# Private land cow elk tags



## Withabow (Sep 18, 2013)

Just looked at the proclamation for cow elk tags. There are 1000 new tags for Chalk Creek private lands only. That's on top of the regular 350 regular Chalk Creek cow tags (which often go undersubscribed), 20 East Fork CWMU tags, 40 Grass Valley CWMU tags, 20 Two Bear CWMU tags and 40 Weber Florence Creek CWMU tags. Almost all big the landowners in there (who aren't already a CWMU) lease out their ground and charge around $500.00 to hunt with the regular Chalk Creek cow tag. I can't imagine very many hunters will be willing to pony up $500.00 for a cow tag. Am I wrong or is the division chasing its tail on this one?


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I believe you are right in stating that a very large number of hunters will not pay $500 to shoot a cow. The DWR has to try and do something to bring elk numbers into objective though. Issuing tags is one way to do so, and if landowners are unwilling to work with hunters on access, the DWR can point the finger squarely at them and say "we tried, but you didn't allow hunters reasonable access to take care of the issue/problem". My take anyway.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Withabow said:


> Just looked at the proclamation for cow elk tags. There are 1000 new tags for Chalk Creek private lands only. That's on top of the regular 350 regular Chalk Creek cow tags (which often go undersubscribed), 20 East Fork CWMU tags, 40 Grass Valley CWMU tags, 20 Two Bear CWMU tags and 40 Weber Florence Creek CWMU tags. Almost all big the landowners in there (who aren't already a CWMU) lease out their ground and charge around $500.00 to hunt with the regular Chalk Creek cow tag. I can't imagine very many hunters will be willing to pony up $500.00 for a cow tag. Am I wrong or is the division chasing its tail on this one?


This isn't counting all the individual landowners that get deprivation/mitigation (or whatever you call them) tags as well. Most of them on larger tracts of land sell those as well.

But I agree with MWScott72, they have to try something. I don't mind those tags at all.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Really, $500 access fee isn't all that bad for a cow elk tag. I'd bet that most guys spend at least that much in most cases to chase elk on public lands. So if $500 can get me a private lands hunt, even for cow elk, that really isn't that bad of a deal if I can be pretty dang sure that I get one.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> I believe you are right in stating that a very large number of hunters will not pay $500 to shoot a cow.


Cow tags sell on KSL for $750 alllllllll day long. Once you get into January and closer to the season end they will start dropping to half that.

-DallanC


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I have yet to meet a cow Elk worth $550 plus hunting expenses.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

KineKilla said:


> I have yet to meet a cow Elk worth $550 plus hunting expenses.


Agreed!


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Back when my grandpa and all the neighboring ranchers were selling depredation cow tags for their land on the Zion unit, they sold them for $50 a piece. Sounds like they may have really been selling themselves short haha.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Most cows aren't worth the price in fuel if you have the butcher package the meat let alone pay a trespass fee on top of it. It's way cheaper to just buy beef. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Most cows aren't worth the price in fuel if you have the butcher package the meat let alone pay a trespass fee on top of it. It's way cheaper to just buy beef.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Here ya go:
"An approximate total cost of a half beef from an average carcass would be as follows: A half of a 700 pound carcass yields 350 pounds and when multiplied by $3.50/pound equals $1225. Then add in the kill fee of $30 ($60 divided by 2) plus the cut and wrap charges (350 pounds X 65 cents a pound which is $228) and the disposal fee of $5 ($10 divided by 2). So, you would pay us $1225 and Jerry's Meats $263."

Full link,

http://www.martinfamilyranchoregon.com/our-beef-and-prices.html


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Outdoor life a few years back did a big article on the cost of meat off of a whitetail deer, they had it at over $1200 for all of the various cuts based on what farm raised deer go for at sale.

Locals might balk at a $500 elk tag but out of staters not only pay more than, they also pay to fly in, rent a car, motel, pay to have meat butchered and shipped back. Some of those guys are spending over $2k for their cow elk.


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

But how many hunters from out of state are coming to Utah for a cow hunt? I doubt that there are very many except for transplanted Utah residents. 

But you can also put the having to have the meat butchered and taken care of for residents hunters. How many threads are started by resident hunters on butchers in the fall? 

