# Another Utah Trophy



## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

Well I have now seen it all. Today I walked into a taxidermist and I about sh$t a brick, there on the floor laid a Cougar, and if it weighed 55 lbs dripping wet, then i'm Ben Franklin. What happened to ethics? What happened to common sense? Holy moses people. I can't believe the UT F&G tagged that thing, they should have cuffed the D-Bag that killed it. 

-Anyways happy hunting.

-Hound


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Are you sure it wasn't just an overgrown tomcat? :mrgreen:


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## Texscala (Sep 8, 2007)

I have seen a few cats this year......and I have not been looking.

On two occasions this year I have gone into flush chukar and found my pup was pointing cougars. 

That and there have been a whole lot of tracks.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

What a joke!!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Hound Inc,,,,,,,,,Saw the same thing at the Dwr,,someone checking one in a while back.

No freak'in way it was a year old,,,I looked at its BABY teeth and couldn't believe it!

I honestly wish they could just outlaw killing females period.


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

WTH??? One post fifty million people are condemning the cougars (kill em all on site) for ruining our deer herds, here there are a few guys saying " but it was just a baby" :lol: . Depending on which side you are on any dead cat is a good cat right? :lol:


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

STEVEO, how many days a year do you spend in the hills? My guess would be you are a weekend warrior, but that is just a guess. Obviously you don't own a pack of hounds. So you are on the other side of the fence. I spend 4-5 days a week hunting hounds, so it's my way of life. I have busted my hump training my hounds, and it shows. When I see this it boils my blood. Lions aren't the only reason the deer are gone, that is just an easy was for people to point the finger. 
Don't start a pissing match here.
-Hound


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

:lol: Hound dog..... Your starting the pissing match. I dont care how many days you spend in the hills, if you own a pack of dogs I can guarantee you spend more time there than I do. All I was commenting on is how its kind of funny in the Big game section 95% of the people are blaming Utahs Sh#tty deer herds on the lion population, and in this post people are pissed over a 55lb lion getting killed. NO OFFENSE TO YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE MAN.... KEEP YER PANTIES ON :mrgreen: 

Kind of like blaming the crappy bird population on foxes and yote's. If your on that side of the fence (like 95% of the hunters out there) then why should it matter how old the animal was.......... Kind of like throwing the grenade in the den with a bunch of pups..... Whats it hurting right?????


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Hound Inc. said:


> STEVEO, how many days a year do you spend in the hills? My guess would be you are a weekend warrior, but that is just a guess. Obviously you don't own a pack of hounds. So you are on the other side of the fence. I spend 4-5 days a week hunting hounds, so it's my way of life. I have busted my hump training my hounds, and it shows. When I see this it boils my blood. Lions aren't the only reason the deer are gone, that is just an easy was for people to point the finger.
> Don't start a pissing match here.
> -Hound


Of course not, it is all the wolves fault not the cougars, just ask any hunter. :mrgreen: :wink: :shock:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the problem,,,95%+ of Utah sportsmen are dead wrong about lions and how many
there are right now in Utah. I've been messing around with cats for over 20 years,,,,
When harvest objective hunting was introduced in 1997 there were ALOT of lions....

But it's been all down hill since then as far as the Utah lion population go's.
I mean It's been real poor for a couple years now,,,,BUT this year It's REALLY showing!

As of today (1-25-10) on harvest units,,There has only been 42 lions checked in since
the season opened in mid November................Perfect snow conditions!!!!
NO CAT's AT ALL CHECHED IN SINCE 1-7-10..........UNBELIEVEABLE!

Canyon after canyon that not long ago had at least one cat......Now there are none...
I am honestly beginning to wonder if the cat populations might crash........
On many units ,for sure, there is no longer what could be called a "health lion population"...


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Hound Inc. said:


> Well I have now seen it all. Today I walked into a taxidermist and I about sh$t a brick, there on the floor laid a Cougar, and if it weighed 55 lbs dripping wet, then i'm Ben Franklin. What happened to ethics? What happened to common sense? Holy moses people. I can't believe the UT F&G tagged that thing, they should have cuffed the D-Bag that killed it.
> 
> -Anyways happy hunting.
> 
> -Hound


Wow. Evidently the lion didn't have spots if the UT F&G checked it in?

