# Genral Deer Application Question



## ARROWHNTR (Dec 11, 2008)

I have a question I cannot seem to find an answer for. If you put in for Gen Deer tag and do not draw your first choice, but draw your second you don't loose your points plus gain one, that is clear. My question is will your points help you on your second/third choice or do you have to wait until all first choice apps are drawn and then if there are tags left you are eligible to draw one? 

Thanks in advance


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

Yes, your points will give you an advantage when drawing choices 2-5. You have stumbled upon the loophole that has a number of people frustrated with Utah's preference point system.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

It seems like it is a number of internet forum people who have the biggest problem with it. 

I told a few friends about it and their response was "really? that's awesome. I'm going to do that."

Most people outside of the forums have no idea of the loophole IMO.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> It seems like it is a number of internet forum people who have the biggest problem with it.
> 
> I told a few friends about it and their response was "really? that's awesome. I'm going to do that."
> 
> Most people outside of the forums have no idea of the loophole IMO.


I agree. I was oblivious to it until I got on here.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Three types of people:

Those who missed the boat---Don't like the loophole
Those who got onboard early----Love the loophole
Those who got on board early but say they hate the loophole-----Filthy liars


-----SS


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Springville Shooter said:


> Three types of people:
> 
> Those who missed the boat---Don't like the loophole
> Those who got onboard early----Love the loophole
> ...


You forgot type 4

Those who have had their head in the sand and have since discovered it and are on board loving it. I'm in that group  I'm not going to miss out on another rifle hunt like I did last year until it is shut down.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Those who got on board late are in the best situation! Think about it... they are so far behind the top point holders that it will take forever to finally hit that top point pool.
I've hunted every year since 2009 and even burned my points once to guarantee that my whole group drew a specific tag. Now back in the game, since I am so far behind I should draw my second choice tag for darn near 30 years before I ever have a chance at that first choice I put! I'm in a pretty good spot!

I'm an advocate for change to this system, but until that happens... game on Wayne!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I just show pity on someone who missed the boat each year and let them apply with me so we are both guaranteed our 2nd choice but out of the running for our first choice after splitting the points. 

See what a nice guy I am?:mrgreen:--------SS


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Thousand Lake Plateau any legal weapon.... 1-25.5 odds for general season hunt. Funny how applicant numbers keep going up each year as the odds get worse....


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Call me a dumb *** but I've put in every year for a tag/unit that no one wanted.Always under subscribed as it was under objective, there were no deer etc.
Last year for the first time it sold out because everybody that couldn't draw their first choice used it as a second so they could hunt the extended. Does that now bug me that I might not draw the unit I want to hunt because someone else playing the game decides they want that tag as 2nd choice just to hunt the extended. Never even setting foot in the unit they draw? BS as far as far as I'm concerned.
But never fear this old dog can still learn new tricks.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't use it because I'm dedicated, but i do use it for my daughter.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

It does suck, it is BS, it is unfair, it should be changed, etc etc. The moral to the story here is that if you want to get the most out of the very limited opportunity that we all must share, you have to spend some time figuring things out and be a little savvy. Just as important as actual scouting is application scouting. You can't hunt what you don't have a tag for. Those who study the odds and those who study the rules will always have an advantage over those who don't put a second thought into applications until the last week of February. 

I put more energy and effort into the western big game draws than in my financial portfolio. You reap what you sow....I will probably never get rich but I will surely hunt every year.------SS


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

It's about as unfair as a taking a deduction on your taxes. Or knowing where good deer hunting is. 

It's no secret how this works and is available to anyone who chooses to take advantage of it.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

derekp1999 said:


> Those who got on board late are in the best situation! Think about it... they are so far behind the top point holders that it will take forever to finally hit that top point pool.
> I've hunted every year since 2009 and even burned my points once to guarantee that my whole group drew a specific tag. Now back in the game, since I am so far behind I should draw my second choice tag for darn near 30 years before I ever have a chance at that first choice I put! I'm in a pretty good spot!
> 
> I'm an advocate for change to this system, but until that happens... game on Wayne!


