# The Philosophy of Hunting



## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

With a separate thread started on what philosophy is, and someone else already tackling the issue of ethics in hunting, now is a good time to talk about the philosophy of hunting.

The philosophy of hunting is completely independent of any religious, political, social, or activist considerations.

Philosophy is pure human thought and sound rationality applied to any question or issue faced by mankind or womankind or both.

Philosophy is independent of the limitations of science and scientific research, although philosophy cannot ignore scientific observations and data.

Philosophy is also independent of religious dogmas and doctrines no matter what they are. Religion has no superiority over philosophy.

Philosophy, Religion, and Science are completely independent of each other. Philosophy is completely speculative and bases its conclusions on logical possibility, whereas religion is strictly based on the utterances of certain men in certain capacities past or present. Science is the speculative inference of conclusions from data observed with precision instruments such as telescopes, microscopes, oscilloscopes, etc.

That's what philosophy is and is not, just by way of review.

Philosophy is also not part nor parcel of any fallacies. Fallacies are bad thinking which is emotional and illogical.

I think therefore I am.

I also think the first question for the topic of the philosophy of hunting is why do we each hunt?

Each of us probably has a different reason for doing so.

The most fundamental reason for hunting is from our ancestral Native Americans -- they hunted for the meat and the hides. They also used some bison heads in their ceremonies too.

For the Native North Americans, according to philosopher James Mannion in "Essentials Of Philosophy," the Native North Americans were in complete harmony with the land, and they only took from it what they needed, and never took more than it could afford to give them. This was a hallmark of the Native North Americans from the Rio Grande to the Arctic, and from the Atlantic shoreline to the Pacific coast. Never has any people on this Earth anywhere been in better harmony with their environment than they were.

There are certainly lots of other reasons for hunting, but hunting for the meat to put food on the table is the most ancient and fundamental reason for hunting. As a philosophy it has stood the tests of time for millennia and eons.

Everyone has their own reason(s) for hunting -- probably several.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

My dad and my older cousin taught me never to kill anything that I did not plan to eat, and also never to waste any meat once I had killed and cooked it. Since this has been ingrained in me from the age of 5 years old it is a powerful influence. It is a corollary to hunting, and more relative to sanctity of life than just about hunting alone.

This idea seems consistent with the Native North American practice of living in harmony with the land rather than exploiting it.

As such this idea seems self evident.

It does not cover depredation hunting of course, which is itself rather more closely related to self defense practices for one's self and one's own animals and livestock.

Depredation hunting is yet another viable good reason for hunting even though you are probably not going to eat the meat itself.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Hunting is fun! Most youngsters learn this from their fathers and brothers and cousins. But there are lots of things that can be fun which are not necessarily justified. That hunting is fun is not a really good reason for hunting, although since hunting is fun this encourages people to hunt whenever they get a chance, if they are inclined towards the outdoors and the shooting sports, whether shooting lead or shooting arrows.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Hunting makes you self sufficient. Anyone who has brought food home from the field or stream knows the primordial feeling of satisfaction from bringing home meat with your own hook, line, pole, spear, arrow, or bullets. It actually pains me that the non-hunting population has no idea about this feeling. They do their hunting at shopping malls and supermarkets. They hunt, they just don't hunt the way hunters hunt.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Hunting brings back memories for me. Although many of my past hunting companions like my dad and some of my cousins and friends are gone to those happy hunting grounds in the sky, when I hunt I am reminded of hunting trips from the past with each of them.

Base camp at my vehicle at the trail head is a place with a warm campfire, lawn furniture, a big tent, air mattresses, warm sleeping bags, ample water and food, and the starry sky above. Owls screeching in the night, coyotes howling at dusk and dawn, critters scampering around in the night scratching on the sides of the tent, an occasional coyote raid on the neighbors who did not clean up their campsite before bedtime -- these things are all reminiscent of years and decades of hunting with family and friends. Solo hunting trips bring back many memories of these past worlds.

I always bring some big marshmallows with me to toast over the campfire too.

Where have all the older people gone?

Gone to graveyards everyone.

Gone to flowers everyone.

Young girls pick them everyone.

Memories ... this is also one of the reasons I hunt.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Hunting makes you stronger and teaches you how to actually defend yourself.

If you can take the shot on a game animal and make it count, you can also take the shot -- with appropriate tactical training -- on an assailant who is trying to rob or attack you.

Girls and women who hunt are less likely to tolerate abuse or crimes against themselves.

Boys and men who hunt make really good soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen -- always have and always will.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

Karl...Generally speaking to yourself is something to be concerned about, even when discussing philosophy...


