# OIL Changing Species Question



## wbcougster (Mar 12, 2010)

Quick question for those who may know. If I have been applying for moose for X number of years, and now I want to change species, what are my options? What happens to my points if I change to Buffalo? Thanks in advance


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Your moose points are moose points. You have to start out fresh for buffalo. All points are for the specific species you applied for. You cannot change them from one to another.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

OIL points should be OIL points to be used at your discretion....especially since I have 16 moose points and would love to switch to Mountain Goat


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

But WB, You wont loose your moose point either.

When the point system first began in 1993, a guy could apply for ALL spcies ..
I'm still carrying 4 desert big horn point, 2 buffalo pnts, 1 rocky big horn and 1 goat point..

Sure wish when they made us only choose one went with the desert sheep!!!

I almost feel like my 18 moose points are worthless!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I'm down with that Gdog-----I'd have 26 OIAL points right now!!!!!

Seriously, combining OIAL points was presented to the RAC/Board 2006 or 07 ..

Shot down BIGTIME ... guys with only 16 points would be burried even worse!


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

I wish they would atleast let you convert your say moose points to another species.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

mikevanwilder said:


> I wish they would atleast let you convert your say moose points to another species.


That would make the point creep unbearable. Unless you are specifically talking moose only....because of the bastardization of the moose numbers in Utah.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

MadHunter said:


> That would make the point creep unbearable. Unless you are specifically talking moose only....because of the bastardization of the moose numbers in Utah.


I was trying to convey that!


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I have 8 moose points? any advice? start over and go with goats?


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## horn hunter (Oct 30, 2013)

I've heard from someone on the inside that they will be revisiting the OIL point combining topic again in the near future....


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

horn hunter said:


> I've heard from someone on the inside that they will be revisiting the OIL point combining topic again in the near future....


I thought the dwr only talked to you when they were issuing a poaching citation?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Someone on the inside usually refers to jail?-----SS


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## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

I wish they would let you change species and I have broached this subject with members of the WB before. My rationalization was that suppose a person started applying for goats in his/her mid forties, a reasonable expectation to draw this species is 18-20 years, therefor you now have someone that may or may not be capable of enjoying the experience of the hunt as they will be in their mid to late 60's. Why could they not change one time in their life their points from one species to another? Public hunters applying for a public resource.... 

WB answer was people would be up in arms over their points being effected, which to me seems like a lame reason to deny a sportsman. This is the same argument I have received many times on the purchasing of bonus points. As most are aware Utah does not allow residents to purchase bonus points for all species, whereas non-residents can. I have received the same comments from the WB members (along with the "I can't buy points for my son's daughter, aunt, uncle, wife grandparents etc") in regards to that proposition. Again, a lame excuse in my opinion. Everyone in Utah who can legally hunt should have the opportunity to purchase bonus points. It doesn't change the fact that you can only apply for one LE and one OIL. 

Bottom line in my opinion is that a resident should be allowed the opportunity to convert points from one OIL species to another once! All residents should have the OPPORTUNITY to purchase bonus points for all species. But that is what makes this country great many opinions.......


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

utahgolf said:


> I have 8 moose points? any advice? start over and go with goats?


Even starting over now, you'd probably draw a goat tag before your moose tag in UT. Moose odds are BRUTAL (much like the Rocky Mtn Bighorn odds I'm locked into with 12 points).


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

My only hope is that the moose numbers rebound by the time I can actually draw a tag. I moved to Utah a few years back and now have 3 points to my name. It sounds like I should consider trashing those and switching to another species.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> Even starting over now, you'd probably draw a goat tag before your moose tag in UT. Moose odds are BRUTAL (much like the Rocky Mtn Bighorn odds I'm locked into with 12 points).


I have 14. I'm screwed. I'll keep building them though so my 3 y/o can shoot one when he turns 12 with the mentoring program.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> I have 14. I'm screwed. I'll keep building them though so my 3 y/o can shoot one when he turns 12 with the mentoring program.


OHHHH, Mcfy,Mcfly. Not trying to be negitive here, just pointing out HARD facts,

Utahs moose situation and bonus points ....( reidents only)

Currantly there are 2,184 hunters at 14 or more moose bounus points.

This year , there were 35 TOTAL bonus moose permits avalible in the draw.

This means, at the currant rate, 60+ years to clear out the '14' point
guys...

Even if you apply all of Utahs 97 bull moose permits to those at 14+
points EVERY SINGLE YEAR, everyone wonldn't draw for 20+ years ..
( ^^ This would never happen ^^^ )

Now Mcfly, There is still a chance you could pull a tag in the regular
draw, But it is 'winning the lottery' , as far a permits go.

Realiticly, the way it is now, a guy with 14 moose points , likely
wont draw a moose tag in Utah for the next 30 years........


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> .........
> Currantly there are 2,184 hunters at 14 or more moose bounus points.
> 
> This year , there were 35 TOTAL bonus moose permits avalible in the draw.
> ...


And people still don't think we need to revise or eliminate the point system (aka Ponzi Scheme)? 
Can anybody tell me what incentive a young hunter has to enter the draw system? :crazy:

This thing is just as bad as social security if not worse.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> That would make the point creep unbearable.


