# EPA Again Denies [Lead] Ammo Ban Petition



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

NRAila said:


> The CBD has threatened to file a lawsuit against the EPA for rejecting its petition. (A U.S. district court in Washington, D.C. dismissed a follow-up lawsuit to compel EPA action on the earlier petition because the CBD's lawyers missed their filing deadline.) In 2009, a federal judge dismissed a similar suit that CBD filed against the U.S. Bureau of Land Management, demanding among other things that the bureau prohibit the use of lead ammunition in the Arizona Strip, a prime hunting area in the northwest corner of the state. In a double victory for hunters, NRA's motion to intervene as a defendant in that case, on behalf of its members, was approved and published in the Federal Rules Decision Reporter, establishing that organizations with clear interests in hunting and recreational shooting, such as NRA, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, and Safari Club International, can participate in lawsuits filed by so-called environmental groups against state and federal natural resource, game and land management agencies.


http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2012/epa-again-denies-ammo-ban-petition.aspx?s=&st=&ps=

What are your thoughts on this topic?

I can honestly see the argument against lead ammo (not that I like it) being somewhat viable. However, I dont see it coming to fruition any time soon. Obviously there has been some foresight by various bullet manufacturers to move to lead-free projectiles which may be a good insurance to improve upon the technology before they may potentially be forced into lead-free only projectiles, but I wonder if this ideal will ever take hold?

Additionally, I wonder what the economic ramifications would be to the lead industry as well as the bullet manufacturing industry? It would be interesting to me to learn what percentage of lead sales are accounted for by bullet manufacturers to see if it would cause meaningful impact upon the lead industry. Obviously this would necessitate substitute materials for copper composites, which could mitigate damages caused to the lead industry. But would that be enough compensation to justify the loss of lead sales?

I may be reading into this too much, but the article got me thinking....


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I'll go first. (you should never go first on any forum)

At 60 I don't care. When I was 30 and they took our lead shot away for waterfowl it was the end of the world. Copper is fine. Sooner or later lead will be a outlawed in fishing tackle, ammo, even batteries.

Lead is bad. For 40 years I put lead split shot on my fishing line with my teeth. Just look at me; a poster child for lead poisoning.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

You are right Goob. Lead is bad and that is why I agree that the argument is viable. There are so many bad things associated with lead that it is hard to justify its continued use.

My personal complaint is that this will likely mean an increase in cost for shooting supplies. But that will likely increase regardless of whether or not lead is banned in the near future.

Side thought: I wonder how often wildlife on land pick up lead from a bullet and eat it? I could see it being more common with fish and waterfowl, but I wonder if lead consumption is as common with animals on land?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

They claim that the reason for the demise of the California Condor in Northern Arizona, Southern Utah, and Southern Nevada is lead ammunition. The claim is that when the bullet fragments from lead is left in the entrails of the animals which the condors eat and then get lead poisoning. Now just how true this is I don't know since I don't do the sampling or the necropsy on the dead birds to see just what they died of. But from what I have read it is quite common for them to ingest lead but weather it comes from lead hunting bullets or natural mineral deposits that is the big question in my mind. 

California has seen fit that lead is a problem (who would of guessed it) and has banned all lead ammunition in the state, and where California goes so goes other states sooner or later.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Yes, Critter is all over it.

The lead thing is a pain in the rear. The debate started in Wisconsin's Horicon Marsh many years ago; lead poisoning in waterfowl caused large die-offs of ducks and followed by Bald Eagles tipping over. In some ways I think we've gone a little too far. At work we have get a lead abatement crew to buff or burn off a quarter-sized patch of lead-based paint. 

Wyoming was the last state to ban lead. The Feds threatened to take away Wyoming's Pittman-Robertson dollars and we rolled over. 

The important part of the ruling is that groups like the NRA, the Safari Club, and other sports-based groups can actively participate in the lawsuits filed by enviromental groups.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

I need some help of understanding on this subject.

