# Rivalry is dead.



## GaryFish

Well, I have to vent a little bit here about the rivalry. 

When BYU and Utah took off in different directions with the independent thing and Pac-12 thing, I figured, good enough. Both made their situation measurably better than the crap arrangement in the MWC. Good for both. But I figured the rivalry game would still go on. 

Well, this appears to be the last year. Which kind of sucks. No, it really sucks. I love the rivalry game. Heck, even as my Cougars were destroyed last year, I took it in and gave the utes their due. They were great that day. Which really sucked because I had to pretty much stay silent in mocking the utes as they lost other games to Washington and Colorado. I took my medicine. 

But I still held hope that the schools could keep the rivalry alive. But now Utah has chosen to end it. We have heard from Dr. Hill and Coach Whitt (two guys I have had a tremendous amount of respect for) how:
"Pac-12 is a tough schedule" 
"We really want more home games" 
"with such a tough conference schedule, we need a break with our non-conference games"
"With up to 5 conference road games, we really don't want to go home-and-home for our non-conference games". 

All were given as excuses for not scheduling the rivalry game. Well, last week when Utah announced that they scheduled a home-and-home with Michigan, it proved that there is no integrity, no honesty, no commitment to their own fans on behalf of the U. And I know of the coming contract with the Big 10 and Pac-12 - this deal is not part of that. It is prior to that. 

I commend the U for taking on Michigan for home and home. It sure beats watching New Mexico State or Idaho so in that way it is good. Heck, I only wish BYU would do the same. But taking it on is in direct contradiction to all the excuses given for not extending the rivalry. I hope Utah beats Michigan in those games, and I wish them success because it is only good for all three schools in the State when one or any of the others does well. But this deal shows absolute lack of honesty and integrity to anything coming out of the mouth of Hill and Whitt. But really - no true Ute fan will enjoy a victory over Michigan nearly as much as a victory over BYU. 

Can any Ute fan (and know guys, I have total respect for most of you on here) explain to me why Utah won't keep the rivalry going?


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## Mr Muleskinner

I am certain it will be back in some form at some point in time. Personally, year in and year out the rivalry has been wearing thin on me and I thought that it would be better to make it happen once every couple of years or change things up somehow. The alliance between the Big 10 and the PAC -12 is a big part of this and lets face it, the Utes will make a ton of money going to Ann Arbor and personally I can't wait to go there myself. I took my son to see the Utes play Notre Dame and it was something I will never forget.

I think you are incorrect about what a "True Ute" fan would want. I know many "True Ute" fans that think that the Holy War has grown very stale and look forward to the new rivalries. The BYU game is simply not the big game anymore. It is an opinion that many people share now.


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## coyoteslayer

I thought BYU quit playing football, Gary. I'm teasing. I was hoping that the rivalry games continued because it was one of the games that I looked forward to the most. I guess the Utes will end it with their 3rd straight victory against BYU. I personally think Michigan is a step up from BYU.

BYU's new rivalry is Utah State


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## Catherder

This Ute fan is bummed that the rivalry is taking a hiatus. I was hoping it would remain.



GaryFish said:


> Can any Ute fan (and know guys, I have total respect for most of you on here) explain to me why Utah won't keep the rivalry going?


I think you hit on some of the reasons, but I think the biggest one is simply this. The Pac 12 insists on having 9 conference games. They then have this upcoming agreement with the Big 10. It is simple (yet sad) arithmetic from there. They want 1 cupcake to start the season, they have an obligated game with the Big 10, that leaves only one more game. If they play the cougs every year, their basic schedule doesn't change at all. I think they want to have more variety on their sked and maybe keep their OOC schedule easier as well.

Personally, I wish that the PAC 12 would be like the SEC, play 8 conference games and load up on 3-4 cupcakes to pad their resume for a bowl (maybe play one tough OOC game). If this happened, the rivalry would be on every year again.

Maybe a break would also help some of the boorish behavior on both sides of the rivalry as well. Maybe. :?:


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## JuddCT

GaryFish said:


> Can any Ute fan (and know guys, I have total respect for most of you on here) explain to me why Utah won't keep the rivalry going?


I'll take a stab at this...



GaryFish said:


> When BYU and Utah took off in different directions with the independent thing and Pac-12 thing, I figured, good enough. Both made their situation measurably better than the crap arrangement in the MWC. Good for both. But I figured the rivalry game would still go on.


First mistake was assuming both teams would go out of their way to continue the rivalry. There is too much bad blood in the last 20 years, both teams will do what is best for them.



GaryFish said:


> Well, this appears to be the last year. Which kind of sucks. No, it really sucks. I love the rivalry game. Heck, even as my Cougars were destroyed last year, I took it in and gave the utes their due. They were great that day. Which really sucked because I had to pretty much stay silent in mocking the utes as they lost other games to Washington and Colorado. I took my medicine.


We all had our embarrassing losses. I have a few excuses for the Washington game (although they aren't very good), I have no excuse for Colorado. Can't wait for the away trip this year. What a way to start a new rivalry, killing the one chance for the Utes to make it into the PAC 12 Title Game. :evil:



GaryFish said:


> But now Utah has chosen to end it.


Obviously we are both going to see this differently, while drinking either red or blue koolaid. Mmmm, delicious red koolaid. Setting the koolaid down I honestly can say Utah has done what is in their best interest. I would love to see the rivalry continue. That being said I'd love to see it on a every other year status (mainly giving us the needed extra home game due to the rotating PAC 12 schedule and home vs. away games). But once again I'm all for being selfish and I think it is okay.

At first I thought BYU and their fans were just jealous of the PAC12 invite and I enjoyed teasing them about dropping them from our schedule. While there is some jealousy, I can understand why playing Utah every year is important to BYU and their fans. Don't take this the wrong way, but I ranked the BYU game 8th out of 12 regular season games (this was pre-season). In other years it was always ranked 1 or 2 (depended on where/when we played TCU in most seasons). It just didn't mean as much as before.

On the other hand (while drinking my red koolaid) it appears that in BYU's eyes the Utah game last year was the 2nd-4th most anticipated game, right? I think as the years progress and BYU's schedule gets better you will understand a little more. This year I'd rate the BYU game 8th again (yes, right after Utah State and the ever improving Aggies). I'd bet the BYU fans would rank the Utah game around 3rd-5th behind ND and Boise State and perhaps after Washington State (Leach's return), Utah State (based on the last 2 years), and maybe Georgia Tech? I think we will be much closer in this opinion in years to come.



GaryFish said:


> Well, last week when Utah announced that they scheduled a home-and-home with Michigan, it proved that there is no integrity, no honesty, no commitment to their own fans on behalf of the U.


I'm sorry to say this, but you are 100% wrong. They SHOWED commitment, honesty, and integrity by doing what the fans wanted. I'd put the BYU rivalry on haitus any two years to get a home and home with Michigan. I don't even have to think about it for a second. BYU is not Michigan (neither is Utah). When a team like BYU or Utah has a chance to schedule a team like Michigan to a home and home you do it (i.e. Texas or ND, but I guess they aren't true home and home agreements).



GaryFish said:


> But really - no true Ute fan will enjoy a victory over Michigan nearly as much as a victory over BYU.


Once again, not true. A victory over Michigan in the Big House beats most BYU-Utah Rivalry games (c'mon, if BYU had beaten Texas last year it would have beaten out many of the rivalry games of old). This is due to the same fact I posted above. BYU is not Michigan (neither is Utah). It just means more.

Rivalries are great, and I love the Ute-BYU game as much (or even more than the next guy). However, it just isn't the same. What has changed? The PAC12 and the new found "respect" (please notice I put this in quotes on purpose) we are given. Don't worry, Gary Anderson and the Aggies have rekindled a rivalry of old (that most BYU fans forgot about, maybe this is how they felt when BYU dropped their rivalry and required 2-1s).


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## Chaser

The rivalry will never be over. Just taking a sabbatical. They will end up scheduling it again in the not too distant future. I think some have gotten tired of it, but I think this break will help it. And to be honest, I think the reason they didn't want to schedule it was because its a tougher game to win than Michigan. I mean no disrespect to Michigan, but we all know its anybody's game year in and year out when it comes to the rivalry. Even when one team is obviously better, the emotions of the matchup make it a winnable game for the lesser team.

Sad to see it go for two years, but I think it would be fun to see a post-season matchup of Utah and BYU. Perhaps on the BCS stage.


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## GaryFish

See, I don't fault Utah for taking the Michigan series. Heck, I'd love for my Cougs to do a home and home with them. Where I have the problem is 1. This home and home is NOT part of the Big 10-Pac 12 agreement. That doesn't start until 2017. This is an independent series. And 2. It flies in direct contradiction to every excuse given for NOT doing a home and home with BYU (want more home games, need a sure "win" game, tough conference schedule, etc....) Which leads to total dishonesty in what excuses were being given. And that is what I think sucks. And given the Big-10/Pac 12 contract that does start in 2017, this year will probably be the last rivalry game in the next 10 years. 

