# Holy War



## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

This is a little off topic from the "Max Hall is a scumbag" thread.

I keep hearing the term "holy war" being thrown around. I've got to say, I don't like it.

Here's the thing. I think all of us can agree that the rivalry has become much more mean-spirited lately. There are lots of theories for why, but why isn't the point. The point is that we need to go back to the good natured, and frankly, fun rivalry.

Utah fans seem to object to BYU fans religious zealousness. They object when BYU fans "pretend" to be good on Sunday and but the rest of the week are cursing and flipping people off. Utah fans seem to see BYU fans as hypocrites. 

Somehow, that apparently provides justification for Utah fans to attack the LDS church.

BYU fans object to the Utah fans vulgarity, boorish behavior, and general rudeness. They object when Utah fans attack the LDS church, offend their sensitivities, and are, in a word, obnoxious. 

Somehow, that apparently provides justification for BYU fans to "hate" Utah fans.

This whole "holy war" business really provides some insight into the way people are seeing this.

Some BYU fans and non-mormon Utah fans see the game as "Mormons vs. Non-mormons." That is totally FALSE! 

I think the vast majority of Utah fans are Mormon. What are they to think? They either think their church is turning on them or that they aren't living up to their faith by supporting the opposition. 

The non-mormon Utah fans, I think, see it as an opportunity to strike back at the Mormon majority. At this point they start throwing the beer, being vulgar, and otherwise offensive. That has to stop. 

The football game is not a "holy war." It might be neighbor against neighbor, but that's what makes it fun. It should not be pitting Mormons against everyone else and shouldn't be treated that way. Religion shouldn't be a component of a football game.

Non-mormon Utah fans need to be respectful of Mormon folks. That doesn't mean that you can't have a beer. It means that you don't need to flaunt the fact that you are drinking one. Non-mormon Utah fans have a right to do things that Mormons don't do. That doesn't mean you should abuse it. Be courteous if you smoke and drink. Realize that just because you feel like a smoke doesn't mean that everyone around you feels like having a smoke.

BYU fans need to be respectful of the non-Mormon folks. If they are having a beer, leave them alone. If they slip a **** or a hell in there, let it go. I'm not saying don't confront vulgarity, but use some sense. Don't expect everyone to live higher standards. Realize that when you go out in public, others have the right to do things that you don't do. 

Mormon Utah folks, your testimony doesn't ride on a football game. If you love the U, love it. Don't let BYU fans tell you that you are less of a Mormon because you like the U. Utah students didn't go to the U only because they couldn't get into BYU. Some of them actually like the U better. Mormon Utah folks should be more vocal with BYU fans when they cross the religious line. If BYU fans cross the line, say something. I bet you'll get an apology. But, don't let BYU fans make you feel inferior. Get the chip off your shoulder and enjoy the rivalry.

Fingers should be pointed at both sides. Both sides have taken their shots. Let's just be a little more civil, it will make it a lot more fun for everyone. This "holy war" crap needs to stop.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

So does this show who god likes more? :lol: J/k How do you guys like it when someone thanks god when they hit a homerun or makes a great play. That drives me nuts.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Dodger- I have to agree with a lot of what you are saying. As a Mormon Ute fan, it bothers me when "faithful" BYU fans parade their affiliation around like they are better than me. I don't believe it for one second, and think its ridiculous. That's all...no chip on my shoulder though. 

I do, however, believe that a lot of BYU folks think they are better because they go there, or went there, or root for the teams. Its a snobbish attitude that I have noticed from many BYU folks, and I know others have noticed. Do I believe all of them are like this? No way. I have several friends who attended the Y, and they don't act this way at all, but some do. Its like the kid in high school that thought he was cool because his dad had money. Its a false security and confidence, and its ridiculous.

I go to the U because I wanted to. I am part of a family that has a long standing tradition of attending and graduating from the U. This is not why I went there either. For me, it was a better choice. They have a program that I am interested in, and campus is closer to home. I stand behind my decision, and love my school, and support its team(s). The BYU honor code and school standards, as well as the general culture down there were not something I wanted to deal with. I served a mission, and lived the rules as much as I could. I love my faith, and try to live it as best I can, but I do sometimes slip up. I don't need my school as well as my faith making me feel guilty for my mistakes. One is enough! I know that many of you BYU folks will comment "But Chaser, if you're living the Gospel, you're living the Honor Code". Believe me, I am aware, but I would rather have school be school, and church be church. Does this make me less faithful than anyone at BYU? Again-NO! But some BYU folks would like to make me think so. Call it an insecurity, but that's the feeling I get from some BYU people.

