# Pistol info needed



## moorefish (May 21, 2008)

Help,
I am interested in getting a pistol for home protection... would like to have info on what brands would be good to look into and caliber. 
Any insights would be appreciated.
Moorefish


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

There is a ton of questions here. Experience , semi-auto, revolver..........etc. Can you give more details please ????


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

get a springfield xd in any caliber they shoot great and are cheaper than most 1911's


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## str8shtr (Jul 4, 2008)

I would look into a good .357 magnum revolver. Revolvers are much easier to shoot and you can practice with .38 special rounds wich are cheaper and easier to shoot.


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## str8shtr (Jul 4, 2008)

I also agree with Al Hansen depends on how much experience you have


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

deadicatedweim said:


> get a springfield xd in any caliber they shoot great and are cheaper than most 1911's


+1, I sold the wife on it really easy based on the extra safety features


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## NHS (Sep 7, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> deadicatedweim said:
> 
> 
> > get a springfield xd in any caliber they shoot great and are cheaper than most 1911's
> ...


Did you get that XD then?


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## moorefish (May 21, 2008)

I have been a rifle hunter all my life. I have had a 22 buckmark that I have used for fun for the past 7-8 years. I like the semi auto... but open to your thoughts
Moorefish


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## str8shtr (Jul 4, 2008)

Also if it is to be used soley for home defense I would seriously consider a short barreled pump action shotgun but realize this is only one opinion


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

There is nuthin like a short barrelled pump for home defense. But if you're after a pistol , if it was me I'd seriously consider the Springfield XD. I am a fan of Springfields. The XD's are imported from Croatia and from all I have seen work very well. Caliber is a personal preferance. I happen to like the .45 ACP. But guns are like cars here. You will hear a bunch of opinions. Good luck on your search. You may want to get with a few pistolero's on here and try a few different brands.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

NHS said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> > deadicatedweim said:
> ...


The selling is done, now I just need to do the buying part; I need a test drive first.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Huge, if you are ever in the Cedar City area pm me and we could go out and you could try mine, it is in 9mm, but I have a Walther p99 in .40 which is my main carry gun, my .45 is a Paraordinance P10, and a few others in other calibers.

morefish, I don't know where you are from, but I would check the gun stores to see if any had ranges that had rental guns to try out to help you decide which you like. My problem is I like them all. :wink:


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

bowgy said:


> Huge, if you are ever in the Cedar City area pm me and we could go out and you could try mine, it is in 9mm, but I have a Walther p99 in .40 which is my main carry gun, my .45 is a Paraordinance P10, and a few others in other calibers.
> 
> morefish, I don't know where you are from, but I would check the gun stores to see if any had ranges that had rental guns to try out to help you decide which you like. My problem is I like them all. :wink:


Thx for the offer, that is very nice of you, but does that include the free lunch too? Just kidding! I have a couple of guys a little closer that I think I will use, thanks again!


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Yeah the free lunch goes too, as long as Arby's still has the 5 for $5.95 :mrgreen:


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

here is my take, even though it an't worth beans. I have a berretta .357 revolver, and a .45 kimber 1911. I love them both, both are fun to shoot. BUT it takes me an hour to clean a semi-auto and only 15 min for the revolver. that's how the cookie crumbles with any semi auto. disassembly of moving parts takes longer, and moving parts have to be clean, or your gun will ware out faster. just don't buy a 9mm, there is a reason law enforcement went to a .40 smith n wesson. 9mm is a worthless cartridge. I would agree with a shotgun. who wouldn't shake in fear if you heard the pump of a shutgun behind a door. if i had to do it again, i would buy a .44 mag. they are then minmium for bear defence if you like to go into the mountains.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

As is the case with most gun purchases, you really need to go look at some before you buy. Everyone's hands are different. I have heard nothing but good about the XDs but they feel terrible in my hand so I will never own one. I am partial to Sigs, even though they are expensive. They are great quality and they fit me very well. But you can get a quality gun from springfield, S&W, HK, etc. 

