# For, or against, Whitetail Deer expansion if Mule Deer numbers continue declining?



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Let’s face the hard truth here, even though it stings deeply.
With Utah predicted to double it’s human population in the next ten years or so, the writing is on the wall that our beloved Mule Deer population will never recover to it’s former glory years.
So… do we begin thinking of expanding the Whitetail Deer population that will tolerate higher human populations so that we may continue to have a huntable deer species for our kids and grandkids to hunt?
I’m thinking I would like to see Whitetails managed in certain parts of the State and if encountered out of those zones they are treated as an invasive species, no season/limit/weapon/license restriction.
Talk about an increased hunting opportunity!!
Please chime in.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

First, Mule Deer are hybrids of Blacktails and Whitetails, DNA analysis shows this.
Second, whitetails are already here in limited numbers, Cache valley area has them frequently although they've been seen down to Heber during rutting season.

There is no current management for whitetails specifically.

I think if they were going to come en'mass they'd already be here. For whatever reason, they never really established in Utah when they had the 10,000 years before humans showed up. They established to the east of us, somehow stopped on the edge of Utah and CO, but still came into hotter south western climates down south (coues).

-DallanC


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

DallanC said:


> First, Mule Deer are hybrids of Blacktails and Whitetails, DNA analysis shows this.
> Second, whitetails are already here in limited numbers, Cache valley area has them frequently although they've been seen down to Heber during rutting season.
> 
> There is no current management for whitetails specifically.
> ...


This.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I agree 100% with your statement as I know that is the scientific answer, but things are changing fast.
I respect you both, but you did not answer my question?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I've been saying introduce whitetails in certain areas for over 15 years on this site (and when this site was the other site).

BUT... you are making an assumption they will thrive here... when they had 10,000 years to self-introduce but didn't. That is a big red flag IMO.

-DallanC


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Thanks Dallan, I appreciate you weighing in.
If I was smarter I would quote in my analogies from post #94 from the ‘Draw for general elk, how to do it?’ thread.
That is how I’m thinking this might play out.
If you know how to do that please cut it in here.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MrShane said:


> I know there are a few, but should we promote their expansion through transplants?
> And while I will always respect a Mule Deer way more than a Whitetail, it is the yearly family group deer hunting opportunity I am after.
> If you are a hunter I liken it to the Mourning vs. Eurasian Dove issue Utah is facing right now:
> The Eurasians have really taken over in my traditional Dove haunts but I am having a fantastic time hunting them.
> ...


 This one?


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Middlefork,
Yes, you are an IT genius!!
Thank you.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I'm for it. They're beautiful deer. The environment would probably hold more whitetail than mulies if their nutritive needs are similar which means more hunter opportunity. But I think they would eventually become uncontrollable if more were transplanted and they hit a critical population number


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

How about we just dump out some feral pigs instead.... 🤐


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

We had pigs in the virgin river gorge. Russian Boar. People finally hunted them to extinction though...

-DallanC


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MrShane said:


> Middlefork,
> Yes, you are an IT genius!!
> Thank you.


 Not hardly  Just use the quote instead of the reply.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

rtockstein said:


> I'm for it. They're beautiful deer. The environment would probably hold more whitetail than mulies if their nutritive needs are similar which means more hunter opportunity. But I think they would eventually become uncontrollable if more were transplanted and they hit a critical population number


It seems to me that white tails are more adapted to agricultural areas. And I can't think of any agricultural land that isn't private. People already complain about access to private lands.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I’d like to see pigs in the Jordan River Cooridor, so thick the public would beg for an archery hunt to get them under control. Use the same rules as urban archers use now for deer.
And chickens so thick it would be approved to hunt them year-round also. 
Instead of watching TV after work it’s ‘winner winner chicken dinner’.
#Making Utah Hunt Opportunities Great Again.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I'd like to see more whitetails throughout the west in places they currently aren't. River bottom lands is where they would thrive the best, often, these areas are tied to agricultural areas.

