# I hate this spike BS.



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

You know it's bad enough that there taking 200 spikes off the Monroe and other units every year , but watching the cow slaughters over the edge . I really hope they don't do this cow slaughter feat again it's just rediculous 250 cows plus archery , 200 spikes, 50 big bulls, that's 1/3 of the entire estimated herd. I can't believe it every year they expect 200 spikes to come off the LE units and not expect we can see the bull numbers and quality are dropping. The spike hunt needs to change and the slaughter needs to end. I don't want to hear the opportunity and the DWR BS from the 801 area code folks who come down overrun the southern units because you've ruined yours with development and could care less what or how many are being taken off units you visit once or twice a year. You people have no comment to make. I'm tired of watching nice elk units go further and further to ****.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Can you remind me where you studied wildlife biology?



> A piece of the sky? Shaped like a stop sign? Not again!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I hate this spike BS too....it really sucks that a guy can buy an OTC tag, go hunt with his family, and heaven knows maybe--but not likely--harvest a very tasty animal! What a crappy hunt....it would be so much better if only ten people could hunt the unit so that most of us could sit at home on our couches while the units grow giant bulls and Mossback gets to go out and kill 'em with their high-paying clients! It would be so awesome if our elk units were managed so that a guy could draw a tag every 20-30 years (if lucky), take out his loyal crew of videographers, high-tech. Schwarovski spotters, and revered bugling replicators en masse to kill that Trophy Hunter magazine type bull that can be displayed in Cabelas....

....actually, after nearly puking in my own mouth and thinking it over again, I'll gladly take the spike hunts!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Can you remind me how many times you've done hands on counting and research? And what are you taking , just the word of some more of our great government workers, who are so honest and not money making oriented?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Wyo2 when there's nothing left you'll have nothing to hunt, and you will have lost it to the almighty dollar. And you can draw an LE archery tag plenty of times in your life if you'd get off your couch and put down your rifle and reach for a bow .

As for your not likely harvest... I saw 6 spikes and know of 4 others taken within 5 miles of each other . Maybe you don't hunt hard enough if your not getting a spike.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

WOW! So.... how do you feel about that? -Ov-


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> The spike hunt needs to change and the slaughter needs to end. I don't want to hear the opportunity and the DWR BS from the 801 area code folks who come down overrun the southern units because you've ruined yours with development and could care less what or how many are being taken off units you visit once or twice a year. You people have no comment to make. I'm tired of watching nice elk units go further and further to ****.


Maybe if you 435 boys got to school once in a while for a civics class or two, you'd know that public land belongs to all of us.

I'm just teasing you DEER but seriously, chill out a little bit. Contact the biologist in the area and talk to him about it if you are really that concerned. If he's on your side, take it to a RAC. Or are you the one that would rather sit on his couch?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Wow I has no idea the Monroe had 100% success on every hunt. Those are some stone cold bow hunters from the 435.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Dodger said:


> Maybe if you 435 boys got to school once in a while for a civics class or two, you'd know that public land belongs to all of us.
> 
> I'm just teasing you DEER but seriously, chill out a little bit. Contact the biologist in the area and talk to him about it if you are really that concerned. If he's on your side, take it to a RAC. Or are you the one that would rather sit on his couch?


Something tells me the biologist had his # as chicken little in his phone and won't answer if he calls. We go through this every year.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> Something tells me the biologist had his # as chicken little in his phone and won't answer if he calls. We go through this every year.


Yeah...and every year all the elk are killed and there aren't any left!


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

IMO it is the spike hunting in the LE units that helps to maintain a healthy herd population in the first place. Half of the spikes don't make it through their first year and removing some of them reduces pressure on the wintering grounds. It also allows for hunting by the general population which is a bonus on many levels. 

I would like to hear some of the Pros vs Cons of what others think. Overall I think the spike hunt is a good thing even though I have never participated in it.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

The biologist in my area.... And I'll keep his name private to not throw him under the bus. But I have talked to him. And many probably know who I'm talking of. But I talked to him quite a while asked the questions, he was a game warden at the time trying to move up to the biologist position. When I asked about the counting he told me that once he was told by those over him the numbers he came up with were not good enough and to go get some better numbers, this is why I don't be believe in the accuracy of their numbers I believe in a money making objective.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Wyo2 when there's nothing left you'll have nothing to hunt, and you will have lost it to the almighty dollar. And you can draw an LE archery tag plenty of times in your life if you'd get off your couch and put down your rifle and reach for a bow .
> 
> As for your not likely harvest... I saw 6 spikes and know of 4 others taken within 5 miles of each other . Maybe you don't hunt hard enough if your not getting a spike.


Yup...it's all about the dollar. Those biologists know darn well that the more spike tags they can sell, the more money they will earn to take home to their families!

Also, just so you know, I purchase an archery spike tag every year, and I drew a big bull tag 7 years ago on the Boulder with my bow....and am now putting in again with my bow. It looks like it will take me another 6-7 years, at least, to draw a bow tag on the Boulder again. What a joke....15 years between tags! With a bow?

1-I, have you ever looked at the hunting success rates for spike hunts? They are the least successful hunts in the state. Honestly, you do yourself a disservice with all of your ignorance on these things...but, you do make things interesting!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Hey wyo2 I keep the forum busy by being an opposition, that's half my motive behind these posts, my threads always go for pages.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Hey wyo2 I keep the forum busy by being an opposition, that's half my motive behind these posts, my threads always go for pages.


Yep....definitely keep things interesting! I love these kinds of threads...there is nothing like a good ol' fashion debate...:smile:


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

That sucks that all the 801 guys are killing all your elk, and what the 801 guys don't kill the eagles and hawks are killing the rest. Yep, won't be long now till the elk are extinct from the Monroe. 

Why do you care so much anyway? You'll maybe only get to hunt big bulls on your precious Monroe unit once, maybe twice in your life, if you're extremely lucky. And judging by your posts, I'm guessing you're a young guy with not very many bonus points. At the rate the point creep keeps going, you may never get a chance to hunt Monroe or you will be 60 years old when you finally do draw. Sucks to be you.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> my threads always go for pages.


No doubt about that and sometimes there is only one author.


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## Igottabigone (Oct 4, 2007)

1-I, Where did you see those spikes? I still haven't filled my tag yet. Thanks in advance.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I have a better idea. Keep all the spike hunts. And open a season on eagles and hawks. That should help the herd a ton! Seriously though, success rates for spike are maybe 25% statewide and I think that is generous. So maybe that 25% is all on the Monroe? Either that or there are 3 spikes in that area.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Statewide the success rate for the any weapon hunts is less than 15%. For the muzzleloader hunts it is around 8% and for the archery hunts it is around 6%....the spike hunt has proven to be a very difficult hunt for most people! This is one reason it is such a great hunt--low success rate and high opportunity! You can give a crap load of tags out and not affect your herds very much!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Hey wyo2 I keep the forum busy by being an opposition, that's half my motive behind these posts, my threads always go for pages.


I called you out on this a long time ago. You probably could care less about spikes, bulls, or any other animal.....you get your jollies from stirring crap. You're pretty good at it, but realize that you are amongst people who get their jollies from hunting. Hence the reason so many think you are full of it.....myself included.-------SS


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## BYUHunter (Oct 7, 2013)

I am not sure which is more flawed.... your usage of the English language, or your biology. Hate to make a negative first post, but your tantrum was so over the top that I could no longer stifle myself as a lurker.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Okay BYUhunter how do you explain the conversation I had with the biologist I talked to? And no I'm not so much upset about the spikes as I am the cows there killing. There excuse was to kill cows wintering on the Dutton from Monroe. Well about 10-15 cows came out of poverty Saturday and Sunday? Why is poverty open for cow hunting when there not even close to their objective on the unit? The cows on poverty aren't going to scale the mountain again and travel 50 miles south at this point to go to the dutton from poverty so why the cow slaughter there? The spike hunts frustrate me slightly because the 20 years isn't even worth the wait anymore bull quality has slipped a lot on it and many other units. I'm not against spike hunting but it would be nice to maybe separate units into 2 groups half and half and open them to spike hunting every other year rather than every year. I'm not looking to kill GS elk hunting, it would just be nice to see some modifications . That or take the **** rifle hunt out of the rut and stop the 100% rifle LE success rates.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Okay BYUhunter how do you explain the conversation I had with the biologist I talked to? And no I'm not so much upset about the spikes as I am the cows there killing. There excuse was to kill cows wintering on the Dutton from Monroe. Well about 10-15 cows came out of poverty Saturday and Sunday? Why is poverty open for cow hunting when there not even close to their objective on the unit? The cows on poverty aren't going to scale the mountain again and travel 50 miles south at this point to go to the dutton from poverty so why the cow slaughter there? The spike hunts frustrate me slightly because the 20 years isn't even worth the wait anymore bull quality has slipped a lot on it and many other units. I'm not against spike hunting but it would be nice to maybe separate units into 2 groups half and half and open them to spike hunting every other year rather than every year. I'm not looking to kill GS elk hunting, it would just be nice to see some modifications . That or take the **** rifle hunt out of the rut and stop the 100% rifle LE success rates.


You should take up golf......it's way less complicated and frustrating.-----SS


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Hey wyo2 I keep the forum busy by being an opposition, that's half my motive behind these posts, my threads always go for pages.


So this is your entertainment in 435 land?


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## papaderf (Aug 24, 2013)

hate too even say anything because dumb sh$t comes out of peoples mouth but we seen two elk and yes no spikes but was with my son and grandson . Priceless.... landowners suck.we try to keep the youth yeh keep the spike hunt just so we can have our time with the family.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Here is your big chance http://statejobspostings.utah.gov/wildlife-biologist-ii/job/4128635


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

What I really want to know, is where all the super rich DWR biologists are hiding.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

The biologist I talked to as I said was a game warden at the time, and was getting promoted to a better paying position as a biologist , and although they didn't come right out and say it. He said obviously you don't make the person above you. As for the spike hunt I don't want to see it gone the general elk hunt is a great thing. But I think dividing them inn to halves and run them each every other year.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

This us almost as good as the one eyed deer thread. That was/ is legendary.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I don't want to hear the opportunity and the DWR BS from the 801 area code folks who come down overrun the southern units because you've ruined yours with development and could care less what or how many are being taken off units you visit once or twice a year. You people have no comment to make. I'm tired of watching nice elk units go further and further to ****.


