# If anyone wants to talk about football...



## Dodger

If anyone wants to talk about football rather than just how much Utah stinks, the Thursday odds have the Utes by 9. 

My honest assessment of the game is that both the Utes and the Cougars have done about the same damage to the same teams. I think the cougars rolling on the teams they have rolled the past few weeks isn't really going to tell us whether or not they've improved.

Conversely, I think it has been shown that the Utes rolling on the teams they rolled on showed us than they were not as good as many thought. 

I think the best comparative example is the TCU games for both schools, with one caveat. TCU was up for the Utah game. I think the Utes brought that on themselves with the blackout, hype, etc. but that's beyond the point. 

TCU wanted to pound Utah. TCU only wanted to beat BYU. But, I think TCU exposed weakness in both teams. If BYU plays Utah the way they played TCU, BYU wins. If Utah plays BYU the way they played TCU, BYU wins. If Utah shows up tomorrow, I think Utah wins. 

I see Asiata causing some problems with BYU's defensive line. The BYU D-line has been hurting since Fuga went out in the Nevada game. If Asiata can pound 3-4 yards a down, it's over for the Cougars. 

If the Cougars can throw on Utah's secondary like they have been throwing against other teams lately, I think the offense can put up the points. For me, the game is up to BYU's defensive line. If they can slow down Asiata, the Cougars win 34-31.


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## mikevanwilder

Either way it goes down it will be a great game as the final game between the two while belonging to the same conference. 
My gut says Utah 27 BYU 23.


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## Riverrat77

I think it will come down to Utah's defense. If their line gives Heaps time to throw (gaining confidence along the way) their secondary is going to have a rough day. I think Utah's offense will be just fine.... and it'll wind up giving them a slight edge so they win by seven.


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## stick_man

Interesting. 6-0 BYU at the half. BYU's defense has shown up and is not allowing Wynn hardly anything.


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## huntingbuddy

BYU's defense has been impressive thus far. Utah's offense needs to pick it up and quit sitting on the sidelines.


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## Treehugnhuntr

I've heard it said that Jesus saves. I guess you can add referees to that list.....


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## huntingbuddy

OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO UTAH WINS!!!!!!!!!!! OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO OOO°)OO Awesome block, I was not expecting a block like that amazing. It seems to me BYU vs Utah games are always decided by the last play of the game.


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## NHS

Fun game to watch. Congrats to the Utes. By the way.......

*HE WAS DOWN!!!!!!!*


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## orvis1

Ute fan should not gloat about this one, a great finish and kudos to making the block! The play of the game was the non overturned call of the fumble where the knee was down. You really can throw out the records when these two teams play! Shame someone had to lose that one...


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## Chaser

Treehugnhuntr said:


> I've heard it said that Jesus saves. I guess you can add referees to that list.....


Or you could wise up and realize that there were some bad calls on both sides of the ball. Don't forget about the generous spots for BYU in regards to first downs, as well as the bobbled "catch" as the BYU receiver was falling out of bounds that went to review and came back inconclusive (in BYU's favor.) 2 reviewed calls came back inconclusive in fact...one for each team.

If you have to blame the loss on anyone, blame in on the BYU RBs that fumbled the handoff from Heaps, and the dude that had his head up his ass as the ball came his way on that punt, hitting him, and turning it over to Utah.

Aside from that, BYU essentially had that game won until the blocked FG. It came down to that one play. BYU played an EXCELLENT game. Their stellar play was only overshadowed by those 2 follies. They DID play better that the U, and I tip my hat to them. Fortunately for my Utes, they made the necessary plays to come out on top. It was a close, exciting game. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. Also very frustrating!

Good job Utes! Glad I don't have to listen to BYU fans gloat for another year! And for you Y fans- I'm not one of those fans that thinks we dominated you, so I'll just be satisfied with the win, and not pretend it was a blowout.


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## Treehugnhuntr

I agree with everything you said Chaser, except for the un-highlighted parts of your quote below.



Chaser said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard it said that Jesus saves. I guess you can add referees to that list.....
> 
> 
> 
> Or you could wise up and realize that there were some bad calls on both sides of the ball. Don't forget about the generous spots for BYU in regards to first downs, as well as the bobbled "catch" as the BYU receiver was falling out of bounds that went to review and came back inconclusive (in BYU's favor.) 2 reviewed calls came back inconclusive in fact...one for each team.
> 
> If you have to blame the loss on anyone, blame in on the BYU RBs that fumbled the handoff from Heaps, and the dude that had his head up his ass as the ball came his way on that punt, hitting him, and turning it over to Utah.
> 
> Aside from that, BYU essentially had that game won until the blocked FG. It came down to that one play. BYU played an EXCELLENT game. Their stellar play was only overshadowed by those 2 follies. They DID play better that the U, and I tip my hat to them. Fortunately for my Utes, they made the necessary plays to come out on top. It was a close, exciting game. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. Also very frustrating!
> 
> Good job Utes! Glad I don't have to listen to BYU fans gloat for another year! And for you Y fans- I'm not one of those fans that thinks we dominated you, so I'll just be satisfied with the win, and not pretend it was a blowout.
Click to expand...


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## Chaser

Treehugnhuntr said:


> I agree with everything you said Chaser, except for the un-highlighted parts of your quote below.
> 
> 
> 
> Chaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard it said that Jesus saves. I guess you can add referees to that list.....
> 
> 
> 
> Or you could wise up and realize that there were some bad calls on both sides of the ball. Don't forget about the generous spots for BYU in regards to first downs, as well as the bobbled "catch" as the BYU receiver was falling out of bounds that went to review and came back inconclusive (in BYU's favor.) 2 reviewed calls came back inconclusive in fact...one for each team.
> 
> If you have to blame the loss on anyone, blame in on the BYU RBs that fumbled the handoff from Heaps, and the dude that had his head up his ass as the ball came his way on that punt, hitting him, and turning it over to Utah.
> 
> Aside from that, BYU essentially had that game won until the blocked FG. It came down to that one play. BYU played an EXCELLENT game. Their stellar play was only overshadowed by those 2 follies. They DID play better that the U, and I tip my hat to them. Fortunately for my Utes, they made the necessary plays to come out on top. It was a close, exciting game. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. Also very frustrating!
> 
> Good job Utes! Glad I don't have to listen to BYU fans gloat for another year! And for you Y fans- I'm not one of those fans that thinks we dominated you, so I'll just be satisfied with the win, and not pretend it was a blowout.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

LOL! You can believe anything you want, but if you'd go back and watch the plays I'm referring to, you'd see I'm right.


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## Catherder

All I will say is *OOO* *OOO* Life is good. *OOO* *OOO* You never know what will happen in the Holy war!




Yes, cougarfan, the knee was down. Congrats to Bronco and the zoobs for resurrecting their season and playing tough. Your future looks bright.


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## Treehugnhuntr

Chaser said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with everything you said Chaser, except for the un-highlighted parts of your quote below.
> 
> 
> 
> Chaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard it said that Jesus saves. I guess you can add referees to that list.....
> 
> 
> 
> Or you could wise up and realize that there were some bad calls on both sides of the ball. Don't forget about the generous spots for BYU in regards to first downs, as well as the bobbled "catch" as the BYU receiver was falling out of bounds that went to review and came back inconclusive (in BYU's favor.) 2 reviewed calls came back inconclusive in fact...one for each team.
> 
> If you have to blame the loss on anyone, blame in on the BYU RBs that fumbled the handoff from Heaps, and the dude that had his head up his ass as the ball came his way on that punt, hitting him, and turning it over to Utah.
> 
> Aside from that, BYU essentially had that game won until the blocked FG. It came down to that one play. BYU played an EXCELLENT game. Their stellar play was only overshadowed by those 2 follies. They DID play better that the U, and I tip my hat to them. Fortunately for my Utes, they made the necessary plays to come out on top. It was a close, exciting game. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. Also very frustrating!
> 
> Good job Utes! Glad I don't have to listen to BYU fans gloat for another year! And for you Y fans- I'm not one of those fans that thinks we dominated you, so I'll just be satisfied with the win, and not pretend it was a blowout.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL! You can believe anything you want, but if you'd go back and watch the plays I'm referring to, you'd see I'm right.
Click to expand...

I DVR'd the game, went back and watched, as you suggested.

Conclusion: Jesus is a referee.


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## huntingbuddy

Chaser said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard it said that Jesus saves. I guess you can add referees to that list.....
> 
> 
> 
> Or you could wise up and realize that there were some bad calls on both sides of the ball. Don't forget about the generous spots for BYU in regards to first downs, as well as the bobbled "catch" as the BYU receiver was falling out of bounds that went to review and came back inconclusive (in BYU's favor.) 2 reviewed calls came back inconclusive in fact...one for each team.
> 
> If you have to blame the loss on anyone, blame in on the BYU RBs that fumbled the handoff from Heaps, and the dude that had his head up **** the ball came his way on that punt, hitting him, and turning it over to Utah.
> 
> Aside from that, BYU essentially had that game won until the blocked FG. It came down to that one play. BYU played an EXCELLENT game. Their stellar play was only overshadowed by those 2 follies. They DID play better that the U, and I tip my hat to them. Fortunately for my Utes, they made the necessary plays to come out on top. It was a close, exciting game. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. Also very frustrating!
> 
> Good job Utes! Glad I don't have to listen to BYU fans gloat for another year! And for you Y fans- I'm not one of those fans that thinks we dominated you, so I'll just be satisfied with the win, and not pretend it was a blowout.
Click to expand...

+1 BYU now knows how San Diego State feels about botched fumble calls.

One of my friends posted this on his facebook thought I should share it.


> "when you live righteously off the field god steps in and blocks the field goal."


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## coyoteslayer

UTES WIN!!!!

OOO°)OO -()/>- -()/>- -()/>- -()/- -()/- -()/- -~|- *()* *()* *()* :-|O|-: :-|O|-: :-|O|-: :-|O|-: :-|O|-: -_O- -_O- -_O- :O--O: :O--O: :O--O: *-band-* *-band-* *-band-*

It's nice to see BYU getting punched in the mouth by a few bad calls. I have see a lot of bad calls over the years favoring BYU so it's nice every once in awhile to see the call go the other way.

BYU was favored on a few bad calls so we shouldn't let the bad calls take anything away from the game. Jake Heaps is actually pretty good


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## Al Hansen

Congrats to the UTES. And I'm still hated by Max Hall. :lol:


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## Treehugnhuntr

Al, I am going to start lobbying and petitioning for the revocation of your moderatorship.


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## Chaser

You're right CS- Heaps has really improved. BYU started their season rough, but they've pulled things back together nicely, and have a good future ahead of them. With more development, Heaps is gonna be really good.

On the other hand, I still have lots of questions about the Utes. Wynn has totally frustrated me the last 4 games. While he has some talent for throwing the ball, his decision making is sub-par. His confidence is fragile as eggs, and IMO, he lacks toughness. What seems odd to me is he showed he had it last year. Its like it just up and left when they lost to TCU, and it was shaky before that. 

The Utah defense is usually a strong part of the team. This year, it seemed to be a liability. Sure, they've made some good plays, but you couldn't count on it. The number of 3rd down conversions for BYU today proves this. In years past, it was a rarity to see them allow big plays in that situation. This year it was common. Let's hope they can pick up some good corners in the next off season.


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## coyoteslayer

Even Bronco made a bad call on 4 and 1 and instead of kicking the field goal then Jake Heaps makes a pass instead of giving it to a running back for 1 yd. -_O- -_O-


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## Catherder

Chaser said:


> Wynn has totally frustrated me the last 4 games. While he has some talent for throwing the ball, his decision making is sub-par. His confidence is fragile as eggs, and IMO, he lacks toughness. What seems odd to me is he showed he had it last year. Its like it just up and left when they lost to TCU, and it was shaky before that.


True, another big problem with Wynn is that he has ZERO running ability. When the U's offense has been at its best with Alex Smith and Brian Johnson, the read option run was a staple of our running attack. That component is totally absent with Wynn. That said, he is only a sophomore, and now he has a come-from-behind win over the archrivals to boost his confidence. He still may be OK.



Chaser said:


> The Utah defense is usually a strong part of the team. This year, it seemed to be a liability. Sure, they've made some good plays, but you couldn't count on it. The number of 3rd down conversions for BYU today proves this. In years past, it was a rarity to see them allow big plays in that situation. This year it was common. Let's hope they can pick up some good corners in the next off season.


Truth. Perhaps since almost our entire graduating secondaries the past few years have made it in the NFL, we are used to better play. Of our current crop, only Blechen seems to have a future at the next level.

