# Independence Day - in Provo?



## GaryFish

So it looks like BYU will become free of the Mountain West Crapfrence starting in 2011. My own take is that it is a good move. Their schedule can't get any worse than its been in the MWC, except now they can get 7-8 home games each year. And the reality is that they'll make more money off of one more home game then they'd make off of a BCS bowl appearance. So its a win/win. I'm not sure it improves/reduces any chance towards a national championship hunt or BCS game, but I'm not sure it needs to either. Just getting out of the MTN tv deal is enough to make it worth it.


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## Chaser

I bet this pretty well pissed off Boise State and TCU. There will be nobody left to compete with.


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## GaryFish

One rumor floating is that if BYU jumps, that BSU will go back to the WAC, and TCU will jump to the WAC as well. Take away the top teams in the MWC, and there is no difference between the MWC and WAC. Except the WAC has a better TV deal.


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## bowhunter3

I don't think its a wise move on there part...


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## jahan

I think for the most part it was a good decision on BYU's part. They should be able to make more money with TV contracts than they did in the MWC. I have heard they may not have an opportunity at a BCS bowl game, I don't know if it is true. I would be very surprised if Boise State don't go back to the WAC. Also wouldn't be surprised to see TCU either go to the WAC or Conference USA. I will be curious to see how everything plays out.


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## bowhunter3

I could see TCU joining the Big 12 now. As far as football I just don't see how this is a good move for them. they aren't a draw like the Irish, they won't get an automatic bid to the bcs like the Irish would if they were in the top 8, the big schools still won't schedule them, I just see this hurting them.


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## GaryFish

I'm not sure you are correct about big schools not scheduling them. Their track record shows they can schedule anyone. They have a home/home with Texas in 2011/2012, and have done home/homes or at least 2/1 with nearly every major program in the country. At a minimum, they can schedule Utah, Boise State, and Fresno/Hawaii every single year. So that is at least as good as they have it now. The flexibility of no conference tie downs to bad teams will allow them greater opportunity to schedule quality opponents. Heck, a game against Kansas is certainly better than Wyoming. With ACC, SEC, Big East, Big 10 and Pac-12 all having divisions, it should be too hard to get one opponent from each of those conference each year. Plug in the other three independents late in the year when they have a tough time with schedules, plus a Utah State and some D-2 school to beat up, and it is better than what they have now. Plus, they can probably go up to 7-8 home games. AND with their own TV station, they will have about 10X the market reach than they have now with the MTN. Who cares about an auto bid to a BCS game? Even if that happens every 5-6 years when they might be good enough, an extra home game every year and not being tied to the stupid MTN more than makes up for it. I like the move.


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## willfish4food

I have my reservations about the move. BUT, I will say, as has been stated, GETTING AWAY FROM THE MTN MEDIA DEAL WILL BE AWESOME!!!!!! I hate that we are bound to three stations one of which I don't get, and the MTN commentary is awful at best. Most of the time I watch the game muted with KSL on the radio. 

As far as the BCS bowls go, I don't think our odds of getting into one will be any worse than now or in any future with staying in the MTN. And even if we are at a BCS disadvantage, like Gary said, the extra home game and the better media market will more than make up for the financial aspect.


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## Riverrat77

bowhunter3 said:


> I could see TCU joining the Big 12 now. As far as football I just don't see how this is a good move for them. they aren't a draw like the Irish, they won't get an automatic bid to the bcs like the Irish would if they were in the top 8, the big schools still won't schedule them, I just see this hurting them.


I actually agree... that and any sort of conference respect the BCS might have given them for beating TCU and BSU had they stayed is out the window now. They won't crack the top 8 so no worries there, especially if they couldn't maintain that ranking through a MWC schedule.... they've kinda put themselves on an island as a novelty now which probably isn't going to do them any favors either because if they're out there by themselves, they've lost any voice they might have had against the BCS right? Aren't only the affiliated conferences allowed to vote? Just seems like a sour grapes deal where they didn't get picked up by a decent conference like they wanted so they'd just as soon go off by themselves. :lol:


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## Catherder

I'm not sure whether it is a good move for the cougs or not. (Utefan in me suggests that it may be a kneejerk reaction to the U getting into the pac-12) Having lived out of state for many years, I do think that the Y has enough national TV cachet to possibly make it work. 

However, recent developments this afternoon would suggest that the MTN West Conference has outflanked the Y by adding Nevada and Fresno St. The WAC would only be left with 6 remaining scrub schools. I don't think the Cougs want to play their hoops and other sports against only Idaho U, San Jose St., and LA tech. Maybe the Y will have to come crawling back to the Mtn. West for its other sports, even if it does go independent in football.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

I'd be very excited because I don't have cable or satellite to watch Mtn. or Versus. I do get BYU TV on my rabbit ears and digital box. I read one report that said BYU will contract its HDTV truck and technical crew to ESPN for all games. ESPN doesn't have to worry about bringing all that equipment to the games. Then the game will be broadcast on both ESPN and BYU TV. The numbers being thrown around are about half of what Utah will get in the PAC-12. That's still very good money and way more than they currently make. 
I do not believe independence will help BYU get into the BCS. I do think independence would garner MUCH more attention and revenue to BYU.


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## mm73

The plot thickens: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5474774

Read half-way down to where it states West Coast Conference commissioner is interested in adding BYU for its other sports. The WCC is a non-football conference, and a very well respected basketball conference that includes Gonzaga and St. Marys, two perennial top 25 programs. And all of the WCC schools are private religious schools, so it would be a good fit for BYU, not to mention the Church has about 2 million members living in the three west coast states. My biggest concern though would be where this would leave Utah State. Could the Aggies possibly join BYU in going indie in football (the Aggies have done it before) and joining the WCC in all other sports? The WCC + BYU and USU would become an even better basketball conference.


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## proutdoors

I first heard rumors of this a month or so ago, I liked the idea then, and I like it now. Add in that RiverRat is bad-mouthing it, and it is a sure fire brilliant move. This will allow BYU to schedule games with big name schools more easily than being tied to the MWC and their HORRIBLE TV deal. From what I have read, ESPN was in full support of this move, which means they think this is a money maker. If its a money maker for ESPN it will be a money maker for BYU. BYU has the best equipment in the NCAA for this kind of venture, and I will bet other programs with follow suit. Why be tied to having to play Wyoming/New Mexico/UNLV every year on a network only a handful of people can watch? This will give BYU more exposure on the East Coast which will help with recruiting LDS kids from there.

BRILLIANT MOVE!


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## orvis1

So we all agree that Craig Thompson should be shot right? I agree BYU is no Notre Dame but there are very few programs out there with that kind of clout and history. I think they have a shot at pulling this off but it likely would be no BCS for them unless ranked in the top 4-5 would be the drawback. But anything beats playing on the MTN network. I think Pro and I with camcorders could produce a better broadcast!


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## Packfish

Catherder said:


> I'm not sure whether it is a good move for the cougs or not. (Utefan in me suggests that it may be a kneejerk reaction to the U getting into the pac-12) Having lived out of state for many years, I do think that the Y has enough national TV cachet to possibly make it work.
> 
> However, recent developments this afternoon would suggest that the MTN West Conference has outflanked the Y by adding Nevada and Fresno St. The WAC would only be left with 6 remaining scrub schools. I don't think the Cougs want to play their hoops and other sports against only Idaho U, San Jose St., and LA tech. Maybe the Y will have to come crawling back to the Mtn. West for its other sports, even if it does go independent in football.


 If I were BYU I would crawl back for the other sports also- hate to see them have to play USU in basketball on a home and home schedule- I thought it was the wind howling out of Blacksmith Fork canyon this morning but it was the whining from happy valley already. (0:


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## Riverrat77

orvis1 said:


> So we all agree that Craig Thompson should be shot right? I agree BYU is no Notre Dame but there are very few programs out there with that kind of clout and history. I think they have a shot at pulling this off but it likely would be no BCS for them unless ranked in the top 4-5 would be the drawback. But anything beats playing on the MTN network. I think Pro and I with camcorders could produce a better broadcast!


