# Jazz and the Draft



## GaryFish

So, in case you are keeping score here, consider the Jazz ability to assess talent.

In 2011 draft, the Jazz picked Enos Cantor with the #3 pick. 
Spurs Forward and NBA Finals MVP Kawhi Leonard was picked 15th. 
What makes that irritating, is Leonard played his two years of college ball at San Diego State. During that career, he played against BYU and Utah four times in regular season, and against BYU twice in conference tournaments. Jazz need only look in their own front yards to see him. And they took a totally unproven euro player. How is that working out?

In the 2001 draft, the Jazz were looking for a point guard to replace Stockton. They used the 24th pick to select Raul Lopez, from Spain, AFTER he had blown his knee out. That was four picks ahead of Tony Parker, also a euro, who was picked at 28. Parker has now won four titles in San Antonio. 

In the 1999 draft, the Jazz picked Quincy Lewis at 19, Andrei Kirilenko at 24, and Scott Padget at 28. The Spurs got Manu Ginobili at 57th. 

Utah always used the excuse about getting "best player available" because they picked late in the draft for so long. Maybe they just suck at evaluating talent. The Spurs are moving into phase 3 of their on-going dynasty with players the Jazz didn't think were the "best players available." The Spurs are a small market team that win with their ability to draft, develop, and keep talent.

Any bets on this year's draft? Say three years from now - will the Jazz' pick be a significant contributor with their 5 pick? How will he stack up against whoever the Spurs get at 30?


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## svmoose

The spurs have always been great talent graders. However, to compare the 2001 Jazz to today's jazz is a disservice. Actually, even a 2011 Jazz to today's Jazz is a lot different.

Last Summer was the first summer that the Jazz actually did a good job of scouting players. Dennis Lindsey comes from the Spurs organization and I think he brings a lot of good from his experience there. 

Also - Kawhi Leonard found himself in a great position to excel, the spurs are very good at team and system play and he fit into their system perfectly. They are also excellent at player development. 

I really like Burks and think he'd be ahead of where he is now if he hadn't had Corbin as a coach and was stuck playing behind Randy Foye and Richard Jefferson the past 2 years. Had we drafted Leonard, and the Spurs taken Burks, I think we'd be saying the same thing, but the players would be switched. 

I'm looking forward to a new coaching staff and hopefully some better development for the young Jazz guys over the next few seasons.


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## swbuckmaster

The jazz used to be good at picking talent either that or they were good at developing them because for several years they would always have one of the best benches in the nba made up of a bunch of no names.

Now the jazz suck cant find tallent.
I think the players hate the organization and dont play up to their abilities like they would on other teams. I'm lookin forward to a coach to come in and motivate them. Money doesnt seem to motivate them very much. Heck if someone was going to pay me their salaries to play you couldn't keep me out of the gym


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## GaryFish

The Jazz were good at picking talent twice. In '84 and '85. They've been horrific since. And if you're keeping score, it was '86 that Miller bought the team. No number that hangs in the rafters, was drafted by the current ownership.


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## morvlorv

We need to be hopeful that with Lindsey comes a new mentality and a new eye for talent.

The old way for the Jazz was to almost always draft some no name Euro and hope for the best. Fez? Lopez? Kantur? Dragicevic? Pavlovic? Muursepp? Tomic? and the only one that did anything good ol AK-47.
And now headlines of another Russian they are looking at?
Stop looking for players from Europe. haha.

Im sure the Jazz will somehow blow it. 

I say just get it over with and hire Stockton as head coach, and Malone as assistant and call it good. Whatever happens after that is gravy.
No one will care how horrible the jazz are because Jazz nation love Stockton and Malone that much. hahahah

but for reals, Im optimistic of Snyder and Lindsey.
Fingers crossed for a good season.


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## PBH

GaryFish said:


> So, in case you are keeping score here, consider the Jazz ability to assess talent.
> 
> Spurs Forward and NBA Finals MVP Kawhi Leonard was picked 15th...
> 
> In the 2001 draft, the Jazz were looking for a point guard to replace Stockton. ...Tony Parker, also a euro, who was picked at 28. Parker has now won four titles in San Antonio...
> 
> In the 1999 draft, ... the Spurs got Manu Ginobili at 57th.


