# Antlerless Quagmire



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

If you’ve been following along you’ve heard me bemoan the cluster that has become our antlerless draws. I decided to take a closer look. According to last year’s draw odds, including CWMUs we have 154 total options to apply for a cow elk hunt. Only 41 of those hunts will take less than 3 points to draw this year. 

(This assumes all applicants will remain in their same pool, which we know doesn’t happen but is also impossible to predict which applicants will switch and what hunt they will switch to.) 

Only 26.6% of the available antlerless elk hunts can be drawn this year with 2 or less points. To be said another way, 73.4% of cow elk hunts will take 3 or more points to draw. 

Move over to pronghorn, and it is even worse. Out of 30 potential hunts to apply for, only 2 can be drawn with less than 4 points. TWO! That is 93.4% of the doe pronghorn hunts require 4 or more points to draw in Utah. 

This is fetching depressing!


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I hear ya Nila! The meat hunt isn't a sure thing anymore. Used to be able to draw my preferred unit every other year. Now it's once every 3 years...and there are fewer elk because of private lands tags on the other side of the boundary. We're getting hammered both ways!

What's even more depressing, with elk anyway, is that they offer more tags and yet the odds get worse...meaning there's way too many new mouths to feed that are moving in to the state. I don't see it getting better any time soon, if ever...


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanillabean, you're looking at this all wrong! You get to collect so many more points now without anybody actually expecting you to go hunting!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Look at the flipside of the coin....With the cost of fuel and inflation this year, it might be a "blind blessing" to collect a point and not draw a tag. For this same reason, there may be less applicants in the pool to wade through the muck with you. 🤷‍♂️


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I always knew that an increasing population would play hell with our hunting opportunities. I am just gobsmacked that it is all happening so bad so quickly.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> Look at the flipside of the coin....With the cost of fuel and inflation this year, it might be a "blind blessing" to collect a point and not draw a tag. For this same reason, there may be less applicants in the pool to wade through the muck with you. 🤷‍♂️


I can see a lot of dunces thinking they need to put an elk in the freezer to "save on the grocery bill," then filling their gas guzzler with $5 a gallon gas to hopefully kill an elk. But yeah, for anyone right on the ragged edge financially it would probably be wise to do less hunting this year.


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## Gledeasy (Mar 23, 2014)

I remember a couple of years ago the only tag I was counting on was an anterless elk having 4 points. When I didn't draw, I shook my head in disbelief that an antlerless tag was going to take as many points as the LE bull tag I was chasing.

I stand at 6 points this year (granted I bought a point last year).


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## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

I had 4 points for cow elk this year. It took 3 points to draw last year where I wanted to hunt. Unfortunately they cut way back on tags and hunts and it starts Thanksgiving weekend. Hopefully back to normal next year.


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

Yeah the antlerless draw is getting pretty bad. I can’t wait till we have to do blind draws for the duck hunt.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

3+ years waiting for a permit that may have a 30-60% chance to kill an antlerless elk. Then start the cycle over again..... 

I get approached by people who talk to me about changes that need to be made to distribute the opportunity. Two topics seem to keep coming up over and over-- 
-Only one big game permit per year as a first choice. 
-Archery permits are bull only (frees up 700 harvested antlerless which equates to 1,000-2,000+ antlerless draw tags).
Probably not the solutions many people want to see or hear about, but those ideas are out there.....

Last elk we killed cost breakdown- 2 trips at $60 per for gas = $120 (probably be $180 now) Bullet- $2 Permit $60 Cut and wrap $200. Total was $382 in the freezer. That is way less expensive than beef per lb. (I raise beef and it is less expensive than anything I can raise).And that doesn't take the experience value into account.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Packout said:


> 3+ years waiting for a permit that may have a 30-60% chance to kill an antlerless elk. Then start the cycle over again.....
> 
> I get approached by people who talk to me about changes that need to be made to distribute the opportunity. Two topics seem to keep coming up over and over--
> -Only one big game permit per year as a first choice.
> ...


Less expensive than beef IF you kill one. I have a 100 percent success rate at harvesting beef from Costco. Much better than the 30 to 60 percent success rates you cited.


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## 2pntkiller (10 mo ago)

I have 6 doe deer points and have 100% odds at panguitch doe tag... the didn't offer the hunt this year so I put in for a point to keep my odds up for when they do... I also had 4 cow points but a cow tag was given to me last year and I took it not knowing itd get rid of my points.. I killed my cow so its fine but wasn't what I was hoping for.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Less expensive than beef IF you kill one. I have a 100 percent success rate at harvesting beef from Costco. Much better than the 30 to 60 percent success rates you cited.


