# Utah's Crossbow Regulations



## Moostickles

I was talking with a friend who recently took an elk in Wyoming with a crossbow. It brought up the discussion, why in Utah are crossbows restricted to only hunters with disabilities? Every state surrounding Utah, except for Arizona, allows hunters to use crossbows with certain restrictions. Here is what I could find:

*Colorado* - Crossbows legal for all hunters during gun seasons and for handicapped hunters during archery season.
*Idaho* - During an any-weapon hunting season you can hunt with a crossbow without any other permit besides your hunting license and proper tag. Crossbows also legal for handicapped persons by permit-to hunt with a crossbow during an archery season, you must also have a valid archery permit as well as a hunting license and a proper tag. 
*Nevada* - Crossbows are are legal for all during firearms season.
*New Mexico* - Crossbows are legal sporting arms for big game. Hunters that qualify with a permanent mobility limitation may use crossbows to hunt waterfowl and upland game. Sights on crossbows shall not project light nor magnify.
*Wyoming* - Crossbows are legal during archery seasons, and must have a 90 pound minimum draw weight, shoot a 16 inch bolt and can not be ****ed with a leverage-gaining device.

At first I was against it, but the more I think about it, the more I think I would like to try it. Even if it was only allowed during an any-weapon hunt.

What are you thoughts?


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## JuddCT

I think a good trial run would be to allow them during the any-weapon hunt. Do this for a few years to see what success rate/etc it would have. However, I'd like to see this as a tool to allow MORE opportunity in general or a transition into archery for all the rifle hunters.


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## Treehugnhuntr

I don't see much harm in a trial run, such as bears and cougar seasons. With restrictions to eliminate certain bows, crossbows are less effective than most compound bows.


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## Bo0YaA

How about youth? they would have a lesser chance of wounding animals then with a #40 bow. Some 12 yr olds may not even be able to pull a #40 bow.


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## bwhntr23

I wouldn't mind seeing them legal for the Archery Elk hunt because the tags are unlimited so you wouldn't be "taking" any tags away from anyone and the individual hunter would then be able to choose if he wants to use a compound or a crossbow.


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## JuddCT

Tree,

Is this something the UWC (or anyone for that matter) has brought up with the RAC/WB yet? If so what has been there response?


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## Moostickles

I was wondering the same thing.


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## wileywapati

I'm 100% for crossbows.... As long as they are kept separate from the archery hunts.


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## TEX-O-BOB

Crossguns should be legal for anyone with a general season or muzzy tag. I have mixed feelings about them being legal during the archery hunt. They really aren't that much more effective than todays modern compounds, but the big advantage is that you don't have to hold it back. They are quite accurate, they can be aimed very easily with a dead rest, but you still need to be dead nuts with yardage estimation and you still need to put the bolt in the boiler room to insure a quick clean kill. I say make them legal.


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## wileywapati

Does this resemble archery equipment???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQthc4j ... re=related

Like I said it ain't a bow. Get your own season and permit allocations and I'm all for it.


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## duck jerky

Looks like it shoots a arrow so why not use it during the bow hunt ?


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## DallanC

wileywapati said:


> Does this resemble archery equipment???
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQthc4j ... re=related
> 
> Like I said it ain't a bow. Get your own season and permit allocations and I'm all for it.


Yes you are right, no-one is making long shots like that with bows... oh wait, yes they are: 92 yard bow shot:






-DallanC


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## JuddCT

wileywapati said:


> Does this resemble archery equipment???
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQthc4j ... re=related
> 
> Like I said it ain't a bow. Get your own season and permit allocations and I'm all for it.


Are you okay giving up some archery tags for the crossbow only season? What about part of that August/September hunt that "archers" currently have? Or are we only going to make the muzzy/rifle guys give something up?


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## wileywapati

Yep bows will shoot 90+ yards accurately, in the right hands... The difference is I could have you pick ANY 14 year old and with that PSE crossgun and crank have them dialed in at that distance in 20 minutes. You want to pick a 14 year old to send over for my bow to see what they can do in the same 20 minutes??? No modifications, they shoot my draw length and draw weight. We'll have the 14 year old with the crossgun bring the string back to full draw and hold for one hour before the shot. We'll have the 14 year old with my bow hold for 90 seconds and see who is more accurate.

Look it ain't a bow. It will never be hand drawn, especially in the presence of game and last I looked bows were missing buttstocks, forearms, safety's, and picatinny rails for scopes.

Get your own season dates and permits. It ain't a bow


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## wileywapati

JUDD why should any method of hunting give up anything?? If the crossgun proponents want this opportunity they can get to work just like rifle hunters, smokepolers and BOWhunters do every year.


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## DallanC

wileywapati said:


> Look it ain't a bow. It will never be hand drawn, especially in the presence of game and last I looked bows were missing buttstocks, forearms, safety's, and picatinny rails for scopes.


So you would be ok with a DrawLock on a Hoyt Compound Bow?










-DallanC


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## wileywapati

With a COR


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## adamsoa

Wiley,

The argument that practice requirements have anything to do with the validity of the weapon isnt all that strong unless you have some way to enforce the same requirements with all of the equipement.

Yes you could have a teen shooting a crossbow well pretty fast but they could pick up a compound and shoot fast as well. 
How many times in hunting situations are they going to have a bench to shoot from? And its not all that easy to sneek to archery range of any animal anyway. There really isnt any difference in the effective range of the weapons.
To shoot well with a crossbow takes time and practice. You might be able to take the time to set up the crossbow, tune the arrows, make sure that the timing is good and do everything else to the bow.
I'd argue that you could do the same with a hooter shooter and give the youth a tuned and sighted bow. With a slider sight they would be about the same as they would with a crossbow off hand.

Loading takes time and practice. Some of the new bows would be very dificult for youths to load. Then there is aiming, holding and shooting. 
Out of the box you could easily have a person shooting good groups with a compound much faster than you could with a crossbow. The crossbow loads much slower and still takes a lot of effort to sight in well. 
On the range and for ease of shooting there just isnt a lot of difference. I've shot both. 
with a good compound, adjustable sight, peep site. trigger release etc you have a lot of gear helping you shoot.
The crossbow has a lot of good stuff to help you shoot also.

Shooting free hand or off hand most people are much more accurate with a compound. it is easier to shoot them accurately.
If you have time to get some sort of a rest the crossbow will be the more accurate of the two in my opinion. 

Overall its sixes in performance. There are benefits and compromises in using either of the two weapons.

I'm excited to see if Utah will allow some sort of limited use for crossbows to see if all of the anti hype is true. I dont see them as the big bad wolf some do. If they hype is just that ----hype than I'd love to see them included in the hunting options for all Utahns.

Andy


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## elk22hunter

It would be the same as when someone kills a big bull elk and then you hear it came off from a high fence ranch. It's still a cool animal but the wind just got let out of your sails. "Oh, you got it with a cross bow?" there goes the wind out of the sails imediately.


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## Treehugnhuntr

wileywapati said:


> Does this resemble archery equipment???
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQthc4j ... re=related
> 
> Like I said it ain't a bow. Get your own season and permit allocations and I'm all for it.


Restrict it and others like it. Doesn't seem too hard. Why not try it on for size on archery elk? Unlimited tags, no detriment to opportunity of others. Just throwing out possibilities.

Besides, according to the dude at the Central RAC, all archers take 120 yard shots and wound 5 deer a year. :roll:


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## Brookie

Most of the bow hunters that I talk with have 100 yard pins, so it could be true, treehugnhuntr


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## Treehugnhuntr

I gotcha. I currently employ a sure-loc sight and practice out to 130 yards, but have never attempted a shot over 60 at a big game animal. There are a handful of archers that are capable of making long shots and there are even more who are not and without getting into an ethics debate, it's all about personal choice, education and the whole hunting community holding each other to a standard.

We will be the ones who cut our own throats if we don't create and keep acceptable boundaries amongst our peers, regardless of weapon. I talked to a good friend and he mentioned that a group of friends/relatives hunt the same CWMU for deer every year. The highlight was that one of them had set the "group record" for longest shot. He killed a deer at 1180 yards. Is this something we want new comers to the sport seeing as acceptable and commonplace? 

It's sad to say, but in my opinion, the ego and money associated with big antlers is the biggest contributor to people pushing the envelope and having momentary lapses of reason when it comes to putting a big rack on the wall and in a magazine. Do I think hunting for big antlers is wrong? Absolutely not, it's all about motivation and introspect, or lack thereof. I've seen it too many times to believe otherwise and on top of that, I've seen the same quest ruin hunts for people because of the pressure and/or the ideal for a trophy wasn't fulfilled. Sad.


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## adamsoa

Tree,

I appreciate your last post, it was spot on. As hunters we need to both police ourselves and also support one another. Too much time spent on bashing this or that. Its not always about who gets the biggest or shoots the farthest. Its about the experience that we enjoy and the relationships we build with those that we enjoy it with.

To all of those who are vetrans out there "Happy Vetrans Day!!!!!


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## Moostickles

wileywapati said:


> Get your own season dates and permits. It ain't a bow


Why would crossbow hunters need their own season and permits? Just allow them during the any weapon hunts.


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## richardjb

bwhntr23 said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing them legal for the Archery Elk hunt because the tags are unlimited so you wouldn't be "taking" any tags away from anyone and the individual hunter would then be able to choose if he wants to use a compound or a crossbow.


 So simple, it's stupid! Cannibles continue to eat their young. Crossbows do not take away from bow hunters. Bowhunters take away from other hunters, new and old! Time to wake up! Look at the facts! Bringing new hunters in is a good thing! REALLY!!!!!!!!!


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## adamsoa

It doesnt belong in the any weapon season. It distance and other limitations are identical to other archery equipment.


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## coyoteslayer

So let me get this straight and correct me if I'm wrong. Bowhunters keep telling rifle hunters they should just pick up a bow. Well for a lot of people this transition is easier said than done. Shooting a bow takes a lot of dedication and practice as I'm sure bowhunters are aware, but some people just don't have the time to practice after a long day at work. So why let these people hunt with a crossbow?

Now you tell people only if they hunt during the any weapon hunts because the archery hunt is off limits to a guy with a crossbow because he might take away some of his precious archery tags.

So you want rifle hunters to pick up a compound bow which would be taking your precious archery tags anyways?

Gordy says he's in favor of archery tags, but to get your own permits and own season. HMMM A crossbow is still only capable of shooting an arrow like a compound bow.

So what exactly do you want non archery hunters to do when they join your method of hunting?


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## Moostickles

adamsoa said:


> It doesnt belong in the any weapon season. It distance and other limitations are identical to other archery equipment.





coyoteslayer said:


> So let me get this straight and correct me if I'm wrong. Bowhunters keep telling rifle hunters they should just pick up a bow. Well for a lot of people this transition is easier said than done. Shooting a bow takes a lot of dedication and practice as I'm sure bowhunters are aware, but some people just don't have the time to practice after a long day at work. So why let these people hunt with a crossbow?
> 
> Now you tell people only if they hunt during the any weapon hunts because the archery hunt is off limits to a guy with a crossbow because he might take away some of his precious archery tags.
> 
> So you want rifle hunters to pick up a compound bow which would be taking your precious archery tags anyways?
> 
> Gordy says he's in favor of archery tags, but to get your own permits and own season. HMMM A crossbow is still only capable of shooting an arrow like a compound bow.
> 
> So what exactly do you want non archery hunters to do when they join your method of hunting?


Good points.


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## Cooky

The trouble with crossbows is that they are the limitless tools of sneaky bad guys in the movies. Silent death at a half a mile, fireballs, grappling hooks, and multiple arrows at a time, you name it. And I don’t know about everybody else but carrying them around at full draw just looks dangerous to me (a 300 Magnum in the chamber with the safety on doesn’t bother me a lot though).
The above is a sarcastic attempt at humor. I’ll bet its closer to the reason they are illegal for hunting than any logic. Now up on the soap box.
I suspect that if each projectile launcher had to pass some sort of litmus test prior to being accepted instead of being okay if its able to fit an existing criterion there are things we use now that wouldn’t be legal to hunt with. 
So long as we keep it between us I think these discussions are educational, healthy and entertaining. But we have to remember who the enemy is. If we divide up over opportunities to hunt we have made it easy for the anti-hunters. 
I’ll step off the box now…next.


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## wileywapati

Justin can I shoot my Center fire rifle on the muzz hunt?? How about on the bowhunt???

I'M NOT TRYING TO RESTRICT ANYONE'S OPPORTUNITY!!! If you want the opportunity to hunt with a crossbow go make it happen!!!

The bowhunt is made for hand drawn hand held BOWS. Say it with me, BOWS!!!
It's the bowhunt for a reason, IT'S A HARD WAY TO HUNT.


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## Moostickles

wileywapati said:


> The bowhunt is made for hand drawn hand held BOWS. Say it with me, BOWS!!!


Compound BOWS, recurve BOWS, longBOWS, crossBOWS

Crossbows are handheld and hand drawn (minus the one CS posted)... Sounds like they fit to me.


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## duck jerky

if It shoots a arrow it's a bow.


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## wileywapati

UHD Crossbow draw weight is not hand held. Some crossGUNS use a crank or like the Parker co2.


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## JERRY

I can't shoot a bow due to bad shoulders and elbows. If I could use a crossbow I would jump at the chance for nothing more than the increased opportunity to go hunting.

I personally don't see a problem with it. It will still be difficult to get close enough, and I'm sure you traditional bow hunters know how difficult that is.

Self imposed yardage limits should be the norm. If you can shoot well over 60 yards please don't brag about it. Unless it is competition or among friends and you are shooting at targets. If it is at big game please keep it to yourself. You are only a detriment to your sport.


