# Todays WB meeting impressions



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I need to give Lee (elkfromabove) some major props for traveling as far as he does and to give his personal thoughts about the agenda items. We may not always see eye to eye but I do respect his diligence.

Also, I was impressed with the new board chair kirk woodward, he seems pretty level headed. 

and the new pres. of SFW seems to be trying to change the image of the organization. Which will take some time for that to happen. 
I was impressed with a lot of his remarks, he seems to support more opportunity than the past presidents have and is more personable too.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Geeze I wasnt paying attention to names when people got up to make comments. I'll have to go back and see who Lee was.

Overall, I feel like hunter sentiment was expressed from the RAC members to the board. Its a promising feeling.

I was NOT happy they decided for the first time since they probably made the original regulations that its now legal to shoot two antlered animals of the same species (ie: you can kill multiple buck deer, or multiple bull elk). They did that to fix a minor loophole in the mentor system... we'll have to see how the actual statute is written to see if this is as big of a deal as I think its going to be.

-DallanC


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> I need to give Lee (elkfromabove) some major props for traveling as far as he does and to give his personal thoughts about the agenda items. We may not always see eye to eye but I do respect his diligence.
> 
> Also, I was impressed with the new board chair kirk woodward, he seems pretty level headed.
> 
> ...


Agreed on all points. Lee, you're a true soilder. Kirk Woodward, I've enjoyed because he's level headed and he makes no bones about things. He is actually quite straight forward with things and sometimes even a little snappy on things. I really like him as the board chair. I was surprised by Troy from SFW as well, I was agreeing with him and thought he had some great comments and points. Doesn't mean I'll be joining any time soon but it's nice to see SFW changing it's tune a bit. I applaud him for his remarks on a working relationship with landowners and livestock producers and not the current way we get sacked in the back of the head to often. I missed the first couple hours of the meeting but listened to the results of the proposals. I'll have to go back and listen to the first part of it.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Anyone care to share what they passed? Multi season elk, late muzzy deer, split rifle deer???


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

silentstalker said:


> Anyone care to share what they passed? Multi season elk, late muzzy deer, split rifle deer???


Three season elk passed, late muzzy deer failed, and split rifle season passed with the exception that the Panguitch Lake unit was removed.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Thx!


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## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

DallanC said:


> I was NOT happy they decided for the first time since they probably made the original regulations that its now legal to shoot two antlered animals of the same species (ie: you can kill multiple buck deer, or multiple bull elk).
> 
> -DallanC


^^Sorry if I missed it, but when in the meeting was this discussed?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

KRH said:


> ^^Sorry if I missed it, but when in the meeting was this discussed?


It's the mentor tag rule. Under the new rule, legal for a youth to shoot an antlered animal on his/her tag and an antlered animal of the same species on a mentor tag.


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## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

Clarq said:


> It's the mentor tag rule. Under the new rule, legal for a youth to shoot an antlered animal on his/her tag and an antlered animal of the same species on a mentor tag.


Thanks


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Clarq said:


> It's the mentor tag rule. Under the new rule, legal for a youth to shoot an antlered animal on his/her tag and an antlered animal of the same species on a mentor tag.


This goes back to our long mentor thread.. WHYYYYYYYYY!!!!!! This isn't mentoring, this is a game.

This isn't directed at the messenger Clarq! This is just frustration at what a "recruiting" tool has become.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Clarq said:


> It's the mentor tag rule. Under the new rule, legal for a youth to shoot an antlered animal on his/her tag and an antlered animal of the same species on a mentor tag.


This is just the most obvious consequence of the new rule!

How about the fact that a mentored youth can hunt and harvest both sexes of almost EVERY big game animal (except RMBH and DBH) every year for 6 years and never be subject to waiting periods or OIAL requirements, all while remaining in the draw pools AND being able to buy bonus and preference points! If he/her and/or his/her parents hung around in the right circles, that could amount to 14 hunts per year for 6 years (84 hunts), and he/she would still end up in the draw pool with 6 preference points and 6 bonus points. And then 20-25 years down the road he'd/she'd take a permit away from someone who has NEVER hunted an OIAL species or LE hunt.

When the issue of a youth hunting and harvesting 2 antlered animals of the same species came up, Troy, SFW Pres. remarked, "Good for him." And Troy was right. It would be good for him. It would suck for me and my grandkids and most of you, but it would be "Good for him."

I said this program was a can of worms when it first came out and it's only gotten worse. I was surprised, but pleased when the presenter also called this particular issue a can of worms. They didn't listen to me back then, but they listened to him, so when they passed it, the Wildlife Board said they would look closely at the results this year and would change it if they needed to next year. We'll see.

Edited: BTW, Thanks for the compliments, guys! I try to be inconspicuous when I'm down in the audience, but I want them to see and hear me when it's time for that. It would be great to have some of you there for support or even opposition if you so desire. We gotta have more of you involved other than the internet.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Clarq said:


> didn't listen to me back then, but they listened to him, so when they passed it, the Wildlife Board said they would look closely at the results this year and would change it if they needed to next year. We'll see.


Good they are listening but it will take multi-year analysis to matter. Its not the effects of one year that will impact us but the accumulative effect down the road. That is difficult and inconvenient for agencies.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

What do you think a San Juan Elk tag or a Henry Mountain Mule tag will sell for under this? I will give up my hunt, I mean.. eh hem "mentor"..... for $10K. Go hunt stag or do a mule/whitetail combo hunt in the midwest instead.




Edit: The thing that is clear to me (this is with 0 proof lol), is that these rules come about based on what the wildlife board is experiencing. Right now some must have grandkids turning 12, last time one of them must of had enough points for a great ML unit and needed the extra optics, a few probably have some moose points....


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Plus, I hate the party hunting part of the mentor tag. 
If a youth draws a tag they shouldn't be able to be mentored on another tag for the same species. This will lead to less opportunity down the road. Unless I'm misred everything.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The sad thing on the mentor program is that they admitted that they don't have any data on it to support it. Granted it has only been going for a couple of years but there should be data out there on what is going on. 

As for recruitment, what is going to happen when the kids have to start living in the real world of the "sorry you didn't draw" emails. I personally don't think that the mentor program is really going to do that much in getting the young hunters to stick around once they leave the hunting world of youth permits and the mentor program.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Personally, I like the mentor program. I like the idea that I can take my deer tag down the road and allow my boy to harvest a buck with it. I believe many dads already do this illegally and feel this is a good way to not make criminals out of these people.

I look at the situation some of my young relatives have been in the past few years--new hunters without tags--and I wonder how we are to get these kids involved if they can't draw.

I only wish, though, that the mentor program were used outside of the LE and OIL tags and used mainly for general season and antlerless hunts.


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

What about the split rifle deer seasons? How will that affect draw odds? Which season will most apply for early or later?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Slayer said:


> What about the split rifle deer seasons? How will that affect draw odds? Which season will most apply for early or later?


