# Utah Jazz / initial impressions



## PBH

Just a few thoughts after watching the Utah Jazz in their opening game last night:


A. FuboTV. I don't know. I guess it provided an option for me to watch the game, but there were a few issues:
1. the sound was a little ahead of the picture. Not bad, but noticeable.
2. Fast forwarding through commercials was a challenge. And, even if you skipped ahead 10, 20, 30 seconds, it jump back and repeat segments of the commercials to the point where skipping ahead didn't gain you anything. There is some work that Fubo needs to do on fast forwarding recorded content.

B. Bolerjack is still a buffoon. After Gobert made his first two free throws Bolerjack commented that if he could continue going "2-for-2 he'd have a really nice season". If anyone in the NBA continued that for the season, it would be a freakishly amazing season!

C. Rudy Gobert is really good. 
D. Rudy Gobert is really good. So good, we should name a national park after him.
E. Rudy Gobert is really good. We've said this in the past, and I'll say it again: he's the best player on the Jazz.

F. I'm not a Paschal fan. The jury is still out on Rudy Gay. But, either way, we've upgraded from Niang!
G. Our bench is solid. Clarkson, Ingles, and Whiteside -- then add the others (Butler, Oni, Paschall, Gay). 
H. Right now, I think we are a better team.



Lastly -- It's nice to see the Jazz are not exempt from the wokeness that is the USA. I'm happy to see that the Jazz continue to be leaders, and fight for diversity, inclusion, and belonging. And it's not just words, but actions. Case in point: how refreshing is it to see a white male included in the Jazz Dancers? No longer will it just be a bunch of hot chicks out shaking it on the court during breaks in the game - but now we get a white guy out sharing his rhythm giving all the rest of us white guys hope!! Thank you Utah Jazz Dancers!!



(Did I mention that Gobert is really good?)


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## PBH

We've got to push for this.


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## PBH

(I was never a "KK" fan. But I don't know if we upgraded with Holly. Why do we need the added buffoonery anyway?)


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> We've got to push for this.
> View attachment 149838


Sure, but lets keep it a national monument. 


A quick thought or two. (I only watched from the 2nd quarter on due to work)

1. At least it was a Thurl night. But, hey they are broadcasting over KSL 1160 now so you can turn that on where you live if you can't take Blunderjack any more. (and we all reach that point from time to time)
2. OKC isn't going to set the world afire this year. I think we can get a better gauge as we play tougher competition. 
3. I too think the bench will be better. 
4. Maybe the white "dude" is just identifying that way presently. Workplace accommodation?


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## PBH

I'm OK with keeping it a national monument. But if the Rudy Gobert Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument is ever shrunk [again] and we create the Rudy Gobert Escalante River National Park, then I think we should name it after Rudy Gobert.

#RGGSENM
#RGERNP


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> I'm OK with keeping it a national monument. But if the Rudy Gobert Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument is ever shrunk [again] and we create the Rudy Gobert Escalante River National Park, then I think we should name it after Rudy Gobert.
> 
> #RGGSENM
> #RGERNP


I thought the name we settled on was Gobert/Stewart NP? 

So the locals can remember who to thank when their access they are used to is restricted.


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## PBH

the Rudy Gobert Escalante River National Park by Chris Stewart.

I like it.

#RGERNPbyCS


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## pollo70

Let's go Jazz!!!🏀🙌


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## #1DEER 1-I

They’ll be good, but I think we’re all just waiting on the playoffs…..also…..Holly Rowe is great.


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## PBH

OK. We're 3 full weeks in, so I have 1 additional comment on the Jazz at this point:

Just like the past number of seasons, the Jazz are really, really bad at backup PG. When Conley is out, we are bad. I don't get it, either. When Conley is out, our game plan changes and moves away from the formula that makes us good. Instead, it turns into iso-hero ball, which we aren't good at.

In today's era of painting "rest" as a good reason to miss a game, I'm afraid we are in for another early playoff exit.


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## Vanilla

The NBA has started? Huh...I didn't notice.

Talk to me in February.


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## 3arabians

How bout that Rudy Gay debut!? Pretty cool to watch. He will definitely make the Jazz better. 

You gotta love Bolerjack! “19 for Rudy Gay! Oh, make that 20, he missed a free throw.” 


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## Catherder

3arabians said:


> How bout that Rudy Gay debut!? Pretty cool to watch. He will definitely make the Jazz better.
> 
> You gotta love Bolerjack! “19 for Rudy Gay! Oh, make that 20, he missed a free throw.”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Not bad! He could be quite helpful. And Boler is Boler. (smh) 

One other thing. Its been all Thurl on the broadcasts so far, which I'm totally fine with. Has Harpring moved along?


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## PBH

I'm wondering if Harpring ran off with Kristen Kenney, and left Boler with Holly Rowe?


Boler did provide a good comment last night concerning Rudy Gay's performance. He said: this is only the 5th time in his career that he's made 5 three pointers. (or something very close to that). What I took from that comment was -- don't expect this every night from Gay. However, with Utah's offense, maybe these performances will be more frequent?


I thought the discussion about Gay's new nickname (Ocho) was sad. Basically, they approached Gay and said "hey, we don't want to confuse you with Gobert. Can we call you something else? You have the number 8 on your jersey. How does 'Ocho' sound?". Nicknames should come naturally. They should never be forced. But, hey, that's Boler for you....


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## PBH

just out of curiosity, is anyone else using FuboTV to watch games? I'm still disappointed in it. Watching a recorded game is tough -- sometimes I can jump forward, sometimes I can't. It always gets glitchy -- If I do jump forward, it will sit and skip back ~3 times by 15 seconds, negating the jump forward. The sound consistently gets out of synch with the picture. But, at least I can watch the games....


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## Vanilla

Harpring was terrible. He was probably “moved long” by the Jazz, if they’re smart.

I was at the Heat game. This team has a lot to work on if they want a legit shot this year. I don’t think they have the capability to flip the switch on and off like some elite teams have been known to do. Their D has been really bad this year and at least in that Heat game, they made no effort to even attempt to move the ball.


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> I'm wondering if Harpring ran off with Kristen Kenney, and left Boler with Holly Rowe?
> 
> I thought the discussion about Gay's new nickname (Ocho) was sad. Basically, they approached Gay and said "hey, we don't want to confuse you with Gobert. Can we call you something else? You have the number 8 on your jersey. How does 'Ocho' sound?". Nicknames should come naturally. They should never be forced. But, hey, that's Boler for you....



I think Harpring went home to Georgia and opened a chain of new Chick-fil-a's. KK may have followed along or is auditioning to get Holly's gig at ABC.

The Ocho thing is indeed dumb but fairly fitting. "Ocho" has only 4 letters and 2 syllables, so it fits perfectly in Boler's cranial wheelhouse. I think he should just say the guys name. It sounds less dumb than "Ocho" and will score a few points with the woke crowd too.


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## #1DEER 1-I

So far a pretty uninspiring group.


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## Vanilla

#1DEER 1-I said:


> So far a pretty uninspiring group.


If you said that about Russell Westbrook he would say you are being racist! And you’d probably agree with him. Ignorant Utahns…


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## 3arabians

Cleared the bench for the 3rd road game in a row. I like it! 


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## Catherder

3arabians said:


> Cleared the bench for the 3rd road game in a row. I like it!


It's a long season but where are all the negative nellies right now? 

If they can just stay healthy...........


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## 3arabians

Catherder said:


> It's a long season but where are all the negative nellies right now?
> 
> If they can just stay healthy...........


You said it! Going 4-0 on a road trip says something. They also need to protect the home court which has been a struggle so far. 6 straight at home now. Could be a long win streak from here. Gotta stay healthy. We’ll see. 


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## #1DEER 1-I

They’re looking a lot better at this point. Hopefully they can better translate it to post-season success this year. Looking at the rest of the league they have a legitimate chance to have a chance. The Lakers aren’t honestly that good. Suns are very good. In the East, if Kyrie ends up back it’s probably the Nets to lose, but the Jazz have plenty of talent if they can simply put it together.


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## PBH

Catherder said:


> ... where are all the negative nellies right now?


I'm right here.


The trend that worries me right now is something Bolerjack says every game: Don time!

I still worry about the NBA trend of playing "iso ball" at the ends of games. We use team ball to build leads, then go to "iso" "hero" ball in the 4th quarter? I don't like it.

Gobert is still awesome. Quote of the week:


Rudy Gobert said:


> ...When you're the best in the world at something, people become insecure and try to discredit what you do in some kind of way...
> ...What people need to understand is we’re not playing a pickup game in the park. It’s not a 1-on-1 game. When I'm out there, I'm not guarding one guy, _I'm guarding the whole team_. It's hard to understand for some guys; they get used to just being able to impact one guy at a time.


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## Vanilla

It's no secret that I have not been a huge Gobert fan. I became a fan after his dustup with Indiana, and he called out all the fake tough guys in the NBA. His quote after that game telling people to quit acting like they want to fight and just play basketball may be my favorite quote by an NBA player ever! The NBA is full of these fake tough guys these days that don't say or do anything until there are 8 people separating them, and then they become the toughest guy in the gym. Bothers me beyond my ability to describe in words of the English language. Just play basketball, losers. None of you know how to really fight anyway! 

I still feel that Gobert's elite skill set is too easily isolated and exposed in a 7 game series for him to be your highest paid player, but what is done is done, and I hope the Jazz can figure it out come playoff time when it really matters. They've already proven they can win the regular season, and that became pretty meaningless a month later. The only thing that will matter this year is if they are playing in late May and June. If not, anything that happened in December is completely worthless.


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## PBH

Vanilla -- your comments about the post season are exactly what worries me about playing iso-ball. It's not whether Gobert get's exposed as much as it is about the other team taking Donovan out of the game. When we play iso, it becomes easy for opposing teams to stop. 

Just my opinion.


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## PBH

Miles Bridges said:


> _Nobody is ever going to fight in the NBA_. _The NBA is kind of like WWE_


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## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Vanilla -- your comments about the post season are exactly what worries me about playing iso-ball. It's not whether Gobert get's exposed as much as it is about the other team taking Donovan out of the game. When we play iso, it becomes easy for opposing teams to stop.
> 
> Just my opinion.


I don't think that is an opinion. The Jazz offense is significantly worse when the ball stops moving. I don't mind 45 taking over a game everyone once in a while when things aren't clicking, that's what great players do. And if the Jazz are going to be champions, which I think most of us here on this thread want, we need 45 to be great. But they won't win with him going straight iso-hero ball either, that's for sure.


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> The trend that worries me right now is something Bolerjack says every game: Don time!
> 
> I still worry about the NBA trend of playing "iso ball" at the ends of games. We use team ball to build leads, then go to "iso" "hero" ball in the 4th quarter? I don't like it.


This is a valid point. The next evolution of Mitchell's stardom (if he makes it) is to consistently make the best basketball play in crunch time. Sometimes, that means taking the shot, but more often it will involve passing as opposed to the highly contested shot he often takes. As you said, it isn't just the Jazz that struggles with this. 

As for Gobert, I think last years playoffs were as much Mitchell and Conley trying to defend drives from the periphery on one leg and the lack of strategic adjustment by Quinn as opposed to Goberts issues. We still ought to name our next National Park after him.


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## Vanilla

Catherder said:


> This is a valid point. The next evolution of Mitchell's stardom (if he makes it) is to consistently make the best basketball play in crunch time. Sometimes, that means taking the shot, but more often it will involve passing as opposed to the highly contested shot he often takes.


Nope, this can't be. I've sat and listened to "highly educated" basketball people say LeBron isn't any good because he doesn't force himself to take the last shot like Jordan did EVERY time!


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## Catherder

Vanilla said:


> Nope, this can't be. I've sat and listened to "highly educated" basketball people say LeBron isn't any good because he doesn't force himself to take the last shot like Jordan did EVERY time!


Well, Mitchell is not Jordan, and if "Spida" pushed off Bryon Russell, he would be quickly called for an offensive foul.


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## Critter

What's everyone's opinion on Danny Ainge coming to the Jazz as the CEO of Jazz basketball? 









Ainge gets 'unique opportunity' with Jazz as CEO


The Utah Jazz hired Danny Ainge as alternate governor and CEO to oversee the franchise's basketball operations.




www.espn.com


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## 3arabians

The alternate governor title is strange. Other than that I think it’s a good thing. He has tons of experience. 


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## #1DEER 1-I

Critter said:


> What's everyone's opinion on Danny Ainge coming to the Jazz as the CEO of Jazz basketball?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ainge gets 'unique opportunity' with Jazz as CEO
> 
> 
> The Utah Jazz hired Danny Ainge as alternate governor and CEO to oversee the franchise's basketball operations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com


I think he is a decent voice in the room. He's said a few things that some players may not love, and he's taken a bit of heat in NBA circles for a few trades he made that people saw as brutal towards the player. If he's not directly associated with day to day business and the players I'm okay with it. I'm not sure I like how big of a voice he has, I was hoping for more of an advisory role and not such a major role from him.


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## PBH

I have nothing against Ainge -- but I do find it kind of odd that he's come back as an executive in the NBA. He already quit citing health and family reasons -- so you have to wonder how long this will last? You also have to wonder, what exactly is happening behind the scenes to necessitate the hiring? Was Zanik not getting things done appropriately? Or is this just simply a cronyism between Smith and Ainge?

Will anything really change? I mean, Scott Layden, Kevin OConnor, Dennis Lindsey, Justin Zanik - and now Ainge....
sure, we might see a trade, and a draft, and some personnel movement, but what is really going to change?


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## Vanilla

I think it’s a big “meh.” Maybe it will be good? It’s a meh. 

Surprised 1-eye so casually glossed over Ainge’s comments. This has been his one man crusade to convince us how evil and racist Utah is. I guess Ainge made them as a Celtic, so that might hurt his narrative in the end.


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> Or is this just simply a cronyism between Smith and Ainge?


I think this is a big part of it. I guess Smith and Ainge go way back. Ainge has had a fair bit of heart trouble the past few years and I think the cited health concerns were legit. 

It is another person the existing brass can bounce ideas off of while out on the golf course. At least that's my take.


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## PBH

didn't Urban Meyer retire due to health issues?

Oh well. I guess Urban is going to be able to relax at home now anyway.


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> didn't Urban Meyer retire due to health issues?
> 
> Oh well. I guess Urban is going to be able to relax at home now anyway.



Uh, yeah. He'll probably relax by kicking his grandkids.


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## #1DEER 1-I

PBH said:


> I have nothing against Ainge -- but I do find it kind of odd that he's come back as an executive in the NBA. He already quit citing health and family reasons -- so you have to wonder how long this will last? You also have to wonder, what exactly is happening behind the scenes to necessitate the hiring? Was Zanik not getting things done appropriately? Or is this just simply a cronyism between Smith and Ainge?
> 
> Will anything really change? I mean, Scott Layden, Kevin OConnor, Dennis Lindsey, Justin Zanik - and now Ainge....
> sure, we might see a trade, and a draft, and some personnel movement, but what is really going to change?


Oh yeah, this is just mainly Ainge having pretty extensive NBA knowledge and him being friends with Smith so Smith gave him a job closer to Ainge's family where he wanted to be. I agree I don't know how long it will last. If I was Danny I'd want to retire and sail off into the sunset honestly. For better or worse Ainge isn't attached to the human aspect of players though, and he's rubbed some players and NBA circles the wrong way because of it. This is the first move Smith has made that I think is a little bit questionable for a few reasons, but it is what it is, and Smith had better hope it works out. I also kind of hope he ran it by the star players on his team, specifically Mitchell, just because for right or wrong, Ainge's reputation is not as in line with a lot of the player friendly organization things Smith has done. Tony Jones--Jazz reporter for The Athletic-- mentioned in his latest article Ainge is someone who won't be afraid to pull the trigger on a Gobert trade after this season if we don't see better post-season results.....actually Tony more implied if we don't see better post season results to maybe even expect it.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Here’s the part of the article:


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## #1DEER 1-I

Catherder said:


> I think this is a big part of it. I guess Smith and Ainge go way back. Ainge has had a fair bit of heart trouble the past few years and I think the cited health concerns were legit.
> 
> It is another person the existing brass can bounce ideas off of while out on the golf course. At least that's my take.


I think he has a bigger role than that from those who have reported covering the team. Smith is 1st say, Ainge is now 2nd say, Zanik is 3rd say. Sure it's a collaboration, but essentially Ainge took Lindsey's spot, and Lindsey usurped Zanik several times, a lot of which have ended up being detrimental. We will see how Ainge does I guess.


