# How big a deal is 1-9" twist



## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok I have been trying to build a load for me new 28" .223 Encore barrel and can not seem to get tighter then 1.5 inches. Not bad, but not what I wanted. So for the heck of it I started looking at different bolt guns. What Im finding is names like Remington, Howa & Weatherby all have the same 1-12" twist my encore barrel has. I have found great deals on all of these ranging from $325.00 for the Howa M1500 and Vanguard, to $395.00 for the ADL 700. The other 2 guns I'm looking at are the Savage 10 FP LE I can get new for a hair over $400 or the Stevens which is right around $300.00. Both of these are 1-9" twist. I already have a 10-40x50 scope and plan on spending more time at the bench then in the field but will take it after varmints from time to time.

So for you guys who do a lot of shooting with the .223 how big a deal is the 1-9" twist vs the 1-12". Darn near every forum I go to says if your gonna buy new buy 1-9".


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

1-12" is not an issue at all unless you want to shoot bullets heavier than 60 grains. Most varmint hunters use 40 to 55 grain bullets. 
But if for some reason you would ever want to try heavier/longer 65/68/69 grain BTHP Match bullets, you would want a 1-9" .223. That twist is just a bit more versatile, but not necessary.

I posted some general guidelines for .223 twist rates on another gun forum that goes into more detail:
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=58230.0


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

What are the velocities that you are getting with your 28" barrel? i'll bet that they are a bit higher than what you can get with a standard length barrel. Try loading down to standard velocities, and see what you get. 
Also, you need to realize that not all guns are capable of 1/2 inch groups, in spite of what you read on the internet. Even less shooters are capable of that level of accuracy.


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## reb8600 (Sep 8, 2007)

What load are you trying? As stated the 1-9 or 1-12 twist should shoot the lighter bullets just fine. Do you have other guns that you can shoot small groups with? A lot of shooters them selves cant do it. I have a load for my Rock River Arms 16" that will consistently shoot 3/4" to 1" 5 shot groups. I have owned several AR's and was able to get all of them to shoot less than 1" groups. Pretty much all my guns will with my reloads.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I understand about the bullet weights according to twist rate. I guess I'm curious if the guys who can only shoot up to 55gr bullets ever regret not getting a 1-9" so they could shoot heavier bullets.

Ive tried a couple loads over 3031 (my favorite powder) a couple over H335, 4198 & 4895 (all powders I already had). I usually select 2 loads in the middle of the range according to the books. We have tried Hornady 53gr Vmax as well as the 60gr VMax. We have also tried some factory .55gr factory ammo. My brother in law has found a nice load for his gun which is a Howa M-1500 with a 1-12" twist but the same load shoots 2" groups for me. 

As far as velocities, I've been having tripod issues so I haven't taken the Chrono out yet but do hope to do so soon. As one would expect, they are higher then you will see out of say, my brother in laws 22" Howa but how much higher, I'm unsure.

I do shoot from a benchrest and have shot groups under 1" many times with my .308 and 30-06 so I know its possible (on my end).

Perhaps I'm being impatient but after reading some of the stuff Mike Bellm wrote about the 28" barrel from Thompson (after I bought it), I'm beginning to wonder if I'm just wasting time and money trying to find a sub moa load.

BTW, great write up Frisco! some good info there.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

I shoot the Savage FP10LE and it does very well with the 1/9 and 55 and 60 grn bullets.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Al Hansen said:


> I shoot the Savage FP10LE and it does very well with the 1/9 and 55 and 60 grn bullets.


Just curious, what kind of groups you getting?


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## reb8600 (Sep 8, 2007)

In my RRA 1-9 twist I am shooting a Hornady 52 gr BTHP with 28 gr of IMR 4895.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Bo0YaA said:


> Al Hansen said:
> 
> 
> > I shoot the Savage FP10LE and it does very well with the 1/9 and 55 and 60 grn bullets.
> ...


I think Al mostly shoots groups of prairie dogs. But I may be mistaken.

My $.02 is that the 1-9" is just becoming standard (or has become). The guys who understand their application are the ones who understand what twist works best for their stye of shooting and they are the ones who are going to say they want a 1-8", 1-12", or a 1-14" or some variant thereof. The 55gr bullet seems to be the most ubiquitous of the .223 Rem bullet weights in the market so it would make sense for the 1-9" to be the most common twist.