I hunt the 801, where I also live, and my unit seems to be perfectly fine.....weird.-O,-

Last time I checked, we all have equal say in what happens in our state. You have no more ownership in "your" unit than I do. I won't profess to understand more than, or even half as much as you do about "your" elk in "your" unit, but I'm pretty sure if you cut out all the funds from all of the jerk 801 hunters the results across the board might not be what you hope for.

And let's put things in perspective a bit. Just because you watched a few cows and spikes get whacked doesn't lead me to the conclusion that those were the last living elk on the unit, as you seem to have come to this erroneous conclusion.

If you can provide a more compelling biological argument than the DWR's justification for the tags(aside from what you saw in the back of a few pickups), I would wholeheartedly support your call for tag cuts on any unit.

Enjoy your hunts this year, if you do hunt.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

Hmm, what was this thread about again? Someone needs to count how many posts this jack had on the days he was "out hunting"....


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> This us almost as good as the one eyed deer thread. That was/ is legendary.


I missed that one...

I was starting to think Spike Elk were like the moon landing; everyone talks about them but they don't exists; they're just a way for the government to take our money... (insert sarcastic font here)
That is until my neighbor got one last year on the last day in the last few min of the hunt. It's better to be rich than stupid and better to be lucky than good...

I think I'm using ... too much... I'm not even sure if I know what it means...
Maybe if I put ...!!! I still don't know what it means but I'm excited about it (more sarcastic font required)

On a serious note; Is not the goal of the spike tags to increase the number of big bulls? It makes sense to me, less competition (and they do compete) so they get bigger.
I think our dear herd is a good example; my dad tells story's of all these big deer he's seen / taken over his life. I've been hunting 20+ years and I've seen a 4 point once maybe twice. two points are all there seems to be anymore. Iv'e wondered if we managed the deer like the elk if that would help produce bigger bucks in some areas. Just my uninformed opinion.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

BYUHunter said:


> I am not sure which is more flawed.... your usage of the English language, or your biology. Hate to make a negative first post, but your tantrum was so over the top that I could no longer stifle myself as a lurker.


Welcome to the forum and please meet one eye, one of the most senior members of the forum. :welcome:


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

What's with all the disparaging remarks about 435 v 801? I don't get it.....










I'm going to blame those in the 970 area code. Or maybe even the 775! Wow.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The over harvasting of spikes on Monroe was actualy an issue at the RAC meeting.

Will likey be an issue again this year.. And brought to the wild life board.

IMO ,spike hunting is a probblem on units like Monroe, Pahvant, Nebo, Stansburry,,,
Needs to be changed.........

And yes, I know (int's) JL.....very well...8)..
I Have had this same discustion with him.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

First whoever said getting rid of spikes results in bigger bulls, no. There are smaller buck deer because a lot get killed as spikes and two points and there are a lot of tags. It's not because the smaller bucks are preventing others from getting bigger.

We'll everyone, if you don't believe the overwhelming comment at the RAC meeting isn't that the Monroe unit is being hurt by the spike hunt, you are wrong. It was a huge issue, especially for the Monroe unit. The Pavhant,Beaver, and Monroe since they opened them up have had a large decline on the amount of bulls in many areas of the units, and the size. Now as I said I am not against the spike hunt, it provides fun and good opportunities, so I don't want to see it go. 

Here's what I think would help: 

-There are 22 spike units in the state right now, hunt 11 of them every other year, including archery season. This would allow a 1 year lay off period for all units allowing more young bulls to make it through, but still keep the GS elk hunting open to whoever wants to participate.

-Only allow spike bulls to be killed during archery season on units under objective.

-Sale unlimited spike tags GS and Muzz tags while keeping Any Bull tags and units at the current state.


As I said I'm not for getting rid of the GS elk hunt, but it needs to be modified. Doing as I said keeps things open, and I do understand that creates some crowding, but we did it once before the whole state opened up to spike hunting back when only certain units were open so it's been dealt with before. If you want the opportunity that doesn't take it away, it just modify's it. 

And honestly I think that is the best option, because there is quite a bit of opposing support that many units, especially Monroe have been hurt by the GS spike plans, and something within the next year or two will change. Now it can be chosen to loose some units all together or modify the current GS elk hunt so it isn't as hard hitting on certain units year after year. I think you can fight me tell your blue in the face, but you all know that much of public opinion is that they would rather not have the spike hunt on many units it takes place on, and something will change, so is that a valid choice?


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

No doubt that unlimited spike hunting on Utah's premier trophy units is going to destroy them. I recognize it as mismanagement but don't really care. IMO the fact we have so many trophy elk units is mismanagement in itself. 20+ yrs of waiting to hunt is absolutely asinine. The Monroe elk herd is tanking and there is nothing to do about it. Much of the policy to slaughter that herd has to do with what land managers want not hunters. Monroe is about to undergo a major aspen regeneration effort and foresters see lots of elk as a problem.

Some of the best things about the Monroe unit lead to its herds demise. Every Tom Dick and Harry in Sevier county head up the mtn after work to take a ride putting 10X the pressure then it should have. I'd be willing to bet the total hunter hrs put on Monroe rival any unit in the state. 

Its like this. Unless you live under a rock you've heard of the Monroe. As a result it gets more than its fair share of (801)'s to make the drive down to hunt it. A whole bunch of (435)'s know this so they may go to their lesser known haunts. But when they don't tag out on their opening weak or what not they all take a drive up on Monroe after work or on weak end. For this reason IMO Monroe should be LE for all big game species. For this reason I support option 2. For this reason I view statewide or even regional units as virtually unlimited tags for units like Monroe.

Predation weather roads or selenium. It doesn't matter wildlife is a limited resource and in today's day and age unlimited OTC tags of any nature are irresponsible at best.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I wrote this last year in response to 1-I's doom and gloom posts about the Monroe elk....I am posting it again because the same concept still applies!

Instead of looking at things with so much emotional rhetoric, 1-I, how about looking at things from a mathematical viewpoint?

If the Monroe has about 1400 elk, and if the herd is at about 40 bulls/100 cows, then that would mean that the herd is comprised of about 980 cows and 420 bulls...if the unit has(interestingly, the number of spikes killed has actually gone down each year the hunt has been opened up on Monroe) the same number of bulls are killed as last year (the actual number should be lower because fewer big bull tags were issued), then 180 bulls will be killed leaving the herd with 240 bulls. Sounds like a lot, right? Well, not really once you look at the calves that will be recruited back into the herd...if 980 cows result in 490 calves being recruited and half those calves are bulls, we still bring in 245 more bulls into the herd! That also means the herd can still handle about 65 bulls being killed by predators, autos, disease, etc. before the number of bulls actually declines...

....in other words, spike hunters keep killing 'em!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

And you know Iron Bear, I completely get what you're saying. I am NOT for unlimited tags at the current way the spike hunt is sitting. They haven't sold out the last couple years so their as good as unlimited. But I think you would see less people utilize spike tags anyway if you only hunted half the units every other year. That's the only way I would be for unlimited spike tags or a responsible amount. By hunting half the units, all spikes would make it through on 11/22 units every other year. That way having all spikes make it through 11 units every other year and some make it through the years units are hunted you would gain better bull numbers and quality on units.

Personally I think the spike hunt limits the amount of LE tags that can be released as well. If you allowed more spikes to live I think you'd see more LE tags and shorter wait periods.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Now as for your other comments Iron Bear... yes the Monroe unit is plastered with people. When it was a regional hunt, it was a mess. Every other unit was farther away, less access, and a harder hunt, so for the reason that the Monroe is close, very accessible, easier to hunt, and every hunter in the state knows where it is, it gets hit harder than **** when there's not a unit boundary protecting it. I hear people bash the unit every year for not having that big of bulls anymore, having few bucks of no size, and yet guess where they hunt after saying the unit isn't ****. Everyone bitches the unit has smaller bulls now, and not as many elk, and that surrounding units are better. But guess where they go to kill their cow during the archery hunt, or their spike during the rifle hunt. The easy access of trails everywhere and being so close to every town, make the Monroe a dream for the lazy hunters targets. And for those who know the unit, the secret away places get hit very hard too. It's a small unit with relatively no areas left untouched. Unit by unit deer management is the best way to go.

As for it becoming an LE unit, I once advocated that. I no longer do. With the unit by unit management it is better and keeps people on the unit they chose to hunt, rather than rush over to the Monroe and shoot a 2 point to fill their tag. LE would mean I could hunt the unit one or two more times in my lifetime, I will never want to see that happen to the unit, after sitting back and thinking about it. Option 2 will help, and I hope it stays option 2 for good.

As for the aspen regeneration BS. They have tore up the mountain a lot. And I'm so **** tired of elk getting the blame for what the cattle are the cause of. The cattle tromping and eating the leaves of the young aspen's is what the problem is. Yet farmers can sit and bitch on every bench of the unit that the elk are hurting their **** alfalfa. Farmers can stick it up their ass, the cows do more damage in a month on the mountain tops then elk will do in 10 years on their farm. Elk spending 3-4 months on the winter range when **** isn't even growing is not a problem and the stupid ass farmers who bitch and moan should simply be told to shove it. I raise cattle, pastures, and hay. Deer and elk have never given me any headaches or problems and have been on my property plenty. So to all of those who bitch, why don't you start growing crops instead of complaints. The high fences the forest service put up do nothing IMO. I can look on one side of the road in many areas where they put the fence up, and many where they don't, and their just isn't a difference. The fences interrupt natural migrations and all kinds of things, if cattle were better controlled I think you would see elk have very little effect on the way a stand of aspen trees grows. But yes they've burnt a good section (which is high fenced now) and they've clear cut large areas this year (which I'm sure will be fenced as well). It's nice to think that in the future these aspen regen. projects will really help, but right now their really messing things up. I hope their done with the clearing, burning, and tear down by the end of this year or next at least, so they can be done with that part at least.