If the cat is alone and has no spots isn't it legal to harvest?


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

I completely agree with ya. The lion excuse is the easiest for them to blame it on because its the easiest to resolve. The real cause of the deer herd declining is people(loss of habitat), pure and simple. But problem is there is no way to fix that. 

I think I have only seen 4 lions in my lifetime while out in the hills. I havent spent much time specifically looking for them, but I know that there have been times that they have seen me , even tho I didnt see them.

If the lion population is really that low right now, Mabey thats the exact reason why there was the young one at the taxidermist. Mabey it was the only one that wanted to come into the guys calls. Mabey its his first lion, I wouldnt look down on somebody for wanting to get it mounted. Even a small lion mount would look kind of cool flushing some birds or something!!!


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

I don't care how many cats you think there are. I know what I see when I spend time in the hills and I will say this is the year I should have bought a tag. I still might. I have seen more cats this year then all other years combined. 3 of those in the last 2 weeks from the road while spotting deer. I know there are more is some areas then most think there are. And I'm sure there are fewer in some areas then other say there are. I find it funny the the guys who ***** about the numbers are the guys with the dogs. I have said it before but I have an area I have spent alot of time in over the last 15 years. These cats in this area are not dumb. They have been ran so many times they avoide the roads. They will walk several miles to by pass it. It suprising just how many tracks you can cut when you walk up the little canyons. I have seen several hound guys in the area and they all say the same thing. " there aren't many cat here. We haven't seen track for weeks." Yet if you walk up just about any draw a half mile you will find them.

Like stevo said. Maybe he called it in. Or did spot and stalk. I don't know of any hound guys that would let someone shoot a yearling cat.


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

The lion was a kitten. I don't hunt on roads, I hike ridges and canyons. If you are seeing that many lions with through your scope, it isn't a H.O. area, I will put $20 on that. In the last 5 years the lion popultaion has gone down drastically, and its getting worse. 

STEVEO- sorry, as you can see this topic really gets to me.

Happy Hunting

-Hound


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

This wasn't in the Cache/Ogden area was it Hound Inc.??

The reason I ask is that I treed a young cat Saturday. It was a juvenile cat barely separated from it's mother and had walked all over the road the night before. A couple young houndsmen that I had never met (and said that this was the first time out this year) had beaten me up the canyon and had already dumped on it. They piled 10 green, inexperienced, wildass dogs on the track and it wasn't long before they had hounds scattered all over the canyon side chasing whatever. I went ahead and finished cutting the canyon for bobcat and left the dumbasses to clean up the mess they created for themselves.

When I talked to them I asked them if they had looked at the lion track by the gate and they told me they figured it was an older track. Anyway, on the way out I looked at the track more closely and knew those boys had dumped on the wrong track loop. I put a couple dogs on it and 5 minutes later had it in a tree.

One of the kids heard my dogs treeing and came down to check it out. I was already leading my dogs off the mountain when he arrived and asked if he could show a couple of his young dogs that he had managed to gather up the lion. I said suit yourself and continued on home.

Then Monday, I find out they found someone with a tag and killed it. They said they ran it again on Sunday but I have my doubts. Either way, the cougar they took matches the description of the lion you seen in the taxidermist.

It's bad enough to kill a kitten, but run it off a tree someone else had to show them takes it to a whole new low.


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## WHutchings (Jan 6, 2009)

People don't realize that killing a female let alone a young female is very unethical and is really killing several lions. That's a bunch of bull that people can pull the trigger on something like that. Im in it for the chase and thrill not the kill.


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

> If you are seeing that many lions with through your scope, it isn't a H.O. area, I will put $20 on that.


I'll put the 20 down that it is an H.O. unit. I'm not new to this. This same unit closed early a year ago. So far its on its way there again. Have buddys the were hunting cow elk near the south end of the unit and when they found the elk they aslo found a couger making a stalk on the herd. The unit next to it seams to have a few as well. Everytime we have been able to get the wheelers up there we seam to find tracks.


