# otter creek



## Kingfisher

hit otter creek friday eve and saturday. boated a total of 3 in about 6 to 7 hours of fishing. nice bows, but extremely slow. had more bites than hook ups, went smaller hook with still no more success. they would tap and run. the ones we did boat hit hard and hooked themselves deep. quite a few out on the pond and on shore with no one really lighting it up. many we spoke with had none, the max was 4. we trolled with dodger and worm, jakes, rapalas, spoons, tried a tackle box of stuff. the most consistent was dodger, worm tipped with an anise marshmallow. the upper end of the reservoir has pretty clear water, stuff by the dam is very murky. east for above and below is running bank full and over.


----------



## Mrad

Otter creek has bit the big one this year.


----------



## PBH

Mrad said:


> Otter creek has bit the big one this year.


Because anglers can't catch them?

Truth is, Otter Creek has a thriving, healthy population of very nice trout. Sometimes, you just can't catch them.

Anglers have bit the big one this year.


----------



## Mrad

:O||:


----------



## neverdrawn

Given a little time for things to settle, I bet the fishermen make a big comeback. Otter always has been a fickle lake, but as it warms up and the lake clears I think things will turn for the guys holding the poles.


----------



## Jacksonman

Is there anything that PBH doesn't know? :roll:

He seems to have the fish so tuned in that he knows exactly what is going on at every lake in Utah, probably the whole west coast for that matter. I wonder who knows more about the fishing in Utah, God or PBH?

Who created the first fish, God or PBH?

Why have several species of fish gone extinct? PBH decided that he no longer liked that species of fish.

Why is fishing so good in Utah? Because PBH made it so.

What came first? PBH or fishing?

Did you know that PBH is record holder for trophy fish in states he hasn't even fished yet!?

Do you know why Jesus told his disciples to toss their nets to the other side of the boat? Because PBH told Jesus that's where the fish would be.

Now to answer the original question:

From what I have seen from reports and personal experience, Otter Creek has slowly declined in fishing quality and quantity over the past 2-3 years. I heard the water quality was bad for a while, that the lake was drained pretty low and got very warm one summer, and right now it is probably very stained. There are obviously still some nice fish in there, but it seems like the current situation is much poorer than it was a few years ago.

Cue PBH ...

--------------

[exclamation:1ea4swyb][/exclamation:1ea4swyb]_ Personal attacks like this, no matter how humorous one intends them to be, just aren't cool here. Please don't make posts like this. And please read through and follow the forum rules.

- The moderators_


----------



## orvis1

o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| 


I got a feeling this is going to get good..


----------



## PBH

orvis1 said:


> o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-||
> 
> I got a feeling this is going to get good..





Steven Tyler said:


> Ladies and gentlemen... step right up
> Let's go see the elephant...





jax said:


> Cue PBH ...


you call me out (personal attack? I thought that was against the rules?) and expect me to not comment?

Jackson -- what's your issue with me? Please take it offline. PM me if you like. I'd be willing to work it out with you. Please don't clutter up the forums with your personal issues.

As for Otter Creek, your info is dated:

1. Otter is NOT in decline. It is actually hitting it's peak.
2. Water quality has been somewhat an issue, but only for anglers. The fish are doing very well -- fish LIKE water! Only the lower end of the reservoir is "stained". Mid-lake, and up is actually pretty good quality -- at least for a lake that NEVER get's "clear".
3. The lake was drained a few years ago (2003 I believe?) -- it didn't get "warm", it got dry. But, water levels have been good for a number of years now, which means the fish are doing well.



jaxson said:


> There are obviously still some nice fish in there, but it seems like the current situation is much poorer than it was a few years ago.


a few years ago? You mean when the lake was drained pretty low and got very warm?

come on dude -- if you have some first-hand information that might be useful for other anglers concerning Otter Creek, then please feel free to comment. But, you obviously don't. You don't know Otter Creek, and your information is dated. If you want to harass me, fine -- but please do it in a pm so others don't have deal with your meaningless drivel.


----------



## Jacksonman

2003 was not a few years ago. That was almost a decade ago. 

Few, defined by the on-line dictionary:

few (fy)
adj. few·er, few·est
1. Amounting to or consisting of a small number: one of my few bad habits.
2. Being more than one but indefinitely small in number: bowled a few strings.
n. (used with a pl. verb)

So using the correct definition, few years ago would be 2007-2009. Fishing was phenomenal then. Whether it be that there were more fish and bigger fish, or the fish were just easier to catch and have now become so smart that very few who used to be able to catch them are no longer able to, I guess that is up to debate. 

But I have fished it a few times per year for the last 3 or 4 years and have watched reports and traded reports with friends over the last few years and the general consensus is that Otter has been in decline for a "few" years. If YOU have some inside information, besides your infinite knowledge and opinions, please share, because just about everyone on here that I have spoken with in person or read their reports have differing opinions than you. 

Just stop trying to pretend like you know everything about every water while trying to make people look like fools. Someone who is consistently putting others down while trying to build themselves up while maintaining a ****y attitude throughout needs some help. 

I completely expected you to comment and I expect you to continue commenting. Giddy-up.


----------



## PBH

come on jackson. you're holding a grudge. Let's have a man-hug and put this all behind us.

You mentioned that Otter Creek was drained, not me -- which year was that? 2009? In 2009 the lake levels were no different than than 2011 or 2008, with the exception that in March, the lake continued to fill. So, your own definition kind of strikes your original post as erroneous. Tell me: when did the lake get "drained low and get warm"?

You and your cronies may be experiencing some bad luck with fishing so far this year. Others have not had the same experience. You obviously haven't had the same experience as this angler: 




I don't try to claim I know everything. To the contrary, I keep my opinions to things that I know something about, which is typically southern Utah waters. I speak up when I feel like something needs to be said -- unlike others who speak up just to say something.

The facts are this:

1. Otter Creek is currently full, as is Koosharem, Panguitch Lake, Piute, and Yuba (87% capacity). This spells good news for the fish in Otter Creek. Fish like water.
2. Clarity in the southern half of the lake has been poor due to high runoff from the EF Sevier, when water was being diverted into the lake.
3. When Otter Creek has periods of good water (high water levels) the trout historically have thrived.
4. There is no reason to think that the quality of trout populations in Otter Creek are in trouble. UDWR trend sampling have shown otherwise.
5. One are of concern would be rainbow trout exiting the lake via the spillway. This is something that has occurred at other reservoirs in southern Utah during prolonged periods of water spilling out the spillway. However, this would be a future affect, not something that would have caused poor fishing for the last couple months. While taking away some fish from the reservoir, this would probably cause an increase in angler success in the river below the reservoir.
6. Some anglers have experienced tough fishing this spring at Otter Creek. Much of this is attributed to water quality. THAT'S FISHING. IT ISN'T ALWAYS GOOD. There is no reason to think that the fish population's are in trouble simply due to poor angler success during a period of high water.


----------



## Jacksonman

Don't get me wrong. I am not an Otter expert. From what I know the lake was drained very low when Piute was drained which I believe was 2 or 3 years ago. The lake wasn't drained completely but was very low. I remember reading how the low water which got very warm mixed with the poor quality really hurt the fish population in Otter. The previous two years before that the fishing was great, the last few years have showed a consistent decline with few large fish and more small fish showing up.

Obviously there are still some good fish in there, and if a fishermen hits the right spot at the right time, can have himself a great day. 

But the fishing is nothing like it was 3 or 4 years ago when everyone caught fish and nice ones too. You can't dispute that. A few years ago, it seemed like 8 or 9 out of 10 "trips" were great while it now appears to be 1-3 trips out of 10. 

The general consensus by the large majority of fishermen that I personally know and fish with and others on all the forums is that Otter is fishing poorly for the past 2-3 years compared to how it historically has fished. You are the only one that seems to think differently. How can you be so sure of yourself?

I don't think Otter is in trouble. I think the lake will recover just fine if we have a few more years of decent water. 

