# Drill Baby Drill!!



## wyogoob

Oil spill in da Gulf of Mexico!!! Sad, very sad. I vacationed from Grand Isle LA to Gulf Shores to Pensacola FL numerous times; fished the brackish water out of Venice for redfish, speckled trout, even largemouth bass and sac-a-lait. And I worked on a platform about 25 miles from where this happened; 1981. Great country. This spill could take out alot of flora and fauna there.

I think this is worthy of some dialog and sensless drivel typical for early May.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_ ... _explosion

Halliburton, guardians of the planet, had their hands on the drill stem last.


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## lunkerhunter2

Very sad. This could ruin the gulf coast fishery. I saw several interviews last night and it is scary for those people. :?


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## hyperduc

So is this an approved topic? I'd hate for one of the mods to decide it wasn't relevant and just lock this when they were no longer interested in the direction it was going.


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## stillhunterman

> by hyperduc on Sun May 02, 2010 6:40 pm
> 
> So is this an approved topic? I'd hate for one of the mods to decide it wasn't relevant and just lock this when they were no longer interested in the direction it was going.


 :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## wyogoob

Hurricane Katrina leveled the marsh, cleansed it, like what the fires did in Yellowstone. That was 5 years ago. Now it's just beginning to build up a protective understory of dead vegetation, a crucial point in it's recovery. An oil spill couldn't have happened at a worse time.


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## redleg

Obama supports drilling in the gulf and the Left goes nuts, 2 weeks later an oil well blows up. We should examine PETA, ALF and EARTH FIRST!


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## stillhunterman

> by wyogoob on Sun May 02, 2010 8:37 pm
> 
> Hurricane Katrina leveled the marsh, cleansed it, like what the fires did in Yellowstone. That was 5 years ago. Now it's just beginning to build up a protective understory of dead vegetation, a crucial point in it's recovery. An oil spill couldn't have happened at a worse time.


Agreed. This will be nothing short of devistating to the marine ecology and biology all along the gulf coast and/or the florida coastline. Very sad indeed.


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## Al Hansen

hyperduc said:


> So is this an approved topic? I'd hate for one of the mods to decide it wasn't relevant and just lock this when they were no longer interested in the direction it was going.


Why wouldn't it be. It definately has to do with the envirement, hunting and fishing. I can't figure out what the issue would be. Maybe it's because it's not at Willard, Pineview or Jordanelle. :lol:


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## Ryfly

Since Bush was responsible for Katrina doesn't that make Obama responsible for this one? Just sayin'. :wink: 

I also think the oil rig explosion was an inside job by the same frogmen that blew up the levees in New Orleans. :wink: But do you think Obama did it because he hates white people? :? 

:lol:


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## hyperduc

Al Hansen said:


> Why wouldn't it be. It definately has to do with the envirement, hunting and fishing. I can't figure out what the issue would be. Maybe it's because it's not at Willard, Pineview or Jordanelle. :lol:


Just wondering... This topic was started by the same guy who locked a thread in another section because it wasn't related to wildlife. Which is sort of counter intuitive as the thread was started in the "everything else" section under the misc. category. Seems to me that area really would include everything else not related to wildlife specifically.

The subject seems like a thinly veiled shot at the right, which if it were, it would also be a pretty serious case of partisan hypocrisy. I took it as a fairly bold action considering this topic was titled with a rather famous republican quote, and considering the high level of political implications surrounding the handling of this issue I'm rather surprised it was started after the other thread was locked.

Had this been ***Edited - Cheap shot - not called for **** (GaryFish Edit) I wouldn't have much doubt that were the case, but I may be reading far too much into this as this isn't what my experience with wyogoob would lead me to believe.


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## GaryFish

This to me is not a political thing no matter how you slice and dice it. We have thousands of off-shore wells out there. Just like there are thousands of oil tankers on the oceans every day - hauling oil all around the world. With that much going on all the time, problems will occur. It is inevitable. Things happen. I don't post blame on any political entity. Is a broken pipe at an off-shore rig any more a risk than pirates hitting an oil tanker?

My own take is that we (America as a whole - government and industry) need to resolve this as soon as possible. As Goob pointed out, the eco-region of the Mississippi delta is incredibly fragile - especially so soon after Katrina did her thing. This will have an impact on those habitats that support so many species of wildlife, and the downstream effects of the gulf fisheries. That said, the earth is incredibly resilient. Valdez has recovered. St. Helen's has recovered. Yellowstone has recovered. They are a bit different for what happened, but the amazing renewal ability of our planet never ceases to amaze me. I guess this whole thing is a bit far from home for many of us. I Goob has spent time there and it is much more than a story on the news to him. 

What I hope comes from this - continued efforts to tap and utilize our domestic energy resources. And continue our efforts in doing it in a way that can avoid catastrophes such as this. Much is done now, and much will be done in the future. But we can't let it stop us from valid efforts to do it right. 

On the ecology - I think the most interesting thing to hunters from the entire continent will be to see if this has an impact on migratory waterfowl that use this region in the winter time. How will this impact the waterfowl that have nested? What about the destruction of historic ground that the ducks will be looking at this coming winter wondering WTH? Will they land in oil soaked places, or just look for somewhere else to land? How many wintering grounds will be impacted? Square miles? If so, how many? Once things finally hit land and slop up on the shore, really, how much will be impacted? 30 square/miles out of 3,000,000 isn’t a big deal and the wildlife will be fine. I think it will be a while before we really know what the impacts will be.


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## Chaser

Goober, maybe you can explain a little more to me about how this spill happened.

To my understanding, an offshore platform drilling rig exploded, and now the oil it was harvesting (I guess that's the word for it) is spilling out into the Gulf, and has now found its way to the river delta where it will harm a lot of fish, animals, and plant life, as well as the economics of the area. Why is so much oil leaking out? Was it under pressure down there, and now its spewing up to the surface? Is the oil coming out just what was left in the pipes after the explosion? And why can't they cap it off? Wouldn't this have been first priority immediately after human rescue/recovery operations were complete?


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## wyogoob

Chaser said:


> Goober, maybe you can explain a little more to me about how this spill happened.
> 
> To my understanding, an offshore platform drilling rig exploded, and now the oil it was harvesting (I guess that's the word for it) is spilling out into the Gulf, and has now found its way to the river delta where it will harm a lot of fish, animals, and plant life, as well as the economics of the area. Why is so much oil leaking out? Was it under pressure down there, and now its spewing up to the surface? Is the oil coming out just what was left in the pipes after the explosion? And why can't they cap it off? Wouldn't this have been first priority immediately after human rescue/recovery operations were complete?


There are many conflicting stories on how this happened and what actually *did* happen. Survivors of the accident claim the well cementing was faulty, allowing pressurized crude to leak up the riser to the platform and that the blow out preventer on the ocean floor failed to close and stop the release. I also heard the leak was below the blowout preventer; a very bad thing, but this maybe BS (I hope).

This article is a good one:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... 89x8256764

Naturally, oil is found in a solid rock, sandstone-like formation, thousands of feet below the surface. Pressure can be upwards of 5,000 psi. The oil that is leaking out of the breach in the pipes carries sand with it, eroding the pipe and making the leak worse up to the point where the hole in the pipe id full-bore, or the same size as the drill stem.

The well is in 5,100 feet of water. The industry doesn't have much experience dealing with "significant events" like this in that type of harsh enviroment.

I'm not a driller. I was a "Company Man" on rigs before and after the drilling. I worked on fabrication of platform jackets, production equipment, and living quarters on the bank and then putting it all together and starting it up offshore. The drilling was turnkey, we were not allowed to interface with the drilling operation, or slow them down, even though our company was paying their way.


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## wyogoob

So far, attempts to stop the leak have failed.  

They have less than 3 months before the hurricane season arrives. Any hurricane could spell trouble for the Gulf of Mexico's ecosystem, bot on and offshore, with that amount of crude in the water.

Some of the smartest and best problem-solving hands in the country work offshore for BP. 

I am rooting for them.


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## wyogoob

AP just released that hours ago BP claims it has partial control of the leaking oil well. A siphon pipe has been connected from the broken riser line a mile deep in the ocean to an oil tanker ship on the surface.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/16213358


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## lehi

wyogoob said:


> AP just released that hours ago BP claims it has partial control of the leaking oil well. A siphon pipe has been connected from the broken riser line a mile deep in the ocean to an oil tanker ship on the surface.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/16213358


Its a start! I am crossing my fingers that they will have full control over that chaos in the next couple of weeks.


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## wyogoob

The pipe they inserted is only diverting 20% of the leak. 

I was hoping for something better than that.


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## wyogoob

Claims are:
22,000 people working on the spill
2.5 million feet of containment boom
1,150 vessels
785,000 gallons of chemical dispersant used

But they are losing the battle so far. The oil is creeping into the marsh and the Gulf Stream. It's an ecological and enviromental nightmare.

Sometime this week, Amoco BP will attempt a "top kill" to shut off the leaking well. No one knows if it will work. There's been no research, no "drill", to deal with a leak at these depths.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


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## jahan

Did you guys see the report on KUTV news where a guy from Utah believe he has come up with a solution to stop the oil leak?

http://connect2utah.com/news-story?nxd_id=90426

So Goob, with all your experience, do you think it will work?


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## coyoteslayer

Maybe this will wake a few people up so they will allow offshore drilling closer to land.

Jahan it looks like a pretty good idea.


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## Huntoholic

Pressure is the issue. I'm guessing but the pressure is in excess of 2000 psi.


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## wyogoob

Huntoholic said:


> Pressure is the issue. I'm guessing but the pressure is in excess of 2000 psi.


Yes, at 18,000ft deep in 5,000ft of water the formation "static" pressure could be upwards to 10,000 psi. I heard 7,600 psi. The "flowing" pressure coming out of the casing pipe would be somewhat less.


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## wyogoob

jahan said:


> Did you guys see the report on KUTV news where a guy from Utah believe he has come up with a solution to stop the oil leak?
> 
> http://connect2utah.com/news-story?nxd_id=90426
> 
> So Goob, with all your experience, do you think it will work?


No, not enough pressure and getting it in the drill stem without it getting pushed out would be a trick. The piping industry has similar devices that will withstand much pressure, but then again, they are designed to be inserted under zero pressure.


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## Troll

It is my understanding that a pipe has already been inserted into the leaking wellhead pipe. The inserted pipe does not have any type of "doughnut" inflatable seal so there is still leakage.
Pressure of the water is an advantage. Hydrostatic Pressure is produced by the weight of a fluid, acts upon every body in the fluid, and is one and the same in all directions at a particular depth. Its increase rate is .445 psi/foot (1 kg/cm2 per 9.75 meters) when descending in seawter. So at a mile in depth we are looking at 2,349 PSI of water pressure trying to push it's way back into the pipe. The pressure coming out of the well pipe is the difference between the pressure of the oil and gas and the hydrostatic pressure. BP won't say what that is, but I am to assume that it is the sum of the pressure of the weight of the water plus the weight of the soils over the oil pool, minus the structural support of rocks in the soil.
Bottom line is that until they can fully cap the well head and measure the pressure coming from it, no one can say with certainty the pressure of the oil and gas escaping from the well head.
There is also Boyles law that comes into effect once the gas and oil leave the well head. The oil is liquid and cannot be compressed, but the NG is a gas and a tiny bubble at the wellhead under 2,349 PSI will become a huge bubble as it rises to the surface and is under less pressure.


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## wyogoob

Yeah, yeah, sort of. BP doesn't know what the pressure is. There's no *accurate* way to gauge the pressure underwater when it's flowing.

BP initially said the insertion tube was removing 33% of the biggest leak (remember there are 3 leaks). They now say it's only capturing 20%. I assume it is continually being pushed out.

The water pressure at 5100 feet is minimal compared to the pressure found at formation tens of thousands of feet under solid rock. I think the oil well is drilled into the formation at 18,000 feet. The Deepwater Horizon was designed to drill up to 30,000 feet deep.

The average multiplier for a foot of caprock is something like .465psi per vertical foot. So the oil formation (solid rock saturated with oil and gas under tremendous pressre) has 8,370 psi (18,000 x .465) on it. That's theory; every caprock formation has it's own "pressure rating" and that rating changes after the formation is fractured and/or the well has produced for awhile, even 30 days could make a dramatic difference.

5,100' x .445psi/ft = 2,269psi + 8370psi = 10,639psi. A guess.

One thing is for sure, BP used 15,000# series valves and flanges on the wellhead and BOP, so they anticipated worst case pressure over 10,000psi.

BR is placing the "top kill" device on as I type this blurb.


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## Huntoholic

Whew.............

All I was trying to point out was there is a big difference between a fire truck pump on land and the problems that BP is having a mile underwater. Working with high pressures is an art unto it's self.


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## jahan

Interesting

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp=37358255&#37363529


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## wyogoob

Huntoholic said:


> Whew.............
> 
> All I was trying to point out was there is a big difference between a fire truck pump on land and the problems that BP is having a mile underwater. Working with high pressures is an art unto it's self.


Sorry Huntoholic; yer fine. I have worked oil, gas, and steam since the day after I got out of high school, 1969. And I spent a great deal of my career in the Gulf of Mexico.

The government and BP are running the show. Consequently decision making is a slow process; all done by committe. They are wasting a lot of time. The hurricane season is near. IMHO going after the Blow Out Preventer is the right thing to do.


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## wyogoob

jahan said:


> Interesting
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp=37358255&#37363529


Thanks Jahan, that was a goodun. Many others hold some of their opinions about which one is the bigger leak.


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## Troll

IF they can stop the leak, that is a good thing. When they can stop all the leaks that will be a great thing. But, let’s not forget the damage done.

The immediate area around the spill is most likely dead. An area 100 miles wide and 50 miles long, 5,000 square miles, an area bigger than Connecticut. The 40% evaporation touted by BP does not mean that 40% has disappeared. It means it went into the air as air pollution, drifting away towards the west coast of Florida and over the Keys. Like 20 million gas tanks sitting in the sun until they were all empty. What evaporates? Toluene, Benzene, sulfides. (That rotten egg smell). What is left behind?
The heavy asphalt and tar compounds, oils, lots more sulfur. These are what have been drifting to shore. Fouling beaches, coating mangrove roots, suffocating the marsh grasses that hold the creek channels and islands in place. Shrimp are goners, crabs, the snails and zoo plankton..., sand crabs that cover the beach, no more. Livelihoods. Redfish, shook, tarpon, tuna, snapper, clams, oysters, all goners. If they survive they will most likely loose reproductive functions, much like a down winder.
Animals like dolphin surface for air in the slick zone, birds try to rest on the water. Compounds heavier than water sink and swirl about on the gulf floor, slowly scrubbing themselves until gone, leaving a trail of poison that was never meant to be a part of the sea.

