# Realistic group sizes from factory ammo



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I always see gun writers and people in ammo reviews touting sub moa and clover leaf groups all day long from different types of factory ammo. I've also read from a lot of "experts" that sub moa groups from stock rifles and factory ammo are pretty rare and a lot of these accounts may be exaggerations. What have you found is a typical group size from standard factory ammo? What do you consider acceptable accuracy for a hunter to take shots to about 350 yards?


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

I would imagine those magazine guys shoot more types of factory ammo than the average guy is willing to do. 
Assuming a deer sized target I would think you'd be OK at 350 yards with a 6 inch group. I'd feel a lot better at MOA but you'd be OK.


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## jshuag (Jan 16, 2014)

I am getting 3.5 inch groups out of a 7mm Rem mag at 200 yards using Nossler ammo 168. I was laughed out of Smith and Edwards when a fella told me he was getting dime sized groups out of his 223 at 400 yards. I then replied, "yes but I am in a sitting position using shooting sticks, is that what you are doing or are you shooting prone?" He quickly changed the subject. 

I figured as much because he loads his own ammo as well. 

Nonetheless I am trying to reproduce the shot I will most likely take while hunting. I don't find myself with prone shots always available.


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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

A lot depends on caliber.
I wouldn't expect sub MOA out of my .45-70 Guide Gun, but would absolutely expect it from a 6.5 Swede.
Factory ammo has improved dramatically in the last 5 to 10 years. Quality control is way up and can rival handloads. Combine this with the improvement in the firearms themselves, and you have a winning combination.
I'll take a SWAG and say that for most calibers, with quality ammo, you should easily be able to get 1" to 1.5" at 100yds with no problem.
A what no one really considers, is what is actually REQUIRED of accuracy for a hunting rifle? We're not talking match or 3 gun, but being able to hit a 6" or so target at typical hunting ranges. Here in the south, there is usually less than a 100yds of visibility, or is it Utah, where 300yds can be the norm.
BTW, I used to handload for my M700 5R .308, but found that Federal Gold Medal Match gives me cloverleafs at 200yds, so why bother?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There was a magazine article years ago that covered this subject and they came to the conclusion that if you have the time to go through what is available the the odds are that factory ammo is quite good. But you have to have all the different types of ammo available to you to be able to check them out. 

I have a Ruger #1V in 22-250 that likes some old Federal rounds. It will shoot sub moa with them with very little effort and I had a hard time coming up with a reload that would equal what the factory ammo would shoot, but I finally did.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

When it comes to shooting, folks have a tendency to remember only the best group they ever shot, and recalculate the range using a 20" yard. And they only count the best two shots in the group. To me, acceptable accuracy for a hunting load is one that will keep all of its shots in a three shot group half the size of the vital zone of the animal that I am hunting, at the maximum range that I will shoot at that animal. So if I plan on shooting deer at 1000 yards, I would need a 1/2 MOA gun and load.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Just curious, when did everyone switch to 3 shot groups? I see alot of that lately. Growing up everyone including magazines always showed 5 shot groups. I still only count 5 shot groups when working up loads.


-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Back to the OP, I've seen cheap-corelocks shoot .75MOA and I've seen factory Federal Premium shoot 3"


-DallanC


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I tried and tried and tried to work up a hand load for my 30-06, you know, trying to find a sweet spot for this particular rifle. After trying a couple dozen combinations of powders, bullets, loads, etc...., I found that winchester super X factory loads gave me the best consistency. I have no doubt they are loaded with more consistency than I was doing and my rifle just likes them. I am not "super accuracy" guy - I'm just about hunting accuracy. And I found that I get it from factory loads in my particular rifle. 

I can't cover 3 or 5 shots groups with a quarter at 300 yards. But in practice, I can consistently hit coke cans or clay targets at 300. Which is the accuracy needed for hunting purposes. Figure a deer heart is about the size of a coke can, then that is what I need to be able to hit at my effective hunting distances.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Just curious, when did everyone switch to 3 shot groups? I see alot of that lately. Growing up everyone including magazines always showed 5 shot groups. I still only count 5 shot groups when working up loads.
> 
> -DallanC


When the price of powder, primers, bullets, and cartridges doubled and availability of those items was scarce is when I saw the 3 shot groups start. 

