# RAC thoughts?



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

I didn't see a thread hashing this out, so might as well start one for fun. No one had any scathing opinions on the new LE season? Or the muzz magnification? Or are you all like me with just a blah attitude about this....


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

I heard 3 out of the 5 voted down the extra magnification on the muzzies.


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

But I do have a big case of the blaahhs and I am fairly involved. I am getting to the point of just enjoying what I have till the treehuggers and feds take it all away from us. Sad state of mind I know but I would hate to not enjoy what I currently have because I was so worried about what hasn't or could happen.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

alpinebowman said:


> But I do have a big case of the blaahhs and I am fairly involved. I am getting to the point of just enjoying what I have till the treehuggers and feds take it all away from us. Sad state of mind I know but I would hate to not enjoy what I currently have because I was so worried about what hasn't or could happen.


Bingo. Live in the now, enjoy it... there is plenty to be grateful for.

-DallanC


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Bingo. Live in the now, enjoy it... there is plenty to be grateful for.
> 
> -DallanC


 This sounds like something that could have been said around the table at Thanksgiving. Maybe it was?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I went to alot of RAC meetings during the 90's....

The problem is I'm a hunter, NOT a politician.....
So I quit going.......;-)


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

I do have somewhat of a vested interest in the additional LE season on the Wasatch. It seems like an interesting idea, one that should lower overall harvest rates so I like that


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The topics have been hashed out already when the packets came out. But I'll oblige. 

The more I have thought about the October LE rifle elk hunt, the less I like it. I like even less being proposed on the Manti and Wasatch. If these were additional tags, and the herds could obsorb them, then I'd be more okay with it than I am currently. But I don't like it. Additionally, spike hunters don't need big bull hunters screwing things up for them. 

I'm okay with magnification scopes on the muzzy hunts. I muzzy hunt deer sometimes, but not every year. I think it would be an acceptable change. I understand why some people don't want them. But I'm okay with it.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

alpinebowman said:


> But I do have a big case of the blaahhs and I am fairly involved. I am getting to the point of just enjoying what I have till the treehuggers and feds take it all away from us. Sad state of mind I know but I would hate to not enjoy what I currently have because I was so worried about what hasn't or could happen.


Let me just try to understand ... how are treehuggers in your way? Weren't "treehuggers" allies of hunters when it comes to fighting ski resort expansion? Aren't "treehuggers" allies of hunters when it comes to rich people and/or energy interests in bed with state government grabbing public land? I might be naive and pragmatic here, but what's on your mind?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

SLCHunter said:


> Let me just try to understand ... how are treehuggers in your way? Weren't "treehuggers" allies of hunters when it comes to fighting ski resort expansion? Aren't "treehuggers" allies of hunters when it comes to rich people and/or energy interests in bed with state government grabbing public land? I might be naive and pragmatic here, but what's on your mind?


Tree huggers and the feds should not be your biggest worries in Utah right now. Your own state and hunting organization's are doing much more to take hunting away than tree huggers and the feds.


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Tree huggers and the feds should not be your biggest worries in Utah right now. Your own state and hunting organization's are doing much more to take hunting away than tree huggers and the feds.


Vanilla,
I was just naming a few but as you mention there are plenty more parties that make put our love of hunting in a perilous situation. And SLC the treehuggers may be trying to save the land but most sure as heck don't want us hunting it. 
Not trying to start a big deal just stating as dallan did I really hate to ruin the time I get to enjoy in the now thinking about what may become of it. And from wolves to development and cultural change to name a few the odds are continually falling out of our favor.http://utahwildlife.net//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

You can hunt wilderness areas , so lets make more of it for our kids.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

As for " RAC Thoughts" ?

Why in the world is the RAC recommending more LE elk seasons on the Wasatch
and Manti when the DWR and their biologists are NOT???????????

Same thing happened with the Cow control permits on the Wasatch last year.
DWR was recommending these permits only be used on certain areas of the unit,
The Wild life board changed that at the last minute to include the entire unit...WHY?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> As for " RAC Thoughts" ?
> 
> Why in the world is the RAC recommending more LE elk seasons on the Wasatch
> and Manti when the DWR and their biologists are NOT???????????
> ...


Same reason why they chose Option 2 when the biologists were recommending something different. Same story, different issue Goof. Par for the course.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I agree TS....^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Players in positions with personal agendas changing the game for everyone!

Right back yo my first post on this thread, POLITICS........
And again, why I'm no longer involved.

