# Ticket at Strawberry - PLEASE HELP!



## BullyHunter

Hey!

Quick question for all you knowledgeable folks out there. So a few weeks back I was fishing up at Strawberry on the Soldier Creek side. I pulled up to the lake on an established dirt road, and saw 4 other cars parked 30 feet off the road, right by the lake. I parked amongst them all, thought nothing of it, and started fishing with my family. 5 hours later all the other cars had left, and I was the only one there. A fish cop came by and gave me a ticket, saying it was my responsibility to know what roads were legit, and which were not. I just got word from the court that the ticket is $280!
I've called all around to the DNR, Forest Service, everyone, looking for more information on how the law or statue reads in regards to this situation. However, no one has been able to point me to any actual statute, regulations, or rules.

Does anyone on here have any experience with this law? Does anyone know where I can find more information on it? I want to fight this ticket, because I don't think it was my responsibility to know that a tracked out road was allegedly not navigable. You and I both know there are thousands of backroads in this state that are driven on every day, that are not necessarily published roads. Oftentimes you see signs posted on a new backroad, advising that you cannot drive on it. However, in my case, there was no signage whatsoever, only obvious tracks of pleny of vehicles having driven this path, not to mention the 4 other cars around me when I parked. 

Please help! Anyone know of statue or codes written about this? How would you fight this one? What arguments would you make?


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## HunterDavid

What is the code number on the citation?


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## twinkielk15

That bites. I get nervous every time I leave my vehicle that I'm going to get a ticket. So for I've been lucky. I hope you can get this one figured out.


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## BullyHunter

HunterDavid said:


> What is the code number on the citation?


There actually ISN'T a code number on the citation. That field was left completely blank. Does this mean that there is no code that pertains to this infraction, or she just totally missed it? If she missed it, is that a good argument to avoid the fine?


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## Mavis13

I've always been bothered by someone getting a ticket for something like this when simple education is all that's needed. It's reflects poorly on the officer, the department, the governing body and all parties involved.


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## Cooky

Mavis13 said:


> I've always been bothered by someone getting a ticket for something like this when simple education is all that's needed. It's reflects poorly on the officer, the department, the governing body and all parties involved.


It depends on whether the goal is to protect the area from erosion etc. started by vehicle traffic or to generate revenue by writing tickets.

Side question...is the shoreline privately owned?


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## Skally

They should at least put up a " No Vehicles" sign if they dont want people driving down there. Seems like a simple solution to me.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool

It is YOUR responsibility to know whether you are driving on a closed road or not, just like it is your responsibility to know whether you are on private property or not. Should you have gotten a ticket? I don't know, maybe. How did you treat the officer? Did you leave her reason to believe you would learn your lesson by receiving a warning or did you play the "its not my responsibility to know" card for her as well? Most, won't blanket all, officers will issue a warning if they think that you are learning your lesson by a warning. Unfortunately, there are also a few who see in black and white and nothing else, they're pricks most of the time and don't care. As far as the code goes there are different ones that could apply I'm not sure which was used, you were kind of vague. Did you get cited for driving on a closed road? Private Property? What did the citation say? As far as fighting it, you have a 80/20 chance. 80% your gonna lose, 20% your gonna win. I would call the prosecutor and see if you can work out a deal with him/her. That is probably your best option. See if they will give you a plea in abeyance and reduce the fine. Thats what I would do if I were you. If you take it to court and lose youre gonna pay at minimum the $280 and whatever court fees are involved, may or may not be included in the $280. It does blow that you got a ticket when you thought you were good, but the courts do not rule on thinking you were good, they rule on statutes and they clearly say it is the operators responsibility to know whether or not they are on a closed road, regardless.


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## martymcfly73

The marine speaks the truth. It sucks but it's your responsibility to know. I see people on those roads all the time.


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## RangerJoe

I'd call the court back and find out what the Statute is. If they can tell you the fine, they can tell you the Statute. Then you can see if it's worth fighting.


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## Skally

since it is your responsibility to know. Where can you find this info is it readily available? How are you supposed to know if you cant find the info?


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## goofy elk

Travel maps are avalible for all BLM and forest service districs ...

And YES, They are being enforced..

Along with camping restrictions, some districs are enforcing them to the
letter of the law. In most cases, camps can not be unatteded for 24 hrs,
or stay in one area more than 16 days.


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## BullyHunter

*Follow-up Q's*

I have a few concerns with the logic that you are supposed to know where you can/cannot drive. First, I have been an outdoorsman in this state for 15 years, have bought a fishing license, state parks pass, and national parks pass for 15 years. Never have I seen anything about knowing which roads you can and cannot drive on. I have used common sense, and if the road is obviously a road with years of traffic on it, then I drive on it and assume I'm fine. In the Uintas especially, there are plenty of backroads that have been around for probably 30 years, and they show up nowhere on a map.