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## elkfromabove

horsesma said:


> I can't shoot a bow due to bad shoulders and elbows. If I could use a crossbow I would jump at the chance for nothing more than the increased opportunity to go hunting.
> 
> I personally don't see a problem with it. It will still be difficult to get close enough, and I'm sure you traditional bow hunters know how difficult that is.
> 
> Self imposed yardage limits should be the norm. If you can shoot well over 60 yards please don't brag about it. Unless it is competition or among friends and you are shooting at targets. If it is at big game please keep it to yourself. You are only a detriment to your sport.


FWIW, You *can* use a crossbow as long as you get a doctor's note indicating that you are physically unable to manage a regular bow. You ought to look into it!


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## JERRY

elkfromabove said:


> horsesma said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't shoot a bow due to bad shoulders and elbows. If I could use a crossbow I would jump at the chance for nothing more than the increased opportunity to go hunting.
> 
> I personally don't see a problem with it. It will still be difficult to get close enough, and I'm sure you traditional bow hunters know how difficult that is.
> 
> Self imposed yardage limits should be the norm. If you can shoot well over 60 yards please don't brag about it. Unless it is competition or among friends and you are shooting at targets. If it is at big game please keep it to yourself. You are only a detriment to your sport.
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, You *can* use a crossbow as long as you get a doctor's note indicating that you are physically unable to manage a regular bow. You ought to look into it!
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I would quite qualify. I still function. Just really painful to practice or hold a bow at full draw.

If it was made legal would people who shoot a traditional bow or a compound take up a crossbow? Probably not. Some rifle hunters may make the switch. I think it would be negligible. It may take some of the pressure off of the rifle hunters. I like the idea of being able to hunt for a month or longer on the extended. Not just nine days or less.

There must be some kind of issue with crossbows. Other states do it do they not? Does anyone know what the real issue is?

I don't believe there would be any more success with a crossbow than archery equipment used now. I could be wrong. You still have a lot of hunters who are not very efficient with any weapon.

Maybe the DWR would entertain the idea of letting hunters give it a try in selected areas and or with selected wildlife?


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## BPturkeys

The whole idea of having special hunts set aside based on the use of certain types of lethal weapons is JUST STUPID!!! all this special regulation/special hunts/LE BS/bows only/no muzzy only/blah blah blah is one of the main reasons we are where we are now in terms of game management. Game management...yeah right...all we really have is hunter management! The bow hunters started all of this nonsense and are still the biggest cry babies about needing government regulation to insure their own personal hunting privileges.
I say stop the foolishness...just start the deer/elk/what ever hunt on some given day, let it run the course of time, let the hunter use what ever LETHAL weapon he wants and be done with it. Bow hunters stop your **** crying and become regular hunters.


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## swbuckmaster

With that type of foolish thinking why would anyone use a bow durring the any weapon hunt. No Im a hard core bow hunter and I would just pick up a gun. This would only increase the waiting between tags for everyone. Besides I like to have first crack at the animals I hunt and give you bpturkey my sloppy thirds. Why don't you quite being a cry baby and pick up a bow.


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## BPturkeys

swbuckmaster said:


> With that type of foolish thinking why would anyone use a bow durring the any weapon hunt. well duh...maybe because he is a "hard core" bow hunter No Im a hard core bow hunter and I would just pick up a gun. This would only increase the waiting between tags for everyone...everyone would get just one tag, everyone could just go hunting..no waiting involved Besides I like to have first crack at the animals I hunt and give you bpturkey my sloppy thirds....so you admit it's not the use of a bow..your so called weapon of choice, but the fact that you can get a special privilege hunt that attracts you to the bow hunt!...nice Why don't you quite being a cry baby and pick up a bow gee, maybe because I am not a "hard core" bow hunter.


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## JERRY

BPturkeys said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> With that type of foolish thinking why would anyone use a bow durring the any weapon hunt. well duh...maybe because he is a "hard core" bow hunter No Im a hard core bow hunter and I would just pick up a gun. This would only increase the waiting between tags for everyone...everyone would get just one tag, everyone could just go hunting..no waiting involved Besides I like to have first crack at the animals I hunt and give you bpturkey my sloppy thirds....so you admit it's not the use of a bow..your so called weapon of choice, but the fact that you can get a special privilege hunt that attracts you to the bow hunt!...nice Why don't you quite being a cry baby and pick up a bow gee, maybe because I am not a "hard core" bow hunter.
Click to expand...

This is just a discussion!

I am a rifle hunter. Always have been. But with recent decisions and the direction the future of hunting is going in Utah, I believe we need to look at ways to give people more opportunity to get out in the mountains with a tag. This may be just one way.


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## elkfromabove

BPturkeys said:


> The whole idea of having special hunts set aside based on the use of certain types of lethal weapons is JUST STUPID!!! all this special regulation/special hunts/LE BS/bows only/no muzzy only/blah blah blah is one of the main reasons we are where we are now in terms of game management. Game management...yeah right...all we really have is hunter management! The bow hunters started all of this nonsense and are still the biggest cry babies about needing government regulation to insure their own personal hunting privileges.
> I say stop the foolishness...just start the deer/elk/what ever hunt on some given day, let it run the course of time, let the hunter use what ever LETHAL weapon he wants and be done with it. Bow hunters stop your **** crying and become regular hunters.


Whoa there! Calm down and step back a ways and get a different perspective!

First of all, bows were used by hunters long before rifles showed up, so who are "regular hunters"? Rifle hunters are the "Johnny Come Latelys/New Kids On The Block", not the bowhunters!

Second, Most of the government regulations have been generated by rifle hunting due to the danger and efficiency inherent in the weapon. Bison, elk, antelope, passenger pigeons, Heath hens, etc. (And for that matter, Native Americans) weren't wiped out or nearly wiped out by bowhunters! Government regulations and enforcement of those regulations were a result of the unregulated/unethical hunting that went on when a few folks decided to earn a living by killing wildlife using the most effective tool available.

Third, If bowhunters become your version of regular hunters, that means you'll just have 16,000 more competitors for any weapon tags. And 16,000 more pumpkins on the hill during your hunt. Or maybe we'll just have to cut 16,000 more tags while we're throwing 16,000 more hunters into the rifle hunt. Are you sure you want that?

Fourth, Over the years, bowhunters have been given the so-called unfair perks (I've counted and could list 7 perks, though at least 1 of them is going away in 2012) to help make up for the obvious (and not so obvious) challenges that bowhunting presents when compared to rifle hunting (I've counted and could list 21 challenges that are not going away in 2012), and to entice more hunters into taking up the bow so that there are more opportunities to hunt animals with less impact on the herds. And still, with those so-called unfair perks, the harvest rate is about 1/2 that of rifle hunters, but apparently it's still too high for some folks and we need to cut some perks to bring it down even more!

Fifth, The current debate was not generated by bowhunters. Bowhunters are not trying to take away ANY of the perks that rifle hunters enjoy. It's the other way around. And the reasons are not biologically or logically generated, but are strictly social (emotional/perceived) and will prove to be counter-productive. All this whining you claim to hear is nothing more than bowhunters trying to stop the rifle hunters from imposing their values on the archery hunters.

I'm just an observer of life, but in my 70 years I've noticed that when a lot of emotion gets wrapped around an issue, the emotion takes over and the issue and logic get buried. It sometimes happens on this forum (though not as much as it used to) and we get into name-calling, insults, accusations, foul language and personal attacks until the issue is lost and the thread gets shut down. I've been to, listened to or read minutes of most of the RAC meetings dealing with this debate and not once have I witnessed a substantially logical reason for making the changes we're making. Quite the opposite in fact. Oh, there have been some claims regarding biology, but they don't hold water with the studies and facts presented by the DWR. And the trouble with wrapping so much emotion around a position is that once someone does that, they cannot gracefully switch and so they don't/won't no matter what.

Having said that, I suppose like my deceased older brother, we're going to have to learn the hard way. Let's hope that the damage is recoverable.

And having said that, I'm still not giving up the fight to shut down Option #2!


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## BPturkeys

You boys are completely not understanding what my point really is. You are sooo defensive about your little sport of bow hunting that you take offense at any suggestion made that might impact any little tiny tiny part of your hard fought for special privileged hunt. 
My point is this, and this only...the more we regulate hunting, the more political regulation that encumbers the hunter, the worse hunting has become. I mean geez, take a look at the latest proclamation for big game hunting...what...over 50 or so pages...is hunting any better for it? Is there more opportunity for hunting because of it? Just because I have pointed out that the bow hunters kind of started this idea of special hunts set aside for them...gee, that does't mean your bad people...you guys lighten up, it ain't me that got the hackle up on the back of my neck. OK, that said, we should simply have a big game hunting season...start it around the 1st of September, end it around the first of November..Period! Use what ever weapon you want as long as it's legal, go when ever your personal situation allows..and just go huntin! When you get your tag(s) filled, or you lose desire , ya stay home and watch the ball game. Simple, simple simple. That's all I am calling for...now, go ahead and tell me once again...why do we need special hunts, I just don't understand!


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## adamsoa

Bringing this back the use of crossbows. Some guys keep saying that you should only allow them into the any weapons hunt. Why? 
The fact is that they arent any more effective than other forms of archery equipment. Some guys will always argue about the no drawing back infornt of animals thing. I'f I'm hunting out of my blind that really doesnt matter.

But wait, this is where someone will pull out the 100 yard target shot with a crossbow.---Which is not that great an argument.
1st off those of you that make this argument should know better. It takes a LOT to tune up archery equipment to shoot anywhere near that well. Bow tuning, timing, arrow selection and timing.....etc. That guy was a pro.
But along with that you can see guys shooting deer accruately with compounds at well over 100 yards. There was a recent post of a 92 yard shot. You can pick up a FMP video and watch 122-150 yard shots on film.
Crossbows just arent any better than other bows.

They dont belong in the any weapons hunts because they dont shoot ANY farther than other bows. You still have to get in to around 40 yards or so to be ethical.


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## elkfromabove

BPturkeys said:


> You boys are completely not understanding what my point really is. You are sooo defensive about your little sport of bow hunting that you take offense at any suggestion made that might impact any little tiny tiny part of your hard fought for special privileged hunt.
> My point is this, and this only...the more we regulate hunting, the more political regulation that encumbers the hunter, the worse hunting has become. I mean geez, take a look at the latest proclamation for big game hunting...what...over 50 or so pages...is hunting any better for it? Is there more opportunity for hunting because of it? Just because I have pointed out that the bow hunters kind of started this idea of special hunts set aside for them...gee, that does't mean your bad people...you guys lighten up, it ain't me that got the hackle up on the back of my neck. OK, that said, we should simply have a big game hunting season...start it around the 1st of September, end it around the first of November..Period! Use what ever weapon you want as long as it's legal, go when ever your personal situation allows..and just go huntin! When you get your tag(s) filled, or you lose desire , ya stay home and watch the ball game. Simple, simple simple. That's all I am calling for...now, go ahead and tell me once again...why do we need special hunts, I just don't understand!


Actually, I did understand your point and, in fact, somewhat agree with you. (See my post at the end of the thread "Taking Away Statewide Archery, WELL It's Just Crap" on the Archery sub-forum.) My response to your post was because of your attempt to throw the blame of the current state of Utah hunting only on the backs of bowhunters, and because you, like others, primarily used emotions to make your point. Stick to the facts and the real issues and you have my attention, at least!

To answer your question about the need for different hunts and different regulations, it's because of the different philosophies, viewpoints, desires and abilities of hunters, the need to keep the wildlife populations viable, the need to keep the non-hunters and other government agencies happy, along with safety and public health issues, to comply with other laws, rules and regulations imposed on hunting, and to keep up with ever growing technology. I'm sure there are other reasons I missed, but you get the idea. It isn't just the DWR or Wildlife Board that makes those regulations. And Utah's wildlife doesn't just belong to Utah hunters. It would be much simpler to hunt if we cut those regulations, but that's not going to happen, and not only to the hunting community, but with every other aspect of our lives. And, FWIW, you forgot that we actually have *2* Big Game Proclamations (Application Guidebook, 52 pages & Field Regulations, 48 pages) full of regulations. And if you think that's a lot, wait 'til next year's proclamations come out.

It's a shame that some hunter groups are turning on others with the intent of imposing their values on the whole hunting community. Like I posted on another thread, it's like seeing someone in your department at work who has a different/harder/more complicated job and who makes more money than you and instead of trying to get a raise to make things more "fair" and make you better off, you try to get his/her salary reduced so that both of you feel crappy! What's fair is fair, right? BTW, try that with your family and see how that goes! :O•-:


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## wileywapati

Not one time have I ever in this thread or any other not been the champion of more opportunity. That's my philosophy, even with crossbows. All I have asked is that you leave Bowhunters out of it. Look we could go around and around for eternity about whether a crossgun is a bow or a gun. Doesn't matter. If you want permits and season dates and it expands opportunity without taking from Muzz Rifle or Bow, I'll read the proposal at the RACs for you!!!

The end of July of this year I was putting a new piece of plywood sheeting in the bottom of my duck boat. I reached in to lift the old one out and the tendon that connects my bicep to my elbow exploded. Gone, Done. Surgically the failure rate is over 60% so at my age it wasn't an option. I figured I was done bowhunting for the year. BUT it's what I love and by the opening I was drawing 63 lbs and shooting accurately. 3 weeks after blowing up my drawing arm I was hunting. 

Jerry with the technology we have in today's bows, if you are serious about hunting with a bow next August, I'll have you ready to go.


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## adamsoa

Wiley,

My question for you is how are we ever going to get any tags for the Crossbow hunt or a season? It seems that you and the other groups are so against someone intruding on YOUR hunting space that you aren’t willing to have any give.

Here us an honest question for you. If there was a separate crossbow season when would it be. Also where would we get any tags. You know as well as I do that tag numbers are being cut. Would you support a small number of tags on a limited basis say a few hundred or so total taken out of the other pools to see just what kind of impact crossbows would have???

