# Mossback 2007 Pictures



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

The Mossback site has been updated showing some of the great animals taken by Mossback hunters in 2007 for those who like to see "horn porn".


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

WoooHOOO I have been waiting for them to update it for months.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I even see ole Bart  guiding Mike Stauner  and him guiding Cary Velerio. Awesome bulls Bart. Maybe I can hire you one of these days


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Cary Valerio was "new2this" on the old DWR forum. He took an awesome bull at point blank range with is bow on the tenth day of his hunt. I had a great time chasing big stinky bulls this fall. 8)


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Very cool, they advertise hunting videos are the videos very good?? The primos videos seem real well made, are these about the the same better or worse? Have never shot a bull even close to anything on that page. WOW! :shock:  Dave


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

I much prefer the Primos video series. Better photography and the guys on the Primos videos are always smiling, laughing, and having a great time.
I will never spend another penny on anything from Mossback. 
I hope you have a better experience than I did.


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

The videos are second to none!
I just received the 3 Big game ones (cants remember the name)
I've been asking Doyle to make some moose vids for quite some time, he put them all together (bison, pronghorn, bear, RMG, RMBH) in the volumes, I watched the first last night! AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME!
thanks Doyle!
and thank you too Bart!


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## SingleShot man (Dec 24, 2007)

Not at all familiar with 'Mossback'. Who are these guys and why do they get so much flak?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

SingleShot man said:


> Not at all familiar with 'Mossback'. Who are these guys and why do they get so much flak?


 o-||


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Just loged on and looked the trophy room over. Impressive animals.

This is what I love about Mossback. Under each photo they have:

Gieded by: Doyal Moss. 8) Assisted byherders, chasers, blockers, spotters, camera men, Grip, Key grip, Lighting specialist, Stunt coordinater, coffee boy, wheeler tech, gunsmith, taxidermist, skinners, capers, meat packers, and runners.)

What would all these guys be without a "Gunner" Harassing wildlife I supose... :? 

I love you like a brother Bart, but I still can't stand Mossback. Sorry. :|


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

What is there to hate about Mossback????


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## Justice (Dec 22, 2007)

Tex you sure have some negative thoughts toward anyone successful enough to capture some great hunts on film. My question to you is, who do you like then?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Mossback is some of the honest most hard working people you will ever find. I think Tex-o-bob has just heard a few bad rumors and never really took the time to find out if they were true.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Justice said:


> Tex you sure have some negative thoughts toward anyone successful enough to capture some great hunts on film. My question to you is, who do you like then?


I'll tell you who I like. Dwight Schue, Chuck Adams, Jim Shokey, Larry D. Jones, Ted Fuc*ing Nugent, Will Premos just to name a few. Ya, I know they all have paid money to harvest animals, But they HUNTED for their animals. They did'nt hire a GANG of guys to find, film, herd, block/buy other hunters out, and hogtie an animal to a tree so they could fly in and SHOOT the animal and then be back in the office before lunch.

I don't hate Doyal Moss. I don't know Doyal Moss. He's probably a nice guy. I hate the way Doyal Moss makes a living. I question his Ethics, I question his morals, and I question our fish and game for enabling him by making it legal to "Bounty Hunt" for OUR trophy animals.

I'm NOT the only one who shares these thoughts. Many people think that putting a huge dollar sign on trophy animals will only corrupt the system. And, it ALWAYS will. Period.

As far as the stories about Doyal Moss and his questionable hunting practices... All I can say is, where there is smoke, there is usually fire. I don't know if all the bad storeis are true, but I do know of two storeis regarding this persons hunting practices that ARE true and that bother me greatly.

But alas, As long as our state and special intrest groups enable this to happen it always will. And there is NOTHING any of us can do about it. 

Now, enough about that, lets all just go to Mossbacks web sight and enjoy looking at the fine trophy animals we have in our state. Thank you SFW!!! :twisted:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I'll tell you who I like. Dwight Schue, Chuck Adams, Jim Shokey, Larry D. Jones, Ted Fuc*ing Nugent, Will Premos just to name a few. Ya, I know they all have paid money to harvest animals, But they HUNTED for their animals. They did'nt hire a GANG of guys to find, film, herd, block/buy other hunters out, and hogtie an animal to a tree so they could fly in and SHOOT the animal and then be back in the office before lunch.


A lot these guys hunt on private ranches. Doyle hunts on public land. Doyle doesnt have a Gang of guides and go after just one animal like you are talking about. They dont block the roads like you are saying.



> I don't know Doyal Moss. He's probably a nice guy


You say you dont know Doyle, but yet you are quick to judge him. How can you judge someone that you dont know :shock: :shock:



> As far as the stories about Doyal Moss and his questionable hunting practices... All I can say is, where there is smoke, there is usually fire. I don't know if all the bad storeis are true, but I do know of two storeis regarding this persons hunting practices that ARE true and that bother me greatly.


If these stories are true then how come no one has busted Doyle???? Doyle is one of the most honest person I know, but of course you don't that since you dont know Doyle.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I'll tell you who I like. Dwight Schue, Chuck Adams, Ted Fuc*ing Nugent, Will Primos, David Long, Cameron Hanes just to name a few. Ya, I know they all have paid money to harvest animals, But they HUNTED for their animals.
> 
> I don't hate Doyal Moss. I don't know Doyal Moss.


Sorry Tex, I threw a couple of my own names in there and deleted the two I don't really know all that well (Shockey is a muzzleloading guy right?). I like em for the same reason.... they're guys who do things that I respect, in what I consider to be the "right" way. You know, pretty evenly matched, not totally stacking the deck for video or money's sake. About the second part I copied... I don't know the guy, but I also am way sketchy about things I've heard.... there just is too much stuff that flies around for it to be done without some reason. It sure does make for some long discussions on here and the guy does get some pretty nice animals to lie still though. :lol:


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

I only have one question,I have heard from an unreilable source, That the monster elk taken this year in the photo, The one with the support crew, was taken by four wheelers,radios and hearding the animal? Is this legal and did it happen. First i do not believe you could have a group of professional guides and sportsman, all in on an illegal hunt. It would just grind someone wrong, second mr doyle moss has built a reputation as far as i can tell for taking big bulls and mulies, this was not his first record animal and probably not his last. Someone of this caliber would not risk it all on one hunt, or a string of hunts for that matter. no matter what the animal. Being new to the mossback name i know very little, however i can tell he has done this for years and years. If he was taking animals illegally some one somwhere down the line would have opened their mouths and it would have made it back to the DWR and he would have been investigated. From a laymans persective mr Mossback hires top guides, men that have spent their entire lives dedicated to the outdoors and the wildlife they hunt. The guides have vast amounts of patience and experience to make sure paying clients get the trophy he or she has paid for. The hunts i would guess do have quite a support staff, the best guides always do! Their are stories upon stories about some hunter getting ripped off, his meat spoiling,horses dying,bad food ect,ect, you cannot fault him for having a large staff, that is a plus in my book, however you will be charged accordingly. Mr mossback i would tend to guess will always have a microscope on him because he is so succsessful. Another of the stories i have heard was that a client had drawn a special tag and mr mossback guided him for a special rate because the man was on a tight budget, all mr mossback asked was that he gets rights to showthe bull taken in his video and get credit for guiding the gentelman on the hunt. And much preperation went into the hunt, on the fist morning of the actual hunt the client and guide found the bull that had long been watched, the hunter only packed 1 or 2 cartriges on an unsighted in rifle, (whitch he had previouly swore an oath it was dead on.) and a complete debalce ensued, in whitch require mr mossback sending support crews to wally world to buy ammo and also get the clients rifle sighted in. I do not know the all the little details to this story, but the end result was that the client ended up with a utah number one record book animal, this supposedly took place approx 3 to 4 yrs ago not sure as of the date. the whole while mr doyle was paitent and understanding, like i said i do not know enough to talk intelegently about his business these are just a few of the things i have heard. and some observations of mine. please elighten if i am completely off base. But as far as i can tell if the discretionary funds are avaliable i would defiantly book a hunt with some of this mans guides. With my points that is somthing i am really considering. You wait a long time with the bonus point system, it almost turns out to be twice or three times in your life. shoot hire someone do it right! That as far as i can tell is what Mr Doyle Mossback is all about. Dave


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> If these stories are true then how come no one has busted Doyle????


Nobody has busted him because what Doyle does is not illegal...Yet.



> They dont block the roads like you are saying.


Did I say he blocked roads? NO. But, that is one story I've heard. But that's all it is untill I see it with my own eyes, a STORY.

The two things that happend that I have a problem with HAPPEND. But I'm not going to get into that, It's a wast of my time, and quite frankly I don't give a sh*t anymore.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > I'll tell you who I like. Dwight Schue, Chuck Adams, Ted Fuc*ing Nugent, Will Primos, David Long, Cameron Hanes just to name a few. Ya, I know they all have paid money to harvest animals, But they HUNTED for their animals.
> ...


I left out Tred Barta too. Love him or hate him, he's the MAN!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Sounds like another bash Doyle Moss. How can you say Ted nugent, Will Primos and Jim Shockey do it right when they hunt on private ranches? Jim Shockey has guides when he goes to Alaska and Canada. I like these guys to but to say they do it the "right" way and Doyle does it the "wrong" way is very comical. :lol: :lol: :lol: 

I think most people are jealous because Doyle is able to find these great trophys. Anyone of those bulls could have been killed by the average joe, but a lot of times the average joe isnt willing to put forth hours of scouting and glassing for these great animals and many of the average joe hunters arent willing to hold out for a trophy and many shoot the first bull they see.

Ask Pro how many bulls they pass up during their hunts. How many average joe hunters can even score a bull? Doyle and his guides help people kill great bulls because they pass on smaller bulls until they find that monster.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

O|* :roll: *\-\* 

That is all I have to say on the Mossback 'STORIES'/MYTHS!


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Hey Tex.... Will Primos WON'T do an Elk Hunt WITHOUT a Gang of Guides. Ya better pick another slew of Heros before you start blabbering about not using guides...All those people you named use guides and won't put their livelihood in jepredy by not getting a guide for the areas they hunt...


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I think Tex was drunk on eggnog when he made his statements.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Pro i take it by your post you run this road before? The kind of sucsses you enjoy will never go without contraversy, never has, never will. Do you know any paticulars on the second hunt in my post? that happened 3 or 4 years ago? just curious. do you know a guide named paul phife (spelling could be wrong.) Dave


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

wapiti67 said:


> Hey Tex.... Will Primos WON'T do an Elk Hunt WITHOUT a Gang of Guides. Ya better pick another slew of Heros before you start blabbering about not using guides...All those people you named use guides and won't put their livelihood in jepredy by not getting a guide for the areas they hunt...


