# Big Game Drawing: Addressing the Butt Jam



## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

I have been wondering of late about how effective our current system is for distributing big game tags. There are many things I like about the bonus point system we have but I also fear it may be the perfect system for maximizing the butt jam of people waiting in line for a tag. I feel like the bonus points now have a value attached and people are cramming friends and relatives into the drawing in order to cash in on that value. Of course this is exactly what high-dollar guides and outfitters want. But for the average guy who wants to hunt, all that cramming is a very bad thing. While there are surely other options out there, I'd like to know people's thoughts on the 4 most common/basic techniques for drawing tags: Preference points, random draw, bonus points, and our hybrid bonus point/random draw.

Preference point systems give tags only to the high point holders. There is zero chance of drawing a tag until you've accrued enough points to "buy" one. This is a very fair way of doing it. Low point holders, youngsters, and those too old to wait around may not like this though.

Randomly drawing tags each year puts everyone on level ground each year. There is nothing you can do to increase your odds except maybe live very righteously for a few weeks before the actual drawing. 

Bonus points increase your odds of drawing a tag in a random drawing. There is never a guarantee of a tag however. 

Our hybrid bonus/preference point system should need no explanation. 

I understand that changing the current system would be extremely difficult given the opposition. I know that the most influential groups around here love having the butt jam because it adds $$ value to our LE tags. But all that aside, which system would you put into place if you could choose? Would one be better than another at getting rid of the insane point creep problem and fairly distributing tags to those that just want to hunt?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I personally prefer the preference point system but I doubt that Utah is going to change. 

I actually think that one way to help the back log of the draw out a little would be to go back to requiring payment for the tag up front and then getting a refund if you don't draw, also they need to allow residents to put in for all the draws that they can afford. Why should non residents be able to put in for everything while a resident can't as it is now.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Leave the LE and OIAL draw system ALONE .... The 50/50 split is good.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Of the choices listed I like the current system. The only thing I would like to see changed is the LE & OIL 50/50 split. I think a 60/40 or 70/30 split would help with point creep while still giving non max pt. holders a chance at drawing.

I hope we never see the day when residents can apply for all LE & OIL species! As it is now you can see the light at the end of the tunnel for whatever species you apply for. If residents could apply for everything it would dramatically drop draw odds for anyone without max points. Just look at what it did to nonresident draw odds since being allowed to apply for everything. The state did NOT allow that change to give nonresidents more opportunity to hunt, it was done to increase revenue through application fees.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I prefer random draw like Idaho. Every person is equal. It doesn't matter if you just got into hunting, you still have a chance at actually getting to hunt!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

There already is a random draw! for %50 of the LE permits!

Once again, Utah has this one RIGHT! Leave it alone.

If Utah went to a totally radom draw for LE permits,
You stand a chance of NEVER drawing a LE permit your lifetime.............

That's why we have a 50/50 split.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> There already is a random draw! for %50 of the LE permits!
> 
> Once again, Utah has this one RIGHT! Leave it alone.
> 
> ...


I agree. The LE and OIL are about as fair of a system as possible.

Now, what I'd like to see are changes in the Deer draw. -Ov-


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

Catherder said:


> I agree. The LE and OIL are about as fair of a system as possible.
> 
> Now, what I'd like to see are changes in the Deer draw. -Ov-


I agree completely with Catherder and goofy elk. LE is working great and please do something with the deer problem. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The answer is to do away with the prefrence point system:!:

Put both general general deer and antlerless draws on Bonus point, 50/50 split.

One point system FOR EVERYTHING:grin:..........Less complicated.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Is the current point system working for hard to draw units? The facts are simple--

Buffalo- 1 in 110+
Des Sheep- 1 in 120+
Rocky Sheep- 1 in 120+
Moose- 1 in 150+
Henry Mtns Deer- 1 in 250+

Half of all eligible permits are given to the highest point holders so the rest of the applicants' odds get even worse. Why are we giving preference to a group which allows them to assured a permit when others can't draw the same permit over the course of 2 lifetimes? 

