# KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifieds!



## Huge29

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=13
My ads are all gone as are my favorites I had marked. I sure hope it is an error, but all of the other categories are there, just what we feared. They were there a few hours ago.


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## coyoteslayer

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Here is the reason why.....

Like everyone else in the country, the management of KSL is profoundly saddened by the tragedy in Connecticut. In the wake of this and other similar incidents, important questions have been raised about the ease of access to guns. These questions deserve time for careful consideration and we are confident that an appropriate resolution will be found. Accordingly, KSL has temporarily suspended firearms listings on KSL.com classifieds. We recognize that this may inconvenience responsible citizens who have used this service, but we feel this is an important step while these broader societal issues are examined.


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## Catherder

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Probably an overreaction, but I can't say that I'm surprised. :roll:


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## DallanC

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Full article:

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&si ... ments=true

-DallanC


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## Mojo1

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

**** all my links to KSL were just deleted, guess I won't be visiting them anymore.


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## Huge29

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I just got the following email:


> Dear KSL Classifieds customer,
> 
> Like everyone else in the country, the management of KSL is profoundly saddened by the tragedy in Connecticut. In the wake of this and other similar incidents, important questions have been raised about the ease of access to guns. These questions deserve time for careful consideration and we are confident that an appropriate resolution will be found. Accordingly, KSL has temporarily suspended firearms listings on KSL.com classifieds. We recognize that this may inconvenience responsible citizens who have used this service, but we feel this is an important step while these broader societal issues are examined.
> 
> You have received this message because you currently have at least one listing in the affected categories - as part of this decision your listing has been suspended. If you have paid to feature your listings please reach out to your respective account executive to work through refunds for the remaining days in the month.
> 
> We appreciate your patience and understanding while we evaluate our options.
> 
> We value your insight, please send feedback to [email protected]
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> KSL Classifieds Team


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## Bax*

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I just got an e-mail on this. Bummer 

Now my firearms that I meant to sell are no longer available to sell.... my wife is gonna be pizzed


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## Dunkem

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

_O\ **O** come on boys lets post um up here :!:


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## martymcfly73

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

There's also an article in the nydaily news about this. I don't have a link from my phone. Looks like you can thank mayor Bloomberg.


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## Birdbow

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I hate to see that section go and hope that to some extent it comes back. I have bought, sold and traded alot of guns through there the last few years. I think something needed to happen in some degree as I know I had alot of "questionable people" show up to look at or call on a gun and I would turn them away going off my gutt instinct. Who knows how many guns off KSL ended up in illegals or felons hands though?


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## Cooky

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Birdbow said:


> I hate to see that section go and hope that to some extent it comes back. I have bought, sold and traded alot of guns through there the last few years. I think something needed to happen in some degree as I know I had alot of "questionable people" show up to look at or call on a gun and I would turn them away going off my gutt instinct. Who knows how many guns off KSL ended up in illegals or felons hands though?


No gun purchased on KSL has ever been used in a crime. Just because it could possibly happen isn't reason enough to end the ads. There is heck of a lot of criminal activity goes on via the car ads but that seems to be okay. The main point we should take from KSL's action is that they don't want gun owner's business.


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## Fowlmouth

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Cooky said:


> The main point we should take from KSL's action is that they don't want gun owner's business.


Neither does Walmart or Dicks Sporting goods.........


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## M Gayler

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

KSL can now officially kiss my ASS!


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## tshuntin

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I don't really blame them. I would guess this is somewhat temporary as a reaction, but we'll see. I have bought and sold several guns on KSL. It was a great service to do so. I also would never do so again and did on my last one, without requiring the purchaser to have a CC license. Folks, I understand a little bit about getting upset that this service is gone from KSL, but to get too worked up over it seems silly. It was a service, and a service that none of us paid anything for.


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## Al Hansen

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I'm sorry that it has come to this. I also lost an ad . Dang it , the crazys are ruining it for everyone.


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## Huge29

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I wonder if some entrepreneur will pick this up and start their own, maybe KUTV or whatever channel 4 is now??? Good time to pick up a big piece of traffic I would think.


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## silversurfer

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Next up the list will be auto sale, alot people getting kill in them these days.


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## Bo0YaA

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Huge29 said:


> I wonder if some entrepreneur will pick this up and start their own, maybe KUTV or whatever channel 4 is now??? Good time to pick up a big piece of traffic I would think.


Somebody already jumped on the opportunity. http://utahguns.com/index.php


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## Huge29

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

261 comments in just about three hours; that is a pretty active comment board on the page explaining the suspension. I have never seen an article generate so many comments so quickly. http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&si ... ments=true


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## huntingbuddy

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



silversurfer said:


> Next up the list will be auto sale, alot people getting kill in them these days.


+1


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## Gee LeDouche

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I would highly suggest writting KSL and letting them know how you feel. I did!

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=206


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## Utahguns

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Bo0YaA said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if some entrepreneur will pick this up and start their own, maybe KUTV or whatever channel 4 is now??? Good time to pick up a big piece of traffic I would think.
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody already jumped on the opportunity. http://utahguns.com/index.php
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link Bo0YaA. We have been around for awhile now but never had much traffic. I started Utahguns.com because I had a feeling we would need a good alternative to KSL sooner or later.

I have been a daily user of the firearms section for years and am sad to see it go. The volume of listings and shoppers there makes it an amazing place to buy or sell. However I must say IMHO Utahguns.com is a much better place because it was built specifically for firearm sales.

Your listings can be searched by make, model, caliber, etc. you can embed video and the pictures are amazing. Check it out and please help me improve the site by submitting feedback. I know there are some problems but I need help identifying them. Looking forward to seeing you all there!


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## .45

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



martymcfly73 said:


> There's also an article in the nydaily news about this. I don't have a link from my phone. Looks like you can thank mayor Bloomberg.


Bloomberg hate's the NRA....Now would be a good time to re-new memberships or join.

I'm sorry to see KSL follow the sheep, I always thought they had enough guts to stand up and make a statement. Not fall down. They should be ashamed of themselves...

Now I'm wondering about the owners of this forum....how will they stand?


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## TopofUtahArcher

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I tried the utahguns.com link and it comes up blank. I will try in another browser.


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## sagebrush

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

utahguns are you going to let the local stores use your site to sell there guns? on ksl that is all it was mostly kinda of annoying. there was also a lot of duplicate ads. i just feel that a store should not use something like this for free advertising.


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## highcountryfever

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Utahguns said:


> Your listings can be searched by make, model, caliber, etc. you can embed video and the pictures are amazing. Check it out and please help me improve the site by submitting feedback. I know there are some problems but I need help identifying them. Looking forward to seeing you all there!


The listings don't show up when I am using Google Chrome, but work in internet explorer and firefox. Don't know how easy that is to fix but I thought you should be aware of it.

****Edit - Just kidding about that. My ad blocker was causing that. I excluded your page from my add blocker and it works great on chrome.


