# Crazy and sad elk hunting story



## b177y (Aug 30, 2011)

So, after a very interesting cow elk hunt this weekend, I have to share this crazy and sad story with the forums. I'm not using any names to protect the guilty/innocent.

My dad and I were hunting for antlerless elk with a guide/CWMU manager this weekend, on his CWMU property. It was our second day hunting, early morning, and we were driving from our first hunting area to a different one, since we hadn't seen any elk at all that morning. During our short drive, we see a truck and two guys gutting and butchering an elk. Of course we stop and look though our binoculars to see what they got. It's a nice size elk. When one of the guys moves, we can see the head. The guide goes "S***! It's got antlers!" It's antlerless only season, the bull season ended on that CWMU over one month ago. We drive down to see what's up. There is no cell service available.

We park next to the other truck, get plate numbers, etc, just in case this goes bad. One of the guys comes down to greet us. He's friendly. He chats with the guide a little, but the guide doesn't tell him that he is the CWMU manager yet. The "poacher" tells us it's his first bull, 400yd shot, first thing this morning. He's happy and excited. I use quotes around the word "poacher" because he does not seem to be a malicious poacher, but technically, he is poaching. The CWMU operator drops the bomb…..bull season ended a month ago. The "poacher" turns white, and looks like he's going to get sick. He says he's got a tag for the CWMU and produces a bull and cow tag. Neither has a date, just "contact operator". The "poacher" says has hunted this CWMU for years, and thought the bull and cow seasons were all the same. A little more chatting between the operator and "poacher" and then we all drive up to the kill site.

It's a 5x6 bull, mostly butchered. The "poachers" companion greets us, he's a nice guy too. He is informed by his buddy that they effed up bad. The "poachers" and the operator are chatting about what happened, checking tags, yadda yadda yadda. I pick up my binoculars and start looking around. I figure if these guys saw a bunch of bulls, maybe there's a cow around that my dad and I can chase and try to fill his tag while this situation is dealt with. While scanning, I see what looks like some buff colored rocks, about 50 yards from where we are standing. I think to myself, "That's weird, those rocks look like a bull lying down. What's the chances of rocks and tree limbs looking like that?" Sure enough, it moves it's head and looks at me! I yell, "There's another bull!"

The operator is now very heated. "Be straight with me guys!" They insist they only shot the one bull, 3 shots at first light, 400 yard shot. It was a group of 5 bulls. The one they are butchering fell where it is now. My dad and I walk up to the other bull. It doesn't move until we get about 20 yards away, and then it just looks at us. We get away from it since it is obviously injured and not well. It is a large 6x6 bull.

The operator tells the guys to not move until we get back since we have to drive and get cell service. The "poacher" promises he won't. He says he knows that he is screwed, and if he dropped his bull at the butcher, which is what he was planning on doing, he would probably be arrested. We leave and drive up a hill to get cell service. After a few calls and about an hour and a half, the proper authorities are on their way.

The DNR officer that shows up is actually a "big-wig" supervisor since the regional officers were all busy or off. He gives us permission to dispatch the wounded 6x6 while he interviews the "poachers". We walk to about 10 yards away and do what we need to do. I feel terrible for this giant animal that has been suffering for a while now. When we gut it, his abdomen is pressurized with blood. We find a high abdominal bullet wound, almost on the spine. There is no blood trail leading to this spot. The "poachers" come help us load the bull into the truck. The DNR keeps both sets of antlers, my dad and I get the meat from the 6x6. The "poacher's" companion was able to keep the meat from the 5x6. The "poacher" tells us that he will pay a large fine, possibly lose privileges for a while. He apologizes to the operator, and asks for forgiveness and to pass the message to the operator's dad and brother, who he has hunted with in the past. He is grateful that the meat from both animals will not be wasted.

My opinions on this situation (remember, opinions are like a-holes, we all have one and they all stink):

1. ALWAYS know what your tag is good for. This is my first experience ever with a CWMU. The rules are extremely confusing, and different operators have different rules. I have a different CWMU cow elk tag that has a different season and different rules from my dad's. We called the operators multiple times until we were sure that we had the rules figured out. This is also why we opted for the guide service for my dad's tag.

