# Private Land



## toymanator (Dec 29, 2010)

I hope that this turns into a really positive discussion. I have seen a growing number of hunters frustrated because hunting is becoming more privatized. With the new land owner initiatives, the trend is becoming more and more the norm. Public land is decreasing, the pressure for the animals on public land is increasing so the animals are being pushed onto private land. So what are we going to do about it?

I woke up this morning extremely frustrated because of some events that happened over the weekend. I will admit I am a little emotionally charged, and that will probably come out in this post. But the events that occurred this weekend have been happening more frequently. Let me explain:

My family owns some land that has hunting opportunities on it. I currently live on the property and manage it for them. I do not rely on the property for my income, however we do grow alfalfa for our horses and cows, and use the area for recreation for our family. Almost without fail, every hunting season I have someone approach me asking if they can hunt on our property. It is becoming a year round thing with all of the hunting seasons. Case in point, yesterday was one of the last days of the Turkey hunt. Over the last month and a half I have had three people stop and ask if they could hunt on our property. Yesterday an additional three knocked on the door. The last one was the final straw. I watched as two trucks pulled up and glassed our property. I was in the backyard having a BBQ with friends when one of them pulled up and talked with my wife. I heard the truck pull into our property and immediately received a phone call from my wife. She said a man had asked if they could go look at the turkeys in one of our fields, she said he seemed nice enough and had a ten year old kid with him. She said she felt awful because she didn't realize that they might be hunters, and after she said they could look at the turkeys the man called his friends and two other trucks came around the corner to our property each with an ATV in the back. I told her I would go talk with them. I approached them and politely said "I am sorry, but I can't have you come on our property" The men in the trucks immediately got out and were frustrated, "we just talked with the lady who said it was ok, what changed?" I explained that we have a standing rule in our family that we do not let anyone else hunt on our land. They began to back talk a little in their frustration and expressed that it was the last day of the hunt and they were trying to fill two tags, one of which was a youth tag. I explained that I had been scouting the turkeys that morning and watched them go around a ridge onto public land. They then said "well they are back now, we can see them right there in the adjacent field." (the turkeys were probably 300 yards away from the truck and could be seen clearly with the naked eye) After they showed a little more frustration, I apologized for the miscommunication from my wife and put my foot down again that we could not let them on the property. When they realized I wasn't going to budge, they loaded up and headed on down the road. As a private land owner I offer the following suggestions:

*Be pragmatic, look to be helpful/develop a partnership *-Similar situations happen almost daily on the cow hunt, general deer, and others. The request seems innocent. But let me explain it from the land owners perspective. I spend 365 days a year on our land, every day I move water lines, manage livestock, trap varmints, repair fencing, plant, and harvest. It is extremely frustrating to me when someone comes on the last day of the hunt, and asks if they can walk on the property and harvest an animal. It doesn't even necessarily have to be the last day of the hunt. As a hunter I appreciate someone who puts in the time to scout and survey an area. Let me give a scenario that may have changed my mind. If the man yesterday who spoke with my wife, had approached me six months ago and proposed a partnership. I run this place primarily by myself and am always willing to let others lend a hand. If the man had asked, if him and his son could help repair some fencing, or offer to move water lines in exchange for the opportunity to hunt. My attitude would be very different. I often have people at work ask if they can bring their kids up to our property to help with chores and show them the value of hard work. As a private land owner I am all for this, and it comes across as a win-win situation.

As a hunter myself I respect their dedication to the sport and that they were out with the youth yesterday. I personally know how difficult the turkey hunt can be and respect their diligence. But I think there is a better way of approaching things.

*Do Not Use the Pity Card *- Another one of my pet peeves is when someone asks to hunt on our land and uses the pity card. I have heard them all "my wife is pregnant and today is the only day I can hunt" or "my son has a tag and I really want to help him fill it this year" Do not try to make a landowner feel bad for you or blame your "need" to hunt on private land on the fact that your wife is pregnant, etc.

