# Improving Utah Any Bull Units



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

How could the Any bull units be better managed for a general elk hunt here in utah, like our deer hunt? It would be nice to have some general units with better opportunity.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Simple, make most of the state with the exception of a couple key units Open bull units. LE hunting can suck a fart. Do away with most of it and create more opportunity for all.

Also, do away with any gun hunts during the rut. This alone would increase the quality of the herd tremendously.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I am not sure what you mean by better opportunity, but as far as the any-bull unit on Cedar Mountain goes some kind of access program would help. Cedar Mountain is covered by a lot of private property...the any-bull hunt up there is really tough unless you are hunting private land. To make it a better hunt for more people some kind of walk-in access program would be needed where the DWR works with private landowners and compensates them in exchange for public access much the same way this has been done with fishing access on a lot of streams. Not sure it would work, though. Those private property owners are already selling hunting rights for pretty good money...I don't think the DWR could match it.

The only other real option would be to change a lot of LE units to any bull and kiss all the trophy bulls good bye. Personally, I don't think that is such a bad thought!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> The only other real option would be to change a lot of LE units to any bull and kiss all the trophy bulls good bye. Personally, I don't think that is such a bad thought!


Again, put the rife elk hunt in late October with the deer hunt and your problem is solved. Hunting bulls with a gun during the rut is as retarded as it gets. Whats so hard about that?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I like the Anybull hunts as they are and am missing this one for the first time in years. It is a hunt a guy can count on every year and if he is willing to work and be smart then the chance of success is not that bad. As for quality, I measure that in the time I spend afield with the chance of harvesting an animal. Inches, points, whatever arn't that important. I killed a bigger bull in the UT Gen Unitas than some of the guides' photos we have seen on this site from ltd units. They are there.....


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Simple, make most of the state with the exception of a couple key units Open bull units. LE hunting can suck a fart. Do away with most of it and create more opportunity for all.
> 
> Also, do away with any gun hunts during the rut. This alone would increase the quality of the herd tremendously.


+500000!


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

I'd like to see them drop the age harvest objective on atleast half of the LE units and switch their management to bull/cow ratios. As far as the current anybull units, they need to be left alone. They are currently the only big game tags you can just go and purchase and count on every year. I guess you could maybe switch it to 4 pt or better or something crazy like that. Or like Tex has said move the season to match the deer season, that would be nice for guys with deer tags in anybull units and might make those deer units a little more popular.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

How about a brow tine rule for a bull to be legal? This seems like it might boost the average age of bulls helping with breeding and earlier calves. It would also increase the bull numbers to improve overall sightings and excitement?? I know Colorado has success with this type of thing. Why would it not work here?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Open up more any bull units.


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Open up more any bull units.


Only place to do that is opening le areas to any bull, right?


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Simple, make most of the state with the exception of a couple key units Open bull units. LE hunting can suck a fart. Do away with most of it and create more opportunity for all.
> 
> Also, do away with any gun hunts during the rut. This alone would increase the quality of the herd tremendously.


I am 100% with Tex on this one. Drawing a tag should not be the hardest part of the hunt. I drew a limited entry elk tag this year, but I defnitely dont mind sharing the mountain with other hunters for the opportunity to hunt the same unit again. There are more than enough mature bulls on the unit. It just seems stupid to me that we protect bulls to maturity.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

jasonwayne191 said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > Open up more any bull units.
> ...


Yup. Take parcels of larger LE units and designate them any bull. Parts of the wasatch, Manti, fishlake etc.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Yup. Take parcels of larger LE units and designate them any bull. Parts of the wasatch, Manti, fishlake etc.


Parcels? Why not just open up the whole thing? Remove the LE status of Fishlake, Manti, Panguitch Lake, Monroe...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

PBH said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > Yup. Take parcels of larger LE units and designate them any bull. Parts of the wasatch, Manti, fishlake etc.
> ...


A-FREAKING-MEN! Add in the Cache units, LaSal, the Book Cliffs, and the Boulder as well!

I also agree that moving the general elk to the same time as the general deer would be an excellent move. Colorado......the state the Option 2 guys kept referring to........has 4 deer/elk seasons, NONE of which are held in September...!