2. Long range shooting seems to be a fad in hunting now. Lots of guys brag about how far their shot was. We ran into another group of hunters the day before this that bragged about their 350 yard shot. When you consider poor light, adrenaline, cross wind, and everything else that can go wrong, long range shots are a recipe for disaster. This "poacher" had a totally unobscured shot, no brush or trees, just low grass. Somehow, a second bull was wounded, and they never even knew it. I practice and sight-in at 200 yards, and I consider 250 to be my practical maximum. What happened to actually HUNTING? Get close, sneak up, use all of your cunning to make an ethical and clean kill. Don't buy the biggest gun and biggest scope thinking that you can make a 600 yard shot (or 425 in this case, as seen by our rangefinder). There is too much that can go wrong.

3. When you realize that you effed up, stay there and deal with it. DNR was very fair. Had these guys tried to run or hide what happened, they would most likely be in jail. These were both considered "trophy" animals, and the consequences are major fines, loss of privileges, and felonies. The "poacher" was honest and will be punished, but not as bad as if he would have been caught later.

4. I consider myself a meat hunter. I like eating wild game, and I enjoy hunting. I do not display any heads, mounts, or antlers. I know I am in the minority, but that is just me. When I see the stories of trophy poachers and now I have actually witnessed it, I question the "culture" of trophies. A large set of antlers should never be the reason for destruction of animals. I just don't get it. Had we not seen the wounded 6x6, he would have died a slow cruel death. The trophy culture seems to go hand in hand with my opinion of long-range shooting above. Hunters seem to be losing touch with actually hunting.

5. The DNR and CWMU operators really need to get together and make the rules and dates clearer. Looking up information on the DNR website or "Contact operator" instructions on the license will lead to more situations like this. It is too confusing in the present form.

6. If you witness something like this, call the DNR! I would never try to confront poachers, but we were with the guide/operator, and we really didn't know any better. The operator told us stories of other poachers getting a little "western" on him and his brother on prior incidents on this land. Some guys may not be as friendly as this "poacher" who just made a terrible mistake. The real poachers don't have any respect for animal life, and they probably don't have much respect for your life. Don't confront guys unless you have too, let the cops deal with it. It's just a set of antlers (see #2 and #4 above).

Rant over, feel free to discuss……


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

good job spotting that bull. which cwmu were you on? I hunt for meat as well. Antlers are a nice bonus but I hunt to fill the freezer. did you still get to fill your cow tag after they let you keep the bull?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Sad deal all around. There were glimpses of integrity which provided a little silver lining around the whole situation.-------SS


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Have been trying to get dates and boundery discriptions published or at least posted for some years now. I know CWMU are getting better, but this situation is compounded by the fact that two bulls were killed out of season on a private CWMU. I know some standup CWMU operators are out there and the guy you are with seems to be one of them. I also question a few operators whom I have wittnessed over the years and question their ethics and even the legalities of their actions. I guess the best was made of a bad situation. Big


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

b177y said:


> ,2. Long range shooting seems to be a fad in hunting now. Lots of guys brag about how far their shot was. We ran into another group of hunters the day before this that bragged about their 350 yard shot. When you consider poor light, adrenaline, cross wind, and everything else that can go wrong, long range shots are a recipe for disaster. This "poacher" had a totally unobscured shot, no brush or trees, just low grass. Somehow, a second bull was wounded, and they never even knew it. I practice and sight-in at 200 yards, and I consider 250 to be my practical maximum. What happened to actually HUNTING? Get close, sneak up, use all of your cunning to make an ethical and clean kill. Don't buy the biggest gun and biggest scope thinking that you can make a 600 yard shot (or 425 in this case, as seen by our rangefinder). There is too much that can go wrong.a terrible mistake. The real poachers don't have any respect for animal life, and they probably don't have much respect for your life. Don't confront guys unless you have too, let the cops deal with it. It's just a set of antlers (see #2 and #4 above).


I'm glad things worked out for you. I hope you got your elk. You HAVE to love elk meat.

Just a bit on longrange shooting...it's not unethical in the hands of a well-practiced, knowedgeable shooter. Lisa shoots 3-5" groups at 1000 with her 6.5x284 on a regular basis. She's shot elk and deer with my 338 Edge at ungodly yardages. (My Edge has more energy at 1000 yards than a '06 does at the muzzle). However, it's not OK for someone to pop off shots at faraway elk and deer without knowing what they're doing or knowing the risks. 
You just have to have the discipline to not shoot when the conditions aren't right. This is something two of the best snipers in the world taught us in training.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Your title "Crazy and sad elk hunting story" pretty well describes this situation. 
Maybe the "poachers" need to plead not-guilty and let the case go to court. This is my thinking...on the two dead elk, pretty well indefensible, but...on the timing of the hunt it seems to me that "contact manager" is just not adequate instructions. If they are found not guilty for this reason then they should sue both the DWR and the CWMU for expenses, etc. Sometimes liability forces some issues to be resolved, and there is nothing like loosing a few bucks from a lawsuit to make a business and government agencies...CWMU's are just a business after all...be more responsive and diligent with their practices. 
I am not passing judgment here, just proposing a solution to the problem... inadequate and confussing instructions on the face of the permit... as presented.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