Will Primos is about the only one on my list that is big into videos/hunting for money... but you dont hear near the stuff about him and his crew that you'll hear about the Mossback gang, even though they hunt tons of different species of animals over a hunting year. You're also way off on all those other guys depending on guides to get it done because they're worried they can't close the deal without em. Most of the guys I talked about pride themselves on NOT having a guide to get the job done. Thats a big part of the respect most folks have for them. I think they'd probably love to punch you right in the teeth for saying otherwise and the Nuge... well, you probably would just quietly disappear. :lol: My question is.... and this may have happened but I just don't know it. With Mossback charging such high rates for their "success", why aren't any of the big names in the business using them to take trophy animals if thats what they require to protect their reputation? You don't find it odd that Mossback hasn't formed some sort of association with Primos or Eastmans crew if those guys require "gangs of guides" in order to take trophy animals at the risk of their hunting rep being tarnished by taking less than the best on their hunts? Could it be that the sort of thing Mossback is into isn't what these guys need or want to be involved with?? Hopefully thats a little bit thought provoking. :?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Will Primos is about the only one on my list that is big into videos/hunting for money... but you dont hear near the stuff about him and his crew that you'll hear about the Mossback gang, even though they hunt tons of different species of animals over a hunting year. You're also way off on all those other guys depending on guides to get it done because they're worried they can't close the deal without em. Most of the guys I talked about pride themselves on NOT having a guide to get the job done. Thats a big part of the respect most folks have for them. I think they'd probably love to punch you right in the teeth for saying otherwise and the Nuge... well, you probably would just quietly disappear. My question is.... and this may have happened but I just don't know it. With Mossback charging such high rates for their "success", why aren't any of the big names in the business using them to take trophy animals if thats what they require to protect their reputation? You don't find it odd that Mossback hasn't formed some sort of association with Primos or Eastmans crew if those guys require "gangs of guides" in order to take trophy animals at the risk of their hunting rep being tarnished by taking less than the best on their hunts? Could it be that the sort of thing Mossback is into isn't what these guys need or want to be involved with?? Hopefully thats a little bit thought provoking.


If Doyle was to come on this forum then he would sure get a good laugh at all the lies and bashing that people say about him.



> Will Primos is about the only one on my list that is big into videos/hunting for money... but you dont hear near the stuff about him and his crew that you'll hear about the Mossback gang


RiverRat, you need to take a trip to Montrose, Colorado and you will hear the rumors about Will Primos and gang.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> RiverRat, you need to take a trip to Montrose, Colorado and you will hear the rumors about Will Primos and gang.


You're the first person I've heard EVER (and it could just be that I haven't been around long enough to know otherwise) say anything of that sort about Will or his crew.... thats really too bad.  I wasn't even hunting big game yet and I had heard about Mossback... or at least what some bowhunting folks "thought" about them. One of my good friends (and next years archery hunt partner) is good friends with Cameron Hanes. I'll have to have him talk to Cameron about Mossback and see what some of the "pros" think about that whole deal. I'd be willing to bet they'll be complimentary about the size of the animals but won't touch the other stuff.... professionally "keeping their distance" for some reason. 8)


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> You're the first person I've heard EVER (and it could just be that I haven't been around long enough to know otherwise) say anything of that sort about Will or his crew.... thats really too bad.


Do you think its because Doyle is local so its easier to hear the rumors about him? Have you talked to a lot of people out of state about Will Primos? I dont believe the rumors about him, a lot of people dont like him. I know a lot of people from out of state talk very highly of Doyle. Do you think Doyle would risk his guiding business and do many things that is accused of? Of course not.

Why do people get some much heart burn over guides??


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> *Do you think its because Doyle is local *so its easier to hear the rumors about him? Why do people get some much heart burn over guides??


I figure that probably has a lot to do with it and about the heartburn, I figure a lot of it is "smoke" and I don't know any more than that because I personally haven't ever had a run-in with any professional hunters anywhere. I do know we (Mossback crew and I) probably won't ever cross paths, so its kind of a non issue to me. For the rest of the "big names", it seems if you're high profile, its hard to keep from attracting some of that kind of attention.... *-HELP!-*


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Soules, I have met Paul Fife a couple of times, but that was before I was employed with Mossback. I haven't heard your story.

For the others, just to clarify a few things; I KNOW most of the guys mentioned by Tex and Riverrat. I like all of them. FYI, Cameron Hanes and Doyle are friends. :roll: ALL of them with the exception of Cameron hunt almost 100% of the time on private land WITH GUIDES, the nuge rarely, if ever hunts public land. The other FACT missed by many is NONE of them other than Chuck Adams, take animals even close to the caliber of animals Mossback puts on the ground, and Chuck is a heck of a hunter, but he **** sure doesn't hunt 'like' the rest of us.

Riverrat, why would Mossback and Primos 'team up'? They are two of the biggest video makers in the biz, in otherwords, they compete for your dollar, why would either want to tie in, same for Eastman's? They all have hunting videos and hunting shows. To use the fact they don't work together as 'proof' that Mossback is shady is beyond absurd.

As for an outfitter Primos did do biz with, USO and G Talman, you may want to google them and see how 'well-respected' they are among their peers. _(O)_ 

Bottom line, Mossback IS successful, and they operate within the law and FAIR CHASE. They also put more big bucks and bulls on the ground than ANY other outfitter, bar NONE. When you are the BEST in the game, people will be gunning for you, and FALSE rumors will emerge. Tex said, "where there is smoke there is fire", I say, "where there is proof I believe it, where there is NONE, I don't buy it". _O\


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Hey, you've got a point there Pro.... :lol:


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*Give Credit where credit is due*

Guys,

I do not know Doyle personally, however, I think he has put together probably the finest guiding operation in the lower 48. I know personally several of the guides who work for Mossback and they are truly stand up men. There are many out there today that would give all that they have to be in Doyle's shoes. The caliber of animals he provides on a yearly basis is truly amazing. I also know many of the other guiding operation in the state and one in particular that operates out of Pleasant Grove, who I have little to no respect for due to ethical reasons and first hand accounts from his clients, guides and land owners. Doyle, in my opinion is a cut above and I would hope he stays that way.

My personal feeling is that many of us are getting too caught up in the trophy game, as I have been. I have only ever hunted once with a paid guide in Alberta Canada and that was because I could not hunt without a guide. In most causes I have found that my knowledge and expertise on hunting and instinct far exceeds the guides. I have several friends who are professional guides and they have called me when they have drawn permits, because I have, for the most part, been there and done that. To me the hunt is more important than the kill. And the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. I, right now, would give every point I have to my ten year old boy, so that he may have a chance to draw a hunt of a lifetime that we could share together forever. The true trophy is the bonding and experience that I share with my dad and my son.

Bigbr


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Pro, somebody brought up that Primos HAS to have guides to get the elk they do.... Mossback is a guide who seems to have no problem (however they do it) to put clients on big animals. Taking those two factors into consideration, its not that big of a stretch to see Primos utilizing Mossback to get onto trophy quality animals... videos or not. :? So Dwight, David, and the Eastmans spend their time running around on private ranches to get their animals huh? I think you're wrong... yep, I said it. Last I checked, Chucks slam wasn't part of a bunch of private land hunts... and he has taken trophy quality animals. Wasn't one of his elk the world record once upon a time? That seems pretty good trophy quality to me.... Did he use tons of guys on one animal to get there?? I'd guess not. The Nuge has his own land to hunt on.... why would he hunt public ground? Doesn't take away from the fact that he does it all alone... feeding his family with less than trophy animals (although he seems to have no shortage of big animals to put on his walls), spotted, killed, and cleaned all on his own. I gave Mossbacks crew a little credit... nobody has ever proven anything about them, and they do get nice bucks and bulls.... Do I think there is something more to it than that.... yeah, actually, in my gut I'm pretty sure there is more to it than a bunch of guys hounding one animal for one person to go up and shoot.... surely they can't be the only ones on the mountain, so how are they keeping all the other hunters from finding these same animals? How do they keep other hunters from stalking these same animals and spooking them out of the area? I bet its not all as cut and dried as you would have us believe Pro... sorry. I do think there is more to it than we're led to believe... what exactly I couldn't say.... but I'd say its definitely worth checking out a little bit more. 8)


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Chucks slam wasn't part of a bunch of private land hunts... and he has taken trophy quality animals. Wasn't one of his elk the world record once upon a time? That seems pretty good trophy quality to me.... Did he use tons of guys on one animal to get there?? I'd guess not. The Nuge has his own land to hunt on.... why would he hunt public ground? Doesn't take away from the fact that he does it all alone... feeding his family with less than trophy animals (although he seems to have no shortage of big animals to put on his walls), spotted, killed, and cleaned all on his own.


Riverrat, how hard it is to hunt on private land? Ted Nug baits in the deer and YES Chuck Adams hunts a lot of private ranches. They dont compete with the public, but yet you say they are the real hunters :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :shock: :shock: Mossback hunts are all fair chase and they hunt on public land with all the other hunters. The animals aren't herded with helocopters or by men on horseback. Bart and the rest of the guides HUNT for these animals.

Mossback took me on a hunt and there was no helocopters involved. No animals tied to the tree. It was purely hunting.

Riverratt, your gut feeling is even wrong on this one. Everything Mossback does it LEGAL. Doyle would fire a guide if they ever crossed the line.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

1)I acknowledged Chuck has taken some great animals, but that elk that was the world record was taken on PRIVATE LAND. Eastman's hunt at least as much on private as public land.

Primos wouldn't hire Mossback because who would 'own' the footage? :roll: Nugent sits over bait in a treestand on private land, if that is more 'honorable' than being guided on public land, I don't want to be 'honorable'. Out of all the names mentioned, the one I respect the most is Dwight, he does it the 'right' way, but comparing him and Mossback is apples and oranges. One is an outfitter, the other a hunter, of course they will do things differently. People pay Mossback to find, and put the hunters on big animals.

You refer to why does Mossback get all the big animals, that is Not TRUE. In 2006 the biggest buck taken was by the sportsman (DYI) tag hunter, not the Gov tag hunter. In 2005 the biggest elk taken was by a hunter from Lehi that the Gov tag holder was after, but an 'average joe' put the elk down on the opening day. I had a hunter harvest his animal on the last day each of the last two years, and you can bet your arse I NEVER chased people off the big bull that was taken. This may seem arrogant, but it is FACT, most people are not capable of hunting and consistently harvesting the caliber of animals that Mossback puts on the ground, that is why people are willing to pay so much for their services. Am I a 'better' hunter than others on here? Yes and no, some I am some I am not, but I will put up my ability to find/score/harvest trophy elk with anyone, anytime, any place. There are people like epek who I have no doubt can hunt me into the ground on the WF, and I respect that a lot. Many times I wish I could hunt more for myself, but in order to be good at what I do, I rarely get to hunt for 'PRO', 2008 will be different as I will be selfish and hunt for myself with some good friends. 8) 

I will end my part in this re-hashed garbage by saying, until there is PROOF presented, ANYONE who believes the garbage is inane!


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> There are people like epek who I have no doubt can hunt me into the ground on the WF, and I respect that a lot.
> 
> *Little fellar's rule !!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: *
> 
> ...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

.45 said:


> *Just where will that be Pro???   *


Dutton for elk, Wasatch Front for deer! I haven't had a good nights sleep since I found out I WILL be hunting LE elk in 2008. *(u)* *\-\*


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Riverratt, your gut feeling is even wrong on this one. Everything Mossback does it LEGAL. Doyle would fire a guide if they ever crossed the line.


