# retrieve lawfully taken elk and bison on the Kaibab National Forest.



## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

This should apply to National Forests in Utah

https://kvoa.com/ap-arizona-news/20...urt-upholds-motorized-retrieval-of-elk-bison/


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

It WAS that way in Utah for many years......wish it still was!


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## robiland (Jan 20, 2008)

I disagree 100% with this. This would open such a can of worms. PLus, those animals are not going to be easy to put in a vehicle even if they drive right to it. 2500 bison just picked up and put in the back of a truck? Never will happen. 

Learn how to clean the animal, quarter the animal and even debone the animal. I have been several miles in with an elk and no it wasnt easy. But the reward was worth it. For older people, its the same thing. We cant let everyone or anyone drive across the country. If someone sees a 2 track now days, its soon to be road. 

DONT EVER LET THIS PASS IN UTAH!!!


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

Well said rob.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I'm with robiland. No way this should be allowed. If you can't pack it out maybe you shouldn't be shooting it.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I know of at least 2 bison that were taken out whole down on the Henry Mountains. It isn't as hard as it sounds. All you really need is a piece of plywood and a winch mounted in the truck or even a come-a-long. But still most of these animals will be cut up into pieces to be placed on the atv to get hauled out. 

The problems start when people get caught driving their vehicles off road and then say that they were going to pick up a animal, not to mention when they are cutting corners on old roads. It is always the few that screw it up for the rest of the folks.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

I've done it in the past because my legs don't work much any more.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I've personally seen huge Henry's Bull bison brought out whole by people. There was a guide out of Hanksville that had a wrecker looking thing and he'd lift it up by the hind legs and drive it out. Lemme tell you, bison are huge but seeing one stretched out like that, its amazing.

I'm still impressed Goobs bison got drug out whole by that brute of a horse they had.


-DallanC


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I had a guy tell me a story about a guided bison hunt he did outside of Yellowstone that he was lucky enough to draw. He killed his bull about 3/4 of a mile from the truck in a canyon. The guide had a huge winch in the back of his truck with some ridiculous amount of cable on it and the winch was controlled by remote. They had a big sled that they took down to the bison along with the cable free spooling out. They gutted it and loaded it whole on this huge sled. The guide then hit the remote control and the winch pulled the bison back out of the canyon all the way to the tuck. He said they had to move the sled around trees and cut stuff out of the way but it was pretty slick. 

This story may be completely BS but the guy telling it was an experienced hunter and had a good reputation from what I knew. I also heard this like 10 years ago so maybe I am embellishing. Either way it's a fun story!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

ABSOLUTELY NOT!
This should be struck down by a higher court and the case made an example of. One of our tenets as hunters and users of public land is to "leave it better than we found it". This certainly does not further that notion. It contributes to not treading lightly and destruction of the land.

HEY.... BOTP!!!!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Airborne said:


> I had a guy tell me a story about a guided bison hunt he did outside of Yellowstone that he was lucky enough to draw. He killed his bull about 3/4 of a mile from the truck in a canyon. The guide had a huge winch in the back of his truck with some ridiculous amount of cable on it and the winch was controlled by remote. They had a big sled that they took down to the bison along with the cable free spooling out. They gutted it and loaded it whole on this huge sled. The guide then hit the remote control and the winch pulled the bison back out of the canyon all the way to the tuck. He said they had to move the sled around trees and cut stuff out of the way but it was pretty slick.
> 
> This story may be completely BS but the guy telling it was an experienced hunter and had a good reputation from what I knew. I also heard this like 10 years ago so maybe I am embellishing. Either way it's a fun story!


I know guys on the skyline drive above Manti that did it in the late 80's early 90s. They had 1600ft of aircraft cable and a gas powered engine mounted to the winch. They'd just string the cable down into the nasty canyons with some deadmen hung from trees.

Probably alot easier now that Mule Tape is so readily available, smaller setup and longer distance.

but yea, people been doing it for decades now.






-DallanC


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Bunch of Lazy Arizonians!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> I know guys on the skyline drive above Manti that did it in the late 80's early 90s. They had 1600ft of aircraft cable and a gas powered engine mounted to the winch. They'd just string the cable down into the nasty canyons with some deadmen hung from trees.
> 
> Probably alot easier now that Mule Tape is so readily available, smaller setup and longer distance.
> 
> ...


I shot a cow a few years ago and it was at the bottom of a deep basin. I went up to the truck to get my frame pack and a kind gentleman on the road pulls over and offers his winch and 5K feet of rope/cable. HE told me he and his kids had been using that setup for years. We ran the cable down to the cow and winched it up in about an hour. I now carry a winch and 2K feet 3000 lbs rope in 500Ft segments....life saver.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> I shot a cow a few years ago and it was at the bottom of a deep basin. I went up to the truck to get my frame pack and a kind gentleman on the road pulls over and offers his winch and 5K feet of rope/cable. HE told me he and his kids had been using that setup for years. We ran the cable down to the cow and winched it up in about an hour. I now carry a winch and 2K feet 3000 lbs rope in 500Ft segments....life saver.


I'm interested, is it a true drum winch holding that much line? Or a windlass type setup?

-DallanC


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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

This has been, is currently and will continue, to happen in Utah. I’m not sure if guys are blind or don’t realize what’s going on around them, but any animal knocked down in an area guys can get a vehicle to, will definitely do so. I witnessed it on the Henry’s, bookcliffs, Vernon, Nebo, manti and Wasatch just last year. If they can drive to it, or think they can, they will at least try. Lots of pics out there on social media with whole animals on ATVs or in beds of trucks where those vehicles aren’t anywhere near a road. I’m not sure why everyone’s so mad about this possibly coming to Utah when it’s already here. I see guys more fired up that someone drove up a closed road than they do when they weren’t even on the road


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> I'm interested, is it a true drum winch holding that much line? Or a windlass type setup?
> -DallanC


Not sure what a windlass is but if you are referring to pulling in segments then yes. That's what we did. The winch only has 200ft of cable so we pull 200ft then run the cable back down the bowl and attach it to a grab on the rope. You can also use a loop knot I guess. The animal came up 200 ft at a time.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> Not sure what a windlass is but if you are referring to pulling in segments then yes. That's what we did. The winch only has 200ft of cable so we pull 200ft then run the cable back down the bowl and attach it to a grab on the rope. You can also use a loop knot I guess. The animal came up 200 ft at a time.


Sounds like a drum winch then.

On a drum winch, the cable winds up and stays on the drum building up layers. On a windlass the rope is wrapped 4 or so turns around the drum and the excess or "tail" is discarded on the ground as its brought in.

To stop a pull with a drum winch, you have to stop the winch. On a windlass the operator adjusts the pulling rate by adjusting tension on the "tail", you don't have to turn off the windlass to stop a pull.

The advantage(s) of a windlass (popular on boats) is its very small compared to a drum winch. Also, you can take a anchored rope and start pulling at any spot on the rope regardless of length. The downside of a windlass is you end up with a pile of rope at your feet.

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Sounds like a drum winch then.
> -DallanC


Yes. Plain old bumper mounted drum winch. I know the other one as a continuous or anchor winch. It's a cool setup and as you mentioned I still end up with a pile of rope at my feet. I'd rather deal with the rope and not with having to carry an elk up the hill if I can help it.

In the pic I attached the distance between the the truck(blue) and the cow(red) was about 1600Ft. The elevation drop was maybe 250 to 300. Would you all be mad if I had driven the truck down there to recover it? I would have been pissed if someone did.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The question is could you of gotten your truck out after you drove it down? 

On the subject of taking a vehicle off of the road I don't think that they are talking about a situation such as that but possibly driving a ATV down a ridge line to a point where the animal can then be loaded to be hauled out. In areas where it is legal to do so I have driven down a ridge a couple of miles to pick up meat that has been packed up to that location. 

Back when it was legal to do it in Utah on Forest Service land most did it respectfully and only took the machines into the area once a animal was down to get it out. But there are always the few that would just drive into those areas just to look around and then drive back out or tear up the hillside when they got stuck or just playing around. 

For those that don't think that this should be alright I hope that you never have health problems or end up with bad knees or other joints that prevent you from packing very much weight. If you do are you willing to just give up hunting or are you planning on just road hunting, shooting nothing further than 10 yards off of the side of the road?


