# Ammo Hoarding and Profiteering



## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

I've spent some considerable time thinking about this lately and I wanted to have a discussion about it.

I've seen a bunch of people lately saying that they or their buddy are now sick to their stomachs about spending 4 times what they should have spent for an AR magazine this time last year. They spent $80 when now they can get them for $20 or whatever.

I also see people talking about hoarding up 50k rounds of .22.

I see pictures of people standing outside Sportsmans on Tuesday mornings waiting in line to buy a brick of 22.

I see a bottle of 2400 powder listed on gun exchange for $40, twice what it would be from the store.

I'm sure we've all seen the same things.

Last year, after the Sandy Hook shootings, the market went crazy. At the same time, gun politics went crazy. Not wanting to let any good crisis go to waste, the party in power tried to seize on the public sentiment to gain ground against guns. While I could go on for hours about those politics, and the morality of using a tragedy for political gain, that's not the subject I want to talk about here.

What I do want to talk about was the _likelihood_ that you'd never be able to buy a 20 or 30 round AR magazine last year. In other words, the potential success the party in power might have in getting a ban of certain things through. Last year, there was some substantial likelihood that _some_ sort of ban was going to happen, although no one could anticipate _what_ was going to be banned.

Since the best guess was that the first things on the list to ban this time are the things that were on the list of things to ban last time. And I think we saw that in the ARs flying off shelves, the 11+ round magazines disappearing practically over night, _and_ the inflated prices for everything that might be banned.

What I didn't specifically anticipate was the demand for items that _were not_ banned on the last go round, specifically, 223 ammo and more broadly all ammo.

Even so, when it became apparent that there was not the political will to get any sort of ban passed, it seems that the market peaked and the prices/volume of trading started to come down.

I understand why, in the face of a possible legal ban, people would spend 4x more on a magazine than they would in a normal market. It's because the _risk_ of never being able to buy it again is outweighed by the cost of buying it at 4x the price. If you got burned by spending that much, that's too bad but consider that what you were really buying was a magazine _and the risk_ that you would never be able to buy one again. If the ban had passed, you'd be glad you bought the magazine even at 4x the price.

I can also understand unloading a lot of the things you had laying around that were in high demand. I bought a reloading press 6 days before Sandy Hook. Since 2006, I tried to keep at least a shooting day's worth of ammo on my shelf so I could go shooting without having to go to the store. And, since I now had a reloading machine, I sold all of my factory ammo at the height of the market. I sold it for more than I paid for it and I fully and freely admit that. In my mind, it was like buying Ruger stock when it was $23 and selling it when it was at $80. I had the ammo on hand, I didn't need it any more because I could make my own and so I sold it. I also accepted the risk that the ammo I was selling could be banned and I couldn't get more of it. I don't know of anyone who thought that ammo would be banned though, so that seemed a safe risk to me.

Here's where the demand for ammo/guns/etc, at least in my mind, became irrational. When it became clear that the bans were not going to happen, higher levels of demand continued to exist. I thought it would die down probably by the fall and everything would get back to normal as long as no psycho shot up an elementary school between May-ish when it was clear bans didn't have public or political support and October-ish.

Here we are now almost a year later and supplies are still non-existent. Some ammo is still unavailable. Powder, primers, popular bullets, popular brass, etc. are bought off the pallets before they can even hit the shelves.

Why?

I have a couple explanations.

First - The preppers/conspiracy theorists. These are the people that so deeply distrust the government that they will buy anything and everything they can possibly afford to buy. While the numbers of these people are expanding for a variety of reasons, the historic supply of guns/ammo seems to be enough to satisfy the general shooting public and exhaust every last prepper/conspiracy theorist dollar.

I don't see that changing. There is nothing you can say to the preppers or the conspiracy theorists to make them believe they don't need to buy every last bullet that comes off the factory line. In my opinion, that's a level of irrationality that no one can talk them out of.

These people are the hoarders. They are the ones that think if they die with the last 50k rounds of 22 on earth, they will be better off. There may be things that slow down the hoarding but they won't stop hoarding everything they can get their hands on.

