# Utah House OKs move to let Utah adults carry guns without permit



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Utah House OKs move to let Utah adults carry guns without permit

Talked to my Representative today and he said this passed the house today, now goes to the senate.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Found an article

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2021/01/26/utah-house-oks-move-let/


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I’ve got a lot of concerns with this. 

I like the idea that it’s pro-2A but I worry that there could be a lot of people who don’t understand the responsibility of carry that could really get themselves into trouble. 

Reciprocity is another issue that concerns me. Utah has a highly sought after permit due to our reciprocity. What will happen there?


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

And I just paid for my permit. How bout that. Still the right step in the right direction. 


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Bax* said:


> I've got a lot of concerns with this.
> 
> I like the idea that it's pro-2A but I worry that there could be a lot of people who don't understand the responsibility of carry that could really get themselves into trouble.
> 
> Reciprocity is another issue that concerns me. Utah has a highly sought after permit due to our reciprocity. What will happen there?


Part of this actually is that you can still get a permit for going out of state. I read up on it yesterday so reciprocity should still be good.

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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Brettski7 said:


> Part of this actually is that you can still get a permit for going out of state. I read up on it yesterday so reciprocity should still be good.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah I read that too. I still worry the move could damage that reciprocity. I hope I'm wrong


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Bax* said:


> Yeah I read that too. I still worry the move could damage that reciprocity. I hope I'm wrong


Well it could be setup like Idaho actually. Their advanced permit is the permit I want really as it's better than Utah's as far as reciprocity and they are a not permit state. So if it's anything like that it should be good.

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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Mixed feelings:


Plus:
1. Pro 2A, that sends a message.

2. We join the ranks of the Constitutional states.

3. Urinates in the Dems wheaties and will make most of the recent west coast transplants uncomfortable.

4. Issued permit will still be available, and I prefer having it anyway
a.) Local LEO's will know ive been through the background check system every month If i'm ever stopped.
b.) Expedited NICS at the LGS. Gotta love that quick "is the permit valid?" phone call.


Minus:
1. Possible reciprocity changes.

2. Uneducated people will start carrying. (this is a big one actually)
The state should set up some sort of easily accessible PDF or something outlining the things you learn in a class, and encourage people to read it. Not that they will.

As long as I can still get a permit issued/renewed, I'll just roll with it, but I'll have my reservations about peoples education level from a legal perspective. From a practical perspective, most people who go through a CFP course can't shoot for **** anyway (assuming the instructor does a live fire), so a permit makes no difference in this regard.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I am a proponent of gun safety training for everyone. Not just gun owners.

And that being said you are still going to have people do stupid things with them trained or not. You can't legislate stupidity out of people.

I haven't looked at the proposal but does it allow loaded (one in the pipe) in addition? Currently open carry does not.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

middlefork said:


> I haven't looked at the proposal but does it allow loaded (one in the pipe) in addition? Currently open carry does not.


That's a good point. It is lawful to open carry with a round in the chamber if you have a concealed permit, so does this affect the open carry law? Will a permit still be required to open carry with a round in the chamber?


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Yeah that is a very good point. Currently a CFP allows you to carry a chambered round. I believe that extends into open carry, but I could be mistaken. Without a permit, you can open carry 2 actions from firing.


Going to be some confusion there for sure.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I originally got a CCP so I could take my son hunting in the mornings, then drop him off at school on the way back.

-DallanC


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## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

Now we ned to become a 2nd amendment sanctuary state like Alaska. Wyoming, Arizona,
Idaho, and now Texas?

Stop Uncle Joe cold in his tracks


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Mixed feelings:
> 
> Plus:
> 1. Pro 2A, that sends a message.
> ...


There is actually a free app called Legal Heat (they teach a lot of classes here) that has a lot of information and all the laws for every state. So that's available for anyone to download and access. Along with the website also with same info I think.

