# WB meeting.....Today, permit numbers



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Sure would be nice if someone listening too, or attending could give updates today.

I would expect a few changes that where not discussed at the RACs.

Alway interesting.
Thanks in advance!


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## DeepTines (Dec 19, 2018)

Anyone know what time it starts?


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## Amy (Jan 22, 2009)

The meeting begins at 9 a.m. and the agenda is pretty full. If you can't attend in person, we stream the meeting live on YouTube:


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

OIAL Summary:

Increase Book Cliffs Bison - Decrease Henry's.

Antelope has old bulls they need to Cull - they asked to use the "alternate" list but they would have to shoot a specific bull. They are asking to be able to call up to 8 more with that (good they should increase).

Large DBH increase. New archery hunt for that and for Rocky Mountain Sheep. 


Mountain Goats decrease. Flew Willard, it was down and thats the rationale. Added NEBO Archery.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Of course Pine Valley complaints are rampant lol.. "The eye test from people calling..."


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Can I just say something. I really like this new Big Game coordinator, he doesn’t allow himself to be run over by these eye test folks. I liked how he came back at the Pine Valley management. I’ve noticed he’s at least willing to be more assertive in his explanation and why the division is doing what it’s doing. I like him.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Board passes motion for 300 more general deer tags on Pine Valley. 

20/20/20/40 split between seasons on those tags.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Wow. They just gut South Cache elk tags. Feel sorry for anyone who applied there!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

And they are full of crap about the application date and having to push draw results to July.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Discussion on applying after numbers are recommended did not go well, but it looks like further research will be done.

Presenters were speaking more on a "we can do this, but there will be consequences" type of deal.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Agree, they can push back application period for 3 or 4 weeks easily. They just don't want people to blame them for making changes to numbers after applications. Some of these WB members lack basic math skills and are not very logical thinkers. After watching these meetings, I do not feel like our wildlife are in good hands with most of the WB members. Thank goodness for DWR that tries to keep them from making ridiculous decisions.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

"We haven't heard of crowding issues on the early rifle, so instead of 20/20/20/40, lets do 20/20/40/20!"

*-HELP!-*

Now, I did see a get together with a pen and paper as the meeting stopped for lunch. Most likely just a misunderstanding.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

If it legitimately takes the Division (and their third party vendor) 2 months to conduct the draw after the application deadline ends, that is a problem with them. 

This is 2019. This can be done in a week and some change to allow for multiple calls for expired credit cards, etc. 

Here is how it could work: Application period begins March 1 and runs to May 10. Results posted by May 25th every year. If you can't run a draw in 15 days with technology the way it is now, you need a new program and vendor. That makes the results posted less than two weeks later than normal. That is not going to impact anyone and their ability to get the time off for a hunt. They were looking for a solution where there was no problem there. But then again, they can't say in a public meeting, "That later application deadline won't allow us to be first in line of applications." 

At best that was a very non-informed discussion. At worst, it was completely disingenuous. I'm hoping that they study it and realize what is being asked for is actually very easily accomplished. Other states have their results posted within a month of application deadline. We do it for other species. So why not big game?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> But then again, they can't say in a public meeting, "That later application deadline won't allow us to be first in line of applications."


Didn't this exact thing get said a few years back in a WB meeting during a discussion on closing the applications after setting tag numbers?


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## bwood (Jan 5, 2011)

The challenge comes with having to accommodate Grandpa who wants to read the regs in a book as well as people who want to change their mind combined with which number of tags do you want to use? You know people get pissed when the number of tags gets reduced. That is why they said the only real option would be to go off the recommended tag numbers. Then they could allow April to be the application month and still get results out by the end of May. Plenty of time to adjust the units that need to be adjusted after the final meeting.


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## Hunttilidrop (Jun 12, 2018)

How many tags did they cut from S cache? There wasn’t a lot to begin with...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

TS
We changed the application/draw process to how it is now for a reason.
It used to be later.......

Changing it back to where EVERYONE knows permit allocation numbers before applying will have ramifications the most hunters will NOT like.......Trust me.


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

Why are other states able to run their draws sooner in the year and with a faster turnaround from application to results...?


