# Anybull Tags



## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Anyone manage to get one this morning? I feel like some fluke let me buy the first tag that went on sale...I ain't complaining!


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## trdt44 (Dec 28, 2009)

I was also one of the 1st to purchase. It took me a few second longer as I got my fathers also.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

What time did you guys log in?


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Basically, 1 second after 8 am I got in.


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## legacy (Sep 30, 2007)

Says I've been 5th in queue for 45 minutes. Page won't move.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I logged in at 7:50 and am almost 4000 in line.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

wow. I logged in right at 8:00 and was 5,956 in the queue. After 24 minutes I'm 5446th. So excited.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I'm 9,300 in line right now. With my kid having the youth any bull tag and some out of state hunts I am hesitant but heck for $50 donation I may as well get one just in case


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## trdt44 (Dec 28, 2009)

I was actually logged in a few minutes before 8am. I got in the queue before 7am.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

If you navigate from the page, I believe it does stop the queue on you. So be careful there.


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## flyfisher20 (Aug 5, 2011)

Got in at 8:01 and there there about 17,220 tags left. Got a multi season tag and extended my combination license out another 5 years. I admittedly played the multiple browsers game starting at 7. I got in once around 7:30 but obviously the tags weren't available yet so my session timed out while I was trying to wait. Overall a much better experience than what happened last year, at least for me. Good luck to all!


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## PHall (Oct 12, 2013)

I've been stuck in queue at the same position for 20 minutes now. Got in queue ~740.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I made it to 8900 in line after half hour--still waiting. Who wants to play a game on when they sell out--Last year was 8 hours but this year we have a couple extra thousand tags. I am guessing this year will be sold out at 3:30PM. We could play price is right style--closest without going over!


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I logged in at 720am and was 1090 in line and just completed my purchase 5 minutes ago. Once I got on the page the fun began. I got kicked back to my login page twice trying to add the tag to my cart and then it sat on the processing payment for a few minutes before I finally got my confirmation and email. I’m glad that stressful time is over for another year. 


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## PHall (Oct 12, 2013)

my friend who got on after me officially passed me in line, I'm about ready to walk over to a license agent from my office.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I started out at 2,600 at 7:40. Now it's 9:30 and I'm at 500. I wished I would have just went to a store if I could have done it over again.


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## Pete89 (Jan 31, 2018)

Been frozen at 1290th for an hour!


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

Well, that was weird. Jumped from 4300ish to 2134.


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## Muleyboy22 (Aug 25, 2016)

Anyone else stuck in the queue and been able to get in? I am at 871 and been stuck for 30+ minutes 

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## Muleyboy22 (Aug 25, 2016)

Finally got a hold of DWR and they said people frozen in queue need to jump back into the queue again.

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## Pete89 (Jan 31, 2018)

I’m finally moving again after being stuck for over an hour. 


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## PHall (Oct 12, 2013)

Great, I did that and am now at 21k, FYI Gallensons is listed as a license agent but, turns out, they aren't.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

How do you jump back in without losing your spot? I'm stuck at 48th and scared to do anything.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

Muleyboy22 said:


> Finally got a hold of DWR and they said people frozen in queue need to jump back into the queue again.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


More garbage from DWR. You would think they could figure this out.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm stuck at 265. It's been about 15 minutes.


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## american_jackal (Mar 1, 2017)

Logged in at 7:20. Got to the page at 8:40. I was kicked back to the log in screen twice. Patience prevailed, and I got a tag.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I got my tag--not sure I will use it but better have it than not I guess.

As of 9:55 there were 12,747 Res Bull Elk permits available for those wondering.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I was stuck at 8,300 in line for like 40 minutes then it bumped me to 30th in line and away I went--slow but it worked!


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I went to a store around 8:30 and the UDWR system crashed and kicked us off more times than I can remember. The poor cashier was ready to quit her job. There were 10+ people waiting behind me and more walking in as I walked out. Took over an hour to get it done. I hope it went faster after that for the rest.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

You would think they'd design the system to handle the expected load of several thousand people going through at once.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

jewbacca said:


> How do you jump back in without losing your spot? I'm stuck at 48th and scared to do anything.


Use another computer


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

I just called DWR and they told me to stay put and be patient.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

It seems to be about 35 sold per minute based on what I've been seeing. If it doesn't speed up...they might last till 4 pm.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

bowgy said:


> Use another computer


But that resets your spot, yeah? Or do you mean copy/paste the link to a different computer? I notice it has a token ID in the url.

I have a second computer going and am around 500th there. But it's also frozen and restarted during this process.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I logged on around 7:30am and was number 2500ish in line. Our computer is still in queue- it has been stuck on 501 for over half an hour. I'm leaving it in queue to see how long it takes to get in- if it even does get in.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Let us know if it gets going again for you, Packout. I did the same on 2 computers. I'm currently at 48th on one and 528th on the other, both have been stuck for >30 min.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

jewbacca said:


> But that resets your spot, yeah? Or do you mean copy/paste the link to a different computer? I notice it has a token ID in the url.
> 
> I have a second computer going and am around 500th there. But it's also frozen and restarted during this process.


Yeah, just keep the one going that you are on and start a new session, there are multiple people on multiple computers so when one tag is purchased the que may jump several points due to dropping off of several computers.

Last year I had my pc, my lap top and my phone all running. When it went through on one and was able to purchase I closed the other two sessions.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Deja vu all over again, same as last year if anyone is interested in looking at the same kind of post. 









Elk Permits Online Only


How many folks are going to be taken by surprise when they go down to the local DOW office and find that the permits are online only starting 7/16???? https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/964-remaining-deer-elk-hunt-permits-to-only-be-sold-online-this-year-beginning-july-16.html




www.utahwildlife.net


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

They really need to get this figured out....


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

american_jackal said:


> Logged in at 7:20. Got to the page at 8:40. I was kicked back to the log in screen twice. Patience prevailed, and I got a tag.


Lol I logged in at 720 too and that is exactly what happened to me!!


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Changing my guess to sold out by 2 pm at the latest.


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## twall13 (Aug 2, 2015)

This is such a joke, I finally went to Walmart with it pulled up on my phone as I waited. Walmart was definitely faster and I got my tag but their system was having problems as well and moving slowly. While in line I talked to a few others who started before 8 a.m. online and somehow I'd jumped past them in the quie online. I went from 24,000 something down to about 1,400 in one jump and was moving up about 3-4 spots per minute from there. Point of sale purchase was definitely a more sure thing this year. Next year or the year after at the latest and they'll move it to a draw like general deer. This process can't continue.

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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Logged in at 7:40 (server was down prior to that), 43xx in the queue. Currently at 492 as of this post.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

One browser has started moving now. Still stuck at 48th on one, but down to 400th on the other. Wild.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

If it was up to the DWR these any bull rifle tags would be unlimited and you could share the mountain with every Tom, Dick, and Harry in the state!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Frozen at 331.

