# Wolfs confirmed in Utah



## inbowrange

Just on the radio the DWR just confirmed there are wolfs in Utah. I do not believe in poaching one bit but if one is in range its going down. This SUCKS!


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## bucksandducks

You dont believe in poaching but you are going to poach? :roll: We will see how this turns out.


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## EPEK

Wolves have been delisted inside the I15 I80 cooridor, so it would not be poaching, theys the same as wiley coyote.


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## fixed blade XC-3

It's true, by elk it was nice hunting you. 

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2892224#


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## HOGAN

FUC* they are in open bull country on top of that../. That pisses me off. Open bulls are hard enough to hunt without stupid wolves hasseling them.


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## fixed blade XC-3

HOGAN said:


> FUC* they are in open bull country on top of that../. That **** me off. Open bulls are hard enough to hunt without stupid wolves hasseling them.


+1 that's very close to were I hunt. :evil:


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## huntnbum

Too close to were I hunt -#&#*!-


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## soules2007

Sounds like a pack, alpha male and female, (that is purley speculation) I have poured over both sides of the wolf issue, from nature lovers websites and forums, and big game and hunter forums, have been on the ground in idaho talking with farmers/ranchers. And I believe the reintroduction of the wolf is a complete mess. like introducing a virus with an illegal cure. Some of the ralph maughn clan have sent out PMs saying it will be great for the wolf to flourish and really make a noticable diffrence in herd size. This will give them a foothold so to speak, saying that humans are no longer need to balance the herd size, That the real naturaL PREDATOR will keep the circle of life in check. They want to eliminate hunting by humans. This is extremist and a long way down the road, but more than likley everyone on this forum has seen how extremist these groups can be. They have killed people, burnt homes,businesses,and other personal property all in the name of saving the animals. I really am not sure about the delisting part i was under the impression that the 28 of march was the fed delist day. and most states that do have a plan are issuing tags, ( the delisting between the 15 and the 80 i will have to reread). But utah may let them be on the same scale as coyotes i had not heard that. Thanks for the info EPEK. With all the attention this pack is getting i would not lock and load just yet. let the rancher who finds 5 downed calfs pull the trigger i know hes legal. :twisted: :evil: One last thing if the pack did go to wyoming i am sure glad the DWR is baiting them and inviting them back. :roll:


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## Elkoholic8

Where is the official written word on wolf management? I sure hate to see them invade the state but I would like to know if they really are listed as protected (and huntable) or unprotected (like the yote's). If so I say load up and lets go find them. There is a reason they were eliminated years ago. 

We could get GW to say they are a weapon of mass destruction (no BS on that) and send in the ******* troops.


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## soules2007

Huntergeek, you called it a few weeks back, and you were questioned about your source. Well what ever you source is its a good one. Great heads up.


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## Mojo1

I shot a coyote, that's my story and I'm sticking too it. :twisted:


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## Nor-tah

Thats freaking crazy! Its official... That KSL story is nutz. I can just picture those guys listening and hearing the pack call back.


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## caddis8

It doesn't surprise me at all. We've had more than enough evidence and time for them to show up. However, I'm surprised, however, at the location of the sighting. I figured they would be sighted either in North Western Utah(Park Valley, Grouse Creek) coming down out of the Sawtooths Range, or they would come through Cache Valley(like they have previously done). Dutch John shows how far they have traveled south from Yellowstone...


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## huntinco

S,S & S


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## fixed blade XC-3

I've always heard the wolves would fallow the Green river Right into utah. Looks like my pappy was right.


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## bigbr

*Re: From the other side*

I get a kick out of all the potential wolf skinners that have posted about what they will do should they see a wolf while out hunting. Having spent a few years in Alaska, I can tell you that wolf sightings during day light hours are few and far between and that is in a state that has well over 50,000 wolves. I would dare say that maybe three out of all the members on this board will encounter a wolf in Utah in a lifetime of outdoor recreation.

I have both hunted and trapped for wolf, and they are one of the most intelligent, cunning, secretive and organized animals in our eco system. Wolf rarely come out of cover to a predator call and nine out of ten times they have been alerted to your presence before you can set up. If you want the ultimate challenge hunt wolf.

Am I happy that wolves are here in Utah? No! But I confirmed the presence of wolves in Utah almost six years ago. I did not need an eye witness account from an official Utah DWR officer to confirm that wolves were here in Utah either.

Should any one want to see what the green side thinks? Go here and sign up: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/utahwolves/

You might get an education. But one thing for sure, you will get a perspective.

I have been a member for about five years and I get emails about twice weekly. I feel that it is very important for sportsmen to know who they are battling with.

Good wolf huntinn
Bigbr _(O)_ _(O)_ :mrgreen:


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## bwhntr

What a kick in the nuts! First thing in the morning and I read about a pack of wolves nearby where I like to hunt elk. I read somewhere several months ago that the Flaming Gorge area is a direct pathway for them to travel down through. I was hoping it wasn't true, but now here we are.


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## OKEE

I hate wolves. Must be all those childhood stories I read Always trying to eat things they should'nt: :lol: :lol:


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## marksman

Come on guys this is like a sasquatch sighting


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## soules2007

so marksman it was you!? you made the fake prints, paid the pilot,and responded with digital format calls to the dwr calls. You da man!  _(O)_


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## Levy

> I get a kick out of all the potential wolf skinners that have posted about what they will do should they see a wolf while out hunting. Having spent a few years in Alaska, I can tell you that wolf sightings during day light hours are few and far between and that is in a state that has well over 50,000 wolves. I would dare say that maybe three out of all the members on this board will encounter a wolf in Utah in a lifetime of outdoor recreation.
> 
> I have both hunted and trapped for wolf, and they are one of the most intelligent, cunning, secretive and organized animals in our eco system. Wolf rarely come out of cover to a predator call and nine out of ten times they have been alerted to your presence before you can set up. If you want the ultimate challenge hunt wolf.
> 
> Am I happy that wolves are here in Utah? No! But I confirmed the presence of wolves in Utah almost six years ago. I did not need an eye witness account from an official Utah DWR officer to confirm that wolves were here in Utah either.
> 
> Should any one want to see what the green side thinks? Go here and sign up: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/utahwolves/
> 
> You might get an education. But one thing for sure, you will get a perspective.
> 
> I have been a member for about five years and I get emails about twice weekly. I feel that it is very important for sportsmen to know who they are battling with.


I couldn't agree more.


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## soules2007

*Re: From the other side*



bigbr said:


> I get a kick out of all the potential wolf skinners that have posted about what they will do should they see a wolf while out hunting. Having spent a few years in Alaska, I can tell you that wolf sightings during day light hours are few and far between and that is in a state that has well over 50,000 wolves. I would dare say that maybe three out of all the members on this board will encounter a wolf in Utah in a lifetime of outdoor recreation.
> 
> I have both hunted and trapped for wolf, and they are one of the most intelligent, cunning, secretive and organized animals in our eco system. Wolf rarely come out of cover to a predator call and nine out of ten times they have been alerted to your presence before you can set up. If you want the ultimate challenge hunt wolf.
> 
> Am I happy that wolves are here in Utah? No! But I confirmed the presence of wolves in Utah almost six years ago. I did not need an eye witness account from an official Utah DWR officer to confirm that wolves were here in Utah either.
> 
> Should any one want to see what the green side thinks? Go here and sign up: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/utahwolves/
> 
> You might get an education. But one thing for sure, you will get a perspective.
> 
> I have been a member for about five years and I get emails about twice weekly. I feel that it is very important for sportsmen to know who they are battling with.
> 
> Good wolf huntinn
> Bigbr _(O)_ _(O)_ :mrgreen:


Bigbr, just a question you seem to have more experience with wolves than most, I have heard from a few sources that the reintroduced wolf is not acting the same as a the traditional grey wolf. I am currently trying to find some sort of written info backing up what i have been told verbally by some highly reliable sources, some are saying that the packs are larger than traditional packs, they have less fear of being spotted by humans, (i still cannot find where a human has been attacked by a wolf in the lower 48, to my knowledge a human has never been attacked in the lower 48). But a lot of reports from outfitters and other sportsman are saying that wolves have really gotten bold as far as coming into camps chasing horses, and one group of hunters doing a quik day before scouting trip claim they were chased by wolves(they had no weapons as the hunt had not started yet). This behavior they say only happens when the wolves are starving, the wolves are not starving. A source in the Idaho fish and game says this behavior will change once the hunting starts. Just curious what you think of these claims?