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## bwood (Jan 5, 2011)

Other states like WY don't wait for numbers like winter survival, etc. If you know going into January what your tag count will be you can go early and fast. Utah is trying to count every animal and manage tiny units for varying objectives.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

bwood said:


> Other states like WY don't wait for numbers like winter survival, etc. If you know going into January what your tag count will be you can go early and fast. Utah is trying to count every animal and manage tiny units for varying objectives.


Thats elk only in WY....

Deer and antelope applications still open...results in late June


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

150 tags alotted to a new antlerless elk hunt. Passed 4-2

Beaver, North
August 1-11


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

So weird how they make anecdotal motions... Like well, I feel this way so lets do this.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

bwood, they absolutely could go off the numbers after the tag numbers are set. The concern about pushing back draw date is a concern stick in the year 2005.

Are you suggesting a computer program is incapable of getting draw results out in 3 weeks or less? Because if that’s the case, SFW and the expo draw REALLY has some explainin’ to do. And all the regs are available back in February now, why couldn’t they be available in February still? That concern holds no weight to me, to be frank. That seems like a red herring to me. 

I contend they need no more than 15 days to do it, and that accounts for calling people to fix CC numbers. I guarantee there is a member of this forum that could write that program. 


Goof- I’ll take the trade any day. Set numbers and then close app period. Those that want to just apply and be done can still do it under my proposal. Those that want to wait will have a feed days to a week after board meeting to apply. This ain’t rocket science.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Are you suggesting a computer program is incapable of getting draw results out in 3 weeks or less? Because if that's the case, SFW and the expo draw REALLY has some explainin' to do.


It takes the expo longer than 3 weeks - they are already working on who will draw next year!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Wow - finally recommending to let you have a buck and doe pronghorn in the same year!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

TS
The main reason I dont want application daye set back to how they where 25 years ago is,
I'm mainly an archery hunter.
When we didn't see results until July,
We didn't even know were we where hunting until 3 weeks before the hunts opened!
That REALLY SUCKED!


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

goofy elk said:


> TS
> The main reason I dont want application daye set back to how they where 25 years ago is,
> I'm mainly an archery hunter.
> When we didn't see results until July,
> ...


Goofy, what if results were shown in early June? Like 'Nilla was saying, end the application period around mid-May, with results in early to mid-June?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I could live with mid June results.

But everyone knowing tag numders before applying would change draw odds drastically!
I dont like that.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

goofy elk said:


> I could live with mid June results.
> 
> But everyone knowing tag numders before applying would change draw odds drastically!
> I dont like that.


I definitely agree with you, tons of pool-hopping would occur..


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> I could live with mid June results.
> 
> But everyone knowing tag numders before applying would change draw odds drastically!
> I dont like that.


I'm gonna say it...

I agree with Goofy on this. **gasps**


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Mid June? No way! This can be done by May 25th every year, even if we are waiting for tag numbers to be allocated, that is a reasonable deadline. 

Like I said above, make the application period run from March 1-May 10. This allows the early birds that don't care about tag numbers and just want to be entered to do it, and allows those that want to make a more informed decision on their application to have a week after the tag numbers have been determined. This leaves 15 days to get the draw completed and results posted to meet the May 25th deadline each year. I think it can be done. It is all done via software programming now anyway. There is no reason the entire draw could not be completed in a 5 day work week. (I can't imagine why it couldn't be done in a day, actually.) Then use the next week to contact folks for any CC issues, and award to alternates as well. You still have a 5 day buffer to meet the deadline. I'm not a tech savvy guy, but I know there are people on here that are. Am I being unrealistic on this in today's day and age? 

Heck, I'm even okay going to May 30th each year. Now they've got 20 days to complete the draw. Someone would really have to explain to me why this is not doable with the technological advances we have today. 

Take the South Cache, for example. They gave out 55 public draw permits last year. They were recommending 53 public draw tags this year. The board, due to SFW Cache complaining about too many tags, reduced that to 40 tags this year. That is an almost 28% reduction in tags. You don't think that is going to screw some folks in the South Cache pool? What about the impact that this one reduction in tags is going to have on point creep for that unit? Losing 7 bonus tags and 15 tags overall is a big deal in our already strained almost OIL limited entry draw system. 

