# Anybody wanna talk about it?



## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

It's sad that in the early aftermath of the tragedy in Connecticut that there is a division amongst us. And it all happens to be about gun control. 
Isn't it a good concept to have control on guns just like it is good to be for the ethical treatment of animals. The question is to what degree do we attempt to control this. How do we control this? I am familiar with the adage that guns don't kill people but people do. The only problem is that people that happen to use guns to kill people do so very efficiently. I doubt the scale of this tragedy would have been so large if the assassin had another type of weapon. When we bring beginners into shooting and hunting among the first things we teach is how powerful firearms are. So let's be honest about guns. They are powerful. 

I am not for outlawing guns. We've seen how mass prohibitions work. I am for gun control. I am also for the ethical treatment of animals as it would happen. Society has proven that we need help staying in check. Events like today need to stop, but the opposite seems to be trending. This is close to an epidemic. It is hard to argue that there needs to be a remedy. 

Any ideas?


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

By the way, a huge part of me feels like there is no hope. Bad people will find way to do bad things.


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

CONTROL! Where does it end? A guy in China or Japan went into a school with a knife and stabbed a bunch of kids. Knife control?


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

The trouble with any kind of “control” is determining who gets to do the controlling. Right now I’m not sure what I think. I am pretty sure that neither cause and effect nor rationality will play any part in any actions taken as a result of this mindless crime.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

idiot with a bow said:


> By the way, a huge part of me feels like there is no hope. Bad people will find way to do bad things.


I think that's the key. You can take and lock up all the guns and these things will still happen. Just like in China today 22 kids stabbed. Where do we stop with control. Is it a mental health issue and the mental health system needs overhaul? Bad people will do bad things, but these are happening way too often.


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## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

It's too late to disarm people. It was too late when firearms were invented. The fact is that they exist and will always find a way into the wrong hands. We can't un-invent them.

The only defense is to be prepared to counter the actions of those that would harm innocent people.

Gun control, in the sense of prohibition, has a part to play in what happened yesterday. You can bet that the next time a wacko feels the need to go on a killing spree, it will also be in a "gun free zone".

Had someone in the office been prepared, this may have ended very differently.

It's tragic and unthinkable how anyone could commit such acts to defenseless people (adults too). It's really disgusting.

It's even more disgusting to watch the proponents of gun control attempt to capitalize on this.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

These teachers should be required to carry! 

When we catch fools like this there should be a quick public hanging.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

LOAH said:


> It's too late to disarm people. It was too late when firearms were invented. The fact is that they exist and will always find a way into the wrong hands. We can't un-invent them.
> 
> The only defense is to be prepared to counter the actions of those that would harm innocent people.
> 
> ...


Very well said.Being prepared for this could have saved lives,however one of the problems I see is the media,sure we want to know the whole story,but you get some idiot reporter who says " this is the worst one yet,and I hope someone doesnt try to do a bigger one".You know that there is some nut job already thinking that he or she should try for their moment of fame.These events are going to unfortunatly happen,we need to think of worst case scenieros and be ready for them.God bless these children.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> These teachers should be required to carry!


I have to disagree with the proposed requirement. I have worked with some folks in the schools that shouldn't be within a mile of a sharp knife, let alone a gun. The truth is that every school should be assigned a full time police officer.

On Thursday I had the pleasure of stepping between a ninth grade Mexican gang banger (covered in tattoos of crowns and the number 13, of course) and a mouthy fat kid. Our school officer was on duty over at another school and there could have been a lot of blood shed before he arrived on the scene. I happen to be a former corrections officer so when Baby Gangster didn't back down when ordered to do so, I jumped into the fray and helped him back off. Teachers are not trained for combat (wrestling coaches excluded  ). The legislature has put our schools in danger by cutting the budget so thinly that school officers are now shared by 4 or 5 schools. It's a joke.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Americans put our schools in danger when in school spankings and the Pledge of Allegiance were made a thing of the past. There is no right answer anymore. Video games, Facebook, My Space, Twitter, Rap Crap and the Me First mentality are here to stay. Children are not taught how to cope with problems anymore. They are taught to look for the easy way out. SAD SAD SAD


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

1 officer to 4 or 5 schools?! There seems to be plenty of cops writing parking tickets and generally raising all sorts of revenue. Priorities.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I moved this thread to the Firearms section, just because it is more so about firearms as opposed to the tragedy.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

idiot with a bow said:


> 1 officer to 4 or 5 schools?! There seems to be plenty of cops writing parking tickets and generally raising all sorts of revenue. Priorities.


This is my opinion, but every school should have one armed officer. The money needed to fund this could come from the overinflated school boards. Nearly every, if not every mass shooting has occurred in a "gun free zone", and Connecticut has an assault weapons ban. Law abiding citizens follow laws, not criminals.

See I think we all look at this from the wrong perspective. I agree with iwab when he says we need to be realistic and realize how dangerous a gun is, it is very dangerous and without a gun, 20 kids would not have died. But rather than banning guns, we need more good people with guns. I don't think 20 kids would have died if there was proper training in the schools, armed officers, and if teachers want to get a concealed carry and carry they should be able to. I agree with bird, I don't think every teacher should pack and I don't think any of the students should know if a teacher is packing. The reason I say this is because if a student knows a teacher has a gun they may try and get it to cause harm.

These monsters that commit these crimes do their research, it is no coincidence they attack places where they think they will have the least resistance.

Lastly, I do think there could be some things done to try and keep guns out of certain peoples hands. Anybody can get a gun with very little effort. I could go on KSL today and go buy a gun without any paperwork or anyone knowing besides me and the buyer. Many pawn shops sale guns to know felons, ect. There are things that could and probably should be tighten up, but anything similar to the Brady Bill is ridiculous and does no good.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I am profoundly torn on the subject of gun control. Events such as this really make me see and appreciate both sides of the argument.

My thoughts are this: gun control ultimately cannot happen because it is in direct conflict with the Second Amendment as I perceive it. By stating gun control is in direct conflict, I mean that it is limiting a right that our forefathers felt so strongly about that they wrote it down as one of the very first rights that they wanted to ensure that we would be guaranteed. Without delving much more into the specifics of the Second Amendment, my concern is that by opening the door to limiting ONE right, this creates the perception that our rights are alterable and therefore not guaranteed. Theoretically this could mean that someone could create enough fear-mongering to scare people into altering the freedom of religion to exclude those of the Muslim faith due to the extreme acts of some fanatical individuals within their religion. Due to these extreme acts of a few, sudden panic ensues and Muslims are banned from practicing their religion as opposed to looking at the fundamental causes and warning signs of extremism. Unhealthy food is another topic that has been in the news recently and some areas are even going to the extreme of limiting proportions to ensure that the population will eat "healthier." Should we ban everything that is deemed as "unhealthy" by a few? 