There are a lot of resident hunters that will spend the $500 for the tag and then another $500 for the butcher along with what they will spend to go on the hunt.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Yeah, there are lots of people of both residencies that pay up to $3k for a guided cow tag. I think land acres for the $500-1500 range is very likely depending on the property.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I think I understand the "logic" behind the new Private Land tags but I doubt they'll accomplish what was intended.

I take issue with landowners that charge a high dollar fee to trespass in order to access what is otherwise a public natural resource. 

Many of these landowners already receive subsidies from the tax payers to cover things like drought damage, weather damage, etc. So they sell their cattle ($), at times receive government funds to do so ($$) and now they can make large profits off of sportsmen as well ($$$) most of which will flow under the table and not be taxed as income.

I choose to just hunt the public land in the first place and deal with the crowds because I pay enough for beef all year long that I don't feel the need to support their cause any further.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

I say let the elk eat them out of house and home. They get tired of buying hay to supplement winter feed maybe they will start being a little more cooperative and a little more reasonable with the trespass fees. The latest round of "private Property tags" is a joke.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

bugchuker said:


> I say let the elk eat them out of house and home. They get tired of buying hay to supplement winter feed maybe they will start being a little more cooperative and a little more reasonable with the trespass fees. The latest round of "private Property tags" is a joke.


Uhhhh ..... you do know landowners can just shoot'em right? The whole idea of extra compensation / hunting is to STOP landowners from just legally killing them. You really want us to go back several decades to what it was before? /boggle



> *R657-44-4. Landowner or Lessee Authorized to Kill Big Game Animals.*
> 
> (1) The landowner or lessee is authorized to kill big game animals damaging cultivated crops on cleared and planted land pursuant to Section 23-16-3.1.


-DallanC


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Uhhhh ..... you do know landowners can just shoot'em right? The whole idea of extra compensation / hunting is to STOP landowners from just legally killing them. You really want us to go back several decades to what it was before? /boggle
> 
> -DallanC


I didn't know that. I guess that makes it ok to charge unrealistic access fees or tag fees.


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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

After seeing how bad hunters/recreationalists treat private property I can understand why they charge so much. People can be very disrespectful and have a sense of entitlement. While I agree most aren't this way, it happens. And wishing the elk would eat them out of house and home is pretty short sided way of looking at it. I am sure if the roles were reversed your point of view would be a lot different.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Since when did hunting actually become an economical way of acquiring meat? Maybe 20+ years ago, but in my opinion, it's not anymore.

Here is a breakdown of my expected and estimated cost for one elk hunt this fall:
$285 tag
$450 muzzleloader, scope, powder, bullets, etc. (I would have never purchased a ml if I didn't draw this tag.)
$363.28 gas (2,744 miles for 4 roundtrips - 3 scouting and 1 hunting. Assuming that gas prices stay the same at $2.39 a gallon, I will use 152 gallons of gas to get down and back. 152 gallons x $2.39=$363.28 )
$500 camp stuff, food for 4 people for a week, propane, etc. 

Grand total - $1598.28 (this doesn't include meat processing supplies, etc.) if I get 250 pounds of cut and wrapped meat, that meat cost me $6.39 a pound.

I don't think the vast majority of us hunt because it is economical. We hunt because its a tradition, a family event, our heritage, and a host of other reasons. In all honesty, time in the outdoors with family hunting is worth $6.39 a pound for meat, or $750 for a trespass fee.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Since when did hunting actually become an economical way of acquiring meat? Maybe 20+ years ago, but in my opinion, it's not anymore.
> 
> Here is a breakdown of my expected and estimated cost for one elk hunt this fall:
> $285 tag
> ...


This is flawed. You are citing a bull elk tag, this topic is based on cow hunting.

Also, once you have the ML, all subsequent hunts are don't have that cost, plus if you wanted to you could probably have just borrowed a smokepoke off someone and eliminated that entire part of your cost, A person doesnt need scouting trips for cows, especially on private ground.

Want an eye opening fact? Last year it cost me less than $60 total for our elk. Show me any sales on beef or chicken that nets more meat than came off an elk for that much money.

Here's the breakdown: Tag = Free (mitigation). Gas, $55 (and we burned probably only 1/3 of that). Bullets were reloads, cost less than $0.50 each. We hauled it out and cut it up ourselves. We re-use our foodsaver bags so there is very little cost for vaccu-packing the meat before we freeze it.

Some of us still do it on the cheap.

