# Countdown to opener 196 days



## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Bart does not post in the right spot and I will keep it updated. *DAYS UNTIL ELK AND DEER OPENER*


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

Man it goes by quick and not quick enough. I am really looking forward to chasing deer on the opener this year. I also need to find those pesky elk a little better. I think I have them figured then they loose me. Man this hunting stuff is consuming *-HELP!-* Well BRING IT ON


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

Can't wait... its going to be awesome to have both tags this year.... and one or the other is going down, and hopefully both a buck and an elk. That would make my year!!!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*



HOGAN said:


> Bart does not post in the right spot and I will keep it updated. *DAYS UNTIL ELK AND DEER OPENER*


 :roll:


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

What? I am doing you a favor. _(O)_


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

How so, on 'my' thread bowgy just posted a picture of his ARCHERY LE bull. So, my thread is better. *(u)*


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

Again in the wrong section. So it is nullified.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*



HOGAN said:


> Again in the wrong section. So it is nullified.


Are not elk *BIG GAME*? :? _(O)_


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

What kind of hunt are we counting down? _(O)_


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*



proutdoors said:


> HOGAN said:
> 
> 
> > Again in the wrong section. So it is nullified.
> ...


Depends on if you're shooting in the south or a cow/spike in a general area. :lol:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*



HOGAN said:


> Bart does not post in the right spot and I will keep it updated. *DAYS UNTIL ELK AND DEER OPENER*


Or, 197 days until I have to make decision whether to hunt for deer or elk. Or, 197 days until I have to decide to change my traditional opening weekend hunting area so I can hunt both deer or elk...or, 197 days until I have to choose which hunt I lose time on.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*



wyoming2utah said:


> HOGAN said:
> 
> 
> > Bart does not post in the right spot and I will keep it updated. *DAYS UNTIL ELK AND DEER OPENER*
> ...


               Explain how you lose any time. You get 28 days to hunt deer, same as last year, you get 23 days to hunt spikes/cows, same as last year, you get 28 days for any-bull/LE elk, FIVE MORE DAYS than last year. :?

HOGAN, it is 197 days until callofthewild's LE *ELK* hunt starts! And, he gets an extra 5 days to hunt this year, I'll think of a propoer 'fee' for getting that for him. :mrgreen:


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## MarkM (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

I am very excited about the bow hunt this year and being able to chase both deer and elk for a week. I am a little worried about it being a bit more crowded on the opener but as I hunt a roadless area and most other hunters in the area don't want to leave there ATV's I think it is going to work out pretty good.

Mark


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*



proutdoors said:


> Explain how you lose any time. You get 28 days to hunt deer, same as last year, you get 23 days to hunt spikes/cows


Really simple: If I choose to hunt deer in my traditional hunting area, I lose days to hunt elk because no elk live in this deer hunting area. So, because of this change, either I choose to lose deer hunting days or I choose to leave my traditional deer-hunting ground....both choices suck!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

How do you get through the day with such a negative outlook? :?

Easy solution for some one not looking at being a victim: hunt elk on the opener, then the 5 days 'lost' for hunting deer can be 'gained' right back the last 5 days. Problem solved, of course that means you can't blame someone else for your misery, so go on playing the woe is me card. _(O)_


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

No matter how you twist it, I have still lost the most important days to harvest an elk.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*



proutdoors said:


> How do you get through the day with such a negative outlook? :?
> 
> Easy solution for some one not looking at being a victim: hunt elk on the opener, then the 5 days 'lost' for hunting deer can be 'gained' right back the last 5 days. Problem solved, of course that means you can't blame someone else for your misery, so go on playing the woe is me card. _(O)_


OUCH!

Woe is me, not him.

I'm shooting an elk opening day, so it doesn't matter! Deer season is in November anyway. :mrgreen:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

Now....I'm confused :?

Which one is the *true* countdown to the opener.?? And, why isn't this posted at 5:00 am daily for us people that hafta work for a living ?

Tsk..tsk...tsk...I wish somebody would get this straight.. _(O)_


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*



proutdoors said:


> Easy solution for some one not looking at being a victim: hunt elk on the opener, then the 5 days 'lost' for hunting deer can be 'gained' right back the last 5 days. Problem solved, of course that means you can't blame someone else for your misery, so go on playing the woe is me card. _(O)_


That's easy for a guide/outfitter to say...but, when you are a teacher/coach, that just ain't really possible...no matter how you try to twist it, the new change sucks for some of us!