And don't be afraid to look at revolvers. I have a S&W model 60 (.357 mag) that I love as an all-purpose carry gun. Depending on which ammo I use, it is good for packing in the hills, around town, or for plinking at the range. 

For self defense against burglars, any caliber from 9mm on up would be fine. Sometimes the 9 gets a bad rap because it isn't as powerful as others, but it has proven to be one of the most effective calibers ever made for stopping people. It is best suited for bullets in the 115-125 grain range, outside of that it isn't as great.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Just two words moorefish...

*Colt* and *.45*

Semi-auto or six shooter, you can't go wrong....


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Just curious: What is the driver behind wanting a handgun?

I ask for several reasons.

1) In a high stress situation, often at night, in which you may need to defend yourself a pistol is a blessing and a curse. If you go this route, it will require you to practice frequently and become very comfortable with the gun. Time and time again, even experienced law enforcement officers miss assailants completely from distances of just a few yards under duress.
2) Home defense weapons may end up being used by a spouse. The same issues I've described above can be compounded for female shooters if strong slide springs or heavy recoil is an issue.

I've always felt that the best home defense weapon is a 20 ga. pump shotgun. Loads of shot don't have a tendency to fly through 6 or 7 interior walls. The sound and sight of a shotgun are among the most intimidating things an intruder can be confronted with. Hitting a target at close range can be done with just a basic point and shoot method instead of a steady, aimed, discharge.

Handguns are great, especially for concealed carry. They are also good for home defense provided the owner is committed to practicing often enough to use them effectively.

If you are settled on a handgun, it's all about what works for you. My favorite is a 1911 in .45 ACP because they are extremely accurate for me and conceal well.


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## Lycan (Sep 22, 2008)

I keep a handgun bedside, but it's main purpose is to get me to my shotgun. It's kind of ironic that I trust my $300 Remington 870 over my handguns that are 2-3x more. I don't want to ever use my guns on another human being, but if I had to shoot someone I would prefer to do it with a shotgun for two reasons: 

1. Penetration through walls is more limited with a shotgun

2. Hardly anyone is going to get up from a 12 gauge shotgun blast, no matter where you hit them.

I've read an interesting article on home defense shotguns the other day. They were saying that one hit with a typical 12 gauge 00 buck load is the the equivalent to getting hit with a 10 round burst out of a 9mm submachinegun, or getting hit with three .44 Magnum slugs simultaneously. Even a 20 gauge buckshot load is the same as getting hit with two .44 Magnum slugs at the same time.

For handguns, it doesn't get much better than the XD. 1911s, Sigs, and HKs are nice, but for the money you really can't beat the tank that is the Springfield XD.


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

El Matador said:


> For self defense against burglars, any caliber from 9mm on up would be fine. Sometimes the 9 gets a bad rap because it isn't as powerful as others, but it has proven to be one of the most effective calibers ever made for stopping people. It is best suited for bullets in the 115-125 grain range, outside of that it isn't as great.


that is not the case with the 9mm. like I stated before, law enforcement has dumped the 9 because it wont stop a jack rabbit. they have moved to the .40 s&w. the .45 has proven to be a people killer. a 9mm will not and I mean will not go through a 2 x 4 length wize, which is how your walls are framed. The 9mm only became popular because of the amount of shells it will hold in the magazine and the ease of shooting for smaller poeple; and for that last reason is why law enforcement went away from the .45, it intimiate's shooters; even though it is sub sonic. the .40 smith is the best all around cartridge for personal defense and shootablity. if you want a semi in a nasty round try looking at a 10mm...mmmmmmmmmmmm look up the balistics on that cartridge. not cheap though and not very avalible. or just go with a desert eagle.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

> ...it takes me an hour to clean a semi-auto and only 15 min for the revolver.


