# powder differences?



## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Can someone in great detail explain the difference in powders to the new reloader. Example: Hodgdon 4350 vs IMR 4350?? As i understand it they are the same company. Is this like a FORD, LINCOLN, MERCURY kinda thing? Also in load data there are several powders to choose from for any particular load. Is there anyway to know what each one does in particular from another by reading the label? Just trying to expand my knowledge on the subject

Thanks

Cheddar


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

They are not the same powder. They are not the same company. They are both distributed by Hodgdon, but are manufactured in different factories to different specifications. They are similar in the same way that Ford, Chevy, and Dodge make pickup trucks. They have a similar burning rate, but they are not interchangeable. 
The differences between powders are too numerous to go into detail here. The best advise I can give you is to get a reloading manual (I have found that the Hornady has a ton of useful information), and read it. There is a lot more to each powder than what they can put on the label.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

The main difference in powders is the rate that they burn. For the most part powders have a similar amount of energy per given weight, but they release that energy and impart it to the bullet in different amounts of time (burn rate).
At your stage of reloading, do what Loke said...get a loading manual, read the loading manual and do what it says. No messing around with ideas you might come up with by reading about stuff like burn rates, etc.
Also, for your info, every powder has it's own number or name..NO two powders are the same..different name or number...different powder! Always use the exact powder that the loading manual calls for


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

sweet makes sense to me I was just curious I do have one load manual (Lee) that came with my press. I did read it, I just dont recall it going into much detail on powder composition etc. Just that as has been said, they are different. Fathers day is coming up. Maybe I will be lucky enough to receive another manual. I am really enjoying learning about all this and cant wait to actually do it. Soon enough:-o


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Reloading manuals are not going to go into that much detail on what the difference is. They usually have a chart in them with the burn rate of all the commercially available powders, but they also tell you not to use UVW powder in place of XYZ powder even if they are right next to each other in burn rates. 

If you do some Google searches you will find a lot of reading on the web about the burn rates of powders that you can read.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Critter said:


> Reloading manuals are not going to go into that much detail on what the difference is. They usually have a chart in them with the burn rate of all the commercially available powders, but they also tell you not to use UVW powder in place of XYZ powder even if they are right next to each other in burn rates.
> 
> If you do some Google searches you will find a lot of reading on the web about the burn rates of powders that you can read.[/QUOT
> 
> Awesome, thanks! I will do a little more reading. I was just told by a guy who seems to know his stuff that you want to get a load manual for the bullet you are lodaing. Example if you are loading a Nosler bullet then use the Nosler load data. Hornady bullet, Hornady manual etc. Makes sense to me


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

An even better idea is to get as many manuals as possible. While some of the info may be redundant, each manufacturer will have information specific to their components. The Hornady manual has a lot of general information in it. Then it gets into the data specific to their bullets.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't think that you need a component specific manual for each bullet or powder that you plan on using but if you are using a Hornady bullet now and want to switch to a Nosler of the same grain then to reduce your load by 10% and rework it back up. 

I also agree with Loke on getting different manuals. I have been reloading for over 35 years and have quite a assortment of different manuals that I refer to quite often.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

A nice thing about having many reloading manuals is that they often say which combination was the most accurate, had the highest velocity or was the most consistent. When you see a concurrence in multiple manuals it's a good starting point.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Ya been rootin around online. Nosler has data online for their bullets with the different powders and most accurate tested as Cooky said. Pretty cool. 
I go in for surgery tomorrow about noon. So for the next couple of weeks while I dont have much use of my left arm I am going to start my reloading. Any suggestions/tips on setting up my equipment? Layout, space etc. Thanks for all the input. 

A forum member is gracious enough to give me 15-20 Nosler Balistic 115 gr. bullets. I have some IMR4350 powder, CCI primers and some saved brass until I can find some good stuff brass to buy. :grin:


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

BPturkeys said:


> The main difference in powders is the rate that they burn. For the most part powders have a similar amount of energy per given weight, but they release that energy and impart it to the bullet in different amounts of time (burn rate).
> At your stage of reloading, do what Loke said...get a loading manual, read the loading manual and do what it says. No messing around with ideas you might come up with by reading about stuff like burn rates, etc.
> Also, for your info, every powder has it's own number or name..NO two powders are the same..different name or number...different powder! Always use the exact powder that the loading manual calls for


I read some where that there are 2 powders that are the exact same, Win 760 and H414 are the exact same powder in different containers. 
I believe it was in a Handloader Magazine. The author said that its not just the same type but the exact same as in came from the same pipe into the different containers.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Here is a chart of burn rates; this might illustrate just how much difference there is. http://www.reloadersnest.com/burnrates.asp


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Burn rate charts are interesting, but what you really need to study is the pressure curve as well. Very similar powders might have very close burn rates but have distinctly different pressure curves. 