Then there is the "dispersant” it doesn't make the oil go away either, it merely "disperses" the oil, so it looks like there is less. This dispersant is a deadly mix too. Already sickening cleanup workers. 

The economic damage will last longer than Katrina ever could have; fishing is all but gone, tourism, dismal...


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## Chaser

Latest word I saw this morning is they have it plugged. Just have to wait 48 hours to ensure it is permanent. Finally, some good news.


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## jahan

Chaser said:


> Latest word I saw this morning is they have it plugged. Just have to wait 48 hours to ensure it is permanent. Finally, some good news.


Key word they have ONE leak plugged, what everyone seems to be ignoring is many experts believe there are multiple leaks. There is nothing good about this, I feel for all those fisherman.


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## Chaser

jahan said:


> ...I feel for all those fisherman.


Why? According to a LA state senator, BP is going to be writing checks to EVERYONE who lost out because of it. Sounds to me like a few months off, WITH PAY. :roll:

Note the sarcasm above. The situation does suck, big time. This will affect these people, the wildlife, and the entire ecosystem and economy in the region for years, maybe decades to come.


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## wyogoob

Chaser said:


> Latest word I saw this morning is they have it plugged. Just have to wait 48 hours to ensure it is permanent. Finally, some good news.


Yer kiddin' me...that is good news.

11 people dead, dozens injured. An enviromental disaster.

Again, I'm forced to turn on the television.


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## wyogoob

jahan said:


> Chaser said:
> 
> 
> 
> Latest word I saw this morning is they have it plugged. Just have to wait 48 hours to ensure it is permanent. Finally, some good news.
> 
> 
> 
> Key word they have ONE leak plugged, what everyone seems to be ignoring is many experts believe there are multiple leaks. There is nothing good about this, I feel for all those fisherman.
Click to expand...

Yes, there are multiple leaks. But if they have the BOP plugged off that's the main feed. It's been reported that 4 leaks are on the bent-to-smithereens casing that is still hooked to the BOP. Another leak is from the all the residual oil in the long section of casing that is broken away from the casing that is still hooked to the BOP. I'm sure there's a still diesel fuel leak on the busted platform. Diesel is stored in a sump or in one of the legs on a semi-submersible drill rig. The Deepwater Horizon had 700,000 gallons on board went it went down. My take on it anyway, there are lots of stories going around and BP has even been a little confused at times.

There were a few that felt there was a leak below the BOP, a very, very, bad thing. I don't know what's up with that story.


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## wyogoob

The "top kill" procedure didn't work. 

Plan C is next; cut the riser and put a thing-a-ma-jig over the top. :?:


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## lehi

wyogoob said:


> The "top kill" procedure didn't work.
> 
> Plan C is next; cut the riser and put a thing-a-ma-jig over the top. :?:


Have they tried a giant glob of gorilla glue?


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## Iron Bear

Still spewing as many as 60,000 barrels a day. :shock: 

What if it went for another 60 days? Something seems fishy. I cant believe there aren't alternatives. I also cannot believe these wells aren't built with redundant fail safes. If not to protect the environment but to protect there investment. In hind sight it appears to be gross negligence. I have to think that insiders in the industry had foreseen this type of thing.  

When I consciously weigh the pro's and con's of oil in the big picture. The only conclusion I can come up with is to move away from this dependence. To bad solar is so expensive otherwise I would do my part and have panels on my house. And drive an electric car. And dream of a electric F350 with a 600 mile towing range.


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## coyoteslayer

> When I consciously weigh the pro's and con's of oil in the big picture. The only conclusion I can come up with is to move away from this dependence. To bad solar is so expensive otherwise I would do my part and have panels on my house. And drive an electric car. And dream of a electric F350 with a 600 mile towing range.


Or allow drilling closer to shore or on land. Thousands of wells have been drilled without any problems. We need to keep drilling regardless of what has happened. The government has handled this situation very poorly, and they should have been checking on BP. BP is also responsible.


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## Trooper

coyoteslayer said:


> The *government* has handled this situation very poorly, and they should have been checking on BP. BP is also responsible.


I thought you were always for smaller government, less regulation, leave business alone and trust the market to set an appropriate level of protection...

No?


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## proutdoors

http://mises.org/daily/4488



> Predictably, in response to the mess, there have been calls for more and tighter regulation on the industry. President Obama recently said he is interested in finding out who deserves punishment for the crime of the oil spill. *(Maybe he can blame Congress?)* Also predictably, there is scarcely a mention of the role of government intervention in the mess in any of the traditional state media. Instead, there is the standard demonizing of "unfettered capitalism" and the cries about the failure of the free market. Barely a mention is made that safety on drilling platforms has been under the purview of government regulators within the US Minerals Management Service and that the Deepwater Horizon was deemed a model for industry safety just last year.
> 
> In a free market, where BP would bear full responsibility for damages caused by its operations, there might not be such a mess to deal with in the gulf. Additionally, private insurers for BP would not have allowed for such a shoddy inspection record on the safety of a very complicated and difficult operation. Drilling far out in the ocean waters would likely have been pursued in some form, but with the companies bearing all the risk - and certainly not being rewarded for taking economically unsound actions - there would have been far less activity in deep waters.
> 
> Many people agitate for BP to hold true to its corporate line of moving "Beyond Petroleum" to alternative energy sources. The environmental disaster in the gulf will undoubtedly place further pressure on the company. Yet how can we ever know if that direction is feasible without freedom in the markets? True freedom would put the costs at the level that are truly indicative of risks and rewards involved with each activity.


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## STEVO

Welcome back Pro and congrats on the milestone!!!!


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## Iron Bear

So what price is too high? 

Does anyone really believe this type of thing will never happen again?

How many millions of barrels of oil will have to be spilled into the ocean before the price is too high? Remember one barrel is over 50 gallons. 

How smoggy does the air have to get? 

How expensive does a gallon of gas have to be before its too much?

Are all the ill's that come from fossil fuels justified because of its profitability?

Just sayin!


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## proutdoors

Iron Bear said:


> So what price is too high? Let the market determine that. Having government regulations determine it is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Does anyone really believe this type of thing will never happen again? It may happen again, with the odds of it reoccurring higher with the government meddling in the matter. But, lets keep things in perspective; this has happened *ONCE* even though there are *4000+* deep water platforms off our coasts.
> 
> How many millions of barrels of oil will have to be spilled into the ocean before the price is too high? Remember one barrel is over 50 gallons. See above.
> 
> How smoggy does the air have to get? The air is cleaner today than 30 years ago, so I am confused to what your point is. :?
> 
> How expensive does a gallon of gas have to be before its too much? The market will decide that, unless through government intervention we are FORCED off oil onto MORE expensive energy sources.
> 
> Are all the ill's that come from fossil fuels justified because of its profitability? What 'ills' would be eliminated from 'renewable' energy? And what new 'ills' would be introduced from 'renewable' energy? Define profitability.
> 
> Just sayin! Just askin!


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## hockey

proutdoors said:


> Iron Bear said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what price is too high? Let the market determine that. Having government regulations determine it is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Are you serious!!! Maybe 10k+ posts have fried your brain
> If we let the market determine the cost of oil the price will go sky high
Click to expand...


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## proutdoors

hockey said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iron Bear said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what price is too high? Let the market determine that. Having government regulations determine it is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Are you serious!!! Maybe 10k+ posts have fried your brain
> If we let the market determine the cost of oil the price will go sky high
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You make this assertion based on what?


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## proutdoors

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns ... gy-policy/



> "Every action has unintended consequences; you can never do only one thing."


Read this link to find out why oil prices are as high as they are. Blaming high oil prices on the free market is like blaming a plane crash on gravity.


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## hockey

Common Sense!
Not regurgitating info from some obscure ultra liberal or conservative website


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## proutdoors

hockey said:


> Common Sense!
> Not regurgitating info from some obscure ultra liberal or conservative website


That's what I suspected, you have *NOTHING* to support your claim or to refute mine.


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## hockey

I have common sense, intelligence, and education. Now why don't you turn off your computer for a minute and come up with an original thought (if you have one)


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## proutdoors

hockey said:


> I have common sense, intelligence, and education. Now why don't you turn off your computer for a minute and come up with an original thought (if you have one)


You have shown NO evidence you posses even a shred of common sense. Thinking government regulations lead to cheaper products is not employing common sense. What education do you have that leads to believe government intervention leads to prosperity and lower costs of living? As for your silly comment about me coming up with an original thought, that is funny coming from someone spewing progressive rhetoric that is found on the Huffington Post and the DailyKos. :O•-:


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## Steveb

If the oil companies try to crank up the prices, then demand will drop. Basic economics. They will actually make less money. The market is always the most efficient way to decide what things are worth. Government intervention tends to bog things down.


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## Iron Bear

So would "Free market Pro" have all hunting be privatized? 

Lease hunting rights to the highest bidder on federal and state lands. Let the free market determine the price of a deer or elk tag. :roll: 

And do away with the DWR the draw and CMWU. Or is this an exception to the free market rule?


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## proutdoors

Iron Bear said:


> So would "Free market Pro" have all hunting be privatized?
> 
> Lease hunting rights to the highest bidder on federal and state lands. Let the free market determine the price of a deer or elk tag. :roll:
> 
> And do away with the DWR the draw and CMWU. Or is this an exception to the free market rule?


I have made my position on this VERY clear. No need to rehash it again.


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## scott_rn

You've got to be torn on this one goob. You don't bite the hand that feeds 

Maybe now you'll buddy up with kevin costner, his fix might just work.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greensp ... green.html


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## wyogoob

scott_rn said:


> You've got to be torn on this one goob. You don't bite the hand that feeds  I spent much of my 41-year gas and oil career in the Gulf as a "company man", or an inspector, making sure everyone followed the rules so things like this wouldn't happen. I tried to impress upon my people that doing things "enviromentally correct" made good business sense. Deregulation changed all of that.
> 
> Also, some of Mrs. Goob and my fondest memories are from the beaches of the Gulf; Grand Isle, Gulf Shores, Pensacola....all places in between.
> 
> Maybe now you'll buddy up with kevin costner, his fix might just work.
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greensp ... green.html


There are thousands of ideas pouring in to BP's offices, yet we use 60s technology to attempt to contain or clean up the spill. Stopping the source at the BOP is another story; we aren't prepared, don't know how to work underwater at 5,000 feet deep. Nor are we prepared for the hurricane that is coming.

Since deregulation, I worry about the pipelines, they are vulnerable, in the Gulf, your Alaska, Utah, my Wyoming.

I offer little argument, especially with those that don't know what they are talking about. I may just get a shovel and go down there.


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## wyogoob

The last thing I want to do is turn this important enviromental issue into a purely political one, but here it goes:


wyogoob wrote:
"The USA's natural gas industry was nationalized for years under FERC (Federal Energy Regulatory Comission). Then it went deregulated in the mid 90's. Wall Street and the State's Rights people love it, but the enviroment has taken a big hit. 

Odd, but I liked it better when Big Brother was watching Big Oil."



Producing oil or natural gas before deregulation was expensive for Big Oil; just too many restrictive safety and enviromental regulations. We just couldn't compete with the Middle East. Offshore held most of the known hydrocarbons in the lower 48. Offshore also had the most federal restrictions: FERC, API, EPA, US Coast Guard, USGS, OSHA (after about 1981), ASME, The National Board, and others. In 1990 most of the offshore production was natural gas; oil was just too expensive to go after, given all the regulations at the time. Before deregulation Oil and Gas passed their costs onto the consumer. After deregulation they couldn't do that. So the focus shifted to oil, simply a matter of economics, global market timing. By then most of the oil in the Gulf was in deep water; too many rules, too costly to go after.

The Oil Embargo of 1978 fueled a boat-load of complaints from the oil and gas companies. They complained that pressure-part operating and inspection rules, based on decades-old engineering calculations, were killing them, making it too restrictive to explore and produce. For 10 years or so after the Oil Embargo event Big Oil and Gas worked on studies supporting going to "fit-for-service" guidelines of operation. Fit-for-service is using engineering based on historical data of practices and pressure part limitations that didn't meet all the present rules and regulations, but were found to hold pressure, be "serviceable" over time. I worked on an API fit-for-service task force, purposely putting defects in pipe and pipe welds and then running burst tests on them to see how much pressure they would actually take before they failed.......yikes!

While "fit-for-service" was being developed the Feds softened the rules determining whether an oil and gas company was "interstate" or "intrastate", making it convenient to change parts of their systems to intrastate allowing them to run under easier (except CA and east coast) state guidelines. Soon after, Oil and Gas broke up their systems into many fragments that could run under state regs. AK, TX, LA, and WY had the most. I worked for one of the off-shoot companies; a subsidary of a subsidary, of a subsidary. 

So in the 90's we deregulated, no longer subsidizing the operating costs for Oil and Gas. Oil and Gas then started cutting costs. The first cuts, of course, were made by dramatically reducing the workforce. That was good for the bottom line, but bad for those left standing, trying to follow, and record, the work necessary to satisfy all the bloated regulations. All this prompted Clinton, in 2000, to allow the Feds to pass "Fit-for-Service" regulations, especially API 579, to assisst the boys operating their facilities under, in their view, oppressive regs for operating interstate systems. Even the National Board, who governs boilers, among other things, followed suit, (except for nuke plant boilers.)

So now it goes like this: "Well, we found that this pipe had this huge and deep corrosion pit in it for 30 years and it held "x" amount of presure for "x" number of years, so we have proved that the old regs were BS." Or "The Arabs have succesfully been drilling and operating bigger and higher pressure oil wells without following drilling procedures #37, #43, and #56 (i.e.) so that's proof we can do it too." blah, blah, blah.

So, 10 years later, here we are with "fit for service", the fox guarding the chickens.

A side note: I purposely left out the Minerals Management Service's (MMS) role in this mess. That is just too political.


