# Tipping CWMU Operators



## WarYak (Nov 25, 2008)

I was fortunate enough to draw a CWMU antelope tag. When I contacted the operator prior to applying for the area, he told me that he accompanies the hunter while on the property. Is it appropriate to tip the operator and if so, how much?


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I wouldn't tip him unless he puts me on a monster buck. You drew the tag and imho you are not required to tip. Now if I purchased the tag that would be a different story. 

He may be accompanying you to steer you away from the a real shooter. Or he might be trying to protect a younger buck with real potential. Who knows what his true intentions really are. 

This stuff makes me nervous about hunting with a cwmu tag but if the guy helps you out and you do feel so inclined to tip then just tip what you can afford or what you feel they deserve and feel good about it.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

+1 to SW on his tipping part.

Think of it this way- because of you (the public hunter) the CWMU is allowed to sell other permits to private clients for $$$$$. It is the Operator's choice to accompany the public hunter. I see no reason for you to tip the Operator or guides.


----------



## eyecrazy (May 4, 2008)

I think that the tags they get to sell is a good enough tip cwmu's are a joke


----------



## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> He may be accompanying you to steer you away from the a real shooter. Or he might be trying to protect a younger buck with real potential. Who knows what his true intentions really are.


DING DING DING There...You... Go... You'll want to peel the onion first to see what his intentions are. Ask him *why* he's got to be with you in the first place. I'll tell you this, if I was on a CWMU with a tag and had a chance at a monster buck and the operator told me he was off limits because he was a buck he was "saving" for a guy with deep pockets, I'd tell him to pound sand and shoot the deer anyway.


----------



## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I wouldn't tip the operator


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

i have hunted a few cwmu units in the past and have tipped a fellow for guiding me but only if and when he does a good job. but than again it hasnt been the actual landowner with me to be honest other than a rare occazion the only time i have talken to the landowner or manager is when i have made contact to ask them about the unit and on there guided tour of there property that most but not all have.


----------



## Blanding_Boy (Nov 21, 2007)

Good to see the CWMU conspiracy continuing--I've been absent for a while but things haven't changed too much with some of you :? 

Whether you choose to believe it or not, for the most part operators of CWMUs want the state/public/draw hunter to be successful. The success or failure of the CWMU program hinges on them being happy (which the majority of the time is whether or not they kill something). Those that get it (the majority) understand that and bend over backwards to ensure a guy has a good time, is successful, feed and lodge them, and in many cases kills the biggest animal (happens every year).

As to the tipping deal, IMO, there is a big difference in the operator and the guide most of the time. I don't think the operator or the guide ever expects to be tipped for spending their time, fuel, and expertise guiding the draw hunters. Most of them do it 'cause they love it. Tipping whether you pay for it or draw a CWMU tag is a personal thing--I have tipped for antlerless hunts on CWMUs before mostly because I know what it means to do so and what it means to the individual. But don't feel obligated, do it or don't do it because you want or don't want too.


----------



## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Todd, I don't think people are criticizing you...so don't take it personally. From what I know, you don't follow the general stereotyping associated with CWMU units that are spoken of here. My understanding is that a stereotype is simply having a record of experiences that coincide often enough that it becomes the "type" to be expected ...

All you need to do is have your guys who've drawn tags and then tipped you come on here and share their good experiences. I.e... "I had a great experience hunting with {insert name of guide/landowner} and felt they earned a tip." However, I don't think it is a conspiracy theory to say "I didn't tip my cwmu guide/landowner because they...didn't earn it".

In my experience with more than a few CWMU operators/landowners, the paying customer nearly ALWAYS gets special accomodations of some kind - like getting more time to hunt the unit than just the minimum required by the state, or the paying client getting free roam while the draw hunter is restricted in how much of the unit they can hunt or they are allowed only in certain areas on the unit. If this happens on enough CWMU units, it becomes a stereotype, and deserves criticism, IMHO. 

Personally, I feel that the CWMU system ought to be at least a 50/50 opportunity for paying/draw customers. On the issue of tipping, if I were to draw a CWMU permit and were treated with what I felt was professionalism, the gent would receive a tip (monetary or gift - not "pointers or advice) for their efforts... but like I said, I'd base it on how they were as a guide/outfitter, not necessarily on the "quality" of the animal.