What do these things have in common? All of these things can be used for immense good, evil, and may even kill you. So instead of limiting your right to shoot a gun, go to church, and eat, lets talk about education. Not in the sense of "hey, you have a gun so you have to take a class." But education in the sense that everyone needs to learn about these topics, even if they don't want to own a gun, go to church, or eat a super-sized Big Mac meal at McDonalds.

The point of my comparison to religion and gun control is that both are rights guaranteed to us through our Constitution. Unfortunately, a few bad eggs really make it hard for the rest of us that choose to enact our Constitutional Rights. So instead of banning guns, Muslims, and unhealthy foods, we need to talk about education. We need to educate people about gun safety, ramifications of using a firearm, warning signs of individuals that may be unstable and how to help them. We need to talk about religious tolerance, share ideas, and learn to recognize behaviors that may indicate unstable thoughts tied to religious extremism. We need to talk more about healthy foods, share how eating properly ensures a healthy life and body, and help those that are struggling to eat properly.

I genuinely feel that education is the key. Lets teach each other how to detect warning signs. Lets uphold the Constitution. Lets help America be known as the greatest nation to ever grace the face of this planet.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Jahan also made one other point: 


Jahan said:


> Law abiding citizens follow laws, not criminals.


Education needs to take place on proper gun storage to prevent firearms from falling into the hands of those who shouldn't have them. Background checks that are more intensive would also be something that I would be willing to accept. The "cool down" periods that some states have are a good idea in my mind.

Most studies that I have read point out that most firearms used in a crime are generally stolen or illegally obtained. That says a lot right there to me


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

My 2 youngest kids are 4 and 5, so this tragedy has hit especially close to home. (Although it probably hits everyone pretty hard) Here are a few thoughts on what is being discussed.

1. As for ways to prevent it, I agree, it is sad and difficult. One area where I do think things could be better is in how our country handles mental health issues. From sad experience with people close to me, I know that mental health patients are all too often quickly drugged up, processed, and just sent out into society without the resources they need. This is, almost always, *not*due to the mental health workers, who do what they can with the resources they have, but a problem of our society and government placing mental health issues at a low priority compared to other health problems. Additionally, while we have done wonders in improving medical care for other maladies, real progress in treating mental health problems has been considerably slower.

2. As for gun control, I have never seen why some folks need to have an arsenal of assault weapons sufficient to arm a small 3rd world country. However, an assault weapons ban/control would not have made a difference in this particular case. (It may have in that "joker" shooting in Colorado last summer.)  So the question is, how far do you go? Ban handguns? Everything? Europe basically does this in many countries, and they do have less gun crime, but they have other crimes to take their place. I do feel that gun bans would only "punish" the law abiding and the criminals and nutjobs would still find them. I don't feel it is a definitive answer except maybe in the case of "guns of mass destruction".



LOAH said:


> It's even more disgusting to watch the proponents of gun control attempt to capitalize on this.


Strongly agree, but I would also say some of the responses are attempts to cope and understand what has just happened. I can cut folks a little slack right now.

3.


BirdDogger said:


> The legislature has put our schools in danger by cutting the budget so thinly that school officers are now shared by 4 or 5 schools. It's a joke.


+1


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

I'd like to toss this up as pondering and it really makes me wonder. 

What would the Framers of our Constitution and the Second Amendment if alive today think about the Second Amendment and its meaning? 

Would they see the Second Amendment as it is currently written and it is what it is no changes need be made? Would they see a need for qualifications/changes to this Amendment if they envisioned back then the recent times of today with the mass murders in CN, OR, CO, WI, AZ. Would these Framers believe qualifications need to be made to the Second Amendment? I would like to believe yes they would. 

Now as I recall from my history classes...the most powerful weapon a citizen owned back then was a single shot musket. Yep slavery was legal and women couldn't vote back then also but times changed those...so I do believe these men who framed our Constitution would also agree and support needed changes and would also work to look at the Second Amendment and qualifications/control...need to be enacted. Again I believe YES THEY WOULD!!!!


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

This is a another case of the age old problem:
A handfull of morons mess it up for the majority.

Reminds me of a deal in a high school class I was in, where one jack*** did
something very stupid to a teacher and then would not come clean about it.
So........the WHOLE class got flunked that 1/4.
Have watched that analogy hapen over and over my whole life.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

Bax* said:


> The "cool down" periods that some states have are a good idea in my mind


Unless the person who wants to buy a gun for his or her protection is being threatened by someone who has already waited for the cooling off period and now has the means to kill or maim his victim. It ain't about guns. It's about criminals. I don't care whether it's bows and arrows, muskets, semi automatic pistols, AR-15s, or any other weapon. The crazies will find a way whether they use guns, knives, flammables, explosives or whatever. We, as a society, give them too much notoriety and fame. They should be executed. Buried in an unmarked grave, and their names expunged from all records.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Fishrmn said:


> Bax* said:
> 
> 
> > The "cool down" periods that some states have are a good idea in my mind
> ...


A BIG +1! Do a little research, and you'll see that criminologists overwhelmingly agree that media coverage of these crimes almost always increases the likelihood of copycat crimes. Regardless of the weapon, bad people will find ways to do bad things. Timothy McVeigh used diesel fuel and fertilizer. Al Qaeda used box cutters and airplanes, and the Unabomber mailed bombs with screws and nails embedded inside to kill people. Outlawing or restricting guns only restricts the law abiding, and will not stop idiots from accomplishing their goals.

Mental health is something that needs to be looked at more seriously. It is said that the guy in CT had some sort of personality disorder, and lived with his mother. I have heard that the firearms he used belonged to his mother, which means she did not secure them from him, knowing he had mental health issues. There were obviously some mistakes made. Let's address these mistakes first, and educate everyone on how to avoid them in the future. Let's not make knee-jerk reactions that will ultimately prove ineffective.

And K2- while I agree that firearms are different today than they were back in the 1700's, you're stepping onto the slippery slope by speculating what the actions of the founding fathers would have been. The 2nd Amendment specifically mentions "arms". Not guns, not knives, not tomahawks, or swords, or bayonets, or cannons. They referred to weapons that could be used to protect life and property from tyrannical individuals, and more specifically, governments. While they did not have a crystal ball to look into, I believe they very specifically used the word arms to describe a means to protect oneself, regardless of what they are. Bax* mentioned how other rights could ultimately be lost if the 2nd is allowed to be infringed. Keep that in mind as you contemplate what our founding fathers might think of the goings on of today.


