# Learning to Field Judge



## Dirtbag08 (Apr 30, 2013)

My father is getting pretty close (so we hope) in drawing out his LE bull tag and I am trying to get better at scoring these awesome animals. Just curious as to how you would score him off of these pics.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I agree with what others are saying about not getting too caught up in score but I kind of have a system like what Vanilla presented.

280-310= average LE bull / Good bull
310-330= big bull
330-350= very big bull
350-375= Huge/Giant
375+= record book B&C consideration / top tier bull

I would say your pictured bull is in that "very big bull" class.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Really pretty bull, very proportionate. Main beams look kinda short and that's throwing me off a bit. But with just my phone screen, I would put that bull in the 320-340 range.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

What I have tried to do, and am still trying to get good at, is classify bulls rather guess the score. I look for specific characteristics necessary to move bulls up to the next classification, or those lacking that might move a bull down. 

I classify them as follows:
310-330-big 
330-350-really big 
350-370-huge 
370+ freaking ginormous

It doesn’t always work, but 20 inches on a mature bull just isn’t that much different on the hoof. Add 3/4 of an inch to each measurement then 2-3 inches on width and you’re basically there. Pretty close, anyway. Not many of us can really tell the difference. So I try to classify on first look, then start breaking it down to move it up or down. 

Don’t get too hung up on score. I know it’s fun to talk about, and it gives a good reference, but I’d happily kill the bull you posted. He’s teetering between really big and huge, with me leaning toward huge. He’s lacking on his thirds, and 5ths are decent, not great, so he may not have what it takes to get to huge. Velvet bulls are tough for me, they always look bigger.


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## Dirtbag08 (Apr 30, 2013)

Yeah, I have been trying to look for two things when I first look at a bull, wrong or right, which is the main beam length and the fronts. It seems that the fronts are fairly good length? Another is mass, which I still have a hard time judging especially in velvet like what was said. If it were my tag, it would be archery, he would be a first day shooter for me for sure. With this being my dad's first and probably last chance for a big bull tag, I want to do my best at getting him the best biggest bull I can.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Don't get hooked on inches. If you find a bull that he is happy with then shoot it. 

I know a couple of hunters that passed on a lot of bulls during their LE hunts only to come home mad that they didn't shoot one that they saw and empty handed.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> Don't get hooked on inches. If you find a bull that he is happy with then shoot it.


This.

-DallanC


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

I hope you guys have a great hunt once the time comes but you are setting yourself up for disappointment when measuring success by inches. 
I can't count how many guys have been on cloud 9 after shooting a 350+ bull only to come crashing down after the taxi scores it at 337 & 3/8ths like the bull in your pic. 
Be happy with the once in a lifetime experience. Plus it's more fun to respond with I've never had it scored when asked.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Critter said:


> Don't get hooked on inches. If you find a bull that he is happy with then shoot it.


+2 Great advise


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

+3 to the above.

My guess is that bull scores 330ish. If you are into hunting for score for the first time it can be tough. So much goes into it. Often, many guys who do it for $tens-of-thousands$ a year miss bulls by 40"+.

33% of LE hunters go home without a bull. The average LE bull killed in Utah is around 310. So 1/3 of hunters go home with a bull under 310. Of the 1/3 of hunters going home with a bull over 310, how many are 310-330. Then how many are really 360+? It is a smaller number than people want to think about.

I like to give a number when people ask- usually it is he scores a 10..... 

Best of luck to you guys. I hope he draws and shoots a mature bull, as the bull screams in his face, while you are standing by his side.


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## Dirtbag08 (Apr 30, 2013)

Thanks for the advice guys. I certainly agree that the inch game can get risky, so I'm sure when the time comes we will be happy with any mature bull. I imagine it can get difficult to keep a finger off a trigger when a mature bull screams in your face on the first day of your hunt, haha. This is also just some fun for me to think about during the off season as I dream about the future experience. Thanks for playing along with me.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The best way that I found to learn the inches game is to go to a display where there are a number of large mounted heads. They will usually have the score on a plaque that you can see and then look at the head to see what it looks like. 