----------



## treedagain (Nov 21, 2009)

i have a feeling somebody hurt blanding boys feeling by suggesting that we dont want to get on our knees and kiss his ring and admit he is our savor and our game herds would be in the tank if we did not have the landowners to save us all...oh shoot our deer herds are about as low as they have ever been......it is all about the $$$$...dont try and take away his check book or you will get a lecture......


----------



## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

I have a good friend that guides for an outfitter in the Morgan and Peterson areas.

I know for a fact that this particular CWMU takes very good care of their public hunters. I know that he personally guides many of these people on their Moose / Deer / Elk hunts and doesn't steer them away from any particular buck, or bull. He tells me in most cases, the public hunter often elects to shoot the first decent buck or bull they see even if they know they might get something bigger if they are patient.

That said, he has said that he knows of other operators that don't run things in the same manner. In the case where the public hunter feels he or she is mistreated should be reported to the DWR, and to the RAC meetings. I personally don't have any experience with CWMU's although I believe I drew a tag this year on one.

As for a tip, I think if I were personally guided, and treated like the private hunter I'd be more willing to tip. However it would be nothing like a tip from a private hunter who paid $6000 to take a 22 inch 4-point.


----------



## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Blanding_Boy said:


> Good to see the CWMU conspiracy continuing--I've been absent for a while but things haven't changed too much with some of you :?
> 
> Whether you choose to believe it or not, for the most part operators of CWMUs want the state/public/draw hunter to be successful. The success or failure of the CWMU program hinges on them being happy (which the majority of the time is whether or not they kill something). Those that get it (the majority) understand that and bend over backwards to ensure a guy has a good time, is successful, feed and lodge them, and in many cases kills the biggest animal (happens every year).
> 
> As to the tipping deal, IMO, there is a big difference in the operator and the guide most of the time. I don't think the operator or the guide ever expects to be tipped for spending their time, fuel, and expertise guiding the draw hunters. Most of them do it 'cause they love it. Tipping whether you pay for it or draw a CWMU tag is a personal thing--I have tipped for antlerless hunts on CWMUs before mostly because I know what it means to do so and what it means to the individual. But don't feel obligated, do it or don't do it because you want or don't want too.


DingDingDing...There YOU go. I have to agree with Blanding_Boy. IMO most operators and guides want to give hunters a good experience. I am sure there is always an exception, but far from the rule.

As a rule most hunters are cheapasses and IMO are looking for an excuse to not offer a tip. If the guide worked his butt off for you give him a tip. :roll:

Here is another tip, if you have heartache the way a CWMU is operated, DON'T APPLY FOR A CWMU TAG! :roll: :roll: :roll:


----------



## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Never have, never will... My GOD could you be any more ambiguous? :lol:


----------



## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

I called an operator to get some information on a CWMU, he pretty much told me if I draw the tag they will take us on a tour and show us where we can hunt and what areas are "off limits for the draw tag." Can they do this, only allow the draw tag on to certain areas of the CWMU???


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I've hunted cow elk on a CWMU tag and when I showed up, the guide took me out in his truck, filled with his gas, gutted my elk, loaded it up, and then loaded it in my truck. And I tipped him. I had to go up twice to fill the tag, and had a different guide each time. I tipped both guides - even on the day I didn't get an elk. The guides were polite, and in my case, I felt it appropriate to tip them.


----------



## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Never have, never will... My GOD could you be any more ambiguous? :lol:


Could you be any more sarcastic? BTW...nice job, that is a pretty big word.


----------



## hotspot (Jan 12, 2009)

I guess the CWMU operator that lives 3 doors away from me is in the minority. He runs a rather large ranch with his family. I had a conversation about hunting on his place a while back. Let's just say when the conversation was over I thought to myself no way in heck am I running to apply for CWMU. His own words to me were something to the fact that if a few large bucks are on his place there is no way the public non paying hunter was going to end up with them. To much money at stake for that to happen. He also stated thats why the public hunter has the least amount of time on his ranch. I was really turned off on how he viewed the public hunter from the draw system. He said every year it's a joke when they show up thinking they are going to shoot the ranches big deer. 

Not to hijack the thread so as to the idea of tipping. Go hunt the CWMU and if you feel they gave you the best worthy of your tip. Then tip away. I agree CWMU should be a larger ratio. Isn't it 9:1?


