# pointing vs. flushing dogs



## massmanute

I have been reading about pointing vs. flushing dogs. I realize this topic periodically comes up for discussion, but I fresh discussion is always of interest. (If you aren't interested then please do me a favor an skip the rest of this thread and refrain from commenting.)

How is the best way to go about deciding whether a pointing or a flushing dog would be better for an individual. In particular, what are the working styles of the dogs, and how do those styles match up with different hunting conditions (habitat and game species) and the characteristics of the human hunter?

I suppose one could also consider this in terms of a few breeds: Springer Spaniel, Labrador, Brittany, or German Short hair.

Thanks.


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## TEX-O-BOB

Lets leave breeds out of this. All you'll get is a bunch of bias opinions. Besides, the GWP is the best gundog out there bar none! :mrgreen:  

The one and only factor you should look at when buying a dog is what bird(s) you primarily hunt. If all you hunt is waterfowl then a retrieving dog is your answer. Pheasants can be handled by either pointing or retrieving breeds with good success, but the longer I'm alive, and the more miles I put in chasing these counterfeit, sneaky, running, back door bastards the more I've come to realize that a close working flusher like a springer would be the cats meow for putting more ****-birds in the pot. For ALL other species of birds, quail, huns, chukar, sharptail/sage/forest grouse, wood****, and prairie chickens, a pointing dog is better suited.

That's my .002


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## bwhntr

Good answer.


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## Airborne

I mostly agree with Tex (except english pointer are better  ) and would add a couple of considerations.

First off are you actually going to hunt--I am talking 30+ field days a year--most guys don't so I say that most guys would be better off with a porch pizzer family dog if you just want a dog. I think its unfair to a bird dog to keep them in a kennel 360 days a year, take them out 4 or 5 times and then wonder why they suck as a bird dog. In my mind if you are not going to hunt at 30 days a year then a dog is not worth the cost or time. Take up another hobby like knitting or Utah's most popular hobby-->couch sittin. 

In my mind you basically have 2 types of birds that you can hunt on a regular basis (long season/bird numbers) and do it successfully in this state. 

First is waterfowl, Utah has some decent waterfowl hunting and if you are an avid waterfowler then get a retriever, train it and hunt it. The season is long and an avid guy can expect to hunt over 30 days a season (1 day most weekends, plus xmas break and Thanksgiving).

The second is chukar, if you like to hike and are a glutton for pain then chukar is your game. Get a pointer and hunt it--pointers require little ground training and a whole bunch of on the job training--that's why I love em, all you have to do is hunt em a bunch and they will figure it out.

Pheasant dogs in this state only make sense if you hunt plain states for 3+ weeks a year or you spend that many days at a pheasant farm (lame  ). We simply do not have the season length or the bird numbers to justify a 'Utah' pheasant dog.

This is my reasoning and you may disagree, most Utahns would--> very few guys actually get out enough to justify the cost of a dog. That is why this state has so many folks that own $15k snowmobiles and use them 5 times a year--same for side by sides, ATVs, Boats, giant house/horse trailers, and don't get me started on horses! It's all about return on investment and most Utahs would be better off renting than owning for the amount of use-->same goes for bird dogs. Its all about 30+ days a year.


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## jeff788

I'm pretty new at this, but based on my limited experience both Tex and Airborne are spot on. I went through this decision about two years ago and settled on a pointing breed, specifically a versatile breed (a GWP after some good advice from Tex and others). My rationale was that, as Airborne pointed out, we really have good public land hunting for two types of birds: waterfowl and chukars. You could argue that forest grouse are a third, although I've yet to figure them out, but from what I hear any chukar dog will do pretty well at forest grouse too.

I settled on a versatile breed because a good one will retrieve ducks all season long, and will point chukars, and grouse. This worked out well for my first season. Early in the season when it was still warm I hunted sage grouse, forest grouse, and ducks. After it cooled off I mostly hunted chukars, along with a few odd duck hunts when I got tired of hiking up hill. The nice thing about a versatile breed is that regardless of what type of birds you want to hunt on a given day, you've got a dog that can do it. Of course, the downside is that you have to put up with people calling your dog ugly  . Here's a few highlights from last season:

My pup pointing a pair of chukars the last week of the hunt:
[attachment=1:2jrz3hhe]Allie_pointing_in_fog_cropped.jpg[/attachment:2jrz3hhe]
Here she is with the kids and some ducks that she retrieved from the GSL in January. It was 10 degrees that day!
[attachment=0:2jrz3hhe]Allie_kids_and_ducks.jpg[/attachment:2jrz3hhe]


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## Packfish

Nothing prettier than an UglyD- and few better buddies.


