# Gameday gives MWC love Pay attention RR



## orvis1

This is a quote from college game day: "Nobody knows how good the MWC conference is top to bottom because the get no exposure other than gameday visiting 3 MWC games this year. You can't find the games. They can play with the big boys, Utah proved that last year when they put a foot in Alabama no one knew how good Utah was" plus "If Texas looses and TCU beats a PROVEN utah team would you vote them into play in the bcs national championship game?" "Desomond-I would have no problem doing this with quality wins against Virginia, Clemson, Air Force, BYU and this proven Utah they would deserve it." Everyone on the set agreed and called this the game of the month.

But your right Riverrat the MWC doesn't play REAL football, gameday obviously has no idea what they are talking about.

*RESPECT!*


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## Huge29

Wow! Good to hear, thanks!


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## Riverrat77

Wow... one team in the conference shows up all year and I'm supposed to ooo and ahhh over the MWC? :roll: Give me a break man, you might have just made Huge's day, but yeah, Gameday is wrong. Wonder how impressed they were when they came to LES and watched an unranked team smoke the home crew? Great job for the MWC..... how did Utah fare against Oregon... wow, what a display of true conference strength. :lol: C'mon man, this year is just like any other... the conference has one team that actually will show up and will get a decent bowl game.... the other bowls, just consolation prizes because well, you really suck but we don't want you to be left out so here you go.... 8) Again, since we have the Pac 0 or Pac 1 or whatever other lame, unimaginative name the MWC homies want to slap on it, do we need to rename the MWC the MWT since only one team shows up when the conference needs to show they should be bowl worthy every year? Sorry, this year shows why they aren't auto bids for the big bowls. :lol:


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## orvis1

Riverrat77 said:


> Wow... one team in the conference shows up all year and I'm supposed to ooo and ahhh over the MWC? :roll: Give me a break man, you might have just made Huge's day, but yeah, Gameday is wrong. Wonder how impressed they were when they came to LES and watched an unranked team smoke the home crew? Great job for the MWC..... how did Utah fare against Oregon... wow, what a display of true conference strength. :lol: C'mon man, this year is just like any other... the conference has one team that actually will show up and will get a decent bowl game.... the other bowls, just consolation prizes because well, you really suck but we don't want you to be left out so here you go.... 8) Again, since we have the Pac 0 or Pac 1 or whatever other lame, unimaginative name the MWC homies want to slap on it, do we need to rename the MWC the MWT since only one team shows up when the conference needs to show they should be bowl worthy every year? Sorry, this year shows why they aren't auto bids for the big bowls. :lol:


So if I understand you correctly you are the college football expert and College gameday on ESPN is incorrect...Let me know what channel to watch the riverrat network on. Thank you for making my argument for me. Oh yea how did the MIGHTY USC fair today? Riley you are a good guy but really smoking crack when it comes to your college football views. Watching tonight's game so far I would say TCU is head and shoulders above any pac 10 team and would love to see them on the field with bama, Texas, or Florida.


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## rapalahunter

Don't argue with Riley. He knows everything.


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## coyoteslayer

> Oh yea how did the MIGHTY USC fair today?


They got spanked today also :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## proutdoors

The PAC 10 champs will have at least 2 losses, the MWC champs will have ZERO losses. The powerhouse USC was rolled today, was beat by Washington who has a LOSING overall record, and this conference according to RR77 is light years ahead of the MWC is quality of football played. Nuff said about his creds carrying more weight than the College Game Day Analysts. :lol:


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## NHS

Welcome back Pro. 8)


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## proutdoors

NHS said:


> Welcome back Pro. 8)


Just passing through. I promised the wife I wouldn't spend much time on here anymore, so I will be a 'casual' "user". :mrgreen:

Congrats on the great elk! Impressive.


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## NHS

proutdoors said:


> NHS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome back Pro. 8)
> 
> 
> 
> Just passing through. I promised the wife I wouldn't spend much time on here anymore, so I will be a 'casual' "user". :mrgreen:
> 
> Congrats on the great elk! Impressive.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Sometimes its better to be lucky than good. I just got lucky. :mrgreen:


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## Riverrat77

orvis1 said:


> So if I understand you correctly you are the college football expert and College gameday on ESPN is incorrect...Let me know what channel to watch the riverrat network on. Thank you for making my argument for me. Oh yea how did the MIGHTY USC fair today? Riley you are a good guy but really smoking crack when it comes to your college football views. Watching tonight's game so far I would say TCU is head and shoulders above any pac 10 team and would love to see them on the field with bama, Texas, or Florida.


I never claimed to be an expert, thats just the handle I get hung with because I don't drink the MWC koolaid. :? How did Utah do against Oregon this year? BYU escapes against New Mexico (really? :roll: ) You really think Utah, BYU or anyone else other than TCU (who is beating the hell out of everyone) is going to hang with Oregon, USC, Stanford (I didn't even expect that), Arizona, ASU or Cal? I don't think so... not on their best day. Washington even has three wins and for a program under a new coach, I'd even give them the nod over everyone other than TCU. When you have a conference full of good teams, who will play each other tough at a high level every single week, then yes, you will wind up with conference champs with a couple losses. It happens. Am I supposed to apologize here for liking the Pac-10 who consistently puts up more than one good team every year? Sorry, not going to happen. I suppose it would be easier for the MWC to gain some respect if the other conferences would limit themselves to only one good team per year but I doubt the MWC will have an easy time convincing that Pac10 or any of the other conferences that because the MWC sucks, the rest of them have to pretend that they do too..... :lol: TCU is the one team that actually is respectable from this conference this year and they could play with anyone in the country, but the rest, well, lets just say if you believe that, then I'm definitely not the one smoking crack. 8)


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## jahan

Riverrat77 said:


> orvis1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if I understand you correctly you are the college football expert and College gameday on ESPN is incorrect...Let me know what channel to watch the riverrat network on. Thank you for making my argument for me. Oh yea how did the MIGHTY USC fair today? Riley you are a good guy but really smoking crack when it comes to your college football views. Watching tonight's game so far I would say TCU is head and shoulders above any pac 10 team and would love to see them on the field with bama, Texas, or Florida.
> 
> 
> 
> I never claimed to be an expert, thats just the handle I get hung with because I don't drink the MWC koolaid. :? How did Utah do against Oregon this year? BYU escapes against New Mexico (really? :roll: ) You really think Utah, BYU or anyone else other than TCU (who is beating the hell out of everyone) is going to hang with Oregon, USC, Stanford (I didn't even expect that), Arizona, ASU or Cal? I don't think so... not on their best day. Washington even has three wins and for a program under a new coach, I'd even give them the nod over everyone other than TCU. When you have a conference full of good teams, who will play each other tough at a high level every single week, then yes, you will wind up with conference champs with a couple losses. It happens. Am I supposed to apologize here for liking the Pac-10 who consistently puts up more than one good team every year? Sorry, not going to happen. I suppose it would be easier for the MWC to gain some respect if the other conferences would limit themselves to only one good team per year but I doubt the MWC will have an easy time convincing that Pac10 or any of the other conferences that because the MWC sucks, the rest of them have to pretend that they do too..... :lol: TCU is the one team that actually is respectable from this conference this year and they could play with anyone in the country, but the rest, well, lets just say if you believe that, then I'm definitely not the one smoking crack. 8)
Click to expand...

