# Consistent Inconsistencies...?



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

So, I've been working on loads for three separate rifles lately. A .243, .270 and a 7mm.

Just when I think I've found the sweet spot, the groups go all to hell...with all else being the same. Anyone ever experience this? What's the main cause do you suppose?

I feel I spend an overkill amount of time during case prep getting everything just right, I hand meter with a trickler every load and write the specific recipes down every time. I thought one of the main reasons to take up reloading was to have consistent performance but that just doesn't seem to be the case.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

maybe you clean your rifle too much and don't let the copper build up to equal librium. This would be my guess. There is a sweet spot and it may take 5-20 rounds to get it to the sweet spot and then you go home and clean it all out and have to start over. Or you shoot a bunch of shells through the sweet spot and the barrel gets tight and causes velocity or pressure spikes causing the groups to open up. This means its time to clean and start over

Maybe your using a bipod and putting the bipod on a on a hard surface. This can account for random flyers


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I do clean my barrel with Hoppes No.9 after every range trip. Usually brush them out as well. I had been considering this, but sometimes it's the first round of shells that shoot best and other times it's the last. So even that isn't entirely consistent...example.

This weekend the 7mm shot its best group on the 12-16th shots. I had 4 different loads worked up in 4 round groups. The last group was 160gr. Accubonds in FL sized 2x fired Hornady brass over 61gr os IMR 4831. It put 3 of the shots within the edges of a quarter, the 4th was about 1/4" outside of that. The first time I ever shot these loads it also shot great right of the start...not 12 shots in.

Last weekend the .243 shot a nice 4 shot group with a certain charge weight so I started there and went up .5 two times. This weekend the first group was terrible (this is the same load that was excellent last week), the middle group (.5 hotter) shot the best (.5-.75" group) and the hottest load shot terrible again. So again, not consistent.

I also thought I was right on top of a great load for the .270 but this weekend's groups has me rethinking that.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Sounds like maybe the rifles, not the loads are the cause. If the rifle starts out shooting good for the first few rounds and then slowly goes to hell, chances are its either the gun...needs bedding or floating, etc...or it might be the shooter. Although you're not shooting large, heavy recoiling guns, fatigue and weariness can become a factor. 
Look for patterns in your groups. Are they climbing or pulling in one direction, or just opening up in all directions?


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

BTW: I didn't brush the barrels out after this trip...I guess I was thinking the same thing about the over cleaning.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

BPturkeys said:


> Sounds like maybe the rifles, not the loads are the cause. If the rifle starts out shooting good for the first few rounds and then slowly goes to hell, chances are its either the gun...needs bedding or floating, etc...or it might be the shooter. Although you're not shooting large, heavy recoiling guns, fatigue and weariness can become a factor.
> Look for patterns in your groups. Are they climbing or pulling in one direction, or just opening up in all directions?


They all seem to shoot consistently high but not by much. I'm using a gun rest when I shoot these to reduce the operator error.

Plan was to get a load that shoots good groups consistently, even if they are high or right, etc. then adjust the scope to bring them in to spec. with my shooting. I want to take the operator out of the equation and let the load/gun determine what shoots best.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

NEVER use a wire brush in a rifle.... EVER. You are just putting un-needed wear on your riflings.

You want to deep clean, use this stuff... its fantastic:

http://www.sharpshootr.com/wipe-out/

*-*DallanC


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Most of my brushes are nylon but point taken.


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

Out of curiousity are these all factory barrels? Do they foul really bad?
Most the time when a load cannot be duplicated it isn't the best load for the rifle ie close to redlining etc. 
How do you develop your load, do you do say a 300 yard ladder to start and fine tune from there? Can you give more detail?
Thanks


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

One group does not a good (or bad) load make. Do your rifles say "Winchester" on the side of them? Using a "gun rest" does not always help, either. How it allows the rifle to recoil will have an affect on your groups. You haven't said how large (or small) the groups are. Or what your expectations are. Not all rifles are capable of shooting MOA. Most shooters are not, either. There are too many unknown variables to diagnose your issues over the internet.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

DallanC said:


> NEVER use a wire brush in a rifle.... EVER. You are just putting un-needed wear on your riflings.
> 
> You want to deep clean, use this stuff... its fantastic:
> 
> ...