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## COOPERD

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I just looked on the trading post here, expected to see more ads.


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## hunter9893

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I expect that it will come back. However in the mean time why not do as COOPERD suggested and use this forum for private gun sales?


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## duckhunter1096

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I'm not shocked. I, for one, have always wondered about the gun shows & classified ads, as a means to purchase guns. When I go buy a gun at a gun dealer, I have to go through a background check, as I don't have a Conceal Carry permit. For what it's worth, I HAPPILY agree to this check. It puts my mind at ease a little bit more. I'm not saying make it illegal for this type of transaction to take place, it just hasn't ever made any sense to me.

I don't have any statistics, but of all of the crimes committed with firearms every year, how many of the guns have been used by the person who purchased them through a dealer, versus someone buying them from Joe Citizen, or worse... Stealing them from Joe Citizen?


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## Springville Shooter

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

The biggest mistakes are always made when knee-jerk reactions prevail. The masses are sheeple who perputuate a tragedy by throwing the fundemental freedoms of MILLIONS of good Americans in response to what a very few criminals decide to do. The actions of KSL, Wal-Mart, and Dicks will only effect the good, law-abiding citizen having no impact on future crimes that will continue to happen regardless.------SS


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## klbzdad

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Those businesses and even KSL has a right to sell or not sell something just like WE have the right to buy, sell, watch, listen to, read, or invest in these businesses or media outlets. We are arguing for our 2nd amendment rights but remember, media needs US to maintain their 1st amendment rights. They'll get it if you stop spending money or paying attention to them.

In the meantime, here ya go:

http://www.utahguns.com/


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## GaryFish

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

KSL's site has been nice. But it is also a FREE service, provided by a PRIVATE company. They can choose what to allow or not allow on their site. I have no issue if they want to drop the firearms classifieds. That is up to them as a private company.


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## Utahguns

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



sagebrush said:


> utahguns are you going to let the local stores use your site to sell there guns? on ksl that is all it was mostly kinda of annoying. there was also a lot of duplicate ads. i just feel that a store should not use something like this for free advertising.


Sage, I have used KSL firearms classifieds daily for several years. I have the same frustrations as everyone. I did my best on a very limited budget to create a classified site with the features I felt were lacking on KSL.

I also believe that business listings don't belong on classified sites. That's not why people are there. If Utahguns.com gets traction they will try to come and if they do I will create a section just for them. There is value in having a place where they can post sales, new inventory or whatever else they think the public wants to see. Just not in the classified listings.


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## Longfeather

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



GaryFish said:


> KSL's site has been nice. But it is also a FREE service, provided by a PRIVATE company. They can choose what to allow or not allow on their site. I have no issue if they want to drop the firearms classifieds. That is up to them as a private company.


Yes, KSL can do what they want as can all of us. I sent them a e-mail telling them I will not watch, listen to or visit any KSL site or stations until they put the firearms listing back up.

It is their choice to make, serve thier customers or bow down to the anti-gun crowd.


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## Treehugnhuntr

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Sorry if it's already been posted.

http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/1.1018385

Similar articles were published in many outlets.


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## highcountryfever

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Utahguns said:


> I also believe that business listings don't belong on classified sites. That's not why people are there. If Utahguns.com gets traction they will try to come and if they do I will create a section just for them. There is value in having a place where they can post sales, new inventory or whatever else they think the public wants to see. Just not in the classified listings.


I would get a section up and going for businesses ASAP. It is great to limit the classified section to private sales only, but in the end you will hamper what you are trying to do by not allowing a section for business listings. They are already here and not providing a place will either make them go to other sites or simply lie that they are a business and list anyway.


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## longbow

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Springville Shooter said:


> The biggest mistakes are always made when knee-jerk reactions prevail. The masses are sheeple who perputuate a tragedy by throwing the fundemental freedoms of MILLIONS of good Americans in response to what a very few criminals decide to do. The actions of KSL, Wal-Mart, and Dicks will only effect the good, law-abiding citizen having no impact on future crimes that will continue to happen regardless.------SS


I couln't have said it better myself
+100


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## GaryFish

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Seems like KSL took the listings down before. and then put them back up later, with no fanfare. It'll probably happen again. Same with Walmart. A few years ago, they quit selling long guns of any kind. Then slowly and without much notice, they had them again.


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## sagebrush

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Utahguns said:


> sagebrush said:
> 
> 
> 
> utahguns are you going to let the local stores use your site to sell there guns? on ksl that is all it was mostly kinda of annoying. there was also a lot of duplicate ads. i just feel that a store should not use something like this for free advertising.
> 
> 
> 
> Sage, I have used KSL firearms classifieds daily for several years. I have the same frustrations as everyone. I did my best on a very limited budget to create a classified site with the features I felt were lacking on KSL.
> 
> I also believe that business listings don't belong on classified sites. That's not why people are there. If Utahguns.com gets traction they will try to come and if they do I will create a section just for them. There is value in having a place where they can post sales, new inventory or whatever else they think the public wants to see. Just not in the classified listings.
Click to expand...

thanks for doing what you can


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## DallanC

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

KSL is owned by the LDS church and the LDS church has never been very pro-gun friendly, going out of their way to restrict fireams on all their properties. Its surprising the gun section lasted as long as it did.

-DallanC


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## Huge29

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



TopofUtahArcher said:


> I tried the utahguns.com link and it comes up blank. I will try in another browser.


I could not see any listings with Firefox, but it works ok with Explorer.


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## one hunting fool

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

As a result of KSL's actions we need to send them a clear message from the hunting community of our displeasure. I suggest that you start with a message sent to the "contact us" on their website. This is a copy of the one I sent them this morning.

" I am very disappointed at the actions of KSL to suspend the rights of all Americans to buy, sell, and own firearms as is our second amendment rights. Although I feel your concerns of access to guns in the wake of the tragedy, I feel your actions are sending the wrong message to your viewers both as a corporation and an American. As a result my family and I are not going to be using your website, watching your TV programs or contributing causes supported by your corporation. Your website provided a service, and discrimination of any kind to your public is the wrong message to send and will not be tolerated or condoned."

I hope you will join me and help restore our 2nd amendment rights.


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## Fishracer

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

"Any society that would give up freedom to gain security deserves neither and will lose both" Benjamin Franklin


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## Duckholla

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



GaryFish said:


> KSL's site has been nice. But it is also a FREE service, provided by a PRIVATE company. They can choose what to allow or not allow on their site. I have no issue if they want to drop the firearms classifieds. That is up to them as a private company.


You're absolutely right Gary, they have that choice, and exercising that choice isn't what bothers me. It's the public statement that they are making while exercising that choice. They say, "due to the recent tragedies in Connecticut we are suspending our gun classified ads..." Their statement is, "We agree that guns are the issue." That bothers me...