Yep- I thought that was fairly obvious. It does depend on how proficient you are. Moose and a few others on this site seem to win with elk/deer meat costs, while other members would starve.
And having to buy meat at Costco is the biggest tragedy noted on this thread. Now I feel really sorry... ; )


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## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

2pntkiller said:


> I have 6 doe deer points and have 100% odds at panguitch doe tag... the didn't offer the hunt this year so I put in for a point to keep my odds up for when they do... I also had 4 cow points but a cow tag was given to me last year and I took it not knowing itd get rid of my points.. I killed my cow so its fine but wasn't what I was hoping for.


It used to be we could draw the Panguich doe every other year. Worked out well for the grandson and myself. Hard to believe there's only 13 cow elk tags this year.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You have to figure that as the human hunting population increases along with herd number either going down or coming into line with carrying capacity it is going to get tougher every year to draw that tag that you used to draw every couple of years.

It isn't just Utah but all the western states.


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## cedar (Jul 29, 2013)

Combine antlerless and antler draw in same pool. Draw odds for both trophy and meat hunters will be much better


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Vanillabean, you're looking at this all wrong! You get to collect so many more points now without anybody actually expecting you to go hunting!


You shut your mouth when you talk to me!


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## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

Critter said:


> You have to figure that as the human hunting population increases along with herd number either going down or coming into line with carrying capacity it is going to get tougher every year to draw that tag that you used to draw every couple of years.
> 
> It isn't just Utah but all the western states.


Understood, I was just surprised last year they 3 hunts will a total of about 200 cow tags and this year 1 hunt with 13 tags.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> You shut your mouth when you talk to me!


I did. That's the beauty of the interwebs


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## 2pntkiller (10 mo ago)

Irish Lad said:


> Understood, I was just surprised last year they 3 hunts will a total of about 200 cow tags and this year 1 hunt with 13 tags.


Good, its insane to be in pang in December and see all the cow hunters lined up along the roads.. sw desert use to have I think 300 cow tags bow they've got 1 hunt I didn't look at the numbers this year though but I think last season it was 100


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Remember when everyone said hunting was a dying activity and we are losing hunters at a rapid pace and we need to get as many people involved as we could?

are we regretting that yet?

I am.

more hunters wasn’t the answer. The difficulty in obtaining tags obviously isn’t 100% to blame on hunter recruitment, but it certainly hasn’t helped. We didn’t need more hunters just for the sake of numbers. We needed more current hunters to be informed and engaged. I don’t know what numbers look like back east, but in the west, hunter numbers are increasing rapidly, while opportunities decline.

I’m hoping high gas prices will keep more guys home this year. Hopefully they will look at antlerless as not “worth it” because of the costs right now. But I’m not holding my breath.

im calling it now. Gonna go 4/4 on antlerless tags in 2022. 😎

realistically, I’ll draw doe deer and pronghorn. I’m right there for cow elk too. But that could go either way. And then theres cow moose… max points again, with odds probably somehwere around 1 in 10. But I’m feeling lucky!

packout,

1 tag a year is absolutely stupid. If guys are getting multiple tags, they have obviously invested the time in the wait line to get them. That’s “fair”. This entitlement thing in hunting needs to end. Want a tag? Wait your turn. Just like everyone else who has one had to do.

or buy one. Either way, you’ve “earned” it.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Just based on the every day recreational traffic I think any reduction in hunters/applicants is a misplaced hope.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Even my coworkers who were broke to the point of having literally $0.00 in their checking account at times before all this "transitory inflation" started are still spending frivolously and wouldn't come in for overtime if you held a gun to their head. I doubt high gas prices are gonna scare people too bad. All the restaurants are still packed and people seem to be carrying on with business as usual. People either have more discretionary income than I think they do or they believe "back to normal" is right around the corner. Either way, I expect plenty of competition in the antlerless draws this year.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> I did. That's the beauty of the interwebs


There is zero chance you typed that initial response with a closed mouth. Don’t lie!


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Even my coworkers who were broke to the point of having literally $0.00 in their checking account at times before all this "transitory inflation" started are still spending frivolously and wouldn't come in for overtime if you held a gun to their head. I doubt high gas prices are gonna scare people too bad. All the restaurants are still packed and people seem to be carrying on with business as usual. People either have more discretionary income than I think they do or they believe "back to normal" is right around the corner. Either way, I expect plenty of competition in the antlerless draws this year.