That is very odd! I will doubt if they get anything too bad of a punishment relatively speaking, I turned in a guy who was very deceptive and lied and lied about it and did not lose any equipment and only paid a small fine. 
So, does each operator just pick their own exact dates among a large window of options? I have not ever hunted one nor do I intend to.


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## b177y (Aug 30, 2011)

35whelen said:


> good job spotting that bull. which cwmu were you on? I hunt for meat as well. Antlers are a nice bonus but I hunt to fill the freezer. did you still get to fill your cow tag after they let you keep the bull?


I'd rather not say which CWMU, this whole thing is still kinda weird for me. (PM sent).

The DNR officer issued a "disposal tag" to my dad, so he still has his cow tag for that area. I have a cow tag for a different CWMU for later this month for 5 days, but depending how much meat this bull turns into, I may or may not even go. My parents and my own family are just finishing the cow I shot last year, and this bull is at least 100 lbs more of meat.


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## b177y (Aug 30, 2011)

longbow said:


> I'm glad things worked out for you. I hope you got your elk. You HAVE to love elk meat.
> 
> Just a bit on longrange shooting...it's not unethical in the hands of a well-practiced, knowedgeable shooter. Lisa shoots 3-5" groups at 1000 with her 6.5x284 on a regular basis. She's shot elk and deer with my 338 Edge at ungodly yardages. (My Edge has more energy at 1000 yards than a '06 does at the muzzle). However, it's not OK for someone to pop off shots at faraway elk and deer without knowing what they're doing or knowing the risks.
> You just have to have the discipline to not shoot when the conditions aren't right. This is something two of the best snipers in the world taught us in training.


I knew this would come up, and yes, I agree. However, I think more people _believe_ that they are snipers or great long range shooters when they clearly are not.

Obviously, if you have the training of a military sniper, you can probably snipe a deer or elk half a mile away. Put a big gun and big scope in the hands of the other 90% of hunters, add some wind and weather and a good dose of buck fever, and bad things are bound to happen.

Also, you are correct....I love elk meat!


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## b177y (Aug 30, 2011)

Huge29 said:


> So, does each operator just pick their own exact dates among a large window of options? I have not ever hunted one nor do I intend to.


I _think_ that's how it works. The operator of my CWMU told me that I get 5 days to hunt. I had to tell him which five I wanted. We met the operator one morning at the property last month (not my hunting days) and he gave us a map and the combo to the gate. He told us where to park and pointed out where to look for elk, that's about it. We are not allowed to scout.

My dad's CWMU where this all happened was given a date range, end of Nov to end of Dec (I don't remember the exact dates). We are free to go anytime during that range. The operator told us that the bull elk hunt is only 5 days long at the end of Sept or beginning of Oct. They sent my dad a brochure with rules, dates, a map, and other info, as well as a release to sign and mail back. It also had information for the guides, which was well worth it. The property is too large and you can't scout unless you use your "hunting days" to do it, because it is private property.

As for not intending to ever apply for a CWMU, I wouldn't completely write it off. This experience was weird, but I will apply for this CWMU again. Compared to the crowding and craziness of public land hunting, this was a nice compromise. Until I meet a landowner that gives us access to their property, this is pretty good.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Sounds like a bad deal. They obviously didn't know what they were doing. Sad that guys like that actually managed to kill 2 large bulls. Other people work their butts off and don't even get a shot.


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## highcountryfever (Aug 24, 2009)

b177y said:


> but depending how much meat this bull turns into, I may or may not even go. My parents and my own family are just finishing the cow I shot last year, and this bull is at least 100 lbs more of meat.


I would still go on the hunt. If you feel you would not be able to use the meat there are a number of ways to donate it or give it away. I know I would love to have someone give me elk meat. I ran out in the middle of the summer and didn't get a cow tag this year and am having serious cravings for an elk stake.