I've decided I no longer have the time or energy to fight the destruction of
the Wasatch elk herd...........I'll just hunt else were....8)


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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

goofy elk said:


> As for " RAC Thoughts" ?
> 
> Why in the world is the RAC recommending more LE elk seasons on the Wasatch
> and Manti when the DWR and their biologists are NOT???????????
> ...


They, being the biologists and regional managers, are onboard, it was their recommendations to the RAC's. As far as why, simply put, less pressure on the Wasatch November hunt. The numbers say its a slaughter of bulls in November, something in the hi 80 percents, its higher than September.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

The DWR only chose 5 units for the Oct hunt to try it out on a trial basis to see how it goes. They are not against trying it on other units and feel it would work well on other units including the Wasatch and Manti. At the meeting I went to, one of the rac members asked the DWR rep before they voted if he thought the Wasatch and Manti could use or need this hunt. The answer was yes. One thing to remember is that it's being tried on a trial basis. If it doesn't work out as planned it will be canned like the management elk hunts were. If it's a success then plan on seeing more units added. 

I am very pleased to see the DWR finally trying to give us more options when it comes to how, when, and where we chose to use our points. Last year they added more muzzy pronghorn hunts and LE deer hunts(the sky didn't fall because those were added). This year they're recommending to add this LE elk hunt on 5 or 7 units and 6 more LE deer hunts(the sky won't fall this time around either). It's my opinion that this Oct. hunt will be considered a success and is here to stay. I just can't see any real negatives to the Oct hunt, other than a few less rifle tags during the peak of the rut. Is that really a negative?


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

GeTaGrip said:


> They, being the biologists and regional managers, are onboard, it was their recommendations to the RAC's. As far as why, simply put, less pressure on the Wasatch November hunt. The numbers say its a slaughter of bulls in November, something in the hi 80 percents, its higher than September.


I like it, it's gonna pull permits from a 80%+ success season and put them in an 60% or so I bet. Means less Bulls harvested and less pressure overall. If a guy wants to fight the general spike guys then sweet good for him!

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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

so when did they say we'll know what is going to pass?


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

The WB will decide tomorrow, 12/2.


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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

berrysblaster said:


> I like it, it's gonna pull permits from a 80%+ success season and put them in an 60% or so I bet. Means less Bulls harvested and less pressure overall. If a guy wants to fight the general spike guys then sweet good for him!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I agree, but i don't buy that it will help with with the log jam of points like they implied when it was presented at the RAC meetings.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

So let's say the October LE hunt works as proposed and success rates go from 80% to 60%. Fewer elk are harvested. But, DWR believes that a unit is still over objective. How do they typically handle that? With cow permits. For those that are complaining that we're killing off too many cows, this solution seems to be the anti-solution.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

This was posted on another thread, but adding a limited hunt without increasing permits will only slightly increase the probability of drawing a tag in each hunt. 

It will do nothing to combat point creep.

Increasing waiting periods and tags are the only way to get the higher number of people applying through the limited number of permits.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

goofy elk said:


> I went to alot of RAC meetings during the 90's....
> 
> The problem is I'm a hunter, NOT a politician.....
> So I quit going.......;-)


All wildlife seems to be political.

The Utah Wildlife Biologists are more or less wildlife consultants to the decision making bureaucrats.

Note: Bureaucrat - An official in a government department, in particular one perceived as being concerned with procedural correctness at the expense of people's needs.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

GeTaGrip said:


> They, being the biologists and regional managers, are onboard, it was their recommendations to the RAC's.


Actually, the Biologists did not recommend the Manti or Wasatch be included in the Oct hunt. That proposal came from the RACs. Right or wrong, I don't have much of an opinion on it other than I doubt the Oct hunt will see a lower success rate (possibly just kill younger bulls).

I stopped by the Central RAC meeting for 40 minutes or so and saw that the same old, same old continues. Mostly paid lobbyists, a couple regular Joe's, and UDWR personnel sitting in a meeting so packed full of info there is only time for the RAC to discuss a fraction of the presentation.

I took the time to write to each RAC Chair and copied the letter to each RAC member asking them to address an item. The UDWR currently excludes youth born during 7 months of the year from certain youth hunting opportunities. Not one RAC took the time to ask the UDWR to look into this and fix it. Should have hired a lobbyist to speak for it..... I guess my kids can live without the same opportunities as kids born during the other 5 months of the year. Or as the UDWR Rep told me-- "Life isn't fair".

The idea of just doing whatever they pass and not getting too worked up over it sounds better as time goes by.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

GeTaGrip said:


> I agree, but i don't buy that it will help with with the log jam of points like they implied when it was presented at the RAC meetings.


