# Let's talk about whitetails



## nolaut (Jul 7, 2009)

Let's talk about whitetails and I'll be upfront and say I hope they are establishing themselves in Utah because they taste better, harder to hunt, and are a bit more tenacious than mule deer. 
So whats the problem not jabbing' but I read a lot of post that are apprehensive when it comes to "******"
And for full discloser I want all of the Utah whitetail info I can get :mrgreen:


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

You're joking when you say they are harder to hunt....right? :lol:


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

We've had several threads about whitetails in Utah. Check back through and you'll find them in the big game section.

My quick observations:
They are most established in the Cache Valley. But are moving along the Bear River corridor, Weber and Ogden River corridors, and also now around the Great Salt Lake. Sightings in the Heber Valley have occurred, as well as in Utah Valley, near Utah Lake. They are gradually expanding along both sides of the Wasatch as urban areas are encroaching into the traditional farmlands. And they seem to be doing well in these edge areas. 

As for apprehension to them - Those I've observed that are most vocal against them have never lived outside of Utah. It is believed among Utah Mule Deer hunters, that Whitetail will force mule deer from their traditional ranges and outcompete them for dwindling resources. And those that think they are so much easier to hunt than mule deer again, haven't lived elsewhere and actually hunted them. Most of those opinions are based on watching too many ******* whitetail hunting shows where the deer are shot out of permenant stands over baited fields. Other than that, just a general fear of the unknown. The other thing you'll see among Utah lifers, is they just really love chasing mule deer - something I have to respect. Those that love them so much, place great value in the lifetime quest of a 200" buck - one of the most rare of trophies - which makes them very difficult to hunt. 

I would agree - they tend to be better table fare than mule deer, but that is attributable more to diet - as mulies dine on sage and whitetails prefer the croplands, grasses, and richer bottomlands. 

I've lived and hunted in places with strong populations of both. I've seen the two species in the same herd of deer. And in those places, the mule deer are absolutely easier to hunt than the whitetails. I have nothing against them. I personally see them as filling in where development and human encroachment have pushed mule deer out.


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## Bergy (Apr 3, 2008)

Bowdacious said:


> You're joking when you say they are harder to hunt....right? :lol:


Bowdacious, before I started hunting whitetail I thought that getting a big whitetail would be easy, but after the past 10 years of hunting whitetails I will tell you this. While the terrain that whitetails generally occupy is not as physically demanding as mulies, big whitetails, like big mulies, are NOT dumb. As for table fare the whitetails that I have eaten are much better tasting than the mule deer that I have had, but I believe that is because they all have been eating out of corn fields and eating my flowers out of my garden at night :evil:


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Keep it pure!!!!!!!!
I have no desire to shoot a whitie. They do not appeal to me at all. I hope they do not establish strong populations in this state.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

I've eaten whitetail and it's tastey, but I would not say it beats muley. My biggest concern with them is the crossbreeding issue. Whitetail racks on mule deer bodies.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

Here is an interesting read, and it might shed some light on the whole subject. Are the whitetail mearly returning from near total devestation in the area or are they migrating as an expansion of their normal range?
https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/ojs/index.php/w ... e/276/1373


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> As for apprehension to them - Those I've observed that are most vocal against them have never lived outside of Utah. It is believed among Utah Mule Deer hunters, that Whitetail will force mule deer from their traditional ranges and outcompete them for dwindling resources. And those that think they are so much easier to hunt than mule deer again, haven't lived elsewhere and actually hunted them. Most of those opinions are based on watching too many ******* whitetail hunting shows where the deer are shot out of permenant stands over baited fields. Other than that, just a general fear of the unknown. The other thing you'll see among Utah lifers, is they just really love chasing mule deer - something I have to respect. Those that love them so much, place great value in the lifetime quest of a 200" buck - one of the most rare of trophies - which makes them very difficult to hunt.


Gary, comments like yours drive me crazy! I have lived outside and I am very vocal in my opposition of whitetails in Utah. They DO out compete muleys in many ways; the biggest is breeding. Whitetails are more aggressive and the likelihood of a whitetail buck breeding a mule deer is fairly high. Hybrids don't reproduce, and the mule deer doe has 'wasted' energy on a hybrid that won't be beneficial to the mule deer herd population. The odds of a mule deer buck breeding a whitetail doe are extremely low, added to whitetails being more likely to give birth to twins, and they have a major advantage over mule deer in regards to reproduction. With mule deer struggling already, I can see ZERO benefits to the mule deer with an increase in whitetails in Utah.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

Bergy said:


> Bowdacious said:
> 
> 
> > You're joking when you say they are harder to hunt....right? :lol:
> ...


