# Most misunderstood tag in utah



## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Since the inception of the antlerless control tag I suspect there have been cow elk taken across the state in areas outside of the control unit boundaries. I'm unsure why there isn't more education associated with this tag. All too often I'm talking to someone hunting cow elk and realize they have a control permit and they're in the wrong area by a long shot. Just this week I helped load a cow and sub 5" spike from a group off the mirror lake hwy. Another cow was hit hard but unrecovered. There are legal antlerless hunts going on at the time so I felt fine helping out. When I asked specifically about the tag I saw attached to the animals I was told the DWR said it was ok because they had deer tags in the area last week. They even read off all the areas on the tag it was valid for. The closest of which was still miles away. I attempted to educate them but didn't want to push the issue as the damage was already done. 
They were nice people but ignorant of the specifics attached to the permit they were trying to fill. 

Anyone else here see this issue happening in their travels?

Utah regs are difficult enough to understand as it is. It seems the education on this subject is insufficient but available if anyone cares to look. Extended archery has a test, online tags have popups, antlerless has its own guidebook. How can this tag be better understood?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I've seen it happen quite often. I watched as cow hunters shot across a canyon to kill the cow when the boundary line for the unit was the bottom drainage in the canyon. 

I also talked to a deer hunter back when we had regions who was coming off of the Manti. He mentioned that he wasn't seeing anything to shoot so he was headed out to the Strawberry area to hunt. I should of asked him what kind of a permit that he had that allowed him to hunt two regions. 

But the big problem is that people just don't educate themselves on where they are hunting and where they can hunt.


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## TheOtherJeff (Oct 7, 2021)

The antlerless control area off Mirror Lake Highway is just that little wedge of the Chalk Creek unit between the highway and the Weber River, isn't it? Unless I'm reading it badly wrong, and I always suppose that I could be, the Hunt Planner makes that pretty clear. It's not like educating yourself is all that hard.

OK, I take that back. I teach college.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

TheOtherJeff said:


> The antlerless control area off Mirror Lake Highway is just that little wedge of the Chalk Creek unit between the highway and the Weber River, isn't it? Unless I'm reading it badly wrong, and I always suppose that I could be, the Hunt Planner makes that pretty clear. It's not like educating yourself is all that hard.
> 
> OK, I take that back. I teach college.


Yes, near pass lake which is over 25 miles up canyon and on the other side of bald pass.


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## TheOtherJeff (Oct 7, 2021)

APD said:


> Yes, near pass lake which is over 25 miles up canyon and on the other side of bald pass.


Yup. That map is not hard to read.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Critter said:


> I've seen it happen quite often. I watched as cow hunters shot across a canyon to kill the cow when the boundary line for the unit was the bottom drainage in the canyon.


That's easy to make that mistake, especially if you're trying to shoot over the boundary instead of through it...


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## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

I’ve seen people not tag at all and run off as the conversation gets going in that direction and I’m so far up the mountain that any info won’t matter because they are on quads and I’m dragging a pack going up while they are going down. Lots of people are willfully ignorant, they aren’t uneducated about their tag, they are deliberately ignoring what their tag states. If they have no tag at all they would feel like a poacher but since they at least have a tag they are willing to break that tag so they don’t get skunked after using their points for a draw. Sucks because it makes it harder for people with legal tags legally following it. Lots to b*+€# about so I’ll just stop right here and slap my forehead again. 🤦🏼‍♂️


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

What it is going to take to start to reel in some of this type of activity is to report the ones that are doing it and let them explain to the DWR officer where and why they were hunting where they were at and why they shot a animal in the wrong unit. 

I know that in the area that I am at in Colorado that I'll write down license plate numbers off of trucks when I am in certain areas. I screwed up one year when a hunter told me that they had a youth tag, come to find out there are no youth tags issued in the unit.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

What it comes down to is that there are the blissfully ignorant, the happily compliant, and the educated risk takers. Unfortunately, there are very few regulators who are spread across the State trying to enforce the rules. There are only so many of the first and third group that are going to get caught. The rest/majority go Scott free and make everything more difficult for the 2nd group.

