# Opinions on keeper panfish?



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

I've wanted to get into some good panfish action for awhile now (in addition to big catfish), so I'm planning on fishing Utah Lake this summer. I don't want to bring a ton home, but I'd like to eat some species I haven't had much exposure to.

As far as I can tell, in Utah Lake I may find (in addition to many more):

1. Bluegill and Green Sunfish
2. Crappie
3. Perch
4. White Bass
5. Piranha

What would you consider to be a good keeper size for each of these species from Utah Lake? I know everyone has a different opinion, but that's what I like about this forum. Thanks for helping someone who doesn't have much experience with this type of thing. As a rough guess, I'm thinking 7" for sunfish and crappie, 9" for perch, 11" for white bass, and any size on the piranha. Does that sound reasonable?


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

I live within spitting distance of Utah lake and honestly I would have a hard time keeping and eating anything that came out of there knowing the pollution that was dumped in there over the last 150 years. Just my personal opinion.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Every once in a while I see a post from someone who is new to fishing UL askng about the pollution and I get up in arms about people saying it's just fine, don't worry about it. It's probably best if you look up the fish advisories and some of the studies on PCB and then make up your own mind on the subject....maybe BEFORE you eat a lot of fish from there because it's supposed to cause cognitive problems in high doses. ;-)


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I know quite a few people that have been eating fish from Utah Lake who are now in their 70's with no ill effects. But it is like any other water, check the health advisories and don't make a steady diet of them.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Critter said:


> I know quite a few people that have been eating fish from Utah Lake who are now in their 70's with no ill effects. But it is like any other water, check the health advisories and don't make a steady diet of them.


Other than them glowing in the dark at night you mean... ;-)


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

LostLouisianian said:


> Other than them glowing in the dark at night you mean... ;-)


Actually I think that you glow in the dark from eating fish from the Louisianian Bayou's. You get extra appendages from eating fish from Utah Lake>>O


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Critter said:


> Actually I think that you glow in the dark from eating fish from the Louisianian Bayou's. You get extra appendages from eating fish from Utah Lake>>O


The bayous are fine, just don't eat anything from the Mississippi River. Pretty much all the waste from industrial and municipal makes it's way down the Mississippi River. There are freaking huge catfish in there but I wouldn't eat one. I've seen 40-60 pounders come out of there regularly. Oh yeah there's just a few nuke plants along the Mississippi so no doubt radiation makes it's way into there too, hence the fish glowing. :grin:


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## fishnate (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree with the health advisories but younger, smaller fish should be reasonably safe for some consumption. They haven't had time to accumulate toxins.

I don't fish Utah Lake but in general my opinion is:
1. Bluegill -- I like to target 7.5" to 9" bigger ones are too bony and hard to fillet. and Green Sunfish are too bony after about 8 inches. Not many get that big.
2. Crappie -- I like 9 to 12 inchers
3. Perch -- I like the 7 to 11 inchers, bigger ones get too bony and hard to fillet.
4. White Bass -- 10 to 14 inches
5. Piranha -- :shock::shock::shock: kill them all, eat what you want.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

fishnate said:


> I agree with the health advisories but younger, smaller fish should be reasonably safe for some consumption. They haven't had time to accumulate toxins.
> 
> I don't fish Utah Lake but in general my opinion is:
> 1. Bluegill -- I like to target 7.5" to 9" bigger ones are too bony and hard to fillet. and Green Sunfish are too bony after about 8 inches. Not many get that big.
> ...


Thanks for the feedback.

I'll refer y'all to this document as a place to get started:

http://fishadvisories.utah.gov/docs/2008/111708_PCBs_in_Utah_Lake_Sediment_Study.pdf

I've looked at this, and other documents, and I'm comfortable eating an occasional panfish from Utah Lake.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Clarq said:


> I've wanted to get into some good panfish action for awhile now (in addition to big catfish), so I'm planning on fishing Utah Lake this summer. I don't want to bring a ton home, but I'd like to eat some species I haven't had much exposure to.
> 
> As far as I can tell, in Utah Lake I may find (in addition to many more):
> 
> ...


First this, then we'll talk about the safety issue.

As for keepers, the answer is whatever size you feel comfortable to fillet. UL has excellent bluegills and you can indeed get some nice meaty ones. 6-7 inches is probably close, but you can get 9-10 inch jumbos too. The crappie have been a little better this year, but are still smaller than what you may get at Willard Bay. 7 inches is probably a good starting point, with some bigger. The whites have mostly been about 10-11 inches long. If you get into them, and want to keep a few, I would say 10 inches and up is about standard. Yellow perch are there, but are somewhat rare. While you may catch one or two, they aren't something you can expect to get a large number of on a regular basis. if you get one, just include it in whatever you are catching.