I'll stay my final opinion on this because like Pro says... nobody has proven anything. I think it would be hilarious if somebody ran a camera up with them in the same area these encounters with Mossback seem to be happening. I still think there's more to this than is being let on and about the guys I respect in the "game".... I have my reasons for that and have actually talked to and met some of them, which has gone a long way in the respect area. You're the only one I've ever heard say anything about Primos (they don't seem to have the real ethical issues of some of the other hunting groups) and the rest of the guys and their private ground hunting.... well, I say if you own it, great, hunt it. Baiting is legal in MI, by the way... I looked it up. :shock: Shocker, I know. There just seems to be something squirrelly about having a wad of dudes up chasing one animal or all "helping" out one hunter... especially on public ground. Something just doesn't strike me as right about it but hey, if they aren't busted by somebody.... then they're either really doing it right or we're all really oblivious to something underhanded thats going on during these LE area hunts. 8)


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

Here are my thoughts: We are all preditors, and one of the dynamics of predation is competition. Think about it, the largest and baddest Tom, owns the most territory and mates the most and eats the most, but that does not just simply stop the other Toms from driffting into that same territory and challenging the dominant Tom for an opportunity to have the same happy hunting grounds. The alpha wolf runs the pack, and dictates to every other wolf in the pack who gets what and when. But that does not stop the challenge element from other wolves in the pack from wanting that same status. We are preditors by design, and I feel as though I have earned a certain spot in the chain of command and I see Doyle as a competitor for the quarry which I also seek. Since our tactics for predation mostly come from our own intellect, part of those tactics include trash talking our opponent.  I personally have crawled above that and having been compared to Cameron Haynes, I feel that I lead my own pack, and will do just fine hunting where and as I hunt with out worrying about what the Doyle Moss pack, or the Cameron Haynes pack, or the Eastman pack are doing, until that day that they drift into my territory and compete for the exact same quarry as I am. Then, I feel, that instead of using cheap tactics of blocking them out of my territory, or any other tactic, I will compete head on, and use my skills to down the quarry on my own merit and feel good that I out witted the other pack, or concede that they out witted me if all I have is the ability to help them pack out the downed quarry. I would hope that they would employ the same courtesy. I have heard that it is possible that they don't, thus the frustrations mentioned in this thread.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Wasatch Front for deer


Pro you hunt deer. Never knew you had it in ya. We all know though there are no big deer on the front.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I guess that I need to say something here as well. I think that it is a shame that a guy who does a post simply stating that he is involved with a group that he is proud of and they have some wonderful pictures available for the viewing of his fellow "sportsman" and feels they would enjoy them, gets beat up for 5 pages. Just enjoy the dang photo's and keep the rest of the thoughts inside. 

Thanx Pro for the update on the last years hunts.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> > Wasatch Front for deer
> 
> 
> Pro you hunt deer. Never knew you had it in ya. We all know though there are no big deer on the front.


I haven't since 2001, but I am looking forward to it. Deer don't get me as excited as elk, but since I am doing 'my' thing in 2008, I figured WTH.

elk22, thanks. 8) I didn't start this thread to show off 'my' critters, but some awesome animals that have come out of Utah in 2007. I believe Utah has far and away the best elk hunting for monsters in the world, and I believe the deer hunting for monsters is right there with anywhere. This is one of the MANY reasons why I don't post pictures on here. I have some I could 'show off', but I prefer to just 'show them off' to friends in person, rather than here where people will try and take away from the experience(s) I have enjoyed over the years.


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

thanks for the info bart missed seeing you at the shoots over the last couple of weeks but glad to here the new pics are in one of these days i ll kill a big bull are a big buck and than someone will have something negative to say about me also lol :shock: :shock: :shock:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

mack1950 said:


> thanks for the info bart missed seeing you at the shoots over the last couple of weeks but glad to here the new pics are in one of these days i ll kill a big bull are a big buck and than someone will have something negative to say about me also lol :shock: :shock: :shock:


Work has been brutal the last few weeks, making it hard to get to archery by 7:00 pm.

I and another forum member will be going on a great elk hunt in the fall, he may but I will NOT be posting pictures of it. _(O)_


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I and another forum member will be going on a great elk hunt in the fall, he may but I will NOT be posting pictures of it. _(O)_


That sucks I would like to see it when you pull him down. Can you call and shoot at the same time?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

truemule said:


> Can you call and shoot at the same time?


Yes. 8) It will be on video, and there will be pictures taken. They just won't be posted here.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Bart, you will have to post a picture of your elk like my moose.

I think there are some great bulls on that site. Amazing what can be grown when there is such limited hunting pressure. As for the other posts, I would say most of Utah's Limited Entry hunts are akin to private land, maybe even easier. So few tags makes most limited entry hunts a "shopping" selection hunt. The Mossback threads have been beat up one side and down the other. No reason to argue them out again on the net.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Mike, is that a picture of your moose? :?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Why yes it is Bart. And here is another one. I hope to see your fine bull gracing the pages of this site just like my moose.....


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

-BaHa!- :rotfl: *OOO* <<--O/


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I never noticed how blue your eyes were. :shock:


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Look at the mass on that... oh wait, thats your hand on a branch....


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Hes soooo wide he doesnt even fit the picture hahaha.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

The last time I looked at Mossbacks website, the photo of the 443 bull had about 9 or 10 people in it. What happened, and who were those people? They weren't guides because Coyoteslayer says Mossback doesn't use a gang of guides to go after one animal. :roll:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> The last time I looked at Mossbacks website, the photo of the 443 bull had about 9 or 10 people in it. What happened, and who were those people? They weren't guides because Coyoteslayer says Mossback doesn't use a gang of guides to go after one animal.


Why does this cause some much heartburn amongst hunters???? When I draw an elk tag then I will have my 4 brothers there and I will call them the "band of brothers" My dad will be there. Maybe Bart will be there if he isnt busy guiding. A few friends will be there to also enjoy the hunt for one animal. WHY would this be any different than a gang of guides?

Blackdog, most pictures are with two guides. That bull that scored 443 was taken out of a tree stand with a bow. The guides didnt put a bridle on the elk and lead him pass the tree stand. They didnt have buckets of grain in their hands to hoax that big bad bull over to the tree. The guides weren't chasing other people off the bull.

I mean who wouldnt want to be on that type of hunt with that caliber of bull.

Blackdog, when you have LE elk tag are you going to hunt alone or are you going to have a "gang of friends" to enjoy the moment with?


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## Justice (Dec 22, 2007)

I just watched primos on the outdoor channel. They were hunting whitetail's... looked like private property to me. After the shot when the hunter was on the way to the buck I counted 7 people including primos himself. 

I am not sure how many people it takes to be considered gang hunting?


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

Growing on a theme, I am going to defend Mossback and share what I have learned and strongly believe. Since the beginning of time these facts have existed. Man has needed nutrition in order to live, thus in order to 'survive', man has had to figure out a way to get and always have food. We were born just like any other animal, we are physically made up with a need to be proactive, or we would not survive, we would die. With the current system in place it is not imparative that we hunt in order to survive, but it is imparative that we rely on farmers and ranchers to provide nutrition or again, we would die. All ranching is is a meathod of hunting, it is called herding. That was one of the meathods that was created thru intillect of man to provide. Other meathods involved setting traps, creating weapons and figuring out a way to utilize those weapons, in other words, get close enough to effectivly deploy our weapon into quarry for a kill, retrieval, and then prepare and consume the needed nutrition. It has always been in humans makeup to be a preditor, and all we were given as a weapon for predation was our intillect. Lions were given stealth and claws and fangs and unretractable meathods of latching on etc... Wolves were given the meathod of pack hunting, and every animal that was dependent upon the principle of predation was given a meathod in order to achieve their needs. We were given simply our mental ability to figure out how to get food chain needs into our system, and from suppliments to herding and slaughtering to planting and harvesting, we have evolved to current conditions, but we have never not been a preditor with predation mentality and meathods for accomplishing a way to achieve our needs. So when you plug in modern day hunting, you have a group of enthusiasts that coddle our inherant desire for predation. Given that ours and others innovations have given us more effective weapons, and meathods for utilizing those weapons, all Mossback and simlar groups have done is invent and execute meathods to use superior intillect and take advantage of the opportunity with in the set laws that regulate fair chase and ethical kills of trophy game. Things have changed over the years, and the existing hunting opportunities that do exist are simply there for two reasons: Reason #1 is to manage and preserve wildlife and reason #2 is to provide man, who was born to be the dominant preditor, the opportunity to keep our preditory skills honed and preserved. The beauty of the existing conditions is that we can choose any meathod with in the laws we personally find more appealing to our own desires. I choose to hunt alone, and when I am with others, I find myself acting more as a guide than a hunter. I do love to spot and stalk game and get my brother on that game with radio contact. I really do enjoy that meathod, so that is the one I employ. When I feel it is my turn to close the distance, I prefer to be alone and use my own stealth to get the job done and I can say that this is my favorite way to do what I do and thus my choice, thus my previous mention of Cameron Haynes and the fact that I have been compared to him only refers to my meathod of hunting not my ability camparred to his. I can easily see why others who do not see themselves as successful by themselves would want to up the odds and hire a group to combine intellect and that is why they chose that meathod, it is simply that, another meathod and no one who understands this should be offended by them employing this meathod. I will add that I think the disdain comes in when those that do not understand this dynamic see the 'gloating' that could be misconstrued from the pictures and the huge animal after huge animal that is downed by this meathod and think that this dominant preditor meathod is offensive because it is so effective. But it is not near as effective as the rancher that breeds his own quarry and herds them in corrals and then leads them to the slaughter house, now that is an effective meathod of predation.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

:shock: Wow! I didn't know you paid attention in college long enough to get a philosophy major! That's impressive my freind.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

That is a pretty good analogy epek! I never considered my growing up on a ranch as being the ultimate predator. :twisted:


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> I guess that I need to say something here as well. I think that it is a shame that a guy who does a post simply stating that he is involved with a group that he is proud of and they have some wonderful pictures available for the viewing of his fellow "sportsman" and feels they would enjoy them, gets beat up for 5 pages. Just enjoy the dang photo's and keep the rest of the thoughts inside.
> 
> Thanx Pro for the update on the last years hunts.


+1

Thanks for letting us know about the pics, until there is proof of wrong doing I have no beef with the guy.


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

I don't understand the "Moss-bashing" that is always happening on these sights. It seems reasonable that if Doyle Moss or anyone that worked for him had done something illegal or even unethical there would be proof (Pictures, DWR investigation, etc&#8230;.) the word AND EVIDENCE would spread like wildfire. From what I understand the "Moss Pack" (Thanks EPEK for the analogy) guides/hunts limited entry units. So it would be safe to assume that the hunters sending up the smoke signals about run ins they have had with the "Moss Pack" were also hunting limited entry units. Who goes on the hunt of a life time on one of these units without a camera? If someone were blocking off a road or telling you to leave an area or any of the other accusations that have been thrown out, wouldn't you take a picture or call the DWR or something? I guarantee if that happened to me, I would have video footage to the DWR and if they wouldn't listen I'd be off to *eyewitness* news in time for the 5:00 news.