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## bigbr

*Re: From the other side*



> "soules2007 Wrote:" I have heard from a few sources that the reintroduced wolf is not acting the same as a the traditional grey wolf. Some are saying that the packs are larger than traditional packs, they have less fear of being spotted by humans, (i still cannot find where a human has been attacked by a wolf in the lower 48, to my knowledge a human has never been attacked in the lower 48). But a lot of reports from outfitters and other sportsman are saying that wolves have really gotten bold as far as coming into camps chasing horses, and one group of hunters doing a quik day before scouting trip claim they were chased by wolves(they had no weapons as the hunt had not started yet). This behavior they say only happens when the wolves are starving, the wolves are not starving. A source in the Idaho fish and game says this behavior will change once the hunting starts. Just curious what you think of these claims?


Most of the transplants into Yellow Stone were juvenile dogs, (hard to live trap Alphas,) so the fear factor was not learned behavior. My opinion is that hunting will be the difference and especially aerial hunting in regards to conditioning the Yellow Stone wolf migrated packs. Wolves learn quick about what and where to aviod.

Pack size is generally an indication of competition and food availability. Pack sizes while reduce as the prey base reduces.

Bigbr


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## proutdoors

*Re: From the other side*



bigbr said:


> Pack size is generally an indication of competition and food availability. Pack sizes while reduce as the prey base reduces.
> 
> Bigbr


So, when all the elk are gone, the packs will "reduce" in size. Great, I can't wait. :roll:


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## coyoteslayer

> I get a kick out of all the potential wolf skinners that have posted about what they will do should they see a wolf while out hunting. Having spent a few years in Alaska, I can tell you that wolf sightings during day light hours are few and far between and that is in a state that has well over 50,000 wolves. I would dare say that maybe three out of all the members on this board will encounter a wolf in Utah in a lifetime of outdoor recreation.
> 
> I have both hunted and trapped for wolf, and they are one of the most intelligent, cunning, secretive and organized animals in our eco system. Wolf rarely come out of cover to a predator call and nine out of ten times they have been alerted to your presence before you can set up. If you want the ultimate challenge hunt wolf.
> 
> Am I happy that wolves are here in Utah? No! But I confirmed the presence of wolves in Utah almost six years ago. I did not need an eye witness account from an official Utah DWR officer to confirm that wolves were here in Utah either.


I disagree. I believe wolves are a lot easier to hunt than coyotes. We have exterminated the wolves before and we have never came close to exterminating the coyote. Wolves roam in bigger packs and they tend to be more vocal. I have a friend in Idaho and he said its very easy to find wolves up there. A lot of times you just have to look for the dead elk carcasses and you will find wolves. He sees them all the time and they aren't afraid of humans like the coyote.

He said this winter one pack of wolves killed 18 deer in one night on his ranch and they never ate any of them.



> Having spent a few years in Alaska, I can tell you that wolf sightings during day light hours are few and far between and that is in a state that has well over 50,000 wolves. I would dare say that maybe three out of all the members on this board will encounter a wolf in Utah in a lifetime of outdoor recreation.


Isn't Alaska a lot bigger than Utah and more remote??? I think the Mountain lion fits your logic here: they are one of the most intelligent, cunning, secretive animals in our eco system. But yet we still have people see Mountain lions yearly.


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## fixed blade XC-3

coyoteslayer said:


> I disagree. I believe wolves are a lot easier to hunt than coyotes. We have exterminated the wolves before and we have never came close to exterminating the coyote. Wolves roam in bigger packs and they tend to be more vocal. I have a friend in Idaho and he said its very easy to find wolves up there. A lot of times you just have to look for the dead elk carcasses and you will find wolves. He sees them all the time and they aren't afraid of humans like the coyote.


I agree 100% cs. Good post, it's about time. :roll: Just kiddin big dog.


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## Longgun

*Re: From the other side*

...well fan-_bleepin_'-tastic, really just a matter of time, and a shame IMO.:evil:



proutdoors said:


> bigbr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pack size is generally an indication of competition and food availability. Pack sizes while reduce as the prey base reduces.
> 
> Bigbr
> 
> 
> 
> So, when all the elk are gone, the packs will "reduce" in size. Great, I can't wait. :roll:
Click to expand...

+1, makes exterminating them _*$$ AGAIN $$*_ that much easier :roll: -*|*-


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## InvaderZim

coyoteslayer said:


> I disagree. I believe wolves are a lot easier to hunt than coyotes. We have exterminated the wolves before and we have never came close to exterminating the coyote. Wolves roam in bigger packs and they tend to be more vocal. I have a friend in Idaho and he said its very easy to find wolves up there. A lot of times you just have to look for the dead elk carcasses and you will find wolves. He sees them all the time and they aren't afraid of humans like the coyote.
> 
> He said this winter one pack of wolves killed 18 deer in one night on his ranch and they never ate any of them.
> 
> Isn't Alaska a lot bigger than Utah and more remote??? I think the Mountain lion fits your logic here: they are one of the most intelligent, cunning, secretive animals in our eco system. But yet we still have people see Mountain lions yearly.


CS,

Wolves were _extirpated _from the lower 48 for a variety of reasons, the coyote is still here because of the differences in those reasons.

For instance the wolf requires larger, more extensive territories because of its nutritional requirements. Nutritional requirements that utilize large cervids...not plants, small mammals, carrion, city garbage, and basically anything edible, as with coyotes. We didn't necessarily kill them off by hunting&#8230;we removed their prey.

Also, wolves reproduce differently than coyotes; most notably they produce less frequently and with much small litters. Comparing coyotes to wolves is ludicrous. Particularly so when it comes to removing them from an ecosystem.

I'm sure you'll disagree, that much is obvious, but I'd also like to address your "killer wolves" tale. 18 deer a night? And they didn't eat a one? Sounds like this good friend is full of something wet and smelly. But then again maybe I'm just looking at this thing logically, and for that I apologize.

The Yellowstone wolves are truly a "special breed." They've lost some fear of man, and because of that you're probably right, sightings might be numerous, at least in the beginning. Even with wolves treading near our highly populated areas, after a few months/years of pressure, they'll likely get very cagey. Trappers caught at least two already&#8230;.and they made it ¼ of the way through the state without being seen!

I'm certainly not saying that I'm happy the wolf is here (and I believe it has been here, in some context, for several years) but spouting off ridiculous half-truths, blatantly justifying wanton poaching, and just generally acting like a gun-toting ******* is only going to get the **** things re-listed and hurt all ethical hunters in the long run.

8)


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## bigbr

> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. I believe wolves are a lot easier to hunt than coyotes. We have exterminated the wolves before and we have never came close to exterminating the coyote. Wolves roam in bigger packs and they tend to be more vocal. I have a friend in Idaho and he said its very easy to find wolves up there. A lot of times you just have to look for the dead elk carcasses and you will find wolves. He sees them all the time and they aren't afraid of humans like the coyote.
> 
> He said this winter one pack of wolves killed 18 deer in one night on his ranch and they never ate any of them.
> 
> Isn't Alaska a lot bigger than Utah and more remote??? I think the Mountain lion fits your logic here: they are one of the most intelligent, cunning, secretive animals in our eco system. But yet we still have people see Mountain lions yearly.
Click to expand...

In my opinion and as I have implied by my prior post, the wolves introduced it to Yellow Stone, did not all come from one pack and social group, but were pick ups from random live trapping and most likely mainly younger animals that had not learned the social structure inherent in a broad age structured alpha led pack. Wolves growing up and establishing dominance in a zoo atmosphere around large numbers of visiting park members in Yellow Stone would not have the same learned behaviors as their native Canada grey wolves would (little fear of man.) Remeber We are no talking about Alaskan wolves here.

