# Draw for general elk? How to do it?



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Based on the discussion in the other threads, it looks like there will probably be an increasing push to make general elk tags a drawn opportunity rather than an annual tech-support nightmare. If that's the writing that's on the wall, I think it might be useful to discuss the logistics of how the draw might work (so we can have good ideas ready to pass on to the RACs/WB when they start discussing it).

Here are a few ideas I've had:

1: Create a new preference point category for "general elk". These points would not be linked specifically to spike or any bull - you could use them to go for either, and change from year to year if you want. Leftovers would be sold OTC.

2: Create preference points each for spike and any bull. You must pick only one each year. Leftovers sold OTC.

3: Full random draw, no points. Leftovers sold OTC.

My preference is #3. I'm curious to see what others think.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Clarq said:


> Based on the discussion in the other threads, it looks like there will probably be an increasing push to make general elk tags a drawn opportunity rather than an annual tech-support nightmare. If that's the writing that's on the wall, I think it might be useful to discuss the logistics of how the draw might work (so we can have good ideas ready to pass on to the RACs/WB when they start discussing it).
> 
> Here are a few ideas I've had:
> 
> ...


Currently spike and any bull tags are completely separate, correct? I would think the draws should stay separate, so I'd go #2.

I'd prefer #2 to #3 just for fairness. If you miss this year, you get better odds of drawing next year. 

There should also be a set number of resident vs non-resident tags.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

If they must..... i'd say run it like general deer. Keep things to the same general season standard across the board.

That said, i'm hoping theres an alternative to a draw, or First come first serve OTC. For the life of me I can't think of it though. I like having a guaranteed tag every year. I literally, live to hunt. All winter I look forward to spring turkey, all summer i'm scouting for fall, and all of fall i'm hunting multiseason because I suck and can't fill my tag.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I dislike more points, paying for more points, and more entitlement because people have points. I also would like to see some fairness in distribution. 

For General Elk, I'd say those who didn't have a permit last year get preference in the permit distribution over those who had a permit last year. Once those who didn't get a permit last year have their chance to obtain one then the rest can try to purchase the leftovers. This could be done in a draw or still maintain online sales, with those who didn't have a permit the year before being able to purchase the day before. 

I think we are years away from there being more than 60,000 people demanding an elk tag.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

My vote is for #3 - everything else is based on points, can't we just have one true random draw in the state?? 

When elk goes to a draw, I'd expect it to align mostly with how the general deer draw operates currently. I'd like to see the any-bull, multi-season, and spike tags all be in the same draw - leftovers are sold on a first-come-first-served basis.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Packout said:


> I dislike more points, paying for more points, and more entitlement because people have points. I also would like to see some fairness in distribution.
> 
> For General Elk, I'd say those who didn't have a permit last year get preference in the permit distribution over those who had a permit last year. Once those who didn't get a permit last year have their chance to obtain one then the rest can try to purchase the leftovers. This could be done in a draw or still maintain online sales, with those who didn't have a permit the year before being able to purchase the day before.
> 
> I think we are years away from there being more than 60,000 people demanding an elk tag.


So are you saying I should have to wait to buy a rifle spike tag this year since I chose to buy an OTC general archery tag last year with an unlimited quota? Or would that only apply if I had a gun tag last year?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

No matter how it is set up you are going to have those who are going to complain. 

I like the idea of combining all elk points and draws into a single draw. Anterless and bull tags together. Then if someone wants to spend a bunch of points on a cow or calf they can if not then they can put in for a bull tag, or if they have a bunch of anterless points and want to spend them on a bull elk tag then let them. I know a number of hunters that play the point game on anterless and quite often have 2 elk tags the same year. They put in for areas that a lot of other hunters won't hunt so their odds are greater in the anterless draw. With this suggestion they will be down to a single chance per year for a elk tag. 

With the point creep on the anterless tags something is going to have to be done with them. If hunters want more opportunity they may have to settle for just one elk tag every few years irregardless of the sex.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> So are you saying I should have to wait to buy a rifle spike tag this year since I chose to buy an OTC general archery tag last year with an unlimited quota? Or would that only apply if I had a gun tag last year?


No. I'd think it would just be dealing with any-weapon/ml/multi. As archery is unlimited, I wouldn't see a need to consider those. 

Of course this is all just ideas thrown around. I don't want a draw and spend another $40-50 for apps/points. Then deal with all the games played with the draw system.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> No matter how it is set up you are going to have those who are going to complain.
> 
> I like the idea of combining all elk points and draws into a single draw. Anterless and bull tags together. Then if someone wants to spend a bunch of points on a cow or calf they can if not then they can put in for a bull tag, or if they have a bunch of anterless points and want to spend them on a bull elk tag then let them. I know a number of hunters that play the point game on anterless and quite often have 2 elk tags the same year. They put in for areas that a lot of other hunters won't hunt so their odds are greater in the anterless draw. With this suggestion they will be down to a single chance per year for a elk tag.
> 
> With the point creep on the anterless tags something is going to have to be done with them. If hunters want more opportunity they may have to settle for just one elk tag every few years irregardless of the sex.


