# Where the big bucks hang out



## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

> If we don't limit the number of yearlings shot then nothing is going to change. Yes its 35% success statewide, but that number is definitely skewed toward hunters that shoot young bucks.


I personally believe that to some extent the people who shoot two points shoot them in areas where "mostly" young bucks hang out.

On that same note, those who shoot big bucks find them where the big bucks hand out (where most hunters are not willing to go).

This may not be true of all areas depending on habitat, terrain, road access... but I think some people think if we put certain restrictions in place to bring the buck/doe ratio up from 15/100 to 35/100 that they will start to have chances at big bucks in places they are acustom to seeing/shooting forkies. I don't believe they will notice as much of a diffrence as they think.

Does this assumption have any merit?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I think you are partly right, the bigger bucks NORMALLY don't hang out in easy access areas like younger bucks often do. But, the more older class bucks in the mix, the more likely it is to find older bucks in the easier access areas. More bucks in the herd makes it easier to locate bigger bucks. I believe one of the biggest flaws of antler restriction type hunts is it forces hunters to focus on a specific antler trait/age class. This means MORE of the older bucks that would live year to year and bred the does now is more likely to be harvested as a 3-4 year old buck instead of surviving to be a 5-6 year old buck. I think it is counter-productive to intentionally focus on ANY age class for deer/elk. In order to have a larger percentage of the bucks be in the older age classes, we should NOT have hunters 'forced' to hunt only them. The result would be FEWER upper age class bucks, more young bucks, and slightly more middle age bucks. I believe switching a higher percentage of the tags to less effective weapons/season dates, along with increased overall herd numbers will get the end desired result, both short term and long term.


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

I believe that thought has merit, and agree with what you said.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Here is the two-word answer to the problem: doe tags.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> This may not be true of all areas depending on habitat, terrain, road access... but I think some people think if we put certain restrictions in place to bring the buck/doe ratio up from 15/100 to 35/100 that they will start to have chances at big bucks in places they are acustom to seeing/shooting forkies. I don't believe they will notice as much of a diffrence as they think.
> 
> Does this assumption have any merit?


If you travel to the bookcliffs then you will see this happening. You can see 24 inch or bigger bucks from the road. The terrain is easier and there is more roads. If you go to more remote places then you wont see big bucks near the road. If you let yearling bucks grow up then a lot of them will follow the bigger bucks from the winter range to the steep rugged summer range. They learn from watching the mature bucks. They learn the hide outs from following older bucks. These bucks also become mature bucks. This is a taught behavior not a learned behavior.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

10000ft, you have a great point. Really big bucks get chased around a lot if they allow themselves to be seen, so they live where most people won't see them. Small and medium bucks not nearly as much. But I think the medium bucks, 2-3 year olds, still use areas that are easy to access. That is the age group we'd see a lot more of if the yearlings were left alone. The reason all those bucks are accessible in the Book Cliffs is that they aren't anything special. People don't go out of their way to chase them. But where are all the 30 inchers down there? In remote areas, because people harass them 10x more.

My own style has been changing more toward chasing really big bucks, so for my hunt it doesn't matter what the rules are. As long as I can hunt. But I have recently come from the state of mind where a nice 2 or 3 year old deer was a shooter. And I'm sure there are a lot of hunters that have that state of mind right now. People that aren't satisfied with a yearling but aren't so concerned about holding out for a 28 incher. This seems to be the group that is most dissatisfied with deer hunting in Utah. Am I wrong? The meat hunters shouldn't complain, and there are certainly a lot of big deer out there for those willing to chase them. So if its that particular group that needs to get more consideration, I believe a point restriction in some areas would help.


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## EvenOlderFudd (Jun 18, 2008)

Answer? It doesn't work?. But I'am Tellin ya ,, 3 Point Or Better..Never gonna change my mind....


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I am with 10000ft. I have seen a lot of deer and a lot of decent bucks, but the big bucks get big for a reason. I have been eluded by a buck on several different ocaisions. Utah has plenty of trophy potential.


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## weatherby_man (Feb 5, 2008)

I do see your point 10000ft. and believe that is partly true. I ,however, have personally seen first hand in the area where we hunt, all medium and big bucks completely eliminated. I am a 3rd generation hunter in this area and my dad and grandfather know where all the big buck "honey holes" are. They aren't easy to get to and most people don't really "hunt" it, they just get as close to an overlook as they can with their 4-wheeler, sip on a beer, and leave 2 hours later. But, there are truly no big bucks left in there. One of my uncles shot a beautiful 29" typical 4 point in there 3 years ago, but other than that... nothing big in the last 7 or 8 years. 

