# Brass Annealing



## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Who does it and how often? What's your method? I picked up 130+ once fired 270 Win cases for $15 a while back to use for my 6.5 Sherman. Since they have been fired, I figured they'd be a little work hardened, but thought I'd try them out while fireforming. Out of 20 cases, I lost 2 as they split at the shoulder as they were being pushed forward. That's not a bad loss, but I'd rather keep as many as possible and make the brass last quite a while. Any tips would be great!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I've honestly never done it. The worst case for me is 22-250 brass due to the steep neck angle, I have reloaded thousands of them. I usually get 6-8 firings out of un-annealled brass before they split. To me, thats an acceptable amount of firings out of single brass (I have bags and bags of brass I haven't even used yet). 

Dont forget, each firing is also stretching the case just above the rim. Annealling will help hardened necks... but a case only has X amount of firings regardless (dependent on how tight / sloppy your case is, how much setback is needed, if you full length vs neck size only).

-DallanC


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Try here: Ken Light Manufacturing. Do a Googlr search. My buddy has his annealing machine that works really well and it is fast. He has written an extensive article that is on his website that covers about everything you ever wanted to know about the subject.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Al Hansen said:


> Try here: Ken Light Manufacturing. Do a Googlr search. My buddy has his annealing machine that works really well and it is fast. He has written an extensive article that is on his website that covers about everything you ever wanted to know about the subject.


I'll check it out!


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Here's my high tech annealer....


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

DallanC said:


> I've honestly never done it. The worst case for me is 22-250 brass due to the steep neck angle, I have reloaded thousands of them. I usually get 6-8 firings out of un-annealled brass before they split. To me, thats an acceptable amount of firings out of single brass (I have bags and bags of brass I haven't even used yet).
> 
> Dont forget, each firing is also stretching the case just above the rim. Annealling will help hardened necks... but a case only has X amount of firings regardless (dependent on how tight / sloppy your case is, how much setback is needed, if you full length vs neck size only).
> 
> -DallanC


I've never annealed before as well, I try to cycle through all of my brass to keep its use to a minimum. I just started looking at it for my 6.5 as there is a lot of brass movement going on when forming. I may need to pick up a portable torch from Harbor Freight this weekend.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Check this out:






Oh interesting, the guy has a newer version:






-DallanC


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

...and another with explanation of how to. One of the cheaper auto annealers I've seen with good reviews.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Check this out:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ingenious !!! Watched them all.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I work at a lot of annealing shops. I should take my formed brass with me to work. 
Here's an annealing job at Aberfolye in Toronto Canada. 1150° F for 8 hours:


40-ft long 2" Chrome-moly tubes in a furnace:


I get .256 Winchester Mag cartridges by forming 357 Mag brass. I'm annealing the swaged necks with a propane torch on the brass as the brass stands in a pan of 1/2" deep water. Crude, but the process keeps the brass from splitting down the road. Boring stuff compared to the gadgets and gizmos we anneal at work.

.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I have tried a pretty simple method that simply requires a pan of water and a blow torch

Fill the pan with enough water to cover the whole case just below the shoulder. Stand the case in the water and use your torch to heat the case for a few seconds and then knock the case over in the water to quench it. 

Seems to work but I'm only on my 4th firing of some .308 brass so I'm not positive if it really works well or not.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

gdog said:


> Here's my high tech annealer....


I'm going to copy that!


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Some calibers I anneal quite often. I notice a difference when my expander pulls through my case necks, both in consistency and ease if drawing the expander out. My cases last considerably longer too. Be careful not to over anneal or anneal too far down the case. A pan of water method seems to prevent this. Even low pressure loads will show high pressure signs if you anneal too far down the case.

However, I can honestly say I can't tell the difference in accuracy.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Back home, all my old shooting buddies went in together and bought one of those fancy annealing machines. It was unanimously voted that the machine would reside at the home of the guy who's wife was the best cook.-------SS


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

I have tried it once using just gas stove and pan of water on .375 brass. don't know if it helps, haven't loaded the brass yet.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Bax is using the old "tried and true" annealing" method. It Works great! The only suggestion I have, based on my experience, is that you only fill the baking pan with water to about half the case length and you need to get the brass near red before tipping if over(quenching). The method is very fast and easy. Not to say that the machines and gadgets don't do a good job, it's just that bass generally only needs to be annealed about every 4-5 loading and if you are a typical hunter/reloader another gadget sitting around your reloading bench isn't needed.
Annealing will help extend the life of your bass a little and will definitely make them work through the dies better, but over time, as the bass stretches, thins and is trimmed, you will start to loose brass from split necks. Unfortunately there is no way to put that metal you've trimmed away back into the case.
The method that 35whelen is using does not work because you can't quench the brass in water that is the same temperature as the brass. It is the rapid cooling of the hot brass that does the work. Quenching(rapid cooling) hardens ferrous metal and softens non-ferrous metals. Working...hammering, bending, etc...hardens non-ferrous but softens ferrous metals.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

