# Just when you think you're an expert reloader.



## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

I've been reloading longer than most of you have been alive. I'm pretty sure I've got it down. Maybe. Lisa and I had a wake-up call yesterday. She was shooting her new Glock 27 I bought her for her birthday and practicing double taps with one of my 1911s. While I was reloading her magazine I heard a loader than normal boom. She turned and looked at me with blood on her face and powder burns on her hands. Holy Fuuu! The magazine was blown out in pieces on the ground and two shells had thier bullets blown back into thier cases from the escaping gasses through the mag well. I cleared our guns and tried to gather our senses. These were my own reloads. I have no idea what I did wrong. Double charge maybe? I haven't had a bad reload for many, many years. I'm a benchrest shooter, a mechanic and a machinist. I deal with thousanths of an inch every day and I let this happen somehow.
I posted this as a reminder to all, double check everything and be careful with your reloading.
[attachment=0:cp1ks2ou]DSC00687.JPG[/attachment:cp1ks2ou]


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## GutPile (Feb 26, 2013)

Wow that's scary! Hopefully your wife is OK.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

She's fine Gutpile, thank you. I was using Hodgen Titegroup and a Hornady TNT reloader. I called both companies to see if either had some insight on what I did wrong. A double charge of 5.5grs of Titegroup would have spilled over and been noticeable. Both companies said it was probably an undercharged load. Hornady walked me through the set-up of my powder throw adjustment and I'm pretty sure I had it wrong.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm glad that your wife is OK. 

Have you pulled any of the bullets out of the other rounds that you had loaded and weighed the powder charge? 

I know that even if I have been reloading for over 40 years now I still find myself checking things twice and even more just to try and avoid problems. I remember the first time that I forgot to put powder in a case and had a stuck bullet to deal with. So far knock on wood that is the worse that has happened to me with thousands or rounds loaded.


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## GutPile (Feb 26, 2013)

I'm glad to hear that.

I do have a question though.



longbow said:


> Both companies said it was probably an undercharged load.


How can that cause an overpressure? I reloaded for a few years now and haven't heard about that happening.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm going to guess that there wasn't enough crimp. This would allow the bullet to seat deeper into the case under recoil, reducing the case capacity, and causing the pressure to spike. The 40 S&W operates at high pressure, what would be considered +P in the 45 ACP. The remaining rounds in the magazine having their bullets shoved back into their cases is why I am thinking this is the culprit. Did Hodgdon or Hornady ask about crimp?


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

The empty space in the case has a lot to do with the pressures. More so with rifle cases than pistols. Maybe DallenC or Frisco Pete can shed some light on this.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Loke said:


> I'm going to guess that there wasn't enough crimp. This would allow the bullet to seat deeper into the case under recoil, reducing the case capacity, and causing the pressure to spike. The 40 S&W operates at high pressure, what would be considered +P in the 45 ACP. The remaining rounds in the magazine having their bullets shoved back into their cases is why I am thinking this is the culprit. Did Hodgdon or Hornady ask about crimp?


No they didn't ask about the crimp. I'm thinking the recoil would pull the bullet out of the case further rather than seat it in more. Not sure. Either way, it would cause higher pressures. I'm pretty sure it had something to do with my reloading prossess.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

As the gun recoils to the rear, the rounds in the magazine remain stationary until they contact the front of the magazine. Then the bullet is pushed into the case. Case length could be an issue, causing inconsistent crimps on each round. The more I learn about reloading, the more I realize I don't know. Especially with the auto loading pistol cartridges. Revolvers and rifles are simple by comparison.
The round on the far right in the photo doesn't appear to have been crimped. I'm assuming that you are using a taper crimp die.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Loke said:


> I'm going to guess that there wasn't enough crimp. This would allow the bullet to seat deeper into the case under recoil, reducing the case capacity, and causing the pressure to spike. The 40 S&W operates at high pressure, what would be considered +P in the 45 ACP. The remaining rounds in the magazine having their bullets shoved back into their cases is why I am thinking this is the culprit. Did Hodgdon or Hornady ask about crimp?


+1

One habit to get into is to weigh groups of completed cartridges (4 or 5) at a time on a digital scale. They should be within a few grains of each other... any more or less, you can suspect over / under charged rounds. Rifle cartridges can be weighed in larger groups (10 or so) as we are working with larger amounts of powder. This of course, assumes the reloader is properly weighing and grouping brass and bullets by weight. Its a good habit I got into a while back to rough check things.

-DallanC


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

GutPile said:


> I'm glad to hear that.
> 
> I do have a question though.
> 
> ...


Titegroup burns like a banshee. In an under-charged load, you can get the powder spread out across the bottom of the case, and igniting all at once (rather than progressively). When you combine the fast burn rate and 'flash' ignition, it can cause significant overpressure.

