You or the DWR biologist don't even want to talk about it. Because when you make a comment like a "buck or two". It begs the question. How many cougar do you think are in Utah? 1000 on the extreme low end? 3000 in the high? So how many bucks do you think 1000 cats kill per yr? I bet at times of the yr they almost exclusively prey on bucks. (Beat down over bred half dead buck) I'll go super conservative and say a cougar only kills 10 buck per yr. So again on the low end 10,000 bucks go to cats. Funny when the big bad SFW and the cronies on the WB were shoving option 2 down our throats. Anus says well if you want higher B/D ratio's we will need to *Cut tags to reduce buck harvest* to get the desired increase. This is where the deer hunter *advocate* should start coming up with solutions that don't include tag cuts.

So I guess your mentality that cougar only take a buck or two. Would make you think that taking from the hunter was the only thing to do. But really I think it was more of a political move.

Political fallout? From who? Houndsman? Treehuggers? The houndsman can be recruited to the effort. And with our new system of trending we'll show that the cougar population is stable and no one will be the wiser. :lol: 



bullsnot said:


> I want to protect the deer hunting heritage for the 100,000 deer hunters you mentioned and their wants and considerations matter, we agree on that.


For all due respect. We are not in complete agreement. Not only do the 100,000 deer hunters wants and considerations matter but they are paramount or should be to the UWC, SFW, MDF, BHOU and the DWR. Or suffer the criticism that comes along with failing the very group that makes it happen for you all.

But the sad commentary is you need us to think our deer hunting needs help. And your gonna fix it or at least try to in order to survive. Land owners need us to think we can't get a trophy on public land in order to survive. Land managers can manage lands for graze not browse. Conservation tags go for $100,000s. All party's at the table benefit from reduced deer populations. Accept the deer hunter.

Using predators to displace and relegate hunters is a tried and trued method boy's so get used to it. Just feel like the bullsnot going on in these threads is a like a fox in the hen house.


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## Packout

Kevin-- Nice post and thoughts. I tend to agree with most of what you said. I don't want an all out slaughter of the cougar population, but don't think anyone has a real idea of the cat population. Over 40 cougars were killed in a year from Alpine to Provo Canyon in the early 2000s. The biologists I talked with were surprised at how many cats they killed when they suppressed cats to protect the sheep. It is thought the population is down from the early 1990s, but so is the prey population. There are also so many more houndsman today than 20 years ago-- or maybe it just seems that way. Competition in any hunting arena makes it harder on the hunter.


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## goofy elk

Here's the thing IB, There's an ALL OUT ASSULT going on against lions and you,
and others, still don't get it, and are not satisfied!?!?

Bulls numbers are reflecting EXACTLY what I've seen in the field, 
Decreasing cat population number for 15 STRAIT YEARS NOW!

Mule deer number across the entire western states are falling, mostly habitat related.

lions do just fine surviving on elk, rabbits, squirrels, turkeys, rodents, sheep, moose,
WHAT EVER is available!

IMHO, there are more important issues facing our deer herds than a declining , and
at this time a suppressed cat population.

which brings us right back to the thread title, OR at least a question,,,,,,
When do we END harvest objective hunting on units that CANT support it!!

Prime time snow, and lion hunting conditions right now, yet 5 units with ZERO harvest!
That's right, 2012/13 numbers,
Bookcliffs RS, Kaparowits, San Rafeal, Box Elder PM, WASATCH mts Cascade!
ZERO CATS harvested....

Other units that USED to be awesome cat areas, no more.
Nine mile, Zion, Avinitaquin, Timponogas, combine quotas set at 56 cats..
Only 10 have been harvested in 2012/13, I suspect it will end around 15...
Yet a quotas of 56??? ridiculous! Time to end HO hunts on at least some units.


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## goofy elk

Packout said:


> Over 40 cougars were killed in a year from Alpine to Provo Canyon in the early 2000s. The biologists I talked with were surprised at how many cats they killed when they suppressed cats to protect the sheep. .


And the 2012/13 numbers, same area.
Timpanogos - 3 lions harvested
Wasatch cascade - ZERO cats harvested

That pretty much tells the story.. Very , very few lions if any in those units!!!!

Exact same thing on Nebo ,west face!