You appear to be VERY against crossbows being used for any reason during the archery hunt. Would you support to have it somewhere else? Would you support hunt in September? Crossbows have been shown to have the same impact as other archery equipment on game. Wouldn’t we be better off having a few more tags in a pool like that?

Also would you support crossbows being used during the Turkey, Bear and Cougar hunts? 
None of those would take anything away from your vertical archery guys.

I guess the overall question that I'm asking is how can we come to some sort of compromise? I know that you really care about Utah wildlife and hunting. We seem to be polar opposites on this issue. What I want to know is if there is some sort of middle ground we can come to? 

We might not agree on the deer and elk hunts right now but are there any possibilities for your support towards crossbows for anything else or for any other seasons.


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## bullsnot

BPturkeys said:


> I say stop the foolishness...just start the deer/elk/what ever hunt on some given day, let it run the course of time, let the hunter use what ever LETHAL weapon he wants and be done with it.


Not that simple. Archers have half the success rate of the any weapon crowd meaning you can have twice the archers in the field as any weapon hunters and kill the same amount of deer. If you make the hunt just any weapon there will certainly be less tags to go around. Everyone loses in that scenario.

Anyone know the success rates of crossbows in other states compared to archery and rifle hunters?


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

Aren't they already legal during Any Weapon hunts? It's called "Any Weapon".


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## adamsoa

They arent legal for any weapons hunts. They arent legal for bear, cougar, any once on a lifetime (any weapon) hunt. They also arent legal for turkey hunts.

I think that Bear, Cougar, Turkey and once in a life time should be a home run. None of these tags would be a take away from anyone. You can hunt bear, cougar and OIL with a gun or a bow your choice. Why would anyone care if I used a crossbow?

Also I'd love to hunt turkey with a crossbow. I can use my shotgun with a turkey choke and multiple rounds or a bow. The crossbow has no real advantage over either of these weapons.

If anyone has a valid reason for restrictions for the above listed hunts please share them with me.


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## elkfromabove

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Aren't they already legal during Any Weapon hunts? It's called "Any Weapon".


No, they are not!
Per page 37 2011 Big Game Field Regulations Guidebook (Proclamation);
DEFINITIONS
*Any legal Weapon* means the weapons described on pages 26-28 under Firearms and Archery Equipment.

Per page 28;
*Archery equipment*
You may not use any of the following archery equipment to take big game.
-A crossbow (please see _Utah Admin Rule R657-12_ for an exception to this rule)


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## bullsnot

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Aren't they already legal during Any Weapon hunts? It's called "Any Weapon".


Actually it's "Any Legal Weapon" and crossbows are only legal for those with a Dr's note. Crossbows are prohibited for everyone else and this is spelled out in the field regs. Legal weapons include bows, handguns, muzzleloaders, and rifles and all of them have specific requirements that they must meet including some technology restrictions.


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## adamsoa

Bullsnot,

The success rates of crossbows to verticle bows are almost identical. I've recently spoken to the Wyoming DWR and they no longer track the success rates of Crossbows and Verticle bows seperately. They stopped a few years ago because over the 20 year period they've allowed them there was never any real difference. They have approximately 10-15 percent of archery hunters who choose to use a crossbow.

Crossbows have grown in popularity recently and especially back east they are extremely popular. Several states have as many crossbow hunters as verticle archers. In all of these states they have shown the success rates to be almost exactally the same.

There is no real difference in the harvest rates of crossbows over other forms of archery. Like I listed above even in Wyoming which is pretty similar to Utah they dont have any difference in the success rates.

Here is a link to a slide show on some info on crossbows. Its a pretty good site. Click on the fundamentals of crossbow dynamics.

http://www.northamericancrossbowfederat ... nfoEdu.php


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## MadHunter

JuddCT said:


> Are you okay giving up some archery tags for the crossbow only season? What about part of that August/September hunt that "archers" currently have? Or are we only going to make the muzzy/rifle guys give something up?


No one would be giving anything up. do you really think that if crossbows were allowed it would bring 10K, 15K of maybe 20K additional hunters out of the woodwork? The only thing we would see is hunter numbers shift from one weapon to another. IT WOULD NOT TAKE AWAY ANYTHING. What I see here is fear of change. Nobody like change. Especially when they perceive it will take something away from them. Well guess what... a lot of us here also perceive the new 30 unit system takes away a lot from us and we just have to deal with it. So.... if crossbows are allowed at some point....deal with it!


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## JuddCT

MadHunter said:


> JuddCT said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you okay giving up some archery tags for the crossbow only season? What about part of that August/September hunt that "archers" currently have? Or are we only going to make the muzzy/rifle guys give something up?
> 
> 
> 
> No one would be giving anything up. do you really think that if crossbows were allowed it would bring 10K, 15K of maybe 20K additional hunters out of the woodwork? The only thing we would see is hunter numbers shift from one weapon to another. IT WOULD NOT TAKE AWAY ANYTHING. What I see here is fear of change. Nobody like change. Especially when they perceive it will take something away from them. Well guess what... a lot of us here also perceive the new 30 unit system takes away a lot from us and we just have to deal with it. So.... if crossbows are allowed at some point....deal with it!
Click to expand...

I agree with what you are saying, but my point is that individual groups (BOWhunters 
) might have additional people they would be competing with if crossbows were allowed as "Archery" equipment. Those currently putting in for archery would see their odds drop.


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## Duckking88

I really dont understand the pure hate that crossbows recive from hunters. If you really think about it a compound with all of its cams and pulleys is really just a crossbow you have to hold back. I have switched over and have been shooting a longbow with home made arrows and I can say it is much harder than a compound bow, but I love it. If all of these other states dont have a problem with it let people use them, it all comes down to still getting close to the game. I also find it funny that people are saying bowhunters are whiners and should just be regular hunters. Do they not realize that the bow and spear were used long before rifles of any kind.


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## coyoteslayer

The crossbow versus compound is the same stupid argument as Traditional ML versus inline ML, compound versus longbows, open sights versus 1X scopes.


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## Airborne

adamsoa said:


> There is no real difference in the harvest rates of crossbows over other forms of archery. Like I listed above even in Wyoming which is pretty similar to Utah they dont have any difference in the success rates.


HA HA HA--Wyoming similar to Utah--HA HA!!

that is rich buddy--oh my heck--did you just say that--so dumb

I am going to assume you have not spent much time in Wyoming--Wyoming is full of game--Utah--well not so much.

I believe this was all discussed the last 18 times we have talked about crossbows--here is it to sum it up:

Crossbows are great in areas with large amounts of game in proportion to the hunter population--like wyoming, ohio and other states with hundreds of thousands of game animals--Ohio hunters kill more deer each year than Utah's total deer population.

In states with dismal game populations (here). crossbows would transfer or take avway opportunity from some group that currently has the opportunity. It would take rifle hunters into archery season making it more crowded and harder to draw so it would suck for current archers. If you take some rifle tags away and make them crossbow tags you are taking opportunity from the rifle guys. Not to mention what season they are going to hunt in--again adding crowding to whatever season you put them in. This state just cut thousands of tags--do ya really think they are going to add tags for crossguns--I mean bows--NO!

so there you have it--it is dumb to discuss because it hurts everyones currently sub par hunting situation--making it worse. Add about 50k deer to the state and then start this boring thread again. As for elk do we archers really want more crowding in the general/spike/cow areas? I don't--next thing you know they will cap it because too many hunters are sticking too many elk--you add 20k more crossbow hunters to archery season and see what happens


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## adamsoa

Airborne,

Ah where to start. Its hard to stoop to your level of name calling so I wont. You obviously have an opinion and no one will change it. 
As for the argument The terrain and animals in Utah are very similar to that in Wyoming. What I am saying is that there is NO DIFFERENCE in the harvest rates for Crossbows and Verticle bows. I would like to see them legal for both Deer and Elk. 

There arent going to be any more tags given out and I think it would make a lot more sense to have more hunters in less effective methods of hunting. No one ever said to have 20,000 more tags given to cross bow hunters. What I did say is that I would like to see some tags available to guys shooting crossows.
I understand that's not going to happen right now.

While you are throwing out opinions please give me a VALID reason other than your opinion as to why they shouldnt be legal for Bear, Cougar, OIL and Turkeys. It would have NO EFFECT on verticle archers or gun hunters to allow them for these animals. They are no more effective that the current weapons allowed for these hunts. 

Other than the fact that you dont like them.


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## adamsoa

On a side note you hate them for the elk hunt because its too crowded? I've been an archer for a long time. I've spent the last five years hunting the South Slope. There have there have been only a couple of times I've seen ANY other hunters when I get off of the road hunting.
My shoulders are fairly shot. Not quite bad enough for a COR but getting close.

I'd be willing to bet that crossbow inclusion wouldnt mean a pumpkin army on every hill.

One more thing.

I'm trying to understand your reasoning.

Based on what you have written you seem to believe that crossbows are much more effective than they are. All of the statistics show that they really arent any more effective than other archery equipment.
You seem to think everyone would switch over to them.
Wyoming averages about 10-15 percent of archers that use crossbows. Some use both crossbows and verticle bows. 

A lot of the arguments that you are making come right from the pope and young guys. They hate crossbows and fight their inclusion at every oppertunity. 

The thing is, they havent proven to be the boggie man in the closet that you guys make them out to be. The states that include them havent seen the demise of verticle archers. They havent seen the demise of rifle guys. 

Its interesting that you think 20000 tags would be taken away. I think that some hunters would take the oppertunity to give crossbows/archery a try. No where did anyone suggest 20000 tags. I thing that the first year selling 500 would be a huge accomplishment.
No one is calling for all verticle bow guys to turn their releases in. Just the oppertunity to give something else a try. 
And hunters would still have to sneak into withing ethical range---thats a whole nother thought--And shoot the animal. 

Have you ever shot a crossbow? Do you have any experience as to how effective they are or how easy they are or arent to shoot? I had a much different oppinion of them until I started to shoot them. They are a lot harder to shoot well than most guys think. Unlike what a lot of people say they arent all that easy just to pick up and hit what you want. It takes a lot of setting up and practice to shoot them the way that some guys think they can.


Finally once again---do you have a reasonable argument against them for bears, cougars, OIL and turkeys?


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## Finnegan

Crossbows will soon be legal in Utah because from a wildlife management perspective, they serve a purpose. In all the short-sighted bickering over weapons, let's not get so wrapped up in ourselves that we forget that they're all management tools.

The rifle is a great tool. Some believe that like a roll of duct tape, a rifle can be used for everything. There was a day when that might have been true, back when Utah's human population was half of what it is today. But that day's gone and our population is still growing.

The bow is a great tool. The necessity for and success of the extended archery hunts is proven, not to even mention the additional benefits of archery. As the population grows, the need for bowhunters can only increase. But let's get real, bowhunting isn't for anybody and everybody.

The crossbow provides an entry into archery for the "would if I could" archer...the hunter who would choose archery if he could, but can't because of one inability or another. Remember that the COR for crossbows was established before we dropped the minimum age for big game hunting and before we started passing out archery tags to kids. Fact is, a lot of kids, (and a fair number of adults), can't draw 40 pounds. My NASP team has 68 members (13-16 years old) and over 1/3 can't even draw 20 pounds.

The crossbow isn't a bow. Neither is the compound bow. But there is no bowhunt in Utah - there's an archery hunt. We need crossbows in our tool chest. But what purpose does a COR for crossbows or draw-locks serve? None that I can see.


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## adamsoa

+1
Thanks Finnegan. Thats as well put as I've ever heard it.


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## JERRY

adamsoa said:


> +1
> Thanks Finnegan. Thats as well put as I've ever heard it.


Adamsoa, you handled yourself well with airborne. I commend you.

Well thought out as always Finn. Thank you!

A tag is a tag. They can only give out so many. This is just a way to get some of the folks who might otherwise not get a tag the opportunity to get out and hunt.


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## bwhntr23

I still don't see why people can't see how simple it is to try out crossbows with the Archery elk tags. I want someone to give me one good reason why they shouldn't be legal to use crossbows during the Archery elk hunt. The tags are unlimited so whoever wanted to try the sport could, you wouldn't be taking away opportunity from anyone or any "group of hunters", it creates more opportunity to hunt which most people are wanting.


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## Iron Bear

Yes! :roll: In today's age of limited hunting opportunities. With growing human populations and the trend of lowering tag allocations. We should focus on getting every air breathing human an avenue to come compete for our *limited* resource.

Especially if it means they can go out a week before the hunt and buy a crossbow and be as proficient with it as 90% of the guys out there now.

I'm fine with the regs as they are today. If you need one, great prove it and you can use one. If it is just because you want to, then go to Wyoming. I really have a hard time believing an able bodied person cannot pull back 40lbs if they practiced.


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## bwhntr23

I don't agree with sending people out of state and taking the money with them that the division needs so badly when we have a way to keep it in state. The tags are unlimited for Archery elk. Iron- I think it would surprise you how many people go out and buy a bow, rifle, or muzzleloader the week before the hunt, heck even the day before the hunt so why not just add one more weapon to that list. I still think they should take care of practicing well before the hunts!


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## Airborne

The reading comprehension skills here really amaze me!
Couple of questions for mr Adamsoa

Where did I ever talk about harvest rates?--you are caught up on that one buddy--I never said one thing about the killing prowess of the crossbow

Where did I say I don't like crossbows?--I don't want less hunting opportunity--that's what crossbows would do to archers in this state

I threw out the 20k number of more elk hunters as an example--you nor I know how many more (elk) hunters the crossbow inclusion would bring--just that it would bring more hunters into the archery season--meaning more crowding and less opportunity. Don't be so self centric when it comes to hunter crowding, just because you don't see many hunters in the field does not mean others are the same. At some point the state will place a cap on archery elk if the numbers are increased greatly--crossbows would contribute to this.

