# Dutton Alert



## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

For those of you that are unaware, the United States Forest Service (USFS) is closing approx. 95% of all the roads on the Dutton Unit. Other forests are or will be under the same attack. I just spent the last 2 weeks traveling the unit and a vast majority of the roads are already closed while many more are marked for destruction. Many of us feel that this is an arbitrary attempt to limit the public use of a public resource and complete and blatant discrimination against handicapped and elderly persons.
I spoke with a USFS representative for the Powell Ranger Dist. in Panguitch. This individual identified the criteria for the selection of roads to be closed and many of the roads that are being closed do not meet the criteria. I was advised that Washington has dictated that each forest is allowed so many miles of road for every sq. mile of forest, roads need to be closed to achieve that goal. I was also advised that the intent was to closes less than 75% of the roads. When I questioned about the high percentage for the Dutton area, I was advised that the Powell Ranger Dist. in comprised of the Dutton and the Paunsaugunt, because the Paunsaugunt receives more publicity and public use by hikers and bicyclists that the decision was made to transfer a portion of the closures to the Dutton instead of the Paunsaugunt.

The USFS will allow vehicle travel off the roadway to a camp site, no more than 150' from the center line of the road, this includes woodcutting travel also.

As a hunter, I can see the benefit to the wildlife with the road closure. In reality, the benifit will not be there as much because so many people ignore the closures and travel where they please anyway. The overall detriment will by far out weigh the benefits.

The USFS representative advised me that this was driven by the environmentalists in Washington and has no merit locally. The specific roads to be closed were decided by the Dixie Forest Supervisor Rob MacWherter, who has never stepped a foot on the Dutton nor does he have a clue about the area. I understand he has made the comment that no one uses wood for primary heating any longer, in regards to wood cutting for heating purposes, that is how far out of touch he is.

If many thought the Southern units were over crowded before, look out The congestion is going to get worse, with the only camping and parking being on the main road.

Currently the road from Antimony to Cottonwood is open and a small portion of the East and West Hunt Creek roads are open. These are closed not too far into the hills and all spur roads off these are closed.

I hope you are as disappointed as I am with our government agency that should be the steward of the land for the benefit of the public instead of limiting uses for the public. They are managing for the few special groups instead of the majority of public.

I urge everyone that is concerned with this situation to call the Dixie National Forest office in Cedar City or the Powell Ranger Dist Office in Panguitch and verbally file a complaint. We can only slow down this loss of public land by making our voices heard.

USFS advertises the "land of many uses", it is now the land of few uses.
USFS is quickly becoming Public Enemy # 1.

The forest nearest you will be next if not currently in action, so please go forth and scream!

Joe


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

Wait a minute the reason I picked Dutton as my unit to hunt was because of its lack of roads. What roads could they possibly be closing? Do you have a map of what's going on or a link to a map?
I have tons of questions about this as it could affect my hunt in August. :shock: 

Allen


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## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

It's high time our State leaders get off of their @$$es and reclaim the land!!!

I say, by eminent domain, the state should reclaim ownership of all federal lands located within our state boundaries. Let's have an equal amount of federal land in every state. If the fed owns/controls only 1% of New Hampshire, or Rhode Island, etc, then it can only own 1% of Utah, CO, CA, and any other state it has its grubby evil hands in. 

Time for our state reps and leaders to step up, kick out the fed, and shut down the "National" of the forests. We can manage our lands much better than the stupid environmentalists who never have set foot in the West, let alone, on Dutton Mountain.


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

I too enjoy the areas of roadlessness on the Dutton, but there are many old roads for people to travel to watch the wildlife or camp. The roads have there place in the overall system. I do not believe the USFS should be dictating to the public about there lands when it comes to minimizing public access. If the public wants to go somewhere that they are severly limited and access is only on foot, go to a National Park.
The only public meetings were held in 2008 and the only information available was in a concept format. The public was not notified about specific closures.
From the info I received from the local USFS in Panguitch, there are no maps currently available indicating the road closures. Just plan on all of them being closed except the main road.
I will be on the mountain for the archery elk hunt as well.
Good luck, the main road will be crowded.


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

Took a while cause my internet is a slug at work today but I found this.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/dixie/projects/ ... powell.pdf


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

This one is worse no way into Deer Creek from the bottom.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/dixie/projects/ ... 120909.pdf


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

They just did all that conservation work in the bottom of Deer Creek so they could shut it down? WTH? So, one of the most remote units in the state just became more remote, while the Pauns still has roads going everywhere. Politics at work!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Time to sell your wheeler and buy a horse.


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## Vern21 (Jul 8, 2010)

are you kidding me. I am coming down for the rifle hunt but coming down next week to scout around I guess I'm in for a big suprize. Is the loop open from west Hunt over to East Hunt or is that closed.