----------



## proutdoors

Goob, I am confused at how you assert the oil/gas industry has been deregulated. The ONLY reason BP was 40 miles out and drilling in 5000' of water was because of regulation. The government prohibited BP from drilling closer to shore in shallower water, gave them tax incentives to drill in deep water, and had a $75 million cap on liability put in place shortly after the Exxon mess. There were/are many other regulations in place as well. The MMS was right there watching, and lining their pockets along with the share holders of BP. So I ask, WTF good did regulations do? Wouldn't it have been better for BP to have drilled in shallower water and closer to shore? Regulations are as much a factor in this fiasco as greed or incompetence on the part of BP.


----------



## proutdoors

http://theadvocates.org/blog/59



> But was the BP oil spill really a failure of free markets? Absolutely not! In fact, the opposite is true. Free markets were pushed aside by unwise government regulations and government coziness with big business.





> "When large companies and the government start working together, the results can be disastrous. Congressional liability caps, the MMS bureaucracy, and BP have all cooperated to create a costly disaster that should never have happened."


----------



## wyogoob

proutdoors said:


> Goob, I am confused at how you assert the oil/gas industry has been deregulated. The ONLY reason BP was 40 miles out and drilling in 5000' of water was because of regulation. The government prohibited BP from drilling closer to shore in shallower water, gave them tax incentives to drill in deep water, and had a $75 million cap on liability put in place shortly after the Exxon mess. There were/are many other regulations in place as well. The MMS was right there watching, and lining their pockets along with the share holders of BP. So I ask, WTF good did regulations do? Wouldn't it have been better for BP to have drilled in shallower water and closer to shore? Regulations are as much a factor in this fiasco as greed or incompetence on the part of BP.


That's a good question, and partly answered in my long, and boring, narrative. For years oil and gas was tightly regulated. Offshore was controlled by Federal Energy Commission (FERC), Department of Transportation (DOT part 1104), US Coast Guard (USCG), United States Geological Service (USGS), and others.

This industry plugged along for 60 years with tons and tons of regulations, and tons and tons of employees mangaging the regulations. It didn't matter to Oil and Gas; they just passed all the operating costs on to the consumers, plus a little extra for profit. They actually made money by following all the bloated regulations.

The Feds mandated everything; how to drill, when to drill, where to drill, how to weld, how to inspect pipelines and vessels and at what frequency, how many pipelines, where to run pipelines, and even set a limit on profit. Not what you would call a free market society. It was socialism the critics said. And all the while the Oil and Gas people were just plugging along making money on all the bloated rules. It was the political arena that wanted change.

So America's oil slowly became more expensive to produce than foreign oil and we began to rely more and more on the cheaper foreign oil. Tax payers were subsidizing more than they should. This finally blew up in our face in 1978 (I think '78) during the Oil Embargo. And then for 15 years Congress debated and finally deregulated the industry. They said "OK, you guys (Big Oil) run the thing for awhile, without our help (over-regulation and subsidizes). If you can prove this rule is too stringent go with "fit-for-service". Deregulation in the early 90s followed.

As far as being out in 5,000' of water, they are there because that's where a huge oil reserve is and market prices, now and especially looking in the "crystal ball", allow them to be.

Before deregulation you couldn't make a pot of coffeee offshore without a Fed-approved SPCC (spill prevention, control, countermeasure plan) for that activity. Sounds like they have backed off on SPCCs and changed who is watching over the program.

I think we have gone too far with deregulation. The industry is basing their fit-for-service science on B.S.; on egos and profit margins mostly, and a government ran by oil people has been rubber-stamping all. If they don't tighten back up; maybe not you and I, but our children and grandchildren will see more disasters like this.

Igottagetbak2wurk


----------



## proutdoors

http://www.lp.org/news/press-releases/l ... -oil-spill



> "When President Obama gave his Oval Office speech on Tuesday, there was one important word missing: the word 'liability.' The president never mentioned that, thanks to liability caps provided by the federal government, BP was able to engage in riskier activities than it would have otherwise. If BP had known in advance that it would be fully liable for all damages related to an oil spill, it probably would have taken greater safeguards. When you know that your liability will be strictly limited, cutting corners becomes a lot more attractive.


This is NOT deregulation at play, goob!



> "When large companies and the government start working together, the results can be disastrous. Congressional liability caps, the MMS bureaucracy, and BP have all cooperated to create a costly disaster that should never have happened."


----------



## proutdoors

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/tgif/bp-spill/



> So: the MMS wanted to regulate, but the industry said it could regulate itself at lower cost, insisting it was a good steward of the environment. This is not to say that MMS was right and the companies wrong. For reasons provided below, government regulation is fatally flawed. Further, this is not just a simple matter of regulation. *More fundamentally it's a matter of ownership.* The government has proclaimed itself the owner of the offshore positions where oil companies drill. In a free market those positions would be homesteaded and managed privately with full liability. In the absence of a free market and private property, built-in incentives that protect the public are diminished if not eliminated. Bureaucrats and "political capitalists" are not as reliable as companies facing bankruptcy in a fully freed market.


Regulation encourages a lack of responsibility and of ownership. People tend to take better stewardship of things they personally own rather than things they don't own and have limited liability over.



> Those who see "tougher" government regulation as the answer are evading some formidable objections. First is the knowledge problem. Empowering regulators to prevent the next disaster tells us nothing about how they would know what to do without imposing costs that would dwarf any benefits.
> 
> Second is "regulatory capture." Regulators and the industries they oversee develop mutually beneficial relationships that would appall those who idealize regulators as watchdogs. The rules that emerge from those relationships tend to foster more monopolistic industries.


I have several links that go into detail on how BP, the government, and the environmentalists worked together to either create or allow the Gulf disaster for devious purposes. I hesitate to post them as I know this site doesn't like such detailed discussions. So, I have posted some of them on: http://www.politicalnecrosis.com/forum.htm for anyone wishing to delve into that arena. 8)


----------



## hockey

[quote So, I have posted some of them on: http://www.politicalnecrosis.com/forum.htm for anyone wishing to delve into that arena. 8)[/quote]

So how about you stay over there!!


----------



## wyogoob

Good grief proutdoors! 

This reminds me of what Richard Nixon once said, and I quote, verbatim:

"I don't think you quite understand that what you believe I may have meant isn't what you think I said."


----------



## proutdoors

wyogoob said:


> Good grief proutdoors!
> 
> This reminds me of what Richard Nixon once said, and I quote, verbatim:
> 
> "I don't think you quite understand that what you believe I may have meant isn't what you think I said."


So clarify for me. 8)

hockey, I got to say, little ankle biters like you are pure comedy. Keep it up. :O||: You can't even quote my post right. :lol:


----------



## GaryFish

Mod Shot *******
OK. This is a topic absolutly worthy of discussion, as this oil spill is one of the greatest environmental catastrophies in recent times. It has great connection to what this site is all about - how industry impacts our environment - clearly an outdoors/fishing/hunting thing. And for the most part, this thread has stayed as a good discussion of what is going on. Heck, I'm even good broaching the political side of things in this case because it is important. BUT KEEP AWAY FROM NAME CALLING. Its great to disagree, but do so respectully and without the playground crap. I REALLY would hate to shut this thread down because people can't discuss without name calling.

Thanks!

Gary


----------



## jahan

hockey said:


> [quote So, I have posted some of them on: http://www.politicalnecrosis.com/forum.htm for anyone wishing to delve into that arena. 8)


So how about you stay over there!![/quote]

So if someone doesn't have your exact same point of view they shouldn't stay around?


----------



## proutdoors

GaryFish said:


> Mod Shot *******
> OK. This is a topic absolutly worthy of discussion, as this oil spill is one of the greatest environmental catastrophies in recent times. It has great connection to what this site is all about - how industry impacts our environment - clearly an outdoors/fishing/hunting thing. And for the most part, this thread has stayed as a good discussion of what is going on. Heck, I'm even good broaching the political side of things in this case because it is important. BUT KEEP AWAY FROM NAME CALLING. Its great to disagree, but do so respectully and without the playground crap. I REALLY would hate to shut this thread down because people can't discuss without name calling.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Gary


Who called who names? Honest question. If you are making a Mod Shot******* because I called someone an ankle biter you are being a bit punchy IMHO. I thought considering his constant attacks and snide remarks directed at me I was/am being extremely restrained. :shock:


----------



## GaryFish

Pro - it was for everyone in the discussion - not just you. 

The reason I fired the shot is this is a very good discussion. When things start to slide with personal attacks, it quickly goes bad. I reminded EVERYONE to play nice because I am really learning from this subject, the different points of view, and what is being shared and I don't want to see a good discussion degrade into name calling. That's it. I'd rather offer the warning first so it doesn't go there than have it go bad. That's all.


----------



## proutdoors

8)


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

GaryFish said:


> Pro - it was for everyone in the discussion - not just you.
> 
> The reason I fired the shot is this is a very good discussion. When things start to slide with personal attacks, it quickly goes bad. I reminded EVERYONE to play nice because I am really learning from this subject, the different points of view, and what is being shared and I don't want to see a good discussion degrade into name calling. That's it. I'd rather offer the warning first so it doesn't go there than have it go bad. That's all.


So why don't you call out the individual that is causing the trouble and initiating the personal attacks ie hockey? Is it just easier to make a general statement to the whole forum instead of calling out the offending member? When someone is out of line you shouldn't be afraid to call them on the carpet if you are going to be a moderator! If you lack the courage or intelectual integrity to do so perhaps you should resign!


----------



## GaryFish

Glad to call people out individually if need be. No problem there. Just thought a general warning would be better in this case. Nothing more. Nothing less.


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## wyogoob

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pro - it was for everyone in the discussion - not just you.
> 
> The reason I fired the shot is this is a very good discussion. When things start to slide with personal attacks, it quickly goes bad. I reminded EVERYONE to play nice because I am really learning from this subject, the different points of view, and what is being shared and I don't want to see a good discussion degrade into name calling. That's it. I'd rather offer the warning first so it doesn't go there than have it go bad. That's all.
> 
> 
> 
> So why don't you call out the individual that is causing the trouble and initiating the personal attacks ie hockey? Is it just easier to make a general statement to the whole forum instead of calling out the offending member? When someone is out of line you shouldn't be afraid to call them on the carpet if you are going to be a moderator! If you lack the courage or intelectual integrity to do so perhaps you should resign!
Click to expand...

Please use a PM for these Mod issues.

A rule reminder:
The forum moderators volunteer their time to help make this a better place. Do not publicly dispute their decisions. If you have concerns, please discuss it with them in private messages.


----------



## wyogoob

proutdoors said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mod Shot *******
> OK. This is a topic absolutly worthy of discussion, as this oil spill.............................
> 
> Gary
> 
> 
> 
> Who called who names? ...................................I thought considering his constant attacks and snide remarks directed at me I was/am being extremely restrained. :shock:
Click to expand...

Yes, and thanks.


----------



## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> luv2fsh&hnt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pro - it was for everyone in the discussion - not just you.
> 
> The reason I fired the shot is this is a very good discussion. When things start to slide with personal attacks, it quickly goes bad. I reminded EVERYONE to play nice because I am really learning from this subject, the different points of view, and what is being shared and I don't want to see a good discussion degrade into name calling. That's it. I'd rather offer the warning first so it doesn't go there than have it go bad. That's all.
> 
> 
> 
> So why don't you call out the individual that is causing the trouble and initiating the personal attacks ie hockey? Is it just easier to make a general statement to the whole forum instead of calling out the offending member? When someone is out of line you shouldn't be afraid to call them on the carpet if you are going to be a moderator! If you lack the courage or intelectual integrity to do so perhaps you should resign!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please use a PM for these Mod issues.
> 
> A rule reminder:
> The forum moderators volunteer their time to help make this a better place. Do not publicly dispute their decisions. If you have concerns, please discuss it with them in private messages.
Click to expand...


----------



## coyoteslayer

Yeah the MODS are sweet and kind.


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

wyogoob said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> luv2fsh&hnt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pro - it was for everyone in the discussion - not just you.
> 
> The reason I fired the shot is this is a very good discussion. When things start to slide with personal attacks, it quickly goes bad. I reminded EVERYONE to play nice because I am really learning from this subject, the different points of view, and what is being shared and I don't want to see a good discussion degrade into name calling. That's it. I'd rather offer the warning first so it doesn't go there than have it go bad. That's all.
> 
> 
> 
> So why don't you call out the individual that is causing the trouble and initiating the personal attacks ie hockey? Is it just easier to make a general statement to the whole forum instead of calling out the offending member? When someone is out of line you shouldn't be afraid to call them on the carpet if you are going to be a moderator! If you lack the courage or intelectual integrity to do so perhaps you should resign!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please use a PM for these Mod issues.
> 
> A rule reminder:
> The forum moderators volunteer their time to help make this a better place. Do not publicly dispute their decisions. If you have concerns, please discuss it with them in private messages.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I just did the same thing he did. A broad statement that covered everbody. It is right here in black and white for everybody to read. Everybody that can read sees who is resorting to personal attacks. Locking threads down or threatening to lock them because one person refuses to abide by the rules is beyond absurd and displays a lack of good judgement in my opinion. People that contributed alot more to this forum than the offending member ever has have been banned from participating for pointing out the inconsistency of the moderating. Perhaps that will be my fate also but until it does I will voice my opinion in what is most likely a futile attempt to see this forum return to being a fun place with lively banter.


----------



## lehi

So Goob, Do you think their new cap will work? Sounds promising....


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## stillhunterman

o-||


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## wyogoob

lehi said:


> So Goob, Do you think their new cap will work? Sounds promising....


I just seen the new cap tonight. I know little about it. I thought maybe they were configuring a robot to unscrew the flange bolts on the BOP-to-riser flange.

I watched TV for 2 hours yesterday, the World Cup. It may take me a day or two to recover. :lol:


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## wyogoob

The new cap has been on for 5 minutes. They have what I feel is a well-engineered and thought-out plan. They know they have to be careful, they don't know the damage to the drill pipe below the BOP, if any. If they pressure that line (s) up and it has some mechanical problem from when the drilling platform fell over, we are in trouble.

My fingers are still crossed. Same ones I will use later for finger pointing.


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## wyogoob

On a lighter note, I have written a brief, yet riveting, memo to BP suggesting that they sell advertising space on their live feed. I recommended putting up some ad signs...Pepsi, Chevron Oil, GM, political parties, the UWN, Enron, Chinese banks, Utah Transit Authority, and of course, the Evanston Annual Cowboy Days. 

So far there's been no response.


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## jahan

LOL!


----------



## stillhunterman

Now that's funny goob! lmao


----------



## wyogoob

The devil wants me to get Mr. Photoshop out.


