# Huge fall-off in turkey hunter numbers..



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I posted this on the 'Turkey CC hits' as well,
but , felt like it deserves a topic of its own.

In 2009, the year before Utah went general season turkey, there were just over 
19,000 applicants for 13,608 LE turkey permits.,( excluding con & land owner tags)
These LE permits were spread out over 2 and 3 different season on each unit . 
( A/B/C Tags ) evenly distributing hunters......

This year there are 2,500 LE permits , with a much HIGHER demand!

LAST YEAR ,2011, There were 2,916 LE (includes CWMU's) available, 
There were 8,321 APPLICATES for these permits!!

Now take the 2,500 LE tags , and that to a projected 5,000 general tags in 2013.
Looks like between 7,500 and 8K turkey hunters in 2013.........

A NET LOSS OF 6,100+ (Annually)turkey hunters in Utah since the start general season turkey hunting! Huge yearly loss in participation!
Please, I hope some one out there will go into the upland game annual reports
and verify my numbers, I don't think I'm missing anything.?.?.?

These numbers even shocked me :shock: :!:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

What we've simply got is a fall off in the Utard factor. For years everyone thought that turkey hunting was an easy slam dunk hunt on a stupid bird. Now that more hunters have been in the field the birds are getting a lot smarter and harder to kill. That will discourage a lot of people from hunting when they find out that they actually have to HUNT to kill one. Northern Idaho had the same thing happen to them 30 years ago. It started out as a draw only. Then very soon the turkey numbers exploded. They dropped the LE program and went over the counter and EVERYONE and their dog bought tags and went hunting. My buddy up there said it was just ridiculous how many idiots were in the woods those first few years. Now, you hardly ever see anyone hunting and the pressure is light no matter where you go. I've been hunting up there for ten years now and the ONLY time I've ever had a run-in with another hunter crowding me out was with another guy from Utah... :? Whod'a thunk... The same thing would happen here if they'd just do away with that retarded LE system and let everyone who wants to hunt them just hunt. We've got plenty of birds to support this so why do LE any more. Give the youth a weekend early, and then open the season to everyone and leave it open for a month or two. Ya sure you'll get the opening day rush just like anywhere else, but after that most times you want to go hunt turkeys you'll have the woods to yourself. LE turkey hunting is GAY! :evil:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> We've got plenty of birds to support this so why do LE any more?


Here' I'll answer my own question. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Interesting


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Tex is absolutely correct, 100% spot on. 

Now, Goofy Elk, tell us, and tell us the truth...WHY DO YOU INSIST ON LIMITING HUNTING OPPORTUNITY with the stupid LE system that is now in place. Don't come on here with this "oh, I think it is what the public wants BS", you and the other hunt for profit guys got something on your mind...tell us. How do you stand to gain??


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I and many I know have quit putting in for LE and just buy an OTC tag. 

Maybe that's similar to what others are doing?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

What's happening is this,
A majority of Utah's turkey hunters are NOT buying the OTC tag,They are
putting in for the LE stuff, If they don't draw, they wait.........

NOT ABOUT THE $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Look at the numbers, They are selling LESS total permits with over the counter/general!!
Unlimited tags and the DWR cant even sell them.......

IT IS ABOUT the quality of the hunt........PERIOD.

I'm simply pointing out the hard numbers to you 2,,,(BP/TEX).........
Looks like it's the general tags that are the "gay" ones  o-||


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Ok- If Goofy's numbers are correct then I see it like this--

--The UDWR has lost $200,000+ by going to general season hunts.

--The complaints about crowding have no legs to stand on. If we really lost 40% of turkey hunters then there is less crowding today than there was under the LTD hunts. The first of the LTD hunts usually had less permits than the later hunts.

So, if those numbers are correct then the UDWR didn't go to general season for the money and there is not likely much of a crowding issue.

Should they go all LE to regain that $200,000+ and increase turkey hunters by 40%?