Anyway that wasn't what this thread was about. It's about the spike hunt.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

wyo2 factor in the 250 cow rifle tags, and the cows taken on the archery hunt. Because as I stated before. People love the unit, especially for archery cow, because their are tons of roads and the elk are more approachable on the unit. But this post is not solely about the Monroe unit. I am talking the spike hunt state wide. I am not against it, but would like to see some changes implemented.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

What I said last year when you made these posts:



wyoming2utah said:


> A couple things regarding the Monroe and elk numbers:
> 1) herd estimates are for the Monroe are based on two things--helicopter surveys of the herd and ground classification counts. IF I am correct, the last helicopter survey for the Monroe was done in 2008 and 846 elk were counted. As in all aerial surveys done by game and fish agencies, a sightability index is used...in this case the index was 80% (not all elk can be seen or counted; through trial/error and research it is estimated that about 80% of the elk are actually seen and counted while 20% are not). So, 20% was added to the 846 elk and the population estimate for 2008 was about 1050 animals. Population estimates since that time are based on ground classification counts (bull/cow ratios, cow/calf ratios, etc.) and harvest data. These estimates are plugged into models that show approximate growth or declines in the herd. From 2008-2011 the Monroe herd was estimated to have grown from 1050 animals to about 1400 animals. The next scheduled aerial survey is for this upcoming winter/spring [this flight was done and the computer modeling proved accurate based on what was counted on the flight!] Also, only animals on Monroe are counted...it is not true that animals on other units go into these counts.
> 
> 2) Prior to 2010 the age objective for harvested bulls on Monroe was 5-6...because the unit's averages were above this, more LE bull tags were issued to bring the averages down and inline with objectives. Then, in 2011 age objectives were again increased to 7-8 and fewer LE bull tags were issued. So, it is clear that the number and caliber of bulls on Monroe should have seen a decrease...but, now, as tag numbers are being cut, the quality of elk should go back up. [And, LE tag numbers will continue to decrease until they have met that age objective on the harvested bulls...]
> ...


Also, per the monroe elk unit management plan: "Crop Depredation: The DWR will maintain programs to reduce the burden of crop depredation on private land. * Private agricultural land near Greenwich and Koosharem is subject to crop depredation by elk. Antlerless hunts have been and will likely continue to be implemented in this area.*
Habitat: The overall range condition is good for elk on both summer and winter range. However much of the winter range is being effected by an advancing pinyon/juniper forest. Current proposed projects as well as future projects must be implemented in order to reverse this trend. The summer range is producing more than adequate feed for elk; *however, there is concern with aspen decline. Possible over use by elk is a concern in portions of the unit. Large scale aspen projects are needed in order to maintain the current population of elk and sustain healthy aspen stands.
*

So, I am betting that if you called up Vance Mumford or emailed him, 1-I, he could give you some reasoning on the cow elk hunts. But, I am also betting that the reasons are due to the above two things: 1) crop depredation and 2) the aspen regeneration projects. Also, I just looked at the hunt boundaries for the three monroe cow elk hunts--one of them, the Greenwich hunt, is totally depredation and offers few tags. The other two--the monroe middle hunt and the monroe south hunt occupy very small geographic areas on the unit....I would be willing to bet that they are both low success hunts! Check out the boundaries of them...


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Wyo2, I have a cow tag for the middle section. A cow tag that's sitting in the envelope at home in my drawer, I have not an am not going to attempt to fill it. I'll keep the tag, I will back up my complaints. I put in for the anterless tag full aware that I was not going to try to fill it because I do not agree with the two new hunts both the middle and the south. And as for small areas, are you calling 3/4 of the unit a small area because that's what the south tags take up, and the middle section includes very prime elk country, so I doubt there will be to low of success rate. I talked to a guy who hunted Koosharem canyon opening morning and he said shooting was ongoing for the first hour almost non-stop taking cows.

As for the reasons you listed above, they were not the reasons released by the DWR or anyone associated with them I talked to. The reasoning was to get rid of cows that were wintering on the Dutton which was over objective. Now that's fine but why not just have a late cow hunt on the Dutton to solve this problem? And why is poverty included if that was the reasoning? I am frustrated because what they say and what they do are not one in the same. As for Vance I've talked to him plenty of times, plenty of times. 

I understand the Greenwhich hunt is for that, it's a small area with low success, I am not complaining about that hunt. I do not agree with the 230 extra cow tags they released on the unit, and where the hell are the aspen trees not, that they were before? If anything the pines are the what are disappearing. There's more aspen trees than have every been on the unit, that being said I'm happy about the aspen regen. projects, it's just ridiculous they imply aspen trees are declining on the unit. Everywhere they were they are, and everywhere they weren't their moving in. The pines however have been beatle killed heavily, especially up around signal peak where I don't think there are more than a few pines left living. The way I see things every government organization needs an excuse to put people to work, are these projects good yea, and it's good to see them being done. But to act like elk are the reason behind a decline in aspen trees (that isn't happening on the unit) is a ridiculous stance. It couldn't be the beef cows tromping over them, eating all the leaves could it. NO WAY we can't bitch at the farmers and their cows on the mountain, they can just bitch about the elk that visit their land for a few months when nothing is growing. Anyway enough with my ranting I guess. I have seen no noticeable difference between fenced areas and un-fenced areas the forest service claims destruction is done. I'll go to a spot take a picture and from one side of the road to the other, one had a fence the other side didn't and their is not a bit of difference in the aspen, grass or any other growth from one side to the other. It's a way the government gets to spend our tax dollars and keep people in work, which is fine, but I truly don't see the reasoning with the results.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

So, let me get this straight. If I shoot a spike on the Monroe instead of a monster of a 6x6 bull that I've let live. I've irreparably damaged that herd? Uhmmmm......

And what is the holding capacity of the winter and summer ranges on the Monroe? I don't hunt the Monroe so I'm just curious.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

There objective is 1800 klbzdad and the unit has stopped at an estimated 1400 since they opened up the archery to killing cows 3 years ago. They have not reached their objective and the unit was not showing growth yet 230 cow tags it was. The Monroe has good winter range clear around the unit , much of which doesn't get used.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> There objective is 1800 klbzdad and the unit has stopped at an estimated 1400 since they opened up the archery to killing cows 3 years ago. They have not reached their objective and the unit was not showing growth yet 230 cow tags it was. The Monroe has good winter range clear around the unit , much of which doesn't get used.


incorrect. The population has increased every year since 2005. Especially in the past 4 years.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/2012-05_elkplans_SRO.pdf


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I've read thru this whole thread, and you know what my take away is? 1-I is concerned because there aren't as many "big" bulls on the Monroe (e.g. it's all about the inches). Inches are freakin' ruining hunting and the way people view their success or lack thereof! I remember when a 300 class six point was a dream...then it went to 320, 350, 380...no wait it has to be 400 or my hunt's a failure. People really need to rethink this mentality. Sure everyone wants to shoot a big bull (myself included). I'd even like to shoot a 400 bull, but you know what, 400 bulls come at the price of waiting 20+ years for a rifle/ML tag and probably 10+ years for archery. Do we ever think for one itty, bitty moment that we are causing a detrimental shift in hunter participation/recruitment by making it so that we can only shoot a "big" bull every 10-20 years...meanwhile our kids are finding other things to do INSTEAD of going hunting with us???

I helped a friend with a Pahvant early rifle tag this year, and it was a wonderful experience. There was no lack of elk...there were elk all over the place! Now, maybe there wasn't a 380+ bull behind every tree, but is that even a natural phenomenon? My gosh, if you want a bull that will make everyone in your neighborhood's jaw drop, go pay a high fence operator for the extra bone. If you save your money for the 20+ years it will take to draw the actual tag, it's probably close to affordable. My question again though is, is it really in our best interests to limit participation so that we can only hunt these units once or twice in our lifetime, OR do we do ourselves a favor in the long run by getting off the inches band wagon and allow for more opportunity.

The spike hunts are such a low success hunt that you're not hurting the elk in the least. Yeah quality might go down slightly because there won't be as many elk to make it till next year (with the opportunity to grow bigger head gear), but really 6%, 15%, 25% success rates?? Let people hunt. You're going to whack a herd far more with cow tags than you ever will by letting people shoot a few of the spikes running around.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Mr . Mule look at the population estimates on the Utah Big game reports it is at 1400. Look it up.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Oh geez....1-I, it is one thing to present an argument based on facts and it is another thing to present an argument based purely on emotion. You seriously need to put the emotional diatribes aside and start thinking things through a bit!

Going back to 2008, 5 antlerless elk were harvested. Then, in 2009, 17 antlerless elk were harvested followed by 22 in 2010. In 2011, 20 cow tags were issued and a total of 29 antlerless elk were harvested. Again, in 2012 20 cow tags were issued and I bet not very many more cows were harvested during the archery hunt (I wish I had those numbers, but I don't). Sorry, but any lack of growth on Monroe has nothing to do with what the archery hunters are shooting.

Also, you talk about this great winter range clear around the Monroe, yet if you look clear around the winter range on Monroe, what do you see? Habitat projects. Why is that? Also, if the habitat is so good, why are so many elk migrating off the Monroe during the winter onto other ranges?