In short- I agree that people need to chill out, and enjoy the rivalry, rather than making it so serious, but in order to do so, these other issues are going to need to be addressed.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

It's been called the Holy War for as long as I can remember, I do NOT think it is the 'problem'. Oregon and Oregon State play in the "Civil War", how much more divisive can you get than that? 

Chaser, I agree that what you say happens with BYU fans, but it goes the other way as well with Mormon utefans being smug with their allegiance. I graduated from the U of U, my brother is a U alum and a huge utefan, my dad graduated from the U AND BYU and cheers for BYU, my wife is a utefan. Point is, there are "classy' fans on both sides, and "classless" fans on both sides. It is the pinheads that stick out to most of us. For me, I have met MORE utefans that I don't like than I like, but hell I am related to several and I married a utefan so go figure. My liking BYU has NOTHING to do with religion, and my dislike of utesports has NOTHING to do with religion.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Chaser said:


> Dodger- I have to agree with a lot of what you are saying. As a Mormon Ute fan, it bothers me when "faithful" BYU fans parade their affiliation around like they are better than me. I don't believe it for one second, and think its ridiculous. That's all...no chip on my shoulder though.
> 
> I do, however, believe that a lot of BYU folks think they are better because they go there, or went there, or root for the teams. Its a snobbish attitude that I have noticed from many BYU folks, and I know others have noticed. Do I believe all of them are like this? No way. I have several friends who attended the Y, and they don't act this way at all, but some do. Its like the kid in high school that thought he was cool because his dad had money. Its a false security and confidence, and its ridiculous.
> 
> ...


I think you are right on Chaser. I think it would be a great thing if Coach Wittingham came out and talked to his fans and Coach Mendenhall came out and talked to his fans. I wish each would tell their own fans to cut out the crap.

I'm with you on the honor code. I lived by it but in my opinion it is a chain. It is written so broadly that it could encompass anything BYU wants it to, and frequently, they warp it to mean whatever they want it to. Living the gospel is not living the honor code. Living the honor code means that you are ok with being dominated by a bully, at least long enough to get a degree. But, that's another thread.

I agree that there are BYU folks that have a certain snobbery. As I said, they need to cut it out. But, on the Utes side, I think many do have a chip on their shoulders and let the BYU fans make them feel that way. Ask BYU fans about their architecture school or their med school.

I think it is the obnoxious Utah fans that are giving the rest a bad name. And it is the zealot BYU fans that are giving the rest a bad name. I just want the viciousness that has started in the past few years to stop.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

fixed blade said:


> So does this show who god likes more? :lol: J/k How do you guys like it when someone thanks god when they hit a homerun or makes a great play. That drives me nuts.


I think a lot of times they are doing it to call attention to their own piety rather than actually praising God.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> It's been called the Holy War for as long as I can remember, I do NOT think it is the 'problem'. Oregon and Oregon State play in the "Civil War", how much more divisive can you get than that?
> 
> Chaser, I agree that what you say happens with BYU fans, but it goes the other way as well with Mormon utefans being smug with their allegiance. I graduated from the U of U, my brother is a U alum and a huge utefan, my dad graduated from the U AND BYU and cheers for BYU, my wife is a utefan. Point is, there are "classy' fans on both sides, and "classless" fans on both sides. It is the pinheads that stick out to most of us. For me, I have met MORE utefans that I don't like than I like, but hell I am related to several and I married a utefan so go figure. My liking BYU has NOTHING to do with religion, and my dislike of utesports has NOTHING to do with religion.


I think that's the way it should be.

But, I see a lot of the viciousness in the Utah/BYU rivalry having roots that are buried in some religious differences. Some people see it as a Mormon vs. non-mormon fight when it isn't. It's a football game!

I almost think that "Civil War" is less divisive than "Holy War," considering the relevant populations of each state. But for the religious component of the BYU/Utah rivalry, it could just as easily be a "Civil War." The only thing that makes BYU/Utah different from Oregon/Oregon St. is the religious component. Having a Mormon vs. non-mormon argument in Utah is about the most divisive thing I can think of.

Calling it a "holy war" isn't the problem per se. I just think it is a symptom of the broader problem - the fact that some see the "war" between Utah and BYU as a religious fight.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Dodger said:


> Calling it a "holy war" isn't the problem per se. I just think it is a symptom of the broader problem - the fact that some see the "war" between Utah and BYU as a religious fight.


I agree with that, but as you say, what it is called makes little difference. People on BOTH sides view it as a "Holy War", and that is NOT likely to change. The only way I see this not being a "Holy War" is to stop having the game, and that isn't going to happen. Until people on BOTH sides gain some maturity, it will be what it is and has been for many years, a rivalry that has undertones unparalleled in college sports.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > Calling it a "holy war" isn't the problem per se. I just think it is a symptom of the broader problem - the fact that some see the "war" between Utah and BYU as a religious fight.
> ...


