# Mountain Lion Numbers in Utah



## Mshunter

I have heard from one person that mountain lion numbers may be the lowest in years in Utah. Does anyone else have any info on mtn lion numbers and how good the hunting is right now?


----------



## Kevin D

Mshunter said:


> I have heard from one person that mountain lion numbers may be the lowest in years in Utah. Does anyone else have any info on mtn lion numbers and how good the hunting is right now?


That is what the hard numbers suggest. The DWR has been collecting data for decades including hunter surveys, average age of animals harvested, and number of lions treed per hunter day. I'm sure there are guys that are going to get on here and tell you about all the lions out there, but you can bet they are not houndsmen that go looking for cougar week after week. By every measure in the DWR statistics, lion populations have been in decline.


----------



## goofy elk

I've been chasing lions for over 20 years now...

There is ABSOLUTLY no doubt,,,,LOWEST lion population right now I've seen in my life..

As Kevin has pointed out,,,Every lion harvested must be checked in,,Average age has
dropped BELOW 2.5 years old,,,,,,,Basically they have been killing the kittens off with
harvest objective hunting.....

Right now there are 5 units that ALL 5 together, have ZERO lion checked in since opening 11/27/2010..
Prime time snow conditions,,,,,,,The rest of the H/O units combine, only 27 cats harvested..
2010/11 will be yet another all time low for Success rates, pursuit lion treed, and depredation..
The stats don't lie!!

Cougar pursuit,,,,,There are a number of units ZERO cats have been treed in the past
few years............

Livestock depredation has dropped to a 15 year low..

Its not just the hounds men saying LOW number of CATS,,,,Its all the statistics too..


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

BS! They're just getting smarter. If you're a cat and you've been run "for fun" a time or two, you're not going to let it happen again any time soon. Kill off the stupid kittens and all your left with are the old smart ones. The big smart deer killers. I think there are PLENTY of cats. I see them almost every year in the field one year I saw three in two weeks. Normally I would take a houndsmans word for it but not this time. You guys are proclaiming low numbers, but the stats mean nothing to me when there are so few deer and so many sightings of big, healthy cats. I don't buy it.


----------



## goofy elk

TEX ,,Ya know I love YA  

But the cats getting smarter is pure BS..

I saw cats two decades ago that would avoid snowmobile tracks and
roads.................Their all dead.

And lions that would try and stay at higher elevations,,,,,,,,
This works till they get hungry...Very seldom ,IF EVER, dose a lion
stay in very deep snow with no deer or elk,,,,,"food supply"....

THE ONLY exception could be a lion living on Billie goats and hares in
remote , high cliff areas. Or moose somtimes, But even this is unusual.

A tom lion , once kidded off mom, will travel GREAT distances..
In some cases 1000s of miles,,,,,,many mountain ranges..

Right now with snow conditions the way they are , one can take a spotting
scope and see virtually EVERY track on the mountain.........
Look half way up Timp and see how many fresh tracks are up high right now??

Right now ,at least 90% of the lion population is a short distance from 
deer and elk herds,,,And 90% of the herds are on the bottom 1/3 of the mountain.
Go figure


----------



## Airborne

I am not a houndsman but last year I was "lucky" and drew a coveted Wasatch LE cat tag. I hunted for 24 days, not only ran roads with snow mobiles and ATVs, but I hiked a ton and I was hunting with some very experienced houndsmen who know their stuff. We managed to tree 2 cats, both were small yearlings. I did not want to kill a house cat so I passed. From talking with these guys, if I would have had that tag ten years ago I could have had my pick of good cats on any given weekend with a little snow. Before this hunt I thought there were a lot of cats because I had seen some sign before and have seen 6 in the wild over the last 10 years. Since that time I have changed my tune--yes there are cats but they are few and far between. Tex--you should hook up with a houndsman if you know where all the cats are hiding--I am sure their clients would appreciate it. My houndsmen buddies have called out a bunch of internet pros and for some reason they never take up the offer to show where all the cats are hiding--strange


----------



## muleymadness

Think it depends on the area of the state your in, there is parts of Southern Utah that still have plenty of cats still.


----------



## Packout

I have no idea on true numbers, but this year there were 6 different lions on our small ranch in Central Utah. One female with 3 kittens, one young cat and one old cat. Now we have a huge cougar that has been visiting our feedlot in Highland, walking down the driveway. That seems like a lot to me, but that is my own little world.

One thing to consider is that when the sheep were transplanted onto Mt Timp in Cedar Hills it wasn't 10 days before the cats killed a couple and the rest were on the Alpine Country Club. So the UDWR declared war on cougars and from Dry Creek in Alpine to Provo Canyon they killed over 40 (I think it was 42) in 8 months. That number still blows my mind. No one ever thought they had those numbers, not even biologists. Of course that was a decade ago.

