# Muzzleloader Newb.. Please Help.



## adamb

Big thanks to MuscleWhitefish for helping me out some already!

A little background.. I've hunted waterfowl since I was 15, drew my first general season rifle deer tag when I was a senior in high school, had no idea what I was doing that fall.. Haha. After I got back from my mission last year, I drew another rifle deer tag, harvested a little 2x2 that was a whole lot of fun with help from Mardell Nelson. 

Now this year, my first choice tag was a Any Legal Weapon GS Buck. Ended up getting my second choice Muzzleloader! I also had my girlfriend do Trial Hunter Course so she could apply for a tag in time. She snagged a Muzzy tag as well! Now she will do the Hunter's Safety course next month!

Now... I am really excited to get into muzzleloader hunting! But.. I know nothing about them really.. Any tips or pointer would help out a whole lot! Where do I start?? Haha. I probably shouldn't spend too much.. She wouldn't be very happy about that, even though she will most likely be using mine to take her deer..


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## Caddis-n-Cutts

The best "bang for your "buck"" (see what I did there...twice?) is hands down the CVA Optima. Check out muzzle-loaders.com I think they have them for $260.00 I'd buy now instead of waiting for the fall sales so you will have plenty of time to practice and find a load your gun likes to shoot. I would offer to give you my old ML, but I'd better keep it for my son to use in a few years. I shot Power Belts out of my old gun and had so-so results (killed 2 deer with them). I'm switching to 290 grain Barnes T-EZ for my new setup.


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## nocturnalenemy

Decide on a budget (included all your setup: gun, projectiles, powder, accessories, optics) find a gun and then spend the summer shooting and finding the load your gun likes. The muzzy hunt is super fun and not nearly as crowded as the rifle.

I bought my first muzzy last year. I really love the break action with a quickly removable breech plug. It makes cleaning the gun a breeze. Most of the new guns have these and for me it's a make-or-break feature. If you hate cleaning it, you'll likely shoot it less and you need all the practice you can get.


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## DallanC

You should read this, its got tons of good info. BlueElk was quite a guy, very knowledgeable and loved to share his passion. I archived this both to help others, and to pay tribute to BlueElk himself.

http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23

-DallanC


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## utahgolf

Caddis-n-Cutts said:


> The best "bang for your "buck"" (see what I did there...twice?) is hands down the CVA Optima. Check out muzzle-loaders.com I think they have them for $260.00 I'd buy now instead of waiting for the fall sales so you will have plenty of time to practice and find a load your gun likes to shoot. I would offer to give you my old ML, but I'd better keep it for my son to use in a few years. I shot Power Belts out of my old gun and had so-so results (killed 2 deer with them). I'm switching to 290 grain Barnes T-EZ for my new setup.


^^^^^ 
This!


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## MuscleWhitefish

This is another great resource http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2h.muzzleloader.htm.

Just to add some things to the conservation early.

Muzzleloader - Go to Cabela's or Sportman's and shoulder a few. You want a gun that feels great in your hands. Brands will be a personal preference (Mine is TC or CVA). I can't discount Traditions all the way even though my pursuit LT dislikes everything, I put down the barrel. I'm sure the Vortek line is a good gun. I would also recommend stainless or Nitride/Weather Shield protection.

Powders - I think Blackhorn is by far the best, but it does have flaws especially if the breach plug is clogged or magnum primers aren't used. Tripple 7's, Pyrodex, White Hots will do the job also, but they will require cleaning in between shot(s). Loose powders pack down more compact which is better for accuracy, but the difference is negligible with a well fitted bullet.

Primers - With Blackhorn I like CCI 209M, but I'm sure Federal and Winchester Mangum 209 primers will work.

Projectiles - Each gun will like a different bullet. I have had the best luck with Hornady SST or FPB. Barnes, TC, and Thor also make great bullets. I dislike Powerbelts, but a lot of people kill game with them. Sabots can be hard to load at times, but are usually a bit more accurate. Conicals are easier to load, but are slower. It really doesn't matter which bullet you use as long as you can shoot it accurately.