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## Bscuderi (Jan 2, 2012)

The one common link isn't firearms we have terrorist attacks of all kinds. And the focus is on assault riffles which weren't even used in this tragedy. Am i the only one that finds it strange he had the assault rifle in his car but didn't use that? And body armor if he was just going to commit suicide? With all the political pressure on assault rifles i just find it strange. The common link is how we handle things as a society. All these assassins have preexisting known psychological issues and most always are loaded up on drugs like prozac etc. Which has side effects that cause these tendencies. Th e change in society isn't video games etc. Its our approach to mental illness rather then family support discipline etc we over diagnose and prescribe medications looking for the quick fix and the quick buck for doctors and pharma companies. Allowing this creates a danger to society.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bscuderi said:


> The one common link isn't firearms we have terrorist attacks of all kinds. And the focus is on assault riffles which weren't even used in this tragedy. Am i the only one that finds it strange he had the assault rifle in his car but didn't use that?


Actually he did use it. The coronor stated almost all deaths were from .223 bullets, each kid shot multiple times. The AR was found in the school, not in the car. Truely sad.

-DallanC


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Personally I think the point that people are missing is not in how these individuals are killing, but the fact that people have lost their respect for human life. The USA has now join the rest of the world. We hear it all the time. We, the USA, should be like the rest of the world. Well you got it. We are now like the rest of the world. Life is cheap.

Hollywood.....Go back and watch some of the old TV shows. Really watch them. Watch the Rifleman. Yes people died, but you did not see brains flying all over, or a leg being blow off. Almost all of the shows have a little message at the end that was good. But now we except shows that make sex, drugs, and a whole list of crap as okay and wonderful. Our moral compass is gone. 

You want to cut done on problems like the one that just happened. Then teach your children to respect human life. We are each different and have different life styles, but there are things that are true and correct across any life style. Men teach your sons to respect women and not how to cuss them out before they reach the age of two. Women teach your daughters how to respect themselves without grinding the male race in the process. 

We are people and are not perfect. The framers of the constitution where not perfect. There were things they did that were not right. I think that those that formed the Constitution would be more disgusted with our moral character, then they would worry about removing the right of someone to protect themselves.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Bax* said:


> I moved this thread to the Firearms section, just because it is more so about firearms as opposed to the tragedy.


 I disagree, as long as this topic is discussed only in the context of "pro-gun" or "anti-gun" we will never get to the real issue. The real issue, as stated above, how someone can have the idea that such an act is okay. The weapon comes much later.


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## Bscuderi (Jan 2, 2012)

DallanC said:


> Bscuderi said:
> 
> 
> > The one common link isn't firearms we have terrorist attacks of all kinds. And the focus is on assault riffles which weren't even used in this tragedy. Am i the only one that finds it strange he had the assault rifle in his car but didn't use that?
> ...


Where did u see this everything I saw said it was done with handguns and the ar was in the car. All the preliminary reports said assault riffle?


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

I agree with BirdDogger that the only armed person in the school should be the resource officer. We don't need a bunch of armed rambo teachers leaving their students. It appears to be quite clear the teachers that followed their lockdown training and stayed with their students to make sure they were safe survived. We had a shooting and a hostage situation at Syracuse Jr. a few years ago. No one was hurt because we all followed the training, and let the professionals handle it.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bscuderi said:


> Where did u see this everything I saw said it was done with handguns and the ar was in the car. All the preliminary reports said assault riffle?


Its all over the internet right now... Coroner's preliminary report here:

http://www.nola.com/news/baton-rouge/in ... ng_vi.html

quotes:



> Newtown, Conn. - All the victims of the Connecticut elementary school shooting were *killed up close by multiple rifle shots*, a medical examiner said. Dr. H. Wayne Carver said at a news conference Saturday the deaths are classified as homicides. He said he believes *"everybody was hit more than once."*


and further down the article:



> The gunman forced his way into the kindergarten-through-fourth-grade school, authorities said. He took three guns into the school - a Glock and a Sig Sauer, both semiautomatic pistols, *and a .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle*


Google link to tons of other sites carrying the article:

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... pjn9rlv54M

-DallanC


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

The Naturalist said:


> I agree with BirdDogger that the only armed person in the school should be the resource officer. We don't need a bunch of armed rambo teachers leaving their students. It appears to be quite clear the teachers that followed their lockdown training and stayed with their students to make sure they were safe survived. We had a shooting and a hostage situation at Syracuse Jr. a few years ago. No one was hurt because we all followed the training, and let the professionals handle it.


Maybe I'm wrong but I do think it's a good idea. Not everyone has to be armed it should be optional, and have it set up to do police style training. Not just a day at the range. Even if there is an officer at all schools, (which probably won't happen anytime soon) they may or may not be in the right location. They can't be everywhere at the same time. But maybe having a visual detourant would be enough.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

A few thoughts, 

1st- People continue to blame these types of things on lack of value in human life, or a "culture of violence" that has suddenly sprung upon society. I'm sorry but this faction of society has been around since the dawn of man. There has and always will be a portion of society that will prey upon others within society. Look back until the beginning of time and show me a time when there was not this section of society. You will not find such a time. 

2nd- Gun control is not the problem, and as such can not address the problem. The only people that abide by laws are those with morale stature, these members of society are not of that faction of society that I spoke of above, therefore disarming them will accomplish little more than their inability to protect themselves. Does this mean that steps shouldnt be taken to mitigate risk, no. Remember, meth, heroin, and dozens of other things are illegal, yet people are able to get them freely in society. 

3rd- The second ammendment is to ensure the ability of society to protect it's self from that of tyranny. The forefathers would stand by this inalienable right today, the same as they did when it was written. Just because some pervert it does not mean it should not be the right of free men. Look at freedom of religeon, press, or anyother. Should you not have the right to express your religeon because the Westboro Baptist Church protests at the funerals of this nations fallen war heroes?

4th- This situation was an absolute tragedy and should be respected as such. The lives of innocent men, women, and children were taken for no reason. It is terribly sad and my heart breaks for the families involved. 

5th- The old saying goes, "All that needs to happen for evil to prevail, is for good men to stand idly by and do nothing." In my opinion this has become the way of our society. Society as a whole has lost the will to fight evil and win. The majority of society wants to bury their head in the sand or legislate their way out of these types of situations, sorry but that can't happen. If you don't want this to happen in your society, take a proactive roll. Train yourself and others to protect yourselves and the innocent. The only thing that can stop an evil man with a gun is a good man with one. 

My final one, not all teachers should have guns, or clergymen, or daycare providers, hospital staff etc. etc. etc., BUT, there are those within these groups that have the ability and the desire to, and they should. Not only should they but they should be provided the training to be successful. They are trusted with our children on a daily basis, why should they not be trusted with their protection. This also needs to include the proper securing of campuses. You can walk in to the vast majority of schools in this nation, especially here in Utah, with almost no resistence. There is a major problem with this. 

but what the heck do I know, just another man rambling about his opinions.....