....and its not already:shock:



martymcfly73 said:


> I have 14. I'm screwed. I'll keep building them though so my 3 y/o can shoot one when he turns 12 with the mentoring program.


16 points...basically same scenario...hopefully I'm still alive when my kid shoots my moose!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Heres the thing Madhunter, Nothing else is better .....

Even if we did away with the point sytem, flat out even draw, No points,
There were 17,491 moose applicants in 2013-------97 moose permits !!!!
180 + years to clear out---YES, NO POINT SYSTEM, ONE HUNDERED EIGHTY:!::!:
And all you do is pennalize the guys withe years invested in points!
More than likely never draw a permit IN YOUR LIFE.:!:.
And, IMHO, The guys that have invested in OIAL points SHOULD have a better chance at drawing.

OR, We could go Old Timers route------Go to a free market.:shock:.
Eliminate the draw, let permits go to the highest bidder..:shock:..-------NOT:!:

Can you imagine what these permits would sell for????
The general public would be COMPLETELY locked out of ANY oppertunity.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I get what your saying goofy. That still does not help any new recruits into the sport. 
You are alienating the potential massive thousands of future hunters for the sake of 
a few thousand now.

This is the perfect example of "unintended consequences" gone mad on steroids for 
the offspring of Godzilla. This is asking our children and grandchildren (who will never 
draw a tag) to put money into the system so you and I "can" draw a tag.

Folks talk about how much damage the auction tags are causing to hunting opportunity 
but they fail to see that the public draw system is even worse. The devil is always in 
the details and no body wants to look at the details. Never forget that the greatest 
trick the devil pulled off was convincing the world he didn't exist. -()/>-


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

One more thought, and ' on topic' ..

Can you imagine what would happen the the other OIAL draw
odds if they alowed a 'one time change' in OIAL points right now.:shock:.:!:.

The rocky mountain goat permit odds would shoot to astonomic numbers.:!:.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> I get what your saying goofy. That still does not help any new recruits into the sport.
> You are alienating the potential massive thousands of future hunters for the sake of
> a few thousand now.
> 
> ...


I Agree


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## Wind In His Hair (Dec 31, 2009)

At this point, I wish the DWR would let me trade points for a lifetime license instead.


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> One more thought, and ' on topic' ..
> 
> Can you imagine what would happen the the other OIAL draw
> odds if they alowed a 'one time change' in OIAL points right now.:shock:.:!:.
> ...


Well at least it seems like we can grow goats in this state at the moment. :smile:. It is a lousy problem for sure especially coming from this guy with 3 sheep points and counting.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

MadHunter said:


> And people still don't think we need to revise or eliminate the point system (aka Ponzi Scheme)?
> Can anybody tell me what incentive a young hunter has to enter the draw system? :crazy:


These types of quotes always puzzle me.

What are the odds of a youngster drawing an OIL tag now with the current system? Quite low, but (slightly) incrementally better over time via point accumulation.

What would the odds be for a youngster drawing an OIL tag if the system was a pure draw. Quite low, period.

Whats the difference?

Heck, with the mentor program, as long as Grandpa doesn't kick the bucket, he can basically use Gpa's points. Dang, I wish I was 14 again.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Catherder said:


> Whats the difference?
> 
> Heck, with the mentor program, as long as Grandpa doesn't kick the bucket, he can basically use Gpa's points.


As can every other kid in the state including his siblings and cousins who are now his worst competitors! So, what _is_ the difference?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Catherder said:


> These types of quotes always puzzle me.
> 
> What are the odds of a youngster drawing an OIL tag now with the current system? Quite low, but (slightly) incrementally better over time via point accumulation. There is something called point creep that prevents your draw chances of increasing. You need to have more tags available than hunters with max points to flush the line out.
> 
> ...


To me it's a thing called return on investment that your are probably missing. We are different 
people and think differently. But if we set that aside and go just on odds. A new hunter (kid or adult), 
has a better chance at drawing on a straight draw based on pure luck. The point systems we now 
have guarantees 50% of the tags to the highest point holders. The other 50% are a general draw 
with whatever point you have operating as a preference point. The draw still favors the person 
with the higher amount of points. That is like buying a lottery ticket knowing 5 of the 6 
numbers already and telling the guy that doesn't know any of the numbers that it's fair.

Granted you don't have to buy a ticket. You can always opt out and not play the tag lottery.
I have taught my kids to save money and just buy a landowner tag it will end up being cheaper
in the long run because you will at least get something for your money.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Catherder said:


> These types of quotes always puzzle me.
> 
> What are the odds of a youngster drawing an OIL tag now with the current system? Quite low, but (slightly) incrementally better over time via point accumulation.


Not really...the bottleneck is getting so bad that realistically kids just starting out collecting points may never draw (not including grandpa's tag)....after putting in a lifetime of application fees. I know it's individual choice, but the DWR is collecting fee's on points that the individual may never even have a chance in cashing in and not due to bad luck.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Madhunter, my wife and I have been chasing a Utah moose tag
for the best part of 25 YEARS now! Yes a quarter century, 34 combine points!

You tell me, WHY should we have to fall back to a level playing field ?
AND NEVER DRAW ? 