As for allowing crossbows in other seasons like cougar/bear/turkey. It is a slippery slope--allow them in one area and allow them in other hunts--thereby limiting archer opportunity. Also because those other hunts allow rifles and shotguns the level of participation by crossbow people would probably be just you--and maybe a couple other weirdos.

This is a tiring discussion, you are not going to change my opinion and I am not going to change yours. But if you are going to debate it please at least fully read my post and address my points of the argument--not projecting your own tired points that have been rehashed hundreds of times--this goes for any of your forum fans as well who seem to also lack reading comprehension skills.

Also instead of *&#$ing on my head and tell me its rain--just be truthful--tell me you want to limit archery opportunity and replace it with crossbow shooters, tell me you want to increase the number of hunters afield during archery season thereby making archery season worse. Be honest with me--just tell me you want to F-#$-up archery in the state and be proud of what you want to do. I don't like what you are doing but at least I can respect blunt honesty


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## Moostickles

Airborne said:


> The reading comprehension skills here really amaze me!
> Couple of questions for mr Adamsoa
> 
> Where did I ever talk about harvest rates?--you are caught up on that one buddy--I never said one thing about the killing prowess of the crossbow
> 
> Where did I say I don't like crossbows?--I don't want less hunting opportunity--that's what crossbows would do to archers in this state
> 
> I threw out the 20k number of more elk hunters as an example--you nor I know how many more (elk) hunters the crossbow inclusion would bring--just that it would bring more hunters into the archery season--meaning more crowding and less opportunity. Don't be so self centric when it comes to hunter crowding, just because you don't see many hunters in the field does not mean others are the same. At some point the state will place a cap on archery elk if the numbers are increased greatly--crossbows would contribute to this.
> 
> As for allowing crossbows in other seasons like cougar/bear/turkey. It is a slippery slope--allow them in one area and allow them in other hunts--thereby limiting archer opportunity. Also because those other hunts allow rifles and shotguns the level of participation by crossbow people would probably be just you--and maybe a couple other weirdos.
> 
> This is a tiring discussion, you are not going to change my opinion and I am not going to change yours. But if you are going to debate it please at least fully read my post and address my points of the argument--not projecting your own tired points that have been rehashed hundreds of times--this goes for any of your forum fans as well who seem to also lack reading comprehension skills.
> 
> Also instead of *&#$ing on my head and tell me its rain--just be truthful--tell me you want to limit archery opportunity and replace it with crossbow shooters, tell me you want to increase the number of hunters afield during archery season thereby making archery season worse. Be honest with me--just tell me you want to F-#$-up archery in the state and be proud of what you want to do. I don't like what you are doing but at least I can respect blunt honesty


I think Adamosa, as well as several other "forum fan" "weirdos", understood your post perfectly. They explained their opinions of your post very clearly, only they did it without insult. Your arguments aren't really holding any water, because you are just "throwing numers out there," and they seem to be brought up strictly on emotion rather than logic (as was mentioned by several other "forum fans" who apparently don't have "reading comprehension skills").

If the DWR focused on bringing more hunters over to archery (let say without allowing crossbows), would you be against that?

Adamosa, you referenced Wyoming's archery hunt findings. If you can, please let us know where you found those statistics. I would help the whole argument.


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## MadHunter

Iron Bear said:


> I'm fine with the regs as they are today.


As I stated earlier in the post. Its a fear of change because you think it take away something from you when in reality it does not. Most of you opposed to this are making it sound like there is a group of thousands of crossbow enthusiasts waiting for the chance to snag a tag away from other hunters. Trust me there is no such group.



Iron Bear said:


> I really have a hard time believing an able bodied person cannot pull back 40lbs if they practiced.


I am an able bodied person. I consider myself to be as physically strong as any average guy my age and build. at one point I was able to pull an 80# bow. But I have a rebuilt rotator cuff and cannot pull a bow back. It just happens to be that the a bow draw could cause me to re-injure my shoulder where other types of movement would not. Should I go get a doctors note or should I have the option to use a crossbow IF I CHOOSE TO DO SO?

Closing out the opportunity to use a crossbow is narrow minded in my opinion. and just for the record, I have no intention or interest in using a crossbow. I am hoping that my shoulder will heal and strengthen ehough that I can draw a bow again.


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## coyoteslayer

> Where did I say I don't like crossbows?--I don't want less hunting opportunity--that's what crossbows would do to archers in this state


Archers want to increase the number of permits because right now a lot of archery hunters don't even draw an archery tag. Archery hunters keep saying that managing deer with archery equipment give a lot of hunters more opportunity.

therefore, you need to win over the rifle hunting crowd in order to take permits from them to increase the archery permits. archery hunters would be lucky to get out of meeting alive if they thought they were just going to propose taking rifle and ML away without anything in return.

Issuing crossbow permits would help solve this issue. Crossbow hunters aren't going to kill more deer. Because their success rate would be the same as the archery success rate is now. People who choose to hunt with a crossbow would also be hunting during the archery hunt because both shoot the same distance. The only difference is compounds shoot an arrow and crossbows shoot a bolt, but it still looks like an arrow and flys like an arrow.

This could help archery hunter reach the 33/33/33 tag allotment that they have been crying about.


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## swbuckmaster

I'm all for 33% 33% 33% 1% sfw


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## DallanC

I think one could modify the locking mechanism of a crossbow so that the shooter has to hold the string in the locked position, say with a few ounces of force. Then, because the tension isnt full held by the bow itself, it should be legal right? I mean compound bows have energy reduction letoffs... this would just be a horizonal compound bow with a 99.99% letoff.


-DallanC


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## bullsnot

Airborne said:


> [In states with dismal game populations (here). crossbows would transfer or take avway opportunity from some group that currently has the opportunity. It would take rifle hunters into archery season making it more crowded and harder to draw so it would suck for current archers. If you take some rifle tags away and make them crossbow tags you are taking opportunity from the rifle guys. Not to mention what season they are going to hunt in--again adding crowding to whatever season you put them in. This state just cut thousands of tags--do ya really think they are going to add tags for crossguns--I mean bows--NO!


I guess this is the argument I don't understand. People that would choose to hunt with a crossbow would not be aliens from other planets.

Let's suppose we do a survey and figure out who would pick up a crossbow if you had a crossbow season. Let's say, hypothetically, the results come back and you find that 1% of archers say they would switch, 1% of muzzy hunters say they would switch, and 1% of rifle hunters say they would switch. If you take an equal percentage of tags from each pool nobody loses anything because you may lose say 100 rifle tags but if 120 rifle hunters put in for crossbow tags rather than a rifle tag, those that choose to continue to put in for a rifle tag will have the exact same odds at drawing and will have essentially lost nothing because they have less competition to draw a tag that offsets the loss in available tags.

This would especially be true if during your survey you determine that, after crunching your numbers from a representative sample, that 5,000 people say they would switch and you only offer 500 tags likely the crossbow would be the hardest to draw and pull many more hunters out of the other draws than actual tags lost even if only a quarter of those that said they'd put in for a crossbow actually do.

It doesn't matter when the season is, can be concurrent with any other season. With tehcnology limits you can assume roughly the same success rate as archery at first and refine as time goes on.


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## bullsnot

DallanC said:


> I think one could modify the locking mechanism of a crossbow so that the shooter has to hold the string in the locked position, say with a few ounces of force. Then, because the tension isnt full held by the bow itself, it should be legal right? I mean compound bows have energy reduction letoffs... this would just be a horizonal compound bow with a 99.99% letoff.
> 
> -DallanC


Let me ask one simple question....if it's true that archery and crossbow success rates are essentially the same, as reported in at least one case, why would we give a hoot about a locking mechanism? (I acknowledge that it's not yet definitive that success rates are the same but let's just say hypothetically for a moment we know they are for arugments sake)

Honestly I could really care less if the thing was voice activiated IF it didn't change success rates. (and wounding rates) Obviously technology is a concern among hunters because we fear it will give the hunter an advantage and increase success, that's the driving force behind these concerns. But if success rates are the same then I frankly don't understand the concern.


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## DallanC

bullsnot said:


> Let me ask one simple question....if it's true that archery and crossbow success rates are essentially the same, as reported in at least one case, why would we give a hoot about a locking mechanism? (I acknowledge that it's not yet definitive that success rates are the same but let's just say hypothetically for a moment we know they are for arugments sake)


I'm just muddying the waters. It seems like thats the primary argument between the "For's" and "Against's". Both have to be drawn. Both shoot vein'd shafted projectiles. Both have force multipliers (or force reducers if you want to think of it that way, ie: letoff). Having the frame hold the weight vs the shooter holding the weight (even though its extremely low) seems to be a big sticking point among the anti-xbow folk.

Its a similar argument to me as the traditional vs inline muzzleloader arguments. Traditional smokepole'ers are quick to point out all the percieved advantages of an inline, but quick to ignore all of the advantages a "traditional" hawkin style rifle has over a true, 1830's muzzleloader. They even ignore that Inlines were created BEFORE hawkin's (1734, Germany).

Now if this were a "traditional bow" vs "crossbow" comparison then you bet I see a big difference, and its a very valid argument. But to allow all kinds of tech in a compound bow but draw the line at some other form of "older" tech in the other is really silly to me.

I hate inconsistancy in arguments like this :O•-:

-DallanC


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## adamsoa

Direct,

You asked about the information on numbers. Some I got off of the crossbow federation website I listed earlier. They have links to various states dwr sites showing crossbow success rates. For the Wyoming numbers I called the Wyoming dwr. They told me that about 6 years ago they stopped keeping individual stats because they didnt have any real differences. 
They also have several reports on their website about hunter numbers. I downloaded several and can send them to you if you'd like. 

Im on a trip right now so it might take a day--I'm not that great of a phone typer.


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## elkfromabove

DallanC said:


> I'm just muddying the waters. It seems like thats the primary argument between the "For's" and "Against's". Both have to be drawn. Both shoot vein'd shafted projectiles. Both have force multipliers (or force reducers if you want to think of it that way, ie: letoff). Having the frame hold the weight vs the shooter holding the weight (even though its extremely low) seems to be a big sticking point among the anti-xbow folk.


 It's also a sticking point among the DWR folk.
Again per page 28 Big Game Field Regulations:
"You may not use any for the following archery equipment to take big game:
-A mechanical device that holds the bow in any increment of draw." 
(with the exception of a doctor certified disabled person)

I suspect safety issues are the reason for the rule (same for a loaded gun), but several rules would have to be changed by the legislature if crossbows were to be considered legal hunting weapons. And good luck with that!


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## JuddCT

I thought these articles were interesting:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/outdoors/118716194.html

http://www.nj.gov/dep/fgw/artxbow08.htm

https://fp.auburn.edu/sfws/ditchkoff/PDF publications/2001 - SEAFWA.pdf This one got me thinking that real "Traditional" Archers probably have something to argue about.

http://myfwc.com/media/1381902/2010_Jun_Crossbows_presentation.pdf

http://www.marylandqdma.com/files/Download/Pedersen-31-34.pdf Interesting tidbit on wounding for compound/crossbows.


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## Moostickles

elkfromabove said:


> ...several rules would have to be changed by the legislature if crossbows were to be considered legal hunting weapons.


Such as???


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## Moostickles

Thanks Judd, those are interesting articles. Here are some quotes from a few of them that support what a few other forum members have stated:



> Data collected from the 48 states that currently have some type of crossbow hunting (including New Jersey) indicate that crossbows are as safe as other types of bows; their use does not increase either hunting accidents or wounding of game. The success rate of crossbow hunters is equal to - or only slightly better than - hunters with compound bows. No state with legalized crossbow use during the archery seasons has needed to reduce the bag limit nor shorten the archery seasons as a result of crossbow hunting.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Council's proposal to broaden crossbow use is based on the positive attributes of crossbow hunting. These benefits include improved hunter recruitment and retention, better deer management in areas of suburban/rural interface and increased agency revenue. Crossbows may encourage a greater participation by youths, women and others who have difficulty drawing a regular bow to engage in the sport and start (or maintain) a family hunting tradition.
> 
> Crossbows will also enable aging hunters with various physical limitations not defined as a handicap, to continue with or to come back to the sport they love. Crossbows can be a practical alternative in populated areas where firearms discharge has been restricted by local ordinance. This will assist Fish and Wildlife to achieve deer management objectives where hunter access has been limited. And while no additional fees will be charged to hunt with a crossbow, additional revenue is anticipated through an increase in archery license and Permit Bow Season permit sales.
> 
> http://www.nj.gov/dep/fgw/artxbow08.htm
> &
> http://www.nj.gov/dep/fgw/pdf/2008/xbowsurvey07.pdf





> The Wisconsin DNR has termed the issue "social" and not taken a stance on the question. But some wildlife managers in other states support the wider use of crossbows.
> 
> Crossbows not only help recruit young hunters but help retain older hunters, too, said Mike Tonkovich, deer management administrator of the Ohio Division of Wildlife.
> 
> "As our hunter population continues to age, the crossbow will continue to play a vital role in our deer program, both in our rural and urban areas," Tonkovich said.
> 
> http://www.jsonline.com/sports/outdoors/118716194.html





> Harvest Success rates tend to be similar for hunters using crossbows and bows.
> 
> ...
> 
> In a direct comparison of bows and crossbows, there are a number of key differences to recognize. Crossbows tend to have much greater draw weights, but have a shorter "power stroke" than bows which results in similar arrow speeds between bows and crossbows.
> 
> Crossbows are often cited as having a greater range than bows. Crossbows will provide hunters with an extended range, but the effective range is still limited to approximately 60 yards or less. A skilled bow hunter can shoot effectively out to 50 yards, but most bow hunters limit shots to 30 yards or less.
> 
> ...
> 
> May help recruit new hunters.
> 
> ...
> 
> Could be an important tool for managing urban [wildlife.]
> 
> http://myfwc.com/media/1381902/2010_Jun ... tation.pdf


Food for thought.


