# CWMU Program



## cc6565 (Feb 6, 2012)

If you hunt CWMUs lets give feedback so the CWMU board can make sure public hunters are treated right. In 2016 my wife and nephew drew CWMU cow elk tags at the same place (Wallsburg CWMU) and our experience was horrible and it was so bad it has made my wife no longer want to hunt and calls the CWMU a corrupted money game, which as someone who has hunted his whole life and finally got her to hunt 4 yrs ago its really hard to see this happen. Well my Wife reached out to the DWR and submitted her complaint and my brother did the same on behalf of his Son and let me tell you the CWMU board does not mess around with the public hunters being treated this way and took it very serous. They ended up holding a disciplinary committee for this and other complaints that were brought to their attention and let me tell you they hold the operators to a strong set of rules and focus on making sure public hunters are being treated the way the program was designed for. There were multiple CWMUs that were put on probation and will be reviewed again this time next yr to make sure they made the changes they were told they had to make in order to stay in the CWMU program.

Now I am not saying to just complain to complain but lets make sure everyone is being treated equal. CWMUs must treat public hunters the same as if they were a private tag holder.

Through this process my Wife and I have been pleased with the way the DWR has handled it and I am hopeful that one day I will be able to get my wife back hunting again.

What my wife sent to DWR

I recently had my first experience with a CWMU elk tag at Wallsburg over Halloween this year, 2016. My family has been hunting this property with CWMU tags for years and when we don't have tags we hunt the public land just off the property so we know the area. My husband put me in for this elk tag because he said I'm pretty much guaranteed to get one. My husband and his brothers have all hunted this property multiple times and have always been successful so I was super excited. My nephew also had a Wallsburg CWMU elk tag.

When we first got there the main gate was locked and the operator told us that the road had been washed out so they purposely fell trees across the road. Well we walked this road and it was not washed out and was literally the best road on the property. Us having to use the other entrance exclusively added an extra thirty minutes onto our drive time on the 4 wheeler going over extremely rough roads.


No one met us at the gate. No one told us where the elk were and where we should go to have the best success. No one coordinated with us and told us where other hunters were hunting. 


 Every time we passed the guides camp the guide would come talk to us and was super rude. He would hold us there for at least 20 minutes every time, wasting our morning or evening hunting time. All he did was question us and complain that we were there. He was really upset when he found out certain ponds or areas that we were going to hunt and grilled us on how we knew about these places. We told him that some of us have been hunting here for years so we knew it well. He did not seem to like that. 


 He told us multiple times how much he hates public hunters but doesn't have a choice and has to let us on the property. We told the guide that we have tried to contact Shane Ford our operator multiple times over the previous months and weeks and have left multiple emails and messages regarding this hunt and he has never once contacted us. The guide told us that this is what Shane always does. He sends out the letters then washes his hands of the public hunters and never contacts them or responds. I honestly couldn't believe the things the guide was telling us. 


The guide had other hunters staying in his main camp with him and one of them was a deer hunter that was hunting the property at the same time we were hunting. We were told that only cow elk hunters would be on the property. We don't know if he had a private or public tag but the guide told us that other deer hunters will be here the following week to fill their tags. 


I felt like we were not supposed to be on the property with how we were being treated and with how the guide was talking to us. We hunted the best we could, hiked and drove a lot and sat for hours. We did not see one elk on the property. My brother in law talked to one of the sheep herders and he said he has not seen any elk on the property and told us he last saw them just off the property. Sure enough we were able to find them off the property but it was not an area we could get to even if we wanted to. Their were insane amount of sheep scattered over the whole property. Everywhere we went there was another heard of a few dozen sheep. At this point I felt like this hunt was being sabotaged on purpose. 


When my family had hunted this property before they have always had struggles with sheep and the operators but never to this extent. They have always been able to be successful despite the operators lack of help and the amount of sheep on the property. I feel like my time and hunting points were wasted. I'm a mom of 2 and it is hard to get overnight babysitters for multiple nights and drive 2 hours away, spend all this money on the tag that I'm not getting back, gas, and food, just to feel like I was set up to fail from the beginning. 


I was beyond disappointed with how the operator and guide treated us. And truly feel like we were never given a fair chance. I was so excited to go on this hunt. This definitely makes me re think putting in for a CWMU tag if this is how the program is run. They made it near impossible for us to have a successful hunt and for someone like me who has never gotten an elk before, this was very frustrating. With how hard we hunted we should have at least been able to find elk on the property and had chance to shoot one.


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## NVDuckin (Apr 18, 2016)

That's good to hear. Out of curiosity, did the DWR provide any remedy to your wife and nephew? Or did they have to apply again with 0 points for the upcoming season?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I would be interested to know more information on this. 

What CWMU was this? Not much of a service to hunters if you withhold the name and others go get a bad experience as well. 

What made the experience so bad that they never want to hunt again? That seems pretty bad!


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## Oblivion5888 (Sep 12, 2011)

My father and I both drew our first ever cwmu cow tags this year. We bith had a horrible experience as well, and wont be putting in for that unit again, let alone a cwmu. May i ask what the process was for you guys with the complaint? We have tried talking to the DNR about this without much luck.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Oblivion5888 said:


> My father and I both drew our first ever cwmu cow tags this year. We bith had a horrible experience as well, and wont be putting in for that unit again, let alone a cwmu. May i ask what the process was for you guys with the complaint? We have tried talking to the DNR about this without much luck.


A good start is to post on public forums like here what cwmu it is. I never got the keep the bad cwmu name secret. Maybe if you post up the name the next guy will read it and file a complaint himself


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

> If you hunt CWMUs lets give feedback so the CWMU board can make sure public hunters are treated right.


This statement just doesn't really fit with 


> (I'll leave the name out of this) and our experience was horrible and it was so bad it has made my wife no longer want to hunt and calls the CWMU a corrupted money game


If you had a bad experience that you are prepared to back up your claims if called out on it, why wouldn't you name that unit publicly? I get providing positive feedback only to the DWR so as to not hotspot "your" place...but negative info? Holding that to yourself during a call to provide feedback on the program seems very odd.

Hopefully, your wife will give it another go and the DWR and CWMU board did right by you.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Out em. The entire premise of the CWMU program is good experience for public hunters which equates to tags the CWMU controls. Wildlife belongs to the state and the DWR does have authority over CWMU's. 

If you out em; please be specific on what the bad experience was? Lack of access, lack of dates to hunt, etc.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Where does it say that public hunters must be treated the same as private tag holders? I was always under the impression that public tag holders got the dates offered by the operator and that they were only entitled to 5 days. Operators also have the option to not provide guide service, not allow camping, not allow vehicle use, not allow guests, not allow scouting, and not allow hunting on Sunday for public hunters while offering all these amenities to those who pay.

I'm not trying to make light of your bad experience, but wanted to make sure that it is clear that CWMU operators are absolutely not beholden to offer the same services to public hunters that they sell to private hunters. CWMU operators are only required to provide the services expressly listed in the rules. 

