# Pointer Vs. Pointer



## Chief Squatting Dog

Ok, I have a great retriever but he is not so great at the whole upland game quail/pheasant/partridge thing. Besides that he needs a buddy. I have been doing my research I think I have eliminated the Wire Hair, from all the reports they are barkers, and have a tenacious disposition. I think I am leaning toward German Shorthair Pointer or the English Pointer. It must get along with the family and other dogs. Preferably not a barker (of course I can fix that). It must have an exceptional nose on it to. I want to come to a consensus by early spring and acquire whatever I should decide. That being said the retriever I have is a male, and I am leaning toward a female. Any thought on that. Any advice would be great. I have had dogs since the day I was born, but they were mostly working dogs not gun dogs. And after this last season with a hunting dog I will never look back. any and all advice would be great.

Thanks


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## Tripple FFF

OK this one always starts a good arguement! I am also adding a new pointer to our mangy pack but we decided on a wire hair a DD and cant wait for it to come I always thought short hairs had saw dust for brains, but I dont know how well trained any of the short hairs were trained that I hunted with as a kid but I like them when they hunted in the right zip code, and we did not spend most of the hunt hunting lost dogs....so lets have it short hair vs wire hair?


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## TAK

Chief Squatting Dog said:


> Ok, I have a great retriever but he is not so great at the whole upland game quail/pheasant/partridge thing. Besides that he needs a buddy. *I have been doing my research I think I have eliminated the Wire Hair, from all the reports they are barkers, and have a tenacious disposition.* I think I am leaning toward German Shorthair Pointer or the English Pointer. It must get along with the family and other dogs. Preferably not a barker (of course I can fix that). It must have an exceptional nose on it to. I want to come to a consensus by early spring and acquire whatever I should decide. That being said the retriever I have is a male, and I am leaning toward a female. Any thought on that. Any advice would be great. I have had dogs since the day I was born, but they were mostly working dogs not gun dogs. And after this last season with a hunting dog I will never look back. any and all advice would be great.
> 
> Thanks


And just where do you get this book, or information? Wow... If someone told you this they are a FREAKIN RAATARD! 
If you have a Lab, or as you said retriever, I would recommend a VDD or a GWP just because they can tend to be a closer working dog and would be more complmentive towards the retrievers hunting style! Notice I said TEND, some can flat out Boogie!

Dude... Dogs bark for many reasons, Hell I have GSP's and of all the ones I have barked a time or two. One of them never stopped barking... Look up "Western"
DOGS ARE WHAT WE MAKE OF THEM! Throw the dog in a kennel and let it out to hunt on opening day you might have ya some problems!

What you should learn is a GWP can be somewhat PREY DRIVEN ON FUR, some but not all, OK the majority can be. Yet smart to know when to say when. UGLY AS HELL, but that is what a UGLY DOG OWNER LIKES TO HERE! If ya have a cat you might not want a GERMAN type dog. I had a Brit that was Hell on the kittys! And to boot there is a guy asking how to get his BRITTANY to stop BARKING!


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## TAK

Tripple FFF said:


> OK this one always starts a good arguement! I am also adding a new pointer to our mangy pack but we decided on a wire hair a DD and cant wait for it to come I always thought short hairs had saw dust for brains, but I dont know how well trained any of the short hairs were trained that I hunted with as a kid but I like them when they hunted in the right zip code, and we did not spend most of the hunt hunting lost dogs....so lets have it short hair vs wire hair?


No need to.... I thought the same thing about GSP's when I had Brits and my buddy had them run off SOB! Then I got one and found that with some age and some time spent with them they all was about the same... Now I have GSP, would own just about any type of good dog as far as hunting goes.....

I still have a soft spot in my heart for the Brits.... And for some freakin reason I think a bearded lady is HOT! I guess the guys are too but I did not want to come all the way out yet!


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## Chief Squatting Dog

Ok like I said I am new to the gun dog thing and not familiar with DD,GWP,or VDD. EP= English Pointer GSP=German Shorthair Pointer. DD? VDD?. I wouldn’t be opposed to a Wire Hair, having never even been around one. I can only speculate as to their disposition. So that is why I hope to glean from you gentlemen and ladies your own experiences. Oh and what is “PREY DRIVEN ON FUR”.

Thanks again


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## FULLHOUSE

Chief Squatting Dog said:


> Oh and what is "PREY DRIVEN ON FUR".


I'm guessing rabbits and other furry animals should duck into their holes while the dog goes by?


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

1. Prey drive is the extent that the dog will try to chase, or "prey" on other creatures. German and wirehaired breeds in general have lots of prey drive. They'll not only find birds, but animals with fur coats as well (mostly rabbits but the occasional raccoon, skunk, coyote, cougar, etc.) 

