# Replacement to Varget found!!



## Bo0YaA

Ok so all it took was a mention to my father in law about how hard a time Ive been having finding Varget for him to say " IMR 4064 is about as close to Varget as you can get without actually being Varget" So, excitably I started thumbing through my reloading manuals. Holy cow!! darn near exact performance and pressures per grain weight. Went out this past weekend with some loads in my 308, 260, 270 and 375 Ruger and they performed just like they do with Varget. In fact some even performed better! Ive seen tons of 4064 on the shelves so to those guys looking for a replacement, I would suggest you buy a lb or two and try it on your loads. 

Keep me posted on your results, I'm curious if everybody else will get as good a result as I did.


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## Gee LeDouche

Good to know. Thanks! I have a couple kegs of Varget sitting around that I bought years ago that I never got around to using. Ive heard nothing but good stuff about it though.


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## Dodger

You're sitting on a gold mine there Gee!


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## Stickboy

4064 is a good powder. The only thing that comes to mind is that it is a bit more temperature sensitive. Back when I did some long range work, the fellas would complain about point of impact changes when we had a 15-20 temp swing. Still a great powder, especially since Varget is so hard to find.


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## Huge29

IMR4064 is the one powder that I see most commonly as available. Good to hear!


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## fishreaper

My .243 loves imr 4064. I'm glad to see it getting some publicity. It doesn't appear in my manual to be for the hottest rounds, but it must be doing something right.


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## Bo0YaA

Well from what I have found its either + or - 1-1.5 grains of Varget and produces speeds in most cases under 100fps difference. Pretty darn close if ya ask me. Oh and Huge if ya need some, the Wally world in Centerville has a few bottles in stock as of Saturday.


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## Huge29

Bo0YaA said:


> Well from what I have found its either + or - 1-1.5 grains of Varget and produces speeds in most cases under 100fps difference. Pretty darn close if ya ask me. Oh and Huge if ya need some, the Wally world in Centerville has a few bottles in stock as of Saturday.


That is where I have seen it just about every trip in there, Layton too. Now if they would ever get any of the Alliant Reloader stuff...


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## Afishnado

Huge29 said:


> That is where I have seen it just about every trip in there, Layton too. Now if they would ever get any of the Alliant Reloader stuff...


Which Alliant RL are you looking for?


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## MKP

I've been using 4064 for .223, .243, 270, and .35 Whelen for a while now. The .270 prefers IMR4831 of course, but otherwise its a great powder. My only problem I have with it is it doesn't seem to like lighter bullet weights in .223, or least I haven't been able to find any recipes. I've got some 40 grain Nosler Varmageddon's I'd like to try but can't find Varget for them.


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## toasty

Bo0YaA said:


> So, excitably I started thumbing through my reloading manuals. Holy cow!! darn near exact performance and pressures per grain weight. Went out this past weekend with some loads in my 308, 260, 270 and 375 Ruger and they performed just like they do with Varget. In fact some even performed better!


So I've done a lot of research on the topic of powders and talked to a couple of engineers at alliant and hodgdon over the years and discovered something that no one in the industry wants to get out. These powder are all made in the same plant on the same lines. Varget and 4064 are the exact same formulation, made at the same time, on the same line. They are supposed to cut and coat Varget a little differently after manufacture, but I've got some data now that says they don't even do that.

I asked the question to a production engineer (you won't get the same response from anyone in sales), "so hodgdon extreme powders are identical in every way to their imr counterparts?" and received the answer of "I can't tell you they are the same, but load some up and see what you think."


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## Frisco Pete

If only IMR 4064 logs metered as well as Varget and was as temperature insensitive. :sad:
Another powder that is extremely close to a Varget is RL-15. It meters even better and is temperature insensitive. Alas, it too is hard to find.
With heavy match bullets in my .223 I can use either basically interchangeably.

Fortunately I already have enough of all three.


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## Bo0YaA

When you say temperature sensitive do you mean big swings in pressure? Are you saying that a load that shoots 1/2" groups in 32 degree weather is going to open up and if so by how much? I found a sweet load for my .260 using 39 gr and a 120gr Nosler BT. Its shooting right at 1/2 inch 5 shot groups at 100. I hate to think its a cold weather load only.


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## Frisco Pete

Velocity will vary with temperature. A load developed when it's cold will gain velocity when it's warm and vice-versa. Point-of-impact will change because of this. And a load developed when cold may show pressure signs when it's hot. Obviously it will pay check the check 4064 load when it's hot. 

The newer temperature insensitive powders (driven by military needs) don't exhibit large velocity swings from 100 to 0 degrees. 

Hodgdon has been slowly re-formulating their lineup to "Extreme" (their term for temperature insensitive) formulations. 

They aren't the only ones with this type of formulation either. Ram shot and Alliant have some as well. TAC, RL-15, and IMR XBR 8208 to name a couple. For example:

"IMR 8208 XBR totally insensitive to changes in temperature, while yielding max velocities and “tack driving” accuracy."


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## Springville Shooter

toasty said:


> So I've done a lot of research on the topic of powders and talked to a couple of engineers at alliant and hodgdon over the years and discovered something that no one in the industry wants to get out. These powder are all made in the same plant on the same lines. Varget and 4064 are the exact same formulation, made at the same time, on the same line. They are supposed to cut and coat Varget a little differently after manufacture, but I've got some data now that says they don't even do that.
> 
> I asked the question to a production engineer (you won't get the same response from anyone in sales), "so hodgdon extreme powders are identical in every way to their imr counterparts?" and received the answer of "I can't tell you they are the same, but load some up and see what you think."


The coating is where all the difference is made. So when you say it's all the same except the coating that basically means it's way different.------SS


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## toasty

Springville Shooter said:


> The coating is where all the difference is made. So when you say it's all the same except the coating that basically means it's way different.------SS


You guys are being duped, my point was the "Extreme" coating is a marketing ploy to differentiate Hodgdon powders from IMR powders. Do you think it is a coincident that extreme powders launch at the exact time hodgdon bought imr? I can make up a load that is not temperature sensitive with any cartridge depending on bullet weight, load volume, primer, etc... Here is a good article written by a third party that shows extreme powders do in fact have variation due to temperature. I have also included an excerpt in quotes.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/Pressure%20Factors.pdf

"The pressures generated by IMR4350 and H4350 are, for all practical purposes, equally affected by powder temperature in this case, yet Hodgdon advertises that their "Extreme Powders" are not affected by temperature. Indeed, when I load H4350 in my 30-06, and Varget in my 308, I do get loads that are very temperature stable. So what could explain this discrepancy?
It is apparent that there is another factor at work. It is probably case capacity, or something closely related to it. 46 grains of Varget behind a 165 grain bullet gives me excellent temperature stability in my 308. Varget in my 223 is not as temperature stable as the military rounds that are sold over the counter. I did extensive tests on this, but, unfortunately, that was before I learned to control both powder and barrel temperatures. 
Clearly, H4350 is not at all immune to the effects of temperature in the 7.62x54R cartridge.Nor, as we shall see, is Varget. Getting temperature insensitivity requires more than just filling the case with a particular brand."

Hodgdon cherry pics their load data to differentiate products to sell more product and many buy it hook line and sinker. I can show you my data with varget and 4064 in 243 win that shows 4064 less temperature sensitive. If I change the charge by 1 grain I can show you the opposite is true. I'm not saying imr is better that hodgdon, I'm saying they are the same. If you don't believe it, start doing your own temp tests.


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