Been on since 7:48. Getting passed by people now.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Messaged them on Instagram, this was the reply.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

So lovely to wait for nearly two hours to have it freeze up. Unbelievably inept performance, and yet I'm not surprised. Back to the 5000s on my phone.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

PHall said:


> my friend who got on after me officially passed me in line, I'm about ready to walk over to a license agent from my office.


I got on at 7:50 was number 4800. Got down to 3400 and it seemed to get stuck there till 10:30.
I got on my phone right at 8:00. Was number 7800+. It got down to 3500+.
Sooooo I got pissed and drove the 7 blocks to Sportsman's Warehouse at 10:40 and bought one with no line to wait in. Took them a few minutes to get it to load, but it worked. Was home by 11:15.

My phone finally updated and had me 779 just as she finished printing mine. Then was still on that number when I got home.

My I pad here at home is still showing me at
# 3490 at 11:25. That's the one I got on before 8.

I never saw anywhere that any dealer could sell them this year till I went into the system this am.
Did I miss something ??

At least I got one this year !!


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Awesome. Still stuck at 48th on one browser. Other has now stalled at 21. I have no faith in getting this done.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Still at 331. So I waited almost 4 hours to not get a tag. What a joke.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Dang- sorry to hear of all the problems. Mine is still stuck on 501, countdown clock still running and the header says "Hang on tight! You are almost there." huh...... 
I opened one on my phone an hour and a half ago and it started at 9900ish and got down to 5428 and hasn't moved in an hour. So I hit the refresh button and it just went back to 5428. As suggested above, I closed the browser and reopened the page, then waited while came up and it is now at 5428. hahaha
I was going to try to get a tag for my daughter, but that looks like a long shot. I'll just mentor her.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

I got to 25 and got stuck, drove to Cal Ranch and walked out in 5 minutes. If you can sneak away to get one, do it now!


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Got on at 7:55 and was 5,366 in line. Got 3 tags and was done at 11:05
Still can't believe they didn't move it to a draw this year. It's gonna have to happen.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm not trying to get in for a tag, but reading all the issues that mirror last years results, are folks tired of the chit show and ready to go to draw now?


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Packout,
Youth tags are unlimited.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Finally got through. Browser at 48 never moved, so I'm glad I had the second computer open.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

As a backup, I called my local Big 5 and they had no wait. I was getting ready to head over when the second computer started counting down again.


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## Muleyboy22 (Aug 25, 2016)

Finally went and bought tags at a store. Down to 8k tags. Such BS to have computer system keep crashing!

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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Finally checkout out with a Multiseason, 69xx remaining as of this post.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Got back on at 11:45 and got 2 more tags by 12:10
Moving a lot quicker now.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Craziness. I logged on at 720ish and was 900 in line and got in to buy around 8am I think. But, it kept crashing and crashing. I kept having to go through the log in process trying to buy mine and my kids on the same login session. I finally decided to just log in on one of my kid's account to purchase his first, since he's.ore excited, and figured if I couldn't get mine I'd just do archery. 

I was somehow able to log in 3 separate times and make a single purchase in each (myself and two kids) without any wait! After all the crashing and waiting struggle from 7:20-9:30. I think I might just go to sportsman's next year.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Thank God I archery hunt elk now. This sounds asinine.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

Two different sessions. Both got stuck. Went to Walmart and bought my tag. But, to add insult to injury the DWR system did not show that I have a Combo License. I buy it every year in January before I enter the draws. So, I am now the proud owner of two combination licenses. Can't the DWR outsource these tags to an entity like SmithTix that can handle volume sales? I'd be willing to pay the service fee to do that rather than an entire unproductive day.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

It initially said all sales are online, and some stores are saying that while others are selling. Father called Sportsmans this morning and the lady sounded pissed and said no... but then I know people who walked in and bought one.

My dad's queue was 800 ahead of me at 7:50. I passed him by 1500 then froze. An hour later he checked out. Fortunately he snagged mine as well - my "331" position is still frozen there lol.

Total Queue time: 4.5hrs.


Absolute joke of a process, again.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Just got in after almost 5 hours of waiting just to see how long it would take, 4800 left at this point.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

BradN said:


> Two different sessions. Both got stuck. Went to Walmart and bought my tag. But, to add insult to injury the DWR system did not show that I have a Combo License. I buy it every year in January before I enter the draws. So, I am now the proud owner of two combination licenses. Can't the DWR outsource these tags to an entity like SmithTix that can handle volume sales? I'd be willing to pay the service fee to do that rather than an entire unproductive day.


I'd be talking to the DWR about having to purchase a second combination license.

I can't remember but I think that the license sales are outsourced, but I could be wrong. 

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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

I will be doing that for sure. Not today though. For their benefit and mine. : )


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## dawsdeezy (Dec 1, 2020)

I was stuck at 357th in queue online since 7:30 till 11AM, ended up running to Walmart of all places and got the tag after waiting in line for an hour...


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Next year i'll be at my local license agent, in person, at 8 am. If i'm going to lose a half day at work, might as well be able to have time to fish afterword.


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## dawsdeezy (Dec 1, 2020)

Did you get one at a store?


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## DIRTYS6X6 (May 19, 2021)

just got in. as of now there is 2797 left


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I was just messing around and put back in a 1:00. 
I got in just before 2 and could have got one. 
After waiting 2 1/2 hours this morning and being froze out twice. 
I went to SW to get one this am.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Just logged on out of curiosity was 2k left


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Think the spike will be as bad?


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Ray said:


> Think the spike will be as bad?


I want to say no, but the website was even having some issues when the archery tags went on sale.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)




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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Ray said:


> Think the spike will be as bad?


No, the any bull seems to always sells out first. But Ive been wrong before.

I just logged in to see if I’d have to wait. No wait at all, just under 2k left.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Ray said:


> Think the spike will be as bad?


I'll say that it will be just as bad, they will be using the same server and programming to sell the spike tags. It was last year that they had all kinds of problems but you could only get a tag online due to covid. 

If it was me and I wanted a tag I would be at a store that sells tags and at the counter at 8 am or as soon as the store opens.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Rifle hunting is still new and exciting to me, since I was a 50yd and under slug hunter for 34 years. Hopefully the excitement wanes soon so I can save money and go back to shooting my bow a lot more haha


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## wapati (Nov 29, 2007)

Dang, hope everyone is getting their tag, as of 3:30pm there are only 908 tags to pull from.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Got right in. 863 left as of now. I'll take my turn with the frustration when spike tags go on sale.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

373 as of 4:45 pm!


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## TmTmTl (Apr 27, 2019)

Sold out at 547pm!!!!!