Of course the 4-wheeler hunters shoot a lot of forked horn bucks from the roads, and this presents the problem because no bucks make it to become the big bucks and be up in the mean territory that the big bucks are normally in. I am sure that there is and will always be a few big bucks that make it through the hunt every year, but since there are so few of them, its hard to dig them out of the nasty country they love to be in. We hunt our guts out and it has gotten worse and worse every year. Last year the biggest buck I saw in this certain area was a 2x3. We are even seeing little spikes and 2 points in the big buck country, but they are so dumb that they always get picked off cuz they just sit there. I agree with coyote slayer that the young bucks learn the 'tricks of the trade' from the older, bigger bucks. Since there aren't many around, the smaller bucks never leave their mom's lower feeding grounds.

If people would just have a little patience, and pass them up, they would have a lot more to look forward to the next year. We watch the wintering grounds every winter and normally see a few great bucks reaching out to 30". This always keeps us going and pumped because we know that they are in there... they just have to be found. Recently, though, the biggest bucks we will see on the wintering grounds are a few 24-26" bucks... nothing 'trophy' size. 

The big bucks, at least in our region (Northern Utah of course), are diminishing even in the big buck country!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

There's a common misconception that deer live to be 6 or 7 years old and that the older they get, the bigger their antlers get. Few deer live beyond 4 or 5 years old, even in protected areas, and the biggest influence on antler size is nutrition, not age.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

This is true Finn and genetics also plays a HUGE part. Several years ago my brother killed a 7x8 muley on the ML hunt and the deer was only a 2 1/2 year old buck so he was considered a very young deer compared to his rack. Believe it or not but some yearling bucks are 4 points. This is truly amazing because its their first set of antlers.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I hope he makes a fatal mistake this year Fatbass and you take him this year. Good luck on your hunt


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> There's a common misconception that deer live to be 6 or 7 years old and that the older they get, the bigger their antlers get. Few deer live beyond 4 or 5 years old, even in protected areas, and the biggest influence on antler size is nutrition, not age.


You need all three, nutrition/age/genetics. you can have great nutrition and great genetics, but if you don't allow the buck to reach maturity he will not be a monster. I refer you to elk, Colorado has BETTER nutrition, and every bit as good genetics, yet they produce no where near as big of elk as Utah. All because of AGE. Deer are no different, a buck needs to reach maturity to reach peak antler growth. You need ALL three.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

+1 and good luck fatbass, hope you get that 5x.


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

Antler restrictions work to increase the average age of bucks harvested. They protect those dumb yearlings allowing them to live through their first post fawn hunting season. It gives them a chance to become more cautious and to greatly increase body size. The buck kill will be be much lower the first year of AR but will return to normal after that first year of protecting yearlings. AR also means you will see many more bucks as the range is now carrying an additional year class of male deer. Implementing AR will significantly increase the total deer population bringing the herd nearer goal. AR is best implemented when the herd is under goal. Hunters will probably enjoy seeing both more and bigger bucks the second year after AR.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

10000ft. said:


> > If we don't limit the number of yearlings shot then nothing is going to change. Yes its 35% success statewide, but that number is definitely skewed toward hunters that shoot young bucks.
> 
> 
> I personally believe that to some extent the people who shoot two points shoot them in areas where "mostly" young bucks hang out.
> ...


After reading this a couple times..... I agree with you about where to "usually" find big deer. Its not going to be in some cakewalk area usually. The places I've seen big deer have been miles from roads/easy access and its usually not in a spot anyone would really want to pack a deer out of. :lol: That is... unless you're just a touch crazy and want it bad enough. About the restrictions, I agree with your assumption but think bigger bucks in easier locations is possible, it just depends on the restrictions you put in place I guess.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Good luck on that 5x5 fatbass.


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## Guns and Flies (Nov 7, 2007)

fatbass said:


> Nambaster said:
> 
> 
> > I am with 10000ft. I have seen a lot of deer and a lot of decent bucks, but *the big bucks get big for a reason*. I have been eluded by a buck on several different ocaisions. Utah has plenty of trophy potential.
> ...


You must not be hunting the northern region on public land, I have not had much success despite puting in a lot of hiking. Good luck shooting that big guy!


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

I personally don't agree with limiting opportunity to increase overall quality. I am currently pleased with the amount of LE deer units, I think area wise it is sufficient, but I think more tags could be issued on all the units. I think there are too many LE elk areas and there definitely could be many more tags for those. I have said it before and I will say it again, any general season region in the state offers potential to take a trophy animal. There are many hunters who consistently take trophy animals year in and year out on DIY GS hunts. One, because they understand the animal, but more importantly, they put forth the effort. People who think we need to limit the opportunity of others either don't want to put forth the effort to pursue trophy animals and want to shoot them from their ATV or they don't know where or how to locate trophy quality animals and believe they don't exist. Because of their inability or their unwillingness, they prefer to limit others opportunity to fulfill their own selfish desire. Let us not forget that many people prefer to kill young bucks entirely for the meat and young bucks offer a great hunt for many of today's youth. My last five bucks have been a big 3pt or better, 4 of which with a bow, and admittedly without a whole lot of effort. Each year I see bucks in the 160 - 180 range and though I rarely harvest a true trophy, it doesn't mean I don't have my chances. I love the idea of micro units, continued improvement of habitat, less rifle tags and more primative weapon tags. With better management and improved habitat, the population will increase, both increasing quality and opportunity. I encourage increased opportunity for youth through general season tags, but not for LE tags. I think a 15 year old would be ecstatic with a two point harvested with a GS tag plus would more likely be hunting with family, why spoil him/her with a LE tag that the average hunter may only draw once in their lifetime and is meant for those who desire a trophy animal. Give the youth the opportunity to put in for LE, but no special privelages to tags, special privelages to GS tags...OK, to an extent. Let us not forget that Adult hunters are equally important because legally they must be present with any hunter under 16. Without interested Adult hunters, even more youth will be lost.

