# TEX's Petty Zoo, Headed south!



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well now TEX , I think ur "Petty Zoo" is in deep Do Do ....

As if 4,400 antler-less cow permits on the Wasatch wasn't enough?

Now , 2013, ANYONE with a general deer tag , spike permit, LE or OIAL tag can NOW just buy a rifle, Over the counter, Cow permit, on 10 units.
Wasatch now inculded!....( plus 100+ November big bull tags this year..)
Link:http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/2013-a...4-how-to-obtain-a-2013-antlerless-permit.html

Heck, Just shoot them elk on the Wasatch while your rifle hunt'in deer:!:

Bet there will be 10,000 cow tag holder's on the Wasatch this fall.....

Oh Ya, Unlimited archery spike/cow hunters first, 
May-be 20k 'cow-boy's' on the Wasatch this fall..What do Ya think TEX?


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

that's all the private land portion of the Wasatch...big deal...all the elk are on the other side of Strawberry/Soldier Creek...

...well there are a few on the Currant Creek side, but I wouldn't look for a herd bull up there ;-)


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## ultramagfan2000 (Nov 27, 2009)

Good heck what do they have against elk on the Wasatch? The Avintaquin has a reputation for steep and deep and the elk are hard to find but they seem bent on total annihilation.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

stablebuck said:


> that's all the private land portion of the Wasatch...big deal...all the elk are on the other side of Strawberry/Soldier Creek...
> 
> ...well there are a few on the Currant Creek side, but I wouldn't look for a herd bull up there ;-)


BS.....Look at the maps......TON's of public ground.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Oh Ya, Unlimited archery spike/cow hunters first,
> May-be 20k 'cow-boy's' on the Wasatch this fall..What do Ya think TEX?


This is GREAT news! I've always said this state was WAY over populated with elk. Sounds like the powers that be are finally pulling their heads out of their collective butts. We cant wait for the wolves forever! Git too killin em!


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

it's either kill them during the hunts or kill them with depredation tags in Duchesne in December/January...you make more money by telling people they have an additional opportunity during the hunts...


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Goofy, weather you or anyone else believes it or not, elk displace deer. Period! Killing more elk is the first step to recovering the deer herds. Hide and watch, there'll be more deer after the elk are thinned to reasonable numbers. Besides, Big deer are worth more $$$$$$$$$$ at the SFW auction anyway. So why wouldn't they want to grow more and bigger bucks? When I was a kid there were deer all over the palce. Too many of em. But we hardly ever saw any elk. Now it's just the opposite. There needs to be balance. The elk in those units will be just fine. They're already getting really good at not getting killed, now they're just going to get that much better at it. Take an aspirin and relax goofy. it'll be Ok!:smile:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Hope yer right TEX, I'd love to see the deer come back:!:

Hope all those crazy Bio's are wrong, and habitats not the REAL factor.

AND TEX, U must have another job lined up for retirement?????

Cuz No ones going to mount rage-horn's and Jakes..(General turkey same direction)

Just curios what your going to do when there not much to mount anymore?;-)


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

-_O- 
You make me laugh goofy! rag horns and jakes... That's funny right there. I'll always have a job goofy. Unless the bird flu comes thorough and wipes em all out... Like the elk the turkeys will be just fine. Just like EVERY other state that has a huntable population. Wait a minute, EVERY state does have a huntable population... I think the turkeys will do even better than I think. This state is covered up with em and hunting them in the terrain they like to live in is perty hard when they get smart. Having a nice big flock of smart turkeys is going to keep all the riff-raff hunters home after they get out there and find out it aint just a "turkey shoot". Turkeys and elk are very much a kin to each other in more ways than you know. The hunting techniques are the same for both, they inhabit the same country, and they're almost impossible to get rid of once they're established. They're a wildlife managers dream! Don't panic buddy, there'll be plenty of both to go around in the future. I promise!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^ Laugh away, UR on the wrong side of this debate^^^^^
Being a a taxi for trade,,,,, Better think twice.....


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> Hope yer right TEX, I'd love to see the deer come back:!:
> 
> Hope all those crazy Bio's are wrong, and habitats not the REAL factor.


If you want the deer to come back, then why do you hope the crazy bio's are wrong?

BTW, most of the wildlife biologists I know, are not crazy, that's the problem.

The better we understand what the limiting factors are that are suppressing deer growth, the more we can do about it. Continuing to try the same old things that have not worked for the last 30 years, will not get us there. It is all about deer health, and habitat is obviously a big part of that.

It may be something very simple, that has been overlooked a thousand times, we don't know until we find it. There was a discovery made about bighorn nutrition last fall, that may have huge implications for bringing bighorn numbers up, and reducing die offs. It is very basic and simple, but was unknown, until now.

But, then again, my mind could be changed. I have heard some good arguments about how lions are the ultimate reason for deer declines. ;-)


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ltree, I see a Nebo unit with LESS lions and elk in 20 years,,

I will omit, a hand full more deer, but nothing like it was..

