# Hunt bucks every year



## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

Tired of waiting 4 years for a buck tag-soon to be 6 years or more. How about a system where you can hunt buck deer every year? And it grossly increases DWR’s deer tag income. It is called antler restrictions and has been absolutely proven successful. You can even hunt multiple seasons-archery,muzzy and rifle. Instead of the current 50% success on primarily small yearlings there would be a probable success rate of 10 to 15% on much larger bodied mature bucks. The success rate of the casual hunter driving around nailing the first dumb yearling from the vehicle will drop dramatically. The first year harvest will be low due to lack of mature bucks but will increase significantly in the following years as the unharvested yearlings grow. The more serious hunters willing to expend more hunting effort would be better rewarded. Hunters could count on a buck tag every year facilitating the return of family/group hunting camps.
The main objection I have heard raised is the number of young deer left dead but that would pale by comparison to the number of young deer currently killed. Hunters have grown more responsible and the odds of being caught have risen with the number of cell phones out and about. Another solution currently used allows a hunter to take the deer to DWR for evaluation where the warden can rule that the deer does not quite meet the antler rule but is so reasonably close that the hunter keeps the buck with no fine. The warden could also rule that the buck was a mistake and let the self reporting hunter keep it with a lesser fine than would be applied if caught abandoning a kill. Successful doe breeding is also not a factor as there will be many yearling and 2 year old bucks available.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I agree 100%

And while we're at it,
Quit shooting spike elk too.


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

I forgot to add that we have operated under antler restrictions for a long time with spike elk.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

goofy elk said:


> I agree 100%
> 
> And while we're at it,
> Quit shooting spike elk too.


I don't know what you're talking about. Spike elk are unicorns and I don't believe they exist. Then again, I hunt north Manti...


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I haven't *NOT* had a buck tag since 1995. I haven't *NOT* killed a buck since... 1995. IDK what you are doing to go +4 years without a buck tag... thats crazy.

The system is fine, learn how it works, use it to your advantage.

PS: I eat my deer, I love yearlings for table fare. Nothing preventing you from burning the shoe leather to kill a big one every year. Lots of people do it on this site consistently year after year. Just takes alot of work and being smart about it.

-DallanC


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I hunted 3 point or better units in the 80's. I believe there were some 4 point units back then too. Always had opportunities, and always saw a lot of a deer. Without the antler restrictions in place now, I still see a lot of deer and still have opportunities, but I definitely don't get to hunt every year.


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

I won't be burning much shoe leather hunting every fourth year. Check out Boulder and Fish Lake.


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## johnrr65 (Nov 7, 2019)

Fowlmouth said:


> I hunted 3 point or better units in the 80's. I believe there were some 4 point units back then too. Always had opportunities, and always saw a lot of a deer. Without the antler restrictions in place now, I still see a lot of deer and still have opportunities, but I definitely don't get to hunt every year.


+1


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

My wifes family settled that area, her dad grew up in Grover. All her cousins still hunt there... and they kill some unbelievable deer every year there. They are extremely tight lipped about it. But I've seen more than enough pictures of huge deer they've taken (every 3-4 years they usually get one over 200") to know its an amazing place to hunt, with any weapon type.


-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ahhh Grover,
Right where the pavement ended until the late 1980s.

It was a dirt forest road over to Boulder town.
The deer hunting there was UNREAL!

The same time frame over on the Henry's it was antler restrictions.
Again, UNREAL deer hunting.

On top that,
It was general season,
You could have TWO buck deer permits EVERY YEAR!
And hunt all 3 season.
AND. the muzzy hunt was in November.

Yes , those WERE the days!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Those were the good old days. I started hunting the Henry Mountains in the early 80's and all the hunters would shame you all the way back home if you shot a 2pt not to mention even shooting a 3pt unless he was a 30+ 3pt. 

If you really want to hunt buck deer every year you need to broaden your applications out. 

Find a unit where you can draw a tag and then go learn it. There are still a couple out there where you can hunt bucks every year but you are going to have to put in some time in them to learn them before you will be very successful. 

Other than that start hunting out of state, but then again that requires effort which very few now days are willing to put out. 

No matter what they do in the state of Utah for the draws you will never see the times when you can stay in your home unit and hunt it every year, or ever every three or so years.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

clickbait title: Use this one SIMPLE TRICK to Hunt bucks every year! (DWR HATES THIS!)


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

How about hunting deer every year with the current management plan? I like that idea better! You can pull an archery tag in almost every general unit in Utah with 1 or less points. Pick up a bow! How about hunting muzzleloader? You can draw about 50% of the general units with 1 or less points. Most are guaranteed at 2 points. Pick up a muzzy! Quit thinking the any weapon hunt is the only way to go. There’s plenty of options and opportunities out there right now for everyone who hunts. Don’t get mad and want to change things for everyone if you place restrictions on yourself and refuse to explore every opportunity out there that can have you hunting EVERY YEAR. You have no one to blame but yourself for having 4+ points for general deer in Utah


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Best solution to bigger bucks is cut the tag numbers in half and charge double the price. Then, close all the roads off during the winter, kill all the lions, yotes. Jail ALL poachers for minimum of 10 years. Oh ya, place a moratorium on all development above the valleys and demo those that are there now, or charge them a wildlife habitat fee of 20K annually for restitution of lost winter range per property.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

If you really want to improve hunting on general hunts in Utah, here’s what needs to happen.

1. Mandatory harvest reporting done by every hunter a field. You don’t report on your hunt that year, you don’t get to go hunting the next 3 years. Can’t buy out of it.
2. Change percentages of tags given to 40% archery, 40% Muzzleloader, 20% rifle.
3. 21 day archery season. 7 day muzzleloader season. 3 day rifle season.
4. Remove all scopes from muzzleloaders and rifles. Open sights only. Fixed pin sights only on archery equipment. No semi automatic center fire rifles allowed (reducing the spray and pray methods)
5. Eliminate the use of trail cams on public land. If you are caught using one on public land, you lose your hunting rights for 10 years. No exceptions.

If you implemented those 5 changes, you’d see an increase of mature deer numbers across the state in just a few years. Those changes would impact EVERYONE, however, you wouldn’t be reducing OPPORTUNITY while increasing mature buck numbers at the same time

Edit. I would add one more thing I guess.

6. Make all lion and bear tags OTC (quota system on bears). No baiting and no hounds during the fall. You could still run a spring bear/lion hunt on a quota system using bait and hounds.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

MooseMeat said:


> How about hunting deer every year with the current management plan? I like that idea better! You can pull an archery tag in almost every general unit in Utah with 1 or less points. Pick up a bow! How about hunting muzzleloader? You can draw about 50% of the general units with 1 or less points. Most are guaranteed at 2 points. Pick up a muzzy! Quit thinking the any weapon hunt is the only way to go. There's plenty of options and opportunities out there right now for everyone who hunts. Don't get mad and want to change things for everyone if you place restrictions on yourself and refuse to explore every opportunity out there that can have you hunting EVERY YEAR. You have no one to blame but yourself for having 4+ points for general deer in Utah


This is good until those that enjoy less crowds during archery season get what they asked for.

Let's face it. There is more demand than supply and we hunters are having to deal with the reality of that.

Everytime I hear people talk about hunter recruitment being down, I cringe.

Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

KineKilla said:


> This is good until those that enjoy less crowds during archery season get what they asked for.
> 
> Let's face it. There is more demand than supply and we hunters are having to deal with the reality of that.
> 
> ...


The archery hunt is already a disaster opening weekend. Combat hunting with a bow is a nightmare. Especially when it comes to dealing with people that haven't a ****ing clue what they are doing. But hunt during the week, off the truck roads, and you'll be alone. I've witnessed it many times in many units. And honestly, I'd rather deal with more people if it means more deer. I'm willing to take on that challenge. I can't be the only one either.

You're right. I absolutely hate hearing "we need to get more people involved in hunting!"

No. We don't. There's enough people as it is.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I’m honestly surprised more people don’t get into archery, WAY more opportunities for hunts and there’s just something about stalking an animal with a bow in your hand. Sh!t, just walking through the forest with a bow in hand is a blast! Now that said, I’m honestly glad there aren’t as many bow hunters.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

4. Remove all scopes from muzzleloaders and rifles. Open sights only. Fixed pin sights only on archery equipment. No semi automatic center fire rifles allowed (reducing the spray and pray methods)
 5. Eliminate the use of trail cams on public land. If you are caught using one on public land, you lose your hunting rights for 10 years. No exceptions.

I don't see how these "rules" would save deer numbers. 

1- Trail cams I believe work towards harvesting a mature animal. 
2- Scoped firearms can help make a more accurate shot on an animal.
3- Auto loader rifles are not less/more effective than a bolt. Its the individual pulling the trigger that makes the weapon effective. 

It kind of sounds like a few ideas you have are almost like saying we need to go back into the stone age way of hunting. Lets eliminate the use of all archery tackle and mandate a spear, rocks, deadfall, in its place. Crazy I know, but to me that's where your post ideas seem to be heading. 

Why not every other year say, odd # years only archery tackle can be used. Even # years Rifle and Muzzleloaders get there turn?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ya,^^^^^^^
It was also either sex archery.
You could shoot a doe on the Henry's back in the day.

All the years I hunted it I only saw 1,
EXACTLY ONE doe shot.
A Californian hunter. 1989.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> 4. Remove all scopes from muzzleloaders and rifles. Open sights only. Fixed pin sights only on archery equipment. No semi automatic center fire rifles allowed (reducing the spray and pray methods)
> 5. Eliminate the use of trail cams on public land. If you are caught using one on public land, you lose your hunting rights for 10 years. No exceptions.
> 
> I don't see how these "rules" would save deer numbers.
> ...


Do you really believe technology hasn't had a major impact on our animals in a negative way? I'm simply trying to level the playing field for everyone, including the animals. Without scopes, you can't shoot 1000 yards with a rifle. You can't shoot 500 yards with a Muzzleloader. Banning trail cams will make you have to do your scouting in person. Not just throw up 20 cams in a day and know exactly what's there over the summer without ever looking with your own eyes. The auto loading gun may not be more efficient, but it does throw more lead in a shorter time than a bolt gun. 3-5 rounds in a bolt VS 30 round magazine from a .308 semi auto rifle? Guess which one has higher chance of tracking down a running deer before it runs out of ammo

Before magnified scopes were allowed on muzzleloaders, every deer I shot was 150 yards or closer. And it took me 3+ days to kill a deer big enough to shoot. The last 2 muzzy deer I've shot since magnified scopes were made legal, were killed the first 10 minutes of the hunt opening morning at ranges 285 and 315 yards. Many more deer are being killed every year because of technology. If you limit the technology, you limit the amount of animals being killed.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Ya...... Muzzleloader hunt is no more a primitive weapon hunt than fly to the moon anymore. 
Archery is about the same way.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> Do you really believe technology hasn't had a major impact on our animals in a negative way? I'm simply trying to level the playing field for everyone, including the animals. Without scopes, you can't shoot 1000 yards with a rifle. You can't shoot 500 yards with a Muzzleloader. Banning trail cams will make you have to do your scouting in person. Not just throw up 20 cams in a day and know exactly what's there over the summer without ever looking with your own eyes. The auto loading gun may not be more efficient, but it does throw more lead in a shorter time than a bolt gun. 3-5 rounds in a bolt VS 30 round magazine from a .308 semi auto rifle? Guess which one has higher chance of tracking down a running deer before it runs out of ammo
> 
> Before magnified scopes were allowed on muzzleloaders, every deer I shot was 150 yards or closer. And it took me 3+ days to kill a deer big enough to shoot. The last 2 muzzy deer I've shot since magnified scopes were made legal, were killed the first 10 minutes of the hunt opening morning at ranges 285 and 315 yards. Many more deer are being killed every year because of technology. If you limit the technology, you limit the amount of animals being killed.


This. Exactly this. People will be restricted to hunting less often with more technology or more often with less technology. And the technology places a much higher burden on the desired animal to kill. I'd vote to remove all scopes, all range finders and be able to hunt more often and see more mature animals.

As for Antler Point Restrictions for deer- well the scientific data shows it works for a short time, and then places too much burden on the mature segment of the herd. Of course the "back when I was a kid" data contradicts that for some people, but back when I was a kid we saw many more deer and bucks on units without antler point restrictions.

And to remove the spike only hunts on LE elk units with 5+ year old age objectives would put more bulls on the landscape than cows, thus reducing the productivity of the herd and dramatically reducing hunting opportunity. Now, remove spike only hunts for branch antlered hunts and you could increase hunting opportunity and shoot more bulls than we currently do, but the LE opportunity would have to go away.......


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

I like Arizona’s management plan far better then Utah ( regarding hunt schedules)

3 different rifle seasons on 1 given unit. Same number of tags but, split the hunting seasons into 1/3’s and letting a fraction of the people go at each given time.

Less crowding, the deer can actually move without immediately being shot..

I’ll bet you will see the quality of deer improve


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Packout said:


> Of course the "back when I was a kid" data contradicts that for some people, but back when I was a kid we saw many more deer and bucks on units without antler point restrictions.


I thought about this and came up with the conclusion that back when I was a kid and we saw a lot more mature bucks and deer in general that we very seldom saw a coyote, bear, or a mountain lion. Then those that were seen were shot on sight. You could purchase a bear or lion tag for a dollar and hunt them for the whole year. Granted that dollar has risen to $20 or more dollars but you still had unlimited tags offered and a year long season.

Then there was 1080 poison and the unlimited use of cyanide to eliminate coyotes.

The only two real predators that the deer had were men and women.

I would like to see the muzzy hunt return to a more primitive type of hunt. Yes, Dallan we know that there were scopes and breach loaders way back when but we are talking about what was generally used by the general public for the "primitive" definition.

So for archery how far back do we need to go? Re-curve or long bows? No sights and just using our eyes and the tip of the arrow to aim?

As for the rifle hunt it will depend on the person packing the rifle to set their own limits. I know of some who can take a thousand yard shot with open sights and do better than I can with a scope. But a lot of that depends on the eyesight of the shooter. Us older folks have a hard time seeing to tie our shoe laces much less taking a 200 yard shot with open sights.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

As much as some would like to try and eliminate the progression of "technology" from hunting, it will never happen. In fact, technology is used in the DWR to try and increase animal counts and growth. 