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## Mallardhead12 (Oct 17, 2011)

That is sad. Back to the long rage shooting, I would take a 40 yard bull over a 300 yard bull anyday.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Mallardhead12 said:


> That is sad. Back to the long rage shooting, I would take a 40 yard bull over a 300 yard bull anyday.


+1! It seems this is starting to be perpetuated by the industry. I've seen DVD's in Cabelas and Sportsmans that advertise "Long Range Hunting" "Extreme Range Shots" stuff like that. Seems pretty unethical IMO. That's just going to encourage people like this to take shots beyond their skill level. Even if you are confident in long range shots there are so many factors you truly can't control.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

In all reality a 300 or 400 yard shot isn't that long of a range. 

I will agree that I would rather be able to take a 30 yard shot than a 400 yard one but depending on just where you are hunting a 30 yard shot may be impossible where a 400 yard shot is the rule. 

These hunters made a couple of major mistakes. One the didn't make sure when there season was. The next one was either taking a shot at a elk with another one standing behind it where a pass through shot would hit the second elk or they just started to shoot at elk with antlers until one went down. All of these are mistakes in my book and with two hunters or one hunter and one spotter it shouldn't of happened.

Now for the long range shooting that is being hyped by both rifle and archery hunter, you'll never stop it. What is different when one hunter takes a 100 shot with a bow and arrow or one takes a 1000 yard shot with a rifle. They are both unethical in my book with no matter how much practice you do before hand.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Critter said:


> In all reality a 300 or 400 yard shot isn't that long of a range.


My thoughts exactly. 400 yds isn't all that far with a high powered rifle. Just have to know your bullet drop / characteristics. If it's calm or I have a head or tail wind, I'll take that shot any day with a high certainty of hitting where I intend to hit. Now, if there is a brisk cross wind, all bets are off. You just have to know your limitations.

I have a hard time believing these guys didn't know they weren't supposed to be hunting bulls. Especially since they didn't mention the other bull after the initial confrontation. I mean, the season was over for over a month! Just this year on the general hunt, I had two nice bulls (5x5 and 6x6) inside 400 yards and passed on the shots because I wasn't sure if they were on private property (CWMU) or public. Turns out, they were on public, so I'm kicking myself, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. It's on all of us to understand seasons and boundaries...especially in today's age of hunting.


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## Mallardhead12 (Oct 17, 2011)

Critter said:


> In all reality a 300 or 400 yard shot isn't that long of a range.
> 
> I will agree that I would rather be able to take a 30 yard shot than a 400 yard one but depending on just where you are hunting a 30 yard shot may be impossible where a 400 yard shot is the rule.


Yes, I agree, I take pride in my shooting skills and would take a 400 yard shot. Im just saying I would rather take a 40 yarder than a 400 yarder

Well, then again, I am mostly a muzzy hunter, but i hunt rifle too. :lol:


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Critter said:


> In all reality a 300 or 400 yard shot isn't that long of a range.


Your right...for some people, but for some, don't do it unless you know what your doing. As far as being unethical, in the hands of a well trained/practiced shooter, I strongly disagree. As always, sticking to your maximin point-blank range is always best. And be prepared to not shoot if the conditions aren't right.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> > In all reality a 300 or 400 yard shot isn't that long of a range.
> ...


I agree. I bet these guys knew exactly what they were doing...poaching!


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I obviously havent heard their side of the story but from what I have heard so far, "Poacher" was used way too strongly. I feel much worse for the two guys and their misunderstanding who took it like a man and will be paying for this for a while than I do the two bulls. Just my opinion.
With the mix up on the dates, I would like to know more of the story. On the shooting of two bulls out of the same herd, Unethical is better used than Poaching. He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone, comes to mind. It sounds like a Dumb mistake that hopefully he will learn from.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

elk22hunter said:


> I obviously havent heard their side of the story but from what I have heard so far, "Poacher" was used way too strongly. I feel much worse for the two guys and their misunderstanding who took it like a man and will be paying for this for a while than I do the two bulls. Just my opinion.


Accually I might have been a little too hasty calling them poachers. Good point elk22hunter.


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## b177y (Aug 30, 2011)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Mallardhead12 said:
> 
> 
> > That is sad. Back to the long rage shooting, I would take a 40 yard bull over a 300 yard bull anyday.
> ...


I guess I see the long range shooting arguments like this....

It's like driving. Everybody thinks that they are the best driver on the road, and everybody else is crazy.

Everybody taking a long range shot thinks that they are taking a great shot, but it's everybody else that needs to check their skills.