And to answer some of your questions, yes, I treated her with complete respect. And as someone who has complete respect for the outdoors, and is always picking up garbage like crazy, it's tough to see this happen.

Anyone have any idea if the citation code number was not filled in, if I have any angle whatsoever with the judge? I also heard from the court that you can plead no-contest, and talk to the judge right then and there. Or, you can plead not-guilty and get a follow up court date with the prosecutor present. Anyone have any experience as to which is better, meaning who will be more likely to hear my case (judge vs. prosecutor)? My court date is for 7/8 at the court in Heber.

Thanks guys! Great info thus far!


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## USMARINEhuntinfool

You can have as many concerns with the logic you like, unfortunately that is the law. I would meet with the prosecutor, thats what they are there for and they are usually your best option. They are the one that presents the case to the judge, they make the final decision on what charges are brought before the court and what the terms are, in regards to deals etc. where as the judge is the one who determines the decision or verdict after the case has been presented. The judge can't offer you and "deals". They can rule in your favor but then you have to go through the whole shebang, and honestly I don't think your odds are good, at all, of winning this in court. Not having the statute on the citation doesn't really mean much, as long as there is the plain text (a description of the code) so that the prosecutor can file the charges accordingly. Like I said, I'd go talk to the prosecutor and tell him it was a mistake, you didn't mean to break the law, and you learned your lesson and hope that he/she will work with you. Glad you treated her with respect, sorry she wasn't more understanding. Hope this info helps, probably not exactly what you were hoping for. Good luck.


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## BullyHunter

Understood. Thanks for all of your help! Let me know if anything else comes to mind. I'll let you guys know what happens, just for future reference on this board.

Thanks!


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## Dunkem

Was this area close to the ramp?,Or down further?


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## Kingfisher

many years back, we were hunting west of tabiona. had our maps that the usfs had kindly faxed us, so marginal quality. we came down a trail to the parking lot to find ricky ranger checking guns. we were clean but the folk in front were not, took a lot of time to process them and give tickets. finally got to us and informed us that we came down a 1/2 mile section of trail where atvs were not allowed. we promptly pulled out our usfs maps and showed him it was marked on the map as atv legal. he pulled out his more detailed map and said, no its not. trucks and jeeps but no atv's. we said, you people faxed us this just 2 days ago. he basically said tuff beans. heres your ticket. as you may assume, we were just a bit more than ticked off. nicely, he only issued one ticket, not one to each of us. we went to court and LOST. the judge said - your responsibility to know in spite of the fact that the enforcing agency gave you bad data.

you can go to court. you will lose.
good luck.


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## PBH

Wow. Lot's of people wondering where they can, and cannot drive on our National Forests. You know, they have this slogan and program callse "Know before you go". It makes sense. As stewards of our natural resources, we really should "know before we go".

If you don't know, you should find out. This is where I would start:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/uwcnf

From that site I quickly found links that provided information such as the following:


Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest said:


> * Off Highway Vehicles/Motorized Vehicle Use Maps*
> 
> A Motorized Vehicle Use Map is legal documentation displaying the roads and trails that are open to public motor vehicle use. If a road or trail does not appear on the map it means that it is not open to public vehicular use...


I then found a nice map to show me the roads that are open:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5414976.pdf

I wonder if you guys could point out (on the map) which road you were on that you got the ticket?


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## Kevin D

Explain your side of the story to the judge and he may be lenient with you. Legally you were in the wrong, your best strategy now would be to minimize the damage. Attitude is everything.


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## RichardClarke

I'm not going to play judge, jury or prosecutor in this matter. But the heartburn I have over this is why are DWR officers at Strawberry concerning themselves with giving tickets for United States Forest Service infractions??? With law enforcement it is all about the severity of non-compliance and priorities. A police officer could sit around all day and write nothing but improper lane violations, driver did not allow 3 seconds before signaling, etc. etc. But if they do that they are taking away from their available time to enforce someone ripping through going 50 mph in a school zone. In the big picture, what is more important petty infractions or endangering school children? You can't tell me while this woman DWR fish cop was fretting over a federal statute that there weren't fish over the slot being taken, cutthroat being possessed instead of rainbows, people fishing without a license, people with more than their limit of fish, etc. etc. Again it was easy for the DWR fish cop to sit on her arse drive around in a state vehicle and fret over a federal issue. If the Forest Service roads are having such a non-compliance problem at Strawberry she should have referred the issue to a Forest Service Law Enforcement officer and stuck to her job at hand which is patrolling Strawberry reservoir for fishing and boating violations. Do we really want our DWR fish cops at Strawberry spending their time worrying about what dirt someone parks their vehicle on???


