# Don't Tease Us!



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Here is a quick little article that sure has generated quite the buzz around the forum world....

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gu...r-introduce-world's-fastest-rimfire-cartridge


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

"If history is any guide..."

To me, that says .20 caliber.

If so...
In a way, I think it's a complete waste, and destined to fail. ...there are too many WMRs and HMRs out there, already.

But, at the same time, my brother and I were discussing the 5mm Remington Magnum, the other day. We both consider the 5mm Rem to be absolutely the best-performing rimfire cartridge released in the last 100 years. It just never caught on well, ammunition is difficult to find (and expensive), there's really only one bullet choice easily obtained, and nearly no one chambers a rifle for it any more.

My prediction:
Bottleneck cartridge in .20 caliber.
Slightly larger case diameter than .22 WMR (say .258"). (As a bi-product, also a slightly larger rim diameter.)
Similar OAL to .22 WMR and .17 HMR (1.350"), but with the shoulder farther forward than .17 HMR.
Thick case walls.
First load to hit the market: 25 gr Solid Copper bullets at 3,000+ fps. 
Next load: 30-32 gr HPs at 2,850 fps.

And... a very distant possibility (don't laugh too hard):
A .14 caliber cartridge that differs only minimally from .22 WMR and .17 HMR. ...again, with a solid copper projectile as the first load released.

That's what _I_ would do, anyway...


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

.20 was my guess too.

The 5mm is awesome. Too bad you cant just swap barrels from a 22 WMR and shoot the 5mm, but the case diameter is different so you would need to do bolt work too


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Now that sounds like a really stupid idea to me. Exactly where is the market for rounds that are only a little faster than the many loads that are currently available. We already have some great .17's and .20's and with the hot .22 WMR's loadings out there from Rem and CCI, I simply don't see the market, and what new could it possibly bring to the shooter. (I guess it could be a good reason to buy a new gun though..."honey, I don't have one of these"   )


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

The key to its success will lie in what, exactly, these two statements are actually referring to:


> The new round is going to be the fastest rimfire round available by quite a margin.


If it's 100 fps or even 150 fps faster, it won't get too much attention.
But, if they can go from the .17 HMR's ~2,500 fps to, say, 3,000 fps... it will be a featured topic on every forum and blog, and in every magazine. Even 2,800 fps would get it some serious attention.



> One gun maker has already signed up to chamber the cartridge and by the end of 2013, I expect at least two more to jump on the bandwagon.


That's a bit of a strange statement, considering Winchester shouldn't have to "sign up" to produce a cartridge sharing its name. But... Winchester Ammunition (owned by Olin) is not affiliated with Winchester Repeating Arms (which is owned by FN). Winchester is unlikely to offer a firearm for the new cartridge, unless they modify the 1892. Browning is only loosely affiliated, and doesn't often jump on new cartridge introductions. So, the T-bolt is unlikely to be a candidate.

That leaves the usual suspects: Savage. Ruger. CZ. Remington/Marlin.
Savage is pretty much guaranteed to jump in with 3-5 models.
Ruger is pretty much guaranteed to offer at least a 77/22 variant. - The 77/20?
The Marlin XT rifles will be offered in the new cartridge, if they can handle the chamber pressure.
CZ will come along, shortly, with select models in the 450 series chambered for the cartridge.
Remington is still trying to recover from bad PR over the consolidation of their production facilities and the Marlin buyout. So, their involvement will be: A) nonexistent. Or, B) massive. It all depends on the mood of their investors. A Remington-labeled (slightly "refined") Marlin XT variant might be a possibility.

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An aside:

BPturkeys, the 'rimfire magnum' market is absolutely dominated by CCI.
The breakdown looks like this:
CCI produces: CCI, Federal, Remington, Fiocchi (plastic box), Hornady, Speer, and Winchester (v-max) for .22 WMR; ALL US-made .17 HMR; and the HP .22 WRF load for Winchester.
Winchester produces: Winchester .22 WRF soft point, and a few .22 WMR loads.
ArmsCor produces: Fiocchi (paper box), ArmsCor, and S&B (small runs and rarely imported) in .22 WMR.
Remington makes nothing for the 'rimfire magnum' market. That's why they had to contract with Centurion (2006?), when they wanted to put their name back on a few million rounds of 5mm Rem Mag.

Basically, if you aren't shooting ArmsCor or non-'tipped' Winchester loads, it's CCI ammo (regardless of the type or color of the box).
There are exceptions (such as Winchester running a bunch of Remington .22 WMR a few years ago, because CCI didn't have the capacity), but the above list is the general state of "rimfire magnum" production.

The one wildcard I haven't figured out yet, is BVAC, in Montana. They claim to be "manufacturing" .22 WMR ammo, but I haven't been able to get my hands on any. I don't know if they're repackaging contract ammo (likely CCI), truly manufacturing it, or just loading some one else's primed hulls.

All of that being said....
I think Winchester/Olin is trying to buy a share of the 'rimfire magnum' market with this new cartridge - hoping all production will be handled by them - as CCI did with the .17 HMR explosion.

Sorry about the long post.


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

Alright. So... It's time to see how my predictions turned out:

Bottleneck cartridge in .20 caliber. *Check on bottleneck. Fail on .20 caliber.*

Slightly larger case diameter than .22 WMR (say .258"). (As a bi-product, also a slightly larger rim diameter.) *Check on larger. Fail on the diameter - although, one of my brothers predicted .27 caliber blanks being the starting point for the cartridge.*

Similar OAL to .22 WMR and .17 HMR (1.350"), but with the shoulder farther forward than .17 HMR. *Total failure. They went more for .22 Hornet.*

Thick case walls. *Check.*

First load to hit the market: 25 gr Solid Copper bullets at 3,000+ fps. *Fail on the weight. Check on the velocity.*

Next load: 30-32 gr HPs at 2,850 fps. *Double fail.*

Savage is pretty much guaranteed to jump in with 3-5 models. *Check on Savage. Possible failure on the model count, due to the longer OAL. Also no information about other rifles, yet. - we'll see.*
...

I still stand by this:


> I think Winchester/Olin is trying to buy a share of the 'rimfire magnum' market with this new cartridge - hoping all production will be handled by them - as CCI did with the .17 HMR explosion.


In addition, they might be trying to take a bite out of Hornady's .17 Hornet market. Perhaps they let us have that early teaser, and pushed this out early, in order to grab some attention before the SHOT Show.


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