# Holding point?



## GSPonPoint (Sep 24, 2008)

I have a GSP pup that I'm working with. I'm very please with his natural drive and abilities. He has a strong desire to retrieve and does a good job of marking and using his nose to find the retrieving dummy. He's the most calm shorthair around the yard I've ever seen. All in all I'd say he's the perfect combination of a hunting dog.

He has very strong bird drive. I've had him on planted birds at least 30 times now. I set up the pigeons using remote launchers. I decided to use this method since wild birds are hard to come by. He seems to have a very good nose and is very stylish with a 12 o'clock tail when he points. The only concern I have is he won't hold point for more than 5-8 seconds tops. If he hears or sees me move after he's established point he busts in on the bird. If I don't move after the 5-8 seconds he goes hard for the bird. I always pop the launcher as soon as he makes his move. After all these repetitions he still won't hold a steady point especially if he hears or sees me move at all. I keep thinking he's going to get the idea that if he moves toward the bird that it will fly away before he can catch it but it doesn't seem to be sinking in. He has never caught a bird. I have allowed him to carry one around in his mouth but I've never allowed him to catch one. 

I haven't used a check cord much because I didn't want to hold him back in the field. I want him getting out and run hard, gain confidence and boldness and range out more.

Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## izzydog (Jan 18, 2008)

Looks like you are on the right track. As smart as they can be, sometimes instinct just is too strong for gsp's to ignore. A lot of wild birds that he can't catch is by far the best cure but I have found that to be pretty much impossible around here. I would suggest a check cord and an e-collar. Teach him what you expect from him with the cord and and use the collar as a reminder. A friend of mine has always said "you can teach whoa but you can't teach go!"


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Last year I would have told you... DOGTRA... But now I only have a TRITRONICS... So that is my final answer.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

whoa training and an e-collar will get your dog holding point in no time. not all pointing dogs will hold naturally. some are competitive and will move in if you do to beat you to the bird so you need to teach them to "whoa", which is the pointers version of "stay" taught to a retriever. 2-4 weeks with whoa and an e-collar and you can have him so steady you can eat lunch before he breaks.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Sprig Kennels said:


> whoa training and an e-collar will get your dog holding point in no time. not all pointing dogs will hold naturally. some are competitive and will move in if you do to beat you to the bird so you need to teach them to "whoa", which is the pointers version of "stay" taught to a retriever. 2-4 weeks with whoa and an e-collar and you can have him so steady you can eat lunch before he breaks.


+1
whoa will fix this.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

If Whoa fix's this what happens if the dog is say 500 yards out there and can't hear whoa? Or what if you can't see the dog? What happens when the dog bumps the first bird and chases, then takes the rest of the flock or covey out then also?

Do some checking on the net for the West Methods or Dave Walker Methods.... A whale of information on having a dog stand birds. The basis of these methods are geared around "Stop to Flush" a bird in the air means stop! Keep it between the dog and bird!


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

+1


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

TAK said:


> If Whoa fix's this what happens if the dog is say 500 yards out there and can't hear whoa? Or what if you can't see the dog? What happens when the dog bumps the first bird and chases, then takes the rest of the flock or covey out then also?
> 
> Do some checking on the net for the West Methods or Dave Walker Methods.... A whale of information on having a dog stand birds. The basis of these methods are geared around "Stop to Flush" a bird in the air means stop! Keep it between the dog and bird!


whoa training doesnt mean you give a command to whoa the dog in the field. it means you are teaching the dog to hold point when it comes up on a bird and the command you teach and use to hold point is whoa. the dog will hold point without needing to hear anything from the handler if trained the right way.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Sprig Kennels said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> > If Whoa fix's this what happens if the dog is say 500 yards out there and can't hear whoa? Or what if you can't see the dog? What happens when the dog bumps the first bird and chases, then takes the rest of the flock or covey out then also?
> ...


