# .308 or 7mm for long range ?



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

For long range shooting, so probably 600-900 yards, would a 7mm or a .308 be best ?


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

.17 hmr


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Look at the BCs of the bullets that you want to shoot. That may give you a clue of where you want to go.

That being said, you dont hear of a ton of guys using a 7mm for long range shooting (assuming you mean a day at the range shooting steel targets) and I would assume that is because a .308 is a little more forgiving on the shoulder after a bunch of shots.

But shoot whatever the heck tickles your fancy! 

Still wishing I could like my comments :x


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## crod (Jul 18, 2013)

For long range shooting I believe your magnum calibers are going to provide the best possible muzzle velocities & shoot flatter than their non magnum counter parts. Bullet weight is also play into the results you see. My personal choice for long range shooting would be either a 270 WSM with a 130 grain, or 7mm WSM with a 150 grain...
Just my $0.02


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Looking at Noslers new long range Accubonds shows the 308 has the edge due to a better BC:

ABLR 7mm 175gr. Spitzer
G1 Ballistic Coefficient 0.672

ABLR 30cal 210gr. Spitzer
G1 Ballistic Coefficient 0.730

http://www.nosler.com/accubond-long-range/

Simply amazing BC's for a bullet.

-DallanC


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

post like that DallanC are why I appreciate this forum. Never would have known that otherwise.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> post like that DallanC are why I appreciate this forum. Never would have known that otherwise.


Soooo B,

you dont stick around for my uneducated .17 HMR suggestions?


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I've been liking the results I've been getting with my 7mm RM Sendero with the 162 A-Max. I'll post up pics later. In a sendero, it's the cushiest 7mm I've ever shot. A heavy barreled .308 is always a dream to shoot. The .308 does excellent, but I'm not sure about the 210 grain pills for that round. I'd imagine there's not a ton of case capacity left with those ( I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that the 210's really shined with the 300 WM or 300 RUM). That being said, my FIL has a Rem 700 SPS tactical .308 and it shoots the 168 A Max into one teeny tiny hole at 100 yards.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Basically I'm looking for a rifle for deer and elk, that will be ethically accurate once sited in past 500 yards, and be very effective. Would you go with one of these calibers or another?


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Looking at Noslers new long range Accubonds shows the 308 has the edge due to a better BC:
> 
> ABLR 7mm 175gr. Spitzer
> G1 Ballistic Coefficient 0.672
> ...


That is amazing. Can you push a 210 out of a .308 fast enough to get the distance with out haveing the trajectory of a morter? I'd thing you have to have one of the mags to get a flat enought trajectory to make it practical but then I'm not qualified to speak of long distance shootning as I think 300yds it a long shot.
I know that a 7mm shoots flatter just from experiance with my dads 7mm vs my 30-06 but they do pound you. I saw my dad take a deer with his 7mm at what we estimated to be about 500yds and he dropped in his tracks. The bullet didn't pass through and he hit it dead on in the heart which was just a mess.
Where's Springville he's got to have an opinion on this one.


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

I am not recommending one over the other, but have a look at the Buffalo Bore Sniper .308. The projectile is 175 grains. The Ballistic coefficient is 0.496. The muzzle velocity is about 2670 from a 22 inch barrel.

500 yards is a long shot. You are going to need a rangefinder. Suppose you sight the rifle in at 400 yards. It will shot high by about 12.5" at about 215 yards, right on at 400 yards, and 18.7" low at 500 yards. At 500 yards there's not much margin for error in your range estimation, let alone your steadiness of hold.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

308 or 7mm for elk past 500 yards

Easy 7mm but I think it comes down to the gun over the caliber. If you don't get a good gun it won't shoot those ranges accurate enough to hit anything. 

I'd personally go with a .270 wsm or .300 wsm for those dustances and size of game.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Basically I'm looking for a rifle for deer and elk, that will be ethically accurate once sited in past 500 yards, and be very effective. Would you go with one of these calibers or another?


243 of course: 




-DallanC


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

I have a 308 and what I like about it is the amount of support for the 30 cal round. The 308 is the used round partly to the military use. So you can get all kinds of bdc scopes and a large variety of bullets. 
That said I would never attempt a shot that long on an elk. I have shot plenty of coyote at 800 to 1000 with the 308 and I might even try on deer out to 600 or 800 but not an elk. 

Mine is a Remington 700 vtr


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

If by .308 you mean anything in that caliber than I would go with a 300wm and the 190 gr or 210 gr LRAB that Dallan mentioned. If you are talking the .308 win vs the 7mm mag than I would go 7mm mag.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Bax* said:


> Soooo B,
> 
> you dont stick around for my uneducated .17 HMR suggestions?