Well in this case, I hope you aren’t right haha 2020 was bad. People in the mountains everywhere. 2021 had less guys out and about. I’m expecting a decrease this year as well. Gas prices were really high in 2008, and the mountains were empty all fall long. Of course there were other factors in play then, but we well on the right track to those other factors being part of the equation here before too long.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

All of my friends I've talked to thus far came up blank for tags. They are all going to apply for antlerless. I'm guessing we'll see increased competition for that lottery and sell out much quicker for OTC elk tags this year. 

Should we start taking bets on the unusual side effects we'll experience this year when everyone & their mom tries to get an OTC tag at the same time? 

From the observation of Hwy 14 people aren't reducing much travel. And it's looking like the price spike won't be as horrible as folks like myself feared and should be on a noticeable taper by autumn. I'd wager pressure for campsites will be high again this summer and fall.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> There is zero chance you typed that initial response with a closed mouth. Don’t lie!


I smile with closed lips when I'm feeling particularly smug and superior, just like right now.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

backcountry said:


> And it's looking like the price spike won't be as horrible as folks like myself feared and should be on a noticeable taper by autumn.


$3 a gallon more at the pump isn't "looking horrible"????? 🙄 It's called "conditioning". We have to have the go go juice no matter what, and we get use to paying $5.60 a gal. (for diesel) and that does limit my ventures as to where I go, and how often. I don't see the fuel price dropping at the pump anytime soon. It may flatten out, but I bet the days of paying $2.25 a gallon are long gone.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I'm not sure I'm behind a "1 big game tag" per season yet, but I could probably get behind a "1 tag per species" requirement. Do I like it? Absolutely not, but given the extra pressure due to population influx and other pressures put on the resource, I don't see how we avoid it in the not too distant future. 

If we were to go to a system like that, those like Moose would still get to "plan out their hunts" and draw substantially more tags / hunt more than the average hunter. It's just sad that it would be on a smaller scale. In an ideal world, there wouldn't be a need to "ration" tags, but unfortunately, the world is far from ideal.

I also believe the sustained, higher gas prices will deter many from hunting near as much as they normally would or would like too. I know it affected my desire to make multiple trips out during the turkey season. I'd basically just given up and accepted that I was going to donate my tag to DWR coffers until I ran into a landowner with a good chance at killing a turkey in a trip or two. Public land hunting couldn't do that for me this year and I just wasn't up to filling my truck up with $200 in gas for the chance at a $35 turkey! Don't get me wrong, I'm all about the experience and get that much of the meat I bring home is more costly than what can be purchased at your local grocer, but there does come a point where it can get too expensive to procure it through hunting.

I will say though that every time I walk through the grocery store and see $12.99/lb. ribeyes, I am SO GLAD I don't need to buy those. Even if meat gained thru hunting can be more expensive, it doesn't seem to hurt as much as if I were buying it at the store...most of the time.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

taxidermist said:


> $3 a gallon more at the pump isn't "looking horrible"????? 🙄 It's called "conditioning". We have to have the go go juice no matter what, and we get use to paying $5.60 a gal. (for diesel) and that does limit my ventures as to where I go, and how often. I don't see the fuel price dropping at the pump anytime soon. It may flatten out, but I bet the days of paying $2.25 a gallon are long gone.


Not as horrible as people like I feared back in March. I thought we'd be approaching $6/gallon by now due to invasion of Ukraine.

We'll likely never see the low numbers you state but I don't think we'll stay this high all summer. Peaks normally happen between now & July then we see a noticeable taper.

I don't think these prices will affect people committed to hunting either. As we know it's a lifestyle for many & that's not given up easily.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Fuel prices won't come back down until a few politicians pull their heads out of their rectums and realize that the way to drive down prices to get the supply flowing again. All it is going to take to spike gas and diesel prices in Utah is for a refinery to go down for some reason, then they will be pushing $7.00 a gallon.

When the liberals adopted the "green new deal" and said that they were going to drive fossil fuel out of business they meant it and are doing everything possible to do it. Just look at the regulations and restraints that California is putting on diesel fuel. That along with banning gas powered lawn equipment. Then there is the law requiring all homes to be totally electric when they don't have the electric grid to even handle what they have now.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

We'll be seeing oil at ~$200/barrel before supply increases catch up and things start to go back down. Back down to what level is anybody's guess. It's commodities and there's simply a lag between demand spikes and spin up time to meet it.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

There are a lot of opportunities for antlerless hunting out of state. Gotta pick a couple states and make a long term plan when to cash in points. It's especially cheap for youth in many neighboring states, and some hunts with high success rates if you look around. 

