# Elk herds and the drought



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Keep a watchful eye on anterless tags and be vocal in not wanting lots of cow tags that will push back elk numbers. With the water and feed situation at its current state on public lands, the elk will start taking the brunt of the blame from the good ole boys and they’ll be pushing for some big decreases in elk numbers. Also, pray for rain.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Who would of thought.....









Potential drought impacts on cattle markets


As April arrives, the current drought situation looms larger, and potential impacts on cattle markets are increasing with each passing week. The latest U.S. Drought Monitor shows that 43.55% of the continental U.S. is in some degree of drought (D1-D4), including 18.06% in extreme and exceptional...




www.progressivecattle.com


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

https://site.utah.gov/dps-emergency/wp-content/uploads/sites/18/2019/02/6-Drought.pdf


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Good reading Moose! I've been in the hills and I must say.....It's dry as Popcorn fart. Hang on to your britches this year.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

If the biologist say the range can only handle a certain amount of elk right now, then I'd prefer a cow or calf elk be in someones freezer than in a coyotes or crows belly!
If the elk need to be cut back, then so do the cattle.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Agreed on all counts, ridge! It’s a tricky balance, and I don’t think we ever do a great job of finding the balance, but I agree with the premise. I wish that was more the way things worked.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Agreed on all counts, ridge! It’s a tricky balance, and I don’t think we ever do a great job of finding the balance, but I agree with the premise. I wish that was more the way things worked.


Not only are the elk competing with the cattle but they are also competing with the mule deer. If this drought continues another 6 months. We are going to see a huge drop off in deer numbers next year and probably a lower calf elk survival rate too.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Drought monitoring and reporting in Utah | USDA Climate Hubs


Drought impacts information helps the State of Utah in drought monitoring, planning and response efforts, and U.S. Drought Monitor authors in categorizing drought severity. However, drought impacts in Utah have historically been under-reported, meaning that important information does not...




www.climatehubs.usda.gov




*Range*

On rangeland ecosystems, there is a pronounced lack of vegetation production, and in some areas this presents the problem of over-utilization of forage. Without enough forage, cattlemen are having to come off early or go on late on private or permitted lands.
Limited forage for both cattle and wildlife, brittle range vegetation, vegetation is brown.
Lack of available forage for sale
No mosture of significance, range conditions deteriorating; Shrubs such as sagebrush producing little or no seed heads.
Dry ponds, little available water. Farmers and rancher have been hauling water to livestock.
Lots of dry dust
Many areas in Carbon, Emery, Grand and San Juan Counties with below average vegetation production
From the Bureau of Land Management (BLM): 25-75% reduction in grazing allotments which will have longer term impacts with lack of seed production
Livestock came off the ranges early
Increased livestock sales,
Less forage growth than usual. Body condition of livestock are not the best condition.
Very stressful time for producers


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

The reductions in grazing have been going on for awhile and continue. Not to mention the lack of buyers last fall. And of course this is not just a Utah problem.

Yes there needs to be compromises and producers are being forced to do their part if not for any other reason than economics. I'm not sure why some people think the demise of ranching is going to be a godsend to hunters.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

People have no idea of what the ranchers do to keep water sources open and in some areas the troughs for the cattle are about the only place that wildlife can get a good drink. 

Those who complain about mountain maggots and cattle should have to work with the range riders for a month to see just what they do that also benefits wildlife.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

If tags have to be cut and grazing permits reduced, it seems like a great time to reduce the number of feral horses on the range.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> Not only are the elk competing with the cattle but they are also competing with the mule deer. If this drought continues another 6 months. We are going to see a huge drop off in deer numbers next year and probably a lower calf elk survival rate too.


Yep, and it will never be mentioned one time as a major cause when UWN does our quarterly "save the deer herd" threads.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Keep a watchful eye on anterless tags and be vocal in supporting biologists' recommendations if they feel a need to reduce elk numbers to maintain healthy herds. With the water and feed situation at its current state on public and private lands, there may be a need to reduce elk numbers. Also, pray for rain.

I graze only on private lands and sold 40% of my herd in February because of drought conditions. I am currently contemplating selling the remaining 60%. Cattle prices are in the toilet. I just sold a 660lb calf for 1/2 the price of what it would have been worth just 6 months ago. Cow/calf pairs are down 40-50% of what they were worth 3 months ago. 

Water from the canyon next to our place in UT County is running approx 1/5 of normal for this time of year. By July it might not even keep the fish alive. Just sad. Everyone is going to take a hit in this situation.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Packout said:


> I graze only on private lands and sold 40% of my herd in February because of drought conditions. I am currently contemplating selling the remaining 60%. Cattle prices are in the toilet. I just sold a 660lb calf for 1/2 the price of what it would have been worth just 6 months ago. Cow/calf pairs are down 40-50% of what they were worth 3 months ago.


It is amazing at the price of beef in the grocery store that the rancher is taking it in the shorts. 

My nephew picked up two beef steers for free last year from down south but the only butcher that he could find that would take them from the hoofs to the freezer was out in Vernal. With as many elk that he has shot and butchered I told him to do it himself but he wanted a actual butcher to do it.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

It won’t be just the elk getting thinned. You’ll see extra bison, pronghorn and deer tags issued if we keep heading down the path we are on.

I hope they cut grazing permits down too, but the wildlife seem to always get the shaft first.

ps I wouldn’t turn in ANYONE that wanted to shoot a wild horse or 10, if I happened to witness it. Probably ask the guy what his favorite kinda beer was and buy him a cold case of it. We need to start with those land carp first since they live in the areas That’ll get hit the hardest anyways.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

CPAjeff said:


> If tags have to be cut and grazing permits reduced, it seems like a great time to reduce the number of feral horses on the range.


Boy, that's opening a can of worms you'll never get the lid back on!


Critter said:


> People have no idea of what the ranchers do to keep water sources open and in some areas the troughs for the cattle are about the only place that wildlife can get a good drink.
> 
> Those who complain about mountain maggots and cattle should have to work with the range riders for a month to see just what they do that also benefits wildlife.


Been there, done it far longer than I wanted. Hardest work one can imagine. 

You ever had to drag a cow that had been gut shot with an arrow uphill for 1/4 mile? Maybe they should eliminate archery hunting too.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

middlefork said:


> I'm not sure why some people think the demise of ranching is going to be a godsend to hunters.


It is not accurate to portray a statement suggesting that during record drought, grazing on public lands should be reduced if the the wild animal populations need to be reduced as anyone favoring “the demise of ranching.”


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> People have no idea of what the ranchers do to keep water sources open and in some areas the troughs for the cattle are about the only place that wildlife can get a good drink.
> 
> Those who complain about mountain maggots and cattle should have to work with the range riders for a month to see just what they do that also benefits wildlife.


They wouldn’t have to keep water sources open if their cows weren’t there to stomp them in every day. animals have managed to find water in the driest areas of the desert for thousands of years. Without cattle to compete with, I’d imagine they’d still manage to survive. What else do they do for our public lands and wildlife? Besides let their animals over graze, sometimes for months after their allotment dates end, what else do they do? Push around wildlife? Wanna talk about the noxious weeds they bring and spread into our public lands? What about the trail and habitat damage? Yeah off road vehicles do tear up a hillside, but they don’t hold a candle to what 10 cows single file do to a trail or a hillside. They turn managed public trails to absolute powder, making it extremely hard for other public users to use them. They reduce fire hazards? Anyone that’s been around utah the last 5 years in utah knows that’s a complete lie. They over graze everywhere in this state yet the whole thing goes up in flames with nothing to stop it. I’ve met a lot of entitled hunters on public lands over the years, but none of them can compare to the entitlement felt by the cattlemen. They “pay to be on that land”, giving them more right than anyone else to be up there. At $1.89 per cow and calf or whatever it is a year, they can pound sand when it comes to their advocacy of reducing public resources so their private resources can have more to eat.

I don’t feel sorry for any rancher. They chose that life style and line of work. No one made them do it. And when things get hard, it’s the cows and sheep that need to be reduced first before killing off any wildlife is even adiscussion.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

middlefork said:


> The reductions in grazing have been going on for awhile and continue. Not to mention the lack of buyers last fall. And of course this is not just a Utah problem.
> 
> Yes there needs to be compromises and producers are being forced to do their part if not for any other reason than economics. I'm not sure why some people think the demise of ranching is going to be a godsend to hunters.


In some parts of the state this may be true. I know what the attitude is in rural areas of the state. I’ve been in the meetings. I’m not sure “compromise” is the most fitting word for many of the folks who use public lands for grazing. The demise of of ranching is not what I want, true balance is what I want, and this is headed toward one of the worst years we’ve ever seen. I haven’t seen it quite this bad, ever.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> It is not accurate to portray a statement suggesting that during record drought, grazing on public lands should be reduced if the the wild animal populations need to be reduced as anyone favoring “the demise of ranching.”


It was more directed to the poster directly below your post than anyone else. And as stated the producers are already and have at least in the past year reduced their herds considerably. The fact stands that the producers have already born the losses and as yet no herd reductions have been proposed for wildlife. Will this change? Perhaps it will. As I understand it there is only one dedicated voice on the WB for producers. If others see the need to reduce populations of livestock or wildlife so be it.

And in case anyone missed it there has been a 25-75% reduction on both BLM and FS allotments.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Not only are the elk competing with the cattle but they are also competing with the mule deer. If this drought continues another 6 months. We are going to see a huge drop off in deer numbers next year and probably a lower calf elk survival rate too.


All true


Critter said:


> People have no idea of what the ranchers do to keep water sources open and in some areas the troughs for the cattle are about the only place that wildlife can get a good drink.
> 
> Those who complain about mountain maggots and cattle should have to work with the range riders for a month to see just what they do that also benefits wildlife.