Should our 34 years worth of points be ignored ? Seriuosly .......
( this dose not even count the years I applied for moose before the point system )


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

MadHunter said:


> To me it's a thing called return on investment that your are probably missing. We are different
> people and think differently. But if we set that aside and go just on odds. A new hunter (kid or adult),
> has a better chance at drawing on a straight draw based on pure luck. The point systems we now
> have guarantees 50% of the tags to the highest point holders. The other 50% are a general draw
> ...


I'm well aware of how the draw works and of point creep. However, on the "pure luck" tags, we increase our odds incrementally with each point we obtain, so each year a youth puts in, his draw odds go up, even if he/she is decades away from a bonus tag. I have no problem with this. (and my OIL points for the hunt I want are probably more discouraging than many of you) With respect to the "entitlement mentality", I hear what you are saying, but folks with that mentality have bought that at a price. They have been *losers *for quite a while. Admitting you are a "loser" takes the edge off the "entitlement" a bit, don't you think?

The bottom line is that there is no magical way to distribute a very low number of OIL and premium tags in the face of very high demand that makes everyone happy. I do think our current system is about as "fair" as we can get, faced with the above reality.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

How can any youth EXPECT to draw a OIL tag in their lifetime? 

They can't. No one can. It is not, or should not, be an expectation. For anyone. OIL tags are Once in a Lifetime, beyond the ordinary, truly a unique, bonus kind of experience. If a person really wants to kill a moose, save your money and go to Alaska and do it. If your list of life accomplishments can never be complete without killing a moose, then there are certainly other ways to do it, than drawing a Utah Moose tag. And really, there is NO biological reason we should be killing ANY moose in Utah. It is purely for sport. Nothing more. So if it really is THAT important to you, then do what it takes and buy a moose hunt.

Also - I absolutely HATE the bonus/preference point system. In any lottery or raffle or anything, just because you didn't pick the right number last week, should you have any better odds of picking it this week. Like rolling a dice - just because you roll a 4 nine times in a row, does not change the odds of rolling one on your next roll. Each roll is independent. And so should the big game draw. Buying lottery tickets for 50 years, makes you no more deserving of winning Megabucks than they first time buyer. But then again, that is how gambling suckers people - the thought that enough losses means they HAVE or DESERVE to win. Preference/bonus points do nothing more than feed off the gambler's emotional sense of entitlement.

Sorry. Rant over.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> How can any youth EXPECT to draw a OIL tag in their lifetime?


Nevermind draw odds or demand....but, doesn't OIL or once-in-a-lifetime imply that anyone--youth or not--should expect to draw at least once in their life? Just sayin'...


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

It means you have a chance. But not expect.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> How can any youth EXPECT to draw a OIL tag in their lifetime?
> .


Here how, be smart..;-)..
My boy that is in high school now was VERY wise when he started into points ..

We looked at what was reatistic, he went with Rocky mountain goats ...
5 points toward goats now and he's young, plus increasing goat permits !

He will surely draw his rocky mountain goat OIAL permit......


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## mgdhunter (Nov 21, 2010)

I have 18 points for Moose, and it is discouraging. But, as with all gambling, you take a chance at the prize. We would all like to manipulate the system to benefit us, but in the long run, it will be discouraging to many others. What's the best idea? Who knows, and will ever know?? 

Just my .02!!


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

im glad they dont. because then you would have to many people jumping.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I still don't understand how we have permits which take more than a lifetime to draw, yet we give 1/2 of those permits to a small group who happened to be eligible to apply at the arbitrary point in time when the point system was started.......

Point systems and "Bonus Tags" only work when the wait allows all to move through the system within a lifetime (say 40 years).

As for moose, I see a rebound in areas I'm familiar with, so hopefully we'll see an increase in permits within the next few years as the young bulls start meeting the age objectives.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

2 years ago my wife had 6 people ahead of her in the pts pool for her unit of choice on Mt Goats. I haven't looked at this years odds but she's getting close! I know she would have been guaranteed a tag on the Beaver but I don't know anything about that unit.

Going to be a great hunt when she does draw.


-DallanC


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Here's your moose tag....

_2014 Utah Statewide Moose Conservation Permit
Permit provided by the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife

This is the premier Shira's Moose tag in the West! In 2011, this tag produced a 184-inch new world record muzzleloader moose. Winning bidder is responsible for the additional payment of the appropriate resident or non-resident license fee for this species. 100% of all proceeds from this permit goes to moose research and enhancement study conducted by Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and SFW._


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> One more thought, and ' on topic' ..
> 
> The rocky mountain goat permit odds would shoot to astonomic numbers.:!:.


 While the others would go down!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

It's a gamble when you start building your bonus points. I switched to Mountain Goats about 10 years ago when I could see my 5 Sheep points was never gonna guarentee me a tag. I just can't see how others now feel they should be able to switch up and change because they made a poor decision in the beginning. As far as Utahs draw system, I really believe it's the best option out there. Every single person that enters the draw has a chance, while still rewarding those those stick with it. I would not mind seeing them allow us to apply for more than one species.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Are Mustangs and Jackalopes OIL? I just want to chase something new!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You can get a Dinosaur License in Vernal, have at it!