Second - The profiteers. These are the people that buy everything they can at Sportsman's every Tuesday morning and have it listed on GunExchange or KSL by lunch at twice what they paid for it.

But, what is the difference between before Sandy Hook and now? I don't think there is anything different in terms of the politics and public sentiment. So, in my opinion, it can't be the possibility that something is going to be banned that is perpetuating the shortage of guns/ammo/reloading supplies/etc.

The difference between then and now is ONLY the demand on these items. But, why? What is it that is driving the demand?

My first answer is the shortage. It is NOT having the stuff on shelves that is driving people to buy it so fast that it never hits the shelves.

That begs my next question though. Who is buying it so fast that it never hits the shelves? My answer to that question is the profiteers and the general shooting public.

Let me be clear up front. I do NOT believe that everyone at Sportsmans on Tuesday morning is a profiteer. Some of the people there are people who want to buy ammo for a reasonable price and it is worth it to them to stand in line for 2 hours to get their 300 rounds of 22 for the week. But, there are profiteers in that line and all of us know it.

It is my considered opinion that it is the profiteers who are perpetuating the shortage by buying everything they can and turning around and selling it for inflated prices. It is in their financial interest to perpetuate the shortage by preventing other people from being able to buy ammo specifically from primary sources. By forcing the general shooting public to buy from secondary sources, they ensure enough profit to make it worth it to stay in business buying ammo from primary sources and selling it in the secondary market.

That's a pretty perverse motive. Extend the shortage so you can make more money off it.

So what can the general shooting public do about it? The solution many have had is for no one to buy from the profiteers and therefore put them out of business. The problem with that is no one wants to be the guy standing there with principles and without ammo at the end of the day. And, the profiteer only needs one buyer for each product to make his buck. So, not buying from them is not a solution because not everyone will be on board.

The issue, as I see it, is really that it is worth it for the profiteers to spend 2 hours in line and buy everything they can because what they make in profit is easy money. Think about it, if you buy a pound of 2400 powder for $18 and you can sell it for $40, you made $22 as fast as you can sell it on Gun Exchange. It only gets better if you can buy 1k Large Magnum Rifle primers for $40 at Sportsmans and turn around and sell them on Gunbroker for $280. It is easy money.

The only way to stop the profiteers is to make it LESS EASY to make that kind of money.

There are two ways people have historically done something like this. First is public shaming ala a sex offender registry. You post names, addresses, pictures, etc so no one wants to see them/be around them/or live near them. According to the theory, a sex offender registry makes it harder for sex offenders to commit sexual offenses. So an ammo profiteer registry would theoretically work for the same reasons. Unfortunately, I do NOT believe the theory. I don't think it works like that because it demands that the public be responsible and aware of its surroundings.

The way the public gets people to stop doing something has historically been a letter campaign. People write hundreds of thousands of letters to companies telling them they won't buy their products or they shouldn't support X or they shouldn't make X product, etc. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

But, in those cases, the companies have multiple people dealing with the letters. So you have to have enough volume of letters to overwhelm the people dealing with the letters to get the company's attention. I think you could do the exact same thing with the profiteers.

Say Rebok777 posts a pound of 2400 powder for $40 on GunExchange. If he has to deal with 100 people sending him texts and calling him and RESPECTFULLY telling him that he is perpetuating the shortage on ammo and reloading supplies, you overwhelm him. All of the sudden, the $20 he makes on a pound of 2400 is not so easy to make any more. He either responds by raising prices (to a level no one would pay) or by going out of the profiteering business. Those are the only options.

If there was some facebook group where people could post ads that are clearly profiteering with 100 people who would actually be willing to call or send a text to a profiteer, profiteering ends by the end of the week. The cost of dealing with all of the incoming texts/calls/emails/etc overwhelms the profiteer and it's not worth it to try to make the $20 in easy money to weed through 100 responses to find the one that will give him $20.

I apologize this has gone on so long. But, I've been thinking about this for a while.

Thoughts?