They are also the cause for drying up ponds and water sources as well. A cow can drink up to like 25 gallons of water a day during the summer. Cattle and mountain maggots put far more strain on our public land and water sources than any wildlife ever dreamed of or anywhere near what they replace. Water sources would be just fine, and better off. Promise.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> They wouldn’t have to keep water sources open if their cows weren’t there to stomp them in every day. animals have managed to find water in the driest areas of the desert for thousands of years. Without cattle to compete with, I’d imagine they’d still manage to survive. What else do they do for our public lands and wildlife? Besides let their animals over graze, sometimes for months after their allotment dates end, what else do they do? Push around wildlife? Wanna talk about the noxious weeds they bring and spread into our public lands? What about the trail and habitat damage? Yeah off road vehicles do tear up a hillside, but they don’t hold a candle to what 10 cows single file do to a trail or a hillside. They turn managed public trails to absolute powder, making it extremely hard for other public users to use them. They reduce fire hazards? Anyone that’s been around utah the last 5 years in utah knows that’s a complete lie. They over graze everywhere in this state yet the whole thing goes up in flames with nothing to stop it. I’ve met a lot of entitled hunters on public lands over the years, but none of them can compare to the entitlement felt by the cattlemen. They “pay to be on that land”, giving them more right than anyone else to be up there. At $1.89 per cow and calf or whatever it is a year, they can pound sand when it comes to their advocacy of reducing public resources so their private resources can have more to eat.
> 
> I don’t feel sorry for any rancher. They chose that life style and line of work. No one made them do it. And when things get hard, it’s the cows and sheep that need to be reduced first before killing off any wildlife is even adiscussion.


Generally all ponds have water in them, and would have water in them the entire year if 50 animals drinking 3-20 gallons a day weren’t draining them. Livestock producers as far as water on public lands are a net negative not positive lol. Cattle drink A LOT of water.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> In some parts of the state this may be true. I know what the attitude is in rural areas of the state. I’ve been in the meetings. I’m not sure “compromise” is the most fitting word for many of the folks who use public lands for grazing. The demise of of ranching is not what I want, true balance is what I want, and this is headed toward one of the worst years we’ve ever seen. I haven’t seen it quite this bad, ever.


And why would you expect anything different? You have people who rely on livestock for their livelihood versus people whos main concern is sport/recreation. Is it going to get bad? Sure is. And just to make CPAjeff not feel left out, yes please do something about feral horses. Isn't that somewhere on your D vs R check list?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I want to be very clear


middlefork said:


> And why would you expect anything different? You have people who rely on livestock for their livelihood versus people whos main concern is sport/recreation. Is it going to get bad? Sure is. And just to make CPAjeff not feel left out, yes please do something about feral horses. Isn't that somewhere on your D vs R check list?


Yes, as I’ve said many times I support removing every single wild horse from every part of public land in the west. Every single one. They have no place on this dry landscape and are destroying it in the places they are. It’s going to be super prominent this year. The issue is, I don’t believe it’s a viable solution to find, because no matter who has been in charge nothing is ever done about the wild horse issue. It’s too hot of an issue so everyone who matters ignores it. I fully support aggressively addressing the wild horse issue. Wipe them off the western landscape, native wildlife matter far more.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

MooseMeat said:


> I don’t feel sorry for any rancher. They chose that life style and line of work. No one made them do it. And when things get hard, it’s the cows and sheep that need to be reduced first before killing off any wildlife is even adiscussion.


 It's livelihood for rural Utahn's; homes, families, futures. Lose rural land based economy, ranches get sold and subdivided. Cows or cabins that's the reality. Livestock grazing will be reduced and wildlife will as well. Horses are the worst! I'd love to see locals conduct roundups and tell BLM come get um.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

OriginalOscar said:


> It's livelihood for rural Utahn's; homes, families, futures. Lose rural land based economy, ranches get sold and subdivided. Cows or cabins that's the reality. Livestock grazing will be reduced and wildlife will as well. Horses are the worst! I'd love to see locals conduct roundups and tell BLM come get um.


Hard to turn FS and BLM into cabin communities. Which is where the public grazing happens. I don’t care if they graze private land. Or if they turn it into cabins. Either way 99.99999999% of us who do enjoy our public lands and resources wouldn’t ever have access to that private land to begin with. Do with it whatever they please. They’ll complain about the wildlife on it and want it gone either way.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

MooseMeat said:


> Hard to turn FS and BLM into cabin communities. Which is where the public grazing happens. I don’t care if they graze private land. Or if they turn it into cabins. Either way 99.99999999% of us who do enjoy our public lands and resources wouldn’t ever have access to that private land to begin with. Do with it whatever they please. They’ll complain about the wildlife on it and want it gone either way.


What is Winter Range and CWMU's?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

OriginalOscar said:


> What is Winter Range and CWMU's?


You mean besides FS, state, SITLA and BLM? Private. And how much is private? Hard to tell, but certainly not the majority now (of what still exists anyways). So when do depredation hunts and land owner tags come into play? Here’s a hint: it’s when the wildlife start eating THEIR feed on the private property. And who loses again? The public and the wildlife. Who wins again? The private ranchers who get their way and get compensated by the state for the wildlife living on their property (you know, the ones who don’t get shot for trespassing first).

turn it into cabins. That would be a better situation honestly. At least if it gets turned into cabins, a lot of them don’t allow hunting within the communities so they are somewhat safe. Anywhere else they get killed for existing and trying to survive if it’s private.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

If you want a deer to hunt the rest of your life as Utah gets innovated with human growth, Whitetail is the deer species that has and can survive and multiply in populated areas. Far less range needed and they don't migrate. They're range is sufficient with 7 square miles, as to Mule Deer that have a range of 100 miles or more.

Could you imagine having an opportunity to harvest 3 deer a year in Utah? I know tags are liberal in some states because they overpopulate areas and need to be thinned out. As far as table fair, Whitetail is better than a Muley that's been grazing on sagebrush.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting proposal to help our overstrained wild game populations- introduce a non-native invasive species to the mix!


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

I’ve shot a number of whitetails, and though it is fun to hunt them and a nice change of hunting tactics at times, I wouldn’t trade 10 muleys for 100 whitetails. A muledeer is something special. And it’s irreplaceable. There are a lot of guys who just want a deer to shoot at and that idea sounds great to them. But to me and many others, that idea is just sad. Wanting whitetails instead of muleys is like saying we’d rather have wild pigs than pronghorn, turkeys or elk. We’ve introduced non native species that flourished in the past because they could out compete other native species, for our own selfish reasons. Now the state spends millions to try and eradicate them and bring back the native populations to a stable number.

it’s not a good idea in my opinion.

and I’d take the steaks off a muley over a whitetail, any day.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

History of Grazing in Utah | Utah Department of Agriculture and Food







ag.utah.gov





"Well managed livestock grazing, though poorly understood by the average citizen, is the most effective way to manage vegetation on a large scale to benefit watershed health and preserve wildlife habitat. Improving grazing management on Utah’s public and private rangelands should be viewed as ‘high leverage’ and a long-term priority. A 1998 Government Accounting Office report titled, Forest Service Barriers to Generating Revenue or Reducing Costs, portrays the importance of ‘economic sustainability’ on US Forest Service Lands and demonstrates the critical importance of multiple uses for the lands. The report provides good examples for a more ‘capitalistic’ approach to public land management based on private land models."


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> If you want a deer to hunt the rest of your life as Utah gets innovated with human growth, Whitetail is the deer species that has and can survive and multiply in populated areas. Far less range needed and they don't migrate. They're range is sufficient with 7 square miles, as to Mule Deer that have a range of 100 miles or more.
> 
> Could you imagine having an opportunity to harvest 3 deer a year in Utah? I know tags are liberal in some states because they overpopulate areas and need to be thinned out. As far as table fair, Whitetail is better than a Muley that's been grazing on sagebrush.


I've been saying we should import whitetails as long as uwn has been around. People get panicked at the thought of hybrids, or them expanding too far but that's simple to fix, protect them within a specific unit, allow them to be shot on sight outside of that boundary. Maybe start on some of our more sparse desert lands... bring in some coues and see how they do. Swazey Mts perhaps would be a perfect place to start.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> I've been saying we should import whitetails as long as uwn has been around. People get panicked at the thought of hybrids, or them expanding too far but that's simple to fix, protect them within a specific unit, allow them to be shot on sight outside of that boundary. Maybe start on some of our more sparse desert lands... bring in some coues and see how they do. Swazey Mts perhaps would be a perfect place to start.
> 
> -DallanC


I wonder how many mule deer would be shot on sight with the shooter claiming that they were whitetails? I know that down in Arizona we find whitetails up in the hills and the mule deer down in the flats.

As for coues deer, I think that they would freeze to death the first winter. The one that I shot in December had zero fat on his body and I doubt that they would survive on the meager offerings that farmers fields would offer them in the winter.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

There have been whitetails in the state for many years in low numbers, particularly in the Cache valley area and Heber. If they were all that, they would have established themselves on their own. There are some notable disease concerns in having lots of whitetails here, and comparing eastern whitetail habitat to western muley habitat is like comparing apples to pumpkins.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Catherder said:


> There have been whitetails in the state for many years in low numbers, particularly in the Cache valley area and Heber. If they were all that, they would have established themselves on their own. There are some notable disease concerns in having lots of whitetails here, and comparing eastern whitetail habitat to western muley habitat is like comparing apples to pumpkins.


I remember seeing a whitetail buck caught on a trailcam in Heber back in 2005 I think it was. Decent buck.

As for disease, Idk... I know scientists looked at the DNA of Whitetails, Mule deer and Black Tails and found Mule deer are hybrids of Blacktails and Whitetails interbreeding. Apparently during the last ice age the coasts were separated with whitetails to the east, Blacktails to the west. As the glaciers receded and deer moved into those areas they met, bred, and created Mule Deer. 

Usually Hybrids arent as durable as the parent species... but sometimes thats not the case. IDK which is the more durable species atm... it seems like whitetails thrive more in certain regions. Mule deer tend to not reproduce as fast.

In the Lewis and Clark journals, our first recorded record of the discovery of Mule deer, they state the "big eared deer" were pretty scarce compared to other species. So, in absence of technology, cattle, ranching, settlement... just the native indians with bows, Mule Deer were still not thriving as other species (Elk for example were a plains animal back then, with herds in the thousands along with the bison).

History is pretty neat.