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

KD- This cat was in Ut CO. but that doesn't mean it wasn't whacked on the Cache. 
Hutch- 10-4

CK-I know there are a few LE units in Ut that have cats, but soon enough they will get killed off.

It's funny how many lion all these guys see with there blind eye, and yet I get phone calls left and right from guys that have a HO tag and can't seem to get the job done. 

I think what happened here was like Kevin said, some young kid got a lion treed, and (I will quote HoundDAWG) wanted to be the "Hero of the Day" in the neighborhood, now his dogs won't see another lion until next year. A five minute trail, and quick tree up, and he's got a pack of "Top Shelf" hounds. 

-Atleast there are a few hound guys left like the ones who taught me.

-Hound


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I personally think smaller lions look better. If I were to kill one, I'd be looking for a smaller female. That's just my preference.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> I personally think smaller lions look better. If I were to kill one, I'd be looking for a smaller female. That's just my preference.


I'm sure they would be better to eat. I wonder if the hunter kept the meat on that yearling?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Dunno, I'm not sure I know anyone who hunts cats for the meat. That right there is why I don't hunt them.

Anyone interested in going to the trout farm tomorrow?


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## broncbuster (Jul 22, 2009)

Any dead cat is a good cat.
No one can tell me the cats are not hurting the deer population. Also the coyotes are to blame for declining deer herds.
KILL ALL CATS AND COYOTES.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Dunno, I'm not sure I know anyone who hunts cats for the meat. That right there is why I don't hunt them.
> 
> Anyone interested in going to the trout farm tomorrow?


I like to eat lion. Next one I get I'm going to save more meat and make summer sausage.

See: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=2861&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=mountain+lion+steaks


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

broncbuster said:


> Any dead cat is a good cat.
> No one can tell me the cats are not hurting the deer population. Also the coyotes are to blame for declining deer herds.
> KILL ALL CATS AND COYOTES.
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


*cough**bull******cough*cough* Sorry I seem to have in tickle in my throat, I have already stated it is the wolves fault, ask any ******* in Utah. :mrgreen: :wink: :lol:


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

Why all the lion hate? Aren't they native to Utah? If these experienced houndsmen are saying there are less lions every year, I think ill just take their word for it. :?


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## Size Matters (Dec 22, 2007)

I agree with bronc buster kill them all they have really taken a toll on some units up north when you see more predator tracks then deer tracks you know there is a problem.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

cklspencer said:


> > If you are seeing that many lions with through your scope, it isn't a H.O. area, I will put $20 on that.
> 
> 
> I'll put the 20 down that it is an H.O. unit. I'm not new to this. This same unit closed early a year ago. So far its on its way there again. Have buddys the were hunting cow elk near the south end of the unit and when they found the elk they aslo found a couger making a stalk on the herd. The unit next to it seams to have a few as well. Everytime we have been able to get the wheelers up there we seam to find tracks.


Closed early?????No units closed early last year....There were only 3 or 4 that even closed.
And as near as I can see ,, The Cascade is the only unit with over 50% of the quota filled..
And this was done with the early snow,,,,No more cats off that unit in three weeks!
What unit are you talking about there CKL??


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

I hear people all the time saying there are lion tracks all over, well I say BS. What you are seeing is either other peoples dogs, or coyotes. Most people don't know what a lion track looks like. 9 times out of 10, I go look at a "Huge Tom" track and it is a coyote or a big dog. Cougars kill deer and elk, no dispute there, so do the coyotes (more deer than elk). I would say a Chevrolet and lack of food do there fair share of thinning down deer and elk herds as well.
But to make it easy on everyone, just do the easy thing and blame it on a cougar. 
Hopefully all these lions kill your trophy buck and bulls first!