I also wouldn't discount the poor economy from 2010-2012 as a reason for declining permit sales.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

This is my take and im no turkey expert.

Turkeys love privite property in utah where i see them. They will leave privite property if access is limited but for the most part i see 10 times or more turkeys where I cant hunt. The general areas are slammed with hunters. I feel its like the general deer rifle hunt. I feel it sucks and wont buy a general tag until i personally see the turkey numbers on public land go up.

If i had access to privite property id hunt the general tag. Since i dont i dont want to hunt with hoards of people so le is hunt is my choice. However turkey hunting is not as high on my priority and with 4 points i still forgot to put in this year. Again im no turkey expert and not sure if im saying what its like for me so it makes sense to the rest.

Another analogy 
The utah turkey hunt for me would be a lot like the utah pheasant hunt, if they made it over the counter and got rid of the le part you could get one but the turkey hunting on public land would be exactly like hunting pheasants on public land. Poor


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Packout said:


> Ok- If Goofy's numbers are correct then I see it like this--
> 
> --The UDWR has lost $200,000+ by going to general season hunts.
> 
> ...


packout, I agree with most of what your saying but before 2010, the hunters were split 
33% for each of the three hunts or close to it I think. Now it's like 30% for the LE and 70% for the Gen. season. I'm guessing there are as many people hunting the gen. season now as there was during any of the three LE hunts in 2009. I hunted the (Nebo "a") unit in 2009 and found it very crowded and ate tag soup. I drew the Central early tag in 2011 and found it very crowded on opening day, even during a blizzard that dumped a foot of snow in about 3 hours and yet again tag soup. Although I did have my chances but I suck at turkey hunting. I drew the Central early tag again this year. Maybe you can point me in the right direction to an area less crowded. :mrgreen:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> So, if those numbers are correct then the UDWR didn't go to general season for the money and there is not likely much of a crowding issue.


That's my point! They're keeping it LE FOR the money. That's the reason this whole state is run on an LE system. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Family hunting opportunity and sound game management has nothing to do with it... That's been the trend since SFW set up shop 25 years ago. SFW is THE reason this state has LE turkey hunting. They were the ONLY ones lobbying for it when the powers that be were deciding what to do. The DWR, the WB and the NWTF ALL wanted state wide over the counter sales. SFW talked them out of it. LE hunting = $$$$$$$$$$$$$ it's as simple as that.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

If im not mistaken there is a difference in the general turkey hunt and the le turkey hunt. "Rut"

If general turkey went the same time as the rut i might try it again. 
Im just a measly crappy turkey hunter and need all the help i can get to have a shot at them.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Ridge- If we use your numbers and Goofy's numbers (because I have no desire to fact check them)-- there were 13,600 LE permits before we went OTC. So input your numbers of 33% over 3 hunts: 1st hunt would have given 4,500 with 9,000 spread over the next 2 LE hunts. So now we have 2,900 LE (equivalent to old 1st hunt)-- a decrease of 1,600 tags. And Goofy says we have 5,000 general permits, where before we had 9,000-- that is a decrease of 4,000 tags. Again, that is based off his numbers and your splits. I personally saw more hunters on my LE hunts (all on the Nebo) than I see on the OTC-- but I don't hunt the OTC opening day.

2011 was horrible. The Central areas I hunt had snow everywhere and the roads were closed. All the hunters were limited by access and it was a mess. I have a 12 and 14 year old to take this year in the Central Region OTC. We'll be out hunting on public lands, enjoying the hike and watching out for ticks. What more can a guy ask for...

Here is what I know about turkey hunting--
-They are easier for me to call later in the season when the hens are setting.
-I'd never hunt opening weekend.
-I hunted last year in the Central OTC with my son and we saw 1 other hunter in 6 trips on public.
-I'd rather hunt private than public.
-I saw more birds on public than I saw on private.
-It is just turkey hunting.....


