# why no live bait or chum?



## BridgerM

Just curious, why does the DNR prohibit live bait or chum in utah waters? i know powell is an exception though.


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## GaryFish

That's a good question. I've lived and fished in other states where we used live goldfish for catching smallies. Two bucks of feeder goldfish from Walmart could keep a guy busy for quite a while. 

Others can probably provide a better answer than me, but the main reason I am aware of is to protect the native species of fish that are in Utah's waters. By using live bait, you introduce new species into a water and the results can be a disaster to the native fish that can get out-competed by non-native species. Many of the biggest challenges facing Utah fisheries are a direct result from introduction of non-native species into the fishery. The killer on that, is that past management practice had DWR doing the transplants (such as brook trout, california strains of rainbow, and brown trout - all non-native to Utah).


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## Fishrmn

While the UDWR gets credit for most of the game fish that have been introduced to the waters of the state, they were, and are in the position to have the authority to do those kinds of things. And it isn't just the native species that are negatively affected. Golden shiners were introduced (by people using them as live bait) in a couple of southern Utah waters. It isn't hurting the native species, but it sure raised Cain with the sport fisheries. It means that money has to be spent to manage things differently. It means that some species have to be limited, or others introduced. Sometimes it means chemical treatment of a fishery. That includes a lot of expense, and a lot of down time while the fishery is treated and rehabilitated. It's money that could have been used somewhere else.

And that doesn't even touch on the possibility of disease. VHS and whirling disease, or invasive species.

We're gonna hear from the guys who say that corn is too effective as bait, or that fish (trout in particular) can't digest it. Both theories are nothing but horsefeathers. You can use scents that simulate corn. You can use cornmeal in a dough bait. You can use imitation corn. Heck, even PowerBait comes in corn flavor. And there are studies that show that trout can eat, pass, and survive on corn. It isn't the best way to raise trout, but it won't kill them. Corn was used VERY extensively as chum back in the day. It contributed to the nutrient load, and helped support algae blooms at Strawberry. Because fish cops can't be in every boat to supervise everybody, and some folks can't resist temptation, the UDWR outlaws chumming, and the possession of corn or hominy. If you don't have it with you, you won't be tempted to chum with it.


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## Grandpa D

Fishrmn has answered your question very well.
Live bait will result in some of these bait fish being introduced into the waters and that can be disastrous to a fishery.
Chumming just isn't sporting.
I support the ban on both concepts.


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## dubob

Grandpa D said:


> Chumming just isn't sporting.


Sorry Dale, but I got a good laugh on that one. And I'm NOT saying your opinion is wrong. But I've spent a little time in some different parts of the world thanks to Uncle Sam and in some of those places you'd be laughed out of town for making such a statement. I used to say the same thing about running deer with dogs when I was growing up in Michigan. But then I got stationed in Mississippi and Florida. You don't hunt deer in either of those states WITHOUT running them with dogs. And I wouldn't be caught dead hunting ducks over bait, but in Australia, you would be very hard pressed to ever find a duck blind that doesn't have a bag or two of bait spead out around it. Oh, they also think it judicious and wise to shoot their ducks on the water. It's much easier to fill your limit when you can kill 3 or 4 at a time.

Now don't think I'm in any way endorsing a change in Utah to allow chumming because I am decidedly NOT doing that. But I don't believe the reason it is not allowed here has anything to do with the practice not being sporting. There are just millions of fishermen that would whole heartedly disagree with you on that one.

:O--O:


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## Grandpa D

Then what is the reason for not allowing chumming in Utah?


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## Fishrmn

Fishrmn said:


> We're gonna hear from the guys who say that corn is too effective as bait, or that fish (trout in particular) can't digest it. Both theories are nothing but horsefeathers. You can use scents that simulate corn. You can use cornmeal in a dough bait. You can use imitation corn. Heck, even PowerBait comes in corn flavor. And there are studies that show that trout can eat, pass, and survive on corn. It isn't the best way to raise trout, but it won't kill them. Corn was used VERY extensively as chum back in the day. It contributed to the nutrient load, and helped support algae blooms at Strawberry. Because fish cops can't be in every boat to supervise everybody, and some folks can't resist temptation, the UDWR outlaws chumming, and the possession of corn or hominy. If you don't have it with you, you won't be tempted to chum with it.


When it was legal the corner grocery stores put corn on sale the week before the opening weekend of fishing season. People bought it by the case. They threw it into the lake by the case. If the fish didn't eat it in just a few hours, it would sit and rot. I remember the drought of '76 when Mud Creek Bay at Strawberry Reservoir smelled like a whiskey still. There was a carpet of corn that wasn't visible when the water was 20 feet deep or so. But when the water went down and it was only 5 or 6 feet deep in the back of the bay, you could see that the corn was literally several inches deep in places.

My cousins had scuba gear and told us a year or so before that, that you could quit chumming as there was already enough corn on the bottom to cover from the tips of their fingers to their wrists. That stuff has to decompose. In doing so, it feeds the algae blooms and when conditions are right it depletes the oxygen from the water.