If Utah doesn't want to play BYU, then say it. Don't make up fake excuses. 

And I don't drink enough Kool-Aid to be in the "they are scared to play us" crowd. Reality tells such a different story. I do think BYU, year in and year out is at least as competitive as all of the Pac-12, save USC and Oregon. I don't like the nasty road the rivalry took with Urban Liar, but that is another story. It is among the best in the country. 

Looking now that the BYU - Utah State game will grow into THE in-state rivalry, and right now is the perfect time for that to happen. The turn-coat QB, split over the last two years, Utah State getting better with Anderson, all make for some good story lines. I hope BYU gives the Aggies the respect they deserve and turn it back into a home/home arrangement, instead of the 2/1, which is pretty bush league in my view. And that sucks.

And the more I've thought about the Pac-12 thing, I can honestly say I don't fault the Utes, nor am I jealous. The Pac-12 didn't slight BYU in favor of Utah. They slighted BYU in favor of Colorado. Which when you think about it, stings even worse. But the religious bigotry of Stanford is what it is (they are bigoted against all religion, not just the Mormons). 

For Ute fans - I hope you beat Michigan. Both times. The sad part though, is what Michigan alum lives next door so you can talk trash about it for a year? Believe me- it was fun to beat Ole' Miss last year, and Oklahoma a couple years ago. But nothing compares to a win over a rival when I can have fun with my red and blue neighbors regardless of the outcome.


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## Huge29

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I know many "True Ute" fans that think that the Holy War has grown very stale and look forward to the new rivalries.


Did you type that with a straight face? Are you referring to the conference imposed new rival of the buffaloes? Admit it, it is pretty funny how they have them poised.


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## JuddCT

Huge29 said:


> Mr Muleskinner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know many "True Ute" fans that think that the Holy War has grown very stale and look forward to the new rivalries.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you type that with a straight face? Are you referring to the conference imposed new rival of the buffaloes? Admit it, it is pretty funny how they have them poised.
Click to expand...

I personally look forward to the annual games with USC, UCLA, ASU and UA ahead of Colorado or BYU. However, the loss last year to Colorado has done a lot in my mind to make it more important.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Not a joking matter. The BYU game has grown old for me and MANY people that I know. I would rather play a lot of teams than the Y. It's fresh and entertaining. I am with Judd. Someday we will also be playing Ohio State. Lets see.....a road trip to Ann Arbor, the Horse Shoe or Provo? It's got to be Provo right? Uhhh Yea.......NOT. I could go without playing BYU for a while no problem. No problem at all.


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## GaryFish

So I'm hearing several Ute fans say "We don't care if we play BYU." Fair enough. I respect that. 

So, to the title of the thread, it is probably safe to say the rivalry between BYU and Utah is dead. 

With the commitments BYU has made in their long-term scheduling, could Boise State become the new rival? I think they have like a 12 year home/home thing set up with the blue donkeys. Of course, for a rivalry to exist, both teams have to be in position to win - something the Cougars haven't done against the Smurfees. 

Or will the new rival be the old rival with Utah State? The Aggies "almost beat" several really good teams last year. And they almost beat BYU again as well. Like I said before, maybe the timing is good right now to make that game a solid point in tradition. The tradition of playing it on Friday night the first weekend in October is fun. If it can go back to home/home, that would be even better. Maybe make a deal that if the Aggies win, BYU gives Utah State their colors back?


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## JuddCT

GaryFish said:


> So I'm hearing several Ute fans say "We don't care if we play BYU." Fair enough. I respect that.
> 
> So, to the title of the thread, it is probably safe to say the rivalry between BYU and Utah is dead.
> 
> With the commitments BYU has made in their long-term scheduling, could Boise State become the new rival? I think they have like a 12 year home/home thing set up with the blue donkeys. Of course, for a rivalry to exist, both teams have to be in position to win - something the Cougars haven't done against the Smurfees.
> 
> Or will the new rival be the old rival with Utah State? The Aggies "almost beat" several really good teams last year. And they almost beat BYU again as well. Like I said before, maybe the timing is good right now to make that game a solid point in tradition. The tradition of playing it on Friday night the first weekend in October is fun. If it can go back to home/home, that would be even better. Maybe make a deal that if the Aggies win, BYU gives Utah State their colors back?


The rivalry died the moment Utah was invited to the PAC and BYU went Indy. We will play in the future, just not every year. It can still be fun.

I really like to see a COUG rivalry against ND.


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## GaryFish

JuddCT said:


> I really like to see a COUG rivalry against ND.


I'd love that too, but WAAAAAYYYYY too much tradition for Notre Dame. Their rivals are Michigan and USC. BYU might think it is a rivalry, but it would only be in the eyes of Cougar Fans.


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## Huge29

I spoke to a true ewt fan today, the kind that bought season tickets in Provo every year the game was in Provo just to attend the one game. He is very upset over the ewts decision to break tradition and called Hank Hill pompous...


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## coyoteslayer

> I spoke to a true ewt fan today, the kind that bought season tickets in Provo every year the game was in Provo just to attend the one game. He is very upset over the ewts decision to break tradition and called Hank Hill pompous...


Of course you would find one. Not everyone thinks the same about the rivalry, but after last year beating and this year's blowout. There won't be much to say about BYU.

BYU will either have a rivalry against Utah State or New Mexico


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## GaryFish

The "we are so much better than you" argument from ute fan just doesn't hold water no matter how you look at it. If Utah truly believes they are THAT much better than BYU, then they keep saying they want to schedule "down" for their non-conference games, so BYU would be a great choice. Travel costs are low, the stadium will sell out, and it will give an upper hand in recruiting the same kids. And it simply isn't true anyway. In the years of the current coaches, the rivalry has been as close to even as it can be. Utah is up by 1 game right now.


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## coyoteslayer

GaryFish said:


> The "we are so much better than you" argument from ute fan just doesn't hold water no matter how you look at it. If Utah truly believes they are THAT much better than BYU, then they keep saying they want to schedule "down" for their non-conference games, so BYU would be a great choice. Travel costs are low, the stadium will sell out, and it will give an upper hand in recruiting the same kids. And it simply isn't true anyway. In the years of the current coaches, the rivalry has been as close to even as it can be. Utah is up by 1 game right now.


Utah will be up by two games this year and a 3 year winning streak. BYU has always been a tough team for the Utes to beat expect for 2011, 2008, 2004 where BYU got their butts kicked.

I doubt BYU will be nearly the caliber of football team with Riley leading the charge. BYU played a lot of cupcakes last year, but will tougher opponents then Riley's running game won't score the victory. I don't see Riley putting up high passing yards. I don't see him breaking any school records.


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## GaryFish

You are right on many counts CS. Who knows. BYU returns lots of starters on both sides of the ball. Time will tell. Riley is good and plays with lots of heart. But he's no record-breaking passer. He has senior tight ends this year, which will help him out. And he is THE guy through spring ball this year, which is HUGE in developing what he needs to develop. Of course, if our defense can't stop John White 3, it doesn't matter what Riley does.


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## fatbass

Removing my posts again? It takes a real man to do that, rather than reply.


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## Huge29

fatbass said:


> Removing my posts again? It takes a real man to do that, rather than reply.


I don't see where anyone's posts were removed; the last moderator action was myself deleting a spammer late last night. Another thread maybe??


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## fatbass

Then I'll repost and you can reply in the same humorous fashion. :mrgreen:

Y'all talkin' about midget fighting again?  :mrgreen:

[attachment=0:2803s3qv]nick-saban-crystal-football-2010jpg-fa4459f798dfaf4a_medium.jpg[/attachment:2803s3qv]


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## GaryFish

I'm not sure what happened to your original post on that Fatbass. My response to it is gone as well. I certainly didn't delete it. Huh.

What I said back at you is -

You've heard the saying "If all you have is a hammer, then everything you see is a nail"? Well, all we gots 'round dees parts is Cougars & yewts. So call it what you will!


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## fatbass

My apologies for pointing at you as the culprit. Apparently there were a few posts that got deleted during the UWN maintenance period.


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## GaryFish

Yea. No biggie. Its all good. You know I'd not delete a football trash talk post. Though, I really don't want to look at Saben's face. I only delete posts that shatter forum rules, and I leave a note behind on those. So its all good. 

And yes, there is some forum maintenance the last day or two and some posts have disappeared. We are working on it.


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## Huge29

GaryFish said:


> And yes, there is some forum maintenance the last day or two and some posts have disappeared. We are working on it.


Apparently, as servers were switched on Monday I think some posts made during about a two hour period were lost. Good thing you mentioned because we were not previously aware of it, but they are all gone now.


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## Catherder

fatbass said:


> Then I'll repost and you can reply in the same humorous fashion. :mrgreen:
> 
> Y'all talkin' about midget fighting again?  :mrgreen:
> 
> [attachment=0:n0lvtm03]nick-saban-crystal-football-2010jpg-fa4459f798dfaf4a_medium.jpg[/attachment:n0lvtm03]


Hey Fatbass, was that picture taken just before Bama "fumbled" the crystal football and smashed it to bits?