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

From what little I know of the way things are here in Utah, I doubt if the major groups would go for any of this. Or am I off target with that thinking?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Wow, I guess I am in the minority here. Yeah I have been putting in for 10 years to get my big bull tag, but I spike hunt every year. I love that the spike hunt lets me get out on the mountain, see lots of elk(due to the current management practices mind), even see some really nice bulls, and if I have luck with me, see/shoot a tasty little spike. I kinda like things just as they are....


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

jasonwayne191 said:


> From what little I know of the way things are here in Utah, I doubt if the major groups would go for any of this. Or am I off target with that thinking?


By Major groups you mean SFW and the wildlife board, right? Which are two in the same... But ya, good luck getting anything like this to happen with the current corrupt, broke, money grubbing system in place right now. :?


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Wow, I guess I am in the minority here. Yeah I have been putting in for 10 years to get my big bull tag, but I spike hunt every year. I love that the spike hunt lets me get out on the mountain, see lots of elk(due to the current management practices mind), even see some really nice bulls, and if I have luck with me, see/shoot a tasty little spike. I kinda like things just as they are....


Can't say that there is anything wrong with harvesting a nice tasty spike and getting out. In my opinion a trophy animal is one that comes from merit. The best hunters who develop and improve their ability and sometimes even the hunters who encounter a little bit of luck should be the ones harvesting the big ones, but right now it seems that the biggest factor in getting a good bull is money....

I am one that will always scream opportunity. Even if I win the lottery and I can pay Mossback to put me on the front cover of every hunting magazine because of the animal that they put me on. I still want to be out with other people and I want the challenge of beating the crowds. Back in the 80's a 300 inch bull or just a regular 6x6 was a monster that had legendary appeal. Now our animals are regulated and the lottery predicts who harvests the bigger animals. Why not give everyone a chance every year and figure out how to kill the smart bulls?


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## The Coach (Jan 23, 2009)

What if the DWR could impliment some type of harvest/hunt restriction? If you harvest a bull then you are restricted from hunting a general unit the next year or two. People may pass allot of smaller bulls knowing they wont be hunting that unit for the next couple years if they do harvest one. I would even propose this on spike only units. Knowing I could have an improved quality hunt every other year or every three years would be worth the wait to me. I'll hunt out of state on the years between if I really feel the need. Or just help another family member with their hunt. I like the LE units but you could impiment this on every unit and provide more opportunity. Kind of a fun topic to brain storm with. I have lots of ideas.

The Coach


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> jasonwayne191 said:
> 
> 
> > From what little I know of the way things are here in Utah, I doubt if the major groups would go for any of this. Or am I off target with that thinking?
> ...


If the system is "broke" maybe they should give out more conservation tags to make more money. :shock:


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

If something were to be imposed that did not allow you to hunt for a year or two if you harvest, how could that be monitored? The only way is if regardless of harvest, you don't get to hunt...NM used to do it that way for rifle hunters years ago.

Take away LE units and open up to hunting. Only way for that to work is to have all elk hunts go to a draw system. Good by over-the-counter spike hunts. Beyond popular belief, UT doesn't have enough elk to do unlimited ES hunts statewide.

My two penny suggestion is to have the LE Rifle and ML hunts move to later in the fall, turn LE units into draw units for all weapon choices with more tags and allow archery to open later and end later (9/1 - 9/25 or something like that). Make the Any Bull units smaller and impose a point restriction on some, not all.

The only way for quality is to sacrifice some quantity.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

make it 4 point or better. the spikers would live for one more year. 

charge more for any bull. 

allow bull or cow but not both.

require hunters to wear bells

limit hunters to three bullets per year


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Just open the whole state up to any bull but you can only have a tag every 5 years. :mrgreen:


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

How to improve any bull units? A great question that not many have answered. The Rut has ZERO effect on the any bull hunt.

I think the best thing that DWR could do for the any bull hunt would be to quit giving out so many cow tags. I agree with those that have said that DWR should generally leave the Any Bull hunt alone as it is one of the few hunts where you can still buy an over the counter tag.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> How could the Any bull units be better managed for a general elk hunt here in utah, like our deer hunt? It would be nice to have some general units with better opportunity.


