# Feminization of male fish



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I can't believe that nobody is talking about this! This is a serious issue, and we all need to be helping to prevent the unwanted feminization of our male fish !

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/2/10/21131488/utah-sewer-toilets-not-trash-campaign-legislature

Of course, maybe this would be an alternative to the practice of heat-shocking and stocking triploid fish? If enough women are flushing their birth control pills (yikes!!), then all the fish would "naturally" become females, and thus no more fertile males to help with reproduction! If we could just figure out how to prevent the male June sucker from feminization, but increase the feminization of carp, Utah Lake would be saved!

#FeminizationOfCommonCarp


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Uhhh, they're not flushing unused birth control pills, they're flushing USED birth control pills, if you catch my drift. It's not like it's a habit that can be broken unless you're talking about discouraging the use of birth control. Now maybe what can actually be done is that they process those hormones out of the water?

Also this is a fairly old issue, I remember reading about this 6-7 years ago.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Also, this:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...nce-headlines-echo-across-internet-180964259/


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

thanks for the clarification, and additional information.

"These genetic changes have the potential to disrupt fish reproduction..."

This is excellent news!! We just need to get the UDWR to find a way to work _with_ this issue and take advantage of it! I mean, this is exactly what fisheries management is all about: managing and controlling population size.

This isn't the first time this has been attempted. We just need to understand how to contain it.






#LifeWillFindAWay
#ProvoRiver


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It's 2020. Shouldn't the fish get to choose if it's male or female?


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

I don't know if you know this PBH, but when you use exclamation marks and italics, it's a dead giveaway for your typical troll post. You in particular I mean. You should try doing one looking like you're completely serious some time and see how far it goes.

Edit: Come to think of it, have any of yours been serious? Hmmm....


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Not to go Lonetree on the subject, but the question of small amounts of sex hormones in the water supply is an ongoing concern not only for fish biologists but for effects all up and down the ecosystem and food chain, including us. Borrowing from conspiracy theory lore, It's not the contrails of airplanes that may mess men up, but maybe our sewers. As Jed noted, the intersex fish have been noted for several years. There was a writeup in Trout magazine a while ago about intersex smallmouth bass showing up in the Potomac river. 


All that said, I get where you are going with this. We need to feminize all the perch at Fish Lake. Think of the benefits, no reproduction, female perch are larger than males, and the splake and tiger trout already in there are so jacked up genetically it won't affect them at all. Maybe a few feminized lakers could help the situation too. You have the connections to make it happen, get to it. 

Maybe we could feminize Scofields chubs too while we are at it. However, it would involve more years of waiting for something to happen and we already are doing that ad nauseum.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> It's 2020. Shouldn't the fish get to choose if it's male or female?


I think that's the point of the articles. We're taking their choice away from them by forcefully exposing them to chemicals containing hormones that cause intersex issues (_NOT Transgender!_) (_intentional_ use of italics and exclamation!).


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Cat -- see, I knew we could capitalize on this!

but, I'm afraid it won't work at Fish Lake, due to one of the best things our Federal Government has ever done: required cabins to be on a sewer system vs. individual septics.

No joke.

However, if we take a look at Panguitch Lake, we can see the exact opposite. At Panguitch, they were able to utilize septics. Why does this matter? Algea blooms. The Division of Water Quality placed health advisories on Panguitch Lake just last year. Where are all the HABs coming from? There are a lot of septic systems surrounding Panguitch Lake -- that whole lake is just a giant septic! Gross! But maybe the real reason we have never seen a Utah chub return at Panguitch has more to do with these septics leaking estrogen hormones into the lake, and thus changing the population of fish to all intersex specimens?

things that make you go hmmmm.....



(a recent post on BFT mentioned how good fried perch eggs are. Imagine doubling the amount of perch eggs if males also produce them!)


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

You guys need to do more icefishing, you get too bored during the winter. People are pulling a lot less chubs out of Scofield now, last time I was there I iced about a dozen cutts and not a single chub.

Leave my Fish Lake perch alone, I need a place to catch 80 of them for chowder, and I don't need to grow a set a honkers from eating them.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Jedidiah said:


> Leave my Fish Lake perch alone, I need a place to catch 80 of them for chowder, and I don't need to grow a set a honkers from eating them.


Yeah, but wouldn't it be easier to only have to fillet 25 of them and get the same amount of meat as you get from the current 80?

Valid point on the "honkers" but I currently readily eat the splake, so believing what I read about GMO from that branch of conspiracy theorists, I'm already toast.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Nah, I only filet 8 inch or bigger. The little guys get this treatment and they get pan fried or poached:


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Jedidiah said:


> Nah, I only filet 8 inch or bigger.


