# Bears Ears monument likely



## #1DEER 1-I

http://fox13now.com/2016/12/14/utah...gnate-bears-ears-national-monument-next-week/

I think at this point it would be wise not to use the act. Sounds like it may be coming. If Obama declares several monuments in his closing days it may only throw gas on the fire of the antiquities act and federal land. I think this area needs protection but if it is designated hopefully it is not the 1.9 million that has been asked for.


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## BPturkeys

Perhaps we here in Utah and especially the people in San Juan County are over estimating our importance in the grand scheme of things.
Obama would be acting on behalf of 325,000,000 people that make up the US population, not just the..and look at this number closely...the .85% of the US population that live in Utah, or, the .0046% of the US population(only .05% of the Utah population) that live in San Juan County. Not that we don't count, BUT, this property belongs to the 325,000,000 Americans, not just the very, very tiny % of Americans that live in Utah. 
Now these numbers are even less significant when you take into account that a majority of people even here in Utah favor the establishment of the Bears Ear Monument.


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## OKEE2

I had to chuckle about Obama acting on behalf of the US population. I have Family in San Juan county. They don't want it! They must know something Obama don't. I think the majority of people in Utah have never seen the bears Ears .


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## PBH

This land is your land This land is my land
From California to the New York island;
From the red wood forest to the Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for you and Me.

As I was walking that ribbon of highway,
I saw above me that endless skyway:
I saw below me that golden valley:
This land was made for you and me.

I've roamed and rambled and I followed my footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts;
And all around me a voice was sounding:
This land was made for you and me.

When the sun came shining, and I was strolling,
And the wheat fields waving and the dust clouds rolling,
As the fog was lifting a voice was chanting:
This land was made for you and me.

As I went walking I saw a sign there
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
That side was made for you and me.

In the shadow of the steeple I saw my people,
By the relief office I seen my people;
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking
Is this land made for you and me?

Nobody living can ever stop me,
As I go walking that freedom highway;
Nobody living can ever make me turn back
This land was made for you and me.


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## PBH

OKEE2 said:


> I have Family in San Juan county. They don't want it! They must know something Obama don't. I think the majority of people in Utah have never seen the bears Ears .


This is no different than the Grand Staircase. I also have family in Garfield County. They didn't want the Staircase. They still complain. However, that was a great thing that Clinton did by designating the Staircase. Property values increased. Tourism has increased by a lot! Recreational opportunities increased -- for everyone!

Does your family in San Juan ranch? Are they running cattle on public lands (my land, your land, our land)?

It's ironic that the loudest voices against designating lands are those people that usually look to exploit the land for it's resources. Ranchers, miners, timber, oil / gas....

My family in Garfield County enjoys recreating on the Staircase. They ride ATVs, hike, backpack, hunt, and enjoy all that protected land year round. I don't know what they'd do if that land wasn't accessible because an oil company put up a fence to keep them out. That would be a sad day.

They've also moved away from the cattle industry, because the economics just plain didn't make sense (cents). They have prospered since then by focusing on tourism. Tourism, contrary to popular belief, is a year round thing in Garfield County. If you don't believe me, just visit Ruby's Inn this time of year and see how many foreigners are still up there...

I hope the Bear's Ears is designated. It deserves protection.


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## OKEE2

I find it interesting you have family in Garfield County that are not happy with the Grand staircase and sounds like they still are not happy with it. I'm sure the people of San Juan are aware of Garfield county that's why they are protesting they don't want the same thing to happen. 
My Son is not a rancher but has friends that do. He can see how the peoples life styles will change. I think the loudest voices are the Native Americans . Go figure.


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## Kwalk3

I tend to agree with PBH that a designation is not a bad thing in a lot of cases. Designation of the Bears Ears is probably a good thing. I don't particularly care for the mechanism of designation, i.e. executive order, but that's not a problem unique to Obama or the left.

I'd rather have a place preserved and a few roads shut down, than allow unfettered extraction that forever changes the landscape. Balance is a good thing to keep in mind here.

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/4713970-155/op-ed-bears-ears-monument-runs-counter

Take this op-ed with a grain(or a block) of salt, as it was written by someone affiliated with the Sutherland institute. It seems as if the claims of $9M in losses due to ranching reductions on the Grand Staircase NM in the piece fails to acknowledge any uptick in tourism and the resulting moneys that could offset the supposed ranching losses.

Does anyone have any data that could show what the true economics of the area surrounding the Graind Staircase are today?


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## #1DEER 1-I

OKEE2 said:


> I find it interesting you have family in Garfield County that are not happy with the Grand staircase and sounds like they still are not happy with it. I'm sure the people of San Juan are aware of Garfield county that's why they are protesting they don't want the same thing to happen.
> My Son is not a rancher but has friends that do. He can see how the peoples life styles will change. I think the loudest voices are the Native Americans . Go figure.


OKEE, I think your missing the point. Whether people have visited this land or not, that FEDERAL land does not belong to just the people of San Juan County. This is not a land grab, this is not a sinister plan by Obama to decimate San Juan County. Obama has protected a good portion of land for future generations. Teddy Roosevelt who gave us our amazing national forests and public land we all enjoy for a ton of activities and exploitations was heavily criticized and fought against during his day. I do not agree with Obama on a slew of issues, I don't think all of what he has done has been good, but protecting land for future generation AS WELL AS THIS GENERATION to enjoy, is the most forward thinking any president could do. Think if Roosevelt never existed, 640 million acres would sit there, and in todays world, the majority of Americans could never touch it, never hunt it, never take resources from it, and never enjoy it. I personally want Obama to designate Bears Ears, and I live in Utah as well. The Grand Staircase is an amazing place, I go there several times a year to hunt and look for deer sheds. I am happy it is forever protected and will not be exploited for short term economic gain at the long term cost to those landscapes. The percentage of protected land in this nation doesn't even equate to 10%, so it is hardly out of hand. With a republican congress and president I do worry if Obama pens this in now, it will fuel the reversal of it, and the end of the antiquities act. I also get sick of hearing how this is a midnight monument. Rob Bishop, Chaffetz, and Mike Lee had 6 **** YEARS to protect the area and instead tried to run out the clock on Obama. Obama gave them all the time they needed to pass legislation to protect the area in some way, and they didn't This is not a midnight monument if it happens, it is a president using a law enacted by congress to lawfully protect FEDERAL land that local politicians tried to pretend they were going to protect. Our local politicians had every chance to protect the area and now if Obama designates the monument before he leaves office they and the people of San Juan county have no one to blame but their local politicians who refused to protect the area. They were given ample time and opportunity to protect it, and they're fighting it so hard because they know it will be extremely difficult to undo. All that said, if the monument is rolled back to less than 1.9 million acres, I think that would be good. I think 1.9 million is a bit excessive and I think part could be a monument while other parts could be a conservation area. Some areas do need a monument designation in the area, but probably not all 1.9 million acres.


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## PBH

OKEE2 said:


> I find it interesting you have family in Garfield County that are not happy with the Grand staircase and sounds like they still are not happy with it.


Still not happy with it? To the contrary, they love that desert!! Like I said, they utilize it year round for recreational purposes. They have changed their lifestyle from ranching to tourism, and flourished because of it!

If asked whether they or not they like Clinton, and his designation of the Staircase, they will answer a vehement "No!". On the topic of the State taking over control of Federal lands, my father-in-law is opposed. He does not want to lose any access he currently has on the Staircase. That tells me that he likes the Staircase, and does not want it to go away.


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## Catherder

OKEE2 said:


> I think the loudest voices are the Native Americans . Go figure.


Yep. the Native Americans distrust the State that they will sell off the land if given the chance. Distrust is why there is this controversy. Native Americans distrust the State. Most folks in the "435" distrust the Federal Gubmint in every way possible. Many people outside our State think every Utahn is a Cliven Bundy clone and distrust us. (not realizing that 50% of the State favors designation in most statewide polls I've seen.)

All of these opinions hold shreds of truth in them, but I think it more likely the Israelis and Palestinians get together than for a meaningful compromise to be crafted here. That leaves actions like executive orders. Should Barry do it here? For me, it is hard to say, but, as PBH pointed out, the Staircase has been far from a disaster economically and is a definite plus for hunters, hikers, and recreationalists.


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## wyoming2utah

Kwalk3 said:


> Does anyone have any data that could show what the true economics of the area surrounding the Graind Staircase are today?


When I get a chance, I will look some up for you. But, for now, look at these numbers:
https://www.nbc.gov/pilt/counties.c...yr=2016&Search.x=33&Search.y=10&Search=Search

They reflect the PILT money generated in Utah and give a county by county breakdown. Also, read this on PILT money:
https://www.doi.gov/pilt/


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## Kwalk3

wyoming2utah said:


> When I get a chance, I will look some up for you. But, for now, look at these numbers:
> https://www.nbc.gov/pilt/counties.c...yr=2016&Search.x=33&Search.y=10&Search=Search
> 
> They reflect the PILT money generated in Utah and give a county by county breakdown. Also, read this on PILT money:
> https://www.doi.gov/pilt/


Awesome. Thanks for the links.