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Here is what I know about turkey hunting--
> -They are easier for me to call later in the season when the hens are setting.
> -I'd never hunt opening weekend.
> -I hunted last year in the Central OTC with my son and we saw 1 other hunter in 6 trips on public.
> ...


What he said...

Scott, the turkey "rut" in Utah is from about March 20th through June 15th depending on the weather. There are times when the birds are easier to fool than others. Those times change every year and from day to day. The secret, Just go hunt! Those birds will teach you everything you need to know.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the last 3 years of general turkey permit sales:

2010 - 10,118 permits
2011 - 6,528 permits
2012 - 5,275 permits

That's how I 'estimated 5K general permit tag sales in 2013. 
That trend continues, could easly be only be around 4,500 permits sold.

A very significant loss of income on tag sales for the DWR, 
So TEX, If it is all about the $$$$$, The DWR should be pushing for the return
of 100% LE hunting.......................


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

The one thing i have learned is those birds can cover some ground in a day. It can turn into a elk style hunt for very little meat. So maybe thats why the tag sales are down. The novelty of the hunt is wearing off.

Maybe this year ill get a general tag and try it again. Especially if the tag sales are going down.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> Turkeys love privite property in utah where i see them. They will leave privite property if access is limited but for the most part i see 10 times or more turkeys where I cant hunt. The general areas are slammed with hunters. I feel its like the general deer rifle hunt. I feel it sucks and wont buy a general tag until i personally see the turkey numbers on public land go up.


+1

Sums it up quite well for me... Both me and my wife gave it up. Didnt even put my 12 year old in for a permit either. Birds are either all on private and the pressure on public was crazy. I saw 10 people in a DRIVE LINE pushing to jump shoot turkeys in one area I was in. Saw hens shot, saw too much unethical behavior (people shooting, peppering other hunters etc).

I just dont care about that kind of hunting, it is a total turn off for me and certainly not worth spending the $$$ on. BTW, took me 7 years to draw a LE turkey tag, got one the 2nd day but the whole hunt left such a bad taste in my mouth I just havent even had a spark of desire to do it again.

-DallanC


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> So TEX, If it is all about the $$$$$, The DWR should be pushing for the return
> of 100% LE hunting.


We all know the DWR listens to all sides. That being said they have to try to come up with a plan that makes everyone happy. The NWTF and the wildlife board wanted over the counter sales, SFW did not. That tells me the state is still pandering to people with special interest and $$$$$$$$$$ in mind when making decisions. That will never end. Money talks.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

You know TEX, I agree with you on part of this $$$$ issue.

I DO believe the DWR pushed general turkey permit sales BECAUSE they thought
they would sell many more of them............

Looks like this plan has backfired on them, and A large number, of Utah's hunters don't want them.....per a $$$$$ point of view, the DWR should have left LE turkey hunting
as it was, and not pushed for a general hunt.

And another note, and possibly another topic at some point, is general season elk.
This trend seems to be carrying over there as well....
General any season bull permits DID NOT sale out last year, demand for spike permits
seem to be decreasing also.......
I'll be watching this situation closely, You can bet on that


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

With added opportunity, means smarter hunting is required. Some guys want less opportunity and easier hunting. I say let the smarter hunters continue to enjoy over the counter tags if the turkey populations are staying healthy. I bought a turkey tag a couple years ago, I saw turkeys but couldn't close the deal. I was pretty pumped, I went turkey hunting and saw birds. Can't ask much more than that for my first time.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Looks like this plan has backfired on them, and A large number, of Utah's hunters don't want them.....per a $$$$$ point of view, the DWR should have left LE turkey hunting
> as it was, and not pushed for a general hunt.


