# No Any Bull Rut Hunts!?



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Anyone have a theory as to why we do not have any Elk hunts during the rut on the Any Bull units? It appears that there are no hunts (except for youth) between 9/11 and 10/3.

It's a bit disappointing. I was really hoping to get a multi-season tag to accompany my other hunts this fall. I probably still will because I'll be up there scouting but it is disappointing to me.


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## Bowhunter50 (Oct 14, 2014)

Are you talking about archery rut hunts on any bull? Or wanting a rifle rut hunt on any bull?


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Either or.

I didn't see an option to hunt Any Bull Elk between 9/11 and early October with any weapon type. Extended areas not included of course.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

That's how it's always been(well, side from archery dates moving a bit here and there), and I ask the same question as you. Just part of the MGMT plan. Since ML for GS elk is in November, that's the gap that occurs. That's why that youth hunt is such a big perk.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

KineKilla said:


> Either or.
> 
> I didn't see an option to hunt Any Bull Elk between 9/11 and early October with any weapon type. Extended areas not included of course.


Extended archery is the only way currently.


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

KineKilla said:


> Anyone have a theory as to why we do not have any Elk hunts during the rut on the Any Bull units? It appears that there are no hunts (except for youth) between 9/11 and 10/3.


So my question is, how would this effect the herds if there was a any bull rut hunt for the general public? Would this wipe them out, which I think it would for the first bit. Then I see it pushing them even farther back in than they already are. But that's just my theory. Don't get me wrong, I would like to hunt the rut, but so would everyone else.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

All you need to look at is the success rate for the any weapon LE hunts. With a 95-98% success rate it wouldn't take too long to take out most of the bulls.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

middlefork said:


> All you need to look at is the success rate for the any weapon LE hunts. With a 95-98% success rate it wouldn't take too long to take out most of the bulls.


I mean.. the unit management, small number of tags, public access, etc... all play a role. You are over-estimating the harvest by quite a bit too.

For fun I pulled LE success, if you are wondering for elk:

Archery: 30%
Any Weapon: 72% (Edit: I noticed in the data there were two AW hunts listed lower. A Manti and a Wasatch. If I add them to the Data harvest drops to 71%)
Muzzleloader: 70%

This was taking all hunters in the field and all harvests into account. I excluded the total permit numbers for obvious reasons. This does not include the CWMU or Multi-season hunts.

I believe GS would be lower based on those restrictions I listed above, but not sure the difference that would happen between current harvest and Rut-Harvest. Does anyone have GS % since the DWR doesn't even list those on it's page?

Not advocating for rut GS hunts... Just keeping things in perspective :mrgreen:

EDIT: Just for fun I will add, on another thread I pulled this data on an 8 year span for Wasatch. What stood out was their highest AW (2nd season) in 2018 was almost 79% while the Multi-Season was over 96%. Pays to have that tag! So what is the harvest difference for AW General Bull vs Multi-Season GS now? Could be significant....


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Could we not theoretically have an archery season during the rut? I don't advocate for blasting all the elk we have by any means, and in fact I'm not even complaining (very much) about the current dates.

I just love bugling elk so much that it's a shame I can't hunt any of them during the most active time of the year.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Any bull hunt is a maximum opportunity hunt vs the maximum quality hunt of the LE's. Its meant to have the highest hunter participation and inversely a lower harvest, vs the low hunter participation and greater harvest of the LE units.

They will never allow rifle hunting during the rut on the Open bull units. They would change them all over to LE units before allowing a rut hunt.

-DallanC


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

This year is as close as you'll ever get to the rut on the any bull.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

They would never do rifle GS in the rut because it would only take a few years and a majority of the bulls would be in freezers...not all, but a majority.

I don't understand why Utah doesn't allow some GS archery in the rut. The current dates are bogus IMO, and I don't hunt archery these days, and havent for over 10 years.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Well, the dates may suck but since I'll be up there scouting I'll probably get a tag anyways and give it hell.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

What's the harvest success of the youth elk hunters that are actually hunting during some of the rut? I think generally speaking it's pretty low from what I am told. But I couldn't locate any information on last years harvest. However your only talking about 500 hunters in the field. 

I think the DWR would have to limit the public "any weapon" hunter opportunity because the elk could get hammered. Idaho allows over the counter archery during the rut. I don't see why this couldn't be an option for Utah personally.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I’ve seen way more rut action in the beginning off the rifle hunt then the end of archery the last couple years but there’s been enough bulls sniffing around and bugling here and there the last days of archery to make it interesting. This years rifle hunt should be good with an earlier start date but you never know. 2016 was a wild year for rut action during the rifle season and had the latest start date over the last 5 years. My point is there are any bull rut hunts every year just not during the peak week so to speak. The DWR holding a general bull hunt during peak week seems irresponsible at best.