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... red-mishap


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## coyoteslayer

-_O- -_O- -_O- -_O-


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## JuddCT

I saw an article where Urban agrees with the crowd that wants to keep it going. He even said BYU and not TDS.


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## fatbass

Catherder said:


> fatbass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then I'll repost and you can reply in the same humorous fashion. :mrgreen:
> 
> Y'all talkin' about midget fighting again?  :mrgreen:
> 
> [attachment=0:1ns01v15]nick-saban-crystal-football-2010jpg-fa4459f798dfaf4a_medium.jpg[/attachment:1ns01v15]
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Fatbass, was that picture taken just before Bama "fumbled" the crystal football and smashed it to bits?
> 
> http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... red-mishap
Click to expand...

Yeah, but it's alright. We have a second one to fondle while the first one gets replaced. :mrgreen:


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## GaryFish

Coach McBride was on 1280 this morning and they asked him about the rivalry game. He said he'd like to see it keep going as either the first game of the season, or to create a "Utah Bowl Game" of sorts. If neither school makes it to a BCS bowl game, then they'd play each other in a bowl game that could alternate locations between RES and LES. He figured the gate from that game would dwarf what either school would get from a 2nd or 3rd tier bowl game, and the fans would be far more interested in something like that than the Crap-a-Kurkey Bowl against UTEP or Alamo Bowl against Long Beach State, or whatever crappy arrangements are there. Very interesting thought for sure - something I'd not even considered or thought about. 

And is it safe to say that there is no more beloved football figure in the State of Utah than Ronny Macbride? One class act and very good coach and just great guy. I'd pay good money to spend a day fishing or golfing with Ronny Mac and Lavell in the same group. That would be one great time.


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## GaryFish

fatbass said:


> Yeah, but it's alright. We have a second one to fondle while the first one gets replaced.


See, I figured they just broke it before the NCAA took it away from some kind of rules violation. In the SEC, if you're not cheatin', you're not tryin'!


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## fatbass

GaryFish said:


> fatbass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but it's alright. We have a second one to fondle while the first one gets replaced.
> 
> 
> 
> See, I figured they just broke it before the NCAA took it away from some kind of rules violation. In the SEC, if you're not cheatin', you're not tryin'!
Click to expand...

You must have a library of cook books for those sour grapes, Gary.


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## GaryFish

Ah, no sour grapes at all. Bama' done earned it last year. Heck of a ballclub. And if you are a TRUE SEC fan, your response to "if you're not cheatin', you're not tryin'!" would be "dang straight!


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## UtahJax

@ fatbass 

This is against all of my SEC beliefs but if you have not seen this you have to watch it, great song about scam Newton, WAR EAGLE!


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## UtahJax

Here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiL5UJmk ... ata_player


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## fatbass

GaryFish said:


> Ah, no sour grapes at all. Bama' done earned it last year. Heck of a ballclub. And if you are a TRUE SEC fan, your response to "if you're not cheatin', you're not tryin'!" would be "dang straight!


Darth Saban runs the tightest ship in college football. Bama is squeaky clean now. Until Saban took over, nothing would have surprised me.


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## GaryFish

Squeaky clean. That's funny stuff right there. EVERY national title contender has their skeletons. EVERY. Urban Liar left Florida before he got found out. Auburn, well, not much else to say there. Tressel at THE Ohio State was supposed to be doing things "the right way" and we know where that headed. Penn State? Biggest cover up of illegal behavior ever, by a program that was believed to be among the most ethical and best run ever. So tightest ship in college football? Perhaps the tightest lipped ship in college football. But I don't think for a second it is a clean program.


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## fatbass

Cleaner than BYU. Take that to the bank.


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## fatbass

UtahJax said:


> Here is the link
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiL5UJmk ... ata_player


Hahaha! Never gonna watch it. 8)


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## GaryFish

fatbass said:


> Cleaner than BYU. Take that to the bank.


Maybe. Maybe not. They are not a national championship contender. I do think it is cleaner now than it has ever been. I'm not sure there is any "clean" program anywhere. As long as there are kids playing college football, and boosters with cash, and volumes of NCAA rules, there will be hundred dollar handshakes and rules broken.

Quick story with NCAA rules. A few years ago, I was in charge of a scouting event, where we celebrated the success of several scout troops in our little corner of West Jordan. For the event, we usually brought in some kind of speaker. We had the idea to bring in a couple of college athletes that were Eagle Scouts, to talk about how their scouting experiences had helped them attain success on their chosen field. I contacted the athletic departments of both Utah and BYU. I got no response from Utah, but did get response from BYU. They said they would send me two student athletes. One kid was a scholarship long distance runner from Ohio, and the other a walk-on football player from West Jordan. Both were great kids and gave great messages to the boys. It was exactly what we hoped it would be. But before they came to speak, I had to fill out a hand full of forms answering how many boys would be there?, would there be any potential recruits? Would there be any food served? Am I a booster? I had to attest that I wouldn't give the boys anything - no thank you certificate, no scout patch for helping us celebrate scouting, no gas money, or even a McDonalds gift card so they could get a burger on the way home. I had to disclose that we'd be serving cookies at the end of the event, but that was OK because they were available to all that attended, and not just the student athletes. All the forms were official NCAA forms, so I'm sure I would have had the same things if the kids had come from Utah. (I sincerely wish I could have gotten some kids from Utah as well, because of the quality of kids that go there. It would have made the even better).

But my point is, it was way over the top what we had to go through just to have a couple of college freshmen talk to a group of boy scouts. Last job in the world I'd want to have would be compliance officer for a university - any university.


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## fatbass

I agree 100%, Gary. NCAA rules are a mare's nest of hilariously contorted rules and unless a university can afford its own KGB to watch the student-athletes, there is a big chance that rules will be broken. 18-22 year-olds aren't exactly known for great judgement either.

Peace out! Roll Tide and Go Cougs!


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## GaryFish

Its official. Rivalry is dead. Dr. Hill announced it today.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/54463 ... y.html.csp

My favorite quote for NOT scheduling BYU:


> "I can't expect us to play 11 really, really difficult games in a season," Hill said at his annual media briefing.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

@GF and FB-
I attended three local universities and I'll not say where this happened...

My roommates in college all played on the basketball team. There was a local booster who paid players $100 an hour for labor, anytime, in cash. All my roommates had to do was knock on the door. They'd put in a 5 hour day and walk away with $500. 

Another scam most of the athletes were running was selling textbooks. They got free textbooks from the bookstore as part of their athletic scholarship. They would sign up for the maximum allowable number of credits, receive all the books for those classes, then drop a bunch of classes and sell the textbooks at a discount to students.

These athletes did not have to eat in the cafeteria like everybody else on scholarship. They ate at the fancy restaurant on campus, the one patrons paid upwards of $30 a plate for. The athletes could eat at the restaurant every day if they wanted to.

My roommates got bags full of free clothing from Reebok. Shoes, shorts, socks, pants, shirts, hoodies, hats, whatever... Reebok was the team sponsor and the guys got whatever they wanted. Free. 

My basketball playing roommates lived the high life in college. EVERYTHING got paid for or taken care of for them. This at one of our local universities. 

As to the rivalry- I don't know why the Utes are afraid to play BYU, but that certainly seems to be the case. They are letting fear dictate their schedule.


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## Mr Muleskinner

had to laugh at the fear comment Birddogger. Utah leads the series 55-34-4. Utah has won 12 of the last 19 and 7 of the last 10.

Utah also plays in a conference that has a conference championship that has nothing to do with non-conference games.

Fact is there are other teams that bring more to the table for recruiting and provide more national exposure than does BYU. Which in turn brings more money.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> had to laugh at the fear comment Birddogger.





> Dr. Hill:
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/54463 ... y.html.csp
> 
> "I can't expect us to play 11 really, really difficult games in a season," Hill said at his annual media briefing.


Quivering. Quaking. F-E-A-R.


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## Mr Muleskinner

yea so they schedule a home and away with Michigan. Hill was doing nothing more than stroking the egos of BYU and trying to take away the sting.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

I heard the Utes are good at dodgeball. 

Hey, is that a duck? Nope, just a Ute. 

What do Utes eat for Thanksgiving, chicken or duck? 

... :lol:


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## JuddCT

BirdDogger said:


> I heard the Utes are good at dodgeball.
> 
> Hey, is that a duck? Nope, just a Ute.
> 
> What do Utes eat for Thanksgiving, chicken or duck?
> 
> ... :lol:


We used to eat kitty kats, I'm tired of the taste as we seem to really burn them as of late. 

I don't know why you guys expected a different outcome. I agree with Coach Whitt, the rivalry is not bigger than the Utes just like it isn't bigger than the Y.