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Here's something Morgan Freeman said yesterday. I find it very insightful.
Chuck.

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why....It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."See More


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

LOAH said:


> It's too late to disarm people. It was too late when firearms were invented. The fact is that they exist and will always find a way into the wrong hands. We can't un-invent them.


That's a fact. Can't put the genie back in the bottle. And we can't prevent future tragedy simply by assigning blame. We need to really understand what's happening. Blaming guns doesn't get us anywhere.



swbuckmaster said:


> These teachers should be required to carry!


Absolutely not. I've got a permit and carry all the time, but never in the schoolhouse. If it became a requirement for me to do so, I'd quit. I teach in a building constructed entirely of concrete and brick and loaded with roughly 1,000 teenagers. There isn't a safe shot anywhere in the building. I may be willing to work for peanuts. But I will not risk having the death of a child on my conscience. That's not the job I signed up for.

We have a full time officer at our school because we pay extra to have him there. Teachers don't have time (or training) to be cops. He brings expertise to the schoolhouse (he knows who the gangbangers are) but really, he doesn't have much to do.

Meantime, my school district was in "knee-jerk" mode before the end of the day Friday with big plans for added security...badges, pass keys, more locked doors, additional cameras and maybe even a metal detector at the schoolhouse door. :roll:



Bscuderi said:


> The common link is how we handle things as a society. All these assassins have preexisting known psychological issues and most always are loaded up on drugs like prozac etc. Which has side effects that cause these tendencies. Th e change in society isn't video games etc. Its our approach to mental illness rather then family support discipline etc we over diagnose and prescribe medications looking for the quick fix and the quick buck for doctors and pharma companies. Allowing this creates a danger to society.


I think that's right. The common element in all these episodes isn't guns. The common element is mental illness. Changing how guns are perceived won't resolve mental illness, but resolving mental illness will likely change how guns are sometimes used. It would take a lot of work to address that issue and the attendant issue of legal drug abuse. But if we could shift the attention currently focused on guns, we might actually accomplish something.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Has anyone been disturbed by the media coverage of this tragedy? Especially in context to the "reaction" photo's of parents as they have just recently found out their child was killed. I think it's a pathetic way to sell newspapers. I for one would not want a picture of me splashed globally. It's one thing to take the picture but then to sell it because of its gut wrenching qualities. I don't like it.

Then the network news guys come in. And in typical New Yorker fashion want to turn the conversation to gun control. And don't get me started on Bloomberg.

Sad sad sad deal. I don't have an answer to the problem. But I do know an assault weapons ban or reduced clip capacity wont put an end to these kinds of tragedies.

When someone points to gun laws as an answer I piont to drugs. Drugs are illegal and therefore there are no drugs. What a silly mentality


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Quote

"If teachers were carrying guns, there wouldn't be school shootings here but in america many teachers are part of the liberal problem,. These sick cowards go where they know there will be defenseless people. Schools, Movie theaters. Since Israel armed their teachers in the 70's, school shootings are virtually non-existent. 

When are we going to wake up in this country and change our views on how we are allowed to protect ourselves from sick people? Taking guns away from people and not allowing them to protect themselves is criminal. And if people think that banning guns will suddenly cure the problem, I would like to point out that drugs are illegal, but people can readily obtain them. I bet the parents of those dead kids sure wished the janitor, the principal, or a teacher were armed; they’re kid may still be alive. And exactly what IS an assault weapon anyway? Anything can be considered an assault weapon. It takes human intervention to make an inanimate object become evil. People control, my friends is the answer; not gun control."


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

USMARINEhuntinfool said:


> A few thoughts,
> 
> 1st- People continue to blame these types of things on lack of value in human life, or a "culture of violence" that has suddenly sprung upon society. I'm sorry but this faction of society has been around since the dawn of man. There has and always will be a portion of society that will prey upon others within society. Look back until the beginning of time and show me a time when there was not this section of society. You will not find such a time.
> 
> ...


 +1 I could not have said it better.

I also found this interesting article. One big thing that stuck out to me, was his note about Columbine. The SRO and Armed Security guard stood outside the school doing nothing while the shooters shot innocent students.


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

huntingbuddy said:


> The SRO and Armed Security guard stood outside the school doing nothing while the shooters shot innocent students.


Law enforcement changed their tactics after Columbine. They used to wait for backup, SWAT, etc... Now they enter immediately with an active shooter. Doing this in Connecticut probably saved dozens of lives--the shooter killed himself as officers approached the classroom he was shooting up.

I work in a school, I have a CCW and a handgun. I don't think I would every take it to school. It makes me nervous to have a handgun around a bunch of teens, angry parents at basketball games, etc... I think the chances of stopping a school shooter are very slim because the odds of it happening are very slim. The chances of the concealed weapon creating some sort of problem for me or others seems to be much higher. I have to admit, however, that this incident has me rethinking a bit.

This tragedy upsets me more than anything other than 9/11. I just cannot comprehend the horror. My heart goes out to the victims, families, first responders, and everyone else involved.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> AF CYN wrote: I work in a school, I have a CCW and a handgun. I don't think I would every take it to school. It makes me nervous to have a handgun around a bunch of teens, angry parents at basketball games, etc... I think the chances of stopping a school shooter are very slim because the odds of it happening are very slim. The chances of the concealed weapon creating some sort of problem for me or others seems to be much higher. I have to admit, however, that this incident has me rethinking a bit.


You are correct the chances are slim, and of all the school shootings there hasn't been a second incident at the same school. That being said, if it did happen at your school and your gun was locked up in your car or at home you just may wish you had it with you.

You need to get with cosmo and we can go down to Front Sight this spring and it may help you with your decision. I have some certificates and would love to take you both down.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Here are two articles related to this topic that I found to be enlightening; I had not previously really considered either of these two aspects, yet old Barry is fast to strike while the iron is hot with an ignorant public wanting something to be done:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/josephgrenn ... -king-law/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 11009.html


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

USMARINEhuntinfool said:


> A few thoughts,
> 
> 1st- People continue to blame these types of things on lack of value in human life, or a "culture of violence" that has suddenly sprung upon society. I'm sorry but this faction of society has been around since the dawn of man. There has and always will be a portion of society that will prey upon others within society. Look back until the beginning of time and show me a time when there was not this section of society. You will not find such a time.
> 
> 5th- The old saying goes, "All that needs to happen for evil to prevail, is for good men to stand idly by and do nothing." In my opinion this has become the way of our society. Society as a whole has lost the will to fight evil and win. The majority of society wants to bury their head in the sand or legislate their way out of these types of situations, sorry but that can't happen. If you don't want this to happen in your society, take a proactive roll. Train yourself and others to protect yourselves and the innocent. The only thing that can stop an evil man with a gun is a good man with one.