Funny you say that because since your post I have actually been on internet looking reviewing the .17 HMR. I honestly don't know much about it. I too have been considering a long range caliber for shooting and hunting small critters (up to the size of a yote)

learn me up!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Completely different topic, but I LOVE my 17HMR. One of the funnest guns I own.


-DallanC


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

500 and past

If the 308 was built to shoot that far it will shoot that far but I think the velocity of the bullet will be slow enough to affect the bullets performance. Meaning it might not expand and just poke a hole through it leaving a longer blood trail and possobly lost elk.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If we are just talking about .308 caliber bullets then take a look at the .300 RUM or .30-378 Weatherby. Both of them will get you out well past 500 yards.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Any accurate rifle shooting appropritate ammunition in 7MM or 308 will meet the requirements you have listed. I have a relative who shot small group at a 600 yard match last weekend at just under an inch with 4 X's. I have personally killed deer past 600 yards with a 7MM. I have never hunted with a 308 but have one that I love. I have also used the 300RUM, 338 RUM, and 280AI to take deer and elk at the distances you are talking about. Practice and precision are much more important than caliber. Either way you go, make sure you are up to the commitment required to get good enough to take these types of shots and be honest about your ability.-------SS


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

If you want to kill something at that range you have to go with the more powerful and heavier cartridge.

Bullet speed in relation to its weight is what produces kinetic energy. The more kinetic energy at a given distance the better chance of you dropping that animal will be. In my opinion the 7mm is the choice between these two. It's a flatter, faster and heavier bullet hence, more kinetic energy hence, better killing performance.

Now for the million dollar question.... Why do want to kill something that far out? Believe me when I say this.... hitting a target and killing an animal at 500 yards are two completely different things. If you are not trained in long distance shooting (and I am assuming you are not based on your question) you will struggle at best and end up wounding an animal needlessly. There are many things that go into accurate long distance shooting and the round is only one part of many others.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I agree with Mad and would add that the caliber is probably the least important thing. I love the long range game, but warn anyone interested that to do it right takes commitment and money. I practice enough to burn out a barrel in a 2-3 years. The right glass will cost a grand, and you have to be a competent handloader as well. With my current work situation, I am not able to practice nearly enough to justify the longer shots at game, so I have currently limited myself to roughly half the distance I used to shoot. There are a million shortcuts out there.....don't take them.-------SS


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

Rifle hunters brag about how long the shot was when they killed their last deer.

Archery hunters brag about how close the shot was when they killed their last deer.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

A rifle hunt ends where an archery hunt begins.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> A rifle hunt ends where an archery hunt begins.


True statement. I hunted the muzzy this year and I got to do a lot more hunting than I am used to. The game would have been over several times if I had been packing a rifle. I really enjoyed this hunt and plan on doing it again. I must admit that I am not used to bucks getting away from me. There is definately a time and place for all methods of hunting.-----SS


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

I do like the muzzy hunt; you get to do a lot more sneaking. But you nailed it; I can't count how many times I've come back to camp and said; "he'd be dead if I had my 06"


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Funny you say that because since your post I have actually been on internet looking reviewing the .17 HMR. I honestly don't know much about it. I too have been considering a long range caliber for shooting and hunting small critters (up to the size of a yote)
> 
> learn me up!


The .17 is a neat little round and you are welcome to shoot mine any time you like. My only complaint with the round is some guys on the internet really make the round out to be a do-all kind of round and dont recognize its limits.

You should start a thread on the topic. Seems like .45 has a Golden Boy in .17 HMR that he could weigh in on


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## Smurfwarrior (Oct 13, 2013)

IMHO and respectfully....I've been a trained LE/MIL long range guy for many years and wouldn't take a shot at a game animal further than 500 yards with my .308 sniper rifle (Rem 700 PSS in a AICS with all the bells and whistles). Reason being, I can get closer, not because of the caliber of the rifle... maybe thats the traditional archer in me, but why go for it? If you want to shoot at things and test your skill, shoot at steel targets way beyond your comfort zone.


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## WeaselBrandGameCalls (Aug 16, 2010)

Smurfwarrior said:


> IMHO and respectfully....I've been a trained LE/MIL long range guy for many years and wouldn't take a shot at a game animal further than 500 yards with my .308 sniper rifle (Rem 700 PSS in a AICS with all the bells and whistles). Reason being, I can get closer, not because of the caliber of the rifle... maybe thats the traditional archer in me, but why go for it? If you want to shoot at things and test your skill, shoot at steel targets way beyond your comfort zone.


