# Hunter orange question



## trclements

I just drew the currant creek any legal weapon fall bear tag that runs Aug 20 - Sept 26, Oct 29 - Nov 17, 2016. 

I have gone through the guide book and cannot find anything about wearing orange. Does Utah require rifle bear hunters to wear orange? I have seen a bunch of videos of guys in Utah hunting bears with a rifle and they are all in Camo.


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## Hoopermat

If the hunt allows a center fire rifle then Orange is required.


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## trclements

Hoopermat said:


> If the hunt allows a center fire rifle then Orange is required.


Can you show me where in the bear proclamation it says that?


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## Hoopermat

Page 5 of big game book
Wearing hunter orange: You must wear hunter orange if you are in an area where a centerfire rifle hunt is occurring. For detailed information on Utah’s hunter orange regula- tions, please see page 33.
Since bear is a sub book of the big game hunting all rules of big game apply to all bear hunts


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## trclements

Hoopermat said:


> Page 5 of big game book
> Wearing hunter orange: You must wear hunter orange if you are in an area where a centerfire rifle hunt is occurring. For detailed information on Utah's hunter orange regula- tions, please see page 33.
> Since bear is a sub book of the big game hunting all rules of big game apply to all bear hunts


So every deer and elk bow hunter in the Currant creek area has to wear 400 inches of blaze orange for the enire bow hunt because 6 of us have any weapon bear tag that runs at the same time? That would also include all hunters that drew an Archery LE bull elk permit for the Wasatch Mts and hunts in the currant creek area?


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## Hoopermat

Yes
If the seasons are during the same time and one of the seasons allow center fire rifle as a legal weapon


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## trclements

Seems like an error on the DWR's part then. That means bowhunters on the beaver, book cliffs, cache, central mountains, chalk creek, pahvant, Monroe, mt dutton, nine mile, three corners, panguitch lake, Boulder mountains, fishlike, diamond mountain, and the entire wasatch unit have to wear orange during their bow hunts this year.


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## Hoopermat

Or could help a bow hunter from being shot due to a hunter not identifying his or her target. 
I agree it's not convenant for the bow hunters and most probably are not aware of the crossed seasons. But it does clearly state during a center fire rifle hunt all must where orange.


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## derekp1999

trclements, I don't know the answer to your question but I would send a quick email to the DWR and ask them directly.

The OIAL hunts are exempt from the orange regulation (unless of course another hunt in going on at the same time), the bear hunts could fall under a similar category allowing bear hunters to wear camo if no other centerfire rifle hunt is going on at the same time.


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## PBH

look up Utah Code § 23-20-31:
http://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title23/Chapter20/23-20-S31.html?v=C23-20-S31_1800010118000101

There are no exceptions in that code for the Bear hunt.


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## willfish4food

It's never a bad thing to check and make sure, but the law seems pretty clear on this one.

Utah Code 23-20-31

There are exceptions for Archery, ML, and OIAL species hunts, and "as provided by a rule of the Wildlife Board."

Like derekp1999 suggested, check with the division; there may be an exception falling under section 23-20-31.3b that exempts bear hunters or bow hunters hunting during a rifle bear season. But, if there's nothing in the proclamation stating the exemption, I'd bet there isn't one.


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## derekp1999

How long have there been rifle bear hunts going on at the same time as archery and muzzleloader big game hunts?


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## DallanC

Whats really funny is there is no requirement that the "orange" has to be your top visible layer. It only says you have to have 400 inches worn. Stick a camo shell on over your orange and you are still legal... stupid perhaps, but still legal.


-DallanC


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## trclements

Hoopermat said:


> Or could help a bow hunter from being shot due to a hunter not identifying his or her target.
> I agree it's not convenant for the bow hunters and most probably are not aware of the crossed seasons. But it does clearly state during a center fire rifle hunt all must where orange.


When I said it was a mistake on the part of the DWR, I meant they made a mistake scheduling rifle hunts durning the bow hunt.

I am not arguing that the law says that you have to wear orange. I thought that was rule as well. But the fact that the bear proclamation doesn't reference orange anywhere and that the big game proclamation doesn't reference bears at all I thought they might be regulated differently. Just like furbearer, cougar, turkey, upland game, and waterfowl all have their own set of proclamations and rules.

I did call the DWR and the young girl that answered didn't know the answer so she put me on hold for 10 minutes, then referenced the rule in the big game proclamation about center fire hunts. When I pressed her if that meant all bow hunters would have to wear orange this year she said yes as far as she understands the rule. Now how well she understands the rule may be up for debate.

Maybe Amy can give us her perspective on this...


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## Critter

When you call a division office and talk to whoever answers the phone you will find that you will get a different answer just about every time that you call when you get a different person. At least this person went and found what the answer is in the book. 