I think that the best path forward would be for you to thoroughly explain your situation along with the name of the CWMU. Give folks a chance to ask questions and give the other party a chance at rebuttal if they wish.--------SS


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Yep...I can't see how this is as "constructive" as it should be without knowing what CWMU is the supposed offender. In a similar vein, I hate anonymous sources. If the info is that important, back it up...don't hide in the shadows.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I agree, give the name to bring awareness to those that may need it. It's not much different than jumping on the Les Schwab, Walmart, McDonald's, etc website and giving harsh feedback for poor service. The CWMU needs the feedback to help them improve thier program. It's likely that the CWMU hasn't failed every public hunter as they have you and your wife. A lot can be figured out for everyone involved by letting us know what CWMU it was. If they are professional they won't lynch you for it. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I would like more information about a CWMU, the property for which used to be huntable to me (prior to it changing ownership). We shot many very nice bucks there as we owned the neighboring property.

I've been thinking about saving up 3-4 points just to be able to hunt it again, for old times sake but I'm not sure how well it is being run these days.

Good idea for a thread.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/about-the-cwmu-program.html



> How landowners can get involved
> Landowners that have an interest in this program must have a minimum of 5,000 contiguous acres to manage a deer, pronghorn or turkey and a minimum of 10,000 contiguous acres for elk or moose.
> 
> Numerous landowners may join together to form a single CWMU which must consist of private lands.
> ...


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

The credo might say that but the rules don't. Open the 'participating CWMU' tab and you will find all the limitations that I listed above that pertain to public hunters. Not saying it's right, just saying it's the way it is.-----SS


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Let's hear about your experience and on what CWMU. Also, many CWMU's "bargain" with the DNR to give a large majority, if not all, of the antlerless tags to the public in the drawing in exchange for a better antlered animal tag split. So "having a hunting opportunity that is comparable to the private hunters," would be unrealistic if the cwmu kept no cow elk tags for themselves. I am not saying this is the case, but having the expectation of having a similar cow elk hunt compared to a private bull elk hunt would be unrealistic.


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

Bummer you had a bad experience and yes the dwr takes cwmu complaints seriously. 
While the letter of the law may not say it most of the cwmu board members aim for the public to be treated equal to if not better than the pay hunters. 
My wide drew a cwmu buck tag a couple years ago and she/we had a wonderful experience. 
I have friends who have had poor experiences in the past and nor saying this is the opening poster case but none of them made contact with the operator before hand. 
If you are going to invest points, time and money into it spent 15 minutes on the phone beforehand. That will eliminate all bad surprises from good cwmu properties.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

In reading through this, I suppose that before I would grab the torch and pitchfork, I would like to hear more about *what* happened to cause such dissatisfaction.

There certainly have been issues with some CWMU's (and some are terrific), but this could also just be a misunderstanding of expectations?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

"Comparable" is certainly a term that is open for some interpretation. But I don't think under any definition it would mean "equal."


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## Winglish (Mar 28, 2015)

I have been lucky, I guess. I have drawn a CWMU elk tag and my wife drew a CWMU deer tag. We both had wonderful experiences! ?

I agree with everyone who is saying to publicly out the bad CWMU operations. There is no sense in putting others through your misery.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

My understanding of the comparable is that public and private hunters are allowed the same access to the property. For example it is OK for a CWMU to say "the back 40 is closed to hunting" as long as it is closed to both the public and the private hunters alike.


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## cc6565 (Feb 6, 2012)

They have to apply again but they did tell the CWMU that they would recommend they give us tags for 2017 but they cant make them do it.


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## cc6565 (Feb 6, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> I would be interested to know more information on this.
> 
> What CWMU was this? Not much of a service to hunters if you withhold the name and others go get a bad experience as well.
> 
> What made the experience so bad that they never want to hunt again? That seems pretty bad!


The unit was Wallsburg and there was a lot of things that happened but the main things were they never responded to our voicemail's or emails and the only communication was a letter which the CWMU board said that is against the rules they have to call everyone that draws the tag. When we showed up to hunt they had cut down trees across most all the roads and it was hard to get around them. There was only guide in their camp and he was rude and told us that they hate public hunters and dont want them on the property. They also scheduled the hunt when they moved all their sheep on the property which was so many sheep that there was nowhere on the property that there wasn't sheep and when we saw the sheep herder he said the only Elk hes seen are off of the property.


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## cc6565 (Feb 6, 2012)

Oblivion5888 said:


> My father and I both drew our first ever cwmu cow tags this year. We bith had a horrible experience as well, and wont be putting in for that unit again, let alone a cwmu. May i ask what the process was for you guys with the complaint? We have tried talking to the DNR about this without much luck.


I sent you a PM


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## cc6565 (Feb 6, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> This statement just doesn't really fit with
> 
> If you had a bad experience that you are prepared to back up your claims if called out on it, why wouldn't you name that unit publicly? I get providing positive feedback only to the DWR so as to not hotspot "your" place...but negative info? Holding that to yourself during a call to provide feedback on the program seems very odd.
> 
> Hopefully, your wife will give it another go and the DWR and CWMU board did right by you.


It was Wallsburg CWMU


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## cc6565 (Feb 6, 2012)

Springville Shooter said:


> Where does it say that public hunters must be treated the same as private tag holders? I was always under the impression that public tag holders got the dates offered by the operator and that they were only entitled to 5 days. Operators also have the option to not provide guide service, not allow camping, not allow vehicle use, not allow guests, not allow scouting, and not allow hunting on Sunday for public hunters while offering all these amenities to those who pay.
> 
> I'm not trying to make light of your bad experience, but wanted to make sure that it is clear that CWMU operators are absolutely not beholden to offer the same services to public hunters that they sell to private hunters. CWMU operators are only required to provide the services expressly listed in the rules.
> 
> I think that the best path forward would be for you to thoroughly explain your situation along with the name of the CWMU. Give folks a chance to ask questions and give the other party a chance at rebuttal if they wish.--------SS


So the CWMU board said they have to work with you so that the dates work for you ask any questions you want and Ill answer them.


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## cc6565 (Feb 6, 2012)

Everyone sorry I didnt provide more info at first but here is the email my wife sent the DWR

I recently had my first experience with a CWMU elk tag at Wallsburg over Halloween this year, 2016. My family has been hunting this property with CWMU tags for years and when we don't have tags we hunt the public land just off the property so we know the area. My husband put me in for this elk tag because he said I'm pretty much guaranteed to get one. My husband and his brothers have all hunted this property multiple times and have always been successful so I was super excited. My nephew also had a Wallsburg CWMU elk tag.





 When we first got there the main gate was locked and the operator told us that the road had been washed out so they purposely fell trees across the road. Well we walked this road and it was not washed out and was literally the best road on the property. Us having to use the other entrance exclusively added an extra thirty minutes onto our drive time on the 4 wheeler going over extremely rough roads.


No one met us at the gate. No one told us where the elk were and where we should go to have the best success. No one coordinated with us and told us where other hunters were hunting. 


 Every time we passed the guides camp the guide would come talk to us and was super rude. He would hold us there for at least 20 minutes every time, wasting our morning or evening hunting time. All he did was question us and complain that we were there. He was really upset when he found out certain ponds or areas that we were going to hunt and grilled us on how we knew about these places. We told him that some of us have been hunting here for years so we knew it well. He did not seem to like that. 


