# Another Trespasser - Poacher



## Mathis (Aug 27, 2013)

Well, where to start....

This past weekend I was up at our property and saw a guy driving his truck down the road with a spaniel running along his truck. i asked the guy "what you hunting." He stated, "Grouse." It took a lot to restrain myself with that comment. I told him he better not be on my land doing that... He still asked, 
" can i run my dogs on your land?" I said NO and asked him why he is hunting grouse out of season and why he is trespassing. He said "i can run my dog on the road." He is correct on that. The road is public but the land on each side is private. i called Sgt Stacy and Lt Jay to inform them...so the wardens know.

sorry for the rant... just plain frustrated with these idiots. I hope and pray this is not the new "norm"


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Not sure I am on board with ya on this one--to a lot of folks the term "hunt' means to pursue and not necessarily to kill. If the guy was training his dogs on grouse he could be hunting grouse in a sense to find them and train his dog but not to kill them. Did he have a gun with him? Did you ask him if he was killing them? Did you see any dead grouse in his possession?

You said that the dog was running on the road so really you didn't observe him or his dog trespassing and you didn't say that you observed him killing or attempting to kill protected game. Without those actions being observed by you I don't know that I would call the guy a trespasser-poacher-idiot. 

Maybe I am missing something but if you saw some sort of law breaking and reported it then I think ole Sgt Stacy and Lt Jay would be on the case. Maybe you can send me their phone numbers so I can turn in the neighbor kids when they are chasing robins off my lawn with sticks.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Mathis said:


> Well, where to start....
> 
> This past weekend I was up at our property and saw a guy driving his truck down the road with a spaniel running along his truck. i asked the guy "what you hunting." He stated, "Grouse." It took a lot to restrain myself with that comment. I told him he better not be on my land doing that... He still asked,
> " can i run my dogs on your land?" I said NO and asked him why he is hunting grouse out of season and why he is trespassing. He said "i can run my dog on the road." He is correct on that. The road is public but the land on each side is private. i called Sgt Stacy and Lt Jay to inform them...so the wardens know.
> ...


Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting your story.

.


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

I took my dog out two weekends ago to get him keyed up for grouse. It probably looked like I was hunting them. 
If your property is in the mountains and has no "no tresspassing" signs, what is to identify it from any other property?


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> Not sure I am on board with ya on this one--to a lot of folks the term "hunt' means to pursue and not necessarily to kill. If the guy was training his dogs on grouse he could be hunting grouse in a sense to find them and train his dog but not to kill them. Did he have a gun with him? Did you ask him if he was killing them? Did you see any dead grouse in his possession?
> 
> You said that the dog was running on the road so really you didn't observe him or his dog trespassing and you didn't say that you observed him killing or attempting to kill protected game. Without those actions being observed by you I don't know that I would call the guy a trespasser-poacher-idiot.
> 
> Maybe I am missing something but if you saw some sort of law breaking and reported it then I think ole Sgt Stacy and Lt Jay would be on the case. Maybe you can send me their phone numbers so I can turn in the neighbor kids when they are chasing robins off my lawn with sticks.


I agree. "in pursuit" is hunting. Fishrmn will jump on this within the hour and post the regulations.


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## Mathis (Aug 27, 2013)

I not sure I'm on board as well with your reply. Carbon County does not allow sage grouse hunting at all. This individual was far from timber to be "hunting" blues.

Let me clarify. 

All the land is private..only the road is public. You state that "hunt" means to pursue..how do you "pursue" grouse on private land? So you're telling me running dogs on the "road" is a good training technique. I've trained Gordon Setters and i have never run my dogs on the "road." Just because you do not leave the road does not mean your dogs are allowed to.


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## Mathis (Aug 27, 2013)

Yes sir, property is clearly posted.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Airborne said:


> You said that the dog was running on the road so really you didn't observe him or his dog trespassing and you didn't say that you observed him killing or attempting to kill protected game. Without those actions being observed by you I don't know that I would call the guy a trespasser-poacher-idiot.


+1

This sounds more like a landowner who wants to make a public access road private "for his use only". From what was posted, there was nothing illegal about this guys observed behavior.

-DallanC


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## Mathis (Aug 27, 2013)

DallanC said:


> +1
> 
> This sounds more like a landowner who wants to make a public access road private "for his use only". From what was posted, there was nothing illegal about this guys observed behavior.
> 
> -DallanC


That would be a negative on that statement.