Sure the lake is healthy right now as far as amount of water and quality, but all that does for current fishing is spread out the reduced amount of fish in the lake. Hopefully the next 2 or 3 years are just as good to the lake and we can see the Otter of 2006-2008. 

Curtain.


----------



## PBH

Jacksonman said:


> But the fishing is nothing like it was 3 or 4 years ago when everyone caught fish and nice ones too....A few years ago,* it seemed like* 8 or 9 out of 10 "trips" were great while *it now appears* to be 1-3 trips out of 10.


Isn't that how it always is? "you should have been here yesterday!"

It's funny how our memories work. The glory days. The good 'ol days. Whatever. Fishing was ALWAYS better "a few years ago". As time goes on, the fish we caught yesterday grow larger. We forget the bad, and remember the good -- and the good gets better and better as time goes on. It seemed like.

We've had some tough fishing this spring. I am excited for what is yet to come this fall. With the amount of water we're seeing across the state, we should look forward to the future, and reap the benefits in the coming year.

there. Doesn't that feel better jared? See what happens when two people put aside their differences and hug it out instead of duke it out? I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Thank you.


----------



## Grandpa D

Hey guys,
get a room!


----------



## Julio-Gus

Give it up Jax... Ain't gonna get anywhere with it.


----------



## holman927

Thanks for the report! We were at Fish lake over the weekend and fishing was slow there as well. The 40 mile an hour winds didnt help fishing.


----------



## Tylert

PBH Thanks for the information. You are very informative because you study each body of water. What the conditions are at each body of water and how it relates from year to year. I enjoy reading your posts and the information you provide is correct. A few post ago you were talking about otter creek and the run off conditions flowing into otter creek. It was informative and taught me a few things about water flow and run off conditions. Don't let the people that don't do their research let you down.  keep up the good posts and knowledge!


----------



## LOAH

I personally haven't caught a "smaller" fish from OC in 3 years. But that's only a total of about 5 trips. FWIW.

PBH is a knowledgeable person and comes from knowledgeable people who have a bit of an inside edge on background type of information, which translates into some handy FYI's here and there.

He may have ruffled some feathers along the way, but his contributions are quite valuable and I've appreciated them.

Perhaps he gets a bad rap because often times his posts are to correct erroneous information, making him appear to be argumentative. I'd still take good info over bad info though.

Same goes for wyo2ut, even though they were naughty a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## brookieguy1

We are all passionate about our sport and sometimes get a tad heated about certain subjects. Come'on everbody...open up your arms....GROUP HUG!


----------



## wyogoob




----------



## Catherder

Kumbayah, everyone, kumbayah.


----------



## 1BandMan

I'll cast my vote for "Otter in decline/or crashed."

I've caught a grundle of small fish in the 8-10" catagory and a few even smaller in quite a few trips over the past two and a half years....it made me wonder how I even hooked the little 6 and 7"er's. I've caught a few nice fish as well. I've also gone down and caught nothing. 

And indeed, when they drained Piute, they also drained down Otter the fall of 2009.....not to the point where it ends up looking like three different small ponds, but pretty close to it. Since then fishing has been fair to poor.

Ice fishing this year and last were terrible. The last two years soft water fishing overall for me and anyone I've heard talk about Otter Creek has been the same...dinks for the most part with a few nice fish mixed in.... or zero or few fish caught. The spring of 2009 was the last decent run for fisherman vs. fish in Otter.

The video posted by PBH was this year, but doesn't give you the big picture. They fished several hours and caught a few decent fish. This was before the water turned to chocolate syrup. This report and others like it are the ones that have been going around and around for the past two and a half years. 

I'd be suprised if reports of the future are any better. Otter and Piute are way slow and my bet is that it will remain this way for a few years to come. 

Talking about ratios, and pulling stuff out of the air, I'm going to say that if you fish Otter this year and a few years to come, your more than likely (8:1) to not catch a thing. Your 12:1 that you'll catch some small fish and maybe a few larger fish and your 20-30:1 or worse that you'll fill your cooler with a limit of decent or large fish.

There's been days that I've caught my limit and a few more on a couple of trips down to Otter, but most have been very small. I catch and release everything anyway, but It would have been pathetic if I brought home the limits I caught out of Otter for the past two years. The reason I've kept going back is for the few nice fish that are left. I've fished it twice this year, but it will be quite a while before I head back there as the better share of the fish I've caught isn't worth the time or gas to get there.

Looking forward to more reports, but I'm thinking that the fishing is and will be tough for those that fish Otter....... that is unless its just been consistently "fickle" for what seems like forever.


----------



## Tylert

I must be missing the "poor and terrible" times at otter. A couple weeks ago the fishing was well worth the trip. We fished for a few hours and pulled in some of the biggest fish I have caught in years. I guess when you look at the big picture everyone has a different perspective on what has happened to otter creek.


----------



## 1BandMan

Nice fish. 
My son caught one my first trip after ice off this year that was 25" long. We caught 11 others that day that all of them put together did't seem to equate to the big one all the rest about 6-10" long. 
Second trip was almost a skunk when I caught one headed around the knoll by the state park back to the truck that was right around 6" long when we decided to throw in the towel. It was hooked by a chunk of skin in its nose, or it would have just been a missed "bump." 
Both times, even though we didn't catch much when comparing our catch to others, we won the derby if there were one going on down there. Yes, the 25" fish was worth the first trip, but........
I know quite a few other folks that have went down and caught some rays but nothing else and a few others with mixed sucess but nothing to brag about for sure. Folks around here have had better success at the local community pond than Otter Creek with 2,3,4,and some 5lb'ers......but then again, I'm not much into community pond combat fishing.

I'm pretty sure fishing at Otter Creek overall sucks, but then again I could be wrong.
It could be worth it for some of the locals, but I'd be a little burnt to drive 160 or more miles one way to catch some sun rays and nothing else.


----------



## Kingfisher

interesting comments. never thought a report on otter creek would generate this kind of activity. however, given the worry and general sentiment over the condition of otter creek brings to memory a meeting i was at back in the early 2000's regarding the drought. among many other big shots, the head of dwr was there with fisheries folks, big game folks, etc. i commented to him that the drought must be devastating the fisheries across the state and his reaction different than what i had anticipated. it was - the fisheries will recover quickly - when the waters increase, we can restock and have the fisheries back in a few short years. we lose a few years, but we can recover quickly. the big game herds on the other hand - should we sustain large losses there - that will take years and years to recover.

so, maybe otter is on a bit of a downturn, maybe not - but if so, it can turn around quickly as well. no reason not to wet a line.


----------



## Flyfish4thrills

I have to chime in that fish size and catch rate really dropped off about 2 years ago at Otter Creek. It was depressing to lose Minersville, Paiute and Otter in one fell swoop. All that is left of productive, larger trout lakes in S. Utah is Panguitch and it is really a hit and miss lake. I also noticed the change in that fishery as well (for the worse) as it has received more pressure since the removal of the rainbow slot (now no big bows) coinciding with the time of the other big lakes going down the drain.
Paiute was an obvious water issue, but Minersville and Otter confused me as to the reason why. 
No, I have no scientific data to back my claims. I only have my experience fishing each of those waters 2 - 4 times through the ice each year and about triple that during the rest of the year. That is enough trips to see the average size and catch rate compared to past years. There is a big difference. I assume they will all come back to their original glory but I hate the wait and don't look forward to it inevitably happening again.


----------



## PBH

Flyfish4thrills said:


> I also noticed the change in that fishery [Panguitch] as well (for the worse) as it has received more pressure since the removal of the rainbow slot (now no big bows)


you need to contact the southern RAC members, as well as the Wildlife Board letting them know your concerns about rainbow trout population average size going down the tube since they were removed from the slot.

They were removed from the slot contrary to the suggestions of the DWR. Tom Hatch, former Wildlife Board member, was a strong advocate for removing the rainbows. He has since resigned. This issue is something that ANGLERS MUST push at the RACs and WB if they want it changed!