It sure does seem to matter more to the Y and their fans. Hmmm, maybe that has to do with their independent situation. Of course it is easy to say you would schedule the U if the tides were turned and the U was independent and the Y was in a big conference. However, recent history has shown the complete opposite. Take a look at how Utah State was treated. The "rivalry" wasn't important to one of the teams and it transitioned to 2 for 1 whenever it was appealing to the "bigger conference team". Utah did the same so the Y is not alone.


----------



## GaryFish

Sure it matters more to BYU right now. Absolutely right. 

But still. Utefan tell me this. What was the biggest win Utah had last year? What was the score of that game? Tell me Utah was more excited about beating Montana State than BYU. Because that in reality, is what you are trading here. It isn't the Michigan instead of BYU. It is Northern Colorado, Weber State, and Montana State that you are getting instead of BYU. 

BYU is at least as good of an opponent as any team in the 12 Pac except for Oregon and USC. And if BYU is such a push over, that seems to be what Hill wants for the Utes, so why not schedule the game? 

And Utah fan tell me this - what loss means more to you - losing to Colorado or USC last year, or to Max Hall twice on final drives? Which of those losses still hurts and/or annoys you? What win means more - beating UCLA? or picking off Max Hall 5 times? Beating Washington State, or making John Beck cry? 

It is very true that BYU has far more to gain with the game and Utah has nothing to gain. But the game you replace it with will absolutely mean less to Utah fan than the rivalry game. Take it from this Cougar Fan - meaningless opponents are not fun. I sat through games against Idaho, Idaho State, and New Mexico State last year. It sucks. And those are the games that Hill is replacing the rivalry game with. Enjoy it.


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## fatbass

Hey, y'all!

There is an infinite amount of win in this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2wADH-A ... r_embedded


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## Catherder

GaryFish said:


> Sure it matters more to BYU right now. Absolutely right.


Indeed. It does seem that cougarfan is the most bent out of shape right now. I can sympathize to a point. Holmoe now has to call Moscow or Las Cruces and see if he can get a couple more prime dates with the Vandals or NMSU to complete the cougs slate. My sincere condolences to cougarfan for that. However, more of it is cougarfan sour grapes that the Utes have moved on up.

Now to answer your questions.

1.


GaryFish said:


> BYU is at least as good of an opponent as any team in the 12 Pac except for Oregon and USC.


That's the problem, the Pac-12 slate has 9 tough games plus they scheduled those cupcakes from Ann Arbor. Virtually no BCS team in the country plays a non conference and conference slate of 10 or 11 tough games. A few exceptions have occurred, and they usually wear down. USC or Oregon is now just as big of game to the Utes as the BYU game was but the stakes are much higher now. You know, that Rose bowl thing? Ask Fatbass if Alabama and their buddies in the SEC schedule 4 tough OOC games or if they dine heavily on cupcakes? It works for them and almost every other BCS conference.

2.


GaryFish said:


> Utah fan tell me this - what loss means more to you - losing to Colorado or USC last year, or to Max Hall twice on final drives? Which of those losses still hurts and/or annoys you?


The truth is, the Colorado game hurts the most. Sorry, Gary. Winning the division and playing in the conference championship game would have validated all that the U has accomplished over the past decade. They whiffed against CU and blew it and we still have to listen to some yapping whiners complaining about the U's accomplishments. Losing to Mad Max didn't hurt that much until he started running his mouth off, and then it was a different kind of hurt (or rage)? Since the CU game hurts like it does, that could be a sign that the rivalry really has changed.

3.


GaryFish said:


> Take it from this Cougar Fan - meaningless opponents are not fun. I sat through games against Idaho, Idaho State, and New Mexico State last year. It sucks.


It would be a valid point if our whole schedule were filled with such teams, but with the PAC-12, we are guaranteed a quality sked whether the play the cougs or not. BYU made its decision to go independent and play "hard to get" to potential conference suitors. You now have to live with the good and bad of that decision. I hope the cougs do eventually improve their situation.

I also hope that the rivalry can come back in the future.


----------



## GaryFish

One thing that Utah won't acknowledge, and that is that the Pac 12 isn't 9 tough games. Last year, there were 3 good Pac 12 teams, and Utah didn't play 2 of them. So to say that they have 9 tough conference games is ignorant at best and just plain blind to reality at worst. 

As for other BCS schools playing tough non conference games. USC still plays Notre Dame every year. So does Michigan. Florida plays Florida State. Texas has played Ohio State in home and homes. USC had Ohio State and Notre Dame in the same year and you never heard them complaining. 

And really, if BYU is such a cupcake, then why not play it for the game you "schedule down" as a break from your oh so tough run against WSU, OSU, and Colorado?


----------



## JuddCT

GaryFish said:


> Utefan tell me this. What was the biggest win Utah had last year?


Biggest in terms of points? BYU. :lol:

Biggest in terms of "in the moment"? Washington State or Georgia Tech. Who was a tougher opponent out of those three? Who knows, I can say that both Washington State and Georgia Tech played better against us than BYU.



GaryFish said:


> Tell me Utah was more excited about beating Montana State than BYU. Because that in reality, is what you are trading here. It isn't the Michigan instead of BYU. It is Northern Colorado, Weber State, and Montana State that you are getting instead of BYU.


What about Utah State? I'd trade the BYU game for Utah State (our original rival) and it appears the U is placing BYU and Utah State on the same level. Not a problem in my eyes due to our conference schedule (once again I'm not sure you will see this from the same point of view). Yeah there are teams in the PAC12 that are down right bad/awful. But I guarantee the majority of those teams have better athletic ability than BYU or Utah on most days. This can translate to one off wins that cannot be explained (especially when these teams are beating each other up weekly in the PAC).



GaryFish said:


> BYU is at least as good of an opponent as any team in the 12 Pac except for Oregon and USC. And if BYU is such a push over, that seems to be what Hill wants for the Utes, so why not schedule the game?


Gary. C'mon. You guys really do have an unexplainable inferiority complex. Just because the Utes won't schedule BYU every year doesn't mean BYU is a bad team. Take it as respect. I wish for one day the sides would be flipped (BYU in Pac12 and Utah Independent). Maybe then we would understand each better.



GaryFish said:


> And Utah fan tell me this - what loss means more to you - losing to Colorado or USC last year, or to Max Hall twice on final drives? Which of those losses still hurts and/or annoys you? What win means more - beating UCLA? or picking off Max Hall 5 times? Beating Washington State, or making John Beck cry?


The Colorado loss last year was bad. No hiding that. USC wasn't so bad as it was in the Collesium and we had a chance to tie (nobody gave us a chance). The two losses to Max Hall were just as bad as Colorado last year. In all three of those games the Utes made terrible mistakes and allowed the other team to capitalize and win. They all hurt, but Colorado is the freshest wound so that wins.

To answer you other question, the PAC12 games just mean more now (regarding beating UCLA or Washington State over BYU). Our conference games are just more important due to the format of when the can be played (beginning of the year) and getting to the Rose Bowl (I know it is a lofty goal, but you should still have goals).



GaryFish said:


> It is very true that BYU has far more to gain with the game and Utah has nothing to gain.


Utah gains in-state recruiting and trash talk among fans. BYU gains the same along with the chance to say we beat a PAC team (along with not having to fill their schedule with a lot of WAC/MWC teams or deal with other BCS schools forcing 2 for 1 games on them). I'd say let's play 2 for 1, but we all know that is degrading and shouldn't be the case.



GaryFish said:


> But the game you replace it with will absolutely mean less to Utah fan than the rivalry game. Take it from this Cougar Fan - meaningless opponents are not fun. I sat through games against Idaho, Idaho State, and New Mexico State last year. It sucks. And those are the games that Hill is replacing the rivalry game with. Enjoy it.


Why not give Hill some time to fill out the schedule and then we can judge him. I know what he said about scheduling, but other opportunities arise and he might surprise us. I can see how the WAC teams suck especially when you have as many as BYU did last year. That is not a problem for the Utes due to conference scheduling where every game means more. BYU chose Independence and I don't blame them as it was the best option. But don't expect the Utes to keep things the same just because BYU NEEDS the game more.

Once again, it is hard to diss the "Bad" PAC teams until you have to play them week in and week out. I learned my lesson last year. Until you've sat through that as a fan it is hard to judge the other 3 out of conference games without bias.


----------



## JuddCT

GaryFish said:


> One thing that Utah won't acknowledge, and that is that the Pac 12 isn't 9 tough games. Last year, there were 3 good Pac 12 teams, and Utah didn't play 2 of them. So to say that they have 9 tough conference games is ignorant at best and just plain blind to reality at worst.


It isn't IGNORANT for a fan from BYU to judge the remaining 9 PAC12 teams without playing them week in and out in a conference? Interesting. Once again, I don't expect you to understand as BYU's schedule was made up of a lot of WAC teams that were really bad.



GaryFish said:


> As for other BCS schools playing tough non conference games. USC still plays Notre Dame every year. So does Michigan. Florida plays Florida State. Texas has played Ohio State in home and homes. USC had Ohio State and Notre Dame in the same year and you never heard them complaining.