Actually that depends on the semiauto. While a 1911 like the Kimber is somewhat complicated and harder to take apart and put together, other semis like a Glock or XD is extremely simple in takedown and parts, and you can clean it much faster than a revolver.

I would go for a .40 over the 9mm because the .40 S&W is really the best of both 9mm and .45 Auto worlds. It's got 87% the mag capacity of the 9mm and 95% the stopping power of the .45. It's also the cops' caliber of choice so ammo is/will remain common. It has better fight-stopping one-shot-stop stats than the 9mm - one reason that cops everywhere made a massive switch over the past decade to it. It's heavier 180-gr bullet would be an edge if forced to use it on carnivores in the wild.

I would also look for a gun that allows you to mount a weapons light on a tac rail under the barrel for optimum target evaluation at night.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

BROWN BAGGER said:


> like I stated before, law enforcement has dumped the 9 because it wont stop a jack rabbit. they have moved to the .40 s&w.


Where are you getting this information? "Law Enforcement" is not a single entity, and "they" haven't stopped using the 9mm. Most agencies issue a certain type or caliber of handgun, and it's true that the .40 is very popular. But saying that law enforcement has "dumped the 9" is not true. Not even close.


> the .45 has proven to be a people killer.


This is true. But every study I've seen (based on actual shootings, not speculation) clearly shows that the 9mm is just as effective. Yes, the data between .45 and 9mm is nearly identical.


> a 9mm will not and I mean will not go through a 2 x 4 length wize, which is how your walls are framed.


Basing your choice of cartridge on maximum penetration is about the most foolish thing you can do. Defense ammo is designed to penetrate exactly one person, or about 10-12" of soft tissue. Why would you want your bullet to sail right through somebody? If penetration was the only attribute that made a good defense cartridge, you'd see people shooting .44 mags and solids. What you want is the right amount of penetration, and choosing the right ammo for a 9mm, .40, .45, .357, etc., should all give you roughly the same amount.


> The 9mm only became popular because of the amount of shells it will hold in the magazine and the ease of shooting for smaller poeple;


It became popular because it is effective. It is still popular for the same reason.


> and for that last reason is why law enforcement went away from the .45, it intimiate's shooters; even though it is sub sonic.


Law enforcement still uses the .45 as well.


> the .40 smith is the best all around cartridge for personal defense and shootablity.


I agree with you here, but I'd still call it "one of the best". The .357 magnum is better ballistically, the 9mm gives you better capacity. The .45 leaves bigger holes, and is likely to be more effective against large or heavily clothed assailants.

Singing praises to the .40 S&W is fine, it's a great cartridge. And it probably does have a slight edge over the 9 and .45 in most areas. But to call the 9mm "worthless" is just a huge exaggeration of your own opinion. It is extremely close in its ability to stop people to both the .40 and the .45. I hope this post doesn't seem too harsh. But out of respect to anyone reading this thread, we all need to be clear about what is fact and what is opinion.


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

BROWN BAGGER said:


> ...law enforcement has dumped the 9 because it wont stop a jack rabbit.


That's not a true statement. Actually what you might be referring to is a famous shootout which led to the development of the 10mm and subsequently the 40 S&W. If memory serves it was the 1986 incident in Miami that involved a couple of heavily armed robbers against FBI agents largely using standard issue 9mm handguns. Two FBI agents died, but the key element was that each suspect was hit multiple times with 9mm ammunition and was able to continue the fight for quite some time.

After the event, the FBI commissioned the development of a more powerful cartridge and provided a number of specifications such as penetration of vehicle doors, specific amounts of ballistic gelatin, and so forth. The result was the 10mm, which eventually had problems because it was too powerful for standard frame handguns and caused mechanical failures. The .40 then arrived on the scene and met all of the original requirements, but in a less abusive package.

All that being said, technology has greatly improved the 9mm cartridge, especially in the area of bullet performance. Use of modern anti-personnel rounds like Gold Dots, Hydroshocks, etc has shown in all the data to be highly effective and overcome many of the original shortcomings of late 80's ammunition. Like El Matador says, the data I've seen from FBI crime reporting has indicated the 9mm performs at a very high level these days.