Having hunted and called wolves in the Swain Hills and Peace River area of Alberta, I can tell you although the wolves may be vocal in that area of Canada, they are hunted and trapped and have become shy of leaving cover during daylight hours, now I am not saying that it does not happen I am just saying that native Canada grey wolves tend to be very suspicious as are hunted coyotes.

My point, and in my opinion, you are dealing with packs of conditioned and socially inept wolves that are truly farm raised government experiments when referring to the Yellow Stone/ Canada grey wolves that have been artificially reintroduced.

Bigbr


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## coyoteslayer

> For instance the wolf requires larger, more extensive territories because of its nutritional requirements. Nutritional requirements that utilize large cervids...not plants, small mammals, carrion, city garbage, and basically anything edible, as with coyotes. We didn't necessarily kill them off by hunting&#8230;we removed their prey.


Zim, you are probably thinking about the Indians. We didnt remove the elk. We didn't remove our sheep and cattle. We simply hunted the wolves. Of course sheep and cattle helped as decoys  They tried to get rid of the coyotes. We poison them, trap them, and even today fly in helocoptors and shoot them. We put bounties on them and their numbers still remain high. Yes Coyotes do have a larger diet which is why its harder to exterminate them.



> I'm sure you'll disagree, that much is obvious, but I'd also like to address your "killer wolves" tale. 18 deer a night? And they didn't eat a one? Sounds like this good friend is full of something wet and smelly. But then again maybe I'm just looking at this thing logically, and for that I apologize.


So basically you are saying it would be impossible?? Do you need a picture or two to be convinced?



> The Yellowstone wolves are truly a "special breed." They've lost some fear of man, and because of that you're probably right, sightings might be numerous, at least in the beginning. Even with wolves treading near our highly populated areas, after a few months/years of pressure, they'll likely get very cagey. Trappers caught at least two already&#8230;.and they made it ¼ of the way through the state without being seen!


The only thing that makes them "special" is the fact that we listed them as endangered. They don't have fear of man if they aren't being hunted. Wolves aren't hard to find. People have said they have see them from time to time but no one believes them until one is trapped.


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## InvaderZim

coyoteslayer said:


> Zim, you are probably thinking about the Indians. We didnt remove the elk. We didn't remove our sheep and cattle. We simply hunted the wolves. Of course sheep and cattle helped as decoys  They tried to get rid of the coyotes. We poison them, trap them, and even today fly in helocoptors and shoot them. We put bounties on them and their numbers still remain high. Yes Coyotes do have a larger diet which is why its harder to exterminate them.


Conversing with you is like trying to swim up the mighty Colorado River with my hands tied behind my back...its just futile. :| I can throw out logic and reason, because using them really does me no good.



coyoteslayer said:


> So basically you are saying it would be impossible?? Do you need a picture or two to be convinced?


Yes, I am saying its anti-wolf rhetoric and he's lying. Prove me wrong.



coyoteslayer said:


> The only thing that makes them "special" is the fact that we listed them as endangered. They don't have fear of man if they aren't being hunted. Wolves aren't hard to find. People have said they have see them from time to time but no one believes them until one is trapped.


I agree, my cousins', uncles', friend jimmy seen one once. Said it was too big to be a coyote. Said he seen it take down 5 elk at once. :roll:

Seriously, I'm as mad as you that wolves have made it here, and it disgusts me the way things have been handled at the federal level. But my point is that people like you are just making it worse.


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## coyoteslayer

> Conversing with you is like trying to swim up the mighty Colorado River with my hands tied behind my back...its just futile. I can throw out logic and reason, because using them really does me no good.


hahaha ZIM are you learning to be a better swimmer now? Do you actually use logic and reason and what is your defination of both?



> But my point is that people like you are just making it worse.


And just how am I making it worse???


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## chet

cs, first off, Zim has people skills..... something which you have very little of.
Second, he has intelligence....... something else you have very little of.

And he is correct, wanton poaching is only going to make our problem worse. And publicly talking about how you're going to illegally remove all that you can is just the icing on the cake.

If you're going to participate in "SSS" please remember what the last "S" stands for.

good day


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## Treehugnhuntr

coyoteslayer said:


> Zim, you are probably thinking about the Indians. *We didnt remove the elk*. We didn't remove our sheep and cattle. We simply hunted the wolves. Of course sheep and cattle helped as decoys  They tried to get rid of the coyotes. We poison them, trap them, and even today fly in helocoptors and shoot them. We put bounties on them and their numbers still remain high. Yes Coyotes do have a larger diet which is why its harder to exterminate them.
Click to expand...

Uuuh, Yeah we did.


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## coyoteslayer

> cs, first off, Zim has people skills..... something which you have very little of.
> Second, he has intelligence....... something else you have very little of.
> 
> And he is correct, wanton poaching is only going to make our problem worse. And publicly talking about how you're going to illegally remove all that you can is just the icing on the cake.
> 
> If you're going to participate in "SSS" please remember what the last "S" stands for.


First off no where in my post did I talk about SSS so you need to learn to read. That was other people talking about that. Zim already has proven his lack thereof on other thread in Everything else. I never once talked about poaching. WOW how do you make through life Chet?

You guys say these type of things when I havent even said them. Now that shows your intelligence right there. Go back and read before you accuse me of something I didnt say :lol: :lol: :shock:


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## coyoteslayer

> Uuuh, Yeah we did.


uuuh no we didn't


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## InvaderZim

coyoteslayer said:


> And just how am I making it worse???


We'll I thought I'd already made that part clear, but I'll tell ya again.

When all the red-necks get up in arms and start claiming they're gonna take things into their own hands, poach wolves, put doctored pics on the internet of wolves killing dogs, and just generally start spewing filth, garbage, and uneducated lies it only serves to give our "opponents" fuel to challenge and beat us with.

A little harsh, but I'm stuck at home doing yard work...so I'm in a pissssed off mood. :mrgreen:

Edited: I see now that you are insinuating that I'm saying YOU personally are making it worse, so let me be clear...I am talking about this "kill-the-wolf-movement" in general terms.


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## coyoteslayer

> When all the red-necks get up in arms and start claiming they're gonna take things into their own hands, poach wolves, put doctored pics on the internet of wolves killing dogs, and just generally start spewing filth, garbage, and uneducated lies it only serves to give our "opponents" fuel to challenge and beat us with.
> 
> A little harsh, but I'm stuck at home doing yard work...so I'm in a **** off mood.


And where did I post such non-sense? Please don't make up lies to try to make me look bad :roll:


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## InvaderZim

InvaderZim said:


> Edited: I see now that you are insinuating that I'm saying YOU personally are making it worse, so let me be clear...I am talking about this "kill-the-wolf-movement" in general terms.


I added this just for you. I would never want to make you look bad. :wink:


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## proutdoors

chet said:


> cs, first off, Zim has people skills..... something which you have very little of.
> Second, he has intelligence....... something else you have very little of.


Since I know 'cs' fairly well. I take offense at your comments toward a friend of mine. A friend that is smarter than most on here. Granted he can come across on the 'net' as crass, but he is every bit as intelligent as Zim, and since I have met and talked with both in person and you have NOT, I'll take my opinion as 'educated' rather than 'uneducated'! Let's stick to the topics and leave the personal attacks out of it, especially if you don't know the person first hand, what a concept! :idea:

I have seen 'documented' evidence of wolves, mountain lions, bears, killing for 'pleasure'. I have seen first hand such acts by mountain lions on sheep. There is a thread on this very forum that shows a mature bull elk with nothing more than a small part of ONE hindquarter eaten by WOLVES. Is that not enough evidence for you? :roll:


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## coyoteslayer

Well Wolves do need to be managed right? They have far exceeded their goal and now its time to let hunters harvest a lot of surplus wolves since they are way over objective. Is there anything wrong with that? Its called management Zim. I disagree with people just wanting to break the law to kill wolves. It makes us as hunters look bad. When they issue wolf tags then you bet I will be killing one because I will have a tag in my hand that says I can


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## weatherby25

> There is a thread on this very forum that shows a mature bull elk with nothing more than a small part of ONE hindquarter eaten by WOLVES. Is that not enough evidence for you?


