# Boycott SFW Outdoor Expo Convention?



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Lots of people are asking in other threads "what can we do?" about the current WB decision. Seems one major thing would be to boycott the convention and possibly petition outside it. It would definitely make the news and bring to light some of the issues people are so concerned about.


-DallanC


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I've stayted out of previous expo conversations because I enjoy going to the things. I'm on board with you now, Dallan. The place to protest isn't the convention, though. This all starts up on the hill with Governor Herbert. He signed off on the bill that closed access to OUR rivers and streams. He is the only person in the state who has the power now to remove members from the wildlife board.


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## RECURVE (Dec 1, 2010)

As I stated in my very first post my boycott was a personal decision that started a long time ago. I'm in.


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## IDHunter (Dec 17, 2007)

I already did last year. It didn't work! If you think they care what you think, you're dreaming. There's way too much money and power involved. This is no different than the Federal government.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm thinking hard about that. I'm part of an effort to stage the first state National Archery in the Schools Program tournament that's going to take place at the expo. I've got 60 kids who want to compete. Poses an ethical conundrum for me, sure. SFW doesn't donate a cent to my kids, (no money in it for them), but MDF is a major contributor.


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## stillhuntin (Feb 14, 2008)

Finnegan,
While MDF is a major contributor that contribution was generated by NWTF (another sponser; last I heard). I too am having some very serious conversations with myself. I spend lots of time, money and effort to support lots of what's good but damned if I ain't about ready to go fishin' and fugitaboutit. And, thanks for your VERY successful and dedicated efforts with the NASP program....WELL DONE SIR!!!


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## Elkster (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm with you boys! Piss on Don Peay, SFW, and the MDF!


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## huntnfool (Sep 16, 2007)

No I haven't gone but I probable will go this year. I'm tired of all this whining, selfserving boo hoo attitude. Hunting is a privlage not a right. The days of hunting where ever and whenever you want are over and rightfully so. Get over it and move on to what is really important... getting the deer herds back and healthy then more opportunity will follow.


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## neverdrawn (Jan 3, 2009)

huntnfool, are you totally oblivious to what has been going on here... The changes have no biological benefits geared toward improving the health of the herd. If your username indicates what I believe it does I'm certain you love the changes. More money for your organization and a move toward making hunting more a business and a pass time for the rich than a sporting adventure. What's next, high fence hunting accross the board for the fat lazy rich sons of a b's who don't care to hunt, just want to kill?


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## hockey (Nov 7, 2007)

This is good news! Now I will have a better chance of drawing a tag


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## deerlove (Oct 20, 2010)

I dont know how or why the state would give 200 tags away with nothing in return. I cant believe that the $ generated will NOT go to wildlife. DWR=Fools


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

im not a gambling kind of guy. I will take the money I would have thrown into SFW wallet and apply it to points in another state where I will be guaranteed a tag some day. 

screw SFW and their once in a life time 100% success shoots.


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## tonyabbott (Dec 4, 2010)

Guys

I did not attend the Expo last year and I don't plan on it this year either. I helped create the expo and the tags but they were created under a different understanding then they are running and reporting on them now. There is a way to set things straight and I promise I am working on it.

Thanks for the warm welcome.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

tonyabbott said:


> Guys
> 
> I did not attend the Expo last year and I don't plan on it this year either. I helped create the expo and the tags but they were created under a different understanding then they are running and reporting on them now. There is a way to set things straight and I promise I am working on it.
> 
> Thanks for the warm welcome.


Tony, if you can set things straight that would be great. It will be a up hill battle and I for one would be willing to help you climb that hill.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

We should protest, and we should enlighten the folks going to the expo of the travesty that is the wildlife board and the injustice the SFW seems to rub in our faces even in front of everybody at the most recent meeting when they hand a check to the board and seem to laugh about it. We should hand out fliers outlining the new proposal and what it entails, and places where they can get more info on how it concerns the future of hunting in Utah.

I would be willing to bet that most of the hunting public has no idea what just happened to the future of hunting in Utah, but if they knew they would be protesting as well.

We need to get the word out and put a stop to this madness. If people think that loosing 13,000 tags is going to increase opportunity their math stinks. You will never see those tags again. Retailers, outdoor shops ,and hunting towns should be crying fowl as well. There is going to be a lot of lost revenue on this. 

Nothing good will come of the new deer hunting proposal.