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

Vern 
Going by the links I posted I would say the hunt creek loop is closed, but looks like you could get part way in from both east and west drainages. Let us know when you get back whats open and whats not. My big concern is Deer creek, my son and I had planned on driving back to the trail head and back pack in for a couple of days. It would be out of the question if we had to pack in from the 22

Allen


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Forest Circus.............Department of Aggravation!!!

There is a website that might interest you..........http://forestcircus.com/

That is where I get all my best appearal.


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

As of last Thursday you could still get to East hunt from West Hunt. I did not see any markers or painting on the ground there. You can only get a couple miles up East Hunt from that junction if even that far.


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## Vern21 (Jul 8, 2010)

Will do


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Good. ATV's are ruining things for everyone. It's about time the FS grew some balls and started shutting down the roads!


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Can't say I disagree too much.


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## hockey (Nov 7, 2007)

Utah needs more roadless area that is currently not in a National Park. I like the idea to take an area that is already remote and make it even more remote. There are still enough roads to make packing in not impossible. There are plenty of other areas around the Dutton to accomodate the elderly, handicapped, and atv rider


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

God forbid you can't glass the entire unit from your Honda Recon...


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## wixxman (Jul 23, 2008)

Mt. Dutton Road closure. I'm from California and have been hunting the Dutton for the last 6 years. We have had the same type of thing going on in our national forests also. They are telling us they are closing the secondary roads to conrtol erosion. Most of these roads are better than the main roads they have limited us to. What's going to happen is, they may have closed the roads to cars & trucks, but anyone with an ATV or dirt bike is just going to go around, across or cross country to get around them. The Forest Service does not have enough rangers to police these closers. It's going to end up costing them a ton of money. It just made outlaws of the people who stayed on the approved roads and stay off the closed ones. Maybe we all should just go down to Panguitch and camp in the Forest Service parking lot on their lawns etc and see how they like it. What about the tree huggers and their mountanin bikes, hikers, they just got a huge area for the own use, another way to get the hunters off the mountain, See you on the mountain oepning day. One more thing, everytime we see a forest service person, we should flag them down and give them a piece of our mind. It just going take a little time getting btch at by eyerone and their supervisors are going to hear about and hopefully the superintendant of the area. I just might take a day off and viist him in Panguitch and voice my concerns not to politely either!!!!!!
Wixxman


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## wixxman (Jul 23, 2008)

PBh needs to get an reality check!!! It's going to be hell on the mountain opeing of archery season. I can just see eveyone camping nose to nose around Jones Corral on both sides of the road. As long as you stay within 50 yards of the road you could camp all over that beatiful meadow. PBH I would ljust love to knwo where you hunt if you do and putt along behind you on my ATV or do like the anti hunters do in our "Golden State" and just hike along with you banging pots and pan anything else to make noise. I spend a ton of money in your state each year. Closing Mt Dutton roads is going to really hurt the business in the area that depend on the hunters for a good potion of their income. Otter Creek state park / camp gound is looking better all the time. Hope some one from the forest service is checking these postings! Guess I just have to start looking at other states to hunt in, if this keeps up in other areas of your state, it is going to cost your eccomny millions in lost tage sales, sales taxes, and all the money spent on food etc. 
Wixxman


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

This issue is a double edge sword!!! I personally don't like it..
I've seen sooooo many roads closed the last 10 years it literally makes me sick.

How can shutting off access to everyone that is not in GREAT shape for hiking or have horses,and
lots of time, be a good thing?

I'm seeing MILLIONS of acres closed that I enjoyed my entire life my Kidd's will NEVER SEE!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I'm seeing MILLIONS of acres closed that I enjoyed my entire life my Kidd's will NEVER SEE!


So what are you doing about it?

No disrespect, but time and again, this forum demonstrates a fundamental failure on our part to appreciate and exercise our rights, abilities and responsibilities to take an active role in our own government. We have more information available and more access to government than we've ever had before, but we sit on our hands and then complain about the decisions that others have made in our absence. Makes no **** sense. Is it "We...the People" or "Those other People"?


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I've seen sooooo many roads closed the last 10 years it literally makes me sick.


you know what makes me sick? When I see pictures of back in the day and a hunter is posing with his kill and he's 5'10" 180lbs and now I see pictures of hunters posing with their kills and they're 5'10" 300lbs. I guaran-****-tee you that 300lbs hunter probably picked up his bow a month before the hunt or his rifle the day before the hunt. I'm all for anything that encourages "hunters" to invest more ingenuity into their pursuits and take some respect back from the public eye.
I never heard of a kid saying "when I grow up I wanna be overweight, drink soda all day, and go hunting the easiest way possible". So why are so many people so deadset on hunting the ways they always have and doing things the easy way every time??? So they're closing roads on this unit or imposing certain restrictions on that unit. There are two ways of dealing with it: 1) whine about it and try and get your way regardless of whether it's right or wrong. 2) use the brain that God gave you to deal with it in a way that makes you a better person by challenging your mind and body.