 He told us multiple times how much he hates public hunters but doesn't have a choice and has to let us on the property. We told the guide that we have tried to contact Shane Ford our operator multiple times over the previous months and weeks and have left multiple emails and messages regarding this hunt and he has never once contacted us. The guide told us that this is what Shane always does. He sends out the letters then washes his hands of the public hunters and never contacts them or responds. I honestly couldn't believe the things the guide was telling us. 


The guide had other hunters staying in his main camp with him and one of them was a deer hunter that was hunting the property at the same time we were hunting. We were told that only cow elk hunters would be on the property. We don't know if he had a private or public tag but the guide told us that other deer hunters will be here the following week to fill their tags. 


I felt like we were not supposed to be on the property with how we were being treated and with how the guide was talking to us. We hunted the best we could, hiked and drove a lot and sat for hours. We did not see one elk on the property. My brother in law talked to one of the sheep herders and he said he has not seen any elk on the property and told us he last saw them just off the property. Sure enough we were able to find them off the property but it was not an area we could get to even if we wanted to. Their were insane amount of sheep scattered over the whole property. Everywhere we went there was another heard of a few dozen sheep. At this point I felt like this hunt was being sabotaged on purpose. 


When my family had hunted this property before they have always had struggles with sheep and the operators but never to this extent. They have always been able to be successful despite the operators lack of help and the amount of sheep on the property. I feel like my time and hunting points were wasted. I'm a mom of 2 and it is hard to get overnight babysitters for multiple nights and drive 2 hours away, spend all this money on the tag that I'm not getting back, gas, and food, just to feel like I was set up to fail from the beginning. 


I was beyond disappointed with how the operator and guide treated us. And truly feel like we were never given a fair chance. I was so excited to go on this hunt. This definitely makes me re think putting in for a CWMU tag if this is how the program is run. They made it near impossible for us to have a successful hunt and for someone like me who has never gotten an elk before, this was very frustrating. With how hard we hunted we should have at least been able to find elk on the property and had chance to shoot one.


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## cc6565 (Feb 6, 2012)

OriginalOscar said:


> https://wildlife.utah.gov/about-the-cwmu-program.html


I agree the rules are not so specific however every CWMU has to keep a good satisfaction rating and a minimum success rate and if public hunters are harvesting and having a positive experience they wont stay a CWMU for long if we speak up.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks for the follow up, sorry to hear you guys had a bad time and got treated poorly.


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## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

After reading these horror stories, and many others like them, is dealing with all this BS worth it? Is the hunting that much better that it's worth putting up with? These are not rhetorical questions, I have very limited experience hunting CWMU's. At a certain threshold if the hunting is that good, I could stomach the BS, but if not I'll continue to hunt good old public land.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

That certainly sounds rough, but I can see why the result wasn't an automatic reissue of tags for next year. The rude guide and unresponsive operator are definitely not what the CWMU board wants to have happen, but it is up to the CWMU to say what gates can be used, which roads can be driven, or that you have to be on foot the whole time. They might have violated grazing agreements with the number/timing of the sheep, but maybe not. It definitely sounds to me like a hunt where I would have felt similarly to you guys and that just sucks. But the DWR can require them to issue you a permit the following year if the CWMU broke the rules. Based on the above, it sounds like a terrible shift in management/service on the property (and IIRC they are published as being on probation so good on you and the other hunters for complaining), but technically within the rules of what a landowner can do. That just sucks. From ratings, experience, and talking around I think the ratio of good:bad is 3:1, so don't give up on the program as a whole.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't think most people have horror stories on CWMUs. I think that for the most part, people that understand the CWMU program and what they are getting have good experiences. Yes, there are bad experiences, and that's why I encouraged the OP to post the unit. There is absolutely no reason to keep negative CWMU experiences secret or anonymous. If bad experiences become a trend for a specific CWMU, they should have their CWMU revoked. 

I've seen two types of horror stories on CWMUs. 1-The public hunter that is either mistreated or just getting screwed. While I know this happens, I think it's pretty infrequent. Those CWMUs should be kicked out of the program. 2- the public hunter that thinks just because it's a CWMU it will be easy and they'll kill a "trophy" animal, and complain when it is not that way. I think these are more frequent. Unrealistic expectations or not understanding the rules of the operator beforehand have led to many unhappy public hunters on CWMUs. This is not the CWMU or DWR's fault.


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## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> I don't think most people have horror stories on CWMUs. I think that for the most part, people that understand the CWMU program and what they are getting have good experiences. Yes, there are bad experiences, and that's why I encouraged the OP to post the unit. There is absolutely no reason to keep negative CWMU experiences secret or anonymous. If bad experiences become a trend for a specific CWMU, they should have their CWMU revoked.
> 
> I've seen two types of horror stories on CWMUs. 1-The public hunter that is either mistreated or just getting screwed. While I know this happens, I think it's pretty infrequent. Those CWMUs should be kicked out of the program. 2- the public hunter that thinks just because it's a CWMU it will be easy and they'll kill a "trophy" animal, and complain when it is not that way. I think these are more frequent. Unrealistic expectations or not understanding the rules of the operator beforehand have led to many unhappy public hunters on CWMUs. This is not the CWMU or DWR's fault.


I had a positive experience on the Coyote Little Pole CWMU this January for cow elk. The operator was hard to get in touch with, but when I did he was very helpful. It's a tough hunt because killing something from the road is unlikely, and I went into the hunt knowing this so I wasn't disappointed when I had to hike miles in the snow. This was my first and only experience on a CWMU hunt. Because of my generally positive experience this year, I have considered putting in for other CWMU hunts but wanted to know if the alleged BS at other CWMUs is worth it. Although there are a ton of complaints out there on CWMUs, sounds like you're saying most people have positive experiences which makes sense as most public forums/reviews have a disproportionate amount of complaints vs. good reviews. Thanks for your input


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Let me expound a little, if I may. I (along with both my brothers and my dad) have only hunted one CWMU, Deseret. I've had three cow tags there in my life, most recently this most recent hunting season. Each time I felt as if I was treated as a paying customer. The first time (late 90s) I was given a free guide. The second time I did their free "hosted" option, and this year I did the DIY option. This year was way different than the others. They offered a seven day period to hunt as many of those days as we wanted. I went opening day, and it was a bit of a mad house. Lots of trucks driving the roads. I spoke to a couple other hunters that were frustrated because they had either hunted there before or knew people that had and it was a pretty easy hunt. But this year you just weren't seeing them from the roads. We were not successful that day, but mostly due to the "guests" my brother and I brought were our young kids and we just drove around. I did see the biggest deer I've ever seen on the hoof though, so it was cool. I wasn't too worried because I knew I had other days to go back up. Lots of people frustrated that day, very few killed elk that day. 

I went back up mid-week with my other brother. We knew where elk were at, and we knew we will likely wouldn't see them driving around. So we hiked down a canyon, ran into a herd of 150-200 elk, shot one at about 50 yards, and got to work. It was 1.74 miles from the kill location back to the road where the truck was parked. We quartered the elk and each carried half. It was work, but I had a great experience. I'd rate it 5 of 5 for satisfaction. I guarantee there were hunters up there that would not share my opinion on the exact same hunt dates. It just is what it is. 