Like I said, I am pro designation. Just wanted to make sure I am informed with data instead of just anecdotes and emotion.

I think it's important to discuss the opposing viewpoint too, such as the op-ed in the tribune and have the data to rebut the rhetoric.


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## middlefork

The only thing worse than the monument designation would be be the fine PLI by our representatives.


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## wyoming2utah

Kwalk3 said:


> Awesome. Thanks for the links.
> 
> Like I said, I am pro designation. Just wanted to make sure I am informed with data instead of just anecdotes and emotion.
> 
> I think it's important to discuss the opposing viewpoint too, such as the op-ed in the tribune and have the data to rebut the rhetoric.


Some more:
http://www.usu.edu/ipe/wp-content/u...and-Staircase-Escalante-National-Monument.pdf

https://headwaterseconomics.org/wphw/wp-content/uploads/Escalante.pdf

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.co...mic-value-national-monument-your-backyard5531

Like a lot of things, for every article against such designations and that show negative impacts, you can find one that supports such designations and that show positive impacts.


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## Kwalk3

wyoming2utah said:


> Some more:
> http://www.usu.edu/ipe/wp-content/u...and-Staircase-Escalante-National-Monument.pdf
> 
> https://headwaterseconomics.org/wphw/wp-content/uploads/Escalante.pdf
> 
> http://www.nationalparkstraveler.co...mic-value-national-monument-your-backyard5531
> 
> Like a lot of things, for every article against such designations and that show negative impacts, you can find one that supports such designations and that show positive impacts.


Good Stuff. Thanks.

1st link: Essentially concludes that the designation has had little to no economic effect on the counties, positive or negative. Finishes with an allusion to the non-monetary value of the public lands.

2nd link: Much more firm that while certain extractive and labor jobs have experienced decreases, overall per-capita income is up in the counties. Amenity jobs are also up. Interesting to note that they acknowledge that extraction industry jobs were declining before the designation as well. This is evidenced in a lot of other areas as well where there has been no such designation.

Thanks again for the info.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Good info on GSENM. I think at this point, Obama gave them all the time he could to protect the area. I also think, he may be the last president that gets to use the antiquities act as it is, or we may even see a full end to it in the next 2-4 years whether or whether not Obama pens in more monuments before he leaves office. If Rob Bishop truly thought he could so easily undo this Utah republicans wouldn't be sweating right now. They are going to attack the antiquities act regardless of what happens in the next month in the next congress. I can only hope Trump will veto any of it and honor Roosevelts legacy as he and his son said they would. Lee, Bishop, and other Utah delegation pushed this to the edge putting it off, now we shall see if Obama calls their bluff. They are using threats and whining at this point if the monument is created which is disgraceful. They say they'll sue if this monument is created, I guess tax payer money towards a lawsuit that has no chance of winning is just something we embrace here. The law was passed by congress, and granted the president this power. If it is created it is fully legal and constitutional. I think there are good points both ways,but IMO this will help San Juans economy, not hinder it.


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## Catherder

Kwalk3 said:


> 2nd link: Much more firm that while certain extractive and labor jobs have experienced decreases, overall per-capita income is up in the counties. Amenity jobs are also up. Interesting to note that they acknowledge that extraction industry jobs were declining before the designation as well. This is evidenced in a lot of other areas as well where there has been no such designation.


To many local politicians, the only way to prosperity is through the extraction industries. However, experience has clearly shown that having a diversified economy is the best way to sustain prosperity. Just ask Uintah and Duchesne counties. Just a couple of years ago, they had some of the most robust economies in the state as they took advantage of the oil boom. However, the price of oil plummeted and their economies went into the tank, resulting in real suffering. Extraction and even to some extent, ranching are decidedly cyclical sectors, resulting in boom and bust cycles. If the politicians and citizens of the "435"had a bit more foresight, they would embrace newer sectors like tourism instead of fight it tooth and nail.


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## LostLouisianian

2 million acres is a helluva lot of antiquities


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## wyoming2utah

LostLouisianian said:


> 2 million acres is a helluva lot of antiquities


Yeah, MY antiquities! That is a pretty incredible corner of Utah! Why wouldn't we want to protect it for the future?

What ticks me off about this whole argument are the falsehoods thrown about by the republicans--1) that the government is "stealing" our land. Isn't that already my land? Bears ears is already public land...no private land is being taken. 2) Grazing interests will decline and ranchers will be screwed. The only lost AUMs on the Grand Staircase were willingly sold by ranchers. In fact, had those ranchers not sold out, the number of AUMs on the Grand Staircase would have increased! 3) The local schools will somehow be screwed over and there will not be enough money for the kids. San Juan County needs a reality check--right now, there numbers are already in steep decline and there county is really poor. Why not bring in some different types of jobs and money to help jump start an already struggling economy?

http://www.hcn.org/articles/bears-ears-correcting-of-an-off-base-argument


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## Karl

The Intertribal Coalition sure seems to want it designated as a National Monument.

Their study and executive summary is attached below.

I am guessing the Indians don't want ******* whites cruising all over it hunting or grazing their cattle. Apparently they don't want to hunt or graze on it either. They want it preserved.

The area borders on Glen Canyon and Canyonlands National Park.

It has over a dozen of ancient Native American Indian relic sites scattered within it.

Makes sense therefore to me to designated it as such.

If it were just plain BLM land with nothing on it then not, but it is rich in relics.

Reminds me of what Clinton did before.

You know the GOP is not going to do it once they take over.

So this would be the last chance.

Whether BHO will do it or not we'll see.

http://www.bearsearscoalition.org/proposal-overview/


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## johnnycake

> Teddy Roosevelt who gave us our amazing national forests and public land we all enjoy for a ton of activities and exploitations was heavily criticized and fought against during his day. I do not agree with Obama on a slew of issues, I don't think all of what he has done has been good, but protecting land for future generation AS WELL AS THIS GENERATION to enjoy, is the most forward thinking any president could do.


If you dig into what Roosevelt wrote about his motivations for creating the National Forest Lands, and the text of the withdrawals you will see it was to ensure federal streams of revenue--they are meant to be strategically developed. I'm a huge TR fan, but this is a very common misconception people have. If TR meant for land to be off limits to development, he did National Park or Monument designations. NFS lands were meant for timber, grazing, resource extraction, as well as recreation in a multiple use sustained yield system of management.


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## Karl

johnnycake said:


> If you dig into what Roosevelt wrote about his motivations for creating the National Forest Lands, and the text of the withdrawals you will see it was to ensure federal streams of revenue--they are meant to be strategically developed. I'm a huge TR fan, but this is a very common misconception people have. If TR meant for land to be off limits to development, he did National Park or Monument designations. NFS lands were meant for timber, grazing, resource extraction, as well as recreation in a multiple use sustained yield system of management.


I would not know where to start researching TR's intentions.

I know he was an avid hunter so I presumed that he decided on NFS for good hunting lands, and NP for scenic areas meant to attract large numbers of gawkers and so hunting would be impractical there.

Preservation as in keeping it away from private developers would apply to both.

When timber companies go into an area the first thing they usually do is put up locked gates and post the land as off limits no hunting.

But after they go they will open it up again, and the clear cuts are great fringe habitat for deer and elk. So timber companies are both good and bad regarding access and preservation.

Grazing chases the deer and elk away. Steers with bells on them scare the hell out of the deer.

Oil fields you can kiss goodbye. That land will be ruined forever.


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## OriginalOscar

BPturkeys said:


> Perhaps we here in Utah and especially the people in San Juan County are over estimating our importance in the grand scheme of things.
> Obama would be acting on behalf of 325,000,000 people that make up the US population, not just the..and look at this number closely...the .85% of the US population that live in Utah, or, the .0046% of the US population(only .05% of the Utah population) that live in San Juan County. Not that we don't count, BUT, this property belongs to the 325,000,000 Americans, not just the very, very tiny % of Americans that live in Utah.
> Now these numbers are even less significant when you take into account that a majority of people even here in Utah favor the establishment of the Bears Ear Monument.


Same progressive arrogance demonstrated by Mayor Biskupski deciding what's best for people and you better like it!

Salt Lake Tribune had a great set of pro/con letters last week. One profound comparison was the size of monuments created have increased from under 10,000 acres on average to over 100,000 on average. Bears Ear area is beautiful and remote; however it's not worthy of a monument.


