# Reverse the Trend



## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

Since I have been old enough to hunt big game I have noticed a disturbing pattern. A lot of limits have been placed on my hunting opportunities. Some have been sound necessary measures, others seem to be overkill, and some seem to be political. My first big game hunt ever was a rifle hunt on the Henry Mts. Now I am not allowed to look at the Henry Mtns. , I really shouldn't even be talking about them. Recently they have recommended we discontinue the state wide archery hunt (stupid). I want this to stop. So we are going to use this thread to come up with proposals for new opportunities. Any proposal you want. Don't worry about biology, the good of the herd, or anything pertinent for that matter. I want you to propose with emotion and passion. Get carried away, think big. This is what some small group of whineys are doing and it is working wonders for them. 

So here is mine... I want the extended archery hunt to include Utah County. Not too much to ask. It's just that I live in Salt Lake and there is a lot of people from Utah County coming up here and hunting my deer. I feel it's a little overcrowded and I wish they would just stay down there. I feel like I could get a few special interest groups behind this and make it work. I hope to have my deer back by next season. 

Now lets hear what you guys can come up with.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

lets do away with the extended archery hunt, in archery they already get 30 days to hunt. if we are going to have an extended hunt for the archery then the muzzle loaders should get the same.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

Micro manage everything into small units. Allocate tags according to the deer numbers in the unit. Set aside some units for trophy class deer hunting, and some for general every year draws. Each unit should have archery, muzzleloader, and rifle seasons. Some units should have late season options possibly archery or muzzleloader late hunts.
Micro Manage!
[attachment=0:279y463o]wmunits.jpg[/attachment:279y463o]


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Simply depends on witch trend you reverse, If your for a "BETTER" deer herd, you go with HJBs map, And add three point or better to half the units and in no time we have big bucks.

OR..........

We reverse to more opportunity and continue to loose quality.....

While I agree it is habitat,habitat,habitat!!

It would be much more effective using a micro manage type system, Which I vote for.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

If I'm wishful thinking, than I say screw the micro manage, 3-point or better, and LE units. Let's go back to having fun. Issue 70,000 deer tags first come first service. Let us hunt all three hunts like the old days. Take the saved money from the hoop jumping and redo the habitat.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Archery elk sept 1st through the 30th. No cap on tags.

Statewide archery elk, any bull. No cap on tags.

Statewide archery deer, any unit, any buck.

Wasatch extended traditional gear only from Nov 1st till season closing.

Wasatch extended from Sardine canyon to Spanish Fork canyon.

Rifle hunt divided into three ten day hunts. Early, middle, late, choose your hunt. This would help crowding problems.

Give the Muzzy guys back the season they had ten years ago during the rut.

Three point or better statewide on deer no exceptions.

Make the punishment for game violations match the crime. Stiffer fines and mandatory jail time fro poaching big bucks and bulls.

Outlaw special interest groups and bounty hunting.

Give the DWR and the RACK system and enema and get some people in there that are interested in managing game the right way. *BIOLOGICALLY!* Not with behind the scenes hand shakes and "good ol boy" politics.

Hey, you said get carried away... 8)


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

If what you have started here Brian isn't a proof of "you can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time" then I don't know what is. 

If SFW was in the middle of this battle then they would be awsome save the world guys to some and Crooked polotitians to others. 

Why are there only a few of us that can see this?


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Archery elk sept 1st through the 30th. No cap on tags.
> 
> Statewide archery elk, any bull. No cap on tags.
> 
> ...


I agree almost 100%...


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## blackbear (Oct 18, 2007)

**** tex Im disappointed...

Primitive weapons hunt to run year round. Hunters can kill 2 does and 1 buck throughout the year. With exception to does during the spring & early summer to allow for fawning. 
Oh yeah, and allow stone points and spears.


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## Tattertot (Sep 14, 2007)

I love this.

*Idiot with a bow* you say getting rid of state wide archery is "stupid" and then make the following comment.