Interesting stuff....I have a couple of milsurps I would like to try this out on. Can you buy it locally or just through their website?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Based on your load data, I'm guessing that you are shooting a 7MM Remington Mag. They are notorious for having sloppy chambers.You will be much better off if you neck size your brass, not full length size them. They will fit your gun better and be more consistent. How many different powders have you tried? I'm also going to assume that your rifle has a sporter weight barrel. 4 shots is enough to start heating it up enough to affect your groups. Let it cool between shots. Also, what shape are your groups? Where they land in relation to your aiming point is irrelevant. What is important is where they land in relation to each other, and in what order.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm going with bptukerys on this most likely is the rifle. Had the same scenario ended up being the stock (plastic) put on a new stock problems went away.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

LostLouisianian said:


> Interesting stuff....I have a couple of milsurps I would like to try this out on. Can you buy it locally or just through their website?


I ordered it off amazon. I found it from a thread talking about cleaning methods. Some guy posted a picture of a AR15 barrel with bright blue foam coming out the end... that gun he said had 7,800 rounds through it w/o a cleaning.

A little goes a long way! I made my own extension spout with some clear flexible vinyl hose I had, I run it down a chamber till it gets tight around the neck area and give it a 2 second squirt. Hold it in place for a few more seconds as the foam expands down the barrel. Let it sit a bit then run a patch down it. Any blue on the patch just repeat. Love the stuff.

*EDIT: found the thread, it was 7800 rounds through it w/o cleaning

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_489/222278_WIPE_OUT__PATCH_OUT_and_TACTICAL_ADVANTAGE_test.html

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> NEVER use a wire brush in a rifle.... EVER. You are just putting un-needed wear on your riflings.
> 
> You want to deep clean, use this stuff... its fantastic:
> 
> ...


I wonder how it would work with a Bore Szueeg-E cleaning system


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Bob L. said:


> Out of curiousity are these all factory barrels? Do they foul really bad?
> Most the time when a load cannot be duplicated it isn't the best load for the rifle ie close to redlining etc.
> How do you develop your load, do you do say a 300 yard ladder to start and fine tune from there? Can you give more detail?
> Thanks


Yes these are all factory rifles, not just the barrels but everything.

The .270 is a Model 700 ADL that I have been shooting factory ammo out of since I was 18.
The .243 is a Savage Axis that I got my son several years ago.
The 7mm is a Browning X-Bolt Stainless that I bought in December. 26" barrel.



Loke said:


> One group does not a good (or bad) load make. Do your rifles say "Winchester" on the side of them? Using a "gun rest" does not always help, either. How it allows the rifle to recoil will have an affect on your groups. You haven't said how large (or small) the groups are. Or what your expectations are. Not all rifles are capable of shooting MOA. Most shooters are not, either. There are too many unknown variables to diagnose your issues over the internet.


I occasionally get 1/2 - 3/4" groups @ 100 yards with all of those rifles but the next time I try the exact same load it could be up to 2 - 2.5" That is why I can't figure out what the issue seems to be.

So far I am using IMR 4831 for all three rifles and loading to the exact specs in the Hornady and Nosler handbooks depending on the bullet. I just yesterday picked up some RL22 to try in the 7mm, but now am reading horror stories about it's temperature sensitivity.

I know the .270 really likes the 140gr Hyper-Sonic factory rounds by Remington (supposed to be their version of the Superformance) so I found some 140gr. SST that I'm going to load and see if the added weight helps at all. I'd been shooting the 130gr. Interlock because I had them around.

I am using 100gr. Interlock in the .243 and when it does group, it does it really well.

I would be plenty happy with 1" groups since these only need to be Big Game accurate at reasonable distances...as long as those 1" were all the time. Hard to be confident when every trigger pull could result in something different.