2. Stop listening to whomever told you that a specific breed barks too much or whatever. Watch a few episodes of Cesar Milan and learn how to be in charge of your dog. I'm not saying that a wirehaired dog is what you want (though I have one and love the Lab/Wirehair combo). I'm saying that any breed can be a barker or a biter depending on what type of ownership and guidance they've had. I've got a wirehaired dog who is currently taking a nap on the bed with my three-year-old. He's got a gentler disposition than my Lab and he never makes a peep of noise. He tried to bark at first as a pup, but then learned that bad things happen to barkers and good things happen to quiet dogs. I also try to leave him in a situation that doesn't cause him anxiety. He's got food, water, shelter, and room to roam free in the backyard, along with his best buddy (the Lab).

3. Why get a female of another breed if you have a male Lab? Isn't that asking for trouble? Or maybe one or both will be neutered/spayed. If so, great. Also, females that aren't spayed will often come into heat right during hunting season. Sucks to be that hunter!

4. What type of terrain will you be hunting most often? I ask because certain dogs are better suited to different tasks.


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## TAK

Prey driven on fur in the bird dog world is sorta a bad thing. I hate to have my dogs chase game I do not intend to take. Such as Rabbits, Deer, Speed Goats, pretty much anything besides birds.
Now the German testing of the breeds require them to run, trail and dispatch a live fox/**** or somthing to that effect. In the more recent times we just like them to hunt birds!

Honestly if you own cats I would not get a older, started GWP. Maybe a puppy and teach it not to kill your cat, but really that can be any dog. My kids have a lab that we keep in the house and this cat has made a home here???? Hate cats! Well the lab is cool with it and plays, even my female GSP don't care to eat the cat, but the two male GSP's want to pick thier teeth with its bones!

Your best source to learn about each breed would be to look into trials and testing of the breeds that catch your eye, from there pick a good litter and mold the dog to what ever you want it to be....

You can also get really good information about dogs here and some other forums.

Here is an example of Prey Drive... The SOB is to **** stuburn to realize these things are bad news... This was the 2nd time that day he did this! Now don't thing that any other dog would not do this also, but with German dogs you have more chance of it....


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## uthunter

TAK that picture makes me Cringe every time you post it.


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## lehi

Did you just diss the wirehair? Don't let Tex-o-Bob read this.... :wink: 

I read a book called "Training the Versatile Hunting Dog", The author (Chuck Johnson) breeds German Wirehaired Pointers. You should give it a read.

I think if you get a puppy you can socialize it around cats, dogs and other humans and I think it would turn out to be a good dog.

I would love to have a wirehair, but I want to first fully train my GSP. :mrgreen:


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## Nor-tah

I think English Pointers are just dead sexy... 12 volt had a male named Cowboy that was one beautiful dog. 
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13133&p=152667&hilit=cowboy#p152667
If I got a pointer, that would be it. My next dog will most likely be a Brit though. They fit the description you started with. They are awesome with kids and love to hunt birds.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> My next dog will most likely be a Brit though. They fit the description you started with. They are awesome with kids and love to hunt birds.


I didn't say it before, but I was actually thinking the same thing. The thread was titled pointer vs. pointer, but maybe a Brittany fits the bill best here.


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## TAK

Nor-tah said:


> I think English Pointers are just dead sexy... 12 volt had a male named Cowboy that was one beautiful dog.
> viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13133&p=152667&hilit=cowboy#p152667
> If I got a pointer, that would be it. My next dog will most likely be a Brit though. They fit the description you started with. They are awesome with kids and love to hunt birds.


I liked Cowboy! I did some training on the lad....
Even with the cow licking his butt he was not going to break!


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## Chief Squatting Dog

Ok, the Britney seems like it might be a nice choice. Do they like water? and what about their coats, they look like they would be a magnet for burs and things. Oh and by the way Cowboy is one sexy dog. That is amazing, I love nothing more than the simple beauty of a hunting dog. Just look at the mussels, and the focus. AMAZING.


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## birdman

I'm partial to the brittany idea. Great with the kids and as a house dog. Coat does collect a lot of burrs however. I can't keep mine out of the water but I don't know if that's typical. She's as likely to swim across a lake as she is to go around it.


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## Tripple FFF

I have owned a few brits and springers both and that is the only thing I do not like about the spaniel breed a day hunting means a night pulling burrs and if you are not carefull enough a day at the vets getting fox tails pulled out of thier ears.


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## Nor-tah

Good looking dog Birdman!!


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## TAK

Chief Squatting Dog said:


> Ok, the Britney seems like it might be a nice choice. Do they like water? and what about their coats, they look like they would be a magnet for burs and things. Oh and by the way Cowboy is one sexy dog. That is amazing, I love nothing more than the simple beauty of a hunting dog. Just look at the mussels, and the focus. AMAZING.


All my Brits would swim like fish.... GSP's are great water dogs but I have known a few that swam like rocks!
The coat can pick up things. That is just part of the maintance of one of them. Some brits have longer hair, some don't.

I dare say that a Brit is one of the best dogs around to do about anything you ask of them. As other breeds also just Brits honestly do there best to please all the time. I think they are driven by that more than any other breed..... JMO!