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

How about you let the free market system of supply and demand work. Demand is high, supply is the same as it has been for a long time and it can't keep up. You touched on some of the causes, but there are others as well, but that is beside the point. We are where we are, more people want to buy 22 shells than companies can make. At the shot show this year, there were about a dozen new companies that will be making only 22 shells by the end of the year. After the supply catches up with the demand, the same thing that happened to AR magazines will happen to 22 shells and you'll get them cheaper than before the whole sandy hook.

If you want to shoot while you wait for the market to catch up, you'll either have to have enough shells to last or you will have to pay higher prices. Either way you still get to shoot. In your alternate world of no profiteers, you may not even have the option to shoot because shells won't be available. You blame the profiteers, but it is the profiteers that are making shells available to the general public. I would bet more that 50% of the shells being sold on ksl etc.. classifieds are shells that being bought from out of town. I myself bought 1000 rounds from a website a couple weeks ago. I sold the 500 rounds to sell and kept 500 rounds. If there was no incentive for profit, I wouldn't have purchased the 22 shells and there wouldn't be 500 rounds in the pocket of a guy that is having 2 kids take hunters safety. He paid a premium, but that is the value of the shells to that guy. * Who are you to assign the value of an item to someone else? *

I don't like price gouging and don't shop at stores or buy from people that gouge, however, it is not a bad or immoral thing. If something is worth the price to me, I can get it, if I don't want to pay $50 for a brick of 22 shells, I won't buy them. If I can buy some shells, primer, or powder and make a profit that is worth the risk, why shouldn't I do it. Here is a video about price gouging and should be illegal and is it immoral. Whether you agree with it or not, it is well worth the 5 minutes.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

I didn't say anything about profiteering being immoral. I only said if you raised the cost of doing business for them, you could buy what you want at the store because the profit on the quick flip wouldn't be as easy to make.

I'm not assigning any value to anything nor am I proposing to tell anyone how much he can spend on 22 ammo. If someone lists 500 rounds of 22 for twice what he paid for it, fine. Someone can buy it. But, I am for taking away the incentive for that person to flip it in the first place by making him wade through 100 other people to find the one who wants to buy it.

Profiteers are not going to take kindly to my idea. That's evidence it is a good one.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

The end result of your idea (if it works) is there is going to be less product available to the general public, you just removed the incentive for people to bring more product into the state. 

Your statement, "If there were some facebook group where people could post ads that are clearly profiteering". How do you know who is profiteering and who gets to decide who gets to be harassed? I bought 1lb of powder for $40 in a pinch and resold it for $35 because I went with another powder. From prices 2 years ago, that is profiteering, but I also bought a lb of powder at Gunnies the other day for $29 + tax. Are you going to harass businesses as well? I paid 30% more for 22 shells at sportsmans a couple weeks ago than I did 18 months ago. Your plan amounts to harassment and shows a lack of understanding of how the market works. You want cheaper 22 shells and now you want to punish the guys that are getting them and the guys that are willing to pay for them (of which I am neither).


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

First, you are assuming that all product shipped to Utah stays in Utah. Second, you are assuming that products shipped somewhere else comes to Utah because people here will pay for it.

Neither is necessarily true. It's just as likely people are buying it in Midvale and selling it in Grand Junction. It's also just as likely that people in Cody, WY will pay the same or more as someone in Salt Lake.

So, that argument is illogical.

I don't know who is profiteering and who isn't. Nor do I have to. If someone posts an ad he saw on Gun Exchange on Facebook, anyone who his a member of the group could decide for himself whether or not he thought the seller was buying for the purpose of reselling and send the text if he wants to. 

If 98 people agree that the person is demanding too much for his 22 ammo, he'll get 99 texts from 98 people who are going to tell him so and 1 person who wants to buy at his inflated price. 

It would work equally as well for businesses. Especially those who are inflating prices to try to keep product in the stores. 

It used to be that if you went to the store and bought 22 LR instead of 22 short, you'd have to list them at a loss - cheaper than what you could buy them for in stores - in order to sell them. Now, people are selling them for MORE than the store charges and they are perpetuating the shortages by doing that.

In my opinion, someone who is selling 22 for more than a store would sell it for is profiteering. There's no demand from an "emergency" that is pushing prices up like it was before. It is solely a supply issue that is perpetuated by people who have a financial incentive to see it continue.