Rather than this knee jerk reaction, I'd much rather see them head on something difficult. This is the easy way. "Just remove guns from our classifieds, and then we're politically correct." How about they use the public platform that they are on to educate the readers. To call out CCW courses, and CCW teachers, Hunter Safety courses, gun control, and home defense courses and encourage readers to participate in these courses so they understand better how to secure their guns, and more importantly when and how to use them if necessary. Instead, they took the easy way out. Very cowardly of them, I'm disappointed...


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## DallanC

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Freedom of religion in this country was bought by the lifes of individuals who used arms to stand up for whats right. Its sad religion doesnt seem to want to reciprocate in this case. I understand the wanting to appear sympathetic to the situation, but this isnt the right way to go about it.

-DallanC


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## GaryFish

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

KSL is not an advocate either for or against guns. They are a news company. It is not their place to advocate for anything.

And no matter how we try to shape this - guns are an issue. Guns were used by a very bad man to kill a bunch of little kids. Guns are designed and built for the express purpose of killing. It is why they are effective in personal protection. It is why we use them to hunt animals. It is THE reason we have them - they are effective. Guns place tremendous power in the hands of those that hold them. They place the power to kill something - even big game animals weighing hundreds of pounds - from hundreds of yards away. Guns have ONLY one purpose - shooting things. And gun owners and advocates need to not fear that. Why do we have CCW permits? So we can kill the bad guy before he kills us. The gun gives power, and through that power, protection.

Sure, it is the holder of the gun that makes that choice of using it. Absolutely it is. But we cannot continually deny that guns are dangerous. THAT is the point of guns. Guns are not THE issue here - but they are certainly part of the discussion.

Now that said, KSL probably facilitates more illegal gun sales & trades than any other entity. And if I'm them, I'm shaking in my boots from a legal perspective. No matter how many disclaimers, it only takes convincing 12 people that someone died because a bad guy was able to buy a gun from a willing sender that he would not have found without the help of KSL. They have to cover their own tails. And I have to say, if I were in their shoes, I would have dropped the firearms classifieds years ago, just like ebay did. And it isn't because I'm against gun ownership or against the 2nd amendment or any of that. It would be that if I were in any way involved with a bad guy being able to do such horrible things that would have at least been altered without my involvement, that would be very hard to deal with.


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## highcountryfever

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Huge29 said:


> TopofUtahArcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried the utahguns.com link and it comes up blank. I will try in another browser.
> 
> 
> 
> I could not see any listings with Firefox, bit it works ok with Explorer.
Click to expand...

If you are running an Ad-blocker program try disabling it on that page. It wouldn't work with chrome for me until I changed up my Ad-blocker.


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## Catherder

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



DallanC said:


> Freedom of religion in this country was bought by the lifes of individuals who used arms to stand up for whats right. Its sad religion doesnt seem to want to reciprocate in this case.





GaryFish said:


> KSL is not an advocate either for or against guns. They are a news company. It is not their place to advocate for anything.


The LDS church is not generally interested in political fights, especially one that doesn't involve their religious teachings or practices. It is also very sensitive to criticism such as what was put out by that mayor Bloomberg article. (Kind of a cheap shot article IMO) Additionally, there is minimal financial gain to KSL/the church by the gun ads. What they do care about is spreading their missionary message. Any issue that could detract from that goal will be quickly distanced by the church. Therefore, while somewhat regrettable that it happened, it is absolutely no surprise that KSL did what they did.

What really ticks me off right now is that the news media is abuzz about guns,guns, guns, in regards to the tragedy with all the expected politicalization, but little is being said about the other causes of these incidents, especially mental health care and security. In the end little will be accomplished IMO.


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## martymcfly73

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



.45 said:


> martymcfly73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's also an article in the nydaily news about this. I don't have a link from my phone. Looks like you can thank mayor Bloomberg.
> 
> 
> 
> Bloomberg hate's the NRA....Now would be a good time to re-new memberships or join.
> 
> I'm sorry to see KSL follow the sheep, I always thought they had enough guts to stand up and make a statement. Not fall down. They should be ashamed of themselves...
> 
> Now I'm wondering about the owners of this forum....how will they stand?
Click to expand...

I just re joined after a few year absence. It's a shame. Glad to see you're still around. This place isn't the same w/o you.


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## Fishrmn

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



> Guns are designed and built for the express purpose of killing.


NOPE!
Guns are built to send a projectile to a target. Be it paper, metal, animal, human, or whatever. The person who aims the gun, and pulls the trigger decides whether or not it will be used to kill.


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## Al Hansen

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Fishrmn said:


> Guns are designed and built for the express purpose of killing.
> 
> 
> 
> NOPE!
> Guns are built to send a projectile to a target. Be it paper, metal, animal, human, or whatever. The person who aims the gun, and pulls the trigger decides whether or not it will be used to kill.
Click to expand...

YUP ! +1


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## Dahlmer

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I agree with Fishrmn in regard to the reasoning behind this decision. This is not a statement one way or the other regarding 2nd amendment rights. This decision has been made soley out of concern for liability. This is true of D!ck's, Walmart, KSL and any other seller or orginization that facilitates the sale of guns. If the gun that is sold is used in a violent crime such as what was perpetrated at Sandy Hook, the lawsuits will be aimed at those with the deepest pockets. KSL should be especially concerned as they are facilitating the sale of guns with zero documentation or oversight. I don't know if any illegal sales have taken place, but the liablity could be potentially very significant. As the owner and operator of KSL, I suspect that the LDS church would potentially be liable as well. I doubt the church has very much appetite for that type of liablity.

Secondly, KSL suspending gun classifieds does nothing to restrict anyone's 2nd ammendment rights. The 2nd ammendment provides the right to keep and bear arms, not to force someone to make a market for the sale of guns. Someone else will step in a supply the market anyway.


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## GaryFish

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

+1 Dahlmer. Good post.


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## Longfeather

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

KSL is not facilitating illegal gun sales.... They are providing a website were people post that they have a gun for sale. Guns are legal items and as such KSL will not and have not been sued.

KSL is not involved in the transaction.

KSL IS making a statement, and it is clear they are saying that the gun and responsible gun owners are the problem.

Drunk drivers killed over 200 kids last year yet KSL still sales cars and trucks.


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## klbzdad

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Treehugnhuntr said:


> Sorry if it's already been posted.
> 
> http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/1.1018385
> 
> Similar articles were published in many outlets.


