# I'm Speechless



## Dodge360 (Nov 2, 2014)

Long story short: After getting into some quail up north with my father, I almost threw my new mossberg 500 20 guage into the river and left it... 

Long story: I went from shooting a 12 guage O/U where I could nock down pratically any quail within 35 yards to missing every single shot today with my new 20 guage. I even missed 5 straight away shots at 10-20 yards!!! On one of those 5 easy shots, the quail flushed up and I shot at it at about 12 yards and feathers flew but the quail keep beating it wings and flew up and over a few small ridges(about 200 total yards)

Is it the small guage/pay load that is keeping me from killing/hitting the quail?

12 guage shells were: winchester 1 1/8 Oz load of #7.5

20 guage shells were: federal high brass 7/8 Oz load of #7.5

I'm contemplating on selling my O/U 12 guage and my new 20 guage, pooling the money and adding a bit to it and most likely buying a nice 12 guage O/U and a super cheap, used 12 guage pump for ducking hunting... or should I stick it out and try to see if I can get used to the 20 guage?

Any thoughts? Thanks for taking the time to read this and help me out!


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I have a mossberg 500 A and I love the gun. It is a 12 guage and I have killed everything from butterflies to 900 Lb Beef cows with the gun. Ducks seem to be my real weakness but that is usually because their flying patterns get the best of me. I guess my question is ... What choke are you using? 

I would stick it out. Usually when you have a lot of misses and the rounds are cycling it is usually user error. Qual can be tough targets though.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Shoot it more, before you decide to get rid of it. I shot the same gun for years, and switched things up with similar results. I ultimately went back to what works. I did the reverse and went from small bore to a big bore, and still experienced the misses.

You get used to all the nuances of a particular gun, things you can't even begin to explain. And as you learn and know all of these things about a particular gun, your muscle memory does the rest. This won't translate into the new gun. Form and practice.

I ran machines for for years, same thing, no two are the same, they have "personalities" that you get to know. Sometimes you never do get to a point where the "relationship" works.


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## Dodge360 (Nov 2, 2014)

Chokes on my guns: 
My 12 guage O/U is: first shot = improved cyl and second shot = modified 

My 20 guage is: modified 

By doing simple math: the 20 guage is shooting 22% less bb's as compared to my 12 guage(ofcourse given that I am shooting 7.5 shot out of both guns)


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

pattern it just to see how it looks. But it coulda just been a bad day. There are times where I can't miss a bird for several consecutive trips and then there's a day where I have no idea what is going on. There was one time I shot a shell across some water just to make sure I wasn't shooting blanks


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## Dodge360 (Nov 2, 2014)

utahgolf said:


> pattern it just to see how it looks. But it coulda just been a bad day. There are times where I can't miss a bird for several consecutive trips and then there's a day where I have no idea what is going on. There was one time I shot a shell across some water just to make sure I wasn't shooting blanks


I seriously thought I was shooting blanks today! lol


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Dodge360 said:


> Chokes on my guns:
> My 12 guage O/U is: first shot = improved cyl and second shot = modified
> 
> My 20 guage is: modified
> ...


But, it only takes 1 or 2 well placed ones.

Patterning is a very good idea, +1 on that.


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## crowfoot (Dec 7, 2014)

Dodge, i would say you are doing everything right but your shot might be a little under gauged. I am running a 20 ga o/u and i found that size 4 steel didn't do anything to the ducks but give them a headache. I had size 4 steel in the first shot and size 2 steel in shot 2. Almost always nothing on the first but smoked 'em on the second. Range: everything from 10-30 yd. I would stick with the modified choke and try size 4 lead (size 2 Steel).


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## Dodge360 (Nov 2, 2014)

Size 4 lead or size 2 steel for quail???


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## richard rouleau (Apr 12, 2008)

Just use 1oz 6s for your 20 gauge that what I use in my 20 and kill ton of quail with that load


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

It's not the bow it's the Indian. The choke designation means nothing. Every tube patterns different loads differently, you need to pattern it. Also fit and practicing shooting the gun are key. If the shots are the range you say they were you had plenty of pellets to work with.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

hamernhonkers said:


> It's not the bow it's the Indian. The choke designation means nothing. Every tube patterns different loads differently, you need to pattern it. Also fit and practicing shooting the gun are key. If the shots are the range you say they were you had plenty of pellets to work with.


