# Hodgdon Load Data discrepancy



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

So, I'm working up a new load for my wifes 243, using H4350 and 100gr Nosler Partitions. I had a load we use with H4831 but I'm down to a partial can of that, but I have lots of cans of H4350. It works magic in my sons 7mm08, so being the same parent case, it should do great with a 243.

Looking at Hodgdons site, they show a range of 38gr to start, with max at 40gr. My Hodgdon manual #26 shows VERY different load info 39gr to 43gr max. The nearly 10% difference in max data from the same mfg seems extreme.

I've run into load data that dramatically changed over the years with regard to my 7STW, where older data had a much higher max than current data. Were the old loads unsafe? Are the new loads too reduced for possible liability reasons?

Using the website values, I loaded 5 rounds up at 38, 39 and 40. The 40gr group put 3 inside a nickle, with 2 wildly off to the side. I'm willing to discount those atm as shooter error or wind, but I definitely need a 10 round group to really iron that out.

But here's the thing. We also shot some generic Winchester silverbox, those shot ok... but looking at the brass, I'm seeing way higher pressure signs on the primer than the 40gr max handload. I think I'm going to slowly step up from their current data, to the values in my older, Hodgdon manual. At least until I start to see more flattening of the primer.

Website:









Hodgdon #26 Manual










Left: 40gr handload H4350, Right: generic Winchester silverbox 100gr ammo. Winchester flattened the primer much more than the handload.









Thoughts?

-DallanC


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I have quite a few older loading books and I don't refer to them anymore. This is my thinking.
#1 The books are out of date.
#2 Newer powders have changed with a lot of "double base powders" 

I've found the "newer powders" are more consistent than the tried and true older powders, like, H1000, IMR4831, H4831, H380. 90% of the powders I use today is the Western Powders (purchased by Hodgeon recently) like Ramshot Big Game, Hunter, Magnum, TAC, Xterminator, and True Blue for handguns. I like the spherical shape of the powders, and they meter very well. Better than the elongated powders (pencil lead) like the 4831, H1000 and so on. 

Another "idea" I have, is that the older load books may have been built around the plentiful military brass at the time. We all know how tuff that stuff is if we've used it in the popular -06 brass 7mm mouser. A number of wildcats derived from these military cartridges. Punching the primer out of .30-06 military brass was rough, and then necking down to .270 or .25 without annealing seemed to result in a stuck case along the journey. 

I always begin loading at the minimum and work up to the max. in 1/2gn. increments. I also set the OAL seating beginning at 5 thousandths back all the way to 50 thousandths when working up a new load with a bullet I normally didn't use. It takes me about a year to dial in a load that I like. Sometimes I've been lucky and I have the "sweet spot" within the first 40 loads. 

Have you used other manufactures brass other than Winchester? Is it new brass? if loading spent brass, how aggressive are you when cleaning the primmer pocket if your not using a Sonic Cleaner?
I got a little to happy with the pocket reamer once. When seating the primer, it was way to easy. I shot those rounds on paper and they did fine, but the primer wasn't sitting like it should. It was looking similar to a overcharged load. 

Keep us informed of your findings Dallan and best of luck!


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

And that is why they tell you to reduce your starting loads and work up to find a safe load. 

I have a number of loads for rounds that when my powder supply that I built those loads with I'll need to start all over with load development. On a few of them the manuals don't even list the powder that I am using anymore.


----------



## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

In my experience, the online Hodgdon data is on the conservative side. I worked up a load with H1000 for my 338 RUM and carefully exceeded max by 2 grains (without any signs of pressure - no primer flattening, no ejector swipe, normal bolt lift, etc). I called it good there because I didn't feel the need to push the boundaries any further. I think you'd be fine to keep working up carefully while keeping an eye out for pressure signs.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

We primarily went out to check scope zero... my wife missed the buck of an absolute life time in the last hour of the last day on her hunt. She is usually a crack shot... but missed 3 times with him standing at ranges of 250 to 320 yards. The gun was on... so I guess it was buck fever (it was a beautiful heavy horned 28" 5x5). Kindof heartbreaking, we hunted really hard for 9 days to get a chance like that. /shrug

Unfortunately, I did not have my chronograph with me... I will next time. It would be very useful to see what the 40gr load clocks for speed, to compare to average round speeds (I'll fire another couple Winchester silverbox rounds to establish a baseline for factory speeds).