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

There is nothing wrong with Arizona making the decision they did! I fee its great to see someone stand up to the "tree huggers". 


We have speed limit laws don't we? some choose to speed, taking the risk of getting "Barny Fife" in there mirror and paying the man. Sure, some will choose to ride out on a ridge and spot for an animal. Some would use the ATV/UTV to only what the law allows. 


I find most of the people that bitch and complain about using this type of recovery don't own one. Are they mad because they want one but don't have one? Don't know.


I'd like to see the law changed in Utah to allow the use of a machine to recover game. If it ever is allowed, and someone tried to stop me, or got in my face, I **** sure guarantee your next vision of me would be from your back as your laying on the ground wondering what just happened.8)


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> There is nothing wrong with Arizona making the decision they did! I fee its great to see someone stand up to the "tree huggers".


It's not about the tree huggers. It's about the damage that happens to our public land. We are all stewards of the land and we should leave it better than we found it.



taxidermist said:


> We have speed limit laws don't we? some choose to speed, taking the risk of getting "Barny Fife" in there mirror and paying the man. Sure, some will choose to ride out on a ridge and spot for an animal. Some would use the ATV/UTV to only what the law allows.


Bad comparison. Speeding does not destroy the highway, it puts yourself and those around you in danger. That is why we have speed limits. In reality not that many people actually bust the speed limit. We push the boundary because it's our nature to operate at the limits of what is legal. We have forgotten about moral rights and wrongs. That is the reason we have become such a litigious society.



taxidermist said:


> I find most of the people that bitch and complain about using this type of recovery don't own one. Are they mad because they want one but don't have one? Don't know.


WRONG! You're saying most people are envious? Many hunters have own an ATV and do not use it for hunting, i'm one of them. So you don't know.



taxidermist said:


> I'd like to see the law changed in Utah to allow the use of a machine to recover game. If it ever is allowed, and someone tried to stop me, or got in my face, I **** sure guarantee your next vision of me would be from your back as your laying on the ground wondering what just happened.8)


And you would both be wrong morally if not legally. Whomever for trying to stop you and impose his ideals on you and you for physically assaulting that person. This is a clear example of the zeitgeist in the country. When there are two opposing sides neither one of them respects the rights of the other.

I would advocate for it remaining illegal to tread the wilderness for the recovery of game. If the law were to change all we can do is keep our chins up and know tried and be OK with the law.

If you can't retrieve your quarry then you are out of the game. I have an enormous support group that would help pack out an animal and I guarantee most of you do as well. So use those resources to retrieve your game and keep the land in pristine condition. If you do not have friends or family to do so. Hit me up and I will gladly help a fellow hunter in need; no strings attached.

TOTP!!!!


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

well I was one that said it shouldn't be allowed.
For the record i'm a old guy. I'll be 69 when the hunts start, and I am just coming off a 3 month hospital stay.
There is no way to control all the atv/ute traffic now days. All you have to do is drive any dirt road to see what people do. People get bored and take them off road just because they have to prove they are bad &[email protected]
I own one and use it to get to the area I want to hunt on existing trails open for their use.
But they day I can't get a critter out without driving to it will be the day I decide not to shoot one I can't handle.
Stay on designated roads and trails and leave the rest the best you can.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> It's not about the tree huggers. It's about the damage that happens to our public land. We are all stewards of the land and we should leave it better than we found it.
> 
> Bad comparison. Speeding does not destroy the highway, it puts yourself and those around you in danger. That is why we have speed limits. In reality not that many people actually bust the speed limit. We push the boundary because it's our nature to operate at the limits of what is legal. We have forgotten about moral rights and wrongs. That is the reason we have become such a litigious society.
> 
> ...


I never said I'd get "physical" with some one. As far as "treading on Wilderness land", it has and always will be illegal to do so. ANY type of equipment which is motorized isn't allowed.

So your telling me that I cant take an electric rubber tracked wheelchair buggy off the "road" to recover my animal, and that I am "OUT OF THE GAME"??? How dare you say what is right and wrong! just because your idea and passion of recovering game may be different that someone else's, don't be pushing it onto others.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I had never heard about this until this article, and have read nothing about it in other places. So my knowledge is extremely limited. It doesn’t sound like Arizona had anything to do with this. Sounds like it was the forest service that made the rule for that specific forest. One might ask who likes to hunt elk and bison in the Kaibab that has enough pull to make that rule change take place? 

But these winches with long ropes have me intrigued. Perfect setup for Skyline. I wouldn’t have thought that could work as well as decsribed.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Could've driven a pickup truck almost right up to these two critters much less an ATV. But, since it wasn't legal, we used "from the neck down" power instead...


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I'd like to see dedicated hours used for doing rehab on these off road tracks.
And to see projects like these more easily approved. 
Just take some before and after pictures, time stamped to prove how much time was spent on the rehab work.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

as a transplant, i was surprised how flippantly some utahns take land management issues. there's a reason why access is constantly being removed to good hunting habitat. people don't take care of the land or have respect for laws when no one is looking. most don't understand the impacts and the others just don't care.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

A bonus of a windlass over a drum winch is that with a windlass you always have the lowest gear ratio available for pulling power, as with a drum winch you lose pulling power as more and more cable is wound on the drum.
2500 lb pull tape, commonly called mule tape, coupled with a reciever hitch mounted two speed windlass and a 5 gal bucket for the tail would make an excellent retrieval device!
I have considered buying a gas 'chainsaw winch', taking the cable off and using the drum as a windlass, and seeing how well that might work?
Thoughts?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

shaner said:


> I have considered buying a gas 'chainsaw winch', taking the cable off and using the drum as a windlass, and seeing how well that might work?
> Thoughts?


I've seen a honda one you can just buy:






-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

A cousin has a small capstan winch that is based on a chainsaw that you can chain to a tree away from your truck and then run the line down to retrieve your animal similar to this one on Amazon

One thing on the mule tape. As it is pulled around trees and bushes it will start to fray and if you don't watch it it can snap quite easily. I have used miles of it.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Interesting thread for sure. I don't know if people are clueless to what happens once someone makes any type of trail, then someone follows it, then another, and another... and soon it's established until they have to come block it and put a sign up. It messes with habitat and will push the animals out of perfectly good areas.

My lazy comment was a joke, but since then we have lazy and "tough" guys bundled in one.


Hunters should be wilderness stewards at their core. I care about the forest more than I do driving to retrieve something that I guess I shouldn't have shot. Habit is diminishing by the day - what we have I want to protect as long as possible. Then again, I hunt where you can't get a vehicle so maybe I look at it different. I hate roads.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

taxidermist said:


> I never said I'd get "physical" with some one.


Wait, what? Please read the last sentence of your post #20.

We need more wilderness areas and less people thinking they should drive their ATV/UTV all over everywhere.

I've never owed an ATV/UTV and I probably never will. If I can't take horses, llamas or pack in - that really isn't a place I'll be hunting. The only exception is antelope hunting - I'll park my truck and hike. Packing an animal out of some nasty place, is just the part of the experience to me. Plus, who wants any hunt to end earlier than necessary and have to go back to work?


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

CPAjeff said:


> Wait, what? Please read the last sentence of your post #20.
> 
> We need more wilderness areas and less people thinking they should drive their ATV/UTV all over everywhere.
> 
> I've never owed an ATV/UTV and I probably never will. If I can't take horses, llamas or pack in - that really isn't a place I'll be hunting. The only exception is antelope hunting - I'll park my truck and hike. Packing an animal out of some nasty place, is just the part of the experience to me. Plus, who wants any hunt to end earlier than necessary and have to go back to work?


"We need MORE Wilderness" ??????? That has to be the best laugh I've had in a long time. Maybe you should work for the EPA and join PETA if you haven't already.

I've owned Horses. What a waist if your not using them everyday IMO. I own ATV's/UTV's use them almost every day. I guess to each his own.

With as large of business the ATV industry is, it would be very difficult to close every inch of Forest land, and make it Wilderness.

You push for Wilderness, and I'll push to keep roads open for ATV use. Oh ya, make sure you carry out your Human waist in a baggy and don't bury it. Don't need the water aquafer contaminated in any way.