My dad had a public big bull tag up there in 2008. He had some real health challenges at that point in his life. Tom Land bent over backwards to make my dad successful that year. I can't even begin to tell you how awesome they made the experience for my dad. He ended up killing an 11 year old 6x6, fulfilling his life long dream of killing a mature bull, and my family will be forever grateful for this. My dad passed away less than a year later. He had done his bull in a euro mount, and it was a major focus at his funeral services. I still love to look at it when I'm at my mom's house. He was not a paying client, but I guarantee no paying client got more individual attention that year than my dad did at Deseret. 

I share this just to show my (our) experience with the CWMU program, and one CWMU in particular. As I said, I think most CWMU experiences are positive. But let's out the bad ones!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I and my family have hunted 8 different CWMUs, Deseret being one of them, for various species with never a bad experience. All said and done over the 20 some odd years we've hunted on CWMUs there have been LOTS of tags between siblings, cousins, uncles/aunts, grandparents, friends, etc. Not even hyperbolically speaking, I've had first and (very good/reliable) second hand experience on over a hundred CWMU tags. Some of the units are incredibly top notch, like Deseret, and others are even better still. 

We've had one CWMU where a few people pulled buck tags, and compared to other CWMUs it could be considered "awful" but in reality it was a great hunt with better than expected bucks on a GS unit in the early 2000s and they all were happy, basically a 4/5. That particular property got sold and is no longer in the program, but I would have considered hunting it again as it only took 2-3 points to pull the tag for a good chance at a 20-24" 4x4 buck. 

Some CWMUs you are basically hunting in a deer/elk/etc petting zoo, and others are serious work. But I really love the program as a whole and already miss being able to apply for those tags now as a nonresident.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Well, I served for 5 years on the CWMU Committee as a Sportsman's Rep. After sitting through many of these disciplinary councils, I come away with hope that the CWMU program is changing for the better. We re-wrote the Rule in 2007ish and gave the Public Hunter more "rights" (if that is what you want to call them). It is very important that the Public make themselves aware of what they can expect. That said, I have found that amicable communication can make it easier to work together and resolve issues, of course that has to go both ways.

Just some advice-- 

-Contact the CWMU before you apply and see how they are to work with before you spend your money and points. 

-Make contact with the CWMU shortly after you draw. If the CWMU will not call you back then call the Regional UDWR office where the CWMU is located and ask them to help. Get issues resolved before the CWMU and UDWR get busy with Fall hunts.

-Make yourself aware of the rules that benefit you. Such as minimum hunt days, timing of the hunt, access, etc....

-If you have a problem, file a complaint. Be willing to discuss the complaint with the UDWR and if possible, attend the CWMU disciplinary council.

It is kind of a police ourselves situation to make it better. The members of the current CWMU Committee are good guys with a desire to protect the Public's interests. 

That is my 2 cents, earned after walking the road for 5 years......

...


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## KRH (Jul 27, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> Let me expound a little, if I may. I (along with both my brothers and my dad) have only hunted one CWMU, Deseret. I've had three cow tags there in my life, most recently this most recent hunting season. Each time I felt as if I was treated as a paying customer. The first time (late 90s) I was given a free guide. The second time I did their free "hosted" option, and this year I did the DIY option. This year was way different than the others. They offered a seven day period to hunt as many of those days as we wanted. I went opening day, and it was a bit of a mad house. Lots of trucks driving the roads. I spoke to a couple other hunters that were frustrated because they had either hunted there before or knew people that had and it was a pretty easy hunt. But this year you just weren't seeing them from the roads. We were not successful that day, but mostly due to the "guests" my brother and I brought were our young kids and we just drove around. I did see the biggest deer I've ever seen on the hoof though, so it was cool. I wasn't too worried because I knew I had other days to go back up. Lots of people frustrated that day, very few killed elk that day.
> 
> I went back up mid-week with my other brother. We knew where elk were at, and we knew we will likely wouldn't see them driving around. So we hiked down a canyon, ran into a herd of 150-200 elk, shot one at about 50 yards, and got to work. It was 1.74 miles from the kill location back to the road where the truck was parked. We quartered the elk and each carried half. It was work, but I had a great experience. I'd rate it 5 of 5 for satisfaction. I guarantee there were hunters up there that would not share my opinion on the exact same hunt dates. It just is what it is.
> 
> ...


That's a great story, congrats to you and your dad on your success at Deseret


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

For what it's worth, I can say that a good friend of mine had the same type of experience on the Wallsburg last year for cow elk. All public hunters were jammed on the ranch together and the operators were less than helpful. 

Hopefully the Wallsburg boys can make some improvements to their modus operandi and start treating the public hunters better. Thank you for posting the details. They were very helpful.

I also tried several times to contac Shayne Ford this year. He never answered and never returned my calls.-----SS


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Sounds like Wallsburg is a bad apple. Hopefully everyone with bad experiences there contacts the Division on this. They should not continue to get the benefit of the CWMU program if they don't give the benefit to the public.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Hunter Satisfaction scores on the right are telling and good information when considering a CWMU. 
- Link https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2016/2016_le_oial_hr.pdf


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## DUSTY NOGGIN (Feb 27, 2017)

OriginalOscar said:


> Hunter Satisfaction scores on the right are telling and good information when considering a CWMU.
> - Link https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2016/2016_le_oial_hr.pdf


thanks for that , i haven't ever seen that report before


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

OriginalOscar said:


> Hunter Satisfaction scores on the right are telling and good information when considering a CWMU.
> - Link https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2016/2016_le_oial_hr.pdf


Those satisfaction scores are for bucks/bulls... I'd venture to guess you may see a different level or standard of treatment to antlerless hunters... but if a CWMU receives poor marks from buck/bull hunters then you can probably assume the problems are systemic within that particular operation.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

And those satisfaction rates include private (paying/family) tag holders. So take them with a grain of salt......

..


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

And they include the bunch of upset public hunters that had unrealistic expectations of what the CWMU program accomplishes and did not understand the restrictions associated with it when applying.

Just like for the public land LE and general season units, satisfaction ratings have to be taken with a grain of salt. But they can be helpful in the process.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Easy there Vanilla. Just letting people know a little bit to help them interpret the stats. Lets say a unit has 19 tags-- 2 public and 17 private. 17 private guys give the unit a 5, while the 2 public guys give the unit a 2. The unit would have a 4.7 rating out of 5, which looks great, but the rating doesn't help the public hunter looking to apply know the public hunter satisfaction. 

Or days hunted-- A unit might have 5 tags and and days hunted average of 15. That number might be skewed because the landowner and his son hunt it every day for 60 days, while the public hunter might have killed in one day. 

Just some info.....
..


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Packout said:


> And those satisfaction rates include private (paying/family) tag holders. So take them with a grain of salt......
> 
> ..