I agree that evil has been around forever and will continue to be with us. What has changed is how we deal with it. Your number 5 point is one part of it. Anothter part that has changed is what we except as a society. We now spend more time and money trying to rehab an individual with a criminal record that is 20 pages long that is not going to change. We except a 14 year olds poor and violent conduct towards a teacher. We punish a 20 year old soldier in a battle zone more harshly for taking pictures then the commander and chief for lying under oath. We let a convicted murderer bleed the system for 20 years and some how call this justice. We some how feel compelled to blame the gun or magazine capacity, but not the car or the cell phone. These items and your number 5 comment are the changes that have taken place in my life time.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Lots of good discussion here. I don't know what to add really except maybe this. The Patriot Act was, and still is, opposed by many who feel that others reading their email is a violation of privacy rights. In all reality, that is quite passive by all counts. It does not affect our everyday life, people really have no idea if it happens to them or not. And that passive invasion of our right to privacy we chalk up, though begrudgingly, in the interest of national security. If legislation is desired that really could provide public protection from crazy, the path would be far more personal, and far more invasive. To be truly effective would require either a direct, or virtual criminalization for being mentally ill. And evaluation of such moves the powers of police, judiciary, law making, juries, and sentencing into the hands of mental health professionals. And to be truly effective to prohibit events such as this, would have to be proactive and preemptive. And horrible as this event is, I'm not sure I'm ready to go there.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

We live in an imperfect world where tragedies are going to happen regardless of what means in utilized when these tragedies unfold. The best thing we can do is pray to God that he will provide us the direction and give us exactly what we need every day. We probably will never comprehend why things like this happen until we make it to the other side. In the meantime, I look to God for hope and peace. To look anywhere else for hope, peace, or justice would be looking for an incomplete solution. The only consolation I could offer to any of those families that lost children on Friday is that you know those innocent souls are in a better place and that it was good in that God called them home before they had a chance to jeopardize their reservations in heaven. I guess you'd call my viewpoint that of an ultra-logical Christian. It has allowed me to deal with tragedies of my own and I pray that the families affected by this calamity can employ something similar to this to help them move forward and attain a measure of peace.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I was just thinking. On average, there are about 7.8 elective abortion procedures every minute, of every day, in the United States. That means that in the time it took police to respond to the shooting in Connecticut on Friday, about 40 elective abortions occurred. And about 33,698 in the 72 hours since. Something to think about.


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

BirdDogger said:


> > These teachers should be required to carry!
> 
> 
> I have to disagree with the proposed requirement. I have worked with some folks in the schools that shouldn't be within a mile of a sharp knife, let alone a gun.


Then the next question is: Why do we have those people educating our children?!?!?! That's a discussion all in its own!


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## gregkdc (May 19, 2008)

As horrific and appalling the shooting was I think Barry has his work cut out for him. There are people out there who would love nothing more than to see the second amendment scrubbed form the constitution, but I also see just as many if not more people who realize gun control would do nothing to stop what has happened. As a country we already tried the Brady bill and it didn't work, the majority of Americans are wise to this. Not to mention the guy was severely mentally ill and it is hard to take other peoples right in light of this fact. The school was a gun free zone so technically it was already and area of complete gun control. Last didn’t he break a window that triggered an alarm? This should be a good lesson for everyone that you really can't rely on gun control, security systems and/or the police for your safety. 

P.S. how the media has handled this is disgusting at best.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

My wife and I were talking about this because she works at a school and she wishes that in order to gain access to a building an individual would have to pass through two separate steel doors that are individually locked and a guard would lead them through a metal detector before they could gain access to the school.

Make it work like a prison if necessary


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

GaryFish said:


> I was just thinking. On average, there are about 7.8 elective abortion procedures every minute, of every day, in the United States. That means that in the time it took police to respond to the shooting in Connecticut on Friday, about 40 elective abortions occurred. And about 33,698 in the 72 hours since. Something to think about.


Yeah but those kids aren't cute. :mrgreen:

But these kids are as cut as buttons and if the news were to compile these deaths they could do a 4 hr special every Monday on the tragedy that is drowning. But the answer to this is never to drain the pool. http://www.poseidon-tech.com/us/statistics.html


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

Iron Bear said:


> Yeah but those kids aren't cute. :mrgreen:
> 
> But these kids are as cut as buttons and if the news were to compile these deaths they could do a 4 hr special every Monday on the tragedy that is drowning. But the answer to this is never to drain the pool. http://www.poseidon-tech.com/us/statistics.html


Great point


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I (and others) mentioned the problem of inadequate care for mental illness in this country. This article elaborates the thought nicely.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/12/ ... tally-ill/


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## riptheirlips (Jun 30, 2008)

jahan said:


> idiot with a bow said:
> 
> 
> > 1 officer to 4 or 5 schools?! There seems to be plenty of cops writing parking tickets and generally raising all sorts of revenue. Priorities.


 But rather than banning guns, we need more good people with guns.

I agree, we will never know but what if the principle would have had a pistol when she confronted this idiot. What would the out come have been. I agree with others on here that this school and most schools are gun free zones but yet somehow the criminals find away to take the guns in the schools. Just like they will always find a way to get a gun even when Obama tries to ban them.


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

I spent some time on sunday arguing with a gentleman up in canada, mostly to no avail. I brought up several times the point that bad men do evil things no matter what tools are around and he was pretty dead set that guns are the problem not the people. He also brought up several times that gun crimes in other countries with more strict gun laws have less firearm deaths than the US. It's just amazing that people can't see past the guns they want to treat the symptoms not the causes.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Maybe, just maybe it is not the guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UhO0Pul_FcE#!

even Michael Moore thinks so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dSZ9YTnSkLc#!


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

And....who needs guns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster


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## Afishnado (Sep 18, 2007)

My family and I own many semi-auto firearms and high capacity clips. Shooting sports and hunting are a big part of our family. One thing is for sure though, a Kennedy's car has killed more people that any of my firearms ever will.........


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

> The Oklahoma blast claimed 168 lives, *including 19 children under the age of 6* and injured more than 680 people. The blast destroyed or damaged 324 buildings within a sixteen-block radius, destroyed or burned 86 cars, and shattered glass in 258 nearby buildings. The bomb was estimated to have caused at least $652 million worth of damage.












-DallanC


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Afishnado said:


> My family and I own many semi-auto firearms and high capacity clips. Shooting sports and hunting are a big part of our family. One thing is for sure though, a Kennedy's car has killed more people that any of my firearms ever will.........


Amen to that!


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

DallanC said:


> > The Oklahoma blast claimed 168 lives, *including 19 children under the age of 6* and injured more than 680 people. The blast destroyed or damaged 324 buildings within a sixteen-block radius, destroyed or burned 86 cars, and shattered glass in 258 nearby buildings. The bomb was estimated to have caused at least $652 million worth of damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, they will find a way to kill.