That's it, I've spoken my mind and off the "sop box".-O,-


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

This has to be one of the most divided subjects out there.

Hey *taxidermist, *
your invited at my campfire anytime.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I’ve considered buying either a drill powered winch or a gas powered capstan winch for game retrieval.

I guess you have to decide whether you’d rather have your hunt disrupted briefly by an ATV recovering a downed animal or for an hour or more by a loud 4-stroke motor running.

I’m ok with driving cross country to recover game but I also see how easily it could and would be abused. It is definitely a divisive subject and not an easy one to resolve.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

taxidermist said:


> "We need MORE Wilderness" ??????? That has to be the best laugh I've had in a long time. Maybe you should work for the EPA and join PETA if you haven't already.
> 
> I've owned Horses. What a waste if your not using them everyday IMO. I own ATV's/UTV's use them almost every day. I guess to each his own.
> 
> ...


See comments in red. Additionally, I fixed your spelling - its hard to take an individual serious that can't spell and appears to be a walking contradiction - post #20 'getting physical' and then denying that same statement later on in the thread.

Yes, I DO think we should have more wilderness areas. Should I join PETA? Not sure how a group aimed at the ethical treatment of animals has anything of relevance in the general context of this discussion. . . nice try though.

On the topic of the EPA, do I support everything they do? Nope. Do I think they have some valid points? Yep.

You and I are probably at much different stages in life, so the debate is likely null. With the projected population increase in Utah, what do you think our public lands will look like in 20, 30 or even 40 years? Would it be adventitious to make some current adjustments to increase the likelihood of future generations being able to enjoy the outdoors?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons - just in case you haven't heard of this topic. I can site more academic journals if Wikipedia isn't good enough for you . . .

You're welcome at my fire anytime, it just might not be accessible to you and your ATV/UTV.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that the problem lies in the enforcement of the laws of riding off road. 

I know of a spot up White River where a hunting group rides their ATV's into every year to pack out a cow or a spike. They are in and out on a old road during the weekend. I have also never seen a official up there to ticket them on the weekend. We ran into a Forest Service officer one year during the week and he asked us about the ATV tracks on the old road. We told him the truth, that if they were there during the weekends when people are running into these restricted area that they could do something about it. We still haven't seen them up there during the weekend. 

The same with BLM land, the officers are out during the week of Monday-Friday but forget about it Saturday and Sunday. It is no different than reporting those that are homesteading with their trailers all summer. I reported a half dozen of them one year out on the South West Desert, The BLM's response was that they would check into it. Come this spring the same campers will be found in the same spots. On one of them they have even built up a fire ring out of cinder blocks on public land. 

As for taking ATV's into to bring out a animal, I have seen just as much damage done by horses. Granted if the ATV's wanted to tear up the hillside they can do it easier than a horse can but I have seen areas where riders stay on the same trail and that trail is now a foot deep.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The last freakin thing we need is more wilderness or monuments!

Im still so pissed over the Esclante monument , Bill C can kiss my $SS.

At least we are finally making ground to shrink it to were I can show my kidds some REALLY cool place I thought they may never see.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

APD said:


> as a transplant, i was surprised how flippantly some utahns take land management issues. there's a reason why access is constantly being removed to good hunting habitat. people don't take care of the land or have respect for laws when no one is looking. most don't understand the impacts and the others just don't care.


I'm a transplant as well (from rural southern Illinois) and very much enjoy all types of outdoor recreation. I really love unspoiled wilderness and enjoy endurance running in it, so it does really bother me when I spend a hard 2 hours running 10 miles and several thousand feet of vertical climbing to get to a "wilderness" area and I pass lots of ATVs, beer cans on the trail, ruts, etc. It boggles my mind that people around here tout being stewards of the land, yet they're willing to constantly drive 4 hours every other weekend to ride their side by side somewhere. Regardless of one's opinion on fossil fuels and climate change, I don't really enjoy breathing the inversion air in winter or ozone in the summer.

I understand the use of ATVs and horses. It's a recreation just like everything else, but unfortunately it does have a huge impact on the land. I grew up hunting whitetail, where we would sit in a tree and then drive the 4 wheeler into the woods to haul the deer out. It was our own land and that's just the way people do it around there. But, in deciding I want to elk hunt in the backcountry, part of the draw for me is the wilderness aspect and all of the other really hard **** that comes with it; hiking several miles out one way from the car, maybe finding elk or not, having to quarter it up in the field and haul hundreds of pounds of meat on my back. I don't want to come across other people or motors when I get out there.

Maybe some of that will change when I'm 75 and I'll be wanting a horse or atv if I don't have a crew of younger people to help me get it out. But, you can be sure that I'll abide by the laws set by the land management. If we want to continue to be able to enjoy the countryside, people need to obey the laws on public land use because they were set in place to conserve our special places. That was kind of a ramble, but I believe that's what I am trying to say.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

CPAdeaf You must have been a School Teacher before counting beans. Thanks for the corrections! Glad to see your perfect. A bean counter needs to be. Assuming you are a CPA? I'm guessing by your name. 


Now, leave me alone and bug someone else with your intelligence. Besides, your going to miss your next Tree Hugger meeting. Say hello for me, I'll be in the Razor screaming past you.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Sorry folks! I thought I was off my "Soapbox"


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

while we're talking about atv's and horses. i'll take those over all the **** cows i see tearing up the mtn/hillsides and spreading weeds everywhere.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> The last freakin thing we need is more wilderness or monuments!
> 
> Im still so pissed over the Esclante monument , Bill C can kiss my $SS.
> 
> At least we are finally making ground to shrink it to were I can show my kidds some REALLY cool place I thought they may never see.


And all the wilderness study areas are just as bad.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

taxidermist said:


> CPAdeaf You must have been a School Teacher before counting beans. Nope. I actually just paid attention in third grade, something you must not have done. Thanks for the corrections! Glad to see your perfect.The proper term here is you're - as in you are. The term 'your' makes reference to a belonging to or associated with the person (e.g. your hat, your car, your house, etc.). A bean counter needs to be. Assuming you are a CPA? I'm guessing by your name. That is correct.
> 
> Now, leave me alone and bug someone else with your intelligence. Besides, your once again, the proper term is you're going to miss your next Tree Hugger meeting. If you consider RMEF, DU and Pheasants Forever one of those meetings, then I'll be enjoying myself with other individuals who love hunting as much as I do. Say hello for me, I'll be in the Razor screaming past you.


Just because . . . :mrgreen: 

This link might help your grammar - 



.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

wutts da thurd grad ?? I dun no. You truly are a Character. You missed a group that takes your money I think you need to join. SFW. 


Please, don't confront me or my intellect anymore. When you retire as I have done then I'll welcome your thoughts. I'm sure I'll be long gone before you see the "R" word. Meanwhile, keep counting the beans.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

taxidermist said:


> wutts da thurd grad ?? I dun no. You truly are a Character. You missed a group that takes your money I think you need to join. SFW.
> 
> Please, don't confront me or my intellect anymore. When you retire as I have done then I'll welcome your thoughts. I'm sure I'll be long gone before you see the "R" word. Meanwhile, keep counting the beans.


I have not one time confronted your intellect, but I have confronted your ignorance. You seem to know so much about others and their financial state. Honestly, congratulations on retirement. I sincerely hope you are enjoying it, and will continue to enjoy it. It takes a lot of sacrifice and hard work to save, invest, etc. to be able to retire. However, I wouldn't be so quick to judge another's ability to retire. I'll see you in retirement and it'll be well before I hit the age of 45.

Take care!


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

taxidermist said:


> I'd like to see the law changed in Utah to allow the use of a machine to recover game. If it ever is allowed, and someone tried to stop me, or got in my face, I **** sure guarantee your next vision of me would be from your back as your laying on the ground wondering what just happened.8)





taxidermist said:


> I never said I'd get "physical" with some one. As far as "treading on Wilderness land", it has and always will be illegal to do so. ANY type of equipment which is motorized isn't allowed.


Just pointing out that based on your two comments above you contradicted yourself.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

We personally don't own any atv's and likely never will, but I do see how some people may need them due to age and/or health reasons, as long as they keep them on the proper trails I say each to their own.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I own a horse and an atv. They have their advantages and disadvantages over each other but they are both fun and I will continue to take advantage of both as long as I can. I side with the no atv to retrieve downed game because I have a horse.

