# Devastating news from the Stansburys



## ridgetop

It appears that there is a big die off happening right now with the Stansbury California Bighorn sheep herd.
Looks like they may have contracted a virus or pneumonia.
I heard that some deer hunters saw a young ram with a domestic sheep on the range last fall.
This news sure breaks my heart!
Most likely, we will see tags cut or the unit shut down all together.


----------



## Mallardhead12

That is terrible news. I saw a few while scouting for deer last year and it was an amazing experience! Especially so close to my house.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


----------



## Clarq

What a shame. :x Two questions:

1. What was a domestic sheep doing there???

2. If there are no tags offered for the 2016 season, do the hunters who applied there get an opportunity to apply somewhere else?


----------



## ridgetop

Clarq said:


> What a shame. :x Two questions:
> 
> 1. What was a domestic sheep doing there???
> 
> 2. If there are no tags offered for the 2016 season, do the hunters who applied there get an opportunity to apply somewhere else?


The domestic could have come the cedar mnt. range to the West. 
My guess would the DWR would give (1) tag this year and look at things for next year.
Not all the sheep will die from this but more than 50% could be effected.
On Mike's hunt this year, we were seeing very few mature rams and lambs. Which are usually the first to die off. So I'm guessing this may having been happening for about a year now.


----------



## johnnycake

That's terrible. In a perfect world we'd ban domestic sheep raising in States with wild sheep


----------



## 3arabians

johnnycake said:


> That's terrible. In a perfect world we'd ban domestic sheep raising in States with wild sheep


I know right!?! Didnt this happen to the flaming gorge herd a few years back?


----------



## MWScott72

Yes, I've been hearing the same news. In fact, during a class I was teaching for work this past Friday, one of the students said a friend of his has found 9 dead rams so far. This is horrible news, and if I remember correctly, the Goslin herd by Flaming Gorge had to be completely destroyed to make sure the virus was completely eradicated before building the herd up again.

Sure wish we would have seen that domestic sheep last fall. When I spoke to the biologist prior to the hunt, he mentioned the issue with a request to report the sheep if we found it. Unfortunately, intel on that range maggot was that it was further south on the Stansbury range from where we were concentrating our efforts.

And before I rile up any domestic sheep producers, I have nothing against those operations. Just wish we could keep them out of areas where there are wild sheep. They are devastating to bighorns!


----------



## goofy elk

Last week I heard the Nine Mile sheep herd may have the same problem....

NOT good..:!:


----------



## jsc

Clarq said:


> What a shame. :x Two questions:
> 
> 1. What was a domestic sheep doing there???
> 
> 2. If there are no tags offered for the 2016 season, do the hunters who applied there get an opportunity to apply somewhere else?


My dad applied for the Goslin mountain sheep hunt the year they shut that hunt down. He was notified by the DWR and was able to amend his hunt choice to a different unit. I would imagine those who applied for this hunt will get the same opportunity if no stansbury permits are offered.


----------



## gdog

The amount of time/effort and money put into these projects, its such a shame some wayward domestic sheep can have this effect. Can't the sheep ranchers be held accountable (as in damages to the BHS herd) for domestic sheep who get wayward and off there grazing allotments?


----------



## Vanilla

gdog said:


> The amount of time/effort and money put into these projects, its such a shame some wayward domestic sheep can have this effect. Can't the sheep ranchers be held accountable (as in damages to the BHS herd) for domestic sheep who get wayward and off there grazing allotments?


They absolutely should be held accountable! It's ridiculous.

I'm not going to be as diplomatic for domestic sheep herd---keep them out of friggin places they aren't supposed to be! There should be a mandatory kill on sight provision for those mountain maggots when they are off their allotment. They are no different than pike in Utah Lake. If anything, they are a lot worse.


----------



## Wes

Took a hike yesterday. These were found in one canyon. We know where there's a bunch more. Not looking good for this herd. Same thing happened in the Ruby Mountains , wiped out the entire herd
Wes


----------



## johnnycake

Here's a lovely hypothetical: sporting groups buy out all domestic sheep operations in the state and then the legislature enacts a ban on raising sheep within XX miles of bighorn habitat (public or private ground). A quick Google search shows the Utah sheep herd estimates at 290k, and a yearly industry of about $20 million. I think this would be an awesome goal to get SFW, MDF, RMEF, FNAWS etc motivated to achieve. Just start at one state and move on through to the others. It's a pipe dream no doubt, but hey, we can hope. I know Alaska is trying to require really stringent fencing and state of the art containment systems for any sheep or goat operation within 15 miles of Dall Sheep habitat---and they've never had an outbreak of pneumonia. If they can do it, surely we can figure something out.


----------



## Jmgardner

Yes. Let's end an entire industry in the state because it gets in the way of our fun. And people on here say ranchers feel/act entitled....

I've never raised sheep in my life, and I'm all about conservation, but the above idea is about the worst I've read. Let's leep a little perspective


----------



## DallanC

Jmgardner said:


> Yes. Let's end an entire industry in the state because it gets in the way of our fun. And people on here say ranchers feel/act entitled....
> 
> I've never raised sheep in my life, and I'm all about conservation, but the above idea is about the worst I've read. Let's leep a little perspective


Yea I agree, especially when the first reference to domestic sheep in this thread is "I heard some guys saw a sheep..." no proof. Yet here we go with the pitch forks and knee-jerk policy changes.

Look, bighorns are NEAT animals, MAJESTIC... but frankly they are one of the weakest big game species in America. They simply are susceptible to too many things that can kill them. DWR blows insane money trying to keep these herds established, when they just die off too quickly (anyone remember how long the first AF Canyon bighorns lasted? 3 weeks? Cougars had a hayday eating them. DWR blew hundreds of thousands to bring htem in, they turn into cougar crap... DWR brings in houndsman and killed 30 (I think it was) in a several mile section... THEN transplanted in even more, for more hundreds of thousands of dollars).

Just dont get it. Honestly we should breed up some more disease resistant big horns and transplant those... cuz what we have now is hard to justify when the entire herds wipe repeatedly.

-DallanC


----------



## Springville Shooter

DNR should go collect the deadheads and auction them off. Anything related to sheep is big $$$. Hence the reason why they get so much attention.-------SS


----------



## johnnycake

I disagree, we do it all the time in this country to preserve, conserve and restore various wildlife. Destroy an industry? My hypo would actual compensate them, but I understand there is a lifestyle there. There are far less "useful"/" valuable " animals that have destroyed far larger industries in this country. The Delta smelt, fairy shrimp, and a species of snail darter all come to mind and all without compensation systems for the damaged industries. Why should an industry that is scientifically shown to be the primary culprit for the collapse of an iconic big game species across the west be allowed to continue benefiting from public lands? Pioneer accounts claim bands of hundreds of wild sheep roamed all over this state, but within 50 years they were almost extinct. That there were millions of sheep being raised all over the state, well let's just ignore that. When BP blew the Macondo well, they had to pay out over a billion in industry compensation and ecological recovery. We forced many industrial manufacturing industries to close because they were causing rivers to spontaneously combust. 

So, when numerous studies show that a single contact between domestic and wild sheep has an overwhelming rate of mortality for the wild sheep, why would we allow the invasive domestic species to continue causing a situation that is like unto rivers self combusting?


----------



## Iron Bear

I'm not sure if it's been studied but contact between humans and large wild sheep rams usually ends poorly for the sheep.


----------



## Jmgardner

Iron Bear said:


> I'm not sure if it's been studied but contact between humans and large wild sheep rams usually ends poorly for the sheep.


YES!! i mean lets be real. anger can be shown because we care about conservation. but a lot of this anger is getting mad because domestic sheep interaction may or may not kill sheep, preventing hunters from being able to... kill sheep.


----------



## Clarq

Jmgardner said:


> YES!! i mean lets be real. anger can be shown because we care about conservation. but a lot of this anger is getting mad because domestic sheep interaction may or may not kill sheep, preventing hunters from being able to... kill sheep.


Meh, I'll most likely never kill a sheep in Utah. I still want them around, though (I just headed to Antelope Island yesterday for the sake of watching some through the spotting scope). Buying out the entire sheep ranching industry may not be a realistic option to pursue, but keeping domestic sheep away from bighorn sheep habitat is a realistic option and a worthy goal IMO.


----------



## johnnycake

Jmgardner said:


> YES!! i mean lets be real. anger can be shown because we care about conservation. but a lot of this anger is getting mad because domestic sheep interaction may or may not kill sheep, preventing hunters from being able to... kill sheep.


Yeah, those pesky hunters indiscriminately killing lambs, ewes, immature and mature rams...yup, totally the same thing.

As for whether "domestic sheep interaction may or may not kill sheep" here's some reading material, spoiler alert: the wild sheep almost always die after even minimal contact with domestic sheep.

http://www.emwh.org/pdf/wildlife di...nd Goats and Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep.pdf

His citations are also excellent resources btw.

I get that buying out the industry is out there. But as long as public grazing leases remain so far below market value, I think we should brainstorm as many options as possible. If you haven't heard about Alaska's proposal, I think it is a pretty solid one that allows ranchers to continue raising sheep/goats only if they can properly minimize the risks of exposure to wild sheep. Will it put some of them out of business? Most likely. But, where human actions have a profound effect of a given species the economics concept of "least cost avoider" are very fitting, and in this case the rancher's are the proper bearer of the burden. AK Proposal 90


----------



## Packout

Very troubling news, Ridge. I like the idea of rams butting heads on mountains. I wonder if they should still issue permits if the sheep are going to die.

Sheep are a fickle creature to grow. They can get disease within their own herd and tip over with no domestic contact. When the UDWR transplanted bighorns from different herds they carried diseases that killed each other. The UDWR has been warning of a die-off of concentrated desert bighorn herds for the past few years. 

Ridge-- was it you who posted a video of a ram interacting with a dead mule deer? I wonder if sheep can contract disease from other animals-- such as a deer which dies of disease. 

At any rate, this news stinks. Thanks for the update.


----------



## ridgetop

Packout said:


> Very troubling news, Ridge. I like the idea of rams butting heads on mountains. I wonder if they should still issue permits if the sheep are going to die.
> 
> Sheep are a fickle creature to grow. They can get disease within their own herd and tip over with no domestic contact. When the UDWR transplanted bighorns from different herds they carried diseases that killed each other. The UDWR has been warning of a die-off of concentrated desert bighorn herds for the past few years.
> 
> Ridge-- was it you who posted a video of a ram interacting with a dead mule deer? I wonder if sheep can contract disease from other animals-- such as a deer which dies of disease.
> 
> At any rate, this news stinks. Thanks for the update.


The dead deer/ram video I took was of a deer that had been wounded and not recovered during the rifle hunt. I've heard from people that deer hunt the Northern end of the Stansburys that there are very few deer and elk compared to what was there just 5 or 6 years ago. So maybe it might be a bigger problem than just the BH sheep verses domestic.


----------



## MWScott72

I think the studies are pretty much air tight on what happens when domestic sheep interact with wild sheep. I suck at gambling, but if someone were to bet me a large sum of money that a herd of bighorns would not contract pneumonia or some other virus from contact with domestic sheep, I'd take that bet every time...and die a rich man.

I find it hard to take out an entire industry, struggling as it is, for bighorns in the short term. I will say there is no reason not to effect change in the long term. Phase out grazing subsidies over time, increase grazing fees on alotments that are within XX miles of a bighorn herd. Mandate secure fencing around the domestic sheep herds, and levy substantial fines if those sheep escape. Over time, changes such as these would move grazing alotments for sheep AWAY from bighorn habitats due to cost of compliance, or would engender more controls over the industry and would lead to far fewer of these herd die-offs.


----------



## Lonetree

There is a whole lot more to it than just domestic sheep. That is certainly a piece of the pneumonia outbreaks as domestic sheep are carriers of the particular variants of cytotoxic pneumonia that big horn sheep are the most susceptible to. But some of the biggest die offs, including pneumonia die offs have occurred in the complete absence of domestic sheep. Like these ones: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/11-whiskey-mountain-wy/

Whiskey Mountain used to be the source for most bighorn transplants across the West until these die offs started to occur in the early '90s there. They have since affected most of the West. The healthiest bighorn sheep in the lower 48 stay at higher elevations in the Tetons, and come no where near anything that is even in view of a pesticide sprayed area.

American fork canyon and flaming gorge were mentioned in all of this. Neither of these synchronous die offs included domestic sheep contact. The sheep in both of these cases died off at the same time as their parent herd in Montana.

American fork: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/7-provo-peak-ut/
Flaming George: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/goslin_mtn/

BTW, Bishop's PLI draws a line through the middle of the Uintas protecting domestic sheep grazing forever preventing any serious big horn populations from gaining a broad foothold, except to the far East near Flaming Gorge. But as those sheep continue to spread West as they are currently doing, and have been doing for the last several years, domestic sheep contact will nullify their existence in the Unitas under Bishop's plan. There is currently comment on this occurring within the Forest Service on these grazing allotments, and the preliminary comment period has already passed. I have not seen any "conservation orgs" submit comment. I know that BHA is in the loop on this, but last I checked they could not even bring themselves to pick up a pen and add their signature to a brief asking the FS to halt domestic sheep grazing in the Uintas. But then again, that's what you get with former wildlife refuge managers.....

And as for the Stansburys, I all but called this two years ago. http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/25-stansbury-mountains-ut/ This page on the Oquirrhs is erroneously still labeled Stansbury in the URL, because that is were we started, on a project in the Stansburys, but then shifted to another one in the Oquirrhs. This is partly because there had been so many of these in the last few years, it became a game of where do you start, what do you document?

In Wes's pictures you will see that it is a burn area. Next to winter ranges, wildlife refuges, and sage grouse habitat, burns rank highly on the list of areas that get treated with herbicides. I guarantee you there is pesticide treatments in the vicinity of those sheep, there is every time. Get used to this, there is more to come.

In the case of disease and die offs, it is simple immuno-suppressant activity. In the case of many of the other things we have seen drive the last 20 years of this cycle it is far more complex and involves genetic mutations that we just beginning to unravel.

I know most of you don't subscribe to this, but like I keep telling everyone, explain the last 20 years of this. We did not see these sheep die offs across the entire West, or mineral deficiencies, or malformed reproductive organs, or underbites, or a dozen other things, that came on concurrent with a sharp decline in wildlife numbers that precipitated the last 20 years of population suppression. In the '50s and '60s, in the presence of domestic sheep, we were growing transplanted bighorn herds to 500 animals, but now we can't? You have to go back and look at what changed.......

We started to see deer numbers slip below what wildlife managers were trying to influence 40 years ago. They were holding multi state symposiums in the 1970s to address these declines http://rutalocura.com/files/1976-Mule_Deer_Decline_in_the_West.pdf . But these declines continued for the next 20 years, until they crashed hard in the early 1990s, like allot of wildlife populations did. This is correlative to the onset of widespread pesticide use in the late '60s, and a corresponding increase in the late '80s/early '90s.

This quote from Yellowstone on their weed management sums it all up and parallels everyone else's plans over the last 40 years:_ "These techniques are already in use in the park. Reinhart said workers have been treating invasive plants for the past four decades, but the program became more active 20 years ago." http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/yellowstone_national_park/yellowstone-park-finalizes-weed-control-plan/article_cda49890-e2d4-11e2-9d99-001a4bcf887a.html

_Yeah, yeah, yeah I know, it is probably lions, coyotes, or bears oh my! or too many hunters, or point creep, or what ever the current theme is. _

_My point is that it is surely something, as evidenced by this and thousands of other cases over the last 20/40 years. But I have yet to see a comprehensive proposal that does not ignore massive amounts of data and history to explain any of this contrary to what I have proposed. _
_


----------



## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> The dead deer/ram video I took was of a deer that had been wounded and not recovered during the rifle hunt. I've heard from people that deer hunt the Northern end of the Stansburys that there are very few deer and elk compared to what was there just 5 or 6 years ago. So maybe it might be a bigger problem than just the BH sheep verses domestic.


You might be on to something...............


----------



## Iron Bear

Maybe the $20 million dollar wool industry could buy out the $500k wild sheep hunts. 

I'm mean let's not screw the DWR. They will be compensated.


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree said:


> You might be on to something...............


How about doing some of your own research on this area?
If interested, I can PM you the Tooele County biologist's contact information.


----------



## Iron Bear

But guys are still lining up for 10 or more years to get a chance at a cat there. 

Must be a good hunt.


----------



## Vanilla

I have never put an application in for a BH hunt. Unless I am the luckiest person alive, I won't ever do that in my lifetime, either. My feelings on domestic sheep and culling their overreaching presence on public lands has nothing to do with my ability to hunt a bighorn. So those saying that I would end a ranching operation just so I can hunt BHS can get off that fallacious bandwagon pretty quickly. 

I can stand going out into the forest and coming across a giant pack of mountain maggots, and then standing face to face with one of their dogs. Way too many abuses to the land and resources by irresponsible lease holders for me to be on board with them. Plus, some of these people are the same people working to take away my way of life with hunting and fishing as well. Not all ranchers fit this bill, but some do. 

If you have a grazing allotment and lease, great. If you stay within the legal bounds, you're good to go. If you exceed that allotment, lease, or your animals go beyond what/where is allowed, you should be liable for any damage caused, including a kill off of a wild sheep herd. Period. That is called personal or individual accountability. I know...kind of a lost principle in our world today. 

And if your sheep are off your allotted area and in bighorn habitat, they should be killed.


----------



## Bax*

This is a really interesting read fellas. I was really surprised to see Wes' pictures given that this is in one canyon.

I don't know a whole lot about BH sheep and the challenges they face but have always admired them immensely. 

I didn't see too much speculation on root causes aside from domestic sheep. Is the inference that domestic sheep are overgrazing thereby starving out the BH sheep, or is the inference more so related to disease transmission?


----------



## johnnycake

Lonetree, interesting stuff. Your link doesn't actually have any information as to what caused the pneumonia outbreak. I was living in Cedar Hills from 2006-2011 and personally watched, on more than one occasion (which I reported to the DWR), the bighorns in the yard and next to the pen of the guy on Canyon road who kept 10-20 sheep on his property. I think he eventually lost a portion his property to eminent domain when they redid the canal, and no longer has sheep there. As for the others you mentioned, I have not looked into them. 

As for the lamb/wool industry in Utah, it has reduced by 1/2 in the past 25 years and the trend is pretty strong that it is going away eventually. I just want to encourage and accelerate that inevitable collapse. I only applied for a sheep tag for the first time this year, and have zero expectation of ever getting to hunt one in Utah. That being said, I loved watching the bighorns up AF canyon growing up, whenever I'm in southern Utah and see desert bighorns I am mesmerized. They are simply incredible in my estimation, and worth trying to protect. Between the public grazing problems, the rate of disease transmission, and the challenge to compete with Australian/New Zealand and other countries, there is no room in the Western US for public sheep grazing.


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> Lonetree, interesting stuff. Your link doesn't actually have any information as to what caused the pneumonia outbreak. I was living in Cedar Hills from 2006-2011 and personally watched, on more than one occasion (which I reported to the DWR), the bighorns in the yard and next to the pen of the guy on Canyon road who kept 10-20 sheep on his property. I think he eventually lost a portion his property to eminent domain when they redid the canal, and no longer has sheep there. As for the others you mentioned, I have not looked into them.
> 
> As for the lamb/wool industry in Utah, it has reduced by 1/2 in the past 25 years and the trend is pretty strong that it is going away eventually. I just want to encourage and accelerate that inevitable collapse. I only applied for a sheep tag for the first time this year, and have zero expectation of ever getting to hunt one in Utah. That being said, I loved watching the bighorns up AF canyon growing up, whenever I'm in southern Utah and see desert bighorns I am mesmerized. They are simply incredible in my estimation, and worth trying to protect. Between the public grazing problems, the rate of disease transmission, and the challenge to compete with Australian/New Zealand and other countries, there is no room in the Western US for public sheep grazing.


The cause of which pneumonia outbreak? They are all caused by pneumonia......

But in all seriousness, the Whiskey mountain pneumonia cases were accompanied by selenium deficiencies, which predispose bighorns to disease. There were several triggers to those die offs, but ALL were preceded by recent herbicide application to these sheep's winter range. The way in which herbicides bring about selenium deficiencies is spelled out in the link on Whiskey Mountain.

The synchronous Prove Peak, Goslin, and the Bitterroot die offs all occurred during a very cold spell. Many of these sheep were related, the Goslin and Provo sheep had been supplemented with sheep from the Bitterroot 2 years earlier. They all died off at the same time. Pnuemonia is ALWAYS a secondary infection, it may be the final nail in the coffin, but it is never the first. The severe cold associated with those die offs is probably key, because in the case of selenium deficiencies and associated thyroid disorders, there is an extreme lack of cold tolerance.

I know the Provo peak sheep and their parent herd had thyroid disruption and resulting epigenetic congenital mutations that cause these disorders. If the Bitterroot sheep were affected, then the Goslin sheep were as well. This is part of what predisposes these sheep to disease, and is a huge factor in driving related mineral deficiencies. So all of those sheep shared allot of genetic and epigenetic problems. There were no problems until the MT sheep were brought into those herds.

The Goslin herd was killed off, but the remanants of the Provo herd are sitting on road sides licking magnesium chloride off the road just like all the deer, with the same epigenetic mutations I have been studying for several years now.

I am currently writing a paper with a few other people on the genetics involved in this. It is some very specific mechanisms involved, and in 90% of the cases we have looked at it is highly correlated to specific pesticide exposure, over and over again. These mechanisms are huge drivers of disease.

Yes, domestic sheep can be a part of all of this(carriers of specific strains of pneumonia), but we have more die offs where we can show there is no domestic sheep, than we have die offs where we can point at domestic sheep.

Bottom line, I'm pointing at pesticide driven disease cycles via epigenetics. Domestic sheep could explain sheep die offs, but they can't explain low deer and elk numbers. And Stansbury looks like the poster child of the pesticide lobby. If you start circling potential pesticide application sites in Google Earth, you end up painting the whole mountain by the time you get done. If you look at fire overlays alone, you almost can't see anything else.


----------



## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> How about doing some of your own research on this area?
> If interested, I can PM you the Tooele County biologist's contact information.


You can PM him my contact info if you like. I don't bother talking to the DWR anymore, they are not interested in fixing, let alone understanding, any of these problems. They just tow the special interest line. In some cases I can't blame the guys on the ground, it is a matter of maintaining their jobs, I know enough retired guys to know how that plays out. The DWR is not structured or properly incentivized to deal with these kinds of things, which sucks for hunters.

If anyone wants to PM me the coords of those carcasses, or take me out there, I'll burn my card on your fuel and lunch. When wildlife die in mass like this, there is a reason. There is usually a back story behind that reason.


----------



## johnnycake

Yes lonetree, the bacterial pneumonia that infected the sheep. The question was about where the bacteria came from, etc. I'd be curious what studies you could show that indicate that there are more pneumonia die offs with no proven domestic contact than die offs linked to domestic sheep. I wrote a paper on public grazing and I addressed this issue a bit there, but I found the opposite to be true in the studies I read. But I would be very interested to see what you have.


----------



## MWScott72

Bax* said:


> This is a really interesting read fellas. I was really surprised to see Wes' pictures given that this is in one canyon.
> 
> I don't know a whole lot about BH sheep and the challenges they face but have always admired them immensely.
> 
> I didn't see too much speculation on root causes aside from domestic sheep. Is the inference that domestic sheep are overgrazing thereby starving out the BH sheep, or is the inference more so related to disease transmission?


Bax-
It's disease transmission not overgrazing. Overgrazing is kind of a moot point where bighorns are concerned. If there are domestic sheep present in even small numbers within a bighorn area, bighorns tend to contract various fatal maladies, pneumonia among them.

Can't remember who questioned the deer hunter's reports of a domestic sheep hanging with a young ram on the Stansburys this fall. I have a hard time discounting it though...it isn't difficult to recognize the disimilarities between the two. They are quite obvious.