So... this gets them out of what some folks consider a bad tv deal.... into what exactly? A new deal where ESPN might show a game if there isn't something better on (which is almost always the case), and their football program goes from being barely recognized as a halfway decent program in a crappy conference to complete anonymity in "independent status"? I don't see that being a wise move for recruiting at all.... no chance at a big bowl game (because, c'mon... independent or not, they're STILL BYU), not much in the way of tv exposure.... yeah, thats a great reason to go play football at BYU. Great move.... I wonder if they'll still be getting preseason rankings in the top 10 now that they've managed to escape playing with better teams? 8)

For the rest of their programs, going to the WCC, while it might fit their ideology or whatever, well.... I see that as a lateral move at best but hey... whatever. Its BYU..... and the sting of watching Utah move on to bigger and better things still has to be hurting, otherwise they'd have stayed put. They had BSU coming to play, TCU still in conference and seemed to do ok in baskeball in the MWC, so this reeks of desperation to do something to match Utah's big move.... of course like Catherder said, the MWC isn't going to be left hurting if BYU leaves. It almost sounds like they're just going to re-create the old WAC.


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## bowhunter3

I'm telling you if they make this move it will be the end to sports at BYU...


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## Catherder

I keep hearing that if the "Y" goes independent and enters into an agreement with the WAC for other sports, that they would also be scheduling some or all of the WAC schools in football too as part of the agreement. Good news for the Utah State rivalry (in football) such that it is, but...

If true, tell me cougarfan, how excited are you to switch games with Air Force, Boise St., and TCU for having Idaho, San Jose St., and New Mexico St. on the schedule nearly every year? :O>>:


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## mm73

bowhunter3 said:


> I'm telling you if they make this move it will be the end to sports at BYU...


Don't you think that is a little overly dramatic? It's a risky move, for sure. But it won't be "the end to sports at BYU" if it doesn't work out.

The best case scenario is BYU forms a partnership with ESPN to broadcast 3-4 marquee games a year, and then fills in the rest of its schedule with the likes of Army, Navy, Air Force, Utah, Utah State, and Hawaii. BYU gets to keep 100% of the revenues it earns from games that ESPN broadcasts (reportedly worth $3-4 million/year), and whatever games ESPN chooses not to pick up BYU broadcasts on KSL/BYU-TV (easily worth another $1-2 million/year). As far as bowl games, BYU negotiates with minor bowls like the Vegas, Poinsettia or Hawaii, and negotiates with the major bowls like the Fiesta Bowl for an at-large bid if it cracks the BCS Top 14. There is a lot BYU can accomplish as an independent with ESPN as a partner.

The worst case scenario is BYU flounders for a few years as an independent and then ends up back in the WAC (assuming it survives), or some other mid-major conference like C-USA.


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## bowhunter3

I'm telling you this is a bad move...What bowl are they going to get? Vegas? No they are tied into the Pac 12 and MWC, almost every bowl game is tied to conferences there is nothing for byu to negotiate.


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## mikevanwilder

I have to agree that this would be a big mistake for BYU to do. The only good that can come from it is a better tv deal. I really don't see ESPN picking up to many games maybe one a year or so. I think now that the MWC has added Fresno and Nevada the MWC could be a hell of a conference in 2011. If BYU stays I would say they would have a better shot at cracking the National Championship game then Utah does in the Pac-12. I think Utah will have one year to take the Pac-12 and that is the first. Then USC will be back and I think Utah will finish annually in the 3-6 area. 
But I guess its all about money which is sad sense it is college. 
BYU will be as popular as Navy and Army if they go independant. And mm73 if you think the fiesta bowl will take BYU if it cracks the top 14 your dead wrong, they won't even take Norte Dame unless they crack the top 8. Plus they said on ESPN that Navy and Army have to be in the top 2 to be considered for a spot in a BSC Bowl game. That is what BYU would be looking at.


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## mm73

bowhunter3 said:


> I'm telling you this is a bad move...What bowl are they going to get? Vegas? No they are tied into the Pac 12 and MWC, almost every bowl game is tied to conferences there is nothing for byu to negotiate.


EVERYTHING is negotiable if you bring enough to the table. If BYU and Utah both leave the MWC then suddenly the MWC is not that attractive to the Vegas Bowl anymore. Sure, Boise State will still bring a pretty good crowd, but how many TCU fans do you think will travel to the Vegas Bowl? They can't even sell out their own 35,000 seat stadium! We all know the Vegas Bowl loves BYU, whether they are in the MWC or independent, it doesn't matter. What matters is they can be counted on to bring 30,000+ fans into town every time. And the same goes for the Poinsettia Bowl.



mikevanwilder said:


> And mm73 if you think the fiesta bowl will take BYU if it cracks the top 14 your dead wrong, they won't even take Norte Dame unless they crack the top 8. Plus they said on ESPN that Navy and Army have to be in the top 2 to be considered for a spot in a BSC Bowl game. That is what BYU would be looking at.


That was my best case scenario, and I was simply stating the BCS policy for an at-large berth. Notre Dame does not have to be in the top 8 to get an *at-large* berth. The top 8 requirement is for an *automatic* berth - there is a big difference. The top 2 requirement for Army and Navy is also for an automatic berth (which is shameful, IMO). If either one finishes in the top 14 then they are eligible for an at-large berth, and then it is simply a matter of economics - are they attractive enough to the BCS bowls that have spots for at-large berths. BYU was an attractive enough opponent for Oklahoma last year to play in the inaugural game in the new Cowboys Stadium. But I do agree that BYU would probably have to ranked a lot higher than 14 to be given serious consideration. It would probably be more like the top 5.


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## Riverrat77

How did the "marquee" games with TCU and Florida State work out for BYU? Now they've lost one of their best running backs and have "new" quarterbacks running their offense.... they better get tuned up this year, because they'll have the opportunity to pick all sorts of new marqee teams to lose to on national television now.


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## proutdoors

Funny how all the utefans are predicting the demise of BYU sports. Classic utefan circle jerk comedy! 

BYU has actually been discussing this since BEFORE the Utes jumped ship. I am perplexed how anyone could be so naive to think BYU would make such a move out of 'desperation' over the Utes "one upping them". Seriously, do you all really think that, or is it just what you heard from your team leader while on break from flipping burgers?

BYU has the equipment and the ability to broadcast games BETTER than the MTN and better than most 'professional' broadcast companies. They have a fan base that is spread across the country, and whether utefan or RiverRat want to admit it, their games WILL draw a large audience and this WILL be appealing to teams that want a few extra funds and more exposure. ESPN helped bring BYU on board with this, I will put more weight into their views on the matter more than utefan and some disgruntled Bay boy that whines more that the vineyards of Napa.

I'm headed to the hills in pursuit of monster wapiti, so flame away utefans and riverrat.


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## jahan

proutdoors said:


> Funny how all the utefans are predicting the demise of BYU sports. Classic utefan circle jerk comedy!
> 
> Painting with a mighty wide brush there, you may want to revisit this thread again and see that only two have bagged on it.
> 
> BYU has actually been discussing this since BEFORE the Utes jumped ship. *cough*cough*bull*****cough*cough* By all reports I have read they started talking about this in the middle of July.I am perplexed how anyone could be so naive to think BYU would make such a move out of 'desperation' over the Utes "one upping them". Seriously, do you all really think that, or is it just what you heard from your team leader while on break from flipping burgers?
> 
> I agree I don't think it is out of desperation, I think Tom Holmo is just trying to do what is best for the program and I applaud him for that, but with every big risk there can be big rewards and big loses. If BYU doesn't schedule well and win games this would backfire big time in their face.
> 
> BYU has the equipment and the ability to broadcast games BETTER than the MTN and better than most 'professional' broadcast companies. They have a fan base that is spread across the country, and whether utefan or RiverRat want to admit it, their games WILL draw a large audience and this WILL be appealing to teams that want a few extra funds and more exposure. ESPN helped bring BYU on board with this, I will put more weight into their views on the matter more than utefan and some disgruntled Bay boy that whines more that the vineyards of Napa.
> 
> I'm headed to the hills in pursuit of monster wapiti, so flame away utefans and riverrat.