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## #1DEER 1-I

OriginalOscar said:


> Same progressive arrogance demonstrated by Mayor Biskupski deciding what's best for people and you better like it!
> 
> Salt Lake Tribune had a great set of pro/con letters last week. One profound comparison was the size of monuments created have increased from under 10,000 acres on average to over 100,000 on average. Bears Ear area is beautiful and remote; however it's not worthy of a monument.


It absoultly is. The only reason state republicans are so against this is not because it will be bad for San Juan County or the people there. They are against it because they serve oil and gas not the people. As I said before Obama gave Utah representatives 6 years to protect the area. They could have gotten protections through congress and Obama would have signed them. They could have laid out reasonable plans. Instead here we sit, 6 years later, no protections, and Obama gave them tell the very end of his presidency to keep their word and protect the area the way they wanted to. Instead they played politics, attempted to run out the clock, and now if Obama designates it, it's their own **** fault.


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## OriginalOscar

#1DEER 1-I said:


> It absoultly is. The only reason state republicans are so against this is not because it will be bad for San Juan County or the people there. They are against it because they serve oil and gas not the people. As I said before Obama gave Utah representatives 6 years to protect the area. They could have gotten protections through congress and Obama would have signed them. They could have laid out reasonable plans. Instead here we sit, 6 years later, no protections, and Obama gave them tell the very end of his presidency to keep their word and protect the area the way they wanted to. Instead they played politics, attempted to run out the clock, and now if Obama designates it, it's their own **** fault.


What "Not because it will be bad for San Juan" "because they serve oil & gas".

San Juan county is an amazingly beautiful place; unfortunately they don't have the diverse economy we enjoy along the Wasatch Front. Great people do live there and we should provide viable economic opportunities; including resource based industries. Their unemployment rate is double Utah's overall rate.

Bears Ears isn't worthy of increased federal protection. The western edge is already federal wilderness; Dark Canyon.


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## #1DEER 1-I

OriginalOscar said:


> What "Not because it will be bad for San Juan" "because they serve oil & gas".
> 
> San Juan county is an amazingly beautiful place; unfortunately they don't have the diverse economy we enjoy along the Wasatch Front. Great people do live there and we should provide viable economic opportunities; including resource based industries. Their unemployment rate is double Utah's overall rate.
> 
> Bears Ears isn't worthy of increased federal protection. The western edge is already federal wilderness; Dark Canyon.


I agree with you all 1.9 million acres doesn't warrant it, but I don't think it's a bad thing if it is designated either. I could see reasoning to bring the acreage down but there are areas that warrant monument designation. If the monument is scaled down it will be even more beneficial to the area and will bring a lot of tourism while the acreage is not as large. A monument designation will help the economy of the area, if anything they should be welcoming anything that will bring money to San Juan County. You get a diverse economy first by embracing a diverse economy. Fighting any monument designation is not right and does not benefit the area or diversify its economy. Local reps should have crafted a plan that designated monument status for important places while creating conservation areas for the rest of it, then we wouldn't be to this point and it would have been embracing a more diverse economy. Instead they opposed any reasonable protection and if they get a designation it is because they played Obama and he called their bluff.


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## Kingfisher

i believe that a designation is a gross abuse of power. the antiquities act itself is being abused much like the mining act. no such power should be available to one person. the limitations put on arctic gas and oil/mining is also a gross abuse of power. all these decisions should go through a public process including congress.


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## Karl

Kingfisher said:


> i believe that a designation is a gross abuse of power. the antiquities act itself is being abused much like the mining act. no such power should be available to one person. the limitations put on arctic gas and oil/mining is also a gross abuse of power. all these decisions should go through a public process including congress.


Oil and gas -- talk about raping the land -- have you ever been to an oil and gas field? I have -- in Bakersfield. The issue was leasehold cost amortization and intangible drilling cost expense.


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## Karl

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I agree with you all 1.9 million acres doesn't warrant it, but I don't think it's a bad thing if it is designated either. I could see reasoning to bring the acreage down but there are areas that warrant monument designation. If the monument is scaled down it will be even more beneficial to the area and will bring a lot of tourism while the acreage is not as large. A monument designation will help the economy of the area, if anything they should be welcoming anything that will bring money to San Juan County. You get a diverse economy first by embracing a diverse economy. Fighting any monument designation is not right and does not benefit the area or diversify its economy. Local reps should have crafted a plan that designated monument status for important places while creating conservation areas for the rest of it, then we wouldn't be to this point and it would have been embracing a more diverse economy. Instead they opposed any reasonable protection and if they get a designation it is because they played Obama and he called their bluff.


If you look at the boundary design proposed in the Indians' executive summary, it actually looks pretty good. I linked it above in my first post in this thread.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Kingfisher said:


> i believe that a designation is a gross abuse of power. the antiquities act itself is being abused much like the mining act. no such power should be available to one person. the limitations put on arctic gas and oil/mining is also a gross abuse of power. all these decisions should go through a public process including congress.


Believe as you will, this power was granted to the president by congress and has never been erased by any congress since. As for oil, gas and mining, I think a majority of Americans do believe in protecting places and do believe in calling some places off limits. I think all Americans want cleaner air, clean water, and cleaner energy. You had a congress who outwardly said they would basically oppose anything Obama did no matter what it was. It shows a ton now that several republican members of congress are embracing things they criticized Obama for that Trump is now proposing. Politics is never so clear cut as people's values. Congress the last 6 years has been just as bad as Obamas executive orders in undermining the citizens of this country. Bears Ears is actually a prime example of a congress completely unwilling to work with our president. This could have went through congress King, they had 6 years to protect this area, they didn't. If they didn't want a monument they should have done their job rather than just oppose any protection whatsoever. Congress, Rob Bishop, Jason Chaffetz, and Mike Lee drug their feet for 6 years and added no protection whatsoever to an area that deserves it, yet when Obama steps in and protects it the way he sees fit no blame will fall on them...it will all fall on Obama. Congress did nothing for 6 years, and when comes to what may well be the last of the antiquities act I say pull out the pen and do what's right, not what's politically acceptable in some people's views.


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## High Desert Elk

What makes anyone think there is a rich hydrocarbon reservoir under the Bears Ears, Elk Ridge, or Blue Mountain for that matter? Seems like most people are more in favor for the designation to prevent O&G development than anything else.

Should ask the question, why so many acres? What is the justification? You have absolutely nothing to worry about from oil and gas development if the fed gov't doesn't make the acreage available for lease. With all the culturally rich resources, wellpads won't just pop up out of nowhere...


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## wyogoob

Utah

That's the Green River down there:


.


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## #1DEER 1-I

High Desert Elk said:


> What makes anyone think there is a rich hydrocarbon reservoir under the Bears Ears, Elk Ridge, or Blue Mountain for that matter? Seems like most people are more in favor for the designation to prevent O&G development than anything else.
> 
> Should ask the question, why so many acres? What is the justification? You have absolutely nothing to worry about from oil and gas development if the fed gov't doesn't make the acreage available for lease. With all the culturally rich resources, wellpads won't just pop up out of nowhere...


http://www.sltrib.com/home/4554899-155/energy-company-looking-to-strike-oil

I think you could ask the same as to why so many acres are open to drilling or have been drilled already and at such low costs to those drilling it? The amount of land actually protected in this country is next to nothing. If we are talking balance here the player at the bottom of the list is protected and preserved lands. There's far more places that look like wyogoobs map than acres that have a national monument sign when you're entering them. There's resources under Bears Ears HDE make no mistake, and it's one of the reasons Rob Bishop and Miles Lee are fighting a designation so hard. GSENM is open to almost everything except resource extraction (and thank goodness it is) and yet Rob Bishop has mentioned he'd like to see Grand Staircase reversed....... wonder why? Hint: coal.


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## wyogoob

I really don't have a dog in this fight and I'd be the first one to admit I know nothing about the local economy down there, but I'll throw a comment out. 

The wife and I took 1998 off. Changed our jobs, got into the savings account and put our backpacks on and hiked. Walked n walked n walked all over N. America. In the winter/spring we did a lot of Cedar Mesa and a handful of canyons off of lake Powell. Got lost a number of times and made places where there wasn't a foot print and I doubt if anyone had been there with the exception of a sheep herder for years. Wow, what a special place for Native American lore, flora and fauna. We liked the country so much we kept making an annual hike down there until the wife's health went south. Geeze, I'd hate to see that part of it get screwed up. I'm for protecting at least that part of it. Outside of Dark Canyon I don't know much about the rest of it in the proposal. 

I can be a state's rights guy much of the time. So I would rather see the Feds, the President in this case, work together with the state of Utah on an agreement to protect the land, if necessary, and how (who) to manage it if they do protect it. My observation is Utah doesn't have a very good tract record protecting areas like that nor working with the Feds, especially the present Administration.

Good luck.