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Both the any legal weapon and multiseason?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

You poor bastages.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that I'll buy my OTC any bull tag in a couple of weeks.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I know Spike tags aren’t as bad, but I hope it’s not this much of a cluster **** when I go to buy one next week. I guess worst case scenario I’ll end up with an archery tag vs a 3 season.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

You suppose one factor that sells these out in one day vs. the weeks it used to take is the increasing difficulty in drawing other permits?

I imagine that and the popularity that western hunting has gained due to so many YouTube hunters are some of the main factors.

I'd be curious to see the ratio of resident vs. non for these tags.

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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> You suppose one factor that sells these out in one day vs. the weeks it used to take is the increasing difficulty in drawing other permits?
> 
> I imagine that and the popularity that western hunting has gained due to so many YouTube hunters are some of the main factors.
> 
> ...


Residents make up the vast majority. Utah isn’t the place to come spend your money for over the counter bull tags, that’s next door in Colorado.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

KineKilla said:


> You suppose one factor that sells these out in one day vs. the weeks it used to take is the increasing difficulty in drawing other permits?
> 
> I imagine that and the popularity that western hunting has gained due to so many YouTube hunters are some of the main factors.
> 
> ...


That's one factor for sure. Population increase is another that is intertwined with it.




__





Utah Population 1900-2021


Chart and table of population level and growth rate for the state of Utah from 1900 to 2021.




www.macrotrends.net


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Fyi, my in store printed tag is on the better paper, similar to last year's. The deer tag stiff toilet paper was hopefully a short lived venture. This paper was delivered recently and they also had the crappy paper last month.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

APD said:


> Fyi, my in store printed tag is on the better paper, similar to last year's. The deer tag stiff toilet paper was hopefully a short lived venture. This paper was delivered recently and they also had the crappy paper last month.


I would guess that the stores have a stockpile of the old paper to print tags and licenses out on. But come next year I would imagine that they all will be printing them out on the new toilet paper.

At least Utah hasn't done what Arizona did a few years ago. You need to pack your tag around in a binder with all the advertising that is on it.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

KineKilla said:


> I imagine that and the popularity that western hunting has gained due to so many YouTube hunters are some of the main factors.





APD said:


> That's one factor for sure. Population increase is another that is intertwined with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In terms of percentages, Utah is the fastest growing state in the nation. In terms of raw numbers, it's Texas. Two or three years ago, I don't think it was this bad on trying to get a tag. It's not just hunters on youtube, I think a lot of it has to do with the IT industry moving into Utah. Silicon slopes. When our local powers that be successfully attracted them here, they didn't create jobs, they imported them from other states from existing corporations and businesses. Word spreads fast. First from within management, then to employees, employees tell their family and friend. Give that a few years of fermentation, and next thing we know we have a metric buttload of Oregan, Washington, and California tags on I-15. All three states have tech hubs if i'm not mistaken.

As an aside, I was checking trail cams in panguitch this last sunday. Driving home on monday at O:dark 30, I literally passed a truck on I-15 with california tags, dragging a U Haul cargo trailer behind him. Not hard to see he's moving here. I wonder just how many similar trucks are on the interstate every day.

edit:
Heh, what did I just say?








What keeps tech workers in Utah? Outdoor activities outrank family, new study shows


Whether they're natives of the state or transplants, Utah tech workers say the prime motivator for living in the Beehive State is its one-of-a-kind outdoor assets.




www.ksl.com





Anyway, hopefully spike tags aren't this bad.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I got on yesterday in the afternoon just to see, logged right in and there was no issue, still plenty of tags available. I did not buy one. I was only curious. Sounds like the system sucks for those that have to be first, but if you’re okay just getting a tag around lunch time or later, your issues end.


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Lone_Hunter said:


> It's not just hunters on youtube, I think a lot of it has to do with the IT industry moving into Utah. Silicon slopes. When our local powers that be successfully attracted them here, they didn't create jobs, they imported them from other states from existing corporations and businesses.


I can almost guarantee it's not the IT nerds buying tags, and anyone that has friends, family, or coworkers in that sector can probably attest to that. All the outreach that the hunting community has done in an attempt to grow the sport, mostly for good reasons, is likely paying off. A lot more people are staying home to hunt, tag prices going up everywhere; hard to say but I'd bet it's multiple factors. Population growth may play a big part, but not because of IT jobs or the jobs that WERE created to support that industry and its development. 



Vanilla said:


> I got on yesterday in the afternoon just to see, logged right in and there was no issue, still plenty of tags available. I did not buy one. I was only curious. Sounds like the system sucks for those that have to be first, but if you’re okay just getting a tag around lunch time or later, your issues end.


There's a lot of truth to that, my plan for next year will definitely be different. Not waiting around, just won't screw with the online system if I can go down the street and pick one up.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

CAExpat said:


> I can almost guarantee it's not the IT nerds buying tags, and anyone that has friends, family, or coworkers in that sector can probably attest to that.


IT nerd here, can confirm. In the last 20 years I’ve known 4 coworkers that hunt. Yes, only 4 in 7 different companies. Most spend their time gaming, heck they wouldn’t even put a hunting game on their X-Box. Those that do enjoy the outdoors, it’s typically hiking, mountain biking or the occasional skier.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

CAExpat said:


> I can almost guarantee it's not the IT nerds buying tags, and anyone that has friends, family, or coworkers in that sector can probably attest to that. All the outreach that the hunting community has done in an attempt to grow the sport, mostly for good reasons, is likely paying off. A lot more people are staying home to hunt, tag prices going up everywhere; hard to say but I'd bet it's multiple factors. Population growth may play a big part, but not because of IT jobs or the jobs that WERE created to support that industry and its development.


What I'm saying is IT is playing a large part in why we are having such a large population growth. The IT industry is what let the secret about Utah out. It's why people are moving here. As population increases, percentages in everything increase. From crime, to number of people buying tags. While some of the code monkeys might not be out hunting, their family members might be. Aside from that, word of mouth travels far. IT cubicle dweller tells his friend, who tells a friend, etc.

It's only going to get worse. Overcrowding, cost of living increases, unaffordable housing, more crime, its all going to increase, and I put the root cause of it, right on IT's door step. Its already happened elsewhere in the country. 
This can't be good, as it will effect local politics:








Salt Lake Chamber launches Wasatch Innovation Network to promote tech industry in Utah


Salt Lake Chamber launched the Wasatch Innovation Network on Tuesday, a statewide initiative to promote the innovation tech industry in Utah.




www.ksl.com





This mad dash for tags is only going to get worse as well. 

Hunter outreach programs? Utah was always unique, I don't think there was ever had a decline in hunting in Utah while other states had a decline. Big game hunting has been sewn into the cultural fabric of Utah for awhile. Unfortunately, as the population increases, that way of life is in danger.