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## cdbright (Aug 24, 2016)

i cant wait till the week after my wedding this year for ELk archery (Sep - 7-11), like ridge said , prob the closest we will ever get, NO TIME FOR HONEY MOONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mrgreen:


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

cdbright said:


> i cant wait till the week after my wedding this year for ELk archery (Sep - 7-11), like ridge said , prob the closest we will ever get, NO TIME FOR HONEY MOONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mrgreen:


You sir are a brave man!!


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

cdbright said:


> i cant wait till the week after my wedding this year for ELk archery (Sep - 7-11), like ridge said , prob the closest we will ever get, NO TIME FOR HONEY MOONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mrgreen:


Well, if she expects the honeymoon to last more than a week or into ANY hunting season you still have time to rethink your life choices.

May have been a close thing happening there.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

cdbright said:


> i cant wait till the week after my wedding this year for ELk archery (Sep - 7-11), like ridge said , prob the closest we will ever get, NO TIME FOR HONEY MOONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You are indeed a brave man CD!! You are either really smart and know how to pick em or not the sharpest tool in the shed! Haha

Also, before you risk your marriage on archery elk this year, it isn't the best archery season for rut action as far as the end date. Last year we ended later so theoretically last year was closer. I think archery ended on the 16th 4/5 years ago which is about as good as it gets for archery dates being in the rut. I think ridge was referring to the general rifle hunt being close this year because it starts early 10/3 this year and 10/2 next year I believe which puts rifle as close as you can get to the rut. It will cycle back to a 10/8 ish start date in 2022/23 and the archery end date will cycle back to more of a rut hut.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

This year is the earliest the general rifle elk season dates get. It resets next year and the general season elk hunt will begin on Oct 9th in 2021 which is the worst dates for rifle if you play the rut. Don’t believe me, go pull up the Utah big game guidebook from 2010 which has the same date structure as 2021 (assuming the DWR follows precedent).

I depend on rutting elk for my general bull hunt and the dates this year are the best, I’m pretty excited about it.

Next year will be the best dates for archery elk for both LE and general any bull, the hunt will end on 9/17. If you were wanting to cash in LE points for archery elk then 2021 would be the year to do it. I haven’t hunted the Uintas with my bow in many years but next year will be tempting.

I think this years early archery dates lend themselves to bow hunting high country mule deer and would be advantageous for that style of spot and stalk as I think big Muleys are more easily found earlier in August.

Dates matter and I’m a big fan of long term planning!


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## cdbright (Aug 24, 2016)

Plan on a honey moon later in the year (she originally picked deer hunting opener so we had a change already, figured i wont get another one of those ) , i always go with the multi season tag so i get that chance with rifle/muzzy as well. I thought they were not going to let "multi-season rifle be the same as the general season rifle be the same dates or am i wrong?


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## Fogtripper (Jun 6, 2016)

Going to bump this thread out of frustration.

The AW seasons are ludicrous in Utah, so badly timed. I am primarily an archery and muzzleloader hunter, and even though they are not as "primative" as they used to be, they should be closer to the rut than the AWGS hunts. Combine the deer GS hunts, and the insane number of RAZRs and accessible through virtually every square mile of what used to be wilderness, and I can see the herds pretty much wiped out beyond the gated private communities. In just the relatively short time I have lived in Utah (Northeastern Mountains), 11 years have seen a DRAMATIC decimation of the herds that we'd routinely see wintering. The Utah DNR appears to be one of the worst managed wildlife agencies I have had experienced.

I came from Pennsylvania, where primitive hunts were near/overlapping the rut, and general rifle beginning the week after thanksgiving (deer). Contrast that with Utah, where AWGS is hugging the rut, and it is like a college tailgating party in every possible parking area (and ones created on the fly) with campers (placed sometimes months in advance to save a spot). Utah hunting is a virtual circus. It seems actual herd management is taking a distant backseat to entertainment of the largest numbers of hunters possible.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Fogtripper said:


> Going to bump this thread out of frustration.
> 
> The AW seasons are ludicrous in Utah, so badly timed. I am primarily an archery and muzzleloader hunter, and even though they are not as "primative" as they used to be, they should be closer to the rut than the AWGS hunts. Combine the deer GS hunts, and the insane number of RAZRs and accessible through virtually every square mile of what used to be wilderness, and I can see the herds pretty much wiped out beyond the gated private communities. In just the relatively short time I have lived in Utah (Northeastern Mountains), 11 years have seen a DRAMATIC decimation of the herds that we'd routinely see wintering. The Utah DNR appears to be one of the worst managed wildlife agencies I have had experienced.
> 
> I came from Pennsylvania, where primitive hunts were near/overlapping the rut, and general rifle beginning the week after thanksgiving (deer). Contrast that with Utah, where AWGS is hugging the rut, and it is like a college tailgating party in every possible parking area (and ones created on the fly) with campers (placed sometimes months in advance to save a spot). Utah hunting is a virtual circus. It seems actual herd management is taking a distant backseat to entertainment of the largest numbers of hunters possible.