You say people are drinking the MWC Kool-aid, man lay off the PAC-10 crack pipe. I would put Utah up against most any of the PAC-10 teams right now, TCU would destroy everyone of them. As far as your Washington comment, you a very funny man. :lol: Utah State would give Washington a run for their money. There is a possibility that we could see Utah vs. USC in the Vegas Bowl. That would be interesting, do you know what happened last time Utah played USC in a bowl. If you don't know it resulted in a loss for the Trojans. 8)


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## stablebuck

How many times do I have to say that the MWC is no longer the MWC...it's the FWHTC...Forth Worth Horny Toad Conference...


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## Riverrat77

I'll save my breath here and say that I think you're wrong. I don't think anyone from the MWC could hang with anybody from the Pac 10. Utah had their chance and failed miserably. BYU played Arizona last year in a bowl after having a better season and tanked that chance. Why would you give them more credit based on those performances when their teams look even worse this year? You're a Utah State fan dude.... they'd have a hard time beating the East Carbon high powderpuff team, let alone somebody who plays in a far better conference. :roll: 

Garyfish is somebody I totally agree with because he's real about the status of the MWC, not one of the folks wishing for more credit or respect than the conference actually deserves. Do I think TCU could hang in the Pac 10? Sure, this year maybe.... I don't know that they would dominate the conference... its a lot different than playing ball around here but they could do quite well I think. I do think and won't back off on this at all, that nobody else from the MWC could even make a dent in a Pac 10 schedule (Air Force probably should get a little credit for doing as well as they do since their kids certainly aren't there just to play sports). As for everyone else, they would be bringing a knife to a gun fight. 8)


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## Riverrat77

stablebuck said:


> How many times do I have to say that the MWC is no longer the MWC...it's the FWHTC...Forth Worth Horny Toad Conference...


You... are correct sir. 8) Don't worry, I won't tell anyone else that you make more sense than they do.... it doesn't fly well with most of them and they hate realists. :wink:


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## stablebuck

BYU and Utah are horrible this year...if TCU HADN'T beaten them both by 20+ points I would've questioned TCU's current ranking. BYU and Utah are to TCU what Baylor is to Texas. Night and Day...
Bringing TCU into the MWC was terrific for the MWC as a whole, but a nightmare for BYU and Utah fans...


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## Treehugnhuntr

Rat, you say silly things and I hope for sanity and credibility's sake, you don't actually believe the nonsensical horse **** that you type in regards to sports, cause it's just down right laughable.










Have a good day.

T-gigglingatthepossibilityofratactuallybelieveingthisstuff-horse


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## GaryFish

Riverrat77 said:


> Garyfish is somebody I totally agree with because he's real about the status of the MWC, not one of the folks wishing for more credit or respect than the conference actually deserves.


I guess I am flattered by that? ;-)

ESPN has showed up at the MWC three times (really two times and I'll explain) because that particular week, the TCU vs. BYU and TCU vs. Utah was the most compelling match up for the flavor of the month - TCU. Sure, that is part of the MWC - but if BSU was playing anyone decent - you can bet the smurf turf would be in the background.

As for Game Day being at the Air Force-Army game - that was NOT about the MWC. It was about honoring our armed forces during the week of Vetrans Day. It just happened that it was in Colorado Springs. I would hope that every year, two of the military acadamies would play that week and it be the feature game. It is a tradition the entire nation could get behind!

As for MWC teams - TCU is freakishly good this year. I really think they would give Florida, Bama or Texas a really tough game. They would dominate any conference (except SEC or Big 12 - and those it would depend on what division they were in). TCU would dominate the Pac-10 this year. The Pac-10 as I've seen it has many good-very good teams but no dominant team. I think if BYU or Utah were in the Pac-10 this year, they'd be in the 5-6th place area. The rest of the MWC would be winless in the Pac-10 this year. The MWC can take happiness I guess knowing that their top 3 teams would probably beat any Conference USA, Sunbelt, MAC, or WAC team on most days. So I guess we have that going for us. :roll:


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## GaryFish

stablebuck said:


> Bringing TCU into the MWC was terrific for the MWC as a whole, but a nightmare for BYU and Utah fans...


I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Since TCU came in, this is the first year they have beaten both BYU AND Utah. And will be their first outright MWC title. TCU certainly owned both teams this year, but that hasn't been the case before.


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## stablebuck

BYU and Utah SUCK this year...end of story.


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## stablebuck

GaryFish said:


> stablebuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bringing TCU into the MWC was terrific for the MWC as a whole, but a nightmare for BYU and Utah fans...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Since TCU came in, this is the first year they have beaten both BYU AND Utah. And will be their first outright MWC title. TCU certainly owned both teams this year, but that hasn't been the case before.
Click to expand...

well no one falls asleep and instantly has a nightmare...it takes a little time, but the truth of the matter is that this BYU/Utah nightmare isn't ending soon...the only thing helping get recruits to Utah is the loosening of the alcohol rules this summer...so I'm pretty sure TCU will be getting all the MWC recruits for a while after this year...


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## Treehugnhuntr

Neither team "sucks" this year, their still second in their conference, below a possible BCS championship team, so I think your nomenclature is a bit off, Donnie.