I do believe it's, Innocent until PROVEN guilty. We are talking about a man's reputation and living. Some people may say that its harmless chatter on the internet but the reality is it could harms people's perception of him and word of mouth is the most powerful form of advertising therefore they will not hire him or purchase his videos. I say until you have proof-and I have never seen any-you should probably keep your opinion to yourself. I am sure if you were in his shoes you would want the benefit of the doubt.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Mountain time,
I am not backing Mossback by any means but let me give you a little background. We are all hunters. We are not all on the same page. Some are SFW haters. The same group of people happen to be Mossback haters. They do not like that SFW has helped create many big animals in the state. They don't like that Mossback makes money on Hunting or what they call "pimping" those big animals. He has done nothing illegal that I am aware of. He has been accused of parking on a road so no one else can get by to where he is hunting. I think that he parks in the middle because of all of the guys who used to just drive BY his truck to where he was hunting as they wouldn't respect that someone was allready there and would ruin his hunt. He has done some questionable things like offer a guy $10,000 to not shoot a certain deer so his client could shoot it. He has hired guys all over the state to report any findings of huge deer or elk and he would pay them to get footage of it and stay with it as to it's whereabouts. Some don't agree that hunting should be paid for and that it's not right to involve many people. The guy who is doing all of the scouting is getting the hunt and the guy paying the money and having his name in the record book is more of a shooter than a hunter. That bothers some. 
Now the other group of people like SFW because of the big animals in the state. Not all are Moss lovers but not haters either. They believe that Moss is making an honest living and using his recources to help in that living. He has very wealthy clients and they like to shoot big animals for major amounts of money. He doesn't have a problem with them throwing money around and does not feel that it's pimping but working with big results. 

There you have it from one that is not on either side.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> He has done some questionable things like offer a guy $10,000 to not shoot a certain deer so his client could shoot it.


Doyle was in Nevada guiding when this was going on. Doc Meyers offered the $10,000 to not shoot it. Doyle got blamed for it and he wasnt even there. How funny is that???


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > He has done some questionable things like offer a guy $10,000 to not shoot a certain deer so his client could shoot it.
> 
> 
> Doyle was in Nevada guiding when this was going on. Doc Meyers offered the $10,000 to not shoot it. Doyle got blamed for it and he wasnt even there. How funny is that???


No, didnt Doc Meyers tell the Mossback organization to offer the ten grand? How did Doc Meyers find out someone else besides him was looking to shoot the buck? I'll tell you how, someone in the Mossback camp TOLD him. Be it middle man or direct source to the bribe, Mossback WAS INVOLVED. And no, that's NOT funny. OH, and it's not illegal either. :roll:

If that aint "PIMPIN" I don't know what is.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> If that aint "PIMPIN" I don't know what is.


I hope to find an elk big enough this summer to be offered $10,000 not to shoot it. That way I will know he is big enough to let the air out of with one of my muzzy tipped Gold Tips. :mrgreen:

I have had my health threatened by locals for harvesting 'their' bull, I don't believe money was a factor in the situation. :? Hunting, any method, brings out the true character of people, it doesn't change ones character, it merely exposes ones strengths/weaknesses. I am of the opinion money has little to do with it. Fame and the in-bred desire to be, as epek put it, the dominate predator, are bigger factors in how people behave in the hills. I have seen God-awful behavior from people with no monetary motives, and I have been with people will lots to gain act the 'right' way even at the expense of 'profits'. My actions in the field are dictated by my ethics/principles, not how big of a tip I will receive.


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> That is a pretty good analogy epek! I never considered my growing up on a ranch as being the ultimate predator. :twisted:


So what you are saying is that if coyotes were to figure out a way to herd up a bunch of sheep and corral them and then lead them into a shoot and eat one a day, and let them breed and not eat the young ones, but let them grow up until they were fat enough to meet their standards of consumption and then before they ate them they figured out a way to utilize their wool for warmth and literally became a coyote in sheeps clothing, would they not still be considered a preditor?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> No, didnt Doc Meyers tell the Mossback organization to offer the ten grand? How did Doc Meyers find out someone else besides him was looking to shoot the buck? I'll tell you how, someone in the Mossback camp TOLD him. Be it middle man or direct source to the bribe, Mossback WAS INVOLVED. And no, that's NOT funny. OH, and it's not illegal either.


No, Doc Meyers was right there and he is the one who offered the $10,000 since he is the man with the money. It would have turned into a race to the top so Mossback backed off.

I have talked with Mark Hogan (the man who killed the buck) and mossback. Mark Hogan is a good friend of mine and his son is also in a wheelchair. SFW bought Mark Hogan's son Kyle Hogan a Bookcliffs tag this year because Mark let them display his bucks in the SFW shows.

Personality I would have taken the $10,000 and still killed and whopper and then bought two landowner tags, but Mark still made out alright since SFW bought a landowner tag in the Bookcliffs and Kyle shot a great deer!!!!


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

I am not quite sure the offering of money not to hunt a certain animal is illegal, maybe a bit strange, Unless the doc you all speak of has a paticular place on his wall just perfect for that buck. He may have considered it an investestment like furniture, thats the paticular piece he wanted. but with more people after the deer the better the competion and the more he would have enjoyed the animal in the end. 10,000, sorry guys, with three kids, i load the wallet and head for a new area, shoot a nice buck and find a good rate on a cd(certificate of deposit, not compact disc.) and keep my mouth shut. and pray that the good doc fills his tag with that very buck. Would be like winning a small lottery, as it has been pointed out a number of times, trophy animals in utah are on the rise you will get another chance and maybe some will be their to give another ten grand >  -()/>-


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

elkhunter22- You made some good points.



Elkhunter22 said:


> The guy who is doing all of the scouting is getting the hunt and the guy paying the money and having his name in the record book is more of a shooter than a hunter.


I tend to agree with this perspective however I personally don't see anything "wrong" with it. If someone wants to pay someone $xxxxx to find them a bull/buck I don't see a problem with that. Do they deserve as much credit as someone who did it all on their own, probably not. But it could depend on how much leg work they (the 'client') did on their own prior to and during the hunt, only they know that. I personally find it more rewarding and challenging to put in the leg work in myself, but then again I do hunt with friends.....so am I really a DIY hunter. Not in the purest sense....but I am ok with that.



Elkhunter22 said:


> He has done some questionable things like offer a guy $10,000 to not shoot a certain deer so his client could shoot it.


Questionable? Maybe. However I can think of worse things that have happened to me in the field. Last fall while bowhunting a friend and I were sitting about 150 yards above a small 3 point for about 1/2 hour. We were glassing for other deer and waiting to see where he would go. Several guys came into the area above us, they saw us and then saw the buck down below. One of them takes off almost running down the ridge to our left and then cut across at the buck-obviously blowing it out of the country. We weren't really going after that buck but they didn't know that. We were there first, we were in a better position and the deer were unaware of our presence. I would say that's much worse when it comes to Ethics. I would never do that to another hunter. I wish he would have offered me $10 to go after the buck and I would have let him-(Truthfully if they had approached in respectful way we would have helped them get in on the buck-for free.) Not a big deal because he wasn't a trophy buck but if he were.....

Point is, even if the Mosspack offered the guy $10,000 not to shoot the buck they at least showed respect for the guys right to hunt the buck and apparently he was in a better position to harvest the animal. Or like coyoteslayer said, it would have turned into a race and more than likely blown the chance for either of them. Thinking about it that way I just gained a little respect for the mosspack.



elkhunter22 said:


> He has been accused of parking on a road so no one else can get by to where he is hunting. I think that he parks in the middle because of all of the guys who used to just drive BY his truck to where he was hunting as they wouldn't respect that someone was allready there and would ruin his hunt.


IF he or his crew were doing this, that would be flat out illegal, wrong and unethical in my book, regardless of the reason. It seems to me that if this had happened that someone would have pictures or something.....escpecially if it happened as much as we here about it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> IF he or his crew were doing this, that would be flat out illegal, wrong and unethical in my book, regardless of the reason. It seems to me that if this had happened that someone would have pictures or something.....escpecially if it happened as much as we here about it.


Doyle doesn't even take his truck on the mountain because he knows there are dipwads who will either vandalize it, or try and get into where he is and either mess up the hunt or try and shoot the animal first. Trust me, this crap happens every year. I have had 'DIY' hunters follow my truck around watching to see where I go in, then the next day when I go back to the area, guess who is already there? :evil: Bad behavior from any hunter is/should be unacceptable by the hunting community, regardless if they are locals/guides/out of staters.

I am not nearly as concerned about a hunter offering $10,000 dollars to let an animal walk as I am of 'hunters' running someone through the 'mud' w/o an ounce of PROOF. But, that is just me. 8)


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Why arent we talking about the great bulls and bucks that were killed. They make me excited for next years hunt. Instead we have lowlife people who bash someone they dont personally know.

Every year its the same. Bash Mossback because they are successful. People need to get a life


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I played cards with Doyle one night, caught him cheating, if that tells you anything. 8)


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

Hogan said:


> I played cards with Doyle one night, caught him cheating, if that tells you anything.


Now that's funny!!

Are you sure he was playing cards or did he pay someone to play cards for him? If it was him did he offer you $10,000 to NOT play the next hand? :lol:  jk


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## Bullcrazy (Dec 28, 2007)

> I have had my health threatened by locals for harvesting 'their' bull, I don't believe money was a factor in the situation. :? Hunting, any method, brings out the true character of people, it doesn't change ones character, it merely exposes ones strengths/weaknesses.


Pro,
Do you have PROOF of locals threating your health? I know you boys carry a camera. Maybe you could do a locals gone wild 1. Seems a couple years ago the same locals helped you out when your health was not so good.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Bullcrazy said:


> Pro,
> Do you have PROOF of locals threating your health? I know you boys carry a camera. Maybe you could do a locals gone wild 1. Seems a couple years ago the same locals helped you out when your health was not so good.


No video footage, but I did have a good talk with the Sheriff about it.

The locals that helped out were different locals. I have made some very good friends done there over the years, and I seem to run into good folks who helped keep me alive every trip down there, from Search and Rescue to the dispatcher, to the Sheriff (at least he was the sheriff at the time, but not now). I will forever be grateful to those who kept me alive. I am not sure I know you, do I? My intent was/is not to make people from my 'second home' look bad, but to show how people are good/bad, not based on where they live or whether they are DYI, guided hunters, guides. I get tired of stories about a specific REAL person w/o proof. If you notice I have NOT mentioned any names. The only people who know their names are me, the former sheriff, and those who made the threats. I'll gladly keep it that way. 8)


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## Bullcrazy (Dec 28, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> > No video footage, but I did have a good talk with the Sheriff about it.
> >
> > The locals that helped out were different locals. I have made some very good friends done there over the years, and I seem to run into good folks who helped keep me alive every trip down there, from Search and Rescue to the dispatcher, to the Sheriff (at least he was the sheriff at the time, but not now). I will forever be grateful to those who kept me alive. I am not sure I know you, do I? My intent was/is not to make people from my 'second home' look bad, but to show how people are good/bad, not based on where they live or whether they are DYI, guided hunters, guides. I get tired of stories about a specific REAL person w/o proof. If you notice I have NOT mentioned any names. The only people who know their names are me, the former sheriff, and those who made the threats. I'll gladly keep it that way. 8)


Pro,
No you don't know me, I just know about your accident and know alot of the guy's that helped out. I understand the point you were trying to make. Just don't like all us locals being lumped in with a few jerks.