I think cats use the fragmented areas to their advantage, just like deer or elk. Pressure them a little and they head to the private lands or deep stuff where they don't get chased.


----------



## Iron Bear

What we may be seeing is not to diffrent than what happened to the deer herd. There is an assumption that the large deer herds we had in the 50s 60s 70s consumed too much forage and it has led to smaller populations. Maybe thats true. Maybe managing a species at or above its range capacity leads to detriment. In the case of the cougar for last 30 yrs we have managed them at or above their capacity. On the same time line we have seen a drastic reduction in deer. And it stands to reason if the deer population is at a 50yr low the cougar and other predators are soon to follow. 

I have tried to warn houndsman that the answer to more cougar is more deer. So if they would support managing cougar below capacity then they can have the cake and eat it too. 500,000 deer would support 3000 cats a lot better than 250,000. Thats why we should manage cougar on a per deer basis rather than guessing on a per acre basis.


----------



## jahan

Packout said:


> I have no idea on true numbers, but this year there were 6 different lions on our small ranch in Central Utah. One female with 3 kittens, one young cat and one old cat. Now we have a huge cougar that has been visiting our feedlot in Highland, walking down the driveway. That seems like a lot to me, but that is my own little world.
> 
> One thing to consider is that when the sheep were transplanted onto Mt Timp in Cedar Hills it wasn't 10 days before the cats killed a couple and the rest were on the Alpine Country Club. So the UDWR declared war on cougars and from Dry Creek in Alpine to Provo Canyon they killed over 40 (I think it was 42) in 8 months. That number still blows my mind. No one ever thought they had those numbers, not even biologists. Of course that was a decade ago.
> 
> I think cats use the fragmented areas to their advantage, just like deer or elk. Pressure them a little and they head to the private lands or deep stuff where they don't get chased.


I agree with Packout and Muleymadness. The cougar and bear populations down where I hunt are crazy high. I have ran into a cougar two out of the last three years in the same area. This is in the Central Mountains area, more specifically around Potters Pond. I don't know anything about the Wasatch, so I will take your guys word that the populations are down, but I know they aren't where I hunt.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Iron Bear said:


> What we may be seeing is not to diffrent than what happened to the deer herd. There is an assumption that the large deer herds we had in the 50s 60s 70s consumed too much forage and it has led to smaller populations. Maybe thats true. Maybe managing a species at or above its range capacity leads to detriment. In the case of the cougar for last 30 yrs we have managed them at or above their capacity. On the same time line we have seen a drastic reduction in deer. And it stands to reason if the deer population is at a 50yr low the cougar and other predators are soon to follow.
> 
> I have tried to warn houndsman that the answer to more cougar is more deer. So if they would support managing cougar below capacity then they can have the cake and eat it too. 500,000 deer would support 3000 cats a lot better than 250,000. Thats why we should manage cougar on a per deer basis rather than guessing on a per acre basis.


Speaking of propaganda....... :mrgreen:

That was my first thought when I read the first post. Smaller prey base=smaller predator numbers.

Maybe the ebb and flow of deer/cougar/coyote consists of long, gradual peaks and valleys. One thing for certain is that having cougars as a commodity vs. the nuisance they were considered to be 20 or 30 years ago doesn't help deer in any way. Maximizing their population for hunting, even with deer populations in mind just throws another wrench into being able to effectively manage deer to their potential numbers.

I have a question; How many cougar hunters do we have vs. deer hunters? Wouldn't it be safe to say that managing them according to a relative breakdown of users make sense?

Off hand, does anyone have the number of cougar tags sold in the state the last few years?

Statewide harvest objective?


----------



## Iron Bear

Cougar permits sold. 05-09

Yr Total HO LE
05 1404 1131 273
06 1092 686 406
07 1211 845 366
08 1162 825 337
09 1086 763 323


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Interesting.

Any idea on harvest? I know that it's mandatory.


----------



## goofy elk

I'll tell Ya exactly were there are still are respectable lion population left in Utah..

The Monroe and Stansbury,,,,,Collards cat with an on going lion stuidie,,L/E with
low permit numbers..On top of that ,collard lions can not be harvested on Stansbury.
The Monroe IS going to be opened to H/O hunting in March,,And the objective will fill.

A few other L/E units holding lions would be South Manti, Vernon is OK, And
the two Wasatch units a fair,,But as airborn indicates, NOTHING like it was..

ALSO , The Wasatch front ,point of the mountain north, Right along urban utopia,
lions are doing well, part of that is hounds men don't like to run there,,,,,,,,
INCLUDING me,,,,TOO much BS to deal with there..

