# Public Service Announcement



## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

So I use a cva optima v2 inline muzzy. I thought I would try some cheaper rounds this year. So I bought a couple boxes of the 200 grain shockwaves. I have now found that the cva optima v2 hates these rounds after 30+ rounds I couldn't get a grouping of less than 19 inches at 50 yards. On top of that, the plastic wads were ripping in half and many of the rounds we're tumbling. So three shots later with my old rounds 250 grain powerbelts, I had a 50 yard group sub inch dead on, and a hundred yard dead on at 1.5 inch grouping 3 more shots later. Weirdsome rounds do not perform well in some muzzy.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

wow, that is amazing. It almost sounds as if there is something more going on than a simple "my gun hates these bullets". No better than 19" group at 50 yards sends up more red flags than just a incompatibility with the bullets, especially out a gun that is known to shoot sub 1/2" with other bullets. And then there's the "ripping the wads"(sabots?) ...
I think I would contact Thompson, something just doesn't seem right to me.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Sounds like too heave of a charge with the shockwaves.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Critter said:


> Sounds like too heave of a charge with the shockwaves.


I just assumed he is using an appropriate charge for that bullet. But yeah, a nearly 40" groups at a 100 yards should send up some red flags. Wrong caliber, massive over charge, something just ain't right.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Shredding sabots is a result of too heavy of a load, or too much friction in the barrel (usually as a result of pitting). Possibly the wrong size sabot for the bore / bullet can cause shredding... but generally its usually always the sabot not strong enough for the load.

Picking up sabots and "Reading them" to diagnose accuracy woes is becoming a lost art.

-DallanC


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## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

I feel your pain. Spent 3 hours yesterday trying to get my son's CVA Wolf to shoot barnes 250gr expanders. Tried different powder amounts as well as different powders (blackhorn, 777, pyrodex) This gun just won't shoot them. Even had slugs going through the target sideways. After 30+ shots trying everything I could imagine, I gave up. I dialed it in with 240gr xtp's and shot a 100 yard group of 5 that you could cover with a copenhagen can and called it good. I was trying to use the Barnes as they are lead free. We have zion tags and the division mailed out vouchers for lead free ammo. The barnes work great in mine and my others son's Thompson Omegas but they will not shoot out of the CVA......


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

plottrunner said:


> I dialed it in with 240gr xtp's and shot a 100 yard group of 5 that you could cover with a copenhagen can and called it good.


Yup. No matter what I've tried different, I always come back to that bullet ad 90-100grn Pyro. It just works.

-DallanC


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

It is possible that there may be other issues. Have just never had this happen before, I have used other sabots that worked pretty good before. I was shooting 100 grains of powder, which I would not assume would be to heavy a charge, but maybe. All I know is I'm much happier will my powerbelts. This was the first year with a scope, I'm wondering if that will make a difference for me? I typically get at least within 100 yards, and if that happens this year say good bye mr. deer heart. Super pumped I can't wait for it to start.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

P.s. it was the right sized caliber and according to the package can handle magnum loads.


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## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

Slap That Quack said:


> It is possible that there may be other issues. Have just never had this happen before, I have used other sabots that worked pretty good before. I was shooting 100 grains of powder, which I would not assume would be to heavy a charge, but maybe. All I know is I'm much happier will my powerbelts. This was the first year with a scope, I'm wondering if that will make a difference for me? I typically get at least within 100 yards, and if that happens this year say good bye mr. deer heart. Super pumped I can't wait for it to start.


If you were able to dial it in with a powerbelt and have had good luck in the past, then why are you switching? One guess that I would make is the weight. 200gr is pretty light to be pushing with 100gr of power. Are you using loose or pellet? What kind of powder are you using pyrodex, 777, white hots, blackhorn? Have you recently switched primers? I didn't realize how different 209 primers were until I started reloading shotgun shells. This can also have an effect on ignition factors. All these things can factor in. Some guns just won't shoot some bullets. Also Dallan mentioned it earlier about the sabots. They should open up evenly and have all 4 petals still attached to the base. If some are missing or shredded, pitting could be an issue. You might be ok with powerbelts as they use a cup rather than a sabot.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Slap That Quack said:


> I was shooting 100 grains of powder, which I would not assume would be to heavy a charge, but maybe.