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

Goofy, I know of 7 cats killed on the cascade so far, they don't keep track. There have been 3 spot and stalks, and 2 more with hounds. They killed a female yesterday up there, and all her kittens/yearlings are dead. Very few HO fill up, LE/HO split units like the Book Cliffs will fill up, and after this winter the book cliffs will be whiped out. 
Let me guess what next, someone is going to tell me there is a whole grip of cats out there too.


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## bird buster (May 25, 2008)

I'm certainly no lion expert. But I call BS to all these guys saying they see all these tracks everywhere. Do me a favor and call me when you see more lion tracks than deer tracks. It's the lost winter range killing all the deer. Cougars take some deer, but road kill, and winter range have a much bigger impact on the big picture. Just my two cents.


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## Size Matters (Dec 22, 2007)

I appreciate the reply however if you actually read my post with out throwing attitude around I said predator tracks, not just cougar tracks. I have spent pretty much every weekend in the hills for a lot of years and can tell one track from another. 8)


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

Ok smarty, please tell the class 3 distinct features a lions foot has, and how it differs from a coyote, fox and dog.. You tell me this, and then we will talk. I'm not saying you are stupid, just a little pop quiz. Don't cheat. I really doubt you see a whole pile of lion tracks, unless its a mother and kittens, and there is a kill near.
My point here is simple, the way I was raised up and taught to hunt was you don't kill the females, you don't kill the small cats, you kill the Tom's, just like bear hunting, you don't kill a sow, you whack the boar's. Now don't get me wrong, a depredation deal, and an old female/sow that is on the decline yeah shoot it, but a 1 yr old female, come on. Maybe I am wrong, I am a houndsman, I am a hunter, I hate to see the deer and elk herds depleated.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I just happened to take a couple pictures the other day............
And YA,,,,A solid 95% of the time,,someone tells me there are lion tracks somewhere...
There wrong!

Lion tracks 101[attachment=2:2s8yo11s]track1.jpg[/attachment:2s8yo11s][attachment=1:2s8yo11s]lion track2.jpg[/attachment:2s8yo11s]

And this my friends in EXACTLY were I will be in 90 minutes.....[attachment=0:2s8yo11s]sled.jpg[/attachment:2s8yo11s]


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Not to start an argument, but I personally think that Buicks are harder on the deer herds than Chevrolets.........they have a little heavier frame. :wink:


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## broncbuster (Jul 22, 2009)

The only people that can tell a lion track from everything else is Jeremiah Johnson and Hound Inc.
So eveyone else has been looking at Mouse tracks.
Pesonally i like Snail Tracks .


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Hound Inc. said:


> Ok smarty, please tell the class 3 distinct features a lions foot has, and how it differs from a coyote, fox and dog.. You tell me this, and then we will talk. I'm not saying you are stupid, just a little pop quiz. Don't cheat. I really doubt you see a whole pile of lion tracks, unless its a mother and kittens, and there is a kill near.
> My point here is simple, the way I was raised up and taught to hunt was you don't kill the females, you don't kill the small cats, you kill the Tom's, just like bear hunting, you don't kill a sow, you whack the boar's. Now don't get me wrong, a depredation deal, and an old female/sow that is on the decline yeah shoot it, but a 1 yr old female, come on. Maybe I am wrong, I am a houndsman, I am a hunter, I hate to see the deer and elk herds depleated.


Then don't kill them. Getting angry every time someone doesn't live up to your ideals might lead to a very trying existence.


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

Bronc, come on, give goofy some credit, and Kevin D he knows what a puma track is, and there are a few others, but for the most part, when people are seeing dozens of lion tracks, they aren't lion tracks.
Kevin D- you know Buicks get the job done, and that big iron frame is bad news for the deer.

Still waiting on that pop quiz guys- 3 things, come on speak up.


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## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

Im going to go out on a limb here and take a guess at said pop quiz... :lol: :lol: :lol: 1. 4 toes 2.no claws evident. 3. toes are round and track is round....... But im going 1 up you and give you a 4th..... In Utah the easiest way to recognize a lion track is......

*There has been a truck full of dogs parked on it since 1 a.m. and at day light said truck owner will DTFB*............. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

Plott, isn't #4 the truth. I was waiting for the other guys to answer, now they can cheat. Oh well.