*Be up front* with land owners, as you can tell I am pretty protective of this place. Every year I spend countless hours and tens of thousands of dollars on this place. Why would I let a stranger and his friends tromp around on the land? I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but my family knows where we recently planted some new fields, and made improvements to trails, etc. As an outsider without knowing these things you could make more work for me and frankly it just isn't worth letting you on the place. This is especially true if you plan to use an ATV or other mode of transportation on the land.

*Understand Your Surroundings* - The field that the turkeys are in is a difficult area to hunt. I have thousands of dollars into water lines and other farming equipment that are right behind the where the turkeys are. If one of these is damaged, it can be expensive to repair. I am not going to let you on the place if you don't recognize this beforehand. Again frankly, it isn't worth it to me to hope you are a good shot. (they have been shot before) To get to the land where hunting is located, you have to access it by going through some of our livestock pens. I don't want you to be injured going through these pens, or have you make the mistake of letting them out. It's not worth it to me.

*Do not be the one that ruins it for everyone else *- My family used to let a few individuals hunt on our land. These were family friends, people who we had a personal relationship with. This all changed about 20 years ago. We decided as a family to not let anyone other than family on the land. As a landowner if you let one person hunt, you then have to let everyone hunt. It is very hard to pick and choose and "play favorites." We decided for us it is easier to just not let any outside people hunt on the land. As someone who manages the land there is a way I would hunt and treat the property. Be respectful of the landowners expertise and ask for advice before going.

*Be respectful, you don't have a right*- The truth is, there isn't a reason why I would ever let anyone on my land. That is my families right. We pay the property taxes each year, all of the other expenses and have earned the right to own and manage our private land. If you pay your taxes and have not broken any laws you have the right to hunt on public land. There isn't anything that says if you do the above, that I or anyone who owns private land will let you harvest an animal on our land. Understand that the small fee (tag, gear, and everything included) you pay to hunt are small in comparison to the thousands of dollars we go through to manage the land this makes it difficult for me to want to let you on the property.

This turned in to a bit of a rant, and I hope I didn't come across as a crotchety old man. But we hunters are very naive if we don't see the writing on the wall. My experience comes from years of owning private land and seeing individuals try every means to hunt on that land. It will be more and more difficult to hunt on public land if the private land isn't hunted as well. I know first hand how the animals move to private land as soon as the public hunting pressure starts. The only way the animals are going back on public land is if the private land no longer becomes the safe haven that it currently is.

So what have you done to help build relationships with private land owners to allow you to hunt on their land?


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

As was said in a different thread recently.........

No Tresspassing means good hunting here, to some people. 

I have partnered up with some good landowners over the years, which led to some very sweet hunting spots. 
Helped hang, and put down fence. Repair fence, helped with lambing and calving, cut out roads and fencelines in the spring etc. 
To me the time spent helping was not really work. Quite enjoyed it


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## soccerscotty21 (Apr 15, 2010)

I agree with you here, and I do not own any land of hunting value. The thing that bothers me is when landowners own the bottom land and the high ground is public, but since the bottom is private, the owners essentially own all the high ground hunting as well, since we can't cross the property to get to the public ground. This is happening more and more for lots of the best hunting areas.


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## muleydeermaniac (Jan 17, 2008)

My family owns land and we have the same problems you do. I have kicked people off the property for straight up trespassing. There are a few land owners in my area and I had to require them to show their permission papers to hunt the property. My biggest pet peeve is four wheelers making their own roads and have banned them during hunting season for this reason. They have destroyed a couple areas on the property.

Now on the flip side I take a couple youth hunters up there for deer hunting every year. There are plenty of smaller bucks on the property and some big ones as well. But when the youth hunters are up there I don't require much, just follow my rules, stay on the roads while driving and be safe. I've had them give me gift cards as a thank you or they will spend a half day repairing roads with me....That is HUGE!! It takes a long time to fix washed out roads and any help is greatly appreciated. 

Now there are a couple owners that are a lot more strict than I am, and they let no one of their property. There is one that I do fence repair for yearly because he can't physically do it anymore so he lets me hunt his property as well which is a big advantage for me and my family. But there is always a price to pay so to speak.

This year is no different, I will be taking two youth hunters up there this year as well. Their face is priceless whether they hit or miss their target. That's why I do it! 