I think the reason we may be a bit critical, even after beating the zoobs, is that a few weeks ago, we were in the BCS conversation. Events showed that we weren't THAT good, but if we go 10-2 every year, I'll still take it. AND WE WON TODAY!!!! *OOO* *(())*

One last thing, as said, kudos to Heaps and Bronco, but how will the "Y" do next year if Heaps goes on a mission? I don't know that they have that many playmakers, and isn't De Luigi graduating?.


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## Treehugnhuntr

If he's smart, he'll stay home.


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## Chaser

Treehugnhuntr said:


> If he's smart, he'll stay home.


You make an interesting and intriguing point, Tree. Its a big gamble as far as the sport goes. Takes him away from the game for 2 years, allowing him to get out of shape and lose his touch. But I can tell you this- I wouldn't trade my 2 years of service for anything. Football, while important to many, is only a small part of life. The lessons he'll learn as an honorable missionary will go with him for the rest of his life. The way I see it, its a gamble either way. If football doesn't pan out, he'll be glad he went. If it does pan out, he still may regret not going if that is his decision. Its definitely a sacrifice.


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## jahan

The Utes have obviously been living right on and off the field and paying the referee's, LOL. There were several bad calls on both sides, now BYU knows how SDSU feels. BYU impressed me and so did Heaps. Heaps played better than Wynn, BYU's defense was what shocked me the most. Well it was a great game with two well matched teams. BYU is just going to keep getting better over the next few years.


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## GaryFish

That was a great game to watch and enjoy. I wish it had been a couple points greater, but whatever. It was a great game of two very evenly matched teams in a tough rivalry. My thought is that the utes made plays when they had to, and BYU made some very costly mistakes, yet still positioned themselves to win inspite of those mistakes. Christopher's TD pass was just freaking incredible. Hundred times and that pass is dropped 99 of them, but he made the play. That freakish bounce on the punt? How does that happen? Wow. Another classic rivalry game and props to the utes for making plays when they had to be made. 

Just goes back to one of the rules of football - never trust a kicker. Or the replay booth on the road. ;-) And I thought we'd have to wait until the utes were "officially" in the Pac-10, to get "Pac-10'd"! Seriously, joking aside, when a play HAD to be made, the utes did. Nothing demonstrated that more than Christopher's catch. Clearly the play of the game. Wow.

Enjoy the bragging on this one utes. Its all yours for this year.


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## Al Hansen

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Al, I am going to start lobbying and petitioning for the revocation of your moderatorship.


Oh no. I'm sure you'll get enough votes to get r dun. Well it's been a fun ride.


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## Comrade Duck

It's 3:30 am and I can't sleep. It's partly due to mulling over the game in my mind, but I think more so to the 16 hour drive I have today out to southwest Kansas to hunt pheasant and quail. Either way I'm up and have nothing better to due than kill some time.

Another classic rivalry game. It's unbelievable how close these games have been over the years other than the Utes win in 08. I was hoping for a close game and had told myself that if the Cougs could stay within striking distance and have a chance to win it in the 4th I would be happy. I didn't expect a freshman laden team to put up the fight that they did and was impressed with how well they hung in there.

I don't like moral victories and so this one is starting to hurt the more that I think about what could have been. From my BYU perspective (Ute fans would argue with me and I would expect them to) the Cougars let this one slip away more so than the Utes actually took it from them. If they choose to kick a field goal rather than throw on 4th and 1, if Rich holds onto the ball on the 2 yard line it keeps the Utes from kicking their first field goal, if there wasn't confusion between the backs they don't have an unforced fumble, if the Utes punter doesn't shank the ball and if the replay officials overturn the fumble, I think anyone of those things happen and there is a very good chance that BYU leaves RES with a win.

A lot of what ifs. In the end it is scoreboard that counts and the Utes own it. Heck of a play by Burton to seal the deal. After winning so many close ones I guess it's about time the Utes get one of their own. 

BYU's future looks bright. Heaps is a stud and it was nice to see Jacobsen play well. I'm glad they still have a bowl game to hopefully end the season on a winning note.

Shane


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## Al Hansen

Comrade Duck said:


> It's 3:30 am and I can't sleep. It's partly due to mulling over the game in my mind, but I think more so to the 16 hour drive I have today out to southwest Kansas to hunt pheasant and quail. Either way I'm up and have nothing better to due than kill some time.
> 
> Another classic rivalry game. It's unbelievable how close these games have been over the years other than the Utes win in 08. I was hoping for a close game and had told myself that if the Cougs could stay within striking distance and have a chance to win it in the 4th I would be happy. I didn't expect a freshman laden team to put up the fight that they did and was impressed with how well they hung in there.
> 
> I don't like moral victories and so this one is starting to hurt the more that I think about what could have been. From my BYU perspective (Ute fans would argue with me and I would expect them to) the Cougars let this one slip away more so than the Utes actually took it from them. If they choose to kick a field goal rather than throw on 4th and 1, if Rich holds onto the ball on the 2 yard line it keeps the Utes from kicking their first field goal, if there wasn't confusion between the backs they don't have an unforced fumble, if the Utes punter doesn't shank the ball and if the replay officials overturn the fumble, I think anyone of those things happen and there is a very good chance that BYU leaves RES with a win.
> 
> A lot of what ifs. In the end it is scoreboard that counts and the Utes own it. Heck of a play by Burton to seal the deal. After winning so many close ones I guess it's about time the Utes get one of their own.
> 
> BYU's future looks bright. Heaps is a stud and it was nice to see Jacobsen play well. I'm glad they still have a bowl game to hopefully end the season on a winning note.
> 
> Shane


Very nice post and good luck on your hunt. Please drive safe.


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## Huge29

Al Hansen said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Al, I am going to start lobbying and petitioning for the revocation of your moderatorship.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no. I'm sure you'll get enough votes to get r dun. Well it's been a fun ride.
Click to expand...

That makes two votes, too many red guys in green! :mrgreen:


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## GaryFish

Nah. Al's a good guy- ute or not. I'm true blue but not a hater. I leave that to Max Hall, and 3/4 of "utefans" out there.


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## Huge29

GaryFish said:


> Nah. Al's a good guy- ute or not. I'm true blue but not a hater. I leave that to Max Hall, and 3/4 of "utefans" out there.


Did you catch the one ute player in a quick interview on the news saying "I hate these guys and it is great to send the losers home crying?" I guess that was a shot to rebut Hall, yet I guess the Y fans are not susceptible to crying about such stupid comments and have much thicker skin than those who were offended by Hall's equally stupid comments.


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## Huge29

Treehugnhuntr said:


> If he's smart, he'll stay home.


I heard from my dad's barber's neighbor's sister who grooms Jake's cat that he is not going on a mission. Being a guy who had his own PR director, I would guess that he opts out of the mission.

I am interested to see what will be stated by the conference tomorrow.
It also makes me wonder who will do the replay booth for the Y once indpendent? Would they just contract with that new association of Big 10, Mtn West?


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## Riverrat77

Huge29 said:


> Did you catch the one ute player in a quick interview on the news saying "I hate these guys and it is great to send the losers home crying?" I guess that was a shot to rebut Hall, yet I guess the Y fans are not susceptible to crying about such stupid comments and have much thicker skin than those who were offended by Hall's equally stupid comments.


Stupidity on both sides is annoying.... I'm sure there will be talk at the Y about the Ute player that hates them all as well. Max was just a douche who was in the spotlight.... I'm guessing unless it had been Brandon Burton or Brian Blechen who made the comment, the impact of the comment would have been totally lost on most of the Y crowd anyway. Guess that just shows the Ute players making an impact can conduct themselves with a little class after a big win.


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## Dodger

The game was exciting. I was not only proud of the way the Cougs played, I was proud of the way they handled themselves. I saw blue hands extending for red hands many times to help them up. I also saw blue players gracious in defeat. 

It is unfortunate that the outcome of the game was so affected by poor officiating. BYU had a couple close calls go their way but the one that wasn't close, and most important, didn't. Calls go the way they go, even when they are visually and incontrovertibly wrong. 

Congratulations on a big block Ute fans. Made for an exciting finish.

Also, on a more personal level, thanks to everyone for the general good-natured-ness of this year's rivalry. It made it a lot more fun for all involved. 

I've lived up to my end of the wager. I'll be sporting the U until either BYU plays in a bowl game and I won't be discussing Utah's team in this post or others until then, even though the other side of that deal has already been broken...


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## Chaser

A little food for thought when it comes to what will surely be referred to as "THE CALL"- there were two calls that had to go to the replay booth: The first was the "catch" made by the BYU receiver on the near sideline. He bobbled that sucker all the way out of bounds. Were his feet in? Sure. But, did he have control of the ball before making contact out of bounds? The original call was "complete" and went to the replay booth for review. Of course, being a Utah fan, I thought the call should have been overturned, but because the replay came back "INCONCLUSIVE", the call on the field had to stand...by rule. Because the call favored BYU, Utah was not able to force a 4th and whatever, and it allowed BYU to eventually score.

We're all familiar with THE CALL that so many Y fans are complaining about. Same thing happened. The original ruling on the field was a fumble, and the question was "was the ball coming loose before he was down?" Again, video evidence could not prove that the Y player had possession of the ball when his leg went down, so again we see another "inconclusive" call, and the ruling on the field stands. Utah gets the ball, and eventually scores.

So you see, this is a two edged sword. BYU got burned by one, and Utah got burned by one. So some of you Y fans can be bitter about it all you want. In the end, it happened to both teams. What can you do? A loss to your rival is always a tough pill to swallow, but someone has to do it each year. So suck it up, and quit moaning about "home cooking", bad calls, etc. Finally-ask yourselves this: Had BYU won that game, would you still be complaining about bad officiating? I think not.


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## Igottabigone

Bradley's knee is STILL down


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## Dodger

Chaser said:


> We're all familiar with THE CALL that so many Y fans are complaining about. Same thing happened. The original ruling on the field was a fumble, and the question was "was the ball coming loose before he was down?" Again, video evidence could not prove that the Y player had possession of the ball when his leg went down, so again we see another "inconclusive" call, and the ruling on the field stands. Utah gets the ball, and eventually scores.


Yes, it did. There are like 5 video frames between the ball moving and his knee going down. The only way the booth couldn't see it is if they didn't have the view that everyone watching the game did.



Chaser said:


> So you see, this is a two edged sword. BYU got burned by one, and Utah got burned by one. So some of you Y fans can be bitter about it all you want. In the end, it happened to both teams. What can you do? A loss to your rival is always a tough pill to swallow, but someone has to do it each year. So suck it up, and quit moaning about "home cooking", bad calls, etc. Finally-ask yourselves this: Had BYU won that game, would you still be complaining about bad officiating? I think not.


Please, you can't compare an inconclusive call to one that was plainly a blown call. Utah can't be burned by a call that was inconclusive. Was the bobbled catch close? Yes, it was. But if the video replay evidence is inconclusive, it is inconclusive. There was nothing inconclusive about the Bradley interception. Arguing that there was one bad call for both teams is like arguing that a guy on the side of the road with a blown tire is the same as a guy driving with a bald tire.

BYU made some bad decisions that I lay at the feet of Robert Anae. I am fine if BYU loses but I feel differently when the game is decided by a bad call.

And one final point. If Utah had won the game would you still be complaining about he bad officiating? Clearly if we're talking about the bobbled catch, yes, we would be...


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## gitterdone81

It was Brooks that was hating.


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## HighNDry

Well, so much for my prediction of Utah blowing BYU out this year. It was a good close game with good and bad plays for both sides. The only thing I come away with from this years rivalry and season is this: BYU had a rough year and took too much time trying to figure out what they wanted to do as a football team. Utah provbed that they were over-ranked all year and are a good program looking to be a great program. I think both programs are in for a very rude awakening next year. BYU will play some tough teams and some bad teams and continue the winning tradition because of a somewhat questionable schedule. Utah will get their butts kicked around by middle of the PAC teams that are big and fast regardless of what their records state. Utah proved to me that they are not as good as even the 500 teams in the PAC. But, hey, they're from Utah so I will cheer them on.