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## orvis1

Wow you really like swinging from the PAC 10's sack don't you RR. If you want to make that argument It is like saying that 3/4 of the PAC 10 teams would be win less in the SEC. Does that mean the PAC 10 sucks no, is the PAC 10 deserved of an automatic qualifier into the BCS, I say yes. That is the difference between rational thinking fans and fanatics that are sucking on that big glass pipe loving the PAC 10. Do I think the MWC over the past 5 years has a great argument to take the automatic bid from the Big East or the ACC conference, again I say yes. You don't have to be a fan to give the MWC a little respect if ESPN can do it so can RR. If Boise were to come to the MWC with Fresno state and we dump a few bottom dwellers I would dare say the MWC would be on par with the PAC 10. 


P.S. You do know most people think you are a complete moron when it comes to your opinion of college football right? I can't believe a cowboys fan would think like this.


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## orvis1

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Neither team "sucks" this year, their still second in their conference, below a possible BCS championship team, so I think your nomenclature is a bit off, Donnie.


I hate to admit this but I am 100% with Treehugnhuntr according to the polls Utah and BYU are both in the to 25 teams in the country. If that sucks then I guess anyone not in the top 10 just suck then right?


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## Treehugnhuntr

orvis1 said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neither team "sucks" this year, their still second in their conference, below a possible BCS championship team, so I think your nomenclature is a bit off, Donnie.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to admit this but I am 100% with Treehugnhuntr according to the polls Utah and BYU are both in the to 25 teams in the country. If that sucks then I guess anyone not in the top 10 just suck then right?
Click to expand...

You can agree with me sometimes, we've had our extra-marital spats, but I'd like to think that those are in the distant past. :wink: (There's the winky guy you are so fond of. :mrgreen: )


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## The Janitor

orvis1 said:


> If Boise were to come to the MWC with Fresno state and we dump a few bottom dwellers I would dare say the MWC would be on par with the PAC 10.


+1

Boise and Fresno are much needed additons to the conference. I would love to see UNLV, New Mexico, and San Diego State let go. After watching the TCU/Utah game on a website that I posted, it became appearant to me (after reading their comments) that Boise State fans need a major humbling. Boise is a good team, but their fans think that they are invincible. They point out their victories over MWC teams but fail to take into account that they have never played BYU or Utah in any of their good years. They played BYU during the Crowton era, and Utah when they were down. Boise was in a good year last year and lost to TCU. In Boise's good years they almost lost to Wyoming. I would love for the MWC to add Boise though.

TCU is good this year but they will pay the price for this year in the years to come.

The pac-10 is good, but not as good as some think. Some point out the bowl game aainst Arizona, but fail to mention that BYU beat Arizona the year before. Utah beat them a few times recently. Arizona State got beat at home by UNLV last year, and we all remember when BYU dismantled Oregon. Washington would probably have a hard time beating Colorado State. The PAC-10 is better this year, but not by much, and I think they will have to watch their backs in years to come because they are no longer head and shoulders above the MWC. TCU is better than their entire conference this year. USC, Oregon, or Stanford better hope they don't get matched up in a bowl game against Texas, Florida, Alabama, because they will get exposed, only showing that the PAC-10's best this year cannot play with the top teams from the Big 12 or the SEC. USC is the only team they have that normally could, and when they are not up to par, well the conference is not up to par, but it sure makes Oregon, and Stanford think they are great.


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## stablebuck

yeah they're below TCU alright...kind of like Joe Dirt in the pit in the Buffalo Bob's basement...they are by no means on the rung beneath TCU though...

How much did Stanford beat Oregon by? How much did Oregon beat Utah by? How many overtimes does it take Utah to beat AF AT HOME? Is Stanford really THAT good?

I think I'm starting to define "suck"...but I have been wrong before like when I was super confident that TCU was gonna cover the spread on 14 Nov...oh wait...


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## Riverrat77

How did the Pac 10 do in bowls last year... I'm with you Stablebuck... I hate being proven right.  For the numbers geeks.... all time winning percentages. 

Teams in the MWC (I even threw in the WAC years to do the MWC a favor) .498
Pac 10 - .505

MWC teams against Pac 10 teams - you don't want those numbers since the Pac 10 is so horrible.... but I'm going to give them to you anyway, because as Huge keeps accusing me, I'm so childish that I take pain in your sorrow. :lol: Honestly, I just report the numbers, because unfortunately for some of you, those can't be swayed by your personal opinion of your particular team, no matter how unrealistic that may be. :? 

TCU - Best of them all.... .500
CSU - .227
SDSU - .163
U of U - .327
BYU - .385
AFA - .404
UW - .412
UNM - .250
UNLV - .308

Just for my pal Jahan.... Utah State has a .118 winning percentage against the Pac 10. Remind me again how you guys figure the MWC is better again? Thanks.... 8)


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## jahan

Riverrat77 said:


> How did the Pac 10 do in bowls last year... I'm with you Stablebuck... I hate being proven right.  For the numbers geeks.... all time winning percentages.
> 
> Teams in the MWC (I even threw in the WAC years to do the MWC a favor) .498
> Pac 10 - .505
> 
> MWC teams against Pac 10 teams - you don't want those numbers since the Pac 10 is so horrible.... but I'm going to give them to you anyway, because as Huge keeps accusing me, I'm so childish that I take pain in your sorrow. :lol: Honestly, I just report the numbers, because unfortunately for some of you, those can't be swayed by your personal opinion of your particular team, no matter how unrealistic that may be. :?
> 
> TCU - Best of them all.... .500
> CSU - .227
> SDSU - .163
> U of U - .327
> BYU - .385
> AFA - .404
> UW - .412
> UNM - .250
> UNLV - .308
> 
> Just for my pal Jahan.... Utah State has a .118 winning percentage against the Pac 10. Remind me again how you guys figure the MWC is better again? Thanks.... 8)


Never bragged about Utah State the way you do Washington. I know they suck, but they are slowly coming around. All I said is Utah State would give Washington a good game and Utah State has been everyone's whipping boy for years. Also where did you find those numbers and how many years are you going back, I can make up any statistics you want just give me some time. :wink: :lol:

Stable so which team is the flavor of the month? If a top 25 team, 10+ win teams sucks there are a lot of ****ty teams out there.

P.S. Also I never said the MWC was better than the PAC-10, but they are close.