Some of the REAL nasty units hold cats and always will, Rocky cl-iffy stuff that
cats can get away in,,,,,Nine mile, Kaiparowits ,Escalante are a few..

Now, I could make a list were just a few years ago there were health lion

populations but now are gone... :?

And H/O permit sales are falling fast,,As Iron bear points out.
Hard to sell tags when you cant find a track ....


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

goofy elk said:


> Now, I could make a list were just a few years ago there were health lion
> 
> populations but now are gone... :?


What constitutes a "health" lion population? I'm sure it would vary with different interest.


----------



## goofy elk

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Any idea on harvest? I know that it's mandatory.


For the 2008-2009 cougar season, 323 limited entry permits and 763 harvest objective permits
were sold. Total limited entry permits included 298 limited entry permits, 19 regional or
statewide conservation permits, and 6 unit convention permits. A total of 325 cougars 
were harvested during the 2008-2009 sport season. 
Also, 16 conservation permit holders harvested cougars that year. 
21 cougars taken by Wildlife Services during the 2008-2009 season, and 31 other
mortalities (roadkill, found dead, DWR control).
855 cougar pursuit permits were sold and 732 pursuers went afield during the 2008-2009 
couger pursuit season.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Packout said:


> I have no idea on true numbers, but this year there were 6 different lions on our small ranch in Central Utah. One female with 3 kittens, one young cat and one old cat. Now we have a huge cougar that has been visiting our feedlot in Highland, walking down the driveway. That seems like a lot to me, but that is my own little world.
> 
> One thing to consider is that when the sheep were transplanted onto Mt Timp in Cedar Hills it wasn't 10 days before the cats killed a couple and the rest were on the Alpine Country Club. So the UDWR declared war on cougars and from Dry Creek in Alpine to Provo Canyon they killed over 40 (I think it was 42) in 8 months. That number still blows my mind. No one ever thought they had those numbers, not even biologists. Of course that was a decade ago.
> 
> I think cats use the fragmented areas to their advantage, just like deer or elk. Pressure them a little and they head to the private lands or deep stuff where they don't get chased.


Ill have to second packout as well. I see loads of tracks every year where I hunt. I have never seen a lion hunter set foot in those mountains either..

I was working in the foothills above cedar hills when they were taking out the lions. I found 4 cats in snares in a weeks time. I never thought there were that many on that hill back then because I only saw one set of tracks on that hill that year.

So I think cats are like ****roaches/mice if you see one there are at least 10 you dont see.

I also think our bears are affecting the deer way more then anyone wants to admit. I never saw bears 10 years ago and I seen them quite often now days. I see them on the trail cameras and see them on the side of the hills I even saw this about a week ago. Is it an active bear den?






I know coyotes are extra thick this year. I swear ive seen at least 50 in the last 10 days. Granted most were on antelope island but alot were on public ground. Now I have to ask my self this question are coyotes that big of a problem with our deer? If everyone says they are how come antelope island has more coyotes then Ive ever seen and how come it still has a stable population of deer, antelope, sheep? I do know if it didnt have coyotes the animals would eat them selves out of house and home and die of starvation.

here is a clip of the coyotes






I do see these more then I like


----------



## Kevin D

Whether there are too many lion or not in Utah is debatable. That is an opinion question based on your individual perspective. But whether or not cougar populations in the state are declining or increasing is a scientiffic question, and in that the data is pretty clear.

Two reasons for the decline in cougar populations is first, as mentioned, the decline in the deer herd. As in all predator/prey relationships, when prey numbers increase, predator populations will naturally increase as well. The converse is also true, that a decrease in the prey species will be followed in short order to a decrease in the predator species.

The other reason is more political in nature. Groups like the SFW have been pressuring policy makers to reduce the number of cougar in an attempt to increase the deer herds. For the most part, policy makers have given them what they asked for by granting more permits. Maybe Goofy Elk has some historical data to see how many more cougar tags are offered in the 2000's as compared to the 1980's (the pre SFW days).

Now, it is debatable whether reducing lion populations will increase the actual long term poulation of the deer herds, or just consign any short term increases to other forms of death. So far from everything I have seen, I honestly believe that those who think we can bring back the deer herd just by killing lions are in for a big disappointment.


----------



## Packout

Kevin- That was a great post. I never knew a houndsman could be so eloquent.  

The deer herd around Alpine/PG really boomed after they killed all those. It is still a strong herd, but suffered some loss in the last hard winter ( 2007? ). There are many cats still in the area though. Kind of wierd to tree cats and listen to ladies talk in their driveway.

Goofy- Add the Deep Creeks to your list of units with a strong lion population. Not enough guys willing to run that rock pile and deal with the tribal lands.

Just wondering, is killing 10-15% of the cougar population each year enough to really impact their overall numbers? Are most houndsmen shooting mostly males? I honestly don't know the answers.