I have a bunch of photos somewhere of a lot of mounted heads from a RMEF convention that I'll see if I can find and post up.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Dirtbag08 said:


> I imagine it can get difficult to keep a finger off a trigger when a mature bull screams in your face on the first day of your hunt, haha.


Thats an understatement. I had my bull at under 100 yards for 30 minutes screaming his head off while I tried to cow call him out of the junipers. He finally followed cows across a fence line and stepped out less than 60 yards from me. *BOOM*

-DallanC


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## Gledeasy (Mar 23, 2014)

I'll reiterate what has been said concerning inches. Fun to talk and dream about, but puts too much stress in the experience and fulfilment of the hunt.

Before I get to how I field judge I'm going to give some thoughts of my own, which may be useful if your dad draws the tag.

I've participated in 4 LE elk hunts in UT the last few years. I don't know if this will be your first LE experience, if it is you may be brought face to face with the learning curve of reality verses anticipation as was I. LE tags are not a slam dunk. Everyone's experience might be different, but you just as well shouldn't be led to believe that you'll be passing multiple mature bulls a day and that they will be bugling their heads off. Go into it with the thought process of it being a marathon not a sprint. There is no harm in trying to get something really big, but in all reality coming home with a 280-310 bull will be an accomplishment that percentage wise hasn't been done by the majority. If the trigger is pulled and an animal is harvested be happy with what it is and not wishing for what it isn't. Enjoy the experience because these tags obvously don't come around often.

My first experience LE hunting was with my dad on his tag. I walked away at the time being disappointed with eating tag soup, but as I look back at it I got to spend 10 days with just my dad and I enjoying the outdoors. Don't let inches or success get in the way of what's most important. The most stressful hunt was when I had a tag of my own. I worried way too much about making good on my opportunity that I really didn't enjoy the experience that much. The funnest LE tag I participated in was with my wife. It happened to also be the one with the fewest expectations.

Elk are so big I find it easier to judge a bull when there is a little more distance between myself and them. Even with our mounts I have to take a few steps back to get full appreciation of their antler size. I first look at the overall picture of the animal. Did it wow me, were the antlers proportionate throughout? Then I start looking at point length. Do the fronts reach to the nose and is there any curl? How are the 3rds and 5ths? Mass, beams, and width are things that add up but are also things I try not to micro judge too hard. I feel like most animals will be in a ball park range and the others will either have it or they won't.

Watch and look at lots of videos and pictures that show elk at distance then can provide scores at the end. As you study those things get an idea of, that's a bull we'd like to get. It may interest you what those bulls you'd be happy with actually turn out to be.

I'm done rambling but here's a few videos with some elk in it to get this going that I can provide scores to as well.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

My main critia for a LE hunt......
It just has to be bigger than the one (s) already on the wall.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

I have always judged on a scale

My last cow scored almost 200lbs


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Hoopermat said:


> I have always judged on a scale
> 
> My last cow scored almost 200lbs


Good lord I wish my boys from last fall had scored that. That **** thing had a rail weight at the butcher of 320. Biggest cow I've ever seen.

-DallanC


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

What would this bull score?
If you were after a 350" bull, would this one fit the bill?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> What would this bull score?
> If you were after a 350" bull, would this one fit the bill?


Really cant tell much about him other than he is wide. His swords dont look super long, nor do his 5ths. Browtines are nice and long though.

Need side view.

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I am not very good at field judging bulls or bucks for that matter. I do know what the characteristics of a "trophy class" animal are. After a few years of hunting experience and looking at a lot horn porn we can all judge width, height and girth/mass and especially a combination of 2 or more of these.

I put all animals into 3 categories, small, big and huge. I'm not too concerned about inches. Up until now I have only hunted for meat. When I draw the coveted trophy tag I will try to take the biggest one I find and that will become dependent on the factors available time vs available opportunity.


