# IMHO----Bookcliffs deer quality contiues nose dive



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well, I've been visiting the Books for 25 years now ...

Watched the AWESOME days of AR's turn to disastor of general season.

Then closed to deer hunting for 4 years ........

Reopen to LE, and VERY, very good from 2000- about 09 ...

2010 til now, HUGE nose dive in quality and falling---Yoo many permits, IMO.

Les hear it UWN guys,,, Opinions anyone?.


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

I get so tired of you and those of your I'll crying and biotching about "quality and inches" sometimes I just want to puke.-O,-


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The Book Cliffs and a few other units in Utah were always about inches except for those few years that it was open to any buck and everything got shot. There are also some of us on here that only shoot a deer every few years and don't need to shoot one every year and would like to see areas like the Book Cliffs improve. 

The stories are all over the pages of this forum. Everyone settles for a smaller buck when if they would be a little bit selective then they just might see a larger one after a couple of years. I have talked to quite a few hunters in the field that say that they can't find a larger buck and they usually have a 2 pt on their 4 wheeler. I guess that they figure that a 4 pt is born that way.


----------



## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

I agree with both Goofy and Critter. I spent the summer and my hunt on the Vernon this year. The reason I did so was becuase I spent a few days each of the last couple of years on the book cliffs and didn't feel it was enough better than the vernon to make the drive. I feel that about the same time range could be applied on the vernon for it starting to dive.

The frustrating thing to me is that it seems there could be logical workarounds that make sense and could benefit all parties.

If they feel they need to increase the tags to double then why not make half of the tags management tags. Both units need a management hunt desperately. They would still get the same amount of $$$ from tags. People like Stillhunterman could go and shoot something small because they don't really care about big deer, and those who do care about big deer would get the benefit of a lot of medium sized bucks having the opportunity to grow a little older.

Why does it always have to be boom or bust?


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

The problem is that everyone wants bigger bucks and the ability to hunt them...So, to try and compensate hunters the DWR manages for different types of hunts--General, LE, and Premium LE. The bookcliffs unit is managed for more mature bucks than a general unit, but not for as many mature bucks as a premium LE unit. People need to recognize these differences before they apply for hunts. Goofy, would you say that the Bookcliffs unit is above the general units as far as quality is concerned? I bet you would....would you say it is below the Henry's or the Pauns? I bet you would. You can complain about quality dropping on the Bookcliffs all you want, but the truth is that it fits probably exactly where it should--between the Premium units and the General units.

What drives me nuts is that many of the trophy hunters want all the units managed for monster bucks....it shouldn't be that way!


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

In case you didn't notice they cut over a hundred tags in the bookcliffs this year. If your worried about quality on a le unit don't buy the tag on rebuilding cycles!

As far as quality goes on the bookcliffs. I would have given my 13 archery points and my left nut to hunt it this year! This was one of the best years for horn growth out there!

The bookcliffs isn't managed for high end trophies but they are there, I saw them. I saw lots of them! Its managed for 140-160 class 4 points. If you want better than that you better save your points!

Guess what you can kill 140-160 bucks on general units if you work for them. Thus the reason I don't apply for the bookcliffs unit. 

I think there are people who don't spend time on the unit till they draw the tag. Then when they get out their they get dissapointed with their expectations of giant le deer running all over the place. You "usually" get out of a unit with the effort you put into it. 

The bookcliffs is basically a general unit on steriods. Lots and lots of bucks to wade through with most of them under the age class a true trophy hunter are looking for. But statistically speaking you will still have a few over the average age out there and that's when you put your big boy boots on and go dig them out, glass them out, put miles on your wheeler ect.


----------



## utaharcheryhunter (Jul 13, 2009)

stillhunterman said:


> I get so tired of you and those of your I'll crying and biotching about "quality and inches" sometimes I just want to puke.-O,-


OK, you just keep shooting your 2 points.. And go "puke" somewhere else.. These LE units are set aside to provide good deer areas with opportunity to shoot "quality and inches".. That's why I put in, and hundreds of others do the same..


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

The overall Book Cliffs deer herd declined around 20% 3 or so years ago. There was no doe hunt and it wasn't for lack of bucks-- I think we can all agree on that. So what are we seeing today? A lack of 3-5 year old bucks in the herd-- compared to previous years. They have cut around 100-150 tags the past couple years. Those cuts should increase the "quality" of bucks, but it will take another year or two see the results. 

