# Shotgun shells



## J_marx22 (Sep 14, 2015)

So I went hunting this evening and had an awesome hunt but I had a really tough time knocking birds down. I'm sure part of it is the fact that I'm not the best shot but I also felt like the ducks were not even fazed my some of my shots just a poof of feathers and they flew away without any problems. I'm shooting 3 inch 4 shot. Would I be better off shooting 2 shot? Mind you these are all birds being hunted over decoys


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Stop shooting winchesters from Walmart. Or that's what I blame it on.


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## J_marx22 (Sep 14, 2015)

The funny thing is that is actually what I'm shooting lol


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Try a different choke tube first. If that doesn't work then go with a bigger shot size.....


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## BigMac (Feb 12, 2012)

I agree about the choke. Pattern it and see if you need to tighten up a bit. Over decoys 4 should be ok. Usually if your geting feathers with out dropping the bird you are a bit behind and lacking the proper lead. Shoot em in the lips.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

What load are you shooting? Choke? Range? Number 4s are reliable to over 40 yards. I suspect you're using too much choke or shooting behind.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

J_marx22 said:


> The funny thing is that is actually what I'm shooting lol


There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the Winchester Xperts from Walmart that I have been shooting for about the last 7 or 8 years. I shoot the 2 3/4 inch shells with 1 1/16 ounces of #3 shot at 1550 fps. I've tried the 4s in the past and found that I had more cripples with them than I ever did with the 3s. If I can't get 3s, I'll go for the 2s.

You absolutely should pattern your gun with these loads with the chokes you have to determine which one will give you an even distribution over the 30 inch circle at 40 yards. Do not go for the tightest pattern. You want an even distribution over tight. I use a Briley duck choke in my Beretta AL390 Silver Mallard 3" and the factory IC choke in my Browning Maxus 3 1/2" shooting the 2 3/4" shells in both. Grave yard dead over decoys when I do my part.

You also may want to increase your lead just a tad. From your description, it sounds like you are shooting a bit to far back. Try focusing on the tip of the bill as your aim point instead of the body and your current lead picture should work better.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Killed a bunch of geese today. All with 2 3/4", 3/4 ounce of 4s in 20 gauge, factory IC choke tubes. I've killed lots of ducks with the WW Expert load Bob mentioned above. Seems we agree on something.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> Seems we agree on something.


On this - yes. :tea:

On very little else. :focus:


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## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

I've killed ducks, geese, and 2 swan with 3 inch #2 Winchester Xpert. I like #2 to bang the ducks up a bit to try and avoid chasing them. Your choice of choke tube is going to make a great difference. Before you look into spending $99 on one, do your research and look into Carlson's choke tubes. I shoot the extended range and it seems to be perfect for Xperts and Federal blue box. They seem to be really popular because of quality and price.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

JuniorPre 360 said:


> I've killed ducks, geese, and 2 swan with 3 inch #2 Winchester Xpert. I like #2 to bang the ducks up a bit to try and avoid chasing them. Your choice of choke tube is going to make a great difference. Before you look into spending $99 on one, do your research and look into Carlson's choke tubes. I shoot the extended range and it seems to be perfect for Xperts and Federal blue box. They seem to be really popular because of quality and price.


 OK, I admit I'm a bit confused on choke tubes. Using the factory full on my SA-08 20 gauge. Extended tubes better?


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## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

Dunkem said:


> OK, I admit I'm a bit confused on choke tubes. Using the factory full on my SA-08 20 gauge. Extended tubes better?


For my Stoeger M3500, the Carlson's extended range was better than the factory tubes. I patterned my shotgun as soon as I got it because I wanted a turkey choke. That's not the case with every gun. Sometimes the factory choke tubes throw a better pattern. I will say to be careful using a factory full with steel shot. From what I understand, it can cause the choke tube to bulge and stay in your barrel. When shooting steel through a full choke, it needs to extend passed the barrel.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Here you go -

"Do Extended Chokes Improve Patterns?