Anyway I agree with everything you've said in your post! If more hunters were polite and not jerks when asking and expecting permission the gates would open for a lot more areas......


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I've helped fix fences, rebuild gates, fix vandalism damage and even offer to throw in some $$$ for access to private ground. 

For over 20 years I had access to a gem of a spot that was +3000 acres and for most of that time, I was usually the only hunter. It was awesome. Sadly its now all being subdivided and sold off for multi-million dollar building lots. Makes me really sad, but I'm glad I got to use it as much as I did.

-DallanC


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

I don't hunt (other than coyotes on public lands) so I really don't have a problem with this attitude. I do wonder about hunters dollars from license fees, and general allotment monies (taxes) being used to maintain fish and wildlife that then find sanctuary on private land or in public water that flows through private land. These herds and populations of fish are maintained and perpetuated for the use of the public. Somehow their needs to be compromises made so the public can utilize the resource they help fund. I'm not sure that your work on your land actually entitles you to the wildlife and fish that migrate there from other areas or that have made that area their home for century's. Just a thought to consider.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I have fed their cows for free for years :mrgreen:
I have helped brand, put up and take down fence, kept a eye out for trespassers all for just being able to hunt varmits.
Land owners are just like everybody else. There are good ones and bad ones but it does seem the more they own the more it takes to get permission.
People need to remember they are just one of many trying to do the same thing and not everybody enjoys talking to strangers.
How many would like someone to come to your door sometimes many times a day to ask for permission to use your backyard for a party?


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

toymanator - great post! It is really cool to hear from the perspective of the landowner. To gain access to ground, I have helped on cattle drives, feeding cows during the winter, fixing fences, etc. The gift card idea is a really cool one, and I have done it a couple times. It's always cool to see the surprised look on the landowner's face when you hand them a gift card.


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## swampfox (Dec 30, 2014)

I guess I don't really see the problem the here. Some people asked to hunt your land, your wife said yes so they began to access the property, then you told them no and they left. You did offer some tips on how to better gain access to private land, but then went on to say that you have a rule that nobody but family can hunt the land so those tips wouldn't really help someone anyway. I get that having people ask you to hunt is annoying (it would bug me too), and I also get that it is your right to refuse people from doing so. But remember, it is also within their right to ask and they did nothing wrong by doing so and then obeying your wishes. Now, we could explore what gives a human being the right to "own" land and prevent others from accessing it (does money or history really grant someone that right?), but that would be a topic for another thread entirely and it is so deeply ingrained in our society at this point that it certainly isn't going to change anytime soon.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

swampfox said:


> I guess I don't really see the problem the here. Some people asked to hunt your land, your wife said yes so they began to access the property, then you told them no and they left. You did offer some tips on how to better gain access to private land, but then went on to say that you have a rule that nobody but family can hunt the land so those tips wouldn't really help someone anyway. I get that having people ask you to hunt is annoying (it would bug me too), and I also get that it is your right to refuse people from doing so. But remember, it is also within their right to ask and they did nothing wrong by doing so and then obeying your wishes. Now, we could explore what gives a human being the right to "own" land and prevent others from accessing it (does money or history really grant someone that right?), but that would be a topic for another thread entirely and it is so deeply ingrained in our society at this point that it certainly isn't going to change anytime soon.


Except his wife was never under the impression they were hunters according to the post:



> > She said a man had asked if they could go look at the turkeys in one of our fields, she said he seemed nice enough and had a ten year old kid with him. She said she felt awful because she didn't realize that they might be hunters, and after she said they could look at the turkeys the man called his friends and two other trucks came around the corner to our property each with an ATV in the back.


I have always found 100% transparency to be key in such situations. It would appear there was, at a minimum, a lack of clarity on the part of those requesting access and even the possibility of intentional deception.

I found his tips helpful as a landowner who previously allowed access to hunters. Insight from multiple perspectives can only help us move forward.