Opportunity = less quality. Open any LE elk area and it will be destroyed in 1 year.
Reduced to hunting spikes and rag horns......Not going to happen.

The only way to improve current anybull units quality is to restic tags, OR antler restics.
PLUS stop shooting cow in them, increase herd size.

Also, IMHO, of all the general any bull units, only a couple have any 'real' potential.
The Unitas being on top, but 1,600+ cow permits on the south slope and 200+
on the North side keep the elk verily suppressed .

Units like the Henrys, with an estimated heard of 20, 
(DWRs total estimated herd size is 20 :!: :shock: )
IMO should NOT even be a huntable unit they sell tags for .
If ZERO elk are wanted there , they should be declared 'nuisance' shot on sight,
any time, no license required......That would fix the problem!

Other similar any bull units are the West desert, estimated herd size of 60,
San Rafael , estimated herd 60.
Pine valley , estimated herd of 50.

Bottom line, The any bull units in Utah are a total joke!
Not worth wasting any time on , JMHO.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Another side note:
Just noticed the general any bull units DID NOT sell out this year, still some available.

First time ever I can recall....

If hunters stop buying them, the any bull units will go away for sure.


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## desertcathunter (Oct 6, 2012)

I think every elk unit in the state should be a LE unit. This would add one third more elk permits. On top of this take the rifle elk LE out of the rut. Give archery deer hunters two weeks, then LE archery elk hunters two weeks of the rut. A week break then one week of muzzloader deer and LE elk. Put the LE elk hunt simultanious with the rifle deer hunt. Eliminate the late season LE elk hunt. Quit killing cow elk and spike bulls and give out more big bull permits. Give some units a break until they were all producing big bulls. If you need to limit elk numbers every third year have a cow/spike hunt on winter range.

You have effectively given 1/3 + more hunters a chance at a LE bull while taking pressure off animals and giving all hunters a fair chase opportunity. You would have more 400 bulls, less stressed animals and happier hunters.


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## desertcathunter (Oct 6, 2012)

the biggest problem with any wildlife/hunting issue is not finding a real solution, it is making that solution fit the budget the DWR wants. We are offering too many hunts, issuing too many premits.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Good grief! These are ANY BULL UNITS! Over the counter tags! Why the he!! change it to MORE LE??? We have too many now. I agree with packout, leave it alone or get rid of some LE units and make em any bull.... I'll go take a cold shower to cool off now, this LE crap just pizzes me off!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Welcome to the show desertcat, Nice first post!
I agree.. :O||:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Opportunity = less quality. Open any LE elk area and it will be destroyed in 1 year.
> Reduced to hunting spikes and rag horns.


Goofy's been in the glue again...

One year? You're high! Stop rifle hunting during the rut! Period! Name me ONE other state that allows rifle hunting in 75% of their prime elk country through the peak of the rut? You cant, because no other state does this. You know why? IT'S LAME! When hunting becomes more about a select lucky few people enjoying 85% success having hunted for an average of two days instead of many people hunting for a week or more and having a normal 25% success on the same quality of bulls, hunting is dead. Money, greed and the all mighty quest for a 400 bull will be the end of hunting as we know it. LE hunting is evil. :evil:

I cant figure out for the life of me why this is so hard to understand.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

And your rediculous tex I would much rather have greater quaility rather than opportunity our elk herds can't handle. I meant more like cutting general elk tags for any bull units and managing for more elk but setting spike and any bull hunts up like the deer hunt splitting them into units you have to draw on. Go in the hills right now and you should quickly notice that if you opened all units up there would be nothing left within a few years. Just go take a ride on the mountain and check out all the spike hunters... Ya let me tell you if they could shoot any bull they wanted it would probably take about 2 years during the rut or not. But I can agree on that take all hunts out of he rut.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > Opportunity = less quality. Open any LE elk area and it will be destroyed in 1 year.
> > Reduced to hunting spikes and rag horns.
> 
> 
> ...


^^^^^^^^^^^^Who's "high on glue" ????^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Even if they moved the LE elk rifle hunt OUT OF THE RUT....

Open ANY LE ELK UNIT to a general hunt , and it's DESTROYED in 1 to 2 years.