Oh it's gonna screw the point problem! The early is gonna be a 20 point draw

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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

The October hunt could and IMO will help point creep overall in the long run(yes the sept hunt will take more points to draw). If less bulls are taken during the rifle hunts more tags will be added to ALL weapon types in years to come to make up for the lost harvest. I think we can all agree that more tags means less point creep. 

I've heard many on this forum and other websites say this October hunt won't have significantly lower success rates than the Sept. hunt. Really??? Just look at ANY other western states harvest stats. There is a reason EVERY other state has very few if any September rifle hunts at all.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It will definitely reduce the success rate. How much can be debated. But they will be lower than the early hunt. 

This will not result in more elk to hunt in the future. There are two ways more tags will be given: 1- if herd numbers increase and more tags can be issued as a result. Putting a few more bulls out there each year won't increase herd numbers. Not even minimally. 2- If we are regularly harvesting over the age objective, numbers will increase. Taking tags out of the early hunt and putting them in October during another general season will definitely NOT increase the age of animals harvested. Saying this will lead to more tags down the road could not be further from the truth of what will happen, in my opinion. 

There is no way this helps with point creep any more than if they decreased the early tag numbers and made them archery or muzzy tags. The same number of people will still be applying for the same number of tags, therefore the same amount of people will remain in the draw. To effect point creep you either have to increase tags or decrease applicants. No other way to do it!

Comparing this to the added LE deer hunts isn't a great comparison as those LE deer hunts added tags. This isn't adding tags. It's just creating a new hunt, but will reduce tags for another hunt. It is going to create such a huge bottle neck at the top of point pools for units. This is not a smart move.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

BradN, If less bulls are killed more bull tags will be issued the next year to make up for the lost bull harvest.

Vanilla, The only comparison I made between the LE deer hunts and the Oct elk hunt is that it's another option for hunters to choose from. I said I like that the dwr is giving hunters more options on WHEN and where to hunt, that's it. I never said it would have the exact same effect on the point pool. But on a positive note you must be right and I'm wrong since Lonetree agrees with you.:mrgreen:


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Vanilla states it more thorough than I did-- reduced age of bulls killed will cause reduced permits for ALL weapon types. We can grow all kinds of elk, but if the bulls killed do not meet the age objective then there is no increase in permits. This might seem good if you want less bulls killed. (To me the Wasatch is an anomoly compared to the rest of the State and killing less might be good, but not necissarily on the other Oct hunt units) 

That is the problem with age objectives which are unattainable ( 7.5-8 ). No matter how many permits they cut, those top end units rarely see average ages which meet the objective on a one year basis, let alone a 3 year average-- and so they cut more tags. A 6.5-7 year old average seems to be the best balance of quality/hunting opportunity. This topic pertains to the current RACs as they passed the Elk Management Plan. Of course there was no time to really discuss the issues with all the info they had to cover that night.....


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

huntinfanatic said:


> The October hunt could and IMO will help point creep overall in the long run(yes the sept hunt will take more points to draw). If less bulls are taken during the rifle hunts more tags will be added to ALL weapon types in years to come to make up for the lost harvest. I think we can all agree that more tags means less point creep.
> 
> I've heard many on this forum and other websites say this October hunt won't have significantly lower success rates than the Sept. hunt. Really??? Just look at ANY other western states harvest stats. There is a reason EVERY other state has very few if any September rifle hunts at all.


It will not help point cheep unless more permits are added, which may be the case with lower success (if that happens)

Take 45 permits

Early 22 - 11 max point 11 bonus point

Late - 11 max point 12 bonus point

Take those 45 and divide them into 3 hunts

Early 7 max point 8 bonus point

Mid 7 max point 8 bonus point

Late 7 max point 8 bonus point

The current system would have 22 max point people out of the draw every year. The new system would have 21 max point people out of the draw. The point creep would continue until more permits are given out in this unit. Your probability of drawing without max points would go up slightly in the new system, but the max point would go down slightly.

Utah's 49/51 system is one of the better systems to still provide opportunity to those with less than max points, but nothing short of increasing the number of people getting drawn or decreasing the number of people putting into the draw will help with the point creep.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Muscle, I agree with your first sentence, lower success=more tags. But on your breakdown you picked a number and tag distribution ratio that works with you point of view and you did your math wrong 11+11+11+11=44 not 45. But I get your point and like the break down, it shows that a few guys will have to wait a little longer to kill a bull in sept. while a lot of guys will get to hunt in far fewer years if they choose October.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Got to have a healthy elk herd to raise bulls.....

