# As the Jazz return to play, some articles/thoughts for some of you



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

It has been pretty widely reported at this point that the Jazz and Pelicans will likely kneel for the return of the NBA season in unison. The kneeling has nothing to do with the anthem or flag, so instead of focusing on the kneeling, focus on the message and at least consider a different point of view. No one is asking you to kneel, and of course I support standing with hand over heart, it's what I do, but kneeling to bring attention to a message, is just as representative of freedom and America as anything. Instead of simply focusing on the kneeling in your discussions, focus on the WHY. I'm not even saying I love kneeling, but it's also not something there's anything wrong with if you feel that strongly about something.

The attached image is a quote from Donovan Mitchells media session today. You know the dude who embraced a community that most people laugh and poke fun at. The guy who has attended BYU, Utah State, Ute, and lots of local high school games. Done a summer camp for kids here. Given out shoes nearly every single game. Signed more autographs and pictures for absolutely nothing both inside and outside the arena. The guy who has integrated himself with this community since the day he got here? Maybe after all that some can hear him out as a person and try to understand where he and his teammates are all coming from. Do you tell Joe Ingles to stick to sports when hes helping with autism? Tell Donovan to stick to sports when he fed an entire school district for the remainder of the year here in the state after school was cancelled for covid? Or Rudy when he's doing charity work with his foundation in the community? Maybe simply relax a little, stop getting offended and try to understand a perspective that makes up about 2% of the population in this state.

Here are some good articles as well. If you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all.

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/jazz/2020/07/29/weekly-run-newsletter/

https://www.ksl.com/article/5000058...new-person-and-new-player-as-the-nba-restarts

https://kslsports.com/438749/jazz-understand-historical-importance-of-playing-in-nbas-first-game/

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/jazz/2020/07/28/with-restart-looming-utah/

We're all Americans with different perspectives and backgrounds, and doing listening at times isn't a bad thing especially when the perspective is one theres not a lot of in our community.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

So why don't they take a knee for a moment of silence before the anthem or anything else? 

That way they show that they are doing something why still respecting what the anthem is for.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> So why don't they take a knee for a moment of silence before the anthem or anything else?
> 
> That way they show that they are doing something why still respecting what the anthem is for.


I don't know exactly what they are going to do, but either way the freedom to do so is what the country is all about. Discuss the message instead of the kneeling, discuss the why. I get what you're saying, and I think it would be a more powerful way to do it if they knelt before and after or something, but if they choose during it doesn't really bother me. A lot of the people who have an issue with it are going to take an issue with it regardless of if it's before or during though. It gets more attention to do it during, none of the people complaining would have watched the anthem they claim to care what happens during it be played if there wasn't a report saying they kneel during it.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The Green Beret that suggested kneeling for the anthem in the first place when this all started would disagree with you that kneeling is disrespectful to the anthem or the flag. 

Some of the examples he sited when expressing dismay with the political reaction to this:

Are you disrespecting God when you kneel before Him? Are you disrespecting your woman when you get down on one knee to propose? His point was that kneeling in all cultures has always been viewed as a form of respect. But in today’s political quagmire kneeling has all the sudden become a sign of disrespect? Weird, if you really think about it. But nothing about politics makes sense anymore.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> It gets more attention to do it during, none of the people complaining would have watched the anthem they claim to care what happens during it be played if there wasn't a report saying they kneel during it.


I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the room of everyone that complains about kneeling the next time the anthem comes on before a game they are watching on TV. Do they stay on the couch? Do they continue filling up their plate with appetizers? Are they talking with their buddy about the upcoming game?

I know in my house, if we are watching the anthem before a game (not often), we are standing with hand over heart in front of the TV. I don't even have to tell the kids anymore, they do it on their own. I seriously doubt many of the most vocal critics of kneeling do the same. Just a guess, since I've seen it with my own eyes.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> The Green Beret that suggested kneeling for the anthem in the first place when this all started would disagree with you that kneeling is disrespectful to the anthem or the flag.
> 
> Some of the examples he sited when expressing dismay with the political reaction to this:
> 
> Are you disrespecting God when you kneel before Him? Are you disrespecting your woman when you get down on one knee to propose? His point was that kneeling in all cultures has always been viewed as a form of respect. But in today's political quagmire kneeling has all the sudden become a sign of disrespect? Weird, if you really think about it. But nothing about politics makes sense anymore.


This. Stop allowing horrible politicians with political motives to tell you how to feel about things, once we try to understand each other we aren't so different.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> I'd love to be a fly on the wall of the room of everyone that complains about kneeling the next time the anthem comes on before a game they are watching on TV. Do they stay on the couch? Do they continue filling up their plate with appetizers? Are they talking with their buddy about the upcoming game?
> 
> I know in my house, if we are watching the anthem before a game (not often), we are standing with hand over heart in front of the TV. I don't even have to tell the kids anymore, they do it on their own. I seriously doubt many of the most vocal critics of kneeling do the same. Just a guess, since I've seen it with my own eyes.


How many of them are in the bathroom at actually games when it gets played or in a food line? People can't see past their own narrow mindsets. There is absolutely nothing disrespectful about kneeling.

CK literally went from sitting to kneeling when the veteran who he met with said it would be more respectful. How about the rest of you come the same amount and try to be more understanding? Politicians are good at one they do....they literally convince people so strongly they should be divided on the most ridiculous things.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Here is the deal 1-eye. Just like I’m think we should create room for those that want to kneel, even if we don’t agree with them, we should also create room for those that think kneeling is disrespectful. 