Here is where we agree. I'd love for the Utes to schedule Ohio State/Michigan/Florida/Florida State/ND as much as we can. I'd take two of those games every year and drop BYU completely. BYU is not on the same level as these teams, bad example.



GaryFish said:


> And really, if BYU is such a cupcake, then why not play it for the game you "schedule down" as a break from your oh so tough run against WSU, OSU, and Colorado?


I just wish BYU fans would stop with the inferiority complex. Once again, take it as respect and be happy. The world does not revolve around BYU and neither does the UofU. Why can't you just let the U schedule who they want and only worry about BYU?


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## Catherder

GaryFish said:


> the Pac 12 isn't 9 tough games. Last year, there were 3 good Pac 12 teams, and Utah didn't play 2 of them. So to say that they have 9 tough conference games is ignorant at best and just plain blind to reality at worst.


 :roll: Compared to the pile of excrement the cougars played last year, the Pac-12 sked the U played last year might as well have been the NFC East. Give me a break. The PAC-12 has consistently been noted for parity, unlike some conferences with a "Big 2" and a little 10. It is ignorant of cougarfan to rant that a PAC-12 sked could be compared to what we used to play in the MWC or schedules the cougs have planned in their near future.



GaryFish said:


> As for other BCS schools playing tough non conference games. USC still plays Notre Dame every year. So does Michigan. Florida plays Florida State. Texas has played Ohio State in home and homes. USC had Ohio State and Notre Dame in the same year and you never heard them complaining.


1. Michigan didn't play out of the state of Michigan last year until mid October.
2. I believe Florida hasn't played an OOC game out of state in over a decade. 
3. Yeah, Ohio State played Texas and USC in home and homes, (and Utah is playing Michigan in a home and home  )but I guarantee that the Buckeyes had 3 other directional Ohio schools on the rest of their OOC schedule, all at home.
4. All these schools except USC played only *8* conference games.
5. Utah is *not* USC.

Keep venting Gfish, you'll feel better eventually, but I'm done for the evening.


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## GaryFish

So there are two schools of thought among Ute Fan on why they won't play BYU:

- Utah is so much better than BYU, they have "outgrown" them. Utah is above them and should not be playing them.

and

- Utah plays such a tough conference schedule, there is no way they can handle another tough game by playing BYU. 


The problem with both of these positions, is they both make Utah look foolish. On the first, Utah claims they NEED cupcake teams, but won't play down to BYU. On the second, they are among the big boys and are afraid to lose to BYU. 

Neither position holds water in my view. And no, its not sour grapes over Utah joining the 12 Pac over BYU. I am happy for Utah. It is a good thing. They did what was best for them. Were it not for the religious bigotry of Stanford against any and all religious schools, BYU would have come on as the playing partner over CU. And BYU's position as an independent is still better than the MWC and the stupid MTN contract. Both schools are better off than before. And the independent thing, I believe, will become a model and with the new play-off format, conferences mean nothing in securing a spot in the final 4. So I think we'll see many top shelf programs follow what BYU has done in setting up their own TV networks, and TV contracts (Texas is almost there, Notre Dame has been there for years, and Florida and Ohio State won't be far behind). This will greatly free up these schools to play whomever they want, and that will only help BYU. But that is another discussion.

But back to the rivalry being dead. I don't fault Utah for being part of the Pac 12. I wish BYU was too. I don't fault Utah for scheduling Michigan. I hope BYU will schedule teams like that as well. What I fault Utah for is talking out their rears regarding the rivalry game all because they want easy non-conference wins, and are essentially throwing out one of the top rivalries in college football, so they can beat a D2 opponent. Nothing more. Nothing less. Cherry pick whatever years you want to include to show your team is superior. I could do the same. But the bottom line is they are two very good, and very evenly matched programs, and for the last 20 years, has easily been the most exciting and invigorating game for both teams every year. And that is going away. And that sucks.


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## uintahiker

Gotta wonder how it will affect recruiting. Taking a few years off in my opinion only strengthens the Utes. Play Michigan, or play Idaho State. Hmm. Is it even a contest? A few years of that, and the recruits that were on the fence will be falling the Utes way even more. 

That said, I'll miss the rivalry. It wasn't even the same last year in September.


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## Mr Muleskinner

BYU

Aug 30	Washington St.	8:15 pm
Sep 8	Weber State	1:00 pm
Sep 15	@Utah	8:00 pm
Sep 20	@Boise St.	7:00 pm
Sep 29	Hawaii	6:00 pm
Oct 5	Utah St.	8:15 pm
Oct 13	Oregon St.	
Oct 20	@Notre Dame	1:30 pm
Oct 27	@Georgia Tech	
Nov 10	Idaho	
Nov 17	@San Jose St.	2:00 pm
Nov 24	@New Mexico St.	1:30 pm

UTAH

Aug 30	Northern Colorado	5:15 pm
Sep 7	@Utah St.	6:00 pm
Sep 15	BYU	8:00 pm
Sep 22	@Arizona St.	
Oct 4	USC	7:00 pm
Oct 13	@UCLA	
Oct 20	@Oregon St.	
Oct 27	California	
Nov 3	Washington St.	
Nov 10	@Washington	
Nov 17	Arizona	
Nov 23	@Colorado	1:00 pm

In terms of difficulty of schedule, it is not even close. 9 of Utah's games are set in stone each year and soon it will be even more with the alliance with the Big 10.

BYU fans in general have had a bad taste in their collective mouths since the day that Utah was asked to join the PAC 12. Lots of sour grapes. I have no doubt that we have not seen the last of the "Holy War" and once a 2 year hiatus is taken it will come back stronger than ever.


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## Catherder

GaryFish said:


> - Utah is so much better than BYU, they have "outgrown" them. Utah is above them and should not be playing them.
> 
> and
> 
> - Utah plays such a tough conference schedule, there is no way they can handle another tough game by playing BYU.


No Ute fan here is agreeing about your #1, you seem to be the only one saying that. Definite yes on #2 however.



GaryFish said:


> The problem with both of these positions, is they both make Utah look foolish.


In your opinion, and we will have to agree to disagree. If you call the U foolish, then you would also have to call almost every other BCS team foolish as well that incorporates the same strategy (which is almost all of them). If you want to do that, then fair enough. I realize that it comes at a bad time for the cougs because of their scheduling situation, but that is the peril of being independent. If they can't resolve such glitches, then maybe they need to revisit their decision.

Again, if the Pac-12 went to 8 conference games, the rivalry would be back on, every year. And yes, I will miss the rivalry game as much as you.


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## coyoteslayer

I think the reason why Garyfish has so much sour grapes over the Utes not scheduling BYU is because without the Utes then BYU's schedule is a yawner for most fans. Last year BYU tried to give away a lot of tickets because no one wanted to come to watch BYU versus Idaho, BYU versus San Jose and every other cupcake on their schedule. Many BYU fans got tired of watching.

The only season why most BYU fans bought season tickets was to watch BYU versus the Utes. Now that this won't be happening for a few years then ticket sales will go down to an all time low.

BYU hated the fact that while BYU was playing Idaho then the Utes were playing USC, Washington, Cali, etc. 

I also believe the 54-10 beatdown took a toll on BYU fans. Plus they all had to join gold's gym to lose weight from eating all those turnovers.

Why does BYU care anyways because football is #5 on their important list.

Garyfish BYU versus NM will be a real nail biter.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> I think the reason why Garyfish has so much sour grapes over the Utes not scheduling BYU is because without the Utes then BYU's schedule is a yawner for most fans.


There's some truth to that statement for sure. That's not all it, though. This rivalry was one of the longest running contests in the country, having never missed a year since WWII. It will be sad to lose that tradition and history.


----------



## Huge29

Catherder said:


> That's the problem, the Pac-12 slate has 9 tough games plus they scheduled those cupcakes from Ann Arbor.


08/30/12 vs. Northern Colorado 
09/07/12 at Utah State 7-6
09/15/12 vs. Brigham Young 10-3
09/22/12 at Arizona State 6-7
10/04/12 vs. USC 10-2
10/13/12 at UCLA 6-7
10/20/12 at Oregon State 3-9
10/27/12 vs. California 7-6
11/03/12 vs. Washington State 4-8
11/10/12 at Washington 7-6
11/17/12 vs. Arizona 4-8
11/23/12 at Colorado 3-10
I assume that you were speaking in general terms as I only see two games that anyone with a brain would argue as tough, since the Y is not tough as indicated by all ewt fans. Those are last year's records to the right. 9 tough games requires some very extreme fuzzy math, don't flatter yourself. The PAC 12 is the most over rated conference of which I am aware, certainly an upgrade, but the argument of 9 tough games repeated so often simply holds no water. I am sure the next line becomes that they are beating each other up, I saw that second hand with the mighty two win Buffs at the end of last season... They can certainly do as they wish, but at least be honest rather than repeating the same mistruth over and over until it becomes the new fairy tale reality. Take out the Y from that schedule and I think the Utes would be at the very top of at least one pole-that of the weakest non conference schedule in the nation, just what they are after. :roll:


----------



## Catherder

Huge29 said:


> I assume that you were speaking in general terms as I only see two games that anyone with a brain would argue as tough, since the Y is not tough as indicated by all ewt fans.


