# New survey



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Just got an email for a new survey on waterfowling in utah...

apparently someone thinks adults that served in the armed forces, need to be able to participate in shooting on the youth hunt. I’m all for thanking them in various ways, but allowing them to shoot on the youth hunt? Come on. Save it for the kids.

someone else thinks the youth need 2 days instead of 1. Really? They have the entire regular waterfowl season to hunt. The youth hunt is a _BONUS_ day. Not their own season.

looks like they are wanting to target outfitters on WMAs too.

extending the goose seasons would be nice.

not sure why we need more motorless areas. Lots of places boats can’t access as it is.

I’m afraid this is only the beginning.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Do you have the link?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

__





Online Survey Software: Closed Survey


This survey is currently closed. Please contact the author of this survey for further assistance.




www.research.net


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Filled mine out. Under "Comments" I said, "Ban ebikes".


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

This was the first season I hunted ducks and I know very little about waterfowl. They emailed me the survey and I took it. I voted to expand geese limits and seasons. I am a vet and I think it's freakin dumb that they would let veterans hunt with the youth. I'm not sure about outfitters on public--I figure maybe limit the days? Being a noob to waterfowl I have a narrow perspective but I gave mine anyway.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Is there a way to post up a poll on the forum? 

If so I'd like to see what the general consensus. On what everyone's thoughts are on guiding on the State WMA's? 

Are you for or against?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

JerryH said:


> Is there a way to post up a poll on the forum?
> 
> If so I'd like to see what the general consensus. On what everyone's thoughts are on guiding on the State WMA's?
> 
> Are you for or against?


Personally, I don’t care either way. What they do doesn’t have any impact on me. Aside from swans, I don’t see much guiding done on WMAs. The guiding I see takes place on private land and out on the GSL, mostly where you’ll need an airboat to get to. These outfits can be pretty predictable on where they will be and what times they will be there. If you show up early, you can have whatever spots you want before they get there. The times I’ve been set up where they wanted to be (fried feathers) they kept their distance and waited for us to get done. Rob even came over a few times on different occasions to see how we were doing and what our plans were. When we were done, he came over and helped us tear down our spread. I get he’s got paying clients waiting, but we didn’t feel rushed. Rob and his guys are good dudes. I’m sure there’s other outfits out there I’m not aware of, I just don’t have any experience with them. It seems lately guides have been in the crosshairs of law makers. Not sure why, other than a few guys feel like their hunt quality has been impacted by their guiding. Like I said, aside from swans, I’m not sure why anyone cares. And even with swans, i don’t see the issue. There’s much bigger issues headed down the waterfowl pipeline that we would all benefit from if they focused their attention towards, but for some reason they want to target guiding.

my experience with waterfowl guiding on state WMAs is very limited. I don’t need a guide and they don’t really hunt the places I go. I’ve only run into them swan hunting a few times, but they kept their distance and didn’t interfere with what we had going. Take it for what it’s worth, but I just don’t see the issue. I do see a much larger issue with big game outfitters, but for some reason they haven’t been a topic of conversation yet. Maybe the powers that be understand they help bring in the big money for the state. Waterfowl guides don’t.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

As far as guides on WMA's.....I "strongly disagreed". However, under the comments, I suggested that 25% of the guide fee be returned back to the WMA for maintenance etc. 

I'm in the ballpark with Moose on not caring either way if guides are allowed on the WMA's. I'm sure they have private property they lease for guiding. Otherwise I wouldn't think they'd be in business for very long. Personally, I wouldn't pay a guide to hunt public land.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think there have started to be more conflicts in the field between guided hunters and non-guided hunters, and it’s not just waterfowl. In fact, it’s not even just in hunting. That is what is bringing up the conversation. 

I don’t have a problem with guides working on public lands, per se. The guiding on a WMA isn’t the problem. It’s problem guides/clients that are the problem. When a client with their guide begin thinking they are entitled to something on public lands that a non-guided hunter is not, it becomes an issue. That somehow because a guide has been hired this is now their area or spot...that’s a big issue in my opinion.