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## orvis1

Riverrat77 said:


> How did the Pac 10 do in bowls last year... I'm with you Stablebuck... I hate being proven right.  For the numbers geeks.... all time winning percentages.
> 
> Teams in the MWC (I even threw in the WAC years to do the MWC a favor) .498
> Pac 10 - .505
> 
> MWC teams against Pac 10 teams - you don't want those numbers since the Pac 10 is so horrible.... but I'm going to give them to you anyway, because as Huge keeps accusing me, I'm so childish that I take pain in your sorrow. :lol: Honestly, I just report the numbers, because unfortunately for some of you, those can't be swayed by your personal opinion of your particular team, no matter how unrealistic that may be. :?
> 
> TCU - Best of them all.... .500
> CSU - .227
> SDSU - .163
> U of U - .327
> BYU - .385
> AFA - .404
> UW - .412
> UNM - .250
> UNLV - .308
> 
> Just for my pal Jahan.... Utah State has a .118 winning percentage against the Pac 10. Remind me again how you guys figure the MWC is better again? Thanks.... 8)


So you totally dodge my post. You don't care on commenting if over the last five years of play the MWC should or should not take the automatic berth to the BCS from the big east or the ACC? You do or do not agree adding boise and fresno while dropping some of the cellar dwellers would put the MWC on par with the PAC 10. Plus did Utah steal all the recruits in 04 and 08? No teams have good years and down years look even USC is having a down year. No wonder Pete Carrol through a fit when Sanchez left he knew he was screwed...


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## stablebuck

Well I could start listing the teams that have the most wins of all time or the teams that have been ranked the most number of years in a row, but that's only gonna make Utah and BYU fans more upset. What the hell? Here they are...

Alabama
Texas
Oklahoma
Michigan
ND
Nebraska
Ohio State

I think I'd have to keep going past like #30 before I'd get to Utah or BYU...don't shoot the messenger!

Utah had a great defense last year and that is why they did as well as they did...BYU has a national title from 1984...
Both teams can win games, but just not every year like Alabama or Texas or Ohio State...


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## jahan

stablebuck said:


> Well I could start listing the teams that have the most wins of all time or the teams that have been ranked the most number of years in a row, but that's only gonna make Utah and BYU fans more upset. What the hell? Here they are...
> 
> Alabama
> Texas
> Oklahoma
> Michigan
> ND
> Nebraska
> Ohio State
> 
> I think I'd have to keep going past like #30 before I'd get to Utah or BYU...don't shoot the messenger!
> 
> Utah had a great defense last year and that is why they did as well as they did...BYU has a national title from 1984...
> *Both teams can win games, but just not every year like Alabama or Texas or Ohio State...*


Man you could have picked much better examples. :wink: :lol: Alabama had several ****ty years, Ohio State may be one of the most over rated programs in the nation. Every team has there ups and downs. The MWC is no where near as good of a conference as SEC, Big 12, and Big 10, but I would put them right there slightly below PAC-10 and above the ACC and Big East in football. If they picked up Boise, Fresno and Nevada they should be an automatic BCS team IMO.


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## Riverrat77

orvis1 said:


> So you totally dodge my post. You don't care on commenting if over the last five years of play the MWC should or should not take the automatic berth to the BCS from the big east or the ACC? You do or do not agree adding boise and fresno while dropping some of the cellar dwellers would put the MWC on par with the PAC 10. Plus did Utah steal all the recruits in 04 and 08? No teams have good years and down years look even USC is having a down year. No wonder Pete Carrol through a fit when Sanchez left he knew he was screwed...


Sorry Orvis, that wasn't intentional. About taking the auto bid from the other two conferences.... I honestly don't think so. I think Utah in 04 and TCU this year are the only two good teams the conference has had... this decade. Otherwise, they'd get worked elsewhere. Utah escaped a couple games last year and didn't look good at all (I saw the games, its not like I'm just making this up).... the game against Bama was a fluke win, that wasn't the week in and week out Bama team (look at this year... pretty darn close to the exact same team). I can't speak for their attitude but obviously they weren't mentally ready to play that game and it cost them... however, I don't blame them for feeling slighted. They still should have come out and played Bama ball and stomped Utah into the turf... because they could have. Would they absolutely smoke Utah, BYU or anyone in the MWC if that game was played again? Absolutely... even though TCU would give them all they could handle this year, I still don't think they'd win. Utah didn't steal all the recruits in those years.... but they are also playing in the MWC so who doesn't look good when half your schedule is made up of teams like UNLV, UNM, UW, SDSU, and CSU? They'd still be looking for a single undefeated season (and goodbye any chance of a BCS game) if they were playing in one of the current BCS conferences. Teams do have good years and bad years, I agree, but how do you explain that to the BYU folks? They think that because of the cupcake championship in 84 that they deserve national recognition every year... just ask Huge. 8)

Jahan, the reason I like crunching numbers off a site is it exposes ridiculous claims like Washington being the worst Pac 10 team ever, the Pac 10 being worse than the MWC and not worthy of a BCS bid etc.... Washington is my team, who plays in the Pac 10. Why wouldn't I support them or that conference? I've also been realistic about how good or bad Washington is... but they're definitely not Utah State bad, sorry man. :lol: Here's one of the sites I got numbers from and the other one I'll have to look up again... it was linked on ESPN as one of their college football win percentage databases.

http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/poll ... ent_h.html


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## Riverrat77

jahan said:


> Man you could have picked much better examples. :wink: :lol: Alabama had several **** years, Ohio State may be one of the most over rated programs in the nation. Every team has there ups and downs. The MWC is no where near as good of a conference as SEC, Big 12, and Big 10, but I would put them right there slightly below PAC-10 and above the ACC and Big East in football. If they picked up Boise, Fresno and Nevada they should be an automatic BCS team IMO.


I wonder where and how you formed your opinions man.... Bama has almost more championships than anyone else in college football. They are a perfect example... the SEC as a whole is consistently very good. The Big 12 south is always very good but the north is spotty at best. OSU is also one of the perennial contenders for the Big 10 championship. Iowa was a little overrated, but the way they played should look really familiar to fans of last years Utes team....in my opinion anyway :shock: The thing about adding BSU, FSU and Nevada is that the MWC would again wind up with one good team every year, and the rest of the conference would stay as it is.... just average in a slightly tougher conference. For a smaller conference, teams would have to leave and be added one at a time to a bigger conference, the Big 12, the pac 10 or something like that. Staying a small conference and adding top small conference teams still isn't going to accomplish what the folks around here are after. Its going to mean a higher chance of losing games (especially for teams like Utah, BYU and TCU) but won't really increase their strength of schedule to create an "auto bid" setting.