Also if you look at any of the draw guide books you won't find any reference to "orange". You need to go to the Big Game Field Regulation book or download to learn just what the rules and regulations are for any of the big game hunts.


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## PBH

trclements said:


> When I pressed her if that meant all bow hunters would have to wear orange this year she said yes as far as she understands the rule. Now how well she understands the rule may be up for debate.


The rule is very clear. Whether she understands it is not up for debate. Give her some credit for looking it up.

There is no exception listed for the bear hunts. Archery and Muzzleloader hunters technically are required to wear orange if there is a centerfire hunt going on in the same unit as their archery hunt. That's the law.

Whether it is enforced is what is up for debate. CO's and other LEO officials may turn a blind eye to this seemingly questionable law. But the law is very clear. A centerfire rifle hunt requires orange, with a few exceptions. The bear hunt isn't one of those exceptions.

This isn't new. There have been bear hunts during archery hunts for many years.


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## Critter

I just looked and the 2016 Big Game Field Regulation book isn't out yet, so they may be changes for the orange requirement in it. You'll just have to wait until it is out to find out.


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## PBH

Critter said:


> I just looked and the 2016 Big Game Field Regulation book isn't out yet, so they may be changes for the orange requirement in it. You'll just have to wait until it is out to find out.


Not necessarily.

Again, just look at the code: http://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title23/Chapter20/23-20-S31.html?v=C23-20-S31_1800010118000101

keep in mind, the regulation books are not the law, but rather just summaries to help hunters. If you want to see the actual law, click the link above. You don't have to wait for the guide book to come out. The law RIGHT NOW says that archers need orange if a bear hunt overlaps the archery hunt.


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## elkfromabove

Whoa, there Pardners! There is NO requirement to wear hunter orange for a bear hunt, ever! That's why there isn't anything mentioned. ALL hunter orange rules apply ONLY for Big Game hunts, and *bears* (cougars, upland game, waterfowl, and furbearers) *are not Big Game* and have their own separate regulations and guidebooks. The Black Bear Proclamation IS NOT a sub-book of the Big Game Guidebooks.

Utah Code R657-5-Taking *Big Game*:
*R657-5-1. Purpose and Authority*
(1) Under authority of Sections 23-14-18 and 23-14-19, the Wildlife Board has established this rule for taking *deer, elk, pronghorn, moose, bison, bighorn sheep, *and* Rocky Mountain goat.*
(Bears are not mentioned.)

Utah Code R657-33-Taking Bear:
*R657-33-1 Purpose and Authority.*
(1) Under authority of Sections 23-14-18 and 23-14-19, of the Utah Code, the Wildlife Board has established this rule for taking and pursuing *bear*.

Wear hunter orange if you chose, but it's not a requirement.

Edited: per the link above:
Utah Code 23-20-31 Requirement to wear hunter orange - Exceptions
(2)(a) A person shall wear a minimum of 400 square inches of hunter orange material *while hunting any species of big game*, except as provided in Subsection (3).


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## trclements

elkfromabove said:


> Whoa, there Pardners! There is NO requirement to wear hunter orange for a bear hunt, ever! That's why there isn't anything mentioned. ALL hunter orange rules apply ONLY for Big Game hunts, and *bears* (cougars, upland game, waterfowl, and furbearers) *are not Big Game* and have their own separate regulations and guidebooks. The Black Bear Proclamation IS NOT a sub-book of the Big Game Guidebooks.
> 
> Utah Code R657-5-Taking *Big Game*:
> *R657-5-1. Purpose and Authority*
> (1) Under authority of Sections 23-14-18 and 23-14-19, the Wildlife Board has established this rule for taking *deer, elk, pronghorn, moose, bison, bighorn sheep, *and* Rocky Mountain goat.*
> (Bears are not mentioned.)
> 
> Utah Code R657-33-Taking Bear:
> *R657-33-1 Purpose and Authority.*
> (1) Under authority of Sections 23-14-18 and 23-14-19, of the Utah Code, the Wildlife Board has established this rule for taking and pursuing *bear*.
> 
> Wear hunter orange if you chose, but it's not a requirement.
> 
> Edited: per the link above:
> Utah Code 23-20-31 Requirement to wear hunter orange - Exceptions
> (2)(a) A person shall wear a minimum of 400 square inches of hunter orange material *while hunting any species of big game*, except as provided in Subsection (3).


Thank you. This is the response I have been looking for. That was my understanding that bears weren't technically classified as big game in Utah and as a result they have separate laws, regulations, and a separate proclamation.

Thanks for clearing it up and showing the Utah Code that clarifies it.


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## goofy elk

Oh my lord,
lion and bear hunters wearing orange??? LMFAO...:!:

Thanks for clearing that one up EFA.