Close, but not entirely accurate... The gen season tags that nobody wants are the May first tags after all the LE idiots have stirred the birds up for three weeks and educated them. Make the general season tags good for April 15th through the end of may and eliminate LE turkey hunting all together and I think you'll see a different trend in tag sales. It will spike for a few years and then fall off again after the newness and enchantment wears off. Then, just like Idaho, we'll have good turkey hunting state wide with fewer crowds after the opening day Utard fest. Hell, we might even get to buy TWO tags over the counter eventually! Just like Idaho. Now who would whine about that? (besides SFW) I know, the same guy that would whine if he had a big boobie in his mouth... :roll: Cant please everyone... :|

LE hunting IS the problem, NOT the answer!


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

I don't put in for LE simply because I get 15 more days to hunt on GS. Can still find plenty of birds, and get away from the crowds. Especially with a whole month to hunt. Just skip the opening weekend and you have it made.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

I you are going to have GS be a month long LE should be a month long or longer. IMHO!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I may have forgot to mention before but I like the way things are set up now. I was really upset about the end of general season tags years ago but am glad to see their return. I do think the $35 is too much to spend on a turkey. $20 would be more reasonable.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Two years ago i drew my first turkey tag with 5 points, killed a good tom, and last year i did the general tag, killed another good Tom. I really enjoy the general season plus it honestly seems like the dumbest thing in the world to have to wait 5 years just to hunt a turkey--seriously think about that, five year wait-- crazy. It is great that we have the population base now that supports a general hunt, regardless of what system makes the most money, they were put here for the enjoyment of utah sportsmen and that should be maximized in regards to a self sustaining population. 

I am in favor of dumping the le tags and going straight general, the turkey population can take it so why not. They are a relatively new species for the state and regardless of the species I think you would see a similar fluctuation in tag demand, guys have to figure out if they like to hunt turkeys or not so everyone gives it a shot. The people who like it stay and others drop off, hence the decrease. This would become apparent in the le system, it just would have taken longer to see the same results.


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## captain (Nov 18, 2007)

I think you are all overevaluating the whole thing. I believe that the entire reason that the number of permit sales have decreased is because the novelty of turkey hunting has worn off. I personally know several people that just wanted to shoot one turkey to have a tail on the wall, then had no interest in doing it again, my dad being one of them. I saw the same thing up in Idaho where I hunt turkeys. I remember the first year that they opened up idaho to general turkey hunting. Every Tom, Dick, and Sally were up there trying to shoot turkeys. It was a zoo. Now there is very little pressure in the area I hunt. I think the novelty wears off and people just don't have the interest in hunting, and I believe that is what you are seeing in Utah. I believe that many people put in for the limited entry hunt because they assume there will be less people, and they have the first crack at the birds. I have found that the real determining factor on which hunt will be best, the LE or the GS, is the weather. Last year the LE hunt was better where we hunt, but the year before, the GS was a better hunt. It just determins how warm it gets and how quickly. I do see lots more people on the LE entry hunts than the GS hunts though. I really wouldn't care if they did away with all the LE hunts.


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## meltedsnowman (Jun 1, 2012)

Lol..this forum cracks me up. One guy said LE turkey tags are for the rich..HAHAHAHA its $10 more than GS. Secondly if you dont want to pay the extra buy a GS tag. Toms are strutting through june. LE doesnt guarantee a tom. Plenty of time in LE and GS to locate and take a good tom. Imo if u want to complain about a LE season it should be the LE any weap elk tags being in the height of the rut instead of october when it should. Utah turkey hunting is gaining good quality, just limited hunter knowledge about the birds. We are still fairly new compared to eastern states where the birds have been hunted by generation after generation. People are now realizing that turkeys are.harder to harvest than we thought. I know from my first LE rio grande tag in 95 that the opportunity has never been better. Oh one last jab...maybe if we could use a 10x scope and a .243 it would help then we wouldnt have to leave the road.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

