# I hate to say it!!!!



## SleepyG (Dec 23, 2008)

Well I hate to say it and I hate to add to the fire but Utah's upland hunting experience is terrible. I finally had a couple of chances to do some pheasant hunting during the very short season in this state, and was very disappointed. I mean I was in certain places that should have had pheasant up the rear end but didn't see a darn thing. Hell it should be a great place for quail but you never see them either. I guess my question is why are we letting get this way? Why is there not enough lobbying for more upland preservation and development. This state has, from my understanding, very good big game numbers and conservation efforts, why isn't it applied to the upland hunts also. 

I have a beautiful baby daughter and I for one cant wait till the day she is old enough to take her out on a hunt for pheasant quail etc. But at this rate it seems like this isn't going to happen the way things are going. Is it a matter of volunteering or funds or is it just plain not caring on the states behalf. If its the latter that is shame and very discouraging to hear. My dad started taking me when i was very young and after my first experience i have been hooked ever since. Its always been a really good way for him and I to bond, and i want to continue that tradition with my daughter. 

So what do we have to do in order to get Utah back to its prime? Any suggestions?


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Figure out a way to make upland produce revenue like the elk and the problem will be solved.


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## hunter_orange13 (Oct 11, 2008)

on a farm i work on there are TONS of pheasents! i've seen a quadrillion i swear! not really, but theres plenty. and a beef farm, by my house, i've seen 8 just today. 2 roosters. 4 hens, and 2 unsure. i had one land so close to me i could kick it! but agreed, thats the only 2 places i've seen pheasents for a long time! :evil:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> So what do we have to do in order to get Utah back to its prime? Any suggestions?


Jump in a time machine and go back to 1965 when there were lots of birds, lots of habitat for birds, and only a half million people living here. Plus, there weren't any *****, foxes, and a huge influx of house cats that seem so fallow a population increase.

The reasons we will never see pheasant hunting the way it "was" are many.

Predation, permanent loss of habitat, population explosion, and a DWR that could give a rats patootie about upland game hunting.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Listening to the radio today, they were saying that Utah is now the fastest growing state with a current population of 2.7 million people. Mind you, that's just the latest count.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I was also very down on Pheasants and Utah's upland hunting (and still am) but over the past week while I've just been driving around the snow has been bringing the pheasants out around my area. In one field there was 10 pheasants, 3 roosters 7 hens, and in another 5 hens, and also a few other lone roosters. I have watched these same birds in the same fields the last couple weeks and keep seeing quite a few pheasants in my area. Obviously about 20-30 pheasants in about 3 weeks isn't much but its definitely more than I've seen for quite a few years in such a short span. Buy some traps (foot and live traps) put in some bait and do what you can to get rid of the predators of pheasants. I haven't found quite the right things to attract a lot of them yet but catch a few *****/skunks over a month or so I have yet to get a coyote or fox to be dumb enough yet though. Just do what you can to help the pheasants in your area and most people can only try to kill the predators. Killing a few *****, skunks, yotes, and foxes goes a long way when it comes to pheasant nesting season. I've came upon a few hens in my fields over the past couple years only to see a coyote early in the morning having him some pheasant and eggs that's around 5 or 6 pheasants plus the mother or more when a predator gets into a pheasant nest. The area I am in could regain a fair herd of pheasants if a few ditch banks were left unfed and uncut and the predator population wasn't so out of control. Although many blame eagles, hawks, and predators of the sky I watched two bald eagles in a tree for about a week and around 10 pheasants less than a hundred yards below them and across the field from the tree they were in. For the week they sat there they never made a move at all to go after the pheasants and there was always the same amount of birds every morning when I went down, my point eagles, hawks, and such have an effect and probably get a few birds but I think the predators of the ground are what is really killing off whats left of Utah's pheasant population. 

There is the same saying said by so many that they shoot skunks, foxes, coyotes, and raccoons when they see them, well the truth is that is just not enough to help the rule of thumb I would say is from those *****, foxes, etc. you come across during your hunting just know about 99% still remain in hiding that you don't and will never see unless you really hunt them out (dogs, traps, etc.). While hunting in the last 5 years I have probably came across and killed 1 raccoon(with a car) 2 skunks(shot) and 2 coyotes(shot) and no foxes although I have seen some never have got close enough to kill. After about 5 months of trapping 4 skunks, 2 raccoons, 0 coyotes, and 0 foxes. Trapping can take care of your predator problem far faster than when you just so happen to come across the stupid few.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Also to add in it is a DWR that really doesn't give a rats ass because I have watched grouse numbers go down in the past few years, and chukar numbers completely plummet to lower than I could ever have thought they would get. I used to not go a day ,while trying to hunt them, see around 30-40 chukars every single time I went out and get around 2-3 each trip. This year I have yet to see a bunch of chukars during the season (only a few tracks in the snow when I went Sunday) and have not fired a single shot at one yet. Too bad the only thing Utah's DWR cares about is the elk if everything could do as well in Utah as the elk herds we be the best state to hunt anything in.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Too bad the only thing Utah's DWR cares about is the elk