-DallanC


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

As for the issue between changing this system, of there was a system people could agree on that would put new hunters on target for oil tags, the point system could be phased out over time. If, at the start date, no more people could start accumulating points toward the current system that hadn't done so prior to the cut off date, the older invested generation could continue receiving X% ( the advantageous and temporarily better numeral) of the quota while the new system participants begin with Y% of quotas. This could transfer over to a new system relatively painlessly, if in addition there were other buy outs with lesser points such as preference deer or le. While the above may not be an exact model, something of similar could be worked out, depending in public reception of it and the money involved on the agency side. An essential phasing into a new system without screwing over the heavily invested.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> I would not mind seeing them allow us to apply for more than one species.


 That goes for Limited Entry as well! With only a couple of exceptions regarding sheep, Utah is the only state in the west (maybe the nation) that restricts residents to an "either/or" application and draw. Every other state allows residents to hunt any and every species they may happen to draw. I know the odds for any individual species may go up, but the overall odds would remain about the same. And think of the additional revenue the DWR would have from the application fees.

But if that doesn't happen, and we still are allowed to draw only one LE or OIL tag, I would like to see them change the order of the draw and draw the OIL tags first. Right now, you're your own worst enemy whether you want that OIL tag which you can draw only once or the LE which you may draw more than once. I've drawn 4 archery antelope tags since 2000, all while applying for a moose tag. Who knows how many chances I may have missed for the moose tag because I drew the antelope tag first! Yes, I know, I didn't have to apply for the antelope tag, but that's the sore spot. Utah is the only state that requires me to make the choice.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that if they opened up the draw for residents to every animal you would have another bottle neck the way that Utah does it by not requiring payment up front. When it only cost you $10 per application a lot of hunters will put in for everything knowing that the odds of them drawing one tag are quite slim. But if they had to put down a couple thousand dollars then that would change. Even now with non residents being able to put in for every species with only a application fee would take a lot of them out of the draw system if they had to put the money up front. It wouldn't take long for a non residents tags to add up to $5000 or more.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

elkfromabove said:


> But if that doesn't happen, and we still are allowed to draw only one LE or OIL tag, I would like to see them change the order of the draw and draw the OIL tags first. Right now, you're your own worst enemy whether you want that OIL tag which you can draw only once or the LE which you may draw more than once.


Yes on this! To me, it is a head scratcher that it isn't this way already.

As for applying for multiple OIL tags at once, wouldn't that notably increase the OIL draw odds and point creep? Isn't that what guys are complaining about already? Why worsen what are already tough odds.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I am confused.

Goofy your arguments against a flat draw and YOU losing points are the exact opposite of the arguments you made in the single point deer thread. You said the problem with lifetime licenses is that they are stopping a single point system. And that those of us that hunt deer and put in for LE, well our points we saved for le areas don't matter. Losing your moose points for your mentoring program is bad though?

I don't get it. If others make sacrifices don't you? Throw away your points, lets go to a flat draw!!!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> I am confused.
> 
> Goofy your arguments against a flat draw and YOU losing points are the exact opposite of the arguments you made in the single point deer thread. You said the problem with lifetime licenses is that they are stopping a single point system. And that those of us that hunt deer and put in for LE, well our points we saved for le areas don't matter. Losing your moose points for your mentoring program is bad though?
> 
> I don't get it. If others make sacrifices don't you? Throw away your points, lets go to a flat draw!!!


No,No,No-------------Go back and read it again.

I said the lifetime liceness are one of the issues holding up intragrading
the PP and BB for deer into a single point sydtem,,( all into LE & BBs).

absolutly, Not the oppisite.

What would happen most likely is PP and BB would be added together
for each hunter, That would be their new number of deer points....


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

elk,
I do agree that I think we should be able to apply for all the species. However that is not how all the other states do it. For example look at Idaho. If you apply for the OIL species, sheep, goat, moose. You are not able to apply for deer, elk or lopes, and vise versa. 

One thing that Utah does that I do like is the Expo tags. Allows me to apply for every single species on multiple units. In fact I am able to apply for multiple weapons on some units. Really a good deal if you take the time to head up and apply.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Oh no you didn't!-O|o--O|o-


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I'll 2nd post #51..:!:..

I like it too..:grin:..


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Big surprise from Mr I'm entitled to an OIAL tag because I've been putting in for 34 years.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> Big surprise from Mr I'm entitled to an OIAL tag because I've been putting in for 34 years.


Some real smart cookie's around here....

Go back and READ through the posts Mcfly...

Feel free to "quote" ....

Never said " I " was " entitled " .....

Never said I have been putting in for 34 years .....

Now Mcfly, you can take your "Smarty" BS, and go away......


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I guess you're too smart for sarcasm and by smart I mean, well you know...


