# A complaint on the actions of the Forest Service



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Seeing as how the forest service fines heavily (which I'm glad) for people driving off the trails, I wonder, why don't they have to live by the rules themselves. About 4 years ago there was a fire on Cove Mountain, they put up a fence to keep out the elk, deer, and cows, so some of the area could recover untouched. Just a few weeks ago they tore it down but when they did so they cut a trail along where the fence had been by riding 4-wheelers to take it down driving the entire length of the fence including into an area that was a couple miles away from the nearest trail and had never had a motorized vehicle in it. Now I'm sure everyone will begin to find where they cut a trail through the trees and bushes and now everyone will start driving into this secluded little place that never had any ATV trails going into it until the forest service put them there. The trail is not hard to see and runs down an area like I said that was nearly impossible to get a 4-wheeler before but now if anyone finds it, it will be a luxurious ride. I ponder as to how the forest service plans on keeping "stupid people" on the trails if they can't stay on them and quite creating new trails themselves. I understand this was supposed to be temporary and only a trail to pick up the fence but do they honestly think that's what will happen, that the new trail they cut will just disappear quick enough no one will notice it, no it will get pounded by people who are lazy turds and it will never be a secluded area again. I say if the forest service wants others to tread lightly they should also tread lightly.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

So would you rather they air lift the old fence out at our tax payers expense? The forest service will just post up signs that the road is closed when they are finished. They may even reseed the road if they don't think they will need it for a fire road in the future. If people choose to ignore the signs then they deserve a ticket simple as that.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

deadicatedweim said:


> So would you rather they air lift the old fence out at our tax payers expense? The forest service will just post up signs that the road is closed when they are finished. They may even reseed the road if they don't think they will need it for a fire road in the future. If people choose to ignore the signs then they deserve a ticket simple as that.


Let me see if I get your drift correctly.It is ok to require the taxpayers that own the land to spend 2-4 days to pack an elk out and fine the living he11 out of them if they violate the rules but it's ok for them to scar the land to remove a fence.Why would they need to use a chopper?Seems to me they expect hunters to pack their game out on their back or drag it for miles they could pack or drag the fence out.After all the whole purpose to banning off road travel was to prevent the landscape from being scarred!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> deadicatedweim said:
> 
> 
> > So would you rather they air lift the old fence out at our tax payers expense? The forest service will just post up signs that the road is closed when they are finished. They may even reseed the road if they don't think they will need it for a fire road in the future. If people choose to ignore the signs then they deserve a ticket simple as that.
> ...


Well said!


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

Another case of government employees thinking they have special privileges because they work for the government.
The founding fathers warned us about that problem.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

If you drag miles of fence out by hand its going to scare the land and take a hell of alot of man hours which cost us money that could be better used on other things. If I read the original post correctly the whole reason the fence was put up was to protect the land and to help rehibalitate it. I am not a fan of the law but understand why it was changed, cause there are to many dumb [email protected]@es that started tearing up every meadow for the sake of offroad game retreival and we all suffer cause the one idiot. 

The way I see your comment was similar too, I help pay for I15 so I should be able to go any speed or direction I want to just because the goverement agencies (cops) get too.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

dedicatedweim, I understand you side of things but this fence was about a mile by a mile on fairly flat land and it was only fencing not posts or anything it was just fencing and not that much of it. On top of that in your equation here's what happens: 

Forest service rides in, has to un-nail fencing from trees, and roll it up and put it in the ATV trailer.

My equasion:
Forest service walks in, has to un-nail fencing from trees, and roll it up and pack it to the nearest road in a few rolls.

...Together from the size of the area all together around 1 extra hour of work for the forest service without atv access and no on foot trust me they wouldn't have destroyed as much as they did driving into the area.

I could also understand your argument if the forest service was ever really out giving out tickets to people off the marked trails around where I am, there are logging roads that are supposed to be "closed down by the forest service" but are still heavily traveled, and trails not even on the forest service map being heavily traveled obviously there aren't too many tickets going around when trails are so well traveled. I also agree packing out a 400+lb elk is a lot harder than a few spools of wire, forest service really ought to practice what they preach, I was very disappointed walking into the area and seeing a 4-wheeler trail go on ground a vehicle had never been in and the trail was made by the people who are supposed to be stopping things like that, I will guarantee there will not be a sign, there will be plenty of bikes heading down the trail, and no tickets will be given. No tickets will be given because of 2 things #1 its been at least 3 years since I've seen a forest service officer period, and this road is off the main road quite a ways.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Seeing as how the forest service fines heavily (which I'm glad) for people driving off the trails, I wonder, why don't they have to live by the rules themselves. About 4 years ago there was a fire on Cove Mountain, they put up a fence to keep out the elk, deer, and cows, so some of the area could recover untouched. Just a few weeks ago they tore it down but when they did so they cut a trail along where the fence had been by riding 4-wheelers to take it down driving the entire length of the fence including into an area that *was a couple miles away from the nearest trail *and had never had a motorized vehicle in it. Now I'm sure everyone will begin to find where they cut a trail through the trees and bushes and now everyone will start driving into this secluded little place that never had any ATV trails going into it until the forest service put them there. The trail is not hard to see and runs down an area like I said that was nearly impossible to get a 4-wheeler before but now if anyone finds it, it will be a luxurious ride. I ponder as to how the forest service plans on keeping "stupid people" on the trails if they can't stay on them and quite creating new trails themselves. I understand this was supposed to be temporary and only a trail to pick up the fence but do they honestly think that's what will happen, that the new trail they cut will just disappear quick enough no one will notice it, no it will get pounded by people who are lazy turds and it will never be a secluded area again. I say if the forest service wants others to tread lightly they should also tread lightly.