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## CPAjeff

I’m currently at the game tonight and this is by far the worst Jazz game I have ever attended. ZERO energy in the arena, club-type music blaring nonstop - maybe this music has the players shooting their shots, just the wrong kind of shots.


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## 2full

CPAjeff said:


> I’m currently at the game tonight and this is by far the worst Jazz game I have ever attended. ZERO energy in the arena, club-type music blaring nonstop - maybe this music has the players shooting their shots, just the wrong kind of shots.


Maybe that's why they play better on the road than at home ..... Lose at home to the lowly Spurs ??


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## Vanilla

This is one reason I have a hard time getting too invested in NBA basketball this early in the season. Jazz won 8 in a row and 9 of 10 coming into the game. The wheels have not come off any more than they became championship favorites over the last few weeks as they’ve dominated.

Enjoy the ride, the only thing that matters for this team at this point is May, and getting into June.


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## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Just a few thoughts after watching the Utah Jazz in their opening game last night:
> 
> 
> A. FuboTV. I don't know. I guess it provided an option for me to watch the game, but there were a few issues:
> 1. the sound was a little ahead of the picture. Not bad, but noticeable.
> 2. Fast forwarding through commercials was a challenge. And, even if you skipped ahead 10, 20, 30 seconds, it jump back and repeat segments of the commercials to the point where skipping ahead didn't gain you anything. There is some work that Fubo needs to do on fast forwarding recorded content.
> 
> B. Bolerjack is still a buffoon. After Gobert made his first two free throws Bolerjack commented that if he could continue going "2-for-2 he'd have a really nice season". If anyone in the NBA continued that for the season, it would be a freakishly amazing season!
> 
> C. Rudy Gobert is really good.
> D. Rudy Gobert is really good. So good, we should name a national park after him.
> E. Rudy Gobert is really good. We've said this in the past, and I'll say it again: he's the best player on the Jazz.
> 
> F. I'm not a Paschal fan. The jury is still out on Rudy Gay. But, either way, we've upgraded from Niang!
> G. Our bench is solid. Clarkson, Ingles, and Whiteside -- then add the others (Butler, Oni, Paschall, Gay).
> H. Right now, I think we are a better team.
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly -- It's nice to see the Jazz are not exempt from the wokeness that is the USA. I'm happy to see that the Jazz continue to be leaders, and fight for diversity, inclusion, and belonging. And it's not just words, but actions. Case in point: how refreshing is it to see a white male included in the Jazz Dancers? No longer will it just be a bunch of hot chicks out shaking it on the court during breaks in the game - but now we get a white guy out sharing his rhythm giving all the rest of us white guys hope!! Thank you Utah Jazz Dancers!!
> 
> 
> 
> (Did I mention that Gobert is really good?)


PBH, any update on the sound/picture issue or the skipping ahead? Being a YoutubeTV customer that now has no Disney owned channels, I’m looking for another option.


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## PBH

I was at the game on 


CPAjeff said:


> I’m currently at the game tonight and this is by far the worst Jazz game I have ever attended. ZERO energy in the arena, club-type music blaring nonstop - maybe this music has the players shooting their shots, just the wrong kind of shots.



Wizards game? I was at the Wizards game with my family, and I felt nearly the same as Jeff. My wife and kids had fun, even though they confiscated my daughter's poster because it was too big. I guess the maximum size is 11x17 -- which isn't a poster.....

Jazz games are different in person than they used to be 20 years ago. I feel like the business of the NBA is no longer catering to the basketball fans. They already know the basketball fan will come and watch, so they pump up the club music and try to turn it into a dance party. Whatever happens in the tunnels at half time is obviously more important / entertaining than the game, because the lower bowel is empty for the 3rd quarter. The fans never even got into the game, until it was too late -- and by then we were all just groaning at the missed free-throws.

The lesson learned here: never buy tickets to the second game of a back-to-back. Without Conley, the Jazz do not distribute the ball. They dribble too much, turn it over more, and take more bad shots. And, the biggest tragedy of all: They leave Gobert out. You know it's bad when your 14 year old daughter asks "Dad, why won't they pass it to Gobert?".

Oh well. At least we got to dance and eat some expensive popcorn out of a souvenir Jazz popcorn bucket with the new Jazz colors (black and white).

meh.


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## PBH

Vanilla said:


> PBH, any update on the sound/picture issue or the skipping ahead? Being a YoutubeTV customer that now has no Disney owned channels, I’m looking for another option.


Watching the game live is just fine. Even if you pause it and wait 30 minutes, you can skip forward and it works just fine.
The only issues are watching the recorded version. It makes no sense to me -- but the recorded version usually won't let me skip ahead unless I pause the recorded version, and then I have to rewatch the same 30 seconds about three times before it continues (it will skip back 3 times after skipping forward). It's weird. I've tried updating the app, but nothing has changed.

But, it's the available option - so I use it. At least until playoffs - no TBS or TNT on FuboTV. Then I guess I'll have to watch on the computer from some internet site like TV247....


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## CPAjeff

PBH said:


> I was at the game on
> 
> 
> 
> Wizards game? I was at the Wizards game with my family, and I felt nearly the same as Jeff. My wife and kids had fun, even though they confiscated my daughter's poster because it was too big. I guess the maximum size is 11x17 -- which isn't a poster.....
> 
> Jazz games are different in person than they used to be 20 years ago. I feel like the business of the NBA is no longer catering to the basketball fans. They already know the basketball fan will come and watch, so they pump up the club music and try to turn it into a dance party. Whatever happens in the tunnels at half time is obviously more important / entertaining than the game, because the lower bowel is empty for the 3rd quarter. The fans never even got into the game, until it was too late -- and by then we were all just groaning at the missed free-throws.
> 
> The lesson learned here: never buy tickets to the second game of a back-to-back. Without Conley, the Jazz do not distribute the ball. They dribble too much, turn it over more, and take more bad shots. And, the biggest tragedy of all: They leave Gobert out. You know it's bad when your 14 year old daughter asks "Dad, why won't they pass it to Gobert?".
> 
> Oh well. At least we got to dance and eat some expensive popcorn out of a souvenir Jazz popcorn bucket with the new Jazz colors (black and white).
> 
> meh.


I was at the Spurs game. I couldn't agree more about the games being different. I felt like I went to a club and there happened to be a basketball game going on at the same time. Even on the first game of their back-to-back, there wasn't much ball distribution. There were at least five times where Gobert had a mismatch under the hoop with someone a foot shorter than him and the "shooters" decided to chuck up a brick. Gobert is money from one or two feet, why not take the 10 points instead of throwing up bombs?

Another person I was disappointed in was Mitchell. Watching his pregame routine made me less of a fan of him - tantrums, telling other players to get out of his way, etc. was disheartening to say the least. This dude makes millions of dollars a year, throwing a ball into a hoop/basket, but he looked like a spoiled brat out there in warmups.


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## Vanilla

CPAjeff said:


> Another person I was disappointed in was Mitchell. Watching his pregame routine made me less of a fan of him - tantrums, telling other players to get out of his way, etc. was disheartening to say the least. This dude makes millions of dollars a year, throwing a ball into a hoop/basket, but he looked like a spoiled brat out there in warmups.


That is interesting and could not be further from my experience at a game last month. Below is a picture from my seat (no big deal…), so you can tell we had a pretty good vantage point for warmups. We could see and hear basically everything. He was very engaged with teammates and very positive overall, actually. In fact, on this picture below he was taking a shot from a kid fan sitting on the baseline. He did that multiple times: threw the ball up into the stands, had the kid pass it back to him and he’d take the shot off the “entry pass” from the kid. Afterward I was mad at myself for not taking a video of it all because it was a really cool thing to watch.


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## Vanilla

Interestingly enough, I also was able to hear this entire exchange between a 9-10 year old kid and Kyle Lowry. It made me understand that players have WAY too much ability to control fans and even lie about something to get a fan kicked out. Lowry had been whining the whole game. Not just common NBA player whining which permeates the game so prevalently now, but serious whining every time down the court. The refs had even warned him about it. This little kid says, “Hey Lowry” and rubs his eyes like a cry baby sign. He doesn’t say another word. Just a cry baby sign. Lowry’s response? “You can take that back to your mama’s ?#$$¥!” And then went and told the ref to eject this kid and his dad because they were being inappropriate.

It was seconds before half time, so they called security over and they said they’d address it when play stopped. It’s a good thing they had the entire thing on video, and NBA security let them go back after half and watch the game with a promise to not engage Mr Senstive Lowry in the second half. If they didn’t have the video evidence they’d have got lifetime bans from NBA arenas because Lowry complained and lied about them. NBA security even said he’d be filing a report on Lowry to the NBA, which I doubt did anything. It’s too bad players have that much sway, and makes me less inclined to believe a loser like Westbrook when he makes allegations. I used to be a fan of Kyle Lowry, always respected his game. Now I’ll always view him as a baby and a giant putz!


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## CPAjeff

Dang Vanilla - I should've been a lawyer . . . great looking seats! Maybe Mitchell was just having a bad day on Friday.


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## Vanilla

CPAjeff said:


> Dang Vanilla - I should've been a lawyer . . . great looking seats! Maybe Mitchell was just having a bad day on Friday.


Oh, I didn't pay for these. It's good to have friends in high places, though!  

The crowd was pretty bad most of this game, but the team was pretty bad most of the game. It's tough for the crowd to be hyped when the team is completely flat. The 4th quarter this place got LOUD though, how The Viv is supposed to be, and the team made a decent come back to make it a close game after sucking for 3+ quarters. The Viv is a special arena when the team is rolling in a big game. That place gets rockin'.


----------



## CPAjeff

Vanilla said:


> Oh, I didn't pay for these. It's good to have friends in high places, though!


Ah that's right, I forgot . . . you and Ryan Smith are old college buddies, right?!?! 

When the Jazz are firing on all cylinders, they are a tough team to beat. However, even playing their best basketball, I doubt they'll be able to get past the Suns or the Warriors when it comes time playoff time.


----------



## Vanilla

CPAjeff said:


> Ah that's right, I forgot . . . you and Ryan Smith are old college buddies, right?!?!


Out of all of the dirty rotten things people have said about me on the internet in my lifetime, saying I'm a BYU alum has to be the worst! I'm hurt right now. That is downright hurtful!


----------



## 2full

Tickets for seats like that is the only reason I miss the Grocery Business. Used to get great seats from vendors, suppliers, and buyers 2 or three times year. 
Had front row under the basket and 2nd row behind the visiting bench a couple of times each. 
You definitely get to see and hear everything that is going on. Was a lot of fun.


----------



## Vanilla

Got word that Spida signed my nephew’s shoes during pregame tonight. That’s pretty cool for a 9 year old!


----------



## PBH

Hey Vanilla -- what do all you high-rollers do back in the tunnel during half time? buffet? drinks? dance party?

And why doesn't anyone come back out until half way through the 3rd quarter?
I find it kind of sad that on TV the third quarter looks like Vivint is empty....


----------



## PBH

How 'bout that performance with Conley back in the lineup?

Of course, we tried to give the game away during "Don time", and after a few minutes of brick-city iso-ball (and foolish turnovers), we strung together some key team possessions and pulled out the win.
(other teams know they have comebackability against us...)


Gobert with a 20/20. I say we name a monument after him.

#RGGSENM


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Hey Vanilla -- what do all you high-rollers do back in the tunnel during half time? buffet? drinks? dance party?


I had a little red wrist band that basically made me king of the world. All you can eat and drink, for free. Tri-tip was on the menu the game we went, it was really good. Many different kinds of ice cream, appetizers, and soda machines for refills. 



PBH said:


> And why doesn't anyone come back out until half way through the 3rd quarter?
> I find it kind of sad that on TV the third quarter looks like Vivint is empty....


I don't know. As nice as the "perks" that came with the ticket were, I was there to watch a basketball game, so I didn't miss one second. I'm guessing most of the people with those types of tickets are being wined and dined, clients and/or customers, and people are just trying to impress others with the extra perks, maybe? Jazz arena is certainly not unique for this. I've been shocked to watch playoff games where fans are rolling back into their seats half way through the 3rd quarter. It's almost every game.


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> (other teams know they have comebackability against us...)


Is there a team that this does not apply to? NBA, the ultimate game of runs...so they say.


----------



## PBH

probably right. But even Thurl was saying this in the first quarter: step on the gas, extend the lead (40?) and don't give them hope of coming back. Teams know they can come back, especially in the early parts of the game. A 20 point lead is not insurmountable.


----------



## Vanilla

How many 40 point games do you see in the NBA? Even when the really good teams play the really bad teams you don't see that, because it's really hard to do. 

A win is a win. Don't get too up or down on something happening in December in the NBA. You can't win a championship in December.


----------



## PBH

Gobert goes down with "health and safety protocol" and the Jazz defense goes with him. This is going to be interesting to watch the Jazz without Gobert for a few games. It will also be interesting to see when he comes back, and watch to see if our defense improves back to an elite level. Maybe this will give us some traction?

#RGGSENM


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> Gobert goes down with "health and safety protocol" and the Jazz defense goes with him. This is going to be interesting to watch the Jazz without Gobert for a few games. It will also be interesting to see when he comes back, and watch to see if our defense improves back to an elite level. Maybe this will give us some traction?
> 
> #RGGSENM


There is your exhibit "A". The Jazz give up nearly 80 second half points to the worst offense in the NBA and lose. I really don't think the other elite teams fear us TBH. 

But yeah, #RGGSENM


----------



## Vanilla

Agreed that teams don’t fear the Jazz. That type of “respect” is earned, and not in the regular season. Everyone in the NBA has to earn their stripes. Nothing will simply be given. 

The disconcerting thing is the Pistons are a team they should beat even without Rudy. But again it’s January, not May. So that is the silver lining if you want to find one.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> The disconcerting thing is the Pistons are a team they should beat even without Rudy.


they rely too much on "talk". Bolerjack and Thurl were talking about Donovan "calling himself out" after the loss to Indiana, and how that's what leaders do. They then went on to say that this game [vs. Detroit] is a "statement" game, and that we would hold them to <100 points and should route them. Talk. 

My opinion: Donovan has done nothing, but thinks he's become a superstar. Gobert has earned a few honors (DPoY), but continues to play with a chip on his shoulder. It doesn't hurt that Gobert's game is constantly being attacked by other NBA players (ie: Patrick Beverly). It's frustrating that teams / players at this level continue to fall into the same trap that bantam and high school players fall into: they think they have a game won based on win / loss records and standings.

Lately, I'd prefer to watch Elijah Hughes, Trent Forrest, Jared Butler, House Jr., Fitts.... play. Nobody told any of those guys that it's January. They play like it means something.


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Lately, I'd prefer to watch Elijah Hughes, Trent Forrest, Jared Butler, House Jr., Fitts.... play. *Nobody told any of those guys that it's January. They play like it means something.*


And lost to Toronto. So.... (insert a shoulder shrug here)


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> And lost to Toronto. So.... (insert a shoulder shrug here)


I recognize they lost to Toronto -- but, I still give them credit for playing hard. This was a G league team vs. a playoff contender with a full roster -- and that G league team kicked their butts in that first half. Unfortunately, the G league team just couldn't keep up in the second half - but not due to effort. Contrast that the Jazz vs. Detroit in the second half. That same level of effort was not there.

I can accept losses. I can't stand when guys just stand around doing nothing getting their rear-ends kicked.


----------



## Vanilla

We can get them the "you played hard and won the first half" award then! That sounds fun. 

Talk to me in May and June. Those are the only trophies I care about. It's fun and maddening to follow along, but just like that tear they went on to win 8 in a row and were so dominant meant very little in how I will ultimately feel about the season, the Detroit game means equally little in how I'll ultimately feel about the season. It all comes down to wins when it counts. They've yet to prove they can do it.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> I recognize they lost to Toronto -- but, I still give them credit for playing hard. This was a G league team vs. a playoff contender with a full roster -- and that G league team kicked their butts in that first half. Unfortunately, the G league team just couldn't keep up in the second half - but not due to effort. Contrast that the Jazz vs. Detroit in the second half. That same level of effort was not there.
> 
> I can accept losses. I can't stand when guys just stand around doing nothing getting their rear-ends kicked.


The NBA has been calling what you describe the Hassan Whiteside "experience". Survivable when subbing, disastrous if we are heavily dependent on something more. 

The other thing is that many of our stars simply aren't good defenders. (Bogie, Mitchell, Clarkson) The fact gets exposed when Gobert is gone. 