Optics - I like the Leupold Prismatic 1x optic with the etched reticle, but it is $600 bucks. You can go open sites, which is fun - takes a lot of practice. As far as 1x optics go, Crosshairs can cover the entire target and red dots can be pretty annoying on the eyes. You will have to try each and see what you like. It's a personal preference.

Accessories - Speed Loaders and Cleaning Kits are a must. Good thing, that both of them are reasonable in price. Anything else is just nice to have.

Have a good hunt.


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## DallanC

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Powders - I think Blackhorn is by far the best, but it does have flaws especially if the breach plug is clogged or magnum primers aren't used. Tripple 7's, Pyrodex, White Hots will do the job also, but they will require cleaning in between shot(s). Loose powders pack down more compact which is better for accuracy, but the difference is negligible with a well fitted bullet.


Blackhorn 209 requires a closed breech, fully supported primer. I wanted to try it in my Remington 700ML's but as they aren't fully supported, its strongly not advised. I looked into a modification kit for the Rem700ML that makes it BH209 capable but it was pretty expensive, and would make the gun illegal in Idaho and CO.

Basically any Idaho or Colorado legal muzzleloader cant use BH209 (those have exposed ignitions, a no-go with BH209).

-DallanC


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## waspocrew

For someone starting out, triple seven pellets make things pretty easy. I've gotten such good results with them out of my optima, I've never seen a reason to switch to loose powder. Maybe I will someday just for kicks. Muzzy hunts are a blast.


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## MuscleWhitefish

DallanC said:


> Blackhorn 209 requires a closed breech, fully supported primer. I wanted to try it in my Remington 700ML's but as they aren't fully supported, its strongly not advised. I looked into a modification kit for the Rem700ML that makes it BH209 capable but it was pretty expensive, and would make the gun illegal in Idaho and CO.
> 
> Basically any Idaho or Colorado legal muzzleloader cant use BH209 (those have exposed ignitions, a no-go with BH209).
> 
> -DallanC


I think you mean't Oregon or Washington, rather than Colorado.

*Colorado Rules:*

"Muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets, provided the minimum caliber shall be forty (.40) for all big game except elk and moose. The minimum caliber for elk and moose shall be fifty (.50). All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets from forty (.40) caliber through fifty (.50) caliber must use a bullet of at least 170 grains in weight. All muzzle-loading rifles and smoothbore muskets greater than fifty (.50) caliber must use bullets of at least 210 grains in weight."

a. During the muzzle-loading firearms seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose only lawful muzzle-loaders and smoothbore muskets may be used by muzzle-loading license holders. 
b. During the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and moose the following additional restrictions apply: 
1.Propellent/Powders: The use of pelletized powder systems and smokeless powder are prohibited. 
2. Projectiles: Sabots are prohibited. For the purposes of this regulation cloth patches are not sabots. 
3. Loading: Firearms must load from the muzzle. Firearms, which can be loaded from the breech, are prohibited. 
4. Sights: Any muzzle-loading rifle or smoothbore musket with any sighting device other than open or "iron" sights is prohibited. 
5. Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or attached to the muzzle-loading firearm.

*Idaho Rules:*

In any hunt, including general any-weapon seasons and short-range hunts, it is unlawful to pursue or kill big game animals with any muzzleloading rifle or musket that is less than .45 caliber for deer, pronghorn, mountain lion or gray wolf; or is less than .50 caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat or black bear. Muzzleloader-Only Season Any person hunting in a muzzleloader-only season, including controlled hunts, must have in their possession a license with a muzzleloader permit validation. During a muzzleloader-only season, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal with any firearm, muzzleloading pistol, or weapon other than a muzzleloading rifle or musket. In addition, the muzzleloading rifle or musket must be: Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle. Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any electronics are prohibited. Except hunters with a visual disability may apply for a permit to use no magnifying scopes. Loaded only with loose black powder, loose Pyrodex, or other loose synthetic black powder. Pelletized powders are prohibited."