I also agree that there broadcast will be better than the mountain and more widespread. Now the new and real issue with Nevada and Fresno coming to the MWC that really puts a damper on their original plans to move all other sports to the WAC. My USU Aggies could be in a real predicament if Nevada and Fresno really do make the move.  At first I thought the move looked good, but now with the potential of Nevada and Fresno coming over, it could backfire on them, I hope I am wrong. 8)


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## mikevanwilder

For a money stand point and broadcasting its a great idea. But as for a NC they are having a hard enough time as it is to be even considered for a BCS bowl game let alone the NC. If they go idependant they will have zero foot holds on pushing the BCS they will be on an island by themselves, no one will fight for there cause. They should stay and see what happens in 3 to 4 years when the BCS talks about adding another AQ. I still think BYU would be better as far a NC and BCS bowls go to stay. But if no one cares and just wants money then by all means go for it.
Oh and I'm in no way a Ute fan. I'm really not a supporter of either school as I have no affilations with them. But I do want both to succeed.I know thats impossible!


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## GaryFish

My thoughts -
-Knee jerk reaction -Not at all. This has been in the making for no less than three years. Broadcast centers such as BYU has built aren't done on a whim. These take a decade of planning, design, funding, and just building. The thing has been under construction for better than two years now.
-One-upping utahutes - Not at all. The ONLY reason Utah is in the Pac 12 instead of BYU comes down to religious bigotry. ITs not about quality of team or BCS games - they did invite Colorado before Utah. If it were quality team, CU would not be invited. It isn't academics - BYU is academically superior to Utah based on acceptance GPA and ACT, GRE/GMAT/LSAT/MCAT scores of graduates and every other common denomenator measurable. It isn't about fan base or facilities because BYU has more fans, in more places, filling larger stadiums, and superior facilities to Utah. But the Pres. of Stanford said he'd never allow a faith-based school in the PAC10. Period. So one up Utah? Hardly. Utah was taken as a left over for a conference expansion because there simply was no other alternative available. Remember, it wasn't until the Big 12 powers rejected the Pac 10 that Utah got the invite. Sure, utah got the invite, but it was only because the Pac 10 wasn't about to take Nevada, UNLV, Idaho, Boise, Utah State, or New Mexico. 
-Its about exposure. BYU uses many performing groups to extend the reach and exposure of the university. The Young Ambassadors, Ballroom Dance Team, Traveling music groups, and sports teams all put the BYU brand in places throughout the world. The contract with the MTN dropped the reach of the sports programs by several fold. It is bad. Even using their own network -forgetting about ESPN - BYU-TV is on more cable systems, more satallite packages, and therefore in more homes than ESPN right now. Broadcasting their own games reaches several times more households around the world than any contract with the MTN, or even ESPN. 
-The BYU broadcasting center has been years in the making, with this concept in mind. It is not a reaction to anything. It is a longterm, calculated and coordinated move. To ignore that is just naive at best, and ignorant at worst. 
-And lastly, any utefan thinking BYU needs to "one up" the great program the utes have, seems to have forgotten that the Cougs have still bested the utes three of the last four years, BYU outsells utah in season ticket sales, and consistently sells out the 60,000+ stadium while utah has a difficult time selling 45,000 seats at RES. So tell me, who is the little brother and who is the big brother here?


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## GaryFish

Now all that said, let me add the following thought. 
I spent most of today on an airplane with nothing to do but watch ESPN for 8 straight hours. In that time, I was hoping to hear more and learn more about this little shift in the wind in the MWC/WAC./and Happy Valley. And do you know how much air time ESPN gave it? None. Nadda. Nil. Nothing. About a two sentence scrolling thing across the bottom of the screen, but nothing on sports center all day. That is how important any of this is on the national scene.

And before any of my fellow Cougars start thinking we are all that and a bag of chips - recognize too that BYU vs. Flordia State - a marque game for BYU with one of the great football schools in the country - that game is relegated to ESPN-U. Which is in about 1/4 of the households that ESPN and ESPN2 are. It is the last tier in ESPN programming. THAT is just how important BYU is nationally. 

So because we live and die for our Cougars, we have to realize that nationally, we are considered at best, a nice story, and worst, a niche team but definatly second or third tier nationally. We really aren't nearly as cool as we think we are.


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## mm73

This quote from Tom Holmoe says it all:



> "I don't think that's a secret of our strategy," he said. "We have a great relationship with ESPN ... It's very difficult for us to get teams to come play us at the Marriott Center and LaVell Edwards Stadium. They don't want to come. They'll come if they're on ESPN. So that's the thing. We have a great relationship with ESPN and it will continue, regardless of how things go."


ESPN is the key to making this independence thing work for BYU. If ESPN is on board and wants to form a partnership with BYU then it can work out well for the Cougars because ESPN provides the money and the clout to help BYU schedule quality opponents. Without that BYU will struggle mightily to fill out its schedule every year, and to draw quality opponents to Provo. Good teams will not come to Provo to play on BYU-TV, but like Holmoe says, they will come if they are on ESPN. This whole independence thing hinges on how "great" this "relationship with ESPN" really is. Access to bowl games is another crucial factor, but I don't think that it necessarily has to be a BCS bowl. The BCS system is losing support every year and it may not be around for very much longer anyway.


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## GaryFish

Access to bowl games is nothing. Remember, there are 54 of them. And the access they have now is to crappy bowl games anyway. Worse comes to worse, make up a new one. The Energy Solutions Rio Tinto Crapper bowl. BYU vs. some crappy team. Its gotta be a better game than the Fort Worth, Abacracky, Poinsettia, or Vegas Bowls doesn't it? 

As for schedule - How can their schedule be any worse? They'll still play Utah. They'll still get 2 Pac 10 teams. They'll still get a couple of WAC teams. And pretty much any team they can plug in will be better than the MWC bottom feeders they play now.


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## Catherder

Can't sleep tonight, so a couple more comments.

1.


proutdoors said:


> Seriously, do you all really think that, or is it just what you heard from your team leader while on break from flipping burgers?





proutdoors said:


> I'm headed to the hills in pursuit of monster wapiti, so flame away utefans and riverrat.


Pro, such venom right before a nice relaxing hunt? I would have you know I am way above flippin burgers and pumped your gas on the way out of town.  Good luck on your hunt and when you come back, you can overreact to us utefan's comments as always.

2.


GaryFish said:


> Knee jerk reaction -Not at all. This has been in the making for no less than three years. Broadcast centers such as BYU has built aren't done on a whim. These take a decade of planning, design, funding, and just building. The thing has been under construction for better than two years now.


As a Utah county resident and having a sizable # of my friends and clients as cougarfans, yes, I have heard about the rumors for at least 2 years. However, the question has to be asked in light of the last 2 days events, why now? If the Y had thought it all through, and had all the dots lined up in a more thoughtful manner, then they wouldn't be in a position they are now. Looking for a place to play their non football sports, and the MWC seemingly out maneuvering them into possibly coming back into the fold. Reports I have read have stated that the BYU-WAC conversations began in early July, *after the U went to the Pac -12*, with the Utah State president as the intermediary. So yes, after seeing how it all is going down for the Y, my original statement is still supported by recent events.

As for the broadcast center, there are a lot more important things that will be telecast from it than just the BYU-New Mexico St. game. Sports is only a small part of its purpose.

3.


GaryFish said:


> As for schedule - How can their schedule be any worse? They'll still play Utah. They'll still get 2 Pac 10 teams. They'll still get a couple of WAC teams. And pretty much any team they can plug in will be better than the MWC bottom feeders they play now.


Keep telling yourself that. The WAC bottom feeders and the Sun Belt dregs they can scrounge up to complete their schedule ARE worse than the MWC bottom feeders IMO. At least you won't have to go to Laramie though, although I hear the Kibbie dome in Moscow is just as bad.



mikevanwilder said:


> But if no one cares and just wants money then by all means go for it.


+1. As I said before I do agree with the cougarfans on here that it probably is going to be a moneymaker for the Y.

4. One last thing. As a utefan, it has been fun to watch the events unfold and talk about them, but it is more with a detatched interest only, at least for me. None of this affects the U much at all, for obvious reasons. (I am married to an aggie grad and the events ARE affecting the aggies though, probably in a negative way, so we are a little bit saddened by that.)