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## callofthewild (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Countdown to opener 197 days*

Or, 197 days until I have to make decision whether to hunt for deer or elk. Or, 197 days until I have to decide to change my traditional opening weekend hunting area so I can hunt both deer or elk...or, 197 days until I have to choose which hunt I lose time on.[/quote]

this is a no brainer just hunt deer where you are hunting elk. yes you might have to change your deer area but you do know they live all over the state not just where you hunt.


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## LETTER-RIP (Sep 14, 2007)

It looks like the elk in the LE areas will have a week off before the anyweapon hunts start. Which was probably a big reason for the change. The any weapon hunters need as much help as they can get. As if it is not easy enough for them.
Prime Rut. With a gun??
Archery guys will be out of there early this year. To insure that the LE guys have even a better chance of killing there bull.
I think that LE hunters should have to hunt there elk during the regular season when everyone else is hunting. Why do they have to make it so easy for them.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

The LE guys still get the 5 days, just the spike hunters kill % was way too high so they want to lower that and raise the LE kill rate. :roll: :? **O**


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## LETTER-RIP (Sep 14, 2007)

I had no idea that the kill % was that high for the spike hunters. I really don't look at those things. I do however have a strong feeling for all these LE hunts and the way that they run them. 2 Thumbs up for all the Archery guys bagging spikes and cows in these units. Backstraps in the freezer.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

The % for spike hunter is nothing. Maybe 8% success rate, now 5%, and the 50% success rate for LE will remain the same even though they get the 5 premium days to themselves. We changed the season hunting dates for 25 people, majority does not always rule.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)




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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

<<--O/


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Joey I've had my ear practically ripped off on the elk date change. I ain't got much of an option but to try and get this un-done at next years bucks and bulls RACs.

I stood and _*personally *_ supported this idea and have since been told 
that it ain't what is in the best interest of the majority of bow elk hunters.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I know. I knew it was going to happen and did nothing about it. Good work. I am just giving bart a hard time, but we do need the season dates to move the other way. I will dig up the thread I started up, good info.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3150&start=0


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> *wyo2ut wrote:* That's easy for a guide/outfitter to say...but, when you are a teacher/coach, that just ain't really possible...no matter how you try to twist it, the new change sucks for some of us!


First, EVERY day I spend "guiding"/hunting is a day taken off from my 'real' job. I CHOSE to use my vacation time during this time of year. I work 60+ hours a week year round, not 9 months a year, so that I get the time *I CHOSE* to spend hunting. I don't look for others to blame for *MY* circumstances, because I am NOT a victim.

Second, I thought you/HOGAN were all about recruiting young hunters into the hunting fold. Now I see differently.  I see some hunters worried ONLY about themselves, the rest be damned. These season dates benefit a whole lot MORE than "25" Mr HOGAN. How many archers hunt the any-bull areas? How many archers LIKE to hunt deer and elk at the SAME time? How many LE hunters apply for units other than their preferred unit due to the competition with spike hunters? How many LE hunters are glad they get an extra 5 days to hunt in 2008? *AND MOST IMPORTANT; HOW MANY YOUTH HAVE JUST GAINED AN EXTRA WEEKEND TO ARCHERY HUNT ELK?*

HOGAN says he wants the archery dates pushed further into September, what archer doesn't? DUH!!!! How, is the $50,000,000.00 question. There is this seven story tall dragon called the LE any-weapon hunt in the way, good luck slaying him. :roll:

HOGAN apparently has graduated from the wyo2ut school of hyperbole with his use of *MADE UP* success rates for LE archers and spike archers. Get the FACTS before spouting numbers. _(O)_


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

uh oh he called me MR. Hogan. That is trouble. My #'s are not far off, they are example #'s and vary unit to unit. We have our bet for the success rates. Then one of us will be able to "spout". :wink:


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

And about the 50,000 dollar question, I would be willing to wear orange if that is what it takes. Or we can move that hunt out of the rut like we have planned, either way, it will be better. Give the LE hunters the first 5 days to themself.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

HOGAN said:


> uh oh he called me MR. Hogan. That is trouble. My #'s are not far off, they are example #'s and vary unit to unit. We have our bet for the success rates. Then one of us will be able to "spout". :wink:


Your numbers ARE way off! LE archery success rates are NOT *50%*, in 2006 (newest data available) LE archery success rate was *35%* and it has averaged *14.6%* LOWER on the spike units than the other LE units, while the success rates for muzzy/rifle hunts are nearly the same spike and regular units alike.