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## Dekashika

I have owned/hunted: brittanies, ESP, GSP, GWP, Sringers, labs, and setters. 

I seemed to find my happy place with the German Shorthair Pointer. Good luck.


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## cfarnwide

TAK said:


> Chief Squatting Dog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, the Britney seems like it might be a nice choice. Do they like water? and what about their coats, they look like they would be a magnet for burs and things. Oh and by the way Cowboy is one sexy dog. That is amazing, I love nothing more than the simple beauty of a hunting dog. Just look at the mussels, and the focus. AMAZING.
> 
> 
> 
> All my Brits would swim like fish.... GSP's are great water dogs but I have known a few that swam like rocks!
> The coat can pick up things. That is just part of the maintance of one of them. Some brits have longer hair, some don't.
> 
> I dare say that a Brit is one of the best dogs around to do about anything you ask of them. As other breeds also just Brits honestly do there best to please all the time. I think they are driven by that more than any other breed..... JMO!
Click to expand...

Ive found everything TAK has said to be 100% true of brittanies. Especially their drive to please. GREAT family pets. They are HIGHLY intelligent and the worst thing for them is lack of exercise. Keep this in mind. If you cannot devote daily play and a little exercise, you will have one of those "hyper" brittanies.

And yes, brittanies will take to water just fine. They are thin skinned though and wont take to harsh late season waterfowl.

Just a few quick photos of my little girl Im so proud of.


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## elk-hunter

Get a pointer. Easy fix.


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## InvaderZim

elk-hunter said:


> Get a pointer. Easy fix.


If you want a dog that runs off, don't retrieve, don't get into the water, don't listen, don't have a friggin brain, and don't have a personality...get a pointer!

Most any other breed will do you good, but you can't go wrong with a german dog, of the short or wire haired variety.

Also a good setter, with inbred natural ability is a good choice.

cj


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## TEX-O-BOB

> with *inbred* natural ability


That's the trouble with setters, all that inbreeding... They are nothing more than a hairy version of an EP!


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## fixed blade XC-3

InvaderZim said:


> elk-hunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get a pointer. Easy fix.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want a dog that runs off, don't retrieve, don't get into the water, don't listen, don't have a friggin brain, and don't have a personality...get a pointer!
> 
> Most any other breed will do you good, but you can't go wrong with a german dog, of the short or wire haired variety.
> 
> Also a good setter, with inbred natural ability is a good choice.
> 
> cj
Click to expand...

Plus, setters are really pretty!


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## TEX-O-BOB

Pretty don't get birds in the bag.

Pam Anderson is pretty, but she's as dumb as a bag of hammers.


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## Nor-tah

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Pretty don't get birds in the bag.
> 
> Pam Anderson is pretty, but *she's as dumb as a bag of hammers.*


 :lol: :lol: that is pretty dumb. Post of the day!


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## InvaderZim

TEX-O-BOB said:


> with *inbred* natural ability
> 
> 
> 
> That's the trouble with setters, all that inbreeding... They are nothing more than a hairy version of an EP!
Click to expand...

Just cause yer setter has more beauty than brains don't mean they're all like that! Mine are smart as a whip! And the one that aint ruined yet is **** pretty too. You can have both!

Seriously though, and this is good council for everybody reading this, an English Pointer is NOT a good _first pointing dog_. Most have very little natural ability and are very hard to train (at least to get the fullest potential out of yer pup, and especially for a novice.)

If you're used to labs and brits, an E. pointer will drive you up the wall, and trust me...you will not be satisfied!


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## elk-hunter

Zim your entire post is full of CHIT!! Do you really honestly believe that stuff you wrote?? No natural ability? Ha, I would probably say the EASIEST dog to train for a novice would be a pointer with a ton of POINT. There are thousands of foot bred pointers that kick butt all over the country hunting all sorts of upland birds from the north to the south. You think every pointer is bred for horseback trials? Dont be insane!!  

Dont let sterotypes cloud your judgment.


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## InvaderZim

Elkhunter, 

I have seen enough pointers run and trained to make a fair critique. And I stand behind my critique.

The kid wanted an honest, unjaded, unbiased opinion of the breed. I am giving it.

Yes, the pointer has "point" but you HAVE TO TRAIN FOR EVERYTHING ELSE! EVERYTHING! And the training aint easy. They listen about as good as a clump of dirt. They have as much brains as a rock (you may have just owned pointers and gsp's so you have no frame of reference on what constitutes a smart dog, but get yerslef a setter...then ask the same question.)

And if the kid is used to owning flushers, the jolt to his system from owning an e. pointer will surely kill him!

The e. pointer is best suited to a professional trainer. I’ve seen many pointers run, and the very best have to have the training REAMED down their throats EVERY DAY! And sure, when it works, it really works. Beautiful retrieve, beautiful point, honor, obedience, etc. But I’ll tell ya honestly…I’m aint got the gumption to do it, and neither do most novices!