I honestly believe that the reason for lower numbers is from urban growth. Twenty years ago you never saw a home on the point of the mountain. Now it's plastered with homes. It's the same along the Wasatch front benches. Homes of the wealthy have replaced critical winter range. Wildfires, then flooding create the loss of habitat that takes years to heal itself. 


You want to increase the opportunity to hunt every year? Start applying for out of state permits. 


I'm sure it was a bitch session when numbers were cut this year. Poor dad and the kids can't go hunting in their favorite spot. Boo HOO!!! Get use to it because more people are becoming residents and they're applying for tags. Maybe it's time to take up a hobby for those years you cant hunt. I hear basket weaving is very relaxing. Eliminating scoped weapons from the hunting scene?? Well, I don't need to say anymore than that's a sh!t for brains idea! 


While your trying to eliminate technology from the field --- why don't you add in you cant use your 60K truck and 40K trailer? Also, you have to use a horse/mule or walk your ars to the woods.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

This is going the wrong direction for antler point restrictions.
If you want to hunt every year we need a bunch of ‘2 point and less only’ zones.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Hunter Tom said:


> It is called antler restrictions and has been absolutely proven successful.


How it took 3 pages for this to be called out as false is beyond me...

Good work Packout!


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> Eliminating scoped weapons from the hunting scene?? Well, I don't need to say anymore than that's a sh!t for brains idea.


Why? Cuz you'd have to actually hunt to kill a deer instead of dialing a turret and shooting it at 900+ yards?

I've got fancy rifles and scopes. I've got a 500+ yard Muzzleloader. I've got 20+ trail cams. I've got a fancy range finder that takes all the guess work out of my shot. I've got archery equipment where I can shoot out to 150 yards if I feel like I need to (yes, I've got the skills and archery resume to back it up). Everything I suggested changing would impact my ability to kill big deer consistently. Currently the hardest part of the hunt is finding one big enough to shoot. Once I've done that, the hunt is over if I do my part. If I had to use open sights on my firearms, the hunt is just getting started when I see that big deer out in the wide open at 750 yards and I have to figure out how to get closer in order for me to kill it.

You can't say that modern technology is killing more mature deer every year that otherwise wouldn't get killed. If you want more and bigger bucks, you have to cut something out of the equation. I'd gladly give up my equipment first, rather than limit what I can shoot (antler restrictions) or drastically cutting tag numbers. From what i gather, there's a lot of guys who feel the same.


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

Pennsylvania absolutely proved that antler restrictions work. They moved away from almost total yearling harvest and they get to hunt 4 or 5 deer seasons every year. Success rate is low but good hunters do well.

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/Wil...edDeer/Pages/AntlerRestrictionsAreTheyWorking.

Wait time on our buck tags will increase as many more people migrate to Utah. It is easy to see 6 year wait times if we don't change.

Today will be "back in the day" in 2040.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

HT, Pennsylvania has a larger populist of deer than Utah. That's why they, and many other states have long multiple seasons. Some states require that you harvest two does in order to get a buck tag. Over populated herds competing for habitat. I see it as a similar configuration as Flaming Gorge Res. and the Lake Trout. The DWR increased the limit of "pups" to lower the competition for food and increase the growth rate of the 15+ pound fish. 


Whitetails are smaller in that they don't require the same geographical range to be content. Whitetail are almost like cattle in regards that if you place them in an area with suitable habitat, they wont venture/migrate 100 miles like mule deer do. 


The state is loosing habitat every year. Be it from development, fire, flood, etc. I honestly don't see how a healthy deer herd can survive without quality habitat. 


If someone doesn't step up and take a stand for this, I'm afraid Deer hunting could turn into a similar fashion as what the "Utah pheasant hunt" has become. Planting birds in areas to be hunted by a mob of shotgun wilding foot soldiers. Loss of habitat takes its tole on Wildlife eventually!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

One thing that you can not compare is white tails to mule deer. 

They both live in completely different habitats or should I survive in different ones.


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

On this issue, you can continue hunting primarily yearlings at a 50% kill rate with increasing wait times or hunt bigger bucks more often at a lesser kill rate. I am surprised at the reluctance of site members to make this change as serious dedicated hunters make out much better than casual hunters with AR. The future is clear-even spike tags will be on a draw before long.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Hunter Tom said:


> On this issue, you can continue hunting primarily yearlings at a 50% kill rate with increasing wait times or hunt bigger bucks more often at a lesser kill rate. I am surprised at the reluctance of site members to make this change as serious dedicated hunters make out much better than casual hunters with AR. The future is clear-even spike tags will be on a draw before long.


I'm not the best deer hunter on here, I'm mostly successful because I'm willing to put in whatever Work I need to and maintain fitness all year to ensure I can. So for me, it's more determination than skill. That said, I'm never hunting yearlings, even with my approach, I'm consistently getting into 3-4 year old deer with the occasional 5 year old and I suck!

Last year, I was able to stalk the biggest buck of my life with my bow, a true 5x5, boxy as hell and wide. Big bucks are out there, you just gotta work for em.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I hunt for mature bucks and have been doing so for the last 30 or so years. 

The last time that I shot a 2 pt was 10 or so years ago and that 2pt had a 29" spread. 

I have killed a very mature buck in 2 of the last 5 years and have passed up more than most people see. It is all in what you are willing to shoot. 90% of the hunters in Utah will shoot the first legal buck that they see.

As for the spike elk going to a draw, yes it will. When you only have xx amount of tags and xxxxx amount of hunters who want to hunt them you have to do something.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Instead of making spike elk hunting a LE hunt, turn it into archery only, then you can still give out an unlimited amount of tags.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Ray said:


> Instead of making spike elk hunting a LE hunt, turn it into archery only, then you can still give out an unlimited amount of tags.


The problem with that is that most of the hunters in Utah do not nor do they want to archery hunt


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Critter said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of making spike elk hunting a LE hunt, turn it into archery only, then you can still give out an unlimited amount of tags.
> ...


That's their problem I say. What's the alternative? A LE spike hunt that no one will apply for?


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Honestly though, I don’t see it going LE, GS that you have to apply for, maybe, but definitely not LE.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Hunter Tom said:


> On this issue, you can continue hunting primarily yearlings at a 50% kill rate with increasing wait times or hunt bigger bucks more often at a lesser kill rate. I am surprised at the reluctance of site members to make this change as serious dedicated hunters make out much better than casual hunters with AR. The future is clear-even spike tags will be on a draw before long.


Look, you act like this is new knowledge for us. We've debated AR's and other restrictions for 15 years or so... ON _ THIS _ VERY _ SITE. That includes when this site was originally the DWR message forum.

Why dont you spend a week using the search function and read all of those endless posts and discussion and see what new ideas you can add to whats been posted year after year after year.

You come off as snobbish, you want to completely throw out the system so you, have what you feel is a better chance at a big mature every few years.

I have two issues with your suggestion, 1: under the current system there are smart people finding and killing big mature deer EVERY year. Hell, go look at any of the big deer and big bulls Ridgetop posts on a regular basis. Those are general unit animals, big enough to compete with anything coming off of LE's or CWMUs.

2: You want to believe everyone hunts for the same reason you do. WE DO NOT. I want a tag every year to hunt, some years I get a big one, some years I dont... but I always love hunting. I absolutely NEVER want to be in a system where I have to wait years doing something I love. You also seem to think a younger buck is inferior to a mature buck, again we differ. If a hunter shoots something he is happy with then i'm happy for him. I dont judge others for what they harvest, as long as they did it legally.