Anyways guys, I have more important things to waste my time with, but thanks for keeping me entertained while I was catching up on homework and rest. I will be back next year to harass you. 

-Hound


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## muleman (Nov 9, 2007)

I'll be the first to say that if most houndsmen got out of their trucks and off their sleds and bikes they'd see more tracks in certain drainages. That being said I ride my horse 3 days a week in areas that vehicles can't get into. The area has lots of deer and elk and used to be prime lion country. I've treed one lion there and found two tracks. My nephew rides his 4-wheeler and runs the whole mountain range 6 or 7 different canyons and 4 out of the last 5 times no tracks have been cut, not even old tracks. Thats a lot of canyons to run and not see a track. 10 years ago this unit gave out 20 tags, this year they gave out 3 tags. I have no problem making the whole state harvest objective with a small percentage being females. I love chasing the cats and don't mind killing a tom but to say kill all the cats is just ignorant. I hunt deer also but I leave the small bucks alone and don't want all the does wiped out either. The key to us as sportsmen having success and passing our resources to future generations is to have balance. I want to enjoy all of my hunting but if I have a choice I'm going to be behind my dogs running a lion.


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## broncbuster (Jul 22, 2009)

Any man that would ride a mule must not be able to afford a good horse.
That was a great conservationist point of view.
3 to 4 deer a week per loin is to many. And the coyotes kill a heck of alot of fawns in the spring and full grown deer in the winter. 
So get out there and shootem up.


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

broncbuster said:


> ......
> 3 to 4 deer a week per loin is to many.....


Those numbers seem a bit high....of course it depends on the Lion..... the figures I've seen are one about every 11 days.


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## bird buster (May 25, 2008)

So what kind of tracks are these? I found them last winter.


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

It looks like you can see the claw marks, so maybe Dog tracks?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Dog tracks..


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

If they were in Utah, they are coyote tracks. In Alaska, they are wolf tracks.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

The Naturalist said:


> broncbuster said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...


+1

1 in 7 to 10 days for adults


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## Size Matters (Dec 22, 2007)

Thanks for the great pop quiz you have really cleared things up for me now I think the tracks I have seen are mice not coyotes and the few Cougar tracks I have seen I think might have been Beaver or something else maybe sagehen I dont really know for sure maybe I could post up some pictures and you could tell me thanks for all of your great advice and knowledge I bow down before you oh mighty smighter. :mrgreen:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Size Matters said:


> Thanks for the great pop quiz you have really cleared things up for me now I think the tracks I have seen are mice not coyotes and the few Cougar tracks I have seen I think might have been Beaver or something else maybe sagehen I dont really know for sure maybe I could post up some pictures and you could tell me thanks for all of your great advice and knowledge I bow down before you oh mighty smighter. :mrgreen:


Please post some pictures, that would be wonderful.


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## bird buster (May 25, 2008)

So here's some more pictures of that track. I honestly don't think it was a dog. If you lion hunters say it's not a cat, maybe a wolf. I've never seen anything so big. I followed it and found a stash with three bobcat skulls, and a deer kill nearby. I wish I had put my trail camera up last year. Anyway, here's some more pictures up for discussion. Always neat to learn more about wildlife.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Dog tracks!!!!!

Soft snow makes them look larger,,,,,We have several hounds that throw the IDENTICAL
size ,,shape ,, STRIDE,,of tracks of Those in that picture........

100% positive dog!


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

They are domestic dog tracts.