Here is my question that may cause a bit of debate (that I do not personally have an answer to). Is there a point of "over stabilization" for the lighter bullets. What I mean is that using a lighter bullet (say a 40gr NBT) in a slow twist rifle such as a 1-14'' makes sense as the bullet doesnt need as much twist to stabilize in flight as a heavier bullet. But can having too much twist affect the accuracy of a lighter bullet like the 40gr? I have a .223 Rem but have never tested this concept


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Bax, from what I have read, what people have seen is "over twisting" which on SP bullets can make them disintegrate before reaching the target. The way to combat that is going with a 40gr or lighter bullet with some sort of plastic tip.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

With your reloads, at least with H-335 I would work up to maximum. I have seen groups tighten up as you get up into the pressure range that the powder was designed for. With older stick powders like 3031, 4198 and 4895, this really isn't the case.
You could also try some other new powders like IMR 8208, Varget, RL-15, or TAC. All of those probably work best when loaded on the high end.
Primers can change things. Try Rem 9 1/2 BR primers for example.
Good luck - you should be able to find something that will work.


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## wilky (Jun 19, 2011)

my AR with 20" barrel is going to have a 1-8 twist for long range shooting


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

> my AR with 20" barrel is going to have a 1-8 twist for long range shooting


Ergo - you plan on using 68 to 80 grain match bullets in it as those are considered best in the wind at long range + being accurate. Right?
...because 55-gr bullets go just as far and are a bit flatter over most of the distance.

The point being that one chooses the twist to match the bullet you intend to use - as opposed to believing the twist in and of itself has some magical long range properties.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Frisco Pete said:


> With your reloads, at least with H-335 I would work up to maximum. I have seen groups tighten up as you get up into the pressure range that the powder was designed for. ....


Frisco Pete, What is the pressure range that H335 was designed for? What is the best way to gather this type of information?


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

H-335 was engineered to be a military ball powder and originally was used as such. 5.56 NATO ammo is loaded hot - as in 3240 fps from a 20" barrel. Ball powder is not as flexible as extruded, therefore it has a narrower performance range. You can look up SAAMI pressure for the .223 and figure that you will want to get reasonably close to that. It also burns cleaner at higher pressures. Part of this is due to the deterrent coatings ball powder has. So you probably want to stick to loads around max or a grain or so under. That is watching for pressure signs of course. Duplicating factory velocities as chronographed in your gun (because their .223 55-gr velocities are unrealistically high by 100 fps in my tests) is the best way to duplicate factory pressure since we can't measure pressure directly.

In my experience, with 55-gr bullets, 25 to 26 grains of H-335 is a good area depending on chamber and bullet. I don't think it does as well with heavier than 60-gr bullets.
Other modern powders like TAC fall into the same category; but are a bit cleaner than the older H-335. 

Duplicating military M-193 55-gr velocities is unwise because you won't be using new brass, crimped-in primers, and maybe not a NATO 5.56-spec chamber.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Frisco Pete
I can find the upper limits fairly easy, but what about the lower limits? Is there a chart that will give the span?


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Bo0YaA said:


> Al Hansen said:
> 
> 
> > I shoot the Savage FP10LE and it does very well with the 1/9 and 55 and 60 grn bullets.
> ...


Sorry, I have been out of town for a week. My .223's have consistantly shot .25 -.50 if I do my part. And yes they do very well on the Zombie P-dogs.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

There is no chart listing the lower limits of ball powders like H-335, but I wouldn't go lower than start data listed in your various reloading manuals. 

BTW, the Hornady data seems unusually low for this powder, although in their gun the low charge weights seem to provide normal velocity/pressure. Just an example of how a specific test gun can be different than others. Sierra data seems to track well with my results.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Frisco Pete said:


> There is no chart listing the lower limits of ball powders like H-335, but I wouldn't go lower than start data listed in your various reloading manuals.
> 
> BTW, the Hornady data seems unusually low for this powder, although in their gun the low charge weights seem to provide normal velocity/pressure. Just an example of how a specific test gun can be different than others. Sierra data seems to track well with my results.


Thanks


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