# The On-Slot of Points



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

I found this and decided to make it pretty. http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2014/14_drawing_status.pdf




The number of people with points in the Utah System.
http://i.imgur.com/R0mRp9s.png


The number of years it will take you to draw a bonus permit.(It only takes account for the bonus permits.)
http://i.imgur.com/Enuib5a.png


The years would be about half (Double permits) in a regular lottery process, but the distribution would be different.

The outlook doesn't look good for anyone that doesn't already have a significant amount of points already.

Kids that haven't started putting in for points, will never get into the bonus point pool for any species.

This also disproves the idea that you can move to another state and put in for points in all species and then move back to Utah and draw.

The Utah points system is nothing more than a 50% lottery.

A full lottery system would be worse, the fact is there are too many people applying for the amount of permits.

It's crazy to wrap your head around.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Yep! And there are those that are proposing that we further cut opportunity by making all deer units LE and having to decide between what used to be general deer and general elk permits each year. That sounds like a lot of fun....


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

If the system was total tags to the most bonus points it would be worse, then no one would have a shot unless you were in the system for years and years--cuts out a whole generation of hunters. A total lottery system with no bonus points gives everyone a chance but I understand those waiting for years and years would be upset. So we have Utah's system which is a blend of the two--its really not so bad, everybody has a shot and those that wait and wait will most likely get a tag in their life. It's the hard reality of limited supply with incredible demand. There is no way around it really. Even doubling the deer/elk/antelope populations (which is a pipe dream on many levels) would not solve the excess demand issues. It is what it is and there you have it.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> A full lottery system would be worse, the fact is there are too many people applying for the amount of permits.


That's why you need a draw. That's why everybody doesn't get to hunt everything they want to hunt.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

TS30 said:


> Yep! And there are those that are proposing that we further cut opportunity by making all deer units LE and having to decide between what used to be general deer and general elk permits each year. That sounds like a lot of fun....


Sounds like I'm moving to Wyoming.


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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

Good Lord, that is depressing. Makes me wonder "Why bother" in Utah.
But the truth hurts.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

According to those sheets I'm only 606 years from hunting Bull Moose in Utah....oh well, I didn't have anything better to do with my $10 anyway.

Does the 1pt. pool include the people with more than that, etc. Or was that just the people with only 1?


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

KineKilla said:


> According to those sheets I'm only 606 years from hunting Bull Moose in Utah....oh well, I didn't have anything better to do with my $10 anyway.
> 
> Does the 1pt. pool include the people with more than that, etc. Or was that just the people with only 1?


These are based on 2014 numbers. So, the 1 pt pool would be the people who had 0 points going in.

It will always depend on the unit. Wasatch mountains get almost 45% of the applications (Because of the more tags.)

And on any given year people will elect to buy points vs put in.

Easy unit to draw without points is the 3 corners at a whopping 1.8%

Hardest unit to draw without points is the Cache at a staggering 0.05%

Maybe the RACS will decide to split units or add multiple seasons to increase the odds.

There is always a chance that you can get lucky or you can save try to draw in Idaho/Wyoming/Montana or save even more and go to BC, Man, Alb, NWT, NF, Q, Y, or AK.


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## lucky duck (Dec 17, 2008)

After reading that I'm all for a random draw, not for me and my generation but my kids............ Random draws and waiting periods is what it would take to make it fair across the board.


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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

How would a Random draw be fair for the people who have been waiting 15+ years?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I really don't know what you do. Supply will never meet demand in this state I don't think. I think our system is as good as we can get, without more tags it's just going to keep adding up. Unless you went species by species and didn't differentiate antlered and anterless tags or LE to general deer units and pool everything into one system. I don't think there's much wrong or to do supply simply isn't going to meet demand, we better all start getting rich quick if we want to hunt .


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It is all a can of worms. One way isn't fair to those that have been waiting 15 years and the other isn't fair to those who are just starting. 

Here is my solution:

All LE draws are once in a lifetime, you draw 1 tag and then no more. No waiting periods no more tags.

If two hunters put in with bonus points and 1 has 20 points and the other has 2 points they both go into the draw with 2 points, no averaging.

You draw a tag you use the tag. Returns are only allowed for medical, military, or family emergencies. A written doctors excuse or a clergy mans letter is needed. Just because you can't find a good animal is not a excuse to turn a tag back in. 

Deer tags are only for the unit that is printed on the tag. No more extended for someone that wants to hunt the later hunts. If they want to hunt these hunts make it a tag offered in the draw and make them put in for it. 