This describes my situation to a "T" or however the phrase goes. Did the same thing for a group App. and it worked out well for us. Since the Wildlife Board and the DWR seem totally disinterested in doing the right thing and fixing it, it seems like one has no choice but to use the situation to his advantage. Game on is right!


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

If you look at last year.

The Unit to put in for your first choice is Fish Lake Thousand Lakes the unit only gave out 32 rifle tags and took 4/5 points to draw. Only 667 residents applied for it as a first choice. That means that 635 people were truly potentially rigging the system. 

Others are just drawing one of their 4 other choices and gaining a point. Most other rifle units are a good chance at 2 and almost a sure thing at 3 points. So, unless you were one of the 635 people odds are that you weren't really rigging the system for rifle and were fortunate to draw your other choices while gaining a point.

Out of the 86,550 permits, that isn't a lot. 

I think people may be blowing this idea way out of proportion.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Muscle...
You start gaming the system when you draw that rifle tag that takes 2 or 3 points EVERY YEAR for the next decade (or more) because you've got the points but it's your second choice instead of every three years like the guys that list it as their first choice!


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

middlefork said:


> Call me a dumb *** but I've put in every year for a tag/unit that no one wanted.Always under subscribed as it was under objective, there were no deer etc.
> Last year for the first time it sold out because everybody that couldn't draw their first choice used it as a second so they could hunt the extended. Does that now bug me that I might not draw the unit I want to hunt because someone else playing the game decides they want that tag as 2nd choice just to hunt the extended. Never even setting foot in the unit they draw? BS as far as far as I'm concerned.
> But never fear this old dog can still learn new tricks.


I would bet if you looked at the numbers, I think it may be a bi-product of the hunt becoming more popular than someone scheming the system to take advantage of it.

There doesn't appear to be a lot of scheming in the draw stats, it is more of people drawing their second choice.

I bet if you took a straw poll of Utah Residents and asked them how many General Season Deer Points that they have. A surprising number would say they didn't know that general season had deer points. A number would think that they lost their deer points after drawing their second-fifth choice from last year. A number would think that the general season points allow them to apply for the Henry Mountains.

The issue is people not reading and just applying, then complaining when they do not draw. Or throwing all five choices around at different hunts to try and draw one of them without having a plan or reason - just hoping to get a tag.

The hunter that can read and do the research in all states draw systems can hunt every year. The hunter that chooses not to read and chooses not to do the research in different draws, will not hunt as often.

Right now, it isn't a participation trophy. It's a game (as all draws are) and if you want to win you have to succeed with the rules and find ways to be more efficient with the rules.

It's like a guy that has been putting in for a Arizona Rut Elk Hunt for 20 years with probability of drawing of 1% being mad at the guy that drew a late season hunt in the same unit in his first year with a probability to draw of 25%. To the guy it isn't fair he is still waiting for his elk hunt, but at the same time in those 20 years he could have potentially hunted the same unit with the later date 2/3 times and been guaranteed to hunt it at least once.

Is the system fair the way it is? I believe so

Are there people abusing the system? Not as many as people think

It all comes down to being mad when you don't draw and there isn't a system other than OTC where you are not mad when you don't draw. Unless you are just taking shots in the dark to hunts with horrible draw odds.

End Rant


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Catherder... there's no impetus to change it. I've watched and listened to WB meetings where guys behind the mics joke that they draw their second choice tags every year. They are @ss deep in this too & if they close the "loophole" their just like the rest of us... and we all know they won't let that happen!


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

derekp1999 said:


> Muscle...
> You start gaming the system when you draw that rifle tag that takes 2 or 3 points EVERY YEAR for the next decade (or more) because you've got the points but it's your second choice instead of every the years like the guys that list it as their first choice!


Right now at 32 permits a year a person at 2 points playing the system can hunt for 7/8 years before drawing the Fish Lake Thousand Lakes Rifle Tag.

If you take FL 1000 lakes away, then people that wanted to rig the system would load up on Zion or Pine Valley - which has a max points of 3. Unless you go the group route, you will lose your points every 3/4 years.

Given on 635 people were potentially rigging the system in Utah (http://www.biggamedrawodds.com/big....ral.deer.plateau.thousand.lakes.unit.25B.html), I don't think it would be as big of a deal as people are making it out to be.