Long story short, better management, same or increased opportunity, special privelages of youth limited to GS tags, and an increase in LE tags in the draw. For those who have doubt GS trophy buck potential, there are trophy animals everywhere, you just have to find them. Please keep your stupid ideas of point restrictions and tag reductions to yourself.

I apologize if I come of a little unhappy. I am a little bitter because I am half way across the world for the Army and don't get back until opening day of the bow hunt. The last three weeks have taken away any opportunity to keep up with my shooting or scouting for my statewide archery tags. Plus, it shouldn't suprise anyone that I have some strong felling on the subject of Utah's deer herd.

Later, and good luck to all on this year's hunt.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

I'm 26 and up until three years ago I had shot a 2,3 or real small fourpoint buck every single year. I come from a family that loves the meat and always pressured me to fill my tag at least by the end of the hunt. They still hunt this way and I have no problem with that. 

I became friends towards the end of highschool with a kid and his dad that took beautiful heavy horned 4x4s every year during the GS in the Northern area. I started to hunt certain hunts with them and hunt where and how they hunt and have really enjoyed it. I still have never conected on a monster but I have had a few opportunities the last three years and even passed on a decent 25" 4x5 last year on the muzzleloader. He would have been my biggest buck ever but our family had a few cow tags and we didn't need the meat.

Currently I am still able to hunt trophy class bucks and my family can take a few "eaters" every year. I would rather hunt a buck/doe population of 15/100 every year and have those opportunites than hunt a 35/100 ratio every 1 in two years or 3 in 5 years.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Tree, I just noticed your new signature.

*"quanity, opportunity, quality...in that order"*

That says it all for me. I think most of us want similar end results in hunting and we all have diffrent ideas of how to get there.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Flyfishn247 said:


> Because of their inability or their unwillingness, they prefer to limit others opportunity to fulfill their own selfish desire.


Quite often, this "inability" is due to limited time. If you have a job and a family you can be severely limited on time when it comes to hunting. Of course the bucks are out there, but not everybody can dedicate 2 weeks of their time each year to finding a big buck. Increasing the number of 2 and 3 year old bucks would improve the hunting significantly for those who only have one or two weekends to chase deer.



> Please keep your stupid ideas of point restrictions and tag reductions to yourself.


This comment is inappropriate. You may wish to edit?



> I apologize if I come of a little unhappy. I am a little bitter because I am half way across the world for the Army and don't get back until opening day of the bow hunt. The last three weeks have taken away any opportunity to keep up with my shooting or scouting for my statewide archery tags. Plus, it shouldn't suprise anyone that I have some strong felling on the subject of Utah's deer herd.


Understood. Thanks for your service and best of luck on the hunt! 8)


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

El Matador I feel for you, but if one or two weekends is all you have for hunting, the last thing you want is makeing changes that don't even allow you to hunt those 1 or two weekends every year.

Also I would like to ask everyone, are we entitled to having easier access to mature deer due to whatever our situations are? 

I wish I could consistantly pull 20 inch browns out of the Weber River (like a know many dedicated fly fishers can) every four years when I dust off my fly rode and throw some random fly on but I can't. should we tell the dedicated anglers that they have to use a shorter rod and only fish on even days..... so my chances are better when I go out?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

El Matador said:


> Flyfishn247 said:
> 
> 
> > Because of their inability or their unwillingness, they prefer to limit others opportunity to fulfill their own selfish desire.
> ...


While I normally agree with you El, I don't believe we should manage our deer/elk herds based on ones ability to put the time into pursuing trophy class animals. If one truly desires an older age class buck/bull he will MAKE the time available. To take away opportunity from others because someone else is unwilling/unable to put in the time is NOT good game management.