In 2011 Kawhi Leonard was picked 15th -- which means there were a bunch of other teams that also passed on him. It wasn't only Utah that screwed that pick up. Further, Indiana picked him and then traded him! Utah also took Alec Burks at #12. Alec may not have the resume at this point that Kawhi does, but he might in the future.

In 2001 Parker was taken 28th overall. Again, numerous other teams had the opportunity to take Parker before the Spurs. Like Washington, who took Kwame Brown #1. And Chicago who took Eddy Curry. Heck, Jimall Tinsley was taken at #27 by Vancouver! How many of those teams are asking the same question you are?

In 1999 the Spurs took Ginobili at 57. 56 prior picks were made by teams other than the Spurs (including the Jazz) for other players. Other teams selected players like Wally Szczerbiak (#6, Minnesota), Jonathan Bender (#5, Toronto), Trajon Langdon (#11, Cleveland), and Frederic Weis (#15, New York).

This isn't just a Utah Jazz issue of evaluating talent. Every other team in the league blew it with those players.

I'm not saying I agree with the Jazz picks -- Hayward over Paul George?? -- but every NBA team in the league is throwing the craps dice on the draft.


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## Critter

One thing that all those other teams that picked a player in the 50th round of the draft have is a coach that can develop the player to fit into their grand idea of things for their team. Now whether Snyder can do it or not is up in the air, but I wouldn't expect any changes in the next 5 or 6 years.


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## OKEE

I think they will pick the lame kid from Kentucky .


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## GaryFish

I totally get that the draft is voodoo. Absolutely. And it is cheap for me to come in as an internet yay-hoo with a bunch of coulda woulda shoulda after the fact. Yes, many teams passed on players as well. I get that. That is why Jordan went 3rd, or Stockton 13th, or Malone 15th, or whatever it was. It is not perfect. But every once in a while, you'd think they could get one right. As morvlorv pointed out, they seem too excited about euros with "high potential." 

Leonard is a miss that should not have happened though. He played enough college games right here in the Beehive state, that it took very little effort to see how good he was,even then. And different that the Jimmer that he played against at the time, the talents and skills that Leonard has were clearly transferable to the NBA game. His quickness, with 2-3 different quick moves to the basket, and his ability to rebound -just always seems to be in the right place - that extra sense the that the best rebounders have - even a general fan like me could see how good he really was in college. Just frustrating as a Jazz fan. Urrrrgggggg.


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## svmoose

swbuckmaster said:


> The jazz used to be good at picking talent either that or they were good at developing them because for several years they would always have one of the best benches in the nba made up of a bunch of no names.
> 
> Now the jazz suck cant find tallent.
> I think the players hate the organization and dont play up to their abilities like they would on other teams. I'm lookin forward to a coach to come in and motivate them. Money doesnt seem to motivate them very much. Heck if someone was going to pay me their salaries to play you couldn't keep me out of the gym


Agreed, players today vs 20 years ago are soft and entitled. That being said - Sloan was a MUCH better coach that Corbin. He had a system that could make a bunch of role players into a good team. Sloan's pick and roll heavy system is all over the NBA now, maybe the game changed enough and Corbin tried to emulate his system and teams had figure it out, or he wasn't able to keep it going like Sloan did. I really think getting some new blood in to run the team is going to help -- as long as it is the right people.


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## LostLouisianian

svmoose said:


> Agreed, players today vs 20 years ago are soft and entitled. That being said - Sloan was a MUCH better coach that Corbin. He had a system that could make a bunch of role players into a good team. Sloan's pick and roll heavy system is all over the NBA now, maybe the game changed enough and Corbin tried to emulate his system and teams had figure it out, or he wasn't able to keep it going like Sloan did. I really think getting some new blood in to run the team is going to help -- as long as it is the right people.