Of course, the guy sitting there with enough points to be guaranteed a permit would never want to see that changed. Goofy will draw a moose tag in the next 5 years, but his sons will never be assured to draw a moose tag. Same with me, I drew a tag because of this system, but my kids or friend who started hunting a decade ago will never be afforded the same. 

Any tag with higher than 1 in 50 odds should probably be given in a random draw. Maybe add points in to give additional chances, but nothing should be assured for tags that take generations to obtain.

There is no painless answer.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

I agree with goofyelk that complete random drawing would be terrible! With any type of point system you atleast know at some point you'll get a tag. With a 100% random drawing you may go your entire lifetime without getting a coveted tag while your neighbor got to go on that premium hunt 5 or 6 times. Just look at the Idaho forum on MM, theres guys that havent got a coveted tag in decades while some others seem to get one every other year.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The sad thing about Utah's system now is that I know of 3 hunters that have gone on 2 any weapon LE elk hunts before others have even drawn their first tag in the same unit. What is right about that? I know it is just the luck of the draw. 

It is too bad that after you have a few points that you might as well as quit putting in for the draw since you are now in the middle ground and may never draw that tag as you watch others draw it with 0 or 1 point. 

There is also a problem in the ways that the draws are set up. It is entirely possible for a hunter to not draw a tag and then have the tags go on sale to the general public as a left over tag due to other hunters returning tags. 

Utah has a can of worms opened up with their multiple point system tag draw procedures and a few other things but I can't see them changing anything in the near or far future.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Critter,
Leftover GS deer tags have nothing to do with people returning tags. When a GS or antlerless tag is returned in does NOT go to anyone else. Issuing a returned permit to an other applicant only occurs on LE & OIL hunts. The problem your talking about came about when the wildlife board accepted the DWRs proposal to allow unsold archery & muzzy tags to rollover and turn in to any weapon permits. Which IMO is terrible wildlife and unit management.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Critter said:


> The sad thing about Utah's system now is that I know of 3 hunters that have gone on 2 any weapon LE elk hunts before others have even drawn their first tag in the same unit. What is right about that? I know it is just the luck of the draw.<<<<<<<<EXACTLY!
> 
> It is too bad that after you have a few points that you might as well as quit putting in for the draw since you are now in the middle ground and may never draw that tag as you watch others draw it with 0 or 1 point.
> What??, The 'middle ground' guys are in the %50 random draw ....
> ...


We could simplifey, All permits on bonus points, 50/50 split.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

So I am a little confused now.....I was under the impression that LE tags were a 50/50 split as stated. That half the tags went into a draw where everyone was put in 0 points 20 points whatever, and that your name went in that draw as many times as you had points. Then the other 50% of tags was solely for those with one point or more and your name still went in as many times as you had points. Can anyone clear this up in simple terms? While youre at it maybe take a stab at this bonus point thing for GS tags.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I would like to see one minor change to system, is that I would like to see the odd numbered permits go into the bonus point pool. With exception to units with only (1) tag available. So if there was 3 tags available, two would go into the bonus pool and one into random. If there's 101 tags available, then 51 goes into the bonus pool and 50 into random. 
Right now they send the odd numbered permit into the random draw.
I would also like to see a 60/40 split.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> So I am a little confused now.....I was under the impression that LE tags were a 50/50 split as stated. That half the tags went into a draw where everyone was put in 0 points 20 points whatever, and that your name went in that draw as many times as you had points. Then the other 50% of tags was solely for those with one point or more and your name still went in as many times as you had points. Can anyone clear this up in simple terms?


Bonus Points:

50% of the tags are for people with bonus points, specifically they draw people with the most points first, followed by people with the 2nd most points, 3rd most etc on down until there are no more tags left.