Recruitment will become the major issue on the Wasatch unit.....

The last 3 years of cow killing is going to catch up at some point.

No cows--No calves= No bulls...Then what does the point creep even matter..:-?..


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

huntinfanatic said:


> Muscle, I agree with your first sentence, lower success=more tags. But on your breakdown you picked a number and tag distribution ratio that works with you point of view and you did your math wrong 11+11+11+11=44 not 45. But I get your point and like the break down, it shows that a few guys will have to wait a little longer to kill a bull in sept. while a lot of guys will get to hunt in far fewer years if they choose October.


HF I just edited it. Thanks

GE is right. To grow mature bulls you need cows.

I would also argue that you need more bulls.

I think giving out more LE tags (in the neighborhood of 600 tags) with a 6 point or better stipulation and eliminating the spike harvest would be a good way to go.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

huntinfanatic said:


> Vanilla, The only comparison I made between the LE deer hunts and the Oct elk hunt is that it's another option for hunters to choose from. I said I like that the dwr is giving hunters more options on WHEN and where to hunt, that's it. I never said it would have the exact same effect on the point pool. But on a positive note you must be right and I'm wrong since Lonetree agrees with you.:mrgreen:


Gotcha. I get what you're saying on that now, just tend to disagree on the impact it will have. Which is okay. We don't all have to see everything the same way.

As for bull tags, they just don't determine tag numbers that way. They don't do it on bull count numbers year to year. To increase tags, as has been stated, you have to exceed the age objective for the unit. I don't see anything that would lead me to believe this extra hunt is going to result in older bulls being killed. This new hunt, as Packout stated, could have a real possibility to DECREASE tags as the average age goes down.

I said on the previous thread I felt this was a bait and switch and there was an ulterior motive. Maybe this is the way to get big bull tags decreased in a round about way so certain crowds can get their way to reduce opportunity? I hate conspiracy theories, but I just feel there is more to this story than giving hunters a different option.

Good--trust me, I know how you feel about being beaten into submission and not wanting to be involved. It's what "they" want. So many times I've been right there with you. I guess I have be better and try to make good changes.


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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

berrysblaster said:


> Oh it's gonna screw the point problem! The early is gonna be a 20 point draw
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Curious why you think an October hunt would increase the bonus points for the September hunt?


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

GeTaGrip said:


> Curious why you think an October hunt would increase the bonus points for the September hunt?


The initial plan is to pull permits from the early and or late hunts to make this hunt. I'm assuming very few people will jump ship to this new hunt so we will have about the same number of applicants to vie for less tags for that season. This is for the Wasatch specifically, I can't speak for other units involved. If I were to guess, this new hunt will be a 8-12 point hunt.

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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

Packout said:


> Actually, the Biologists did not recommend the Manti or Wasatch be included in the Oct hunt. That proposal came from the RACs. Right or wrong, I don't have much of an opinion on it other than I doubt the Oct hunt will see a lower success rate (possibly just kill younger bulls).
> 
> I stopped by the Central RAC meeting for 40 minutes or so and saw that the same old, same old continues. Mostly paid lobbyists, a couple regular Joe's, and UDWR personnel sitting in a meeting so packed full of info there is only time for the RAC to discuss a fraction of the presentation.
> 
> ...


You are right they didnt recomend those 2 units, they have 5 smaller units they want to try it on first to see how it works.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Last RAC meeting I attended was when I brought up WHY did you you people remove the 3 point or Better regulations? Just wen it was working? I was ask about my educational back ground> Do you have a degree in biology or wildlife? No, all I do is spend a couple months a year scouting, scouting and more scouting. And YES the herds were booming.. So lets take the restrictions off. Get the Deer herds in prime areas hammered. and then??? 
next season close them down for 5 years or so do to a drought that was BS.They blew it. never to admit fault, But that was then, and this is now, More cow elk tags??? It's Crazy.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Packout and Vanilla make a valid point about average age of bulls possibly going down. I looked up the stats on all the units they are recommending to have this Oct. hunt on and they are all, with the exception of West Desert, over their age objective and have been for some time. They are all also units that are managed for opportunity not quality. They manage for either 4.5-5 or 5.5-6 year old bulls. I highly doubt having an October hunt will make these units dip below a 4.5 year old average. It would take every October hunter killing a 2 year old bull to get below these already low age objective. But if the average age does have a slight decrease it will actually result in getting these units to within their specified age objective. As far as why the West Desert Deep Creek is being included my only conclusion is that their goal is to try and spread guys out on this tiny unit due to the complaints they received from September rifle hunters about overcrowding.