I sold the road back in '81 to the BLM to allow access to landlocked public ground. i did not think it was right restrict the public from public land. My family has owned this property for 114 years....our homestead. If I was that way "for his use only" then I would of kept the road private. 
This individual actually had 2 dogs. 1 on the road and 1 off the road. So yes, he was trespassing.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

To be fair. In one of the areas that I spend a ton of time in I see blue grouse year round at low elevation in sage and oak brush, miles from the nearest pine or aspen. And yes, I am very clear on the difference between sage and blue grouse. If he is running his dog off the road on the private property and pursuing or harassing birds in any way that would be against multiple laws and the authorities should have the ability to discern what, if any, laws were being broken in this instance.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Mathis said:


> That would be a negative on that statement.
> 
> I sold the road back in '81 to the BLM to allow access to landlocked public ground. i did not think it was right restrict the public from public land. My family has owned this property for 114 years....our homestead. If I was that way "for his use only" then I would of kept the road private.
> This individual actually had 2 dogs. 1 on the road and 1 off the road. So yes, he was trespassing.


Sorry for your trouble. Sounds like the guy was in the wrong and you did the right thing calling the authorities. Thanks for being willing to allow public access to public land through your property.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

For those who cannot relate to the problems caused by a public road through private property I ask how you would feel if people just randomly walking down your sidewalk were to do any of the following on your front lawn. Taking a dump, littering, parking (on your front lawn) to admire the view or seeing how deep of ruts they can cause with their ATV.

All these happen quite often in the mountains on private property with a public easement even when obviously marked. Law enforcement is hours away. Everybody knows that.

I'm sure it is not any of the 10,446 fine members of this forum that would do this just the other 2 million + people in this state that have no respect for others property.

Mathis it was nice of you not to shoot his dog that was tresspassing.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

middlefork said:


> For those who cannot relate to the problems caused by a public road through private property I ask how you would feel if people just randomly walking down your sidewalk were to do any of the following on your front lawn. Taking a dump, littering, parking (on your front lawn) to admire the view or seeing how deep of ruts they can cause with their ATV.
> 
> All these happen quite often in the mountains on private property with a public easement even when obviously marked. Law enforcement is hours away. Everybody knows that.
> 
> ...


Oh judas flipping priest, the guy was running his dogs along his truck, nothing more. That's just fine if you want to take an absolutist view of private property ownership, facism is apparently live and well. How long does it take to goose step out to the mailbox each day?

My neighbors dog craps on my lawn regularly, the neighborhood kids almost daily leave stuff on my lawn and that damned wind even blows litter onto my lawn. I smile and deal with it because I want to be a good person in this world and I live by the 'no harm, no foul' principle. If the original poster wants to get all torn up because of this non issue then honestly I feel sorry for him. And the handful of other land owners that share his attitude.

But I don't want to disagree with ya too much being that you are new and this is a decent forum, so welcome to the party.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I have a mile of FS road that runs through our property so I get the sentiment. We don't even post.

The issue I would have is with the guys statement of "hunting" grouse. Pursuit is hunting, that's why running bears and cats requires a pursuit permit. Has my dog(have not had one in years) ever flushed birds out of season, sure, but I never intentionally put her on them, or looked to do so. That's what pheasant clubs and pigeons are for.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

This is going well.

Were the dogs flushing dogs? They get so far out in front of the hunter (road hunters too) that I don't think they're hurtin' anything.

.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

I guess I just dont get it. Seems like a guy was running dogs on private ground, if even just a little bit! Also seems like he was "pursuing/hunting" grouse out of season if even just a little bit! Since when do we tolerate even just a little bit of a violation? Lines must be drawn somewhere or what is the point.

Cheddar


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mathis said:


> 1 on the road and 1 off the road. So yes, he was trespassing.


So now he has two dogs? And one WAS on your property? Why didn't you mention that part in your original post? Seems like the more important part of this story.

-DallanC


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

"GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!"

-Mr. Nebbercracker


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

middlefork said:


> For those who cannot relate to the problems caused by a public road through private property I ask how you would feel if people just randomly walking down your sidewalk were to do any of the following on your front lawn. Taking a dump, littering, parking (on your front lawn) to admire the view or seeing how deep of ruts they can cause with their ATV.
> 
> All these happen quite often in the mountains on private property with a public easement even when obviously marked. Law enforcement is hours away. Everybody knows that.
> 
> ...