There are ways of dealing with this road closure bit...umm walking, mountain bikes, llamas, horses, goats...oh wait but those require mental and physical *EFFORT*...


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

wixxman said:


> PBH I would ljust love to knwo where you hunt if you do and putt along behind you on my ATV ...


I hunt the Boulder. You are welcome to come and bring your ATV. You won't be able to follow me on it. If you are in good enough shape to follow behind me hiking, then more power to you. I wouldn't mind the company. I'll even cook you dinner.

I've been pushing for more control and limitations on ATVs on the Boulder for years. I'm glad that some things are starting to happen.

Nobody -- including myself -- wants ATVs outlawed. However, there MUST be some control and limitations as to where these ATVs are allowed to go. It sickens me to find ATVs EVERYWHERE. GET OFF Y O U R__A S S__A N D GO HIKE!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

stablebuck said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen sooooo many roads closed the last 10 years it literally makes me sick.
> ...


Here is what bugs me about your post, there are way less roads now that there was "back in the day". There was a road down nearly every canyon, people had their jeeps in nearly every spot in the forest. There was no thought of ruining stream beds, cutting down trees, ect. We are way more gentle on the ground now than we use to be. There we fat hunters back then also. I agree, we just need to adapt, not a huge deal. The reasoning behind the closures is what pisses me off, there isn't any. Where I spend most of my time they are closing existing roads and trails that have been around for 40 plus years. There weren't any new trails being created and they weren't hurting nothing. When asked why they were being closed, I was never given a good answer. It is these **** people back East that think everything needs to be road less. Now I have been happy to see them closing off trails that people have started trying to create, trust me that stuff pisses me off something fierce. I think there needs to be a good balance of areas that are roadless and areas that have access. Keep in mind hunters are a small minority when it comes to the people who use the outdoors.

PBH, it pains me to say this, but good post.  :mrgreen: :lol:


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

jahan -- just one comment about your post. You mentioned that some of those roads have been around for 40+ years. Does that mean that they are legal roads?

I know on the Boulder that there are many "roads" to go to many lakes, etc. Some of these roads have been around for many, many years. That doesn't mean that they are legal roads. They may have started out just like many ATV trails today. 1 vehicle drove across a meadow. A second followed. Then additional vehicles used the trail just "to see where it went". Next thing you know, there is a road. No NEPA study, no nothing. Just a new road. That doesn't make them legal.

So now we finally have the FS doing something about it, and closing off "roads" and trails. I think it's good. I think it's about time that they finally start trying to limit where people are going in their Rhino's and Rangers. I'm happy to see that some people do find value in roadless areas, even if it means limiting where some people have been driving for the last while.

Erosion is a serious issue, whether some people believe it or not. I can show you evidence of this on Boulder Mountain. But, it isn't always about erosion, or damage. Sometimes it's simply about setting some places aside that you can't just drive to. There is value in that. Those are some of the places I want to go.



Just a quick question, and nobody has to answer if they don't want to: How many times have you had a hunting opportunity (elk, deer, turkey, whatever) loused up thanks to a motorized vehicle? I know I have.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

PBH said:


> jahan -- just one comment about your post. You mentioned that some of those roads have been around for 40+ years. Does that mean that they are legal roads?
> 
> You make an interesting point, one of the roads accesses some powerlines, then reconnects with another trail, I guess technically it is not a numbered trail.
> 
> ...


I have had a stalk ruined a few times buy ATV's, but they were aways a way on a legal trail. Most of the time, I am far enough away from the road it is not an issue, I have had many more stalks or hunts screwed up by other hunters hiking. On several occasions I have saw quads make their own trail, but felt completely helpless as what to do. I was in the middle of no where, no cellphone service, by myself, at least four of them.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

jahan said:


> It is these **** people back East that think everything needs to be road less.


Not so. It's a common misconception, but Washington only dictates the FS responsibilities and procedures. For the most part, management decisions are a local matter.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/dixie/news/2010 ... events.htm

http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/dixie/projects/ ... ndex.shtml


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

jahan said:


> On several occasions I have saw quads make their own trail, but felt completely helpless as what to do.


Unfortunately, no amount of road closures will do any good (or bad, depending on your point of view) without enforcement. If rules aren't enforced, what good are the rules?

I had a lost opportunity at a mature bull elk on Boulder (LE Archery tag) when two motorcycles rode down an oak covered hillside, across a meadow, THROUGH the wallow I was sitting on, and up the other side of the hill. This was a "roadless" area.

Again, without enforcement, none of it matters. Too bad that our own morals can't govern our actions.