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## Chaser

Dodger said:


> Chaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> We're all familiar with THE CALL that so many Y fans are complaining about. Same thing happened. The original ruling on the field was a fumble, and the question was "was the ball coming loose before he was down?" Again, video evidence could not prove that the Y player had possession of the ball when his leg went down, so again we see another "inconclusive" call, and the ruling on the field stands. Utah gets the ball, and eventually scores.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it did. There are like 5 video frames between the ball moving and his knee going down. The only way the booth couldn't see it is if they didn't have the view that everyone watching the game did.
> 
> 
> 
> Chaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you see, this is a two edged sword. BYU got burned by one, and Utah got burned by one. So some of you Y fans can be bitter about it all you want. In the end, it happened to both teams. What can you do? A loss to your rival is always a tough pill to swallow, but someone has to do it each year. So suck it up, and quit moaning about "home cooking", bad calls, etc. Finally-ask yourselves this: Had BYU won that game, would you still be complaining about bad officiating? I think not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please, you can't compare an inconclusive call to one that was plainly a blown call. Utah can't be burned by a call that was inconclusive. Was the bobbled catch close? Yes, it was. But if the video replay evidence is inconclusive, it is inconclusive. There was nothing inconclusive about the Bradley interception. Arguing that there was one bad call for both teams is like arguing that a guy on the side of the road with a blown tire is the same as a guy driving with a bald tire. WTF??? Is that supposed to be some kind of analogy?
> 
> BYU made some bad decisions that I lay at the feet of Robert Anae. I am fine if BYU loses but I feel differently when the game is decided by a bad call. Stop blaming the call, and face up to the fact that it was a cumulative effect of several things. You named play calling (a throw play on 4th and 1 stands out to me). Another instance I can think of was the punt that boinked off the BYU player who wasn't paying attention.
> 
> And one final point. If Utah had won the game would you still be complaining about he bad officiating? Clearly if we're talking about the bobbled catch, yes, we would be...
Click to expand...

No, sir, I would ABSOLUTELY not have complained. If you would go back and read my previous posts in this thread, you would see that I have been very critical of the Utes in this game. I have been very critical for the past 4 weeks. I also gave props to BYU for their solid play in the game. I'll be the first to say THE UTES GOT BEAT ALL DAY LONG. They did not play as good as the Y did. But in the end, they made the necessary plays to win the game. Again, I will in no way try to rub this in the face of Y fans, because IMO, my team was outplayed. Sure, they won, but it was not in a big way. It was close, as these games always seem to be. Had the Utes lost, I would have blamed it on nothing more than their own ****ty play.


----------



## Riverrat77

Dodger said:


> Yes, it did. There are like 5 video frames between the ball moving and his knee going down. The only way the booth couldn't see it is if they didn't have the view that everyone watching the game did.


Hmmmm thats odd. I was on the west side of the stadium watching that play with what I considered a very good view of the game and I couldn't tell you whether that play was conclusively a fumble or not. Guess it must have been the other 45,000 fans that saw it differently than the booth. Point is, make that field goal and its a non issue. Get back to me on the bad officiating after you get the opinion of the booth official (BYU Student) that helped overturn the San Diego State fumble that everyone in the stadium and watching on tv KNEW was a fumble. I don't call it bad officiating... I call it living right, karma coming back to haunt BYU or some such thing. God reveals himself in the strangest ways sometimes. Oh yeah... where's Harvey? :twisted:


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## HighNDry

I would like to see them take the replay out of the game again. I can't believe how many times in the college and pro ranks I have seen stupid replays go the wrong way or have the ref say it's inconclusive. Just let the refs blow the calls and make them like they used to do. It's a game of errors from the coaches, to the players, to the refs. Video replay has not improved on anything.

As for Harvey--he's in the NFL. I know that's not saying much Alex Smith is still there too. -_O-


----------



## Dodger

Riverrat77 said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it did. There are like 5 video frames between the ball moving and his knee going down. The only way the booth couldn't see it is if they didn't have the view that everyone watching the game did.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmm thats odd. I was on the west side of the stadium watching that play with what I considered a very good view of the game and I couldn't tell you whether that play was conclusively a fumble or not. Guess it must have been the other 45,000 fans that saw it differently than the booth. Point is, make that field goal and its a non issue. Get back to me on the bad officiating after you get the opinion of the booth official (BYU Student) that helped overturn the San Diego State fumble that everyone in the stadium and watching on tv KNEW was a fumble. I don't call it bad officiating... I call it living right, karma coming back to haunt BYU or some such thing. God reveals himself in the strangest ways sometimes. Oh yeah... where's Harvey? :twisted:
Click to expand...

Maybe I should have clarified but what I meant by the "view that everyone watching the game did" was the people that were watching the game on TV.

Have you watched the replay? Can you honestly say the ball was "out" before his knee hit the ground? At best, the ball was moving, maybe. But the ball wasn't "out."

Point is, when the call is called right, there is no need to make a field goal. BYU was 2 first downs (which they made on the last series) from kneeing this one out.

I've heard a lot of people talking about the San Diego St. game. There was an error. The play was blown dead too early. The call was correct based on the events, as they unfolded. That is not the case here. The call in last week's game was not correct based on the events, as they unfolded. It had nothing to do with a student in the booth and there is no evidence whatsoever that the student "help[ed] overturn the call." It WAS a fumble but it was AFTER the whistle. That's not what happened here.

I don't call it bad officiating. I call it a mistake. They happen. It's just too bad that this one changed the outcome of the game and handed the other team an unearned win.


----------



## Chaser

> Have you watched the replay? Can you honestly say the ball was "out" before his knee hit the ground? At best, the ball was moving, maybe. But the ball wasn't "out."


This quote right here highlights the meaning of "inconclusive". The call was made, the replay didn't show enough to overturn it. And if all you Y fans felt the same as HND in regards to scrapping the replay, the call would have been the same anyway!

You guys can keep whining about it all you want. It won't change the outcome. You're right, BYU was more deserving of the win. But they didn't! I can see how this is hard for many of you right now. Its like trying to swallow a jagged chicken bone; never goes down easy.


----------



## Dodger

Chaser said:


> Have you watched the replay? Can you honestly say the ball was "out" before his knee hit the ground? At best, the ball was moving, maybe. But the ball wasn't "out."
> 
> 
> 
> This quote right here highlights the meaning of "inconclusive". The call was made, the replay didn't show enough to overturn it. And if all you Y fans felt the same as HND in regards to scrapping the replay, the call would have been the same anyway!
> 
> You guys can keep whining about it all you want. It won't change the outcome. You're right, BYU was more deserving of the win. But they didn't! I can see how this is hard for many of you right now. Its like trying to swallow a jagged chicken bone; never goes down easy.
Click to expand...

There's nothing inconclusive about it. If you look at when possession is lost (i.e., the ball is out), there's no question.

I'm not whining about it. I don't know how many times I said that calls go the way they go. I just think it was an embarrassing win. It certainly doesn't afford bragging rights.

I think both sides should feel a little cheated by the call. This one goes in the record books with an asterisk - and that's an outcome that neither side wants.


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## coyoteslayer

Dodger, just wear your U Avatar with pride and get over it.


----------



## jahan

Dodger said:


> Chaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you watched the replay? Can you honestly say the ball was "out" before his knee hit the ground? At best, the ball was moving, maybe. But the ball wasn't "out."
> 
> 
> 
> This quote right here highlights the meaning of "inconclusive". The call was made, the replay didn't show enough to overturn it. And if all you Y fans felt the same as HND in regards to scrapping the replay, the call would have been the same anyway!
> 
> You guys can keep whining about it all you want. It won't change the outcome. You're right, BYU was more deserving of the win. But they didn't! I can see how this is hard for many of you right now. Its like trying to swallow a jagged chicken bone; never goes down easy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's nothing inconclusive about it. If you look at when possession is lost (i.e., the ball is out), there's no question.
> 
> I'm not whining about it. I don't know how many times I said that calls go the way they go. I just think it was an embarrassing win. It certainly doesn't afford bragging rights.
> 
> I think both sides should feel a little cheated by the call. This one goes in the record books with an asterisk - and that's an outcome that neither side wants.
Click to expand...

So then using your reasoning, should the SDSU game go in the books with an asterisks also? That play in the SDSU game was a bigger game changer than the call in the Utah game. Just curious. I do think they got the call wrong, but there were multiple other calls that went BYU's way, that is the nature of the game when you have humans officiating.


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## Dodger

jahan said:


> So then using your reasoning, should the SDSU game go in the books with an asterisks also? That play in the SDSU game was a bigger game changer than the call in the Utah game. Just curious. I do think they got the call wrong, but there were multiple other calls that went BYU's way, that is the nature of the game when you have humans officiating.


I've already said that the SDSU situation was different. The right call was made. The mistake was that the whistle was blown early. Did points result as a direct consequence of the call? No. If anyone cared about the SDSU/BYU history, sure, put an asterisk on it. No one cares though.

I don't see how you can say the SDSU fumble was a bigger game changer. An interception run back that is negated by the bad call that directly results in Utah getting a touchdown to that ties the game and puts them up by 1 with the PAT? No, I don't think so.

There were other calls that went BYU's way where the evidence was actually inconclusive and called correctly based on the video evidence. Did Mahina really catch that ball? I don't know. His feet looked like they were in. I think the question was whether he was bobbling the ball. Mahina had his back to the ref that made the call. The ref had to make a decision and, did he give Mahina the benefit of the doubt based on seeing Mahina on the ground, football in hand? Yeah, probably. But, there was nothing on the video that said he didn't catch it. Was it a catch? I don't know. I doubt Mahina knows.

That's the nature of the game when humans call it. When the video doesn't give an answer, you have to make a determination. In the absence of all other evidence, you give the call on the field the benefit of the doubt. This one didn't need to get to that.


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## coyoteslayer

Dodger, the ball came out before his knee was down. You dont even see the ball when his knee is down. I only see his other black knee. The BYU player knew he fumbled it too.


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## Dodger

Chaser said:


> [WTF??? Is that supposed to be some kind of analogy?


Yes, that's what they are called.



Chaser said:


> BYU made some bad decisions that I lay at the feet of Robert Anae. I am fine if BYU loses but I feel differently when the game is decided by a bad call. Stop blaming the call, and face up to the fact that it was a cumulative effect of several things. You named play calling (a throw play on 4th and 1 stands out to me). Another instance I can think of was the punt that boinked off the BYU player who wasn't paying attention.


I agree. I think BYU made some lousy play calls, as I mentioned above. One example you pointed out is a bad BYU call. The other is a lucky shanked punt for the U. But, neither directly affected the points on the board in the same way that the blown call did. You can't legitimately debate that.



Chaser said:


> And one final point. If Utah had won the game would you still be complaining about he bad officiating? Clearly if we're talking about the bobbled catch, yes, we would be...
> 
> 
> 
> No, sir, I would ABSOLUTELY not have complained. If you would go back and read my previous posts in this thread, you would see that I have been very critical of the Utes in this game. I have been very critical for the past 4 weeks. I also gave props to BYU for their solid play in the game. I'll be the first to say THE UTES GOT BEAT ALL DAY LONG. They did not play as good as the Y did. But in the end, they made the necessary plays to win the game. Again, I will in no way try to rub this in the face of Y fans, because IMO, my team was outplayed. Sure, they won, but it was not in a big way. It was close, as these games always seem to be. Had the Utes lost, I would have blamed it on nothing more than their own **** play.
Click to expand...

I agree with everything you said. I'm only pointing out that you were complaining about the bobbled catch call. But, I don't think there is much worth complaining about on that play, as I mentioned in my previous post.


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## coyoteslayer

Another Bad call was putting Cain in the game because he gave BYU chances to win the game.


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## Dodger

coyoteslayer said:


> Dodger, the ball came out before his knee was down. You dont even see the ball when his knee is down. I only see his other black knee. The BYU player knew he fumbled it too.


http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=272&sid=13446903

Time index 1:03. You can see the top of the football, identified by the white stripe on the front of it. Bradley's knee is down. You don't see the ball start to move until time index 1:04 when the Utah player pulls on the ball for the first time. Ball is moving at 1:05 and is out by 1:06. Only problem is that he was down back at 1:03.


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## jahan

Dodger said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dodger, the ball came out before his knee was down. You dont even see the ball when his knee is down. I only see his other black knee. The BYU player knew he fumbled it too.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=272&sid=13446903
> 
> Time index 1:03. You can see the top of the football, identified by the white stripe on the front of it. Bradley's knee is down. You don't see the ball start to move until time index 1:04 when the Utah player pulls on the ball for the first time. Ball is moving at 1:05 and is out by 1:06. Only problem is that he was down back at 1:03.
Click to expand...

I personally agree with you that it was a missed call. Nonetheless, it was a great game.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

The knee was down, no question about it. To say otherwise is disingenuous. 