My take on the numbers of hunters not applying for permits is the novelty of it has worn off. I really like the GS turkey hunt..It's a longer season..Wait until the opening weekend is over before you go out and you won't see many other hunters.
Do away with the LE season, and start the GS season in mid April and run it through the end of May.
My last two years of GS turkey hunting has been a very rewarding experience. I see birds every day but just have not had the chance to close the deal yet. Does that discourage me? Not at all. I learn something new from each close call. This year that bird is going down! I'm hunting in the thick stuff this year, no more sitting out where things are comfy.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Last year was the first year in 4 hunts (One LE for me, one LE for my wife, and two general hunts for me) that I didn't get a turkey. Honestly, the public land I hunt close to home was POUNDED by hunters the first week and the turkeys disappeared after that. Didn't see or hear a turkey in three trips, so if hunter numbers are going down, I wouldn't mind so much if some of the yahoos using shaker gobbles would stay home. Honestly, those things sound horrible, and any turkey called in by one deserves to get taken out of the gene pool.

Planning on looking at a different Central area I've heard that has turkeys and isn't too far from home. Seriously, with the price of gas and everything else, I have a hard time justifying travelling over two hours to hunt these birds. I do think they are one of the funnest hunts though. Hard to beat a tom strutting and gobbling in front of you at twenty yards!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Only in Utah is there a call for an increase in LIMITED ENTRY turkey permits! If it wasn't so sickening, it would be comical. We are talking TURKEYS for cripes sake.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Only in Utah is there a call for an increase in LIMITED ENTRY turkey permits! If it wasn't so sickening, it would be comical. We are talking TURKEYS for cripes sake.


A-freekin-men


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

:bump2:------ For Tex...


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

$35 for a turkey tag! At some point, a guy is going to look at $35 and think he can go down to the store and buy 2 or 3 turkeys for that price and spend nothing on gas.

At $35, I am at my max that I'm willing to spend on a turkey tag, I don't do the LE hunt, because I' m not paying an extra $10 for a tag I may not draw for myself and kids. Not to mention, the turkeys respond much better to calls in the GS vs the LE hunt in my experience.

Another problem with the LE hunt, is you have to harvest in your region, while the GS is statewide. That is also gay. Another vote for the termination of the LE hunt.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Goofy, quit trying to kiss up to Tex...we all know that you are for limited entry hunts for all species...come on Goofy, be a man...tell us the REAL reason you want to limit the opportunity for the many???
It is this simple...you have x number of guys that want to hunt turkeys, if you limit the number of days they have to choose from to go hunting, you are LIMITING their opportunity!
Most silly Utahns with only a couple years turkey hunting under their belts think they can get an edge on turkeys if we would only give them a special hunt (LE) that...oh, here is that word again...LIMITS the number of other hunters in the field.
One more thought...if we have a special permit (LE) we can control the numbers of permits available and hence control the supply and demand factor giving the SFW and other "conservation groups"(I just threw up in my mouth) a more valuable product to sell at their conventions...dah.

One more thing...STOP saying turkeys RUT...it only shows your ignorance. It is really hard to take you serious in a discussion about turkeys.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Well I don't know squat about turkey hunting but I do know it sounds very challenging and me and the grandson are going to go on our first hunt this year. May not get one but we'll learn by our mistakes.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I think I'm the norm here with what these numbers mean. I saw guys with pics of dead turkeys and got excited to hunt them. Bought a tag, went out and SAW birds but it was tough to close the deal. I see tons of turkeys out deer hunting and thought that would translate to "easy" hunting. I don't have time to scout both big game and turkeys, like most guys out there, so it's one or the other in most cases.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I grew up raising turkeys, so I was one of those who figured it couldn't be very hard to kill a big tom. But the severity of that misunderstanding is exactly why I keep hunting the buggers. I could not depart this world knowing that I'm not at least as smart as a turkey.

As others have mentioned, money talks. If y'all remember, the jokers on The Hill took up the issue of wild turkeys last year, claiming they are out of control and becoming pests. Makes me nervous - we ARE talking about Utah's legislature, after all. So I think it would be in our best interest to enthusiastically recruit as many new turkey hunters as possible. Best insurance for the future of turkey hunting in Utah is healthy retail business from turkey hunters.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> What's happening is this,
> A majority of Utah's turkey hunters are NOT buying the OTC tag,They are
> putting in for the LE stuff, If they don't draw, they wait.........
> 
> ...