Ill add that I use my crew cab long bed F350 to get around more than anything else these days. Way more comfortable. You wont catch me off trail in that thing. 

Pack it out on your back, on a horse, an atv if legal. Just get out there! You cant lose.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

The problem is too many can’t follow the guidelines of the road and trail closures currently in place. A few years back a section of road was closed in an area I hunt. A buck rail fence was finally put up to block it off because too many people just kept breaking off the sign driving right over the top of it. One morning elk hunt I arrived early and Hiked down the mile long section of closed road only to find 4 trucks parked there. They had simply driven through the forest around the end of the 100’ long section of rail fence. In spite of reporting multiple offenders I never once saw enforcement in that area in spite of being told that enforcement would be at that particular area on the opening morning of the hunt. I do not fault enforcement. They are spread very thin. It is the responsibility of all of us to follow the rules for conservation’s sake and for the sake of fairness to others. I was pretty ticked that morning. I really wanted to stop and let all the air out the tires of all four trucks. But, that would have cut into my hunting time. Good thing I didn’t too because about an hour later I was in perfect position and bagged a nice 5 point bull.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

BGD said:


> The problem is too many can't follow the guidelines of the road and trail closures currently in place. A few years back a section of road was closed in an area I hunt. A buck rail fence was finally put up to block it off because too many people just kept breaking off the sign driving right over the top of it. One morning elk hunt I arrived early and Hiked down the mile long section of closed road only to find 4 trucks parked there. They had simply driven through the forest around the end of the 100' long section of rail fence. In spite of reporting multiple offenders I never once saw enforcement in that area in spite of being told that enforcement would be at that particular area on the opening morning of the hunt. I do not fault enforcement. They are spread very thin. It is the responsibility of all of us to follow the rules for conservation's sake and for the sake of fairness to others. I was pretty ticked that morning. I really wanted to stop and let all the air out the tires of all four trucks. But, that would have cut into my hunting time. Good thing I didn't too because about an hour later I was in perfect position and bagged a nice 5 point bull.


For less than $2 you can buy a core stem remover and takes about 5 seconds per tire to remove the core valve, just an idea for future reference, never done it myself but there are a few repeat offenders I can think of in the area I hunt that may be deserving of such an inconvenience.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

30-06-hunter said:


> For less than $2 you can buy a core stem remover and takes about 5 seconds per tire to remove the core valve, just an idea for future reference, never done it myself but there are a few repeat offenders I can think of in the area I hunt that may be deserving of such an inconvenience.


That's nice, so the cure is vandalism to a persons vehicle?


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

APD said:


> while we're talking about atv's and horses. i'll take those over all the **** cows i see tearing up the mtn/hillsides and spreading weeds everywhere.


You really should understand the cows or cabins question. If land isn't in production (ranching/farming) it gets sold. Loose the habitat loose the big game herds. Ranching is an important economic factor in rural areas. Ranch water development, predator control, and regular presence also benefit big game herds.


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

> For less than $2 you can buy a core stem remover and takes about 5 seconds per tire to remove the core valve, just an idea for future reference, never done it myself but there are a few repeat offenders I can think of in the area I hunt that may be deserving of such an inconvenience.


I have a couple core removers I just never considered them as critical equipment for my hunt pack. Probably a good thing I didn't have one because if I had the temptation might have been too great. Critter I agree. Vandalism to others property is not the answer but it doesn't mean it isn't tempting some time and it also doesn't mean there aren't some people out there that aren't also deserving of the inconvenience 30-06 mentions.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

OriginalOscar said:


> You really should understand the cows or cabins question. If land isn't in production (ranching/farming) it gets sold. Loose the habitat loose the big game herds. Ranching is an important economic factor in rural areas. Ranch water development, predator control, and regular presence also benefit big game herds.


true but it's sad to see them crapping their way through the national forest. it's almost like an election. you get to pick the lesser of two evils.

on a side note, if us people weren't around to "manage" the game animals they would be better off.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> That's nice, so the cure is vandalism to a persons vehicle?


Sometimes....YES! Although the term vandalism seems harsh.

One day maybe I'll share an experience out in the duck marsh about this. Moral of the story: don't try and shoot other people.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

BGD said:


> I have a couple core removers I just never considered them as critical equipment for my hunt pack. Probably a good thing I didn't have one because if I had the temptation might have been too great. Critter I agree. Vandalism to others property is not the answer but it doesn't mean it isn't tempting some time and it also doesn't mean there aren't some people out there that aren't also deserving of the inconvenience 30-06 mentions.





Vanilla said:


> Sometimes....YES! Although the term vandalism seems harsh.
> 
> One day maybe I'll share an experience out in the duck marsh about this. Moral of the story: don't try and shoot other people.


I'll be the first one to agree here. The things that I have thought about doing to those "homesteaders" trailers can't be printed. But as I have aged I have mellowed out quite a bit.

I look at it as it is no different than someone who is parking in a handicap parking place that has no right to be there, except the way that I used to think I wouldn't stop at just letting the air out of the tires.

With age come wisdom. Not to mention not wanting to ending up the guest of the local police.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I have a solution to the ATV or Foot problem! Let's build a wall along the sides of Forest roads. That works doesn't it?


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Deflating someone's tire could be seen as wanton destruction of property, aka vandalism, and could put you into more trouble than the dude who drove behind a closed road.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> The last freakin thing we need is more wilderness or monuments!
> 
> Im still so pissed over the Esclante monument , Bill C can kiss my $SS.
> 
> At least we are finally making ground to shrink it to were I can show my kidds some REALLY cool place I thought they may never see.


Oh geez...I know some places on the Escalante that have been ruined by ATVs. I wish I could take my kids to those places and see how awesome they used to be.

I also know of some great places to fish (just up the mountain from the monument) prior to the 1990s....sadly, though, those places were ruined by ATVs and more are being ruined even today. I pray every year that we can get some of these roads closed. In fact, despite giant boulders and signs being put up to try to keep people on the roads near a couple good lakes, I have watched many times over the years as people drive right around the signs and right up to the lakes leaving a perfect road for silt and mud to wash into the lake and further cause damage.

What pisses me off is that some of our state's leaders are now pushing to put some of that Escalante Monument into a new national park...and most likely end my hunting and fishing in that area forever.

Putting that land into a monument was such a good move...what pisses me off is how stupid people are for wanting it reduced so that more idiots can destroy it!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

taxidermist said:


> I have a solution to the ATV or Foot problem! Let's build a wall along the sides of Forest roads. That works doesn't it?


yeah, I'm all in. Let's do it! Keep the **** things on the road.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> I never said I'd get "physical" with some one.


I'm not sure how this reads to anyone else but; if all of a sudden I'm laying on my back wondering what just happened, it means you had to put me there. Only way that is happening is if you get physical.



taxidermist said:


> As far as "treading on Wilderness land", it has and always will be illegal to do so. ANY type of equipment which is motorized isn't allowed.


And I hope that as long as that law is in place you respect it and abide by it. If the law were to change then you can certainly drive and get your animal. I for one would not because I think it's wrong and to me, it being legal doesn't make it right. Just like recreational pot in some states.



taxidermist said:


> So your telling me that I cant take an electric rubber tracked wheelchair buggy off the "road" to recover my animal, and that I am "OUT OF THE GAME"??? How dare you say what is right and wrong! just because your idea and passion of recovering game may be different that someone else's, don't be pushing it onto others.


If it's legal to do so than by all means take it off road and get your game. Don't take things so personally because it's not a personal attack; it's the sharing of an opinion. I don't presume to tell anyone what is right or wrong because my moral compass is not the same one you navigate with.

As far as being out of the game, you can decide when you are out. I just am a firm believer that we should never bite off more than we can chew. Don't buy a car if you can't afford it, don't jump out of a plane if you don't have a parachute and don't shoot an animal if you don't have the ability, means or help to retrieve it. It really is that simple.