I am currently lucky enough to love backcountry hunting and prefer distance and solitude to proximity and what seems to be considered certainty. That might change when I have kids and/or less time to explore. There may also come a time when I am no longer a glutton for punishment but I have almost 20 years of nurturing that habit.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

swampfox said:


> I guess I don't really see the problem the here. Some people asked to hunt your land, your wife said yes so they began to access the property, then you told them no and they left. You did offer some tips on how to better gain access to private land, but then went on to say that you have a rule that nobody but family can hunt the land so those tips wouldn't really help someone anyway. I get that having people ask you to hunt is annoying (it would bug me too), and I also get that it is your right to refuse people from doing so. But remember, it is also within their right to ask and they did nothing wrong by doing so and then obeying your wishes. Now, we could explore what gives a human being the right to "own" land and prevent others from accessing it (does money or history really grant someone that right?), but that would be a topic for another thread entirely and it is so deeply ingrained in our society at this point that it certainly isn't going to change anytime soon.


This is why I was against "the new no need to post property" law. If it's posted, there is no question how the landowner feels about hunters (or intruders). But without it being posted, there's no knowing until you ask which is itself a nuisance to some landowners whether or not they allow it. In fact, many, if not most of the landowners west of here (Cedar City/Enoch) welcome antelope hunters and don't/haven't posted their property since owning it. They hate the "****" things along with mustangs and coyotes. It's their cattle's winter range and the antelope, mustangs, (and in some cases, elk) compete for the little range feed there is, and the coyotes take the calves. Gates are closed but unlocked with "Please close the Gate" signs on them. Additionally, few of them actually live on the land and only check on it a few times a week to make sure the waterholes/windmills are working and the livestock are ok. Any I've talked to ask only a few things; close the gates, don't damage the structures, don't shot or bother the livestock, stay on the roads/two track trails, and shoot every ##&% coyote you come across.

I've only had one landowner tell me no and that's because he thought my blind at the waterhole would keep the cattle away. I assured him it wouldn't, but he wasn't convinced and wouldn't let me hunt that property, though he let me hunt his other property where there weren't any cattle.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Good post. I appreciate the perspective. I'm disappointed when I'm not able to hunt a piece of private land, but I don't hold it against the landowner. I'm sure I'd tire of all the frustrating things public land hunters do every now and again if I were in their shoes.

The one private land connection I have now came because I developed a relationship with the landowner for an extended period of time (including helping out on the property) before ever asking for hunting access. I get it... no one likes being asked for handouts. But if they see that you're a reasonable person and are happy to give before you take, I think most landowners will be happy to help you out.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

soccerscotty21 said:


> The thing that bothers me is when landowners own the bottom land and the high ground is public, but since the bottom is private, the owners essentially own all the high ground hunting as well, since we can't cross the property to get to the public ground. This is happening more and more for lots of the best hunting areas.


 These type of areas have become some of my best honey-holes.8)


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I saw a Randy Newberg episode where he hired a helicopter pilot to drop him and his crew into a landlocked parcel of public land in MT. Must say i'd never thought of that before, but i'll seriously consider it in the future. Sounds fun!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Did he wait 3 days before hunting after the flight?


-DallanC


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Did he wait 3 days before hunting after the flight?
> 
> -DallanC


Does he have to wait that long? Can you post a link to the regulation please?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

MWScott72 said:


> I saw a Randy Newberg episode where he hired a helicopter pilot to drop him and his crew into a landlocked parcel of public land in MT. Must say i'd never thought of that before, but i'll seriously consider it in the future. Sounds fun!


I tend to think it would be cheaper to pay a landowner a bunch of money to cross his land than to pay a pilot a bunch of money to fly me in. Guess it depends on the landowner...

Interesting idea though.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

24 hours in Montana via "87-6-208. Unlawful use of aircraft" if spotted by aircraft.

Its strictly limited on USFS land in Montana (same code)



> Unless permitted by the department, a person may not use an aircraft, including a helicopter, for hunting purposes within the boundaries of a national forest except when cargo or persons are loaded and unloaded at federal aviation agency approved airports, aircraft landing fields, or heliports that have been established on private property or that have been established by any federal, state, county, or municipal governmental body. Hunting purposes include the transportation of hunters or wildlife and hunting equipment and supplies


Utah completely limits the use of aircraft to transport hunters during any hunt season, via R657-5-14.