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## elkfromabove

UtahHuntingDirect said:


> elkfromabove said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...several rules would have to be changed by the legislature if crossbows were to be considered legal hunting weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Such as???
Click to expand...

R657-5-11 (1)(d)? arrow size and weight
R657-5-11 (2)(a) no crossbows except for impaired hunters
R657-5-11 (2)(c) no mechanical device holding increment of draw
R657-12 criteria needed to be considered an impaired hunter:

as well as numerous Federal, County, City ordinances allowing (or not) archery hunting.


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## bullsnot

elkfromabove said:


> UtahHuntingDirect said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elkfromabove said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...several rules would have to be changed by the legislature if crossbows were to be considered legal hunting weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Such as???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> R657-5-11 (1)(d)? arrow size and weight
> R657-5-11 (2)(a) no crossbows except for impaired hunters
> R657-5-11 (2)(c) no mechanical device holding increment of draw
> R657-12 criteria needed to be considered an impaired hunter:
> 
> as well as numerous Federal, County, City ordinances allowing (or not) archery hunting.
Click to expand...

These are division rules which are not controlled by the legislature and can be modified through the RAC/WB process. Sometimes there are state laws in place where a rule is created to be in compliance with the law. To my knowledge there are no state laws in place that exist prevent these division rules to be modified through the RAC/WB process. If I'm wrong about that please educate me.


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## Moostickles

elkfromabove said:


> UtahHuntingDirect said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elkfromabove said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...several rules would have to be changed by the legislature if crossbows were to be considered legal hunting weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Such as???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> R657-5-11 (1)(d)? arrow size and weight
> R657-5-11 (2)(a) no crossbows except for impaired hunters
> R657-5-11 (2)(c) no mechanical device holding increment of draw
> R657-12 criteria needed to be considered an impaired hunter:
> 
> as well as numerous Federal, County, City ordinances allowing (or not) archery hunting.
Click to expand...

*Edit - Bullsnot beat me to it. What he said...


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## elkfromabove

bullsnot said:


> elkfromabove said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UtahHuntingDirect said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elkfromabove said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...several rules would have to be changed by the legislature if crossbows were to be considered legal hunting weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Such as???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> R657-5-11 (1)(d)? arrow size and weight
> R657-5-11 (2)(a) no crossbows except for impaired hunters
> R657-5-11 (2)(c) no mechanical device holding increment of draw
> R657-12 criteria needed to be considered an impaired hunter:
> 
> as well as numerous Federal, County, City ordinances allowing (or not) archery hunting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> These are division rules which are not controlled by the legislature and can be modified through the RAC/WB process. Sometimes there are state laws in place where a rule is created to be in compliance with the law. To my knowledge there are no state laws in place that exist prevent these division rules to be modified through the RAC/WB process. If I'm wrong about that please educate me.
Click to expand...

  I stand corrected. But the task of getting them changed through the RAC/WB process is probably even harder than it would be through the legislature. So, good luck with that!!


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## swbuckmaster

elkfromabove said:


> I stand corrected. But the task of getting them changed through the RAC/WB process is probably even harder than it would be through the legislature. So, good luck with that!!


actually sfw/wildlife board could give a rip about this. Its the bowhunting groups that have shut it down in the past! If it was proposed and backed by the bowhunting groups it would pass imho.


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## Moostickles

swbuckmaster said:


> actually sfw/wildlife board could give a rip about this. Its the bowhunting groups that have shut it down in the past! If it was proposed and backed by the bowhunting groups it would pass imho.


That's true. That was the snag in a lot of those studies that were shared earlier. However, the studies also showed that when an unbiased questionnaire was sent out to get the opinion of "all" hunters (study was taken in NJ), it showed that many more people were in favor allowing crossbows for hunting. The results are copied below:

- Total support (strong support and moderate support) for the expansion of the use of crossbows for deer hunting was overwhelmingly in favor (73%) among all respondents.

- When broken down by user groups, total support was still in favor of crossbows: bow & gun hunters, 72%; gun-only hunters, 79%; bow-only hunters, 67%. The majority of non-deer hunters were also in favor of crossbows (56%).


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## adrenoman

I am considering purchasing a crossbow just for the fun of having one. I would like to see Utah allow them in certain hunts. I have been reading the comments about bow vs crossbow posts. I am an avid black powder hunter here in Utah. It seems that the same argument stands as traditional black powder vs the new in lines. I would say it is the exact same situation. It comes down to which argument you are for.


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## Renegade

Here's some input from someone who owns and has hunted deer, hogs & turkeys with a crossbow, me:

Crossbows are archery equipment. They are highly advanced archery equipment, but the use limbs, a string/cable, cams, arrow (bolt), broadhead, fletchings/vanes, quiver etal.

In unlimited tag areas, there is no reason to not allow them for the archery hunt. In areas like Utah, you may find a handful of idiots that think they can all of a sudden go arrow an elk since this high tech device is now going to make it so easy, but.... Once they spend the first 12 minutes carrying that thing up the mountain, it's all over. If it's not, it will be while they're standing on the trail trying to hold that 3' wide thing steady in the wind without getting busted.

The cumbersomeness of today's crossbows erases the advantage of the ****ed transport ability. Also, I don't care how fast that 20" bolt is going, after 40-45 yards, it's going down rapidly, so you need to be as proficient if not more than you do with a compound. It's just not as simple as anti-crossbow people make it out to be. 

Now whether or not it should be allowed in LE archery areas? That's debatable, depending on the demand for tags by crossbow shooters.


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## Renegade

Let me add, As a hunter with experience in the field, there is no way I would use a crossbow on a mountain hunt.


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## swbuckmaster

Renegade said:


> Also, I don't care how fast that 20" bolt is going, after 40-45 yards, it's going down rapidly, so you need to be as proficient if not more than you do with a compound. It's just not as simple as anti-crossbow people make it out to be.


That is not correct!

You have a 400 grain arrow 20" long going 350-380 fps out of a crossbow and you have a 400 grain arrow going 330 fps out of one of the fastest bows out with a 30" draw. There is no way in heck that cross bow doesn't have an advantage over the bow. Its simple physics! Throw in the fact the guy with the cross bow wont have to practice except for sighting it in. The cross bows today are way more capable of taking game at a 100 yards then a modern compound bow. To say other wise would be misleading. This is the main reason you see crossbow/rifle guys pushing it.

I have to practice year round to be able to hit anything at a 100 yards with any consistency i could give my 9 year old daughter a cross bow and she could do it in a few minutes and her arrow would have more weight and velocity then my arrow would.


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## Renegade

You are mistaken. ANd it is painfully obvious you have never picked up & fired any crossbow.

Crossbows are speed rated the same as compounds. A specific weight arrow (bolt), a specific weight field point, no fletchings or vanes, and a mechanical firing device in a closed temperature controlled environment to achiev the maximum speed for the books.

Take that rig out into the real world & put on fletchings, use a normal length arrow (bolt), string silencers, different broadheads, sound dampeners, etal & pump that baby through a speed trap.


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## swbuckmaster

Nuff said 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gly3bafU ... ata_player

A crossbow at a 100 yards is dang near as good as a rifle! So easy my 9 year old could do it. Guaranteed my 12 year old can shoot every bit as good as this dude the first time out.


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## DallanC

I've love to hunt with a cross bow just because I've never done it and it looks fun. Same reason we all own several guns and bows... its fun to use a variety of different things. 


-DallanC


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## swbuckmaster

This ones good and should drive it home. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrqnLDgj ... ata_player


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## swbuckmaster

Dont kid yourself renagade
100 yards is a chip shot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlDi-5ue ... ata_player


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## JERRY

This is just my opinion. I believe success and wounding rates would stay the same, or pretty close. Getting out , getting close, and sealing the deal are all factors. Not to mention adrenaline and shaky nerves. Decisions, knowledge, and luck are the biggest factors in hunting success. Not your type of archery equipment. People have been killing animals for centuries with spears, and wood arrows. 

An arrow out of a traditional bow, compound bow, or a cross bow, is still an arrow. :shock: 

Wounding rates may be less with a cross bow, given the accuracy some have eluded to. Which in my opinion is a good thing. 8)

As with any type of weapon, people are going to make unwise, unethical decisions, and those are the factors you have to take into consideration when looking at legalizing cross bows for taking game here in Utah. 

For me I don't see a problem with letting people use cross bows in the archery season. o-||


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## swbuckmaster

As for lugging them around. Ive seen quite a few handicaps on the front as far in as i hunt and i see more handicaps every year.


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## DallanC

After watching those youtube videos and searched for 200 yard bow shots and wala... lots of videos of people making 200+ yard archery shots. Seems technology has made both types of weapons very capable over long range.


-DallanC


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## elk22hunter

If people are wanting to give them a whirl on a trial basis, why change Utah's rules just yet? Go to Wyoming and hunt some Doe Antelope for $35.00 and have the time of your life. Or see if it's the time of your life.


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## swbuckmaster

Dallan
Are you going to tell me a new guy with a bow is capable shooting groups at any distance as good as a new guy with a cross bow. If you are your full of hooey.

What some of you dont realize is i could care less if crossbows are allowed. I would gladly allow with open arms crossbows if the cut the rifle tags back. A hundred yards compared to a 1000 is a no brainer when it comes to increased deer survival.


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## DallanC

swbuckmaster said:


> Dallan
> Are you going to tell me a new guy with a bow is capable shooting groups at any distance as good as a new guy with a cross bow. If you are your full of hooey.


If I was going to tell you that I would have typed it. I only said "Seems technology has made both types of weapons very capable over long range."

I agree a novice will shoot a crossbow more accurately. But modern bows are also way easier to shoot than bows made 3 decades ago (my first bow was a PSE I bought in '82).

I've archery hunted a few times. Killed a couple deer and an elk. I prefer smokepoles over anything else, I just think it would be fun to try something different.

-DallanC


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## adamsoa

Come on Scott, you knew I would argue with this one. 
Here are a few points:
That video that you posted is misleading as heck. That guy is a pro shooter shooting off of a bench with a bow that is anything but off the shelf. 

I've shot a crossbow for a year now and its no where as easy as you are proposing. 

First of all you cant shoot the crossbow from the video off hand, period. Its too big and heavy.
To do what he did, you have to shoot off of a stable bench.

Next lets talk arrows.
To sight in my crossbow took forever. To even get tight groups at 50 yards is difficult. You have to index the arrows have them all perfect. Its easy to get a 6 inch group at 50 yards but to tighten it up takes a lot. 
Also when you are shooting faster arrows any little mistake in fletching, arrow weight etc makes a huge difference. Most arrows aren't really built to take that kind of speed. 

Now practice. I have taken GROUPS of people out to shoot crossbows on more than one occasion. I sighted in each of these crossbows off of a bench with sandbags.
Guess what? Most of the people couldn't even hit the TARGET consistently off hand or sitting down at 40 yards. Yep that's right 40 yards and with a half a day of shooting they couldn't hit the entire bag target consistently. 20 yards is pretty easy but backing to 40+ is a whole nother ball game with a crossbow.

As for off hand. I shoot a lot and I think I would have a heck of a time hitting within the 8 ring at 40 yards off hand. Its a lot harder than you think.

The 100 yard chip shot just isn't true. If you have a bench, level seating and either a sandbag or something like that. PERFECT arrows a great set up and a bow that you were familiar with sure you could do it. Off hand, kneeling, sitting ect there's no way possible. 

Crossbows take a lot more practice than you think.


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## swbuckmaster

this post didnt have an edit function when I typed it in on my phone for some reason so I retyped it below.


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## swbuckmaster

adamsoa wrote:
Come on Scott, you knew I would argue with this one. 
Here are a few points:
That video that you posted is misleading as heck. That guy is a pro shooter shooting off of a bench with a bow that is anything but off the shelf.

How do you know hes a pro shooter? Is it cause hes black? :lol:

I've shot a crossbow for a year now and its no where as easy as you are proposing.

First of all you cant shoot the crossbow from the video off hand, period. Its too big and heavy.
To do what he did, you have to shoot off of a stable bench.

No reason to shoot it off hand. That would be moronic. _(O)_ I dont shoot a rifle off hand i use a bipod.

Next lets talk arrows.
To sight in my crossbow took forever. To even get tight groups at 50 yards is difficult. You have to index the arrows have them all perfect. Its easy to get a 6 inch group at 50 yards but to tighten it up takes a lot.

No different then indexing my arrows for my bow. If anyone wants to shoot accurately that far with bow or crossgun you have to index your arrows. The only difference is a guy shooting a crossgun off a bench will take more of the human factor out of the equation. I have to buy a hooter shooter for an extra grand if I want to index them as good as you can off a crossgun. :shock: 

Also when you are shooting faster arrows any little mistake in fletching, arrow weight etc makes a huge difference. Most arrows aren't really built to take that kind of speed.

Hoggwash!! If your arrows arent meant to take that kind of speed then you need to get better arrows or learn how to tune them. You could go up 5- 10 grains in arrow weight and it will hardly make a difference out to 60 yards unless your measuring with a caliper. Straight arrows? Shorter arrows are straighter then longer arrows and "that's a fact jack." Si quote! :lol: Now if your out slamming arrows into themselves you will have to retune them because it will change the index on the arrows. 

Now practice. I have taken GROUPS of people out to shoot crossbows on more than one occasion. I sighted in each of these crossbows off of a bench with sandbags.
Guess what? Most of the people couldn't even hit the TARGET consistently off hand or sitting down at 40 yards. Yep that's right 40 yards and with a half a day of shooting they couldn't hit the entire bag target consistently.

Again i would not take my rifle out and shoot it off hand either and expect to hit anything. Thats setting yourself up for failure. :roll:

20 yards is pretty easy but backing to 40+ is a whole nother ball game with a crossbow.

I disagree

As for off hand. I shoot a lot and I think I would have a heck of a time hitting within the 8 ring at 40 yards off hand. Its a lot harder than you think.