"Muzzleloaders equipped with a single or double barrel. Loaded with a projectile that is within .010 inch of the bore diameter. Sabots are prohibited. Loaded with a patched round ball or conical non-jacketed projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy. Equipped only with a flint, percussion cap or musket cap. 209 primers are prohibited. Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is ****ed and ready to fire."

*Oregon Rules:*

"Scopes (permanent and detachable), and sights that use batteries, artificial light or energy are not allowed during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, except for visually impaired hunters who have a visual acuity of 20/200 with lenses or visual field of 20 degrees. Open and peep sights made from alloys, plastic, or other materials that do not have the properties described above are legal sights. Fiber optics and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal."

"It is illegal to hunt with non-lead bullets, jacketed bullets, sabots and bullets with plastic or synthetic bases during muzzleloader only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Conical lead or lead alloy bullets with a length that does not exceed twice the diameter and lead or lead alloy round balls used with cloth, paper or felt patches are allowed."

"It is illegal to hunt with pelletized powders or propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Granular (loose) black powder and black powder substitutes are the only legal propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only."

"Muzzleloading firearms with revolving actions are prohibited during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only."

"For muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only, the muzzleloader must have an open ignition."

*Washington Rules: *

"Definitions of a Muzzleloader: A firearm that is loaded from the muzzle and uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in all muzzleloading firearms. A muzzleloading firearm shall be considered loaded if a powder charge and a projectile, either shot or single projectile are in the barrel and the barrel or breech is capped or primed. It is unlawful to hunt wildlife using a muzzleloading firearm that does not meet the following specifications. A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle must have a single or double barrel, rifled or smooth-bored A muzzleloading shotgun or rifle used for deer must be 40 caliber or larger Buckshot size #1 or larger may be used in a smoothbore of 60 caliber or larger for deer. A muzzleloading shotgun, rifle, or handgun used for all other big game must be 45 caliber or larger. Persons lawfully hunting small game with a double barrel, muzzleloading shotgun may keep both barrels loaded. A muzzleloading handgun must have a single or double barrel of at least eight inches, must be rifled, and must be capable of being loaded with forty-five grains or more of black powder or black powder substitute per the manufacturer's recommendations. A muzzleloading handgun used for big game must be 45 caliber or larger. A handgun designed to be used with black powder; including black powder percussion revolvers, can be used to hunt forest grouse, cottontail rabbits, and snowshoe hares. In addition to the above requirements, it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading-hunting season using a firearm that does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader. As in the past sabots are allowed Any type of projectile is allowed. A modern handgun may be carried for personal protection Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big game or dispatch wounded big game during a big game hunting season for muzzleloading firearms a Ignition is to be wheel lock, matchlock, flintlock, or percussion using original style percussion caps that fit on the nipple and are exposed to the eather "Exposed to the weather" means the percussion cap or the frizzen must be visible and not capable of being enclosed by an integral part of the weapon proper Primers designed to be used in modern cartridges are not legal. Sights must be open, peep, or of other open sight design Fiber optic sights are legal Telescopic sights or sights containing glass are prohibited It is unlawful to have any electrical device or equipment attached to a muzzleloading firearm while hunting. Those persons lawfully hunting Big-game with a double barrel muzzleloader may only keep one barrel loaded. Hunters with disabilities who meet the definition of being visually impaired in WAC 232-12-828 may receive a special use permit that would allow the use of scopes or other visual aids. A disabled hunter permit holder in possession of a special use permit that allows the use of a scope or visual aid may hunt game birds or game animals during muzzleloader seasons. Muzzleloading firearms used during a modern firearm season are not required to meet ignition, sight, or double barrel restrictions."

TLDR

In Colorado you can use inlines and in Idaho/Washington/Oregon you have to use the northwest version of inlines or traditional (Which is not compatible with BH209).


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## MuscleWhitefish

waspocrew said:


> For someone starting out, triple seven pellets make things pretty easy. I've gotten such good results with them out of my optima, I've never seen a reason to switch to loose powder. Maybe I will someday just for kicks. Muzzy hunts are a blast.


