# Speed Kills?



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Reading through DU magazine this evening, came across Bourjaily's article, "The Need For Speed". It supports what I've been saying for years, that high speed steel isn't necessary and offers only marginal benefits over the slower stuff. The B&P shells I bought so many years ago is 1410FPS and is very effective. In the article, he says that at 40 yards, a 1300FPS load is just 45FPS slower than a 1450FPS load. In other words, 70% of that extra 150FPS muzzle velocity is wasted. The faster the velocity at the muzzle, the faster it loses speed.

So, the old adage of "speed kills" is incorrect. Unless you're talking about the hypervelocity stuff, which apparently kills guns. I'll shoot the slower stuff. Went up for grouse yesterday using an ounce of 6s at 1185FPS out of a 16 gauge. Works fine:


----------



## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

paddler said:


> Reading through DU magazine this evening, came across Bourjaily's article, "The Need For Speed". It supports what I've been saying for years, that high speed steel isn't necessary and offers only marginal benefits over the slower stuff. The B&P shells I bought so many years ago is 1410FPS and is very effective. In the article, he says that at 40 yards, a 1300FPS load is just 45FPS slower than a 1450FPS load. In other words, 70% of that extra 150FPS muzzle velocity is wasted. The faster the velocity at the muzzle, the faster it loses speed.
> 
> So, the old adage of "speed kills" is incorrect. Unless you're talking about the hypervelocity stuff, which apparently kills guns. I'll shoot the slower stuff. Went up for grouse yesterday using an ounce of 6s at 1185FPS out of a 16 gauge. Works fine:
> 
> View attachment 122993


That's a beautiful gun, Iove that finish.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Its marketing hype just like anything else.


----------



## sketch21 (Jul 11, 2013)

Yes, speed kills. Don't do drugs kids! :grin:


----------



## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

1 1/4oz of good steel shot at 1400 is all you will ever need. They perfected that load years ago and they've been trying to "improve" on it ever since. Fancy shot and wads certainly don't kill more ducks!


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

It's the Indian not the arrow!


----------



## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

JerryH said:


> It's the *proud Native American* not the arrow!


FIFY :grin:

I'd say a better pattern is more important than speed. Match a good pattern with either the slow or fast load and use the one than shoots the best.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Seems that air drag is proportional to the square of the speed. If it was just linearly proportional, a 10% increase in speed would cause a 10% increase in drag. But because it's proportional to the speed squared, a 10% increase in speed means a 21% increase in drag. So it seems that if you increase velocity enough, you eventually go backwards. Oh, wait...


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

paddler said:


> Seems that air drag is proportional to the square of the speed. If it was just linearly proportional, a 10% increase in speed would cause a 10% increase in drag. But because it's proportional to the speed squared, a 10% increase in speed means a 21% increase in drag. So it seems that if you increase velocity enough, you eventually go backwards. Oh, wait...


Or if you go slower you actually go faster


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

JuniorPre 360 said:


> FIFY :grin:
> 
> I'd say a better pattern is more important than speed. Match a good pattern with either the slow or fast load and use the one than shoots the best.


After I typed that & hit post I thought I should have worded it better.


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

And for hell sakes don't run out and buy 3 1/2" super duper magnum loads. What a bunch of marketing bull$hit those are. If you need a 3 1/2" load to shoot a frickin duck, then you probably should just buy a 10 gauge, or quit altogether. :-?:-?


----------



## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Fowlmouth said:


> And for hell sakes don't run out and buy 3 1/2" super duper magnum loads. What a bunch of marketing bull$hit those are. If you need a 3 1/2" load to shoot a frickin duck, then you probably should just buy a 10 gauge, or quit altogether. :-?:-?


#20gaugemafia


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

goosefreak said:


> #20gaugemafia


The 20 gauge with modern factory steel loads is more than adequate for most situations; ducks over decoys, tight quarters, and in situations where you can pick and choose your shots. I'll still take my 12s out for open water shoots or when targeting ducks like canvasbacks, where shots tend to be longer at ducks that offer mostly passing shots. When hunting cans, I want every advantage. That being said, the one I shot last week was in a group of three that circled me three times. I shot it at close range, and nearly rolled my canoe in the process. If I just hunted mallards, I'd shoot nothing but 20 gauge.









This little hen ruddy swam around in the can decoys for a couple hours. Couldn't bring myself to shoot it, but I really want to try them.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

I remember in the lead shot days shooting 1 7/8 ounces of #6 or #4 lead. Maybe that's why I have shoulder problems now but man it would rock a mallard at pretty good ranges.


----------



## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

LostLouisianian said:


> I remember in the lead shot days shooting 1 7/8 ounces of #6 or #4 lead. Maybe that's why I have shoulder problems now but man it would rock a mallard at pretty good ranges.