Well, We gots a pile of turkeys in this state.  Something that we never had before. Thanks to the efforts of a strong turkey plan we now have as many if not more birds than Idaho. It will be over the counter next year if all goes well and the turkey hunting in this state will continue to get better every year. Turkeys differ from most upland birds in that they are much more hardy, they don't suffer near as much from predation, and they have a very high chick survival ratio. Pheasants, chukars, and quail have all but three of these qualities.

The DWR despite all their shortcomings, have hit a home run with turkeys. If it weren't for the efforts of the NWTF, SFW, and countless volunteers the turkey would still be a figment of our imagination.

Pick the battles you can win I guess...


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I do have to give them a pat on the back for stocking up the turkey's in Utah and it is becoming evident that it is working well. Also I know they have stocked, stocked, and restocked pheasants and now are beginning to move past the pheasant and stop trying on it. The stocking they have done has done no good as long as Utah's predator situation stays at the magnitude its at now. They need to come up with a good plan or a plan at all to get rid of predators of the Upland, Waterfowl, etc. to make Utah's upland game herds grow as well as even duck and goose numbers. Getting rid of the predators in areas would make a giant difference.


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## Ryfly (Sep 13, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Also to add in it is a DWR that really doesn't give a **** I have watched grouse numbers go down in the past few years, and chukar numbers completely plummet to lower than I could ever have thought they would get. I used to not go a day ,while trying to hunt them, see around 30-40 chukars every single time I went out and get around 2-3 each trip. This year I have yet to see a bunch of chukars during the season (only a few tracks in the snow when I went Sunday) and have not fired a single shot at one yet. Too bad the only thing Utah's DWR cares about is the elk if everything could do as well in Utah as the elk herds we be the best state to hunt anything in.


It seems to me that Chukars and grouse numbers are mostly determined by the weather patterns during nesting and brood rearing. I don't imagine you expect the DWR to water the grass in the desert? I'm sure the DWR could do more for upland game but not everything is their fault.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

On eye, I feel your pain. I love hunting pheasants more than any other game animal furred or feathered. When I was a kid I used to walk home from school with my H&R 20 ga single shot hunting pheasants in the ditch banks around Murray. Those days are long gone and so are the bird numbers we used to have back then.

The problem with "stocking" pheasants is the pen raised variety usually doesn't do too well in the wild. They are sitting ducks for all kinds of predators including raptors. At best, the pheasant stocking program is a "put and take" type operation. Just like the rainbow trout. The put and take fisheries program is a very successful thing with many people enjoying the resource. And, compared to pheasants, stocking 30 thousand rainbow trout is very cost effective. In other words, you get more bang for your taxpayer/license buyer buck. Pheasants are a lot harder to raise, and WAY more expensive to stock that fish.

Like I said earlier, the DWR is going to pick nice easy battles they can win, and pheasants aint one of them.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Hey Tex correct me if I am wrong but pheasants,chukars,and huns are all non native birds and were planted many moons ago.The pheasants came from China and the huns and chukars from the middle east Pakistan and Afghanistan if memory serves right.With that in mind I find it hard to believe the DWR is not capable of vastly improving these birds if only they had the desire and motivation to do so.The success of the turkeys has been nothing short of amasing but most likely would not have happened if not for the NWTF.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> Hey Tex correct me if I am wrong but pheasants,chukars,and huns are all non native birds and were planted many moons ago.The pheasants came from China and the huns and chukars from the middle east Pakistan and Afghanistan if memory serves right.With that in mind I find it hard to believe the DWR is not capable of vastly improving these birds if only they had the desire and motivation to do so.The success of the turkeys has been nothing short of amasing but most likely would not have happened if not for the NWTF.


Your are correct. They are all non-native birds.

When they were first introduced back 100 years ago or so they were not the same "pen reared" type bird that we're currently stocking now. Two VERY separate birds!
Plus, they went years before hunting them as to let their numbers build. Not all plantings were successful either, sometimes it would take several attempts and several years to get them to "stick". AND... there were not the predators back then that we have now.