I'm well beyond the need to shoot a big deer to feel good about my self. I just hunt, I have fun... I let the deer gods determine what type of critters I come across. I shoot what makes me happy.

-DallanC


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

DallanC said:


> Hunter Tom said:
> 
> 
> > On this issue, you can continue hunting primarily yearlings at a 50% kill rate with increasing wait times or hunt bigger bucks more often at a lesser kill rate. I am surprised at the reluctance of site members to make this change as serious dedicated hunters make out much better than casual hunters with AR. The future is clear-even spike tags will be on a draw before long.
> ...


Amen brother! Additionally, if you're only coming across yearlings when others are harvesting more mature animals, maybe that says more about you than it does the current system.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Actual MULE DEER studies in the west have shown that if you do antler restrictions from now until 2040, there will be a lot more fisherman out and about because you won’t have any deer herd left. 

“Absolutely” is very strong language. You need to check your sources. Your statement is not even close to being factually accurate.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

olibooger said:


> +1.


Oh look who it is! Wonder how many posts before you get your panties in a wad and start deleting your comments again hahahahaha :smile:


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> The problem with that is that most of the hunters in Utah do not nor do they want to archery hunt


1) I doubt that claim. Seems like at least 1/3, if not more hunters in Utah are willing to pick up a bow if it means they can have a tag.

2) people are their biggest enemy. If you don't take advantage of all opportunities available to you, you really can't complain about "opportunity" or the lack there of


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> I'm afraid Deer hunting could turn into a similar fashion as what the "Utah pheasant hunt" has become. Planting birds in areas to be hunted by a mob of shotgun wilding foot soldiers. Loss of habitat takes its tole on Wildlife eventually!


Can you really use pheasants as an example though? They aren't native in Utah. Can't be too mad about a species not flourishing when they didn't originally exist here in the first place. There's still a lot of prime pheasant habitat that is completely void of birds and has been for a long time. Even with supplemental transplants. Sure predators have a part in that, but maybe utah isn't "ideal" for them to begin with.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Ray said:


> That's their problem I say. What's the alternative? A LE spike hunt that no one will apply for?


I'd apply. Usually guys that hate spike hunting, aren't very good at it to begin with. Kinda like deer hunting. They go out for a morning, don't see one 14 miles Off the road (more like .14 miles from the road) and say the hunting sucks. Then come up with stupid ideas that they think would help them kill bigger deer. You know, like antler restrictions 

There's plenty of big deer on every unit in Utah. You've just gotta spend the time to figure out where they are. Most guys aren't willing to do that, so complaining and wanting changes is their next best route.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Hunter Tom said:


> On this issue, you can continue hunting primarily yearlings at a 50% kill rate with increasing wait times or hunt bigger bucks more often at a lesser kill rate. I am surprised at the reluctance of site members to make this change as serious dedicated hunters make out much better than casual hunters with AR. The future is clear-even spike tags will be on a draw before long.


Bravo, that's some funny schtuff right there.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

MooseMeat said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > That's their problem I say. What's the alternative? A LE spike hunt that no one will apply for?
> ...


I love the spike units,I hunt them every with my bow. That said, if I had to choose between putting in for a LE any bull tag on the Manti and a spike tag, I'd put in for any bull every time. So I guess it would just depend on how they structure the draw. If you're able to put in for both and build points in both simultaneously, then I'd apply, but I wouldn't if it's one or the other.


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

Dallan It has nothing to do with yearlings or mature bucks. It is only about hunting opportunity. I have been on this site longer than you and don't need to search. I could see opportunity slipping away and have pushed for AR for many years. I live in the Boulder unit. Why would I want to travel all over to hunt. For snobbish look in the mirror.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

olibooger said:


> .+1


Is your keyboard broke? Or are you not capable of your own thoughts?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Hunter Tom said:


> Dallan It has nothing to do with yearlings or mature bucks. It is only about hunting opportunity. I have been on this site longer than you and don't need to search. I could see opportunity slipping away and have pushed for AR for many years. I live in the Boulder unit. Why would I want to travel all over to hunt. For snobbish look in the mirror.


Hahahahahaha you really believe there's only 2 points out there to chase now? You need to get out more. Or try going somewhere other than the 1 Canyon you hunt. Guys that spend the time hunting don't have issues locating big deer. Guys that don't put in the time complain the most about deer numbers. Guess which side of that spectrum you are appearing to be on

Why would you want to travel all over to hunt? Cuz there's plenty of other places out there that are much better than the boulders to hunt.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

If you want, or feel the need to hunt deer every year I feel you're a little selfish. I bitch when I don't draw a tag but then I move on. So be it, I'll apply next year. 


There are units undersubscribed each year and those tags go up to a first come first serve over the counter tag. If you call yourself a great hunter and can find deer wherever you hunt, apply for those units and hunt every year. You do your homework and scout, you'll find mature bucks on those units. 


I'm tired of hearing all the hype that bowhunters should be catered to! Make this or that a archery only hunt. HOGWASH!! You have the longest hunts now. Why not spin the 3 week long hunt one year to archery, then Black powder, and finally rifle? Each group gets the chance at an extended hunt. I guarantee you'd be hunting every year if you applied for the 3 day hunt for that year.


I'm not a great hunter, but I've killed some great animals with all three weapons. I have to say though, 90% of those "great animals came in the 80's and early 90's. 


In the 80's an archery hunter almost had the mountain to themselves. Now, you have someone stealing your cameras, tree stands, and cutting other hunters off on a stock, or just being A$$ Holes! Hunter etiquette is extinct in the field anymore IMO. Not only archery, but all hunts.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Critter said:


> One thing that you can not compare is white tails to mule deer.
> 
> They both live in completely different habitats or should I survive in different ones.


That's pretty much what I stated in the post.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> If you want, or feel the need to hunt deer every year I feel you're a little selfish. I bitch when I don't draw a tag but then I move on. So be it, I'll apply next year.
> 
> There are units undersubscribed each year and those tags go up to a first come first serve over the counter tag. If you call yourself a great hunter and can find deer wherever you hunt, apply for those units and hunt every year. You do your homework and scout, you'll find mature bucks on those units.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should stay home from now on if hunting in general doesn't meet your expectations anymore.

I'm confused on when the topic of bowhunters being catered to came up in this discussion. I didn't think it had, maybe I'm missing something. I don't think bowhunters are catered to intentionally. Archery hunts create more opportunity. That's just the nature of the weapon. Opportunity is what the state pushed for pretty hard a few years ago. Well, one of the easiest ways to accommodate that without hammering the resource more than it already is, is to create a hunt using a less successful weapon. Archery happens to be that weapon. If you wanna talk about being catered to, the majority of tags offered currently are rifle tags. They far out number the amount of archery tags given. Plus they get the prime elk rut dates almost every year. Talk about "catered" to!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Maybe you should stay home from now on if hunting in general doesn't meet your expectations anymore.


I've never stated that hunting in general doesn't meet my expectations. You've interpreted that in your thinking. 


I'm confused on when the topic of bowhunters being catered to came up in this discussion. 