A big deer of any breed isn't easy to get...that is why it is a "trophy". Yes the terrain of mule deer does make them harder to hunt but don't forget about patterning. From everything I've seen about white tail deer they are very very easy to pattern. So easy that perhaps you could set your watch by them. Mulies, on the other hand, are not as easy to pattern. Which is why taking a specific white tail deer is easy when compared with doing the exact same thing with a muley deer. It appears that any toothless, *******, mullet sportin', back woods, crazy, ugly, son-of-a-b*tch can sit in a tree stand and plug one of these critters with a bow. Sorry to offend anyone on this forum that associates themselves with having these great qualities previously mentioned. :wink: On the other hand, I think it is much harder for every TOM, DICK, and HARRY to fill an archery deer tag for mulies in Utah (as aparant by the archery success rate).

While there are many different opininons about white tail here in Utah, I for one like the fact that they aren't as prevelant as mule deer. I'd prefer to only hunt mule deer in Utah. Mule deer are bigger bodied and have bigger more impressive racks than white tail. So, I think they look better than an ugly whitie. As far as taste go...I think that the white tail population wouldn't taste too different from the mulies. They would be eating the same things and therefore taste the same. I personally have no qualms about the way my deer taste. I've never had one that was gamey or tasted like sage brush...but maybe that is all in how you care for your game.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Bowdacious...have you ever hunted whitetails?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

If you like hunting mule deer, whitetails are NOT welcome here. :evil:

I hear the argument,"Montana has both, why can't we?" Because Montana has a billion more huntable acres of habitat than we do. That's why. They can both exist up there because they don't really compete for the same turf that much.

If you wanna hunt a whitetail, go to a whitetail state like I did. Compared to the 30 deer per square mile we have, Georgia has about 200 deer per square mile comparatively. When you buy a tag down there it gives you ten doe tags and two buck tags. Plus, their season is almost three months long. Whitetails are the ****roach of the deer world.

Bucks like this one are a dime a dozen, and bigger ones are available if you hunt for them.









And BTW, they don't taste any better, they taste the same.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't think whitetails will ever be very prevalent in Utah. I'm sure there will always be a few around, and we will probably see an increase, but I really can't see them dominating the mule deer populations. 

I used to be under the impression that whitetails were easy to kill. I've also heard it said that a mule deer is a lot easier than a whitetail. Mule deer are open country critters. Whitetails are typically not open country critters. A lot more whitetails can live on an acre of land than a mule deer also. So you get in these states that have high populations of whitetail deer. There are a lot of them, and they are quite territorial, so you can sit in your stand and have deer walk by every day. It is very rare that you see someone spot and stalk hunt whitetail in these areas. It is very, very difficult because of the terrain. 

Come out west and try to sit in your tree stand and wait for a muley buck to walk by. It will happen eventually. Mule deer are creatures of habit as well. They can be patterned also. But there are far fewer animals compared to the amount of land, and they are not as territorial as whitetails. So it makes for a tough archery hunt. But it is always harder to get close to animals in open country.

In my opinion, whitetail tastes better than mule deer. But I think it does depend a little bit on diet.

IMO they are both a blast to hunt (pun intended). But Utah probably won't ever support huge populations whitetails.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Just a question, if whitetails did spread throughout the state, would any go up on the mountains? Or would they stay down in the valley's year round ?


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

I really wouldn't want a large population of whitetail to inhabit Utah, and in the same breath, I don't think this state has the habitat that would support one. I think, as svmoose said, that the population will not grow very large, and that they are probably here to stay in smaller numbers. Mulies and whitetails have very different needs and traits. I believe they will continue to inhabit the lowlands, river bottom areas, living on the fringes of crop fields and such. I do not believe they could do very well in the higher mountains. Their cover, food and escape abilities just doesn't fit that scenario.

I also don't think that there is much of a problem with cross breeding to the extent it would be detrimental to the mule deer herds. Although like Pro said, the whitetail bucks are much more agressive in their breeding, most cross offspring have a very short life cycle. Mule deer bucks will breed with whitetail does, but not to the same extent. Sure it will take that doe out of circulation for that years breeding cycle, but I don't believe even cross breeding will be a huge negative impact to the mulie herd.

After chasing blacktails for such a long time (very similar to hunting whitetails), I had almost forgotten what it was like to hunt mulies in the mountains. I much, much prefer chasing mulies. :mrgreen:


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

gdog said:


> Bowdacious...have you ever hunted whitetails?


No, but when I do I plan to do it in another state that is known for it. I don't want to see a lot of whitetails here in Utah. I enjoy chasing mulies on foot with a bow and there is NO room for these "****roaches" in Utah. Like Tex said....deer like the one he shot are a dime a dozen in these heavily populated deer states....it takes the fun out of it.