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## GaryFish

Those advocating for expansion of the MWC have a short memory. They clearly don't remember what a mess the "mega-WAC" was with their 16 teams, 4 quad systems. It is not the lack of top level teams that hurts the MWC. It is the crap at the bottom. 

All that said - the MWC will put its 3rd team in 5 years into a BCS game. I'm not sure why anyone is complaining. If the BCS were up to me - I'd have no automatic qualifiers. Period. Top 10 teams would duke it out - regardless of conference. 

Which leads me to another part of the discussion that MWC fans don't want to talk about. Follow me on this one.
1- It is not fair that MWC does not get an automatic berth in a BCS game when the ACC and Big East do.
2- MWC wants an automatic berth in a BCS game. 
3- If MWC wants an automatic berth based on fairness - isn't that still unfair to the WAC, MAC, Conference USA and Sunbelt? Only the MWC would be on the inside so we'd be happy.
4- If the MWC wants to argue on the issue of fairness, inclusion will not change that. 
5- MWC can argue for automatic inclusion based on bitterness - but not fairness. Unless the WAC, MAC, C-USA and Sunbelt are included. Otherwise, its just garbage. 
6- Once all conferences are included at that point, things are so diluted that inclusion in a BCS game is as meaningless as playing the Pac-10 #5 in our "featured" bowl every year.


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## Riverrat77

Gary... you sure you're feeling ok? You seem to be on one here lately... I like it, but its not normal for MWC fans. Preach on brother, it sounds good from where I'm at in the back of the building. 8)


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## orvis1

Wow river rat you amaze me. I guess I will just agree to disagree I will stick with expert analysis like ESPN every time over mindless fan dribble. 

The best system would be to take the top 10 or top 16 and playoff like every other major college sport. Since that is not going to happen why not present the argument that over the last 5 years the MWC is more deserving than the big east and the acc. 

River Rat you argue that adding 2 quality teams like BSU and Fesno state would not help the conference yet your whole argument is based on MWC being weak after TCU, Utah, and BYU. You constantly compare this to the "quality" teams of the PAC 10 like UCLA, Arizona State, Washington, and Washington State. Sorry you can't argue both ends of the stick. 

I think the T.V. deal the MWC signed was one of the worst thing that could have been done for the league. I think the commissioner really needs to get us better bowl affiliations what we have now really sucks. 

Either way I started this thread to show the MWC has come a long way in 5 years including 2 BCS wins and a third to come.


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## jahan

Riverrat77 said:


> orvis1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you totally dodge my post. You don't care on commenting if over the last five years of play the MWC should or should not take the automatic berth to the BCS from the big east or the ACC? You do or do not agree adding boise and fresno while dropping some of the cellar dwellers would put the MWC on par with the PAC 10. Plus did Utah steal all the recruits in 04 and 08? No teams have good years and down years look even USC is having a down year. No wonder Pete Carrol through a fit when Sanchez left he knew he was screwed...
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Orvis, that wasn't intentional. About taking the auto bid from the other two conferences.... I honestly don't think so. I think Utah in 04 and TCU this year are the only two good teams the conference has had... this decade. Otherwise, they'd get worked elsewhere. Utah escaped a couple games last year and didn't look good at all (I saw the games, its not like I'm just making this up).... the game against Bama was a fluke win, that wasn't the week in and week out Bama team (look at this year... pretty darn close to the exact same team). I can't speak for their attitude but obviously they weren't mentally ready to play that game and it cost them... however, I don't blame them for feeling slighted. They still should have come out and played Bama ball and stomped Utah into the turf... because they could have. Would they absolutely smoke Utah, BYU or anyone in the MWC if that game was played again? Absolutely... even though TCU would give them all they could handle this year, I still don't think they'd win. Utah didn't steal all the recruits in those years.... but they are also playing in the MWC so who doesn't look good when half your schedule is made up of teams like UNLV, UNM, UW, SDSU, and CSU? They'd still be looking for a single undefeated season (and goodbye any chance of a BCS game) if they were playing in one of the current BCS conferences. Teams do have good years and bad years, I agree, but how do you explain that to the BYU folks? They think that because of the cupcake championship in 84 that they deserve national recognition every year... just ask Huge. 8)
> 
> Jahan, the reason I like crunching numbers off a site is it exposes ridiculous claims like Washington being the worst Pac 10 team ever, the Pac 10 being worse than the MWC and not worthy of a BCS bid etc.... Washington is my team, who plays in the Pac 10. Why wouldn't I support them or that conference? I've also been realistic about how good or bad Washington is... but they're definitely not Utah State bad, sorry man. :lol: Here's one of the sites I got numbers from and the other one I'll have to look up again... it was linked on ESPN as one of their college football win percentage databases.
> 
> http://www.collegefootballpoll.com/poll ... ent_h.html
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it is hard to say how a Utah, TCU, or BYU would do against these "higher caliber" teams week in and week out, because they only play them every now and again. Like I have said before these smaller schools get much more bang for their buck. One of my biggest pet peeves about the BCS teams is the amount of extra money they get for their conferences that these smaller schools have a harder time getting a chance at.

Also by your definition of "good teams" USC would be about the only school I would say is good most years out of the PAC-10.

The BCS schools don't want the playoff system because they would lose big time money, but the playoff system is the most fair and best way to find out truly who the best teams are.


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## GaryFish

I don't buy the money argument nearly as much as I used to. Look at revenue from football that schools like Florida, Texas, USC, and The Ohio State University have. Then when you realize that a BCS pay off is about 2% of their total revenue - you realize that our humble little MWC is a very small wave in a much larger ocean that we really don't comprehend. It is about control and eliciting fan spending/donations far more than it is about bowl revenue.


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## orvis1

GaryFish said:


> I don't buy the money argument nearly as much as I used to. Look at revenue from football that schools like Florida, Texas, USC, and The Ohio State University have. Then when you realize that a BCS pay off is about 2% of their total revenue - you realize that our humble little MWC is a very small wave in a much larger ocean that we really don't comprehend. It is about control and eliciting fan spending/donations far more than it is about bowl revenue.


It is also about keeping the 17.3 mil payout inside the power conferences.


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## GaryFish

That 17.3 million is a drop in the bucket.


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> That 17.3 million is a drop in the bucket.


Not for the smaller conferences.


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## GaryFish

jahan said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 17.3 million is a drop in the bucket.
> 
> 
> 
> Not for the smaller conferences.
Click to expand...