Boy, I'm going to get into trouble with these ideas.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

i just moved to utah last year and have pretty much no experience at this (we cant even spell tag in alabama) but it seems to me that if this was such a problem, and an random draw was favored, and only disliked by those with points, it could be revised with a trickle down system. say starting next year, no more bonus points can be bought by anyone who doesn't have any. if you have no points you go in a random draw. if you do have points, you can buy another point as well as go into the random draw. next year say there are 1000 people with points. they get Xpercent of tags that can only go to people with points, while the random draw gets Ypercent (which still has people with points in it). the next year the people who drew with bonus points are no longer in the bonus point pool dropping that number to say, 900 people( i know thats way low but its just an example). the system runs again, Xpercent of tags for points people, Ypercent for random, accept now the Xpercent has decreased since the pool of people has decreased. also, if someone with points does get drawn out of the random pool, that still counts as their draw. It may take several years but eventually, everyone that had put in with points would get a tag without being put at an unfair advantage by the random draw implementation. It would also in that time phase out the bonus point system. i know thats not a perfect idea, but i feel like something similar could work. But i am admittedly very unknowledgeable on the system.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> It is all a can of worms. One way isn't fair to those that have been waiting 15 years and the other isn't fair to those who are just starting.
> 
> Here is my solution:
> 
> ...


I agree with you on everything but one thing, so yeah if I agree most probably won't. I wouldn't mind only 1 LE deer tag in your life, but I would hate to only have the opportunity to hunt bulls here once. Heck I hate the 5 year waiting period I'm on, I can't imagine never being able to hunt elk again here.

What about with OIL and LE tags you give larger numbers of archery tags in LE hunts to get people through more quickly which would give opportunity but lower success rates. And for OIL create archery and muzzy hunts and distribute more in tag form of archery than muzzy or rifle which would get people through more quickly while adding opportunity and cutting back on point creep?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

There is already a random draw for everyone.

As for point creep in general, this is why I am against the Mentor program. We used to be able to count on a certain amount of attrition (people die, health reasons, quit hunting etc etc). But now, it keeps people in the draw that otherwise might have quit, people will stay in just to get a tag for Junior to use. 


-DallanC


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

lucky duck said:


> After reading that I'm all for a random draw, not for me and my generation but my kids............ Random draws and waiting periods is what it would take to make it fair across the board.


It's already pretty much there, take a unit like Monroe Elk 10 early rifle tags 5 points and 5 randoms. Your odds at the randoms with 5 tags is 0.32% and your odds with 10 tags is 0.64%. That 0.3% is really not going to matter as much as 1556 people putting in for those tags.

I'm not really super opposed to the random draw, but in a lot of cases it doesn't matter.

I would be more in favor of it, if 60% of the state wasn't LE Elk units. If they opened up more areas to any bull, it would be a good idea. (But the state would lose money.

Last year there were 527,727 applicants. Which is a 5 million dollar purse.

I would be in favor of just leaving the 3 best areas in each LE and opening up the rest of the state into any buck/bull.

Just limit the General Season tags in the former LE areas and use the deer preference point system.

Elk - San Juan, Monroe, Pahvant

Deer - Pauns, Henry's, AI

Prong - San Rafael North, West Desert Rush, West Desert Snake

A bonus squared system could be a decent choice. Year 1 - 1 app, Year 2 - 2 app, Year 3 - 4 App, Year 4 - 16 App and so on.

Non Residents by far have it the worst - maybe put all apps in the same pool and limit NR's to 10% in each unit.

OIL's are what they are. We have a lot of land that could support sheep, but keeping domestic sheep out would be an issue. Moose is pretty well dependent on the weather. Bison are like sheep, but rather than domestic sheep, cows need to be kept out. Goats - well we could probably do a little more, but there just isn't a huge amount of habitat for them.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Raptorman said:


> How would a Random draw be fair for the people who have been waiting 15+ years?


Depends on what your definition of 'fair' is. If you believe that the wildlife of the state are owned by all of the people within the state (foundation of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation) then why does one person get preference over another? If our ownership is equal among all citizens then someone coming in new has just as much right to hunt that animal as someone who has been putting in for years and years.

OR a blended system like Utah where you have a chance and some preference goes to long time hunters

I like Utah's system. Everybody has a chance but those that spend the time will eventually get a tag--it just might take 2 lifetimes!


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Raptorman said:


> How would a Random draw be fair for the people who have been waiting 15+ years?


I think a bonus squared system would have to be in place in the random draw- 15 years gives you 225 apps in the draw.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I agree with you on everything but one thing, so yeah if I agree most probably won't. I wouldn't mind only 1 LE deer tag in your life, but I would hate to only have the opportunity to hunt bulls here once. Heck I hate the 5 year waiting period I'm on, I can't imagine never being able to hunt elk again here.
> 
> What about with OIL and LE tags you give larger numbers of archery tags in LE hunts to get people through more quickly which would give opportunity but lower success rates. And for OIL create archery and muzzy hunts and distribute more in tag form of archery than muzzy or rifle which would get people through more quickly while adding opportunity and cutting back on point creep?