Goof- I'm not scared of people in the draw having information. Those that are not already paying attention and using the data already available are not going to all the sudden start being data nerds. And those using the current data to their advantage will be able to use those obvious pool jumping situations to their advantage as well. This isn't only a fair way of doing this, it is the right thing to do. Which is a much more persuasive reason to do it anyway.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PS- Was there a Packout sighting at the Board meeting today?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Same goes for them deciding to chop my Mtn Goat unit this year.. but I live with it. It's the area I want to hunt. 


The single example that I would have been PISSED about is the Buffalo tags being reissued again.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> PS- Was there a Packout sighting at the Board meeting today?


Yes lol... I even screen captured him in the video and texted him the picture.

-DallanC


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

bwood said:


> Other states like WY don't wait for numbers like winter survival, etc. If you know going into January what your tag count will be you can go early and fast. Utah is trying to count every animal and manage tiny units for varying objectives.





bwood said:


> Other states like WY don't wait for numbers like winter survival, etc. If you know going into January what your tag count will be you can go early and fast. Utah is trying to count every animal and manage tiny units for varying objectives.


Wyoming is changing to June for NR Elk.

The reason why is that on occasion Wyoming violates its own state statutes for tag numbers. 16% NR

An Example would be if last year that was 100 tags in an elk unit, then 16 tags would go to NR this year. After the permit numbers are set if it is more or less than the 100, then Wyoming is either giving more or less than 16% to Non Residents.

If the number boosts up to 200, then non residents are shorted 16 tags.

If the number falls to fifty, then non residents have gained 8 tags.

Both violate Wyoming law.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Hunttilidrop said:


> How many tags did they cut from S cache? There wasn't a lot to begin with...


I could just text huntilidrop and answer this for him ( he is my brother and all )but I just listened to that part of the meeting and I found it very interesting how that came to pass so I'll share here with y'all

Cache chapter SFW rep gets up complains that it's the only premium elk unit in northern Utah and only wants 40 tags vs DWR recommended 53.

Covy with DWR gets up and details a very fair way to bring south cache to the premium 6.5 -7 year objective by balancing reductions in tags with opportunity by a gradual reduction in permits and backs up the plan with numbers that show the plan is working with an increased age result up to 5.7 as of last year from 4.5 3 years ago.

Board member chimes in and wants to side with SFW and cut tags to 40 now. It passes 4/2 to reduce to 40 this year and try to get to 6.5 to 7 years ASAP.

My take - Certainly seems that SFW has complete control of permit numbers and will override DWR and their reasoning whenever they feel necessary even if the DWR reasoning makes perfect sense. SFW wants = gets. Pretty frustrating to watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

Does anyone have a listing of the permit numbers that were approved today?


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

goofy elk said:


> I could live with mid June results.
> 
> But everyone knowing tag numders before applying would change draw odds drastically!
> I dont like that.


There is no true negative to having the tag numbers set for people to look at and make an informed decision about where they want to put their application fees. Draw odds would be changed in that they would better reflect the happenings with the permit numbers.

I'm a bowhunter as well, and it wouldn't change what I'm doing much to know in early to mid-June. On a year like this year, most guys aren't gonna be able to get to the high country summer range until mid-June anyway.


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## Hunttilidrop (Jun 12, 2018)

That just PISSES me of about the S cache and SFW! Bunch of BS! What’s he talking about only premium elk LE? What about San Juan, beaver, boulder mtns the Monroe. Aren’t those all premium?? When me and my brother drew in 2013 there was 45 early tags alone. And probably close to a 150 total. We had a great hunt saw plenty of bulls! A guy we camped with even killed a 370 and there was a 400 bull killed the year before. My chances of ever drawing that tag again just went down the drain even for archery! Which puts me in total favor of what vanilla is proposing! I would of never left my 5 LE deer pts behind if I’d of known they were going to pull that crap! Rant over.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Hunttilidrop said:


> That just PISSES me of about the S cache and SFW! Bunch of BS! What's he talking about only premium elk LE? What about San Juan, beaver, boulder mtns the Monroe. Aren't those all premium?? When me and my brother drew in 2013 there was 45 early tags alone. And probably close to a 150 total. We had a great hunt saw plenty of bulls! A guy we camped with even killed a 370 and there was a 400 bull killed the year before. My chances of ever drawing that tag again just went down the drain even for archery! Which puts me in total favor of what vanilla is proposing! I would of never left my 5 LE deer pts behind if I'd of known they were going to pull that crap! Rant over.