Primers can tweak those pressure curves as well. Lots of variables, start low and work up.


-DallanC


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanks guys. Definately alot to learn and experiment with. What are the chances that a kind soul would like to come over and mentor an eager student in setting up the equiptment and the basics? My lovely wife is one hell of a baker and cook.......

Cheddar


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

mikevanwilder said:


> I read some where that there are 2 powders that are the exact same, Win 760 and H414 are the exact same powder in different containers.
> I believe it was in a Handloader Magazine. The author said that its not just the same type but the exact same as in came from the same pipe into the different containers.


Might be true...but why mess around with might be's? My point to a new reloader was, load by a manual and you most likely won't have any problem.

A couple other points I think every newbe should understand...start way back of top velocities and work up; understand and repeatedly check for any signs of high pressure (all rifles are different and a safe load for one may be high for another...know your rifle!); take your time, reload in an quiet undisturbed place away from any distractions; try and be as consistent as you can in all phases of the reloading process...consistency is THE KEY to good accurate and safe loads.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

BPturkeys said:


> Might be true...but why mess around with might be's? My point to a new reloader was, load by a manual and you most likely won't have any problem.
> 
> A couple other points I think every newbe should understand...start way back of top velocities and work up; understand and repeatedly check for any signs of high pressure (all rifles are different and a safe load for one may be high for another...know your rifle!); take your time, reload in an quiet undisturbed place away from any distractions; try and be as consistent as you can in all phases of the reloading process...consistency is THE KEY to good accurate and safe loads.


True! I would always go with the manuals. Its just too dangerous to make a mistake!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

mikevanwilder said:


> True! I would always go with the manuals. Its just too dangerous to make a mistake!


And just as a curiosity, what do you do when manuals conflict? Lets say Manual A shows a max of 30gr of powder XYZ, Manual B however shows a max of 33gr. Assuming similar barrel lengths, similar primers, similar bullets etc... which value do you use?

-DallanC


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

DallanC said:


> And just as a curiosity, what do you do when manuals conflict? Lets say Manual A shows a max of 30gr of powder XYZ, Manual B however shows a max of 33gr. Assuming similar barrel lengths, similar primers, similar bullets etc... which value do you use?
> 
> -DallanC


For the Novice here I would have to say start low and work your way up based off of what I have heard and read. Perhaps your particular rifle can only handle a max gr. of 28.5 of xyz? 
How did I do......?


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> Ya been rootin around online. Nosler has data online for their bullets with the different powders and most accurate tested as Cooky said. Pretty cool.
> 
> ...A forum member is gracious enough to give me 15-20 Nosler Balistic 115 gr. bullets. I have some IMR4350 powder, CCI primers and some saved brass until I can find some good stuff brass to buy. :grin:





DallanC said:


> *And just as a curiosity, what do you do when manuals conflict?* Lets say Manual A shows a max of 30gr of powder XYZ, Manual B however shows a max of 33gr. Assuming similar barrel lengths, similar primers, similar bullets etc... which value do you use?
> 
> -DallanC


What a reloading manual is - is just a guide saying "we tried this and got this with our stuff we used in our gun" it is not concrete science as we might think.
The smartest thing we can do with conflicting data - which most is - is to check as many sources as possible and average out that particular load in order to create a realistic Max goal for ourselves.

You eliminate the highs and the lows and anomalies that way and get the broad picture. Of course you also need to look at the components and test gun they used as sometimes that gives a clue.

Therefore you need as many sources or manuals as possible, or access to them.

Along with this, the use of a chronograph gives us a better handle on what is going on with our load work-up more than any other method. Basically we want to duplicate the _averaged out_ velocity and not exceed it by any reasonable margin. For example, in .223 Rem Hornady 55-gr H-335 data for Max is way low comparatively. If you average it out with 4 or 5 other sources you get a better picture of what you can try for.

Nonetheless, if you load to the _velocity_ Hornady lists, even though you may use more (or possibly less) powder - perhaps as much powder as Speer used (as was my experience here), you will in all likelihood still be safe because pressure=velocity. If you didn't exceed Hornady's velocity in this case (given similar barrel lengths) then it is most unlikely you exceeded the pressure Hornady _and Speer_ got (albeit Hornady's from a lesser powder charge in this instance) if you exceed that velocity by 100 fps, them your pressure is too high. You don't just "happen" to have a "fast" barrel.

You can also chronograph factory ammo and as long as you use powder of the proper burning rate as recommended by the loading manuals, then if your handloads don't exceed that velocity by any major amount, your pressure is in line.