That's dang close to a turkey load, aint it? My dad in law was telling me how when he was young the all-around goose killer load was a 1 3/8oz load of nickel-plated lead #2's. Probably the equivalent today would be ITX or Hevi, but that would sure put a dent in your wallet as well as your shoulder!


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

goosefreak said:


> #20gaugemafia


I love it when a guy hits the 20ga light switch.

Shot a couple of boxes so far and Don Corleone status!

Chop-em


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Pumpgunner said:


> That's dang close to a turkey load, aint it? My dad in law was telling me how when he was young the all-around goose killer load was a 1 3/8oz load of nickel-plated lead #2's. Probably the equivalent today would be ITX or Hevi, but that would sure put a dent in your wallet as well as your shoulder!


Never went turkey hunting before but I suppose it could be a turkey load. Back when I was a teen and 20 something the 3" magnum lead was either 1 5/8 oz (mostly Winchester) or 1 7/8 oz (mostly Remington). A lot of times I had the lighter load in the chamber followed by the two heavier loads. Broke my nose once shooting the heavy loads....don't ask ok just trust me.


----------



## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

JerryH said:


> I love it when a guy hits the 20ga light switch.
> 
> Shot a couple of boxes so far and Don Corleone status!
> 
> Chop-em


It's a light switch with the 20 but elite status does not come until you have mastered the 28

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

hamernhonkers said:


> It's a light switch with the 20 but elite status does not come until you have mastered the 28
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I didn't shine so well with the 28 in Canada this year. But the mighty 20 roared!


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Is it called a 28 gauge because a box of steel shot is 28$?


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

LostLouisianian said:


> Is it called a 28 gauge because a box of steel shot is 28$?


My thoughts exactly...

I don't feel any need to switch to a 28 or 20 when 12 gauge ammo costs the same or less.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Clarq said:


> My thoughts exactly...
> 
> I don't feel any need to switch to a 28 or 20 when 12 gauge ammo costs the same or less.


Lots of people say that....until they try the 20 gauge.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

paddler said:


> Lots of people say that....until they try the 20 gauge.


If you know of anyone who has either a Remington 1100 20 gauge or Browning 20 gauge for sale I'd like to discuss with them. Would prefer the 1100 20 gauge in 3 in magnum config.


----------



## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Under 5 bucks a box if you roll your own steel. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

JerryH said:


> I didn't shine so well with the 28 in Canada this year. But the mighty 20 roared!


That's not good to hear. Loads or shooter?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

hamernhonkers said:


> That's not good to hear. Loads or shooter?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I did shoot a few geese one morning with the 28. I guess this year it was my salesmanship. Birds didn't drop down to shotgun barrel heights. So the 28 laid in its case. Now I'm kicking myself for not shooting it more. Greed gets the best of you up there.


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

paddler said:


> Lots of people say that....until they try the 20 gauge.


I used a 20 gauge for the first 3 seasons of my waterfowling career. It worked. Then I outgrew it (it was a youth model), and switched to a 12 gauge. It works about the same. I've got nothing against using a 20 gauge for waterfowl, but I haven't really missed it either.



hamernhonkers said:


> Under 5 bucks a box if you roll your own steel.


Are you including startup costs in that number? It's easy to feel good about your cost savings if you ignore the initial $200+ you spent to equip yourself for reloading. 

At the rate I go through ammo (maybe 5-6 boxes a season, lately), the equipment would take awhile to pay itself back. Maybe one day I'll shoot enough to justify it.


----------



## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Clarq said:


> Are you including startup costs in that number? It's easy to feel good about your cost savings if you ignore the initial $200+ you spent to equip yourself for reloading.
> 
> At the rate I go through ammo (maybe 5-6 boxes a season, lately), the equipment would take awhile to pay itself back. Maybe one day I'll shoot enough to justify it.


Ya, thirty years later I'd guess that start up cost of $85 would equal about
.00000000000000001 cents per shell loaded now LOL

In all reality though you can get factory loads of steel for killing ducks for as low as $10 a box or as high as......... well what ever the heck there asking for hevi shot now.

But ya for only 5 or 6 boxes a season then a new gun, new loader and all that stuff is probable not worth it or says you have your priorities all mixed up&#129315;

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

JerryH said:


> I did shoot a few geese one morning with the 28. I guess this year it was my salesmanship. Birds didn't drop down to shotgun barrel heights. So the 28 laid in its case. Now I'm kicking myself for not shooting it more. Greed gets the best of you up there.