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## Don K (Mar 27, 2016)

Some really good advice on this thread


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> What would this bull score?
> If you were after a 350" bull, would this one fit the bill?


Ridge, that's a tough angle to tell for sure since he lines up so well it hides time length all the way back. From what I see here, I don't think he goes over 350. A side profile pic may change my mind. I don't know if it's just the angle, but his beams don't look real long. But again, really tough angle, and my opinion is subject to change. Got any other shots of him?


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## caddis8 (Sep 10, 2007)

Great advice. 

One thing to look at is body size relative to others. You can put critters into age classes based on body size pretty easy. Trouble is when a bull is alone. Then it can be tough. 

Looking at that particular bull, looks like a really nice bull. 320-340 is where I'd guess he's at. Velvet is so tough because they look like they have a lot more mass than they end up with. 

Nets are for fishermen. Meaning, don't worry about it. My Nebraska MZ antelope from a couple of years ago wasn't a huge buck. I tried to get on a bigger buck a couple of times earlier and I couldn't seal the deal. I had my boys with me and spotted a buck with my friend that was fairly close and very easy to shoot. He asked about it and I said "Big enough." Bang. Flop. Boys were on cloud 9. That's a trophy to me. I look at the euro mount when I walk by and remember that hunt. 

So, enjoy the time. Get out in the field. Spend time together. Take into account what the conditions are and then go hunt them. Be patient. Enjoy the experience. I had a great friend pass away this week at 57 from cancer. Too young. I missed a couple of invites he gave me to get out hunting with him and spend time together. I wish I would have taken him up on that. So savor the time with your dad. Bull or no bull. That's trophy time and that can't be measured in inches. It's measured in moments.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Ridge, that's a tough angle to tell for sure since he lines up so well it hides time length all the way back. From what I see here, I don't think he goes over 350. A side profile pic may change my mind. I don't know if it's just the angle, but his beams don't look real long. But again, really tough angle, and my opinion is subject to change. Got any other shots of him?


I guess the point I was trying to make was if this was a trail cam picture and this was the only angle you had. Does that bull look big enough to go after, if 350" is your bench mark.

Anyone believe this bull actually went over 360"?


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Inches is what I always heard when I was doing Taxidermy. The greatest "trophy" was not always the size of the head gear but, the story, and friends/family that were there and made it a successful memory!!! 

If your Dad likes what he see's, he should take the animal. IMO to many get caught up in the inches game.

I remember my first Elk I shot over 30years ago, and it wasn't a 400 class bull! Lucky if it made 100. Really don't know how many I've shot over the years. But I do remember that one.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

ridgetop said:


> I guess the point I was trying to make was if this was a trail cam picture and this was the only angle you had. Does that bull look big enough to go after, if 350" is your bench mark.
> 
> Anyone believe this bull actually went over 360"?


I'd believe it, but definitely think that pic is hard to gauge it's size by. But that pic would be plenty for me to want to see him in person if 350" was the goal. You can definitely see he's wide, and had very large fronts. Thirds look ok 4ths are hard to tell but the 5ths when you zoom in look good. Main beam length is the biggest wild card that is hard too get accurate guesses on that pic.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> Anyone believe this bull actually went over 360"?


It would not shock me at all. And if my benchmark was 350+, I'd definitely want another look at this bull. Depending on what I see, he may tip the scales for me.


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## Dirtbag08 (Apr 30, 2013)

Ridge, I'm curious as to what made this bull over 360" in your opinion. As mentioned above, angle isn't great but I look and notice mass, am I wrong in that assumptio? I appreciate everyones advice on here, I have been talking a lot with my dad about this and feel we are getting a better idea of how we are going to be looking at this hunt (hopefully this year). Fun times are ahead regardless of inches I guarantee.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

He looks really wide, but his 3rds and swords dont seem overly long.


-DalanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Good front end, good width, and appears to have good mass. But everything else is really difficult to impossible to determine in this picture. Definitely worth another look. 