SO Ltree, what side of this debate you on, Kill all the elk, or not?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I am not for killing all the elk, or lions for that matter. Western elk recovery is a very bright spot in wildlife conservation. My great grand father, and grand father grew up in a West, where elk were very rare. My grandfather put in for an elk tag for decades, for what is now an any bull unit.


Elk are doing very well, we are seeing elk in places that historically never had them. And there are many areas that have way more elk than the habitat can carry. They(the elk) do not start to decline, until well after the habitat has been reduced, and then you are not bringing the numbers back for long periods of time. It is in their best interest to bring them in line with the carrying capacity of the habitat, before they do irreparable damage. 


Reducing elk numbers in many places, is what is best for elk. I am actually not of the belief, that elk compete directly with deer. I believe that many of the circumstances that contribute to high elk numbers, do contribute to low deer numbers though. But this is a matter of indirect advantage. I believe seasonal and feeding differences should allow for deer and elk to use much of the same range, with minimal problems. That is, if elk numbers are held to carrying capacity. If competition is a concern, in many places, moose and goats have absolutely been a drag on mule deer. So, along the same lines, we need to seriously reduce some goat numbers in several places.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I am actually not of the belief, that elk compete directly with deer.


And then in the next breath...



> I believe seasonal and feeding differences should allow for deer and elk to use much of the same range, with minimal problems. That is, if elk numbers are held to carrying capacity.


So you DO or DON'T think too many elk compete with deer?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

The sky is falling!! Goofy are you related to 1 eye? You two spew the same crap. You just can't fix stupid. Right goof?


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

goofy, 

Some of us would be happy to see the elk herds increase, but the odds are against that mentality. The cattlemen are united on decreasing the numbers. Hunters are divided. 

Tex: I must say I know a number of places where deer have decreased without significant encroachment from elk. I'm not ready to believe the elk are the reason for fewer deer.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Goofy.. Made it back . glad to see that. Could you shoot me a PM have a few questions.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> The sky is falling!! Goofy are you related to 1 eye? You two spew the same crap. You just can't fix stupid. Right goof?


Fix STUPID?

UR on the wrong side of this debate:!:


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> And then in the next breath...
> 
> So you DO or DON'T think too many elk compete with deer?


Yes and no, no and yes :smile:

Too many elk are a resource strain, and are bad for deer and for elk. But I would say mostly for elk. I hunt an area that historically has had few to no elk on it. But the deer numbers rise and fall the same as surrounding areas, that in some cases have tons of elk.

It is not a case of direct competition, but rather one of ecological influence, that can have some defined local impacts. Similar to the way beavers affect their ecosystem. Many of the things that have benefited elk, just do not benefit deer, and may even work against them.

So at a localized level, yes, an over population of elk, can be bad for deer, but that applies to more than deer, including the elk themselves. In the grand scheme, reducing elk, is not going to increase deer. But reducing elk, is the right thing to do for the whole system.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

you want deer...stop killing 1.5 year old bucks...Antler Restrictions! You gotta love it baby!!! (in a Hot Rod Huntley voice)
thinning elk herds will help mildly, but not even a top 10 factor in terms of mule deer recovery...


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Fix STUPID?
> 
> UR on the wrong side of this debate:!:


Nope. You are chicken little. I'll await your nasty PM.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

stablebuck said:


> you want deer...stop killing 1.5 year old bucks...Antler Restrictions! You gotta love it baby!!! (in a Hot Rod Huntley voice)
> thinning elk herds will help mildly, but not even a top 10 factor in terms of mule deer recovery...


Antler restrictions will not increase deer numbers. There are units that have 35/100 buck to doe ratios, with lots of mature deer, that are not growing. And their trend line looks no different than the rest of West.

If antler restrictions worked, then LE areas should have exponential growth in over all deer numbers, in comparison to everywhere else, they do not.

10/100 buck to doe ratios can sustain herds, and the DNA of a 1.5 year deer does not get better with age. The only difference in letting that 1.5 year deer grow, is that he could prove himself to be a dominate buck. If he has not learned to be elusive by 1.5 years old, it is probably not a loss to shoot him.

They don't get big and smart, by our grace.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm okay with the tags. Most of those units are over objective for elk. REMEMBER TOTAL ELK POPULATION OBJECTIVE IS MANDATED BY STATE AND NOT THE DWR! If you have problems with how the elk are being managed don't whine on an Internet forum, talk to your local legislator if you want. I've been on one area of the Wasatch a lot the last 3 years and the elk are like bunny rabbits in a boom cycle. They need to be thinned. Anyone want a trophy spike as well?