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Where have all the older people gone?

Gone to graveyards everyone.

Gone to flowers everyone.

Young girls pick them everyone.

Karl who sang this song?


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)




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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Ah gdog I wanted Karl to see if he knew. I think he is an old hippie gone straight.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Dunkem said:


> Ah gdog I wanted Karl to see if he knew. I think he is an old hippie gone straight.


To be perfectly honest with you and confess, I was a ******* Gator gone far right wing extremist gone hippy and now gone Nonpartisan/Unaffiliated.

The Native American chapter in James Mannion's book "Essentials Of Philosophy" have won me over, and so like Kevin Costner portrays in "Dances With Wolves" I have turned *****.

I need to find me some peyote buttons.

And I need to find me a good squaw too.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

By the way, you guys are all supposed to each chime in with "why you hunt."

Then we can discuss and debate it.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Karl said:


> By the way, you guys are all supposed to each chime in with "why you hunt."
> 
> Then we can discuss and debate it.


Ok, I'll bite.

I hunt because there is something inside me that motivates me to. The entire hunting experience resonates me and fills an inner void that I have for some reason. I'm not entirely sure where it comes from, but I suspect it is an instinct that remains from the time when the survival of our species depended on successful hunting.

Like you, I can't justify it without eating what I kill. I try to show respect for life and the game I pursue, and eating what I kill is one way to do that. Another is to do everything I can to ensure my quarry experiences a quick death.

I also view my hunting trips as an investment in my health. The exercise I get while hunting is physically healthy. So is wild game meat. The meat I eat has to come from somewhere, and I feel better about eating a wild animal I kill myself than one that was raised in a pasture and filled with antibiotics, hormones, etc.

Hunting is good for my mental health. Anyone who knows me can tell you I'm happier and more motivated during hunting season than I am during the summer off-season.

Humans tend to like hunting. My grandma hunts for bargains at the store, my college buddies hunt for women, some hunt for fame, fortune, credentials, etc. I just prefer to do it in the woods, with a gun.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Clarq said:


> Ok, I'll bite.
> 
> I hunt because there is something inside me that motivates me to. The entire hunting experience resonates me and fills an inner void that I have for some reason. I'm not entirely sure where it comes from, but I suspect it is an instinct that remains from the time when the survival of our species depended on successful hunting.
> 
> ...


... aka "primordial instinct."

I feel this most when I am spearfishing while breath-hold diving in the sea.

It's the spear.

I sometimes feel it too with the recurve bow and arrows, although the spear is even more primitive.

I have to wonder how many tens of thousands of years had to pass before the bow and arrows took the place of the spear?

With my 300 RUM bolt action scoped rifle, nothing in North America stands a chance, so it does not seem as primordial as with the spear for fish or as the bow and arrow for rabbits and deer.

With the rifle it is mostly about the meat, for me.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Karl said:


> By the way, you guys are all supposed to each chime in with "why you hunt."
> 
> Then we can discuss and debate it.


That is exactly the problem. It's great to discuss our reasons for why we hunt, however, there is nothing to debate.

One person's reason is as legitimate as any other so debating it would be pointless and a disservice to the reasons we hold dear.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

We can debate if the Native North Americans had the best reason.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

Karl said:


> We can debate if the Native North Americans had the best reason.


But some of us don't enjoy the debate.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I grew up with a lot of Yazzies, Whitehorses, Yellowhorses, Begays, Jims, and a few Clahs. Never heard them speak of harmony with the land the way your book does.

In fact, I think I've heard more responsible sportsmen talk like that than Native North Americans.

I don't know, maybe it's just a generational thing...


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

At Fort Sill OKLA where I lived as a kid, I had a few Comanche friends.

The Comanche's moved into this area sometime during the 1800's. It was originally Wichita country.

There is a rich Comanche heritage on the reservations of the Wichita Mountains Wildlife Refuge. There are even herds of bison there too. Lots of beautiful country with deer and elk too -- a hunter's paradise.

These friends did not say much about their heritage. They were trying to assimilate.

There were also a lot of half breed whites there too -- one very pretty girl whom I remember distinctly who lived on my street. Her dad was white and her mom was Comanche. We considered her white like us although her bronze complexion was a bid different. She was completely assimilated and also an honors student at the middle school with really high grades.

We moved away from there my first year of high school to NATO in Europe.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Why do I hunt, you ask? Are you sure you truly want to know?

Ok.