Archery hunting has come up in past post in this thread. I have interpreted those comments as an archer wanting more liberal hunting opportunity. Like archery season isn't long enough already?


This thread is about ways to have an opportunity to hunt every year in the state of Utah. Active dialog in throwing ideas out there to obtain that goal is what I've been reading thus far. Ya, we all don't agree on a way to accomplish that. But in the meantime, we will be grumpy when the draw results come out and they're not in our favor. 


This is my last year in the 5 year waiting period for LE Elk. I understand the odds of me drawing another LE tag in this state and its not good. I'll be dead before I draw that tag again. I'm good with that, I'll more than likely not apply for a LE Elk tag again. 


I can hunt Yotes, fish, putter around with my new hobby of knife making and trap to fill my need for activity in the woods and outdoors. I hope I can make money doing it and apply that to out of state tags. 

Believe it or not, I'm not a negative individual and have a passion for the outdoors! But its difficult to keep that enthusiasm when I see how bad the numbers of the herds have diminished in my time afield. 


I get more excited seeing one of my kids or grandkids shoot their first buck. I was fortunate to be able to mount that 3x3 buck for my grandson. He still talks about it and how Grandpa showed him to gut it and cut it up for packing out. THAT, is what hunting is all about in my book. Not drawing a tag every year.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I just like being out there wandering around. I've taken good deer, elk, speed goats, turkeys, lions, etc with all three weapons. If I get a good one fine, if I don't fine. But I don't knock the person who shoots a "little" one, as long as they are happy with it. 
I have just as much fun when I have a tag as when I don't. Love to be the camp cook and chief bottle washer. (And maybe bartender once in a while)
Like taxidermist said, I get a bigger kick out of helping the kids or grandkids get their first or biggest one now..........
We took my grandson's buck mount he got year before last on the muzzle hunt to hang up at the cabin the other day. He was 13 when he got it........It was a pretty good 4x5. He was so proud to put it in the cabin. He actually shot it in the area of the cabin. 
That's what it is all about for me these days.

Things have changed, it will never be the old days again. We will all have to adjust and learn to make the most of the times we'll get a tag, and learn how to enjoy the years we do not get a tag.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

taxidermist said:


> Maybe you should stay home from now on if hunting in general doesn't meet your expectations anymore.
> 
> 
> I've never stated that hunting in general doesn't meet my expectations. You've interpreted that in your thinking.
> ...


I might be an interested buyer, do any drop point blades?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> Active dialog in throwing ideas out there to obtain that goal is what I've been reading thus far.


But your ideas are the only reasonable or valid ones on here is all I'm seeing though. Everyone else's is just "sh!t for brains ideas", as you put it.

All you have done is complain about the quality of hunting in Utah currently. If you are satisfied with hunting in general, you certainly don't portray that in your posts about it. For someone that's so about "the hunt" itself and not the outcome of a filled tag or not, you sure seem to be mad about the lack of opportunities to fill your tags, should you be fortunate enough to draw one first.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

Here are my two cents:

I'm not interested in hunting low success hunts multiple times per year.


I don't think the state should cater exclusively to trophy hunters.

Hunting right now is better than what I've seen in my 30+ years of hunting. 

I think the buck to doe management ratios have been the single best thing for making a decent hunt where you can regularly see bucks. There are left overs for breeding and sheds.. I actually see mature bucks almost every day I hunt. Contrast that with 1989 when I saw one yearling buck the last day of the 10 day hunt. 

I'd rather hunt every 2 years and have a quality hunt. If its a 5-year wait, I'll find a different hobby. 

All of this talk of technology fouling up the hunt is nonsense. So what if a guy kills a deer at 1000 yards every two years. When I was a kid, people party hunted and pushed deer to each other. They killed a bunch of deer every year with their lever action, scoped bolt action, or a pump rifle. They found tags later.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I might be an interested buyer, do any drop point blades?

I'm not going to be selling anything yet, I want to get it down and make a quality product that I would be proud to offer to someone. I did Taxidermy for two years prior to offering a service. I believe in high end quality work.


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## olibooger (Feb 13, 2019)

Hell yes. American made quality. 👌


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I missed this thread over the weekend... Do I scroll 7 pages or did someone drop the antler restriction data on him that shows only a short term benefit?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

MooseMeat said:


> Pick up a bow!


Stop telling people this. Saw units this year with better ML odds than archery odds.

STOP PICKING UP BOWS.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> I missed this thread over the weekend... Do I scroll 7 pages or did someone drop the antler restriction data on him that shows only a short term benefit?


Yes, that data was dropped. Certainly no need to scroll through the pages as this thread is basically the same as every other one we do on the subject every 6 months or so.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

RandomElk16 said:


> Stop telling people this. Saw units this year with better ML odds than archery odds.
> 
> STOP PICKING UP BOWS.


and the problem is??

The Muzzleloader is the best hunt we have! The less people who do it, the better!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Strip the scopes off of the muzzle loaders and only allow black powder or loose black powder substitute and it will get even better.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Critter said:


> Strip the scopes off of the muzzle loaders and only allow black powder or loose black powder substitute and it will get even better.


Still haven't swapped the 1x off my ML since the scope changes. I felt privileged to use the 1x for my astigmatism - throwing a 3x9 on there seems down right silly.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

I honestly don't know if removing the scope would change my hunt at all. It's the rut, changing leaves and transitioning bucks. Crisp mornings, borderline to warm afternoons, and beautiful sunsets with a bit of chill in the air as you hike out in the dark. IMO those factors are the best reasons to hunt the ML hunt. Archery is hot, October is a Zoo and the ML hunt is right about perfect.

Every time I see the scopes rule change on muzzy's brought up, I wonder how many people went out and bought a muzzleloader. Scoped it with a fancy Nightforce that cost twice as much as the gun. Loaded up a max powder charge and a 250gr bullet, sighted in a 1.5" group at 100yds in 10 shots and figured they were good to 500 yds come September? I then wonder if they realized that shooting any distance with a muzzleloader is a bit more difficult, that they then switched back to centerfire. After the rule change, I couldn't find hardly any bullets or Blackhorn on any shelf in Utah County in the months after the draw leading to the hunt. Going off the stock available now until the week before the hunt I wonder, have the stores forecasted better and order more, or are there less people applying. Going off the leftover tags, I'm guessing the latter.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> Strip the scopes off of the muzzle loaders and only allow black powder or loose black powder substitute and it will get even better.


And I would add: Full bore conicals, no sabots. Oh yea, and exposed ignitions 

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> Still haven't swapped the 1x off my ML since the scope changes. I felt privileged to use the 1x for my astigmatism - throwing a 3x9 on there seems down right silly.


1x helped my astigmatism too... I hoped for a 2x rule change for my tired eyes, I personally opposed opening it up to any magnification.

-DallanC


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I find it interesting how people push back on limiting technology, yet clamor to limit opportunity. What kind of future tech is coming that will impact herds even more, thus decreasing the opportunity to hunt? Something has to give.....


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Packout said:


> I find it interesting how people push back on limiting technology, yet clamor to limit opportunity. What kind of future tech is coming that will impact herds even more, thus decreasing the opportunity to hunt? Something has to give.....


They seem to think that hunting every 5 years would look like shooting a 200" buck at any possible range. If you see it, it's dead.

