# Lack of Ethics



## salmotrutta81

I was up fishing the middle Provo yesterday. Unfortunately, fishing was slow (sorry not much to contribute). Anyways, I was towards the end of my fishing for the day. I had just started fishing a hole. I was working from the head end of the hole towards the tail end (I had just started fishing). A guy walks up behind me and asked if I had been doing well? I told him it has been slow, but managed a few. I continued to fish, when I realized the guy was still standing about 15ft from me (on the same side of the river) and had proceeded to set up a camping chair and a cooler. I initially thought he was waiting for me to finish the hole so he could fish it...Nope. He was with to other folks and once they walked up to him, they all started fishing. [email protected]!!! I kid you not, 15ft downstream from me (I had 30+ feet of line in the water before he walked up). I could not believe it! He was advising the two other folks he was with, so I don't know if he was a guide or not. Anyway, I was very irritated. I tried to be the better person and just moved on. However, I was so pissed I wanted to chew his @ss out! Seriously, what do you do in that situation? I enjoy a day on the water as much as the next person, but I am not about to invade THE SAME HOLE as another fisherman. What do you all think?


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## Grandpa D

This is something that you just live with. Fishing ethics are not written rules.
Even if they were, there would be some that would break the rules.
I don't like it either but it does happen. Best to just walk away and try to continue to have a good day on the water. 
I doubt that saying anything to them would do any good. In fact you will probably come out of it worse off than you will by walking away.
I know because I have tried both methods. 
So just go around them and try to enjoy the rest of the day.


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## swbuckmaster

You said you fished the hole already. Just move on and laugh is what i would have done. Their carma will get em with a skunk!
I usually never spend more then 10 min in any hole on the provo.


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## Packfish

I think you stated you had just started fishing the hole- I would have been doing a little be of wading


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## dartangion

I had the same thing happen to me on the Weber a week or two ago. It pissed me off when two guys started literally casting right on top of my fly line and didn't even say "hi" or anything. Well I bit my tongue and moved up one hole to give them their space. It just so happens that I slayed them at this new hole and the beautiful part was that they were still close enough to hear/see the splashes of multiple fish that I was pulling in. I always took my time bringing in the fish, making them seem bigger that they were (some actually were beefy white fish). I would occasionally look up and see them staring at me while they continued to catch nothing...it was great. They soon left, I went back to the hole they kicked me out of and proceeded to catch fish. I truly believe in fishing Karma!


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## Bax*

Sometimes I wish there was a ethics / courtesy course required by the division before someone starts hunting and fishing. Even if it was some little quiz that you took before you could renew your license online.

Maybe bone heads like that would learn that their actions are really annoying and that they should get some distance between fishermen (or hunters)


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## nate1031

That's gay. Guides don't typically operate from lawn chairs as far as I'm aware.


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## salmotrutta81

I don't know if he was a guide. The people he was fishing with were elderly and the chair was for them. It was a frustrating experience, but I think it was best I just moved on. As some of you said, its just not worth confronting the individual. Either way I wasn't about to let an idiot ruin a day on the river.


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## HighNDry

If my memory serves me right--ethics was brought up in the fight for stream access. I even think there was a dicussion of some sort of "test" or class one would go through to learn not only how to treat property owners but how to act with fellow anglers and how to keep an area clean and uncrowded. 

Utah's crowded waters will only get worse with the population expansion.

Best take up golf--it has an ettiquette policy.


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## Flyfishn247

I wanted to get one of those "if you can read this" t-shirts with the blurry words written up just for the Provo, something to the effect of "you are fishing too close", "back off", or "get ready for a swim". Seriously, I would have probably said something, tossed a few rocks in the water in front of them and moved on.


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## salmotrutta81

I love the idea of the T-shirt!! I thought about throwing his lawn chair in...LOL.


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## martymcfly73

When that happens to me I accidentally wade through the hole they are fishing. I don't know what it is but there seems to be some sense of entitlement on the Provo.