Back to the original question posed, "Do Extended Chokes Improve Patterns?" The best available answer is that yes, based on best documentation available extended tapered portions have been shown to improve patterns. Extended parallel sections have been shown to improve patterns. High-quality extended chokes as a class have been shown to improve patterns anywhere from 5 - 20% efficiency. Moreover, I have never seen a quality extended choke tube go the other way, but the individual shell itself as well as the individual shotgun both have a large effect on potential pattern efficiency, independent of the choke tube itself. Don Zutz (Shotgunning Trends In Transition) felt that the conical parallel choke was superior with one piece plastic wads. The reason stated was the slight slowing effect of the wad in the parallel section of the choke, allowing a cleaner release of the pellets from the wad upon muzzle exit.

Another question rarely asked is, "Extended from what, exactly?" One of the most popular choke tubes for many years has been the "standard invector" or Winchoke, along with its many copies and clones. That is a very short, stubby little choke. An extended std. invector is quite a substantial difference. The consideration is that with a fixed screw choke length, a choke designer is locked into that length for both the tapered section and the parallel section. An extended choke tube gives the choke manufacturer far more real estate to work within, enabling optimized chokes for specific shells. Trulock has done this, for example, with both Black Cloud and their Super Waterfowl chokes. It is difficult to lengthen a taper or lengthen a parallel section, much less both, when the length you want is constrained by the overall length of the tube.

Do I Always Want an Extended Choke?

A reasonable answer to that is, "No." For short range (skeet, grouse) you may not want any choke at all, much less an improved one. The whole idea of a choke in the first place, dating back to Fred Kimble, is to improve patterns by making them smaller and better populated at range. The jargon applied to chokes reflects this, "Improved Cylinder" is supposed by an improvement beyond what a cylinder bore can do and "Improved Modified" is supposed to be an improvement upon a modified choke level of performance. Why "Extra Full" was not designated as "Improved Full" I have no idea.

At close ranges, meaning out to 20 yards or so, you may have far more pellets in your pattern than you can use. The idea behind "reverse" or negative chokes (something like .005 in. larger than bore size) is to try to get the pattern to spread just as fast as possible. A high percentage pattern at 40 yards is of no value if you are not going to shoot at 40 yards. Although Browning's chart above calls "Cylinder" a 25 - 35% pattern at 40 yards, in practice that isn't usable information with birdshot and a cylinder choke, as it isn't used beyond 25 yards or so. If you can get an extra couple of inches of effective spread diameter, you'll likely take it.

Personal preference still measures in. Whether you say you love the looks of an extended choke or you say you hate it, you are of course 100% right. That's your preference. As a practical consideration, there are other benefits to an extended choke tube beyond patterning performance.

An extended choke tube protects the muzzle of your barrel from nicks and dents. A whack on a choke tube is preferable to a ding on your barrel everytime. In the case of many guns, barrel replacement is not remotely economical. With doubles, it can be extremely painful. There is no need to stick your snootle down the muzzle to see what choke you have installed, either, nor is there need to remember notch codes or remove the choke to know what is in the gun. You also don't have to worry whether your choke is steel shot rated or not; all quality extended choke tubes are, regardless of constriction."

From this link - http://www.chuckhawks.com/extended_chokes_patterns.htm

Here is another link talking about shooting steel through a full choke - http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/the-gun-nuts/shooting-a-full-choke-and-steel


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Then I should change to a modified? Don't want to damage the gun.


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

I've always heard that since steel patterns tighter than lead that steel through a modified is like shooting lead through a full. I've shot the factory modified tube in my 870 for years, it throws nice even patterns with waterfowl loads and I've never felt like I needed extra range. I will switch to an IC for grouse and dove and small ponds though.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Pumpgunner said:


> I've always heard that since steel patterns tighter than lead that steel through a modified is like shooting lead through a full. I've shot the factory modified tube in my 870 for years, it throws nice even patterns with waterfowl loads and I've never felt like I needed extra range..................................


Me too with Rem 1100s and 870s, all gauges.