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Lone_Hunter said:


> What I'm saying is IT is playing a large part in why we are having such a large population growth. The IT industry is what let the secret about Utah out. It's why people are moving here. As population increases, percentages in everything increase. From crime, to number of people buying tags. While some of the code monkeys might not be out hunting, their family members might be. Aside from that, word of mouth travels far. IT cubicle dweller tells his friend, who tells a friend, etc.
> 
> It's only going to get worse. Overcrowding, cost of living increases, unaffordable housing, more crime, its all going to increase, and I put the root cause of it, right on IT's door step. Its already happened elsewhere in the country.
> This can't be good, as it will effect local politics:
> ...


I agree with you wholeheartedly, however you don't have to have a "decline" to still push for added growth. I've only been in the state 7 years, but don't ever forget that not all change is progress. I'm actively watching UT go the same way CA did through the 90's and into the 2000's; booming population growth with no commensurate infrasturcture upgrades to support, no long-term financial planning (everything viewed in short run), huge expanses of housing developments blah blah I could go on. I've got about 10 years left here and then moving on. I love the outdoors, couldn't affford to live in CA, I've fallen in love with UT but she too will have changed too much. Everything goes in cycles, hopefully it starts moving back in the other direction, doubt it. Sorry for the deviation from topic.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Hunter outreach programs? Utah was always unique, I don't think there was ever had a decline in hunting in Utah while other states had a decline. Big game hunting has been sewn into the cultural fabric of Utah for awhile. Unfortunately, as the population increases, that way of life is in danger.


The reduction from 250,000 deer tags to less than 80,000 was a massive reduction in hunters. The minuscule increase in elk tags since has done nothing to help the demand of people wanting to hunt.
Elk hunting became the replacement for a lot of people. And a lot more just gave it up.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

CAExpat said:


> I agree with you wholeheartedly, however you don't have to have a "decline" to still push for added growth. I've only been in the state 7 years, but don't ever forget that not all change is progress. I'm actively watching UT go the same way CA did through the 90's and into the 2000's; booming population growth with no commensurate infrasturcture upgrades to support, no long-term financial planning (everything viewed in short run), huge expanses of housing developments blah blah I could go on. I've got about 10 years left here and then moving on. I love the outdoors, couldn't affford to live in CA, I've fallen in love with UT but she too will have changed too much. Everything goes in cycles, hopefully it starts moving back in the other direction, doubt it. Sorry for the deviation from topic.


Not to stroke each others ego's but I agree. I've never made it any secret that I am not a native son of Utah. I moved here 11 years ago from a state that I am ashamed to admit I ever came from. Met my wife while she was in school, and ended up marrying into a large LDS family. So I've had an inside view of Utah. Like a typical GenX'er, I integrated, and like a good American, I assimilated. So I think I've a good perspective on the comparisions. Utah has been good to me, so I in turn have become very protective of Utah. Unfortunately, the writing is on the wall.

This relates I think, only in terms of why the demand for tags. I posit increased population, which compels me to explain part of the reason for that increased population. I "lived" in a "sensor deprivation chamber" for 14 years, so I'm not completely talking out of my ass. But the cat's out of the bag now, andt there's not much else to be done with that except get out of dodge. If it were not ties that bind , I'd have left 3 years ago.

Middlefork has a good point with the deer tags, but theres still no getting around the increased population. It's in your face every time you drive on I-15, or sit in California style gridlock traffic. 

More people, means more of everything.


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Same here, the wife's family is all here and our kids are too little to drag around the country. I traveled heavily while in the military and like a gypsy I desperately miss being on the road. I love UT and all she has to offer not only my family but myself too. The day will come when we can leave, but where do you go? It seems the same type that shut down my hometown and drove me out of CA have settled everywhere else this side of the divide as well. I lived in TN for a while, loved the Carolinas and the gulf coast too. I’m a western boy though, I need open 4x4 trails, public lands big country. There's just no replacement for COLD mountain mornings, watching a huge muley step out of some brush, or a bull screaming in your face at full draw. Can’t do that in too many places anymore. Won’t be able to do that in UT much longer either, the drive-by conservationists and dog walkers will quickly limit hunting and motored recreational opportunities etc. The trash left behind in the mountains is building a case too, we ALL have a LOT of work to do if you want to try to keep things the way they were. I hope native Utahns realize what they have and what they stand to lose. But again, I digress.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Last year when this fiasco happened I recall several forum members saying that this was a one time thing, that it was because of covid. There were some hearty discussions I recall! I was a proponent of putting these elk tags in a draw but most folks scoffed at this because this fire sale was a one time thing--well it wasn't. Wonder if folks are going to change their mind or are we cool with sitting in front of a computer for 4 hours beating our heads against a keyboard. Blue collar guys are gonna have to take a day off work just to secure their elk tag just so the state can say that we have an OTC rifle big game hunt. But really it's more of a black Friday sale than OTC. So the state has three options and none of them are ideal so pick your poison:

1. Continue with the fire sale which is only going to get worse with folks waiting in lines or at their computers. If the DWR has a true high speed no wait check out system these tags would be gone within 3 hours--it's only gonna get worse

2. Go unlimited any bull elk tags. The DWR already wants this option. I don't think hunters do--what a cluster that would be but hey, at least they can say they offer an OTC rifle elk hunt plus imagine all that revenue for them!

3. Take it to a draw with preference points. Heck they could combine it with general deer and use the same points since we have half of California moving in and everyone wants to hunt

If I was king of the world I would either take it to a draw or make it unlimited tags but have it be a HAMS hunt


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Airborne said:


> If I was king of the world I would either take it to a draw or make it unlimited tags but have it be a HAMS hunt


Now THAT I like! Cap Any Weapon tags at 10k, have archery and HAMS tags unlimited but split seasons as they currently are. Rifle hunt gets a 7-day season, HAMS is from the 2nd week of October through the end of the Calendar year or until reported management numbers are met, similar to bear hunts etc. That's certainly a conversation starter.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Airborne said:


> 1. Continue with the fire sale which is only going to get worse with folks waiting in lines or at their computers. If the DWR has a true high speed no wait check out system these tags would be gone within 3 hours--it's only gonna get worse
> 
> 2. Go unlimited any bull elk tags. The DWR already wants this option. I don't think hunters do--what a cluster that would be but hey, at least they can say they offer an OTC rifle elk hunt plus imagine all that revenue for them!
> 
> ...


I like your thinking. I'm in favor of #3 and the HAMS hunt minus muzzleloader. As much as I want to hunt rifle year-in/year-out, there's already so many hunters to compete with that letting it go unlimited seems inadvisable. 