I do not think all guides operate like this. In fact, I think most don’t. But it doesn’t take too many interactions on public land like this before changes start brewing.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> As far as guides on WMA's.....I "strongly disagreed". However, under the comments, I suggested that 25% of the guide fee be returned back to the WMA for maintenance etc.
> 
> I'm in the ballpark with Moose on not caring either way if guides are allowed on the WMA's. I'm sure they have private property they lease for guiding. Otherwise I wouldn't think they'd be in business for very long. Personally, I wouldn't pay a guide to hunt public land.


You’re not paying for the guide most of the time with waterfowl on public land. You’re paying for their equipment and abilities to access certain areas that is made possible by their personal investments. Airboats and decoys aren’t cheap.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> You’re not paying for the guide most of the time with waterfowl on public land. You’re paying for their equipment and abilities to access certain areas that is made possible by their personal investments. Airboats and decoys aren’t cheap.


Oh you nailed it stating equipment isn't cheap!! And YES, it is an investment. If were cheap, everyone would be doing it. I can see it now....Airboats lined up with a light on top of the shroud like taxi cabs saying there in service. "Waterfowl Fan-Cab Company".


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

taxidermist said:


> Oh you nailed it stating equipment isn't cheap!! And YES, it is an investment. If were cheap, everyone would be doing it. I can see it now....Airboats lined up with a light on top of the shroud like taxi cabs saying there in service. "Waterfowl Fan-Cab Company".


Its already happening.


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## landerman (Nov 8, 2009)

paddler said:


> Filled mine out. Under "Comments" I said, "Ban ebikes".


With respect to E-bikes, it’ll be interesting to see if you still want to ban them when you get in your 70’s 😂


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

landerman said:


> With respect to E-bikes, it’ll be interesting to see if you still want to ban them when you get in your 70’s 😂


He will still be against them. They only “correct way” to hunt birds is his way. Everyone else is wrong.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> They only correct way is his way. Everyone else is wrong.


Fixed it for ya, Moose!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

This coming season will be my last year before I turn 70. Still no ebike. Maybe they could ban them for anybody under 65. So a guy could sign up for Social Security and buy an ebike at the same time.


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## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

Waterfowl hunting is alot different down here in Southern Utah. Usually when the grandson and I go we're the only ones there. Sometimes it would be nice to have some more hunters to get the birds up.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

JerryH said:


> Its already happening.


NO WAY!!


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I took the survey...here are my two cents.

Keep guides out of WMAs...unless you want even fewer opportunities for Joe public to have the possibility of good hunts. It's already been brought up. Guides invest alot in equipment...as they should. They also have more time to invest which is even more important. So, they have the means to get where it takes more effort for the little guy to access, they have the equipment to be more consistently successful, and they have the time to scout to be more successful. What this will lead to is guides pushing out others from the best spots on WMAs. It's a foregone conclusion in my mind. If you allow guides on WMAs, average hunter success and satisfaction will drop. Mark my words!!

As to the youth hunt, I can give another day to the kids. Are 2 days over a 107 day season really that big of a deal? I think not. Maybe give them the second day at the end of the season for a different experience, but I could really care less when it would be given. 2 youth days are not ruining my almost 3.5 month hunt. Not even close.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

You can literally go walk down center dike in your jeans and Nikes and shoot a limit of ducks. You don’t need a guide to be successful nor will they impact anyone’s hunt. If you’re there first, you’re there first. Guides have been on WMAS for a long time. I didn’t ever hear anyone complain until recently (3 or so years)...

...about the time $FW jumped into the waterfowl mess. Coincidentally they are always looking to improve the quality of a hunt. Which is The card being played currently, it’s impacting the quality of a hunt. I’d love to know who brought this idea to the table. Had to have been someone they were willing to listen to. Your average dike hiker doesn’t have that kinda pull.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Moose has a point about $FW entering the arena. I've seen hunting in my 50 years of doing it, going to the "Money Men". It's turned into a political mess IMO. Not much different than running for government office. Listen to the "special interest groups" that help fund your interest and push the little guy that pays the real bills aside.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I disagree MM (not on shooting a limit of ducks on center dike). Guides can and do outcompete the general public on private land. Money and time help them get it done. I and many others have seen it first hand elsewhere, and I would personally rather not have to deal with it in the WMAs.