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## Airborne

Nice pics Jeff788! You make an excellent point--> there are dog breeds out there that are 'jack of all trades and master of none' If you are a guy who likes variety then that may be the best option.

I have never hunted with an ugly versatile dog, my upland experience has been centered around English Pointers (EP) with an occasional hunt with a buddy who runs short hairs. Few breeds can cover as much ground as an EP, I view them at being masters of the chukar hills. 

Short hairs are good dogs, they generally don't cover as much ground as an EP but enough for most guys. Some people feel short hairs are 'smarter' than EPs but I think this has more to do with them being good house pets as well as hunting dogs a little better than EPs. An EP that can cover 25+ miles in rough country in a single hunt is going to be a little more high strung than a short hair who ranges a hundred yards ahead of you.

How far do ugly dogs range? I have heard they have a mean side towards other dogs, is this true?

I didn't mention grouse as one of Utahs better species--probably should have, I am usually bow hunting when they are hunted in September. Not a lot of folks hunt the dusky grouse past October in my experience.

These are my observations--maybe someone else will disagree, I don't claim to know all about dogs--fact is I am still pretty green but I do hunt more than most and have been schooled in the ways of the chukar by the best upland hunters in the state so take it for what it is worth.


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## Packfish

I can tell you my PudelP wants to be friends with any dog that wants to be- I can also say he won't take any crap from another dog. His range is what the cover dictates- never been around a dog that hunts close when grouse hunting in the forest and then stretches out chukar hunting but certainly not an EP for range. When I first picked him up 5 years ago it was a change for me- but he has impressed me enough to the point where I will be picking another one up and the end of the month.


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## bwhntr

Any intelligent pointing breed should be able to hunt multiple situations. I have an English Pointer that will range 800+ yards from horseback in the chukar hills, then adjust himself to under 40 yards for the forest grouse. 100 yards at a NSTRA trial, and so on depending on cover. That is what I call a well bred, educated pointer. I don't think this behavior is breed specific. It has everything to do with the dogs experience.


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## jeff788

Regarding versatile dogs being aggressive with other dogs, I have limited experience with them, but I did a lot of research on them before I bought my Drahthaar. From my experience and my research, I don't think that this claim holds any water so long as a dog is well socialized. My DD just wants to play with any dog she meets, and she's really good with my kids. These dogs are bred to be "sharp" on fur, meaning that they are bred to be aggressive toward cats, foxes, etc. The German system that breeds DD's requires this, but they also breed dogs for temperament as well. If you've ever seen a VDD breed show the judges, who are generally strangers to the dog, must thoroughly inspect the dog's coat, testicles, open the dog's mouth to inspect it's teeth and bite, etc. Any dog that is bred must go through this, so I don't think a lot of "man sharp" DD's get bred.

As far as range goes, what I've seen in my pup so far is that in the chukar hills I've had her on point at 400 yards before, but she generally hunts around 200 yards in open country. In thick cover she'll usually hunt at 40-60 yards. A bwhntr pointed out, any well-bred pointing dog should do this naturally. Where the difference comes is how far they will naturally range in open country. I haven't hunted over many different pointing breeds, but what my research turned up was that as a general rule EP's tend to range the farthest of the pointing breeds, and probably Griffon's tend to hunt the closest, but of course it varies from dog to dog, bloodlines, training, etc.


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## Bret

I have never owned a flushing dog. I can tell you that I have found myself standing outside a heavy patch of cover or looking down in a deep gully with a setter on point and having no way to flush the bird numerous times. If you walk in you can't see to shoot if you stand and wait the bird may never flush.....I always think if that were a Springer this would be over, and that bird would be in the bag. That being said a can't imagine hunting without the point. I agree that a flusher is probably the better choice for killing pheasants, but watching a seasoned pointing dog that knows and understands how to handle them is a thing of beauty. That has to be my favorite thing in the outdoors.


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## TEX-O-BOB

I'm with ya Bret. When a pointing dog learns how to handle pheasants honestly and gets a big wild two year old rooster pinned it doesn't get much better than that. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does it's magical.


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## bwhntr

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I'm with ya Bret. When a pointing dog learns how to handle pheasants honestly and gets a big wild two year old rooster pinned it doesn't get much better than that. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does it's magical.