-DallanC


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I had a hard time with $285 for LE tag. I think the $50.00 or $60.00 for a cow tag is about what it is worth.
I have done a couple of CWMU cow hunts that were worth the price of the draw tag but certainly would not spend the amount they were charging the paid hunters.
But then I have never been a Disney Land type person for a vacation either.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

DallanC said:


> This is flawed. You are citing a bull elk tag, this topic is based on cow hunting.
> 
> Also, once you have the ML, all subsequent hunts are don't have that cost, plus if you wanted to you could probably have just borrowed a smokepoke off someone and eliminated that entire part of your cost, A person doesnt need scouting trips for cows, especially on private ground.
> 
> ...


I completely agree that it is flawed, as it was an example that doesn't apply to everyone. But then again, the example of $60 for your elk is flawed as well - although, I think it is freaking cool! How many people fall into my example? Not many. How many people fall into your example? Not many. For the majority of hunters, hunting is not an economical way of acquiring meat. How many of us really, completely rely on the hunting as a way of putting food on the table?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Cost of meat, you say?






This explains it well.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

For me I won't pay for trespass fees and won't put alot of effort in tagging a cow. I've personally been on 9 rifle cow hunts and 4 rifle bull hunts in 20 years with friends and family. None of the hunts have taken more then 1 day to fill the tag. Maybe I'm lucky. I process what ever we shoot so cost for elk hunt comes down to less than a tank of fuel, price of tag and a few bullets. Also lucky a half a cow doesn't cost much because wife's family raises them

Archery elk hunts have costed me quite a bit. Spent alot of time trying and havent killed an elk.

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## hatch000 (Aug 4, 2011)

A trespass fee alone could easily surpass the costs I spend on average per year to hunt cow elk on private property.

I have been fortunate enough to have found a landowner who GIVES me landowner vouchers for cow elk every year. One to me and one to my brother. He could easily get 500$ per voucher.
Here is my average expenses for cow elk:

60$ tag fee from the voucher

30$ in gas per day (I average 4 to 5 trips to get it done) 120$ total in gas
each way is an hour drive

its a day trip so we pack a lunch. You gotta eat anyways.

Butcher costs average about 300$

One cow elk shot,cleaned,cut and wrapped is about 500$ per year for me.
That 500$ cow elk will feed my family for 12 months.
For 10 of those 12 months, I won't buy beef.

This has been my experience over the last 4 years.

But I also volunteer my time on his property in the spring and summer fixing fences, cutting down dead trees, etc.

A cow elk to me is a meat hunt. Period! No exceptions. If the total cost for that elk meat exceeds 500$, I'll just go buy half a beef cow.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Uhhhh ..... you do know landowners can just shoot'em right? The whole idea of extra compensation / hunting is to STOP landowners from just legally killing them. You really want us to go back several decades to what it was before? /boggle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does purchased hay or winter feed constitute cultivated crops? Many of these hunts take place in the winter when there are no crops in place.

If those landowners had been killing the elk anytime they set foot on their property, surely that pressure would have pushed them back onto the public land.

Isn't that exactly what the new private only tags are intended to do?

I hope this plan works but I'm having a hard time seeing how it is anything more than a way for both the DWR and landowners to make a profit off the wildlife.


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## nickcoleman (Apr 29, 2016)

Guess I'm one of those who would be willing to pay the $500 for the right cow elk mitigation tag (right = has a reasonable harvest history). I'd rather eat elk than beef and there's something to be said about harvesting what you eat. So, even if it ends up costing a bit more in the end than buying a beef ... I'm OK with that.

We normally hunt cows down south (San Juan/Blanding) and have had close to a 100% take over the years probably because the herds don't get as much hunting pressure.

This year haven't been able to get a tag from the normal source. If anyone has mitigation tags for sale or a reasonable source, please PM me ... it would be very much appreciated.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

What's funny is high fence places charge $1500 to $2000 for a pretend cow hunt and get it all day long. They sell it for more to restaurants.

Look at the areas they are in. Ogden is where I hold mine. The population quadrupled a couple years ago. Ogden is 90% private. After one day of flock shooting in middle fork the elk say screw this. They go to private land. Then, the owner MIGHT hunt, and if he does the odds get worse that he let's anyone else. 

I prefer these to the crazy season tags they were doing that were doubled up with control permits. I don't know enough about the new system, but I would imagine based on other rules CWMU have, these are NOT valid there. Also, it's a pretty small amount of tags and elk aren't a high success hunt.

