# It's all about stuff



## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I just had the pleasure of talking with some old timers. At 60, I was far and away the youngster in the group and I couldn't help but notice...

None of them hunt anymore, but these guys went on for hours about their history. In all the talk, never once did anyone mention the brand of bow they carried, their broadheads, their camo, their scent eliminators. None rode an ATV. None spent the night in an RV. Everything they said had to do with personal encounters with wildlife and the woodsmanship they used to connect.

So now I look at all the forums. Everybody wants to know which bow is best, which arrow is best, which broadhead is best, rests, nocks, sights, etc.

Rare to find any post about woodsmanship, about wildlife, about experiences, about animal behavior, about habitat, about the Witchcraft of Archery...

I suggest that the honorable and noble tradition of bowhunting is spiritual, but the "new breed" is absolutely materialistic. Even when they post a kill, respect for the animal takes a distant 2nd to the bow and broadhead that was used. And the animal itself is judged not by the difficulty of the stalk, the intelligence and beauty of the beast, but by its antlers.

Are bowhunters turning into a bunch of material girls?


----------



## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)




----------



## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Did you really just post a link to a music video? I have found that instead of buying the newest this or the newest that the best thing to do is to corner my wife and get a chance to get out. Nothing beats sitting out on the hillside as the light is either cresting the ridgetops or fading in the distance. Time hunting is part of my allowance. Then there is the material allowance which is substantially less than my chronological allowance.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I think the gear the old timers use gets lost in time and doest have any meaning. I think it's the same for me and most people I know. When anyone comes to my house the last thing I tell them when they ask me how I shot a deer is what brand bow, broadheads, tent, ect I used.


----------



## Archin (Oct 5, 2013)

We are materialistic because your generation raised us! ;-)


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Archin said:


> We are materialistic because your generation raised us! ;-)


Good one.

Finn, your view just seem to keep getting more extreme every day.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

All I know is when I smell pines and aspen I like it.My time in the mountains or on a stream belongs to me and those that I am with. If others don't like that it is their problem. Not mine. Regardless of what I am packing or what gear I have.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I should have had the volume down, that got me some funny looks from the wife. :mrgreen:

Good post Finn. The first one, not the video.


----------



## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

I think people are people and are shaped by their environment. Put me back in 1942 and I'd be a pro American German hating guy from the "best generation"!
Drop me here now and I'm quite the opposite, just all depends on when and where and what you are subjected to.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Times change Finn....:!:...

Nice to hold memorys and reminsce, BUT,

Adapt and move on OR get left in these kids dust.....:!:....


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Yep it's just bowhunters, not rifle hunters, muzzleloader hunters or fisherman for that matter.:roll:


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Oh Look--someone from an older generation is complaining about the younger generation. Boy that never happens, oh wait--it has happened since the beginning of time and yet here we are. Get off your high horse bud, live and let live, you will get less ulcers that way. I bet you shoot a stickbow--that sport seems to draw in the superiority crew--I should know, I am a recovering trad archer myself :grin:


----------



## c3hammer (Nov 1, 2009)

Wow, some interesting responses to a question.

To the actual question, I'll say there's nothing new under the sun. If you talk to many of the older guys from the archery business, it's much the same as the kids these days. Get them started on what gear they shot when and they will go off just like we do.

All you had to do was poke Jake, Pick, Ron or any of the original crop around Utah here and you could send them off for hours telling stories about the latest and greatest doodad of the day.

In the end, the gear and all the "stuff" really doesn't matter, but it takes a lot of years to realize it for most of us. As we get older it's definitely more about the people, critters and places.

Fin, I think if your bunch was still in the game, they'd be on about the gear and score some too.

Cheers,
Pete


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

the old guys would never consider using newer technology when it comes along would they? radio,TV, color tv, remote controls, video recorders, cars, compound bows, binoculars, bi-focals, medicine, air travel, washing machines, lawn mowers, Air conditioning and central plumbing.

Nope they still travel by horse and buggie and that is only because the wives refused to walk anymore.


----------



## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

I understand where Finn is coming from.I got him buy 9 years. I still shoot a Mathews.I also have 16 recurves that I toy with> Wood Arrorws,, Carbon Arrows. I just love to hunt Mule Deer. 1 tag in 3 years sucks. Old timmers I've talked to quit hunting. not because they can't just tired of the paper work and all the DWR crap to get an archery tag. .After 2 back operations a couple of knees. Yup have a trailer. Tented for 30 some years.But I still support archers..Do I think a lot of egos push some archers in the wrong directions. Yessir I do..To much put on the thrill of the kill. how far was your 1st shot your 2nd shot .and your kill shot the 3rd. 100 yards 150 yards or 25 yards..My 20 year old Grandson took a beautiful buck on the 4th day of the season. 2 hour stock to 25 yards.. Have told him over the years. .When you think you close get closer. When you think your going slow, go slower..When 11 people in Razors screw up a 2 hour stock opening morning, blow it off and walk away. although ur fumming.. I hope that all the stories old timmers put out there encourage the youngsters to do the right thing. Respect the game your trying to harvest..Be it with a new Hoyt.. a Mathewes..Bowtech. Even an old farts recurves. Do the right thing let the Egos go for a bit..Someday it maybe all gone and you will become an Old Timmer..