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but weren't there discussions here sparked by the same people during the hunt last year about the entire Wasatch herd being encircled and massacred by the hunters? I expected zero tags given out after what I read during the hunt last year. Good thing the elk apocalypse was more perception than reality. Numbers say the herds are alive and more than well, and given that, I support the increases. If the increase in antlerless tags is successful at bringing the herds within their stated objectives, I will also support tag cuts in the future. Isn't that how the system is supposed to work?
-Ov-


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

It seems like most of the large elk numbers are on the Wasatch West side anyways. Though there are elk in the Avintaquin unit they are only there during the summer then move over before the rifle hunt. Currant Creek does have a fair number of elk as well. But the argument for general archery guys to buy one of these permits is moot. They can already kill a cow with their permit and are gonna have a hard enough time filling that first one. Unless they really like giving away free money, I can't see too many of those guys buying one of these permits. It's the spike rifle guys you gotta worry about.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Glad to see Goofy's back...Whining away as usual


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well now 67, call it "whining" if you like ..

I'd call it, 'pointing out mistakes being made' ....

Just as I did 3-5 years ago on the Nebo unit, It was still a pretty good
unit when I saw problems coming there,,,,Started "whining"..
Several on this forum thought I was up in the night. Didn't believe a word of it:-o...
NOW LOOK WHATS HAPPENING THERE!!!!!!!,, Nebo elk continuing to slide.

Same thing happening on the Wasatch now, will there still be elk? YES!

Will the quality of elk hunting continue to decline on the Wasatch unit? YES!
These unlimited cow control tags, PLUS the November LE mature bull tags??
2013 will be the biggest "quality' drop off with elk on the Wasatch yet. 
That's what I call, " heading south ;-)".....


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I'll call it whining too. Maybe crybabyitis. I'll await your nasty PM.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well now Mcfly,

Maybe I should post ur last PM up for everyone yo see

U wanna talk NASTY:!:


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Well now Mcfly,
> 
> Maybe I should post ur last PM up for everyone yo see
> 
> U wanna talk NASTY:!:


Go for it. I have all of yours. Lets post em up. I know I'm not the only one. Your move tough guy.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Nope Mcfly, not stuppin to your leavel ...

How bout you just quit post'in smart remarks on my threads:!:

And I promise, Ill never send U another PM in ur life .....


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Goofy act like you have a set of huevos. The Nebo Unit is being managed to objective. The Wasatch Unit is also being managed to objective. The Nebo unit did have more bulls, but anyone with half a brain knows that when you give out more tags then the number of quality bulls go down. There are still nice bulls on the Wasatch and on the Nebo, but both units aren't the Pahvant, Beaver, Boulders, San Juan etc.

Goofy should we or should we not be managing elk to their objectives? You want to see more deer then kill more elk. I think you don't want more tags issued because it's getting harder for old goofy elk to find a quality bull for his clients. He has been spoiled for so many years that now he hates it because he has to work harder to find a good bull.

Goofy, maybe you need to start guiding on high fenced elk farms because that is your style of hunting.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Wait a minute, Goof's a guide? Well, that explains a LOT! I should have known he was motivated by $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :-? Huh, go figure... We'll call it the "Doyal Moss Syndrome".


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

-O,-

Yup, what took u soo long to figure that one out....


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Not about the $$$$$$ this year....

Got my own LE elk permit and deer tags in my pocket for this fall....

Beside that, Baby sitt'in clients gett'in old..

Time for me to go have fun..8)..


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

gpskid said:


> -O,-
> 
> Yup, what took u soo long to figure that one out....


I'm either as glazed-over-dumb as they come or he has been, shall we say, a little less than transparent with his motives.... But, it all makes sense now. As long as he can go out and walk up on a 400 bull in a meadow and shoot it when he has a tag, and be able to walk his clients up on a 400 bull with little or no effort and without spending too many days doing it it's all beer and skittles. But when he actually has to _HUNT _for an elk in an area that's being managed the way it should be......... Goofy, it's not the lack of animals you're scared about, it's the effort you and you fat clients will have to put forth in hunting them that has you all worked up. How did you put it, "babysitting clients" I believe? Man, I get it dude! No wonder your scared! BTW, I talked to a lion guide the other day. He said this was one of his best years ever. All he had to do was work a little harder to get into areas most the other guides wouldn't go into and he found plenty of lions to chase. Filled all his tags and turned down LOTS of young cats. Lions, turkeys, elk, man, we're either all full of crap, or you need glasses.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> well now tex , i think ur "petty zoo" is in deep do do ....
> 
> As if 4,400 antler-less cow permits on the wasatch wasn't enough?
> 
> ...


the place will be raped!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I'm either as glazed-over-dumb as they come or he has been, shall we say, a little less than transparent with his motives.... But, it all makes sense now. As long as he can go out and walk up on a 400 bull in a meadow and shoot it when he has a tag, and be able to walk his clients up on a 400 bull with little or no effort and without spending too many days doing it it's all beer and skittles. But when he actually has to _HUNT _for an elk in an area that's being managed the way it should be......... Goofy, it's not the lack of animals you're scared about, it's the effort you and you fat clients will have to put forth in hunting them that has you all worked up. How did you put it, "babysitting clients" I believe? Man, I get it dude! No wonder your scared! BTW, I talked to a lion guide the other day. He said this was one of his best years ever. All he had to do was work a little harder to get into areas most the other guides wouldn't go into and he found plenty of lions to chase. Filled all his tags and turned down LOTS of young cats. Lions, turkeys, elk, man, we're either all full of crap, or you need glasses.