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## flyfisher117 (Jun 29, 2009)

If you get a good white tail that has fattened itself in nice green vegetation it beats a muley any day. ive eaten one white tail in my life and IMO it was better then all of the muleys ive eaten


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## hockey (Nov 7, 2007)

Maybe they should transplant a bunch down to Monroe Mtn. :lol: What do you think 1I?
I'm no Whitetail expert but here is my opinion. I grew up in Idaho and watched northern Idaho go from virtually 0 whitetail to an above carrying capacity in some areas (Kamiah and Kooski area) I assume they were above capacity because in those days (early 90's) you could get 3 tags per year, 2 does and 1 buck. Killing does and small bucks was very easy, bigger bucks you had to hunt hard for. The whitetail and mule deer in that area inhabited the same areas, river bottom, wheat fields, mountains, etc. The whitetail were much smarter and wild than the mulies. As the years went by mule deer numbers went down and whitetail numbers went up with much more hunting pressure on the whitetail.
No question whitetail are better eating than mule deer
You guys who are calling them "****roaches" and comparing southern states whitetail to western whitetail are not sounding very intelligent. Sorry Luke. Thats like comparing Utahs elk herd to Kentuckys. Whitetail in alot of southern and eastern states Georgia included are like a stunted Uintah brook trout lake.
I have a few friends who live in Idaho Falls and Eastern Idaho and they are making the most of the whitetail situation there, bowhunting for them near the river bottoms and hunting mulies in the hills
Whitetails are here to stay and the population is only gonna get bigger, look on the bright side it's gonna be something else to hunt!


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

One thing is certain, if they are coming into Utah, there isn't a dang thing you or I can do about it except shoot them (during the season of course). And maybe in our kids lifetime there will be a separate hunt for them to enjoy.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

Steve, I don't think that calling them ****roaches is making me sound stupid...just voicing an opinion. That opinion is that, to the utah deer herd, whitetails are ****roaches and there is no place for them here in utah. Just my opinion. 

Steve....Are you going to Powell?


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I used to live in Texas. I lived in a four deer county, meaning a hunter in my county could shoot four deer per year. Each county has its own limit as to how many deer a hunter may take. You buy a license for the county you plan to hunt. I absolutely loved hunting whitetails! 
Easier to hunt? More difficult to hunt? I never found whitetails too difficult to find. I suppose the large population of animals in Texas made it seem like whitetails were easier to hunt. The mountainous terrain our mulies inhabit is much more challenging to me because I'm out of shape. I'm going to reveal an unspoken Texas truth right now: if you're just after a meat buck, you can road hunt on your lease and shoot an animal almost any evening. If you don't shoot a little buck you'll get yourself a hog. Success for meat is pretty much guaranteed. Can we say that about our deer and elk populations? Deer are only similar to ****roaches in population numbers down South, animals are just everywhere. Big bucks are wiley like a big mulie. They don't get big by being dumb. 

On another note- without a doubt, I saw with my own eyes three whitetail deer last week. They were sneaking through an orchard in Perry.


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## Igottabigone (Oct 4, 2007)

Big Whities are every bit as hard to kill as a big Muley. Also, a big cornfed, midwest whitetail tastes better and is bigger than any mule deer I've seen in Utah. They are also a really fun to hunt.


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## iluvchukars (Oct 21, 2009)

You take a big muley and a big ****** from the same **** corn fed field and they will taste the same. Same as a sage brush fed muley and a ******. 

So what would happen if you killed one of these ****** does during the season?? Say on the extended archery south of weber canyon?? or on a depredation tag somewhere in cache county?? Everything was legal but you walk up and upon closer evaluation its a **** ******???

Just curious what you guys would do? Would you call the DWR? or just tag it, take it home and post pics on utahwildlife??!!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Just tag it and take it home.


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## hunter_orange13 (Oct 11, 2008)

Tag it, take it home. Its legal. Does your deer tag say MULE deer or deer? 

Maybe they will make our mulies herds even worse. Maybe they'll give the muleys a hunting pressure break with more animals to hunt. even though i'm hoping for the later, i'm assuming the first options going to happen.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

iluvchukars said:


> You take a big muley and a big ****** from the same **** corn fed field and they will taste the same. Same as a sage brush fed muley and a ******.


Correct!


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Bowdacious said:


> You're joking when you say they are harder to hunt....right? :lol:


Nope we are not!

For all those who are dead against whitetails being here, you better get set for disappointment, they haven't been able to stop them anywhere else they have moved into and took over, Utah isn't going to be differnet.

For my part, bring on the Whitetails!


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

iluvchukars said:


> You take a big muley and a big ****** from the same **** corn fed field and they will taste the same. Same as a sage brush fed muley and a ******.


I'm not saying this because I don't believe you, I am seriously interested in this comment. Has anyone eaten a muley and a whitetail that live in the same place and have the same diet, do they really taste the same?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

svmoose said:


> iluvchukars said:
> 
> 
> > You take a big muley and a big ****** from the same **** corn fed field and they will taste the same. Same as a sage brush fed muley and a ******.
> ...