Pick any one LE elk unit and try it TEX...make it a general any bull hunt,,,AND,

You would to see the RAC and Board Meetings over-packed with pizzed of hunters!!
That, my friend, would be complete DWR suicide :!:,,, and they know it.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Oh, so you just wanna pick ONE unit to test it on huh? That makes sense. Turn the whole state loose on the Dutton for a season ans see what happens. :roll: Doesn't take a rocket scientist like yourself to figure that one out. 

Open the whole state, eliminate rifle rut hunting, and sell X amount of tags to a LOT more people. That spreads everyone out and makes the hunt more family oriented again. Those big bulls will survive, they're smart and know how to hide.

And for you trophy hunting, chest pounding, "gotta shoot a 400 bull or nothing" kinda guys, leave the Monroe, West Desert, and San Jan units as trophy LE units. 

Goofy, I should know better that to argue with a self proclaimed local authority who suffers from SFW disease like yourself. It only makes you mad and frustrates me. Besides, I'm just a bird stuffer, what do I know?


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## RuttCrazed (Sep 7, 2007)

What do surrounding states do? Colorado has a lot of elk, Arizona has monster elk........

Rut


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Colorado's also has LE hunts but they are not called that. There are units that will take 15-20 years to draw a tag and then there are units that you can buy a OTC tag every year. But Colorado uses preference points for their draws and you will never see a hunter with 0 points draw a tag in any unit that requires a few points. 

Arizona is totally LE if you want to call it that.


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## Uni (Dec 5, 2010)

Colorado does it the best. Why should someone that put in for 2 years draw a tag over someone who has put in for 15? It's asinine. Or just do what New Mexico does and don't have points at all.


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## DarKHorN (Mar 4, 2012)

Option 2 for elk.. Do away with statewide archery, spike only and open bull areas. The state becomes 30 LE units. You will have your top units that take 20 years to draw and a bunch of units that draw every other year.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

No need to "fix" something that doesn't need fixed. I've been on a few LE hunts and they were amazing! However, nothing will beat my first anybull elk on the northslope and my first spike on the Manti. I love how they run the spike/anybull units.

That being said, I lean closer to opening other "LE" units to anybull status. I also support moving around season dates for LE units and giving out more tags in general.

Carryon!


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Uni said:


> Colorado does it the best. Why should someone that put in for 2 years draw a tag over someone who has put in for 15? It's asinine. Or just do what New Mexico does and don't have points at all.


A no point system is not all it's cracked up to be. The people that think it's fair seem to draw every or every other year. I've hunted deer twice in the last 11 years...

CO has a ML hunt in the middle of Sept for the draw units.

Everyone so far has touched on the "solution" on what's best - now if it can all be put together. I still say move rifle and muzzleloader to later, keep quality now units as draw, archery the whole month of Sept (success will still be below 20%), point restriction on Any Bull Units (let unsuccessful in the draw have first dibs on OTC purchase, since draw units would increase the number of tags anyway). It wouldn't take long to increase the amount of bulls in open units doing this.

This would mirror CO, their elk are doing just fine.

That's my Nobel Prize suggestion.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

DarKHorN said:


> Option 2 for elk.. Do away with statewide archery, spike only and open bull areas. The state becomes 30 LE units. You will have your top units that take 20 years to draw and a bunch of units that draw every other year.


How can someone draw "every other year" when there is a FIVE YEAR WAIT after drawing? :?



goofy elk said:


> Open ANY LE ELK UNIT to a general hunt , and it's DESTROYED in 1 to 2 years.
> 
> Pick any one LE elk unit and try it TEX...make it a general any bull hunt,,,AND,
> 
> ...


 I guess your definition of "destroyed" is far different than mine...... Last I checked, Colorado has the bulk of the state under 'general season', and they KILL more elk in any given year than Utah has living at any given time. They have a FEW units managed for 'quality' to satisfy those who measure success by B&C scores, the rest of the state is managed for maximum opportunity. All this hyperbole over "ANY LE ELK UNIT" being destroyed highlights why game management in this state is so pathetic. We have 'sportsmen' throwing out bogus claims that have NO scientific backing, and are completely dependent on scare tactics and outright LIES. It is discouraging and disgusting to see such shorted-sighted views being pushed by so-called 'sportsmen'.