I would rather chase and not kill the deer I do every year than be promised anything with a break.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

This is a funny thread. I've enjoyed reading it. There have been very few facts to back up anyone's passionate claims. I'll add to it. 



Hunter Tom said:


> I live in the Boulder unit. Why would I want to travel all over to hunt.


This is the ONLY statement from Hunter Tom that I agree with. Everything else he's said has been nonsense. As for hunting anywhere else...I agree. Why would I want to hunt anywhere else?



MooseMeat said:


> Why would you want to travel all over to hunt? Cuz there's plenty of other places out there that are much better than the boulders to hunt.


No there isn't. But I'm OK with some of you thinking that way. In fact, I'd encourage most of you to continue hunting all those better units.
Unlike Hunter Tom, I do not live in the Boulder Unit. I live at the intersection of 5 units (not including Boulder). I choose to drive through Pine Valley, Southwest Desert, Panguitch, Beaver, and Dutton (not to mention Pauns) all just to get to Boulder - and I intentionally avoid driving through Zion (ugh! nightmare!). I'm happy to drive through each of these on my way to hunt Boulder.



Random Elk said:


> Stop telling people this. Saw units this year with better ML odds than archery odds.
> 
> STOP PICKING UP BOWS.


100% agree. Keep it up.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

RandomElk16 said:


> Still haven't swapped the 1x off my ML since the scope changes. I felt privileged to use the 1x for my astigmatism - throwing a 3x9 on there seems down right silly.


I have a 3x9 on a muzzle loader that I won last year and used it last year in Utah where my shot on my buck was around 50 yards.



DallanC said:


> And I would add: Full bore conicals, no sabots. Oh yea, and exposed ignitions
> 
> -DallanC


That would be nice but just going as far as what Colorado has done would help. They don't allow sabots or pellets but do allow closed system ignitions like the 209's.



DallanC said:


> 1x helped my astigmatism too... I hoped for a 2x rule change for my tired eyes, I personally opposed opening it up to any magnification.
> 
> -DallanC


My eyes are just as bad as the rest of yours even after having cataract surgery on both eyes. Now I can see distance just fine but have a hard time focusing the front and rear sights on a animal. For this I went to a peep sight and just last year I put a SeeAll delta sight on my Colorado muzzle loader since it is legal. I have yet to put that sight onto a animal but hope to this September.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Critter said:


> Strip the scopes off of the muzzle loaders and only allow black powder or loose black powder substitute and it will get even better.


Ya, lets remove the use of decoys for waterfowl, the use of fish finders, and the only watercraft to be used in dug-out boat. LOL You'll also have to go back to paper application forms for the hunts and put in the mail and make sure its post dated before the last day of the application date.

Are we now going to pick and choose what form of technology we use for whatever application it benefits one?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm just saying that they need to go back to what the muzzy hunt was intended for. 

The way it is now they could allow all single shot rifles, black powder or smokeless. That is all the hunt has turned into.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> I'm just saying that they need to go back to what the muzzy hunt was intended for.
> 
> The way it is now they could allow all single shot rifles, black powder or smokeless. That is all the hunt has turned into.


This is where we disagree. The DWR has virtually always considered them "rifles". All the way up until Opt2 came out, they were the same weapons pool as rifle. Pay the $6 and you could swap your back and forth at any time prior to the hunts starting.

The DWR only distinguished between "Rifle" and "archery".

The original "Muzzleloader" licenses were just a 1 week extension to the rifle season for frontstuffers. You used your rifle unused tag if you shot one (at this time a hunter could also have a buck archery tag... that's right young folk, you could shoot 2 bucks per year in Utah).

Anywho, I've never seen a Utah muzzleloader tag that ever said "Primitive" on it.

Oh and sabots have been allowed, banned for a short period, and legalized again. So its not crazy to think they could limit thigns again. But IMO, the DWR doesnt really care what people use to kill animals. If we get too successful at it, they limit the tags. If we arent killing enough they raise the tags.

/shrug

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Ok, then they should change the regs to allow me to take my .270 Weatherby single shot rifle with a 6.5-20 scope on it hunting during the "muzzle loader" hunt

Let's fall back in line with what it appears that they wanted to offer.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> Ok, then they should change the regs to allow me to take my .270 Weatherby single shot rifle with a 6.5-20 scope on it hunting during the "muzzle loader" hunt
> 
> Let's fall back in line with what it appears that they wanted to offer.


well, from the Guidebook:

"... your muzzleloader
must meet all of the following requirements:

•*It can be loaded only from the muzzle*.

•It may have open sights, peep sights or a
variable- or fixed-power scope, including
a magnifying scope.

•It can have only one barrel, and the barrel
must be at least 18 inches long.

•It cannot be capable of firing more than
once without being reloaded.

•*The powder and bullet-or powder,
sabot and bullet-cannot be bonded
together as one unit for loading*.

•*It must be loaded with black powder
or a black powder substitute. The black
powder or black powder substitute cannot contain smokeless powder, but may
contain some nitrocellulose*.
..."

I don't think that single-shot weatherby meets all the requirements.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Critter said:


> I have a 3x9 on a muzzle loader that I won last year and used it last year in Utah where my shot on my buck was around 50 yards.
> 
> *See I wouldn't feel the need to go out and swap the scope from something you won... but also at 50 yards it demonstrates how unnecessary they really are.*
> 
> My eyes are just as bad as the rest of yours even after having cataract surgery on both eyes. Now I can see distance just fine but have a hard time focusing the front and rear sights on a animal. For this I went to a peep sight and just last year I put a SeeAll delta sight on my Colorado muzzle loader since it is legal. I have yet to put that sight onto a animal but hope to this September.





Critter said:


> My eyes are just as bad as the rest of yours even after having cataract surgery on both eyes. Now I can see distance just fine but have a hard time focusing the front and rear sights on a animal. For this I went to a peep sight and just last year I put a SeeAll delta sight on my Colorado muzzle loader since it is legal. I have yet to put that sight onto a animal but hope to this September.


Those are pretty rad! I hadn't heard of them before.

Having the cross-hair is what really helps me out. For some reason one of the few things I still shoot well open sighted is the 10-22.

30-30 isn't bad at 100 yards but I have considered topping it with a small sight and keeping the open sights as well (integral mount or "see-through" mount).


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The furthest that I have ever shot a animal with a muzzle loader has been 120 yards, and I have never even thought about trying to pop one over 150 yards. 

5 years ago if I had a variable power scope on my muzzle loader in the Book Cliffs I would of dropped a buck that was well over 200 inches that was standing 250 yards away. But at that time they only allowed 1x and I had my Colorado legal ML with just a peep sight and didn't dare take that shot. 


All I am saying as far as regulations is that the DOW deems it to be a "muzzle loader" hunt. Not a "primitive" hunt", and not a single shot rifle hunt. 

However it has turned into a single shot rifle hunt. There are a number of members here that have stated on the forum here that they have taken shots up to 300 yards on deer and elk with their muzzle loaders with scopes on them. In my opinion this wasn't the intent of the muzzle loader hunt.

But like they say about opinions and rear ends, everyone has one.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

So, a few things.



> "How about a system where you can hunt buck deer every year? And it grossly increases DWR's deer tag income. It is called antler restrictions and has been absolutely proven successful."