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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Natural Born Killer said:


> Now we ned to become a 2nd amendment sanctuary state like Alaska. Wyoming, Arizona,
> Idaho, and now Texas?
> 
> Stop Uncle Joe cold in his tracks


I'm not too familiar with this but if it's what I'm assuming it is then that's a great idea actually. I'll have to read up on it.

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The whole idea of becoming a "sanctuary," regardless of the topic, is stupid to me.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Vanilla said:


> The whole idea of becoming a "sanctuary," regardless of the topic, is stupid to me.


Why is that?

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Just my opinion. I think those entrusted with enforcing the law should do just that.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Vanilla said:


> Just my opinion. I think those entrusted with enforcing the law should do just that.


I agree. I find stupid though is the need for something become a sanctuary.

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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

The context, and motivation behind any "sanctuary" is key. Some are just purely political for political gain, others are a pushback from things unconstitutional. Regardless of political gain vs constitutionality, the fact that a sanctuary of any sort exists at all shows a breakdown in the system at some level.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> The whole idea of becoming a "sanctuary," regardless of the topic, is stupid to me.


Pointless, anyway. Box Elder, Cache, Uintah, Utah and Wayne counties are all 2A sanctuary counties, yet federal gun laws and county ordinances still apply.

Same kind of silliness as the "constitutional right to hunt" in a state that continues to dictate the who, what, when, where, why and how as it grants its permission to some of us.

Speaking of pointless and silly, back to Utah's CCP. I took the course twice. I'll admit that the instructor makes all the difference, but I'm expired again and won't be renewing. The only times I ever pulled that card out of my wallet in 10 years was to make gun purchases anyway.

If we're serious about guns, seems to me we have 2 choices. We can either improve the course to include proficiency training (requiring more time, attention and money) or we can remove an otherwise unnecessary infringement.

Unlike most CCP holders, I've had tactical training. But I'm not a gunfighter. I'm just an outdoorsman who wants to carry under my coat without being on the wrong side of the law.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Lone_Hunter said:


> The context, and motivation behind any "sanctuary" is key. Some are just purely political for political gain, others are a pushback from things unconstitutional. Regardless of political gain vs constitutionality, the fact that a sanctuary of any sort exists at all shows a breakdown in the system at some level.


But therein lies my rub: it's not up to a county sheriff or a mayor or a commission to determine what is constitutional and what is not. Under the constitution, that power is reserved entirely to the courts. So if we want to say we like the constitution out of one side of our mouth, we then can't turn around and cheer on unconstitutional actions by legislative or executive officers.

So yes, a sanctuary "anything" is dumb, in my opinion. If you think something is unconstitutional, fight it out in court and get an answer. That is how our system is set up.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Well, now your pinning my back to the political wall that I'm trying to avoid. I'll attempt to sidestep that wall by just saying, the way things are going, at some point it may not matter anymore.


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## strebort (Mar 18, 2018)

Governor signed the bill today. Carry away. 

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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

strebort said:


> Governor signed the bill today. Carry away.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


Not quite. Doesn't go into effect until May


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Bax* said:


> I like the idea that it's pro-2A but I worry that there could be a lot of people who don't understand the responsibility of carry that could really get themselves into trouble.


The uneducated have an astounding amount of misconceptions, just a few I've heard that can get them in trouble ranging from fines to prison time all the way up to the ultimate:

1) "Well I guess if you get in an argument you're safe if it escalates." No, if you start an argument and bring a gun into it your lawyer is going to laugh at you. Even if the other guy started it and you didn't take every opportunity to walk away you're likely in trouble.

2) Warning shots, shoot to wound: prison time. If you aren't afraid for your life or the life of another when you draw your weapon, you're already in trouble. The fact that you shot to wound or fired a warning shot is literally the proof that the other guy's lawyer is going to use that you didn't fear for your life and so didn't satisfy the law.

3) "I can use it to feel safer while driving." Drive to Nevada with a permit? Sure. New Mexico? Confiscation, possible jail time. Don't know you're required to secure your gun in your unattended car and it gets stolen? YOU get fined if it gets stolen, not to mention now there's a criminal out there that could kill someone any day with your weapon.