Now we have three units with NO huntable sheep population, And very few
cats..I used to chase lions regularly on all 3 units...........NO MORE :evil:


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## Packout

Well Goofy-- I guess we'll have to disagree there. A lot has changed as far as access since they pounded the cats 10 years ago. Alpine has cats, just lost the access to run them. You can't access the North end and I don't see anyone running dogs on the private Lowhills West of town. Cedar Hills has made it harder to access and cut tracks. 

Dad had one living in his hay barn last winter. It killed 3 deer in 3 days. He ran it off. Then we had another cat at our feedlot in Highland. Both mature cats. The neighbors had a female with her kittens in their backyard just 3 days ago. 

You can quote all the harvest rates you want, but that isn't always the truth to the situations. If what you claim is true-- the good houndsman, such as yourself, won't kill cats. Then you have all the newbys who don't have the experience to catch cats.

If you think harvest is the tell-tale sign of all cougar populations then take a minute and think of this-- The Deep Creeks never reach their quotas. Why? No cats? Nope. Terrain and access. I have a friend who guides on the Indian Reservation. The guides were shooting multiple cats without dogs. The elk/deer hunters are running across cats on a consistent basis. I have seen 2 cats out there the last 2 times I have been. So the cats are there, just nobody works to kill them.


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## Iron Bear

I'd expect you to call it an "all out war" or something like that. 

Do/did we have an all out war on deer for the last 100 yrs? Do we have an all out war on spike elk? All out war on trout? Answer me this goofy. Could there really be anymore cougar in Utah than today. You like to flaunt numbers. So tell me how many cougar do you think are in Utah. And how many should we have? And how many would we have if we didn't have this all out war on cougar. Or is it possible that the current cougar harvest is just about right to sustain populations. Not increase decrease just sustain. 

There are fewer hunters today than in the 80's and 90's too goofy. Does that mean hunters hare a non factor. I know the UWC would like to say that but you and I know when the deer herd is in trouble and we want to increase it we need look at what kills buck and limit it if we can. If I'm not wrong you supported tag cuts right? So what gives?


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## goofy elk

Bear , it COMPLETEY depends on the individual unit, THERE ALL DIFFERENT!

And that's (IMHO) how they should be managed...opt 2 is just part of that.
As is HO or LE lion hunting. It's time to get a handle on each unit and manage
them accordingly to the FULLEST of there potential for all species.....

As bull puts it "balance" and I agree.


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## Iron Bear

So F the deer hunter right. :roll: :evil: 

Do you know what a catch 22 is? You cant have FULLEST potential with cougar and deer. If you give 2 sh! tz about deer hunting.

This "balance" does not lend itself to general hunts.


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## Iron Bear

I'm not even carrying this flag for selfish reasons. You know my situation goofy. I'll shoot deer regardless if whether there is 5000 cougar in Utah or not. I have access to private lands I have the luxury of buying a private hunt every yr. I can travel out of state to supplement what Utah used to provide but now cant. 

As many guy's will complain about the weekend warriors dressed in orange only road hunting from there ATV. Or the guy who drove a Oldsmobile up deer hunting to 10,000 ft on t dirt road. Or my Grandmother, wife or girls who only think of hunting when I force them in the truck to go do some. They guy who rented a riffle from the Gift house and bought a box of shells the night before the hunt. These are the "average Joe's" not us who sit around obsessing about hunting. Those people are the key to preserving our hunting heritage like we had it in the past. The "average Joe" wont go to extremes to be successful. The "average Joe" gives up too easily. The average Joe wont wait 5 yr to hunt. The average Joe wont pay extra or do community service to hunt. 

But with out the "average Joe" we are an even smaller minority. And even harder for us to justify our tradition to the non hunters.


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## goofy elk

IB,
What about my kids? almost completely loosing the sport of hound pursuit?

Chasing cats for fun ,and training hounds almost YEAR ROUND is what I used to do.


So we , the hounds men, have to sacrifice a sport we used to enjoy for a few
average Joe's that hunt 3-4 DAYS a year.........................NOT!


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## Iron Bear

Don't you understand? Yes your kids will loose cougar persuit if we continue on the track we are on. 

By eliminating the hunters importance in this "balance" you make hunting unnecessary. The effect of hunting becomes negative. Hunting looses quality whether that's measured in quantity or horn size we loose both. Then we loose numbers and so on and so on. Fast forward to California. Because we don't manipulate mother nature it's clear to the general public hunting is unnecessary to mange game populations. But largely support limited opportunities. At least for now they do.