For your information on Antler restrictions. I do not think it means what you think it means.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/(X(1)A(cCbUax1ubwr4ugbM1pKDiqUKHI5MtZanVYj_L84pOVALr3ijqNtQR7cQ9-fhjy4hpgx4lW5j5OccbDoZqwkDHdizqpkosoB2nCXYnHAfLT_KO9FB74iWKZLJJnXS4mSindJibz2WMQXBYzLKqSUiiw2))/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule%20Deer%20Initiative/WAFWA/MDWG_UnderstandingMuleDeerandAntlerPoint.pdf

THE GOOD

• Decreases hunter pressure and total buck harvest by discouraging some hunters who do not want to be restricted to a particular antler-sized buck. This can be beneficial when harvest is heavy in relation to the number of available bucks, but not heavy enough to warrant changing to limited quota seasons.

• In some cases, antler point restrictions have increased the proportion of bucks in the population, but this effect may not be long-lasting.

• In remote areas with limited access, antler point restrictions have been used in combination with general seasons to maintain hunter opportunity.

THE BAD

• Antler point restrictions focus all the hunting pressure on the oldest age classes of bucks, gradually decrease the average age of the buck segment of the population, and make it more difficult for bucks to reach the older age classes due to the displaced harvest pressure.

• Antler point restrictions have been shown to reduce the number of trophy bucks over time by protecting only the smaller-antlered young bucks.

• Antler point restrictions do not increase fawn production or population size. Even in herds with very low buck:doe ratios (<10:100), pregnancy rates are well over 90%. Large increases in buck ratios result in relatively few, or no, additional fawns.

THE UGLY

• Antler point restrictions dramatically reduce hunter participation, harvest success, and total harvest.

• Antler point restrictions increase the number of deer shot and illegally left in the field; this can be significant, and has been documented in Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Nevada, and Montana.

• Antler point restrictions can cheapen the value of young bucks by changing the threshold for success from "a buck" to a quest where only a big buck will do.

• Antler point restrictions may discourage hunters (especially beginning and young hunters) by increasing the difficulty of locating and identifying legal deer.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> The furthest that I have ever shot a animal with a muzzle loader has been 120 yards, and I have never even thought about trying to pop one over 150 yards.


Well done sir 

A few years ago I took a shot at 147 yards (got it), but the vast, vast majority of deer I've killed have been 60 yards or less. I liked the 1x, as you stated it was hard to see the front and rear open sights... but as most people who have used a 1x know, it actually makes the target slightly smaller. I was all set to be happy with a 2x scope limit, IMO the perfect smokepole sight power.

Anyone know what the power was of those civil war brass scopes? I'm genuinely curious.

-DallanC


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Hunter Tom said:


> I forgot to add that we have operated under antler restrictions for a long time with spike elk.


There is difference in mule deer and elk when it comes to antler restrictions.

https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/whitetail-deer/do-antler-point-restrictions-work

This is an article breaking it down.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Anyone know what the power was of those civil war brass scopes? I'm genuinely curious.
> 
> -DallanC


I have read that they were 3x all the way up to 20x

I can't even think of the optic quality on them but I am sure that if you had the money you could get a pretty good one

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

2full said:


> Ya...... Muzzleloader hunt is no more a primitive weapon hunt than fly to the moon anymore.
> Archery is about the same way.


Right.

People shoot compound bows farther now than I would shoot a traditional muzzle-loader with open sights.

The Technology in bow hunting is incredible.

They even have what basically amounts to turrets on bows now.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> They even have what basically amounts to turrets on bows now.


Its even well beyond that now...

https://www.amazon.com/Crosman-BABPNBX-Benjamin-Pioneer-Airbow/dp/B01BKBWMV2










/boggle

-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I might not have many physical advantages over most people...but my eyesight is one of them (for now)! I'm all for no scopes on muzzleloaders (and even after the change I stuck with iron sights). 

My farthest ML shot was 307 yards, no scope and that doe deer dropped like a rock. Every other ML kill of mine has been between 3-30 yards. It's more fun to get in close, and once you do I find the scope (even a 1x) to be a hindrance.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

That’s it, make all hunts archery only. Have there be a separate season for the trad guys and a separate season for compound. At the very least, archery should cover peak rut


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Back to Tang sights I guess 

I should get a 60MOA elevation range 1,000 yard sight ordered up... lol










-DallanC


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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

I'm with Dallan on the Muzzy scopes, I was against it. I think the scopes should be limited. But it is legal so I just mounted a Vortex 4x16 power on a Remington Ultimate muzzleloader. That gun can be capable of shots of 500+ yards with the right powder and bullet. With my set up though I am just hoping for consistency out to 300. My preference is to shoot one about 50 though...


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

“They even have what basically amounts to turrets on bows now”

That’s not new. There has been archery turret sights since the mid 90s.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Raptorman said:


> I'm with Dallan on the Muzzy scopes, I was against it. I think the scopes should be limited. But it is legal so I just mounted a Vortex 4x16 power on a Remington Ultimate muzzleloader. That gun can be capable of shots of 500+ yards with the right powder and bullet. With my set up though I am just hoping for consistency out to 300. My preference is to shoot one about 50 though...


I went and verified my drop data for my UM yesterday morning. Up until then I had only shot it at 100 to determine the load I wanted to use.. First shot at 500 and 600 were 3" low. Adjusted my velocity on the app and the next 2 shots were right in there. Would I shoot that far at an animal? Probably not. But I like having option if the right scenario presents itself.


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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> I went and verified my drop data for my UM yesterday morning. Up until then I had only shot it at 100 to determine the load I wanted to use.. First shot at 500 and 600 were 3" low. Adjusted my velocity on the app and the next 2 shots were right in there. Would I shoot that far at an animal? Probably not. But I like having option if the right scenario presents itself.


Nice, what load are you using? Not to hi-jack the thread, just curious.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

MooseMeat said:


> I went and verified my drop data for my UM yesterday morning. Up until then I had only shot it at 100 to determine the load I wanted to use.. First shot at 500 and 600 were 3" low. Adjusted my velocity on the app and the next 2 shots were right in there. Would I shoot that far at an animal? Probably not. But I like having option if the right scenario presents itself.


People read stuff like this and think that taking a 500-600 yard shot with a muzzleloader is easy. Your talking what 500ish ft/lbs of energy at 500 with a 250gr bullet? 33ish MOA? I'm trying to remember what my chart says, I only print off to 300 on mine because at that point I'm over 30" drop from my zero and about 800 ft/lbs of energy. That's just statistical facts and we aren't even taking into account the effect of wind on a muzzleloader projectile with the ballistic coefficient less than .3. Even the slightest breeze halfway to your deer puts that round in his haunches if it doesn't outright miss.

It's fun as heck to shoot steel at that range, but *I personally* have some issues with the ethics of shooting an animal that far with my load. If you feel good with it that's you, but some Joe Schmo is going to read this, do what you did but not verify his drops then go try to kill an elk with his OIL\LE Muzz elk tag that he drew after jumping out of the any weapon pool. When that bull steps out at 500 yds, he'll dial and put the fate of that animal into the hands of variables he doesn't understand.

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

It is not a hunting forum if everybody is not telling others how to hunt, what to hunt with, where to hunt and how to make it better in their eyes.