I think it is called selective eating. I go to steak houses all the time and not eat all of my meat ether. Sometimes elk just taste bad. :lol:


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## chet

> WOW how do you make it through life Chet?


women and booze, and the occasional moose steak, which happens to taste better than wolf.


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## coyoteslayer

> I have seen 'documented' evidence of wolves, mountain lions, bears, killing for 'pleasure'. I have seen first hand such acts by mountain lions on sheep. *There is a thread on this very forum that shows a mature bull elk with nothing more than a small part of ONE hindquarter eaten by WOLVES. Is that not enough evidence for you? *




I was trying to find that picture. Ask any sheep farmer about what coyotes do. When a mother coyote is training her pups they kill numerous sheep because its in their nature. Domiscated dogs will do the same thing. A neighbor had three calves killed by the neighbors dogs.

Wolves also do the very same thing. When the snow is deep its makes the wolves job a lot easier because they run the elk through the deep snow until one gets really tired.


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## fixed blade XC-3

well look at the bright side. We'll have less coyotes. :roll: Do some of you really believe that wolves can't take down bull elk? :shock:


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## coyoteslayer

> women and booze, and the occasional moose steak, which happens to taste better than wolf.


thats awesome!!

Im sure the wolves have an occasional moose steak also.


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## proutdoors

weatherby25 said:


> I think it is called selective eating. I go to steak houses all the time and not eat all of my meat ether. Sometimes elk just taste bad. :lol:


Bite you tongue. The only elk that tastes 'bad' is elk meat that has been mistreated before being consumed! :mrgreen:


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## fixed blade XC-3

here's just two wolves and a cow elk. Imagine what 5 wolves could do! :shock:


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## fixed blade XC-3

Here, now you don't have to imagine.
It's a good thing humans are bigger that bison! :shock: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT_3QiWQ ... re=related


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## Huge29

*Wolves confirmed in Utah*

I have attempted to educate myself by reading several articles, here is the state of the wolf from 2004. This is done by the non-profit defenders, my favorite part is how every wolf is like smiling  in the pictures, they are so nice, what are you guys worried about? My 2nd favorite part is


> As wolves play a vital role in the native ecosystems across the west, biological needs should outweigh anti-wolf politics
> in the decision to restore the species.


The most important fact that this statement reveals is the dirty little secredt of all of our ancestors in that they use to hunt a lot of big deer and elk, apparently it was all lies as the wolves play a vital role and you are simply using politics......WTF, that is a good debating technique, accuse your opponent of using the very dirty tricks that you yourseld are using. All this time I thought our ecosystem was doing very well, but apparently there were way too many herbivores are out there, so we should be thankful that the wolves are here to save the **** day. Obviously this article is a little outdated, but I like the context in that they were just trying to get to objective, and now that we are way above that, their tune has changed... *\-\* 
BTW you can now adopt a wolf of your own so as to save them from "senseless slaughter" and all this time I thought we were talking about elk and sheep and cows and bison being slaughtered senselessly adoption program

Here is the latest alert for action as the "Bush Administration" has decided to delist, I love how these folks try to use the association with Bush to further spread the hate as if he himself signed the delisting, does he have anything to do with USF&W? alert BTW who knows what is best for those of us in UT, ID, MT and WY than some **** beuracrats being paid by a non-profit organization in DC? Incredible *\-\* *\-\* *\-\* *\-\* *\-\* *\-\* *\-\* *\-\* *\-\*


----------



## idiot with a bow

fixed blade said:


> here's just two wolves and a cow elk. Imagine what 5 wolves could do! :shock:


I didn't see any reason for me to participate in this discussion, it is a dead horse and I think the answer is clear enough that it doesn't need to be debated. I was fine just reading along. Until.................................... fixed blade, who apparently doesn't like me anymore  , found this gem of a video that for some reason is scored with a nicklesuck cover.

Am I the only one who will have a tough time sleeping tonight knowing that there exists a person who, when posting a video of wolves killing an elk on youtube, thought it appropriate to set it to "look at this photograph, every time I do it makes me laugh"? And why the cover? The song didn't suck enough on its own? I feel like I am taking crazy pills!!!!!!!!!!!!

May god have mercy on his soul.


----------



## coyoteslayer

> Am I the only one who will have a tough time sleeping tonight knowing that there exists a person who, when posting a video of wolves killing an elk on youtube, thought it appropriate to set it to "look at this photograph, every time I do it makes me laugh"? And why the cover? The song didn't suck enough on its own? I feel like I am taking crazy pills!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> May god have mercy on his soul.


I hope you were being sarcastic because if not then you definately need talk to someone.  :lol:


----------



## idiot with a bow

Why would you think I was being sarcastic? This is a serious problem, people using music that is an ill fit for the video it accompanies. Tell me why this would require me to talk to someone. The fact that it doesn't worry you, quite frankly, worries me! Think about it.


----------



## coyoteslayer

> Why would you think I was being sarcastic? This is a serious problem, people using music that is an ill fit for the video it accompanies. Tell me why this would require me to talk to someone. The fact that it doesn't worry you, quite frankly, worries me! Think about it.


 :lol: :lol: _(O)_


----------



## wyoming2utah

EPEK said:


> Wolves have been delisted inside the I15 I80 cooridor, so it would not be poaching, theys the same as wiley coyote.


Actually, this statement is false...although delisted, wolves cannot be shot like coyotes. According to the Wolf Management Plan: "...when delisted by the U.S. fish and Wildlife Service, wolves in Utah will have the same legal management status and be subjected to the same UDWR predator managment policies as the black bear and cougar. The UDWR will have the responsibility to recommend and/or implement actions that are necesssary to manage wolves, including a full range of conservation and control actions, ..."

Also, "The goal of this plan is to manage, study, and conserve wolves moving into Utah while avoiding conflicts with the wildlife management objectives of the Ute Indian Tribe; preventing livestock depradation; and protecting the investment made in wildlife in Utah.

Under this plan, wolves will be allowed to disperse into Utah, and be conseved, except when or where:
1) Wolves conflict with the wildlife management objectives of the Ute Indian tribe;
2) Wolves cause unacceptable livestock depradation; or
3) Wolves contribute to wildlife populations not meeting management objectives as defined by the Utah Wildlife Board's Predator Managmement Policy.

Livestock owners will be fully compensated for losses of livestock to wolves.

Under this plan, six strategies are proposed:
1) Develop and implement outreach programs.
2) Manage wolf/human interactions to benefit both humans and wolves.
3) Develop and implement wolf monitoring and research programs.
4) Manage wolf/wildlife interactions to meet the objectives of this plan.
5) Control livestock depradation and fully compensate livestock owners for losses of livestock to wolves.
6) Provide funding for wolf managment."


----------



## proutdoors

wyoming2utah said:


> "The goal of this plan is to manage, study, and conserve wolves moving into Utah while avoiding conflicts with the wildlife management objectives of the Ute Indian Tribe; preventing livestock depradation; and *protecting the investment made in wildlife in Utah*."


I take this as a 'free pass' to shoot every wolf, since every wolf must eat wildlife to survive, and since I have helped make that investment I should be allowed to shoot every wolf on site in Utah LEGALLY! How am I wrong?


----------



## wyoming2utah

Simple...because it is not up to you to decide what impact the wolves are making. As the plan states, these determinations are made by the Wildlife Board. If Utah is meeting objectives in their deer, elk, and other big game plans, wolves will be allowed to continue eating and killing big game...

As my quote states, wolves will be managed similarly to bears and lions...you just can't go out and shoot these animals either despite their need to eat wildlife to survive.

Also, Pro, you are making the assumption that wolves are not a part of the wildlife investment in Utah. What you also must understand is this: a significant portion of our population in Utah like wolves and want wolves in Utah. The WMP plan clearly states the desire to CONSERVE wolves within Utah unless certain situations arise.