It would not shock me if this bull was 370, or if he was 330. Beams, 4s, and 5s will determine how this bull ends up scoring, and you simply can't tell in this picture what those are. I'd love to see more pics, if ridge is willing to share! 

It's the offseason, ridge. Give us the goods, or I'm starting another Bears Ears or Expo thread!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Packout said:


> I like to give a number when people ask- usually it is he scores a 10.....




Sounds familiar. I love packout's thoughts on inches.

Go look at the LE Elk success rates. They would all be higher if people took a different approach. It's a tough predicament for sure, but a lot of people miss out on taking their once in a lifetime bull, because they are searching for social media's once in a lifetime bull.

The experience alone is priceless. Capitalize on that.

Edit: If you passed on that bull, I would consider smacking yourself.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Sorry fellas, I've been at the hospital visiting a family member.


Dirtbag, I believe what makes this bull scores high is that it has an above average inside spread. Real good G-1s and G-2s. Good mass and long main beams. The bull probably nets somewhere in the 350s.

This is the best picture I have of the bull.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

ridgetop said:


> Sorry fellas, I've been at the hospital visiting a family member.
> 
> Dirtbag, I believe what makes this bull scores high is that it has an above average inside spread. Real good G-1s and G-2s. Good mass and long main beams. The bull probably nets somewhere in the 350s.
> 
> This is the best picture I have of the bull.


I'm sure you guys taped him and I'm sure I could easily be wrong but I'm just not seeing 350s he is pretty short on the back end. I'd guess he is mid 330s but nobody pays for my guesses

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

That's a great looking bull, thanks ridgetop for sharing. Those thirds aren't all that bad for a Utah bull, and while the 4ths and 5ths aren't jaw dropping they still are pretty solid. Couple that with the width and long beams and that's how you turn what would "normally" be a 330-340" bull into a 350-360" pretty easy. That bull has to have at least a 45" if not closer to 50" inside spread. Those fronts belong on a +370" bull.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

weaversamuel76 said:


> I'm sure you guys taped him and I'm sure I could easily be wrong but I'm just not seeing 350s he is pretty short on the back end. I'd guess he is mid 330s but nobody pays for my guesses
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


weaver, your comment aligns with what Random was getting at.
I have not personally put a tape on that bull and in fact I've never seen it in person but a couple other people have taped it at around 360". My FIL gave this bull away to his son (my BIL), so I'm not sure when or if I'll ever see it because it now resides in Arizona. Also, my FIL already has a 350" bull on the wall and I have seen that bull on many occasions and can verify it's a solid 350" bull. I've had a few family members all tell me that this bull I've shared with you is bigger than his 350" bull on the wall. It would have been fun to get a picture of the two bulls together but that's not going to happen at this point. 
I have no reason not to believe what I have been told about this bull.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> That's a great looking bull, thanks ridgetop for sharing. Those thirds aren't all that bad for a Utah bull, and while the 4ths and 5ths aren't jaw dropping they still are pretty solid. Couple that with the width and long beams and that's how you turn what would "normally" be a 330-340" bull into a 350-360" pretty easy. That bull has to have at least a 45" if not closer to 50" inside spread. Those fronts belong on a +370" bull.


Really good front end, really good width, and average 3rds-5ths. I still don't know how good the beams are based upon this picture. I don't have a hard time believing this bull goes over 350 if his beams are better than average. I simply can't tell from the two pictures posted, but can see where he'd get over 350.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Really good front end, really good width, and average 3rds-5ths. I still don't know how good the beams are based upon this picture. I don't have a hard time believing this bull goes over 350 if his beams are better than average. I simply can't tell from the two pictures posted, but can see where he'd get over 350.


I look at the beams and compare them to the fronts. I can easily see more than 3 "lengths" of the right side second eyeguard along the beam, between 3.33 and 3.5 by my eyeballing. If the eyeguards are about 15" then that puts the beams easily into the 50" range, and I would guess the beams are in the mid 50s. The left side looks bigger in just about every length measurement by 1-2" too. The left sword judging by ridge's FIL's hand, assuming a 4" hand width for an adult man would be close to 20" if not more, and the right sword just a bit behind that. The right side third looks in the 12-15" range which is pretty good for a utah bull in my experience.