As for the trespass fees, I have read a whole bunch of estimates and speculation... guessing or assuming doesn't get people to far. Worked up over nothing at this point IMO.

Glad they tried something different. The massive amounts of control tags and other things weren't working and weren't specific to one unit.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm with CPAjeff. Meat hunters don't always hunt for economics regardless of hunting bulls or cows. None of us should pay anything outside of our means certainly but I would MUCH rather bring home my own lean wild game than save a few bucks buying store stocked beef any day. Most years I prefer to shoot a cow over a bull anyway. The antlers look nice on the wall but the meat lasts quite a while and has become a big part of my families regular diet.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

The idea behind the landowner tags isn't just about harvest. It is also about distribution of elk. Lots of public land pressure pushes elk to private lands in larger numbers. This creates problems for landowners of course but also frustration for hunters who can't find elk. By taking away nearly all public land tags and issuing a big portion of private land tags the idea is to get the elk to spread out from the pressure and redistribute back to public grounds. Once that happens we will attempt to balance out the pressure to keep elk as evenly distributed as possible. The heavy private land tags are meant to put as much pressure on the elk as possible more than is it about actually harvesting elk.


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## mlob1one (Aug 29, 2014)

bullsnot said:


> The idea behind the landowner tags isn't just about harvest. It is also about distribution of elk. Lots of public land pressure pushes elk to private lands in larger numbers. This creates problems for landowners of course but also frustration for hunters who can't find elk. By taking away nearly all public land tags and issuing a big portion of private land tags the idea is to get the elk to spread out from the pressure and redistribute back to public grounds. Once that happens we will attempt to balance out the pressure to keep elk as evenly distributed as possible. The heavy private land tags are meant to put as much pressure on the elk as possible more than is it about actually harvesting elk.


I totally get that, but my issue with this is how are these landowners going to feel the pressure and open up their land to responsible hunters interested in both filling thier freezer and conservation of the wildlife & ecosystem?

I have been shut down on several very nice attempts to ask for access to hunt on private without shelling out big bucks.

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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

mlob1one said:


> I totally get that, but my issue with this is how are these landowners going to feel the pressure and open up their land to responsible hunters interested in both filling thier freezer and conservation of the wildlife & ecosystem?
> 
> I have been shut down on several very nice attempts to ask for access to hunt on private without shelling out big bucks.


It is hard because we can't force the landowners to allow access but on the other hand we've clearly told them don't complain about too many elk on your property because now you've been given an option.


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## mlob1one (Aug 29, 2014)

bullsnot said:


> It is hard because we can't force the landowners to allow access but on the other hand we've clearly told them don't complain about too many elk on your property because now you've been given an option.


Read you loud and clear. My follow up question(s) then becomes... What happens next year? I'm curious about "next steps."
-If landowners don't allow much access (as has been my experience so far this year without paying big fees or at all) will the DNR continue with this strategy?

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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

mlob1one said:


> Read you loud and clear. My follow up question(s) then becomes... What happens next year? I'm curious about "next steps."
> -If landowners don't allow much access (as has been my experience so far this year without paying big fees or at all) will the DNR continue with this strategy?
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk


It's hard to say for sure at this point but I can't imagine sticking with this strategy if it's not effective. This was intended to be a short term solution, not a long term solution.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Well said Bull. Although I hope this is a long-term solution. I hope this idea works and pressures elk back onto accessible public lands and that it can continue. No reason to stop private lands tags if the elk do move back onto public lands.

It is unfortunate that all can not participate, but who really wants to open their private lands to the general public? Pay the price of friendship, sweat, or cash to be able to enjoy the fruits of other's labor.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Packout said:


> Well said Bull. Although I hope this is a long-term solution. I hope this idea works and pressures elk back onto accessible public lands and that it can continue. No reason to stop private lands tags if the elk do move back onto public lands.


Well when I say this is short term solution I'm speaking specifically about the ratio of private to public tags. The short term solution was to make it heavy towards private and then balance that out as time goes on to keep pressure even but still allow a good opportunity to hunt cows on public ground.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Everyone should read this in full:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/private-lands-elk.html

They have supplemented a lot of those control tags and crazy season tags, which I am a big fan of getting rid of. This seems like a more effective way to keep the elk spread out, and to actually harvest more elk with less pressure. Ogden is 90% private, but was allowing control permits as well as crazy seasons running from August into January. The public was using these, and there is basically 2 public places to hunt in Ogden. It's pretty easy for the elk to leave those 2 spots. There was also lots of lobs and flock shots going on. They were recovering dozens of then-wounded now-dead cows that wandered to the private grounds these border. Ogden biologists said point blank that not enough private ground hunting was happening.