Fish like water.


----------



## Catherder

While we are on the subject of OC, how are the smallies doing there? I might have to pay them a visit when we go down to scout for the hunt.


----------



## PBH

how are the smallies? Well......if you listen to the majority on this site, the OC isn't worth spitting in!


But, if you ask me, I'd say that the smallies are doing good... (finding them in a reservoir at maximum water capacity, along with so much food that the fish can feed just by opening their mouths is going to be difficult).


Much if this thread deals with angler success, which is a completely different subject than fish population health.


----------



## Flyfish4thrills

PBH, I believe you when you say the numbers are increasing based on your family ties to the DWR alone. I haven't fished it for quite some time, waiting for the reports to improve. I really wish the Utah DWR would offer information similar to Colorado about the information the biologists collect. You can go online and see reports of the gill net/electroshocking surveys of about 100 of the most popular waters (that could handle it) with info offered such as the length ranges, max and mins, weights, percentages, see maps of the netting locations and results, see the results of the angler surveys of catches, etc. If we had that at our fingertips, it would be obvious to see what you already know and it would likely increase fishing at that reservoir. If Utah doesn't want to freely offer this info on the web, either due to a lack of time/money or due to perceived ethics, can we walk into a DWR office (such as in Cedar) and see this data without a Freedom of Information request? Here is a sample of what Colorado offers: site: http://wildlife.state.co.us/Fishing/Rep ... Summaries/ and a lake survey: http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyre ... ge2011.pdf and a stream survey: http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyre ... on2010.pdf
As for the RAC's, is it best to attend any monthly meeting, send an email, or what? Same question for the Wildlife board (is there even access beyond email?). I feel that adding all fish to the Panguitch slot is a hopeless cause. A part of me wishes it was under artificial fly and lure only regs as many people kill the fish by accident that are in the slot when bait fishing.
And I was just curious, but is your brother Stu? I know him from H.S.


----------



## PBH

flyfish -- yes, Stu is my brother.


slippery slope: asking for artificial flies and lures only. There is NOT justification for it. The reservoir was performing very well when the trout were only under a slot limit regulation. Don't get too greedy -- there is no reason to restrict bait. Some mortality is GOOD!

Information: you have access to all the information you want. You need to just pick up the phone and talk to a biologist. They'll give you whatever info you want. Further, their Facebook page gives some "OK" info on recent gillnetting. Further gillnetting data isn't available until after the biologists have a chance to actually put it all together, which typically happens during the winter months when they aren't working in the field.

As for the links you provided, I think you'll see Utah move towards a similar format in the future. But, just like the links you provided, the information is going to be from last years sampling, etc.

We always want information immediately. It takes time to compile it, and put it together. But, it is available if you simply ask. Pick up the phone, and ask to talk to a biologist.


----------



## hamernhonkers

PBH said:


> slippery slope: asking for artificial flies and lures only. There is NOT justification for it. The reservoir was performing very well when the trout were only under a slot limit regulation. Don't get too greedy -- there is no reason to restrict bait. Some mortality is GOOD!


Its only a slippery slope due to the fact that this lake is maintained for southern Nevada. If it was not for this it would be easy to get artificial regulations put on it. Heck a group of us tried for 5 years and the best we could get was the channel closed for one year to protect the large cutts from the bait fishermen  To bad we failed, it may have allowed for enough large bows and cutts to stay stay in the lake and then they could of stayed on top of the chubs....but once again we will never know.

You can also have mortality with artificial waters....you just need to allow possession of so many fish per fisherman and then only plant so many fish each year...It would not be hard to maintain a balance in there with artifical regulations.

The problem with a slot is hooking mortality with bait....I watched every Monday as the dwr boat ran around and cleaned up all the dead fish from the weekends. It made me sick to my stomach knowing that first they were only finding 10% of fish killed to deep hooking and then releasing and that with out the slot and better education of the public it mostly could of been avoided.


----------



## Catherder

hamernhonkers said:


> Its only a slippery slope due to the fact that this lake is maintained for southern Nevada.


From what I have heard it has been the locals that have demanded the rainbows be removed from the slot at Panguitch, just as it has been locals that pushed through the Kolob reg changes and have been bugging the DWR to drop the AFL regs at Minersville. I'm not necessarily saying I favor or oppose AFL at Panguitch, but I do get a kick out of how everything bad that happens in Dixie gets blamed on those "bleeping Nevadans". From what I've seen at Strawberry, it would suggest that a slot can be maintained without AFL and hooking mortality isn't as bad as some would suggest, but hey, perhaps Panguitch is different (more powerbait use?).



PBH said:


> how are the smallies? Well......if you listen to the majority on this site, the OC isn't worth spitting in!
> 
> But, if you ask me, I'd say that the smallies are doing good... (finding them in a reservoir at maximum water capacity, along with so much food that the fish can feed just by opening their mouths is going to be difficult).
> 
> Much if this thread deals with angler success, which is a completely different subject than fish population health.


Good to hear. FWIW, I was asking about population. Believe it or not, at the OC, if there is a decent population, I would bet I know where I could catch a few by the time I get down there. Now I'll just have to do that!


----------



## hamernhonkers

Cathader

I was one of those who pushed to remove the slot on bows. I see no reason or good in killing fish for no reason. If a fish is hooked deep why take the chance of killing it? If people want to C&R they can fish artificial. 

Now as it being managed for southern nevada....who makes all the money at the lake and has a lot of influence on regs....the local business who cater to southern nevada. So it is managed for southern nevada. Its just the way it is. 

I personally would love to trade it for both minersville and kolob. They are great put and take waters. Panguich with its constant pool level and abundance of feed when there are no chubs is capable of being one of top large fish producing lakes in the nation. I would take that any day of the week over what it is managed for now.


----------



## Catherder

HnH, you make some interesting points. A couple comments on them.

[/Quote="hamernhonkers"]I personally would love to trade it for both minersville and kolob. They are great put and take waters. Panguich with its constant pool level and abundance of feed when there are no chubs is capable of being one of top large fish producing lakes in the nation.[/quote]

While I like Kolob as it is/was and Minersville has its moments, you may be right that Panguitch would be better. The water situation at Minersville just seems so frustrating. I realize that they have a C pool there but that doesn't seem to alleviate the inconsistency. Panguitch has a much better water situation and you are right that the potential is there for good growth if the chubs are controlled.

Now, what would happen if your proposal was being seriously considered by the DWR/wildlife board? IMO, Tom Hatch would be begging the guvnah for his WB seat back and the outcry in opposition to Panguitch being AFL would be deafening by the local communities. Never mind that some of the tourist oriented businesses would prosper more from the Out-of-state tourism a premier fishery would bring. Locals have complained and fought against Minersville's regs, Kolob's regs and restrictions at Panguitch. They simply do not like the DWR telling them that they can't use their beloved powerbait and worms anymore at their favorite pond or not keep certain fish.

Now, back to the "bleeping Nevadans". They will come regardless of the regs. They came to AFL Kolob. They come to the current Panguitch. They come to places with standard regs. They even come to put and take ponds like Pine Valley res. How do I know this? I was raised and educated in Utah, but lived for a decade in the Las Vegas area before moving back to Utah a few years ago. When you want to get out of the heat and catch something besides striped bass and catfish, you go to Utah. And you are cool with whatever the regs may be. Nevadans may be a good customer to Dixie's businesses, but they do not drive the regulations much , if at all, because they will come regardless of what regs are decided upon. IMO, the (vocal) locals are the main ones driving any reg changes and management decisions.


----------



## hamernhonkers

Catherder,

First sorry about typing your user name wrong in the last post. Sitting in a doctors office with one good arm and doped up makes it hard to type  

First back when we were trying hard to get the regs changed we had a different local and native of the area on our side that was on the RAC. He like us, was from a homesteading family in the area and fellow artificial fisherman. Back then the numbers of artificial fisherman were growing but they were nothing like the numbers we have today. I at times hate having so much competition from other fly fisherman at times but also realize the more of us there are the better the chances we might get a strong foot hold to make a change.