I'm sitting on 13 antlerless deer points here in Utah--that is always my fall back plan if myself or my daughter don't draw anything anywhere. I haven't needed to cash that in yet so there it sits ready for me. If you aren't planning, you aren't hunting


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

backcountry said:


> All of my friends I've talked to thus far came up blank for tags. They are all going to apply for antlerless. I'm guessing we'll see increased competition for that lottery and sell out much quicker for OTC elk tags this year.
> 
> Should we start taking bets on the unusual side effects we'll experience this year when everyone & their mom tries to get an OTC tag at the same time?


There is no “lottery” for antlerless tags. It’s a preference point system (except for cow moose and ewe bighorn, but good luck on that! 😂). Where the guys who have waited the longest get the tags. Right now that’s 3-5+ years before you’ll have a possible chance at a decent permit. So if your buddies are like you, and waited until they were 40 then decided that hunting was “kool”, they’ll come up short on that deal too.

Remember: if you can draw a tag with 0 points, there’s probably a reason for it. Don’t go cussing the DWR for chasing unicorns when you willingly applied for the tag. 

The OTC deal won’t be anything new. The guys who actually care about getting a tag will be patient and do what is necessary to get one, while the guys who don’t put much thought or effort in to getting one will wait until the end of the day to buy one, they put in a half azz attempt to get one, find out they are SOL, then cry and complain about the “fairness” of it and be the whiny biotch calling the DWR and WB on the phone demanding a change in the system because they are lazy, feel entitled and expect instant gratification because everyone is a winner in today’s world.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

H


colorcountrygunner said:


> I always knew that an increasing population would play hell with our hunting opportunities. I am just gobsmacked that it is all happening so bad so quickly.


But we need to keep giving the youth more opportunities because it's really important to keep recruiting new hunters before nobody is putting in for all these hunts anymore.


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## Pokesmole (Oct 29, 2016)

Took me 4 points to draw a cow tag last year. I fear by the time I draw that one again it’ll be 6/7 points. Did get it done within 3 hours of hunting. So that was nice. Probably the easiest elk I’ve ever harvested. Ill have to go into work late in order to get a spike tag this year. Got my lady used to elk meat and she’ll be displeased if I don’t come through with more this season.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Getting youth involved is absolutely needed. They are the ones who will fight the battles coming up. Now do they need to be overly encouraged? That's up for debate.

It seems that the target for elk has been that the rules were written to ensure that the harvest objective is met. In the case of antlerless that has allowed the rule to hunt antlerless elk on the same unit during a different big game hunt during that season. They wanted X number of cows killed and it wasn't happening within the dates specified. If that is causing the backlog it should be a simple fix to change the rule back to one season only and add more tags.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

MooseMeat said:


> There is no “lottery” for antlerless tags. It’s a preference point system (except for cow moose and ewe bighorn, but good luck on that! 😂).


I not sure many people understand the above point. You will Not draw a tag unless your in the top tier of points. Generally you can tell when your going to draw anterless. No surprises


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## Brave arrow (Dec 24, 2017)

Antlerless application is always a bit fun I always seem to find a person or two that are going to apply for the first time and the look of excitement I get when I say their best shot is for cow moose is pretty great. Nothing like a devastating truth. But the DWR makes it clear antlerless is subject to large fluctuations so years of 3-4 + points should be expected IMO 

With any proper planning antlerless can easily get you at least a hunt every year but so many people cash in as many chips as they can and draw as much as they can. I have a brother who got a deer tag and all his antlerless tags in one year it was fun but now he is looking at a likely two year dry spell. I usually cash in points for 1 antlerless hunt per year and by the time it circles around I get to go again so every year I get at least 1 decent permit. It all depends on what a person wants but hunting every year is not hard at all just takes a little bit of planning


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> H
> 
> But we need to keep giving the youth more opportunities because it's really important to keep recruiting new hunters before nobody is putting in for all these hunts anymore.


Oh, thank goodness we recruited and retained all these ndw hunters. I was starting to get worried I would be saddled with the burden of hunting limited entry elk every year. Thank God rat tails and flat brims made hunting cool again. Hail, Cheeser!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Critter said:


> Fuel prices won't come back down until a few politicians pull their heads out of their rectums and realize that the way to drive down prices to get the supply flowing again. All it is going to take to spike gas and diesel prices in Utah is for a refinery to go down for some reason, then they will be pushing $7.00 a gallon.
> 
> When the liberals adopted the "green new deal" and said that they were going to drive fossil fuel out of business they meant it and are doing everything possible to do it. Just look at the regulations and restraints that California is putting on diesel fuel. That along with banning gas powered lawn equipment. Then there is the law requiring all homes to be totally electric when they don't have the electric grid to even handle what they have now.


