# Mounting a scope



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Do you put Loctite on the screws that mount the rail or bases to the receiver? If so, what kind?

Do you use a torque screw driver or just tighten the screws until they break like I do?

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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Purple is whats recommended for tiny screws such as those but blue will work too. They are so small don't use the stronger stuff or you will have major troubles if you ever need to remove. I use just a tiny amount, a small dot on one side of the screw then mount it.

Are they slotted screws or hex? I use hex whenever possible. I like most people use the german "Gewdantighte" units of force.


-DallanC


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

torx this time Doesn't matter, I can break anything they throw at me.

I always use blue Loctite. Blue Loctite is free. :grin:

I ordered a fancy-dancy torque screwdriver set.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have found on certain firearms that I have that it doesn't matter what color of locking compound that I use that after a couple of years I need to remount the scopes. It doesn't matter how much I clean and degrease I usually manage to break the seal. 

But then the problem is usually on my Thomson Center single shots in the heaver calibers such as the .30 Herrett, .357 Herrett, 7-30 Waters, and others that deliver a beating on both ends.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I use blue Loctite and a Fat Wrench to torque to specs. Never had anything come loose including my 300wm Thompson Pro Hunter which as Critter says, delivers a beating on both ends. My buddy brought over his Rem 700 so I could mount his scope the other day and this is what I found. As you can see from the screw that didn't snap, they were tightened way to tight which is a common mistake.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I loathe broken off screws... worst I had was a broken off head bolt for a motorcycle. Had to take it to a machine shop in the end and they bored through the center of the bolt, then unwound the threads like a spring.


-DallanC


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I've been in the metal trades since 1967. I love broken screws, easy-outs, and those Heli-coil thingies...all great fun, piece a cake.

On the other hand, a broken easy-out is not fun, not fun at all.

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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> I have found on certain firearms that I have that it doesn't matter what color of locking compound that I use that after a couple of years I need to remount the scopes. It doesn't matter how much I clean and degrease I usually manage to break the seal.
> 
> Yep, especially on big bore handguns. I missed a big buck antelope because of a rail that came loose on my revolver. I've pretty much taken the scopes off my hunting revolvers, can't keep them tight even with 3 rings.
> 
> But then the problem is usually on my Thomson Center single shots in the heaver calibers such as the .30 Herrett, .357 Herrett, 7-30 Waters, and others that deliver a beating on both ends.  Short barrels or long? Are you doing anything to your triggers? The TC trigger on the G1s are lousy.


.......................


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The only pistols that I have scopes on are the Contenders. As for a G1 or a G2, there never was a G1 but everyone started calling the original Contender a G1 since they came out with the G2 Contender. 

I never did have to do anything with the trigger, it breaks nice and clean with no creep, I did adjust the over travel a little but not enough to bother. All my calibers are in the Super 14 except for the 7-30 which is a 12" hunter barrel which ends up being a 10" barrel with a muzzle brake. I should of gotten the 14" hunter in it but I also should of been born rich. The 12" hunter barrel drops the velocity of my hand-loads about 250 fps from the published velosities of a 14" barrel. 

I have just learned to check the scope mounts before I go hunting. I did one time have a mount come loose while hunting and that all but ended the hunt since I couldn't get one screw out on the rings with out drilling it to get to the base screw that was loose.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Bo0YaA said:


> I use blue Loctite and a Fat Wrench to torque to specs. Never had anything come loose including my 300wm Thompson Pro Hunter which as Critter says, delivers a beating on both ends. My buddy brought over his Rem 700 so I could mount his scope the other day and this is what I found. As you can see from the screw that didn't snap, they were tightened way to tight which is a common mistake.


yep



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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> The only pistols that I have scopes on are the Contenders. As for a G1 or a G2, there never was a G1 but everyone started calling the original Contender a G1 since they came out with the G2 Contender.
> 
> I never did have to do anything with the trigger, it breaks nice and clean with no creep, I did adjust the over travel a little but not enough to bother. All my calibers are in the Super 14 except for the 7-30 which is a 12" hunter barrel which ends up being a 10" barrel with a muzzle brake. I should of gotten the 14" hunter in it but I also should of been born rich. The 12" hunter barrel drops the velocity of my hand-loads about 250 fps from the published velosities of a 14" barrel.
> 
> I have just learned to check the scope mounts before I go hunting. I did one time have a mount come loose while hunting and that all but ended the hunt since I couldn't get one screw out on the rings with out drilling it to get to the base screw that was loose.


Mine are all small bore with 10" barrels, some with scopes, some without. I can't hit anything with 'em.

top of the page
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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> Mine are all small bore with 10" barrels, some with scopes, some without. I can't hit anything with 'em.
> 
> top of the page
> .