Goofy knows his tracts by the way. :lol:


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

Last month in henefer my bro and I thought we had found a wolf track. We even took pics and were very excited about it we were sure by the size of it it had to be a wolf... We followed the track and it joined up with some human tracks that had been made at what appeared to be the same time. I was pretty let down. Just to be sure I checked out the prints my 50 pound lab/pionter cross leaves and they are almost as big as my palm and nearly as big as the tracks in henefer.... A large dog running around would find and even eat at a deer kill.. Gather and stash bones too.. Maybe its a stray.. I have never seen a wolf track in person but they must be VERY big. The bobcat thing is interesting though.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Here's a pretty good representation of a mountain lion track some dogs were on. The fresh track is on new snow on a frozen lake:









Ah.....it's the thing on the right. The thing on the left is a hat...............just kiddin'


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> Here's a pretty good representation of a mountain lion track some dogs were on. The fresh track is on new snow on a frozen lake:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of a thousand.. :lol: :wink: I seen the colection. Second damnedest thing I ever saw. :mrgreen:


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

I swore I was going back into internet hunting retirement, but I will stay for a few days. Cat tracks-triple lobe on the back of there pad, foot is usually more wide than it is long, no claws, the front feet are more pointed on the lead toe, and the way they walk, and angle there foot approaches and cuts in the snow.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Nor-tah said:


> ...........................
> One of a thousand.. :lol: :wink: I seen the collection. Second damnedest thing I ever saw. :mrgreen:


 :lol: :lol: 
yeah, yeah, yeah, that's just the ones I got hanging up!


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Anybody that has been in hounds very long has had someone come up to them and excitedly report they just saw lion tracks up the road or wherever. Occaisionally they are right, but in a surprising number of cases, the tracks they observed are something else entirely. Misidentified dog tracks are the most common, but I have even seen where beaver and snowshoe hare tracks were also confused with lion tracks by some. I know we're a lot more enlightened here on the internet, but you'll still have to forgive some of us hound doggers if we roll our eyes just a little bit when we hear guys saying they are seeing cougar tracks all over the mountain side.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Cats of plenty!!!!
http://utahbirddogs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6944


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## takem (Feb 6, 2010)

hound I dont know much about cats but I would like to take one but every time I have asked some one that knows about them to go with me u get the same response it will cost u or I dont wont to give my spot out my first deer was a 2 point and if some one with a little more knowledge wont go with me then my first cat might be a year old and Id be proud of it. shear the knowledge! :idea:


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

Takem, I don't help anyone out unless they have earned there stripes. I met a guy when I was hiking one day, we got to talking, he wanted to kill a cat. Later on in the conversation he asked if I would help him, I told him no. He begged and begged, so I told him to go out and start finding tracks, and call me, and I will be a SOB if for 3 weekends in a row he hiked his happy a$$ up the steepest hill in the land, and found a lion track, and all 3 days we caught game, and all 3 times he wouldn't shoot the female in the tree because he had what Goofy, Kevin, Hutch and I would call "Ethics". He just took pictures. Just recently he called and said he had a track, a big one, he sent me a picture, and it was a magnum, the cat was in a deep dark canyon that most people wouldn't ever think about entering, we both hiked in there and caught a monster TOM lion on a ledge, and he harvested it. He hiked 50+ miles for that cat, and he deserved what he harvested in the end. So he passed on the 2 point, and passed a few 4 points, and when mister 30" came along, well you get the picture. Now a TOM of that size doesn't come along very often, but with some hard work and dedication it can be done.

-Hound


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## takem (Feb 6, 2010)

Hound I have a 27 in 3x4 a 31 in 4x4 deer and a 354 bull elk general hunts. and a 362 bull off limited entry I am a trophy hunter. I would rather not kill then kill small but u missed my point what I'm saying is this when i started hunting I did not know how to judge elk & deer all I new was it had horns. Ive seen 2 cat's in my life I dont know what a big cat looks like or maybe I do. but no one I know runs dogs and I was not asking for some one to take me out and put one on a silver platter for me I dont even car if I take a gun but the only way I'm ever going to know the diff between a 1 year old and a big tom is to go out and look at a lot of them and there not stuped they dont dance on mane. and like elk and deer I not going to put one on a silver platter for some one. but I wold be more than happy to take some one out and help them lurn the diff between a 230 class bull and a 400 class bull on the huff.you are only one hunter you can have all the ethics in the world if every on is killing a 2 points it doesn't matter nothing will ever get to trophy status. and if they dont know any better it not there fault it's the man they asked to tech them and he told them no.if you aren't the solution you are the problem. the future of your sport is the inexperienced.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

takem said:


> if you aren't the solution you are the problem. the future of your sport is the inexperienced.