The reality is that you are seriously exaggerating how many elk are being killed--both cows and spikes. And, as far as big bulls are concerned, the huge cut in tags the unit has seen now for the third year in a row will only result in more big bulls for the future.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Wyo2 if you really believe people give the division accurate answers on their surveys your up in the night. Everyone I talk to says they say they didn't get one and they were disappointed, they think not being successful makes it look like there are fewer animals. I agree with you in advance it's stupid, but a lot of people who are successful report they are not successful to the division for stupid reasons instead of being honest. This is why I throw the success rated out the window I know for a fact those numbers aren't accurate based on the honest ness of people and the surveys. Lots of people lie if you don't believe me ask around.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Wyo2 if you really believe people give the division accurate answers on their surveys your up in the night. Everyone I talk to says they say they didn't get one and they were disappointed, they think not being successful makes it look like there are fewer animals. I agree with you in advance it's stupid, but a lot of people who are successful report they are not successful to the division for stupid reasons instead of being honest. This is why I throw the success rated out the window I know for a fact those numbers aren't accurate based on the honest ness of people and the surveys.


yea because nobody wants to show their success and appear as if they can't hunt to deflate the perceived headcounts. That makes perfect sense. They are such "honest ness less eses".


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Wyo2 if you really believe people give the division accurate answers on their surveys your up in the night. Everyone I talk to says they say they didn't get one and they were disappointed, they think not being successful makes it look like there are fewer animals. I agree with you in advance it's stupid, but a lot of people who are successful report they are not successful to the division for stupid reasons instead of being honest. This is why I throw the success rated out the window I know for a fact those numbers aren't accurate based on the honest ness of people and the surveys. *Lots of people lie if you don't believe me ask around.*


:doh: Do you have any idea how that reads?

I'm sure they will all tell you the truth about how them being liars.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Good thing they flew the unit last winter....! Again, the reality is that you are seriously exaggerating how many elk are killed....you have done this year after year after year and guess what? The sky still hasn't fallen and there are still lots of elk!


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

sometimes when my mom isn't home I like to run to the garden out back and cover myself with dirt and pretend I am a potato.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

While they were flying wyo2 and muleskinner did they fly it and count how many people actually got elk? There is no way success is sitting at 15% I'm not saying it's at 50 but it's higher than 15. There's plenty of people who believe if they report they didn't get an elk saw few elk and were very disappointed it will help things. When in reality they killed there elk what do they care if the division knows. I've known guys who have shot a big bull and sent in another families spike teeth in to see how accurate the divisions tooth aging data is, people are not truthful to the division.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> While they were flying wyo2 and muleskinner did they fly it and count how many people actually got elk? There is no way success is sitting at 15% I'm not saying it's at 50 but it's higher than 15. There's plenty of people who believe if they report they didn't get an elk saw few elk and were very disappointed it will help things. When in reality they killed there elk what do they care if the division knows. I've known guys who have shot a big bull and sent in another families spike teeth in to see how accurate the divisions tooth aging data is, people are not truthful to the division.


1-I-
Just about everything you state is pure conjecture. "I talked to a biologist (who wasn't yet a bio) who said "X"", "I saw lots of elk get shot", "I know people lie when they give their answers on big game surveys", "I know that success can't be 15%", etc., etc. Do you realize how obtuse this comes off? There are paid experts out there that have gotten a degree in their fields of expertise, understand statistics, and are paid to do a job (or get fired like the rest of us), YET they are all wrong because of what you think is happening based on your own experience and bias. The only reason these threads of yours go on so long is because you can't get it thru your skull that you are not the professional. Sure, you're entitled to an opinion like everyone else, but good gosh man, quit digging the pit deeper.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I lie on all my DWR surveys so it looks like There are no animals all the time. So people in Monroe are liars is that what you are saying? I guess I shouldn't trust anyone that lives south of Nephi.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)




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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> 1-I-
> Just about everything you state is pure conjecture. "I talked to a biologist (who wasn't yet a bio) who said "X"", "I saw lots of elk get shot", "I know people lie when they give their answers on big game surveys", "I know that success can't be 15%", etc., etc. Do you realize how obtuse this comes off? There are paid experts out there that have gotten a degree in their fields of expertise, understand statistics, and are paid to do a job (or get fired like the rest of us), YET they are all wrong because of what you think is happening based on your own experience and bias. The only reason these threads of yours go on so long is because you can't get it thru your skull that you are not the professional. Sure, you're entitled to an opinion like everyone else, but good gosh man, quit digging the pit deeper.


Not really. The Biologist, I speak of was a game warden in the process of becoming a biologist at the time, and told me he was told his count numbers were not good enough, so he needed to go look again and come up with some better numbers. He said he felt very inclined that he come back with better numbers in order to get his new position. Why would a biologist state those things if they were not true? It sure as hell doesn't make him look good or the DWR he works for.

As for the lying, people absolutly lie, I know many people who have said they have said they haven't harvested and were very disappointed, when I know for a fact they were successful on their hunts. This would skew the 15% number, and does disprove it. If people are not accuatly giving their results, then the success number is inaccuarate as well, and cannot be based as truth, if those surveyed have not provided accuarte information. That is not me having a personal bias, if people are lying that number can't be accurate.

As for the biologist with their high degrees. I have a degree as well, a peace of paper does not mean you know anymore about what's going on right in front of you, it just means a peace of paper says youve been taugt and sometimes lecured to believe something. That peace of paper does not guarntee you, you are right and that you know all. If bioligists had peaces of paper guarnteeing they were right many of our current problems would be solved. The people in our white house also have the upmost highest degrees of education, but that doesn't stop them from sitting around like kids on a playground not talking to one another and blaming each other like 3 year olds now does it. And we can be lectured by the mainstream left and right medias to believe one or the other side, but that doesn't mean its right does it? Degrees mean you learned something, degrees don't mean you've figured everything out or know all.


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## KennyC (Apr 28, 2010)

This thread makes me sick. Stop your dang crying about why you don't shoot your animal and tell someone that cares. There is no place that is a 100% success unit and as for the 801 population...we will hunt wherever we want. By the way I bagged my bull in a non 801 area this year. :-?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

KennyC said:


> This thread makes me sick. Stop your dang crying about why you don't shoot your animal and tell someone that cares. There is no place that is a 100% success unit and as for the 801 population...we will hunt wherever we want. By the way I bagged my bull in a non 801 area this year. :-?


Hey kenny why don't you tell someone who cares. I never head your way to hunt any animals, but all of you sure head my way don't you, and most of you don't give a **** how you treat the area while your here, that's why you don't care what you kill or how many, it's not in your backyard. You don't see it every day or have to watch it go down hill for 2 decades do you? No, so you have no comment on something I see every single day of my life bud, and have watched be taken down in both quanity and quality. Don't tell me **** about something you haven't sat and watched happen. I never said anything about 100%, I said success rates are higher than what is believed. So get over the "because it's written on a peace of paper it has to be true" attitude. Treat the area good when you hunt here, don't trash it, I've seen that all too often, and no I'm not saying you personally do so don't jump back with that bull****. Treat it good, but don't give your opinion to me on an area you haven't watched for you whole life, and seen what has happened over the years. Is the sky falling no, but I am resistance that doesn't want to see it eventually happen.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Hey kenny why don't you tell someone who cares. I never head your way to hunt any animals, but all of you sure head my way don't you, and most of you don't give a **** how you treat the area while your here, that's why you don't care what you kill or how many, it's not in your backyard. You don't see it every day or have to watch it go down hill for 2 decades do you? No, so you have no comment on something I see every single day of my life bud, and have watched be taken down in both quanity and quality. Don't tell me **** about something you haven't sat and watched happen. I never said anything about 100%, I said success rates are higher than what is believed. So get over the "because it's written on a peace of paper it has to be true" attitude. Treat the area good when you hunt here, don't trash it, I've seen that all too often, and no I'm not saying you personally do so don't jump back with that bull****. Treat it good, but don't give your opinion to me on an area you haven't watched for you whole life, and seen what has happened over the years. Is the sky falling no, but I am resistance that doesn't want to see it eventually happen.


Why don't YOU tell someone who cares? All you so is whine. I thought you left anyway?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> Welcome to the forum and please meet one eye, one of the most senior members of the forum. :welcome:


And the forum crybaby, forum chicken little, the list goes on.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

All you do marty is throw out what's been driven into your brain, not what you've witnessed and watched.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

I don't think you understand what disprove means. In your own words "I know people who have said they have said...." is by no means a qualifier that implies any semblance of relevant scientific data. 

Biologists are constrained by ACTUAL data. Only part of which is comprised of surveys, reporting, and hunter satisfaction. There is an inherent margin of error in this data to account for your few wonderful friends that think they benefit from lying about their hunts. Not as big an issue as you would think.

Your personal and wildlife bioligically ignorant views do not constitute fact. I don't even necessarily completely disagree with your recommendations, but your logic behind and reasons for your opinions don't hold water....


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Kwalk3 said:


> I don't think you understand what disprove means. In your own words "I know people who have said they have said...." is by no means a qualifier that implies any semblance of relevant scientific data.
> 
> Biologists are constrained by ACTUAL data. Only part of which is comprised of surveys, reporting, and hunter satisfaction. There is an inherent margin of error in this data to account for your few wonderful friends that think they benefit from lying about their hunts. Not as big an issue as you would think.
> 
> Your personal and wildlife bioligically ignorant views do not constitute fact. I don't even necessarily completely disagree with your recommendations, but your logic behind and reasons for your opinions don't hold water....


Kwalk, so that data you speak of, I don't know if you've read through the whole post, but how do you explain what the wildlife game warden/bioligist told me about the data he collected and then basically had to make better to suite his superiors wants? To me that's a pretty signifigant error in data, and is data suited better for what the DWR wants to see, not what is seen. Your ignorant if you can't open your eyes and view the world in front of you rather than what a peace of paper has trained you to believe throughout life.

Where up to 50 likes and 7 pages, I do a pretty good job of stirring people up. Obviously I can get a lot of people on the defense by not agreeing with what has been drilled into their brains.


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## HunterGeek (Sep 13, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> The Biologist, I speak of was a game warden in the process of becoming a biologist at the time, and told me he was told his count numbers were not good enough, so he needed to go look again and come up with some better numbers. He said he felt very inclined that he come back with better numbers in order to get his new position. *Why would a biologist state those things if they were not true?*


Maybe it's because he didn't do a thorough enough job of collecting the data. Maybe it's because he didn't follow the established procedures to ensure the most accurate population estimates. Maybe it's because he was conservation officer at the time and not completely familiar with the established methodologies used by the biologists.