Typical of you to not look at the years in question. For 2014-15, kindly plug Oregon, Stanford, and Michigan in and tell me how weak the schedule is, Mr. fuzzy math. :roll: As for the Pac-12 being overrated, I'm not sure what you are comparing things to, but most metrics I've seen rank it 2nd,3rd, or occasionally 4th on weak years in BCS conferences. Funny, couagrfans only started disparaging the Pac-12 when they got snubbed by them. As for being intellectually honest, tell me you and about every cougarfan alive wouldn't do just about anything to be in such an overrated conference, especially as you enjoy a fall afternoon at LES with the faithful watching the cougs vanquish Idaho State.



Huge29 said:


> Take out the Y from that schedule and I think the Utes would be at the very top of at least one pole-that of the weakest non conference schedule in the nation, just what they are after. :roll:


Any OOC schedule that has Michigan in it will not be the "weakest" of anything. If you want to look at "weakest", how about the cougs November sked. :O•-: :roll:


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## Mr Muleskinner

Huge, one major problem with your argument is the fact that the PAC 12 plays a round robin schedule. As of right now you have 12 teams playing a minimum of 9 games against each other. When you do this it becomes comparable to the average win/loss record in the NFL, which is 50%. No fuzzy math at all. (for every win there is a loss). The Pac 12 played 108 games against each other last year. It would stand to reason that aside from any non-conference games their would be a combined record of 54-54. That would be an average win/loss record of 4.5/4.5 for each team.

Take a look at the non-conference records and the opponents that the PAC-12 plays non-conference.

Some interesting notes:

1. In the BCS Era (beginning in 1998), the SEC and Pac-12 are the only two conferences with winning records against the other BCS conferences. The SEC is 127-112 (.531), while the Pac-10 is 117-106 (.524).

2. The Pac-12 is the only conference that has a losing record against _less than_ two of the other conferences. It's only deficit is against the Big 12 and it's a narrow one (30-32). The SEC has losing records against both the Big East (14-19) and the Pac-10 (9-12).

3. Of the BCS conferences, the Pac-12 has played the fewest games (38) against I-AA opponents-and it's not even close. The other conferences: Big 12 (86), ACC (85), SEC (78), Big East (66), Big Ten (56).

4. Since 1998, the SEC has won 467 out-of-conference games. A whopping 340 of those wins-or 73 percent-have come against either non-BCS-conference or 1-AA opponents. The Big 12 is even worse in this regard, with 76 percent of its OOC wins coming against such foes. The other conferences by comparison: ACC (.608), Pac-12 (.632), Big East (.682), Big Ten (.672).

Funny Math? Those are facts.


----------



## GaryFish

You make a decent point about the 2014 and 2015 schedules Catherder. I'm not sure Stanford will be where they were with Luck throwing the ball. They seem to be a solid team, with occasional flashes. Which I think is most of the Pac 12. Heck, it wan't that long ago Washington State was in the Rose Bowl. Looking at the Pac 12 though, USC and Oregon are clearly the top dogs. And the others seem to swing with the pendulum. Clearly, it is better than the mercy flush teams BYU played last year. That contract for WAC bottom dwellers was horrible. It is our bed, and we are sleeping in it. 

But to the point. 2014 and 2015 WILL be very tough years for the Utes. I see why they don't want to play BYU as well. And the teams are on schedule to play in 2016. Beyond that, who knows if college football will remotely resemble anything we have right now. Look 4 years back and think of all the changes. Looking past 2016 is anyone's guess. 

Until then, life will go on. When it all comes down to it, it hits on what Dr. Hill said. The Utes don't want to play BYU because they aren't good enough to handle a really really tough schedule. His words, not mine. It is what it is.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Dr. Hill is taken slightly out of context there I think. Show me the quote where those are his words.


----------



## GaryFish

> "What we have to do is make sure we don't come close to overscheduling," he said.
> 
> In Hill's mind, playing both Michigan and BYU in the same years would have put the Utes in that situation.
> 
> "I can't expect us to play 11 really, really difficult games in a season," he said.


From the Salt Lake Tribune.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/54463 ... y.html.csp

Spin it however you want. Scheduling BYU, he considers, is over scheduling.


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## GaryFish

Here is an interview Dr. Hill did on the radio yesterday.
http://1280thezone.com/index.php/audio/ ... h_byu_game


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

No spin needed. I am not the one that felt the need to intentionally misquote somebody. Fact is Utah replaced BYU with Michigan, not some podunk program. Michigan brings far more in terms of money, recruiting, national exposure, excitement to the fan base(for this fan anyhow), and if the new playoff system includes any matrix on strength of schedule, it will undoubtedly enhance that as well. Personally, I feel that no explanation was needed at all.

I am not seeing too many Ute fans that are upset about this. Dr. Hill could have just as easily said that Utah had far more to gain by playing Michigan. He would have been correct. BYU fans need to realize that these are indeed two seperate schools. It seems to me that some BYU fans are having a bit of an identity crisis right now. I think that BYU is going to have a very tough time going the way of Notre Dame.


----------



## Catherder

Enough of this bickering, how about a question I heard on sports radio yesterday on the way home from work.

"What opponent(s) would you like to see your team (Utes or Cougs) schedule for a home and home that would be worth setting aside the rivalry game for 2 years?

Obviously, one answer for the U is Michigan. I would also say a home-and-home with Urban and Ohio St. would do it for me too. Maybe a home and home with Fatbass and his Alabama Crimson Tide. 

What do you think? Utes or Cougs?


----------



## GaryFish

Utah has two open dates for the 2014 and 2015 seasons. But won't schedule BYU for those years because they don't want to "over schedule." So they will be replacing BYU with Podunk State. (You know, all the teams BYU plays in November!). 

And on that issue - Utah paid Utah State $500,000 to cancel the contract they had to play them in those years. That tells me that Whitt is scared to play Anderson. But that's just me. 

A few other thoughts here.

Playing BYU for a non-conference game has absolutely no impact on the Utes winning a Pac 12 title or going to the Rose Bowl. So any argument that it impacts their goals is wrong.

Fresno State used to have the motto "Any team, any time, any where." And they earned a ton of respect for it. It made me sick to my stomach a few years ago when Bronco talked about "scheduling down," referring to 2003, when BYU played USC, Georgia Tech, Stanford, Notre Dame and BSU for their non-conference games. I thought it was chicken *bleep* when he did it. And it is chicken when any coach/AD does it. Any school, including my own Cougars, ought to be willing to play any team. If you are better, then you show it. If not, then you deal with that as well. 

Hill laid it out pretty clear. He said that the Utes can't handle 11 really really tough games. Which if that's the case, then he is probably right. 

And speaking to BYUs schedule - it sucks. It is embarrassing the teams we are playing in November. It is horrible. It is a mercy flush. But the reason is because better teams won't play BYU. Not because BYU is ducking anyone because they don't want to play really really tough games.


----------



## GaryFish

GREAT Question Catherder. 

BYU has gone to Tuscaloosa before, and lost. Bama was supposed to come back to Provo but cancelled. Whimps. I'd love to see how the Tide rolls at elevation. In November. 

Nebraska is the team I've always wanted to see come to Provo for home/home. Dating back to Osborne and Edwards, I always thought the ultimate running team vs. the ultimate passing team would be a fun game. We go to Lincoln in 2014, but I'd love to see home and home.

Florida State was a great home and home. Even though my Cougs got killed, the FSU fans were great. That one was fun. 

Penn State was another great one we did. It was great seeing the Cougs crush them in Provo.

Texas was another fun home/home. I'm looking forward to the Longhorn return to Provo. Last time they came to Provo (1988 - first BYU game I ever went to) turned out really well for us. 

Oklahoma would be a fun one. We've beat them the other two times we've played, but those were on "neutral sites". Home and home would be good. 

Utah State - BYU needs to get off their 2/1 high horse and go fair up with home/home with the Aggies. Aggies deserve that respect and I'm don't like the disrespect shown them. 

For Utes - 
Alabama - I'd love to see Utah play them again. After killing them in the bowl game, I'd love to see the rematch with home/home. As with BYU, see how the tide rolls at 4,500 ft. elevation.

Oklahoma - Utah has always had pretty good defensive backfield, and with Stoops' wide open attack and speedy receivers, I think it would be a good game on match ups.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

[And speaking to BYUs schedule - it sucks. It is embarrassing the teams we are playing in November. It is horrible. It is a mercy flush. But the reason is because better teams won't play BYU.]

Exactly....Teams don't have a ton to gain by playing BYU. It is a tough win, if you beat them fine, but it the current system a win against them doesn't exactly sway voters thinking that it was great win. Whether it was home or away. I'll stand by my comment that Utah replaced BYU with Michigan for two years. I really don't see much of an argument there. It is actually what happened. Michigan was added, BYU was subtracted. Could Utah replace a podunk team with BYU? Sure. Will they gain a ton from it. I doubt it. Fact is the schedule is tough enough and got tougher with Michigan. Michigan is a step up.