Horsecrap. Anything Bloomberg says is hogwash. I've never purchased a firearm further away than Idaho. I've bought many. Of the six I've sold, I have bill of sales for all six and would never has shipped them out of state without doing it through an FFL and regardless, all six of them were sold to folks within a two hour drive. Besides, there are other outlets. Shop Local! Oh, and Walmart is still selling as many firearms as they can keep in stock, INCLUDING the AR-15 .223 Patrolman. They took it off the website because demand was overwhelming their server! http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-1 ... ge-on.html


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## Treehugnhuntr

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



klbzdad said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if it's already been posted.
> 
> http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/1.1018385
> 
> Similar articles were published in many outlets.
> 
> 
> 
> Horsecrap. Anything Bloomberg says is hogwash. I've never purchased a firearm further away than Idaho. I've bought many. Of the six I've sold, I have bill of sales for all six and would never has shipped them out of state without doing it through an FFL and regardless, all six of them were sold to folks within a two hour drive. Besides, there are other outlets. Shop Local! Oh, and Walmart is still selling as many firearms as they can keep in stock, INCLUDING the AR-15 .223 Patrolman. They took it off the website because demand was overwhelming their server! http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-1 ... ge-on.html
Click to expand...

Gun nuts and hunters, IMO, aren't the ones to be concerned about. Of course you got a BOS etc. I can't imagine that everyone selling firearms on KSL are that diligent.


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## GaryFish

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



> Drunk drivers killed over 200 kids last year yet KSL still sales cars and trucks.


I hear this all the time from fellow gun people. And to be truthful, it does nothing for our credibility for rational thought. Driving drunk is already illegal. And I am not aware of any driver, drunk or not, that goes out looking for people to kill with his/her car. However, bad people clearly not in their right mind, do go out with guns, looking for people to kill. And, the primary purpose for cars is not to kill or run over things. It is for transportation. Guns are specifically designed to shoot things (targets, animals, people), and bullets are specifically designed for accuracy and destruction of their targets. Cars are not. This is not a valid argument.


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## bwhntr

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Geez Gary you make me nuts. Drunk driving is illegal? So is murder! Your thinking is about as illogical as the rest of the libs.


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## GaryFish

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I know that. My point was - saying "drunk drivers kill people so KSL ought to stop selling cars" is a flawed argument. That is all.


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## bwhntr

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

 You still make me nuts.


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## GaryFish

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Fair enough.


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## bigbr

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



GaryFish said:


> Fair enough.


And there you have it, we have come to a consensis that GF is NUTS :mrgreen:

Utahguns, 
On your site it would be nice to make a mobile application for us phone operators. Both Iphone and Driod.

PS Gary your not nuts....just half a bubble off like the rest of us....Big


----------



## Dahlmer

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Longfeather said:


> KSL is not facilitating illegal gun sales.... They are providing a website were people post that they have a gun for sale. Guns are legal items and as such KSL will not and have not been sued.
> 
> KSL is not involved in the transaction.
> 
> KSL IS making a statement, and it is clear they are saying that the gun and responsible gun owners are the problem.
> 
> Drunk drivers killed over 200 kids last year yet KSL still sales cars and trucks.


KSL created a marketplace and profits from the use of that marketplace...they are in fact facilitating gun sales. It makes no difference whether or not the sale is legal. Is it a stretch that they become liable if a gun sold via their classifieds is used in the commision of a violent crime? McDonald's was held liable because a women burned herself when she spilled hot coffee on her lap. More than one company has been held liable because people were electricuted while watching tv, listening to the radio, etc. while in the bathtub. Homeonwners have been held liable for injuries incurred by theives invading their homes. Home owners are often held liable for injuries recieved on personal property even when the individual injured was trespassing. Even if not held liable in court, what is the cost of defending yourself if you are named in a lawsuit.

In regard to illegal gun sales. Perhaps you have taken steps to ensure that you have not violated any laws, but it is an awfully dangerous assumption to assume that everyone else does as well. I have no doubt that guns have crossed state lines with no FFL that were sold via KSL. I would not be surprised to find that felons have purchased or sold guns via KSL. To state that some hungry attorney would not push a lawsuit against KSL if a line could be drawn back to them is naive. We live in a society that doesn't need case law to pursue monetary damages, especially when it is often cheaper to settle than to defend yourself.

So no, I don't agree that KSL is making any statement other than we don't want to be sued.


----------



## RichardClarke

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Dahlmer, I for one appreciate your rational and sensible approach to this. You are exactly right on point. This is a matter of risk vs. reward, and anyone in business understands this. KSL.com is in the business of e-commerce. KSL has virtually no obligation or duty to anyone to sell guns on their internet site. They are most certainly not infringing on anyone's 2nd amendment rights. Where does it say in the 2nd amendment that a person has the right to purchase a firearm on the internet??!! Both Harmon's and Smith's sell basic fishing equipment, but not sporting arms, does that make either one of them anti-gun or anti-2nd amendment? KSL merely reached the point where the risk associated with selling or facilitating the sale of firearms outweighed the reward. It is that simple and you guys are reading way more in to this than needs to be. In the end isn't it KSL's right, when operating in a free enterprise system, to do whatever they want? In the free enterprise system, if there is a demand shouldn't someone else be stepping up to the plate and filling the void KSL.com has left? Instead of whining and complaining that your constitutional rights have been trampled on why aren't you whiners capitalizing on this and set up a site and steal all of this weapons commerce and gun business away from KSL?


----------



## Al Hansen

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I just sold a gun off of KSL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The guy that was looking at my ad just called. He said that my ad dissappeared but he just happened to write my number down before they (KSL) bombed the site. I might just be the last one to have sold a gun off of KSL. :O•-: :roll: :evil:


----------



## klbzdad

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Treehugnhuntr said:


> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if it's already been posted.
> 
> http://m.nydailynews.com/new-york/1.1018385
> 
> Similar articles were published in many outlets.
> 
> 
> 
> Horsecrap. Anything Bloomberg says is hogwash. I've never purchased a firearm further away than Idaho. I've bought many. Of the six I've sold, I have bill of sales for all six and would never has shipped them out of state without doing it through an FFL and regardless, all six of them were sold to folks within a two hour drive. Besides, there are other outlets. Shop Local! Oh, and Walmart is still selling as many firearms as they can keep in stock, INCLUDING the AR-15 .223 Patrolman. They took it off the website because demand was overwhelming their server! http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-1 ... ge-on.html
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Gun nuts and hunters, IMO, aren't the ones to be concerned about. Of course you got a BOS etc. I can't imagine that everyone selling firearms on KSL are that diligent.
Click to expand...

That is true, but our government sure did a great job of funneling arms to the Mexican drug cartels and a heck of a lot more of them than we've been selling on KSL.com.