----------



## goofy elk

Pre 1997 lion hunting was limited entry only for many years..

In 1989-90 there were 385 resident and 142 Non-res L/E permits.
In total there were 527 lion permits issued,,,,,AND 355 pursuit only permits..
These numbers were consistent through 1992...

In 1995-96 the L/E permits jumped to 611 resident and 261 non-res.....
A long with an increase of pursuit only permits to 627 ..

The next year 1996-97, is when harvest objective began,And yes, SFW pushed this.
There were still L/E permits, 425 res and 170 non-res along with 901 H/O permits..
For a total of 1,496 lion permits issued.There were 666 lions killed by hunters that year.

In 1989-90 there were 275 lions harvested that year 527 permits were issued..

This year, there will be around 1,100 lion permits issued between H/O, L/E, and split.
2010-11 could very well be the first year since 1990 total lions harvested will drop
below the 275 mark,,,,,,,,The way its going with the numbers that have been checked
in so far this year,,,We could see LESS than 250 lions harvested for the first time in
OVER a quarter CENTURY!!,,,,,,,,,,,,Wouldn't surprise me one bit.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Are there more or less houndsmen these days then say, 1990?


----------



## Iron Bear

Houndsmen holding their cards so close to their chest is IMO a big reason that the cougar harvest is low. Go buy a HO tag and see how easy it is to hire a houndsmen to guide you. I bet its a harder hunt to find a guide than the hunt itself.


----------



## goofy elk

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Are there more or less houndsmen these days then say, 1990?


More,,,,The last 8 years in a row there has been between 700 and 800 pursuit only
cougar permits sold by the DWR..


----------



## goofy elk

Iron Bear said:


> Houndsmen holding their cards so close to their chest is IMO a big reason that the cougar harvest is low. Go buy a HO tag and see how easy it is to hire a houndsmen to guide you. I bet its a harder hunt to find a guide than the hunt itself.


Here's the deal Bear,,,NOT VERY many hounds men are licensed to guide....
And every one pretty much knows who's licensed and who's not......

Any hounds men spotted guiding without a Utah guide license is going to end up
in deep CHIT........Its extremely serious and could lose vehicles and equipment
if law enforcement pushes it........

Then you have about 700 guys with dogs that wouldn't kill a lion right now for
their mother,,OR anyone else for that matter.........That's just how it is right now.


----------



## James

I had hounds in the early 1960s and hunted bobcats. I would have been happy to run a lion, but never cut a track. There was a lot of deer then. The lions and bobcats were considered vermin. No protection. They were shot on sight. My hunting pard happened on a lion one day when I was not with him. He treed it quickly with one hound dog. It was a big ol tom. That is the only lion I ever saw bagged in the years I hunted in Northern Utah. 

Then the lion got protection and since there was plenty of deer they multiplied dramatically. Next thing you knew the deer herds were reduced dramatically. I don't think the lions were the sole reason. Loss of winter habitat and increased hunting pressure certainly took its toll too. The farmers were happy to have less damage from the reduced deer herds. Of course the areas where the farmers had the worst damage is now subdivisions. Yes, houses were built on most of the prime winter range. Lions or no, the winter range is the limiting factor on the deer herds. Its not coming back. 

Just my observations from this vantage point. 

Oh, BTW Tex "BS! They're just getting smarter. If you're a cat and you've been run "for fun" a time or two, you're not going to let it happen again any time soon. "

Any hound man will tell you your theory is wrong.


----------



## bigbr

I can tell you that the catamount population is alive and well on Timp south. I get a lion on my security cameras about once a month and see them walking my back fence even in the summer months, late at night. The cats are doing quite nicely on the urban stray dog and cat population not to say that we have a few suburban deer herds that do not even venture back into the foot hills anymore and have places to hang out in suburbia. The high dollar homes on the east bench of Orem and PG haven’t got a clue what is roaming in their neighborhoods at night as they slumber at night and then take their pre-dawn jog on the Lake Bonneville shoreline trail. I am utterly amazed that we have not had more human – lion confrontations in Utah. I guess it is because the lions have learned to adapt kind of like the 32 brown bears that are living within the city limits of Anchorage Alaska. Timmy maybe right, we can coexhist.

If you really want to know the strength of the lion population in an area? Talk with a local trapper. Some ten years ago I stopped trapping due to the harassment I was receiving from them tan clothes section at Macys. I can tell you that ten years ago we had catamounts in places in Utah that the DWR said had no lions. I switched to #1.75 traps just to try and keep lions out of my traps. I have a few friends that run dogs and they are telling me that that lions are in short supply, but I know that they, like me, have slowed down in there outdoor activities as it is no longer as attractive to wake up at three and four in the morning and crawl out of bed to have a nice brisk -4 degree walk in the park…so to speak. Bengay is up in price about 50 percent and us baby boomers are looking for the upper 70’s on the thermostat to soothe our arthritic bones!