----------



## GaryFish

Careful for what you wish for. The DNC just might pay to put a picture of Chenney and Palin with the words "This Oil Spill Brought to You by ........"


----------



## wyogoob

GaryFish said:


> Careful for what you wish for. The DNC just might pay to put a picture of Chenney and Palin with the words "This Oil Spill Brought to You by ........"


Would you behave. 

Things are looking up. The latest cap appears to be holding and before any hurricane hit.

Eleven workers dead.


----------



## wyogoob

The word is the ocean floor near the well site is leaking methane. 

a bad thing


----------



## huntingbuddy

any news yet wyogoob?


----------



## wyogoob

huntingbuddy said:


> any news yet wyogoob?


I don't have a clue, workin' long days.


----------



## ACHY

wyogoob said:


> The devil wants me to get Mr. Photoshop out.


Speaking of Photoshop... http://www.americablog.com/2010/07/bp-photoshops-fake-photo-of-command.html


----------



## wyogoob

ACHY said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> The devil wants me to get Mr. Photoshop out.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of Photoshop... http://www.americablog.com/2010/07/bp-photoshops-fake-photo-of-command.html
Click to expand...

That's dumb.

Hydrocarbon Happenings:

> The new cap has been holding for 14 days now. 
> There are no leaks on the ocean floor around the well, by most reports.
> Some "official" claims there is no more oil floating on top of the water. Can you say "dispersants"?
> BP has a new CEO who is going to focus on safety and streamline the company...?
> A barge has hit and broken off an abandoned riser pipe not to far from the big BP spill.
> An oil pipeline in the ocean in China broke last week.
> An oil pipeline in Michigan broke in a river crossing this week.
> Chevron still claims electrified fences burn holes in underground pipelines.
> BP is selling all their assets in the Overthrust Belt in and around Evanston, WY.
> In an effort to thwart the Mountain Plover's listing as a threatened or endangered bird, Wyoming's gas and oil community claims that the bird actually likes to nest on "disturbed" sites created by natural gas exploration and production.

Drill baby drill.


----------



## Yonni

well Goob where is all the oil that has spilled? 
Even Time Mag has written concerning the exaggeration of the supposed damage that this leak has caused. 
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 02,00.html
Honestly I would like to see environmentally safe practices used, which for the most part they are, and see drilling done closer to shore, imho. 
I find it amazing how the Ocean has been able to "absorb" this oil that has leaked, pretty cool stuff!!


----------



## wyogoob

Got me. I really want to go down their and check it out, see some friends of mine, but I have too many family things going on. 

First, I don't know how much was spilled.
Second, I don't know how much has been recovered. 
Third, dispersants have ??? amount of the spill suspended in the water column, under the surface.
Lastly, It's crude oil, hyrocarbons, the key word being "hydro". It's not like oil you put in your truck. Crude oil has volatiles in it that evaporate, water in it that separates, parts of it may not float anymore after sitting in the hot sun breaking down for months.

Every oil field has it's own type of crude oil. Spring Valley outside of Evanston was like sewing machine oil, the crude in the Exxon Valdez tanker was a tar-like asphalt. If this crude is rust colored, it's light crude, like the politically-charged Time article brought out. It should break up easily, especially in the Gulf of Mexico's hot water. Each type of crude bioremediates in it's own way, at a different speed if I may, dependant on 3 things: water, temperature, and it's organic makeup that enable microbes and bacteria to do their job.

I'm against using dispersants, a dumb band-aide approach, breaking up a hyrocarbon goo into tiny particles that sink is stupid. Many countries, states, and corporations forbid the practice.

Also hurricanes will push much of the crude into the marsh. After that little of it will be cleaned up, impossible, really, it would take generations. The marsh is an absolutely enormous weed patch suspended in water. Only a small part is accessable. Tides are small there, and the waterline, normally rich with huge mats of dead vegetation full of oil-eating microbes, is a good a place as any for mother nature to bioremediate. But Hurricane Katrina took all of that away 5 years ago.

blah, blah, blah 


FYI-Among other things, when I worked for the gas company I was the pipeline district Bioremediation Officer, a "papered" bioremediation dude. 


imho, a gallon spilled is too much


----------



## Yonni

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 81_pf.html
Documents indicate heavy use of dispersants in gulf oil spill

Nasty crap to use doing more harm then good.


----------



## wyogoob

What's the latest in the Gulf?

Does your shrimp taste like Valvoline?




Hydrcarbon Happings:

> Nasty Exxon?Mobil oil pipeline leak under the Yellowstone River in Montana Friday, July 1. Exxon said they will respond within 36 hours.....uh 36 hours?

> 2 oil pipeline leaks in North Dakota this spring.

> Gas pipeline leak in New York state this spring.

> New life will be breathed into the nearly-abandoned Overthrust Gas field northeast of Evingston. A new company, with most of the start-up permits now in hand, will take natural gas out of the many big cross-country pipelines that intersect the field and pump it, store it, back in the old depleted formations.


----------



## wyogoob

440 people are cleaning up the spill on the Yellowstone:
http://www.americanindependent.com/1924 ... mens-group

I missed this one:
Liquid Butane leak in Illinois last May: http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?sectio ... id=8131696

who cares


----------



## wyogoob

Out of the 33,000 gallons of oil spilled into Salt Lake City's Red Butte Creek, 778 gallons have been cleaned up.

http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz- ... t-complete

The article says:
"It is estimated clean-up and restoration will take several years. "Our community has never lived through an incident as significant as this," said Mayor Becker. "This is going to be an ongoing process for some time. I don't know what 'some time' means."

What's going on there? Are they bioremediating?


----------



## redleg

Remember when Jimmy Carter was president and there was a oil shortage. Oil trucks crashed in Provo canyon so much it almost destroyed the fishery. The wrecks stopped after the oil shortage. :O•-: 
Just before this oil spill Baraq had announced he would favor off shore drilling. the Libs were going nuts, they were being betrayed by thier guy. I suspect there was a member of PETA working on that well. :twisted:


----------



## wyogoob

Now we're talkin, somebody that cares.


Do you know if they are bioremediating the Red Butte Creek oil spill in Salt Lake City?


----------



## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> Out of the 33,000 gallons of oil spilled into Salt Lake City's Red Butte Creek, 778 gallons have been cleaned up.
> 
> http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz- ... t-complete
> 
> The article says:
> "It is estimated clean-up and restoration will take several years. "Our community has never lived through an incident as significant as this," said Mayor Becker. "This is going to be an ongoing process for some time. I don't know what 'some time' means."
> 
> *Sept 7, 2011 update:*
> SLC mayor Becker and Chevron have ironed out a deal where Chevron pays the city $4.5 million in damages for the spills. Chevron will have to plant 3000 native cutthroats in 3 miles of Red Butte Creekand a waterfowl mitigation project will funded at $100,000. In addition, the U of U gets $1.3 million for clean-up costs.
> 
> The mayor said the settlement will not close the door on future claims from other agencies, especially health agencies.
> 
> Since July 31 Chevron has spent $27 million in remediation expenses and paid out $929,000 to third-parties as compensation for damages.
> 
> What's going on there? Are they bioremediating?


----------



## Cooky

Remediation is the action taken to remedy a situation.
The situation was that the public was aware of an oil spill and dollars were in the wrong pockets. Remediation has taken place.
It's amazing.


----------



## wyogoob

Less than 18 months since Zeus, the God of the heavens, speared an oil pipeline with a bolt of lightning, the Utah Divison of Wildlife Resources (DWR) have planted 3,000 fingerling Bonneville Cuttthroat Trout in Red Butte Creek. The oil spill wiped out fish and invertebrates in a 3-mile long stretch of Red Butte Creek from the U of U to Liberty Park. The 3,000 fingerlings were planted in 5 different locations. 

Mike Slater, an aquatics biologist with the DWR says Chevron, the owner of the oil line, "...did a great job of cleaning things up."

It is not known if the invertebrates in Red Butte Creek have recovered enough to sustain the planted trout thru the winter months.

Lets wish the trout, and the DWR, good luck.


----------



## wyogoob

The EPA announced today that fracking, a controversial method to enhance gas an doil wells, in the Pavilion Wyoming area is polluting groundwater and waterwells.

The Governor of Wyoming is calling for more tests.

Some ranchers say their water smells like gasoline.

see USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/money/industrie ... 51745004/1

drill, baby, drill


----------



## Cooky

Some additional interesting quotes from the article:

"may _be to blame for causing groundwater pollution_."
"likely _associated with fracking chemicals_"
"_could have had other origins _not _related to gas development_"
"_fracking that occurred in Pavillion differed from fracking methods used elsewhere_"

This link is to the EPA press release:
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.ns ... enDocument

Hopefully, all those who normally only serve their own special interests will allow the right thing to happen in Pavillion.


----------



## wyogoob

Anadarko is the biggest player in gas and oil in Utah and has a large imprint in neighboring Wyoming and Colorado. IMO they do a relatively great job protecting the environment and wildlife habitat. They own large tracts of land in Wyoming and readily allow hunting on their properties.

This year Anadarko they received the Game & Fish's award for Landowner of the Year in the Green River Region of Wyoming&#8230;a big deal.

Here are some of the awards Anadarko has received for being environmentally friendly. 
• 2011 Landowner of the Year from Wyoming Game and Fish 
• 2010 Outstanding Oil and Gas Operations Award from Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (COGCC) 
• 2010 Distinguished Achievement Award from the Offshore Technology Conference (OTC)
• 2010 Earth Day Award from Utah Division of Oil, Gas and Mining
• 2008 Earth Day Award from the Utah Division of Oil, Gas and Mining
• 2008 Reclamation and Wildlife Stewardship Award from the Wyoming Game & Fish Department

Merry Christmas to Anadarko.


----------



## wyogoob

A Russian offshore platform sunk last week in the Arctic Ocean:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45777067/ns ... sts-doubt/

10 to 30 year-old reclaimed offshore platform parts were used to build the facility. Never heard of that one.


----------



## Cooky

I’ve seen used parts returned to service in oil refineries several times; here is an example.
In the ‘80s I worked a turnaround in a refinery in SLC where we built a cracker stack mostly out of used parts from their scrap yard. I have no idea why there were sections of crackers in a scrap yard. It went through all the inspections you would expect, as a pressure vessel it had to meet ASME Section 8 so the testing was verified by a third party (Hartford if I remember). It is still in service within a stones throw of I-15.
Are there off-shore safety and engineering standards? The article seems to imply that each organization independently decides what is good enough.


----------



## Cooky

wyogoob said:


> Anadarko is the biggest player in gas and oil in Utah and has a large imprint in neighboring Wyoming and Colorado. IMO they do a relatively great job protecting the environment and wildlife habitat. They own large tracts of land in Wyoming and readily allow hunting on their properties.
> 
> This year Anadarko they received the Game & Fish's award for Landowner of the Year in the Green River Region of Wyoming&#8230;a big deal.
> 
> Here are some of the awards Anadarko has received for being environmentally friendly.
> • 2011 Landowner of the Year from Wyoming Game and Fish
> • 2010 Outstanding Oil and Gas Operations Award from Colorado Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (COGCC)
> • 2010 Distinguished Achievement Award from the Offshore Technology Conference (OTC)
> • 2010 Earth Day Award from Utah Division of Oil, Gas and Mining
> • 2008 Earth Day Award from the Utah Division of Oil, Gas and Mining
> • 2008 Reclamation and Wildlife Stewardship Award from the Wyoming Game & Fish Department
> 
> Merry Christmas to Anadarko.


That's good to see that Anadarko is doing their duty as a citizen of the world. What they are doing is proving my thoughts below.

Oil and gas can be produced cleanly. Oil and gas can be produced cleanly and profitably. I think we (as a country) are going to need cheap oil energy for a while longer so we need to continue to drill wells, run pipelines and operate refineries. But we need to make sure we don't trash the place in the name of current needs and profit.

I recently watched a TV show about oil wells in L.A. There are wells on lots; in the middle of neighborhoods all over L.A. (this was news to me). These wells are nearly silent, nicely painted and landscaped and not a drop of oil out of place anywhere. Happy granola heads living right next door.

It does cost more to work using environmentally friendly methods and it is very expensive to fix environmental mistakes. I believe that when regulators and activists jump in and take over it is a disservice. What they have done then is relieve the oil company of the intellectual as well as, often, the physical and financial burden of doing it right or making it right (like when you quit complaining and clean your kid's room). The oil companies have the dollars and the know how. We need to ensure they have the motivation.

Thoughts?


----------



## GaryFish

I know where you are heading Cooky. I think you are right to some degree. It really isn't in the financial interest of an oil company to save $5,000 on a used or poor quality valve, when its failure will cost $50M in clean up. Like you said, our fluid energy resource can be, and are extracted in a way that is minimally invasive to the environment. Where the regulation comes in to me, is to ensure that WHEN there are failures in the system, the company is held responsible for their actions. When they are made fully, 100% responsible for all negative consequences whenn something goes wrong, they will make absolutely sure that things won't fail; if not for the environmental "feel good" , then for the financial impacts of mistakes.


----------



## wyogoob

Next week I will make an inspection and assessment of a facility similar to the ones in Louisiana Cooky was talking about, except this one is out in the Wyoming boonies. It caught fire a couple of weeks ago. I'm glad it wasn't in my back yard.

More later.

How 'bout the big offshore spill in Nigeria? It's a goodun'.

Here's a partial list of oil and gas spills:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_spills

Drill baby, drill.


----------



## JuddCT

wyogoob said:


> Less than 18 months since Zeus, the God of the heavens, speared an oil pipeline with a bolt of lightning, the Utah Divison of Wildlife Resources (DWR) have planted 3,000 fingerling Bonneville Cuttthroat Trout in Red Butte Creek. The oil spill wiped out fish and invertebrates in a 3-mile long stretch of Red Butte Creek from the U of U to Liberty Park. The 3,000 fingerlings were planted in 5 different locations.
> 
> Mike Slater, an aquatics biologist with the DWR says Chevron, the owner of the oil line, "...did a great job of cleaning things up."
> 
> It is not known if the invertebrates in Red Butte Creek have recovered enough to sustain the planted trout thru the winter months.
> 
> Lets wish the trout, and the DWR, good luck.


My father an avid fly fisher and outdoorsman works for Chevron and was very highly involved with the leak and further clean up. Tragic that it happened, but just as Mike Slater stated Chevron did a very good job of cleaning up and taking care of it. Also, you would be amazed at all the "behind the scenes" stuff that took place that didn't make it in the release.