I didn't love the control permit and late season increase as a solution. I think this will really help. And the number of tags are minimal. Most these areas are the same ones they have been trying to fix for years with no success, so kudos for a new approach.

Also, I think it was mentioned earlier the hint that CWMU and the likes can use these... It clearly states that elk CWMU are exempt.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

RandomElk16 said:


> They have supplemented a lot of those control tags and crazy season tags, which I am a big fan of getting rid of. This seems like a more effective way to keep the elk spread out, and to actually harvest more elk with less pressure. Ogden is 90% private, but was allowing control permits as well as crazy seasons running from August into January. The public was using these, and there is basically 2 public places to hunt in Ogden. It's pretty easy for the elk to leave those 2 spots. There was also lots of lobs and flock shots going on. They were recovering dozens of then-wounded now-dead cows that wandered to the private grounds these border. Ogden biologists said point blank that not enough private ground hunting was happening.


Random, you bring up the Ogden elk... which I think is an interesting case study. This year tag numbers for all the cow hunts were increased AND there are still control tags AND now private lands tags are available. The regular cow tags and control tags clearly aren't working (I mean they are working for me because I buy or draw one every year) in the way that the DWR has hoped and it is because of all the private land you speak of.

My experience with the private land owners up there is probably not all that dissimilar to experiences had by others in other parts of the state. I had the Nov-Dec cow tag last year and while sitting in the parking lot of the WMA right after Christmas there was a huge herd just on the other side of the fence. Asking a few questions I was emphatically told that rancher allows _nobody_ on his land to hunt... but I'm sure with that number of elk on his land he's doing his share of calling and complaining for mitigation.

Based off this interaction (and other interactions) I have to disagree, I don't think that simply having tags designated "private lands" is going to change the minds of any of these ranchers who have kept their gates closed in the past. Ranchers that do decide to open their gates for these tags will do so at a premium cost through trespass fees. I don't fault the landowner for this, it is his property and he has every right to make it profitable. I would never allow some stranger to come into my backyard and just begin picking vegetables from my garden... however, I would not be opposed to selling you a bushel of tomatoes for a reasonable (to me, maybe not to you) price.

I think that the only way to get the private lands tags to be of any benefit would be to incentivize the landowner. I like the voucher program that Wyoming uses and I think it could open some doors. My other thought is for the DWR to leverage the landowner's participation in allowing their lands to be hunted against the landowner if there are requests later on for mitigation.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Can you explain the Wyoming voucher system to those of us who are not "in the know" on that?


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Can you explain the Wyoming voucher system to those of us who are not "in the know" on that?


Wyoming landowners receive $16 for each elk, deer, or antelope harvested on their deeded lands. The coupons are included on each license, and hunters who harvest on private land return the coupons to the landowners. The landowner coupon program was established by the Wyoming Game and Fish Commision in 1934 to partially compensate landowners for forage consumed by big game on their property. The coupon program was passed into state law by the Wyoming Legislature in 1939.

"Private land makes up about half of Wyoming and provides some of the best wildlife habitat we have. While the landowner coupon program started a long time ago, its value remains," said Scott Talbott, Director of the Wyoming Game and Fish Department. "These coupons show the people of Wyoming's appreciation of landowners' role in maintaining a healthy wildlife population as well as access for hunters."


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

If I recall, the elk do not belong specifically to the landowner they belong to all the citizens of Utah. That being the case if the landowner doesn't allow hunting on his property he shouldn't receive any tags in excess of the standard number allowed to each hunter. I totally get landowners not wanting to open up their property to hunting or hunting without charging exorbitant fees but guess what, the elk don't belong JUST to you. If the elk are REALLY causing such heartburn for the landowner then let him allow ethical, good hunters on there to pay a fair price and rid him of his elk problems.


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## mlob1one (Aug 29, 2014)

I may know a state legislator or two and will discuss with them modeling/duplicating Wyoming's voucher program. That idea makes sense to me.

