# Just for fun, let's try not to get this one locked



## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

I'd like to open this up about traditional muzzleloaders and hunting in Utah. First off my definition of a traditional muzzleloader has to be maintained without any changes.
My definition: A traditional muzzleloader is a Flintlock or Caplock design with exposed hammer and/or flint (Fuzzels are not considered traditional in this definition and in-lines, even though invented in the 1800's are not at well). Must be loaded from the muzzle and capable of only one shot before needing to be reloaded. Must be loaded with "loose" blackpowder only. No synthetic powders. The projectile must either be a patched roundball or bore size conical. No sabots. Sights will be open or peep, no scopes.

Muzzleloader deer hunters would be allowed to apply for their choice of the 30 units of the state for their muzzleloader deer hunt AND IF they draw that permit will be allowed to hunt the 9 days of the hunt using whatever kind of muzzleloader they choose to hunt with during those nine days (as is now the case). If they tag a deer their hunt is over for the year. HOWEVER, if they do not fill their tag during the "general muzzleloader deer season", they can join the Extended Wasatch hunt and hunt along side the Archers but the muzzleloader hunters MUST use their primitive weapons on that hunt.

As I said in my beginning statement, let's try and not get this one locked up. Have fun with it, that is my intention for posting this.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

No sabots?

Are you crazy?



just kiddin


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

If I could use a flintlock during the rut on the extended I would be all over it. The problem is, so would darn near every other muzzleloader hunter. The deer population could not sustain that kind or impact for very long.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It would be nice if they just went back to a more traditional ML season. Get rid of saboted bullets, pellet powders, and scopes. Go back to the round ball or conical bullets. If you did this it really wouldn't matter if you were using regular black powder or a black powder substitute, you could even keep in lines. A lot of states do it that way with no problems. I don't think that Utah needs to go the way of Washington and Oregon I believe and only allow side locks but it is something to think about. 

I also think that if you opened up something like the extended hunt you would have a slaughter the first year but it would taper off the second so I am not for something like that.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

It Montana I think, that don't allow sabots for muzzies. They only accept patched round balls or lead conicals. 

I am a fan of the traditional muzzies as you describe them. If there is maybe a 3/4 chance the gun actually goes off when you pull the trigger, that is significantly different than the modern, in-line jobs. 

But for me, I also have a broader, overriding philosophy of hunting in Utah. That is, if I get a deer tag, it is a deer tag. And hunters ought to be able to hunt with any approved weapon during that season, and not choose. If you want to hunt archery, muzzy, and rifle, so be it. You still only get one deer. But hey, that's just me.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm a muzzleloader fan, been so for a great many years. I've been in many "spirited" discussions on inlines vs traditional sidelocks etc. IMO, its the components NOT the gun that gives them their extended accuracy.

Inline muzzleloaders predate "hawkin" style sidelocks by 100 years. Germany had them in 1734, and if you think about it, it logically makes sence. Its a much easier casting to make than a sidelock.

Todays traditional replica's and inlines alike are build on incredibly expensive computer controlled lathe's and mills. Some mfg's build barrels on the same machines, for both their inline and sidelock gun lines.

IMO if we ignore components in this discussion, then the single biggest improvement in either sidelocks or inlines is the high tensil strength coil springs. The original guns used flat springs that would break, come out of alignment and cause all kinds of reliability issues and failures. NONE of todays guns have these problems and they all are virtually failure resistant if loaded properly.

If there is a push to make a traditional muzzleloader season (which i am not against), I want to see it TRUELY a traditional weapons hunt. No coil springs in the action, a 1/48" or slower twist, exposed ignition (no calfs knees!).



-DallanC


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

As a previous poster said, I think it would lead to a slaughterfest. But then again that is just my opinion and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. As far as traditional muzzleloading goes though. I wouldn't complain at all if Utah had more stringent rules about what muzzleloaders and components are allowed. I wouldn't even complain if we had Washing and Oregon style muzzleloader rules.

People seem to forget that a primitive hunt is supposed to be PRIMITIVE! With all these advancements they are making in muzzleloadrs nowadays it almost seems like the ml hunt is comparable to a kids vs adults ball game where the adults gave the kids certain handicaps to level the playing field. After playing for a little while the adults realized the kids were more game than they thought they would be so they took away some of the advantages they gave them. They still had a hard time winning so they kept changing the rules more and more until finally they just said, "Ahh to hell with it, let's pulverize these little b*****ds!"


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> People seem to forget that a primitive hunt is supposed to be PRIMITIVE!


This is a misconception. It was never actually a true "primative" season. I still have my license's from way way back and they all simply state "Muzzleloader" season.