So yes, introduce whitetails to UT where they'd have the best chance. Whitetails are abundant throughout Canada and are present in hunt-able populations in MT, WY, ID, CO, and as mentioned, south in AZ and NM. If they aren't as prevalent in the Beehive state, I'd say it's more of a UT thing and not so much as a natural species thing.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

They taste better also. Looking forward to my whitetail hunt this year. 


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Brettski7 said:


> They taste better also. Looking forward to my whitetail hunt this year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


When you get a whitetail that has been eating the same type of food source that mule deer do you will find that they taste quite similar. Likewise a mule deer that has been feeding on farmland will taste a lot better than his brothers that live in the hills.

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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

MrShane said:


> Let’s face the hard truth here, even though it stings deeply.
> With Utah predicted to double it’s human population in the next ten years or so, the writing is on the wall that our beloved Mule Deer population will never recover to it’s former glory years.
> So… do we begin thinking of expanding the Whitetail Deer population that will tolerate higher human populations so that we may continue to have a huntable deer species for our kids and grandkids to hunt?
> I’m thinking I would like to see Whitetails managed in certain parts of the State and if encountered out of those zones they are treated as an invasive species, no season/limit/weapon/license restriction.
> ...


I don't really see the connection that is often implied between human population growth and mule deer reduction. I moved to Salt Lake in 2001 and tried the extended hunt my first year there. I had very low expectations. I remember seeing 12 bucks one day on the drive out of town when I was on my way to hunt them in the foothills. I work in a lot of remote areas of the state where there is very little development and see few deer where there are few people. I see by for the most deer around towns and farms. That's were I slow down if I'm driving during low light hours. I see more deer in the bottom of Zion Canyon than I do in high elevation Zion - really good looking habitat, hardly any deer. They seem to prefer the tourists. The exception is high mountains. I see a lot of deer there, but there is little danger of that being overdeveloped as most of it is ranch and public land. I personally believe the decline in mule deer has more to do with less human impact on public land. There was more predator control, developed water sources, and better vegetation when there was more grazing in the 40's 50's and 60's.. This is beside the point though. I remember concerns about whitetails popping up in Cache Valley in the 90's. DWR seemed concerned for a few different reason. The whitetails really haven't gone anywhere though.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Rather than encourage another species that doesn't seem to want to multiply why not have a Feral horse hunt?


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Critter said:


> When you get a whitetail that has been eating the same type of food source that mule deer do you will find that they taste quite similar. Likewise a mule deer that has been feeding on farmland will taste a lot better than his brothers that live in the hills.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


True. Have had some mulies that were fattened up on mountain grass that were pretty tasty. Not sure how a corn fed one would taste.

I do know the chubby butterball whitetail I shot coming out of a NE cornfield was good.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

My coues buck didn't taste too bad but you could tell that he had never eaten a ounce of grain, just desert scrub 

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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Amen to the feral horse hunt!
Those things need a management plan yesterday.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Vermin!!


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

middlefork said:


> Rather than encourage another species that doesn't seem to want to multiply why not have a Feral horse hunt?



Ahhh yes! I rescind my vote for whitetail and put it towards the cuddly horse.


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## bowdude (Aug 11, 2019)

High Desert Elk said:


> True. Have had some mulies that were fattened up on mountain grass that were pretty tasty. Not sure how a corn fed one would taste.
> 
> I do know the chubby butterball whitetail I shot coming out of a NE cornfield was good.


Mulies are browse eaters and when they are fed hay etc, as has been noted several times over the years by the game biologists, they starve. They will eat it but they cannot digest it. It has been said they will starve to death with a full belly.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

bowdude said:


> Mulies are browse eaters and when they are fed hay etc, as has been noted several times over the years by the game biologists, they starve. They will eat it but they cannot digest it. It has been said they will starve to death with a full belly.


Alfalfa hay isn't grass...