You would be hard pressed to convince a rifle hunter to give it up for a bow and get on the 5 year waiting period with low success rates.

Be quiet on the Muzzleloaders - we don't want too many people to know about that form of hunting. :mrgreen:


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> You would be hard pressed to convince a rifle hunter to give it up for a bow and get on the 5 year waiting period with low success rates.
> 
> Be quiet on the Muzzleloaders - we don't want too many people to know about that form of hunting. :mrgreen:


I know, I'm not trying to convince anyone to give up a rifle but for every rifle tag you give out on a unit with 100% success rates couldn't you give a higher number of bow tags that are far less successful? Those who were willing to do so would get through the system quicker. I put in for rifle but got to 7 points and decided that a 20 year wait wasn't worth being picky on a weapon. I would rather get 2-3 bow tags in my life than one rifle. Now I'm putting in for pronghorn and by the time I draw that I will be able to start building elk again. You're right maybe I should be quiet I don't want the other tags getting flooded with applications.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

About 1,900 people have as many or more le elk points than me. I wonder how many years it will take to get that top rank cleared out enough that I will have a good shot at the early rifle hunt on the top elk units. Maybe I should just say eff it and put in for good old Mt. Dutton or Panguitch Lake.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

colorcountrygunner said:


> About 1,900 people have as many or more le elk points than me. I wonder how many years it will take to get that top rank cleared out enough that I will have a good shot at the early rifle hunt on the top elk units. Maybe I should just say eff it and put in for good old Mt. Dutton or Panguitch Lake.


2 years if all the people above you draw at 1251 bonus point permits.

It depends on which unit.

Beaver, Book Cliffs, San Juan, Monroe, Pahvant, Southwest Desert, all have higher max draw point holders.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

And we are worrying about hunter retention and recruitment. 

Based on hunting mags today every other trophy is harvested by a woman or child. I say behind every kid or gal in these mags is a guy who is really the hunting fanatic. Hunting vicariously through his kid or wife. 

Just about all the woman in my family are in the draw. Not that they won't pull the trigger. But in all reality it's just amother hunting opportunity to the men of the family. If left up to the gals they would just save their money for other things. Then applying for tags for 20 + yrs.


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## SLCHunter (Dec 19, 2013)

Iron Bear said:


> And we are worrying about hunter retention and recruitment.
> 
> Based on hunting mags today every other trophy is harvested by a woman or child. I say behind every kid or gal in these mags is a guy who is really the hunting fanatic. Hunting vicariously through his kid or wife.
> 
> Just about all the woman in my family are in the draw. Not that they won't pull the trigger. But in all reality it's just amother hunting opportunity to the men of the family. If left up to the gals they would just save their money for other things. Then applying for tags for 20 + yrs.


I had this thought on my mind. It's not quite pc, I think, but there might be really something to it. Every family is trying to maximize the chance at "the tag." For "the tag", though, it's the dads/husbands that are doing the scouting and running and prepping. Without that, the numbers in the draws would be a lot lower.


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## CROC (Sep 12, 2007)

What if there were no bonus points and all of the 15 year veterans were still no closer to drawing a tag than "Junior" who just got lucky enough to draw his first year? And 20 years from now he draws his 3rd time and as luck would will it there will be people who in 35 years haven't drawn once. Will we be happy with that plan then?


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

Looks like 1 non resident can go on any elk hunt they want this year, lol.

I don't know if this makes me happy or sad that I am trying to cash my points in on the non top elk units but on the other hand, I think I should just be happy if I can draw soon and move on.
Who is to say what the elk quality will look like in the future anyway.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I think that the information listed in the chart at the beginning of the thread includes all folks that have ever accrued a point(s) in the system. This will include folks that have moved to other interests, died, have moved out of state, and have points for multiple species (but they can only put in for 1 hunt a yr if resident).

While still somewhat grim, this link gives you somewhat more accurate odds for what you can expect for a given species and hunt.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in...me/1468-big-game-statistics-drawing-odds.html

For instance, for bison in 2014, the link above shows that 2559 people bought a point, and 7833 applied for a bison hunt. (10392 hunters) The original chart lists more than twice that that have points. While some back and forth will occur, the annual draw statistics probably paint a better picture of your given situation.

As for a solution, I have none, short of increasing tags. As has been said before, any changes to the current system will screw someone. I think our system is about as good and fair as can be expected.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

SLCHunter said:


> I had this thought on my mind. It's not quite pc, I think, but there might be really something to it. Every family is trying to maximize the chance at "the tag." For "the tag", though, it's the dads/husbands that are doing the scouting and running and prepping. Without that, the numbers in the draws would be a lot lower.