Ohh how I love your "Big Talk" about all this managed the way it should be... A clue for ya, if it was managed the way you keep saying it should you would have never got the elk you did! Your HUNT you talk about relies on having an animal walk under the tree you have sat in for days! It's not like it was any bit of hard work for ya. Maybe a mile hike, and it was not up the face of the East Madahorn! And ya your right Elk and Deer don't mix well. I guess if the answer for Deer is to kill every Elk out (as it sounds like they will do) the so be it. But really what sucks for me, this is where I hunt, have done for since I was 14! And I have come to relize I don't like to just go hunt, I like to kill, or at least have a good opertunity to do so. Ohh and another thing. I hope with all your big talk on this you get you one of them tags this year to take one of these animals as I know how much you love to hunt with ALL OF UTAH!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

TAK said:


> Ohh how I love your "Big Talk" about all this managed the way it should be... A clue for ya, if it was managed the way you keep saying it should you would have never got the elk you did! Your HUNT you talk about relies on having an animal walk under the tree you have sat in for days! It's not like it was any bit of hard work for ya. Maybe a mile hike, and it was not up the face of the East Madahorn! And ya your right Elk and Deer don't mix well. I guess if the answer for Deer is to kill every Elk out (as it sounds like they will do) the so be it. But really what sucks for me, this is where I hunt, have done for since I was 14! And I have come to relize I don't like to just go hunt, I like to kill, or at least have a good opertunity to do so. Ohh and another thing. I hope with all your big talk on this you get you one of them tags this year to take one of these animals as I know how much you love to hunt with ALL OF UTAH!


I'm not worried in the least Tom. I will wait my five years, and then wait another ten before I draw another tag, and then I'll go up there and kill another bull. (If I'm not dead yet) Hide and watch. I know you don't like to hunt hard. If you cant get to it on a wheeler you aint even goin to try most the time. That's what's really got you running scared, the notion that this might actually turn into a HUNT instead of a shoot! Oh MY GOD!!!! Goofy is upset for much that same reason, only his motives are driven by an easy hunt with a fat client so he can make more money. Yes, I know I hunted my balls off to kill the scrawny little 322 inch bull I ended up with, but the reason it was so hard on me had NOTHING to do with there being less elk up there! You'll continue to hunt up there the same way you always have, parked in a good spot with your rifle over the handle bars of your wheeler. And you'll continue to kill elk just like you always have. Don't sweat it dude! It's gonna be OK!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Your SO freak'in wrong TEX it's PATHETIC!!!!!!

The MAIN reason I hate seeing the Wasatch elk herd destroyed IS
my kidds wont get to see what a healthy, striving, elk herd looks
and sounds like in the fall, in the Waters ( mainly, hunted, guided there for 15 years)

They got a little taste of it when my wife had the tag in 2010.....

But with things going the way they are, It's TOAST!!!

The guys on MM called it spot on,,,,,A political nightmare!
Having to include elk on private ground/reservasions on Herd counts!
COMPLETELY ruining the public areas...............END of story:!:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> The MAIN reason I hate seeing the Wasatch elk herd destroyed IS
> my kidds wont get to see what a healthy, striving, elk herd looks
> and sounds like


What good does that do em if they never get to hunt it?



> They got a little taste of it when my wife had the tag in 2010.....


They got to have a "taste" of it when your wife had the tag? Now _*THAT'S *_Pathetic!!!

:OX/:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

So TEX, what's so "pathetic" About getting my 7 yr old (at that time)
in the middle of some buggle action, And getting a taste of it?????????????


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

That's not the pathetic part Goofy. In fact, thats pretty darn cool. What's pathetic is that under your management plan he'll likely only get to hunt that unit once or twice in his lifetime if he starts putting in now. (May be three, he's young) Give more tags out, utilize the resource, and manage the herd to the capacity of the land and he'd have far more chances to hunt. Limiting the tags, to grow huge bulls and have elk running all over the place in every canyon only serves those who stand to make money selling and hunting big bulls. The resource gets under-utilized, and less people have the opportunity to hunt. 

You know, Pro used to think the same way you do. Years ago when he and I first met on this very forum we had it out for a couple years. I had this same heated debate with him over herd numbers, opportunity, guiding, Mossback, and SFW. He's since seen the light and changed his tune. One day you will too... I hope you don't think I dislike you. I love you to death dude! You and me are kindred spirits. You're just a little misguided right now.;-)


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Misguided? NOT....
35 years ago , when our family hunted deer above Wallsberg, and into
the 1980's continuing to hunt around Strawberry, THERES WAS LIKE 10 ELK:!:
VERY FEW, as the herd built thru the 80's, General elk hunting was the norm...
A rag horn, or small 5 was a giant bull!...Were only one step away from returning
To were we were 25 years ago on the Wasatch.......It SUCKS:!:

As it is now, My kids COULD HUNT THE WASATCH EVERY FREAK'in year for elk!
Spikes and cows, AND KILL TWO! ,,, EVERY YEAR!