And if the bird don't play nice? or the dog bumped the bird? Whoa is fine to teach to get a dog to stop from running on a road or something but if you want a dog holding birds til the cows come home you might be better served by keeping the bird and the dog on the same level. I included a clip for ya. Now I have good money that many dogs just whoa broke are going to give chase just like in the vid. Some might stop if hit with the collar and yelled whoa at. But again what if your not around.....? Not saying a dog that is trained along the lines of the West Method would not forget some manners but I would feel a lot more confident to lay money that they see a bird in the air they stop.....


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

TAK said:


> And if the bird don't play nice? or the dog bumped the bird? Whoa is fine to teach to get a dog to stop from running on a road or something but if you want a dog holding birds til the cows come home you might be better served by keeping the bird and the dog on the same level. I included a clip for ya.


whoa has nothing to do with keeping a dog from running on a road or anything like that, whoa IS holding a point. it is a stay command once the dog is on point. it can be taken to a level to complete steadiness to wing and shot or just until the flush, depending on how much training the person wants to put into the dog. chasing a bird isnt really anything to do with whoa or what this post was originally started for. that is a totally separate part of the training and also comes from some experience. Once a dog is properly taught whoa it is rarely given or needed in the field. a truly finished dog wont break on a bird and will only move again once it is released from its position from the handler. somewhere i have a couple videos of this i will see if i can find and post.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

I think that chasing a bird has everything to do with the post. Is the dog not busting birds and chasing? Take the chase away and you get a dog holding point! using the West mthod you not only have taught the dog it can't bust birds, but also that it can't chase and when birds are bumped or flush wild the dog is standing up and standing still. I do understand what whoa is, but Y train whoa, then train stop to flush, then train this, then that? By keeping it between the bird and dog you keep a lot more style in the dog. I also think it makes a dog more savy on where it can point the birds, remember the last thing the dog wants to do is get that bird in the air! Remember bird in the air means no reward and for sure a correction.....

The vid I included shows what I have witness many times, including myself when I was focused on WHOA.



Sprig Kennels said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> > And if the bird don't play nice? or the dog bumped the bird? Whoa is fine to teach to get a dog to stop from running on a road or something but if you want a dog holding birds til the cows come home you might be better served by keeping the bird and the dog on the same level. I included a clip for ya.
> ...


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Whoa simply means whoa. Stop what you're doing and hold still. Period. No matter WHAT the situation. In regards to birds, it is only a reinforcement command to the "stop to flush". The bird is always a better trainer to make a dog steady than any verbal command could ever be. Once they learn that an airborne bird is an undesirable bird, the rest is easy. Stop to flush is the foundation to this. 

It goes like this, Pigeon launcher + Pigeon + Electricity/Check cord = Stop to flush.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

Tex is 100% correct, whoa is just whoa. it means to stay, hold still and dont move. But there is more to this command than just holding still if it is used correctly and integrated into the training with the birds. The original post for this thread was someone asking how to get their dog to hold point while they moved in on the bird and their dog would break when this happened. I am not sure how stopping to flush and chasing birds got into the mix but whoa training can stop a dog from chasing birds as well. Its all about how the command is used in the training. here is an example. http://sprigkennels.com/video-1/ This dog had the exact same problem as the original poster of this thread described was happening with his dog. This dog would hold point until i moved in on the bird and then he would break. I got as far as he was going to go on birds and launchers so i took him off birds for 3-4 weeks, whoa trained him and then e-collar whoa trained him and then put him back on birds and now he ended up steady to wing and shot and was a completely finished dog. He stopped chasing bird and was a fantastic dog to hunt with when he learned whoa. This is one of countless examples of dogs holding point because it was taught whoa. whoa is a stay command and what the original poster asked about was how to get his dog to stay on point and that can easily be accomplished with the whoa command, like the dog in the video.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Sprig Kennels said:


> Tex is 100% correct, whoa is just whoa. it means to stay, hold still and dont move. But there is more to this command than just holding still if it is used correctly and integrated into the training with the birds. I thought that is what I said? Whoa means stop? I understand that it can be used to have a dog stand a bird, but if the bird takes off? Then what. That is the very reason I say a dog should know what it needs to do if the bird wild flushes or is bumped to flight. The original post for this thread was someone asking how to get their dog to hold point while they moved in on the bird and their dog would break when this happened. yes I remember and from what is discribed it sounds to me that this dog is perfect for using the West methode. It makes the trainers job that much easier when a dog is gun ho like that. Fact is I would encourage the dog to bump the bird to get the training of a correction for the dog! The dog may take a chance of chasing the bird a few times, but in a short time you can't get that dog to move with a D9 Cat! And the training is kept between bird and dog.I am not sure how stopping to flush and chasing birds got into the mix but whoa training can stop a dog from chasing birds as well.because stop to flush is the basis to get a dog to do all possible to NOT get that bird in the air. Hence hold point! Its all about how the command is used in the training. here is an example. http://sprigkennels.com/video-1/ This dog had the exact same problem as the original poster of this thread described was happening with his dog. This dog would hold point until i moved in on the bird and then he would break. I got as far as he was going to go on birds and launchers so i took him off birds for 3-4 weeks, whoa trained him and then e-collar whoa trained him and then put him back on birds and now he ended up steady to wing and shot and was a completely finished dog. He stopped chasing bird and was a fantastic dog to hunt with when he learned whoa. This is one of countless examples of dogs holding point because it was taught whoa. whoa is a stay command and what the original poster asked about was how to get his dog to stay on point and that can easily be accomplished with the whoa command, like the dog in the video.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

the thing about chasing birds that is part of a pointing dogs instinct is eventually they stop the chase when they realize they can no longer catch the bird. that is where the point comes in also. i would never ever discourage a dog from chasing a bird in training, like to teach it to sit on a flush, because that is coming very very close to messing with the very basic instinct of why a pointer points in the first place, it cant catch the bird. Eventually, after enough birds and enough chases a light comes on in the dogs head when he realizes he cant catch the bird so he gives up the long chase as well as pull up on point and freezes on the bird playing a cat and mouse game seeing who will flinch (move) first. man has taken this stalking and freezing on a bird instinct and turned it into the point we have today with teaching the dog to hold point, hence whoa training. chasing a bird is part of the process and is important to develop the "point" and bring out that instinct. eventually, with training and seeing enough birds the chasing will diminish and sometimes go away all together and whoa training can and does also help a lot with this but only after the dog has had enough of "the chase". whoa training and CC is used only after the dog has seen tons of birds and is pointing on its own and the dog needs a little help to finish up and hold point.

the dog has to learn on its own not to chase birds, and they will if given the chance to work that out in their head. if a dog is chasing birds, it hasnt seen enough controlled birds in training with launchers because timing is everything when it comes to a pointing dog. it must think it is the one causing the flush, then it starts to back off and hold up on point naturally. some will eventually hold point on their own but some then need some help in the form of whoa training.

With this sit/stop to flush that was mentioned, i have a question about it since i dont follow that particular training method. how much e-collar correction is being used to get the dogs to sit to the flush?

The number one reason i see why dogs are not pointing or just bumping birds or struggling in some way is they just havent seen enough birds to bring out the natural instinct in the dog. every dog has a number in its head of how many birds it needs to see before it starts to point. I have seen some dogs point on the literal 4th bird and some the 100th bird but they all eventually get it and with enough birds comes experience on not to give the long chase afterwards, either after the point or on a "bump".


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

TAK said:


> If Whoa fix's this what happens if the dog is say 500 yards out there and can't hear whoa? Or what if you can't see the dog? What happens when the dog bumps the first bird and chases, then takes the rest of the flock or covey out then also?
> 
> Do some checking on the net for the West Methods or Dave Walker Methods.... A whale of information on having a dog stand birds. The basis of these methods are geared around "Stop to Flush" a bird in the air means stop! Keep it between the dog and bird!


Why would a pointing dog be 500 yards ahead of you? Pointing dogs should work a lot closer more like with in shooting range. A good trained dog will keep within shooting range as trained. With the use of commands or whistles.

I run my dog out to around 25 yards. They are not allowed beyond that range. At this type of range whoa works great. As the dog goes on point whoa command is applied and the dog will hold point until released. After a few of times the dog will figure this out and hold point on their own.