I'm proposing your kids will be killing cougar for the sake of my kids deer hunt. That's balance. 

In all honesty goofy I really could care less if there were 5000 cougar in Utah. We would just need 1,000,000 deer to sustain my 3 general hunts for 100,000 people and that many cats.

Its not as if compensatory and additive doesn't apply to hunters also.


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## goofy elk

Just an update:

38 lions checked in so far for Utahs , year round HO unit's....2012/13.

Not many cats hit'in the ground this year.


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## Iron Bear

So houndsman self regulation seems to be working?  s

Chiten in your nest I tells ya. :lol:


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## Kevin D

Iron Bear said:


> So houndsman self regulation seems to be working?  s
> 
> Chiten in your nest I tells ya. :lol:


Here's a sad little secret IB, try as we may to get all the houndsman to work together to protect our lion herd, every area has at least one or more little turdheads that just don't give a chit and think they gotta to kill everything they catch. Goofy I'm sure has noticed the same thing. I'm glad you have an elevated perception of our unity of purpose IB, but I have long ago given up on the idea that we as houndsmen can regulate ourselves and control the cougar harvest in any significant way.


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## stillhunterman

Kevin D said:


> [quote="Iron Bear":8s60lba8]So houndsman self regulation seems to be working?  s
> 
> Chiten in your nest I tells ya. :lol:


Here's a sad little secret IB, try as we may to get all the houndsman to work together to protect our lion herd, every area has at least one or more little turdheads that just don't give a chit and think they gotta to kill everything they catch. Goofy I'm sure has noticed the same thing. I'm glad you have an elevated perception of our unity of purpose IB, but I have long ago given up on the idea that we as houndsmen can regulate ourselves and control the cougar harvest in any significant way. [/quote:8s60lba8]

What do you suppose the sticking point(s) is on some solidarity in the group Kev? How can a few turdheads effect it?


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## Kevin D

Here are a couple of reasons that come to mind stillhunterman.....

There are a few houndsman (usually young beginners) that buy into the 'kill all predators' mentality......that raising up ungulates for human harvest takes precedent over all other wildlife species (way to go Iron Bear  ). I don't know if you remember that incident around Blanding a few years ago where a couple teen age boys killed a sow bear and all her cubs after they treed her during the summer pursuit season? Their reasoning was they were trying to protect the deer herd. This may be an extreme case of an anti predator bias that exists in some houndsman.

There is also the 'me now' mentality. This mindset is similar to deer hunters in an area shooting every two point they see, even though they know by doing so it decreases the probability of the area producing any big bucks. They seem willing to sacrifice the future for the here and now.


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## goofy elk

For many years, a large number of cats were taken in Utah by Non-residents,
taken with/by guides and outfitters. Go through the stats stillhunter, you will 
find that number dropping off significantly. As the word of Utah lion population
has, and is, spreading across the entire US of potential clients.......

Utah had a reputation as the lion hot spot a decade ago, now shifting to other 
states and Canada. BC is the hot spot right now for large lions.....
A non-res (90% of them) Don't want to book a 4-5K hunt and never cut a tom track..
The last 3 years , non-res lion permit sales has fallen, would be surprised to see a 50% fallout.
The Non-res guys were actually a HUGE factor in pulling down Utah's cat numbers the last 15 years.

And a side note: Elk are next, wont take long for the non-res's to wise up to Utah's elk plan,
They will head elsewhere as well, watch and see.


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## bullsnot

Iron Bear said:


> So I guess your mentality that cougar only take a buck or two. Would make you think that taking from the hunter was the only thing to do. But really I think it was more of a political move.


I never said that. I said it may SAVE a buck or two. Big difference.



Iron Bear said:


> Political fallout? From who? Houndsman? Treehuggers? The houndsman can be recruited to the effort. And with our new system of trending we'll show that the cougar population is stable and no one will be the wiser. :lol:


None of the above. Anti-hunters and people that are on the fence. Have you seen how the wolf has been allowed to expand the way it has in the west? Those that want to see the wolf in abundance have used the argument that hunters want to kill all predators so there are more game species for us to kill ourselves. Your own words on this forum could easily be twisted into that very argument by the right people.