Nothing personal in this. By all means flag me down when you need help and I will gladly take the time to help you get your game out. I have been a pack mule for complete strangers far more than I have been a hunter. When we're done, come sit by the fire and tell us your story and we won't be strangers anymore.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

WtoU
Your typing like you might need some MEDs.....?.........LOL.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> What pisses me off is that some of our state's leaders are now pushing to put some of that Escalante Monument into a new national park...and most likely end my hunting and fishing in that area forever.
> 
> Putting that land into a monument was such a good move...what pisses me off is how stupid people are for wanting it reduced so that more idiots can destroy it!


And that is the problem with monument designation. It puts it into another class making it easier to redesignate as something else.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

the best thing to ever happen to Garfield / Kane counties was the GSENM.

The enabling act on that monument provided protection and continued multiple use activities, like grazing, hunting, and recreational ATV riding, on public land. What a novel concept.

I'm against more roads. I'm against ATV cross-country travel.

I'm a proud owner of a 2000 Polaris Sportsman 500 and a 2016 Kawasaki Teryx4.
I also own an Eberlestock pack that has hauled more elk out of the woods than both of my ATVs combined.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

When I shot my bull, I had a flash of inspiration and took off hiking... down the mountain. The keys were still in the backhoe, so I fire'd it up... drove right up to the bull, picked it up with the hay forks and drove back down and set it down in the back of the truck.

It was exhausting. I had to have a cold coke afterwards.


-DallanC


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> And that is the problem with monument designation. It puts it into another class making it easier to redesignate as something else.


No, that's the problem with the thinking of our republican legislators...they decide that in order to appease the left that they will give them something else to make up for it. In the meantime, they piss off those of us even more who like the designation to begin with. It's called a bait-and-switch.

And, Goofy, if it looks like I am typing pissed, I am. This is one issue that really pisses me off...the stupidity of people in our state who want to continue raping, pillaging, and plundering the greatness of our public land. And, when protections are put in place to keep our great hunting and fishing traditions in place, those same stupid people bemoan the protections to the point that we might lose our rights to hunt and fish forever. Yeah, that pisses me off! It pisses me off that I have some great waters I have fished for a long time and we are in jeopardy of losing those same waters to the point that fish won't live in them because stupid people are too lazy to walk a handful of feet to get to the water. It even pisses me off more when people complain about road closures and lack of ATV access to such places.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I think there was a time long ago, when off trail use of 4 wheelers or even trucks, to retrieve game in Utah could be feasible. But over the last 30 years, me, along with many others, have watched the ways that people feel entitled to abuse the land for a myriad of reasons. Years ago, I worked with several BLM offices to help define travel management policy, and game retrieval always came up. And really, it is an issue of consistency. If it is OK to retrieve your elk, then why not to get to a spot for a photo opp for the photographer, or to get closer to a lake or stream to fish, or whatever else you want to do. The thing is, when it comes to vehicles, the reason for going off trail is irrelevant, yet the impact is the same. I can come up with a dozen or more hobbies that might be better enjoyed by occasionally going off the trail. But the end result is increased erosion and destruction of what we are out to enjoy in the first place. As more and more people live in the city and head to the mountains for escape of the urban stress, they do so with motorized lazy-boys in tow. And not to be overly generalist here, but most people that have lived their lives in urban settings, lack understanding of stewardship of the shared resources, and the impacts they have on those resources. Try for a quiet evening of fishing, hiking, or camping at Tibble Fork, Silver Lake, Lake Mary, or any other high elevation lakes along the Wasatch and consider what that really is. 

I guess that Arizona can do what they want to do. And maybe on the Kaibab, they simply don't get the motorized traffic, or ecological abuse that most public lands in Utah take. Who knows. I just know that from what I observed in 20 years of public lands and recreation management in Utah, is that Utahans are simply selfish, entitled, and inconsiderate when it comes to using public lands. And it is that lack of consideration that is at the center of needed restrictions.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> Try for a quiet evening of fishing, hiking, or camping at *Tibble Fork* ... or any other high elevation lakes along the Wasatch and consider what that really is.


Tibble Fork is a prime example of how to ruin a nice place. They reworked the dam, dredged the bottom, raised the water level a bit... that's all fine and dandy.

But then they trucked in the sand to make a "beach area". THAT'S what ruined it. It now attracts the slobs and the worst of humanity from every corner of the state it seems. Its continually a trashy, littered area filled with rude / disrespectful people only looking out for their own interests and their own self-defined fun.

-DallanC


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> No, that's the problem with the thinking of our republican legislators...they decide that in order to appease the left that they will give them something else to make up for it. In the meantime, they piss off those of us even more who like the designation to begin with. It's called a bait-and-switch.


All I am saying is that it is easier to add more stringent controls, or shutdown hunting altogether, on something other than BLM or USFS.


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## bow_hunter44 (Feb 3, 2019)

It is not just public land where the lazy, entitled, inconsiderate, disrespectful show their colors. I had private land my from day one growing up (mountain and farm). We never locked the gate on the mountain until we had tack missing from the tack shed - then the gate got locked. I remember vividly driving up to the lock to find where someone in a jeep (long before the days of ATV's) had driven around the lock and tore the hell out of the everything getting around the lock. My dad was livid. Can't say as I blame him. Enter extreme measures to keep people out. And people wonder why private land gets locked up and privileges on public land get taken away. Go figure!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Seems to me that most the private land is now CWMU. I hunted such a place 20 years ago.


Now the "Old Man" passed, and the "Kids" offered it to the highest bidder to manage the property as a CWMU. I was upset for sure, but I can't blame them for doing what they did.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> All I am saying is that it is easier to add more stringent controls, or shutdown hunting altogether, on something other than BLM or USFS.


And, don't think our State representatives don't know this too!

That's why many of us _want_ areas designated! We want more stringent controls over how those lands are used -- and, the GSENM was a PRIME example of how to do it! It protected hunting rights. It protected grazing rights. It protected public access to public lands for recreational purposes. It created millions of acres of some of the most pristine country in Utah and set it aside with some controls so that future generations can enjoy hunting, fishing, ATV riding, hiking, camping, cattle grazing, and enjoying that beautiful desert.

And, yet, our State continues to cry foul about it. They want to "take it back". And, for what? To sell it to the highest bidder so that they can put a fence around it with a "keep out" sign while they mine, and truck the coal out?

That's sad.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

But, just as easy as those rights were protected, they could be taken as well since it has to serve all the general public. In the eyes of lawmakers, hunting is a privilege and not a right. Protection in the case of BE and GS keeps the greedy UT legislature from having their way with it. Different agencies manage different federal lands in different ways. The BLM can say "No Way Jose" to drilling while the USFS welcomes it.

You may be able to hunt monument lands, but you also have a lot of "private land" rules applied as well keeping you from hunting it the way you want, or need to.

My point, and probably poorly made, is just because federal land is "protected" via monument status does not mean you will always be able to use it for your form of recreation. There is no guarantee.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> You may be able to hunt monument lands, but you also have a lot of "private land" rules applied as well keeping you from hunting it the way you want, or need to.


Expound on this thought. How is/are the rules for hunting on monument lands any different from hunting on regular USFS or BLM lands? From what I can tell, there is no difference.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

It's kind of funny. I've had the privilege of hunting private lands in Utah and Montana over the years. On the private lands, the owner allowed me to take a truck or wheeler anywhere I wanted - cross country, wherever I wanted, in order to find and retrieve the game. And the main reason is that one truck doesn't hurt, and he knew there would not be another 200 trucks that would follow the path and turn it into a road. The instruction I got from one land owner in Montana was "I don't care if you drive off the road. Just don't drive over your tracks on the way back."


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

bow_hunter44 said:


> It is not just public land where the lazy, entitled, inconsiderate, disrespectful show their colors. I had private land my from day one growing up (mountain and farm). We never locked the gate on the mountain until we had tack missing from the tack shed - then the gate got locked. I remember vividly driving up to the lock to find where someone in a jeep (long before the days of ATV's) had driven around the lock and tore the hell out of the everything getting around the lock. My dad was livid. Can't say as I blame him. Enter extreme measures to keep people out. And people wonder why private land gets locked up and privileges on public land get taken away. Go figure!


We have property and we left the gate open ALL YEAR, except when we would be hunting.