The undertones as such, I think are less of a problem. I think the problem is when things get more vicious and you have fans deliberately offending religious sensibilities only because they know they can (i.e., throwing beer on BYU fans).

I think those folks see it as an opportunity to strike back against the Mormon majority. I don't think maturity will help. Maturity won't cure deliberate offensiveness, only respect can do that.

That viciousness has to stop. There is no need for the vulgarity - on both sides. It's not a religious fight. It's a football game.


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## The Janitor (Jan 23, 2009)

Dodger said:


> I'm with you on the honor code. I lived by it but in my opinion it is a chain. It is written so broadly that it could encompass anything BYU wants it to, *and frequently, they warp it to mean whatever they want it to.* Living the gospel is not living the honor code. * Living the honor code means that you are ok with being dominated by a bully*, at least long enough to get a degree. But, that's another thread.


Oh, this is too rich. Please do explain your sentiments. I'm all ears.


Dodger said:


> I agree that there are BYU folks that have a certain snobbery. As I said, they need to cut it out. But, on the Utes side, I think many do have a chip on their shoulders and let the BYU fans make them feel that way. * Ask BYU fans about their architecture school or their med school.*


Lucky for Utah they don't have those programs because BYU students would outperform Utah's in those too. 

But don't let me stop you and Chaser from piously elevating your own righteousness above the "snobbish" BYU students. If they truly are turning their noses up at you, at least they are perceptive enough to realize when they are doing it. 8)


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

The Janitor said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with you on the honor code. I lived by it but in my opinion it is a chain. It is written so broadly that it could encompass anything BYU wants it to, *and frequently, they warp it to mean whatever they want it to.* Living the gospel is not living the honor code. * Living the honor code means that you are ok with being dominated by a bully*, at least long enough to get a degree. But, that's another thread.
> ...


You either didn't go to BYU or you didn't pay attention while you were there. I did go to BYU. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

I have 2 examples: I got a parking ticket that was unwarranted. I protested and appealed. I never cursed at them. I never raised my voice. But, I told them in no uncertain terms that if they made me pay any of the ticket that I wouldn't donate any money to BYU in the future. They called the honor code office because I was allegedly "threatening" the parking appeals judge.

Even assuming withholding future donations is a threat, can you show me where in the honor code it says I can't do that?

During the beginning of the Iraq war I was involved in some counter protesting. It basically meant arguing with people outside the bookstore. They picked up me and a few friends for honor code violations because "arguing in public," "protesting," and "being disruptive" are against the honor code.

I asked them to show me where the honor code said that. They couldn't, they just said it was in there.

As I said, they are interested in dominating their students. They want to be their parents and they force you into complying otherwise you will not get your degree. I read the honor code before I signed it. But, as they did in both of the above instances, they warp it to fit what they want it to mean despite what it actually says.



Dodger said:


> I agree that there are BYU folks that have a certain snobbery. As I said, they need to cut it out. But, on the Utes side, I think many do have a chip on their shoulders and let the BYU fans make them feel that way. * Ask BYU fans about their architecture school or their med school.*





The Janitor said:


> Lucky for Utah they don't have those programs because BYU students would outperform Utah's in those too.
> 
> But don't let me stop you and Chaser from piously elevating your own righteousness above the "snobbish" BYU students. If they truly are turning their noses up at you, at least they are perceptive enough to realize when they are doing it. 8)


See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. No one is elevating any righteousness here. Both teams' fans are at fault. You immediately assumed that I'm a Utah fan. I'm not. I love BYU football and always have. But, with all due respect, it is people like you that take away from the fun by perpetuating these stereotypes.

If you can't admit Utah has at least some good things going for it, that is sad. There's no pride in beating a team like SUU (forgive me SUU fans), it is expected. Why would you want the Utes to be a weak opponent? It's better for everyone when both teams are strong. If that is the case, why do you deride them?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I have several thoughts to chime in here.

-I have nothing against the University of Utah. It is an excellent university. Though I did not attend there, should my children choose to take advantage of the excellent programs they have there, I would support them.

-I am a BYU alumni. I choose BYU for many reasons. I never had an issue with the honor code, never felt it demanded anything more from me than I demanded of myself, and I never found any of it intrusive into my life. If I were to go back and choose again, I would choose BYU in a heartbeat. If my children choose to take advantage of the excellent programs available there, I would support them.