After witnessing this situation, and assuming that they told us the truth, the shooters ("poachers", whatever....) thought they took three great shots. That obviously wasn't the case.

The average hunter with average skills, which is most of us, shouldn't rely on long range shots. I have thought this for a while, but witnessing this made me a full believer. The hunting culture with DVD's and hunting shows showing "extreme" hunting is making this fad worse.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

b177y said:


> bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:
> 
> 
> > Mallardhead12 said:
> ...


I have a lot of respect for guys that practice and know their equipment very well. The guys that long range shoot put in a ton of time and money and hours. However, are we hunting? or are we assassinating? if 300 yards is as close as you can get and you've been practicing than go ahead and take the shot. But a lot of these shows the guys are purposefully setting up 800 yards away to snipe at animals,, just to push their products and shooting systems that are "out of the box" 1000 yard guns. not a good message to send. I know guys can make bad shots at 100 yards but a lot more variables come into play at longer ranges. plus it's fun getting close enough to where you can smell those elk. Different strokes for different folks I guess.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I will have to admit that I have seen more wounded and lost deer and elk with shots taken under 150 yards than I ever have on shot of 300+ yards.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So let me get this straight on the story -
-On your CWMU hunt, you were with the operator/guide, and came upon two guys with a dead bull elk.
-The guys knew they shot a bull elk, and knew they had shot AT a bull elk, and since they had a tag, they thought it was perfectly legal.
-They greeted you, very proud of the elk they had killed.
-The elk was tagged with a bull elk tag for that particular CWMU.
-The hunters did not try to hide the kill in any way, and inf act, were quite proud of their success.
-The hunters thought they were within the legal rules of the CWMU hunt.
-When informed they were not within the rules, they fully cooperated with the operator and law enforcement.
-The hunters had not realized they had hit two elk, but still took responsibility for both downed bulls.

Is that it? Where am I wrong, and what did I leave out?

If this pretty much summarizes the situation, I'm not sure I'd put the "poacher" label on them. Seems to me like a case where guys were ignorant of the rules they were to follow - totally on them. But this certainly doesn't sound like thrill-killing poachers, or guys conducting an illegal hunt. I'm not sure how the shooting distances is in any way relevant to the story. From what you described, the guys knew they were shooting at bull elk - it was not a case of mistaken identity due to distances. What am I missing?


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> From what you described, the guys knew they were shooting at bull elk - it was not a case of mistaken identity due to distances. What am I missing?


They only had one tag.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> I'm not sure how the shooting distances is in any way relevant to the story. From what you described, the guys knew they were shooting at bull elk - it was not a case of mistaken identity due to distances. What am I missing?


long distance + a group of bulls + firing at those elk at those long distances = multiple dead elk. I would say at longer distances it's harder to see how clear of a shot you have. Easier to make a mistake. I agree tho, I wouldn't lump these guys in with "poachers"


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So the follow up question to that. If the guys shot one bull in a group, and it got up and started running with the rest, and a follow-up shot hit a different bull, but they thought it was the same bull? From the first narrative, it sounded like they had no idea they had hit two bulls. Is that correct?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> So the follow up question to that. If the guys shot one bull in a group, and it got up and started running with the rest, and a follow-up shot hit a different bull, but they thought it was the same bull? From the first narrative, *it sounded like they had no idea they had hit two bulls. Is that correct?*


Not only that Gary, I recall the mention of the second bull being bigger horned than the first one. Poachers usually leave the small one and take the big one.

Are they guilty of being stupid? I'd say absolutely! Contact operator means CONTACT OPERATOR. You can't just think "I've hunted here for years so I know the rules". Rules change. CONTACT OPERATOR

Are guilty of being poaching? I don't think so. Just really dumb and they will pay for it.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

The other thing would be if they didn't contact the operator, then they were trespassing. A CWMU allows you on the land ONLY when the operator says you can be there. Nothing more. Nothing less. So anything outside of that agreed upon window would be trespassing.


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## b177y (Aug 30, 2011)

GaryFish said:


> So let me get this straight on the story -
> -On your CWMU hunt, you were with the operator/guide, and came upon two guys with a dead bull elk.


Yes.



GaryFish said:


> -The guys knew they shot a bull elk, and knew they had shot AT a bull elk, and since they had a tag, they thought it was perfectly legal.


Yes.



GaryFish said:


> -They greeted you, very proud of the elk they had killed.


Yes



GaryFish said:


> -The elk was tagged with a bull elk tag for that particular CWMU.