----------



## Bax*

MWScott72 said:


> Bax-
> It's disease transmission not overgrazing. Overgrazing is kind of a moot point where bighorns are concerned. If there are domestic sheep present in even small numbers within a bighorn area, bighorns tend to contract various fatal maladies, pneumonia among them.
> 
> Can't remember who questioned the deer hunter's reports of a domestic sheep hanging with a young ram on the Stansburys this fall. I have a hard time discounting it though...it isn't difficult to recognize the disimilarities between the two. They are quite obvious.


Thanks for the clarification. I honestly hoped that disease wouldn't be the answer. Seems much harder to reach a simple resolution on 

Are free grazing sheep held to some sort of vaccination standard to help mitigate exposure to native species?


----------



## johnnycake

As far as I know, there is no vaccine to mitigate the pneumonia issue between domestic and wild sheep.

Moreover, the ewes that do survive the pneumonia end up having lambs that almost never survive.


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> Yes lonetree, the bacterial pneumonia that infected the sheep. The question was about where the bacteria came from, etc. I'd be curious what studies you could show that indicate that there are more pneumonia die offs with no proven domestic contact than die offs linked to domestic sheep. I wrote a paper on public grazing and I addressed this issue a bit there, but I found the opposite to be true in the studies I read. But I would be very interested to see what you have.


I already pointed you to the granddaddy of them all, Whiskey mountain. Arrow mountain and Whiskey mountain sub herds are the most monitored and studied bighorn herds on Earth. I have worked with several of the researchers that have studied them. There has never been a domestic sheep anywhere near them.

The synchronous Goslin, Provo, and Bitterroot(Sula) die off also had no confirmed domestic sheep contact. Goslin and Provo were chosen as sites to establish bighorn sheep because of the absence of domestic sheep within a 10 mile buffer zone.

We know now that bighorn sheep can be carriers of the the strains of pneumonia that are the most devastating to them. It requires certain virulence and cyto-toxicity of these bacteria to kill bighorns though. So if you weaken them, via thyroid disruption(documented), which predisposes them to pneumonia via upper respiratory tract weakness, then all it takes is some severe cold, malnutrition, etc to start a die off.

In the case of domestic sheep that are carrying the particularly virulent strains of pneumonia that are fatal to bighorns, then contact will drive a die off. We are talking about two separate, but some times related things.

This is why domestic sheep contact occurs all the time with no resulting die offs, while other times contact occurs and we are looking a mass die offs within a few weeks. The pneumonia is already there, it has always been there. It is the other extenuating circumstances coupled with pneumonia that drive die offs. Many die offs, even those with pneumonia, are typically accompanied by many other things. Like I said before, fatal pneumonia is almost always a secondary infection or condition, it can't drive itself.


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> As far as I know, there is no vaccine to mitigate the pneumonia issue between domestic and wild sheep.
> 
> Moreover, the ewes that do survive the pneumonia end up having lambs that almost never survive.


There are pneumonia vaccines for domestic sheep, but it has only recently been determined which strains, and why those strains are so fatal to bighorn sheep. Plus there are other factors that drive pneumonia spread from domestic sheep to bighorns like lung worms, while secondary, it is a piece of this.

Lung worms are another cause of pneumonia out breaks in bighorns that have never made contact with domestic sheep. Again, we have another pesticide tie in where pesticide use has been shown to alter ecology in the favor of things like snails, and the parasites they carry. In the case of lung worms in bighorn sheep, they are carried by snails that are ingested by bighorns.

In the case of lambs that don't survive after pneumonia out breaks. That is not the pneumonia, that is the thyroid disruption driven by pesticide induced Postpartum thyroiditis. You do not see the same phenomenon of suppression after pneumonia outbreaks in other animals. This failure to thrive in bighorns after and during die offs has been shown to be connected to selenium deficiencies. For those that know cattle, it mirrors the reduced fecundity, symptoms, and corresponding selenium deficiencies seen in cattle with "Weak calf syndrome". The largest cases of which, in the last few years, in Northern Utah have occurred on ranches with the highest amount of brush removal via herbicide spraying. We have been seeing this in greater and greater numbers all over the West the last few years, which is why you can buy pallet loads of cobalt and Se90 blocks at the feed stores. It is not because I have been talking about it, it is because that is what the lab work says.


----------



## johnnycake

That's interesting stuff. I question your statement on domestic sheep contact occurring all the time with no resulting die offs. The paper I already posted and the one below, show between an 80-95% fatality rate after 1 exposure to domestic sheep.

E. Garde, et al., “Examining the risk of disease transmission between wild Dall's sheep and mountain goats, and introduced domestic sheep, goats, and llamas in the Northwest Territories”, The Northwest Territories Agricultural Policy Framework and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories, Canada. 2005.

While you are right that the pneumonia is a secondary infection or condition, where I think you are overminimizing the cause-effect relationship is this: HIV doesn't kill people directly, but causes people to die from other diseases such as the common cold. What you are trying to say then is that we shouldn't be worried about HIV, we really need to fight the common cold. Here, the HIV is the bacterial transfer that sparks the secondary pneumonia. 

another good paper that addresses the historic collapse of wild sheep, and the problem with domestic sheep interaction. I could be wrong, but there were/are lots of sheep run on land at the mouths of Spanish Fork, hobble creek and a few other canyons in that area. Contact would absolutely have been possible. 

Nancy N. Fitzsimmons, et al., Population History, Genetic Variability, and Horn Growth in Bighorn Sheep, Conservation Biology Vol 9, No 2 314, 317 April 1995.


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> That's interesting stuff. I question your statement on domestic sheep contact occurring all the time with no resulting die offs. The paper I already posted and the one below, show between an 80-95% fatality rate after 1 exposure to domestic sheep.
> 
> E. Garde, et al., "Examining the risk of disease transmission between wild Dall's sheep and mountain goats, and introduced domestic sheep, goats, and llamas in the Northwest Territories", The Northwest Territories Agricultural Policy Framework and Environment and Natural Resources, Government of the Northwest Territories, Canada. 2005.
> 
> While you are right that the pneumonia is a secondary infection or condition, where I think you are overminimizing the cause-effect relationship is this: HIV doesn't kill people directly, but causes people to die from other diseases such as the common cold. What you are trying to say then is that we shouldn't be worried about HIV, we really need to fight the common cold. Here, the HIV is the bacterial transfer that sparks the secondary pneumonia.
> 
> another good paper that addresses the historic collapse of wild sheep, and the problem with domestic sheep interaction. I could be wrong, but there were/are lots of sheep run on land at the mouths of Spanish Fork, hobble creek and a few other canyons in that area. Contact would absolutely have been possible.
> 
> Nancy N. Fitzsimmons, et al., Population History, Genetic Variability, and Horn Growth in Bighorn Sheep, Conservation Biology Vol 9, No 2 314, 317 April 1995.


You have to temper my statement about contact with time and space. I'm not saying that contact does not drive pneumonia, it absolutely does, no ifs, and or buts.

HIV: NO, what I'm saying is we need to be worried about what causes and drives these die offs. So yes in the case of domestic sheep contact that is the driving force behind those _pneumonia_ die offs.

But in a vast number of other cases, some of the largest by the way, they are not driven by domestic sheep contact. We are talking about the meta population declines of the last 20 years in bighorn sheep, that mirror the same declines seen in antelope, deer, elk(area dependent)sage grouse, etc.

We see these bighorn die offs associated with related conditions of other big game, across a similar time frame, all associated with pesticide use, concurrent with it's increased use 20 years ago. If anyone is still hung up on selenium deficiencies, just ignore that to a large degree, it is symptomatic of the greater problem, it is only partially causal.

It is symptomatic of thyroid disruption and disorders that have plagued many bighorn populations that have suffered non domestic sheep related declines. We know what to do about domestic sheep contact. But in the other cases the root cause still needs to be addressed, which is pesticide driven, epigenetic disruption of the endocrine and reproductive systems of these animals.

The domestic sheep run around the mouths of Spanish fork canyon and Hobble creek are old news, they were discontinued before bighorns were brought back in. But they would of no doubt been a piece of what extirpated bighorns decades ago.

We see congenital hypothyroidism in not only suppressed deer numbers of the last 20 years, but we see it show up in bighorns(all four cases I have brought up)20 years ago as we start to see the West wide die offs of them. And thyroid disruption predisposes not only to pneumonia, but everything else we see in bighorn die offs, declines, and population suppression.

Can anyone explain how big game across the West ended up with such a high prevalence of thyroid disruption, specifically congenital hypothyroidism?


----------



## Vanilla

Lonetree said:


> Can anyone explain how big game across the West ended up with such a high prevalence of thyroid disruption, specifically congenital hypothyroidism?


Pesticides!

Can I get some swag for that answer?


----------



## Lonetree

Vanilla said:


> Pesticides!
> 
> Can I get some swag for that answer?


Hey! That's my answer.... Correct, but that's only the beginning of the equation. We'll have to ask the judges about the swag on that one. :grin:

Interesting, but related side note, the genes involved in this are also involved in antler development, and malformations of male reproductive anatomy.

I guess what I'm getting at, is can anyone explain it otherwise?

The reason this matters, is because we know that the management of the last 20 years does not work, but over the last several years we have just doubled down on it. At what point do we change what we have been doing, and address the actual problems on the ground of hunting and wildlife declines? Or do we just keep going downwards in a death spiral?

If anyone wants to offer the coords of those sheep, or take me up on a trip out there, send me a PM in the next day or so, I won't be on here long.


----------



## Vanilla

Judges liked my answer. Swag! Swag! Swag! Swag!


----------



## johnnycake

Vanilla said:


> Judges liked my answer. Swag! Swag! Swag! Swag!


You get a deformed testicle! And you get a deformed testicle! And you get a deformed testicle!!!!! Oprah out!


----------



## Vanilla

johnnycake said:


> You get a deformed testicle! And you get a deformed testicle! And you get a deformed testicle!!!!! Oprah out!


Another one? Son of a...


----------



## Lonetree

Jonny, etal.

Here is a better link to the Whiskey mountain info, no wonder you had the questions you did. The other website is loading up old versions of pages, including an incomplete/older whiskey mountain page.

http://rutalocura.com/Whiskey Most of the important stuff is there.


----------



## johnnycake

Thanks, I'll look at that later. Yeah, the other links pretty much said nothing, hence my confusion


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> Thanks, I'll look at that later. Yeah, the other links pretty much said nothing, hence my confusion


Sorry about that, there was others confused as well, and it was not until I looked at the page for a reference to respond to someones question, that I figured out why.

Dam innerwebz, can't tell if it's tubes or trucks.........or trucks in tubes?!


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree, it seems like the North end of the Stansburys is just what your looking for to do more research on your theory at a local level.
In 2010, there was probably no one that spent more time on that part of the mnt. than myself. 
I saw an unusually high amount of cactus bucks during that time. 
I saw a lot more deer and elk in that area during that time period compared to now.
It might pay to look into Tooele County and BLM records to see how much weed control they have done in that area.
Also, there is a compose farm at the base of the mnt. that is produced from chicken manure from a nearby chicken farm.
There is several hundred acres of swampy area right around the base of the mnt. too.
Which produce a lot of mosquitos and the manure farm produces house flies by the millions.
I wonder how much spraying of chemicals is done in the area to keep the insects down?
Do they spray weed control from an air craft or is it all done from the road side?


----------



## Lonetree

Ridgetop

Yeah, if you were seeing cactus bucks and abnormal antlers, then that is where I start getting really suspicious. Here is a preliminary piece that is getting put together about antlers, and epigenetic expression: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/antlers/ Some of this was to explain some connections to people that did not understand the role of antlers in deer biology, we spoke the same language until antlers would get brought into the mix.

The genetic root of several of the congenital malformations we see in deer, elk, moose, and sheep, including congenital hypothyroidism(underbites) and malformed testicles and scrotums, and antlers is the same mechanisms. Pesticides are one of the only explanations for the large scale presence of these things across the entire West showing up in wildlife.

I wondered what the manure facility was from Google Earth, it looks like it has been expanded in the last several years. If there is allot of open water, and they are using insecticides in the water for mosquitoes, that could be an issue, we recently found this in areas of South America. Or biocides in irrigation water. That is my #1 suspect for the collapse of Ogden deer(biocides in irrigation water), along with several others. Mosquito control is usually road side fogging. And we don't have any solid info on wildlife malformations associated with it. But road side weed control is the most highly correlated pesticide use associated with wildlife malformations.

In the case of insecticides like diflubenzuron I would expect to see retained velvet, and some corkscrewing and "wiggling" in willowy antlers. While we would see more classical pincushions with lots of small irregular points and large pedicle masses with certain herbicides. Given the multiple fires, and jurisdictions, it is probably a hodgepodge of malformations in between those. But if there are some specifics, it start to narrow things down some.

This all plays out different in deer, elk, and sheep. When it comes down to disease with sheep, it tends to be sharp and concentrated, probably, mostly due to social structure, especially in the winter. Wes's pics show a couple of rams, which is interesting. Rams tend to die off at different rates depending on what is driving the die off. This is why we see Ram to Ewe ratios creep up before die offs, similar to buck to doe ratio increases in deer. This is why we see big mature rams left over and persist for years after a die off, with herd fecundity suppressed. Like what we see with the remnants of the Provo herd. Sheep biologists tell me that they suspect part of this difference between sheep and deer to be associated with annual horn verses antler growth. Buck deer have the same sharp onset of nutritional needs that affects health every spring/summer like pregnant does do. But in Bighorns we don't have the same thing because horn growth and demand differ biologically over the year from antler growth. Also, with thyroid disruption and diseases that they drive we see a 2:1 factor in the affects on females verses males.

What do/did the cactus bucks look like? And what kind of side to side asymmetry are/were you seeing? We see some very interesting regional patterns depending what is getting used.

I'll start digging into some of the specific spraying. The BLM is becoming more uncooperative on this, I may need to take over the BRBR to get the info we need. ;-)

And the location of those sheep, and where they tended to winter and summer, could help narrow things down allot. Sheep are so habitual, which really helps in things like this. Someone can PM that, I don't share sensitive info like that, there are plenty on this board that can attest to that. I have the GPS coords to allot of peoples honey holes, that I have never visited, or shared, and never will share, unless I am told I can for some reason.


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree, what's your email address?
You can PM it to me if you want. I can send you some pictures tonight when I get home. Most(90%) of the sheep reside North of Horseshoe springs in Skull Valley to I-80.


----------



## MWScott72

Really interesting stuff Lonetree. I'm going to go back and read that new Whiskey Mountain report you posted when I have time in the next day or so, but I have to say that your correlations between pesticide and herbicide use and subsequent die offs is fascinating. I hope you will follow up on this, as I agree with Ridgetop that this North Stansburys die-off and back history seems to fit your hypotheses to a "T".

I would like to get out and do some hiking around out there, and if I do so, and find anything, I will get you the coordinates.


----------



## Utahyounggun

This is terrible news and very interesting information. I was on the north end of the stansburys yesterday and I didn't see any sheep dead or alive, but I did see the dwr chasing In the helicopter. Now does anyone know if you could get the information of what the dwr was seeing from them? I'm curious as to if they were doing elk counts again or if this was about the bighorns. I did see them chase a few deer and a small herd of 15 elk. Tia.


----------



## littlebighorn

Lonetree,
I will jump into this interesting discussion and ask about the initial die of of bighorn sheep, when european settlers first arrived in the west. Lewis and Clark record that sheep were some of the most abundant wildlife that they encountered. This is well before pesticides were in the picture. So if the wild sheep demise was not the domestic sheep diseases that followed, then what is your theory on the cause?

My son and I have been in the middle of the tragic Stansbury sheep die off as well. My son spent several days out their locating and documenting dead sheep in January. He has been in touch with the local biologist, and helped them with a pneumonia swab sample from one sheep, and gave them gps coordinates to 8 carcasses. By the way, all but one were ram carcasses.

No doubt there are multiple factors that contribute to the delicate nature of wild sheep. But it is a sad to see a herd with such promise, take a nose dive.

By the way, while there may not be grazing rights in an area, there is no way to stop someone's domestic sheep pet from wandering off into the middle of a wild sheep herd. I have seen more than one of these pets intermingling with wild sheep, including the AF canyon herd. Two years ago the DWR killed a feral goat in the middle of a Zion Desert herd. So lots of possible culprits!


----------



## Catherder

I cannot authoritatively argue one way or the other with anything previously discussed and I will admit that I don't know a lot about the Stansbury range and have only been there once. However, in reading in the thread about both precipitous declines there in elk and deer, as well as the sheep, I can't help but wonder about another related possibility for these declines. Between Dugway, TAD, Energy solutions, the magnesium plant and others, Tooele county has become the nations toxic waste depository. Could the army or someone else have had another release of nerve agent or other nasty stuff that has decimated the herds? I can't help but wonder.

I read this book below a couple months ago. Found it fairly enlightening.

http://www.amazon.com/Canaries-Rim-Living-Downwind-West/dp/1859843212


----------



## Iron Bear

Yet the Stansbury is the most coveted cougar tag in the state. 

What a crazy coincidence. Cougar hunters don't really know whats going on in the hills.


----------



## Lonetree

littlebighorn said:


> Lonetree,
> I will jump into this interesting discussion and ask about the initial die of of bighorn sheep, when european settlers first arrived in the west. Lewis and Clark record that sheep were some of the most abundant wildlife that they encountered. This is well before pesticides were in the picture. So if the wild sheep demise was not the domestic sheep diseases that followed, then what is your theory on the cause?
> 
> My son and I have been in the middle of the tragic Stansbury sheep die off as well. My son spent several days out their locating and documenting dead sheep in January. He has been in touch with the local biologist, and helped them with a pneumonia swab sample from one sheep, and gave them gps coordinates to 8 carcasses. By the way, all but one were ram carcasses.
> 
> No doubt there are multiple factors that contribute to the delicate nature of wild sheep. But it is a sad to see a herd with such promise, take a nose dive.
> 
> By the way, while there may not be grazing rights in an area, there is no way to stop someone's domestic sheep pet from wandering off into the middle of a wild sheep herd. I have seen more than one of these pets intermingling with wild sheep, including the AF canyon herd. Two years ago the DWR killed a feral goat in the middle of a Zion Desert herd. So lots of possible culprits!


Early extirpation was definitely driven at least in part by domestic sheep and disease transmission. We still see that, be we also see lots of die offs with absolutely no domestic sheep contact.

If all we saw on the Stansbury's was a sheep die off, it would be easy to say that is all that is going on. And from a bighorn sheep biology point of view that holds true. But from an ecological point of view, we are looking at a whole lot more than just these sheep. It's been about 8 years ago that I first started into this, and it was about bighorn/domestic disease transmissions in the Wind Rivers, That took several turns, and revealed that there is much more to all of this.

I started focusing on that bigger picture 6 years ago, but it has only been the last 2 years that the pesticide use came into focus. Which was an idea I proposed and discarded myself, right here, about 4 years ago.

Some of this becomes a forest for the trees, chicken or egg thing sometimes. I am constantly reminding myself to step back and look at how something plays into the big picture.


----------



## Lonetree

Catherder said:


> I cannot authoritatively argue one way or the other with anything previously discussed and I will admit that I don't know a lot about the Stansbury range and have only been there once. However, in reading in the thread about both precipitous declines there in elk and deer, as well as the sheep, I can't help but wonder about another related possibility for these declines. Between Dugway, TAD, Energy solutions, the magnesium plant and others, Tooele county has become the nations toxic waste depository. Could the army or someone else have had another release of nerve agent or other nasty stuff that has decimated the herds? I can't help but wonder.
> 
> I read this book below a couple months ago. Found it fairly enlightening.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Canaries-Rim-Living-Downwind-West/dp/1859843212


All potential contributing factors, but magcorp typically drifts miles to the North, North East, of themselves. My father tracked those for years, because there output had the potential to interfere with their stack readings.

In the case of Whiskey mountain, acid rain was shown to be intrinsically tied into spring die offs, and mineral deficiencies. They did not explain everything, but very were essential triggers, and exacerbating factors to dies offs.

Thanks, for the heads up on the book.


----------



## Lonetree

Iron Bear said:


> Yet the Stansbury is the most coveted cougar tag in the state.
> 
> What a crazy coincidence. Cougar hunters don't really know whats going on in the hills.


And lions caused this sheep die off how?????? I don't think you understand the nature of these die offs. If it were lions, they would have killed the sheep off a long time ago, not all at once, like is/has been occurring.


----------



## Lonetree

MWScott72 said:


> Really interesting stuff Lonetree. I'm going to go back and read that new Whiskey Mountain report you posted when I have time in the next day or so, but I have to say that your correlations between pesticide and herbicide use and subsequent die offs is fascinating. I hope you will follow up on this, as I agree with Ridgetop that this North Stansburys die-off and back history seems to fit your hypotheses to a "T".
> 
> I would like to get out and do some hiking around out there, and if I do so, and find anything, I will get you the coordinates.


If I can show two things, I can follow up on this further, and include it in existing work that will get published. At a minimum it is on the hot list and will get attention.

The first thing is particular pesticides. So documentation of any use will help on that front.

The second is a laundry list of potential correlating factors, more than three(one in some cases), and it gets hard to come up with alternate explanations. I would really like to look at some lambs, and pictures of hooves might tell us something as well. Does anyone know if the DWR took blood samples? I would assume they did.

Another thing to keep in mind is why CA bighorns started to be used in the first place, for some transplants. One of which was supposed pneumonia resistance. Allot of this was based on the correlation of wet weather and pneumonia die offs. It is thought because of the wetter climates that California bighorns came from, that they may be more resistant.


----------



## VAPORPEST

What would they be treating in that area with pesticides. That area had that bad burn and that's when I seen the deer drop off. I have found several scorpions and *Tarantulas* in that area. I have seen the DWR in other ranges using an ATV and treating grass hoppers. But in them areas the deer herds seem to be doing great so they dont seem to be effected by what the DWR is treating. You should be able to get the EPA number and ratio that they are using and that would tell you tons.


----------



## ridgetop

When I first started seeing all the cactus bucks in 2010, I thought it may have been a side affect from Magcorp. I told some of my friends that I thought something in the soil was causing it but I really had no idea.

Iron Bear, I agree with you about lions killing there unfair share of Big Game but your off track on this subject.
Why is unit 18 one of the hardest to draw lion units?
Have you tried to hunt lions on the Stansburys?
I think it's because ....
1)the lions are very hard to hunt there.
2)the unit is close to the Salt Lake Valley
3)not very many tags are given out 
4)There are some older cats to be had because it is so hard to hunt and the limited tag numbers.

The Biologist told me that there was about 30 lions on the Oqquirrh/Stansbury unit. I would be willing to bet everything I own that there is close to 30 lions alone on the Stansbury side of the valley.
I think it's time to go kill some coyotes in this die off area.
There has to be some mighty fat dogs by now.


----------



## VAPORPEST

I was told by the cwmu operator for the heaston East they had 28 collared lions just on that range but that wont effect this herd. I bet 30 on the Oqquirrh/Stansbury unit is right. I have seen them all over the Vernon range on trail cameras. But I have seen more coyotes chasing deer in that area then cats.


----------



## Lonetree

VAPORPEST said:


> What would they be treating in that area with pesticides. That area had that bad burn and that's when I seen the deer drop off. I have found several scorpions and *Tarantulas* in that area. I have seen the DWR in other ranges using an ATV and treating grass hoppers. But in them areas the deer herds seem to be doing great so they dont seem to be effected by what the DWR is treating. You should be able to get the EPA number and ratio that they are using and that would tell you tons.


Grasshopper spraying has very distinct results on deer: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/10-lander-wy/

I don't really expect to see those specifics here, but _some_ overlap.


----------



## Lonetree

VAPORPEST said:


> I was told by the cwmu operator for the heaston East they had 28 collared lions just on that range but that wont effect this herd. I bet 30 on the Oqquirrh/Stansbury unit is right. I have seen them all over the Vernon range on trail cameras. But I have seen more coyotes chasing deer in that area then cats.


And what about these sheep????????


----------



## Lonetree

If this die off was underway in January, then I would suspect cold as the trigger. You see this when there is very cold temps but a lack of snow that allows sheep to winter at higher elevations.