Once you go Blackhorn, you never go back. :mrgreen:

The advantage of loose powder is like the advantage of reloading your own shells. You can perfect a load, but if you gun shoots great there is nothing wrong with keeping a good thing going.


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## DallanC

Ah, I stand corrected on CO. Maybe it was a proposed rule I read vs the actual implementation. Either way, good to know.


-DallanC


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## Blackie6

Cva makes a quality muzzeloader for about any budget. 
Go to cabelas and take a look through a few scopes and see what you like. I shot a red dot last year, but am switching over to the vortex 1x this year. 
Also, don't make the same mistake I did when I first got into muzzleloading and not clean your gun. Make sure too clean it after every time you go out. That black powder will eat your gun.


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## manysteps

I can't say much about inlines since I've been shooting sidelocks since I was old enough to hold one to my shoulder.

That said, my opinion on load would be to use loose powder, and get ready to spend more on practice (learning, learning what your gun likes, bullets, etc) than you will on the actual gun.

You don't get to buy consistent factory loads, and EVERY gun is different... even the same make/model... Try power belts, try every type of bullet there is... and find the powder/bullet combination that your chosen gun groups best with.

Last but not least, once you've found what it likes, look at the ballistics, and be real when it comes to the range you can shoot at... a 285 grain bullet isn't going to be realistic over 100 yards (my opinion, but ballistics don't lie either)


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## waspocrew

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Once you go Blackhorn, you never go back. :mrgreen:


That's what I'm afraid of! I believe it though - Blackhorn is very popular here in Virginia. Maybe I'll give it a try this season!


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## adamb

Thanks everyone for the advice, it really means a ton! 

So I stopped by Sportsman's in Riverdale on my way home from work. These are the guns that they recommended to me out of the ones they had in stock.

I think the Encore FX felt the best shouldered, but I'm not sure if my wallet likes the price that much.. 

The coating on the fore-end of the stock on the CVA's were coming off from people handling. Is that something anyone else is experiencing with their CVA's? Or should I not worry about that..


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## adamb

Anyone know of a particular gun store with a knowledgeable muzzleloader guy behind the counter?


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## waspocrew

AdamBrewer said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice, it really means a ton!
> 
> So I stopped by Sportsman's in Riverdale on my way home from work. These are the guns that they recommended to me out of the ones they had in stock.
> 
> I think the Encore FX felt the best shouldered, but I'm not sure if my wallet likes the price that much..
> 
> The coating on the fore-end of the stock on the CVA's were coming off from people handling. Is that something anyone else is experiencing with their CVA's? Or should I not worry about that..


I'd tell you to get the rifle that feels most comfortable and you'd be most excited about. That being said, I've never had issues with the finish wearing on my Optima. It's a tough one to beat for the price. I wanted to start with a "cheaper" muzzleloader to make sure I liked it before I went with a more expensive one. The Optima has definitely exceeded my expectations.


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## Caddis-n-Cutts

AdamBrewer said:


> Anyone know of a particular gun store with a knowledgeable muzzleloader guy behind the counter?


Kents near 5 points in Harrisville has some good guys that are willing to help you out!


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## MuscleWhitefish

AdamBrewer said:


> Thanks everyone for the advice, it really means a ton!
> 
> So I stopped by Sportsman's in Riverdale on my way home from work. These are the guns that they recommended to me out of the ones they had in stock.
> 
> I think the Encore FX felt the best shouldered, but I'm not sure if my wallet likes the price that much..
> 
> The coating on the fore-end of the stock on the CVA's were coming off from people handling. Is that something anyone else is experiencing with their CVA's? Or should I not worry about that..


I don't think it is a huge deal with the CVA's, it is just personal preference.

That Accura picture you posted is tempting me.

Accura has a promise that if it is not the most accurate gun that you have ever shot they will give you your money back and I kind of want to put it to the test.

That Triumph seems a little over priced.

http://www.muzzle-loaders.com/muzzleloader-rifles.php is a good resource for price.

As far as someone to talk to about Muzzleloaders, I think your best bet would be on-line actually.

I have talked to Cabela's staff and Sportman's staff, but they for the most part have very little idea about muzzleloading (I'm sure there is exceptions) .