Bows are now capable of +100 yard shots, we hear of people making kills at that range regularly. Rifles are well into the +700 yard range now. Muzzleloaders pushing 200 yards? /shrug

-Dallanc


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> People seem to forget that a primitive hunt is supposed to be PRIMITIVE!


Utah doesn't have a "Primitive Weapons Hunt". We have a muzzleloader hunt. Nothing prevents you from using primitive equipment.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about this subject. I've been a happy part of the muzzy world for a better part of 30 years. I switched a few year ago to a break action because of the simple reason my eyes are not what they used to be (tough to focus on three different points). I felt it was more important to make sure I could make a clean kill, so felt I had to break from the old ways a little. To go the way that Bears Butt has lined out would pretty much end my muzzy hunts. 

As far as using real Black powder only, I think is not a good idea (no offence to Bears Butt). For the stores and people to handle Black Powder is a big safety issue. The simulated BP is just flat out safer to handle and store.

About the only thing, if we are truely worried about range of the shot, would be to limit the powder charge. I'm not sure how you would even police this type of requirement in the field. The second thought would be to limit to round ball only.

It might be a interesting look to see if the success level has changed much over say the last 30 years. For me it has not. I still drop my cap or primer when my hands are cold.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I do not like any movement toward limiting what people can hunt with, particularly when we have tens of thousands of inline muzzy owners in Utah. Probably 90% or more of our hunters are using inline guns. The public has spoken loud and clear with their purchasing power. We like our inlines.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I am getting old enough, I am having trouble with eye vision. If this keeps up, I will have to give up my love for muzzleloading as I wont be able to see good enough to use a 1x scope. I wish there was some flexability in scopes for older people with vision issues. Its those things younger folk dont think about till it bites'em in the butt. I dont care about extending my range in the slightest, but a 4x scope would certainly help in that 100 yard shot.

/shrug


-DallanC


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

The 2012 Muzzleload Resident Application for Limited Entry Deer showed 3,694 applied for 213 tags. Limited Entry Elk showed 6,636 residence applied for 483 tags and a total of 14,791 applied for General Muzzleload deer tags among the 30 units.
That tells me there are about 16,000 muzzleload enthusiasts in Utah.
If I was given a choice to be allowed to hunt the extended if I switched to a more primitive weapon or not be able to play, it just might sway me to purchase a second weapon. That is IF I was a dyed in the wool in-line guy.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

The thought of the extended archers screaming their lungs out in protest of frontstuffers of any type hunting "their unit", makes me giggle. I constantly run into extended guys MILES outside of their unit hunting deer each year.


-DallanC


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

with my bad eyes, a 1x scope keeps me "primitive" in how close I have to get.


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## Uni (Dec 5, 2010)

Primitive is the only way...

Spears > Muzzleloaders

While we are at it. Why don't we outlaw all motorized vehicles while hunting?


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

I like the idea of a non-scoped, non-inline hunt, but I don't have any interest in the extended wasatch... I'd rather have a later hunt when there's snow on the ground.

IMO--and from my personal experience--every "problem", a**hole hunter I've ever run into was carrying an inline... not saying every inline shooter is a jerk, but from my own personal experience it's become more and more like a madhouse with guys that would have normally taken their dumba** on the rifle hunt but they go with the muzz because they couldn't get their rifle tag. 

So really, it's more about culling the herd to guys that are sportsmen who can look beyond the rabbit they're shooting at to see there's a hunter down the draw in the line of fire.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

They could even keep the in lines for the ML hunt, Colorado allows them. But you can't have a scope or pellet powders or sabots. 

For those that are having a hard time focusing on the sights and a animal at the same time try a peep sight. They work wonders for us older hunters.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

ManySteps, I too like the idea of a late hunt with the more primitive muzz, but in some of the 30 units the deer would have moved out to winter grounds and therefore the unit would be void of animals at that time of year. That is why I have put the extended into the equation.
As for the "looking beyond the rabbit", I know exactly where you are coming from with that, but it can and does happen even with cap and flint guns, it's the person behind the rifle that is the problem, not the rifle...I've been there ducking behind the trees to keep the ball from hitting me as it ricochets off the ground after missing the rabbit.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

I just did a quick look into the reports on muzzy success rate. I'm not really sure where the point in time where inlines were more popular.

1973 - 1978 average success 12%
1979 - 1996 average success 21%
2001 - 2004 average success 25%
2005 - 2010 average success 29%

It would be interesting to plot this out against a time line of when significant events took place, i.e. inlines, late hunt to earlier hunt, and such. I also wonder how, when we could buy all three permits early, and we filled our tag either on the archery or rifle this affected the percentage.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Fishrmn said:


> colorcountrygunner said:
> 
> 
> > People seem to forget that a primitive hunt is supposed to be PRIMITIVE!
> ...