There are still a lot of vocal locals around the area but many of the natives with the most influence are starting to come around. Look at all the fly shops popping up in the area now day's. We are slowing turning many of them onto the possible benefits of turning the lake into a artificial water.

Just curious but were you at any of the meetings that were held at the lake and in panguich for public input into regulations for the lake? I was able to attend the one at the lake and of course the concern there was tourism from southern Nevada and its affect on business at the lake. They are scared of change and are unwilling to look at what the possibilities could be at turning this lake into a world re noun large fish lake. They just can't see that far out  Its to bad I see no reason why panguich could not be as well known as Henry’s lake.....it is very capable of similar sized fish.....well at least for those who know how to catch them  

I am also down here in southern Nevada and have been for over a year now. I am starting to believe like you that these people could care less what the regs are as long as they can get out of this god awe full heat each summer. I would almost guarantee boat rentals would remain the same but tackle sales for the local businesses would go up as these folks would have to learn to troll or fly fish. Then if you stated getting people from other states here because of the large fish....heck might be to good of a thing...I am starting to think it is fine the way it is :O•-: 

I can tell you this much the fight will be coming again. I am getting a lot of support from both sides of the mountain on AFL regs and its a lot more then we ever got the last time we tried. Not sure where this one will take us but it will be a fun ride again and in the mean time the fishing at the lake is the best it has been in 10 years so we can for sure enjoy it while its good.


----------



## PBH

UDWR said:


> Otter Creek Reservoir Gillnet Survey--We found lots of fat, healthy rainbow trout. The average size fish run 14-16 inches and 1.5-2 lbs. We also found good numbers of larger fish at 18-21 inches and reaching 4 lbs. The trout are in great condition and anglers will be very pleased with the quality of fish available this year. Trout are starting to move in shallow now--shore fisherman should target gravel shorelines for spawning fish and points for active feeders. The reservoir is fairly murky on the south end due to runoff coming in from the East Fork Sevier canal. Trollers are having best success in the clearer water on the north end of the lake. Look for fair to good fishing from shore and boat through April.


The fish are there. The OC is in good shape. In fact, come this fall -- considering the poor angling success so far this spring -- there should be some serious fatties in there!

Panguitch -- serioulsy, push for AFL only and I guarantee you won't get anything changed. There is no reason for AFL. It has already been proven that including the rainbows in the slot works, and can sustain a high-level fishery while still allowing some harvest and bait. You guys worry about releasing deeply hooked fish -- why? If you believe in AFL, then why are you hooking fish deeply?

DWR boat driving around collecting all the dead fish??? That sounds kind of like the airplane that drops flour-sack bombs to scare the deer herds the day before the hunt starts!! The DWR does NOT go out and collect dead fish! If mortality from bait anglers was an issue, it would be stopped immediately. But, it's not an issue.

....seriously? A DWR boat collecting fish carcasses? Give me a break...


----------



## hamernhonkers

PBH said:


> Panguitch -- serioulsy, push for AFL only and I guarantee you won't get anything changed. There is no reason for AFL. It has already been proven that including the rainbows in the slot works, and can sustain a high-level fishery while still allowing some harvest and bait. You guys worry about releasing deeply hooked fish -- why? If you believe in AFL, then why are you hooking fish deeply?
> 
> DWR boat driving around collecting all the dead fish??? That sounds kind of like the airplane that drops flour-sack bombs to scare the deer herds the day before the hunt starts!! The DWR does NOT go out and collect dead fish! If mortality from bait anglers was an issue, it would be stopped immediately. But, it's not an issue.
> 
> ....seriously? A DWR boat collecting fish carcasses? Give me a break...


PBH,

Do you actually go out and fish and then if you do......do you pay attention to what is happening around you???

Two years ago this summer at least 4 or 5 times on either a Monday or a Tuesday I watched a DWR employee going around the lake in a boat with a large net and a large garbage can. He was scooping up the dead fish from the weekend crowds. On one occasion later in the summer I was fishing off the shore by the south boat ramp and was able to have about a hour conversation him when he came in. Would you like to guess what we talked about and what the large garbage can was full of??? And lets think what happened to the regs the very next year??? How do I know this fellow was a dwr employee????? Could it have been the truck with Division or Wild Life resources emblem on it? The shirt with the patch that said Utah DWR on it? The fact that he said he worked for the DWR? I don't know it really dose sound like a big old conspiracy now I think about it o-||

As to your question *



If you believe in AFL, then why are you hooking fish deeply?

Click to expand...

* I am not the one hooking fish deeply and then throwing them back. I only fly fish and on the rare occasion (a few times a year) when I do hook a fish deep it dose not go back into the water its goes to a friend who like to eat fish.

Now I toss my question back to you that I asked at the beginning of this reply. If you do actually get out and fish and pay attention to what is happening then you like I see every day on that lake where bait fishermen who want to play C&R land fish on their big old treble hooks loaded with power bait then rip the hook out and throw them back only to have the fish surface a few minutes later some 30, 50 or a 100 yards away dieing from damage done to the gills or internally from being hooked deep and then released.

I can see in your perception there is no need for AFL but with my perception and observations after spending around 1500 fishing day's on the lake in my life time, I can see many opportunities and advantages for AFL. We have more then enough put and take lakes in this state. What we don't have is a fishery truly capable of and managed for huge fish. I know a 18 or 20" fish to many is a trophy and in that regard that is awesome for them. I wonder how they would fill if they were catching 25 to 30" fish??? It was a good try with Kolob and Miversville but we all know there are limitations with both those waters. Kolob for its size and feed amounts, and Miversville with its low water problems. Panguich can and dose fit the bill for a lake that has what it takes to grow large fish and large numbers of them with its good water levels year round and abundance of feed. But until some one tries to get the regs changed and give it a try we will never know what the lake is truly capable of now will we.

One other question? Why do you keep leaning towards that if the lake was turned to artificial you can't have any take??? You would obviously need to control the amount of take or mortality but like you say a little mortality is a good thing for waters. I am all for people keeping a couple of fish to eat. What I am against is wanton waste that occurs from hooking mortality of fish caught on bait. The studies have shown time and time again the with bait fishing you get a high hooking mortality. Now this would not be a problem if people would just catch their limit and stop fishing&#8230;&#8230;.but of course that's now how it is working. People some how have gotten the idea that it is perfectly fine to play C&R with bait. Not that the studies have shown that you face a 30 to as high as 65% mortality rate on fish caught on bait. But heck they are having fun so why not let them.


----------



## PBH

hamernhonkers said:


> PBH,
> 
> Do you actually go out and fish and then if you do......do you pay attention to what is happening around you???


Nope. I never get out. I just sit behind a keyboard and stir the pot.



hamernhonkers said:


> ... On one occasion later in the summer I was fishing off the shore by the south boat ramp and was able to have about a hour conversation him when he came in. Would you like to guess what we talked about and what the large garbage can was full of???


No. I'd rather want to know his name. Richard? Mike O.? Mike H.?
Sadly, i don't believe you. I know that they don't go collect dead fish after the crowds release deep hooked fish. Maybe you misunderstood what the guy was doing, or who he worked for. I think you should call the southern region office and ask them if they do this. I know they don't.



hammerhonker said:


> I only fly fish *and on the rare occasio*n (a few times a year) when I do hook a fish deep it dose not go back into the water its goes to a friend who like to eat fish.





hamernhonkers said:


> One other question? Why do you keep leaning towards that if the lake was turned to artificial you can't have any take???


You already answered this question. It's not that you CAN'T have any take. It's that anglers, like youreself, WON'T.

We know this. AFL waters have extremely LOW harvest rates even when liberal harvest is allowed. Why? Demographics. The people that fish AFL waters simply don't harvest fish. So, using AFL on waters that need mortality are useless. Think Provo River.