But what about the trigger pull?


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## Dodge360 (Nov 2, 2014)

Today, because I was shooting a smaller guage and different type of shotgun, it was my fault I didnt hit the birds... which means I need to pattern and practice with it, but is it worth relearning to shoot with a new gun that I don't exactly like? 

My thought process is why not buy a gun I like and take the time to get good with it


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

"My thought process is why not buy a gun I like and take the time to get good with it"

That works too, patterning and some other advice still applies.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> But what about the trigger pull?


Is he shooting bench rest and needs a crisp 2lb trigger pull?


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Dodge360 said:


> Today, because I was shooting a smaller guage and different type of shotgun, it was my fault I didnt hit the birds... which means I need to pattern and practice with it, but is it worth relearning to shoot with a new gun that I don't exactly like?
> 
> My thought process is why not buy a gun I like and take the time to get good with it


Why have a gun you don't like? If it's cost then just deal and make it work. If not cost find a gun that fits you and you believe in.

By the way, upland and small, light, fast small bores go hand in hand


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

crowfoot said:


> Dodge, i would say you are doing everything right but your shot might be a little under gauged. I am running a 20 ga o/u and i found that size 4 steel didn't do anything to the ducks but give them a headache. I had size 4 steel in the first shot and size 2 steel in shot 2. Almost always nothing on the first but smoked 'em on the second. Range: everything from 10-30 yd. I would stick with the modified choke and try size 4 lead (size 2 Steel).


Over 50 ducks killed so far this year with 5/8 oz load of steel 4 shot from a 28 bore out to 35 yards, might want to check the range your shooting your birds at


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

Sounds to me like it's not shooting where you want it to go.

You need a gun that fits you to be consistent with quail.
Pattern the gun and see if it's going where it's pointing. 

A less important point is the pellet count/pattern density. I'd try eights once I got the above two things ironed out.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

What Hawglips said. A shotgun is not like a rifle where you can adjust the sights to make it point where you are looking. A shotgun needs to point where you are looking. You can make one do that by making adjustments to the gun. A generic gun like the Mossberg is built to fit no one in particular. If your body type is average (or close to it) you have a good chance of getting a factory gun to fit "close enough". If not, you will need to find a gun that fits you, or find a gunsmith that can fit one to you.


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## Dodge360 (Nov 2, 2014)

Loke said:


> What Hawglips said. A shotgun is not like a rifle where you can adjust the sights to make it point where you are looking. A shotgun needs to point where you are looking. You can make one do that by making adjustments to the gun. A generic gun like the Mossberg is built to fit no one in particular. If your body type is average (or close to it) you have a good chance of getting a factory gun to fit "close enough". If not, you will need to find a gun that fits you, or find a gunsmith that can fit one to you.


I completly agree, but I don't even know exactly how to tell if a gun is a good fit. I shouldered my mossberg 500 about 15 times before buying it and I thought it fit and shoulded well, but in the field I struggle to get it to my shoulder correctly which doesn't allow me to look stright down the barrel


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

Dodge360 said:


> I completly agree, but I don't even know exactly how to tell if a gun is a good fit. I shouldered my mossberg 500 about 15 times before buying it and I thought it fit and shoulded well, but in the field I struggle to get it to my shoulder correctly which doesn't allow me to look stright down the barrel


go make a big target and shoot it carefully just to see how that choke looks... and throw on a second target and pull up and shoot at it like you would out hunting to make sure that pattern is going where you think it is. You could be thinking you are dead on but the gun is really pointed a bit high, low, left, right. etc....and then you can go about fitting it to yourself... I know when I shoot my .410 I have to feel like I am shooting high because for me that thing shoots low the way I shoulder it. It also could just be confidence. I know when I've switched golf equipment there is that mental block and it takes awhile. Same thing with a gun. When I've shot my friends guns I hate it and I know it's just a familiarity thing.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Are you wearing the same clothing while hunting that you wore when you were in the store when you purchased the shotgun? It does make a difference. Also practice placing it on your shoulder without firing it and look down the barrel and see if it is level or if you are shooting high, that is my problem. 