At the risk of being called an 'elitist' as someone did earlier, there is a BIG difference between putting miles on your boots and 'hunting'. I have seen people with a tag cover several miles a day carrying a weapon, but that does NOT mean they were hunting, anymore than sleeping in the garage makes one a car. Hunters that put big animals on the ground year after year don't just cover ground. They have a purpose and KNOW that they will get their quarry if they put in the time and effort. I have had clients who have spent years 'hunting' tell me there is a big difference in how they have 'hunted' in the past, and how myself and other guides HUNT. I don't hope to find a big buck/bull, I KNOW I will find one if I put the effort into it. Call that arrogant if you will, but I have done it year in and year out. Two people with a deer tag can hunt the same drainage, one will see nothing/very little, the other will see several good bucks. How is that possible? We all know that happens EVERY year, either to us or by us. One is a hunter, the other is a tag holder hoping to get lucky. Not that that is a bad thing, it just means we should NOT manage to the guy 'hoping' to get lucky. Manage for healthy herds, with 15-20 bucks per 100 does and there WILL be amble older bucks in the herd for those willing to put the time/effort into finding/harvesting a mature buck. There is NO need to take opportunity away from those willing to put in the time/effort so those who can't/WON'T can feel good about their hunting abilities.


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## mulepacker (Sep 11, 2007)

I was hoping someone could record the Olympics for me. I hear the USA is doing well. I would really like to know but I can't afford TV nor do I have the time to watch it. It would be good to if you could send your DVD player and TV as I don't own one, I chose to spend my money on some fuel and accessories for hunting. Anyway it is very hard for me not being able to keep up with the office chat about the Olympics so I am really hoping somone will help me out.
Oh by the way since the Olympics started I have found some very nice mule deer. Too bad I won't be able to hunt the unit this year, as I have a tag for some where else. Anyway I sure find a lot of pleasure in finding the big bucks, they also do a good job of filling my freezer.

"There is NO need to take opportunity away from those willing to put in the time/effort so those who can't/WON'T can feel good about their hunting abilities." AMEN! (Now if we can get our elk management to not define this statement)
One area we are all equal is in time we each have 24 hours, my suggestion is choose wisely when spending it. Money is a different issue but most have sacrificed and do sacrifice in order to put there money where they deem appropriate. I believe most folks could realign there budget to finance more time in the field if it were truly important to them. Society starting with Generation X has become one accustomed to instant gratification and laziness.
This may have more to do with the decline in young hunters than anything else. I am gald I came from a lineage that taught anything worth having does not come easy, it has paid off when putting trophies on the wall.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

I understand what you and PRO are saying, but should people be punished for not having there prioitys/time/money the same as others. Just becuse they can't/wont make wildlife as much of a priority why should they be punished for it.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Salud Travis!

Just because some of us choose to spend every waking possible moment in the hills doesn't make it unfair to the rest of the general population. That sounds like socialistic hunter management. IT"S STILL HUNTING! If you married a wife that doesn't like you gone more than a few days, YOUR FAULT. If you choose to play softball, Xbox, or have 6 kids and can't afford the gas or the time off of work, YOUR FAULT!

I'm going to lobby the sporting good retailers for a 45% price cut, because I chose to buy a big house, to many PBR's and a big screen TV. It's just not fair.   

Weatherby, no one is punishing them, it is a CHOICE.

Everyone is a victim these days.


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

10000ft. said:


> El Matador I feel for you, but if one or two weekends is all you have for hunting, the last thing you want is makeing changes that don't even allow you to hunt those 1 or two weekends every year.


That's funny. The Matador is making an observation about the situation that many find themselves in.

His deer hunt last year consisted of extensive scouting and hunting from a base camp located 7 miles from the nearest vehicular access through some of the most rugged terrain in the state, with daily 2-3 mile hikes into the hunting area. All gear carried on foot, and half the season was severe winter conditions too. The guy is as die hard as they come and he probably spends more time in the field than 95% of deer hunters.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

And after all of that hunting and hiking, he had threatening messages posted on his truck. :mrgreen:


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Weatherby, no one is punishing them, it is a CHOICE


Sure it is. Not saying it is not. That is not the point. Why shoud the choice few have the say for all. The all might just have the perfect souliton to all of the issues yet the few are blind becuse they SHOW UP and they talk the talk and walk the walk. They feel they are entiltled to control the rest of the population. Just becuse that is how things are does not make it right. That is the great thing about our country is we can have a say if we want to. We can have that saying no matter what the few think and or say.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Threshershark wether El Matador was refering to him self or just sympathizing with others he knows my point is the same.


Does everyone DESERVE a four point every year? :roll: 

Does everyone have a RIGHT to a trophy on the wall? :roll: 

Should everyone be able to buy a tag and have an opportunity at whatever buck they want to persue? HECK YEAH!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Weatherby, no one is punishing them, it is a CHOICE.
> 
> Everyone is a victim these days.


Say amen brother! Ditto Mulepacker. We all make choices, and we have to live with those choices. Why should one persons opportunity be reduced/taken away because 'hunters' who CHOOSE not to put in the time/effort _feel_ slighted that they can't get a mature buck on the ground. I give El Matador props for putting in the time/effort like he did/does. My concern is then why is he saying he/I should give up opportunity so those wanting to just show up opening morning can have a chance to kill a big buck w/o 'earning' it? Are we hunters or not?