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## drsx

The reason most people make those dumbass moves is because of ignorance. They are that dumb and they don't know any better. There are a choice few who are just that brazen of course. But let's solve the issue, if I have some ignorant a hole approaching me like that you can be sure that I will kindly, firmly, or sternly be verbally educating them . Then maybe they will think twice next time..... Just maybe


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## fordkustom

I always ask folks for permission to join rarley have I been turned down. The ethical thing is ALWAYS ask first.


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## Moostickles

nate1031 said:


> That's gay. Guides don't typically operate from lawn chairs as far as I'm aware.


The good ones do... :lol:


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## martymcfly73

nate1031 said:


> That's gay. Guides don't typically operate from lawn chairs as far as I'm aware.


You mean GAY as in there's nothing wrong with that right? :lol:


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## UtahJax

I have had to show a few folks on the Provo some southern hospitality but in general most are respectful


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## Leaky

drsx 
+1 - I totally agree. My problem is lot's of times I just don't have the gumption but should.  I have done it in the past and most of the time had positive success. It just kind of depends on how you approach em. If you're friendly and give the impression that you're just trying to educate them and are just coming from a "common courtesy" point of view, it helps, especially if you offer to share.


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## drsx

Leaky said:


> drsx
> +1 - I totally agree. My problem is lot's of times I just don't have the gumption but should.  I have done it in the past and most of the time had positive success. It just kind of depends on how you approach em. If you're friendly and give the impression that you're just trying to educate them and are just coming from a "common courtesy" point of view, it helps, especially if you offer to share.


Exactly, with a stern tone of course :lol:


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## dank80

The same thing happened to me once on the middle Provo. A couple guys walk up just as I happened to be releasing a fish. They figure the fishing was good here so they start fishing the same hole I am no more than 15 feet away. One goober had a fly reel on a spinning rod. I haven't been back to that river in the several years since this happened. It's always one thing or another there so I decided its best to just stay away.


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## sinergy

Walk up stream and start shuffling your feet kicking up all the dirt your can, when he looks up stream at you stop and just act like your fishing. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


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## flyguy7

If you guys see me on the water, (especially on the Provo) feel free to kick up all the dirt and debris you want. The more the merrier! I will only say "thank you for the sow bug hatch"


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## sinergy

flyguy7 said:


> If you guys see me on the water, (especially on the Provo) feel free to kick up all the dirt and debris you want. The more the merrier! I will only say "thank you for the sow bug hatch"


Considering the original post was Lack of Ethics and someone crowding salmotrutta81 Im confused Are you saying your the guy that is crowding people ???


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## GaryFish

flyguy7 said:


> If you guys see me on the water, (especially on the Provo) feel free to kick up all the dirt and debris you want. The more the merrier! I will only say "thank you for the sow bug hatch"


Funny you mention that. One day fishing the Beaverhead right below the Clark Canyon dam, I was joined by 4 other fishermen that came in upstream from me, maybe only 30-40 feet. Well, I thought I could yell at them, or deal with it. So I noticed with the polarized glasses, that the fish were stacking up behind the guy just upstream from me. So I cast as close as I could to his legs and hooked a fish not 24 inches from his leg. Anyway, he thought it was pretty cool. Before I knew it, we howdy'd up, and started fishing together. I shared the fly of the day - a size 18 red palomino midge below a 14 elk hair caddis, and we spent the next two hours fishing together.

Turned out, these guys were all instructors at the Air Force Academy, and were on a quick summer break so they headed to Montana for some fishing. I'd never met them before, but all top notch guys. Once I shared some flies, they started catching fish. But the old "San Juan Shuffle" worked wonders that day and we all caught fish. What could have turned into an argument, turned out to be one of my best fishing days ever. I taught them a little bit about river ethics - how it would have been nice if they'd asked to fish the area first, but it turned out well enough.