I could see limiting a hunter to one elk tag per year be it LE or general or antlerless. I don't want to see "get any elk tag and lose all points"
I don't think the situation in Utah is dire enough to make a radical change like that. I think most the point creep on antlerless is caused by people having to draw their favorite area rather than hunt a less known area.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I'm sure SFW will make the decision for all of us.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

How about there being a chance to buy a Lifetime Elk license before elk tags go the way of the deer tags, just like the option offered in the early 90’s before deer draws?
Yea, right…..


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

How about unlimited tags, but arbitrary rules on hunting equipment to make the hunt harder. 🤡


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

Interesting question. Of the ideas you've come up with, I like #1 the best philosophically--just let people apply for a general elk tag. However, I think that will be complicated to actually implement because different units have different restrictions. Logistically, I think it makes the most sense to go with #2 and require people to apply for certain units (like general deer).


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

If you are going to move General season Elk to a draw, Step 1 is to rename it and drop the word "General" from it. It would at that point be just another LE unit but without spike tags.

-DallanC


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

1) Eliminate the multi-season 2) Wednesday opener with 10 day season (one weekend) 3) $100 tag 4) Discontinue the option to take antlerless during GS if you have early/late dates.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

The "general" tags are mentioned as such because it is during the "general" rifle season. If you named it differently, I'd think you would have units to name (same as the "general" deer units) Break the Elk tags up for archery, muzzle-loader, and rifle. The archery could still be unlimited for tags, but the rifle and ML would have to be draw and you would apply for an ANY BULL or a SPIKE BULL tag. 

The other issue by going to a draw is.....If your applying for a LE Elk tag, and a GS Elk, you draw the GS tag will it remove you from the pool of the LE tag you applied for???? That would have to be a separate thing of its own I'd think. I guess it all depends on the draw order of species. I know if you apply for a LE tag and a OIL tag, and you draw the LE it eliminates you from the OIL opportunity.

It's a big ball of yarn that is unraveling and someone is trying to wind it all back up nice and neat.

I would vote for option #3 above.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

i'd like to see some data first. how many unique ip addresses were trying to purchase an anybull tag? i'd guess there were many less than total devices trying to log in. 

other ideas that probably aren't very good:

split each season in half and sell first half, second half tags (rifle, muzzle, and hams)
that creates more tags and gets more people out hunting without overcrowding. 

i realize this creates more tags and could put more pressure on elk but have you seen the harvest numbers? it's not like we're as deadly as we think.

i love and use the 3 season tag in years i don't get an antlerless tag but ditching it would help somewhat. if you were to survey hunters with the 3 season tag i'd bet 75% were archery only hunters before its inception.

edit: no preference points. we've seen how well those work. it's like moving the population of LA into SLC without any infrastructure changes.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

middlefork said:


> I could see limiting a hunter to one elk tag per year be it LE or general or antlerless. I don't want to see "get any elk tag and lose all points"
> I don't think the situation in Utah is dire enough to make a radical change like that. I think most the point creep on antlerless is caused by people having to draw their favorite area rather than hunt a less known area.


that is an interesting idea. what would you think about having tags for both general bull and antlerless in certain areas but you hunt is over after you take the first elk, similar to the 3 season tag ends when you get the first kill.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Most regulations now are for "hunter management". The reason multi-season, hunt antlerless during other seasons/tags, control tags, PL tags exist is to kill elk that are not being killed in numbers that meet the objectives otherwise. It is a pretty hard balancing act.

So far I think they have done a pretty good job. But those that complain of hunter crowding are as much or more to blame for all the hoops as the amount of elk themselves.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

Maybe people should quit being lazy and drive to a store. Every year people on here make it seem like some big ordeal to buy there OTC elk tag. But I have never had to wait more than 10 minutes to buy a tag over a real counter.

Maybe they should change the name of the tags to OTK, over the keyboard.

But seriously, if someone really cares about scoring there OTC elk tag than they should be able to find 30 minutes to drive to a store.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

I don’t think we need to go to a draw. We live in a world where we now expect instant gratification. So you had to wait in a line in the license system for a few hours to buy your tag. If you waited your turn, you got a tag. I haven’t heard of anyone yet who was on line or in line at 8 am yesterday that didn’t get a tag. The only ones I’m hearing complain are the guys who put it off until it was too late. Take time off work and go to Walmart when they go on sale. Get online and wait for your turn when they go on sale. They weren’t gone in minutes. It was almost 10 hours. If you cared enough to get the tag, you made it a priority yesterday. If you make getting the tag a priority, you’ll probably actually make the effort to go hunt on that tag. Nothing I hate more than guys applying for tags with little to no desire to actually go hunt on it, they just want it in their pocket “just in case”. That just eats up opportunities for guys that do want to go hunt.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Regarding status quo—if the DWR upgrades their system and folks can buy without waiting online these tags would sell out in 3 hours—it’s the slow system that prolonged the sale out time. I respect the sentiment to keep it OTC but within a few years the demand is going to far outweigh supply and we will have Black Friday but for hunting tags—stampedes and camp outs at Walmart—who wants that? 

We could hobble along for a few more OTC years but the levy is gonna break.

Everyone needs to remember that the DWRs proposal last year was unlimited tags. Personally I think that is a horrible idea. We need to fight that regardless unless you want to see 30k+ hunters in the limited any bull areas. Crazy pants!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Everyone needs to remember that the DWRs proposal last year was unlimited tags.