People literally pulled it out once with a dozer. Things have settled down now days (that was long ago) - but about 8-10 years ago we were having people start to go around the gate. It's a road cut into a mountain, so steep up on one side, steep down on the other. On the down side, we basically dug the hill in more so there was not much room before the gate and put in an upright post in what was left. Well, here came billy bob dead set his atv would go around. It didn't. Billy Bob rolled down the hill and broke some things. We didn't bat an eye.

All we wanted was the 10 or so days a year to enjoy it for ourselves, and the other 355 everyone was allowed to. Unfortunately that wasn't enough. People are beyond entitled in Utah. Both public and private land.

Down at the Henry's last year we were tracking some Big bucks up a ridge (no road within a mile) - here came a SxS ripping up the ridge. People simply don't care and are willing to destroy habit (and themselves/machine) because they take "this land is your land, this land is MY LAND" to heart.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

My problem with the National Monument status is that they can quickly change from a monument to a National Park. Zion, Bryce, Arches , and Capital Reef were all monuments before becoming National Parks. In the case of Zion, and Bryce it happened fairly quickly. 

I am all for preserving what we have but it is coming to the point that it is restricting a lot of outdoor people from enjoying what we have. Little things like leaving roads open in the National Forest instead of closing them have a huge effect on some people that enjoyed them. 

As for folks riding whatever off of the roads and making their own it comes down to enforcement. I am a firm believer that there should be registration numbers on all vehicles like there are on boats where others can see them from a distance and not just a 4"x4" sticker. Perhaps then after a bunch of them get reported for running where they should not be it might help.

As for off roading down on the Henry Mountains, there are areas where according to the BLM you can drive off road. I won't condone it unless they were going in to or coming out packing a animal even if it was allowed.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> As for off roading down on the Henry Mountains, there are areas where according to the BLM you can drive off road. I won't condone it unless they were going in to or coming out packing a animal even if it was allowed.


I could be wrong because I don't have the map in front of me, but the latest travel map I've seen only allowed vehicles on designated routes. There are very few areas on BLM that off road travel is still allowed.

Sorry found the map. https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/uploads/BLMUtahHenryMountainsMap.pdf


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

A major difference between a monument and a national park is that a monument can be declared unilaterally by the President. Whereas, a national park takes an act of congress. The change does not happen quickly. In the cases of Zion, Bryce, Arches and Capitol Reef, those changes happened in order to secure more funding and exposure, to allow for greater visitor services, as well as greater protection of specific resources. It was after management as a monument showed that such increases in visitor services and resource protection were necessary. 

As for off roading in the Henry Mountains - As far as I know, there are no areas that are classified as "open to OHV" use. The area around Factory Butte is "Open" to off trail use. But in the Henry Mountains, I'm pretty sure it is limited to designated roads and trails only.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> I am all for preserving what we have but it is coming to the point that it is restricting a lot of outdoor people from enjoying what we have. Little things like leaving roads open in the National Forest instead of closing them have a huge effect on some people that enjoyed them.


But, that's the irony of this argument--if we don't preserve what we have, we will all lose it. These roads that are being closed down are not being closed just to spite people and keep people from enjoying or recreating on public land; they are being closed to preserve and protect the very things people are riding to experience.

The perfect examples are some of these lakes I love on the Boulder Mountain. I can think of several specific examples where, in just the last 15-20 years of my life, fisheries are not overwintering fish because of erosion caused by roads. Sadly, in some cases, even though the roads are closed, those wonderful ATVers and offroaders just keep driving them--over, around, and even through barriers put in to keep them out. I can remember one wingnut this past summer who complained how the DWR ruined the lake we were fishing while he sat on his ATV that he drove around a barrier and right up to the shore of the lake.

Heck, I have even progressed in my thinking to the point that I wish the whole Boulder top were closed to motorized vehicles even though that would probably mean I would never see some of those places again. Why? So, that maybe my kids and their kids could potentially enjoy those places in as pristine of a condition as possible rather than altogether losing them like I see currently happening.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I know that on the last bison hunt I was on down there the BLM gave us a map that showed a number of areas where off road travel was allowed. This was several years ago.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I saw something quit comical this past Elk hunt in the Fish Lake area. A "Tree Cop" had slid off the road, and was stuck good. It was a snowy, rainy mess and the roads were slick! 


He asked if I could help him. (I was on my 4 wheeler) I chuckled, and ask him why he drove his truck into the area. He said he was checking on camp sites and making sure folks were abiding the law. 


I suggested that he should have unloaded the 4 wheeler in the back of his truck to do his job knowing what the road conditions were.


He created a big mess, and tore up the landscape before getting the truck back on the road. I'm betting he never gave himself a ticket for destroying Forest land. :shock:


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

In my area we have a mix of FS, DNR and State Parks personnel monitoring the activities of people recreating in the area. For everyone of those driving a truck or atv there are hundreds of others in all kinds of vehicles using the same roads and trails. It doesn't matter one bit the weather or road conditions all those people just have to get somewhere.
If you think your atv doesn't make a mess of wet dirt roads you are kidding your self.
I won't even get into leave no trace. It doesn't matter what the conditions are people are out there because they can. **** the damage they cause.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

I can’t believe i just read nine pages of this crap. People like taxidermist are the reason we need more protection for our forest. 
I do have a bad or maybe not habit of being that guy that confronts people driving off trail and have had many conversations with those people. Mostly they have been calm conversations.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Hoopermat said:


> I can't believe i just read nine pages of this crap. People like taxidermist are the reason we need more protection for our forest.
> I do have a bad or maybe not habit of being that guy that confronts people driving off trail and have had many conversations with those people. Mostly they have been calm conversations.


People like taxidermist???? You have no idea who I am, or what I'm about. You read a few comments on a thread that I've made, and you think you have me pegged? How can you make that kind of accusation?

I could make a statement about you, but I don't know you, so how could I do that accurately? From your comments above toward me, I have an idea, but I'll refrain from posting them.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> Little things like leaving roads open in the National Forest instead of closing them have a huge effect on some people that enjoyed them.


One of the big issues with closing roads is whether or not the road in question is (or was) a legal road to begin with. With ATVs, far too often, roads appear where a road previously was not. Then the USFS (or BLM) closes these "roads", and people get upset. In the minds of many, it doesn't matter if the road is legal or not -- they just want it open.



Critter said:


> I am all for preserving what we have but it is coming to the point that it is restricting a lot of outdoor people from enjoying what we have.


Critter -- just an honest question: How did the creation of the GSENM restrict you, or anyone else you know, from enjoying that area?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

PBH said:


> One of the big issues with closing roads is whether or not the road in question is (or was) a legal road to begin with. With ATVs, far too often, roads appear where a road previously was not. Then the USFS (or BLM) closes these "roads", and people get upset. In the minds of many, it doesn't matter if the road is legal or not -- they just want it open.
> 
> Critter -- just an honest question: How did the creation of the GSENM restrict you, or anyone else you know, from enjoying that area?


What is a legal road? Is it one that only the Forest Service built and maintains? What about access roads into stock ponds that the Forest Service/BLM allow to be built? What about a road that went to a old homestead that reverted back to the National Forest/BLM? I have seen a number of these type of roads closed off by the governing body. I have even gone to open houses where this has been talked about and suggested areas and roads to be closed off.

As for GSNM all I am saying is that once a area is designated as a National Monument it can be changed to a National Park a lot quicker than just creating a National Park. It has already gotten some protections by having the Monument status.

The sad thing is that we need to trust our politicians to protect our land for us. Some lean too far one way and some too far the other way. But in the long run they can put protections and restrictions on the land that will protect it without creating parks or monuments out of it.

But does creating a National Monument out of a area prevent some people that decided to go off of the designated roads? No it doesn't, but as I said before it comes down to enforcement of the laws.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> What is a legal road? Is it one that only the Forest Service built and maintains? What about access roads into stock ponds that the Forest Service/BLM allow to be built? What about a road that went to a old homestead that reverted back to the National Forest/BLM?


