# Glass - Vortex vs. Kowa/Swaro



## adamb (Sep 23, 2007)

I have owned a pair of 10x42 Diamondbacks for about 10 years. They have worked fairly well for me, but I’m looking to upgrade my binos and finally pull the trigger on a spotting scope for my upcoming LE elk tag.

Are the higher tier Vortex binos/scopes good enough or will I be giving up a lot by not going with Kowa or Swaro?

I’m tempted to go with the Vortex due to price and available discounts..


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Go Swarovski ELs, the difference is unbelievable.. The price has really dropped since the NL's came out. If you want to save another 10% buy them at Cabelas on Tuesday.

-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

There's a very noticeable difference in quality between the best Vortex spotters and Kowa/Swarovski. The pure fluorite crystal lenses on the top end Kowas are incredible, and my eyes like them better than the top end Swaros. 

That being said, for an elk hunt (or really any hunt in Utah besides desert bighorn), I can't imagine why you'd need to spend the extra $ to get the additional performance quality that you get from Kowa/Swaro vs Vortex.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I told him in PMs, that Swarovski EL 10x42 binoculars are clearer and better than my 85MM Vortex Razor spotter. The spotter of course can zoom in more, so thats a plus if you have time to set it up.

But yea, like Mr Cake said, I got to view a swaro and kowa side by side on a MtGoat hunt... Kowa was clearer / brighter. Its odd in scope reviews (mostly bird'ers) they never really compare a lineup vs Kowa.

I also mentioned in a PM, if you are a Cabela's club card member, every Tuesday this month is 10% off... and that does include glass. Just say'n... that can save you alot of $$$.

-DallanC


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

I had a pair of Kowa Genesis 10.5x44s. The glass was great, but the rest of the binocular was not as good. The focus knob has a lot of backlash and was impossible to keep sand out of so it always made a grinding sound. It also weighed a couple oz more than the swaros. IMO, get a pair of used Swaro ELs or SLC. With the pure out now, the ELs are several hundred dollars cheaper. The Diamondbacks are a good value imo, but the difference is huge between the Swaros and the Diamondbacks.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

used slc's would be worth a look too. i'd also look through a pair of el's before buying to see if you get the rolling ball effect from the field flattener. i wouldn't put vortex spotters in the same class as kowa/swaro, nor do i see the return in investment for new prices but that's your call. 

what distance are you spotting at and what time of day primarily? what type of resolution do you need? is low light performance your top priority or resolution?

if you know the situations you'll be using them then it'll be easier for you to decide where to put your money. if money is not a problem then get the swaro pure and kowa spotter


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Good question - you can always rent Swaros through this guy: Optics4Rent Rental quality optics spotting scopes binoculars

My honest opinion is that no one compares Swaro to Vortex, it's always the other way around. If you want Swaro/Kowa performance, you just have to bite the bullet and pay the price. I've completely moved away from Vortex and now strictly have Swaro for my binos and spotter. I have a pair of 10x42 SLC's that I'm going to sale here shortly and upgrade to the NL Pures.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

I guess I am getting a little off topic, but although I do not like the high end Kowa Binos, I own 2 Kowa Spotters and they are excellent, every bit as good as Swarovski, especially the fluorite models. I had a Vortex Razor 85mm spotter for a while and it was also very good, better than a Swaro 65mm ATS, and comparable to an 80mm STS. By far, the best vortex glass I have ever looked through. The razor binos however, did not compare to swarovski el. I guess my point is there is good glass to be had and is very dependent on models more so than the brand. Everything Kowa is not good, just like everything Vortex is not sub par.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I believe that the quality of the optic is going to be in the person who is using them. 

I have a pair of Swaro's 10x42 El's and to me the clarity or light gathering capabilities are no clearer than my old pair of Leopold Cascades in 10x42. My brother in law preferred using my Leopold's to his Cabela's Euro's branded Meopta's. 

It also will depend on just what you are going to use those optics for. Most grade their optics with the bird watchers in mind, picking out slight differences in the species of birds at long distances or even shot distances when they can get closer. I personally think that most hunters don't need the higher quality of optics when looking at a animal in the distance. One place that they might need it is when looking at sheep and trying to judge their age, but when you are looking at a full curl ram you are looking at that full curled ram. Perhaps if there were 2 or 3 in the group you might want to pick out the slight differences between them but most optics out there will do that as along as you have a good view of them. 