BPturkeys said:


> The method that 35whelen is using does not work because you can't quench the brass in water that is the same temperature as the brass. It is the rapid cooling of the hot brass that does the work. Quenching(rapid cooling) hardens ferrous metal and softens non-ferrous metals. Working...hammering, bending, etc...hardens non-ferrous but softens ferrous metals.


I'm not being a nit-picker but I think quenching does nothing as far as annealing brass. I vaguely remember, but I think you get the same results by quenching and cooling in ambient temperature. I'm going to check since I'm not sure.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

You might be right but I was tough that the cooling time, providing the initial temperature of the metal is correct, is what brings about the change in molecular structure and "locks" the metal in that form. If allowed to cool slowly the metal will return basically to its pre heat treated form. The water in the pan has a dual function. It keeps the heat from running down the case beyond the neck...the part that really needs to be annealed, and provides a handy place to cool the brass.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Again, I'm not calling BPturkeys out. He just got me wondering because I thought I remembered that brass didn't need to be quenched to be annealed. The main reason standing cases up in a pan of water is to keep the rest of the case from being annealed, which would be bad and dangerous.
I found this web site that talks about it.
http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing

To Quench or Not to Quench

Notice that there was no mention of quenching the brass. To anneal brass, all that is required is heat and time. Once you have allowed the structure of the brass to transform, it's done. You can cool it as slowly or as quickly as you like and it won't matter.

The myth that you need to quench brass comes from the requirement to do so when heat treating some kinds of steel. Those steels harden by a very different mechanism that has nothing to do with brass or work hardening at all.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

BPturkeys, now you got me reading all kinds of stuff about annealing brass. I hold the case in my hand and roll the neck in the flame until it becomes the color of new Lapua brass necks then toss it in a pan of water. I hope I'm getting the right temp. It seems to make a difference though.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Well I'll be Go to He**. See, an old dog can learn new tricks. But, by a quick look at the "effect of annealing temperature on brass strength" chart, it looks like the rapid cooling does not really effect the brass one way or the other. Having the brass in the pan of water does control where the heat is applied, in the neck area only. Interesting stuff. 
I'd enjoy a conversation on case hardening and methods of producing the different colors. Now there is something that borders on an art form.
I always heated the brass to nice red color...not to bright red, but red, and it seems to come out about right. I bet a guy could use one of those heat detecting guns like the heating/air conditioner guys use and learn what color red is close to the that desired 650-700 degree temp.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Great info in this thread for sure- I just picked up a portable propane torch to give it a try.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

BPturkeys said:


> I bet a guy could use one of those heat detecting guns like the heating/air conditioner guys use and learn what color red is close to the that desired 650-700 degree temp.


There is a youtube video explaining why using "color" isn't as accurate as other means. But I agree with the laser thermometers, they are snazzy. You can get decent ones pretty cheap from China, in fact I just got one:

http://www.banggood.com/GM900-50900...er-Gun-Tester-Temperature-Meter-p-912033.html

-DallanC


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

From what I've read, it seems like using Tempilaq is a pretty reliable way to get the brass to the correct temperature as well.


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## Stickboy (Oct 28, 2010)

Haven't spent the cheddar on a machine. I did have access to one in the past and they work great. 308 lapua brass every 4th reload. 264win every 3rd reload. Have done the "hold in fingers" method, but have settled on using a deep well socket attached to a 3/8's drill. As others have mentioned, be sure not to anneal too far down the case. 

There is also quite a bit on YouTube.


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## 1trhall (Oct 18, 2017)

I've been going through the fire forming for my new Sherman build this winter and ran into the exact same problem with new Winchester 270 brass. I found a better method using some shotgun or pistol powder and cream of wheat. I was using 10 gr of Titegroup then filling the case up with cream of wheat (yes, the dry cereal) and the lightly putting a bit of quilt batting in the end to keep the cream of wheat from spilling out. An 80 year old man was forming 200 cases for his 6.5-06 AI and showed this to me.
Works awesome, doesn't heat up your barrel and you're not wasting valuable rifle powder and bullets and no split cases. 

I started with annealed brass and I anneal every firing afterwards.


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