There may be a select few rigging the system, but the numbers say that less than 1% could be doing it.

People are just flinging apps at all units and gaining points without realizing it, until they draw their unit finally.


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## ARROWHNTR (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks for the responses guys with 3 points I am in for the loophole


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

middlefork said:


> Call me a dumb *** but I've put in every year for a tag/unit that no one wanted.Always under subscribed as it was under objective, there were no deer etc.
> Last year for the first time it sold out because everybody that couldn't draw their first choice used it as a second so they could hunt the extended. Does that now bug me that I might not draw the unit I want to hunt because someone else playing the game decides they want that tag as 2nd choice just to hunt the extended. Never even setting foot in the unit they draw? BS as far as far as I'm concerned.
> But never fear this old dog can still learn new tricks.


Im with you middlefork. Ive always done the same thing with same unit it sounds like. I had actually heard about the loophole prior but never gave it much thought. "Why worry about when my first choice was a guarantee because its far from the most popular and I dont need points to draw it". That was until last year when my dumbass was cut out for sleeping . My eyes are wide open now. Game on! I should draw my first choice every year playing the loophole. Oh, and I will probably check out some of the 1 or 2 point draw units I hear good things about here and there if I choose.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Right now at 32 permits a year a person at 2 points playing the system can hunt for 7/8 years before drawing the Fish Lake Thousand Lakes Rifle Tag.
> 
> If you take FL 1000 lakes away, then people that wanted to rig the system would load up on Zion or Pine Valley - which has a max points of 3. Unless you go the group route, you will lose your points every 3/4 years.
> 
> ...


The website you're looking at is showing you old data (2014)... I speak a lot of odds and draw stats and I find it best use current data. In 2015 there were 790 applicants for the FL 1000 Lakes, an applicant with 2 points should be looking at 10 to 18 years of drawing whatever the heck he wants as his second choice. That is up from 7 to 13 years to reach the top point pool for a guy with 2 points in 2014.

You claim that 1% could be doing this... they say that 1% of the US population holds 35% of it's wealth. I think the Utah general deer drawing mirrors that pretty well! Sure there are some to go around for the rif-raff... enough to keep them quiet and happy while the select few skim the cream off the top! If out of 114,555 applicants you're saying that 1,145 guys are doing it... perhaps and they are monopolizing the most desired of the general deer permits! Don't kid yourself about that!

Let the majority fling apps at whichever unit they'd like and continue to get the same results... drawing eventually. Their ignorance has no bearing on my future opportunity. It is unfortunate however they will find that my opportunity may come at their expense because of the way the current system is set up and I took the time and effort to figure it the heck out!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Besides, the 1000 Lakes is a great tag. My kiddo drew it a couple years ago and we saw some whopper bucks down there. A really simple solution to this 'dilemma' would be to make the 1000 Lakes LE again. No other unit would facilitate the current magnitude of the loophole.-------SS


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Springville Shooter said:


> A really simple solution to this 'dilemma' would be to make the 1000 Lakes LE again. No other unit would facilitate the current magnitude of the loophole.-------SS


Yep, that or combine the unit into Fish lake or Plateau Boulder. But then, that would be too simple and the Wildlife Board and DWR are not into simple. Thus it would seem, long live the loophole!


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Springville Shooter said:


> Besides, the 1000 Lakes is a great tag. My kiddo drew it a couple years ago and we saw some whopper bucks down there. A really simple solution to this 'dilemma' would be to make the 1000 Lakes LE again. No other unit would facilitate the current magnitude of the loophole.-------SS


YES!! SS, I love this comment. If everyone thinks like this; EVERYONE that doesnt care about this hunt or its too far away for a general tag can reap the rewards until we are all 6 feet under. . PS I hunted alot lesser unit last year with a contraption of a weapon people call a muzzleloader because it was that or stay home but I saw some whopper bucks. I'll get one next year with my 300 Win Mag!!! Yes sir!!!


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> If you look at last year.
> 
> The Unit to put in for your first choice is Fish Lake Thousand Lakes the unit only gave out 32 rifle tags and took 4/5 points to draw. Only 667 residents applied for it as a first choice. That means that 635 people were truly potentially rigging the system.
> 
> ...