Big bulls are a HIGHLY sought after resource, AND ARE a limited resource:!:
And have to be managed as such,,,,,,,OR THERE WONT BE ANY YOU BONEHEAD...

At least, the way it was 5 years ago, a guy could at least go up and enjoy
watching the rutt,,,,,AND HUNT BIG BULLS THERE 4 or 5 TIMES IN HIS LIFE:!:

The road were headed down now on the Wasatch, is DESTROYING that opportunity.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I'm not worried in the least Tom. I will wait my five years, and then wait another ten before I draw another tag, and then I'll go up there and kill another bull. (If I'm not dead yet) Hide and watch. I know you don't like to hunt hard. If you cant get to it on a wheeler you aint even goin to try most the time. That's what's really got you running scared, the notion that this might actually turn into a HUNT instead of a shoot! Oh MY GOD!!!! Goofy is upset for much that same reason, only his motives are driven by an easy hunt with a fat client so he can make more money. Yes, I know I hunted my balls off to kill the scrawny little 322 inch bull I ended up with, but the reason it was so hard on me had NOTHING to do with there being less elk up there! You'll continue to hunt up there the same way you always have, parked in a good spot with your rifle over the handle bars of your wheeler. And you'll continue to kill elk just like you always have. Don't sweat it dude! It's gonna be OK!


So your sitting in a tree all day is "Harder hunting" than my riding around on a 4 wheeler? Laying the rifle over the handlebars? Really! No Darin the problem I have is the 6 gazzilion tags for an area! That does not do a bit of good for the animals and for sure not for someone like me that likes a little solitude while hunting. I can only emagine how you love hunting with all them people... Really read this part Darin for every permit there is a person with it!!!!!!. But I am sure your an expert on the area, I mean how could you not you have been there 3 times now? And really Darin truth be know with all the added people with tags end up going in them "Harder Hunting" areas you tell us all about and push them right to me!

I do love this new Darin though, kinda an Elite Darin thingy going on. Harder hunter and all....


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

We can shoot the elk now, or we can let them eat themselves out of house and home. In the first scenario, we still end up with large herds of elk, and a lot of hunting opportunity. That opportunity is either just that, opportunity, or it is viewed as an over crowding issue. either way, the additional opportunity, or overcrowding, is short term. The second choice, will cause elk numbers to eventually decline, probably in a crash, and then a lot of peoples kids are not going to see what a healthy elk herd looks like. 

Here we have the same old fatal wildlife argument in Utah. Peoples feelings on the matter, verses the reality of the matter. 

I was reminded the other day about the reality of cutting deer tags. Harvest follows deer trends, not hunter number trends. But that did not stop us from cutting deer tags, because of the way people felt about the issue. 

Elk numbers are going to go down, that is the reality of the situation. Either we help it along in more controlled fashion that leaves us with elk, or we let the boom bust cycle take them out for us. 

All of the peripheral arguments, are just examples of why Utah "wildlife management" is so ****ed up in most areas. This is one place, we have it right.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> So your sitting in a tree all day is "Harder hunting" than my riding around on a 4 wheeler?


Absolutly! I'd like to see you do it! A mile or more hike in and out EVERY time. Then sit there from 4:30 am till 8:15 pm EVERY day ALL day for a week straight. You don't think that's hard? Try it some time! It may not be the biggest physical challenge but putting that kind of time in a tree will test your resolve to kill something. Anyone who thinks treestand hunting is easy aint doin it right. Sure, I'd rather bugle one in, but until they give the archery hunters the rut like they do in every other state, and put the rifle hunters at the end of October where they belong, it aint likely to happen... You wanna talk F'ed up elk hunting, putting the LE big bull rifle hunt smack in the middle of the rut is as retarded as it gets. Why aren't you whining about that Goofy? Oh, that's right, you LIKE hunting elk in the rut with a rifle... Its a sure 100% kill scenario! Tough duty!



> I do love this new Darin though, kinda an Elite Darin thingy going on. Harder hunter and all....


I do too! Having a new lease on life has taught me to never take ANYTHING for granted. Especially your health!


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Were only one step away from returning
> To were we were 25 years ago on the Wasatch.......It SUCKS:!:
> 
> As it is now, My kids COULD HUNT THE WASATCH EVERY FREAK'in year for elk!
> ...


I hope the hyperbole was intended goofy. One step away from returning to the 80's? C'mon.