Three thumbs up for this post.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Don't want to go back and forth with anyone on here but the 7mm is ballistically superior to the .308. Both will do what you are asking, but the 7mm gains the edge on BC, velocity, energy, etc.. If you want a vast amount of information go to longrangehunting.com and use the search function. Also, go to a bdc calculator and type in potential loads and see what you come up with. You need a bullet that weighs about 80gr more in the 308 to compare to 7mm stats. Lots of guys that want to peg 1k use 7mm. Very accurate especially with hand loads. With all that comes the fact that your optics will run as much or more than most guys want to spend on a whole setup. You need a setup than can comfortably/consistently shoot sub-moa at any range to even think about that. Your question really won't be answered until you go to the range. Which one are you going to practice those distances at?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Ballistic coefficient has nothing to do with bullet diameter. It simply describes how much drag the projectile has in relation to a hypothetical standard. Typically a longer, heavier, pointy bullet will have less drag than a short, fat, blunt bullet. It is not about the diameter, it is about the shape.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Also, a hyper sonic bullet will have more drag than a subsonic bullet. Environmental factors have a greater effect on drag than bullet diameter. Altitude, temperature, and barometric pressure affect BC as well.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Loke said:


> Ballistic coefficient has nothing to do with bullet diameter. It simply describes how much drag the projectile has in relation to a hypothetical standard. Typically a longer, heavier, pointy bullet will have less drag than a short, fat, blunt bullet. It is not about the diameter, it is about the shape.


Not trying to argue, but the ballistic coefficient does have a lot to do with bullet diameter. Diameter is in the formula to determine the BC. Another part of the formula that the caliber typically effects is mass. A .308 typically is a larger grain bullet and has more mass.

I almost forgot to mention the sectional density, also in the formula; also affected by caliber.

Shape and weight directly affect how the bullet will fly.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I can build a bullet to fit the model for any ballistic coefficient in any bullet diameter. It is a matter of changing the mass (length) and shape to fit the model. 
Sectional density is a relationship between the bullets mass and diameter. It has nothing to do with a bullet's shape, or how well it flies.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Loke said:


> Sectional density is a relationship between the bullets mass and diameter. It has nothing to do with a bullet's shape, or how well it flies.


How does mass and diameter have nothing to do with a bullets shape???

I still do not believe that every caliber can achieve a BC that is as high as others. You almost make it sound like BC is something he doesn't need to consider when hunting long range? If he doesn't own his own lathe and make his own bullets designed to achieve a certain BC (you said you could make any caliber have a certain BC) then he does need to know which caliber is going to offer the best factory options to achieve his goal of long range hunting.

As I said before I don't want to go back and forth with anyone. I am just curious if your posts states that there is not a caliber that achieves a higher BC than another? Or if it says one can not be ballistically superior to another?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

RandomElk16 said:


> I still do not believe that every caliber can achieve a BC that is as high as others.


Let me correct my self on this. In theory you may be able to make them the same, not with every caliber but with some. There are restrictions unless you are using a custom built rifle to accept a custom built bullet, maybe then you can open up caliber options. Obviously it is easier and realistic to get a high BC out of certain calibers, or we wouldn't see the constant reminder that some calibers typically run a high BC while others don't.

The other big factor in this discussion is hunting with a bullet that has a reasonable hunting weight. BC is directly affected by caliber. Point period blank. It isn't just the BC by itself, your velocity and energy is huge. At 1000 yards you can't make every caliber have the right power and expansion to kill big game.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> How does mass and diameter have nothing to do with a bullets shape???


LLike this letter L. Same shape, different size.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Loke said:


> LLike this letter L. Same shape, different size.


haha, can't say much to that. But doesn't sectional density still have affect on flight? I mean, in the bullet world there are more variables than just enlarging the L.

"Sectional Density is important because, _all other variables being equal_, a bullet with a higher Sectional Density will:

Lose less energy and speed in flight
Drop less on the way to the target
Penetrate more effectively into a target"
curious how you feel about this quote?