South cache is the only LE unit managed for premium in northern Utah. I knew you'd be pissed. Another reason I didn't call you. Glad I stuck with 5 deer points. Haha

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Vanilla - now I’ve got to take back all those nasty comments I say about lawyers each time I pay our retainer fee ... 

There is ABSOLUTELY no reason the entire draw process couldn’t take place in a couple hours. Two days to correct expired cards, two days for alternates and send out the emails. I’m all for a shorter application period, which closes shortly after the tag numbers are set.


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## Hunttilidrop (Jun 12, 2018)

If some one could convince me that there is another reason SFW cache was pushing for this other than being able to sell their SCache auction tags for 16 - 24k instead of the 8-10k they been getting I would feel a lot better. A pm would be fine. Thanks


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Hunttilidrop said:


> If some one could convince me that there is another reason SFW cache was pushing for this other than being able to sell their SCache auction tags for 16 - 24k instead of the 8-10k they been getting I would feel a lot better. A pm would be fine. Thanks


16 -24K? Only in their dreams. Too many CWMU's and private to think they are going to grow enough big Bulls to charge that kind of money. Even on the best years anything 340ish was a great bull.

True there might be a few bigger but very few. Do you think the CWMU's will be willing to deal with reduced tags long enough to grow enough Bulls to charge those kind of prices?

I would love to know how many 350 plus Bulls have come off the SC in the last ten years.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> Mid June? No way! This can be done by May 25th every year, even if we are waiting for tag numbers to be allocated, that is a reasonable deadline.
> 
> Like I said above, make the application period run from March 1-May 10. This allows the early birds that don't care about tag numbers and just want to be entered to do it, and allows those that want to make a more informed decision on their application to have a week after the tag numbers have been determined. This leaves 15 days to get the draw completed and results posted to meet the May 25th deadline each year. I think it can be done. It is all done via software programming now anyway. There is no reason the entire draw could not be completed in a 5 day work week. (I can't imagine why it couldn't be done in a day, actually.) Then use the next week to contact folks for any CC issues, and award to alternates as well. You still have a 5 day buffer to meet the deadline. I'm not a tech savvy guy, but I know there are people on here that are. Am I being unrealistic on this in today's day and age?
> 
> Heck, I'm even okay going to May 30th each year. Now they've got 20 days to complete the draw. Someone would really have to explain to me why this is not doable with the technological advances we have today.


It certainly is technologically feasible to run the draw in a day (or less) assuming the code is written and tested in advance. If not, they need better engineers to redesign and rewrite it.

It should just be a quick update to the database that holds the tag numbers, then run the script. The only real bottlenecks I see are 1) There can be limitations to how many concurrent emails you can send (you could get flagged as a spammer) and 2) running credit cards can have concurrent limits too. I'd bet this is why we usually see credit cards hit over the course of 1-2 days. They likely are throttling sending the results and charging cards because of this.

Vanilla's proposal allows more than enough time to process the draw, and we still get the results about the same time. Let's do it.


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## Hunttilidrop (Jun 12, 2018)

I agree middlefork! I cannot understand it what so ever. If it’s not about the money then it must be the trophy hunter that wants an easy trophy with a lot of points. I’d also like to know how many 350+ bulls have come off there in the last 10 years I’d guess no more than 1-2 a year.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Hunttilidrop said:


> I agree middlefork! I cannot understand it what so ever. If it's not about the money then it must be the trophy hunter that wants an easy trophy with a lot of points. I'd also like to know how many 350+ bulls have come off there in the last 10 years I'd guess no more than 1-2 a year.


It is about the money. SFW just conquered another area and one of my favorite. It's unfortunate to say the least. How long before we will start seeing mossback trucks blocking roads up there? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

3arabians said:


> I knew you'd be pissed. Another reason I didn't call you. Glad I stuck with 5 deer points. Haha
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What are brothers for???


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think it's interesting that the DWR stood up today and said that if we went to an application period closing after tag numbers are set, we'd have to push the draw back to July. And another re-emphasized, "We can do this, but not without consequences." 

Last year the tag numbers were set at the April 26th Wildlife Board meeting. Credit cards started getting hit on May 8th. That is 12 calendar days and 8 business days after the tag numbers were set. 