The Cougars deserved to lose for leaving it in the ref's hands. So many bad calls were made- a pass on 4th and a foot when they had a chance to go up two scores...Why? The decision to run it up the gut twice early on in the last drive and then again there at the end before the field goal...Why? A failure to recognize that a two-point conversion prevents the Utes from pulling ahead with a touchdown...Why?

Then there was Luke Ashworth dropping two perfectly thrown balls that would have moved the Cougs down the field. The fumbled handoff killed BYU. All Brian Logan had to do on his interception was hit the dirt and the Cougars could have run out the clock. The BYU offensive line failed to even attempt to block out the left side. That kick was good otherwise. Payne smashed the ball and it was headed true. Utah saw the weakness and pounced on it. 

Truly BYU had plenty of chances. To blame it on the refs is crap, even though the refs made a crap for a call. 

One last thing- that Devonte Christopher catch was the sickest thing I've ever seen! I took my hat off to him on that one.


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## Huge29

coyoteslayer said:


> the ball came out before his knee was down. You dont even see the ball when his knee is down. I only see his other black knee. The BYU player knew he fumbled it too.


You are the only person who has said such a thing. I would dare guess that 90+% of people agree that it was not a fumble, not that that was the game all in one call, but that call was indeed incorrect.


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## coyoteslayer

Hook, line, and sinker. I caught another Huge 29 inch trout in the bottom of the pool. He loves taking my bait because he cannot resist. -|\O- -_O- 

I even said the night after the game that it was a bad call, but the bait was just to much.

Huge maybe you need to take your own advice on personal attacks.

Huge learn to take a joke


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## Huge29

Here is a really good read on the subject, but be sure to have a long long time free to read all of it http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=272&sid=13446903


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## orvis1

Wow Y fan is really gripping... You had every opportunity to put the Utes away (the Irish had no trouble with them) and you got to aggressive when you should have kicked a field goal. Later in the game you got to conservative when you should have went for a TD and ran out the clock (bad play calling). Either way the UTES made the play to win the game with that blocked kick. Let Ute fan gloat and enjoy the win after all scoreboard right? Enjoy your independence cougar fan jealousy is seeing both the Utes and TCU going to BCS conferences while you play Southwest Kansas State Culinary Academy on ESPNU wed at 10pm.


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## HighNDry

I still say let the ref make the best call he can and get rid of the replay. In the full speed of the play the ref made the best call he could. In the full speed of the game, the players and coaches make the calls and plays as best they can for that situation. To go back after the game and think all the whinning is going to change the outcome is wasted breath. Here is something Y fans can hold onto: You jumped to independence too quick. You should have done as you preach and put football 5th on things of importance, but no, the money came calling with the ESPN deal and you jumped after it. Had you stayed in the conference, you could have ruled it and had 10+ win seasons every year which is what most fans want and you could still whine about not being respected and getting a shot at a BSC game. You have no conference championship to play for, you will still whine that no one wants to respect you, and a 500 Utah team in the PAC will still feel satisfied with any type of win over BYU.


----------



## Riverrat77

jahan said:


> So then using your reasoning, should the SDSU game go in the books with an asterisks also? That play in the SDSU game was a bigger game changer than the call in the Utah game. Just curious. I do think they got the call wrong, but there were multiple other calls that went BYU's way, that is the nature of the game when you have humans officiating.


I absolutely agree.... no asterisks... its just a blown call (or whistle as the case may be) that cost the other team a possession and resulted in oddly enough, a missed field goal to win the game in both situations. BYU fans just can't hack the thought of not everything going their way so unfortunately, even though its not as bad when it affects somebody else to BYU's gain apparently, we'll have to hear about it until there is just a blowout one way or another for the teams when they play next year.

Oh... and Orvis.... good one man. :lol:

I do have the game on DVR at home... but I figure I'd probably feel exactly the same way about that call as I do the San Diego State call. Whether points came from the result of the call or not, it was one call. Its like Boise State's coach said on his post game interview. There is never ONE single thing that costs your team the game, its a cumulative effect of multiple circumstances and for BYU fans to say that call cost them the game is ridiculous when the simple fact is that BYU couldn't close out the Utes when a clutch play was needed. Anything else is makeup on the pig.


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## GaryFish

Going for it on fourth and 1 in the first was a good call. And the play-action pass was a good call. Jake delivered a perfect pass and his receiver dropped it. It was a flat out drop - not forced or anything. Had he not dropped it, the Y would have scored a TD on the next four plays. It was a gamble. But at that point, the coaches knew that Utah would eventually get it together offensively and field goals would not be enough to win the game. It was a freakingly gutsy move. And the receiver dropped it. But a bad play call? Not in my opinion. It was an attempt to put the dagger into a struggling opponent. I like that.

I've chosen not to go off about the "fumble" call. As I saw the game, sure the Y got screwed. But that was only one of many plays that made them fall short. The dropped 4th down pass. The screwed up punt thing. The failure to advance and go for a TD to set up the blocked field goal. The tipped pass that Christopher caught for the TD. Andrew Rich's dropped INT at the goal line. There were a ton of things that just plain didn't go the Y's way for whatever reason. On the flip side, when a key play REALLY HAD TO BE MADE, the utes made it. And they won. As a pure fan of the great game of college football, the game was a treat. Sure I wish BYU would have come out on top. But it is their own fault they didn't. It was still a great game and shows how truely close the two programs are under the current coaching regimes.


And Orvis - I'm guessing you are referencing BYU's series with Notre Dame there.


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## orvis1

GaryFish said:


> And Orvis - I'm guessing you are referencing BYU's series with Notre Dame there.


Its o.k. to be jealous... BYU might get shown on NBC if they play the Irish. But ESPNU, will treat you well on those 10pm games they money is there right? ND has a bad year they are projected to the champs sports bowl. BYU has a bad year they watch Utah play in the vegas bowl with jealous rage while they enjoy the new Mexico bowl. This should be a good place for a poster...

*Independence....

Your doing it wrong.... *


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## Riverrat77

Too bad there isn't a way to superimpose the ND scoreboard against the Utes in the same picture as the rivalry game scoreboard.... that would be your poster.


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## mm73

You cant blame the outcome of the game on one blown call, when the Cougars turned the ball over two additional times in the same quarter. The Cougars choked in the 4th quarter, plain and simple. Football is all about momentum and Utah captured the momentum after stopping BYU on 4th and inches at the 10 yard line and it was all downhill for BYU from there. A fumbled handoff, a special teams turnover on a punt return, and an offensive coordinator who refused to show any confidence in his QB even when he was marching the team down field with poise and skill is ultimately why BYU deservedly lost the game.


----------



## mm73

GaryFish said:


> Going for it on fourth and 1 in the first was a good call. And the play-action pass was a good call. Jake delivered a perfect pass and his receiver dropped it. It was a flat out drop - not forced or anything. Had he not dropped it, the Y would have scored a TD on the next four plays. It was a gamble.


Gary I am going to disagree with you here. Yes, Jake delivered a perfect pass, and Hoffman just flat out dropped it. And even though I have been griping about Anae not trusting Jake enough in that game, I think in that particular situation the decision to go for it with a risky play action pass, instead of taking the FG or going with a higher percentage run play was a pivotal point in the game that allowed Utah to regain all the momentum. It was a dumb decision that has even been questioned publicly by some of the other coaches like Lance Reynolds. If you are going to go for it then why would you throw the ball when all you need is a few inches? Use your big O-line and push the pile and you are almost guaranteed to convert it. Throw the ball, knowing that your receivers have been dropping passes all season, and your odds of conversion are MUCH lower. The problem with Anae is that he is so predictable and the only way he knows how to be unpredictable is to be unwise.


----------



## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> Gary I am going to disagree with you here. Yes, Jake delivered a perfect pass, and Hoffman just flat out dropped it. And even though I have been griping about Anae not trusting Jake enough in that game, I think in that particular situation the decision to go for it with a risky play action pass, instead of taking the FG or going with a higher percentage run play was a pivotal point in the game that allowed Utah to regain all the momentum.


+1
BYU has one of the biggest offensive lines in college football. It wasn't fourth and one, it was fourth and a foot. Run a heavy, hard hitter like Kariya or Mendenhall behind those hogs and you should get at least a foot every time...Or, continue to play the field position game and take a two score lead with a field goal. There was no need to throw the ball in that situation. Lance Reynolds called the decision to throw a pass, "Stupid".

Like people have been saying, though, it wasn't one bad coaching call that lost BYU the game. There were a bunch of mistakes made on Saturday by players, coaches, and referees. You can always count on a few mistakes by the refs. BYU didn't limit their own mistakes and that cost them the game.


----------



## HighNDry

orvis1 said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> And Orvis - I'm guessing you are referencing BYU's series with Notre Dame there.
> 
> 
> 
> Its o.k. to be jealous... BYU might get shown on NBC if they play the Irish. But ESPNU, will treat you well on those 10pm games they money is there right? ND has a bad year they are projected to the champs sports bowl. BYU has a bad year they watch Utah play in the vegas bowl with jealous rage while they enjoy the new Mexico bowl. This should be a good place for a poster...
> 
> *Indpendance....
> 
> Your doing it wrong.... *
Click to expand...

And you're spelling it wrong. :lol:


----------



## HighNDry

For the record: if you look at the last half of the season most people will say the Utes choked and the Y was improving. I don't think BYU choked in that game. In my opinion Utah had the better team this year and should have beat BYU by a couple TDs at least, but they choked coming down the stretch this season falling all the way from #5 in the country to out of the top 20. That right there is choking. They played pathetic the last 4 games and as a fan, I am kind of embarassed that everyone thought they would go into the PAC and rule. Their play against teams with a winning record indicate that they have a lot of work to do. They are defenitely going to struggle in the PAC. Remember when they were the bottom dwellers of the WAC? Get ready for the bottom dwelling of the PAC and again, place your hopes for some type of half-crazed delusion that beating BYU makes your season. The future looks . . .mediocre at best.


----------



## mm73

BirdDogger said:


> Like people have been saying, though, it wasn't one bad coaching call that lost BYU the game. There were a bunch of mistakes made on Saturday by players, coaches, and referees. You can always count on a few mistakes by the refs. BYU didn't limit their own mistakes and that cost them the game.


Well said.


----------



## mm73

HighNDry said:


> They are defenitely going to struggle in the PAC. Remember when they were the bottom dwellers of the WAC? Get ready for the bottom dwelling of the PAC and again, place your hopes for some type of half-crazed delusion that beating BYU makes your season. The future looks . . .mediocre at best.


I am not going to say that Utah is going to be mediocre in the PAC, but I do think there are a lot of Ute fans who are delusional about how well they are going to do right off the bat. I work up at the U so I work with A LOT of Ute fans and have heard many predictions that Utah is going to take the PAC by storm and immediately be a contender for the Rose Bowl, and even an NC (to be fair, I have not heard any of this talk since the TCU game). All those things are certainly possible but to hear so many Ute fans saying "mark it down" is arrogant and delusional beyond anything I have ever heard BYU fans say. And I do think Utah is going to struggle the first couple of years in the PAC as they adjust to the more intense level of competition week in and week out. I also think Utah is going to struggle offensively next year. Look at their roster and count how many seniors they are losing this year. Shakey, Wide, Asiata, Brooks to name just a few. I think they will experience what BYU experienced this year after losing Hall, Unga, Pitta and George.


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## Dodger

HighNDry said:


> I still say let the ref make the best call he can and get rid of the replay. In the full speed of the play the ref made the best call he could. In the full speed of the game, the players and coaches make the calls and plays as best they can for that situation. To go back after the game and think all the whinning is going to change the outcome is wasted breath. Here is something Y fans can hold onto: You jumped to independence too quick. You should have done as you preach and put football 5th on things of importance, but no, the money came calling with the ESPN deal and you jumped after it. Had you stayed in the conference, you could have ruled it and had 10+ win seasons every year which is what most fans want and you could still whine about not being respected and getting a shot at a BSC game. You have no conference championship to play for, you will still whine that no one wants to respect you, and a 500 Utah team in the PAC will still feel satisfied with any type of win over BYU.


 :lol: The call was clearly blown. It isn't whining to point that out. It's also not whining to point out that BYU stopped Utah 2x in that same drive. The first time they got the ball back, it was legit. The second time, it was a gift from the referee.

You Ute fans can watch and see how well independence treats BYU. You can watch and see how the ESPN contract will make BYU's program even better. You Ute fans can talk about Southwest Culinary Institute on ESPNU on Wed. at 10 p.m. but it must hurt to know that ESPN will pay more to show that game than it will to show USC at Utah.