I took a nap and chilled out. Look everyone. The frindge wackos who really want this to be a big deal are winning. We're all for our 2nd ammendment and despite people wanting to blame mormons, athiests, and the polish among us. A tragedy has happened and I like how (I'm gagging on words I'm about to write) the NRA is doing it right. They are willing to talk rationally about the issue. They are willing to do everything possible to help with prevention and throw in anything they and their constituent have to offer into the discussion, but like anything we complain about they've managed to stir us up emotionally and we know how well that turns out, especially Utah hunters. SO, lets let the facts play out, keep those email, phone, and addresses handy to your "elected" representatives and we'll campaign to them what we want to do. Its clear those who want firearms to be a right have a voice to be heard, let the morons like Pierce Morgan, Bill "I'm a douche bag" Maher, and others run off at the mouth and together let us calmly prevail. Nappy time over, I have a one year old's birthday to go to. I have a really nice muzzleloader I'm selling if anyone's interested


----------



## klbzdad

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Besides, Obama put Joe Biden in control of doing this. He never gets anything done by himself! LOL


----------



## Bo0YaA

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Al Hansen said:


> I just sold a gun off of KSL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The guy that was looking at my ad just called. He said that my ad dissappeared but he just happened to write my number down before they (KSL) bombed the site. I might just be the last one to have sold a gun off of KSL. :O•-: :roll: :evil:


Al I just bought a gun off KSL from a guy whos number I wrote down before the site got bombed lol what did you sell? It might have been me that bought it.


----------



## Al Hansen

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Bo0YaA said:


> Al Hansen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just sold a gun off of KSL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The guy that was looking at my ad just called. He said that my ad dissappeared but he just happened to write my number down before they (KSL) bombed the site. I might just be the last one to have sold a gun off of KSL. :O•-: :roll: :evil:
> 
> 
> 
> Al I just bought a gun off KSL from a guy whos number I wrote down before the site got bombed lol what did you sell? It might have been me that bought it.
Click to expand...

 :lol: .44 Mag Henry.


----------



## Bo0YaA

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Nope not me, I picked up a CZ bolt 7.62x39


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



RichardClarke said:


> Dahlmer, I for one appreciate your rational and sensible approach to this. You are exactly right on point. This is a matter of risk vs. reward, and anyone in business understands this. KSL.com is in the business of e-commerce. KSL has virtually no obligation or duty to anyone to sell guns on their internet site. They are most certainly not infringing on anyone's 2nd amendment rights. Where does it say in the 2nd amendment that a person has the right to purchase a firearm on the internet??!! Both Harmon's and Smith's sell basic fishing equipment, but not sporting arms, does that make either one of them anti-gun or anti-2nd amendment? KSL merely reached the point where the risk associated with selling or facilitating the sale of firearms outweighed the reward. It is that simple and you guys are reading way more in to this than needs to be. In the end isn't it KSL's right, when operating in a free enterprise system, to do whatever they want? In the free enterprise system, if there is a demand shouldn't someone else be stepping up to the plate and filling the void KSL.com has left? Instead of whining and complaining that your constitutional rights have been trampled on why aren't you whiners capitalizing on this and set up a site and steal all of this weapons commerce and gun business away from KSL?


I agree. Good post, Dahlmer. What was it some feller once said about the truth being somewheres in the middle?

There seems to be a lot Of emotional reaction going on in both corners of the ring that ultimately, in my mind, is a counter productive approach to any problem and especially in this particular case regarding firearms etc. I think best thing sensible people can do is be.... Uh..... Sensible?


----------



## bow&muzzyhunter

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

The archery section is next

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/02/ma ... de-attack/


----------



## gregkdc

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I don't agree with what KSL is doing because of the message is sends. It is true that without doing the proper back ground check etc there is potential for liability; However the car analogy is valid. If a car dealer sold a car (or if KSL facilitated the sell of a car) to someone that was drunk, had a suspended license or mentally unstable and they killed someone the seller could be held liable, firearms are no different. There have been plenty of times people were run over due to impairment, criminal intent and malice, do we sue Larry Miller, Ford, GM or Budweiser? So you have to question weather they are truly worried about being held liable or if they have an ulterior motive. I question the motives of KSL and this isn't the first time KSL has promoted anti-constitution propaganda. I have seen them promote things such as cap and trade that would directly subvert the constitution to the UN. The funny thing is their owners have always preached that the very existence of the true church was dependant on the "God inspired" constitution. I guess actions speak louder than words, but what would you expect from a 501c3 entity? Take it for what it is worth.


----------



## Longfeather

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

KSL has provided a sounding board just like thousands of other websites out there.

Vorizon isn't held liable for a drug deal because a dealer used thier network to setup the deal.

If it was about risk the church would have left the Boy Scouts years ago.

There is no risk, other then political pressure.


----------



## RichardClarke

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Longfeather since you claim there is virtually no risk to KSL, it sounds like 100% upside. Maybe you should get in on this easy money since there is no risk or downside. Right now KSL is out of the competition. Go ahead set up a website, let people with fictitious user names, not real names, buy and sell assault weapons on your site and you can just sit back and roll in the dough. Set it up, easy money.


----------



## MadHunter

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

I have read some good posts, some good arguments and some not so good. I will share some of mynthoughts and opinions....

Guns are not the problem. We need to place the responsibility where it truly belongs, on the individual that makes the decision to kill. Drunk drivers get the same free ride when they hurt or kill someone. Because they were impaired when driving drunk they cannot be held as liable as if they were in full use of their abilities. BS in my opinion.

If we get rid of guns like say.... China. The assailant will use a sword, axe, club, knife or box cutter; like the guy in say... China! If we use Mexico as an example, well....6000 dead in one year in a country that outlaws guns completely really misses the point. both of these examples prove guns are not the problem.

Making policies based on knee jerk reactions or while emotional always leaves out reason and common sense. I doubt however, that politicians are making decisions based on emotion. They are exploiting the tragic death of innocent children and the pain ang grief of their families for political gain. That in my book puts them below parasites as life forms. Thre should be special place in hell for people like that.

We as americans should be ashamed of ourselves. We have slowly given up our freedoms and sacrificed our principles in the name of security. Use as an example the city of Chicago. With some of the most restictive gun laws it has the highest rate of gun violence in the country.

KSL and the LDS church have every right to change their policy for whatever reason they want or believe is in their benefit or best interest. I just hope that they remember that a gun in the hands of a responsible person gave them that right. I personally think they succummed to the possibility of political preasure.

I sincerely feal for the people that lost their most precious and innocent children and family members. My family and I have continuously prayed for them and will continue to do so. We also pray that a solution based on common sense, reason and the real root cause of these incidents is found.

I thinks that's enough..... for now.


----------



## .45

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Fishrmn said:


> Guns are designed and built for the express purpose of killing.
> 
> 
> 
> NOPE!
> Guns are built to send a projectile to a target. Be it paper, metal, animal, human, or whatever. The person who aims the gun, and pulls the trigger decides whether or not it will be used to kill.
Click to expand...

Good call Fishrmn.....good call! :O||:


----------



## bwhntr

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Excellent post Madhunter, thank you for sharing your thoughts.


----------



## Al Hansen

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



bwhntr said:


> Excellent post Madhunter, thank you for sharing your thoughts.


+1. Thank you.


----------



## Longfeather

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



RichardClarke said:


> Longfeather since you claim there is virtually no risk to KSL, it sounds like 100% upside. Maybe you should get in on this easy money since there is no risk or downside. Right now KSL is out of the competition. Go ahead set up a website, let people with fictitious user names, not real names, buy and sell assault weapons on your site and you can just sit back and roll in the dough. Set it up, easy money.