Lets say a unit has 20 tags total, and a theoretical group of applicants as follows: 2 people have 12 points, 3 have 11 points and 6 people have 10 points ( we can ignore all applicants with less than 10 points because all the tags will be awarded before they ever come into play)

Now, 10 tags are taken out of the base pool of 20 for this draw. The 2 people with 12 points automatically get tags so that leaves 8 tags. Now they draw from the next pool, where there are 3 guys with 11 points, they also all get a tag. That now leaves 5 tags remaining so they do the next tier's draw which has 10 people in it. According to who has the best drawn "number", the final 5 tags are awarded and there are 5 unhappy people who had a 1 in 2 chance to draw their tag.

The remainder of the tags, 10... are now dumped into a free-for-all, where everyone eligable who did not draw a tag, can now have a shot at drawing. This is where the guys with 0, 1 or 2 pts etc have a tiny chance to draw a tag.

Its pretty much as fair as its ever going to be. It awards tags to people who are able to stay in the draw pool the longest... but newcomers have a shot at a tag as well.



> While youre at it maybe take a stab at this bonus point thing for GS tags.


Its called Preference pts in this case, and really... we need to stop thinking of it as a GS tag, its ALL limited entry now.

Anyway its much simplier, all tags go to those with the most preference points. They start with guys with the most points and award tags down until they run out of tags.

Right now a hunter can apply for a LE tag and a "general" tag. If we went to a straight bonus point system and killed the preference pts, then you would see ALOT of guys drop out of the current LE unit draws as they would rather hunt every year, than go a few years between tags. Those diehards who felt is worth it, could still chase LE tags, drawing every few years. It would really clean up the long waits for some of these LE's. There would be easier and harder units to draw and people would choose how to spend their pts when they apply.

I would be for it and I would like to see the same thing applied to elk to dimish that pool a bit. You can put in for a LE elk tag or a GS elk tag, not both.

-DallanC


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

DC explained the details well. The simple way to look at the LE & OIL draw is 50% of permits go to the applicants with the most bonus points. The remaining 50% then go into a random drawing for those who did not get a BP permit.

I personally like the idea of combining the GS & LE deer into one, but I don't think that will ever happen because of the DH Program. The program is here to stay and I can only imagine the outcry from those who are not willing to donate time to the DWR when someone who is willing to work gets to hunt the Henrys or Paunsaugunt 3 years in a row.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks to DallenC and huntinfanatic. So basically there is no draw for 50% of tags. They are just awarded to the highest point holders? 
I come from a time where you bought permits over the counter and you could hunt all three hunts if you wanted. Those times are long gone I guess. So with these "preference points", I put my wife in for her first ever deer tag this year. She drew choice number two (which is kamas unit and the boundary is not what I thought it was. Guess I should have paid more attention to that. Now a new area to learn) Anyway, whe was awarded a point? Is that a preference point for that specific area to draw next year or a point to be applied to any unit?:shock:


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That point that your wife earned can be used in the draw for any general unit but not for a LE hunt. 

I agree times have changed. When I started hunting there was no muzzle loader season, just archery and rifle and then areas in the state where you could take 2 or more deer and then there were the late seasons that you could hunt areas with your buck tag. Elk hunting was mostly unheard of. If you did manage to draw a bull tag you had to wait 5 years before you could put in for another one. There was no such thing as a moose hunt not to mention no mountain goats either, and all of the bison and sheep tags were a random draw with no points.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> Thanks to DallenC and huntinfanatic. So basically there is no draw for 50% of tags. They are just awarded to the highest point holders?


Yes, this is true for LE and OIAL permits, bonus points ....

Prefrence points used for general deer and antlerless, %100 of
permits so to top point holders ....


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## Broadside_Shot (Feb 22, 2010)

The problem with the Draw is that no matter how you program you computer it will never be totally random.

The draw runs from an Algorithm that is programmed by someone. They try their best buy adding as many factors as they can but for some reason the system likes to repeat itself instead of being completely random.