Only time will tell. They said the hunts would be divided on a unit by unit basis.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Personally, I like the mentor program. I like the idea that I can take my deer tag down the road and allow my boy to harvest a buck with it. I believe many dads already do this illegally and feel this is a good way to not make criminals out of these people.
> 
> I look at the situation some of my young relatives have been in the past few years--new hunters without tags--and I wonder how we are to get these kids involved if they can't draw.
> 
> I only wish, though, that the mentor program were used outside of the LE and OIL tags and used mainly for general season and antlerless hunts.


I'm almost speechless about your response. 
Since a lot of people are breaking the law anyway, let's just change the law to accommodate them?

I believe it's a very wrong message we are sending the youth. 
We're telling them it's ok to take part in an activity that's illegal (once they turn 18) and unethical in many peoples eyes but until then, they are immune to the law.


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## grizzly (Jun 3, 2012)

Here's my issue with the Mentor Program...

Our point creep is only getting worse as there are many times more applicants than tags each year... this cannot change unless there are less applicants or more tags. The point system was started at an arbitrary date in time, which benefits only those that were of hunting age during the formative years of the point system. Those a decade too old didn't get to benefit to the fullest, and those a decade too young were behind the initial point pool and can't catch up. Possibly for the 5-6 decades of their healthy adult life.

One of the best ways we had to help bring younger hunters into the fold was by older hunters aging out of the process and turning those tags to younger hunters. It is a necessary evil of point systems... it depends on people dying or getting too old to desire to hunt.

The entire idea behind the Mentor Program was supposedly to give some more options to youth hunters, but this is merely a poor solution to fix a problem that was started by the point system in the first place. What I am getting at is that those youth using Mentor tags are just skipping in front of the youth that don't have a Mentor to leech off of. Its not a solution, just shifting one persons problem onto another.

DWR created a problem by picking winners and losers when they started a point system, but now they are just picking more winners and losers to remedy the problem they created for themselves in the first place.

Just dump the point system and go random draw and offer Youth-Only tags like Idaho and New Mexico.

KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> What do you think a San Juan Elk tag or a Henry Mountain Mule tag will sell for under this? I will give up my hunt, I mean.. eh hem "mentor"..... for $10K. Go hunt stag or do a mule/whitetail combo hunt in the midwest instead.
> 
> Edit: The thing that is clear to me (this is with 0 proof lol), is that these rules come about based on what the wildlife board is experiencing. Right now some must have grandkids turning 12, last time one of them must of had enough points for a great ML unit and needed the extra optics, a few probably have some moose points....


You have to realize that we're not just talking about the draw tags. ALL big game tags (and lions and turkeys and bears, Oh my!) are available for the Mentor Program. That includes Conservation/Banquet tags, Expo tags, CWMU private tags, Landowner tags, and Depredation tags and that covers a lot of tags that can be obtained outside of the public draw system where you don't need points. You just need money.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> You have to realize that we're not just talking about the draw tags. ALL big game tags (and lions and turkeys and bears, Oh my!) are available for the Mentor Program. That includes Conservation/Banquet tags, Expo tags, CWMU private tags, Landowner tags, and Depredation tags and that covers a lot of tags that can be obtained outside of the public draw system where you don't need points. You just need money.


Exactly, and thats why I want to see how they word the actual law. It sounds like, theoretically a super rich grandfather with a terminal illness could purchase every single auction tag in the state and let a mentored kid kill everything. Afterall, the restriction on only being able to kill a single antlered species per year is being thrown out.

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

The bigger negative with Mentored tags people fail to realize is multiple guns per tag equals a higher percentage chance of that tag being filled. Average deer harvest in my unit is around 30%, so theoretically 2 guys eat tag soup for every one that kills a deer. Now if those two unsuccessful guys had another person with a gun with them, the chance of filling the tag has to increase.

So we could see the harvest rates go up as less tags go unfilled, which translates directly into fewer tags being issued. Right now the DWR takes into account X amount of tags going unfilled when they do their allotments. Now we are tweaking a system where multiple people can hunt on one tag, to make it even more appealing. 

I'm interested to see how big of an increase in mentored kids we get after the next year.


-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Exactly, and thats why I want to see how they word the actual law. It sounds like, theoretically a super rich grandfather with a terminal illness could purchase every single auction tag in the state and let a mentored kid kill everything. Afterall, the restriction on only being able to kill a single antlered species per year is being thrown out.
> 
> -DallanC


Wouldn't the person mentoring be required to actually have the tag as well? Rich, terminally ill grandpa could only have one tag to mentor spoiled Jr on. He could buy all the rest of the tags but they would have to be in other people's names. Then those people would all have to mentor Spoiled Jr. Possible I guess but not likely to be widespread by my best guess.

I do think that many kids will kill more than one buck/bull per year. Mine likely will fill my tag along with their own.

This will not spoil them nearly as much as it will spoil me.

I'm not saying this would have been my idea but I'll certainly participate. --SS


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Yep this program will abused. People of this state are so short sighted why fix a problem when you can create a bunch of new ones.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

My observation of the current Utah DWR process after a few years is a rush to create and implement solutions without fully analyzing the long term implications.

In this case, I have yet to see evidence that youth recruitment doesn't match what big game populations can sustain. I have yet to see an elegant mentor program that helps recruit youth without entailing noticeable loop holes and hazards.

I don't solely blame DWR as the RAC process comes with its own flaws but at the end of the day we need experts and professionals doing the hard work of highlighting these problems. I'm clearly a novice at this structure but it just seems noticeably haphazard from my perspective.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Springville Shooter said:


> Wouldn't the person mentoring be required to actually have the tag as well? Rich, terminally ill grandpa could only have one tag to mentor spoiled Jr on. He could buy all the rest of the tags but they would have to be in other people's names. Then those people would all have to mentor Spoiled Jr. Possible I guess but not likely to be widespread by my best guess.
> 
> I do think that many kids will kill more than one buck/bull per year. Mine likely will fill my tag along with their own.
> 
> ...


Terminally ill grandpa could only have one tag per species and sex per year per current regulations, ie: 1 buck deer tag, 1 doe deer tag, 1 bull elk tag, 3 cow elk tags, 1 moose tag, 1 pronghorn tag, 1 goat tag, 1 Desert Bighorn tag, 1 Rocky Mountain Bighorn tag, 1 bison tag (I'm not sure about the other species). And if he purchased other tags for other people to mentor any of his
mentored kids/grandkids, then he/they would be breaking the law because the mentor cannot receive any "form of compensation or remuneration for sharing the permit with the Qualifying Minor." That includes the permit itself.

The Minor can only share one of each of those tags per hunting year, but he can also keep any tags he has drawn or purchased on his own. So he could hunt and harvest 2 buck deer, 2 bull elk, 2 bull moose, etc. as long as one is his own.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

A couple other thoughts I had.
First, was that although I'm excited to see another Bighorn Sheep unit open up, I thought it very odd that they are going to hold in the month of Sept. 
I believe that is going to make for a very tough hunt. 
The Newfoundland and Stansbury(when it was open) hold it in Nov. during the rut.