When he does get to that point, it means its time to steady him back up for partridge and quail. lol :mrgreen:


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## Bret

:lol: An intelligent well bred dog will do it on his own.lmao


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## bwhntr

Bret said:


> :lol: An intelligent well bred dog will do it on his own.lmao


Lol...I guess I need new dogs! again!


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## Bret

lol


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## Fowlmouth

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Lets leave breeds out of this. All you'll get is a bunch of bias opinions. Besides, the GWP is the best gundog out there bar none! :mrgreen:
> 
> The one and only factor you should look at when buying a dog is what bird(s) you primarily hunt. If all you hunt is waterfowl then a retrieving dog is your answer. Pheasants can be handled by either pointing or retrieving breeds with good success, but the longer I'm alive, and the more miles I put in chasing these counterfeit, sneaky, running, back door bastards the more I've come to realize that a close working flusher like a springer would be the cats meow for putting more ****-birds in the pot. For ALL other species of birds, quail, huns, chukar, sharptail/sage/forest grouse, wood****, and prairie chickens, a pointing dog is better suited.
> 
> That's my .002


Well said Tex, that's my feelings exactly...........Except for the GWP being the best gun dog. We all know labradors are the best for that.


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## hossblur

When I was a teenager I shot for a couple of Springer field trial trainers. Ended up with one. They are BY FAR the best pheasant dog there is. They seemed to be perfect for them, and bred almost for them. HOWEVER, I finally just started shaving mine the flags and ears would get so burred up it was miserable for him.

Had a bad experience with a gun shy shorthair, so I was never a fan.

Enter labs. I had a very good one, and now have a so-so one. I recently picked up one of Sprig Kennels pups, and she is far and above the other two I owned. You have to be on crack to try and compare anything to a good lab. There is no other dog close when it comes to kids. Their fur is mad of teflon. The next cold day that scares a lab will be the first. While their noses aren't comparable to the pointers or springers, there isn't a smarter dog in the field. The puppies are easily the cutest ever. Mine have been good beer drinkers. Sorry boys, but while pointers(shorthairs, EP) are upland specialsts, and springers are pheasant specialists, the lab does them all, and goes one futher, waterfowl. 

I don't live in South Dakota. I live in Utah, in fact N. Utah, and waterfowl is king here so I think you get the dog for what you do most, then be sure to have an all around breed to do the rest. There is a reason the lab is the number one owned do year after year.

And lets face it, there isn't anything uglier than a wirehair!! :lol:


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## bwhntr

That was a silly post.  Waterfowl is king? The lab is the ruler? Lol...I won't argue the swamps, because, well it's the swamps. Apparently you didn't know about the army of birddoggers that chase chukar and huns all fall and winter?  

Btw, ALL pointers retrieve, does your retriever point? Only if he's confused.


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## TEX-O-BOB

> Btw, ALL pointers retrieve


coughcoughcoughbullsh*t!coughcoughcough


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## bwhntr

???

That was a weird response


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## Fowlmouth

The best pheasant dog I ever had period.

















My buddies Setter on point Chukar hunting and Pheasants.

















My current dog I use for every bird hunt. (mostly waterfowl)


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## bwhntr

Great pics!


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## hossblur

Man I agree, I really don't think there is a better dog for pheasants than a springer. As for chukars, look around at how many labs are out chasing those uphill running little bastards. This isn't a pissing contest, the numbers flat out back it up. There are more duck hunters than chukar hunters(hence the waterfowl is king), and there are more labs than anything else, in fact than all the pointers and springers combined. As for all pointers retrieve? Think what you want, but most of us know better. Pointers are specialists. Great upland dogs, piss poor duck dogs(yeah there might be some exceptions), labs excell in the swamp, and are more than capable everywhere else. But that is my bias, like I said for straight upland game hunting, I personally am going with a springer rather than a pointer.


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## bwhntr

I made my pointer retrieve a duck once...he never forgave me.


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## bwhntr

Also,I would love to see the labs that are ruling the chukar hills.  

I will conclude with this...a good birddog is a good birddog.


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## Fowlmouth

[quote="bwhntr"
I will conclude with this...a good birddog is a good birddog.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. I really enjoy hunting with pointers and flushers, it always amazes me the different talents they have in the field. Simply put, dogs are the best part of hunting for me.


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## TEX-O-BOB

> I will conclude with this...a good birddog is a good birddog.
> 
> My thoughts exactly. I really enjoy hunting with pointers and flushers, it always amazes me the different talents they have in the field. Simply put, dogs are the best part of hunting for me.