For basic load development, 3 shot works great and I think guys like a 3 shot groups because it is easier to get a bug hole or clover leaf groups to brag about. After working up a load or deciding on a cartridge, I always validate a load with a minimum of 5 shot group. I've seen 3 shot groups go to pot with a 4th shot, which is something I would want to know about my rifles.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Of all the guns I currently own or have ever owned, Ive only had one that will shoot moa or smaller groups with factory ammo. That particular rifle is a Marlin X7 .243 that loves the Federal blue box cheep 100gr stuff. Here are a couple 5 shot groups by both myself and my older daughter (16) shot at 200 yards.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Just curious, when did everyone switch to 3 shot groups? I see alot of that lately. Growing up everyone including magazines always showed 5 shot groups. I still only count 5 shot groups when working up loads.
> 
> -DallanC


When they get tired of doing this, with 5 shot groups :mrgreen: Still makes me angry to look at it lol.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> I tried and tried and tried to work up a hand load for my 30-06, you know, trying to find a sweet spot for this particular rifle. After trying a couple dozen combinations of powders, bullets, loads, etc...., I found that winchester super X factory loads gave me the best consistency. I have no doubt they are loaded with more consistency than I was doing and my rifle just likes them. I am not "super accuracy" guy - I'm just about hunting accuracy. And I found that I get it from factory loads in my particular rifle.
> 
> I can't cover 3 or 5 shots groups with a quarter at 300 yards. But in practice, I can consistently hit coke cans or clay targets at 300. Which is the accuracy needed for hunting purposes. Figure a deer heart is about the size of a coke can, then that is what I need to be able to hit at my effective hunting distances.


Geeze Gary, don't shoot a deer in the heart, you'll ruin it.

.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> Geeze Gary, don't shoot a deer in the heart, you'll ruin it.
> 
> .


Good point Goob. Better to ruin the heart than a can of coke though. ;-)


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## reb8600 (Sep 8, 2007)

A 6" group as stated, is not acceptable in my opinion. I dont shoot much factory ammo but have used it in a Ruger American in 243 and 6.5 Creedmoor. Both of them will shoot less than 1" at 100 yards. I dont think I own a rifle that will not shoot less than 1" groups except for my lever action rifles. I am not talking 3 shot groups either, I shoot 5 shot groups. I will shoot 3 shot groups when starting to work up loads though. Three shots will tell you what a rifle will do. Five shots will tell you what you can do. When I get to the point of shooting a load to see what it will actually do, I will shoot 3 or 4 five shot groups.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Just curious, when did everyone switch to 3 shot groups? I see alot of that lately. Growing up everyone including magazines always showed 5 shot groups. I still only count 5 shot groups when working up loads.
> 
> -DallanC


In the shooting crowd I grew up in, we shot 3 shot groups for large caliber rifles with barrels smaller than #4 countour because of the inconsistencies related to heating. Target/Varmint guns are always tested with three shot groups. If you really must shoot 5 shot strings with your #3 300 magnum, you will probably want to give the barrel time to cool between shots to realize the true potential of the gun. I hate shooting groups but it is a necessary evil. The biggest variable is the trigger squeezer. Some days I'm a sub MOA shooter, some days I'm not.------SS


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

This is a good topic. That Loke is a smart man and gives some good advice for hunting. 

I like the paper plate rule-- hit a paper plate at the distance you want to shoot, in real conditions (weather, position, elevation, etc) and you'll kill all the big game animals you want to shoot at.

So I'm kind of lazy when it comes to shooting. Before the hunt, I shot a 2 shot group (can 2 be a group?) this year at 100 yards (well I think it was 97 yards, but I didn't want to move the truck to make it 100). I just shot off the corner of the bed and had a 2" -ish group, about 2" high and a touch right. Close enough. Killed lots of stuff with one shot this year so I guess it worked. Of course I know my gun and what bullets it likes. 

That said, I need to let my kids shoot more and gain more confidence in their guns. They do well and kill plenty, but gaining confidence in a gun is much more than clover leafing 50 cent pieces from a bench.


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## Mtngoat690 (Oct 29, 2014)

Interesting thread. With the rifles and ammunition today I would think that 1.5 inches would be a reasonable expectation from a factory rifle with factory ammo from the bench. Being involved in market research I have the privilege of tinkering with many factory offering and to be completely honest with you all.......I am shocked at what todays $300 rifles will do. There are a few of these manufactures that have "budget model" rifles that consistently shoot at an inch or under. Now I must confess I'm a sucker for a custom rifle that will shoot a raged one hole group, but as many of you know this comes at a price. I find myself questioning this all the time is going from a one inch group to a 1/2 inch group really worth the extra $2000? As far as hunting accuracy goes, I've shot rifles that were grouping at around 2 inches out to the 4 and 500yd gongs (sometimes farther) and they could hold their own. I've also seen a half inch rifle shooting from the bench turn into a 3.5 in rifle from field shooting positions.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

5 shots will heat the barrel up, I shoot smaller groups. in hunting situations, its usually a 1 shot situation and you want to be dialed in with a cold barrel.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Good point Goob. Better to ruin the heart than a can of coke though. ;-)


Yeah, good point.