I also found that adding a extra bead sight on the rear of the barrel has helped me quite a bit in hitting flying birds.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Practice practice practice. Get a box of clays and case of shells and go out shooting. Put at least 100 shells at some flying clays and get used to the gun. You may end up liking it more than you think. 

If not, then get a new gun. I love love love the 20s. I've always preferred the Remington 870 over the Mossberg as a workhorse pump gun, but that is just me. I've always liked the fit of the Remington better. Just preference. But no matter what you decide, get out and put some smoke through the barrel and blow up some clays before you decide YAY/NAY.


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## Dodge360 (Nov 2, 2014)

I went out last thrusday and shot a box of 20s at clay pigeons and only hit 6 out of 25. Then grabbed by 12 and hit 13 out of 15 pigeons


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Mr Dodge, When you were asking in a previous thread about what gun to buy I gave a little write up about gun fit and I put a link to a write up about gun fit. I wish you would have read it. I will post up the link again, I hope you read it ( and act on it) this time as I think it will help you.

http://www.uplandjournal.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard312a/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=78633

an example:

I have 2 friends that I hunt with quite a lot. One is a great shotgun shooter and always has been. He is of average build and is 6'2 and his stock benelli legacy fits him perfectly and he shoots very well. My other friend struggled with shooting shotguns for years (several models and styles), he always thought he was just a bad shot. Then he read about gun fit. He traveled out to California to a professional shotgun shooting course and gunsmith who measured and fit him for shotgun shooting. When he buys a shotgun he has it made for him and his specifications. A competent gunsmith can do this for any gun. After this course (which pretty much follows the link I sent you) and getting a gun that fit him; his shooting improved by at least 5 fold. Before his chukar to shotshell ratio was 1 to 20, after the course it went to 1 to 3. This proved to me that shotgun fit is paramount to good shotgun shooting. I am lucky in that my out of the box Franchi 48AL fits me wonderfully, and if I miss I know it is me. Good luck


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## Dodge360 (Nov 2, 2014)

Airborne said:


> Mr Dodge, When you were asking in a previous thread about what gun to buy I gave a little write up about gun fit and I put a link to a write up about gun fit. I wish you would have read it. I will post up the link again, I hope you read it ( and act on it) this time as I think it will help you.
> 
> http://www.uplandjournal.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard312a/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=78633
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the info!! I will read it multiple times! I'm sorry I mustve missed your post in my last topic about buying a new gun


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

hamernhonkers said:


> Is he shooting bench rest and needs a crisp 2lb trigger pull?


Just piling on with the rest of the "advice" ;-) ie. it was a joke.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Just piling on with the rest of the "advice" ;-) ie. it was a joke.


Ah I see lol.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

You're just not used to the gun. Go shoot some skeet with it. I would open it up to I/C if you have the option. The 7.5s are fine for quail or ruffed grouse. 12 gage wouldn't have made any difference. You are just off. Make sure your face is down hard on the gun... that's the problem half the time with cold-streaks. The other problem is shooting behind because you stop the gun, which can be easy to do if your new gun is lighter than the old. Go shoot station 4 skeet until you can hit the crossers.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Assuming the gun doesn't have a defect....if it fits you correctly you should start hitting birds right off(or at least as good as with your other guns). I'll bet that gun doesn't fit you at all, not even close. You should never have to "learn" to shot a shotgun, if it fits right, all the missing will be your fault.


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## tigerpincer (Dec 5, 2009)

Just keep shooting the gun and get used to shooting it. I have a friend that only shoots a 20guage. He kills swans, geese, ducks and chukars with it most any year.

I typically shoot a 12 Guage but last year bought a 28 Guage side by side. Took me a short while of shooting clays to get used to the differences but now I've killed doves, quail, pheasants, huns, Ptarmigan and forest grouse with it. I love shooting that gun.


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