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## orvis1

Wow Gary you are a little full of yourself aren't you? BYU TV in more homes than ESPN really? Have you been drinking the riverratt college football Cool-aide drink? BYU wants to be Notre Dame but does not have the history, prestige, or oh yea the NBC television football contract to pull it off. Like it or not if the golden domers are in the top 12 you bet they are choice for an at large birth to a BCS game even with their recent history of stinking it up in BCS bowls. It is simple economics BYU does not draw fans like a major program so unless ESPN is going to partner with BYU to show the games that lowly network ESPN, the Y is going to have trouble scheduling quality opponents. Without quality opponents a top 12 ranking would be almost out of the question for someone like BYU. BYU fans are insanely jealous that "little brother" has come up in the world with two successful trips to the BCS while "big brother" has had none. Utah was also selected because of it fitting in with the academic philosophy of the PAC 10 being a research school. Really Y fan congratulate the utes on the success I hope one of the major conferences take a hard look at BYU I think they have a solid program and could be a great addition to a conference.


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## Riverrat77

There are lots of folks with lots of good points here..... without taking bits and pieces from every one of the last ten or so posts, I couldn't fully point out what I agree with. I do think that BYU has pretty much hosed their football team with this move, which is fantastic in my eyes obviously, and like Gary has said, this BYU news is not a big splash nationally.... Utah got the spotlight and the MWC brought it back with their recent additions. BYU was like the kid on stage who has no room to perform and gets bumped behind the curtain while nobody notices. No secret I hate BYU...  The MWC will do fine without them (unless they let them whine their way back in), especially after bringing in FSU and Nevada.

As far as broadcasts go.... yeah, I don't think that having their own broadcast channel on the national availability list via cable or satellite means that BYU is going to be watched by more people unless you're just counting on more availability in LDS households. Honestly, I didn't even know they had that channel before I moved here from California and I tried to watch every football game on tv I could growing up so unless its just LDS households tuning in, it won't be a huge draw to the national audience now that they're out of a MTN contract.... trust me, trying to find games from other parts of the country that I actually want to see is near impossible around here without buying some all inclusive package on my dish. I don't see a bunch of people buying those just to see BYU. I can only imagine that teams from Utah have the same type of difficulty getting exposure outside of Utah unless they are playing a good team that just happens to have that game picked up by ESPN or one of the big 4 networks. Being BYU, I just don't see it happening when there are better games on all day.

As far as bowls go.... I'm sure they'll get picked up for some pre-Christmas "whos who of nobodies" bowl. Any sort of consideration for a good bowl, well they shot themselves in the foot there by losing any sort of conference affiliation unless they go and create the 2035th bowl game that nobody cares about. I'm sure they'll crow loud and hard about making it into that bowl game though. 8) With them going independent, I just don't see them getting the recruits or the national recognition that they'd need to even impact the top 14 to get consideration for an at large bid. Whether they like the BCS or not or whether its going to be around for a while or not is a moot point because at this point, they don't pull any weight as far as that is concerned. I do realize there is more than football at stake for them but unless you are just a BYU fan of everything, football, basketball and their religion are the only things they are really commonly recognized for. While the outreach programs that were mentioned might be great, they reach a miniscule portion of the national audience compared to the major sports teams BYU puts out there.


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## Riverrat77

Just an opinion here Craig.... ND has the history to support their claim to greatness but they've sucked the last few years.... they're having to re-earn prestige, just like Washington, Colorado, Nebraska, or any of the other schools that have gone through a rough stretch of losing. I don't think anyone is worried about playing the Irish at this point... they're just not the powerhouse they used to be, just because of an NBC contract. If they don't get better, it'd be nice to see NBC dump that game... because I don't know that many people are interested in watching the Irish take another beatdown on national tv.  They need Rudy back....


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## orvis1

Riverrat77 said:


> Just an opinion here Craig.... ND has the history to support their claim to greatness but they've sucked the last few years.... they're having to re-earn prestige, just like Washington, Colorado, Nebraska, or any of the other schools that have gone through a rough stretch of losing. I don't think anyone is worried about playing the Irish at this point... they're just not the powerhouse they used to be, just because of an NBC contract. If they don't get better, it'd be nice to see NBC dump that game... because I don't know that many people are interested in watching the Irish take another beatdown on national tv.  They need Rudy back....


You notice how I did not claim how dominate the Irish have been in the past 5 years it would be fair to say both Utah and BYU have had better teams. I dare say that Colorado and Washington are not in the same class as the Irish and Nebraska has taken a much further fall. If you remember it was just a few years ago that a Jamarcus Russell led team stomped the irish in a BCS game. To their defense they do play several difficult games with teams ranked in the top 10 the Irish have never ducked anyone. I am very hopefully that Brian Kelly has the brains to hire a quality D coordinator. It has been the defense that has betrayed the Irish the past couple of years not the offense. If I recall in last years draft we had a very high second round pick in Claussen and Golden Tate lets see how they pan out in the NFL.


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## Chaser

GaryFish said:


> My thoughts -
> -Knee jerk reaction -Not at all. This has been in the making for no less than three years. Broadcast centers such as BYU has built aren't done on a whim. These take a decade of planning, design, funding, and just building. The thing has been under construction for better than two years now.
> -One-upping utahutes - Not at all. The ONLY reason Utah is in the Pac 12 instead of BYU comes down to religious bigotry.And the fact that the Utes have made it to the BCS and PROVEN they belong there just a couple more times than BYU. ITs not about quality of team or BCS games - they did invite Colorado before Utah.This may be true to some degree, but its also about the market. CO and UT carry a decent sized market, (not huge, but OK). They brought in 2 schools that would mix well with the current ones, and help generate money If it were quality team, CU would not be invited. Do you really think they would have invited a team that is considered "TOP TIER"? These teams are well-established in their conferences...were they asked to join, they would have turned it down anyway, and the PAC-10 wouldn't want a team that could whip on everyone else anyway. It would be a slap in the face to OR, OR St, and USCIt isn't academics - BYU is academically superior to Utah based on acceptance GPA and ACT, GRE/GMAT/LSAT/MCAT scores of graduates and every other common denomenator measurable.But BYU is not a science and research school either. UT is, so they fit in It isn't about fan base or facilities because BYU has more fans, in more places, filling larger stadiums, and superior facilities to Utah. But the Pres. of Stanford said he'd never allow a faith-based school in the PAC10. Period. So one up Utah? Hardly. Utah was taken as a left over for a conference expansion because there simply was no other alternative available. So what's your point? They still got the invite, where your Cougs did not. Would you be saying the same thing if they had? I doubt that highly! Remember, it wasn't until the Big 12 powers rejected the Pac 10 that Utah got the invite. Sure, utah got the invite, but it was only because the Pac 10 wasn't about to take Nevada, UNLV, Idaho, Boise, Utah State, or New Mexico.
> -Its about exposure. BYU uses many performing groups to extend the reach and exposure of the university. The Young Ambassadors, Ballroom Dance Team, Traveling music groups, and sports teams all put the BYU brand in places throughout the world. The contract with the MTN dropped the reach of the sports programs by several fold. It is bad. Even using their own network -forgetting about ESPN - BYU-TV is on more cable systems, more satallite packages, and therefore in more homes than ESPN right now. Broadcasting their own games reaches several times more households around the world than any contract with the MTN, or even ESPN. While it may REACH the household, it does not mean it is being watched. Furthermore, I would contend that most people have no idea at all what this "BYU" channel is in the 5-600 section of channels on their DirecTV or DISH programming. To say that BYU is more watched than ESPN is ludicrous. How many people wake up in the morning and flip on the BYU channel to catch up on yesterday's sports events? Not many I would guess! Sportcenter is found on ESPN.
> -The BYU broadcasting center has been years in the making, with this concept in mind. It is not a reaction to anything. It is a longterm, calculated and coordinated move. To ignore that is just naive at best, and ignorant at worst. Sure, the infrastructure to broadcast is there, and so is the opportunity. But do you think BYU is going to be willing to spend the money necessary to market the channel? This would include ad space on other channels, as well as allowing ads on their channel. If you had a choice to advertise on ESPN, CBS college sports net, FSN, or one of the big three networks, over BYU channel, which would you choose?
> -And lastly, any utefan thinking BYU needs to "one up" the great program the utes have, seems to have forgotten that the Cougs have still bested the utes three of the last four years,Way to choose a small snippet of history to illustrate your point. Try going back to 1896 and then tell me the stat. BYU outsells utah in season ticket sales, and consistently sells out the 60,000+ stadium while utah has "HAD" should be inserted here a difficult time selling 45,000 seats at RES. So tell me, who is the little brother and who is the big brother here?