This coming from a regulator…albeit outside of the DWR.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Do the control areas change from year to year? I've only bought one and that was my first year. After using my bull tag on a bull, I hunted for a cow in the uintas. At the time, I was really confident that I was hunting legally. Looking at the current control area map, I wouldn't have been legal if the areas were the same then as now. I'm glad I didn't harvest one there if I was illegal. 

I make a huge effort to make sure I'm complying with all regs... If I screwed up 2 years ago.... That's embarrassing.


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## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

I met three guys in the middle of the Vernon unit who swore up and down they were outside of the unit with their general deer tags!!! They only 20-25 miles inside the unit. They were on ATVs and I had no way to get cell reception so I just told them off good for being dumb SOBs and left. Called the CO when I got to to town and made a report. Nothing ever happened with it. I’d like to see the general hunt and the limited areas not run concurrently. Then if I saw guys hunting in a LE area the wrong week I wouldn’t even have to confront them, just call the CO. If somebody is so stupid they can’t figure out where their own tag is good for they need a much stiffer penalty when they are caught. If a guy lost his rifle and the ability to hunt for two years I bet they’d learn the boundaries down to the inch. They are poachers plain and simple. If you hunt without a tag what else are ya?


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

rtockstein said:


> Do the control areas change from year to year? I've only bought one and that was my first year. After using my bull tag on a bull, I hunted for a cow in the uintas. At the time, I was really confident that I was hunting legally. Looking at the current control area map, I wouldn't have been legal if the areas were the same then as now. I'm glad I didn't harvest one there if I was illegal.
> 
> I make a huge effort to make sure I'm complying with all regs... If I screwed up 2 years ago.... That's embarrassing.


*What's new this year?
New hunts:* For the 2021 season, the Utah Wildlife Board has approved new hunts for antlerless deer, antlerless elk and doe pronghorn. See a list of new hunts for 2021.
*Change to antlerless elk-control units:* In 2021, the Division is offering antlerless elk-control permits on seven hunting units. The South Slope, Yellowstone unit is *not* a participating unit this year. Learn more about these permits and how they work.

I'm assuming you were previously in the South Slope, Yellowstone unit. They did make some changes this year to the control tag areas.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Tags?
I thought they were coupons!


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

APD said:


> Since the inception of the antlerless control tag I suspect there have been cow elk taken across the state in areas outside of the control unit boundaries. I'm unsure why there isn't more education associated with this tag. All too often I'm talking to someone hunting cow elk and realize they have a control permit and they're in the wrong area by a long shot. Just this week I helped load a cow and sub 5" spike from a group off the mirror lake hwy. Another cow was hit hard but unrecovered. There are legal antlerless hunts going on at the time so I felt fine helping out. When I asked specifically about the tag I saw attached to the animals I was told the DWR said it was ok because they had deer tags in the area last week. They even read off all the areas on the tag it was valid for. The closest of which was still miles away. I attempted to educate them but didn't want to push the issue as the damage was already done.
> They were nice people but ignorant of the specifics attached to the permit they were trying to fill.
> 
> Anyone else here see this issue happening in their travels?
> ...


Just my opinion but, the DWR is stretched way to thin. That compels us as sportsmen to do our part. When you catch someone doing something illegal you need to turn them in. 

Doesn’t matter if they are friendly or nice or seem like good people. One of the reasons these things are so rampant is because it’s inconvenient and often uncomfortable to turn someone in. 

Getting on sites like this complaining about it when you had the chance to make a difference fall right on your lap will not change illegal behavior. 

I think we all need to know the regulations and report illegal behavior. Utah’s regs are not difficult to understand. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## utskidad (Apr 6, 2013)

Maybe if we poney up a few more kajillions in license fees, tag fees, and sales tax, we might get some of it spent on what's generating the revenue. Sportsman settle for so little from their government in this State. 