Which really drives home the point. The BCS pay-out re-defines a program like Utah, BSU, Hawaii, or TCU financially. Its beer money for a program like USC, Nebraska, OU, Florida, Texas, Alabama, The Ohio State, Penn State, Notre Dame, etc.........


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## jahan

That is a lot of dough.


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## The Janitor

fatbass said:


> As it is now, the MWC is NOT a tougher conference than the ACC or Big East. Sorry. 8)
> 
> BUT!...They could be if they expand, according to Lee Hamilton.
> 
> http://www.mwcconnection.com/2009/11/11 ... -to-expand


Wrong, they are better than the Big East historically, this year, and I believe they will be in the future. Check it out if you don't believe me. Now that's messed up that the Big East even gets an autmatic bid into the BCS.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/di ... s_conf.php

The focus right now should be on the Big East, the other five conferences still are better than the Mtn. West. but I think the MWC can close the gap.

I'm not arguing that the MWC has always been as good as they are becoming, but I think they are starting to show that they are getting better and will be consistent contenders in the years to come. The old days of only hoping for miracles against big schools are fading, and I think certain teams are showing they fully expect to win for good reason.

Garyfish, with your attitude, why do you even bother to watch BYU play. You're starting to seem like the defeated, parasitic fan who believes they shouldn't even think about taking on the big names or even try to improve.


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## GaryFish

The Janitor said:


> Garyfish, with your attitude, why do you even bother to watch BYU play. You're starting to seem like the defeated, parasitic fan who believes they shouldn't even think about taking on the big names or even try to improve.


I'm a hard core BYU fan. I love it when they play big name teams. The first BYU game I attended, the Cougs kicked the crap out of the Texas Longhorns and I've loved it ever since. I can give you dozens of reasons why I think they are the best overall football program in the nation. (The main reason is the program is about all 100 players on the team, not just the 10 or 12 that will actually make their living in football). I couldn't be more excited that they are on their way to their 4th straight 10+ win season.

But my thing is this - I don't want BYU to be like Ohio State, Florida, Texas, Alabama, USC, Oklahoma, etc.... I want them to be like BYU. I don't want BYU players landing in jail (and it really irritates me when they do!). I don't want BYU having recruiting violations (Florida or Alabama anyone?). I want BYU football to be what it is - a great entertainment experience for students to blow off steam on a few Saturdays in the fall (heaven knows they need something to help relax since beer and sex are out of the question!). I want the football team to be something that fans can rally around. I want the team to be a reason for alumni to stay connected to the University. And most of all - I don't want the core values of the university to be sold out for money.

I am realistic enough to realize that in the top football programs in the nation, they have budgets large enough to buy up third world nations. Players have no life other than football. Players are used for the sole purpose of financial gain to the school, and left with nothing when their eligibility runs out. Which is fine for the 5-10% from any school that will make it to the next level but craps on the 90% who won't.

I don't hate on the BYU football program. In fact, nothing could be further from it. I love the program as Coach Mendenhall is running things. Do I hate when the utes have beat us? Yep. Was I ticked about the losses to FSU and TCU? Absolutely. But if it takes selling out the program and the lives of the players to go 12-0, I'd rather not. And for BYU to be where Florida, Texas, USC, OU, OSU are in most years, it would take that level of selling out.


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## Riverrat77

orvis1 said:


> Wow river rat you amaze me. I amaze me too... kinda fun finding proof when you really start digging.
> 
> River Rat you argue that adding 2 quality teams like BSU and Fesno state would not help the conference yet your whole argument is based on MWC being weak after TCU, Utah, and BYU. You constantly compare this to the "quality" teams of the PAC 10 like UCLA, Arizona State, Washington, and Washington State. Sorry you can't argue both ends of the stick. I think that Washington and ASU could take any team in the MWC with the exception of TCU. WSU has been the doormat for a little while, hell, its been bad for the state of Washington for several years. :lol: UCLA, well, this year they might not be great, but they're usually in the mix too. If I remember right, they split a season series with the MWC last year when the MWC team was supposed to steamroll them. Adding top WAC teams might help a little, but like I said, then the chance is there for more losses per team and the MWC will still wind up only sending one team per year to a good bowl, if they make it that far. A one or two loss MWC team would still not deserve an auto bid, not even close. The better option would be for one of the WAC teams or a MWC team to jump ship to a big conference where they could play some tougher competition.
> 
> I think the T.V. deal the MWC signed was one of the worst thing that could have been done for the league. I think the commissioner really needs to get us better bowl affiliations what we have now really sucks. I don't know anything about this....
> 
> Either way I started this thread to show the MWC has come a long way in 5 years including 2 BCS wins and a third to come.]They've come a long way, no doubt.... but they're a ways out from deserving an auto bid to a BCS game.


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## jahan

Riley you are talking about the 3-7 Washington Huskies right? Man lay off the ****ing crack dude. They would barely be able to beat the Aggies and the Aggies suck. Washington would lose to over half the MWC teams. I think Stanford is the most underrated team in the PAC-10. Oregon and USC are good, but the rest of the top 6 are decent, but I think about even with Utah and BYU. I have never said the MWC is better than the PAC-10, I just don't think they are anything to write home about, especially compared to the real conferences, i.e. SEC, Big 12 and occasionally Big 10.


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## orvis1

They've come a long way, no doubt.... but they're a ways out from deserving an auto bid to a BCS game.

My argument has never been that the MWC is better than the pac 10 although you seem take it that way and make it some kind of pissing match. My point was to point out that the MWC is finally getting some national respect for the strides made in the conference for the quality of play. Thank you for your first attempt to give the credit that the MWC conference earned coming a long way in the past 5 years. Why it took you six pages to admit that ESPN knows what they are talking about is beyond me.


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## GaryFish

> That's a pretty broad, cynical, myopic brush you're painting with there, Gary. BYU has had it's share of criminals over the years.


Yes. They have. And I'd rather they lose with non-criminals than win with them. BYU did not treat McMahan well, nor did McMahan keep his committments to BYU. They both used each other and just kind of turned the other cheek. And I think that's crap. It wasn't good then. And it isn't good now.

Bama has cleaned up their program. But I am guessing that Saben expects his players to have football as their top and only priority from August through January. Which is just fine for the 12 guys that will end up in the NFL. But for the other 80-90 guys, it doesn't work out. I'm not picking on Bama. This is every program at the elite level. Including Utah when they have gone undefeated. Players that played for Urban Liar tell that story - that they were expected to eat, sleep, drink, work football 16 hours/day during the season. And it showed - they were very very very good.