I asked the DWR in the survey how they were going to compensate public hunters if/when they allow guides on WMAs. Guides pay a fee to lease out land and that fee goes to the property owner. The general public, through the DWR as land manager, owns those WMAs, so what kind of compensation will the public receive if guiding is allowed? They need to figure that out before they allow guides into the picture, but again personally, I wish they would just keep Pandora's box closed.

I have nothing against guides. They are just trying to make a living and I get it. Most that I have interacted with are good folks too. I put my time in, but that time is limited by my work schedule. I'll work my butt off to get to the birds, but I would rather not put all that work in just to find some guide sitting in my spot time and again. For them, it is a job and it is their job to put people in the right place to get it done. For me, it's recreation and I only get to recreate a small part of the overall season due to job constraints. The recreational experience will diminish if they allow full on guiding at the WMAs. Look how busy they ALREADY ARE! Why introduce additional competition?

I would be OK though with letting guides hunt center dike though...OK, maybe not. That would just push more sky busters further out in the WMAs, and there's more than enough to already go around.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

You do understand they already currently allow guiding on WMAS right? This wouldn’t be a new thing. It’s already going on.

we the people own the land big game outfitters guide in most of the time, (BLM/FS/state). And how much of those fees that they pay do we the people see come back to us from sharing that with them? Zero. Infact, utah has taken it up a notch and stolen tags from the public to help them make more money from!


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

I’ve been hunting waterfowl in Utah since I moved here in 1977. I average 40 days a year in the marshes and have hunted every WMA from Farmington Bay north as well as BRBR. In those 43 years (≈ 1,700 hunts) of hunting on public lands, I have encountered exactly zero (0) guides in a WMA.

Based on doing multiple Google searches looking for advertising form waterfowl guides, I can count the number of search results on one hand. Anybody that thinks waterfowl guides are having a measurable impact on their waterfowl hunting in Utah is not in touch with reality. Waterfowl guides operating on WMA is a non-issue. Guiding on Utah WMA is already legal and has been for as long as I can remember. 

If you want to get excited about something that IS having an impact on your hunting in WMAs, think about the increased prevalence of mud motors & boats over the past 2 decades. When I started hunting here in 1977, there MIGHT be 5 or 6 boat trailers in the launch parking lots on any given weekend after the opener. I no longer hunt weekends, but I can tell you that on any given weekday that I am likely to see 1 to 2 dozen trailers at the launch at Ogden Bay. Everybody and their Grandmother owns a duck boat these days.

License sales have been increasing every year for the past decade and I can see that Utah is heading towards a draw system similar to what Kalifornia has used for years. Trust me on this, you do NOT want to see that happen here. Before we get to that point (and I don’t think we’re close to that point yet), I suggested limiting boat traffic on a daily basis. It could be done very simply by allowing boats in the WMA only when the last numeral on your boat number matches the last numeral of the date number. Odd = odd; even = even. Instantly cut the boat traffic in half on every hunting day, give or take a few.

And contrary to what some on here think, we do NOT need more motorless areas in any of our WMAs.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The discussions with guides on WMAs is not "should we make it legal." As pointed out here, it always has been. The question getting asked is if they should make illegal.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> The discussions with guides on WMAs is not "should we make it legal." As pointed out here, it always has been. The question getting asked is if they should make illegal.


I don't remember if that was the actual question or not on the survey. I told the survey I didn't care one way or the other for the same reasons I listed above. It will have ZERO impact on Utah waterfowl hunters.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Bob

Limit boat traffic but allow guides in their boats??


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I was unaware that guides were allowed, so thanks for pointing that out. I have thought about the implications of outlawing guides on Utah WMAs and what that might mean for guiding on Federal lands. Outlawing one might open Pandoras box on the other; however, WMAs are State controlled land whereas big game guiding is primarily on Federal land. Perhaps there is some legal separation there. Vanilla...your services are needed here.