To me, this sounds like "Big Brother" is whining that little brother got a better deal. Own up to it Gary- you're upset that your Cougs didn't get the invite, and now you and all the other Coug fans are squirming as you wait to see what boner Holmoe and his cohorts in Provo are going to do next to ruin the future of BYU athletics. BYU should have just left well enough alone and stuck it out in the MWC for a few more years. Had they done so, IMO, they would have gotten a stronger football program, and positioned themselves for something bigger. But this whole independent thing is just a joke! Good luck to you BYU...you're gonna need it!


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## mm73

Again, the key to BYU's success as an independent is ESPN, not BYU-TV. The BYU-TV thing gives them the ability to broadcast the games that ESPN does not want, and BYU can monetize those to some extent, but the real paychecks will come from ESPN. The quality opponents will come to Provo because they will be on ESPN, not BYU-TV. Holmoe knows this very well and has been working on this plan with ESPN for years now, not just since Utah joined the PAC. It was ESPN that brokered the Oklahoma game in the new Dallas Cowboys stadium, and they were probably involved in negotiating the home and home with Texas in 2013/2014 that was just announced today. These are the kinds of opponents BYU is looking to schedule every year as an independent. Then they fill in the rest of the schedule with, for example, Oregon St, Washington, Utah, Utah St, Weber St, Hawaii, San Jose St, Army, Navy, Air Force and Wyoming. Thats as good or better than the schedule they typically get now, and they can get 4-5 of those games on ESPN, and broadcast the rest themselves, and keep 100% of the TV money. Even the conservative estimates have them making 5x more than they get from the paltry payout they get now from the Mtn, which, by the way, just got even smaller with the addition of Fresno and Nevada (two more mouths to feed).

Again, I am not saying this is a sure thing. It definitely involves risk. The nice thing about belonging to a conference, besides the guaranteed money and bowl tie-ins, is a conference can carry your program when it is down, and every program goes through down years (like the Crowton years). So it would definitely be a gamble if BYU decides to go through with it, and as we all know - gambling is not something BYU and the Church have a lot of experience with so it will be very interesting to see what they end up doing in the next week or so. My personal opinion is the horse has already been let out of the barn and they can't turn back now, but who knows...


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## GaryFish

> BYU-TV is on more cable systems, more satallite packages, and therefore in more homes than ESPN right now. Broadcasting their own games reaches several times more households around the world than any contract with the MTN, or even ESPN. While it may REACH the household, it does not mean it is being watched. Furthermore, I would contend that most people have no idea at all what this "BYU" channel is in the 5-600 section of channels on their DirecTV or DISH programming. To say that BYU is more watched than ESPN is ludicrous.


You make a VERY excellent point. Right now, the BYU-TV channel is in more households than any of the ESPN networks. But it clearly does not have but a small fraction of a single percent of the viewership. You are exactly correct. But the point is, BYU fan anywhere will be able to watch the games. Where now, with the MTN, that is not the case.

As for being bitter that Utah got the Pac-10 invite over, BYU, I honestly can say I am not bitter. Really. I think the Utes have a good product and will do well. I sincerely am happy for utefan not to be stuck watching games in Laramie, Fort Collins and Albacracky anymore. It is a good place to be. But at the same time, utefan needs to be realistic as well. The invite has nothing to do with the two BCS wins. It has everything to do with getting the SLC market (as well as Denver) and adding a championship game. I have to laugh at utefan that thinks that two out of this world seasons make them superior. I'm not going to invoke the legend of Lavell or 1984. Just looking at the two current coaches. Which team has the most wins? Which team has the most head-to-head wins? Really, it is so close that it doesn't matter. It actually came down to last years rivalry game to put BYU up by one, for now. That is how close the two progams really are. Both are exceptoinal programs in their setting.

Now, the real thing that my fellow Cougars need to face - We are not nationally relevant. We are a cute story when we knock off Oklahoma, but the reality is we are no where near considered among the elite. Remember just last year - the story nationally wasn't how a good BYU team beat OU - it was that Sam Bradford was knocked out because of an inexperienced line. This in all reality has triggered the largest shift in conference affiliations so far this year. And SportsCenter isn't even covering it. And allegedly, they are the network putting up $2million a game for some BYU games! That is just how nationally irrelovent BYU and the MWC/WAC are. or aren't.

This independent move takes a major pair to even consider. It is a VERY risky move. It will either succeed at a very high level, or it will fail miserably. I admire Holmoe for making the call to do it. BYU is not Notre Dame. But we aren't New Mexico either. In the worst of all cases - say after 3-4 years, this proves to be a total, utter disaster. What is there to lose really? BYU will still fill the stadium with 60,000 every home game. Some better quality opponents will come into LES so they can be on ESPN. And if it fails, after a few years, BYU can get back into a conference just as bad as the MWC simply because they have better facilities and fan support than any non-BCS school. So really, what is to lose in doing this?


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## Chaser

Really Gary, I hope there is nothing to lose. I hope they get more exposure, and I hope they get better. Just the same, I hope it doesn't ruin them, as it is a big risk to take. Time will tell. As a Utefan, I hope BYU gets better. I want the rivalry to continue, and it will help my Utes that much more when they play and beat a stellar BYU team.


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## mm73

The fact that BYU just landed a home and home with Texas in three years is telling. It tells me that BYU does not plan to be playing on the Mtn in 2013. Do you really think Texas would agree to come to Provo and play on the Mtn? BYU is planning to go with ESPN in the future.


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## bowhunter3

only the most ****y of byu fans could think this would be a good deal for them, and pro you are one of them, I have not seen any utah fans jumping on and killing the cougars for this because we hate your beloved team, this really would be the dumbest move ever, i would be sad to see it happen. Its not just Utah fans that are saying how dumb of a move this will be, I have read a lot of articles on it and most of it is slamming byu for this.


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## GaryFish

Those slamming BYU are those that stand to lose when BYU leaves the MWC. Reporters in Fort Collins, Laramie, and San Diego are going to complain about this. Why? Because the BYU games are the only games that they actually sell tickets. BYU is the best draw for every other team in the conference. TCU doesn't draw crap. Utah didn't draw crap either. And neither will Boise State. And I don't see fans lining up in droves to watch Wyoming vs. Fresno State. The reason other teams/markets are slamming the move is because it was the one game every year that they could actually hope to sell tickets and get on TV. 

Looking at it another way. The rest of the MWC (not BYU or Utah) is THRILLED with the MTN channel. They get more TV coverage than they ever have, or ever will. It is only BYU and to a lesser extent, Utah, that their TV coverage went downhill with the MTN. That is just how sad these other schools are. In fact, consider that teams are jumping the WAC to get to the MWC just so someone will broadcast their games.


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## Riverrat77

8 days.... and then the season is here. Can't wait.....


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> Those slamming BYU are those that stand to lose when BYU leaves the MWC. Reporters in Fort Collins, Laramie, and San Diego are going to complain about this. Why? Because the BYU games are the only games that they actually sell tickets. BYU is the best draw for every other team in the conference. TCU doesn't draw crap. Utah didn't draw crap either. And neither will Boise State. And I don't see fans lining up in droves to watch Wyoming vs. Fresno State. The reason other teams/markets are slamming the move is because it was the one game every year that they could actually hope to sell tickets and get on TV.
> 
> Looking at it another way. The rest of the MWC (not BYU or Utah) is THRILLED with the MTN channel. They get more TV coverage than they ever have, or ever will. It is only BYU and to a lesser extent, Utah, that their TV coverage went downhill with the MTN. That is just how sad these other schools are. In fact, consider that teams are jumping the WAC to get to the MWC just so someone will broadcast their games.


All hail to the mighty BYU! :roll: Sorry Gary, but this is about the biggest horse **** post I have seen in a while, oh and did I mention arrogant. :O•-: o-|| It hurts me to say that because you usually have the most rational post of anyone. Hey everyone has bad days and we all know I have a huge list of bad posts. 8)


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## bowhunter3

Why don't you cougar fans go to si.com and read the column that maddell wrote...

garyfish edit: Hope you don't mind, but here is the link to the column.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/w ... index.html


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## GaryFish

Jahan, I've actually been pretty realistic if you read back. I pointed out a couple of times that while this is quite the drama here, the rest of the country doesn't give two craps about it. And I still contend that BYU is the biggest fish in this stupid little pond. And that is sad. Especially when you consider the MWC and WAC (including BYU) are both completely irrelovent on the national scene. That irrelovence is even made even more pathetic when you consider teams like Fresno and Nevada are actually excited about the "great" TV deal they'll get in the MTN. And is it really arrogant to point out that BYU is the biggest draw in this stupid conference? That's just reality. 