> I want the extended archery hunt to include Utah County. Not too much to ask. It's just that I live in Salt Lake and there is a lot of people from Utah County coming up here and hunting my deer. I feel it's a little overcrowded and I wish they would just stay down there. I feel like I could get a few special interest groups behind this and make it work. I hope to have my deer back by next season.


Well here's my idea:

I want to get rid of the state wide archery hunt. Not too much to ask. It's just that I live in Sevier County and there is a lot of people from Northern Utah coming down here and hunting my deer. I feel it's a little overcrowded and I wish they would just stay up there. I feel like I could get a few special interest groups behind this and make it work. I hope to have my deer back by next season.

Wow, you don't like "outsiders" coming in and overcrowding "your deer", but you're okay with everyone in the state being able to come in and overcrowd "my deer". Doesn't make a lot of sense.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I am very sad we don't have wild boar in Utah, the first thing I'd like to do is Bring a few semi trailers worth of pigs and let them go. Year round hunt, of course.

I have access to several machine guns, I'm VERY upset it's illegal for me to use them to hunt. That needs to change.

I'd like to hunt deer and elk with dogs, it sounds like fun and I don't care for my dogs being discriminated against. Where the equal opportunity? The ACLU should expect a phone call.

I think it's only fair that hunters are restricted to hunting within 30 square mile of their primary domicile. Like idiot said, I get sick of people hunting MY deer on the extended. 

I would also like 'archery' tags turned into 'no gun' tags. That way I can legally kill a deer with a snare, foothold trap, pit with stakes at the bottom, net, trip wire, mortars, my truck, poison (Only if he's a real trophy, of course.) and the snowmobile and baseball bat method.

And what's with this "season" stuff anyway???? I should be able to kill MY deer whenever I want. It's my god given right as a whiny American.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Tattertot said:


> I love this.
> 
> *Idiot with a bow* you say getting rid of state wide archery is "stupid" and then make the following comment.
> 
> ...


Taterguy, I think you missed and made the point.


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

You see what you want to see and the fact that only a few see it should ring resounding in your ears. SFW has done a lot for the herds, but they have done more for, (although it sounds good at first it is actually counter active to the big picture,) the people, or do they...... When you can back up your success efforts with pictures of huge bucks taken on the Henery mountian, spidey taken with a conservation tag, (I think, there are so many rumors of that bull, who knows who killed it and when and how.) etc.... they represent a very small percentage of the people. I promise you that I think SFW is helping, but they are also end running around the biology of this whole process and rac meetings which are simply a forum for public opinion is proof that the process in place over rides the process the constituion of Utah Government put in place. Yes, input from the public is valuable, but never should it over ride what is best for the resource, the herds. I feel that input from the small represented public has twisted the arm of a governmental process that should never be swayed in that way. 22 you can not please all of the people, and thus you have to piss some off, but it should not be me or you or sfw or bob's bank that does the pissing, it should be the wildlife board making decisions on what is best for the resource basing those decissions on data recieved from government employees that went thru the process of education in wildlife biology and showed thru an interview process that they could qualify as an expert in the field so that the data could be actual and independent of public oppinion. Instead, we have a system that finds out what the people that poney up want, and figures out a way to scew the data to give those people what they want. This is what is known, learned from history, as a corrupt system. Mind you corrupt does not need to conotate dishonesty, it does not need to infer that these are ill intended folks doing ill intended things, it is corrupt only because it is not working as it should be. This happens all the time, it happens in Utah USA Wrestling where everyone involved only want's to do what is best for the kids, and so well inteded folks get together and come up with ways to do things different, maybe even better, and then we find out there are by laws and proccesses that were violated and thus we have a corrupt system. Not a bad, dishonest, ill inteded system, just one that has veared from the way it was inteded to be and thus not pure. Now, stop the trend inteded by this thread goes to my real thoughts. If a non corrupt board sat down and did what they were supposed to do as inteded by it's set up constitution and quit turning a fine horse into a cammel while utilizing thier board meetings to come up with all of the proposed changes that seem to have to come up when you are trying to please any of the people any of the time. Instead, save money on the cost of prouduction of our big game proclemation and simplify this down to: Here is our herd, these are their needs, here is how we can meet those needs. If anyone feels I need to go into a bit more detail on this and how hunting is a very important cog in this wildlife wheel, we have nothing but time......