> (2)(a) A person may not use any type of aircraft, drone, or other airborne vehicle or device from 48 hours before any big game hunt begins through 48 hours after any big game hunting season ends to:
> 
> (i) transport a hunter or hunting equipment into a hunting area;
> 
> ...


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Hopefully I'm not getting too off-track here, but I have a question for the landowners on the forum:

What would you consider a reasonable trespass fee to be for a private land cow elk hunt? Let's assume you have elk on the property and can offer a reasonably high probability of success.

It's easy for us average Joes to complain about paying $500+ to access land for a cow elk, but I know land ownership isn't cheap either. I'm curious to hear opinions from the other side.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Did he wait 3 days before hunting after the flight?
> 
> -DallanC


He did wait the required time period, but I seem to remember it as being 2 days. I could be wrong though. He did specifically mention that they had to wait before hunting and it was on public land.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Clarq said:


> MWScott72 said:
> 
> 
> > I saw a Randy Newberg episode where he hired a helicopter pilot to drop him and his crew into a landlocked parcel of public land in MT. Must say i'd never thought of that before, but i'll seriously consider it in the future. Sounds fun!
> ...


Landowner would not allow access at all.


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## muleydeermaniac (Jan 17, 2008)

Clarq said:


> Hopefully I'm not getting too off-track here, but I have a question for the landowners on the forum:
> 
> What would you consider a reasonable trespass fee to be for a private land cow elk hunt? Let's assume you have elk on the property and can offer a reasonably high probability of success.
> 
> It's easy for us average Joes to complain about paying $500+ to access land for a cow elk, but I know land ownership isn't cheap either. I'm curious to hear opinions from the other side.


The land owner just above my family property only charges $200 to get up on his land for cow elk. If it snows heavy enough the elk will come down to mine but that doesn't happen much. When it does I let a few hunters in because taking a few elk isn't a big deal and they are respectful of the rules.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

I have the only drive-way in the neighborhood that is on a hill. The neighbor kids love to ride up and down it on their bikes, skateboards, and little toy cars and such. The little buggers never ask permission. Sometimes they do ring the doorbell to beg for a Popsicle or candy which 9 out of 10 times we give them. We've found a few little scratches now and again on our cars, but nothing too serious yet. They tend to scream and yell and make lots of noise. The older boys in the neighborhood use the front lawn for neighborhood football games. I can't figure that one out since the lawn is kind of on a hill too. I suspect it is because I don't have trees. Sometimes when they are done playing they just lay or sit on my grass and talk. 

I know there are other neighbors who yell and tell the kids to stay out of their yard. I just don't want to be that kind of person. Yes, it takes patients and understanding and a little bit to keep the Popsicle's and candy around but it's not too bad.

I really imagine that if adults came over and wanted to BBQ in my backyard, I'd probably let them--maybe provide the Popsicle's.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

How much money do you get from the government each year? How many depredation tags do you get from the DNR? How many times have you filed crop lose claims with the government? If you take none of the above then good for you and you should be able to keep everyone off.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

HighNDry said:


> I really imagine that if adults came over and wanted to BBQ in my backyard, I'd probably let them--maybe provide the Popsicle's.


What flavor Popsicle's?


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Last fall Nambaster and I drew a couple of antelope tags in WY... I don't remember the exact circumstances of how it all went down but eventually we ended up getting in contact with a rancher out there and obtained permission to hunt his property for doe/fawn antelope. He had some very specific stipulations for us to abide by... which we did. He told us to not shoot around the livestock, close all gates, and that we had to wait until the deer hunt was over (he didn't want us interfering with paying clients on the deer hunt... we saw some very nice bucks). We were more than happy to oblige. After a successful hunt we mailed him the landowner vouchers along with a couple handwritten notes of gratitude for allowing access.
We reached out to that same rancher this spring prior to applying again in WY. We thought that the prudent thing to do would be to ask in advance rather than apply & ask with tags in hand already. We were again granted permission to hunt in the fall with the same stipulations.
I sincerely appreciate this rancher for granting us access. I also greatly appreciate the clarity of his stipulations, which made it very clear to us what his expectations were and thereby made it easy for us to not find ourselves on his bad side.