I don't put a lot of stock in videos. As dogs have personality all dog will train different. Figure out what works with your dog and focus on it until you get the results you want. 
Trainers are great for tricks and tips on how to start but the dog will show you how to train him.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

-BaHa!-


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

25 yards!!!! Haha. Since I quite smoking, I think I can smell a bird at 25 yards!!!!!


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## GSPonPoint (Sep 24, 2008)

I appreciate all the comments. This is actually the 3rd GSP I've trained. The 2 previous dogs never had an issue. They learned very quickly on there own to hold point. I did a little reinforcement but largely they figured it our on there own at a very young age.
My pup really doesn't give chase to the bird once it flies off. He watches it go but doesn't chase. This is also much different from my previous 2 trainings. Those pups both chased the bird, this guy, nope. He does have a nice intense point with good style. 

I have started trying another approach and it seems to be working. I just did the 2nd session using this method tonight and pup is already beginning to hold much longer. Here's what I'm doing. I go to a large field/mudflat area and I put pup on the CC and let him run around a bit. I have a pigeon with a weight tied to it's leg in my pouch. When pup is running around I pick up the end of the CC and then toss the bird on the ground. The bird will fly about 10 feet and land. As pup see the bird he freezes on point. I stand back at the end of the check cord hold pup steady. The bird will flutter and move around which keeps pup focus on it and intensely pointing. If pup tries to creep I'll tighten up the cord. I will then try to walk around pup toward the bird. If pup begins to creep I'll put tension on the CC, hold for 10 or so seconds and then try walking toward the bird again. Pup is now letting me walk past him but a soon as I pick up the bird he bolts toward me. So were making progress. I don't really say anything to pup at this point. I've also started the process of Woa training in yard work only.

I tried him out on a planted bird in a launcher. He did much better and actually let me walk past him.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

pelican said:


> 25 yards!!!! Haha. Since I quite smoking, I think I can smell a bird at 25 yards!!!!!


I'm a bad shot so i need them close :lol:


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Sprig Kennels said:


> the thing about chasing birds that is part of a pointing dogs instinct is eventually they stop the chase when they realize they can no longer catch the bird. This is not true. I have seen dogs that never give it up and require drastic measures that many times leaves and owner/handler with a dog that just never can be trusted!!!! that is where the point comes in also. i would never ever discourage a dog from chasing a bird in training, We are not talking about the same thing. The training I talk about is taking that chase away, but when I say I encourage it I have the dog bump the bird and then correct the dog for it. For instance. If a dog hits a bird, holds point, but starts to move in. I say nothing, I continue walking in and when the bird busts the dog is corrected. Ecollar or pinch collar. SAYING NOT ONE WORD!like to teach it to sit on a flush, because that is coming very very close to messing with the very basic instinct of why a pointer points in the first place, it cant catch the bird. Eventually, after enough birds and enough chases a light comes on in the dogs head when he realizes he cant catch the bird so he gives up the long chase as well as pull up on point and freezes on the bird playing a cat and mouse game seeing who will flinch (move) first. man has taken this stalking and freezing on a bird instinct and turned it into the point we have today with teaching the dog to hold point, hence whoa training.You have lost me here. I have Whoa broke many dogs before I gravitated towards the west method. At no time Chase has been part of training???? Fact is chasing puts you further away. dogs most times get independant and soon don't care if your there for the hunt. chasing a bird is part of the process and is important to develop the "point" and bring out that instinct. eventually, with training and seeing enough birds the chasing will diminish and sometimes go away all together and whoa training can and does also help a lot with this but only after the dog has had enough of "the chase". whoa training and CC is used only after the dog has seen tons of birds and is pointing on its own and the dog needs a little help to finish up and hold point.Again I am lost? What I read is your leting the dog that your trying to get to hold birds go ahead and chase and not just a few but many. To me that is causing a problem that you have to fix if you ever want a reliable pointing dog
> 
> the dog has to learn on its own not to chase birds, and they will if given the chance to work that out in their head. if a dog is chasing birds, it hasnt seen enough controlled birds in training with launchersJust not sure what to say here? I first began this by understanding what whoa is and now with all this added stuff I am really lost?????  because timing is everything when it comes to a pointing dog. it must think it is the one causing the flush, then it starts to back off and hold up on point naturally. some will eventually hold point on their own but some then need some help in the form of whoa training.
> 
> ...