I really don't know if this thing will work or not. It is definatly high-risk, high reward. It will either work very well, or fail miserably. But then again, what do they have to lose by going independent for a couple of years? Say this goes through. For 3-4 years, they'll schedule a bit better because teams will be willing to play in Provo without being stuck on the MTN. They'll win a few. They'll lose a few. And they'll get their product out there more than it is now. If after a few years, it falls apart, then they'll easily find a spot at the Conference USA or MWC table again, or even grabbing the best schools from the MWC and forming a new conference like they did when they teamed up for the MWC last time (after the Super-WAC failed) and be right where they are now. What is there to lose by trying to do SOMETHING? ANYTHING?


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> Jahan, I've actually been pretty realistic if you read back. I pointed out a couple of times that while this is quite the drama here, the rest of the country doesn't give two craps about it. And I still contend that BYU is the biggest fish in this stupid little pond. And that is sad. Especially when you consider the MWC and WAC (including BYU) are both completely irrelovent on the national scene. That irrelovence is even made even more pathetic when you consider teams like Fresno and Nevada are actually excited about the "great" TV deal they'll get in the MTN. And is it really arrogant to point out that BYU is the biggest draw in this stupid conference? That's just reality.So you really do believe this? Do you have any numbers to back this statement up? I assume if you say it it is usually true, so I imagine you can back it up. Like I said before your posts are usually very realistic, but I feel this is stretching, but I could be wrong, I got nothing to back up my opinion.
> 
> I really don't know if this thing will work or not. It is definatly high-risk, high reward. It will either work very well, or fail miserably. But then again, what do they have to lose by going independent for a couple of years? Say this goes through. For 3-4 years, they'll schedule a bit better because teams will be willing to play in Provo without being stuck on the MTN. They'll win a few. They'll lose a few. And they'll get their product out there more than it is now. If after a few years, it falls apart, then they'll easily find a spot at the Conference USA or MWC table again, or even grabbing the best schools from the MWC and forming a new conference like they did when they teamed up for the MWC last time (after the Super-WAC failed) and be right where they are now. What is there to lose by trying to do SOMETHING? ANYTHING?


What ever happens I truely do wish the best for BYU, but after thinking about it more I think it would be best if they swallowed their pride and stayed in the MWC. Anyways, I am very interested to see what BYU does.


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## GaryFish

jahan said:


> And is it really arrogant to point out that BYU is the biggest draw in this stupid conference? That's just reality.So you really do believe this? Do you have any numbers to back this statement up? I assume if you say it it is usually true, so I imagine you can back it up. Like I said before your posts are usually very realistic, but I feel this is stretching, but I could be wrong, I got nothing to back up my opinion.


Now you have me curious. So I looked up three MWC schools that played host to BYU in 2009. Here is what I found. (according to wikipedia so who knows if its true.)

New Mexico - BYU drew 24K fans, but Tulsa (30K), Air Force (26K), New Mexico State (35K), UNLV (24K), all drew more. Only the Colorado State game (21K)had fewer than the BYU game.

SDSU - BYU drew 30K fans. Southern Utah drew 42K(I question that number), New Mexico 12K, TCU 21K, Wyoming 18K, and New Mexico State 21K.

UNLV - BYU drew 25K fans. The rest of the Rebel schedule drew: Sac. State (22K), Hawaii (29K), Oregon State (25K), Utah (26K), CSU (15K), and SDSU (13K).

So, in eating my words here, BYU was not the top draw for these three schools. (though I still question 42,000 for SDSU-Southern Utah - Really?)


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## Riverrat77

I was at the UNLV game last year.... 20,000 of those were Utah fans.


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> 
> And is it really arrogant to point out that BYU is the biggest draw in this stupid conference? That's just reality.So you really do believe this? Do you have any numbers to back this statement up? I assume if you say it it is usually true, so I imagine you can back it up. Like I said before your posts are usually very realistic, but I feel this is stretching, but I could be wrong, I got nothing to back up my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you have me curious. So I looked up three MWC schools that played host to BYU in 2009. Here is what I found. (according to wikipedia so who knows if its true.)
> 
> New Mexico - BYU drew 24K fans, but Tulsa (30K), Air Force (26K), New Mexico State (35K), UNLV (24K), all drew more. Only the Colorado State game (21K)had fewer than the BYU game.
> 
> SDSU - BYU drew 30K fans. Southern Utah drew 42K(I question that number), New Mexico 12K, TCU 21K, Wyoming 18K, and New Mexico State 21K.
> 
> UNLV - BYU drew 25K fans. The rest of the Rebel schedule drew: Sac. State (22K), Hawaii (29K), Oregon State (25K), Utah (26K), CSU (15K), and SDSU (13K).
> 
> So, in eating my words here, BYU was not the top draw for these three schools. (though I still question 42,000 for SDSU-Southern Utah - Really?)
Click to expand...

Hey it takes a real man to admit when they are wrong, I respect that. I also question that 42,000 number. Anyways, I will agree they are a big draw, but to say they are the biggest is what I was contesting.


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## bowhunter3

Pretty sure the SUU game was the homecoming game


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## GaryFish

Since the post yesterday, I looked some more today to see if BYU is the biggest draw in the conference. The three previously mentioned schools all had BYU come to their place last year. The only other MWC that had BYU come to their place last year was Wyoming. Here is how Wyoming's home attendence breaks out. Again, according to wikipedia.

Wyoming Home Games attendence:
Weber State - 18K
Texas (Yes, that Texas) 31K - Highest of the year
UNLV - 19K
New Mexico - 14 K
BYU - 19K
TCU - 15K

So even as much as Wyoming hates BYU, they still packed 12K more fans, either their own or Texas', for that game with a clear national power. BYU attracted as many fans as UNLV. 

Its looking like we aren't nearly as cool as we think.


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## GaryFish

So I went to the 2008 season, to see where BYU stood for the teams they played that year on the road - so the other four teams from what I already listed. Two of BYU's road opponents don't have attendence listed - Air Force and USU. But here is how the other four teams fared in home attendence with BYU coming to town.

Washington Huskies
BYU - 64K
Oklahoma - 67K
Stanford - 61K
Oregon State - 63K
Notre Dame - 70K
ASU - 57K
UCLA - 59 
So for UW, BYU outdrew every Pac10 opponent, with only OU and ND putting more in the stadium. Interesting.

Utah Utes - Pretty much sold out every home game. 
UNLV, Weber State, Oregon State and TCU all had 45,xxx in the stands. CSU put 44K. BYU put 46K. A little more for the BYU game, but pretty much a wash. 

TCU - 
Stephen Austin 27K
Standford 25K
SDSU 30K
BYU 36K - Top draw for the year in Fort Worth.
Wyoming - 30K
Air Force - 32K

CSU -
Sacramento State =- 20K
Houston - 21K
UNLV - 19K
TCU - 27K
BYU - 20K
New Mexico - 17K
So BYU as many fans in Fort Collins as Sacramento State?!?! That is just sad.


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## bowhunter3

I think BYU is a big draw where there fans from SLC and Happy Valley can travel to, other than that I would think they are about the same as Utah as far as draws go


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## GaryFish

So now the report is that BYU is going to stay put. Hmmmmm. Interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about that one. Even adding Nevada and Fresno State, it is still the MWC. 

A very interesting thing in this whole deal is that not one of the "sources" in any of the discussion are from BYU. All have been from other schools. Could it be that this whole thing was a bluff? An attempt by some other schools to get something better for themselves? Blow up the WAC? I'm not a conspiracy theory guy so I really doubt those things. But its kind of interesting to me that BYU has been completely mute on the entire issue.