I might be full of chit, but I know bird dogs.


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## elk-hunter

Zim you are around pointers that are bred to the hilt to be hard charging winning trial dogs. Obviously not the dog that a new pointing dog owner would be looking for. There are literally thousands of litters bred each year that are for the foot handler and foot hunter. Hell there are pointers winning cover dog trials week in and week out. 

And exactly how many pointers you been around? 20-30 at the MAX!! And almost all of those are out of the same Honky Tonk Attitude lines which are notorious for being hard headed? The few that show up to NSTRA trials? The few that show up to the horseback trials? Carsons two pointers? Shanes pointer? Hardly enough to be able to make a "fair and honest critique of ANY breed"... Utah is not exactly a hot spot for pointers in the US. I guess the thousands and thousands of new pointing dog owners across the country who buy a pointer as their first dog have it all wrong.

There are many faults with each breed, you think a fur chasing dog would be a good start for a newbie with no point that wants to chase skunks? I can think of lots problems that could arise there. There are problems that would arise from any breed out there. 

As for the smarts of a pointer I feel they are very smart. Find birds like no other breed out there in my opinion. Handle the heat better than any dog out there. Have more endurance than any dog out there. 

But I agree with you on some points, a new pointing dog owner should get a slower moving less prey drive dog to start with. Then they can always upgrade!


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## InvaderZim

My responses are embedded below in red:



elk-hunter said:


> Zim you are around pointers that are bred to the hilt to be hard charging winning trial dogs. Obviously not the dog that a new pointing dog owner would be looking for. There are literally thousands of litters bred each year that are for the foot handler and foot hunter. Hell there are pointers winning cover dog trials week in and week out. You're right, but this only covers one aspect of my critique...the run off. It doesn't cover brains, trainability, retrieve, etc. There are several good lines of e. pointer for the foot hunter, if that's their choice, such as the Elhew bred dogs. But again, now you just have that same uncontrollable dog...that's working close range!
> 
> And exactly how many pointers you been around? The few that show up to NSTRA trials? The few that show up to the horseback trials? Hardly enough to be able to make the judgements you are passing on the pointer... Utah is not exactly a hot spot for pointers in the US. I guess the thousands and thousands of new pointing dog owners across the country who buy a pointer as there first dog have it all wrong. Not every first time e. pointer owner is dissatisfied with their purchase, especially those that know what they're getting into. But I suspect there are a fair portion that wish the got a "more manageable" dog. Elkhunter, I have hunted with many e. pointers. Some of them I have liked&#8230;others were less than tolerable. I've seen many of them run, talked about them with several pro trainers, and have several great friends that own them. If their reading this they're probably driving over here to kick me in the junk right now! Trust me, I know enough to make an honest critique.
> 
> There are many faults with each breed, you think a strong powered fur chasing dogs would be a good start for a newbie? I can think of lots problems that could arise there. There are problems that would arise from any breed out there. Certainly this is true. Any breed has it fopauxs. But in contradiction to the e. pointer, the German dogs are generally easy to train, come with great inherent instincts, and are at least slightly smarter than pointers. Not my breed of choice, but would I own one over a pointer&#8230;YES!
> 
> As for the smarts of a pointer I feel they are very smart. Find birds like no other breed out there in my opinion. Handle the heat better than any dog out there. Have more endurance than any dog out there. A pointers bird finding ability have nothing to do with his brain. But I will admit, pointers have great noses (second only to Gordon Setters) and do better in the heat and have more endurance than any other breed. But back to the question at hand, does this poor flusher owner need that? Can he/she even stomach it? If the dang thing is "runnoft" what good is the nose? And speed and endurance only add to the problem!
> 
> But I agree with you on some points, a new pointing dog owner should get a slower moving less drive dog to start with. Then they can always upgrade!


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## TEX-O-BOB

> But I agree with you on some points, a new pointing dog owner should get a slower moving less prey drive dog to start with.


 :lol: You're kidding, right? "Prey drive" and "pointer" is an oxymoron.


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## elk-hunter

Zim as I mentioned, you have probably been around 20-30 pointers in your life at the most. And 80 percent of those dogs are from the same Attitude line. To say that has given you the knowledge to make any sort of HONEST opinion on pointers is laughable at best. Nothing more than an uneducated opinion based on the VERY FEW dogs you have actually seen. I have probably seen as many GWP's as you have pointers and I could not give anyone any sort of opinion other than I have heard they chase fur. Does that make me an expert that can offer any sort of advice to anyone? If they were as bad as you state them to be the breed would no longer be in use today. 

Hell if he wants a dog to plod along in front of him and point a random bird get a Spinone or a pudelpointer...  But if he is interested in a very well bred pointing dog that is bred for the foot hunter then there are probably a few thousand different breeders in the US that could help him. Or he could buy one of the random GSP litters on KSL. As I said any decently bred dog out of a respectable breed would do well for what he wants.