----------



## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

I'll have to report back on my experience. I contacted a few outfits before I applied. The ones I felt were decent enough I applied for.

The operator of the CWMU I applied for said the entire CWMU would be open for the public hunter. So we'll see. They even allow pre-season scouting to learn the area. I typically don't go out longer than 5 days so the 5 days they allow is plenty of time.

I don't think all operators are bad, but I've heard some really bad things about some. You can rate the CWMU on the DWR website. Ones with poor ratings, I stayed away from. The one I applied with had decent public ratings.

I'm not sure that tipping will even be an issue with the hunt I might of drawn. Not even sure if they provide a guide for you.

The only thing that I found interesting is that there are only two 5-day blocks. One at the beginning of October, and one at the beginning of November. He has indicated he would prefer the public hunter to hunt November. I do find this interesting because I would prefer hunting in October.


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't know. A chance to hunt late November is a great time. The deer are just silly love-struck. Deer that are cautious and reclusive in October are out chasing tail throughout the day and don't care what else is going on. Late November hunts are the bomb. My absolutely favorite time to hunt deer.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

bwhntr said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > Never have, never will... My GOD could you be any more ambiguous? :lol:
> ...


I know, I had to look it up...


----------



## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Why is it that in the past 10 years everyone expects a freak'n tip? I remember that only certain people were supposed to get tipped; wait staff, bell hop, parking valet. Now I am expected to tip the carwash guy, the barber, the grocery bagger, the plumber, the RC Willey delivery driver, the landscaper and not to mention the guy that I just paid 8K for a deer hunt.

Tips should be something that comes from the client and should go to the guide for an above expectation service and should not be expected by anyone; especially a landowner or a CWMU operator. If what you get paid is not enough and you expect a tip then you seriously need to be re-evaluating your profession of choice.


----------



## deerlove (Oct 20, 2010)

Why would you want the non paying customer killing the best bucks or bull? You WANT that guy dropping the coin with you EVERY year being successful.


----------



## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

deerlove said:


> Why would you want the non paying customer killing the best bucks or bull? You WANT that guy dropping the coin with you EVERY year being successful.


Because the reason they *can* sell a tag to the guy dropping the coin is the non-paying customer.


----------



## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

GaryFish

Yeah November is a decent time to hunt. But the two hunters they allow to hunt with me assuming I drew the tag will be my 10 and 8 year old. Would prefer it to be a little warmer out if I can. Plus I've always noticed the deer rutting in late November in stead of the first week. I guess it would depend on whether or not we've had early snow fall.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

So I was a member of the CWMU Committee for 5 years and here are some highlights for what has been said --

- The operator may require a guide, but they can not require you to reimburse the guide in any manner. Of course you may tip, reimburse the guide if you see fit. Most Operators guide everyone, while some only guide the paying clients and other only guide the public hunter. Myself, I would be leery of any CWMU which only guided the public hunter. 

-A public hunter must get at least 5 days to hunt bucks/bulls. The public hunter must also have the opportunity to hunt Nov if the CWMU has that extension. Antlerless get at least 2 days. 

-Here is a change in the Rule: The whole ranch must be available to the public hunter. --EXCEPT if the CWMU has non-hunting zones within its Plan filed with the UDWR and identified to all hunters. That means if you show up to hunt and they say "well you can't go there", and it is not an area defined as non-hunting by the management plan, they are in violation of the Rule. If you are required a guide and he will not take you to whatever open part of the ranch then they are in violation of the Rule. They can't say "we have a client in such and such an area, you have to stay out of there". Pretty simple.

-Here is how I view the public hunter--- CWMU X charges $5,000 for a deer tag. The public gets the 1st permit and they get 9 to sell. To me, the public hunter's permit helped the CWMU sell $45,000 worth of hunts. The public hunter should be treated fairly. I know some will argue that the Ranch could sell trespass under the general hunts, but if that was just as good then they would never have joined a CWMU. The public hunter should be the focus! 

-There are some really great CWMUs and some very poor CWMUs. I wish the UDWR had more teeth to restrict the poorly run CWMUs. The CWMU program has some very strong points and I think many will admit that a few (less than 10%) spoil the reputation of the program. If people have problems with their CWMU hunt then they should file a complaint with the UDWR. edit to add there are some really great public hunters and some very poor public hunters also...