My primary objection has already been stated and I will hold to it. There is enough competition...by continuing to allow guides, it doesn't lessen that. I do think i could get behind a proposal like Dubob's to limit boat traffic. Would take a little more planning, but could be doable. I'd prefer not to go there, but wouldn't throw much of a fit if it did.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

dubob said:


> *If you want to get excited about something that IS having an impact on your hunting in WMAs, think about the increased prevalence of mud motors & boats over the past 2 decades*. When I started hunting here in 1977, there MIGHT be 5 or 6 boat trailers in the launch parking lots on any given weekend after the opener. I no longer hunt weekends, but I can tell you that on any given weekday that I am likely to see 1 to 2 dozen trailers at the launch at Ogden Bay. Everybody and their Grandmother owns a duck boat these days.
> 
> I suggested limiting boat traffic on a daily basis. It could be done very simply by allowing boats in the WMA only when the last numeral on your boat number matches the last numeral of the date number. Odd = odd; even = even. Instantly cut the boat traffic in half on every hunting day, give or take a few.
> 
> And contrary to what some on here think, we do NOT need more motorless areas in any of our WMAs.


Assuming that implementing an Odd/Even rule would result in a 50% decrease in boat traffic assumes hunters wouldn't adapt. Not sure that's a valid assumption, hunters are pretty clever and determined. The real decrease would likely be substantially less. I wrote the motorless proposal in 2009 in response to the proliferation of the MMs. I think the possible benefit only increases yearly, in proportion to the increasing number of mud motors. With the shrinking GSL and increasing pressure, it makes sense to establish a motorless area in every WMA that has multiple boat ramps. Here is that proposal, it's quite reasonable:


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

JerryH said:


> Bob
> 
> Limit boat traffic but allow guides in their boats??


Yes. If my suggestion were implemented, then guides could hunt from their boat on those days whose last numeral matched the category of the last numeral of the days date - odd or even. They would be allowed to hunt WMAs on only half the open days of the open season just like every other hunter hunting WMAs from a boat. Boat hunters with a boat number ending in an odd number would still be able to hunt WMAs on foot on all even days. It's not a perfect system, and I never said it was. But, IMHO, it is far more desirable than a draw system where you have to be drawn for specific days on which you'd like to hunt. And again, my suggestion was to implement this at some time in the future when the overcrowding becomes a real concern to the DWR. We ain't there yet.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> I was unaware that guides were allowed, so thanks for pointing that out. I have thought about the implications of outlawing guides on Utah WMAs and what that might mean for guiding on Federal lands. Outlawing one might open Pandoras box on the other; however, WMAs are State controlled land whereas big game guiding is primarily on Federal land. Perhaps there is some legal separation there. Vanilla...your services are needed here.
> 
> My primary objection has already been stated and I will hold to it. There is enough competition...by continuing to allow guides, it doesn't lessen that. I do think i could get behind a proposal like Dubob's to limit boat traffic. Would take a little more planning, but could be doable. I'd prefer not to go there, but wouldn't throw much of a fit if it did.


Sir, I think you have missed the point of this discussion which is waterfowl guides. It is absolutely not allowed on ANY Federal refuge - period. I don't foresee the Feds ever changing that restriction on Federal refugees. And I'll say it again - you can probably count the number of waterfowl guides operating on a for profit basis in Utah on one hand. Which is to say, they cause absolutely no measurable impact on the sport of waterfowl hunting. If anybody can point me to any real, valid data that says otherwise, I am more than willing to change my mind on the subject. But for me, guides operating on Utah WMAs is still a non-issue. It's nothing but a feel good issue that has no real value or benefit to anybody.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Funny thing is. They have been on KSL Outdoors several times guiding swan hunts at Bear River. Then again they may not have charged the client for the day. But Adam was pimping their company. 

Is it fair for a company to profit off of State Sovereign lands and WMA's without paying some sort of fee?