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## elk-hunter

TEX-O-BOB said:


> But I agree with you on some points, a new pointing dog owner should get a slower moving less prey drive dog to start with.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: You're kidding, right? "Prey drive" and "pointer" is an oxymoron.
Click to expand...

Your right, I guess in early september 75 degree heat when my pointer is charging up hills at noon and hitting every objective he should be looking for a bird could be mistaken for prey drive?? But your dog would be dead under a tree from heat exhaustion by 9 AM. I guess I should of said "bird drive" not "prey drive". I could care less if my dog lacks the drive to kill a skunk.


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## TAK

TEX-O-BOB said:


> But I agree with you on some points, a new pointing dog owner should get a slower moving less prey drive dog to start with.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: You're kidding, right? "Prey drive" and "pointer" is an oxymoron.
Click to expand...

Did you not see the picture Landon posted of his Pointer that ate the pine pig?


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## TAK

I love these threads!


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## birdman

Always the same, calling a man's mother ugly would be less insulting than badmouthing his choice of dog.


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## elk-hunter

Ha, like I said I think there are great dogs in all breeds. Just cracks me up when someone has seen maybe 20 different pointers in his whole life and 90 percent of those are from the same line and that gives him the knowledge to critique and entire breed.  

Zim you know I like you though, regardless of your breed of choice.... someone has to buy those designer breeds.... :mrgreen:


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## InvaderZim

I suspect we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

Origional poster of this thread, if you're still reading this, DO NOT GET A POINTER!

You'll thank me later.


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## cfarnwide

birdman said:


> calling a man's mother ugly would be less insulting than badmouthing his choice of dog.


Ha! That is so true its almost not even funny!


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## cfarnwide

Seriously though... get a dog that fits you!

When I was first looking at getting a bird dog I researched and visited with all the different breeds to figure out which would fit me best. I went in with the mindset of *friend first*, _hunter second_. You can have pick of the litter from the best hunting dogs in the world and still end up with a dog that wont hunt.


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## Riverrat77

I'm jumping in here late but I may have the wife talked into another hunting dog. I have seen the ugly dogs, hunted over GSP's and flushers and I have a dog right now that will retrieve anything I shoot and retrieve it to hand. What I want is a dog that will hunt and find upland birds, hold them until the flush so that my lab can retrieve the birds I shoot. It'll have to be a family dog too, getting along with my Lab and the wife's pug. There is a cat in the house but that issue will be addressed right away as well. I'm seriously thinking about an ugly dog.... they're growing on me the more I research em. I think the first couple pictures I sent the wife scared her though.... :lol: Tex, tell me honestly why I should get a wirehair? I don't want a GSP... the ones I've seen have been just crackheads and I don't have the desire to spend the majority of my time dealing with that nonsense. I've been around Brittanys... they're good little dogs and were great family pets from what I could tell but I'm not sure thats what I'm after. Fur drive in a dog doesn't hurt my feelings, other than when I spend my day shooting jacks instead of birds.  I certainly don't want porcupine issues because that looks like it really sucks for both the dog and owner, but I understand it could happen to Buddy too if he decided to check out the poky end of a slow moving critter....

I suppose in all fairness to Rick (GSPMan) that I should say his dog Rusty was a very well behaved and well trained GSP that was a pleasure to hunt behind. The others I've been around were on warp speed as soon as they got some open ground to run on.


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## TEX-O-BOB

> Tex, tell me honestly why I should get a wirehair?


Well, I can't tell you to get one after you saying you, A. Have a cat. B. Want your lab to do the retrieving. C. Don't want any porky troubles. Honestly, the wirehair will out retrieve your lab on land 100% of the time and 75% of the time in the water. They are fantastic natural, and very competitive retrievers, they HATE getting beat out on a retrieve. Don't let that short tail fool you, they are great water dogs, and the cold doesn't bother them one bit. If you don't socialize your GWP with the cat when he is very young, he will eat your cat. ALL dogs get into porkys. That's just the way it is. Some more than others. Most the German bred dogs will have good prey drive. That drive is what gives them the "edge" and the grit they need to be great dogs. Unfortunately, that drive can also be a pain in the arse when you run into fur. GWP's are great family dogs and if you get one with the right coat they don't shed much either.


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## Riverrat77

So, if I was to look at one, it would do the retrieving just as much if not better than my dog now? Buddy isn't the type to go and take a bird or toy away from another dog (that really bugs the hell out of me when other dogs do it) but he will retrieve everything that falls on his own little time frame. He's just not real competitive and I'd like a dog with a little more umph at least on the searching end. So an ugly (said with a smile) dog will more than likely outretrieve and outdo the dog I have now? Buddy gets kinda snarly and snappy when other dogs try and take stuff from him so maybe thats not such a great idea after all. :? Buddy has yet to get into porcupines, but I guess if I spend much time in the mountains, it'll be a matter of time. I guess I'm the guy other folks were talking about who doesn't want a high strung dog I'm constantly going to be fighting for control, but I do want a dog with a bit of prey drive so that finding birds to flush isn't solely on this "two footer" when I'd like the four footer to be covering a little more ground for me. My nose isn't quite what it used to be so I'm sure an "upland" dog would do a little better job than I ever will. :wink:

I'm not worried about the cat.... she's a real b*tch and spends most of her time in my stepdaughters room under the bed anyway, until night time. It'd actually probably make my day if one of the dogs gave her whatfor, but I won't ever admit that to my wife. I hate cats anyway for the record.