You can still go watch the rut and hunt the unit every 10 years or so with archery tackle...nothing has changed in that regard. Are there fewer bulls over 5 years old? Yes, thank goodness! Letting them die of old age isn't a great management tool. It is nice to see the herds actually being managed to some sort of objective.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

One step away meaning, This year UNLIMITED cow control tags,

Next thing (step) these oppertunity nuts will want is change it to general bull!

That will put us right back to how it was managed in the 80's ...

Get it?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> One step away meaning, This year UNLIMITED cow control tags,
> 
> *Next thing (step) these oppertunity nuts will want is change it to general bull!*
> 
> ...


I never said that. Just keep giving tags that make sense for the better of the herd as a whole, take the rifle/muzzy hunts OUT of the rut, and encourage more deer production. That's all I ask. What's wrong with that? HINT: killing more cows and spikes to help manage the herd isn't going to make all those 5 year old bulls go anywhere...


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## clean pass through (Nov 26, 2007)

I agree the DWR needs to get the elk back down into objective on the Wasatch, however I for-see what happened on Fish Lake, happening on this unit as well. The only unit with a bunch of public land is the Wasatch, so the distribution will not be where it needs to be for all the units with objective problems listed. Just like the year they did the same thing on Fish Lake. But with that being said just issuing cow tags are not doing the job so something needs to be done. 

IMO the DWR should look at the early season cow hunts in these units and see what the harvest percentage is and adjust the tags accordingly. Then limit the total number for each unit and sell them first come first serve basis as to not kill way to many. 

A state biologist once told me the only way we can kill elk in Utah is lead poisoning. So that is what needs to be done to get the herd back into parameters. Elk will recover quickly, if there are too many harvested however. Plus maybe the deer herd might just benefit as well.


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## clean pass through (Nov 26, 2007)

Sorry, just read my post again, I cant believe I KINDA LOOSLY agree with Goofy-O,-. But IMO it is just for the DWR to be a little more cautious because what happened on Fish Lake.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

What's a petty zoo?

In all seriousness, I haven't been chasing big game for very long, but have spent some time on the Wasatch in the last couple years and have been blown away at the amount of elk that I have seen up there with my extremely limited scouting expertise. 

I am sure there are areas of the Wasatch that could use a little TLC, but there are others that the elk herds are too large and call for tag increases. There has been no talk of the Wasatch being made into a general hunt, and when a weak, slippery slope argument like that is stated it just causes people not to take the rest of what is said seriously, and perpetuates the notion that no matter how good or bad things are, some of us are just automatically assuming worst case scenario.

The reality is this, they offered a ton of cow tags last year to get the herds under control, and the herd is still over objective. When the herd is at or near objective the tags will be cut, and I would support that wholeheartedly. These tags are simply not going to kill all the elk on the wasatch and are in accordance with the current objectives and management plan.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

C'mon Darin! You haven't seen 430AM is 30 years, and if you did you sure as hell didn't see 8PM! I do think tree stand hunting is easy! Now navigating a wheeler, in the mud, now that is can be some physical challenge! And then run the risk of a break down or a flat... The chance of having to walk out? OMG!
Darin you really need to whip your chin off! Your force feeding has left you a little bit glazed! It was said above, another fish lake in the making again. 


TEX-O-BOB said:


> Absolutely! I'd like to see you do it! A mile or more hike in and out EVERY time. Then sit there from 4:30 am till 8:15 pm EVERY day ALL day for a week straight. You don't think that's hard? Try it some time! It may not be the biggest physical challenge but putting that kind of time in a tree will test your resolve to kill something. Anyone who thinks treestand hunting is easy aint doin it right. Sure, I'd rather bugle one in, but until they give the archery hunters the rut like they do in every other state, and put the rifle hunters at the end of October where they belong, it aint likely to happen... You wanna talk F'ed up elk hunting, putting the LE big bull rifle hunt smack in the middle of the rut is as retarded as it gets. Why aren't you whining about that Goofy? Oh, that's right, you LIKE hunting elk in the rut with a rifle... Its a sure 100% kill scenario! Tough duty!
> 
> I do too! Having a new lease on life has taught me to never take ANYTHING for granted. Especially your health!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

*(u)*-_O- Oh my Hell you crack me up!

I saw 4:30 am THIS morning! The wife and I are getting up early so we can work out together. When was the last time you worked out, at 4:30 in the morning? Or ever for that matter?:EAT:


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> *(u)*-_O- Oh my Hell you crack me up!
> 
> I saw 4:30 am THIS morning! The wife and I are getting up early so we can work out together. When was the last time you worked out, at 4:30 in the morning? Or ever for that matter?:EAT:


Monday thru Sat... and some Sundays... My right arm is almost back to its youthful form! Two teams of 12 batting practices.... No really it is a work out! SUre its not like that tread mill of yours... Did I hear your up to 1.5 miles at 3mph now!

Might I say I have now perfected the knuckle ball and my slider is lights out!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Coaching IS hard work. I don't care who you are...