Right now, the crappie are slowing down a fair bit, the bluegills are biting pretty well if you can find them, and the white bass are also slowing down a bit but are available still around inlets and rocky harbors. Good luck.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Now for UL fish safety, regarding *panfish.* Here are the facts.

1. There is *no* advisory for eating panfish from Utah lake. 
2. The fish in Utah lake have some of the lowest measured mercury levels in the entire state. 
3. A white bass fillet has only one half of the minimum strictest advisory standard for PCB's in it.

Jedediah has seemingly been on a crusade to convince us that we are all going to suffer horrific health problems by eating UL fish. I can't say he was convincing. You can read about it here.

http://www.bigfishtackle.com/cgi-bi..._view=forum_view_collapsed;page=unread#unread

In his effort to say something relevant, he did post an awesome link though that sheds more light on UL fish, the lake itself, and fish eating in general. (and demonstrates that the UL fish are safe :grin

http://fishadvisories.utah.gov/docs/2008/111708_PCBs_in_Utah_Lake_Sediment_Study.pdf

The important points of this link can be summarized as follows.

1.A white bass fillet has 10.2 parts per billion of PCB. This value is *one half* of the minimum advisory level set by the EPA (20 ppb). It is also 8 and 10 times lower than the levels for carp and channel catfish. One half of the minimum standard for white bass is not borderline, it is safe. Bullheads tested even lower.

2. Regarding the bottom sediment study, which is the reason this paper was written, the following is a suitable excerpt for this discussion. Please note the last sentence.

" It was agreed prior to sampling that locations exceeding the ESL of 59.8 ppb would be 
identified as needing additional analysis. However, since all sediment samples are below 
this ESL value, additional sediment analysis is not warranted at this time.* When 
comparing the PCB concentrations of Utah Lake's fish and sediment to other PCB 
contaminated sites, Utah Lake is at least an order of magnitude lower (Figures 3 and 4). *

3. Regarding the different standards for determining fish consumption advisories, (from the conclusions in the linked paper).

" Figure 3 compares the PCB concentrations in carp and catfish from Utah Lake to fish 
collected in the Great Lakes, Hudson River, Delaware Bay, and salmon sold in the 
market. *PCB concentrations in fish from Utah Lake are comparable to those sold in the 
market. Utah Lake's fish are well below the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) safe 
level of 2000 ppb.* The FDA considers PCB concentrations greater than 2000 ppb in fish 
fillets to be a health risk. Additionally, PCBs found in Utah Lake are at least one order of 
magnitude below other contaminated sites including the Great Lakes, Hudson River, and 
Delaware Bay."

This statement explains that UL carp and catfish PCB levels are comparable to fish sold in the supermarket, and much lower than many other well known fisheries. That is carp and catfish. * As we saw earlier, white bass are 8 and 10 times lower than that! *

To paraphrase.

1. A white bass fillet has only 1/2 of the minimum PCB advisory level, set by the EPA. This is the strictest standard. It is an order of magnitude lower than the FDA minimum safety standard of 2000 PPB.

2. Supermarket and restaurant fish are comparable to UL carp and catfish in PCB levels and white bass are 8 and 10 times lower than that!

3. Compared to other fisheries considered contaminated by PCB's, *Utah Lake has an order of magnitude lower level of contamination* in both fish and sediment.

4. I worry about Jedediah's cognitive function well before I'd worry about eating panfish from Utah Lake.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

LostLouisianian said:


> I live within spitting distance of Utah lake and honestly I would have a hard time keeping and eating anything that came out of there knowing the pollution that was dumped in there over the last 150 years. Just my personal opinion.


You have little room to talk, Mr. Louisiana.;-)

http://dhh.louisiana.gov/index.cfm/page/902


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Pretty sure I advised him to read up and make his own choices. To me, the effects of PCB are a valid concern due to the tendency of the chemical to bond to fat, which is the main reason it causes birth defects in the brains of children that were exposed to it as festuses, the brain and surrounding tissues being high in fat.



> 4. I worry about Jedediah's cognitive function well before I'd worry about eating panfish from Utah Lake.


Personal attacks now? Maybe your deep emotional investment in this is due to you not being able to figure out if your own brains have been declining from the fish, or if it's always been that way?


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Catherder said:


> You have little room to talk, Mr. Louisiana.;-)
> 
> http://dhh.louisiana.gov/index.cfm/page/902


Very interesting indeed and full of garbage I might add. My brother has had a camp on Cross Bayou, one of the areas listed, and they eat fish out of there and Saline Bayou complex (another area listed) at least once a week (primarily bass, catfish and crappie). Now let me think...ok they've been doing this for the better part of 35 years and I can honestly say that I haven't seen any effects on him, his wife or their daughter. But hey, I could be wrong, but last time we were there they still seemed coherent, able to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, carry on a conversation and none of them glowed in the dark at night....strange...