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

you guys are already behind in the times. I know telling you I was watching the miltary cannel isn't going to make any difference to you, except laugh. so I will print some article's for you. I don't why i'm doing your research though.

It's Christmas in October for the Atlanta Police Department. According to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the department is spending more than $545,000 in funds seized from drug suspects to replace its long-time workhorse pistol, the 9mm Smith & Wesson, with the more deadly 40-caliber Smith & Wesson. The Atlanta police, along with the Gwinnett and DeKalb County sheriff's departments are among the last police forces in Georgia to switch to the 40-caliber weapon, the newspaper reported.

The department is switching to the new weapon because it kills better. The "heavier bullet" in the 40-caliber "tends to penetrate deeper into the body to impact the organs deep in the body. This whole thing is about terminal ballistics," state firearms trainer Ernie Tobin told the Journal-Constitution. But, he added, there was "nothing wrong" with the old 9mm, calling it "an adequate pistol." (if you like shooting them 8 times)

Atlanta police don't see that much combat. According to the department, the force's 1,530 officers discharged their weapons a total of 34 times lat year, including seven incidents where people were shot. During that same period, 17 officers were either "shot or shot at," police said. The cops were happy with their new toys, said Lt. Judy Smith, an assistant zone commander. "We hope [the equipment upgrade] will really help morale," Smith said, quickly noting that new equipment almost always provides a boost in job attitude.

But for some Atlanta police, it was a case of "give 'em a new gun and they want an armored personnel carrier." Bud Watson, head of the Police Benevolent Association, told the newspaper the new guns were "a step in the right direction." But the department shouldn't stop there, Watson said. The police union would also like "some other equipment upgrades. I think certain units need more sophisticated, more appropriate weapons to perform their jobs. SWAT, fugitive and narcotics units would be safer."


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

El Matador said:


> But saying that law enforcement has "dumped the 9" is not true. Not even close.


If memory serves correctly, I understant that El Matador you are in the industry, so you obviously speak from much more experience, so which agencies still use the 9mm? It is of my limited experience that every one I have discussed it with has gone to 40s/w since about the time you mention about late 90's. Saw a documentary about that shootout on a backstreet in Florida when they premptively found the bank robbers, pretty messy incident, worse than the famous Bank of America in CA ordeal.
I own a 9 and look to get a .40; my law enforcement friend told me right after I bought it that it was a mistake FWIW. Balistically: (just going with the middle of the pack as far as variety of cartridges)
.40 165 gr, 1,200 f/s and 528ft/lbs
9mm 123 gr, 1,100 and 364 ft/lbs
or going with the heaviest bullet I see listed of 147 gr it is 980f/s and 3026 ft/lbs, which is still about 30% less power, not to mention about 10% smaller diameter or entry hole.

I am sincerely trying to learn more, just a few tidbits I found; how they perform in true action is what I am interested in, hard to similate that.


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

One data point is irrelevant. LAPD SWAT, one of the most respected local law enforcement groups in the world, recently selected the Kimber 1911 in .45 ACP as the standard sidearm but that doesn't mean other rounds are being widely abandoned by LE organizations.

The Sig Sauer P226 in 9mm is one of the most widely used sidearms in special forces detachments currently.

The US military still issues a Beretta "M9" in 9mm as the standard sidearm.

Several local law enforcement agencies issue the Glock 17 9mm as the standard here in Utah. I have a brother-in-law and a good friend who were recently issued the Glock 17 9mm by the Centerville and Sandy police departments respectively.