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

Tater, 
You have to know that idiot is a very big tounge in cheek sort of guy. And you also have to know that they ain't your deer, they are mine.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Epek, it is with a humble heart and a bowed head that I come to you and ask; Can I shoot one of your deer?

Good post, by the way.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Sorry EPEK and Tater, you both are wrong. They are my deer.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

No, your deer are on the west side of the valley. You must live east of I-15 to have any kind of claim on those deer, west sider. Say hi to the cooks at the soup kitchen.


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## CP1 (Oct 1, 2007)

SFW is 100% the driving force behind doing away with the statewide archery hunt! They have no biological proof, only selfish motives! I will be the first to say that SFW has done many, many, great things in this state BUT I will also be the first to say they are very selfish- lobyists -who know how to get things done, and that can be very bad for the average joe!
WHAT IS BEST FOR THE DEER HERDS 
WHAT IS BEST FOR THE DEER HERDS
WHAT IS BEST FOR THE DEER HERDS
That is what needs to be looked at first! Then we can look at ways to increase opportunity, as the herds grow! 
If we lose the statewide archery hunt, we will never get it back -EVER!


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

I really should have added, "also" to the they are my deer comment, but at the time I ran out of ink.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Tree

Does that mean I get to claim and hunt kennecott? Good trade!!!


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

No, only public property. The deer may belong to you, but the rock salt and shotguns belong to Kennecot.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

We got to get you east siders to look down once in awhile. You might see more game. :mrgreen:


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

1. Take the start date of the rifle hunt out of the hands of the legislature as mandated now, and put it in the hands of DWR - a real driving force on why so many "special hunts" since the "General Deer Hunt" is mandated to start on the 3rd satuday in October by the legislature. DWR should be allowed to manage by biology instead of politics.

2. Longer hunting seasons. 5-day hunts are unsafe and deterimental to the herds. I like TexOBob's concept of three 10-day hunts for rifle. Better yet - How about one 30-day hunt? Tag numbers are already capped, so over-hunting really wouldn't be an issue.

3. Give two tags - one to the highest bidder, and one by draw, for Antelope Island deer.

4. Give another two tags for the ultimate Antelope Island Hunt - one for bid and one by draw - but the tag allows you a deer, a bighorn sheep, and a bison. Money from draw stays on the island for habitat and whatever. The bid tag money can only be used for purchasing new habitat around the state. (bid starts at $500K)

5. I get a Deseret L & L bull elk tag and guided hunt for free every year for me and my immediate family for as long as I live.


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

Northern Archery hunters may go down south to hunt the general season, but then the southern boys come up to hunt the Northern extended archery season. 
Another reason for micro management, you should have to choose a dang unit and stick to it!


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

HJB said:


> Northern Archery hunters may go down south to hunt the general season, but then the southern boys come up to hunt the Northern extended archery season.
> Another reason for micro management, you should have to choose a dang unit and stick to it!


Why?


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

I would like to see hunting use a merit-based system of weapon selection.

Everyone starts out with a spear. Spear tags would be unlimited over the counter, statewide, all units, any buck/bull.

Once you get something with a spear, you "unlock" the longbow. Then the recurve, then the compound, then the flintlock, then the caplock, then the in-line, then the single-shot centerfire, followed by the repeating centerfire rifle.

At any time you could still go down the chain, being able to hunt statewide all unit spear. Going up the chain would result in more and more restrictions should you select an unlocked weapon. Archery would be as presently managed - statewide general units. By the time you got to rifle, you would need to pick a specific buck or bull, and take out a tag only for that specific animal with a season length of 3 days.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Oooh, I like that. 