I'm impressed with the WY landowner voucher program, I think UT would do well to institute something similar to incentivize the landowner. And I think this year when we go out there I'm going to coordinate with the guys to all pitch in and include a gift card along with the vouchers and notes.


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## Blackbear53 (May 13, 2016)

Great write up couldn't agree more


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## bekins24 (Sep 22, 2015)

I haven't ever hunted private land but it makes sense in my mind that landowners can (and should) be selective with who they do let hunt their land. I would have no issues working for a landowner for a chance to hunt their land. I just hate when other hunters ruin it because they can't clean up after themselves which then taints landowners' view about the hunting population as a whole


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## Withabow (Sep 18, 2013)

We got to know a landowner a few years ago who lets us hunt ducks & geese on the river that borders her property. We're careful, clean up after ourselves, haul a little hay now and then and bring her a case of cat food and a big tin of Costco cookies every November. Everybody is happy. What really pisses us off is that we have kicked trespassers off her place more than once, and she says almost nobody except us (four in our group) offers her anything or even asks permission.


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## toymanator (Dec 29, 2010)

Clarq said:


> Hopefully I'm not getting too off-track here, but I have a question for the landowners on the forum:
> 
> What would you consider a reasonable trespass fee to be for a private land cow elk hunt? Let's assume you have elk on the property and can offer a reasonably high probability of success.
> 
> It's easy for us average Joes to complain about paying $500+ to access land for a cow elk, but I know land ownership isn't cheap either. I'm curious to hear opinions from the other side.


I think there are too many variables to adequately answer this question. For example, the property that I have access to often times has cow elk on it. However it isn't large enough to have herds of elk that stay year round. Last night I saw 4 cow elk, at other times of the year there are over 100 head on our property. I wouldn't feel good accepting $500 now for a cow elk tag in November, because I wouldn't know how many elk will be on the land at that time.



muddydogs said:


> How much money do you get from the government each year? How many depredation tags do you get from the DNR? How many times have you filed crop lose claims with the government? If you take none of the above then good for you and you should be able to keep everyone off.


We have never received anything from the government or DNR. And I know many of our neighbors are in the same boat.


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## toymanator (Dec 29, 2010)

This has really turned into a good discussion, I appreciate all of the responses. I thought I would add a few thoughts that have been on my mind and occurred over the last few days:

Each morning I wake up early and change the water lines for each of my crops. The chores take nearly an hour in the morning and evening. I typically complete them just before sun up/sundown, after which I take my dogs on a hike, and then head to work. It's the life I have chosen and I wouldn't trade it for anything else. Every few years we have to replant the alfalfa fields which I water every morning. Among other factors, the reason we have to replant the fields, is in part due to the deer and elk that graze these fields at night. The process alone to replant the fields is thousands of dollars. We let the wildlife graze and choose to spend the money every few years to replant our crops. Other landowners use other methods such as depredation tags to help mitigate some of the expenses of the wildlife damaging crops. The depredation tags and other methods to reclaim the costs that are incurred for planting the crops do not come close in comparison to the expenses incurred. The land we own feeds some wildlife every day throughout the year, I know this because I see them. The alfalfa fields I plant are not meant for the wildlife, they are meant for the livestock I raise. This is another reason why I think I can at times be protective of the land/wildlife on our property. For an outsider to come and want to harvest an animal that I have been feeding/watching all year can seem unnerving at times. I don't want it to sound like I am against it, only trying to show the landowners perspective when a hunter shows up and gives off the impression that they are entitled to harvest an animal because they were successful in the lottery/draw and paid the small fee the DWR charges for the privilege to hunt. 

Last night I was chatting with two of my neighbors. They watched the trucks pull up at my place for the turkey hunt the other day. Without me bringing it up they asked "what did they say to you?" I told them what had transpired, they each explained they had similar experiences, both of which had allowed them to access their land but had to kick them off when the one truck turned into three trucks. One of the neighbors wife had been approached by the men a week earlier after receiving permission they apparently took two turkeys off of their land. The wife was confused why they were back for more a few days later. The entire thing seemed deceiving and negatively affected the way each of us viewed outsiders coming to hunt on our land. I don't intend to pick on these guys, as mentioned in the original post I respect their dedication to the sport. However I think it is a good example for a discussion on how there is a better way to go about things.