Ya, that's a good idea at all. But look at it this way....If they did do that and a freak snow year happened and pushed the Elk low and exposed them easily, it could be a slaughter of the Elk. Then we wouldn't have to debate as to how tags should be sold. There wouldn't be anything to go after the following year. 

With this drought that has settled in the last couple years, I think its going to send a few 1st time Elk hunters packing it up for future tags. It isn't easy and your going to have to "HUNT" this year I think.


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

ns450f said:


> Maybe people should quit being lazy and drive to a store. Every year people on here make it seem like some big ordeal to buy there OTC elk tag. But I have never had to wait more than 10 minutes to buy a tag over a real counter.
> 
> Maybe they should change the name of the tags to OTK, over the keyboard.
> 
> But seriously, if someone really cares about scoring there OTC elk tag than they should be able to find 30 minutes to drive to a store.


So no online sales, only lines out the door at every licensee agent? Then we'd be back here whining about that! 😁


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Airborne said:


> Everyone needs to remember that the DWRs proposal last year was unlimited tags. Personally I think that is a horrible idea. We need to fight that regardless unless you want to see 30k+ hunters in the limited any bull areas. Crazy pants!


While I certainly sympathize with that concern, I think for the most part that _most _people who want a tag actually do get one. I think that the unlimited option wouldn't produce that many more tags sold. Considering the success rate curretnly, and the fact that A LOT of "hunters" don't even get out of the truck, the only hunter congestion would be on the roads. It would be louder than all hell with the machines all over the road, I say try it or go to an Idaho style random draw every year. Do it EARLY though so we can have contingencies in place.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

None of the above. You all are in search of a problem for your solution.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

CAExpat said:


> So no online sales, only lines out the door at every licensee agent? Then we'd be back here whining about that! 😁


Yep.... Some people don't remember the standing in line for the deer tags back in the 90's. Camping overnight.......it was a nightmare.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

2full said:


> Yep.... Some people don't remember the standing in line for the deer tags back in the 90's. Camping overnight.......it was a nightmare.


Somehow that added in a little bit of fun and excitement to the process. That along with the way that they posted who drew out by hanging the computer printouts in the windows of their offices.


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## callofthewild2 (May 10, 2021)

Oh i remember the camping out until midnight. my wife came with me to rub it in that she has a lifetime license.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

taxidermist said:


> Everyone needs to remember that the DWRs proposal last year was unlimited tags.
> 
> Ya, that's a good idea at all. But look at it this way....If they did do that and a freak snow year happened and pushed the Elk low and exposed them easily, it could be a slaughter of the Elk. Then we wouldn't have to debate as to how tags should be sold. There wouldn't be anything to go after the following year.


Mandatory reporting could solve that. Although it would really only be a muzzleloader concern. Deep snow can happen but it's much less likely that enough snow falls in early October (rifle season) and sticks around long enough to move the elk out of the high country. They tend to stick it out until there's more than 3 feet on the ground. Most of the time it's settled to 20" within 2 days and possibly melted on all but the north aspects within a week. It takes them a few days to get moving on the early storms where I hunt. Even then the stop when the snow lessens. Those early season storms are typically elevation dependant and result in rain at lower elevations.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

CAExpat said:


> So no online sales, only lines out the door at every licensee agent? Then we'd be back here whining about that! 😁


Absolutely, having to stand in line for more than 30 minutes would probably deter all the guys who think hunting consists of getting drunk and driving their noisy vehicles places they shouldn't because they are too lazy to get out and walk. Those types would most likely be too lazy to stand in line for more than 30 minutes.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

Just a reminder that archery permits are already unlimited. If people really 'just want to hunt' the opportunity is there. I get tired of the 'everyone gets a trophy' mentality where people feel they are entitled to a tag just because they want something. If they really want it, make it a priority and put in the effort (wait in a store queue, wait online, take time off work etc.). 

If they can't\won't do that, they can't complain about not getting a tag. In the time it takes to complain about the system online, they could have purchased an unlimited archery tag and go kill elk. I could even argue you'll have more opportunity to 'hunt' given the length of the season. 

There is no excuse. And trying to manage hunter expectations through any proposal to make people happy isn't the answer. Manage the animals\herd, and those that put in the effort(see above) will be happier as there will be better quality and opportunity for everyone on every hunt. Institute mandatory harvest reporting. Data storage is cheap and validation rules to keep those who don't enter data from purchasing future permits is easy to implement. I would pay another $20-$50 on my tag if it meant more biologists and resources to manage the herd and less policy and politicians managing us.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree with the mandatory reporting! That should be done on all species and not wait for a phone survey from volunteers.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The problem with mandatory reporting on a general tag where you can hunt most of the state is that hunters won't report accurately as far as where the animal was shot, days afield, and satisfaction with the hunt. 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> The problem with mandatory reporting on a general tag where you can hunt most of the state is that hunters won't report accurately as far as where the animal was shot, days afield, and satisfaction with the hunt.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


Seems to work just great up in Alaska. If I don't fill out harvest ticket reports within 15 days of the end of a given season then I cannot apply for draw tags the following application period. Do some folks lie? Sure, can't fix the human sphincters. But overall the data is pretty reliable.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That's it,I know a number of hunters who have never filled out a trueful survey or report.