Management Tags would be fine for me, but there is a current lobby of high-powered guides and groups pushing to remove the current management hunts. Go figure that one......

Last, someone mentioned the Book Cliffs are managed for quality and inches. That is just not true. The unit is managed as an limited hunter experience. They are units which are there to provide hunters with an almost 100% chance to kill a buck. They are not managed for age, nor score. The Book Cliffs and other LTD Entry units provide people with an opportunity to kill deer and see more deer. Hunters can see numerous bucks a day. "Inches" might not be in the herd on a consistent basis, but there is a greater chance at a larger deer on these units because they hold more bucks. You see guys knocking over smaller deer because many have rarely even shot a buck. It is slightly comical that we throw around "180" inches as a goal on these units when I'd wager the average buck killed on the Henry Mtns is 180. (at least by the data I've seen)

Go on an Archery, ML, or Rifle hunt on the Book Cliffs. You might see 20-100+ bucks per day. Some of those bucks will be 5+ year old deer. That is the beauty of the LTD units. I like to enjoy it for what it is and once we're through this current cycle it might just be better than it is today-- which still isn't too bad.


----------



## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Just looking at the title of this thread, I knew who the author was. You would be lead to believe that there is nothing positive at all happening with utah wildlife. How bout something positive for a change goofy? 

I neither agree or disagree with you on this one because I'm not knowledgeable about the current state of the book cliffs, but its always the same song. I seem to find something to be optimistic about every time I hit the hills. Try it, it makes life and hunting a lot more enjoyable.


----------



## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Kwalk3 said:


> *Just looking at the title of this thread, I knew who the author was. You would be lead to believe that there is nothing positive at all happening with utah wildlife. How bout something positive for a change goofy?*


This line reminded me of the words of a wise and experienced hunter..... *"FREAK'N RANDY!"*


----------



## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

This reminds me about a story... I know a guy who drew a bookcliffs tag and the first thing that I told him to do was to buy an extra sparetire. The next thing that I told him was not to shoot the first buck that he saw, and my last piece of advice for him was to get off of the roads and do some hiking. 

After speaking to him after the hunt I discovered that he shot a 3x3 that looked like any 3x3 that would come off of a general unit after graduating from being a yearling. First question that I asked him was did you get off the roads? He answered no I took my wife with me... Next question I asked was did you see any other bucks? He answered yes, but we got a flat tire and I needed to head back in and just didn't have enough time to drive back in. 

He was thrilled with his buck and I guess that I was thrilled for him as well. Did he have a lot more potential at taking something bigger? Of course he did! The bookcliffs can also tax a hunter and wear people down. I am happy that he took a 3x3 instead of get stranded with 3 tires in the middle of some soupy muddy roads. 

There are bucks out on the bookcliffs that have never even seen or smelled a human being. Sure the quality maybe down in some areas frequented by hunters in the past. A blanket statement of saying that there are no good bucks in the bookcliffs is too broad to ever be true. EVER!!! It is a location always worth drawing and always worth hunting. A tag holder can make whatever experience he wants out of it. The appearance of quality goes down when all the big ones close to the road are harvested...


----------



## Elkster (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm hoping the numbers and size are up this year. I drew the tag in '09 and it was a tough hunt! I hunted hard. I ended up killing a 180" that I held off for. But he was far and above the biggest buck I seen out there that year. (From what I saw, others may have seen better) I've heard good things coming out of there this year. So hopefully, it'll be better. I've hunted out there for myself, family and friends. I've seen ups and downs out there. I just love the country out there and the hunt itself. For me, I'd rather have a shot and hunting a LE unit every few years, rather than waiting 20 years to hunt a "big name" unit. I can go out and enjoy it either way. I don't think the Books were ever intended to be a huge buck producer. As SW stated, it's more of a "general unit on steroids". Just get out and enjoy it while we can!


----------



## Schleppy (Jul 16, 2008)

Well I'm heading out there in a couple weeks with a tag in hand and from what I've seen from my scouting trips there still are a few good ones left and a lot of 3 pointers! Not sure how it was a few years ago, but I expect to enjoy this hunt and hope to locate a couple of the ones I saw earlier this year.


----------



## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

stillhunterman said:


> I get so tired of you and those of your I'll crying and biotching about "quality and inches" sometimes I just want to puke.-O,-


You too? It seems to never end.