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## Vanilla

EFA to the rescue!

As I was reading through this thread I was wondering what I was missing. Then I get to EFA's post---and bingo!


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## Airborne

Isn't it so funny that we have some forum hero's...cough cough PBH cough cough.. that are so, so certain that you have to wear orange for bears and every other hunt on the mountain and are completely shown the door. I mean this is priceless...what a smack down EFA made. Extremely entertaining and also informative  great job EFA


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## trclements

PBH said:


> The rule is very clear. Whether she understands it is not up for debate. Give her some credit for looking it up.
> 
> There is no exception listed for the bear hunts. Archery and Muzzleloader hunters technically are required to wear orange if there is a centerfire hunt going on in the same unit as their archery hunt. That's the law.
> 
> Whether it is enforced is what is up for debate. CO's and other LEO officials may turn a blind eye to this seemingly questionable law. But the law is very clear. A centerfire rifle hunt requires orange, with a few exceptions. The bear hunt isn't one of those exceptions.
> 
> This isn't new. There have been bear hunts during archery hunts for many years.


PBH- 
Apparently the rule is very clear, just not your understanding of it or the young lady I spoke to at the DWR today. You are correct in that any BIG GAME hunt that occurs during a centerfire BIG GAME HUNT does require orange to be worn.

I have been reading the Utah code tonight and Utah State code 23-13-2 says "Big game" means species of hoofed protected wildlife. So bear hunting is not subject to The Big Game Proclamation.

I find it very worrisome that the DWR can't answer a hunters question as it pertains to the law they are authorized to enforce.


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## willfish4food

Glad EFA cleared that up... 

I will also say that isn't it funny how AFTER EFA set the record straight we get post after post of, "well no crap. Of course you don't have to wear orange. What moron would think you'd need to wear it?"

Post was going for a pretty good while before EFA set it straight. Just sayin...


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## willfish4food

Also, I still wonder if archery hunters are technically supposed to wear HO if there's a rifle bear hunt going on in that area. 23-20-31 says you have to wear it if there's a centerfire rifle hunt going on, not if there's a big game centerfire rifle hunt. The only exceptions it lists for centerfire rifle hunts in their definition are OIAL , conservation permits, and sportsman permits. Doesn't say anything about bear, cougar, or any other animal. 

I don't archery hunt and I don't bear hunt, so I don't study the laws for it. I'm just curious. Seems like that would suck for the bow hunters.


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## Vanilla

Interesting thought, willfish4food. Again, go back to the code itself:

(_3)	A person is not required to wear the hunter orange material described in Subsection (2):
(a)	during the following types of hunts, unless a centerfire rifle hunt is in progress in the same area:
(i)	archery;
(ii)	muzzle-loader;
(iii)	mountain goat;
(iv)	bighorn sheep;
(v)	bison; or
(vi)	moose; *or
(b)	as provided by a rule of the Wildlife Board.*_

Here is the definition of center fire hunt:

(_i)"Centerfire rifle hunt" means a hunt for which a hunter may use a centerfire rifle, except as provided in Subsection (1)(a)(ii)._

I think your reading of the code is correct, bear hunters don't have to, but unless the Wildlife Board has provided by rule, archery hunters would need to wear orange. I have not looked at the Wildlife Board administrative rules. Clearly it is an oversight an unintended consequence if they have not made a WB rule.


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## elkfromabove

willfish4food said:


> Glad EFA cleared that up...
> 
> I will also say that isn't it funny how AFTER EFA set the record straight we get post after post of, "well no crap. Of course you don't have to wear orange. What moron would think you'd need to wear it?"
> 
> Post was going for a pretty good while before EFA set it straight. Just sayin...


I'm sorry for hiacking a perfectly entertaining and fun thread by giving the legal answer the OP was looking for. How rude of me!

But wait!! All is not lost! Willfish has a question even I can't find a clear answer to (yet). This thread can still be revived.


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## 7mm Reloaded

Bears can't see well at all , so who cares , I'd wear an orange hat. Camo ego trippin .


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## PBH

thanks for the clarification EFA. It's always nice to learn something new. Never having hunted bear or mountain lion, I had assumed they would be included. Keep in mind, my answers I gave all had to do with the archery hunters, and not the bear hunters. Willfishforfood's question has already been answered according to the rules.

I swear.....we've been through this question before. has anyone done a search on these forums yet??



PBH


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## Critter

PBH said:


> I swear.....we've been through this question before. has anyone done a search on these forums yet??
> 
> PBH


Search? What is a search? It is much easier to just ask the question than to muddle through all the subjects and post that come up when you do a search for "orange"

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/search.php?searchid=1588129


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## goofy elk

I'll say it for the tenth time,

Utahs orange laws SUCK!

Just get rid of the orange law and let hunters choose for their self.