So do they want evidence that their own statements today were total bull crap? Just look at what happened in their own system last year. This is such a smoke and mirrors issue going on with that. I was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt that this just caught them off guard and they were answering will not being informed. I now think that the answers were just completely disingenuous at best. There is zero reason for the public that this can't happen. I've never been a great conspiracy theorist, but these situations sure try to turn me into one! 

On last year's time table, if the application period closed on May 10, credit cards could start getting hit on May 22, and plenty of time to run cards again, call lucky winners that are unlucky and have a bad card on file, and move to alternates over the next 8 days. This is so, so stupid that they try to act like this would be a big deal. So stupid!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Vanilla - now I've got to take back all those nasty comments I say about lawyers each time I pay our retainer fee ...


Hey now! Don't get carried away and go do anything rash that you're going to regret later. :grin:


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Rash?! 

I knew CPAJeff was hiding something


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

#noregrets


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Card just got hit for a Mountain Dew!!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

3arabians said:


> It is about the money. SFW just conquered another area and one of my favorite. It's unfortunate to say the least. How long before we will start seeing mossback trucks blocking roads up there?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't want to say much... but Mossback has a pretty heavy presence on S. Cache right now and I felt like that at least influenced this.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

We’re there any repercussions at all for them after blocking public roads?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Ray said:


> We're there any repercussions at all for them after blocking public roads?


Nope. Can't prove who dun what. I am surprised going to the Henry's that you don't see much of a DWR presence during the hunts. I know I know, we are stretched thin.

I have hunted a long time and ran into maybe 2 warden's. Guess I just time it all right.


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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

I’ve yet to see any photo evidence of any mossback guide or the man himself blocking any public roads. Bigfoot has more proof than the mossback road blocking claim. I’m not stickin up for the dude, I think he feels pretty entitled to all of Utah’s animals, as he evidently displayed when he found out we killed some depredation bulls on San Juan before his hunters had a chance to hunt,, but I don’t believe it’s right to hammer a guy over a “rumor”.

As far a DWR presence goes, some years I run into them multiple times. Others I’ll never even pass one driving down the road. I think they rely pretty heavily on the public policing each other and reporting any violations they come across and then an officer can deal with that specific issue. They tend to stay pretty close to popular trailheads and parking lots on the bigger hunts than they do in the actual field. If you hunt all day away from the road, I doubt you’ll ever run into one


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

sheepassassin said:


> I've yet to see any photo evidence of any mossback guide or the man himself blocking any public roads. Bigfoot has more proof than the mossback road blocking claim. I'm not stickin up for the dude, I think he feels pretty entitled to all of Utah's animals, as he evidently displayed when he found out we killed some depredation bulls on San Juan before his hunters had a chance to hunt,, but I don't believe it's right to hammer a guy over a "rumor".


Everyone mark this down in your journals. I'm going to agree totally with sheepassassin. Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a bit every once in a while, and he got this one right.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The news release:
https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah...dlife-board-approves-2019-big-game-hunts.html


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

Are the tag allotments available yet per Unit, per season?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Bucksnbulls08 said:


> Are the tag allotments available yet per Unit, per season?


Yes
As presented in the RAC packet.
Ecept just a few like Cache elk.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

TOTP!


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

I saw the number suggested per Unit but not broken down by the season within those Units.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Bucksnbulls08 said:


> I saw the number suggested per Unit but not broken down by the season within those Units.


I've got the specific unit/season permit numbers..
What one are you looking for?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

sheepassassin said:


> If you hunt all day away from the road, I doubt you'll ever run into one


Normally, I would say you are right. But, just a couple years ago my brother and I had hiked into a fairly remote area on the Boulder to hunt deer. Though we were at least one mile and probably 2 miles from the nearest road and totally off any marked trails, we ran into a CO while taking a drink break. He checked our licenses, questioned us for a few minutes about other hunters we had seen in the area, and mentioned a trophy bull that had been killed and left to rot. He was hiking back into the area where the bull had been killed as part of an investigation. Because we were in the area, we were questioned and checked as part of that investigation. So, it does happen.