Thay could of filled all the tags in the family and they will report that they were very unsatisfied with the hunt, and as long as they don't have to show their unfilled tag they will report that they didn't see a thing to shoot at. 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

It's a sorry state of affairs if you can't rely on hunters accurately reporting harvest. Not that I put them on a pedestal But would it be any less accurate than the current surveys?

DH have to surrender their unused tag to verify that no harvest occurred. Yet the rumor out there is that most if not all never tag the deer they shoot. At least in my group that is unequivocally false.

Are there people out there who will game the system? Yes there are. But I like to think most our fellow sportsmen try to stay between the lines.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> That's it,I know a number of hunters who have never filled out a trueful survey or report.
> 
> Thay could of filled all the tags in the family and they will report that they were very unsatisfied with the hunt, and as long as they don't have to show their unfilled tag they will report that they didn't see a thing to shoot at.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


You hang out with the wrong crowd.

Being honest used to be something that had value! I long for those days.


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## Bookcliffs07 (Aug 11, 2020)

I wish they would have implemented the DWR and Statewide Elk Committee recommendations from last year. It would have added a handful of new any bull units and given unlimited any bull tags. Elk are so freaking good at avoiding pressure, unlimited bull tags would not have had any biological impact on elk herds. We might have actually harvested fewer elk!

Utahns love scarcity or perceived scarcity, getting a tag is considered a win in and of itself. If the tags were OTC I wonder if they might actually sell fewer tags after a few years of people experiencing success rates in the low teens? I know that when they got rid of the ML300 hunt I never even bought a OTC muzzleloader bull tag. Before it went OTC I think I had 3 points. I never even bought one once I realized it wasn't actually that great and I could just buy it every year.

I predict that if this goes to a draw within less than 10 years 

people will have to build points to draw and then they will feel entitled to a certain type of elk hunt
they will complain about how hard the hunt is and how the resource isn't being managed correctly
the momentum will build and the trophy oriented guys will push to get "general" tags set unit by unit
after the tags go unit by unit they will demand tag cuts to make the hunt higher quality
next the rifle and muzz guys will make archery tags a draw too because it won't be fair that those guys get to hunt every year and get first crack at the bulls
the ability to hunt elk on a regular basis will go away, even for folks wanting to hunt with a bow

They might as well just skip ahead and make all of any bull units 4.5-5 year old limited entry units and get rid of the spike hunt. That way they would at least not have to deal with the cluster of having 2 point systems for elk like we do for deer.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> You hang out with the wrong crowd.
> 
> Being honest used to be something that had value! I long for those days.


A lot of those who would lie on a survey have a huge distrust of the DWR. The believe that there is a huge data base somewhere that allows the DWR employees a huge advantage when it comes down to draws and hunting animals. 

I remember going through checking stations with them during the deer hunts years ago. They wouldn't answer a single question truthfully other than that they had been hunting. One asked me to help him with a moose OIL tag survey. I flat out told him that I was going to put down the truth. He just couldn't believe that was what I was going to do. One time on a bison hunt after the bison was down I asked him about the blood vile, he said that he had thrown it away as soon as he got it and that all that the DWR needed to know was that he had a bison tag. When I explained to him that he would be out of the draws in the future he emptied out a canteen so that we could place some blood into it. He then called the DWR and said that he had misplaced the vile. 

The only consolation is that neither of these hunters hunt anymore.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Like I said, you hang out with the wrong people.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> A lot of those who would lie on a survey have a huge distrust of the DWR. The believe that there is a huge data base somewhere that allows the DWR employees a huge advantage…


I don’t buy that at all. I have more distrust for DWR employees out there than anyone, and I don’t think they look at information gathered in a survey other than the actual data. It’s these peoples Job to work with wildlife throughout the state. You really believe they don’t already know the ‘good’ just by doing their job? That’s not an excuse to lie on a survey.

I might not give exact locations on where stuff was killed, but I’ll never not do a survey or not give the unit a tag was filled. If I killed, it’s always a 5 rating. You got to go hunting. You had the Opportunity. You filled a tag. What more did you want out of it? Be honest on your surveys. 

sorry to hear you chose to keep such shady and negative company while hunting. If people i hunt with start doing stupid stuff or dishonest stuff, I don’t hunt with them anymore. Even family members.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I agree that the information that is on the surveys isn't really worth pulling it out of the data base as far as using as a hunting tool. 

But most of these hunters were in their 50's and 60's back in the 60's and had a huge distrust of the DWR. 

As I also mentioned the ones that are left are no longer hunting. But it was interesting pulling into a checking station and them giving wrong locations, how long they had hunted and other answers to the questions. I also know a couple of their sons do the same thing when questioned.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> I agree that the information that is on the surveys isn't really worth pulling it out of the data base as far as using as a hunting tool.
> 
> But most of these hunters were in their 50's and 60's back in the 60's and had a huge distrust of the DWR.
> 
> As I also mentioned the ones that are left are no longer hunting. But it was interesting pulling into a checking station and them giving wrong locations, how long they had hunted and other answers to the questions. I also know a couple of their sons do the same thing when questioned.