I hear the younger generation spout a whole bunch of theories and stories about how good they really are in pursuing the trade, however I believe that we have lost a lot of knowledge with a lot of good trappers and houndsmen calling it quits. Most of their knowledge never got passed on to the Generation X’ers and to infinity and beyond generations. I truly believe that it is not cool to trap or run hounds and as has already been pointed out, unless you have joined the new fraternal order of unionized hunting helpers and registered with DOPL, there’s no money in it for the average joe or should I say kid scraping by on lunch and milk money.

From my porch I am still seeing skunks and raccoons and big kitties……Big


----------



## goofy elk

bigbr,, I was one of the few that hunted cats on Timp the last few years...
Not doing it any more,,,,,I cant stand hunting around houses and all the
hassle that gos along with "urban"ville"......

There was one very nice tom we didn't get that circles by the Orem water
tanks, cuts across low on home owners fence lines, then turns up Dry canyon..

BUT,,, the over all cat numbers on Timp and Cascade are WAAAAAY down...
NOTHING like it was when, like packout refers to, and it went to H/O hunting and 42
cats came off the two mountains in one year,,,,2002?, or 03........

So far this year , only 2 have been harvested off cascade and ZERO off Timp..


----------



## Kevin D

Treehugnhuntr said:


> I have a question; How many cougar hunters do we have vs. deer hunters? Wouldn't it be safe to say that managing them according to a relative breakdown of users make sense?


Here is how I would answer that question Tree...

What that idea is really advocating is game management by politics.....that whatever the majority wants they should get. Okay, so there are 100,000 deer hunters in the state every year but only 900 houndsmen therefore the will of deer hunters should prevail right?? Well hold on a minute, since game animals belong to the state (i.e. the people) and currently there are 2.8 million residents in Utah, shouldn't these other 2.7 million citizens also have a say??? Certainly, if we are making game management decisions are to be based on majority rules!

But, is majority rules game management decisions really a path we want to go down?? Look at what happened in California back in 1992, by popular vote all cougar hunting was banned. Then in Washington and Oregon back in 1994, again cougar hunting was the subject of voter initiatives and again sportsmen's groups lost. In an attempt to prevent the same thing from happening in Utah, sportsmen in the state led by the SFW pushed through Proposition 5 back in 1996. The driving logic behind the proposition that we sold to the public is that we wanted game management decisions based on biology and not on politics! Wildlife is too important to be left to the whims of politics.

So my caveat to those who think that because deer hunters outnumber houndsmen 10 to 1 and therefore their majority should prevail, is to be careful what you wish for, because you may just get it!


----------



## Kevin D

Oh, and as a side note, I can't help but be amused by the notion that somehow the DWR statistics that seem to indicate a declining cougar population are skewed because lions these days have become sneakier. Maybe that what's happened to our deer herd too!

Sneaky little devils, they are probably on the increase as well! DWR statistics are obviously in error and we all know them self serving deer hunters won't ever tell the truth!!

Gotta admit, that's funny stuff there! -_O-


----------



## blackbear

Guys, what is the history of cougar management in Utah? I always thought that they were unprotected until the 80's...
Currently, I would think that ADC takes more cougars than they actually report to the DWR every year, and I'd also venture to guess that the ADC's behavior has a lot to do with any declining bear or cougar population in the areas they do their trapping. 
I've seen lot's of bears go to waste by these ADC guys, I wish they'd give us sportsmen a chance on some of the depredating predators.


----------



## goofy elk

blackbear,,,,You'll get your chance.

They are going to open some bear units to harvest objective hunting in 2012..


----------



## Critter

blackbear said:


> Guys, what is the history of cougar management in Utah? I always thought that they were unprotected until the 80's...
> .


I think that they were protected in the mid to late 60's. I remember buying a lion and a bear tag for a dollar each and the season was all year long when I first started hunting.


----------



## goofy elk

1966


----------



## Kevin D

blackbear said:


> Guys, what is the history of cougar management in Utah? I always thought that they were unprotected until the 80's...


I don't know exactly what year cougar were reclassified from varmints to game animal, perhaps James knows the answer. I'm thinking it was in the 60's however. I was tagging along with a friend's dad on a lion hunts in 1975, and I'm certain they were protected then. By the time I got my first hounds back in 1983, I know the seasons and limits were well established.

*Edit:* Thanks Critter and Goofy.