#1 & #2 are crappy options. If demand is so high the tags sell out in a few hours, it's time for a draw. Hurts me to say. But I don't see a good alternative at this point. 

In any case, I see myself and many other hunters going to archery in the near future. Perhaps in 10-15 years archery will have to go the draw route as well.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I think it's just a matter of time until all hunting opportunities are done through a draw system.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)




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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

CAExpat said:


> Same here, the wife's family is all here and our kids are too little to drag around the country. I traveled heavily while in the military and like a gypsy I desperately miss being on the road. I love UT and all she has to offer not only my family but myself too. The day will come when we can leave, but where do you go? It seems the same type that shut down my hometown and drove me out of CA have settled everywhere else this side of the divide as well. I lived in TN for a while, loved the Carolinas and the gulf coast too. I’m a western boy though, I need open 4x4 trails, public lands big country. There's just no replacement for COLD mountain mornings, watching a huge muley step out of some brush, or a bull screaming in your face at full draw. Can’t do that in too many places anymore. Won’t be able to do that in UT much longer either, the drive-by conservationists and dog walkers will quickly limit hunting and motored recreational opportunities etc. The trash left behind in the mountains is building a case too, we ALL have a LOT of work to do if you want to try to keep things the way they were. I hope native Utahns realize what they have and what they stand to lose. But again, I digress.


We have A LOT in common. Used to be an engineer in the chair force. Red horse and prime beef. Look it up if your bored. In the Horse i traveled A LOT. 30 days here, 45 days there, 75 over there. Total nomad. Queue up "Wherever I may roam" by Metallica. I want to move to Alaska, but that is a dream becoming more and more unrealistic as time goes on. Honestly, if Utah has changed you to where you could not live without mountains and backcountry (ditto), there really isn't anywhere else to go. Have to make a stand somewhere I guess. With all that's going on, I think there's been a major population shift in the country, so there might not be anywhere to run to anyway. And yeah, The trash in the mountains pisses me off too. So much stupidity over the last year.

Native Utahns better wake the hell up, start making a stand and defend their home, before they find their home was taken right out from under them. I digress as well, but my give a crap, took a crap for the moment. Some things just need to be said.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Airborne said:


> Last year when this fiasco happened I recall several forum members saying that this was a one time thing, that it was because of covid. There were some hearty discussions I recall! I was a proponent of putting these elk tags in a draw but most folks scoffed at this because this fire sale was a one time thing--well it wasn't. Wonder if folks are going to change their mind or are we cool with sitting in front of a computer for 4 hours beating our heads against a keyboard. Blue collar guys are gonna have to take a day off work just to secure their elk tag just so the state can say that we have an OTC rifle big game hunt. But really it's more of a black Friday sale than OTC. So the state has three options and none of them are ideal so pick your poison:
> 
> 1. Continue with the fire sale which is only going to get worse with folks waiting in lines or at their computers. If the DWR has a true high speed no wait check out system these tags would be gone within 3 hours--it's only gonna get worse
> 
> ...


Your right.

Option 1 is unsustainable.

Option 2 is also unsustainable.

Which leaves 3, and it sucks. I suppose an individual strategy would be to alternate years between deer and elk, so your always hunting. If I could run a multiseason tag on both, i could live with that. I really don't want to have to go to a draw though, scouting and hunting has become a lifestyle for me, I'm always in the mountanis for a reason it's always hunting related, and I HATE change. But honestly I don't see any other alternative. Personally I'm willing to entertain any other option besides draw and unlimited, but don't see how.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I LOVE CAexpats proposal. But, I would limit the muzzleloaders to the variety designated by the ATF as antiques or replicas of antiques. No modern strong inline system that makes 200-300 yard shooting a breeze


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Lone_Hunter said:


> The trash in the mountains pisses me off too. So much stupidity over the last year.
> 
> Native Utahns better wake the hell up, start making a stand and defend their home, before they find their home was taken right out from under them.


Native Utahns are part of the problem. When I talk to trespassers in summer or signline violators in winter they are proud native Utahns as well. Making trails wherever they want on NF lands or private property, it just doesn't matter. Humans, from Utah or not, need to recognize what they're going to lose.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

APD said:


> Native Utahns are part of the problem. When I talk to trespassers in summer or signline violators in winter they are proud native Utahns as well. Making trails wherever they want on NF lands or private property, it just doesn't matter. Humans, from Utah or not, need to recognize what they're going to lose.


While I didn't specify, I was thinking more in terms of politics,and home, not tresspassing issues. I have to agree on the OHV trailblazing though. Lot of lazy people out there. If it were up to me, I'd make half of those roads disappear and create more roadless areas.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have always been of the mindset that once a "road" is on a map then it should stay a "road". However the US Forest Service has different ideas on the subject. 

I can understand roads in and out of lumber sales to get the trucks and equipment in and the lumber out but there have been a number of roads that the FS has decommissioned. They claim that they don't have the manpower, equipment, or money to maintain these roads, but they would be fine for a ATV. 

As for a roadless area, you can take out a map of Utah and pinpoint a location while blindfolded and odds are you are going to be within a mile of a road, the High Unitas are a exception to this. This is where it is so interesting when someone says that they hiked back in 5 or more miles to get away from other hunters. Those kind of places just don't exist in Utah.


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## twall13 (Aug 2, 2015)

Critter said:


> As for a roadless area, you can take out a map of Utah and pinpoint a location while blindfolded and odds are you are going to be within a mile of a road, the High Unitas are a exception to this. This is where it is so interesting when someone says that they hiked back in 5 or more miles to get away from other hunters. Those kind of places just don't exist in Utah.


I've always had that same thought. At least in Utah, if you are hiking in that far you've likely crossed a few other roads/trails that would have been a better access point. You can still find some nasty country that will get you away from other hunters but it will hardly ever be that deep. As you mentioned, the Uintas are an exception and I can think of a few other areas that might qualify but for the most part it's hard to find an area that big with no roads. I assume most who boast of that mileage either aren't actually tracking it or are just trying to sound like they did something impressive. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Your right.
> 
> Option 1 is unsustainable.
> 
> ...


I think I'd hunt out of state in years I couldn't get a tag in Utah. It would suck, but I'd rather see a draw on limited tags than increasing tag numbers or going unlimited. You mention sustainability, and that's the key.


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

jewbacca said:


> I think I'd hunt out of state in years I couldn't get a tag in Utah. It would suck, but I'd rather see a draw on limited tags than increasing tag numbers or going unlimited. You mention sustainability, and that's the key.


I hunt Idaho and Colorado as well, no state is perfect. Anymore, I mainly just hunt Idaho to hear them whine about "All the Utah tags at the trailhead" and "Non-residents are killing all the animals". Same stuff, different diaper.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I’m trying to identify what the problem was here? I jumped on after 3pm, logged straight on without any delay, and there was still more than 1,110 permits remaining to purchase.