However...
I think this case may have been a situation of significant bullet set-back. .40 S&W does not respond well to set-back.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

First off, I am glad your wife wasnt severely hurt.

Thank you for sharing your experience and pictures. That is a real wakeup call for all of us. And i hope we keep in mind that we always need to be careful


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Squigie said:


> GutPile said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad to hear that.
> ...


Squigie, your right about Titegroup. It's a flake powder and is notorious for being a fast powder. As far as the bullet set-back goes I think I would have noticed it when I loaded her mag. I think. I've shot Nitro mags while in Africa and Spain and some of the shells that were left in my mag for extented shots had the bullets pulled "out" a bit from the recoil. That's why I'm thinking it's just the opposite of a compressed bullet. I'll check my crimp.


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

WOW; Glad she's ok; I've heard that light charges with fast burning powder can do this but I always figured it was more legend than fact. Looks like I was wrong. Thanks for the heads up.
What struck her in the face?


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

I would agree with some of the above posts by everyone that it could either be the bullet seated too deeply in the case - or shoved in too deep on chambering. They say it takes very little bullet setback to raise pressure dramatically.

OR a light load of a fast burning powder like Titegroup. Lots of air space etc can make powder position a factor and burn and pressures erratic. I would easily bet more handguns are blown up by light loads than heavy ones. The .40 is best with medium burning rate powders in the Unique, Universal, AA#5, Power Pistol etc.
Hornady doesn't list Titegroup in their newest manual 40 section. Speer recommends medium burners and says accuracy is better with them - indicative of better/uniform internal ignition.

Powders like Titegroup and Bullseye have an accuracy rep (though not in the .40) and you get more loadings out of a pound of them (cheaper) so reloaders love them. But they should be avoided in the .40 and used with care in some other rounds. In cases like yours the pressure curve is very steep - and that is less than optimum when it comes to being forgiving.

Of course a combination of both is possible.

Of course lead bullets should be avoided in Glocks with their polygonal rifled barrels. Lead build-up is a cause of Kabooms in them. 
In addition the Glock .40 barrels aren't fully supported (_though new ones are much better than early ones_) leaving a weaker spot for an over pressure round to let go. Basically they have less margin for error than others.

We will probably never really know for sure, but these are some thoughts anyway.


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## Kdub (Sep 6, 2010)

It may not be an under/over charge at all. From what I've researched most .40 brass comes from Glock guns. Glocks of course with their "unsupported" chambers but you do get a noticeable bulge by the base of the case. Even if you use some kind of a bulge buster like Lee makes, I hear that is still a weak point on the case. Over time this weak point can let go and cause complete case separation, even under normal loads. The .40 is a high pressure load. That case looks like it separated right where the infamous bulge occurs.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Kdub said:


> It may not be an under/over charge at all. From what I've researched most .40 brass comes from Glock guns. Glocks of course with their "unsupported" chambers but you do get a noticeable bulge by the base of the case. Even if you use some kind of a bulge buster like Lee makes, I hear that is still a weak point on the case. Over time this weak point can let go and cause complete case separation, even under normal loads. The .40 is a high pressure load. That case looks like it separated right where the infamous bulge occurs.


I may have not made myself clear. I was loading her Glock while she was shooting my 1911. But you're right Kdub. Glocks have a long ramp and have an unsupported chamber.


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## Kdub (Sep 6, 2010)

Oh I must have missed that part! Either way im no expert on the topic. Glad no body was hurt. What happened to the gun?


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

> I may have not made myself clear. I was loading her Glock while she was shooting my 1911. But you're right Kdub. Glocks have a long ramp and have an unsupported chamber.


.

I think a lot of the discussion was based on thinking the problem was .40 cal. It does remind us all to be very careful reloading. I have a tv set up near my bench in my "man cave" and sometimes I have to remind myself it's probably best to leave it off while I am reloading.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

longbow i have the hornady LNL reloader is that what you have? you say a hornady TNT reloader. anyways I use a powder check die with mine, and use the lee FCD on all my pistol loads that use a taper crimp.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Kdub said:


> Oh I must have missed that part! Either way im no expert on the topic. Glad no body was hurt. What happened to the gun?


Nothing happened to the gun. Everything about the gun checks out. It's a Rock Island 1911 that I bought on a whim.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Mavis13 said:


> WOW; Glad she's ok; I've heard that light charges with fast burning powder can do this but I always figured it was more legend than fact. Looks like I was wrong. Thanks for the heads up.
> What struck her in the face?


I'm not sure what struck her in the face. I think maybe powder, a piece of brass? I don't know. It sure scared the hell out of me when I first saw her though.