Anyway, not trying to stir it. Congratulations to the Mossback crew on another great year. I look forward to seeing Bulls Gone Wild 4 and if you did a Locals Gone Wild I would buy it to.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Locals Gone Wild, that has a good ring to it. 8) 

Hell, I am a Sanpete County boy, I have NOTHING against locals, except for the ones who think they own the mountain.  

I look forward to seeing my 'local' friends every trip down there. 

The one part of what I do I like the least is the videoing, I only do it because the 'boss' says I have to. I am no doubt the worst of the 'pack' at videoing.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Stay away from them Loa boy's, they'll have their way with you.. :shock:


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

ut ohh. :shock:


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

I guarantee none of the "locals" that showed up or were involved with the rescue had anything to do with threatening PRO...but I do know there were a bunch of "locals" who made life on the mountain hard for everyone and had no concern for anything resembling "ethics".


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

.45 said:


> Stay away from them Loa boy's, they'll have their way with you.. :shock:


Would you get over the sheep thing? :shock: Brokeback Mountain is right in the middle of Wayne County.  :mrgreen: :wink:


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## archery (Sep 7, 2007)

long live doyle and mossback.


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## travis madden (Sep 29, 2007)

o-|| Is that it?


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## SingleShot man (Dec 24, 2007)

I think a 'Locals Gone Wild' would be a blockbuster hit. Can I audition for the slack-jawed yokel who chases bucks on a 4-wheeler?
On the other hand, I could slam a 12 pack and run down a perilous canyon with a loaded rifle. That's not a starring role, but I'll accept a cameo.

Wait, wait, no- I wanna be the guy who 'accidently' shoots a doe, then kicks it down into a ravine where the fish cops won't find it!

I'm just having fun with the poo-flinging, folks. I have no idea who any of these people are or where you're talking about. I've just met some rather unsavory characters in the deer woods whom I'd love to villainize on film!

I can't believe I forgot this Nobel Prize winner- I wanna be the guy that unloads his magazine at a flicker of movement behind a bush. 
So many morons, so little battery life!


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

An addendum to my analogy in in line with the comments just made. These types are not preditors, they are scavangers. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

How about we talk about coffee and Barbara Streisand?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

idiot with a bow said:


> How about we talk about coffee and Barbara Streisand?


Nay, Zim would be the only one who would know her songs. _(O)_ :mrgreen:


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> idiot with a bow said:
> 
> 
> > How about we talk about coffee and Barbara Streisand?
> ...


Nay? Pro, you are really feeling your oats.


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## InvaderZim (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> idiot with a bow said:
> 
> 
> > How about we talk about coffee and Barbara Streisand?
> ...


Excuse me for having a little class!

Actually I hate Barb...but the beeech can sing!

Better than all that "new" gangsta-country rap you boys is listnin' too!

The gay jokes are gettin' old btw. :roll:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

InvaderZim said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > idiot with a bow said:
> ...


Fair enough, I figured since *YOU* started them and encouraged them it was 'fair' game. Didn't mean to get your pants wadded up. 8)

I don't like the "gangsta-country rap" either. I'll stay with the country classics, "if it ain't got twang it shouldn't be sang".

No hard feelings I hope Zim. _(O)_


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I don't like the "gangsta-country rap" either. I'll stay with the country classics, "if it ain't got twang it shouldn't be sang".


+1.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

idiot with a bow said:


> How about we talk about coffee and Barbara Streisand?


I like coffee !!  

I hate 'twang' music.... :evil:


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Fair enough, I figured since *YOU* started them and encouraged them it was 'fair' game. Didn't mean to get your pants wadded up. 8)
> 
> I don't like the "gangsta-country rap" either. I'll stay with the country classics, *"if it ain't got twang it shouldn't be sang".
> *
> No hard feelings I hope Zim. _(O)_


Does that go along with, "If your dog, wife, and girlfriend all don't die or have cancer, and your car breaks down while out roppin' them sheep, and losing your job all in the same day." That is pretty much all of the old "Twangy" country songs I have heard! :wink: 8)


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

jahan said:


> Does that go along with, "If your dog, wife, and girlfriend all don't die or have cancer, and your car breaks down while out roppin' them sheep, and losing your job all in the same day." That is pretty much all of the old "Twangy" country songs I have heard! :wink: 8)


 :rotfl: :rotfl:

Ditto...


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

> The gay jokes are gettin' old btw.


I don't think he's offended. He's too wise.


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## silversalmon66 (Dec 12, 2007)

Ain't know thing but a chicken wing... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

If you like that one, you gotta listen to David Allen Coe's "Perfect Country Western Song". The last verse is:

Well, I was drunk the day my Mom got outta prison. 
And I went to pick her up in the rain. 
But, before I could get to the station in my pickup truck 
She got runned over by a damned old train. 

Now that's country twang.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

BradN said:


> If you like that one, you gotta listen to David Allen Coe's "Perfect Country Western Song". The last verse is:
> 
> Well, I was drunk the day my Mom got outta prison.
> And I went to pick her up in the rain.
> ...


And **** fine country twang at that!

I hate the "new" country almost as bad, sometimes more so, than Barbara and the hip hop garbage, or the "new" rock noise. Classic rock is good once in a while, but nothing can hang with Hank Williams or George Strait.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> BradN said:
> 
> 
> > If you like that one, you gotta listen to David Allen Coe's "Perfect Country Western Song". The last verse is:
> ...


Thats a pretty bold statement, I bet Ron Jeremy could hang with them. :shock: :wink: I like both of those guys, but I like rock a lot and the eighties music also.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Man, how many twists can this topic take? Ron Jeremy, what the h.....?

I like the 'real' rock myself, nothing since the 80's though. I grew up when "big hair" bands ruled, and I still crank some Ratt or Motley Crue, but as I type I am listening to Tanya Tucker sing "When I Die". Sweet music and a great TWANG! I love the steel guitar. On a side note, my three year old got his first guitar for Christmas and can already play several chords and knows all the words to Gary Allen's new song, "Planes". we sang it to momma last night. The boy sang and I "twanged" on the old guitar.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

I like Classic rock among other types of music, but when I head to the mountains "old" country can't be beat. Merle Haggard is a personal favorite. The "new" country music just doesn't strike the same chords with me. I think it's probably the lack of twang.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

New country lost me when Kenny Chesney sang about nothing but beaches and won all sorts of awards for it. Then Rascal Flatts covered a song that Chris Ledoux already covered. Killed my soul. So now if i listen to music it's old country, (Ledoux, Hank Jr. D.A.C, Merle, Waylon, etc.) and not so old Garth and George Strait, or Hip hop. No joke. If some of you red necks would give it a chance, you would see that some rap is as good as music gets. Funner to listen to than most music. Look up T.I. and KanYe west. When that gets old try the roots.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

idiot with a bow said:


> New country lost me when Kenny Chesney sang about nothing but beaches and won all sorts of awards for it. Then Rascal Flatts covered a song that Chris Ledoux already covered. Killed my soul. So now if i listen to music it's old country, (Ledoux, Hank Jr. D.A.C, Merle, Waylon, etc.) and not so old Garth and George Strait, or Hip hop. No joke. If some of you red necks would give it a chance, you would see that some rap is as good as music gets. Funner to listen to than most music. Look up T.I. and KanYe west. When that gets old try the roots.


You were making sense, but after you typed George Strait it stopped. :?

It should be a crime to take a great Ledoux song and have some 'metros' RUIN it. The "new" country is about as country as Rocky Anderson.


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## bowhunter3 (Oct 18, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> idiot with a bow said:
> 
> 
> > New country lost me when Kenny Chesney sang about nothing but beaches and won all sorts of awards for it. Then Rascal Flatts covered a song that Chris Ledoux already covered. Killed my soul. So now if i listen to music it's old country, (Ledoux, Hank Jr. D.A.C, Merle, Waylon, etc.) and not so old Garth and George Strait, or Hip hop. No joke. If some of you red necks would give it a chance, you would see that some rap is as good as music gets. Funner to listen to than most music. Look up T.I. and KanYe west. When that gets old try the roots.
> ...


There is some good new country not a lot but there is some that I like. Still better than anything out there though. Hip Hop? :? -)O(- _/O But old country is still the best I will agree. I would rather my kids listen to any kind of country than what is on the radio today.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

You are right, Toby Keith, Gary Allen, Josh Turner, Sara Evans (way hot!!!!), Miranda Lambert are good, maybe a few others. But, the majority of the new stuff is crap. Tim, Faith, Kenny, and Rascal Flatts should be used only for getting info from the prisoners at Gitmo.


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## Firstarrow (Sep 28, 2007)

> Hank, why do you drink, why do you roll smokes, why must you live out the songs that you wrote?
> Cause it's a family tradition...


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## Firstarrow (Sep 28, 2007)

'nother oldie but goodie!


> all my rowdy friends are commin' over tonight...


HAPPY NEW YEARS EVERBODY :!:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I take it your are a Hank Jr fan, good on ya!


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Pro, congrats on your 1500th post. I wish that I thought that every body cared enough of what I have to say to have posted 1500 times in a couple of months. Had you not been kicked off of the other forum for a while you would have probably set the new worlds record! :mrgreen: 

Chris Ledoux is king. I have had a few extremly sad days in my life and the day we lost him was one of them. 107.5 has the best tunes and of course the Ledoux of the day.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> Pro, congrats on your 1500th post. *I wish that I thought that every body cared enough of what I have to say* to have posted 1500 times in a couple of months. Had you not been kicked off of the other forum for a while you would have probably set the new worlds record! :mrgreen:
> 
> Chris Ledoux is king. I have had a few extremly sad days in my life and the day we lost him was one of them. 107.5 has the best tunes and of course the Ledoux of the day.


Here's the rub, "I DON'T CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?" Name that tune Mr Ledoux.

I am listening to 107.5 as I type, while I look at bighorns on the Stansburys. Yes, it is good to be me! :mrgreen: I am heading for home in a few, then off to a good friends home for a get together up north. Happy New Year. YEE HAW!


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Here's the rub, "I DON'T CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?" Name that tune Mr Ledoux.
> 
> I am listening to 107.5 as I type, while I look at bighorns on the Stansburys. Yes, it is good to be me! :mrgreen: I am heading for home in a few, then off to a good friends home for a get together up north. Happy New Year. YEE HAW!


That is Montgomery Gentry and it's I don't give a DARN, what other people think, what do you think about that!

Never heard it but that's what Mr. Google told me.


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## Justice (Dec 22, 2007)

I see a couple of you are fans of Hank Williams Jr., Do you know who his son is? He dated Pamela Anderson for a while.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

YEAH, Hank III. He's good. Sounds more like his Grandpa then his daddy.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > Here's the rub, "I DON'T CARE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?" Name that tune Mr Ledoux.
> ...


If you were to hear the song you would notice the last time they sing the chorus it is NOT "DARN"! :wink: :roll:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > proutdoors said:
> ...


Yes, but if you're out in front of the pack leading the race to the Celestial Kingdom you don't use naughty words like that. :mrgreen: Hell...Uh I mean... Heck, you don't even THINK those words. :lol:


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## Justice (Dec 22, 2007)

anyone ever hear of "Kid Rock"


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Pro this has to be a record your one sentence cause twelve pages of replys! and running up on almost 1700 views. I would not have guess you saying "want to see some cool elk pics" could go this far! Way to stir the pot!