People suck. Few people will do the right thing when they think nobody is watching. it's trending worse in the last two years.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

The issue here is that there's too few conservation officers with too much ground to cover. Without people reporting, it would be impossible to catch anyone. But there's many on here who've reported things that were not ever even investigated therefore diminishing the likelihood that someone will actually call and report. 

Last year two dudes from Grantsville used a any weapon deer license from another unit, on the Oquirrh Stansbury Unit. I've mentioned this on this forum before. There would be absolutely no way of catching people like that if not for their own stupidity. In this case, father and son killed two pretty nice bucks. Both father and son caped the deer and took only the heads leaving the rest of the animal to rot. Fortunately, others witnessed this happen and called it in. COs were waiting for these guys when they got to their trucks. Had they quartered the deer and took everything out, they would have likely gotten away with it. I am shocked nothing has ever hit the media on this particular case. But, be careful who you buy firewood from in Grantsville if you catch my drift! 

I think this happens all too often. I have a friend that is pretty new to hunting. He got an "any bull" elk permit earlier this year and hunted this past week or so. When they were unsuccessful in the Uinta's he called me up and asked where he might find some elk over here on the Stansbury Mountains, which is a spike only unit. I had to educate him on the units and that he couldn't hunt the Stansbury's with his license. 

The only way that this can be curbed is by reporting what we see as suspicious. However, as a citizen if I ask someone what unit their tag is for, they can tell me its for the unit they're on. I can ask to see it and they can tell me to pound sand!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Yeah at the end of the day this is just like any other tag: You need to know the boundaries and rules. And as far as clarity on those units and rules: I don't see much grey area. They are clear if you are a responsible sportsman who pays attention. 

In Idaho they don't even put the hunt dates on tags - which funny enough usually are the same day every year for the most part (Oct 10 is the primary start for many any weapon, don't care what day of the week it is). Imagine in Utah if the tag (receipt paper in idaho) just said "Regular deer tag, Unit 4/5/6". Poaching would increase 5 fold. 

We may suck at game management, but our sportsmen also aren't the brightest lol.


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

This past year I drew a LE Elk tag on a unit that only allows LE elk hunters and no Spike Elk hunters. While scouting for my hunt I ran across a nice young man and some of his family. His father had drawn the LE elk tag a few years ago and learned to love the country and enjoyed going there to see the elk. Then he said that they had hunted cows there the past couple of years during the archery hunt. I commented how awesome it was that they drew that tag (which doesn't really exist by the way) and he commented it was just a general season archery tag. "Allows the taking of either sex". I made the comment that I didn't realize that the area was a general spike area. He made the comment that it was a fairly recent change. 

I got home and immediately looked it up. I was right, no general elk tags in the area at all. I reached out to him via IG direct message and gently explained what I had learned and attached a copy of the hunt map with a circle around the area. He "unfriended me" and never responded at all. I really hope that he was just embarrassed and moved on looking for a new area, but I can't help but think that he is likely still hunting his general archery elk hunt, for spikes and cows, on a unit only open to those who drew a special LE elk tag or bought one of a very few landowner tags.

But I am always surprised at how little attention people pay to unit numbers, other hunts going on in the area, etc etc. Maybe I am weird, but most of these details I memorize, and then study every year to make certain there are no changes that I hadn't heard about. Just seems like part of the process to me. Yet few do it.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm going to play Devil's advocate here because I think we might be overlooking an important point. Sure, for those of us who have some experience, some good reading skills and who care enough about regulations to put in the time required to understand them, it's pretty clear. But a large segment of Utah hunters are totally confused, can't read well and after all's said and done, don't really care one way or another. It's especially difficult for new hunters as we've seen in posts here and on social media asking basic questions that are clearly answered in the regs only to receive opposing replies. Politics is not the only arena in which some value their opinions over facts.

I talked with an LEO a few years ago on the opening morning of the general deer hunt. He was on his way back to town because he had already used up all of his tickets by 10:00 am. He told me that most of the violations were illegal weapons or hunting in the wrong unit.