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

Typically when you have a flyer that ruins the group something is hitting/binding. Depending on how much you want to spend, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have those rifles bedded or get rid of the factory stocks if they are plastic.
I also think trigger pull effects groups. You could also take it to a smith to have them look over to see if they see something obvious.
All my rifles the barrels are free floated and bedded.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

KineKilla said:


> Yes these are all factory rifles, not just the barrels but everything.
> 
> The .270 is a Model 700 ADL that I have been shooting factory ammo out of since I was 18.
> The .243 is a Savage Axis that I got my son several years ago.
> ...


How are the screws on the scopes? everything snugged up right?


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Yeah, the scopes are fine. 99% sure anyways. I've checked them.










This is the last and best group out of the 7mm this weekend. I'd be glad if I knew it would shoot like this every time.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

My STW (big brother to the 7Rem Mag) loves 7828. Tried RL25/22/19, tried H1000 ... 7828 worked the best for me.


-DallanC


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Keep track of the temperatures that you come up with your loads in. RL powders are known for being very temperature sensitive. I do 90% of my load development in temperatures similar to those I would expect to see on the mountain during hunting season. Also, make sure you are letting your barrel cool. I notice my groups start to climb after about the 6 shot. Especially in overbored guns such as the 7mm mag, those things heat up quick.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Mine seems to shoot better after several rounds down the tube. Which is also disheartening because it's the first shot that counts.

This is Utah and I am a rifle hunter so temps on the mountain in October can rarely be duplicated down here in the valley, but you do what you can.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I go to the range in Bountiful with sits at about 5500ft and my shooting season is Nov-Jan usually. Morning temps in the mountains late October are similar to daytime temps in Nov-Jan or at least close enough that I have not noticed a big difference in groups. Now take the same load I develop in Nov-Jan that shoots sub-moa and shoot it in the summer months and I'm lucky to shoot 1 1/2" groups. Ive noticed that even powders that claim to be stable, vary to some extent depending on the deviation in temps. Same thing applies to loads Ive put together in summer and shot in winter in the past.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You oil your gun more for the potentially foul weather? Oiled bores can POI shift over dry bores. Noticed that in my Smokepoles.

-DallanC


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Light oiling whenever extended storage or foul weather are likely. Even then it's mostly very light. I used to be an oilholic but have since wised up.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Went to the range again on Friday. Was getting sub par groups averaging 1.5-1.7". I shot 4, 4 shot groups allowing the barrel to cool between groups. All loads were 160gr. Accubonds and IMR 4831. Differences were neck sized or full sized brass, 61, 62gr. of powder.

Wasn't real impressed until I overlaid the 4 targets. Now I see that it did group fairly well across the board but not in the individual groups. I'm going to try a different powder and see what happens (RL-22)


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I would not jump to any conclusion on the accuracy potential of any of these rifles based on using one powder, especially one that is not known as ideal for any of the three calibers (at least in my somewhat limited experience). You may find better results with the Hodgdon powders. I have. My go-to powder in the 270 is H4831. It is not the same as its IMR namesake. In my 243 I use Varget. I have no use for the 7mm mag, so I'm no help there. I have gotten decent results with H1000 in my 300 mag, so that might be worth a try. Good luck, and enjoy the hunt for the perfect load. Just don't expect to find it with the first one you try.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Keep us posted if you figure it out. I like these type of learning posts.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I think you'll like RL-22 and the 160 AB . Every rifle is different, but RL-22 has shot well in my 7RM with 162 Amax and the 160 AB.

RL-22 was also the bees knees in my 270 WSM with 3 different bullets (Barnes 130 TTSX, Hornady 130 SST, Nosler 140 AB).

Maybe I'm just a little biased.... ;-)


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I've read good things about the RL-22 however it does seem to be more temp sensitive (according to online forums, etc.) Than some other powders. This is a little concerning since I live and practice in SLC but hunt in typically colder weather.

Its been fun and educational thus far, learning to reload and seeing results on paper.


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