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## bowhunter3

Yeah, I read that, it came from a Colorado St. paper I think...I just don't think BYU is that dumb, I think they could have started the rumor to get a Texas like deal


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## jahan

bowhunter3 said:


> Yeah, I read that, it came from a Colorado St. paper I think...I just don't think BYU is that dumb, I think they could have started the rumor to get a Texas like deal


See this is where we differ, I don't think they started the rumor, I think it slipped out and BYU kind of got cornered by the MWC. If info. would of never leaked I think we would be reading about BYU going independent and joining the WAC in all other sports. The MWC isn't dumb, they contacted USU right after the rumor started about BYU leaving the conference, to try and get USU to come to the MWC to get BYU to stay. USU turned them down due to the new contract they signed with the WAC and they were the ones talking to BYU about joining the WAC so they couldn't back out on BYU. Then Fresno and Nevada jumped ship and screwed everyone over.

I have heard rumors that the MWC will invite the University of Houston to join the conference to make 12 teams. I was hoping they would invite USU.


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## proutdoors

bowhunter3 said:


> only the most ****y of byu fans could think this would be a good deal for them, and pro you are one of them, I have not seen any utah fans jumping on and killing the cougars for this because we hate your beloved team, this really would be the dumbest move ever, i would be sad to see it happen. Its not just Utah fans that are saying how dumb of a move this will be, I have read a lot of articles on it and most of it is slamming byu for this.


Pray tell, how am I being '****y'? Because I point on the TRUTH? There is only ONE reason for utefan to badmouth this move, and you KNOW IT. Funny thing is, when the Utes jumped on the invite to the PAC10 I saw very few snide remarks from BYU fans. Now I ask, whose fans are the ones quick to dog pile on the opposing team when a perceived bad move/season occurs?

At the end of the day, I do NOT care what utefan thinks/says about the moves BYU makes, anymore than utefan cares what cougarfan thinks/says about moves the utes make. Time will tell if this is a wise move or not, but I put more stock in the opinions of those directly involved than those being Monday morning QB's from locations that dislike pert near everything BYU does. If that makes me '****y', so be it. I think I will sleep just fine knowing utefan thinks so low of me because I disagree with their biased opinion of BYU having the sack, the will, the means, to go out on a long thin branch. 8)


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## Riverrat77

jahan said:


> I have heard rumors that the MWC will invite the University of Houston to join the conference to make 12 teams. I was hoping they would invite USU.


I don't really care about USU one way or another but if BYU winds up staying, USU would seem to be the next logical fit to keep an in state rivalry.... I don't know anything at all about Houston... just seems if you're shooting for a "mountain west" conference, USU is right there.


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## bowhunter3

proutdoors said:


> bowhunter3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> only the most ****y of byu fans could think this would be a good deal for them, and pro you are one of them, I have not seen any utah fans jumping on and killing the cougars for this because we hate your beloved team, this really would be the dumbest move ever, i would be sad to see it happen. Its not just Utah fans that are saying how dumb of a move this will be, I have read a lot of articles on it and most of it is slamming byu for this.
> 
> 
> 
> Pray tell, how am I being '****y'? Because I point on the TRUTH? There is only ONE reason for utefan to badmouth this move, and you KNOW IT. Funny thing is, when the Utes jumped on the invite to the PAC10 I saw very few snide remarks from BYU fans. Now I ask, whose fans are the ones quick to dog pile on the opposing team when a perceived bad move/season occurs?
> 
> At the end of the day, I do NOT care what utefan thinks/says about the moves BYU makes, anymore than utefan cares what cougarfan thinks/says about moves the utes make. Time will tell if this is a wise move or not, but I put more stock in the opinions of those directly involved than those being Monday morning QB's from locations that dislike pert near everything BYU does. If that makes me '****y', so be it. I think I will sleep just fine knowing utefan thinks so low of me because I disagree with their biased opinion of BYU having the sack, the will, the means, to go out on a long thin branch. 8)
Click to expand...

Please did you not read the papers, BYU fans went crazy over Utah leaving. Its amazing just how one sided and hypocritical you actually are...


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## bowhunter3

its interesting to read what really went down, and how BYU had to come back crawling on there hands and knees back to the MWC, really shows how classy they are


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## GaryFish

Where would you suggest I can find a story of what really went down?
Please direct.


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> Where would you suggest I can find a story of what really went down?
> Please direct.


I am not familiar with an overall article, but I know USU released a letter stating their standpoint and it wasn't a BYU bashing at all, it sounds like to me USU and BYU were working together to make things happen. Now with all of the other crap that happened it looks like USU/WAC were hung out to dry by Nevada and Fresno State, but I don't blame them for leaving the crappy WAC.


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## bowhunter3

GaryFish said:


> Where would you suggest I can find a story of what really went down?
> Please direct.


They released the email messages I watched it on the news, I think you can read some of them on the tribune


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## GaryFish

Thanks. I'll look around and if I find something written, I'll post up the link. Do the same if you don't mind. 

All team loyalties aside, I think this would be one heck of a case study for any communications student, on information management, controlled media leaks, proxy informants, and the like. It is interesting to me, that BYU has not said a single word about any of it, but the soap opera has gone on as it has. It really is an interesting case study in all that.


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## bowhunter3

KSL is also reporting on one of there blogs that he still thinks BYU is going independent I don't see it happening this year now, but that is what he is thinking


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## jahan

Here is the letter from USU.

http://www.utahstateaggies.com/genrel/081910aab.html


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## GaryFish

Here is the link to the Trib article that tracks the email discussions through USU.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/sports/501 ... n.html.csp


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## bowhunter3

yeah, I don't know how to post links lol! I am trying to find all the emails, I know there is more so I will keep looking


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## GaryFish

Thanks for the link Jahan. One thing I find kind of interesting is wasn't it "unnamed sources" at USU that leaked the plans to the media prematurely? Just sayin'.


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## GaryFish

bowhunter3 said:


> yeah, I don't know how to post links lol! I am trying to find all the emails, I know there is more so I will keep looking


Here is another trib article with the emails.
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/sports/501 ... e.html.csp


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> Thanks for the link Jahan. One thing I find kind of interesting is wasn't it "unnamed sources" at USU that leaked the plans to the media prematurely? Just sayin'.


I never heard that, if it truly was, that was a very stupid thing to do on USU's part.


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## Comrade Duck

bowhunter3 said:


> its interesting to read what really went down, and how BYU had to come back crawling on there hands and knees back to the MWC, really shows how classy they are


Where did you read that? As far as I can tell BYU hasn't made a decision yet. Still weighing their options. A lot of sources close to the program, other than a blogger out of CSU, still think that they are going independent unless comcast is willing to meet their demands. This thing isn't finalized yet.

How exactly did BYU show their class? Did you really read the articles?

Shane


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## Comrade Duck

Somebody who still thinks they go independent:

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=498&sid=12167861

Shane


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## Huge29

Seems like the only viable option remaining is independence. I love to see the Ute fans version of things: "crawling back"-first of all, they never left! "Classy" certainly that is a joke!


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## Comrade Duck

Huge29 said:
 

> Seems like the only viable option remaining is independence. I love to see the Ute fans version of things: "crawling back"-first of all, they never left! "Classy" certainly that is a joke!


I think you're right. I just don't see them going back to the MWC after the way things have turned out.

Shane


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## Comrade Duck

Some more info on the subject:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogs/byus ... l.html.csp

Shane


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## Riverrat77

Three days till the season opener for the Utes..... can't wait. About independence, just go ahead and take that leap already.... if you stay now after all the independent talk and the emails about the plans with USU behind the scenes you look like the NCAA's biggest P-words ever....using innuendo's, veiled threats, secret meetings and all of that to give the impression of leaving and then backing out because your plan wasn't going to work anyway. Might as well go and try it out... if it doesn't work, some conference that has tolerance for shenanigans like that might let you come play with them. If it does work out ok, then you'll get a little credit from somebody somewhere for having brass balls big enough to go off by yourself. Either way... this is like the Brett Favre drama... the more play it gets in the papers, the lamer the whole thing sounds.


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## GaryFish

One thing about it - can't fault the Bee Why for trying to do something - anything - to make things better. If they quit trying, then what?


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## Riverrat77

GaryFish said:


> One thing about it - can't fault the Bee Why for trying to do something - anything - to make things better. If they quit trying, then what?


Good point Gary. If they truly were getting hosed with the Mtn deal, anything, even being out by themselves, has to be better than how things were I guess. And you know, if they do go out and make it on the independent road.... good for them. There is something admirable about taking that leap and doing something different, whether I like the school or not. Do I think it'll take off and they'll be the hottest new thing? Nah, not really, but I can't fault them for trying to make a move to improve their situation. Who knows... a couple years might go by and they'll rejoin the MWC and with all the WAC teams melted in as well, be the new mid major super conference or something.