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## 71nova (Jan 9, 2008)

You guys are wrong, less tags means less hunters. To most of us that means we'll have to take our stupid four wheelers out cruising some other weekend!! the ones who actually hunt, on public land, where it is very hard to tag or even see a deer most years this is great. There are way too many hunters in the field. Every year I see about one hundred hunters and maybe five dead deer. You know now that I think about it those are great odds, we should increase the number of tags to two million, that would generate alot of money and we could all enjoy sharing campfires and beers with ALL the people we know. Lets go protest, byob of course!


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## LoneClarity (Nov 20, 2010)

Tony,
You will fit right in on this forum! Welcome.


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## 71nova (Jan 9, 2008)

ok sorry, I juat read the quit cryin thread and although I am not going to cry with you guys I can see a small point developing within the neighboring states. that being said, Nevada is th driest state in the union, Utah is second but Im guessing it's not close. colorado Has about twenty miles of jsut destroyed red dead pines west of denver as a result of beetle kill, I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. Sure changing the hunting thing isn't going to solve alll the problems over night, but it will help. with the changing of dot s highway system to help prevent road kill. Poacher crackdowns(I am convinced this is a bigger factor than anyone realizes). And controlled burns to help create more wintering grounds the deer herd should turn around. There are other neighboring states where I know of several people, and hear of several people who see or kill an animal quite often, These states also have the "micro-managed" smaller areas. I like it better, I can settle on a small area to hunt and not worry about the deer 150 miles away that I'm not there to shoot.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

71nova said:


> ok sorry, I juat read the quit cryin thread and although I am not going to cry with you guys I can see a small point developing within the neighboring states. that being said, Nevada is th driest state in the union, Utah is second but Im guessing it's not close. colorado Has about twenty miles of jsut destroyed red dead pines west of denver as a result of beetle kill, I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. EVERY mule deer state has habitat issues, so that is a wash. Sure changing the hunting thing isn't going to solve alll the problems over night, but it will help. HOW? Can you, or ANYONE that thinks reducing BUCK permits will 'help' offer up *ONE* example of when/where this has EVER happened? with the changing of dot s highway system to help prevent road kill. Poacher crackdowns(I am convinced this is a bigger factor than anyone realizes). And controlled burns to help create more wintering grounds the deer herd should turn around. There are other neighboring states where I know of several people, and hear of several people who see or kill an animal quite often, These states also have the "micro-managed" smaller areas. Utah has been micro-managing units for YEARS. I like it better, I can settle on a small area to hunt and not worry about the deer 150 miles away that I'm not there to shoot. Are you saying you 'need' the Wildlife Board to tell you where to hunt because you are not capable of narrowing your hunting area down on your own? :?


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

71nova said:


> You guys are wrong, less tags means less hunters. To most of us that means we'll have to take our stupid four wheelers out cruising some other weekend!! the ones who actually hunt, on public land, where it is very hard to tag or even see a deer most years this is great. There are way too many hunters in the field. Every year I see about one hundred hunters and maybe five dead deer. You know now that I think about it those are great odds, we should increase the number of tags to two million, that would generate alot of money and we could all enjoy sharing campfires and beers with ALL the people we know. Lets go protest, byob of course!


You say every year! Well get used to hunting a lot less than that. 29 sub units means you have to pick a area much smaller than you would normally hunt. People in the way. Go find a new canyon. Not seeing any deer in your area. So much for moving around. Your stuck. Your options just got more limited.

Now you just put 13,000 hunters that would otherwise be hunting in their part of the state more dispersed through out the state. Maybe even in your choice of unit. Your draw odds just got a lot worse. Now you will see areas such as the southern bombarded with hunters that would otherwise probably hunt in the northeast. So on and so on. Pick your poison. What do you think it will do to those units.

Growing more bucks does not create a healthy deer herd, but quite to the contrary. It is detrimental to herd health.