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Muleys eat alfalfa all the time and survive just fine on it….

muleys and whitetails can co exist just fine. Utah isn’t great whitetail habitat and they never took off because of it. Wanting to establish a non native whitetail herd does nothing but satisfy selfish wants. It’s not beneficial to anyone other than hunters looking for something to shoot at every fall. Let’s focus on the muledeer issue while we still have them. Looking for a plan B while we are still hunting a fair amount of muledeer every year is a little out there. If they disappear, it won’t be in our lifetimes


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MooseMeat said:


> Utah isn’t great whitetail habitat and they never took off because of it.


That is simply not true. UT's habitat is not that unique relative to other western states' habitat.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Whitetail do very well in an Urban environment, as long as they have the cover. Utah is the second driest state in the nation. There are limited areas that could provide them with the habitat they would need, and that habitat is primarily on private lands. It's tuff enough obtaining permission for access now. Imagine trying to get on a section of land in the Heber Valley along the river. 

If we want to continue to have a Mule Deer population that is vibrant and healthy, we need to stop building homes on the winter range and foothills where they have been going for decades. The freeways/highways made bigger and wider with the high fence along them doesn't help either. Mulley's need to migrate. They are almost being penned in now and cant migrate as they once could. Mans greed will destroy a Natural Habitat faster than anything, along with the ecosystem that supports that habitat. We are the ones to blame IMO.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

taxidermist said:


> If we want to continue to have a Mule Deer population that is vibrant and healthy, we need to stop building homes on the winter range and foothills where they have been going for decades. The freeways/highways made bigger and wider with the high fence along them doesn't help either. Mulley's need to migrate. They are almost being penned in now and cant migrate as they once could. Mans greed will destroy a Natural Habitat faster than anything, along with the ecosystem that supports that habitat. We are the ones to blame IMO.


I don't believe that is the problem. 

Take a look outside of the Wasatch Front. There is plenty of winter range, but where are the deer? It also seams that deer are doing quite well in the urban areas. I have a friend who owns some farm ground down in south west Provo. When I was talking to him a month ago he told me that I wouldn't believe the deer that are down there. There is also a 200 inch buck living there. But since it is in Provo, there is no hunting.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

If you want something more to hunt, perhaps we should be looking at Emu's. Much of Utah looks like pretty good Emu country to me. Lets just plant a few hundred around and see how it works out. At least they wouldn't be pushing some other native species out of the environment...and, I hear they taste about like chicken.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)




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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> If you want something more to hunt, perhaps we should be looking at Emu's. Much of Utah looks like pretty good Emu country to me. Lets just plant a few hundred around and see how it works out. At least they wouldn't be pushing some other native species out of the environment...and, I hear they taste about like chicken.


Coyotes and Lion would have a great dinner party.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Emu's and ostriches would fair quite well against coyotes, and even perhaps mountain lions. 

A ostrich lives in a very inhospitable environment with very deadly predators. And while there are no large predators where the emu's live they do have the dingo, a coyote size wild dog.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

bowdude said:


> Mulies are browse eaters and when they are fed hay etc, as has been noted several times over the years by the game biologists, they starve. They will eat it but they cannot digest it. It has been said they will starve to death with a full belly.


It's a sudden change in diet that kills them, not the food they eat. They need species specific bacteria in their rumen that break down the cellulose into sugars for each plant they eat and it takes a few weeks to establish enough of those alfalfa eating bacteria to do their job. So, for those deer that have been eating alfalfa all along, they do just fine.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> There is also a 200 inch buck living there. But since it is in Provo, there is no hunting.


When has that ever stopped anyone? 

SW provo you can hunt if you are far enough away from homes, barns, etc…


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Too many homes around where he is at. 