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> One thing that Utah does that I do like is the Expo tags. Allows me to apply for every single species on multiple units. In fact I am able to apply for multiple weapons on some units. Really a good deal if you take the time to head up and apply.


yeah...really a good deal! You can spend a bunch of money that will go directly into the pockets of the SFW bigwigs for the very minute chance of drawing a tag. And, what's better? You can sit up at some stupid expo and listen to a bunch of chest-thumping wingnuts tell you about their F150 4x4 and awesome 32 point muley sticker and yosemite sam mudflaps as they show off their taxidermy!

sorry, i can do all that by applying for a sportsmen tag and sit home and watch hunting shows on the outdoor channel!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

w2u,
You don't even have to go into the Expo if thats not your thing. But regardless its a great oppurtunity to apply for all the species on mulitple units. The cost to apply is actually less than the sportsman tag. Regarless of who is running it SFW, MDF, RMEF, SCI, UDWR, it doesn't mean its less of an oppurtunity. Sounds kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face. 

Maybe your are just hanging with the wrong people at the Expo? I know the people I chat with dont talk much about the trucks or mudflaps, not sure a 32 point buck has ever come up? Maybe changing the crowd you hang with would help if these topics bother you? But hey if setting at home and watching the outdoor channel is more your thing, then by all means do what floats your boat.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

So what your saying is there is a chance?? I'm in! 

I reckon if we were allowed to switch up our points it would very slowly start to clear up the bottle neck...sure the goat and sheep odds would sky rocket but moose and bison odds would probably moderate a bit...that would move some people through and then guys would get impatient with the sheep and goat and start settling for moose and bison...moving very slowly a few more people through the system simply by offering more options to use their points on...


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> elk,
> I do agree that I think we should be able to apply for all the species. However that is not how all the other states do it. For example look at Idaho. If you apply for the OIL species, sheep, goat, moose. You are not able to apply for deer, elk or lopes, and vise versa.
> 
> One thing that Utah does that I do like is the Expo tags. Allows me to apply for every single species on multiple units. In fact I am able to apply for multiple weapons on some units. Really a good deal if you take the time to head up and apply.


 My bad! It's actually been a while since I checked ALL the states and I know they probably change things as much as we do now. It's hard to keep up, especially if a person doesn't hunt other states, which I don't.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> w2u,
> ........ it doesn't mean its less of an oppurtunity. Sounds kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face.........


Feeding the pockets of big organizations with the tags that should be available via the public draw is what equates to cutting your nose to spite your face. These "opportunities" are being sold to you at the expense of your natural resources and the opportunities of your posterity to hunt.

I have no quarrel with anyone that wishes to apply and take advantage of the "opportunity", I do it myself. The difference is that I am fully aware of what I am buying into. I don't dilute myself thinking I am doing Utah's wildlife any favors.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

berrysblaster said:


> So what your saying is there is a chance?? I'm in!
> 
> I reckon if we were allowed to switch up our points it would very slowly start to clear up the bottle neck...sure the goat and sheep odds would sky rocket but moose and bison odds would probably moderate a bit...that would move some people through and then guys would get impatient with the sheep and goat and start settling for moose and bison...moving very slowly a few more people through the system simply by offering more options to use their points on...


It would not help the situation one bit. In order to clear the bottleneck you need to have more permits available than there are people with max points. Currently we only have mountain goats increasing in permit numbers.

Because of the physical demand of mountain goat hunts they are not as wildly popular with the older generations. This causes them to have a lower demand than the other OIL tags and so the bottleneck remains or gets worse if you can change your points around.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> Currently we only have mountain goats increasing in permit numbers.


Sorry not true, at least not true everywhere. The unit my wife puts in for got reduced from 3 tags to 2 recently.

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Sorry not true, at least not true everywhere. The unit my wife puts in for got reduced from 3 tags to 2 recently.
> -DallanC


The discussion is about the condition of the state in general. You knew that since you had to clarify.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

For someone like me that has a few bison points and zero in all other OIL species, I like the expo tags. Gives me a couple extra chances. 

I don't know what the answer is, to be honest. Not sure any system will be perfect for the very limited OIL species we have. I just know it sucks that I will likely never get a chance in my lifetime to hunt moose, bison, goat, or sheep. That isn't a fun realization.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^ ABSOFREAK'inLOTLY !!!!! We have a winner !!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Hopefully I'll be a winner the last week of February!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> w2u,
> You don't even have to go into the Expo if thats not your thing.


Maybe not, but you have to go....even if I wanted to go and wanted to apply, the gas alone would cost me more than a sportsmen permit application. And, even worse, my money helps further the cause of the very organizations that are looking to limit my hunting the most! Thanks, but no thanks....

....and I hear some of you guys up north whining about having to travel to provo or ogden for a rac meeting. Imagine having to travel to Richfield so you can apply for an expo tag!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Imagine having to travel to Richfield so you can apply for an expo tag!


Now that would be a DREAM COME TRUE!!! I'd love that!

And really, $150 bucks covers gas, Mcdonlds,,,,, AND, Wait for it---
-
_
_
_
_
_

20, YES TWENTY chance's at LE and OIAL permits on units of your choice!

Heck, It costs more than that these days for a kid to take his date 
out to concert and have dinner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

wyoming2utah said:


> You can sit up at some stupid expo and listen to a bunch of chest-thumping wingnuts tell you about their F150 4x4 and *awesome 32 point muley sticker *and yosemite sam mudflaps as they show off their taxidermy!


Aha!, So that is where those screwy stickers come from!:!::idea: Sorry, Ive always wondered.

RE"I just know it sucks that I will likely never get a chance in my lifetime to hunt moose, bison, goat, or sheep. That isn't a fun realization."