Iron Bear said:


> bullsnot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to protect the deer hunting heritage for the 100,000 deer hunters you mentioned and their wants and considerations matter, we agree on that.
> 
> 
> 
> But the sad commentary is you need us to think our deer hunting needs help. And your gonna fix it or at least try to in order to survive. Land owners need us to think we can't get a trophy on public land in order to survive. Land managers can manage lands for graze not browse. Conservation tags go for $100,000s. All party's at the table benefit from reduced deer populations. Accept the deer hunter.
> 
> Using predators to displace and relegate hunters is a tried and trued method boy's so get used to it. Just feel like the bullsnot going on in these threads is a like a fox in the hen house.
Click to expand...

I am comfortable with my statements.

BTW we are organizing an event on the 26th to help some under privileged kids get out and learn to ice fish. Care to volunteer and be enlightened to who we really are and we are really about? PM me and I will get you signed up to volunteer and make a difference in a kids life.


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## Iron Bear

Every deer CWMU operator out there knows he needs a good "balance" of cougar on his lease for the benefit of his customers. :lol:


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## goofy elk

Iron Bear said:


> Every deer CWMU operator out there knows he needs a good "balance" of cougar on his lease for the benefit of his customers. :lol:


Been down that road,
IB, you would be surprised how many CWMU's wont even let a hounds men 
on their property...............It's a non issue.


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## Iron Bear

Well you boy's have got this deer thing pretty much figured out. :O||: 

SWTF have you ran them into the ground? :lol:


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## Packout

goofy elk said:


> IB, you would be surprised how many CWMU's wont even let a hounds men on their property...............It's a non issue.


Non-issue? Access is a huge issue. Many CWMUs allow houndsman on to run cats. They just don't allow every/just any houndsman on.

Then you have fragmented public/private lands which make it hard run cats-- Well easy to run them, just not with permission. Then you have the steep and deep that 99% of guys won't work on, such as the Deep Creeks. And lands with regulations, such as SL County on the Front, where guys can't/won't run. The areas not being hunted are like nurseries for surrounding areas. These areas should have innovative management strategies put in place to curb cat populations where needed. The Deep Cr, Front, East side of the Nebo all need a different strategy-- in my opinion. And some other areas should probably go back to LE if the cats have been hammered too much.

Just too many guys painting the subject with a broad-brush-- kinda like Politics.....


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## swbuckmaster

id love to do a hunt on the front with some hounds. I cant go out there without cutting tracks. I would almost bet it has some of the highest populations of cats around. Especially if they killed 40 from AF canon to Provo canyon in one year. The front hasn't been hunted by anyone in years. 

The year they killed those cat on timp I actually found a 4 cats in snares. I would have never even suspected there were that many up there.


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## goofy elk

^^^ SW , Your right. More cats from Alpine north to I-84 than any were else in the state^^

Packout, The CWMU's are a non-issue. the ones that want Zero cats are doing so...
In my experience, Toms travel so far that when their on private you just wait them out,
they'll move somewhere you can run them. Heck, Crab creek isnt even big enough to hold
a tom more than a couple days if he's on the move  

Were as, access to other areas IS BECOMING a huge issue!
Even places like the Manti, big chunks of management ground closed off, blocking
access to FS..Same on the south end of he Wasatch unit, No sleds allowed anymore.
This is indeed impacting lion hunters , and will allow lions to survive in these restricted
zones that used to , Not.


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## Packout

Goofy, you said "you would be surprised how many CWMU's wont even let a hounds men 
on their property". That implies CWMUs aren't hunting cats. I was just saying many are. No big deal either way.

Your last statement on accessibility is where we agree. I believe we have more houndsmen today than 20 years ago. Land over that same time period is closed by private, development, public lands seasonal closures, road closures, etc.... So we have more hunters hunting less land. ANY cat bouncing through the accessible areas is going to get run and run and probably killed. While the difficult to access areas have stable cougar populations. This skews the harvest to younger cats and females, all while there are stable populations in surrounding, difficult access areas. 

Maybe we need to think of innovative ways to kill cats on the difficult to access areas, such as those I listed previous. Then we can decrease the kill on easier to access areas. Though is seems the easy to access areas will always have less cats as the pursuit pressure will remain the same.