I personally think that if you live in the southern region, you should only be allowed to hunt deer every 4 years.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

how about my company move my office to Montana and I'll just hunt and fish there. That would work. This year in Montana, you can buy up to 8 deer tags ($10/each) and hunt for 5 weeks with the rifle. Not a bad deal if you want to hunt, I mean shoot deer.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Threasher - I like your system. You left off hunting with a rock. No spear. Just a rock.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> 4. Give another two tags for the ultimate Antelope Island Hunt - one for bid and one by draw - but the tag allows you a deer, a bighorn sheep, and a bison. Money from draw stays on the island for habitat and whatever. The bid tag money can only be used for purchasing new habitat around the state. (bid starts at $500K)


Oh ya...I like that too!


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Great system Threshershark!!!!


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## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

HJB said:


> Micro manage everything into small units. Allocate tags according to the deer numbers in the unit. Set aside some units for trophy class deer hunting, and some for general every year draws. Each unit should have archery, muzzleloader, and rifle seasons. Some units should have late season options possibly archery or muzzleloader late hunts.
> Micro Manage!
> [attachment=0:3hq4jrp3]wmunits.jpg[/attachment:3hq4jrp3]


HJB, you are my new hero!!! -*|*-


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> HJB said:
> 
> 
> > Northern Archery hunters may go down south to hunt the general season, but then the southern boys come up to hunt the Northern extended archery season.
> ...


Because I'm tired of everybody whining about it.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Hey, I guess that's just as valid as their reasoning for taking it away.

But do you really think there is a biological need to pick a unit as an archer??


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

I think that the whole state should be ARCHERY only. One must draw for a rifle or muzzy tag. If you put in for a muzzy or rifle draw you must also pick a unit. If you fail to draw a rifle or muzzy tag you can still hunt with a bow anywhere in Utah. The season dates should be from middle of August to the middle of Dec. This allows archers, not riflemen, the opportunity to hunt elk in the rut (like they should be with archery equipment)....state-wide. 3x3 or better should also be implemented so as the herds don't diminish. 

The idea is that anyone can hunt wherever they want for 4-5 months as long as they use archery equipment. LE draws are not per UNIT but per WEAPON..........family deer hunting parties that once were may now be reinstated. :wink:


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## Ironman (Sep 7, 2007)

1- You can only hunt in the management area your home is in / the management area being managed by only elected residents from the area / to vote you must have filled your tag the previous year.

2- Flint lock and open sights only for muzz hunts

3- Private land owners can harvest, or allow anyone else from anywhere in the state to come and harvest any game on their land at any time of the year at any fee they want to charge.

4- Return Sheep numbers to their historical highs so the deer herd can rebound and the idiotic draws are eliminated.

5- Outlaw guides and outfitters on public lands.

6- Eradicate all pheasant killing critters.

7-To hunt deer, you must be camped out with extended family and close friends.

8- No out of state hunters allowed.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Get rid of ALL Limited Entry hunts and transition the whole state back to general season :shock: . Allow maximum number of tags (and it would be a lot of tags/opportunity) in all units so long as the buck to doe or bull cow ratio doesn't drop bellow 10-15 / 100. 

Yes I know the overal quality would drop on current LE units but I doubt I will draw accept maby once in my lifetime (if I'm lucky)anyaways so who gives a ****.

General Season every year and may the best hunters win! Isn't that how it was in the "good ol days"?


Hey this thread was for our dream hunting system reguardless of biology or politics right?


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## Ironman (Sep 7, 2007)

Oh, one more thing.

9- No wolves.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Ironman said:


> Oh, one more thing.
> 
> 9- No wolves.


Finally, a suggestion by you I agree with! 1 out of 9 ain't bad, good job. :wink:


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm with 10000. Fewer limiteds and fewer boundaries turn us back into people who hunt animals rather than tags.

I do like more opportunity- to hunt animals not "gauranteed" inches. 