I'd never let being PC get in the way of bringing up a controversial point. 

And I can't imagine why 10,000 would wait 20 or 30 yrs to kill a buff especially on AI. Talk about a canned hunt.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Bob L. said:


> Looks like 1 non resident can go on any elk hunt they want this year, lol.
> 
> I don't know if this makes me happy or sad that I am trying to cash my points in on the non top elk units but on the other hand, I think I should just be happy if I can draw soon and move on.
> Who is to say what the elk quality will look like in the future anyway.


Be happy! Me and my brother drew south cache early with eight points and it was the time of my life. I didnt even get a bull but thats why its called hunting and not shopping. We were up there for the entire hunt i had multiple chances at + 300 bulls and missed out on a 350ish bull because he came chasing some cows my bro spooked from a ridge away but just happened to bust through the thick stuff behind the meadow i was watching. Its was a very bad string of luck for me to not get one and ya it hurt for awhile to not fill that tag. However i got to be a part of my bro getting his 280ish 5 point plus and we met some way cool guys that camped next to us and the guy with the tag did get a 350 bull. After my waiting period I am going to apply for south cache late next time and switch it up. I love that unit. Its much better then waiting your whole life to hunt San Juan once. IMO


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

3arabians said:


> Be happy! Me and my brother drew south cache early with eight points and it was the time of my life. I didnt even get a bull but thats why its called hunting and not shopping. We were up there for the entire hunt i had multiple chances at + 300 bulls and missed out on a 350ish bull because he came chasing some cows my bro spooked from a ridge away but just happened to bust through the thick stuff behind the meadow i was watching. Its was a very bad string of luck for me to not get one and ya it hurt for awhile to not fill that tag. However i got to be a part of my bro getting his 280ish 5 point plus and we met some way cool guys that camped next to us and the guy with the tag did get a 350 bull. After my waiting period I am going to apply for south cache late next time and switch it up. I love that unit. Its much better then waiting your whole life to hunt San Juan once. IMO


You are absolutely right!! Hopefully dad and I are hunting the South Cache Late this November! Glad to hear you had such an awesome hunt.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Ya if you draw the tag hit me up. I will point you guys in several good directions. Not giving up any of my honey holes of course thats forum taboo


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## N8ON (Oct 7, 2010)

You can sure see the year non residents were allowed to put in for all species. It jumped up dramatically. Anybody behind that year is never going to draw. I just hope after school I can move back to Utah.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Y'all know my opinion. 

5 year phase out of all points for everything. No bonus points
No preference points and no waiting periods. 

Look at it this way. Once you have max points you are straight
Luck of the draw anyway. These point pools ain't gonna shrink 
With dwindling opportunity, especially for elk, the pools will only
Get bigger and bigger. 

There was a fantastic archery elk hunt years ago, $FW made it
Go away. No points or waiting periods. Worked like a champ.


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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Be quiet on the Muzzleloaders - we don't want too many people to know about that form of hunting. :mrgreen:


 +1
Shhhh. Best kept secret.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Everyone always thinks that other people's systems are better. The grim reality of LE and OIL hunting in Utah is what it is....pretty crappy. 

That is why I oppose the proposal to dump general deer hunting in favor of all LE. I like the idea that although I won't get to hunt many LE or OIL tags in my life, I can still get a deer tag just about every year and can buy an OTC spike/any bull tag every year if I want. I realize these aren't 'trophy' hunts and they can be difficult. But heck, at least I'm hunting, right?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

All this and you can still hunt multiple species every year guaranteed...........SS


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

N8ON said:


> You can sure see the year non residents were allowed to put in for all species. It jumped up dramatically. Anybody behind that year is never going to draw. I just hope after school I can move back to Utah.


Why Utah?

If you can go to Idaho, Montana, Colorado, or Wyoming.

Also,

Do you hunt NE? I'm thinking of heading to NW NE for a couple of weekends In the month long December front end loader hunts, because odds are I won't draw general rifle deer this year.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

CROC said:


> What if there were no bonus points and all of the 15 year veterans were still no closer to drawing a tag than "Junior" who just got lucky enough to draw his first year? And 20 years from now he draws his 3rd time and as luck would will it there will be people who in 35 years haven't drawn once. Will we be happy with that plan then?


It really is about the same either way.

Someone will always get the short straw.

The DWR seems be taking an interesting route in the draws.

Opening early and late seasons to give a little better drawing odds.

Also, splitting of areas to make a new LE hunt.

They are trying to make this system work, we'll see .