I'd put the numbers on this bull somewhere near the following (based on the smaller right side to be conservative):

G1: 16
G2: 15
G3: 13.5
G4: 18"
G5: 8"
MB: 52"

Total Right Side: 122.5"
x2= 245"

+55" mass + 45" spread credit = 345"

Because I believe there are significant differences left to right and the 345" is based on the smaller side, that would be closer to a net score--and I think nets are for fishes. With a 1-2" difference per length measurement for the left side that would place the gross score in the mid to high 350s.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

If the beams are mid-50's, then that is a 360 class bull. No doubt.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

And as to the philosophical bent that this discussion took, the way I choose to hunt is this. Yes, I like to look at and guess B&C scores because that is a set standard for comparing one bull to another and **shocker** I have a tendency to like bigger antlers and horns more than smaller ones. I see nothing wrong with having a "goal" for a given tag, and do so myself. But, because I obsess so much over pictures, mounts, etc and analyze how to judge those B&C inches, once I am in the field I don't need to break out the calculator to see if I am interested in a given buck or bull. I know it when I see him, almost instantly. But that feeling of when I know I want an animal, is never as simple as "how big are the antlers...do they have XXX?" I have both "exceeded" and "under achieved" on my numerical goals for certain tags, but I've never been disappointed with the blood I chose to draw. 

I wanted to try for a +375" bull on my 2016 LE tag--and I hunted accordingly. Almost sealed the deal on a 394" bull that in some ways still haunts me, but I don't harbor ill will to the lucky lady that was one ridge over at just the right time--at least I got to see her pull the trigger from the dirt seat I had carved with my butt cheeks over the prior 3 days. And looking at her kids' grins on social media holding their mom's giant bull makes me feel great about the future of hunting. I have no regrets on passing multiple 330-350" class bulls literally every single day of my hunt. I do however feel lots of frustration at the scope I discovered was broken when I tried to shoot a high 370" type 6 point a few days later and kept inexplicably missing. On my birthday. Seriously. That bull survived again this past fall so I am told. He had enough mass that 2 years ago had I managed to kill him the tape could very well have pushed him much higher than my guesses. I have some lingering frustrations about a missed rushed shot the final morning of that hunt at a stunning 350-360" bull with dark pine stained antlers and glowing polished ivory tips. But, public land competition, equipment failures and bull-fever are all part of hunting and why I love it. So, that last evening as the final lights of the closing day faded off to the west, when we spotted a group of smaller bulls that I had not given two thoughts' of consideration for on days 1 and 5 when we had run into them, I decided that I liked the one bull plenty enough to try to kill him. Didn't hurt that there was a road a few hundred yards away for a minimal pack out. After a 2 hr stalk across 1.5 miles of open sage to crouch for another 30 minutes on cramping legs waiting for him to stand less than 200 yards away I was thrilled to drop the 2nd biggest bull in the group. He looked older, more mature, was "prettier" and more symmetrical than the younger but larger bull, and in my estimation would never grow up to be a "giant" bull---but that younger one very well could be a giant now or soon, he definitely looked like he had it in him. 

I have not put a tape on my bull, and I don't need to. He definitely falls far short of the inches goal I aspired to, but he fulfilled every goal I took out into the field no question. He's every bit a "10" and he's also a "6.5" and a "~310-320." Hard to say if I would have been "happier" with that giant 7x7 (at least I have one side of his prior year's sheds!) or the massive Birthday Bull, or the Hastily Missed Black Beauty, but I don't think I would be "happier" or more satisfied because had I taken any of those bulls or others I'd seen I would have missed out on so many other great parts of my hunt. Hunting right up until the final minutes of the last day of the season and then getting to punch a tag on a great animal at the 59th minute of the 11th hour is about as perfect a score as I can think of. 

And hey, he was too big to take back on the airplane so I guess that says something! 
Hmm...I like the sound of this train of thought...