We tried to get the archery extended a week on the any-bull areas, and made it clear archers would be willing to wear orange, and it was shot down. Mainly because of the FALSE perception that archers get too many 'perks' already. :? You need a better 'plan' than just being willing to "wear orange".

Who benefits from the rut more, mature bull hunters or BABY elk hunters? Think about it!


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I or we do have a "better" plan it is I400.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Who benefits more mature hunters with a high powered rifle or baby elk hunters? If we are talking archery cows get thrown into that pot too. I would probabley shoot a cow if gave the option between a spike and cow. The #'s were 35% last year? That is pretty low it seems they were higher the previous years. We will have to take 5 year average for our bet, on the units effected only.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

wileywapati said:


> Joey I've had my ear practically ripped off on the elk date change. I ain't got much of an option but to try and get this un-done at next years bucks and bulls RACs.
> 
> I stood and _*personally *_ supported this idea and have since been told
> that it ain't what is in the best interest of the majority of bow elk hunters.


It sounds as if Wyo2 and I are not alone.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

HOGAN said:


> Who benefits more mature hunters with a high powered rifle or baby elk hunters? If we are talking archery cows get thrown into that pot too. I would probabley shoot a cow if gave the option between a spike and cow. The #'s were 35% last year? That is pretty low it seems they were higher the previous years. We will have to take 5 year average for our bet, on the units effected only.


1)I400 is *FIVE* LE units, what about the others? :roll:

2)What does "high powered rifles" have to do with ANY of this? :?

3)The 35% was last year, and you *CANNOT * use a "5 year average" because the LE archery hunt has only been in existence since 2004. The 'trend' has been a steady DECREASE since the first year across the board. Spike success rates have ALWAYS been low for archers. I don't see moving the season dates by *FIVE DAYS* affecting spike/cow hunter success rates, but it WILL increase the enjoyment for MANY hunters. Those who hunt both deer/elk at the same time will benefit from this, those who hunt the any-bull areas will benefit from this, those who draw a LE archery tag for a spike only unit will benefit from this. Of course you/wyo2ut/Gordy can find others unhappy with the changes, but we found MANY that were unhappy with the way it was. I can promise there is no 'solution' that will make everybody happy. You of all people, with the I400 proposal, should understand that. If you/Gordy attempt to move it back to the 'old' dates, do you really believe everybody would be happy? If you change the dates for rifle hunters, do you think everybody will be happy? If so, I want whatever you are sniffing! _(O)_


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

One more thing "Mr HOGAN", if the DWR gets their way, which will make wyo2ut extremely happy, and implements statewide spike hunts, what is *YOUR* solution to every LE archery elk hunter now competing with spike hunters on EVERY LE unit? One thing I expected from you was seeing the big picture and not just your own little world.  UBA has to consider ALL archery elk hunters, not just a select SMALL percentage of them, we also have to look down the road at the cause/effects of policies in play today and potential policies down the road, when we support/resist proposals. If Gordy truly is serious about trying to "undo" this at the bucks and bulls RAC's, he will SURELY divide archers and have two archery groups on opposite sides, does he really think that is in "the best interest" of ALL archers in Utah? I sure don't!


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

1-I400 is 5 units to begin with, if it proves to be as effective as we think it will hunters will get more units implemented. My solution for LE hunters competing against spike hunters is nothing. Matter in fact that is one of the genius thing about I400. The more competing the lower the success rate, the lower the success rate the more tags we could give out. Competing is a good thing.

I personally hunt the Wasatch for deer so those 5 days lost at the end of the elk hunt are big to me. But as you pointed out it is not about me, it is about a majority of hunters. The majority of hunters have not spoke up. Since we have started this discission it has been about 50/50. Maybe a poll would be in order? While I agree it is not best to divide archers, I also do not think most archers think this was the best solution and would rather keep it the same than cut 5 days from the end of the elk and tak them on to the front. 