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## Kingfisher

Like Goob, I don’t have a pony in the race and don’t particularly care if a national monument is created or isn’t – but the process is important to me. I believe that a presidential declaration of 1.9 million acres is a gross abuse of power and an abuse of the antiquities act. It can easily be and is being construed as: 1) reward to various environmental and political groups and 2) retribution to an area/state that opposed a candidate. I believe that such land management decisions should go through a public process and congress so that all sides are equitably represented. A presidential declaration is abuse of power and those that support it are politically and philosophically inclined to the outcome – results by any means is justifiable. They will also scream and pitch a fit when a president of opposing philosophies by fiat or declaration, proscribes actions they oppose – whats good for the goose is good for the gander? No! make it go through the process.
Here is the Antiquities Act. It specifically states that: “the limits of which in all cases shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with proper care and management of the objects to be protected:”
That is the smallest possible area to be protected. 1.9 million acres is not the smallest area. There are many southwest antiquity areas that are appropriately protected – that didn’t take 1.9 million acres. The act was designed to protect areas that faced imminent threat of destruction or degredation. Bears ears is not in any way under an imminent threat from oil, gas or mining. I don’t believe that ATV’s present an unmanageable threat to the area. The biggest threat to the antiquities is from pot hunters not the imagined bogeymen conjured up by most people. The NEPA process is long and cumbersome by design any development of this area is decades or more away from any action if it were ever to occur. Even then the only real threat would be mining if there is any coal there at all – oil and gas could be extracted through horizontal drilling without ever entering the area. Oil and gas? Why – with the recently proven reserves in the Dakotas and most recently in texas – there is no economic incentive to go after unproven areas especially in areas that most certainly would prove expensive and problematic.

American Antiquities Act of 1906

16 USC 431-433
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That any person who shall appropriate, excavate, injure, or destroy any historic or prehistoric ruin or monument, or any object of antiquity, situated on lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States, without the permission of the Secretary of the Department of the Government having jurisdiction over the lands on which said antiquities are situated, shall, upon conviction, be fined in a sum of not more than five hundred dollars or be imprisoned for a period of not more than ninety days, or shall suffer both fine and imprisonment, in the discretion of the court.

Sec. 2. That the President of the United States is hereby authorized, in his discretion, to declare by public proclamation historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric structures, and other objects of historic or scientific interest that are situated upon the lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States to be national monuments, and may reserve as a part thereof parcels of land, the limits of which in all cases shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with proper care and management of the objects to be protected: Provided, That when such objects are situated upon a tract covered by a bona fied unperfected claim or held in private ownership, the tract, or so much thereof as may be necessary for the proper care and management of the object, may be relinquished to the Government, and the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to accept the relinquishment of such tracts in behalf of the Government of the United States.

Sec. 3. That permits for the examination of ruins, the excavation of archaeological sites, and the gathering of objects of antiquity upon the lands under their respective jurisdictions may be granted by the Secretaries of the Interior, Agriculture, and War to institutions which the may deem properly qualified to conduct such examination, excavation, or gathering, subject to such rules and regulation as they may prescribe: Provided, That the examinations, excavations, and gatherings are undertaken for the benefit of reputable museums, universities, colleges, or other recognized scientific or educational institutions, with a view to increasing the knowledge of such objects, and that the gatherings shall be made for permanent preservation in public museums.

Sec. 4. That the Secretaries of the Departments aforesaid shall make and publish from time to time uniform rules and regulations for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of this Act.

Approved, June 8, 1906


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## wyoming2utah

OriginalOscar said:


> What "Not because it will be bad for San Juan" "because they serve oil & gas".
> 
> San Juan county is an amazingly beautiful place; unfortunately they don't have the diverse economy we enjoy along the Wasatch Front. Great people do live there and we should provide viable economic opportunities; including resource based industries. Their unemployment rate is double Utah's overall rate.
> 
> Bears Ears isn't worthy of increased federal protection. The western edge is already federal wilderness; Dark Canyon.


Why will it be bad for San Juan county? I totally believe it will not only jumpstart that economy, but greatly diversify it. The idea that resource-based industries will disappear as a result of monument designation is a myth...though, they may decrease, those industries will remain to an extent. But, the increase in other industries--specifically tourism--will help that economy like it did those surrounding the Grand Staircase. Also, the reality is that extraction based and resource-based industries are already tanking in San Juan county prior to any designation. Remember, those lands are already public!

And, as far as I am concerned, those lands are absolutely worth increased federal protection!


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## #1DEER 1-I

King there's is what's right and wrong. Your principals tell you that a designation by a president like this is wrong and it needs to go through a process, but what is also wrong is the game our local politicians have played the last 8 years. You seem to be ignoring the fact they had 6 years of knowing a monument designation could happen and just kicked the can down the road instead of getting something through congress to protect the areas that need further protection. Obama has given them up until the closing month of his presidency to do something and if he designates it it will protect the area and help San Juans economy. I think it also needs to be understood how our public land in general were created. They were created by the stroke of a pen from Theodore Roosevelt and they were hundreds of millions of acres that also had huge opposition, but he did it anyway to ensure you and I and the future people of this country had land abundant in resources and access. I doubt you look back now, or very few people in America, at him as a bad president or someone who did the wrong thing in creating the public lands this country enjoys that is enjoyed no where else in the world. No, we thank him today, and IMO future generations will thank Obama for protecting resources and land for them, not exploiting it. I tend to agree with you that process is important, but these places wouldn't even be available to you or me today if it weren't for the stroke of a pen from one man who had amazing foresight. I'm not equating Obama to Roosevelt and much of what he has done with the stroke of a pen has been wrong, but I do think he has protected some great places within his presidency and if he adds Bears Ears to that list it will serve as a benefit to this country and state, not a detriment.


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## BPturkeys

No dog in the fight??? This land is NOT just Utah land or San Juan county land, it belongs to all Americans. We all have a "dog in the fight". That is why it is not only necessary but appropriate for the Fed's to manage it and make the final decision. 
Your "dog in the fight" should have as equally loud bark as any "dog in the fight". 
Please, bark as loud as you can!


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## Catherder

A couple more random comments.

1.


High Desert Elk said:


> What makes anyone think there is a rich hydrocarbon reservoir under the Bears Ears, Elk Ridge, or Blue Mountain for that matter? Seems like most people are more in favor for the designation to prevent O&G development than anything else.


As far as I know, there aren't notable oil or mineral reserves under the land in question. However, I would point out that the "extraction card" is played equally often by *opponents* of land protection who see potential loss of real or imaginary jobs and tax revenue from an inability to develop lands in question. It definitely was/is an issue with opponents of the Staircase.

2. I have to agree with Kingfisher that the ideal situation is for it to go through the prescribed process. However, with the current government gridlock, partisanship and distrust (like I talked about earlier), there is no way that *any* compromise is going to be achieved, and that is sad. That said, executive order designations have been held to be constitutional by the courts from Roosevelts time to now, so I don't see things changing greatly. Now, the "R"s get their chance to do it. We'll see what happens next.

3. I suspect the 2 million acres discussed will not be protected by a potential order, but a much lesser amount (under a million acres) will be to give the impression of "compromise". This is assuming Barry does anything at all, which I believe is anything but a sure thing.


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## wyogoob

BPturkeys said:


> No dog in the fight??? This land is NOT just Utah land or San Juan county land, it belongs to all Americans. We all have a "dog in the fight". That is why it is not only necessary but appropriate for the Fed's to manage it and make the final decision.
> Your "dog in the fight" should have as equally loud bark as any "dog in the fight".
> Please, bark as loud as you can!


What I mean is that I'm not a resident of Utah. I'm all in with the "this land is my land" mentality but I'm sensitive to the locals. I'll let them go first. No different than when the "tourists" want to change things in my back yard.

.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Here's the biggest issue here, the process should work, but it doesn't because republicans (especially in Utah) are running as far right as they can with no compromise and democrats are running as far left as they can with no compromise. Bishops PLI gave monument designation to nothing and IMO did not adequately protect areas within the proposed Bears Ears that DO deserve it. In his bill there were also several issues that showed his way, not a compromising nature. I'm all for local input, but Bishop and others take local input, and influence their own opinions onto their constituents and then ignore the fact this is federal land and not San Juan County land and ignore anything that is not local input. A monument designation is probably too far the other way in ignoring local input and giving in to broader input. Neither side is striking a decent balance, but as far as I'm concerned the 1.9 million monument designation by Obama is a better option than Bishops PLI. Bishop had a chance to create a plan that would have been beneficial. Instead he crafted a plan to meet his own needs and political agenda.