Btw, I'm setting in a docs office about 5 blocks from the memorial as I type this, folks down here don't buy into the anti gun bulls$$t. :mrgreen:


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

In an ironic twist of fate we had a young man bring some .380 bullets to school today. A young lady reported that she had seen some bullets in a backpack at school. She didn't know who the boy was nor had he been in her class. The boy had opened the backpack in the hall and she had caught a glimpse of the bullets. I am the principal's designee every Tuesday when he gone to principals meeting at the district office, so guess who was on duty today...yours truly. I kind of had an "Oh shiz!" moment when I realized that the girl had a very credible story and that we were now searching the school for weapons. I wound up calling our principal to clue him in on what was going on. He left his other business immediately and we went to work on the investigation. 

Anyway, it took about an hour to go back through the video on the camera in the hallway where this was reported. We eventually got an ID on the boy, so we first searched his locker. Nothing. Then we pulled the boy out of class to search his backpack. He fessed up right from the start that he accidentally had some bullets left in the pack after having gone target shooting with his father over the weekend. They used the backpack to carry the guns and ammo. A few bullets had accidentally been left behind. 

In another school or in another area, this boy would have possibly faced arrest. We called the boy's dad to verify his target shooting story. We then took the bullets and sent the boy back to class, confident that he was not a danger to anyone. The girl who had reported seeing the bullets was given a candy bar, a hearty thanks, and a raffle ticket for a prize drawing that our school does at the end of each month (kids who get caught doing good things get raffle tickets). Everybody in our story came out a winner or with a lesson learned. Thank goodness! I was pretty nervous for a minute or two. -)O(-


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

DallanC said:


> > The Oklahoma blast claimed 168 lives, *including 19 children under the age of 6* and injured more than 680 people. The blast destroyed or damaged 324 buildings within a sixteen-block radius, destroyed or burned 86 cars, and shattered glass in 258 nearby buildings. The bomb was estimated to have caused at least $652 million worth of damage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Plotrunner posted this on the GP.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Lots and lots of very good thoughts and discussions. After a week of this thing simmering in my mind, I have a few random thoughts:
-Bad guys do bad things, and will use whatever means they can find. 
-In a country of 300 million people, the fact that roughly 1 in 100 million tend to go off every year (3 this year), that is a freaking miracle in itself. 
-Society isn't broken. The system isn't broken. We do not need to reinvent the mental health industry, gun control, or even re-visit all of our school security measures. From a statistical perspective, this extreme outlyer does not warrant major policy changes in anything.
-We have a very compassionate, expressive, and diverse population in this country. The heartbreaking news of this event has touched our country like none other. 
-We have a President wanting to do whatever it takes to make sure that 20 innocent children can never be hurt again, but he pursues all legal protections to those that end the lives of over 11,000 unborn babies every day. 
-I truly believe that as gun owners, we look foolish trying to diminish the destructive powers of guns. They are in deed, very destructive tools. And like many other tools with such power, can be useful in the hands of sane and capable people, and horribly bad in the hands of insane or incapable people. Their use is the responsibility of the person holding it clearly. At the same time, they allow bad people to do a whole lot of damage should they choose to use them for bad. And quite honestly, I am struggling reconciling all that in my mind.
-Lastly - all that said, I have always been an owner of sporting arms - shotguns and rifles for hunting, 22s for plinking and target shooting. My 12 gauge pump is my home protection weapon of choice. I've never been a handgun guy for a variety of reasons I won't get into. But I have to say - in light of this experience, however much an outlyer it is, I plan to purchase a personal protection handgun, get adequate training, and get a CCW permit in the coming year. And in all reality, I think that sucks.


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## Bscuderi (Jan 2, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_NllT ... ata_player

This outlines my thoughts exactly what the hell is going on here and why are people using this tragedy and corrupting it for there political agenda. Something sel doesn't add up and we have to trust media?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm willing to cut the news media at least a little slack with inconsistencies here. The police were overwhelmed with what they found. All early reports were "un official reports," or "unidentified source" which says to me that if they weren't willing to put their name on the source, they were not 100% sure of the facts. And I'm no forensic guy, but within hours to say that every one of the victims had been shot with the same caliber bullet and weapon is irresponsible and unrealistic as well. It takes time to go through stuff. Do interviews with the survivors. Collect and analyze the forensic evidence. Which is a huge reason why in most police cases, things are very non-specific in the first 24-48 hours. Additionally, when one reporter throws something out in copy, twitter feed, or news blip, it takes legs and gets repeated and distorted with each generation of information exchange. 

The assertion that this was some kind of conspiracy, or even worse, some assertions that Obama was behind this and faked his tears to really sell it - well, that's about the most crazy thing I've ever heard. You've got to have a lot of tin foil on your head to buy into that one. Seriously.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

GaryFish said:


> And I'm no forensic guy, but within hours to say that every one of the victims had been shot with the same caliber bullet and weapon is irresponsible and unrealistic as well. It takes time to go through stuff. Do interviews with the survivors. Collect and analyze the forensic evidence. Which is a huge reason why in most police cases, things are very non-specific in the first 24-48 hours.


That is right. My brother is a CSI for one of the municipalities along the Wasatch front. He told me that it took several days to process the Trolley Square incident and that only involved 5-8 victims and the assailant. This case in Connecticut is far worse.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

It has been a week, hundreds of hours of media, and THIS is the best discussion I have seen. My thoughts. Guns are dangerous, why do we as gun owners tell our kids this, then try to pretend they aren't, of course they are. The incredible ammount of safety has made us weak. Most of the kids in my neighborhood only knowledge of guns comes from the xbox. They have never seen the carnage that a bullet does in an animal, or god forbid a person. To them its is a cool thing that makes cool noise. We have fooled ourselfs about police. I live in a city with over 20,000 people, I believe I read we have about 20 cops, how are they supposed to protect you? When I was a kid(in the 80's) we had crazy people. There were "weird" kids. I hate to see kids picked on, or left out, it breaks my heart, but in teaching our kids that everyone is good, everyone is the same, we left out that some are evil, some are damaged. We have a drug problem, and the violence that surrounds it is REAL, and THEY have weapons, not real wild about me not having them. I think ARs are ugly. I like wood and blued, but in my hands my lever action will put out a lot of firepower. If we ban 30 shots clips does that mean a 29 shot clip makes me instantly safer? Why did me and my friends all have shotguns in our cars in highschool, and non of us shot anyone? Today Wayne LaPierre made a point that made my head spin, by the time a kid turns 18 he has seen 16,000 murders via "entertainment", I think that speaks volumes. Lastly I am not a warrior. Truth be told I will most likely run like a girl if the shooting starts, but I would like to think that if push comes to shove I would stand up and fight, and I sure like the idea of using a gun, rather than my fist and hoping the bad guys can't shoot long enough for me to hit him. Good honest discussion guys, hope some of this happens in the near future.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

This story is clearly THE headliner for so many reasons. Hearings will be held on everything from gun restrictions, school security systems, mental health issues, media representations, the safety of our children, and picking the fly crap out of the pepper when it comes to defining it all. 