So, I say again, times have changed... :wink:


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> [quote="luv2fsh&hnt":1t0le0ah]Hey Tex correct me if I am wrong but pheasants,chukars,and huns are all non native birds and were planted many moons ago.The pheasants came from China and the huns and chukars from the middle east Pakistan and Afghanistan if memory serves right.With that in mind I find it hard to believe the DWR is not capable of vastly improving these birds if only they had the desire and motivation to do so.The success of the turkeys has been nothing short of amasing but most likely would not have happened if not for the NWTF.


Your are correct. They are all non-native birds.

When they were first introduced back 100 years ago or so they were not the same "pen reared" type bird that we're currently stocking now. Two VERY separate birds!
Plus, they went years before hunting them as to let their numbers build. Not all plantings were successful either, sometimes it would take several attempts and several years to get them to "stick". AND... there were not the predators back then that we have now.

So, I say again, times have changed... :wink:[/quote:1t0le0ah]

Ok that makes sense Tex.I do know of one area in the state that holds the pheasant numbers of yesteryear.Why couldn't the state trap some of these birds and move them around like they did with the gobblers only putting them on private ground like they did with the gobblers to at least try and reestablish the ringnecks?For selfish reasons it would suck for me if they did this but would probly be good for the birds for a lot of different reasons.With chukars and Huns where they would covey up with wild birds it is not unrealistic many of the planted birds would learn survival skills from their wild counterparts.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I do know of one area in the state that holds the pheasant numbers of yesteryear.


I would like to see this spot...

Yesteryear to _me_ is a bunch of birds. I mean we're talking 200 birds in one stubble field all visible from the truck. (Delta circa 1978.) Is that the yesteryear you remember? (I'm old)


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## coolgunnings (Sep 8, 2007)

I have seen great grouse and chukar numbers, in certain parts of this state, this season. If your hunting the same old spots from yesteryear, maybe its time to check out some new areas.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > I do know of one area in the state that holds the pheasant numbers of yesteryear.
> 
> 
> I would like to see this spot...
> ...


I only hunted it once this year when I arrived there were 50-60 roosters standing in the road.When I walked into the field another 30-40 birds got up,on the first shot the sky turned black with birds and the hunt was over in 15 minutes.This is private property and the guy refuses to let me take anyone with me or I would take you Tex.Hell he won't even let me take my kid with me and he warned me if he caught me taking anyone he wouldn't let me hunt anymore.I will send you a pm with the location and you can try to get permission but I will forewarn you it took me five years to get permission to hunt birds and he still won't let me hunt deer on his property.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

tumblingwings said:


> I have seen great grouse and chukar numbers, in certain parts of this state, this season. If your hunting the same old spots from yesteryear, maybe its time to check out some new areas.


I have been studying the map trying to find new areas to check out but if you want to point me in the right direction I will gladly accept your pm.The pheasant spot I was talking about in my reply to Tex is private ground and the chukars are the same out there but up on the hill but the property the chukars are on changed hands and I haven't gotten permission to hunt it from the new owners.In fact A guy doesn't even have to hike out there to kill chukars they are so thick if a guy wanted he could road hunt them outthere.


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## Ryfly (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm not as old as Tex but I'm old enough to have seen lots of changes to Utah in my time. When I was a kid here in West Jordan there was nothing but fields from my street around 9300 South all the way down to 10600 South and beyond. We could and would walk through there all day catching snakes and bugs along the ditches and never even cross a fence. There were lots of Pheasants back then. Now it's solid houses. If there was an empty spot in there somewhere I wouldn't expect it to hold a bird and transplanting some there wouldn't help. Pheasants have been in Utah long enough that they already occupy all suitable habitat. If they used to be there but they aren't there now then there is some other reason for it like habitat loss/degredation or predators. The reason Turkeys are doing well is because there is habitat for them. It also happens to be grouse habitat and I wonder about the impact they have on them but that's another story.


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## SleepyG (Dec 23, 2008)

I can guarantee you the reason for the loss of pheasant and other upland birds that thrive in the lower evaluations, like Huns pheasants sage grouse hell even cotton tails. Is due to the "Olympics"! 

Im not originally from Utah, im born and raised in Idaho, I just happen to be based at Hill AFB. But i do remember a time when i was young and my family would come down to Salt Lake. And passing through Trementon all the way to Kaysville and you didn't see too many houses like you do now a days. You could see fields for miles all the way to the Lake which mainly consisted of farm land and scattered homes. Now all you see is housing developments, which bring dogs, cats traffic and just dumb people to what used to be a relatively quite country living. Well for the most part as long as you stayed away from Ogden and Salt Lake areas.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I spend some time every year in Kansas hunting pheasants (I tell my wife I am deer hunting, but I know better). Kansas has more birds than a guy can imagine. They also have more coyotes, racoons, skunks, and birds of prey than I have seen in Utah. The 2 things Kansas has that Utah does not is simple--- Grain Agriculture and CRP.