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## sinergy

GaryFish said:


> 4 other fishermen that came in upstream from me, maybe only 30-40 feet.
> 
> fish were stacking up behind the guy just upstream from me. So I cast as close as I could to his legs and hooked a fish not 24 inches from his leg.


Dont take this the wrong Im just trying to make sense of your post What your saying is 4 guys jumped in the stream from you and you casted upstream 40+ feet at the guy and caught a fish 2 feet from the guys leg ?

Again no hard feeling just trying to make sense of this :?: :?: :?: :?:


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## Flyfishn247

It is simply chumming, kicking up bugs off the bottom and when the fish stack up to feed, just drop a sow bug in the mix and hold on. I have seen some guys do this on the Provo.


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## flyguy7

sinergy said:


> flyguy7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you guys see me on the water, (especially on the Provo) feel free to kick up all the dirt and debris you want. The more the merrier! I will only say "thank you for the sow bug hatch"
> 
> 
> 
> Considering the original post was Lack of Ethics and someone crowding DRSX Im confused Are you saying your the guy that is crowding people ???
Click to expand...

This makes sense here Sinergy. You don't understand what is being said here so you want to accuse me of crowding people out. Got it.... Try googling "san Juan shuffle" and read up before you start accusing people of crowding. How is saying I don't mind if people kick debris up in front of me have anything to do with me crowding people out. Why don't you do some research and listen to others.[edited by Grandpa D]

Gary, great story with a great moral there. That goes to show that confrontation is not always the best way to approach a funky situation. I should remind myself this because I tend to look at it like Drsx. I feel that the best education for the.clueless is shock & awe. As you have demonstrated in your story Gary, sometimes sugar and honey can work better than lemons and pointed.sticks.


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## martymcfly73

I love it when people do the shuffle. I do it for my kids all the time when they get bored on the river.


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## drsx

Lol the shuffle! Classic


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## drsx

Ps I wasn't the original poster.


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## sinergy

flyguy7 said:


> This makes sense here Sinergy. You don't understand what is being said here so you want to accuse me of crowding people out. Got it.... Try googling "san Juan shuffle" and read up before you start accusing people of crowding. How is saying I don't mind if people kick debris up in front of me have anything to do with me crowding people out. Why don't you do some research and listen to others.[edited by Grandpa D]
> 
> Gary, great story with a great moral there. That goes to show that confrontation is not always the best way to approach a funky situation. I should remind myself this because I tend to look at it like Drsx. I feel that the best education for the.clueless is shock & awe. As you have demonstrated in your story Gary, sometimes sugar and honey can work better than lemons and pointed.sticks.


Blah blah blah did you not read the part were I said I was "*confused*" about your post ??? :roll:

Think about context of your post for a minute the original post was people crowding others, then there are more posts about people relating there stories about crowding and how they hate it. I post up one way to deal with the crowding then you post go ahead and I like when people kick up dirt...thats like reading a post about how people hate being flipped off then you post I like flipping people off.... do you not see how one could be confused...But I guess I don't have enough research ... maybe on my other posts Ill be more like you and post up I do a dance when people poach...doesn't mean I like poaching just means I like the bugs in the water WTF.... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

So cool your jets take a minute breath and put some sugar & honey on it ..LOL o-||


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## GaryFish

sinergy said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4 other fishermen that came in upstream from me, maybe only 30-40 feet.
> 
> fish were stacking up behind the guy just upstream from me. So I cast as close as I could to his legs and hooked a fish not 24 inches from his leg.
> 
> 
> 
> Dont take this the wrong Im just trying to make sense of your post What your saying is 4 guys jumped in the stream from you and you casted upstream 40+ feet at the guy and caught a fish 2 feet from the guys leg ?
> 
> Again no hard feeling just trying to make sense of this :?: :?: :?: :?:
Click to expand...

No hard feelings at all. Yes, 4 guys got in the stream, up-stream from me. They entered at the same spot, and then spread out, with three of them moving upstream from there. So one guy was about 30-40 feet upstream from me, with the other guys strung out, upstream from there.