What happened at Panguitch Lake when rainbows were inside the slot? The lake was full of 20" trout. This was under regulations that allowed for bait. We already know it works. We also know that, even with bait regulations and liberal harvest rates, Panguitch has the potential to grow "trophy" trout -- 30" trout.

AFL is not necessary at Panguitch. Putting rainbows in the slot is.

Keep in mind -- a kept fish dies 100% of the time. A fish that is let go, even when deeply hooked and bleeding from the gills has a better chance of survival if returned to the water. Obvioulsy, it isn't going to be 100% survival rate -- but .05% survival is better than 0%.


----------



## hamernhonkers

> PBH
> 
> Nope. I never get out. I just sit behind a keyboard and stir the pot.


Had to ask! Sometimes it just seems like that is what you like to do? But that is only my perception 



> No. I'd rather want to know his name. Richard? Mike O.? Mike H.?
> Sadly, i don't believe you. I know that they don't go collect dead fish after the crowds release deep hooked fish. Maybe you misunderstood what the guy was doing, or who he worked for. I think you should call the southern region office and ask them if they do this. I know they don't.


It was two years ago. I really don't recall his name. I also seen him a couple of times that summer driving around and doing angler survey's. He was a kid in his mid to late 20's blond hair about 6' and maybe 200lbs? Sound familiar? My memory may be the second shortest thing on me but I do know what he was doing and the conversation we had. I really don't need to call the office to verify what we talked about but thanks for the idea 



> hammerhonker said:
> 
> 
> 
> I only fly fish *and on the rare occasio*n (a few times a year) *when I do hook a fish deep it dose not go back into the water its goes to a friend who like to eat fish*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hamernhonkers said:
> 
> 
> 
> One other question? Why do you keep leaning towards that if the lake was turned to artificial you can't have any take???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You already answered this question. It's not that you CAN'T have any take. It's that anglers, like youreself, WON'T.
Click to expand...

Read that again I only stated that if I deep hooked a fish then I keep it. I never said anything about not keeping fish aside from that did I? I tend to take about 20 to 40 fish a year out of the lake. Even though I have no taste for fish I do have a couple of old friends who like to eat them and so every other trip I keep a couple and take them to them 



> PBH
> We know this. AFL waters have extremely LOW harvest rates even when liberal harvest is allowed. Why? Demographics. The people that fish AFL waters simply don't harvest fish. So, using AFL on waters that need mortality are useless. Think Provo River.


I agree the middle Provo is a joke. It dose need some harvest. It is a case of the no harvest taken to the extreme and those who believe in absolutely no harvest have ruined a good fishery.



> PBH
> What happened at Panguitch Lake when rainbows were inside the slot? The lake was full of 20" trout. This was under regulations that allowed for bait. We already know it works. We also know that, even with bait regulations and liberal harvest rates, Panguitch has the potential to grow "trophy" trout -- 30" trout.


The lake also was seeing the lowest numbers of fishermen it had in years due to the restrictions, small fish from just being planted, coupled with lots of fish and tons of food the fish were growing fast. All the slot did was needless kill fish by those who did practice C&R with bait.

3 summers ago...4th of July weekend. Boats out the butt on the lake that weekend. Lots of fish being caught in the slot with bait and then released. I was there 4 day's in a row and on the 6th when the pressure left I drove across the shallows of the wast end with good water visibility and every 15 or 20 yards there was a dead fish laying on the bottom. Yeah the slot coupled with C&R by the bait crowd was really doing a great job.



> PBH AFL is not necessary at Panguitch. Putting rainbows in the slot is.


All the slot gets you is a lot of dead fish for no reason if used in conjunction with bait!



> PBH
> Keep in mind -- a kept fish dies 100% of the time. A fish that is let go, even when deeply hooked and bleeding from the gills has a better chance of survival if returned to the water. Obvioulsy, it isn't going to be 100% survival rate -- but .05% survival is better than 0%.


What is the point in allowing the needles waste of fish that can be keep and used??? If people really want to practice C&R artificial is just not that hard and hooking mortality drops to 1 to 3% depending on conditions and gear. Just don't see the need for a slot when there are better options out there.


----------



## PBH

hamernhonkers said:


> ...It was two years ago. I really don't recall his name. I also seen him a couple of times that summer driving around and doing angler survey's. ...


So, he was a seasonal doing angler surveys. Thanks. That answers that question.

Is there a way to tell by looking at a dead fish by which method the fish may have previously been caught using? I understand that if there is a line hanging out its mouth with a trebble hook -- but what if there isn't a line hanging out its mouth? How do you know by what method it was caught?



hamernhonkers said:


> The lake also was seeing the lowest numbers of fishermen it had in years due to the restrictions, ...
> 
> 3 summers ago...4th of July weekend. Boats out the butt on the lake that weekend.


well....which is it? Low numbers, or boats out the butt? It can't be both. FWIW, since the last treatment at Panguitch, angler use has been extremely high.



hamernhonkers said:


> All the slot gets you is a lot of dead fish for no reason if used in conjunction with bait!


Are you suggesting that we remove the slot?



hamernhonkers said:


> What is the point in allowing the needles waste of fish that can be keep and used??? If people really want to practice C&R artificial is just not that hard and hooking mortality drops to 1 to 3% depending on conditions and gear. Just don't see the need for a slot when there are better options out there.


You're sounding like you'd rather see the lake open to statewide general regs with all this "needles waste of fish than can be keep and used" talk.

Who catches more fish? The bait angler, or the fly angler?

many fly fishermen claim to catch 10x the fish that bait anglers catch. If a fly angler catches 50 fish/day with mortality rate of 10%, then 5 fish die.
Let's credit a bait angler with catching 10 fish with a mortality rate of 50% (50% is actually quite high. Numerous reports show this to be closer to 35%). So, they also killed 5 fish. What's the difference??? Both sets of anglers are killing about the same number of fish.


----------



## hamernhonkers

> PBH So, he was a seasonal doing angler surveys. Thanks. That answers that question.


Regardless of weather or not he was seasonal he still was out in a DWR boat and was cleaning up dead fish floating around the lake!



> PBH Is there a way to tell by looking at a dead fish by which method the fish may have previously been caught using? I understand that if there is a line hanging out its mouth with a trebble hook -- but what if there isn't a line hanging out its mouth? How do you know by what method it was caught?


Never stated that he was trying to tell how they had been killed......Maybe he was only measuring them to see how many fell inside the slot????



> PBH
> well....which is it? Low numbers, or boats out the butt? It can't be both. FWIW, since the last treatment at Panguitch, angler use has been extremely high.


Every 4th weekend there are boats out the butt on the lake...If you get out as much as you say then you know this also. As for the rest of the year the numbers were similar to the last two years before the treatment and the year of the treatment the use was the lowest since the last time the lake was treated. The first two years after the treatment the lake use was way below normal and only started to pick back to close to normal levals the last couple of years.



> PBH Are you suggesting that we remove the slot?


As I stated in an earlier post I pushed for the slot removal on the bows. Like I said what's the point in killing fish for no cause with high mortality by practicing C&R with bait????



> PBH
> Who catches more fish? The bait angler, or the fly angler?
> 
> many fly fishermen claim to catch 10x the fish that bait anglers catch. If a fly angler catches 50 fish/day with mortality rate of 10%, then 5 fish die.
> Let's credit a bait angler with catching 10 fish with a mortality rate of 50% (50% is actually quite high. Numerous reports show this to be closer to 35%). So, they also killed 5 fish. What's the difference??? Both sets of anglers are killing about the same number of fish.