Second, I'm looking real forward to hunting the new early season rifle deer hunt. It should be interesting to see how many tags will be released for each sub unit that is involved.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> I'm almost speechless about your response.
> Since a lot of people are breaking the law anyway, let's just change the law to accommodate them?
> 
> I believe it's a very wrong message we are sending the youth.
> We're telling them it's ok to take part in an activity that's illegal (once they turn 18) and unethical in many peoples eyes but until then, they are immune to the law.


I never said we should change the law to accommodate a criminal. I said we should make a legal way for a mentor to allow a mentee to harvest an animal. The reason so many dads do this now is because they can't get their kids tags. What we are doing is creating a legal way to become a hunting mentor! I never said it is ok to break the law and these people should be immune to the law(but thanks for putting those words in my mouth)...i said that people are doing it now. Maybe we need to look at why they are doing it!

Again, I like the mentor program.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> I never said we should change the law to accommodate a criminal. I said we should make a legal way for a mentor to allow a mentee to harvest an animal. The reason so many dads do this now is because they can't get their kids tags. What we are doing is creating a legal way to become a hunting mentor! I never said it is ok to break the law and these people should be immune to the law(but thanks for putting those words in my mouth)...i said that people are doing it now. Maybe we need to look at why they are doing it!
> 
> Again, I like the mentor program.


Not trying to put words in your mouth.
Just stating how I interpreted your response.
They are legalizing party hunting for the youth, are they not?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

backcountry said:


> My observation of the current Utah DWR process after a few years is a rush to create and implement solutions without fully analyzing the long term implications.


This times 1000. Them changing the law on the fly about killing 2 of the same antlered species is ridiculous. Zero deep thought on implications.

Copy of the video is here: 




Ron Camp is right there with me. His question of "If they have their own tag, and can get mentored on it, then why are we giving them a second tag."

Their reasoning to make it simple, is just a cop out.

Then his reply from the officer is that research shows that they stick with it based on opportunity before 18, and that is the point, but "I don't have data on that" "It is only 3 years old"... So lets roll with anecdotal evidence. I was happy to hear that 2 of the RAC had their head on their shoulders and wanted the youth to surrender one of the antlered tags.

Around 8:25:30 they are worried about wording for it... WORD IT THE WAY THE CURRENT PROVISION IS. Not that hard.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Most of the people on this forum never got to hunt big game before they were 16... how many of us here stuck with it? Oh yea, 100%.


-DallanC


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

If they have a tag they by rule need to be mentored anyways. They have to have someone with them over 21 anyways. The mentor program should only be for youth who didn't draw a general deer tag or antlerless tag.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Brookie said:


> If they have a tag they by rule need to be mentored anyways. They have to have someone with them over 21 anyways. The mentor program should only be for youth who didn't draw a general deer tag or antlerless tag.


Exactly no youth needs a limited entry mentor tag that just adds strain to an already collapsing LE pyramid scheme. It's OK for kids to start with general season tags.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Most of the people on this forum never got to hunt big game before they were 16... how many of us here stuck with it? Oh yea, 100%.
> 
> -DallanC


And why did we stick with it? FAMILY & FRIENDS, not the size of the antlers!

Edited: Another issue we need to be aware of is the growing effort to raise a generation of "trophy"/"quality"/"mature"/"serious" big game hunters (or whatever term they are using now) and that's what the mentoring program has now come to.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

elkfromabove said:


> And why did we stick with it? FAMILY & FRIENDS, not the size of the antlers!


I actually stuck with it because I enjoy hunting. It had nothing to do with FAMILY and FRIENDS. Most of my FRIENDS gave up hunting a long time ago, and I didn't start hunting with family until I was well into my hunting hobby.

But then perhaps I am just different than a lot of others.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> And why did we stick with it? FAMILY & FRIENDS, not the size of the antlers!
> 
> Edited: Another issue we need to be aware of is the growing effort to raise a generation of "trophy"/"quality"/"mature"/"serious" big game hunters (or whatever term they are using now) and that's what the mentoring program has now come to.


People do want to see bucks and the more the better.
(As per the hunter survey a few years ago)
They also want to have the "hope" of seeing the big one.
If we would have stuck with unlimited statewide tags with an average 5-7/100 buck/doe ratio. We would have seen hunter interest in the general season drastically decrease. I'm willing to bet the house on that one.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Hunter interest decreased from 200,000 plus to what maybe 130,000 with everybody who put in and didn't draw.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The interest decreased mostly from having to draw a tag to go hunting. That along with moms, grandmothers, sisters, and whoever else really didn't care about hunting in the first place not getting a tag anymore.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> People do want to see bucks and the more the better.
> (As per the hunter survey a few years ago)
> They also want to have the "hope" of seeing the big one.
> If we would have stuck with unlimited statewide tags with an average 5-7/100 buck/doe ratio. We would have seen hunter interest in the general season drastically decrease. I'm willing to bet the house on that one.


Yes, per the survey, people do want to see bucks and the more the better, but most of them also were not then, and are not now, willing to sacrifice their opportunity to hunt to get to the numbers that the trophy hunters were seeking. (I would love to have a yellow Ferrari Testarossa, but I'm not willing to sell my 3 vehicles and refinance my house or go back to work (and divorce my wife) to get it!)

I will agree that if we had kept a 5-7/100 buck to doe ratio, if we ever did, we would have seen a decrease in hunter interest in the general season. But there comes a time when the increase in buck to doe ratios goes too far beyond it's biological and managerial need and that time has come for all general units per the Mule Deer Plan.

FWIW, the 2014 Survey also showed that the #1 reason for hunting mule deer is to be with family and friends.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

In the survey, I remember there was a question asking if people were willing to sacrifice in order to see more bucks and the majority said they would. I was one of those that said I like hunting with family and friends but was willing to sacrifice to get the struggling unit up to par. I also believe many of the units could use an increase in tag numbers.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

So now we will teach our kids that party hunting and shooting multiple antlered critters of the same species is acceptable. Then when they turn 18 they have to wait a year or 4 between tags and then they can only shoot one and no party hunting allowed. 

Just thinking outloud, but they said there was no way to stop the mentee from obtaining a mentored permit if they had their own. So they said to take away that confusion the mentee should be allowed thier own permit and the mentor's permit. So what mechanism is in place to stop a mentee from hunting different seasons on different mentor's permits? So essentially the mentee could obtain a 3rd tag or a 4th tag. 

And I know the mentored tags kill more critters. We have used mentored tags in our family and have killed animals which wouldn't have been killed by the mentor. Small sample size, but I can't imagine we are alone.

