# Groups! Who cares?



## James (Oct 7, 2007)

I am constantly amused at people who show their targets on forums and here is this great group you could cover with a nickle. Alas the group is off to the side of the bull 1 inch and an inch low. Not even one shot in the bull.

I don't know about you guys, but I am a hunter and game doesn't hang around to test your group. The question is, *can you hit your target with the first shot*? 
If you can't hit the target, what good is a group? Just a few more misses?

Groups! Who cares? I want to see bullseyes! I want to see game on the table.

Next time you go to the range, get one of those squirrel targets they use for hunters safety, and put it out there 100 yards. The challenge is to put the first shot in the squirrels *head* with your deer rifle, and do it without a bench or sandbags. I don't care, prone, sitting, or whatever stance you might use while in the field. When you learn to do this, you will never have trouble hitting a target as big as a deer or elk.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Oh come on James! I have never done that, but in the game of precision the group is all that matters, simply adjust the scope and all are in the eye. To show it off on a website I would think that the shooter would take the 10 minutes to get that pattern where it belongs but :roll:


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

Well, are you going to take my challenge?

To the hunter it really is all about *hitting the target*.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

James said:


> Well, are you going to take my challenge?
> 
> To the hunter it really is all about *hitting the target*.


Absolutely! How many FIRST chances do I get? :mrgreen:


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

Just one unless you are a group shooter..................................... :lol:


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

But that is how I do shoot in the field. Bi-pod, sandbags and a steady bench. :mrgreen:


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## str8shtr (Jul 4, 2008)

Group size is much more important to the target shooter. As far as a hunting rifle goes if you cann place 3 shots in a paper plate at 100 yrds. EVERYTIME your good to go. Reloaders take great pride in thier groups and if you look at a lot of them posted on the internet most of them are 3 shot groups. If you realy want to test accuracy I have always been told to shoot 5 shot groups. Sorry this is way off the point as shooting at a live animal is different than shooting paper. I guess what Im trying to say is I agree and disagree with you


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

> As far as a hunting rifle goes if you cann place 3 shots in a paper plate at 100 yrds. EVERYTIME your good to go. Reloaders take great pride in thier groups


I don't agree. If you can hit the squirrel in the head at 100 yards *everytime* you are good to go.



> Reloaders take great pride in thier groups


Pride is no virtue. I try to stay humble. This reloader is happy when he can hit the target with the first shot. Whether it be a field mouse or an elk. Whether it be at 5 feet or 500 yards.



> But that is how I do shoot in the field. Bi-pod, sandbags and a steady bench.


You must be a road hunter? :roll:


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Nope. :roll: :mrgreen: James : Look at the list below and the light may go on. :lol:


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

Yep! Furthermore I am willing to bet you can hit the squirrel in the head first shot even without the props? I will also bet you never shoot groups at game? One shot, first shot, Right? That's how it should be.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

You are correct in that hitting the "bullseye" of whatever type is the measure of how accurate YOU can shoot. The repeatable mechanical accuracy of the GUN/ammo/sights is best illustrated by groups to get a handle on the dispersion of the shots. Both are important.

Seeing as how no cartridge is completely flat shooting, we normally will compensate and adjust trajectory on paper to give us the desired maximum point-blank range. Since most testing is done at 100 yards, shooters will adjust point-of-impact (POI) to be from 1 to 3 inches higher than point-of-aim (POA) at 100 yards. Therefore, they are not "in the bull" but are exactly where the shooter intended them to be. And here in Utah with its long ranges, it is less than desireable to have your deer rifle sighted in to hit the center of the bull at 100 yards. Therefore some compensation (low) would be needed.

So during such gun/ammo testing, or sighting-in process - if we get a good group it is only natural to want to post a picture of it indicating for most people how tightly consistent the gun/ammo shoots. Occasionally the sighting in process hasn't been finalized so the group is off the POA. Or several loads were tested, each of which caused different barrel vibrations and affected POI on target.
All this POI off of POA can be adjusted for in the final sight-in.

Groups or the amount of shot dispersion is considered important, even in target shooting where several shots are always required and measured for good reason to eliminate fluke lucky shots winning. Low dispersion aids in making sure your first shot actually will hit your POA.

So while your question "_can you hit your target with the first shot?_" is certainly a noble and worthy one - I think you are totally missing the point of what they are actually trying to illustrate and are just assuming that POI vs. POA is adjusted for on every group picture posted here and missing the importance of how dispersion relates to hitting the target, entirely.


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## stick_man (Sep 10, 2007)

If I am trying out a new load, I want to shoot several shots (5 or more) so I get to know exactly what to expect from the loading. IMO, a consistently tight group, no matter where the holes are in the paper, indicates a pretty good load. It is the first step to being able to "hit the squirrel in the head at 100 yards every shot" with that particular load. The scope (or sites) can be adjusted to move that group to where you want it. If I am shooting a "group" that is all over the target, who knows exactly where that "first shot" is going to hit. If I can't get a good group, I either have a bad load, mechanical failure of my rifle, am flinching, or have some other personal issue preventing a good steady shot. Most of the failures can be corrected. If a load is bad, the only way to correct it is to tweak the load until it is no longer bad (or start all over with different components).