If you think I don't understand how the market works, explain it to me. That's what I came here asking people to do. Explain to me why there is profit in reselling ammo. Then explain to me why the ammo profiteers are not the ones perpetuating the shortages. Go ahead. Enlighten me.

Yes, I do want to punish the ammo resellers by forcing them out of business because they are perpetuating the shortage. Legally, it's not harassment. If I put out an open ad of things for sale and I get 100 people to respond, how is that harassment? It's the cost of doing business the manner you wish to do business.

I bought 4 pounds of RL-19 last week. It was $30/pound and I bought it on the primary market. I felt like I was being screwed, yes. I haven't seen any factories say they are raising prices. The businesses are following the profiteers. If the profiteers can make more money selling the same bottle of powder than a business on the primary market, why shouldn't the primary market raise it's prices? They are the ones with overhead and store fronts. They are doing on the backend what I am proposing the consumers do on the front end - squeezing the resellers out of business.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

IMO part of this is the "per bullet" tax being proposed in many places. Some are as high as $1 per bullet. Alot of people are hoarding ammo in places like California, Maryland and New York where such talk exists. 

Imagine living in a place where such a tax might happen, that $50 a brick might turn into $550 a brick for those folk with a $1 a round tax. People buying a case of 5000 for $500 now might turn out to be pretty smart if that goes into effect.


-DallanC


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## Transfixer (Jul 7, 2009)

[
If there was some facebook group where people could post ads that are clearly profiteering with 100 people who would actually be willing to call or send a text to a profiteer, profiteering ends by the end of the week. The cost of dealing with all of the incoming texts/calls/emails/etc overwhelms the profiteer and it's not worth it to try to make the $20 in easy money to weed through 100 responses to find the one that will give him $20.

[/QUOTE] This group is trying.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/248563231974176/


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## lifes short (Sep 11, 2013)

Dodger I think you are fighting human nature. As long as someone thinks there is some kind of a shortage someone else will profit from it. Until you take the money out of it someone will go to the trouble of selling it. We go way beyond harrassing drug dealers, we throw them in jail and someone else is in line to step in and take over. As long as someone is willing to pay crazy prices, I don't care if it is .22 shells or drugs someone will step in and sell it. The only way to stop reselling is for people to wise up and quit paying those prices. But human nature will not allow it ( I have it and you don't). I have been in retail for pushing 40 years, let me tell you a story to prove this point. One Sunday morning I was at work and a lady customer commenced to read me the riot act for the price of some crazy spice (like I have any control over it). Never wanting to let a great oppurtunity like this slip by I made up a BULLSXXT story up about how the only island that spice grew on in the Carribean had there government overthrown and that was causing the price to go sky high and it would probably be impossible to get soon. Mrs. consumer went from madder than a hornet at the high price to the wolf of Wall Street and bought all 3 bottles we had on the shelf, and was happier than hell she had cornered the market. 

Good luck on trying to fight human nature.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Two thoughts here.
1. It is only "hoarding" if someone else is doing it. If I'm doing it, I'm just buying ammo.
2. It is only immoral if someone else is selling things WAY above what they should. If I'm doing it, I'm just "buying low and selling high" - the true secret of investing in anything.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

wait and see what happens if any of the things that the preppers are prepping for come to pass. I know ALOT of people in this state that would be doing the same thing with food and water. If somebody has the where with all to stockpile ammo, food, water or chicklets for that matter, it is their right to do so.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Dodger said:


> Explain to me why there is profit in reselling ammo. Then explain to me why the ammo profiteers are not the ones perpetuating the shortages.


The value of a 22lr is no longer $20/brick. The value of a brick of 22lr is what people will pay for them which is about $50 now. You want to blame the guys reselling the ammo, they don't set the price, the guys buying ammo (market) set the price at $50 a brick. There is no shortage of 22lr ammo, just a shortage of 22lr ammo at $20/brick because that is no longer the value of 22lr ammo. 100 guys harassing a few people is not going to change the price of ammo that the market sets. If you don't get it yet, there is nothing I can say to help you understand.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> Two thoughts here.
> 1. It is only "hoarding" if someone else is doing it. If I'm doing it, I'm just buying ammo.
> 2. It is only immoral if someone else is selling things WAY above what they should. If I'm doing it, I'm just "buying low and selling high" - the true secret of investing in anything.