Finally, there is no tracking mechanism for Mentee success. For example, we mentored one youth this year and the mentor received a survey. No where in the survey did it mention mentoring, nor did it ask who filled the tag.

But it is the rule and we will play by the rules.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> In the survey, I remember there was a question asking if people were willing to sacrifice in order to see more bucks and the majority said they would. I was one of those that said I like hunting with family and friends but was willing to sacrifice to get the struggling unit up to par. I also believe many of the units could use an increase in tag numbers.


The question was: "Are you willing to accept additional restrictions in order to manage for larger and/or more mule deer bucks?" And the overwhelming answer was YES - 72% to 28% - NO.
But the next 4 questions told us what they weren't willing to do to get there:
1) weren't willing to convert more general-season units to limited-entry units. 45% oppose to 35% support with 20% neutral.
2) weren't willing to have more archery/muzzleloader permits and fewer rifle (any-legal-weapon) permits. 46% oppose to 34% support with 20% neutral.
3) weren't willing to support road and trail closures during hunting season. 51% oppose to 32% support with 17% neutral.
4) weren't willing to give up the ability to hunt every year. 48% oppose to 34% support with 18% neutral.

Then further in the survey we got:
"A rifle season with only 1 weekend to hunt instead of 2". 60% oppose, 22% support with 18% neutral.
"A rifle season that is shorter than 9 days". 59% oppose, 22% support with 19% neutral.

So, it's, I want all these wonderful things to happen to our herds as long as I don't have to pay too much for it or change anything (or, apparently, go to any of those cussed RAC or Wildlife Board meetings.).

Well, the DWR and several trophy oriented groups show up at EVERY RAC and Wildlife Board Meeting which are nothing more than wildlife management meetings and so most of you like to blame them for the poor herds and lousy hunts. They're gonna speak out for their interests and if you're gonna silently let them do it, you'll get the leftovers.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> The question was: "Are you willing to accept additional restrictions in order to manage for larger and/or more mule deer bucks?" And the overwhelming answer was YES - 72% to 28% - NO.
> But the next 4 questions told us what they weren't willing to do to get there:
> 1) weren't willing to convert more general-season units to limited-entry units. 45% oppose to 35% support with 20% neutral.
> 2) weren't willing to have more archery/muzzleloader permits and fewer rifle (any-legal-weapon) permits. 46% oppose to 34% support with 20% neutral.
> ...


Well, according to the survey, a 30/70 split would be a good start for the two rifle deer hunts, with 30% going to the early season.
Question #4 is a "loaded" question. That can put a lot of fear into people and leaves a lot of unknowns.
It would of been better if asked... would you be willing to not hunt your 1st choice every year but still hunt one of your 2nd through 5th choices. If another question would have been asked like that, I'm sure there would have been a lower % opposing.
Anyway, your right about friends and family being important. A kid would be served just as well if they are just out tagging along rather than the need to pull the trigger. That's where this mentor program is getting it all wrong.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I think I got the mentor program all wrong. I never thought it was about kids, I always thought it was about dads. When my kids go with me on a mentored hunt, its way more about me than them. Like Ridge says, they would be happy to tag along and camp. I'm the one who really enjoys letting them pull the trigger. 

This is especially true on hunts that are designed to fill the freezer only with no trophy element such as cow elk and doe pronghorn. Yes, we want the meat, salami, jerky, etc. Yes, I have killed lots of animals and get WAY more satisfaction out of letting my kids do the trigger work. It is both more challenging and more satisfying. I would be totally fine to limiting the mentor program to antlerless hunts, but like Packout, I will gladly play by whatever rules they come up with. --------SS


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Maybe make Everyone do a harvest survey every year regardless of harvest or tags. Then we could get some real numbers instead of estimates. I'm sure everyone has time to do one. If we have time to be on this site then we have time to do one of those yearly. I'm sure the DWR doesn't want to count them all up or they would already do this, but I say make them earn OUR money. Maybe some man would think twice before he pulled the trigger on his childs mentor tag or for another hunter knowing he has to sign a legal doc. after.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> A kid would be served just as well if they are just out tagging along rather than the need to pull the trigger. That's where this mentor program is getting it all wrong.


you mean like "take me out to the ball game" but don't ever play the game with me? What you are saying is that a kid will become a hunter if he just gets to tag along...or become interested in baseball if the dad just takes him to the game. I disagree....at some point, that kid has to play the game!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

7MM RELOADED said:


> Maybe make Everyone do a harvest survey every year regardless of harvest or tags. Then we could get some real numbers instead of estimates..


I have said this many times over the years, but it is worth saying again. Harvest surveys of every single hunter don't give us any better information than what statistically valid samples of the entire hunting population give us. You would be asking the DWR to split hairs....hardly worth the time and effort.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

7MM RELOADED said:


> Maybe make Everyone do a harvest survey every year regardless of harvest or tags. Then we could get some real numbers instead of estimates. I'm sure everyone has time to do one. If we have time to be on this site then we have time to do one of those yearly. I'm sure the DWR doesn't want to count them all up or they would already do this, but I say make them earn OUR money.


All they need to do is to add a few questions to the exsisting surveys such as:

Did you mentor this tag?

Did a someone that you mentored shoot a animal?

Then go to a second section if either or both were answered by Yes and add a few more questions.

After doing this for even a couple of years they would have a data base to look at.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I still can't get this out of my mind. The thing that bothers me first and foremost is that they gave themselves less than a half hour to make a big decision, and the questions and issues that were presented warranted more thought. If they knew all the in's and out's it would have been different. They didn't.

Them saying data shows opportunity leads to youth sticking with it, then saying they don't have data because its only a 3 year old program is not comforting. "But the people I have talked to really enjoy it." Umm, scientific enough I guess.

What keeps replaying in my head is the "people are already doing it" when referring to youth already hunting on their tag and a mentor's tag... People also poach in a number of ways already, but we don't adjust the rules. If a youth is shooting 2 antlered species, before this passed, they were breaking the law. So we just, change the law. Saying the law was confusing and how they get calls and there is no effective way to communicate the rules.... That's a cop out and a can of worms. They have an entire proclamation on management mule deer hunts. Doesn't a program involving our youth's safety, recruitment, and success warrant such a guidebook? Are we teaching them what hunting actually entails?

I also can't get over how worried they were about the wording. The current wording says we can only shoot one antlered species. It also says a whole bunch of stuff that few people read. It would be pretty easy to word it.

Then they talked about how they would have to rewrite the entire code to adjust. Not really. You could easily add a portion to your application where you enter the name of someone you are going to mentor. Similar to a group application. Or a code that cross references the mentor applications with tag holders. I.e. jimmy bob jr applied to be mentored for buck deer, but the system says he has a general buck deer tag. Declined. But then again the state website sucks and they overpay (I am assuming) for that. Meanwhile 15 year olds can write apps that work.