With regard to the question posed on the radio. PAC 12 teams aside, here are the teams that I would have no problem replacing BYU with so long as it is a home and away:

Oklahoma
Texas
Michigan
Nebraska
Ohio State
Wisconsin
Florida
Alabama
LSU
Georgia
Tennessee
Notre Dame

Oh yea the Oakland Raiders as well.


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## coyoteslayer

> It is horrible. It is a mercy flush. But the reason is because better teams won't play BYU. Not because BYU is ducking anyone because they don't want to play really really tough games.


I don't believe teams are scared of playing BYU. A win against BYU doesn't mean much for most teams. BYU 54-10 defeat last year went down in football bloopers. Garyfish, if BYU had a chance to schedule another team instead of playing the Utes and make more money do it plus more national exposure then wouldn't you give BYU the thumbs up? If you were in favor of it then why do you have a problem with the Utes doing the same thing?


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## GaryFish

BYU already has national exposure. They had more nationally televised games than any other team last year. (And yes, I know they weren't exactly prime time, but when ESPN carries your games, it means you WILL be on SportsCenter in addition to the telecast). BYU already plays in, and against teams from every timezone. Their exposure exceeds Utah's right now. That is not arguable. (whether or not exposure for beating up Idaho or New Mexico State is a good thing is what is arguable.)

As for income, BYU already gets more TV money for every single home game, than either BYU or Utah got for their bowl games last year. Tickets for the rivalry game already cost twice what any other game during the year cost. The rivalry game generates more interest among fans, and among boosters, than any other game. BYU has played the marquee teams consistently for the better part of 30 years. So while a Michigan game would be very welcome, it is not the novelty it is right now for Utah. In an either/or situation, I'd take the rivalry game over any other big name opponent. And I've sat in LES to watch my Cougars beat Texas, Texas A & M, (missed the Miami game - on my mission), Penn State, and Notre Dame. And I've been there when we got pounded by Florida State. I was in RES when the Utes tore down the goal posts because they won for the first time in 10 years. I was at the first 34-31 game. And I was there last year when John White killed us. Of all the rivalry games I've been to, I think Utah has won more of them. And I'd still take them over the big names I've also witnessed. 

When I see Ute fans tearing down a goal post or planting a flag on the 50 for a win over ANYONE else, then I'll believe those opponents mean more than playing BYU.

And slayer - you are exactly right about why teams won't play BYU. A win does nothing for them, and loss will only hurt them. There is a very long list of teams that have found that out with their trip to Provo.

So to answer your question Slayer, if I had to make a choice, I would take home/home against Utah over every other team in the country. Besides, BYU will play Utah AND schedule other "really really tough teams" in the same year. Always has, and always will. 

And a parting shot - if Utah did indeed drop BYU so they could play Michigan, then who are they going to play with those other two open dates?


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## Mr Muleskinner

It doesn't matter, they dropped BYU. Period. They didn't drop anybody else to play Michigan or add anybody else. The only three teams that have been talked about or should be are the Utes, Cougars and Wolverines. The other teams that the Utes have scheduled have nothing to with it.

Is the rivalry important to all of those involved? Absolutely. Is the rivalry dead? Please. This will just add fuel to the fire.

Michigan should not be considered a novelty IMO by anybody. Especially by fans of a team that can't seem to get anybody to play them a home/away series. The Utes have played some pretty big names as well (including Michigan in 2008 on the road) and will have more added to the slate in the future with the alliance of the Big 10. The Utes have been in the BCS picture as I am sure everybody is aware. It is not a novelty, it is a direction of improving competition and expanding the horizons and the national audience. Think what you want but NOBODY in the country will put BYU on the same page as Michigan. Playing big names for the Utes in the PAC 12 is going to be far more common in the coming years and let's face it, if it is a novelty for Utah, it has become a more of rarity for BYU. Is it fresh and exciting now? You bet. A novelty? Come on......haven't the Utes earned a little respect from Cougar fans? Really......what was the last big game that BYU won that was a real difference maker? The Utes also have the best winning percentage in the country in bowl games.

And a parting shot - I know there have been a few big upsets at LES. But the very long list that was referred to...... Let's see it, I bet it is shorter than you think. I assume you were talking about powerhouses and not Idaho St.

C'mon......rivalry dead? Really. I think this thread alone proves otherwise.

All in good fun.

BTW ESPNU is no more national exposure than the OWN.


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## GaryFish

What is OWN? 

BYU has Texas next year. 

Big Ticket Teams coming to BYU in the past:
Florida State
Notre Dame
Penn State
Texas
Texas A & M
Miami
USC
Utah

Other 2nd shelf games:
UCLA
Washington
Virginia
Georgia Tech
Syracuse (when they were good)


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## Catherder

GaryFish said:


> And a parting shot - if Utah did indeed drop BYU so they could play Michigan, then who are they going to play with those other two open dates?


You know the answer, the same teams they were going to play all along. But as Muleskinner notes, what does it matter? Michigan is on the sked and that is *not* playing a weak OOC slate by any means.

Now, who are the cougs going to play now that the Utes are off the sked for 2 years? Unless Holmoe can come up with something decent, you might be replacing the rivalry game with another round of Mew Mexico St. For that, cougarfan, you have my sympathy and condolences. I feel your pain.


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## Mr Muleskinner

OWN is the Oprah Winfrey Network


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## Mr Muleskinner

Okay so that "very" long list of teams did not necessarily mean teams that went to LES and lost, and not all all of those teams were worth their own salt at the time either.


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## Mr Muleskinner

when a few of those team went there I still had a mullet.


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## JuddCT

I listened to national radio today and the guys were just laughing about how big a deal people are making this. I kind of agree. Do I want it to continue every year? Why not. Do I really care if it takes a break? Not really. I want it to happen even less now due to the reaction from BYU fans. Thanks for making me smile today!


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> Now, who are the cougs going to play now that the Utes are off the sked for 2 years? Unless Holmoe can come up with something decent, you might be replacing the rivalry game with another round of Mew Mexico St. For that, cougarfan, you have my sympathy and condolences. I feel your pain.


...sounds like Wisconsin is in the mix. :OX/:

We _will _still have to sit through a crummy WAC schedule, though. :evil:


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## GaryFish

Mr Muleskinner said:


> when a few of those team went there I still had a mullet.


Don't you STILL have a mullet?


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## Mr Muleskinner

Not at 45 I don't. It doesn't get much longer than an inch anymore. I would sooner have a flat top.


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## GaryFish

I'm done complaining on this one. Life goes on.


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## Catherder

BirdDogger said:


> ...sounds like Wisconsin is in the mix. :OX/:


That wouldn't too bad of a consolation prize. I hope Holmoe can pull it off. Heck, I might even go to LES for that one.


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## Catherder

Sorry to see this go, but this should help keep the rivalry game going in the future.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... artnership


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## GaryFish

Yesterday on the radio, the guys interviewed Ian Furness - formerly of the SLC market, now in Seattle. He made the point that the demands from USC and Stanford to both play Notre Dame every year is a scheduling problem to the entire conference. I found that point interesting. 

The one thought I keep having about this entire deal is that the entire college football landscape may be completely different in 4 years than it is right now. The changes of the past 3-4 were all in a state of jockeying for position to get a piece of the BCS pie. When the new play-off situation comes into play in the 2014 season, that is a MAJOR shift for the major bowl games, teams, conferences, everyone. And thinking about the many changes of the last few years, I would guess we haven't seen anything yet compared to what we'll see under the new system.


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## MountainBro

JuddCT said:


> I listened to national radio today and the guys were just laughing about how big a deal people are making this. I kind of agree. Do I want it to continue every year? Why not. Do I really care if it takes a break? Not really. I want it to happen even less now due to the reaction from BYU fans. Thanks for making me smile today!


That is to bad... I will miss it, it was a great game, not just because of the actual game, but the rivalry week leading up to the game was always fun at my work.


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## Mr Muleskinner

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... artnership

The alliance has fallen through anyhow. The rivalry will be back if there was ever any real doubt.


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## GaryFish

Well, I'm thinking that any kind of projections past about two seasons is really a crap shoot. With the changes in format for the bowls and 4 team play-off starting in 2014, who knows what things will look like at that point.


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## Mr Muleskinner

agreed


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## JERRY

This may have been covered, but short of reading the entire thread (I have to pass) Utah will be better off playing Michigan over BYU when it comes to the BCS rankings. If Utah loses to BYU it hurts much more than a loss to Michigan. Unless BYU is ranked which is unlikely, but you never know. Michigan ranked or not has more clout.

In short there is not much in it for Utah to even play BYU anymore.

That said I do not want to see the rivalry go away. o-||


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## GaryFish

No question the Michigan game is a great deal for Utah. No question at all. The stink of it is Utah still has two open dates for those two seasons, and refuses to play BYU, but instead favors scheduling Division 2 schools, or lower tier D1 schools instead of playing BYU. 