Maybe I'm more of a glass half full guy than I always thought, but at least you have a chance at all of these, and the odds are, in a lifetime, you might actually get one or two.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Mad,
Those tags are as public draw as it gets. Anybody and everybody can apply just have to show up. 

W2U,
I travel to Richfield from Cache Valley plenty (10-15 times a year), I guess its doesn't bother me that much. Then again I've never been one to worry about a tank of gas when it comes to hunting and fun activities. Like I said maybe just not your cup of tea. But still a great oppurtunity to apply for all the tags.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Catherder said:


> RE"I just know it sucks that I will likely never get a chance in my lifetime to hunt moose, bison, goat, or sheep. That isn't a fun realization."
> 
> Maybe I'm more of a glass half full guy than I always thought, but at least you have a chance at all of these, and the odds are, in a lifetime, you might actually get one or two.


I've drawn a Pauns rifle tag at the expo. So my optimism is likly higher than most with those tags. But I know the chances are still against me. But alas, I'll keep putting in!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> Mad,
> Those tags are as public draw as it gets.  Anybody and everybody can apply just have to show up.
> 
> W2U,
> I travel to Richfield from Cache Valley plenty (10-15 times a year), I guess its doesn't bother me that much. Then again I've never been one to worry about a tank of gas when it comes to hunting and fun activities. Like I said maybe just not your cup of tea. But still a great oppurtunity to apply for all the tags.


The devil is in the details isn't it? All of a sudden it's not such a great opportunity for those that are on a budget and live in Kanab. When I apply for a tag via the DWR I don't have to show up anywhere. This draw benefits and/or gives opportunity to those of us that live close by and/or have the resources to travel to the Expo.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

madhunter,
I think you would be surpised it you knew many guys from Kanab go to the expo..


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I don't doubt it. I have friends that come from AZ and CA just for the expo tag draw. For some guys it's just not possible. It's one of the mechanisms that is used to get people INTO the expo. 

"If I have to come up here for the draw validation I might as well stay and check out the darn thing. Hell I'm hungry...gota spend on food. Think I'll have a few beers while I'm here."


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

It is a lot easier for me to justify 200+ bucks driving a long distance to go fishing or hunting...but to drive a long distance just to have a chance at spending a lot more money? I don't think so!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

W2U,
159 miles is not a long distance.....is it? I guess it just depends on how you look at it. I spend 150 in AZ and 150 in ID just to apply for a chance to spend more money too. To each his own, personally I love the chance to apply for all those hunts.

Mad,
I agree on the budget but it all comes down to priorities and personal choices. If you choose not to spend your money on that then its your choice. But the option to drive up and apply is still there, its a public draw open to all. Yes its a little more convient and cheaper for others that live closer but that does not make it any less of a public draw. And to be honest there are more days than not that I would trade living in Kanab over living closer to the draw. In my opinion you're winning my friend!!!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> W2U,
> 159 miles is not a long distance.....is it? I guess it just depends on how you look at it. I spend 150 in AZ and 150 in ID just to apply for a chance to spend more money too. To each his own, personally I love the chance to apply for all those hunts.
> 
> Mad,
> I agree on the budget but it all comes down to priorities and personal choices. If you choose not to spend your money on that then its your choice. But the option to drive up and apply is still there, its a public draw open to all. Yes its a little more convient and cheaper for others that live closer but that does not make it any less of a public draw. And to be honest there are more days than not that I would trade living in Kanab over living closer to the draw.  In my opinion you're winning my friend!!!


I know....I always win! -/|\\-


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

That bird ^^^^^^^ might disturb me more than falling behind in the OIL points pool.....to get back on the original topic.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

W2U, 

Would you feel any differently about it if the expo was held in Richfield each year? If I know you at all, my guess would be a big fat no. That doesn't seen like your cup of tea and the distance really isn't why you don't do it. Am I close or completely off base with that guess? 

I think the expo folks rip the state of Utah off every year. But as long as there are tags to be drawn, I'm going to put in for them.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

TS,
It's the STATE that gives the tags for the Expo. The whole point is to draw people to Salt Lake and generate revenue. The STATE seems to be happy with the result as they continue to extend the contract.


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> my wife and I have been chasing a Utah moose tag
> for the best part of 25 YEARS now! Yes a quarter century, 34 combine points!


Goofy, honest question... not trying to be an A..

If and when you do finally draw a moose tag, how are you going to decide which child to mentor and do you really believe your other kids will not feel hurt? Not even a little? I don't mean mad or upset, I mean hurt inside. Years after you are dead and gone the one child will have a moose head on the wall. A constant reminder that you choice that child over all others for the most valuable hunting experience of a lifetime.

To me the mentor program puts us "old timers" in a bad situation.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

oldTimer said:


> Goofy, honest question... not trying to be an A..
> 
> If and when you do finally draw a moose tag, how are you going to decide which child to mentor and do you really believe your other kids will not feel hurt? Not even a little? I don't mean mad or upset, I mean hurt inside. Years after you are dead and gone the one child will have a moose head on the wall. A constant reminder that you choice that child over all others for the most valuable hunting experience of a lifetime.
> 
> To me the mentor program puts us "old timers" in a bad situation.