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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

berrysblaster said:


> The initial plan is to pull permits from the early and or late hunts to make this hunt. I'm assuming very few people will jump ship to this new hunt so we will have about the same number of applicants to vie for less tags for that season. This is for the Wasatch specifically, I can't speak for other units involved. If I were to guess, this new hunt will be a 8-12 point hunt.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think more will jump at the opportunity to hunt with a rifle in their hands, especially at the tail end of the rut.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

GeTaGrip said:


> Curious why you think an October hunt would increase the bonus points for the September hunt?


Take the Wasatch, for example. Last year the early rifle tag took 15 points to be in the guaranteed point pool. The late hunt took 12 points to be in that guaranteed pool. The muzzy took 10 points to be in the guaranteed pool. I think berryblaster's estimate for the points to draw is correct, although a 4 point range is huge when talking about number of applicants. I think 8-10 points is a reasonable estimate. Of course this is just a guess, but I think the demand for this hunt will be somewhere around the muzzy hunt. (Of course, I have no idea on this, just doing my best to project.)

If tag numbers and applicants remain static, this year there will be the following amount of point holders for the early rifle hunt in each point total on the Wasatch:

15 points- 85
14 points- 123
13 points- 117
12 points- 146
11 points- 149
10 points- 159

There were 102 bonus tags for the early rifle hunt. It won't be until the 8th application (7.6 years to clear it out) year from today until all these people are cleared out of the pool. Those with 10 points today will have 17-18 points before they are guaranteed to draw this tag. Take 50 tags out of the early hunt and put them in October, and you remove 25 tags from the bonus point pool. You're now talking about it taking until the 11th application year before all these people are cycled through. That means those with 10 points that have stuck it out will now have 20 or 21 points before they draw. berryblaster is spot on with his prediction on it becoming a 20 point early hunt if this goes through. And that is assuming the Wasatch doesn't cut tags any time in the next 10 years. Anyone believe that will be the case?

What I could see happening, if this hunt does in fact draw at between 8-10 points, is that you will see people moving out of the late hunt pool to draw this tag earlier. I don't think you will see many, if any at all, 10+ point holders put in for the October hunt while leaving the early pool. So I could see it reducing the time to draw the late hunt, unless they take tags from the late hunt for this as well. Then you are talking the same problem.

Simple math, you can't take tags away and not make it take longer to cycle the same amount of people through the system. I've said it multiple times before, and I'll say it again: The only way to help with point creep is increase the amount of tags or decrease the amount of applicants. Neither is happening with this proposal, and therefore, point creep will continue to occur and it will just take longer and longer to draw certain tags.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Using your example, it takes a guy 15 years to draw an early rifle tag on the Wasatch and if the mid rifle hunt passes and it takes 10 years to draw I cannot see how that wont help point creep OVERALL. Yes, your probably correct that the early hunt will start to take a few more points to draw but on the flip side the hunters that choose the mid season are completely removed from the point pool 5-10 years earlier than if they had waited for the early. How does that not help point creep OVERALL?

Using your numbers it currently takes 15 points to guarantee the early, 12 for the late which results in a rough average of 13.5 years to get a wasatch rifle tag. If we add in the mid season with your prediction of 9 points to draw, add a year to the early for losing some tags so 16 points, and 12 for the late hunt it results in a rough average of 12.3 years to draw a Wasatch rifle tag. I just don't see how that doesn't help point creep OVERALL.


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## robiland (Jan 20, 2008)

My thought is to double the amount of archery tags and put that in the entire month of September, or even the 1st 3 weeks. Then 2 weeks for the muzzy tags, then 2 weeks for the rifle tags. Cut the number of rifle tags and put them in the archery pool. I know its a dead horse thats been beat to DEATH. I like how Wyoming does it. Thats perfect. And their elk heard is doing better and better. 

If your not sure what Wyoming does, for the most part, ALL month of Sept for archery. Thena few weeks mid October and even a few into Nov or Dec depending on the unit and the heard.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

huntinfanatic said:


> Using your numbers it currently takes 15 points to guarantee the early, 12 for the late which results in a rough average of 13.5 years to get a wasatch rifle tag. If we add in the mid season with your prediction of 9 points to draw, add a year to the early for losing some tags so 16 points, and 12 for the late hunt it results in a rough average of 12.3 years to draw a Wasatch rifle tag. I just don't see how that doesn't help point creep OVERALL.