I guess if you’re one that insists on being first, you had a bigger giant cluster. If you’re one who just wants a tag, and waited a bit, your blood pressure probably stayed much lower and you’ll still be elk hunting a general unit this year.


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> I’m trying to identify what the problem was here? I jumped on after 3pm, logged straight on without any delay, and there was still more than 1,110 permits remaining to purchase.
> 
> I guess if you’re one that insists on being first, you had a bigger giant cluster. If you’re one who just wants a tag, and waited a bit, your blood pressure probably stayed much lower and you’ll still be elk hunting a general unit this year.


Last year you wouldn't have had a tag. Try the same thing again next year, hysteria breeds more hysteria. Your choice, do whatever you want.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

CAExpat said:


> Last year you wouldn't have had a tag. Try the same thing again next year, hysteria breeds more hysteria. Your choice, do whatever you want.


Bingo. It's not about insisting on being first. It's about fear of not getting a tag at all. If they actually ran an efficient website, tags would be gone by noon.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

CAExpat said:


> I hunt Idaho and Colorado as well, no state is perfect. Anymore, I mainly just hunt Idaho to hear them whine about "All the Utah tags at the trailhead" and "Non-residents are killing all the animals". Same stuff, different diaper.


Sadly Idaho has listened to the griping and restricted out of state tags. Fewer and more expensive. I can outfit myself pretty well to hunt in Utah for $1k/year, lol.

But I also have someone there who has put in a TON of work and figured out a secluded honeyhole. Archery with him would be really fun. Maybe even worth the $1000.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Critter said:


> As for a roadless area, you can take out a map of Utah and pinpoint a location while blindfolded and odds are you are going to be within a mile of a road, the High Unitas are a exception to this. This is where it is so interesting when someone says that they hiked back in 5 or more miles to get away from other hunters. Those kind of places just don't exist in Utah.


One thing I've learned, is one can actually hike five miles, honestly think they've hiked five miles from a road, but it will turn out later there was another road they weren't aware of.

A few years ago, this got me a lot. I'd scout an area, and only to find out later, I went in the hard way. Sometimes the best way in to any given area, can be in a completely different map grid umpteen miles in some other direction. If you didn't study the map, and I mean the entire map, you wouldn't know it. I can think of a few ridges where the access road starts in a completely unrelated area.

As for hunting out of state..... too rich for my blood. Hunting Utah is all I can afford, or have time for.


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

jewbacca said:


> Sadly Idaho has listened to the griping and restricted out of state tags. Fewer and more expensive. I can outfit myself pretty well to hunt in Utah for $1k/year, lol.
> 
> But I also have someone there who has put in a TON of work and figured out a secluded honeyhole. Archery with him would be really fun. Maybe even worth the $1000.


Yeah I'm putting the time in right now, but similar things have happened there that are happening here. Capped tags in specific units used to be purchased the day of the hunt, now they sell out in a day...in December. Luckily they still have the DAV tags so I buy a license every year regardless just to put a little money in the pot. I didn't buy a tag this year because of a new baby but I'll be back in there next year, listening to all the whining from supposed hardcore, mountain men hunters 😁


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> I got on yesterday in the afternoon just to see, logged right in and there was no issue, still plenty of tags available. I did not buy one. I was only curious.


it's not about being first, more about not being after last. just because you were "buy curious" and got through in the afternoon doesn't mean it's that way every year. 


Vanilla said:


> I guess if you’re one that insists on being first, you had a bigger giant cluster. If you’re one who just wants a tag, and waited a bit, your blood pressure probably stayed much lower and you’ll still be elk hunting a general unit this year.


hope is not a strategy.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I’m not suggesting the DWR is running an efficient operation here, but all of you that try to log in early on 7 different devices are every bit as much of the problem as the DWR.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> I’m not suggesting the DWR is running an efficient operation here, but all of you that try to log in early on 7 different devices are every bit as much of the problem as the DWR.


Vanilla does have a valid point. If enough people are doing that, all those login requests simultaneously hammering their servers is going make for some deadlocks.


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## CAExpat (Oct 27, 2013)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Vanilla does have a valid point. If enough people are doing that, all those login requests simultaneously hammering their servers is going make for some deadlocks.


I agree with him to an extent, however you saw how well we handled toilet paper in times of _alleged_ scarcity. I'm not going to miss out on elk season because I trusted my fellow man to not freak out. 

I spent some time reading the elk management plan again, i'm now more convinced than ever that general tags should be unlimited. The success rate on these hunts is typically in the teens, which means we're nowhere near killing elk in the number of tags sold. Hypothetically, if the tags are unlimited, how many MORE tags to you think the any-bull hunt sells, another 10k? If 27k tags are sold, and the success rate on those hunts are roughly 15%, we're WELL below the tag alottment. As I (may have) mentioned earlier, with mandatory reporting you can cut off the hunt if the numbers climb too high, which I doubt they ever would. This is already in place in other states. Is it safe to assume that DWR has to account for the fact that if you sold 15000 tags, they could sustain a success rate of 40-50-75%?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I’d be willing to bet they don’t sell 10k more tags if they went unlimited. Just like TP sits on the shelf when there is a perceived unlimited supply, but is gone in seconds if you tell them there is a shortage.

CAExpat’s example is a perfect one. It wasn’t Costco’s fault you all acted like idiots. (The proverbial “you”) Ya’ll are complaining about the wrong problem here.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Vanilla said:


> I’m not suggesting the DWR is running an efficient operation here, but all of you that try to log in early on 7 different devices are every bit as much of the problem as the DWR.


Hmm to some extent, but this is a chicken/egg argument. The glitches from last year bred the multiple logins this year. All I can say is I had 2 devices open. The 1st failed, the 2nd got me through.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Picked up a couple youth OTC archery deer tags this morning. The process was smooth, no queue, got right in. FAR less demand and website traffic than Tuesday, however.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

jewbacca said:


> Hmm to some extent, but this is a chicken/egg argument. *The glitches from last year bred the multiple logins this year.* All I can say is I had 2 devices open. The 1st failed, the 2nd got me through.


I disagree with that premise and do not believe that the facts support that either. Last year was WAY worse than this year by all accounts, and there was no reason other than people are crazy to explain what we all did last year. I was guilty of that same thing, jumping on and finally connecting and seeing I was 67,000th in line, or whatever it was. Then I pulled out another device and tried again, and another...