-DallanC


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

There have been several sightings in both the Heber and Cache valley areas over the years and the point remains, if they are so superior, they should have taken over on their own. 

As for animal disease, that is an area I know a few things about and there are concerns. There are a couple of conditions that minimally affect whitetails, but hammer other deer species. Are you prepared to sacrifice the moose herd or other big game to introduce whitetails? Finally, to your point about history. All points are valid, but muleys DID adapt to human caused effects on their environment and flourished to the point we constantly rant about getting them back to the "good old days" numbers. History IS neat. They also are adapting before our eyes as "city herds" are proliferating all across the state, and causing more problems than benefits in the eyes of many. Do we want to force introduce another city adapted species to the mix? The mayors would love that. 

Lastly, this thread is about how bad our range is currently. Adding non native species is not an answer to issues of drought and range conditions. The feral horses do enough damage, with limited control. I'm out.


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## stripey22 (Oct 12, 2009)

middlefork said:


> History of Grazing in Utah | Utah Department of Agriculture and Food
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are the grazing rules? I have tried to find any online source and also called the Forrest service and not found any info. Are there any rules as to how long cattle can be in any one spot or is there a certain timeframe they can be there? A certain date they must be removed?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

stripey22 said:


> What are the grazing rules? I have tried to find any online source and also called the Forrest service and not found any info. Are there any rules as to how long cattle can be in any one spot or is there a certain timeframe they can be there? A certain date they must be removed?


It depends but yes there are rules. I believe each allotment is unique as to rules and times. Some information in the link below for BLM. I'm sure the FS is similar.









Programs: Natural Resources: Rangelands and Grazing: Livestock Grazing | Bureau of Land Management







www.blm.gov


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

As far as Rules, Not sure but the forest service tells my families herd were to start feeding, when to move them to the next area as so forth. The FS is supposed to monitor the landscape and adjust accordingly. As far as water, where we herd my great grandpa developed a little spring and piped it into multiple basins roughly (2 miles worth) that would normally be dry. These areas hold Elk and Deer because they have water now. Before it would be way to dry to hold anything.


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## stripey22 (Oct 12, 2009)

Last year there were cattle in a draw i like to hunt and they were there for over three straight months. Never moved at all and they were the same cows with same ear tags. Very frustrating.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Catherder said:


> As for animal disease, that is an area I know a few things about and there are concerns. There are a couple of conditions that minimally affect whitetails, but hammer other deer species. Are you prepared to sacrifice the moose herd or other big game to introduce whitetails?


No, and thats why I recommended an isolated place like the Swazey Mts. No moose there... just a few deer and alot of wild horses. But, in places like the North-Eastern corner, where moose live... is where we currently have the whitetail sightings. So that point is kindof moot.



> Finally, to your point about history. All points are valid, but muleys DID adapt to human caused effects on their environment and flourished to the point we constantly rant about getting them back to the "good old days" numbers. History IS neat.


Good old days was in the 1980s... according to the state harvest data:










Mule deer exploded, initially... when the west was settled and the war on predators went all out. We decimated predators of all types in the early 1900s and deer thrived in that vaccum.



> They also are adapting before our eyes as "city herds" are proliferating all across the state, and causing more problems than benefits in the eyes of many. Do we want to force introduce another city adapted species to the mix? The mayors would love that.
> 
> Lastly, this thread is about how bad our range is currently. Adding non native species is not an answer to issues of drought and range conditions. The feral horses do enough damage, with limited control. I'm out.


Depends on the species. Chuckar and Huns are a huge success in our drought ridden desert areas. Mt Goats are thriving in areas of the state where they were introduced (in cases thriving so well we use offspring to transplant to other regions).

/shrug

-DallanC


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

middlefork said:


> History of Grazing in Utah | Utah Department of Agriculture and Food
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Blessed to hunt Deseret 2016 with my boy and amazing example of well managed rangeland. They offered orientation about management of the ranch including the grazing program. Many ranchers manage private and public lands incredibly well for the betterment of wildlife and our incredible landscapes.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Depends on the species. Chuckar and Huns are a huge success in our drought ridden desert areas. Mt Goats are thriving in areas of the state where they were introduced (in cases thriving so well we use offspring to transplant to other regions).
> 
> /shrug
> 
> -DallanC


You also need to look at the amount of guzzlers that the DWR has place out in the desert to keep the chuckars and huns around. 

But the state of Nevada has done a fantastic job of getting chuckars to thrive in just about every canyon that I have hiked or rode through out there.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

OriginalOscar said:


> Many ranchers manage private and public lands incredibly well for the betterment of wildlife and our incredible landscapes.


Keep telling yourself that


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

OriginalOscar said:


> Blessed to hunt Deseret 2016 with my boy and amazing example of well managed rangeland. They offered orientation about management of the ranch including the grazing program. Many ranchers manage private and public lands incredibly well for the betterment of wildlife and our incredible landscapes.


My first two years I was able to carry a rifle on the deer hunt were spent hunting Deseret. The trespass fee at the time I think was $15.00. My dad thought it was well worth it to avoid the crowds on public land. The third year they raised it to $25.00. That ended my private land hunting for many years after that.

I was sorry when the state decided to purchase Antelope Island instead of Deseret thinking of missed opportunities. It probably still offers more opportunity for hunting than if the state were to manage it.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Moose, Do all your neighbors keep their yards and homes maintained to the highest standards? I'm sure that just like some of your neighbors there are farmers and ranchers who will not meet all your high standards. But rest assured that there are plenty of federal authorities who rely on the jobs of managing the resources and put plenty of effort into justifying them. Much like your local code enforcement.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

middlefork said:


> Moose, Do all your neighbors keep their yards and homes maintained to the highest standards? I'm sure that just like some of your neighbors there are farmers and ranchers who will not meet all your high standards. But rest assured that there are plenty of federal authorities who rely on the jobs of managing the resources and put plenty of effort into justifying them. Much like your local code enforcement.


Reading his responses I waffle between he's 14 living at home or 41 living in parents basement. Lack of respect for hardworking folks growing crops and raising livestock is just sad.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

middlefork said:


> Moose, Do all your neighbors keep their yards and homes maintained to the highest standards? I'm sure that just like some of your neighbors there are farmers and ranchers who will not meet all your high standards. But rest assured that there are plenty of federal authorities who rely on the jobs of managing the resources and put plenty of effort into justifying them. Much like your local code enforcement.


You know what happens when you don’t meet the regulations, requirements and date deadlines set by the county, city or HOA? You get hauled to court, fined or otherwise punished for your actions and failure to hold up your end of the agreement. Do you know what happens when cows over graze an area or stay on the mountain days, weeks and even months after their allotted time by official representatives? Nothing.

in January of this year, on FS land, I have trail cam pictures of not just 1 or 2 but 7 cows over a period of multiple days. They should have been off the mountain months prior to that. That was the agreement the ranchers agreed to with the government. But there they were. Taking winter resources from the wildlife that were in that area as well, during one of their most vulnerable time of the year. This isn’t an isolated incident. It happens all over the place. Dates, rules, etc. all end in “-ish” for those guys.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

It’s gonna be interesting to see what the next few months hold for our wildlife. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them offer additional tags in certain areas to knock down populations even more.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MooseMeat said:


> in January of this year, on FS land, I have trail cam pictures of not just 1 or 2 but 7 cows over a period of multiple days. They should have been off the mountain months prior to that. That was the agreement the ranchers agreed to with the government. But there they were. Taking winter resources from the wildlife that were in that area as well, during one of their most vulnerable time of the year. This isn’t an isolated incident. It happens all over the place. Dates, rules, etc. all end in “-ish” for those guys.


So did you report it? Did you even think about contacting the rancher? That's about $10,000.00 out of his pocket. You really think he just blows that off? I deal with ranchers every fall looking for strays. It is not hard to let them know where you are seeing livestock that you think don't belong. Most cows have an inbred sense to know when to head home. In most cases the ranchers only need to drop a fence and they start heading down. The last few may need some encouragement.

I spent some time in Wyoming last fall and EVERY rancher was out making sure his cows were off the forest. Can they miss a few? Sure but the would love to know where they are.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

middlefork said:


> So did you report it? Did you even think about contacting the rancher? That's about $10,000.00 out of his pocket. You really think he just blows that off? I deal with ranchers every fall looking for strays. It is not hard to let them know where you are seeing livestock that you think don't belong. Most cows have an inbred sense to know when to head home. In most cases the ranchers only need to drop a fence and they start heading down. The last few may need some encouragement.
> 
> I spent some time in Wyoming last fall and EVERY rancher was out making sure his cows were off the forest. Can they miss a few? Sure but the would love to know where they are.


What good does it do to report it 4 months later in May when I get back Into that area?

Ive reported cows before to FS that were still way high on the mountain in December and you know what I was told? “Yeah, you’ll have that.” These were visible from I-15 every day. Sounds like they were pretty concerned to me. That’s just less mouths they have to worry about feeding throughout the winter on their own dime. I think they call that a “freebie”


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MooseMeat said:


> What good does it do to report it 4 months later in May when I get back Into that area?
> 
> Ive reported cows before to FS that were still way high on the mountain in December and you know what I was told? “Yeah, you’ll have that.” These were visible from I-15 every day. Sounds like they were pretty concerned to me. That’s just less mouths they have to worry about feeding throughout the winter on their own dime. I think they call that a “freebie”


 No that is called dead cows. You really think they survive the winter up there? And given the knowledge they were there I'm sure the rancher would have tried to move them off. Stray cows are not "money/ freebie". They are a loss.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

middlefork said:


> No that is called dead cows. You really think they survive the winter up there? And given the knowledge they were there I'm sure the rancher would have tried to move them off. Stray cows are not "money/ freebie". They are a loss.


Dead cows on a bare south facing slope that numerous deer and elk use annually to winter on? You really think so?

it’s a wonder we have any animals left at all if that’s the case.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Plenty of thoughtful ranchers around and we inherited elements of our conservation legacy from them historically, after such people stepped in to end a cycle of range degradation. 

But there are also plenty of average ranchers on public land and sadly more than a few that don't take their stewardship seriously. I've seen more than one spring box destroyed by cattle and miles of degraded stream banks. Plus the cattle left on allotments way past contracted time and you can visibly see the damage to critical forage. 