You want to be able to shoot the eye out of the squirrel at 100 yards with your first shot? Find a load that groups tightly, dial in your scope to place that group where you want it, get used to shooting that load, and go find the squirrels.


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## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

James - -O|o-


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

for a hunter it's the first shot that counts. you shouldn't need another one right.
as for the 3 and 5 shot group, my rifle only holds 3 shells that's (1) in the chamber and (2) in the mag. so I only shoot 3 shots at targets for groups.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

Ya, *flyguy7* got it right. :wink:

Now go do what *stickman* sez: "You want to be able to shoot the eye out of the squirrel at 100 yards with your first shot? Find a load that groups tightly, dial in your scope to place that group where you want it, get used to shooting that load, and go find the squirrels."

Don't forget that part about "dial in your scope". Like I said earlier, a group off the target is just so many *misses*.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

OH! By the way,

*Happy New Year!*


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## NHS (Sep 7, 2007)

*HAPPY NEW YEAR JAMES!!!!* :lol: :lol:

Here are 5 misses for you!










no good trouble maker. :mrgreen:


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

The last time I had the 222 out, I shot a couple of groups just to reaffirm that if I miss that squirrels head, it ain't the guns fault!










You gotta love the 222 Rem.
The rifle is a Remington Model 722. 26 inch barrel. It is an over the counter rifle and has never been worked on. It was that good from the factory.

The load was: 
Bullet 55 gr Hornady Spire Point .224
Primer CCI 400
Powder 3031 21.6 grains
COL 2.160
Velocity, from the manual, is supposed to be a little over 3000 FPS


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

:mrgreen: James, we have already discussed my groups on another thread, but I will point out a variation of what has already been said. 

Many times while working up a load, I will fire five shots for a group to see how tight it is going to shoot for when it counts. I don't care where it hits the target as long as it DOES hit the target. I want to be able to SEE that 3/8" five shot group. And I want to make sure that I can repeat it. Once I am sure that a particular load meets my nit picky standards, then and only then will I alter my scope setting to move said group into the spot I want it to hit when I shoot at live game. 
Also I have known many target shooters who deliberately shoot outside the bull as it is usually easier to SEE it in the white than it is in the black. Most do this on purpose and alter their point of aim to utilize one target for multiple groups while practicing.

Once I get my 3/8" group then I set it for 3" high at 100 yards so that my PBR is about 350, this gives me the ability to shoot where I aim out to nearly 500. With no need for drastic holdover or adjustments to my scope I hold on fur, I HIT on fur. But PRACTICE is the key, no practice, no accuracy.

As long as I am sure that my gun will shoot a tight group, then I have eliminated it as an issue. If I miss after that, I know it is my own fault and not a bad load.
I have been known to show off a target with an exceptionally tight group that was not in the bull.
I have also been known to hit a coyote right between the eyes at 500 yards with the exact same load, and that was where I intended to hit him. :mrgreen: 

That is however, a nice little group ya got going there. :wink: A little BIG by my standards, but nice. :shock: :wink: :mrgreen: 

Happy New Year, y'all.


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

Here are 5 misses for you!










Dang, I think that flier might just have missed the rabbits head! :lol: JK!

Nice shooting James! was that shooting free hand after walking up hill in 80 degree weather? What if the squirrel was running?

Well said Frisco!

sawsman


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

> Nice shooting James! was that shooting free hand after walking up hill in 80 degree weather?


No........................ I was a horseback. :mrgreen:


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

On a flat out run I suppose. :wink:


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

Al Hansen said:


> On a flat out run I suppose. :wink:


Probably while riding a bucking bronco. :lol: _(O)_


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## reb8600 (Sep 8, 2007)

What good is a gun that can shoot 3 shots in a paper plate at 100 yds? Them people are shooting at game at 300 yds so them groups are 3 times that size. Most the groups you are seeing that are not in the bull are not the loads the gun was sighted in for. I sight in then start playing with the load to get the groups. That will move the point of impact. You should know that. Not all loads shoot the same. When I find the one I want I sight it in for that load. I have seen guys at the range shoot a 3 shot 6" group at 50 yds and say it is good for deer. Might be if they dont shoot further than 50 yds. Most people dont realize that a clean gun firing the first shot is going to have a different point of impact than the next 5 shots either.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

James said:


> The last time I had the 222 out, I shot a couple of groups just to reaffirm that if I miss that squirrels head, it ain't the guns fault!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That seems to be a nice rifle! Only thing what one is your "COLD SHOT" I find that in what gun I am shooting my "Cold Shot ie... first shot" is different than my following shots. Also as the gun gets dirty the groups tighten. 
Also I understand this is a small fast caliber your shooting, but real life zero'd at 100 is odd to me.