I've never understood why perch fishermen are content with 8" fish. Wouldn't it be more desirable to have 12" perch? 14" perch?

I'll just never understand....

Of course, I prefer salmon to halibut. And thus I also prefer splake to perch. So, let's continue with our efforts to intersex the perch and hope they go infertile!

#FishLakeKokanee
#DeathToPerch


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> Of course, I prefer salmon to halibut.


Gah no... I mean salmon isnt bad per'say. But Halibut rocks. We had some Coho sunday night for dinner. Family wanted more halibut but I said "we gotta start making a dent in the salmon".

So yea, 1st world problems I guess, freezer full of both. I'll still take a fresh cold water cutthroat over about anything else though.

And yea, we do target Kokanee frequently, love smoking them up or grilling them on the BBQ. Too cold to do it this time of year though.

-DallanC


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> And yea, we do target Kokanee frequently, love smoking them up or grilling them on the BBQ. Too cold to do it this time of year though.
> 
> -DallanC


You gotta try splake (or brook trout). Especially from a lake (ie: Fish Lake / Boulder Mountain lakes) where they are eating stuff like amphipods / mysis shrimp.

I need to target kokanee.

I like halibut, but I prefer the rich flavor of salmon. I've always felt that halibut was ordered by people who don't like eating fish. :noidea:

I'm salivating.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> You gotta try splake (or brook trout). Especially from a lake (ie: Fish Lake / Boulder Mountain lakes) where they are eating stuff like amphipods / mysis shrimp.


First camping trip of the year for us usually is the Boulder... brookies have been harder to find since the DWR upped the limits. IDK if I've ever caught a splake actually. So good info, I need to follow up on that.



> I need to target kokanee.


Yes you do. Kokanee is the big win for the state DWR. They are super fun to catch once you figure it out. There is a steep a learning curve to be able to catch them consistantly... but its worth it. And they are delicious.



> I like halibut, but I prefer the rich flavor of salmon. I've always felt that halibut was ordered by people who don't like eating fish.


Halibut to me is a great "blank slate" type of fish that just takes a variety of seasons, spices and even cooking methods well. You get huge bone free steaks out of them.

Piggybacking off Halibut, I see virtually no discussion on Utahs Mountain Whitefish. These are pretty much the "unknown" trout of Utah. When we first got into them, we kept and tried a bunch, and found the white meat similar to halibut where its a "blank slate" and works well with a large number of recipes. Its odd people dont target them specifically here... they fight well, limits 10 per person where we fish. Its a fish people up in Canada pretty much live off of in the winter.

I've yet to figure out where they go in the summer on the lakes we fish... but ice fishing we round'em up off the bottom in deeper water (gotta find a sandy bottom, bait needs to sit on bottom... they swim by and vacuum it up.



> I'm salivating.


Yea me too now.

-DallanC


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

DallanC said:


> First camping trip of the year for us usually is the Boulder... brookies have been harder to find since the DWR upped the limits. IDK if I've ever caught a splake actually. So good info, I need to follow up on that.
> 
> Yes you do. Kokanee is the big win for the state DWR. They are super fun to catch once you figure it out. There is a steep a learning curve to be able to catch them consistantly... but its worth it. And they are delicious.
> 
> ...


I get some crusty looks when I'm fly-fishing sometimes. I've been out on the river a few times recently specifically to catch some whitefish. I release all the trout and usually bonk a few whitefish for the week's meals.

In fact, I have a whitefish yellow curry on the stovetop right now......I can smell it from here.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)




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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> First camping trip of the year for us usually is the Boulder... brookies have been harder to find since the DWR upped the limits. IDK if I've ever caught a splake actually.
> 
> -DallanC


maybe you have, and you just didn't realize it? The splake on the boulder will color up just like a brook trout, and many people cannot distinguish between the two. They fool many of us. Numerous splake have been turned in to the DWR as "record brook trout" by seemingly nefarious anglers. At least one was accepted as the new state record brook trout by the Central region.....good thing the southern region guys stepped in to correctly identify the fish as a splake!

What lakes are you targeting? maybe I could help you get that splake so you can try eating one....


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Kwalk3 said:


> I've been out on the river a few times recently specifically to catch some whitefish. I release all the trout and usually bonk a few whitefish for the week's meals.
> 
> In fact, I have a whitefish yellow curry on the stovetop right now......I can smell it from here.