But its just not black and white. I admire hard workers who take their responsibility seriously on public land but I also don't put the industry on any pedestal.

I'd love to see greater oversight of public rangeland but it's not likely to happen. Ultimately I do wish they'd reduce domestic herd sizes on public land during these droughts. It only makes sense. I'm also not interested in eradicating public lands ranching but our lands need better conservation in years like this. And I'm more than willing to accept the cost incurred. 

These issues will get more important given the trends NOAA released recently that show a steady increase in drought conditions and rising temperature. We can't escape these hard realities and inter-stakeholder conflicts on public land will likely get worse.

*PS....I hope we are smarter than introducing another invasive species as a "solution" to droughts impacts on native ungulates


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I'll say this and get out of the Kitchen. I pushed/tended cattle for a long time on the open range and I've know what cattle can do to the landscape. I've read they make big dusty trails across the landscape. Ya, they do, and hunters use those trails to get to areas to hunt. I've also seen the numbers of deer and elk go up and down during that time spent on a horse covering more areas and miles than most hunters ever will on foot. 

The only numbers I've seen change, were the limit on how many cows you could range depended upon the feed available. Dry years permits would be less, but there was a limit on great years. As for the wildlife, I saw more population numbers change than anything. I blame that on the folks selling tags and needing money.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I saw a whitetail doe running through a field in the Chalk Creek area 6-7 years ago.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Speaking of overgrazing and staying being time frames, what has the penalty for Cliven and his crew been thus far? They might be a few weeks over their stay...


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> Speaking of overgrazing and staying being time frames, what has the penalty for Cliven and his crew been thus far? They might be a few weeks over their stay...


tip of the iceberg. when the poaching gets tough, the tough get to poaching...and then set a fire to cover it up. i'll never understand the mindset of the entitled. 

on topic, i don't have the answers but have enjoyed reading the opinions in this thread.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> Speaking of overgrazing and staying being time frames, what has the penalty for Cliven and his crew been thus far? They might be a few weeks over their stay...


A classic example. Thanks for sharing. I wonder if he will reduce his herd or if they will just die off with the drought? No reason for anyone to obey the law if they are not going enforce it.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Luckily Cliven doesn't represent most ranchers. But it's also hard to summarize that situation as lacking enforcement. They've tried multiple legal routes but that type of domestic extremism thrives with confrontation with law enforcement. Democratic republics don't provide great answers to fighting these types of thugs and hooligans given we don't have a high tolerance for armed standoffs.


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## 1trhall (Oct 18, 2017)

CPAjeff said:


> If tags have to be cut and grazing permits reduced, it seems like a great time to reduce the number of feral horses on the range.


 Absolutely agree with this 100%. They are devastating to the habitat especially on the west desert.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

The horses need to be drastically cut. They are NOT native, but the are invasive. 
But the environmental bleeding hearts just file a new lawsuit on every proposal made. 
They are inbred, and NOT healthy at all. 
A big chunk of them are blind or mostly blind. 
If you have ever spent any time on the west desert it is pretty easy to see a bunch of them are not right.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Perhaps we need to transplant some mountain lions out onto the West Desert. 

I have heard that they like horse meat.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

There is already plenty of kitty 😸 cats out there. 
We used to chase them out west a whole bunch. 

Not knocking the idea at all ☺


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Critter said:


> Perhaps we need to transplant some mountain lions out onto the West Desert.
> 
> I have heard that they like horse meat.



After the cats have thinned out the horse herds out there, we could ship them over to the Book Cliffs!


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I want to be very clear
> 
> Yes, as I’ve said many times I support removing every single wild horse from every part of public land in the west. Every single one. They have no place on this dry landscape and are destroying it in the places they are. It’s going to be super prominent this year. The issue is, I don’t believe it’s a viable solution to find, because no matter who has been in charge nothing is ever done about the wild horse issue. It’s too hot of an issue so everyone who matters ignores it. I fully support aggressively addressing the wild horse issue. Wipe them off the western landscape, native wildlife matter far more.


One year I had a rancher on the South West Desert unit ask me to shoot every feral horse I saw in the gut with a .22.......

Never tried it but that conversation was a strange one lol


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Dry as hell, hot as hell. And to those thanking those wonderful public land cattle users for their water sources. It’s been just wonderful to watch deer and elk in an area I’ve been the past couple months every week using a water hole just be gone a week after the cows showed up. Dry as a bone now. Oh well I suppose. Those cattle provide so many water sources for wildlife! Or theres reality, where they dry up water sources in a week that would last plenty of deer and elk all summer.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

The reality is that people running cattle HAVE to put in water troughs in areas because their cows will completely decimate any natural water sources that would and do hold water for wildlife, prior to their arrival on the landscape.

I went and put out cams last weekend. On hillsides that usually have 12”+ green grass covering them this time of year, was almost completely bare with what little grass there was, already looking like it was drying up. Deer looked awful. Elk were skin and bones. Cows looked terrible. Bulls had good horn growth so far, but all their ribs and hip bones were showing. In 80 degrees they covered a lot of ground, out in the open and ate until 10 in the morning before making their way to the shade. The worst part is, the cattle are on their way into those areas very soon to clean out what’s left. I’m sure they will immediately improve the range conditions once they show up.

like I’ve said before, it’s amazing wildlife has been able to survive for thousands of years in many areas before cattlemen showed up to save the day.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> The reality is that people running cattle HAVE to put in water troughs in areas because their cows will completely decimate any natural water sources that would and do hold water for wildlife, prior to their arrival on the landscape.
> 
> I went and put out cams last weekend. On hillsides that usually have 12”+ green grass covering them this time of year, was almost completely bare with what little grass there was, already looking like it was drying up. Deer looked awful. Elk were skin and bones. Cows looked terrible. Bulls had good horn growth so far, but all their ribs and hip bones were showing. In 80 degrees they covered a lot of ground, out in the open and ate until 10 in the morning before making their way to the shade. The worst part is, the cattle are on their way into those areas very soon to clean out what’s left. I’m sure they will immediately improve the range conditions once they show up.
> 
> like I’ve said before, it’s amazing wildlife has been able to survive for thousands of years in many areas before cattlemen showed up to save the day.


It’s wild. The “excuses” people want to pat them on the back. Watching a water hole look nearly untouched for 2 months with deer and elk using it daily, disappear in 1 week because of cattle.....well.....maybe some of you should come to grips with an animal drinking 20-30 gallons a day does not naturally belong on the landscape that is dry, hot, desert in one of the worst years we’ve ever experienced. Thanks, but no thanks, livestock grazing on public lands as is, is a huge net negative.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

hope that the sustainability model gets worked out before we get smacked in the face with reality. there will be some good years and bad ones. plan for the worst and hope for the best.


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## Bux n Dux (Jun 6, 2021)

APD said:


> hope that the sustainability model gets worked out before we get smacked in the face with reality.


Too late for that.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Vacation this weekend and lots of cattle still in pastures across central Utah. Ranges in horrible shape and ranchers already experiencing reduced grazing. This drought is extreme and likely to have lasting impacts on wildlife and livestock for several years. Listen to Governor Cox and pray for rain!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

OriginalOscar said:


> Vacation this weekend and lots of cattle still in pastures across central Utah. Ranges in horrible shape and ranchers already experiencing reduced grazing. This drought is extreme and likely to have lasting impacts on wildlife and livestock for several years. Listen to Governor Cox and pray for rain!


Pray sure. Also, maybe let’s change some water policies, laws, and listen to science and climate issues while we’re at it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Pray sure. Also, maybe let’s change some water policies, laws, and listen to science and climate issues while we’re at it.


And maybe, just maybe, do something more than complain on the Internet.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> And maybe, just maybe, do something more than complain on the Internet.


I do, and Vanilla. I’ll be putting you on ignore. I’d appreciate it if you did the same. I have no interest interacting with you on here beyond right now.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Pray sure. Also, maybe let’s change some water policies, laws, and listen to science and climate issues while we’re at it.


You really don't think restrictions are being made at the moment?
Better try and dig a little deeper.
Making drastic changes takes time and needs to go through many channels.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> You really don't think restrictions are being made at the moment?
> Better try and dig a little deeper.
> Making drastic changes takes time and needs to go through many channels.


I’ve yet to see true momentum for actual meaningful policy changes in Utah due to agricultural and farm bureau pressures. What I’ve seen mostly is pushes for ways to find more water to use like new reservoirs that will further dry up the GSL, and a pipeline out of Lake Powell. Hour restrictions and stuff are fine and dandy. There’s a hell of a lot more meaningful things that could be done. Instead we look for ways to put more stresses on already very stressed water sources. And with what are becoming more and more obvious climatic changes occurring and a warming climate, this ain’t gonna get better over the next 30 years. Too many people continually want to ignore it, until we’re at a point that it can’t be.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Glossing over the last page of this thread, I am suddenly reminded how much i HATE sheep.




OriginalOscar said:


> Vacation this weekend and lots of cattle still in pastures across central Utah. Ranges in horrible shape and ranchers already experiencing reduced grazing.


Or their simply not out to their allotment yet. 
I found this website awhile ago. I've been keeping it under my hat , because it effects hunting/scouting. Think of it as an information honey hole, when applied to an area your considering working and when.




__





Livestock and Grazing | WFRC Natural and Other Resources






www.wfrc.org






Anyway, not in response to OriginalOscar:
It occurs to me, with this drought, sheep are going to absolutely FUBAR a calving area this year. I've been watching this area for a couple years now, and filmed this last year.








2020 Elk Parade


Herding up, and migrating out after calving




www.bitchute.com




I can even tell you when they herded up and left the area, and I've a pretty good idea where they went, though I'm not 100% sure. My point is, extreme draught, sheep grazing what is usually a lush calving area, is probably going to really do a number on the elk this year. In the past, I've seen sheep bump them from their beds. This has been a traditional calving area for awhile I think.

Yeah, I don't just hate sheep, I ****ING HATE SHEEP.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It’s hilarious to hear people criticize Governor Cox on this. I really wish people would just have the stones to be open about why they really are bothered right now.