----------



## fixed blade XC-3

idiot with a bow said:


> Am I the only one who will have a tough time sleeping tonight knowing that there exists a person who, when posting a video of wolves killing an elk on youtube, thought it appropriate to set it to "look at this photograph, every time I do it makes me laugh"? And why the cover?


I also thought the music picked for this video was quite retarded.


----------



## proutdoors

wyoming2utah said:


> Simple...because it is not up to you to decide what impact the wolves are making. As the plan states, these determinations are made by the Wildlife Board. If Utah is meeting objectives in their deer, elk, and other big game plans, wolves will be allowed to continue eating and killing big game...
> 
> As my quote states, wolves will be managed similarly to bears and lions...you just can't go out and shoot these animals either despite their need to eat wildlife to survive.
> 
> Also, Pro, you are making the assumption that wolves are not a part of the wildlife investment in Utah. What you also must understand is this: a significant portion of our population in Utah like wolves and want wolves in Utah. The WMP plan clearly states the desire to CONSERVE wolves within Utah unless certain situations arise.


We are UNDER OBJECTIVE for total elk and deer population numbers, so EVERY deer/elk killed by wolves is hurting investments made by many, many sportsmen.

I'll admit I have no intention to kill every wolf on sight, just when it is convenient. :wink: I was trying to point out how poorly written the wolf plan for Utah is. As it is written, it is almost impossible to 'enforce' anything from a legal standpoint.

You said:


> The WMP plan clearly states the desire to CONSERVE wolves within Utah *unless certain situations arise*.


Again, one of the "situations" is met EVERY TIME a wolf kills a deer/elk. Simple indeed. :roll:


----------



## wyoming2utah

proutdoors said:


> We are UNDER OBJECTIVE for total elk and deer population numbers, so EVERY deer/elk killed by wolves is hurting investments made by many, many sportsmen.
> 
> I'll admit I have no intention to kill every wolf on sight, just when it is convenient. :wink: I was trying to point out how poorly written the wolf plan for Utah is. As it is written, it is almost impossible to 'enforce' anything from a legal standpoint.
> 
> You said:
> 
> 
> 
> The WMP plan clearly states the desire to CONSERVE wolves within Utah *unless certain situations arise*.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, one of the "situations" is met EVERY TIME a wolf kills a deer/elk. Simple indeed. :roll:
Click to expand...

1) We are under objective in only some areas...but not because of wolves. The WMP also clearly states that wolves must be determined as a limiting factor!

2) The wolf plan is NOT poorly written...I don't think you have even read it or understand it. Your opinion that it is impossible to enforce is laughable...shoot a wolf, admit shooting the wolf, and try defending yourself on that basis; I dare you!

3) NO, that situation doesn't arise just because a wolf kills a deer or elk...it is the same as when a bear or lion kills a deer or elk. You obviously don't understand much about the compensatory nature of predation. Just because a wolf kills a deer or elk doesn't mean that they are holding a population under objective...that is simply one of the many misnomers that hunters hold about predation.

I think you should do a bit more research on how ecosystems work and what part predation plays...I also suggest reading the WMP which you obviously have not done!


----------



## proutdoors

wyoming2utah said:


> I think you should do a bit more research on how ecosystems work and what part predation plays...I also suggest reading the WMP which you obviously have not done!


The old wyo2ut rears his lovely head with the insults. How are wolves 'helping' the ecosystems in Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana? I HAVE indeed read the WMP, and it is easily 'enforcible' for wanton killing of the lovely beasts, but not for making it legal to lower their numbers. That is why I say it is poorly written, it has the bunny huggers interests at heart, and NOT the wildlife outside of the wolf, and it sure in the hell does NOT have the sportsman's interests or livestock owners interests at heart. Now, comeback with more insults smart guy. :?


----------



## wyoming2utah

Truly, your ignorance shines through...if you had done any kind of research on the wolf reintroduction, you have noticed that riparian areas throughout Montana and Wyoming are returning because of the reduced grazing from elk and deer. As a result, fish populations are doing much better because of the habitat improvements...

...but, that is beside the point. Utah's Wolf Management Plan is very good because it allows for wolves to be managed according to strict guidelines. Had you read it, you would have seen that it is very specific in how it proposes to manage wolf numbers when they are reducing elk and deer populations. In fact, it specifically outlines: "There is overall agreement amongst bioloists in Utah and in the northern Rockies that, if necessary, wolf populations can be controlled with available techniques. It is not likely that the UDWR will ever have the level of information necessary to definitively determine the effects wolves are having on big game. Just as with cougars and bears, professional judgement will be important in considering management options.

Wolves will be controlled or populations reduced when they cause unacceptable impacts to big game. At the UDWR Director's discretion, an emergency management action may be implemented for wolves preying on populations of wildlife that are being reestablished, and/or are at low levels. Such an action might include non-lethal control, such as relocation, or lethal control actions."

Also, any wolves that are found responsible for killing livestock may be killed...and any rancher who loses money lost through predation by wolves will be compensated.

Personally, I find on this uproar over wolves to be very dumb...I believe the WMP has both sportsmen's and rancher's interest at heart despite what you say...and, isn't this issue like any hunting issue? Isn't it about balance? Shouldn't we be balancing the desires of those who want wolves in Utah with those who do not?


----------



## proutdoors

This will be my last response to you on this topic since you feel the need to be an ASS!

You talk about my ignorance, yet if you truly believe the numbers are 'normal' for elk and wolves in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming, then you must need help tying your shoes in the morning.



> Had you read it, you would have seen that it is very specific in how it proposes to manage wolf numbers when they are reducing elk and deer populations. In fact, it specifically outlines: "There is overall agreement amongst bioloists in Utah and in the northern Rockies that, *if necessary*, wolf populations can be controlled with available techniques. It is not likely that the UDWR will ever have the level of information necessary to definitively determine the effects wolves are having on big game. Just as with cougars and bears, professional judgement will be important in considering management options.


Do you really believe the greens will EVER deem it "necessary"? I sure don't, and there are many greens in employment at the DWR.



> Wolves will be controlled or populations reduced when they cause *unacceptable impacts to big game*. At the UDWR Director's discretion, an emergency management action may be implemented for wolves preying on populations of wildlife that are being reestablished, and/or are at low levels. Such an action might include non-lethal control, such as relocation, or lethal control actions."


Unacceptable to whom? That is the key question. Unacceptable to me and fellow sportsmen, or unacceptable to the wolf lovers? And who will be footing the bulk of the tab? Hint, not the greens. What about all the lawsuits the greens WILL fill to 'save' each and every wolf?



> Also, any wolves that are found responsible for killing livestock may be killed...and any rancher who loses money lost through predation by wolves will be compensated.


Go ask the livestock owners in the 'wolf states' how easy and quickly it is to get "compensated". You make it sound like a simple process, which is completely FALSE!



> Personally, I find on this uproar over wolves to be very dumb...I believe the WMP has both sportsmen's and rancher's interest at heart despite what you say...and, isn't this issue like any hunting issue? Isn't it about balance? Shouldn't we be balancing the desires of those who want wolves in Utah with those who do not?


Personally, I find having your head buried to be very dumb........I believe the WMP will prove to be as ineffective as the ones in place in the current states with wolves, and most certainly does NOT have sportsmen and ranchers interest at heart. How the hell does wolves help ranchers? You say balance, what 'balance' is there in Gardiner Montana? The NEGATIVE effects on the economy up there is immense. So is the *LOST OPPORTUNITIES *to hunt thanks to the introduction of wolves, her I thought you were all about maintaining/increasing hunting opportunities. Guess I was wrong. :? You say we "should balance the desires of those who want wolves in Utah and those who do not", do you feel the same way with those who want to drill for oil/gas on every ridge, those who believe ATV's should be allowed on ALL public land w/o restrictions? If someones 'desires' affect others, who trumps who? Talk about ignorance, you must be very blissful.


----------



## chet

crown and coke anyone?


----------



## fixed blade XC-3

yes but make it a jim beam.