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## PBH

RichardClarke said:


> Do we really want our DWR fish cops at Strawberry spending their time worrying about what dirt someone parks their vehicle on???


Personally, I do.

Why? Because I see off-road abuse as a serious problem in Utah. Because I understand what erosion can do to our fisheries.

What we don't know is how serious of a problem driving on closed roads around Strawberry is. Obviously, according to the original poster, this particular road was a popluar one, with numerous vehicles using it. So, yes. I do want someone (DWR, Forest Service, Sheriff, BLM) enforcing those rules. It is important.

Whether or not the LEO is a male/female makes no difference to me either.

I'm still curious what road this was on, and whether or not it was on the map. I just don't see that the original poster has an argument. Sounds to me like they were on a closed road. A ticket was warranted. Pay the fine, learn your lesson, know before you go.

why is it that in today's world we take no responsibility?? It's always the cop's fault, the teacher's fault, the boss's fault......It's NEVER our own fault. Take some responsibility fellas.


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## RichardClarke

Last year I was fishing a lake in the Boulders. It is supposed to be totally roadless. But two ATV's got back to the lake via an illegal trail. A couple of days after that I ran into a DWR fish cop at Posey Lake. I told him about the ATV issue I witness a few days before, his response was 'we worry about fish and game violations in the Boulders and we worry about marijuana grows, but roads are for the Forest Service to deal with'. 
But back to the issue at hand with the guy at Strawberry. No way is erosion a problem there and secondly no way is policing roads more important for the DWR than enforcing the fishing regulations at Strawberry. It was an easy ticket for the chick fish cop to write. I am with PBH I feel very strongly roads should be enforced but it is funny how on the Boulder it isn't a priority for the DWR, but somehow it is a priority at Strawberry. Actually it should be the opposite.


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## elkfromabove

It's ironic that this should happen while the state of Utah is currently fighting several Federal agencies for enforcing state laws (speeding, seat belts) on federal lands! I guess some LEO's (or agencies) consider themselves generic in authority. Or is it the "who owns the roads?/what constitutes a road?" issue(s)? I know of a "road" that has been there for ions which has been maintained by heavy equipment for most of those years which has now been gated because it isn't listed as a "road" by the Forest Service, while several newer unused logging "roads" across the paved state highway are still open, but are not on the open roads map. Additionally, you get conflicting answers to your questions when you ask different offices of the same agency or even different persons in the same office.

This kind of ticket is rather vague and is probably more of a "quota" ticket which the officer figured wouldn't be challenged. I once served on a county court jury that convicted a college student of a federal crime (counterfeiting) simply because (we were told) the amount of money involved and the limited number of attempts to pass the counterfeit bills didn't justify a federal court trial. Go figure!

Good luck with your court appearence. Personally, I think I would, at least, request a hearing.


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## RichardClarke

You are right it is ironic. Utah politicians have all kinds of heartburn with federal law enforcement within our state. But with this scenario; we have a Utah law enforcement officer patrolling federal lands, and in the meantime a blue ribbon Utah fishery (Strawberry) isn't getting the proper amount of enforcement presence because a Utah DWR fish cop that is supposed to be patrolling the reservoir is fretting over federal roads. Definitely ironic.


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## BullyHunter

*Update*

So check this out, I pled not-guilty to the judge a few weeks back, and I have my appointment with the prosecutor next week. I was reviewing the documents in preparation for my appointment, and noticed that I'm being charged with a MISDEMEANOR! So, I parked amongst 4 other cars on what appeared to be a legit road. The other 4 cars left, and my kids and I gathered an entire bag full of garbage that the others had left. I then get a ticket with no code number written on it at all, for "driving off road". If the prosecutor doesn't lower the charge, I will have a CRIMINAL RECORD. I can't believe this, totally frustrating. A good friend of mine is a 5 term District Attorney in CA, and he thinks this is totally bogus. He said that in his jurisdiction, he used to let his fish cops write tickets for this kind of thing, but he took that away from them because they would issue so many bogus tickets like this.

My appointment is next week, so hopefully the Prosecutor is reasonable enough to understand what really happened, and know that there is no way I should have a misdemeanor for this.


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## stablebuck

I'd say you should be able to work something out with the district attorney if you don't have anything else on your record. You just may have to give something else up instead...like pick up trash on the side of the road for a couple months. Small price to pay to keep from having a "record".


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## Kevin D

BullyHunter said:


> .... I was reviewing the documents in preparation for my appointment, and noticed that I'm being charged with a MISDEMEANOR!