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## elk-hunter

Riverrat there are plenty of different pointing dog breeds out there that would do what you are looking for. The difference between an out of control dog and an in control dog is only training. If your looking for the best breed that you wont have to train I dont know what to tell you to get. Also the reward for a pointing dog holding its point and waiting till you shoot it is the retrieve. You would not want to take that away from the dog.. JMO. Your best bet in this part of the country would be one of the german breeds. Plenty of good bred foot hunting shorthairs out there that would do what you want, same with the GWP.


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## Riverrat77

elk-hunter said:


> Riverrat there are plenty of different pointing dog breeds out there that would do what you are looking for. The difference between an out of control dog and an in control dog is only training. If your looking for the best breed that you wont have to train I dont know what to tell you to get. Also the reward for a pointing dog holding its point and waiting till you shoot it is the retrieve. You would not want to take that away from the dog.. JMO. Your best bet in this part of the country would be one of the german breeds. Plenty of good bred foot hunting shorthairs out there that would do what you want, same with the GWP.


The training part is what I'm actually looking forward to. My lab.... well, I kinda cheated. He made it easy on me to turn him into a hunting dog but training one from the ground up is going to be a fun (hopefully) and rewarding experience for both of us. I really do want an ugly dog but may wind up waiting on one until Buddy gets too old to even go out chasing upland.... (he's about 8 right now if the vet was right on his initial age when I got him) Right now, I may just wind up waiting, researching more and kinda figuring out what I really want to do. I love labs... I've always had em and they're great....but as much as some of my friends bird hunt for upland stuff, I kinda feel like I'm going to battle shorthanded with a bootlicker at my heels. 8)


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## TAK

(making a sound of clearing my throat)... But if anyone has one of them nasty knot-headed-run off GSP's that they just want to put a bullet in...
I WILL TAKE IT!


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## TEX-O-BOB

Wadda ya gonna do with TWO of em! :? :evil:


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## TAK

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Wadda ya gonna do with TWO of em! :? :evil:


I aint got one yet!

Blue's idea of gettin the birds is a tad diff. than mine!


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## Huge29

TEX-O-BOB said:


> ALL dogs get into porkys.


That has been my experience. There may be some that are better about not doing a second time, but...


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## elk-hunter

I am pretty lucky, never ran into a porky yet...


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## Chief Squatting Dog

I am going to go with a GWP, now I need to find a puppy that will be ready late spring. Any suggestions.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

> I am going to go with a GWP, now I need to find a puppy that will be ready late spring. Any suggestions.


Read this thread:http://utahbirddogs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6624&sid=fa199c29fb75fe63650bd504cefdf60e


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## TAK

Chief Squatting Dog said:


> I am going to go with a GWP, now I need to find a puppy that will be ready late spring. Any suggestions.


Start here!!! NFC FC BACKWOODS SURE SHOT WILSON

Then... http://www.bonepointkennels.com/Litters.htm scroll down a bit you'll see it!

Then it is going to lead you here http://www.backwoodsbirddogs.com/ So rob the wife purse of some stamps and send your deposit in!


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## TAK

Riverrat77 said:


> I don't want a GSP... the ones I've seen have been just crackheads and I don't have the desire to spend the majority of my time dealing with that nonsense. .


Unless you have a Toyota!


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## Riverrat77

LOL.... That works for my wife's pug but I doubt he is going to be real comfortable running the chukar hills. :lol: As for the upland dogs, I'm going to make the trip to Provo for the NSTRA trial on Saturday to see some wirehairs and hopefully some other good dogs in action. It should be interesting... hopefully I can pry the wife out of bed so that she can come see why I want one so badly. If not, then she's out of the loop and I'll make the trip anyway. 8)


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## TAK

Riverrat77 said:


> LOL.... That works for my wife's pug but I doubt he is going to be real comfortable running the chukar hills. :lol: As for the upland dogs, I'm going to make the trip to Provo for the NSTRA trial on Saturday to see some wirehairs and hopefully some other good dogs in action. It should be interesting... hopefully I can pry the wife out of bed so that she can come see why I want one so badly. If not, then she's out of the loop and I'll make the trip anyway. 8)


I only know of a few GWP... and your in Luck they are Marks! You can take a look at them in action and annie up your deposit then!