You make it sound like the definition of a "legal" road is some arbitrary thing. It isn't. The USFS has definitions for roads, and rules and regulations that govern how new roads are approved and implemented. Just because an ATV drives into a stock pond, and then another ATV follows those tracks, and it eventually develops into a well-traveled "road" does not make it legal. If the USFS / BLM "allowed it to be built" then a NEPA process was most likely followed, and the road thus made legal. This may, or may not, apply to roads that have been used for many years. This may also include "maintenance" roads with different designations (Level 1, 2, 3, etc.) that may prevent public use. It might also include Development Roads, such as short term roads associated with fire suppression, or timber harvest -- this does not make them "legal to use by the general public" and could be closed.



Critter said:


> I have seen a number of these type of roads closed off by the governing body. I have even gone to open houses where this has been talked about and suggested areas and roads to be closed off.


Just because the general public gets mad doesn't make it wrong (or right depending on the subject of discussion).



Critter said:


> As for GSNM all I am saying is that once a area is designated as a National Monument it can be changed to a National Park a lot quicker than just creating a National Park.  It has already gotten some protections by having the Monument status.


Yep -- those protections guarantee that numerous extraction activities are limited (eliminated?) so that we, as sportsmen, should never have to worry about losing those wild and beautiful places that we enjoy recreating in.



Critter said:


> The sad thing is that we need to trust our politicians to protect our land for us. Some lean too far one way and some too far the other way. But in the long run they can put protections and restrictions on the land that will protect it without creating parks or monuments out of it.


In Utah, our politicians don't appear to want to protect anything, and would rather sell it all to the extraction industry. They have no interest in putting protections and restrictions on any land -- quite the opposite. They want protections and restrictions removed. For what reason?



Critter said:


> But does creating a National Monument out of a area prevent some people that decided to go off of the designated roads? No it doesn't, but as I said before it comes down to enforcement of the laws.


You are correct. A monument will not prevent people breaking ATV rules. But a monument certainly does protect your right to operate an ATV legally within that monument (assuming that activity is allowed, which it is in the GSENM). It further protects the monument from being raped and pillaged by our State government.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> As for GSNM all I am saying is that once a area is designated as a National Monument it can be changed to a National Park a lot quicker than just creating a National Park.


How so? Either way, it takes Congress to make a national park and has to go through the legislative process. How does making an area a national monument speed up that process?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> How so? Either way, it takes Congress to make a national park and has to go through the legislative process. How does making an area a national monument speed up that process?


I had the same question. With the Parks in Utah, it took considerable work from Utah's congressional delegation to get them elevated to Park status. It was far from quick.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Congress works in mysterious ways. All it takes is for them to get a hair up their rear and they might do anything. Remember they don't care what they do with your money. 

It is the same way with a "Wilderness Study Area" One week it is open to everyone, next week it is a study area to see if they can make a wilderness area out of it and then it is a wilderness. I have seen quite a few of those pushed through congress in fairly short order. 

Back on the roads some it can also be atributed to a Forest Service supervisor that does not like ATV's or 4x4's. We have that in one forest here in Colorado. He quickly banned ATV's and 4x4's on a number of roads. You can drive road licensed vehicles on them but no vehicles that just require stickers. The big problem with that here in Colorado is that you can not register a ATV for on highway operation like you can in Utah. But a person from Utah that has a ATV registered for the road can come and drive on these roads all day long. 

But when it comes down to it we are just going to have to agree to disagree unless you don't want to agree with that.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> Congress works in mysterious ways. All it takes is for them to get a hair up their rear and they might do anything. Remember they don't care what they do with your money.
> 
> It is the same way with a "Wilderness Study Area" One week it is open to everyone, next week it is a study area to see if they can make a wilderness area out of it and then it is a wilderness. I have seen quite a few of those pushed through congress in fairly short order.


So, there is no difference? Congress could get a wild "hair" any year and any time to designate any piece of public land a national park provided they can prove through the legislative process that the land should be designated (therein lies the rub). So, really whether the land is already designated as a national monument or not doesn't make the process any slower or faster.

As far as Wilderness Study Areas go, again, they have to go through Congress and the legislative process.

Do you realize all laws are changed through this same process?

By way of comparison, the ability of the President to designate national monuments through the antiquities act is fast. Designating national parks is much more difficult and much slower....


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

ok, raise your hand if you went landscaping in the national parks during the government shut down.

i see a few hands back there.>>O


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## olibooger (Feb 13, 2019)

Been following a while.

My hand is in with taxidermist.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

If WtoU ever got 'his way',
Almost NO one would ever see this place!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

And that would be a shame.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> And that would be a shame.


No. It would keep the mountain much more pristine and fisheries viable. Those willing to hike or use horses would still have an awesome mountain to visit. As is, the top is being destroyed by ATVs, trucks, and people who just don't care enough to protect what is up there. That is a shame.

Let's put your "Almost NO one would ever see this place!" thought into perspective...

...by way of comparison, Utah's highest point--King's Peak--sees over an estimated 5,000 visitors on a yearly basis despite the approximately 29-mile hike required to get there through wilderness. Bluebell Knoll, on the other hand, if the Boulder Top were closed (and no plan is in place to close it despite my dream), it would be an approximately 10-12-mile roundtrip hike from the current gate below the rim.

What is a shame is that so many people believe we need a motorized vehicle to see great things these days...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here is why I disagree with your above statement WtoU.

I have a 21 year old son that has battled bone disease his entire life.
Couldn't possibly walk over a 1/2 mile.
For that reason alone Im not a fan of wilderness and road closures.

Heck, I have the Aquarius Ranger Station reserved again this summer and early fall for several days.
And yes, both my boys will be there enjoying the Boulder Top.......

This will be my 35th year going there.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I get it....it sucks that some people can't hike because of physical limitations. But, it sucks even more when the few ruin it for everybody who can. The perfect examples up there are Chuck's lake and Raft lake. The road to Chuck's was closed down a number of years ago because the road became the perfect wash for silt down to the lake. Chuck's has difficulty overwintering fish consistently because of the added silt to the lake. Sadly, the road closure came too late and after the damage had been done. Thankfully, though, it still overwinters fish albeit not consistently. Raft lake still has a road right up to it and work has been done to minimize the amount of silt flowing down the road to the lake. However, many idiots on ATVs love to drive around the rocks and up the shoreline and around the lake. So, even though the road still accesses the lake all the way up to the shoreline on the north end. People still feel the need to drive all the way around the lake to access the other end. By doing so, they are creating a new road that leads right up to and through the marshy area where run off runs into the lake from up above and on the legal road that exists. In other words, they are exacerbating the amount of silt running into the reservoir. A long time ago, the main road into Raft lake came in closer to the south end...that road was changed to help with the siltation. Not coincidentally, back in the 70s and maybe even 80s that lake was known for growing large cutthroat trout. But, cutthroat cannot survive the winters anymore and it is a marginal brook trout/grayling fishery because of consistent overwintering problems. It is sad to me that I will most likely never see big cutts swim that lake again. And, why? Because people are destroying the fishery with their vehicles. Those are only two of a number of examples that I could list from that area...

....so, as sad as it may be that some people--like your son--could not physically hike up there and visit those places with a closure, it would certainly help save what we have for future generations.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> If WtoU ever got 'his way',
> Almost NO one would ever see this place!


Great example. Pull that spot up on Google Earth, and look at all the ATV tracks driving right up to the top of Bluebell! Why??


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Lets make it a even playing field. 

No horses or pack animals either. 

You want to go into the wilderness areas then do like us that don't own or want to own pack animals and just hoof it. Bring in what you want to bring in on your back.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I'm good with that. ^^


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

PBH said:


> Great example. Pull that spot up on Google Earth, and look at all the ATV tracks driving right up to the top of Bluebell! Why??


Scroll over to Raft lake from Bluebell and look at the two tracks heading around Raft to the washes and you can literally see all the silt running in there from the illegal roads.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

PBH said:


> I'm good with that. ^^


Bet your not 'good with that' when you are 60......


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Yeah, I think he would be because at least then his kids can experience it a preserved state and not totally ruined. That's how I feel. I hope that my kids and their kids will be able to go up and fish Raft lake when they are my age and that it hasn't been totally ruined by irresponsible ATVers.

Again, I would want to close that whole Boulder top to motorized vehicles even knowing full well that I would probably never visit some places again in my life.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That is your choice but not others.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Thing is, as I'm knocking on the door of 50, I realize that I can't do the same things physically that I could do when I was 18, or even 30. And I shouldn't expect to. Windows of adventure open and close as we go through the stages and obligations of life. 