Something I think we all can agree on! Hunting birds without a dog should be illegal...


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## Bret

I disagree. It shouldn't be illegal but it isn't any fun.


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## bwhntr

Bret always having to disagree...**** shag runner...


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## Bret

You would be disagreeable too if you had to comb out all those dang burs.


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## bwhntr

lol 8)


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## TEX-O-BOB

Bret said:


> You would be disagreeable too if you had to comb out all those dang burs.


Shave the shag! :twisted:


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## hossblur

I will go even further, during the muzzleloader they bring the sheep off the mtn., I love watching those border collies work, I find myself watching them more than the hills. I agree with all you, dogs doing what they are bred to do are fascinating


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## Bret

:shock: Shave the wirehair

I don't shave the setters anymore. I really don't have much of a problem with burs. Tic has fairly short hair.


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## Mr Muleskinner

hossblur said:


> I will go even further, during the muzzleloader they bring the sheep off the mtn., I love watching those border collies work, I find myself watching them more than the hills. I agree with all you, dogs doing what they are bred to do are fascinating


Unless it is a pitbull.


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## TEX-O-BOB

Bret said:


> :shock: Shave the wirehair
> 
> I don't shave the setters anymore. I really don't have much of a problem with burs. Tic has fairly short hair.


I don't imagine I'll be pulling many burrs out of Zebs coat either... :lol:


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## bwhntr

...or his beard.


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## bwhntr

There is a NSTRA trial going on this weekend from Friday through Sunday. This is a pointing dog trial with many pointing breeds representing. If you are interested in watching pointing breeds do what they do best then this would be a great place for you to come visit. Many of us birddoggers from this forum will be there. It is at Wasatch Wing & Clay which is west of Lehi, Utah.

http://www.wasatchwingandclay.com/index.php/location.html


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## massmanute

It sounds like Springers are excellent pheasant dogs and reasonably good for ducks. How are they as a grouse dog?


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## hossblur

Mr Muleskinner said:


> hossblur said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will go even further, during the muzzleloader they bring the sheep off the mtn., I love watching those border collies work, I find myself watching them more than the hills. I agree with all you, dogs doing what they are bred to do are fascinating
> 
> 
> 
> Unless it is a pitbull.
Click to expand...

I think watching pitbulls do what they are meant to do can be fascinating, but I believe they are meant to be target practice.


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## Fowlmouth

massmanute said:


> It sounds like Springers are excellent pheasant dogs and reasonably good for ducks. How are they as a grouse dog?


Springers are a versatile breed and can be used to hunt any upland/waterfowl bird. The thing I like most about Springers is they work close to the handler and flush birds in gun range. Nothing worse than a flushing dog that gets way ahead of the handler and flushes birds out of range.


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## Airborne

massmanute said:


> It sounds like Springers are excellent pheasant dogs and reasonably good for ducks. How are they as a grouse dog?


So where are you going to be doing all of this pheasant hunting? Do you live in Utah? The pheasant glory days are gone in this state--sorry fellas, get over it, it cracks me up people still talk about 'pheasant dogs' like they are going to actually hunt them. Of course most folks are more talkers than doers so its understandable, a have to remind myself that a forum is more like a the coffee shop crew, a lot of talk.

Like others have said--determine what bird you are going to hunt and buy the appropriate breed, I will make it easy on ya:

*Waterfowl:* Chesapeake bay retriever, Labrador retriever, Golden retriever

*Grouse:* German Shorthair pointer, English pointer, setter, brittany

*Chuckar:* English Pointer, German Shorthair pointer, setter, brittany

*Jack of all trade, master of none:* wirehair, deutsch drahthaar, poodlepointer

*I am honest with myself, I like to talk big on forums, sit on the couch and will realistically hunt twice a year:* http://www.akc.org/breeds/toy_group.cfm

*I am a big time Utah pheasant hunter:* see above, maybe a 'flushing dog' for the kids to play with the 363 days I am not hunting.

*I am white trash, live in a trailer, drive a monster truck, and have a small you know what:* pit bull, rottweiler

There are your dog breed choices. Pick accordingly :roll:


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## Packfish

It's Pudel and just 8 more days


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## Fowlmouth

Airborne said:


> So where are you going to be doing all of this pheasant hunting? Do you live in Utah? The pheasant glory days are gone in this state--sorry fellas, get over it, it cracks me up people still talk about 'pheasant dogs' like they are going to actually hunt them. Of course most folks are more talkers than doers so its understandable, a have to remind myself that a forum is more like a the coffee shop crew, a lot of talk.
> 
> *I am honest with myself, I like to talk big on forums, sit on the couch and will realistically hunt twice a year:* http://www.akc.org/breeds/toy_group.cfm
> 
> Not everyone lives in Salt Lake County where opportunity is limited. And yes there are still pheasants in areas of the state that can be hunted successfully more than one day a year.