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## RTMC (Sep 10, 2007)

Justice said:


> anyone ever hear of "Kid Rock"


Yep, he's the guy who wishes he was Hank II's son.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Thanks for posting Pro, great pics on the site. It is great seeing such great animals coming from our little state. Good management and great hunters produce a very nice harvest year. There are many great organizations that help make this happen. Good for the Mossback crew and all the other outfitters out there. Maybe one day I can feel like I am the most ethical and moral person walking the face of the earth to be able to publically judge others that I don't even know. :roll: Thanks again!


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## Justice (Dec 22, 2007)

RTMC, I believe that kid rock is the son of Hank Williams Jr. If you dont believe me check it out. I think it was at Johhny Cash's funeral that I seen them on TV together and they mentioned it.


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

bwhntr said:


> Thanks for posting Pro, great pics on the site. It is great seeing such great animals coming from our little state. Good management and great hunters produce a very nice harvest year. There are many great organizations that help make this happen. Good for the Mossback crew and all the other outfitters out there. Maybe one day I can feel like I am the most ethical and moral person walking the face of the earth to be able to publically judge others that I don't even know. :roll: Thanks again!


You will never get to this point, your morals drop like a rock everytime you play with your stabalizer.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> You will never get to this point, your morals drop like a rock everytime you play with your stabalizer.


Ya know, I love obscure humor as much as the next guy but this is ridiculous... :lol: 8)


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

I knew it, you were a little jealous you didn't get one...You have secretly wanted me to make you one too!


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## smackaquacker (Jan 3, 2008)

The Doyle Moss debate can be summed up very easily. 
There is no problem with someone drawing a LE bull tag and then having 16 of his closest friends on the mountain helping him scout that big bull. 
But when you turn this around and some rich guy from back east pays $101 K for the gov. tag. Hires Doyle. Doyle pays -)O(- 16 guys to scout an area and find the biggest bull on the whole mountain. The rich guy from back east jumps on his personal airplane. Doyle picks up the rich guy. Doyle drives the rich guy to the mountain. The rich guy "hikes" about 100 yards. Doyle shows the guy where to sit and wait. The spotters call Doyle on the phone and tell him that the bull is going to walk right past them. The big 443 bull feeds in within 120 yards of the rich guy. Rich guy shoots the elk. Spotters all come down to look at the big bull. Pictures with 16 people are taken standing by the bull. Spotters cape the animal. Animal goes back to Doyles house. Doyle has a cast of the antlers mase. Bull ends up back east. Doyle has a replica made. Doyle buys 8 booths at the expo which cost 10 K each. Doyle puts the replica in the big expo. 

Now does this sound ethical.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Booth spaces are only around 2k for the bigger ones and the 443 bull was shot with a bow. :mrgreen:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Booth spaces are only around 2k for the bigger ones and the 443 bull was shot with a bow. :mrgreen:


And those are the two things he came the closest to being right on, I am referring to "smackaquacker" :roll:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I wish I could drive within a couple hundred yards of a 440" bull. Where are they hunting, willow park?

Listen, an outfitters job is to scout and have a good idea where good animals might be. The Pahvant can be a fairly easy hunt, outfitter or not. Be grateful you don't have to pay your friends to scout when you draw an LE tag. Education and information cost money, one way or another.


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## smackaquacker (Jan 3, 2008)

I can guarentee you that if I would have wrote 2k and 443 bull killed by a bow, this story would be exactly the way these hunts go. 
I was not talking about the 443 bull hunt in general, I was summarizing the plotline for Doyle's hunts. 
Are you saying it is fair to pay all of these guys to find a big bull, fly there rich hunter in and shoot it? His hunters have done absolutely no work at all for these animals. 
Meat means absolutely nothing. If there was a law passed stating that they could leave all the meat, I am absolutely certain that Mossback would be the first to do it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

smackaquacker said:


> I can guarentee you that if I would have wrote 2k and 443 bull killed by a bow, this story would be exactly the way these hunts go.
> I was not talking about the 443 bull hunt in general, I was summarizing the plotline for Doyle's hunts.
> Are you saying it is fair to pay all of these guys to find a big bull, fly there rich hunter in and shoot it? His hunters have done absolutely no work at all for these animals.
> Meat means absolutely nothing. If there was a law passed stating that they could leave all the meat, I am absolutely certain that Mossback would be the first to do it.


1)You can't "guarentee" a **** thing on this topic! Have you EVER been on one of these hunts? Judging from your comments, I "guarentee" you have NOT!

2)I wasn't aware Mossback had a "plotline" :roll:

3)I have been on DOZENS of these hunts, I have yet to have one turn out anywhere near what you describe.

4)How can you be "absolutely certain that Mossback would leave the meat"? I sure would NOT, I like the stuff to much. This comment implies Mossback and all who work there are un-ethical and complete slob hunters. Since I am one of them, I beg to differ. The difference is I have first hand knowledge, while you have first hand BS!


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## smackaquacker (Jan 3, 2008)

Tell me where I am wrong - 
Did someone from back east pay 101k for the tag?
When this guy came to Utah to hunt the 443 bull that had been scouted how many people did Doyle have on the mountain above Holden?
Does this guy have his own airplane?
Did he fly in it to Utah?
Did he drive from SLC to Millard County with Doyle.
Who drove him to the spot that he should sit and wait for this bull and shoot it with a cross-bow. 

He may not have killed the bull - but...
Once it was killed what was done with it?
Mounted - replica's made
Expo - that does cost more than 2k per booth..

Anymore, 

before you question someones knowledge - question your own ethics.

I will ask the same question again....
Are you saying it is fair to pay all of these guys to find a big bull, fly there rich hunter in and shoot it? 

There absolutely is a plot line


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

smackaquacker said:


> Tell me where I am wrong -
> Did someone from back east pay 101k for the tag?
> When this guy came to Utah to hunt the 443 bull that had been scouted how many people did Doyle have on the mountain above Holden?
> Does this guy have his own airplane?
> ...


Well, since you asked. 8)

1)No this hunter did NOT pay 101k for the tag.
2)It was NOT 16, or anywhere near that, in fact I saw an 'average joe' hunter on another unit that had 20+ helping her. Is that ethical in your book? :? 
3)No he does NOT have his own plane.
4)Since he doesn't own his own plane, of course he did NOT fly into Utah.
5)See above two answers.
6)He was in a tree stand and he did NOT use a crossbow. He is a world class archer. I think you are confusing this hunter with the gentleman who purchased the Governors tag, who as of last night has his tag still intact. Get your facts BEFORE you pipe off!

The sportsman tag buck will be on display at the Expo as well, so what is your point there?


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## smackaquacker (Jan 3, 2008)

With all of your amazing skill - paying attention are reading must not be one of them.
I am not talking about Ryan that did kill the 443 elk. I am talking about the first guy that flew in on his personal airplane to hunt this elk that had the gov. tag. I know it may be hard but if you will look back in one of my earlier posts (now this will be a big word but -read-) you will see that I was talking about the rich guy that bought the gov. tag. He did try it with a cross bow. He did fly in and out on his plane when he was unsuccessful. He did pay 101k for the tag.
You are a liar if you say there was not that many people. How can you say there was a woman hunting with 20+ people. When the gov. tag guy came to hunt you had a week headstart on everyone else. There were no other hunters. 

Stop trying to make yourselves look better than you really are. I understand that it is hard to keep defending yourselves when you know these "hunting" methods are unethical.

You keep avoiding this question.. I know why .. but I would just like to see your answer. 


Are you saying it is fair to pay all of these guys to find a big bull, fly there rich hunter in and shoot it?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

You said he "shot" the bull. The Governors tag has yet to be filled.



> You are a liar if you say there was not that many people. How can you say there was a woman hunting with 20+ people. When the gov. tag guy came to hunt you had a week headstart on everyone else. There were no other hunters.


Big words don't make a big man. I am not a liar, nor did I lie. Since I was referring to the 443 bull, which if you were to "read", you would know that already. :roll:

The lady with 20+ hunters was on a LE early rifle hunt in south-central Utah. In 2006 I saw 48 riders on horses 'scouting' for TWO LE tag holders. Not a single 'outfitter/guide' in the mix.



> Stop trying to make yourselves look better than you really are. I understand that it is hard to keep defending yourselves when you know these "hunting" methods are unethical.


I'll put my 'ethics' up against yours anytime tough guy. I have no need to "try" and look better, the results are there for all to see. _(O)_

I have NEVER "AVOIDED" answering ANY question, most certainly one asked by you.



> Are you saying it is fair to pay all of these guys to find a big bull, fly there rich hunter in and shoot it?


I am saying I see no difference in the hunter who 'buys' his 'friends' with money, and the guy who is a 'local' that has as many/more 'scouters/spotters' than the money hunter. NONE! I said it before, but you either failed to "read" it or failed to comprehend it, I have been involved in dozens of these 'money hunts' and have yet to have one turn out where the hunter "just showed up and shot the animal". *Every* hunter I have been lucky enough to guide WORKED for his animal as hard as the 'average joe' hunters on the unit. My hunters pass up bulls that most hunters would crap their pants over, that is no easy task to pass 370-380 class bulls at less than 100 yards with a rifle in tow.


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## smackaquacker (Jan 3, 2008)

I believe that there is a great difference between the guy that has 15 of his friends helping him scout for that great big animal, and the person that pays 15 people to do it for him.
It all starts with drawing that tag (unless you are rich). The hard work really begins. You spend every free day you can get glassing those mountains. You put hundreds of miles on your hooves. All of the preparation time is so special that it will be remembered for a long time. After you have killed that great big beast you get to show everyone how proud you are - and you should be proud for all the hard work you have put into it. 

The person that pays to kill there animal will never be able to experience this. 
I am sure that that the Mossback guys love what they do. But if you stop and think about it - is this really what "hunting" should be? 
Don't think I am just some jealous person that wishes he could pay to kill a big bull. It is all about a persons hunting ethics. Everyone certainly has there own, and are entitled to them. 

I would be ashamed of myself if I paid someone else to do all of the hard work.

Look at this however you wish, but most hunters feel the same way. 

define "Work for there animal" - To me it means scouting for your own animal. To you I guess it means flying in, maybe hiking a long ways, and killing an animal. Hiking a long ways is not hard work. Scouting on you own is. 

Your hunters do just show up and shoot the animal. Showing up may take a few days / weeks but they are still just showing up. As long as they are not putting in the glassing time before the hunt it will always be "just showing up".


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## InvaderZim (Sep 7, 2007)

Bla Bla Bla... _/O 

enough already! :shock:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

smackaquacker said:


> I believe that there is a great difference between the guy that has 15 of his friends helping him scout for that great big animal, and the person that pays 15 people to do it for him.
> It all starts with drawing that tag (unless you are rich). The hard work really begins. You spend every free day you can get glassing those mountains. You put hundreds of miles on your hooves. All of the preparation time is so special that it will be remembered for a long time. After you have killed that great big beast you get to show everyone how proud you are - and you should be proud for all the hard work you have put into it.
> 
> The person that pays to kill there animal will never be able to experience this.
> ...