Richard,

People are not buying and selling guns on KSL. They are posting that they have a gun for sale on KSL.

You miss the difference, and there is a difference, that is why they aren't at risk.

You say assualt weapons like they are a bad thing. You have a problem with assualt weapons? If so say it!

KSL is behaving emotionally to political pressure, KSL not allowing guns posts will not stop another shooting from happening.


----------



## Springville Shooter

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Please be careful when stating opinions about legal liability. It is a slippery slope and is not even close to being based upon any kind of logic or common sense. Not saying it's right, or that I disagree with the sentiments posted here, just pointing out that those who don't understand the law should probably be careful when making bold statements. It carries the appearance of ignorance. As far as my opinion, I don't like the fact that KSL felt the need to pull the gun section, but I understand why it might make business sense to do so. Also, they might have felt some moral responsibility for making it so easy for ineligible folks to make illegal gun deals. Sad times.------SS


----------



## Longfeather

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

SS,

I'm just pointing out the difference between a website posting and private partys doing a business transaction.

If someone is looking for legal advice they probably should'nt look for postings on a hunting website.

KSL isn't making it any harder for illegal gun sales by dropping the listing.

Just think of all of the stolen items that MIGHT get sold on KSL, they don't seem concenerd about all of the stolen items that could be sold on KSL.com I.E. guitars, camara, livestock etc... If they are going to take the view that gun sales are bad, because someone that shouldn't have one might get one, then they should take the same approach and drop everything else.

Unless they view that the gun is the problem, and it isn't the gun that is the problem.


----------



## Dahlmer

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Longfeather said:


> Richard,
> 
> People are not buying and selling guns on KSL. They are posting that they have a gun for sale on KSL.
> 
> You miss the difference, and there is a difference, that is why they aren't at risk.
> 
> You say assualt weapons like they are a bad thing. You have a problem with assualt weapons? If so say it!
> 
> KSL is behaving emotionally to political pressure, KSL not allowing guns posts will not stop another shooting from happening.


Let me ask you this...if drugs were being sold on your personal property (with or without your knowledge) do you have liability? What if it is guns? What if alcohol is being served to minors in your home? Now, what if someone is seriously injured or killed as a result of the above actions? What is your liability? Can you say with absolute certainty that you would incur no legal liabitly? I can't. KSL provides a market place...they derive monetary gain from that marketplace (sometimes directly from the listing of a firearm)...I cannot say with certainty that they do not carry liability.

The car analogy is apples to oranges. There is one major difference that we are all skating around. An automobile is designed as a mode of transportation...it can be used otherwise and sometimes is. A gun, by definition, is a weapon! It is designed and engineered to kill what ever it is aimed at...human, animal, or otherwise. Since the discovery of firearms in China centuries ago their original and primary use has always been as a weapon. Can you plink at paper with them? Yes. Can you shoot them for sport or competition? Yes. Does that change its primary use and function? No. Humans have spent years developing guns and ammunition to more be effective at killing things. There are many discussions on this forum and others like it discussing what cartridges or bullets are the best for dropping an animal in its tracks. What will cause the most damage? Is it better to have a pass through or for the bullet to stay in the body cavity? When was the last time you visited a car forum and saw a discussion about what car works best for a hit and run or what might work best for a car bomb? Like I said...apples and oranges.

In the hands of a someone like Adam Lanza, a gun becomes a tool of terrible destruction. KSL cannot guarantee they won't faciliate someone like him getting access to a gun. They are not trying to make it harder to illegally obtain a gun. They are trying to protect themselves from being held liable for someone like that gaining access to one.

As to your querry about AR's...I don't have a problem with them. However, lot of people don't see a good case for having them available. I know for all intents and purposes, that I can buy a hunting rifle that will provide most of the functionality of an AR, but it doesn't look like a military weapon. I suspect if you surveyed the general population...most wouldn't have a clue what the difference is between an AR available to the general public and military issued rifle. I've had several discussion with guys I work with who are all from Utah and perfectly comfortable with hunting and gun ownership, but they don't know what an AR is...let alone automatic vs semiautomatic. AR's are in the spotlight because of what they look like and because of public perception of what they are. The same can be said of hand guns. I'm not defending perception, nor do I agree with it, but that is what we are fighting against.

If KSL decides the liablity is too high...I won't judge them for that. Is it disappointing that they have discontinued gun listing? Absolutely. I don't believe we should take that as a statement in favor of stricter gun control though.


----------



## gwhit67

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

While driving home last night listening to the radio a guy came on saying that one of the local papers had deleted their gun section also. He then said that within hours he and some others had a new website up, utahgunexchange.com 
I hope this helps out. I in no way have any affliation with this but I figure that under the current circumstances...WTH !!! It may be worth checking out

Good Luck to You All 
& 
Have a Merry Christams and a Happy New Year!!!


----------



## Longfeather

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

When it comes to KSL.com liability the car and gun are exactly the same. They are not apple and oranges. The reason for this is that they are both tools that when used incorrectly can kill and that KSL is not held liable for another persons actions. How does KSL not know that a drunk driver not allowed to drive is purchasing and driving one of thier cars? in the US Drunk driving killed more people last year then illegal assult rifles.

Lanza could have used a car or truck, wrench or hi-jacked a train to do his evil. We wouldn't see the same out cry against those items if he had used them. The reason why is that there isn't anything politically to be gained.

If KSL decides to stop allowing posts to sell guns, tools, cars etc I will give them credit for being concerned about peoples safety, being sued or whatever thier real motivation is. But, If they only stop allowing posts selling fire arms then I will judge them as anti-gun.

If KSL wanted to do something to help keep this from happening again it should push to allow teachers to carry fireams and they would push to do away with gun free zones, instead they stop guns from being listed on thier site, which helps them politically, but does nothing to keep it from happening again.


----------



## RichardClarke

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Longfeather, Wow. I'm actually speechless. I do not know what the word is I'm looking for. I don't know... Yep. I finally see your logic. Everybody that refuses to be an intermediary in the gun market is anti-gun. Amazon.com, Ebay, Craigslist, Target, Best Buy, Home Depot, Fish Tech, REI, Dollar Cuts, Subway, Chuck-a-rama, Mark Miller Toyota, etc. etc. etc. If they don't sell guns and it is against their business model to be a party to a gun sale transaction, they must be anti-gun... I get it now.


----------



## jahan

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Shouldn't this be in the firearms section, it seems that every other item on this topic has been moved, but this one. I guess I am just pointing it out as a fairness issue to the others that have had theirs moved.