You understand this has nothing to do with available federal permits, correct? The industry is sitting on a ton of them yet only at 97% pre-pandemic production. Anonymous insider polling shows it's largely about trying to recuperate losses from the sudden shock of shuttering production because of decrease in 2020 demand. They've been slowly ramping up but enjoying the windfall with buybacks and payouts. 

Politicians have been begging them to increase demand but they are private businesses who get to set their own quotas. This is capitalism at work; not a complaint, just fact. This isn't politicians fault nor can we point fingers at executives doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

At some point we'll likely see prices cause demand destruction if they get much higher. 

If anything, this is a win-win for both fossil fuels companies and the "green industry". Demand for hybrids and HPEV's is through the roof with these prices.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

middlefork said:


> Getting youth involved is absolutely needed. They are the ones who will fight the battles coming up. Now do they need to be overly encouraged? That's up for debate.


It doesn’t matter how many youth we have In place for future battles when we have rogue state representatives like snizzledick Snyder, that completely bypass the systems and processes in place to set and make changes for hunting rules and regulations, to make changes things THEY want, with zero public input or opinions about the topics under attack. It’s been made very clear over the last couple years that Average Sportsmen in utah do NOT have a voice unless they have a 3 letter wildlife group following their name. If that clown would stay in his lane and follow procedures that are in place, we would all be better off. But power is often abused by those who have it, it just so happens that this time it’s the hunters who are falling victim to it.

Recruit all the youth you desire. Their voice will mean nothing in the future.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Brave arrow said:


> Antlerless application is always a bit fun I always seem to find a person or two that are going to apply for the first time and the look of excitement I get when I say their best shot is for cow moose is pretty great. Nothing like a devastating truth. But the DWR makes it clear antlerless is subject to large fluctuations so years of 3-4 + points should be expected IMO
> 
> With any proper planning antlerless can easily get you at least a hunt every year but so many people cash in as many chips as they can and draw as much as they can. I have a brother who got a deer tag and all his antlerless tags in one year it was fun but now he is looking at a likely two year dry spell. I usually cash in points for 1 antlerless hunt per year and by the time it circles around I get to go again so every year I get at least 1 decent permit. It all depends on what a person wants but hunting every year is not hard at all just takes a little bit of planning


I hunt every year. I do NOT hunt antlerless every year. Unless you’re getting control or private lands only tags, people aren’t drawing an antlerless tagevery year themselves anymore.

Doe PH is turning into a 5-6 point requirement.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Brookie said:


> I not sure many people understand the above point. You will Not draw a tag unless your in the top tier of points. Generally you can tell when your going to draw anterless. No surprises


Most people I know understand that point, even if we don't always use the right verbage, ie "lottery" instead of "drawing". The only thing I have to refresh myself on for the years I apply is the sequence of the Big Game drawing because I never took the time to memorize it. 

If the drought keeps up the quotas will keep dropping and options other than the primary Big Game draw are going to feel the pressure. It's going to be a while before those systems find an equilibrium. Even with folks like me opting out of my annual donation to the state we are still seeing increased interest. The state will eventually need to reconsider their recruitment strategy if our herds and range keep suffering but there is almost always a lag there.


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## Brave arrow (Dec 24, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> I hunt every year. I do NOT hunt antlerless every year. Unless you’re getting control or private lands only tags, people aren’t drawing an antlerless tagevery year themselves anymore.
> 
> Doe PH is turning into a 5-6 point requirement.


You are right to the fact doe PH is the toughest to get but there is enough low point units for elk and some deer that is doable every other year then throw in the PH now and then. But like I said with enough research it can be done for now believe it or not. You won't be hunting the best units or seasons granted but it is possible. 
Antlerless is very up and down from year to year I remember just a few years ago they opened up a slew of new doe deer hunts a couple only needed 1 point most of these are gone or heavily reduced now but they do come and go thats just the nature of the antlerless draw. Things might be different this year with all the cuts and very little new opportunities and the days of getting a antlerless tag each year may be gone IDK but I do know that those people that adapt to the changes and plan accordingly still find plenty of hunting opportunities not just antlerless year after year


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

What if I told you there was another way? A way to have so many big game tags each year that you could never, ever hope to actually fill them all...

Nah, enjoy your points.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> What if I told you there was another way? A way to have so many big game tags each year that you could never, ever hope to actually fill them all...
> 
> Nah, enjoy your points.


I hope the lack of sunlight gives you the rickets!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> We'll be seeing oil at ~$200/barrel before supply increases catch up and things start to go back down. Back down to what level is anybody's guess. It's commodities and there's simply a lag between demand spikes and spin up time to meet it.