This is actually a really great point, and I think a valuable suggestion to the program would be to record and publish the public tag satisfaction separate from the private. Maybe make it a 3-5 yr running average to allow for some individual anonymity.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm not disagreeing with you in the least, Packout. Just also providing information for the interpretation of the numbers. Like you, I agree the numbers need to be viewed carefully.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

another angle is that people straight up lie about their experience to protect a sleeper unit. It's just part of the game and should be expected.

I had a great experience with one of my kids on a CWMU and was thanking the operator before leaving. He said that if I was really thankful that I would rate him a 3 and keep my mouth shut. 

Hence the reason why there isn't very much real info out on the Web regarding CWMUs. It takes a lot of effort and risk to find the great ones and, like a good fishing hole, folks aren't in a hurry to share secrets.-------SS


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## Bucket List (Nov 27, 2014)

This is a great thread with lots of opinions. There was a thread a while ago asking for a "sticky" for this subject, I think that would be a good idea. With so many CWMU's that cover a lot of land in this state, it is becoming a big option in the hunting opportunity in this state. A place to give experiences would benefit many.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Packout said:


> And those satisfaction rates include private (paying/family) tag holders. So take them with a grain of salt......
> 
> ..


Based on your board experience what resource does the average person have?


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Umm, did anyone really believe CWMU were some sort of a gain for public hunters? CWMU are solely, and 100% an exception in Utah hunting laws to give commercial buisness access to REPEAT CUSTOMERS(no pesky waiting periods) and 3 month long hunt seasons. Its not about anything else, so while its admirable some CWMU operators are good buisness people and realize having public support only helps them, most see the public as a tax on their profit margins. Close the ability of paying tags to not have waiting periods, and the CWMU goes away. The CWMU program needs to be a land access, or lease selling program, not a seperate, commericial entity with its own rules, own laws, own program. The threat of "we ll just sell to ranchettes" is BS.

But, good on the DWR for taking the complaints seriously.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The CWMU program has been a benefit and a gain to my family, and all we have ever been is public hunters. This can't even be debated, so at least in one case, you are wrong.


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## muleydeermaniac (Jan 17, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> The CWMU program has been a benefit and a gain to my family, and all we have ever been is public hunters. This can't even be debated, so at least in one case, you are wrong.


Agreed, seeing your family in the pics you've posted made me smile a lot! I loved your dad he was a great man! I love the fact they treated him so great up there! 
But myself and a lot of my friends have hunted CWMU's and have had a lot of fun on them and great hunting. It wasn't always easy hunting but seeing the quality of animals is great. I tore my ACL on an Elk hunt on one unit on the first day and had one of the guides take time out of his day and put me in an area I could still be successful on my hunt. I tipped him for it, but went in with my brother and dad without the use of a guide at all. He just heard what had happened and decided to help me out a little with an area. He didn't stay, just showed me the area a little bit and where to find the elk.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Totally disagree with Hoss's inference that the CWMU program isn't beneficial to public hunters. Just the pressure relief it provides in the draws is worth the price of admission. 

The biggest 'problem' that I see with the CWMU program is that public hunters are forced to do a little research in order to identify the opportunity they want. I know.....it's horrible. Why won't someone just write a book with all the secrets?------SS


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I'll echo Vanilla and SpringvilleShooter here and say the CWMU program has been a huge benefit to my family as public hunters. More than 100 tags with only 3-4 that I can remember ever going unpunched has resulted in thousands of pounds of meat in our freezers and innumerable priceless memories. 

The CWMU program is already an access program, but Hoss, you just don't like the chosen method of payment. The large number (I would estimate a majority) of CWMUs do not sell their private tags, as the increase in insurance and liability costs often outweigh the potential revenues. Plus, a lot of the owners are hunters themselves and enjoy hunting on their land with their family. Go out and find some private ground that isn't CWMU and see if the owner will accept an offer for access--often I've found they really don't want your money and aren't going to let you on anyway. 

Another thing that often goes unnoticed as a benefit of the CWMU program is the owners have to allow the DWR access to conduct studies/etc on all wildlife and not just the species the CWMU is allocated tags for. I know CWMUs on the La Sal unit have helped bear hunting opportunities significantly there. In other areas, turkeys, grouse, quail, etc have been studied and benefitted from the CWMU arrangement, and lots of these animals move back and forth from public to private. Lots of public benefits to the program. 

If you want to find some great public land hunting in Utah, look at maps of the CWMUs and find a hard to access area bordering the CWMU. Some of the CWMUs back up to patches of public land that due to rivers/cliffs/no roads on the "access" sides are so isolated they might as well be private to most guys. The kicker is the CWMU can't hunt them, the public might think they can't get there, but if you work hard and figure out your route you can have an INCREDIBLE little hotspot. Because the animals on the CWMU know they get zero pressure there, they tend to run to these pockets when the lead starts flying. Some of these pockets are even quite accessible as long as you have a good gps to identify the ~50' corridor of public between private parcels in order to access the quarter section or so of forest land in the middle. I know of one where you have to cross a 300' stretch hugging a cliff with a 2000' drop to get to it, but it is almost a square mile of public surrounded by private land. With the right pucker factor tolerance, the deer and elk hunting there is very, VERY good on public land.


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## Oblivion5888 (Sep 12, 2011)

Seeing as I was one of the ones complaining about the cwmu program earlier in the thread, I think it best if I chime in on how my experience went with one this year, and why I was disappointed with it. However, I will not be releasing the name of the CWMU or the operator until I see what kind of response this gets.

After a few hours of research into draw odds, cwmu locations, and harvest rates, my father and I finally decided to try and burn our antlerless elk points on a cwmu hunt that we felt would provide a great opportunity for both of us to draw and harvest animals. We were both ecstatic when we saw the hits on our CC's, this was going to be a great opportunity for us both to harvest our first ever elk.

With this being our first ever CWMU hunt, I think I should cover what my expectations were going into this hunt. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about what a CWMU hunt is, and what kind of experience it should provide.

*My Expecatations:* Going into this for the first time, I was expecting it to be like any other public land cow elk hunt i've been on, except it would take place on private land. I expected that we would schedule our days with the operator, show up at the gate the day of the hunt, be told the boundaries of the area, and then be turned loose to have a good time. I did not expect to be guided or have any help at all with the hunt.

*What we got:*We were contacted in early July via mail by the operator of the CWMU. We filled out the dates we wanted, signed a waiver, and sent the mail back to him for consideration. After a couple months of hearing nothing back we finally decided to call the operator and see if our dates were good. He said he had received, and that he was going to accept our days in late November for the hunt. We were told to contact him a week before the hunt and we would schedule a place to meet up and head out on the property.

The week before the hunt arrived and we could not contact the operator at all. Phone calls were left unanswered and not returned, etc. Finally, a day before the hunt we were able to get a hold of him, only to be told it would be a waste of our time to come down and hunt. The elk weren't around and it wouldn't be worth the drive. I really do feel the operator had our best interest at heart here, which was appreciated. We delayed our hunt 3 more times before finally being told to come down in early January.