I have used the factory "pass shooting" choke with the Rem Versa Max on swans and cranes. It seems to work well. The combination has taken a crane at over 60 yards using #2 Hevi-shot.

.


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## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

Dunkem said:


> Then I should change to a modified? Don't want to damage the gun.


Read your manual. It will more than likely be very specific. Mine told me not to shoot steel through the full choke. I hear some manufacturers design their chokes for steel, but it usually says "Full Steel" right on it.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

JuniorPre 360 said:


> Read your manual. It will more than likely be very specific. Mine told me not to shoot steel through the full choke. I hear some manufacturers design their chokes for steel, but it usually says "Full Steel" right on it.


 Uhh duh:doh:! I should have thought of that. They are certified steel safe. Thanks Junior


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

I shoot a timber n teal choke and I love it. It works great over decoys and to about 40 yards
I would agree with everyone your probably shooting to tight of a choke.


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## Duckslayer74 (Nov 16, 2013)

Also look on the outside of the choke itself many times the Full choke will have "Lead shot only" labeled on it.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Don Zutz died in 1998, so most of his writings predated steel shot.

The subject of choke is very interesting, here's an article on the history:

http://www.boxallandedmiston.co.uk/shotgun-anatomy/shotgun-chokes-explained

As I recall, in the late 1800s choke guns were tested at different distances against the standard at the time, which was cylinder choke. Cylinder choke was actually better than choke out to 30 yards. And those tests were done, of course, with lead shot.

Steel shot patterns tighter because it doesn't deform. Deformed pellets lose speed faster and don't fly straight. That decreases pattern "efficiency" and stretches the shot string. However, increasing pattern efficiency, defined as the percentage of pellets inside a 30" circle at 40 yards, generally decreases killing efficiency in the field. Why is this? Well, most people overestimate the ranges they shoot most of their game. Most ducks, especially over decoys, are shot at 35 yards and under. Also, open chokes, with steel shot, give you an advantage out to at least 30 yards, probably more like 35 yards. See above.

One more problem with tight chokes, at least according to Bob Brister, is that pattern thrown by full chokes aren't conical, but more like a trumpet. They stay quite tight until they fall apart quickly. His testing was with lead, also, so may not be true for steel shot.

Given the above, and the fact that I struggle with a master eye problem, I favor open chokes. I'm convinced that most guys would benefit from shooting Cylinder choke. Absolute, no choke at all, straight Cylinder. I've killed lots of geese with a 20 gauge, 2 3/4" #4s, Cylinder choke. Personally, anything tighter than IC with steel is for special situations. The foregoing doesn't apply to pass shooting.

It would be interesting if fellow members screwed in factory IC or Cylinder tubes and reported back.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

paddler213 said:


> It would be interesting if fellow members screwed in factory IC or Cylinder tubes and reported back.


Last year I made the switch down to an IC choke for steel and saw the best results ever over the course of a trip to Saskatchewan and hunting pretty hard around home. I had less cripples and less shells per hunt for a limit than ever before. I am sold on the IC choke and two different factory loads out of my Benelli.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

paddler213 said:


> It would be interesting if fellow members screwed in factory IC or Cylinder tubes and reported back.


I will give it a try with my O/U. I have been using Mod and IC, but I will switch out the Mod to C and see what happens.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

paddler213 said:


> It would be interesting if fellow members screwed in factory IC or Cylinder tubes and reported back.


My dad switched to an IC last year (despite my efforts to convince him that he needed a modified). After crippling 6 or 7 birds in a row he finally saw it my way and switched back.

I think it would be great choke if you shoot strictly over decoys at reasonable ranges. My dad does a fair bit of long-range pass-shooting, often targeting divers, so it was obviously a poor choice.

I keep my modified choke because it gives me a little more versatility than an IC does, although it is a bit tighter than I would like over decoys. Somewhere down the road I think I'll end up getting a double barrel for waterfowl hunting (I'd get the camo Browning Cynergy right now if I could afford it). Then I could go IC/Modified over decoys and Modified/Improved Modified for diver hunting and pass-shooting.