Some people don’t like that he called for prayer because that offends their sensitive anti-religious feelers. So they make up all these other excuses about what they “wish” he’d done. I wonder if these hypothetical people I’m referring to are even paying attention? Seems like Governor Cox has been throwing everything at his disposal and the kitchen sink at this one. But hey, if you’re mad because people pray, then do you, I guess. Hypothetically, maybe someone on here has learned to hide his bigotry better than the past?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

| Natural Resources Conservation Service







www.nrcs.usda.gov


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Water Conservation Plans – Conserve Water Utah







conservewater.utah.gov


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

A Historical Perspective on Drought


NCEI scientist Richard Heim compares the three most severe droughts that occurred in the United States over the last 120 years.




www.ncei.noaa.gov


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> It’s hilarious to hear people criticize Governor Cox on this. I really wish people would just have the stones to be open about why they really are bothered right now.
> 
> Some people don’t like that he called for prayer because that offends their sensitive anti-religious feelers. So they make up all these other excuses about what they “wish” he’d done. I wonder if these hypothetical people I’m referring to are even paying attention? Seems like Governor Cox has been throwing everything at his disposal and the kitchen sink at this one. But hey, if you’re mad because people pray, then do you, I guess. Hypothetically, maybe someone on here has learned to hide his bigotry better than the past?



Yeah, in watching the news and other sources, it is apparent that the "prayer" criticism is derived from pre existing hostility to religion in general and not from some obvious alternative that the governor could have been doing to instantaneously alleviate the problem. This statement may not necessarily (or may) apply to various posters here discussing the topic on the different threads. As you and the guv himself stated in his follow up comments, it is NOT the only thing he was doing about the crisis.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

To be fair, it is the only thing he offered in his own recognition that existing efforts aren't enough to "protect us". Highlighting that insufficient response isn't reliant on bigotry or antagonism to religion. I'll let others defend their stance if that's where the criticism is derived as that isn't my position.

To be honest though, I'm not sure what Cox can do about drought and big game in an immediate sense (ie 2021). That's an issue largely an outcome of drought itself. Praying ain't my jam but it can't hurt. Nothing he can do to encourage citizens will have any meaningful on water and feed for ungulates this season unless he gets a bucket brigade to fill guzzlers. It will be interesting to see how it feeds human/wildlife conflict though as I know home owners in my area are seeing mule deer stay much longer in their yards this year. Evidently tender veggie starts and transplants are great forage 😬😁

I'll keep ideas about water conservation and security for humans in the other thread.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

backcountry said:


> To be fair, it is the only thing he offered in his own recognition that existing efforts aren't enough to "protect us". Highlighting that insufficient response isn't reliant on bigotry or antagonism to religion. I'll let others defend their stance if that's where the criticism is derived as that isn't my position.
> 
> To be honest though, I'm not sure what Cox can do about drought and big game in an immediate sense (ie 2021). That's an issue largely an outcome of drought itself. Praying ain't my jam but it can't hurt. Nothing he can do to encourage citizens will have any meaningful on water and feed for ungulates this season unless he gets a bucket brigade to fill guzzlers. It will be interesting to see how it feeds human/wildlife conflict though as I know home owners in my area are seeing mule deer stay much longer in their yards this year. Evidently tender veggie starts and transplants are great forage 😬😁
> 
> I'll keep ideas about water conservation and security for humans in the other thread.


I don't necessarily put a lot of blame on the Governor. I put a lot of the backward, do nothing attitude on the state legislature.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

And plenty of people have landed in a similar position on Cox's effort. I can understand that.

My stance in extraordinary times call for extraordinary action. The bully pulpit alone is an underappreciated tool that can be adapted to appealing to whatever a citizen's or legislator's particular political ideology may be. I would hope on the topic of wildlife that Cox is working with his team to encourage vigilance and creativity in dealing with this wretched drought because it's reach will go beyond the next year or two. If we want to be impacting decisions for 2022 onward the time is now (and yesterday and the years before).

I never understand why someone would want to hold public office with today's complex problems but I have no problem critiquing them once they volunteer to lead.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

And just what would any of you want the legislature to do about the drought? 

They could always bring in some Native American Shaman to do a rain dance. But beyond that all they can do is to enact restrictions and high water bills for those who don't want to play nice. But then there are the farmers and ranchers who have water shares that even the legislature can not work around. Most water law is federal and not state. 

But I do remember the drought that lasted through the 70's and into the 80's. Water people were saying that it would take 30 years or more to build the aquifer back to what it should be. Then the winter of 82-83 hit and the summer of 83 of water everywhere. 

The big problem is that when you live in the second driest state out of 50 that you need to make decisions that are going to go against the grain. Look at the golf courses and parks that are kept nice and green for the enjoyment of people. It has also been proven that if you dump enough water on a desert that you can grow almost anything. If you don't believe that take a ride down around Phoenix and take a look at those beautiful green fields and the orange groves. 

As for the deer and elk, way back when they would just move off of the mountain and down to the valleys for their water and food sources, but they can't do that anymore. And removing the cattle and sheep off of the forest service and BLM lands isn't going to change that. There just isn't any water left up in the hills besides the reservoirs that the water users have constructed.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> And just what would any of you want the legislature to do about the drought?
> 
> They could always bring in some Native American Shaman to do a rain dance. But beyond that all they can do is to enact restrictions and high water bills for those who don't want to play nice. But then there are the farmers and ranchers who have water shares that even the legislature can not work around. Most water law is federal and not state.
> 
> ...


Incentives for businesses, and homeowners to plant more water friendly/desert natural landscapes. Changes in the “use it or lose it” approach to water shares in the state. Require irrigation water to be metered across the state. Better support agricultural watering moving over to more efficient means of irrigating. Maybe if they stopped spending money on studies for idiocies like the lake Powell pipeline they’d have more money to incentivize better water practices. All the money in the world to build a ridiculous pipeline or reservoirs to dry up the great salt lake, but make water use more wise and efficient? They seem far less committed to. The states legislature, as with most things, is a joke. The list can keep going.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

backcountry said:


> And plenty of people have landed in a similar position on Cox's effort. I can understand that.
> 
> My stance in extraordinary times call for extraordinary action. The bully pulpit alone is an underappreciated tool that can be adapted to appealing to whatever a citizen's or legislator's particular political ideology may be. I would hope on the topic of wildlife that Cox is working with his team to encourage vigilance and creativity in dealing with this wretched drought because it's reach will go beyond the next year or two. If we want to be impacting decisions for 2022 onward the time is now (and yesterday and the years before).
> 
> I never understand why someone would want to hold public office with today's complex problems but I have no problem critiquing them once they volunteer to lead.


To be clear the Governor is not blameless. He does have influence, and supports too much of the nonsense the legislature continually provides to us. Cox has taken some positions on some things that are at odds with the legislature (a good thing) so I think he is playing a game of keeping them somewhat on his side. It’s a balancing act.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I-Eye, you need to do a lot of homework on Water Law on the streams and rivers here in the west. 

You can always ask yourself why is it that SLC gets water from rivers that don't even come close to running into the SL Valley, not to mention Utah County, Nevada, Arizona, and California.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Critter,

There are options to address the impacts even when we recognize there is only so much we can do about water input.

Start a major movement to secure more land and habitat in the winter to summer corridors (vice versa). Protecting the herd sizes that do survive drought (and/or combination with brutal winters) has increased importance as these droughts take hold. 

Redouble efforts to secure more rangeland before it's sub-developed. Subsidize drought resistant winter forage on those lands.

Etc. Etc.

We aren't helpless in mitigating all the deleterious impacts of this issue. And doing something now even if we get a big drench one season is still a net positive. And despite big years like 83/84 the trend is clear...... persistent, serious drought is with us.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> I-Eye, you need to do a lot of homework on Water Law on the streams and rivers here in the west.
> 
> You can always ask yourself why is it that SLC gets water from rivers that don't even come close to running into the SL Valley, not to mention Utah County, Nevada, Arizona, and California.


Yeah this is just excuse nonsense. Sure there are some instances, many in fact that are complicated. That doesn't mean they can't be improved or that there isn't a variety of localized water usage issues that policies can't be improved, incentivized, and changed. Something being complicated is not an excuse to not improve it, and yes some of those solutions include congress and a collaboration of several states. Some measures the state can take itself as well however. You seem to want to just ignore what I stated above. The state could implement and help fund many of those incentives and programs to save water.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Another day, another string of news stories about more municipalities warning about water shut offs if usage doesn’t go down, and another day of complaints that nobody is doing anything.

Some people just like to complain.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Some people like to misrepresent nuanced criticisms as petty complaining. Life goes on.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

To comments about state control. The legislature passed a bill in 2012 that changed the game in Cedar Valley. It can do the same across the state. It empowered local powers to take measures to conserve water in their respective systems, including revoking or expiring old water rights. Point being, water rights aren't set in stone and laws can be passed to adapt policy to our burgeoning drought. Interstate compacts are definitely a big deal but really not the bulk of the conservation dilemma.

A great resource on the issue down here has been the Spectrum's "Water Tap" series. It's pretty well done and trying to educate readers about the issue.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> It’s hilarious to hear people criticize Governor Cox on this. I really wish people would just have the stones to be open about why they really are bothered right now.


Respect and appreciate Governor Cox for having the clarity and strength to recognize and state man is not in complete control of our world. Utah and the western states have done an incredible job of developing our water resources, storage, and distribution systems. But we are reliant on God (or mother nature if you prefer) to provide storms to bring snow to provide runoff for storage and future use.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

OriginalOscar said:


> Respect and appreciate Governor Cox for having the clarity and strength to recognize and state man is not in complete control of our world. Utah and the western states have done an incredible job of developing our water resources, storage, and distribution systems. But we are reliant on God (or mother nature if you prefer) to provide storms to bring snow to provide runoff for storage and future use.