Lots is changing every day on the college football landscape though. Lots is changing. Who knows what will happen in those seasons anyway?


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## JERRY

Who knows, BYU may be in a better position down the road being independent. Only time will tell. I think both teams will come around, but it may be too late for the rivalry tradition.


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## GaryFish

Lots could happen. Super conferences of 16 teams could form. BYU could join the Big 12. More teams may go independent with their own TV networks. An "elite" conference may form. Conferences may dissolve all together. It is tough to say at this point. Heck, Utah State could return to its place as THE football school in Utah. Weird things can happen. And looking at the past four years of college football, I tend to think that anything is possible.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> Utah State could return to its place as THE football school in Utah.


Please, God, read this. >>O


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## jahan

BirdDogger said:


> Utah State could return to its place as THE football school in Utah.
> 
> 
> 
> Please, God, read this. >>O
Click to expand...

+100000 :lol:


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## GaryFish

Press is reporting home and home with Wisconsin. BYU goes there in 2013. No date for Badgers in Provo. 

2013 is going to be a good schedule for the Cougs. Best one yet. Lots of "really really tough games." Still 3 games to schedule, but it is certainly looking good with what is scheduled so far. Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12, ACC, Notre Dame, Boise State, and Utah State? Wowzers! 

Home schedule is: Texas, Boise State, Utah and Georgia Tech so far.
Away games include: Notre Dame, Houston, Utah State, Hawaii and Wisconsin.

No game on that will be a cinch. Should be either a really good year, or a really tough year for Cougar Fan.


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## Mr Muleskinner

or it could be both at the same time. Nothing wrong with losing a few more games than normal against still competition. That is how a program grows.


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## Huge29

I had forgotten about this thread and just could not let this sleeping doe lie there:


Catherder said:


> That's the problem, the Pac-12 slate has 9 tough games plus they scheduled those cupcakes from Ann Arbor.





Catherder said:


> Typical of you to not look at the years in question. For 2014-15, kindly plug Oregon, Stanford, and Michigan in and tell me how weak the schedule is, Mr. fuzzy math. :roll:


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: So, 1+1+1 (according to the second post)= 9?? (according to the first post)


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## Catherder

Huge29 said:


> I had forgotten about this thread and just could not let this sleeping doe lie there:
> 
> 
> Catherder said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the problem, the Pac-12 slate has 9 tough games plus they scheduled those cupcakes from Ann Arbor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catherder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Typical of you to not look at the years in question. For 2014-15, kindly plug Oregon, Stanford, and Michigan in and tell me how weak the schedule is, Mr. fuzzy math. :roll:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: So, 1+1+1 (according to the second post)= 9?? (according to the first post)
Click to expand...

Is that the best ya can do after two weeks? OK then, but I am fully willing to move on and congratulate BYU and Holmoe for doing a good job on their 2013 scheduling :O||: . Far better than I expected for them.

Now my last reply on this. With Oregon and Stanford on the U's schedule for 2014, that means you have 2 (2011) BCS game contestants, USC, who is currently considered in the top 5 nationally, and Michigan, the winningest program in history of college football, on the schedule. They will drop 2 middling Pac-12 teams, say for argument sake, Oregon St. and Cal, and have 6 more Pac-12 teams to play and 2 cupcakes. By any comparative metric, a solid schedule for any BCS school. In spite of how much you may demand it, not all 12 Pac-12 teams can go undefeated and some games will be tougher than others and some pac-12 teams will be below .500. Oh well. It seems to some cougarfans that anything short of playing the entire Associated Press top 12 will be considered a "weak schedule" once the Y was dropped.

I'm done with this. Lets talk about why Blechen got a 3 game suspension or if Charles Nelson Riley will get a regulation haircut before the season opener? Or how about where Star Lotoleilei or Van Noy will get drafted in the NFL?


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## Huge29

You must have been in high school debate for at least a month because you played that change the subject card like a pro! My original post was quite simple in replying to your 9 game comment and a comment made often by the ewts specifically saying 9 or 10 tough games you have just conceded that that number is greatly exaggerated; what is the real figure in justifying how the ewts are too good for this lowly in state rivalry? It sounds like you are saying 3, and well ND, BSU and GT (ewts certianly don't qualify) sounds like the Y's schedule is every bit as tough this year. :mrgreen: 
It is time for a wager-30 days of whatever opponent's choice of avatar, are you in?
I am not predicting this, but what a corner in which Whitless has painted himself after such arrogant remarks will he be found after possibly losing this game?? That would look poorly upon him I reckon.


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## Huge29

On a slightly different note, but related to coach's making boneheaded comments, this was discussed on 1320 this morning-Boscoe's 2007 quote as such:


> We didn't lose to anybody and won't lose to anybody, I think, from this point on in in-state recruiting.


Was this taken out of context? What a stupid thing to say, sounds like a 12-year old, but was he referring to overall recruiting classes or specific recruits that they wouldn't lose a single recruit in which they were competing? I am trying to give him a little credit, but maybe he was just riding that high after sweeping the conference the previous year and about to repeat just a year before the quest? I have a hard time understanding that guy.


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## GaryFish

Catherder said:


> Lets talk about why Blechen got a 3 game suspension


That one totally bums me out. I may bleed blue, but that dude is a freaking stud on the field. I love great football no matter the color of the uni, and Blechen is a great player. I commend Whit for the strict substance abuse policy. Its one thing to suspend a walk-on freshman that plays on scout team. Its another to suspend one of best defensive players and future NFL player. Word on the radio now is that he "had multiple failed drug tests". I think it was Gunther on 1320 saying that 3 positive tests puts a guy off the team completely. So that told, it means he tested positive twice for the hippie lettuce. I figure the punishment is about right. Kids are kids. I wish he would have learned from the first positive test. But he's still a kid. I hope he doesn't have a 3rd positive and get himself kicked off the team. That would be a huge blow to his NFL future.

I'm bummed he won't be playing in the rivalry, because I really like both teams to be at full strength for the game. More than anything, I can take off my Y hat on this one though and I sincerely hope he learns from it, doesn't make the same mistake again, and can go on to have a great season.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> by BirdDogger » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:30 am





> by GaryFish » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:24 am
> Utah State could return to its place as THE football school in Utah.





> Please, God, read this. >>O


Thank you!!!!!!!!!!! :_O=: *OOO* :_O=:


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## GaryFish

GREAT job Aggies! Now if the Cougs can do their thing, the utahutes can start the season 1-4! No doubt, they are playing a "really really tough schedule week in and week out." With what Anderson has done at Utah State, no wonder the utahutes don't want to play them anymore either. 

Funny thing to me is just how many utahutefans have been drinking the red kool-aid, talking about a chance to beat USC. Yea, that's cute. After losing to Utah State, anyone think the yootz will be favored against ANYONE this year? Its going to be tough weekend for the 12-pack. The conference could possibly go 2-10 for the weekend. We shall see.


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## GaryFish

So last week the talk was that utahutes were clearly the 3rd best team in the 12-Pack. We find out Saturday if they are the 3rd best team in Utah!


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## Catherder

GaryFish said:


> Its going to be tough weekend for the 12-pack. The conference could possibly go 2-10 for the weekend.


Nice try. :roll:

Oregon St. 10 *#13*Wisconsin 7
UCLA 36 *#16*Nebraska 30
Arizona 59 *#18*Oklahoma St. 38
Arizona St. 45 Illinois 14

Nuff said. :twisted:


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## Catherder

GaryFish said:


> So last week the talk was that utahutes were clearly the 3rd best team in the 12-Pack. We find out Saturday if they are the 3rd best team in Utah!


cougarfans ought not to be cackling too much because they may find *they* are the 3rd best team in the state.


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## GaryFish

That is a real good point Catherder. You just might be right! But for now, we haven't lost to Utah State.



Yet.


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## quakeycrazy

Hey I didn't see the final score of the game from Saturday.. Any news??? Any updated on whether BYU is ready for the Utah State game? :O•-:


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## GaryFish

Utah State game? Heck, BYU's not ready for the Boise State game tomorrow night. Let us take things one loss at a time. ;-)


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## jahan

Call me crazy, but I think BYU will win this game against Boise State.


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## GaryFish

You might be right Jahan. IF BYU is going to win, this would be the year. Past history shows that BYU has never beat BSU. So there is that going for the Cougs. A solid and experienced defense and senior QB should help. The short week is a tough deal for the Cougs, but BSU had a short week too. And with the way BSU runs an offense, itis all over the board - not some consistent theme like a pro set, spread, or option. They are all over. Which the way BYU plays defense - keep your assignments and if you do that well, you can defend any kind of offense - it could bode well for BYU. 

But snapping the ball over the head of the QB multiple times will kill a team regardless of what the opponent is up to. I am cautiously optimistic.


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## Huge29

jahan said:


> Call me crazy, but I think BYU will win this game against Boise State.


Crazy!


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