So at that point, I saw the fish stacking up behind the guy closest to me. Him shuffling his feet kicked up all kinds of bugs, and then with him in the current, the fish came into the little backwater created behind him, and started munching away on all the bugs floating by. So I cast to them and caught a fish. Does that make sense?


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## sinergy

Thank You for clarifying


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## JDF_GSP

I have seen my old man play the game of "fist to cuffs" a few times because someone decided to fish too close to him. Unfortunately for his adversaries in these instances, he was a much better fighter than they were.... I will never forget what he said to a guy up on the Madison up in Montana a few years back, "cast that close to me again and i'm gonna pull you off the bank and baptize you!" :evil: 
While a confrontation is not always the answer, some people are slow learners. Giving them the stink eye ought to be enough to get them to move on and fish another hole. When that fails, you are left with no choice but to bloody their nose. 
This scenario sounds a bit different though. If the old folks fishing in your spot were unable to get around all that great I think you did the right thing by just walking away. I don't advocate beating up old people.


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## tye dye twins

JDF_GSP said:


> I have seen my old man play the game of "fist to cuffs" a few times because someone decided to fish too close to him. Unfortunately for his adversaries in these instances, he was a much better fighter than they were.... I will never forget what he said to a guy up on the Madison up in Montana a few years back, "cast that close to me again and i'm gonna pull you off the bank and baptize you!" :evil:
> While a confrontation is not always the answer, some people are slow learners. Giving them the stink eye ought to be enough to get them to move on and fish another hole. When that fails, you are left with no choice but to bloody their nose.
> This scenario sounds a bit different though. If the old folks fishing in your spot were unable to get around all that great I think you did the right thing by just walking away. I don't advocate beating up old people.


Yeah court is great! Try explaining to a judge you had the right to fight a guy over a silly thing like a fishing spot. I think there are better options. I liked gary's story where they became buds on the water. I say take a chill pill, carry on fishing, or find a new spot with better fishing. But fighting over a spot, come on what grade are you in when that seems to be the best option? :roll:


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## tye dye twins

Leaky said:


> drsx
> +1 - I totally agree. My problem is lot's of times I just don't have the gumption but should.  I have done it in the past and most of the time had positive success. It just kind of depends on how you approach em. If you're friendly and give the impression that you're just trying to educate them and are just coming from a "common courtesy" point of view, it helps, especially if you offer to share.


Oh you are so one to talk! I was fishing the weber just below echo one day by myself and you were practically humping my leg! Constantly trying to see my secret lures, your dog trying to steal my fish, tossing sticks in my holes to have sparky ruin them, and trying to beat me to all my honey holes.

Just messing with you Leaky! Boy that was a good joke!


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## JDF_GSP

Guess im just not the kind of guy who likes to "share" a fishing spot with someone I didn't drive to the river with. I usually at least say something to them first like "I will be done here in a minute... Would you mind waiting until I leave before you start fishing this hole?"
Typically they say "sure, thats fine" and I make another cast or two and move on. Problem solved.


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## sinergy

I got agree with JDF, If your walking the bank of a river and see a guy fishing give him some space, move on, find a different hole. I don't understand the mentality of some who see you fishing and think they can jump in the river right next to you.

What I do understand is there's ignorant people out there who either have no manors or have a superiority complex and think a public river is there private oasis and try to chase out there so called "spot". Or they see you catching fish and think they can start encroaching on you. 

I'm from the school people have to be taught or they'll keep making the same mistakes doesn't mean you got to bust them in the nose but Ill say something something along the lines of "your little close don't your think" and if they ignore me or act ignorant then ill approach them. The whole shock and awe thing, sounds naive simple for the fact people will try to test you just because they think they can. I don't know how many times I've heard people say "I don't care" and just be plain ignorant.


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## martymcfly73

Sounds like your dad needs to grow up or take some anger management. People like that give sportsmen a bad name. I can't think of any fishinghole worth a fist fight over.