Ever tried to explain Utah hunting regs to a non-resident? Just explaining Utah's application and draw process is a challenge.

Yet every year, hunters head for the RACs and WB with a shopping list of new changes, making things increasingly more complicated. And let's be clear, few of those complications have done anything to improve our deer herds.

I'm not saying illegal activity is excusable. Nor am I suggesting we try to put the toothpaste back in the tube (although I think we could repeal Opt 2). But if being "user friendly" isn't even a consideration when new changes are proposed, we can expect illegal activity to continue because we've created a situation that invites it.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Utah's regs are no harder to understand than other states. Even other states will change boundaries on special hunts that hunters need to be aware of. Utah's application set up is really not that hard to explain, that is if you are talking to someone who understands English. The problem that I see with Utah's application process is that they have the multiple draws and point systems for the same animal. 

As for seeing a office in the field, in the last 20 years of hunting Utah I have seen exactly 1 enforcement officer in the field. This is on LE, OIL, and general hunts from opening weekend to the end of the hunt. 

It just has come down to the fact that we the hunters need to help enforce the laws. By this I mean writing down license numbers off of vehicles and reporting them when you see something that isn't right such as hunting in the wrong area or shooting animals that are out of season.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Finnegan said:


> But a large segment of Utah hunters are totally confused, can't read well and after all's said and done, don't really care one way or another.


That's devils advocate? 

I don't believe ignorance is an excuse. Have you ever gone to a DWR office? They will gladly answer any questions you have, and if they don't know something they will literally have someone call you.


AND that doesn't even include the proclimation (both in print and online) and of course... the great and powerful UWN resource. 

The ability to gain education on game laws is readily available. I don't know what more we could do than 1:1 sessions with every hunter and a CO.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

As far as western states go, Utah's hunting and fishing regs are about as straightforward as it gets. 

Utah's lack of wildlife LEOs is the biggest reason why there are literally generations of hunters that are ignorant (innocently or willfully) about what the rules are. I got soured on the poaching hotline as a teen when I watched a guy use a bow thanksgiving weekend to shoot a massive 30" 5x5 that used to hang out in the apple orchard behind Kohler's in highland. Called it in while he was still dragging it out, gave license plate everything. They never did anything about it. Called to check on it a few times and gave up after a few months.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> I got soured on the poaching hotline as a teen when I watched a guy use a bow thanksgiving weekend to shoot a massive 30" 5x5 that used to hang out in the apple orchard behind Kohler's in highland. Called it in while he was still dragging it out, gave license plate everything. They never did anything about it. Called to check on it a few times and gave up after a few months.


I remember that buck, he was a dandy. He was easy to spot as you drove past.

-DallanC


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## wisconsinvette (May 18, 2013)

I got checked by a warden for the first time in 10 years this year while I was on the Henry Mountains. Not enough wardens out there.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wisconsinvette said:


> I got checked by a warden for the first time in 10 years this year while I was on the Henry Mountains. Not enough wardens out there.


Do you mean "out there" as in "the field" or as in "on the Henry's"?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

DallanC said:


> I remember that buck, he was a dandy. He was easy to spot as you drove past.
> 
> -DallanC


Yep. Watched him for 3 winters in a row, and that last year he was just a stunning buck. I was pissed when I saw it get poached and then livid that the douche got away with it


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## TheOtherJeff (Oct 7, 2021)

Finnegan said:


> Ever tried to explain Utah hunting regs to a non-resident? Just explaining Utah's application and draw process is a challenge.


The DWR guides on that are not a new hunter's friends. I'm a soulless bureaucrat with a Ph.D. in political science and I had a heck of a time understanding things until I pulled bits and pieces together from different places. Every so often I get tempted to devote a section of my website to "The Less Official but More Helpful Utah Hunting Field Regulations." Just cutting and pasting everything into sections for each critter you want to hunt would make things a lot easier to understand.