I figure that he'll get poached like one did a few years ago south of the Lindon boat harbor. That was another nice buck. Whoever shot it didn't even bother to get it off of the road, when I saw the body without it's head he was on a small pullout.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

taxidermist said:


> Whitetail do very well in an Urban environment, as long as they have the cover. Utah is the second driest state in the nation. There are limited areas that could provide them with the habitat they would need, and that habitat is primarily on private lands. It's tuff enough obtaining permission for access now. Imagine trying to get on a section of land in the Heber Valley along the river.


West TX is pretty dry and so is SW and SE NM and AZ and subspecies of whitetail thrive. Parts of UT are dry and others not so much. Parts if MT, WY, SD, NE are dry, others not so much.

Whitetail are a fairly adaptive species and usually out compete mule deer.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Seems like more "ranch management" thinking to me, as if we're talking about shifting to Angus instead of Herefords. That sort of thinking has dominated Utah wildlife management for awhile now and it doesn't appear to be very successful.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Nope, fight tooth and nail to keep mule deer


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Finnegan said:


> Seems like more "ranch management" thinking to me, as if we're talking about shifting to Angus instead of Herefords. That sort of thinking has dominated Utah wildlife management for awhile now and it doesn't appear to be very successful.


Angus are a better cut than Hereford though...


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> Angus are a better cut than Hereford though...


 You take a bull calf, keep him isolated and not allow him to breed for three years, throw grain at it the last couple months before slaughtering and that will be some of the best meat you can sink your chops into. You better have one he!! of round pen to keep him in though!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You poor, poor people. A Guernsey steer > just about anything else. The flavor and marbling is out of this world. Guernsey cows have some of the highest butterfat of cattle breeds, and the steers are just the best meat. Back when the Spanish Fork stock auction was running, someone would drop off a Guernsey steer and they very rarely ever made it to the sale floor, as they would be bought up by the auction owners or others "in the know".

I love Herford meat, angus was always "meh" to me... its ok. The breed is popular as they put on alot of weight fast and are easy to work with... not because they taste that much better than other breeds. Angus is a cash crop type critter.

-DallanC


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

DallanC said:


> You poor, poor people. A Guernsey steer > just about anything else. The flavor and marbling is out of this world. Guernsey cows have some of the highest butterfat of cattle breeds, and the steers are just the best meat. Back when the Spanish Fork stock auction was running, someone would drop off a Guernsey steer and they very rarely ever made it to the sale floor, as they would be bought up by the auction owners or others "in the know".
> 
> I love Herford meat, angus was always "meh" to me... its ok. The breed is popular as they put on alot of weight fast and are easy to work with... not because they taste that much better than other breeds. Angus is a cash crop type critter.
> 
> -DallanC


And I don't care for Herford, so, it's all a matter of preference. There are much better breeds than the 3 listed here...


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Whitetails are not native to UT, so until mule deer really tank, I think it behooves us to try and figure out the mule deer issue before throwing up our hands and letting whitetails rule the roost. It's NEVER a good deal when any species loses out. Whitetails don't need any help. Mulies do.


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## fobit (Mar 1, 2017)

With all the city councils closing their cities to shooting. whitetail would be as useful as quail in your neighbors backyard are


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Fobit, not sure where you heard that.
City leaders are actually opening up deer hunting seasons inside City limits.
Sounds like you need to run for City Mayor in your town.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MWScott72 said:


> Whitetails are not native to UT,


But they are in all the other states that encompass UT?

AZ CO, WY, ID? That doesn't make sense.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

High Desert Elk said:


> But they are in all the other states that encompass UT?
> 
> AZ CO, WY, ID? That doesn't make sense.


You have to look at where they are living with a substantial population in those states.

In Colorado 99% of them are on the eastern plains, same thing with Wyoming. You'll find very few in the northern half of Arizona except for a few isolated areas. I have no idea of where they hang out in Idaho 

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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

it is true, just as Critter said. They are very common in the ID panhandle btw. Why they are not in UT? I suspect because they are not an intermountain, sagebrush steppe species. UT is surrounded on all sides by this ecosystem, and the only whitetails found are generally those that have encroached via river bottoms.