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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

wyoming2utah said:


> Normally, I would say you are right. But, just a couple years ago my brother and I had hiked into a fairly remote area on the Boulder to hunt deer. Though we were at least one mile and probably 2 miles from the nearest road and totally off any marked trails, we ran into a CO while taking a drink break. He checked our licenses, questioned us for a few minutes about other hunters we had seen in the area, and mentioned a trophy bull that had been killed and left to rot. He was hiking back into the area where the bull had been killed as part of an investigation. Because we were in the area, we were questioned and checked as part of that investigation. So, it does happen.


Correct but that wasn't a random encounter where an officer just decided to go hiking for no reason other than to contact hunters. He was there for an investigation and you happened to be in the same area


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> Normally, I would say you are right. But, just a couple years ago my brother and I had hiked into a fairly remote area on the Boulder to hunt deer. Though we were at least one mile and probably 2 miles from the nearest road and totally off any marked trails, we ran into a CO while taking a drink break. He checked our licenses, questioned us for a few minutes about other hunters we had seen in the area, and mentioned a trophy bull that had been killed and left to rot. He was hiking back into the area where the bull had been killed as part of an investigation. Because we were in the area, we were questioned and checked as part of that investigation. So, it does happen.


I will give em this - when you see them they absolutely check you. Many moons ago we were hunting private property. There is areas behind us that are landlocked and come through, so there is a total of 3 gates if you want to reach the "end of the road". A CO was investigating a Bull Elk poaching/trespass incident and needed to get through the second gate. We didn't "need" to do anything, but of course we were going to let him through. He thanked us - than asked to see our licenses, to open the bolts on our weapons, and then a few questions including drinking. It wasn't even that he asked, but he became interrogating really quick.

So - when you do see them it can be anywhere and they will be on their toes. I do actually wish we saw them more.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I wouldn't say that they always will check you. 

I ran into one up on the Monroe Mountain one year and he was more interested in my double barrel .410 shotgun than he was with checking me. Then there was one down on the LaSals. He had no idea of what he was doing out on the opening of deer season. He didn't check us or even know anything about the small lake that we were coming from. 

Then just a couple of years ago we were down at Palisade Reservoir taking a break from the turkey hunt and catching some fish. Two F&G officers were moving a dock around and neither one of them checked my license, even when I mentioned that I was from out of state. 

You just never know what they are going to do.

Now in Colorado if you even blink there will be one to check your license and document it in their log book. Either fishing or hunting it doesn't matter.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> Two F&G officers were moving a dock around and neither one of them checked my license, even when I mentioned that I was from out of state.


Just an FYI...if these guys were moving a dock around, chances are they weren't F&G officers. They were probably state park employees. Conservation officers would most likely not be moving docks around...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> Just an FYI...if these guys were moving a dock around, chances are they weren't F&G officers. They were probably state park employees. Conservation officers would most likely not be moving docks around...


Unless they were driving the wrong trucks and wearing the wrong shirts they were DOW officers. I have also never noticed State Park officials wearing sidearms.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> Unless they were driving the wrong trucks and wearing the wrong shirts they were DOW officers. I have also never noticed State Park officials wearing sidearms.


OK -- give you the benefit of the doubt. A couple UDWR law-enforcement agents were out moving docks at a State Park (that's SO WEIRD!).



Critter said:


> I wouldn't say that they always will check you.


Just out of curiosity -- how do you know whether or not you were checked? Obviously, one way would be a verbal question asking for something specific ("Do you have your license?"). But just because you weren't asked to show your license, doesn't mean you weren't checked!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

PBH said:


> OK -- give you the benefit of the doubt. A couple UDWR law-enforcement agents were out moving docks at a State Park (that's SO WEIRD!).
> 
> Just out of curiosity -- how do you know whether or not you were checked? Obviously, one way would be a verbal question asking for something specific ("Do you have your license?"). But just because you weren't asked to show your license, doesn't mean you weren't checked!


So are they using some sort of biometrics now?  Or were they checking out the camo that I was wearing and wondering why a fisherman needed to wear camo?

You would think that they would ask to see a license, isn't that part of their job to make sure that hunters and fishermen have the correct licenses for the activity that they are engaged in?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> Unless they were driving the wrong trucks and wearing the wrong shirts they were DOW officers. I have also never noticed State Park officials wearing sidearms.


Go to Yuba...they do there all the time! Chances are you were seeing DNR employees who were employed to work at the state park. These officers are not necessarily conservation officers. These DNR employees would be driving almost the same exact types of trucks as COs.