There is no pleasing Utefan. If BYU had stayed in the MWC, we would basically now be in the WAC playing more of the same teams that you are criticizing us for playing now. I ask all Ute fans complaining about our schedule: *who are we supposed to play when schedules are determined 5-6 years out?* What is BYU supposed to do with a year's advanced notice? Every other team has already scheduled their seasons for the next 5 years. Contracts are signed. What do you want?

Conference championships are meaningless as are the bowl games. They are toilet paper. Conference championships in BCS conferences mean a BCS game but everywhere else they do nothing. A conference championship in a BCS conference means your team makes a lot more money. Well, guess what. BYU is going to be making 1000% more money next year than it made this year. While Utah is handing it's money hand over fist to USC and UCLA in order to sit at the big boy table, BYU will be bringing that money to Provo.

You said it all right here: "a 500 Utah team in the PAC will still feel satisfied with any type of win over BYU." That sure seems like a lot of respect from Utah for a team that supposedly gets "no respect."


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## Riverrat77

Dodger said:


> :lol: The call was clearly blown. It isn't whining to point that out. *Yes... yes it is, especially since the game didn't hing on one call... it hinged on making a clutch field goal. The game is over... you get some your way and you lose some. BYU has NO room to whine about bad calls... period.* It's also not whining to point out that BYU stopped Utah 2x in that same drive. The first time they got the ball back, it was legit. The second time, it was a gift from the referee.
> 
> You Ute fans can watch and see how well independence treats BYU. Ummmm no thanks, we'll be busy watching GOOD football.You can watch and see how the ESPN contract will make BYU's program even better. You Ute fans can talk about Southwest Culinary Institute on ESPNU on Wed. at 10 p.m. but it must hurt to know that ESPN will pay more to show that game than it will to show *USC at Utah*. Oh... you mean on the other ESPN affiliate ABC that is available in EVERY household? :roll:
> 
> There is no pleasing Utefan. If BYU had stayed in the MWC, we would basically now be in the WAC playing more of the same teams that you are criticizing us for playing now. And you'd be getting beat by teams like Nevada and Boise State which we would still ridicule you for.I ask all Ute fans complaining about our schedule: *who are we supposed to play when schedules are determined 5-6 years out?* What is BYU supposed to do with a year's advanced notice? Stay put and realize you're not really wanted by any of the major conferences.... duh.  :lol: Every other team has already scheduled their seasons for the next 5 years. Contracts are signed. What do you want?
> 
> Conference championships are meaningless as are the bowl games. This reeks of bitterness because the Y won't be in one.They are toilet paper. Conference championships in BCS conferences mean a BCS game but everywhere else they do nothing. A conference championship in a BCS conference means your team makes a lot more money. Well, guess what. BYU is going to be making 1000% more money next year than it made this year. While Utah is handing it's money hand over fist to USC and UCLA in order to sit at the big boy table, BYU will be bringing that money to Provo. Congrats to the Y... you keep on basking in your own insignificance.
> 
> You said it all right here: "a 500 Utah team in the PAC will still feel satisfied with any type of win over BYU." That sure seems like a lot of respect from Utah for a team that supposedly gets "no respect."


Nah... its not respect.... its being glad that the game was won by the team in red, nothing more. Thats like trying to associate greatness with independence.... you're reaching on both accounts.


----------



## Dodger

Not very constructive RR. It also doesn't make it very fun to talk with you about it because you can't/won't be reasonable. I asked a legit question. 

You can assign whatever meaning you want to what I said. Call it whining, it isn't. Call it bitterness, it isn't. I don't really care what you call it. 

We've already gone the rounds on this. You aren't interested in a constructive discussion. You're only interested in hating BYU.


----------



## Riverrat77

And your comments were constructive in what way? Is it only constructive if I agree with you? Call me destructive then if it suits you because while I was mostly poking fun at your post, I really don't agree with most of it and I do consider it a lot of whining because things just didn't go your way.



Dodger said:


> :lol: The call was clearly blown. It isn't whining to point that out. It's also not whining to point out that BYU stopped Utah 2x in that same drive. The first time they got the ball back, it was legit. The second time, it was a gift from the referee.
> 
> You Ute fans can watch and see how well independence treats BYU. You can watch and see how the ESPN contract will make BYU's program even better. *You Ute fans can talk about Southwest Culinary Institute on ESPNU on Wed. at 10 p.m. but it must hurt to know that ESPN will pay more to show that game than it will to show USC at Utah.*
> 
> There is no pleasing Utefan. If BYU had stayed in the MWC, we would basically now be in the WAC playing more of the same teams that you are criticizing us for playing now. I ask all Ute fans complaining about our schedule: *who are we supposed to play when schedules are determined 5-6 years out?* What is BYU supposed to do with a year's advanced notice? Every other team has already scheduled their seasons for the next 5 years. Contracts are signed. What do you want?
> 
> *Conference championships are meaningless as are the bowl games. They are toilet paper. Conference championships in BCS conferences mean a BCS game but everywhere else they do nothing. A conference championship in a BCS conference means your team makes a lot more money. Well, guess what. BYU is going to be making 1000% more money next year than it made this year. While Utah is handing it's money hand over fist to USC and UCLA in order to sit at the big boy table, BYU will be bringing that money to Provo. *
> 
> You said it all right here: "a 500 Utah team in the PAC will still feel satisfied with any type of win over BYU." That sure seems like a lot of respect from Utah for a team that supposedly gets "no respect."


I bolded the parts I question as being constructive. There was nothing but sour grapes in most of your post.... and if you want respect for BYU, I'll tell you right up front that stuff like that is why you don't find much, especially coming from Utah fans.


----------



## mm73

Make no mistake about it, BYU would trade places with Utah and go to the PAC 12 in a heartbeat if they could. Independence was Plan C, and the Big 12 was Plan B. Just keeping it real fellow Cougar fans.


----------



## Riverrat77

mm73 said:


> Make no mistake about it, BYU would trade places with Utah and go to the PAC 12 in a heartbeat if they could. Independence was Plan C, and the Big 12 was Plan B. Just keeping it real fellow Cougar fans.


See, now stuff like this with you and Gary is the real deal.... and I'll go one further or put another point out there that even though Utah is going to a big conference, they won't see BCS games for a while yet. Having a discussion is one thing... slinging baseless points of view against an opposing school is quite fun but something completely different than having a constructive discussion. Its sad when some feel it only works one way....

I think it was the prophet that said, "Dish not the sour grapes of discontent, lest ye be fed your own dish of bitterness".

Ok, I totally made that up but it was still pretty **** good for spur of the moment.


----------



## Dodger

Riverrat77 said:


> And your comments were constructive in what way? Is it only constructive if I agree with you? Call me destructive then if it suits you because while I was mostly poking fun at your post, I really don't agree with most of it and I do consider it a lot of whining because things just didn't go your way.


So you admit that your post wasn't constructive. You don't have to agree with me, but you should want to be reasonable.

I also don't see that pointing out that the call was incorrect is whining. If I had said that the game was stolen or that the refs were biased, that would be whining. I did nothing of the sort. Are you saying that no one can point out the call was wrong without whining?



Dodger said:


> :lol: The call was clearly blown. It isn't whining to point that out. It's also not whining to point out that BYU stopped Utah 2x in that same drive. The first time they got the ball back, it was legit. The second time, it was a gift from the referee.
> 
> You Ute fans can watch and see how well independence treats BYU. You can watch and see how the ESPN contract will make BYU's program even better. *You Ute fans can talk about Southwest Culinary Institute on ESPNU on Wed. at 10 p.m. but it must hurt to know that ESPN will pay more to show that game than it will to show USC at Utah.*


That's a fact. It's not sour grapes and it is in direct response to your assertion that BYU will lack SOS due to independence. I say that if you think BYU lacks SOS then why will ESPN pay more to show the games? How is that not constructive?



Dodger said:


> There is no pleasing Utefan. If BYU had stayed in the MWC, we would basically now be in the WAC playing more of the same teams that you are criticizing us for playing now. I ask all Ute fans complaining about our schedule: *who are we supposed to play when schedules are determined 5-6 years out?* What is BYU supposed to do with a year's advanced notice? Every other team has already scheduled their seasons for the next 5 years. Contracts are signed. What do you want?
> 
> *Conference championships are meaningless as are the bowl games. They are toilet paper. Conference championships in BCS conferences mean a BCS game but everywhere else they do nothing. A conference championship in a BCS conference means your team makes a lot more money. Well, guess what. BYU is going to be making 1000% more money next year than it made this year. While Utah is handing it's money hand over fist to USC and UCLA in order to sit at the big boy table, BYU will be bringing that money to Provo. *


How is that sour grapes when Utah didn't win the conference either? What does winning a conference championship have to do with anything in the MWC? It's like getting the least crap on you in a crap throwing contest.

HND said BYU's independence meant they wouldn't be playing for a conference championship. I ask why that matters and provide reasoning. How is that not constructive?



Riverrat77 said:


> I bolded the parts I question as being constructive. There was nothing but sour grapes in most of your post.... and if you want respect for BYU, I'll tell you right up front that stuff like that is why you don't find much, especially coming from Utah fans.


A lecture on respect from Ute fans? Is that why Sitake has to jump in front of people or why it's ok to throw beer on BYU fans? Please.


----------



## Dodger

Riverrat77 said:


> mm73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Make no mistake about it, BYU would trade places with Utah and go to the PAC 12 in a heartbeat if they could. Independence was Plan C, and the Big 12 was Plan B. Just keeping it real fellow Cougar fans.
> 
> 
> 
> See, now stuff like this with you and Gary is the real deal.... and I'll go one further or put another point out there that even though Utah is going to a big conference, they won't see BCS games for a while yet. Having a discussion is one thing... slinging baseless points of view against an opposing school is quite fun but something completely different than having a constructive discussion. Its sad when some feel it only works one way....
Click to expand...

What are you talking about?



Riverrat77 said:


> I think it was the prophet that said, "Dish not the sour grapes of discontent, lest ye be fed your own dish of bitterness".
> 
> Ok, I totally made that up but it was still pretty **** good for spur of the moment.


More of that respect you mentioned?


----------



## Riverrat77

No... more of the lack of respect you keep earning the more you try and cover your tracks. :roll:



Dodger said:


> A lecture on respect from Ute fans? Is that why Sitake has to jump in front of people or why it's ok to throw beer on BYU fans? Please.


Quit trying so hard.... you're failing miserably. If you weren't looking so hard for respect from Ute fans, you'd realize that my post picking out bits and pieces of your novel was meant as poking fun, smart alecky comments that weren't to be taken seriously... but I'm not surprised in the least that you came unglued about it. :roll: And honestly... when has it not been ok to throw beer on BYU fans? Man... catch up... this isn't pattycake... its a college football rivalry. :?


----------



## jahan

Dodger said:


> You Ute fans can watch and see how well independence treats BYU. You can watch and see how the ESPN contract will make BYU's program even better. *You Ute fans can talk about Southwest Culinary Institute on ESPNU on Wed. at 10 p.m. but it must hurt to know that ESPN will pay more to show that game than it will to show USC at Utah.*


That's a fact. It's not sour grapes and it is in direct response to your assertion that BYU will lack SOS due to independence. I say that if you think BYU lacks SOS then why will ESPN pay more to show the games? How is that not constructive?

[/quote]

How is that a fact? Utah will make way more in the PAC-12 TV contract than BYU will. I am just trying to figure out how you consider this a fact. Just because you say it is so doesn't make it a fact.

Now as far as the call I have already said it was a bad call, but Dodger you would be the first one to call me out if the situation was reversed. If BYU had gotten away with a call and I complained about it you would call me out. It is unfortunate that we have to even discuss a botched call, I would of been much happier to win outright without any controversy, but Utah was fortunate to win that game, BYU played better for most of the game.

I wish BYU the best in Independence, but if a BIG-12 position became available they would be stupid to pass up that opportunity.


----------



## Dodger

Riverrat77 said:


> No... more of the lack of respect you keep earning the more you try and cover your tracks. :roll:


I'm backtracking? You said I wasn't being constructive, I showed otherwise.



Dodger said:


> A lecture on respect from Ute fans? Is that why Sitake has to jump in front of people or why it's ok to throw beer on BYU fans? Please.





Riverrat77 said:


> Quit trying so hard.... you're failing miserably. If you weren't looking so hard for respect from Ute fans, you'd realize that my post picking out bits and pieces of your novel was meant as poking fun, smart alecky comments that weren't to be taken seriously... but I'm not surprised in the least that you came unglued about it. :roll: And honestly... when has it not been ok to throw beer on BYU fans? Man... catch up... this isn't pattycake... its a college football rivalry. :?