In my opinion the more successful you are at killing critters the less you should be allowed to hunt. After all it is the success ratios that effect the number of tags offered.

Maybe we need to embrace technology and require body cams on all hunters so those who shoot can be monitored. Incorporate with mandatory reporting and problem solved.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Then I should be able to hunt a lot. I have tagged only 3 deer in Utah in the last 15 or so years 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I've tagged 4 of my 5 biggest bucks in the last 10 years. And I'm in my mid 60'S. 
They are out there if you are willing to be patient and do your homework. 
I've done much better since I slowed down and just started hanging out. :mrgreen:


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> Then I should be able to hunt a lot. I have tagged only 3 deer in Utah in the last 15 or so years
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


#Me too but I hunt every year (no lifetime licence).


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I know a way y'all can hunt up to 5 bucks, any bull elk, bull moose, sheep, 2 mountain goats, and then some every year if you want...


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

johnnycake said:


> I know a way y'all can hunt up to 5 bucks, any bull elk, bull moose, sheep, 2 mountain goats, and then some every year if you want...


Yeah, yeah...we all know...move to Alaska... &#128578;


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> Yeah, yeah...we all know...move to Alaska... &#128578;


Don't encourage him! Ain't nobody got time for all that hunting.

Just shut up cake!

(in my jealous voice...)


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MWScott72 said:


> Yeah, yeah...we all know...move to Alaska... &#128578;


I wonder how many it would take to destroy Johnny's dream life?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

middlefork said:


> I wonder how many it would take to destroy Johnny's dream life?


Most of y'all couldn't cut it


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Or most of us would turn into Fisherman. 



Salmon, Steelhead, Halibut, Ling Cod, Rock Fish, Shrimp, Crabs, Mussells, Clams, Grayling, Trout, etc. 



Who has time to hunt when you can fill the freezer fishing?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Or most of us would turn into Fisherman.
> 
> Salmon, Steelhead, Halibut, Ling Cod, Rock Fish, Shrimp, Crabs, Mussells, Clams, Grayling, Trout, etc.
> 
> Who has time to hunt when you can fill the freezer fishing?


I read that while eating a nice lunch of sauteed porcini from the Kenai peninsula and Cook Inlet razor clams in a cream sauce with snow peas from my daughter's "garden." You've got a bit of a point there...but the best thing is that you can just combine them with a bunch of spectacular blast and cast trip options.

Why choose when you can just get a bigger freezer (again)?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

johnnycake said:


> Most of y'all couldn't cut it


That wilderness called Anchorage must be tough!

Enjoy. I just can't see the up side of inviting everybody to move.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

middlefork said:


> That wilderness called Anchorage must be tough!
> 
> Enjoy. I just can't see the up side of inviting everybody to move.


It would become easier to draw a tag here in Utah.:mrgreen:


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

taxidermist said:


> It would become easier to draw a tag here in Utah.:mrgreen:


There is that! :grin:


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Hunter Tom said:


> Pennsylvania absolutely proved that antler restrictions work. They moved away from almost total yearling harvest and they get to hunt 4 or 5 deer seasons every year. Success rate is low but good hunters do well.
> 
> https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/Wil...edDeer/Pages/AntlerRestrictionsAreTheyWorking.
> 
> ...


There is a difference between Mule Deer, Whitetailed Deer, and Elk management when it comes to APR.

https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/whitetail-deer/do-antler-point-restrictions-work

To Quote the Article

"APRs don't produce many trophy bucks," Heffelfinger said. "They're good at creating more 2½- and maybe 3½-year-olds. That might be fine for elk hunters and Eastern whitetail hunters, but that's not what most hunters want from mule deer." Jim Heffelfinger Arizona Game and Fish Department and a research scientist at the University of Arizona

Heffelfinger said hunters also accept APRs more readily if they can shoot a doe or cow, but mule deer herds in many Western habitats don't offer such safety valves. He said an easier, more sustainable way to produce bigger muleys is to restrict license sales, which Western hunters accept but Eastern hunters reject.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

johnnycake said:


> I read that while eating a nice lunch of sauteed porcini from the Kenai peninsula and Cook Inlet razor clams in a cream sauce with snow peas from my daughter's "garden." You've got a bit of a point there...but the best thing is that you can just combine them with a bunch of spectacular blast and cast trip options.
> 
> Why choose when you can just get a bigger freezer (again)?


At some point your options will outweigh the amount of time that you have off. Lol


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

All the fish and clam talk... lemme tell ya, the absolute BEST tasting fish we brought back from our Juneau trip this past fall were a few huge Pacific Cod my son caught. We took him up for a graduation trip (he graduated with a 3.94). 

He caught lots of everything, but when we boated the first cod, he didnt know what to think. The captain asked "Keeping it or tossing it?" LOL... my son looked at me in bewilderment, I simply asked "Do you like fish sticks? Thats cod". He grinned and in the fish box it went. Oddly I've NEVER been on a boat that caught a pacific cod let alone caught one myself... well 20 min later he reeled up another one.

Salmon is good, Halibut is great... but lemme tell you, I'll take fresh pacific cod any day over any any other fish. Its amazing every meal. We have very little left  Its interesting they are a stinky fish, but I guess so are halibut.


Anywho back to our regularly scheduled UWN arguing. :mrgreen:


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Talking about Alaska, just remember how nice it is when winter sets in and you forget what the sun looks like. 

But summers are nice if you can avoid the flies and mosquitoes. But then that is what head nets are for:rotfl:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> Talking about Alaska, just remember how nice it is when winter sets in and you forget what the sun looks like.


Agreed... at Barrow. But Ketchikan isnt much different than Seattle.



> But summers are nice if you can avoid the flies and mosquitoes. But then that is what head nets are for:rotfl:


Oh jeeze. Me and Packout were fishing a small stream near Soldotna when the sun went down... idk what the hell the little bugs were that came out in clouds in that failing light, but those SOBs had TEETH, tiny bugs, but bit like a deer fly. It was MISERABLE... but the fishing was too good to stop. Coho and dollys.

I immediately bought headnets when I got home from that trip.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Agreed... at Barrow. But Ketchikan isnt much different than Seattle.
> 
> -DallanC


But who wants to live in Seattle?

I visited there a few times when I was working and decided that I didn't need to go back.

On Ketchikan they get a whole 7 hours of daylight on 12/21


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

taxidermist said:


> It would become easier to draw a tag here in Utah.:mrgreen:


I gotta get that desert sheep tag somehow 

Dallan, sounds like no-see-ums. Hate those things.

Yeah how terrible it is to be up here in the winter. The ice fishing options are overwhelmingly numbers and the catching wears your arms out. The snowshoe hare, grouse, and ptarmigan seasons and bag limits are way too liberal. Pure misery. And don't even get me started on the annoying green and purple shifting lights in the sky that keep you awake at night.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> All the fish and clam talk... lemme tell ya, the absolute BEST tasting fish we brought back from our Juneau trip this past fall were a few huge Pacific Cod my son caught. W
> 
> Salmon is good, Halibut is great... but lemme tell you, I'll take fresh pacific cod any day over any any other fish.


I took my wife and kids out a couple years ago in California. We were catching rock fish. Of everything we've ever eaten, my wife still talks about how good those rock fish were. Easily her favorite.

so, how many rock fish did you turn loose with your son that day??


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