This is why you see the same people continually beat the odds.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

packout said:


> is the current point system working for hard to draw units? The facts are simple--
> yes, imho, it is working.
> 
> look at the total permits availble for these draws in 2013:
> ...


jmho


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

I happen to think Nevada's system is the fairest of them all. Every person in the draw has a chance. But, the more points you have, the better your odds.
I am strongly in favor of a strictly bonus point system. No more general season and LE. Make them what they really are, one in the same. This would absolutely help the back log.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

blazingsaddle, I personaly like Nevadas bonus point system as-well ..

BUT, If Utah were to change to bonus point squaring, it would do NOTHING
to change the back log...

Bottom line: X number of applicants, X number of permits avalible....

only thing that will change the backlog in more permits, OR less applicants.
No matter what draw system is used, it WILL NOT change the back log


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

In reality I believe that there are a couple of different groups of hunters in Utah that like and dislike the current draw system. The ones that like it are the ones that have drawn a couple of tags in the current system or have family members that have, which is fine. The other group are the ones that haven't drawn a tag and have 15+ points for OIL and Le hunts and get frustrated at watching someone with less than 5 points draw a tag or draw multiple tags before they have. 

In the long run I don't see anything changing in the system. The majority of hunters will keep putting in for hunts that they will never draw and others will keep getting lucky and draw tags every few years.


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> blazingsaddle, I personaly like Nevadas bonus point system as-well ..
> 
> BUT, If Utah were to change to bonus point squaring, it would do NOTHING
> to change the back log...
> ...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Agreed on deer hunt only, General deer season would be no more.(is anyway)

All deer hunting would be LE, one point system, and one application for permits.

I also know there are RAC and Board members that strongly oppose this idea.
Because if this were the case, anyone applying for ANY deer tag,
would NOT be allowed to apply for LE elk or antelope ....OR buy a point.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

This post really only pertains to hunts which have odds higher than 1 in 50.

So today we save 50% of the permits for guys who have waited 18 years. They get theirs. But the guys who have waited 8 years today will never - NEVER - be assured the same permit, even if they wait 50 more years. 

So Goofy and his wife have 16 points. Doesn't matter to him that his kid (or mine or yours) has 1 or 3 or 0. That is the selfish behavior driving today's wildlife management. 

"I have 15 years invested. I DESERVE - I am OWED - a Henry Mtns deer tag because I have waited soooo long." It doesn't matter that the guy with 15 points could not have put in for the Henry Mtns for 15 years because it wasn't even a LTD Unit 15 years ago. 

Guys are equating the length of time they wait to some sort of right or guarantee for a tag or a certain size animal. They don't look at how long the line is behind them and that those coming after will never obtain a tag. And giving a tag to one kid wouldn't make the system any better.

Some of these hunts take 1-4 lifetimes to obtain. 4-16 generations. Longer than the USA has been the USA. Drawing many permits takes longer than planes have flown and longer than Utah has even been a state. And we give half of the qualifying permits to the guys who have applied for 18 years-- all because they were eligible to apply at the arbitrary point in time when the point system was started. That is a flawed system of distribution.

Again, my thoughts really only pertain to hunts with odds worse than 1 in 50+. 

No painless answer for anyone. Not for the guy with 16 moose points or the kid who can apply for the first time next year.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Just to be clear, I have 18 moose points. my wife has 16.
I also put in for moose tags before the point system..
It cost $200 up front, and they held your money for 5 months!

Bottom line packout, THERE ARE 63 MOOSE TAGS AVALIBLE (2013) :!:
17,000 resident hunters applying for 63 resident tags!!!!!!!! 

PLUS moose hunting is not getting any better in Utah, the whole situation sucks.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

There are around 24,000 moose applicants and there are 86 moose permits. 34 moose permits go to the guys with the most points. Around 24,000 people vying for 52 tags, all while 125 or so guys try for the 34 bonus permits. 

All well and good though if a guy has enough points to draw in the next 10 years. Kind of a bummer if a guy has less than 15 moose points. That is an additional 15-40 year wait for guys with 15 moose points.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I exculded the CWMU and Non res from my numbers.