The whole gun thing is complicated. Did you know they sell meat at the grocery stores?

.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Pack makes a great point, we all probably practice about a thousand times more than we need to. Come to think of it, I have never shot a group on a deer. Loke appreciates the business though. I just wish that more of my brethren would clean up after themselves while over-practicing.-----SS


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

torowy said:


> 5 shots will heat the barrel up, I shoot smaller groups. in hunting situations, its usually a 1 shot situation and you want to be dialed in with a cold barrel.


Me too. For most of my guns a group is 3 shots, so I take a handful of guns and switch them around so none of them get too hot. With guns that have heavy barrels I'll do 5 shots, max.

My eyesight has been on a downhill slide for a number of years and my use of reloads, and all the paper-punching that accompanies it, has followed. I love guns and love to shoot, but you need good eyesight to make it rewarding, enjoyable. I envy all the sharpshooters on this forum and I've learned much from their participation here. I just had my cataracts removed and new lenses in both eyes put in and I'm looking forward to putting some of this advice to good use, to getting back on track.

Back to the original thread: I've found most of today's moderately priced factory ammo to be good enough for any of my hunting situations.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I've never owned a good shooting gun or expensive gun. They all would shoot 3 inch or so groups at a hundred and they all kill what I point them at. I however would like a gun some day that I could brag about.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Now that I've been reloading for 5 separate guns for a few months and am making weekly trips to the range, I can tell you that my guns combined with MY shooting are so far no better off with handloaded ammunition. EXCEPT for my .40 S&W...I found the sweet spot that it likes and have conceded to shoot only those from now on.

I hunted for 16 years using my .270 ADL and always shot 150gr. Core-Lokt. Sometimes they'd shoot 1 - 1.5" groups and sometimes not. I've killed many a deer with it regardless. It wasn't until I moved to hunting elk with it that I actually started shooting "premium" bullets and it does seem to like them better....problem is availability. I like to practice and I like to hunt so if I cannot find the ammo I need/want when I want it I consider that a problem...thus the handloading adventure.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

One of the many reasons to join the NRA is to get the American Rifleman magazine. The NRA has the best criteria for firearm testing that I have seen. Rifles are shot at 100 yards, standard size pistols are shot at 25 yards and concealed carry pistols are shot at 7 yards. 

Each shoots 5 groups of 5 shots per ammunition type (25 shots per ammo type) using at least 2 different types of quality ammunition (usually three types). They tell the best group, the worst group and the average group size. Then they give the overall average. This criteria is the best used in the gun media hands down. 

I have been a member since 1998 and I read every magazine front to back and it is really surprising what this tells you about guns and accuracy. I have seen many cheap low end rifles shoot better groups that super high end rifles. But I will tell you that it is very rare to see a rifle that has an overall average group size of less than 1". By far most rifles from cheap to expensive will have a group size from 1.5 to 3 inches. Anyone here who thinks they have an amazing rifle needs to give their rifle this test. If it averages under 1" with 5 groups of 5 shots using 3 different ammo type (even handloads) then you have a fine rifle and should be proud. A couple of 3 shot groups under an inch isn't anything to brag about.

I am honestly a little surprised no one else brought this up. Am I the only NRA member around here? Shame be upon you! :-o


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

swbuckmaster said:


> I've never owned a good shooting gun or expensive gun. They all would shoot 3 inch or so groups at a hundred and they all kill what I point them at. I however would like a gun some day that I could brag about.


SW, I am by no means into expensive guns. I'm the guy the buys the value guns just to see what they will do. I do not claim to be a great marksman but have routinely shot 3/4 or under groups with guns costing under $400.00. As many have noted, with the guns companies are putting out these days, I'm a firm believer that it's more about finding the right reload and the ability of the shooter and less about how much the gun costs.


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## Watcher (Dec 31, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Just curious, when did everyone switch to 3 shot groups? I see alot of that lately. Growing up everyone including magazines always showed 5 shot groups. I still only count 5 shot groups when working up loads.
> 
> -DallanC


I agree with previous posts that some of these new models of guns have great accuracy to price ratios. I see some manufactures even guarantee MOA accuracy with three shot groups. Achieving MOA with three shots is a lot easier than MOA with five. Have you ever had a gun that consistently throws a flyer on 4 or 5? I think these gun manufacture claims and guarantees have also moved us to the 3 shot group.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Bo0YaA said:


> SW, I am by no means into expensive guns. I'm the guy the buys the value guns just to see what they will do. I do not claim to be a great marksman but have routinely shot 3/4 or under groups with guns costing under $400.00. As many have noted, with the guns companies are putting out these days, I'm a firm believer that it's more about finding the right reload and the ability of the shooter and less about how much the gun costs.