One other thing on Swaro's. I was reading a couple of years ago that their warranty is only valid to the original purchaser unless the used ones were purchased at a authorized Swarovski dealer


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

toasty said:


> I had a Vortex Razor 85mm spotter for a while and it was also very good, better than a Swaro 65mm ATS, and comparable to an 80mm STS.


 I had the vortex viper 80 and razor 85 (first gen on both). I put them through their paces for a month and kept the viper. I did not find a performance gain and did not like the cooler tones of the razor.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

APD said:


> I did not find a performance gain ...


You mean for the money right? The razor is definitely better glass.



APD said:


> ...and did not like the cooler tones of the razor.


I bought a close-out Kings Camo neophrene cover for my Gen1 Razor. It fits nice and looks really nice. I actually like the grey vs the "forest green" every other mfg seems to use.

-DallanC


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

DallanC said:


> You mean for the money right? The razor is definitely better glass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not even for the money... These were 1st gen and my sample of one each I preferred the viper. 

The cooler tone vs warm tone was in relation to the view through the glass. Certain companies are know for warm tones and others cool tones. Warmer tones tend to make brown fur stand out to me. Cooler tones often are truer and resolves better to some. All eyes are different and that's how mine preferred the view between the two.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

I'll add that I'm no glass connoisseur but I've begun to learn what works for me.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> It also will depend on just what you are going to use those optics for. Most grade their optics with the bird watchers in mind, picking out slight differences in the species of birds at long distances or even shot distances when they can get closer. I personally think that most hunters don't need the higher quality of optics when looking at a animal in the distance. One place that they might need it is when looking at sheep and trying to judge their age, but when you are looking at a full curl ram you are looking at that full curled ram. Perhaps if there were 2 or 3 in the group you might want to pick out the slight differences between them but most optics out there will do that as along as you have a good view of them.


Generally, I agree with this--right up to the full curl ram bit. Judging whether a ram (dall/stone sheep) is full curl versus 7/8 can be a very challenging thing at even 300 yards, let alone a few miles--and the number of sublegal sheep killed, even by guided clients, each year in Alaska is disturbingly high (some regions last year were 1:3 rams killed were sublegal, often because they thought it was full curl when it was only 7/8). Bighorns, that isn't really an issue unless you're a resident of certain Canadian provinces that have curl restrictions on bighorn hunts. 

But if all I ever planned to hunt was deer/elk/pronghorn in Utah/L48 I don't think I could justify the added expense for a Kowa/Swaro spotter vs. a Vortex unless I really didn't have anything else I'd rather spend the extra +$2k on


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## 2pntkiller (10 mo ago)

I have a vortex razor 85mm and my hunting partner has a Swarovski. You can noticeably see a difference side by side, this is looking in the mountains at elk not in a parking lot at cabelas at freeway signs. I'm going to be upgrading to the swaro this year after seeing the difference.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Personally I think you need to justify cost to use. If you use infrequently, then I would save the money. If you spend the money on the Kowa or Swaro, you really need to be able to justify the frequent use. I use my optics several times a month whether spotting, scouting, hunting, digiscoping, etc. 

I run a Kowa Prominar 883 spotter that runs the pure flourite glass. Love it!!!! Had a Swaro spotter and thought this Kowa is hands down better. But I also run the Vortex UHD 12x50 glasses and when setting them on a tripod next to the EL 12x50 glasses, I can't personally see any difference between the two. Thats to my eye. Might not be the same for you or others. I would like to sell my UHDs in the future and get the NL Pure 12x42 glasses. But I am a couple years away from that. 

If you are the guy that draws the limited tag, upgrades all his stuff for the hunt, and then sells afterward, you are going to eat it on the resell on most of those brands regardless. But more so on Vortex. Another thing to consider is the tripod. Don't get a nice piece of glass and pair it with a piece of crap tripod! The tripod and tripod head can make a $3000+ Kowa or Swaro look like crap! There's nice tripods out there that can be had for 200-300 and tripod heads that can be had for 150 or so unless you want to get the Outdoorsman set-up. I would check out S&S Archery for those things. 

I don't know where you are located, but you are welcome to come and look through my Kowa spotter, and UHD binoculars. I am out in Grantsville Utah. 