 They'll probably have to bid on it!


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

elkfromabove said:


> They'll probably have to bid on it!


I admit, I deserved that... nice jab :grin:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

My wife and I both have moose tags coming ...

2 boys ...

We are looking at the possibility of giving permits to both of them..

more than fair Id say.....8)


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## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

No daughters?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> TS,
> It's the STATE that gives the tags for the Expo. The whole point is to draw people to Salt Lake and generate revenue. The STATE seems to be happy with the result as they continue to extend the contract.


Muley, I'm actually aware the state gives these tags to the expos/conventions. I didn't think they somehow created their own hunts.

However, these organizations make an absolute killing on these shows and I believe very little of that money is returned compared to the benefit they receive. That's what I meant by my statement. But as I said before, I don't make the rules, but if there are tags to be drawn, it might as well be me...right?


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Absolutely


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

oldTimer said:


> I admit, I deserved that... nice jab :grin:


 Thanks. We gotta throw some humor in every once in a while to keep things civil.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

TS30 said:


> Muley, I'm actually aware the state gives these tags to the expos/conventions. I didn't think they somehow created their own hunts.
> 
> However, these organizations make an absolute killing on these shows and I believe very little of that money is returned compared to the benefit they receive. That's what I meant by my statement. But as I said before, I don't make the rules, but if there are tags to be drawn, it might as well be me...right?


Fortunately, there's some negotiation processes in the works for possibly remedying that $5 EXPO tag application fee situation which will happen in 2016 when the EXPO contract comes up again. We'll see how that pans out! Those organizations will still make a killing on the EXPO itself but the Convention tag application fees likely won't be part of that as much as they now are.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Guy's, I could see were ths 'point thing' was going a LOOOOOONG time ago!

I've been point 'banking' on as many spices and in surounding states as possible!

Heck, Got my oldest boy two GREAT antelope tags already by banking
in both Utah and Wyoming----Have a 'bank account" for the youger one to
do the exact same thing with antelope when hes old enough......

I have a plan in place to pull at least 1-2 good tags EVERY year for the next 10-12 years.

These OIAL permits are so increadably hard to come by, anyone not taking
full atvandage of EVERY oppertunity to obtain one, well, IMO, is missing the boat.

And no OldTimer, no daughters.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Hey Goofy - 
you gave McFly with 14 moose points the rundown on what his odds would be drawing the tag (something like 60+ years to clear out the bonus point pool with 14+ points at current tag allocation levels). I want to know how long I can expect to wait for a Rocky Mtn Bighorn tag with 12 points going in this year. I'm prepared to be disappointed...I just want to know. :grin:

B/t/w- I agree with point banking if you want to try and hunt the really good units. Honestly, I think it sucks that hunting is where it's at with few premium tags and loads of applicants, but if you don't work within the system, you will definitely NEVER draw one of those tags. I have points in UT, CO, WY, and MT and once I start pulling tags, there should be about 10-15 years where I can get a premium tag somewhere every 2 or 3 years. That LE muzzleloader elk tag here in UT is first on the list!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

TS30 said:


> W2U,
> 
> Would you feel any differently about it if the expo was held in Richfield each year? If I know you at all, my guess would be a big fat no. That doesn't seen like your cup of tea and the distance really isn't why you don't do it. Am I close or completely off base with that guess?
> 
> I think the expo folks rip the state of Utah off every year. But as long as there are tags to be drawn, I'm going to put in for them.


A few things: 1) If the expo were held in Richfield, I would probably apply for some tags...as much as it would hurt to do so. 2) The big reason i don't drive to SLC every year to the expo is because I have work obligations that don't allow it...with that being said, though, I don't think I could justify spending the money to go up there and apply for tags. 3) I have been to the expo in the past...in fact, I was up there last year for the utah state NASP archery tournament and had free tickets to the expo and spent a couple hours walking around it. I couldn't get out of there soon enough, though, and couldn't stomach the thought of standing in line to pay for tags to go to some of those groups and the people at the booths. It was pretty sickening to me...!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

w2u,
That does sound like a terrible experience. I'm sorry you had to endure such an event. I wish you well in your recovery.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Here's reality. Big game is a scarce commodity that is in more demand each year. To be successful, I have done the following:

Find OTC areas that are enjoyable through hard work and research.
Play the point game as much as you can afford(about 1500 annually for my family)

If you don't like this, find other hobbies because this is what we have to deal with. I hear golf is fun? I will keep playing the game for now, but I admit that I do tire some each year. I wouldn't trade all the LE BS tags in the world for a couple of the OTC spots I have found. Man we are killing some nice Whitetails in Idaho and we only buy one tag each when you can buy two. Opportunity is still out there if you look.---------SS


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> Hey Goofy -
> I want to know how long I can expect to wait for a Rocky Mtn Bighorn tag with 12 points going in this year. I'm prepared to be disappointed...I just want to know. :grin:
> !


There are right about 400 hunters in the Rocky mnt big horn pool 
with 12 plus points...At the current rate----20 years to clear out ..

THE GOOD news, RMB permits are INCREASING !!----

I'm thinking with a little luck, It could be possible for you to draw,
gaurantee'd---14-17 years..