Panhandle of OK, and yes you can tell the difference between them.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

the nail in the coffin to mule deer would be an established whitetail deer herd.

the whitetail deer inhabit the mule deer winter range. bad
the whitetail deer will do crop damage which the hunters of Utah will have to pay for. bad
the whitetail will cross bread. bad
the mule deer dont need to compete with any more animals. bad
whitetail deer will pretty much only live on privite land in Utah. so they dont benifit public hunters one bit. bad
the mule deer are native species of utah and whitetail are not. bad
whitetail deer are harder to hunt then mule deer and Utah rifle hunters are having a hard enough time killing mule deer. bad LOL


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

> whitetail deer are harder to hunt then mule deer and Utah rifle hunters are having a hard enough time killing mule deer. bad LOL


Now that is funny right there! :mrgreen:


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I have hunted and killed both whitetails and mulies. The thing that made the whiteys harder to hunt for me was the difference in tactics. The first two years I never killed a ****** and only saw a handful. The 3rd through six years I filled all five of my tags with fewer days in the field than the first two years. The way a deer tastes is definitely determined by it's diet and age. Whiteys can survive and thrive in just about any setting. I saw a group of 8 whiteys under a bridge on the Cross Bronx Expressway in New York City. One thought I have is if the whiteys do establish here I also would think that it would most likely be on private farmlands perhaps the landowners would be more willing to allow hunters to harvest on there property. The farmers and ranchers in Cache Valley despise the damage the elk herds do up there. White tails love alf alfa,hay and other ag crops and would most likely draw the ire of every dairy farmer up there.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> whitetail deer are harder to hunt then mule deer and Utah rifle hunters are having a hard enough time killing mule deer. bad LOL


I believe those "hunters" (I use that term loosely) harvest problems are more result of a lack of skill than a case of the deer being good at hunter avoidance. :lol: :twisted:


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

With the introduction (or spread) of any new species, there can be unintended consequences. It is typically hard to predict the total impact ahead of time. 

As an example here, when I was in grad/professional school, one of the professors taught us about a parasite called Eleaphora. It is a parasite that has co-evolved with whitetail deer and basically causes little or no disease in them. However, when it afflicts mulies (and elk) it can cause potentially serious central nervous system disease. We were taught this in the early 1990's (in Colorado) and the Coloradans at the time were watching this closely. I did a quick google search before typing this post, and didn't find any recent or English language references, which might hopefully imply that Eleaphora proved to be a non problem, but often the microbes a new arrival brings have a worse impact on the natives than direct competition. 

As for the flavor of whities, I have eaten it a couple of times and while I thought it tasted just fine, it always gave me a horrific case of diarrhea. :O>>: (sorry TMI)


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

The only advantage I see with them is that they do very well in small patches of fragmented habitats. These are the kinds of places that we humans really like to build houses and five acre-lot subdivisions. These are also great winter range for mule deer. But mule deer need bigger, less fragmented tracts of land. So as humans encroach into the winter habitats of the mule deer, they leave or die. Whitetails are filling into those areas now. I see lots of mule deer habitat being lost to development. But it is the development that the whitetails can survive in. While this in theory can keep deer around in the longer term, it is also the same thing that creates what I call the Bountiful problem. Those folks are complaining about the urban deer problem now. Just wait until these urban deer are having twins and triplets every year, and can survive in much smaller habitats and fragmented spaces than mule deer need. That will be the downside of the whitetail deer.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

you say "downside"...I say more opportunity for hunting an evolutionary superior deer species!!!


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

I'm with GARYFISH on this one. A lot of mule deer habitat is now fragmented. The muleys wont be back into some of these areas no matter what we do. The whitetails will. They do well in the areas where muleys dont. They have shown that they can adapt to urban enviornments. I think its a pipe dream that we can get rid of them.
I hope that they do well and I'd love to stick an arrow into one.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

svmoose said:


> iluvchukars said:
> 
> 
> > You take a big muley and a big ****** from the same **** corn fed field and they will taste the same. Same as a sage brush fed muley and a ******.
> ...


I have and no, they didn't taste the same. The whitetail was milder and more akin to moose meat than mule deer.

I would never generalize that they do or don't taste the same or that they ate the same diet, even if they hailed from the same area, as that would stand to make me look foolish, but in the instance I speak of, the taste was noticeably different.


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## izzydog (Jan 18, 2008)

I am torn on the subject. I have shot 2 whitetail and I as well as everybody else that ate some thought it was a lot better tasting. I would rather shoot a mule deer any day though and a trophy mulie is much more impressive than any whitetail in my opinion. If whitetail moved in I would shoot a small buck or a doe before shooting a small mulie so they could live a while longer. I just saw a whitetail doe yesterday south of Cokeville, Wyoming where I haven't seen one before so I don't think there is any way to stop them if they come, I just hope they don't negatively impact the mulies.