It takes a lot of practice to hit something off hand with a scope mounted Contender, I don't even try unless I am just goofing off at the range. If I am hunting I will always use a rest of some kind. Now the ones that I still have open sights on they are still a get a little hard trying to line up on a target or animal with the Super 14 barrels.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I am of the opinion that Loctite on firearms is a bad thing...always.
Proper torque (screw stretch) should do it. If not you need a bigger screw (with it's higher torque spec., therefore higher clamping strength) or more bearing surface (wider rings or lapping), not glue.
I mount 10-15 scopes a week. I clean the screws and the holes and torque them with a Wheeler Fat Wrench.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Cooky said:


> Wheeler Fat Wrench.


Hey that looks snazzy! (I just googled it). Better let the significant other know it would make a great fathers day present 

-DallanC


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

They are pretty sweet. I was shocked the first time I mounted the base to specs and realized its not nearly as tight as I have always tightened it lol. Good tool to have on the bench for sure.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

The torque specs for most bases and rings is from 20-32 *inch* pounds. If you over torque the little guys you surpass their yield strength and they are no longer trying to spring back, therefore they are providing very little clamping force.


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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

Wheeler Fat Wrench is worth every penny.
So nice to hear that "click" and know you are there.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> It takes a lot of practice to hit something off hand with a scope mounted Contender, I don't even try unless I am just goofing off at the range. If I am hunting I will always use a rest of some kind. Now the ones that I still have open sights on they are still a get a little hard trying to line up on a target or animal with the Super 14 barrels.


A rest? Is that fair? lol

My eyesight is going south. I'm having as much trouble with scopes as with open sights.

The "big" gun store here in Hooterville uses the Wheeler torque wrench yellow thingie.

I need a 6-48 bottom tap; got one somewhere.

Good grief, guns are complicated. I mean what's the point? One look at me or Mrs Goob and a thug is gonna run the other way. And hell, I can buy meat at a store, even drive one of those wheeler thingies up there ta get it (uh...if I had one of those wheeler thingies)


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

Here is some info I once posted on another gun forum. I am no expert but some people are. This info was largely taken in part from the article *"Advanced Scope Mounting" by John Barsness* - _American Rifleman_ magazine - December 2008.

Definition - Farmer-Tight: _When a screw is torqued right to the point of fastener yield, or so tight it's crushing what it's screwed to. A term derived from the process to prevent being two miles from the barn and having a few bolts work loose on farm equipment. See also: Good-n-tight; A quarter turn shy'a strippin; Just short of blew torque, etc._

Most everybody understands the basics of assembling the rings and bases and mounting the scope so that it has proper eye relief and the crosshairs are not canted etc; but there can be more issues that crop up from time to time. We will cover those issues first and end with scope placement.

*OVER-TIGHTENING ISSUES*

The sad truth is that you can take a brand new quality scope and either damage it, or make it malfunction just by how you mounted the scope on your rifle. Mounting a scope and rings on a rifle isn't rocket science, and it is a fairly easy task for most of us to do. However, there are some things to know that go against our normal way of thinking.

Most guys figure "MORE IS ALWAYS BETTER" but this attitude can lead to some SERIOUS PROBLEMS with scope mounting.
There has been a spate of complaints from various shooters. These range from "ring marks" on scopes, to expensive scopes that don't work right out of the box. Now anything made by humans can be defective, but an awful lot of the ring marks and bad scopes can be blamed on screwdriver crunching. An average hunting scope is a relatively thin aluminum tube with an "erector tube" inside, designed to be moved precisely inside the exterior tube. In variable scopes, the erector tube moves both side-to-side and lengthwise inside the erector tube. This is how scopes are adjusted for point-of-impact and magnification.

Now take the ring clamp commonly known as a scope-mount ring, and tighten the clamp until the exterior tube is semi-crushed. It's only natural that the scope fails to work the way it's supposed to, whereupon it's sent to the manufacturer because it was "defective right from the factory."

Some people damage there scopes because they have read that you need to ream scope rings. This process supposedly aligns and precisely sizes the insides of the mounted rings, allowing any scope to be mounted perfectly. When those people ream the rings with a special tool, the normally do so until the original insides of the rings are gone. Often the inside of the rings end up with nice sharp edges. 
When they tighten the rings around their new scope so much metal has been reamed away that you have to really farmer-tighten the ring screws to hold the scope at all. The sharpened edges of his reamed rings bite right into the scope creating the unsightly ring marks.

I'd guess that _the majority of the ring marks and scope problems encountered are due to over-tightening the rings_.
_[See the footnote at the bottom for more insight on the overtightening issue as applied in a non-scope ring context]_

A modern scope is slightly flexible. In fact, the flexibility of the main tube is why we don't have to tighten the ring screws farmer tight. With just the right amount of tightening, the flexible tube presses against the rings and will stay in place despite considerable recoil. This is especially true with today's matte-finish scopes and matte-finish rings, but will also work with gloss rings and scopes mounted on a .416 Rem. Mag! The scope on the hard-kicking .416 stayed in place and didn't receive any ring marks.
The reason? Using only 20 inch-pounds of torque to tighten the ring screws.