This math requires the tags to be distributed evenly between the hunts. The tags are not distributed evenly throughout the hunts. So it doesn't work. I feel like a broken record, but I'll say it again...you either have to increase tags or decrease applicants. This does neither.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Vanilla, You are correct about the distribution that's why I used the term rough. Likewise on feeling like a broken record. While it's been fun there's no point in continuing this debate on what we think(guess) will happen since the October hunt was approved by the WB today, so time will tell us how it actually shakes out. Being the numbers nerd that I am I plan on doing the exact breakdown on the points needed to be guaranteed a permit on these units this year and will do the same for the next few years to see what affects these hunts actually have. 

On a positive note or NOT the WB eliminated all the "primitivish" muzzy hunts and replaced them with new long range single shot rifle hunts!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

You're absolutely right in that at this point, none of us know the true impacts. We are all just guessing right now as we've never had this before in Utah. We could be way off either high or low on how many points it will take. I was surprised how many higher point holders put in for the LE late muzzy deer hunts.

Did they pass the October hunt on just the original 5 proposed units? Or did they add Wasatch and Manti as well? 

Edit* I'd like to look over what was officially passed and what wasn't through the whole report. Is that available already? I looked on the DWR website and couldn't find any actions taken.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Pretty sure if I heard/understand what passed ,( correct me if I'm wrong ).

The board passed the proposal 'as presented' by the DWR....

There for passing magnified scopes on MLs,
AND passing October LE elk hunts on the 5 units the DWR recommended,
AND NOT passing on the Wasatch and Manti the RACs tried to sneak in...


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

robiland said:


> My thought is to double the amount of archery tags and put that in the entire month of September, or even the 1st 3 weeks. Then 2 weeks for the muzzy tags, then 2 weeks for the rifle tags. Cut the number of rifle tags and put them in the archery pool. I know its a dead horse thats been beat to DEATH. I like how Wyoming does it. Thats perfect. And their elk heard is doing better and better.
> 
> If your not sure what Wyoming does, for the most part, ALL month of Sept for archery. Thena few weeks mid October and even a few into Nov or Dec depending on the unit and the heard.


Wyoming also doesn't do muzzy. Wyoming doesn't manage for the trophy quality of Utah. Wyoming is an opportunity state and not a trophy state.
Comparing the two does not make sense, because they are managed differently.

Wyoming individual herds are growing, stabilized, or decreasing depending on the unit. There is not a boom in elk in Wyoming, because of the September archery regulation. The habitat, remoteness of some of the country, and winter feeding programs contribute to growing and sustaining an elk population. 
Wyoming (106,000) has one and a half times as many elk as Utah (68,000). Wyoming also has 1/5 of the population as Utah.

Wyoming also has an opportunity to hunt elk during the rut with a rifle in unit 97 and 98.

Archery is a lot easier to do during the rut when you do not have limited tags to offer.

I think Utah can do some things as far as opportunity goes. Move Fish Lake, Manti, and Wasatch to the Open Bull with the stipulation of 6 points or better. That way you can have archery during the month of September, rifle during the month of October, and muzzleloader during the month of November. Utah probably wouldn't do that, because of the money lost in draws from those three units.


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## robiland (Jan 20, 2008)

MuscleWhitefish, 

I guess its a good thing we disagree on alot of things. 

My best elk, from Wyoming.
My biggest deer, from Wyoming.
My biggest Lope, from Wyoming. 

They seem to be doing great on managing for trophy and quality. They have it right. Most all archery hunts for elk in Sept. Most (not all) rifle hunts in October. 
Who cares what the population is. Southern Utah is empty too. Western Utah is empty too. 

I have hunted Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, and Nevada. I like what Wy does and I think it works.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^So, Whitefish, How much time have you spent hunting in Wyoming?^^^^^

Almost nothing in that post is correct.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Wyoming also doesn't do muzzy. Wyoming doesn't manage for the trophy quality of Utah. Wyoming is an opportunity state and not a trophy state.


Au contraire...

Type 0 license are specialty weapon licenses - - i.e. muzzleloaders.

Do a quick Google search for top 100 records for antelope, deer, elk, moose, buffalo, sheep, and goats. Wyoming holds it's own, but I hope people realize that its an "opportunity state" and not a "trophy state" and decide not to hunt it!!;-)


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish is correct...comparing Utah to Wyoming is a bad comparison. Besides the fact that Wyoming has far fewer people, it also has far more backcountry than Utah does. And, even if trophy animals are killed in Wyoming each year, Wyoming elk hunting is mostly opportunity based. I could buy one elk tag in Wyoming and hunt archery in September and with my rifle in October...and at the end of my rifle season, I could kill a cow without buying a new tag. So, one tag allowed me to shoot my choice of any bull during the archery or rifle hunts (which lasted about one month a piece) or I could harvest a cow at the end of the rifle season. Do you honestly think that would fly in Utah? Good grief....the number of hunters in Utah compared to the number of elk is the whole difference between the states. You could NEVER set up a similar system in Utah because the elk would be annihilated...why do you think we have the spike hunts in the first place?