Another point to this is the buck to doe ratios. If your unit falls under objective they cut the tags. Oops! More people out putting in for your area again. How far are you going to let them take it. You'll be looking at the mess we now call LE elk hunting. Where you are looking at 15 to 16 or more years to draw a tag for a good area to hunt. I hope you are happy with that potential. Maybe you just don't see that coming. Keep the blinders on people. It's not getting better. It just got worse. :!:


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## huntnfool (Sep 16, 2007)

Utah has been micro-managing the deer herds but not the hunters. You have a hard time micro-managing a herd when you can't control the harvest of the surplus of that individual herd. Utah has not been doing that until now.
real basic Example;
You give 20,000 tags for the southern region. You have a surplus of 400 on the monroe how can you control that no more that the 400 are taken, when you have the possibility of 20,000 hunters migrating to that sub-unit? You have to control the hunters on every sub-unit to control the harvest on that sub-unit.
Increasing the buck to doe ratio has little biolgical application BUT Micro-management does!!!!!!! Not many people with common sense or any biolgical knowledge can argue this.

Oh by the way neverdrawn I was huntnfool way before Garter started his bussiness. And Utah has had high fenced hunt for years now


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## fin little (Aug 26, 2010)

huntenfool,makes perfect sense to me. Im sure though were about to have explained to both of us why your wrong.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

> Increasing the buck to doe ratio has little biolgical application BUT Micro-management does!!!!!!!


So, explain to us what the net result is from micro-managing buck harvest, other than higher buck to doe ratios.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

71nova said:


> There are way too many hunters in the field. Every year I see about one hundred hunters and maybe five dead deer.


Mischaracterizations, half truths, exaggeration, and fear mongering have gotten us to this point. Take your above quote.

"Way too many hunters in the field". Based on whose standards? There used to be double the deer hunters in Utah.

So you see 5 kills per 100 hunters. First I suspect even by your observations that this is a big exaggeration and second it's false. We know the success rate for deer in Utah is right around 33%, not 5%. That's an exaggeration by almost 7 fold.

Even though you didn't say this directly you are perpetuation fear mongering by sending the message we are somehow sending legions of hunters to kill all the deer and there are nearly none left. If we are going to complain and petition for change then fine, but let's be honest about things and paint the real picture, not a distorted view that is 7 times inaccurate. This sort of thing has run rampant and a lot of people are simply feeding off it like a fast spreading cancer.

If the situation is really as bad as you say then how is it that success rates are not dropping and staying right around 33%? As you correctly state there are a bunch of people that ride ATV's only on the hunt so that means the success rate for those that actully get off them and hunt is higher than 33%.


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## 71nova (Jan 9, 2008)

Case in point, and probably the reason for my agreeing to this issue. My dad took me hunting every year on the oak creek south unit, as I was growing up. The canyon/area of the unit we hunted was very dry and if there was pressure besides us they quickly left. Every year one or two or more hunters in our party would take game. Just about the exact time I was old enough to start hunting they turned it into a draw only unit. Has been ever since. FOR WHAT REASON? the only change I see now is that I can't hunt there unless I want to do it during poaching season(My family lived in this area for years and used to kill more than ten deer a year). I saw a nice four point on the antlerless elk hunt that looked exactly like a three pointer my dad shot there the year before they pushed the regulars out. 

This is the way we are going with the whole state, I missed my bow tag this year cause I opted to wait and buy over the counter, well they all drew out... Now I have like three points for a bow tag. If this isn't the answer, there has to be a better one, the one we had didn't work. Instead of getting all worked up and protesting you should come up with a good plan, presentation, and something that shows immediate change! I say this is not possible. Maybe you know better. Maybe it's not all about money(the rangers seem to be very concerned about the actual nature of it all and not the hunting part). If you can appeal to them and the hunters you have a two thirds majority. If that doesn't work, show evidence of the other sides "corruption" and get the people to follow you. Everyone has thier own agenda.

The DWR said directly on thier website that putting in this amount of units will allow the deer herd to be managed more closely. That says to me they haven't been micro managing it to this point. 

The 5 bucks to 100 hunters I have seen is very real. It must depend on what day you are on what unit. I'm sure that over the course of the deer hunt as a whole you will have better success. Kamas on opening day is about two hundred hunters to three deer(tiny four points). The next day half the hunters leave, and all the deer.

The unit between fountain green and levan is probably 5 two pinters to every fifty hunters. 

I usually can't afford to take off a whole week to hunt, so this is what I see. but I can go out on the bow hunt and see 3-4 bucks myself and maybe one other guy that has actually gotten one.


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## 71nova (Jan 9, 2008)

by the way I can't go out my front door without stepping on an elk, maybe they should manage the deer in the same way. Just a thought, I already know you hate it though.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

71nova said:


> by the way I can't go out my front door without stepping on an elk, maybe they should manage the deer in the same way. Just a thought, I already know you hate it though.