The only time I wonder about too much opportunity would be those animals that seem to be pursued year round. The reason I disagree with the Utah County extended is that those animals differ from Salt Lake County in these important ways: They are chased in the spring (shed hunters) in the summer with archery, fall with muzz and rifle, and the extended is just too much. The animals do have the winter ground to sustain a larger population for those other seasons, but many of the deer coming into the extended in SL county come from areas where they are only hunted by bow, and I'm not even sure the same shed hunting pressure exists up there- but I have no real feel for it. I do know that the deer here are pursued with vigor all year round- non- stop. And extended would only add a lot of stress to the herd for no practical reason other than more chances for us to chase a herd that is already run ragged.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

I-400


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> I-400


 *()* -~|- -()/>- -()/- *(())* -*|*- *OOO* /**|**\ <<--O/ -/|\-


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## HornAddict (Oct 8, 2008)

Well whatever the DWR decides to do it better be better than it is now, the way the management is going is a crock of you know what. Whoever thinks that the game managed in utah is great than they must not hunt. Guess it's time to spend my money in another state.


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> I'm with 10000. Fewer limiteds and fewer boundaries turn us back into people who hunt animals rather than tags.
> 
> I do like more opportunity- to hunt animals not "gauranteed" inches.
> 
> The only time I wonder about too much opportunity would be those animals that seem to be pursued year round. The reason I disagree with the Utah County extended is that those animals differ from Salt Lake County in these important ways: They are chased in the spring (shed hunters) in the summer with archery, fall with muzz and rifle, and the extended is just too much. The animals do have the winter ground to sustain a larger population for those other seasons, but many of the deer coming into the extended in SL county come from areas where they are only hunted by bow, and I'm not even sure the same shed hunting pressure exists up there- but I have no real feel for it. I do know that the deer here are pursued with vigor all year round- non- stop. And extended would only add a lot of stress to the herd for no practical reason other than more chances for us to chase a herd that is already run ragged.


I think he was suggesting that it only be extended for archery and so no shed hunting, no muzzy hunting, no rifle hunting and no picture taking, only hunting with a bow and four arrows per quiver. (You can carry as many quivers as you would like.)


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

I think we would have more options if we limit the archers to long bows or recurves. Than we could really go unlimited archery/open state.
.
.
.
..
(Now pull your nickers out, I was just kidding).


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## BugleB (Sep 24, 2008)

Since predators are the biggest problem here is the shopping list:
For each cougar killed, give two extra deer tags good for any time, any place.
For each 10 coyotes killed, give one extra deer tag good for any time any place.
For each bear killed, give one extra deer tag good any time any place.
For each wolf killed, give 5 extra deer tages, good any time any place.

Since anti hunters are the next biggest problem:
For each animal hugger driven out of the state, give one extra deer tag.
For each animal terrorist caught and convicted, give 10 extra tags for any species.

Since habitat is the next biggest problem:
Start using some of the tag money to buy critical winter range and to restore winter range to better condition.

Since elk are crowding the deer out of much of their range:
Remove the cap on bull elk tag numbers, add a lot more cow tags, and drop the cost to $10.

Since I am contributing to the problem by being a Utah deer hunter, get me to move to Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado or some other state, along with as many other hunters as possible.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

What is funny is that in a thread that I suggested we propose ideas that give us more opportunities (no matter how far fetched), many people responded with ideas of "we should take away the yada yada yada and do away with the bla bla bla" The very first reply was something to do with eliminating the extended.

*GIVE ME STRENGTH!!!!!*

This is exactly what I said not to do. Whoever proposed 3 point or better or shutting down areas get's an F. These are not bad ideas, but they don't buck the trend. There is a chance that those who proposed 'take aways' were being as sarcastic as I was. If so, well done (jerks) but if not, you are victims of the trend, seek help. It proves my point. For some unknown reason we all feel like opportunities need to be taken away for the greater good, always. It must be part of our culture.

I'm just saying it wouldn't hurt for us to look for more opportunities and take it easy on canceling hunting in Utah for no good reason.



> Hey this thread was for our dream hunting system regardless of biology or politics right?