I listened to the last 6-7 minutes of the game on the radio driving home from work. It was nice to have Locke's analysis of the situation instead of Blunderjack's typical drivel. Locke was unsparing in his criticism of the defensive (and offensive) effort of the team.


----------



## Vanilla

You guys really prefer Locke to Boler? (Or anyone, for that matter!?!?!) His voice annoys me more than is healthy, probably. His ego is of other-worldly proportions, and it shows through every time I hear him talk. 

I don't think we are at the deep end of the pool when it comes to local sports media, especially sports radio. We are wading in the shallow end of that gene pool, for sure.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> We can get them the "you played hard and won the first half" award then! That sounds fun.


Effort.
I'm not looking for a trophy. I'm looking for something entertaining to watch. The games vs Indiana and Detroit were not enjoyable. The game vs Toronto was. Effort was the difference.



Vanilla said:


> You guys really prefer Locke to Boler?


YES!! 
I'll give you the voice argument. Locke may be annoying, but he provides intelligent, relevant, and interesting comments regarding the Jazz. I appreciate him. Bolerjack never provides anything meaningful outside of "well said" or "to your point", after which he screws it up by contradicting whatever point was being made. He has it in his head that cliches are good to use. He doesn't know how to ask a question -- rather, he asks a question then answers his own question then pauses for the interviewee to answer his statement. He refuses to see what a referee calls, and makes his own call then is confused when something else happens. He never let's the viewer know what is happening (that we can't see from the TV), and has a very hard time keeping up with who is actually on the court (-- granted, this year they are doing a lot of the road games remotely, so he's disadvantaged like we are).

I have to laugh when Holly Rowe starts talking, then Thurl joins in, and we begin an intelligent and meaningful discussion about something -- and Bolerjack screws it all up by joining in.


dump Bolerjack, bring back Boone and keep Thurl and Rowe. Keep Locke too -- we need stats.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

PBH said:


> they rely too much on "talk". Bolerjack and Thurl were talking about Donovan "calling himself out" after the loss to Indiana, and how that's what leaders do. They then went on to say that this game [vs. Detroit] is a "statement" game, and that we would hold them to <100 points and should route them. Talk.
> 
> My opinion: Donovan has done nothing, but thinks he's become a superstar. Gobert has earned a few honors (DPoY), but continues to play with a chip on his shoulder. It doesn't hurt that Gobert's game is constantly being attacked by other NBA players (ie: Patrick Beverly). It's frustrating that teams / players at this level continue to fall into the same trap that bantam and high school players fall into: they think they have a game won based on win / loss records and standings.
> 
> Lately, I'd prefer to watch Elijah Hughes, Trent Forrest, Jared Butler, House Jr., Fitts.... play. Nobody told any of those guys that it's January. They play like it means something.


I tend to agree. Rudy is a leader that will hold teammates accountable, but he’s less popular among teammates. Donovan is popular among teammates, but isn’t a leader who holds teammates accountable. Donovan for sure isn’t the same rookie we drafted. I’ve yet to see him take accountability for the teams struggles. Generally as he’s done several times, he blames other people. Blames Rudy for Covid, blames the medical staff. If they aren’t playing well it’s always “we” postgame, not “me”. Quins a great X’s and O’s Coach, but he’s not a very fiery coach. He doesn’t defend his players with refs much, he has good relationships with players but imo also doesn’t hold them very accountable, or is very selective about accountability.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Catherder said:


> The NBA has been calling what you describe the Hassan Whiteside "experience". Survivable when subbing, disastrous if we are heavily dependent on something more.
> 
> The other thing is that many of our stars simply aren't good defenders. (Bogie, Mitchell, Clarkson) The fact gets exposed when Gobert is gone.
> 
> I listened to the last 6-7 minutes of the game on the radio driving home from work. It was nice to have Locke's analysis of the situation instead of Blunderjack's typical drivel. Locke was unsparing in his criticism of the defensive (and offensive) effort of the team.


You don’t have to be good defenders to win last night. That Detroit team is statistically one of the worst teams in the last couple decades offensively. Last night was a full on effort and accountability issue.


----------



## Vanilla

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Donovan is popular among teammates, but isn’t a leader who holds teammates accountable. Donovan for sure isn’t the same rookie we drafted. I’ve yet to see him take accountability for the teams struggles. Generally as he’s done several times, he blames other people. Blames Rudy for Covid, blames the medical staff. If they aren’t playing well it’s always “we” postgame, not “me”.


This feels racist to me...


----------



## PBH

#1Eye -- I agree with what you said about Rudy. 


I have to disagree a little with what you said about Donovan. I do think he's a good leader, and I think he does take accountability. I do not believe that he blames teammates, and rather will place blame on himself when talking with the media. My problem with Donovan is that he tries to do more than he's able to do -- and the Jazz (as well as the NBA) encourage this. They _want_ superstars to score from anywhere on the court. They want someone to "take over" a ballgame. They want players to average 30 pts / game. This does NOT fit Rudy Gobert's game - but it does fit Donovan. And, if I'm being honest, I don't think wins / losses are as important as selling jerseys. If we have an electric, charismatic, and popular player, like Donovan, then the Jazz and the league are happy.

Donovan is very smart. He's a very good player too. He knows he has a good thing going here in Utah, and he has a bridge named after him because of it. But the Jazz won't win a championship because of Donovan's defense.


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Donovan is very smart. He's a very good player too. He knows he has a good thing going here in Utah, and he has a bridge named after him because of it. But the Jazz won't win a championship because of Donovan's defense.


But you hope they can because of his offense! Otherwise, we're screwed.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

.


----------



## Catherder

Another fabulous effort tonight. 

They might get Detroit on Friday but then they play Warriors, Suns, Suns, Grizzlies. We could be closer to the play-in game by the end of next week than homecourt. What a freefall.


----------



## PBH

I took Vanilla's advice -- I'm not watching until May or June when it won't matter any more.


----------



## CPAjeff

PBH said:


> I took Vanilla's advice -- I'm not watching until May or June when it won't matter any more.


At the rate the Jazz are playing, they won't be playing in May or June. . .


----------



## caddis8

Catherder said:


> Another fabulous effort tonight.
> 
> They might get Detroit on Friday but then they play Warriors, Suns, Suns, Grizzlies. We could be closer to the play-in game by the end of next week than homecourt. What a freefall.


There's something about this team that isn't team-y and very predictable. They play down to the level of their competition. Several members of the team couldn't guard a fencepost standing still. If the offense is bad, play defense. Allowing that many 3's (and wide open ones) reminded me of the Clippers fiasco last playoffs. I think there may be some moves made around the trade deadline to improve defensively. 

What confuses me is they get it together against the good teams and play well and then lay an egg against teams they should beat easily. That's mental discipline to me. 

COVID was tough on them, and I don't know how severe some of it was, but it takes a while to recover. (Personally x2 or maybe x3) 

Clarkson has not had a good year and feels like he's pressing trying to create his game. Mitchell is playing too much hero ball down the stretch of the game. O'Neal for being a defensive specialist needs to improve the specialist part. Bogey is ok, but inconsistent. Gobert should be recognized as the team MVP for what he does on and off the ball offensively and defensively. I really wish that some new blood could see court time, like Butler. Never know what he could do if he doesn't get the minutes. Forrest is ok, but I think Butler could and will be a better option in the future. Conley is surprisingly good, but limited because of size (and age/health). 

The whole thing is predictable. Drive/penetrate panick, kickout for contested shot or turnover. When it's done well it's pretty. When not, well, last night's ugly afair and the Lakers uglier affair. I thought that game was worse than last night, personally.


----------



## Vanilla

Here is my overall assessment of this Jazz team, and it’s not just this year but also last year. This is who they are:

When at full strength and hitting on all cylinders, they are a top 2-3 team in the NBA and a legitimate title contender. Hard stop. 

Take away anything out of the equation, meaning a player or things not going near perfectly, they are an average team and not a contender. Hard stop. 

Teams are not always full strength, and are not always hitting on all cylinders. So they are simply not a title contender in the large scheme of things. The best we can hope for is they get lucky. They get lucky to be 100% full strength come playoff time, and not lose anyone along the way for anything during the playoffs. If that happens, they’re toast. Once we get the health in the playoffs (not likely, but assuming for sake of discussion we get it) I like their chances to be hitting on all cylinders more than not in a 7 game series. 

But if things are just perfect, or at least near perfect, this team can’t get it done. Which means they aren’t legit title contender without getting some luck.


----------



## Vanilla

But I’ll reiterate, if they go on a run to the Finals nobody is going to care about this stretch here in January. Wake me up in May.


----------



## caddis8

Vanilla said:


> But I’ll reiterate, if they go on a run to the Finals nobody is going to care about this stretch here in January. Wake me up in May.


Not wrong. I would say that January is a recipe for what other teams will do in May. This slump won't make the season, but it could significantly impact it. Their inability to defend the perimeter will be a factor in May.


----------



## Vanilla

caddis8 said:


> Their inability to defend the perimeter will be a factor in May.


Agreed. Unless they’re fully healthy and hitting on all cylinders, and then we won’t care about that! 😜


----------



## caddis8

Vanilla said:


> Agreed. Unless they’re fully healthy and hitting on all cylinders, and then we won’t care about that! 😜


Defense wins championships. Playoffs come and the game gets more physical, and they're not a team built around physicality. That's not a conspiracy complaint at all. It's across the board. The physicality really impairs them firing on all cylinders. It has happened (Jazz vs Nuggets in the bubble) and the 1st two games against LAC last year. But then teams started extending, blitzing, and doubling screens and hampering the motion offense, which becomes stagnant. 

Hopefully it doesn't matter. I like to watch good basketball.


----------



## Vanilla

You're not wrong, caddis. This team has flaws that won't be fixed by one trade. But they also have some positives that can overcome those flaws, and we as fans just have to hope they can do it for a sustained time in the playoffs and catch fire, or we'll all be a bit salty come that time. 

But....you're not wrong!


----------



## PBH

ugh.


By this time, we should have all the bugs worked out. But we don't. We're going the wrong direction. It makes you wonder who's in a better situation with the tank plug: Lakers vs. Jazz

I'm guessing the Jazz will make the Lakers look really good [again] Thursday night. The Lakers may not take the bait -- I think they're throwing in the towel at this point. We all know Lebron doesn't want a play-in.

Like CPAJeff mentioned, I don't think the Jazz will be playing in May.


----------



## 3arabians

I was disappointed and shocked that they found a way to choke in the same way they lost in the playoffs last year by blowing another 25 point second half lead to the clips. I also kept telling myself they wouldn’t let it happen this time given their history of blowing leads this season and would show the fans they have what it takes to hold a lead and finish a game. 

But, it’s all out of my system now. I can comfortably say I won’t be shocked by this team blowing another huge lead again. They lack mental toughness and it’s too late now to fix it for this year. I’ve always liked Quinn but maybe it’s time for Alex Jensen to get a shot at coaching this team. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vanilla

I would strongly suggest not having your hopes up even a little bit to seeing the Jazz playing in May. I'm shocked at how flawed they have remained. There really must be something to the locker room discord that has been talked about in hushed tones mostly. This team just doesn't have "it." 

I've long said (on this forum even) a team with Rudy as their highest paid player could never win a title. I think I've even said any team with Rudy as one of their top two paid players could not win a title. I don't blame the Jazz for paying him, he earned it, but he can't be the cornerstone for a title contending team. He absolutely has an elite skill, but the game has passed him by with the elite skill he possesses. Not sure Donovan is ever going to be the #1 on a title contending team either. They need an alpha, and that person is not on their current roster.


----------



## Packout

They need Bojan back. That sounds crazy, but it is true.
It feels like Don's personality has changed over the last 2 years and he wants to be number one on a team that was built as a team- not around an individual player. When they pass the ball- they once called it the blender- they get others into good situations. One-on-one just doesn't cut it with this team. And how has Conley not averaged 7+ assists in a passing offense? They don't pass efficiently... 
It also feels like they don't use Gobert to get easy buckets. The guy finishes when given opportunity. 
Ainge shows up and it messes with the vibe. Then they trade Joe and it messes with the vibe. I've been around some professional athletes and the vibe is more important than most people give it credit. Their play is disappointing, but I gave up the high aspirations for the Jazz years ago and am much more content with the outcomes.


----------



## RandomElk16

Same old Jazz 🤣


----------



## Critter

Since the game was on TNT last night I didn't pay that much attention to it. I'd check the score and saw that Utah was up by 20 so I paid even less attention to it, that is until there was 5 minutes left and I saw that the lead was down to the single digits. I watched the last few minutes of it and saw that it had turned into a one on one show. Mitchel would dribble down and shoot and miss, Conley would get the ball and shoot and miss. Then when I saw that fowl on Rudy I knew that the game was over. 

But when they play the game and pass the ball to get to a open player they usually win, but this one on one stuff needs to stop if they plan on going very far.


----------



## Catherder

I think there is a great deal of truth to this opinion piece. 









Commentary: Jazz are a bad vibes team. It’s up to them to change the narrative


The Jazz have been saying all season long that they need to do better and be better — and time is up




www.deseret.com





It looks that one can stick a fork in them. They are done. 🍴


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> I
> 
> I've long said (on this forum even) a team with Rudy as their highest paid player could never win a title. I think I've even said any team with Rudy as one of their top two paid players could not win a title. I don't blame the Jazz for paying him, he earned it, but he can't be the cornerstone for a title contending team. He absolutely has an elite skill, but the game has passed him by with the elite skill he possesses. Not sure Donovan is ever going to be the #1 on a title contending team either. They need an alpha, and that person is not on their current roster.


I just don't agree here. I think Rudy IS the cornerstone, but is not used like he should be. When Rudy is involved in the offense, the Jazz win. When the Jazz play iso one-on-one ball, they lose. 

You may be right in a way about the game passing him by -- or, rather, maybe the league. The NBA is all about a larger court (compared to other leagues / Europe), spreading the floor (removing the defense), and playing one-on-one. It is supposed to be more "exciting". More razzle-dazzle. That does not fit Gobert. 

Take Rudy out of the game and the Jazz lose. Those stats are readily available. 
The same cannot be said of Mitchel (granted, you never said that Mitchell was key).

could they use an alpha? Absolutely. Do they need an alpha to win a title? Only if they give up on the team-ball concept. We watched that movie last year during the regular season and subsequent playoff exit, and appear to be watching the sequel to the playoff exit this year.


----------



## Vanilla

I don’t know a single championship team any time recently that didn’t have an alpha. Educate me if I’m missing one. Yes, they still have to play team basketball, but they are still alphas. We got a few betas and below. You have to go back to what…04, maybe? And I can make an argument Chauncey and Ben were alphas. Even then it’s a one-off if we concede they were not, and then you go decades again without an alpha. Bring me an alpha Danny. That is your mission.

We’ve been through this before, and I know we’ll probably never see eye to eye on it, but I’ve got results to back up my opinion, you really don’t. Rudy has an elite skill set, he absolutely does. It’s just one that can be readily neutralized by a team working to neutralize it. I’m sorry, your building block can’t be a guy that can be schemed completely out of a series by the other team. That will NEVER work in pro sports. Ever. We have seen multiple times now where teams have just schemed Rudy out of the game and therefore series, and Jazz lose. And this year teams really caught onto that and have done it regularly throughout the year with their small ball lineups.

Remember when the Jazz used to own Paul George? I long for those days…


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> Remember when the Jazz used to own Paul George? I long for those days…


Yep. Back when we had Joe Ingles.






I'm not arguing contrary to your last post. You are correct -- I think this is a fault of our league. Scoring is more exciting (to some). So our rules and court are set up specifically to encourage more scoring -- ie: remove the defense's ability to prevent scoring. Ask Luca. He's been open about this. 

I want to see defense. I want to see post play. I want to see someone take the open layup vs. kick it out to a guy standing outside the arc.

Long live #RudyGobertGrandStaircaseEscalanteNationalMonument #RGGSENM


----------



## caddis8

Vanilla said:


> I don’t know a single championship team any time recently that didn’t have an alpha. Educate me if I’m missing one.


I would argue that the Spurs in 2014 didn't really have an alpha. Tony Parker was good, but on the tail end of his career. Duncan was very good, but quiet and I would argue not an alpha, also on the tail end of his career. This was the very begining of Kawhi Leonard being awesome and hadn't reached alpha status yet- the finals were his breakout performance if I remember correctly. That that team beat the Heat (LeBron Super Team) 4-1. They did it by playing team, role based ball. 