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm in that middle ground, working to become an old timer. And my view of it is, any hunter, all hunters, given the time before the hunt, will talk gadgets. Because that is what you CAN talk about. But several years later, as with most any story, the view of what the MOST important details overtakes some of the lesser details. And in the story sharing/topping world of old timers, you realize that the woodsmanship is what really matters, and that 220 fps isn't all that different than 230 fps, and gear is just gear. But woodsmanship is about the person - and that is the part that makes the story-topping real. 

Another way of looking at it - When I was a wee wee tot, my Dad bought the only brand new truck he ever bought. He could tell you all the specs, from the engine size, wheel base, gearing ratios, you name it. But 30 years later, when I was driving it around with my own kids, it was just "Grandpa's truck." Because really, that is what mattered.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Woodsmanship boys! It's ALL about woodsmanship! ;-)


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Woodsmanship boys! It's ALL about woodsmanship! ;-)


I'm a younger guy, and I am in the "outdoor industry" I build and sell high tech crap to people for a living. For a lot of people it is all about the gear.

With light weight and ultra light weight backpacking and hunting, which is my clientele, there are masses of people that focus on just the gear. With the belief that it is the gear that makes the difference. When in all reality, just like TEX said, it is all about woodsmanship.

In my industry, woodsmanship is, and has always been the knowledge to be able to accomplish more, with less. It is about a certain kind of efficiency. Part of the problem lies in the fact, that woodsmanship is hard to package, market, distribute, and put on shelf for sale. So we have products that are for all intents and purposes intended to some how enhance ones "woodsmanship" and make things better. Don't get me wrong, some do to an extent.

We can have all the newest and best gadgets, modern materials, etc. But we are not breaking any new ground because of it. I take all kinds of neat stuff on my excursions into the back country, and because of technology I can take more of it, because it is more compact, and weighs less. When my grandfather did the same trips 70 years ago, they just took less to be able to go further, to hunt and fish more. That required knowledge(woodsmanship) of not just how to survive, but to thrive. And this is really all much more broad than I am painting it.

I think because of this, technology has removed us to a large degree, from an intimate connection, to our wildlife, and to the wildlands they inhabit.

I would have to agree on the woodsmanship sentiment.


----------



## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm a recovering gear *****, actually in the last few years I've moved towards more traditional gear and methods because the newer and better stuff often isn't. 

I think the industry at least as far as clothing will come full circle and get away from much of the synthetic over marketed material out there today. 

Reasonable advances which make life easier and hunts more successful will always be welcomed, but really, look at the gear we use vs the gear they used to use, and in the long run which makes the hunting experience better and more successful?


----------



## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Good one.
> 
> Finn, your view just seem to keep getting more extreme every day.


Nah...if anything, I've mellowed over the years.



Airborne said:


> Oh Look--someone from an older generation is complaining about the younger generation.


Not complaining at all. Just had a thought run through my head. That's a rare event anymore, so figured I better write it down and this was as good a place as any to do that.

Only reason it matters, and the reason I think it should matter to bowhunters in particular, is because the true rewards of bowhunting are emotional and spiritual. It ain't about the stuff; it's about the experience, isn't it?


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Hunting is complicated. I'm thinking about just buying meat from the store.

top of da page

.


----------



## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

Finn, I started hunting with cedar arrows, glued on file sharpened soft metal broadheads, a Bear Cub long bow. Still own the bow and still enjoy shooting it, for nostalgia purposes.

I've been reading your posts for many years, this thread finally answered a lot of questions I've had about what makes you tick.

While I can't say I agreed with anything you've said over the years, it is gratifying to understand what's going on in your head and why you believe the things you do and say the things you say. 

It's a Bear bow and I bought it because it was a Bear and I still like good stuff. I'm most likely not the woodsman some are but I'd guess I can find still my way home, when I want to come in out of the wilds.

SWbm likes Clark's Hammocks, there kind of modern. My guess is SWbm can get along without plumbing, on occasion. He too might know a little woodsmanship, for a compound, carbon, goat packer.

Finn, you can still benefit the lessons of your youth and enjoy the experiences of the present. It's okay, it won't make you any less a stud horse. There's a lot of young guys around now days that could flat out wear the boots off some of the old timers, in there day. Tough guys as still tough guys, even if they hunt in KUIU and Under Armor. Jim Stockey has pretty high grade gear, it doesn't seem to keep him from getting it done in some pretty woodsy conditions. Could he do it without the modern gear? We'll never know but he's having a pretty good time, making pretty good memories for his old days that are rapidly approaching.