I've been looking at guns for about a year now. I've read just about everything I can get my hands on that deals with guns, loads, ballistics ect. So I think I'm starting to understand things.

Growing up I had a pos 7mm that would rattle my teeth everytime I shot it. It scoped me everytime I shot it! I hated shooting it! I didn't know any better because I bought it with my first job and nobody in my family hunted growing up. I sold it a few years ago and want to get a few good guns. "My bragging gun" Id like the savage long range hunter in 6.5 x 284 on paper shooting 140 grain bullets for deer, cow elk and long range coyotes. I however think the weight of the gun with a 5.5 x 20x50 night force scope will suck packing, so I also want to get a 7mm08 savage light weight hunter with 3x9 Leupold scope. both guns need to be shot by my kids and this is the reason I haven't looked at the 300 wsm or my favorite .270 caliber. I know the savage 7mmo8 light weight hunter should be good out to 350 yards on deer and I'm sure the long range 6.5 should be good out to 600 maybe more.

Now I just need to get them and start playing.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Your right, I had a Savage LRH in 6.5x284 and it was a heavy beast. Not one I would even consider for hunting which is why I sold it.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

swbuckmaster said:


> I've been looking at guns for about a year now. I've read just about everything I can get my hands on that deals with guns, loads, ballistics ect. So I think I'm starting to understand things.
> 
> Growing up I had a pos 7mm that would rattle my teeth everytime I shot it. It scoped me everytime I shot it! I hated shooting it! I didn't know any better because I bought it with my first job and nobody in my family hunted growing up. I sold it a few years ago and want to get a few good guns. "My bragging gun" Id like the savage long range hunter in 6.5 x 284 on paper shooting 140 grain bullets for deer, cow elk and long range coyotes. I however think the weight of the gun with a 5.5 x 20x50 night force scope will suck packing, so I also want to get a 7mm08 savage light weight hunter with 3x9 Leupold scope. both guns need to be shot by my kids and this is the reason I haven't looked at the 300 wsm or my favorite .270 caliber. I know the savage 7mmo8 light weight hunter should be good out to 350 yards on deer and I'm sure the long range 6.5 should be good out to 600 maybe more.
> 
> Now I just need to get them and start playing.


Watched a guy drop a buck this year from a touch over 600yds. with his 7mm-08. One shot one kill...he did mention that he practices quite a bit and seemed fairly unimpressed with the feat. You could always get the .270 and shoot light recoiling rounds through it with the little ones.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

The 7mmo8 is an impressive light back packing gun for deer. 
The 270 will do anything and that's why I've always liked it. For the life of me I can't figure out why I have to pick an odd caliber gun to play with. 



Bo0YaA what did you replace the 6.5 with?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Isn't the 7mm-08 just a .308 necked down to 7mm?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Isn't the 7mm-08 just a .308 necked down to 7mm?


Yes little faster, better BC, and slightly less recoil.


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## Watcher (Dec 31, 2008)

*I love all them 308s*

.243 Winchester
7mm-08 Remington
.308 Winchester
.338 Federal
.358 Winchester

You get the picture.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

What!!! No 260 Remington?


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## Watcher (Dec 31, 2008)

*Dang - I always learn something on UtahWildlife.net*



Loke said:


> What!!! No 260 Remington?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.260_Remington

.243 Winchester
.260 Remington
6.5mm Creedmore
7mm-08 Remington
.308 Winchester
.338 Federal
.358 Winchester

You get the picture.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

This past hunting season my gun of choice was the ballistically-challenged 460 Smith & Wesson:

10.5" barrel

open sights

factory ammo = CorBon 275 grain DPX

group size = a soda pop can at 100 yards 

BC = got me?


At 100 yards or less if you miss the pop can with the 460 S&W bullet the concussion moves the can a couple of feet. I'm too lazy to walk up to the can to see how many holes, if any, it has in it so I count that as a hit.

The DPX copper bullet is OK, but frankly any over-the-counter revolver ammo with 3 capital letters is fine.

.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

jshuag said:


> I am getting 3.5 inch groups out of a 7mm Rem mag at 200 yards using Nossler ammo 168. I was laughed out of Smith and Edwards when a fella told me he was getting dime sized groups out of his 223 at 400 yards. I then replied, "yes but I am in a sitting position using shooting sticks, is that what you are doing or are you shooting prone?" He quickly changed the subject.
> 
> I figured as much because he loads his own ammo as well.
> 
> Nonetheless I am trying to reproduce the shot I will most likely take while hunting. I don't find myself with prone shots always available.


Have you tried anything smaller? Some 7 mags love the 168-180, but a number of them I have worked with tighten up a lot with smaller rounds. If you want some ideas, specially for cheaper ones, let me know!

Not sure what rifle you have, but at 200 you should be able to tighten that.


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