I don't disagree on many of the points with switching defense which limits ball movement and forces iso ball. When that happens, the team spreads out to 5 out and then tries to drive the ball, allowing teams to collapse on the ball. Mitchell is ok at that, but he becomes one dimensional, and the rest of the roster really isn't built for that. Turnovers are costly and Donovan has too many trying to do too much to will his team to win. George had 4 steals. The Jazz missed 14 foul shots. Clippers missed 4. . 

My beef is that Quinn has his "closers" that he finishes the game off with. He's predictable. What I saw in the game against the Clippers was the Jazz trying to not lose the game. Clippers made some significant adjustments and that hurt the Jazz. The Jazz didn't make those adjustments and kept trying the same thing. Royce O'Neal can't guard George. He's too long and athletic, and that's what the team is missing. They have been missing a stretch 4 for several years and that would win more games and maybe a championship. I don't know what the answer is to get that player, but it's badly needed. They get out athleticked and hustled. Conley isn't that guy. Jazz went 2-12 from 3 the second half. That's partly because of good LA defense, and partly because the Jazz were wearing the clock down trying to close the game out and throwing up bad shots at the end of the shot clock.


----------



## CPAjeff

caddis8 said:


> I would argue that the Spurs in 2014 didn't really have an alpha.


I understand what you're saying, but the Spurs alpha in 2014 was Coach Pop! The way he was able to keep that core group of guys together, playing at an incredibly high level, is simply amazing! With this new wave of "AAU babies," as Charles Barkley called them, is terrible for the NBA.


----------



## caddis8

CPAjeff said:


> I understand what you're saying, but the Spurs alpha in 2014 was Coach Pop!


I will accept that answer. The dude can squeeze talent out of a piece of wood and have it perform well. Fitting he got his big victory this year over the Jazz who blew a big lead that game too. AAU babies, that's pretty correct. 

I. HATE. ISO. BALL.


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Yep. Back when we had Joe Ingles.


Except for that one playoff series last season, I guess...


----------



## Vanilla

If anyone is going to argue that Tim Duncan was not an alpha (let alone Manu or Parker), then I don't know that we can have a rational discussion about this topic. Duncan is probably one of the 10, and certainly top 20 basketball players to ever live on planet earth. He was an alpha. Alphas don't have to be loud. He's the greatest PF to ever play the game of basketball. Yes, Jazz fans...I said it. Deal with it, because it's true!

But yes, that Spurs team in 2014 was an absolute buzz saw. They had an alpha that preached team first and lived it. It was remarkable basketball to watch, even though I'm not a big Spurs fan. Like I said above, you still need to play team basketball. Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Isaiah, Steph, KD, and the list could go on...all alphas, and all believe(d) in team basketball. These two things are not mutually exclusive. And you won't win a title without an alpha. 

Bring me an alpha, Danny! Bring me an alpha.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> Except for that one playoff series last season, I guess...


yep. I know Joe isn't / wasn't the same player he was 2-3 years ago.

But he's one piece of the puzzle we are missing. Who do you replace with? Jae Crowder? The Jazz could use an instigator / tough guy. Donovan Mitchell's best imitation "Lebron mean mug" doesn't count.


I'll concede to Vanilla.

Personally, I found myself more interested in watching when we had a starting group of Paschall, Hughes, Whiteside, Forrest, and Butler (with a bench of Pelle, Fitts, House, and Azubuike) than I am right now.


----------



## caddis8

Vanilla said:


> If anyone is going to argue that Tim Duncan was not an alpha (let alone Manu or Parker), then I don't know that we can have a rational discussion about this topic. Duncan is probably one of the 10, and certainly top 20 basketball players to ever live on planet earth. He was an alpha. Alphas don't have to be loud. He's the greatest PF to ever play the game of basketball. Yes, Jazz fans...I said it. Deal with it, because it's true!


I think we may have different definitions of alpha, but I understand what you're saying and can agree with you. Yesterday's alphas were team first. Duncan was a quiet leader and great player. He's certainly in the discussion for best PF to ever play and one of the best players to ever play. He was quietly great. 

I'm not sure today's alpha's are team first. There are a few right now. That's one thing I loved about that 2014 team- they played team ball and beat the crap out of the Miami Superteam. Look at the Laker's "Superteam." That's not team ball. Even some of the triple double machines, in my opinion, aren't team first. They're stat padders.


----------



## RandomElk16

I don't know that they have a singular issue you can just fix. They have a unique roster construction. Gobert makes $40M and can't get you 15 unless you have dump offs and lobs. Between that and their heavy reliance on the jump shots like Critter said - their offense can go cold so fast. When those shots don't hit I just don't feel like they create enough rim and mid range pressure. I know Rudy is the "cornerstone" but it's still a unique position as someone pointed out. 


Lastly - for a defensively stout team, they still mentally fall apart and the defense goes to crap. The vibes thing seems at least somewhat true.


----------



## Packout

Gobert is much better than people give him credit for- on offense. He is shooting over 70% from the field and almost 70% from the line. He had 2 or 3 shots in the second half during the Clippers game- but he only averages around 8 shots a game- many coming from his offensive rebounds. Its absolutely nuts he does not get more touches to shoot. They run very few plays for him. The dude can get a bucket when needed with some simple plays. Problem is Quinn doesn't run them for him or the team doesn't.

Watch the new management destroy the vibe even more over the next couple months. It is rough now, hold on for the rest of the ride- one which won't bring any Alpha to Utah who can make an extreme difference. Well maybe they can trade for Jimmy Butler..... (sarcasm intended)


----------



## Packout

....


----------



## Catherder

I think Gobert and Mitchell can be pieces to a championship roster, but I'm not sure at this point if they can be that on* this* roster. The scheme that makes the Jazz defense vulnerable isn't really exploiting Rudy, who actually can hold his own one-on-one, but everyone else. Except for Royce, all the rest of the Jazz mainstays are frankly minus defenders and it painfully shows when Gobert either is out or schemed away from the paint. Zach Lowe on ESPN recently had a segment on this that was really good but I can't pull up a link at the moment.

Additionally, Quinn is very good at initial preparation and scheming but seems to struggle to counter the counter. I felt coach Lue demonstrated this last year in the playoffs, although with Conley and Mitchell going around on one leg each, it may haven't have been too hard. Word is he might be off to babysit Westbrook and Lebron next year, so we may get to see.

I think the vibe thing is real plus the league has adjusted to what the Jazz did so well last year. It was a huge disappointment that Mitchell and Conley were both dinged for the playoffs last year as I think that could have made a difference then. Now, Ingles is gone, Conley is a year older, Clarkson cooled off, Mitchell is one year closer to the Big Apple, Bogie is hurt again, and Gobert is Gobert plus the league has adjusted to us. We see the effects and the window shutting you heard was the opportunity to make some noise in the postseason.


----------



## Vanilla

Packout said:


> Watch the new management destroy the vibe even more over the next couple months. It is rough now, hold on for the rest of the ride- one which won't bring any Alpha to Utah who can make an extreme difference. Well maybe they can trade for Jimmy Butler..... (sarcasm intended)


The only issue I have with the analysis is this team does not have a good vibe to destroy. That ship sailed a long time ago this season. (And maybe in the past, but was just covered by winning...) This team is not a team right now, and I doubt they have what it takes to become one again. There is a leadership void on this squad, and that includes the head coach and two highest paid players. 

Here is the link Catherder posted yesterday. It's worth a read if you didn't read it before: Commentary: Jazz are a bad vibes team. It’s up to them to change the narrative


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

This iteration of the Jazz is pretty close to over tbh. Mitchell will demand a trade this summer or next, I’d put a lot of money on that.


----------



## RandomElk16

Packout said:


> Gobert is much better than people give him credit for- on offense. He is shooting over 70% from the field and almost 70% from the line. He had 2 or 3 shots in the second half during the Clippers game- but he only averages around 8 shots a game- many coming from his offensive rebounds. Its absolutely nuts he does not get more touches to shoot. They run very few plays for him. The dude can get a bucket when needed with some simple plays. Problem is Quinn doesn't run them for him or the team doesn't.
> 
> Watch the new management destroy the vibe even more over the next couple months. It is rough now, hold on for the rest of the ride- one which won't bring any Alpha to Utah who can make an extreme difference. Well maybe they can trade for Jimmy Butler..... (sarcasm intended)


I am not a die hard, but when I watch him it seems like they have to run the plays like I said to get him going (dump offs and lobs) but outside of that he isn't a creator center like Jokic, Embiid, or Giannis. I am not saying he isn't good, but I also don't think you can run offense through him. That's tough when he makes $40M. I could be wrong and it could be Quinn's fault. 

I agree with Vanilla, there isn't any vibe to destroy. These guys are constantly taking subtle shots at eachother anytime adversity hits. 

There just seems to be a lack of culture. It has been more obvious and progressively downhill since Gobert and Covid.


----------



## Packout

Vanilla said:


> Here is the link Catherder posted yesterday. It's worth a read if you didn't read it before: Commentary: Jazz are a bad vibes team. It’s up to them to change the narrative


I haven't read the article, but you posting the link with that title makes me feel like a real sports savant with my post #93.


----------



## Vanilla

It’s worth your time to read it if this topic interests you. And a savant, you are!


----------



## Vanilla

If anyone watched basketball tonight, I sure hope it was Duke-UNC. What a basketball game!

As for the local team, another 20 point lead blown. No backbone on this team. No heart. No balls. Bring in an alpha.


----------



## 3arabians

Vanilla said:


> If anyone watched basketball tonight, I sure hope it was Duke-UNC. What a basketball game!
> 
> As for the local team, another 20 point lead blown. No backbone on this team. No heart. No balls. Bring in an alpha.


Ya I was all tied up in duke vs NC and didn’t watch a single minute of the spazz game. Bummed coached K didn’t go out on top but this tar heels team is pretty good come tournament time. I don’t think they’ll be any match for Kansas though. The Jayhawks looked real good! 

Oh the Jazz……someone just put them out of their misery already. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Catherder

Vanilla said:


> As for the local team, another 20 point lead blown. No backbone on this team. No heart. No balls. Bring in *a backhoe*.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## PBH

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Mitchell will demand a trade this summer or next, I’d put a lot of money on that.


I think Jazz fans should demand that Mitchell be traded.


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> I think Jazz fans should demand that Mitchell be traded.


I saw some stats that may be of interest to you, PBH.

Joe Ingles has passed the ball to Rudy Gobert 174 times this season. (Before yesterday's game...) Donovan Mitchell has passed the ball to Rudy Gobert 151 times this season. Ingles hasn't been on the Jazz for over 2 months now.

Trey Young has made 152 assists to Clint Capella this season. Not just passes, but assists. He has made more assists to his big man that has a very similar offensive skill set to Rudy as Donovan has passed to Rudy total. That seems like an issue... 

There is clearly an issue of trust going on here, and you simply can't have that between your two best players or you are going to be a mess. Honestly, I put this on Quin and also the front office. The owner is paying these two roughly a combined $75 million this year. Get them in a room and get them on the same page for crying out loud! Quin is the coach. If you see a guy regularly looking off Rudy when he's open (like has been widely reported and shown from the Warriors game when he sealed Klay under the basket on a switch), then you sit that guy down. I don't care if he's your best offensive player. You sit him down and coach him up. Your team is better when the ball is moving. EVERYONE knows this for the Jazz, yet Quin doesn't enforce it. I put 75% of this on Quin and I'm fine if he goes and coaches the mess of the Lakers next year.


----------



## PBH

This goes right along with what we've watched all year: first half = good team ball. second half = spread the floor and iso-ball.

Just listen to the Jazz announcers if you need further evidence:
Thurl Bailey: "There's a mouse in the house! You gotta reward the big man! That's a missed opportunity."
Bolerjack: "It's Don time!"


----------



## Catherder

One final observation that goes along with Mitchell and the alpha discussion. I do think Donovan thinks of himself as that alpha. Outside comparisons to D Wade by local and national media since he came into the league, as well as early success, certainly couldn't help but feed into that. Coaching also likely plays a role. Anyway, when I watch him, especially in crunch time, he seems to be pressing. I think it affects his results when it counts most. I feel if coaching or a mentor (like D Wade himself) could get to him and tell him to trust his teammates more and not feel he has to do "Don Time", he would be a better player. Wherever he plays.

.As you guys have noted, the "Rudy thing" is a reflection of coaching above all and another example that Quin may be on his way to other climes.


----------



## CPAjeff

Every time I hear “Don time” I can’t help but think, “Well there goes the chances of winning.”


----------



## Vanilla

I don’t have the channel local Jazz broadcasts are played on and only get to watch the national broadcasts, so this “Don time” stuff is new to me. It makes me chuckle.

I really think Packout was onto something with the Danny Ainge stuff. The vibe really has been terrible since he arrived. Maybe it was already there and just hidden, but I’m starting to believe there is something to that.


----------



## Critter

I think that it was already there. Ainge may of started to change things but which way that is going is up in the air. 

All you have to do to see how the Jazz work anything is to look at their past performances. It seams like last year when they hit the playoffs we were talking about the same thing, them tanking in the second half.


----------



## CPAjeff

Anyone like the first round matchup? I think the Mavs will eliminate the Jazz in five, maybe six.


----------



## Vanilla

If Luka is slowed there is absolutely no reason the Jazz should lose this series. He is carrying that team almost single handedly since the trade.

It’s hard to have confidence in this Jazz team, however. I really want to. I want to believe. I just don’t know if I really do believe in my heart of hearts.

Jazz in 6. 😂


----------



## Catherder

If Luka is dinged, it will be a close 7 game series that could go either way. 
If he is fine, Mavs in 5.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

CPAjeff said:


> Anyone like the first round matchup? I think the Mavs will eliminate the Jazz in five, maybe six.


Luka is currently injured and the Mavs are playing the mind games approach with releasing info on the status of the injury. If Luka is out for any extended amount of time during the series and they lose….well….I guess I’d expect it at this point tbh.


----------



## PBH

Luka, Luka, Luka....

It's the same movie we have in Utah. Don Time.

neither team plays "team" ball. The deciding factor in this series will be: which team will play team ball. We know the Jazz will play team ball for 2-3 quarters. Will they do it for a full 4 quarters? They win those games.

If Luka is out, then Dallas will be forced to play team ball, which is probably a negative for Dallas. If we allow Luka to play "Don Time" ball, then we're in trouble.


Personally? I'm looking forward to round 2. Why? It doesn't matter whether the Jazz win or lose round 1 -- round 2 won't be covered on FuboTV. Fubo sucks!!! And I can't wait to drop it. And, without Fubo I won't have any other service that carries TBS or TNT, and won't be obligated to continue to watch crappy iso basketball.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

PBH said:


> Luka, Luka, Luka....
> 
> It's the same movie we have in Utah. Don Time.
> 
> neither team plays "team" ball. The deciding factor in this series will be: which team will play team ball. We know the Jazz will play team ball for 2-3 quarters. Will they do it for a full 4 quarters? They win those games.
> 
> If Luka is out, then Dallas will be forced to play team ball, which is probably a negative for Dallas. If we allow Luka to play "Don Time" ball, then we're in trouble.
> 
> 
> Personally? I'm looking forward to round 2. Why? It doesn't matter whether the Jazz win or lose round 1 -- round 2 won't be covered on FuboTV. Fubo sucks!!! And I can't wait to drop it. And, without Fubo I won't have any other service that carries TBS or TNT, and won't be obligated to continue to watch crappy iso basketball.


Luka can definitely break the Jazz 4 times. Donovan can take over as well though. He’s struggled in the clutch this season, yet his playoff performances kinda speak for themself, I think he’ll pull it together in the playoffs. If Lukas playing, I feel like the Jazz will probably crumble like they’ve done best this season. Oh well, what can you do, I always enjoy playoff basketball and while the Jazz haven’t won a championship….something I really hope they do one day….they are a franchise that rarely misses the playoffs. I believe they’ve even got the longest playoff streak of any team in the league right now, so they have given fans plenty of wins over the years, just no championship…sigh.


----------



## RandomElk16

Jazz may just have to choke round 2 instead of round 1 if Luka is out.


----------



## Vanilla

Celtics have longest active playoff streak. And also 17 championships. They are also more racist in Boston than any other sporting town in the country. 

Maybe we need more racism here? (That's a joke...settle down! Just hackin' on 1-eye for his Utah hate)


----------



## PBH

rumor has it 1-eye killed a man.

What'd he kill him for?

hackin' on him.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> rumor has it 1-eye killed a man.
> 
> What'd he kill him for?
> 
> hackin' on him.



I thought it was for the one eyed deer thread?


----------



## PBH




----------



## 3arabians

Luka out for game one. Predictions? 