I'd be SHOCKED though, if the 40gr max load is close to 3000fps with no primer flattening, yet the silverbox is supposedly running 3000'ish fps and smashing that primer flat.

I'm leaning towards Waspocrew's comment on new loads being a bit conservative. The alternative means powder burn rates and pressures are VARIABLE over time and new H4350 is more akin to something like older H4831's burn rate. I cannot imagine the liability Hodgdon could incur if that were true, that an established powder now has a different burn rate than the same but older powder. Lots of people have powders spanning alot of years, especially guys buying the bulk 8lb'ers.

I made the comment initially about discrepancy's regarding 7STW data. I emailed Hodgdon back then (1999'ish) for clarification, and for that caliber and those loads, they were adamant that the burn rate was the same for the powder I was using. They said potentially it was due to more accurate equipment taking the measurements. I then asked if the older data was still "safe" and they didnt really give me a clear answer, but just said when they tested it, that was the result they got.

Anywho, I'm going to give the gun a good cleaning, run some test rounds through for velocity benchmarks, then carefully run a few loads slowly stepping above 40gr and monitoring over pressure signs and checking velocity.

-DallanC


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

I know these aren't the powders you stated, but here is what the Nosler #7 manual shows.


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Smashed primer? The factory Winchester Silvertips are crimped. ah, ha, ha, ho, ho, hee, hee


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> And that is why they tell you to reduce your starting loads and work up to find a safe load.
> 
> I have a number of loads for rounds that when my powder supply that I built those loads with I'll need to start all over with load development. On a few of them the manuals don't even list the powder that I am using anymore.


I agree, the manuals are a guideline, important info when making up some new loads, but there's a lot of differences from one manual to another. Wanna see some weird stuff? Go to Load Data.com. - 306,600 recipes!


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

wyogoob said:


> Smashed primer? The factory Winchester Silvertips are crimped. ah, ha, ha, ho, ho, hee, hee


These were just the generic Winchester Powerpoints in the generic Silver box. I've never tried Silver-Tip ammo, do they even make it anymore? I know people trying hard to locate some a few years back. I haven't seen any for sale in ages

Anyway you can barely make out a crimp on these.. about what I do with my loads, just kiss that edge with a taper crimp.

-DallanC


----------



## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I have a whole bunch of silver tip 150 grain 30.06 Winchester I bought years ago when I was an ammo dealer. Have never shot any of it. I have always wondered if it was any good...... 
I ordered a full case for a few guys, and they swore they would buy all of it. They bought about 6 boxes. 
I bought all the rest of the case. 
Any opinions on silvertip ammo ??

I always shot the PowerPoint150 grain for deer and my Nosler hand load partion165's for elk. 
Neither has ever let me down.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There was and may still be a cult following of those who liked the Winchester Silvertips. 

My brother in law was one of them, he would choose them over any other ammo for his 30-06 or 7mm Rem mag

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

* Nosler hand load partion165's for elk*.

IMO, the 165 is the perfect bullet for the .06! That is my "go to" for my 30-06 and 308. I did load up some Barns TTSX 165 and Berger 168 for the 308 with great performance on paper. My Son just wasn't lucky enough on the Elk hunt this year to use the Berger's on a Elk to see what they would do. I have an idea that they would perform excellent though. I load the 190's in the 300WSM and they destroy.


----------



## Brav26 (Dec 26, 2021)

Quickload comparison. That 43gn seems to work for Sierra 1560 100gn SPBT, but not for Hornady BTSP.


----------