Now that said, the thing that a share of the motorheads out there don't realize, is that their irresponsible use of their wheelers destroys the environment. They are selfish, inconsiderate, and abusive of the world they claim to enjoy. And it is that behavior that ruins things to the point that any motorized access is cut off to protect the resources from further destruction. And that takes away motorized access from those that don't/won't abuse it. 10% ruin it for the other 90%.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

And once again it comes down the the enforcement of the laws for riding ATV's or even trucks or other vehicles off of the road. 

I will have to admit that when I was on the Boulder Top quite a bit years ago I never did see anyone from the Forest Service up there checking anything out.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Critter said:


> And once again it comes down the the enforcement of the laws for riding ATV's or even trucks or other vehicles off of the road.
> 
> I will have to admit that when I was on the Boulder Top quite a bit years ago I never did see anyone from the Forest Service up there checking anything out.


This is why it's called the tragedy of the commons. Certain individuals cannot police themselves and the rest of us depend on the USFS or some other agency to enforce the rules. When said agency is absent, said rules are not enforced. Hence, we ALL lose when people destroy places. There are hundreds of places I'll never get to see in this incredible world, but it behooves me to respect and care for the places that I do get to see - so that other generations will have the opportunity to enjoy them as well.

Why is Yellowstone so amazing?!? Because it's protected. Think what Yellowstone would become without all the rules and regulations ...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

And look at the amount of presence that the US Park Service has in Yellowstone. 

You step off of the boardwalk and they are there telling you to get back onto it. Stop and look at the animals in the meadows and they are there telling you to move on. 

I haven't tried it but I wonder if you could even bring in a ATV into Yellowstone in the back of a pickup, but I am betting that you would have some problems one way or the other if you tried.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Critter said:


> Lets make it a even playing field.
> 
> No horses or pack animals either.
> 
> You want to go into the wilderness areas then do like us that don't own or want to own pack animals and just hoof it. Bring in what you want to bring in on your back.


Sounds good to me.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I think it's all about whoever uses the woods, that ALL participants, be it on foot, horse, ATV, or whatever do so in a RESPONSIBLE manner. 


Every one of us need to be stewards of our outdoor enjoyment. 


I see so much trash along the sides of the roads. Should they outlaw Cars and Trucks from going on them because people "toss it out the window"? 


I guess we need to take ownership for our activities.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> And once again it comes down the the enforcement of the laws for riding ATV's or even trucks or other vehicles off of the road.
> 
> I will have to admit that when I was on the Boulder Top quite a bit years ago I never did see anyone from the Forest Service up there checking anything out.


No, it doesn't just come down to the enforcement of the laws we already have. Part of the problem with Boulder top is that the roads shouldn't be there in the first place. Going clear back to 1997 when the problem of siltation and roads first began to be discussed, it was known that "Presently many of the lakes on Boulder Top' are receiving excessive amounts of sediment *from unplanned, poorly located, or substandard roads.* As the 'lakes' fill with sediment, the water depth and oxygen capacity of the lake decreases. The effect is a gradual decline in the lakes ability to overwinter fish. Eventually, no fish will be able to survive from one year to the next and annual stocking, will be necessary to maintain the fishery. As a result, anglers will experience less success, fish will be smaller, and there will likely be lakes that will no longer provide a fishery. This is a serious concern that must be addressed as winter kill appears to be occurring at a greater "frequency than in the past."

Additionally, "Much of the sediment problem associated with roads on the Boulder Top is the result of improper location and design. Many roads have resulted' from cross country travel rather than having been properly
located and'designed to facilitate .anticipated traffic and drainage. To fix the existing problems would, in many cases, require expensive reconstruction and/or complete relocation. Due to the way roads have evolved on the Boulder Top, most consist of trenched sections that trap and confined corridors which accelerate sediment transport. The use of runoff breaks
(intercepting dips, water bats, furrow ditches, etc.) would alleviate this problem somewhat by reducing the transport distance of the confined runoff, but would result in increased maintenance needs to keep the facilities in proper functioning condition. The terrain on much of the Boulder Top is basically flat, resulting in the need for relatively long flair ditches etc. to carry the runoff away from the roads. These ditches etc~have a tendency to silt in, thus requiring frequent maintenance to keep them functioning
properly."

In other words, unless more roads on Boulder top are closed down, the money to continually address and fix the problems that roads are creating is simply not there. Keeping roads on that top will--regardless of whether people obey or do not obey the current laws--will result in many lakes simply losing their ability to overwinter fish. The USFS and UDWR knew this over 20 years ago....and yet, the problem continues and worsens. The same analysis I am quoting even states that one expected impact of improving the roads--which did happen--was increased use and increased illegal off-road traveling--which also did happen.

To me, it is the perfect example of our poor stewardship of an awesome place! And, it saddens me.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

There was talk down on Boulder in the 80s about winter kill fish on those lakes.
Nothing new.
And Im sure the sediments make it worse.
Here's the thing,
Everything is ALWAYS changing.

There will be flying ATVS in the future WtoU....problem solved.
LOL.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

That's a stupid argument Goofy...because things change we should just allow the destruction? Really?

The stupid thing is that some of those lakes were considered "trophy" lakes in the 80s and now they are marginal fisheries at best. Why? Because of what WE as people are doing. This isn't climate change that we are talking about here...this is clear black and white human-caused damage. Do you really think we should just blow it off as "change?"

Hell, by that kind of talk why should we limit any big game tags...by the way, there was also talk clear back in the 80s of closing down the roads up top--all of them!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Critter said:


> And once again it comes down the the enforcement of the laws for riding ATV's or even trucks or other vehicles off of the road.
> 
> I will have to admit that when I was on the Boulder Top quite a bit years ago I never did see anyone from the Forest Service up there checking anything out.


And the question is, WHY? Why does it have to come down to that? Why can't those of us that enjoy the outdoors simply be responsible, considerate and respectful of the very resource we enjoy and claim to fight to conserve for our posterity? Because we are selfish pricks that only care about what we get. We never stop to think that what we get takes away from others and ourselves as well.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

MadHunter said:


> And the question is, WHY? Why does it have to come down to that? Why can't those of us that enjoy the outdoors simply be responsible, considerate and respectful of the very resource we enjoy and claim to fight to conserve for our posterity? Because we are selfish pricks that only care about what we get. We never stop to think that what we get takes away from others and ourselves as well.


Because there are those out there that need someone in authority to sit them down and make them pay a penalty for what they are doing.

Why do we have cops that enforce the speed limit?
Why do we have F&G people that will ticket you for a over limit of fish?
Why do we have any laws on the books that we must obey with people that see that we obey them?

Why can't we all just get along by obeying the laws that are there.

I'd like a requirement that there needs to be a license on ATV's that can be read instead of just a 4"x4" sticker that at times can't be read even when close enough to do it. Perhaps if we did that and a few of us reported those that are cutting trails or making roads those that are doing these things will get the message and stay on the roads and trails where they are suppose to be.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's another thought.
In my observations, most of the ATV/OHV damage Is being done by NON hunters.
Even on Boulder, recreational folks are doing 95% of the damage...

Smith's reservoir up Lake Fork,
100% destroyed by recreational riders. Not hunters.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Here's another thought.
> In my observations, most of the ATV/OHV damage Is being done by NON hunters.
> Even on Boulder, recreational folks are doing 95% of the damage...
> 
> ...


This ^^.

finally, something we can agree on.

so, let's run with this. Allow hunters ONLY to retrieve lawfully taken game, but restrict them to keep ATVs on legal roads and trails.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

That is EXACTLY what is talked about in the initial post, 12 pages ago.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> That is EXACTLY what is talked about in the initial post, 12 pages ago.


The question still remains. If a road is there but is now closed is it legal to use it?

I say no, stay off of it.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I think you answered the question yourself--if the road has been closed, it is illegal to use.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Perhaps it's answered to you and me. However, there are folks in the previous 12 pages that argue they should be allowed to travel it.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I haven't read where anyone said that if a road is closed that then they can use it. 

A closed road is a closed road and shouldn't be ridden on weather any of us like it or not.

I have said that I know of some elk hunters that use a closed road during the elk hunts.


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