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## tlsharb (Jul 28, 2010)

First time poster. I'm one of those guys lucky enough to have hunted Dutton in the "glory days" of the late 60s/early 70s. As a 16 year old I had the blessing of shooting a big 4x4 on opening day. What a thrill! I moved east in 1980 and didn't make it back to Dutton until 3 years ago. Quite a change. In the "old" days about half the hunters just put chairs in the back of their pickups and drove around all day. The other half headed into the woods. Now it seems the ratio is more 90/10. I couldn't believe the all day ATV action. So I'm conflicted-- part of me says closing down some of the roads would be really good. Guess I'm just an old guy that thinks hunting is more than driving around and flinging arrows off a machine. But to be honest, in the last couple years of hunting, I've never crossed paths with another hunter in the woods. So the other part of me says let the ATV guys cruise the roads-- I going into the back country.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

PBH said:


> I had a lost opportunity at a mature bull elk on Boulder (LE Archery tag) when two motorcycles rode down an oak covered hillside, across a meadow, THROUGH the wallow I was sitting on, and up the other side of the hill. This was a "roadless" area.


C'mon man.... any bowhunter worth a **** can make this shot! Would have gotten you your elk too. :lol:

6:28.... the rest is just fluff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAd_Zdv8 ... re=related


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

tlsharb said:


> First time poster. I'm one of those guys lucky enough to have hunted Dutton in the "glory days" of the late 60s/early 70s. As a 16 year old I had the blessing of shooting a big 4x4 on opening day. What a thrill! I moved east in 1980 and didn't make it back to Dutton until 3 years ago. Quite a change. In the "old" days about half the hunters just put chairs in the back of their pickups and drove around all day. The other half headed into the woods. Now it seems the ratio is more 90/10. I couldn't believe the all day ATV action. So I'm conflicted-- part of me says closing down some of the roads would be really good. Guess I'm just an old guy that thinks hunting is more than driving around and flinging arrows off a machine. But to be honest, in the last couple years of hunting, I've never crossed paths with another hunter in the woods. So the other part of me says let the ATV guys cruise the roads-- I going into the back country.


Welcome to the Forum sir.

You moved to the east about the same time I moved out west.


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## wixxman (Jul 23, 2008)

I hate to say it BPH but on the ATV / Dirt Bikes going cross country on closed roads has ruined some of my stalks on the Dutton. I agree something needs to be done about it. We have mentioned this to the Forest Service personel that have come into camp to check on how long we have been camping and when we plan on leaving. They all say they have to catch them in the act. We spend at least 2 week hunting and we may see a Forest Service vehicle once or twice. What's the answer? I have talked to several people in today that have hunted Dutton for 20 plus years. The roads they are closing are roads built by the loggers at leat 25 years ago. A lot of them are roads the ranchers have put in to get to their grazing lands or water tanks they put for their cattle. What's the reasoning for closing these roads? I'm 63 years old and can't (lazy) walk in the 3 or 4 miles to the ponds I like to set my blind up on. We have stayed on the roads that have been opened. I have more than once parked my ATV and hike over a couple of ridges to hunt an area that I know is closed to ATVs, what happens here come the "locals" ATVs with Utah off road decals running down the closed trail knowing there is no one to stop them. We all know putting boulders, rocks falling tress to close the roads is just going to slow these guys down, won't take them long to have a new trail / road around the clouser. All it will do is keep some of the 4x4 trucks out of the areas closed off. The guys that love to "off road" are going to have a field day finding ways (and doing a ton of damage to the terain) to get around the clousers.
Wixxman


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's what I've done about it Finn,,
contacted Nicholas Glidden @ Dixie NF,,hes the guy in charge of closing these roads.
Nothing can be done at this point to change these road closures,,Its a done deal.
But not nearly as dramatic as I was lead to believe,,mostly spurs and logging roads are
what is being closed....

You Boulder guys would have died if you would have seen all the roads there 30 years
ago! Before Hwy 12 was paved they logged all of Boulder, There were jeep trails
EVERYWHERE....There was a time when on most of that mountain you couldn't walk
a 1/2 mile without hitting a logging road..

And the cheap shots at fat, lazy, ATV riding, people are pretty lame,,,,,,,,JMHO.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Here's what I've done about it Finn,,
> contacted Nicholas Glidden @ Dixie NF,,hes the guy in charge of closing these roads.
> Nothing can be done at this point to change these road closures,,Its a done deal.
> But not nearly as dramatic as I was lead to believe,,mostly spurs and logging roads are
> what is being closed....


That makes more sense. The new plan has a slogan "YOU CAN GET THERE FROM HERE" in caps written all over it. And try as I have, I can't find anything about any "dictates from Washington" or any percentage formulas, either.



goofy elk said:


> And the cheap shots at fat, lazy, ATV riding, people are pretty lame,,,,,,,,JMHO.