Would I be reading that correctly then that you only took steel loads on the trip for the little gun?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Clarq 

I've spent my money on wine, women, song and reloading equipment. The rest i just waisted


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

hamernhonkers said:


> Would I be reading that correctly then that you only took steel loads on the trip for the little gun?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Well I had Bismuth, HW13 and some TSS for the little gun. I should of gave it a go we had 50 & 60 bird days. Missed opportunities for sure. I don't know what I was thinking. John was having such hard time with his gun & i was enjoying playing cleanup. I had my personal best trip. I shot 7 true triples on snows with a 20. Love that little 390!!


----------



## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

JerryH said:


> Well I had Bismuth, HW13 and some TSS for the little gun. I should of gave it a go we had 50 & 60 bird days. Missed opportunities for sure. I don't know what I was thinking. John was having such hard time with his gun & i was enjoying playing cleanup. I had my personal best trip. I shot 7 true triples on snows with a 20. Love that little 390!!


That's some sweet shooting Jerry!! I hear ya, I did the little 20 for 7 or 8 years straight until the 28 project started 3 years ago. The 20 sure is a fun bore and sure proves you don't need mighty magnums to kill ducks and geese. I wish at times I wasn't so addicted to the 28 cause I have 6 different little 20's that I need to get out of the safe&#129314;

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

JerryH said:


> Clarq
> 
> I've spent my money on wine, women, song and reloading equipment. The rest i just waisted


Funny, I've wasted my money on drinks and women and just spent the rest. :?


----------



## Stimmy (Sep 10, 2007)

hamernhonkers said:


> That's some sweet shooting Jerry!! I hear ya, I did the little 20 for 7 or 8 years straight until the 28 project started 3 years ago. The 20 sure is a fun bore and sure proves you don't need mighty magnums to kill ducks and geese. I wish at times I wasn't so addicted to the 28 cause I have 6 different little 20's that I need to get out of the safe&#129314;
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


HH, what 28 are you shooting. I have a over/under, but want to sell it and get an autoloader. anybody interested in a nice little 28?


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Stimmy said:


> HH, what 28 are you shooting. I have a over/under, but want to sell it and get an autoloader. anybody interested in a nice little 28?


Why would you sell an O/U to buy an autoloader?


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

One thing I have noticed this year after shooting the 20 gauge is my shot to kill ratio has increased dramatically. I am not shooting as many 20 ga. shells to kill my birds. The last two trips out I have used my 12 ga. and it is a noticeable difference in the number of shots it has taken me. I'm going back to the 20 gauge. I'm sold!


----------



## Stimmy (Sep 10, 2007)

paddler said:


> Why would you sell an O/U to buy an autoloader?


just feels better........


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

paddler said:


> Why would you sell an O/U to buy an autoloader?


3rd shell


----------



## UCChris (Oct 26, 2017)

Kinetic energy, which is put in terms of foot pounds (in the US) when dealing with projectiles, is calculated using both projectile weight and speed. So saying speed kills is saying higher kinetic energy kills. Which is true, to a point. I come from an airgun hunting background and have recently started moving into firearms hunting. For those of us who use airguns, some of the FPE (foot pounds of energy) numbers that people throw out as minimum are crazy! I've taken numerous *****, groundhogs, and jackrabbits with a gun that puts out 14 fpe at the muzzle. That puts about 8-10 fpe on the target. That's the same energy that a standard velocity .22lr has at 950 yards! 

So, my point is, does speed kill? Yes, it does. Does speed kill faster? No, it doesn't. And it's certainly not worth accepting lower accuracy, as in the case of most .22lr, or accepting more wear on your gun, as in the case of a shotty. 

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Fowlmouth said:


> One thing I have noticed this year after shooting the 20 gauge is my shot to kill ratio has increased dramatically. I am not shooting as many 20 ga. shells to kill my birds. The last two trips out I have used my 12 ga. and it is a noticeable difference in the number of shots it has taken me. I'm going back to the 20 gauge. I'm sold!


I know this doesn't make any sense. But I swear the 20 hits harder.
Or I guess I'm subconsciously trying to make a better shot?


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

JerryH said:


> 3rd shell


and 4th and 5th :shock:


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Stimmy said:


> just feels better........


You mean more clubby and less dynamic, right? There's no way any repeater can be as lively in your hands as a nice double gun. It's measurable, called the moment of inertia.



JerryH said:


> 3rd shell


Mostly a salute in my case. Occasionally I'll connect with my third shot, but then you finish quicker. Who needs that?