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

TS30 said:


> Everyone always thinks that other people's systems are better. The grim reality of LE and OIL hunting in Utah is what it is....pretty crappy.
> 
> That is why I oppose the proposal to dump general deer hunting in favor of all LE. I like the idea that although I won't get to hunt many LE or OIL tags in my life, I can still get a deer tag just about every year and can buy an OTC spike/any bull tag every year if I want. I realize these aren't 'trophy' hunts and they can be difficult. But heck, at least I'm hunting, right?


Key word about on deer. I think I'll have another preference point to my name this year.

As far as Spike/Any Bull OTC, I don't think I'll ever hunt this again until I own horses or land. Just way too many people for the limited areas. And they drive those **** wheelers every where. I think it would be better if roads were closed and you had to hike in.

I'll just go OTC in another state if I'm after elk.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Iron Bear said:


> I'd never let being PC get in the way of bringing up a controversial point.
> 
> And I can't imagine why 10,000 would wait 20 or 30 yrs to kill a buff especially on AI. Talk about a canned hunt.


I know, when you can get the same experience at Custer in SD in 3-4 years.

It may cost 5 grand for the tag, but it's fully guided one day extravaganza.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Catherder said:


> I think that the information listed in the chart at the beginning of the thread includes all folks that have ever accrued a point(s) in the system. This will include folks that have moved to other interests, died, have moved out of state, and have points for multiple species (but they can only put in for 1 hunt a yr if resident).
> 
> While still somewhat grim, this link gives you somewhat more accurate odds for what you can expect for a given species and hunt.
> 
> ...


These numbers are definitely a worse case scenario. All units will vary too, it's all supply and demand.


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

So here is a question for you point creep experts out there. While looking at Big Game Draw Odds I notice that on almost all the limited entry and OIL stuff there are tons of people putting in with say 1-4 points and it seems like after that the numbers really drop off. Do people just lose interest and give up or what? I also notice on most the stuff I have looked up the max point pool doesn't change much in the 4 or 5 years he's been doing it?? This is giving me hope that its not as bad as it looks. But i'm interested to hear your thoughts.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

brendo said:


> So here is a question for you point creep experts out there. While looking at Big Game Draw Odds I notice that on almost all the limited entry and OIL stuff there are tons of people putting in with say 1-4 points and it seems like after that the numbers really drop off. Do people just lose interest and give up or what? I also notice on most the stuff I have looked up the max point pool doesn't change much in the 4 or 5 years he's been doing it?? This is giving me hope that its not as bad as it looks. But i'm interested to hear your thoughts.


They might just start buying points or switch species or a combination of anythings.

I know when I was 14, I put in for pronghorn hunts and when I turned 19 I started to put in for elk points.

I still have my prong points and am building elk points by putting in now that I'm out of college.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

brendo said:


> So here is a question for you point creep experts out there. While looking at Big Game Draw Odds I notice that on almost all the limited entry and OIL stuff there are tons of people putting in with say 1-4 points and it seems like after that the numbers really drop off. Do people just lose interest and give up or what? I also notice on most the stuff I have looked up the max point pool doesn't change much in the 4 or 5 years he's been doing it?? This is giving me hope that its not as bad as it looks. But i'm interested to hear your thoughts.


Because for a while the DWR didn't require you to buy a big game license to put in... so TONS of people were putting in their wives, moms, sisters, grandmothers etc to stockpile points. Once the DWR required a big game license a lot of people couldn't afford to keep this up (but a lot still do). So there is a bunch of points on the low end.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Because for a while the DWR didn't require you to buy a big game license to put in... so TONS of people were putting in their wives, moms, sisters, grandmothers etc to stockpile points. Once the DWR required a big game license a lot of people couldn't afford to keep this up (but a lot still do). So there is a bunch of points on the low end.
> 
> -DallanC


But if you work the system like a lot of people both resident and non residents do you only need to purchase one license every two years.

Another loop hole that needs to be corrected.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

DallanC said:


> Because for a while the DWR didn't require you to buy a big game license to put in... so TONS of people were putting in their wives, moms, sisters, grandmothers etc to stockpile points. Once the DWR required a big game license a lot of people couldn't afford to keep this up (but a lot still do). So there is a bunch of points on the low end.
> 
> -DallanC


Can you imagine if they required the money for the tags up-front?

A group (Father, Mother, Son/Daughter x3) of 5 UT Res Elk Hunters goes from $230 dollars to apply to $1755 to apply.

The odds to draw would go up.

A Non Resident applying for all OIL/LE hunts would have to fork over $6250 to apply vs the $135 to apply now.

Thus the draw odds would go up.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Can you imagine if they required the money for the tags up-front?
> 
> A group (Father, Mother, Son/Daughter x3) of 5 UT Res Elk Hunters goes from $230 dollars to apply to $1755 to apply.
> 
> ...