Why do you automatically assume that the DWR pressured him to say there were more animals than were actually there? From what you wrote, it just sounds like he didn't do a good enough job, so he was asked to do it again.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I assume that because that's how he put it across , and if you had talked to him you would have taken it the same way. His numbers were influenced by what they said .


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Kwalk, so that data you speak of, I don't know if you've read through the whole post, but how do you explain what the wildlife game warden/bioligist told me about the data he collected and then basically had to make better to suite his superiors wants? To me that's a pretty signifigant error in data, and is data suited better for what the DWR wants to see, not what is seen. Your ignorant if you can't open your eyes and view the world in front of you rather than what a peace of paper has trained you to believe throughout life.
> 
> Where up to 50 likes and 7 pages, I do a pretty good job of stirring people up. Obviously I can get a lot of people on the defense by not agreeing with what has been drilled into their brains.


Sadly, I have read the whole post.

First, stop referring to a degree as a "peace" of paper. If you have one, surely you know the difference between "piece" and "peace":grouphug:.

Second, I feel like having the view that what I see with my own eyes is the only piece(not peace) of the pie is extremely ignorant. It is definitely a part of what I form my opinions with, but I certainly don't let my personal observations completely block out researched and proven methods and observations of others. After all, I don't have a helicopter or a degree in wildlife biology.

You keep pointing to isolated incidences of fudging numbers and reports as indicators that the stats are completely off. Margin of error allows for a little imperfection and movement either way, but as a whole, the numbers are much more accurate than your personal unscientific sample.

You say you are mostly just stirring the pot, but your true emotions stemming from what you see with your own eyes seriously cloud your ability to be reasonable when considering this and other issues.

Sometimes going against the grain doesn't mean you are a pioneer. It just means you are wrong. :banghead:


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)




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## Broadhead (Mar 2, 2008)

(801) hunter proud of his Monroe archery spike. BTW I took good care of *our* mountain. Saw plenty of elk.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I assume that because that's how he put it across , and if you had talked to him you would have taken it the same way. His numbers were influenced by what they said .


You "assumed"? Assumptions are not fact until proven so. I can assume things all day long with my wife. Usually assumptions only get me in trouble.

I wholeheardedly agree w/you on one item - a degree is simply a piece of paper, and is proof that you can do something. While not fool proof, it is also a good indication that the holder of said piece of paper at least has a basic grasp of the basics in their field of study. Thank heavens we let engineers build bridges and roads. I'm sure that if we put physical therapists in charge of road building, there might be issues. A guy w/a construction mgmnt degree may likewise not make a very good elementary school teacher. Let's just play along here and by logical deduction theorize that a wildlife professional, while not all-knowing, knows a bit more about overall wildlife dynamics than some guy in Monroe that assumes he knows it all.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

It's never good to ASSume anything, because we all know what we end up looking like when the facts are made known. And where is the "cheese" emoticon, it would go great with his whine....-O,-


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Kwalk3 the only reason items are isolated is because I can't talk to ever biologist and I can't talk to all hunters and know whether there truthful or not. NEITHER CAN YOU.... So don't say you can accurately state that it's isolated you don't know that . You just like me can't do the things I listed above either .

As for the paper and what you see thing ... Well obviously you see it as ignorant, you believe everything you hear or what they want to tell you. Hunting and fishing brings in millions for the state and private businesses as well as fund thousands of jobs. Do you really believe they don't want more money running through that system ? Open your eyes the quantity and quality is down. I can see that if you can't sit in your chair and read about research you didn't do and know nothing about other than its in a report .


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Broadhead said:


> (801) hunter proud of his Monroe archery spike. BTW I took good care of *our* mountain. Saw plenty of elk.


Oh my goodness, how could you do such a thing? That was the* last* one on the mountain! :sad:

I can't wait till the annual "they've slaughtered all the Monroe deer" thread comes out in a few weeks. That one is also always good for several days of entertainment. o-||


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

This thread is not about the Monroe unit. Let's discuss this: split spike units in half and hunt each half every other year.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> This thread is not about the Monroe unit. Let's discuss this: split spike units in half and hunt each half every other year.


If it wasn't for the fact that I enjoy hunting areas I can only hike into on the south slope, I would definitely make a point of coming down to Monroe to kill an elk in your backyard and make you watch.... Not only that, I have no idea where Monroe is even located.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

30-06-hunter said:


> If it wasn't for the fact that I enjoy hunting areas I can only hike into on the south slope, I would definitely make a point of coming down to Monroe to kill an elk in your backyard and make you watch.... Not only that, I have no idea where Monroe is even located.


1eye would not allow this blasphemy in the 435!! Take it back.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

martymcfly73 said:


> 1eye would not allow this blasphemy in the 435!! Take it back.


Well, to be honest I could shoot any bull AND a cow, but I was being nice.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> Also, you talk about this great winter range clear around the Monroe, yet if you look clear around the winter range on Monroe, what do you see? Habitat projects. Why is that? Also, if the habitat is so good, why are so many elk migrating off the Monroe during the winter onto other ranges?


BINGO! They are animals and therefore we really can't predict where they chose to go during the winter. I'm finding that the elk herd I hunt doesn't wander further than 20 miles from spring and summer grounds to winter range but do spend their time back and forth between the unit I hunt, and the neighboring unit during winter. This skews the estimated population numbers and therefore managers have to compensate when making recommendations on tags not only for that unit, but the surrounding units that the transient population may or may not be on. Ask your bio buddy.

Oh, and there was this particular bull taken this year off the Monroe by Dave Hatch during the muzzy (photo courtesy of some random email but also posted on Hunting-in Utah facebook page):


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Kwalk3 the only reason items are isolated is because I can't talk to ever biologist and I can't talk to all hunters and know whether there truthful or not. NEITHER CAN YOU.... So don't say you can accurately state that it's isolated you don't know that . You just like me can't do the things I listed above either .
> 
> As for the paper and what you see thing ... Well obviously you see it as ignorant, you believe everything you hear or what they want to tell you. Hunting and fishing brings in millions for the state and private businesses as well as fund thousands of jobs. Do you really believe they don't want more money running through that system ? Open your eyes the quantity and quality is down. I can see that if you can't sit in your chair and read about research you didn't do and know nothing about other than its in a report .


My eyes are open and my feet are callused.

I read plenty, but I would place a solid wager that I have put more miles on my boots and hours in the hills on a weekly basis than most anyone I know. Those observations from my time in the mountains are equally as important to me as what I read. I take both of those and form my own opinions. And my time in the mountains throughout this entire year has been pretty exciting and filled with some good quality animals.

I never said I completely disagree with your motives or even some of your ideas for solutions. I just disagree with the conclusions you draw from hearsay. Research is important, including my own time in the hills. Once again, science isn't claiming to be exactly perfect, due largely to the impossibility of perfect data collection.. But any self-respecting biologist anticipates those biases as much as possible and factors that into the overall assessment.

If they are making counts up, they should lose their credibility and their jobs. However, once again, just because "you know a guy" doesn't imply that all data collected is inherently non-credible junk. That's all I'm saying. Take a step back, take some emotion out of your "logic" and realize that this isn't some conspiracy, but rather using widely accepted methods for surveying and counts, to make a reasonable educated guess at herd numbers. Imperfect? Yes. But infinitely better than hearsay and observations that are clearly tied to strong emotions about a certain unit.

You do stir a mean pot though. And if this horse wasn't dead last year, it certainly is this year. :deadhorse:


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

So Kwakiutl let's talk about what we agree on rather than fight about what we don't. Yes it's an educated guess but if you haven't learned anything in the last two weeks politics and our government are involved in everything and a lot of the info where fed full of is not true. The DWR is a government agency , somewhere within it there is corruption, I'm not conspiracizing it, I just think that can be agreeable. I cannot say most data is skewed to be more ideal, but you can't say it's not. I have had a personal conversation with a biologist who basically told me the numbers were boosted to look better. If you had the same experience wouldn't you feel somewhat the same? What's on paper can only tell you as much as what is written on it . Yes it's all we've got, but accepting it without questioning it is foolish, people, government, and anything to do with the almighty dollar is usually not perfect or completely honest who's to say this is? When playing with money, peoples wants , and opinions, a lot can get influenced.


Anyway let's get back to what the threads about.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

That you like to tell FiRE in a crowded theatre a few times a year? Or that you make stuff up?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

One thing that I do agree with #1DEER on is that I would like to see would be a specific amount of spike tags for each unit.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

^^ hey lets try one more step to satisfy the inch guys! 
Not taking a dig at ridge just the process.

I can't believe how hard it is to manage an elk herd just to keep the inches. It was fine in a growing herd we could only issue a few tags when the herd was under objective. Good for people with max pounts! The rest get screwed for life with that approach!

Then came the cow slaughters when the herd was at or over objective. Still no more big bull tags came like they should have.

Then they killed too many cows and the bull to cow ratios were at an all time high on the monroe. This was 1-eyes wet dream. They literally had more bulls than cows and were forced to issue more tags finally. They issued them to rifles and when the smoke cleared 1-eyes quality was sacrificed.

They issue managment tags and people cry that young five points were being killed. Jeeeze that's better than a spike and people should have had to use their points but the inch guys whine and shut it down.

Then they implement the spike tags which is still a five point but inch guys like 1-eye seem to not care until they actually see them getting killed.

Listen inch guys you can't have everyone killing 12 year old bulls when they draw their tag when you are issuing the majority of the tags to high power weapons durring the rut or on the winter grounds!

Seriously this crap is a joke! Just think
1-eye if the herd is under objective by killing 95% of the spikes and killing the cows so the herd is under objective you can now cut the big bull tags and anyone who ever draws a tag can now kill a spider bull off their wheeler. It just screws my chances and my kids chances at a tag. It makes them as rare as a oil tag!