----------



## Cooky

I should have been more clear on the well locations. The L.A. I was talking about is Los Angeles, California. Here is a video I found that shows some of what I was talking about. I disavow any knowledge of the rest of the website.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/1 ... 62153.html


----------



## wyogoob

Biggest export in the USA?

Fuel! Gasoline and diesel fuel. see: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45828012/ns ... nd_energy/

There must be a surplus. That's why gasoline is so cheap. :lol:

drill baby, drill


----------



## wyogoob

Check out the trailer for the documentary "Gasland":





1:18 to 1:20, 2:14 and 2:32 depicts my old stomping grounds in Pinedale WY.


----------



## wyogoob

There's an interesting clip of a recent compressor station fire and explosion outside of Pinedale Wyoming this past December:


----------



## wyogoob

The huge increase in natural gas exploration and production outside of Pinedale Wyoming has negative effects on air quality in Sublette County and beyond. At times Sublette County has the highest ozone levels in the nation. So bad that the residents have formed an air quality committee in the once cow-town of Pinedale Wyoming.

see: http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional ... d0137.html

The newly formed air quality working group is comprised of ranchers, local business, concerned citizens, WY state officials, BLM, and oil and gas. Similar groups have been out there for big game and sage-grouse for some time, with mixed results (good for sage-grouse, not so good for antelope and deer, IMO)

The first meeting is tomorrow night. Wish I could go, but I'm on the road. I have worked there, and played there, off and on for 30 years and I'm saddened by what's happened to the area.


----------



## Cooky

Maybe some individual accountability will help in the future.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=157&sid=2012620 ... spill-case


----------



## wyogoob

BP pleaded quilty to 11 felony charges connected with the Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. The charges included lying about how much oil was spilling out. Fines total $4.5 billion.

BP 3rd quarter profits - $5.5 billion

BP continues to drill in the Gulf of Mexico


----------



## wyogoob

News just came out that a production platform in the Gulf of Mexico has exploded and caught fire.

2 dead, 2 missing, 4 flown to burn center.

http://news.msn.com/us/coast-guard-inve ... ?gt1=51501


----------



## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> News just came out that a production platform in the Gulf of Mexico has exploded and caught fire.
> 
> 2 dead, 2 missing, 4 flown to burn center.
> 
> http://news.msn.com/us/coast-guard-inve ... ?gt1=51501


Another worker died from complications. Still one missing.

sad


----------



## wyogoob

12" natural gas pipeline blows up in 9-mile Canyon. 2 workers injured.

The explosion blew a hole 20 foot deep and 30 foot in diameter saving the gas company a little money on excavation costs when they go to make the repair.


----------



## Ton_Def

wyogoob said:


> The explosion blew a hole 20 foot deep and 30 foot in diameter saving the gas company a little money on excavation costs when they go to make the repair.


The glass is always half full, eh Goob??


----------



## Cooky

Chevron needs a little attention.

Makes you wonder how many *don't* make the news.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=24465474&nid=14 ... id=queue-1


----------



## wyogoob

Cooky said:


> Chevron needs a little attention.
> 
> Makes you wonder how many *don't* make the news.
> 
> http://www.ksl.com/?sid=24465474&nid=14 ... id=queue-1


KUTV just had a bit that said a beaver dam helped contain the the product.


----------



## Cooky

The pipeline was installed in the 1950's but is regularly maintained. Good grief. 
Goob, do they have predetermined UT points or are they random?


----------



## wyogoob

Cooky said:


> The pipeline was installed in the 1950's but is regularly maintained. Good grief.
> Goob, do they have predetermined UT points or are they random?


Depends.

If it's an interstate (from state to state) pipeline it has to follow DOT Federal 192 rules; periodic wall thickness testing usually taken internally with a Line-a-Log machine.

If it's an intrastate (inside one state) pipeline there's fewer rules, less maintenance, not much for wall thickness tests until there's a failure.

Deregulation spawned a move for interstate pipelines to be easily broken up into intrastate pipelines. That way they had fewer regulations; had to follow more state regulations and fewer Federal rules. Conservative states like Alaska, Wyoming, and Utah made it easy for Big Oil and Gas to operate, improving their bottom line.

IMO deregulation was bad for the enviroment and the safety of people living close to natural gas and oil facilities but it did curtail monopolies, creating free market competition in the natural gas industry thus keeping natural gas prices low. Wyoming and Utah have some of the lowest natural gas prices in the USA.


----------



## Cooky

wyogoob said:


> Cooky said:
> 
> 
> 
> The pipeline was installed in the 1950's but is regularly maintained. Good grief.
> Goob, do they have predetermined UT points or are they random?
> 
> 
> 
> If it's an intrastate (inside one state) pipeline there's fewer rules, less maintenance, not much for wall thickness tests until there's a failure.
Click to expand...

I guess a leak is a pretty good way to tell when your pipe needs to be repaired. It's hard to imagine that being the preferred method. But it will be until spills get too painful for the big dogs in the petrochem business.


----------



## sawsman

Goob - Do these older pipelines require cathodic protection? The article mentioned "sensors"… do they mean variances between two flow meters? Or do they monitor using some other type of sensor? Just curious.


----------



## wyogoob

sawsman said:


> Goob - Do these older pipelines require cathodic protection? The article mentioned "sensors"&#8230; do they mean variances between two flow meters? Or do they monitor using some other type of sensor? Just curious.[/quote
> 
> Underground natural gas and hydrocarbon steel lines have cathodic protection (CP), usually DC. In certain soil types or on old lines with bad coating (shorts to ground) sacrificial anodes will be attached to an undergroung line. Offshore pipelines always have sacrificial anodes, usually poured on a form around the pipe and placed every 400 yards or so, can't remember now. The required upkeep, maintenace, and monitoring is a convoluted mess of regulations depending on whether the governing body is an interstate or an intrastate operation. There could be state rules too.
> 
> You will see the CP rectifiers on a pipeline along a road or at a stream crossing. They'll have have solar panel with a big metal box underneath it.


----------



## wyogoob

Pipeline oil spill making a mess of the enviroment in Arkansas.

"_And as pipelines grow older, the chances of accidents - such as bursts leading to oil spillages - increase. However, there is very little government regulation to keep an eye on corroded pipelines that have simply grown too old to function."_

see: http://rt.com/usa/arkansas-oil-pipeline-keystone-235/


----------



## Cooky

The oil pipeline past Willard is up and running again.

_"The successful test came the same week the pipeline flunked a similar test mandated by the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Administration." _

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=25...peline-given-green-light-to-resume-operations


----------



## wyogoob

Zip-ah-dee-doo-dah!!!!


----------



## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> sawsman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Goob - Do these older pipelines require cathodic protection? The article mentioned "sensors"&#8230; do they mean variances between two flow meters? Or do they monitor using some other type of sensor? Just curious.[/quote
> 
> Underground natural gas and hydrocarbon steel lines have cathodic protection (CP), usually DC. In certain soil types or on old lines with bad coating (shorts to ground) sacrificial anodes will be attached to an undergroung line. Offshore pipelines always have sacrificial anodes, usually poured on a form around the pipe and placed every 400 yards or so, can't remember now. The required upkeep, maintenance, and monitoring is a convoluted mess of regulations depending on whether the governing body is an interstate or an intrastate operation. There could be state rules too.
> 
> You will see the CP rectifiers on a pipeline along a road or at a stream crossing. They'll have have solar panel with a big metal box underneath it.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't answer the second part of sawsman's reply about pipeline "sensors".
> 
> Here it is:
> Pipelines under the Federal DOT (interstate pipelines) have an automatic shutoff valve that trips when there's a pressure drop of 6 psig a minute (best I remember). These automatic valves are positioned every 20 to 30 miles apart.
> 
> The valve nearest the leak senses the pressure drop first and closes. Then the valve on the other side of the leak sees a more rapid pressure drop and it closes, isolating the 20 to 30 mile long section of line with the leak.
> 
> A solar battery powered telemetry device sends a signal to the pipeline company's gas control and they dispatch a team of maintenance hands to the valve settings. They also contact the sheriff and emergency departments of each county that the leaking section of pipeline is in.
> 
> In the old days all the gas in the leaking section of line was automatically blown to the atmosphere. I don't know if the isolated line is blown down automatically these days.
> 
> Intrastate pipelines (pipelines operating within one state) have to follow a few Federal rules and then state rules. The state rules for safely maintaining a high pressure hydrocarbon pipeline differ dramatically from one state to another.
> 
> If you live in a state that legislates against governmental overreach, do not build a house next to an intrastate pipeline. trust me.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


----------



## wyogoob

*Keystone Pipeline leaked*

A goodun from 2015: see: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ke...than-thought/ar-BBrwiVH?form=prhptp&ocid=iehp

TransCanada's Keystone Pipeline reported a leak of 187 gallons of crude. Sounds like it was really 17,000 gallons.

The crude oil line from the tar sands of Alberta, new in 2010, had 35 leaks the first year of operation. But the company said in a statement in January 2015: "_Nonetheless, TransCanada maintained that a planned $5.4 billion addition to the pipeline network, Keystone XL, would "set the gold standard for a safe and reliable 21st century pipeline."

_President Barack Obama rejected the Keystone XL project in November 2015.

drill baby, drill

.


----------



## wyogoob

*buried the records 45-foot-deep*

Holy Moly! "The good ole days."

_On July 3, a jury found Texas-New Mexico Pipeline (TNMP) Company guilty of fraud, gross negligence and willful misconduct in concealing a 1992 crude oil pipeline leak beneath a Midland, Texas residential subdivision, before selling the pipeline to EOTT Energy in 1999. Oil was discovered in the water table in late 2000, and in March 2001 a group of Midland residents sued EOTT, TNMP and Equilon. Residents living on affected land also received settlements. The spill was estimated in 2003 to be 9,000-13,000 barrels. 190 boxes full of TNMP documents about the pipeline dating from the late 1980s to early 1990s (prior to EOTT Energy taking over the pipeline) were dug up from a 45-foot-deep hole at a site along the company's pipeline in New Mexico.[77][78]

_see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century


----------



## LostLouisianian

Back to the OP. A very close personal family friend was supposed to be on Deep Water Horizon when it blew out. Fortunately for him the boat that was taking that crew out had a problem and had to return to port and swap out for a different boat. That problem very likely saved his life as he has an artificial leg due to an accident and can't move around as fast as me or you.


----------



## GaryFish

If you haven't seen the movie Promised Land, with Matt Damon, you should. It is on Netflix. Worth watching.


----------



## wyogoob

GaryFish said:


> If you haven't seen the movie Promised Land, with Matt Damon, you should. It is on Netflix. Worth watching.


OK, thanks.

.


----------



## High Desert Elk

Seems like a lot of anti-oil & gas on this site, or maybe just fossil fuel related energy. So, what's everyone's solution then?

I once heard someone say: "those who have it the easiest complain the most."


----------



## wyogoob

High Desert Elk said:


> Seems like a lot of anti-oil & gas on this site, or maybe just fossil fuel related energy. So, what's everyone's solution then?
> 
> I once heard someone say: "those who have it the easiest complain the most."


Finally, a response.

Anti-oil & gas? Me? I've worked in oil and gas since 1969. I love oil & gas. Hell, I even live within 2 blocks of a cross-country gasoline pipeline. Pipeline right-of-ways are some of the greatest places to hunt in America.

The frequency of leaks has increased since deregulation. Oil and gas should have to follow the rules to protect the environment and the safety of the people who live, work, and play around their facilities. And oil and gas should be held accountable when they don't. Also, the government should legislate, and enforce, rules that protect the environment and people's safety; not make rules that do the opposite.

My solution:
a) Elect officials that won't kowtow to hydrocarbon.
b) Make the in*tra*state pipeline's operating and maintenance rules the same as the in*ter*state rules.

Top of the page, good.


----------



## High Desert Elk

I too am pro O&G, in fact I live in the heart of the San Juan Basin. I know where you're coming from because I have seen first hand the mindset of the West Texas Oil Man or corporate Houston ideology. Do they care for the Rocky Mountain West? Not particularly. I've been in O&G for nearly the past two decades and have seen these guys obey the Onshore orders and put a good stewardship face on in the BLM FO's only to mutter later at how dumb they are.

Recently, a lot of legislation has come down the pipeline (no pun intended) that keeps a company from getting an APD on fed surface in 3 months. The process now takes a ream of paper and at least 6 months to a year.

I just wish people would take time to fully understand the process before bashing an industry that allows them to enjoy the outdoors the way they can and do...

And yes, "Big Oil" is a real thing but is a mindset more than anything else. The current pricing we see for a barrell of crude and an mscf of gas is seeing Adam Smith's invisible hand concept up close and personal because of "Big Oil".


----------



## wyogoob

High Desert Elk said:


> ............................
> 
> I just wish people would take time to fully understand the process before bashing an industry that allows them to enjoy the outdoors the way they can and do...
> ......................................


I understand the industry pretty well, so I'm going to bash away. Oil n gas can do better to protect the environment.

.


----------



## High Desert Elk

wyogoob said:


> I understand the industry pretty well, so I'm going to bash away. Oil n gas can do better to protect the environment.
> 
> .


As a whole, you are correct. What I'm talking about are the ones who don't understand the industry and bash without knowing why.

I've always said the industry needs to be prudent and responsible. It gets sloppy during booms and you see the leftovers in the bust.


----------



## wyogoob

This week's pipeline explosion was a 36-inch pipeline in Salem PA.

http://www.wtae.com/news/reports-gas-well-on-fire-in-salem-township/39279470

The good news is: _"The disaster is likely the worst in the region involving a pipeline since 2012, when the Columbia Gas Transmission system ruptured in Sissonville, WV, causing significant damage to several residences and Interstate 77" (see Shale Daily, Dec. 13, 2012)._

Looks like they haven't had a disaster around there involving a pipeline since 2012. Can't beat that.

drill, baby, drill


----------



## sawsman

Gee whiz… that'll cook yer hot-dogs and marshmella's!

Good thing nobody got killed.

burn, baby, burn


----------



## wyogoob

Things are looking up in America! We didn't have a (reported) pipeline leak in over two weeks. Here's this week's leak.

April 29, 2016:
_On April 29, a 30-inch Texas Eastern/Spectra Energy pipeline exploded, injuring one man, destroying his home and damaging several others. The incident was reported at 8:17 a.m. near the intersection of Routes 819 and 22 in Salem Township, Westmoreland County, Pa.