Definitely. I'd like to see some serious penalties for ATV misuse, but they do have some advantages. Sort of like tree stands. :lol:


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> And the cheap shots at fat, lazy, ATV riding, people are pretty lame,,,,,,,,JMHO.


Is there anything OK about being Fat and Lazy?!?! Everything the same, if you were starting your own business and you were hiring help would you hire the fat person or the fit person...that's what I thought...


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

Not that there aren't fat people that aren't worth their salt...just a desire that I have for hunters to garner a more respectable image from non-hunters (i.e. the other 80% of the population that votes and has a say in what happens to our public lands).


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

wixxman said:


> The roads they are closing are roads built by the loggers at leat 25 years ago. A lot of them are roads the ranchers have put in to get to their grazing lands or water tanks they put for their cattle. What's the reasoning for closing these roads?


I think you just answered your own question. Typically, logging roads are supposed to be closed once the logging operation is complete. These are not intended to be legal roads or trails. They should be closed.

As for ranchers creating new roads, again -- I would wager -- these are illegal roads that did not go through the propper steps to become a legal road. They should be closed as well.

Again, I don't believe that shutting down ATVs is the goal or answer. But, limiting their access is not a bad thing. Enforcement always will be the limiting factor.


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

Goofy elk, Rob MacWherter is the Dixie Nat. Forest supervisor, in Cedar City and has the final say on what roads are closed and what roads are open, the decision was his.
Finn the road closure protocals are direction from Washington HQ, I assume you would need to look at the official USFS directive to truely accertain where the direction was originated, I received my ifo. from a high ranking USFS employee. The direction the local forests were given was to close so many road miles as it compares to sq. miles of forest. That kind of information is for operational purposes and would obviously not be published in public relations propaganda.
PBH, some of the roads opened by logging actually has USFS signage with road or trail numbers.
I too prefer and hunt the roadless areas. I usually look for the deepest darkest drainages and jump in. I prefer to see feew animals and no people than lots of OK animals and lots of people. With that said, we all need to remember that we hunters are only a portion of the people that use the forest and to wish all roads closed for our selfish benefit would not be appropriate. Many people fish, photograph and just enjoy the solitude of the mountains. As Wixx stated, there are people with physical limitations being it age or a handicap (not talking about fat and lazy), that will forever be banished from a lot of the country due to access road closures. I have hunted this mountain for many years and have yet had a problem getting away from the crowds.
The times that I have hunted closer to the roads, I too have had ATV's driving on closed sections or cross country and they have ruined many a days hunt because of slob hunter ethics. I have packed in a couple miles to a remote area holding large bucks to have an ATV run down the ridge I was hunting, on a road that had been closed for close to 15 years. In Colorado, I spent 3 days patterning spme bulls for my dad. We hiked 3 hours in the dark to be there at daylight. I had the bulls coming in at daylight, they were 80 yds. out and 2 ATV's came crashing down a clearly closed trail, stopped between us and the elk, grabbed there bows as if they were the bad hunters. After many heated words, I wrote down all the information about the ATV's, reg. numbers etc. included a physical description of the pertetrators. I took all the documented info. to the USFS office in Meeker and they told me too bad, they did not see it, so it did not happen.
You speak of NEPA and proper procedures for establishing roads, NEPA has not been around that long and most of these roads were established by ranchers way before the forests were truely regulated. In regards to erosion, I have seen roads that have been in place for more than the 40 years I have been on the mountain and almost none of them have noticable erosion issues. The main roads do have considerable erosion issues and it is usually made worse after the USFS grades them each year.
For those of us that want to get away from the crowds, we need to seek the remote areas and go for it, for those that can't or prefer staying close to the roads, they should be able to do just that. The forest is for ALL, not just a select few.
Inapproriate ATV use should be enforced. If we did not have ethically challenged people among our ranks, we would not need these discussions.
Good luck to all on your hunts, shoot straight and get the big one.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Great post Bucksnbulls08!


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

> Re: Dutton Alert
> by stablebuck » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:59 am
> 
> Not that there aren't fat people that aren't worth their salt...just a desire that I have for hunters to garner a more respectable image from non-hunters (i.e. the other 80% of the population that votes and has a say in what happens to our public lands).


Must be nice to be the "perfect image" of a hunter stablebuck. There are a lot of things that non hunters see that diminishes their "respect" for hunters, and I don't think someone that is overweight and riding a atv is high on the list. But hey, we all have priorities, right?


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

All this bitching and moaning for nothing. I just barely got back from the Dutton. Spent the last 3 days there and not once did a trail being closed affect me or my group. The area's that they are closing are pretty much trails and not roads. And these trails don't really help you get into an area. All the main roads and camping spots are all open.

I was glad to see them up there working, the forest service is actually fixing some of the roads and doing alot of work on them for eroison control. 