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

looks like a old hunting buddy drew a cwmu tags this year and after he talked to the owner he will be stayingon the property at a cabin he can have a cook for the hunt along with the use of a couple of rhinos and a guide is avalable to help him on his hunt. for all outword apperances this appears to be a good cwmu unit im going along as a guest as well as another friend. the only cost is going to be for the guide for ole dan and the cook for us and we furnish the fuel for the rhinos as this hunt unfolds ill give out more details both good and bad for know were just going to wait and see. another cwmu unit he hunted for moose a couple of years ago ( Skull crack) was a real pleasure for him on the scale of 1-5 he would have given them a 10 he was treated so well and the bull he harvest was a 157 boone/crocket bull


----------



## legacy (Sep 30, 2007)

I've drawn 2 CWMU permits. 1 for pronghorn and 1 for Mule Deer. The operator of the Pronghorn unit specifically told me to stay away from certain areas and to just "glass from the road" because he had "high paying clients who didn't pay all that money to see other hunters". This was after I had gone through the process of contacting the operator prior to applying for the hunt. After my complaints that units Pronghorn tags were permanantly yanked. This hunt was a freaking joke. 

My Mule Deer hunt was good although I know for a fact that we were steered away from the one area of the unit where most of the bucks were shot. This information came directly from the landowner who we ran into on the back side of the property 3 days into our hunt. His words were..."Why aren't you hunting where they kill all of the bucks?" Up to that point we hadn't seen 1 buck. When we changed locations it all made sense and guess what? We started seeing bucks aplenty. Come to find out the operators dad had drawn the other public tag and guess where he was hunting to begin with?

Would I ever hunt a CWMU again? Yes. I would just caution anyone who is applying for a CWMU to do their research. I believe there has been strides made in the past couple of years to try to improve the CWMU program. Would I tip on a CWMU public tag? NO.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

This year I contemplated hunting the Deseret cwmu for deer. The operation is under new management. The new management sucks imho. I was told I could not bring my kids on this hunt and I was also told It would be me and the guide hunting. Who wants to go an a hunt and hunt with someone they dont know. You cant use a wheeler so this means you wont be able to cover as much ground. Sure you would probably kill a big buck but it would be an empty feeling imho. The hunt also takes place after the paying client has hunted the deer for a few weeks. I really dont want sloppy seconds on any hunt. This is the main reason I choose archery. 

I did hunt there for a doe antelope a few years ago and they let me take my kids with me. One of the funnest hunts ive had. Not so sure they will let you do this though with the new management.


----------



## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I drew Deseret cow and doe in 93 and 94. Both years I was not allowed to bring anyone. A friend of mine went with me but he also had cow tags both years as well. We were given maps of the areas we could and couldn't go to as well as strict guideline about staying on roads, no building fires, burying gutpiles, and the time we had to be at the gate to check out. We had a good time and filled out tags both years but it was not the hunt we expected. The second year we knew the drill and just took care of business. And BTW we only had 2 Saturdays to hunt never on Sunday.


----------



## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

There are lots of reason why CWMU operators want someone with you. Some landowners within CWMU's have honery neighbors and just want to make sure you color within the lines. Hunting on the wrong property can create a big mess for them. Some want to make sure you are a responsible hunter and not out wounding a bunch of game. Some want to make sure that you are closing thier gates because they may have livestock or don't want trespassers to see an open gate and help themselves. Some don't want to give you a key or the combination to the locks on their gates. Some want to make sure you are staying on the roads. Some want to make sure you are hunting the property in a manner that doesn't blow the game to the next county. Some want to make sure you aren't running over thier irrigation piping or in their fields. Think about littering, target practicing on signs, or all the other ways people abuse your public ground. Some sincerely want to help in addition to these other things. 

There are lots of motivations for having someone accompany you but I suppose it's human nature to assume the worst.