Ya 1-eye they have screwed your unit if you thought having more bulls than cows was a great managment plan. Its too bad you think the archers are too blame for coming in and killing all your elk.








^^
That was susposed to be a smiley face shooting itself in the mouth but it didnt work:banghead:


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

#1DEER 1-I;As for the paper and what you see thing ... Well obviously you see it as ignorant said:


> Are you a 9-11 conspiracy theorist? Do you believe that we're being fed a bunch of bull about the moon landings? A birther maybe? Sure there is corruption out there - most especially so in big bureaucracies, but what you're saying is that because of that corruption, forget the vast majority of professionals that do their jobs and do them well...JUST TRUST 1-I AND HIS ASSUMPTIONS.
> 
> You know what I see - elk just about everywhere I go. I see more elk now than I saw even 5-10 years ago. My inference - Quantity is up which is a good thing. You know what else I see? Yes, quality is down, but there is no shortage of people shooting 320-330 bulls. So they're not all 350+ - you know what, they shouldn't be as much as we all wish it could be so. You know what else I see? more people out hunting, more opportunity, and the chance to actually buy a tag over the counter (whether it be archery any bull/spike/cow, rifle/ML spike, or cow control). If I don't draw a tag anywhere else, I can still take my kids and go hunt GS elk which is a good thing in today's world.
> 
> ...


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

All of you guys research the 1 eyed buck thread. If it still exists from the old DWR forum. That will tell you all you need to know about 1 eye. And search for Chevy threads. Now if he started a thread saying he was probed by aliens we'd have the trifecta. 

On a side note , 1 eye, are there any one eyed bucks running around Monroe? I wonder if that deer passed on his genetics of having one eye?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

One-Eyed-Deer
http://UtahWildlife.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21463

Hopefully this works. Go down to 1 eyes post and enjoy! Those who haven't been around since the beginning.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

martymcfly73 said:


> All of you guys research the 1 eyed buck thread. If it still exists from the old DWR forum. That will tell you all you need to know about 1 eye. And search for Chevy threads. Now if he started a thread saying he was probed by aliens we'd have the trifecta.
> 
> On a side note , 1 eye, are there any one eyed bucks running around Monroe? I wonder if that deer passed on his genetics of having one eye?


I clicked on his profile to see the thread titles he has started, and boy he has started some really idiotic ones to say the least, it's obvious he isn't familiar with how to use Google to look things up.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

martymcfly73 said:


> One-Eyed-Deer
> http://UtahWildlife.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21463
> 
> Hopefully this works. Go down to 1 eyes post and enjoy! Those who haven't been around since the beginning.


So I read the first page and all I gather is that this 1-I guy is a big whiny baby.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

30-06-hunter said:


> So I read the first page and all I gather is that this 1-I guy is a big whiny baby.


This^^^


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> So Kwakiutl let's talk about what we agree on rather than fight about what we don't. Yes it's an *educated guess* but if you haven't learned anything in the last two weeks politics and our government are involved in everything and a lot of the info where fed full of is not true. The DWR is a government agency , somewhere within it there is corruption, I'm not conspiracizing it, I just think that can be agreeable. I cannot say most data is skewed to be more ideal, but you can't say it's not. I have had a personal conversation with a biologist who basically told me the numbers were boosted to look better. If you had the same experience wouldn't you feel somewhat the same? What's on paper can only tell you as much as what is written on it . Yes it's all we've got, but accepting it without questioning it is foolish, people, government, and anything to do with the almighty dollar is usually not perfect or completely honest who's to say this is? When playing with money, peoples wants , and opinions, a lot can get influenced.
> 
> *Anyway let's get back to what the threads about*.


It is an *uneducated* guess and "The Great Spike Elk Conspiracy" is precisely what this thread is about.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I do believe the general public is not hard to fool. You get told something or someone has it on a piece of paper and you automatically believe with no questions asked. I ask the questions because I've actually spoke to a biologist that said his numbers ended up skewed from what they were, did the piece of paper you read tell you that? I've talked to many people who have falsely said they were unsuccessful and disappointed during a hunt. Do the success numbers tell you that? Why is it the DWR used the excuse last year for releasing the cow tags as "reducing the amount of elk wintering on the Dutton", and you resist that and give other reasons, that the DWR did not state about why they released these tags. 

Inches are worth something to all of us. It doesn't matter who you are, if there's a 4 point and a little 2 point standing next to each other, each and every person on this forum would shoot the 4 point, meaning your all inch guys too, so don't hide behind your love of GS over the counter tags. If GS over the counter worked, we would all still be hunting deer every year. That didn't work. With rifles that can shoot 1,200-1,300 yards (and I know about 3 guys who actually can shoot, and accurately that far) muzzy's can shoot up to 300-400, bows can shoot 80-90, weapons have become so dead on, whatever's seen especially with a rifle doesn't have the best of chance of getting away. 

I was told by someone who every year kills a spike, every year kills a nice buck, and always has photos of nice bucks and bulls. That for the first time he actually felt bad sitting in the canyon the first morning after he shot his spike, because the cows didn't have a chance, and shooting persisted about every minute through the first 45 minutes at the herd of cows. He said it was the only time he felt bad about a hunt and watching how many shots were being fired and cows taken out. 

I'm an avid hunter, I'm not completely about inches. But I won't sit quiet and watch thousands of tags be released year after year and watch big game decline in the state, and sit back and say nothing. As for me whining, when the DWR is not backing up what they say, one of their biologists is telling me his numbers were skewed, and I've watched elk disappear on summer and winter ranges, as well as deer over the last decade especially, I'm going to have something to say about it. You guys sit in your wonder world and believe unlimited tags of every kind can be released with no ill effects, and I'll oppose every bit of it. Most on this forum think that no matter how many game birds, big game, waterfowl, whatever we take out, there will always be plenty left. Basic management should tell you that although wildlife is a renewable resource, it is not an unlimited resource.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Inches are worth something to all of us. It doesn't matter who you are, if there's a 4 point and a little 2 point standing next to each other, each and every person on this forum would shoot the 4 point, meaning your all inch guys too, so don't hide behind your love of GS over the counter tags. .


Bull.....I have taken calf elk with my bow simply because it is all the meat we needed. Did not hunt elk this year because I have a cow bison tag and I helped my brother out with his premium elk hunt. There are a lot of meat hunters. I have never understood the need to shoot a 4 point elk versus a cow or spike. Size is not all that matters. The young cows, calves and young bulls provide better table fare IMO. Furthermore.....how many mounts can a person have and what happens to the racks the don't make it to the wall? They become a bone pile in the yard right? They are horns and antlers. Nothing more. Nothing less.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I was referring to a 4 point deer and 2 point deer, but obviously you'll fill your tag with the target that puts itself in front of you especially with a bow. But side by side Mr Muleskinner your the one who is full of bull. Meat's great but you would not shoot the smaller buck or bull standing next to each other. If you say you would your a bold faced liar. You should at least be able to grant yourself respect enough to be truthful. Yes there are many meat hunters, but given the opportunity you would not shoot the smaller animal, its just a natural reaction.


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## fur-fins & feathers (Sep 21, 2013)

I'm curious about what others think of the rifle hunt during the elk rut in LE areas. Is that such a good idea?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

fur-fins & feathers said:


> I'm curious about what others think of the rifle hunt during the elk rut in LE areas. Is that such a good idea?


Under the current rules and regulations when else could they hold it? Should you be hunting large bulls during the spike hunt or when the snow can be 3' deep and pushing them into their winter grounds? If the division removed the spike hunts in the LE units then I believe that they could move the rifle hunt in LE units to the general season time and do away with the premium hunts but then that would take money away from them in the extra fees that they charge.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I was referring to a 4 point deer and 2 point deer, but obviously you'll fill your tag with the target that puts itself in front of you especially with a bow. But side by side Mr Muleskinner your the one who is full of bull. Meat's great but you would not shoot the smaller buck or bull standing next to each other. If you say you would your a bold faced liar. You should at least be able to grant yourself respect enough to be truthful. Yes there are many meat hunters, but given the opportunity you would not shoot the smaller animal, its just a natural reaction.


Seven elk came into the clearing when I took the calf with my bow. They were not all smaller calves than the one I took I assure you.

Guess what? I also don't own the biggest truck I can afford,the biggest house I can afford, the fastest car I can afford and I don't always grab the biggest steak in the grocery store or take the piece of pizza that has 4 sausages instead of just two. Call me what you want. Bigger ain't always better. I need a pile of horns at my house about as much as I need your wisdom.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Critter said:


> Under the current rules and regulations when else could they hold it? Should you be hunting large bulls during the spike hunt or when the snow can be 3' deep and pushing them into their winter grounds? If the division removed the spike hunts in the LE units then I believe that they could move the rifle hunt in LE units to the general season time and do away with the premium hunts but then that would take money away from them in the extra fees that they charge.


or they could rotate an area or two for archery hunters and charge more money for the opportunity to archery hunt during the rut.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I know that when I had my LE tag for the Book Cliffs back in 2001 that I could purchase a archery/muzzle loader tag for only $15.00 if I wanted to hunt those two hunts along with my rifle tag. Now that hunt started on 9/15 and the elk were going crazy. I couldn't tell you if it was easier or harder for me to take my bull since I shot him at 7am on opening morning.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I was referring to a 4 point deer and 2 point deer, but obviously you'll fill your tag with the target that puts itself in front of you especially with a bow. But side by side Mr Muleskinner your the one who is full of bull. Meat's great but you would not shoot the smaller buck or bull standing next to each other. If you say you would your a bold faced liar. You should at least be able to grant yourself respect enough to be truthful. Yes there are many meat hunters, but given the opportunity you would not shoot the smaller animal, its just a natural reaction.


Any "meat hunter" can tell you that the older the animal the less tender and more gamey tasting their meat is. This goes for both elk and deer. The cow I took this year with my bow, she was one of MANY that were within range and was by far not the largest nor was she the smallest. I was happy to take her and the roast I made the other night was awesome!!!