Peace Finn. Just because it's different doesn't mean it can't be just as rewarding. Not everybody is empty on the inside.


----------



## bow_dude (Aug 20, 2009)

Interesting how as we grow older, we think we are wise. Interesting how as we grow older, we believe our opinions are better than everyone else's because of our personal experiences. Interesting how narrow minded we become and how set in our ways we become, and how unwilling we are to even want to look at change. Just part of the aging process, I suppose. I have fallen into that group and I have to continue reminding myself that progression is what it is all about. Keeping an open mind is a must. Not all ideas will work to my benefit, but I do look at them and consider them. To shut them out because they are different than my own thoughts is foolishness. I watched my mother shut out the world and lose interest in life. She missed out on a lot that could have made her life easier. Her comment was, I am too old to change. Specifically she was talking about the constant changes in computer technology (as well as other things). The interesting thing was she taught computers and communications at the High School and College level. She just lost interest in life, change, and progression and simply quit. To me, it was a sad occurrence for someone who spent her life teaching others. I hope I have learned from her experience to not make the same mistake with my own life as my time draws to an end.


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

I'll agree with Finn, used to be the guy that had to
Have the new bow every year. When it's time to kill
Something the old Mathews LX is what goes in
The truck. 

I'm not what anyone would consider wealthy by any
Stretch of the imagination but I do believe in buying
The best gear that I can scrimp and scratch to afford
As well as being blessed with some awesome people that
Would be classified as working within the hunting / outdoor
Industry. If it takes me 24 months of saving and doing 
Without in other areas to buy a Beretta shotgun so be it. 

Now back to Finn's original post, I believe there is a growing
Divide between hunters and killers, woodsmen and marksmen. 

There is a difference and for this old timer it's been a two
Decade trend that's brought us to exactly where we are today.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

"There is a difference and for this old timer it's been a two
Decade trend that's brought us to exactly where we are today."--wileywapati

Fundamental, profound, and right on the mark.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Context: The last 20 years is what is known as the "Quality Era" in wildlife management. The Era is marked by some very distinct things from by gone days. We already covered technology to some degree, and while obviously a piece of the puzzle, it is of course bigger than that. 

This Era has taken us away from scientifically based wildlife management, in favor of a "Quality" standard. While not a real standard, it is really nothing other than arbitrary and capricious application of groups of peoples feeling and beliefs, in place of science.

This Era has also been marked by the greatest monetization and commercialization of wildlife that has ever been seen. This is in the form of conservation dollars raised by conservation orgs, and in the manner in which we hunt, and purchase permits, access to permits, or access to wildlife for that matter.

The "Quality" Era of hunting has also been marked by the greatest reduction of hunters, hunting opportunity, and wildlife that has been seen in 100 years. For anyone that thinks that all these things are seemingly unrelated, you are mistaken.

When it comes to what came first, some of this came hand in hand, rather than being preceded or followed by the other. 

To give the Devil one quick spin on the floor, maybe the focus on the technology in a broader sense, is the only positive thing, that can be focused on, when looking at the way things have gone over the last 20 years.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I believe there are more hunters than killer now days hunting deer than ever before.
I was raised that you didn't even think about the deer hunt until the week before. 
You killed the first legal buck you saw and every other buck that you saw. Then every man, woman and child back at camp would tag every last one of them. 
Many of my friends that I grew up with did big family drives. They would have two (usually the older men in the group) guys on high points, while the younger guys would drive the trees and push the deer to the shooters. Once again, shooting as many bucks as possible.
Is that hunting or just killing?
Now days more guys will scout all summer and fall finding several different bucks to hunt.
Then only try and harvest one or two of the best ones they had found. 
Now in my eyes, that is more about hunting than just killing.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> I believe there are more hunters than killer now days hunting deer than ever before.
> I was raised that you didn't even think about the deer hunt until the week before.
> You killed the first legal buck you saw and every other buck that you saw. Then every man, woman and child back at camp would tag every last one of them.
> Many of my friends that I grew up with did big family drives. They would have two (usually the older men in the group) guys on high points, while the younger guys would drive the trees and push the deer to the shooters. Once again, shooting as many bucks as possible.
> ...


I agree with your particular example, and respect the latter one, but those are not the norms, rather two situations that fall at opposite ends of the spectrum.

In the bigger picture of things, in the past we were better fulfilling our obligations as hunters to the conservation ethic, that has allowed either of those situations to take place. The evidence of this, is all the old timers with lots of story's to tell about deer hunting, across the entire spectrum of hunting ethics.