Yeah, again, Alaska has been doing mandatory reporting for decades. I still maintain that the bay majority of hunters, regardless of generation, are honest in those reports. And it's better to have slightly flawed data than zero data in my opinion.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Johnny…exactly! Those that argue against mandatory reporting because they and some of their friends will lie on them seriously make no sense. For a lot of reasons.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Don’t do it. Simple 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

No need to go to a draw for general elk. We're not even close yet! So you had to wait for a few hours on the computer (OK, maybe 5 or 6 hours)...big deal. Go to a license agent. With online sales, in store lines are pretty much a thing of the past. If demand starts to really put a crimp in elk tags, I'd go along with what Packout recommended...if you got a tag before (excluding archery), you're at the back of the line for the following year. That, or make it one tag per year, period. That would free up all sorts of space for those trying to just get "a tag".

No draw period! I'm tired of preference points, bonus points, entitled hunters who think their 15 points guarantee them a slam dunk hunt, app fees, etc., etc. Just buy a tag a go hunt before it becomes a thing of the past!


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

> If demand starts to really put a crimp in elk tags


Tags sold out in hours on the first day, two years in a row; what does a "crimp" look like to you? Honestly curious. What's your solution to the hunters (resident and non-resident) who are not in the state the day tags go on sale (business travel, military deployments, shift work etc.)?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

CAExpat said:


> Tags sold out in hours on the first day, two years in a row; what does a "crimp" look like to you? Honestly curious. What's your solution to the hunters (resident and non-resident) who are not in the state the day tags go on sale (business travel, military deployments, shift work etc.)?


It’s called the internet. I know it’s a new concept, but that’s how you get tags to people who can’t stand in line and buy one in person


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There are a lot of people out there that might not have access to the internet during the day until they get home. 

Back in my working days I very seldom had access to the internet nor did most of my coworkers until I got home at 5 or 6 pm


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

MooseMeat said:


> It’s called the internet. I know it’s a new concept, but that’s how you get tags to people who can’t stand in line and buy one in person


It's called reading, top to bottom, left to right, we group words together and put them into a sentence. His whole point was to go wait in line at a retail store, I asked what alternative he offered to those who couldn't do that.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> There are a lot of people out there that might not have access to the internet during the day until they get home.
> 
> Back in my working days I very seldom had access to the internet nor did most of my coworkers until I got home at 5 or 6 pm


Here’s the crazy part! Those things in our pockets most of us can’t function without, have internet access too! You don’t need to be at your house OR on a computer to get a tag!

im certain we all could find someone and arrange with them to snag us a permit online if we couldn’t get on line to get one ourselves. If there’s a will, there’s a way. If it means enough to you, then you WILL find a way to make it happen.

this is no different than getting tickets to a football game or concert. There’s only a certain amount available to the public, you have to wait in line or be on line in a certain time frame. If you aren’t, you don’t get a ticket. They don’t hold drawing for football tickets or concert tickets. They are FC, FS. General elk tags should be no different


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

CAExpat said:


> It's called reading, top to bottom, left to right, we group words together and put them into a sentence. His whole point was to go wait in line at a retail store, I asked what alternative he offered to those who couldn't do that.


I offered an alternative that I THOUGHT was obvious. Apparently the INTERNET was a new idea for you.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Can you imagine needing 3 points to hunt for a spike with less than a 15% chance of harvesting?

Goodness some of you must hate hunting!


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## cedar (Jul 29, 2013)

Currently we have enough different point systems in utah. leave OTC opportunity for those who did not draw any tag.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

It’s funny to see guys screaming for opportunity hunting, then they get opportunity hunting and start screaming for limited hunting again.

no draw. No points. We have that for everything else and it’s a mess and only going to get worse. Wait your turn in line when the time comes or don’t get a tag. But don’t make your lack of prioritization a problem for everyone else.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

One thing has become absolutely clear to me the last few years: whatever the system, people are going to complain. We could completely revamp everything exactly as proposed on this forum and I’d wager those unhappy and complaining now will remain unhappy and complain then too.

I like hunting. I’ll maximize the opportunities that I have and enjoy the time I get. I’m not interested in making things even harder, personally.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

A wise man once said, "Even in the golden age of time, undoubtedly, someone complained that everything looked too yellow."


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Couldn't have said it better Moose - if it is important to you to hunt, you will find a way to do it. I don't buy the "I have no internet access" excuse. If u are out of state, that might be your best bet. For those of us in state, standing in line is a valid option.

There are many better options than a draw for general elk - many already discussed in this thread. 2 years of selling out same day doesn't sound so "normal" when you add in that those sales were boosted by COVID hysteria. Enough with the draw shenanigans!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Here is a novel idea, instead of starting the process at 8am how about starting it at 6pm and only allowing each person to purchase two tags.

The same with in person sales, start at 6pm and only allow 2 tags.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Critter said:


> Here is a novel idea, instead of starting the process at 8am how about starting it at 6pm and only allowing each person to purchase two tags.
> 
> The same with in person sales, start at 6pm and only allow 2 tags.