"How big was your bull? 320 class? 350 class?"
"Dude, I shot a Delta class bull!"
"Delta class? WTF is that?!"
"You know, too big for Delta's dimension limits for checked baggage."


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Good stuff, Johnny to the C. Good stuff. 

I’ve never been much of a trophy hunter. In fact, I’ve never even killed a bull elk, and most of the deer I’ve shot have been 2 points. I’m not ashamed of either fact, and I’m perfectly happy with killing a two point again this year. That said, if a little forky and a nice big 4 point are standing in the meadow together, and I’m by myself, I’m shooting at the big buck. If others are with me, they get to shoot the big guy first. But there is no doubt I’d prefer big antlers over small if given the choice. Some years when I really want the jerky, I’ll try to kill the first legal buck I see. Some years I’m not as intent on killing, and will let little guys walk. Not necessarily because I was hoping for a trophy, but just because I didn’t want to kill that deer at that time. And I’m okay watching them walk away. 

Now, when I lucked out and drew my Pauns tag, I went into that hunt with a much different mindset. I absolutely was “trophy hunting.” I figured that lightning had struck, and it would not strike again, and this was my one shot in my life to hunt a premium unit like that. Hopefully not my last chance to kill a really big deer, but I’m not likely to get another shot in my life at a unit like that. I don’t think I really had a number in mind, per se, but looking back, I’d say an unspoken goal was a 190 inch buck. Opening morning, at 7:45am, I saw a buck I just couldn’t pass up, and pulled the trigger. To this day, 5.5 year later, I’m still very happy with that buck. We rough scored him at 174 and some change, so definitely not the giant that some would hope for or expect on that unit, but he had unique characteristics and he looks great on my all. Of course, a 34 inch main frame 4x4 buck eases the worry about the overall number in a big way. But his score won’t blow anyone away, and that’s okay with me. 

Another example will be when I finally draw my LE elk tag. I have purposefully held out to hunt a premium unit. I could have drawn a great tag years ago and had an incredible experience, no doubt. But, I want to do a hunt where I have a legitimate chance at a monster. I keep telling myself that there is likely not a chance in the world I’d pass any 350+ bull, so why not go draw a lesser unit this year and just go after it. But the allure of having a chance to see a truly special bull draws me in for this hunt. When that magical day comes, I know it will be a great hunt, and if I’m lucky enough to kill a bull, I’ll be happy with it. The score will just be a number. Then I’ll go back to hunting spikes and cows and loving it. Cow elk hunting is my favorite!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I do remember my MIL commenting how extremely tall the antlers were on my FILs bull. She said they were at least a foot taller than herself at 65". So even if you deduct 18" off for the head those main beams were probably in the mid to upper 50s. She said it was a lot longer than his 350" bull.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

What do you guys think about this bull?
Somewhere in the 310-320" range? 
He has great back end on his rack, love those whale tail bulls.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I think *BANG* !!!!

Cool bull, kindof looks like the one I got, huge back end and whaletails. I wouldnt pass that bull up anywhere with any tag personally.


-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I might revise my guess tomorrow after pulling up that video on a bigger screen than my phone, but he looks to me to be a fair bit north of 320". 

Definitely a Delta, and maybe even a UPS class bull.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I would have a hard time passing on that bull Ridge. I'm with JC. He looks to be in the 320s or 330s range. His front end (what can be seen anyway) doesn't look above average, so that and probably mass, and maybe beam length, bring his score down. Who cares about inches though!! That is a beautiful bull that I would love to have on my wall.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> What do you guys think about this bull?
> Somewhere in the 310-320" range?
> He has great back end on his rack, love those whale tail bulls.