I'm not making value judgements here. I'm not talking about the morality of doing it. As I said, I sold my factory ammo when the market was high. I don't see anything wrong with doing that.

I see that the consumers have the ability to participate in the market by raising the cost of doing business to force profiteers out.

I've got no problem with the hoarders. They can and should be allowed to buy whatever they want. But, the nature of being a hoarder means that you only have so much money to go around. Their constraints to how much they can buy are financial.



DallanC said:


> IMO part of this is the "per bullet" tax being proposed in many places. Some are as high as $1 per bullet. Alot of people are hoarding ammo in places like California, Maryland and New York where such talk exists.
> 
> Imagine living in a place where such a tax might happen, that $50 a brick might turn into $550 a brick for those folk with a $1 a round tax. People buying a case of 5000 for $500 now might turn out to be pretty smart if that goes into effect.
> 
> -DallanC


That's an interesting thought Dallan. I have a couple of thoughts there. First - CA, MD, and NY aren't hotbeds of shooting. Heck, I used to live 2 miles from the MD border. There's nary a gun shop to be found. If you want ammo, you go to walmart. So, my guess is that demand in those states is already lower than other states. Second, in those states, PA/NH/ME, VA/WV/PA, and NV/AZ are right next door. It would be as easy to get bullets there as it would to buy booze in Evanston and bypass a lot of taxes.

I'm not sure there is a profit to be had at the end of the rainbow, even if they got a $1/round tax through in those states.



Mr Muleskinner said:


> wait and see what happens if any of the things that the preppers are prepping for come to pass. I know ALOT of people in this state that would be doing the same thing with food and water. If somebody has the where with all to stockpile ammo, food, water or chicklets for that matter, it is their right to do so.


I agree and, like I said, I have no problem with people buying any quantity of whatever they want. I just don't believe the financially constrained hoarders are what is causing the current shortage.

My premise has nothing to do with the morality of hoarding/price gouging. My only thought here is to try to drive the profiteers out of business by raising the cost of them doing their business in the manner they are doing it, thereby making it cost ineffective to wait in line, buy ammo, list it, and resell it.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

toasty said:


> The value of a 22lr is no longer $20/brick. The value of a brick of 22lr is what people will pay for them which is about $50 now. You want to blame the guys reselling the ammo, they don't set the price, the guys buying ammo (market) set the price at $50 a brick. There is no shortage of 22lr ammo, just a shortage of 22lr ammo at $20/brick because that is no longer the value of 22lr ammo. 100 guys harassing a few people is not going to change the price of ammo that the market sets. If you don't get it yet, there is nothing I can say to help you understand.


That's not true. The value of a brick of 22 is $23 at Sportsmans on Tuesday morning.

The price of letting someone go to the store and buy it for you is $50.

Those people buy a monopoly in the secondary market because they exhaust the primary market. That artificially inflates the secondary market and lets people make money by reselling ammo. But, if it is not worth the $50 because you have people constantly bugging you about your ammo, you get out of the reselling business, right?

It's your opinion that it won't work. But, telling me that I don't understand how the market work is not evidence that supports your opinion.

How would your boss feel if you got 100 more texts a day? How would your wife feel about fielding an extra 100 calls per day? How would you enjoy reading and deleting 100 emails per day? All for $25?

Even the profiteers aren't that desperate.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Fear! Fear is a pretty strong emotion. Often disguising itself in the form of aggression, anger, irrational etc. Toasty said it well "There is no shortage of 22lr ammo". All the gougers couldn't give it away if there wasn't someone willing to take it! I've seen this happen before only the most recent time maybe 4-5 yrs ago it was 45acp and 40sw to name some. Well guess what is always on the shelf at every store now. The demand was so high that eventually the supply caught up and once it did every tom and harry in the market for those cals, already had them and the shelves are full. For me I don't buy into, even for a second any of what I hear about government this or that. Its simply supply and demand. Ever try and find the hottest toys or gadgets come Dec. 15. All gone! Two months later....all on the shelf again. No government scare or zombie crisis or the like. 
I feel the frustration of not being able to go to the store and buy what you need that is because some jerk face got there first only to double the cost to some other idiot willing to pay it. But I blame the latter. With that being said I would hang any gouger in times like these if given the chance!
Now look, I am rambling now-O,-