Yes.



GaryFish said:


> -The hunters did not try to hide the kill in any way, and inf act, were quite proud of their success.


Yes.



GaryFish said:


> -The hunters thought they were within the legal rules of the CWMU hunt.


Yes.



GaryFish said:


> -When informed they were not within the rules, they fully cooperated with the operator and law enforcement.


Yes.



GaryFish said:


> -The hunters had not realized they had hit two elk, but still took responsibility for both downed bulls.


Yes



GaryFish said:


> Is that it? Where am I wrong, and what did I leave out?


That pretty much sums it up.



GaryFish said:


> If this pretty much summarizes the situation, I'm not sure I'd put the "poacher" label on them. Seems to me like a case where guys were ignorant of the rules they were to follow - totally on them. But this certainly doesn't sound like thrill-killing poachers, or guys conducting an illegal hunt.


I tried to make it a point to not classify them as "thrill killers". They were fine stand-up fellows. That is why I also made it a point to use quotes around "poacher" every time I used the word. Unfortunately, a quick dictionary search comes up with, "A person who hunts or catches game or fish illegally," which is exactly what they were.



GaryFish said:


> I'm not sure how the shooting distances is in any way relevant to the story. From what you described, the guys knew they were shooting at bull elk - it was not a case of mistaken identity due to distances. What am I missing?


The distance is relevant because the rule of "be sure of your target and what is beyond it" was broken. The conditions that they described to us made it obvious that the shots should not have been fired. First light, a herd of five, and a stiff crosswind. There was absolutely no physical obstacles between where the shooter said that he took the shot and where the bulls were. No trees and the brush was only ankle deep and spotty, mostly dirt and low grass. There was only one hunter, with a cow and bull tag in his name. Even if it was legal to take a bull, he somehow shot a second one and didn't know it. If he was closer, the chances of seeing the wounded bull would have been better. Maybe if they were closer, the second bull would not have been hit at all. This is all speculation, but to me it seems likely that distance was a factor, along with all of my other _*opinions *_ I wrote in the OP.



GaryFish said:


> So the follow up question to that. If the guys shot one bull in a group, and it got up and started running with the rest, and a follow-up shot hit a different bull, but they thought it was the same bull? From the first narrative, it sounded like they had no idea they had hit two bulls. Is that correct?


Correct, no idea.



GaryFish said:


> The other thing would be if they didn't contact the operator, then they were trespassing. A CWMU allows you on the land ONLY when the operator says you can be there. Nothing more. Nothing less. So anything outside of that agreed upon window would be trespassing.


Another definition of "poacher" is, "Someone who hunts or fishes illegally on the property of another". So again, the word fits, even though they may not be the blood thirsty antler hungry POS poachers that leave meat to rot.

The CWMU rules are confusing, and each CWMU is different. This particular CWMU sent my father an information packet with dates for our cow hunt that were very clear. We also had to sign a liability release and send it back. So the shooter, or "poacher", should have at least had that information before hunting on this property.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Unless your in the military/police, YOUR NOT A SNIPER! I am a journeyman drywaller(apply whatever trade you are). I see work all the time from self taught "masters", who learned their "skill" from videos, or by doing a room or two. IT IS SAD AND UGLY!! The point, to pretend your a long range master because you own a gun that is capable of range, and you sit on a bench and poke paper, DOES NOT EQUAL SNIPER status! I elk hunt with an 06', it is capable of shots well over the 200yrds it is sighted for. At no point AM I CAPABLE of equaling its capability. I watch the same shows you do. The thought I always have, "I would be pizzed if I paid a guide and the closest he could get me was 800yrds".

These guys were technically poachers, the language is correct.

People make mistakes, these guys seem to have owned up to it, and good for them. I would hope that they get the Rulon Jones treatment(pretty much no penalty for similar out of season/boundary poaching).


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Long range shooting had nothing to do with this story. The fact that they shot two elk on accident was more carelessnes than anything. If they could see and shoot well enough to kill two bulls with three shots, it's clear to me that they weren't too far, just too careless. Heck, most people are lucky to bring down one bull with three shots from close range. 