He's closer to 310 + (3x20) than he is 310-320.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

After looking at that bull with the benefit of a larger screen, I think he's a stud. Main beams look very good +50", width is a bit narrow but tall back end, solid fronts and thirds from the glances and while mass doesn't jump out as MASS he's definitely not skinny. Very proportionate bull too which always seems to make things harder IMO to guess the score. Without a better look at the front end I'd put that bull in the 340-360" range. Based on his body he doesn't look like an "old" bull either, maybe 7.5 years. If that was last year or the year before and he's still kicking he could be a GIANT this fall. If that video was from a couple years ago in the same little neck of the woods you were chasing pie and whales, then I could be convinced that that bull is Mr. Whaletail, similar tine spacing and shape to his main beams and my age guesses would add up to him being a 380-390" bull last fall (which seems to be where I remember you saying Mr. Whaletail ended up scoring). 

Ugh, I don't miss much about Utah, but elk are definitely at the top of that list. Then family.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> I think *BANG* !!!!
> -DallanC


I thought the same thing.


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## tander123 (Sep 21, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> What do you guys think about this bull?
> Somewhere in the 310-320" range?
> He has great back end on his rack, love those whale tail bulls.


I would shoot! Granted, I've never dropped a bull

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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

My guess of 310-320" was just for reaction, which I didn't get a whole lot of. 
When I saw that bull the day I took that video, I couldn't get my camera turned on fast enough. That bull really had the "WOW" factor. I would have guessed it to be in the 340"+ range the day I saw it.
Because of it's somewhat narrow inside spread and average mass. It may end up lower than 340" but I still think it's an awesome bull and I'd shoot it on any non top tier unit.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Here's another bull I called into about 60 yards. I'd guess he would gross score around 320" including that extra inline point on his left side. 
I really like the look of this bull and he could be something real special this coming year, if he's still around.

What's your thoughts?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

ridgetop said:


> Here's another bull I called into about 60 yards. I'd guess he would gross score around 320" including that extra inline point on his left side.
> I really like the look of this bull and he could be something real special this coming year, if he's still around.
> 
> What's your thoughts?


We've already been over this! Forget Pretty Boy, Papa wants his PIE!!!!

But seriously, I think that bull is probably in the mid 320s to low 330s, but a young guy. Maybe 5.5 yrs is all. He's got a gorgeous look too good and with the right conditions he could be a toad this year and a real giant in the next 2-3.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

This looks like a younger bull that I assume is on your general any bull area, and if so, would be an absolute trophy regardless of score! As you said, he’s got a great look to him. 

He might push 320, but give him 2 years and he could be a giant.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> This looks like a younger bull that I assume is on your general any bull area, and if so, would be an absolute trophy regardless of score! As you said, he's got a great look to him.
> 
> He might push 320, but give him 2 years and he could be a giant.


Call me ol fashioned, but this is a trophy on LE to me.

On general... well shoot dang!


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## Raptor1 (Feb 1, 2015)

I've got a Wyoming Elk tag this year, I see something similar and there's going to be some noise and hopefully a lot of shouting (in a good way)


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Would this bull go 330"?
I would think it should be close.
I'd have a hard time passing on it on most LE units.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

ridgetop said:


> Would this bull go 330"?
> I would think it should be close.
> I'd have a hard time passing on it on most LE units.


Well, his thirds are short and uneven. His main are short and the tail turns in.......

I am just kidding. Shoot it!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Well, his thirds are short and uneven. His main are short and the tail turns in.......
> 
> I am just kidding. Shoot it!


I'm not sure his mains are all that short. The way they turn in is what I like most about this bull. He looks to have pretty good mass too.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

ridgetop said:


> Would this bull go 330"?
> I would think it should be close.
> I'd have a hard time passing on it on most LE units.


Now that's a tricky bull to guess on. Really cool character. My gut feeling is a 320-330" bull but on my phone hard to say. The back end looks really good, so do the seconds. The first brows are really kinda short and the thirds looks very mismatched. The beams look short at first glance but the waves and curls they have make it almost impossible to guess accurately. The way he's holding his head will make the overall beam length look larger than it is too. No real gauge on the width, and mass in velvet is tricky. Beautiful bull, and another one that doesn't look like he's very old, 5-6 years maybe


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

ridgetop said:


> Would this bull go 330"?
> I would think it should be close.
> I'd have a hard time passing on it on most LE units.