How **** tall are you? :roll:


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> 71nova said:
> 
> 
> > by the way I can't go out my front door without stepping on an elk, maybe they should manage the deer in the same way. Just a thought, I already know you hate it though.
> ...


LMAO

Dang Pro...now that was funny! Sorry, couldn't resist


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

:O•-:


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

71nova said:


> The unit between fountain green and levan is probably 5 two pinters to every fifty hunters.


 :roll: Nonsense.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Are pinters bigger than quarts, or are they smaller? I can't keep track.......


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## 71nova (Jan 9, 2008)

sorry, guys I will not post in the big game section anymore. I just felt like maybe my opinion could change your minds. I live on the side of a steep hill, most times when I go out back I just step directly onto the elk, I'm only 5' 3". pinters are smaller than quarts, they dont' get warm before your done.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Don't go anywhere 71nova. I am just ribbing you a bit. I only do that to people that I think can handle it.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

How many WB members will "draw" sheep tags at the convention this year?


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

bugchuker said:


> How many WB members will "draw" sheep tags at the convention this year?


All of them that want them! :roll:


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

71nova said:


> sorry, guys I will not post in the big game section anymore. I just felt like maybe my opinion could change your minds. I live on the side of a steep hill, most times when I go out back I just step directly onto the elk, I'm only 5' 3". pinters are smaller than quarts, they dont' get warm before your done.


No sense in moving on 71nova, that's the last thing we need is another hunter NOT voicing his oppinion. We can all agree to disagree at times, but keeping quiet on issues that are important to you solves nothing. Stick around


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## LoneClarity (Nov 20, 2010)

I hope my odds are better this year! Like 900 to 1 instead of 1200 to 1.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> I'm part of an effort to stage the first state National Archery in the Schools Program tournament that's going to take place at the expo.


I was just notified by email today that the tournament isn't going to happen after all. No explanation given. Really sucks that these kids aren't welcome at the expo. They've been really excited and promised shirts, prizes and a great experience.

They've been showing up in the wee hours of the morning every day before school to practice and they've worked hard to meet the academic standards I require for participation in the meantime. A couple kids were even waving transcripts at me earlier today, proud to have qualified. (Today was the end of the school term.) Of course, it won't be SFW or MDF or the Salt Palace or even the DWR that will be telling them. My name will be Dirt when I break the news...and all the more so when they ask why and all I've got to tell them is "I don't know."

My own fault, I guess - I should have seen it coming.

Anyway...don't suppose anybody knows where I can find a free indoor venue so I can pull this off on my own?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Sorry to hear that Finn. I'll ask around. How much space do you need?


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## c3hammer (Nov 1, 2009)

Finn, give me a shout. I'll see if we can't find you a spot to hold it.

cheers,
Pete
c3 hammer at hot mail dot com


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> im not a gambling kind of guy. I will take the money I would have thrown into SFW wallet and apply it to points in another state where I will be guaranteed a tag some day.
> 
> screw SFW and their once in a life time 100% success shoots.


These are the wisest words spoken on this thread! I'm so glad that most folks are willing to throw their money away at the expo instead of doing a little research and finding that there are so many opportunities still out there in the west.------SS


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> Sorry to hear that Finn. I'll ask around. How much space do you need?


That's the problem - it requires a big space. I'm guessing about 150 kids, so with coaches, judges and audience, it needs to be big enough for 500 people and still have 20 yards of clear space for the range. With that size crowd, it also needs event insurance.



c3hammer said:


> Finn, give me a shout. I'll see if we can't find you a spot to hold it.


Thanks, Pete.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

bugchuker said:


> How many WB members will "draw" sheep tags at the convention this year?


That right there is a good point. Seems like Dons right hand man drew a sheep tag last year, and wasn't it a limited entry elk the year before? That dude has some SERIOUS luck..



> swbuckmaster wrote:
> im not a gambling kind of guy. I will take the money I would have thrown into SFW wallet and apply it to points in another state where I will be guaranteed a tag some day.
> 
> screw SFW and their once in a life time 100% success shoots.
> ...


hey.. keep it on the DL would you? I should be drawing out a dandy of a wyoming tag this year, and the last thing i need is for all the utah applicants to flood the system!