If crude reaches $180-$200 a barrel, hold on to your britches! It will be called Recession.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I hope the lack of sunlight gives you the rickets!


I took this picture the other night at 11pm. Suck it.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I actually struggled with the length of days up there during the summer. I like my average circadian rhythm of the lower 48. But it's still tempting.

But I'm pretty convinced Thanos may be correct in his burn it all down idea of full random draw, at least in the long run.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

backcountry said:


> Most people I know understand that point, even if we don't always use the right verbage, ie "lottery" instead of "drawing".


Well be sure to use the correct terminology or “verbage” next time. Apparently that’s very important to you in your discussions… or does that only apply when you’re irritated with me and that’s one of your attacking points while simultaneously diagnosing my mental health conditions and afflictions?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MooseMeat said:


> It doesn’t matter how many youth we have In place for future battles when we have *rogue state representatives like snizzledick Snyder, that completely bypass the systems and processes in place to set and make changes for hunting rules and regulations, to make changes things THEY want, with zero public input or opinions about the topics under attack.* It’s been made very clear over the last couple years that Average Sportsmen in utah do NOT have a voice unless they have a 3 letter wildlife group following their name. If that clown would stay in his lane and follow procedures that are in place, we would all be better off. But power is often abused by those who have it, it just so happens that this time it’s the hunters who are falling victim to it.
> 
> Recruit all the youth you desire. Their voice will mean nothing in the future.


The legislature controls the DNR/DWR and gives direction and authority to the wildlife board. The wildlife board has no control over the legislature.

But then you already know that. 18 year old's can vote.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

middlefork said:


> The legislature controls the DNR/DWR and gives direction and authority to the wildlife board. The wildlife board has no control over the legislature.
> 
> But then you already know that. 18 year old's can vote.


I understand that. My question is, why do we have RACs and the WB when the representatives just bypass the system in place and do what they want? Just another formality to make the public feel like they matter?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Take trail cams for instance. Some people had a problem with the way they were being used. When the wildlife board didn't respond to their concerns those same people contacted their representative and asked them to respond. Casey and other representatives then directed the DNR/DWR to study the problem and make a decision concerning their use. They let the DNR/DWR/WB know if they didn't study and come up with a plan on regulating them then the legislature would be happy to tell them exactly how they would be regulated.

If the legislature did what you said they do why not just pass whatever code they arbitrarily decide into code and be done? There were plenty of people that would have been totally fine with them removing the use of trail cams completely.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

middlefork said:


> Take trail cams for instance. Some people had a problem with the way they were being used. When the wildlife board didn't respond to their concerns those same people contacted their representative and asked them to respond. Casey and other representatives then directed the DNR/DWR to study the problem and make a decision concerning their use. They let the DNR/DWR/WB know if they didn't study and come up with a plan on regulating them then the legislature would be happy to tell them exactly how they would be regulated.
> 
> If the legislature did what you said they do why not just pass whatever code they arbitrarily decide into code and be done? There were plenty of people that would have been totally fine with them removing the use of trail cams completely.


Give it time, they are well on their way down that path


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

Any Chance of the Antlerless draw going to a Bonus Point system instead of a Preference Point System?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Slayer said:


> Any Chance of the Antlerless draw going to a Bonus Point system instead of a Preference Point System?


2/5 antlerless species are on a bonus system. There’s been talks about it in the past, but the demand was very low applicants were cycling through much faster at that time. I’m sure it’ll come up again in the future discussions


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> Give it time, they are well on their way down that path


We can only hope so...


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## ShedyGaGa (Oct 12, 2019)

Just grab your favorite beverage, sit in your favorite rocker, and reminisce on the days when it was good…It’s all you can do now.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

ShedyGaGa said:


> Just grab your favorite beverage, sit in your favorite rocker, and reminisce on the days when it was good…It’s all you can do now.


With hunting and soon to be many other aspects of modern society.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I’m tired of bonus and preference points. If they’re going to revamp the system, going random would be my choice.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

If you studied hard in school, sacrificed a bit early on and really got a good paying job. You can buy all the tags you want... every year.

A good friend of my dads, and a major home builder in Utah, has over 100 rentals right now. Do the math on that... somewhere around $150,000 to $250,000 per month just from rent payments. Plus if he ever needed some extra $$$ he could sell a dozen or two. He's starting a new subdivision near Micron on about 600 acres of land he's been sitting on for 40 years. I cant imagine how much $$$ he'll make off of that all by itself in todays housing market.