It's a government deal. 
They can only do 8-5 with weekends and Holidays off. Starting something at 6 pm would not fly. 
Only the field officers have to work other hours.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Then just restrict all purchases to just 2 tags, in person or online.

But it isn't like they shut down the ability to purchase a tag after 5 pm.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

I'll say it again, if you won't make purchasing an any weapon tag your priority, Archery is still unlimited and available. Youth any weapon permits are also unlimited OTC. 

Can everyone please stop saying that there isn't opportunity to hunt elk otc every year as that statement is 100% false.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

justismi28 said:


> I'll say it again, if you won't make purchasing an any weapon tag your priority, Archery is still unlimited and available. Youth any weapon permits are also unlimited OTC.
> 
> Can everyone please stop saying that there isn't opportunity to hunt elk otc every year as that statement is 100% false.


Let's not let facts get in the way of emotional and illogical arguments all the sudden. That would be a tragedy!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Continue to squabble, peasants, over your precious limited hunting opportunities. It amuses me.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

How about implementing the plan proposed by the biologists last fall that the wildlife board dismissed at the last minute?

This included unlimited OTC tags and additional any bull areas. Instead the board proposed and passed their own agenda (the new HAMS hunts) during the meeting, completely disregarding the biologist and RAC recommendations.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

brisket said:


> How about implementing the plan proposed by the biologists last fall that the wildlife board dismissed at the last minute?
> 
> This included unlimited OTC tags and additional any bull areas. Instead the board proposed and passed their own agenda (the new HAMS hunts) during the meeting, completely disregarding the biologist and RAC recommendations.


Because a lot of us don't want to see 30k+ elk hunters on the any bull elk areas during the hunt. 

Archery is unlimited and awesome because by it's nature archery hunting is self limiting--rifle, not so much.

So in the future if we maintain the OTC fire sale model I would like it on record for those supporters of this fashion--In what OTC situation would you switch your opinion to a draw or other fashion? What if the DWR gets a high speed online system in the future and the tags all sell out in an hour. Would then it be time for a draw? What about a half hour--would then it be time of a draw or would it still be about priorities, waiting in lines, and 'if it's important enough for ya to make it happen'?

Think in hypotheticals folks--I want to know your OTC to draw threshold! 

Also, the whole sit out a year if you drew the year before proposal is just a draw but with extra steps so let's not pretend it's not--it's exactly what preference points do. Not being rude, just speakin the truth.

And finally, I only do this because several posts on this thread have been accusatory that folks supporting a draw don't like to hunt which is a question of Credibility which happens to be in my department on UWN. As such, folks that are relaying these cloaked accusations should have a high level of 'Cred'. Moose, Johnny, an others have posted amazing things and therefore have attained the Cred level to talk smack. Although I am embarrassed that I don't remember seeing a hunting pic or story from Vanilla. My apologies good sir, but for Cred purposes could you please post up several pics of you and a big game animals that you have killed therefor earning the level of Cred to talk smack on those wanting a draw. It's only fair sir! 🤪


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Plus hunting pics are cool and it would spice up the forum (and boy does this thread need some spicing up!) so post em up Vanilla!


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Not everyone has to put up pics to gain cred.......
Besides, I think you can go back into the forum and see previous posts and pics.

You can go check mine out if you want, but I'm not sure I have much cred.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

2full said:


> Not everyone has to put up pics to gain cred.......
> Besides, I think you can go back into the forum and see previous posts and pics.
> 
> You can go check mine out if you want, but I'm not sure I have much cred.


Um--yes we do have to post up pics and stories to have cred, otherwise we may be debating a 14 years old cross-eyed Lithuanian! Who wants to waste time doing that!

You have plenty of Cred 2full and I remember plenty of stories from you!

I can't for the life of me remember Vanilla stories and pics--I apologize up front if I have missed out on those that he has posted. But honestly--couldn't this thread use a pic of an elk? Here is one for ya just to be fair--my biggest any bull elk with my coveted OTC tag:


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Now, that there line about the cross eyed dude is funny......I don't care what anybody says.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Here's another elk picture. I helped an old friend on his elk hunt in 07. We got him this bull on the 5th morning. Hadn't seen a thing all morning. Was on the way back to camp to get some breakfast and caught the bull just a above the Beaver pond. 
His first bull, and he was using my 30.06. 
It took me till last year to talk him into mounting it. 
We brought it back from the taxidermist last Weds. 

Edit: it was a OTC tag.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Awesome pic 2full!!! Great bull! Thanks for posting it!


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

2full said:


> Here's another elk picture. I helped an old friend on his elk hunt in 07. We got him this bull on the 5th morning. Hadn't seen a thing all morning. Was on the way back to camp to get some breakfast and caught the bull just a above the Beaver pond.
> His first bull, and he was using my 30.06.
> It took me till last year to talk him into mounting it.
> We brought it back from the taxidermist last Weds.
> View attachment 148646


Nice bull. One day maybe for me. This year and probably next year are a total wash. One of the only negatives of deploying this year. But hey one less person to worry about in the mountain if that helps lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

This is the best I’ve got for ya, Airborne. My best selfie from earlier today.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

And in answer to your question, how smoothly (or not) the purchasing process goes will NEVER be the deciding factor in my mind to go from OTC to a draw.