+100000000000000000


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

derekp1999 said:


> The website you're looking at is showing you old data (2014)... I speak a lot of odds and draw stats and I find it best use current data. In 2015 there were 790 applicants for the FL 1000 Lakes, an applicant with 2 points should be looking at 10 to 18 years of drawing whatever the heck he wants as his second choice. That is up from 7 to 13 years to reach the top point pool for a guy with 2 points in 2014.
> 
> You claim that 1% could be doing this... they say that 1% of the US population holds 35% of it's wealth. I think the Utah general deer drawing mirrors that pretty well! Sure there are some to go around for the rif-raff... enough to keep them quiet and happy while the select few skim the cream off the top! If out of 114,555 applicants you're saying that 1,145 guys are doing it... perhaps and they are monopolizing the most desired of the general deer permits! Don't kid yourself about that!
> 
> Let the majority fling apps at whichever unit they'd like and continue to get the same results... drawing eventually. Their ignorance has no bearing on my future opportunity. It is unfortunate however they will find that my opportunity may come at their expense because of the way the current system is set up and I took the time and effort to figure it the heck out!


No, I am saying those that are not drawing FL 1000 lakes are doing it. Which is 790 applicants - 31 permits = 759 applicants doing the loophole.

If I take the number of applicants that you stated (instead of the number of permits, I stated) it would be 759/114555 ~ 0.7% which is less than 1%.

There really isn't another unit to use the loop-hole one. Every other unit in Utah you have a good shot or 100% shot at drawing with 2 points and a sure thing at 3 points.

These three things have more of an effect on you drawing a permit than does the loophole.

The dedicated hunter program. A lot of the units are 100% outright draws. 6046 permits given out in 2015.

There there lifetime hunters getting a tag by bypassing the regular draw automatically every year. Can't quantify this number.

Youth only permits have taken permits out of the regular draw. 20% to be exact. 17,310 permits in 2015

With only 759 people potentially using the loophole, I really think it is not the issue here. It is just a scapegoat effecting those who are disappointed that they didn't draw.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> No, I am saying those that are not drawing FL 1000 lakes are doing it. Which is 790 applicants - 31 permits = 759 applicants doing the loophole.


We have no way of knowing how many people are "using the loophole" because the way the group out of Fallon, NV provides the drawing results is garbage. From the results that we get we don't have any way of telling which tags were drawn first choice or which were drawn 2nd thru 5th. It would really be enlightening to see the results broken down and which tags were drawn first, second, third, fourth, or fifth choices. Surrounding states provide this information... why can't Utah?

So answer me this... in the results that we actually have do the guys that "game the system" and put FL 1000 Lakes to get a point, are those guys showing up in two places on the results report to account for the tag that they drew as one of their "lesser" choices? That wouldn't make any sense? With the current political environment surrounding the DWR and "transparency" do you think the DWR would want to post results that show inflated application numbers and potentially have to explain where those dollars from all those "other" applications ended up?
So how exactly are the guys that are "gaming the system" showing up on the results reports? Are the results strictly first choice applications? If so then there should be a lot more tags mysteriously unaccounted for in the results report due to 2nd through 5th choices!

So how are the results actually reported? Like I said, the current way of reporting the results tells us absolutely nothing in regards to how big of a problem this is (or isn't).



MuscleWhitefish said:


> There there lifetime hunters getting a tag by bypassing the regular draw automatically every year. Can't quantify this number.


It's absolutely quantifiable... we know exactly how many lifetime license holders requested each unit. This report has been available for the last two years. Is there variation from year to year, sure just like the general public drawing anyway. DH and youth also receive a predictable percentage of the tags allocation from each unit. Seems pretty easily quantifiable compared to a group exploiting the system that we don't actually know how big (or small) it actually is.



MuscleWhitefish said:


> There really isn't another unit to use the loop-hole one.