That said, after seeing college students' reading skills I'm not sure the difficulty of reading the regs is the problem. You have to open the book to be confused by it.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

My story goes like this, I’m not sure when private land only elk tags are valid but during the archery hunt I was made aware of some said tag holders hunting a CWMU with rifles. Their reasoning was that it was valid for any private land. No permission needed. I suspect that they were not happy with the outcome.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

BigT said:


> The only way that this can be curbed is by reporting what we see as suspicious. However, as a citizen if I ask someone what unit their tag is for, they can tell me its for the unit they're on. I can ask to see it and they can tell me to pound sand!


I have trust issues, so if a hunter I don't know asked to see my tag, this would be my response.

But I agree with your first point about limited LEOs in the field. Practically, it's a ton of land to cover for the limited guys they have available. Has Utah ever used checkpoints? Obviously they aren't foolproof, but I bet it would be better than the current system.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't think that you would need to see a hunters tag but in general conversation something might point into the direction that something isn't right. You wouldn't even need to ask anything else but just get his vehicle license number, if you can't do that then let it lay so to speak and don't push the issue.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

My neighbor on the mountain told me he didn't get an any bull tag for our area. So they all bought spike tags (5 of them). He just figured they would use them in our area. No one would know and they weren't worried about getting caught. 
I've kind of been in a quandary about it........


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

2full said:


> My neighbor on the mountain told me he didn't get an any bull tag for our area. So they all bought spike tags (5 of them). He just figured they would use them in our area. No one would know and they weren't worried about getting caught.
> I've kind of been in a quandary about it........


Yeah that's cheating the system. No different that drawing a West Desert Deer tag but hunting the Stansbury's because you can draw WD every year, but it takes 2-3 preference points to draw OS. Be hard to explain if they killed a raghorn or something different than a spike and got stopped by DWR.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

jewbacca said:


> I have trust issues, so if a hunter I don't know asked to see my tag, this would be my response.
> 
> But I agree with your first point about limited LEOs in the field. Practically, it's a ton of land to cover for the limited guys they have available. Has Utah ever used checkpoints? Obviously they aren't foolproof, but I bet it would be better than the current system.


I think Critter is spot on. If you see something suspicious, often times you don't need to see the tag. You can ask questions not necessarily accusing them of wrong. I know some have reported things and haven't heard a response from DWR. The couple of times I have reported things, I got some feedback from the department and a thanks for reporting.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Natural Selection used to take care of the stupid people but now society protects ‘them’ down to the lowest level.
That’s why there are so many out there now.
Pick up a guidebook, actually read every page, THEN ask as many questions as you would like until you have it figured out.
#ReasoningSkills


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## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

The rifle hunt is generally 9 days long. That leaves people 356 days to figure out unit boundaries, and even memorize the guidebook!!! NO ONE has ever been forced to buy a license or apply for a hunt against their will. It’s a choice!!!! So to me, their is NEVER a reason to not know the rules and follow them. Regardless of enforcement, difficulty reading, or a hundred other excuses, all the responsibilities lie on the hunter!!!! Ask the DWR via email, phone or visit. Ask seasoned hunters here or other sites. Do research and whatever it takes to be legal and safe. And here isn’t last piece of evidence for my argument- if an undereducated, barely passed school , rancher who was dumb enough to wanna ride bulls can figure it out NOBODY ELSE HAS AN EXCUSE!!!!? It’s 2021 for hell sakes. Lack of information doesn’t work. EVER! 🤬


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## TheOtherJeff (Oct 7, 2021)

MrShane said:


> #ReasoningSkills


...have been killed by the assessment Mafia.


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## TheOtherJeff (Oct 7, 2021)

cowboy said:


> Regardless of enforcement, difficulty reading, or a hundred other excuses, all the responsibilities lie on the hunter!!!!


But we can make it easier, and if we do then we get more compliance. What's the aim here: to test people's ability to read or to get them to comply with hunting regs?


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## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

TheOtherJeff said:


> But we can make it easier, and if we do then we get more compliance. What's the aim here: to test people's ability to read or to get them to comply with hunting regs?