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## bwood (Jan 5, 2011)

Whitetails don't avoid cars any better than mule deer. Having most of those whitetails in the ag and valley areas would make them more susceptible. There have been whitetails in Cache County for many years and the population hasn't exactly exploded. For those of you who don't know Cache valley is probably as good a whitetail habitat as any place in the state.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Critter said:


> You have to look at where they are living with a substantial population in those states.
> 
> In Colorado 99% of them are on the eastern plains, same thing with Wyoming. You'll find very few in the northern half of Arizona except for a few isolated areas. I have no idea of where they hang out in Idaho
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


There is actually a pretty good hunt-able population of whitetail in AZ between Flagstaff, Phoenix, and Snowflake in the Ponderosa ecosystems. The subspecies Coues deer is in an arid region. UT has stuff like that as well.

UT's river bottom lands could support a population of whitetail. In all likelihood, these small populations were hunted out in the 1850's to 1860's...


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## Wasatch_Outdoors (Aug 19, 2019)

Maybe I'm wrong in this thinking, but one of the biggest issues mule deer are facing right now is habitat loss. A big piece of that is that we tend to develop suburbs on that foothill country that makes up a big part of their winter range or at the least, bisects their migration routes down to lower elevations in winter. So introducing a competing subspecies that thrives on the suburban environments, river bottoms, and in general, winter habitat for the muleys would in essence be a death sentence, or at the very least, a substantial hit to their numbers. And I'm not entirely sure that the whitetails are going to move out of the suburbs in the summer. We see a few of them move through our farm in Perry, and they never go east of 89, they'd much rather lounge in the orchards, and fatten up on alfalfa. I think it's more likely that they're going to create a nuisance, and reduce the number of opportunities for hunters in the state by reducing muley populations through competition on winter range, while hanging out like neighborhood quail in the suburbs.

And I can't wait for the efforts that come from the backlash of that as the DWR tries to reintroduce mule deer to their traditional habitat, like they've done with cutthroat trout. You mention the idea of antler point restrictions on here as part of the mule deer management plan, and you get 57 pages of bickering. I can't wait to hear about the number of guys who drew a tag (or didn't) for a muley, and didn't have an opportunity to harvest a buck, despite glassing 20 of them in a week, but nothing was in the "slot limit". Honestly, if whitetails are your thing, there's plenty of opportunities elsewhere.


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## Wasatch_Outdoors (Aug 19, 2019)

MrShane said:


> Fobit, not sure where you heard that.
> City leaders are actually opening up deer hunting seasons inside City limits.
> Sounds like you need to run for City Mayor in your town.


I'll bite. Which cities? I mean I know that technically Bountiful created some opportunities for archery for nuisance deer, but I don't think for a second it's enough to make dent in the population of city deer, or give more than a handful of people opportunities. The logistics behind getting permission from Mrs Johnson to take a deer in her back yard, but then having to deal with Karen next door when the deer jumps the fence and dies under her kids playground set sounds like a nightmare. And frankly, it's not exactly appealing or falling into what I envision when deer hunting... So what other municipal opportunities are available?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

On the mule deer forget about anything north of Nephi along the front and any of the developed cities. 

Take a look at everything else where mule deer live, take a look down around Richfield, Salina, Gunnison, Loa, Bicknell, and any other smaller community and tell me that it is habitat loss. There is plenty of habitat around all of those cities but where are the mule deer? 

Also if it is because of all the development in the bigger cities why are so many deer doing so well that there are extended archery hunts for them? 

Lots of question but very few answers.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> Take a look at everything else where mule deer live, take a look down around Richfield, Salina, Gunnison, Loa, Bicknell, and any other smaller community and tell me that it is habitat loss. There is plenty of habitat around all of those cities but where are the mule deer?