I think there will be an inspired effort by the mavs and it will be a really good game. Jazz by 2 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vanilla

Not sure on tomorrow morning’s game (serious NBA?), but I’m sticking to my Jazz in 6 prediction.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

3arabians said:


> Luka out for game one. Predictions?
> 
> I think there will be an inspired effort by the mavs and it will be a really good game. Jazz by 2
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mavs win game 1, Jazz win game 2. Luka returns game 3 or 4.


----------



## ridgetop

3arabians said:


> Luka out for game one. Predictions?
> 
> I think there will be an inspired effort by the mavs and it will be a really good game. Jazz by 2
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it's a 2 point game, the jazz probably won't be on the winning end. Jazz by 7.


----------



## 3arabians

Whew. I was pretty sure they were having another 4th collapse but they showed some heart finally. Pretty close on the prediction there ridge. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Little shaky down the stretch, but the referees were really trying to sway that game in Dallas favor down the stretch there.


----------



## Vanilla

Mike C is a very smart PG. He hit two big shots and then watches Mitchell have two utterly terrible offensive possessions. He then sets up the O by completely waiving Mitchell off and putting him in the corner to run it through Bojan. Bucket.

That is a veteran move there, and saved the game for them in the final 2 minutes.


----------



## Catherder

3arabians said:


> Whew. I was pretty sure they were having another 4th collapse but they showed some heart finally. Pretty close on the prediction there ridge.


I'm sure I wasn't the only Jazz fan going "here we go again" as the Mavs made their run. They got it done though and got the win they needed. I think it will be a good series. Doncic doesn't appear to be ready for a while.


----------



## PBH

Gobert was 0-1 field goal attempts on Saturday. That miss was on the first possession of the game. The Jazz never went to him again. Some of this was due to Dallas defense, but most was due to the Jazz offense, which was not very good in Game 1. Donovan was missing, which = more shooting in order for him to get his average. Not a good scenario.
He needs to quit forcing things, and let the offense work. Gobert should be getting more touches against this Mavericks team, which doesn't have a good solution for his size (other than just being physical).

Expect Brunson to continue to be a problem for us.

Looking forward to tonight.


----------



## Packout

Gobert and Bog won them that game. Gobert's defense was off the charts- 3 blocks and 10x that many altered shots and drives. Gobert's FT percentage was good to see too. And they went away from Bog in the second half. I wonder who is pulling the strings? Is it all Don doing what he wants or is Quinn steering the game plan to Don.....


----------



## Catherder

Ugh, opportunity lost. Maybe we should guard Kleber from 3? 

Back to calf strain watch.


----------



## 2full

The Spazz are a joke. 
They lost their heart of the team when Ingles went down. He was the glue. That is a quote from my wife. Even she sees that.


----------



## BGD

Catherder said:


> Ugh, opportunity lost. Maybe we should guard Kleber from 3?
> 
> Back to calf strain watch.


Jazz aren’t exactly known for their stellar perimeter defense. Jazz have pretty much lost my interest this year. It will take a pretty phenomenal shift of fortunes to pique my interest agains this year.


----------



## PBH

It's OK. That loss isn't what is important. What is important is that Donovan scored 34 points. Please note that Donovan is included in an elite scoring club in the playoffs. He's right there with the likes of Michael Jordan, as well as other elite scorers. At least, that's what Bolerjack told us the entire game last night...

Packout -- I don't think it's necessarily Snyder or Mitchell or even the Jazz. I think it's this league. This league makes money off superstars, not off good team basketball. It's a league of stars, in which personal stats are worth more than wins. Your team may not win a championship, but they'll sure sell a lot of jerseys.


----------



## RandomElk16

PBH said:


> It's OK. That loss isn't what is important. What is important is that Donovan scored 34 points. Please note that Donovan is included in an elite scoring club in the playoffs. He's right there with the likes of Michael Jordan, as well as other elite scorers. At least, that's what Bolerjack told us the entire game last night...
> 
> Packout -- I don't think it's necessarily Snyder or Mitchell or even the Jazz. I think it's this league. This league makes money off superstars, not off good team basketball. It's a league of stars, in which personal stats are worth more than wins. Your team may not win a championship, but they'll sure sell a lot of jerseys.


I don't think the league is telling the Jazz to choke every year.


----------



## PBH

RandomElk16 said:


> I don't think the league is telling the Jazz to choke every year.


If we are doing it every year, then it isn't choking. It's philosophy.

But does it matter? As long as Donovan Mitchell jerseys are selling, which they are, then does it really matter?

FWIW -- the NBA has the least parity of any major sport when it comes to winning championships. Do I think the league is telling the Jazz to choke? No. Do I think the league has influence over who does win? Absolutely.


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> But does it matter? As long as Donovan Mitchell jerseys are selling, which they are, then does it really matter?


This is a silly take. The Jazz get exponentially more revenue from winning playoff series and advancing than they ever could by selling any number of jerseys you can think up.

And the NBA would sell exponentially more DM jerseys if he was in New York than they ever could dream while he’s in Utah. On top of that, what do you think would happen with DM jersey sales if Jazz won a title? Steph wasn’t selling a lot of jerseys across the world before he won a title. 

So yes, the answer to your question is “Yes, it matters.” You really should stop watching the NBA entirely of this is how you feel. It should have no appeal to you at all.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> ...what do you think would happen with DM jersey sales if Jazz won a title?


Would the NBA have more to gain from a Utah Jazz championship vs. another (higher market) team? League revenue is higher with higher market teams winning playoff series (ie: the parity comment). So as long as Utah can continue to sell jerseys (ie: be popular, fill Vivint, be profitable) while at the same time losing in the 1st or 2nd round, then the league continues to benefit, as does Utah.



I'd rather complain about it, than quit watching altogether. It's kind of like anglers with the DWR. Republicans with the current presidency. Archery vs. rifle. You get it.


----------



## Vanilla

But that's not what you said...you said:



PBH said:


> As long as Donovan Mitchell jerseys are selling, which they are, then does it really matter?


I guess...yes, they sell jerseys of Donovan Mitchell. But he's not even in top 15 in the NBA. He is the highest selling NBA jersey in the state of Utah, but big deal. RJ Barrett sells more jerseys than Mitchell does. (Who???) Yes, it does matter. It matters to the Jazz greatly! 

And then you said this:



PBH said:


> Do I think the league is telling the Jazz to choke? No. Do I think the league has influence over who does win? Absolutely.


The jersey sales are peanuts compared to if the Jazz are more successful. So you can't make the allegation that all that matters are jersey sales when the opposite of success would bring in exponentially more revenue.

Jersey sales in Utah will never trump success. And probably the biggest reason for that is because success will bring jersey sales! It's just silly to even write that, even if just on an internet forum where silly is not only embraced, but personified regularly!

I haven't even seen a highlight from the game, but sounds like Dallas figured out how to neutralize Rudy's skillset again. This is not all Rudy's fault. In fact, most of it probably isn't his fault. But the results are the results. And the pattern should be troubling.


----------



## RandomElk16

PBH said:


> Would the NBA have more to gain from a Utah Jazz championship vs. another (higher market) team?


Milwaukee is a smaller market than Salt Lake. So are the Spurs. 

That didn't stop the league from "influencing who wins" (not an actual thing).


----------



## Vanilla

OKC played in a Finals "recently" as well too. I'm sure that was just the NBA trying to screw over the large market Miami Heat with no "superstars" on that team.


----------



## Catherder

At least they made a game of it tonight. Defensive shortcomings show up again as does lukewarm effort in the first half. 

It feels over to me but I suppose if they win Saturday, it could still be interesting.


----------



## Vanilla

It would have been awesome tonight to be able to sit in Utah and watch the Utah Jazz play a basketball game in the playoffs.

2022 and half the state can’t even watch their home team play a playoff game. What a wild world! Their tv deal is as effective as their rotation defense.


----------



## Critter

Their problem is that they now have to win another game in Dallas which isn't going to be easy. 

With this win in Utah Dallas can now rest Luka for a couple more games before they may really need him and I don't see Utah stopping him if he does come back say in game 5 or 6


----------



## Catherder

Critter said:


> With this win in Utah Dallas can now rest Luka for a couple more games before they may really need him and I don't see Utah stopping him if he does come back say in game 5 or 6


Probably, at least Saturday. Maybe that will help the Jazz, maybe not. Until they stop Dallas on defense, it may not matter. The eyeball test indicates that Dallas is just a better team this year, top to bottom.


----------



## caddis8

I dreamed last night of posting on here about this. I'm a weird person. This is what I dreamed I posted.

Stop. The. Ball. Corner. 3. Hero. Ball.


----------



## Vanilla

The Jazz appear to have become soft this year. And honestly, I think that is the absolute worst criticism a professional athlete or team can receive. Nothing worse than being soft. I’d way rather lack talent than be soft. This team is soft.

That’s a reflection on everyone from the front office all the way through the coaching staff and down to the end of the bench. These dudes are all soft. Not sure how you fix that?


----------



## caddis8

Vanilla said:


> The Jazz appear to have become soft this year. And honestly, I think that is the absolute worst criticism a professional athlete or team can receive. Nothing worse than being soft. I’d way rather lack talent than be soft. This team is soft.
> 
> That’s a reflection on everyone from the front office all the way through the coaching staff and down to the end of the bench. These dudes are all soft. Not sure how you fix that?


I agree with that assessment. Their "beautiful game" of passing, movement, 3 point shooting is very good when on. The blender is good when it's on. They seem to have moved away from it a bit. They were also predicated on defense and that went out the window as well. Their beautiful game has struggled mightily when blitzed on screens up high, and when a team ups the physicality against them. Hard nosed defense is still a very potent weapon. 

But good gravy, the Jazz can't defend a corner three to save their life. Dallas made them look lost in the first half. Then they went small and it worked. Then they didn't and it didn't work. But for the love of all that is holy. Stay in front of your guy, stop the ball, and things work out. 

I think credit needs to be given to Dallas. They are playing well. The Jazz have limped into the post season and it shows. Healthy limping is sad limping.


----------



## Vanilla

Think about how everyone is taking shots at Rudy, just as an example of the softness of this franchise. 

There was a day and age that your highest paid player getting taken to task all across the league and by a few specific players over and over again, that someone on the team would have come to defend that person both in the media and on the court. No teammate of mine would have ever had to endure that kind of ongoing criticism, and I'm not even tough!


----------



## RandomElk16

Vanilla said:


> The Jazz appear to have become soft this year. And honestly, I think that is the absolute worst criticism a professional athlete or team can receive. Nothing worse than being soft. I’d way rather lack talent than be soft. This team is soft.
> 
> That’s a reflection on everyone from the front office all the way through the coaching staff and down to the end of the bench. These dudes are all soft. Not sure how you fix that?


Yep. They don't want to play for eachother. They have no heart or swagger, which feels like stems from having no common ground.

LA had a lot of injuries but that stood out with them this year too. They felt like they didn't share a common "why" and it made them soft. 

Soft teams don't win.


----------



## Packout

The most painful thing I saw was when they focused the camera on Ainge in the first half. The Jazz got worse the day he walked thru the door. The Jazz were 20-7 when he came on board. The Jazz were 29-26 after he was hired. 
I watched for awhile and changed the channel. Then looked back and changed the channel again. And again. And again. 
How many times does a guy need to watch Connely fall down? Or Mitchell stand as people blow past him? How many passes to Rudy's shins? Do his team mates not know he is over 7' tall? How many plays with Don holding the ball for 5-8 seconds? That was so painful to watch the bit I did watch. I think they want to go on vacation.


----------



## PBH

Packout said:


> I watched for awhile and changed the channel.
> How many times does a guy need to watch ...
> 
> That was so painful to watch...


I'm happy to say that I did NOT watch game 3. I didn't even see a single highlight (or lowlight). My day has been much better.


'Nilla -- I appreciate you always having my back.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> I'm happy to say that I did NOT watch game 3. I didn't even see a single highlight (or lowlight). My day has been much better.


Smart move. I watched the entire game, er, uh, train wreck, didn't get any sleep last night and have been grumpy at work all day. Ugh.

I had to run an errand during lunch and heard some national commentary on the radio. Sounds like everybody is sticking a fork in the Jazz (some hot take ) and say they will be blown up this summer. I tend to agree on all accounts. 

How would you go about it? 

Personally, I think Snyder is outta here, either by himself or maybe by mutual agreement. Then what? Quinn isn't getting blown by on the perimeter defense. Stay with Gobert or Mitchell? Not an easy decision. 

One tidbit from the D-news today. 

Perimeter defense continues to be a problem for the Jazz. The Mavericks made absolutely no secret of the fact that they were hunting Mitchell on switches and hoping to get their ball-handlers in front of Mitchell, only to then blow straight past him, possession after possession. Sure there were a few instances when Mitchell played good defense, but those few were completely overshadowed by the fact that the Mavericks didn’t see him as a threat and got what they wanted out of that matchup more often than not. Dinwiddie and Brunson both had a pretty easy time getting to the rim and making plays throughout the course of the game on Mitchell, Conley, Royce O’Neale and Jordan Clarkson.


----------



## CPAjeff

Cancun on three … 1, 2, 3 Cancun!!!

Seems to be what the Jazz have been saying since the All-Star break. Maybe a little before then actually.


----------



## Vanilla

Catherder said:


> How would you go about it?


I've actually thought about this question quite a bit. Way more than I feel I should be thinking about it, so I guess I care about this more than I thought I did. Ahem...

1- Quin is gone. And he needs to be gone. He lost this locker room. I don't know why or how, but it's clear this roster is no longer playing for him, so you either turn over the entire roster or you get a new coach. Changing coaches is easier than turning over an entire roster with contracts in place, etc. 

2- Either Donovan Mitchell or Rudy Gobert needs to go. This roster is not going to win a title, period. You run this roster back with the only real change being a new coach, then expect exactly the same thing again. A new coach could have a big impact on them no longer being soft, but I think you need to move on from one of them. I am not on the inside so I have not seen how things are REALLY going, but those on the inside better know and should be able to make the decision on where the problem lies pretty easily. Is nobody coming to Rudy's defense because nobody likes him and they tend to agree he's soft? If so, Rudy has to go. If nobody is getting Rudy's back because they are afraid how Donovan will respond? Then Donovan needs to go. And the sissies that are afraid of him may need to go as well. I honestly don't know why the problems exist, and I really don't even care who caused it. But the front office needs to know what is going on there and remedy it. Another offseason to sit down and talk about it isn't what needs to be done. I'm guessing it's easier to move DM than RG. I think I've made clear over the last few years that I don't believe Rudy can be your highest paid player and win at the highest level. So I think you know where I stand as a fan...but I acknowledge I could be very wrong in who needs to go. One or the other needs to go. 

3- Packout is correct about the timing on Ainge. It's crazy to think how quickly things changed after he arrived. That is 100% on Ryan Smith. He has done a great job of working to portray the Jazz organization as politically correct and socially mindful. That's great, he paid $1.4 billion so he could do what he wanted with them. Maybe it's time for him to put more focus on what is happening on the court than off the court for a little while. That's likely what Ainge is here to do, but that was not a necessary hire as Justin Zanick I think is more than capable of making things happen. Ryan Smith, figure your crap out! 

4- The leaked uniforms for next years on the new colors and rebranding are hideous. We are not the Oregon Ducks and they are borderline offensive. 

Honestly, I have no idea what to do with this roster, but I'm also not paid millions of dollars to know that. Those that are paid millions to do that job better get to work! Jazz fans are loyal, we've proven that. But things are not okay in Jazz-ville.


----------



## Critter

It will be interesting if what was being talked about a couple of weeks ago of a Gobert trade to the Golden State Warriors may be a good thing to shake up the Jazz.


----------



## BGD

I have really liked Mitchell over the years but the dude has got to play defense. Defense is about focus, effort, and team. He will never be a superstar if he is only an offensive player. 

I also worry about his attitude and approach to the game. He doesn’t look like he is having fun anymore. He doesn’t seem to trust his teammates. I was in the arena for their 4th quarter collapse against the Suns the 2nd to last game of the regular season. Donny had a big part in being out scored 35-13 in the 4th of that game. His shot selection was horrible, he turned the ball over, held the ball too long, and just didn’t seem to get them into the offense. It was too much iso ball, asking his team to set screens and space but with no chance he was going to pass them the ball. Rather it was drive and take contested shots. 

I think it is time to move on from Gobert. The league has changed and as great as he is, we will always be vulnerable to the 3 ball with him there.