Again agree wouldnt shoot it off hand. I dont shoot my rifle off hand.

The 100 yard chip shot just isn't true. If you have a bench, level seating and either a sandbag or something like that. PERFECT arrows a great set up and a bow that you were familiar with sure you could do it. Off hand, kneeling, sitting ect there's no way possible.

Crossbows take a lot more practice than you think.

I wont shoot my bow without a level and i wouldn't shoot a crossbow without a level either. You will have to know how to set up a bow or cross bow if you want to shoot at long distance. Its no different then shooting a rifle long distance. The factor is the human part. You simply remove more human factor with a crossbow which allows you to shoot further and do so with less practice. Lindsay can flat out shoot a rifle with no practice at all but to shoot as good as she does with a bow you will have to put in the time. No easy way around that.

We will have to agree to disagree with on this issue. 

One of the scariest thoughts for me about crossbows is some tard running around with a loaded crossbow in his truck/wheeler. Heck even packing it around ****ed locked and ready to rock is scary enough as it is. I can honestly say I think Bo Karate would make a good pro staffer for some crossbow company. :lol: -_O- :O--O:


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## proutdoors

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Crossguns should be legal for anyone with a general season or muzzy tag. I have mixed feelings about them being legal during the archery hunt. They really aren't that much more effective than todays modern compounds, but the big advantage is that you don't have to hold it back. They are quite accurate, they can be aimed very easily with a dead rest, but you still need to be dead nuts with yardage estimation and you still need to put the bolt in the boiler room to insure a quick clean kill. I say make them legal.


A-FREAKING-MEN!

I am 100% in favor of crossbows being allowed during archery season. The success rates are statistically the same, so what is the fear? Another benefit; young would be archers would be more easily able to hit the hills during the best time of the year. How many 12-14 yr old boys, let alone 12-14 yr old girls can pull back 40# and have any hope of killing a big game animal? If we are to be purists, then by all means lets be purists! No more compounds, no more mechanical releases, no more fiber sights, no more range finders, no more gps systems, no more, anything that is more 'advanced' than being adorned with a loin clothe, a self made bow, and some hand whittled shafts! Seriously!!


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## proutdoors

Finnegan said:


> Crossbows will soon be legal in Utah because from a wildlife management perspective, they serve a purpose. In all the short-sighted bickering over weapons, let's not get so wrapped up in ourselves that we forget that they're all management tools.
> 
> The rifle is a great tool. Some believe that like a roll of duct tape, a rifle can be used for everything. There was a day when that might have been true, back when Utah's human population was half of what it is today. But that day's gone and our population is still growing.
> 
> The bow is a great tool. The necessity for and success of the extended archery hunts is proven, not to even mention the additional benefits of archery. As the population grows, the need for bowhunters can only increase. But let's get real, bowhunting isn't for anybody and everybody.
> 
> The crossbow provides an entry into archery for the "would if I could" archer...the hunter who would choose archery if he could, but can't because of one inability or another. Remember that the COR for crossbows was established before we dropped the minimum age for big game hunting and before we started passing out archery tags to kids. Fact is, a lot of kids, (and a fair number of adults), can't draw 40 pounds. My NASP team has 68 members (13-16 years old) and over 1/3 can't even draw 20 pounds.
> 
> The crossbow isn't a bow. Neither is the compound bow. But there is no bowhunt in Utah - there's an archery hunt. We need crossbows in our tool chest. But what purpose does a COR for crossbows or draw-locks serve? None that I can see.


Excellent post, Finn!


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## swbuckmaster

Pro I can agree with you on these issues. Crossbows can be used as a tool for bow recruitment. Most rifle guys will never pick up a bow and hunt the archery hunt because they don't want to put in the time with a bow. A crossbow bridges this gap. It however can be used in my mind as another tool to further shoot the quality out of a herd meaning it is just one more tool that will allow a hunter to be more proficient especially if rifle tags are not cut. The crossbow however isn't anywhere close to being as proficient as a rifle. If they allow a crossbow I would like to see the archery tags increased and the rifle tags decreased. To me this would be a fair trade and a win win for increased quality across the board. I honestly believe more deer would live if the range of the weapons were decreased and shots at game decreased. A rifle is a killing machine.

I believe bowhunters need this as a trade deal and that's it. If they just lay down and take the bolt up the keister they loose a great barging tool. 

In my mind we need 33%, 33%, 33% tag allocations. 

Or we need to receive one tag and be able to hunt all three weapons. I say this knowing I might not be able to hunt as much as I do with an archery tag. But I know the quality of the hunt and quality of the game would increase. The general buck rifle hunt sucks with low game numbers and high hunter numbers. It wasn't so bad when I was a kid and the deer were literally like jack rabbits. If the game numbers were as high as they were when I was a kid Id never pick up a bow. Id gladly hunt with the 200,000 rifle hunters again. It was fun!


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## richardjb

I'm allergic to lead! I don't have a problem shooting it, just recieving it!


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## ut1031

Excellent post FINN! After years of ARCHERY and some pretty good success, my body/shoulders just cannot take a vertical bow anymore. I absolutely LOVE the ARCHERY hunt and in order to continue I will have to go to the crossbow. After shooting a bunch of different crossbows, the fact remains that you will really only get ONE SHOT and the distance to target is no different that with a vertical bow. Can a 100yd shot be taken, yes, but it can be done with a vertical bow as well. AS for being more proficient Scott, I have to disagree! Just like any other weapon, practice and hunter skills are what makes proficience, maybe add a little luck as well!


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## silentstalker

I have talked this over many times with some of you and so I will not rehash this but i will say this: Using a crossbow has an incredible advantage over the bow whether it be recurve, longbow or compound. 

The advantage I am talking about is the ability to set up on a bipod or shooting platform and await an animal on a trail, waterhole, or blind situation. Half of the challenge of the archery hunt is getting in tight and getting drawn on an animal before it becomes aware of you. To eliminate that takes away part of the difficulty in killing an animal. 

If you deny that you simply have your head in the sand. Non debatable.

I have no problems with anyone using a crossbow with shoulder or other disabilities. That is already law. Use one and good luck! Hope you slam a giant!

I also don't have a problem using them as management tool on the muzzy or any weapon hunt. That is what they are for. I would probably agree to adding them to the current archery season if the following conditions were met:

1. 1 power scope or open sight only. No magnified scopes.
2. IF and ONLY IF, the archery hunt were to receive a larger piece of the permit pie. We currently have no problem selling archery tags. If we are going to pull a bunch of hunters from the other pools, we should spread the tags out equally.
3. Restrictions on the types that Scott posted up earlier in the discussion.

I actually have a great crossbow. I have had it for a while now and love to shoot it. It is over 350 fps, fairly quiet, incredibly accurate and even my little girls can drill the bullseye out for quite a ways. They are a very deadly tool.


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## Renegade

swbuckmaster said:


> this post didnt have an edit function when I typed it in on my phone for some reason so I retyped it below.


Have you ever shot a crossbow?


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## caddis8

Here's my .02. I live in a state that allows crossbows during archery. They are not guns. They're not firearms. MZ and rifles are firearms. Crossbows really have the same effective range as archery. Can people shoot a crossbow 100 yards? Yes. Can people shoot a bow 100 yards? Yes. Should they shoot 100 yards at animals with either? Depending on the skill and conditions, it can be done, but most shouldn't attempt. Should someone shoot an animal at 800 yards with a rifle? Depending on the skill and conditions, it can be done, but most shouldn't attempt. 

I work for a large retailer that specializes in hunting, fishing, and camping. We have a lot of information available to us. Did you know that hunting and fishing participation on a national average have been declining for several years (15 or so)? Did you know that participation has ticked up with bad economic conditions slightly but is still overall trending downward? Did you know that archery sales have been trending downward over the last several years? Did you know that crossbow sales are up significantly in the last three years? Did you know that states that allow crossbows during archery ad general hunting have seen INCREASED participation in hunting? So, crossbows are showing a reversal in a long downward trend. 

What does this mean? States that allow crossbows during archery and any weapon hunts are selling more tags. Let's take this a little further. More tags equals more revenue. I don't know how many times I've read on this forum people complaining about the state's management of resources and lack of funding. Many of the same people that are complaining about funding are also attacking crossbow use. (a little general here but you get the point- hyperbole) Crossbows=more tags=more revenue. The state can then spend those extra monies on programs to better manage the great resources is has. 

Second, more tags equals more participation. More people buying tags in and out of state equals more people buying gas, hotels, groceries, gear, fast food, and sales taxes. This is more money in the local economies. Economic conditions aren't stellar right now, so any incremental money is good money. 

Third, we've spent a lot of time researching age categories of participation. As a whole, the hunt/fish category is aging. We are not recruiting or retaining younger hunters/fishers. So, let me take my 8 years old out with a crossbow and let him shoot a turkey. He has a positive experience and enjoys it. He can't draw a bow, and is too small for a shotgun. Crossbows do not have recoil, and are accurate out to 40 yards. I wouldn't have my son shoot more than 30 yards. The same goes with deer. He can hunt with me in the state of Nebraska at age 10. Guess what I'll be hauling around with me? A crossbow. I can set up a ground blind in the archery season (runs from Sept 15-Dec 31). I can have good weather, not freezing temperatures, and not have to deal with the giant crowds of the rifle hunt. I can then show him how to hunt in more controlled conditions and TEACH him about the outdoors in favorable conditions for him to have a positive experience. Do crossbows sound that bad now?

Lastly, (and opinion/soapbox time) all of this scare talk about crossbows makes me think of people complaining about in-line muzzleloaders a while back. People were 100% against them. It was like a modern rifle. Which is sort of is, except it takes longer to load, you have one shot, limited distance compared to rifles....sound familiar? Same arguments against the crossbow. Similar arguments against rifle scops can be made- makes the game easier right? Technology has advanced and has made a great tool that I will be using for my son. Guess what? My aging dad doesn't want to shoot a deer with a rifle, and doesn't want to march around in Dec with a muzzleloader cause he'd rather sit in my warm pit and shoot geese while drinking hot cocoa. He hasn't hunted deer in 30 years and he wants to go on a crossbow hunt with me. Increased participation people. 

Let's look at the long term picure. The more people we have participating in the outdoors the more money the state gets, the more voice we have in politics and legislature, and the more we can vote with our wallets. We can control our own destiny as outdoorsman, it's time to look to the future and embrace new technology. Because we'll be better off in the long run with it. End rant.


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## swbuckmaster

Renegade said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> this post didnt have an edit function when I typed it in on my phone for some reason so I retyped it below.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever shot a crossbow?
Click to expand...

Ive been shooting archery equipment for over 20 years Yes ive shot a crossbow ive even made my own. Ive also shot long bows, recurve bows, carp bows, stick bows ect if its capable of shooting an arrow ive shot them.

Everything i posted above on a crossbow and the ease of use is true.


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## swbuckmaster

caddis8 said:


> Here's my .02. I live in a state that allows crossbows during archery. They are not guns. They're not firearms. MZ and rifles are firearms. Crossbows really have the same effective range as archery. Can people shoot a crossbow 100 yards? Yes. Can people shoot a bow 100 yards? Yes. Should they shoot 100 yards at animals with either? Depending on the skill and conditions, it can be done, but most shouldn't attempt. Should someone shoot an animal at 800 yards with a rifle? Depending on the skill and conditions, it can be done, but most shouldn't attempt.
> 
> I work for a large retailer that specializes in hunting, fishing, and camping. We have a lot of information available to us. Did you know that hunting and fishing participation on a national average have been declining for several years (15 or so)? Did you know that participation has ticked up with bad economic conditions slightly but is still overall trending downward? Did you know that archery sales have been trending downward over the last several years? Did you know that states that allow crossbows during archery ad general hunting have seen INCREASED participation in hunting? So, crossbows are showing a reversal in a long downward trend.
> 
> What does this mean? States that allow crossbows during archery and any weapon hunts are selling more tags. Let's take this a little further. More tags equals more revenue. I don't know how many times I've read on this forum people complaining about the state's management of resources and lack of funding. Many of the same people that are complaining about funding are also attacking crossbow use. (a little general here but you get the point- hyperbole) Crossbows=more tags=more revenue. The state can then spend those extra monies on programs to better manage the great resources is has.
> 
> Second, more tags equals more participation. More people buying tags in and out of state equals more people buying gas, hotels, groceries, gear, fast food, and sales taxes. This is more money in the local economies. Economic conditions aren't stellar right now, so any incremental money is good money.
> 
> Third, we've spent a lot of time researching age categories of participation. As a whole, the hunt/fish category is aging. We are not recruiting or retaining younger hunters/fishers. So, let me take my 8 years old out with a crossbow and let him shoot a turkey. He has a positive experience and enjoys it. He can't draw a bow, and is too small for a shotgun. Crossbows do not have recoil, and are accurate out to 40 yards. I wouldn't have my son shoot more than 30 yards. The same goes with deer. He can hunt with me in the state of Nebraska at age 10. Guess what I'll be hauling around with me? A crossbow. I can set up a ground blind in the archery season (runs from Sept 15-Dec 31). I can have good weather, not freezing temperatures, and not have to deal with the giant crowds of the rifle hunt. I can then show him how to hunt in more controlled conditions and TEACH him about the outdoors in favorable conditions for him to have a positive experience. Do crossbows sound that bad now?
> 
> Lastly, (and opinion/soapbox time) all of this scare talk about crossbows makes me think of people complaining about in-line muzzleloaders a while back. People were 100% against them. It was like a modern rifle. Which is sort of is, except it takes longer to load, you have one shot, limited distance compared to rifles....sound familiar? Same arguments against the crossbow. Similar arguments against rifle scops can be made- makes the game easier right? Technology has advanced and has made a great tool that I will be using for my son. Guess what? My aging dad doesn't want to shoot a deer with a rifle, and doesn't want to march around in Dec with a muzzleloader cause he'd rather sit in my warm pit and shoot geese while drinking hot cocoa. He hasn't hunted deer in 30 years and he wants to go on a crossbow hunt with me. Increased participation people.
> 
> Let's look at the long term picure. The more people we have participating in the outdoors the more money the state gets, the more voice we have in politics and legislature, and the more we can vote with our wallets. We can control our own destiny as outdoorsman, it's time to look to the future and embrace new technology. Because we'll be better off in the long run with it. End rant.