Also, I knew guys who would load up their horses and head up into the backcountry near Jackson...they would ride their horses nearly twenty miles before setting up camp. Do we have any backcountry that extensive?

Also, FWIW, rifle elk hunts in Wyoming were far less successful than Utah rifle elk hunts not because they were held in October, but because there were far fewer bulls to be killed. In Wyoming, the bull/cow ratios are much lower than they are in Utah. This makes a huge difference for hunter success rates...more so than the timing of the hunt ever could!

What drove me nuts with Wyoming and was exceptionally confusing and difficult were the 9 million different units that all had different regulations. When I lived in Wyoming and hunted elk there, I was always worried about misreading regulations...I could be hunting the North Slope of the Uintahs and one side of a dirt road had totally different regulations than the other side. At least in Utah, units are divided up by mountain ranges....not like that in Wyoming!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

WtoU,

You do realize Wyoming general season elk is a draw?

And that it now takes at least 1 point to draw......

Making it every other year to hunt general season for non-res's......

In Utah, Non-res's can buy over the counter general elk EVERY YEAR!

And you say "Wyoming elk hunting is mostly opportunity based."
I call BS.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> WtoU,
> 
> You do realize Wyoming general season elk is a draw?
> 
> ...


Just cause you can draw sooner doesn't make it opportunity(I'm agreeing with you here goof). Although on the spectrum of opportunity versus quantity I think it's more towards the middle than our fair state...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> WtoU,
> 
> You do realize Wyoming general season elk is a draw?
> 
> ...


I haven't hunted wyoming for a few years...so things may have changed. I was speaking from my years of living there. When I lived there, there was no draw. I don't know if there is or is not a draw now, but I would be willing to bet big money that it is much easier to draw a tag in Wyoming than in Utah. And, that tag is good for archery, rifle, and a late season cow.

Also, comparing the general season spike or any bull tags that non residents can buy to a LE tag is night and day different. Wyoming doesn't restrict most of their state's elk hunting to spike only for general season...this changes the entire game.

Again, for both residents and non-residents the opportunity at branch antlered bulls is much higher in Wyoming than in Utah for two reasons: 1) fewer hunters and more elk 2) they don't manage for high bull/cow ratios and high age classes of elks in their harvests 3) Wyoming has a lot more backcountry to protect all age classes of elk.

The reality is that Utah could not and should not ever try to manage elk like Wyoming...we have far too many hunters, far too few elk, and far too few places for elk to hide for such a system to work. Again, unless things have changed--I don't know--resident elk tags are over the counter and non resident tags don't take years of applying to get a tag...to me, that is definitely an opportunity based system. Does Wyoming even limit the resident elk tags?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Wow------WtoU^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

YES Wyoming caps res general elk, last year was 20,808 permits
YES they are draw permits, then they sell the left overs after the draw..

AND Wyoming does the exact opposite of Utah,
Many of Wyoming general elk units EX-CLUED from spike harvest.
Antler restrictions protecting spikes...:!:..

AND its NOT easier to draw a good elk permit in Wyoming than Utah.
In-fact, it may be tougher. 75/25 split to highest point holders.
If your not in the max point group, your odds are very slim.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Hunts managed by age objectives = Trophy hunts

Hunts managed by population objectives = Opportunity hunts

That is the difference. 

Robiland, 

In Wyoming one can take

6 Pronghorn (2 Bucks each year)

6 Deer (2 bucks, but only one MDB and a few units have unlimited whitetail does)

3 Elk (1 bull)

That's opportunity. There are more big elk taken each year off of the Wyoming General Season than the Utah Open Bull, because of that opportunity to take a bigger elk the tags are more popular. There is more of a demand for the Wyoming General tags than the Utah General tags. It is still an opportunity hunt, but the demand for the opportunity hunt is very high. It is not a trophy hunt, but because of the population trophies can be had. After watching the WBM on the changes in the Elk Management plan, I learned that Utah will decrease spike tags if the hunt success is greater than 20%. Which tells me that Utah is not interested in success as much as they are interested in selling tags under the notion of opportunity.