_see: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century#2016


----------



## wyogoob

*Will drill 3,925 new wells in the Uintah Basin*

A Canadian company is proposing to drill 3,925 new gas and oil wells in Uintah and Duschesne Counties.

_see: http://www.ubmedia.biz/ubstandard/news/article_9555835a-fe01-11e5-b0cf-77c0f2360d69.html

The Canada based oil and gas company, Crescent Point Energy, is proposing to drill up to 3,925 new oil and gas wells; build 863 miles of roads; 693 miles of pipelines co-located with the proposed roads; 170 miles of cross-country pipelines; 400 miles of trunk pipelines; five salt water disposal wells; five produced water treatment facilities; 20 central tank batteries; four gas processing plants; eight oil storage areas; and, four equipment storage areas. These activities would occur on Federal, tribal trust, allottee, State, and privately-owned or administered lands and mineral leases. _

And see here, especially post #4:

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/21-great-outdoors/143489-uinta-oil-drilling.html

*johnnycake says:* 
_With the current trends in the oil market, I'd be shocked if the company actually pursued this. And that's just for the exploratory well, not to mention full scale production._

*
wyogoob says: *_Not exactly. Although the market has driven the number of active drilling rigs down, the number of those seeking drilling permits, exploratory or otherwise, is up, especially in Wyoming and California. see: http://info.drillinginfo.com/new-dri...y-2016-update/

Tax breaks have dramatically changed the business of drilling for oil and gas. It would be fair to say that the recent natural gas and oil "boom" has been subsidized by the Federal Government.

Almost every dollar it takes to drill an oil or natural gas well, whether it produces or not, is a tax write-off. See the tax breaks here: http://www.investopedia.com/articles...-tax-break.asp

*"Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether the well actually produces or even strikes oil. As long as it starts to operate by March 31 of the following year, the deductions will be allowed."* 
Read more: Oil: A Big Investment With Big Tax Breaks | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/articles...#ixzz3xlT4yWNw

Question:
How did America become oil independent and the biggest natural gas producer?....eventually producing gobs of oil and gas there was no market for?

Answer: 
tax breaks and fracking

You get what you ask for. Drill, baby, drill. _


----------



## High Desert Elk

$107/bbl and $10/mscf is what caused the oversupply. tax breaks and frac'ing had nothing to do with it.


----------



## wyogoob

High Desert Elk said:


> $107/bbl and $10/mscf is what caused the oversupply. tax breaks and frac'ing had nothing to do with it.


Really? Oil is $40/bbl, natural gas is $2/mmbtu and they want to drill 3,925 more wells.

.


----------



## wyogoob

*less environmental impact with horizontal drilling*

http://www.ubmedia.biz/ubstandard/news/article_9555835a-fe01-11e5-b0cf-77c0f2360d69.html

The article says:_

.................According to the company's proposal of the *3,925* new wells, approximately *1,500* of those wells would be horizontally drilled, while another 500 would be drilled and subsequently converted to injection wells...............

_Good news here, much less environmental impact with horizontal drilling. They should do more of it and there should be a tax-break incentive for horizontal drilling onshore.

.


----------



## Catherder

Good information. 

One other factor, at least in Uintah and Duchesne counties. These counties were hit hard economically when the price of oil tanked. They will bend over backwards with incentives to invite new drilling from any source to try and regain some of their previous prosperity.


----------



## wyogoob

Sometimes this thread gets a little too political and I apologize.

They can do better, impact less. This is what it's about. Check out all the well pads and waste ponds down along the Green River in Utah:


Wyoming's Anticline area was once wintering grounds for deer and antelope:


Directional drilling would have been nice on the Anticline:


----------



## wyogoob

*Oil n Gas wells up in the Wyoming Range?*

For a number of years the oil and gas companies have wanted to lease land for gas and oil exploration in the Wyoming Range, parts of the Bridger Teton National Forest. In spite of low prices for oil and gas the push to drill on perhaps the best mule deer country in the nation (Wyoming Deer Regions G & H) has reared its ugly head again.

Environmental Impact Statements (EIS) are ongoing, 40,000 signatures against the plan have already been sent to the Forest Service.

http://sweetwaternow.com/wyoming-range-oil-gas-draft-eis-released/

https://wyomingoutdoorcouncil.org/2...ort-no-leasing-decision-in-the-wyoming-range/

http://wilderness.org/blog/no-oil-drilling-wyomings-bridger-teton-forest-service-decide-soon _"The Forest Service started offering these lands along the gateway to the Wyoming Range for oil and gas leasing in 2005 and 2006. The ensuing outrage by grassroots organizations, sportsmen and political figures created a legal limbo until 2011, when the Forest Service decided to cancel the leases. But two energy companies and some local county commissioners appealed, and the Forest Service withdrew their decision to conduct further environmental analyses." _

See more at: http://wilderness.org/blog/no-oil-d...rest-service-decide-soon#sthash.jSz09zi2.dpuf

Drill, baby, drill


----------



## High Desert Elk

wyogoob said:


> Sometimes this thread gets a little too political and I apologize.
> 
> They can do better, impact less. This is what it's about. Check out all the well pads and waste ponds down along the Green River in Utah:
> 
> Directional drilling would have been nice on the Anticline:


And that, gentlemen, is what horizontal drilling and frac'ing will do for you. Decreased footprint and increased production. O&G has just now been forced to do what could have been done years ago.


----------



## wyogoob

*New Species Found While Cleaning Oil Spills!!*

A positive note on Drill, Baby, Drill, reported from the Onion http://www.theonion.com/article/study-majority-new-marine-life-species-now-discove-52214 : 
_
_
*Study: Majority Of New Marine Life Species Now Discovered While Cleaning Oil Spills *

_WOODS HOLE, MA-Saying such periodic events have vastly expanded the scientific community's understanding of oceanic biodiversity, a study released this week by the Woods Hole Marine Biological Laboratory determined that a significant majority of new marine species are now discovered while cleaning oil spills. "After surveying thousands of scientific papers, our team determined that 68 percent of all aquatic birds, fish, marine reptiles, mollusks, and corals discovered over the past 50 years were first identified and cataloged after volunteers painstakingly cleaned the thick, heavy coating of crude oil from them using a toothbrush and noticed their markings and morphology were unlike anything on record," said researcher Sandra Schultz, who confirmed that over 5,000 species previously unknown to science have been identified in the Gulf of Mexico alone since 2010. "In fact, the average trash bag that a cleanup worker uses to collect the sludge-coated remains of animals that wash ashore typically contains at least one entirely new subspecies of shorebird, sea turtle, or crustacean. Once all the tar is fully removed from the animals' skin, eyes, and lungs, they become prized specimens for study." ................

:smile:
_


----------



## wyogoob

Gasoline pipeline leak causing gasoline shortages and high gasoline prices in the eastern USA. 519 people are working on the cleanup.

http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2016/09/gasoline_pipeline_spill_cleanu.html

Pipeline leaks since my last report:


On August 12, contractors were working on one of the main lines in Sunoco Pipeline LP's Nederland, Texas terminal when crude oil burst through a plug that was supposed to hold the oil back in the pipeline and ignited. The contractors were knocked off the platform to the ground, suffering injuries from the fall and severe burns. 7 contractors were injured.[579]
On September 4, a pipeline broke in Kern County, California, spilling reclaimed water & oil.[580]
On September 5, a pipeline in Bay Long, Louisiana was hit by dredging operations, resulting in a spill of about 5,300 gallons of crude oil into the water.[581]
On September 9, a Colonial Pipeline mainline leak was noticed by workers on another project, in Shelby County, Alabama. Roughly 42,000 gallons of gas leaked from line.[582][583]
On September 10, a Sunoco pipeline ruptured near Sweetwater, Texas. About 800 gallons of crude oil were spilled. The pipeline was just over a year old.

.


----------



## GaryFish

Nothing to see here folks. Move along. Move along.


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## wyogoob

Deregulation. 

You get what you ask for.

.


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## High Desert Elk

Regulation.

You get what you ask (and pay) for...


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## Lonetree

We pay regardless.

With regulation we at least have the power to choose through the market, and the market has incentive to react with market solutions to the regulations.

With deregulation we still pay, we pay with our health, we pay with a lack of wildlife and hunting. And we still pay at the pump to cover the fines and lawsuits. The difference is in the way we pay. With deregulation the costs are socialized, so we all pay and we have no choice in that decision to pay. That is how socialism works. 

Yeah go socialism!!!


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## wyogoob

Center for Biological Diversity's take on pipelines:

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/americas_dangerous_pipelines/


----------



## Lonetree

"According to the data, since 1986 there have been nearly 8,000 incidents (nearly 300 per year on average), resulting in more than 500 deaths (red dots on the video), more than 2,300 injuries (yellow dots on the video), and nearly $7 billion in damage."

Freedom from choice. Like I said, Socialism is awesome! The choice and thought get done for me, it's easy. And, those 500 people were not paying higher gas prices.


----------



## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> "According to the data, since 1986 there have been nearly 8,000 incidents (nearly 300 per year on average), resulting in more than 500 deaths (red dots on the video), more than 2,300 injuries (yellow dots on the video), and nearly $7 billion in damage."
> 
> ................


Yeah, 1986, the first full year of deregulation. Not a very good record since then.

The oil and gas transmission business was the most highly regulated industry in the nation. The government, FERC mostly, set prices and profits. Every dime we spent, within reason, was passed on to the consumer, okie-dokied by the Feds. To a lesser extent they did the same thing with the phone companies, the railroads, cable TV, and the power industry.

Before deregulation the oil and natural gas business wasn't Capitalism, it was more like Socialism. Good grief, that just drove the Conservatives nuts. So when Reagan and his pals took over all that stuff got deregulated, starting in 1985. So off we went, the fox watching the chickens, the pipeline industry policing themselves, even making their own set of rules, based on profit really, not reliability, and at the expense of the environment. Now it's more like the fox is designing the chicken coup.

Gas and oil pipelines are a "risk-based" business now. Managed for risk means it's OK to have a leaky pipeline out in the boonies but not so OK to have a failure around town. So we're not taking care of the pipelines out in the wild like we should, like we use to. Less maintenance, more profit. Problem with that is the pipeline companies are not keeping up with maintenance and upgrades to facilities where towns and cities are rapidly sprawling out into the boonies - the San Bruno California pipeline explosion is a horrific example.

I've been in the oil and gas business since 1969. I wouldn't recommend living too close to a pipeline.


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## High Desert Elk

Lonetree said:


> We pay regardless.
> 
> With regulation we at least have the power to choose through the market, and the market has incentive to react with market solutions to the regulations.
> 
> With deregulation we still pay, we pay with our health, we pay with a lack of wildlife and hunting. And we still pay at the pump to cover the fines and lawsuits. The difference is in the way we pay. With deregulation the costs are socialized, so we all pay and we have no choice in that decision to pay. That is how socialism works.
> 
> Yeah go socialism!!!


With regulation we don't have the power to choose through the market. Gov't intervention is counter-intuitive to a free market and the "invisible hand" at work. The market has to make do with what rules are imposed. The very essence of socialism.

E&P companies do not set the price at the pump. Government (regulation) does. It's a way to control the flow of fossil fuels rather than letting the free market and supply and demand control the cost. Through regulation, APD's are controlled so that only as many are needed are approved. Through regulation, Federal lease sales are postponed or suspended. There are fewer APD's approved today than just a few short years ago. The shortage of APD's will control the produced volume, decreasing quantity and increasing the price at the pump.

Many applaud the downturn in drilling and production, but it is at their own demise. The economy now is worse off than it ever has been, of course, I suppose it depends on what media source you turn to for "the truth". Regulation keeps these products from being shipped over seas to be used by those countries who do not have those resources. It it turn hurts global trade with those nations to provide products we need. It is a proven economic principle that others do what they do best to trade for what they do not do best in. Regulation keeps this from happening as it should.

Too often, people put complete faith in government to ensure that the softer resources will be protected. Are rules needed? Sure. Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with drilling a well. You just need to be responsible how you do it.

Currently, there is a large protest about a pipeline traversing tribal lands. Let the free market decide. You don't want the pipeline, you don't want to pay your share for the use of resources? Cut all supplies of gasoline to this part of the world and then see just how good it all is. Winter can be a long six months without natural gas heat...


----------



## Lonetree

The only way any of that ^ flies is if you are going to blame the Saudi Gubmint "regulations" :mrgreen:, for the current down turn in prices. 

"Too often, people put complete faith in government to ensure that the softer resources will be protected. Are rules needed? Sure. Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with drilling a well. You just need to be responsible how you do it."

I think you have entirely missed the very point in all of this. It has not been done responsibly since it was deregulated. And like I said, we are going to pay the $$$ any which way you slice this. So we might as well be doing it right with an eye to the future.

Either way, it is still all socialism. whether that be government regs, or socialized costs. Which one benefits us hunters the most?


----------



## High Desert Elk

The glut has caused the downturn and low price, OPEC just jumped at the outcome and claimed victory. The so-called deregulation wasn't that at all, recently, with the increase in activity spawning the infamous liberal chant of 'drill baby drill'. The increase came from people trying to make an earning and working around the regulation by drilling on fee/fee acreage. 

What's best for hunters you say? It isn't only about them (us) and CFR 43 Onshore Orders hasn't deregulated anything in the last decade.

Until you work in oil and gas, you will never know what it takes to even drill and complete a well on federal land. It ain't the slam dunk you think it is and more is done on the front side for wildlife and range management than you even realize.

As far as socialized, it unfortunately has to be. We've seen what private ownership of resources does...


----------



## Bax*

Been a while since I heard reference to the Invisible Hand


----------



## Lonetree

Still completely missing the point. OPEC or not, you don't get to say the gubmint sets the price, and then say it's the glut. So more drilling is bad, but regulation is bad, and then it will be we are not drilling enough, right? :grin:

I built infrastructure for drilling rigs, and allot of other industry for over a decade. And as for that range "management" and wildlife. I've been documenting all the "benefits" of that for several years now. 

I get it, you are in oil. My current business model heavily leverages petrol chemicals, and other mineral extraction. And, I was raised on mining and chemical processing dollars. Doesn't mean I'm blind to the fallout of how that all plays out. 