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## Uni (Dec 5, 2010)

proutdoors said:


> DarKHorN said:
> 
> 
> > Option 2 for elk.. Do away with statewide archery, spike only and open bull areas. The state becomes 30 LE units. You will have your top units that take 20 years to draw and a bunch of units that draw every other year.
> ...


This is humorous.

Simple fact: Colorado has better habitat and more acreage for elk. Hence they have more elk.

How about we start a thread on why Utah has more elk than Nevada. Must be because Nevada is terrible at managing their elk herd right?


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## DarKHorN (Mar 4, 2012)

proutdoors said:


> DarKHorN said:
> 
> 
> > Option 2 for elk.. Do away with statewide archery, spike only and open bull areas. The state becomes 30 LE units. You will have your top units that take 20 years to draw and a bunch of units that draw every other year.
> ...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Question was 'Improving Utah any bull units' ..

Answer, the way to improve the current any bull units is:

1) Reduce permits 

2) Use antler restrictions

3) Stop antlerless hunts, and grow overall herd size


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Uni said:


> This is humorous.
> 
> Simple fact: Colorado has better habitat and more acreage for elk. Hence they have more elk.
> 
> How about we start a thread on why Utah has more elk than Nevada. Must be because Nevada is terrible at managing their elk herd right?


You missed the forest AND the trees! I never hinted at implying Colorado has more elk due to how they manage hunters. Goofy made the assertion that opening up LE elk units would "destroy" the herds. I merely PROVED that was a false and nonsensical assertion! So, lets get back to reality, shall we?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Question was 'Improving Utah any bull units' ..
> 
> Answer, the way to improve the current any bull units is:
> 
> ...


I wonder what the desired 'improvement' is. If it is merely antler size, your 'solutions' could help. Although, #3 only will work if the area will support more elk. The GS units on the Wyoming and Idaho borders have legal issues to overcome. Many of the elk residing in Utah during hunting season reside in other states during the crucial winter/early spring, thus mandating those states have a major say in the herd populations, like it or nor.

I strongly OPPOSE reducing permits for GENERAL SEASON deer/elk hunts! If the desire for antler size is so high, restrict YOURSELF to the premium LIMITED ENTRY units! Just a thought.......


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

You can't stop all antlerless hunts. Responsible management is also harvesting a few females, regardless of species. 

That's what makes biological sciences so challanging. You take hard core science principles and try to apply it to something with multiple unpredictable variables.


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## Yahtahay (Jul 3, 2008)

To answer the original posters question....Stop rifle hunts during the rut! Immediately we'll see a huge improvement when the **** bulls aren't love crazy dumb and being taken out by hunters shooting at 300-500 yards! I'll never understand why archery hunts end typically one week before the autumnal equinox (Sept. 22), and rifle elk opens the first weekend of October!? Rifle hunts during the rut are an absolute JOKE!

Also, why can't archery hunts and muzzleloader hunts coincide? Or even rifle/muzzleloader coincide?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^ Yahta, The only hunt held on the GS any bull during the rut is the youth hunt^^^
And that's only 300 permits , kids under 18 , state wide,, It's a NON issue here..


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I'm selfish like the other guy's here who have had their OIL elk hunt. And lets do away with LE elk hunting. Further I propose a 365 day statewide season that only costs $5. Or better yet a $50 bounty to keep their numbers way down. Elk habitat is in good shape right now and modern day wildlife biology says if habitat is good then hunting or predation has little effect. 


I hate elk! I heard they are mean to deer and they attract wolf.

And a tip of the hat to pre settlement aspirations. Early explorers of the U.S. note that elk are plains animals. Lets return the elk to the plains like they were before all these evil white men arrived.

Back to avoiding the elephant in the room. :roll: :lol:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I hate to admit it, but I kind of agree with Goofy on this...if we were to open all or most of our LE areas up to unlimited elk hunting, we would really put a big hit on the "quality" of those hunts. But, with that being said, if we were to somewhat limit hunters similar to the extent we limit deer hunters on general season hunts, it could work. If we were to move the rifle hunt to coincide with the general rifle deer hunt and force hunters to pick their units, it may work....