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## Me and Annie (Mar 3, 2008)

Like Garyfish I have hunted both in Montana. Often times on the same hunt we would harvest a muley out of one draw and a whitetail out of the next. Which is easest to hunt, hands down whitetails. For the vary reasons mentioned here as to why whitetails do so well in fragmented habitat. At least up there you could usually look at a piece of property and know you could find whitetails on it. The same is simply not true of muledeer. As far as big animals my brother (who still lives there), his son and his wife over the years and taken many trophy class whitetails. They have also harvested plenty of decent 4 point muleys but really nothing of what one might call trophy caliber. If you want to consider score a trophy whitetail being say 140 and a trophy muley being a 170 I could take you places where you might see a half dozen 150 whitetails in a week. I doubt many could show anyone a half dozen 180 class muleys in an entire season. Regarding taste, I have tested it people eating meat from each species killed in the same habitat could not tell the difference. They will tell you they can but in a blind taste test of meat well taken care of and cooked the same way (and I don't mean jerky) I promise you can't tell the difference. Do I want whitetails here in Utah not really but I agree they are here to stay and there will only be more and more. This state manages for elk, not muledeer. Whitetails really don't take much management.


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## hockey (Nov 7, 2007)

"I doubt many could show anyone a half dozen 180 class muleys in an entire season."

Let's take a drive down to the Henries, I will show you that many in an evening


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

hockey said:


> "I doubt many could show anyone a half dozen 180 class muleys in an entire season."
> 
> Let's take a drive down to the Henries, I will show you that many in an evening


Agreed. The Henries isn't the only place that a guy could see 6 180 class muleys in an entire seasons.


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## Me and Annie (Mar 3, 2008)

I figured the Henries or maybe the book cliffs perhaps some very exclusive private ranches would get brought up. let's talk about places that the aveage hunter might look, frankly even most outfitted hunters without very long draw odds. Watch some outdoor TV. How many trophy class whitetails get shot versus Muleys. I realize part of that may be do to veiwer preference, but on how many muledeer shows do you see them passing even 150 to 170 class bucks.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

Not just on the shows, but 99% of us on this forum would not pass on a 150 class mulie. On the hoof that is an incredible looking animal!


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

stablebuck said:


> you say "downside"...I say more opportunity for hunting an evolutionary superior deer species!!!


omg, WE HAVE A WINNER!


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## hockey (Nov 7, 2007)

Me and Annie said:


> Watch some outdoor TV.


Dude are you serious! Don't you know all those shows are filmed on high fenced ranches or they are hunting deer that are trained to come in when the feeder alarm goes off.


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## PhoebeMoses (Feb 19, 2010)

I have hunted many big game animals here in Utah, Antelope, Deer, Elk and Sheep and I'm exited to hunt whitetails this year on a buddies property in Michigan and that is how I will always prefer to hunt whitetails, OUT OF STATE! As far as taste goes, maybe whitetails do taste better than a mule deer, but that is a poor and silly argument for celebrating their intrusion into the state, if you are really concerned about hunting for taste maybe you could convince a beef farmer to let you hunt one of his cows out on the range, I don't think that would really be much fun, but I'm sure it would taste great! And as far as Whitetails occupying areas where mule deer don't in this state, well to that I say show me where. There are plenty of mule deer in the lower farm fields, river beds across the valley and even out around Utah lake. You can not and never could convince me that whitetails moving into these areas will not effect the mule deer in this state. The whitetail may be coming and I'm sure it will be very difficult to stop the spreading but I say "where there are guns there's a way" and I for one would be happy to do my part, I have the occasional week end free and I'm sure I could reduce the whitetail numbers by a few each trip, with the added bonus of tasty meat for my dogs... Ok, the for my dogs part may be a bit strong, I would eat and share a reasonable portion.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

PhoebeMoses said:


> The whitetail may be coming and I'm sure it will be very difficult to stop the spreading but I say "where there are guns there's a way" and I for one would be happy to do my part, I have the occasional week end free and I'm sure I could reduce the whitetail numbers by a few each trip, with the added bonus of tasty meat for my dogs... Ok, the for my dogs part may be a bit strong, I would eat and share a reasonable portion.


The flaw in your logic is half the Utard hunters (probally more like 75%) can't tell the difference bewteen a whitetail and a mule deer in the field, so they would kill just as many of your precious mulies as they would whitetails. :shock: :lol:


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## PhoebeMoses (Feb 19, 2010)

> The flaw in your logic is half the Utard hunters (probally more like 75%) can't tell the difference bewteen a whitetail and a mule deer in the field, so they would kill just as many of your precious mulies as they would whitetails. :shock: :lol:


I disagree. And your use of "Utard" is offensive and nonsensical. :lol: Really though I was being a little cynical and sarcastic earlier. I simply prefer to hunt Mule deer in Utah and Whitetails else where. But I may have no choice in the matter and whitetails may end up being more prevalent in Utah, and if this becomes so I would hope to see a separate whitetail specific hunt otherwise I can't see myself ever hunting them instate.