This is not an issue by itself with healthy sheep. In the Tetons(very healthy sheep) they move up in the winter, not down. So in a case like Stansbury, this would be a trigger, with underlying health issues, not the cause. 

I'll check for Snotel or other temp data later tonight.


----------



## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> When I first started seeing all the cactus bucks in 2010, I thought it may have been a side affect from Magcorp. I told some of my friends that I thought something in the soil was causing it but I really had no idea.
> 
> Iron Bear, I agree with you about lions killing there unfair share of Big Game but your off track on this subject.
> Why is unit 18 one of the hardest to draw lion units?
> Have you tried to hunt lions on the Stansburys?
> I think it's because ....
> 1)the lions are very hard to hunt there.
> 2)the unit is close to the Salt Lake Valley
> 3)not very many tags are given out
> 4)There are some older cats to be had because it is so hard to hunt and the limited tag numbers.
> 
> The Biologist told me that there was about 30 lions on the Oqquirrh/Stansbury unit. I would be willing to bet everything I own that there is close to 30 lions alone on the Stansbury side of the valley.
> I think it's time to go kill some coyotes in this die off area.
> There has to be some mighty fat dogs by now.


Thanks, all details help.


----------



## VAPORPEST

I have never seen them treat grasshoppers in the area of the sheep. But I have seen them above lakepoint in the fields many times early in the year. I have seen that deer herd doing really well right now but maybe that effects them in a very slow way. (I will have to read that report you just sent). I just cant think of what pest they would treat in that area. They dont treat mosquitoes where they graze or drink. 

I have only seen one cat in that area of the sheep many years ago. After that fire I seen nothing until 2 years ago I have just started to see wildlife like rabbits, snakes,owls, scorpions and tarantulas come back into that area. The main water guzzler needs some help as well so they have better water source to drink. I have also found a dead ram this year in that area(few weeks back). I have hunted it many years for deer. I think with so many dying off its something bigger that has made them sick in a quick way. I seen a bighorn on the Vernon in 2010 that was with a wild sheep that had been living in that area for years. Its horns were wicked and it was so thick of wool. I tried to get an arrow in him but failed.


----------



## Lonetree

VAPORPEST said:


> I have never seen them treat grasshoppers in the area of the sheep. But I have seen them above lakepoint in the fields many times early in the year. I have seen that deer herd doing really well right now but maybe that effects them in a very slow way. (I will have to read that report you just sent). I just cant think of what pest they would treat in that area. They dont treat mosquitoes where they graze or drink.
> 
> I have only seen one cat in that area of the sheep many years ago. After that fire I seen nothing until 2 years ago I have just started to see wildlife like rabbits, snakes,owls, scorpions and tarantulas come back into that area. The main water guzzler needs some help as well so they have better water source to drink. I have also found a dead ram this year in that area(few weeks back). I have hunted it many years for deer. I think with so many dying off its something bigger that has made them sick in a quick way. I seen a bighorn on the Vernon in 2010 that was with a wild sheep that had been living in that area for years. Its horns were wicked and it was so thick of wool. I tried to get an arrow in him but failed.


As for pesticide spraying, road sides are top of the list, this includes FS and BLM roads. Fire areas, wildlife habitat projects, winter ranges, and logging sites, are all places that get lots of attention and weed spraying, so the number and concentration of fires is a big one. But there are several habitat projects as well out there.

Most of these would be the use of herbicides, insecticide spraying ranks lower on the radar, but does exist as an issue. With deer and elk, it does typically play out slower, unless you have a big trigger like a heavy winter. But with Bighorns this is the typical pattern, mass die off, usually with pneumonia involved. If they were not being looked at close before, allot of the associated issues get missed in the resulting die off that gets labeled as simply "_pneumonia_". But pneumonia does not drive itself. If there are domestic sheep, they are the driver, in their absence, there is something else driving it.


----------



## VAPORPEST

Very sad it wasn't caught earlier or tried some type of plan. Makes you sick seeing them die off so fast. So many bighorn OIL time guys that would have loved the chance to harvest one before they died.


----------



## Iron Bear

Lonetree said:


> And lions caused this sheep die off how?????? I don't think you understand the nature of these die offs. If it were lions, they would have killed the sheep off a long time ago, not all at once, like is/has been occurring.


Never said it was due to lions. But I find it interesting that a unit with such deer sheep and elk problems is a top notch cougar hunt.

I don't know why but I wonder. Usually cougar hunters want to hunt big toms. Usually you don't have big toms if you harvest a bunch. I'm not going to go research it but I'm guessing Stansbury has plenty of big cats.

But a cat only eats once a week on average so I wouldn't think they have anything to do with the dynamics on Stansbury.


----------



## ridgetop

Iron Bear said:


> Never said it was due to lions. But I find it interesting that a unit with such deer sheep and elk problems is a top notch cougar hunt.
> .


Did anyone say the entire unit was in trouble?
All we are talking about is an area of the Northern end of the Stansburys that is about 15-20 sq. miles big. 
Sometimes people read way to much into something that is not even spoken about.


----------



## Iron Bear

No worries I'm not saying chicken sh1t isn't the problem here.


----------



## Lonetree

Ridge, those pictures you sent are very consistent WRT the abnormal structure of the antlers. I've seen very similar structure in other deer from areas that we know were sprayed, and what they were sprayed with. Deer #1 has a very poor coat, and #2 is sporting a fibroma on his neck, which has become another common site in sprayed areas. If I had to guess, based on other areas where we know what was sprayed, I would hazard a guess at Imazapic or Sulfometuron Methyl. But many times there is a combination used depending on what they are trying to do. The more constant the abnormalities the fewer the herbicides they are exposed to typically. For example, in areas that get treated with herbicides A and B, you see abnormal structure, retained velvet, and the left side weak and under developed. Where as in a different area where you see herbicide C, and biocide A used, you see right side weakness, random points, incomplete bifurcation(syndactyly) but no retained velvet. Part of this can be associated with testicular malformations. This includes lack of testicular descent from anywhere along the course of descent, which starts near the kidneys, and also includes atrophy after birth. Some of the left/right symmetry is related to this as well, as testicular malformation is many times not symmetrical either. The reproductive malformations are rooted in the same gene families as underbites, as well as the antler development. The asymmetrical development has a related genetic component as well.

These genes are core epigenetic genes meaning they are influenced by environment. This is true both during fetal development, and through out life as well. Not only are they drivers of congenital malformations, they are drivers of disease later in life.

Those bucks have what I call neo-classical cactus racks. This is the big bases, and tall clustered(polydactyly) points. Classical differs only in the points being short, and typically sharper. This tends to be associated with reproductive tract malformations later in development, and/or neonatal atrophy.

Imazapic has become a favorite for cheat grass, and they are adding it to the glyph for phrag as well. If you go look at the label of Roundup 365 or Xtended, it has very little glyphosate in it, it is the Imazapic that makes it active for a year. That becomes the issue with some of these, some persist for very long periods of time. And they have varying degrees of attractiveness for wildlife. If you spray glyphosate on a roadside reflector post, porcupines will be on it in hours. Yet when you spray Veteran 720(2,4-D and Dicamba) same stuff used on Torrey rim(Whiskey winter range) there is a lag of as much as two weeks before it appears palatable, and then they really go after it.

I had a bighorn biologist contact me today to see if I would come talk to some F&G folks he works with. So while I have his ear I'll turn him onto this and see if he can offer any help. Pesticides are not his forte but sheep obviously are.

How much over lap is there between those cactus bucks home range, and the bighorns in this die off? I don't need exact coords or anything, but rather if they shared drainages, water spots, winter range, etc.

We see several things in those deer that we see in deer with congenital hypothyroidism. Thyroid disruption goes hand in hand with selenium deficiencies, and predisposes for pneumonia. I don't see any granite in the geology maps, but there may be other factors at play geologically as well.

Here is the tangled web we are looking at broken down. You insert different pesticides into the "pesticide exposure" slot, and you see different, but related outcomes. Every one of those lines and titles has several studies behind it supporting it's assertion. Currently I see this leaning to the diabetic side WRT what we see in the pictures of the deer you sent. The fibromas are not on this chart but they fall under the category of diabetes, and are a sign of insulin resistance.


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree, 
those cactus bucks were in the same area as the bighorn sheep.
The deer and elk started to disappear in 2011 to present time. 
Although I hunt a different area now, I have friends that have put out trail cams in that area and they mainly only got sheep on them the last couple years. 
I took my wife for a hike up to my old sheep camp last summer to get some supplies I had left up there buried in a bucket. We saw very little big game sign at all.
I was hoping that maybe the sheep had relocated the deer and elk because they don't like being around the sheep.
But I'm thinking that might not be the case now.
I've seen the sheep drinking at that swampy area around the compose plant before.
So if they have been spraying for weeds or frag in that area, I'm sure the animals have consumed some of it.


----------



## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> I've seen the sheep drinking at that swampy area around the compose plant before.


To the North(I assume), or the area East of the plant? That whole valley including the wetlands has had a lot a manipulation. Image progression of vegetation over the last few years looks very much like other areas that I know have been treated. It is all private, so hard to do much on the ground. Is there county or BLM roads that run through that ranch(Thousand Peaks).

Sheep can contract pneumonia from cattle. This is not high on the list of transmission, but the strains that sheep are susceptible to have been found in cattle, in association with sheep die offs. I think the one well documented case was in CO. So if you have herbicide use affecting these animals, and a disease reservoir, then you have all the makings for a pneumonia die off.


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree said:


> To the North(I assume), or the area East of the plant? That whole valley including the wetlands has had a lot a manipulation. Image progression of vegetation over the last few years looks very much like other areas that I know have been treated. It is all private, so hard to do much on the ground. Is there county or BLM roads that run through that ranch(Thousand Peaks).
> 
> Sheep can contract pneumonia from cattle. This is not high on the list of transmission, but the strains that sheep are susceptible to have been found in cattle, in association with sheep die offs. I think the one well documented case was in CO. So if you have herbicide use affecting these animals, and a disease reservoir, then you have all the makings for a pneumonia die off.


That cove around and to the South of the manure plant is called Timpie. It is filled with cattle from fall to spring and so is the Western slopes of the Stansburys. I would think it would be a problem with cattle eating treated vegetation. Wouldn't those chemicals cause the cows to possibly abort their caves or have severe side effects?


----------



## ridgetop

I'm going to try and get out sometime Saturday afternoon and look around a bit.


----------



## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> That cove around and to the South of the manure plant is called Timpie. It is filled with cattle from fall to spring and so is the Western slopes of the Stansburys. I would think it would be a problem with cattle eating treated vegetation. Wouldn't those chemicals cause the cows to possibly abort their caves or have severe side effects?


Cows, oh yeah! I noticed the cow pie in one of Wes's pics. That is telling for me that the sheep were grazing in an area that was also being grazed by cattle. I documented cows and deer both coming in and feeding on treated vegetation right after the FS sprayed an area: http://rutalocura.com/onemile I can show you a herd of cows that is full of tumors, that have had underbites for several years now. The rancher sprayed about 320 acres a few years ago. And another ranch that two years ago had a 60% stillborn rate. They have been spraying heavy for years, and are near one of the biggest moose die offs that occurred in the '90s, right after they bought that place.

I'll get some pictures up later, of underbites, tumors, and spray areas in those cases.

This is a part of why when I started to supplement deer with Selenium back in ~2009, the best you could do was 36ppm in the right sheep salts. In Wyoming they had special blocks formulated in the early 2000s and worked up to 60ppm worrying that they were going to poison the bighorns. But now because of what is showing up in cattle the last several years, Se90 blocks are all over the place with almost 3 times the Se that you used to be able to get just a few years ago. Same goes for iodized cobalt blocks(those are the blue ones). This is because the cattle are coming back with low cobalt(B12) and Se/Iodine numbers. That all adds up to thyroid disruption.

I'm waiting to hear back from the bighorn biologist, we need to sync a time for a phone call. But in the mean time I did look at temps for the Stansburys, I would rule out a cold spell, its going to be hard to make that case with the numbers we saw this winter. Aside form the end of December it was well above average temp wise. But looking at the fluctuating temps, I bet the freeze thaw cycle played into this, along with maybe putting those sheep somewhere other than were they might normally be. You see Laminitis(hoof rot) show up in elk on treated winter ranges, specicifcally when the temps swing up and down freezing and then thawing things.

foot rot in elk: http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/environmental/elk-calves-struggle-on-two-feedgrounds/article_dc42fbcd-acd1-5917-96b4-f9c112130943.html

Here is a prop piece from the pesticide industry on some of that spraying: http://techlinenews.com/articles/2012/12/30/elk-refuge-manages-invasive-plants

They erroneously report that this is caused by a bacterial infection, when that is biologically impossible. What happens is that as that cell proliferation that builds hoofs is not normal, and the hoof grows abnormally and degrades. This in turn invites infection by bacteria. This and other feed lots in the area have been being treated since at least 2006. That freeze thaw process works things out of the soil, exposes treated soil, and stimulates new growth of contaminated plants in cases where it gets warm enough.

I'm still looking rehab work from the Big Pole and Kimball fires. If it is anything like the big one in San Pete county a few years ago, they are using lots. Tooele county weed coop did get big grants(much larger than normal) the last few years for weed control. It is just a matter of BLM use, and where that Tooele grant money was sprayed. It got used, it is just a matter of where right now.

When I get to my other computer I will post some stories about post fire treatment, the time frames and outcomes explain allot. I think the manure plant could very well be an issue, but this stuff also goes hand in hand with fires, as you will see in the stories. Keep this in mind as well, when the Whiskey mountain bighorn sheep first began their die offs in '90/'91, which they had never experienced before, it followed not only the spraying of their winter range, but massive spraying on parts of their summer range. The Wind rivers, like Yellowstone, saw some of the biggest fires of the last 100 years in 1988. These fires burned a big chunk of bighorn summer range.


----------



## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> I'm going to try and get out sometime Saturday afternoon and look around a bit.


Get pictures of hooves and jaws and incisors if you find them.


----------



## Lonetree

Cows and spraying: I'll have to dig through some more thumb drives for the tumors. Below are a few of the sprays that have the cattle with tumors.

The sprays themselves below. They are very obvious in this winter pic, because they took the sage brush off.









A calf with a severe underbite, with one of the sprays in the background. This cow belonged to another rancher that grazes on the creek that starts in the closest spray area. 









The next one is of the underbite that calf has. His incisors are severely malformed. They are pointing way too far forward, and his upper face is really short as well. While short, it looks shorter than it really is here because all the soft tissue is gone. You can see the severe wear on the back side of those teeth where he would have had trouble properly eating.










When I make it to the laptop tonight, I'll dig out the stories on wildfires and herbicide use.


----------



## Lonetree

Wildfires and pesticide use:

Here is where we see the roots of much of this taking hold in the late 1960s when deer populations across the West first start to plummet by unexplained mechanisms, and buck only hunting started to be implemented in most Western states.
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._in_Columbian_black-tailed_deer_in_California

By the 1980s deer were in serious decline in all of Northern California and diagnosed with selenium deficiencies. http://deerlab.org/Publ/pdfs/23.pdf

Fast forward to the early '90s, and a much sharper trend that was taking root: 
_"The BLM began testing Oust in May 1992, starting with small plots, then progressing to larger sites like the Snake River Birds of Prey National Conservation Area. Home to the highest concentration of nesting raptors in North America, the NCA's native habitat is disappearing - along with the food sources that hawks, eagles, and falcons depend on. In the last 15 years, the number of prairie falcon nesting pairs has dropped by half." _http://www.hcn.org/issues/228/11280This

This was happening across the West, not only on wildfires, but wildlife refuges, winter ranges, road sides, and National parks.

The pattern is the same everywhere you look. Driven by economics, and lobbying from an industry that grew to epic proportions out of the Vietnam war. Like Willeys and Remington after WWII, the pesticide companies pivoted to a domestic civilian market. But unlike four wheel drive and the out of the box accuracy of the 700, the pesticide companies brought us something not so desirable.

_"These techniques are already in use in the park. Reinhart said workers have been treating invasive plants for the past four decades, but the program became more active 20 years ago_."

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.co...cle_cda49890-e2d4-11e2-9d99-001a4bcf887a.html


----------



## Lonetree

I may well be wrong on fires on this one. At least from a BLM point of view. I'm not getting the info on BLM treatments in the Stansbury, but given the current environment that is no surprise.

It is looking very much like the Tooele county weed board, and federal money at this point. The effort began in 2004, and ballooned in 2008, and again in 2013, which fits what Ridgetop was seeing, and what is occurring now. If you take into account the model of working with land owners, specifically land owners larger than one acre. Then things we see in Timpie valley fit the model and the time frame very well.

_"To aid in preventing noxious weeds from getting out of hand, Tooele County weed specialists Laury Hardy and Caldwell have obtained $23,000 in grants Last year(2007) & the year the county started its eradication program(2004) & they spent $6,700 to treat about 1,200 acres of land across the county." ---http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Jerry-Caldwell/954414241

_
_"In 2013 the county received around $180,000 in grants for weed control while using only $3,000 of county tax dollars for weed related costs, he said."---http://98.139.236.92/search/srpcache?p=tooele+timpie+valley+weed+managemnt&ei=UTF-8&fr=ytff1-tyc&hsimp=yhs-006&hspart=mozilla&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=tooele+timpie+valley+weed+managemnt&d=5009831740053450&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=dQS6dk19N0rmNUPQyF1qNeARbDfmm4lq&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=W1W7Up3zwItZaS3BlTQZNg--

__"The Tooele County Weed Board targets grazing and crop land greater in size than one acre. Along with spray treatments, the program includes reseeding land previously treated"---http://uacd.org/pdfs/RA/13-31%20Tooele%20County%202013%20Resource%20Assessment.pdf

_Much of this is like in other counties, they are targeting roads, trails, and trailheads as well.


----------



## huntinfanatic

Lonetree, Your research and findings are both fascinating and jaw dropping. Comparing your findings and statements to what I have been seeing in southern utah is shocking. Johnson Canyon on the Paunsaugunt has the highest density of cactus bucks I've ever heard of. I counted 16 one evening this last December. The main canyon in Zion N.P. has a bunch of screwed up deer. There was a fire on the west side of Z.N.P.(guessing around 5 years ago not sure though) just south of the east turn off to Smiths Mesa. There have been a lot of deer wintering in that burn ever since. Over the last 3 years I have been seeing more and more cactus bucks where those deer that winter in the burn spend their summer and fall. The only thing those 3 areas I mentioned have in common that I know of is lots of spraying for noxious and invasive weeds.


----------



## Lonetree

huntinfanatic said:


> Lonetree, Your research and findings are both fascinating and jaw dropping. Comparing your findings and statements to what I have been seeing in southern utah is shocking. Johnson Canyon on the Paunsaugunt has the highest density of cactus bucks I've ever heard of. I counted 16 one evening this last December. The main canyon in Zion N.P. has a bunch of screwed up deer. There was a fire on the west side of Z.N.P.(guessing around 5 years ago not sure though) just south of the east turn off to Smiths Mesa. There have been a lot of deer wintering in that burn ever since. Over the last 3 years I have been seeing more and more cactus bucks where those deer that winter in the burn spend their summer and fall. The only thing those 3 areas I mentioned have in common that I know of is lots of spraying for noxious and invasive weeds.


I started digging into the Pauns ~ 2 years ago: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/14-paunsaugunt-ut/

I never got very far, because there were so many other cases to look at. But the Pauns was very high on the list when I was talking to people looking for a laundry list of issues including cactus bucks.

I'm sure with some digging the same story will emerge, it always does.


----------



## ridgetop

I got out for a few hours this afternoon. I hiked the canyon just to the Northwest of the compose farm.
I found one recent dead sheep and saw a couple live ones that are very close to dying. Probably within a few days.
Here's pictures of the dead and live one.
With some close ups of the mouth and hooves for Lonetree.
Sure was heart breaking to see.


----------



## ridgetop

Also, is this a nature mineral lick?


----------



## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> I got out for a few hours this afternoon. I hiked the canyon just to the Northwest of the compose farm.
> I found one recent dead sheep and saw a couple live ones that are very close to dying. Probably within a few days.
> Here's pictures of the dead and live one.
> With some close ups of the mouth and hooves for Lonetree.
> Sure was heart breaking to see.


That is absolutely sad. First thing first, will you take me out there, or PM me coords and more detailed directions? Coords of sheep, and access points/parking. I'm pushing kidney stones right now(seems almost routine for me anymore) so I'm sore and slow, but otherwise ready to travel. Sun or Mon work anytime, and afternoons after that work as well.

The bite is not severe, and without a really clear side and front view it is hard to say definitively. It can be hard to get bite pictures without getting in there with gloves. But from what I can see the incisors look to be "shoveled", mildly misarranged(stacking) and pointing too far forward. They appear to have grooves worn in them where they meet the upper dental pad as well. That is not a really old sheep, so there should be no grooving. The grooving is a result of the lower incisors being pointed too far forward, and at a shallow angle in relation to the dental pad, along with short/underdeveloped premaxillary bones(face/nose area). This causes twigs, and shoots that would normally be clipped off cleanly, to drag between the teeth and the dental pad like you might see with dull scissors. This dragging causes the premature wearing and grooves. These underbites are definitive signs of congenital hypothyroidism, so if it is an underbite(I'm about 80% sure) then this sheep was born this way. So we are looking at exposure at the time of it's gestation.

This page: http://www.rutalocura.com/deer has some examples of bites. #1 has the grooving and cupping, while #2, #3, and #4 are examples of normal bites, angles, and incisor shaping and wear.

The hooves look like classical laminitis/"hoof rot" to me. And in a manner I would expect to see in that dry environment. It is always worse, or seen in just the front hooves. You see this allot in association with goats that have been definitively diagnosed with copper deficiencies. You give them a copper balus, and their coats and hooves get better. Or in the case of one of my goats, he ate a few pounds of ice melt(magnesium chloride) and the same thing happened. What we are looking at in this case is the overgrowth of the outer/harder laminae of the hoof. This is the part you would trim in a domestic animal. It should be flush with the soft inner pad with a smooth transition between the two, and it's perimeter uninterrupted. When this gets severe you will see the outer laminae remain soft and rubbery(or hard and crumbly), and it will grow over the soft inner pads. These outer hooves in your pictures are starting to curl and over grow the soft inner pad, as well as crack and degenerate. You will see these animals walk funny, be reluctant to walk, and many times they will feed while down on their front knees. I would say the hoof problem is a more recent issue, but I would need to see other sheep. This could possibly be from a secondary exposure, which could be the trigger. We see "hoof rot" show up in elk in those scenarios like I posted above on feed lots.

I will send these pics to someone else for a second opinion, and anything I'm missing.

If you plug these things into the chart I posted, you see how all this is related. The hooves say there is a glucose metabolism problem(usually associated with a copper deficiency), and the underbite says there is thyroid disruption(usually associated with a selenium deficiency) both of which predispose them to pneumonia. We are just lacking a trigger, which I still suspect is that warm January freeze thaw cycle.

Note on the mineral deficiency aspect of this. These are not the cause, but a symptom of the other things. Additional deficiencies of either, can make things worse though.

I don't know about the lick. But it reminds of something I saw a few years ago. We had a lighting strike fire above Ogden(I watched the hit) that burned only a few acres(partly because I saw it hit and was on it quick). Anyway, 2 years later there was a group of 8 deer that wintered on that burn site, and tore it up, they were centered around the one juniper that had taken the lighting strike. Fire releases a lot of nutrients, so that was all I could come to on that. Your site sure looks like it was worked, if there are tracks all over it, I would say it is a lick. As for natural, I don't know, but given what we see in those sheep, everything says they should be seeking out and utilizing mineral licks.


----------



## Lonetree

Is it just me, or do the lips on the dying sheep look like there is more black than there should be? Like it has been chewing on burnt wood? When bighorn sheep(and other ungulates) get severely selenium deficient, they will start chewing at bark, fence post, etc. I've seen deer chew on charred junipers. 

They get very stiff legged as well when deficient, White Muscle Disease.