----------



## kk11

When I started hunting lion in 1991 we treed 38 lions that first year and this year I have treed 2. I don't take the time off work I used to because the hunting is so bad, that accounts for some of my numbers. I hunt close to my house and I know there are some better places to hunt, but I hunt where I always have, it is where most the deer and elk winter around my house.


----------



## Hound Inc.

bigbr, I have to call your bluff. I live on the south part of Timp. I have hiked 23 days this winter, most days from Provo Canyon, to AF Canyon, so roughly 17 miles. There are 2 cats I have cut, and caught a couple times. But to say the lion population is doing well, come on. And whoever has this lion walking down there driveway in Alpine, please call me, my dogs are in dire need of a "gimme" smoking hot track. Maybe I am just one of those young, punk, hound guys, but I get out alot, and hike, don't use my truck, I cover the flats and the hairy rocky cliffs, and this year has by far been the worst Cougar population I have seen in 10+ years hunting hounds. 

-Cheers, I am going back to hibernate with the bears.

-Hound


----------



## Mountain lion lover

I have seen 5 since March of 2013 up close in the wild and while I do worry that populations are decreasing greatly I think they will pull through.


----------



## goofy elk

Well, 3 years later and it's only gotten worse,
Guys killin every thing they tree------

Guess thats why I got out of it....:neutral:....

Haven't dropped a hound dog on a lion tract for a year and a half now ..
The pizz poor lion managment continues.


----------



## Packfish

cat scratch ???


----------



## goofy elk

^^^^^ Nope, Bear scratch right there Packfish ... ^^^^^^^


----------



## Packfish

Good to know-


----------



## BLACKEYE

Well I took a phone call the other day I was told "outdoors with Adam Eakle" on KSL 5 in Utah is doing a show on this very topic lions in Utah.

Should be aired on saturday 3-8-14

We should have some better answers to a few questions here.

Take a look and see what you all think!!


----------



## Nate

How do they determine how many Mountain Lions can be harvested?


----------



## Kevin D

Several factors go in to it, but basically 10% of predator populations is considered surplus. Allowing 5% for natural mortality, that leaves 5% of the population for hunter harvest without affecting the overall population. So if you have a population of 100 cats and you want 5 taken out by hunters, factor in the hunter success rate from past seasons and that is the number if tags you issue for the unit.

Of course there are other variables a biologist may want to factor in, but this formula gives them a starting point.


----------



## Nate

Kevin D said:


> Several factors go in to it, but basically 10% of predator populations is considered surplus. Allowing 5% for natural mortality, that leaves 5% of the population for hunter harvest without affecting the overall population. So if you have a population of 100 cats and you want 5 taken out by hunters, factor in the hunter success rate from past seasons and that is the number if tags you issue for the unit.
> 
> Of course there are other variables a biologist may want to factor in, but this formula gives them a starting point.


How do they determine the current population of Mountain Lions?


----------



## Kevin D

Given the nature of the reclusive beasts, hard population numbers are pretty much impossible to come by. So biologists come up with an estimate based primarily on 3 things, acreage of suitable habitat, size of the prey base, and their own gut feeling. While these population estimates are far from perfect, it does provide an adequate starting point to manage the species.


----------



## fishreaper

The cats must be around. Every cave I saw while hiking today had at least one deer skeleton, from the looks of them probably less than a year, a year and a half at most, based simply on the size of the skull. One of them still had fur attached but the exposed bone was otherwise bleached white by time. I do mean every cave. But I suppose it could be a bear as well. I was only about 5-6 miles east of Logan.


----------



## Kevin D

fishreaper said:


> The cats must be around. Every cave I saw while hiking today had at least one deer skeleton, from the looks of them probably less than a year, a year and a half at most, based simply on the size of the skull. One of them still had fur attached but the exposed bone was otherwise bleached white by time. I do mean every cave. But I suppose it could be a bear as well. I was only about 5-6 miles east of Logan.


Kinda sounds like you were in those ledges on the sunny side of Right Hand Fork. But those are old lion kills. Seems like there has always been a female raising kittens through that stretch of the canyon and those ledges with all the holes and crevices are a natural nursery for them. Typically a lion will make a kill and drag it just far enough into the brush to conceal it from other scavengers. But a female with kittens of a certain age will drag the kill back to the den to feed them.....and that is why, I suspect, you are seeing all the bones around those caves.


----------



## Skally

Whats the fun of shooting a cat out of a tree? i just dont get it


----------



## Iron Bear

It saves 50 deer a yr from getting killed by it. Now what could be more fun than that?


----------



## Skally

Iron Bear said:


> It saves 50 deer a yr from getting killed by it. Now what could be more fun than that?


so our deer numbers should be exploding with the cat numbers way down RIGHT?


----------



## Iron Bear

Not really. Not when we have 1 cat for every 150 deer.

