# Decided to try a scope



## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

Put a nikon 3x9 on my t/c omega, wife bought me the stock for christmas. Just need to get out and shoot, hopefully next weekend.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

With the law changing this year to allowing higher magnification than 1x I don't know why not. 

If I didn't hunt Colorado where scopes are not allowed I would put one on mine also.


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## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

I was able to leave my iron sight on just in case I bump the scope or to take it off to hunt nevada.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I am visually challenged so I had to put a peep sight on my muzzle loader since I can not focus on three things at once. So to install a scope I would need to remove it.


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## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

Finally had a chance to go shoot. Borrowed a bore sight and within 10 shots was hitting rocks the size of my hand at 160yrds. More fine tuning and practice, it'll be interesting to see what it will do.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

That's great you are killing rocks at 160 yds. I just hope that hunters will remember that the ML is NOT a rifle to shoot at distances that a Center fire will. It isn't a .50-06 -O,-


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## hnt4food (Oct 28, 2009)

Modern muzzle loaders are perfectly capable of making a lethal 250yrd shot with a scope. As I've looked into the ballistics with new muzzle loader bullets and powder they are about equal to my 30-30


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## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

Definitely not a 30-06, but I'm sure modern muzzleloader are more than capable out to 250 yards. Anything past that I wouldn't try, and until I can shoot consistently out at 250 I won't try those shots on big game. I shot my le elk at 175 yrds with open sights, only because I put in the time and had practiced and knew what my limits were.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Uh huh...

You do know in a 10mph cross wind your ML bullet will deflect by as much as 17" at 250 yards. Not saying people wont, or cant make shots like this... but most people dont realize all of the variables here. Its going to be a disaster.


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Uh huh...
> 
> You do know in a 10mph cross wind your ML bullet will deflect by as much as 17" at 250 yards. Not saying people wont, or cant make shots like this... but most people dont realize all of the variables here. Its going to be a disaster.
> 
> -DallanC


You mean that I can't just slap a 3x9 scope onto my ML load up 3 50 grain pellets, slam that 250 grain saboted bullet down the barrel and shoot out to 300 yards? :llama:_O\\

Perhaps we need a ballistic chart to show just what that bullet is going to do over that 250-300 yards along with how much energy it will loose while getting there.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I did post a chart back when this was being discussed / passed.


-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Dallanc, still got that chart? I'd like to see it. 

Interesting on the cross wind info. Definitely not something the average joe (like me) would know.


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## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

Yes I'm well aware of wind and muzzleloader hunting, I appreciate the reminder. Something everyone should be aware of no matter the weapon of choice. I've been hunting exclusively with a muzzleloader since 1991, and I dont think anyone thinks they can slap a scope on and shoot 300 or more yards. When I say I was hitting rocks the size of my hand at 160 yrds I was merely stating how fast I had it sighted in. Anyone try those kind of shots with open sights? It takes a lot more practice when your sight covers your target at that range..... the thing that's always messed me up while hunting is that **** buck fever. Someone show me some charts on how to fight that and I'll fill more tags.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You can run your own numbers here: http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=PointBlankOnline

This is my deer hunting Load. 125 yard zero, puts me at a 150yard pointblank range. Vast majority of my shots have been sub 100 yards.










-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Pretty fascinating to see the data. Just taking Dallan's chart, it's pretty revealing. 

Even with a scope, I don't know how you hold to compensate for a 3 1/2 foot holdover and almost 4 feet of wind drift at 300 yards. At 400 yards you are dropping over 8 feet! Am I reading that correctly? 

As stated by others, slapping a 3x9 on your muzzy is not going to make 300 yard shots doable for the vast majority of hunters. If anything, this chart convinces me to still not shoot beyond 150-200 yards, even with the scope.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Well to be fair, thats with my sight in... a person can sight in for a 300 yard zero... but then they are over 18" high at 150. Scope cant overcome the physics... people that understand it, are already shooting long distances. But these new yahoos that think throwing a 9x scope on their smokepole and expect to shoot 300 yards are in for a rude awakening (and frankly need a asskicking)


-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

A 125 yard zero for a muzzy seems like a reasonable distance. You know many guys out there sighting there muzzy in at 300 yards?


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## hnt4food (Oct 28, 2009)

Hornady suggest 3" high at 100 yrds which gives you a point blank range of 200 yds with a 6" window. If you expand that to an 8" window and zero at 200 yds that gives you a point blank range of about 240 yds. 250 yrds is a reasonable range for muzzle loaders, you just need to know how your gun performs


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

8" diameter window is terrible for deer. Its GREAT for off the bench shooting but in real world conditions? How exact is your bullet placement? Figuring a PBR based on 8" diameter killzone is only good if you can exactly place that bullet in the dead center of that 8" window. In real world conditions I doubt very many people are getting that close to dead center. If most are merely 4" off you are now outside of that killbox.

People need to reduce that window size based on average error in their shooting. Get off the bench, try some shots off hand, kneeling, leaning on a tree. Get that average and THEN figure out your window.

As you can see by my chart above for my rife, I like a 5" window which gives a PBR of about 150 yards. I dont always get a prone rest on a rock with plenty of time to get steady. Virtually every deer I've shot in the past 20 years has been jumping over to the nearest tree, quick kneel, steady and *boom*.

But hey if 8" works for you go for it... but I really think alot of your shots will fall outside of that.


-DallanC


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## hnt4food (Oct 28, 2009)

The point of point blank range is that you don't have to hit dead center for a kill shot. The point is as long as the target is within the max range you aim dead center and you will hit the vitals area. It could be 4" high to 4" low. A mule deer vital are is about 11" dia and elk is about 14" so that gives you some room for error. If someone shot is 4" off point of aim they need more practice or take more time to steady and make a good shot


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

hnt4food said:


> If someone shot is 4" off point of aim they need more practice or take more time to steady and make a good shot


How many gutshot or hind shot animals have you seen? Those are FEET off target, not inches. 4" off point of aim at 100 yards is still a very dead deer.

We'll just agree to disagree.

-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Gunworks out of Wyoming has a You Tube video of a 600yd. shot. (Target of course) Impressive on paper, but I'm sure the bullet would have next to nothing for energy to lethally take an animal. This thread could be argued for ever I'm sure.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I put a 3-9x on my muzzy and have done a bunch of shooting. I have come to the conclusion that my maximum range is STILL somewhere around 200 yards but that I am much more accurate within that range. I only hope that others come to that same conclusion. Within 200 yards I can meet my 'minute of milk jug' standard......that is, I never miss a milk jug shooting from field positions. My M.O.M distance for offhand shooting is about 75-100 yards with a muzzy or modern rifle. I bet most folks aren't much better. ---SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I crono'd my elk load at 1650fps (300gr XTP over 110 pyrodex). That keeps me at 175 yard theoretical max. My own max is closer, somewhere in the 150yard range. Never needed a longer shot in 30 years of ML hunting. The vast majority are still under 100 yards.


-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I always hate chronographing loads with sabots. When the smoke clears, I'm looking to see what's left of my sky screens. Hopefully, Sky screens will soon be a thing of the past with the new chronograph technologies that are becoming more available. I shoot 110 grains of BH 209 behind a 250 SST. -----SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> I always hate chronographing loads with sabots. When the smoke clears, I'm looking to see what's left of my sky screens. Hopefully, Sky screens will soon be a thing of the past with the new chronograph technologies that are becoming more available. I shoot 110 grains of BH 209 behind a 250 SST. -----SS


Heh... i bought some plexiglass covers for my cronograph to try and protect it from all the debris.

-DallanC


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