Actually, if its anything like what's going on in my limited circle of hunting friends, they're not putting in Utah at all. Right now, aside from the UWN youth turkey camp we don't bother with Utah.

After that, we buy an over the counter tag in Idaho. Maybe it's just the honey hole we've stumbled onto, but up there I have yet to have a slob hunter drive up full speed off the trail, get out of the truck, and start shooting from the truck a flock we are working. I can't say the same about my experience here in Utah, but I'm hoping that Tex is right and the Utard element is dwindling.

Honestly I think you're getting less recruitment, because there aren't nearly as many people who are willing to drive more than an hour from the wasatch front to hunt a turkey, and the amount of public ground available in Northern Utah to chase birds is almost zero, thereby concentrating inexperienced hunters making rookie mistakes, right on top of one another.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Whatever change the DWR made to the hunt is the best option. As per every other thread by goofy, the DWR only makes changes that are perfect and in our best interest. General season was the right move then right?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Last springs bird ( LE 2013 ) for my 10 year old boy..^^^^^^










My 16 year ols 2012 LE bird ... ^^^^^^^^










And My Youger boys 2012 LE bird ... ^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is why we like our LE hunts BP..We kill the 'big ones' before the general 
stuff even starts..........8)


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## Redman82 (Apr 12, 2012)

All that I know is Utah turkeys are smart and hard to find. I hunted turkey in Missouri and my first year I bagged a 10" bearded bird that was around 4 years old. It took 4 years for me to get a LE tag in Utah and I hunted my a$$ off I scouted for a week and hunted 8 days and finally shot a jake with a 2 1/2" beard. These birds are way smarter and can hike straight up the mountain like an elk! Last year their was a complaint of too many birds. I'm not sure if it is about money or what.
sites: http://www.ksl.com/?nid=960&sid=24238068


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^ 10 years ago , turkey hunting was GOOD in Utah..;-)..^^^^^^^^

Even on public ground.:!:.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Grew up hunting turkeys in Western NY and PA....you want high pressured birds and a ton of people:shock:

Utah turkey hunting is good...its just not shooting fish in a barrel anymore...its hunting;-)


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## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

I'm giving turkeys a shot this year and going to continue for as long as I live. Duck and deer hunting have been a great experience for me all my life, but I'm useless after January and have nothing to occupy my time. The wife takes advantage of that and puts me to work. I got 4 decoys on the way (was cheaper buying 4 instead of 2 online) and a slate call. I also got a new shotgun for Christmas that I'm excited to use in a different setting other than waterfowl. The old one is retired after 14 seasons. I'm hoping to learn a lot this season. And if I happen to bag a bird, great!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I like hunting turkeys. I like hunting them on public land. On the mountain. Mountain birds are cool. 

I put in for the LE hunt. I've drawn it 3 times. If I don't draw it this year, I'll buy an OTC. I also plan to buy an OTC for my soon-to-be 10 year old daughter. I'll try for one of those cool mountain birds first with her. If we can't find one on the mountain, then we'll turn to some private and try to get a Rio. She won't care one way or another.

I plan to pay some money -- LE or OTC, it doesn't matter. I don't mind either way. The hunt is worth the cost. 

Why have numbers dropped? I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me -- those people that have quit purchasing tags must be plumb dumb. Turkey hunting is a blast. My only gripe with turkey hunting is all the silly guys in camo driving their ATV's looking for antlers. What's up with those losers??

Anyway -- turkey hunting is cool. I plan to spend some quality time clucking and cooing and blurping and gobbling with my daughter this spring. I think it will be fun.