I always laugh at those who put down long range shooting as not challenging and condone "getting close". News flash, getting close is easy compared to putting in the time, effort, and money to become a truly proficient long-rang marksman. I have taken deer with traditional archery equipment and long range equip. Both are very challenging, but there is much more involved in long range shooting. The biggest issue that gives long-range a black eye is that 99% of those who attempt it are simply not qualified to do so. Those who are put in hundreds of times more preparation effort than most other hunters. The funniest part is that most of those who bash it are the most ignorant to what it truly involves and simply have diharrea of the mouth.---------SS


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## b177y (Aug 30, 2011)

Remember, they didn't "kill" two bulls, they shot at one and gut-shot another that they didn't even know about. The bull that was gut-shot didn't die until he got three to the head. It was ugly and gruesome. The 400 yard shots were way to far to properly identify the target, as shown by the fact that they wounded a bull that made it 50 yards away from the dead bull, and they had no idea that it was there. This is also assuming that they were telling the truth.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

hossblur said:


> Unless your in the military/police, YOUR NOT A SNIPER! Realy? Snipers are 90% forwared observers, 10% shooters. You can't learn to shoot longerange without being in the military/SWAT? I am a journeyman drywaller(apply whatever trade you are). I see work all the time from self taught "masters", who learned their "skill" from videos, or by doing a room or two. IT IS SAD AND UGLY!! The point, to pretend your a long range master because you own a gun that is capable of range, and you sit on a bench and poke paper, DOES NOT EQUAL SNIPER status! I've been through sniper training, (I didn't make it, I went to "Fixedwing/rotorywing Incident Response in the "killbox" '90-'91) but I've been outshot by many guys with no military/cop experience. It's never the ones who show up in thier tactical pants bragging about how good they shoot but the ones who have thier notes out, cronograph and labeled loads out.
> I elk hunt with an 06', it is capable of shots well over the 200yrds it is sighted for. At no point AM I CAPABLE of equaling its capability. Then don't shoot. Stick to your point-black range. That's my standard preach on this forum. I watch the same shows you do. The thought I always have, "I would be pizzed if I paid a guide and the closest he could get me was 800yrds". These guys were technically poachers, the language is correct.
> 
> People make mistakes, these guys seem to have owned up to it, and good for them. I would hope that they get the Rulon Jones treatment(pretty much no penalty for similar out of season/boundary poaching).


Don't diss longerange shooting, It works well in capable hands. It's more of an ambush than hunting I admit, but it's like hunting out of a treestand, all your homework should be already done, all you have to do is sit there and wait.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

b177y said:


> Remember, they didn't "kill" two bulls, they shot at one and gut-shot another that they didn't even know about. The bull that was gut-shot didn't die until he got three to the head. It was ugly and gruesome. The 400 yard shots were way to far to properly identify the target.


While I agree with the concern regarding this story, I want to clear-up the long range part. How do you figure that 400 yards is too far to identify the target? Even with the most basic of optics, elk are easy to identify and aim at that far away. This tragedy had everything to do with ignorance and carelessness and nothing to do with the range at which the animals were shot. Long range is just a pet peeve of those who don't want to take the time, or go to the expense to become proficient. Hote to break it to you, but there are 1000 times more unethical shots taken within 200 yards than beyond. While I share the sadness of this "gruesome" story, I think we need to keep it in context.-----SS


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> I have taken deer with traditional archery equipment and long range equip. Both are very challenging, but there is much more involved in long range shooting.


True SS, traditional equiptment is easy. I hate to say it but all you have to do is stick out your arm, stare at that spot and release. Way easier than doing all the calculations with sights, range and all that other stuff. I love my longrange guns but my longbow takes me back to simplicity. I love it.


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## b177y (Aug 30, 2011)

I do not disagree about long range shooting working in capable hands. However, the amount of hunters that BELIEVE they are capable and the amount of hunters that ACTUALLY are capable is a different story.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

b177y said:


> I do not disagree about long range shooting working in capable hands. However, the amount of hunters that BELIEVE they are capable and the amount of hunters that ACTUALLY are capable is a different story.


Now we agree 100%!! Thanks for sharing this story. I believe that we all can use a little reminder sometimes that causes us to step back and re-commit to doing it right and most of all to become informed.--------SS


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Yup, and there is the rub. IF you have a gun capable of long range. IF you have good optics. IF you have the best ammo. IF you have all the electronics. IF you practice at those ranges. IF you have a spotter. IF, IF, IF. I have a nice, concealed pistol. I carry it in a very good tactical holster. I shoot hydrashocks. I go to the range and burn ammo. SOOO, I guess I am now Jeff Cooper! There are 90,000 deer hunters in Utah, I would bet that I have enough fingers to count the ammount of guys who have the gun, ammo, optics, electronics, etc( not to mention a place where the animals hang out in the open for that long). If you are one of the very few, THEN we can argue ethics, hunting/not hunting, but lets be real, more kids from utah made the NFL this year than those who are TRUELY capable of long range hunting, the rest of you just have the newest magnum(good on you I love new guns too).