I disagree, any unit that requires more points than I currently have and requires more points than the unit that I actually want would absolutely work to exploit this loophole. If I have one point and my preferred unit also takes one point... any unit that requires at least two points would serve my purpose. It most certainly does not have to be Fishlake Thousand Lakes, it just so happens that most who speak of the loophole identify this unit as the one to use.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Not as easily quantifiable, but Derek is right. There are many that use 'lesser' point units to utilize the loophole until they draw the tag they want in that unit. Not everyone that uses it views indefinite use of the loophole as a good thing. 

This loophole doesn't apply to me, but I wish they'd close it.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

The first year of micro-buck-management there were something like 1,300+ people who drew their second choice using their points. The second year it jumped to around 2,200. Last I heard there are around 5,000 who used their points to draw their 2nd choice ahead of others who put it as their first choice. 

It is a significant number. It is nothing like a tax-loophole, but the UDWR and Wildlife Board have shown little interest in changing it. So use it (some call abuse it) and go hunt. 

As for using the draw odds to see abuse is somewhat a pointless effort as they don't show 2nd choice draws, youth allocations, etc... And there are more units than just the 1000 Lakes which can be used to draw ahead of others.

I don't see them changing it any time soon. The current system discriminates against kids born in 7 months of the year and they don't want to address that issue either......


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Sucks for people who grew up hunting 1000 lakes and hope to hunt their old stomping grounds again.


-DallanC


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

derekp1999 said:


> We have no way of knowing how many people are "using the loophole" because the way the group out of Fallon, NV provides the drawing results is garbage. From the results that we get we don't have any way of telling which tags were drawn first choice or which were drawn 2nd thru 5th. It would really be enlightening to see the results broken down and which tags were drawn first, second, third, fourth, or fifth choices. Surrounding states provide this information... why can't Utah?
> 
> I agree that the draw results are garbage. Nevada and Arizona are also garbage, because they do not tell the whole story. I can't see why it would be that hard to add bonus points into the drawing stats.
> 
> ...


Relies in Blue


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Packout said:


> The first year of micro-buck-management there were something like 1,300+ people who drew their second choice using their points. The second year it jumped to around 2,200. Last I heard there are around 5,000 who used their points to draw their 2nd choice ahead of others who put it as their first choice.
> 
> It is a significant number. It is nothing like a tax-loophole, but the UDWR and Wildlife Board have shown little interest in changing it. So use it (some call abuse it) and go hunt.
> 
> ...


At 5,000 you are still looking at 4%, which is not a big number. Still, I'm interested in where that number came from. Is there somewhere to see how many people are actually using the system in this way?

The only other units that you could use other than FL 1000 lakes is Zion/ Pine Valley which are a good chance at 2 and a 100% at 3 points. Z/PV give out a lot more tags, so if FL 1000 Lakes was put in the LE draw it would prevent people from doing it so obviously.

Still unless the tags drop, it would only be a 4 to 5 year roll over process unless you went with moving FL 1000 lakes into the LE Draw.

LE/Premium Rifle Permit Numbers

Henry Mountains 23
Paunsaugunt 67
Book Cliffs North 154
Book Cliffs South 54
Filmore Oak Creek 16
La Sal Dolares Triangle 10
North Slope Summit 116
San Juan Elk Ridge 25
South Slope Diamond Mountain 39
West Desert Vernon 89

General Season LE

Fish Lake 100 lakes 31

It's kind of looks like the only reason that FL1000 Lakes is in the general season is because of the loophole.


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

Shhhhhh!!! We should delete this thread from the forum....:shock::shock: I am going to start doing this loophole now! Thanks for the advice!


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

In the grand scheme of things, I'm sure this hole loophole thing is somewhere between Armageddon (end of the world) and glitter & rainbows (no big deal, everything is just fine).


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Sucks for people who grew up hunting 1000 lakes and hope to hunt their old stomping grounds again.
> 
> -DallanC


Same for those guys that grew up hunting the Book Cliffs and the Henry Mountains.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Hmmmm. 4% is small. Thousands seems big. It is intereting to look at the data and see how there are many hunts where 15-25% of the permits are going to 2nd choice applicants while first choice applicants are unsuccessful. Of course some might say 20% is small-- but I'd wager those who didn't draw feel that number is very large. 