I don't think he makes 330". As said, he is short on his front side. Really pretty bull, and I agree he is young - 6 years tops.

Man, on general unit, he'd be coming home with me...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think he goes at least 330, ridge. His beams and back end are fantastic. They are enough to make up for where it’s lacking on the front end.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

ridgetop said:


> I'm not sure his mains are all that short. The way they turn in is what I like most about this bull. He looks to have pretty good mass too.


I was totally being an internet troll. I love this bull!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Hey firtbag08, are post helpful at all or should I just move on?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Here's a bull similar to those previously posted. Who's pulling the trigger on this guy? Good bugle on this guy if you crank up the speakers 






Man I love bulls with big tops

-DallanC


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Dallen, I'd guess that bull in the 315-320" range. I'd shoot it but then again, I shoot any branch antlered bull I see.


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## Dirtbag08 (Apr 30, 2013)

ridgetop said:


> Hey firtbag08, are post helpful at all or should I just move on?


Ridge, you and others have turned this into the thread I was hoping it would become. I'm eating all this up, seeing how everyone looks at bulls in their own way has been enlightening. I appreciate all of this very much. I thought that bull had turned in main beams but couldn't be totally sure. Props to you for finding this bulls on general units (from what I understand). Great work. Mass is still something that I am trying to get a better gauge on. Besides seeing a lot of bulls and comparing, any other tips for determining if a bull has the mass or not?


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## Dirtbag08 (Apr 30, 2013)

Dallen, great bull IMO. 4-6s are pretty sweet for sure, great swords


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Dallan,

Awesome bull in the video. Looks just like the one on my wall that scores in the mid 360’s. Average fronts, weak thirds, awesome tops, good mains. I’d take him if he was uphill from the road.———-SS


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## Dirtbag08 (Apr 30, 2013)

Thought I would throw this up there (just to contribute to the fun). Wouldn't score well at all, just a great general bull imo. Thought it was interesting to see his extremely weak 2nds but decent 3rds (which seem to be the more commonly weak point of a bull).


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> Dallen, I'd guess that bull in the 315-320" range. I'd shoot it but then again, I shoot any branch antlered bull I see.


Thats the bull I took on the ML hunt a couple weeks later. After I got it, pictures were shared with neighbors and one of them went through his trail cameras and found these videos of him and gave me a copy. I later got even more stills of the bull crossing the highway in the middle of the night. Very nice of them to go through the trouble, I love seeing video of him alive and hearing that bugle again.

Here was the writeup on him. I've still never scored it, nor cared to.

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/160618-le-ml-bull-elk.html

-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Dallan, very cool that you were able to get that video of your bull. He's a beauty for sure.



Dirtbag08 said:


> Thought I would throw this up there (just to contribute to the fun). Wouldn't score well at all, just a great general bull imo. Thought it was interesting to see his extremely weak 2nds but decent 3rds (which seem to be the more commonly weak point of a bull).


One thing I have noticed is that with young bulls (generally under 5 yrs) their antlers will do a ton of weird stuff. Weak seconds, giant thirds, funky brows, twisted beams, kickers, etc. But then those same bulls after they get another year or three under them usually lose those quirks and have a more "balanced" set of antlers. That bull looks to me like he's a 4.5 yr old bull, or possibly even a really precocious 3.5 yr old that is a future BEAST. If he's a 5.5 yr old bull then he will probably end up as a very cool 310-330" six point bull at his prime---which to be clear is still a gorgeous bull anywhere, but especially on a general unit!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Here's another bull that probably goes a little over 300"


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

O*--
I would be shooting at that one !!!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> Here's another bull that probably goes a little over 300"


Just barely.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

This one looked ok... another 300” right? . Hoping I’ll run into him again this fall. Have another WY tag in my pocket this year!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Pretty bull!


-DallanC


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## Dirtbag08 (Apr 30, 2013)

Great bulls!


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