Which is the most important number when it comes to deer and cougar. Want more cougar you need more deer. But when 1/3 of the herd goes to feeding cats throw in what coyotes do, road kill then harvesting 30,000 buck. It should be no mystery why the deer herd doesn't explode.


----------



## wyoming2utah

Iron Bear said:


> Which is the most important number when it comes to deer and cougar. Want more cougar you need more deer.


I can't believe I am even responding to your posts anymore, but, oh well, here goes...

...do you really think that the only prey for cougars is deer? based on the above quote, you must not believe in the predator pit hypothesis or that cougars prey on elk, rabbits, or any other animal.


----------



## Iron Bear

Yep cougar are opportunist. They will kill and eat just about anything that presents an easy meal. 

But they sustain themselves on deer. One a week on average. How many turkey and rabbit do you believe it takes to feed a cougar 50 to 100 lbs of meat a week? 

And do you really believe that cougar feed on elk like they do deer?


----------



## wyoming2utah

So, you don't believe in the predator pit hypothesis? You are funny....so, if there were no deer, there would be no way a cougar could survive?


----------



## swbuckmaster

Cougars will feed on elk if their desperate but elk isnt on the menue. When cougars start feeding on elk you have a broken prey base.

Right now the prey base is small. There are very few rabits compaired to when I was a kid. This forces coyotes and cats to focus more on the deer. 

Iron bear is correct if you cut the cats and cogars numbers down enough the deer numbers rebound. I seen it with my own eyes when they took 42 cats off timp. Two years later and there were deer every where. Sure its a temporary fix because the cats just migrated back in. So you have to spend a lot of time and money killing them. 

W2U your the type that believes predator dont affect game. What happend to all the hunting opportunity people had on the migrating elk herd in yellowstone when they introduced wolves? They ate the hunters piece of the pie is what happend. 

W2u You can think all you want that all you need is one buck per hundred does and you have a healthy growing deer herd. The truth is its bs. It forces cats to eat more does and fawns. It creates a predator pit. Combine this with poor feed like lonetree talks about and you see the big picture of why the prey base isnt rebounding like it should.

No one wants to include bears but utah has an all time high number of bears right now. They're hitting fawns pretty hard in the spring. They can also take down adult deer if they get the chance. I actually saw one sneaking up on some does on my hunt. It was focused on them and got within 15 yards before the deer saw it and blew out. If there wasnt a bush between them I'm sure the bear would have taken one right in front of me because he was going for them.


----------



## wyoming2utah

You two are funny....! SW and Ironbear, you two can think all you want that predators are the reason the deer are down, but NOTHING supports this idea! And, almost every time a study is done to try and show that killing more predators will grow a deer herd, we find out it isn't true!

MY "type" knows that predator/prey relationships are a lot more complex than what your "type" can even comprehend. It is your "type" that gives hunters this ******* hick stereotype and a bad name....


----------



## swbuckmaster

W2U
What happend to the elk numbers in yellowstone when they introduced the wolves? Your bark eating type would like me to believe nothing. The hunters and guides you are calling ******** or hillbillies who made a living on those elk will have a different view. 

W2U
Do you support the introduction of wolves in utah?


----------



## wyoming2utah

Like I have said many many times to you and others....I have NEVER said that predators like the wolf do NOT affect prey. NEVER! Obviously, the wolves have helped drop the yellowstone elk herd. And every single yuppie tree-hugging wolf love would tell you the same... BUT, let me ask you this: what is the elk herd objective for the yellowstone herd and how near it are we? What about the wolf population objective?

Do I support the introduction of wolves to Utah? No. Why? Because I am afraid we will not be allowed to manage them and the feds will not allow us to kill enough of them to effectively manage them.

SW, since you are on the anti-predator bandwagon, how do you explain the FACT that multiple studies done in multiple states are showing that killing more coyotes and mountain lions are NOT bringing back the deer herds and increasing fawn production? What about lion numbers? Do you believe that lion numbers are way down across the state or are they really high?


----------



## swbuckmaster

W2U
Just like wolves affect elk cougars, bears, and coyotes affect deer. Is it the silver bullet or solution to the low deer problem no but im not ignorant to the fact they play a part.


----------



## wyoming2utah

Cougars, bears, and coyotes certainly affect deer and deer populations. I will NEVER argue with that....what I argue is whether or not they are the limiting factor or one of the limiting factors to our overall deer herds.

I believe that in certain situations and possibly on certain units deer can be limited by predators, but overall, I don't think they are the limiting factor or even one of them.