Modern 9mm ammo is highly effective in actual shootings, according to what I've read from the FBI's one shot stop stats and studies like "Handgun Stopping Power" by Evan Marshall. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a 9mm salesman. I've owned and extensively carried three .40 caliber handguns (Springfield XD, Sig P229, Glock 23C). My overall favorite is a 1911 .45 ACP with a 4.25" barrel. It's just incorrect to say the 9mm is ineffective and is being widely abandoned. With modern ammo, the 9mm is very close in performance to other automatic calibers and is widely used in LE and military applications. Ammo is also cheaper which allows for more practice on a budget.

My advice is simply to get what you personally can handle and shoot with consistency and accuracy. If you are new to handguns, a 9mm is more pleasant to shoot and helps you focus on the fundamentals with less recoil and blast. If you aren't bothered by those things, the .40 and .45 are excellent too.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Let me clear up some stuff......

First, some of the advice in here should be taken with a grain of salt.....the info from _threshershark_...again, a common ocean fish. What could he know?
_El Matador....._huh !! A bull fighter, probably retired, living in Old Mexico drinking Tequila everyday, siesta at noon. Probably hasn't seen a firearm since the Alamo.

I would listen closely to Frisco Pete, he didn't get that name from a cereal box !! He's been around since and before Paul Bunyan and them other guys.

I agree with Frisco anyway, cause I also carry a .40...


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Festus on the other hand had all the right tools, but relied heavily on taller, more muscular types when it came time to throw down. :mrgreen:


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> I am sincerely trying to learn more, just a few tidbits I found; how they perform in true action is what I am interested in, hard to similate that.


Me too...

I wish kind of that I hadn't bought my .45 acp. But if you could see it you would understand. The little voices running around in my head when it continued to be there in the counter everytime I went into the gun store, I had to buy it. it fit perfect and is beautiful. I feel a gun should be a work of art as well as functionable. I will have to take a pic and post it. The .45 acp is one of the few who is sub sonic (does not break the sound bearrier) :roll: I still don't know where the spell check is in here. Got to love that spell check, makes even the dumb ones like me look half way smart. I don't feel that the .40 is hard to shoot. My .357 isn't bad as long as i have ear plugs in. I shoot .38 all day with no pertection. then again I work in a machine shop. Not until I shoot my .44 mag does things change.

I did 6 months of research on handgun calibers. My toolbox has a draw full of the printed off info. I was looking for bear stoppers, and found out alot about 9mm without even wanting to. I would never own one. And don't think I was looking at a 9 for bear, read my words(even though they are'nt spelled right) lol, "accendently found out alot bout 9mm" and all the different offerings. If you are not in LE, then buy a smaller cartridge.

But as far a Utah


threshershark said:


> Several local law enforcement agencies issue the Glock 17 9mm as the standard here in Utah. I have a brother-in-law and a good friend who were recently issued the Glock 17 9mm by the Centerville and Sandy police departments respectively.


 we all know how far behind the state is to the rest of the nation.

Hell we still dance to disco.... -/|\-


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

threshershark said:


> One data point is irrelevant.


once again I said I wasn't going to do your research, if you want me to print more of them on here........ "I wont". much to boring


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Here's mine:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

El Matador said:


> .45 has proven to be a people killer.


Yeah....you'd better let the thresh know that !! :evil: :evil: _O\ O*--


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

BROWN BAGGER said:


> I wish kind of that I hadn't bought my .45 acp. But if you could see it you would understand. The little voices running around in my head when it continued to be there in the counter everytime I went into the gun store, I had to buy it. it fit perfect and is beautiful. I feel a gun should be a work of art as well as functionable.


.45 ACP seems to have great versatility as far as loads, even some bear stopper shot rounds; or something like that was advertised at the Cabelas gun counter for a while, but the ammo is very pricey from what I recall.


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

.45 acp has no bear stopping power.....that's why I bought a .44 mag
really the .45 isn't that pricey same as .357...compared to the .44


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Fatbass: *Nice Big A Elephant*.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

Now that you have been a witness to the caliber wars, and thoroughly confused to boot,
let me tell you the truth.

The shotgun is really the best tool for home defense.