----------



## Longfeather

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



RichardClarke said:


> Longfeather, Wow. I'm actually speechless. I do not know what the word is I'm looking for. I don't know... Yep. I finally see your logic. Everybody that refuses to be an intermediary in the gun market is anti-gun. Amazon.com, Ebay, Craigslist, Target, Best Buy, Home Depot, Fish Tech, REI, Dollar Cuts, Subway, Chuck-a-rama, Mark Miller Toyota, etc. etc. etc. If they don't sell guns and it is against their business model to be a party to a gun sale transaction, they must be anti-gun... I get it now.


WOW!!!

It is very simple, If they are worried about tools (firearms) being used by people who shouldn't legally be using them, and they are not anti-gun (WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING!!!), then they shouldn't allow posting for all of those other items (cars etc...).

It is simple enough for my ten year old, but I doubt it will get the point across, perhaps it is my poor comunication skills. I will try it this way.

KSL.com's Business model is likely to get people to visit thier website so they can charge more for thier advertising. More people that visit the more they can charge. The more items that are listed the more people that will visit the site.

So if it goes against thier business model (no gun listings = less visits) and it isnt' about safety, and they aren't liable for a third partys actions, (otherwise they wouldn't allow cars etc..), then yes I will say they are anti-Gun.

I hope KSL proves me wrong.


----------



## DarKHorN

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



jahan said:


> Shouldn't this be in the firearms section, it seems that every other item on this topic has been moved, but this one. I guess I am just pointing it out as a fairness issue to the others that have had theirs moved.


 :lol: My exact thought as well Hajan. o-||


----------



## RichardClarke

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Longfeather, the huge problem continually with your logic is you fail to understand business decisions in a litigious society. KSL has to factor in at least a few things here. One, maybe just maybe, a sponsor or advertiser will pull away because of KSL's stance on facilitating guns sales on their internet. Ever think that maybe some sponsors might pull out? Ever think about the unthinkable happening? What if a tragedy did occur and a crazy person bought a firearm on KSL.com. This crazy person may have been denied a legitimate purchase because of a background check and turned to KSL.com to acquire the firearm. What if that crazy individual then used that weapon in a horrible murder. KSL would have to deal with the fallout, either directly or indirectly. There would obviously be bad press and publicity and most importantly the inevitable lawsuit. KSL.com would most surely be named in the lawsuit as a party to the transaction. KSL would incur hefty legal fees, etc. In their mind they weighed all of this against the revenue they were receiving from the advertising and made a business decision that it simply wasn't worth it. At least not until they reviewed it further.


----------



## Fishrmn

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Dahlmer said:


> A gun, by definition, is a weapon! It is designed and engineered to kill what ever it is aimed at...human, animal, or otherwise.


NOPE!
Guns are built to send a projectile to a target. Be it paper, metal, animal, human, or whatever. The person who aims the gun, and pulls the trigger decides whether or not it will be used to kill.


----------



## Dahlmer

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



Longfeather said:


> When it comes to KSL.com liability the car and gun are exactly the same. They are not apple and oranges. The reason for this is that they are both tools that when used incorrectly can kill and that KSL is not held liable for another persons actions. How does KSL not know that a drunk driver not allowed to drive is purchasing and driving one of thier cars? in the US Drunk driving killed more people last year then illegal assult rifles.
> 
> Lanza could have used a car or truck, wrench or hi-jacked a train to do his evil. We wouldn't see the same out cry against those items if he had used them. The reason why is that there isn't anything politically to be gained.
> 
> If KSL decides to stop allowing posts to sell guns, tools, cars etc I will give them credit for being concerned about peoples safety, being sued or whatever thier real motivation is. But, If they only stop allowing posts selling fire arms then I will judge them as anti-gun.
> 
> If KSL wanted to do something to help keep this from happening again it should push to allow teachers to carry fireams and they would push to do away with gun free zones, instead they stop guns from being listed on thier site, which helps them politically, but does nothing to keep it from happening again.


No, killing something is exactly the correct purpose for which the gun was created. Under the right conditions a gun may be legally used to kill another person. It is not apples to apples to compare a gun to anything other than another weapon. To argue any other purpose is to ignore the history and evolution of weapons and war and hunting/gathering.

Gun sales are closely regulated by the federal government...car sales are not. I can buy a car regardless of whether or not I have been convicted of a DUI as long as I can produce the money necessary to complete the sale. I can be a felon and still drive it. I can drive or sell it across state lines without penalty or legal ramifications. That is not the case with guns and rightfully so.

You clearly have your mind made up, I won't waste any more time arguing with you. It would be nice to live in a world of such clear absolutes, but the reality is the law provides far more grey area than what you are willing to acknowledge.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Not entirely true, and this is where I personally think some stitching of an open issue could occur. If someone purchased a second hand firearm from a classified add, person to person, there is nothing stopping any type of criminal or potential assailant from obtaining a firearm under the radar. At a minimum, I think we could benefit from having a standard protocol in place that ensures gun traces will end at the current possessor of a firearm.

Simple downloadable form that is required to sell a gun second hand, that the seller keeps for their records. This way when a gun is used in a crime it doesn't end at "well, I sold it to some guy on KSL".

It's quite amazing some of the misinformation that is out there regarding guns, even by gun owners. Most people I talk to think there is some kind of database that the ATF/government keeps of firearm purchases. A 4473 never goes further than a dealers records unless the particular firearm is used in a crime.


----------



## goose_716

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Lets be honest a lot of this argument boils down to wanting to make sure are children are safe when attending school. When teachers that are trained or administrators or hired security guards or even military are used, school grounds is a place where a gunman can go and not meet resistance. A Bully so to say. Quote "Statistically, school buses are the safest way for children to travel to and from school, but about 12,000 children are injured and 26 still die each year in school bus accidents ' SO each year there is more children injured on way to school in a bus and yet the media (KSL,etc) ignore this. Forbid we attack there freedom of speech. I mean someone can go into a say theater and scream fire and cause hysteria and such but the media doesn't propose repealing freedom of speech. Gun laws are useless. Hopefully this will blow over but i do think they will continue to gain ground unless we attack back. Problem is there is a time to mourn and they just seem not to understand this and yet the gun nuts and such have been quiet.


----------



## Longfeather

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



goose_716 said:


> Lets be honest a lot of this argument boils down to wanting to make sure are children are safe when attending school. When teachers that are trained or administrators or hired security guards or even military are used, school grounds is a place where a gunman can go and not meet resistance. A Bully so to say. Quote "Statistically, school buses are the safest way for children to travel to and from school, but about 12,000 children are injured and 26 still die each year in school bus accidents ' SO each year there is more children injured on way to school in a bus and yet the media (KSL,etc) ignore this. Forbid we attack there freedom of speech. I mean someone can go into a say theater and scream fire and cause hysteria and such but the media doesn't propose repealing freedom of speech. Gun laws are useless. Hopefully this will blow over but i do think they will continue to gain ground unless we attack back. Problem is there is a time to mourn and they just seem not to understand this and yet the gun nuts and such have been quiet.