Just talking to people that muzzle-load hunt whether it is online or preferably in person.

Also, Youtube videos may be a resource especially when it comes to learning the do's and don'ts of cleaning. You can also check out what each company is stating that makes their rifle better than the next. There are a bunch of how-to videos too.


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## Dahlmer

AdamBrewer said:


> Anyone know of a particular gun store with a knowledgeable muzzleloader guy behind the counter?


I hope I don't get grief for referring to another forum, but there is a very active blackpowder forum at huntingnet.com. Guys that shoot everything from traditional to modern. Most are pretty good dudes and more than happy to share what is working for them. You can also plow through the archives and get a lot of good info.


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## adamb

I went to Kent's, Smith and Edward's, and Sportsman's again today. Kent's and S&E only carry T/C and Knight. Sportsman's carries T/C, CVA, and Knight. 

I think I have narrowed it down to the T/C Triumph black synthetic stock with weather guard for $450 or the CVA Accura V2 black synthetic stock SS for $350.

I'm stuck between the two... :neutral: I don't know what to do! haha. My budget says Accura, but I might like some things on the Triumph just a little, but then there are some other things that I don't like it about it as well..

Someone pick for me??! ;-)

I have been reading online about the two different ML's. One thing that popped up a couple times was that the Accura V2 wouldn't take the 209 Powder very well.. Is that still a concern and will I have to get a different breech plug if I want to use the powder?


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## DallanC

Whatever you have interests in, google the name of it and the key word "problems" or "issues". See what other owners are running up against.

Accura's look interesting, I was looking to get my boy one when a member here offered me a used 700ML, which I couldn't jump on fast enough. Miserable to clean but man to those things shoot like none-other.

-DallanC


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## derekp1999

There is just something about the heavy sulfuric smell of that blue smoke after it pours out barrel... it's magic on the mountainside! I never understood how guys could just go and shoot for fun until I shot a muzzleloader.

Whichever gun you decide to go with spend lots of time at the range, they are fussy initially but once you figure them out things should fall into place nicely.

I have taken an "economical" (read: cheap) approach to my muzzleloader hunting and have been perfectly satisfied with my setup. I found a Remington Genesis at Cabela's several years back with a mail in rebate that brought the price to below $100. I shoot Pyrodex pellets because that is what Wal-Mart carries and in November after the general elk muzzleloader hunts close they take a couple bucks off and clearance them out. This past year I got some good advice that it is more cost effective to buy the bullets and sabots separately instead of the pre-matched packages. I buy the yellow TC Super Glide sabots in the 50 pack ($8.99) and boxes of the 45 caliber bullets for handgun reloading. I have found that my gun likes the 300gr Hornady XTP-MAG ($20.99/box of 50). So that gets me 50 complete bullets for $30... if I were to buy the same bulelts in the prematched packages I'd pay $15.99 for 20 bullets. The savings isn't huge but every little bit helps. Over the long run of lots of practicing it adds up and if you have a preferred bullet manufacturer you should be able find something from them in a 45 caliber handgun bullet. I put a Traditions 1x scope on my gun last year for under $50 and wonder why I waited so log to do so!

1.4" at 100 yards and 3.8" at 200 yards is good enough for me... and guys that take lots of time to do some load workup do better than that.


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## adamb

I have finally decided to go with the CVA Accura! I went to the Riverdale Sportsman's to purchase it this morning before work, but they only had the display available to purchase.. So I'll be making a trip to Midvale here shortly if I can get off early from work! 

I decided on the Accura due to the ease of break and close of the barrel. I really liked the wider and lighter feel of the Triumph, but the more I handled the Accura I began to like it as well. I also figured the weight of the Accura might help a little with the recoil when my girlfriend shoots it. The price of Accura is a bonus as well! She won't be able to get AS mad at me if I save an extra $100 or so.. :shock:

Thanks for the help everyone!

If any Accura owners have any load tips that would be awesome!

Also... Tools for like a "starter kit" or checklist for random things I will need.