Science, and climate change are real issues that yes, we do in fact have an impact on. So no we can’t completely control the weather, but we need to find realistic paths to curve our contributions to climate change to the extent we can. And no, I don’t think this needs to be a politically divisive issue or that either political party approaches climate change completely honestly, but you’re seeing even many staunch conservatives beginning to acknowledge, that yes climate change is an issue and we are a contributing factor. The problem is many conservatives excuses are “oh people will adapt, we’ve always adapted”. Okay….even if true, if current trends continue the future is very bleak for a hell of a lot of places and species. So no we can’t control the weather, but we are a contributing problem to the issues underway.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Science, and climate change are real issues that yes, we do in fact have an impact on. So no we can’t completely control the weather, but we need to find realistic paths to curve our contributions to climate change to the extent we can. And no, I don’t think this needs to be a politically divisive issue or that either political party approaches climate change completely honestly, but you’re seeing even many staunch conservatives beginning to acknowledge, that yes climate change is an issue and we are a contributing factor. The problem is many conservatives excuses are “oh people will adapt, we’ve always adapted”. Okay….even if true, if current trends continue the future is very bleak for a hell of a lot of places and species. So no we can’t control the weather, but we are a contributing problem to the issues underway.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Critter said:


> And just what would any of you want the legislature to do about the drought?


S'cuse me while I raise my hand and jump up and down my chair like a first grader.

The first thing I would do, is shut off the spigot that is going out of state. I don't care about the colorado river compact, or whatever that multistate agreement was that was signed back in 1930 or whenever it was. SHUT IT OFF. NOW.

Then send a laconic letter to California:
Build Dams.

Second thing I would do, is put a roadblock on I-15.... right before Saint George, somewhere around milemarker 1. Followed by HWY 50, I-80, and HWY 30.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

backcountry said:


> Some people like to misrepresent nuanced criticisms as petty complaining. Life goes on.


Not everything is about you. Settle down a bit. And I really haven’t misrepresented anything. There is that going on, however. Since “solely” now means I can ignore months of previous statements and messaging and focus on one statement, apparently!


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Problem about water use and pollution is that even with substantial increases in efficiencies, the simple crush of numbers coming into this state is enough to blunt significant progress. How do you add a million residents to the 2nd driest state in the nation and not impact things...often in the negative. It doesn't matter that you add a 5 or 10% efficiency to anything when your state grows at 18% over a 10 year period from 2010 to 2020. We are fighting, in many ways a losing battle...not because we aren't making progress in technology, science, etc, but because that progress cannot keep up with sheer force of numbers.

Even with agriculture being the main consumer of water, any wiggle room is being used up to support more and more urban consumption by the masses. I'd love a roadblock in Wendover with a sign saying "Californians...go home".


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> Not everything is about you. Settle down a bit. And I really haven’t misrepresented anything. There is that going on, however. Since “solely” now means I can ignore months of previous statements and messaging and focus on one statement, apparently!


I responded to that. You can ignore the context of Cox's statement all you want but that's on you.

And when you make vague accusations that include anyone criticizing your preferred politician you can expect pushback from those people criticizing him on this issue.

I'm not falling for the traps in your posts anymore.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

MWScott72 said:


> Problem about water use and pollution is that even with substantial increases in efficiencies, the simple crush of numbers coming into this state is enough to blunt significant progress. How do you add a million residents to the 2nd driest state in the nation and not impact things...often in the negative. It doesn't matter that you add a 5 or 10% efficiency to anything when your state grows at 18% over a 10 year period from 2010 to 2020. We are fighting, in many ways a losing battle...not because we aren't making progress in technology, science, etc, but because that progress cannot keep up with sheer force of numbers.
> 
> Even with agriculture being the main consumer of water, any wiggle room is being used up to support more and more urban consumption by the masses. I'd love a roadblock in Wendover with a sign saying "Californians...go home".


Sadly efforts to address this very issue have failed across the Intermountain west. You can tie growth to water availability but it takes a willingness. 

The situation has been made worse by policies that have over allocated water for decades as is. Cedar did so and our aquifer is paying the price. There are obviously examples with bigger impacts and stakes.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

Lone_Hunter said:


> S'cuse me while I raise my hand and jump up and down my chair like a first grader.
> 
> The first thing I would do, is shut off the spigot that is going out of state. I don't care about the colorado river compact, or whatever that multistate agreement was that was signed back in 1930 or whenever it was. SHUT IT OFF. NOW.
> 
> ...


This sounds like a great solution. Count me in lol. It makes me sick to see how much water is wasted on lawns here in Washington county. Both golf courses and all the new homes being built by commifornians.

Everyone in the nation wants to complain about Utah's attempt at the lake powell pipeline. But you don't hear anyone complaining about the giant waste of water from the Colorado river caused by California growing aloe vera plants.

Many wars have been fought over water throughout history. I am sure there will be more.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Backcountry, there are no traps. You’re reading WAAAY more into this than exists. Not sure why you’ve done that, but it’s okay either way. Here is my point, with no veil: 1-eye is a religious bigot. He’s shown that clearly in the past. I’ve called him out before and will continue to do so.

That said, I do think you have missed a lot of the things you’ve asked for that they are doing. That was the purpose of a prior post where I gave concrete examples, but then you took it a different direction wanting to argue that solely means something it doesn’t mean or talk about “preferred candidates.” It’s not about politics. There have been tons of news stories and coverage on this. The Governor has been very clear in his messaging, and taken public action appropriate for his office under the law. Municipalities are speaking to their residents, multiple locations coming out with grave warnings that their water will be shut off or they will be fined if people don’t change their ways. The electronic signs over the freeway along the Wasatch front have had messaging about this. Water managers are stepping up. I don’t remember a more out in the open campaign on any topic outside of Covid.

Is there more that can be done? Absolutely. We can always do more. None of us will ever reach a point in this life where we’ve truly done EVERYTHING in our power to do. I just choose to celebrate the positives instead of throw stones from the cheap seats. And yes, hopefully people are doing more about this than complaining on the internet. That is for everyone on this forum, including you and me.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Not that tweets are the authoritative reference, but here is one from Cox discussing some of the action they are doing. 

As the fastest growing state in the nation, conservation MUST be a bigger emphasis for Utah. Unfortunately it got lost in other dumb debates, but the legislature just set aside $280M for water projects, including $100M for conservation! That is HUGE. https://google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/utah/2021/5/19/22444064/utah-lawmakers-decided-to-do-with-1-6-billion-federal-covid-19-relief-funds-budget-special-session… 4/
https://twitter.com/SpencerJCox/status/1401320858686156800/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1401320860284186624|twgr^|twcon^s2_&ref_url=https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/6/7/22522740/utah-gov-cox-called-on-utahns-to-pray-for-rain-some-criticized-him-heres-how-responded-lgbt-drought


There is apparently a press conference scheduled for today with more information and plans. I'm sure it won't be enough for those keen on continuing to bash the guv for calling for prayer, and looking to justify themselves, but I'm hopeful that it will have some innovative plans forward through the drought.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> It’s hilarious to hear people criticize Governor Cox on this. I really wish people would just have the stones to be open about why they really are bothered right now.
> 
> Some people don’t like that he called for prayer because that offends their sensitive anti-religious feelers.





Vanilla said:


> Another day, another string of news stories about more municipalities warning about water shut offs if usage doesn’t go down, and another day of complaints that nobody is doing anything.
> 
> Some people just like to complain.





Vanilla said:


> Not everything is about you. Settle down a bit.





> Backcountry, there are no traps. You’re reading WAAAY more into this than exists. Not sure why you’ve done that.


I can't speak to the intent of them but the series of posts above are a prime example of what gaslighting looks light. And it is a trap even, when done unintentionally, which sounds like the case here.

When you inappropriately and inaccurately included allegations of individuals like me having issues with prayer then make vague allegations about "people" criticizing the governor you can expect to be called out for the BS. And your response has been inherently political.

If you don't want the criticism then don't post BS assumptions about people's motives like you did here:



> If you just started with you not liking an elected official talking about prayer, we could have got to the point we are at now.


The allegations of bigotry against others are ironic when you reject the merits of an idea by assuming inaccurate motives of individuals and tearing down strawmen from those stereotypes.

The notion that we can't rightfully criticize Cox for admitting the solutions aren't enough "to protect us" from the real problem and his sole response to that admission is divine intervention means people are anti-religion or anti-prayer is flawed. It's lazy logic and sets a ridiculous standard for speaking against the government. It can, and does for me, come from a sincere and rational place that politicians that very publicly admit their solutions aren't enough better immediately follow up with how they are going to remedy that through actual governance.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Catherder,

Seems to me his social media reaction is a prime example to my claim that he missed an important opportunity to not just pray but challenge all of us to engage in shared sacrifice through redoubling efforts to conserve. 

I don't support vitriol against him, and Twitter is full of it endemically, but I refuse to conflate social media hate and just criticism. Politicians are expected to learn from failures in their messaging not get defensive. That was mistake number two on his part. I voted for him (and likely will again knowing likely competition) but I am disappointed nonetheless.

I hope he steps back and learns a new strategy. I still have hope he can regroup and do better. But I very much believe it's our jobs as citizens to articulate our criticisms when our leaders fail.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Where was all this criticism before the call to prayer was made last weekend? Because all the FACTS remain the same. And yes, you've missed the boat here. I feel I called out BS here too, so you and me are one in the same on this one. 

My statements are not political at all. Not even in the least. I defended an elected official, just like I'd do anyone else that was getting criticism that is not merited in the record that someone claimed didn't exist. I've shown examples of that record, but you keep wanting to focus on minutia, not admitting your own errors. You've just doubled down. Oh well, let it get you worked up. Let it make you upset. I can't control any of that. But you are not correct here. With that, I'll go do what the governor has been asking us to do for well over a month and see where my family can reduce our water usage. And we'll continue to pray for relief and help too.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I admitted from your original interpretation of my post that my word choice wasn't correct. Your summary once again is incorrect. However, you failed to take into the account of Cox's declaration and video that I linked. That error is on you. One you haven't admitted. Your replies and posts often fail to recognize context, so I'm not shocked. But you can't didn't admit error yourself in that regard. My criticism and use of "solely" is justified by Cox's own words, public statement, video and literal declaration. You can't seem to admit that.