Look at the brine shrimp industry. They don't get a free ride. They pay a hellacious fee. Plus give up some of their profits to the state. 

Bob with your proposal. 
So you can't hunt on a even or odd day of the week. Could a guy still go out and "say scout" for the next day?? Ya know a guy has to keep his clients happy. 

Its also funny Moose mentioned that he beat the guides to the best spot. But then the guide "checked up on him several times" ya know just to see what his plan was. No pressure there???


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

JerryH said:


> Funny thing is. They have been on KSL Outdoors several times guiding swan hunts at Bear River. Then again they may not have charged the client for the day. But Adam was pimping their company.
> 
> Is it fair for a company to profit off of State Sovereign lands and WMA's without paying some sort of fee?
> 
> ...


I talked to Greg Mullin about the BR guided swan hunt. As I recall Eakle was fined for that episode because he was filming his show. I was told the guides weren't fined, maybe they couldn't prove it was a guided hunt?


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

JerryH said:


> Funny thing is. They have been on KSL Outdoors several times guiding swan hunts at Bear River. If by saying Bear River, you actually meant Bear River Bird Refuge, then no, they have not. Fried Feathers & Adam Eakle KNOW it is illegal to 'guide' on Bear River Bird Refuge. Then again they may not have charged the client for the day. But Adam was pimping their company.
> 
> Is it fair for a company to profit off of State Sovereign lands and WMA's without paying some sort of fee? Here's a suggestion for you. Contact your state representative a/o state senator and convince them that the state is missing a golden opportunity here to draft legislation, gather co-sponsers, guide it through the legislature next year, and get the Governor to sign it so they can collect all those fees from 2 or 3 guide services that are occasionally guiding on state property. Or, work with the DWR through the pathetic RAC system to get it totally outlawed. Either way, it isn't going to impact anybody's duck hunts one way or the other.
> 
> ...


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Actually, Bob, it happened. Many years ago, but it happened. It was discovered, IIRC, because one of the party forgot a blind bag at the ramp. It was kind of a big deal at the time, and discussed quite a bit on forums. Greg Mullin was the LEO up there at the time and he and I discussed it in detail. The facts I stated above are from memory, but accurate. It is illegal to engage in a commercial enterprise on a Federal Refuge without permission, and, you'll never get permission.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I’ll never understand why hunters try so hard to restrict hunting. Cut tags. Restrict what days you hunt. Whatever else we’ll say next where people can’t hunt anymore.

Sometimes these forums look a lot more like PETA forums than hunting forums.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

My boat has an even number. I have friends with an odd number on their boats. We'll buddy up and hunt any day we want. Great plan!

What about unregistered canoes?? What will we do with those people?


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

JerryH said:


> Great plan!


I know; thanks. 👍


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

JerryH said:


> Its also funny Moose mentioned that he beat the guides to the best spot. But then the guide "checked up on him several times" ya know just to see what his plan was. No pressure there???


He didn’t check in on me multiple times in one day. That happened over many days. My boat was very recognizable, he knew who it was and felt comfortable coming over to see what was up. I didn’t care. I could have sat there all day long if I chose to. There was no pressure. I had the better of the spots out there. They just wanted to see where we were at before they went to another spot, set up their giant spread and got ready, right as we shot our last duck and left. Anyone whos hunted ducks long enough has always had someone in their favorite spot. Then set up somewhere else, just to have them leave right as you get set up in a less desirable area. It’s irritating. Had you just been patient and waited, OR CHECKED WITH THEM REAL FAST, it could have been worked out to where you are both happy.

the only pressure I’ve ever gotten to leave a spot was from a “non-guide” who takes out tons of people for “favors” and not money. He thinks he’s a big deal and everyone loves to blow hot air up his azz which doesn’t help his importance self evaluation at all. He’ll Come over and ask how long until we are done, call me 14 times in a half hour or just set up down wind within range of your decoys.

Don’t sit there and try to spin an experience you didn’t have to fit your agenda.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

JerryH said:


> My boat has an even number. I have friends with an odd number on their boats. We'll buddy up and hunt any day we want. Great plan!
> 
> What about unregistered canoes?? What will we do with those people?