Good to see that someone gets it! I have experienced similar issues with completely private roads, extremely frustrating! Best of luck PM sent


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## russtman (Sep 28, 2013)

I have friends with ranches in the same area and trespassing is a major problem. Just 
because there is BLM land in the area doesnt mean that we are entitled to just go where ever the eye can see. If the land is posted private property , then it means private property... Clearly he says it is posted and still has a problem with trespassing. I think the poster is just venting on people trespassing as a whole. We should be responsible with land use and have updated maps and GPS's to tell us where we can and can not go, but that would require a level of responsibility that people in this area just dont seem to have. In Texas trespassers get shot. Maybe Texas is on to something.... ha


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Dog on posted property, guy states he's hunting grouse in a place where grouse hunting isn't allowed, and out of season to boot.

Thank you Mathis, for being the best kind of landowner and acting as a steward of the land. Guys like you are the reason I pick up a grocery bag of trash when I have the privilege of using private property.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

1. I thank you for the road rights to public party and applaud you 
2. not sure what the person was doing but his reply of hunting grouse puts him on the Darwin awards list.
3. I run my dogs on a public road with private property on either side. I try my best to keep them both on the road but every once in awhile one will slide under the fence and run a 100 yards along the fence line. When I see it I whistle them back. But if someone was waiting for that to happen and shot one of the dogs- Valdez is coming- make no Mistake about it. .


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## ultramagfan2000 (Nov 27, 2009)

I'm not against training dogs but a few people have asked what the big deal is to train dogs. If I'm not mistaken grouse chicks lose their down and gain their plumage in the end of June into the first couple weeks of July. I know you are training your dogs to point but let's face it some dogs can't contain their excitement and ruff up or kill birds. If chicks can't yet fly how can they get away? I see this very similar to everyone screaming about people hunting sheds early in the year putting undo stress on animals. Next permission was granted in the 80's for use of the road to public ground. Mathis reported what he felt was unusual behavior and advised the guy to keep his dogs off the property. I have dogs and I understand the bond. I also will not let my dogs go crap on another yard. Trespassing is a statewide problem not just Carbon County. I don't own a large piece of land but we have lost many access to some private lands through careless people. I for one applaud Mathis for reporting it.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Packfish,
I'm not sure who Valdez is but that is the exact reason that I do not generaly confront tresspassers or their pets. I figure if they don't have the respect to abide by the rules they just might not have a problem returning when no ones around and vandalizing in retaliation.

And for Airborne, I also consider myself a good neighbor and pick up their dogs mess and don't yell at the the kids on the lawn. But it does tend to wear on me. When it becomes excessive I just might call the authorities.

Really is it that difficult to find some place to run a dog or recreate that isn't someones private property?


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Like I said- I whistle those dogs off immediately and I respect private property rights and I know that I am in the wrong- I rectify it asap. . I am just saying if someone doesn't see that and shoots my dog because they think they have the right to.-------- watch the old show Valdez is Coming.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Packfish said:


> -------- watch the old show Valdez is Coming.


A great old western staring Burt Lancaster, Susan Clark about a person that you don't want to pi$$ off.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

ultramagfan2000 said:


> I'm not against training dogs but a few people have asked what the big deal is to train dogs. If I'm not mistaken grouse chicks lose their down and gain their plumage in the end of June into the first couple weeks of July. I know you are training your dogs to point but let's face it some dogs can't contain their excitement and ruff up or kill birds. If chicks can't yet fly how can they get away? I see this very similar to everyone screaming about people hunting sheds early in the year putting undo stress on animals. Next permission was granted in the 80's for use of the road to public ground. Mathis reported what he felt was unusual behavior and advised the guy to keep his dogs off the property. I have dogs and I understand the bond. I also will not let my dogs go crap on another yard. Trespassing is a statewide problem not just Carbon County. I don't own a large piece of land but we have lost many access to some private lands through careless people. I for one applaud Mathis for reporting it.


The chicks can fly at this point, but every time they get flushed wild and separated, is one more time they are stressed and exposed to potential predation. I think the early shed hunting analogy is spot on. Between birth and late summer is when chick mortality is highest, and "hunting" them would add to this.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Lonetree said:


> The chicks can fly at this point, but every time they get flushed wild and separated, is one more time they are stressed and exposed to potential predation. I think the early shed hunting analogy is spot on. Between birth and late summer is when chick mortality is highest, and "hunting" them would add to this.