Critter said:


> You would think that they would ask to see a license, isn't that part of their job to make sure that hunters and fishermen have the correct licenses for the activity that they are engaged in?


Not a state park employee...while they could check your license, that's really not what they are employed to do.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> You would think that they would ask to see a license, isn't that part of their job to make sure that hunters and fishermen have the correct licenses for the activity that they are engaged in?


Wouldn't that depend on what they were out looking for in the first place?

I'm guessing that often times in the world of law enforcement that an officer can learn a whole bunch by a simple conversation. Maybe enough to warrant further questions ("can i see your license?"), or maybe something more serious ("have you had anything to drink?"). The conversation may also give enough information (local resident, fishes 5 days a week, got checked last yesterday at _____ State Park, rarely keeps any fish, having a bad day on the water....) that asking to see the license just isn't necessary.

If the goal isn't license compliance, then maybe that question never gets asked. It doesn't mean that the officer didn't do his/her job.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> Unless they were driving the wrong trucks and wearing the wrong shirts they were DOW officers. I have also never noticed State Park officials wearing sidearms.


I was at Willard Bay State park on Saturday and saw two different State Park officers wearing sidearms.
I've also been checked for drivers license and registration by State Park, FS,DWR and county sheriff's all wearing sidearms while riding ATV's.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Trust me, these were two DOW officers and not State Park officers. 

I have a good friend that works for the State Parks and the uniforms are quite different.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

DNR park rangers are sworn law enforcement officers. Why wouldn't they wear sidearms? This isn't Canada...


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> DNR park rangers are sworn law enforcement officers. Why wouldn't they wear sidearms? This isn't Canada...


Eh??


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> Trust me, these were two DOW officers and not State Park officers.
> 
> I have a good friend that works for the State Parks and the uniforms are quite different.


Ok...I'll believe you. Now, I just have to figure out why our COs are moving docks at a state park instead of the state park employees. Really weird.

Are you sure? DNR uniforms are all pretty much the same...especially when we are talking about law enforcement officers.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wyoming2utah said:


> Are you sure? DNR uniforms are all pretty much the same...especially when we are talking about law enforcement officers.


They look similar. The patches are different colors. DWR has more of an orange look and Parks is more of a green look.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It was long enough ago that I don't remember what color of uniforms they had on. I have a hard enough time remembering what I had on last week.


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

I was specifically looking for allocations on the Dutton Unit. Archery deer permit numbers for resident and NR. Same for the Dutton rifle deer.


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> I've got the specific unit/season permit numbers..
> What one are you looking for?


Dutton archery deer permit numbers for resident and NR. Same for Dutton rifle deer.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Bucksnbulls08 said:


> Dutton archery deer permit numbers for resident and NR. Same for Dutton rifle deer.


Total permits = 675

Archery (20%) = 135 = 122 Res - 13 Nonres
Any weapon (60%) = 405 = 365 Res - 40 Nonres

It could be off a permit or two depending on whether they round the numbers up or down.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

EFA is good at math.....

Exactly right!


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## coltonjdavis (May 7, 2019)

goofy elk said:


> EFA is good at math.....
> 
> Exactly right!


Does anyone have the numbers for Beaver archery?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

coltonjdavis said:


> Does anyone have the numbers for Beaver archery?


I could just give you a number, but then you (and all you other readers) wouldn't have the chance to learn how to figure it out for yourself.

However, I can give you the formula: TP x %=WP
WP = Permits per Weapon hunt (the answer you're looking for)
TP = Total Permits for the unit
% = Percentage available for the Weapon hunt where the percentage is shown as a decimal. (20%=.20; 50%=.50; 75%=.75; etc.)

Here's the percentages for ALL the deer units per the Mule deer plan:
20% Archery
20% Muzzleloader
60% Any weapon (rifle) unless there is an early any weapon hunt, then it is 20% early any weapon hunt and 40% normal any weapon hunt.

The total number of permits on the Beaver unit is now 3,000. You figure out the rest!

You're welcome!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Mid June? No way! This can be done by May 25th every year, even if we are waiting for tag numbers to be allocated...


If cards are in fact getting hit today like is being reported, then they don't even need until May 25 to make my plan work. And any statement made by a board member or a DWR employee saying it can happen, but only with consequences of pushing the draw back, is either completely uninformed, or a straight up lie.


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