I was trying to have a discussion. I asked a legit question. You added nothing to it but "smart alecky comments that weren't to be taken seriously" and then you come "unglued" about it when I called you on it.

I guess it is easy to just pick and choose comments to snipe instead of responding to the substance.


----------



## Riverrat77

Dodger said:


> So you admit that your post wasn't constructive. You don't have to agree with me, but you should want to be reasonable.No... it wasn't constructive and was never meant to be. However, given your inability to consider anything other than complete devotion to the Y less than a capital offense, I'm not surprised that you're upset over this but you really need to get over it.
> 
> I also don't see that pointing out that the call was incorrect is whining. If I had said that the game was stolen or that the refs were biased, that would be whining. I did nothing of the sort. Are you saying that no one can point out the call was wrong without whining? No, pointing out that you think the call was blown isn't whining.... bringing it up in 50 out of 51 posts (oh yeah, thats called an exaggeration) knowing that the game didn't rely on that one call to be won or lost yet insisting on pointing out that the call was "blown" is whining.
> 
> 
> 
> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a fact. It's not sour grapes and it is in direct response to your assertion that BYU will lack SOS due to independence. I say that if you think BYU lacks SOS then why will ESPN pay more to show the games? How is that not constructive?
> 
> 
> 
> The sour grapes portion is the hilarious commentary that you think BYU is getting so much more money for games nobody will watch when the game where Utah plays USC will be shown on ABC in every house with a tv which usually carries USC games while ESPNU is a cable channel that not everyone will have. Ratings equal revenue... and BYU won't get them for ESPN by playing a no name school or a weak schedule late at night.... but keep trying to make it sound all sorts of awesome. They may get a base amount just for allowing themselves to be shuffled to the back of the bus but as far as driving ratings, they are once again going to take a back seat to Utah games being shown on more readily available channels.
> 
> 
> 
> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Conference championships are meaningless as are the bowl games. They are toilet paper. Conference championships in BCS conferences mean a BCS game but everywhere else they do nothing. A conference championship in a BCS conference means your team makes a lot more money. Well, guess what. BYU is going to be making 1000% more money next year than it made this year. While Utah is handing it's money hand over fist to USC and UCLA in order to sit at the big boy table, BYU will be bringing that money to Provo. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're right that in the MWC, conference championships don't matter much at all... so why bring up conference championships unless you're just trying and failing miserably to discredit Utah for going to a conference that has a championship game at the end of the year? Of course BYU won't get a championship game... nobody wants them around as part of their conference and if they stayed in the MWC to help create a "conference championship" situation, I guarantee that all of a sudden you would think conference championships were the best thing since college football started being played, even though with the new additions BYU probably wouldn't be in the running for the championship anyway. :roll: I also didn't see anyone trying to make a point about Utah having anything to do with winning the conference this year either... so I'm not sure I know or even you know where you were going with that tangent.
> 
> HND said BYU's independence meant they wouldn't be playing for a conference championship. I ask why that matters and provide reasoning. How is that not constructive? No... you're incorrect. You didn't ask why.... you proceded to sling mud at conference championship games with absolutely no justification and it wasn't hard to draw the the conclusion that your rant about Utah going to a conference with a championship game situation was only because of BYU being independent and having absolutely no shot of BCS aspirations through being allowed to play a conference championship game. That sir, defines "sour grapes". Hating on somebody else for you being in a situation of your own making is about the best example of sour grapes I can think of.
> 
> 
> 
> Riverrat77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bolded the parts I question as being constructive. There was nothing but sour grapes in most of your post.... and if you want respect for BYU, I'll tell you right up front that stuff like that is why you don't find much, especially coming from Utah fans.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A lecture on respect from Ute fans? Is that why Sitake has to jump in front of people or why it's ok to throw beer on BYU fans? Please.
Click to expand...

Please excuse the lecture... its clear that your inability to understand satire and sarcasm is leading to this lack of respect you seem to feel from my poking holes in your post. I guess actually, in my case at least, there is a complete lack of respect for all things BYU and here recently, it stems from most BYU fans inability to realize that independence doesn't automatically guarantee that you're anything other than the rich kid sitting by themselves in the corner because nobody else can stand them. I guess if thats what you're looking for in a football program, great, then you just hit the jackpot.


----------



## Riverrat77

Dodger said:


> I guess it is easy to just pick and choose comments to snipe instead of responding to the substance.


When you make it this easy... yes, you are correct. Your post would have to have something of substance to it other than bitter personal posturing for me to seriously respond to it. At this point, its all humor to me.

We get it... you think BYU got screwed on a call and it cost them the game. You're wrong, but its your right to believe you might actually have a point, even if the rest of us don't think so. 8) I understand that you believe independence will propel BYU to historical levels of greatness and that you feel Utah has made a mistake by going to the Pac 12 where they won't automatically become champions. I guess thats an easy point of view to take when you're the only champion in your league of 1. You're wrong once again, but I'll let you live in your delusions because God forbid I don't actually show BYU the respect that you crave for those poor guys. :lol:


----------



## orvis1

o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| 


This is getting good..


----------



## Riverrat77

orvis1 said:


> o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-||
> 
> This is getting good..


Quit hogging the **** popcorn... jeez, you're like a BYU coed grabbing the last five pieces of cornbread out of the pan at Golden Corral.... you flaxen haired moose. :lol:


----------



## Dodger

Riverrat77 said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you admit that your post wasn't constructive. You don't have to agree with me, but you should want to be reasonable.No... it wasn't constructive and was never meant to be. However, given your inability to consider anything other than complete devotion to the Y less than a capital offense, I'm not surprised that you're upset over this but you really need to get over it.
> 
> You are reading what you want to read instead of actually reading what I wrote. I criticized more than a few things in the way BYU played the game. You just hate BYU too much to acknowledge anything positive in the way they played or in their program. You aren't interested in BYU, you are interested in hating BYU. That's petty and childish.
> 
> I also don't see that pointing out that the call was incorrect is whining. If I had said that the game was stolen or that the refs were biased, that would be whining. I did nothing of the sort. Are you saying that no one can point out the call was wrong without whining? No, pointing out that you think the call was blown isn't whining.... bringing it up in 50 out of 51 posts (oh yeah, thats called an exaggeration) knowing that the game didn't rely on that one call to be won or lost yet insisting on pointing out that the call was "blown" is whining.
> 
> Again, you are attributing comments to me that I never said. Did the outcome rely on the one call? No. I have said that repeatedly. But, it did significantly influence the outcome so as to at least call the result into question. I posted the video and the time index. You can see it all, plain as day. You just will not admit it because you are blinded by hate for BYU. Show me your alternative. Use the same video show me the time index. Seriously, you sound like a tattling 4-year old.
> 
> 
> 
> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a fact. It's not sour grapes and it is in direct response to your assertion that BYU will lack SOS due to independence. I say that if you think BYU lacks SOS then why will ESPN pay more to show the games? How is that not constructive?
> 
> 
> 
> The sour grapes portion is the hilarious commentary that you think BYU is getting so much more money for games nobody will watch when the game where Utah plays USC will be shown on ABC in every house with a tv which usually carries USC games while ESPNU is a cable channel that not everyone will have. Ratings equal revenue... and BYU won't get them for ESPN by playing a no name school or a weak schedule late at night.... but keep trying to make it sound all sorts of awesome. They may get a base amount just for allowing themselves to be shuffled to the back of the bus but as far as driving ratings, they are once again going to take a back seat to Utah games being shown on more readily available channels.
> 
> The terms of the deal between BYU and ESPN are $1.25 mil/game. BYU got 1.25/mil for the season from the Mountain. BYU will make 1000% more next year than it did this year. Facts.
> 
> Utah is paying to play USC and UCLA through 2014. Fact. That's not sour grapes. That's Utah selling its soul to play in the PAC. Even if ratings = revenue, as you suggest, it's not revenue when you give it all back to the teams in L.A. Good luck with that deal.
> 
> 
> 
> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Conference championships are meaningless as are the bowl games. They are toilet paper. Conference championships in BCS conferences mean a BCS game but everywhere else they do nothing. A conference championship in a BCS conference means your team makes a lot more money. Well, guess what. BYU is going to be making 1000% more money next year than it made this year. While Utah is handing it's money hand over fist to USC and UCLA in order to sit at the big boy table, BYU will be bringing that money to Provo. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're right that in the MWC, conference championships don't matter much at all... so why bring up conference championships unless you're just trying and failing miserably to discredit Utah for going to a conference that has a championship game at the end of the year? Of course BYU won't get a championship game... nobody wants them around as part of their conference and if they stayed in the MWC to help create a "conference championship" situation, I guarantee that all of a sudden you would think conference championships were the best thing since college football started being played, even though with the new additions BYU probably wouldn't be in the running for the championship anyway. :roll: I also didn't see anyone trying to make a point about Utah having anything to do with winning the conference this year either... so I'm not sure I know or even you know where you were going with that tangent.
> 
> It may surprise you to know this but saying that I don't care if BYU plays for a conference championship has nothing to do with Utah. I'll say this slowly because I know it is a difficult concept for you to understand but, just . . . because . . . someone . . . says . . . something . . . good . . . about . . . BYU . . . doesn't . . . mean . . . someone . . . is . . . saying . . . something . . . bad . . . about . . . Utah. Clear enough?
> 
> You are wrong. My opinion of conference championships would be unchanged. BYU has won plenty of them and, still, no one cares. Period.
> 
> You see it as no one wants BYU in the conference. I see it as BYU not accepting table scraps to play with the big kids.
> 
> HND said BYU's independence meant they wouldn't be playing for a conference championship. I ask why that matters and provide reasoning. How is that not constructive? No... you're incorrect. You didn't ask why.... you proceded to sling mud at conference championship games with absolutely no justification and it wasn't hard to draw the the conclusion that your rant about Utah going to a conference with a championship game situation was only because of BYU being independent and having absolutely no shot of BCS aspirations through being allowed to play a conference championship game. That sir, defines "sour grapes". Hating on somebody else for you being in a situation of your own making is about the best example of sour grapes I can think of.
> 
> You are reading what you want to read and projecting it on me. See the part above, with reference to the slow kids.
> 
> I said that conference championships mean a BCS berth in a previous post. But no one cares about the conference championship itself. They care about the bowl, and the money that comes from it. The actual conference title is meaningless. No one cares.
> 
> 
> 
> Riverrat77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bolded the parts I question as being constructive. There was nothing but sour grapes in most of your post.... and if you want respect for BYU, I'll tell you right up front that stuff like that is why you don't find much, especially coming from Utah fans.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A lecture on respect from Ute fans? Is that why Sitake has to jump in front of people or why it's ok to throw beer on BYU fans? Please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please excuse the lecture... its clear that your inability to understand satire and sarcasm is leading to this lack of respect you seem to feel from my poking holes in your post. I guess actually, in my case at least, there is a complete lack of respect for all things BYU and here recently, it stems from most BYU fans inability to realize that independence doesn't automatically guarantee that you're anything other than the rich kid sitting by themselves in the corner because nobody else can stand them. I guess if thats what you're looking for in a football program, great, then you just hit the jackpot.
> 
> Are you really turning this into a "cool kids" vs. "uncool kids" issue? No one has said that independence automatically guarantees anything. In fact, all this whining about it implies that you are pretty threatened about it all. Poor little brother.
> 
> It isn't sarcasm and satire RR. It is the fact that you just can't see anything less than complete hate of BYU as a capitol offense. Go be with the cool kids in the PAC. Give them your lunch money so you can fit in and be cool. It fits in with the tattling 4 year-old motif.
Click to expand...


----------



## Dodger

Riverrat77 said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it is easy to just pick and choose comments to snipe instead of responding to the substance.
> 
> 
> 
> When you make it this easy... yes, you are correct. Your post would have to have something of substance to it other than bitter personal posturing for me to seriously respond to it. At this point, its all humor to me.
> 
> We get it... you think BYU got screwed on a call and it cost them the game. You're wrong, but its your right to believe you might actually have a point, even if the rest of us don't think so. 8) I understand that you believe independence will propel BYU to historical levels of greatness and that you feel Utah has made a mistake by going to the Pac 12 where they won't automatically become champions. I guess thats an easy point of view to take when you're the only champion in your league of 1. You're wrong once again, but I'll let you live in your delusions because God forbid I don't actually show BYU the respect that you crave for those poor guys. :lol:
Click to expand...