As a small child my favorite past time was catching flies and pulling their wings off to watch them scramble in the dirt near an anthill, until the ants found their feast. It is curious, most of the time the ants will go directly behind the eyes of the fly and sever the connection to the thorax with a single bite. I then discovered the joys of catching pill bugs and placing them inside of a ring of upturned duct tape. Oh how I'd laugh as the insects would get stuck in their attempts to escape, eventually pulling so hard as to rip their own legs out to get free! 

Finally, at age three, I was with my dad when he shot a cow elk. After he pulled the guts out he joked that I could climb right inside! When I did, I finally realized that I was where I wanted to be. I emerged with a heightened sense of awareness, of purpose, dripping with blood and ambition from head to toe. 

The Voice started speaking to me that day. 

Why do I hunt, you ask? Why do I giggle with every squeeze of the trigger as I watch that jackrabbit explode when 220 grains of lead rips through its body sending its head spiraling 30 feet into the sky? Why do I sit in sadistic silence, grinning as I watch an animal's fear filled eyes slowly fade into nothing more than dead tissue? Why is it with every dying gasp, the Voice slowly retreats to its dark corner in my mind? Why is it with the final spasm of life as I squeeze the neck of a duck that it passes into my body in a quiver of pure ecstasy? Why is it that I'm only truly alive when reveling in the gore of the death of another? Why is it that causing and watching the struggle of another living being is the one thing that brings me solace and relief? Why?

Simple. 

It keeps me from doing the same to random people I pass every day.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> Why do I hunt, you ask? Are you sure you truly want to know?
> 
> Ok.
> 
> ...


 :behindsofa:


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

You're scaring me johnnycake:shock::O—–-:


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

bowgy said:


> You're scaring me johnnycake:shock::O---:


Johnny, I don't think you're invited to my hunting camp anymore...:shock:


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I think johnny is just being the vice to the romantic and "spiritual" side of the why he hunts...


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

High Desert Elk said:


> I think johnny is just being the vice to the romantic and "spiritual" side of the why he hunts...


Sure, rush to his defense.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Idratherbehunting said:


> Sure, rush to his defense.


Now, now you wouldn't want me to get angry would you?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I know who Johnny is voting for in the election:










-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)




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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Idratherbehunting said:


> Sure, rush to his defense.


I think it's funny, actually.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

High Desert Elk said:


> Idratherbehunting said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, rush to his defense.
> ...


Ya, I've read the Johnny post 3 times now first time was " HA!!....ya.... ugh.... some of that.... me too (minus that last statement)...uh. ..I guess....uh....dang, I can't believe he said that on the Internet though..."

Second time " hahaha haha hohoho hehehe"

Third time, I am laughing so hard my wife is staring and rolling her eyes at me and thinking that I may need some help.

Great post!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I knew I wasn't alone in this psychosis.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

johnnycake said:


> Why do I hunt, you ask? Are you sure you truly want to know?
> 
> Ok.
> 
> ...


Ants and flies are the Earth's garbage collectors.

But ants getting into your home calls for drastic measures -- Raid insect killer.

And if the ants are swarming outside I will use gasoline on them, which soaks into the cracks in the cement and kills them down to their breeding lair. It may take 2 applications.

For flies I practice catch and release.

For spiders I use Raid too if they are inside the house. They are hard to catch and release.

Renee Descartes would agree with you Johnny about crawling inside of the cow elk. He crawled inside of a Dutch oven for the same reason. He came out the father of modern philosophy.

For your other reasons Johnny you would have made a truly great US Marine. And if that was too easy for you then you could also have applied to Navy SEAL school. USMC training is 3 to 9 months depending on your job. Navy SEAL school is another 9 months on top of that. If you can survive all that training then you are America's finest. You seem focused enough to do it.

They need guys like you.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Oh but Karl you mistake me. What good am I to the military if I see myself as the highest authority? What is more godlike than walking up to a fawn as it struggles to run on its broken legs and standing on its neck, hearing the cartilage groan and crackle underfoot just to ease off when the thrashing slows so that it can regain its fight vainly trying to bleat for help from its mother through its ruined throat just so you can reach down and rip out its larynx with your bare hands then lift its head to look squarely in its eye as you grin it away into the abyss, fondly remembering your mother's good night kisses as a young boy? 

Why listen to the barking of some drill sergeant, when you can sooth and appease the Voice with the comforting whisper of swinging a pillowcase full of newborn kittens into the trunk of that apple tree you planted with your grandfather as a child, allowing yourself to paint the wooden canvas with the fetal juices of the pure, and allow the lone survivor to drag it's hind legs across the pavement with all the finesse of Rembrandt's brush itself? There is nothing quite like the sharp, metallic scent of blood, cerebral and fetal fluids to conjure the holiday spirit.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

My uncle was supposedly a normal guy until he went to law school. Johnnycake seemed like a normal guy until he went to law school. 