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree said:


> Is it just me, or do the lips on the dying sheep look like there is more black than there should be? Like it has been chewing on burnt wood? When bighorn sheep(and other ungulates) get severely selenium deficient, they will start chewing at bark, fence post, etc. I've seen deer chew on charred junipers.
> 
> They get very stiff legged as well when deficient, White Muscle Disease.


I did notice the dying sheep licking its lips a lot. When I first saw it, it had both legs out in front of it and its head laid out flat. Then it lifted its head just before I took the picture.
The picture was taken at about 500 yards away. Sorry I couldn't get closer but I was short on time.
I have funeral services to attend to today and tomorrow. So I won't be able to get out until Tuesday afternoon at the earliest. 
That bare spot I took a picture of, I'm wondering if it could be from a lightning strike that killed all the vegetation around the strike zone. 
I've seen a couple of others like it around.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Some of the comments in this thread slay me. The selfish, whiney Piute county cattlemen and some of the selfish, whiney sportsman in this thread are just two different sides of the same coin. My interests matter and nobody else's do. Screw everybody but me. Me, me, me, me, mine, mine, mine, me!


----------



## ridgetop

colorcountrygunner said:


> Some of the comments in this thread slay me. The selfish, whiney Piute county cattlemen and some of the selfish, whiney sportsman in this thread are just two different sides of the same coin. My interests matter and nobody else's do. Screw everybody but me. Me, me, me, me, mine, mine, mine, me!


Did we wake up from the wrong side of the forum???

While I've got you colorcountry,
any ideas as to why there was a huge die off of deer on Kolob, Smith Mesa and Laverkin Creek area(basically West Zion unit) in the early 90's?
East Zion seemed not to loose very many deer at all during that same time frame.


----------



## Lonetree

Here is the second opinion on the underbite, and hooves. I did not give them any reference material, just asked "What do you think of these?"

_"The sheep has a fairly severe underbite. Also the lower incisors are 
overgrown and the four middle incisors are chipped/worn off on the tops 
because of the unusual wear they got from being significantly forward 
of the dental pad rather than contacting it. I would estimate that the 
underbite is 5 to 6 mm from the front of the pad to the top of the 
lower incisors, which would make it 6 to 8 mm from the point on the 
dental pad where the lower incisors should contact for efficient biting 
ability. As you can see, I repositioned the sheep face. It is easier 
for me to look at everything in this position.

Also the bighorn sheep hoof in one of the photos (attached) is quite 
damaged and overgrown. How do sheep keep from falling off of the cliffs 
when their hooves are like this. The hooves can't possibly work like 
they are supposed to work to maintain proper contact with the rock 
surface. The outer hoof appears to be separating from the hoof core. 
This can't be good at all for an animal that lives by its hooves so to 
speak."

_And their cropped photos:


















Another point of interest. As you look over allot of underbites, and photos of them, they tend to have more plaque build up, and be in poor condition WRT to cleanliness, compared to normal bites. This is because of metabolic acidosis, where rumen PH is out of whack and the acidity is high. This causes all kind of problems. One of the things you see is a shift of at sex birth ratios favoring males. Statistically you see the some thing with other metabolic disorders like thyroid conditions, where females are affected more than males by 2:1. Anyway that is part of what is behind increasing ram to ewe numbers. When we see those ram numbers creeping up with the same level of harvest, that is an indicator that something more is going on.

The genes involved in the development of the incisors and upper face, originate in the fore gut during development. This is probably why we see the overwhelming association between the two. But there is currently some "discussion" as to which came first. There is some work on the metabolic acidosis under peer review right now.

At a genetic level, the underbites, the reproductive malformations that are associated with cactus bucks, and the growth of antlers, are all driven by the same genes and epigentic cascade of genes and proteins. At a cellular level the laminitis and the fibromas are as well. Those are both the over proliferation of cells, driven by the same signalling genes and zinc finger proteins. These are all open feedback loops, that respond to incoming signals and other inputs. If you poison, or other wise disrupt and adulterate these feedback channels they begin to feedback on themselves, causing a cascade of unwanted, avoidable, negative affects. Lines of DNA code are erroneously replaced by imposters, signalling pathways are closed down while others are over expressed, and eventually the whole system is taken over and destroyed. The ultimate result of which is reduced wildlife and reduced tags..

This is why when I see A, B, and C we can usually find X, Y, and Z as well. This all requires a massive paradigm shift in the way we conduct conservation and wildlife management. All of which needs to be ecologically-centric(big shout out the originator of the E in WWE).


----------



## Lonetree

Color, if looking out for the interests of wildlife and hunting make me a selfish, me, me, me person. Then I will proudly wear that scarlet letter. I don't mind putting the me in US at all. I think you are mis-attributing peoples frustrations with what is going on, and what we are seeing here. They are rightfully disturbed and looking for answers. 

I grew up in sheep camps, and one of my fathers all time western icons was a life long sheep herder. None of which has any bearing on the scientific particulars of domestic and bighorn sheep contact and the science surrounding it. 

Ridge, huge thanks for being so selfish and getting those pictures.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

ridgetop said:


> Did we wake up from the wrong side of the forum???
> 
> While I've got you colorcountry,
> any ideas as to why there was a huge die off of deer on Kolob, Smith Mesa and Laverkin Creek area(basically West Zion unit) in the early 90's?
> East Zion seemed not to loose very many deer at all during that same time frame.


My comment wasn't directed at you in any way, Ridge. I also never said that domestic sheep don't cause mortality in wild sheep. However, wanting to outright ban all sheep production because some wild sheep died is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Again, I know that you never suggested that we should do that but others have. As far as sheep causing mortality in deer I don't know. The trespassers seem to love hunting my family's sheep infested, sheep disease-ridden property over the bountiful sheep free lands that they could be deer hunting elsewhere. I guess if livestock are such a big problem for big game populations all of us ranchers could just get rid of all of our animals and subdivide all of our rangeland into vast areas of cabin lots and ATV trails.


----------



## Catherder

ridgetop said:


> I did notice the dying sheep licking its lips a lot. When I first saw it, it had both legs out in front of it and its head laid out flat. Then it lifted its head just before I took the picture.


FWIW, the postural position you describe here is typical of a patient suffering/dying of respiratory distress. The lips would be dark in the still living patient as well. (called cyanosis) It is evidence that what is finishing the sheep off is probably the Ovine pneumonia, similar to other herds.

That said, this does not rule in or rule out the predisposing causes you guys have been discussing. Also, if this is only afflicting the Northern edge of the range, (which I just read) I might not be too quick to give Magcorp a pass on this stuff either.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Lonetree said:


> Color, if looking out for the interests of wildlife and hunting make me a selfish, me, me, me person. Then I will proudly wear that scarlet letter. I don't mind putting the me in US at all. I think you are mis-attributing peoples frustrations with what is going on, and what we are seeing here. They are rightfully disturbed and looking for answers.
> 
> I grew up in sheep camps, and one of my fathers all time western icons was a life long sheep herder. None of which has any bearing on the scientific particulars of domestic and bighorn sheep contact and the science surrounding it.
> 
> Ridge, huge thanks for being so selfish and getting those pictures.


Looking our for the interests of wildlife and hunting doesn't make anyone a selfish person. I never said that. Looking out for the interests of ranching and livestock producers doesn't make anyone a selfish person either. Does wanting to kill off every last **** elk from the range because you feel like the grass they eat belongs to your cows make you a selfish person? Does wanting to shut down an entire industry and way of life for a group of people because maybe SOME sheep in SOME areas have caused mortality in the wild sheep herd make you a selfish person? I'm not going to answer those questions because it seems as if I have rustled enough jimmies already but you can think it through for yourselves if you would like. A lot of people don't like or agree with hunting. Some people outright detest the activity? Maybe we should ban hunting.


----------



## johnnycake

colorcountrygunner said:


> Looking our for the interests of wildlife and hunting doesn't make anyone a selfish person. I never said that. Looking out for the interests of ranching and livestock producers doesn't make anyone a selfish person either. Does wanting to kill off every last **** elk from the range because you feel like the grass they eat belongs to your cows make you a selfish person? Does wanting to shut down an entire industry and way of life for a group of people because maybe SOME sheep in SOME areas have caused mortality in the wild sheep herd make you a selfish person? I'm not going to answer those questions because it seems as if I have rustled enough jimmies already but you can think it through for yourselves if you would like. A lot of people don't like or agree with hunting. Some people outright detest the activity? Maybe we should ban hunting.


Yeah I know you directed that comment to me and my comment might strike many as insensitive-especially those with a ranching heritage. There are a lot more reasons beyond the disease factor as to why I'd like to end public land ranching, but that is a discussion for another thread. I do value attempting to restore our wildlife as best as we can and not just for hunting. When an industry is proven to be as dramatically harmful to sensitive wildlife as sheep ranching, then I'll fight it tooth and nail--especially on public lands. Private land sheep operations as long as they build double layer fencing, undergo testing, have regular inspections by the state, and if they have an issue where their sheep escape and infect a wild herd be held liable for the damaged are fine by me. Would that make sheep herding uneconomical? Most likely, but there are many places in the world that can raise them without the same wildlife risks.

When the pioneers came to Utah, there were an estimated 1,000,000 bighorns in the state. By 1860 there were over 1,000,000 domestic sheep in the state and by 1900 the bighorns were mostly eliminated in the state. But yeah, maybe some domestic sheep maybe caused some wild sheep to die. Just because the magnitude of the harm happened 150 years ago doesn't mean we should ignore the mistakes of history and give ranching a pass.


----------



## Lonetree

Catherder said:


> FWIW, the postural position you describe here is typical of a patient suffering/dying of respiratory distress. The lips would be dark in the still living patient as well. (called cyanosis) It is evidence that what is finishing the sheep off is probably the Ovine pneumonia, similar to other herds.
> 
> That said, this does not rule in or rule out the predisposing causes you guys have been discussing. Also, if this is only afflicting the Northern edge of the range, (which I just read) I might not be too quick to give Magcorp a pass on this stuff either.


Oh yeah, we see cyanosis play into several of these things. In dying deer their whole abdomen and groin area will turn blue.

Trust me, if my father could indict Magcorp in any of this he would. The way in which Magcorp's emissions could and would play into this is with shifting weather patterns. Their plume typically drifts North, I can tell you how far and on what days this was in the late '80s. We had an unusual amount of Northerly jet stream flow this winter, it was the only thing that turned all the moisture we received into snow in the Northern half of the state, other wise it would have all been rain. That Northerly shift could change the deposition on the Stansburys, depositing Magcorp emissions on the Stansbury that normally would not.

In that case we are looking at events that would act as triggers, and exacerbating factors for what is already occurring. Most of Magcorp's emissions won't account for the birth defects we see, but could significantly contribute to them.

The nitrate deposition(acid rain) alone has been proven to drive down the Se content of forage which correlates to recruitment numbers and die offs in the Whiskey mountain bighorn population that has suffered from several of these die offs. Spring deposition, forage Se content, and spraying of their winter range all play integrally into what we see happen with that herd, it's ups, downs, and die offs. I have been on the phone all morning with the biologist that has conducted all of this work over the last 20 years on this very subject. We keep getting disconnected, he is somewhere on a mountain with poor cell service.

It sounds like we are going to get to put Se bolus's in bighorns to recreate Flueck's work on Black-tailed deer in CA in the '80s. http://deerlab.org/Publ/pdfs/23.pdf This will cover the data gaps on the other side of this equation in some herds, and move an otherwise stalled effort further down the road.

I'm still waiting on other phone calls and emails for any other input on the Stansbury situation, while pounding coconut water and flowmax.


----------



## Lonetree

colorcountrygunner said:


> Looking our for the interests of wildlife and hunting doesn't make anyone a selfish person. I never said that. Looking out for the interests of ranching and livestock producers doesn't make anyone a selfish person either. Does wanting to kill off every last **** elk from the range because you feel like the grass they eat belongs to your cows make you a selfish person? Does wanting to shut down an entire industry and way of life for a group of people because maybe SOME sheep in SOME areas have caused mortality in the wild sheep herd make you a selfish person? I'm not going to answer those questions because it seems as if I have rustled enough jimmies already but you can think it through for yourselves if you would like. A lot of people don't like or agree with hunting. Some people outright detest the activity? Maybe we should ban hunting.


Color, to add some perspective to this. I am in the process of trying to shut down certain domestic sheep grazing allotments in the Uintas, for bighorn expansion.

You can ask some of the people involved in that process, that probably barely tolerate me, I have made a very serious case about allot of the data presented. I have called out data in risk assessment reports from Utah and Wyoming that implicate domestic sheep in bighorn die offs where that simply can not be the case.

8 years ago I was looking at dismantling the whole disease transmission model WRT domestic sheep and bighorns. While that can not be done on a wholesale level, there are some huge holes in it. Which is a big part of what brought me to where I am at today. I was on the other side of the table of that biologist I have been on the phone with this morning on that very issue. We have a friend in common that is still working with and funding the research for the domestic sheep industry on this. We welcome what ever the results of that are, because it moves our understanding down the line. I don't think domestic sheep are nearly the problem they have been over the last 20 years, if we had healthy and resilient wildlife populations.

And good point on the sell off and subdivision aspect of much of this. That prospect is faced by allot of ranchers. Which is a case I will make on certain days for subsidizing grazing.


----------



## Vanilla

Color, you're right that you don't need to shut down an entire industry because "SOME sheep in SOME areas" have caused harm to wild sheep. 

But the industry absolutely should answer for the severe abuse to the land by A LOT of sheep in A LOT of areas. If people want to run sheep on their own property, so be it. I'm tired of the ranching industry being irresponsible on public lands and also lobbying to take away opportunities from the average sportsman. Of course, not every rancher fits the bill of irresponsible public land destroyer and sportsmen hater, but a lot do. These are the "me me me" people you should be lecturing. 

If ranchers are going to make money by constantly suckling the government teet, the least they could do is quit stabbing the public sportsman in the back. And yes, if their sheep contact wild sheep, they should be held financially liable. And yes, if their sheep are over or off their allotment, they should be killed on the spot. Be responsible, follow the rules, or get the (blank) off public lands. Pretty simple, really. Same goes for any consumptive user of public resources.


----------



## johnnycake

I'm curious lonetree as to your thoughts on the initial collapse of bighorns in Utah. It wasn't pesticides causing a weak population making them more susceptible in the late 1800s.

Also the subdivision argument I think holds little water, as the vast majority of ranching in Utah is public lands, with private winter holding. The private winter lands aren't accessible the public any way so there isn't really a net loss to the public.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Lonetree said:


> Color, to add some perspective to this. I am in the process of trying to shut down certain domestic sheep grazing allotments in the Uintas, for bighorn expansion.
> 
> You can ask some of the people involved in that process, that probably barely tolerate me, I have made a very serious case about allot of the data presented. I have called out data in risk assessment reports from Utah and Wyoming that implicate domestic sheep in bighorn die offs where that simply can not be the case.
> 
> 8 years ago I was looking at dismantling the whole disease transmission model WRT domestic sheep and bighorns. While that can not be done on a wholesale level, there are some huge holes in it. Which is a big part of what brought me to where I am at today. I was on the other side of the table of that biologist I have been on the phone with this morning on that very issue. We have a friend in common that is still working with and funding the research for the domestic sheep industry on this. We welcome what ever the results of that are, because it moves our understanding down the line. I don't think domestic sheep are nearly the problem they have been over the last 20 years, if we had healthy and resilient wildlife populations.
> 
> *And good point on the sell off and subdivision aspect of much of this. That prospect is faced by allot of ranchers. Which is a case I will make on certain days for subsidizing grazing*.


Thanks for your acknowledgement on this matter. For all the anti-ranching sentiment you see on these boards it appears that most sportsman are pretty clueless to the fact that ranchers are a great conservation ally with them. This "down with the ranchers! derp! derp!" attitude could end up biting a lot of sportsmen in the ass. Unintended consequences, people! Domestic sheep and wild sheep may be one thing, but if you think that domestic sheep, deer and elk can't coexist wonderfully then I challenge anybody to compare success pics of their last ten years of deer and elk hunts on sheep free land to my last ten years of success pics on land that is crawling with mountain maggots.


----------



## Vanilla

Is it too much to ask that ranchers quit destroying public lands and also stop stabbing sportsmen in the back? I don't think it is.

I'm not even asking for access on the land in return for the use of my (and your) public land. I just want responsibility and accountability. I guess those are lost principles these days.


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> I'm curious lonetree as to your thoughts on the initial collapse of bighorns in Utah. It wasn't pesticides causing a weak population making them more susceptible in the late 1800s.
> 
> Also the subdivision argument I think holds little water, as the vast majority of ranching in Utah is public lands, with private winter holding. The private winter lands aren't accessible the public any way so there isn't really a net loss to the public.


It was disease, no ifs ands or buts. And it was novel disease, which is key. When those early bighorns encountered domestic sheep, those domestic sheep were carrying diseases that wild bighorns had never encountered before, they had zero resistance. This is no different than Cortez and the Aztecs, and a thousands incidence across multiple continents.

But that was the 1800s, and the turn of the last century. By the '50s and '60s we were making really good progress with efforts to reintroduce and reestablish bighorn sheep. We were growing herds of 500 sheep, and doing some really amazing things, there were a few deer tags available back then as well. This was all at the height of what guys like Roosevelt and Muir had put in place, We had guys like the Murries(a whole family) that were living breathing Western incarnations of the sand County Almanac. Now keep in mind this is the height of the domestic sheep industry, that is all the world wore was wool.

So by this time bighorns have been exposed to allot of disease, and we probably have some significant resistance built up as evidenced by the growing herds. This continues well into the late 1980s. There were thousands of sheep transplanted from the Whiskey mountain herd during this time and spread all over the West. In the mid '80s there were around 80 tags on the Whiskey unit. (I think they still issue one now). In the case of the whiskey herd, it was 90/91 when this all fell apart. They had a massive die off and lost around 70% of this herd. We see these die offs happen on a mass scale across the West over the next decade, and continuing to today.

We had seen pneumonia die offs in sheep before, that in and of itself is not unusual. What was unusual was that just like with deer, antelope, elk(some places) and moose, we do not see full recover, we see continued suppression of these herds. And this happens across multiple herds, over multiple states, many time synchronously. Just like in the case of Sula, Provo, and Flaming Gorge sheep in 2009. And what we can't say is that domestic sheep are 100% responsible for these die offs, just like in the before mentioned cases. In some cases yes, we can show this, but over and over again it is not the case. Side note: That 2009 Sula die off was predicted ahead of time by a researcher out of ID. I just got that today.

So what we have in these pneumonia die offs looks like something novel, something not encountered before. This is why the affects are so dramatic, like they were when bighorns were almost wiped out 150 years ago. They have no resistance, and in many cases we can't even show transmission. In steps pesticides, acid rain, and a whole host of other factors. We now have the specific strains of pneumonia that are the most virulent and causes the highest mortality in bighorns identified, one being M. Ovipneumonia. The key factor that makes this strain deadly is an imbalance of the two associated leukotoxins. Without the disrupted leuktoxin, it is not deadly to bighorns, but it has been show that bighorns have no resistance to the strain that has this leukotoxin. Most domestic sheep are shown to be carries of both strains, bt not affected by either by themselves.

We also have die offs correlated with wet springs, and heavy nitrate deposition(acid rain) which drive available selenium in forage. These things are triggers and have been used to predict several die offs. We also have the association of pesticide use within time and proximity with these die offs. None of which can be documented before these die offs start occurring in mass 20+ years ago. So we see pesticides get introduced into the equation, that get a host of issues rolling. One of the problems here is thyroid disruption and disease, this in turn drives mineral deficiencies within these animals. These include selenium, cobalt, chromium, magnesium etc. So we have sheep that are already mineral deficient, and suffering from congenital conditions. Throw in a wet spring and drive the selenium deficiencies further by not having any available in feed at the time they need it the most, and it all comes undone.

So haw does pneumonia play into this? Two fold, these sheep at this point are week and dealing with other problems so they succumb to pneumonia secondarily. But the specific strain that is so deadly has shown up in sheep that have not had contact with domestic sheep, how does this work? This is where it all gets theoretical, but there is allot of information to support this case. We know that a novel pneumonia showed up in the early '90s. It had to be novel, or else bighorns would have died from it long before.

So back to the selenium deficiencies. these are both internal within the animal, and external through the environment. Viruses mutate and become deadly in the absence of selenium. What is a simple hand, foot, and mouth virus here, has morphed into a deadly killer in other parts of the world with selenium deficiencies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21434702

_"The plot twisted last year when Melinda Beck, Ph.D., a virologist at the University of North Carolina, and Orville Levander, Ph.D., a nutritional chemist at the USDA's Agricultural Research Service, described how a run-of-the-mill coxsackievirus mutated into the deadly, rapidly reproducing strain when an infected person or animal was deficient in selenium or vitamin E. The coxsackievirus in animals eating a selenium-rich diet did not mutate. However, the mutated virus could infect and be deadly to a person or animal eating adequate selenium. (Journal of Medical Virology, 1994;43:66-70 and Journal of Nutrition, 1994;124:345-58.)" ---http://www.drpasswater.com/nutrition_library/selenium_aids.html

_There is allot to all this, and it is very interconnected with allot of factors, but the big picture is mostly in focus at this point.

As to the subdivision angle. I don't think any of it is an issue for the public per se, we don't have access to the vast majority of it anyway right now. But in the bigger scheme of undisturbed wildlife habitat, migration corridors, etc. Leaving large ranches intact is absolutely critical for wildlife. There is allot between here and there, but leaving them whole, just like the large expanses of public land we have, I believe should be a critical goal when looking at the health of wildlife and therefor hunting as a whole as well. Again there is allot of nuance to be had here, with 20 of my own arguments eroding the base of this statement to a degree. Much like with public lands ranchers, we don't hear as much about the positive with private lands ranchers either. For them, it is probably like us sometimes when in a crowd of anti hunters, when some one poaches something. Everything else gets lost.


----------



## MWScott72

To go back to the secondary opinion conclusions. There did seem to be an over abundance of rams on Stansbury last fall. I was surprised at their numbers. Just thinking back, I bet it was 60-40 or likely even higher.

I now wonder if that ram Little Bighorn and his son saw around Thanksgiving while spotting for me was sick or just wore down from the rut. I seem to remember that he said it was in pretty bad shape...and that was on the Timpie side of the range. Makes me wonder now...


----------



## Lonetree

MWScott72 said:


> To go back to the secondary opinion conclusions. There did seem to be an over abundance of rams on Stansbury last fall. I was surprised at their numbers. Just thinking back, I bet it was 60-40 or likely even higher.
> 
> I now wonder if that ram Little Bighorn and his son saw around Thanksgiving while spotting for me was sick or just wore down from the rut. I seem to remember that he said it was in pretty bad shape...and that was on the Timpie side of the range. Makes me wonder now...


I don't know the specifics of your reference, but I would have expected them to have issues before this. That underbite is a birth defect, so the issues surrounding that go back several years.

leading up to these die offs we many times see the Ram to ewe ratio increase. There are many factors that contribute to this. And after these die offs rams tend to be the long term remaining survivors, with no recovery seen across the rest of the herd for years, if ever in some cases. What we see right now is nothing really. when the remaining ewes start to lamb, that is where we will see the full devastation. Shortly after the ewes are born, things will go down hill much quicker.

Speaking with one of the biologists today, and looking at the size of the area. Massive mineral supplementation could stave off some of the most dramatic affects of this, and keep these sheep on the mountain. If this does not occur, we will certainly see a more complete collapse. And like in many other cases(Provo peak for example) the survivors will scatter, and then we start to run the risk of disease transmission to other wild bighorns, should they roam far enough and make contact. The survivors will have resistance now to what ever strain of pneumonia they are carrying, while others that they could contact, will not.


----------



## Lonetree

I got more feedback about supplementation. There were some questions about supplementing based on soil type and some other things. I have done multiple year supplementations on sites with the very same geology, with positive results. The geological make up is based on geology maps and pictures of rock outcrops. They are currently on buffered soils that are composed largely of limestone. And I'm pretty sure I know that formation where it occurs on the front. If the tip on the Stansburys is what I think it is, there should be some rotten granite on the South side(mine shafts?). The North end is quite the geological fold like we see on the front. 