[Disclaimer: If you developed the site, I apologize for any offense given. However, the constant crashing and 90's look and survey style format are dated. This is an issue in a number of states, don't beat yourself up about it  ]

We haven't even talked about the moose. Is our population really that outta hand? I have land in South Cache and the Ogden Drainage. Both are moose areas. Neither strikes me as being insanely populated. I guess since I will never draw moose, I didn't really look to see that from maps, looks like a big chunk of moose hunts are private property (side from wasatch). Is that accurate?

I am done ranting on the mentor change. In their words "if we have a problem with it we can always come back and change it later."


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> Well, according to the survey, a 30/70 split would be a good start for the two rifle deer hunts, with 30% going to the early season.
> Question #4 is a "loaded" question. That can put a lot of fear into people and leaves a lot of unknowns.
> It would of been better if asked... would you be willing to not hunt your 1st choice every year but still hunt one of your 2nd through 5th choices. If another question would have been asked like that, I'm sure there would have been a lower % opposing.
> Anyway, your right about friends and family being important. A kid would be served just as well if they are just out tagging along rather than the need to pull the trigger. That's where this mentor program is getting it all wrong.


Several of the questions were loaded. We spent 3.5 hours trying to update and simplify the 2008 survey and, of course, there were 17 different opinions on how each question should be worded. Each of us was trying to word it so that we got the answers we wanted.

In fact, the whole survey itself was loaded because we only got a 30% response while the other 70% either didn't have deer hunting high enough on their priority list to bother with it or didn't think it would do any good to respond, thus we didn't even hear from the majority of the targeted participants.

Additionally, the Mule Deer Committee itself was also loaded. At least 5 (I think 6, but have no way of knowing for sure) of the members were SFW officers/members, most who were there in other capacities, and 3 others who represented organizations who also market trophy tags.

In any case, we had no choice other than to accept the results and go from there. Of course, we all had our own interpretation of the results, which would have happened regardless of the answers, but we all had our say and vote and the current Mule Deer Plan was the result of 42 hours of discussion and compromise, along with some homework. Finally, we ALL agreed in writing to accept it. It's too bad many of you don't.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

wyoming2utah said:


> you mean like "take me out to the ball game" but don't ever play the game with me? What you are saying is that a kid will become a hunter if he just gets to tag along...or become interested in baseball if the dad just takes him to the game. I disagree....at some point, that kid has to play the game!


I disagree with this analogy because 99%+ of the time while hunting, you're not pulling the trigger. Rather, you're hiking, scouting, glassing, strategizing, etc. Actually shooting an animal is a very small part of the game. Maybe I'm the oddball, but the moment I pull the trigger isn't my favorite part of the hunt. Not even close.

When I didn't have tags as a youth, my dad involved me in every aspect of the hunting we did on his tags (besides the actual shot), and I loved it. It made no difference to me whether I had my own tag or whether my dad had the tag. In fact, it still doesn't. I'm just as excited when my Dad draws when I do. I might even be more excited, in fact, because I know his hunting days are more limited than mine, and I want to get some more good hunts in with him before time passes us both by.

I also disagree with the notion some people seem to be pushing that kids don't have enough opportunity to hunt big game in Utah. Our draw system favors them heavily. Prior to turning 18, I always had more tags than my dad. No, I wasn't hunting OIAL species, but between general deer and antlerless tags I don't think there was a single year we didn't get to hunt big game.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Clarq said:


> I also disagree with the notion some people seem to be pushing that kids don't have enough opportunity to hunt big game in Utah. Our draw system favors them heavily. Prior to turning 18, I always had more tags than my dad. No, I wasn't hunting OIAL species, but between general deer and antlerless tags I don't think there was a single year we didn't get to hunt big game.


This. I got told this thought process was wrong though because "what if they want a specific unit and weapon"..

We have OTC Elk every year, we have OTC Youth Archery every single year, and we have a ton of youth tags available. NOT TO MENTION the amount of small game and waterfowl opportunity. You want to get a kid hooked, take them grouse hunting or to the swamp where they can pull the trigger often. Quick way to learn firearm safety, get comfortable shooting game, and have a blast.

What do I know though. Apparently the "youth days" aren't successful enough at recruiting.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> you mean like "take me out to the ball game" but don't ever play the game with me? What you are saying is that a kid will become a hunter if he just gets to tag along...or become interested in baseball if the dad just takes him to the game. I disagree....at some point, that kid has to play the game!


 What I am saying is that a kid doesn't have to have a tag every year, if he sits out once in a few years, it's ok. It's more important that he is involved in going out with someone to learn and have fun, even if they don't have a tag.
About your baseball analogy:
What if the kid's mom and siblings going to the ballpark to cheer for dad when he's playing in a baseball game. The kid seeing that it's important to the family and his dad is having a good time playing the game. It more than likely the kid will want to learn how to play for himself but not if the dad were just take him out in the back yard and pitches a ball to the kid and once the kid hits the ball, then they go back in the house until next year. He'll probably be less likely to want to keep playing year after year if that's all the exposure he gets to the game.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> Additionally, the Mule Deer Committee itself was also loaded. At least 5 (I think 6, but have no way of knowing for sure) of the members were SFW officers/members, most who were there in other capacities, and 3 others who represented organizations who also market trophy tags.
> 
> In any case, we had no choice other than to accept the results and go from there. Of course, we all had our own interpretation of the results, which would have happened regardless of the answers, but we all had our say and vote and the current Mule Deer Plan was the result of 42 hours of discussion and compromise, along with some homework. Finally, we ALL agreed in writing to accept it. *It's too bad many of you don't*.


Who are you referring to that doesn't accept the currant plan?
I sure do.
All I was arguing about was the fact that people will loose interest(including youth) if they go a few years in a row without seeing a buck to shoot. They will find something else to do. It's very important to have plenty of bucks around for all hunters to pursue, even at some sacrifice. 
All you want to do is keep bringing up that it's all about big antler pursuing trophy hunter that are ruining everything.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> Who are you referring to that doesn't accept the currant plan?
> I sure do.
> All I was arguing about was the fact that people will loose interest(including youth) if they go a few years in a row without seeing a buck to shoot. They will find something else to do. It's very important to have plenty of bucks around for all hunters to pursue, even at some sacrifice.
> All you want to do is keep bringing up that it's all about big antler pursuing trophy hunter that are ruining everything.


I'm sorry that I've left you with the impression that it's all about the big antler pursuing trophy hunters that are ruining everything. It's not! What it is about is the continuing, relentless push to force that type of hunting on the general units that many of the trophy hunters can't seem to leave alone. If that's not you, then, of course I wasn't referring to you.