Just a question for anyone to think about: Do you think that the advancement of technology has been driven by an abundance of wildlife, or vice versa? With fewer opportunities, and less wildlife, why would a focus on efficiency and technology not surface?


----------



## Duckholla (Sep 24, 2007)

Sometimes I'm really surprised at the level of assumption that gets made about other hunters...by hunters based on their perceptions. Does it really matter how somebody else prepares, purchases, and decides to go after a deer? Because it's different than I do it, that makes them better/worse? 

I am half your age Finn, gear is very important to me as you have stated. Not because I believe it will ensure that I am successful, I know it doesn’t. It’s important to me for 2 reasons: 1. I am practical and want to ensure that my dollar gets me the best I can afford. 2. It adds to my experience as a hunter. Example – a very nice frame pack allows me to do two things: 1. Hunt wherever I want to without fear that I will be unable to remove an elk/deer from the woods. If I see/hear elk, I’m going where they are with no fear. 2. When I do harvest an elk, the pack out of that animal is far different using a nice pack, vs a cheap external frame pack. I don’t think anybody will challenge me on that. If they do, I would doubt they have carried a heavy, heavy load very far. That said, there is a million options today. So, if I am a responsible father to three children and a spouse who share my income, I’m going to do some research and make sure I can get the best for the buck. (Perhaps this is where the perception comes into play, lots of questions about “what’s the best?”.) That said – I feel like it’s very presumptuous of you to assume that the “new breed” is all about materials and not about the respect for the animal. From my position Finn, that moment after I have expired an animal is very personal, only shared between myself and the animal. Spiritual, in many ways with nothing but respect and admiration for the animal. You would never know that though, because again, it’s personal, but I think others may feel the same way. 

I don't know, perhaps I'm the only one here who feels like we're splitting hairs, and causing division amongst ourselves because we have different approaches. Seems like we have enough opposition today from all the anti's who criticize. At the end of the day, we're all hunters, even if we all choose to do it differently and we should stick together and embrace both the old and the new way of "woodsmanship."


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Having a couple of years on myself and having listened to stories from grandpa and dad I feel relatively certain in saying that "way back then" it was about quantity and not quality. Today I believe it's about quality more than quantity. I also believe there is a different mind set. Mind you, there are still folks, especially those knuckleheads on TV that I feel are very disrespectful to the hunt and the game. For me, a successful hunt is watching my grandson take a duck or two with a great shot, for my grandpa back in the day, a successful hunt probably was bringing home 50-100 mallards that he and another market hunter shot over live decoys. I don't believe gear, toys, ammo, arrows, guns etc diminish from the hunt. Don't forget back 100 years ago, they too used the best available products as well.


----------



## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

I had a dream last night that I got my way and everyone was like me (they should be cause I'm perfect)!
I like to archery hunt, spot and stalk. 
I stopped at the store and the broad heads I needed were sold out, I guess everyone else was buying the same ones, I mean of course cause the ones I use are the best!
I figured I'd get gas just in case, I had to wait 2 hours in line cause everyone else was doing the same thing!

I got to the hunting spot and it was totally packed! I figured oh well, nobody is going into that super thick nasty spot I found. Didn't you know everyone was there!! 
I realized it really sucked having everyone as smart and perfect as me cause then they all had my same awesome ideas!! So, I got my way again and made them kinda stupid and they didn't make the same choices I did. Then I had to deal with guys Grouse hunting while I was Elk hunting, guys were riding bikes on the same trail as me... Heck one idiot got mad cause I walked under his tree stand, I mean the nerve of that idiot who put a deer stand right on my route to my ground blind!!

I woke from the dream and realized, how much better it is that I'm not the smartest guy on earth but rather a big idiot that can learn from all you smart geniuses who already have it figured out!
I get to know that I'm nothing special, just a guy that found a great girl to marry, have a baby boy on the way, got a good job doing what I love to do, hunt as often as I can, and don't worry about anything that is outside of my little piece of dirt that has my house and shop on!! I'll just live my life and let you brainiacs judge how much better you think I should be doing it!! 
I'm just a simple carpenter and I don't care to buy a lot of hunting "stuff"! I spend all my money on tools!! I have a lot of the old guys talk about how they didn't need all those fancy tools back when they were younger, I just smile and say I know but I suck and I need all the help I can get (as I drive to a 15 million dollar home to work in)! 

Next time you think you are better than anyone just realize that you are only a legend in your own mind!
The more superior you feel to others, the more inferior you actually are!! Humility is a thing that very few actually achieve!!
I am not a very good hunter and I'm ok with that, if I was you other guys would have more competition, I can't draw or paint worth a crap either, that is ok also. I'm one of the best carpenters you are going to run into though! My hunting gear is pretty rag tag, so is my fishing gear, but my carpentry tools are pretty serious!! To each their own!!


----------