Good luck!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> Generally, I agree with this--right up to the full curl ram bit. Judging whether a ram (dall/stone sheep) is full curl versus 7/8 can be a very challenging thing at even 300 yards, let alone a few miles--and the number of sublegal sheep killed, even by guided clients, each year in Alaska is disturbingly high (some regions last year were 1:3 rams killed were sublegal, often because they thought it was full curl when it was only 7/8). Bighorns, that isn't really an issue unless you're a resident of certain Canadian provinces that have curl restrictions on bighorn hunts.
> 
> But if all I ever planned to hunt was deer/elk/pronghorn in Utah/L48 I don't think I could justify the added expense for a Kowa/Swaro spotter vs. a Vortex unless I really didn't have anything else I'd rather spend the extra +$2k on


I agree on judging a ram, but that usually comes with the magnification of the spotter along with the person that is using it. Even a person using a sub par spotter should be able to tell just how far a curl on a rams horn curls and if it is marginal you need to get closer even with the best optic out there. 




2pntkiller said:


> I have a vortex razor 85mm and my hunting partner has a Swarovski. You can noticeably see a difference side by side, this is looking in the mountains at elk not in a parking lot at cabelas at freeway signs. I'm going to be upgrading to the swaro this year after seeing the difference.


But what are the differences you are seeing when looking at a elk? Is it the points or the length of tines? I have a very old Bausch + Lomb spotter that I can see the differences with on the tine length and the number of points. It isn't as clear up in the upper powers like a quality scope but it works.


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## 2pntkiller (10 mo ago)

BigT said:


> Personally I think you need to justify cost to use. If you use infrequently, then I would save the money. If you spend the money on the Kowa or Swaro, you really need to be able to justify the frequent use. I use my optics several times a month whether spotting, scouting, hunting, digiscoping, etc.
> 
> I run a Kowa Prominar 883 spotter that runs the pure flourite glass. Love it!!!! Had a Swaro spotter and thought this Kowa is hands down better. But I also run the Vortex UHD 12x50 glasses and when setting them on a tripod next to the EL 12x50 glasses, I can't personally see any difference between the two. Thats to my eye. Might not be the same for you or others. I would like to sell my UHDs in the future and get the NL Pure 12x42 glasses. But I am a couple years away from that.
> 
> ...



Id take you up and look through that kowa


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## 2pntkiller (10 mo ago)

Critter said:


> I agree on judging a ram, but that usually comes with the magnification of the spotter along with the person that is using it. Even a person using a sub par spotter should be able to tell just how far a curl on a rams horn curls and if it is marginal you need to get closer even with the best optic out there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its more so the low light. It was dark enough I could just see the cream color bodies and the swaro can still see the elk just fine.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

2pntkiller said:


> Its more so the low light. It was dark enough I could just see the cream color bodies and the swaro can still see the elk just fine.


Thats a really good point some people overlook. Alot of glass looks great and comparable at noon on a clear day... but in those hours of fading light, that's where performance will be amplified and noticeable.

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I am a fan of Vortex and believe they have a lot of bang for the buck. At least they did when I bought my spotter many years ago. That said, there simply is no comparison between those you mention and Vortex when it comes to overall quality. Vortex works for my needs compared to my disposable income level. If my disposable income level rose substantially, then Vortex would no longer work for me and I'd have no hesitation upgrading. 

It would be really hard for me to bite the bullet and justify spending $3K+ on glass in my current circumstances. I no doubt want to, however!


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

2pntkiller said:


> Id take you up and look through that kowa


K. Happy to arrange a time.. You in Tooele?


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## 2pntkiller (10 mo ago)

BigT said:


> K. Happy to arrange a time.. You in Tooele?


I sent you a pm


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> I am a fan of Vortex and believe they have a lot of bang for the buck. At least they did when I bought my spotter many years ago. That said, there simply is no comparison between those you mention and Vortex when it comes to overall quality. Vortex works for my needs compared to my disposable income level. If my disposable income level rose substantially, then Vortex would no longer work for me and I'd have no hesitation upgrading.
> 
> It would be really hard for me to bite the bullet and justify spending $3K+ on glass in my current circumstances. I no doubt want to, however!


C'mon now Vanilla, I see attorney bills all the time - you can afford better glass!! Not to mention the Kuiu gear that helps you catch more fish!!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

CPAjeff said:


> C'mon now Vanilla, I see attorney bills all the time - you can afford better glass!! Not to mention the Kuiu gear that helps you catch more fish!!