Excellent post Goose.

If KSL sincerely cared about preventing another school shooting they would do the research about this. Instead they blame the tools

Dahlmer,

My point is twofold.

1. A gun is a tool, as is a car; wrench knife etc and all can be misused very easily. I am not arguing they are the same tool.

2. KSL.com is a website that is treating guns different then cars even though they are not responsible for the actions the car or gun sellers/buyers take.

Why do all of you defend KSL so much? Everyone agrees they are a private business and as such can do what they want with their website.

Are you folks that defend KSL blaming the gun for what happened?


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## hossblur

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



GaryFish said:


> Drunk drivers killed over 200 kids last year yet KSL still sales cars and trucks.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear this all the time from fellow gun people. And to be truthful, it does nothing for our credibility for rational thought. Driving drunk is already illegal. And I am not aware of any driver, drunk or not, that goes out looking for people to kill with his/her car. However, bad people clearly not in their right mind, do go out with guns, looking for people to kill. And, the primary purpose for cars is not to kill or run over things. It is for transportation. Guns are specifically designed to shoot things (targets, animals, people), and bullets are specifically designed for accuracy and destruction of their targets. Cars are not. This is not a valid argument.
Click to expand...

Last I checked killing people was already illegal, so was armed robbery, armed assult, attempted murder, etc, etc, etc. Guns are dangerous, to deny it is dishonest, but to further pretend that all people are good is just naive. There are evil people every day, and whether or not we like it, we are targets whether they use guns, cars, jets, knifes, whatever. I just choose to fight fire with fire, and NO GOVERNMENT will stop me from doing so, the rest is just chatter. As for KSL, I will take them seriously when they stop taking money from Browning, Cabelas, Sportsmans Warehouse, Smith and Edwards, etc. If they really want to make a stand lets see them do that, until then this is what it is superficial, and at this time we need serious discussions by serious peole. Check out Utahgunexchange.com


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## Huntoholic

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



GaryFish said:


> Drunk drivers killed over 200 kids last year yet KSL still sales cars and trucks.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear this all the time from fellow gun people. And to be truthful, it does nothing for our credibility for rational thought. Driving drunk is already illegal. And I am not aware of any driver, drunk or not, that goes out looking for people to kill with his/her car. However, bad people clearly not in their right mind, do go out with guns, looking for people to kill. And, the primary purpose for cars is not to kill or run over things. It is for transportation. Guns are specifically designed to shoot things (targets, animals, people), and bullets are specifically designed for accuracy and destruction of their targets. Cars are not. This is not a valid argument.
Click to expand...

GaryFish, people who used cars as weapons.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=960&sid=19155503
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=10571971
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=10573698


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## GaryFish

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Two of those are the same story.

But you make a point.

Still - cars have a primary purpose that does not involve destroying targets. Guns do not.


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## Catherder

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

One thing to add. All of you that are bashing KSL and the LDS church as the epitome of anti gun zealotry are missing the point. I really doubt you need to worry much about them. Who you *do* need to worry about is the opinion of the general public, politicians, and the mainstream media. (Sorry, KSL is hardly left wing by any stretch of the imagination) Gun advocates need to present their case reasonably and logically. They also have to present some real alternatives to help prevent these kind of tragedies as well. If they don't, then yes, some rights may be lost.

One thing is for sure. Ranting about some on line ad service and a religion with some of the most conservative members in the nation isn't going to do squat for the gun cause.


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## Huntoholic

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*



GaryFish said:


> Two of those are the same story.
> 
> But you make a point.
> 
> Still - cars have a primary purpose that does not involve destroying targets. Guns do not.


This issue is not about an object having a primary purpose. Ultimately this is about people using an object to do harm to others. To many items in this world can be used to do harm to others. Are we going to ban al these objects? Are we going to live in a bubble? Or are we going to deal with the real problem, which is the people.


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## hoghunter011583

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Guns are regulated up the wazzoo and we still see more and more crime and killings. Maybe just maybe there is a deeper problem in this country than to many guns. Trying the same thing expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity!! So, lets just keep watching as the insanity goes on and we ban assault weapons or even all semi auto weapons, and just watch as crime rises just like the many other countries that have done this. Maybe the soul of our nation is very sick! Maybe the lack of decent fathers and mothers is what is causing our children to be depressed and violent. Maybe the fact that our children are not rooted in God and have a feeling of purpose and the bright outlook on a good future is causing them to feel like life is not worth living. 
Maybe the fact that all the split homes and lack of good family values is not teaching our children anything but to fallow in there parents foot steps which is a broken life and soul!!
You guys can wring your hands over how to protect our children from school violence but it will only lead to a more controlled society, which it will need to be if we have no self control!
Without a people which self governs themselves we will need more and more authoritarian control until we are no different than any other nation. 
This issue is not about guns, it is not about school safety, it is about the health of our country. When it is common for kids to slaughter other children we have a FAR deeper problem than what to do with all these guns!! It is really silly to me that we are looking at these issues right now!!
It is almost like if we started having a cannibal murder problem and we start having a discussion about what the heck to do about all these unsafe ovens!!!!
Take a look at the facts, areas with strict gun laws are nearly always the most high crime areas. Just keep trying the same solution and expecting a different outcome! After all wasn't this a gun free zone? I mean if it was against the law to bring a gun there why did he do it, I guess he didn't give to rats about the law!! If your argument is that he shouldn't have been able to get the gun in the first place well, I guess if we ban certain guns that would work, I mean it works with drugs right. Drugs are totally illegal and that is why America doesn't have a drug problem..... oh yeah it does!! Facts are facts!! This country has major problems and it starts with every one of us, it is about how we allow evil in our own life to grow. We don't want to look at that and so we look at guns. Take a look in the mirror, do you have a split family, a child with an abuse problem or you yourself have a substance abuse problem? If so then great welcome to being a human being, I'm not judging you but before you do anything else, fix your problems before you ask for me to be further controlled!!


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## Huntoholic

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Well said Hoghunter011583, well said


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## hossblur

*Re: KSL just dropped all firearm sections of their classifie*

Well said Hog, and I am not a religious man. I stayed in line as a kid because dad saw to it. I knew about guns because dad saw to it. I remember his 'if I ever see you make a mistake with this gun I will wrap it around a fence post discusssion". 16,000 murders before they are 18 really stuck in my head, I am guilty of being numb to this one. I think we have removed consequences in life from our kids. If you don't play well and score goals, it doesn't matter, we don't keep score. We are half way into 1st grade, and i don't see a report card. Get in trouble at school, obviously the teacher is picking on us. Etc, etc, etc,. Most kids have no idea that cheeseburger they ate came from killing a cow. No idea that gun on the xbox, is different from a real gun. Smoke pot, we all did, be unfaithful you can still be President, don't wanna pay your bills, go bankrupt, it doesn't affect anyone. In the abscence of consequences their is just mush and grey area.


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