 Exactly...

I'm going to go buy some quivers.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

> Make the entire state 3 point on one side or LESS every other year. (Think about it! :!:


On a side note, this rocked my world. I think we have found the end all solution to any herd management and hunting opportunity problems we are facing. This sentence is a symphony of logic and brilliance as well as brilliant logic.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

sagebrush said:


> lets do away with the extended archery hunt, in archery they already get 30 days to hunt. if we are going to have an extended hunt for the archery then the muzzle loaders should get the same.


*F minus!*


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Oh come on, Sage is our local scholar on archery. His opinions on the subject are revered around the country.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Idiot, my friend, if you want opportunity, manage the resource!

Earmark 10% of the con tag money (which is supposed to go for habitat anyway, right?) for research. Offer the money in the form of grants to conduct focused habitat research.

Replace 5 year management plans with standing management committees and forbid those committees from even discussing hunting...somebody else can deal with that.

Get serious about hunter education. Offer advanced and/or specialized courses that include biological information about wildlife AND award a preference or bonus point to every hunter who completes a unit of training. (How can public input be worth anything in the management process when so many hunters are ignorant and misinformed?)

Promote archery as the hunting method that provides the maximum opportunity (generating $ for wildlife) with the minimum harvest. To do that, bowhunters need to take the responsibility to educate hunters like sagebrush, and we need to do that NOW.


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

Finn is a very smart man. Even though my real hero almost made me draw the line on Finn when Jake was laser eyeing you with anger for splitting up our bowhunting groups. I saw Finn go and make ammends and was glad that I can still like him. 

But.....
Back to Finn is a smart man, here is my recommendation from his valuable input. Two sub committees need to exist both committees being head by an employee of the DWR. The first committe would be a wildlife biology committee that could enact sub committees specific to speaceis. The other committee would be a publice relations / hunting opportunity committee and sub committees could be formed under this for what ever reason they should arise. These two sub committees exist for the purpose of gathering accurate, independent, valuable data for the purpose of submitting this data to the Board which would make decissions not based on 'recommendations', but needs and solutions to those needs with this simple mandate. Three dynamics need to be considered in every decission, Wildlife biology, Financial salubility (budgets for projects, income from varying sources to meet outgoing needs, with a sufficient surplus for emergency needs), and hunting / recreational opportunity with our resources. If this system existed, we could all be satisfied, and never live in fear of losing opportunity and maybe even have cause to expect improved opportunity.

His second brilliant idea: Hunting education. I think this is happening more and more amoungst ourselves. I know for a fact that I have learned more and more each year concerning our resource and their habitat. I have learned greater restraint, better philosophies, improved stratagies, and all sorts of things that really make me want to champion this very wholesome and very moral activity of fair chase. I do feel that if we all bought into the education process and understood the full dynamic of the hunting spectrum, we would all benifit from ours and others learning process. It would swell the hunting world with phenominal people and you can't knock down a large group of phenominal people.

Lastly, If the micro management idea goes thru, (it will not, DWR feels all hunting does is reduce buck numbers and does not put stress on a herd that does not need a large buck number in the buck to doe ratio) I want the Greg's Rock Henry Mountain tag to be available mainly to just me.


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## deercatcherguy (Aug 26, 2008)

Good topic! I guess that all I would really ask for is a Ski Lift to be installed to go right to my hunting areas. I also think that GPS should be put on big bucks so I know when they are close. 

I also would say whatever EPEK says. I say this because in the slight chance that I might disagree, I am sure that he could persuade me other wise.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

HornAddict said:


> Well whatever the DWR decides to do it better be better than it is now, the way the management is going is a crock of you know what. Whoever thinks that the game managed in utah is great than they must not hunt. Guess it's time to spend my money in another state.