Travis, I am with you on the elk as well. 8)


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> My concern is then why is he saying he/I should give up opportunity so those wanting to just show up opening morning can have a chance to kill a big buck w/o 'earning' it? Are we hunters or not?


I am not dissagreeing with you or Tree on this one just pointing out other things. The same can be said for the other side. Why should you say that thouse wanting to SHOW UP on opening morning with out doing the work should not get there chance same as you. Your CHOICE is to put the time in there's might not be. They should not be belittled/ non respected for there CHOICE just as you should not be ether.


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## mulepacker (Sep 11, 2007)

I think when something becomes more restrictive that is a "punishment". Therefore with each step that diminishes opportunity we punish all of us. Opportunity is the key ingredient in hunting. No one will ever be successful in putting a trophy on the wall if opportunity does not exist.
Weatherby, in a PM you posed an interesting question to me. Are the elk moving into rutting grounds? I fully believe that is perspective, I can answer yes or no to that question. You will formulate your opinion depending on your understanding and interpetaion of my answer. This is one reason I am willing to help. There is not a definitive for you based on my answer. What you interpet may either lead to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it may also lead you no where. However for me the answer is definitive and results in a correct decision for my hunt. Time in the field can not be replaced or substituted. To answer your question I did see more elk last night than I have all summer. I did see bulls with cows. I did see them in traditional rutting areas. To answer your question I do not think the prerut is started all bulls still had velvet and were in bachelor groups.
We do all make choices, societyand personal situation regulate how/why we make our choices. As said before I have made the choice to be a hunter, I have sacrificed much in order to do that. I do not need or want regulations such to be that a 30" buck or 350 bull are behind every bush. From my experience there is not a need for that. Again time allotted in the field is more important in harvesting a trophy than either the number or quality of animals. That is why I applied for the premium hunt, I have 8-16 to 9-23 to harvest a bull with my bow, you will only get 8-16 to 9-12, who's shoes would you rather be in? 

To get to the jest of this post. I agree that big bucks do inhabit terrain few are willing to work hard enough to consistently harvest. I don't beleive ratios will change that.


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> > My concern is then why is he saying he/I should give up opportunity so those wanting to just show up opening morning can have a chance to kill a big buck w/o 'earning' it? Are we hunters or not?
> 
> 
> I am not dissagreeing with you or Tree on this one just pointing out other things. The same can be said for the other side. Why should you say that thouse wanting to SHOW UP on opening morning with out doing the work should not get there chance same as you. Your CHOICE is to put the time in there's might not be. They should not be belittled/ non respected for there CHOICE just as you should not be ether.


I'm gonna have to jump on the Pro and Tree wagon on this post. This is like saying some lazy SOB who just shows up at work should get promoted because someone more qualified did too. Do the work and get the reward. Sit around and you get what is left. I guess this helps me realize that I don't really dislike trophy hunters, just lazy trophy hunters that want to take my oppurtunity so they don't have to work. If thats what they want then go pay some High fence operator and shoot your "cattle" in the field


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Are we hunters or not?


Yes we are also people. People that have to have a rounded life.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

> The same can be said for the other side. Why should you say that thouse wanting to SHOW UP on opening morning with out doing the work should not get there chance same as you.


Weatherby25 "to SHOW UP on opening morning" with a tag IS getting them *the same chance as everyone else*. What every hunter does from their is like everyone else has said, his "CHOICE".

I respect hunters who are overjoyed to take any leagal buck and just love the meat and had a blast during the whole experience. Or enjoyed the hunt but didn't even get a shot at a fork horn.

I'm getting sick of hunters insisting on doing whatever it takes (even limiting others opportunites) to ensure their chance at seeing bigger bucks than all the little ones they see every year.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Weatherby, in a PM you posed an interesting question to me. Are the elk moving into rutting grounds? I fully believe that is perspective, I can answer yes or no to that question. You will formulate your opinion depending on your understanding and interpetaion of my answer. This is one reason I am willing to help. There is not a definitive for you based on my answer. What you interpet may either lead to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it may also lead you no where. However for me the answer is definitive and results in a correct decision for my hunt. Time in the field can not be replaced or substituted. To answer your question I did see more elk last night than I have all summer. I did see bulls with cows. I did see them in traditional rutting areas. To answer your question I do not think the prerut is started all bulls still had velvet and were in bachelor groups.


You said exactly what I thought you would say. I asked the question more to conferm what I was seeing more then anything.



> This is like saying some lazy SOB who just shows up at work should get promoted because someone more qualified did too.


This happens every day. Like I said I am not dissagreing with them here. Just pointing out that belittling others does nothing for them. It is about choices and there choice may not be right for me or you but it might be right for them. I do not say there choice is wrong or right but I expect the same in return.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> I think when something becomes more restrictive that is a "punishment". Therefore with each step that diminishes opportunity we punish all of us. Opportunity is the key ingredient in hunting. No one will ever be successful in putting a trophy on the wall if opportunity does not exist.