Awsome very very well said...the whole post not just this part!!!


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

takem said:


> the future of your sport is the inexperienced.


I oft times feel like the future is now. With the average age of cougars harvested on the Cache over the last few years barely above 2 years old, there's a whole generation of houndsmen locally that have never seen a truly big tom. A 140 lbs tom lion, which is the equivilent to a 2 1/2 year old mule deer buck or a raghorn bull elk, is a rarity anymore.....and very few are taken on the unit every season. The majority of the harvest is females and subadult toms. It's been well over a decade since I've caught what I would consider a trophy class cat on the Cache......similar to a 190 buck or 370 bull elk.

I personally don't take part in the harvest season, I'm strictly catch and release. If someone asks me to help out with filling a tag, even if it's a fellow houndsman, I decline. I don't buy in to the argument that cougars are the reason for struggling deer herds and therefore killing lions will not bring the deer back. I'll guarantee it hasn't worked on the Cache.

I have taken quite a few nonhoundsman with me on hunts in the past, including an annual Boy Scout incursion, but it's not something that I enjoy doing. I'm not an outfitter, I run hounds for my own enjoyment and not for the entertainment of others. If that makes me selfish and part of the problem so be it. Ask to go with me and I might oblige, but more likely I'll weasel out.


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## WHutchings (Jan 6, 2009)

Well said kevin d.


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

Takem- I got ya. The first Lion I saw was 10 years ago, and that is when I knew that one day I wanted my own hounds. And in 10 years the Lion population has plumeted, drastically, the deer and elk hunters where blaming the cats then too, and back then you could catch a lion almost everytime you went out. The lion pop. now is far less than half. 
I have helped alot of guys get started in this game, and 99% of the time they are in the canyon that I showed them, killing the small cats that I have trained my hounds with. Anymore it is hard for me to help fill a tag, and to find a trophy tom is not very common at all. I have seen 1 true trophy in the last 5 years, and a few other good lions, 10 years ago if you did some foot work and had a little luck, you could tag a nice lion. 
-Hound


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Twenty years ago, there were very few houndsmen in the state. The only ones that I knew of were the government trappers. Now every wannabe out there has the best pack of hounds in the state. You whine and complain that there are no cats out there, that the deer and elk hunters are to blame for your low cat numbers. Guess what guys, the houndsmen and their wannabes are the ones to blame for the low cat numbers. You are the ones out there chasing them. 
Oh and one other thing. There were no raccoons in Utah until a houndsman released them so he would have something to chase. He made a whole lot of upland bird hunters really happy with that move.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Loke said:


> ...............................................
> Oh and one other thing. There were no raccoons in Utah until a houndsman released them so he would have something to chase...................


Really? -oOo-


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Harvest objective cougar management strategy's is why the LOW lion numbers..PERIOD.

Thank goodness the new 12 year cougar management plan is addressing the HO plan
and the harvesting of females...There is going to be big changes to lion hunts soon.
Reduction in tags and HO numbers coming , also switching HO units to LE.......

It may take 5 to 7 years,,But at least my kids should have some cats to chase..


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Loke said:


> Twenty years ago, there were very few houndsmen in the state. The only ones that I knew of were the government trappers. Now every wannabe out there has the best pack of hounds in the state. You whine and complain that there are no cats out there, that the deer and elk hunters are to blame for your low cat numbers. Guess what guys, the houndsmen and their wannabes are the ones to blame for the low cat numbers. You are the ones out there chasing them.
> Oh and one other thing. There were no raccoons in Utah until a houndsman released them so he would have something to chase. He made a whole lot of upland bird hunters really happy with that move.[/quote]
> 
> I think you need to check your facts on that one Loke. I read an article a long time ago that claimed foxes were released on the SLC airport property to help control bird populations as a way to reduce collisions with aircraft. Your statement about ***** being released seems a little far fetched to me.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

[quote="luv2fsh&hnt] I think you need to check your facts on that one Loke. I read an article a long time ago that claimed foxes were released on the SLC airport property to help control bird populations as a way to reduce collisions with aircraft. Your statement about ***** being released seems a little far fetched to me.[/quote]

There is no way of knowing exactly how racoons were first introduced into Utah. I do know that when I started pulling ***** out of my traps back in the early 70's nobody would believe me. I too have heard the rumor that they were introduced by houndsmen post WWII, but who knows??