Keep dreamin'. It ain't gonna happen.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Can you imagine if they required the money for the tags up-front?
> 
> A group (Father, Mother, Son/Daughter x3) of 5 UT Res Elk Hunters goes from $230 dollars to apply to $1755 to apply.
> 
> ...


I shelled out over $1000 for wyoming apps this year.

-DallanC


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Fishrmn said:


> Keep dreamin'. It ain't gonna happen.
> 
> ⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


Yeah, I agree.

It's all about the money.

Requiring the money up front would create less apps and less income.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

DallanC said:


> I shelled out over $1000 for wyoming apps this year.
> 
> -DallanC


Yes, but it would be a lot harder to shell the cash if you were putting people in just to get points.


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

my .02

I agree with up fronting the $$ for tags for Utah tags both Resident and non res. 

Utah could put the application tag money in an account for a month or two then refund those who didnt draw (-minus the application fee) and then spend the interest off the money from that account to a general UDWR fund. 

Without knowing the money going in would certainly help with:

1. Reduce Hunters applying everyone in their family, Aunts, uncles, grandparents, ect..
2. Would help with the point creep and Bonus points for LE units and OIL.
3. Possibly could reduce the resident cost of tags. (other states have very cheep Resident tag prices. (if this needed to be done)


There could be many more reasons but that is all I came up with as of now...


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

476 years to a RMB!?!

So you're saying there's a chance.


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

brendo said:


> So here is a question for you point creep experts out there. While looking at Big Game Draw Odds I notice that on almost all the limited entry and OIL stuff there are tons of people putting in with say 1-4 points and it seems like after that the numbers really drop off. Do people just lose interest and give up or what? I also notice on most the stuff I have looked up the max point pool doesn't change much in the 4 or 5 years he's been doing it?? This is giving me hope that its not as bad as it looks. But i'm interested to hear your thoughts.


A lot of youngsters find out how hard it is to get a tag in Utah and go back to video games.


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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

redleg said:


> A lot of youngsters find out how hard it is to get a tag in Utah and go back to video games.


 This is why I am trying to get some old friends to bring their kids to TN to hunt. At least we can try and keep their interest up with a large deer population and incredibly long seasons.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I found this and decided to make it pretty. http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2014/14_drawing_status.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The original large png and pdf files posted were converted to jpegs and then downsized to fit the screen eliminating all the annoying horizontal scrolling. Try to keep inserted pictures at or under 96 pixels per inch and no wider than 11 inches.

Also note that it is the UWN's practice not post copyrighted material. A link accompanies the graphs above. If the DNR has a problem with the posts I hope they will let us know.

thanks

.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Apologies for never posting anymore and then ranting. I can't not reply on this as this is my number one complaint related to my home state. This is my kind of almost annual post to just throw in my 2 cents on fixing this mess - and it is a mess. Honestly, it will not surprise me if someday this is "solved" in conjunction with a lawsuit.

If I had a magic wand:

*1. Pay full price, up front*. Does it need legislation to be possible? So legislate. Why do this? Not to weed out poor hunters. Poverty has nothing to do with hunting a big horn sheep or a buffalo down on the Henries. You'll pay if you draw, so pay up front. This weeds out people who put in for others who don't care and gets tags to those who care most. This is so simple and straightforward it must be done. As a non-resident I would have to pony up 5 or 6 grand to put in for what I do now. Believe me, that would cull points and direct my heart to the species I really want.

*Combine Points:* At time of application, let people combine their points on to one species if they desire. Why do this? It would burn more points. I have 7 antelope, 13 deer, and maybe I really want a buffalo. With 20 points on that buffalo, I may have a chance. If I drew that, I would burn 20 points on one species. If I don't, there are scenarios today where I can draw on both the deer and the antelope. My point is that we could apply the same bundle of points and satisfy one hunter with one animal and his/her ultimate dream on one tag for 20 points.

Or...we can force that one hunter to stick with the choices they made 10 years ago, take the deer and the lope, and use those same points on 2 species - eliminating the opportunity for that second hunter. Point combining is kind of like a credit card, let people use that spending power to make purchases that are more about their current interests and those who are savers can have less competition down the road.