-While I support the University of Utah, I do not like the football team, nor the over-zealous football fans. My first experience at Rice Stadium was in 1988 - the first time in 10 years that utah won. I was a BYU freshman and in the marching band. As I was walking around the north end of the field - by the old berm (That berm was cool by the way) and a 10 year oldish little blonde girl ran right up in my face and shoved a double bird three inches from my nose and yelled "F- you BYU!". That constant chant kept up through most of the game. In the band, stuck in the NW corner of the old crappy stands, we had plenty of trash thown on us. I can't say it was beer. But plenty of mostly empty hot chocolate cups, hot dog trays, soda cups, etc... It was generally understood that after the Utah game, the entire band would get their uniforms dry cleaned from all the ketchup, mustard, and hot coco stains. In '92 when I took my Dad (A ute - in my avatar pic with me) to the game -a tradition we've continued as often as possible - my wife and I got pelted with snowballs throughout the game. We NEVER cheered against the utes - only FOR the cougars. We didn't talk trash - just cheered our team and got pelted with snowballs all game. Our blue sweatshirts made good targets I guess. I was at both 34-31 games and walking out, had plenty of red shirts come right in my face with a double birds and "F you BYU" yelled right in my face. The only rivalry game I didn't deal with obnoxious fans was the 3-0 game. And everyone from both teams was just too freaking cold to cheer or yell much of anything. And as dry as that game was, people were just happy to get out of there. Over the years, I've just grown VERY tired of being flipped off and yelled "F you" at all the games. I find that to be classless in every way. 

-Cheap shots on the field - As a matter of course of closely following the rivalry for twenty years, I just don't like the way the utes play the game. I like hard play. I like good play. And I see a lot of that from the utes. But I also see lots of late hits. Lots of helmet to knee hits. Lots of hits out of bounds. I watch a LOT of football and I have not seen any team in the nation with as much in the late hit/out of bound hit relm, than the utes. Its been that way for the 20 years I've followed the rivalry. And I think that is just crappy. I do not respect that. I like hard hits in football and if injuries happen as a result, so be it. But I can think of two BYU QBs whose sports careers were ended by late, cheap, illegal hits from Utah. I do respect Coach Whit - great interview yesterday on 1280 if you heard it. But I do not like the cheap, late and out of bound hits that have been the utefootball signature for 20+ years.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2009)

Dodger said:


> As I said, they are interested in dominating their students. They want to be their parents and they force you into complying otherwise you will not get your degree. I read the honor code before I signed it. But, as they did in both of the above instances, they warp it to fit what they want it to mean despite what it actually says.


Funny, you start this thread calling for more civility and mutual respect, and then you start trashing BYU in your next two posts. Oh, but that is okay, because you are a BYU alum, right? :roll:

I too am a BYU alum, as is my wife, and we do not share your sentiments about being dominated and bullied. It is a private religious university. They have every right to have standards and requirements. If you don't like them then you should not go there. I understand that some kids are not given much of a choice. I knew plenty of BYU students whose parents wanted them to go to BYU, and would not pay for them to go to school anywhere else. That is wrong, and I sympathize with those people. But most BYU students are there because they want to be there. They are there because they like the atmosphere, and the religious perspective they get along with their secular education. I am sorry you had such a negative experience at BYU. Mine, on the other hand, was almost entirely positive.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

WeakenedWarrior said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > As I said, they are interested in dominating their students. They want to be their parents and they force you into complying otherwise you will not get your degree. I read the honor code before I signed it. But, as they did in both of the above instances, they warp it to fit what they want it to mean despite what it actually says.
> ...


He has been very civil, I don't see a problem. I guess there can be no criticism of BYU even though there has been plenty of critism of the U, so are double standards a normal thing at BYU? :roll: So Janitor are you a BYU grad or a student, just curious?

Utah, BYU, and Utah State are all great schools and you can find colleges in each University that are better than the others. I think we can all agree on that.


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## The Janitor (Jan 23, 2009)

jahan said:


> So Janitor are you a BYU grad or a student, just curious?


I attended three semesters at BYU. I didn't live on campus as I was already married and living in South Jordan. I loved BYU, everything about it, except the stress from intense academic competition. Admittedly, I was more of the jack-mormon who drank and gives Ute fans great incentive to categorize most BYU as hypocrites in return. But I loved the atmosphere there and noticed I actually lived as a better person while attending school there, than I used before going to BYU. My biggest regret was transferring to a different school to pursue a degree that ultimately didn't work out for me. I never felt bullied or that school's honor code was something that was used as a weapon against its students. I really loved my BOM classes and found them inspirational, but also found that the biggest challenge to my faith would come from the D&C classes I took there. My teacher sure didn't sugar coat Mormon doctrine or history and I walked away truly wondering what I believe. I often still wonder about things to this day and am often internally conflicted knowing that things aren't always as the lesson manuals in church teach them to be, yet at the same time knowing that the only true spiritual witness I've ever felt in my life, anywhere, comes from reading the BOM with real intent. There really is a power to be harnessed through it. I know this is more than you asked, but I felt I would sum up, rather succinctly, my experience at and love for BYU.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

The Janitor said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > So Janitor are you a BYU grad or a student, just curious?
> ...