I think the Jazz keep Donny. But they need to find someone that can convince him to give effort on the defensive end. Then, find a way to get that due back to having fun playing ball. When he is having fun he is a whole different player.


----------



## Catherder

Not sure I am any more confident than before of a series win, but it was a markedly better effort and a fun game to watch. Wish we had more of that in the previous 2 contests. 
On to game 5.


----------



## 2full

Man, is this game hard to watch.......
Defense......we don’t need no stinking defense !!


----------



## Catherder

Man, the Jazz looked like they were playing in quicksand. Dallas had a lot more energy, among other things. 

Why was Don even in the game when his hammy tweaked? 🤷‍♂️ Not looking good now.


----------



## Vanilla

I haven’t had much time to watch any of the playoffs so far, but this weekend I was able to watch the Warriors-Nuggets game and then the Jazz-Mavs game last night.

The difference between the two contests was amazing. Even before last nights’ game got out of hand, there was such a difference in just enjoyment watching each game.

I’m starting to sound like PBH now, but I hate watching both the Jazz and Mavs play basketball.


----------



## PBH

for once in my whole life, I was in complete agreement with a Bolerjack comment. His comment completely shocked me -- he's such a homer that I never thought I'd hear him say it: "This is really hard to watch". And that comment was made in the first half!


that game last night was a great example of what happens when you don't play team oriented basketball. The pregame talk by the Utah commentators all said the same thing: The first couple minutes will dictate the game. The Jazz needed to come out and assert a win right off the bat. What happened? Forced play by Utah, and easy buckets by Dallas:

11:48 -- Conley misses 25 foot jumper
*11:33 -- Powell makes alley oop dunk.*
11:18 -- Mitchell misses 26 foot step back jumper
*10:59 -- Doncic makes 5 foot shot*
10:46 -- Bogdanovich misses 25 foot jumper

The Jazz commentators were right -- this game was over by the second minute.

Powell ended up with 8 points in the first 6 minutes of the game, matching the total output by the Jazz by himself. Each of those points came by an assist by a Dallas player. At that point in the game Dallas had 5 assists to Utah's 0. Utah got it's first assist of the game with 1 minute remaining in the first quarter (Clarkson to Gobert).

Plain and simple, Utah did not play team ball. But that's a movie we've all been watching for a while now. I'll be glad when this movie is no longer in theaters.


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Powell ended up with 8 points in the first 6 minutes of the game, matching the total output by the Jazz by himself. Each of those points came by an assist by a Dallas player. At that point in the game Dallas had 5 assists to Utah's 0. Utah got it's first assist of the game with 1 minute remaining in the first quarter (Clarkson to Gobert).
> 
> Plain and simple, Utah did not play team ball.


This is an over-simplification and not accurate statement, IMO. The Jazz were getting good looks at open shots in the first half that were based off passes from teammates, and just missing them. You can't get an assist if your open teammate misses the shot. There certainly were forced bad shots along the way, but overall, I think if you watched film with the coaching staff the overall feeling, on offense at least, is things worked, guys just didn't hit open shots. Out of their 30 missed 3s on the night, I'm guessing 20 or more of them were open looks and any objective analysis would say they were good shots. (An open 3 by a good 3 point shooting team is a good shot.)


----------



## PBH

I have to disagree 'Nilla. How many of those missed shots in the first quarter were quick, forced attempts? Just because Mitchell didn't have someone defending him at 26 feet with 19 seconds left on the shot clock does NOT mean it's a "good look". It's more like a Bolerjack cliche: heat check.

maybe I'm just old school in my thinking that you work for something inside early? That's certainly not how this Jazz team operates, and all the analytics point.

Mitchell started this game out, visibly, with urgency. In my opinion, he was forcing right from the opening tip. He was going too fast for himself. The entire team was dribbling the ball too much, and not passing enough. 





Of course, had those shots all been falling, this discussion goes a different direction and we praise Mitchell for being more aggressive. Such is the life of a Monday morning quarterback.


----------



## Vanilla

1st quarter shot chart, for your viewing pleasure. 10 shots in the paint in the 1st Q. 13 shots inside of 15 feet. Seems like they did what you’re asking.


----------



## RandomElk16

The Jazz need a true playmaker. Trading Mitchell for Westbrook should do the trick. 



 🤣 Jazz are cooked though.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> Seems like they did what you’re asking.


1st quarter assists = 1


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> 1st quarter assists = 1


You're missing the point. The passes were there, the made shots were not. Go back and watch it again. Looking at a box score doesn't tell the story on this one.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> You're missing the point. The passes were there...


No they weren't. 

Here, I'll give it to you in video format: Mitchell
OK. On second thought, maybe we don't want Mitchell passing more. Mitchell passing


----------



## Vanilla

Thanks for the video. 3 Mitchell misses in the 1Q would have been assists if they had been makes. All were good shots off a pass from a teammate.

Give me all the rest of the team's misses too. There were 12 of them total in the quarter. I'm guessing more than just the 3 cited would have been assists if they end up being makes. I like when your videos prove me right! 🤣


Edit: Not the 1Q, but find the video of the play Mitchell gets hurt on. A drive to the basket and kick out to Bogey in the corner for a....you guessed it, missed open shot from the corner 3. Who on this website would not want Bogey taking an open 3 from the corner? Reveal yourselves so we know that you know nothing about basketball!


----------



## PBH

lol. This is fun. I like Vanilla.

I'm not sure which three 1st quarter misses you are referring to that would have been considered assits. Just so we're clear, the NBA's rule states "the player receiving the pass *must move immediately toward the basket* in a scoring motion." I think the only miss Mitchell had that would have qualified was the pass from Clarkson. I don't think O'Neal's would have counted as an assist -- maybe it would have? I don't know what the other was.

Bogy play

Bojan was open and took a good, although contested, three -- no real complaint here. Mitchell passed, as is designed on a dribble penetrate where the defense collapses. 

If we're being critical, and where the Jazz have shined in the past on this play would have been two additional passes ("The Blender") to an open Clarkson. This is where Dallas defense has been good, running the Jazz off the three point shot (ie: Brunson closing out on Bojan and Dinwiddie closing on Conley -- leaving Clarkson open).


(Vanilla: send me an invoice for counseling)


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Bogy play
> 
> Bojan was open and took a good, although contested, three -- no real complaint here. Mitchell passed, as is designed on a dribble penetrate where the defense collapses.


Two more open missed shots by Bogey that would have been assists. What is our runny tally now? How about the rest of the misses? 

I like you too, heppy. You're one of my favorites. And I don't have lots of favorites.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> What is our runny tally now?


UT 77 - 102 DAL


Oh, wait. You must have meant: Dallas leads 3-2


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> UT 77 - 102 DAL
> 
> 
> Oh, wait. You must have meant: Dallas leads 3-2


I will be watching the NFL draft on Thursday, not the Jazz-Mavs. Cheer loud for me!


----------



## Catherder

🍿🍿I hope you guys aren't done. That back and forth was kind of entertaining. 

It's interesting that different people watch the same game/train wreck/disaster/crime and come away with different impressions. I didn't feel like watching Blunderjack last night, so I watched the TNT guys. To me, it seemed like the effort was there, unlike games 2 and 3, but they were 2 steps slow and the Mavs just had more energy, especially on D. The color guy on TNT commented that the Jazz just looked tired or exhausted. Additionally, Donovan was epically bad. He had a -38 plus/minus, which is the worst total in franchise history, since the league started keeping that stat. I've commented on this before, but I feel he is really pressing. He hasn't had an especially good game in the entire series. I'm not sure if there is a remedy TBH. Additionally, the injury can't help, no matter what. If he plays on a gimpy leg, his D will be even more compromised, just like last year against the Clips. If he doesn't play, I don't see his sub altering the outcome positively. We do depend on him on the offensive end, even if we all agree that it isn't pretty sometimes. 

Anyway, I think the Chuckster and Shaq will have the Jazz fishing on Thursday night.


----------



## PBH

Catherder said:


> Donovan was epically bad. He had a -38 plus/minus... I feel he is really pressing.
> ...I'm not sure if there is a remedy TBH.


the remedy is: stop pressing. Let the game come to you. Slow down.

The problem with pushing too hard, aside from rushing shots and making bad passes, is that injuries seem to follow. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## caddis8

PBH said:


> the remedy is: stop pressing. Let the game come to you. Slow down.
> 
> The problem with pushing too hard, aside from rushing shots and making bad passes, is that injuries seem to follow. 🤷‍♂️


I agree Heppy. He is pressing. More than pressing, he's forcing. Forcing makes one tight. Feels like he HAS to be the difference maker, and to an extent, he does. But it feels like when he does that, he doesn't move the ball and include the rest of the team. When a team has 5 people to guard 1 person, it makes the other team's job easier.


----------



## PBH

Catherder said:


> If he [Mitchell] doesn't play, I don't see his sub altering the outcome positively. We do depend on him on the offensive end.


The Jazz were 8-7 without Mitchell this year. Since February, the Jazz are 4-0 without Mitchell.
We have the team to win even without Mitchell. Bogdanovic, Conley, Gobert, Clarkson. They each have potential to score a lot of points and make a big impact in the outcome of a game (on both ends of the court).

One person we haven't talked about that could help, but is injured, is Trent Forrest. Too bad he's out.

Another person that has potential to help but has yet to be used: Butler. Facilitator. Defender. Scoring.
Flying under the radar guys that could open some eyes? Alexander-Walker, Paschall.

You guys remember that game vs Toronto in January when the Jazz had a starting lineup of Paschall, Hughes, Whiteside, Forrest, and Butler? Sure, we lost -- but that was a fun movie to watch!


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> I will be watching the NFL draft on Thursday, not the Jazz-Mavs. Cheer loud for me!



Caddis and Catherder will have to pick up the slack here. We have a softball game Thursday -- so I won't have to watch this one.


----------



## caddis8

PBH said:


> Caddis will have to pick up the slack here. We have a softball game Thursday -- so I won't have to watch this one.


I have a soccer game so I'll be a little late to the party. I like to watch good basketball, and unfortunately it's been the Mavs playing good basketball.


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Caddis and Catherder will have to pick up the slack here. We have a softball game Thursday -- so I won't have to watch this one.


We are the lucky ones!




caddis8 said:


> I like to watch good basketball, and unfortunately it's been the Mavs playing good basketball.


This is my gripe: I don't think the Mavs play good basketball either. They are doing what they need to do to win, so tip the hat to them. But setting picks until you get the matchup you want and then going complete iso to the hoop every single time down the court is not entertaining basketball to watch. 

This series is a HUGE contrast to the Warriors-Nuggets where the basketball is actually entertaining.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> Caddis and Catherder will have to pick up the slack here. We have a softball game Thursday -- so I won't have to watch this one.


I will watch, unless it is the early tip that day. I sometimes end up working late. It might be the last playoff game hosted at the Viv in a while. I suspect that the anticipated offseason roster demolition will send us to the lottery for a time, as up and coming teams like the T-wolves and Pelicans take our place in the pecking order.

As for one of the subs becoming a revelation in Mitchell's absence, sure, it could happen and the defense almost certainly will improve in that position, but there is a reason those dudes are on the bench and have had their share of DNP-CD's. I doubt Dallas will come with a midseason lackadaisical effort tomorrow.


----------



## PBH

Good news!!

For anyone following this thread, you'll be glad to know that the DHS, via the "Disinformation Governance Board", will begin monitoring these discussions to combat 'disinformation'.


No more making stuff up Vanilla!!


(I won't be able to watch tonight's game, but I can't wait to see an injured Mitchell pressing and forcing his way through this game...)

Jazz in 7.


----------



## Vanilla

If people are no longer allowed to make stuff up then this forum is doomed! 

Interesting stat a friend shared with me this last night: The Jazz are shooting 9.2 percentage points lower than expected (based upon location, shooter, and contest level) on catch and shoot shots. 

A made catch and shoot shot results in an assist, no? 

As a contrast, Dallas is shooting 7 percentage points better than expected on same shots.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> Interesting stat a friend shared with me this last night: The Jazz are shooting 9.2 percentage points lower than expected (based upon location, shooter, and contest level) on catch and shoot shots.


Are they rushing their shots? Trying to get that shot off before the Dallas defense can run them off the 3-point line? Maybe an extra pass is warranted. Maybe start closer and get your range dialed in before launching that 26 foot bomb.

Thurl and Mike and Alema each said (in prior games) that the Jazz would need to jump on the Mavs in the first few minutes of the game -- set the tone early -- dictate the pace -- etc. Basically, determine the outcome right off the bat, errr...rather, the tip. That last game, the Jazz did exactly that: win the tip, immediately launch a 26 foot jumper -- clang. Game over.

I hope we start with a Gobert alley-opp dunk tonight.

#RGGSENM


----------



## Catherder

It's the late tip tonight so you all can watch! (at minimum, some garbage time)



PBH said:


> I hope we start with a Gobert alley-opp dunk tonight.


My guess is Don with the ball, a screener will come up and Don will test his leg by driving to the basket. The D will collapse and he will either dish out to a shooter (preferred), shoot a highly contested shot, or more likely turn the ball over.



Vanilla said:


> If people are no longer allowed to make stuff up then this forum is doomed!


This forum would disappear faster than the Jazz playoff hopes if that were the case.


----------



## Critter

Any chance that the bee that stung Gobert was a atomic bee and he'll be super human?

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk


----------



## Catherder

For the softball crowd, first play was Mitchell to Conley, back to Don, 3 pointer, off. 

Defensive effort much better so far and ahead 21-15 after 1. Mavs did miss some open looks though. We shall see how it goes. Good luck to the softballers.


----------



## PBH

hmmmm.

Game 6 started just like Game 5. We've seen this movie before....




Vanilla said:


> Who on this website would not want Bogey taking an open 3 from the corner? Reveal yourselves so we know that you know nothing about basketball!



🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️



Time to go fishing. 🐡🐠🐟


----------



## Catherder

I actually thought last nights game was the most entertaining to watch in the entire series. Both teams competed hard and it could have gone either way. Dallas is just better than the Jazz at this time and earned it. That's the way it goes sometimes. 



PBH said:


> Time to go fishing. 🐡🐠🐟


Couldn't agree more, on multiple levels.  

Curious to see what Ainge and Zanak(x) reel in.


----------



## Catherder

Good article..
.








Donovan Mitchell, Rudy Gobert and the fragile future of the Utah Jazz


The threat of Utah's franchise player demanding a trade looms over a team that has yet to break through with a deep playoff run.




www.espn.com


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> hmmmm.
> 
> Game 6 started just like Game 5. We've seen this movie before....


Except it didn’t. The first two buckets were awarded assists. Isn’t that what you were belly aching about after game 5?


----------



## 3arabians

Catherder said:


> Good article..
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donovan Mitchell, Rudy Gobert and the fragile future of the Utah Jazz
> 
> 
> The threat of Utah's franchise player demanding a trade looms over a team that has yet to break through with a deep playoff run.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.espn.com



It was a good read and also the LONGEST article I’ve ever read about the Jazz. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Unfortunate. Rudy wants to be here, Donovan doesn’t. Yet the franchise is going to try to appease Donovan. Donovan having the audacity to possibly demand a trade after playing as poorly and with the lack of effort he did defensively this entire series takes some real lack of self awareness.

Essentially here’s what will happen. Jazz will trade Rudy to try to appease or go all in on Donovan. (They want Donovan on the roster as a “host” or Jazz player for the All Star game). Donovan will demand a trade next summer. Tim MacMahon (the guy who wrote this piece) essentially also said today on a podcast it’s not smart to go all in on appeasing Donovan and he will only be in Utah at the most one more season(if he doesn’t ask for a trade this offseason). Donovan clearly hasn’t liked Utah since a lot of the political/racial backlash he received and it’s unfortunate, but his time in Utah is certainly drawing to a close. This has been some pretty constant noise all year that Donovan has no interest in being in Utah much longer. The worse part of this is they’ll trade Rudy and lose both, and Rudy reportedly does want to be here for the entirety of his career. But as he said last night, it’s out of his hands at this point.


----------



## 3arabians

Give us Randall and Fournier for Donovan and let’s send him home. 

Keep Rudy cuz we will have a national park named after him soon. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

3arabians said:


> Give us Randall and Fournier for Donovan and let’s send him home.
> 
> Keep Rudy cuz we will have a national park named after him soon.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I want more than Randle and Fournier. They are nothing special. The Knicks want him so bad you could get a total ransom for him right now. Throw Barrett,Quickly and some picks in as well. But really, unless he demands a trade the Jazz are going to end up trading Rudy, Mitchell will ask for a trade next offseason, but he’ll be around for the All Star game. I think the Jazz will go through every hoop to try and appease Mitchell, but judging by a multitude of reports and him saying “ask me next week” in regards to whether rumors he’ll demand out are true last night, he has no interest in being here anymore, and it’s not going to work no matter what they do.