Corbin was a nice guy but certainly is not NBA head coach material. He was soft on defense, couldn't motivate the guys and much of the time looked disinterested or even lost as a coach sitting on the bench.


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## GaryFish

I'm not sure I'd put it all on Corbin. He was left with a pretty bare talent shelf. Sloan wasn't winning either when he left. No coach, even the greatest coaches, can't win without talent. I look at Pat Reilly. Won titles with the Lakers, staring Magic, Karem, and Worthy. Great talent. He went to the Knicks and got to the finals once with Ewing. Nothing for many years in Miami. Then retired from Miami until they had Wade and Shaq and he saw he could win again. Sloan inherited a team with Malone and Stockton past their sophomore seasons, and rode it for two decades, and when he lost the talent, he lost. 

Talk of Stockton and Malone as coaches is absolutely laughable to me. NEITHER has any NBA or even college coaching experience. As Magic found out, playing if far different than coaching. And I don't consider Malone bringing a couple big guys to his place to work out for a couple of weeks the same as a coaching gig. 

For whatever reason, the Jazz organization stayed incredibly loyal to their talent evaluation system and the loyalty was too blind to realize how crappy it was and too stubborn to admit they sucked at it. At least since G-Miller took over, they let KOC go and brought in Lindsay. And he fire-saled the team last year so this draft will REALLY tell if he was a key to San Antonio, or just a gravy-trainer.


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## Mr Muleskinner

You sound like a great fan to watch a game with Gary. Nothing but optimism.


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## swbuckmaster

Gary you say Sloan lost when Stockton and malone left. Thats not true. You seem to forget boozer and williams had several good years winning for the jazz. They were one good player away from the playoffs. 

Sloan was a good coach. Maybe one of the bests. I think Malone would be a good coach because he has a way of getting players to work. If they wont work hard he will get rid of them or publicly humiliate them into working or retirement. Stockton would be a good coach. Hes as hard as they come and understands the game better than just about anyone.

I dont magic johnson was half as serious as Malone or Stockton. Magic was also surrounded by the best players unlike malone and Stockton.


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## GaryFish

They did have a half decent run with D-Will and Boozer. Seems like they make it to the western conference finals one year with that group. That was a decent team and I agree that they were one player away from a possible finals run with the group. But you are forgetting the years after the statues, but before they drafted D-Will. They had no solid talent, and it showed. The drafted D-Will - which was a great pick. Then they stole Boozer from Cleveland when Boozer lied to them - which I will credit was a good GM move by O'Conner. 

I'd agree that Sloan was in deed, a great coach. One of the best. But no coach can win without quality talent. When Sloan had it, he won. But when he didn't, he lost. Just like any coach.


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## nocturnalenemy

GaryFish said:


> When Sloan had it, he won. But when he didn't, he lost. Just like any coach.


What about the 2003-4 team that won 42 games, nearly made the playoffs and yet had a roster full of NBA nobodys (except AK). IMO, that was Sloan's best coaching performance of his career. No talent, just outworked everyone else.


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## itchytriggerfinger

There was a rumor that the Jazz would send Favors and #5 this year for #1. Should they do it if Cleveland would accept?


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## Mr Muleskinner

I would in a heartbeat. I am a Favors guy but if/when you have the chance to get a potential superstar you do it.


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## svmoose

Yes, I'd send Favors as well for the #1. Then don't pull a Cleveland -- make sure you get the right guy with the first pick. 

If the Jazz stay at 5, who do you guys think they should draft? I'm leaning towards Aaron Gordon, if Exum is off the board.


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## Mr Muleskinner

I am torn between Gordon and Randle. I really like Randle but the defensive game of Gordon is where I would like to see them go assuming the top four are off the board and no trades.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Hard to believe that we got Exam at #5. Really hard to believe that we got Hood at #23. Unreal IMO. Couldn't have worked out better.


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## svmoose

Ya, great draft...hood is great value. I didn't think we'd be in position for either of those guys without moving


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## nocturnalenemy

Didn't like the Hood pick. Would've rather had Hairston or Capela. Excited to Exum play though.