Those efforts take on many forms, some which are immediate and/or obvious, some which are pre-cursive steps to their ultimate goal(s) which may take years to accomplish and some which are unintended consequences of innocent proposals. It's been happening for years, but Option #2 was the booster that put it on the forefront. Fortunately, there are many more who have noticed and this round of meetings show that. Maybe I'm getting too paranoid about it, but I question almost every proposal I hear to try to determine it's effect, first on the health of the animals and herds, second on the sport overall per the NAWM and third on the opportunities it gives us to hunt/trap (Yes, including trophy hunting, but not primarily trophy hunting).
If that isn't quite how you perceive me or my intentions, then I guess I'm not doing a very good job of communicating, sorry about that.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Small game is where you get kids hooked on hunting. 

You can hunt rabbits for months and months. Grouse, Pheasants, Doves, Chuckers... you can hunt as often as you want and harvest a ton of critters per month. Deer is a week long affair usually, and 1 and done (if they are lucky). 

I think the focus on trying to use big game as the gateway to hook new hunters is misplaced. General deer success in my unit is 33%? Thats awfully low for someone trying to learn the ropes. Its worse for elk, there are one heck of alot of old guys in this state that have never killed an elk. I remember back in 1981 my dad killed a spike elk up AF canyon and had it hanging in the garage. He had no end of people driving over to take a look at it (elk were rare then).

I'm just saying upland game is a much more productive means to get new hunters introduced to the sport, they will see more game and have more chances at harvest than them getting a deer tag, mentored or otherwise. I think its foolhardy to try and get a new hunter introduced to hunting by giving them a elk tag, thats a sure fire path to frustration.


-DallanC


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> What I am saying is that a kid doesn't have to have a tag every year, if he sits out once in a few years, it's ok. It's more important that he is involved in going out with someone to learn and have fun, even if they don't have a tag.
> About your baseball analogy:
> What if the kid's mom and siblings going to the ballpark to cheer for dad when he's playing in a baseball game. The kid seeing that it's important to the family and his dad is having a good time playing the game. It more than likely the kid will want to learn how to play for himself but not if the dad were just take him out in the back yard and pitches a ball to the kid and once the kid hits the ball, then they go back in the house until next year. He'll probably be less likely to want to keep playing year after year if that's all the exposure he gets to the game.


I think you guys are trying to get the kid interested in baseball without ever signing him up for little league! you can expose him all you want, but until he plays the game, he won't ever develop any kind of love. But, if that kid gets to play in little league year after year....he might just learn to love it! Getting a hunting tag is like getting signed up to play in the league!

And, just to make myself clear, I am not talking about LE and OIL tags. I don't believe those tags should be part of the mentor program.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> What if the kid's mom and siblings going to the ballpark to cheer for dad when he's playing in a baseball game. The kid seeing that it's important to the family and his dad is having a good time playing the game. It more than likely the kid will want to learn how to play for himself.


Both my youngest brother and youngest sister learned to HATE baseball because of this very reason--they hated going to the ballpark 2-3 times a week during the summer to watch me and my other brothers play ball. Forcing a kid on the mountain to watch you hunt animals can have the same effect. I have seen kids at my school getting forced to go hunt with mom or dad when they don't want to as well....


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> I think you guys are trying to get the kid interested in baseball without ever signing him up for little league! you can expose him all you want, but until he plays the game, he won't ever develop any kind of love. But, if that kid gets to play in little league year after year....he might just learn to love it! Getting a hunting tag is like getting signed up to play in the league!


Little league to me, is small game/waterfowl.

Giving a kid a bull moose tag is like signing him to the MLB before he ever throws a pitch or swings a bat.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> And, just to make myself clear, I am not talking about LE and OIL tags. I don't believe those tags should be part of the mentor program.


Hey, we finally agree on something.
So what's your thoughts on this past WB meeting in general?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> I only wish, though, that the mentor program were used outside of the LE and OIL tags and used mainly for general season and antlerless hunts.


I did mention this earlier in this thread as well...

...to me, allowing a kid to shoot a deer with a general season tag or antlerless tag via the mentor program is akin to signing a kid up for little league.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> So what's your thoughts on this past WB meeting in general?


To be honest, I haven't listened to it. I am ok with the split deer season and I am good with the three season dedicated elk idea even though I probably won't participate. I am against the late season muzzy idea....


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> I have seen kids at my school getting forced to go hunt with mom or dad when they don't want to as well....


So is letting them pull the trigger the solution?

How many of us that hunted as a kid with dad, and are still here, hated it?

I found joy in hunting well before I had a tag. Then again I loved 4-wheeling, seeing moose and elk, watching dad or brother knock a deer down.. and even the smell of a gutted animal (the smell of success).

I remember being a kid and getting checked out on a snow day. Dad had his muzzleloader. He was saying "Oh wow look at the baby moose" because a mom and her calf were bedded, snuggling under a pine. I sarcastically said, yeah but look at the deer. "Oh s***" he pulled up and mad the shot. The follow up was even more impressive. The deer ran right at us, bang, drop...

Those memories got me hooked. If I didn't like that, I probably wouldn't like what I do now when I am alone.

Why don't those kids want to go? They want to play, or want technology. We are feeding the idea that harvest is all its about. Thats the wrong recruiting method.

How many kids play sports, knowing they won't win every game? Let along multiple buck deer. It's just the wrong mindset, and further feeds this millennial, insta-gratitude-insta-reward mentality we have built for the future generations.

Some of these mentees won't feel that way. Then again, they are probably the ones who love hunting with dad even without a tag. I don't believe we are "recruiting" net new hunters. They may have a harvest or two as a youth but if they are going to hunt as an adult, this program isn't why. *Once they have data (they admittedly don't, and admittedly never will since they said flat out they can't track when a mentee kills an animal nor have they tried to)* then I will be wrong I guess.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> I found joy in hunting well before I had a tag.


I didn't. In fact, until I had a tag, I had never been hunting. The tag is what triggered the love. My father did not hunt. Right now, I am trying to get my kids interested in fishing. My oldest boy likes to go if he can cast his rod. So, I try to let him even if it means he won't catch anything. If I let him come with me and make him just watch me cast and catch fish will that be fun for him?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> So is letting them pull the trigger the solution?.


I think it can sure help....give the kid the excitement of looking for what is around the next bend, over the next hill, in the next cluster of trees. For me, it is really hard to get that excitement without the tag in hand.

The evolution of a hunter usually begins with that "shooter" stage. No hunter can experience that stage without the opportunity to pull the trigger.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> I didn't. In fact, until I had a tag, I had never been hunting. The tag is what triggered the love. My father did not hunt.


Right. I said how many of us that went hunting with Dad hated it.

My point is, if you go hunting with your family and don't like it, I personally don't believe the tag is the difference.

Your tag triggered it because you had never been. You loved hunting. Different scenario then this. Do you think if you had gone as a guest with family, you wouldn't have enjoyed it? Was harvest why you liked it, honestly? If so that's fine, but it's still different then what you said about kids that don't want to go.