JDF_GSP said:


> I have seen my old man play the game of "fist to cuffs" a few times because someone decided to fish too close to him. Unfortunately for his adversaries in these instances, he was a much better fighter than they were.... I will never forget what he said to a guy up on the Madison up in Montana a few years back, "cast that close to me again and i'm gonna pull you off the bank and baptize you!" :evil:
> While a confrontation is not always the answer, some people are slow learners. Giving them the stink eye ought to be enough to get them to move on and fish another hole. When that fails, you are left with no choice but to bloody their nose.
> This scenario sounds a bit different though. If the old folks fishing in your spot were unable to get around all
> 
> that great I think you did the right thing by just walking away. I don't advocate beating up old people.


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## ckamanao

Had something of a similar problem up at Tibblefork Res., of all places. I'm on the bank on the right side of little stream that feeds into the res. on the northwest corner with my 3 year old daughter and her pink barbie doll fishing rod. We are dropping bobbers and worms straight out in front of us just to the right of the main current of the feeder stream. A 10 year old kid is fishing to our right, also straight out in front of him. I hooked two little trout and gave her the rod so she could reel them in.
During this time, a guy comes down with his wife and infant, across the little stream from us with his wife and baby. I had just released her trout and am rebaiting her hook when I hear a 'plop' right in front of me. I look up, and this guy has casted parallel to shore to fish the water in front of us, because we were catching fish.
With the kid on our right and this guys rig now sitting in front of us, I'm standing there with a two foot pink baitcaster trying to find open water. I look over at him and he just sits there. I look back out at the water and back over at him again. He just sits there looking at me. Patients is beginning to wear extremely thin. I finally look at him and out of frustration ask him, "are you serious?" He says "what?" I tell him that he casted over in front of us and we have no where to fish. He gets indignant with me when I tell him that he should fish out IN FRONT of him and not in front of other people. He tells me "you don't have to be a jerk about it." I glance over at the kid next to me noting that he has it figured out and he is ten. My response, "I figured it was common sense and not that hard to figure out."

I know I shouldn't have been rude to him. But he just p$#@ed me off. Funny thing-after about ten minutes 3 other people came down, a grandfather, a father, and son-and got right in the stream and started fishing inbetween us. I didn't care because they were fishing out in front of them. But between them and my little girl, they caught fish after fish-right in front of the other guy who got angry and left.

If that guy happens to read this, I apologise for being rude.


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## drsx

How about when this happens: You're fishing still-water, a lake or pond; your line is out in the water clearly visible, and someone(s) comes paddling around the shore line in their dumb-ass raft or canoe and nearly paddles on top of your line. Not a single word uttered, no sorry, no excuse me, no effort to simply paddle out a litter further before passing by. My blood starts steaming every time and it is difficult for me to not lose it. Happened to me last weekend.


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## sinergy

I hear you there I took my dad who in his early 70's who's not very mobile to the south marina at Willard. We were fishing the shore right down from those stairs when a 2 guys in boat come cruising literally right on top of our lines. 

We were clearly visible, they to of had seen us from a distance, not much brush in that area, but still here they come, puttering right through our lines. I mean my dads 72 he cant cast that far out, yet they were right on top of us. Not even a sorry I wanted to pick up a rock but knew better. I yelled " what a bunch of jack asses" they just looked away and kept going. I mean your in a boat you have access to the entire lake yet you cant turn your motor and give people 30 or 40 feet from the shore ???