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## Airborne

OK Fowlmouth, 

Post up the pics of all the roosters you killed last year in Utah and how many days hunting you enjoyed. Pheasant farms don't count. Let's see a Utah pheasant hunter who hunts 30 days a year and averages a rooster a day.  

My family runs 300 acres of farm ground in rural Utah county, If I hunt it hard for the opening weekend I can usually limit out--maybe. Even if I took work off that week I could realistically look at killing 6 pheasants tops with 4 to 5 days of hunting and I am lucky enough to have farm ground to hunt. That sure as heck is not worth getting a 'pheasant dog' that I have to feed and train all year. And so ya know I am not a coffee shop hero, send me your email address over PM and I will send ya a couple pics (I don't like to post pics on here anymore). That was two years ago, 2 roosters, 1 raccoon, no dog used, and even with the farm ground I don't think it's worth it to hunt pheasants in this state.


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## Airborne

Packfish said:


> It's Pudel and just 8 more days


They look like poodles to me--cute girly dogs! :lol:

Does yours come with a complimentary pink purse? 

Sorry couldn't stop myself--I am sure they are a fine dog


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## Packfish

I take the ribbing- no problem- dog is worth it- and like you said- easy to talk on the net-
a bird a day in Utah- nope worked **** hard for the few I did get- Only hunt about 5 to 6 days in this state.


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## massmanute

Airborne said:


> massmanute said:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like Springers are excellent pheasant dogs and reasonably good for ducks. How are they as a grouse dog?
> 
> 
> 
> So where are you going to be doing all of this pheasant hunting? Do you live in Utah?
> 
> :roll:
Click to expand...

Hunting club, such as Wasatch Wing and Clay.


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## Airborne

massmanute said:


> Hunting club, such as Wasatch Wing and Clay.


They are not for me but if that is what makes you happy then awesome! continue on with the pheasant dog talk! I did not mean to put anyone down, just was giving my two cents. I think a well bred springer would work out great on a pheasant farm and would make a great house dog. I have no experience with them on grouse. I do know that the hardest part of grouse hunting is finding them so that makes me think a pointer would fair better on those birds, but again I have no experience with springers--maybe I am a coffee shop guy after all, with adding conjecture without a solid base of experience


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## Fowlmouth

Airborne said:


> OK Fowlmouth,
> 
> Post up the pics of all the roosters you killed last year in Utah and how many days hunting you enjoyed. Pheasant farms don't count. Let's see a Utah pheasant hunter who hunts 30 days a year and averages a rooster a day.
> 
> My family runs 300 acres of farm ground in rural Utah county, If I hunt it hard for the opening weekend I can usually limit out--maybe. Even if I took work off that week I could realistically look at killing 6 pheasants tops with 4 to 5 days of hunting and I am lucky enough to have farm ground to hunt. That sure as heck is not worth getting a 'pheasant dog' that I have to feed and train all year. And so ya know I am not a coffee shop hero, send me your email address over PM and I will send ya a couple pics (I don't like to post pics on here anymore). That was two years ago, 2 roosters, 1 raccoon, no dog used, and even with the farm ground I don't think it's worth it to hunt pheasants in this state.


The majority of hunting I do is waterfowl, but I do enjoy a few days of pheasant hunting each year in Utah. I killed a fair amount of birds last fall. If you don't want to feed a dog because you will only use it a couple of days a year then that's your decision. I prefer to hunt birds with a dog. My Labrador gets plenty of opportunity hunting 80 days a year, so for me it's worth feeding him.


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## Airborne

Fowlmouth said:


> The majority of hunting I do is waterfowl, but I do enjoy a few days of pheasant hunting each year in Utah. I killed a fair amount of birds last fall. If you don't want to feed a dog because you will only use it a couple of days a year then that's your decision. I prefer to hunt birds with a dog. My Labrador gets plenty of opportunity hunting 80 days a year, so for me it's worth feeding him.


You are doing it the right way fowlmouth! You have a dog and hunt the heck out of it. I do the same with my dog, he will be a year old come April. Now if you will excuse me I need to take off and go run my pointer in this new snow that dropped last night.


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