Caught a bunch of Whitefish yesterday finally. I havent seen them at our ice fishing spot in a few years, but yesterday there was what seemed like about a hundred swimming past the camera. They were very skittish and would run up to smell the jigs then dart off. I got lucky and lip hooked a few that were bumping the jig.

Right at the end of the day a 19.5" ****** came charging in and didn't hesitate swallowing the jig. Cant wait to get'em cooked up, we have a pretty good recipe for them.

Pretty much all the fish we caught were loaded up with snails. I imagine it takes a decent amount of time to digest them so they werent hungry for other food.

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I caught a 23.5 inch whitefish on the Green river many years ago that at least at the time would have been the catch and release record for the state if I'd have turned in the data. 

#humblebrag #nothinghumbleaboutit #2020letfishpicktheirgender


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

The LoPro has kicked out some especially large whitefish for me the past few years. They don't need their genetics messed with to get girthy. 


#FLgirlperchrule


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Dandy. The 23.5" Vanilla caught would be a brute. Worlds record is over 5lbs.

We had some last night, excellent. I should post my wifes recipe for those who eat them. Its a spicy Parmesan cheese coating then broil it. So gooooooood...

I'm still amazed they are in the LProvo, I'd never even heard of that until a few years ago. I'm surprised people get them on flys. They are pretty flighty in a lake on the camera, with jig motion. But they aren't in there thick enough to bottom fish. They sail past and give a jig a look... then run to the bottom to clean up any dropped bait. LOL

-DallanC


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

DallanC said:


> I'm still amazed they are in the LProvo, I'd never even heard of that until a few years ago. I'm surprised people get them on flys.


Whitefish readily take small nymphs, especially in the cooler weather. They are a fun challenge as their small mouths and bulk present a challenge to successfully catch them on the fly. Some snobbish flyflingers dislike them for some reason. I've never figured that out.

Back before it was uncool to fish rivers with bait, dad and I would catch tons of them with a live caddis larva on a size 12 or 14 hook.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

You fished a river with bait?!?!?!? 

The audacity.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> You fished a river with bait?!?!?!?
> 
> The audacity.


Forgive me, I was a kid then.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'll never apologize for dropping a grasshopper on a hook into a stream as a youth. Fantastic fun times with no cares in the world... other than trying to chase down another 'hopper.


-DallanC


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Agreed. It's a fun way to develop a passion.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think both catherder and I are speaking in jest about bait. I don’t care how someone fishes so long as they are doing it legally.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Same. Just fun to egg on the Ma versus H20 type banter.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> I'll never apologize for dropping a grasshopper on a hook into a stream.


Fixed it for you. No reason to identify fishing with a grasshopper as a "youth" technique.

"When people are kids their parents teach them all sorts of stuff, some of it true and useful, some of it absurd hogwash (example of former: don't crap your pants; example of latter: Columbus discovered America)."


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> You fished a river with bait?!?!?!?
> 
> The audacity.


I have caught trout on Cheetos>>O>>O>>O


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Dunkem said:


> I have caught trout on Cheetos>>O>>O>>O


LOL! We should have a discussion on the weirdest thing people have caught fish on.

-DallanC


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> LOL! We should have a discussion on the weirdest thing people have caught fish on.
> 
> -DallanC


...



> My brother and I would have preferred to start learning how to fish by going out and catching a few, omitting entirely anything difficult or technical in the way of preparation that would take away from the fun. But it wasn't by way of fun that we were introduced to our father's art. If our father had had his say, nobody who did not know how to fish would be allowed to disgrace a fish by catching him.





> ...all good things-trout as well as eternal salvation-come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Quote:
My brother and I would have preferred to start learning how to fish by going out and catching a few, omitting entirely anything difficult or technical in the way of preparation that would take away from the fun. But it wasn't by way of fun that we were introduced to our father's art. If our father had had his say, nobody who did not know how to fish would be allowed to disgrace a fish by catching him.



The River Why or papa Hepworth?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

papa H would never have discouraged the use of bait. However, there was a line and cheetos certainly would have crossed that line!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

"corn nut" fly.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> Fixed it for you. No reason to identify fishing with a grasshopper as a "youth" technique.


Ever seen old fat guys running around trying to catch a 'hopper?

Thats why old guys use worms... they dont run as fast 

-DallanC


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Catherder said:


> Quote:
> My brother and I would have preferred to start learning how to fish by going out and catching a few, omitting entirely anything difficult or technical in the way of preparation that would take away from the fun. But it wasn't by way of fun that we were introduced to our father's art. If our father had had his say, nobody who did not know how to fish would be allowed to disgrace a fish by catching him.
> 
> A River Runs Through It or papa Hepworth?


Fixed it for ya...


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