I will agree with all that you said. I fricken aint against a crossbow! BUT last i looked are archery tags in this state sell out. Thats a problem!

So adding crossbows doesn't do jack for the state in added sales in tags! It wont bring in guys with rv's on a spending spree.

Ill say this slowley im fine with crossbows being used on turkeys BUT if they are going to be used on our big game i want to see more % of the archery tag pie.

33% 33% 33% tag allocations! Fair is fair!


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## Moostickles

swbuckmaster said:


> Ive been shooting archery equipment for over 20 years Yes ive shot a crossbow ive even made my own. Ive also shot long bows, recurve bows, carp bows, stick bows ect if its capable of shooting an arrow ive shot them.


What about an Atlatl?


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## silentstalker

Let me clear too. I am not anti Crossbow. As a matter of fact I own one of the better ones on the market. Super accurate, deadly, and capable of shooting with little to NO movement. It is a significant advantage to sit behind a crossbow ****ed and loaded waiting for an animal to step out of the trees. For a bow hunter that is the difference between success and failure as you have to wait to draw till the very last second and hope you don't get busted. For a crossbow hunter you can sit behind that thing all day long and just pull the trigger.

Caddis, 

That was a very well written post. My only debate is that in order to increase hunters you need to increase tags. Right now the archery hunt sells out. There is NO room for growth. I would love to see more tags added to the pie. I would LOVE to see the crossbow allowed in the any weapon hunt for ALL species including turkey. I would rally for support for youth to be able to use them on all hunts. (currently they are allotting more deer permits for youth during the archery hunt). The youth is where the sport will grow and allowing youth to use them is a no brainer. I would not support scopes as that would also give significant advantage over bow hunters.

Move more tags over to archery and you will see little resistance to the idea of crossbows.


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## caddis8

SW,

I never inferred you were anti crossbow. But, in the same breath, I get the impression you're not anti crossbow but it doesn't belong in the archery hunt. So, that's like saying that an in-line MZ is great as long as it's not used for the MZ hunt. It's not the exact same thing, but you get the idea. Not throwing stones at you at all. 

The mentality of new things are good as long as it doesn't affect the way I do things. My counterpoint is simply this. Don't pick up a crossbow. But, allowing others to pick up a crossbow that otherwise wouldn't hunt doesn't seem like a bad thing. We need to get as people to stay in the sport, come back to the sport, and enter the sport as possible if we want our sport to continue the way it is. 

I have been in ammo, shooting, shooting accessories, and big game hunting for a while. I know the trends and I know the research. I've seen crossbows in the archery season work very well in pretty much every state it is implemented. 

The other counter point is that in the midwest a lot of hunting is done out of blinds, shooting houses, over bait (which is legal in Utah I believe- check the regs but I read it a couple weeks ago), and in heavily wooded areas where shooting visibility is limited anyway. In Utah, where a lot of archery is spot and stock, will a crossbow hurt anything? A see a bow as probably better suited for the conditions, but why not allow someone to hunt with a crossbow? I'm an archery guy, and will use my bow whenever and wherever I can. So, I won't be using a crossbow, except with my kids. 

Why would we not want to increase success ratios for hunts? What would be an argument against using a crossbow on an antelope hunt? Most of the time that's done over a whaterhole in a blind. Same with an elk. Why not use a crossbow in a ground blind over a water hole. 

I've got points in Utah still for my dream archery hunt. I'd take rifle, but I'll be 80 by the time I draw. But, if I'm dropping $1500 to hunt an elk in the great state of Utah, I want to have every opportunity I can to harvest a bull. So, I may use a crossbow if it were legal. I eat tag soup quite a bit out here because I haven't seen the one I'm looking for. I'll shoot a doe every once in a while. 

Anyway, I see the crossbow issue as one that has come up before and are widely accepted now. Graphite rods vs. cane rods. Rangefinders. Red dot scopes. Illuminators. Arrow releases.

I think it is for the good of the industry and sport to allow crossbows during archery. It's not for everyone and I get that. 

But why not allow them on the unlimited general archery elk areas? Why not antelope? Why not general season deer? Even with the same amount of tags, but allow it and more out of state hunters will come. Folks don't want to hear it, but it brings a boatload of money into the state directly and indirectly.


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## silentstalker

Caddis you make great points but you have not addressed the fact that tags already sell out. There will not be 1$ of revenue increase. Also the reason we as hunters want lower succes weapons is so that more people can hunt without negatively impacting the resource. If you want higher success stick with the rifle.

You are saying they are not any different than a bow one minute then implying they are a higher success rate the next. Which is it?

Also, why would we want to add the crossbow to the archery hunt just for those unwilling to pick up a bow but who want the easier draw rates of the archery hunt? There is a reason its easier to draw. Its a tougher hunt. Its a tougher time of year. Its supposed to be a less efficient weapon. Those bowhunters who have waited for a tag for a long time have a right to guard their points and tags against those who would change the system mid stream for thier personal benefit. The any weapon hunters already get the lions share of tags both limited and general seasons. Now you want to have more? If so, pick up a bow are my thoughts.

Adding the crossgun to the archery hunt has many different effects on the hunt. Particularly where tag allocation and numbers are concerned. Just another angle to discuss and think about.


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## Renegade

I know the deer tags sell out, but I don't think the archery elk tags do? Is that incorrect? I do know that in Utah, rifle hunters have taken to archery because there are more tags available already, but I don't now if crossbows would increase that or not.


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## DallanC

silentstalker said:


> Caddis you make great points but you have not addressed the fact that tags already sell out. There will not be 1$ of revenue increase.


You are forgetting about app fees, and license sales required to even put in. Alot of revenue comes from unsuccessful applicants.

-DallanC


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## silentstalker

Renegade, the archery elk tags are unlimited so i suppose that would be an area for more tags as well as the app fees and licenses dallan mentioned. Although i think those fees etc would be very minimal at best. My guess is most would move from the any weapon crowd. 

The biggest thing for me is changing the rules and impacting those who have waited a long time to draw a LE tag. This idea has impact on more than just general season hunts. The only way i could support it would be with tag reallocation which will never happen in this state.


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## caddis8

I was under the impression that it was unlimited tags. 

If it isn't unlimited, and tags aren't increasing, which I agree for deer, but there is a healthy elk population, tags could be increased. 

Anyway, you bring up a good point about tag allocation, and management. I can honestly say I don't know. But, my point could be that allowing crossbows during archery seasons could move some rifle hunters to hunt the archery hunt and that could make more movement. 

It is really irrelevant to our discussion, but I think there are already too many trophy units and not enough general areas with more tags. We don't need to do exactly what CO does because there are more bulls in that herd, but Utah probably has better quality trophy class bulls. I can buy an over the counter tag in several units, but I'd feel lucky to shoot a bull over 300". In Utah in several units I wouldn't draw back or pull the trigger on anything less than 340-350" or so. 

Anyhow, IF permits could be increased- and I think they should be in certain areas and species- THEN crossbows should be strongly considered to be used with the archery season.

I said that crossbows have very similar limitations as bows and effective ranges. But, in a ground blind on a rest, I can be rock steady on a crossbow and almost rock steady on a bow. Conversely, on a spot and stalk, a crossbow is heavy and more difficult to shoot off hand. So, I'd take a bow on a spot and stalk. 

At any rate, cross bows should definately be considered as legal for youth and/or seniors. Us middle aged folks simply pay the taxes and the bills, so we're irrelevant right? :lol:


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## silentstalker

I agree with ya caddis on almost every thing you just posted. It is that movement from rifle that i want, but not unless tags were to increase. The current tag numbers are already being filled for deer and ALL LE tags. Also for kids i say go for it!


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## caddis8

SS- I was reading on the archery section just a second ago where someone posted the success rates of archery LE units. I submit that they could increase elk tags in almost all of the LE units AND make crossbows legal and more hunters would have the opportunity to hunt. As it stands now, I doubt I'll get to hunt in the next while. Trouble is I keep buying points because I'm swamped at work during the hunting season, and then there's holiday season and I'm swamped there. So, I want to hunt. I'd likely go with my bow, but at $1200 plus all the money to scout, gas, food, etc. I'm looking at a pretty big chunk of change. I want to have every "arrow in my quiver" available to me to use. 

I have pretty much quit rifle hunting out here. I can buy two tags- one MZ and one archery- and avoid the rifle season altogether. 

This has had some great discussion. I would love to give $ to the state I grew up in. However, with the stream access and tag availability, I give my money to the state directly north. They have it figured out. Wyoming does to, but they are proud of their animals and fish and charge accordingy.


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## Packout

In 2011-- Archery had 17% of the general deer hunting opportunity and 16% of the applicants (those who desired to hunt).

If the UDWR is selling the opportunity to hunt, then the current splits are really close to the demand. If the UDWR wants to protect the buck population and sell the same number of tags then they could save approx 1,000 bucks for every 10,000 rifle/ml tags converted to archery. 

So do we allow people to hunt how they want or do we force them into something they'd rather not do? Which I guess works both ways as SW states he'd rather rifle hunt if the game was more available and we have others who state they archery hunt because they are assured a permit. No real right or wrong answer, but I think the tags should be issued in proportion to the applicants. Thus if a higher percentage of applicants want archery permits then they should get more, but I don't think it is beneficial to hunting if we convert rifle tags to archery just because....

Oh, and if they do allow crossbows then I vote they allow crossbow hunters to be able to use 4x scopes.


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## caddis8

Packout, must scopes sold and used for crossbows are only 4x. Reason being, distance limitations a 4x is plenty. Could someone put a 3x9 on a crossbow? Yes. Why? I have no idea. I dial my 3x9 and my 4.5x14 down to 4-5x when I'm shooting deer.


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## swbuckmaster

I wont and cant agree on this. Not until archers get more tag pie. Utah is not a bow friendly state like the it is back east. In this state archers pretty much get the bone. The last thing they need is rifle guys dropping into archery tags because they think it will be easier packing a crossbow. It is easier! If it wasnt you wouldnt be using the little girl and the old man card. What would all these poor people that would never pick up a bow and now basically get a handicap pass to hunt with a crossbow do to the over all archery draw odds? What does this do to my archery odds? What does it do to my kids archery odds? It jacks them! My kids are putting in the time with a bow. They shoot year round they are girls and they dont have a problem pulling 40 + lbs. The youngest is 9 and only weighs 45 lbs but guess what she can pull 35 lbs. If my girls can do it any one can. If your kids want to put in the time with a bow then great they earned the tag. If your handicap no problem guess what you can get a crossbow tag already.

All big game are hard tags to draw in utah. If utah were a more archery friendly state and issued more archery tags more game would be saved and quality would go up. Hunters packing crossbows or bows simply dont kill the quality out of an area like a rifle does. This is a fact and the Wasatch front proves it every year. However you cant just issue more archery tags without adjusting tags from another pool. Le archers elk success stats are below 25% on quite a few units in utah. Le elk rifle success is hovering close to 90%. To me this means if utah wanted to take a 1000 rifle tags and add 2500 or 3000 crossbow tags. These rifle guys could switch if they wanted. Win win for all. Guess what it aint going to happen so im fine with all these rich RV driving crossbow guys taking their crossbows to another state. Im also fine with crossbow kids who have xbox calluses on their fingers not being able to archery hunt.


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## proutdoors

Archers can only get more "tag pie" when the number of would-be archers increase! It is inane to expect "tag pie" to increase first. By widening the archery pool to include more youth, more novice, more 'seasoned', and more physically limited hunters, the odds of seeing a higher percentage of over-all permits goes up. Basic economics!!


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## swbuckmaster

Looks like my phone was behind the conversation some how and silentstalker already addressed my thoughts above. I would have just deleted my post but it took me 30 minutes to type it on my phone lol.


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## swbuckmaster

caddis8 said:


> Packout, must scopes sold and used for crossbows are only 4x. Reason being, distance limitations a 4x is plenty. Could someone put a 3x9 on a crossbow? Yes. Why? I have no idea. I dial my 3x9 and my 4.5x14 down to 4-5x when I'm shooting deer.


In utah i dint think a crossbow can use a power scope larger than a scope for a muzzleloader scope. I believe this is open sites or 1 power. If im incorrect then the laws need to be changed so bows can use scopes or lenses or the law needs to be changed so crossbows cant use more power scope then what is currently allowed on the muzzleloader.


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## adamsoa

Scott, I know that your issue is more about adding hunters to the archery draw pool than it is about a dislike of crossbows. How to get more tags into the pools is the question. 
If the state allowed crossbows into the archery hunts, would there be a drastic shift of people into the archery hunts?
I don't know. There is currently some now but I don't think that hunters by the thousands would be beating their rifles into plow shares to go buy a crossbow. There would definitely be some bleed over of people who wanted to try a crossbow just because. There would also be some from the younger and older crowd. 
I don't think that you would see the tectonic shifts in the odds that you are worried about. Places like Wyoming still have archery hunts. They are not over run with crossbow hunters behind every tree.

I think that a good way to see more about the desire for crossbows and their effectiveness in Utah would be the following:

1. Allow them for the general archery elk hunt. There's no limit for these tags so no one is loosing. I know that some will say that this will be the end of the general archery elk hunt. But seriously do they think this will magically draw a huge number of rifle/ml elk hunters away from their guns just to hunt with the crossbow. There will be some, and more than likely a few archery guys that want to give it a try. But its not like there will be a crossbow behind every tree, nor would it flood the hunt. Most of the rifle hunters I know wouldn't even care.