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## c3hammer (Nov 1, 2009)

This thread is funny. Many of us have been spraying for years that the proverbial wisdom of limited bull hunting was going to come home to roost in your own back yard Goofy.

Here you are. More bulls than cows and a near complete inability to take enough of them out of the herd to meet carrying capacity. It will take nearly unlimited cow permits to keep the herd to objective.

You can't have it both ways. Either kill bulls or kill cows. The cows are getting to be harder to find than bulls and it just can't be sustained any longer. The bowhunting communtity has been suggesting a way out for as long as the debate has existed, but the "rilfe hunt booners" or be damned crowd has nearly destroyed what could be one of the countries leading resources.

Instead, due to folks like yourself it's becoming nearly useless to anyone.

Sad state of affairs to say the least. I just hope someday those bent on sucking money out of "our" resource get the shaft and proper management reigns for once over this debate.

Cheers,
Pete


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

c3hammer said:


> This thread is funny. Many of us have been spraying for years that the proverbial wisdom of limited bull hunting was going to come home to roost in your own back yard Goofy.
> 
> Here you are. More bulls than cows and a near complete inability to take enough of them out of the herd to meet carrying capacity. It will take nearly unlimited cow permits to keep the herd to objective.
> 
> ...


Amen Brutha! SAY HALLELUJAH!!!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The REAL problem with these Wasatch hunts is MAINLY occurring
because of skewed herd counts, ....

Having to include large numbers of elk living on Private and Indian Res....

NOT BULL TO COW ratios U two "hallelujah" brother's.....:-o

Until the REALL problem is addressed, Public land will continue to
take the heat on those two Wasatch sub-units, and suffer the consequences


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Yeah, but the fact that the Indians slaughter more elk every year than the DWR ever thought of doesn't matter though, right?

Elk on Private lands get killed too. MOST of the Wasatch unit is public anyway so your point is moot.


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

The REAL problem is that alot of hunters have lost sight of what hunting is all about. Until people realize that they ARE NOT entitled to a record book animal just because they had to wait 10+ years to draw, this problem will only get worse. HUNTING IS NOT ALL ABOUT INCHES!!!! Just enjoy being out in the wild chasing those animals and testing your skills. Be thankful of what you are able to harvest instead of trying to change management plans to enable you to get your name in the record books. 
remember back in the good old days of hunting when alot of our grandfathers just left the heads and antlers in the field because they were worthless to them?? You can't eat them no matter how long you cook them. All they are is a pretty decoration.

And yes, I too hunt the Wasatch for spikes and cows and I have no problems with the DWR issuing unlimited tags. I would rather see hunters take these animals home then to come up after a dry year or bad winter and find dea ones all over because there wasn't enough food to feed them all.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Yeah, but the fact that the Indians slaughter more elk every year than the DWR ever thought of doesn't matter though, right?
> 
> Elk on Private lands get killed too. MOST of the Wasatch unit is public anyway so your point is moot.


In fact, this whole thread is moot! The DWR biologists made the recommendations after carefull study, and the Wildlife Board approved the recommendations. The permit numbers are set a'ready. Even if a major mistake was made, which I doubt, we'll not kill every elk on these sub-units and the elk from surrounding units will just fill in the gaps and the elk will recover rather quickly which is what made this a petty/petting zoo in the first place.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Glad to see you guys solving the world's problems one post at a time. Internet heros! Ok, carry on.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

What's yer plan, just let SFW fix everything?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

bwhntr said:


> Glad to see you guys solving the world's problems one post at a time. Internet heros! Ok, carry on.


I wish that were true! It usually takes 3 or 4 posts! :grin:

(And some of us don't tease the monkeys, 'cause we are the monkeys.)


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Lol... Silly 

Awww Tex, your are simple aren't you.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

bwhntr said:


> Glad to see you guys solving the world's problems one post at a time. Internet heros! Ok, carry on.


I can hear the call from you this fall when you and the wife are up there hunting... Ohh my Gosh Tom there is something like 10,000 people here! OMG I am going back to hunting Chalk Creek!

As it has been said before... Water is going to be key!!! The problem with that is 9,500 other hunters are going to hunt that same water hole!!! It might not be the problem of finding the game, but finding the game that is not got three arrows in it!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> In fact, this whole thread is moot! The DWR biologists made the recommendations after carefull study, and the Wildlife Board approved the recommendations. The permit numbers are set a'ready. Even if a major mistake was made, which I doubt, we'll not kill every elk on these sub-units and the elk from surrounding units will just fill in the gaps and the elk will recover rather quickly which is what made this a petty/petting zoo in the first place.


Yes it is Moot in respects that this thread or this forum is not going to change a thing. But does give us all a place to cry some!

I do think that there has been a major mistake made! Your not going to see it this year, or next but it will creep up on us all. I am not talking about inches of antlers, I know that the "Idea" for the Wasatch is not to grow the 400 bulls such as some of the other units. I am saying that the numbers of animals taken off the entire unit. With that said I also have noticed an increase in the numbers of domestic game! More cows and sheep in the areas that I visit. Would you dare intertain that has something to do with the numbers of permits? I dare say that in the last 5 years the numbers of Elk on the East side of the unit is down!