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Jedidiah said:


> Pretty sure I advised him to read up and make his own choices. To me, the effects of PCB are a valid concern due to the tendency of the chemical to bond to fat, which is the main reason it causes birth defects in the brains of children that were exposed to it as festuses, the brain and surrounding tissues being high in fat.
> 
> Personal attacks now? Maybe your deep emotional investment in this is due to you not being able to figure out if your own brains have been declining from the fish, or if it's always been that way?


PCB's are some of the nastiest stuff there is and it lasts a long time. Go look up the recommended PPE (personal protection equipment) recommended for PCB and while you're at it go look up an MSDS (material safety data sheet) for PCB too. If that doesn't give you the willies then eat all you want out of the PCB dumping ground known as Utah Lake.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

LostLouisianian said:


> Very interesting indeed and full of garbage I might add. My brother has had a camp on Cross Bayou, one of the areas listed, and they eat fish out of there and Saline Bayou complex (another area listed) at least once a week (primarily bass, catfish and crappie). Now let me think...ok they've been doing this for the better part of 35 years and I can honestly say that I haven't seen any effects on him, his wife or their daughter. But hey, I could be wrong, but last time we were there they still seemed coherent, able to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, carry on a conversation and none of them glowed in the dark at night....strange...


Amazing, that sounds exactly like what several hundred Utah lake white bass and panfish consumers say. Basically word for word. The only difference is that the Utah lake panfish do *not* have a consumption advisory on them.

But, hey, it's all what one wants to believe, right?


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Quote #4 was in direct response to the quote below.



Jedidiah said:


> It's probably best if you look up the fish advisories and some of the studies on PCB and then make up your own mind on the subject....*maybe BEFORE you eat a lot of fish from there because it's supposed to cause cognitive problems in high doses.* ;-)


However, I apologize if it was construed as a personal attack.

As for emotional investment, it is apparent that I am no more or less invested in this than you are. Nevertheless, I do feel any discussion of this nature should be based on facts and have striven to provide them. Folks can decide for themselves, and as I said before on BFT, I personally could care less what an individual decides to do.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

You certainly try hard to talk people into eating Utah Lake fish for not caring. I don't think it's fully safe to eat fish from the place and my empathy for people impels me to speak up. People should at least be aware that the offal is considerably more dangerous than the meat. The facts you selected mostly ignore that. People should read it on their own.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Jedidiah said:


> You certainly try hard to talk people into eating Utah Lake fish for not caring. I don't think it's fully safe to eat fish from the place and my empathy for people impels me to speak up. People should at least be aware that the offal is considerably more dangerous than the meat. The facts you selected mostly ignore that. People should read it on their own.


Seems you are trying equally as hard to convince people otherwise, which was acknowledged above.

I didn't know people consumed fish offal with any regularity. -O,- I'm assuming that's why it wasn't included in the reports. I don't see it as him trying to talk people into eating them, rather a fact based rebuttal of some fear-instilling comments that would lead one to believe that if you eat a bluegill from utah lake you will grow an extra toe on your forehead tomorrow. I don't think this is an empathy issue either. At the very least that empathy seems misplaced. Follow advisories and make decisions based on them. And don't eat fish guts, because that's nasty........


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Catherder said:


> Amazing, that sounds exactly like what several hundred Utah lake white bass and panfish consumers say. Basically word for word. The only difference is that the Utah lake panfish do *not* have a consumption advisory on them.
> 
> But, hey, it's all what one wants to believe, right?


I realize my last post didn't come across quite right. I wasn't bashing or attacking you at all and my apologies if you took it that way. It was meant to show the foolishness of some of the folks at the good ol LA DNR. My brother and his family spend quite a bit of time at their camp on Cross Bayou and rarely eat anything other than wild game and have for years. He kills several deer per year for the freezer (you can kill up to 6 per year), usually gets 3-5 wild hogs per year, quite a few ducks and several dozen squirrels and rabbits then on top of that having the camp on the bayou which is loaded with fish pretty much every time they go to the camp (almost every weekend) they bring home a nice mess of fish. Usually bass and catfish and during the spring, crappie. He has two freezers at home plus one at the camp. Last time we were there we simply walked out into the yard, moved some leaves and picked up a few dozen nightcrawlers then walked onto the pier and caught over 7 dozen catfish in about 2 hours time. We kept enough for two meals and threw the rest back. I understand them putting out an advisory on their lake but it's all a bunch of baloney. Just like people in north LA have been reporting sightings of mountain lions for almost 10 years and the LA DNR says there are none. So last year a hunter took his trail cam to the local newspaper and had them print about half a dozen pictures of mountain lions he had on the cam in North LA. The DNR still to this day is refusing comment on the pictures. Also the DNR has been claiming that there are still not enough of the supposedly endangered LA Black Bear. Out where my brother lives there are tons and people kill 1-2 every year as nuisance bears because the DNR won't do anything....well this year alone in their area there have been 3 different bears come into town! One elementary school had to go on lockdown because there was a mamma bear and 3 cubs walking around on the playground during school! Needless to say now the DNR idiots have to admit there are too many bears and are going to relocate some and open up a limited hunting season as well.