Thanks, I am always curious about things like this. Like I said BYU is a great University, my cousin attendeds Airforce ROTC classes from there and has many friends there. They accept him even though he isn't LDS.


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## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

> -Cheap shots on the field - As a matter of course of closely following the rivalry for twenty years, I just don't like the way the utes play the game. I like hard play. I like good play. And I see a lot of that from the utes. But I also see lots of late hits. Lots of helmet to knee hits. Lots of hits out of bounds. I watch a LOT of football and I have not seen any team in the nation with as much in the late hit/out of bound hit relm, than the utes. Its been that way for the 20 years I've followed the rivalry. And I think that is just crappy. I do not respect that. I like hard hits in football and if injuries happen as a result, so be it. But I can think of two BYU QBs whose sports careers were ended by late, cheap, illegal hits from Utah. I do respect Coach Whit - great interview yesterday on 1280 if you heard it. But I do not like the cheap, late and out of bound hits that have been the utefootball signature for 20+ years.


Garyfish, you must have listened to the game on the radio because you obviously weren't watching the game on TV. Both teams took many dirty, cheap shots. There surely wasn't an overabundance on either side. Both teams were guilty.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

flyguy7 said:


> > -Cheap shots on the field - As a matter of course of closely following the rivalry for twenty years, I just don't like the way the utes play the game. I like hard play. I like good play. And I see a lot of that from the utes. But I also see lots of late hits. Lots of helmet to knee hits. Lots of hits out of bounds. I watch a LOT of football and I have not seen any team in the nation with as much in the late hit/out of bound hit relm, than the utes. Its been that way for the 20 years I've followed the rivalry. And I think that is just crappy. I do not respect that. I like hard hits in football and if injuries happen as a result, so be it. But I can think of two BYU QBs whose sports careers were ended by late, cheap, illegal hits from Utah. I do respect Coach Whit - great interview yesterday on 1280 if you heard it. But I do not like the cheap, late and out of bound hits that have been the utefootball signature for 20+ years.
> 
> 
> Garyfish, you must have listened to the game on the radio because you obviously weren't watching the game on TV. Both teams took many dirty, cheap shots. There surely wasn't an overabundance on either side. Both teams were guilty.


Cougars would never do such a thing, who are you kidding! 8)


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

flyguy7 said:


> Garyfish, you must have listened to the game on the radio because you obviously weren't watching the game on TV. Both teams took many dirty, cheap shots. There surely wasn't an overabundance on either side. Both teams were guilty.


I watched the game. Twice now. And you are right - lots of cheap shots from both sides. And I hate that. I'll need to watch it again. I don't remember BYU being flagged for a hit out of bounds, or after the whistle "cleaning the pile" hit like the calls on Beatles. BYU's unsportsman flags came for saying words to the ref that they shouldn't have been saying. Again, something I don't approve of. And I think they had 2-15 yard facemask calls. But the difference is those don't end people's careers. Seriously - and I am very critical of my own team - but I've never seen any team that hits out of bounds and after the whistle more than the utahutes. The out-of-bounds hits from the utes are as regular as the ankle biting from air force. It is a part of the culture and program, and has been for decades.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> flyguy7 said:
> 
> 
> > Garyfish, you must have listened to the game on the radio because you obviously weren't watching the game on TV. Both teams took many dirty, cheap shots. There surely wasn't an overabundance on either side. Both teams were guilty.
> ...


That hit was way classless, jawing is one thing, but that could have hurt the dude. The one hit out of bounds was not malicious, stupid, but he wasn't trying to hurt the guy, his adrenaline was just going to much and didn't let up when he should have.


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## Texscala (Sep 8, 2007)

Dodger said:


> You either didn't go to BYU or you didn't pay attention while you were there. I did go to BYU. I know exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> I have 2 examples: I got a parking ticket that was unwarranted. I protested and appealed. I never cursed at them. I never raised my voice. But, I told them in no uncertain terms that if they made me pay any of the ticket that I wouldn't donate any money to BYU in the future. They called the honor code office because I was allegedly "threatening" the parking appeals judge.


How much was that parking ticket? When I was there they were $17 and I never paid for one. I would go talk to the office and explain the situation and they always understood and dismissed the ticket no problem.

As far as the protest thing I always hated those guys on campus. Go find something worth doing, really who are you trying to change?