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

$16 per elk off the property? I still don't see where the financial incentive on that is at? 

If I'm a landowner, I can charge a $160 trespass fee for one of these private land cow tags. I think most would agree that $160 is probably below what people will charge. But that is one hunter on my land hunting elk, whereas this $16 coupon idea would require 10 hunters actually killing elk on my land for the same amount of financial benefit. If I charged a $300 trespass fee for one chance to hunt elk, we're now talking 20 successful hunters before I break even. 

I would love this idea to go into effect in Utah. And if it works in Wyoming, it may work here. But I espouse the "work smarter not harder" mentality for most things, and I know what I would do if I were a landowner faced with that decision. 

Is there anything in the Wyoming rules that prevents charging a trespass fee? Can they double dip, meaning charge the trespass fee and then get the coupon as well? Or does the access have to be free to qualify for the coupon?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

mlob1one said:


> I may know a state legislator or two and will discuss with them modeling/duplicating Wyoming's voucher program. That idea makes sense to me.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk


This would likely be more of a RAC/Wildlife Board issue than a legislature issue. I'm sure it has come up in the past although I haven't been privy to those conversations. It would be worth discussing again though, especially if the private land only tags don't bear much fruit, particularly on the Wasatch.

The question will be though how much will it take to be an effective incentive and how would the program be funded?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I have hunted WY for going on 3 decades. In the beginning, I found that many ranchers liked the vouchers and were open to hunters. Now it seems that many don't even care about the voucher, claiming it is more hassle than they are worth, and many are tired of hunters accessing and using their lands without any skin in the game. Some large rangeland ranches still like them. But Utah has made a different culture over the past 20 years-- CWMUs mean $7-12 per acre leases on private rangelands of 10,000 acres= $70-120,000. That is with 20-50 hunters. 

Think about it-- if you owned 640 acres within the Wasatch Elk Unit, would you just open the doors to the public to hunt on it? Or would you require some form of payment (friendship, sweat, money) to use your property? Taxes, spray, fencing, maintenance, etc.... all cost money. Then having more people on your place at the time you want to be there too? Hard to sell a private landowner in letting a complete stranger on to hunt and take without giving much in return.


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## mlob1one (Aug 29, 2014)

bullsnot said:


> This would likely be more of a RAC/Wildlife Board issue than a legislature issue. I'm sure it has come up in the past although I haven't been privy to those conversations. It would be worth discussing again though, especially if the private land only tags don't bear much fruit, particularly on the Wasatch.
> 
> The question will be though how much will it take to be an effective incentive and how would the program be funded?


Derekp1999 stated that it was brought up by the wildlife dept and ratified by the legislature in WY.

Clearly something needs & ought to be done because the circular discussion I keep seeing is just making me dizzy.

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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

mlob1one said:


> Derekp1999 stated that it was brought up by the wildlife dept and ratified by the legislature in WY.
> 
> Clearly something needs & ought to be done because the circular discussion I keep seeing is just making me dizzy.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk


The way Wyoming and Utah are structured are a bit different. There are a few things the legislature gets involved in but for the most part the RAC and Wildlife Board handles these types of issues in Utah.

We've put in several things and worked on several landowner issues over the years associated with depredation tags, CWMU's and Landowner associations to name a few.

The problem is just what Packout mentioned. It is finding an incentive that is really worth it to landowners that we can afford. That's a difficult balance to find.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> $16 per elk off the property? I still don't see where the financial incentive on that is at?
> 
> If I'm a landowner, I can charge a $160 trespass fee for one of these private land cow tags. I think most would agree that $160 is probably below what people will charge. But that is one hunter on my land hunting elk, whereas this $16 coupon idea would require 10 hunters actually killing elk on my land for the same amount of financial benefit. If I charged a $300 trespass fee for one chance to hunt elk, we're now talking 20 successful hunters before I break even.
> 
> ...


I don't see anything preventing a landowner from charging a trespass or any other fee. In fact, the ranch that I hunted doe antelope on last year is leased by a guide service during the general buck/bull seasons. Their website lists their buck deer hunt at a couple thousand dollars guided. I'm sure that compared to those lease and guide fees the four $16 coupons he got from my hunting group are probably about as valuable four squares of used Charmin... but it's still better than nothing and more than what is offered to landowners here in Utah (at least to my knowledge). And since ALL tags are printed with a coupon not only do they pocket those lease/guide fees but he gets the coupon as well on the buck/bull tags.