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## SFWG (Sep 8, 2007)

I would love to hunt a whitetail in this state. The good news is they will not hinder the elk management plan. :?


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## scottie985 (Jan 4, 2010)

How can whitetails be harder to hunt. They go out to eat in the fields at night and come off in the morning. You can set your watch by them. You only hunt a hour or so in the morning and maybe three at night. The rest of the day you might as well plan something else. Yes for the most part they do taste better but they live on the same farm as a cow why shouldn't they?


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## Bergy (Apr 3, 2008)

Wow, it sounds like the whitetail is going to be perfect for the average Utah hunter. They are "easy" to hunt. That will help the grossly overweight hunter that cant get off his ATV. You can "set your watch" by them. That will help the busy Utah hunter who only has a few minutes to road hunt before heading back to camp to catch the BYU game on his satillite tv in his 5th wheel trailer. They taste better, so those Utah hunters that think they have to turn the entire deer into jerky and salami will now be able to enjoy new venison recipes. And finally, they reproduce at such an amazing rate that even the UDWR couldnt eliminate them with thier poor management. :lol:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Bergy said:


> Wow, it sounds like the whitetail is going to be perfect for the average Utah hunter. They are "easy" to hunt. That will help the grossly overweight hunter that cant get off his ATV. You can "set your watch" by them. That will help the busy Utah hunter who only has a few minutes to road hunt before heading back to camp to catch the BYU game on his satillite tv in his 5th wheel trailer. They taste better, so those Utah hunters that think they have to turn the entire deer into jerky and salami will now be able to enjoy new venison recipes. And finally, they reproduce at such an amazing rate that even the UDWR couldnt eliminate them with thier poor management. :lol:


 :rotfl: :rotfl: -_O-


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Bergy said:


> Wow, it sounds like the whitetail is going to be perfect for the average Utah hunter. They are "easy" to hunt. That will help the grossly overweight hunter that cant get off his ATV. You can "set your watch" by them. That will help the busy Utah hunter who only has a few minutes to road hunt before heading back to camp to catch the BYU game on his satillite tv in his 5th wheel trailer. They taste better, so those Utah hunters that think they have to turn the entire deer into jerky and salami will now be able to enjoy new venison recipes. And finally, they reproduce at such an amazing rate that even the UDWR couldnt eliminate them with thier poor management. :lol:


POST OF THE YEAR!!!!!! :rotfl: *()* -~|-


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

> POST OF THE YEAR!!!!!!


+100 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## PhoebeMoses (Feb 19, 2010)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Bergy said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, it sounds like the whitetail is going to be perfect for the average Utah hunter. They are "easy" to hunt. That will help the grossly overweight hunter that cant get off his ATV.
> ...


[/quote:1sgad9hn]


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

> Really Treehughntr and stillhunter? post of the year? I have been on this forum long enough to know that we have higher standards then this senseless drivel, I will give it- average post of the day on "let's talk about whitetails"


Awww, come on PhoebeMoses, sometimes ya just gotta smile at life and take things with a grain of salt...don't ya think??? _(O)_


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

He must be allergic to salt......... :wink:


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

nope...Bergy got it about right...
Deer hunt video
by huntinco on Sun May 02, 2010 7:55 pm

I'm finally getting around to posting video again. Hope u guys enjoy




 ... dded#at=44Justin Richins
http://www.thehuntingcompany.com/

that's what the vast majority of "hunters" in any state consider "hunting"..."go warm up the rhino Jasper...we got us some huntin to do" :lol:


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## PhoebeMoses (Feb 19, 2010)

stillhunterman said:


> Awww, come on PhoebeMoses, sometimes ya just gotta smile at life and take things with a grain of salt...don't ya think??? _(O)_


 I totally agree, and for the most part I believe I do a fine job of acting with equivocation as well as refraining from entertaining silly and derisive posts, or of letting such opinions bother me, this in spite of the fact that often the logic in such posts have shown these two propositions to be illogically fatuous, based on out of context quotes and misguided opinions. But what really irks me is demeaning and generalized statements of any hunter group, especially those of Utah. Might I remind some of our forum members that this is the "Utah Wildlife Network", and that you are free to hunt else where, if you are in fact that disturbed by the average Utah hunter and or the system in general. Which is not to say that you shouldn't at times be constructive of the system or other hunters, but being constructive is a very different then, ranting, bitching, criticizing and complaining. At least that is if you hope to influence any real positive change.

Also this is just my opinion/rigmarole.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

PhoebeMoses said:


> stillhunterman said:
> 
> 
> > Awww, come on PhoebeMoses, sometimes ya just gotta smile at life and take things with a grain of salt...don't ya think??? _(O)_
> ...