I better hide all of my receipts from her :mrgreen:


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## DallanC

Drop it down to 50 or 60 grns when she shoots it at the range.


-DallanC


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## goosefreak

I shoot the CVA Accura V2 with a Vortex crossfireII scope and so far I like it!
I'm new to Muzzys too but, like you I did TONS of research on all the brands. I chose the CVA because it felt the best in my shoulder. I shot it a little last year when I bought it, and quite a bit this year. i'm still working out some fine tuning with it but, the last time I shot it (a month ago) I was hitting 2" high at 100 yards and about 8" low at 200 yards.
one would say that my gun is driving tacks, but at 200 yards my bullet impact was like I said 8" low and 4" right (both shots side by side) so my focus now it to bring my bullet back to the left just a touch and it should be even more of a killer than it is now.
(maybe I just pulled my shots right) 

I shoot 110gr of BlackHorn 209 with a 290gr Barnes TMZ


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## justismi28

I have shot the Accura V2 for a couple years now. It isn't the lightest gun, but I'm willing to carry an extra few oz to be comfortable making a shot. I shot and shouldered quite a few muzzleloaders when I was looking a few years back and found the Accura fit me best from any position I could get in. (got some strange looks testing prone at cabelas) But in the end I was happy. 
With the way the Accura V2 sits, you're going to want a scope of some sort. Even CVA will tell you it wasn't designed with open sites in mind. 
I shoot blackhorn simply because I hate swabbing my barrel at the range and having to worry about cleaning when I'm on the hill. That said it shot ok with two t7 pellets and hornady sst in my initial load development. Eventually I stuck with BH209 as this will be a hunting gun. When I shot it a couple weeks ago I was using 110 gr of BH with a Barnes 250gr TEZ and a black harvester sabot and a Winchester 209(non magnum) primer. With my 1x I was averaging about a 1.5" group at 100 yds, 5" groups at 200 and I (not the load) opened my only group at 300 up to 13". 
I have the BH primer, so I don't feel the need to use a magnum primer. Just get a #32 drill bit and clean the carbon from the flash channel.(I've never been a fan of the magnum primers but that's a different discussion). People often overlook the primer when trying to get the best group possible. 
The best tip that anyone ever gave me, is to get out and shoot. Take different options (powders, primers, and bullets), and enjoy the experience.

If you don't want to do your own work or put in the time, this is probably a good option. They also have some books with ballistic data on different loads.
http://www.maxmuzzleloader.com/productsDVDaccura.html


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## utahgolf

AdamBrewer said:


> I have finally decided to go with the CVA Accura! I went to the Riverdale Sportsman's to purchase it this morning before work, but they only had the display available to purchase.. So I'll be making a trip to Midvale here shortly if I can get off early from work!
> 
> I decided on the Accura due to the ease of break and close of the barrel. I really liked the wider and lighter feel of the Triumph, but the more I handled the Accura I began to like it as well. I also figured the weight of the Accura might help a little with the recoil when my girlfriend shoots it. The price of Accura is a bonus as well! She won't be able to get AS mad at me if I save an extra $100 or so.. :shock:
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone!
> 
> If any Accura owners have any load tips that would be awesome!
> 
> Also... Tools for like a "starter kit" or checklist for random things I will need.
> 
> I better hide all of my receipts from her :mrgreen:


If you wanna go the easy route with pellets, my buddy shoots an accura and shoots 100 grains of triple 7 pellets and a 290 grain barnes tez....I do the same out of my optima. I get 1-2 inch groupings at a 100 yards and I am not the best trigger squeezer either. Growing up shooting nothing but a shotgun, ruined me for perfect groupings.


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## RandomElk16

You had it narrowed to 2 great guns, and the Accura V2 is excellent for the price!

If you are interested in shooting blackhorn, which that gun loves, be sure to jump on their site and order the breech made for it. 

The Vortex sits great on that gun, as mentioned by someone in this thread (I skimmed through it). I know guys love traditional, but as soon as I switched to a nice inline with a good optic, success rates went up! 

When I get a chance I will look through my muzzleloader tackle box and see what exactly my kit has. I keep more than most guys, but muzzleloaders sometimes require more attention than other firearms.