I have already decided not to hunting Utah next year unless I draw a limited entry tag. and I will not wast any of my time or money on general season hunting in this state until things change. I can enjoy book cliff quality hunts every year in other states that know how to manage there wildlife and habitat


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

ramrod said:


> I have already decided not to hunting Utah next year unless I draw a limited entry tag. and I will not wast any of my time or money on general season hunting in this state until things change. *I can enjoy book cliff quality hunts every year in other states that know how to manage there wildlife and habitat*


Right. :roll:


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## mulepacker (Sep 11, 2007)

I hope all sportsman take this as a call to become involved.
"Dare greatly. It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt

I agree when one forgets about the score of an animal and detremines success by the number of animals seen and the overall quality of the experience then bordering states provide "bookcliff quality". Unfortunately the score of the animal has become the definitive of "quality" in Utah much to to the demise of the experience and opportunity to hunt.


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## scott_rn (Sep 11, 2007)

Idiot wants to reverse the trend, I say de-regulate hunting. All these hunting rules are just another form of big government.

I vote we go back to subsistance lifestyle. If you need food, kill something. No tags, no regions, no seasons, and no weapon restrictions. We'll find an equilibrium.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Mulepacker speaks great wisdom. 

I too will be hunting out of state most years - including this one.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Wow Idiot, when I first read this post I thought, geeze who ruffled Idiots feathers?

I just read in the Archery section what I assume got all you guys heated about lost opportunity. One side of me being a rifle/muzzy hunter wanted to say "ha ha, how does it feel to have your hunting opportunities attacked" as I feel SOME archers are often leading the attack on screwing rifle and muzzy hunters, but then I had to step back and look at the forest.

If we don't wake up as hunters there will come a time when we don't hunt at all in a given year. There will come a time when no one in our hunting party hunts in a given year. And not because we had to let it come to that for the good of the herd but because we complicated what used to be a simple sport and simple management with politics and greed.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I'll tell you guys what!! I saw it with my own eyes, Years ago the Bookcliffs, the Henrys and Oak city were all 4 point or better and were simply amazing places to hunt for many years. Then it went to three point or better, Quaity droped, but still it was OK.

Then they were opened up to general season, Totaly shot out in two years to the point all three units had to be closed for a number of years to recover. Now they are limited entery and doing quite well again. This year I've spent 9 days in the Books during the muzzy and 8 days on Oak city rifle, It's wonderful to see them doing well again.

Now , If we were to lift the limited entery and make them general season they would be completely destoryed in the blink of an eye. We can not allow this to happen..

I personaly will not hunt general season anything in Utah untill thing improve, I hope I live to see that day, Untill then, my personal hunts will be in other states If I dont draw here.

I have been very fortunate the last 20 years to be involed in many limited entery hunts, I also know it is very discouraging for the ones that apply every year and never seem to draw. I dont have all the answers, but would hate to see what we have now ruined.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> I'll tell you guys what!! I saw it with my own eyes, Years ago the Bookcliffs, the Henrys and Oak city were all 4 point or better and were simply amazing places to hunt for many years. Then it went to three point or better, Quaity droped, but still it was OK.
> 
> Then they were opened up to general season, Totaly shot out in two years to the point all three units had to be closed for a number of years to recover. Now they are limited entery and doing quite well again. This year I've spent 9 days in the Books during the muzzy and 8 days on Oak city rifle, It's wonderful to see them doing well again.
> 
> ...


 I like the way you think goofy elk.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Make the LE buck, bull, and OIL draw a true draw like the sportsman permit without the statewide option. The permit numbers per hunt would remain the same as now. With one application per species with up to 20 LE, CWMU and OIL hunt number choices, anyone can apply for and hunt each and every species they're lucky enough to draw every year. No points, no waiting periods, no once-in-a-lifetime, no eliminating your name because you draw a permit, no limiting your application to one hunt number. This is a species draw so if you draw a species permit, you'll be placed in the hunt according to your choices and according to your draw number beginning with the lowest being given first choice until any hunt fills its quota, then we move to second choice and so on until all LE, CWMU, and OIL hunts are filled. If all 20 of your hunt choices are filled before your draw number comes up, Tough! Better luck next year! On the other hand, you might draw 3 or 4 permits. Everybody has the same chances as everbody else. You may not get 8 chances at 1 species, but you'll get 1 chance at 8 species. 