----------



## Markthehunter88 (Nov 5, 2010)

bullsnot said:


> There are lots of reason why CWMU operators want someone with you. Some landowners within CWMU's have honery neighbors and just want to make sure you color within the lines. Hunting on the wrong property can create a big mess for them. Some want to make sure you are a responsible hunter and not out wounding a bunch of game. Some want to make sure that you are closing thier gates because they may have livestock or don't want trespassers to see an open gate and help themselves. Some don't want to give you a key or the combination to the locks on their gates. Some want to make sure you are staying on the roads. Some want to make sure you are hunting the property in a manner that doesn't blow the game to the next county. Some want to make sure you aren't running over thier irrigation piping or in their fields. Think about littering, target practicing on signs, or all the other ways people abuse your public ground. Some sincerely want to help in addition to these other things.
> 
> There are lots of motivations for having someone accompany you but I suppose it's human nature to assume the worst.


looking at it like that...you said it! haha If it was my land I would be the same way... but if I was the hunter I would expect to be treated differently! just me being honest! HAHA


----------



## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> There are lots of reason why CWMU operators want someone with you. Some landowners within CWMU's have honery neighbors and just want to make sure you color within the lines. Hunting on the wrong property can create a big mess for them. Some want to make sure you are a responsible hunter and not out wounding a bunch of game. Some want to make sure that you are closing thier gates because they may have livestock or don't want trespassers to see an open gate and help themselves. Some don't want to give you a key or the combination to the locks on their gates. Some want to make sure you are staying on the roads. Some want to make sure you are hunting the property in a manner that doesn't blow the game to the next county. Some want to make sure you aren't running over thier irrigation piping or in their fields. Think about littering, target practicing on signs, or all the other ways people abuse your public ground. Some sincerely want to help in addition to these other things.
> 
> There are lots of motivations for having someone accompany you but I suppose it's human nature to assume the worst.


+1 1/8! Good post.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

bwhntr said:


> bullsnot said:
> 
> 
> > There are lots of reason why CWMU operators want someone with you. Some landowners within CWMU's have honery neighbors and just want to make sure you color within the lines. Hunting on the wrong property can create a big mess for them. Some want to make sure you are a responsible hunter and not out wounding a bunch of game. Some want to make sure that you are closing thier gates because they may have livestock or don't want trespassers to see an open gate and help themselves. Some don't want to give you a key or the combination to the locks on their gates. Some want to make sure you are staying on the roads. Some want to make sure you are hunting the property in a manner that doesn't blow the game to the next county. Some want to make sure you aren't running over thier irrigation piping or in their fields. Think about littering, target practicing on signs, or all the other ways people abuse your public ground. Some sincerely want to help in addition to these other things.
> ...


+2 1/4


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Great post Bullsnot. One private land deer hunt I went on many years ago, the landowner took us out in his truck and had us on deer within minutes of arriving. It wasn't a CWMU - just a private ranch in Montana. He knew his land, and he knew where the deer were, and when, pretty much all the time. He did ask that I not shoot the biggest bucks, because he was saving those for a neighbor kid for his first deer. But I did get a nice deer - a very solid four point. He wanted me to have a successful hunt, and wanted me to get a nice deer. And I was grateful for his guiding services. Any kind of private land hunting I feel, is an absolute privilege to be there. Even if the landowner gets 9 tags to make money and allows one non-paying hunter to take one in exchange. It is his land, and I am his guest.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Those are some great posts by Gary and Bull. It is a privilege for both parties in the CWMU program-- the private and public partnership. My input is just meant to explain some misunderstandings. I have had both great and poor experiences on CWMU -- guided and non-guided.


----------



## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

Even better post, GaryFish! However, I am going to offer up this different angle. You were on private land, not a CWMU. The landowner asked that you not shoot the bigger buck, and explained why. Makes sense. You were a guest on his land... Makes sense. 

NOW... (and I don't want this to come across as an attack at you or the program, cuz it's not. It's an attack on the CWMU Operators)

The CWMU program is in place to help these landowners make money. But part of that program is that the operators are supposed to follow certain rules & regulations. The very least of which is that they are to offer the non-paying tag holder the EXACT same opportunity that the paying hunter gets. But an operator or guide saying "You can't go there" to a draw hunter... that's crap. Honestly, I wish more than anything that the DWR could regulate it tighter... But they put the trust in the operator... and leave it at that. They say a negative feedback will get the tags yanked... But somehow, Terry Thatcher on the Heaston East unit still gets tags every year. I've yet to hear one positive story from any draw hunter. But I've heard/read way more than enough negative ones. I've even heard of him or his people taking people off of the CWMU land to fill tags. THAT should be illegal and prosecuted, in my opinion.