What type of powder? What granule size?

People used to know the burn rates and pressure's of their powders. Now too many people believe the magazine hype and just buy something and use what the gun counter guy recommends.

Relative to Pyrodex RS in equal amounts, Pyrodex P is 10% hotter than RS with a faster pressure curve. 777 is 10-15% hotter than RS and also has a faster pressure curve. I havent seen hard numbers on BH209 but its very apparent from their warning literature its probably even hotter than 777.

I cant remember how fast White red-hots were, but as they only came in pellets its a moot issue.

-DallanC


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## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

If memory serves, white hots are little slower than 777.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

plottrunner said:


> If memory serves, white hots are little slower than 777.


Thats kindof what I remember too. White hots big selling point was it was supposed to burn cleaner than Pyrodex, with the same power. One of the first "clean burning" ML powders.

-DallanC


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## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

I tried them the first year they came out and wasn't that impressed with them they didn't seem to burn any cleaner than pyrodex pellets or 777. I usually stay with 2-50 gr 777 pellets unless I am experimenting with different slugs. If that's the case, I have a bunch of different things to use. The 777 pellets have always worked for what I shoot and they are much more convenient than using loose powder.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

Well I was trying to save a few bucks on slugs, but it just ended up costing me more, lame. I was using pyrodex rx ffg equivalent loose powder. Not sure on the grain size doesn't say on the bottle, I would say medium sand grain size as a geologist would see it?


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

P.s. I can't see any pitting in the barrel.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

Oh and I am still just using 209 primers


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Slap That Quack said:


> Well I was trying to save a few bucks on slugs, but it just ended up costing me more, lame. I was using pyrodex rx ffg equivalent loose powder. Not sure on the grain size doesn't say on the bottle, I would say medium sand grain size as a geologist would see it?


RS is the grain size in the Pyrodex world. R stand for Rifle and is roughly FF. "P" pyrodex is for pistols and is FFF in size.

-DallanC


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

Gotcha, this has been a good thread for increasing my muzzleloader knowledge. Thanks to all that have contributed.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Power belts may be shooting strait out of your rifle, but, I've seen a few animals not go down with that bullet. XTP bullets are the cats meow in my opinion.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Slap That Quack said:


> So I use a cva optima v2 inline muzzy. I thought I would try some cheaper rounds this year. So I bought a couple boxes of the 200 grain shockwaves. I have now found that the cva optima v2 hates these rounds after 30+ rounds I couldn't get a grouping of less than 19 inches at 50 yards. On top of that, the plastic wads were ripping in half and many of the rounds we're tumbling. So three shots later with my old rounds 250 grain powerbelts, I had a 50 yard group sub inch dead on, and a hundred yard dead on at 1.5 inch grouping 3 more shots later. Weirdsome rounds do not perform well in some muzzy.


 Am I correct you are shooting a 50 cal. gun? I know the 200g. shock waves are 40 caliber bullets with 50 cal. sabots and the sabots are THICK. Maybe they are not opening up after exit? The 250g. and 300g. are 45 cal. bullets. The blue sabots are designed for the 40 cal. bullet only. So maybe your .50 gun just doesn't like them. All guns different. My knight .50 shoots them great and by the way I bought some 45 cal. sabots and put some 200g. shock waves in them for my .45 cal. Thompson and it shoots them very well too. Just my experience.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

That's the fun with muzzleloading and reloading in general - experimenting with different components to see what works (and doesn't). My Optima likes pretty much anything that I feed it (including Traditions version of the Shockwave, although I shoot the 300 grain pill).


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

Yep, I'm starting to like muzzleloader hunting alot more now a days. It's fun to see what loads work well. Maybe after the hunt I will look at the xtp bullet.


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