-DallanC


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I'm an optimistic realist. There may be changes in the road ahead, but the future looks bright for those who are willing to look outside the box. Pick up a side hustle or two and the doors to the world seemly open. 

LOVE LOVE LOVE what DallanC mentioned above!!!! If a person consumes everything they make, inflation hits and kicks people right in the nuts. Be smart, invest for the "now" and the "future" - lots and lots of opportunity still exists if a person knows where to look.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

As bad as the 1929 stock market crash was, it had recovered in a year. Anyone that just held on and kept their stock was A-Ok, in fact had a profit. People who had invested on margin were utterly crushed though. 

No matter how bad the near future might get, 10-15 years from now you can look back and see smart people who made alot of money during that time. There will be new millionaires and new billionaires made, who took advantage during economic down-turns to build fortunes.

Be smart, live within your means, set some goals... try to take emotion out of investing. Warren Buffet's advice is still among the best ever: "If you don't want to own a stock for 10 years why own it for 10 minutes?". 

-DallanC


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## scartinez (Apr 22, 2008)

I put in for only 1 antlerless hunt per year and buy points for the other species. As you draw, you can switch species the next year and probably get a tag. Keep doing this and you'll get an antlerless tag most years. Elk only every 3 to 4 but enjoy hunting doe pronghorn and doe deer between.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think people that have historically done what has now been described twice above by rotating species and drawing tags every year or almost every year are going to have a shock to the system the next few years when they see how much these draw odds have changed recently. 

We're all in the same boat. And it's not a comfortable one!


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Throw in some out of state antlerless hunts in the rotation and you can be in slick head tag city every year. Yeah--folks will think you are nuts for driving 8 hours to hunt a cow elk but it's better than sitting on the couch! Or just get smart and hunt birds 

If getting rich was easy everyone would be doing it! But to CPAjeff's point, one can earn extra money on side hustles, I have one, make about $5k a year flash money, problem is it gets gobbled up with other crap and is not solely for hunting--**** wife and kids are pricey! Plus the miser in me would have a tough time dropping $5k on a single hunt.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Yes, an out of state strategy definitely helps in obtaining tags. That can become quite expensive, however. It's all about what people are willing and/or able to do.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> Yes, an out of state strategy definitely helps in obtaining tags. That can become quite expensive, however. It's all about what people are willing and/or able to do.


You're not lying. Back in 2016 I started applying in almost all other western states, and it's VERY expensive. I'm 6 years in now, too far to quit, but I'd definitely tone it down some now.

The only thing keeping me going is that in 15-20 years i'll have some SWEET hunts..


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Here's the secret . . . on the side hustle, explain to the wife that you're wanting to enjoying something you love, all-the-while, not taking any money away from the family. Split the side hustle money 50/50 with her so she can enjoy what she loves to do also. Offer to watch the kids so she can have a break weekly (HUGE HUGE HUGE game changer), and ensure the whole family gets invited on the hunt!!!

Trust me, it works!!!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Yes, an out of state strategy definitely helps in obtaining tags. That can become quite expensive, however. It's all about what people are willing and/or able to do.


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## Brave arrow (Dec 24, 2017)

CPAjeff said:


> Here's the secret . . . on the side hustle, explain to the wife that you're wanting to enjoying something you love, all-the-while, not taking any money away from the family. Split the side hustle money 50/50 with her so she can enjoy what she loves to do also. Offer to watch the kids so she can have a break weekly (HUGE HUGE HUGE game changer), and ensure the whole family gets invited on the hunt!!!
> 
> Trust me, it works!!!


Just be careful it works a little too well I tried it and my hunting expenses doubled so now I work two side hustles


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Can I say I have a side hustle if I just work a bunch of extra hours at my regular hustle? Saying I have a side hustle sounds so much more inspiring than saying I live at my work.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Can I say I have a side hustle if I just work a bunch of extra hours at my regular hustle? Saying I have a side hustle sounds so much more inspiring than saying I live at my work.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I worked 7-6, six days a week for many, many years. I never had time for a side hustle. But I made good money being in management so I never had to worry about that. 
I put a bunch away, and had some fun with some, and took really good care of the kids with some. 
It all worked out very well. Now I'm comfortably retired. 
Just wish I wasn't on a first name basis with so many doctors 😃


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> View attachment 152190


No me gusta trabajo


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

2full said:


> I worked 7-6, six days a week for many, many years. I never had time for a side hustle. But I made good money being in management so I never had to worry about that.
> I put a bunch away, and had some fun with some, and took really good care of the kids with some.
> It all worked out very well. Now I'm comfortably retired.
> Just wish I wasn't on a first name basis with so many doctors 😃


It was well-earned. I can't imagine the number of "Karens" you must have encountered over all those yesrs.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

colorcountrygunner said:


> It was well-earned. I can't imagine the number of "Karens" you must have encountered over all those yesrs.