4) Suicide. Big one. You don't know how much easier it is for a family member to do it with a loaded weapon around until it happens.

If we're not going to require the permit we should at least require some training just to protect people from themselves, and if we can't require it should be strongly recommended and/or advertised.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Jedidiah said:


> The uneducated have an astounding amount of misconceptions, just a few I've heard that can get them in trouble ranging from fines to prison time all the way up to the ultimate:
> 
> 1) "Well I guess if you get in an argument you're safe if it escalates." No, if you start an argument and bring a gun into it your lawyer is going to laugh at you. Even if the other guy started it and you didn't take every opportunity to walk away you're likely in trouble.


Heh, you know there have been times when I REALLY wanted to flip someone off while driving but didn't because I was carrying. I just don't want it to go there. I've even have some guy follow me home because he presumably didn't like the bumpersticker on my truck. I just kept driving in circles in the general area until he gave up and went away. 99% of the time, i'm a very passive guy. I don't look for fights, but I know myself well enough to know that once that switch has been flipped, I'm ****ed in the end. So I avoid it.



> 2) Warning shots, shoot to wound: prison time. If you aren't afraid for your life or the life of another when you draw your weapon, you're already in trouble. The fact that you shot to wound or fired a warning shot is literally the proof that the other guy's lawyer is going to use that you didn't fear for your life and so didn't satisfy the law.


Yup, you pretty much have to exhaust all reasonable means of de-esecalation, and avoiding a situation, and have deadly force threatened/used against you before your justified in even clearing the holster. It really does have to be clear cut.



> 3) "I can use it to feel safer while driving." Drive to Nevada with a permit? Sure. New Mexico? Confiscation, possible jail time. Don't know you're required to secure your gun in your unattended car and it gets stolen? YOU get fined if it gets stolen, not to mention now there's a criminal out there that could kill someone any day with your weapon.


Never leave a gun in the car/truck. Some guys might, I never do. I think its stupid, especially with crime on the rise. The old days of "happy valley" are long over with.



> 4) Suicide. Big one. You don't know how much easier it is for a family member to do it with a loaded weapon around until it happens.


Personally, I can't imagine it. Though I think a lot of people say the same thing.



> If we're not going to require the permit we should at least require some training just to protect people from themselves, and if we can't require it should be strongly recommended and/or advertised.


Theres apps you can d/l to your phone that has laws/rules/regulations/ no gun zones, and state reprocity. If one already has a permit, Id imagine this is old news, but it should be advertised so other people who will start carrying, will have something handy to refer too.

As an aside, I carry so often, 90% of the time when dealing with other people, I forget I have it on me. It hasn't changed me in what "id take" from other people.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I loved my concealed class. I have been around guns and hunting my entire life, but that was a class I could have spend a few more hours in. I don't think there is an end to firearm education. 

After the class my opinion, an unpopular one, was actually that you should also be required to have a shooting portion to the class. 

I would hate for there to be more folks carrying that have little knowledge and no experience. This year there was a spike in "new" gun owners which actually puts the 2A in more jeopardy if they also make headlines for being a moron and doing something stupid. 


So I agree with a lot of the pro's and con's folks have listed. Ultimately, I think society as a whole needs a higher level of firearm education. Both pro-gun and anti. 






PS - Far more worried about what is about to happen at a federal level. Besides the FPC, any recommends on orgs we should support in that fight?


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

RandomElk16 said:


> After the class my opinion, an unpopular one, was actually that you should also be required to have a shooting portion to the class.


I agree with you 100%. The course I took did have a live fire portion to it. Good instructor, ex cop as i recall though I couldn't remember his name now if you asked me.

What was instructional to me in the live fire portion was just how bad a shot most people are. You can tell who spent some time on the range and who didn't. At the time I was shooting 100-200 arounds a week at an indoor range. At 7 yards, I kid you not, the majority of shot groupings where probably 12". People were hitting the paper, that's about the best I can recall.