The "rest of us?" Who's that? Cause I saw lines of people disputing the post and time index 2 pages ago. :roll: I haven't seen any Ute fan say the call was right. They just say it was the call. It was. But, if you are trying to say that it didn't significantly change the game, you're being dishonest. You and your cool friends can sit around and agree with yourselves.

Why do you insist on telling me what I think? I've told you what I think. I don't think Utah made a mistake by going to the PAC. That's just dishonest to attribute that kind of comment to me. I didn't say that at all. I think Utah got a terrible deal from the PAC and I think they could have gotten a better one. But, Utah doesn't have the chops to go independent. So, it was probably the best deal they could have gotten.

I think independence is a good deal for BYU. I think it has the potential to really pay off. Some things will improve, some will be more difficult. Time will tell.

That's the difference between us. I can wish the Utes the best of luck in the PAC because I'm not little brother with an inferiority complex. You've always gotten stuck living up to the benchmark set by big brother.

We'll head off to Harvard while you guys enjoy community college with the cool kids . . . dude. :lol:


----------



## Riverrat77

Dodger said:


> The "rest of us?" Who's that? Cause I saw lines of people disputing the post and time index 2 pages ago. :roll: I haven't seen any Ute fan say the call was right. They just say it was the call. It was. But, if you are trying to say that it didn't significantly change the game, you're being dishonest. You and your cool friends can sit around and agree with yourselves.
> 
> Why do you insist on telling me what I think? I've told you what I think. I don't think Utah made a mistake by going to the PAC. That's just dishonest to attribute that kind of comment to me. I didn't say that at all. I think Utah got a terrible deal from the PAC and I think they could have gotten a better one. But, Utah doesn't have the chops to go independent. So, it was probably the best deal they could have gotten.
> 
> I think independence is a good deal for BYU. I think it has the potential to really pay off. Some things will improve, some will be more difficult. Time will tell.
> 
> That's the difference between us. I can wish the Utes the best of luck in the PAC because I'm not little brother with an inferiority complex. You've always gotten stuck living up to the benchmark set by big brother.
> 
> We'll head off to Harvard while you guys enjoy community college with the cool kids . . . dude. :lol:


It *may* have been significant, but it didn't cost the game... not even close. FAIL. Yes... I'm talking to you.

You've told us what you think but refuse to admit the very transparent reasoning behind your posts. Its not, as you would have us all believe, just for the glorification of BYU. For the record, BYU hasn't won ANY conference championship games in football.... and championship games is what you were spouting off about. Hard to win one when you've never been in one (WAC OR MWC).... might need to start getting used to that idea.... Get it right when you bring a rebuttal because to do otherwise weakens your already flimsy position. :roll: The point is, and you've clearly tried to hide this in your weak responses, you wouldn't have said ONE WORD about conference championships if you weren't referencing Utah and their move to the Pac 12 in your post. Deny it all you want, and I'll call a spade a spade and tell you you're full of crap. 8) If you were just about giving BYU credit, you wouldn't have even felt the need to badmouth conference championship games and oddly enough, I don't hear you complaining about them when we have one in basketball or any of the other sports.... just football, the one sport your beloved Cougars won't get to play in with the rest of their pals in the might WCC. Yeah, hows that for respect? :roll:

Like I said before, I'd rather hav to give up part of my earnings for an auto bid for a national championship than get paid to basically get out of the way so the rest of the relevant teams in the country can play games people actually want to watch. About the call, nobody is bitching about it being right or wrong.... but we're tired of hearing about it from whiners like you who can't let it go, even though it didn't decide the final outcome of the game. Because you can't handle the fact that Utah won the game though, we'll have to keep hearing "that was a blown call" until Utah kills BYU next year. Like Jahan said, tables are turned and all we'd be hearing from you is how that call doesn't matter and Ute fan shouldn't be bugged by it. Welcome to the realization that your argument is convenient at best.

Its not that Utah doesn't have the chops to go independent, its that they didn't NEED to go independent because nobody else would take them. Even stout BYU supporter MM73 acknowledged this... yet you won't. Hmmm who is the one not admitting reality here? For BYU having the chops to go independent, they sure lobbied hard to get into other conferences before making that choice. Its desperation, plain and simple, certainly not a calculated manuever to better their athletic standing... it was their ONLY way to make a peep and gain a little more income. Other than that, it has accomplished NOTHING for their programs.

I think based on your arguments presented here, your claim that you're wishing the Utes well in the Pac 12 is laughable and ridiculous. You're the antithesis of "wishing your opponent well", especially when every post you make contains digs at utah for one thing or another. "Little brother having to live up to the benchmark set by big brother", "conference championship games are toilet paper and meaningless, as are the bowl games", "Utah is handing over money to USC and UCLA to sit at the big boy table".... oh wow, how will the Utes ever thank you for your mountains of support? :roll: People like you are probably a big reason Ute fan won't look back and wish we were still in the MWC. Utah is going on to bigger and better things, while BYU goes off and pouts in obscurity... oh man, way to one up the "little brother". Jesus, what a ridiculous line of thought. Don't forget your helmet when you take the short bus to nowhereville.


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## STEVO

IN regards to the call....... Im still not completely convinced that it was a "bad call" Everybody keeps on talking about how his knee was down, but there was not one replay they showed at any point where it was clear that he still had full possession. Looking at the replay, the ball clearly is in another position from the frame where his knee was not down, compared to the frame where his knee was down, and the fact that you could see the full front of the ball, I think that alone shows that he might not have had full possession when he was down. Either way, It was a good game and the Utes are lucky to get this one I agree.......but like I said I didnt see indisputable evidence that he had control and thats why it wasnt reversed!!!!


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## HighNDry

I just can't read all this long jibberish anymore. Can we try to use economy of words?
Start with this: UTAH 17 BYU 16
Nice close game.


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## Dodger

Riverrat77 said:


> It *may* have been significant, but it didn't cost the game... not even close. FAIL. Yes... I'm talking to you.
> 
> May? May? A turnover that gave Utah the ball back on the BYU 30ish yardline? That's flat dishonest.
> 
> You've told us what you think but refuse to admit the very transparent reasoning behind your posts. Its not, as you would have us all believe, just for the glorification of BYU. For the record, BYU hasn't won ANY conference championship games in football.... and championship games is what you were spouting off about. Hard to win one when you've never been in one (WAC OR MWC).... might need to start getting used to that idea.... Get it right when you bring a rebuttal because to do otherwise weakens your already flimsy position. :roll: The point is, and you've clearly tried to hide this in your weak responses, you wouldn't have said ONE WORD about conference championships if you weren't referencing Utah and their move to the Pac 12 in your post. Deny it all you want, and I'll call a spade a spade and tell you you're full of crap. 8) If you were just about giving BYU credit, you wouldn't have even felt the need to badmouth conference championship games and oddly enough, I don't hear you complaining about them when we have one in basketball or any of the other sports.... just football, the one sport your beloved Cougars won't get to play in with the rest of their pals in the might WCC. Yeah, hows that for respect? :roll:
> 
> I do deny it and you have no basis to say I'm lying. HND said that BYU wouldn't play for conference championships. I say that playing or a conference championship doesn't mean anything so BYU isn't missing out on anything. It had nothing to do with Utah. I explained that to you, slowly. You just can't help projecting your own insecurities.
> 
> Has BYU won conference championships in Football? Yes. I don't know how you can say otherwise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_West_Conference
> 
> A share of the title in 99-00 season.
> Outright 01-02
> 06-07
> 07-08
> 
> They won plenty in the WAC too.
> 
> I don't care about other sports. Look at my history. After football season last year, I didn't come back until this year's football season.
> 
> Like I said before, I'd rather hav to give up part of my earnings for an auto bid for a national championship than get paid to basically get out of the way so the rest of the relevant teams in the country can play games people actually want to watch. About the call, nobody is bitching about it being right or wrong.... but we're tired of hearing about it from whiners like you who can't let it go, even though it didn't decide the final outcome of the game. Because you can't handle the fact that Utah won the game though, we'll have to keep hearing "that was a blown call" until Utah kills BYU next year. Like Jahan said, tables are turned and all we'd be hearing from you is how that call doesn't matter and Ute fan shouldn't be bugged by it. Welcome to the realization that your argument is convenient at best.
> 
> That's up to you. Utah made that decision to give up their wallet to play with the cool kids. Those are choices we make.
> 
> If you are tired of hearing about the call, then quit talking about it. Quit bringing it up. I don't know how many times I've told you that BYU made mistakes in that game. You don't seem to be understanding, even when I slow it down. If the tables were turned, I certainly wouldn't be proud of the win. I would say BYU was lucky to have gotten out of that one and that it was an ugly win.
> 
> Unlike you, I can find a balance between being reasonable and advocating for my team. You just hate BYU no matter what. All you have is a lot of hypothetical and a lot of supposition. You have no facts, no evidence. Don't tell me what I would do or what my response was be. As you've already shown, above, you'd be wrong.
> 
> Its not that Utah doesn't have the chops to go independent, its that they didn't NEED to go independent because nobody else would take them. Even stout BYU supporter MM73 acknowledged this... yet you won't. Hmmm who is the one not admitting reality here? For BYU having the chops to go independent, they sure lobbied hard to get into other conferences before making that choice. Its desperation, plain and simple, certainly not a calculated manuever to better their athletic standing... it was their ONLY way to make a peep and gain a little more income. Other than that, it has accomplished NOTHING for their programs.
> 
> Again, lots of supposition, lots of hypothetical, no proof. Utah sold itself to the cool kids. It didn't need to go independent, I never said it did. But, even if it did "need" to, it doesn't have the infrastructure in place to do it. Local program, local following, local market. MM73 can take whatever position he likes. So can you. It doesn't make you right.
> 
> Desperation . . . ha! Is that like being so desperate that you are willing to sell your soul to play with the big kids?
> 
> I think based on your arguments presented here, your claim that you're wishing the Utes well in the Pac 12 is laughable and ridiculous. You're the antithesis of "wishing your opponent well", especially when every post you make contains digs at utah for one thing or another. "Little brother having to live up to the benchmark set by big brother", "conference championship games are toilet paper and meaningless, as are the bowl games", "Utah is handing over money to USC and UCLA to sit at the big boy table".... oh wow, how will the Utes ever thank you for your mountains of support? :roll: People like you are probably a big reason Ute fan won't look back and wish we were still in the MWC. Utah is going on to bigger and better things, while BYU goes off and pouts in obscurity... oh man, way to one up the "little brother". Jesus, what a ridiculous line of thought. Don't forget your helmet when you take the short bus to nowhereville.
> 
> Well, I hope you get a good laugh. I do wish the Utes well in the PAC. I don't hate the Utes, I have nothing against them. I want BYU to win the yearly game but I don't care what happens to Utah on any other Saturday. Just because I think they made a terrible deal in going to the PAC doesn't mean I want to see them fail.
> 
> No one wants to be in the MWC. The Mtn is a terrible deal. You think Utah's deal with the PAC is bigger and better. Time will tell. Baylor and Vanderbilt thought the same in their conferences. I think Independence is a good deal for BYU. Time will tell.
> 
> Good luck in community college with the cool kids.


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## Dodger

STEVO said:


> IN regards to the call....... Im still not completely convinced that it was a "bad call" Everybody keeps on talking about how his knee was down, but there was not one replay they showed at any point where it was clear that he still had full possession. Looking at the replay, the ball clearly is in another position from the frame where his knee was not down, compared to the frame where his knee was down, and the fact that you could see the full front of the ball, I think that alone shows that he might not have had full possession when he was down. Either way, It was a good game and the Utes are lucky to get this one I agree.......but like I said I didnt see indisputable evidence that he had control and thats why it wasnt reversed!!!!


Look at my post on page 6. Follow the time index. He's down at 1:03. You can see the ball. Ute player pulls on the ball at 1:04. Ball comes out at 1:05.

As an aside, since I have access to a number of uninterested third party people, (I asked 5) they all agreed he was down.


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## Dodger

HighNDry said:


> I just can't read all this long jibberish anymore. Can we try to use economy of words?
> Start with this: UTAH 17 BYU 16
> Nice close game.


It was an exciting game. Utah came through when it needed to and got the help when it needed it.