Motorless guys can hunt anywhere, any time. Ebikers can only hunt weekends. Great plan!


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

paddler said:


> Motorless guys can hunt anywhere, any time. Ebikers can only hunt weekends. Great plan!


Yeah let’s just do our best to exclude everyone possible to improve YOUR hunt. That’s all that matters.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> Yeah let’s just do our best to exclude everyone possible to improve YOUR hunt. That’s all that matters.


That’s definitely the goal there. Always had been.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> Yeah let’s just do our best to exclude everyone possible to improve YOUR hunt. That’s all that matters.


That was a joke.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

paddler said:


> That was a joke.


Was it really though? If you could have to your way, that’s what it would look like.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> That’s definitely the goal there. Always had been.


He wants to lock everyone out of the marsh so he can shoot 4 ducks all season and then take pics of the rest. Makes perfect sense. 🙄


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> Was it really though?


Yep.


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## Adam Eakle (May 10, 2021)

paddler said:


> Actually, Bob, it happened. Many years ago, but it happened. It was discovered, IIRC, because one of the party forgot a blind bag at the ramp. It was kind of a big deal at the time, and discussed quite a bit on forums. Greg Mullin was the LEO up there at the time and he and I discussed it in detail. The facts I stated above are from memory, but accurate. It is illegal to engage in a commercial enterprise on a Federal Refuge without permission, and, you'll never get permission.


Actually Paddler, Your facts are not accurate, as much as it seems you'd like to think they are. KSL did have a discussion with the LEO. No fines were handed out. But, we did agree to let them know if we wanted to shoot a story again on the BRBR. 
You might also want to look up Price vs. Barr. Just so you are up to date on any further accusations. 
Adam Eakle


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks for the correction, Adam, and I apologize for any offense. I was told by Greg Mullin what I posted above, but perhaps I misunderstood him. It is, however, illegal to conduct a consumptive commercial enterprise on any National Wildlife Refuge without an SUP. To quote:

*Reminder: Only "non-consumptive" commercial uses (bicycle and kayak tours, guided photography, etc.) will be considered for a SUP. "Consumptive" commercial uses (such as guided hunting and fishing) are prohibited on the refug*






Permits for Commercial Operations - Blackwater - U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service







www.fws.gov





Given the above, it would seem logical that filming a hunt for a television show at the BR Refuge would be frowned upon. But I could be wrong. Have you obtained an SUP for filming any subsequent hunts up there?


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## Adam Eakle (May 10, 2021)

paddler said:


> Thanks for the correction, Adam, and I apologize for any offense. I was told by Greg Mullin what I posted above, but perhaps I misunderstood. It is, however, illegal to conduct a consumptive commercial enterprise on any National Wildlife Refuge without an SUP. To quote:
> 
> *Reminder: Only "non-consumptive" commercial uses (bicycle and kayak tours, guided photography, etc.) will be considered for a SUP. "Consumptive" commercial uses (such as guided hunting and fishing) are prohibited on the refug*
> 
> ...


We have not. This was 6-8 years ago and at the time, we were told if we planned on shooting a show, we would need to give them notice. 

With the recent District Court ruling in Price vs. Barr, the NPS, Forest Service, and I would imagine the FWS will be looking at their requirements regarding permits and fees regarding low-impact filming. 

In a January, 2021 ruling U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly opinion stated; “Mr. Price’s film making at these parks constitutes a form of expressive speech protected by the First Amendment, the creation of a film must also fall within the ambit of the First Amendment’s protection of freedom of expression. To find otherwise, would artificially disconnect an integral piece of the expressive process of film making.”
Kollar-Kotelly issued a declaration stating that the NPS requirements “that those engaged in ‘commercial filming’ must obtain permits and pay fees are unconstitutional under the First Amendment,” and she issued a permanent injunction enjoining the permit and fee requirements for commercial filming and “the prosecution and the imposition of criminal liability thereunder.”