I took it as jest on his part, I thought it was funny, but I see your point.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I found the comments humorous and I also think it's asinine to try and control nature. Also, hillbilly-esque comments about 'keepin them **** dog deers outta our state' contribute to generalizations that sometimes make me ashamed to affiliate with hunters. 

Mule deer populations are declining with very little to nothing to do with whitetail populations. If Utahns want to be able to hunt deer in Utah with any type of regularity, they might want to consider embracing ANY deer that decides to call Utah home. Or..... we can kick and scream and SFW can throw up a smokescreen for 'eradication of the dirty hillbilly deer from our pristine state' campaign and start eliminating more opportunity for empathetic hunters throughout the state, who have nothing more to contribute than buying a tag and aimlessly bitching about here-say and spewing emotionally driven empty rhetoric.


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## muleydeermaniac (Jan 17, 2008)

I have a question. Last year during the hunt I saw a small fork horned whitetail. It was up in cache valley. Now would it have been ok for me to pull the trigger?


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

muleydeermaniac said:


> I have a question. Last year during the hunt I saw a small fork horned whitetail. It was up in cache valley. Now would it have been ok for me to pull the trigger?


Yes you are allowed to shot it because what you have is a deer tag, not a mule deer tag.

Tree why would anyone want to shot something the size of a German Shepard, sorry I couldn't resist. You make some valid points.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

jahan said:


> Tree why would anyone want to shot something the size of a German Shepard, sorry I couldn't resist. You make some valid points.


Body size is dependant on region. Deer in say West Virgina are fairly tiny... whitetails coming out of Quebec are larger than most mule deer. The whitetail known as Goliath weighed 375lbs.

-DallanC


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Don't be sharing that info, dispelling myths is only going to confuse and anger people who have their entire belief systems based on such stories!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > Tree why would anyone want to shot something the size of a German Shepard, sorry I couldn't resist. You make some valid points.
> ...


I know that, I was just joking around. :mrgreen:


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I don't like to think that mule deer have started on a decline and that they will not be able to rebound back. Be it habitat, disease, management or that they may someday be bred out of existence by whitetails (which some biologists have theorized may happen in the far future). I love mule deer too much to think they may not be slotting up and down the Utah countryside. 

On the other hand we have no control over what nature has selected for elimination. If mule deer could evolve and adapt to where they could survive just as whitetails have then I would be a happy hunter and not a MadHunter. But as I stated, nature does it's thing. So when life give you lemons..... make whitetail jerky! -8/-


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

You make a very good point with the below statement:



MadHunter said:


> *I don't like* to think that mule deer have started on a decline and that they will not be able to rebound back. /-


A tendency to refute, make up convoluted reasoning and ignore facts as a result of _not liking_ what's in front of people is exactly what causes them to lie to themselves and ignore logic in a number of situations. Not one of us is exempt, but some are much less conscious about this happening than others.

MadHunter, Please PM me your lemon whitetail jerky recipe.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

jahan said:


> I know that, I was just joking around. :mrgreen:


Ah ok, some times its hard to know when people are joking or not. There are some mighty small whitetails out there (deep south).

Trivia: 10's of thousands of years ago North America only had one species of deer. Glaciers divided the US into east and western parts. Deer on the west evolved differently than deer on the east and became blacktails, those on the east became whitetails. Over time, glaciers receeded and the whitetails / blacktails cross bred and created mule deer. This was discovered through DNA testing of the 3 species. I am not sure how Coue's Deer fit into this, the research I read only covered whitetails, blacktails and mule deer.

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> I don't like to think that mule deer have started on a decline and that they will not be able to rebound back. Be it habitat, disease, management or that they may someday be bred out of existence by whitetails (which some biologists have theorized may happen in the far future). I love mule deer too much to think they may not be slotting up and down the Utah countryside.
> 
> On the other hand we have no control over what nature has selected for elimination. If mule deer could evolve and adapt to where they could survive just as whitetails have then I would be a happy hunter and not a MadHunter. But as I stated, nature does it's thing. So when life give you lemons..... make whitetail jerky! -8/-


I've always felt rise in mule deer populations was artificial, caused by settlers clearing out predators and changing the environment that caused a boom cycle. Things have changed yet again and I fear mule deer are declining to their historically low levels.

Go back and read the Lewis and Clark journals. They are the best source of early animal population surveys. While seeing tremendous amounts of bison, elk, bear etc... they specifically note the "large eared deer", rarely seen.

-DallanC


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > I know that, I was just joking around. :mrgreen:
> ...