----------



## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

martymcfly73 said:


> You too? It seems to never end.


Some of us get even more sick of seeing you jump on here and rip on goofy every **** chance you get. Do you have some personal vendetta against him or a man crush or something? Good grief, give it a freaking rest man.

As for the Book Cliffs, I've actually been able to hunt it with family the last couple of years. It has gone down in quality a little. However, I think the unit is great for a guy to get a chance to hunt and harvest a 4pt buck, if that's something he normally doesn't get to hunt. We were lucky enough to get two bucks that were above average for the Books. I think it's a great place. I would love to see the quality come up a little bit, because I don't think it's a unit that's worth 10+ points on. However, the opportunity for hunters that may be less mobile, capable, or picky it's a great unit.


----------



## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Well, I'll be out there in two weeks with a cousin of mine and I'll be glad to report back. I don't get to do the shootin' this time, but I'll dang sure be just as excited as if I were! My intent is to report about the giant buck Goofy is going to give me GPS directions to. 





Right, Goof?


----------



## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

gwailow said:


> Some of us get even more sick of seeing you jump on here and rip on goofy every **** chance you get. Do you have some personal vendetta against him or a man crush or something? Good grief, give it a freaking rest man.
> 
> .


Amen to you, wither Goofy is positive or negative. It doesn't matter. he brings up good conversation points. Is that not what this forum is for to bring up conversations? I think guys like Goofy are great. It gives us good reading material. It helps us all become better hunters in one way or another. it's all on how you perceive things.:mrgreen:


----------



## utaharcheryhunter (Jul 13, 2009)

hunting777 said:


> Amen to you, wither Goofy is positive or negative. It doesn't matter. he brings up good conversation points. Is that not what this forum is for to bring up conversations? I think guys like Goofy are great. It gives us good reading material. It helps us all become better hunters in one way or another. it's all on how you perceive things.:mrgreen:


Exactly.. Well said


----------



## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

How does this particular discussion make us better hunters? I think goofy is a good guy with a lot of experience, who is willing to help guys on the forum if they need it. However, I would like to hear more advice and experience personally. Your note of perceived things is absolutely true too. That's why goofy is concerned about the "quality" based on what he saw, yet there are multiple others on this thread who are stoked about what they've seen this year. Truth lies somewhere in the middle I'm sure. So, in that sense I guess it's good we have goofy to provide the other side.

There is a difference between generating a response and sparking an impactful discussion that benefits us as hunters. The tags have been cut on the books, complaining about quality gets us nowhere in this instance.


----------



## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

gwailow said:


> Some of us get even more sick of seeing you jump on here and rip on goofy every **** chance you get. Do you have some personal vendetta against him or a man crush or something? Good grief, give it a freaking rest man.
> 
> As for the Book Cliffs, I've actually been able to hunt it with family the last couple of years. It has gone down in quality a little. However, I think the unit is great for a guy to get a chance to hunt and harvest a 4pt buck, if that's something he normally doesn't get to hunt. We were lucky enough to get two bucks that were above average for the Books. I think it's a great place. I would love to see the quality come up a little bit, because I don't think it's a unit that's worth 10+ points on. However, the opportunity for hunters that may be less mobile, capable, or picky it's a great unit.


He's a know it all and I don't like him. Don't read my comments it they make you butt hurt.


----------



## utaharcheryhunter (Jul 13, 2009)

martymcfly73 said:


> He's a know it all and I don't like him. Don't read my comments it they make you butt hurt.


How about we stay on topic.. If someone bugs you so much, go and start a thread on it.. I am enjoying this thread and because he bugs you, you have to be selfish and make stupid comments.. Go do that somewhere else..
I have 10 pts now, and have been applying for an archery tag on the bookcliffs , and I decided to go to another area this next year because of the amount of points you need to draw, and the lack of quality bucks that are there.. But this discussion is giving me some hope


----------



## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

Aside from the deer quality, the Bookcliffs is a great place and makes for a fun hunt. The country is awesome. I appreciate it for its remoteness and rugged nature. Deer numbers are impressive and while the "quality" of antler size may be down from past years, there is always a chance of seeing that "trophy" like others have already mentioned.

Funny.. my brother has drawn a rifle tag for the unit this year and we have spent more time talking about our plans to camp and how we are going to enjoy each others company more so than the quality of deer he may or may not harvest. I guess that's just us though. To each their own.