Among all those discussions, one that is missing in my view - I don't believe our society is broken. 

I live on a street with three women who have been widowed - and when it snows, they never need to touch their shovels, because the snow will be cleared from their driveways and sidewalks before people do their own. And it is darn near a race to see who can get it done first among the many good neighbors. 

This past week, several radio stations have been doing a radio-a-thon to raise money for the Road Home - a homeless shelter that helps people get back on their feet. And in doing, they'll raise a million dollars - not out of compulsion, but out of compassion. 

I've attended several different high school concerts this holiday season, and helped fill santa hats and big jugs with money to help Big Brother/Big Sisters, Sub for Santa, and a variety of great outreach things- as organized by kids - to help others.

I read on this website about plans for a Ice Fishing party - where people are volunteering time, money, and other resources, to provide a fun day to teach kids how to fish - just for the love of helping kids.

A regular Secret Santa shows up here at UWN every year, to help a family or two in need - and keeps it anonymous. And this is one very little tiny corner of the world. 

If we all sat down and tried to make a list of these types of kindness and pure compassion we see in our lives every day - I'm sure we'd have "binders full of goodness". My point is this I guess - This massacre was awful. I can think of nothing more awful than assaulting defenseless children. It is clearly a very extreme case and does not in anyway, reflect our society - our America. It is one person out of 300 million that wigged out. I won't believe our society is broken when this kind of thing still shocks the bejeebers out of us. When we stop getting so upset over this, then I'll worry. When we stop trying to figure it out, as rare as it is, then we are in trouble. While this thing has chipped away at my hope in people, I am at the same inspired at the outpouring from the entire country - regardless of race, religion, or anything else. We are a very compassionate people. In spite of one really screwed up person.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Dang good point Gary. I do however think there is a coursness running through our society. And I think it is getting worse. Andy Griffith show would never make it to the air. There does seem to be race to the bottom in entertainment, and our kids(mine included) spend too much time taking it in. And I am guilty. I don't play a lot of games, but when I do, its always a first person shooter, it can't be good for kids to do do the same. 
I really believe we are not judgemental enough, when I was a kid there were crazy people, bad people, mean people, etc, now we teach our kids everyone is special, everyone in just like us, don't make judgements, then tell them not to talk to strangers, stay off the internet, no wonder they are confused.

I am pretty sure this is making a lot of us think a little. I know I started carrying more, not just when I went to "bad places". I even had a talk with my son about getting down and away from the doors and windows if something happens. Pretty sad i guess, but older generations prepared for the a bomb, too bad our kids have to face evil.


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## goose_716 (Sep 22, 2007)

I believe that a trained security person in each and every school is the right and only answer. Parents use xbox, playstation and such as a baby sitter. There are people on this game that let their anger get away from them because they are losing and such. The lash out and use language that is quite loud so to speak. They haven't learned self control you lost or someone played the game better then you. Self control is the key. Parents are not teaching them this. We as a society are failing from within and it is always someone elses fault. What happen after 9/11? Trying to get on an airplane now is much different. the govt found the money for this. This is our children there is no doubt in my mind if parents wanted their children to be safe they wouldn't have a problem with a slight tax increase to help offset the cost. Really is there any other solution. In order to fight violence you must have an equalizer so to speak. I mean 9/11 and so many other incidents have proven this over and over. If you were to hear a gunshot in the mall what would you hope for? Me i would hope that their was a person with a CCW and was prepared or an armed security guard or something of that sort. Why is this still an argument? The media contributes to this greatly. They direct the thinking of the people by what they show and people hear. They got onboard on something being needed after 9/11 and look at your airports now. What happen in CT is like an act of terrorisi from within our borders. The answer is out there it truly is plain and simple as a parent i don't necissarily like it but then again i don't like the airport frisking now a days. We got used to that we will get used to armed security in schools and the money will be offset if wanted and needed.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Schools need to be locked down, with a armed guard inside. If you dont lock it down, the guard is simply the first target. I'm afraid we lock down a school, put armed guards inside and some nut starts picking kids off in the playground from 300 yards like that wacko back in Texas years back.


-DallanC


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

There are consequences for living in any type of society.

We can't live in a bubble.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Schools need to be locked down, with a armed guard inside. If you dont lock it down, the guard is simply the first target. I'm afraid we lock down a school, put armed guards inside and some nut starts picking kids off in the playground from 300 yards like that wacko back in Texas years back.
> 
> -DallanC


I thought about that as well. It doesn't do you much good to secure the building when all the kids go out for recess twice a day. How do you fix that problem...plow the schools we have, and turn them into compounds with the playgrounds on the interior? There are lots of logistical issues here. One guard wouldn't do much good if they were the first ones attacked and the attacker was successful. Its just so hard to think of ways to really protect against all of the ways that a school could be attacked.

The company I work for is cash-driven. Almost all customers pay in cash, and because of this, theft is a big concern. We know it happens, and know a few ways to prevent it with a strict check-and-balance system and accountability for all associates, but even with these seemingly "air-tight" procedures, we know theft still occurs. The best way to prevent it remains sneak attacks administered at random times when NOBODY expects it. It is a surprisingly effective tactic. All it takes is catching one or two people in the act, and it doesn't take long for the word to get out amongst the rest of the crew that someone was caught. We punish to the fullest extent of the law, and it sends a message to everyone to keep their nose clean. Let's apply this to what we see in these mass shootings.

A common thread seems to be that attackers are targeting facilities and people who will offer the least resistance. These are areas that have been declared "gun-free" zones, either by law, or through private company policy. Whatever the reason, these areas pose a weak, defenseless target just waiting to be attacked by someone who understands that vulnerability. How is that vulnerability overcome? A couple things come to mind, but only one seems to make any economical sense. Post a sign at every entrance/exit saying "2nd Amendment Rights are supported by this institution/business. CWP encouraged." The message this sends to everyone who enters is that there are any number of people who are armed in this place. To the dirtbag who may be contemplating a mass-shooting, it says "this isn't a place I can accomplish destruction." It is a deterrent because they know they will meet resistance.

This is just my opinion, and I know there will be those who disagree with it. I respect that. But we need to look at any and all options to protect from this kind of thing happening, especially to our kids. This whole problem is multi-faceted. I believe some of it is steeped in mental illness, some comes from disrespect for life, and I think a lot of it comes from just plain ignorance about guns. They are powerful. They are meant to be powerful enough to kill. But so are bows and arrows, slingshots, BB guns, swords, and knives. This debate seems to be more about guns than anything else, and that tells me the motivation of the gun control side is more about destroying guns than keeping people from dying. Just a few random thoughts.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

A few more thoughts on this, now that some time is passed.