....personally, though, the last thing I want is for every single Utah big game hunter out in the woods at the same time. I really think that would ruin the "quality" of my hunt regardless of the size of animals out there!

I say leave things as they are with the exception of maybe giving out a lot more LE tags and maybe opening up a couple of the bigger units--like the Fishlake or Manti--to open bull and only increasing the open-bull tag numbers slightly from what they are now.


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## Yahtahay (Jul 3, 2008)

> ^^^ Yahta, The only hunt held on the GS any bull during the rut is the youth hunt^^^
> And that's only 300 permits , kids under 18 , state wide,, It's a NON issue here..


By date you mean...the elk are rutting as we speak but yet the rifle hunt is taking place now. I get that we can never get the date of the rut exactly correct but why give rifle hunters with better success ratios, open season on elk that are still breeding? As archers we are lucky to see any rutting activity the last week of the hunt, mid-September. Rifle hunters on the other hand are not only witness to the rut but have higher harvest ratios obviously, hence larger impact on quality and/or herd sizes.

And again, why can't elk and deer rifle hunts coincide? Why can't muzzleloader and archery coincide?

Bottom line, archery should be during rutting times, not rifle, nor muzzleloader.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Yahtahay said:


> > ^^^ Yahta, The only hunt held on the GS any bull during the rut is the youth hunt^^^
> > And that's only 300 permits , kids under 18 , state wide,, It's a NON issue here..
> 
> 
> ...


I'd rather see all of the hunts out of the rut instead of allowing one group to have it all. But the masses want the rifle during the rut. To me this is a social issue that in my opinion would be tough to change.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm with several of you guys, I don't think opening all or a majority of the LE units to anybull would be a great move. However, I do think subdividing them to match the deer units, moving the rifle out of the rut, and switching some of those subdivided units into bull/cow management instead of age objective there would be a lot more variety in options for hunting elk in this state. Maybe leave a few premium tags during the rifle for those super special guys that need to hunt during the rut with a rifle to get it done, they can wait their 30 years to do it. Move the rifle out of the rut and the success rate will drop allowing a slight increase in tags. Improving things in other ways as well.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Another side note:
> Just noticed the general any bull units DID NOT sell out this year, still some available.
> 
> First time ever I can recall....
> ...


They also gave out a ton of cow permits, I personally think this is the reason you didn't see these tags sell out. Next year when they cut cow permits back again, they will sell out again.

I think most are forgetting why they gave out so many cow tag permits this year. First batch was due to several of the units have skyrocketing populations that will blow by objective. The cow permits were given so that they didn't blow past objective. The second batch was given due to the fires and drought conditions.


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## KennyC (Apr 28, 2010)

PBH said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > Yup. Take parcels of larger LE units and designate them any bull. Parts of the wasatch, Manti, fishlake etc.
> ...


I agree, why do we protect the Elk for record size? If the state wants LE then that is fine but an entire mountain range, Uh that is retarded. My brain I see that the more vast areas to hunt the less people you will see and that equals better hunts. Yes that does mean certain areas will see large groups for a while but that is part of change. If you are going to section off an area to any group of people it should be for disabled hunters. They are the ones that can't hike 20 miles. If you go to Red Cloud loop there are ATV trails that go straight through large meadows. WHY! The bottom line is that the state is banking on low harvest and millions of dollars every year for hunting. The bigger the bulls the more out of state money comes in mean while we are stuck hunting near unethical and unsafe hunters. You can't hunt if off in the distance there are ATV screaming around the mountain all day. We were 5 miles from the nearest trail and we could still hear them. I don't want to give up and I love hunting but this year has really got me thinking. I also think that the archery hunt that starts in Aug is the most retarded thing I have heard of. From the time the first hunter is on the mountain till the end of the season the Elk are only getting a day or two break. This is not conducive to good hunting. 
Start the hunts in Oct and run them through the end of the year. Eliminate the extended archery hunt mix it up and give each group a 3 week window. This would give the Elk almost 2 full weeks between each group and allow them to get into a routine instead of an evasive strategy for 5 months. Yes, I am venting so feel free to bash me for my thoughts. Its not like I have the power to change anything so you have nothing to worry about.  o-||


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Well said. UT is the only state I've heard of that has firearm hunting during full swing of the rut - regardless of low numbers of tags for draw units...