For letting a couple of respectful guys go out and plink a handful of doe pronghorn from his fields he pocketed $64 for doing absolutely nothing. I understand that $16 is barely enough to take the Mrs. out for a nice dinner at Arby's... but would you rather have an additional $16 or an additional $0?

And I don't know if the Wyoming Game and Fish tracks those coupons that these ranchers redeem... but it would seem to me that this would be an easy way to hold some landowners a little bit more accountable. Maybe it's just me, but if I were the F&G I would be a little bit more willing to help out a landowner who has turned in a handful of these vouchers compared to a landowner who has not when the calls for mitigation reimbursement are made?


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

bullsnot said:


> The problem is just what Packout mentioned. It is finding an incentive that is really worth it to landowners that we can afford. That's a difficult balance to find.


THIS is the key to making these private lands tags truly successful... finding that balance that makes it worth it for the private landowner.

The model that WY uses is just one way that neighboring states are attempting to balance private land with a public resource. The wording that I copied and pasted from the Wyoming F&G website clearly states that this program is to _partially_ compensate landowners so I'm certain WY does a number of other things along with the voucher program to attempt to deal with this.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> Is there anything in the Wyoming rules that prevents charging a trespass fee? Can they double dip, meaning charge the trespass fee and then get the coupon as well? Or does the access have to be free to qualify for the coupon?


Nope, they can double dip! There is a ranch in Northeastern Wyoming that I hunt for buck antelope every couple years. The landowner charges me $300 for opening day for access to 12,000 acres. The unit always has leftover tags, and I never have to worry about where to hunt! He has stated, though, that the landowner coupons are more hassle than they are worth - but I really like the idea behind it and for some it works, for others, it doesn't.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

derekp1999 said:


> Random, you bring up the Ogden elk... which I think is an interesting case study. This year tag numbers for all the cow hunts were increased AND there are still control tags AND now private lands tags are available. The regular cow tags and control tags clearly aren't working (I mean they are working for me because I buy or draw one every year) in the way that the DWR has hoped and it is because of all the private land you speak of.
> 
> My experience with the private land owners up there is probably not all that dissimilar to experiences had by others in other parts of the state. I had the Nov-Dec cow tag last year and while sitting in the parking lot of the WMA right after Christmas there was a huge herd just on the other side of the fence. Asking a few questions I was emphatically told that rancher allows _nobody_ on his land to hunt... but I'm sure with that number of elk on his land he's doing his share of calling and complaining for mitigation.
> 
> Based off this interaction (and other interactions) I have to disagree, I don't think that simply having tags designated "private lands" is going to change the minds of any of these ranchers who have kept their gates closed in the past. I don't think it will change their mind to access either. What it does do is encourage them to help. For example, I am a landowner in ogden and DO NOT usually cow hunt there. However, since these tags don't affect my bonus points for elk, and allow me to hunt antlerless in another unit, I have purchased one. I don't know a ton of landowners there, but I do know of at least 3 dozen that have purchased these tags, most don't normally hunt cows there.


First, you are right. I was misinformed that Ogden would be off the control list. Some units are now, including the wasatch. They increased tags by a total of 105, over 3 seasons (35 each season, minimal increase.)

Here is some background into the Ogden unit:

Population
2012-600
2013-2000
2014-2100

Harvest rates (hunters/harvested - Success %)
2013 - 159/74 - 46%
2014 - 848/328 - 38%

Even with the increased tags, and some additional harvest, the herd is still growing like crazy. I imagine with these tags there will be a good harvest rate, if you truly try. So it is a way to take additional elk out of the herd. I would consider 50% success rate on private tags a good thing. I don't see the increase in general tags yielding that much higher of a harvest. Will be nice to see 2015 data, then 2016 eventually.

My point was that a lot of people are seeing this as a negative. And it seems some EXPECT landowners to welcome people with open arms. Lets remember, these lands are either their livelihood, or their retreat. Either way, the risk of trespassers is greater than reward. I don't think more will let people trespass, I just know that more will be holding Ogden tags that didn't normally. Now they couple that with a control tag, and we see a few more elk hit the ground.

I am concerned that the tags still have a high number available. Like I said, this isn't THE solution, but I think it is a good piece to it. I for one am happy with the additional opportunity and plan on taking a cow from this over-objective area for the first time.


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