----------



## Catherder

3arabians said:


> Give us Randall and Fournier for Donovan and let’s send him home.
> 
> Keep Rudy cuz we will have a national park named after him soon.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It is fun speculation but I think we can be patient. A lot can happen. For instance, the Knicks are in the lottery this year. What if they get the #1 or #2? Don't you think Ainge would be calling in a "New York minute" to see about getting that in a package for Mitchell? What if the Nets are tired of Kyrie? Would we do that? It certainly would at least improve our standing with the anti vax, Lets go Brandon folks that have been griping the Jazz have been too "woke" lately. 

I guess my point is that a lot can happen, including scenarios where the stars stay one more year and they aren't all bad for the Jazz. Plus no on Fournier. We definitely don't need another minus on defense on the perimeter.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Catherder said:


> It is fun speculation but I think we can be patient. A lot can happen. For instance, the Knicks are in the lottery this year. What if they get the #1 or #2? Don't you think Ainge would be calling in a "New York minute" to see about getting that in a package for Mitchell? What if the Nets are tired of Kyrie? Would we do that? It certainly would at least improve our standing with the anti vax, Lets go Brandon folks that have been griping the Jazz have been too "woke" lately.
> 
> I guess my point is that a lot can happen, including scenarios where the stars stay one more year and they aren't all bad for the Jazz. Plus no on Fournier. We definitely don't need another minus on defense on the perimeter.


I think some of it is past speculation at this point. Both local and national media agree, this Jazz team is done and one or both of the stars are going. Rudy to appease Donovan, Donovan because he doesn’t want to be here. If we get to free agency/trade season Mitchell may very well just say he wants to be traded, then maybe the Jazz decide Rudy is who to keep. It’ll be interesting to see how much “bad guy” Mitchell is willing to play. He loves his public image being untarnished and it’s going to take some tarnishing to get out with 3 years left on his contract. I think there’s a fair chance Quin is gone as well.

PS can the “let’s go Brandon” morons all leave the fanbase? You’d be doing the franchise a big favor. Mitchell souring so quickly on the market is not going to help going forward at all for the team. It’s actually a pretty bad look for a market with an already bad reputation.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> Except it didn’t. The first two buckets were awarded assists. Isn’t that what you were belly aching about after game 5?


No. I was bellyaching about pressing, rushing, and forcing. The lack of assists were a result of forcing shots and not playing within the offense.

But none of it matters now. What matters now is that I was finally able to cancel my FuboTV service ($70/month).


----------



## Vanilla

I saw a report today that within the next few days Rudy will officially make a demand for the Jazz to trade either him or Donovan. He’s to the point of “him or me,” and will make that known soon.

Get your popcorn ready!


----------



## PBH

Gobert has already responded to that rumor. Gobert is denying any demand to the Jazz.


----------



## Vanilla

An athlete denied a rumor about what they are saying behind closed doors? Well I’ll be…

Way too much smoke around this DM and RG soap opera for there not to be any flames.

Like I said, get your popcorn ready.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

PBH said:


> Gobert has already responded to that rumor. Gobert is denying any demand to the Jazz.


Eh, it’s pretty much a choice between the two of them at this point whether that rumor is true or not, one of them is going to be traded, if not both.


----------



## RandomElk16

It's funny that you can point to this entire breakup basically being when Rudy smacked all the microphones and didn't take covid serious... Then gave Mitchell Covid and got the league shutdown.

Granted - it could have been anybody. It was going to happen. But it wasn't, it was Rudy and it was compounded by that presser and touching the mics. 


It's been a slow trainwreck ever since imo.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

RandomElk16 said:


> It's funny that you can point to this entire breakup basically being when Rudy smacked all the microphones and didn't take covid serious... Then gave Mitchell Covid and got the league shutdown.
> 
> Granted - it could have been anybody. It was going to happen. But it wasn't, it was Rudy and it was compounded by that presser and touching the mics.
> 
> 
> It's been a slow trainwreck ever since imo.


I think that was the breaking point, there were a few rumors floating around in the months prior to that, that their relationship was starting to get fairly strained. Then I think that happened, and it was just a good excuse to make a big deal over something, and since then, it’s just never been anything but a tolerable relationship, not really a good working relationship. To be clear, if I’m Rudy I’m totally there at this point. He’s been scapegoated and thrown under the bus a few too many times.


----------



## Vanilla

RandomElk16 said:


> It's funny that you can point to this entire breakup basically being when Rudy smacked all the microphones and didn't take covid serious... Then gave Mitchell Covid and got the league shutdown.
> 
> Granted - it could have been anybody. It was going to happen. But it wasn't, it was Rudy and it was compounded by that presser and touching the mics.
> 
> 
> It's been a slow trainwreck ever since imo.


The tinder had already been laid out and arranged nicely, that just seemed to be the spark that ignited what was already there. You're right that this is where it all seems to have become public, but I'm guessing this was never a good relationship.


----------



## RandomElk16

#1DEER 1-I said:


> To be clear, if I’m Rudy I’m totally there at this point. He’s been scapegoated and thrown under the bus a few too many times.


If they trade DM, do you think Rudy can translate that $40M a year into some offensive baskets?


----------



## Catherder

RandomElk16 said:


> If they trade DM, do you think Rudy can translate that $40M a year into some offensive baskets?


He would certainly get more attempts.  

It's too bad that Rudy can't improve his offensive game and DM his defensive work. 
I guess that is sizable part of the reason that they are in Cancun right now and the speculation meter is white hot.


----------



## Vanilla

Rudy has no offensive game outside of receiving lobs. If he doesn’t have it now, he won’t ever have it.

Interesting to see Brunson not get to the hoop at will. I thought it was impossible to hold him under 25 points?!?


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

RandomElk16 said:


> If they trade DM, do you think Rudy can translate that $40M a year into some offensive baskets?


Rudy kind of just is what he is at this point, the truth is they should probably just trade both of them. Rudy isn’t going to progress to a point he is what will lead a team to a title, and Donovan doesn’t want to be here anymore, so there isn’t enough time or assets to make it happen with him either. It’s a pretty pathetic way for this iteration of the Jazz to end, but it just kind of is what it is now.


----------



## RandomElk16

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Rudy kind of just is what he is at this point, the truth is they should probably just trade both of them. Rudy isn’t going to progress to a point he is what will lead a team to a title, and Donovan doesn’t want to be here anymore, so there isn’t enough time or assets to make it happen with him either. It’s a pretty pathetic way for this iteration of the Jazz to end, but it just kind of is what it is now.


Yeah my question was more rhetorical. 

Everyone is hot to go after DM, and he has flaws... but I still don't think you can pay a center who isn't a "stretch big" (which seems to be a thing with 5's not just 4's) on O $40M and expect to do much. It seems to make sense to trade Rudy if the market is good and go ground up with the assets. 

If there is one thing the Jazz do decent, it's draft.


----------



## Vanilla

It’s interesting watching this Memphis-GS game tonight. I don’t believe I ever saw the Jazz play as hard in any game this year, playoffs included, as both of these teams are playing tonight.

There are definite moments of hero ball, so PBH shouldn’t watch, but both these teams are playing HARD on both ends of the floor. You can tell they both really want it. It’s really entertaining basketball. 

There are a million things we can dissect about what’s wrong with the Jazz this year, but I really think it comes down to the basic premise that they collectively didn’t want it.


----------



## PBH

Vanilla said:


> There are definite moments of hero ball, so PBH shouldn’t watch...


I haven't suffered through a single NBA game since the Jazz went down. I cancelled my FuboTV service (AT&T Sportsnet) and don't have another service that carries TNT / TBS. If we are limited to Fubo next season, I may not bother then either.

Life is beautiful.



Vanilla said:


> There are a million things we can dissect about what’s wrong with the Jazz this year, but I really think it comes down to the basic premise that they collectively didn’t want it.


The Jazz lost their heart, soul, identity, fight, charisma, passion, determination, and grit when Joe Ingles went down. We all knew that Joe wouldn't be around for a lot longer, but it hurt to lose him to injury. Trading him made sense -- but I wish we still had him. His presence will be missed.

Long live Joe Ingles.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> Long live Joe Ingles.


Maybe we had it wrong about who should get a National Park named after him.


----------



## PBH

Catherder said:


> Maybe we had it wrong about who should get a National Park named after him.


Park / Monument status and boundaries are fluid.

Gobert get's a Monument.

Ingles deserves something more permanent on a State level. Maybe we re-name a county for him? We have enough "Salt Lake" stuff, I propose we rename Salt Lake County to Joe Ingles County, and appoint him the Mayor of Salt Lake City.
Further, he should have a statue right next to Stockton and Malone.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> Park / Monument status and boundaries are fluid.
> 
> Gobert get's a Monument.
> 
> Ingles deserves something more permanent on a State level. Maybe we re-name a county for him? We have enough "Salt Lake" stuff, I propose we rename Salt Lake County to Joe Ingles County, and appoint him the Mayor of Salt Lake City.
> Further, he should have a statue right next to Stockton and Malone.



While Joe might be a better mayor than the current one, Salt Lake County houses the State Capitol and, well, the Great Salt Lake. I think that one is unchangable. I think there are better candidates. Millard county is named after one of the most ineffectual US presidents in history and much of the county looks like the outback anyway. Garfield was shot before he did anything as president. That would be another good one to change. And how much Iron really comes from your neck of the woods? Maybe Joe would be a better Cedar City mayor than the clowns you are often complaining about?


----------



## PBH

Critical thinking -- that's what I like about Catherder.

the Great Joe Lake.
or
Ingles Lake (vs. Utah Lake). I like it.


From now on, I will refer to Joe Bush (Fish Lake, Utah) as: Joe's Bush.
I will also work on getting a picture of Joe Ingles placed on the sign at Joe's Bush.




FWIW: the iron mines are running again, and the owner is also thinking (planning) on a steel mill.

The irony with Iron County is that the maple trees (and other plants) suffer from chlorosis, due to the lack of chelated iron. All this iron, and it's unavailable to plants.


#TheGreatJoeLake


----------



## PBH

Adrian Wojnarowski and Tim MacMahon said:


> After weeks of conversations with ownership and management, Utah Jazz coach Quin Snyder's future remains unclear and a possibility exists that he could decide to end his eight-year tenure with the franchise...
> 
> ...discussions with owner Ryan Smith and CEO of basketball operations Danny Ainge have yet to secure the coach's return for next season ...
> 
> ...Conversations have largely been centered on philosophical issues and how the sides can work together moving forward...
> 
> ...sitting out a season would certainly leave him as one of the most sought-after candidates in 2023...


So, Smith buys the team, brings in Danny Ainge, and all-of-a-sudden the Jazz have a philosophically different point-of-view than Snyder?

This doesn't sound good to me. But, what do I know? I'm just a casual Jazz fan that longs for the days when our team could run a fast-break.


----------



## Vanilla

If you’re worried about the on court performance (IE- running a fast break) then maybe you should be happy these non-newsbreaking stories are coming out of ESPN.


----------



## Catherder

And Quin is off to coach San Antonio after Pop retires next year. Who is next?


----------



## Vanilla

Catherder said:


> And Quin is off to coach San Antonio after Pop retires next year. Who is next?


I can’t imagine that the list of coaches that can’t win a playoff series is short. It’s probably limitless! I’d gladly do it.

Quin is a good coach, not a great one. Let’s see Danny earn his keep!

Mitchell is reportedly “unnerved” by it. Meh. The Jazz need people that want to be here more than they need people that can’t win playoff series.


----------



## Catherder

The interweb is lighting up like a Christmas tree today with trade scenarios for both Mitchell and Gobert. Some actually sound kind of intriguing. 

I guess Danny boy's "retirement" job is going to get a whole lot busier.


----------



## Vanilla

I think this is exactly why Ainge was brought in. Someone removed from the process and could clean house without any ties to any players or emotions involved. 

Here is my thought process on this one, and I admit it is entirely speculative and may not be correct, but it's how I'm proceeding in my own mind. 

Ryan Smith bought the team and after last season realized that this team as currently constituted would not go any farther in the playoffs than they had done. He brings in Danny Ainge to clean house because Zanik has attachments to the players he was involved with acquiring and from the front office, developing. Emotions cloud decision making, Smith needed someone detached. 

I don't think Ryan Smith is the only one who sees the limits of this team. Jazz brass tried to keep Quin. They were open about that, they made a multi-year contract extension available to him. Quin simply decided he didn't want to coach THIS team anymore. There has to be a reason for that. Again, enter Ainge...to clean house. 

What are the trades people are most interested in seeing happen?


----------



## RandomElk16

I don't think Quin held this team back. It's always funny to see the responses by any franchise fanbase when a player or coach leave and how they do that quick "we didn't like you anyways" response. 

The Jazz have issues that are much further rooted than the coach. 


That all said - it will be interesting to see how many of those roots they pick and the direction they go. There is a lot of opportunity as far as the roster goes.


----------



## Vanilla

RandomElk16 said:


> I don't think Quin held this team back.


I think your guess is probably correct, and I agree with it, but we will never know. 

Do you know what we do know for sure, however? He certainly didn't push them over the hump into title contention either. So if making the playoffs and getting bounced early is where some Jazz fans set the bar for satisfaction, then no changes are necessary. I don't mind them swinging for the fences, even if it means they fall on their face, because being in the lottery the next couple years is likely better for the future than getting bounced in the 1st round the next couple years again.


----------



## RandomElk16

Vanilla said:


> I think your guess is probably correct, and I agree with it, but we will never know.
> 
> Do you know what we do know for sure, however? He certainly didn't push them over the hump into title contention either. So if making the playoffs and getting bounced early is where some Jazz fans set the bar for satisfaction, then no changes are necessary. I don't mind them swinging for the fences, even if it means they fall on their face, because being in the lottery the next couple years is likely better for the future than getting bounced in the 1st round the next couple years again.


In the end I think it comes down to butts in seats. The Jazz's absolute peak as a franchise (90's) still resulted in them falling short of a championship. While championship aspirations should be a thing, Jazz fans have to "like" their team. I think the focus should be "How do we build a team that can contend, but that are fans are also proud to watch?"

As a non-Jazz fan, I feel they have actually navigated that second point pretty well. Jazz fans want to win, but they for the most part don't seem to hate this team. So I don't know what is next. Is "hope" the goal so you rebuild and create potentially false hope/excitement for a few years than do it again?


----------



## 2full

I think Quin is a very good coach. Will be interesting to see who they replace him with. Don't think he wanted to be part of a blow up the team and put it back together. Would have to start at square one all over again. That is always a tough project.


----------



## Vanilla

While winning the championship would be awesome, and I really hope the Jazz figure out a way to make it happen, I don't think it's required to win it to be considered a legitimate contender. Those 90s teams you referenced were contenders. We haven't had one since then. Unless your name is Bill Russell or you were a teammate of Bill Russell's, you lose a lot more than you win when it comes to titles as the measurement. People talk about Jordan as if he never lost a title. Well, he played in the league A LOT more years than the 6 he won titles. So titles can't be the only measuring stick, although getting one would sure be nice!

If this team could make a WCF run, that would satiate almost all Jazz fans. We could call ourselves "contenders" and be happy about it. Another Finals appearance would be awesome, even if they didn't win it all. Utah as exactly one WCF appearance since they were real contenders in the 90s, and I think we can all agree they lucked into that one and got in through the back door. Nobody considered then and certainly won't look back on it now that D-Will and Boozer were leading a title contending team. Make a contender, not a pretender. Get us to the WCF 2-3 times a decade, maybe a Finals appearance, and almost all Jazz fans will be satisfied. You would have a very successful franchise if you did that.

Getting bounced in the 1st round or upset by the Clippers without their best player won't cut it, however. It's better to be in the lottery than in the upper middle.


----------



## PBH

Maybe Dwayne Wade will coach. 🤷‍♂️ 


I liked Quinn. I'd have liked to see him stay. But I would have to guess that an ownership change to Ryan Smith changed all the long-term philosophies of the [currently] Utah Jazz. Color schemes change. Management change. Coaching change. Potential big-name trades.

I wonder if Las Vegas is looking for an NBA team?

Blow it up.💣


----------



## CPAjeff

Maybe the Jazz could lure the Zen Master Phil Jackson back into coaching . . .