Also, if interested here is an article I found stashed away on .30 calibers and it talks about the two in question.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/30-caliber-1.php

I do not dislike the .308 or any .30 caliber for that matter. I just think that if you get on the web and ask between a .308 and a 7mm, the 7 will be an easier caliber for you to be successful with. I know lots of guys that do some amazing stuff to bring out the full potential of a .30


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

The reason we see certain calibers (such as 6.5 mm, 7 mm, .308, and .338) have bullets with higher BC than other similar calibers (such as .257, .277, .323, and .358) is not that the diameters are less capable of attaining a higher BC, they were not commonly used by target shooters. Target shooters competing in long range competition were the driving factor in the development of the very low drag projectiles. 
Ballistic coefficient is not dependent on caliber. The caliber of a projectile is a factor that will determine the weight (mass) and size (length) of a projectile of a given BC. There are formulas available that you can use to calculate the BC of any projectile. By changing the constants in the equation to the BC and whatever random caliber you choose, the result will be bullet that may or may not be practical, but it will exist.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I like how you highlighted the "all other variables being equal" part. When you increase the sectional density, you increase the length. This will change the shape of the bullet. Resulting in a more streamlined projectile. Resulting in a higher BC.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Loke said:


> By changing the constants in the equation to the BC and whatever random caliber you choose, *the result will be bullet that may or may not be practical*, but it will exist.


This is what has kept me a little close minded in the discussion. I think I mentioned it once above about a practical bullet. One that is realistic. So which caliber has a realistic BC, but also has the velocity to make that BC mean anything.



Loke said:


> I like how you highlighted the "all other variables being equal" part. When you increase the sectional density, you increase the length. This will change the shape of the bullet. Resulting in a more streamlined projectile. Resulting in a higher BC.


This whole conversation I have been picturing creating a bullet to fit a certain BC and I keep picturing a shell/bullet combo that looks something like a pencil  Trying to get a bullet to fit a formula, but doing so with a restriction on the diameter. That's the problem we run in to. Diameter and length restrictions.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

When you add the cartridge in to the equation, you add a new set of variables. If you compare the 308 Winchester to the 7mm-08 you get a fair comparison. If you are comparing the 308 Winchester to the 7mm Remington Magnum you are stacking the deck for the 7mm. A fair comparison would be with the 300 Winchester, in which case the Winchester would have the edge.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Loke said:


> When you add the cartridge in to the equation, you add a new set of variables. If you compare the 308 Winchester to the 7mm-08 you get a fair comparison. If you are comparing the 308 Winchester to the 7mm Remington Magnum you are stacking the deck for the 7mm. A fair comparison would be with the 300 Winchester, in which case the Winchester would have the edge.


So after 5 pages we may have answered his question between the 7mm and .308 haha

Good discussion. I appreciate it.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

For the simple minded folks such as myself, in order for a 30cal projectile to achieve the same BC as a 6.5mm or even 7mm bullet, its going to have to be longer which typically means heavier due to its larger diameter. Heavier means greater maintained energy but it also means more energy is required to start the process. Hence the reason the 6.5x284 is out shining pretty much all of the .30 cal configurations in long range shooting. Sure you can find higher BC bullets in the 30 cal but they are in the 190-220gr range which means minimum 300 wm to push them and speeds high enough to compete with the 140gr in the 6.5x284. In the hands of the right person, the .308 and 300wm are wicked long range weapons. That being said, there is a reason the .260 and 6.5x284 are starting to replace them more and more in f class shooting competitions.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

RandomElk16 said:


> Let me correct my self on this. In theory you may be able to make them the same, not with every caliber but with some. There are restrictions unless you are using a custom built rifle to accept a custom built bullet, maybe then you can open up caliber options. Obviously it is easier and realistic to get a high BC out of certain calibers, or we wouldn't see the constant reminder that some calibers typically run a high BC while others don't.
> 
> The other big factor in this discussion is hunting with a bullet *that has a reasonable hunting weight.* BC is directly affected by caliber. Point period blank. It isn't just the BC by itself, your velocity and energy is huge. At 1000 yards you can't make every caliber have the right power and expansion to kill big game.





Bo0YaA said:


> For the simple minded folks such as myself, in order for a 30cal projectile to achieve the same BC as a 6.5mm or even 7mm bullet, its going to have to be longer which typically means heavier due to its larger diameter. Heavier means greater maintained energy but it also means more energy is required to start the process. Hence the reason the 6.5x284 is out shining pretty much all of the .30 cal configurations in long range shooting. Sure you can find higher BC bullets in the 30 cal but they are in the 190-220gr range which means minimum 300 wm to push them and speeds high enough to compete with the 140gr in the 6.5x285. In the hands of the right person, the .308 and 300wm are wicked long range weapons. That being said, there is a reason the .260 and 6.5x284 are starting to replace them more and more in f class shooting competitions.