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## Riverrat77

orvis1 said:


> They've come a long way, no doubt.... but they're a ways out from deserving an auto bid to a BCS game.
> 
> My argument has never been that the MWC is better than the pac 10 although you seem take it that way and make it some kind of **** match. My point was to point out that the MWC is finally getting some national respect for the strides made in the conference for the quality of play. Thank you for your first attempt to give the credit that the MWC conference earned coming a long way in the past 5 years. Why it took you six pages to admit that ESPN knows what they are talking about is beyond me.


Yeah, they sure nailed that early ranking of BYU didn't they? :lol: Maybe if they'd given TCU the credit they deserved and left the other two out of the rankings completely, I'd admit the ESPN crew might be worthy of some credit. But no... TCU got slighted and this was supposed to be BYU and Max Hall's year. Hows that working out again? Jahan, the Aggies suck and they couldn't hold the Huskies jockstraps on their best day with the best players they've EVER had. :lol: About the rest of the conference being on par with Utah and BYU... Umm no. Not this year, and I've posted numbers before that show they haven't ever been.... the Pac 10 is, was and continually has been better. You want to question a conference, you better check out the Big 10.... since you're so convinced they're a "real" conference. Stats indicate they've actually gone downhill this decade.... compared to the other BCS conferences, but you're so worked up trying to convince me the MWC is just as good as the Pac 10 that you're barking up the wrong tree with your argument. Perhaps you should check it out... and suggest that the Aggies could play with... oh, Minnesota, or even Michigan this year. Then you might have a valid argument. 8) Yeah, I'm a smug *******.... sue me. I guess since thats not an option, hating on the Pac 10 will probably have to do even if it is about as valid as the argument that Utah and BYU deserve more credit than they're getting. :lol:


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## jahan

**** dude Washington blows, the difference is I admit the Aggies suck and I am not in some fantasy world that thinks my team is actually good. Washington would get worked by over half of the MWC teams and even most of the WAC teams. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it is time to come back to reality. 8) 

Now if you work on your reading comprehension skills you would see I have never said the MWC is better than the PAC-10. So do you think the PAC-10 is better than say the SEC, Big 12, Big 10? Where would you rank them? I personally would put them this year at number 4 conference, you maybe could make the argument for 3, but it is a stretch. I would put the MWC at 4 or 5 this year. To me it is obvious the SEC is by far the best conference followed by the BIG-12.


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## orvis1

I guess all the coaches and AP were wrong and you were right. Let this serve as my public apology to you and your greatness. It is easy to be an expert when the games are over and the results are in. If you remember I challenged you to a bet of a fishing trip thinking there was no way TCU would cover and I don't remember you accepting the bet. I on the other hand maned up and admitted I was wrong and gave TCU full credit. I guess it is much easier to be confident and a "expert" after the games are played. Just when I think you say something intelligent (like giving the MWC credit for the improvement in play) you go all river rat on us. This from the guy who thinks Washington could beat all the MWC teams. Should we just have the pac 10 #1 play the pac 10 #2 for the BCS championship? 




I think I will stick to getting my football information from credible sources like ESPN & Fox sports I am guessing I will be with the majority.


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## Riverrat77

orvis1 said:


> I guess all the coaches and AP were wrong and you were right. Let this serve as my public apology to you and your greatness. It is easy to be an expert when the games are over and the results are in.


Hey, we all guess wrong occasionally... thats all we're really doing is guessing and hoping we're right. Nobody is an "expert"... we all look at the same stats, figures or whatever and make our best guess. We all try to pretend we know whats going to happen, but honestly, as proven all over the country this year and every other, anything can happen when its gametime. Nobody in their right mind would have expected the UW upset over USC. Your "majority" obviously didn't expect BYU to bend over for FSU either. You have your opinion and I have mine so I don't think either of us has anything to apologize for. 8)



orvis1 said:


> If you remember I challenged you to a bet of a fishing trip thinking there was no way TCU would cover and I don't remember you accepting the bet. I on the other hand maned up and admitted I was wrong and gave TCU full credit. I guess it is much easier to be confident and a "expert" after the games are played. Just when I think you say something intelligent (like giving the MWC credit for the improvement in play) you go all river rat on us. This from the guy who thinks Washington could beat all the MWC teams. Should we just have the pac 10 #1 play the pac 10 #2 for the BCS championship?


Thank you for misquoting me Orvis.... I do think UW could take anyone in the MWC, EXCEPT for TCU. Am I right?? Well, we won't find out this year. None of the others around here have shown anything that would scare anyone away from playing them... on any day. The Pac 10 isn't the only conference out there producing champions but unlike the MWC, they seldom fail to show up when the country is watching. USC - OSU anyone? Oregon - Utah? Again, what happened last year in the bowl games? Best record of all the conferences? I don't think that happened because they were so weak. You can't erase history, as bad as you'd like to because it doesn't favor your point of view. About the bet on TCU, Orvis, I'm sorry I didn't take that bet, since I was pretty confident that Utah would get taken to the woodshed after watching them play a lot this season. I do remember saying that I hoped TCU would blow out Utah, and that the run game would get shut down for Utah, leaving Jerry Hughes to terrorize Wynn all game. How did the game go again? Man, where is highanddry's train whistle..... TOOT, TOOT, TOOT!!! Seriously though, I don't think the Pac 10 is the only thing out there, but there are far worse conferences who might actually be down on the MWC's level... like the Big 10 although as bad as they seem, I don't think they're even that bad. Unless the MWC can get more than one team a year to step up and play great ball, all they're doing is taking a big step backward every year in their fight to get some recognition. Sorry if you had money on any big BYU or Utah games this year Orvis.... ESPN won't apologize for costing you money but you can probably email Kirk Herbstreit and let him know you're not happy with the experts who are supposed to know better. :wink:


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## orvis1

A *man* puts his money where his mouth is I agreed to step up and do that you declined for whatever your reason is. If you weren't bright enough to sense sarcasm in my last post they do offer courses at the local community college to sharpen your reading skills. Claiming that Washington who won 0 games last year and a mighty 3 games this year could handle Utah and BYU shows me your college football intelligence. If MWC football especially Utah games are so horrible why do you go every couple of weeks? Why do you storm the field with the rest of the Utes? I hate BYU and you don't see me going to the Y games yelling "rise and shout the cougars are out" drinking my caffeine free diet coke then coming on forums saying how bad BYU sucks. That is called being a hypocrite look it up if that is to big a word for you.