Does anyone know where these sheep were in Dec-Jan. The South side of where they are now has a different geological makeup which probably played into this. If they shifted locations when they started to die that would tell us allot.

I'll buy the mineral blocks, we just need people to hike them up the mountain. As we start to get more rain this will get worse.


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree said:


> I got more feedback about supplementation. There were some questions about supplementing based on soil type and some other things. I have done multiple year supplementations on sites with the very same geology, with positive results. The geological make up is based on geology maps and pictures of rock outcrops. They are currently on buffered soils that are composed largely of limestone. And I'm pretty sure I know that formation where it occurs on the front. If the tip on the Stansburys is what I think it is, there should be some rotten granite on the South side(mine shafts?). The North end is quite the geological fold like we see on the front.
> 
> Does anyone know where these sheep were in Dec-Jan. The South side of where they are now has a different geological makeup which probably played into this. If they shifted locations when they started to die that would tell us allot.
> 
> I'll buy the mineral blocks, we just need people to hike them up the mountain. As we start to get more rain this will get worse.


There is some granite further South on the range. Most of the sheep stay within the first 5-10 miles south of I-80. 
Josh, have you been in contact with Tom Becker, the Tooele County Biologist about your plans and ideas?
What about the people from BYU that were following and studying those sheep on a weekly basis for about 6 years. I think from about 2006-2012.


----------



## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> There is some granite further South on the range. Most of the sheep stay within the first 5-10 miles south of I-80.
> Josh, have you been in contact with Tom Becker, the Tooele County Biologist about your plans and ideas?
> What about the people from BYU that were following and studying those sheep on a weekly basis for about 6 years. I think from about 2006-2012.


Ridge, I have not been in contact with anyone in Utah wildlife for years. After a dozen cases of my emails and phone calls not being returned, even after talking to some of these people in person, I gave up. The DWR asks the public to show up to public meetings for input, very few people show up, and this is why. Same with RAC and WB meetings. They listen to some of us and tolerate us only while they have to in person, but if you are not with the in crowd($$$), you are not getting any follow up after that. I was trying to present this info(mineral and sheep specific) to biologists at the public mule deer meetings over 4 years ago. Those are the kinds of settings and sales pitches I really dislike doing, but I did it several times because I thought it was important. I have since fleshed this out publicly for all to see, because science does no one any good locked behind closed doors.

Sorry, I'm a bit jaded to say the least. If someone would like to make those contacts, that's fine by me, they can probably shed some light on allot of pertinent details. In the case of supplementation, I'm guessing they will be opposed to it. In the case of the remnants of the Provo peak herd that linger around the mouth of American fork canyon licking mag-chloride off the side of the road, they have been opposed to putting out mineral blocks on the mountain. They have cited predation as a concern, but that is not valid, supplementation in several field trials was shown to reduce predation. And in the case of the Goslin mountain herd it was decided to cull the entire herd.

As we all know, I don't think the same way as the DWR on pretty much anything. I would supplement the sheep to keep them on the mountain and try to improve their condition, it costs very little, and there is nothing to lose, with lots to learn. I would then get to work on identifying the roots of this problem by looking into location specifics of spraying in the area, to begin to mitigate further exposure. And follow up by working on a cessation of such activities.

Frankly, given past experiences with Utah, the thought never crossed my mind to contact the DWR. My "plan" is to make the time to get out there, look at and document what I can, and follow up by putting supplements on the mountain.


----------



## jshuag

Looks like the sheep hit the fan here. 

But it does sounds like there are some 'ewe'nique opportunities to get the Stansbury problem into sheep shape. Hopefully by Shear determination and by becoming 'ewe'nited things will get better. Just remember all's wool that ends wool. And with any luck those who draw tags this year won't Fleece the DWR but instead lead the Flock by their kind example. 

....sorry I'm a mutton for punishment.


----------



## Lonetree

Draw tags? That was the funniest part, and that was a funny post. BTW, the fleecing goes the other way.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Vanilla said:


> Is it too much to ask that ranchers quit destroying public lands and also stop stabbing sportsmen in the back? I don't think it is.
> 
> I'm not even asking for access on the land in return for the use of my (and your) public land. I just want responsibility and accountability. I guess those are lost principles these days.


Where exactly is anybody in this thread giving ranchers a free pass? Am I doing it just because I'm not joining your little lynch mob against them? Boy, you can't throw out an opinion on this forum that goes against the grain without some folks getting some seriously sandy nether regions. Sorry I said anything, Broseph.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

jshuag said:


> Looks like the sheep hit the fan here.
> 
> But it does sounds like there are some 'ewe'nique opportunities to get the Stansbury problem into sheep shape. Hopefully by Shear determination and by becoming 'ewe'nited things will get better. Just remember all's wool that ends wool. And with any luck those who draw tags this year won't Fleece the DWR but instead lead the Flock by their kind example.
> 
> ....sorry I'm a mutton for punishment.


I hope you feel sheepish for this awful post.


----------



## Idratherbehunting

colorcountrygunner said:


> Vanilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it too much to ask that ranchers quit destroying public lands and also stop stabbing sportsmen in the back? I don't think it is.
> 
> I'm not even asking for access on the land in return for the use of my (and your) public land. I just want responsibility and accountability. I guess those are lost principles these days.
> 
> 
> 
> Where exactly is anybody in this thread giving ranchers a free pass? Am I doing it just because I'm not joining your little lynch mob against them? Boy, you can't throw out an opinion on this forum that goes against the grain without some folks getting some seriously sandy nether regions. Sorry I said anything, Broseph.
Click to expand...

You are not the only one on the forum who thinks the knee jerk reaction to essentially close down an entire industry, or ban all public land grazing is just that, a knee jerk reaction and is not a valid option. I guess I just dismissed it as not a valid option and didn't respond.


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree said:


> Ridge, I have not been in contact with anyone in Utah wildlife for years. After a dozen cases of my emails and phone calls not being returned, even after talking to some of these people in person, I gave up. The DWR asks the public to show up to public meetings for input, very few people show up, and this is why. Same with RAC and WB meetings. They listen to some of us and tolerate us only while they have to in person, but if you are not with the in crowd($$$), you are not getting any follow up after that. I was trying to present this info(mineral and sheep specific) to biologists at the public mule deer meetings over 4 years ago. Those are the kinds of settings and sales pitches I really dislike doing, but I did it several times because I thought it was important. I have since fleshed this out publicly for all to see, because science does no one any good locked behind closed doors.
> 
> Sorry, I'm a bit jaded to say the least. If someone would like to make those contacts, that's fine by me, they can probably shed some light on allot of pertinent details. In the case of supplementation, I'm guessing they will be opposed to it. In the case of the remnants of the Provo peak herd that linger around the mouth of American fork canyon licking mag-chloride off the side of the road, they have been opposed to putting out mineral blocks on the mountain. They have cited predation as a concern, but that is not valid, supplementation in several field trials was shown to reduce predation. And in the case of the Goslin mountain herd it was decided to cull the entire herd.
> 
> As we all know, I don't think the same way as the DWR on pretty much anything. I would supplement the sheep to keep them on the mountain and try to improve their condition, it costs very little, and there is nothing to lose, with lots to learn. I would then get to work on identifying the roots of this problem by looking into location specifics of spraying in the area, to begin to mitigate further exposure. And follow up by working on a cessation of such activities.
> 
> Frankly, given past experiences with Utah, the thought never crossed my mind to contact the DWR. My "plan" is to make the time to get out there, look at and document what I can, and follow up by putting supplements on the mountain.


 It's a real shame that you feel that way and not even willing to try again.
It's pretty clear your not a "people person". 
But you have been a lot better to talk to as of late.


----------



## Lonetree

Let me add some perspective. I am more than willing to do something to help. I spent 8 hours on the phone Sunday with biologists. So this die off and some specifics are on some other people's radar. This is important down the road, because the more that is known about these things, the more that can be done about them in the future. You are responsible for a big part of that forwarded info, thank you. We need more of this kind of participation. 

I also passed on whatever may be occurring in the Rubys. One of the guys I spoke with told me that the last Ruby die off was predicted. NV F&G were told that it was coming, and they did nothing. These die offs come in waves, because of some of the triggers, so we can likely expect more in other places. Other wildlife is affected as well, but with sheep, the way pneumonia runs through a herd makes it stark and dramatic.

Here is what can be done at this point:
1) Education, I'm trying my best there.
2) Verify serum Se levels, and supplement. I am willing to do the later half of that.
3) Dig into the pesticide use around there and put a stop to it. Spring is coming which means more spraying.

And if you think the DWR has not already read this thread, and discussed this thread, you would be very wrong. 

Please do not attempt to shame me on any of this. I'm not a full blown conservation organization with a budget, my cash and time flow on wildlife matters is in the red. I already explained that the DWR has ZERO interest in talking to me about wildlife science, that is not my fault. I don't see any other organizations or the DWR in here offering up solutions, or informing the public on any of this. They don't care about us common folk and our concerns and interests. As soon as most of those guys get a spot at the table, they stop representing our interests, and start fostering their own, as evidenced by their deafening silence. I have ZERO desire for any of that. I am going to continue to do what I do, and keep moving the ball forward on this, as I have done for the last 6+ years. As for my attitude, you bust mine I bust back, that has not changed, nor will it. 

If the DWR wants to talk to me, my email address is easily obtainable online, it is on multiple websites, as is my phone number, they know who I am. They can PM me here for any of that info as well. I only have 7 contacts on LinkedIn, so the director could message me there as well. I'm up to get my kids to school at 7:00, which gives me two hours before I go pick up my youngest, and then I'm with him and running a business until 1:00, after that it is what ever I can get done business, or otherwise, until bed time which has been around 3:00 AM lately. So anytime after about 12:30-1:00 PM works for me. 

Go shame the DWR, I've been about as open and transparent about all of this, the evolution of it, the process, and my motives in all of this, as anyone could ever hope to be. It has all been conducted and documented publicly, for the world to see. I carry and own my responsibility.


----------



## ridgetop

Josh, I think it's great what your trying to do but it's too bad you have to rub so many people the wrong way.
Anyway,
I had my Father in law stay at my house over the weekend and I told him about your theories on pesticides and herbicides. 
He's a retired toxicologist for the state of Utah and he agrees that if Big Game are consuming pesticides or herbicides. Surely there will be health problems, like hormone unbalance and birth defects and other side effects.
I'm willing to continue to help out when I can.


----------



## Lonetree

Ridgetop, me?......rub people the wrong way? :mrgreen: That I do.

That's why I hang out with a drill sergeant, he makes me look oh so chill. 









You on the other hand.........You!.......have one hell of a good eye, I know why you find those big deer now. I need to take you and Catherder with me as spotters when I go hunting. To say that the bare spots and cyanosis(and posture) were astute observations could be the understatements of the year.

Catherder, left or right ventricle?

I'll go through some pics, and get them and some explanations up tomorrow. I'm tired and obviously far more out of shape than I realized. I'm working on my fourth kidney stone since Halloween of last year. So rather than haul selenium blocks up the mountain I spot supplemented with calcium-oxalate and hemoglobin. Considering what that place smells like I'm surprised I only threw up once.

We need more pictures of live sheep, standing preferably. I found a few more dead ones, and I think I know where more are.


----------



## ridgetop

I talked to the Biologist and he said the DWR will be sending out a news release is the near future.
It appears that at least 50% of the herd has been lost so far.
Lonetree,
I have had several kidney stones myself over the years, so I feel your pain. 
You think that smell is bad now, just wait another couple months and
when the gnats, house flies and mosquito's are swarming.
Then you will you truly can imagine what HELL must look like.


----------



## swbuckmaster

LT this is some good reading. I wish the DWR would pull their head out of their butts. My guess is their solution to this is doing coyote shoots and more cougar permits. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lonetree

On my way into Timpie I immediately noticed that the cows in the area were not in good shape. Several have "Brisket Edema" and tumors, and a few calves showed classic symptoms of "Weak Calf Syndrome", all of which show up in related thyroid conditions of ruminants. The symptoms of Brisket Edema are strikingly similar to what we see with pneumonia die offs. Many times sudden death is the first thing to show up. Then swelling of the Brisket area, anorexia, trouble breathing, and cyanosis. I believe some one that may be qualified to comment on the subject mentioned cyanosis. The condition is exacerbated with pregnancy, and existing heart conditions. A differential in diagnosing Brisket Edema is to look at cardiomyopathy. In animals with thyroid disruption, as is the case with congenital hypothyroidism, the animal is predisposed to cardiomyopathy, which predisposes to pneumonia, see the diagnostic chart I posted earlier. In the past, Brisket Edema has been associated with high altitude grazing above 6000 feet. But in recent years, concurrent with big game die offs it has been seen increasingly in feedlots. And pesticide exposed deer with congenital hypothyroidism also present with symptoms of Brisket Edema as well. Or as one "wildlife biologist" said, "They run into branches and their chests get swollen"..........Oooo....K?

Here are some pictures of the Brisket Edema in the Timpie cattle below. The first two both have it, and no calves:









Brisket Edema(harder to see) a tumor, and no calf, quite a ways up the hillside. 









Tumor, and mild Brisket Edema.









Her calf has classic signs of Weak Calf Syndrome. You will see bowed front legs, underbites, failure to thrive, and stillbirths with WCS. This calf has the classic short front legs, and limb Edema seen in WCS.









As I moved up the mountain one of the first deer I encountered also had Brisket Edema. Several of the deer were moving like their front hooves were sore. two of them had malformed and gnarled ears almost like they had been burned and healed, I did not get pictures of those. Deer with Brisket Edema below.









DWR needs to pick up their gloves, this was the third one I came across.









One of the first sheep skeletons I found did not have a skull, but it did have a bottom jaw. The teeth had the classic congenital hypothyroidism pattern of being "shoveled", and tipped too far forward. Notice how the incisors are "fan folded" with some forming in front of each other, with the orientation staying 0 degrees to the left/right axis. The genetics at work here are the same genetics involved in the formation and patterning of antlers. This is bad patterning and epigenetic signalling.









The last sheep's hooves were too far gone to tell anything. But the fact that they had degenerated so fast is not a good sign. The second sheep skeleton I encountered was scattered with no skull or jaw, and it's hooves were too far gone as well.

Further up the mountain at the base of some cliffs deer or sheep had been kicking beds out. This is were I find the first signs of geophagia. In the picture below you can see a spot that is pawed out, and all the vegetation around it is browsed heavily. There is a little pour off here so it may concentrate minerals. What ever it is they like this spot. 









The third and final sheep I find has an underbite. You can see how the lower Incisors extend past the upper dental pad, and how the tops of the incisors have grooves worn in them because of this. A sheep with teeth like this will have trouble selectively grazing and browsing. The molars are properly meshed when this picture is taken.









The hooves of this sheep are overgrown and it's horns are asymmetrical with signs of marked growth disruption.



















This sheep was found between two areas that sheep and/or deer have been extensively pawing at, probably eating the dirt(geophagia). We don't know for what mineral/s.....yet. One of those spots is the bare spot on the hillside that Ridgetop took pictures of from a distance. Here it is closer.









And a close up of recent hoof marks that had pawed at that spot below. The spot has had allot of dirt moved, and is tracked out. There is also coyote feces in it, which I find in these all the time, specifically when they are used by sick animals. This spot is interestingly right where two fires merged, one from 2001, and the other from 2009. SO there could be something to that.









Below is the other spot on the other side of the third sheep. It is an ant mound that has been extensively pawed out, with fairly larges rocks moved.









We have all the classic signs of a "pneumonia" die off. Geophagia(eating dirt for minerals), congenital malformations, other health issues, other animals affected, and a prior build up of pesticide use in the area.

I have in my possession, a report from a Western State biologist attempting to say that congenital hypothyroidism does not exist, as he dismisses the signs and findings in several deer fawns and fetuses. Yet the congenital hypothyroidism was confirmed by three independent veterinarians.

These are real, big problems that plague our wildlife, that require real, big work and effort. Most F&G departments do not want to deal with it, and frankly can not deal with it. After 20 years of catering to special interests on things that have done nothing but move conservation and science backwards, they are ill equipped to deal with the larger scientific issues that have suppressed our wildlife populations for decades now. When people within the UDWR would still talk to me, I had a biologist tell me that no one was interested in, or was going to look at my work, and that it would have to wait. Because everything was doing so good and we were heading into a boom. This of course was while they were again cutting tags, in the wake of a subprime population increase. We have lots of conservation money, talk, and projects, for everything but actual conservation that grows wildlife and hunting. And to be fair, I'm not pointing at the rank and file guys that do the real work on the ground, within the UDWR. These guys are just doing their job. This is a complete failure of leadership, and lack of will to buck the special interest lobby and do REAL conservation, and wildlife management work. If it were 1916, Roosevelt would be doing some serious conservation work with that big stick, or calling in troops.

So while this may be ruled as a "pneumonia die off", even in the presence of pneumonia causing microbes, this is anything but just a pneumonia die off. Allot easier to go that route though.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Reading this stuff makes me mad at how incompetent dwr biologist are. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lonetree

swbuckmaster said:


> Reading this stuff makes me mad at how incompetent dwr biologist are.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I'll temper that statement, by saying that not all of them are. Many of them are simply not allowed to do their job, as it was intended for them to do it. We see this play out through the RAC and WB. But there same real winners in that bunch as well.


----------



## Utahyounggun

Lonetree said:


> On my way into Timpie I immediately noticed that the cows in the area were not in good shape. Several have "Brisket Edema" and tumors, and a few calves showed classic symptoms of "Weak Calf Syndrome", all of which show up in related thyroid conditions of ruminants. The symptoms of Brisket Edema are strikingly similar to what we see with pneumonia die offs. Many times sudden death is the first thing to show up. Then swelling of the Brisket area, anorexia, trouble breathing, and cyanosis. I believe some one that may be qualified to comment on the subject mentioned cyanosis. The condition is exacerbated with pregnancy, and existing heart conditions. A differential in diagnosing Brisket Edema is to look at cardiomyopathy. In animals with thyroid disruption, as is the case with congenital hypothyroidism, the animal is predisposed to cardiomyopathy, which predisposes to pneumonia, see the diagnostic chart I posted earlier. In the past, Brisket Edema has been associated with high altitude grazing above 6000 feet. But in recent years, concurrent with big game die offs it has been seen increasingly in feedlots. And pesticide exposed deer with congenital hypothyroidism also present with symptoms of Brisket Edema as well. Or as one "wildlife biologist" said, "They run into branches and their chests get swollen"..........Oooo....K?
> 
> Here are some pictures of the Brisket Edema in the Timpie cattle below. The first two both have it, and no calves:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brisket Edema(harder to see) a tumor, and no calf, quite a ways up the hillside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tumor, and mild Brisket Edema.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her calf has classic signs of Weak Calf Syndrome. You will see bowed front legs, underbites, failure to thrive, and stillbirths with WCS. This calf has the classic short front legs, and limb Edema seen in WCS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I moved up the mountain one of the first deer I encountered also had Brisket Edema. Several of the deer were moving like their front hooves were sore. two of them had malformed and gnarled ears almost like they had been burned and healed, I did not get pictures of those. Deer with Brisket Edema below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DWR needs to pick up their gloves, this was the third one I came across.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the first sheep skeletons I found did not have a skull, but it did have a bottom jaw. The teeth had the classic congenital hypothyroidism pattern of being "shoveled", and tipped too far forward. Notice how the incisors are "fan folded" with some forming in front of each other, with the orientation staying 0 degrees to the left/right axis. The genetics at work here are the same genetics involved in the formation and patterning of antlers. This is bad patterning and epigenetic signalling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last sheep's hooves were too far gone to tell anything. But the fact that they had degenerated so fast is not a good sign. The second sheep skeleton I encountered was scattered with no skull or jaw, and it's hooves were too far gone as well.
> 
> Further up the mountain at the base of some cliffs deer or sheep had been kicking beds out. This is were I find the first signs of geophagia. In the picture below you can see a spot that is pawed out, and all the vegetation around it is browsed heavily. There is a little pour off here so it may concentrate minerals. What ever it is they like this spot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The third and final sheep I find has an underbite. You can see how the lower Incisors extend past the upper dental pad, and how the tops of the incisors have grooves worn in them because of this. A sheep with teeth like this will have trouble selectively grazing and browsing. The molars are properly meshed when this picture is taken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hooves of this sheep are overgrown and it's horns are asymmetrical with signs of marked growth disruption.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This sheep was found between two areas that sheep and/or deer have been extensively pawing at, probably eating the dirt(geophagia). We don't know for what mineral/s.....yet. One of those spots is the bare spot on the hillside that Ridgetop took pictures of from a distance. Here it is closer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a close up of recent hoof marks that had pawed at that spot below. The spot has had allot of dirt moved, and is tracked out. There is also coyote feces in it, which I find in these all the time, specifically when they are used by sick animals. This spot is interestingly right where two fires merged, one from 2001, and the other from 2009. SO there could be something to that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Below is the other spot on the other side of the third sheep. It is an ant mound that has been extensively pawed out, with fairly larges rocks moved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We have all the classic signs of a "pneumonia" die off. Geophagia(eating dirt for minerals), congenital malformations, other health issues, other animals affected, and a prior build up of pesticide use in the area.
> 
> I have in my possession, a report from a Western State biologist attempting to say that congenital hypothyroidism does not exist, as he dismisses the signs and findings in several deer fawns and fetuses. Yet the congenital hypothyroidism was confirmed by three independent veterinarians.
> 
> These are real, big problems that plague our wildlife, that require real, big work and effort. Most F&G departments do not want to deal with it, and frankly can not deal with it. After 20 years of catering to special interests on things that have done nothing but move conservation and science backwards, they are ill equipped to deal with the larger scientific issues that have suppressed our wildlife populations for decades now. When people within the UDWR would still talk to me, I had a biologist tell me that no one was interested in, or was going to look at my work, and that it would have to wait. Because everything was doing so good and we were heading into a boom. This of course was while they were again cutting tags, in the wake of a subprime population increase. We have lots of conservation money, talk, and projects, for everything but actual conservation that grows wildlife and hunting. And to be fair, I'm not pointing at the rank and file guys that do the real work on the ground, within the UDWR. These guys are just doing their job. This is a complete failure of leadership, and lack of will to buck the special interest lobby and do REAL conservation, and wildlife management work. If it were 1916, Roosevelt would be doing some serious conservation work with that big stick, or calling in troops.
> 
> So while this may be ruled as a "pneumonia die off", even in the presence of pneumonia causing microbes, this is anything but just a pneumonia die off. Allot easier to go that route though.


Those "tumors" on the cows necks aren't tumors lol. Ranchers cut the skin right there when the cow is young and that's how the skin heals. It's easier to tell what cows are yours.


----------



## DallanC

Utahyounggun said:


> Those "tumors" on the cows necks aren't tumors lol. Ranchers cut the skin right there when the cow is young and that's how the skin heals. It's easier to tell what cows are yours.


That was my first thought as well, I've definitely seen whole herds cut / marked like that.

-DallanC


----------



## Lonetree

Utahyounggun said:


> Those "tumors" on the cows necks aren't tumors lol. Ranchers cut the skin right there when the cow is young and that's how the skin heals. It's easier to tell what cows are yours.


Ok, there is allot going on right in that one small area. The Brisket Edema is the swelling of the entire chest/brisket area, this is one completely separate condition in and of itself. On top of that we have the "identifying cuts". This gets done on cheeks as well in some places. I can show you a herd were they don't cut, but you see classic squamous cell tumors in similar places. With these cows, some of these "healed cuts", which are not present across the whole herd, are segmented, multichambered soft cell growths, with connecting stalks. This is classic squamous cell tumor growth, and hyper keratinization that is seen in animals with metabolic disorders. This is the same mechanism behind the over growth of hooves in laminitis. In deer these don't droop, but are many times around the neck area. In this case they are called "deer fibromas". Either one may originate with an insect bite, cut, or scratch. And they may have a non causal viral association as well, with several cell proliferation patterns.