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So let me ask this question. What if a CWMU also limits their paying clients to certain hunting areas? For example, a large operation might have half a dozen paying clients scattered around the property at any given time. If the operator puts them in "zones" and requests they stay in that zone in order for them to have a totally private hunt, and not bug the other 5 guys out there, then it seems they could give the same treatment to a draw tag holder? 

Just thinking out loud here.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

It does not matter if the CWMU restricts access to their private client. 

R657-37-7. Operation by Landowner Association.

(b) General public CWMU permitees shall be allowed to hunt the entire CWMU except areas that are excluded from hunting to all permittees.


----------



## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

According to what I read earlier, and what I've also heard, I don't know that this would be fully legal. If a unit is off limits, it's off limits for everyone, and needs to be specified well ahead of time. I do understand the concept of your zones though. And it makes sense. However, how easy is it for an operator to put Johnny Draw Hunter in the craptacular zone if his unit is run in zones? It's too easy to discriminate against the non-paying hunter... Which is the exact opposite of what the program is intended to do.


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Interesting. I can see how that would be the legal basis, but I can also see how a functional situation could lend to a CWMU operator wanting any hunter, to stay in a certain area. Talking with the guides on a CWMU where I had the chance to shoot a cow elk, they said they enjoyed guiding the public draw hunter FAAAAARRRRR more than the paying hunters. Even though the draw hunters tipped much less, if at all, compared to the pay hunters. They said the public hunters just appreciated them much more. On this particular CWMU, they said they did their best to get a hunter on the best possible animal, regardless of draw vs. pay hunter. If that was the case or just lip service, I really don't know. 

As a side note, this is a great discussion. I am learning from the various points of view. Very good discussion.


----------



## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

This has been a very educational thread for me as I should have drawn a CWMU tag with the amount of points I had for the particular unit.

I researched a few before I put in and called the operators to try and get a feel for them on the phone. The ones that came across geniune I put in for. Truthfully, I had only 6 points and didn't want to wait another 5-6 years to draw a LE unit. I'd really like to start putting in for my 15 year wait for a trophy bull. 

I put in for the Junction Valley CWMU also known as South Creek Outfitters. I have two sons going with me ages 10, and 8. My 8 year olds first hunt. This unit looked to offer seeing a lot of deer which I want to get my 8 year old more excited than he already is. There seems to be some decent deer up there, but most 22-24 inch decent 4 points which I am fine with. Just want the boys to have a good time.

If we show up and the guide or operator tells me I can't hunt this certain draw or mountain (and its not designated non-hunting), can I just tell him to stick it, or is it best to do as asked and report the issue?

Anyone have experience with Junction Valley? In my communication with the operator, he's been very helpful and nice to speak to. Been very informative and returned emails, etc.


----------



## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

I completely agree... Excellent discussion.

I'm sure the public hunter was MUCH more appreciative. They are in a situation where they wouldn't otherwise be. Figure a deer tag is anywhere from maybe $4500 on up. I've heard of a former Jazz player paying $20,000 for an elk sized deer a handful of years back. I'm sure the dollar amount was inflated. 

I just wish that I could put faith in the CWMU program. It is such an awesome program. But truth be told, you shouldn't have to contact the operator first to get a feel for how their program is run. It should be cut & dry... A, B, C... type stuff. I know I was going to apply for a Deseret doe antelope tag a few years back, but opted out of it when I heard all of the mumbo jumbo. Not that I couldn't do it all, but knowing that I only was going to get one day to hunt... If something came up (death in the family for example) that took precedence, I was toast. I just feel there should be much more flexibility on the operators end... Considering that the state is doing this in conjunction with them.


----------



## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

I agree you shouldn't have to contact the operators to get a feeling of whether or not it would be a waste of your time. Everyone should follow the rules set into place. Unfortunately as you have mentioned, to many have given public hunters bad experiences. I have heard multiple issues with Thatcher on Heaston as well. My friends and I have had bad experiences as general hunters with the operator of Redd Ranches down on the La Sal Mountains with him trying to keep general hunters out of public land adjacent to his. But, I can understand if he's being proactive in keeping the public off his land. It was just that he was trying to keep the public off public land that he guided private hunters into. I do understand though that he does treat the CWMU public draw hunter well.

The rules for CWMUs discussed on this thread have been helpful.