I said this on mm as well, but I would be more worried about the fawn and calf recruitment on Dutton then I would be the trail closers.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

stablebuck said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > And the cheap shots at fat, lazy, ATV riding, people are pretty lame,,,,,,,,JMHO.
> ...


Congrats, this is probably the douchiest thing I've read on this forum :lol: o-||


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Dutton is my favorite mountain on the planet. I love how easy it is to get away from the crowds. Having said that, I get nervous when new policies are put into motion with little/no public input, regardless of who implements the policies and when/where/why they do so. 

There are a few key issues I see that warrant concern:
1)I, along with Finnegan and a few others, sat on a OHV committee a while back. One of the things that numerous studies have shown is that closing areas off to motor vehicle travel without opening up new areas ALWAYS results in increased illegal motor vehicle activity. 
2)Dutton has far fewer OHV trails than ALL of the surrounding units; Boulder/Monroe/Beaver/Panguitch Lake/Paunsagaunt/Fish Lake. So I question why Dutton is being targeted so heavily, and what is the desired outcome.
3)What happens when such a policy is put in motion w/o the means of enforcement? The Dutton is tough to cover for a Forest Service employee, and I have seen few of them on the unit over the course of an entire fall. So, while the closures will keep honest people out, it will NOT keep the dirt bags out. This means hunters like bucksandbulls dad, who has waited a long time to obtain a LE archery tag, will follow the policy, and be punished for doing so when the dirt bags ignore the closures getting rewarded by having the back country all to themselves. 
4)I haven't looked at the specifics yet as to what areas are actually closed, but I KNOW that bucksandbulls has been hunting Dutton since the late 60's, and is also an astute person, so I will take his opinion very highly. 

Again, my concerns are what is the purpose of the closures on THIS unit, how will the closures be enforced, is there a plan on what to do with the added pressure on the 'legal' areas, and is this policy in affect on neighboring units?


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## Kingfisher (Jul 25, 2008)

wow... sensitive issue. just got back from panguitch and a meeting with usfs on some other issues... they told me that they are in process of closing 40% of all roads on the dixie... that is the target goal. i would assume that other forests will soon be hit with target closures as well. this wont be a dutton/dixie issue alone.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I'll never forget the first time I encountered new wilderness, 20 years ago I drew a deer 
tag in Nevada on the Ruby mountains. They had just changed much of the forest service 
land over to wilderness and closed many,many long time roads. One morning I was trying 
to explore a new canyon were I came to were it had just been closed at the foothill..
There stood an older gentleman beside his parked truck, he went on to tell me how he had 
spent his whole life loving these canyons that were now closed to motor travel....
I saw a tear in his eye when he told me he may never see the "top's" of the mountain again in his life..
20 years ago I made it to them "top's" and hunted hard,,,Not sure I could make it back there today.

Forest service lands were created for ALL Americans to enjoy,,,,
Wilderness and road closures are slowly but surly making some areas only available to a select few...


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I'll never forget the first time I encountered new wilderness, 20 years ago I drew a deer
> tag in Nevada on the Ruby mountains. They had just changed much of the forest service
> land over to wilderness and closed many,many long time roads. One morning I was trying
> to explore a new canyon were I came to were it had just been closed at the foothill..
> ...


moral of the story is...if you want to hunt a certain place, even in your hover-round when you're 90, then invest in it! Buy your own chunk of property! You can build as many roads as you want on it, you can leave your treestand up for a gazillion years, you can shoot deer with an anti-aircraft gun if you want. If you don't make that investment then be prepared to go home sad cause you didn't get to leisurely drive to the top of the world.


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

UTfireman, I am glad you saw some positive actions. When I was on the mountain, the tractors had not made it to the southend, just the flagging, markers and paint indicating closure. On the northend, there are "roads" being closed, not just trails. Of all the area covered on the north, I only saw 1 water relief trench built as road maint. nothing more. Maybe the southend needed more maint.

Pro, thank you for the support. My only intent with this thread is to inform everyone on what I saw personally and what info I had received from the USFS, not to stir up crap. I feel everyone has the right to know what the goverment is doing without proper public input, that affects all users of the land.

Goofy elk, great post, I am glad someone out there is getting the point. We as hunters need to stop thinking so selfishly and look at the bigger picture. There is plenty of room for those of us that want to get away in the remote areas and still let the less physically inclined to do their thing.

Stablebuck, WTH are you talking about, you have been watching way too much Ted Nuggent.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

stablebuck said:


> Is there anything OK about being Fat and Lazy?!?!


 :lol: Well, you're certainly layin it out there. I can't say I really disagree with anything you've posted, I'm just not as outspoken about it. I would guess that if folks are really upset about something you post on the forums, then you're probably just hitting a little too close to home for some of them.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> stablebuck said:
> 
> 
> > Is there anything OK about being Fat and Lazy?!?!
> ...