2-High powered rifles are the only one's that benefit hunting elk in the rut. Archers and all of their perks get the pre rut. 

3-We can use the average on the units effected since 2004. But we do agree the 5 extra days for any bull areas was brilliant!

4-I400 is on it's way to making 90% of hunters happy. The statewide spike thing is great for buisiness. By the time we are done it will be a land slide. Just a matter of a couple of more meetings and polishing up a few things and would bet my left nut "everyone" will be happy. The LE hunters are the minority, and they benefit most in this plan.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

1)I400 has not been proposed yet. little lone implemented. Let's stick with what we have NOW. You are correct, competition is good, but not when we are talking about people obtaining a "once-in-a-lifetime tag" and having to 'compete' with spike/cow hunters, that by the way rifle/muzzy LE elk hunters do NOT have to 'complete' with. This leads to ugly confrontations that are NOT good for archers in general.

2)Still confused on your 'point' here. :? 

3)Fine.

4)You are way more optimistic than I am. I do believe I400 WILL get implemented, but I do NOT believe anywhere near 90% of the elk hunters will be "happy". LE hunters are the minority? Really? How many elk hunters are there in Utah, and how many of them apply for LE tags? They may get the minority of the tags, but that is because it is LIMITED ENTRY. :roll:


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Gordy has not stated where he stands. He just stated that he has had a lot of complaints about it, in his defense. I don't want to put words in his mouth.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> If Gordy truly is serious about trying to "undo" this at the bucks and bulls RAC's, he will SURELY divide archers and have two archery groups on opposite sides, does he really think that is in "the best interest" of ALL archers in Utah? I sure don't!


Uh..., right. Because this season change has obviously brought us all together. :roll:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > If Gordy truly is serious about trying to "undo" this at the bucks and bulls RAC's, he will SURELY divide archers and have two archery groups on opposite sides, does he really think that is in "the best interest" of ALL archers in Utah? I sure don't!
> ...


Missed my point AGAIN o'mighty 'wise' one. :roll: Having the two archery orgs on opposite sides at the RAC's will help how? Freakin brilliant!


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

PRO, We've got around 10 months to hash this out. Ya know as well as I do that if the legislation is passed unlocking the rifle deer opener that the floodgates are going to swing wide open and these last five days will be the least of our worries.

I've had members from this very board call me and ask where my head was when I supported this proposal. I've had other bowhunters that love to chase grouse while hunting elk
complain that they have lost days that they have had in the past. I've heard the we are moving farther away from the rut complaints. I have heard that by moving the dates closer to the holiday that we are losing quality time when the woods are not as busy. Mostly I've heard that this proposal was put in place to benefit a small handfull of LE tag holders at the expense of the majority of archery elk tag holders.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I say we leave it how it is and drop "the I400 " bomb on em'.


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## LETTER-RIP (Sep 14, 2007)

We need to look at some of the surrounding states. Idaho and Wyoming are not doing so bad. As for the Any weapon hunts on LE. They need to start on the General opener. Why baby those hunters. They are hunting bulls that have little pressure and are grown like cattle on protected land. The rut on the LE should be hunted by guys using Archery equipment. And the spike and cow hunters should be hunting them also. I personaly think that the dates are just set up to benefit the LE hunters only.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Missed my point AGAIN o'mighty 'wise' one. :roll: Having the two archery orgs on opposite sides at the RAC's will help how? Freakin brilliant!


You got me, you silver tongued orator you. It just flew right over my head and I done gots me a 6th grade edjacashun, too!

Sooooo...who are these two archery orgs you're talking about now? Let me guess. UBA and BOU? Get over yourself. Fact is, UBA and BOU aren't about to fight and nobody's even hinting that they should - they share members, (Good folks, too. Better than you and me put together.) Meantime, I'm pretty sure BOU has made no plans for next years RAC. We haven't even elected next year's board yet. As for UBA, the members I talked with at the shoot didn't even know that the season shift was a UBA proposal. So it appears this isn't about organizations at all.