Add to that National Parks where there is no hunting allowed. If deer numbers aren't thriving there, we know its not due to over hunting. Speed limits are usually lower there so much less road kill as well.

That leaves Mother Nature (winterkill, food quality, disease) and Predators.

-DallanC


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Critter-
Most of the extended archery hunts are to remove excess deer that are above the capacity of the available habitat, not because we are swimming in deer. What we are swimming in, along the Front, is development after development...ever creeping higher on the mountains.

The doe hunts that are not archery are more for depredation than for excess deer. Farmer complains about deer on his land, so DWR issues those tags to knock them back in local areas.

Mule deer numbers are tanking...no need to bring in a competing species to finish the job. If you're a whitetail guy, pick a state and go hunting. They're as close as WY, CO, and ID!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Ok, I'll take the extended hunts out of my equation. 

But what about the rural part of the state? Granted there are homes being built but they are usually on quite a few acres and not disturbing much more than a acre of ground as far as habitat is concerned. For all intents and purposes the mule deer population in most of the state should be exploding. But then we have to figure in the predators into the equation. 

Back in the 60's, and 70's lions and bears were shot on sight. Plus you could purchase a 365 day tag for them that was good for the whole state. You hardly ever saw a coyote wandering the hills, but what took care of the coyotes also took care of a lot of birds so I have no problem with outlawing those poison snares or whatever they were called.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Bountiful, Salt Lake County.
Herriman and Alpine have some type of program but I do not have the particulars.
You should be able to google those Cities with ‘urban deer’ in the title to get more details if you are interested.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

P.S.
Be sure to google ‘Draper Urban Deer Control’ on what was proposed August 19 for ‘Hunting Specialist’.
Plus, they get to hunt over bait!!!


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## 67015 (Jan 29, 2021)

What real beef looks like 🤤


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Maybe whitetails are not the savior.









Test results confirm that as many as 300 white-tailed deer have died from hemorrhagic disease in the Kamiah area


Idaho Fish and Game is continuing to receive reports of dead deer in the Kamiah area. Approximately 250-300 whitetails have died near the Kamiah area. Idaho Fish and Game wildlife staff has confirmed that the disease is a type of hemorrhagic disease (HD). Additional tests are currently being...




idfg.idaho.gov


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## Wasatch_Outdoors (Aug 19, 2019)

Critter said:


> Also if it is because of all the development in the bigger cities why are so many deer doing so well that there are extended archery hunts for them?


 I actually don't think they're actually doing all that well. I think they offer extended hunts in areas that get high numbers of nuisance complaints, winterkill, mitigation claims, and car accidents. I used to hunt the wasatch front extensively before they opened the extended hunts, and routinely saw more deer and more bucks than I ever do now. However I will say that between our farm in Perry, the areas above my home in Davis County, and the areas above Bountiful, I'm definitely seeing a trend. More and more deer that are staying down in the city year round. Don't get me wrong, there's still some big bucks that stay high most of the year about halfway between the city and the roads that run the ridgeline. There's still opportunities for the guys willing to work for it. 

But lets not kid around. Those bucks aren't the deer the DWR is targeting with the extended zone hunts.


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## fobit (Mar 1, 2017)

Wasatch_Outdoors said:


> I'll bite. Which cities? I mean I know that technically Bountiful created some opportunities for archery for nuisance deer, but I don't think for a second it's enough to make dent in the population of city deer, or give more than a handful of people opportunities. The logistics behind getting permission from Mrs Johnson to take a deer in her back yard, but then having to deal with Karen next door when the deer jumps the fence and dies under her kids playground set sounds like a nightmare. And frankly, it's not exactly appealing or falling into what I envision when deer hunting... So what other municipal opportunities are available?


Draper has closed land all the way into Utah County that I thought belonged to Alpine but there are no shooting signs all over Hog hollow. Cedar hills has posted land all over mahogany, some that is not even in the city boundaries. Try hunting pheasants on land you used to hunt in the 70s


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