I think it is a pompous and snotty attitude, and I am in good shape. Not as good as Stable, but I would doubt many on this forum are. I don't think there should be roads in every canyon, animals need places to get away from people, but I don't think every trail should be closed either. Many people for whatever reason out of their control can't access these areas without an ATV. It is great in theory to just say, well then buy some property. How many people in their lifetime will ever have that opportunity, a very, very small percentage. Like I said people don't need to be able to access every canyon and every ridge by ATV, but one every now and again won't kill anyone.

Stable congrats on the award that Fixed has given you, I have had my fair share of douchey posts. :mrgreen:  :lol: This is just my opinion, no offense taken from others view, I am just giving my take on the issue.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

I accept that award gladly...gotta keep trying for that ever elusive humility award!  
It just pisses me off when people are all up in arms over something out of their control happening to PUBLIC land. And if y'all weren't aware we have a democrat administration that is cracking down on environmental policies lately. Biden was just in Yellowstone and Tetons tooting his horn about protecting the environment so you can bet your bottom dollar that over the next couple years if there's a road that isn't supposed to be there then it's gonna have a huge pile of logs at the turn on to it.
Goofy Elk, the amount of public land that we have isn't getting any bigger. The human population isn't getting any smaller. In order to maintain that public land such that it still resembles a forest and not a moto cross track...guess what...access is going to get restricted to less intrusive methods. Unless you've got deep pockets and then you just get your own land like I previously mentioned. Sorry to burst your bubble. But in the words of my favorite chemistry teacher "Smile, it will get worse!"  It's still PUBLIC land for EVERYONE...some people just aren't as passionate about doing what it takes to utilize it.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Hey stableboy,,I live on a 300 acre ranch that elk rut on every year,,Watch them bugle from my deck.
Have horses, ATVs, and hike more canyons than you can count......
Now talking about "utilizing it",,public ground that is, Here's were I'll be this fall.
Starting August 19th Wyoming antelope, Archery elk in the Bookcliffs, Rifle elk on the Wasatch and Manti.
muzzle loader elk on the manti, Rifle deer on the Paunsaugunt,, several cow elk tags to fill........
Then December rolls in and I'll cat hunt for three months..........
I 'll bet I "utilize" public ground more than anyone on this forum, have done it my whole life.
And ya, there's a lot more people using forest service and BLM lands, But closing roads is NOT the answer..


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

I'm not disputing your use of public lands. I value your input on this and not trying to turn this into a weiner measuring contest, but since you've called me a boy and personally chosen to disrespect me I'll just let that go and you can win the weiner measuring contest. I've noticed your posts and I know that you have a lot of first hand experience in the field. So good for you...I'm glad you've been able to enjoy the outdoors as much as you have.
I'd like to see a lot of people experience a quarter of the things you've been able to do.
So what do you suggest for possible solutions? I personally think that closing some roads/trails is a good start...because at least at that point "outlaw outdoorsmen" would be able to be distinguished from the ones that respect the rules and make it happen regardless of the circumstances.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

In my personal observations there is all ready a TON of road less and wilderness areas
were people wanting to get away can go were there is no motorized travel.....
Closing more roads just causes more congestion were access is available....
I'm seeing this happen every were,,,less roads mean MORE people "camped" on top of each other..

Here's a perfect example on the Nebo unit,, Go up the payson "nebo" loop road. HUNDEREDS of
trailers and campers all crammed together ,,all side roads and ATV trails closed.
Right across from black-hawk campground to the west is the Mount Nebo Wilderness, no one hardly
even uses it! I've spent a ton of time on the wilderness part and its unusual to see one single sole..
But you can throw your spotting scope up and count a 100+ trailers on the one road they left open.


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## Troutsman (Aug 13, 2010)

Does anyone have a link to all the road closures throughout the state? I am trying to find something on my area and I am coming up short.. Thanks.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

I think you would have some luck looking at the individual forest service ranger district web pages to find that info...


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Kudos to the forest service. Hillbillies on their motor scooters don't have eminent domain on the mountain. Bart mentioned Dutton and that range is a great example. It has a limited amount of main access and spur roads. In my opinion doing any large amount of closure on Dutton is asinine. To the contrary, IMO I think they could close nearly 1/2 of the roads on the Wasatch and Manti and be about right.

If people are not capable of getting into certain areas because they are to old or not physically fit enough, go somewhere else or take up golf. In the real world, we are all incapable of doing certain things at certain times and it is not the government's or anyone else's responsibility to change regulation or cater to minority problems. With this mentality, eventually we will all be parking on the street to go to the grocery store because the entire parking lot has little blue wheely fellers painted in every stall.


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## Troutsman (Aug 13, 2010)

stablebuck said:


> I think you would have some luck looking at the individual forest service ranger district web pages to find that info...