So please, no offense meant towards you it was towards my idiot friends at the LA DNR.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Jedidiah said:


> I don't think it's fully safe to eat fish from the place and my empathy for people impels me to speak up. People should at least be aware that the offal is considerably more dangerous than the meat. The facts you selected mostly ignore that. People should read it on their own.


I would submit that your motivation to vigorously attempt to argue with what I presented is more likely an attempt to avoid being proven wrong on the interweb and/or to avoid having to change ones deeply held worldview on the subject as opposed to any altruistic desires.

As for the offal, I have never eaten fish offal, nor do I know anybody that does, so it seems irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

At least these discussions have allowed the presentation of some links and information that can allow folks to make up their own mind not only about fish in Utah lake but also fish available commercially at the supermarket or restaurants. (re read the UL sediment study for that!) With that I am done with this, unless someone has some fishing related question or wants some of the hard numbers from the original mercury studies the health department completed. (They took down the numbers link last year, but I have it available in print form.)


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

For the purposes of PCBs, offal includes the skin. People often cook fish whole, and recommendations regarding PCBs are that you should discard the skin. The fact that you're assuming I mean the guts only shows that you yourself should do some reading, and maybe read the whole content of these things you're quoting instead of what you like to see.

http://fishadvisories.utah.gov/docs/2007/100207_Fish_Advisoryi-nr.pdf

"The offal (all tissue except the fillet) of any fish species tested from Utah Lake in this study (i.e. black
bullhead, channel catfish, common carp, walleye, and white bass) should not be consumed due to high
levels of PCBs."

Speaking of my motives for chiming in on the subject, if someone looks at your history of posts on this subject and compares the volume of stilted evidence you've repeated to the few responses I've made, you've got an interest in this that borders on compulsion.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Jedidiah said:


> Speaking of my motives for chiming in on the subject, if someone looks at your history of posts on this subject and compares the volume of stilted evidence you've repeated to the few responses I've made, you've got an interest in this that borders on compulsion.


Actually, I largely commented and rebutted the stilted information that you presented. Any additional "volume" as you say is present to back up my arguments. I would also submit that an unbiased reader of our threads would be equally likely to assign the term "compulsion" to *your* responses as to mine.

Have a good day.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

Why is there such a heated debate about PCBs in fish on a thread about pan fish from Utah Lake? The advisory is for carp and channel cats. If you've got a soapbox to get on about the dangers of PCBs perhaps you could do so in a thread about PCBs or at least about eating fish that are contained in the advisory for Utah Lake. And in that thread I'll mention that I occasionally ate channel cats from UL. Only side affect I have is the extra arms that I have to get more things done. So I get to eat catfish AND get more done. Win win.

To the original post. Those lengths look respectable. But, I'll echo Catherder, keep whatever size you're willing to fillet. I'd love to catch 10" perch all day but if I'm only getting 5-6 inchers I'll still keep them cause I love perch. It's a lot of work for just a little meat and probably not worth it to most people, but it's worth it to me.

Oh, and don't eat the guts or skin on a pan fish. Cause that's gross...


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Don't eat the skin?!! Man, scale/head/gut some bluegill or perch then dredge them whole in flour and deep fry them crispy---sweet baby cheesus! That is some tasty stuff right there! Plus the fins are like crispy fish potato chips!


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Update: I caught one keeper bluegill today (a healthy 8.5 inches long), in addition to a bunch of small crappie, white bass, and even a sunfish. I let it go, though, because keeping only one hardly seems worthwhile. I guess I'll have to wait until later to begin slowly poisoning myself. Thanks for the input. It was fun getting out.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Back to your question, I guess my "keeper" threshold is the fish big enough to be worth the effort to filet it out and cook it. So to me, that means it needs to be more than 3-4 bites per filet. With bluegill, that means they need to be bigger than my hand, or about 8 inches nose to tail. Otherwise, they go back. 

I've studied the water quality in Utah Lake more than most folks due to my profession and projects I've worked. And I've had no problem eating catfish and bluegill I've caught there.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

And I trust Garyfish vision. After all he has 3 eyes. . As far as size I would say 10 inch minimum. There is a gizmo that does panfish fillets in a jiffy, it's slicker than snot


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Check it out

http://www.fishskinner.com/


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