For my part I had a one ragged hole target going shooting my M9A1 that id practiced with each week, then the instructor came up to me, handed me a ruger LCR and said, "Here, that should ruin that pretty picture". Being the smart ass that I am, I put them all in the head instead of center of mass. Grouping wasn't as tight as my 1 ragged hole, but I was right proud of myself for keeping my picture pretty. :mrgreen:

But.... that's the flat range, which isn't real life... soo.. there's that.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Education and practice should defiantly be encouraged. 

The problem always comes with that pesky word "required".


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I’ve had the chance to take a pretty in-depth course with shooting and also live scenarios (paint rounds) we played out. I saw the same thing as Lone, although my shooting left much to be desired from the real pros. I view myself as a pretty terrible shot, actually, even though I rarely missed the silhouette. (Until I got out to 20 yards. I sucked at 20 yards.) 

I don’t have a strong opinion either way on the “constitutional carry” issue. I’m doubtful it will result in a huge amount of more people concealed carrying. Utah’s law to get a permit was so easy anyway, it’s not like it ever prevented people from getting one. And if you can’t pass the background check, you likely are not lawful to carry a firearm under the new law anyway. 

The cold hard truth is that I trust less than 5% of the gun carrying population with a firearm in their hand in a live fire situation. Including myself.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

If you ever want to get a very rough approximation on how much you'll actually hit your target under stress, next time your at an indoor firing range do this:

1. Take a rigid target (not a paper one which will blow in the wind)
2. Send the target ALL the way back to the end of the track.
3. Lay your handgun on the bench.
4. In the control panel in the lane your in, program the target to come ALL the way home, like, in your face. At the range I was using the key commands were SHIFT + HOME
5. Done properly, the target should come straight at you, VERY fast. Grab your handgun off the bench and put as many rounds into the target as you can, as fast as you can before it reaches you. Think of it this way, your in a fight for your life, and someone is bum rushing you.

You'd think, without having to lead a target, you'd land many hits, but the reality is you'll be amazed at how often you'll miss under stress. The flat range is never a substitute for "combat accuracy" under stress.

That goes for anyone really. It took me a several months shooting a couple hundred rounds a week before I was getting one ragged holed targets at 10-15 yards on a *good *day, but what that really means is I was shooting too slow.

Marksmanship with a handgun is a perishable skill. I was "ok" back then, but never match material. I don't think my accuracy would be as good today as when i was practicing often. It's expensive, especially today.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The big problem with pistols is that you need to practice, then practice some more and once you figure that you have practiced enough you need to practice even more. 

Years ago I shot in a pistol league and did very well for myself. I was shooting close to a thousand rounds a week just to stay competitive in it. Since I have gotten out of it I am still better than average but no where close to what I once was and it is all due to practice.

I do however like the scenarios that politicians come up with such as Biden's, get a shotgun and shoot him in the leg type. If you did this the lawyers would be all over you for his medical bills along with long term care and wages. That along with those who say to just shoot him in the arm or shoot the gun out of his hand have watched way too many westerns and cop shows. 

I often asked those with a CC if they are willing to kill a person, and when they look at me with a blank stare I'll repeat it. Some say that they will just shoot the person in the arm or leg, but that is harder than you think at ranges that you have inside of your home. I'll also tell them that the best target is center mass and that you keep shooting until the person is laying down on the ground. 

Some people just can not comprehend that you really need to do something like that if you pull your pistol. But if you ever do pull it you better be ready to use it.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

If I EVER was going to shoot someone (very highly unlikely)……
I would be shooting center mass for sure. and, keep shooting till they quit wiggling.
I would not give them a chance to get back up if my life was in danger.


I have had a CC for many years. Since back in the day you had to be sponsored by law enforcement. I used to take 30-50k to the bank every day for my job. Sometimes more on a holiday weekend.
Ira came to me and told me he wanted me to carry a gun. I told him that if someone came up to me and stuck a gun in my face I would hand them the money and ask if I could write them a check as well. 
I would never be able to get my gun out in time anyway. 