----------



## wyoming2utah

Pro, a couple of big things you are missing: 1) wolves were just delisted...the impacts of this move will be seen in the near future and the management implications are huge...especially, since some states are having organized wolf hunts 2) much if not most of the funds used to compensate ranchers comes from a pro-wolf organization called Defenders of Wildlife. In fact, "From 1987-2004 there have been 1,600 reported, confirmed wolf depredations on livestock (429 cattle, 1,074 sheep) and other animals (72 dogs, 25 other), which have resulted in 117 wolf translocations and 292 lethal wolf removals (Table 2.3) (USFWS et al. 2004). From 1987-2004, Defenders of Wildlife has paid $475,771 in 373 separate reimbursements to ranchers for livestock losses caused by wolves (Defenders of Wildlife 2004) (Appendix 3). However, the Defenders’ compensation program is not universally accepted and some livestock producers have opted not to participate..." 3) I don't believe the numbers are "truly normal"...I have NOT said that and don't know where you get that from...in fact, I am happy that organized wolf hunts will be held to lower their numbers. 4) Do you really believe that the "greens" as you call them have more power when it comes to tag numbers and hunting laws in Utah and more sway when it comes to the Wildlife Board than do ranchers or sportsmen? If you do, you are truly ignorant! If not, you must hold a much smaller understanding of wildlife setting policy in Utah than what I thought...5) compenastion policy should NOT be a simple process; otherwise, we would be throwing money to ranchers who simply claim to have losses without proof...6) your last comments about oil drilling, atv use, and the "affects" of people's desires show you have no desire for balance or no consideration when it comes to the wishes of others. I DO believe we should have some balance in all of these situations; obviously, you believe only your opinion on these controversial topics should matter....


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

fixed blade said:


> yes but make it a jim beam.


Agreed, Uncle Jim be better.


----------



## GaryFish

Couple things -

*Wolves impacts on riparian *- True that in Yellowstone National Park, since the reintroduction of wolves in 1995, riparian areas have changed drastically, as bison and elk no longer wallow in the streams with no fear of predator. Willows have since grown up around the stream, water quality has improved, and a myriad of other positive benefits. But this is Yellowstone where there is no hunting, or in other words, no other predators. Applying this to environments where there are other predators (hunters) does not hold sway. The same impacts to riparian zones are not being seen in the Salmon River drainages of Central Idaho by any stretch. Remember too that following the '88 fire in Yellowstone, the bison and elk used the land VERY differently as grasses recovered, cover changed, and forests grew up through the dead and down burned logs. Many other variables were at play so application to a place like the Uintas is not only wrong, but irresponsible.

*Greenie impacts on management levels* - The greenies have no voice with the Wildlife Board. They typically don't do their battles there. The greenies do their battles in court, with lawsuits and attorneys, where they nail well meaning biologists to the wall because they forgot to dot an I or cross a T in their management plan.

*Lastly - anthropomorphization of wolves *- Wolves are amazing creatures by any stretch. They are the envy of every hunter. They are highly effective and effecient at survival - which entails hunting. Their group dynamic is incredibly fascinating to anyone who loves the outdoors. They kill for survival. They kill for food. And they kill for fun. Maybe they are like people I guess. But going into any kind of introduction - be it through migration or human induced - know that they will have significant impacts to wildlife and livestock populations. They cannot be trained not to kill and eat livestock. And they do not just kill the old or sick wildlife. There will be impacts.


----------



## bwhntr

wyoming2utah said:


> ... I DO believe we should have some balance in all of these situations; obviously, you believe only your opinion on these controversial topics should matter....


Hmmm that's funny...are you Pot or Kettle?


----------



## proutdoors

GaryFish said:


> Couple things -
> 
> *Wolves impacts on riparian *- True that in Yellowstone National Park, since the reintroduction of wolves in 1995, riparian areas have changed drastically, as bison and elk no longer wallow in the streams with no fear of predator. Willows have since grown up around the stream, water quality has improved, and a myriad of other positive benefits. But this is Yellowstone where there is no hunting, or in other words, no other predators. Applying this to environments where there are other predators (hunters) does not hold sway. The same impacts to riparian zones are not being seen in the Salmon River drainages of Central Idaho by any stretch. Remember too that following the '88 fire in Yellowstone, the bison and elk used the land VERY differently as grasses recovered, cover changed, and forests grew up through the dead and down burned logs. Many other variables were at play so application to a place like the Uintas is not only wrong, but irresponsible.
> 
> *Greenie impacts on management levels* - The greenies have no voice with the Wildlife Board. They typically don't do their battles there. The greenies do their battles in court, with lawsuits and attorneys, where they nail well meaning biologists to the wall because they forgot to dot an I or cross a T in their management plan.
> 
> *Lastly - anthropomorphization of wolves *- Wolves are amazing creatures by any stretch. They are the envy of every hunter. They are highly effective and effecient at survival - which entails hunting. Their group dynamic is incredibly fascinating to anyone who loves the outdoors. They kill for survival. They kill for food. *And they kill for fun*. Maybe they are like people I guess. But going into any kind of introduction - be it through migration or human induced - know that they will have significant impacts to wildlife and livestock populations. They cannot be trained not to kill and eat livestock. And they do not just kill the old or sick wildlife. There will be impacts.


Well stated! Especially the "Greenie impacts on management levels". Anyone who is dumb enough to not see/realize how the greens operate should not be calling anyone else ignorant. Nor should anyone who believes the greens are interested in 'balance'. Shane, I would say wyo2ut is both the pot AND the kettle. :twisted:


----------



## Huge29

proutdoors said:


> Well stated! Especially the "Greenie impacts on management levels". Anyone who is dumb enough to not see/realize how the greens operate should not be calling anyone else ignorant. Nor should anyone who believes the greens are interested in 'balance'. Shane, I would say wyo2ut is both the pot AND the kettle. :twisted:


Hey you said that the previous post was your last post, that will knock you way back in the standings for the most posts... :lol:


----------



## proutdoors

Huge29 said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well stated! Especially the "Greenie impacts on management levels". Anyone who is dumb enough to not see/realize how the greens operate should not be calling anyone else ignorant. Nor should anyone who believes the greens are interested in 'balance'. Shane, I would say wyo2ut is both the pot AND the kettle. :twisted:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey you said that the previous post was your last post, that will knock you way back in the standings for the most posts... :lol:
Click to expand...

Go back and what I wrote again. I said,


> This will be my* last response to you* on this topic since you feel the need to be an ASS!


My last post was in respone to Gary, and this one is in response to you. :wink: 8)


----------



## Huge29

proutdoors said:


> My last post was in respone to Gary, and this one is in response to you. :wink: 8)
Click to expand...

You have crossed the line one time too many, your tally is now down to 2,717, no more cheating, with posts like this (dumb ones like fixed's) I will catch up in no time. :wink: :lol: Do you realize that you average like 15 posts/day _(O)_ impressive! Hopefully this puts you in a better mood, you sound a little ornery today :wink:


----------



## fixed blade XC-3

kick his ass pro! :mrgreen:


----------



## CUT-EM

+1 for PRO


----------



## soules2007

I learn so much on this forum! First the delisting has already taken place?! I was told the 28th was the magic day, and that the greenies had a lot of challenges still outstanding trying to stop the delisting. I thought that predation was the killing by animals for cumsumption, This would only apply to wolves in a very small way, Witnessed and proven the wolves that have been reintroduced have been killing with out consuming. (yes they do eat some of what they kill). I have spoken to a forest ranger(loon creek ranger station), biologist who happened to in challis when i was their, and a couple of ifg officers, all of who shall remain namless, said the reintroduction of the wolf was a complete mess. We talk about if the wolf starts to effect wildlife in a certain we will take steps to decrease the pop of wolves causing the problems. In idaho the LOLO unit was hit so hard and fast they had no idea of the damage done until it was to late. The IGF has listed this unit specifically as a wolf damaged unit. (paraphrased) Utah will have no idea what damage the wolves are doing to wild life until after the damage is done. We read about poaching storys on this forum all the time the damage poachers do is microscopic compared to what a dedicated pack of killing machines can do. People can love wolves all they want, but until you are in one of the infected areas trying to make a living ranching,guiding/outfitting or a for food hunter dealing with the problems first hand, or just the people that are part of the community that does business with these people, well plans on paper just dont seem to get the job done as well as a high powered rifle. And wolf lovers in every city Be dammed. This of course is just some of the chit chat i have witnessed from th real wolf experts.