So while you may think it's "logical" that filming a hunt or event at the BRBR would be frowned upon. According to this District Judge it is not (at least on NPS lands). So far, the NPS has adjusted their guidelines, and the USFS is working on new guidelines. Not sure what the FWS is doing in regards to the ruling? But I would imagine her ruling would encompass most, but maybe not all Federal lands? We'll see?


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Adam Eakle said:


> We have not. This was 6-8 years ago and at the time, we were told if we planned on shooting a show, we would need to give them notice.
> 
> With the recent District Court ruling in Price vs. Barr, the NPS, Forest Service, and I would imagine the FWS will be looking at their requirements regarding permits and fees regarding low-impact filming.
> 
> ...


Yep, we'll have to wait and see. It was "logical" under the current guidelines that commercially filming a hunt would be a violation, that became unclear with the recent court decision. NPS is, of course, different from the FWS in that hunting isn't generally allowed in National Parks. The current FWS guidelines differentiate between consumptive vs non-consumptive commercial activities, which further complicates the issue. And, the ruling deals only with filming, guiding is a completely separate issue.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Sorry paddler, but very little of what you say is logical or accurate.

Thanks for bringing FACTS back to the table, Adam!


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

Adam Eakle said:


> Actually Paddler, Your facts are not accurate, as much as it seems you'd like to think they are.
> Adam Eakle


Why am I not surprised?


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

paddler said:


> Filled mine out. Under "Comments" I said, "Ban ebikes".


use my e-bike and love it. Even though I am young and have the energy I don’t see much difference between a ebike and motorized boat. How would people like it if we only used Kajaks?

For a guy like me, working a lot of hours and having 4kids at home my ebike allows me to get to places in a short window of time and enjoy my passion.

An ebike is a available tool to use. Use it if you like, don’t if you don’t. I didn’t move here from Germany to see freedom restricted because some people have a preference. It hurts no one...

Final word:

it’s not the Tour de France, it’s duck hunting 😂


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

prumpf said:


> I don’t see much difference between a ebike and motorized boat. How would people like it if we only used Kajaks?


Puddler would fugging love it! That’s a wet dream for him! Kayaks and canoes only! He only hunts 2 days a years and shoots 4 ducks total, but let’s shut down opportunities for everyone to meet his specific desires!

on a side note, I finally figured out why he likes canoes. He can’t afford gas when ‘his’ candidates get voted in and gas prices go through the roof!


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

JerryH said:


> Is there a way to post up a poll on the forum?
> .......................................................


When you start a discussion go to the bottom of the Create a Post page and click on the red "Add a Poll". Follow the instructions and options from there.


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

MooseMeat said:


> Puddler would fugging love it! That’s a wet dream for him! Kayaks and canoes only! He only hunts 2 days a years and shoots 4 ducks total, but let’s shut down opportunities for everyone to meet his specific desires!
> 
> on a side note, I finally figured out why he likes canoes. He can’t afford gas when ‘his’ candidates get voted in and gas prices go through the roof!


To be fair to Paddler, we ran into each other at FB one hunt and he was nothing but nice and had good conversation.
It ok to have different opinions and to have back and forth’s about them.

now when it comes to $3,35/gal gas prices..... yea last years below $2 at the same time was nice!!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

My concerns about ebikes are similar to those I raised when mud motors proliferated. New technologies that allow far easier access to our marshes which will increase pressure. They will undoubtedly continue to increase in number and capability.

I find it curious that the signs say "Motorized Vehicles Prohibited Beyond This Point", but electric motors are allowed. That policy seems to ignore that vehicles powered with electric motors are now every bit as capable as those with internal combustion engines. Witness the Tesla Model S, for instance, which has a 0-60 MPH time in "Ludicrous" mode of 2.3 seconds. A motor is a motor in my view, IC or electric.

Enforcement is also an issue. It's unclear that only peddle-assist bikes will be allowed. Towards the end of last season I saw an ebike whipping down the Turpin dike, the rider not peddling at all. Some at the DWR share my concerns about ebikes and have expressed the desire to ban them as well, I'm not alone in my position.