What they are doing now is beyond giving them a tag. They can get a tag all day long, especially for elk. It's giving multiple successes in a single season. Make sure they kill something so they like it. Because that's what hunting is, right? I just don't believe the net gain is what they think it is. I don't believe that Net New hunters are occurring because of this. We can disagree on logistics of if its right or wrong, but that is what it boils down to. Are new hunters coming? They will never have data to show it, which further leads to me being against it.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

We have become a society of everyone is a winner. Everyone gets a trophy, there are no losers. That is until they leave the wonderful world of youth. Then they find out that life is a lot different. Everyone isn't a winner, not everyone gets a trophy and that there are losers in life. 

This is where the mentor program is sitting right now in my opinion. I know of a couple of kids that their dad mentored with his tags, put both of them into the anterless draws and drew cow tags. Took them out hunting and was able to fill all the tags for the animals that they had tags for. 

Now a couple of years later neither one of them could care less about hunting. They don't want to go out with dad anymore to sit in the cold and snow (their words this last Thanksgiving) They rather sit at home and play games on their phones where they can be winners. 

I don't expect either one of these boys to go hunting again. So much for recruitment.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Hunting is not about killing or the harvest. I agree with that notion 100%. But, where we disagree is with the idea that kids will want to go hunting if they can't shoot something. I know I don't. If I had gone as a guest with family, I would not have enjoyed it. In fact, I specifically remember going with my brother-in-law on his LE Monroe late season elk hunt....I got so bored I went back and sat in the truck until everyone came back and we could go home. When I left, there were still over 15 bulls on the sidehill and a giant was bedded that those around me were estimating to be a 390 inch bull. The excitement of sitting out in the cold without a tag in hand was hardly motivating. Again, I believe almost all beginning hunters go through the "shooter" stage where the motivation is pulling the trigger and trying to harvest an animal. 

My love of hunting was triggered by my love of the outdoors and especially fishing. I started shooting a bow when I was relatively young and I was enrolled in the hunter ed program as part of my boy scout group. Shooting a bow resulted in my desire to hunt deer. Had I not been able to get a deer tag, I would have never become someone who loves hunting.

To me, the mentor program is an absolute success if hit helps one kid learn to love hunting.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> I know of a couple of kids that their dad mentored with his tags, put both of them into the anterless draws and drew cow tags. Took them out hunting and was able to fill all the tags for the animals that they had tags for.
> 
> Now a couple of years later neither one of them could care less about hunting. They don't want to go out with dad anymore to sit in the cold and snow (their words this last Thanksgiving) They rather sit at home and play games on their phones where they can be winners.
> 
> I don't expect either one of these boys to go hunting again. So much for recruitment.


Ok...that is a choice. Just like the kid who is enrolled in little league and decides he doesn't like baseball. At least, though, he had a chance to taste the cake. I am most worried about the kids who don't have fathers out there hunting or who don't have a close relative or friend to take them and who will never get any opportunity to even taste what it is like. The mentor program can be good if we use it that way.

I developed a love of hunting because I was able to very casually walk into a sporting goods store and buy a license. I did that as a 14-year old kid. My dad was forced to take me because of the laws at the time. In fact, his biggest fear was probably centered on me actually killing something. Fortunately for him, I never did. Had I not been able to get that tag, I would NEVER have gone. In fact, our deer hunts growing up were always spent fishing somewhere when everyone else was hunting. Had I grown up in today's world, I would not have become a hunter!

I have been taking my oldest boy hunting with me a fair amount the past few years. He gets excited when he sees does, he gets excited when he sees bucks, and he loves the turkey hunt because of the sounds they make. But, this year he started begging me to let him shoot the gun. Not only is it illegal for him to shoot at a buck or elk with the gun, but the gun is simply too big for him as a 7-year old and I have a hard time allowing him to shoot a rifle at that age. I fear, though, that if I don't start letting him shoot a gun at something--even a bb gun at cans--he won't develop that love. He, to me, is in that classic "shooter" stage.

I also believe you are right about this age of entitlement we are in...it is also why I don't believe LE or OIL tags should be part of the program.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> Hunting is not about killing or the harvest. I agree with that notion 100%. But, where we disagree is with the idea that kids will want to go hunting if they can't shoot something. I know I don't. If I had gone as a guest with family, I would not have enjoyed it. In fact, I specifically remember going with my brother-in-law on his LE Monroe late season elk hunt....I got so bored I went back and sat in the truck until everyone came back and we could go home. When I left, there were still over 15 bulls on the sidehill and a giant was bedded that those around me were estimating to be a 390 inch bull. The excitement of sitting out in the cold without a tag in hand was hardly motivating. Again, I believe almost all beginning hunters go through the "shooter" stage where the motivation is pulling the trigger and trying to harvest an animal.
> 
> My love of hunting was triggered by my love of the outdoors and especially fishing. I started shooting a bow when I was relatively young and I was enrolled in the hunter ed program as part of my boy scout group. Shooting a bow resulted in my desire to hunt deer. Had I not been able to get a deer tag, I would have never become someone who loves hunting.
> 
> To me, the mentor program is an absolute success if hit helps one kid learn to love hunting.


Again, I guess it depends if you like the outdoors. You saying you were around 390" elk and could care less is the exact attitude I fear we are feeding our youth. If you could shoot them great, otherwise oh well. This doesn't exactly fuel the conservationist I hope our sport can recruit for the future.

Love of the outdoors seems to contradict that. If you love the outdoors, just not when its with someone else having a tag.. well, I guess I just don't understand.

If it can help one kid learn to love hunting that's great. However, is it the best way? If a charity can save one kids life you can't call it bad. If it could be better set up to save 10 kids life, which solution is best?

We are recruiting one kid, while giving false ideas to hundreds of other kids about what hunting, especially in Utah, actually entails. We are changing laws for this, which are poaching for adults. To follow the baseball analogy, we are changing all the rules of the game, then expecting them to think differently when they enter the real game and real rules. Bend them to a point? Sure. How far do we bend because "it's a great program" with no actual data? That's why these changes concern me. We are fueling a program that we only have anecdotal evidence to support. I wasn't against Gen1, except the LE/OIAL part. But we keep making revisions for no real reason.

I think it's important to say I am pro mentorship. I just think we are making a huge to-do when you can take hunter safety, get a tag, and go hunt before the program. The focus for mentorship has been on the privileges, rarely do the talk about the most influential part: The Mentor. Do we have a guidebook for that? Classes? Etc? Sure don't... But hey, you can shoot two bucks this year!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Love of the outdoors seems to contradict that. If you love the outdoors, just not when its with someone else having a tag.. well, I guess I just don't understand.


My love of the outdoors comes down to the idea of being more of an active participant rather than a casual observer. I felt like I had wasted a good day that could have been spent fishing. I was mostly irritated that we had a number of good bulls that we/he could have pursued but didn't...and we were waiting for a chance at a 390 inch bull that never came. None of it made sense to me.

I guess it comes down to what I would love more--sitting on a sidehill in the cold looking at the same 15 elk all day, or actively pursuing my own game with my own tag. Which would you think is more enjoyable?