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## Kingfisher

like your sentiment goob. perhaps im more cynical. if this was so very important to do, why not 8 years ago? why not 4 years ago? why the last few weeks of a presidency? it all smacks of politics? why 1.9 million? so we can say we compromised to 500,000 acres and now everones happy? why is there a christmas list from environmental organizations put forward for monuments to sympathetic presidents?
ya, teddy did some great things. we are past that or should be. i would have no problem if the designation followed the antiquities act but it doesnt. not even close. what the president is doing is declaring wilderness area at the behest of special interest groups. one person should not have that kind of power. everyone says its public land, then let the public process move forward however slow and cumbersome. there is no emergency to solve here.


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## wyogoob

Kingfisher said:


> like your sentiment goob. perhaps im more cynical. if this was so very important to do, why not 8 years ago? why not 4 years ago? why the last few weeks of a presidency? it all smacks of politics? why 1.9 million? so we can say we compromised to 500,000 acres and now everones happy? why is there a christmas list from environmental organizations put forward for monuments to sympathetic presidents?
> ya, teddy did some great things. we are past that or should be. i would have no problem if the designation followed the antiquities act but it doesnt. not even close. what the president is doing is declaring wilderness area at the behest of special interest groups. one person should not have that kind of power. everyone says its public land, then let the public process move forward however slow and cumbersome. there is no emergency to solve here.


Well yeah, of course it's political. A game played by both sides. I agree, the thing should have been settled years ago.

I have to disagree with you on some other points. We need to be proactive when it comes to protecting places like Cedar Mesa. 47 years in the gas n oil business tells me that.

If I'm taking a side it would be the Native American's side on this one.

.


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## High Desert Elk

wyogoob said:


> If I'm taking a side it would be the Native American's side on this one.
> .


Which side is that and why?


----------



## LostLouisianian

High Desert Elk said:


> Which side is that and why?


Hmmmmmm kemosobee not understand. Yes I am Native American, descended from the Illiniwek tribes....from this dude. 
http://louisianalineage.com/Rouensa.htm

Me no want bears ears to be 1.9 million acres


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## wyogoob

*pay attention*



High Desert Elk said:


> Which side is that and why?


Uh...the Native American Indian side - Whatever they want for Cedar Mesa.

Why? - I guess you'll have to read my other posts.

.


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## OriginalOscar

wyoming2utah said:


> Why will it be bad for San Juan county? I totally believe it will not only jumpstart that economy, but greatly diversify it. The idea that resource-based industries will disappear as a result of monument designation is a myth...though, they may decrease, those industries will remain to an extent. But, the increase in other industries--specifically tourism--will help that economy like it did those surrounding the Grand Staircase. Also, the reality is that extraction based and resource-based industries are already tanking in San Juan county prior to any designation. Remember, those lands are already public!
> 
> And, as far as I am concerned, those lands are absolutely worth increased federal protection!


Tourism jobs are season and low wages. San Juan County is already blessed with strong tourism and this proposal may increase visitation and perhaps a few BLM employees with 1-2 visitors centers. Talk to people in Moab, Bryce Canyon, Torrey or other tourist hot spots what their income looks like Nov-Mar.

Bears Ears wasn't even an area of conflict until it was put forth for protection. I find the native american posture ironic. Drive through the Navajo Reservation and look at the overgrazing and trash.


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## High Desert Elk

wyogoob said:


> Uh...the Native American Indian side - Whatever they want for Cedar Mesa.
> 
> Why? - I guess you'll have to read my other posts.
> 
> .


Well, not much there on this thread other than preserving a heritage, which is already done on several different venues and a wellpad ain't gonna happen like it did 20 yrs ago. Companies don't run amok anymore.

As a resident of northwest NM, I share a commonality with this topic. I have heard Arch's say when staking a wellpad that the four corners region is the richest cultural area in the country as in millons of people at one time. Ever heard of Chaco Canyon or Mesa Verde? Pit houses and cliff dwellings scatter the region. I have seen a well orchestrated balance between development and preservation. It would be nice if people would actually research the process and understand that hydrocarbon development is not the boogie man.

The real driving force to making it a monument is to cater to the anti petroleum industry crowd and a current administration that is sympathetic to that crowd.

Drilling in the Bears Ears region would be a nightmare. I'd hate to see oil and gas come because of the oilfield trash it would bring to Blanding and Monticello...


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## #1DEER 1-I

Designated:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=42708529&nid=148&title=white-house-new-bears-ears-monument-for-utah


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## LostLouisianian

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Designated:
> 
> http://www.ksl.com/?sid=42708529&nid=148&title=white-house-new-bears-ears-monument-for-utah


Temporary


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## Bax*

Just like the Grand Staircase Monument, I think this is a bunch of hogwash. 

Maybe President Obama will follow President Clinton's example and dedicate the monument out of state without ever setting foot on the monument.


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## #1DEER 1-I

LostLouisianian said:


> Temporary


I think how loud Rob Bishop, Mike Lee, and Gary herbert were a week ago over this issue showed just how worried they are about being able to undo it. If they truly believed this would be so easily reversed they wouldn't have been so concerned. They'll try for sure, but I doubt they will be able to completely drop the monument. Resize it, probably, but get rid of it, doubt it. A monument designation isn't the end of the area. It has the potential to help an economy that doesn't have anything going for it, if they embrace it. We shall see.


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## LostLouisianian

#1DEER 1-I said:


> LostLouisianian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Temporary
> 
> 
> 
> I think how loud Rob Bishop, Mike Lee, and Gary herbert were a week ago over this issue showed just how worried they are about being able to undo it. If they truly believed this would be so easily reversed they wouldn't have been so concerned. They'll try for sure, but I doubt they will be able to completely drop the monument. Resize it, probably, but get rid of it, doubt it. A monument designation isn't the end of the area. It has the potential to help an economy that doesn't have anything going for it, if they embrace it. We shall see.
Click to expand...

I don't think people are upset about the monument but the size of it. Clearly overstepping the need.


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## #1DEER 1-I

LostLouisianian said:


> I don't think people are upset about the monument but the size of it. Clearly overstepping the need.


I can agree with you there. I wish our Utah delegation would have, in the 6 years they had to do it passed legislation that would have protected the portions that needed monument designation as a monument, and the rest as a conservation area. Why didn't they get something through congress?Had they done that I think the bill that went through congress probably would have been enough. I think portions of this designation needed monument protection but probabaly not all that was designated. To reverse this designation will take a long while, is probabaly near the bottom of Trumps list, will be tangled in lawsuits from tribal and environmental groups and likely not happen IMO. I think it can be scaled back under the new administration which is fine with me. The difference between this executive decision and others Obama has made is that this is an act passed by congress giving the president this power, I think it's unlikely its temporary as you believe, let alone the fact this isn't at the top of the list of things to do I'm sure. Unless it is deemed this goes beyond the antiquities acts intention it won't be reversed. They can not fund t for a while but that just kicks the can down the road until democrats regain some control and force funding which will happen eventually. Idk LL, my personal opinion is to hope and work towards managment that is beneficial because I feel a full repeal of the monument is very unlikely and Utah representatives Hail Mary a week ago shows they know it will be hard to undo.


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## wyogoob

It's a little big, but hip, hip, hooray.


see: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...mental-legacy/ar-BBxFl9R?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp

_"For the first time, Native American tribes will co-manage a national monument with the federal government.Five tribes that often have been at odds in the past - the Hopi, Navajo, Uintah and Ouray Ute, Ute Mountain Ute and Pueblo of Zuni - will together have responsibility for protecting an area that contains well-preserved remnants of ancestral Pueblo sites dating back more than 3,500 years." 
__
"We have always looked to Bears Ears as a place of refuge, as a place where we can gather herbs and medicinal plants, and a place of prayer and sacredness," Russell Begaye, president of the Navajo Nation, said in a call with reporters Wednesday. "These places - the rocks, the wind, the land - they are living, breathing things that deserve timely and lasting protection."

.
_


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## High Desert Elk

wyogoob said:


> It's a little big, but hip, hip, hooray.
> 
> 
> see: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...mental-legacy/ar-BBxFl9R?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
> 
> _"For the first time, Native American tribes will co-manage a national monument with the federal government.Five tribes that often have been at odds in the past - the Hopi, Navajo, Uintah and Ouray Ute, Ute Mountain Ute and Pueblo of Zuni - will together have responsibility for protecting an area that contains well-preserved remnants of ancestral Pueblo sites dating back more than 3,500 years."
> __
> "We have always looked to Bears Ears as a place of refuge, as a place where we can gather herbs and medicinal plants, and a place of prayer and sacredness," Russell Begaye, president of the Navajo Nation, said in a call with reporters Wednesday. "These places - the rocks, the wind, the land - they are living, breathing things that deserve timely and lasting protection."
> 
> .
> _


I live a stone's throw from most all of these tribes. People have no idea what this means.


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## DallanC

wyogoob said:


> _as a place where we can gather herbs and medicinal plants,
> _


Its illegal to remove so much as a pebble, flower or pine cone from a National Monument. Thats what some of the local indian groups against this understood... that by creating a National Monument they would actually be restricting some native american activities they currently practice.