1. Several folks have mentioned "locking down" schools, elimination of recess, and really ramping up security. While I am in favor of an increased police presence in our schools for multiple reasons, I have great reluctance in turning our schools into medium security prisons. As terrible beyond belief as this event was, it is an isolated event. We need a bit of a reality check. Nationally, a child is far more likely to die from getting killed in an auto or bus accident traveling to/from school than being shot en masse by one of these nutjobs. IMO, it is an overreaction to radically disrupt our kids education for the remote chance of a repeat event. Trying to eliminate every possible chance for rare events is virtually impossible and one simply cannot live ones life that way. 

2. The reason that the Left is focusing on gun control right now is that it is relatively "easy" to pass new gun control regs. It is much harder to come up with better mental health care nationally, or to fund increased security/police in our schools. The problem is that Americans want action now. I agree with most of you that the type of gun control talked about will do little to curb criminals and mainly punishes the law abiding gun owners. However, "our" side has to realize that just sitting back and saying "we don't want to change anything" or come up with lame alternatives will not gain us points with the general public. Personally, I do favor closing the loophole that allows anyone to buy guns from private sellers or gunshows. It is not a cure-all by any means, but if it keeps a few guns out of the hands of the insane, then it is worth it.

3. I don't think any action is going to prevent all events like this. It is a sad reality of life. But I do still feel the best thing that can be done is to improve our nations deplorable mental health care delivery. If even half of these guys are helped and prevented from carrying out a horrifying act, then it is worth it. I still feel it has a better chance long term than taking away all of the public's guns.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Catherder said:


> A few more thoughts on this, now that some time is passed.
> 
> 1. Several folks have mentioned "locking down" schools, elimination of recess, and really ramping up security. While I am in favor of an increased police presence in our schools for multiple reasons, I have great reluctance in turning our schools into medium security prisons. As terrible beyond belief as this event was, it is an isolated event. We need a bit of a reality check. Nationally, a child is far more likely to die from getting killed in an auto or bus accident traveling to/from school than being shot en masse by one of these nutjobs. IMO, it is an overreaction to radically disrupt our kids education for the remote chance of a repeat event. Trying to eliminate every possible chance for rare events is virtually impossible and one simply cannot live ones life that way.
> 
> ...


I agree with #1 & #3, but I have an issue with #2. And the issue is this; When will it be enough? By backing off, we're telling them that all they have to do is keep pushing long enough with these "easy" minor infringements and they'll eventually make it difficult enough for us to keep and bear arms that we'll simply give them up ourselves. The paperwork, the costs, the number of government entities we have to deal with, the stigma, the court cases, the media and the continued tragedies will take their toll on the 2nd Amendment. Some will stop pushing if we impose background checks on ALL applicants and others will stop when we register "assault rifles", while others will stop only when they are banned and others, only when "assault weapons" (including handguns) are banned, and others...... To answer my own question; to some, it will only be enough when ALL guns are out of the hands of the people. In other words, it's never enough! These "easy" minor infringements will go on forever! Haven't you noticed how often they bring up the automatic weapon ban of the 30's to prove the 2nd Amendment isn't valid now? And the Assault Weapons Ban which expired? Any further infringements will just strengthen their resolve and put us further down the road to the loss of this right, probably by our own doing. I hope I'm wrong, but I'll not live long enough to challenge them all, will you?


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

elkfromabove said:


> When will it be enough? By backing off, we're telling them that all they have to do is keep pushing long enough


I guess it depends on who you call "them". Yes, if "them" refers to hard core anti gun crowd, then you are correct. However, these folks aren't going to ultimately decide the issue. The majority of America is not in this category and are more reasonable. Moves like making it uniform when you buy a firearm whether it is from a store, a show, or private owner will be more than adequate to satisfy most of the public. The point is, don't look at most of America as the enemy in this issue.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

GaryFish said:


> ......Among all those discussions, one that is missing in my view - I don't believe our society is broken......


The good things that you have listed tell us that there is hope, but to say our society is not broke is not correct in my opinion. In my opinion it is the same as putting your head in the sand and hoping it will go away.

Just look at the changes that have taken place at the schools in the last 50 years and you will know that things are broke.

The problem is not the object but the mind behind the object.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Catherder said:


> elkfromabove said:
> 
> 
> > When will it be enough? By backing off, we're telling them that all they have to do is keep pushing long enough
> ...


I didn't (and don't) look at most of America as the _enemy_ in this issue, but it's not likely they'll be a be strong proponants either. Since gun ownership doesn't have enough of a high priorty to influence their vote, most of America will just obey the law and go on with their lives, at least until it's too late to do anthing about it. Yes, they will ultimately decide the issue by their actions or by their inactions.

Meanwhile, "them", the hard core and not so hard core anti gun crowd, will keep infringing on this right in varying degrees until it gets too expensive, cumbersome and unpopular for most of America to own and/or use any gun. You're right when you say moves "like" making it uniform when you buy a firearm will satisfy most of the public, but how many "like" moves would that be? Registeration? Further taxes? Type of firearms allowed? Number of firearms allowed? Number of clips? Size of clips? Amount of ammo? Longer waiting periods? More invasive background checks? Published ownership lists? Individually, those are all "reasonable" laws or actions, depending on who you're talking to, but when viewed together, it's obvious "them" are simply eating an elephant (or a bag of popcorn). o-||


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## MKP (Mar 7, 2010)

I just thought people might want to see this, as it shows what many Americans may want.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159569/americans-stricter-gun-laws-oppose-bans.aspx

Stricter laws, but no bans. Neither would have helped, of course. (1994 Clinton assault weapons ban was in full effect in the 1999 Columbine shooting, was it not?)


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I was just reading a few articles with comments regarding the training of teachers to carry weapons in school and had to comment. I was amazed at the number of folks who believe that it is the responsibility of someone else to provide protection for them. There were so many comments denoting protection as the job of the police and military. When did the police become responsible to protect every citizen? Where has personal responsibility gone? Police are there to do what they can, but at the ratio of officers to citizens it becomes pretty obvious to me that their help will be limited in scope. What a helpless, weak, society we have become. No wonder criminals simply have their way with the general public most of the time. Grow some teeth people. Your safety and defense is ultimately YOUR responsibility first. I also laugh at how the paint the average person to be untrained and incapable of defending themselves. Their comments must mainly reflect themselves because I know alot of people who are more than capable and a couple who have had to prove it. Liberals sure have a low opionion of what we are as citizens and humans.---------SS


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