I would guess you are upset that there are people in this world that have money, period.

Fair? Since when is life fair?

Unethical? Come on man, don't go making yourself look like a fool by pointing out a lack of ethics from a stories you heard 6th hand.

Welcome to America, It's capitalism, like it or not, it's part of what makes our country great and unless there is something illegal going on that you have proof of, get over it, it's a lost cause.

Tell me this, if I drew a tag and hired Bart, Doyle, Troy Justenson, Bruce Hubbard, Jed Wayment or any other local guides to guide me, and they and their guys scouted all summer for a big bull for me to kill, would that be unethical? Is it only unethical because people can afford to pay for their service?

I have a crew of guys work on my yard and mow my lawn in the spring and summer, is that unethical? Should I be doing my own yard work, just so I can be a good person?


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## InvaderZim (Sep 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> I have a crew of guys work on my yard and mow my lawn in the spring and summer, is that unethical? Should I be doing my own yard work, just so I can be a good person?


You ritzy, no good bastage! :wink: (I make my mom mow my lawn  )

On a light note, those are some dang nice Elk and Deer pics on his site.

Sportsman for who... :mrgreen:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> It all starts with drawing that tag (unless you are rich). The hard work really begins. You spend every free day you can get glassing those mountains. You put hundreds of miles on your hooves. All of the preparation time is so special that it will be remembered for a long time. After you have killed that great big beast you get to show everyone how proud you are - and you should be proud for all the hard work you have put into it.
> 
> The person that pays to kill there animal will never be able to experience this.
> I am sure that that the Mossback guys love what they do. But if you stop and think about it - is this really what "hunting" should be?
> ...


If the guy lives out of State then do you think he has a lot of time during the spring and summer to spent weeks here in Utah scouting??? If he hires guides then he is very smart because they can find the animals since we doesnt have time to fly to Utah every Saturday and purchase a hotel week after week, rent some ATVS or other camping equipment. Does this make the rich man less of a hunter? Doyle has guided a lot of hunters who can out hike or hunt most people on this forum.

Does Doyle and his clients road hunt? I think 95% of the time they are off the roads and working their butts off.

*Doyle packed a disabled kid named Richard (who drew the Sportsmens tag a few year ago) up on top of the Henry mtns. How many people would pack someone on their back all the way the side of the mountain. This kid wasnt a high paying client, but just your average joe. Doyle didnt have to pack that 140 plus pound kid on his back, but Doyle works his butt off for everyone. Richard never did kill the buck, but you could tell he was having the time of his life and I bet he will never get to see the country up high in the mountains like he did that day. Doyle has a big heart. He donated the hunt so Doyle did all that work for free. *

But then many of you question Doyle and you think hes a very bad man because he makes a living guiding. Gosh that would be the best dream job.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

CS, That kind of thing makes all the other stuff in this seem just a bit insignificant. Great story. Just got to say it would have really been cool if richard had been able to down a buck, still very cool forthe young gent.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

soules2007 said:


> CS, That kind of thing makes all the other stuff in this seem just a bit insignificant. Great story. Just got to say it would have really been cool if richard had been able to down a buck, still very cool forthe young gent.


Richard DID kill a buck, just not that and not that day. Doyle and Team Mossback also helped another disabled hunter in 2006 on a Book Cliffs deer hunt. The hunters didn't pay a dime and didn't have to pay for his hotel room/food/gas/etc. A lot of things about Doyle people don't know because all they see in the guy killing big animals, but I would NOT work for/with him if I had issues with his character.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Richard DID kill a buck, just not that and not that day. Doyle and Team Mossback also helped another disabled hunter in 2006 on a Book Cliffs deer hunt. The hunters didn't pay a dime and didn't have to pay for his hotel room/food/gas/etc. A lot of things about Doyle people don't know because all they see in the guy killing big animals, but I would NOT work for/with him if I had issues with his character.


Yes Richard ended up killing a HUGE buck later in the season. Richard told me that Doyle changed his life because of the hunt that Doyle took him on. Im very grateful because of Doyle and Team Mossback who were willing to take me out on a hunt of a lifetime. Doyle isnt all about the money. When we were in the Bookcliffs we helped people who had car problems and people tried to pay us and we didnt accept their money. I got to ask a lot of questions about Mossback and guiding and here tons of stories about the animals they had taken over the years. Its sad that people make up a lot of stories about someone they don't really know.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

CS/Pro forgive the ignorance, when you say packed on your back is that literally, I know we were talking about wheelchairs, but is thier a rig that would permit some to pack someone else? (probably a lame question, just trying envision how it went). but this does make me question how a low moral character can find the time for genuine charity work(which i feel is one of the most important things a person can, outside of raising his or her familes). These stories go a long way in speaking for doyles values. most of what i have heard is speculation about doyle, or reckless banter, some have been proven to be outright lies. These stories i take for gospel GOOD JOB MR DOYLE.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> CS/Pro forgive the ignorance, when you say packed on your back is that literally, I know we were talking about wheelchairs, but is thier a rig that would permit some to pack someone else? (probably a lame question, just trying envision how it went).


Doyle threw him over his shoulder.There is a rig for carrying infants, but not a 140 plus pound kid.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

When I was hunting with Mossback then I tried to give the guides a fairly large tip and they told me to put the money away and not to worry about any tips because we loving helping people like you and we dont expect to get paid for it.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

140 lb kid over your shoulder, up the mountain, alright that is a feat! 80 pound pack is tough, and the weight is evenly distirbuted. 140+ over one shoulder for any distance is quite remakable, up the mountain to hunt yo da man!(the firemans carry only works for short distances)


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## bowhunter3 (Oct 18, 2007)

I am going to add my 2 cents to this thread. How many of you guys here would love to make a very good living hunting or helping people hunt. I know I for would, bet my arse I would. Just like I would love to be a professional athlete, they get payed to play a game that I love. Could I ever hire a guide no, not ever. But that doesn't mean we should bag on them and say they are not true sportsman. They are probably better hunters than most since they are getting paid for there services. Just like professional athletes are better since they are getting payed for it. I don't know anyone from mossback, never met anyone, never talked to anyone except on line with pro. He seams alright with me. Differ on some things but that is life. I truely envy anyone who can make a living up in the mountains.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

I don't know anyone from mossback, never met anyone, never talked to anyone except on line with pro. Pro congrats you have someone else drinking the coolaid!


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> I tried to give the guides a fairly large tip and they told me to put the money away and not to worry about any tips


Isn't that how the guides make there money?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > I tried to give the guides a fairly large tip and they told me to put the money away and not to worry about any tips
> ...


Partly, but those who helped Justin told me just being there and helping him was 'tip' enough. 8)


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Lets not forget the time when Pro and Mossback took me turkey hunting!!!! Pro can call in turkeys like it does elk  You da man!!!

Wait until you see Turkeys Gone Wild Volume 1 (just kiddin)


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## suave300 (Sep 11, 2007)

It's sad and unfortunate that people out there talk trash about someone that has anything to do with Mossback, but has never met anyone from there team. I have personally hunted with 4 of them and met a few others through different things, and I can HONESTLY say that each one of them, Doyle included, are *top notch* people. They are people that love to help others on there hunts. It's not always about the money. They are hard workers at home so that they can afford going in the hills in the fall to help others achieve success. Everyone of them that i have meet would bend over backwards to help you. Until you know someone, don't spread garbage about them when it's unwaranted!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

In the DWR's Wildlife Review magazine, Mitch Lane has written an excellent article on hunting ethics and the issues that face hunters today. In the article Lane speaks about how ethics have changed over time and how some things that once were acceptable are no longer ethical. He also explains that what is ethical or ok for some maybe unethical or not ok for others.

In the article, Lane says, "A good way to determine whether a hunting practice is ethical is the concept of fair chase. Fair chase forms a balance between the hunter and the hunted in which the wild animal usually escapes unharmed but is sometimes taken by the hunter. Fairness to the animal, and its chance to escape unharmed, might be the best way to determine if a behavior is ethical or unethical. Many hunters would deem unethical any practice that tends to give him an unfair advantage over his prey."

In my opinion, the use of guides/posses of large groups of hunters to help one guy/gal kill an animal violates the the concept of fair chase. In my mind, these groups--whether they are paid or not--are killers and not hunters.

I also believe that this type of hunting has made a mockery of trophy hunting, the record books, and sadly blackened the sport of hunting much like steroids have made a mockery of baseball and the use thereof has tainted the record books.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> In my opinion, the use of guides/posses of large groups of hunters to help one guy/gal kill an animal violates the the concept of fair chase. In my mind, these groups--whether they are paid or not--are killers and not hunters.


Thats just your opinion and how valuable is your opinion again?


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > In my opinion, the use of guides/posses of large groups of hunters to help one guy/gal kill an animal violates the the concept of fair chase. In my mind, these groups--whether they are paid or not--are killers and not hunters.
> 
> 
> Thats just your opinion and how valuable is your opinion again?


About as valuable as yours, mine, and everyones else's. 8) :wink: Your a feisty feller aren't ya. 8)


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## inbowrange (Sep 11, 2007)

I second that thought i do not believe the use of a guide and his many members is a good methed or should be used and i will never use one. That being said i don't think there is anything wrong with the guides them self as long as they just find and keep track of the animals and there is no 20 man pushes and stuff like that to get the animal where you want it. Alls these guides are doing is doing a job that there is a market for and they are making money doing it just the same way you all do your job. BUT you do have to look at the hunter and how he tells the stories, if he takes any of the credit or gives it all to the guides that should have the head on there wall cause they did EVERYTHING but shoot it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> In the DWR's Wildlife Review magazine, Mitch Lane has written an excellent article on hunting ethics and the issues that face hunters today. In the article Lane speaks about how ethics have changed over time and how some things that once were acceptable are no longer ethical. He also explains that what is ethical or ok for some maybe unethical or not ok for others.
> 
> In the article, Lane says, "A good way to determine whether a hunting practice is ethical is the concept of fair chase. Fair chase forms a balance between the hunter and the hunted in which the wild animal usually escapes unharmed but is sometimes taken by the hunter. Fairness to the animal, and its chance to escape unharmed, might be the best way to determine if a behavior is ethical or unethical. Many hunters would deem unethical any practice that tends to give him an unfair advantage over his prey."
> 
> ...


Let's look a little deeper into some of your comments.

1)So, when a hunters uses family/friends to help does that "violate the concept of fair chase"? So, unless it is 100% DYI, and I mean DO IT *YOURSELF*, it is unethical according to *you*. :roll:

2)So, does the LE rifle hunt at 90% fall into *your* 'a mockery' of 'fair chase'? :shock:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> 1)So, when a hunters uses family/friends to help does that "violate the concept of fair chase"? So, unless it is 100% DYI, and I mean DO IT *YOURSELF*, it is unethical according to *you*. :roll:
> 
> 2)So, does the LE rifle hunt at 90% fall into *your* 'a mockery' of 'fair chase'? :shock:


1) It depends on how many. 3 or 4 is not a posse...10 is. I guess you didn't read the part when I said, "large groups"? :shock: :roll: I NEVER said it had to be 100% DYI...but employing a posse of hunters to spot, radio, chase, herd, and push animals is definitely against "fair chase".