----------



## Fishrmn

Funny how the historical high numbers of mule deer occurred when cougars and bears were considered vermin, and were shot without limits, licenses, or seasons. And ever since then, now that there are limits and seasons for bear and cougars, the deer numbers are down and don't seem to be rebounding. During that time very few people saw cougars or bears. Now they're everywhere. They are found in our own backyards. Twice this summer that I can recall.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


----------



## Iron Bear

And funny how deer numbers back east that are still largely void of apex predators like cougar are still at historical highs. And hunting is safe as ever there because hunters have not been replaced by natural predators. 

And funny how a state like California that won't allow a cougar hunt and has 3x the mule deer habitat as Utah and hardly any winter kill. Harvests less than 1/3 of the deer that Utah does. 

Pretty simple to figure out its because predator do most of the killing in Cali just like they did before settlement. And Utah and the rest if the west is edging toward the same. 

Does any one think that deer hunting in Utah is a necessary or vital part to the deer herd health. Does anyone believe if we were to close deer hunting down in Utah today the deer hard would explode. 

I'd rather be indispensable then tolerated any day. And in places like Cali hunters are tolerated at best. In Pennsylvania deer hunters are indispensable. And it has nothing to do with weather human encroachment or selenium.


----------



## wyoming2utah

Funny how in Utah cougars were no longer considered "vermin" by the state legislature starting in 1967....YET, deer numbers peaked in the mid 1980s as cougar populations began to rise.

Funny how cougar harvest objectives have been liberalized on units less than 65% of their objective, yet even has cougar harvests have gradually increased since 1996 (when the predator management policy was instituted), there has been ZERO correlation between the harvesting more cougars and increasing deer herds in Utah!

Funny how mule deer and whitetail deer are different and how whitetail seemed to be thriving across their ranges and mule deer seem to be struggling....even in states with relatively large predator populations--like Texas!

I, for one, believe that if we shut down the deer hunting in Utah, we would see a lot more bucks but our deer population numbers would be relatively unchanged!


----------



## Fishrmn

I got a video at a trail camera last year of a cougar that had just killed a squirrel. The cat drank what seemed like a couple of gallons of water. It was nearly exhausted from the effort of catching not much more than a couple of mouthfuls of food. I doubt they get big by eating squirrels. I also see very few deer at this location. Cougars are there quite often. I wonder why that is? Probably because the cougars have eaten all of the deer, and now have to resort to chasing squirrels.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


----------



## goofy elk

Mountain lion numbers in Utah ?

Once again, Right now ?

Lowest I've seen them in 25 years.


----------



## Lonetree

You can always tell people that actually know cats, because they seem to know to the day, when they disappeared, just like the deer. Its been since the early 1990s since I saw large numbers of lions, just before the deer crashed.

And like has been said before, lion numbers have remained suppressed, showing no correlation between lion numbers and deer numbers. This is not just in Utah, I know hounds men in MT that will tell you the same story about lions there. 

Same goes for CA, they kill just as many lions now, as they did before they banned hunting(~250/year), yet the over all lion population has decreased in the last 20 years. And again no correlation to deer numbers in MT or CA. 

White tails have declined back East over the last decade, and there have also been declines in MT, MI, WI and NE. But because there are so many in some places, with limits of 5 deer in some places, these declines are not as striking as mule deer declines in the West. 

So given that lion numbers are as low as they are, we will need to invent another deer predator like coyotes. Oh, never mind, I see that has already been done..........


----------



## Iron Bear

Now it's getting deep. So you see lots of cats out walking around the woods? But not as many as today as you did in the early 90s? I know your a SOB but I never figured you were red bone or blue tick.


----------



## Lonetree

Iron Bear said:


> Now it's getting deep. So you see lots of cats out walking around the woods? But not as many as today as you did in the early 90s? I know your a SOB but I never figured you were red bone or blue tick.


I learned how to "walk out" lions back in the late '80s early '90s from a lion poacher that used to work the Wasatch front. Some of the stuff was too rough to run dogs, so he walked them. Thats when he was not using steel jaw traps.

Back then there were lions everywhere. Lion numbers started to really drop just before the deer numbers did. In the winter of '93/'94, when the dead deer were starting to pile up, there were not that many lions to be found, compared to just a few years before. But there were a lot more than there are now.

I remember the winter of '93/'94 well, I spent almost every day of it in the mountains.


----------



## maffleck

I just returned from the Deep Creeks elk hunting and we had more mountain lions on the trail cams than elk. They are everywhere out there. We put up one camera and the next morning a 4x4 buck was killed right on our camera by a lion.


----------



## Iron Bear

See many deer out there? 

Did you know that 4x4 was just going to die anyway. That cougar did it a favor.


----------



## LostLouisianian

maffleck said:


> I just returned from the Deep Creeks elk hunting and we had more mountain lions on the trail cams than elk. They are everywhere out there. We put up one camera and the next morning a 4x4 buck was killed right on our camera by a lion.


Let's see some of the pics man !!!


----------