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I was referring to a 4 point deer and 2 point deer, but obviously you'll fill your tag with the target that puts itself in front of you especially with a bow. But side by side Mr Muleskinner your the one who is full of bull. Meat's great but you would not shoot the smaller buck or bull standing next to each other. If you say you would your a bold faced liar. You should at least be able to grant yourself respect enough to be truthful. Yes there are many meat hunters, but given the opportunity you would not shoot the smaller animal, its just a natural reaction.


There you go with your ASSUMPTIONS again! You have probably hit the earth's core by now. Just keep digging...you'll be to China soon.

You might be happy to know that I decided not to hunt the general hunt this year. I have a late season cow tag, so as much as I might like to have antlers on the wall, I don't need all that meat, and there will be one extra bull running around to chase next year. You have piqued my interest about the Monroe, if nothing else. I may have to switch areas next year and hunt it. Been there several times to conduct work on the cell towers at the summit. Might need to come back next fall with weapon in hand.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm putting you in that scenario Scott, which buck would you shoot ? If you would the 4 point you are an inch hunter as well.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

klbzdad said:


> Any "meat hunter" can tell you that the older the animal the less tender and more gamey tasting their meat is. This goes for both elk and deer.


I don't know about that. The bull that I took off of the Book Cliffs was 7 years old and was some of the finest elk meat that I have had and a yearling cow that I had taken a few years before was some of the worst. The buck deer that I took last year was a old bugger but weighed over 300 lbs on the hoof and so far I haven't had a bad piece of meat off of him.

I personally believe that it is how you take care of the meat on weather it is good or not but there are some that are just bad.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Critter said:


> I don't know about that. The bull that I took off of the Book Cliffs was 7 years old and was some of the finest elk meat that I have had and a yearling cow that I had taken a few years before was some of the worst. The buck deer that I took last year was a old bugger but weighed over 300 lbs on the hoof and so far I haven't had a bad piece of meat off of him.
> 
> I personally believe that it is how you take care of the meat on weather it is good or not but there are some that are just bad.


I thought you were an inch hunter who occasionally went out for meat.....jk

I have NEVER out of the hundreds of animals I've taken for meat, ever had a more mature animal taste better than a younger one. Ever. I've also never let an animals lay for more than 12 hours, sometimes working in the middle of the night to retrieve them and once working through thunder and lightning. I would put my 2 year old cow up against any 400 class bull anytime in quality of meat. But where I hunt, they get plenty of forbes and succulents that keep them from tasting gamey and I archery/muzzy hunt so in all honesty, I haven't had a single piece of bad meat from any animal....again, EVER. I am going to start putting the Monroe down as my second choice though for both bull and antlerless. Might even pick up one of those spike tags if I don't draw out in the Utah lottery.


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## fur-fins & feathers (Sep 21, 2013)

Anyone else think it's a good idea to hunt bull elk with a rifle when they are most vulnerable? Not sure it's a good approach unless the bottom line is to make the most $$ for the state. What's wrong with having limited entry bull season that same time as the general season? Other states do it that way...don't they?


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

fur-fins & feathers said:


> Anyone else think it's a good idea to hunt bull elk with a rifle when they are most vulnerable? Not sure it's a good approach unless the bottom line is to make the most $$ for the state. What's wrong with having limited entry bull season that same time as the general season? Other states do it that way...don't they?


I'd sure hate to have some Cow or Spike hunter blow my chance at a great bull after waiting 3.4 lifetimes to draw it....


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Inches are worth something to all of us. It doesn't matter who you are, if there's a 4 point and a little 2 point standing next to each other, each and every person on this forum would shoot the 4 point


Bullchit. I've personally passed on a 4pt with Packout sitting right next to me telling me to shoot the 4pt. Not saying I would pass... I *DID* pass.

I'm sorry in your world everything seems to be inch related, its not universal. Antlers to me only mean a legal animal to harvest or not. I've also shot 1 antlered deer over a 2 antlered deer... now that I think about out Packout was there for that one too.

-DallanC


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Let me just make this statement. I do believe in spike hunting and general season, but I also think there are small adjustments that could be made to get LE hunting at and back to a higher standard. My main concern is the cow slaughter the last decade. I would like less cow permits more than anything, and that's my stance. If the spike hunt remains the same it won't bother me , but it WILL make LE tags harder to draw and fill in the future. You can't shot all the spike and two point bucks and expect them to be there as 4 points 20 years later when you draw your tag. End such cow slaughter and I'll be perfectly happy with the spike hunt remaining the same as long as there are no noticeable signs it is hurting the health of utahs elk herd.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

the entire reason for the cow hunts is to maintain a stable and healthy herd.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

The herd is plenty stable. And many units are not close to objectives in their plans, there's no reason to anterless kill on many units currently with tags, and I'm not just talking about one. Maybe they want more if that funding you speak if. They cut deer tags and made it up somewhere else.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

klbzdad said:


> I thought you were an inch hunter who occasionally went out for meat.....jk


I am more of a horn hunter than a meat hunter but when the freezer is almost empty I'll pick up a cow elk tag to refill it. I will agree that there are a lot of animals that are older and that their meat will be quite a bit tougher than a younger animal but in my 40+ years of hunting I have only found perhaps 3 or 4 of them and out of those 3 or 4 only 2 that I just couldn't eat at all because of the taste of the meat.

As I said, if you take care of the animal as you said, get the hide off of it and spend the night if you have to to get it off the mountain along with keeping it clean will go a long ways in having a fine piece of meat for the next year. I also do my own butchering and will let the meat hang in my home built cooler in my garage for a couple of weeks before I cut it up.

I just cringe when I see a fine deer being hauled out of the hunting area in the back of a dusty truck being followed by a dust cloud with no care to cover the animal with a tarp. You can almost tell just what that piece of meat is going to taste like once it gets butchered.


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## fur-fins & feathers (Sep 21, 2013)

I would rather a few more surplus spikes be taken instead of killing off the best breeding stock when they are most vulnerable. But I'm not a horn hunter, just would like the regulations to make sense for the good of the herd. 

Seems like the season dates are out of whack, too. Am I the only one who thinks so?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

fur-fins-&feathers, I amw ith you. Season dates need to be modified, I personally don't think any hunt should run during an animals rutting time, let alone the most deadly weapon at the most vulnrable time. Deer, elk, moose, whatever, the animals should be left alone for breeding season, and I hope that is addressed one of these days. Aside from all the cows being killed in the state, that is probably my next biggest concern. It disrupts the bulls, kills them once they have their cow herd, and yes most cows get bred, but the best genes are being taken out (the week of the rifle hunt) when the bulls have gathered cows and are ready to breed, then the less dominant genes are being passed through the herd, which is not good.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

there are so many holes in your post that it is not even worth the effort


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Here are the facts of the effects of spike permits on LE units every year:
Beaver unit: 
2005-06- The unit had 28 bulls/100 cows, and 17 mature bulls/100 cows
after spike hunt was implemented:
2010-11- The unit now has 13 bulls/ 100 cows, and only 8 mature bulls/100 cows
The Dutton unit:
2005-06- 39 bulls/100 cows & 18 mature bulls/100 cows
after spike hunt was implemented:
2010-11- 16 bulls/100 cows & only 8 mature bulls/100 cows
The Monroe unit:
2005-06- 50 bulls/100 cows
after spike hunt was implemented:
2008-09- 31 bulls/100 cows and 16 mature bulls/100 cows
The Boulder unit:
2005-06- 42 bulls/100 cows & 31 mature bulls/100 cows
after spike hunt was implemented:
2008-09- 11 bulls/100 cows & 6 mature bulls/100 cows
Fishlake unit:
This unit has always been open for spike hunting look how much lower its statistics are:
2005-06 13 bulls/100 cows & 7 mature bulls/100 cows

So looking at these count numbers and statistics the spike hunt has had a signifigant effect on LE units. In fact to a point there bull/cow ratios are no better than a General Season deer units Buckoe ratios. So I'm putting in for 15-20 years now in order to hunt basically General Season odds and quality for elk? So everyone who was hiding behind Bull:cow ratios are still above 30 bulls: 100 cows or closer can look at these statistics and look at where we were to where we are now. Granted it is very nice to see the elk population in the state growing, but bull:cow ratios have dropped signifigantly.


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## fur-fins & feathers (Sep 21, 2013)

Muleskinner, how so?


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## gunplay (Apr 28, 2008)

I know one guy who bow hunted there and didn't kill a spike!


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## fur-fins & feathers (Sep 21, 2013)

Murphy's law says if you only have a spike license, all you'll see will be big bulls! Similarly, if you have that rare LE bull tag, you can bet you'll be run over with spikes.

I appreciate the discussion and different viewpoints, but could do without all the personal attacks that some are making. If people are happy with the status quo, feel free to defend it. But if not, what's wrong with trying to get the UDWR to discuss their rationale for the current season structure and tag quotas. If there's solid biological basis for it, there should be data to support it. 

Personally, I would like to see some changes to season dates, starting with the archery season that starts in the middle of August, the hottest time of the year. And then only a three week season? In exchange for a token extended season that's mostly on low elevation private land? Then there's limited entry rifle season at the peak of the rut to pick off the prime bulls? 

I guess I just don't get it.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Lets look at more statistics shall we:

Average age of LE bulls harvested has dropped like this over a 5 year period, after the spike hunts were implemented on all LE units in the state:

Pahavant: 7.8 to 6.8
Beaver: 7.7 to 6.7
Monroe: 7.9 to 6.0
Dutton: 6.6 to 5.0
Fishlake: 7.3 to 6.0
Boulder: 7.8 to 7.3
Panguich: 5.8 to 5.5

Many high quality units have dropped both in bull:cow ratio's and the age of bulls harvested, if you don't think yearly spike hunts have effects on the units there's your proof you are wrong. Age objectives were raised on most the units I listed above just before this season and most age objectives are 7.5-8, so if you don't think changes are coming you are wrong. If you would modify the spike hunt to an every other year for each unit type thing, you would have more bulls making it through, and more LE tags could in the short future be released while still keeping the GS spike hunt, implementing more LE tags because more young bulls make it through, and in the end would create more opportunity. Units aren't meeting age objectives, bull:cow ratio objective, or population objectives, much will change to do that.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Lets look at more statistics shall we:
> 
> Average age of LE bulls harvested has dropped like this over a 5 year period, after the spike hunts were implemented on all LE units in the state:
> 
> ...