Are you talking about the LE early rifle elk hunts? This thread is about general season elk hunts not being in the rut. There's a guy on MM from the basin that is always complaining about how badly managed our herds are. I'll tell you what I've told him on many occasions. Get out of the basin and things seem to be much better.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Fogtripper said:


> The AW seasons are ludicrous in Utah, so badly timed. I am primarily an archery and muzzleloader hunter, and even though they are not as "primative" as they used to be, they should be closer to the rut than the AWGS hunts. Combine the deer GS hunts, and the insane number of RAZRs and accessible through virtually every square mile of what used to be wilderness, and I can see the herds pretty much wiped out beyond the gated private communities. In just the relatively short time I have lived in Utah (Northeastern Mountains), 11 years have seen a DRAMATIC decimation of the herds that we'd routinely see wintering. The Utah DNR appears to be one of the worst managed wildlife agencies I have had experienced.


Really... very little of that is actually true. Lately the Elk rut has been starting later and its actually been better during ML season than Rifle for the past several years. 

Razors everywhere? They only issue around 90,000 deer tags in Utah currently. They used to 280,000 tags. You simply have absolutely no idea what crowded is until you experience that. True, Razors didnt exist then, but tons of Jeeps, Powerwagons and anything else with 4x4... even lots of dune buggies and sand rails rolling around the back country. Add on that all the foot soldiers and horsemen. You couldnt find a drainage or ridge without a dozen spots of orange on it. The shooting going on was insane, reminded me of Farmington bay come duck season opener. As for wilderness, its all around my home ... I've not see any wheeled vehicles in any of that. Possible someone sneaks in rarely... but none on the hunts.

The doom and gloom of "herds being decimated" is completely overblown, it just hasnt happened. Herds have been increasing and hunting is actually been pretty good compared to 20 years ago. You obviously havent seen true decimation if you are using the term here. The winter of '83 and '94 were truly decimating, +70% winter kill. There were canyons above my house with entire herds of elk dead due to being snowbound. IIRC, we had snow piled up 14' at the house with the tractor from clearing the drive way. A skier died at Snowbird falling in the powder... which btw, they got 8ft of in a 24 hour period. 

I gotta agree with Ridgetop... you need to get out of your little neck of the woods and look around the state, its not doom and gloom... not by a long shot.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I always like it when someone moves to Utah and then starts complaining about how the herds are managed without knowing a thing about them.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Sounds like if you're complaing about all the pullouts being full of vehicles and campers / 5th wheels being in all the "spots", you're more a part of the problem than the solution.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Heh, all i'm going to say is the last couple of years have made things "interesting" in the mountains. Just about more of everything, and even a few things we hadn't had much of before, can now be found in relative abundance.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Hope you’re talking about 🦃!


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Heh, all i'm going to say is the last couple of years have made things "interesting" in the mountains. Just about more of everything, and even a few things we hadn't had much of before, can now be found in relative abundance.


Heh, once more, don’t be talking too loud. You fit right into that category for most utah resident hunters


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## Pokesmole (Oct 29, 2016)

For the last few years I’ve had an idea. Not sure if it’s even a good one. But I’d like to see a limited muzzy tag on the general units. Similar to how they do the deer ones. Just during the elk rut, line it up with general muzzy deer and put out a small amount of tags in each any bull unit for the draw. Would give more opportunities on bulls and would add more options to slow point creep (even just slightly)


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

…🍿 won’t happen unless the archery get theirs too


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Pokesmole said:


> For the last few years I’ve had an idea. Not sure if it’s even a good one. But I’d like to see a limited muzzy tag on the general units. Similar to how they do the deer ones. Just during the elk rut, line it up with general muzzy deer and put out a small amount of tags in each any bull unit for the draw. Would give more opportunities on bulls and would add more options to slow point creep (even just slightly)


I like it.


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## Pokesmole (Oct 29, 2016)

ridgetop said:


> I like it.
> [/QUOTE


How would I go about pitching the idea? I’d like to get more involved


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Pokesmole said:


> How would I go about pitching the idea? I’d like to get more involved


You could send packout a pm and ask him. You could reach out to different rac and wildlife board members and see if they think it's a worthwhile discussion item. You could reach out to some of the wildlife groups and see what they think of the idea. Keep bringing it up on this and other forums and maybe it will get some traction. FYI, several years ago, I asked on this forum what people thought about having a late season muzzleloader deer hunt on the general units but have it as a LE draw tag. Well, a couple years later it came to be. So someone with some influence also liked the idea. Good luck.


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