As humans none of us can shoot any gun to its true potental, that is one reason I use a vise to shoot, and I will also only shoot one time, make adjustment, wait..... wait til the gun is "Cold again" and fire again. This vise is much more steady than I can ever want to be, and shooting a round a half hour gives me my true "Cold" shot "First shot"..... also it would not be uncommon for me to clean the gun between shots!!!!


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

None of those are the cold shot. I had shot around 15 rounds in ten minutes, before I shot that group.

Your comment about being zeroed at 100 yards is interesting. Actually this rifle is zeroed at 200 yards. I know that and when shooting at 100 yards I make the adjustment. I was holding half an inch below 6:00. My goal being to hit the bull no matter what range I am shooting. That was the whole point of this exercise in the first place; to try to get you guys to hit the target!!! That squirrels head is smaller than this 2 inch bullseye.



> As humans none of us can shoot any gun to its true potental,


 I have to disagree. There are some pretty bad barrels in this world. Set those aside and you may be right. 
There are however, some pretty amazing shooters lurking around here. Whether anyone can actually shoot to the rifles true potentional I can't prove, but I will constantly be amazed at the shots some hunters make.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

James said:


> None of those are the cold shot. I had shot around 15 rounds in ten minutes, before I shot that group.
> 
> Your comment about being zeroed at 100 yards is interesting. Actually this rifle is zeroed at 200 yards. I know that and when shooting at 100 yards I make the adjustment. I was holding half an inch below 6:00. My goal being to hit the bull no matter what range I am shooting. That was the whole point of this exercise in the first place; to try to get you guys to hit the target!!! That squirrels head is smaller than this 2 inch bullseye.
> 
> ...


Making a great shot and shooting a gun to the potential is in my mind very different. Try this, Vise a gun in and fire 3 rounds at what ever distance, then shot that same distance bagged in tight, then shot it off hand, then off the back of a horse! 
I don't miss because the gun is not true, I miss because of me!

Yes your right there is some poor barreled guns around, but I also believe as humans we can't match engineering.....

As I said before that gun looks like a shooter! But having that cold shot recorded is going to help you with that one shot kill. I don't own a gun that is zero'd or dead on at that first shot. But I do have guns that are tack drivers as soon as they warm up.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

I don't have any rifles that move much as they warm up. I had one that would crawl a couple of inchs by the fourth round. I took it out of the stock and did some work on the bedding. Now it is pretty stable.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

I pulled the barrel/action on my 25.06 and free floated and bedded it before I had ever fired a single round through it. 
Never been a need to worry about cold and hot. Clean and dirty is a different matter, but not by much.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

James said:


> I don't have any rifles that move much as they warm up. I had one that would crawl a couple of inchs by the fourth round. I took it out of the stock and did some work on the bedding. Now it is pretty stable.


I only had one gun that was that way. A Rem .308 PSS. Cold shot was always dead bull but as it warmed on the 3rd shot it would drift to the right very little. A very tight grouping gun and as it dirtied it would get even tighter, but if you went one shot to much it would open back up.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Artoxx said:


> I pulled the barrel/action on my 25.06 and free floated and bedded it before I had ever fired a single round through it.
> Never been a need to worry about cold and hot. Clean and dirty is a different matter, but not by much.


Thats interesting.... Heat is one of the biggest problems with shooting groups, and also barrel life. Besides each time it is shot the little inperctions of a the barral gathers up the spent powder/copper/lead. At some time it improves the accuracy and soon it takes away from it. Having a clean cool gun and logging the cold shot and each time it is fired for that cold shot should give you one shot accurcy.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

I should have been more specific. A FRESHLY cleaned barrel will shoot slightly out of the normal point of impact on the first round. I always run a group of something I already know the accuracy of through it before starting on the groups for loads I am working on, so as to get an accurate picture of what that particular new recipe is going to do under real life conditions.
I haven't tried a sparkling clean barrel with Moly bullets yet, so I am not sure if one round of that will foul it enough or not. 
I always fire a fouling shot/group through it before taking it hunting if at all possible, and if I cannot for whatever reason, then I make sure that I am even more precise in my aim for the first round. It is never off by more than 1/2" or so, but I like it to be slightly dirty so as to get it right where I want it. That is, back in the group.
I have fired as many as 50 rounds through it without cleaning it and the groups stay tight as anything up past 45, so I don't need to worry too much about it.
Last thing I do before going home for the day is to thoroughly clean it and fire a group through it to make sure it is ready to go next time.
As far as temperature goes, I have worked up loads on hot days without any issues, but my standard technique is to fire a group of five, and then walk down and look at the target and measure the group, by the time I get back the barrel is pretty close to ambient again. I have not tried a steady string of 10-20 rounds to see where and if it loses accuracy with the heat. I don't have any particular desire to overheat my barrel even once. No point in that with the way I shoot and the things that I shoot. If I don't kill it with the first or second round, it isn't going to die anyway.
I don't shoot P.D.'s or anything as a rule so I don't have any reason to cut loose too many rounds in a row.

Never fired more than two rounds at anything living yet, hope I won't have to in the future. Most I can remember firing in a steady string is five. At targets.


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