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## b177y (Aug 30, 2011)

Springville Shooter said:


> Now we agree 100%!! Thanks for sharing this story. I believe that we all can use a little reminder sometimes that causes us to step back and re-commit to doing it right and most of all to become informed.--------SS


Well, maybe 90%. If we were hunting together I would still try to talk you out of taking a shot over 300 yards.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

That's all well and good on the long range thing. But those who are into long range, do not consider a 400 yard shot long range. At 400 yards on a bull elk, there should be no mistaken identity. I do not consider myself a long range shooter by any means. I lack the skill, commitment, capability, and equipment to do it. But a 400 yard shot is not out of the realm with my 30-06 and standard 3-9x40 scope. The farthest I've taken an animal with this rifle was shooting prone position, on a deer at 400 yards. An elk at 400 with an off-the-shelf standard rifle is doable with most shooters. This particular case as it has been described as a situation where the guys did not know they hit the other elk. And I can kind of see where they are coming from. I've hit elk, heck, I've hit deer at 100 yards and not had them go down or even flinch. I've not known I even hit them with a first shot, until upon field dressing them after a second shot, I found a second bullet hole.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

> Well, maybe 90%. If we were hunting together I would still try to talk you out of taking a shot over 300 yards.


300 YARDS!!! maybe if we were hunting bumble bees! Just joking. :lol: ------SS


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

b177y said:


> I do not disagree about long range shooting working in capable hands. However, the amount of hunters that BELIEVE they are capable and the amount of hunters that ACTUALLY are capable is a different story.


Oh man, did you just hit that on the head? Yes you did!
Trigger time tells you alot about your capabilities. My instuctor once said "you should be absolutely amazed you missed not suprised you hit". Lisa and I burned up over 4000 rounds last year.
Stick with your point-blank range. (have I said that before?)


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Another interesting fact is that most hunters can't tell distances. When they say that they took a 600 yard shot you can usually bet that it was under 200 yards. 75% of them out there have no idea of how far their bullet will drop at 600 yards much less at 300.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Critter said:


> Another interesting fact is that most hunters can't tell distances. When they say that they took a 600 yard shot you can usually bet that it was under 200 yards. 75% of them out there have no idea of how far their bullet will drop at 600 yards much less at 300.


You're right. I've been guessing/measuring yardages for many, many years. I'm still amazed at how far off I can be. Without a rangefinder or using the milradian-dot system I'm lost.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Critter said:


> Another interesting fact is that most hunters can't tell distances. When they say that they took a 600 yard shot you can usually bet that it was under 200 yards. 75% of them out there have no idea of how far their bullet will drop at 600 yards much less at 300.


Your statement proves that BASS PRO SHOPS has it right. There is a sign that hangs over the door that reads "WELCOME FISHERMEN, HUNTERS AND ALL OTHER LIARS".
:mrgreen: o-||

All kiding aside. My brother (an army sniper) taught me that distance becomes harder to gauge the further out you look. After 300 yards the yardage gets blury. Every subsequent 100 yards looks shorter than the previous to our eyes. Our brain however, tries to make them all look the same. Its the same effect when you are on a plane. If you look down 15K, 20K or 30K feet looks exactly the same to your eyes.

The best way to gauge distance is a range finder or your mil/moa reticle. and even the reticle can be deceiving. Most scopes have a SFP (second focal plane) reticle. The mildots/moa hashes only work at a predetermined magnification. That's because the reticle stays the same size as you run through the magnification.

A scope with a FFP (first focal plane) reticle is more reliable because the reticle magnifies along the entire range of the magnification. That makes all proportions remain the same and the mil dots/hash lines work exactly the same no matter what magnification you have your scope at.


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## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

Wow. I really feel sorry for the guys. Yes it was poor judgement to shoot too far (obvious that it was too far for him), and not to contact the operator. However, when all is said and done, I'd bet he will have been raked over the coals by the DWR. 

I'd really like to know the outcome of it all. How much will they pay? Will the DWR take his hunting privileges? For how long? Will he be a felon? Will it be labeled as poaching? If so, then the DWR is calling him a poacher, regardless of how you or I see the definition of "poacher". What a sad situation.


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