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## adamb

RandomElk16 said:


> If you are interested in shooting blackhorn, which that gun loves, be sure to jump on their site and order the breech made for it.


Is there a big difference between these three? Or should I just go with the cheapest one?

http://muzzle-loaders.com/accessories/breech-plugs/blackhorn-209-breech-plug.php

http://cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=177

https://www.westernpowders.com/blackhorn209?product_id=147


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## justismi28

They are most likely the same. I know the one direct from CVA and Western Powders are the same. You could also look at cabelas. I picked mine up from them when they had it in stock.
I do like the kit Western Powders sends with. They give you an idea of the size of o-ring to get for a better primer seal. By eliminating blowback you have an easier time cleaning, but more importantly you get a consistent flame and pressure to the powder. 
The drill bit is also very nice. A clean, smooth flash channel again produces consistent flame and pressure, which over the course of a shooting session keeps accuracy consistent. (I just picked my bit up from Harbor Freight and made a quick tape handle however.)
One other option is to look on amazon if you have prime. Free shipping and probably a comparable price.


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## RandomElk16

AdamBrewer said:


> Is there a big difference between these three? Or should I just go with the cheapest one?
> 
> http://muzzle-loaders.com/accessories/breech-plugs/blackhorn-209-breech-plug.php
> 
> http://cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=177
> 
> https://www.westernpowders.com/blackhorn209?product_id=147


Should be the same. Only have experience with the CVA direct one.

EDIT: If you plan on using Blackhorn, buy it now. You won't find it during hunting season.


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## Bo0YaA

Opinions are like...well we all know the end of that sentence, so here's mine. I wouldn't suggest shooting anything but pyrodex in a CVA, and never load it over 100gr but that's just my opinion. As one member stated, once you decide on a brand, look it up on the web for issues or catastrophic failures. Unfortunately, CVA tops both those lists. There are those that love them, swear by they and have loaded a 900gr bullet on top of 400gr of BH 209 and never had an issue but I would never raise a CVA to my shoulder. They claim things have changed since the guns were blowing up left and right but from what others have said, its business as usual and they just pay the lawsuits as them come in. I don't know for sure which is true, but I would rather not take a chance. Some people hate certain bullets, some hate certain rifles brands, some will only shoot a certain brand of bow. Me, I just wont shoot something that has a history like that of the CVA muzzleloader. But like I said, that's just my opinion for what little its worth 

Here is an article written by ChuckHawks.com, Yes I know it was written in 2009 http://www.chuckhawks.com/2009_CVA_update.htm

And a little more info, http://randywakeman.com/DangerousMuzzleloadersAHistory.htm , http://cvaguncases.com/Case___Information_Page.html

I would recommend a TC Encore or a Knight. Ive owned both and both shot very well with magnum loads of 105+ grains of either 777 or BH209


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## justismi28

Remington, Winchester, Beretta, Tikka, Bushmaster, Colt, Glock, Sig, Weatherby

T\C, Knight, CVA

They all have a couple of things in common. They are gun manufacturers, and at some point and time have had to recall guns. The fact of the matter is, CVA did gain a reputation for poor quality in the 90's. They admitted that what they were doing wasn't working, and changed it. (similar to Domino's, the safety mechanism on the Rem700 etc...)

The V2 he purchased has a top quality Bergara Barrel that shouldn't give any issues. 

Just because you have a personal bias...well like you said, "Opinions are like...". No need to try scare tactics with antiquated information on a new ML hunter. He came asking for advice, while you offered some it was also based on antiquated information. BH will perform in his gun without any fear of it blowing up if he follows the recommendations from the manufacturer.

I do have a V2 that I like very much, but I believe I can offer an unbiased opinion as I also have an T\C Encore, Traditions Buckstalker, and am currently saving my pennies for an Knight Ultralite.


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## DallanC

I normally dont get excited about shooting my ML's until late summer... now this thread had me itching to get'em out and make some smoke. It's also got me strongly considering buying and doing the hunter bolt mod on my 700ML ...