Also, each year the creep grows and more applicants are drawing using their 2nd or more choices.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> The thing I would question is whether the people are actually using the loophole or throwing apps and zion/pine valley and being to draw something else. If you look at online forums at the amount of questions that are "I have X amount of points, what can I draw?" or "what unit could I draw?" in all points systems. It is pretty clear that a good portion of the population does not have a clue how draw systems work, at least to the level to rig it in their favor. At most I think people will look at units they are familiar with and apply there versus using FL 1000 lakes or Zion/Pine Valley (Good chance at 2 and 100% at 3) as their point building unit. I doubt a majority of the 115,000 people applying for Utah Resident GS deer have a clue how the point system works. Most just put in for places they are familiar with and leave it at that. The group that is educated about the draw enough to rig it in their favor is limited IMO.


I agree completely that the vast majority of applicants in Utah simply do what they've done in years past. My group is exactly this... my brother, father, uncle, grandfather and I all apply with the intent to draw the same tag and hunt together every year. I am the only one that uses (or abuses depending upon your opinion) the loophole. They just apply for their first choice and move on. I've tried to describe the loophole to them and they don't care. As long as they draw the tag every year they are happy. We have not had problems in years past because the unit has had leftover tags and we've never felt in jeopardy of not drawing the tag. In fact there were a couple years where I bought a point in the drawing and purchased the tag I wanted from the leftover tags when they went on sale in the summer! Worked out great for me until the numbers got close enough to make me too nervous to continue to do that. Last year there were 5 tags leftover, 188 in 2014... so I'm betting heavily this year that there will be more than a handful of guys who have historically always drawn this tag that will be left out.

People start to get wise to the system as soon as they get left out, and when they get wind that there's a way to work within the system to not get left out again for many, many years they begin to see the value of the game. If it's a tag that is usually drawn every year and the applicant doesn't draw one year... that will get their attention. If it's a unit that typically draws every two years and that's what the average Joe applicant is expecting, well when it takes three or four... that will get their attention.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

This discussion is a great example of why 10% of hunters kill 90% of the game...or maybe it should be 10% of the hunters draw 90% of the tags? Oh well something like that. 

It also reminds me of the hunters that don't draw a deer tag and then complain that they are going to "hang it up" because there's no opportunity to hunt.

Or maybe, a better example would be the person that complains that they never see any deer when their neighbor across the street shoots big deer every year and how that's not fair.

The simple fact is that those that pay attention and put effort into the hunt will typically do better than those that just fling application willy-nilly across the board. Hunting is very similar to life in general, those that work hard and pay attention typically reap the most benefit.

If you don't like the current system, there is a general election in November where there could be a candidate that fits your desires in the name of Bernie Sanders. If equal opportunity, regardless of merit, is the name of the game for you, then be a socialist.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Packout said:


> Hmmmm. 4% is small. Thousands seems big. It is intereting to look at the data and see how there are many hunts where 15-25% of the permits are going to 2nd choice applicants while first choice applicants are unsuccessful. Of course some might say 20% is small-- but I'd wager those who didn't draw feel that number is very large.
> 
> Also, each year the creep grows and more applicants are drawing using their 2nd or more choices.


So, I have a question about the definition of point creep.

Is it when you think you are in the max point pool and someone who has been putting in for another unit or points only jumps in and takes the tags?

or

Is it a general rise in total points to draw a tag?

I have heard it used both ways, which is slightly confusing.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

MWScott72 said:


> This discussion is a great example of why 10% of hunters kill 90% of the game...or maybe it should be 10% of the hunters draw 90% of the tags? Oh well something like that.
> 
> It also reminds me of the hunters that don't draw a deer tag and then complain that they are going to "hang it up" because there's no opportunity to hunt.
> 
> ...


The election will get interesting.

Cruz is emphatically for selling federal lands into the state.

Trump is a crazy person, but is for hunting and public lands.

Hillary is a crazy person and is for pandering to the 1% of the day.

Sanders is a self proclaimed socialist.

Rubio is also for the sell of public lands, but probably doesn't have a shot at winning.

There really isn't a winning situation in November.