More than a few. 
Wayyyy more.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> No me gusta trabajo


Then the question becomes not whether you like work...but whether you like hunting more than you dislike work. Something something pareto optimality point, elasticity of utility curves, something something.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Then the question becomes not whether you like work...but whether you like hunting more than you dislike work. Something something pareto optimality point, elasticity of utility curves, something something.


1) buy bidet for optimal cleanliness
2) start onlyfans account
3) ?????
4) profit


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)




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## aperventure (7 mo ago)

for some reason one can get 3 elk tags, but also I didn't draw antlerless with 5 points. so I'm not sure what is going on?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

aperventure said:


> for some reason one can get 3 elk tags, but also I didn't draw antlerless with 5 points. so I'm not sure what is going on?


Pants and knickers off. Sit down on the throne. Throw the throttle wide open on the bidet (heated or al fresco, dealer's choice). Ride the wave until your thoughts are clear. Thank me later.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

aperventure said:


> for some reason one can get 3 elk tags, but also I didn't draw antlerless with 5 points. so I'm not sure what is going on?


it’s a choice to not draw a cow tag with 5 points. The majority of the hunts in the state can be drawn with 4-5 points. Change units or seasons.

I like being able to have 3 elk tags a year. Sure makes for a fun few minutes when you find the right herd in the right spot 😎


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

Yes a few minutes of fun when the shooting begins, but hours and hours of not quite as much fun after that. But I really do enjoy it all. It is worth the work!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I like the way all of you think. Keep it up.

Rotate tags. Go out of state. Hunt doe PH and deer. Just keep hunting. I'm enjoying the solitude on our waters.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

PBH said:


> I like the way all of you think. Keep it up.
> 
> Rotate tags. Go out of state. Hunt doe PH and deer. Just keep hunting. I'm enjoying the solitude on our waters.


And we are enjoying you not in the woods? 🤷‍♂️


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

PBH said:


> I like the way all of you think. Keep it up.
> 
> Rotate tags. Go out of state. Hunt doe PH and deer. Just keep hunting. I'm enjoying the solitude on our waters.


I’ve been on a lot of the waters in this State. Solitude is the last thing you will get on many of them. But there are the occasional gems.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> I’ve been on a lot of the waters in this State. Solitude is the last thing you will get on many of them. But there are the occasional gems.



Lake Powell during the rifle deer hunt is pretty peacful. And the weather can be nice too.
Last year we floated the Green below Fontanelle a couple times in early September -- never saw another float-boat on the water those two days.


Time your fishing trips during deer / elk hunts, and you cut out a lot of the fluff.
Vanilla -- you in this year? or you going to keep wasting time trying to get tags and chasing after the 30-pointer?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> Time your fishing trips during deer / elk hunts, and you cut out a lot of the fluff.
> Vanilla -- you in this year? or you going to keep wasting time trying to get tags and chasing after the 30-pointer?


Did I just get a Lake Powell fishing trip invite????


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Better take him up on it while there is still a lake to fish.

-DallanC


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I was thinking Wyoming. But maybe we'll figure out the Powell trip. Right now, that trip is in the air for this year -- launching in October could be out of the question. But a drive-in shore camp to Blue Notch, and fishing from pontoons and rubber rafts might be in the cards.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Vanilla said:


> Did I just get a Lake Powell fishing trip invite????


I did a solitary camp to Knowles for almost a week 1.5 months ago.
Take PBH up on his offer!


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## aperventure (7 mo ago)

i prefer using the brown volcano



johnnycake said:


> Pants and knickers off. Sit down on the throne. Throw the throttle wide open on the bidet (heated or al fresco, dealer's choice). Ride the wave until your thoughts are clear. Thank me later.


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## aperventure (7 mo ago)

always learning... apparently I didn't learn the right units this year.
ha! that's a long couple days aftewards I'll bet.



MooseMeat said:


> it’s a choice to not draw a cow tag with 5 points. The majority of the hunts in the state can be drawn with 4-5 points. Change units or seasons.
> 
> I like being able to have 3 elk tags a year. Sure makes for a fun few minutes when you find the right herd in the right spot 😎


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## super chicken (Nov 5, 2014)

That was a good draw, successful for antlerless elk, doe deer, and doe pronghorn. If I would have drawn the ewe it would have been a clean sweep


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