I did my undergrad at BYU and am now finishing up my MBA at USU. I have found both schools are great and do and will continue to donate to both.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

The Janitor said:


> But don't let me stop you and Chaser from piously elevating your own righteousness above the "snobbish" BYU students. If they truly are turning their noses up at you, at least they are perceptive enough to realize when they are doing it. 8)


Hey now, don't try and put words in my mouth. I said "some" BYU folks do this, not "all" or even "most." I (unlike Max Hall) was careful to single out the few rather than generalize and try to pin it on the many. Just as you say some U fans have their things that you find annoying, I was saying the same thing, vice versa.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

WeakenedWarrior said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > As I said, they are interested in dominating their students. They want to be their parents and they force you into complying otherwise you will not get your degree. I read the honor code before I signed it. But, as they did in both of the above instances, they warp it to fit what they want it to mean despite what it actually says.
> ...


I never said I had a negative BYU experience. All I said is that I have legitimate criticism. It isn't uncivil. It isn't disrespectful. It isn't trashing on BYU. It is deserved criticism.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

jahan said:


> Utah, BYU, and Utah State are all great schools and you can find colleges in each University that are better than the others. I think we can all agree on that.


Exactly. Each school as its positives and negatives. They each have their strengths and weaknesses.

BYU fans need to see some good in Utah. Utah fans need to see some good in Utah.

Both fans need to drop the religious aspect from the football/university debate. Obnoxious Utah fans need to stop the attacks that offend religious undertones.

That's all I'm getting at. Doesn't that make the rivalry more fun for everyone?


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not going to lie... there is good in Y fans... I've felt it. :shock: :wink: 8) -~|- 

Sorry, that was probably inappropriate.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Texscala said:


> How much was that parking ticket? When I was there they were $17 and I never paid for one. I would go talk to the office and explain the situation and they always understood and dismissed the ticket no problem.
> 
> As far as the protest thing I always hated those guys on campus. Go find something worth doing, really who are you trying to change?
> 
> I did my undergrad at BYU and am now finishing up my MBA at USU. I have found both schools are great and do and will continue to donate to both.


The ticket was either $100 or $200. It didn't really matter, I didn't have either amount. I parked in a handicap spot with a BYU issued handicap permit on the first day of Winter semester (I had my knee rebuilt during the preceding Christmas break). I was treated incredibly poorly by the appeals judge. He knew the ticket was wrong which is why they eventually lowered it to $5.

That isn't really the point though. My point, that I didn't really want to get into here is that BYU does selectively apply the honor code. Show me where the honor code says "threats" violate the terms of the code. It doesn't. The "violation" was dismissed.

As far as the protesting, if you look again, I was counter-protesting. That basically means some hippie got in my face and in my way and I didn't put up with it. I started arguing with the lot of them, supported by a few friends. We were accused of violating the honor code because we won the argument and the hippies complained to the police.

Later on, this was also dismissed. "Arguing" is not in the honor code, much as they wanted to tell me that it was.

I wasn't trying to change anyone. I was trying to get their hippie BS out of my face. In the end, we showed them that if they were going to have an opinion, they should have the facts and reasoning to back it up.

I have my problems with BYU. I think some of the things they do are immoral, if not illegal. I think parts of the honor code is a thinly veiled attempt at paternalism. Their plan is essentially to hold your degree hostage and force you to be "good." I have no problem with being "good." I don't need BYU's help to be "good." I can do it on my own.

But, none of this has anything to do with the original post. We're getting off track.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> Cheap shots on the field - As a matter of course of closely following the rivalry for twenty years, I just don't like the way the utes play the game. I like hard play. I like good play. And I see a lot of that from the utes. But I also see lots of late hits. Lots of helmet to knee hits. Lots of hits out of bounds. I watch a LOT of football and I have not seen any team in the nation with as much in the late hit/out of bound hit relm, than the utes. Its been that way for the 20 years I've followed the rivalry. And I think that is just crappy. I do not respect that. I like hard hits in football and if injuries happen as a result, so be it. But I can think of two BYU QBs whose sports careers were ended by late, cheap, illegal hits from Utah. I do respect Coach Whit - great interview yesterday on 1280 if you heard it. But I do not like the cheap, late and out of bound hits that have been the utefootball signature for 20+ years.


Interesting thoughts GaryFish. I bet there is probably a correlation between poor conduct on the field and poor conduct by the fans off the field.

I wish both teams and their fans had a vested interest in making the other team look as good as possible until the last weekend in November. It helps both teams.

It is disappointing that the fans can't be friends for the rest of the year. I think it needs to stop.