-DallanC


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## Clarq

High Desert Elk said:


> I live a stone's throw from most all of these tribes. People have no idea what this means.


Yeah, I really don't have any idea what this means. Care to fill us in? As far as I can tell, even the natives didn't really agree on whether a monument was a good idea.


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## High Desert Elk

What it means is tribes now have control over some aspects of public land to use as they see necessary. They can now close off portions of the monument because it is sacred to them. Through presidential authority, the establishment of religion has just been created federally that you and I now have to adhere to. Many many years living among these stated tribes has one common theme among some: "getting back the land that was taken from us".

As far as removal of flora, fauna, and geology from a monument, well, a provision will be granted to them to do so for the free exercise of religion that you won't get to do because you are not of their faith - similar to the ownership of eagle feathers.

Same thing as what we now see with the Valles Caldera and the Jemez Pueblo.

This was not driven by protecting a serene and awe inspiring view nor to bring an economic boom to the area, President Begaye stated what really drove this. Most religious denominations purchase land that has meaning to them. They don't ask a liberal president to give it to them.

Is it important to preserve a history and heritage? Absolutely! But not at this kind of expense.


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## wyogoob

DallanC said:


> Its illegal to remove so much as a pebble, flower or pine cone from a National Monument. Thats what some of the local indian groups against this understood... that by creating a National Monument they would actually be restricting some native american activities they currently practice.
> 
> -DallanC


Yeah cool huh.

.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Well HDE, none of Utahs delegation was very interested in protecting the areas that needed it much the last six years. They sat in their corner, pouted, and did nothing. I get sick of it being called a midnight monument. Utah reps. In congress had 6 years to work this out and it was not designated until the very end of Obamas presidency, they were given time. While I believe the acreage could have been smaller, congress didn't care to much to conservatively protect the area and now it's a monument because of it. You can dislike the acreage, you can dislike the way it was done, but there are areas in this designation that deserves protection and while I don't think Obama fully understands the area I don't think this was a sinister move either.


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## OriginalOscar

wyogoob said:


> It's a little big, but hip, hip, hooray.
> 
> 
> see: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...mental-legacy/ar-BBxFl9R?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
> 
> _"For the first time, Native American tribes will co-manage a national monument with the federal government.Five tribes that often have been at odds in the past - the Hopi, Navajo, Uintah and Ouray Ute, Ute Mountain Ute and Pueblo of Zuni - will together have responsibility for protecting an area that contains well-preserved remnants of ancestral Pueblo sites dating back more than 3,500 years."
> __
> "We have always looked to Bears Ears as a place of refuge, as a place where we can gather herbs and medicinal plants, and a place of prayer and sacredness," Russell Begaye, president of the Navajo Nation, said in a call with reporters Wednesday. "These places - the rocks, the wind, the land - they are living, breathing things that deserve timely and lasting protection."
> 
> .
> _


Great idea; trash it like their reservations. Overgraze, trash and hopefully they get native hunting/fishing rights so they can kills everything.

Perhaps next week Prez O will declare it the Palestinian state.


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## Springville Shooter

All these petty acts by the fledgling out-goers just serve to embolden the party that will control the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches for the foreseeable future. 

Hopefully This little sucker punch will motivate those who have been elected in landslide fashion to finally do as their constituency desires with no regard for the opposition. 
We live in a fundamentally divided country where compromise is an antiquated notion that serves no one. With every action there will be distinct winners, and distinct losers. Time for the Repubs to shed the loser mentality and get in the drivers seat where they have been put by the people. No need to ask for permission, you already have it. Now get to work!!----SS


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## High Desert Elk

#1DEER, ask yourself who cooked up the footprint and why. What purpose does it serve? Instead of just getting to use the land, now you have to pay to use it more than what you already did.

Don't think for a second this preserves your non-tribal right to use this land as you once did. Others traditions have just been affected by this more than you may know...


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## LostLouisianian

Since I am descended from Native Americans can I use this area as my own private hunting preserve now?


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## #1DEER 1-I

Springville Shooter said:


> All these petty acts by the fledgling out-goers just serve to embolden the party that will control the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches for the foreseeable future.
> 
> Hopefully This little sucker punch will motivate those who have been elected in landslide fashion to finally do as their constituency desires with no regard for the opposition.
> We live in a fundamentally divided country where compromise is an antiquated notion that serves no one. With every action there will be distinct winners, and distinct losers. Time for the Repubs to shed the loser mentality and getSS in the drivers seat where they have been put by the people. No need to ask for permission, you already have it. Now get to work!!----SS


SS, I'm not sure this is sarcasm or not. The problem is exactly what you've stated, when one party gets into power they take off running in whatever direction their party stands, then the pendulum swings even farther back the other way. I think people who hope for Trump to take off running right need to take a step back and look at where we are at here. Obama went way to far left, too fast and he is paying the price for it by losing congress and the presidency for his party. What to consider here is in 2 and 4 years down the road if Trump takes the torch and starts running the other direction that pendulum is going to swing back harder and farther than ever before. Moderation is the path forward not extremism. You say they got the votes so they have permission, I tend to not agree. The most beatable candidate in history stood on the other side of the ballot as president this year, and as crooked as that candidate was she still got nearly 3 million more Americans to vote for her. That's the part that should scare anyone who doesn't like Obamas ideals, including me. If Trump attempts to reverse everything done, doesn't work somewhere in the middle, and congress takes off running the other direction they'll hit a wall in 2 or 4 years bigger than the one Trump isn't going to build. We can't keep dividing and sucker punching each other in this country. I think here Obama did what he thought was right, doesn't mean you have to agree, doesn't even mean I fully agree with the size of it. The division is real, and I'm afraid it's about to get a whole lot worse. I don't want to see this pendulum swing back hard in 4 years, or they're be hell to pay and Obamas done so much there's no way it's all getting undone in 4 years so let's hope for the long game not the quick sucker punch game that's going to end up leaving us in worse shape.


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## #1DEER 1-I

High Desert Elk said:


> #1DEER, ask yourself who cooked up the footprint and why. What purpose does it serve? Instead of just getting to use the land, now you have to pay to use it more than what you already did.
> 
> Don't think for a second this preserves your non-tribal right to use this land as you once did. Others traditions have just been affected by this more than you may know...


I get what you're saying, I just think without a doubt the area has things that should be protected for the long haul. 1.3 million acres? I want it protected but not off limits. My sincere hope is this helps San Juan counties economy and brings tourism dollars there. I also hope it does not end up barring access to the general public. I think if set up like Grand Staircase it will be great for the area, if it is pushed towards the brinks of limiting access and use it will be a disappointment for sure. Again I think it will get scaled back under the new administration but it's going to take a lot to reverse the designation and that's why letting you're voice be heard on access and use of the area is important. A monument should be a good thing and beneficial to all those involved, but like most-if not all- things in this country it is too politicized. The antiquities act is important, but probably shouldn't be used to designate so much land at once and hopefully the upcoming administration can tweak the law and not trash it all together. Personally idk if this was a good move by Obama, because I fear the antiquities act, LWCF, and federal lands which were already under attack from most republicans, just got the heat turned up on them, and even worse I doubt he's done designating monuments. This move doesn't help the land transfer issues we are facing and it doesn't serve to help the LWCF get renewed or keep the antiquities act for future use. If the monument gets reversed it won't hurt my feelings, I just hope the areas that need protection get it and can bring economic benefit to the San Juan area-again that could have been done far under 1.3 million acres.


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## High Desert Elk

There is already an economic footprint of tourism in the area. Visit Blanding and you'll see it. People interested in these kinds of things already travel there. Half of my DNA is from that very town. Yeah, I'm not happy about it. This has nothing to do with what obama's moral compass directed him to do. All political, nothing more, nothing less.

Nearly everywhere you go in the Four Corners region you can see remnants of a cliff dwelling, pit house, or some other structure. Along the river in Montezuma Creek are cliff dwellings. Navajos did not do that. They have no more claim than anyone else. 

Give them an inch and billions of acres could be designated.


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## High Desert Elk

LostLouisianian said:


> Since I am descended from Native Americans can I use this area as my own private hunting preserve now?


Depends, if it ain't one of the Big 5 probably not. I doubt my Cherokee blood would allow it for me.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

High Desert Elk said:


> There is already an economic footprint of tourism in the area. Visit Blanding and you'll see it. People interested in these kinds of things already travel there. Half of my DNA is from that very town. Yeah, I'm not happy about it. This has nothing to do with what obama's moral compass directed him to do. All political, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> Nearly everywhere you go in the Four Corners region you can see remnants of a cliff dwelling, pit house, or some other structure. Along the river in Montezuma Creek are cliff dwellings. Navajos did not do that. They have no more claim than anyone else.
> 
> Give them an inch and billions of acres could be designated.