I will in no way try to sway you into buying a GSP.... I figure there is enough bird finding machines in this world! :mrgreen:


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## Riverrat77

TAK said:


> I only know of a few GWP... and your in Luck they are Marks! You can take a look at them in action and annie up your deposit then!
> 
> I will in no way try to sway you into buying a GSP.... I figure there is enough bird finding machines in this world! :mrgreen:


Don't get me wrong TAK.... I like GSP's.... most seem friendly as all get out and they seem like great dogs, I just don't know that I've got the tools or patience to harness that kind of go fast all the time energy they seem to have. GSPMan's dog Rusty was very cool... great disposition and hunted like his life depended on it (and he loved that challenge) but I don't know. I guess in my head, I'm thinking of them as the screaming banshee running through the uplands who all of a sudden freezes like they're stone when a whiff of bird smacks em in the lips. I'm probably totally wrong and thats why I'm looking forward to this trial.... I have a chance to actually see some of the different breeds in action and can kinda get some idea by talking to several folks (hopefully) what I'd be in for if I bought one of their breed of dogs.


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## TAK

Riverrat77 said:


> Don't get me wrong TAK.... I like GSP's.... most seem friendly as all get out and they seem like great dogs, I just don't know that I've got the tools or patience to harness that kind of go fast all the time energy they seem to have. GSPMan's dog Rusty was very cool... great disposition and hunted like his life depended on it (and he loved that challenge) but I don't know. *Young man what more are you wanting? *_*I guess in my head, I'm thinking of them as the screaming banshee running through the uplands who all of a sudden freezes like they're stone when a whiff of bird smacks em in the lips.*_ *Again what more do you want? If you have such bad luck with dogs that DO THIS, please, I will take them off your hands!*I'm probably totally wrong and thats why I'm looking forward to this trial.... I have a chance to actually see some of the different breeds in action and can kinda get some idea by talking to several folks (hopefully) what I'd be in for if I bought one of their breed of dogs.


 :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Riverrat77

How hard is it to keep up with a dog going all out like that? I see your point... you want a dog that is going to use every last drop of energy to get on a bird.... I'm worried about me being able to hack it. :lol: I guess you probably get in shape after having to run to find a dog that you just know is on point just over the next ridge... or is that where the collar comes into play?

Oh... and I don't have a problem with dogs that are like that.... my dog isn't anywhere near that speed, so I guess thats why I'm concerned about how hard its going to be to go from a plodding retriever to an all out, balls to the wall race across the uplands.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

To each their own, Riverrat. I've got one of the closest working wirehaired dogs around. We come home with plenty of birds; I dare say more than most on pheasants. Plus I can hunt ducks and geese all winter long. Some guys here have dogs that are on top of the mountain the moment you let them out of the truck. I've seen it with my own eyes. Some of them also come home with piles of birds. 

It's all in what you want to do. Are you planning to trial the dog or hunt chukars almost exclusively? Get a shorter haired, bigger running dog like TAK described. If you have a bum knee like I do or you're an old man, get a close working dog like I own. Do you want to hunt both upland and waterfowl? Get something wirehaired for sure. Are you exclusively a grouse man? Get an English setter and be done with it. Just decide exactly what you want the dog to do and that will tell you what kind of dog you want.


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## TAK

Riverrat77 said:


> How hard is it to keep up with a dog going all out like that? I see your point... you want a dog that is going to use every last drop of energy to get on a bird.... I'm worried about me being able to hack it. :lol: I guess you probably get in shape after having to run to find a dog that you just know is on point just over the next ridge... or is that where the collar comes into play?
> 
> Oh... and I don't have a problem with dogs that are like that.... my dog isn't anywhere near that speed, so I guess thats why I'm concerned about how hard its going to be to go from a plodding retriever to an all out, balls to the wall race across the uplands.


I would be fibbing if I told ya that you don't end up walking a bit faster, but honestly they are pointing dogs. They should hold the game as long as it takes. I have young dogs right now and only one can be trusted, so a hunt is very pleasant, the other two.... Ya best get there or they may take'm out for ya.

And this is not a ploy to get you to get a GSP.... I like them but Pointers and setters and Wirehairs all have run like any of my GSP and anyone elses for that matter. You can get slower working lines, and here is the big kicker.... You can mold any dog to what you want, some mold nie and some take some more molding! Like I posted about... To me them Wirehairs sound like the bomb! I like Wirehairs! Mark Marigoni sp? is planning a litter. I like his dogs to, I just like that Sure Shot Wilson dog!


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## TAK

I agree to some extent with BDogger.... My dogs would freeze to the pond if they had to sit in a blind.... that is if you can get them to sit! A wirehair is going to take the cold much better, but I don't buy into having a diff dog for all types of birds... OK Ducks, but I don't think ducks are cool in the least.
Any of my dogs can run over the hill but I can also guide phez hunters on a preserve....

The key is finding a good breed, then finding the best line or lines in that breed and having sound training!