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## goofy elk

Here's my view of difficult access areas, Timpanogos is a great example. 
Even though Timp has limited access, In my experience there, Heavy snow
on that mountain makes it relatively easy. All the wintering game is pushed 
into the foot hills along with the lions. Dry creek canyon (Alpine) Af canyon,
Grove creek, Battle creek , Dry canyon (Lindon), all provide good enough
access by foot....I've personally killed/guided lions in every one of those drainages
and never saddled a horse........

And horses are the answer in these type areas (IMHO)....
Escalate and the Kaiparowits are the most difficult in my experience, not
real horse friendly. And the Deep Creek is one of the few place I never have
hunted lions in Utah. 

If I were just getting into hound hunting now, I would invest in horses, and train
dogs accordingly. That's were a guy will have success in the Future with these motor
restricted units....


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## Kevin D

I have lion hunted on the Deep Creeks, I have a sister and brother-in-law that live in Ibapah. Like Packout suggests, it is a tough place to try to catch a lion on (though I have never tried on the Callao side). Even hunting off horses doesn't help that much, it is a steep, rocky, brushy mountain and about all you're able to do is skirt the base. Short of bulldozing a few roads or trails back into the face canyons, I don't know how you can ever make that mountain cougar hunting friendly.

Kinda as a side note, I was elk hunting out there one year and found a dried up cougar carcass curled up under a cedar tree. It looked to me to have been that of a half grown kitten. I couldn't see any signs of trauma on it, so I assume it must have died from malnutrition or disease. I dunno Goofy, did they take any females off that harvest objective unit in 2011??


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## goofy elk

Kev,
The Deep Creek range is part of lion unit #7611. West desert, Mountain ranges.

2011 harvest was 3 lions, 2 Tom's and one female...

And Kev's right, when females are harvested, it leaves kittens abandoned in many cases..
And they do not survive.


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## muleman

I try and hunt the deep creeks every year. I usually hunt the Callao side. Kevin, you described the deeps to a tee. The difference between the callao and Ibapah side is it steeper, rougher, and brushier. LOL. There are lions on that unit but man its tough to hunt. When its 15 degrees in Tooele is zero in Callao. When its snowing here its a dust bowl there. When there is snow I compare it to a glacier in a desert. You go from dust on the benches to 4 feet of snow up in the canyons. Better bring fuel, extra spare tire, and repelling gear.


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## muleman

Goofy, I prefer to hunt on horses. I try and avoid the rif-raf of houndsmen. That being said I hit areas where you can't take sleds and four-wheelers. I can tell you this, I hunt numerous canyons that are closed to motorized vehicles, I can spend day after day riding without cutting a single track. And this is on the all mighty Oquirrh range.


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## goofy elk

I HEAR YA muleman!

And I also know that 10-15 years ago these so called "nurseries" did exist on many
different units and almost state wide.....

I also know that at the present time , THEY DO NOT exist anymore, ask PO has indicated.

I also realize, and know, there are large, road-less areas some believe have large 
lion populations living on them. When the true is, VERY FEW if any lions right now.


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## Packout

I nominate KevinD to be on any Committee dealing with large cats. Common sense and an ability to listen even if he doesn't agree. Refreshing on these sites. Seriously, you'd make a great addition to protect the overall resource dealing with cat issues.

----------------------



goofy elk said:


> More cats from Alpine north to I-84 than any were else in the state
> 
> Were as, access to other areas IS BECOMING a huge issue!
> Even places like the Manti, big chunks of management ground closed off, blocking
> access to FS..Same on the south end of he Wasatch unit, No sleds allowed anymore.
> This is indeed impacting lion hunters , and will allow lions to survive in these restricted
> zones that used to , Not.





goofy elk said:


> so called "nurseries"....... I also know that at the present time , THEY DO NOT exist anymore, ask PO has indicated.


Change we can believe in?


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## goofy elk

Here's were the changes are starting to roll, from the Jan 10th Board meeting:

Fall 2014
- Target Date - Cougar Data - Female Harvest
MOTION: I move that the Division do an expeditious review of the data and to provide the board members their
analysis, conclusions and recommendations concerning the possible over harvest of female cougars.
Assigned to: John Shivik
Action: Under Study
Status: Letter to be presented to the Wildlife Board November 1, 2012
Placed on Action Log: August 16, 2012

This should/will lead to female HQ's or changing units back to LE.......


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