Unfortunately you accuse people of a form of dissembling and ulterior motives which completely derails the issue. You've done it twice now. Your posts escalate the rhetoric of the conversation (public vs politician to public vs public), misrepresent ideas and then have the audacity to be shocked people respond. Hence the summary of your posts as an example of gas lighting. It's a flawed strategy that relies on a blatant form of intellectual gerrymandering.

You can actually fairly represent people's ideas, or not, that's on you. I would hope you'd have the courage not to continuously and inaccurately stereotype concepts different than yours but your posts give me reason not to put much stock in that possibility. Funny thing is your stance and support for Cox isn't reliant on me agreeing. They can both exist and diverge despite the agreed upon and established facts. I accept that. I have vocally supported your personal preferences. But you lack the willingness to do the same, on an issue that inherently rests on differing personal values and political expectations.

One of us has admitted error during this exchange. Another hasn't. One of us has assumed ulterior motivations by those who differ in opinion. The other hasn't. I sit confidently knowing which person I am in those categories and sincerely hope you are willing to reconsider your approach. Because the reflexive attack of those who criticized Cox this past week isn't reflecting well on what I've seen of your actual preferences and values in the past. And rationally criticizing a politician is an age old American tradition (basically an establishment) while what I've seen in your replies here is an entirely different beast.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Is this where I say “I know you are, but what am I?”

Your responses here have been far beyond ridiculous. I get why, but my statements all remain. Some of your criticisms have been shown to objectively been incorrect. But I’m gas lighting, being political, and making assumptions about motives. Ad hominem, much?

Peace!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

To anyone actually playing along still...

The difference in opinion rests on Cox's video transcript. I take Cox's honest statement to heart, and believe it's a concern supported by fact that " I fear those efforts [one's Vanilla and I both admit are on the public record] alone won’t be enough to protect us.". I expect such an admission to come with governance and creative problem solving, not solely asking for divine intervention. I think that's a very fair standard to hold a public official to.

I actually think Cox was brave in saying the quiet part out loud. Drought declarations and the same public requests seen every year (yes, every one of the items he listed as being asked is conservation 101) don't cut it this year. He publicly admitted as much. Cox literally said what he has called for (past tense) "won't be enough to protect us". His words.

He can either now own that public admission and rise to the occasion or not. But there are no do overs once he made that public statement. He chose to admit the insufficiency of the actions in dealing with the drought and now he gets to live the repercussions.









Gov. Cox invites Utahns to pray for rain June 4-6


SALT LAKE CITY (June 3, 2021) – Gov. Spencer J. Cox is inviting all Utahns to join him in praying for rain to relieve our state from the current drought. “I’ve already asked all Utahns to conserve water by avoiding long showers, fixing leaky faucets, and planting water-wise landscapes. But I...



governor.utah.gov


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> Is this where I say “I know you are, but what am I?”
> 
> Your responses here have been far beyond ridiculous. I get why, but my statements all remain. Some of your criticisms have been shown to objectively been incorrect. But I’m gas lighting, being political, and making assumptions about motives. Ad hominem, much?
> 
> Peace!


Pointing out the content of your posts isn't ad hominem. That's the only absurdity. You voluntarily chose to write that you assumed people's motivations. Not me. You made it part of your principal argument. Not me. Continued obfuscation of that fact is a choice you get to make.

And yes.... antagonizing vague groups of "people" who criticize Cox, accusing them of dissembling and then telling them to "calm down" is gaslighting. If you don't do it on purpose then it might be worth revising your strategy as it's impact is undoubtedly deleterious. I get the sense that's not your goal so I hope you sincerely "take it under advisement".


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

This forum used to be fun, now with all the big words I have to google instead of enjoying conversations. 

To much effort 😂


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Touché


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

My point is, it shouldn’t be, but like most things, it is. One political thought process is “ignore it” or “it’s a hoax”. The other political parties approach is “do everything no matter how damaging it is to people”. Neither are a good approach but the overwhelming audience here is conservative so it needs to be discussed.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Lets get it back on subject instead of he said she said along with the politics. 

Just as a FYI here in Colorado we have a totally liberal administration and we are going through the same thing.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

Enough about Cox, lets work on blaming the Californians and Vegas poop dicks!!!!!!!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Critter said:


> Lets get it back on subject instead of he said she said along with the politics.
> 
> Just as a FYI here in Colorado we have a totally liberal administration and we are going through the same thing.


Much of the West is dealing with severe (or categorically worse) drought. Here is the latest map:










And no political ideology owns the best or scaled response. The Front Range of Colorado has a strong history based in unsustainable boosterism going back to Horace Greeley. The front range's water security is as precarious given they are way ahead on the population curve.

Like I have said already, solutions exist that respect just about every political ideology. It just takes wherewithal to push an agenda and innovations to the scale needed at the time.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Critter said:


> Lets get it back on subject instead of he said she said along with the politics.
> 
> Just as a FYI here in Colorado we have a totally liberal administration and we are going through the same thing.


Yeah let's trash CO and your decision to transplant Wolves. Best solution to fix CO let west slope become part of Utah. You got water over there we could take?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I wouldn't mind adding the White and upper Yampa to the collection. Or the Dolores and Animas.

I say let's do it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

As I’ve tried to say, it’s not about politics. Just because someone tries to say it is to keep faux fights going does not make it so.

Utah (not just Cox) has done an awful lot here, including the info that Catherder quoted above. There were allegations that nothing has been done, that there has been no messaging, that one official was relying “solely” on prayer, which simply isn’t true. Objectively, factually...that is not true. I’ve tried to show that with objective information that is documented and that existed before those allegations were made, but it’s clear all that is going to be ignored for some manufactured fight and controversy, so...whatever.

I tip my hat to Utah for all the efforts to curb this on the government level. Both at the municipal level and state level their is messaging, actions, and efforts I’ve not seen in my adult life, despite the things that are completely out of any person’s control. Whine if you want. Complain about the Governor asking people to pray. Say the state is doing nothing. None of that changes facts. We are free to form our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts. I applaud the efforts and welcome those that undoubtedly are coming in the future. I’ll leave the stones from the cheap seats to others.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

OriginalOscar said:


> Yeah let's trash CO and your decision to transplant Wolves. Best solution to fix CO let west slope become part of Utah. You got water over there we could take?


I've flushed my toilette around 5 times today, does that count? 

We have the same problem that Utah is going to have. A lot of liberal minded people coming here to work in the tech industry who think wolves are cute dogs. They are the same ones that banned trapping and the spring bear hunts. 

Colorado's problem with water is that they always depended on runoff for their water and they always had plenty, that is until there is no runoff. They should of built a lot more reservoirs back in the time that it was easy to get permission to do so but they fiddled the water away. There was a state senator who proposed that Colorado build a reservoir on the Utah border and then pipe all of "Colorado's" water back over to Denver.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> As I’ve tried to say, it’s not about politics. Just because someone tries to say it is to keep faux fights going does not make it so.
> 
> Utah (not just Cox) has done an awful lot here, including the info that Catherder quoted above. There were allegations that nothing has been done, that there has been no messaging, that one official was relying “solely” on prayer, which simply isn’t true. Objectively, factually...that is not true. I’ve tried to show that with objective information that is documented and that existed before those allegations were made, but it’s clear all that is going to be ignored for some manufactured fight and controversy, so...whatever.
> 
> I tip my hat to Utah for all the efforts to curb this on the government level. Both at the municipal level and state level their is messaging, actions, and efforts I’ve not seen in my adult life, despite the things that are completely out of any person’s control. _*Whine if you want. Complain about the Governor asking people to pray. Say the state is doing nothing.*_ None of that changes facts. We are free to form our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts. I applaud the efforts and welcome those that undoubtedly are coming in the future. I’ll leave the stones from the cheap seats to others.


Yet another fundamentally inaccurate portrayal of differing opinions. It's completely unnecessary and regrettable.

This couldn't be more ironic given your contributions on these threads:



> We are free to form our own opinions, but we are not entitled to our own facts


It's truly unfortunate your posts lack even a remote semblance of good faith representation of the dialoug. It seems like you have chosen your strategy and sticking with it. So be it, I won't hold my breathe on that subject any longer.

But even with that lack of grace and charity in your portrayal of other's stances I won't recuperate. I imagine you sincerely and honestly hold your values and judgements of the current government policy. I've seen it from you and respect it. We can diverge on that assessment without resorting to the fundamentally erroneous and bigoted assessments you've lobbed against me.

I imagine you expect better of your contributions here just as I do. Here's to hoping you prove me wrong about my trepidation in that happening in the future

*Quotes attached for future reference


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> I've flushed my toilette around 5 times today, does that count?


Immodium can help you with that. 

Back on topic;









Gov. Cox paints dire portrait of Utah drought conditions, issues new declaration


Gov. Spencer Cox on Tuesday issued his third drought declaration of the year in light of "exceptional" drought conditions statewide. Drought conditions are at their worst on record in the state, said Candice Hasenyager, deputy director of the Division of Water Resources. Reservoirs are 15%...




kutv.com





Is this better?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Catherder said:


> Immodium can help you with that.
> 
> Back on topic;
> 
> ...


In its gestalt, yes. This is what he should have done last week. As I said then, the call to prayer should have been directly accompanied by explicit ways to unite around shared sacrifice. This one is much better and I dare say he heard the message.

Is it to scale? No, but it's a start. The scale part is a criticism of the fact that for years we've been asked to do most of those things for conservation. The state watering guidelines for lawns are limited to 2-3 waterings a week most of the summer. That's not a new response tailored to the severity of the situation so much as a default request.

Not watering between those hours? Standard recommendations across the west. Our county/municipality has stricter requirements but has never enforced them. That's a huge failure as enforcing them now is playing catch up. Better than nothing but a nonetheless an abject failure.

Same reality about the wind and smart controllers. Smart controllers already have that built in. A fact I know given the schedule alteration notifications I get almost every week in Cedar.

I will say bluntly talking about letting your grass yellow is a noticeable step in the right direction. He needs to be pushing that message aggressively. People need to know it could very well come down to lawns versus necessities.