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

My take on it is that I really like the tightest pattern I can get my gun to throw because I usually will either have a dead bird or a clean miss. I tried IC as my everyday choke for a while and I didn't like it, I thought I ended up with more cripples and fringed birds. Granted that's far from science, and there are a ton of other variables to consider, but I just generally shoot better with a tighter choke. My favorite pheasant gun is my dad's 1966 Ithaca 37 with a 30" full choke barrel-talk about a tight pattern!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Here are a few photos from today. This first goose was a nice honker, about 10# I'd guess. IC choke, should have use Cylinder:





Actually, I should have doubled or tripled on that flock. They bought it all the way. A bit later, more came in. This second honker was one of, if not the biggest goose I've ever killed. I'm guessing 12#. Both birds were dead when they hit the ground, both landed belly up:





For birds over decoys, #4s are fine, anything from 3/4 ounce up 1 1/8. You don't need extended or aftermarket choke tubes. Either Skeet, which is for some unknown reason my favorite, or Cylinder, my second choice, or IC, which is as tight as you'll ever need.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

I've been doing very well with my factory IC choke that came with my Franchi this year. I've been using Fiocchi 1 1/5oz #2 shot for everything from hunting over decoys to pass shooting. I even killed what is probably my first ever confirmed goose at about 35 yards with that setup. I've only had to chase down 1 bird and shoot it again so far and no lost cripples.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

paddler213 said:


> Here are a few photos from today. This first goose was a nice honker, about 10# I'd guess. IC choke, should have use Cylinder:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You seem to have things dialed in, nice birds!!


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

Got lucky the other night and had a flock of 4 geese decoy in and managed to pull off a triple. First 2 shot with 3" #2's and the third with 3" BB, all crossing shots from about 20-30 yards, factory modified choke. When I cleaned them I was interested to see that several pellets had hit the birds in the side just under the wing and gone all the way through the body cavity and stopped just under the skin on the far side-pretty good penetration!








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Paddler-when you are shooting #4's are you going for head shots, or do you find they will kill on a body shot as well? Only reason I ask is I have dead centered a big honker on a 25 yard overhead shot with #4's, and he kept on trucking. Fortunately my buddy that I was hunting with was able to put a load of BB's into him that dropped him. When I plucked that bird I counted 19 pellet holes in the breast area, none of which penetrated into the body cavity. I don't doubt that smaller shot can get the job done on geese, I guess I feel like the bigger the pellet the better on the big birds though!


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## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

I managed to knock down my swan with 3 inch #2 Federal blue box last Thursday.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Cody, I'm not a good enough shot to go for head shots, given my master eye problem. It's interesting that your #4s didn't penetrate at 25 yards as that has not been my experience. I've killed lots of geese at that range with 3/4 ounce of 4s, including a triple and a quad. I haven't even tried the 1 ounce load yet.

Twenty five yards is pretty close, I'll bet you'd have killed that bird with Cyl choke. It's a lot better than Mod at that range. This one was quartering off to my left, not sure of the range but I'd guess between 25-30 yards, and landed dead just like this. I don't remember the choke, but I know it was IC or more likely Cyl, as I never use Mod:



One day I killed three geese with #6s, 3/4 ounce, out of my 1968 Beretta BL-4 with fixed IC/M chokes. The last two were a double:



I'm not advocating 4s for geese all the time. It's all I use in Canada anymore because I like to be very selective with my shots up there. I think it's the best all around size for ducks over decoys and will work great on geese if you're careful.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

^^^^ Natural born killer 


Speaking of chokes. Carlson's is having a 20% off black Friday sale.


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

Jon-as I was thinking about your post today I realized that I've also killed geese with steel #5's at 25 yards, so it must be about the angle that the shot hits the bird and also if you happen to get hits to the neck/head, which would be more likely with smaller pellets and open chokes. Whatever it is, you've got the smaller shot and open chokes wired!


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