How good of glass does one need to buy in order to see their precious herd of points growing in perpetuity?


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> How good of glass does one need to buy in order to see their precious herd of points growing in perpetuity?


Valid question. It seems Vortex glass is holding him back from cashing those points in. If only he'd switch to Swaro, he'd start drawing tags!!


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## 2pntkiller (10 mo ago)

CPAjeff said:


> Valid question. It seems Vortex glass is holding him back from cashing those points in. If only he'd switch to Swaro, he'd start drawing tags!!



I heard that about Sitka years ago and I can confirm ita not true. Sold all my Sitka cuz of it


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

CPAjeff said:


> Valid question. It seems Vortex glass is holding him back from cashing those points in. If only he'd switch to Swaro, he'd start drawing tags!!


Why would he want that?! Vanillabean doesn't like to hunt, he just loves accumulating and caressing his pretty points.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Why would he want that?! Vanillabean doesn't like to hunt, he just loves accumulating and caressing his pretty points.


I sleep with them each night. It’s glorious!

Try that with a single tag.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> I sleep with them each night. It’s glorious!
> 
> Try that with a single tag.


That's the beauty of the Northland, I never have to worry about only having one tag. And unlike your points, I don't have to pay for the privilege of sleeping with my tags if that's how I choose to roll. But no judgment, it is 2022 after all


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> That's the beauty of the Northland, I never have to worry about only having one tag. And unlike your points, I don't have to pay for the privilege of sleeping with my tags if that's how I choose to roll. But no judgment, it is 2022 after all


None of that is as cool as points. You’re just jealous!

And CPAJeff, I assure you that if Swaros were in the budget that I’d have already made the purchase. I’ve got to pay for all my points, after all!


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## 2pntkiller (10 mo ago)

But how about that wade lemon Trump ordeal


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Honestly, I just pack a pair of 12x50 vipers and a tripod, works for me.

Now if I had to be able to see if a moose was over 50, or a ram was full curl then I’d drop the money for some of the high end stuff but I’ll probably never have that problem.

Additionally, I have better than 20/20 vision, I’m sure that also helps.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Ray said:


> Additionally, I have better than 20/20 vision, I’m sure that also helps.


Enjoy it while it lasts! I used to be measured at 20/10. Not even sure what I am anymore, but I’m sure I need glasses.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Vanilla said:


> Enjoy it while it lasts! I sided to be measured at 20/10. Not even sure what I am anymore, but I’m sure I need glasses.


It’s sucks but it’s true, vision is the one thing that eventually goes for everyone


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## bobwhitebarry (May 26, 2017)

adamb said:


> I have owned a pair of 10x42 Diamondbacks for about 10 years. They have worked fairly well for me, but I’m looking to upgrade my binos and finally pull the trigger on a spotting scope for my upcoming LE elk tag.
> 
> Are the higher tier Vortex binos/scopes good enough or will I be giving up a lot by not going with Kowa or Swaro?
> 
> I’m tempted to go with the Vortex due to price and available discounts..


I bought Vortex 10x42'2 for my boys. They love them, but when they use my Leica 10x42 they can't believe the difference. I also own a Swarovski 12x50 EL and that is by far the best glass I have ever owned. I also have the Swarovski ATX spotting scope. Both have the Swarovski edge flattening that is superior to anything else I have seen.

Buy once, cry once!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

For bino's - there can be a pretty big difference. I have looked through 8 power swaro that felt like a spotter. It's just up to you on what you NEED the bino's to do for you. Most people can get by with Diamondbacks or upgrade to Vipers/BX4s and see all they need to see looking that quick. Bushnell and Nikon were massive back in the day - all glass is better than it was.

For a spotter - same thing. There is some huge differences. For most though - it's hard to beat going with a 1st gen 85mm Razor for under $1k vs a $3k swaro. You could buy a rifle AND spotter for less than a swaro. If you are concerned that it's a 202" buck vs a 195" and have to know.. ok. If you are the type who can say "oh that's a good deer lets go shoot him", then your needs are different.

If your optics make you a living (guide) or you just can pee money because you have a great job or high disposable income, by all means. If you are what some call "an average joe" hunter (I am)... don't strap yourself financially.


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