Point here is that since certain parts of the industry were deregulated, there has been serious fall out and repercussions, both to the environment and to peoples health and lives. For the 500 dead people, and the 2300 injured, and the countless ecological impacts that do affect us as hunters, there were no choices to be made. There was no opt out program. Those consequences were thrust on everyone, via socialized risk. I'm not a righty or a lefty, I can defend or frag either side of the isle quite effectively. My point about socialism, is that it is going to exist in some form or another. And when it comes down to socialism via regulation, you do have the choice to choose at the pump, and in the market place, though those choices may be limited. When the risk is socialized, we don't get to choose, we pay with our health, we pay with our lives, and we pay by way of having fewer hunting opportunities. 

I'm not anti drilling, or industry, I've worked industry my whole life. So, I will echo the sentiment of do things responsibly. But the proof is in the pudding on this one. Since 1986 when the pipeline industry, at least, was deregulated, we have paid dearly for socializing those risks. And the more that government is a foreign entity, and convenient whipping boy, instead of being We The People as intended, then the higher the price we will continue to pay as we socialize the risks, while pointing the finger at a government that is supposed to be us, but that we have chosen to sell off for convenience instead.


----------



## High Desert Elk

Apparently I have. I guess you're going to have to spell it out for me. Admittedly, I have not read the entire thread which is why I'm missing the point to all this. 168 posts started months ago is a lot to wade through, especially with all the negativity I see on this forum about oil and gas development.

The glut on fee/fee acreage created the oversupply domestically, OPEC finished it off. The fee/fee acreage is what we see without regulation, but, with regulation, it's hard to push your product in the storage tank. E&P companies have never set the price at the pump, the market and "gubmit" does and has.

I'm not oil & gas, at least not right now. I do know that when I was, the countless hours spent in meetings with BLM and USFS prior to staking and drilling wells, there is a lot that goes into ensuring wildlife resources are kept in the public's best interest. I will make the same argument with anything that provides dependable and reliable energy. Unfortunately, the tradeoff comes at a price. if you want the lifestyle you have, habitat, and eventually hunting opportunity, will take the hit. In order to get the healthy ecosystem you want, it will come with a price. Enter regulation. Clean air requires environmental controls that drive the cost of business up, costing more at the pump (E&P companies need a higher price to sell product, translating to you paying more at the pump long term), light switch, and thermostat. Less money in mine and your pockets, in turn, takes opportunity away. Any foregone opportunity is a cost.

Like it or not, the "socialism" of resources is required to keep the hunting opportunities we all seek. Without it, you get the activity levels we saw in the Permian and Williston Basins, where all the fee/fee activity was and is. That's not to say that gov't has to be the one to regulate.


----------



## Lonetree

The point, at least mine, is that we are going to pay regardless. That is just how it works, laws of physics, economics, etc. It is just a matter of where we pay, how we pay, and when we pay. So you have to look at that over the long term, for the greatest benefit. It costs the same in the long run, whether you pay with your wallet a little at a time, or with blood, short or long term. 

Some perspective: I was recently in the middle of a group email(And greater effort) where several groups were trying to stop a new oil development on FS land. I found myself in a unique situation calling BS on my own side of the argument. I am still against the project(North Slope Platte), but I found my own sides arguments to be just as unscientific and full of **** as the reasoning for the project, and the FS's justifications.

Neither side was actually looking out for wildlife, that was all politics, and both sides think the FS sides with the other side. If not for the gravity of all of it, it would have been comical. One side doesn't want drilling anywhere, and the other thinks nothing should be off limits. Neither side is practical, and they are both completely full of **** and themselves, and again, it would all be comical if not for the gravity of it all.

As for politics, ideology, views to the future, and the way to go about doing, and building things.....I grew up as a kid reading my grandfathers old Speer manuals. It was not until recently that I realized how much of that I had remembered and carried around with me since that time. Having watched Goob over the years, I will bet, or rather I will say that I know that the Drill baby drill, is about more than just a simple "left" or "right" view. It embodies the over simplistic, and nuance lacking BS that both sides are way to guilty of, WRT issues like these.

Edit: "The only things that close faster than the caskets, are the factories"--ZDLR


----------



## High Desert Elk

I agree. Everything has a price, it's as they say "there is no free lunch". I can appreciate the comical situation on both sides, the company I used to work for exhibited really no regard for wildlife or habitat, a severe "west texas attitude". As a hunter you find yourself between a rock and a hardplace. But, in dealing with gov't entities, I guess it depends on the local politics that drive energy development. Those same with the west tex att are the ones to run amok the way we've recently seen.


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## LostLouisianian

I'm just curious how many folks on here have ever worked in the petroleum industry, whether it be on a rig, pipeline or refinery. I am guessing most folks do not have any idea how regulated it still is and how serious about safety and the environment MOST companies are. I am still grateful to this day that no one in our family has died on the job and that my daughters best friend by a stroke of incredible luck was not on DeepWater Horizon when it blew as he was supposed to be.


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## wyogoob

High Desert Elk said:


> I agree. Everything has a price, it's as they say "there is no free lunch". I can appreciate the comical situation on both sides, the company I used to work for exhibited really no regard for wildlife or habitat, a severe "west texas attitude". As a hunter you find yourself between a rock and a hardplace. But, in dealing with gov't entities, I guess it depends on the local politics that drive energy development. Those same with the west tex att are the ones to run amok the way we've recently seen.


That's a good point. It's a culture and you can get caught up in it. After all, they sign my time and expense reports. But I thought the company I worked for cared deeply about the environment. That changed after deregulation and the hands that were old school, that cared about the enviroment, were pushed out.

Since 1998 I've been weaning myself away from hydrocarbons, going over to coal, chemicals, paper and other environmentally-friendly industries. ;-)


----------



## High Desert Elk

Don't get me wrong though, I still prefer working in the petroleum industry, currently in coal fired power generation and not by choice. But, you have to do what's right for all involved. There is no good reason to answer the call of the pocket padding CEO and other "city slicker" investors to drive activity levels up at the expense of everything else; wildlife, habitat, environment, and economy (jobs). The best regulation that could be imposed on O&G is selling price. That in itself would naturally govern activity levels and balance the reliability of jobs and overall environment.


----------



## wyogoob

*Free gasoline in Pennsylvania*

Uh oh, another leaky pipeline:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/of...-impact-on-water-so-far/ar-AAjfysH?li=BBnbfcL

It'll be fine.

I apologize for not keeping up with the latest mishaps and mayhem in the gas n oil industry. I've been busy slinging lead at Wyoming Bighorn Sheep.

Here's the latest pipeline failures and f-ups since my last report:


On September 4, a pipeline broke in Kern County, California, spilling reclaimed water & oil.[580]
On September 5, a pipeline in Bay Long, Louisiana was hit by dredging operations, resulting in a spill of about 5,300 gallons of crude oil into the water.[581]
On September 9, a Colonial Pipeline mainline leak was noticed by workers on another project, in Shelby County, Alabama. At least 252,000 gallons of gasoline leaked from line.[582][583]
On September 10, a Sunoco pipeline ruptured near Sweetwater, Texas. About 33,000 gallons of crude oil were spilled. The pipeline was just over a year old.[584]
On October 11, two Nicor Gas workers were injured, and two townhouse units destroyed in a massive fire and explosion, caused by a gas leak in Romeoville, Illinois.[585]
On October 17, an 8-inch ammonia pipeline started leaking, near Tekamah, Nebraska. A farmer living nearby went to find the source of the ammonia, and was killed by entering the vapor cloud. About 50 people were evacuated from their homes.[586]
On October 19, a contractor in Portland, Oregon hit a 1 inch gas pipeline during work. Within an hour, there were 2 explosions, injuring 8 people, destroying or damaging several buildings, and started a fire. Contractors claim a utility locate was done before work began.[587]
On October 21, an 8 inch Sunoco pipeline ruptured in Lycoming County, Pennsylvania, spilling about 55,000 gallons of gasoline into the Susquehanna River. The river was running high at the time.[588]
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century#2016


----------



## wyogoob

I couldn't help but notice there were no pipeline failures, environmental catastrophes, or pipeline failure-related deaths from September 10 to Oct 11. Keep up the good work fellas! 

See, who needs inspections, pesky rules, all that government oversight?

.


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## High Desert Elk

wyogoob said:


> I couldn't help but notice there were no pipeline failures, environmental catastrophes, or pipeline failure-related deaths from September 10 to Oct 11. Keep up the good work fellas!
> 
> See, who needs inspections, pesky rules, all that government oversight?
> 
> .


Tryin' to come up with something witty, but nothing, nada.

Maybe it's because I'm watching 'Ferris Bueller's Day Off'.

I did go back and read all the posts to this thread. Interesting to see how it started and where it is now...


----------



## wyogoob

High Desert Elk said:


> Tryin' to come up with something witty, but nothing, nada.
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm watching 'Ferris Bueller's Day Off'.
> 
> I did go back and read all the posts to this thread. Interesting to see how it started and where it is now...


Thanks. Who's Ferris Bueller?

.


----------



## Loke

wyogoob said:


> Thanks. Who's Ferris Bueller?
> 
> .


and why does HE get a day off?


----------



## High Desert Elk

"Bueller, Bueller, Bueller"...


----------



## wyogoob

*I'm sorry*



wyogoob said:


> Uh oh, another leaky pipeline:
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/of...-impact-on-water-so-far/ar-AAjfysH?li=BBnbfcL
> 
> It'll be fine.
> 
> I apologize for not keeping up with the latest mishaps and mayhem in the gas n oil industry. I've been busy slinging lead at Wyoming Bighorn Sheep.
> 
> Here's the latest pipeline failures and f-ups since my last report:
> 
> 
> On September 4, a pipeline broke in Kern County, California, spilling reclaimed water & oil.[580]
> On September 5, a pipeline in Bay Long, Louisiana was hit by dredging operations, resulting in a spill of about 5,300 gallons of crude oil into the water.[581]
> On September 9, a Colonial Pipeline mainline leak was noticed by workers on another project, in Shelby County, Alabama. At least 252,000 gallons of gasoline leaked from line.[582][583]
> On September 10, a Sunoco pipeline ruptured near Sweetwater, Texas. About 33,000 gallons of crude oil were spilled. The pipeline was just over a year old.[584]
> On October 11, two Nicor Gas workers were injured, and two townhouse units destroyed in a massive fire and explosion, caused by a gas leak in Romeoville, Illinois.[585]
> On October 17, an 8-inch ammonia pipeline started leaking, near Tekamah, Nebraska. A farmer living nearby went to find the source of the ammonia, and was killed by entering the vapor cloud. About 50 people were evacuated from their homes.[586]
> On October 19, a contractor in Portland, Oregon hit a 1 inch gas pipeline during work. Within an hour, there were 2 explosions, injuring 8 people, destroying or damaging several buildings, and started a fire. Contractors claim a utility locate was done before work began.[587]
> On October 21, an 8 inch Sunoco pipeline ruptured in Lycoming County, Pennsylvania, spilling about 55,000 gallons of gasoline into the Susquehanna River. The river was running high at the time.[588]
> see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century#2016


Hmm, clicked and now I forgot what I was going to say.


hee, hee, hee, hee, hee

.


----------



## wyogoob

Oh, yeah. There was only one major pipeline leak in 'Merica that affected the environment in November. Good job.

Not so good though for rivers in streams close to pipelines in December though.

I'm on it. You're welcome.

.


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## LostLouisianian

I'm confused, if crude oil is just the remains of dinosaurs how is something natural and organic not good for the environment....do tell.


----------



## wyogoob

Timing is right for the thread that keeps on giving.

bump


----------



## ZEKESMAN

LostLouisianian said:


> I'm confused, if crude oil is just the remains of dinosaurs how is something natural and organic not good for the environment....do tell.


Are you really this dense, or is this an attempt at humor? Vic


----------



## paddler

ZEKESMAN said:


> Are you really this dense, or is this an attempt at humor? Vic


He was serious. He also retired from the field.


----------



## OriginalOscar

wyogoob said:


> Timing is right for the thread that keeps on giving.
> 
> bump


I find it amazing to ask kids who's tougher.


----------



## wyogoob

*pipeline incident update*

Geeze, I got behind on this stuff. Looks like during the last couple months of 2016 there was one fatality and three rivers were polluted:


On October 23, a pipeline ruptured on the Seaway Pipeline, in Cushing, Oklahoma, spraying the area with crude oil. About 319,00 gallons of crude were spilled. The cause was from prior excavation damage.[678][679]
On October 31, a Colonial Pipeline mainline exploded and burned in Shelby County, Alabama, after accidentally being hit by a track hoe. One worker died at the scene, and 5 others were hospitalized, with one of those workers dying a month later. The explosion occurred approximately several miles from the 9 September 2016 breach.[680][681][682]
On November 29, an Enterprise Products pipeline exploded in Platte County, Missouri, burning an ethane propane mixture. There were no evacuations or injuries.[683]
On December 2, equipment failure in a Denbury Resources source water pipeline led to a leak of approximately 84,000 gallons of source water into Skull Creek, in Bowman County, North Dakota.[684]
On December 5, a 6-inch Belle Fourche pipeline spilled 529,800 gallons of crude oil, into Ash Coulee Creek, in Billings County, North Dakota.[685][686]
Sometime in December, a natural gas pipeline running beneath Turnagain Arm in Cook Inlet, near Nikiski, Alaska, southwest of Anchorage ruptured, leaking large quantities of natural gas into the water.[687]

2017 went better for Merica compared to 2016. My favorite for 2017 was the leak on the brand new, and everyone's favorite pipeline, Keystone.