UCChris said:


> Kinetic energy, which is put in terms of foot pounds (in the US) when dealing with projectiles, is calculated using both projectile weight and speed. So saying speed kills is saying higher kinetic energy kills. Which is true, to a point. I come from an airgun hunting background and have recently started moving into firearms hunting. For those of us who use airguns, some of the FPE (foot pounds of energy) numbers that people throw out as minimum are crazy! I've taken numerous *****, groundhogs, and jackrabbits with a gun that puts out 14 fpe at the muzzle. That puts about 8-10 fpe on the target. That's the same energy that a standard velocity .22lr has at 950 yards!
> 
> So, my point is, does speed kill? Yes, it does. Does speed kill faster? No, it doesn't. And it's certainly not worth accepting lower accuracy, as in the case of most .22lr, or accepting more wear on your gun, as in the case of a shotty.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


KE doesn't kill. Penetration to vital organs kills. E= 1/2MV2, or 1/2 mass x velocity squared. Since the velocity is squared in this formula, it overemphasizes the importance of velocity. Momentum, which probably more likely predicts penetration, is MV, or simply mass x velocity. Terminal ballistics is very interesting and I've read a fair amount on the subject. If you penetrate to the chest cavity and collapse the lungs or cause major bleeding, or interrupt neural function, hitting the brain or break the neck, or break one wing and one leg to anchor the bird, you should be able to recover it. That explains why your pellet gun can be lethal, or why an arrow can kill cleanly, neither of which has much KE.



JerryH said:


> I know this doesn't make any sense. But I swear the 20 hits harder.
> Or I guess I'm subconsciously trying to make a better shot?


Confidence?


----------



## UCChris (Oct 26, 2017)

paddler said:


> KE doesn't kill. Penetration to vital organs kills. E= 1/2MV2, or 1/2 mass x velocity squared. Since the velocity is squared in this formula, it overemphasizes the importance of velocity. Momentum, which probably more likely predicts penetration, is MV, or simply mass x velocity. Terminal ballistics is very interesting and I've read a fair amount on the subject. If you penetrate to the chest cavity and collapse the lungs or cause major bleeding, or interrupt neural function, hitting the brain or break the neck, or break one wing and one leg to anchor the bird, you should be able to recover it. That explains why your pellet gun can be lethal, or why an arrow can kill cleanly, neither of which has much KE.


You're right. Penetration is a mixture of the area and energy of the projectile. Higher KE results in more penetration, if area of the projectile stays the same.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

JerryH said:


> I know this doesn't make any sense. But I swear the 20 hits harder.
> Or I guess I'm subconsciously trying to make a better shot?


I thought maybe it is a mental thing, but when the 20 gauge consistently outperforms my 12 I have to wonder. I think a lot of it could be that the 20 has a much better pattern. Sounds crazy I know.


----------



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Gauge has nothing to do with how hard a pellet hits the bird. A #5 pellet carries the same exact potential energy at a given velocity weather it is shot from a .410 or an 8 gauge. Now, if we are taking stuff like density of pattern, how often you seem to be hitting birds, how much you like the feel of a certain gun, flight time until impact, blah,blah,blah, that's a whole different discussion. I personally think most of this stuff is a lot more important than gauge. The thing with gauge is, the bigger the gauge, the more shot you can put in the air, and, at least in theory, the more kills you should make.

Oh, and Paddler, that is a really purdy gun.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

BPturkeys said:


> Gauge has nothing to do with how hard a pellet hits the bird. A #5 pellet carries the same exact potential energy at a given velocity weather it is shot from a .410 or an 8 gauge. Now, if we are taking stuff like density of pattern, how often you seem to be hitting birds, how much you like the feel of a certain gun, flight time until impact, blah,blah,blah, that's a whole different discussion. I personally think most of this stuff is a lot more important than gauge. The thing with gauge is, the bigger the gauge, the more shot you can put in the air, and, at least in theory, the more kills you should make.
> 
> Oh, and Paddler, that is a really purdy gun.


Theoretically, a given shot charge will have a shorter shot string and so pattern better out of a 12 gauge than a 20 gauge. It will also have fewer deformed pellets, again contributing to better patterns. The latter isn't much of an issue with steel, though.

Thanks, BP. Not a Purdey, though, a Piotti. I take it out once a year or so on nice days for grouse.


----------



## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Stimmy said:


> HH, what 28 are you shooting. I have a over/under, but want to sell it and get an autoloader. anybody interested in a nice little 28?


I'm using a 2 Tri star vipor g2's. And weatherby sa 08 for and semi's. Then an 870 express and a wingmaster for pumps. With a red label, citori, and a calvery for o/u's.

Attached a couple of pics of the wingmaster and the newest vipor g2 wood. Was gonna get an a400 but there just to pretty to beat up chasing ducks lol.























Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

paddler said:


> Thanks, BP. Not a Purdey, though, a Piotti. I take it out once a year or so on nice days for grouse.


Next time you are in Italy, go ahead and pick one up for me. A Perazzi would be fine also.


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Hamern

And I thought I had it bad.

Great arsenal!!


----------