I don't have a camera lens to get the detail you need to understand what is going there. But with binoculars or the spotting scope at close range, you can see the details of this. With that magnification you can see the surface folds, branched growth, and connecting stalk structure of these. If you are familiar with a "skin tag" in humans, these are large versions of that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrochordon


----------



## Lonetree

Genesis: The picture below is of a bighorn sheep jaw from a Montana Bighorn sheep die off attributed to pneumonia. About half of the sheep that were looked at by a MT F&G biologist exhibited underbites like we are seeing in these Stansbury sheep, and like I find in deer elsewhere. The Montana sheep that were looked at by the MT biologist were all rams, which is important to note here, because females are affected by this at a higher rate typically.

What is interesting about this particular jaw is that this sheep not only had an underbite(congenital hypothyroidism) he also suffered from osteonecrosis. These are malformations of the lower jaw, sometimes called "lumpy jaw". Early etiology has been associated with "bottle jaw" and jaw edema, in association with brisket edema. Several of these Montana jaws with osteonecrosis and underbites from pneumonia die offs are kind of the equivalent missing link in much of this.

When researchers where first looking at the collapse of the Whiskey Mountain bighorn sheep in Wyoming, the geologist David Love proposed that selenium toxcicity was at the root of the die off. This die off started in '90/'91 and was a seminal moment in what would happen over the next 20 years. Love had observed malformed jaws in the Whiskey mountain bighorn sheep, that were later documented by Pat Hnililcka(Now with the USFWS). Love had seen these same jaw malformations in a bighorn sheep die off in the Dakotas where selenium toxicity had been suspected as a culprit. John Mionczynski and Joe Hutto who where working on the Whiskey decline, had zeroed in on a mineral connection, based on geophagia in the Whiskey sheep, and suspected a magnesium deficiency. With Love's info, they then looked at selenium as well, and found a severe deficiency. I believe it was Love that suggested that acid rain may play a role as well. From these discoveries sprouted the "Crazy Selenium people" of whom I freely subscribed. When Joe began to work with mule deer years later he would tell Mionczynski that he saw allot of similarities in WY mule deer and selenium deficient sheep. At this same time unbeknown to Hutto, I was telling Mionczynski the same thing about UT mule deer.

Mionczynski has been predicting bighorn die offs with incredible accuracy for 17 years based on selenium availability in forage. This includes those in Montana, where he had been completely unaware of the underbites and osteonecrosis these dying sheep had just like the Whiskey sheep he had studied. We see both of these things in mule deer as well, sometimes together, usually by themselves, but always in association with proximal pesticide use, and usually with other related issues.


----------



## MWScott72

Lonetree- 
Did I see in one of your past posts that any survivors of this die-off on the Stansburys will be immune to the pneumonia strain that killed the others on the range? Essentially, these sheep then could never be used for transplants (yeah, I know, long shot with current conditions). Also that any sheep brought in from other areas that are not immune to the pneumonia strain would likely contract the "Stansbury strain" and subsequently die off? There doesn't seem to be any good answer here if the above is true. Let the survivors stay and limp along or completely remove the entire herd, as was done on Goslin, and start from scratch. Pretty pathetic choices.

I would like to help out with the mineral supplementation if it can help, but realistically, my time is pretty limited. The first I could break away is probably the 2nd Saturday in April.


----------



## johnnycake

One thing that the literature and studies are very clear on is that the surviving ewes rarely have successful lambing ever again.


----------



## Lonetree

MWScott72 said:


> Lonetree-
> Did I see in one of your past posts that any survivors of this die-off on the Stansburys will be immune to the pneumonia strain that killed the others on the range? Essentially, these sheep then could never be used for transplants (yeah, I know, long shot with current conditions). Also that any sheep brought in from other areas that are not immune to the pneumonia strain would likely contract the "Stansbury strain" and subsequently die off? There doesn't seem to be any good answer here if the above is true. Let the survivors stay and limp along or completely remove the entire herd, as was done on Goslin, and start from scratch. Pretty pathetic choices.
> 
> I would like to help out with the mineral supplementation if it can help, but realistically, my time is pretty limited. The first I could break away is probably the 2nd Saturday in April.


The pneumonia thing gets very complicated. So as survivors they _should_ carry a certain resistance. But if they are carriers of the highly leukotoxic strain, then the potential exists to infect other sheep if they were used for transplants. But this is currently just not known. There is allot of work being done on this at Washington State University right now.

Frankly pneumonia is not at the top of my list of concerns, for as long as I have looked at this I just can't put pneumonia that high on the list. In the absence of domestic sheep that carry particular strains, it is a secondary infection that serves only to finish off animals that are already suffering from other problems.

Here is an example of how this plays out. In 2009 the Goslin herd, and the Provo herd began a "pneumonia die off". Those sheep came from Sula Montana. The parent herd in Sula started into the same "pneumonia die off" at the same time as the Goslin and Provo herds. So where did they all get the pneumonia from at the same time? They didn't, they already were carrying it. The die off of the Sula herd was predicted by John Mionczynski and Bruce Mincher(Idaho National Laboratory) based on low selenium forage levels. Neither knew the connection to the Provo and Goslin sheep, nor were they sampling those herds forage. Those Sula sheep are suffering from congenital hypothyroidism(underbites), and I have pictures of Provo sheep with this as well.

So these sheep were predisposed to all sorts of things. Key in this is the thyroid condition and thyroid peroxidase. We are still sorting out the genetics here but it looks like this codes through DIO1,2, or 3, via the same disrupted mechanism that give us underbites, laminitis, and abnormal antler development. The important part here is that with a thyroid condition selenium requirements are higher, and deficiencies are common because reserves are used up through the disrupted thyroid peroxidase process.

If this seems over anyone's head, that's fine, it is over most peoples heads including mine. I just don't let that stop me.

So here is where wet springs, acid rain, and selenium deficiencies come into play. If you decrease selenium availability, in animals that are already moderately deficient, at the same time of year that their requirements for selenium increase, you stress the system to the breaking point. These sheep are already predisposed to heart problems and other issues that make them susceptible to pneumonia, and are already selenium deficient. If you add in a weather phenomenon that drives the availability of forage selenium down, then these sheep lose immune function, which makes them susceptible to pneumonia. At the same time, the selenium deficient environment in these sheep increases the virulence of pneumonia causing bacteria. This then further pushes things towards a "pneumonia die off". Even though that is not what is causing these die offs in the first place.

We can kill all these sheep off and replace them, but if we use stock that is affected, or the conditions still exist on the ground that drive all the root problems here, then we will see this happen all over again. Nor will this do anything to help the deer, elk, and everything else here. Pneumonia is the least of this. Pneumonia is not a problem until we have pesticide use that affects the sheep and deer, causing thyroid disruption. The thyroid disruption has all of it's own issues, yet pneumonia still won't be a problem here, until we have a trigger, that can drive a pneumonia outbreak, like a lack of selenium in plants due to nitrate deposition, which drives animals that have an already higher need for selenium, into clinical deficiency, which then drives the pneumonia as I explained before.

This is why a focus on pneumonia, and reducing domestic sheep contact for the last 20 years has got us no where WRT bighorn sheep die offs, because that is not the problem. I don't know the Antelope Island herd or the New Foundland herd well at all, but I would be watching those ones close.


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> One thing that the literature and studies are very clear on is that the surviving ewes rarely have successful lambing ever again.


Not entirely true. In the case of Whiskey mountain bighorn sheep this was seen like in all post die off herds. But in the early 2000s they did selenium supplementation studies where they supplemented the Whiskey mountain sub herd on their lambing and summer range, but did not supplement the Arrow mountain sub herd. The Whiskey mountain herd increased its lambing and recruitment rates, where the Arrow mountain sheep did not. Both of these sub herds share the same winter range on Torrey rim, and suffered the same die offs. Mionczynski has kept forage records for the last 18 or so years from those lambing areas on Whiskey mountain, as well as other locations from across the west. You can chart lambing and survival with selenium bioavailability in forage. It charts perfectly, with low selenium correlating with low lambing and recruitment, and increased selenium bioavailability, correlated with increasing lambing and recruitment. These sheep have been back up to 40+ lambs per 100 ewes several times over the last several years, after suffering multiple die offs since 1990.

It is this same selenium bioavailability in forage that Mionczynski uses to predict "pneumonia" die offs. If pneumonia were the core problem, things would not chart this way. If you don't remove the core problem, of course you will continue to suffer the same symptoms.


----------



## Lonetree

So I just got skewered by two veterinarians over the "tumors", and the brisket edema in two of the three cows. Other angles of one cow show the brisket edema clearly. But I'm not getting full buy off on the edema in the deer either. Video would help allot here so you can see that the briskets are fluid filled. 

Anyway, just throwing that out there in the interest of transparency and being up front. Any of this in the cattle is sort of peripheral, but if we see it in deer or sheep as well, then that tells us something. No one is discounting anything seen in the sheep.


----------



## ridgetop

swbuckmaster said:


> LT this is some good reading. I wish the DWR would pull their head out of their butts. My guess is their solution to this is doing coyote shoots and more cougar permits.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Scott, you probably should hold back on the harsh knee jerk comments before you know the more to the story and what the DWR are doing on their end.

Here's a response I got back from them and how they feel about some of Lonetree's actions.

Quote:
Hi Koby,

Thanks for your message. I spoke to our bighorn sheep biologist, Rusty Robinson, this morning, and he is aware of Josh's concerns and ideas about the Stansbury herd.

We appreciate Josh's passion on this issue and the time he's invested in personal research. With that said, we know that bighorn sheep are highly susceptible to infection from respiratory pathogens, and we have identified the pathogen _Mycoplasma ovipneumoniae_ as the primary factor in this die-off.

We are working very closely with bighorn sheep biologists across the western United States and Canada on this issue and believe in using the best available science to understand and address disease issues. Right now, the unanimous consensus of the 23 different western jurisdictions that manage bighorn sheep is that key pathogens contracted from domestics (such as _Mycoplasma ovipneumoniae_) are the main concern - not mineral deficiencies or pesticides. This is based on numerous studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If Josh has peer-reviewed scientific research to the contrary, we'd welcome it.

From the forum discussion, you appear to be very invested in the Stansbury herd and what happens to it. We appreciate your interest and concern, and we know it's shared by many Utah sportsmen.

Unfortunately, our current estimate is that the sheep population on the Stansbury Mountains has been reduced by 50 percent. We're continuing to monitor the herd, and will conduct a population survey this fall to estimate the final impact of the die-off and obtain an updated population count. If you see additional dead or dying sheep when you are in the area, will you please follow up with Tom Becker directly or give Rusty Robinson a call? You can reach our main office at (801-538-4700).


----------



## ridgetop

More feedback from the DWR:

I'm fine with you sharing my response, if you'd like, but there's one other thing to possibly mention/clarify: We're not saying that pesticides and mineral deficiencies aren't a concern when it comes to wildlife health. But we are saying that when it comes to bighorns, the respiratory pathogens have been identified as the most important factors.

Also, if you choose to copy and paste my reply, would you please not put Rusty's number out there? I think it's his only phone (both work and personal), and I know there are automated programs that sweep public websites looking for phone numbers. I try to be careful and only PM/DM personal contact information. I'd hate for him to start getting a bunch of spam calls. A number to include instead would be our front desk number (801-538-4700). That number is already widely available and listed on our website, and any calls on this issue would be forwarded to Rusty.

Finally, I think we're going to be sharing information about this via a news release or post on our website in the near future. I will let you know when it's online.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Ridge in their own words they are only looking at pneumonia and not looking at the other issues. It's not rocket science showing the big horns have all these other problems shown in the photos. The problems in the photos are the issues that need to be addressed. If you have healthy animals they will be more resistant to what ever disease they come in contact with. Its just easier for the dwr to just say it was caused by a domestic sheep and issue more coyote bounties and cougar permits. It really is pathetic. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lonetree

M. Ovipneumonia is only what they succumb to. What they refuse to look at is the underlying predisposing conditions. I have posted up tons of peer reviewed material supporting my case here, if they are aware of my concerns, they should have read the supporting material. It is one thing to pull that BS with me, but they can not discount the peer reviewed work of hundreds of other people that support my case. I will again cite the Whiskey mountain sheep population as further support for my case that "pneunmonia die offs" are driven by other factors, and that M. Ovipneumonia is not the root problem, it is secondary and symptomatic.

Citing other game departments does not hold allot of water. I have copies of letters sent to WY, NV, and MT over the last 10+ years warning of several of these issues, from multiple people some even warning of specific die offs before they occur. Letters to Utah exist, I am waiting to receive those. Also those 20 some odd agency are not in lock step. Some of the people I work with were shunned by some of those other agencies years ago, and some even worked for those other agencies. Currently much of the work that my work is based on is being looked at again by some of those agencies. There is NOT consensus on pathogens, except that they are the final straw to break the camel's backs.

I am also waiting to hear back on two key pieces from different people about the 2009 Sula MT die off. I believe that in that case we have not only a prediction that was ignored about that pending die off, we now have skulls and jaws that will show in that case as well that thyroid conditions were the underlying problem as well.

How do you discount the thyroid conditions in these animals? How do you discount the laminitis in these animals? How is it that these die offs can be predicted by mineral analysis before they occur. And how is it that the DWR thinks they can ignore the peer reviewed work on selenium status in ruminant animals. The people that wrote all of this http://deerlab.org/othercervids.html agree with me on this.

We know that pneumonia is the final straw, no one is disputing that ultimately pneumonia kills these sheep. But what about everything that causes the pneumonia to be an issue in the firth place???? Pneumonia is always a secondary infection. What is the primary driver here????


----------



## johnnycake

Lonetree said:


> Not entirely true. In the case of Whiskey mountain bighorn sheep this was seen like in all post die off herds. But in the early 2000s they did selenium supplementation studies where they supplemented the Whiskey mountain sub herd on their lambing and summer range, but did not supplement the Arrow mountain sub herd. The Whiskey mountain herd increased its lambing and recruitment rates, where the Arrow mountain sheep did not. Both of these sub herds share the same winter range on Torrey rim, and suffered the same die offs. Mionczynski has kept forage records for the last 18 or so years from those lambing areas on Whiskey mountain, as well as other locations from across the west. You can chart lambing and survival with selenium bioavailability in forage. It charts perfectly, with low selenium correlating with low lambing and recruitment, and increased selenium bioavailability, correlated with increasing lambing and recruitment. These sheep have been back up to 40+ lambs per 100 ewes several times over the last several years, after suffering multiple die offs since 1990.
> 
> It is this same selenium bioavailability in forage that Mionczynski uses to predict "pneumonia" die offs. If pneumonia were the core problem, things would not chart this way. If you don't remove the core problem, of course you will continue to suffer the same symptoms.


As I said, rarely. You brought up one herd that you claim didn't experience this. I'll take the time later to dig into if the whiskey mountain herd lambing survived well after the pneumonia or if those sheep that maintained lambing and recruitment simply avoided the outbreak. Say what you will I'm inclined to believe the pneumonia and domestics connection as the driving force, given the overwhelming consensus in peer reviewed literature. But, if you have some peer reviewed work that conclusively shows successful lambing and recruitment post pneumonia I'd love to see it.


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> As I said, rarely. You brought up one herd that you claim didn't experience this. I'll take the time later to dig into if the whiskey mountain herd lambing survived well after the pneumonia or if those sheep that maintained lambing and recruitment simply avoided the outbreak. Say what you will I'm inclined to believe the pneumonia and domestics connection as the driving force, given the overwhelming consensus in peer reviewed literature. But, if you have some peer reviewed work that conclusively shows successful lambing and recruitment post pneumonia I'd love to see it.


Here is one paper(peer reviewed) that lays out the mineral case: http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2002/2002-Hnilicka et al.pdf

You can take the WY F&Gs word for it on the Whiskey sheep, straight from the biologist I don't agree with on the matter, I will miss arguing with him: http://archive.county10.com/2013/01...y-mountain-bighorn-sheep-herd-stable-growing/ They suffered through several die offs and never ever once has there even been a suggestion of domestic sheep contact. You can't show it for most of the cases over the last 10 years. Not in Sula, not in Goslin, not on Provo.


----------



## wyoming2utah

This thread cracks me up...not because I agree or disagree with Lonetree and his ideas/suggestions/theories/research whatever. But, because when he has brought up these same ideas with connection to the deer herds and the troubles with our deer herds, many of you same guys that are jumping on the bandwagon argued vehemently with him and even ridiculed him for these ideas. Have you come full circle now?


----------



## Iron Bear

swbuckmaster said:


> Ridge in their own words they are only looking at pneumonia and not looking at the other issues. It's not rocket science showing the big horns have all these other problems shown in the photos. The problems in the photos are the issues that need to be addressed. If you have healthy animals they will be more resistant to what ever disease they come in contact with. Its just easier for the dwr to just say it was caused by a domestic sheep and issue more coyote bounties and cougar permits. It really is pathetic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Why because you all of sudden think coyotes and cougar don't kill deer and sheep?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lonetree

Forgetting pesticides and minerals for a minute here. The DWRs response speaks volumes. My case does not rest on either of those. I have a fire triangle with multiple sources of heat, fuel, and oxygen, all they have is smoke. Notice how they went right to the pesticides and minerals, but ignored the fact these sheep are suffering from endocrine disruption. Laminitis has been shown over and over again to be associated with metabolic disorders, specifically insulin resistance. On that count alone those sheep are three times more likely to succumb to pneumonia. Is it any wonder that we are finding dead sheep with laminitis? Did the pneumonia cause the laminitis?

And what about the underbites? Those are definitive symptoms of congenital hypothyroidism. They can be experimentally induced, interestingly with the same chemicals that make up acid rain, in relatively small concentrations. So yeah, lets toss pesticides out the window, how did they get those underebites? How well were they able to browse given their teeth were not contacting the dental pad properly allowing them to graze and browse efficiently? So with hypothyroidism you have skeletal muscular myopathy. This means the muscles are weak. This includes the heart and lungs, which also predisposes to pneumonia. This is why patients that are bed ridden die from pneumonia, because their heart and lungs are weak, not because they were in contact with domestic sheep.

I can concede more than half the field, and still hold it. What about the endocrine disruption? Is the DWR going to say that it does not exist, or that it does not play a role in the pneumonia that ends up finishing off these sheep?

That is like tying deer and sheep to trees, and then proclaiming after they have all been eaten by lions, that predation was the cause of death.

Maybe the DWR would like to expound upon why the same disrupted epigenetic cascade involved in the signalling and development of laminitis and underbites(same gene, one congenitally involved, one not). is also involved in the contraction of pneumonia: http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1165/rcmb.2014-0132TR#.VuwVaHqrHSg

It is the same disrupted epigenetics at play in antler development, and male reproductive organ malformations as well. At what level do we want to do this on?

Is it not Zinc finger proteins and Forkhead box genes? Am I missing a line of code of somewhere?


----------



## Lonetree

wyoming2utah said:


> This thread cracks me up...not because I agree or disagree with Lonetree and his ideas/suggestions/theories/research whatever. But, because when he has brought up these same ideas with connection to the deer herds and the troubles with our deer herds, many of you same guys that are jumping on the bandwagon argued vehemently with him and even ridiculed him for these ideas. Have you come full circle now?


It is simple, some people can now see it in a very tangible way, that they can relate to. They watched this unfold over many years, and are looking at the results of which were forewarned and semi predicted. It is not that it is me, it is that what I said would and should be there, was....

Don't fall off that fence.


----------



## Lonetree

Iron Bear said:


> Why because you all of sudden think coyotes and cougar don't kill deer and sheep?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They kill deer and sheep just like pneumonia does...............


----------



## swbuckmaster

wyoming2utah said:


> This thread cracks me up...not because I agree or disagree with Lonetree and his ideas/suggestions/theories/research whatever. But, because when he has brought up these same ideas with connection to the deer herds and the troubles with our deer herds, many of you same guys that are jumping on the bandwagon argued vehemently with him and even ridiculed him for these ideas. Have you come full circle now?


When Lonetree first started his talking points he was blaming deer herd die offs on the lack of topsoil comming from the depression. That was hard for me to swallow. The stuff he is hitting on now isn't hard to swallow and actually makes sense. As for the deer die offs if you have a bunch of walking wounded like you are seeing with these sheep predation will take a much higher toll. It's easy to come to a conclusion it's predators doing the damage. Compound this if fawns are hitting the ground with the same problems these sheep have its not a stretch to see what is happening with our fawn recruitment.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## swbuckmaster

Iron Bear said:


> Why because you all of sudden think coyotes and cougar don't kill deer and sheep?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's because predators are a lame excuse if these problems exist. Give me a healthy deer herd and kill the predators and the deer rebound 10 fold. With the predator managment we have now the deer simply haven't rebounded like they should. This shows me there is something else going on.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## wyoming2utah

Lonetree said:


> Don't fall off that fence.


It would take me a lot more time and research to fall off it either way...time I don't have. Heck, I can't even keep up with what you are posting here...let alone look at it from any other angle.

All I know is that I would love for you to be right and be able to convince any of the fish and game departments here out West and start working to mitigate it. To me, that is/has always been the problem...identifying with certainty what the limiting factors are and then working to eliminate them. That is also why I have so adamantly been against the idea that predators are to blame...because too much information shows otherwise that they are not.

So, I hope you are on to something!


----------



## johnnycake

Lonetree said:


> Here is one paper(peer reviewed) that lays out the mineral case: http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2002/2002-Hnilicka et al.pdf
> 
> You can take the WY F&Gs word for it on the Whiskey sheep, straight from the biologist I don't agree with on the matter, I will miss arguing with him: http://archive.county10.com/2013/01...y-mountain-bighorn-sheep-herd-stable-growing/ They suffered through several die offs and never ever once has there even been a suggestion of domestic sheep contact. You can't show it for most of the cases over the last 10 years. Not in Sula, not in Goslin, not on Provo.


Fun fact, the Provo herd die off is very well documented to be linked to domestic sheep interactions, as well as the AF, Springville, Nebo, and Goslin herds. But surely, you are a more reliable source of info than the teams that studied theses herds.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BhEzTBJov5iAzyklQ&sig2=onzRQ4MFKeOnvrun6qweXg

Also, the Whiskey Mountain herd has many documented instances of domestic sheep interactions with the bighorns leading to pneumonia outbreaks. Moreover, domestic goats for packing have also been directly linked to whiskey mountain outbreaks. But let's not let peer reviewed published sources muddy a good googling.

Risk Analysis of Disease Transmission 
between Domestic Sheep and Goats and 
Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep by Cory Mlodic Wildlife Biologist for the Shoshone National Forest Rocky Mountain Region.


----------



## Lonetree

SW, those are both very key points about predation, and the dust bowl :mrgreen:. Johnny has pointed to the suppression of populations we see in bighorns after a pneumonia die off. This is exactly what we see with deer over the last 20 years, no formal recovery or rebound. The difference being that the deer declines play out slower, and are not marked, because they don't have something like pneumonia that will take out have the herd in 2 months. In deer we see them decline slower over a longer period of time. But we see the the same suppression and lack of recovery. It is no coincidence that I find these things in deer with messed up antlers and other things, AND that we find them in association with a bighorn sheep "pneumonia die off", in an area with declining deer and elk, where the deer are sporting some pretty interesting looking antlers. Is it pneumonia that cause the antlers to look like that, or the lions, tigers, and bears??


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> Fun fact, the Provo herd die off is very well documented to be linked to domestic sheep interactions, as well as the AF, Springville, Nebo, and Goslin herds. But surely, you are a more reliable source of info than the teams that studied theses herds.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...BhEzTBJov5iAzyklQ&sig2=onzRQ4MFKeOnvrun6qweXg
> 
> Also, the Whiskey Mountain herd has many documented instances of domestic sheep interactions with the bighorns leading to pneumonia outbreaks. Moreover, domestic goats for packing have also been directly linked to whiskey mountain outbreaks. But let's not let peer reviewed published sources muddy a good googling.
> 
> Risk Analysis of Disease Transmission
> between Domestic Sheep and Goats and
> Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep by Cory Mlodic Wildlife Biologist for the Shoshone National Forest Rocky Mountain Region.