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## Catherder

I thought the jazz did well also. Exum should be fun to watch and give us flexibility in the backcourt. I liked Hood too, although I was thinking Anderson of UCLA might have been nice too.


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## OKEE

I think they did good on the picks. Now we are one LeBron away from a championship.:first::rotfl:


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## PBH

I'm excited to have Exum. But, there is a serious catch to this pick:

bolerjack.

We're in for a long year with Bolerjack and his trusty side-kick Harpring (kind of like Chester and Spike: 



 )

I can already hear it.

Bolerjack: "The Inferno! And, by Inferno I mean Dante Exum".

ugh. It's going to be a long year....


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## Mr Muleskinner

yea that will definitely get old. I hate that he feels the need to nickname everybody and continue to hoping to get something to stick. I would like to nickname him "terminated"

edit: I have met the guy a few times and coached football against his kids team. Not near as impressed with him as he is.


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> I'm excited to have Exum. But, there is a serious catch to this pick:
> 
> bolerjack.
> 
> We're in for a long year with Bolerjack and his trusty side-kick Harpring (kind of like Chester and Spike:
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> I can already hear it.
> 
> Bolerjack: "The Inferno! And, by Inferno I mean Dante Exum".
> 
> ugh. It's going to be a long year....


Ugh, you would need to bring that up. 

I can also hear it now with the Jazz 2nd pick last night after he hits a big corner 3.

"Rodney's in the Hood, buckle up!"

Any chance we can trade Boler and Harpring to Memphis for the 2027 2nd round pick and the rights to some 1 legged Serbian center that will never play in the NBA?


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## PBH

I pray every year that CBS will give Bolerjack a permanent position doing football for some obscure medi outlet....


.....but he keeps coming back. I don't understand -- I'd imagine if Greg Miller ever had to watch a game on TV he'd figure it out and trade those two for the third best "Bruno" to ever come out of Switzerland.


I honestly think that Bolerjack ruined Harpring. Harpring had potential, but pairing him with Bolerjack just threw all that potential out the window. It's sad that we watch and make comments like "Boone is better than these two..."


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## Mr Muleskinner

I had a conversation with Hotrod once about Bolerjack. It was priceless.


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## HighNDry

Jazz have nothing. New kids will want out before they mature enough to do anything for the team. Going down is the only move they'll make for years. But, hey they are pretty smart by milking you all along with the talk of the "youth movement." It's just a way to buy time as they stink up the league.


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## Mr Muleskinner

thanks for the insight HighNDry. Since you are apparently in the know and above being snookered like the rest of us fools what team have you sided with? Diehard Spurs fan?


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## GaryFish

So the VooDoo is in place. A top 5 pick should not be a project. A top 5 pick should contribute right away, and make a difference. Time will tell now if any of San Antonio's VooDoo magic followed Lindsey to Utah. It has to be better than drafting Raul Lopez.


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## swbuckmaster

Lopez was a dud


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## HighNDry

Mr Muleskinner said:


> thanks for the insight HighNDry. Since you are apparently in the know and above being snookered like the rest of us fools what team have you sided with? Diehard Spurs fan?


I don't follow the pros much anymore, just like to stir the pot with all the Jazzers. It used to be fun when the players played the game for the game and not so much for all the hype, accolades, and money. I mostly follow college now. Last time I was into the pro scene was clear back when Bird Played for Boston. I've never really picked a pro team to follow consistently.

I did pick the Washington Redskins when I was 13 for my pro football team. I used to love to watch pro football, but it seems to be fake too. Now, the Redskins are being pressured to change their name. I guess after following them for 43 years, I can jump ship if they change the name.


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## brookieguy1

I always kind of liked Harpring but Bolerjack is a clown. I really think he's jealous of Matt's flowing locks. Some new announcers would be welcome indeed.
I like Exum. Hope he stays humble even if he reaches superstardom and will stick with the Jazz. Time will tell. We need a major upgrade in the Jazz's image.


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