Coincidence? I think not. Aspiring lawyers, beware.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

High Desert Elk said:


> I think it's funny, actually.


As do I.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I dunno Johnnycake, but when reading your post I could hear some dueling banjos in the background.......:scared:


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

johnnycake, do we need to contact your family and make sure that they lock up your trench coat and AR15?

You are still scaring me//dog//


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)




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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Oh yeah, the philosophy to hunting is to survive. Plain and simple. Today it's to have fun. The benfit is good table fare and maybe, just maybe, a nice set of horns.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Clarq said:


> My uncle was supposedly a normal guy until he went to law school. Johnnycake seemed like a normal guy until he went to law school.
> 
> Coincidence? I think not. Aspiring lawyers, beware.


The USMC needs lawyers too.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

johnnycake said:


> Oh but Karl you mistake me. What good am I to the military if I see myself as the highest authority? What is more godlike than walking up to a fawn as it struggles to run on its broken legs and standing on its neck, hearing the cartilage groan and crackle underfoot just to ease off when the thrashing slows so that it can regain its fight vainly trying to bleat for help from its mother through its ruined throat just so you can reach down and rip out its larynx with your bare hands then lift its head to look squarely in its eye as you grin it away into the abyss, fondly remembering your mother's good night kisses as a young boy?
> 
> Why listen to the barking of some drill sergeant, when you can sooth and appease the Voice with the comforting whisper of swinging a pillowcase full of newborn kittens into the trunk of that apple tree you planted with your grandfather as a child, allowing yourself to paint the wooden canvas with the fetal juices of the pure, and allow the lone survivor to drag it's hind legs across the pavement with all the finesse of Rembrandt's brush itself? There is nothing quite like the sharp, metallic scent of blood, cerebral and fetal fluids to conjure the holiday spirit.


I'm just pointing out that the USMC and the USN SEAL teams need guys like you.

I have heard Nam vet Marines talk about the VC the same way you talk about animals.

The purpose is to de-humanize peoples so that you can kill them with no feelings or regrets.

You definitely have the right mind set for that.

I suspect that if you are a trial lawyer then you feel the same way about your courtroom opponents as you advocate on behalf of your clients.

Subordination is a relative thing that everyone needs to work out on their own regarding themselves and the other 7 billion people on this planet we inhabit together.

If you are in business for yourself then your clients are your bosses. You need to listen to them barking at you if you want to get paid. You can fire some of them if you wish but not all of them. Some of them will stick around to be your bosses. The state bar will also be one of your bosses and if your violate their applied philosophy ethics they will can you in a heartbeat.

Everyone has bosses. Drill sergeants are not the only bosses.

As far as animals go, I do not think of buck deer as anything but meat for my table. Same with pigs. Same with elk. Same with caribou. Same with mountain goats or mountain sheep.

But whales, dolphins, elephants, rino's, hippo's, horses, bears, wolves, big cats, small cats, and dogs all seem somewhat human to me and killing them would be like killing a human for me -- I would need an extremely good reason like self defense or euthanasia.

And I don't kill doe's or fawns without a really good reason either. Doe's are deer factories, and fawns don't have much meat on them.

Like I alluded to before, if you want to prove you are really a Billy Badazz, you need to have survived at least USMC training first, or prove it beyond any doubt by surviving USN SEAL school too. Talk is cheap and really easy to do.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Or just maybe Karl, I'm using Comedy of the Grotesque as a technique to show what I truly think of your philosophical blathering? What better treatment for the vainglories and hubris herein expressed than Theater of the Absurd? 

Why do I hunt? Because I enjoy the sharp scent of rotting aspen leaves crushed underfoot, scored by the staccato snappings of the frost covered blades of grass. I hunt to bask in the sublime radiance of a late October sunrise, to enjoy the stinging burn of simultaneous heat and cold as I struggle to keep my eyes open. I enjoy the thrill of spotting that patch of fur, partially concealed in the conifers of the next ridge confirming my suspicions and validating my efforts. I yearn for the deafening beats of my heart in my ears as I attempt to still my every muscle, willing my very breath to stop while the quarry glances my way. I live for that singular moment in time when the recoil has yet to pull my vision out of the scope's picture, emblazoning the final image of the shot to seal my future triumph or agony. That surprisingly soft, supple strength that I feel as I stroke the neck of the life I just took, fighting the internal struggle of elation and remorse knowing that its death better ensures my life. The peak of the sacrosanct is found in the bittersweet end of the struggle between man and beast, and the joy is found in the hopeful uncertainty of the trigger not yet pulled. 