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## huntfishlive (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm not a real educated person as far as game management goes, and I don't pretend to know things I don't know, but one thing that I can think of that might be bad if they allowed only OTC tags is that turkeys are much more vulnerable during the LE hunt. It is still a hunt, but they are much more occupied with other things. If they allowed a general season OTC hunt starting in April, wouldn't that be a serious factor? I think the success rate is higher for the LE hunt than the general season hunt (partly because lots of people go stir up the birds but also partly because they aren't nearly as involved with strut tin). I think that it would be similar to opening up a general rifle deer hunt with OTC tags during the late weeks of November right in the middle of the rut. Anyone with any further knowledge of that aspect please tell me if I'm wrong.

By the way, 3 hits on the credit card for turkey tags!


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Huntfishlive, sorry, but you are wrong. (you did ask)First, the active turkey breeding season runs from around the 1st of April until early June. They are not really any more "valnerable" during the last part of the season than they are at any other time. Part of the reason there appears to be higher success during the LE is that these guys are killing a lot of young, dumb birds. Also, as the spring progresses, the winter bunches are breaking up and the birds are spreading out, making them harder to locate. The birds also learn that the hunt is on and become much more elusive. The turkey hunt, both the LE and the OTC fall right in the middle of the prime breeding season. 
As far as the LE season being a good management tool, keep this in mind..Utah is the ONLY state in the entire USA that has a LE hunt. Every other state simply opens up turkey hunting to the general public. Do ya really think Utah knows more about turkey management than the whole rest of the country?
LE hunts of any species does only one thing...LIMITS opportunity for the many. Stop ALL LE HUNTS TODAY!!!







as to the


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> What's happening is this,
> A majority of Utah's turkey hunters are NOT buying the OTC tag,They are
> putting in for the LE stuff, If they don't draw, they wait.........


You are on the right track here, Goofy, but once again just a bit only with one tire. I think you are right in saying that many people put in for the LE hunt and then, if they don't draw, wait....but, it is the why that you are messing up a bit. The truth is that a lot of people assume that the general hunt will not be very good and that the early LE hunt is the cream of the crop for turkeys. But, then again, why wouldn't they. I mean, come on....look at what Utah has done with its other hunts. We have forced fed Utah hunters for years now that we have to have LE hunts to make our hunts "good" or "quality" as you put it, so what do all these "utard" hunters believe? Just that. The management practices of our state have taught hunters that the best deer hunts are LE, the best elk hunts are LE, so the "utards" automatically assume that the best turkey hunts have to be LE as well....I think you are right about why people aren't purchasing those tags. But I definitely don't think that means we need to turn the turkey hunt into an LE hunt....it just means we need to turn some of our other hunts into general season!

What it tells me is that Utah hunters have been force fed such a pile of garbage for so long now that we have lost touch with what hunting is all about. We think we have to have special seasons to create "trophy" or "quality" animals or "quality" hunts...when the truth is far from that!

And, FWIW, I haven't put in for an LE turkey hunt the past two seasons because I felt like the general season hunt was every bit as good....!


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## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but how much in demand are the OTC turkey tags? I'm wondering if I need to be at the DNR's office right when it opens or if it's just something I can pick up when I decide.


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

I think UT turkey hunting would be better today had they gone to straight merriams stock instead of mostly rios. Merriams are built for the cold and snow, and rios are not.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

JuniorPre 360 said:


> Not meaning to hijack the thread, but how much in demand are the OTC turkey tags? I'm wondering if I need to be at the DNR's office right when it opens or if it's just something I can pick up when I decide.


Utahs general turkey permits are UNLIMITED ....

You can buy them up til the very last day of the hunt...