----------



## Huge29

fixed blade said:


> kick his ass pro! :mrgreen:


In honor of your favorite movie, shouldn't it be "kick his ass seabass!"? You guys know that I am just pulling your leg!! :lol: It was just getting a little tense so I was just trying to lighten the mood... All that talk about pots and kettles made me hungry so I was out eating for the last several hours.

Back to the topic, woofs are kind of cool, but not in my backyard...or where I hunt or ...


----------



## proutdoors

Huge29 said:


> fixed blade said:
> 
> 
> 
> kick his ass pro! :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> In honor of your favorite movie, shouldn't it be "kick his ass seabass!"? You guys know that I am just pulling your leg!! :lol: It was just getting a little tense so I was just trying to lighten the mood... All that talk about pots and kettles made me hungry so I was out eating for the last several hours.
> 
> Back to the topic, woofs are kind of cool, but not in my backyard...or where I hunt or ...
Click to expand...

If you were a utefan I would...... :mrgreen: Now leave me alone, CSI Miami is on!


----------



## fixed blade XC-3

Huge29 said:


> kick his ass seabass!"?


I can't believe I didn't think of that  . Also, yes wolves are cool. But I liked it better when they were only in Canada. :twisted:


----------



## bigbr

Pro, did you ever stop to think that Wyoming’s shoot, shovel and shut up mentality has set sportsmen back five years from having the wolf de-listed from the endangered species list?

Do you not see that had Wyoming’s plan been excepted when Idaho and Montana’s plan were excepted, that we could have been controlling wolves across the west much sooner than we will be in the future.

I think that It will take a big chunk of fun money out of anyone’s piggy bank should they have to pay 150 grand for a wolf that was killed out of spite.

Oh and for the record, it is not Wyoming2utah that has been the instigator on this thread?

I love the way you pull out all the stops with: “well this thread is of no us to me so I will take my ball and go home,” attitude that you portray on most of the opinion post you get involved with. 

There are a great group of informed people on this forum and we all can learn a bunch from reading and posting on here with respect to each other. I do not think that one person on here wants our game to become high priced ALPO......

Respectfully.....Bigbr


----------



## proutdoors

> Pro, did you ever stop to think that Wyoming's shoot, shovel and shut up mentality has set sportsmen back five years from having the wolf de-listed from the endangered species list?


I know nothing about the three S 'mentality' in Wyoming, I do know of New Mexico and Arizona successfully following this line of action for several years. :twisted:



> Do you not see that had Wyoming's plan been excepted when Idaho and Montana's plan were excepted, that we could have been controlling wolves across the west much sooner than we will be in the future.


No, I do NOT see it. The greens will do everything legal and illegal to 'protect' their precious little wolves.



> I think that It will take a big chunk of fun money out of anyone's piggy bank should they have to pay 150 grand for a wolf that was killed out of spite.


I take it you believe killing a wolf is a bigger offense than killing a deer/elk w/o a tag. :roll:



> Oh and for the record, it is not Wyoming2utah that has been the instigator on this thread?


Really, calling people ignorant, liars, and what not isn't considered 'instigating'. Funny stuff right there.



> I love the way you pull out all the stops with: "well this thread is of no us to me so I will take my ball and go home," attitude that you portray on most of the opinion post you get involved with.


I NEVER threatened to take my ball and go home, I just have no desire to have a conversation with someone who thinks so little of me, that's all. Hence the reason I am STILL here. _(O)_



> There are a great group of informed people on this forum and we all can learn a bunch from reading and posting on here with respect to each other. I do not think that one person on here wants our game to become high priced ALPO......


I agree, although the ALPO comment makes no sense. :?



> Respectfully.....Bigbr


Just saying the words at the end does it make it so. :wink:


----------



## chet

ALPO...... you know....... DOG FOOD!!! :twisted:


----------



## wyoming2utah

proutdoors said:


> Pro, did you ever stop to think that Wyoming's shoot, shovel and shut up mentality has set sportsmen back five years from having the wolf de-listed from the endangered species list?
> 
> 
> 
> I know nothing about the three S 'mentality' in Wyoming, I do know of New Mexico and Arizona successfully following this line of action for several years. :twisted:
Click to expand...

Nothing has given the "greenies" more ammunition against hunting than this mentality...sadly, some hunters still think it is smart.



proutdoors said:


> Do you not see that had Wyoming's plan been excepted when Idaho and Montana's plan were excepted, that we could have been controlling wolves across the west much sooner than we will be in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I do NOT see it. The greens will do everything legal and illegal to 'protect' their precious little wolves.
Click to expand...

Had you done any research on the subject you would have seen that both Idaho and Wyoming's slow response to creating good viable wolf management plans have considerably slowed the process of turning wolf managment over to states instead of wolves being managed by the feds. Had this been done sooner, wolves would not have had the time to be near as devastating. Take a look at the lawsuits that have been thrown at endangered cutthroat trout in Utah as an example...have they had any significant impact on fishing?



proutdoors said:


> I think that It will take a big chunk of fun money out of anyone's piggy bank should they have to pay 150 grand for a wolf that was killed out of spite.
> 
> 
> 
> I take it you believe killing a wolf is a bigger offense than killing a deer/elk w/o a tag. :roll:
Click to expand...

I definitely believe killing a wolf is a bigger offense than killing a deer/elk without a tag...we are talking about poaching an endangered animal compared to one that is plentiful.



proutdoors said:


> Oh and for the record, it is not Wyoming2utah that has been the instigator on this thread?
> 
> 
> 
> Really, calling people ignorant, liars, and what not isn't considered 'instigating'. Funny stuff right there.
Click to expand...

Uhhh...I never called you a liar. I called you ignorant...a comment I still stand by. For the record, "ignorant" means: having little knowledge about a subject or uneducated.

Also, you were an "instigator" when you began writing stupid things like your desire to knowingly and intentionally poach wolves...



proutdoors said:


> I just have no desire to have a conversation with someone who thinks so little of me, that's all. Hence the reason I am STILL here. _(O)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think that one person on here wants our game to become high priced ALPO......
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, although the ALPO comment makes no sense. :?
Click to expand...

I think, Pro, that you are like too many people on these kinds of forums....you have a tendency to emotionally respond to a thread without taking the time to actually enlighten and educate yourself on both sides of the issue. To me, that is ignorance. If you don't like me calling it the way I see it, fine. Don't respond to me...but, when it appears obvious that you are making comments and posting opinions based on emotion rather than enlightenment, understanding, and knowledge, I am going call you ignorant.

As for the Alpo comment, I agree wholeheartedly with Bigbr. I don't think anyone that has participated in this thread wants to see our deer and elk turn into high-priced feed for wolves. I know that I am personally not excited about their reemergence in Utah. However, I am consigned to the idea that they are going to be here and that we can manage them smartly so that they don't destroy our elk and deer herds. I am also a firm believer that Utah--unlike Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming in their infancies with the controversy--has taken the right steps to deal with the problem.

And, FWIW, my arrogance stems from the fact that I have spent some time reading both sides of this issue...and, my opinions are based on the information that I have gained from both sides.


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## proutdoors

wyoming2utah said:


> Also, you were an "instigator" when you began writing stupid things like your desire to knowingly and intentionally poach wolves...
> 
> If you don't like me calling it the way I see it, fine. Don't respond to me...but, when it appears obvious that you are making comments and posting opinions based on emotion rather than enlightenment, understanding, and knowledge, I am going call you ignorant.
> 
> And, FWIW, my arrogance stems from the fact that I have spent some time reading both sides of this issue...and, my opinions are based on the information that I have gained from both sides.


OK, now I have lied, I can't let some flat out BS go without comments.