----------



## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

Am I crazy to think that a person who is taken off of their CWMU unit to take an animal should be treated as a poacher, and prosecuted as such? What about the guide/operator in that situation? My logic behind this one is simple... If you purchased a unit 15 tag, and hunted unit 18... How would you be treated? Yes, you were in season, but wrong unit. Whether they call that poaching or not, I don't know... but it should still be prosecuted. I know if you are hunting public land, and cross over in to a CWMU, it is treated as a felony. I know of a guy that this happened to I think it was 4 years ago now, out in Tooele. Why shouldn't it be the same?


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

It is the same. CWMUs are "mini-units" and a person must have a valid CWMU permit to hunt them. It is poaching to hunt within a CWMU without a permit and it is poaching for a CWMU hunter to hunt outside the CWMU boundaries. There have been convictions both ways.

BigT- Gary is a decent fellow.


----------



## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks Packout...

Thats been my experience with Gary thus far. I don't suspect it'll change.

So if an operator or the guide pushes a hunter knowingly onto public property and take game from that area who is prosecuted? The hunter or the guide?

There is prime public property adjacent to these ranches all over the state extremely difficult to get to unless on private property. My friend had an LE archery elk tag for the La Sal unit. Was chasing after a 380 inch bull on Burro Pass which is public property. The operator there tried to have him arrested for using a county maintained road that ran through Redd Ranches. Thankfully, he did his research and had already contacted the county sheriff and knew he could go on the road. This road has since been forfeited by the county thus all but giving the CWMU this prime public property.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I not totally sure im correct but I think there are cwmu's with public property in them. Maybe this is one of them.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

BigT- Unfortunately, there is public land included within some CWMUs. This is a whole can of worms that will derail any other CWMU talk within a post. I have no idea about the situation you spoke of, but I see it highly unlikely that a County/Gov't agency would forfeit a right-of-way which accesses public lands. I don't know though, but here is a part of the CWMU Rule concerning public right-of-ways: (the landowner association refers to members of a CWMU)

R657-37-13. Rights-of-Way.
A landowner association member may not restrict established public access to public land enclosed by the CWMU.


----------



## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> I not totally sure im correct but I think there are cwmu's with public property in them. Maybe this is one of them.


But still, it doesn't give the operator the right to kick people off of that public land, or to pull his clients on to that public land to harvest an animal.



BigT said:


> Thanks Packout...
> 
> Thats been my experience with Gary thus far. I don't suspect it'll change.
> 
> So if an operator or the guide pushes a hunter knowingly onto public property and take game from that area who is prosecuted? The hunter or the guide?


I would assume both. It should be the responsibility of the hunter to know where he/she is hunting, and that of the guide to know their land as well. Either way, guilt by association.


----------



## Ziggy321 (Aug 27, 2013)

*Utahhunter*

Drew out a cwmu in Utah. Upon arrival a young man greeted
Us and let us know that if we needed any help locating elk he would be happy to help.
After two long days of hunting with little success, we walked to his trailer and asked for advice. He pulled out a map and we pointed out the areas we had hunted on the hundred thousand acre ranch. He grinned and said you missed them by two canyons. He showed us where to go the next morning and even where to sit. Long story short, six point bull and a tip well earned. Thanks Matt (handicapped unpaid volunteer camp host)


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> There are lots of reason why CWMU operators want someone with you. Some landowners within CWMU's have honery neighbors and just want to make sure you color within the lines. Hunting on the wrong property can create a big mess for them. Some want to make sure you are a responsible hunter and not out wounding a bunch of game. Some want to make sure that you are closing thier gates because they may have livestock or don't want trespassers to see an open gate and help themselves. Some don't want to give you a key or the combination to the locks on their gates. Some want to make sure you are staying on the roads. Some want to make sure you are hunting the property in a manner that doesn't blow the game to the next county. Some want to make sure you aren't running over thier irrigation piping or in their fields. Think about littering, target practicing on signs, or all the other ways people abuse your public ground. Some sincerely want to help in addition to these other things.
> 
> There are lots of motivations for having someone accompany you but I suppose it's human nature to assume the worst.


Congrats on the draw and welcome to the forum!


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

I along with a lot of others have been able to enjoy the cwmu program and while I haven't tipped the operators I have drawn I have on numerous occasions tipped the folks they had guide me. there just working for a living like everyone else and if the hunts was enjoyable I like to give them a little bonus. there is nothing that says you have to tip its just some you as a hunter decide to do are not to do.


----------