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> There are right about 400 hunters in the Rocky mnt big horn pool
> with 12 plus points...At the current rate----20 years to clear out ..
> 
> THE GOOD news, RMB permits are INCREASING !!----
> ...


Unless they contract the disease like the timp herd and get wiped out. Sad deal. I see they are offering 1 tag for that unit. There's a really nice ram I watch often.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

SS,
That's about a carbon copy of I how approach each year. I'm actually planning on Idaho whitetail this year if I don't draw much. I'm also getting a new pup this spring and I've come to realize a good bird hunting trip is hard to beat and a helluva lot cheaper than big game.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> Unless they contract the disease like the timp herd and get wiped out. Sad deal. I see they are offering 1 tag for that unit. There's a really nice ram I watch often.


Now who's being the negative one?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> There are right about 400 hunters in the Rocky mnt big horn pool
> with 12 plus points...At the current rate----20 years to clear out ..
> 
> THE GOOD news, RMB permits are INCREASING !!----
> ...


Even with that being said. Not all high point holders are putting in for the tag, just buying another point. With more units opening up and more tags given out on each unit, the higher point holders odds are going to get a lot better.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

ridge,
The 400 total number includes everyone, with 12 + points, that applied
for the permit, and just bought RMB points.........

This gives a realistic expectation of the amount of time to draw... 
Those buying points with 12 + are surely panning on applying for the 
permit in the future ....


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> ridge,
> The 400 total number includes everyone, with 12 + points, that applied
> for the permit, and just bought RMB points.........
> 
> ...


Ridge,
Any new tags will help of course, but don't hold your breath on goofy's 14-17 year guaranteed figure! We're currently moving only 12 people off the top with the bonus/guaranteed tags and that's *32 years* for the 400 and with 3600+ applicants fighting for the other 18 tags, you're going to need more than a _little _luck to draw in his amount of time! Sorry!


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Now who's being the negative one?


Unfortunately it's true. Those sheep are sensitive creatures.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> Ridge,
> Any new tags will help of course, but don't hold your breath on goofy's 14-17 year guaranteed figure! We're currently moving only 12 people off the top with the bonus/guaranteed tags and that's *32 years* for the 400 and with 3600+ applicants fighting for the other 18 tags, you're going to need more than a _little _luck to draw in his amount of time! Sorry!


Not correct EFA ,,,

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2013/13_rm_bighorn.pdf

As you will see in my odds link, There were 14 bounus permits and 22 in
the regular draw for RMB permits in 2013 ..... 
This number will grow in 2014....

What I ment by " guaranteed " was, possibly making it into the MAX
point pool in 14-17 years..
And that will happen if the trends we are seeing now,
CONTINUE.......................

I'm useing 65% of the permits going to 12 point plus guys in the coming
years, This works out to exacty 20 years to clear out this group ....

Then, added permits between now and then, IF ALL GO's WELL with thw
RMB herd, I'm giving my SWAG----Of , 14-17 years, into the "guarantee" Bonus point pool.
( SWAG- Scientific,Wild,Ass,Guess ..) Got it EFA?...


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Not correct EFA ,,,
> 
> http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2013/13_rm_bighorn.pdf
> 
> ...


I will admit I used 2012 figures 'cause I didn't find the 2013 figures, but now that you've explained "guaranteed" with the word "possibly", added IF ALL GOES WELL, guessed on the 65%, and thrown in your SWAG, yeh, I get it! Let's hope ridge gets it! But my advice to him still goes; "Don't hold your breath!"


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

One last thing EFA,

It Wasn't ridge wanting to know ...

It was MWscott72.....


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

^^^^^yup, Goofy's right. Ridge had his moment in the sun and has a SWEET trophy ram to prove it. I am just over a decade into my quest for a goat tag. I saw the writing on the wall way back when I started saving points as a NR. I should have a tag coming in ten years or so. For LE, I hope to draw a deer tag in a few years, then have just enough time to build up points for an elk tag for my retirement in 2035. Once I draw my goat tag, I will put in for CWMU moose tags where there is only one tag in the public drawing. Lucky for me, most of my bucket list hunts are OTC. They include:

Coues in AZ
Blacktail in AK
Whitetail in NY(wife's family has a farm)
Black bear with my youngest daughter in CA or ID
Wolf in ID
Pheasants in SD
Roosevelt's in OR


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Touche!


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> One last thing EFA,
> 
> It Wasn't ridge wanting to know ...
> 
> It was MWscott72.....


Thanks for the explanation Goofy (and additions by Ridge, Marty, and EFA...did I miss any?). SO GLAD that the sheep odds aren't as pitiful as moose. There's always the chance, but I think I'd save up for a moose hunt somewhere else rather than hope for the off chance that I'd draw that tag in UT.

Good thing is that my wife also has 12 points for bighorns and 11 for elk, so there will be additional opportunities for good hunts in the future even if I won't be pulling the trigger. I'm a pretty darn good butcher and pack mule! :grin:

I wish I could say the same for my kids, but LE hunts...and especially OIL here in UT, don't look so hot for them. Even the goat odds for those getting in now are getting really bad, and my kids are 4 and 7 years from being able to apply.


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