Using your math if the survial rates were correct which they are not....if the use ratio was 1 to 1 bait fishermen to fly fishermen then you would have an argument. Reality......Panguich sees a use of bait fishermen to artificial of about 20 to 1 or higher....so depending on the knowledge and skill of the different fishermen we should be safe in assuming that they catch about the same number of fish....fair? Well if that's the case then 20 bait fishermen catching 10 fish a piece a day with a hooking mortality of 35% would equal 70 dead fish compared to the .1 percent of the one fly fishermen who via the studies has a hooking mortality rate of 1%.....Looks like practicing C&R with bait really makes a lot of since don't it :roll:


----------



## PBH

hamernhonkers said:


> As I stated in an earlier post I pushed for the slot removal on the bows. Like I said what's the point in killing fish for no cause with high mortality by practicing C&R with bait????


wait. According to gill net surveys, average size rainbow trout has DECLINED since the rainbows were removed from the slot. So the point is that with the rainbows IN the slot you are PROTECTING more rainbows from mortality. You've got it backwards. If rainbows are OUT of the slot, more rainbows die for no cause (freezer burn, garden compost, giving to good friends because you don't know what to do with the stringer full of rainbows you kept...). Like I said earlier, more fish survive if you let them go. Regardless of angling method, they have a better chance of surviving if you let them go. Keep them, and I promise you they will die.



hamernhonkers said:


> Panguich sees a use of bait fishermen to artificial of about 20 to 1 or higher....


I imagine you remembered that ratio from your discussion with the summer seasonal doing the "dead fish from bait fishermen" clean up program? I have to wonder if the DWR sends those dead fish over to the Forest Service campgrounds to bait in the bears for the campers to see?

1% mortality? Maybe with barbless flies only. Is that your next proposal? Single barbless artificial flies only? Good luck. I'm done.


----------



## hamernhonkers

Missed this one 



PBH said:


> You're sounding like you'd rather see the lake open to statewide general regs with all this "needles waste of fish than can be keep and used" talk.


General Regs would work if the general public was educated about hooking mortality with bait and were not out trying to practice C&R. Say a guy goes out bait fishing and catches and releases 100 fish in a day. You then end up with 35 fish killed using the low end of the studies on hooking mortality. Then you apply the same numbers to a fly fisherman who catches 100 fish and only according to the studies will average one dead fish. The hardware fisherman will see about 3% or 3 dead fish from hooking mortality. So my point is if bait dunkers...chuckers or what ever else they are called would learn these facts and then only keep what they catch that is hooked deep (not in the lip and handled properly) limit general regs would work. It would be very easy for the dwr to manage put and take from waters give they could clearly know how many fish were being taken due to angling.

I am not for one minute against bait fishing or take of fish.....but if people really want to do what is best for the resource and still catch lots of fish then they need to learn how to handle fish, hooking mortality and how to avoid it and that the best thing to do if you are out looking to C&R large numbers of fish..... Bait fishing and C&R just don't work very well. A lot of fish end up dieing and going to waste for no reason.


----------



## hamernhonkers

> PBH
> wait. According to gill net surveys, average size rainbow trout has DECLINED since the rainbows were removed from the slot. So the point is that with the rainbows IN the slot you are PROTECTING more rainbows from mortality. You've got it backwards. If rainbows are OUT of the slot, more rainbows die for no cause (freezer burn, garden compost, giving to good friends because you don't know what to do with the stringer full of rainbows you kept...). Like I said earlier, more fish survive if you let them go. Regardless of angling method, they have a better chance of surviving if you let them go. Keep them, and I promise you they will die.


Like was said in an early post the pressure the last two years has increased back to near normal levels. The average size of the fish my be declining a bit but at least they are not going to waste because of the slot. Now if people are wasting them due to keeping them then AFL to eliminate that type of fisherman is the best answer then isn't it???



> PBH
> I imagine you remembered that ratio from your discussion with the summer seasonal doing the "dead fish from bait fishermen" clean up program? I have to wonder if the DWR sends those dead fish over to the Forest Service campgrounds to bait in the bears for the campers to see?
> 
> 1% mortality? Maybe with barbless flies only. Is that your next proposal? Single barb less artificial flies only? Good luck. I'm done.


Never said that was part of the conversation. In fact I never said what we talked about in our conversation. He did tell me where the fish ended up along with some other stuff but it is irrelevant to our dialog. This all boils down to perceptions.....yours and mine....who is right who is wrong makes no difference.....its the one who gets out and makes the changes happen and gets others on boad with his perception of what is happening.

I seen no need for single barb less hooks or for that fact not allowing bait. In the end I would just love to see better education of the public as to what happens to a resource when cretin practices are applied. That's all.


----------



## hamernhonkers

While were at it with this dialog here is one study and its finding with hooking mortality.....C&R with bait is really a good idea :roll:

http://www.flyflinger.com/wpblog/?p=360

Of course there are many studies out there and the percentages change with conditions, samples, techniques, species etc.

Bottom line still is a slot limit with bait just kills a lot of fish for no reason :!:

Now what to do with the people who catch the fish take them and then just waste them????

I don't have the answer to that one


----------



## Grandpa D

My turn to say something.
I was disappointed when the State changed the rules to allow fishing to continue, after a limit is in your possession.
I agree that when an angler is fishing with bait, the mortality of the fish that are returned is not good.
The best answer would be to require an angler to use artificial only, after keeping a limit.
The State doesn't like this answer though. I know that it would be hard to enforce.
It would require a lot of education and some very unhappy anglers that would receive citations for violations but it could be done.

Strawberry Reservoir is another place that needs this change.
I get sick when I fish there and see the people gut hook Cutthroat trout and then grumble at the law that requires them to throw it back, knowing that it is going to die.
Why don't these folks get it, and switch to artificial lures?
Because they don't have to!
If it was a law, most anglers would do it.
Others would just move on and fish at other places, that have open regs.

Slot limits need to include artificial lures only, after possessing a limit of trout.
Simple concept.


----------



## richard rouleau

that okay dwr just planted wiper in otter creek so next 2 year all the young trout will not live long ,they will be eating by wiper


----------



## dixonha

Last night I couldn't sleep. Then I remembered this thread. Printed it out. Read it. Sleeplessness cured. Yawn. (PBH is right y'all. It's true. Look it up.)


----------



## PBH

hammer -- you're off the hook. someone else said something stupid, so I'll bite and play him for a while 



richard rouleau said:


> that okay dwr just planted wiper in otter creek so next 2 year all the young trout will not live long ,they will be eating by wiper


young trout? What young trout? You mean the stocked trout? Who cares. They're stocked. If numbers decrease due to predation by wipers, then stock a handful more.

the benefits (chub predation/control) far outweigh any negatives (some trout predation) of stocking wiper in Otter Creek. In fact, if Newcastle is any indication, the trout in Otter Creek will actually benefit from having wipers in there. If you keep the chub population down, then the trout population will be in much better shape.


----------



## Catherder

I guess I'll jump back into this one. A couple of points.



Grandpa D said:


> The best answer would be to require an angler to use artificial only, after keeping a limit.
> The State doesn't like this answer though.


I have no problem with this. The state, however, seems to want to continue to simplify regulations. That would complicate things (slightly). Go to the open house and ask who it is that is pushing for all the rules simplification?



Grandpa D said:


> Strawberry Reservoir is another place that needs this change.
> I get sick when I fish there and see the people gut hook Cutthroat trout and then grumble at the law that requires them to throw it back, knowing that it is going to die.


Here is where I respectfully disagree. The slot at the Berry has shown to be a huge success and it has been done with bait allowed. Sure there are still some dimwits that kill more slotters than they should, but the DWR has said that the mortality has been less than they originally predicted. Why might that be? Most importantly IMO, is word got out that you can catch more nice cutts with tipped jigs, Lucky crafts, and other lures or tipped lures, than with powerbait or some other processed bait. Yes, occasionally a cutt will suck one of these down, but it just doesn't happen all that much, especially if you are paying attention as you should. At least for me, deep hooked fish while ice fishing virtually never occurs, and I almost always tip my jigs with something. The proof that the cutts are going back alive is in the fish themselves. When you fish the Berry, count the scars on a good upper slot cutt. You will see that most of them have been caught several times, many have 4-6 scars if you look closely. Maybe the powerbait crowd mostly catches bows, in which case they are harvested and it is no big deal.

