# Methods of take



## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

Why aren't .22's legal for grouse? My understanding is that they are in some other states.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

In other states such as Colorado you can use as big of a rifle as you want along with air rifles to take grouse but also in other states such as Colorado you can not hunt big game such as antelope, deer, and elk with any firearm caliber smaller than a .243. 

If you want to change it you are going to have to lobby the DOW about it.


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## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

It just doesn't make sense to me. What would be the first step in asking for a change, email the dwr?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The first thing that I would do is to go to one of the open houses that the division has for upland game animals and talk to the people there. You might also PM Amy here on the forum and ask her if she would have any idea of how to approach it.


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

Or, how about pellet guns? It would be safer than a .22 because it won't carry as far, and a reasonably powerful pellet gun would work fine on a grouse.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I believe it would need to go through the RACs, and the Wildlife Board.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/rac-presentations.html

Or if you peay the right people, you should be able to get it done pretty easily. There has been some extensive discussion on this subject here already. search the forum, and read the threads, it will give you an idea where people stand on this issue. I have shot way more grouse with a pistol(.357), rifle(center fire, and rim fire), and bow, than I have shot with a shotgun. Having said that, my hypocritical view would be that I would be opposed to changing the current law, simply from a safety point of view.


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

Because the poor grouse are already too easy to take with currently legal methods, and it is dangerous to shoot at flying grouse with a .22 rifle. 

How lazy do we need to be? Grouse are probably the most poached animal in Utah. Allowing the use of a .22 would legitimize those who are already breaking the law. (kind of the same argument as the illegal immigration: people are already doing it, lets just make it legal mentality). 

How many grouse are treated like varmints every year by being blown to bits by high power rifles on the general deer and elk hunts because the hunters aren't seeing any other game and just want to shoot something? No one turns them in. No one says anything. So if we legalize .22 rifles, why not big rifles too? Where does it stop? There are two camps, one who 'shoots' grouse with whatever they have handy, and one that 'hunts' grouse purposefully and safely with legal weapons. 

Why not just legalize any weapon for any game for any season. States that allow .22 for grouse are foolish. You don't know if the bird will run, sit, or fly. Think about it. 

I know people who ride their ATVs around with a .22 pistol looking for grouse and think this is perfectly legal and acceptable. Dangerous, Lazy, and wasteful. They don't care about lost birds that could be found by using a dog. They don't care about other vehicles on the road ways. 

I have a few gripes with the lazy Utah 'grouse hunter'. I really think the .22 for grouse is a bad idea.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

For many other reasons and from what you just stated I agree.
Besides it being dangerous - how about the fact it's a game animal.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I don't like the idea of people hunting grouse with a .22 lr we have a lot of grouse that hang out around camp and people driving along roads looking for them. When a grouse jumps at eye level and lands in a tree I do not want someone shooting a rifle whether it be rimfire or centerfire. Bullets can travel a long distance and still be lethal from long distances.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I would advocate taking grouse with slingshots and wrist rockets before allowing hipowered rifles.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

As a kid, we'd use sticks, rocks and slingshots for them. Stupid grouse.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Nambaster said:


> I would advocate taking grouse with slingshots and wrist rockets before allowing hipowered rifles.


I would go with that- providing you had a license.


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## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

plenty of places in the country have pretty active squirrel hunters that fire .22s in the air and there doesn't appear to be a rash of deaths from errant .22 bullets, although anyone shooting a rifle at a flying bird is lacking some cognitive abilities even just based on their odds of actually hitting it, let alone safety concerns. Also, the vegetation tends to be pretty thick in the places that forest grouse inhabit, I don't see a .22 making it very far. 
I see plenty of deer hunters blasting away at deer without being aware of what is beyond their target, so if we're making weapon decisions based on the actions of irresponsible people then big game hunting should be archery only. As far as grouse being poached, legalizing .22's for use would have zero effect on this, for the record I agree that poaching of grouse is a problem. Do states that allow .22's for grouse have higher rates of hunting accidents? Declining grouse populations? I'd be interested to know. I 'hunt' grouse purposefully, safely, and with legal weapons, and I would continue to do so if .22's were legal.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

bigred said:


> plenty of places in the country have pretty active squirrel hunters that fire .22s in the air and there doesn't appear to be a rash of deaths from errant .22 bullets, although anyone shooting a rifle at a flying bird is lacking some cognitive abilities even just based on their odds of actually hitting it, let alone safety concerns. Also, the vegetation tends to be pretty thick in the places that forest grouse inhabit, I don't see a .22 making it very far.
> I see plenty of deer hunters blasting away at deer without being aware of what is beyond their target, so if we're making weapon decisions based on the actions of irresponsible people then big game hunting should be archery only. As far as grouse being poached, legalizing .22's for use would have zero effect on this, for the record I agree that poaching of grouse is a problem. Do states that allow .22's for grouse have higher rates of hunting accidents? Declining grouse populations? I'd be interested to know. I 'hunt' grouse purposefully, safely, and with legal weapons, and I would continue to do so if .22's were legal.


Squirrels are a non-game species in the state of Utah so the method in which they are taken cannot be regulated. Since the Grouse is a regulated protected species my preference is bird shot, arrow, stick, rock, or slingshot. (the last 3 not being legal)

legalizing the use of a .22 rimfire or centerfire cartridge for the harvest of grouse is overkill. Center of mass is where all the meat is. Bullets penetrate and ruin meat. Although many hunters may be capable of lopping the head of a grouse off with their .338 RUM I most certainly would not feel comfortable with that round being fired up at a roosted grouse in a tree during my elk hunt.

The hillsides are most populated with hunters during big game hunts. So logically most of your hunters are going to be carrying around centerfire rifles. The likelyhood of having an incident is highly likely in this event. Carrying around a .22 lr in addition to a hunting rifle might not seem like a big deal but projectiles in the air can be an issue. Using a slingshot or rock or stick does not disturb other hunters in the area and can still cleanly kill grouse.

Squirrel hunters are out hunting squirrels. Grouse hunters in Utah are mostly big game hunters distracted from the task at hand. For a dedicated grouse hunter a shotgun is the firearm of choice. For a distracted hunter silent methods of take would be preferable. Just as any target shooter during a general season hunt, a grouse hunter with a .22 is going to create a conflict between upland game hunters and big game hunters.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Grouse are birds, you shoot birds with a shotgun. -Will Premos


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Turkeys are birds, a whole lot of guys use bows... 


-DallanC


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## Damiani (May 23, 2013)

woollybugger said:


> Because the poor grouse are already too easy to take with currently legal methods, and it is dangerous to shoot at flying grouse with a .22 rifle.
> 
> How lazy do we need to be? Grouse are probably the most poached animal in Utah. Allowing the use of a .22 would legitimize those who are already breaking the law. (kind of the same argument as the illegal immigration: people are already doing it, lets just make it legal mentality).
> 
> ...


I agree and would take it one step further with only allowing Forest Grouse to be taken on the wing with a shotgun. Also a hunting hound in tow to locate the down game. It's not a endless resource & should be considered as high of a PRIORITY TO PROSECUTE POACHERS AS THE DIVISION DOES WITH BIG GAME.


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