Goof, 

I live and work in Wyoming. I would argue that the general tag in Wyoming is a better draw than a lot of the limited units for NRs. Not just because of the point creep that you mentioned, but because there is an opportunity to harvest a big bull on the general tag. A guy in my department harvested a 330 bull this year on a general unit and bulls like that get harvested every year on general units. Big deer get taken on the General hunts every year. Some of the limited units are those with the best access or those with a smaller herd of animals. When you have over 100,000 elk in the state and areas where big bulls can hide, they are bound to be in there. If the demand for Utah's 15,000 spike and 15,000 any bull were as high as Wyoming's general season, there would be a draw for them too. The demand for Wyoming's opportunity outweighs the number of tags available. 

I hope that gives you an idea of where I am coming from.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The October LE elk hunts were only passed for 4 units.

From the DWR news release,
" four units where the overlap will occur are the Box Elder, Grouse Creek; Paunsaugunt; Plateau, Fish Lake/Thousand Lakes; and West Desert/Deep Creeks.

The general rifle spike elk hunt, and the new limited-entry rifle elk hunt, will be held Oct. 8–20."


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Wasn't one of the recommendations also to eliminate the LE entirely on Box Elder Grouse Creek?

I assume that didn't pass since they just added a LE hunt to it?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> The October LE elk hunts were only passed for 4 units.
> 
> From the DWR news release,
> " four units where the overlap will occur are the Box Elder, Grouse Creek; Paunsaugunt; Plateau, Fish Lake/Thousand Lakes; and West Desert/Deep Creeks.
> ...


I thought the general elk hunt was on Oct. 1st next year. 
If it's on the 8th, then the general deer would start on the 4th Saturday, which has never happened before.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

8th thru the 20th......General elk.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2015-11_rac_packet.pdf


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> 8th thru the 20th......General elk.
> 
> http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2015-11_rac_packet.pdf


If all else fails, check the packet. :mrgreen:
And I was all excited about the Oct. 1st opener.
Well, at least the general deer may be a little better and the late season muzzy for sure.


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## littlebighorn (Feb 14, 2009)

As an old guy who first started hunting deer in Utah with an open sighted 30-30 I have a hard time understanding how an inline muzzleloader with a high powered variable scope is a "primitive" weapon. For me that takes the hunt out of hunting. 
Also as a holder of 21 elk points, I am hoping that my ONE and ONLY opportunity to hunt a big bull in Utah will be meaningful and special. I don't know how the new hunt will impact that, but I guess I will find out. I am thinking it won't help.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

littlebighorn said:


> As an old guy who first started hunting deer in Utah with an open sighted 30-30 I have a hard time understanding how an inline muzzleloader with a high powered variable scope is a "primitive" weapon. For me that takes the hunt out of hunting.
> Also as a holder of 21 elk points, I am hoping that my ONE and ONLY opportunity to hunt a big bull in Utah will be meaningful and special. I don't know how the new hunt will impact that, but I guess I will find out. I am thinking it won't help.


You should be able to get almost all units with that many points! Be sure to keep us updated!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Hunts managed by age objectives = Trophy hunts
> 
> Hunts managed by population objectives = Opportunity hunts
> 
> That is the difference.


This chart shows how much of a difference there is:
http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/2014-elk-harvest-7-western-states/

It also shows, in my opinion, why Wyoming is an opportunity elk state....the average resident elk hunter in Wyoming hunted 19 DAYS!!! If that ain't opportunity, I don't know what is....

Also....it looks to me like you can buy OTC elk tags in wyoming as a resident:
http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/hunt-wyoming-otc-elk-tags/


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> You should be able to get almost all units with that many points! Be sure to keep us updated!


littlebighorn is what you could call a "point hoarder".:mrgreen:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

littlebighorn said:


> As an old guy who first started hunting deer in Utah with an open sighted 30-30 I have a hard time understanding how an inline muzzleloader with a high powered variable scope is a "primitive" weapon. For me that takes the hunt out of hunting.
> Also as a holder of 21 elk points, I am hoping that my ONE and ONLY opportunity to hunt a big bull in Utah will be meaningful and special. I don't know how the new hunt will impact that, but I guess I will find out. I am thinking it won't help.


At 21 points I assume you're holding out for a premium tag, or at minimum, an early rifle tag. If so, this new rule shouldn't impact your hunt positively or negatively at all. If you're hoping for a muzzy hunt, then why the heck haven't you hunted already?!

I agree on the "primitive" designation. There isn't anything close to primitive out there these days. Not sure where that word came into play, but I think it was a total misnomer. An inline muzzleloader without a scope at all isn't "primitive."


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