The first two days of our hunt were extremely disappointing. We were to be guided by the operator and his buddy, and weren't allowed to really hike around the property at all. It would have been difficult hiking due to knee deep snow, but I still feel we could have done it, and it would have upped our chances of harvesting exponentially. We essentially just drove around the edges of his property on paved roads and glassed. We did see some cows on his property about 1 mile out from where we were glassing. When we asked if we could pursue them, we were given a curt "no" from the operator, saying he didn't want us to chase them further up the valley. After "hunting" for about 4 hours over 2 days, we headed home sorely disappointed. On the way out we planned out one more day to come down and hopefully get our cows.

The final hunt day arrived and we met up with the operator at a location he requested. The very first thing he asked us when we showed up is if we would be okay with taking only one animal between our two tags. Being put on the spot, and not wanting to be confrontational, we meekly agreed that we could do that. We found the elk about 200 yards from the road at first light and were unable to get a shot before they headed over the ridge they had bedded on.

At this point the operator did something he did not have to do, he took us back into his property in his personal side by side with snow tracks. Don't get me wrong, we appreciated this greatly, and it was a very kind thing for the operator to do. It was not something we expected and he really went above and beyond here. As we headed back into the property, we were able to cut the herd of elk off at about 300 yards. We exited the sxs and took aim on the cows. My dad fired first and made an excellent shot on a broadside cow, dropping her with one shot. I still had my crosshairs on the vital area of another cow and asked the operator if I could shoot another one to fill my tag as well. Once again, we were told "no".

At this point, I dang near pulled the trigger. After all, they weren't his cows, and I had a tag for the unit, he couldn't really do anything if I shot one for myself. However, being a mile back in on his property because of his snow machine, I didn't feel that it would be in my best interest to go against what he was saying. The elk herd moved on and we cleaned out the one cow we shot. The operator was kind of enough to drag it back to the truck with his side by side for us. Once again, he went above and beyond by doing that.

What really disappointed me was the fact that I wasted 2 points, 50$ in tag fees, gas money, and other costs just to be told "no" when the my opportunity to harvest a cow came. I don't feel it was the operators place to ask that we only harvest one cow with two tags, and believe he was out of line by doing so. If the encounter with the elk had taken place under different circumstances (closer to the road), I probably would have pulled the trigger on one of those cows and dealt with operator after the fact. I haven't officially filed any complaints with the DNR about this, but have thought extensively about doing so.

That said, there was some give and take with the hunt. Like i said, he didn't have to take us into his property in his side by side. He didn't have to haul the elk out for us or anything like that. But he still did it for us, and trust me, we were both very appreciative of that. However, I was still disappointed with the fact that we were told to harvest one animal. I truly feel that the reasoning behind asking us to take only one animal was laziness. That whole day we were made to feel like we were in his way and he couldn't wait to be rid of us. It almost seemed like he felt obligated to let us get at least one, but didn't want to deal with taking the time to let us clean and haul a 2nd one out.

I've probably rambled on too long here, but that was my experience with the CWMU program. I haven't decided yet if I am going to file a complaint or not. It will probably depend on what you people think about the situation. I would almost feel bad complaining after he drove us around in his side by side and hauled our elk out for us.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I can't wrap my brain around a CWMU operator telling someone they can't fill their tag. That is way out of bounds, regardless of how nice he was to take you around on the snow machine. None of the other factors would make me file a complaint. While annoying, I would have just dealt with it. 

But you had a legal tag, it should not have gone down with them telling you that you can't shoot one.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I'm pretty sure CWMU tags are issued with the expectation that there will be a 100% success rate. Am I wrong?
I've only been around a couple of CWMU's so I don't know for sure. But the ones I've been on seemed like it was almost mandated that all the cow hunters fill their tags to control the herd.

Now both of them allowed the paid bull hunters first chance and the public bull hunters the second chance before any cow hunter got to hunt but I guess I can see that a little bit.

So yes I agree that you should not have been told you could only shoot one.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> I can't wrap my brain around a CWMU operator telling someone they can't fill their tag. That is way out of bounds, regardless of how nice he was to take you around on the snow machine. None of the other factors would make me file a complaint. While annoying, I would have just dealt with it.
> 
> But you had a legal tag, it should not have gone down with them telling you that you can't shoot one.


Ya, I can't make sense of this either. When he asked if you would be OK taking one elk between two tags did you ask why he wanted that? I would not have agreed to that unless there was a justifiable reason. It's an awful big sacrifice you made there - I mean we are talking about elk steaks here for crying out loud, not to mention the points, tag fee, etc you put into this hunt. This is a head scratcher for sure......

I guess if he said something like "Hey guys I really feel like ass today I think I have the flu, could I get you guys to just take one of two elk so I can get my Nyquill on board and get back to bed asap" then I would have to have some serious thought as to how nice a guy I am.

But to answer more directly. This is ridiculous to say the least. He pretty much just voided your tag without any good reason it sounds like. I can't really think of a worse complaint that could be had.

Not to mention the dwr is very serious about managing cow elk across cwmu s. It is a COOPERATIVE WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT UNIT and this operator is not cooperating with the DWR with that action it appears. You kinda of owe it to the DWR to file the complaint from my perspective.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

First, based on your post Oblivion, I don't think your couple hours' research included a call to the operator. Had you done that I'm confident you wouldn't have been surprised by the hunting style on your original trip. 

Second, while at first glance the "would you be ok to only fill 1 tag" thing seems odd--and what I'm about to say does not completely change this impression for me either--there is another way of looking at this. Under the CWMU program you get 5 days for a buck/bull tag and I believe it is only 2 for an antlerless tag. So, you both got to go and hunt for the two days required, with the operator to this point being quite helpful if not hunting the way you would have preferred--and again, without talking to the operator first I don't see this as a legitimate gripe-- then the operator graciously (because he isn't obligated to, it is gracious) allowed you guys to return and provided a lot of help under the request only 1 of the tags be filled. Seems to me, if on a public land hunt that you and your dad both had tags but the season ended without a real chance to pull the trigger for whatever reason, and the DWR offered you a chance to fill 1 of 2 two tags the day after it closed....you'd jump at the chance and be glowingly grateful to the DWR's kindness. Who knows why with a cow in your sights he said no, but you could have just left when he originally asked or insisted on filling both and then be ok'd or denied. You were hunting on time that really wasn't yours, and you agreed to the terms before you knew the reality of the outcome. You could just as easily have agreed to only kill one, or both even, and not seen an elk. It is private land, but it is still hunting. 

But, I wasn't there, I'm not the operator, and you didn't want to put the real fact of the issue on the forum until you saw if the lynch mob was for you or against you so, what are you really wanting out of this? If you want to weigh in on the CWMU program, nut up and put a name out there. Based on your description/tale of the operator calling you when the elk show up it sounds like one of the CWMUs near Scofield/Price. And yes, you had a tag for that unit, but since you were on day 3 when only guaranteed 2 days and had agreed to restrict your harvest had you "pulled the trigger anyway" you very likely could have been charged with unlawful taking of wildlife, just as if you had not been invited back and snuck onto the place to do it before the 1/31 closure. Good thing you didn't pull the trigger, and who knows what his reaction would have been...but it could have been a real headache for you.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

middlefork said:


> I'm pretty sure CWMU tags are issued with the expectation that there will be a 100% success rate. Am I wrong?
> I've only been around a couple of CWMU's so I don't know for sure. But the ones I've been on seemed like it was almost mandated that all the cow hunters fill their tags to control the herd.
> 
> Now both of them allowed the paid bull hunters first chance and the public bull hunters the second chance before any cow hunter got to hunt but I guess I can see that a little bit.
> ...