2. Allow crossbows on the Turkey, Bear and Cougar hunts. Once again there is no reason not to allow them for these hunts. There isn't a dedicated allotment for archers in these hunts.

Neither of these options would effect the archery tag numbers available nor would they effect your ability to draw tags. Hopefully they would promote more interest in archery hunting and give you a stronger base to gain more archery tags.

3. Allow Crossbows for youth under 18 and anyone over 60 for the general hunts. Have some sort of mandatory reporting of crossbows and look at the usage. Record the success rates. If it were for General only and on a temporary basis it would give a reasonable look at what they are for Utah.

These recommendations, especially the first two wont have any effect at all on your ability to draw a tag. They will give Utah a good idea about the desire for use and the effect of crossbows. If the desire is high then you have a stronger argument to push for more archery tags because you could show that there is a desire for crossbows which would equal more archery in general is there.


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## caddis8

SW, 
I'm not sure where to start. You didn't make the same points as SS. In your post, you inferred that crossbows hunters are a) lazy, b) rich, c) drive RVs, d) have kids that would rather play Xbox than put in work to learn archery rather than learn a cross bow. 

Those are some pretty unflattering assertions to me personally. Because, none of the above assertions are true, and none of them are true for the folks I work and hunt with. We all have kids. Have you ever tried to shoot a turkey with a bow? It's like trying to shoot an balloon on a pole flopping around in the wind. I am teaching my kid archery. But that belongs on the range for the time being because he's not quite ready. He's 7 now and could be ready by age 9, but he's not and that will be my call. Which I'm sure you agree with. 

I would rather my kid shoot a crossbow now because I can do a little more to make sure he has a positive experience and wants to continue. I take a lot of new hunters out and I'll do the same thing. It doesn't matter if it's an adult, a kid, or an old man. I want to promote the outdoors and hunting so that more people do it. It's fairly simple. 

Would you take your kid and load up some 2 oz 3 1/2" mags for your 12 guage and go goose hunting and say, here you go, have at it? I'll introduce a 20 ga first and let them get used to that and then introduce the 12 ga when he's ready. It's the same principle. 

You are correct that Utah MZ rules state that a 1 power scope or red dot is legal. CO has iron sights only, NE has any scope, and Kansas is pretty close to the same. MT doesn't have a MZ season, ID is percussion cap and no 209 primer, as well as most of the northwest. 

I remember a couple years ago when the rule changed in Nebraska from essentially the same rules as UT to having any scope. Guess what? Nothing changed. People were concerned it was an unfair advantage. It wasn't and it isn't. Same distance restrictions, same shooting style, different optics. 

I'm all about opportunity. I'd love to draw a coveted archery tag. I moved out of state with 3 points and I'm still a ways out because certain years I couldn't afford or make the trip so I didn't put in. I'm in the bottom to the middle of the pack to draw out and hunt. When everything is said and done I'll probably be into it $4k to hunt elk in Utah. 

Do I wish there were more tags? Absolutely. I think we can both agree that the deer herd needs help and additional tags shouldn't be given. I don't necessarily think that a crossbow will help or hinder success because there are a lot of variables to success. I've had very successful hunts and didn't punch the tag. I'll always remember when I took my then 3 year old and on the way out I asked him what his favorite part was. His answer "When you carried me." That's enough to make a grown man cry. 

The reason I make that point is to show you that without the tag, there isn't the opportunity. I'll use any technology available to allow a positive experience to whoever I take out in the field for the first time or for the first time in a long time. 

We can't assume that everyone lives the same lifestyle we love. I spend a lot of time in the field. It's my job. It's also my job to understand the market (Big Game Hunting including tree stands, ground blinds, calls, decoys, etc.) and its trends. It's my job to cater to all levels of the sporting spectrum. If we don't ge more people into the sport, then we will have a harder time enjoying our sport the way we know it. Crossbows and the supporting market are reversing a long downward trend. Recognize that as an opportunity to put more people in the field, lower costs, and more revenue into the state to manage and increase tags and opportunity. 

Times are changing. I think it's for the best on this one.


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## swbuckmaster

caddis8 said:


> SW,
> I'm not sure where to start. You didn't make the same points as SS. In your post, you inferred that crossbows hunters are a) lazy, b) rich, c) drive RVs, d) have kids that would rather play Xbox than put in work to learn archery rather than learn a cross bow.


Caddis sorry you were the first one who brought money into this and how crossbows hunters wont come to utah to spend their money. I also believe you were the one who said there are kids or old folks who cant pull back a bow. Sorry if a kid cant pull back the required minimum they haven't worked at it. Like i said my girls are as small as girls come. My 9 year old is wearing 6 year old clothes and weighs 42 lbs. She is in the 1% height and weight for her age. She shoots target bows right now at 35 lbs. She will most defiantly be pulling the minimum 40 lbs when she is old enough to hunt big game at 12. Shes also right handed left eye dominate pulling and shooting her bow left handed. Id say shes pretty handicapped. My 12 year old shoots targets with over 40 lbs and has been doing this for a year already. 
Both of these girls could shoot a monkey, balloon, or turkey out of a blind with a bow.

Thats enough of my kids. I only use them as an example because people want to use some excuse why kids cant some how shoot a bow and how their handicaped. This is one if your main points for allowing them. I have to ask why cant these kids do it. I know that answer because i help coach 40-80 kids every friday year round. Most of these kids are different every week. I dare say i see 500-1000 new archers ever year.

As for shooting turkeys with a crossbow. There really is no need in my mind because a kid can use a 20 guage shot gun at a pretty early age with no problem. Again who cares with turkey id let anyone and everyone shoot a bird with a crossbow. Big game no i agree with what i said and what SS said and gave my reasons.

I will disagree with one of my best buds adamsoa on this and ill disagree with caddis and the rest. Its nothing personal!


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## caddis8

SW, you have your opinion, I have mine. Nothing personal in that.

I never said my kid _couldn't_ draw back a bow. I'm trying to get a positive experience. It's all up to personal preference. It has worked very well out here, and pretty much every state crossbows have been legal. I don't see why it wouldn't work there.

Yes, money is part of the equation. But money doesn't mean lazy hunters from out of state driving RVs. There's a difference. A big difference. I've helped a lot of folks when I have to work the retail store (not my idea of a good time) get outfitted with what they need. Some guys are really loaded, but a lot of those guys hire a guide. So, they'll fly and land somewhere. The truly lazy ones show up and shoot the deer or elk the guide has for them. They walk off without doing more than pull the trigger. I would say that is less than 5% of people I deal with.

Another 5% is a bunch of dirt clods and they're miserable to deal with. I don't like helping those guys because they're not satisfied and not grateful.

The rest of the 90% that I generally deal with are guys not dissimilar from me or you. Normal, hard working guys that want to go hunt. Where I deer hunt there is a family that comes down from Wisconsin every year to hunt deer. I used to talk to them when I hunted the rifle hunt out here. They come out here because a dad gets to spend a couple days driving with his grown up or growing up boys. They always shoot deer and most of them aren't trophies. A meet a lot of folks coming from Minnesota and Michigan to hunt elk in Colorado. They buy what they need, pack what they have, and plan for a great hunt. I always wish them good luck and offer them what little advice I can give them. It usually brings a smile to my face to have them so excited to hunt the great Rocky Mountains. A lot of them keep coming back. They drive regular trucks with a trailer and all the gear they need and plan on having a great time. I'm guessing most do.

We have to continue to let hunting be a social experience, give people opportunity to harvest and animal, and give them a positive experience when they go out.

That doesn't have a lot to do with a crossbow. Except, if a hunter- non-resident or resident- can go out and use a crossbow, have a great experience, have a chance to harvest an animal, then we're all better off. They'll keep coming back. A lot of folks don't know what Utah has to offer, and a lot of Utahns don't know how good you have it with abundant public access and good numbers of huntable animals.

Nebraska is 95% privately owned. I have to pay a lease to hunt waterfowl. I know some folks to let me hunt pheasants. And I have to drive 3 hours to hunt public land. I shot an elk when I was 14 about 5 miles from my folks' place.

I'd love to be able to show my son that. But, it's unlikely that I can unless we get more peope- deserving people I might add- through the system.

we have the same goals, but maybe not the same vision on how to get there.


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## adamsoa

No problem with the disagreement---But why the disagreement on the general archery elk---not limited entry, just general?


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## swbuckmaster

Andy you know its the camel nose theory. You know for a fact how the utah system works and how the archer gets the bone here. You also know we both have been getting the bone by rifle guys bailing. It has personally affected our big game draw odds for the last several years. So to try and tell me it wont happen more isnt going to fly with me. We both know it will change the draw dynamics here.

The thing i cant stand and gets me the most is how out one side of a pro crossbows mouth is how a crossbow isnt any more successful then than a regular bow. How it wont extend an archers range, ect. Then out the other side of their mouth argue a crossbow only helps the weak, small, old, and handicaped. I have to ask the question how gullible do you think i am? You guys can call me selfish if you want. I am on this issue. I know for a fact most pro crossbow guys are rifle hunters they simply dont want to put the effort into a bow and they know how to play the odds here. 

I only say make the permits more even first and you can shoot what ever you want. I also know the argument Pro put up about supply demand economics. I can agree with this to a point but the skeptic in me says im only getting dooped, this is utah.

My kids and I have spent a heck of alot time behind a bow to increase our odds of enjoying easier draw odds and increasing our chances at tagging out with a bow then to allow an easy pass through the system. To say we are heavily invested would be an understatment. I have to protect that investment.


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## adamsoa

I know that we've had this debate before, and that we don't agree. Its fun to debate though, and other than the youth thing I don't really have that much of a dog in the show. 
I just don't think it will be that big of an issue. 
I know that it will change the odds on some of the LE stuff, but I don't think that it will be all that much. I've looked at the research from a lot of different state's. And yes I know that they aren't Utah. 

Wyoming has about 10-15% of their overall archers who shoot crossbows. It usually fluxuates because they feel that some archers go back and forth. Some states have quite a bit higher.

This part is definitely age related though----Utah and every other state are loosing their mature Archers. National statistics--from many different states show that archers take a huge decline starting in the mid 40's. There are almost none left by their 60's. I said almost none---I know everyone knows an arrow slinger who goes to the grave with a stick in his hand.

I know that some may say that's a good thing. It can only help my odds, or if I cant hunt with my bow I don't want to hunt like that anymore. Others say that when you're times over you should pick up something like golf. But in many states the inclusion of crossbows keeps archers hunting well into the 70's.

I'm not making the assertion that crossbows would keep everyone hunting forever. The fact is that you're loosing mature hunters--many starting in their 40's. Crossbow inclusion would help to stem a little of that flow.

I know we may have a disagreement on this last statement. But my last thought is that its a myth that archers practice/train more to get the early season. It takes no more effort to get a modern compound bow ready than it does to get someone shooting a crossbow. 
You'll notice that I said ready not proficient. There are NO PRACTICE REQUIREMENTS to get a bow tag. Archery shops do the majority of their business for the ENTIRE YEAR the couple of weeks leading up to the bow hunt. You know as well as I do that the majority of bow hunters dust off their bow the week or two before the hunt starts whether that is good or bad just that its how things work.
How many times have we gone out with friends who missed deer after deer or made a crap shot because they didn't practice. Remember when Brant had a fist full of arrows he picked up at the pawn shop and no two were alike? You and I along with most of the guys on this forum are the exceptions to the rule. We live this stuff year round. Its eat sleep and piss hunting and fishing. We're lucky that our wives are saints and tolerate it as well as they do.
And remember we are talking overall. I know that there are dedicated archers who put the practice and effort in all year long. But that's just not true for the majority. I'm not just picking on archers here, ML and Rifle are the same. Most of the archery and firearms equipment doesn't see the light of day outside of the couple of week window surrounding the hunts.
So if its stated that crossbows are too easy and that they take the effort out of learning the weapon, where are the standards that state that you have to practice so much each year? How many archers are meeting this standard to shoot this much. I think that almost anyone that can pull back a bow (thought we've already discussed that for the youth and more mature hunters the pull back part can be difficult) could learn to shoot proficiently at 20 yards within an hour or so using modern sights. By proficiently I mean paper plate stuff. Many of these guys are the hunters are the ones out flinging arrows on the hunts.
There are no standards. It comes down to flinging an arrow at an animal. Arrows are limited in what they can do and how they can shoot.

Like I said, I know that we have fundamental differences in opinion on this subject and we'll go around and around. But I do think this is a valid argument.

Have a good one.


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## swbuckmaster

This debate is done on my part. Its just circle jerking right now. I disagree with everything you have said and wont be changing my mind. As it sits right now i never want to see crossbows legal. I dont want my odds jacked on the best case scenario even 15%. I know it will jack them even more. At some point i could care less about some old guy out packing a bow. Im 40 and already am getting sick of hitting the hills like a mad man. Old guys dropping out of archery isnt all because they cant pull a bow back. Most old guys i know could care less if they have a tag. They would rather see someone else do all the work and enjoy seeing their success its just how the cycle of life goes.


The only question i have left is do you think it should be legal to drive around with your crossbow ****ed?


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## adamsoa

Nope. You cant drive around with a ****ed crossbow. Nor should you. Its not safe. Without the arrow you could still dryfire.


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## swbuckmaster

O thank goodness you had me worried your physical disorder was turning into a mental disorder. Lol

That was a joke! :smile:


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## adamsoa

that's still under debate.


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## DallanC

adamsoa said:


> Nope. You cant drive around with a ****ed crossbow. Nor should you. Its not safe. Without the arrow you could still dryfire.


What about if you have a ccw? :twisted:

-DallanC


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## adamsoa

My 10mm wont take my fingers off if i reach back for it.


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