You can untwist your panties now. I didn't think I was coming across like I was telling you how you had to hunt. I was just stating a very a mild opinion.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

Funny. I thought you were the one with your britches in a bunch. You were the one who wanted to remind us that it is supposed to be:


> colorcountrygunner said:
> 
> 
> > People seem to forget that a primitive hunt is supposed to be PRIMITIVE!


You can hunt with a flintlock if you want to.

As for a hunt that includes the regular muzzleloader season, and the extended... As the saying goes, wish in one hand and spit in the other. See which one fills up first.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Fishrmn said:


> Funny. I thought you were the one with your britches in a bunch. You were the one who wanted to remind us that it is supposed to be:
> 
> 
> > colorcountrygunner said:
> ...


It wasn't an imposition on you, you just chose to take it that way. Heck even if it was, maybe you should try heeding the words of Thomas Jefferson you are using for your sig.


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## MarkM (Sep 7, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> I just did a quick look into the reports on muzzy success rate. I'm not really sure where the point in time where inlines were more popular.
> 
> 1973 - 1978 average success 12%
> 1979 - 1996 average success 21%
> ...


I beleive it was late 90's that they moved the late hunt up into September. I remember hunting the early hunt in 1998 or 99. Of the five hunters in our group then. Four of us was using traditional style guns and one Inline.

I have moved to an inline since then but I really like the traditional guns and have thought about getting a flintlock round ball gun and use on the ML hunt. I don't think there needs to be a seperate season though. Where does it end? What about recurve and long bows do they get a seperate season? What about pistol hunters should they get one too?

Mark


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

One tag. One season. From September 1 to November 30. Any weapon. Any where.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> One tag. One season. From September 1 to November 30. Any weapon. Any where.


As weapon success continues to rise for all weapon types, the F&G will eventually have to shift to managing on the assumption that 1 tag = 1 harvest, vs the current assumption of X number of tags = Y bucks harvested.

-DallanC


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> It wasn't an imposition on you, you just chose to take it that way. Heck even if it was, maybe you should try heeding the words of Thomas Jefferson you are using for your sig.


Ahh, but it would be an imposition on me if it were made to exclude some of the modern advancements of muzzleloading. ( Stainless steel inline, 1 in 22" twist rate, pyrodex.) But you can still use a flintlock if you want to. And thus, I am in complete accord with the words of Thomas Jefferson that I've quoted.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Fishrmn said:


> colorcountrygunner said:
> 
> 
> > It wasn't an imposition on you, you just chose to take it that way. Heck even if it was, maybe you should try heeding the words of Thomas Jefferson you are using for your sig.
> ...


Ha ha I think you misunderstood my words or something. I don't think people should have to give up hunting with inlines. I hunt with an inline myself with a red dot scope mounted on it and any 180" or larger buck I see from 10 yards out to 200 yards is in huge trouble.


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't post in the hunting section very often but this thread has my interest.
I started hunting with a muzzle loader in 1975.
I have seen a lot of changes over the past 37 or so years.
If I were to make a suggestion, it would be to hold 2 different muzzle loader seasons. One for the old style [flintlock/cap and ball] and another for inline, scopes, etc.

This would be hard to do though with the limited time that we have in the fall.
Perhaps some units could be for one type and other units for the other style.

In reality, I don't see any changes to that affect ever happening.

The DWR likes the fact that many general season hunters have taken to the muzzle loader hunt.
This has helped them with their management plans and also enforcement as there are now less people hunting on the general hunt than there has been for many years.

It all just took the fun out of it for me and I stopped hunting a few years ago, so I guess I really don't have a vote, do I?


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> One tag. One season. From September 1 to November 30. Any weapon. Any where.


With that, you'd have a nearly 100% success rate. In order for that to work, the number of tags would have to be dropped to somewhere around 30,000. Are you ready for that?


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Create a traditional muzzleloader hunt and the the archers are going to want a traditional archery hunt free of pulleys and pin sights. We could take it a step further and have a traditional hunt for both. Require that all participants use brain tanned leather, cotton, or wool of the traditional variety. No binoculars. No fourwheelers. 

Or... we could keep things the same. 

I have tried a traditional hunt with brain tanned leather outfts no binoculars and no fourwheeler. All of that seemed too distracting from what I am used to. Next time I will just go without a tag and without a bow. Back in the day when deer was either sex during the archery hunt it was a ton of work to harvest a doe.


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

I like the idea of haveing the extended primitive hunt using traditional equipment but could one use pyrodex as it's safer to handle than the real thing?


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