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## brookieguy1 (Oct 14, 2008)

We've all seen the same thing with gasoline for years. We pay whatever they ask for what we want and need. It's a dirty shame. Gasoline, true value, should cost around .90 cents.....for two gallons. At that price, all sides would still make billions.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> I feel the frustration of not being able to go to the store and buy what you need that is because some jerk face got there first only to double the cost


So to be clear.......if you had got there first you would be fine with that.


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## brookieguy1 (Oct 14, 2008)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> So to be clear.......if you had got there first you would be fine with that.


Well of course! It's different when I do it. People love me and want to see me succeed.:grin::grin:


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> So to be clear.......if you had got there first you would be fine with that.


Im not sure what you are implying...? If you are implying that I got to to the store first and resold the ammo at twice the price and I would be ok with that, well that is obsurd and I dont know how you could reach that conclusion from my statement.
If you are implying that I would be ok with simply getting to the store first to purchase ammo before the guy who is there to purchase it and then resell it at twice the price. Well hell yes I would. That is obvious and doesnt need clarifying.
I cant think of anything else that you might be trying to get at so if I have missed it help me out here.
Cheddar


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Just because some other person gets there before you doesn't mean that their only intention is to resell it and it doesn't make them a jerk face either. I would bet a vast majority of people that buy ammo don't resale it. It is is not the act of posting ammo for resale that raises the prices.

YOU have no more right to that ammo than anybody else. Regardless of it's intended use. If you feel otherwise.......you are a jerk face.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Mr. Muleskinner,
Get over yourself! Do you really think that this thread and all others like it are referencing the people who just buy ammo to shoot it or maybe have a little extra on hand? You love to state the obvious facts but I for one dont believe in discusing what is already understood. Ofcourse not everybody who buys ammo is reselling it. Are we arguing about that? As far as prices, over the established retail industry I dont think ammo has been raised all that much. There are laws against price gouging thats why a brick of 22lr is still quite reasonable at the store. The price gougers raise the price for those willing to pay. Are we arguing about this? Justify and rationalize it however you want, at the end of the day it is taking advantage out of a person with a need. Change it up a bit. What if it were insulin for your kid or heart medication for your wife and some jerk face bought it all up to charge you double just because he hs the "right" to do so? action is still the same, different criteria! You mention rights? What do you mean? Constitutional? God given? I say nay on both accounts! You have the priveledge and opportunity in this country to do dang near whatever you please, but that doesnt mean its right or wrong for that matter, or without consequence. Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should. Try not to cloud the issues at hand with your presumptious interpretations of others statements and opinions and just ask to clarify.


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm mad because some jerk face not only beat me to the store and bought the ammo for 23 bucks....then sold it for 50! But because another jerk face bought if for 50, then went and shot it up at old TV's paper targets and plastic bottles!! I was going to shoot boxes...old shotgun shells and milk jugs!!!! All that jerk face did is waste ammo!!! If you're gonna beat me too MY ammo.....please use it as I would. Thank you. :mrgreen:


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

I think you guys are missing my point. I'm not saying what the profiteers are doing is right or wrong. This is, or in some cases used to be, America, they are free to do it and right or wrong is irrelevant to what I'm talking about. What I'm trying to tell you is that I think I came up with a way to out-compete them.

Does anyone agree with my assessment that the profiteers are prolonging the shortage by doing what they are doing?