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

I've never crimped 40, 9, or 45........ I was taught that crimping the auto pistol cartridges causes headspace problems and can create dangerous pressures. They headspace off of the case mouth. Tens of thousands of rounds have been fired from my hand and I've never had a problem.
.
also, there was obviously great pressures inside the gun. The same pressure that pushed out the magazine also pushed in them two bullets.
.
The bullets appear to be of the cast/plated variety..... It's quited possible that they are slightly undersize. feed ramp seats the bullet deeper, titegroup goes boom.... just another thought.
.
Very glad it turned out as well as it did!!!!


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

longbow said:


> Mavis13 said:
> 
> 
> > WOW; Glad she's ok; I've heard that light charges with fast burning powder can do this but I always figured it was more legend than fact. Looks like I was wrong. Thanks for the heads up.
> ...


 :shock: 
I can only imagine; sure glad it worked out ok.


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## Afishnado (Sep 18, 2007)

Automatic handgun loads need a firm crimp for accuracy, dependable functioning, and uniform velocity. On the .40S&W mine measure out at .420 with the micrometer. 
I shoot somewhere around 2000+ .40 and 9mm rounds each month and I use Titegroup exclusively with no problems. I obviously use a high volume press (I use dillon) and what I did was put a very brite LED light that shines directly into the case under the powder drop. I visually look at EVERY round after the powder has dropped.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Afishnado said:


> Automatic handgun loads need a firm crimp for accuracy, dependable functioning, and uniform velocity. On the .40S&W mine measure out at .420 with the micrometer.
> I shoot somewhere around 2000+ .40 and 9mm rounds each month and I use Titegroup exclusively with no problems. I obviously use a high volume press (I use dillon) and what I did was put a very brite LED light that shines directly into the case under the powder drop. I visually look at EVERY round after the powder has dropped.


An LED light is a great idea. I'm going to try that.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Cartridges that headspace on the case mouth should be crimped with a taper crimp die. This will not affect the headspace the way a roll crimp will, but will still hold the bullet in its proper place during recoil and chambering.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

You certainly had a couple of us confused with the .40 Glock in the story!

1911 .45 Auto = Titegroup should be just fine - but what bullet weight are you using? 5.5 grains is tops in the 185-200 range here according to Hodgdon.
Its a long-shot random chance, but are the bullets the advertised weight?

It is so hard to reconstruct an incident like this one here. I can understand why Hornady and Hodgdon felt that it was a light or squib load. Usually most handguns are blown up by such when a bullet sticks in the barrel normally, although I've seen where there have been issues with powder position in the case with small charges. You didn't mention a stuck bullet in the barrel, but?

I would certainly double-check your scale zero and settings - and what the Hornady measure drops in use with a decent sampling of cases just to make sure things are consistent over a range of drops/cases.
My Dillon is certainly consistent enough with the usual pistol powder types - but operator failure to set correctly or make sure the metered charge is consistent for multiple rounds is always a window for error. As well as zeroing and checking the scale. This may include checking an electronic scale against a beam scale.

Of course when using a progressive press if there is ANY interruption or problem that requires a stop, or any change in rhythm (_including adding primers, powder, emptying the load box_), it certainly pays to check and see if all the cases are in the right station with the last process complete and are ready for the next step. I think this is how you could double-charge a case or omit the charge. This trumps speed or rpm on a progressive. I may be just preaching to the choir here, but it is important to be reminded of as I have nearly been a victim of it myself. Its just brain-fart stuff we can fall prey to.

Just a minor amount of bullet setback or deeper seating than the loads tested in the book(s) can make pressure skyrocket. Double check COAL against multiple sources. This can vary with different type of bullets. Rifle loading doesn't really teach you how critical this is because minor depth changes has a much lesser effect.

I am not familiar with using the Lee FCD on handgun rounds, just .223, so I can't comment on whether you have enough crimp. I use a taper crimp die for my autopistol rounds - and they SHOULD be crimped because bullet setback on chambering could be the cause of pressure excursions. I personally use a Dillon taper crimp. 
_Afishnado_ has some excellent advice on measuring crimp (blade micrometer?) but failed to supply .45 Auto crimps specs he uses...

BTW: while the Glock often gets a bit of a bad rap for not having a fully-supported barrel (in order to have flawless feeding) 1911 .45s usually don't have fully-supported barrels either. However the .45 ACP runs at a lot less pressure than the hot .40 so there are fewer incidents - but if an overpressure event occurs, it is no different than the maligned Glock.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Frisco Pete said:


> You certainly had a couple of us confused with the .40 Glock in the story! Sorry, I was loading her Glock 40 while she was shooting my 1911.
> 
> 1911 .45 Auto = Titegroup should be just fine - but what bullet weight are you using? 5.5 grains is tops in the 185-200 range here according to Hodgdon. Berry's 185gr.
> Its a long-shot random chance, but are the bullets the advertised weight? I just wieght five at random, 185, 185, 185.2, 185.2 and 185.3
> ...


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## Nalgi (Apr 16, 2010)

Sabotage!

Those darn liberals on the hill! :evil:


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