This is one of the best statements I have ever read.


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## cssoccer5 (Feb 24, 2008)

I have hunted the same area for about fifteen years now and have enjoyed EVERY year, not just the years that I get to see the big deer. The first few years I saw very few deer. Then I saw more deer but did not harvest one. After that I started harvesting small deer. Now every year I see at least twenty to thirty bucks a day with a few being big bucks. The area has not changed but my "hunting" methods have.

Every year with out fail I have lots of people, that hunt the same area that I hunt, tell me that they have not seen any deer. I do not think this is because they do not want to see the deer, or because they do not have the ability, I think it is because I put a priority on learning what deer do instead of going out and guessing.

By the way I am married, have four kids, coach my girls soccer teams, play soccer myself, run my own struggling small business, own a house( which needs a lot of time as you know), and I hunt within 30 minutes of Provo.

I see big deer every year and my kids love hunting with me EVERY year.


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## Guns and Flies (Nov 7, 2007)

Okay, I'm that guy that hikes all over the mountain and doesn't seen any deer, these big buck people are talking about. It is not a lack of motivation or effort I can guarantee that, what do I need to be doing different? Is there some good books I can read or something. I am impressed soccer5 that you’re able to do that, you have more time demands than me and you can still get into some good deer. I would love to get a good PM.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Guns and Flies said:


> Okay, I'm that guy that hikes all over the mountain and doesn't seen any deer, these big buck people are talking about. It is not a lack of motivation or effort I can guarantee that, what do I need to be doing different? Is there some good books I can read or something. I am impressed soccer5 that you're able to do that, you have more time demands than me and you can still get into some good deer. I would love to get a good PM.


Yes, yes and yes. Seek and ye shall find.

All of us have been there at one time or another. For me, I talk, sleep and think about hunting year round. Books, DVD's, time in the hills etc...

On the opportunity thing. I agree 100% that opportunity should take precedence. After opportunity comes choice and perception. I personally love the deer situation in Utah right now. I get to hunt for months (archery) and it all depends on me if I harvest a good buck or not. On the flip side, I could put in less time and my _perception_ could be that the hunting sucks, I didn't see much and the DWR needs to do something about it. In the end, if the opportunity is there, I am the only one to blame if I am willing to be completely honest with myself.


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

Wow the more people talk the less that needs to change for our "poor struggling deer herds". I was talking with SWbuckmaster yesterday and without fail we start talking about the good deer we have seen and heard about throughout the state on GS areas. It seems to me as long as the deer numbers go up(which they are) the buck numbers will naturally go up. Until the numbers start dropping over a few years what else do we need to do besides keep our habitat healthy and the roads safer for the critters. Lets divert the DWR money towards these two items instead of things like mandatory reporting or more areas to manage/make numbers for that do nothing to help the herd.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

This is ridiculous, I read through 5 pages of posts and I still do not see a single set of coordinates of someone asking the simple question!! :lol: 


cssoccer5 said:


> I have hunted the same area for about fifteen years now and have enjoyed EVERY year, not just the years that I get to see the big deer. The first few years I saw very few deer. Then I saw more deer but did not harvest one. After that I started harvesting small deer. Now every year I see at least twenty to thirty bucks a day with a few being big bucks. The area has not changed but my "hunting" methods have.


What would you say are the biggest things that you do differently from the early days?


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

I enjoyed reading this topic, and I do feel like oportinuty is the most important factor when considering game managment. But... I can see how some people are frustrated with he utah deer herd. I grew up hunting in wyoming. I never harvested a deer there. There was lots of opportunity for a big buck and i passed up quite a few small ones. 

I moved to utah for school. I have killed 2 bucks in the 3 years I have hunted, and hopfully I will harvest this season as well. The bucks I killed in utah I would have passed in wyoming. It has taken me 3 years of being a utahn to find a few areas that have decent bucks (24+) and last year I found what I think is a really great spot. Lots of bucks and a couple that were real trophies. 

This spot was about 3 hours from where I was living.... that is a a pretty big time and money investment to travel to. If people want to put in the time, they can have some decent hunting general season in utah. I am in the dedicated hunter program by the way.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Somebody asked for tips. I'm a rookie, but have become better at at least finding decent deer on a consistent basis. The tip I would offer relates to scouting, but also to hunting especially in the late morning or afternoon hours. 

Learn how to find bedded deer.

Personally, I believe a lot of my hunting/scouting success is coming about because I am learning to find them sitting down. One of the things that makes bow hunters successful is just as applicable to rifle and muzz (if not more because IMO the deer are much more mobile/easily spooked in those seasons) and it's patience. I think rifle hunting quickly becomes stream fishing. Fish a ridge or opening and if you see nothing, move on and try the next. Well, the thing is, I'm beginning to take a bit longer to sit and really pick apart a large drainage before making my way through it. I love stream fishing, and I love to hunt all over the mountain, but in the process of it all I get a better feel for where the deer are and like to be. Once you figure that out you need to pick it apart with optics, and take great care on stalk type hunting or approaching any area as none of our eyes are getting any better. 