1)I have NEVER advocated nor expressed a "desire to knowingly and intentionally poach wolves", get your facts straight Mr Knowledge and Wisdom. :idea:

2)Your arrogance is mind numbing, you act as if you are the only one that studies and researches topics, so you *ass*ume that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, which makes you both arrogant and ignorant!

3)I doubt it, I believe your arrogance stems from being a pompous windbag! :wink: :mrgreen: Have a good day. 8)


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## wyoming2utah

proutdoors said:


> OK, now I have lied, I can't let some flat out BS go without comments.
> 
> 1)I have NEVER advocated nor expressed a "desire to knowingly and intentionally poach wolves", get your facts straight Mr Knowledge and Wisdom. :idea:


Hmmm...so, what did you mean by this quote:


proutdoors said:


> I take this as a 'free pass' to shoot every wolf, since every wolf must eat wildlife to survive, and since I have helped make that investment I should be allowed to shoot every wolf on site in Utah LEGALLY!


Or, what about this one:


proutdoors said:


> I'll admit I have no intention to kill every wolf on sight, just when it is convenient.


 ?


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## proutdoors

Talk about a twist of what was posted. You put more spin on stuff than the Clinton campaign. Where are the smilies after them? Where are the comments I was responding to? Where is the rest of my post that shows what point I was making? If that is the best you can do, you are much lamer than I thought. :?


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## bowgy

What does poached wolf taste like :?: 

I've had poached fish, poached chicken, poached eggs, but never had poached wolf :wink: 

If someone has tried poached wolf, let us know how it is.


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## wyoming2utah

proutdoors said:


> Talk about a twist of what was posted. You put more spin on stuff than the Clinton campaign. Where are the smilies after them? Where are the comments I was responding to? Where is the rest of my post that shows what point I was making? If that is the best you can do, you are much lamer than I thought. :?


Huh? The first quote had no smilies...sorry. The second quote had a wink...which I took to mean that you thought you were legal in killing wolves. The questions and the context of your statements sounded simply like you believed you were justified through Utah's WMP to kill wolves...something which could be no further from the truth. In fact, the context of our discussion led me to dare you to go out and admittedly kill a wolf...at which point you backtracked. Up until that point, however, you maintained a legal right and justification for poaching wolves...

...I twisted nothing but presented it in the same context you meant it.


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## proutdoors

wyoming2utah said:


> I twisted nothing but presented it in the same context you meant it.


How do you know better than I how I meant it? Talk about taking arrogance to a whole new level. :roll: I was responding to how you were claiming it would be simple to manage wolves by following the WMP, my point is it was/is poorly written and can be interpreted many different ways, which has through this thread alone been proven to be a correct conclusion. Stick to presenting your views, and leave me to present mine! _(O)_


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## bowgy

o-|| O|* o-|| :mrgreen:


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## wyoming2utah

proutdoors said:


> : I was responding to how you were claiming it would be simple to manage wolves by following the WMP, my point is it was/is poorly written and


...

...to show that you were right in poaching wolves...you said it not once but twice!


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## bwhntr

Well...This discussion ran off course into a mindnumbing, pointless dribble...Anybody with an education care to lead us back to an educated discussion? BTW, pounding ones OPINION onto all of us poor souls who have to read it does not count as "educated"...

Now, where were we?


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## bowhunter

something about Wolves in Utah.....I think! All I know is I will never get those 15 minutes back from reading the last 20 or so posts! WOW! You guys need to give a rest. I feel like I am watching my two little kids fight over a transformer!


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## Treehugnhuntr

bowhunter said:


> something about Wolves in Utah.....I think! All I know is I will never get those 15 minutes back from reading the last 20 or so posts! WOW! You guys need to give a rest. I feel like I am watching my two little kids fight over a transformer!


Wow! You're a fast reader. I started at 9 am and just now got to your post.


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## proutdoors

Treehugnhuntr said:


> bowhunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> something about Wolves in Utah.....I think! All I know is I will never get those 15 minutes back from reading the last 20 or so posts! WOW! You guys need to give a rest. I feel like I am watching my two little kids fight over a transformer!
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! You're a fast reader. I started at 9 am and just now got to your post.
Click to expand...

You've been hanging around hillbilly too much I believe. :shock:


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## soules2007

just one piece of info just ran across. before reintro, the northern yellowstone elk herd counted just above 22,000 today the herd is now considered critically low at just below 8,000. Have not got a count on the willow and aspen tree populations. :wink:


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## Nibble Nuts

I don't think it is a good idea to introduce werewolfs to Utah.


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## InvaderZim

Nibble Nuts said:


> I don't think it is a good idea to introduce werewolfs to Utah.


Finally something I can agree with! They scare the begezus outa me!

And I aint kiddin...this is one of only a couple true fears of mine. Otherwise I'm pretty much a hardarse. :mrgreen:


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## Loke

What we need to do is train the woofies to only eat the whitetailed deer. Then happiness would be everywhere. *()* -~|- -()/>- -()/- *(())* -*|*- (we need more nanners)


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## Mojo1

Loke said:


> What we need to do is train the woofies to only eat the whitetailed deer. Then happiness would be everywhere. *()* -~|- -()/>- -()/- *(())* -*|*- (we need more nanners)


No, the wolves need to learn to be vegetarians, then no one would have any reason to bother them. :wink:


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## Longgun

_what a dead horse_...

+1...vegan wolf...thats some funny chit! although sounds like there is PLENTY of new aspen to go around :roll:


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## soules2007

friday is the delisting day! less than 24 hours. the greenies are on the phones, applying pressure, can you feel the tension!!


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## Longgun

-oOo- 

.... im moving to wyoming...i hear its nice and quiet up there around the last week of september -)O(-


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## proutdoors

I 'poached' this e-mail from another forum. I believe it gives great insight to the 'mentality' of the wolf lovers.



> Thought everyone might enjoy this response I received from
> heartofthewolf.org after I sent them an e-mail saying I looked forward to legally hunting a wolf. It's a little long, but well worth reading. Honestly, I didn't make any of this up, only altered the off color words so as not to offend anyone...


[blockquote:d3x7ho6z][exclamation:d3x7ho6z][/exclamation:d3x7ho6z]_Because of the language contained in the material that Pro quoted here, the moderators decided to move it and the subsequent posts about it to the Gut Pile forum. - Petersen_[/blockquote:d3x7ho6z]


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## vliberty

I lived up in timber lakes, just east of heber ut, and i had a chat w/ the ranch hand that runs the Cristensen ranch up there. this was five years ago. we got to talkin about him working up on the ranch and neighboring forest lands throuought the years, and i asked him if he had 
had any experiences w/ wolves. I laughed, but then he told me that up just passed the summit of lake creek he had heard some wolves and had seen a big black lone wolf years back as he tended his grazing animals. I also talked to a guy that my friend and i snowmobile with up there and he said that he had seen a wolf and he stood up on his sled to make sure, and he attests to that fact. My Dad also said that he saw one on the side of the road dead on the way back from vernal ut, but my dad has been known to bs a bit. I have a friend that is a biologist for the dwr up in heber and i asked him about wolves in utah. This was 5 years ago too, but he denied that ther were any. Makes you wonder though.


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## Dead Drifter

Locking the wolves out of Utah is just one step closer to the PETA, DWR, and Utah Legislature locking the land up for private interest groups. Right now on the hill is a bill HB187 that wants to lock up our rivers and streams to recreation including fishing. It's just the "new" age mentality. If we allow them to lock up our rivers and streams they will then allow animal lover groups like PETA to eventually gather money and buy up property to keep hunters from entering these areas. It's on it way. Public resourses are slowing being privatised and locked up.

HB187 sets the standard for people to buy up property with public natural resourses such as water, fish, game animals and such and lock you out! Once the word gets out that Utah is willing to sell these properties and allow the owners to lock out the common folks who are used to hunting and fishing on them, you bet they will be gathering up the monies. Hunting and fishing in Utah as you know it is on the way out.


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## Size Matters

There has always been some wolves in utah any way over the years I have seen one here and there even above Bountiful several years back I seen a Timber wolf but hopefully we can keep the population under control. 8)


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