And, on a more personal note, I've been outside of Utah for coming up on 4 years soon. There aren't a lot of people out here that want to talk about BYU football. I have come to appreciate any MWC fans, and especially Ute fans, because we share common interests. My best football buddy out here is a rabid Ute fan. Before I came out here, I never would have talked football with him because I thought we would have too much to disagree on. Now, I have seen the light, as it were.

You don't realize what you have until it is gone.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> I'm not going to lie... there is good in Y fans... I've felt it. :shock: :wink: 8) -~|-
> 
> Sorry, that was probably inappropriate.


Classless would be more accurate. :O//:


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> I'm not going to lie... there is good in Y fans... I've felt it. :shock: :wink: 8) -~|-
> 
> Sorry, that was probably inappropriate.


Star Wars references are always appropriate. 8)

Honestly though, that's not mean-spirited, assuming you meant it that way, which I think you did.

I'm a Y fan. I can take good-natured razzing. Heck, I don't even mind jokes about how everyone on this board has intercepted Max Hall. If they were on the field during last year's game, they probably all did.

It's the mean-spirited stuff that needs to stop.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Riverrat77 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not going to lie... there is good in Y fans... I've felt it. :shock: :wink: 8) -~|-
> ...


 :lol: ****.... I've been exposed. Meh, like somebody said to me today.... I'm not going to change what anyone else thinks, so why bother? Besides it makes for high emotions come gametime. 8)

Dodger, along the "Star Wars" related lines.... its too late for me my son, the evil has already taken over... I'm a Pac 10 fan at heart so i was born mean spirited and classless. 8)


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > Riverrat77 said:
> ...


Soon this rebellion will be crushed and young Riverrat will be one of us. . . :wink:

The Utes and the Cougs likely have dates with the Pac 10 here in the next few weeks.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2009)

Dodger said:


> I never said I had a negative BYU experience. All I said is that I have legitimate criticism. It isn't uncivil. It isn't disrespectful. It isn't trashing on BYU. It is deserved criticism.


You're killing me man. So far in this thread you have accused BYU of regularly doing things that are dominating, bullying, immoral and even illegal, yet you insist you are not trashing BYU! I admit, I am offended by your accusations, and I absolutely reject your assertion that it is "deserved criticism". All you are doing is reinforcing all the mean-spirited and false stereotypes that people have about BYU, and that many Ute fans love to cite over and over again as justification for their own hatred of BYU.


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## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

does someone need a tissue?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

flyguy7 said:


> does someone need a tissue?


Yes, utefan does!


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

WeakenedWarrior said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > I never said I had a negative BYU experience. All I said is that I have legitimate criticism. It isn't uncivil. It isn't disrespectful. It isn't trashing on BYU. It is deserved criticism.
> ...


I'm sorry you are offended. That was not my intention. Perhaps you are a little too sensitive to criticisms of BYU.

Are you asserting that BYU has never done anything that deserves criticism? If so, I think that is exactly the stereotype that perpetuates the stereotypes the Utah fans love to cite. BYU isn't perfect. I think it is the inability of BYU fans to recognize any legitimate criticism of the school that drives some, if not most, Utah fans crazy.

Furthermore, I've given you numerous examples of how BYU uses the honor code to dominate and bully. I'll ask you the same thing I asked the honor code office. Can you show me where "arguing" is forbidden in the honor code? Can you show me where making "threats" is forbidden in the honor code? Show me. I'll admit I am wrong if I am.

More examples:
BYU tried to tell me having a gun in my apartment was an honor code violation. It isn't.
BYU tried to tell me that having a hunting knife in my apartment was an honor code violation. It isn't.

Do you think it is immoral if BYU tries to squelch my rights to keep and bear arms? I do. 
Do you think it is immoral if Merrill Bateman wants to "speak as a citizen" against concealed carry but does so using his position as President of the university? I do.

Is that not a legitimate criticism?

As far as illegal, my opinion is that there are some legitimate anti-trust concerns with the BYU Housing Office. It hasn't been litigated so I can't say that it is definitely illegal, which I never did. But, from my perspective there appears to be at least a case for collusive price fixing and monopolization by the BYU Housing Office. That is illegal.

I have shown specific examples of how BYU (1) warps the honor code to dominate and bully its students, (2) actively attempts to squelch my rights to keep and bear arms which I believe is immoral, and (3) has entered into an arrangement (colluded) with land owners especially in the South Campus area, to illegally fix rent prices and institute a monopoly.