Nope, I'm not old either, not really old anyway. I see ok, but last year I watched a buck go into a new drainage. We chose a route that would put us above his likely path and we carefully made our way over and immediately sat down. We eventually saw him and had another opportunity. While we waited there for an hour in pretty ugly weather we were able to pick out 5 other bucks (not big) that were in sight the entire time, but we didn't see them until we had sat there for at least 30 minutes. Anyway, I've killed one buck in his bed - well, OK, I missed and then he stood up and I got him. Or, at least on the next shot I got him. Anyway (not the greatest shooter out there  ) it was a pretty cool experience to get one in his bed. I think that is my small piece of advice that is most useful. 

BTW- I also think the old school way of just going to a spot where terrain, clearing, and timber cross is one of the funnest ways to rfle hunt. I love opening mornings where you just old school it where grandpa did and wait for others to push things around. Also fun, and it involves the right kind of patience without exactly knowing that deer are around, but trusting in previous experience.


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## cssoccer5 (Feb 24, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> What would you say are the biggest things that you do differently from the early days?


I think the biggest difference is the fact that I have learned to look more and move less. Even the quietest person in the world can not sneak on a deer that they don't know is there. I also have learned to look small. Instead of looking for a deer, I look for pieces. Spikes and two points stand out in the open, but the bigger bucks use trees, shrubs, shadows and so forth. I know this is common info and probably most hunters already do it, but it made a huge difference for me.

By the way, good luck this weekend to all who get out and enjoy the wildlife.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

cssoccer5 said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> > What would you say are the biggest things that you do differently from the early days?
> ...


Agreed... before, I'd have hiked up mid day and wondered how come I never saw any deer. Now, I have learned to leave early, get up while the deer are still feeding, glass the basins while the sun peeks over the tops and chases deer to their beds. Its amazing the things you see when you are up with the critters and sitting still letting your binos do the walking for you. I do a lot of hiking, but I do it before dark getting to places where I glass several different basins where I know I can find deer, lots of em and usually some good quality bucks to keep an eye on. I'm hoping I can close the distance on a quality buck this year (at this point, that would be any buck to get me started) and enjoy the experience, the memory and the venison until I hunt again next year. 8)


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

Be careful with walking in the dark. I have seen more times people actully push the deer out by thinking they are sneaking up on them in the dark. I have found it is better to wait a few min and walk when you can see. At least with a rifle that is.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> Be careful with walking in the dark. I have seen more times people actully push the deer out by thinking they are sneaking up on them in the dark. I have found it is better to wait a few min and walk when you can see. At least with a rifle that is.


I could see that. I thought you were going to say something about being cougar food. :lol: Where I go or have gone before, I come to a point and the basin opens up in front of me which is where I see the deer. I don't hunt the area that I walk through on my way to the vantage point, although I have had deer walk out behind me as I make my way up the mountain.... kinda funny that I just walked through an area and then glassing, see deer using some of the same trails. I do hunt with a bow and have gotten my one man camping setup pretty well completed so there may be some multiple day trips in my next weekend or three which might eliminate walking out some of the deer.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> And after all of that hunting and hiking, he had threatening messages posted on his truck. :mrgreen:


Anti-hunter scumbags. If I ever get my hands on whoever left those... -#&#*!-

So, are there really hunters in Utah that are dissatisfied with the hunt? I thought that's what we were discussing :?:

I have offered my opinions on what could be done to satisfy MORE hunters. Not to satisfy myself, because I feel a lot like Tree. I love the deer hunt. I don't see other hunters and I see big bucks. But the fact is that there are thousands of hunters in Utah that aren't satisfied. Meat hunters and trophy hunters have nothing to complain about, so which group isn't getting any love? It's the 'tweeners. I know their sentiments well. Its frustrating when you're trying to hold out for a 3 or 4 point, passing up several 2-points each year, only to have those bucks killed when they walk over the ridge.

PRO, I'm happy to disagree with you on a few things, but are you sure I can't convince you that its bad to kill baby deer? :mrgreen:


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

El Matador the "tweeners" need to crap or get of the pot if you know what I mean.

General season is what it is. Lots of hunters in large areas competing for bucks that are in the 15-20/100 buck doe ratios. This forces you to either enjoy shooting small bucks with the occasional sighting of a medium size buck....or....figure out how and where to find mature bucks.

General season has been there to give hunters ANNUAL opportunities at hunting. What the "tweeners" want is annual limited entry type opportunities and it just can't be done

Be happy with young buckies or figure out the big bucks but please, pick a side of the fence and just enjoy hunting and the process we all go through as we evolve as hunters.