How many of y'all have ever experienced government's having to alter rates severely as the last measure? My parents experienced it years ago. The rates were so punitive they installed grey water catchment for everything but showers and drinking water. Our washer? Run on grey water. Wasn't pretty but they literally couldn't afford to do otherwise.

I bring that up as we could be heading there real fast in Utah. And prepping people now to shutoff their turf irrigation is going to be the first real cultural battle. And I for one would prefer to avoid punitive water pricing after years of personally doing exactly what the governor is calling for now.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

My solution to tiered water rates would be based off of how long you have been a resident of Utah and been in ‘the system’.
Been a resident for >30 years? =‘X’ cost per thousand.
Been a resident for 20-29 years? =‘X’ cost plus small multiplier.
Been a resident for 10-19 years?=‘X’ plus medium multiplier.
Been a resident for 1-9 years?=‘X’ plus larger multiplier.
Been a resident for.....well, hopefully you get the idea.
This tiered rate system rewards those that have contributed to Utah’s infrastructure installation/maintenance over the years.
If you haven’t ‘bought in’ for a few decades, you should naturally pay more for the new burden you are placing on the system.
This tiered system is not to be confused with the one time building permit fees.
Plus, I believe strongly in prayer.
I should be the ‘Guvnor’!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Except the tiered prices aren't about infrastructure. Tiering water prices is inherently about penalizing excessive use beyond essentials. It's about conserving what we have, which time lived in Utah has no bearing or impact on.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Random thoughts:

- I'll bet more people are growing gardens this year. I know we are. Inflation (possibly hyperinflation) is coming, and shortages are already here.

- Personally, I've already dialed my lawn back awhile ago to the bare minumum to keep it green. Mostly because I hate having to mow it often. I'm anal retentive on details, and will sit there and fiddle with the sprinkler timer until I get it _just_ right. Think i'll try and shave a couple more minutes off and see what happens.

- Probably time to get off my ass and fill up those water storage containers I bought weeks ago, before water, like gas, gets too expensive.

- I picked a helluva year to have three tags in my pocket. 1 OTC, and 2 successful draws. (I;m pretty sure about that based on last years draw odds) I hope and pray I fill at least one of them. Id turn them in, but I think the potential meat in the freezer will be too much of a bennifit to pass up later in the year/into next year.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

BC,
My idea is ALL about conserving water.
Do you disagree?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I disagree for multiple reasons. To highlight a few:

1)Your justification is solely about payment into an infrastructure system. And it wouldn't require those born here to pay an equal share into said infrastructure as immigrants (ie here 20-30 years before paying into system). But ultimately even your description is ALL about the cost of infrastructure, not conservation.

2) It doesn't account for the fact that many of those systems were over allocated since the middle of the 20th century

3) It doesn't account for the fact that it wouldn't affect new development (ie growth) owned by long term residents. This would allow for expansive growth (ie water use) . And ironically new residents renting those units wouldn't increase the funds (via tiered rates) you prioritize for infrastructure.

4) Long term residents wouldn't have any financial penalty for using excessive water. And neither would new immigrants as price for essential use would be same as extraneous gallons used.

And that doesn't deal with the ethical dilemmas of such a heirarchial system. We don't see that approach with any other tax on consumable public goods. It wouldn't qualify as discrimination under law (from what I can tell) but it's ethically problematic.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

MrShane said:


> BC,
> My idea is ALL about conserving water.
> Do you disagree?


What IF... say, one has lived here for the last decade, but their wife was born and raised here? What category would that place a fella? Don't get me wrong, I like your idea for several reasons, not that it will ever happen; but like my idea of shutting off the out of state spigot, its fun to think about , even cooler if it ever happened, but simply won't.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

BC, I knew you would.

Lone, Let’s put your wife’s name on the water bill AND shut off the spigot!!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Thoughts on criticisms? 

I am very curious on how we would ultimately justify changing the equality we currently have under residency. Once we become residents of the state I'm not aware of any other system that intentionally creates fundamental inequalities based upon time served. We don't do it for property tax even when you've paid for things for decades. We don't do it for publicly regulated infrastructure like power, sewage or trash. It would be a radical change in how we treat citizens of the state and one, as I highlighted, that isn't directly tied to excess water usage by individuals. 

If it passed, I would do financially pretty well under such a system and have no financial incentive to alter my behavior.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

No thoughts.
We are in wild times so I quickly threw out a wild idea.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

backcountry said:


> Except the tiered prices aren't about infrastructure. Tiering water prices is inherently about penalizing excessive use beyond essentials. It's about conserving what we have, which time lived in Utah has no bearing or impact on.


If you’re a Democrat these days, infrastructure is whatever they define it as…actual definition be da*ned! Just sayin’…


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Off topic, but an accurate description and a criticism I share.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

MrShane said:


> BC, I knew you would.
> 
> Lone, Let’s put your wife’s name on the water bill AND shut off the spigot!!


Sounds good to me, I could live with that.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2010)

Apparently in Cox's news conference yesterday he mentioned that "3 reservoirs were going to run dry." I can't find if he detailed which reservoirs he was referring to.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I can't find video of the full press conference but I know reservoirs along the Sevier are considered to be at risk.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

What really is rough is to own water and not be delivered that water which in turn starves the livestock dependent on the grass grown by the owned water. But the golf course stays green and peoples' lawns are bright and growing.....


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2010)

Backcountry- thanks, I thought it may have been Yuba, Piute and Otter that had recently been mentioned, but maybe there was some new info.

Packout- are you implying that there are responsible individuals that that may irrigate their own land and raise livestock on that land? Strange concept, I thought they all just suckled the USFS and BLM teat.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

That was randomly harsh.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

backcountry said:


> Off topic, but an accurate description and a criticism I share.


Ah, come on... You said "infrastructure" in your post. And to be fair, this thread has rambled in, out, and around the original topic.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Daisy said:


> Apparently in Cox's news conference yesterday he mentioned that "3 reservoirs were going to run dry." I can't find if he detailed which reservoirs he was referring to.


I believe Koosharem and Otter Creek were two of them. Don’t know what the third is. Both around my area. 10 day forecast. No rain. Lots of 99,100 degrees. But really. Anything but an “over average” winter will prove kinda even more disastrous a year from now too. This year we’re draining surpluses from an abnormally wet spring 2 years ago. Since that spring, it has been bone dry ever since. The reserves are being spent right now, and as bad as today looks, 365 days from today we better have had a hell of a winter……unfortunately we are at a perfect storm of extreme drought that a major winter will devastate wildlife, but it’s time for a hell of a winter, or large rainstorms every week, which obviously aren’t coming.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Actually I’m fairly certain Yuba is the 3rd Cox was speaking of. So yes backcountry is correct the Sevier River drainage is in quite a lot of trouble at the moment.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2010)

backcountry said:


> That was randomly harsh.


Maybe. I guess I should have put one these winky emoji things on my comment. 😉


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

haha I got your sarcasm Daisy. 
Well- we aren't responsible according the neighbor who complains we are wasting water. I wonder how he'd feel if he saw the water produced by a full stream..... (he is new so we will forgive or just ignore his opinion.) But I do see his lawn is fluorescent green from running his sprinklers all night. Maybe I should ask if he will let my cows graze on his lawn.

Seems to be the opinions of many is that cows are bad on public lands and water is bad on private ag lands. But BBQs and lawns in back yards are ok for both. I hear both sides ad nauseum. 

Oh and the elk will be suffering with the current conditions.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Pack out,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I truly can't imagine what that must be like for small family ranches and agribusiness. I know a few and things are already tenuous enough for y'all.

I hope water agencies and managers are dealing with this head on. The design of our systems has been untenable for decades and was setting us all up for disappointment and serious tensions at best. 

I won't guess how we solve that 100+ year problem in the making but I sincerely hope our leaders are leaning into it and not mailing it in.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

MWScott72 said:


> Ah, come on... You said "infrastructure" in your post. And to be fair, this thread has rambled in, out, and around the original topic.


Fair enough. It's definitely rambled.

Since we are talking about low hanging fruit, at least the silliness of the original "infrastructure" bill was in Earth's orbit compared to Gohmert's recent question about the BLM's ability/desire to alter the moon's orbit to minimize the impact of global warming. There aren't enough emojis for that level of insanity. There definitely are stupid questions it turns out.

Our politics seems to reside in bizzaro world.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

backcountry said:


> at least the silliness of the original "infrastructure" bill was in Earth's orbit compared to Gohmert's recent question about the BLM's ability/desire to alter the moon's orbit to minimize the impact of global warming. There aren't enough emojis for that level of insanity. There definitely are stupid questions it turns out.
> 
> Our politics seems to reside in bizzaro world.


I think that guy has seen too many Superman movies. I couldn't stop laughing when I saw the clip of him asking that. 

.Not completely unexpected though. Gohmert is a leading candidate to be chair of the congressional whack-a-doodle caucus.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I hear the race to chair the whack-a-doodle caucus is tight though given the competition we are seeing on both sides. I can't wait to see how that plays out now that membership in the screen actors guild seems to infer political credentials for office. If only we could sequester all the candidates for that position the same way we hope to carbon one day. Save them to run for office when the drought gets so bad that we start chanting "Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes."

Its a good reminder to grade our politicians on a curve. I'll criticize average politicians but appreciate that they are at least in a different league than those that put the word science in air quotes, blame wildfires on Jewish space lasers or believe the BLM is interested in altering other celestial bodies. It's why I laugh everytime younger generations are blamed for everything falling apart. 

Is this where I say "how about this weather"? That may be too controversial as well, so "how about them Raiders this season"? 😁


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Daisy said:


> Maybe. I guess I should have put one these winky emoji things on my comment. 😉


Fair enough, sorry for misreading the tone. The satire was spot on as that post was almost word for word out a few of my friend's mouths. I'm not welcome to dinner there much anymore 😁.

You could always finish the look with a meme comparing gun law to bans on lawn darts. That seems to be popular on the book of faces right now.

I'm getting old enough now I should buy a chair and sit on my front porch and talk to random kids in the neighborhood about how I think social media will bring down western society. My poor baby girl is going to "love" having an older dad. [Insert winky emoji thingy]


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