It's just dirty paper after all. :mrgreen:


But, I did take the sponsorship and get the CC.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> The big problem with pistols is that you need to practice, then practice some more and once you figure that you have practiced enough you need to practice even more.
> 
> Years ago I shot in a pistol league and did very well for myself. I was shooting close to a thousand rounds a week just to stay competitive in it. Since I have gotten out of it I am still better than average but no where close to what I once was and it is all due to practice.
> 
> ...


That is also part of the training, you need to have a combat mindset. You will have to decide before hand in training where the line in the sand is drawn that you are willing to take a life because once you do your life will change both monetarily and emotionally. If you don't make that decision before hand and train for it, it could cost you your life.


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## hondodawg (Mar 13, 2013)

Jedidiah said:


> 4) Suicide. Big one. You don't know how much easier it is for a family member to do it with a loaded weapon around until it happens.


My son had a friend who killed himself last month with a gun he found under his parents bed. Worried it could send my son into a deep dark hole. I've locked up or broken down all the weapons(need bigger safe) in the house. We do daily check ins and have used professional help in dealing with my sons grief. He feels very guilty if he could've just seen the text that his friend sent he thinks he could've stopped it.

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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

hondodawg said:


> My son had a friend who killed himself last month with a gun he found under his parents bed. Worried it could send my son into a deep dark hole. I've locked up or broken down all the weapons(need bigger safe) in the house. We do daily check ins and have used professional help in dealing with my sons grief. He feels very guilty if he could've just seen the text that his friend sent he thinks he could've stopped it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is sad hondodawg, I hope his heart and mind heals soon and he comes to understand that he has no responsibility or ability to control his friends feelings and actions.

From a previous situation I can understand his feelings at this point in time.

I will remember your son in my prayers.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Critter said:


> I do however like the scenarios that politicians come up with such as Biden's, get a shotgun and shoot him in the leg type. If you did this the lawyers would be all over you for his medical bills along with long term care and wages. That along with those who say to just shoot him in the arm or shoot the gun out of his hand have watched way too many westerns and cop shows.


A hit to a femoral artery will kill you just as dead as a heart/lung shot, the big difference is it's more messy and takes a bit longer to die.



> I often asked those with a CC if they are willing to kill a person, and when they look at me with a blank stare I'll repeat it. Some say that they will just shoot the person in the arm or leg, but that is harder than you think at ranges that you have inside of your home. I'll also tell them that the best target is center mass and that you keep shooting until the person is laying down on the ground.
> 
> Some people just can not comprehend that you really need to do something like that if you pull your pistol. But if you ever do pull it you better be ready to use it.


 I've seen enough of the world in my 20's to know that the idea that "all life is sacred" is a bunch of BS; and it doesn't matter *who *you are, it matters *what *you are. Especially while your wearing a uniform. That's the reality of the world beyond our borders. It's a concept that flies in the face off today's woke culture that hasn't seen how cold and cruel the world, and people, can really be.


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## utskidad (Apr 6, 2013)

The Bill was a failure on two fronts:

1. Open carry to unlicensed persons continues to be illegal. In a State that is home to the High Uintas, it strikes me as inane that an unlicensed person has to conceal a carry weapon in the backcountry. If you don't, you risk arrest at the next trailhead when some Karen reports you. So if my daughter wants to go backcountry with the girlfriends, she has to secret away her only source of defense. 

2. Everyone is in agreement -- training is fundamentally important to safe carry. So what did they do with half the funds held to date? Gave them to suicide prevention (i.e. anti-gun 501 organizations.) NOT A DIME FOR FIREARM TRAINING FACILITIES LIKE THE DECREPIT LEE KAY!!!!! DUH!!!!!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Open carrying is legal in Utah. Always has been. This law had nothing to do with open carry.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> Open carrying is legal in Utah. Always has been. This law had nothing to do with open carry.