Also, I'm not talking about guys that go on Tuesday morning to buy ammo to go shoot on Saturday. If you are buying ammo to go have fun with it, great! That's what it's for. But if you buy it to re-list it on Tuesday by lunch, you're, I think, keeping the shortage going because it's good for your wallet.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

Dodger said:


> I think you guys are missing my point. I'm not saying what the profiteers are doing is right or wrong. This is, or in some cases used to be, America, they are free to do it and right or wrong is irrelevant to what I'm talking about. What I'm trying to tell you is that I think I came up with a way to out-compete them.
> 
> Does anyone agree with my assessment that the profiteers are prolonging the shortage by doing what they are doing?
> 
> Also, I'm not talking about guys that go on Tuesday morning to buy ammo to go shoot on Saturday. If you are buying ammo to go have fun with it, great! That's what it's for. But if you buy it to re-list it on Tuesday by lunch, you're, I think, keeping the shortage going because it's good for your wallet.


I think you make some good points. Personally, I have enough ammo that I don't need to scramble for it. When I see some for a good deal I buy it. There is no way I would pay $50 for a brick of 22. I know lots of people that are buying more than they used to. I think the real question is.... do you think 22 shells will ever go below the current shelf price of $23. If not, you might as well buy all you want because it is an investment... I still think there are enough people hording that no action except for increasing production will get rid of the inflated secondary market.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

torowy said:


> I think you make some good points. Personally, I have enough ammo that I don't need to scramble for it. When I see some for a good deal I buy it. There is no way I would pay $50 for a brick of 22. I know lots of people that are buying more than they used to. I think the real question is.... do you think 22 shells will ever go below the current shelf price of $23. If not, you might as well buy all you want because it is an investment... I still think there are enough people hording that no action except for increasing production will get rid of the inflated secondary market.


That's a good point. To be clear, I haven't bought 22 in 6 years now because I haven't needed it. Since I reload, I have all the bullets I need on hand to go shooting, whenever I want.

Yes, I would like it to be easier to find some reloading components I'm after, but I'm usually able to find pretty much what I want - except for Hornaday not producing my 06 bullets this year. 

Maybe hoarders are more of the problem than I give them credit for. I just think with their financial constraints, it's harder for them to buy and hold in the same quantities. If you're a profiteer and you buy and resell, you can move a lot more quantity with a lot less money.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Like most guys I laughed at the $50 a brick prices last year. I, for years would buy a birck here or there, not hoarding just knowing that when I shot .22 i shot a lot and didn't want an open sign to dictate whether I shot or not. The problem i have is a 8 yr old with a 10/22 burns 10x what I did alone and now i find myself down to my last brick. Don't think for a minute that I won't spend the $50 for a rabit hunting trip with him, but I wished I wouldn't have to. The only way the stores can help is a 1 or two box limit. If the profiteer had to make 10 trips to sportsmans to get that brick he couldn't maintain that profit margin. However, if you want to light up his phone line, and burn up his cell phone, that also would dent his profits. Is it sad that we are at this point, YEAH. Obama doesn't need to tax ammo, we are doing it to ourselves. My real question is if you wait in line 2 hours to buy a $23 box of shells to resale at $50, even if you only spend $3 in gas your margin is $14. If you wait 2 hours your made $7 per hour. If you stood at the window at Mc Donalds for 2 hours you made $15/ $7.50 per hour. What we REALLY should worry about is Sportsmans spent 500k for the building, millions in wages, 100's of thousands in taxes and permits, and some jackwagon on the internet makes a 50% margin. Why would you open a brick and mortar store? If you want to stop the profiteering, convince the secondary on line auction sites to charge huge fees to multiple listers. Right now these guys exist in a gray zone. Drop a tip to the IRS, you know they arent paying income taxes. If you go to a house, drop a tip to the city, youknow they aren't buisness licensed or zoned as a ammo store.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I still think people are missing a golden opportunity to start a new business. Name anything else out there currently with such a known demand and profit margin. Start making .22LR ammo and turning them out. In todays technological age, a quick call to China would net you a few machines that would turn out primed rimfire cases and the rest of the manufacturing. Get a couple million funding for funding and goto town. You'd always have ammo and probably get rich doing it.


-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Two words......BE PATIENT! Find another hobby for a few months and wait it out. Buy a couple recurve bows to shoot with your kids. Build a dog house. I know it's hard to visualize but there is life beyond 22 LR.---SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> Two words......BE PATIENT! Find another hobby for a few months and wait it out. Buy a couple recurve bows to shoot with your kids. Build a dog house. I know it's hard to visualize but there is life beyond 22 LR.---SS


.22cal air rifle. Buy a mold... cast your own pellets, you'd be GTG forever if you bought a quality rifle.