In my opinion people who blantly do this either just want be a$$ holes or they think there casing shore fisher man away either way i know better now :twisted: :evil:


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## martymcfly73

ckamanao said:


> Had something of a similar problem up at Tibblefork Res., of all places. I'm on the bank on the right side of little stream that feeds into the res. on the northwest corner with my 3 year old daughter and her pink barbie doll fishing rod. We are dropping bobbers and worms straight out in front of us just to the right of the main current of the feeder stream. A 10 year old kid is fishing to our right, also straight out in front of him. I hooked two little trout and gave her the rod so she could reel them in.
> During this time, a guy comes down with his wife and infant, across the little stream from us with his wife and baby. I had just released her trout and am rebaiting her hook when I hear a 'plop' right in front of me. I look up, and this guy has casted parallel to shore to fish the water in front of us, because we were catching fish.
> With the kid on our right and this guys rig now sitting in front of us, I'm standing there with a two foot pink baitcaster trying to find open water. I look over at him and he just sits there. I look back out at the water and back over at him again. He just sits there looking at me. Patients is beginning to wear extremely thin. I finally look at him and out of frustration ask him, "are you serious?" He says "what?" I tell him that he casted over in front of us and we have no where to fish. He gets indignant with me when I tell him that he should fish out IN FRONT of him and not in front of other people. He tells me "you don't have to be a jerk about it." I glance over at the kid next to me noting that he has it figured out and he is ten. My response, "I figured it was common sense and not that hard to figure out."
> 
> I know I shouldn't have been rude to him. But he just p$#@ed me off. Funny thing-after about ten minutes 3 other people came down, a grandfather, a father, and son-and got right in the stream and started fishing inbetween us. I didn't care because they were fishing out in front of them. But between them and my little girl, they caught fish after fish-right in front of the other guy who got angry and left.
> 
> If that guy happens to read this, I apologise for being rude.


Something needed to be said to this guy. It drives me insane when you're fishing w/your kids and people crowd you. Especially when you're doing good. Had some tool crowd my 14 y/o daughter at Strawberry during ice off. He'd cast right in front of her, and she was slaying the fish. She asked what she should do, and I told her to hold her ground. So much for common courtesy.


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## GaryFish

On the same token, I was float tubing at Strawberry years ago in Renegade bay. We were tubing along a ways out from shore. Several cars, pickups, campers were parked in the lot. I'm kicking along in a freaking snow storm and a guy climbs out from inside the camper and starts calling me every name int he book. Apparently, I was tubing over the top of his line. I had no idea he was fishing from inside the camper, or that the pole that had fallen off the forked stick with the tip in the water was his.


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## martymcfly73

GaryFish said:


> On the same token, I was float tubing at Strawberry years ago in Renegade bay. We were tubing along a ways out from shore. Several cars, pickups, campers were parked in the lot. I'm kicking along in a freaking snow storm and a guy climbs out from inside the camper and starts calling me every name int he book. Apparently, I was tubing over the top of his line. I had no idea he was fishing from inside the camper, or that the pole that had fallen off the forked stick with the tip in the water was his.


This situation is an honest mistake. How are you supposed to know some hillbilly is fishing from his camper? You weren't crowding him that I could tell. I spend most of my time combat fishing the Provo. Most people are respectful. It's a few that we all hear about. In my experience anyway. I try and tell my kids not to get too caught up kn it. If someone crowds you go catch fish somewhere else.


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## drsx

GaryFish said:


> On the same token, I was float tubing at Strawberry years ago in Renegade bay. We were tubing along a ways out from shore. Several cars, pickups, campers were parked in the lot. I'm kicking along in a freaking snow storm and a guy climbs out from inside the camper and starts calling me every name int he book. Apparently, I was tubing over the top of his line. I had no idea he was fishing from inside the camper, or that the pole that had fallen off the forked stick with the tip in the water was his.


Hilarious...... _(O)_


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## Clarq

Have any of you tried simply staying put and making things difficult for the invader? Does it ever work for you? I recently tried it at a Community Pond. It didn't cause the invaders to move, but I made their experience a bit difficult. They made mine difficult as well. All in all it made things quite frustrating, but I didn't want to show someone that they could push me around.


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## GaryFish

Community ponds are another thing all together. Its like fishing the Kenai in July. No such thing as crowding.


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## Clarq

Sometimes that's the case. In this instance, they had a good selection of places to be and came to me because I know where the fish are. This is why I remained in place. When a pond is truly crowded, I simply try to leave people to their fishing.


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