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## Riverrat77

BirdDogger said:


> Some guys here have dogs that are on top of the mountain the moment you let them out of the truck. Thats kinda what I am worried about and what I don't really want to have happen.
> 
> It's all in what you want to do. Are you planning to trial the dog or hunt chukars almost exclusively? Get a shorter haired, bigger running dog like TAK described. If you have a bum knee like I do or you're an old man, get a close working dog like I own. Do you want to hunt both upland and waterfowl? Get something wirehaired for sure. Are you exclusively a grouse man? Get an English setter and be done with it. Just decide exactly what you want the dog to do and that will tell you what kind of dog you want.


I will be needing a dog that can hunt grouse, phez and chukars mostly with maybe a bit of quail hunting thrown in there. That being said, my legs aren't nearly as full of spring as they used to be so catching up to a big, far ranging dog is probably not going to be as productive or fun for me as having a dog that'll work at least a little closer (couple hundred yards or so). I am constantly invited to hunt with Tumblingwings but although his dog is great, not having my own upland dog to run kinda makes me hesitant to go hike around without a dog geared toward doing that kind of thing.... consequently, we haven't hunted together much lately since he won't hunt ducks and thats all my dog does. I won't be doing trials with the dog, just hunting with it as much as I can so both the dog and I get out and have some good times chasing birds of a different sort. I'll always love my dopey labs, but just looking to expand my horizons a little bit.

TAK, Mark is who I've been talking to and I've looked at the pedigrees and may wind up buying a puppy from him. Thats kinda why I'm going down to the trial this weekend, so I can see what is what and hopefully make up my mind for sure. I think I know what I want, but I'd like to see some dogs in action to help seal the deal.


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## TAK

Mark has Solid dogs! That is part of the game and the major part is what you do with it from there. Giving it lots of exposure to birds of any sort is going to make it a BIRD DOG!

Bird dogs are in the eye of the beholders, each of us like a differrnt style of dog. Me I like a big runner that hunts for me. I like one that will check back to make sure my phat arse is making it, bu still run hard enough to cover more ground that I am not going to cover. That is the point. I do expect them to cover every objective out there and make sure there is not a bush that has not been sniffed!
I hunt everything but ducks with my dogs, a few of them are brained up enough to learn the terrain I am in... Only one has been a knot head and runs to beat the band all the time and not bring it in while in thicker stuff... But that same dog jumps off of bridges!

Now you need to figure on a Male or Female! My best dog is a female, but the best was the Male that produced her. I am a Male dog fan, no heat cycles and no missed trials. Plus I only have to worry about one dog when a dog is in heat and with the female I have to worry about every dog!
Male of female you find them super dupper good dogs! 

The hardest problem you will face is the naming of it... Them Wirehair dude like them jacked up goofy names! I would name it Hitler! You will always get a look out hunting!


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## elk-hunter

If your goin to the trial dont watch any with a pointer, then you will see what I am talking about and you will want one. The dark side is a great place!!!


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## Riverrat77

TAK said:


> Now you need to figure on a Male or Female! My best dog is a female, but the best was the Male that produced her. I am a Male dog fan, no heat cycles and no missed trials. Plus I only have to worry about one dog when a dog is in heat and with the female I have to worry about every dog!
> Male of female you find them super dupper good dogs!
> 
> The hardest problem you will face is the naming of it... Them Wirehair dude like them jacked up goofy names! *I would name it Hitler! You will always get a look out hunting*!


LMAO!!! I don't know how well that would fly, but it would make me laugh anyway. :lol: I agree on the male dogs but I'd get him neutered since I'm not interested in diluting the breed any by accidental breeding accidents. I like my boys although I grew up with a little spayed yellow lab.

On the naming it... you can't just name it "Bob" or something like that?


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## TAK

Riverrat77 said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now you need to figure on a Male or Female! My best dog is a female, but the best was the Male that produced her. I am a Male dog fan, no heat cycles and no missed trials. Plus I only have to worry about one dog when a dog is in heat and with the female I have to worry about every dog!
> Male of female you find them super dupper good dogs!
> 
> The hardest problem you will face is the naming of it... Them Wirehair dude like them jacked up goofy names! *I would name it Hitler! You will always get a look out hunting*!
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO!!! I don't know how well that would fly, but it would make me laugh anyway. :lol: I agree on the male dogs but I'd get him neutered since I'm not interested in diluting the breed any by accidental breeding accidents. I like my boys although I grew up with a little spayed yellow lab.
> 
> On the naming it... you can't just name it "Bob" or something like that?
Click to expand...

I never have cut a male before... I am against it... No hard facts just I think it takes a little from them... for sure there nuts!


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

Grouse, phez, chukars, and quail...Any pointing breed will find all of those for you, RR. Don't buy into the hype and get a huge running dog if that idea doesn't appeal to you. When I'm after chukars I wish I had a bigger runner just because of the sheer amount of ground that sometimes must be covered. I still might get a setter or shorthair one of these days. At the end of the day, though, I prefer a close or medium running dog as long as it's got the nose. 

TAK mentioned that you can find a closer working dog in any of the breeds. That's true. You have to know what you're looking for, though. I believe one of Mark's GWP pups would serve you nicely.


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