My short answer is that I seriously doubt I would ever support getting rid of the last OTC elk opportunities we have in our state. But I like hunting and I like others to be able to hunt too.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I will say this for soft serve, he once shot an incredible buck on an Expo tag.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Airborne said:


> Moose, Johnny, an others have posted amazing things and therefore have attained the Cred level to talk smack. Although I am embarrassed that I don't remember seeing a hunting pic or story from Vanilla. My apologies good sir, but for Cred purposes could you please post up several pics of you and a big game animals that you have killed therefor earning the level of Cred to talk smack on those wanting a draw. It's only fair sir! 🤪


I have no cred here, just ask back country. I’ve only been part of 50+ elk kills in utah, 95% on general public land hunts… doesn’t even sound like he’s killed 1. Maybe that’s why he’s so snarky on his remarks towards me.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

justismi28 said:


> I'll say it again, if you won't make purchasing an any weapon tag your priority, Archery is still unlimited and available. Youth any weapon permits are also unlimited OTC.
> 
> Can everyone please stop saying that there isn't opportunity to hunt elk otc every year as that statement is 100% false.


Archery doesn't need any advertising. Last year in one area I frequent, there were so many hunters (both new and old) it was just like rifle season, only with bows. Year before that, only saw 2 other hunters in the same area, and those guys I bumped into on the road, not in the field.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Archery doesn't need any advertising. Last year in one area I frequent, there were so many hunters (both new and old) it was just like rifle season, only with bows. Year before that, only saw 2 other hunters in the same area, and those guys I bumped into on the road, not in the field.


Sounds like we hunted the same spot. It was a zoo on the opener.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Archery doesn't need any advertising. Last year in one area I frequent, there were so many hunters (both new and old) it was just like rifle season, only with bows. Year before that, only saw 2 other hunters in the same area, and those guys I bumped into on the road, not in the field.


Truth. I'm simply pointing out that the option to hunt OTC every year is essentially guaranteed for anyone willing to pick up a bow (or crossbow if needed). 

I wouldn't be sad to see the multi season tag go away in it's current iteration. I'll take advantage of it while I can, but I think they need to evaluate it's current implementation. 

Here's a thought to kick the hornets nest. Full Random Draw with no waiting period for a subset of any bull permits that are multi season. The rest are Any Weapon or Muzzleloader season only sold OTC in the current model. While were at it, separate out the non residents from the permit pool and have those go on sale a different day.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Can you imagine what would happen to the quality of elk hunting if the entire state (except LE units) went to unlimited any bull tags?? Good gosh, the hunting would go to shiz in less than 5 years!! Maybe that was the biologist’s hopes though so they could come in a “fix” the problem after the fact.

The general hunts are difficult enough already… but that’s Ok, it’s hunting and I’m fine with it. On the other hand, mountain ranges devoid of elk because they’ve all been shot to hell by the masses is not something that I want to see. For example, What happened when they opened the north end of the Oak Creeks years ago? Yep…shot to hades and just one of many examples that elk can and are eradicated when substandard management plans are proposed. We don’t need that on a statewide scale thank you!


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I wonder sometimes if people think elk can/should be managed the same way they manage whitetails back east… 🙄


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

MWScott72 said:


> I wonder sometimes if people think elk can/should be managed the same way they manage whitetails back east… 🙄


How do they manage whitetails back east? I've lived in the west my entire life (outside of mandated travel by uncle sam). So I honestly haven't a clue.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/bg/elk_plan.pdf



IV. USE AND DEMAND Elk have become one of the most sought after big game animals in Utah. Geist (1998) in Deer of the World says the following of red deer, the elk of the old world: “It adorns coats of arms, crests and monuments and is the deer of legends, poetry, and songs. Castles were built in its honor and to display its antlers, and throughout history its hunting and management generated passions that transcended life, death, and reason…” Sportsmen are no less passionate about elk and elk hunting in Utah today. Hunter demand and interest for limited entry permits has always been high (Table 3). In 2014, a total of 53,334 hunters applied for 2,868 limited entry permits, resulting in 1:16.1 draw odds for residents a and 1:43.4 for nonresidents. Draw odds have been relatively stable over the past 8 years when comparing total hunters with permits available; however, some hunts have more favorable draw odds than others. For instance, nearly 60% of all limited entry elk hunters apply for the early season rifle hunt, resulting in added point creep for those hunts. Also, units managed for older age class bulls are more difficult to draw compared to lower age class units. In addition to limited entry permits, Utah sold 40,807 general season elk permits for spike and any bull hunts in 2014. Although the number of general season elk permits has remained relatively constant over the past five years, the permits have been selling out earlier each year, indicating the demand for general season elk hunting in Utah.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Before I say this, I want to be clear I don’t in any way want to take away ANY opportunity we have now with utahs general elk hunts, but there are a few things they could change to better disperse hunting opportunities

-get rid of them 3 season spike tags and put them in a draw, like they do with a dedicated deer tag. Same concept, allow 2 kills in a 3 year period

-manage the spike unit 3 season draw tags like they do for deer. Apply for a single unit that has a quota of 500 or so. If you want to hunt 3 seasons, you gotta draw, otherwise you have to pick your season when you buy a tag OTC

-if you draw a 3 season spike tag, cows won’t be legal during the archery hunt. Spike bulls only. Cow or spike is only legal if you buy an unlimited quota OTC archery tags

-no PP will apply or be banked for the spike draw. All random. 1 year waiting period before you can apply again

all that would apply for any bull tags as well


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Lone_Hunter said:


> How do they manage whitetails back east? I've lived in the west my entire life (outside of mandated travel by uncle sam). So I honestly haven't a clue.