General season deer hunt draws are similar, but with regions.

Also the rifle hunts last 3 weeks.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Mule deer elk proposal "Here me out I think this is a great one"
We have two many elk and not enough deer

These meetings/proposals always turn into a rifle vs. bow issue which is plain BS. We need to come together and do what is best for the health of our deer.

If you want to see what an awesome over the counter deer area looks like Look at the Wasatch front. If you want to see what a poor area for a general rifle tag looks like just purchase one and hunt pretty much anywhere in this state.

The difference is how many rifle tags each area has. I think we can meet somewhere in the middle on this one for the health of the deer/elk herds.

HERE ME OUT BECAUSE IT GETS GOOD FOR RIFLE GUYS!

I say 33% rifle 33% muzzy 33% archery tags “mandatory draw with first choice second choice and third choice options” this would go also for LE units. Mandatory game check in stations at gas stations all over the state cost 5 dollars per animal to check in. All animals go into a computer model of how many animals need to be take off each unit to meet objective.

If we have deer/elk areas that are at objective in this state “meaning two many elk or deer” we have a rifle management hunt after the initial hunts. Anyone can draw these tags no waiting period and no bonus points. Just luck of the draw. You will have to take a 2x4 or 3x4 deer and a 5x5 or 5x6 for elk.

Time for another mandatory count and survey to see what kind of quality and or quantity is out their. If the division still needs to do more culling than one more rifle hunt will be issued this time it is a spike/cow hunt for elk or a two point or smaller/doe hunt for deer. 

This should satisfy all the meat hunters in this state. It also protects the high end quality on a given area.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Ah screw it I don’t care what they do in Utah as long as it doesn’t effect the greatest over the counter area in the state the “WASATCH FRONT.” *(u)* 

I’ll keep killing big bucks with my bow until I am too fat to hike those hills. -_O- 
Then when I reach that point ill start complaining there are no deer in Utah, its too crowed, we need to hunt deer in the rut with a rifle like in the old days, we need to only hunt every 10 years with a rifle so I can take my buck standing by the road preparing to mount a doe. _/O 

Also make it illegal for southern whiners to hunt the WASATCH FRONT. -oOo- 

This is all just SPEACHES, just WORDS, if we want any CHANGES we just need to get down on our knees and beg forgiveness from SFW because they are the ones ruining this show. -#&#*!- 

Err I mean RUNNING this show.
O|*


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

> I personaly will not hunt general season anything in Utah untill thing improve, I hope I live to see that day, Untill then, my personal hunts will be in other states If I dont draw here.


I guess I'm diffrent in that I don't give a rats @^# about hunts that I can only draw once in my liftime, I'm more concerned about the hunts I get to do every year.

Second I love Utahs general season deer and elk hunt. I hunt Southern and Northern every other year for deer and I have enjoyed the Northern region more than Southern the past 5 years and have seen bigger bucks up North.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

swbuckmaster said:


> Mandatory game check in stations at gas stations all over the state cost 5 dollars per animal to check in. All animals go into a computer model of how many animals need to be take off each unit to meet objective.


They already have something similar in California. (At least they used to, and maybe still do.)All tags have to be validated by a government official. Any police officer, fire captain, park ranger, city councilman, mayor, DMV office manager, etc. And then that part of the tag must be turned in. My first deer down there was validated by a highway patrolman, my second and last, by a Leo Carrillo State Park ranger. In both cases I had to show them the proclamation because they'd never heard of such a thing. Hunting ain't big in California! In fact, when I got to the Leo Carrillo Park office, some kid was reporting me for poaching because he saw me loading the deer on the Pacific Coast Highway near the park. (Yes, there are small coastal mule deer in Malibu, And no, I didn't shoot the deer in the park, and no, I didn't use a gun, It's archery only in LA County.)

Maybe that's a good way to handle it here!


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