None of the popular pistol calibers hold a candle to its effectiveness.

Next to that is a centerfire rifle. Most any centerfire rifle has much more 
energy than the handgun calibers. Any thing as potent as the lowly 30-30
is way ahead of pistols when it comes to stopping anything.

The only reason pistols are popular is because they are small and can be easily
carried with us. It is not because of their stopping power. When it comes to 
that they are wimps!

If your defense gun is a stay at home, you may as well have something with some 
muscle.

If you already have a shotgun, just buy some 00 Buck and save the money.

Ok, I get the idea you really want a pistol. Is your wife going to shoot it too?
Is this your first pistol? Will you later be wanting to carry it concealed? Are 
you going to apply for a CC permit?

All these things need to be looked at before you buy a pistol.

If you buy a handgun you really should learn to shoot it well. We do that by shooting 
often.
I would buy something you can afford to shoot. Price ammo before you make your
decision. This one thing alone makes the 9mm a good option. In spite of what has been 
said, the 9mm is a pretty potent pistol round.

If you don't want to spend the time or the money, to become proficient, 
but want a gun by the bedside, get a revolver in 357 Mag. These are simple and 
dependable in operation and deliver more power than any of the popular pistol calibers. 
A six shooter loaded with 38 Spl loads makes a fine plinking gun and your wife would 
like it too. You could learn to shoot it without breaking the bank. Load it with magnums 
for the bedside.

Let me define pistol: Semi auto handgun.
Revolvers are a different critter.

We could honestly give you better advice if we knew a bit more about your expectations,
and how the gun would be used.

I recommend an XD 45. The new XDM .40 looks great too. But that is my taste.

Warning: Once you buy a handgun, there is never enough. You will always want another one. :mrgreen:

Carry on!


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## Lycan (Sep 22, 2008)

Frisco Pete said:


> > ...it takes me an hour to clean a semi-auto and only 15 min for the revolver.
> 
> 
> Actually that depends on the semiauto. While a 1911 like the Kimber is somewhat complicated and harder to take apart and put together, other semis like a Glock or XD is extremely simple in takedown and parts, and you can clean it much faster than a revolver.


Great point. I actually can't stand cleaning revolvers. Nothing really comes apart on them, so you have to kind of bend and tweak to clean some areas. Plus, there is all the chambers in the cylinder to clean out.



James said:


> > Warning: Once you buy a handgun, there is never enough. You will always want another one. :mrgreen:


True, very true. Doesn't this rule apply to _most_ guns though?


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## scott_rn (Sep 11, 2007)

James said:


> The shotgun is really the best tool for home defense.


I did a bunch of reading up on bear guns the other night and the consensus was that the same is true for brown bears. Load a 12 ga. with brenneke slugs and you're a lot more effective than any handgun.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I love Springfield pistols and come from Geneseo IL where the factory is.

But for home defense, I like a short-barreled pump shotgun with an extended magazine.


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

sorry about taking so long to post a pic a my kimber. I was busy this weekend getting harassed by local residents on the extended archery.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

Wow! That's a beauty.


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## FROGGER (Oct 1, 2007)

That looks to pretty to shoot..


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

Tell me about it. When I was in ordering my kimber .300 wsm, that pistol just sat there and called my name. I tryed so hard to resist. I even bought a beretta stampede to curve the voices running through my head. it lasted 2 months. when I went in to pick up my rifle, it still was there. I wanted to buy a springflield .45, but they were more money than this kimber. so the voice's got the better of me. why not, that pistol will accomadate the rifle in my collection. it's just a good thing I don't converse with these voices or I would be in big trouble. I'm glad my wife has tought me to egnore them. remember that commercial. they show a ref. of the NFL just getting his ear chewed off by a coach. the commitators are talking to each other wondering how the ref can just sit there and egnore him. then they show the ref setting at home on the couch, with his wife just chewing the heck out of him. that has to be one of the funnest commercial's that I have ever seen. :x


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