If you don't think those are legitimate criticisms, tell me why. I'm interested to know. What is illegitimate? Do you think BYU has done anything that merits criticism - ever? Do you think any criticism of BYU is "trashing?" If not, what criticism is acceptable? Where do you distinguish criticism from "trashing?" Where is the line?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

On the gun issue, I don't think that is a legitimate criticism. I know of NO college in the country that allows guns in apartments. I also know of NO base housing on military bases that allows guns in base housing (some but it must be by permit - but its my understanding that personal weapons have to be stored at the armory). Those terms were specifically laid out in your housing contract. It was a contractual thing - not an honor code thing. It may have been misrepresented as an honor code thing. And would be enforced through the honor code office, but it goes back to being within the terms of your housing contract.

As for President Bateman speaking against concealed weapons - University Presidents and faculty speak on all sorts of things in expressing an opinion. AND they regularly use their positions to gain audience. That is the whole point of universities. It is called academic freedom. I had many professors and even University Presidents express things I agreed with - and disagreed with. But just because they present a point of view I don't like doesn't make it immoral. 

The legality of BYU's Housing cartel has been appealed to the n'th degree. And actually, I think it even went to the US Supreme Court in all honesty.And it was found to be legal. So I don't know what to say on that. As for price fixing, I personally found that not to be the case. There were just too many apartments willing to jam the other one for renters. That doesn't mean they didn't screw the students. But there were fare too many housing providers for any kind of real, large scale collusion to take place.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> On the gun issue, I don't think that is a legitimate criticism. I know of NO college in the country that allows guns in apartments. I also know of NO base housing on military bases that allows guns in base housing (some but it must be by permit - but its my understanding that personal weapons have to be stored at the armory). Those terms were specifically laid out in your housing contract. It was a contractual thing - not an honor code thing. It may have been misrepresented as an honor code thing. And would be enforced through the honor code office, but it goes back to being within the terms of your housing contract.
> 
> I recognize that it is part of the housing contract, but it is a contract written by BYU. Furthermore, if my contract is between me and my landlord, what right does BYU have to regulate the terms of it? But that's my point. That's where BYU dominates and bullies, usually by misrepresentation. Whether it is in the honor code or not, that's how they try to enforce it.
> 
> ...


I recognize that this has been to court a few times. I think that the new 1 mile rule changes things and that hasn't been litigated, as far as I'm aware. If the 1 mile rule isn't collusion, I don't know what is. That is BYU actively participating in providing an exclusive market - which it monopolizes - to artificially inflate rent prices in the South Campus area. Even if it isn't illegal, it is at least morally questionable.

I had a 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom apartment I shared with 3 other guys. We each paid $280/month. Can you honestly tell me that $1120/month is fair rent for that kind of place? Why is it that married students can get the same bedroom bathroom ratio in the same general area and pay $400/month when the same housing rules no longer apply? They are competing in the same space.

Finally, tell me what you think Garyfish, I respect your opinion. Can BYU be legitimately criticized for anything? Am I "trashing" BYU? Am I being uncivil in my criticism? Have I not laid out at least a plausible case for my opinion?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

On the gun issue - Again, this isn't unique to BYU. I mentioned the case of military base housing not allowing guns. Its part of what you sign up for so it is not an infringement of your rights. My wife and I lived in campus housing for about 3 years. And truth be known, I kept my hunting rifles under my bed and never asked/told anyone. 

On the overpayment of rent - I had the exact same thoughts when I was there. Heck, in 1991, we were paying $1,000 in combined rent for a 3-bedroom, one bath apartment for six of us. When apartments charge students by the bed, instead of the entire apartment as a whole, the price is hyper-inflated. It sucks. Again, that is not unique to housing around BYU - it happens in EVERY college town. It still sucks though. That part of it is the free market working though. So love it or hate it - its how the market functions.

On BYU-Approved housing and contracts - that is the part that went to the supreme court - if they could do that or not. And it was successfully argued that they could. It is rather unique among college towns in that way. BYU's right to regulate housing off-campus has been secured legally at the highest level of appeal. So we may not like it, but it is legal.

Can BYU be legitimately criticized for anything - Absolutely! And it should be. I had many professors that not only pushed us to question it - but to explore, be critical, and in that criticism, to learn to back our criticisms. I think you have laid out several good reasons for your opinion. I respect that. My experiences were different, so I have a different point of view. I cannot speak to the fairness of the honor code office as I never had to deal with them.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> On the gun issue - Again, this isn't unique to BYU. I mentioned the case of military base housing not allowing guns. Its part of what you sign up for so it is not an infringement of your rights. My wife and I lived in campus housing for about 3 years. And truth be known, I kept my hunting rifles under my bed and never asked/told anyone.
> 
> Yes, I understand it isn't unique to BYU. But, I think there is a difference when I live off campus and have a contract with another business. If you live on campus, it is another story.
> 
> ...


You're a fair man Garyfish. That's why I respect your opinion.


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