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## mulepacker (Sep 11, 2007)

I believe listening (hearing) is the most important. Not in the woods but in the circles you frequent.

This thread is a prime example, what I believe to be the two most important factors in killing big bucks have been presented here. Did you hear them? Most important do you have the fortitude to apply them.

The hardest thing for me to overcome was being comfortable in the dark alone. Once I conquered that simple fear I became more productive. Now rather than heading back to camp I may spend all night under a tree waiting for the chance of a lifetime at first light.

Fred Bear once said. A hunter on the move will see lots of game, A hunter that sits in wait will kill lots of game. (summarized)

I thought a lot about this thread last night. I summized that maybe the lack of big bucks has less to do with deer numbers than most think. I don't think season length or timing is a factor and I don't even know if loss of habitat is the cause. I believe that if we truly wanted to bring back large numbers of big bucls we would set the clock back 30 plus years on technology. Would you be willing to give up electronics, mobility, optics, fabrics, boots, etc. that we take for granted today but that have definetly allowed folks with less talent and fortitude to become successful hunters. That simple fact may have played more into the loss of older age class bucks than the other factors. It seems that the woodsmanship skills that once were a must to even hunt have been replaced by technological advancement. Put a Winchester Model 94 30-30 or a Damon Howatt recurve back in the hands of most hunters and few will be killing any bucks.


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## mulepacker (Sep 11, 2007)

I believe listening (hearing) is the most important. Not in the woods but in the circles you frequent.

This thread is a prime example, what I believe to be the two most important factors in killing big bucks have been presented here. Did you hear them? Most important do you have the fortitude to apply them.

The hardest thing for me to overcome was being comfortable in the dark alone. Once I conquered that simple fear I became more productive. Now rather than heading back to camp I may spend all night under a tree waiting for the chance of a lifetime at first light.

Fred Bear once said. A hunter on the move will see lots of game, A hunter that sits in wait will kill lots of game. (summarized)

I thought a lot about this thread last night. I summized that maybe the lack of big bucks has less to do with deer numbers than most think. I don't think season length or timing is a factor and I don't even know if loss of habitat is the cause. I believe that if we truly wanted to bring back large numbers of big bucls we would set the clock back 30 plus years on technology. Would you be willing to give up electronics, mobility, optics, fabrics, boots, etc. that we take for granted today but that have definetly allowed folks with less talent and fortitude to become successful hunters. That simple fact may have played more into the loss of older age class bucks than the other factors. It seems that the woodsmanship skills that once were a must to even hunt have been replaced by technological advancement. Put a Winchester Model 94 30-30 or a Damon Howatt recurve back in the hands of most hunters and few will be killing any bucks.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Similar to what many have said on hear.....Go where most hunters don't want to go (off the beaten path) and glass until your eyes hurt. In the Northern region this often means getting up around 9,000 to *10,000ft.* in elevation.

I used to not even carry binos on the rifle hunt and just looked at things through my 3x9 scope. As a said earlier, the trophy hunters I started hunting with ALWAYS had binos with bino buddies and constantly were looking through them.

Often times finding a good buck on a hillside far away will not equate into an opportunity at him that day but rather will help you start to understand where they are, where they came from, what time they are there, and where they go.

Obtaining this knowledge the last few years has helped me to know where to go without having to do as much "pre-season" scouting. I have a few draws, saddles, ridges... where I consistantly see bucks.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

Mulepacker
That is a very intersting idea. I think you are on to something with the whole technology thing.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

Ok, so I will admit, my reply is for completely selfish reasons. But If you impose restrictions to limit the harvest of yearlings, in the end won't you really just be breeding a better hunter? By that I mean, if you restrict the harvest, the hunters are going to be forced to adapt to the new game. Which means they're gonna have to get out of the truck or off of the four wheeler and actually walk a ways. :shock: And eventually some of them are going to walk quite a ways, which puts them back in my lap.  I've really enjoyed the fact that on public land, general season hunts I've still been able to find honey holes, by going into places that only a mad man would want to harvest a buck in. :mrgreen: And rarely if ever do I run into anyone else in these spots. You change the rules on the game, and you're going to going to start educating these hunters to what a few of us know. And then they're going to start hunting "my" bucks -)O(- NOOOOOOO!!!!!

(oh and Mulepacker, my last buck was in in fact taken with a winchester 94 30-30 that belonged to my grandfather, and used for sentimental reasons. I just thought it was funny that you had mentioned that particular gun, because while it wasn't my biggest buck ever it was definitely the most rewarding)


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

great post wasatch. I certainly agree with you. There are already plenty of people starting to make the effort to find the bigger bucks because of sites like this one. You start showing all of these great bucks every year on these sites and a certain amount of people are going to start looking for them. As humans we can be very adaptive with a little incentive. Thank goodness most aren't as driven as me or some of the others around hear. Every year it is funny to see how fast the crowds die off in great areas because people give up.


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