This worked for me, thank you! One more thing to add to it would be that you need to look at BLM maps as well. The forest service maps do not even have the BLM roads on them. I hunt areas that are both BLM and FS on the same road structure and without both than it is impossible to know where you are going. On a side note, I was taking with one of the FS guys and he said he is on a team that is trying to get the BLM and the FS roads all on the same map regardless which agency has them. He also said that they are not closing all of the roads down and that they are only closing roads that have been on the books for the last 20 years to close but for one reason or another haven't been. I need to do more research on his comment before taking it at face value though.


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## Twitchell (Apr 14, 2010)

What a joke.............


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

You know this is the same type of BS that gets my blood boiling. Pro, Those Dirt Bags you are referring too are you and me, so called hunters! The Government doesn’t give a hoot in He!! what your reason is to be on public land, they plain and simply do not want you their…. And will do anything they can to keep you out!

The dedicated Green- Peacers on this site just turn my stomach. OMG, it’s just fine what they do if it makes it better for me…. 

I could give a flying rats arse about your secluded hunting spot if it take one inch of freedom from the public good by closing access. Some of you simpletons have forgot that Indians, Mormons and Jews all had perfectly legal extermination orders placed on their heads and the first two mentioned where in the good old US of A. Freedom means a hellofalot more than being able to put on your under armor speedo’s and hike back in nature to your secluded hunting spot.

A couple of you on this site need to grow some balls and realize that freedom means We the people!


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## longodds (Apr 29, 2010)

I was down on mount dutton last friday it is true that they have closed a majority of the trails around jones corral the roads at deer creek have been closed at the forest service boundry but you could still go from east hunt creek to west hunt creek. I for one would like to get a lawyer to go after the federal government on these road closures all of the signs say "closed to motorized vehicles to provide a non-motorized hikeing experience" now this to me is dicrimination my wife has become recently disabled and has no opertunity to see this country other than by atv she wants to be there for my elk hunt but I can't just leave her by the atv while I hike up the mountain. If there is anyone else who would like to join the cause or a lawyer out there who would take the case let me know.


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## dchriz01 (Sep 4, 2010)

Yes, they just did all that conservation work in the bottom of Deer Creek so they could shut it down. That's why one of the most remote units in the state just became more remotre. But the Pauns still has roads going everywhere.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

longodds said:


> I was down on mount dutton last friday it is true that they have closed a majority of the trails around jones corral the roads at deer creek have been closed at the forest service boundry but you could still go from east hunt creek to west hunt creek. I for one would like to get a lawyer to go after the federal government on these road closures all of the signs say "closed to motorized vehicles to provide a non-motorized hikeing experience" now this to me is dicrimination my wife has become recently disabled and has no opertunity to see this country other than by atv she wants to be there for my elk hunt but I can't just leave her by the atv while I hike up the mountain. If there is anyone else who would like to join the cause or a lawyer out there who would take the case let me know.


Sorry for your wife's disability, but isn't this a slippery slope in either direction? It seems very affirmative action-esque to make special concessions to people with disabilities in such a broad fashion. What next, handicap placards for ATV's?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> longodds said:
> 
> 
> > I was down on mount dutton last friday it is true that they have closed a majority of the trails around jones corral the roads at deer creek have been closed at the forest service boundry but you could still go from east hunt creek to west hunt creek. I for one would like to get a lawyer to go after the federal government on these road closures all of the signs say "closed to motorized vehicles to provide a non-motorized hikeing experience" now this to me is dicrimination my wife has become recently disabled and has no opertunity to see this country other than by atv she wants to be there for my elk hunt but I can't just leave her by the atv while I hike up the mountain. If there is anyone else who would like to join the cause or a lawyer out there who would take the case let me know.
> ...


Why not? Isn't public land supposed to be for ALL sportsmen, including the mobile impaired? We give them extended dates, why is allowing them into certain areas via OHV's such a radical idea? I know when the OHV committee was meeting a while back this was an issue most involved agreed was a good idea. Is public land just for the fit and able bodied, or is it for everyone?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

What if I am out of shape and can't climb Mt. Olympus? Should I petition to be able to drive my truck to the top?


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

Public land IS for everyone...but how one chooses to use that land is their own choice. This argument could go back and forth all day, but the bottom line is that you can't please everyone. So it's a balance between conserving the natural resources and allowing public use. If your desired means of public use doesn't jive with the conservation of the natural resource then sorry...you'll have to go somewhere else where your idea of public use fits better for everyone. There are places where ATVs are welcome...there are places where they are not. This should be part of your scouting/planning process before you put in for a tag to enable you to have an enjoyable hunt.


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## bigbuckhunter64 (May 6, 2008)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> What if I am out of shape and can't climb Mt. Olympus? Should I petition to be able to drive my truck to the top?


Dude, why you got to talk about me like that? I thought we were friends! :mrgreen:


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