It is my bad, I forgot the little winkie guy. :wink: :mrgreen: I like the trivia!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

> Trivia: 10's of thousands of years ago North America only had one species of deer. Glaciers divided the US into east and western parts. Deer on the west evolved differently than deer on the east and became blacktails, those on the east became whitetails. Over time, glaciers receeded and the whitetails / blacktails cross bred and created mule deer. This was discovered through DNA testing of the 3 species. I am not sure how Coue's Deer fit into this, the research I read only covered whitetails, blacktails and mule deer.
> 
> -DallanC


I too have read this and wondered a few things that has gone unanswered.
1.- If Muleys were created from the crossbreeding of black tails and white tails, what causes Whitetail/Muley offspring to be sterile?
2.- Does that not indicate that whitetails at some point called the rocky states home? or Did Muleys migrate here from wherever the black/whitetails bred?
3.- What genetic mutation caused the larger bodies of the mule deer? Compared to black tail and white tail they tend to be much larger?
4.- Muleys obviously got their territorial requirements from the black tail genes. Could evolution kick start the dormant adaptability/ survival genes from whitetails?

If anyone knows please shed some light


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I know some researchers are connecting the dots between Whitetail and Blacktail, but I'm not buying it. (and yes, I've read several articles about it) If that really is true - then if you were to cross the two right now, the offspring would be a mule deer? ? Really?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

With all this talk about species, I gotta ask the question, who else has managed to make the slam on them, by that I mean kill all 4, mule, whitetail, Coues, and black tail? 

I cut my teeth on the Whitetails back in 1981, but I didn't kill a mulie till 1993, I got my first couses in 1994, and shot my only blacktail in 1998.

DallanC, I've always been told that the Coues was a sub species of the whitetail that evolved to live very arid environments. Maybe we should import some of those here too!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> I too have read this and wondered a few things that has gone unanswered.


Good questions, some I've wondered about myself.



> 1.- If Muleys were created from the crossbreeding of black tails and white tails, what causes Whitetail/Muley offspring to be sterile?


Dunno.



> 2.- Does that not indicate that whitetails at some point called the rocky states home? or Did Muleys migrate here from wherever the black/whitetails bred?


Were they even "rocky mountains" then? Hard to imagine what this area looked like 500 or 1000 years ago. Just reading the pioneers description of the SLC valley when they got here is hard to imagine.



> 3.- What genetic mutation caused the larger bodies of the mule deer? Compared to black tail and white tail they tend to be much larger?


Mulies from Sonora "appear" to be smaller bodied than those around here (could be an illusion though from them having a thinner winter coat). Also whitetails from up in canada have much larger bodies... so I'm not sure how you calculate the "mean" weight of a whitetail to compare it to the "mean" weight of a mule deer. There are bigger ones and smaller ones of each species depending on the climate.



> 4.- Muleys obviously got their territorial requirements from the black tail genes. Could evolution kick start the dormant adaptability/ survival genes from whitetails?


I thought one of the main complaints against whitetails invading mule deer areas is they are more territorial and aggressive than mule deer?

-DallanC


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Hybrid's are interesting, to say the least. Without going into a lot of detail, the following is a pretty good read about the subject, including the Cous deer. I found it very interesting they claim mule deer are more closely related to whitetails than blacktails... :shock:

http://www.coueswhitetail.com/coues_biology/hybrids.htm


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

As long as the whitetails dont bring the wolves with them.... I am ok with their presence.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Deer and other species tend to be smaller in warmer climates. I read an article on bighorn sheep several years ago that stated the reason Desert Bighorns are smaller is because they live in warmer climates. I see the same thing with mule deer in northern (colder) areas versus southern (warmer areas), and whitetails as well.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

maddhunter 

i am answering your questions as best as I can. :mrgreen: 

saying muledeer came from a blacktail and a whitetail cross is like saying your granddaddy came from a chimpanzee. -BaHa!- 

evolution is as much BS as global warming. just read the bible :V|: 

but if you want to keep thinking your grandaddy is a chimpanzee then who am i to stop you. :O—–-:


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> maddhunter
> 
> i am answering your questions as best as I can. :mrgreen:
> 
> ...


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

jahan said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> > maddhunter
> ...


Like What: how to befriend/breed a chimp by Jane Goodall? :mrgreen: Isn't that where aids came from man on ape?


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Like What: how to befriend/breed a chimp by Jane Goodall? :mrgreen: Isn't that where aids came from man on ape?


I thinking more like Harry Potter, but that sounds like a good read, can I borrow it from you? :mrgreen: :wink: :lol:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

That would explain a lot about Jahan and his avatar. :mrgreen:


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> That would explain a lot about Jahan and his avatar. :mrgreen:


LOL no wonder he is so sensitive about apes -BaHa!-

just giving you a hard time Jahan only because you have responded to my post. no hard feelings


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > That would explain a lot about Jahan and his avatar. :mrgreen:
> ...


None taken, I thought your response was clever and funny. Yotes not so much! :shock: :wink: :mrgreen:


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