*2017*


On January 7, a Colonial Pipeline stubline leaked gasoline into Shoal Creek, in Chattanooga, Tennessee.[688]
On January 14, the Ozark Pipeline, an Enbridge, now Marathon, division, spilled about 18,900 gallons of light oil, at the Lawrence Pump Station, near Halltown, Missouri.[689]
On January 16, a gas pipeline exploded and burned, near Spearman, Texas. There were no injuries.[690]
On January 19, a Tallgrass Pony Express Pipeline failed in Logan County, Colorado, spilling about 420,300 gallons of crude oil. The cause of the failure was unknown.[691]
On January 25, a Magellan pipeline leaked 46,830 gallons (1,115 barrels) of diesel fuel onto private agricultural land, in Worth County, Iowa, near Hanlontown.[692][693]
On January 30, a Texas Department of Transportation crew dug into the 30-inch-diameter Seaway Pipeline, near Blue Ridge, Texas, spraying crude oil across road. About 210,000 gallons of crude were spilled. There were no injuries.[694][679]
On January 31, a DCP pipeline exploded under a runway, at Panola County Airport-Sharpe Field in Texas. There were no injuries, but the airport shut that runway down for an extended amount of time.[695]
On February 10, a Phillips 66 natural gas liquids pipeline (TENDS pipeline Sorrento system)[696] near the Williams-Discovery natural gas plant on US Route 90 near Paradis, Louisiana exploded while being cleaned, killing one worker, and sending another worker to a burn unit. Traffic on US 90 and La 631 was shut down and residents in the area evacuated.[697][698]
On February 15, 2017, a 36-inch-diameter Kinder Morgan natural gas pipeline exploded and burned in Refugio County, Texas. There were no injuries.[699] The flames were visible 50 miles away. Refugio County Chief Deputy Sheriff Gary Wright said the explosion occurred at an apparent weak point in the pipeline that must have required maintenance, but KM disputed the issue.[700] Residents as far as 60 miles away thought it was an earthquake, while others described it as "a thunder roll that wouldn't end."[701] According to the PHMSA incident listing, "the incident was most likely caused by some combination of stress factors on the pipeline." The explosion and resulting fire cost $525,197 in property damage. The pipe was installed in 1964.[702].
On February 27, a crude oil pipeline ruptured in Falls City, Texas, spilling about 42,630 gallons of crude oil. The cause was from internal corrosion.[679]
On March 29, a natural-gas leak of a high-pressure pipeline, in Providence, Rhode Island, owned by Spectra Energy, released about 19 million cubic feet of natural gas, or enough natural gas to heat and keep the lights on for 190,000 homes for a single day. Approximately two gallons of polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) were also released, in the form of contaminated natural gas condensate.[703]
On April 4, a pump on the Dakota Access Pipeline spilled about 84 gallons of oil, at a pump station in Tulra, South Dakota. The leak was not noticed until May 9.[704]
On April 13 and 14, it was discovered that Energy Transfer Partners spilled drilling fluid into two separate wetlands in rural Ohio while constructing the Rover Pipeline. The spills occurred in wetlands near Richland County, Ohio. The spill on the 13th released 2 million gallons of drilling fluid and the spill on the 14th released approximately 50,000 gallons of drilling fluid.[705][706]
On April 21, a Plains All American Pipeline, experienced a crude oil release on the Buffalo Pipeline, near Loyal, Oklahoma. About 19,000 gallons of crude oil was spilled.[707]
On April 22, a 1,050-gallon oil pipeline spill near Bismarck, North Dakota polluted a tributary of the Little Missouri River, but was prevented from flowing into the larger waterway.[708]
On May 8, a Wood River Pipelines (part of Koch Industries) line broke in Warrensburg, Illinois, spill 250 gallons of crude oil.[709]
On May 25, workers were installing a replacement pipeline at a tank battery, near Mead, Colorado, when there was an explosion and fire. One worker was killed, and, 3 others injured.[710][711]
On July 13, a contractor doing maintenance on Magellan's Longhorn Pipeline hit that pipeline, in Bastrop County, Texas. About 87,000 gallons of crude oil were spilled, resulting in evacuations of nearby residents.[712][713]
On July 27, while installing a water pipeline by horizontal drilling, a contractor hit a ONEOK Natural Gas Liquids pipeline, spilling about 126,000 gallons of NGL's, near Watford City, North Dakota.[714]
On August 2, a pipeline leaked up to 1,000 gallons of oil, in Signal Hill, California.[715]
On August 2, a contractor ruptured a jet fuel pipeline, in Parkland, Washington.[716]
On August 2, 2017, a natural gas explosion and fire struck the Minnehaha Academy in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Workers may have been moving a gas meter when the explosion hit, killing two people and injuring at least nine others, according to investigators.[717][718]
On September 22, a gas pipeline exploded and burned in Welda, Kansas. There were no injuries.[719]
On October 18, Louisiana-based oil company LLOG Exploration had a crude oil spill of about 672,000 gallons, 40 miles southeast of Venice, Louisiana, citing the cause as a cracked pipeline under the Gulf of Mexico.[720]
On October 23, 2017, at a facility owned by EDC-Timken, operated and maintained by Columbia Gas Transmission in Navarre, Ohio, an unintended natural gas release was noted by the onsite company personnel. While investigating the sound, the single bolt hinged closure, that appeared to be the source of the release, failed. The closure failure fatally injured one technician. The equipment was installed in 1989.[721] The leak just south of Canton, Ohio, forced authorities to evacuate a neighborhood.[722]
On November 16, the Keystone pipeline leaked 210,000 gallons of tar sands dilbit, near Amherst, South Dakota. The pipeline was shut down within 15 minutes of the leak's discovery. [723].
On November 16, three men were injured in a gas pipeline fire in northeastern Weld County, Colorado. One later died of his injuries.[724][725]
On November 20, 2017, Kinder Morgan's Connecticut Expansion Project's pipeline test at the Agawam, Massachusetts compressor station discharged 16,500 gallons of hazardous wastewater onto the soil of the compressor station yard; the wastewater contained heavy metals, lead, & carcinogens such as tetrachloroethylene & phthalate. Kinder Morgan blamed subcontractor Henkels & McCoy for an operator error.[726]
On November 20, 2017, Kinder Morgan's Connecticut Expansion Project's pipeline test at the Agawam, Massachusetts compressor station discharged 16,500 gallons of hazardous wastewater onto the soil of the compressor station yard; the wastewater contained heavy metals, lead, & carcinogens such as tetrachloroethylene & phthalate. Kinder Morgan blamed subcontractor Henkels & McCoy for an operator error. [727]
On November 20, a Consumers Energy 22-inch-diameter gas transmission pipeline carrying gas at 600 psi exploded and burned, in Orion Township, Michigan, knocking out the county 911 system, and causing some evacuations. There were no injuries.[728]
On November 29, 2017, in Richmond, Massachusetts, a Kinder Morgan pipeline overpressure triggered a relief valve to open, releasing natural gas for a blowdown that lasted 40 minutes and sounded like a jet engine. The gas escaped into a nearby residential neighborhood. Firefighters responded to the leak and closed the road. When contacted, pipeline personnel had no idea that there was a problem, and offered no reason for their equipment malfunction.[729]
On December 5, a father and his adult son were killed when a stuck tractor they were trying to free ruptured and ignited a 20-inch-diameter gas pipeline in Lee County, Illinois. Two others were seriously injured.[730] The explosion was on Kinder Morgan's Natural Gas Pipeline Company of America, a 9,200-mile long system that transports natural gas from Texas and Louisiana to Chicago; Kinder Morgan issued a force majeure notice on the pipeline indicating a "third-party strike" as the reason for taking part of the Illinois Lateral out of service.[731]
On December 6, a gas pipeline exploded and burned, in Eddy County, New Mexico. Residents within 2 miles of the site were evacuated, and, several roads in the area were closed. There were no injuries.[732]
On December 13, an Energy Transfer Partners gas pipeline exploded and burned, in Burleson County, Texas. There were no injuries reported.[733]
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century#2016


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## OriginalOscar

Option to consider? https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/5-reasons-cow-farts-matter-and-could-destroy-the-w/


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## Springville Shooter

Ok, this thread clearly illustrates that we have a problem. So what’s the solution? ————SS


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## High Desert Elk

Springville Shooter said:


> Ok, this thread clearly illustrates that we have a problem. So what's the solution? ----SS


Solar...


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## backcountry

Likely a mixture of renewable energy. I've heard more interest in nuclear over the last few years but the big hurdle on that will always be security and human error rates.

Less cradle to grave product design and more cradle to cradle (less energy on manufacturing).

Better designed homes and businesses that include passive solar and the like (reduced heating and cooling bills).

More than that and we are getting into the weeds.

That said, solar has major hurdles given many of the rare earth metals needed for it (and most of our modern technology) are not found in North America. We rely on China who has been known to tightly control export quotas.

There are no easy solutions.


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## Critter

The biggest problem that I see with solar is that it only generates power when the sun is out. In some areas this would be a great idea but others not so good. 

You are still going to need a gas, coal, hydro, or nuclear plant to provide the power for the rest of the day. That is unless you want to have a battery back up for the solar and then deal with that waste.

I like the bicycle idea. Hook up a generator to the bicycle and if you want some power just start pedaling. You can watch TV, charge your phone or a number of other things and get into shape as you are doing it.


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## High Desert Elk

Wind farms then.


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## backcountry

Critter,
There are solar facilities that continue producing energy through the night, like the Ivanpah complex. It stores heat in molten salt that continues energy prodiction even once the sun is down. Photovoltaics definitely match your critique but we are steadily moving past them being the only option.


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## High Desert Elk

Footprint is much larger for solar and wind to produce the same MW's. Cleaner, sure. Loss of habitat, absolutely. Loss of acreage for hunting, most definitely.


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## backcountry

High Desert Elk said:


> Footprint is much larger for solar and wind to produce the same MW's. Cleaner, sure. Loss of habitat, absolutely. Loss of acreage for hunting, most definitely.


Seems true from what I've read. Solar facilities, including unique ones like Ivanpah, have a massive footprint. The soil might at well be sterilized and vegetation is obliterated. Definite loss of habitat for much longer periods of time.

No such thing as a free lunch.


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## Packout

All solar and wind facilities use extreme amounts of "oil" before they ever produce one watt.


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## backcountry

Packout said:


> All solar and wind facilities use extreme amounts of "oil" before they ever produce one watt.


Isn't that a bit of a red herring? Don't all facilities require energy during initial construction which means fossil fuels given our current infrastructure?

Its actually one of the concerns about current fossil fuels extraction. In a very generic sense, we are gradually having to expend more energy to extract fuel sources because of location, quality, etc. I've forgotten the term for the issue as I've gotten older. But generally speaking the net gain of energy is shrinking over time. Its very similar to the problems down the road for Bitcoin "mining".

I'm not sure of the apples to apples comparison of fossil fuel consumption to get different types of energy facilities running but I bet most of us would be shocked.


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## High Desert Elk

10 acres required for 1 MW of solar. One day renewables may be advanced enough to provide the demand needed, but today it is used only as a compliment, not a substitute.

About 20 wind turbines went up a couple years ago by Monticello. Talk about an eyesore and some are worried about a single wellpad in the area capable of producing way more energy...


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## DallanC

The "Greenies" have no idea how bad "green tech" is for our world. The amount of toxins and pollution to generate magnets for motors, solar panels etc. There are so many bad by-products from these mfg process china doesnt even know what to do with them all, so they are just dumping this toxic and radio active stuff in a man made "lake" they created.

When that gets into the watertable, good bye humans.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...er-experiment-Pollution-disastrous-scale.html










-DallanC


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## backcountry

To be fair, my "green" friends know as much as non-"greenies," on average. There are zealots on both sides who enthusiastically push ideas without knowing or admitting the complexities.

Balancing cost, economies, ecological impact and carbon footprint is a herculean task that plays more in the gray than binary black and white. And that equation isn't static through time (see current dilemma with China banning import of American recyclables for a similar unexpected change, though unrelated to extraction). 

And its not like there aren't human tolls to fossil fuel extraction. Granted, I would be remiss if I didn't admit environmentalist and much of the political left loves to label that industry as boogeyman. 

I have no clue what the future holds for American energy but I haven't seen reason to believe we will go completely off fossil fuels in my lifetime.


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## OriginalOscar

Great film with aged Do Gooders admitting they didn't fully understand nuclear power. Still our best future option. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora's_Promise


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## wyogoob

*I suggest reading the whole thread*



Springville Shooter said:


> Ok, this thread clearly illustrates that we have a problem. So what's the solution? ----SS


Really, what is the problem that is clearly illustrated here?

Anyway, the solution: stop electing anti-enviromental politicians.

Sadly, the oil and gas industry needs to be policed, but deregulation has made it easier for them to improve their margin, the planet be damned.

.


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## wyogoob

*I work for all the big polluters*



High Desert Elk said:


> 10 acres required for 1 MW of solar. One day renewables may be advanced enough to provide the demand needed, but today it is used only as a compliment, not a substitute.
> 
> About 20 wind turbines went up a couple years ago by Monticello. Talk about an eyesore and some are worried about a single wellpad in the area capable of producing way more energy...


Call me crazy but I am worried about a single well pad. Worked for a gas n oil company for 30 years.

10 acres? That must be counting the access road. And most of the new ones are at least 1.2 MW.

I make a living working oil, gas, chemical, paper and power. For a number of years I worked coal-fired power plant turnarounds and I made sure that the people that signed my time sheets knew that I hated windmills. Now that I retired I don't give a sheet, windmills are fine.....just saying. Like em or not windmills are gonna be around for generations to come. Coal-fired power plants? Probably not, and many are scheduled to be shut down, replaced by natural gas and hopefully renewable sources like wind, solar, maybe even algae.

Hey, I grew up on a farm. In the 50s and 60s every farm had a windmill. Here's a cool picture of "old n new" windmills close to the pipeline system I worked on in Illinois and not all that far from where I grew up.


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## High Desert Elk

Well, I ain't retired yet and our local economy still relies on what the modern conservationist deems as wickedness and evil when it comes to power and energy.

The modern conservationist has the luxury to condemn fossil fuel because of the easy-street-life it provides.

Ironic how the conservationist of yesterday welcomed the advancement of fossil fuel energy when wind and solar is all they had.

Drill Baby Drill? BRING IT ON!!!

Now lets discuss the manufacturing process for solar panels, wind turbines, and batteries...


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## wyogoob

High Desert Elk said:


> Well, I ain't retired yet and our local economy still relies on what the modern conservationist deems as wickedness and evil when it comes to power and energy.
> 
> The modern conservationist has the luxury to condemn fossil fuel because of the easy-street-life it provides.
> 
> Ironic how the conservationist of yesterday welcomed the advancement of fossil fuel energy when wind and solar is all they had.
> 
> Drill Baby Drill? BRING IT ON!!!
> 
> Now lets discuss the manufacturing process for solar panels, wind turbines, and batteries...


Yeah, great, just don't build a house too close to a pipeline.

Now lets talk about the how each the oil n gas industry has fewer and fewer rules to follow protecting the environment.

.


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## wyogoob

*"When cornered, change the subject" - Donald J Trump*



High Desert Elk said:


> ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> Now lets discuss the manufacturing process for solar panels, wind turbines, and batteries...


Well worth discussing, start a separate thread.

.


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