I can can understand the issue of lead shot at the marshes and split shot on the lakes/ponds. These areas are usually small and can build up over time. Just taking the the strip in mind, I am having a tough time understanding how such a small fagment, give the amount of hunting currantly being done, could end up in Condors to such a level as to cause a problem. I wonder what those Condors do for food when nobody is hunting?


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

If we were required to use non lead bullets it would be yet another reason to jack up prices on already high priced ammunition. I don't like the idea. Look at the price difference on lead vs. steel shotgun shells. There must still be a ton of lead shot in the waters of Utah from decades of waterfowling, it's funny you never hear anything about lead poisining in waterfowl. Maybe the lead just magically vanished. Obviously you don't want to ingest lead because it is a toxic substance, I just don't think it is as big of a problem as it is made out to be when it comes to using it in rifle ammunition.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You have to figure that lead shot for waterfowl hunting has been in effect since 1991 and since that time from what I have read it has helped. The problem isn't with all the shot that is in the marshes but what gets shot and is just sitting on the bottom and not working its way into the bottom. Fresh shot will sit for a while on top of the bottom where bottom feeding ducks and injest it before it starts to work its way down into the bottom of the marsh. 
As for where the condors are getting the lead into their system I really don't know but from the studies that have been done it appears that it is coming from hunters using lead bullets. It may not just be in gut piles but other sources, but I don't have the knowlege to be able to debate that.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I personally believe that the lead bullet theory pertaining to the demise of the California Condor is far-fetched. Especially when you consider the amount of available bullet stricken meat in southern California where there are far more peole shot each year than animals. If they are similar to the vultures in Northern California, where there is much more hunting, most of their diet comes from roadkill. I would lend to believe that it is more likely that the lead is coming from tire-balancing weights that transfer to animals during the roadkill procees, then passed on to the condor during the scavenging process. Yes, this is a bit sarcastic, but lead bullets causing poisoning from eating entrails?? Come on folks. I personally am phasing away from lead for personal health reasons mostly pertaining to handling components during reloading, but I don't believe the lead hype for one minute. Maybe leads bans are appropriate for certain waterfoul areas that are heavily hunted like refuges, but for general areas, I believe that leads bans are much more political than practical.----------SS


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> ...I believe that leads bans are much more political than practical.----------SS


Bingo! I see it as more of an attack against hunting than anything. If ammo costs too much for the average Joe hunter to afford, he won't hunt anymore.

I won't try to deny that lead is bad for you, I just think this whole lead bullet idea is blown way out of proportion for purposes deeper than saving a few fish, birds, or scavengers.


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

In ancient times lead was used in pots and pans. It wasn't good. A great amount of lead CAN kill someone. But since people survived it must have been different lead than is used today. 
The truth is, lead must be less deadly than the anti-hunters want to admit. realistic concern over lead doesn't match the alarmism seen over lead ammunition (or the scare over alar in apples we saw a decade ago)
the anti-Lead movement is really an anti-hunting initiative.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

redleg said:


> In ancient times lead was used in pots and pans. It wasn't good. A great amount of lead CAN kill someone. But since people survived it must have been different lead than is used today.


It was the same kind of lead but humans didn't live much past 30 or 40 back in those days.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Critter said:


> redleg said:
> 
> 
> > In ancient times lead was used in pots and pans. It wasn't good. A great amount of lead CAN kill someone. But since people survived it must have been different lead than is used today.
> ...


Coincidence?


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I attempted a little research the last time this came up about how much lead is refined then put back into the environment as waste. The heavy industry numbers are easy because they are all channeled through the state and federal air/water quality people and reported to the public. I was unable to find numbers on the sporting industries (??). I was also unable to find documentation about how local concentrations may have been impacted by either. MSDS type documents and drinking water standards are the only sources about how much it takes to hurt you or how long it takes (if those are numbers are true for many chemicals I died years ago) there is little (if any) empirical evidence.
I will happily be _educated_.

Edit for a better word.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Ban lead from ammunition altogether. I don't care one whit.


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

how long do ducks live without lead?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

redleg said:


> how long do ducks live without lead?


In human years or duck years? o-||


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