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I believe he drew an antelope tag the prior year.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I remember talking to a certain "consultant" for SFW that showed up to to wildlife meeting a few years back, one of the first years that they opened the lone peak hunt. He had just killed a B & C ram off of that unit, which only had a few tags. Weird how he ended up with a permit for a unit that was nearly impossible to draw, even with max points.

Along those lines, is anyone else rubbed wrong by the amount of attention and dollars spent on sheep?


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

either way, the odds of ANYONE drawing multiple years in a row given the odds are astronomical, and maybe more than just coincidence.... just speculating and observing that SFW board members drawing out, much less being able to participate in the drawing raises more than a little suspicion regarding conflict of interest...



> I remember talking to a certain "consultant" for SFW that showed up to to wildlife meeting a few years back, one of the first years that they opened the lone peak hunt. He had just killed a B & C ram off of that unit, which only had a few tags. Weird how he ended up with a permit for a unit that was nearly impossible to draw, even with max points.


I'd be real curious to know what units Don Peay hunted the last 5 years, whether it be here in Utah or one of the other states that SFW has chapters and probably "random drawing" tags for.

I think everyone kind of suspects that at least for a portion of the tags that there's a little bit of the 'ol boy network going on. I'd actually have more respect for SFW if they were point blank honest and said that they reserve 10% of the hunts for their board members and administrative staff than I am on most years reading the "random winners" list and comparing to the board member listing inside the old issues I used to get from SFW before I withdrew membership...


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Tree, I don't care for men who love sheep. You can throw turkey lovers in that statement too.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Tree, I don't care for men who love sheep. You can throw turkey lovers in that statement too.


You're projecting to take attention off of your speculated sheep fetish. I can see right through you.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I hate the competition!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Got another venue for my kids! Waiting to hear if the DWR will support it.

Maybe the answer isn't a boycott, but an alternative. Sure, we wouldn't have tags. But the expo doesn't really have tags, either, if you look at the odds. Better odds at the Wendover slots and if you win enough, you're guaranteed a tag from the expo. I've witnessed that myself.

Look at the sponsors...pretty weak for a shindig like the expo. Then think about who isn't sponsoring.

I see Ted Nugent is one of the expo attractions. So I'm wondering how Ted would feel about supporting an expo that doesn't welcome youth archers. I'm sure he doesn't know. Yet.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Nice finn. Tony Abbott was just talking about the expo ousting the youth on his show. Good pub for the youth, bad pub for the expo. 

It seems like the expo has a bad wrap the last few years.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

That sucks for the youth.


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

Finn,
When and where is the new venue?
What are some things that you need help with?


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## dryflyelk (Aug 24, 2009)

A little perspective on the odds of the expo, using last year's numbers, simplified based on what we've been given by SFW. Let's take the example of brothers Joe and Ted.

Joe decides to put in for all the deer and all the elk tags. He spends $290, and his odds of drawing elk are 1/107, and deer is 1/219. Combined odds are 1/143 that he'll draw one of those tags. 

Ted decides to take his money and go to Wendover. He likes to gamble, so he uses his $290 and puts it all on a single number on the roulette table. The odds of him hitting that number are 1/38 and his payout would be 35/1. If it hits, he'd make $10,150.

Ted's odds of winning are 3.7 times as good as Joe's chances. If he wins, he plans on buying whatever deer or elk tag he wants at a banquet. There would be a couple he couldn't afford, but he's ok with that. He may even use the extra money to buy a tag for him and his brother. 

Which brother would you rather be?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Pretty clever dryflyelk, I like the way you think.


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## Broadside_Shot (Feb 22, 2010)

Not to mentioned that Joe got lucky and with those odds drew two expo tags in the same year and has a really hard time choosing which one he will dedicate more time too :shock:


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

Broadside_Shot said:


> Not to mentioned that Joe got lucky and with those odds drew two expo tags in the same year and has a really hard time choosing which one he will dedicate more time too :shock:


Joe must work for SFW, or know Don Peay.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

mtnrunner260 said:


> Finn,
> When and where is the new venue?
> What are some things that you need help with?


New venue is:

Jefferson Jr. High
5850 South 5600 West
Kearns, UT
Sat. Feb. 5
11:00 am - 3:00 pm

We need scorers. It's very simple to do with Olympic targets. The more help we have, the quicker we can cycle the kids through the rounds. Those available to help should come at 10:30 for a quick orientation. Its time well spent and you'll enjoy the experience.


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