-DallanC


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## Bo0YaA

To each their own, not trying to scare anybody, just making sure he has all the facts. Oh and saying "quality Bergara" is like saying "Jumbo Shrimp" or "Awfully Good" its a major oxymoron. Any barrel manufacturer that will not allow you to shoot reloads through their barrels without voiding their warranty, flat scares me. I picked up a "quality Bergara barrel" for my Encore because it was less expensive than the genuine TC version. When it arrived, there was a letter included warning about how the barrel was manufactured to handle factory ammo only, any use of reloaded ammunition would void the warranty.. Wonder why that is? My guess is it wouldn't handle anything higher than the pressures factory ammo produces. I do know I never received any letter of the sort with the numerous TC barrels Ive purchased. You call the information antiquated, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm simply stating, I wouldn't chance it. Personally, I feel it takes more than a V2 stamp on the side of the gun to suggest its any safer than its predecessor, but who knows, maybe not. What I do know is none of the other gun manufactures you listed allowed as many people to be maimed or even killed before they issued a recall. 

Finally, comparing quality gun manufactures like the ones you did to CVA is like comparing a Ferrari to a Hyundai. Again just my honest opinion FWIW ;-)


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## justismi28

It may be comparing Hyndai's to Ferarri's but at the end of the day my sonata gets me to work better than a ferarri does ;-) 

As to your barrel experience, I can't offer insight. But many places follow the CYA (cover your ass) in all aspects of the business. Be it a manufactured good or service. That barrel could very well handle reloads, but they don't want to be liable if an inexperienced reloader puts some bad brass or overloads the shell. Simple disclaimers save companies thousands of dollars a year from people who don't know what they are doing. 

I understand where your coming from, and in a lot of aspects respect your side of the argument. The reputation that CVA received was deserved. They produced a model with sub par material. That said, they addressed the issue just as any of the other companies did. Perhaps not as quick, but they didn't have social media to spread the firestorm to get it back to them. Many accidents occurred with the Rem700 safety mechanism that maimed and killed people, it just wasn't plastered all over the internet. And as you said CVA is still paying for that.

I'm simply just trying to keep OP from getting discouraged in the ML game. Everyone has to start shooting them somewhere and if they weren't raised in it they have a learning curve. My personal experience with my V2 has been awesome, and it's a tack driver as long as I do my part with the right loads.


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## Igottabigone

Here is a recent Chuck Hawks article on the new CVAs.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/cva_accura_mr.html


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## utahgolf

Bo0YaA said:


> I picked up a "quality Bergara barrel" for my Encore because it was less expensive than the genuine TC version. When it arrived, there was a letter included warning about how the barrel was manufactured to handle factory ammo only, any use of reloaded ammunition would void the warranty.. Wonder why that is? My guess is it wouldn't handle anything higher than the pressures factory ammo produces.


or do you think it is because of Liability? some guy reloading and making a mistake and blaming it on the company and filing a lawsuit?


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## Bo0YaA

utahgolf said:


> or do you think it is because of Liability? some guy reloading and making a mistake and blaming it on the company and filing a lawsuit?


It very well could be but again, MGM, Bullberry and standard TC brand barrels do not come with that warning. I just cant help but wonder what they are so afraid of.

With regards to the V2, its popular because its inexpensive, accurate, well marketed and up to date with the current technology (which doesn't necessarily mean safe). I have no experience with it myself so it could be the best deal on the planet for all I know. I'm just not one to test fate anymore than I already do. With my luck I would be the unlucky SOB that bought the one that blows up. That, is why I said to each their own.


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## adamb

Got out a couple days ago for the first time! I only had enough time to shoot 3 times, but it was well worth getting out. It was a lot of fun! I'm hooked. 

I was shooting 250gr SST, 100gr BH, Federal 209A primer, about 40rd target.

The grouping was okay for a rushed shoot. High and to the left a bit. I need to adjust the sight and get back out real soon. I want to see how it does at 100 yards with open sights before I go purchase a scope, Well more of like how I will do... Haha.

Here are a couple photos.


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