Other pressure indicating methods can be unreliable and won't show signs until excessive pressure has already been reached. With a chronograph (used in conjunction with those other signs) you should never reach over-pressure in most cases.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Good info, thats pretty much what I do as well. I would highly recommend to Cheddar to get a cronograph as soon as he can afford it. And try not to get caught up in chasing max velocity haha, its a waste of money. Accuracy > speed... I've had some ridiculously fast 140grn Barnes XLC loads out of my 7STW... scary fast... but they might as well be loaded backwards for all of the accuracy they had.

Go for accuracy first, crono the load to get the actual speed, then use ballistics software to compute the trajectory so you know how to sight in, your drop over distance etc etc.


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I personally think that getting a chronograph will depend on how much reloading he plans on doing. Reloaders loaded rifle and pistol rounds for quite a lot of years before they became affordable to the point that the common person could purchase one. Uaually all they do is make you mad when you find out that the manuals and box flaps have been wrong all these years.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I find them to be highly useful. For example I personally never want any rifle's load to be more than 3" above my line of sight. Being able to measure the velocity, and knowing the bullets BC, I can quickly compute the precise sight in range for that round. I can then compute any other adjustments if I care about for in field use (ie: drop at 300, 350, 400, 450 yards etc).

That's just me though, I like the computation side of this equation... and developed ballistic software over the years to measure it. 

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I won't downplay the usefulness of a chronograph but after you have your loads built for a rifle it will very seldom be used. The last time that I used mine was 3 years ago when I was building up some loads for my .340 Weatherby but other than that I am set on just about all my loads for both my rifles and pistols. I will drag it out again this summer to check out some loads for my muzzle loaders and will check some factory loads for a .300 Savage that I am going to resurrect this year for the deer hunt. 

I have also use it like you to be able to know what that bullet is going to do down range but unless you are changing things around all the time I would put it on a secondary list for down the road purchase. But then I also don't have a electronic powder measure and I still load on a single stage press. I did however purchase a electronic scale but 90% of the time the old balance beam scale is just as fast.


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

DallanC said:


> That's just me though, I like the computation side of this equation... and developed ballistic software over the years to measure it.
> 
> -DallanC


I like your software DallanC. I have been using it for several years. Been very handy. Thank you!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Firehawk said:


> I like your software DallanC. I have been using it for several years. Been very handy. Thank you!


Thank you, I'm glad you find it useful 

-DallanC


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Wow so much to learn! Which for me is exciting. I would love to make some new friends with this hobby. I really appreciate all of everyone's input. DallanC, is your offer still on the table from a few months ago?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> DallanC, is your offer still on the table from a few months ago?


My work has us on mandatory overtime 6 days a week... I can barely remember what I did yesterday let alone a few months ago.

-DallanC


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

DallanC said:


> My work has us on mandatory overtime 6 days a week... I can barely remember what I did yesterday let alone a few months ago.
> 
> -DallanC


oops.........my bad. Another forum member had presented an offer a little while go whos handle starts with a "D". Sorry :? chalk it up to lack of sleep and meds hee hee:grin: I appreciate your insight though.

Cheddar


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

mikevanwilder said:


> I read some where that there are 2 powders that are the exact same, Win 760 and H414 are the exact same powder in different containers.
> I believe it was in a Handloader Magazine. The author said that its not just the same type but the exact same as in came from the same pipe into the different containers.


That is correct. The same Olin powder is sold as both Winchester and Hodgdon in several cases with only lot variations:

Win 231 = HP-38

Win 296 = H-110

Win 760= H-414

IMR and Hodgdon 4895 are also basically interchangeable.

However the 4350s and 4831s differ just enough from each other despite the name and should be treated as separate powders. They are not the same.
In fact there is some advantage to using the Hodgdon counterpart of 4350 and 4831: they are both "Extreme" temperature insensitive powders anymore, and the H-4831 SC is a "short cut" version that meters better.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Frisco Pete said:


> That is correct. The same Olin powder is sold as both Winchester and Hodgdon in several cases with only lot variations:
> 
> Win 231 = HP-38
> 
> ...


Interesting. Thats good for me as the only powder i have thus far is IMR 4350 which was the best/most accurate tested on a few of Noslers bullets and is also in the modern reloading book i have for use with the 25-06


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> oops.........my bad. Another forum member had presented an offer a little while go whos handle starts with a "D". Sorry :? chalk it up to lack of sleep and meds hee hee:grin: I appreciate your insight though.
> 
> Cheddar


On second thought, perhaps I remember you demanding I allow you to bestow all of your rifle reloading and marksmanship skills upon me. Seems like you were very insistent..........:angel:

Cheddar


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Get me out of the next month's worth of over time and its a deal. 

-DallanC


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

well I would do my best but I am just not too intimidating right now as it were


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