Modeled risk analysis does not equal actual contact, there is no case for documented contact there, it is entirely theoretical. Packgoats were used to study bighorn sheep in the wind rivers, and were used to haul equipment into the study areas. Goats were used after die offs with no associated pneumonia from the packgoat contact. Goats were used most extensively during the the cycles of population increase. Again the people on the ground that did the actual work on the Whiskey herd say there has been NO domestic sheep contact. I know and work with the researchers that conducted the most extensive Whiskey mountain bighorn sheep work there is, it is still being conducted today, I'm still currently in contact with these people.

Your document shows actual contact with domestic sheep in the Nebo herd, the rest is cited risk, and it is Utah specific, it does not cover Whiskey mountain, nor does it cite actual contact with domestic sheep and the Goslin Herd. The Nebo herd received sheep from Augusta Montana, which is where that last sheep jaw with the under bite and osteoncrosis that I posted came from. So Nebo sheep would have an increased predisposition to pneumonia from thyroid disruption as well.

Yes, domestic sheep carry pneumonia that can kill bighorns, no one is disputing that. The problem is that there is ZERO evidence in many, many cases for actual domestic sheep contact, and a boat load of other factors that are scientifically tied to these die offs. That science is peer reviewed.

You did not cite any peer reviewed science for Whiskey mountain bighorns. I have worked with the FS in WY on that very issue, and the bighorn researchers on the ground that have studied and published on the Whiskey herd for the last 20 years.

Edit: Further more, maybe you could elucidate how those packgoats in WY caused the laminitis and thyroid disruption in the Stansbury herd? Another fun fact: The largest concentration of packgoat use in the Windrivers was conducted under a permit on the West slope, and South West Slope of the wind rivers by a biologists by the name of Charlie Wilson. There has never been a case of a pneumonia outbreak anywhere near where Charlie guided, and back in the day they were taking pictures of bighorns coming up to packgoats and touching noses. Charlie sold his permit(it was retire) because of pneumonia transmission concerns, non of which ever materialized in over a decade of contact.


----------



## johnnycake

I didn't include the link but the very end is the title to the study by Cory Mlodic and yes, it does document domestic sheep and goat contact prior to and identified it as a leading factor in the pneumonia outbreaks for Whiskey Mountain. As for the Utah paper, they identified domestic contact and observed interaction on all those listed herds.

For now I'm done with this discussion, I can only tilt at windmills so much. Lonetree, I appreciate your passion for this but it concerns me when you make claims that have very little foundation and dismiss others that are well documented--not to mention make claims that are clearly false such as 'no documented domestic contact' associated with various outbreaks. While yes, there are pneumonia outbreaks that surface with no domestic contact, they are the minority according to the vast amount of studies contrary to your claims. 

But hey, how about those deformed nuts? (I guess this is funnier to me as you all aren't aware of my vasectomy yesterday)


----------



## Lonetree

johnnycake said:


> I didn't include the link but the very end is the title to the study by Cory Mlodic and yes, it does document domestic sheep and goat contact prior to and identified it as a leading factor in the pneumonia outbreaks for Whiskey Mountain. As for the Utah paper, they identified domestic contact and observed interaction on all those listed herds.
> 
> For now I'm done with this discussion, I can only tilt at windmills so much. Lonetree, I appreciate your passion for this but it concerns me when you make claims that have very little foundation and dismiss others that are well documented--not to mention make claims that are clearly false such as 'no documented domestic contact' associated with various outbreaks. While yes, there are pneumonia outbreaks that surface with no domestic contact, they are the minority according to the vast amount of studies contrary to your claims.
> 
> But hey, how about those deformed nuts? (I guess this is funnier to me as you all aren't aware of my vasectomy yesterday)


Nuts? that's all you have, or had? You did what I get accused of all the time, googling information, only you don't understand said information. Which is why you are cutting and running like the DWR with a non argument. Again, packgoats and doemstic sheep have NEVER been implicated in Whiskey mountain die offs, you can not show that. Lets par this down to one simple case, show me where the actual domestic sheep contact occurred in the Goslin herd, Quote and source your reference. Because here is what the DWR had to say about it:

_"Domestic sheep, which have built up a resistance to the sickness, can transmit pneumonia to bighorn. But McFarlane does not think that was the case with the Goslin herd. The wild sheep involved in the second transplant from Montana came from a herd which is also currently experiencing an outbreak of pneumonia. It is possible the malady lay dormant within the herd and was released when an environmental trigger was pulled."----http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/outdoors/ci_14642009

_My claims have little foundation?, from the guy that just pulled a DWR dodge on the the actual science happening on the ground, right here, right now, on the Stansburys? Underbites? Laminitiis?.......Go......_
_


----------



## Lonetree

wyoming2utah said:


> It would take me a lot more time and research to fall off it either way...time I don't have. Heck, I can't even keep up with what you are posting here...let alone look at it from any other angle.
> 
> All I know is that I would love for you to be right and be able to convince any of the fish and game departments here out West and start working to mitigate it. To me, that is/has always been the problem...identifying with certainty what the limiting factors are and then working to eliminate them. That is also why I have so adamantly been against the idea that predators are to blame...because too much information shows otherwise that they are not.
> 
> So, I hope you are on to something!


That work is being done. But, no one is bothering with investing any time or effort with UDWR, as we saw by their response there is no need to waste time and effort there, when such time and effort are paying in other places, with better resources.


----------



## Lonetree

Maybe someone, like the DWR, would like to expound upon what those "environmental triggers" are that they think were associated with the Goslin die off? It appears maybe they don't fully understand the originating sources for the things that they say. If this concept of "environmental triggers" is original to the UDWR, then I'm sure they could, and would be glad to explain what they think those triggers are. If that concept cited by UDWR originates from outside the UDWR, maybe they would like to cite their source for referencing that information?

Is this where I summon Amy?


----------



## johnnycake

Ryder, T.J.,Williams, E.S.,Mills,K.W., Bowles,K.H., Thorne, E.T., 1992. Effect
of pneumonia on population size and lamb recruitment in Whiskey
Mountain bighorn sheep. In: Proc. Bien. Symp. North. Wild Sheep Goat
Coun., vol. 8, pp. 137–147.


Ryder, T.J.; Williams, E.S.; Anderson, S.L. 1994. Residual effects of pneumonia on 
the bighorn sheep of Whiskey Mountain, Wyoming. In: Proceedings of the Ninth 
Biennial Symposium of the Northern Wild Sheep and Goat Council: 15-19.
Shows a follow up of the lingering effects of the original domestic contamination and theorizes that future die offs will continue based on the contamination in the early 90's until the herd is completely eliminated and replaced.

That documents domestic interactions in the whiskey mountain die offs in the 90's.

A Review of Disease Related Conflicts 
Between Domestic Sheep and 
Goats and Bighorn Sheep
Timothy J. Schommer
Melanie M. Woolever

This has a fascinating section showing where captive penned bighorns experienced 100% fatality in 10 different experiments when put in contact with domestic sheep, and only 1 death in 43 for other species (cattle). These experiments controlled for nutrition and stress as well. There is also a discussion of wild herd die offs. But to me, it is fascinating that even with perfect health and trace minerals supplementation and as close to zero stress as possible there was 100% fatality in multiple studies of bighorns having contact with domestic sheep. That doesn't paint a pretty picture for lonetree's theory of supplementing then to fix the problem. Will that hurt the sheep? Probably not, but will it make a big difference? Not according to the science. Maybe that is why the UDWR isn't taking him seriously.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Johnny what your missing is the fact the sheep, deer are eating poison food coated with pesticides. This is causing the deformities and other issues were seeing. Supliminting isn't going to do any good. You need to fix the problem. This is what LT is getting at.
Everyone agrees domistic sheep are a problem but domestic sheep are not a problem with the moose die offs, deer die offs ect. There is a bigger problem you fail to see and it doesn't have a thing to do with sheep.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lonetree

_"Shows a follow up of the lingering effects of the original domestic contamination and theorizes that future die offs will continue based on the contamination in the early 90's until the herd is completely eliminated and replaced."

_This info from 1994, has since been shown to be false, it was assumed there was contact based on the fact that they had contracted pneumonia, not that there was actual documented contact with domestic sheep, just like with the Goslin herd. It is 2016, and we have increasing lamb survival and recruitment(just like when they supplemented them with selenium). Ryder and Anderson have been wrong over and over again over the last 20 years. It was _suspected_ that there was domestic sheep contact, it was not shown to have happened. That is why you did not quote anything from that to demonstrate this, because it does not exist, in the same way that that herd is still alive and increasing now. And domestic goat contact never led to pneumonia die offs.

My guys worked the Whiskey herd after what you just posted was old news that was already being ignored.

Captive sheep tests. This gets down to two very specific strain of pneumonia, maybe you could expound on the specifics of what makes these so virulent. I funded some of the work in WA that fleshed some of this out, and it is still being worked on. There are allot of different strain of "pneumonia". Like I said maybe you could be specific to demonstrate that you even have a clue here.

Done huh?

Please answer the other questions, you failed on the Whiskey herd again.


----------



## Lonetree

While you are at it Johnny, maybe you could tell us about those "environmental triggers" the UDWR was talking about, you know, the ones where there was NO domestic sheep contact. 

What could they ever be talking about there????????


----------



## johnnycake

Those studies are still being cited, and I came upon both through the last paper I cited and the Cory Mlodic sources, both of which are recent. I never expected you to accept what I wrote or linked to, as you always seem to know better than anyone else lonetree. 

Sw, the moose issue is also a highly contested one with most studies showing brain worm parasites and habitat reduction. Are pesticides an issue? Sure, are they causing mass die offs? There is where I don't think the evidence exists for big game species in the US. Multiple times lonetree in this thread has stated that mineral supplementation is the best way to stave off this die off, I'm saying that control studies disagree with him. Also, the studies I cited are a compilation of 10 different controlled studies plus numerous others on wild populations, both types of studies covering multiple states and Canadian provinces and covering a large variety of strains of bacteria. 100% fatality in the controlled studies with domestic contact--without pesticides or mineral deficiencies. Also, we'll see how Utah's deer herds are doing as we finish up winter, but for the most part they are still looking pretty good--and are at the highest levels in decades. It's not that I don't think lonetree has some merit--of course eliminating pesticides will provide some marginal benefit, but to state as he has that putting up these supplement blocks is the best way to stop the spread of the disease, and to suggest that proactively doing so would stop it in the future is just not supported. He's often stated that he doesn't think the pneumonia is really that big of an issue, and goes off on what to him is really the root problem. I just don't agree, and neither does the DWR, WYGF, Nevada, Colorado, Alberta, Oregon, Washington, etc and a wide variety of other scientific bodies that have shown time and time again that healthy bighorns will still die after sheep contact. 

Lonetree, yeah, I'm terrible about wading back into the mud when I know better. But yeah, nobody is arguing a single strain of bacteria is the issue, and we ask get that there are many strains. You do seem to have backed off on denying the Wasatch herds domestic involvement, and you brush off the whiskey herd collapses as not being related to domestics but there are sheep allotments within reasonable range of the bighorn habitat, goats have been shown to transmit a variety of the pneumonia strains to bighorns and even you admit that pack goats were used in bighorn studies in the past! (A practice that is no longer supported by many of the articles I've posted). The wildlife bio, Cory Mlodic, over that range attributes domestics with the recent collapses on the range, but you know better.

I could be wrong on the Goslin herd, I'll admit that, but if I come across the paper I remember from my public land grazing paper I'll get back to you on that.


----------



## johnnycake

Environmental triggers can be a number of things, including your mineral issues sure. But wet winters with thawing periods are shown in Dall and Stone sheep to be the biggest problems for survival. This winter has had a lot of cold/thaw/cold/thaw that helps deer and elk, but doesn't do so well for sheep. That seems pretty plausible to me. Also, once contaminated these strains of pneumonia can lie dormant until they rise up--but the origin of the strains goes back to domestics in almost every case. Sure, you might go back 100 years, but still the blame lies there. It is an issue of proximate cause versus but-for cause. You might be focused on the proximate of weakened health, and either you're right or wrong on your theories; but that doesn't discount the but-for cause where I'm more concerned.


----------



## Lonetree

Geophagia in Whiskey mountain bighorn sheep and selenium: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10344-007-0128-9

Selenium deficiencies in those sheep: http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2002/2002-Hnilicka et al.pdf

Selenium supplementation that increased declining deer by 260%: http://deerlab.org/Publ/pdfs/23.pdf

This covers those "environmental triggers" you can muse on this all you want, you don't have the field work, or the credibility to support what you say. You can't even explain why M. OviPneumonia is deadly sometimes, but not always. You just skate around this because you have no ****ing clue what you are talking about. It is only deadly under particular circumstances, you have yet to elucidate how that works, you just rambled.

Further more, you keep dodging the issue at hand, the current Stansbury sheep die off. You won't touch it because without a proxy argument you have nothing, zip, nada, nothing.

So please explain the current health of these sheep, the thyroid disruption, the laminitis, the declining deer and elk in the area, the deer with abnormal antlers. All of this is concurrent with a build up of pesticide use in the area since 2004. So lets toss that out for now, along with selenium, and YOU Mr. Bing biologist. YOU tell us in detail what is happening on the ground in the Stansburys. I don't need to hear your pondering and meandering know nothing lawyer spiel, explain it to us. Did the domestic sheep cause the thyroid disruption and laminitis in the bighorns? Come on, clue us into how that works. If it is domestic sheep, you should be able to explain how they do that.

If the big picture is too much for you to handle, just focus on the laminitis and the thyroid disruption. Maybe some of the sheep you looked at had something else going on with them that you would like to add. I could pass that information along when I'm in MT and WY later this month, working with some of the people you say are wrong, but have actually worked in this field for over 40 years, and on this issues specifically for 20. SO by all means let me know what we are missing, that you would like to add to the conversation.

What is the specific "environmental trigger" the UDWR is referring to? If you knew the first thing about any of this you could stick to the actual subject matter but you don't, which is why you dance around this the way you do.


----------



## Lonetree

I just got another email and some pictures out of Montana. It is another bighorn sheep, from another 2009 die off, that also has congenital hypothyroidism. There were several die offs in 2009, besides the Goslin herd, and the Sula herd, and this herd as well. NO domestic sheep involved in any of them. I'm just waiting to hear back about whether we have forage info for this herd, and if it was included in the 2009 predictions based on those forage numbers.









Johnny, so in the bighorn sheep and other animals you have studied, are you seeing any of this in the field or not? Oh, you're just do research? So are you going to publish? What University are working with on that?


----------



## DallanC

Does anyone else think of this when they hear the word "Selenium" ?










-DallanC


----------



## Lonetree

No, but then again I use the zinc formula. So does the shampoo trigger bighorn sheep die offs? Or are they just using it on their hooves?


----------



## DallanC

In the context of the above picture and hilarious movie... an enema was involved.

Edit: 




-DallanC


----------



## Lonetree

Oh yeah, zinc won't do that, or raise a trend line.


----------



## Vanilla

That escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand. 

Everyone claims that their studies are "peer reviewed" while the other side is relying on speculation. I'm starting to feel like Andre the Giant in The Princess Bride with the term "peer reviewed."


----------



## Lonetree

Vanilla said:


> That escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand.
> 
> Everyone claims that their studies are "peer reviewed" while the other side is relying on speculation. I'm starting to feel like Andre the Giant in The Princess Bride with the term "peer reviewed."


Well the Youtube, that was not peer reviewed. The last three papers I posted are peer reviewed, and written by people I work with, not just something I pulled of the internet. Nor did I quote speculative portions of a peer reviewed paper, that had been disproven 15+ years ago, and is still disproven.

The DWR wanted to see some Peer reviewed work, well we can start with congenital hypothyroidism: https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/congenital-hypothyroidism _"Congenital hypothyroidism is a partial or complete loss of function of the thyroid gland (hypothyroidism) that affects infants from birth (congenital)."

_Underbites as are seen in declining bighorn sheep in multiple states, are definitive signs of congenital hypothyroidism. Most of the work on this in animals has been done by a DVM by the name of Andy Allen, in horses, after CH showed up in great frequency through out Western Canada, and the United states in to the early 1990s._ "Common musculoskeletal lesions include rupture of the tendons of the common digital extensors, retarded ossification of carpal and tarsal bones, forelimb contracture and inferior prognathism (2). Angular limb deformity,joint laxity, poor muscular development, inguinal or umbilical hernias, and retained diaphyseal cancellous bone have been observed."---http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1481118/pdf/canvetj00073-0049.pdf

_This piece by Allen: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eve.12147/abstract references "mandibular prognathism" where the previous work refers to it as "inferior prgnathism". You can see an example here showing that to be what we commonly refer to as an underbite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prognathism _

Congenital hypothyroidism and the role of selenium in it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14757964--"In patients with absent or decreased production of thyroid hormones and who rely solely on deiodination of exogenous L-thyroxine for generation of the active triiodothyronine (such as patients with congenital hypothyroidism), selenium supplementation may optimize thyroid hormone feedback at the pituitary level and decrease stimulation of the residual thyroid tissue."
_
Selenium treats thyroid conditions because thyroid disruption and disease create a higher requirement for selenium: _"Compared with the values observed in age- and sex-matched euthyroid controls, patients with CH had decreased selenium, thyroglobulin and T(3) concentrations and increased TSH, reverse T(3), and T(4) concentrations and T(4)/T(3) ratio at baseline. Selenium supplementation caused a 74% increase in plasma selenium values but did not affect the activity of the selenoenzyme glutathione peroxidase used as a marker of selenium status."_--http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11238502

Thyroid condition and pneumonia: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1306097/pdf/westjmed00176-0112.pdf

http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(05)80021-X/abstract

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0422763813003105

And then we have one of the most novel aspects of all of this. I can't point to the internet for reference, because we own the the reference material. In bighorn sheep die offs across the West over the last 20 years, that DO NOT involve domestic sheep, we can show that congenital hypothyroidism is present by looking at the mandibular prognathism(underbites). Starting with the Whiskey mountain herd we can show osteonecrosis, and other periodontal malformations. These have been described as possible underbites. We are waiting for confirmation on this. If we then move forward in time to die offs that occur across the West, we see these underbites in the Bonner herd, and the Sula herd in Montana, as well as in the Provo peak herd. We are waiting for info on the Goslin herd, but given their source, we know they existed. The Sula and Bonner die offs that happened at the same time as the Goslin and Provo die offs were forewarned. And in Montana it was understood, at least at some levels that it was related to weather and selenium levels. This is what the DWR was referring to in their 2009 press release when they refer to "environmental triggers". They got that from people in MT, that got that from people in WY, that I currently work with.

I guess it's OK for us to be onto something when it is politically expedient for the UDWR, but not when it is otherwise.

So now we see the same pattern in the Stansburys that began in WY in the early 1990s, and has played out acroos the West for 20 years now. We have bighorns dying off, we have underbites, we have geophagia, and we have people looking only at the most obvious aspect of it, that pneumonia is responsible for sheep dying from pneumonia.

I am going to keep emphasizing this, pneumonia is a secondary infection. Explain why we see congenital hypothyroidism, and laminitis in these sheep? Then explain why we have see this same hypothyroidism in at least a half a dozen other die offs of bighorn sheep, and declining deer and elk?

Anyone can reference previous work, Google some info, or hide behind supposed "consensus". Real progress gets made on the ground, with novel work, and with those people conducting that work. I've shown everyone what I have(Or a good chunk of it over the years anyway), lets see what the DWR has. How are they going to grow wildlife? How are they going to move the ball forward? I ask because they dismiss me, but they have not been able to move the ball anywhere for 20 years. So don't dismiss my work, if yours can't do any better.


----------



## ridgetop

wyoming2utah said:


> This thread cracks me up...not because I agree or disagree with Lonetree and his ideas/suggestions/theories/research whatever. But, because when he has brought up these same ideas with connection to the deer herds and the troubles with our deer herds, many of you same guys that are jumping on the bandwagon argued vehemently with him and even ridiculed him for these ideas. Have you come full circle now?


It's nice to know there's a few guys out there that are opened minded to different views.


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree, 
let me know when you want to put out the mineral blocks.
I know of a couple places that might be good where the sheep spend more time during the summer.
There may be a couple locals that might want to help too.


----------



## Lonetree

This Sun and Mon work for me, and then I have cleared up the 24th to the 3rd, and possibly beyond. But within that time frame I may be traveling at least 4 days, and 2 work days, these are all dependent on other people's schedules, and I'm awaiting further info there. 

I picked up (5) 50# Se90 blocks and (1) 50# Cobalt block this morning, that is all that was available close by. I have more of those coming. We can use loose Se30 bagged salt, but that is in low supply as well. If we have to carry it on our backs, Se90 and high content cobalt blocks is the way to go, we don't care so much about the salt, it is just a vehicle for the SE and Co. I am currently tying to run down some Mag-chloride, my contact at GSL no longer works there, so I'm checking other channels. I have 8 trail cameras on the way as well.

I should have had a video camera this morning. So I'm talking to someone at the feed store about if they have mag-chloride, and they are asking me what it is for. This always gets interesting, so I just kept it simple and said sheep. We head over and look at some stuff, but it won't work. I start getting more questions because he runs sheep. So I explain that it is a thyroid problem, so he immediately marches me over to the feed isle, and grabs one of the remaining Se30 bags and starts to explain to me that I need Se, I'm just grinning at this point. He then proceeds to tell me that he is dealing with it in his sheep, and that they are seeing white muscle disease, thyroid problems, and his neighbors flock has had underbites. He tells me that from Tremonton to Blackfoot they are seeing lots of it, that's why the Se salt is in low supply. At the next feed store, another sheep rancher sees me buying the last Se90 blocks, and strikes up a conversation. I explain that it is for sheep with thyroid problems and I get essentially the same info from him. I'm guessing it would have been funny to see me getting the Se lecture, twice no less.

Based on that info I would be looking at unit 55 in Southern ID, that unit has closely matched trends in other parts of Utah. And the bighorns there are on Granite which will make things worse. And you have everything between Blackfoot and the Stansburys as well, with local conditions making all the difference. 

Ridgetop, if we can't sync up times I will at least get a stash of blocks going in the foothills, and get you coords and pictures of where they are at. We definitely want them where the sheep will be lambing if you know where that is. Cameras placed on the blocks so we can see which minerals they going for the most will be a good thing as well.

Thanks! for the help.


----------



## Lonetree

Environmental triggers: Unless the UDWR would like to explain otherwise, the reason they mention "environmental triggers" and Montana bighorn sheep when they spoke about the Goslin die off, is because MT F&G had a heads up on the 2009 die offs they experienced. Those die offs started, I believe in the Bonner herd at the North end of The Bitterroot, and ultimately affected the Sula herd at the South end, which is where the Goslin and Provo herds were supplemented from in 2007.

John Mionczynski the original "Crazy selenium guy" gave MT F&G the heads up on the 2009 die off, because he had been monitoring bighorn sheep herds through out the West for years. He based this prediction off of prevailing weather conditions, green up, and the Se content in the Forage of the Sula herd. He sampled plants that the Sula herd had recently browsed, using tracks and pellet counts to zero in on what they were targeting. When Mionczynski contacted MT F&G they were looking at the Bonner herd because they had very recently been seen coughing. The Sula herd started into decline a few weeks later. This is why "Environmental triggers" are cited by the UDWR, unless they want to clarify that statement further.

Here are the jaws and bites of some bighorns from that 2009 Bonner and Sula sheep die off: http://rutalocura.com/bitterroot We don't know which ones are from Bonner or Sula, MT F&G did not label them when they brought these ones in.

The Stansburys are not composed of Granite where the bighorns are now, or where they were wintering when this began. And we do not see a wet spring in conjunction with this die off either. What we do see is a warm and wet January. That part of the Stansburys is composed mostly of Limestone and other marine sedimentary rocks. There are two major kinds of "limestone" separated by a layer of conglomerated rock, that looks like cured concrete full of rounded cobble. Soils composed of rock like this have a very high buffering capacity so acid rain is typically not an issue. But the soil in this part of the Stansbury has little to no oxidized mineral deposits within it as well. A wet and warm January with prolonged wet soil would reduce redox potential, which would reduce the bioavailability of what few trace minerals are in the soil. A prolonged warm up and wet out will also drive a green up in some plants, which will surely draw the attention of the sheep and deer. This shift in diet to green lush growth with next to no mineral content likely pushed sheep that were already mineral deficient(hypothyroidism) over the brink. We also see out breaks of laminitis in elk during these melt offs and wet outs on feed lots in WY. Based on the hoof growth seen in those sheep, the time frame is about right for the beginning of this.