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## DallanC

You used to be able to buy big slingshots at the store at Clarks Camp that just happened to hold about as much as a can of corn ... lol!

There was stuff that worked way way better than corn though...


-DallanC


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## BridgerM

I can understand about not introducing species to new waters. But what about catching crayfish and using them at the same water? 

Sounds to me like some of the regs are based on past problems and not entirely relevant today. Again, this is just curiosity. I spend time on other forums where most are from the south and use live bait. And I fished lake mead earlier this year where chum and live bait is the norm.


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## tye dye twins

BridgerM said:


> I can understand about not introducing species to new waters. But what about catching crayfish and using them at the same water?


From what I know that is the only live bait you can use.


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## Fishrmn

BridgerM said:


> And I fished lake mead earlier this year where chum and live bait is the norm.


And that is most likely where the Golden Shiners that are in a couple of southern Utah waters came from. Whoever brought the shiners didn't bring Quagga Mussels, but somebody managed to get some into Lake Powell.


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## dubob

tye dye twins said:


> BridgerM said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand about not introducing species to new waters. But what about catching crayfish and using them at the same water?
> 
> 
> 
> From what I know that is the only live bait you can use.
Click to expand...

And just how would you classify night crawlers, crickets, wax worms, and meal worms?

-_O-


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## DallanC

You forgot Grasshoppers!


-DallanC


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## brookieguy1

And mice.


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## brookieguy1

Corn wrist-deep in Mud Creek Bay? I ain't buyin' it. Urban myth for sure. That would take hundreds of semi loads. Sorry. Never happened. I believe there was enough that it could easily be seen in places, but not wrist deep.


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## GutPile

Grandpa D said:


> Then what is the reason for not allowing chumming in Utah?


The same reason crossbows are are not legal in Utah (except for a very few circumstances), misconception.


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## dubob

GutPile said:


> The same reason crossbows are are not legal in Utah (except for a very few circumstances), _*misconception*_.


I can whole heartedly agree with that statement; _*especially*_ concerning crossbows. The big game folks at DWR have their collective head in the sand on that one. :mrgreen:


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## Fishrmn

brookieguy1 said:


> Corn wrist-deep in Mud Creek Bay? I ain't buyin' it. Urban myth for sure. That would take hundreds of semi loads. Sorry. Never happened. I believe there was enough that it could easily be seen in places, but not wrist deep.


Don't care whether you believe it or not. We're not talking a carpet of it across the entire bay. There are depressions and holes and crevices. There were areas that got lots of fishing pressure, and lots of places where nobody anchored up to fish. It would settle in to the lowest point.


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## brookieguy1

Fishrmn said:


> brookieguy1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Corn wrist-deep in Mud Creek Bay? I ain't buyin' it. Urban myth for sure. That would take hundreds of semi loads. Sorry. Never happened. I believe there was enough that it could easily be seen in places, but not wrist deep.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't care whether you believe it or not. We're not talking a carpet of it across the entire bay. There are depressions and holes and crevices. There were areas that got lots of fishing pressure, and lots of places where nobody anchored up to fish. It would settle in to the lowest point.
Click to expand...

You better care! Just kidding Fishrmn. Kind of curious though, why would anyone be scuba-diving in Mud Creek Bay? 
Kind of reminds me of the urban myth stories revolving around every lake in Utah. They go about like this: A car went off the road off the dam at Deer Creek. They sent scuba divers down to investigate and they soon came back up replying " no way we're going back down there. There's fish down there that could easily swallow us." Horsecrap.


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## Fishrmn

When they were diving, there wasn't much to see. I think they were doing it as much to harass us on the boat.

I taught a group of guys in 1988 who kept going back to the South side of Strawberry Bay. They were harvesting strings of pop-gear from the old trees that got submerged when they joined Soldier Creek and Strawberry. When their supply started to dwindle they augmented the snagging potential of the trees. I gave them the evil eye and told them to knock it off. Once they had enough to decorate their apartment they lost interest.

As for the scary fish in Deer Creek, it's horsefeathers. But it helps make divers seem more macho. Or at least some of them think it does.


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## brookieguy1

"Augmented" the snagging potential huh? Kind of like submerging an old set of mattress springs in popular jigging areas?


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## Fishrmn

Kinda, sorta. Same concept, different technique.


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## Envenomation09

In California where Waterdog or Tiger salamander larvae were legal for bait many managed to get off the hook and because waterdogs have amazing healing abilities they lived and hybridized with the native species, the California tiger salamander now the California tiger salamander has a status of Vulnerable.


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## Packfish

Kind of reminds me of the urban myth stories revolving around every lake in Utah. They go about like this: A car went off the road off the dam at Deer Creek. They sent scuba divers down to investigate and they soon came back up replying " no way we're going back down there. There's fish down there that could easily swallow us." Horsecrap

I heard that they couldn't get the fish because everytime they tried he'd just roll the window up.


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