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## Yonni

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5517305

Going to the WCC for all other sports, official announcement next tuesday!


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## Huge29

I was just about to post the same article; I was not even aware what the WCC was all about. I think this will be a good move, of course the long term plan would be landing in a bigger conference.


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## mikevanwilder

Well I hope it works out for them. I am excited to watch the basketball in the WCC. Gonzaga and St Mary's will be some good games. I hope and maybe it will come out in the news confrence that they have a deal with ESPN.


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## UintaMan

Greetings from the great State of Alaska all. I'm glad I can still keep up with my cougs all the way up here and thought I would give my two cents worth. I absolutely love the fact that BYU decided to go independent in Football, however, aside from BYU basketball getting to play Gonzaga, this is a horrible move for the rest of BYU sports! A big step down as far as basketball is concerned and some of BYU's well known sports are not even played in the WCC. Again I love it for the football aspect, but to throw away all the other sports programs at BYU just to give the football program their independence is not cool. Unless, this is just a short term fix because BYU is so fed up with the MWC. I think this may well be the case because If I know BYU they just aren't going to throw all their sports programs under the bus after all these years of building them into National Powers. I think they have made this move, knowing that they are going to be joining the big 12 when they go back up to 12 teams in the next year or two or will re-form the WAC with the best teams from the MWC and the WAC. I in know way believe this is a long term move.


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## mm73

Looks like a rivalry with Notre Dame might be in the works...

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/20 ... -move.html


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## Riverrat77

Hey, somebody the Irish might have a shot at beating.... good call.


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## jahan

Well watched part of the press conference on my lunch and it looks like a pretty good deal for BYU. ESPN will show all of their home games. Pretty good deal, not a huge fan of them joining the WCC, but I think they are just using it as a temporary home anyways. I wish BYU the best, if they do well this could work out very well for them.


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## GaryFish

So, for the next 8 years, ESPN picks up every BYU home game, and BYU so far has scheduled home and home series with Texas, and a 6 year home/home thing with Notre Dame. Sure, the Irish aren't what they used to be, but it sure beats watching New Mexico and UNLV come to town. So far so good. But 8 years with every home game on ESPN? Its a good day to be a Cougar.


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> So, for the next 8 years, ESPN picks up every BYU home game, and BYU so far has scheduled home and home series with Texas, and a 6 year home/home thing with Notre Dame. Sure, the Irish aren't what they used to be, but it sure beats watching New Mexico and UNLV come to town. So far so good. But 8 years with every home game on ESPN? Its a good day to be a Cougar.


Keep in mind though, if BYU is sucking it up that could mean ESPN2 at 8 on Thursday. On the flip side, if they are kicking butt that means College Game day and good times on ESPN. Overall I think it is good for BYU.


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## Riverrat77

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... AD9HVA9CG3

So.... ESPNU or ESPN Deportes? It just says one of their channels..... Somehow I just don't see ESPN touting BYU as a main attraction on ESPN or ESPN2 over schools with better programs out there. I doubt they'd risk the ratings loss like that.

Ok, kicked it around with folks here in the office and we're pretty sure they're going to announce the new ESPNBYU channel here shortly. They have all the local channels like ESPN Boston, ESPN New York and now they have one specifically for folks who like all things mediocre in quality but with an underlying religious theme to the broadcast.


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## mm73

If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto *the Mtn*, remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove, and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Matthew 17:20

Sorry. I couldn't resist.


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## mikevanwilder

Yeah what is the ESPN deal? Does anybody know exactly what channels they will be on? Like RR77 said I don't see them being on ESPN or ESPN2 unless there is nothing else on.


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## mikevanwilder

Maybe ESPN will start a new channel ESPNBYU. And won't the Norte Dame games be on NBC?


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## GaryFish

The ESPN deal just means it will be on one of the channels. My guess is most will be on ESPN-U. Consider that the Florida State game this year is on ESPN-U - and that is one of the biggest programs in the nation. So I look at that as an indicator. Sure, they won't be the featured game each week. But even the second game on ESPN-U six times a year is better than the MTN. And the Notre Dame games in South Bend will be on NBC. The games in Provo are according to BYU's TV deal. Which has been a huge scheduling deterant for BYU and Utah in recent years. Decent teams expect decent TV - and they weren't getting it when they came to SLC/Provo to play.


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## GaryFish

I'm really glad the annoucnement came when it did. I was about to re-up with Direct TV for two years. I'll just hold out now until the end of this season and switch to Dish. Cool.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

They just released some details of the agreement: 8 year contract with ESPN, 3 games guaranteed per year on ESPN with the option to pick up more. BYU TV retains the rights to broadcast all games, including a re-broadcast on game day of the ESPN games after the ESPN broadcast is over. 
This just makes my day. Every BYU game will be available at my home. I don't need cable or satellite to watch BYU football or basketball for the next eight years. 8)


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## GaryFish

Don't confuse BYU-tv with KBYU. KBYU is channel 11, th PBS station. BYU-TV is a different station all together.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> Don't confuse BYU-tv with KBYU. KBYU is channel 11, th PBS station. BYU-TV is a different station all together.


Oh, buddy, I'm not confused in the least! I've been watching the re-broadcasts of BYU basketball games on BYU TV ever since the digital switch last year. It comes in on my little digital box. It's channel 11-2.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

Here's a taste of the schedule: 3 year deal with Texas, 6 year deal with Notre Dame, Utah and Utah State every year, home and home with Boise State. They have a 10 year deal with Hawaii in the works to get back to ruling the island recruits. Then some crappy filler games with WAC teams like San Jose St., Idaho, New Mexico St. and Louisiana Tech. That gives them 10 games a year for the next 3 years; they'll have to pick up probably a few games each season to fill out the schedule.


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## Comrade Duck

As I understand it BYU will have six, sometimes seven, home games a year. Three of those games are guaranteed to be on either ABC or ESPN or ESPN2. They are then guaranteed a 4th game on at least ESPN U. The remaing games are at ESPN's discretion. If they don't want to show the game then BYU retains the rights and can produce it through BYUtv. I believe with those rights an outside buyer such as ksl or Kjzz can show the game with BYUtv doing the broadcast work like back in the days of Sportwest.

http://es.pn/aorQea

Shane


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## mm73

Thanks for posting that link Comrade Duck. Here are the pertinent details...



> ESPN will receive first selection rights to all BYU home games and any neutral site matchup where BYU is the designated home team. Details include:
> 
> * An annual minimum of three games on ESPN, ESPN on ABC or ESPN2, including telecasts on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays.
> * An annual minimum of one game on ESPNU.
> * ESPN3.com, ESPN Mobile TV and ESPN GamePlan will be able to simulcast any ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPN on ABC telecast.
> * BYU content will also be available on ESPN Classic, ESPN.com and ESPN Mobile Properties.
> 
> Any games not selected by ESPN will be available on BYU Broadcasting.


Also, I recall Holmoe stating in response to a question by the media that most games will be Saturday, but that some will also be on weeknights. Personally I dont mind the weeknight games, and you can make the argument that they are even better for exposure because you are not competing with the other 100 games being played on any given Saturday. More people will watch your game because it is probably the only game on. Boise State got great exposure this way.

Dick Harmon estimates that ESPN is paying between $700k and $1.2m per game: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7000 ... .html?pg=2

If true that means BYU will make between $4.2 and $7.2 million per year (based on 6 home games per season) from the deal, not including any possible revenue through BYUtv.


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## mm73

This is an outstanding article about BYU on a Navy Football blog.

http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2010/09 ... -club-byu/


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## Huge29

Among all of the criticism about how the Y is not Notre Dame and how the Y is so arrogant; ND's AD said the following about the Y's decision:


> Independence is not for everybody, but they (BYU) certainly fit the profile of an institution for whom it probably does make great sense - frankly, in the same way it still does for Army and Navy.
> 
> All the schools currently in that category have some common characteristics- national profile, strong history and traditions that are important to honor. BYU adds to that, as I think Notre Dame has, media access. Not everybody can produce on their own. I know precious little of the details, but it certainly looks like a smart move, from where I sit.


I would trust his opinion much further, as someone with direct experience, than the writers from San Diego and Denver; both of which seem to feel slighted for some reason.


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