There is not a winning situation in Utah, whomever the republican candidate is will win the state usually called 30 seconds after the polls close.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> So, I have a question about the definition of point creep.
> 
> Is it when you think you are in the max point pool and someone who has been putting in for another unit or points only jumps in and takes the tags?
> 
> ...


I've always been under the impression that it is the general rise in total points to draw a tag.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> So, I have a question about the definition of point creep.
> 
> Is it when you think you are in the max point pool and someone who has been putting in for another unit or points only jumps in and takes the tags?
> 
> ...


The way I've always thought of point creep is the general rise in total points to draw a tag. It's pure economics and supply v. demand. The demand for tags (especially the LE and OIAL varieties) dramatically outpaces the supply and therefore as the applicants stack up on top of each other it gradually takes more and more points to be in that top bonus point tier.
Somebody switching units is a little different issue in my mind. In a bunch of units where there are quite a few tags given those applicants that "jump units" doesn't really have too much of an effect, but if the unit only has a small handful of tags it can really mess up the best laid plans. For example, there are about 130 LE early any weapon elk tags issued for the Central Mountains, Manti unit. That unit has drawn at about 14 points for the last couple years. An applicant with 19 points jumping over to draw the Manti tag would be taking 1 of about 65 bonus tags so the affect is not very dramatic. But, if you look at the Panguitch Lake early any weapon hunt there are usually about 10 tags issued and it has drawn at about 16 points. If a guy with 19 points jumps over to this unit and takes 1 of 5 bonus tags... that has a little bit greater impact. In these cases the guys jumping units can definitely affect the point creep, especially when few tags are offered.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

A few random closing thoughts.

1.


Packout said:


> It is intereting to look at the data and see how there are many hunts where 15-25% of the permits are going to 2nd choice applicants while first choice applicants are unsuccessful. Of course some might say 20% is small-- but I'd wager those who didn't draw feel that number is very large.


Is this information available? This would indeed be quite informative and interesting to track as long as the loophole goes on.

2. RE"what is point creep?"

Point creep is any increase of the points pool for the hunt you want in a way you don't like. I really doubt there is an "official" definition.

3. There has been some discussion about the role of the 1000 lakes unit in the loophole. It is certainly true that other units can be used to loophole an app. However, the other units are drawn by 4-5 points max, limiting the number of times a person can "game" the system. However, 1000 lakes, due to the low number of tags, is about as hard to draw as some OIL hunts and for someone with just a couple of points, could be used almost indefinitely for a loophole pick, with nearly zero risk of losing their points. That is why even just changing that unit alone would help.

4. Finally, there has been some suggestion that people who oppose the loophole are hunters that don't draw and are just whining about the "loophole" and blaming it for their failure to draw. First, I would submit that an overwhelming majority of hunters don't even have a clue about it. Next, those that know about it probably feel compelled to use it. It has also been stated that loophole users are simply more studious about their picking and deserve the rewards of their labors. Fair enough, but should it be required for drawing success to waste lots of time on outdoor message boards or to have a buddy in the know?

I would like it changed because perpetuation of the loophole makes the DWR and the WB look at minimum, careless in how they administer the rules and at worst shady.


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## chuvak (Dec 26, 2014)

I don't quite understand how it works though. I put in for a fairly easy unit to draw (I thought) in 2015 and didn't draw. It was my first choice. Now I have one point. I won't draw it on my second choice this year though will I? Even with my one point (where one point is garunteed a tag in this unit) it's still my second choice and wouldn't someone draw (or not, like I didn't last year) with it as their first choice?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Yes you can draw as a second choice before everyone draws as a first choice.See the loophole discussion.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Catherder said:


> Point creep is any increase of the points pool for the hunt you want in a way you don't like. I really doubt there is an "official" definition.


No its pretty easy, its the INCREASE in required points for a tag over time.

The entire system is a pyramid, X number of people in the top tier, X+Y in the 2nd tier, X+Y+Z in the 3rd tier etc etc. As you clear out a tier due to people drawing / dying, giving up... whatever, the next tier has more people than the last so odds keep getting worse, not better.

Its all a function of "too **** many people > permits available" :mrgreen:

-DallanC


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

I've always wondered, if you put a preference point as your first choice, do you still draw your second choice and still gain a point?


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