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I did a little research on it and could find nothing referencing a release. It seems from the articles I read the ***** being in the area is just a natural expansion of range by the *****. It is possible that some folks did release a few but from what I read they would have ended up established here anyway.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

There is a name to go along with the raccoon legend, but without first hand knowledge I won't share it. I have also heard the red fox was released to control bird populations at the airport as well. That is why they (along with the raccoon) are considered nuisance species and are not given the protection that native species have. There wasn't a lot of press given when the raccoons were illegally released. Kind of like when fish are illegally released. You only find out about it after they become a problem. And those responsible aren't really anxious to admit to it.


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## takem (Feb 6, 2010)

hound have you ever been to a rack meting ? more specific the furbearers one. it a meeting with the dwr regarding rules and reg! and u can put in your 2 cents like maybe a cougar orientation course that every one that get a tag has to complete to learn age and sex I think it would be a step in the right direction. hell they should make it for all game. then maybe we wold all start seeing more trophy class game.


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

To have more trophy class game, you have to have more game. Cougars will not help that. 
Remember when they closed the Vernon unit because predators had eaten so many of the deer they couldn’t justify a hunt. And that was a limited entry hunt, before that it was 3point or better. The hunters weren’t depleting the herd. Even the fish cops said it was cougars.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

redleg said:


> To have more trophy class game, you have to have more game. Cougars will not help that.
> Remember when they closed the Vernon unit because predators had eaten so many of the deer they couldn't justify a hunt. And that was a limited entry hunt, before that it was 3point or better. The hunters weren't depleting the herd. Even the fish cops said it was cougars.


Wherever it's been tried, killing cougars to bring back the deer herd has not worked. In a predator/prey relationship, it's the prey species that determine predator numbers and not the other way around. The tail doesn't wag the dog. Sorry to say, but there are some things even Don Peay and the wildlife board can't control.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

> In a predator/prey relationship, it's the prey species that determine predator numbers and not the other way around.


Isn't the relationship cyclical where both populations control each other. High prey populations will lead to increasing predator numbers. As predator numbers increase prey numbers decrease until there are too many predators for the amount of prey and the predators die off and the prey numbers can start rebounding. I can see where you're coming from; the population of predators depends on the availability of prey. But, isn't it also accurate to say that a higher number of predators will cause the prey numbers to decrease?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I was just wondering, what is the mortality rate for these cats that are "caught and released" during times of stress?


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Loke said:


> I was just wondering, what is the mortality rate for these cats that are "caught and released" during times of stress?


I am not aware of any study that has been done on the subject Loke. All I can say is that before the harvest objective hunts, we had some resident lions that I have treed 4, 5, and sometimes 6 different times a year season after season. They didn't seem any worse for wear to me and some actually seemed bored with the process. From my own experience, I would speculate that mortality rates would be statistically insignificant.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

willfish4food said:


> But, isn't it also accurate to say that a higher number of predators will cause the prey numbers to decrease?


Only in the short term. Over time, predator populations can be predicted to crash as well. There is a natural balance between prey and predator populations and over time an equilibrium will once again be achieved.

Now, there is a theory called the predator pit hypothesis that has been used. 10 to 15 years ago it was the rage at all the RAC meetings, but you don't hear as much about it anymore. It suggests that a predator species can switch their diet to alternative prey species and thus never let the population of it's original prey specie to rebound. There are some obvious limitations to the theory however, otherwise, we'd be living in a world of all predators and no prey. Besides, I've not seen any evidence of cougars switching to alternative prey species.

Anyway, something to think about.


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