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## ultramagfan2000 (Nov 27, 2009)

TAK you hit the nail on the head. I know you and I hunt the same area and I'm concerned about the same things.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

ultramagfan2000 said:


> TAK you hit the nail on the head. I know you and I hunt the same area and I'm concerned about the same things.


Are you the one I talked to last year up there that has the cabin on reservation ridge?


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

I forgot to add also. Even if a mistake is made, it will never be the tag numbers. It will be blamed on lions, bears, water, over grazing... etc.


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## ultramagfan2000 (Nov 27, 2009)

No sir I don't have a cabin up there. I've just commented on a few of your posts. But by golly I'd sure like to bump into you up there sometime.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

ultramagfan2000 said:


> No sir I don't have a cabin up there. I've just commented on a few of your posts. But by golly I'd sure like to bump into you up there sometime.


Bump? Lol entirely possible, he's hard to miss.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I dont see why you guys are bitching. You act like every person that get a tag is going to kill there cow and bull up there. I bet you half of them dont fill there tag at all. no body want to pack a cow out a mile or two. I know I will be tossing my name in tomorrow for a cow tag. there will be four of us.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Instead of bitching about to many tag given out.Maybe we should all bitch bout the cows and sheep up there eating all of the grass all summer long. If they we not in there. The deer,elk and moose would have plenty of food to eat. Now I would rather see fighting about that in stead.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

That's never gonna happen Dustin. the cattlemen association and the DWR have been in bed together for 50 years.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> That's never gonna happen Dustin. the cattlemen association and the DWR have been in bed together for 50 years.[/QUOTE
> 
> I know. but we can dream about it right. But dont you think that would be a better fight then what this is all about.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

By the numbers:

The Avintaquin unit portion, CURRANT elk herd ojective 1,600 ...
CURRANT herd estamate, 1,750,,,,,,ONLY 150 over objective:!:
958 antlerless draw permits, PLUS OTC, unlimited cow control permits.
Cow hunting starts 8/17/2013 and runs NON STOP thru 12/31/13.....


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> By the numbers:
> 
> The Avintaquin unit portion, CURRANT elk herd ojective 1,600 ...
> CURRANT herd estamate, 1,750,,,,,,ONLY 150 over objective:!:
> ...


If there's that few elk, in that big an area, then less people will likely hunt there because of the dificulty. Less people = less elk killed. It will all balance out in the end. Elk are extremely transient animals, and they tend to go where there's less shooting once the shooting starts. Plus, mother nature has a way of working things out, even when we try our best to screw it up.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

More, By the numbers:

Wasatch unit, Cental region elk herd sub-unit.
Objctive 2,600
currant herd estamate 3,400
1.550 antlerless draw permits, Plus unlimited archery hunters choice.
Cow hunting, NON-STOP from 8/17/13 thru 1/31/ 2014!!!!!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> Instead of bitching about to many tag given out.Maybe we should all bitch bout the cows and sheep up there eating all of the grass all summer long. If they we not in there. The deer,elk and moose would have plenty of food to eat. Now I would rather see fighting about that in stead.


But I like to B-Bitchin all the time! I matter of fact do it all to well!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> I dont see why you guys are bitching. You act like every person that get a tag is going to kill there cow and bull up there. I bet you half of them dont fill there tag at all. no body want to pack a cow out a mile or two. I know I will be tossing my name in tomorrow for a cow tag. there will be four of us.


No not every person is going to tag out... But even half them tags now brings the total numbers below objective! I did not know this when I first started bitchin until Goofy posted the numbers. I was simply going by what I seen with my own peepers!

And you would be surprized to see how far a person would pack a antles animal!

I know I will NOT be tossing my name in for there!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> If there's that few elk, in that big an area, then less people will likely hunt there because of the dificulty. Less people = less elk killed. It will all balance out in the end. Elk are extremely transient animals, and they tend to go where there's less shooting once the shooting starts. Plus, mother nature has a way of working things out, even when we try our best to screw it up.


Darin you sniffing the glue again? Man I just can't get a read on you. First you preach the "Objective" so Goofy posts the objectives, shows you that the numbers "Science" is not in line for keeping a healthy population of elk in the area. Yet you say then less people will hunt it? NO!!! you give tags out and people gobble them up!

I have never looked at the numbers so to say, I go completly on if I can go and spend any amount of time in an area and see what I am looking for. That could be by riding a 4 wheeler, a horse, hiking(no laughing please) or a tree camera. I promise you there is lots less elk! I do support your theory of Elk and Deer don't mix. And now with less Elk I am seeing more Deer!

And truth be known... The Tags will not be sold out. People can't afford to buy the ammo to shoot one! That is my Theory!

And No you won't see me with a tag!


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