Gary Turner of Talley [_premium rings_] recommends using 20 inch-pounds of torque to tighten Talley steel rings.
For the company's Lightweight rings, the aluminum model with integral bases, Turner recommends 15 to 17 inch-pounds. 
D'Arcy Echols [_an internationally known custom rifle firm in Logan UT_] recommends tightening the 6-48 screws on their custom-made mount rings to 16 to 17 inch-pounds and the heavier 8-40 screws on the bases to 35 inch-pounds.
Garth Kendig, one of Leupold's technical guys, recommends 28 inch-pounds on Leupold's 8-40 ring screws and 18 inch-pounds on their 6-48 base screws [note the reversal of screw sizes between Echols and Leupold]
Warne recommends 25 inch-pounds for their Torx screws. In fact they sell their TW1 Torque Wrench this is a simple break-away design when 25 inch-pounds are reached - for use on all their rings and bases. If a person was to install very many scopes, this would be a good investment.

So we learn that you tighten:
*6-48* screws to *16 to 18* inch-pounds
*8-40* screws to *28 to 35* inch-pounds
Check your ring and base manufacturer's suggested torque specs if there is any doubt, or at least find out what size screw they are using for which part of the ring/base set. Some report slightly different torque values when they talk to Leupold tech support, but the main thing is not to get them farmer-tight.

How much force is 15 to 20 inch-pounds? I can loosen a Torx-head screw tightened to 15 inch-pounds while holding a typical screwdriver handle by the thumb and first two fingers of my [_dominant - average_] hand - therefore, using the same hold provides about the right amount of torque to the rings when installing them.
Another good tip is to use the factory supplied Allen or Torx driver that the mount manufacturer supplies - holding the short end in your hand and tighten as tight as you can with the ~1" lever and you will never have a problem with things loosening or getting it farmer-tight. Remember, just snug - definitely not as tight as you can get them with all the leverage you can muster.

Brownells offers a Magna-Tip Adjustable Torque Handle that can be set to any inch-pound rating from 10 to 70. A bit pricy for just one or two applications at $149.95 but some people may use it for other purposes as well. There are also other commercial torque wrenches available or perhaps one already in your tool box.

If slippage in a high-recoil gun might be, or has been, an issue M.L. (Mic) McPherson offers the following tips:
Make sure you thoroughly clean and degrease the scope tube and rings, then apply Loctite 609 to the ring/scope interface. Bonding strength of Loctite 609 exceeds 3,000 psi. Surface area of two 1-inch rings is about 3.24 square inches, so bonding strength - ignoring friction - will exceed 10,000 pounds, which should be adequate. Even a most onerous gun with a relatively heavy scope installed generates only about one-fifth this amount of recoil force between scope and rings.
He also recommends using Locktite 609 to bed your base installation. Wait for the bed to cure, then remove the base screws, clean and reinstall them with BLUE 242 Loctite and tighten. Then proceed to the ring installation.

LOCTITE® 609 Retaining Compound is designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration. It is available from: www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=667024

****************************************************************

TIGHTNESS ISSUES IN OTHER ARENAS - THE PROBLEM ELSEWHERE

Tom Houseworth is the crew chief for the Ben Spies' Yoshimura Suzuki GSX-R 1000 that won the 2008 AMA Superbike Championship. As such he is well aware of tightening issues in a high-RPM racing engine. Talking about torqueing connecting-rod cap bolts in particular, but with obvious application everywhere, he relates:
"Bolts are very stiff springs, preloaded by correct tightening to clamp the parts together. If you stretch them too little, they come loose. If you stretch them too much, the metal yields and, again, they fail by being too loose."
>Cycle World - Feb 2009 - "The Last Superbike" pg.46<


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks Frisco, very interesting, informative.

I finally got a 6-48 bottom tap. So first I took a 6-48 plug tap and "cleaned" the threads out on the firearm's receiver. The threads in all four holes were rough. Then I took the bottom tap and cleaned them further, deeper, removing any remnants of the galled threads in the one hole that was previously over-tightened.

I have a Weaver torque wrench so I will tighten the base and ring screws between 15 in-lbs and 100 in-lbs depending on what gun forum or gun magazine I read last.

And I will use Weaver Surethread screw glue from now on. It's the same as Loctite 242, although it's not free. ;-)



I'm a little disappointed with the fit and finish of the latest Howa 1500 I have. Other 1500s (pre-Legacy Sports) of mine were fine.

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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

Something not mentioned in the "Advanced Scope Mounting" article is bedding the scope base. I have yet to find a one-piece base that fits perfectly with the corresponding rifle surface. If the scope base has flex, and bends when tightened down, it will also cause stress to the scope tube itself.
Here are very easy step by step instructions:


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