Utah Resident only, 63 moose tags and 17,000 applicants.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2013_oial_permits.pdf


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Some good discussion so far. I see some major flaws in the current system as well. Hunts change so much over time that "waiting in line" is not a fair way to distribute tags. So that rules out any kind of long-term preference point system. Also, being able to use bonus points effectively as cash to "buy" tags puts a monetary value on the points. This is a big reason for the back log. We need to eliminate the cash value associated with applying for a tag. So there's another strike against the current system. And when somebody does finally draw a tag they should be cleared out of the system long enough to give others a chance. Strike 3. Our current system has no real waiting periods because you can enter the LE draw for a different species even while on a waiting period! 

I'm not opposed to giving preference to those who have been applying longer, so a true bonus-point system would be fine with me. 100% of the tags going into the random drawing, and you're entered once for this year and once for each point you have. Some will say it's not fair, but I would bet that thousands of people exit the draw under this system. That's because those thousands are not really hunters, but human identities who are entered by their spouse or relative. Under this system the points would no longer have much value, and people would quit buying them. Tags would be easier to come by for those of us who actually hunt. I think you would see an even greater reduction in applicants by going to a random draw with no point system at all.

Of course the biggest gripe about a random drawing is that some could draw multiple tags before others draw their first. That should be addressed with waiting periods. The more difficult a tag is to draw, the greater the waiting period! People would gladly wait 10 or 15 years before drawing a tag for a prime area, so why not get them a tag sooner and have them wait that long AFTER the hunt? What is the difference? A 10 year waiting period should be assigned to anyone drawing a tag with odds of 50:1 or more. And that waiting period should apply to all of the LE drawings, not just the species somebody draws for. Of course, lesser tags should require a shorter wait. Why not have a custom waiting period assigned to each hunt? Anywhere from 0-10 years? 

I also think all deer hunts should be grouped into one drawing. Call the current LE areas "premium", and make those hunts off limits to LE elk applicants; DH and Lifetime License holders would have to get those tags through the drawing like everyone else. 

Ok I've rambled enough now. Somebody else's turn.


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

All of the problems with any type of lottery system could be easily eliminated by simply moving to a capitalist, market driven system where the true value of the tag is dictated by the free market.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> oldTimer All of the problems with any type of lottery system could be easily eliminated by simply moving to a capitalist, market driven system where the true value of the tag is dictated by the free market.


Bull crap. The financially privileged already have a stranglehold on the best tags. There is no need to give the rich more privileges when it comes to PUBLIC property!


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

If you're going to have a point system, I like a hybrid system like Utah's. However - my I've come to believe that a random draw is the best. (I do think Utah needs an overhaul in a few areas like their general deer system, but I've posted that before).

Sure you might be unlucky and never draw, but odds are you will. 

Any point system decreases draw odds overall by bloating applicant numbers due to applicants feeling a need to apply every year to gain points and not lose the equity they've gained through past years applications. Also people find ways to try and cheat point systems by putting in with grandma, mom etc so their point averages increase and eat the tag money.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Oil tags will always be oil. To many applicants not enough resource. 

Elk tags are a sham! Most units are managed for 4.5 year old bulls. Get rid of the spike tags and issue more bull tags! Move some people through the system! You can have the spike hunts on san juan and pavant type units. There is no reason to make a 4.5 year average age an oil tag!

Make you pick a unit for deer. No general tags. No lifetime liscence tags. You want better odds at trophy you will sit a few years. You want to hunt go with a unit managed for smaller bucks. 

Its easy to fix this system but too many greedy people with an entitlement attitudes to turn the draw butt plug around.

I just play the bs system we have and look out of state for more opportunity.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

swbuckmaster said:


> Elk tags are a sham! Most units are managed for 4.5 year old bulls. Get rid of the spike tags and issue more bull tags! Move some people through the system! You can have the spike hunts on san juan and pavant type units. There is no reason to make a 4.5 year average age an oil tag!


One of the truest things I've read on here in a long time! Agree 150 billion percent:!: One thing I would add as a possibility to satisfy the extreme trophy hunters. You could keep 3 or 4 LE areas that require max points to draw. Kinda like the Henrys for deer. But make all other units easier to draw, and let people hunt! It shouldn't take 19 years to draw a Wasatch or Manti tag!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Pick up a bow...