I understand your perspective I guess I'm just more willing to give the benefit of the doubt that this was done out of what our president thought was right, not out of political acclaim. I think in Obamas mind hes always doing the right thing or what he thinks is right. Personally I don't think this will have the giant impact everyone believes. I can't for sure say it wont, and those who are against it can't say for sure it will until more details on the monument are released. Who knows, it may be scaled back significantly. Glad to hear your perspective HDE, I think both sides played politics on this issue and do on all federal land issues. Rob Bishop and Mike Lee don't have any more or less political decision making than Obama and they do things for their politically convenientcy as well. As BLM ground it was probably all safe enough. Its done now, and ensuring a good plan is set in place is what needs to be focused on by sportsmen, locals, and the public that does not bar our access or ability to recreate on this land.


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## LostLouisianian

High Desert Elk said:


> Depends, if it ain't one of the Big 5 probably not. I doubt my Cherokee blood would allow it for me.


Crap, maybe I could get my tribe to create a reciprocal agreement with one of the those 5. My wife and I both have descended from Native Americans and hers is Creek so from back east too...so I guess our kids and grandkids have two tribes mixed in their blood....oh well it was worth a shot.


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## wyogoob

LostLouisianian said:


> Since I am descended from Native Americans can I use this area as my own private hunting preserve now?


Yes, please do. As-a-matter-of-fact I'm willing to take ya down there and drop ya off.

.


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## middlefork

So who is going to fund this operation? Does it just come out of the already underfunded BLM budget or does Congress have to specifically fund it? My guess is there won't be much enforcement for awhile anyway.
On the good side now Utah can spend a little of that 14 million private lands war chest to fight this designation.


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## Springville Shooter

If antiquities protection was really the goal here, Then we really went the wrong way. Discreet measures should have been worked through the BLM management already responsible for the land. Designating a monument will NOT preserve the area. It will likely create a staff of people eager to justify their positions, a large visitors center, a bunch of public toilets, several improved trails and roads, the installation of gas, power, water, and telecommunication facilities, a big fancy entrance gate, and possibly some concessions for the ravished visitors. The best way to truly protect something is to keep it out of the lime light. 

Obama couldn't care less about antiquities, Native Americans, or the environment. This was just a payback to all the rascally Utah delegates who have been a thorn in his side and all the 'reprobates' that keep electing them.

When I go to the national parks and monuments, it feels much the same as Disneyland. I'll pass. 

PS......my buddy did just score a mega-lucrative contract to provide food concessions at a local public land attraction. Maybe he can expand his operation to include the Bears Ears.------SS


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## wyogoob

Springville Shooter said:


> ..............................
> 
> PS......my buddy did just score a mega-lucrative contract to provide food concessions at a local public land attraction. Maybe he can expand his operation to include the Bears Ears.------SS


I hope so. I've hiked a lot of Cedar Mesa, some other parts of the Bears Ears thingie. Rough country and not much water. At my age if I'm going to continue hiking up there I'm hoping the Indians put up some mega-lucrative 7-11s up in the tops of the drainages.

.


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## wyogoob

*I've been a ravished vistor in Bears Ears*



Springville Shooter said:


> If antiquities protection was really the goal here, Then we really went the wrong way. Discreet measures should have been worked through the BLM management already responsible for the land. Designating a monument will NOT preserve the area. It will likely create a staff of people eager to justify their positions, a large visitors center, a bunch of public toilets, several improved trails and roads, the installation of gas, power, water, and telecommunication facilities, a big fancy entrance gate, and possibly some concessions for the ravished visitors. The best way to truly protect something is to keep it out of the lime light. WOW, Looks like a lot of jobs are going to be created...uh waitaminute, forget jobs, this is an outdoor forum so whatever it takes to keep those Hydrocarbon Hooligans outta here.
> 
> Obama couldn't care less about antiquities, Native Americans, or the environment. This was just a payback to all the rascally Utah delegates who have been a thorn in his side and all the 'reprobates' that keep electing them. Cool huh.
> 
> When I go to the national parks and monuments, it feels much the same as Disneyland. I'll pass. Yeah, me too. The Wyoming Range will be that way soon.
> 
> PS......my buddy did just score a mega-lucrative contract to provide food concessions at a local public land attraction. Maybe he can expand his operation to include the Bears Ears.------SS You have buddies?


See red.


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## High Desert Elk

"Hydrocarbon Hooligans"

Don't forget about the hydroelectric and coal fired power, stupid Lake Powell, APS, and PNM.

You can see their nastiness from miles away. Oh wait, you have to be here all the time to know what I'm talking about.


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## middlefork

SS I agree that it will bring more notice and visitors to the area although access is more difficult than say Zion which is its own limiting factor. Just the ferry schedule at Halls Crossing will limit the people. It really is out in the middle of nowhere for people on a grand tour.
Like I've said before the only thing worse than the monument would have been the PLI.


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## MuscleWhitefish

SFW said:


> Fellow SFW Members,
> 
> Over the last 30 years, we sportsmen have worked hard alongside the Utah Division of Wildlife to restore populations of elk, desert bighorn sheep, mule deer, wild turkey, black bear, cougar and other species in the region now encompassed by the newly designated Bears Ears Monument. These game species are now thriving and provide some of the highest quality hunting opportunities found in all of North America.
> 
> Fair Point
> 
> The creation of this monument was dictated by lame duck President Obama as he vacationed in Hawaii and is a prime example of why the majority of the people in 3,081 counties across America voted for Donald Trump while only a mere 300 counties voted for Hillary Clinton. Listen to the voice of the local people who love, make a living from and care so personally for the lands and natural resources in our own back yard - far more so than any outsider groups funded in LA or New York. And for the few who might still wonder why Donald Trump, Jr. was asked to speak at the 2016 Western Hunting and Conservation Expo - need more be said?
> 
> This is absolute madness. SFW goes full SJW. Obama was a lame duck, because he couldn't work well with republicans and republicans could not work well with him. Lots of people vacation in Hawaii and very few people own a massive business estate as Donald. The logic a majority of the counties is the reason, is beyond me. Clinton won the popular vote and the supporters go through great mental gymnastics to try and state that she won the election. Doing the same thing with counties is as equally stupid. He won the electoral college and that is all you have to say. Outsider group funded? Where do most oil companies come from, Texas? A lot of mining companies are owned by businesses outside of the US. You can't state that one group has special interests, when you have special interests in the other group. DTJ speaking at the hunting expo? He is maybe a C or D list celebrity. Not that great. I say all these things as someone who did vote for Donald.
> 
> SFW recognizes the designation of the Bears Ears Monument as a serious threat to Utahns' and the native people of the region's way of life and ability to live and pursue traditions that have been enjoyed by their ancestors for centuries.
> 
> Making a threat of things that will happen without providing any information to explain why this would be a bad thing. Just a blanket statement.
> 
> SFW and its Founder Don Peay will work with Utah Governor Herbert, the entire Utah delegation, the Trump Administration, Big Game Forever and other sportsmen networks across America to do all that is possible to reverse and/or limit the effects of the Bears Ears Monument, including:
> 
> 
> Reverse the designation and maintain the lands as "multiple use"
> Dramatically reduce the acreage in official monument designations
> Ensure that wildlife habitat restoration, state wildlife management of all species, including transplants and predator control, and hunting and fishing and trapping are protected as part of this unique place thus protecting sportsmen dollars that have been the catalyst for restoring the region to its current magnificent condition.
> How would the designation prevent any of the things from happening. The grand staircase still allows hunting.
> 
> We will work until we achieve the best possible for sportsmen and all Utahns! Stay tuned for updates in early 2017.
> 
> .


 See Red

Man, SFW has drank from the Texas cool aid. All things of government, bad. All things of state, government good.


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## wyogoob

High Desert Elk said:


> "Hydrocarbon Hooligans"
> 
> Don't forget about the hydroelectric and coal fired power, stupid Lake Powell, APS, and PNM.
> 
> You can see their nastiness from miles away. Oh wait, you have to be here all the time to know what I'm talking about.


Well yeah

Hey, what's "APS" and "PNM". I'm not there all the time to know what you are talking about.

.


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## wyogoob

*top of the page*



MuscleWhitefish said:


> See Red
> 
> Man, SFW has drank from the Texas cool aid. All things of government, bad. All things of state, government good.


Waitaminute, I'm starting to see a pattern here.

.


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## wyogoob

*What's a 'reprobates'*



High Desert Elk said:


> "Hydrocarbon Hooligans"
> 
> ......................................................


Is that name-calling? I wanted to get some sophomoric name-calling in before the lock.

.


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## Springville Shooter

Wasn't Hooligan that goofy guy on the island?----SS


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## MuscleWhitefish

wyogoob said:


> Waitaminute, I'm starting to see a pattern here.
> 
> .