I'm not an attorney or anything but I believe a misdemeanor is the lesser of all classes of unlawful activities. Jaywalking is a misdemeanor as is speeding and spitting on the sidewalk in some jurisdictions. What is more relevant is the classification of misdemeanor, either A, B, or C.


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## martymcfly73

Kevin D said:


> I'm not an attorney or anything but I believe a misdemeanor is the lesser of all classes of unlawful activities. Jaywalking is a misdemeanor as is speeding and spitting on the sidewalk in some jurisdictions. What is more relevant is the classification of misdemeanor, either A, B, or C.


An infraction is the lesser. Most traffic offenses are infractions.


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## Dodger

Take your advice from lawyers, not cops. I respect the jobs cops have to do but cops are not your friends. 

What court are you in? My guess is that because it is national forest, any local court (Heber/Duchesne, whatever) has no jurisdiction to even hear the case.) If they do, they have to admit it is a state road to get jurisdiction. But if they have to admit it is a state road, they have to admit it is a road and then you weren't driving/parked on an "illegal" road.

The system is against the every day guy. The system wants revenue. The only way to get through to them on this is to make it cost them more to fight you than they will get out of the ticket. Cops are not the arbiters of justice and who decide who is right and who is wrong. They are fact finders and that's why they ask you questions about what you are doing, what your mindset was, what you "knew," etc. That's because they are gathering information to use against you in a trial. Keep cops at arm's distance. Be polite but don't hand them the rope they will use to hang you. 

It's "your responsibility to know where you go" is from the same people that lost a court fight about whether or not they had to tell you about dangerous bears in a campground (notice all the bear warnings lately?). I think a judge would be more sympathetic to that than most would think. And there is some personal experience backing that up. 

I'm almost positive you can get the charges and the fine reduced. I think you might get them dismissed if you got a good lawyer involved. no way you are a stone cold loser on this, regardless of what the cops tell you.

Side - USmarinehuntinfool - This is not directed at you personally. I'm grateful there are men who will risk their lives on freeways as public servants like you. But, my experience with cops who are more interested in being overzealous as officers of the law significantly outweighs my experience with cops who are interested in being public servants. Thus I speak of cops in general without any reference to you personally.

Bully - PM me if you want.


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## RichardClarke

Dodger that is sound advice. Basically as pointed out previously; the system of enforcement and revenue collection has a built-in negotiation process with reduced fines/penalties. Only a fool would pay 100% of the ticket. It is no different than paying full sticker price for a new automobile. Also there is the more serious issue of the DWR wrongfully diverting their enforcement resources towards federal roads issues. I have heard the DWR whine and complain for years that they do not have enough of a law enforcement presence and enough CO's. Well here-in lies the problem, they do not know how to effectively manage the law enforcement resources they do have. In the above scenario we have a DWR fish cop ignoring Strawberry Reservoir and investing her precious time on the job on an alleged Forest Service roads violation....Go figure.


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## utahgolf

I wouldn't sweat it, the prosecutor will offer a plea deal to bump it down to an infraction and you'll pay whatever fine. You can then get that infraction expunged off of your record later on. That will also cost you, good little money maker for them.


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## BullyHunter

Just to anyone interested in an update, I had my appointment with the Prosecutor on Tuesday. As soon as we sat down, he immediately offered me a "plea in abeyance" because of my clean record. I would still pay the $280 fine, and if I had no other issues over the next 6 months, that the Misdemeanor would drop off my record. I listened to him politely, but then asked if I could explain what happened. I then proceeded to tell my story, even pulling up Google Earth print outs of the exact spot where I was parked, which Google Earth satellites even showed 3 cars parked there. I took about 3-5 minutes to explain the whole scenario, as he just sat there and listened. After I was done, he asked if there were any signs anywhere informing me if I could park there or not. I told him there were none, and that I had checked everywhere. He then made a comment that Strawberry is kind of a tough place for these sorts of issues. Reading between the lines, I think he was referencing that he has had problems with tickets up there in the past. He then said he would go before the judge and recommend a full dismissal of my charges.

So I walked out of there with no Misdemeanor and not having to pay a dime! Thanks everyone for your help and ideas!


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## Dunkem

If you went down the road I think you did ,there is a stop sign at the entrance,exit of that washed out road.I was there yesterday and there are no signs anywhere stating no off road.


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## Longgun

@ BullyHunter, 

Well played...


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## Dodger

Awesome. What court were you in?

You got the rabbit out of the hat and didn't have to pay any law school tuition. Well done.


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## BullyHunter

@Dodger, since the incident happened at Strawberry, I was at the Wasatch County courthouse.


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