----------



## Vanilla

They could hire him to run the front office. Seemed to work for the Knicks...


----------



## caddis8

Vanilla said:


> What are the trades people are most interested in seeing happen?


I think the head coach needs to be picked first before you worry about trades. There's speculation that Terry Stotts would be strongly considered. I'm not sure that's a good hire, similar to Snyder. He hasn't shown much for playoff winning. That being said, there's a lot of coaches that aren't known for playoff winning. 

Stotts had Damian Lillard, maybe there's a play for him in the works, but I doubt that. Lillard is pretty happy in Portland. 

Jazz have 3 main weaknesses. Not easily solved, but solveable with a type of player, not necessarily a certain player. The roster, as constructed, was not very versitile. People had roles that were picked specifically for the design. Trouble is, people figued them out pretty easily and the roster couldn't handle the adjustments. I'm not so sure that Quinn wasn't willing to try to react to the adjustments, but he was alsom limited in his ability to adjust because of the roster construction. 

Weakness #1- Defense unable to stop the drive on defense. Royce was undersized to guard a 3/4 combo wing guard, Donovan I wonder if he was unwilling or unable, Connoly was too small and slow. Ingles was slow, but he could at least annoy a wingman a bit. Bogey was admirable and actually did a decent job on Luca, but Brunson torched the Jazz at will. A strong wing/combo guard would be a huge help and addition. Bullock from the Mavs would be a good fit. 

Weakness #2- Very close to weakness #1. A larger point guard/enforcer. The Jazz absolutely couldn't handle a physical defense that switched, trapped, and bodied up to muck up a game. The team was built for beautiful blender ball, which is beautiful when executed. But when taken away, was dreadful. Jazzmen were wimpy against tougher guards like Brunson (he isn't particularly tall, but he was tough), Dillon Brooks (dude is a chump, but a player like him is much needed). Jazz don't have an enforcer. Ingles was the enforcer. Jazz need an enforcer badly. Draymond Green is a great enforcer. 

Weakness #3- A capable small #5. Rudy Gay wasn't it. Paschall _might_ be it, but not sure. A solid center is still very important in the league, but the ability and versatility is important and the Jazz didn't have that. But refer to #1 and #2 for the biggest issues. Rudy's liability was exposed because of the porous perimiter defense which put him out of position trying to guard multiple positions, which he did admirably. Clippers exposed the Jazz, Mavs exploied the exposure. The corner 3 was available because of terrible perimeter defense. 

What I don't know is if the team had it in them, but the chemistry was so off that the team wasn't playing for each other, or they simply couldn't do it. Luca is a generational talent, and a tough assignment. But Dallas beat the Jazz without him because of guard play. It felt like the Jazz weren't willing to into the trenches and play hard nosed ball.


----------



## Vanilla

caddis8 said:


> Luca is a generational talent, and a tough assignment. **But Dallas beat the Jazz without him* because of guard play. It felt like the Jazz weren't willing to into the trenches and play hard nosed ball.


*multiple times

Jazz lost twice with that generational talent in street clothes. 

I think your assessment of the weaknesses are spot on. Can you fix any of that with Rudy and Donovan's contracts still on this team? I suspect the answer to that is "no."


----------



## RandomElk16

You pay $40M a year for a defense only player and the top weakness listed involved defense. 

So I agree with Vanilla - gonna be hard to fix that issue with said contracts.


----------



## caddis8

Vanilla said:


> I think your assessment of the weaknesses are spot on. Can you fix any of that with Rudy and Donovan's contracts still on this team? I suspect the answer to that is "no."


I'm not sure "no" is the answer. But with the contract situation the way it is, I would say no is the likely answer. They can't afford another player of the Weakness #1 and #2 that can reliably help. They may uncover a gem in a rookie contract, but I don't think it will be found in the discard pile. 

Clarkson can score, but he can't guard a fencepost. That isn't his role though. Curry isn't a strong defender, but he isn't asked to be. He has strong defenders around him to free him up to do what he does best. 

Mitchell is a very good player. But he didn't trust the team, or he felt like he had to take the whole team on his shoulders and that's nearly impossible. 4 people can guard 1 person even with mediocre teams. Donovan would take it to the rack, get in trouble, and force a shot or turn it over way too often. Those are highly contested shots, and lower percentage. His assist to turnover ratio wasn't that great and he didn't distrubute the ball well.

Snyder had his issues, and his end of game management was horrendous. But his end of game closing talent may not have supported what he would have liked to do.


----------



## caddis8

RandomElk16 said:


> You pay $40M a year for a defense only player and the top weakness listed involved defense.


 To be clear, the defensive issues weren't because of the defensive specialist. He saved a lot of butts with his defensive ability. I would like him to improve his offensive game. His hands weren't good and he was soft in finishing except for dunks.


----------



## Vanilla

caddis8 said:


> I'm not sure "no" is the answer. But with the contract situation the way it is, I would say no is the likely answer. They can't afford another player of the Weakness #1 and #2 that can reliably help. They may uncover a gem in a rookie contract, but I don't think it will be found in the discard pile.


But with Rudy and Donovan on the team, your only option is the discard pile, though. Jazz are in the tax. They will be able to use their mid-level exception (what they signed Rudy Gay with last year) and vet minimum contracts. Sure, there could be a diamond in the rough out there somewhere that becomes a huge contributor, but that is not likely. Hence, why I said "I suspect the answer to that is 'no.'"

So me saying I suspect and you saying it is likely means we agree! Wouldn't it have been easier to just say that?


----------



## Catherder

A few thoughts;

1. On the new coach, I'm not thrilled with Stotts. His Portland teams were some of the best in offense rating, but consistently near the bottom of the league in defensive rating. Does that sound like a "solution", especially if Gobert is sent on his way? The other names I have heard like Alex Jensen, Jonnie Bryant, Adrian Griffin are all unproven and it is hard to say how they will do. A new coach worked out pretty well for the Celtics this year. Especially if the front office "blows it up" and rebuilds, that may be the way to go. 

2. A few trades I have heard worth discussion. 

Mitchell to Knicks for Barrett, Quickly, Fournette and a #1. Maybe, but I think we could do better. Maybe the Knicks would toss in an extra #1 for the hometown boy. It wouldn't be a fire sale though. 
Mitchell to Heat for Tyler Herro, Duncan Robinson, either their backup center or Oladipo and a #1. TBH, I kind of like that one. 
Mitchell to Hawks for Hunter, Collins, a #1 and some flotsam. We would have a dynamic frontcourt and our defense would be light years better. Maybe.
Gobert to Hawks for much of the same except it would be Capela and not Collins. Hmmm.
Gobert to Raptors for OG Anuoby and Gary Trent. Maybe, if Mitchell chills. Perimeter defensive upgrade for loss of anchor, but maybe Mitchell can be persuaded to play better D. If Mitchell were indeed a happy camper and team chemistry improved, this could work.

Ive heard a couple more that weren't worth discussing or I forgot about. 



PBH said:


> I wonder if Las Vegas is looking for an NBA team?


Ugh, who would we name our newly created/uncreated National Parks and monuments after? Phil Lyman and Travis Seegmiller? 
Vegas doesn't need the Jazz. They got hockey and football.


----------



## caddis8

Vanilla said:


> So me saying I suspect and you saying it is likely means we agree! Wouldn't it have been easier to just say that?


I cannot agree with an attorney directly. Makes egos too big. 🤣


----------



## Vanilla

Catherder, 

I like that we are talking specifics! Those trades are interesting, and I'm waiting on a reply to an email before I can proceed with a project, so here we go! I have got to think the Jazz have sat down and talked with Mitchell about his plans and desires. It's possible he has not been forthright, but I hope they are all communicating about realities here. Same with Gobert, and they have full disclosure that one of these two, if not both, need to go. That is where I base my opinion here: 

NYK trade: This one is interesting. Get some young, long wings and a 1st round pick (maybe 2 under your proposal). Knicks draft 11 this year, so a chance for another decent player. Latest ESPN mock draft has NYK taking AJ Griffin there. Another intriguing player, very young but a great shooter. Some injury history, so they'd have to be comfortable. If they threw in the 2nd first round pick, I'd make this trade. 

Heat trade: according to ESPN trade machine, that trade doesn't work because of salaries. Heat would have to include about $5 million more in salary coming back to Jazz to make it work. 

Hawks trades: I think I'd do either of these trades. 

Raptors Trade: Nope. Only person I'm dealing with Raptors is Siakam, and I don't think he's available.


----------



## Catherder

Working on some "boss stuff" and records, so I have a moment too. 

1. I heard about that potential Miami trade from the Bleacher report on my phone news feed. They may have thrown in some detritus to get the salaries closer or anticipated a 3 way trade to get it done. Considering Herro was 6th man of year this season, this one intrigues me the most. Not that Herro is as good of scorer as Don or even similar superstar potential, but he is capable offensively and a defensive upgrade. I really thought Oladipo gave the Heat a lift in the postseason and would like to see him with the Jazz. 

2. I wouldn't sell Anouby short. Long, athletic wing defender who can get you buckets as well. The problem is the other guys couldn't remain sieves because of the reduced rim protection. Trent is not chopped liver either.

3. On the Knicks trade, I have heard next years #1, but I suppose that is open to negotiations.


----------



## PBH

Chicago may be renaming the Sears Tower to the Gobert Tower.

Makes you wonder if the Jazz trying to trade Gobert for weeks had anything to do with Snyder turning down his contract, and resigning. 

#RGGSENM


----------



## Vanilla

There are only a few people that know the answer to why Quin doesn't want to coach this team anymore, but we know for sure that he does not want to coach this team. Reasons at this point really don't matter, if we're being honest.

As for the Bulls trade:

Rudy for Vucevic and Patrick Williams? I'm guessing the Jazz would ask for a pick in addition as well. Not a terrible trade, but some of the others Catherder presented may be better. It takes two to tango, however. And I've said for multiple years on this forum talking about the Donovan and Rudy dynamic that the organization would pick Donovan over Rudy. This should not be a suprise to anyone. Rudy is elite at what he does, but it isn't good enough to move the needle for this team. Get what you can get out of him, get the best coach you can, and see what you can do.

*Edit: and just so people don't think this is new that the Jazz are considering trading Rudy, here is an article from over a week ago on our own KSL talking about it. 









Report: Utah Jazz 'Weighing Trade Possibilities' For Rudy Gobert


Bleacher Report's Jake Fischer reported that the Utah Jazz are "weighing trade possibilities" for Rudy Gobert."




kslsports.com


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> I wonder if Las Vegas is looking for an NBA team?
> 
> Blow it up.💣











New billionaire LeBron says he wants Vegas team


LeBron James said he wants to own an NBA team in Las Vegas in the latest episode of his talk show, "The Shop."




www.espn.com





LeBron James owning the Las Vegas Jazz? PBH might be onto something here...


----------



## PBH

The title of the thread says it all: Initial impressions?

New color scheme is.....blah.


----------



## PBH

not sure about the bland black / white / yellow. but I'm good with the purple! They should add a purple outline to the numbers / letters on the new stuff...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537842541474656256


----------



## Vanilla

This was such an utter fail by Ryan Smith. He wanted a rebrand to black and urine highlighter yellow, because he’s just not in touch.

They leak the jerseys I linked here weeks ago and got tons of backlash, because 1- they are ugly; and 2- they have no connection to Jazz history. He reads his Twitter timeline and realizes “Crap, I done stepped in it here!”

To his credit he tries to backtrack and because of deadlines with Nike and the league they can’t change it. So they throw in a previously approved purple mountain 1997 kit and say “Purple is back!” But you’re going to have to wait until 2023 to see anything new…

What a cluster. I’m glad Smith is trying to fix it rather than dig his heels in. But he has to own this one, and it’s a MAJOR FAIL!

I could have designed better jerseys in 10 minutes using free online software than this team did in months of rebranding. Those black jerseys look like bad AAU uniforms. I sure hope Ryan Smith has better people advising him on the next coach than he did on this rebrand. If the team is going to suck, the least they can do is look good and have nice gear for fans to purchase while sucking.


----------



## CPAjeff

I think the Jazz should move to Vegas.


----------



## Catherder

It looks like the flat brimmed hat crowd can get some new Jazz hats before they go out on their next hunt, taking "google certified" unethical archery shots. 

Yeah, I'm underwhelmed with the new uniforms and scheme, although the purple retro unis will be a welcome sight. I will miss the recent black and orange jerseys we wore the past couple of years. I liked those.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Catherder said:


> It looks like the flat brimmed hat crowd can get some new Jazz hats before they go out on their next hunt, taking "google certified" unethical archery shots.
> 
> Yeah, I'm underwhelmed with the new uniforms and scheme, although the purple retro unis will be a welcome sight. I will miss the recent black and orange jerseys we wore the past couple of years. I liked those.


It’s funny. The same comments on a hunting forum as on Twitter and anywhere else lol. This yellow/black/white rebrand leaked months ago, including the jerseys they released today. The reaction was so negative they clearly threw in the purple mountain that already existed and headlined the rebrand with it because they knew they screwed this up so bad. Unfortunately once they had made the decision and the leaks happened, it was too late to turn back. Nike’s agreement is binding once you set a style on something (5 years I believe). This was a horrible rebrand, and the only reason the purple got added (which is what everyone loves) is because of the overwhelming negative reaction to the yellow/black/white color scheme when it leaked and the purple mountain already had been produced by Nike so they let it release for this season. Ryan Smiths goal here was to solidify Utah Jazz colors. When you think of Lakers you think purple/gold. Knicks are orange and blue. Golden State is Blue and Yellow. His issue was you think of the Utah Jazz and no specific colors come to mind. He wanted to change that. The issue is, he bought a team that had been in its current market for 30+ years and had nostalgia and history attached to it. And with that, the best days of Jazz basketball (Stockton/Malone era) are the colors and jerseys that most fans find most appealing. The problem with the rebrand is those colors and jerseys literally mean nothing to a franchise that’s existed for over 3 decades in the same market. If you’re going to rebrand fo with mountains…purple, blue, and white….the most nostalgic and popular colors and scheme in the franchises history. I’d this was the OKC Thunder when they moved to OKC sure do a brand new color scheme and rebrand, but you can’t do that with a franchise that has a 30+ year history and attachment to it’s fans.

The biggest marketing tell that they knew they made a mistake originally, is that yellow/black/white was the rebrand….but the J note in front of the arena is purple with mountains. The headlines are about mountains and purple being back. They basically want to say hey we’re sorry, Nike wouldn’t let us scrap the rebrand so we’re gonna highlight the purple and mountain jersey you all love that’s existed for 20 years as our rebrand while pretending like the 75% of our jerseys we’ll be wearing next season weren’t the actual rebrand we ***** up royally on…..I guess if nothing else they’re listening to fans because fan reaction is the only reason there’s purple or mountains still involved.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

CPAjeff said:


> I think the Jazz should move to Vegas.


Smith is never going to move the Jazz to Vegas. He loves Utah, and the Jazz are his outlet to the world to tell Utahs story and try to change the perception of Utah. He even uses both the Jazz and Utah as marketing tools for employment recruitment for Qualtrics. He’s rich enough I honestly think he could care less if he loses money on the Jazz. He’d love to win a title, but I think he’d love to change Utahs reputation on a national and world wide scale even more tbh.


----------



## Catherder

Is this the end?









Rudy Gobert removes Jazz affiliation from Instagram profile on Draft Day


If you look at Rudy Gobert's Instagram page, you wouldn't immediately know he's a center for the Utah Jazz.




kutv.com





Back to Jewell, Zinke, Haaland, Stewart National Monument?


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## PBH

It's too late now. We should have renamed it two years ago.



but, hey, at least we have a bridge at the Gateway Mall named after Mitchell. We can all be proud about that.


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> It's too late now. We should have renamed it two years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> but, hey, at least we have a bridge at the Gateway Mall named after Mitchell. We can all be proud about that.



What are they going to do with that bridge when Don is with the Knicks? Rename it the Danny Ainge bridge? (Cougarfans will vote for that) Or how about the Bolerjack bridge? Walkability.


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## PBH




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## CPAjeff

The current roster of the Jazz is so far from being competitive against the top teams in the league when it really comes down to it.

It'll be interesting to see what the future holds.


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## Vanilla

Catherder said:


> Is this the end?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rudy Gobert removes Jazz affiliation from Instagram profile on Draft Day
> 
> 
> If you look at Rudy Gobert's Instagram page, you wouldn't immediately know he's a center for the Utah Jazz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kutv.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back to Jewell, Zinke, Haaland, Stewart National Monument?


Let's hope so!


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