#1DEER 1-I said:


> in, has to un-nail fencing from trees, and roll it up and pack it to the nearest road in a few rolls.


Sorry my bad from the first post I assumed it was a bigger area even though a mile by a mile is still alot of fence. I also asummed the fence was a heavy duty fence capable of actually keeping deer and elk out. But if its just nailed to the tree's it sounds like it was just a simple cow or sheep fence. 
One question and then i'm done with this. How did they put up the fence in the first place and not cause damage like an atv trail/road to begin? Im thinking if they kept it undercontrol during the building portion they probably can control it during the removal.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Seeing as how the forest service fines heavily (which I'm glad) for people driving off the trails, I wonder, why don't they have to live by the rules themselves. About 4 years ago there was a fire on Cove Mountain, they put up a fence to keep out the elk, deer, and cows, so some of the area could recover untouched. Just a few weeks ago they tore it down but when they did so they cut a trail along where the fence had been by riding 4-wheelers to take it down driving the entire length of the fence including into an area that *was a couple miles away from the nearest trail *and had never had a motorized vehicle in it. Now I'm sure everyone will begin to find where they cut a trail through the trees and bushes and now everyone will start driving into this secluded little place that never had any ATV trails going into it until the forest service put them there. The trail is not hard to see and runs down an area like I said that was nearly impossible to get a 4-wheeler before but now if anyone finds it, it will be a luxurious ride. I ponder as to how the forest service plans on keeping "stupid people" on the trails if they can't stay on them and quite creating new trails themselves. I understand this was supposed to be temporary and only a trail to pick up the fence but do they honestly think that's what will happen, that the new trail they cut will just disappear quick enough no one will notice it, no it will get pounded by people who are lazy turds and it will never be a secluded area again. I say if the forest service wants others to tread lightly they should also tread lightly.





#1DEER 1-I said:


> in, has to un-nail fencing from trees, and roll it up and pack it to the nearest road in a few rolls.


Sorry my bad from the first post I assumed it was a bigger area even though a mile by a mile is still alot of fence. I also asummed the fence was a heavy duty fence capable of actually keeping deer and elk out. But if its just nailed to the tree's it sounds like it was just a simple cow or sheep fence. 
One question and then i'm done with this. How did they put up the fence in the first place and not cause damage like an atv trail/road to begin? Im thinking if they kept it undercontrol during the building portion they probably can control it during the removal.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

deadicatedweim said:


> One question and then i'm done with this. How did they put up the fence in the first place and not cause damage like an atv trail/road to begin? Im thinking if they kept it undercontrol during the building portion they probably can control it during the removal.


That's the same 'logic; used by people who ignore the rules to retrieve elk/deer. I sat on the OHV committee where we tried to come up with better ways of reducing abuse by the public, the #1 reason the USFS gave for abuse was ONE abuser leaving a trail that others would then follow. Monkey see, monkey do.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

Horses? :roll:


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

deadicatedweim said:


> Sorry my bad from the first post I assumed it was a bigger area even though a mile by a mile is still alot of fence. I also asummed the fence was a heavy duty fence capable of actually keeping deer and elk out. But if its just nailed to the tree's it sounds like it was just a simple cow or sheep fence.
> One question and then i'm done with this. How did they put up the fence in the first place and not cause damage like an atv trail/road to begin? Im thinking if they kept it undercontrol during the building portion they probably can control it during the removal.


Well they hauled it in by hand and put it up by hand but were too lazy to go in and pack it out by hand, yes this was just a regular (although taller) cow/sheep fencing and it wasn't even keeping the deer and elk out any way because of when a tree would fall well there would be a giant hole in the fence, it did keep the cows out while they were on the mountain though. Another reason it would have been easy to pack it out rather than ride it out is the area is basically a flat area and no climbing or tough terrain that would have caused them all that much trouble.


proutdoors said:


> #1 reason the USFS gave for abuse was ONE abuser leaving a trail that others would then follow. Monkey see, monkey do.


Apparently in the case if it is the forest service leaving the trail no one will follow huh?


horsesma said:


> Horses? :roll:


Horses would have been nice and defiantly wouldn't have caused the damage, or future damage with people using the trail, if they would have used horses.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> Pro wrote: That's the same 'logic; used by people who ignore the rules to retrieve elk/deer. I sat on the OHV committee where we tried to come up with better ways of reducing abuse by the public, *the #1 reason the USFS gave for abuse was ONE abuser leaving a trail that others would then follow. Monkey see, monkey do*.


This must be the problem......My wifes family has property on the mountain near Cedar and I and my kids and nephews, and friends have hunted it for years, we use the ATV's to retrieve game where ever we take it and you can't tell where we have been. We don't just make trails all over and don't travel the same routes. There is a large flat about a mile long I use to get from one part of the ranch to another on the ATV and I never take the same route twice in a row. You can't tell that ATV's have ever crossed the flat. So it is abuse not use that causes the problems.


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