I'm used to hunting till late Sept with archery. First rifle hunts don't even start till this weekend in NM or CO.


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## utaharcheryhunter (Jul 13, 2009)

I totally agree.. I am used to Arizona elk hunting. The units are smaller like Wyoming. And some even have smaller units within units. ( why not split some LE units in half? Some of them are huge)
One huge thing that Arizona has that should be here in Utah is that you can only have one elk tag a year. Cow or bull.. I have many friends that put in for Cow elk permits every year just to get out and hunt, and get some meat. That would make you choose, and it makes a huge difference in drawing a bull tag. You could draw a good area in 5 years.. and if I don't draw, then I always purchased a leftover tag.
Rifle hunts come after the rut, so archery is in Sept. They even have archery hunts in december for their late hunts. And I didnt care that I would have to wait 2 to 3 years to draw to draw a arizona bull tag.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Pretty sure this all was suggested as I400!!!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Shoot me for what I am about to say ....... I dont really care what happens in other states. They have their variables (hunters, habitat, populations, etc.) and we have ours. What works for them will not necesarilly work for us. If you don't like the way we have our hunts here don't hunt or do something about it and get involved in the process.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MadHunter said:


> Shoot me for what I am about to say ....... I dont really care what happens in other states. They have their variables (hunters, habitat, populations, etc.) and we have ours. What works for them will not necesarilly work for us. If you don't like the way we have our hunts here don't hunt or do something about it and get involved in the process.


This thread has been added to by people who hunt UT - so, evidently, what's in place may not be the best way to do something. State Game Departments talk among each other and mirror each other to a point. It's already happening, look at the deer units and draw process. Next it will be the same with elk so get ready. Those talking about it now are the ones whose voices will be heard more than those who sit back in comfort. The reason others may have experience with other states is because they've been forced to look elsewhere for an opportunity to go - they are the ones who have a better idea of what works well and what doesn't. The same thing goes on in other states about how things are done...

Personally, I like some of the things UT does and wish some other states would adopt those things also.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wapiti67 said:


> Pretty sure this all was suggested as I400!!!


**** straight it was!!!


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

Arizona is a great model for Utah to follow IMO. Even if they do want a rifle rut hunt - do it in a few "Trophy" units, not statewide. Let those that want a rifle rut hunt have it -- they'll have to wait for it. 

This has been kicked around a bunch. There are 2 things that will shorten draw lengths and point creep - first is giving out more tags. That can be done by increasing populations, or decreasing harvest success rates. Second, allow for a variety of options and make people choose. Don't allow hunters to put in for general hunts and build points for LE, unless you have undersubscribed hunts - like leftover tags, or in the case of Utah - unlimited archery hunts.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

svmoose said:


> This has been kicked around a bunch. There are 2 things that will shorten draw lengths and point creep - first is giving out more tags. That can be done by increasing populations, or decreasing harvest success rates. Second, allow for a variety of options and make people choose. Don't allow hunters to put in for general hunts and build points for LE, unless you have undersubscribed hunts - like leftover tags, or in the case of Utah - unlimited archery hunts.


Technically, you are correct...increasing populations and decreasing harvest success rates will both shorten draw lengths. Also, if you give people a variety of options and make people choose one of those options without allowing them to buy a general tag and apply for an LE tag, you could possibly shorten draw lengths. BUT, in Utah, if you make people choose between a spike hunt and an LE tag, you won't shorten the draw length, you will increase it and point creep will be much worse! Obviously, a lot of people hunt spikes because they feel that it is their only opportunity. You start making people make that choice, and their will be lots of spike tags leftover and point creep will get much worse! So, if you want to make people choose between a general tag and an LE tag, you better open up a lot more units to any-bull!

Also remember, according to the DWR, Although discontinuing all SPIKE BULL ELK hunts would potentially provide an additional 500 Limited Entry permits. It would only reduce drawing odds from the current odds of 1 in 16 to 1 in 13.5. And, at the same time, elk production would decrease because bull/cow ratios would increase!


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