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Hoopermat said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> > If Whoa fix's this what happens if the dog is say 500 yards out there and can't hear whoa? Or what if you can't see the dog? What happens when the dog bumps the first bird and chases, then takes the rest of the flock or covey out then also?
> ...


Don't laugh but I use to be you!!!! I started with brits and hunted them like springers! Hell I thought it was cool because at time my dogs would catch wild birds! That has all changed!!!!! I now love to see a dog go as big as... to the birds and point them! Distance is not important to me as some, but finding pointing and holding the birds is. So that said if the dog is 25 yards and points GREAT or 2500 yards GREAT! But also I think a dog that moves a bit more is finding more birds... Unless your walking a ditch I guess.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

WOW
I don't know if you read the first post but I think this guy needs help with bird hunting with pointers. 

Sorry didn't mean to hijack thread.


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

TAK is talking about hunting with pointers? You do understand what a pointer is right? Scrawny underfed looking, the best ones have short tails. Not a lab, springer, or german shepherd. I am guessing you don't understand the big words or terminology of things like " stop to flush" and what is ment when he says "keep it between the bird and dog". Since you have failed to offer one bit of help and keep your dog at 25 yards, this tells me YOU don't understand a thing about pointers hunting pointers and much less about training pointers. YOU just sit back and listen sweets, the adults are talking.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Hoopermat said:


> WOW
> I don't know if you read the first post but I think this guy needs help with bird hunting with pointers.
> 
> Sorry didn't mean to hijack thread.


Ya I understood that???? That is all that I hunt with, GSP's. Just tryin to help a fellow GSP man with a pretty darn good system in training a pointing dog to a higher level?


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

You also have a lab.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

pelican said:


> You also have a lab.


HAD... We lost Tabby in our house fire in Feb this year. Lost Toad also.

I do think that we might get another one. Tabby was a nice addition to the family as a pet. She was not much for bird hunting... But there was not a rock in two counties that she would not retrieve!


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Hoopermat said:


> Why would a pointing dog be 500 yards ahead of you? Pointing dogs should work a lot closer more like with in shooting range. A good trained dog will keep within shooting range as trained. With the use of commands or whistles.
> 
> I run my dog out to around 25 yards. They are not allowed beyond that range. At this type of range whoa works great. As the dog goes on point whoa command is applied and the dog will hold point until released. After a few of times the dog will figure this out and hold point on their own.
> 
> ...


 -_O- Lol...rookie mistake! Don't worry we all made those mistakes when we first started playing with birddogs. The more ground your pointer covers is ground that is hunted that you don't have to walk. A good birddog will adjust his hunting range according to the cover you are hunting. I shouldn't have to hack on a dog the whole hunt and keep him within 25 yards. _(O)_ If we are in thick pheasant cover he should hunt within 50 yards, in chukarland he better be 500-800 yards. A good dog knows where the birds are.

Silly comments make me laugh. :mrgreen:


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

Sorry I tthoyght only Toad was lost in the fire.Labs are nice but chessies are better. If your kids are still thinking waterfowl especially. I know of a couple up coming breedings in the next few months. I am sure I am going to get a DD but I still have been looking at Chesapeake


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

So your saying I'm doing something wrong. I let my dogs go out to around 25-50 yards in tall cover. Then they do a crossing pattern around 25-50 yards back and fourth. They do cover alot of ground. I have two GSP's and they work well together. 

Is this not a good way to run them? I have only been hunting them for three years. If this is not a good way to run them then I could use some help too.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Hoopermat said:


> So your saying I'm doing something wrong. I let my dogs go out to around 25-50 yards in tall cover. Then they do a crossing pattern around 25-50 yards back and fourth. They do cover alot of ground. I have two GSP's and they work well together.
> 
> Is this not a good way to run them? I have only been hunting them for three years. If this is not a good way to run them then I could use some help too.