Now back to Panguitch. (Wasn't this thread originally about the OC?) Sadly, since I moved back up North, I haven't hit Panguitch, so I don't have any recent first hand experience, but I could foresee a scenario where most of the anglers are tossing powerglop and the mortality is much higher than up at the Berry. If that were the case, the HnH's paln may be preferable. Conversely, It may be that panguitch is just like the Berry and PBH nailed it. Hopefully, I'll be able to get down there this fall and do some first hand "investigation" (read, fish it hard --\O )


----------



## hamernhonkers

Catherder said:


> Now back to Panguitch. (Wasn't this thread originally about the OC?) Sadly, since I moved back up North, I haven't hit Panguitch, so I don't have any recent first hand experience, but I could foresee a scenario where most of the anglers are tossing powerglop and the mortality is much higher than up at the Berry. If that were the case, the HnH's paln may be preferable. Conversely, It may be that panguitch is just like the Berry and PBH nailed it. Hopefully, I'll be able to get down there this fall and do some first hand "investigation" (read, fish it hard --\O )


You should come down and hit it. It is going to be a great year for large fish for those who know how and when to find them. I think you'll find and I highly doubt PBH will disagree with me on this but most of what is getting chucked at the fish is power bait followed by worms and mellows. Great combos for sitting back, sipping a beer and letting a fish taker deep


----------



## neverdrawn

I agree the wipers in Newcastle have been of benefit for the trout. The smallmouth, maybe not so much. I think the wipers actually feed on the smaller smallmouth that are spawned in the lake, but not necessarily a bad thing. The smallies that are left don't have to compete quite as much and although in my observance the numbers of smallmouth has decreased the average size has increased. And when it comes to a choice between catching a wiper versus a trout on the fly rod.... I'll take the wiper every time! The golden shiners are definitely in decline as well, thus improving the trout due to less competition with a fish that is much hardier that itself.


----------



## 1BandMan

PBH said:


> UDWR said:
> 
> 
> 
> Otter Creek Reservoir Gillnet Survey--We found lots of fat, healthy rainbow trout. The average size fish run 14-16 inches and 1.5-2 lbs. We also found good numbers of larger fish at 18-21 inches and reaching 4 lbs. The trout are in great condition and anglers will be very pleased with the quality of fish available this year. Trout are starting to move in shallow now--shore fisherman should target gravel shorelines for spawning fish and points for active feeders. The reservoir is fairly murky on the south end due to runoff coming in from the East Fork Sevier canal. Trollers are having best success in the clearer water on the north end of the lake. Look for fair to good fishing from shore and boat through April.
> 
> 
> 
> The fish are there. The OC is in good shape. In fact, come this fall -- considering the poor angling success so far this spring -- there should be some serious fatties in there!
> 
> Panguitch -- serioulsy, push for AFL only and I guarantee you won't get anything changed. There is no reason for AFL. It has already been proven that including the rainbows in the slot works, and can sustain a high-level fishery while still allowing some harvest and bait. You guys worry about releasing deeply hooked fish -- why? If you believe in AFL, then why are you hooking fish deeply?
> 
> DWR boat driving around collecting all the dead fish??? That sounds kind of like the airplane that drops flour-sack bombs to scare the deer herds the day before the hunt starts!! The DWR does NOT go out and collect dead fish! If mortality from bait anglers was an issue, it would be stopped immediately. But, it's not an issue.
> 
> ....seriously? A DWR boat collecting fish carcasses? Give me a break...
Click to expand...

Why is the DWR putting wiper in a pond (the OC) that has a grundle of big nice monsterous healthy fish??? Just a precautionary approach?????


----------



## PBH

1BandMan said:


> Why is the DWR putting wiper in a pond (the OC) that has a grundle of big nice monsterous healthy fish??? Just a precautionary approach?????


Yes. Historically, chubs have been a problem in Otter Creek. There is no reason to believe that chubs won't continue to a be problem in Otter Creek. Wipers should help keep chub numbers in check, and keep the trout population in better condition for a longer period of time.

The nice thing with wipers is that they are sterile. If they begin to have negative impacts, you simply stop stocking them and they disappear.

Newcastle: Wipers and smallmouth bass occupy different niches. Smallies prefer cover -- rocky shorelines, etc. Wipers are more of an open-water schooling fish. This is important. The primary food source for wiper is going to be other open-water fish, like golden shiners and maybe even rainbow trout. The primary food source for smallmouth bass is crawfish. The key element is the golden shiners. Reduce the number of shiners, everything else gets better. Control numbers of wipers via stocking, and you keep the shiners at the proper level to sustain the wipers, increase the trout conditions, and increase smallmouth bass quality. Prior to wipers in Newcastle, you couldn't hardly catch a smallmouth bass, and the trout were pathetic.

Panguitch -- I honestly believe that if the DWR thougth that mortality from bait hooked fish were a problem, then they'd be out trying to make a change. However, they currently aren't, which tells me that bait hooking mortality isn't a big enough problem to worry about. On the other hand, we have numbers that show the rainbow trout are getting smaller, and smaller at Panguitch. This is a direct result of the rainbow trout NOT being included in the slot. So, you tell me, what is the solution to increasing the average size rainbow trout at Panguitch? Yep. You got it: put them back in the slot.


----------



## brookieguy1

Yup. Put those 'bows back in the slot, just like our ole 'buddy Minivan says. He was right.


----------



## Catherder

brookieguy1 said:


> Yup. Put those 'bows back in the slot, just like our ole 'buddy Minivan says. He was right.


Hmmm, This thread has gone from the OC to Panguitch, to Strawberry to Newcastle and back to Panguitch. We have covered AFL, wipers, baitchuckers, smallies, RACs, slot limits, love and forgiveness, sucky fishermen, and seasonal workers. We have discussed characters like Tom Hatch, "Bleeping Nevadans", "the vocal locals" and now the renowned Minivan. (did I miss anything?)

Yep, this is another good UWN thread. 

Wasn't someone complaining that it was dull around here recently? -Ov-


----------



## wyoming2utah

hamernhonkers said:


> Its to bad I see no reason why panguich could not be as well known as Henry's lake.....it is very capable of similar sized fish.....well at least for those who know how to catch them


I know I am late to the debate, but I can't pass this up...

...I am trying to understand your line of thinking, hamernhonkers. You feel like the slot is useless if bait is allowed because fish die due to hooking mortality. Why is it any different at Henry's Lake? Doesn't Henry's Lake allow bait fishing and still grow monster fish? What about somewhere like the South Fork up that way too? Doesn't sections of the South Fork also allow bait fishing and have a slot limit? Don't other Southern Idaho reservoirs that are popular to AFL fishermen also have slot limits but still allow bait? What is the difference between these lakes/fisheries and Panguitch....what is the difference between Strawberry's slot limit and bait allowance and Panguitch?

It just seems to me that we have a lot of examples of places where slot limits are used and bait is allowed that really are working well.


----------



## hamernhonkers

wyoming2utah said:


> hamernhonkers said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's too bad I see no reason why panguich could not be as well known as Henry's lake.....it is very capable of similar sized fish.....well at least for those who know how to catch them
> 
> 
> 
> I know I am late to the debate, but I can't pass this up...
> 
> ...I am trying to understand your line of thinking, hamernhonkers. You feel like the slot is useless if bait is allowed because fish die due to hooking mortality. Why is it any different at Henry's Lake? Doesn't Henry's Lake allow bait fishing and still grow monster fish? What about somewhere like the South Fork up that way too? Doesn't sections of the South Fork also allow bait fishing and have a slot limit? Don't other Southern Idaho reservoirs that are popular to AFL fishermen also have slot limits but still allow bait? What is the difference between these lakes/fisheries and Panguitch....what is the difference between Strawberry's slot limit and bait allowance and Panguitch?
> 
> It just seems to me that we have a lot of examples of places where slot limits are used and bait is allowed that really are working well.
Click to expand...