Correct. That said, currently, the difference between having a CFP and not having one, is having to be 2 actions from firing or not while open carrying.

Thinking back on it, I did have a game warden ask me about my 1911 once while I was at camp. I dropped the mag, unchambered the live round, and showed it to him. I guess he thought the grips were cool. He handed it back to me, and went on his way. I don't recall him ever asking for my CFP.

Some people get their CFP just so they can carry a hand gun on the archery hunt. However, that is a separate issue as it pertains more to hunting regulations.

edit: As an aside, I absolutely refuse to conceal carry in the mountains.
Open.. always. No reason to conceal, at all.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

So going forward, the reasons for still obtaining a concealed permit are:


Have a round in the chamber while in open carry
Waive the background check fees when purchasing a firearm
Carry a firearm while bowhunting
Learn the laws associated with defending yourself with deadly force
Anything else?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

brisket said:


> So going forward, the reasons for still obtaining a concealed permit are:
> 
> 
> Have a round in the chamber while in open carry
> ...


The ability to carry in other states that recognize Utah's permit


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Any thoughts on how this could damage reciprocity?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Why would it damage reciprocity? They are two different things.
Reciprocity is determined by the the permit.

As I understand it the new law merely extends the rules of open carry to allow concealing.
2 actions to fire. Not allowed within 600 ft of a school among others.

These people would be constrained by other states laws concerning open / constitutional carry. Not with CCP laws of other states.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If you don't need a permit in Utah some may think that it will carry over to another state that honors Utah's permits or laws and think that they don't need the permit to carry in the other state, which they would 

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## Stickboy2 (Sep 6, 2019)

brisket said:


> So going forward, the reasons for still obtaining a concealed permit are:
> 
> 
> Have a round in the chamber while in open carry
> ...


I would think the federal laws that cover carrying in/thru a school zone would be a concern if you are strapped and dropping of your little one.

The first CCW I picked up was to satisfy the requirement to be able to carry while on one of my kids hunts in SD. Since I didn't have a hunting tag I wasn't allowed to carry a pistol unless I was a CCW. Not sure of Utah's regs in this regard.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Stickboy2 said:


> brisket said:
> 
> 
> > So going forward, the reasons for still obtaining a concealed permit are:
> ...


Can you not carry in a school with the new law change? I was under the assumption you will be able to carry everywhere you normally would with a permit.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

brisket said:


> Can you not carry in a school with the new law change? I was under the assumption you will be able to carry everywhere you normally would with a permit.


I got lost in the legalese so I'll let a lawyer interpret it but my understanding is you would be bound by the restrictions of open carry but allowed to conceal.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Bax* said:


> Any thoughts on how this could damage reciprocity?


There are already states that do not allow reciprocity with Utah's permit because they think we are too relaxed here, and that is with the permit. I know one of the criticisms of this bill was it could impact that. I really don't know how much of a worry it truly is.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> There are already states that do not allow reciprocity with Utah's permit because they think we are too relaxed here, and that is with the permit. I know one of the criticisms of this bill was it could impact that. I really don't know how much of a worry it truly is.


Well said.

This is why I wonder if it could have an impact.

Critter's point was one I hadn't considered.

Don't get me wrong, it's a cool concept but I wonder what unforeseen impacts will manifest themselves.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

fizahydraulic1 said:


> It’s a rather dangerous law, and I wonder if it was implemented. From the information I got online, it is legal to carry a concealed gun with you in Utah if you are over 18, and you do not need permission for that.


hit the road, hippy


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## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

The Creator gave us that unalienable RIGHT, it’s called the 2nd Amendment. Government are derelicts that lie to the liberals that 2A is for MILITIA deer hunting 🥴 
Read The Declaration of Independence, what happens when the government lies, cheats, steals, kills etc……. “Becoming DESTRUCTIVE”……… what is the duty of all Americans when that happens?


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