First off, I was just giving you a hard time...don't take me too serious.

Second, if your dogs naturally hunt at that range so be it. However, if they want to get out further, especially in low cover such as chukarland, then let them run. A good birddog should know objectives and what to hunt for. The more country he covers is less you have to walk. if he covered a hill side and it produced no birds, chances are there were none and you didn't have to walk it to find out. If he does find birds out there 400 yards up the hill...bonus! He should hold point until you climb up and initiate the flush.

Most pointing breeds, especially English Pointers and GSPs like to run. Even if they are close working hunters (150 yards or less) this is very acceptable and effective in locating upland birds.

(btw, in thick pheasant cover, 25-50 yards can be a very effective range)


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

If that is the range you like to hunt at do it. We all have an opinion on what is good for hunting... Just like what type of dog.

Like said it really depends on what type bird and also cover. Right now I have a dog that is not all that big of a runner, but last week while chasing a few Grouse she was 316 yards away and was on point.... (Garmin) Now I was not at all happy with that because she was to hunt the ridge and not venture down into that nasty SOB'n hole! Me Phat arse walked down to her and found her only to have one **** bird! ONE that is just flat out wrong! I sure would have enjoyed the hike out with a limit or even more than one!

Now I am sure BWHTR will make fun of me and the 300 yard walk... It was thick stuff and I had the 28ga! And he knows it is babyed!



Hoopermat said:


> So your saying I'm doing something wrong. I let my dogs go out to around 25-50 yards in tall cover. Then they do a crossing pattern around 25-50 yards back and fourth. They do cover alot of ground. I have two GSP's and they work well together.
> 
> Is this not a good way to run them? I have only been hunting them for three years. If this is not a good way to run them then I could use some help too.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

I can say I liked Tabby for what she was... a yard dog. She would bark when someone came down the road, did not kill the cat that claimed us and did not chit in the house when she did get in. Really the kids liked her, I would have rather had another GSP but they wanted a lab to try duck hunting. Well I don't duck hunt and so therefor they don't either!!!!! Ducks eat poop!



pelican said:


> Sorry I tthoyght only Toad was lost in the fire.Labs are nice but chessies are better. If your kids are still thinking waterfowl especially. I know of a couple up coming breedings in the next few months. I am sure I am going to get a DD but I still have been looking at Chesapeake


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Lol...hey, I understand. 300 hundred yards is alot of yards...hell 100 yards from any four wheeler trail is a long ways for a fat kid!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

bwhntr said:


> Lol...hey, I understand. 300 hundred yards is alot of yards...hell 100 yards from any four wheeler trail is a long ways for a fat kid!


Where is the LIKE key!


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

I think its child abuse you don't take them waterfowl hunting.  its funny how things change. Years ago you and I was kicking sawdust at eachother on the whole retriever versus pointer thingy. Stubborn and never going to own a skinny dog, you didn't have a flea problem and didn't need a retriever.

Later I buy a pointy dog that you find for me, then you get married and developed a flea problem and get a lab.I move and finally like my skinny dog but have to give him away because my town sucks. you lose your flea trap and are most likely gonna get a new one, I am planning on getting a pointy dog when my chessie retrieves his last goose. Life is silly.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

At no time I said that a Lab was a hunting dog! Would you know I have a cat also! Really the cat ownes us and just showed up one day and just didn't leave. Now I don't expect I will take it hunting either, just as this Lab I will do nothing but let it eat and crap on my lawn, when I get lawn! However I do have two more GSP pups on the way!



pelican said:


> I think its child abuse you don't take them waterfowl hunting.  its funny how things change. Years ago you and I was kicking sawdust at eachother on the whole retriever versus pointer thingy. Stubborn and never going to own a skinny dog, you didn't have a flea problem and didn't need a retriever.
> 
> Later I buy a pointy dog that you find for me, then you get married and developed a flea problem and get a lab.I move and finally like my skinny dog but have to give him away because my town sucks. you lose your flea trap and are most likely gonna get a new one, I am planning on getting a pointy dog when my chessie retrieves his last goose. Life is silly.


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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