Should we just print a coloring book instead of a guidebook? Should we include crayons too? Or maybe that is also to much to ask people to figure out? We better just send a bunch of pretty pictures of wildlife. 🙄🙄🙄
I do not know you the Other Jeff, but you stated you are a political science PHD correct? I am not even a college graduate. But I have never had a single issue reading and comprehending the guidebooks. If I want to hunt antelope on the San Rafael Swell I can easily find the rules to hint antelope with the weapon I choose to use. I can find the unit boundary and season dates. I can find the required licenses and the applicable fees. Pleading ignorance in the year 2021 is asinine at best and completely unbelievable to any person with any common sense. If you as a PHD can’t figure it out, I hope you went to college out of Utah, because frankly that’s quite embarrassing


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I would never approach another hunter and ask to see their permit. Ever! And if a non-law enforcement officer did that to me I would laugh in their face. I’m pretty friendly and willing to chat it up with people in the field, but that conversation would end rather quickly.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> I would never approach another hunter and ask to see their permit. Ever! And if a non-law enforcement officer did that to me I would laugh in their face. I’m pretty friendly and willing to chat it up with people in the field, but that conversation would end rather quickly.


I would agree. What would you do if it were in plain sight attached to a carcass that doesn't match the permit species or area?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Call them in.

Tell law enforcement everything I saw and know.


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## TheOtherJeff (Oct 7, 2021)

I guess I'm coming to this from a public administration perspective, thinking about what I'd expect students to get out of this if I assigned these as readings (which suddenly sounds like a good idea for an assignment!). One of the key things that I've learned teaching is that the background knowledge my students bring (or don't bring) to the content makes a world of difference. We call that the "hidden curriculum"--all of the things we forget that people new to a field don't know yet. Those of you who have been hunting all your lives bring that knowledge to the field regs in ways that new hunters don't, and that makes a huge difference in how quickly you can find and digest the content you're looking for.

As someone who only got interested in hunting last year, I found the guidebooks confusing simply because I had to go to a lot of different places and bring that knowledge together: how to get a tag, what units I want to put into for the draw, what rules I have to follow in the field, what specific qualities make a legal animal, when I can hunt, etc. And if I didn't know I needed to ask those questions, I might have missed important things entirely. I can find those and make sense of all of that (it's one of the few real skills you get in grad school; the rest is a lot of naval gazing), but it took a lot more time and effort than it needed to. 

And in any compliance situation, time and effort translate into higher rates of noncompliance as people either miss things, give up trying to understand, or get frustrated and decide to do it their way. Simply reorganizing the guidebooks along the lines of "here's everything you need to know about hunting deer in one place" would be handy for a lot of new hunters, and would lead to better compliance. Which seems to me to be a better goal for a public program than separating the worthy and the unworthy.

That's not an excuse for not knowing the rules in the slightest. It is a factor that you have to consider if you want to run a successful public program. But like I said, you have to open the book to be confused by it, and I suspect a lot of people haven't.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It is like a lot of the questions that get asked here on the forum here about big game hunting. 

Most of them are simple ones that can be answered by just opening up the Field Regulations book and doing a little bit of reading. 

I would like to see Utah come out with just a single book for Big Game Hunting instead of the application book and the field regs. It would make it a lot simpler for some but others would still be confused. 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## 1trhall (Oct 18, 2017)

We probably wouldn't be friends anymore but I would tell him that if I find out he illegally killed a spike using a tag in the wrong unit that I would report him and his crew.


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## fobit (Mar 1, 2017)

A few years ago. I picked up a copy of the elk regulations in a Midwestern state, it was both sides of a legal size sheet of paper. 
Here in Utah we have a two volume set to memorize that changes every year


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

fobit said:


> A few years ago. I picked up a copy of the elk regulations in a Midwestern state, it was both sides of a legal size sheet of paper.
> Here in Utah we have a two volume set to memorize that changes every year


The actual regulations/laws don't change that often. Some boundaries yes, but not the regulations.


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