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## Critter

I actually think that all the states that require "hunter orange" be worn to get together and standardize the rules.

One state you need to wear it on your body and head, the next one just on your head, the next you don't have to wear it unless you feel like it. One state you can wear camo orange, the others you can't. 

Then comes the enforcement of it. Who has been told that what you are wearing is too faded or not bright enough? Who has been helping another hunter and wasn't required to wear it and has been told to put it on by a DOW officer?


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## PBH

Critter said:


> Search? What is a search? It is much easier to just ask the question than to muddle through all the subjects and post that come up when you do a search for "orange"
> 
> http://utahwildlife.net/forum/search.php?searchid=1588129


Actually, it looks like we have had this discussion on numerous occasions.
The consensus on most is: if there is a centerfire hunt occurring in the same area, then the archer or muzzloader technically should be wearing orange. Even if the bear hunter doesn't.

maybe the law needs to be clarified that if a centerfire hunt for BIG GAME animals is occurring in the same area....thus you could exclude those non-big-game-hunting-bear-hunts and feel better about wearing camo?

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/19-ge...086-what-hunter-orange-requirements-utah.html

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/13-archery/7358-archery-elk-september-2.html

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/13-archery/935-hunter-orange-extended-3.html

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/138913-youth-late-season-rifle-extended-archery.html

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/13-archery/92521-hunter-orange-when-use.html

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/88810-urgent-info-front-elk-hunters.html

cough. cough. know-it-all signing out.


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## goofy elk

In 35 years of hunting bears and lions,NEVER once have I seen orange
on a tag holder............................................!


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## wyogoob

Call me crazy, but I moved this thread to the *"Other kinds of animals; **Bears, cougars, furbearers, wolves, nonprotected animals, varmits" *section.


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## Vanilla

wyogoob said:


> Call me crazy, but I moved this thread to the *"Other kinds of animals; **Bears, cougars, furbearers, wolves, nonprotected animals, varmits" *section.


Hey Crazy!


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## trclements

Critter said:


> Search? What is a search? It is much easier to just ask the question than to muddle through all the subjects and post that come up when you do a search for "orange"
> 
> http://utahwildlife.net/forum/search.php?searchid=1588129


As the OP I actually did a search before I posted this question. Being these new rifle bear hunts that overlap with the archery hunts have only been around a few years I couldn't find the answer and every search I did using "orange" and "bear" always came up with a bunch of posts by Bears Butt.

Thanks to everyone that helped clear up some of the confusion. I agree that they probably should re-define what a centerfire hunt is and change it to just include Big Game animals.

Let me post a follow up question to throw a wrench in the whole thing. As the law stands right now, if I hunt bear with a rifle I don't' have to wear orange but if I was a bow hunter hunting elk I would have to wear orange.

What if I have a rifle bear tag and archery elk tag for the same area at the same time? If I carry a rifle and a bow and have both tags, do I have to wear orange?


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## DallanC

Vanilla said:


> Hey Crazy!


Yea! Moving it to the Gear / Equipment forum makes more sense.

-DallanC


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## richardjb

In 2014 I had archery elk tag and rifle bear tag for North Slope that overlapped. No orange was worn. I had outfitter with houndsmen and it wasn't even brought up.


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## Huge29

goofy elk said:


> In 35 years of hunting bears and lions,NEVER once have I seen orange
> on a tag holder............................................!


I can certainly appreciate one not having to and their freedoms, but why, as you seem to imply here, would anyone be adamant about not wearing orange? From stalking with dogs it certainly wouldn't matter and even in a stand probably not a big deal; just why would people care so much about it? I have seen so many moronic acts out there that I want everyone to know exactly where I am. I have also seen many trespassers that cant wear it for the opposite reason, not that you are a trespasser if you dont...


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## goofy elk

Huge,
I'll bet if you were on the mountain every day, especially weekdays,
during any cougar hunt, or bear, or LE, or any OIAL hunt you would know why..

NO ONE ELSE IS EVEN THERE...And hunters know EXACTLY what they are shooting at!

General season is a whole different ball game..:!:..
Hell, if I did that insane crap I'd probably wear orange---camo orange that is..;-)..


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## Huge29

I can appreciate that, I guess the situation I think of most is a guide who often hunts general hunts, but only as a helper, no tag and just refuses to wear any orange. That is one that I just don't get.


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## goofy elk

Huge29 said:


> I can appreciate that, I guess the situation I think of most is a guide who often hunts general hunts, but only as a helper, no tag and just refuses to wear any orange. That is one that I just don't get.


In all my years of guiding, Even general, an orange hat is the most I ever wore.....

Again, NEVER once do I recall EVER seeing a licensed guide wear 400 square inches orange!
It just dose not happen...................................................


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