This year I think less people did that, but some still did. If you want to point the finger, then do it. Just do it equally to those that are to blame, or one loses credibility.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

CAExpat said:


> I agree with him to an extent, however you saw how well we handled toilet paper in times of _alleged_ scarcity. I'm not going to miss out on elk season because I trusted my fellow man to not freak out.
> 
> I spent some time reading the elk management plan again, i'm now more convinced than ever that general tags should be unlimited. The success rate on these hunts is typically in the teens, which means we're nowhere near killing elk in the number of tags sold. Hypothetically, if the tags are unlimited, how many MORE tags to you think the any-bull hunt sells, another 10k? If 27k tags are sold, and the success rate on those hunts are roughly 15%, we're WELL below the tag alottment. As I (may have) mentioned earlier, with mandatory reporting you can cut off the hunt if the numbers climb too high, which I doubt they ever would. This is already in place in other states. Is it safe to assume that DWR has to account for the fact that if you sold 15000 tags, they could sustain a success rate of 40-50-75%?


With the mandatory reporting they also include days afield. Those two metrics if tallied can tell the story a bit better. Maybe some folks don't go at all, others get a day or two in and some setup camp for the long haul. 

A pie chart with areas hunted would be nice as well.

All these little tid bits of info help complete the picture and can lead to more informed changes in the future.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Vanilla said:


> I disagree with that premise and do not believe that the facts support that either. Last year was WAY worse than this year by all accounts, and there was no reason other than people are crazy to explain what we all did last year. I was guilty of that same thing, jumping on and finally connecting and seeing I was 67,000th in line, or whatever it was. Then I pulled out another device and tried again, and another...
> 
> This year I think less people did that, but some still did. If you want to point the finger, then do it. Just do it equally to those that are to blame, or one loses credibility.


You're looking at this with hindsight. To be frank, this statement rubbed me the wrong way:



> I’m trying to identify what the problem was here? I jumped on after 3pm, logged straight on without any delay, and there was still more than 1,110 permits remaining to purchase.
> 
> I guess if you’re one that insists on being first, you had a bigger giant cluster. If you’re one who just wants a tag, and waited a bit, your blood pressure probably stayed much lower and you’ll still be elk hunting a general unit this year.


Last year caught many people off guard. No one expected tags to sell out the same day as it was obviously unprecedented. Even with 2500 more tags, many of us expected a same day sellout. And since this wasn't going to catch anyone off guard, you'd expect them to sell out more quickly, _assuming an efficient purchasing system_. Every hunter I know was planning to be online before 8am to be sure they had a spot in the queue.

The fact the DWR site still performed poorly is the only surprise here. They had a year to prepare. You can point the finger at those of us who have FOMO and logged in on multiple devices, but this shouldn't have been an issue at all. This was easy to foresee and the site should have been up to the task. Sometimes FOMO isn't justified, but the year after a one-day sellout is not one of those cases. If the system had been sufficiently prepared, you should have been out of luck at 3pm.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Hey Niller, so last year wasn't it you and Moose who were saying this was a one time rush because of covid and we should keep OTC because it will go back to normal and this cluster nugget wouldn't repeat itself? I am pretty sure you were in this camp but I don't feel like going through your posts. That position turned out to be dead wrong.

Just so I get this straight for our posterity ( 😆 ) can we sum up your OTC support position with the following reasons:

1. It's not so bad and folks can stand in line if they need to and those that aren't lazy can get a tag if they really want it and it's not even a problem and we are up in the night
2. It could possibly go unlimited because we won't sell more than 20k tags anyways

You could probably better relay your reasoning so please do--I just want to be able to tell ya how wrong you were in the next few years--Hahaha. This is all for fun ya know so don't get offended with me!


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

CAExpat said:


> I agree with him to an extent, however you saw how well we handled toilet paper in times of _alleged_ scarcity. I'm not going to miss out on elk season because I trusted my fellow man to not freak out.


Yeah I agree. Amazingly a line from the movie Men in black said it best. "A person is smart, people are dumb panicky creatures," or something to that effect. So i'm not exactly going to NOT jump into the queue either because I'll be damned if i'm going to miss out on something I wait for all freaking year. 

Now all said, I do wonder if DWR's backend recognizes only unique IP's or just accepts any IP in a C series. I'm guessing the latter and not the former. Theoritically I could have 7 workstations set up in my home office and have them all hammer DWR at the same time. Not that I would, my days of "two boxing" are well behind me, I'm just saying it shouldn't be possible.



> I spent some time reading the elk management plan again, i'm now more convinced than ever that general tags should be unlimited. The success rate on these hunts is typically in the teens, which means we're nowhere near killing elk in the number of tags sold. Hypothetically, if the tags are unlimited, how many MORE tags to you think the any-bull hunt sells, another 10k? If 27k tags are sold, and the success rate on those hunts are roughly 15%, we're WELL below the tag alottment. As I (may have) mentioned earlier, with mandatory reporting you can cut off the hunt if the numbers climb too high, which I doubt they ever would. This is already in place in other states. Is it safe to assume that DWR has to account for the fact that if you sold 15000 tags, they could sustain a success rate of 40-50-75%?


To be honest, I haven't reviewed the management plan. You're FAR more patient then I. I just assume the elk populations can't support it with the increase in state population and subsequent hunter population.

I would totally go along with unlimited tags provided:
a.) The science supports it (my own words make me cringe on this one)
b.) The elk population could still thrive.
c.) Mandantory reporting I think is a good idea. 
d.) Additional hunting regulations that some people may not like. Muzzy is an easy example. Lots of technological improvements that have turned muzzy from a primitive weapon to a second rifle season.

THAT scenario, in my mind, is far better then the luck of the draw. I'm selfish, I want to hunt EVERY year, not every OTHER year. Mid life, every year counts. Ain't getting any younger, and I'm trying to make up for lost time. All those years of my life I wasted away on something that is ultimately comprised of magnetic polarities expressed as 0's and 1's and ceases to function the instant the power goes out.


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## Hill Hunter (Dec 1, 2017)

I wonder if they would sell any more tags if they were unlimited. As it is now, it is buy now or don't buy at all. I am not all that committed to hunting an any bull tag. And there is a good chance I wouldn't buy one later in the year when the season rolled around, there are lots of upland hunts that are more fun. But, I do want to have the option so I jump on and buy one. How many people who buy tags end up hunting?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Airborne said:


> Hey Niller, so last year wasn't it you and Moose who were saying this was a one time rush because of covid and we should keep OTC because it will go back to normal and this cluster nugget wouldn't repeat itself? I am pretty sure you were in this camp but I don't feel like going through your posts. That position turned out to be dead wrong.


I don't ever recall saying the spike in hunting desire was a one-time covid caused thing. I don't believe I have ever had that opinion, so I'd be surprised if I said that. I think the spike we are seeing in hunting applications has to do with many things, but I do not believe covid was one of them. I did say that we don't have to rush to put the general tags into a draw system just because the process for OTC was a cluster one year. Fix the system and leave it OTC is how I felt then, and how I feel now. It is going to take 5 points to hunt a freaking cow elk here soon. You want that for general season tags now too? 