You want to know why I hunt? Well, the truth is somewhere herein and I don't give a flying rats furry a$$hole what you think about my motivations. But certainly, the tender sweetness and quick processing makes slaughtering fawns and calves that much easier. Happiness is a whole elk calf hind quarter slowly roasting on an open flame, surrounded by those who most appreciate the hallowed horror we all commit.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

johnnycake said:


> Or just maybe Karl, I'm using Comedy of the Grotesque as a technique to show what I truly think of your philosophical blathering? What better treatment for the vainglories and hubris herein expressed than Theater of the Absurd?
> 
> Why do I hunt? Because I enjoy the sharp scent of rotting aspen leaves crushed underfoot, scored by the staccato snappings of the frost covered blades of grass. I hunt to bask in the sublime radiance of a late October sunrise, to enjoy the stinging burn of simultaneous heat and cold as I struggle to keep my eyes open. I enjoy the thrill of spotting that patch of fur, partially concealed in the conifers of the next ridge confirming my suspicions and validating my efforts. I yearn for the deafening beats of my heart in my ears as I attempt to still my every muscle, willing my very breath to stop while the quarry glances my way. I live for that singular moment in time when the recoil has yet to pull my vision out of the scope's picture, emblazoning the final image of the shot to seal my future triumph or agony. That surprisingly soft, supple strength that I feel as I stroke the neck of the life I just took, fighting the internal struggle of elation and remorse knowing that its death better ensures my life. The peak of the sacrosanct is found in the bittersweet end of the struggle between man and beast, and the joy is found in the hopeful uncertainty of the trigger not yet pulled.
> 
> You want to know why I hunt? Well, the truth is somewhere herein and I don't give a flying rats furry a$$hole what you think about my motivations. But certainly, the tender sweetness and quick processing makes slaughtering fawns and calves that much easier. Happiness is a whole elk calf hind quarter slowly roasting on an open flame, surrounded by those who most appreciate the hallowed horror we all commit.


Ok so you were just pretending.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> Or just maybe Karl, I'm using Comedy of the Grotesque as a technique to show what I truly think of your philosophical blathering? What better treatment for the vainglories and hubris herein expressed than Theater of the Absurd?
> 
> Why do I hunt? Because I enjoy the sharp scent of rotting aspen leaves crushed underfoot, scored by the staccato snappings of the frost covered blades of grass. I hunt to bask in the sublime radiance of a late October sunrise, to enjoy the stinging burn of simultaneous heat and cold as I struggle to keep my eyes open. I enjoy the thrill of spotting that patch of fur, partially concealed in the conifers of the next ridge confirming my suspicions and validating my efforts. I yearn for the deafening beats of my heart in my ears as I attempt to still my every muscle, willing my very breath to stop while the quarry glances my way. I live for that singular moment in time when the recoil has yet to pull my vision out of the scope's picture, emblazoning the final image of the shot to seal my future triumph or agony. That surprisingly soft, supple strength that I feel as I stroke the neck of the life I just took, fighting the internal struggle of elation and remorse knowing that its death better ensures my life. The peak of the sacrosanct is found in the bittersweet end of the struggle between man and beast, and the joy is found in the hopeful uncertainty of the trigger not yet pulled.
> 
> You want to know why I hunt? Well, the truth is somewhere herein and I don't give a flying rats furry a$$hole what you think about my motivations. But certainly, the tender sweetness and quick processing makes slaughtering fawns and calves that much easier. Happiness is a whole elk calf hind quarter slowly roasting on an open flame, surrounded by those who most appreciate the hallowed horror we all commit.


Another great post. Although, much less humorous than the first one.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

3arabians said:


> Another great post. Although, much less humorous than the first one.


Why thank you, but I personally am partial to either the bit about calming the bunny first before squishing it or the second one on this thread. Gave myself more than one demented chuckle about them.

And Karl, I did respond. I said somewhere in my responses here lies the truth.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Karl said:


> Ok so you are just pretending.
> 
> Fine.
> 
> Now tell us why you really hunt.


Many animals are now dead because of johnnycake, "at this point, what difference does it make"


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

As I look back on my short life, and I stare down those hallowed halls paved with the agonized screams of countless victims, a slow smile creeps up the left side of my face. I have more decorating to do yet.


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