There is a reason I personally won’t do it. But I’m willing to let everyone decide what they will do. I just wish we’d all be better to each other. You mentioned the division. We’re just ugly to each other. I wish we’d stop that.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Here is the deal 1-eye. Just like I'm think we should create room for those that want to kneel, even if we don't agree with them, we should also create room for those that think kneeling is disrespectful.
> 
> There is a reason I personally won't do it. But I'm willing to let everyone decide what they will do. I just wish we'd all be better to each other. You mentioned the division. We're just ugly to each other. I wish we'd stop that.


I can agree with this so long as they keep it to them personally. I wouldn't kneel, but acting as though others doing it are doing something wrong personally is the ridiculous part. The "I don't support you now" crowd is the ones who need a bit of a more open mind on the conversation and do a bit more in trying to understand.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I can agree with this so long as they keep it to them personally.


So you agree with the 1st Amendment, so long as the expression aligns with what you think is best? Otherwise they should keep it to themselves? C'mon man!

I don't care if people disagree, and even if they say so. It's the vitriol and immediate accusations that I don't get. I think it's unnecessary and I'm worn out by it. And that goes for the vitriol on both sides! Those saying they don't support players doing this aren't the only ones that might need to take a step back and listen.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> So you agree with the 1st Amendment, so long as the expression aligns with what you think is best? Otherwise they should keep it to themselves? C'mon man!
> 
> I don't care if people disagree, and even if they say so. It's the vitriol and immediate accusations that I don't get. I think it's unnecessary and I'm worn out by it. And that goes for the vitriol on both sides! Those saying they don't support players doing this aren't the only ones that might need to take a step back and listen.


I didn't word that well. My point there is simply, hold yourself to the standard you believe in, don't hold other to the standard you believe in because everyone's experience is different. Every individual should do what they feel is right, and also respect others for doing what they feel is right. I'm saying expecting others to feel the exact same way/see things the same way is just dumb. Let others live/do as they please with their freedom, throwing vitriol at them for something you disagree with is more against what the flag and anthem stand for that anything like kneeling.

Also, don't support the kneeling? Wait 10 minutes and turn on the game after it's over and don't kneel yourself. Respect others and their experience.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I didn't word that well. My point there is simply, hold yourself to the standard you believe in, don't hold other to the standard you believe in because everyone's experience is different. Every individual should do what they feel is right, and also respect others for doing what they feel is right. I'm saying expecting others to feel the exact same way/see things the same way is just dumb.


Couldn't agree more! It's an ironic comment here, though.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Let others live/do as they please with their freedom, throwing vitriol at them for something you disagree with is more against ...


This. ^^

This is exactly what I don't understand in our current state. Society more and more wants choices. And society wants these choices to be acceptable by the majority, instead of only the minority. Choices like abortion. Choices like which gender you wish to identify as on any day of the week. Choices like which bathroom you wish to use based off which gender you choose to be at that particular time. Choices, choices, choices....

....right up until a mask comes into play. Then there is no choice. Now you are forced to wear a mask, no matter what your personal opinion or decision is. Vitriol is thrown at you as soon as you disagree with a mask...

It's a two-way street. Whether the subject is racial equality, recreational drug use, pro-choice vs. life, LGBTQ, or any other number of issues. It should be respected on both sides of the issue. But it isn't. If you have issues with a person that has a penis between their legs going into the women's restroom - then you are labeled as a bad person.

Our society is really screwed up.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I started to think we were too free. What a pathetic feeling, right?

I realized it was the politicization of freedom (I should say manipulation) that has made it bad. That's where those "choices" that PBH spoke about above came into play. 

That's why people are afraid of a drug FDA approved for decades, but are open to a brand new vaccine with no long term results created by a software mogul. 



See. I hate this crap. Lets play some darn basketball folks!!!


----------



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

*LII U.S. Code Title 36. PATRIOTIC AND NATIONAL OBSERVANCES, CEREMONIES, AND ORGANIZATIONS Subtitle I. Patriotic and National Observances and Ceremonies Part A. Observances and Ceremonies Chapter 3. NATIONAL ANTHEM, MOTTO, FLORAL EMBLEM, MARCH, AND TREE Section 301. National anthem
36 U.S. Code § 301.National anthem
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
(a)Designation.-
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b)Conduct During Playing.-During a rendition of the national anthem-
(1)when the flag is displayed-
(A)individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
(B)members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C)all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(2)when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
(Pub. L. 105-225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1263; Pub. L. 110-417, [div. A], title V, § 595, Oct. 14, 2008, 122 Stat. 4475.)*

That being said I agree with the sentiments that have said everyone has a right to their opinion, and when I took an oath to serve and protect the Constitution of the United States that included the 1st amendment and everyone's right to their opinion and ability to express it. That includes those who kneel and those who feel that to "take a knee" is disrespectful.

I personally don't think that professional sports is the place but others do and that is okay with me.

Professional sports is not that important to me so I have chose not to participate in watching until they remove politics and resume just playing the game.

The more I thought about it and all the hysteria involved I thought it was a waste of my time and it didn't mean too much to me. I don't miss it and spend the time doing things that are more important to me.

I have met and had my picture taken with many professional NFL players and have foot balls signed by Jim Kelly, Jon Gruden and Michael Vick they don't mean much to me either.

The sports that mean the most to me now involve a gun or a bow and not a ball.

And to add a little levity to express my feelings.


----------



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Interesting,


----------



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Since I have already killed this thread.... I know it's a little dated but was just sent to me,


----------