Airborne said:


> Just so I get this straight for our posterity ( 😆 ) can we sum up your OTC support position with the following reasons:
> 
> 1. It's not so bad and folks can stand in line if they need to and those that aren't lazy can get a tag if they really want it and it's not even a problem and we are up in the night
> 2. It could possibly go unlimited because we won't sell more than 20k tags anyways


1. I think the DWR's online systems can be improved in a huge way. Quite frankly, their entire online world sucks. It is one of many things in the IT world (including the draw system) that I think can be improved. But the IT problems shouldn't dictate general season being turned into another stupid draw system. 
2. I really don't feel strongly about that one, it's more of a hunch. But I am guessing if they were unlimited, you would see an increase, but probably not a substantial increase. Especially over time. You may see a year or two spike up, and then when people realize how hard it is to actually kill animals on these hunts, they will give up and move on. Or it could spell the doom and end of elk herds in the state of Utah. 



Airborne said:


> You could probably better relay your reasoning so please do--I just want to be able to tell ya how wrong you were in the next few years--Hahaha. This is all for fun ya know so don't get offended with me!


Here is the reality: The good general season elk hunters that regularly kill an animal over the years all have tags in their pockets. I'm willing to bet that all of the people on here whining about how hard it was to get a tag actually all got a tag. Did anyone that jumped into the online queue at any point in the morning actually end up not getting a tag? Please, speak up if you are that person. I'm guessing that person does not exist, based upon the fact that I logged in after 3 pm without issue and there were still more than 1,100 permits available. So I ask again, if 7 hours after they go on sale there are still over 1,000 permits available for anyone to grab one, what is the problem you're trying to solve with a draw system? Yes, the IT process could be improved, but the first thing I'd do is figure out a restriction that only allows a person to be logged in on one device. I wonder how the system would look if people were not allowed to log in 13 times simultaneously for one permit? 



jewbacca said:


> You're looking at this with hindsight. To be frank, this statement rubbed me the wrong way:


I'm sorry? This whole thread rubs me the wrong way. Watching a bunch of guys that *GOT TAGS* whine about how hard it was is a bit embarrassing, if I'm being totally frank back to you. But to each their own. I'm glad you will be hunting elk this fall, I hope to be doing the same after I jump into the fracas next week. Good luck on the hunt!


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

DFW prepping for the sale:


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

> I'm sorry? This whole thread rubs me the wrong way. Watching a bunch of guys that *GOT TAGS* whine about how hard it was is a bit embarrassing, if I'm being totally frank back to you. But to each their own. I'm glad you will be hunting elk this fall, I hope to be doing the same after I jump into the fracas next week. Good luck on the hunt!


You're right, my bad. I have a tag so the system works perfectly and therefore no changes should be made moving forward.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

jewbacca said:


> You're right, my bad. I have a tag so the system works perfectly and therefore no changes should be made moving forward.


Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm glad you picked up on that. Do you always make things up to argue against, or just here?


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Fair enough Niller'!

So do ya think that if the DWR had a perfect system and all those that wanted tags were immediately able to check out and get one that you would still have been able to log in at 3PM and pick one up? I don't know the answer to that one either but I bet the sell out would have happened much much sooner than it did.

Honestly I really do get the keep it OTC crowd and part of me says you are correct--those that wanted the tag 'hard enough' got one so maybe this isn't a problem after all. Ya almost got me convinced! 

Of course I would totally get behind unlimited tags if it was HAMS weapons but you know how I like to impose arbitrary weapon rules on others hehehe! 🤪


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

My worry of an unlimited OTC tag is the stress it would place on animals if the number sold was really really high. Having the woods absolutely packed is sure to either run every animal out there onto private or have a larger winter die off due to more animals not being able to recover from the stress. 

The DWR website is very very messed up. There were a lot of people still waiting in line in the afternoon and I logged in a couple of times just to see if they were still available and had absolutely no wait at all. Got right in. That's not right 🤔


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Airborne said:


> So do ya think that if the DWR had a perfect system and all those that wanted tags were immediately able to check out and get one that you would still have been able to log in at 3PM and pick one up? I don't know the answer to that one either but I bet the sell out would have happened much much sooner than it did.


No idea. My gut tells me yes I could have, though. I do not believe over 1,000 people that wanted tags on Tuesday just gave up and quit trying after having issues or a long queue. I'm guessing those people exist, but that number has to be small. If someone wants to hunt, they stick it out, like the 47,000 people did the last two years. (Soon to be 62,000 next week) So while it is admittedly just a wild guess, yes, I'm guessing if the system could accommodate all the people that logged in 11 times for 1 tag without a hiccup that I still could have purchased a tag at 3pm Tuesday. 

All bets are off next year, though. With the amount of fear mongering you see even on this thread, can you imagine the stories that will be told in early July of 2022? I'm guessing people will tell tales of having to sever a finger just to pass the firewall!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

You poor, poor bastages. 

Time to go print off my tags. Need to load more ink and get a new ream of paper though


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## DIRTYS6X6 (May 19, 2021)

As for me I was able to log in 4 separate times. Each time tags were still available I chose not to purchase a tag. With early general rifle deer tags and a Moose tag in hand I believe that will keep me busy for most of the fall. 

Good luck and have great fall.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> You poor, poor bastages.
> 
> Time to go print off my tags. Need to load more ink and get a new ream of paper though


Go ahead an rub it in ya Lucky Lucky Bastage! Just don't let that grizz living in your back yard bite ya on the a$$! 😆


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Airborne said:


> Go ahead an rub it in ya Lucky Lucky Bastage! Just don't let that grizz living in your back yard bite ya on the a$$! 😆


I save that for special occasions.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I'm gonna break in here and be perfectly honest that I didn't read everything in this thread before posting, so don't blast me if this has already been pounded to death. I didn't get a tag this year, but I didn't try either. Too many other interests this fall...maybe next year.

To be frank, the fiasco of the past 2 years and the rush to get tags is manufactured fear. You can't tell me that an increasing population is making tags hard to come by...yet. Before COVID, you could wait until late August or even early Sept, and there would still be any bull tags left. Now, 2 years later, they sell out in hours??? Did our population explode in 2 years to the point that there are too many people for available tags? Absolutely not - it's the manufactured fear perpetuated by 24-7 social media that has hyped the "better get them while you can because me, mine and theirs are already applying and if you don't act fast, yours is going to be screwed". It's herd mentality plain and simple. It happened with TP, housing, certain durable goods, and now it is impacting hunting. Thank you COVID with a healthy dose of social media hysteria to boot.

I'm not saying that population will not play a significant factor in the future. Absolutely it will, there's no way around it. It's just not that...yet.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

👆 Bingo!


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