I have looked seriously at buying an ebike myself, if you can't beat them, join them, right? But riding my peddle bike is in alignment with my signature line, I like earning my 4 ducks each year. As a practical matter, I do just fine either using just the bike or towing my Jet sled on my trailer. I can average almost 10MPH with the trailer, so 5 miles takes a bit over 30 minutes. I'd only save 15 minutes with an ebike, not worth the purchase price. Also, I look at it as exercise, and even time my rides. I'll be wearing my exercise watch this year more to track my "workouts". From what I've seen out in the marsh, quite a few guys could use a bit more exercise. It's not a bad thing.

However, towing my canoe means pulling ~250#, which slows me down to 6MPH. An ebike would be very helpful, as it's a lot of work. I've done a fair amount of research, an ebike may very well be in my future. I doubt they'll actually be banned. Now that I'm retired I'll have more time, I may hunt more than twice this coming season. I might even shoot a limit this year, if you total my birds for the season.


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

paddler said:


> My concerns about ebikes are similar to those I raised when mud motors proliferated. New technologies that allow far easier access to our marshes which will increase pressure. They will undoubtedly continue to increase in number and capability.
> 
> I find it curious that the signs say "Motorized Vehicles Prohibited Beyond This Point", but electric motors are allowed. That policy seems to ignore that vehicles powered with electric motors are now every bit as capable as those with internal combustion engines. Witness the Tesla Model S, for instance, which has a 0-60 MPH time in "Ludicrous" mode of 2.3 seconds. A motor is a motor in my view, IC or electric.
> 
> ...


reasonable thoughts there paddler. Now for me I don’t care if someone zips up and down with an ebike as long as they are respectful to those around.

respect has nothing to do with your means of transportation though. You can be a jerk on a bike, ebike, boat, canoe oreven walking.

For me my ebike has allowed me many hunts that I could otherwise not have had and this is simply time saved and further/better areas reached. When you only have a short window after work (lots of people are not close to retirement but working their tails off to make that happen comfortably in their future) and before the kids need to go to bed so that the wife feels like you are still helping.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

prumpf said:


> reasonable thoughts there paddler. Now for me I don’t care if someone zips up and down with an ebike as long as they are respectful to those around.
> 
> respect has nothing to do with your means of transportation though. You can be a jerk on a bike, ebike, boat, canoe oreven walking.
> 
> For me my ebike has allowed me many hunts that I could otherwise not have had and this is simply time saved and further/better areas reached. When you only have a short window after work (lots of people are not close to retirement but working their tails off to make that happen comfortably in their future) and before the kids need to go to bed so that the wife feels like you are still helping.


Yep, just my personal bias, and I understand other opinions. I've killed plenty of ducks, how I do things these days is just as important as the results. I get a lot of satisfaction from doing things the hard way. As Roosevelt called it, "The Strenuous Life". Or Aldo Leupold's, "The value of any trophy from the field depends not on its size, but on the magnitude of the effort expended in its pursuit." Or Saxton Pope's quote below. It's a philosophical discussion. 

Many hunters judge the quality of their hunts by their take, and that's fine. Some of my best memories are represented by photographs instead of dead birds in the freezer. 

On the issue of ebikes, I think our WMAs would be better places without them. But they're hear to stay for now, at least. Probably forever. But, they are limited to Class 1, which provide assistance only while the rider is peddling. Class 2 and 3 are prohibited, otherwise you might just allow motorcycles on our dikes. Here's the Rule:


17)"Electric assisted bicycle" means a bicycle with an electric motor that:

(a)has a power output of not more than 750 watts;

(b)has fully operable pedals on permanently affixed cranks;

(c)is fully operable as a bicycle without the use of the electric motor; and

(d)is one of the following:

(i)an electric assisted bicycle equipped with a motor or electronics that:

(A)provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling; and

(B)ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour;


(ii)an electric assisted bicycle equipped with a motor or electronics that:

(A)may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle; and

(B)is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour; 




New technologies present problems not fully anticipated at the time of their introduction. As these problems present themselves it's reasonable to address them through restrictions.


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