Buy a tag and go hunt pretty much. In Louisiana you get 6 deer for $30. Kentucky get 1 buck and 2 doe I think for your license and initial tag. Can buy extra doe tags. Can’t remember how many deer in Maryland on a standard license. But I’m about to find out since that’s where I’ll be hunting again this year. I know the public land I hunt there I can get 3. One buck and 2 does. Most states don’t have draws and crap like that. Just buy a license and tag and go hunt. 


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Lone Hunter- I am from OK and you can shoot 2 bucks, 4 does, and a "bonus" doe over the course of a season for your total bag limit. The reason these states can do that (as Brettski also illustrates in his post) is that whitetails are a whole different animal when compared to elk (or mule deer for that matter). Lots of good forage, so they are more productive, LOTS of private land, so they have relative sanctuary away from the masses (there are still deer on the small chunks of public, but the hunting is generally much tougher), and whitetails will tolerate people in close proximity - even living in suburbs when there is adequate cover and feed...which again is abundant. They don't migrate and often live their entire lives within a couple square miles.

Yes, they are hunted hard, but there are more of them as noted above and they can handle it. Less than 50% of Utah is usable land (someone correct if I'm wrong) and if we were to open up the entire state to any bull, it wouldn't take long to knock our 70K animals down to 30K, and the majority of the rest would figure out real quick that the large ranches and CWMUs in the state are their best bet for survival. The hunting for your average hunter would go to crap in short order.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Brettski7 said:


> Buy a tag and go hunt pretty much. In Louisiana you get 6 deer for $30. Kentucky get 1 buck and 2 doe I think for your license and initial tag. Can buy extra doe tags. Can’t remember how many deer in Maryland on a standard license. But I’m about to find out since that’s where I’ll be hunting again this year. I know the public land I hunt there I can get 3. One buck and 2 does. Most states don’t have draws and crap like that. Just buy a license and tag and go hunt.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is just supply and demand. 

If a mule deer or a elk was like a whitetail deer and adapted to farm lands then perhaps there would be a over population here in the west. But they haven't so western states need to work with what they have.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Critter said:


> It is just supply and demand.
> 
> If a mule deer or a elk was like a whitetail deer and adapted to farm lands then perhaps there would be a over population here in the west. But they haven't so western states need to work with what they have.


Oh yea I understand that. Wasn’t disputing that. Just answering the question asked. 


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

So……start importing Whitetails in?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MrShane said:


> So……start importing Whitetails in?


No need. They are already here.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

MrShane said:


> So……start importing Whitetails in?


Then people will be griping about landowners not letting hunters onto their land unless they pay a trespass fee.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I know there are a few, but should we promote their expansion through transplants?
And while I will always respect a Mule Deer way more than a Whitetail, it is the yearly family group deer hunting opportunity I am after.
If you are a hunter I liken it to the Mourning vs. Eurasian Dove issue Utah is facing right now:
The Eurasians have really taken over in my traditional Dove haunts but I am having a fantastic time hunting them.
Here is a similar comparison for you fisherman:
Strawberry Reservoir used to kick out limit after limit of 3-5 lb. Rainbows without even trying, and this was every fishing day.
Those 3-5lb. easy limits are gone, replaced with easy limit after limit of 2-4lb. Salmon.
Do I miss those easy, big Bows? Heck yes!
Am I going to poo-poo easy limits of big Kokes?
Heck no, I’m going to enjoy the crap outta’ them!!
Just like I would hunting Whitetails if our Mule Deer can’t be recovered.
It will be the opportunity of the future.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

If mule deer went the way of the Dodo, then yes, promote whitetails, but until then, I say keep them out (as much as possible).


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Mule deer are uniquely western. They need all the help we can give them I think.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Wyoming is as traditional as Mule Deer hunting has ever been, look at those folks up there take advantage of an opportunity.
I’m not advocating for it yet, I just wanted to open up a dialogue on the subject to see what you all thought about it?
I will start a new thread so as to not steal from this one.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Make everything a draw. You don't draw, you don't hunt. PERIOD!! But....You get a free fishing license for the year. Just have to find some water that has fish. That's about to become harder than getting a tag.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

taxidermist said:


> Make everything a draw. You don't draw, you don't hunt. PERIOD!! But....You get a free fishing license for the year. Just have to find some water that has fish. That's about to become harder than getting a tag.


I say make everything OTC except for lifetime lol. When they sale out they sale out. 


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Brettski7 said:


> I say make everything OTC except for lifetime lol. When they sale out they sale out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They would have to change it from OTC to OTI (Over the Internet) Either way, it all works out I guess. It's impossible to please everyone out there, doesn't matter how it's done. Is the system perfect? NOPE, and it never will be. Just have to play the game by the rules given us.


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