Yes Henery's lake dose allow bait...Now what people seem to forget and do not factor in is that it is also protected from fishermen for 5 months of the year during the easiest time of the year to catch fish......just like Panguich use to be.....anyone here remember that far back??? Panguich use to be closed each year from Jan 1 to May 31 from fishermen. It also use to constantly produce large fish just like Henery's dose now....no slot...bait allowed.....and just as much fishing pressure.....another big difference from then to now......fishermen didn't practice C&R with bait like they do now....they keep what they caught for the most part.

2011 Regs for Henry's lake

Henrys Lake
Section: Those portions of the lake within the posted
boundaries of Staley Springs and within 100 yards of
Hatchery Creek
• Closed to fishing
Remainder of Henrys Lake
• January 2 through Friday before Memorial Day
weekend - Closed to fishing
• Saturday of Memorial Day weekend through
January 1 - trout limit is 2, brook trout must be
counted in the trout limit
• Fishing may not continue after 2 trout have been
reduced to possession

Difference Henry's has a 2 fish limit and protected for 5 months of the year and no slot.....What do you think the bait dunker numbers are compared to Artificial there and then compared to Panguich.....I would say Panguich has a lot more bait tossed in it with a higher fish limit.....Also we all know that cutbows are more aggressive and grow quicker than the cutts and bows in Panguich.

As far as the other waters in Idaho I have not fished them and don't know anything about them. Strawberry......I am not a bait dunker but I do know that in talking to the bait fishermen at Panguich they tend to rarely catch cutts on Powerbait but kill the bows on it.

wyoming I do know this from watching over the years....Since the fishing season was removed from Panguich the fish have taken a beating.....We all have seen the wonderful weekends when there are 600 people out on the ice.....Mind sets have changed in regards to the practices with bait fishermen....they use to not practice C&R to the extent like they do now...every study I have ever seen shows fish will die if hooked deep with bait....if you put a slot on the fish and allow bait lots of fish that are hooked deep and will die will have to be tossed back.....with better education and getting people to keep deep hooked fish the fishery will be better off over all.


----------



## 1BandMan

I believe that there is some flawed thinking going on. There are a fair percentage of people who with or without a slot, will kill fish and throw them back into the lake and not give it a second thought. 
The only difference that I could imagine is that a slot limit may *somewhat* discourage those who do not properly practice catch and release when they are planning on harvesting a limit of fish, whatever that is. With some people, if they are catching fish, will throw back fish...even ones off their stringers dead if they catch another that fits in their limit better.


----------



## hamernhonkers

I think we have covered about all the perceptions here with the posting so far. Let’s get back to facts.

Fact-Hooking mortality with bait on trout ranges between 35% and as high as 73% according to the studies.

Fact- Hooking mortality with Flies ranges 1 to 3%

Fact – Hooking mortality with other artificial methods ranges 3 to 7%

These are facts! No matter what you believe this is what the studies have proven!

100 people bait fish Panguich or any other water and average 10 fish a piece for the day practicing C&R…This using the lowest mortality study equals 1000 fish caught and 350 will die at minimum!

100 people fish same water, use flies and average same number of fish caught and released....1000 fish caught and using the high end on the mortality studies this equals 30 fish dead.

100 people fish same water and use other artificial methods catching and releasing the same number of fish…..1000 fish caught and using the high end of the studies this equals 70 fish dead.

Now please explain to me why…..using the facts!…..Practicing C&R with bait is a justifiable way to fish???

Up until now I can only guess people are trying to run from the facts as to try and keep a clean conscious or have no understand of the needles waste of fish they are the cause of. 
Slot or no slot people need to understand how many fish they are killing. Some try to justify it by saying “what about those that just take them home and freezer burn them and then through them away”. Well I say stop trying to justify what you’re doing by worrying about those people. We all need an education on how to manage this resource. If you are only going to fish for sport then learn the least lethal way to fish ie flies or lures. If you are going because you want to take home a limit to eat and want to fish with bait then only release those fish hooked in the lip…keeping all fish hooked deep or in the gills as your limit and then when you got your limit stop fishing or switch to artificial. It’s really pretty simple!


----------



## PBH

Hammer -- you consistently fail to recognize that a fish has a far greater chance of survival if it is released. Period. gut-hooked, gill-gaffed, anal-stabbed.....it doesn't matter. If the fish is released it's chances of survival are FAR greater!

If the fish is kept, it dies 100% of the time.


so, argue about slots, baits, and mortality all you want. It is a FACT that if you force people to release the fish -- no matter what technique, or how badly it is hooked -- some of those fish WILL LIVE!! Some > none.

Put the rainbows BACK in the slot. It was working. We have the numbers to prove it.


----------



## Catherder

Since the thread just keeps on going, one more question for you guys. 

I am curious about what condition the cutts are in at Panguitch? Are they getting above the slot yet? Since they aren't particularly hard to catch, their population health might be a barometer for how the slot is working overall? Also, I heard that the tiger trout planted there just vanished. true?


----------



## neverdrawn

Also, I heard that the tiger trout planted there just vanished. true?Fishing at Ice Off I caught 6 tigers rangeing in size from 18" to 12". I have fished several time since however, and haven't landed even one. I believe they are there, just in fewer numbers and perhaps a little more selective.


----------



## hamernhonkers

PBH said:


> Put the rainbows BACK in the slot. It was working. We have the numbers to prove it.


You say that but have provided no facts or proof to back it....Your word??? This is the world wide web! why should anyone for one second believe you???....To this point it is only your perception that it was working!

How many fish have been planted since the poisoning? How many angler day's on the water since the poisoning per year? Are those angler days increasing each year? How many fish are being keep each year? How many fish are being lost to hooking mortality each year? Is there more fish then feed now in the lake? Has there been any die off due to disease? What strain of rainbows are these? What is the growth rate of this strain of bows? What is the life expectancy of this strain of bows?

PBH you have the inside guy at the division right? Can't you get us the facts on what has been going on at the lake so we can see how these various causes may be affected what we are seeing in decreased average sizes of the bows? Also why were the bows put in a slot in the first place? Why where they removed? Why are the rest of the species of trout that reside in the lake still in the slot? Does this have anything to do with managing chubs? What was the mix of bows to cutts at first and then what did it change to as the management plan changed? Can you get us these answers and not more of your perception?

Let's get some facts up about this....Who has them?

The lake was treated to remove chubs...the division chose this time try to manage fish species that at a cretin point in their life cycle and size change feeding habits and pray on other fish (chubs) they believe the top predator fish are the cutts, and tigers so they are trying to manage these species to reach the size needed to become effective at eating and controlling the chub numbers. The original mix was to be 70/30 bows to cutts but was then changed to 60/40 bows to cutts. The bows were originally put in the slot as it was believed that they also help control the chubs. What was found was that too many fish were being lost to hooking mortality and the loud locals wanted to keep the bows that were in the slot so due to pressure changed it. Also the cutts are also part of a plan and the division needed them in the lake to restore range and keep them off the endangered species list. Sound about right PBH? It has been 5 or 6 years since I was having the conversations with the biologists and as I said my memory is the second shortest thing on me so I could have a couple things a little off.


----------



## hamernhonkers

Catherder said:


> Since the thread just keeps on going, one more question for you guys.
> 
> I am curious about what condition the cutts are in at Panguitch? Are they getting above the slot yet? Since they aren't particularly hard to catch, their population health might be a barometer for how the slot is working overall? Also, I heard that the tiger trout planted there just vanished. true?


Catherder,

To answer you question....Yes the cuts are getting above the slot. Last year I boated one cutt at 26" one tiger at 27" and the best bow went 28". Most of the cutts looked healthier just after ice off last year. They were fat and healthy but as the summer wore on overall they seemed to slenderer up. The bows on the other hand just seemed to get fatter and fatter. The tigers from ice off to ice on for the most part seem to stay solid. Finding them depended on time of year and water temps. So far this spring and I have landed one 23" cutt and one 25" bow as my best fish to date this year. I have been very limited though this spring with other obligations so my water time on the lake has been cut a lot....Planning on changing that though the next couple of weeks.


----------