If Utah ever wants to gain a pheasant population then farmers need to raise grain and put lands into CRP. That won't happen though, the land is much more productive raising 2 story McMansions or $200 a ton alfalfa.

So I recommend taking 4 days and hunt the Midwest. It costs less than 15 birds from the local bird farm. Is there anything better than pushing a 100 yard long x 10 yard wide, weed row and having over 500 birds come out? And the quail, did I mention the quail? Or the prarie grouse? Utah can have it, but there has to be a complete change in the Ag use.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Utah has TONS of upland game! I dont know what you are talking about. Just visit an old neighborhood in Murray and you will see more quail than you can shake a stick at! :roll: 

But honestly, I wish we had more hunters willing to start some sort of program to produce more upland birds. I would definitely donate to the cause if I knew it was going to my state (unlike Pheasants Forever, which is a good program but doesnt help Utah much).

Saw a couple pheasants in southern Utah but no quail this year. Went dove hunting opening day but only saw a handful in areas I couldnt shoot by Utah Lake. Pine hens were no where to be found when hunting in the forest, only saw one and that was on the deer hunt when Chaser and I didnt have a shotgun  also saw a HUGE snow shoe hare while hunting for deer.

As far as upland birds are concerned, forget it. The have gone the way of the dinosaurs in Utah. 

I find the only successful hunts anymore involve pop-can assasinations


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

Utah just doesn't have the pheasant, quail, and sharp-tail grouse habitat that it once did- and that's not going to change significantly. On the other hand, Utah does have a large amount of chukar and forest grouse habitat. Upland hunters in Utah ought to focus on those species and save themselves the disappointment of the pheasant hunt. (Unless you have private land access-then by all means enjoy your hunt.) It's true that chukar and grouse numbers do fluctuate, but its mostly due to weather a natural event that's just part of the fun. The advantage to hunting these species is the fact that everyone has access to the very best places to hunt, for free. And no matter what, there are always some grouse and chukar around. If you get completely skunked in half a day of hunting either of those two species, you need to do some more scouting- because they are out there.

That said, I wish the DWR would place more emphasis on small game. A little investment could really pay off in introducing chukar to areas that could support a population, but are too remote to acquire chukars on their own and in maintaining wildlife water sources during the summer heat.

Check out the Utah Chukar and Wildlife Foundation, http://www.utahchukars.org/ an organization that is currently working with the DWR to improve upland hunting. Your $20 membership would be very much appreciated- or consider attending our upcoming banquet, where your admission could win you some fantastic prizes (guns, vests, art, gear, etc.) If you have any questions about this organization, feel free to PM me.


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## SleepyG (Dec 23, 2008)

Im very new to Chukar hunting, actually I never heard of a chukar or seen one till i came to Utah. And the only one i have ever seen was in a pen. Where do i find them, i don't mind hiking as i know they are a challenging bird to hunt. I live around the Ogden area and am really looking for a replacement upland bird to the pheasant and quail since i cant find them unless its private property or a cage shoot.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

SleepyG said:


> Im very new to Chukar hunting, actually I never heard of a chukar or seen one till i came to Utah. And the only one i have ever seen was in a pen. Where do i find them, i don't mind hiking as i know they are a challenging bird to hunt. I live around the Ogden area and am really looking for a replacement upland bird to the pheasant and quail since i cant find them unless its private property or a cage shoot.


Come to the Utah Chukar and Wildlife Foundation banquet and you'll find a room of the best chukar hunters in the state.

(Pm me and I'll get you details.)


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## Red-Grouse (Sep 22, 2007)

SleepyG said:


> Im very new to Chukar hunting, *actually I never heard of a chukar or seen one till i came to Utah.*


Didn't you say you grew up in Idaho

I think this topic has been hased to Death RyFly, Packout, and others have made sufficient comments to explain the real issues! *HABITAT * If you want to be a pessimistic SOB then and blame the dwr for everything under the sun then MOVE!


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## SleepyG (Dec 23, 2008)

Sure did. I just never heard of chukar before. My dad was more into dove quail and rabbits for small game, oh and especially varmit hunting like the elusive rock chuck.


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## SleepyG (Dec 23, 2008)

I think the moving part would be kinda hard since im in the airforce and based up here at Hill AFB. Good thing I dont live to far from my home state.