Better tell that to the DWR and their wildlife biologists because they sponsor a sage grouse count (using pointing dogs..gasp!) on parker mtn every year that takes place the end of July/first of August. This year I believe it's on August 1st. I have helped with this count for several years along with many many others that care about the sage grouse (not saying u don't). Even with the THOUSANDS of bird contacts over the years I have yet to hear of one grouse getting killed by a dog. Birds are old enough come mid July even a bird bustin crap dog can't catch those young sage grouse.

Go ask anybody who has antelope hunted the Parker, just by driving around you are going to kick up birds--guess we better shut down the mountain :-o. I have antelope hunted it several years (myself & others) and every morning regardless of the year a flock would hit my water hole, drink then fly off together in a similar formation as to when a dog points them. Its amazing they aren't extinct yet--or are they?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Airborne said:


> Better tell that to the DWR and their wildlife biologists because they sponsor a sage grouse count (using pointing dogs..gasp!) on parker mtn every year that takes place the end of July/first of August. This year I believe it's on August 1st. I have helped with this count for several years along with many many others that care about the sage grouse (not saying u don't). Even with the THOUSANDS of bird contacts over the years I have yet to hear of one grouse getting killed by a dog. Birds are old enough come mid July even a bird bustin crap dog can't catch those young sage grouse.
> 
> Go ask anybody who has antelope hunted the Parker, just by driving around you are going to kick up birds--guess we better shut down the mountain :-o. I have antelope hunted it several years (myself & others) and every morning regardless of the year a flock would hit my water hole, drink then fly off together in a similar formation as to when a dog points them. Its amazing they aren't extinct yet--or are they?


Pointing with trained dogs and "training" dogs on grouse are two very different things.

As for being extinct, sage grouse have lost 55% of their population in the last decade.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Lonetree said:


> Pointing with trained dogs and "training" dogs on grouse are two very different things.
> 
> As for being extinct, sage grouse have lost 55% of their population in the last decade.


oh good grief--you don't get trained dogs without 'training' them. Dogs need hundreds of wild bird contacts in order to become trained dogs. Who is on first and what's on second, I think a sage grouse is playing third. For the kids who don't understand what I am saying:





It's a shame that sage grouse numbers have fallen--doubt that guys training dogs had anything to do with it--probably road salt and herbicides. As much as I would love to hijack this thread I must bow out--if there is one thing I have learned from this forum it's to never get in a debate with lonetree--I don't think I have the intestinal fortitude for it.


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

I've seen 2 or 3 week old chukars in September before. Seems too early to be running his dogs on grouse. With all the public land in UT wonder why a guy would feel he's got to run his dogs on private land in July.....


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## jeff788 (Aug 7, 2009)

Check out the last section of:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules-regu...e-birds-in-dog-field-trials-and-training.html

and

http://wildlife.utah.gov/uplandgame/hunting_dogs.html

1. It is legal to train your dog on wild birds in Utah year round
2. The DWR discourages this from April 1st to August 15th to protect nesting birds. It is illegal to catch, kill, or injure birds outside of the proper season. I take that to mean that if your dog catches a chick that cannot fly, you are breaking the law.
3. You cannot have anything but blanks or a legally concealed weapon while running your dog on wild birds unless it is hunting season
4. It is illegal to train your dog on private property without permission

Mathis is correct that the guy was in the wrong for allowing his dogs to run on private property. But there is nothing wrong with running a dog on sage grouse, or any other game bird out of season, or in places like Carbon County where there is no season for sage grouse. You just have to use good judgement, know the birds, and know your dog. I'd guess that most of our game bird chicks are quite capable of flying by now. I've ran my dog on the Parker Mountain sage grouse count several years and there isn't a bird dog alive that can catch one of those sage grouse chicks in early August. That being said, with some species there may be some chicks that hatched late and are still quite small, so if your dog will not hold point until you can assess the situation, you may want to hold off on the wild birds for another month.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

We have given up on the dog training and just decided to start riding the roads more often.


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

jeff788 said:


> 1. It is legal to train your dog on wild birds in Utah year round
> 2. The DWR discourages this from April 1st to August 15th to protect nesting birds. It is illegal to catch, kill, or injure birds outside of the proper season. I take that to mean that if your dog catches a chick that cannot fly, you are breaking the law.
> 3. You cannot have anything but blanks or a legally concealed weapon while running your dog on wild birds unless it is hunting season
> 4. It is illegal to train your dog on private property without permission
> ...


There is nothing "illegal" about running the dogs on birds during the nesting and brooding season. Unless you're doing on private land like in the OP. But it's arguably wrong, if it increases the risk to young birds - which is why the DWR discourages it.


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