I can say based on my only experience on a cwmu hunt that the operators are very aware of the success rate on cow elk hunts on thier property and they want them to be as high as possible.

To my knowledge the dwr tells them after thier annual survey how many elk they need taken out and then the number of tags are issued accordingly.

Unless they were somehow over the harvest objective this makes no sense.

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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> First, based on your post Oblivion, I don't think your couple hours' research included a call to the operator. Had you done that I'm confident you wouldn't have been surprised by the hunting style on your original trip.
> 
> Second, while at first glance the "would you be ok to only fill 1 tag" thing seems odd--and what I'm about to say does not completely change this impression for me either--there is another way of looking at this. Under the CWMU program you get 5 days for a buck/bull tag and I believe it is only 2 for an antlerless tag. So, you both got to go and hunt for the two days required, with the operator to this point being quite helpful if not hunting the way you would have preferred--and again, without talking to the operator first I don't see this as a legitimate gripe-- then the operator graciously (because he isn't obligated to, it is gracious) allowed you guys to return and provided a lot of help under the request only 1 of the tags be filled. Seems to me, if on a public land hunt that you and your dad both had tags but the season ended without a real chance to pull the trigger for whatever reason, and the DWR offered you a chance to fill 1 of 2 two tags the day after it closed....you'd jump at the chance and be glowingly grateful to the DWR's kindness. Who knows why with a cow in your sights he said no, but you could have just left when he originally asked or insisted on filling both and then be ok'd or denied. You were hunting on time that really wasn't yours, and you agreed to the terms before you knew the reality of the outcome. You could just as easily have agreed to only kill one, or both even, and not seen an elk. It is private land, but it is still hunting.
> 
> But, I wasn't there, I'm not the operator, and you didn't want to put the real fact of the issue on the forum until you saw if the lynch mob was for you or against you so, what are you really wanting out of this? If you want to weigh in on the CWMU program, nut up and put a name out there. Based on your description/tale of the operator calling you when the elk show up it sounds like one of the CWMUs near Scofield/Price. And yes, you had a tag for that unit, but since you were on day 3 when only guaranteed 2 days and had agreed to restrict your harvest had you "pulled the trigger anyway" you very likely could have been charged with unlawful taking of wildlife, just as if you had not been invited back and snuck onto the place to do it before the 1/31 closure. Good thing you didn't pull the trigger, and who knows what his reaction would have been...but it could have been a real headache for you.


I forsee that you will become a very powerful attorney master johnnycake.

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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

johnnycake said:


> First, based on your post Oblivion, I don't think your couple hours' research included a call to the operator. Had you done that I'm confident you wouldn't have been surprised by the hunting style on your original trip.
> 
> Second, while at first glance the "would you be ok to only fill 1 tag" thing seems odd--and what I'm about to say does not completely change this impression for me either--there is another way of looking at this. Under the CWMU program you get 5 days for a buck/bull tag and I believe it is only 2 for an antlerless tag. So, you both got to go and hunt for the two days required, with the operator to this point being quite helpful if not hunting the way you would have preferred--and again, without talking to the operator first I don't see this as a legitimate gripe-- then the operator graciously (because he isn't obligated to, it is gracious) allowed you guys to return and provided a lot of help under the request only 1 of the tags be filled. Seems to me, if on a public land hunt that you and your dad both had tags but the season ended without a real chance to pull the trigger for whatever reason, and the DWR offered you a chance to fill 1 of 2 two tags the day after it closed....you'd jump at the chance and be glowingly grateful to the DWR's kindness. Who knows why with a cow in your sights he said no, but you could have just left when he originally asked or insisted on filling both and then be ok'd or denied. You were hunting on time that really wasn't yours, and you agreed to the terms before you knew the reality of the outcome. You could just as easily have agreed to only kill one, or both even, and not seen an elk. It is private land, but it is still hunting.
> 
> But, I wasn't there, I'm not the operator, and you didn't want to put the real fact of the issue on the forum until you saw if the lynch mob was for you or against you so, what are you really wanting out of this? If you want to weigh in on the CWMU program, nut up and put a name out there. Based on your description/tale of the operator calling you when the elk show up it sounds like one of the CWMUs near Scofield/Price. And yes, you had a tag for that unit, but since you were on day 3 when only guaranteed 2 days and had agreed to restrict your harvest had you "pulled the trigger anyway" you very likely could have been charged with unlawful taking of wildlife, just as if you had not been invited back and snuck onto the place to do it before the 1/31 closure. Good thing you didn't pull the trigger, and who knows what his reaction would have been...but it could have been a real headache for you.





> *Public hunters must have hunting opportunity that is comparable to the private hunters. This is a cornerstone of the CWMU program.*


And back to square one. If this doesn't happen the CWMU should be shutdown.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

3arabians said:


> I forsee that you will become a very powerful attorney master johnnycake.


Don't encourage this hullabaloo! I'm going to start calling johnnycake Johnny Cochran if he keeps up this fluff.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I'm sorry but the rules state you get 2 days. If you are buying a private cow voucher you usually get two days at one price and pay more for additional days... So drawing the tag as a public hunter, getting two days to hunt and being allowed to return free of charge... Then being asked first thing, and agreeing, to only fill 1 tag...I just don't see the injustice here. And yes, I'm probably in the minority on this viewpoint, and that's OK by me.

I do think the holding firm on the kill one when there was an opportunity to do so is odd, but I also think we'd get a very different story from the operator about how things went. 

Maybe he had another group of public hunters coming back for their second attempt the next day/evening and wanted to ensure the elk didn't run off the property. Maybe Oblivion and his dad rubbed the operator the wrong way and he just wanted to be petty in a way he knew he was allowed to be. Maybe he was sick, had stuff to do, or is just a genuine douchenozzle. But he certainly acted within the scope of his authority


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

In response to oblivion.

I appreciate your post and think that it will do much to help educate those with little experience hunting a CWMU. These are not traditional hunts and are greatly subject to the individual operator or whoever is running their hunts. 

Many times the operators feel that they are being pushed around somewhat by the state regarding tags. I know that some felt that way this year regarding cow elk. Tag numbers were raised while population numbers appeared lower. I have heard the same thing regarding Moose tags and personally know an operator who has been eating his permits and only hunting the public. He simply doesn't believe that there are enough moose on his property presently to warrant hunting them.

To make a long story short, I personally wouldn't complain against the operator given the info you provided. He could have just let you drive down when there was no elk, given you your allotted time to trudge around the snow in vain, then been done with you. He chose to take the high road and at least ensure that you got an elk. I don't like that he asked you not to harvest but you did agree to it. What I do think you should do is rate the hunt very poorly, giving clear reasons why in the survey. Selling tags for a property where the animals simply aren't there creates a bad situation for both operators and hunters. 