I often hear the mindset that hunting is/can be "big business" for landowners. The truth is, it can help offset some of the expenses. However I don't think I am a minority land owner in saying the income generated from letting people hunt on our property would not make a major dent in the overall expenses we incur or the time we spend maintaining the land. It isn't always about the money, but as a landowner often times you have to run a tight ship. At the present time for me and a few of my neighbors the enticement to make a few bucks by letting people on our land isn't worth the hassle of dealing with it. I wish it weren't this way, I consider myself an avid outdoorsman and quite honestly feel like I am preaching to the choir. I am in the hills almost daily scouting some sort of wildlife. The alfalfa I grow is for my horses, which I ride in the mountains. As a landowner I don't say any of these things seeking pity. I would assume that the majority of those who are dedicated enough to frequent this board; are respectful to the land they cross, and the entities which own it, whoever it may be public/private.

One of my neighbors has a 13 year old son who is more of a hunter than I am. He has more trail cams set up in the hills than I can count. After our discussion the other night his dad said he was going to approach some of his friends with private land about letting his son come and work on their ranch in exchange for hunting privileges. He said "I need my son to know the value of work, and keep him out of trouble. This to me is similar to a dedicated hunter program without all of the paperwork and includes the added benefits of building relationships and learning skills" To me this seems like a very good compromise and means so much more because it involves the youth. I would have a very hard time turning away such a proposal. In fact if approached there are a few jobs around here I may even offer to pay the youth to complete, as well as allow hunting privileges, and as was mentioned I may offer them a popsicle.


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## toymanator (Dec 29, 2010)

I know this is an older thread but I thought I would bump this one back up to the top, and expound on a few more tips for gaining access to private land. I will highlight two experiences I have had in the last year since starting this thread. We will let these people be the examples for everyone to learn from.

*Know where you are hunting, don't cross a fence unless you know who owns it
*On the deer hunt last year, I had a buck picked out. I was at the bottom of the basin on my private land glassing him waiting to see where he would move. At the top of the mountain the buck was on, were two hunters. A father and his son, there is a narrow strip that I do not own along the ridge line. (it's approximately 50'x200' of land) I waited and watched because the buck was heading in there direction and I did not want to shoot towards them. I thought maybe he would be spooked by the other hunters and head back in my direction for a good shot. It was apparent the two hunters didn't see the buck as the son stood up and started hiking east away from the deer. He only had to walk 20' before he came in contact with my fence line. I watched as the high school age kid climbed over the fence walked another 200 yards and started blasting at a wounded two point buck. I use the term blasting because he unloaded 8 shots consecutively. I immediately started getting calls and text messages from my neighbors saying they heard shots and wondered if I had indeed shot a deer. As soon as the kid crossed my fence, I stood up from where I was glassing and began hiking up towards him. I knew my hunt was over that morning and decided to confront them. I yelled at the kid after his first shot and he continued to keep shooting with his dad watching a few hundred yards away. After he finished shooting, and noticed me hiking towards him. (I wasn't yelling obscenities or angry in any way just "hey this is private land") he headed back towards his dad and they turned away from me and began hiking. I was able to catch up to them and ask them if they had shot the deer. The kid said he was frustrated because he missed every time. (had he shot the buck I probably would have let him retrieve it) I told him they were on private land and were trespassing. The dad apologized and said he thought that all of it was public land. I then asked what he thought when he crossed the fence twice? He apologized and again said he thought it was all public. I spent a lot of time last year repairing all of my fences, I painted every other fence post red. (I recognize that most people don't know this is a universal sign that it is private land, I don't expect most people to recognize it at first. But for hunters look for clues such as this)