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> You are on the right track here, Goofy, but once again just a bit only with one tire. I think you are right in saying that many people put in for the LE hunt and then, if they don't draw, wait....but, it is the why that you are messing up a bit. The truth is that a lot of people assume that the general hunt will not be very good and that the early LE hunt is the cream of the crop for turkeys. But, then again, why wouldn't they. I mean, come on....look at what Utah has done with its other hunts. We have forced fed Utah hunters for years now that we have to have LE hunts to make our hunts "good" or "quality" as you put it, so what do all these "utard" hunters believe? Just that. The management practices of our state have taught hunters that the best deer hunts are LE, the best elk hunts are LE, so the "utards" automatically assume that the best turkey hunts have to be LE as well....I think you are right about why people aren't purchasing those tags. But I definitely don't think that means we need to turn the turkey hunt into an LE hunt....it just means we need to turn some of our other hunts into general season!
> 
> What it tells me is that Utah hunters have been force fed such a pile of garbage for so long now that we have lost touch with what hunting is all about. We think we have to have special seasons to create "trophy" or "quality" animals or "quality" hunts...when the truth is far from that!
> 
> And, FWIW, I haven't put in for an LE turkey hunt the past two seasons because I felt like the general season hunt was every bit as good....!


Y-to-Ut, you are right on the money. It is truly sad how Utah hunters have unknowing bought into this whole LE, "tags for money" scheme. You know, the original idea was OK...let's set aside a couple small areas for the true trophy hunter, lets limit the number of hunters and let the herd develop naturally, etc, etc...all well and good. Then the guides and "hunt for money guys" stepped in and walla...we have what we got now...nearly all prime hunting areas are LE entry and unavailable for traditional hunting. Family units that had been hunting "their" spots for generations forced out, hunters forced to wait literally a lifetime for a chance to hunt, while the rich can simply buy a tag at the so called "conservation" groups conventions. 
Don't tell me this is the best system, STOP ALL LE HUNTS NOW!!

*and hawglips*, the beautful Merriums (my favorite) turkey is a very specialized bird that requires a very specific habitat. Utah has limited amounts suitable for the Merriums. Without the introductions of the Rio, Rio/hybrid, we would not have turkey hunting in America(that includes Utah) as we have it today. The transplanting of the Rio is the biggest single factor in the recovery of turkeys in America!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> *and hawglips*, the beautful Merriums (my favorite) turkey is a very specialized bird that requires a very specific habitat. Utah has limited amounts suitable for the Merriums. Without the introductions of the Rio, Rio/hybrid, we would not have turkey hunting in America(that includes Utah) as we have it today. The transplanting of the Rio is the biggest single factor in the recovery of turkeys in America!


You are absolutely right....merriams were very hit and miss turkeys in utah. Their populations would begin to rise when we would lose a bunch in a bad winter or dry summer. It wasn't until rios were introduced to Utah that our turkey numbers really took off. In fact, most of our turkeys now are probably rio/merriam hybrids that have adapted pretty well to our utah climate. Without rios, though, our turkey hunting would be much more limited than it is now...as would our turkey populations.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Hmmm,
Not sure how anyone coudln't reconize the the LE hunt isn't better?

Heck , just having the first crack at them , with less crowding does it for me.:smile:.
And my family, WE ALL DREW southern LE tags this year... 4 southern LE tags.:!:.
SWEET..


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Goofy, the quality of the LE is not the issue here at all. It's just that when you carve out a third of the available hunting time, in the case of turkey hunting, or the thousands of acres of the most prime hunting habitats in the case of big game hunts and give it to a very few people, you are limiting the available hunting time or habitat to the many. There is no management reason to limit the turkey harvest, so Goofy, think about what us anti LE guys are really saying and join our fight, let's stop ANY scheme that is limiting opportunity for Utah hunters and their families.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Sorry BP, I LOVE LE hunting !!!!

I've learnd how to obtain the LE tags in Utah , 
And the limited quota permits in our surounding states......

In the last 15 years (or more) I've only hunted a handful of general turkey
and deer tags. The other 35 plus hunts my family has done are LE/LQ tags ..

We have points on different spices in Ut/WY/AR/NV/and Col built up ..
I can almost schedual what permits I want when over the next 10-12 years !!!
I have a plan ! and going to use it well !!


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