Arguing with River rat is the definition of insanity I keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Riley you seem like a good guy but on this subject I just shake my head at your beliefs. I am done with this thread.


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## stablebuck

what's the spread on the AF/BYU game? I'll make a friendly wager with any takers...
BYU is favored by 7.5 points...I am willing to stand behind saying that BYU will not cover 7.5 points...anyone...Bueller...anyone?


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## proutdoors

stablebuck said:


> what's the spread on the AF/BYU game? I'll make a friendly wager with any takers...
> BYU is favored by 7.5 points...I am willing to stand behind saying that BYU will not cover 7.5 points...anyone...Bueller...anyone?


I'll take it! What are we wagering?


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## stablebuck

only one brave soul...the funny thing is that we are both betting with our emotions on this one (#1 rule of what NOT to do when betting!)...since I am an AF alumni and Pro loves him some Ty Detmer/Steve Young!  
...let's say a half dozen GoldTip ProHunter 5575s...???


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## Riverrat77

orvis1 said:


> A *man* puts his money where his mouth is I agreed to step up and do that you declined for whatever your reason is. If you weren't bright enough to sense sarcasm in my last post they do offer courses at the local community college to sharpen your reading skills. Claiming that Washington who won 0 games last year and a mighty 3 games this year could handle Utah and BYU shows me your college football intelligence. If MWC football especially Utah games are so horrible why do you go every couple of weeks? Why do you storm the field with the rest of the Utes? I hate BYU and you don't see me going to the Y games yelling "rise and shout the cougars are out" drinking my caffeine free diet coke then coming on forums saying how bad BYU sucks. That is called being a hypocrite look it up if that is to big a word for you.
> 
> Arguing with River rat is the definition of insanity I keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Riley you seem like a good guy but on this subject I just shake my head at your beliefs. I am done with this thread.


So, because I disagree with your point of view, I'm not intelligent? Wow... ummm ok. I also have to put money on a game to know what I'm talking about? I didn't have any money on TCU, didn't need to... it doesn't take a genius to see that Utah was going to get swatted around all over the field... especially if you'd watched any Utah ball at all this year. There were sure a lot of folks who thought they'd put up a good fight though (which I personally thought was ridiculous, but whatever).... so much for no football intelligence huh? :roll: If you ever had a chance to go to a Utes game with us, then you'd notice I don't know all the Utah chants, don't know the fight song and I'm just there having a good time with buddies tailgating, tossing a football, eating some good grub and then catching a game (which incidentally was also the reason to run on the field last year). It wasn't about me being a U fan, it was about having a good time....Last I checked, for the fans, thats what its really all about isn't it? Thats some crime here to go watch football with friends even though you're not a die hard fan of that particular team? Sorry Orvis.. thats flat out lame. :roll:


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## Riverrat77

stablebuck said:


> only one brave soul...the funny thing is that we are both betting with our emotions on this one (#1 rule of what NOT to do when betting!)...since I am an AF alumni and Pro loves him some Ty Detmer/Steve Young!
> ...let's say a half dozen GoldTip ProHunter 5575s...???


I really hope for your Falcons that the Y has an off day. 8) It'd kinda make my day if they get out of LES with a win, even if its close. If it was a blowout, I'd have even more reason to celebrate when I head down there at the end of the season. :wink:


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## stablebuck

my logic...BYU beat NM by 6 points...AF beat NM by like 80 points...and they were both home games for the Lobos...so I'm pretty comfortable saying that the Cougs will win by no more than 6 points if they win at all against a AF team that could've very well beat the Utes in Rice-Eccles in a game where they statistically outgained the home team but lost in OT...


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## GaryFish

Won't be close. BYU will cover and then some. 20+ points. Air Force does not match up against BYU - and hasn't for a very long time. The scores of the last 4 years have been:

38-24
31-6
33-14
62-41

Air Force has not beat BYU since Crowton was around. I am not a betting man so I won't bet. But they will cover that 7 point spread.


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## stablebuck

7.5 points!!!

well this is the best secondary that AF has had in probably 7 years...when AF was beating BYU every other year...so defensively I'm confident that BYU will not be able to pass the ball like they want and let's be honest...if they play like they did against NM...you're gonna need a genie lamp to get a 20 point differential in favor of your Cougs...


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## GaryFish

And if they play like they did against Wyoming, Tulane, Colorado State, UNLV, Oklahoma, then they'll blow them away. And if they play like they did against FSU, TCU and New Mexico then they'll lose. More than likely though - considering past history with Air Force, it won't be close.


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## proutdoors

I rarely make wagers based on emotion. I know that BYU matches up VERY well with AF and that is why I am willing to accept your terms. 8)


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## stablebuck

proutdoors said:


> I rarely make wagers based on emotion. I know that BYU matches up VERY well with AF and that is why I am willing to accept your terms. 8)


---internet handshake---


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## HOGAN

i will wtness, both are honorable and it is on. never met unstable buck but know he is good for it.


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## HOGAN

I also think the winner should give the witness 2 arrows in good faith, from their winnings.


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## stablebuck

I'm down with that


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## HOGAN

LETS GO AIR FORCE!! WIN OUT RIGHT!!!


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## Riverrat77

HOGAN said:


> i will wtness, both are honorable and it is on. never met unstable buck but know he is good for it.


They're both good folks... this should be a done deal... pay up Pro.  Just kidding... I think it'll be pretty close, Air Force is playing good ball this year.


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## Huge29

I will take a piece of that action too, you seemed to be inviting more offers since there was only one taker?? However, I want to wager some crap laying around my house, not crap laying around your house. :mrgreen: Maybe some Wal-Mart brand camo boots in size 10 new in box?


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## stablebuck

That's not my size, but there's a DI in Layton


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## proutdoors

*()* -~|- -()/>- -()/- *(())* *OOO* 8)


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## proutdoors

stablebuck, I need those Gold Tips at 28.5". :mrgreen:


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## stablebuck

Sorry, I don't get on here on the weekends usually...
28.5" on the nose???
regular vanes?


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## proutdoors

No vanes, I like them wrapped, so bare shafts cut to 28.5" will be good. 8)


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## stablebuck

ok...you'll have them shortly sir!


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## orvis1

Now that is an honorable man paying his bet off there! :mrgreen:


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