Personally, I could sit on a lake all day long in my float tube without catching a single fish....IF I am fishing. But, doing the same thing all day long and not having my line in the water....well, that isn't all that much fun.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> My love of the outdoors comes down to the idea of being more of an active participant rather than a casual observer. I felt like I had wasted a good day that could have been spent fishing.


Fair enough. The problem is that the youth would replace "fishing" with "xbox" or something else. I think if pulling the trigger is the difference between recruiting them or not, we are in trouble.

On the other hand, if the kid can handle not being successful, or says "dad, fishing is more fun" I can live with that. I think this further supports the idea that small game/waterfowl is a great recruiter. You can pull that trigger and participate all day long!


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Come on wyoming 2 utah, Isn't fishing just hunting in the water. I know that's how I perceive it. The little league analogy doesn't sit right to me either. Isn't little league like small game. The varsity team finally getting the tag. Some kids wait 3 years to play varsity. You know that since you coach a high school team too. Also some kids are lucky or blessed to be good early in life a freshman playing varsity. Drawing multiple tags etc.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Also you seem to be complaining about going on a hunt. Don't go next time. Just cause you can't kill something. Should of took a shotgun and hunted grouse. Or there are plenty of lakes you could of fished on the Monroe.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Hey Randomelk, you've been spot on with how I feel about this whole mentor program. Thanks for putting it into words much better than I can.

Also, when these guys keep saying that everyone in camp should have a tag, I keep getting the image in my mind of the movie "second hand lions".
You know the scene where the lion escapes out into the corn patch and the whole family, (including all the kids) grab a rifle and head into the corn to kill themselves a lion.:shock:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Brookie said:


> Come on wyoming 2 utah, Isn't fishing just hunting in the water. I know that's how I perceive it..


Me too...and just like hunting with my bro-in-law on that trip, I was bored because my line wasn't in the water. Had I been able to cast a little bit, it would have been fun even if I couldn't catch something. But, as it was, I wasn't even able to play in the game. So, I sat on the water and watched others hunt.

Personally, I have never really been into small game. For me, little league was getting the tag. Jumping up to varsity was having the skills to actually be able to harvest something. To me, little league is general season....


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Brookie said:


> Also you seem to be complaining about going on a hunt. Don't go next time. Just cause you can't kill something. Should of took a shotgun and hunted grouse. Or there are plenty of lakes you could of fished on the Monroe.


In general, I haven't. Instead, I usually look for something to do where I can actively participate. In those situations where I have gone I have always been there to help or mentor a younger hunter with a tag. Those experiences are fun....kind of like helping my kid cast his rod!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Just some more food for thought:
https://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/b...-deer-hunts-are-they-good-or-bad-for-hunting/
Pretty interesting article...I am obviously on the "Good" side and you guys seem to be on the "bad" side.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

wyoming2utah said:


> Just some more food for thought:
> https://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/b...-deer-hunts-are-they-good-or-bad-for-hunting/
> Pretty interesting article...I am obviously on the "Good" side and you guys seem to be on the "bad" side.


I don't see it as an issue "good" vs "bad". Rather, I see it as an issue of "effective" vs. "ineffective". It looks to me like there's no evidence to suggest that youth hunts are effective at increasing hunter retention over time.

I recognize the good aspects of special youth hunts while still holding the opinion that they're probably ineffective. I loved the youth waterfowl hunt when I was a teenager. It was my favorite day of the whole year, and I have a lot of good memories from the youth hunts I got to go on. They're not what made me a duck hunter, though. I was hooked well before I was even old enough to carry a gun (back when there were age restrictions for small game). I tagged along with my dad all season long. I'm pretty sure my enthusiasm for it all was the reason Dad even went half the time.

Over the years, we took a number of neighbor kids on the youth hunt. They had fun, got out and experienced some things they wouldn't have seen any other way, and made some memories. Obviously, there's plenty of good associated with that. But... not a single one of those kids we took is a hunter today. They just didn't have the enthusiasm to keep going with it.

Good? Absolutely. Effective? I'm not so sure...

The fact that I was hooked well before I could ever carry a gun is why I have a hard time believing the mentor program is going to make much of a difference in the long run. The simple difference between pulling the trigger vs. watching someone else do it just doesn't seem very big to me. You obviously feel differently, and that's ok. We all hunt for different reasons. I just wish we were actually collecting some data to help us learn something over the long run, instead of going with what sounds nice and hoping it works.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

If there's one thing I've learned over the years its this: We all hunt for a variety of very different reasons, and the definition of success also varies quite a bit. I've yet to see anyone else hunt for the reasons I do... hence my feelings towards regulations and rule changes differ quite a bit from the mindsets of alot of people.


-DallanC


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Kids that have parents who hunt are more likely to become hunters than those who don't....I am worried about trying to recruit kids like me, who don't have parents interested in hunting!


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I guess I understand w2u, but you still haven't said how you got started in hunting. Maybe I missed it somewhere. Good luck on your bball season


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Brookie said:


> Good luck on your bball season


Hah! We'll need it! So far luck hasn't been good...injuries are already hurting us!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> Just some more food for thought:
> https://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/b...-deer-hunts-are-they-good-or-bad-for-hunting/
> Pretty interesting article...I am obviously on the "Good" side and you guys seem to be on the "bad" side.


Finally got to read this. I am PRO youth hunts. We have them for small game, we have tags set aside for youth, we have a special elk hunt for youth.

I am not for the extent we are now going, up to and including killing multiple antlered animals of the same species.

The strong part, that the GOOD has going against them is what I keep saying in my posts.. where is the data?

From your article:

_I could only find one study conducted on the effects of youth deer hunting season on deer hunter retention. In 2001, Missouri began better tracking the age distribution of deer hunters. Unfortunately, the Show Me State hasn't seen more youth hunters turn into lifelong hunters.

"In the 16-30 age group, we just haven't seen more hunters continue to deer hunt," Sumners explained. "From 2001 to 2013, we went from roughly 40,000 hunters under age 16 to 72,000 hunters."_

So they almost double their youth hunters and see almost no increase in their adult hunters. At least they are trying to study it.

I am against the excuses to do the work. To say we can't track if a mentee harvests is saying we will never commit to data. To say writing the rule would be difficult.. I have employees majoring in English that could write it in a day.

I think it is important to involve our youth. Entitlement is different than Involvement. The extent we are going has definitely entered entitlement.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Ok, I'm going to say something that's going to make a few of you sick to your stomachs but it's the truth.
The thing right now that's getting more of our youth involved or interested in big game hunting at a much higher rate than the mentor program can only dream about ......

is the flat brimmer's, which are taking social media by storm.
It's the Zac Griffith and Hushin types that the kids are interested in. They are the ones that are making hunting "hip" and "cool" and they are getting a huge following on social media. 
I can only pray that they try to be good examples and show good sportsmanship and ethics.


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