These warm January conditions would duplicate the same "Environmental triggers" that were seen in the Sula herd when they started into decline. Given the thyroid disruption seen in both herds, and their higher requirements for certain minerals, these conditions would drive a sharp and marked mineral deficiency, lowering of immunity, and loss of general thrift. This is what ultimately leads to their succumbing to pneumonia.


----------



## tliefting

Could the reason of the die off on the stansbury's be attributed to magcor to the north of there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Lonetree

tliefting said:


> Could the reason of the die off on the stansbury's be attributed to magcor to the north of there?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We covered some of this earlier in this thread, and it is possible. In the past where actual analytical work was done, it was nitrates in the rain water that made it acidic. This coupled with granitic soil severely reduced the availability of forage selenium, especially if those nitrate laden rain lasted a long time, and correlated with lambing. We now know that the nitrates were almost certainly the product of agricultural releases.

In the case of magcor their main emission is chlorine, which is far more acidic than nitrates. The numbers exist somewhere, but probably not publicly right now. If we have both wet and saturating conditions in January _and_ chlorine emissions, then we are looking at hydrochloric acid, which may well overcome the buffering capacity of the soil in the Stansburys. This along with reduced redox potential of the wet soil would drive exactly what I am saying above.

The crux of this in my opinion is we need a sustained wind shift out of the North, which we had several times this winter, and it needs to time with the warm wet weather, and be just prior to the beginning of this die off. This would still not be the cause, but rather the trigger for this event.

Hydrochloric acid deposition has been associated with mineral deficiencies and moose die offs in Sweden. In that case the main deficiency was copper, and the moose were later diagnosed with Diabetes, a metabolic disorder like thyroid disorders. Moose in Sweden:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15621935 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10813452


----------



## ridgetop

Lonetree, 
I PM'd you my contact phone number. I reinjured my knee last weekend and worked it pretty hard all week. By Friday it was very sore. I gave it a break yesterday and it's feeling a little better this morning but I need to give it more rest before hiking any more steep stuff.
I can meet out there on the North end of the Stansburys this afternoon to show you a few of the areas I think they lamb.
I did find one dead newborn from last year during Mike's hunt in November.
I have a deadline to meet at work tomorrow, which will take all day.
So today would be the best to meet or wait until next Sunday.


----------



## ridgetop

I had a friend send me this picture the other day. Here's the culprit that probably started it all.
The picture was taken last fall on the West side of the Stansburys.
I hope if anyone see's something like this again, they will shoot to kill. 
Then tell the DWR where to go find the domestic for testing.
As far as we know the domestic has not been recovered yet.


----------



## Vanilla

Don't blame sheep ranchers, though...

And is this picture peer reviewed?


----------



## ridgetop

Vanilla said:


> Don't blame sheep ranchers, though...
> 
> And is this picture peer reviewed?


I consider you my peer.
Review away.


----------



## Vanilla

Ridge---that actually means a lot. Thanks! 

I'm not a sheep guy, and have never even viewed it a possibility to hunt them, but this situation just flat sucks. It's just too bad. I feel for you guys that have much more invested in the sheep game as well. 

mwscott's sheep hunt thread last year was one of my favorite internet threads of all time. It convinced me hunting sheep would've really cool. Not that I'll ever have a realistic chance, but we can dream, right? 

And I'll tell you right now that if I was ever present for this scene, the domestic will die.


----------



## elkfromabove

wyoming2utah said:


> This thread cracks me up...not because I agree or disagree with Lonetree and his ideas/suggestions/theories/research whatever. But, because when he has brought up these same ideas with connection to the deer herds and the troubles with our deer herds, many of you same guys that are jumping on the bandwagon argued vehemently with him and even ridiculed him for these ideas. Have you come full circle now?


 I will admit I haven't been following this thread much because of other concerns and because it's a bit over my head (I dropped out of chemistry in college.), but one thing I do see that's different from the threads of the past, ie; the dialog isn't near as personal or toxic now and that's great to see. If this keeps up, maybe even the DWR (and the next Mule Deer Committee) will come around. Let's hope so!


----------



## Lonetree

Ridgetop, I will contact you tomorrow about summer and lambing locations. My phone was ringing off the hook this morning like it was a Monday, and I did not see your PM until just as I was leaving. I just got back from the Stansburys a few hours ago.

If that picture was taken on the Stansburys then yeah that could very well be a big part of this. I was talking with a guy on the phone today that has been working with a researcher in WA, and the latest work on pneumonia is interesting to say the least. Given the way that most classic fatal die offs, both captive and wild have occurred, we should have seen something last fall if that domestic sheep was carrying a fatal strain. Fatal die offs due to contact with domestic sheep have typically played out in the first several days to weeks after transmission. Now if that was Oct, and then we have lots of mingling in Nov with the rut, and we see things kick in by Dec. that could work, but that is pretty drawn out. Do we have a date for when the picture was taken? That sure looks like a feral, domestic sheep, that has not been sheared.

So this researcher has been sampling wild bighorn sheep for M. Ovipneumonia, and they have been finding it in healthy and thriving bighorn herds. And the most recent captive study with bighorn sheep and domestic goats, where they comingled the two and introduced M.Ovi, did, as expected, cause transmission of M.Ovi to the bighorns, but here is the thing "they coughed but then they got better". I don't believe this has been published yet, and there seems to be threats of resorting to lawyers to see necropsy reports. But ultimately the pneumonia was not fatal, the bighorns caught it, but did not die. I am waiting for more info to come in on that. It would be interesting to know if UDWR did any lung necropsies for lesions, or just swabbed nasal cavities.

All that being said, an "Enviromental trigger" would still look to be what pushed this over the edge.

I found a few more dead ones, including a radio collared sheep #6 with a purple ear tag. DWR can PM for the coords, that one is a short hike.

I watched three live ewes today. With two of them, I literally bumped into them and got caught with my pants down, so no pictures. I had just put down about 25 pounds of salt, not 100 yards from where I watched these sheep. They appeared relatively healthy and alert, I was only about 30 yards away at one point. After they left I went to check out what they were eating, I looked at allot of what they have been eating. Anyway, like I said they appeared to be in decent, and moved well. One of them looked pregnant for sure.

The third sheep did not look good at all. She got bumped out of her bed by some deer that were moving through the canyon below me. She tried to run with them but could not keep up, and a doe actually turned on her twice. The deer wanted nothing to do with that sheep. I watched this sheep move slowly into the next draw and out of sight. I never saw her hunch, and never saw her cough, but she was very stiff legged, it looked like classic white muscle disease. She appeared dazed and not aware of her surroundings. No brisket edema in any deer today.

There is allot going on with Domestic/bighorn sheep right now: http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/bighorn-ruling-could-have-ramifications-on-western-grazing/ Which is why this is so timely. My work on deer came out of what I was looking at WRT this very issue about 8 years ago, and has sort of come full circle. Just like back then, I did not think it was as simple as domestic sheep give bighorn sheep pneumonia, The End! In communicating with Dr Foreyt back then(The authority on sheep disease transmission) he and his work agreed, it was more complex than that. Prior to the early '90s we did not see bighorn sheep die offs with the breadth and width that we see them post 1990. We just did not see the episodic die offs with the same frequency or scale that we see them now. They happened, but just like when deer declined, because of a hard winter or what ever pre 1990, we saw rebounds, not the stagnation of populations that we have seen with _everything_ for the last 20 years. When I first started pestering bighorn biologists about what I saw in deer 6 years ago, they could not see it. Now we can show that we are definitively looking at many of the same things across species, it just plays out differently in different species.

I'm tired of pissing blood, hauling salt, and chasing sheep, I'm going to go chase dragons. I'll post up pictures and commentary tomorrow, unless for some strange reason I don't hurt bad enough, and I go back out.


----------



## Lonetree

elkfromabove said:


> I will admit I haven't been following this thread much because of other concerns and because it's a bit over my head (I dropped out of chemistry in college.), but one thing I do see that's different from the threads of the past, ie; the dialog isn't near as personal or toxic now and that's great to see. If this keeps up, maybe even the DWR (and the next Mule Deer Committee) will come around. Let's hope so!


Before dropping out of Highschool, as a 16 year old senior. I got a C in 10th grade chemistry after attending 2 days and taking the final test. I passed History with a C that trimester as well with the same 2 days of forced attendance. That was 1991/92, and with all the deer, grouse, chukars, and trout, I had a hard time showing up. I always enjoyed a good white out blizzard on my trap line over attending a warm school.

Lee, we can always hope. But my toxic personality here on this board, around drawing attention to these issues aside. I have fostered allot of relationships, and made allot of progress with people and agencies all over the West on wildlife issues over the last decade, on things from bears to bighorn sheep. At state, federal, and individual levels. Not that it always went my way, or that we moved the Earth, but there was progress, there was a dialog, and there was reciprocation. Tomorrow, I could call up federal biologists that we sued years ago, and get answers to questions, and I guarantee you they would return my emails.

I have rarely encountered a scientific curiosity here in Utah, let alone responses to inquiries. The only time I see science employed is to try to prop up bad policy.  The entire system is designed to negate scientific input, is it any wonder things have played out the way they have over the last 20 years? I know how things are supposed to be, I do not accept the new norm, which is what drives my indignation.


----------



## elkfromabove

Lonetree said:


> Before dropping out of Highschool, as a 16 year old senior. I got a C in 10th grade chemistry after attending 2 days and taking the final test. I passed History with a C that trimester as well with the same 2 days of forced attendance. That was 1991/92, and with all the deer, grouse, chukars, and trout, I had a hard time showing up. I always enjoyed a good white out blizzard on my trap line over attending a warm school.
> 
> Lee, we can always hope. But my toxic personality here on this board, around drawing attention to these issues aside. I have fostered allot of relationships, and made allot of progress with people and agencies all over the West on wildlife issues over the last decade, on things from bears to bighorn sheep. At state, federal, and individual levels. Not that it always went my way, or that we moved the Earth, but there was progress, there was a dialog, and there was reciprocation. Tomorrow, I could call up federal biologists that we sued years ago, and get answers to questions, and I guarantee you they would return my emails.
> 
> I have rarely encountered a scientific curiosity here in Utah, let alone responses to inquiries. The only time I see science employed is to try to prop up bad policy. The entire system is designed to negate scientific input, is it any wonder things have played out the way they have over the last 20 years? I know how things are supposed to be, I do not accept the new norm, which is what drives my indignation.


 Somewhat in my defense, as a Freshman in college and with a Mechanical Engineering major, I was supposed to take Inorganic Chemistry, but the classes were closed so my councilor signed me up for Organic Chemistry with prerequisites of High School Physics and Calculus and I had neither. Two weeks into Quantum Theory and Mechanics sent my to a basic Psychology class!

As far as the lack of scientific curiosity in Utah goes, I suspect it's mostly confined to state government entities and since money drives most of their policies, sound science be damned. I know I saw it on the Mule Deer Committee. Nutrition was a taboo subject to the point that when I brought it up, we were told by a committee member that anyone promoting it on the internet was just trying to divide hunters. He didn't dare name you, but we all knew who he meant per private conversations afterward. Besides, we were told by a DWR official, nutrition is automatically covered in the Habitat section. Unfortunately, maybe it takes some dead Bighorns to get their attention.

I applaud you, sir. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Lonetree

Lee, The habitat section covers how to kill off entire ecosystems and then plant crested wheat grass for cattle and sheep men with Sportsmen's money.

And along those lines, this all applies to Sage grouse as well as deer, elk, moose, and bighorns. If the UDWR wanted to take control of the sage grouse conversation they could easily show that it was the federal government that caused the last 10 years of sage grouse declines. But this would require a scientific effort and understanding, which is why they won't win that battle. They don't understand the science to demonstrate the fact that the BLM is responsible for the 50% decline we have seen. Instead they are reduced to moving birds around and repeating the mistakes the BLM made.


----------



## Lonetree

Sunday on the Stansburys. I hauled 50# of selenium and cobalt salt up to two locations. Those got dosed with Mag-chloride as well.

Weighed down with all that salt and in piss poor shape I was paying closer attention to what plants were being grazed and where. In the mouths of the canyons where the sheep were when this die off began, the deer, sheep, and cattle have been grazing very specific plots. These are composed of oval plots with many being in association of old lake lines. These plots are currently defined by the growth of vetch(I have not dug the book out for specifics yet). These are members of the Astragalus plants. These plants are selenium concentraters, and are indicators that selenium is in the soil. based on the very specific preferential grazing, animals appear to be targeting selenium.

Astragalus plant:









Astragalus can be toxic to domestic cattle and sheep and is a common target of herbicide spraying. I have watched deer eat Astragalus for decades without negative affects.

The other defining feature of the preferentially grazed plots is that grass clumps that have been preferentially fed on have an under story of forbs, where as those ungrazed clumps do not have this under story. I do not know what the forbs are.

Understory of forbs in the grass clumps:









No understory of forbs:









When I got up to Ridgetops mineral lick, I could see better what was going on with the light hitting it just right. I could see the red tint to the soil, which would indicate that there is oxidized iron. When I dug into and looked closer, sure enough it has iron, and clay in it. This is key for several reasons, but this is why the deer and sheep are targeting this lick:

You can see the red tint a little better in the picture below. I placed 25pound of Se,Co,Mg here: 









A new sheep dig near the last lick. This is new since the last time I was out there:









Here is part of how clay and iron play into this:









Magcor and the haze from just above the last mineral lick:









Further up the mountain I headed over into the shelves of the blocky limestone. This is where several live sheep are hanging out. They are bedding and feeding in these shelves. There are seeps in there for water, and some of the shelves are very saturated right now. They are digging and preferentially feeding here as well. Below is a picture of a spot where the sheep have grazed off a spot about 10 foot in diameter, and browsed the curl leaf down to nothing on one of these shelves. They then dug into the hill side in the middle of all of this. Sorry the picture is tight, my wife had the good lens. It hard to get everything in the frame with a 70-300 lens. I use it for distance and the tele-macro function. Dug out spot:









I put down the other 25 pounds of Se,Co,Mg not far from here. Where I also bumped into the two ewes. Those ewes were feeding in a little pocket just shy from the peak. They had been pawing around in a couple of specific spots, where several mushrooms had been uprooted. One had been eaten on by rodents:









Does anyone know what species this is? Mushrooms are not my thing, neither are locoweeds.

The reason this is relevant is because mushrooms are one of the only things that can make organic selenium bioavailable in acidic or anaerobic low redox soil conditions. Under low forage and soil selenium conditions bighorn sheep as well as golden mantle squirrels, pikas, and marmots have been observed to eat mushrooms. This has been seen specifically in bighorns, on years that they were documented to be selenium deficient. Those sheep were not known to eat mushrooms on years when their serum selenium stats were adequate.

Dropping out of another canyon heading off the mountain is where I observed the stiff legged, slow ewe. 









Most of the other dead sheep I found were just skeletons and were scattered. In the bottom of this canyon is where I found the sheep with radio collar:









This sheep had an underbite as well with the premaxillary bones(nose) appearing to be underdeveloped, with the incisors extending past, and encircling the dental pad. The incisors are grooved and worn with the typical pattern seen when they do not properly meet the dental pad. The incisors should be at more of a 90* angle to the dental pad, and be worn square and flat across their tops where they meet the dental pad.

Underbite where the incisors are too far forward, worn and grooved, and too wide for the dental pad at the underdeveloped maxillary bones. the lower jaw is to the side, but you can still see the relative size and positional differences:









This sheep also had laminitis, but a little different from the others. In this case we see the outer laminae being overgrown, but softer and rubbery, not crumbly. In domestic goats this has typically been associated copper deficiencies. 









At an epigenetic level, the over keratinization of hooves, mispatterning involved in underbites(both the mid face and incisors), and the mispatterning of deer antlers and male reproductive organs is all very related, with many of the same genes and signaling proteins involved.

Time for a commercial break.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Thanks for the research and work you do LT, I'm glad you keep so involved.


----------



## Lonetree

Favor: I have a guide from Idaho that wants to help haul salt into the Stansburys with packgoats. Because of the situation on the Payette forest they are super gun shy. I have the statutes covered for using packgoats on BLM land, I need the statutes for placing salt on BLM land. I have it for FS lands, and it is not a whole lot more than 1/4 mile from water sources, I just need it for the BLM. If anyone has that it would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Lonetree

The 1997 BLM regs are consistent with current FS regs, I just can't find the current BLM regs. The BLM is by far one of the worst for documents.


----------



## swbuckmaster

I would think hauling salt blocks would be great work for dedicated hunters! 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## ridgetop

tliefting said:


> Could the reason of the die off on the stansbury's be attributed to magcor to the north of there?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If magcor was a huge factor, I would think that the Newfoundland herd would be a lot more effected. The winds are usually from the South and push the haze North in that direction.


----------



## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> If magcor was a huge factor, I would think that the Newfoundland herd would be a lot more effected. The winds are usually from the South and push the haze North in that direction.


_IF_ the Newfoundland and AI herds have the underlying predisposing thyroid conditions, then Magcor's emissions could certainly be part of the triggering of a die off in either herd.

I would not rule the Pilot herd out of this scenario either.

I would be most concerned about the Newfoundland herd, as they really like the granite in the North end of that range. I also suspect that there is the possibility that they could be predisposed to a die off. I don't know about the AI herd.

Here is the current working model that adds up to these events:

1)You have to have an underlying health condition, typically thyroid disruption. These thyroid disruptions cause the thyroid to only work one way, that is very selenium dependent.

2) You then need one or more the following conditions:

a. A prolonged wet saturation of soil that reduces "Oxidation Reduction Potential"(Mineral availability in plants). This is commonly known as "Redox potential" and can be measured with an ORP probe.

b. An an acid rain event which compounds and exponentially increases the above situation. This is where Magcor could fit into this picture.

c. Spring green up that is concurrent with either of the above events, as a shift in diet at this point exacerbates the above conditions, and concentrates feeding on mineral deficient plants. Soil types play a role here, and in the previous 2 situations. Specifically their ability to handle(buffer) the introduction of acidic deposition.

d. Lambing and nursing, with any of the above compounding factors. This drives an increase in the need for many minerals for nursing(Se). Thyroid function and needs swing rapidly at this time as well(Se dependent). We see lambing related events involve still births, failure to thrive, and weak lambs. These can sometimes play out several weeks after birth in both Ewes and lambs, and has a classical pattern of Postpartum Thyroiditis. In these later events you see the effects mostly in Ewes and lambs.


----------



## ridgetop

I asked colorcountry a question a few pages back but he's probably too young to remember what happened to the West Zion and East Pines Valley units in the early 90s.
There was a big fire on the East side of the Pine Valley Mnt.(Browse area) in 1987 or 1988. The next 3 or 4 years were incredible with the amount of big bucks I was seeing within that burn area. I started to see a lot of cactus bucks showing up after the 2nd year. Then after the hard, wet winter of 92,93. Almost all the deer disappeared, there was a big die off.
I later found out that the deer had contracted a disease of some type.
During those years, many deer from West Zion(kolob area) would migrate across I-15 onto the Black ridge area. Mixing with the East Pine Valley Mnt. deer.
In the late 80s, I would see hundreds of deer on Smiths Mesa and along the road up the Kolob Res. but they disappeared around that same time too.
I worked for ZNP from 1988-1992 and during that time, we spent a lot of time trying to kill tamarisk by applying Garlon within many drainages around ZNP. I knew that stuff was toxic but didn't even think it might harm the deer in the area.
Maybe it did have an effect.


----------



## Lonetree

Ridgetop, that was the build up and impetus right there, to the crash and suppression of the last 20 years. That happened all over the West. There were several campaigns from the '60s into the late '70, with a pretty good secession of pesticide use until the fires of '87/'88. And then we doubled down like nothing we had ever done........until now.

It is not as simple as you spray, and then the next day the deer are all dead. That would be easy to see. It happens over time, with allot of other factors, which is why this has been so difficult to flesh out. Like a badger with connective tissue fibrosis.

Cactus bucks after fires have been known about for decades. Here is my classic study case: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/28-hopland-ca/

There is typically no pre-application or post application follow up work on the effects on wildlife. And rarely do we have the documentation to show that deer are in these spray areas and eating this stuff, like we have here: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/kodiak/ Or in what I have been doing.


----------



## Lonetree

Domestic sheep: http://utahwildlife.net/forum/21-great-outdoors/147937-uintas-domestic-sheep.html


----------



## MWScott72

ridgetop said:


> I had a friend send me this picture the other day. Here's the culprit that probably started it all.
> The picture was taken last fall on the West side of the Stansburys.
> I hope if anyone see's something like this again, they will shoot to kill.
> Then tell the DWR where to go find the domestic for testing.
> As far as we know the domestic has not been recovered yet.


 Prior to my hunt, I spoke to Tom (Stansbury Bighorn Biologist) about this issue. During that conversation, I asked him that "if I were to run into that domestic sheep, would you like me to shoot it and give you a call or just call you and let DWR do the dirty work". His response was to let the DWR do the deed as there is only a certain amount of time after death that the samples the biologists would need to collect would be valid.

Again, never saw the domestic sheep back in November, but if I ran across him now, I'd probably call DWR, and if they couldn't get there before the end of the day, I'd keep track of the sheep and shoot him before leaving for the night.


----------



## Lonetree

After a few more trips out to the Stansburys, I have a few more comments and observations.

First, there appears to be plenty of skeletal remains that would go back to last spring. For every two carcasses from this year, there is one from last spring. I would suspect these sheep have been in trouble for awhile.

Ram from last year:









Second, the newer the carcass from this year, the more severe the overgrowth of the hooves. This appeared to be rapidly progressing through late winter. When you look at all the possible causes of laminitis, after a dozen varieties of toxic exposures, there is one that is always very high on the list, and that is severe copper and selenium deficiencies.

Nice view down the spine of the Stansburys:









I wonder why no one put an ID tag on this?


----------



## johnnycake

That's a beautiful old ram.


----------



## ridgetop

Here's a recent news release from the DWR.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in.../1830-bighorn-sheep-dying-from-pneumonia.html


----------



## swbuckmaster

Did antelope island have a die off a few years ago as well? I picked up a dead head on the shed hunt. A friend picked up a head the year before. I think 4 were picked up the year I found mine:




Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## swbuckmaster

Before anyone gets excited:


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## hazmat

Mag Corp is a nasty nasty place between them and kennecott no wonder we live in a soup bowl during the winters i don't see how it could effect the sheep just there though. This sheep die off really sucks thanks for all of the info on this matter ridgetop. Hopefully they get it figured out


----------



## wyogoob

I took the liberty of downsizing the pictures for you swbuckmaster.

.


----------



## Vanilla

Bighorns are just cool animals. I can see why some people go sheep crazy and spend a lifetime chasing these things.


----------



## hazmat

Are deadheads legal in utah


----------



## swbuckmaster

No they come naturally in the wild with plugs and titles

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## johnnycake

hazmat said:


> Are deadheads legal in utah


The Antelope Island shed hunt is one of the few ways you can keep a found deadhead legally in Utah. Other than that, I believe you mark the location, call the DWR to have a CO check it out and then they will decide if you can keep it or if they are going to keep it (generally so that they can sell them at the annual auction).


----------



## swbuckmaster

Antelope island works the same way except the only difference is you can pick them up on the island and you can't anywhere else. Antelope island takes a coordinate keeps the head for several weeks then they have the option of giving you the head after they check things out. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## ridgetop

Here's a video I took a couple years ago while out looking for Bighorns on the Stansburys.
It was just a few days after a buck had been killed and not recovered from the rifle hunt.
You can see the ram licking the dead buck. No wonder the sheep easily transmit viruses to each other.


----------



## Vanilla

"Buddy. Hey buddy...wake up! Seriously, you gotta get up."


----------