Yeah... This^^^^


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## dmoody (Jul 26, 2013)

This is just my opinion, but the cartridge you choose only plays a small part in shooting long range. Obviously for hunting you would want a cartridge that will retain enough energy to ethically take an animal at extended range, but for the purposes of shooting steel or paper it really doesn't matter as long as; 1) The rifle will shoot well enough, which to me is 1/2 - 3/4 moa at 100 yards. 2) The optics on the rifle has enough moa to adjust for the necessary correction at a given range. And 3) That the info you put into your drop chart are as accurate as possible, i.e. bc of your bullet, muzzle velocity, elevation, temp, humidity... etc. With all of this info the flight of the bullet is predictable and the right correction can be made whether the cartridge be a 223 or a 338 edge, the only real difference is the 223 will take more moa then the edge would to reach 1000 yards.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Which is why Elmer Keith was accurate out to 600 yards with a 4" Smith & Wesson Model 29. Any idea how far a 240 grain semi-wadcutter (with a BC of around .100) drops at 600 yards? Elmer knew, and could compensate for it to make an accurate shot.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I used to kick the snot out of guys shooting 300 win mags, 338 Lapuas, and especially 50 BMGs with my puny little 6BR at 1000 yards. Some guys never will understand how to first comprehend, then balance all of the factors needed to meet certain objectives with a rifle. Most of the meat has been fleshed out on this thread. The short answer is that as calibers, both 30 and 7MM are great for long range. Cartridge choice and bullet selection will further optimize the performance of either one. And after that, neither will still be as accurate as my puny 6BR.......a lot more energy though.-----SS


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## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

Remember when talking about B/C, you need to understand stabilization, twist rate, case capacity, etc. 

At the distances you are talking, I would not recommend a .308 for long range hunting applications. Just my opinion, but I don't think the .308 packs enough pop to effectively and ethically kill an elk sized animal at extended ranges. Stick with the magnum cartridges for elk sized animals, however, realize it is going to be dang expensive and time consuming to be accurate and skilled enough to take game at long ranges.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Springville Shooter said:


> I used to kick the snot out of guys shooting 300 win mags, 338 Lapuas, and especially 50 BMGs with my puny little 6BR at 1000 yards. Some guys never will understand how to first comprehend, then balance all of the factors needed to meet certain objectives with a rifle. Most of the meat has been fleshed out on this thread. The short answer is that as calibers, both 30 and 7MM are great for long range. Cartridge choice and bullet selection will further optimize the performance of either one. And after that, neither will still be as accurate as my puny 6BR.......a lot more energy though.-----SS


I love smaller calibers for long range. But since he mentioned killing big game it changes things. I bet that gun is a ball to shoot!


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

To each his own, but as for me, I doubt if I could make a killing shot on an animal at 500 yard, regardless of the caliber, but that's just me.


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## Badger (Aug 27, 2013)

Mass, are you trying to say that you can't make an ethical shot at an animal at 1,000 yards? They show it all the time on the long range shooting shows. Are you saying an animal might be moving or start to move in the time it takes a finger to pull the trigger and the bullet to reach a target at 1,000 yards? Do you think the animal could be wounded and never recovered at that distance? Huh...I think I am with you. Some guys may say they can do it but I don't like taking a shot unless I know I can kill the animal.


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## dmoody (Jul 26, 2013)

Badger said:


> Some guys may say they can do it but I don't like taking a shot unless I know I can kill the animal.


In terms of long range hunting this is the attitude that more people should have. If you're not comfortable taking a shot then don't take it. I think there's too many people that think they can make shots at longer ranges without putting in the time and money to practice and *know* they can. The longest shot I've taken on an animal was 527 yards on a deer in Wyoming, The only reason I took that shot was I felt 100% confident that I could make it after about 2 years of load development and long range shooting practice on both steel and paper targets under less than ideal shooting conditions. And it was with a 308 bty...


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## Mauserwonk (Oct 29, 2013)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Basically I'm looking for a rifle for deer and elk, that will be ethically accurate once sited in past 500 yards, and be very effective. Would you go with one of these calibers or another?


 I personally wouldnt shoot an Elk past about 400 yds give or take a few. And I dang sure wouldnt shoot one @ that range with a 308 Win. Dont get me wrong, I love the caliber and just used one for Elk hunting a few weeks ago, but never @ 500+ yds. Deer are not so hard to kill, but Elk are big, tough critters and often require a follow up shot even at relativley close distances.

I like 6.5 mm's and 7mm's for long range shooting because they can offer the same trajectories as a 300 WM with much less recoil. And more trigger time means more proficiency.


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