Once again, thanks for sharing your experience honestly and in detail.------SS


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## Oblivion5888 (Sep 12, 2011)

In response to some of you asking what his original reason was for asking us to only harvest one, it was that he felt the herd had been being pounded too hard by hunters. He was hoping we would do our part to help keep the herd up.

Johnny cake, i understand that he was only required to give 2 days for the hunt, but was very gracious in allowing us to come back for a third. However, is driving around for 4 hours over 2 days and not being allowed to pursue animals really considered hunting? All i can say is those first 2 days were a joke, and left me very aggravated that i had wasted 2 points on the unit. I wont be filing a formal complaint with the dnr, but i didnt leave the cwmu a good review either, and i wont be putting in for the unit again. Also, it wasnt near schofield / price. You are correct that our initial research did not involve a call to the operator. A huge mistake on our part, and something I would recommend thay anybody who is looking to hunt a cwmu unit should do. If i decide to hunt the program again, I will definitely be calling before i apply.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Oblivion5888 said:


> In response to some of you asking what his original reason was for asking us to only harvest one, it was that he felt the herd had been being pounded too hard by hunters. He was hoping we would do our part to help keep the herd up.


It's in the Wasatch unit, Dose not surprise me.......
Cow elk numbers are in the dirt!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Sounds like you took away a few good lessons, learned the hard way. If you aren't planning on hunting it again I really see no reason to not name names. Had somebody done that before you applied you might have found it and been educated on how things are done there before applying and without calling the operator. Would 4hrs like that count as "hunting" to me? Not really, but my wife would be all for it probably ---and I would have called beforehand and known that going in. Lots of people out there would love to receive a call when the elk are there and ready to pick one up right off the road in a couple hours. Different strokes.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

I will tell you that I have hunted at least 9 different CWMU'S and all of them have been 100 percent up front and accommodating may not find the animals that we want to see but I don't work hard for it so my fault here is a list I have done 
Summit point
spring creek dodge
bear mountain
grass valley
conover jensen
minnie maude
roan cliffs
emma park
hardscrabble
durst mountain
some were elk and some were deer and some gave more info than others, I have been on property with others and alone, we need to remember it is not the operator's job to keep in touch with us but we need to keep in touch with them and I will tell you this if you contact them before you apply and get to know them a little it helps.


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## Bucket List (Nov 27, 2014)

Let's keep this thread going, I like hearing everyone's experiences with the CWMU's , good or bad. I may want to try one some day, even if it is to buy a tag from the operator.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Springville Shooter said:


> Totally disagree with Hoss's inference that the CWMU program isn't beneficial to public hunters. Just the pressure relief it provides in the draws is worth the price of admission.
> 
> The biggest 'problem' that I see with the CWMU program is that public hunters are forced to do a little research in order to identify the opportunity they want. I know.....it's horrible. Why won't someone just write a book with all the secrets?------SS


My inference was that the CWMU program is set up to provide a commercial hunting buisness in Utah. Otherwise the landowner, would be selling access to his property to a tag holder, not selling a hunt, with guaranteed tags. The public got what they got in exchange, and in hopes that it would be enough to not draw the ire of the public at the 3 month long seasons, or the lack of waiting periods, neither of which the public gets.
I also believe, that originally at least, the CWMU was a landowner program. Its now a guide and outfitter program, with the latter not owning anything. Without the end arounds on waiting periods, and guaranteed tags, the prices they charge would not be as high(no repeat customers year after year), which in the long run would benefit more local folks.
Like I said, some of the operators realize that word of mouth can be valuable, but if they all did this thread wouldn't be here. Strictly buisness wise, the public guy is a nuisance at best. But, the program, like I said, wasn't about the public hunter, it was about the landowner, and paid hunters, and a vehicle in which for a fee, folks could end run waiting periods, draws, and seasons.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

hossblur said:


> My inference was that the CWMU program is set up to provide a commercial hunting buisness in Utah. Otherwise the landowner, would be selling access to his property to a tag holder, not selling a hunt, with guaranteed tags. The public got what they got in exchange, and in hopes that it would be enough to not draw the ire of the public at the 3 month long seasons, or the lack of waiting periods, neither of which the public gets.
> I also believe, that originally at least, the CWMU was a landowner program. Its now a guide and outfitter program, with the latter not owning anything. Without the end arounds on waiting periods, and guaranteed tags, the prices they charge would not be as high(no repeat customers year after year), which in the long run would benefit more local folks.
> Like I said, some of the operators realize that word of mouth can be valuable, but if they all did this thread wouldn't be here. Strictly buisness wise, the public guy is a nuisance at best. But, the program, like I said, wasn't about the public hunter, it was about the landowner, and paid hunters, and a vehicle in which for a fee, folks could end run waiting periods, draws, and seasons.


Hoss, there are certainly a good number of CMWUs that hire an outfitter to run it, but in my experience, many (maybe even most? of the ones I've hunted only 2 sell tags) of the CWMUs do not sell their private tags. The increase in liability risks and insurance costs almost wipe out what money might be made even when selling their bull elk tags at $10-15k. Hiring an outfitter provides another layers of liability protection to a landowner, so I guess you can blame lawyers for the transition from a landowner program to a guide/outfitter situation... And there are a lot of CWMUs with only 5-8 bull tags total (1 public) and fewer than 10 buck tags; typically these CWMUs opt for the 90:10 split for bull/buck tags and give the public all of the antlerless tags as they'd otherwise have to give the public a second bull tag to gain 3-4 cow tags. With those numbers they're maybe looking at $60-75k in gross revenue from selling tags, which if they hire out a guide the landowner might net $20k, but then the landowner still would have to pay the higher insurance premiums which on a 6k acre parcel with "highly dangerous commercial activity" is going to run north of $1k/mo in some places, and that still doesn't fully insulate the landowner if somebody hurts themselves on the land...that level of risk to realize a $10k profit just isn't worth it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Stupid lawyers!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Lawyers are a great alternative to the time when we used to just shoot each other. -----SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Springville Shooter said:


> Lawyers are a great alternative to the time when we used to just shoot each other. -----SS


Not much better but at least you have another person to be ticked off at.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

ok I'm a little confused. 
When you draw a cwmu tag it doesn't entitle you to the same experience as a paying customers on the ranch. You are limited to an area and a time frame for your hunt the operator is not required to hold your hand and point out the elk to you. 
It is a dyi hunt and with your tag all you really have is access to the private land the operator allows you to be on. 
I don't understand why you would feel like you have special privileges that the operator would have to accommodate. 
Also. Most of the cwmu units are working ranches so if they are working sheep or cattle during your hunt how do you have the right to complain. It is his Buisness and it maybe in convenient to the hunters but that is just how a business works. 
I hear about this a lot I have a friend that has a property in the cwmu program. 
And you should hear the stories of the public hunters and what they think they are entitled to. It's crazy. 
I have read your story and I'm not really seeing how a complaint was valid. 
This is a hunt not a shoot them off the road killing session. Sorry you felt it was to hard for you. But just stomping your feet and calling them out for these issues makes you seem like a bit of a entitled whiner

I would love to hear the operators side of this story.


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