2) The 90% success rate is at least partially due to the fact that many "hunters" employ posses to help them kill. The 90% success rate is also at least partially due to the other methods hunters use to unfairly locate and chase animals. You take away the posses and outfitters and I bet money the success rates would go way down.

The success rate in and of itself does NOT make it unfair...the methods hunters are using to kill the animals does...like flying a unit a week before the hunt to locate animals, like having a posse of "friends" watching the animal all year long before the hunt.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> ) It depends on how many? 3 or 4 is not a posse...10 is. I guess you didn't read the part when I said, "large groups"? I NEVER said it had to be 100% DYI...but employing a posse of hunters to spot, radio, chase, herd, and push animals is definitely against "fair chase".
> 
> 2) The 90% success rate is at least partially due to the fact that many "hunters" employ posses to help them kill. The 90% success rate is also at least partially due to the other methods hunters use to unfairly locate and chase animals. You take away the posses and outfitters and I bet money the success rates would go way down.
> 
> The success rate in and of itself does NOT make it unfair...the methods hunters are using to kill the animals does...like flying a unit a week before the hunt to locate animals, like having a posse of "friends" watching the animal all year long before the hunt.


1. Doyle, doesnt have 10 guides per animal and you know that.

2. The reason we have 90% success rates is because we are hunting elk with high-powered rifles in the rut when its very easy to kill them. Many hunters don't hire guides. I would be willing to bet that maybe 10% of the people who draw will hire a guide.

Plus if you add in the fact that many units have very high bull to cow ratios making it easier to find bulls.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> 1. Doyle, doesnt have 10 guides per animal and you know that.
> 
> 2. The reason we have 90% success rates is because we are hunting elk with high-powered rifles in the rut when its very easy to kill them. Many hunters don't hire guides. I would be willing to bet that maybe 10% of the people who draw will hire a guide.


1) I never said anything about Doyle. And I have no clue how many people Doyle has working for him or how many clients he has. But, I have seen some of his pics where you have numerous guys surrounding one animal...in one of the pics of the 2007 443 bull, 9 camoflauged hunters stood next to the animal. To me, that looks like a posse.

2) So, why is it that Arizona has such high success rates on units outside the rut? Also, I am not only talking about guides...I am talking about large groups of hunters working together to kill one animal. Not necessarily paid guides.


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## marksman (Oct 4, 2007)

More on topic. Is the mossback website down right now? What is the link I can't get there.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

*



2. The reason we have 90% success rates is because we are hunting elk with high-powered rifles in the rut when its very easy to kill them. Many hunters don't hire guides. I would be willing to bet that maybe 10% of the people who draw will hire a guide.

Click to expand...

*Actually the main reason for the 90% success rate is we cram 95% of Utahs *mature* bull elk hunters into 5% of Utahs huntable terain and let only 5% of the remaining hunters hunt the other 95% of Utahs mature bull elk terain.........Did you follow?.........Does it make as much sense to you as it does to me....?????? :|


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Actually the main reason for the 90% success rate is we cram 95% of Utahs mature bull elk hunters into 5% of Utahs huntable terain and let only 5% of the remaining hunters hunt the other 95% of Utahs mature bull elk terain.........Did you follow?.........Does it make as much sense to you as it does to me....??????


No, I didn't it :lol: :lol: The reason LE rifle success rate is high is because of less tags are issued and units have way to many bulls and the rut is the easiest time to kill a bull.


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## suave300 (Sep 11, 2007)

Easy there 10000 ft, those numbers are quite inflated. You don't have to exagerate to make a point.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Proutdoors is a guide? :shock: I had no Idea, Bart if we live In the same zip code do I get a discount? :wink: I've heard rumors of Trophy Jack rabbits out here, and have yet to find them. Maybe with a litte help you could steer me the right direction.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> 2) So, why is it that Arizona has such high success rates on units outside the rut? Also, I am not only talking about guides...I am talking about large groups of hunters working together to kill one animal. Not necessarily paid guides.


I have a brother who lives in Arizona and he says the units with the high success rates outside the rut are very easy access units so its easier for people to kill a bull or cow on those units.


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## smackaquacker (Jan 3, 2008)

Come on now - is this really true?????? 


> 1. Doyle, doesnt have 10 guides per animal and you know that.


You and I both know there are hunts that have more that ten "guides" on them

not like everyone hasn't already seen this photo but here is the link
http://www.mossback.com/gallery2/main.p ... temId=2306

there are many more photos like this -

Did they just happen to show up after the bull was killed? I count nine - howbout you?
I know of two people that helped scout that weren't in the photo - Rhoades and Ogden - that makes eleven. I'll bet I can come up with more.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

smackaquacker said:


> Come on now - is this really true??????
> 
> 
> > 1. Doyle, doesnt have 10 guides per animal and you know that.
> ...


Not that it SHOULD matter, but one of the "nine" is another client who was nearby and wanted to see/help. He had a few of those in the picture with him, a couple of others where "scouting" for other clients as well. This is the biggest bull to ever be harvested in Utah with ANY weapon, little lone a bow, so a lot of Team Mossback guides wanted to see it up cloase and personal. The Sportsman Tag hunter and his buck had just as big of a crowd, but since they were family/friends I suppose it was OK. :roll:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> Proutdoors is a guide? :shock: I had no Idea, Bart if we live In the same zip code do I get a discount? :wink: I've heard rumors of Trophy Jack rabbits out here, and have yet to find them. Maybe with a litte help you could steer me the right direction.


NO!!!! :evil:

You and your 'friends' didn't want me to go along on a Trophy Jack Rabbit hunt before, tried to go DYI. Now you are out of the loop. _(O)_


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Dang It.... -#&#*!- -#&#*!- 

What can we ever do to repair the damage..?? *-HELP!-*


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## archery (Sep 7, 2007)

I will likely draw one of those super duper fantastico archery tags this year and i might sell my soul to the devil to be able to hire doyle and crew. ( could he supply 20 spotters?, i want the best chances possible) and does anyone know how to contact mr Devil?. I want to strike a bargain with him. for the real record. can't all the little boys and Girls just get along. if it were illegal to use guides, or gangs of guides the state would stop it. so untill then just stop the bichin. I truly believe that if all the mossback haters had the income to hire them and try for bulls like those presented. most would crash down his doors to get in line. can't people just enjoy the fact that utah is the premier state for trophy elk and hope that one day they will get a shot something at similar.

and if i may address the issue of multiple eyes , or crews. i would much rather see a crew of individual guys that work for the common goal than a family of 10-15 doing the same. i have witnessed the antics of families helping one hunter and holy crud. the garbage i saw was so far worse than anything these other crews would ever do. in fact i will say that most of the B.S. thas is said against the mullet crew likely were perpetrated by some loving family member from another crew. If you have a group of individuals , they self police themselves, if you have a crew of family, the truth, and right and wrong are easily erased and weird stuff happens.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

archery said:


> I will likely draw one of those super duper fantastico archery tags this year and i might sell my soul to the devil to be able to hire doyle and crew. ( could he supply 20 spotters?, i want the best chances possible) and does anyone know how to contact mr Devil?. I want to strike a bargain with him. for the real record. can't all the little boys and Girls just get along. if it were illegal to use guides, or gangs of guides the state would stop it. so untill then just stop the bichin. I truly believe that if all the mossback haters had the income to hire them and try for bulls like those presented. most would crash down his doors to get in line. can't people just enjoy the fact that utah is the premier state for trophy elk and hope that one day they will get a shot something at similar.
> 
> and if i may address the issue of multiple eyes , or crews. i would much rather see a crew of individual guys that work for the common goal than a family of 10-15 doing the same. i have witnessed the antics of families helping one hunter and holy crud. the garbage i saw was so far worse than anything these other crews would ever do. in fact i will say that most of the B.S. thas is said against the mullet crew likely were perpetrated by some loving family member from another crew. If you have a group of individuals , they self police themselves, if you have a crew of family, the truth, and right and wrong are easily erased and weird stuff happens.


Well stated!


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Only pro! With one sentence well over two thousand views, 18 pages of replys and still go strong!!! Pro have any more pics of great bulls, post em you could crash the forum!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

soules2007 said:


> Only pro! With one sentence well over two thousand views, 18 pages of replys and still go strong!!! Pro have any more pics of great bulls, post em you could crash the forum!


Come on soules2007, the man love that is going on here is becoming a little overbearing. -)O(- :wink:  Pro has a way of stirring stuff up even when it wasn't intended, like on this thread. I will have to say this new forum has been much milder than the old IMO, besides a few crazies. Pro has been much milder, what has gotten into him. 8)


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

*Pro * won't post picture's....

He said it is one on his *quirks !!*. :?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

jahan said:


> soules2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Only pro! With one sentence well over two thousand views, 18 pages of replys and still go strong!!! Pro have any more pics of great bulls, post em you could crash the forum!
> ...


It is the new kinder, gentler PRO. 8)



> Pro won't post picture's....
> 
> He said it is one on his quirks !!.


Not a "quirk", but a "principle" of mine. This is a perfect example of why I DON'T post pictures. There are too many who chose to attack those who do post pictures. I could post several pictures of world class animals I have, but they all mean something to ME, so why would I post them so people can say how "unethical" or a dozen other things about them, and thus 'take away' from what I see when I look at them?

If .45 and fixedblade hadn't dogged me on their Trophy Jack-rabbit hunt, I would be willing to share a few with them. :evil: :wink: :mrgreen:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Not a "quirk", but a "principle" of mine. This is a perfect example of why I DON'T post pictures. There are too many who chose to attack those who do post pictures. I could post several pictures of world class animals I have, but they all mean something to ME, so why would I post them so people can say how "unethical" or a dozen other things about them, and thus 'take away' from what I see when I look at them?
> 
> If .45 and fixedblade hadn't dogged me on their Trophy Jack-rabbit hunt, I would be willing to share a few with them. :evil: :wink: :mrgreen:


Whoa there Cowboy !! O*--

I didn't mean to put sliver's under your saddle.... :?

I was just repeating what you said on the last forum....not only that ( ouch ) I agree with you..I had posted some pictures of myself, with some fish, and Fatbass made fun of my height... .........You see? I am pretty big for my size... _(O)_


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

.45 said:


> Whoa there Cowboy !! O*--
> 
> I didn't mean to put sliver's under your saddle.... :?
> 
> I was just repeating what you said on the last forum....not only that ( ouch ) I agree with you..I had posted some pictures of myself, with some fish, and Fatbass made fun of my height... .........You see? I am pretty big for my size... _(O)_


I have NEVER heard of "slivers under your saddle" before, is that anything like "a burr under your saddle"? :?

You would relate well to my teenage daughter with comments like, "I am pretty big for my size", she has a saying, "he looks older than he looks", and then there is the Budwiser ad with Dennis Green saying, "they are who we thought they were". :?

I haven't ever posted and have no intention of ever doing so. 8)


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

I was gonna say 'chaps'....but I thought you would think of some English guys.... :mrgreen: Why....I didn't know you were so Cowboy savvy.. :shock:


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Jahan : from the deep south, somtime out in the swamps it is all about the man love!!! Ps you sound cute. send me a PM! (ever watch deliverance?)  :wink: :lol:


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