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## STEVO

Dodger said:


> STEVO said:
> 
> 
> 
> IN regards to the call....... Im still not completely convinced that it was a "bad call" Everybody keeps on talking about how his knee was down, but there was not one replay they showed at any point where it was clear that he still had full possession. Looking at the replay, the ball clearly is in another position from the frame where his knee was not down, compared to the frame where his knee was down, and the fact that you could see the full front of the ball, I think that alone shows that he might not have had full possession when he was down. Either way, It was a good game and the Utes are lucky to get this one I agree.......but like I said I didnt see indisputable evidence that he had control and thats why it wasnt reversed!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Look at my post on page 6. Follow the time index. He's down at 1:03. You can see the ball. Ute player pulls on the ball at 1:04. Ball comes out at 1:05.
> 
> As an aside, since I have access to a number of uninterested third party people, (I asked 5) they all agreed he was down.
Click to expand...

Surely you can find a better video than the one you posted that shows a KSL banner on the bottom instead of his knee on the ground. Check out this one.....






Look right at 1:28 ....... Its the best camera and video available. If you look right as the ref's leg passes by, you can see the football, doesnt look to me like he has complete control, and unfortunately the refs leg was in the way of the players knee on the ground. They clearly keep circling his knee a good second or so after the ball appears to be coming out. Whether it was a good call or not, I dont know, but I can see exactly why they didnt reverse their call. The ball looks to be in a bad position for the guy to have control. The angle they keep showing from behind the player when his knee goes down is irrelevent because you cant see the ball.

Good call or not, it was a good game when the utes decided to show up for the last quarter or so!!!


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## Riverrat77

STEVO said:


> Surely you can find a better video than the one you posted that shows a KSL banner on the bottom instead of his knee on the ground. Check out this one.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look right at 1:28 ....... Its the best camera and video available. If you look right as the ref's leg passes by, you can see the football, doesnt look to me like he has complete control, and unfortunately the refs leg was in the way of the players knee on the ground. They clearly keep circling his knee a good second or so after the ball appears to be coming out. Whether it was a good call or not, I dont know, but I can see exactly why they didnt reverse their call. The ball looks to be in a bad position for the guy to have control. The angle they keep showing from behind the player when his knee goes down is irrelevent because you cant see the ball.
> 
> Good call or not, it was a good game when the utes decided to show up for the last quarter or so!!!


Don't waste your time man... he hates the U, can't give them credit for showing up when they needed to but isn't as honest about it as I am with my hatred of the Y. Some people just can't handle being exposed. You know **** well if it was a call going the other way, he and everyone else would be crowing about how great BYU played and scoreboard would be the only thing that matters....which is actually true. He says he won't bring it up again but oddly enough, he can't hack it when somebody disagrees that the call was really blown. Do they take the same short bus to Albuquerque that they're going to ride off into the "independent" sunset on? I don't know... but I'm out of this topic. I've said my piece, don't buy for one second that Dodger is anything but a bitter Y fan trying to make the best out of the "leftovers" situation BYU finds themself in and so he has to call into question anything positive the U has going for them. Utes won... and aren't saddled with BYU in their conference any longer... good enough for me. 8)


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## mm73

Riverrat77 said:


> Its not that Utah doesn't have the chops to go independent, its that they didn't NEED to go independent because nobody else would take them. Even stout BYU supporter MM73 acknowledged this... yet you won't. Hmmm who is the one not admitting reality here? For BYU having the chops to go independent, they sure lobbied hard to get into other conferences before making that choice. Its desperation, plain and simple, certainly not a calculated manuever to better their athletic standing... it was their ONLY way to make a peep and gain a little more income. Other than that, it has accomplished NOTHING for their programs.


RR, let me clarify my comments since you are using them to support your argument with Dodger and extending them beyond what I intended. Just because I said BYU would trade places with Utah to be in the PAC does not mean I think their decision to go indie was an act of desperation. I think BYU carefully studied ALL of their options and then just went down the list as their first and second choices fell through. They have been studying the independence option and preparing for it for years, and there is physical evidence to prove it. It was not a knee-jerk act of desperation as you are suggesting. It was merely their last best alternative to staying in the MWC with its crappy TV exposure, and paltry payout, after Utah left for greener pastures. And we will all have to wait to see whether or not it accomplishes anything for their athletic programs. BYU has already managed to schedule some very attractive series in football and the WCC is a very good basketball conference and will bring BYU a lot more exposure in some very fertile recruiting grounds, not to mention the fact that their basketball games will also now be carried by ESPN. You are making the same mistake as Dodger by making definitive statements about something that you have no way of knowing yet.


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## Riverrat77

Actually, I do think it was a knee jerk reaction.... they'd burned their bridges with the MWC, got exposed in their foiled plot to rejuvenate the WAC with Utah State when everyone from that conference left and the bid to join the Big 12 fell through when those schools circled the wagons against any changes. I think it was about the only option left for them to get a chance to even play ANYONE in football next year... but what do I know? I'm just a Y hater who can't see past that to other possibilities, right? If they had honestly considered independence as a viable option from the start with the big payout, I think they'd have done that first and not done everything else to try and get into another conference beforehand. I don't think it was well though out... at all... and now they're playing sports in basically a division II conference against teams half the nation probably doesn't even know exist, other than maybe Gonzaga in basketball. Its funny.... with all the comments about the Utes going to "community college" that they're the ones now affiliated with one of the best conferences in the country containing schools with ridiculously high academic standards as well as exceptional athletic programs yet BYU is going to hang with the West Coast Conference. Who lowered their standards just to get a game again? 8)


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## mm73

RR, they began laying the groundwork for independence at least two years ago when they began construction of their multi-million dollar HD broadcasting facility. The facility is almost complete and will be ready just in time for next season. Coincidence? And what about the ESPN contract, that coincidentally allows them to broadcast on BYUTV any game not picked up by ESPN, and rebroadcast the same day games that are. Are you suggesting that was negotiated at the 11th hour as well? You have no facts to support your conclusion that it was a knee jerk reaction, other than the fact that it came shortly after Utah's invitation to join the PAC. No doubt the timing of the decision to go forward with it was influenced by Utah's departure, and the decision to go to the WCC came about only after the WAC plan fell through, but there is plenty of physical evidence to demonstrate that this plan has been worked out over a longer period of time than you are willing to concede. Having said all that, only time will tell if it was a good decision. As Holmoe has stated, its success will depend on performance on the field. If they are successful on the field they will be successful with independence. ESPN will line up top tier opponents, and pay good money to broadcast them if BYU is good. If they are not good then they will be relegated to late Wednesday night games on ESPN2 against LSOP State. We shall see...


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## Dodger

Riverrat77 said:


> Don't waste your time man... he hates the U, can't give them credit for showing up when they needed to but isn't as honest about it as I am with my hatred of the Y. Some people just can't handle being exposed. You know **** well if it was a call going the other way, he and everyone else would be crowing about how great BYU played and scoreboard would be the only thing that matters....which is actually true. He says he won't bring it up again but oddly enough, he can't hack it when somebody disagrees that the call was really blown. Do they take the same short bus to Albuquerque that they're going to ride off into the "independent" sunset on? I don't know... but I'm out of this topic. I've said my piece, don't buy for one second that Dodger is anything but a bitter Y fan trying to make the best out of the "leftovers" situation BYU finds themself in and so he has to call into question anything positive the U has going for them. Utes won... and aren't saddled with BYU in their conference any longer... good enough for me. 8)


That's just dishonest RR. The first post in this thread after the game gave props to the U for the block.

As for calling into question anything positive the U has going for them, honestly, I don't care about the U any other time than one Saturday a year. Get over it. You just aren't that important. Take irrelevance with you to the PAC but make sure your wallet is open.


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## Dodger

mm73 said:


> You are making the same mistake as Dodger by making definitive statements about something that you have no way of knowing yet.


I think you need to re-read what I said. I don't know how many times I said "time will tell" or "I believe independence is good for BYU."


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## Dodger

STEVO said:


> Surely you can find a better video than the one you posted that shows a KSL banner on the bottom instead of his knee on the ground. Check out this one.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look right at 1:28 ....... Its the best camera and video available. If you look right as the ref's leg passes by, you can see the football, doesnt look to me like he has complete control, and unfortunately the refs leg was in the way of the players knee on the ground. They clearly keep circling his knee a good second or so after the ball appears to be coming out. Whether it was a good call or not, I dont know, but I can see exactly why they didnt reverse their call. The ball looks to be in a bad position for the guy to have control. The angle they keep showing from behind the player when his knee goes down is irrelevent because you cant see the ball.
> 
> Good call or not, it was a good game when the utes decided to show up for the last quarter or so!!!


Thanks for the better link. I was watching the KSL one in full screen, but this one is way better.

Ok, so at 1:28, he's down right?

At 1:29 the ball is jostled for the first time, it moves. It's very slight, but it moves. That's the first time the Ute player actually pulls on the ball.

I think it is clear that he still has possession up to that point. You can't really say that initial movement at 1:29 affects the control when the Ute player hasn't actually started pulling on the ball yet.

My point is that if control was lost and the Utah player thought the ball was truly "out," then why did he keep pulling on it? But, even so, he was still down before the ball moves, slightly, for the first time at 1:28.

If the Utah player pulls on the ball after the knee was out, the question becomes, did Bradley drop it or was he stripped. If he dropped it, he didn't do it until after he was down. And the Utah player couldn't have stripped the ball before he started pulling on it. That seems like irrefutable to me. What do you think?


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## mm73

Dodger said:


> mm73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are making the same mistake as Dodger by making definitive statements about something that you have no way of knowing yet.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to re-read what I said. I don't know how many times I said "time will tell" or "I believe independence is good for BYU."
Click to expand...

It was statements like the following that I was referring to, that don't help your case.



> Take irrelevance with you to the PAC


Utah may be overrated this year, but they are still far from irrelevant, and any honest BYU fan who has any college football IQ has to admit that in the last decade Utah was much more "relevant" than BYU. The Utes are Johnny Come Lately, but lately they have outclassed BYU and the Cougars have some catching up to do, which is only going to get harder with Utah going to a major conference with all the benefits and advantages that entails. Again, we shall see...


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## Dodger

Actually MM, if you look at that statement in context, you'll see that I was talking about my own perspective of the Utes, not the relevancy of the Utes.

"As for calling into question anything positive the U has going for them, honestly, I don't care about the U any other time than one Saturday a year. Get over it. You just aren't that important. Take irrelevance with you to the PAC but make sure your wallet is open."

In other words, I don't care about the Utes. My point was that I don't consider Utah every time I say something about BYU because Utah is irrelevant to me other than one Saturday a year.

I agree that the Utes have had a good stretch in the last decade. I agree that this is a step up for their program but the deal they made was atrocious. 

I think BYU will do well with independence. But, as I've said multiple times, time will tell.


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## coyoteslayer

HMMMMM


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## mm73

Dodger, I was not trying to pick on you specifically, or interject myself into the back-and-forth you were having with RR. I was just trying to encourage fellow BYU fans to give credit where credit is due. Utah has built a very good football program in the last few years, and BYU fans who refuse to acknowledge this, stubbornly clinging to the Cougar's past accomplishments in an effort to maintain some sense of superiority over the Utes just end up looking pathetic and bitter to everyone else. I am not saying you are one of those BYU fans. I am just talking about some BYU fans in general.


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## GaryFish

I am one that likes that the ute program is good. It has made the rivalry interesting, and made everyone more relevant. Where I have issue is utefan thinking they are WAAAAYYYYYYY better than the BYU program. Bottom line is that the programs are exceptionally well matched - as eviddenced by the split record under these coaching regimes. In that time, Utah has the big Sugar Bowl and undefeated season, but BYU has four-ten win seasons in a row. Utah is now riding three in a row - something they have never done. Forget about the 80s-90s for BYU. Under the direction of Coaches Whitt and Mendenhall, these programs are incredibly even. Both are moving UP from the MWC, but in different ways, which is good, as each have different missions. And both schools will be fine with the moves they made. 

I think Utah will be an intermitent competitor in the PAC - as are all schools in the PAC. That is not a slight on them. It is a respect given to that conference. Seldom does any one team dominate there. Look at Stanford this year - amazing. But next year they'll be 6-6. UW has won national titles from there, and is now in the tanker. 

I also think BYU will be an intermitent visitor to the top 10. When the team is junior/senior laden, they'll beat a big name early, and make a nice run. The ability to schedule whomever they can is a great thing. And the WAC contract ensures them pretty much 6 wins every year.

I also think that the club of teams that can compete for the national title year in and year out is a very small selection. Once you go outside the SEC, there is Ohio State, Texas/Oklahoma, USC, and anyone else that can/should be in the hunt every year? Not really. And we see right now that Texas that played in the title game last year won't make a bowl game this year. So teams go up and down. But overall, there is a hand full of teams that have the $100 millino + athletic budgets that comepete for the national title in most years. And neither BYU or Utah are those teams.


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