Rut Row.

I better use lightish red.


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## LostLouisianian

Springville Shooter said:


> Wasn't Hooligan that goofy guy on the island?----SS


No I think he was the Nazi sergeant on Hogan's Hero's ;-)


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## MuscleWhitefish

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Rut Row.
> 
> I better use lightish red.


Source for lightish red and not pink.


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## High Desert Elk

APS is Arizona Public Service. PNM is Public Service of New Mexico. Both are coal fired power plants less than 100 miles straight shot and you can see the low hanging brownish-orangish-rustish haze from Abajo Peak [and Bears Ears], particularly in winter.

While on the topic of local economy, they payout wwaaay more in gross receipts taxes than tourism ever dreamed. But, it comes with a price...


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## Springville Shooter

wyogoob said:


> Is that name-calling? I wanted to get some sophomoric name-calling in before the lock.
> 
> .


Dang, 9 pages before the first lock threat. We're getting soft on the UWN. 'Hydrocarbon Hooligans' is an instant classic and will be added to the back pages of my 'Old Goobs' recipe book. -----SS


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## #1DEER 1-I

I thought pieces of SFWs reaction letter were disgusting. Proud that they are the only major sportsmen organization I do not support. Lame duck? You realize he's you're president as well, just like Trump is also the melting snowflakes president. Guess you gotta ride the politicans coat tales hard in this state to keep the expo permits and fund your organization almost solely off the public permits you take from the public and pocket a big pot of money that doesn't belongs to all citizens of this state. Also, they mention the state DWR and themselves but leave out the federal agencies who also helped complete many of these projects and the federal grants that made them possible. But hey it's SFW and they are sold responsible for any success of wildlife in Utah and you better praise them for it.

SS, does your signature infer that you are now for the transfer of public land?


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## Springville Shooter

SS, does your signature infer that you are now for the transfer of public land?[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm certainly not for governance without representation......which is what we continually get from the Feds.......Maybe we should give someone else a shot? Can't be worse than the unjustified middle finger we just got from the punisher-in-chief.

So now we are left to 'hope' that the Celebrity Apprentice guy will 'fix' everything? Pardon my skepticism.----SS


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## OriginalOscar

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I thought pieces of SFWs reaction letter were disgusting. Proud that they are the only major sportsmen organization I do not support. Lame duck? You realize he's you're president as well, just like Trump is also the melting snowflakes president. Guess you gotta ride the politicans coat tales hard in this state to keep the expo permits and fund your organization almost solely off the public permits you take from the public and pocket a big pot of money that doesn't belongs to all citizens of this state. Also, they mention the state DWR and themselves but leave out the federal agencies who also helped complete many of these projects and the federal grants that made them possible. But hey it's SFW and they are sold responsible for any success of wildlife in Utah and you better praise them for it.
> 
> SS, does your signature infer that you are now for the transfer of public land?


You do know RMEF works with locals on their initiatives? Probably should change to use Sierra Club or SUWA logo!


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## OriginalOscar

Didn't need 1.3M acres

Page 7 https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R41330.pdf


> Monument Size
> In establishing a national monument, the President is required by the Antiquities Act to reserve
> "the smallest area compatible with the proper care and management of the objects to be
> protected."25


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## #1DEER 1-I

Springville Shooter said:


> SS, does your signature infer that you are now for the transfer of public land?


Well, I'm certainly not for governance without representation......which is what we continually get from the Feds.......Maybe we should give someone else a shot? Can't be worse than the unjustified middle finger we just got from the punisher-in-chief.

So now we are left to 'hope' that the Celebrity Apprentice guy will 'fix' everything? Pardon my skepticism.----SS[/QUOTE]

SS, step back and breathe a little, you're acting like me. I think by representation you mean this didn't go the way you wanted, but there was a lot of support for this monument as well. In fact petitions for the monument, dwarfed petitions against it. That being said, I get what representation you speak of, Utah republicans and locals. My issue as I've stated is that Utah reps. knew a monument designation was a likely scenario and had 6 years to represent and pass legislation that ironed this out, the PLI was not that and the can was kicked down the road to run out the clock. That's also playing politics and not giving voice to others who were in favor of further protections in some areas. If a decent bill would have went through congress without political games in it that Bishop installed, a monument most likely would have been avoided. I also think it is good that around 600,000 acres environmental groups were asking for were not designated. The map almost matches the PLIs boundaries. I think if Obama would have designated this years ago it would have been more of a slap in the face, but he waited until Utah reps did absolutely nothing up until the last minute they could before designating it. I also think this monument will be the main target to be scaled back in the upcoming administration and I think you'll see it shrink in size as little of faith I have in the apprentice guy too. It will be congress that can do it, Trump won't have the power to unilaterally reverse the designation or shrink it, congress will. SS, as frustrated as you seem take another deep breath because I wouldn't be surprised if he's not done with monuments. The Grand Canyon area is another area being pushed for by environmental groups and actually has bigger support and petitions than Bears Ears did.The next congress can shrink and fix some of these issues as well as work on managment of them. I think you're short term frustration on an outgoing president with his pen is blurring your vision. If the state of Utah gets these lands we know their fate and they are no better. We can only manage land and change managment on lands that we even have to worry about. I personally don't want all the Utah republicans making simple votes with no threat of being voted out choosing to sale and barrage our public lands and wildlife with industry. Dont let 1.35 million lose us 600 million, it's not much of a bargain.


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## #1DEER 1-I

OriginalOscar said:


> You do know RMEF works with locals on their initiatives? Probably should change to use Sierra Club or SUWA logo!


Yes I realize that, and my point was not to criticize the DWR I think they do some great work and have some great employees, however BLM and FS employees also assist and make these things happen and so does federal grant money. My point is SFW went all in one direction in that letter and act as though they are why we have wildlife. SFW does some good things but they are in bed with the legislature, crony as can be, and essentially run an organization that only exist off the public permits they sell.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Also SS, I know it's probabaly not much consolation but only 14% of federal land is considered protected or not multiple use, that percentage includes wilderness. That means 86% of federal land is still multiple use, personally I don't think that percentage is too bad. However it's really starting to add up in Southeastern Utah.


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## Springville Shooter

Springville Shooter said:


> If antiquities protection was really the goal here, Then we really went the wrong way. Discreet measures should have been worked through the BLM management already responsible for the land. Designating a monument will NOT preserve the area. It will likely create a staff of people eager to justify their positions, a large visitors center, a bunch of public toilets, several improved trails and roads, the installation of gas, power, water, and telecommunication facilities, a big fancy entrance gate, and possibly some concessions for the ravished visitors. The best way to truly protect something is to keep it out of the lime light.
> 
> Obama couldn't care less about antiquities, Native Americans, or the environment. This was just a payback to all the rascally Utah delegates who have been a thorn in his side and all the 'reprobates' that keep electing them.
> 
> When I go to the national parks and monuments, it feels much the same as Disneyland. I'll pass.
> 
> PS......my buddy did just score a mega-lucrative contract to provide food concessions at a local public land attraction. Maybe he can expand his operation to include the Bears Ears.------SS


LoL....I said ravished visitors, I meant ravenous visitors........although there does appear to be some ravishing going on here. Yes, I attended public schools.:shock:------SS


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## wyogoob

High Desert Elk said:


> APS is Arizona Public Service. PNM is Public Service of New Mexico. Both are coal fired power plants less than 100 miles straight shot and you can see the low hanging brownish-orangish-rustish haze from Abajo Peak [and Bears Ears], particularly in winter.
> 
> While on the topic of local economy, they payout wwaaay more in gross receipts taxes than tourism ever dreamed. But, it comes with a price...


thanks


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## OriginalOscar

High Desert Elk said:


> APS is Arizona Public Service. PNM is Public Service of New Mexico. Both are coal fired power plants less than 100 miles straight shot and you can see the low hanging brownish-orangish-rustish haze from Abajo Peak [and Bears Ears], particularly in winter.
> 
> While on the topic of local economy, they payout wwaaay more in gross receipts taxes than tourism ever dreamed. But, it comes with a price...


Excellent point. I'd love to see the EIS on one power plant vs Grand Staircase.


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## High Desert Elk

An EIS for a coal fired power plant built today would need $150/MWhr to pay for itself with the advanced quality emissions controls systems it would need - way too uneconomic.

I do not believe drilling in the Bear's Ears area was ever a threat today. The dry hole markers tell me that. Attached is one such marker we ran across elk hunting last Friday just east of the Bears Ears a couple miles or so. These were drilled by Pan American Energy back in the late 60's/early 70's. If there was something there, it would be in production mode already.


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## High Desert Elk

http://www.daily-times.com/story/ne...s-monument-could-spur-local-tourism/96512294/

A local article, interesting take toward the end...


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