There are surely better units for those looking for that HUGE buck, but for some of us the hunt is much more than that.

One thing I know for sure, my brother will pull the trigger when he chooses and there will be no regrets. 

Looking forward to it! :grin:


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Maybe some of the good bucks have relocated from the traditional places.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

BirdDogger said:


> Well, I'll be out there in two weeks with a cousin of mine and I'll be glad to report back. I don't get to do the shootin' this time, but I'll dang sure be just as excited as if I were! My intent is to report about the giant buck Goofy is going to give me GPS directions to.
> 
> Right, Goof?


PM sent....

Go kill him....


----------



## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Thanks, Goofy Elk! I'm so excited for this hunt!


----------



## meltedsnowman (Jun 1, 2012)

My dad has drawn an any weapon tag on the BC this year. He has been out to scout 3 times. He is there now. While in my LE elk hunt, he showed me pics of 4 different bucks that looked to be over 30". One is crazy non-typ that he has dubbed "the trash collector". According to his reports the deer are doing well this year. It is my opinion that there should be some management tags handed out because of LARGE 2x3, s a d 2x2's. But to say that the quality isn't there is absurd. It is not the Henry Mtns. It is not Antelope Island. You have to put in time and miles. If your looking for lots of good bucks and a chance at a toad, BC is a great spot. Too many people complain because they aren't seeing big bucks from they're quads. Please do us all a favor and put some boots on the ground. Just my 2 cents. Happy trails hunters


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ummm snowman, unless your comment about "boots on the ground"
is about the roadless part, which is NOT that large of an area....
I queaston what your saying?

The HUGE Bittercreek part HAS ROADS EVERYWERE!
You would be hardpressed to find anywere there, in about 2 million acres
theres not a road, or a wheeler trail , one from, or to the other, a mile or so in any direction.

So I ask you , put your boots on and go were? to the next road?

And for your info, Even the big bucks North of Steer ridge have to cross
dozens of roads and ATV trails to get to thier winter grounds............


----------



## meltedsnowman (Jun 1, 2012)

They aren't going to winter grounds yet. I know there are many many roads. Too many. You cant see everthing from your precious roads. There are so many hiding places that no road will see. If you think the older bucks don't know what time of year it is you sir are nuts. . Having been to both the northern and southern areas it seems obvious where to hunt. If you want a bigger buck...get off the road. A toad could be in the small draw 1/4 mile away, could be holed up at the bottom of a ledge, fact remains they are smart. They know what gunshots are, they know what the sound of OHVs and vehicles mean. You do t have to be 10 miles from a road to find big bucks, but you need to be looking in tucked away tough to approach spots, and you cant do that unless on foot. Thats all im saying.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm with goofy I also think its a waste to get out and hike out there. The books is a numbers game. The last thing you want to do is waste your time hiking where they ain't


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ummm snowman , again, Deer in the books are WELL on thier way to winter gounds...
RIGHT NOW!

I've been there 19 out of the last 25 years, always the same,
End of Sepember, deer on the move.
Headed for winter/rutting grounds,,,,Dosn't even matter what the weather is doing.


----------



## meltedsnowman (Jun 1, 2012)

Ok Goof


----------



## meltedsnowman (Jun 1, 2012)

If we find one my dad wants I will post the pics.


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I've also never seem a smart buck in the bookcliffs
They get passed every year till there old enough to harvest. Kind of like hunting moose in utah.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> Ummm snowman , again, Deer in the books are WELL on thier way to winter gounds...
> RIGHT NOW!
> 
> I've been there 19 out of the last 25 years, always the same,
> ...


Doesn't matter what the weather is doing? We are talking about mule deer right?, Not bighorns. With deer it is all about what the weather is doing. Bighorns are programmed to the calendar, mule deer are programed by what the weather is doing, that's just the way it is, and has been, for thousands of years.

If people are not seeing more deer, and bigger deer, the last 2 years, you are doing something wrong. With things being so hot, its been different than previous years, but they are there. I keep talking to guys in Northern Utah that are complaining about the lack of deer the last 2 years, so I show them pictures. And of course they call BS. I mean come on, they go to the same place they have gone for the last 20 years, and there are not deer there, so there are no deer right? If you hunted the last 2-3 years, the same way you hunted the last 20, you may be missing it big time.

But by all means, stay in the truck.


----------