5/6 points is a gaurenteed elk tag on both the Manti and Wasatch!

5 year wait is fair .... U can hunt it every 8-10 years ...

I do, I've had 4LE elk tags since 1992.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> Pick up a bow...


That's all I hunt with, I'm just nothing the general length of time it takes one to draw. Especially with the 5 year waiting period. That should usually be about 10 years between tags with our current system. For archery at least. Rifle would be more like 25 years. I drew Wasatch with 5 points, currently waiting 5 more years before I can put in again. Was the waiting period less before? Cause that's 21 years since 92' and should only be more like 2 tags...I would gladly take a tag every 5 years! Who are you related to Goofy?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I did get lucky and drew a Bookcliff elk tag in 1992, the last year
of radom draws. the elk waiting period was 2 years back then.
BUT,Then, they sarted the bonus point syteme in 93, waved everyone
on the wating periods to start even .....

Other archery tags I've drawn:
Paunsaugaunt deer, twice.. 90 & 97
Parker antelope, twice... 2005 & 09
Thousandlakes deer 2006
Anthro elk Twice.....2004 and this year.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Good on Goofy for playing the game and finding a way to be successful.

Admittedly I'm a numbers geek and I like the statistical analysis of the odds. In my opinion there are well defined tiers in terms of quality and reputation (not including CWMU & Premium hunts) for elk: 
- 31 units that draw with less than 5 points. Mostly archery & what some would consider "low end" muzzleloader.
- 23 units that draw with between 5 & 10 points. Some really good archery units, mid-tier but good muzzleloader units, decent late rifle units, and low end early rifle units.
- 38 units that draw with between 10 & 15 points. High end archery, some really good muzzleloader, really good late rifle, and mid-tier early rifle units.
- and finally 15 units that draw with 15+ points. These are your premium, top level archery, muzzleloader, and rifle hunts.
It seems to me like with a little bit of research, somebody can determine how often they want to hunt and pick a unit... or pick a unit and prepare mentally, emotionally, and spiritually for the long haul. Just my opinion.

One side of the numbers that seems to get lost in the fray is the number of tags offered per unit... this is likely why there have been guys like Goofy that have "beaten the system." Inevitably, simply due to the volume of tags offered to the 50% that don't have the most bonus points, you see a higher number of guys that draw with low points coming from units that offer more tags... Wasatch, Manti, etc.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

If you really want to change the drawing, why not make it interesting. If ESPN or Yahoo! or CBSSports can manage millions of fantasy football drafts... why not have a drawing run similarly? Just a thought I've kicked around a couple times with friends.
You apply as an individual or group just like you would now but you apply for species only. You receive an email with a time to log into the system to make your selection based upon the random number assigned to you. You then select from any available unit & weapon type.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Waiting periods might be an easy thing to get changed. Derek, using your breakdown of elk units there could be 3 different waiting periods. 8 year, 12 year, and 16 year waiting periods. When you draw a tag, you subtract the points it took you to draw from the assigned waiting period for that area. Then you sit out the LE drawing for every species for that many years. This way people who draw with fewer points will still end up waiting a similar amount of time to those who burn max points for a tag. Under this system you could potietially be hunting archery LE hunts every 8-9 years. 

I love the idea of getting rid of spike hunts and being able to hunt LE every 3-5 years...but we already talked about that a couple of years ago. Way too much opposition to that idea.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

El Matador said:


> I love the idea of getting rid of spike hunts and being able to hunt LE every 3-5 years...but we already talked about that a couple of years ago. Way too much opposition to that idea.


Yep, That's were the changes will happen!
PLUS , the elimanation of general any bull, which , I think will come 1st!

Wait and see! less than 5 years out.. General any bull will go away. JMO.

My kid's have NEVER owned a spike/AB gen tag,,My last one was 12-13 yrs ago!


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