No doubt you've shown your ability to get a proposal through the process, or at least parts of a proposal. But as far as unity or the best interests of bowhunters is concerned, I think we can do better in the future. I would hope so, anyway, because there are some great opportunities coming up to do just that.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Ok, so either both sides agree on one or the other or we are divided? Makes sense to me, but why is it both sides need to agree with the change that was made? Door swings both ways.

I like the change, but I think there needs to be some other issues considered and lobbied for. Such as pushing the rifle out of the rut, extending archery seasons in any bull units and finding out EXACTLY what hunters want. I hear all the time on here and other venues about "I've talked to a bunch of people who love it" or "Everyone I talk to hates the change".

All of this is speculation without some kind of hard numbers to back up the opinions of proponents for each side, is just he said/she said until there is some way to find out what hunters _really_ want. Once this is established, wouldn't they (the powers that be) be obligated to make changes accordingly, as long as it is biologically sound??


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Elkhuntingfool said:


> With how the DWR f-ed up the last proposal that was before them, I'd hate to see how they take I-400 and chop the crap out of it and everyone is screwed. DWR Mgt couldn't find their arses with a map and flash light.


In defense of the DWR, they didn't have much to do with what the final product looked like, that was the RAC's and the Wildlife Board.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Elkhuntingfool said:
> 
> 
> > With how the DWR f-ed up the last proposal that was before them, I'd hate to see how they take I-400 and chop the crap out of it and everyone is screwed. DWR Mgt couldn't find their arses with a map and flash light.
> ...


This is true. As a whole, They seem like a fairly short sided bunch from my experience.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wileywapati said:


> Joey I've had my ear practically ripped off on the elk date change. *I ain't got much of an option but to try and get this un-done at next years bucks and bulls RACs*.
> 
> I stood and _*personally *_ supported this idea and have since been told
> that it ain't what is in the best interest of the majority of bow elk hunters.


Thought I would post this for finnegan, since he apparently 'forgot/missed' this, since you posted this:


> Fact is, UBA and BOU aren't about to fight and nobody's even hinting that they should


Gordy, if members of UBA were 'clueless' of this, it is because they chose to be 'clueless'. It was posted on several internet forums, it was discussed at several UBA Board meetings, it was discussed at open to the public meetings, it was proposed at the RAC's, it was proposed at the Wildlife Board meeting. For people to imply this was done in the "dead of night" or somehow was passed under the radar is simply NOT true. I personally posted on THIS forum and asked for feedback, the author of this thread said *NOTHING*, now he has chosen for whatever reason to stir it up, and to call into question my integrity, which I do NOT appreciate!

I still stand by opinion that those opposed are thinking only of themselves and not ALL archers, including the youth who have just *GAINED more OPPORTUNITY *by getting an extra weekend to hunt elk.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

now he has chosen for whatever reason to stir it up, and to call into question my integrity, which I do NOT appreciate!

i think not. You are taking this crap to seriously. We are all on the same side, just see things in a differenent light. You have all ready got this passed, well done! Not a bad thing and i am interested in how things turn out, i just see things different. But keep your eye on the golden ring. We are still on the same team. :wink: 

:? <-----------???? and I never give one of these.???


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I take it serious because I put a lot of time and energy into getting this through, so your **** skippy I take it serious. :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? How's that?

Nothing more annoying than Monday morning QB'ing. _(O)_


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

You two are just like the little sisters I never had. _*QUIT IT YOU TWO!!!*_

PRO I personally appreciate the work that you and Jerry put in to this idea. Also keep in mind that you can't please everybody. Ya just can't. Won't happen. Bring your supporters and
facts to next years public input process and we'll let the higher up's decide this. It's all we can do. Not worth getting personal or worse yet taking this personal.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> wileywapati said:
> 
> 
> > Joey I've had my ear practically ripped off on the elk date change. *I ain't got much of an option but to try and get this un-done at next years bucks and bulls RACs*.
> ...


Typical, if it is not in alignment with your line of thinking, then everybody else is being selfish. It is getting old!!

Now in Pro's defense, he did post this up everywhere and many people said nothing, but good things about it until it came out.

Like wileywapati said I also appreciate the work and passion you put in, but you are just going to make enemies with your me against the world attitude. JMO.


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