*If you pay, you play: *I like that previous suggestion. If you draw, you draw. That is another safeguard to prevent unnecessary point creep. I drew a lope and turned it in, I'm guilty of that time not being super convenient. Maybe that tag went to someone with fewer points, maybe not, but odds are good this would help with point creep. Let's say I had drawn a buffalo, bighorn, moose, elk, premium deer - you think there is anything I would miss for that? I have 4 kids, last on the way in September. I told my wife in earnest - I have seen 4 births and they are miracles...If I draw something amazing I am maybe going to see a new miracle. My point isn't that I'm a jerk, though I probably am, it is that - again - we will move heaven and earth for what we really want. I turned down the lope tag because it was only sort of exciting. Make people keep the tags and if they eat soup due to business or any of a million inconveniences, the better for the herd. Agree with illness, military, all that other stuff....childbirth...if it's the mom :grin:;-);-);-)

*4 or 8 hours of service* - for every applicant: Wow. I was just stretching my brain, 3 items didn't sound like a strong case for my once a year post. Then I thought of those dedicated hours. I did that program 3 times and enjoyed and learned from it. Sometimes it sucked, like when there was actual hard labor, but it was good for me. Taught me a little about the demands the DWR faces with private landowners when building elk fence, or about dealing with us crazies while informing people at Strawberry about the slot, or clipping fins at hatchery or trying to catch June suckers at night, or hauling gravel around Payson Lake in the scorching heat. Would 4 hours kill anyone? No, especially if you could buy your way out at 25 dollars an hour. Let those who want to buy out do so and it offsets some revenue of losing applications from above solutions. Introduce a massive workforce and lean on those sportsmans groups to fill in any burdensome project leadership needs - they owe us, the DWR, and the state a solid anyway. Here's another thing to think about here. The more population we get, the more you have to turn to the core. It just only scales so much. In Germany I lived with a hunter and he managed the land assigned to him. He had to watch, cull, report and act like a little DWR guy for his 100 acres or whatever. All I am saying is there is nothing wrong with expecting a hunter to have to connect him/herself to the land and in a more intimate and effective way in order to be able to hunt. People learn more, more gets done - AND it weeds out folks who don't really care or are not passionate. A buyout of the hours just makes it American and less social and pays money into the coffers for those who abhor the labor and all that other stuff. Fine. Why not!?!?! If you hate the rich guy buying out concept, make it only available for 2 years and then the work is mandatory for a year. Get that dirty rich guy dirty.

I am pleased with this master thesis. Kidding aside, I swear this would work like a champ. 3 of these ideas have the potential to drastically reduce applicants while still offering a means of offsetting income for the DWR. And P.S. that is not and should not be the goal. Does the DWR need money? Absolutely. Do we need to be sure they keep every job they have today? I don't know. I have never met an organization that thinks it needs less staff than it has or one (with any size) that can't simultaneously do what they do with fewer staff. I'm just saying, the thinking when talking about this should not be - how do we fill the coffers of the DWR, that's a backwards approach to the process. That is not the goal. It has to still be thought about and they do a great job on everything but the draw and expo, but you get the point I am trying to make.

*Draw system = inherently broken. *I really believe those above things would help a lot.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

One last thing......I am a non-resident for now. I will be moving back to Utah someday I think/plan/hope. I think that in those other scenarios above it should be fine to keep my points - of course I think that I have a ton. But, I do think that if you move back to Utah and you are using non-resident points (assuming you got to keep them and combine and all that good stuff) it would only be fair to charge the non-resident rates if choosing to use them for the combined draw - or something. If we gave more power to points then a non-res would have a disproportionate amount when moving back. One way to at least benefit would be to have them use if they like but at some divided rate, or have them use them the same but pay non-res tag fees. I don't know even with my magic wand what would be best there, but I would not be against taking that into account and seeking to address it.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

SteepNDeep said:


> Apologies for never posting anymore and then ranting. I can't not reply on this as this is my number one complaint related to my home state. This is my kind of almost annual post to just throw in my 2 cents on fixing this mess - and it is a mess. Honestly, it will not surprise me if someday this is "solved" in conjunction with a lawsuit.
> 
> If I had a magic wand:
> 
> ...


I REALLY like most of these ideas. One thing I would add to the combining points part though is to put and end to allowing nonresidents apply for points in all LE/OIL hunts. Otherwise I could accumulate 7 points per year just by loaning the DWR my tax return every year.

The service idea sounds good, but that would be a logistical nightmare. It's like the LDS camp down here in Alabama that get's maintained by the general membership of the LDS church members. A LOT of work gets done, and then gets done again, and then gets done again the right way sometime down the road. If you have a lot of people with no experience do something, even if their intentions are good, you're going to get a lot of work done... the wrong way.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

SteepNDeep said:


> *Combine Points:* At time of application, let people combine their points on to one species if they desire. Why do this? It would burn more points. I have 7 antelope, 13 deer, and maybe I really want a buffalo. With 20 points on that buffalo, I may have a chance. If I drew that, I would burn 20 points on one species. If I don't, there are scenarios today where I can draw on both the deer and the antelope. My point is that we could apply the same bundle of points and satisfy one hunter with one animal and his/her ultimate dream on one tag for 20 points.