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## Red-Grouse (Sep 22, 2007)

Well then grin and bare it? :wink: 

This isn't Idaho abut there is good hunting to be had, If you insist on shooting ditch parrots then buy a club member ship and scratch your itch! Other wise you best learn about forest grouse and chukars!


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## SleepyG (Dec 23, 2008)

Oh I have been hunting forest grouse, they are fun but a lot of work that is for sure. Chukars ill just need to find places that arent going to cost me an arm and a leg to get to them. By that i mean gas prices. Living around the Ogden area doesnt make it the most economic choice of birds to hunt.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

SleepyG said:


> Oh I have been hunting forest grouse, they are fun but a lot of work that is for sure. Chukars ill just need to find places that arent going to cost me an arm and a leg to get to them. By that i mean gas prices. Living around the Ogden area doesnt make it the most economic choice of birds to hunt.


Hey Sleepy I live in Ogden also and I am not going to tell you exactly where to find them but there are chukars within a 10 minute drive of downtown.Sometimes you have to chase them up above the power lines so you are legal to shoot but there are birds close to Ogden bud.


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## SleepyG (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks for the info.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

It's not that Utah is a bad state to hunt birds in. It's the habitat loss, public land loss, and pressure that kills the hunting experience. 
I have to drive 50 miles to go hunt Quail and Pheasant, and then when I come home there are quail in my front yard and pheasants a block up the street. The grouse situation is the same. I'll go hike 20 miles looking for birds and not find anything, and then I drive to a CWMU for my cow hunt and jump seriously over 300 birds in less than 2 miles. 
The public opprotunities suck here!!!


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## Red-Grouse (Sep 22, 2007)

Too many folks with a glass half empty around here :| 

Utah is 85% public land? the only state with more public land is Nevada you could try moving there?


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

That public land includes the Great Salt Lake Desert and the lake itself. As well as red rock areas that support a jackrabbit every 3 or 4 square miles.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Well, you both have good points.

A lot of Utah is inert land with little to no hunting opportunity, but on the other hand, Utah does have a lot to offer in the way of public land too. As with all states, Utah has room for improvement. As far as pheasants go, that ship has long since sailed. I think we need to focus on what we do have and make that the best it can be. More phrag control and habitat restoration in our marshes. More chukar programs that *work*. Later seasons so the birds we hunt have a chance to mature. Continued turkey management and transplanting into new areas. The list goes on. We have more 400+ bull elk than any other place on earth, but we can't keep phrag from taking over the whole state... That sh*t grows everywhere! It's as bad as the cudsue (sp) vine problem in the south. An introduced plant that is taking over the planet.

My glass is half full BTW!


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## birdman (Nov 21, 2007)

The grass is always greener....I moved here from the midwest a dozen years ago. Clearly after the hayday of pheasants in Utah and had no expectations of hunting them here, so I simply don't miss them. But the grouse and chukar hunting here (in most years) is awesome compared to the hunting I grew up with in Ohio. Virtually no public land and really only hunted grouse because both the quail and pheasant populations were gone after the blizzard of '77 killed most of them. A great day of grouse hunting was usually getting 6-8 flushes for an entire day of hunting. I've had days here were I have that many flushes in the first half hour. Shoot, I've killed a limit and been back to the truck in 30 minutes on at least one occasion in the last couple of years. The number of days over 40 flushes in Ohio can probably be counted on one hand while two years ago I probably only had a couple where I didn't have 40 flushes. Of course, the grouse in Ohio were a heck of a lot more challenging than they are here but that's not the point. Don't even get me started on the chukars. It's ridiculous. My dog has pointed more birds here in a season than they would in a lifetime back in Ohio. 
I understand peoples disappointment in comparing "the good ol' days" to now but look at the bright side, you can hop in the trunk and drive whatever distance you like and just go hunt without having to exhaust hours of time knocking on doors hoping to find one person that will let you hunt. The good old days are gone, too much habitat fragmentation and change in agricultural methods here for pheasants. The quail I don't quite understand. The chukars and grouse really just need the benefit of a couple good springs to wipe away the disappointments of this year. Sure there are always going to be places that are better for certain species. Some even great for several, such as Kansas. But then you'd have to live in Kansas. No offense to Kansas but I love the mountains and the desert and all that go with them. I am certainly a glass half full person in this argument. Shoot, with some good spring rains that glass could be overflowing again.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> No offense to Kansas but I love the mountains and the desert


Amen.

I too love the mountains. I also love the prairie and the open space one can only find in the Midwest. I love hunting there but I sure wouldn't want to live there.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > No offense to Kansas but I love the mountains and the desert
> 
> 
> Amen.
> ...


+1000000


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