-DallanC


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I understand how popular .22 LR ammo is, but what's the deal with .22 Mag ammo? I wouldn't think there would be such a demand for it like there is. I haven't seen a box on the shelves in months, and the same thing with .22-250 ammo. I guess I'm just going to have to start looking for a .243 rifle, at least I can still find ammo for that.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Fowlmouth said:


> I understand how popular .22 LR ammo is, but what's the deal with .22 Mag ammo? I wouldn't think there would be such a demand for it like there is. I haven't seen a box on the shelves in months, and the same thing with .22-250 ammo. I guess I'm just going to have to start looking for a .243 rifle, at least I can still find ammo for that.


22-250 and 22 mag everytime I go to the store!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> 22-250 and 22 mag everytime I go to the store!


Boy no kidding. I see 100round packs of .22-250 on the shelves in some stores, I didn't even realize they offered them in 100round packs lmao.

I see .22mag every couple of trips. to walmart.

-DallanC


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Boy no kidding. I see 100round packs of .22-250 on the shelves in some stores, I didn't even realize they offered them in 100round packs lmao.
> 
> I see .22mag every couple of trips. to walmart.
> 
> -DallanC


I guess it depends on what stores you hit. I went to 2 Cal Ranch stores today and Sportsmans Warehouse with no luck. I haven't seen .22 Mag in the local Walmart in almost a year. I did find one box of Nosler 22-250 at Sportsmans, but it was 45 grn. Varmint loads and I am looking for 55 grn. softpoints. I will keep looking I guess...........


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Fowlmouth said:


> I guess it depends on what stores you hit. I went to 2 Cal Ranch stores today and Sportsmans Warehouse with no luck. I haven't seen .22 Mag in the local Walmart in almost a year. I did find one box of Nosler 22-250 at Sportsmans, but it was 45 grn. Varmint loads and I am looking for 55 grn. softpoints. I will keep looking I guess...........


What area you in?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

We have plenty of 22-250 at Gunnies, 22 Mag is another story, just like everything else, the "get-it-now-before-its-gone" mentality made it go.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> What area you in?


I'm in Tooele.


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Simple, just nobody buy ammo on line from local people, let them sit on it and get stuck with it, burn them right back, the shelves in the stores will fill back up and everything will be /OK, if everyone picked up a new hobby or get that extra work done around the house for a couple months it will all work out, of course getting everyone on the same page is another thing altogether.


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## Wind In His Hair (Dec 31, 2009)

Fowlmouth said:


> I understand how popular .22 LR ammo is, but what's the deal with .22 Mag ammo? I wouldn't think there would be such a demand for it like there is. I haven't seen a box on the shelves in months, and the same thing with .22-250 ammo. I guess I'm just going to have to start looking for a .243 rifle, at least I can still find ammo for that.


I imagine the rimfire factories are working so hard to get .22 LR out the door, that .22 Mag and the others takes a back seat. Thing is though, I see .17 HMR everyday. :noidea:


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## Wind In His Hair (Dec 31, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> Two words......BE PATIENT! Find another hobby for a few months and wait it out. Buy a couple recurve bows to shoot with your kids. Build a dog house. I know it's hard to visualize but there is life beyond 22 LR.---SS


:clap2:

Cameras are real cheap to shoot, no ammo needed. hoto:

Wrist rockets are $10, dollar stores have marbles, rocks are free.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

fastcamo said:


> Simple, just nobody buy ammo on line from local people, let them sit on it and get stuck with it, burn them right back, the shelves in the stores will fill back up and everything will be /OK, if everyone picked up a new hobby or get that extra work done around the house for a couple months it will all work out, of course getting everyone on the same page is another thing altogether.


I think I explained why that doesn't work. No one wants to be the guy at the end with principles and without ammo.


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

I have had these for over 25 years sitting around. Bought Mags instead of regulars. I never had owned a 22 mag just LR. If your out this way Foulmouth you can have them.


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