And the NR's that have been able to build points for all species? They move here for 6 months to claim residency, combine their now 45-60pts and take any tag they want in the state???

Absolutely not.

*



Draw system = inherently broken.

Click to expand...

*No its not, it functions quite well. Everyone no matter how many points they have has a shot at a tag. No matter how you want to reorganize it, you still have way to many people who want way too few of tags. There is no magic bullet that will suddenly let people start drawing OILs at a faster rate.

I would bet alot of people, do NOT put in for Utah tags due to what they perceive is the insurmountable mountain of people ahead of them in the line. If you did completely away with points and made it truly random, you'd probably get a big influx of people applying, further increasing draw odds and making it worse than it is.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> And the NR's that have been able to build points for all species? They move here for 6 months to claim residency, combine their now 45-60pts and take any tag they want in the state???
> 
> Absolutely not.
> 
> -DallanC


While it is a possibility the logistics of moving and declaring a residency in the state isn't something that I would want to do just to be able to hunt or draw a single tag no matter what the tag is.

You also have to figure that once a person moves to Utah and declares themselves a resident they no longer qualify as a resident in the state that they just moved from. And with Utah draw application due the first part of the year it would disqualify them from putting in any other state as a resident. 
A whole can of worms.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

Critter said:


> While it is a possibility the logistics of moving and declaring a residency in the state isn't something that I would want to do just to be able to hunt or draw a single tag no matter what the tag is.
> 
> You also have to figure that once a person moves to Utah and declares themselves a resident they no longer qualify as a resident in the state that they just moved from. And with Utah draw application due the first part of the year it would disqualify them from putting in any other state as a resident.
> A whole can of worms.


I thought this same thing at first. But, You also have to think about people who would do that just for a tag. Kind of like how I would never pay tens of thousands of dollars for the tags you can get at auction, but there are people who do. If a couple of people every year did just what DC is saying, with the limited number of some of these tags, that makes a huge impact for other people applying for buffalo, moose, etc.

Simple solution if you want to allow points to be combined or transfer between species is to stop letting us non-residents apply for all species. not a big loss anyway because as has been shown, if all non-residents can apply for all species, we're not really gaining any advantage because you have to have two dozen points to draw anything.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't think that you will ever seen the combining of points. I personalty believe that there will be points for one animal and one animal only and you will not be able to combine all your points to draw a tag.

There is also the thing on Utah's draw is that you can only draw one OIL or LE tag a year so that would be another problem for someone wanting to declare residency in Utah for a tag. 

Now if a person that is now a non resident wants to move to Utah as a permanent resident after accumulating 20 years worth of points as a non resident than I can see where that could become a problem. But they would still be restricted to one OIL animal or LE tag a year. But lets not worry about a problem that quite possibly will not happen.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

I'll try it. 

I'll move to Wyoming for 20 years and put in for points every year, then move back to Utah and see how many hunts I can draw in the next five years. 

GS Deer (3 points if I don't draw)

LE Deer (0 points)

LE Elk (7 if I don't draw this year)

LE Prong (5)

OIL Moose (5)

OIL RMB (5 if I don't draw)

OIL DB (0)

OIL Bison (0)

OIL RMG (0)

DP (5 points)

DD(0)

CE(0)

I can say, I'll probably draw Cow Elk, Bull Elk, Buck Pronghorn, Doe Pronghorn, and Maybe Mountain Goat. 

The Rest would be a fat chance in hell to draw. 

My 2c


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Its not someone like your example starting it now... its existing NRs out there right now with 15-20 pts for ever OIL.

People keep bitching about the draw, all the while rich guys keep buying tags and are hunting ever single year. Maybe people should have studied harder in school and got better jobs and just buy a OIL tag from time to time.


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I believe that it has only been the last few years that non residents have been able to put in for all the tags that they can afford.


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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

Critter said:


> I believe that it has only been the last few years that non residents have been able to put in for all the tags that they can afford.


 From the charts, it was 6 or 7 years ago that the huge jump in NR points started. (See MuscleWhitefish's post on page 1 of this thread.)


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Too many hunters is a problem in Utah, too few hunters is a problem in California. Maybe we should have a drawing to send half of our hunters to California, or should I say back to California. It's all the immigrants like myself who are clogging the toilet.-----SS


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Dont they have OIL for tule elk in California? That would suck.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

You can kill three species of elk in CA.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I think everyone should just cash in their points on lower end units and give up on the LEs and OIL hunts and take up fishing instead.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> I think everyone should just cash in their points on lower end units and give up on the LEs and OIL hunts and take up fishing instead.


No, no, no!! It's golf.......take up golf O ye masses.------SS


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