Can you climb over a fence without hurting it? Yes, but over time it puts wear and tear on a fence and guess who fixes it? The landowner... Wildlife do a number on our fences, don't add to it. Be respectful and go through fenced property at gates or designated areas. If you want to get on a land owners good side, ask them where access to certain areas are, have them describe where to get in and out of fences the fenced areas, where water crossings are, etc. When you encounter a fenced area on public land do not cross it unless you know who owns it. I own another piece of land in another county that is in between two roads. Last summer I built a gate and piled logs and debris nearly six feet high, over a washed out area from ATV's to prevent further erosion. While building the gate I took a lunch break and went to grab my chain saw. When I returned there were three ATV's going around the gate and trying to drive over the debris! :frusty: When I confronted them they said "We go through here all the time, and were surprised to see it blocked off"

*Don't assume because you have been given permission in the past you now have permission
*This last Sunday I came home and saw a group of guys on my property. I could see their dogs running around as I pulled in to my house. I hopped on my ATV to see what they were up to. As I was heading out towards them I watched as three of them climb over fences I have set up within my property. They heard the ATV and began walking away from me, as I caught up to them I asked what they were doing. They responded they were up there hiking around looking for sheds. I told them they were on private property and were trespassing. This was very obvious as they were almost in my backyard at this point. He replied that the man who owned this had given him permission in the past and said he didn't need to bother asking he could come and go anytime he wanted. To his credit, he did know the name of my grandfather who I purchased the land from years ago. This grandpa was more strict with the land than I am. Having known him I highly doubt he ever told anyone they could come and go without permission. I decided not to question him on that but respectfully told him that my grandpa had passed away a few years ago and hadn't owned the land in a long time. He said "oh yeah it would have been 15 or so years ago when he said I could hunt deer or elk anytime I wanted here" I told him you should never assume because you have had permission in the past that you now have permission. I explained to him that from a fellow hunter to another, had he asked my permission I would have told him no, because I have a turkey tag and there are a number of turkeys on my land now. With him, his buddies, and there dogs running around those turkeys will move on from my place and he most likely has ruined my turkey hunting for a few days. At this point the guy seemed a little agitated and said "you own this land but you don't own the land we were hiking on though right?" I said "I actually own all the land you have been on, the land you are standing on right now, and the land you have been hiking. Whether or not I owned the land you were hiking on, to access that land you need my permission. You can't walk through my land to access other land. But yes I do own all of the land and we haven't let anyone else up on that land other than family for over 15 years." He replied well then who is it that I see up there on horses all the time? I smiled and said "Me" He then sheepishly said "when we crossed your river the first time we got real wet, is there somewhere we can cross?" I replied "Yes, I will walk you out and show you one of the three bridges I have built to cross the river" As we walked out he apologized and asked a few questions about my grandpa.

Three times in the last year I have confronted people on my land who have said they received permission from someone in the past or someone I don't know. Recognize that things change, even if you were my best friend I wouldn't let you on our land at times. Maybe I am selfish, but I don't hike around looking for sheds right now because I am turkey hunting. There may be other reasons why a landowner wouldn't let you on his property during certain times than others. Maybe he let his bulls (cattle) out on the land to graze for a few months and he doesn't want you to get hurt. Last year we saw a bear cub on our land, I didn't let the nephews go anywhere near where we saw the cub. The field we were standing in when I was talking with this group had been recently planted, I was not happy that they were walking through it. I might have sprayed pesticides that could harm them. Or as I have experienced before, maybe you are planning to take family photos that day. You do not know the situation surrounding the land. One of the ways you can gain the respect of a landowner is even if he says "you don't even need to bother asking" be sure to ask.

As I mentioned in my first post, I don't want to come across as a crotchety old man. I share these experiences to give perspective and hopefully allow hunters to gain insight into the responsibilities I feel as a landowner. I also think that in the future hunting opportunities will be more and more a private land issue. Whether public lands are sold off, or everyone hunts the public land and pushes the animals all on to private land. I hope the conversation continues and we can all have better respect for the land and owners of the land both public and private. This discussion is all on private land but it could be the principles discussed in my opinion also apply to public land.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Good info. 

People have to have written permission to be on private ground now. It should be a simple matter for the landowner to put a date range on the slip to put an end to any future confusion.


-DallanC


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Very well stated. I'm seeing more and more red painted fences now and if I had not looked into it I would have not known what it stood for.


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