Interesting Monroe dropped 1.9 years average. Obviously the dumbest elk in this example live in Monroe. Good thing we are now killing them as spikes to prevent breeding.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Or maybe it's because everyone hunts that unit. Do you realize how many people are there. It's close to every town around it, and it's the go to place to just hop on your 4 wheeler and ride up on after work every night. Monroe has suffered the most out of any of the units, it has the largest age drop, and one of the largest drops in bull:cow ratios, as well as the number of mature bull counts. That aside, every unit has suffered surrounding it to, and they have dropped in both categories as well. Should our LE elk units really be sitting with bull:cow ratios the same as buck:doe ratios on general units when we have to wait 20 years to get 1 chance?


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm not going to hunt the Beaver for spikes / cows anymore. MONROE....HERE I COME!!!

Come on man. The harvest ages are as varied as the hunters taking them year to year. Post each year's data and I bet it looks like a W.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Actually klbzdad since the spike hunt has opened it looks nothing like a W it looks like this \

As for hunting Monroe, yes about 5 years ago it was the top quality herd in the state. It had the highest bull:cow ratio and oldest age if bulls being harvested . Since the spike hunt it has dropped big on both and is not anything special. It's definently not worth the wait to draw a tag anymore. Hey I've got 5 years before I can even put in for elk again... And here's a little secret for you quantity and quality have dropped so much on the unit I didn't even choose to wait to draw that tag. That's right not even I decided hunting Monroe for elk was worth it anymore. One good thing I can say is overall population on it has went up, but that's been put at a hault with some cow tags this year. Whatever the numbers of what the spike hunts done to a lot of units are right there, all I can do is show them to you, you have the choice to ignore them or accept them.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Personally, I am really glad that the quality and bull/cow ratios have dropped! What that means is that more elk hunting opportunity has been given and people have been given an opportunity to hunt! What sickens me is that the expectations of people like you are so high and unrealistic; 20 years ago, a 300 inch bull was considered a trophy. Now, though, people are often mocked by shooting one that isn't 300 inches on an LE unit. It is really sad that we have become so entitled as a hunting population that we feel like we need to manage for those hunter magazine trophies.

Here is a quick newsflash for you...again, the elk survey done a few years ago gives some pretty interesting, but not surprising, results:

Question Number 21: "To produce more mature (large) bull elk requires reductions in bull harvest, which makes it harder to draw a permit. Managers need to know whether hunters are willing to make trade-offs between the size of bulls and the amount of opportunity to hunt. Please indicate which one of the following choices you favor the most by checking the appropriate box.
Definitions:
Age 6-7 yrs old, very large bull elk (Boone & Crockett score 340+)
Age 5-6 yrs old, large bull elk (Boone & Crockett score 300+)
Age 4-5 yrs old, medium bull elk (Boone & Crockett score 270+)

The results: About 45% said they would rather "Draw *every 5-10 yrs for a 4-5 yr old bull*
About 33% said they would rather "Draw every 15 15 yrs for a 5-6 yr old bull"
About 23% said they would rather "Draw every 20+ yrs for a 6-7 yr old bull"

Again, 1-I, your thoughts are in the minority! Sadly, though, the WB didn't listen to public opinion and raised objectives to fit the minority...sad, really sad!


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Actually klbzdad since the spike hunt has opened it looks nothing like a W it looks like this \
> 
> As for hunting Monroe, yes about 5 years ago it was the top quality herd in the state. It had the highest bull:cow ratio and oldest age if bulls being harvested . Since the spike hunt it has dropped big on both and is not anything special. It's definently not worth the wait to draw a tag anymore. Hey I've got 5 years before I can even put in for elk again... And here's a little secret for you quantity and quality have dropped so much on the unit I didn't even choose to wait to draw that tag. That's right not even I decided hunting Monroe for elk was worth it anymore. One good thing I can say is overall population on it has went up, but that's been put at a hault with some cow tags this year. Whatever the numbers of what the spike hunts done to a lot of units are right there, all I can do is show them to you, you have the choice to ignore them or accept them.


Post the numbers! I'm on the road or I'd gladly do it. They only look like that because those are the most expedient numbers to suit your gripe. Are they not? SHOW THE NUMBERS! Then I'll shut up.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I'm putting you in that scenario Scott, which buck would you shoot ? If you would the 4 point you are an inch hunter as well.


No 1-I, you're putting everyone into that scenario and then generalizing and assuming what they would do. I am not the same as Mr. Mule Skinner, Critter, W2U, etc.

What would I do personally? I like both the meat and antlers. I would shoot the 4 pt, unless I'd shot that same type/size deer on numerous occasions before. Why do I need a rack that is a carbon copy of others? If it's something I've shot many times over, I may just go ahead and shoot the 2! Do I like inches - sure. Is it everything, and will I sacrifice the opportunity to hunt just so I'm guaranteed a bigger animal on the off chance I pull a premium tag? NOT A CHANCE!

People don't come in the one mold that you'd like to throw them all into. I used to hunt deer on the Pahvant and knew an older guy who would say "you can't eat the horns"! Are you going to say that guy is a liar assuming that he's going to shoot the one with a bigger rack given the chance? I just told you he could care less about the antlers. Would you call him a liar?

Generalizations, stereotypes, and assumptions get people into trouble all the time. Your posts are full of all three, and you'd serve yourself better to try and dial it back if you ever want to persuade folks to your viewpoint.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Lets look at more statistics shall we:
> 
> Average age of LE bulls harvested has dropped like this over a 5 year period, after the spike hunts were implemented on all LE units in the state:
> 
> ...


If you think that a LE tag is no better that a GS tag (from a previous comment), that's your call. What I saw on the Pahvant this year would suggest the exact opposite. Elk running everywhere! I don't see that on GS units. Average ages went down mainly due to the fact the DWR issued more LE tags in order to give more opportunity to clean out some of those at the top tiers of the bonus point pool. The spike hunts surely impacted numbers as well, but not to the extent you would like to believe. Now the DWR is cutting back on the LE tags in many of the units as, I believe, Critter indicated above. As a result, average ages will start to tick up again, but opportunity will go down.

You want to raise average age classes, that's your call, but in so doing, you probably have one hunt...maybe two in your lifetime to look forward to. I personally don't think the tradeoff for a bigger animal is worth it. I'd rather be hunting.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Scott, I agree there are much more elk. I am comparing the current bull:cow ratio's as being the same as the general deer buck:doe ratio's. On many units bull:cow ratio's are not as high was many might think.

As for GS elk units, I think the reason there are much fewer elk is because of the amount of cows pulled off many of the units, if so many cows were not pulled off the units the herds would probably do better. No they wouldn't be LE units, but and I'll admit this cows are the backbone of the population, and bulls are the necessity in small numbers, but when putting in for 20 years we are gathering our hopes and dreams into pleasing ourselves with big bulls and a lot of them.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> but when putting in for 20 years we are gathering our hopes and dreams into pleasing ourselves with big bulls and a lot of them.


But, we shouldn't have to put in for 20 years....that is the road that people like you have taken us down. That is the whole problem....as the question on the survey I posted pointed out, we could be drawing every 5-10 years. But, as soon as we head down that direction, people like you start whining about the quality dropping--which is exactly what you are doing now. The crazy thing is that the public has voiced their opinion and would rather have more tags for lesser quality bulls....



#1DEER 1-I said:


> As for GS elk units, I think the reason there are much fewer elk is because of the amount of cows pulled off many of the units, if so many cows were not pulled off the units the herds would probably do better.


Huh? What are you talking about? I don't see major cow hunts for GS areas...the GS areas I know are general because of all the private land and depredation issues. And, if you look at the GS areas on the North or South slope of the Uintas, you don't see significant cow harvest. And, some of the other GS areas are areas where the DWR really doesn't want elk--Pine Valley and the Henry's, for example.


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## fur-fins & feathers (Sep 21, 2013)

As with MWScott72, I'd rather be hunting, too. I'm in it for the experience-- not even the meat or the horns, although both are nice rewards for the effort you put into the hunt. And you don't learn much about elk or elk hunting if you only get to hunt quality areas once every 5 or 10 years. 

I don't think the obsession with large antlers is good for the herd, either, as it pressures UDWR to offer the LE bull hunts during the rut. Blowing away a raging herd bull at 30 yards with a high-power rifle doesn't prove you're some kind of great hunter, either. 

Those willing to limit their success by using primitive or traditional equipment should be rewarded with more opportunities to hunt.

Just MHO.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Funny. I've been reading some of Lewis & Clark's journal entries this past week. When at Fort Clatsop in Oregon, they came to detest elk, their primary red meat source for the winter they spent there. They considered them easier to kill than deer, and rather bland compared to deer, and not nearly as delicious as the bison of the great plains. And in fact, they'd often trade elk meat to the Indians for dog, which they highly favored. But the part that I found interesting, is they considered elk an inferior game animal, and "so easy to kill, it is hardly any sport in it."


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Elk were a plains animal then right? Much like Bison? I thought it was only after the encroachment of the "whiteman" they shifted into predominantly being a mountain animal. Indians sure killed alot elk... you see lots of pictures of Indians with clothing covered in elk ivories.

















-DallanC


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Waiting 20 years to hunt elk is a sure way to be let down by the final result if it's not EXACTLY what you were hoping for. Just sayin'.


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## fur-fins & feathers (Sep 21, 2013)

Even having to wait 5 or 10 years is a slow way to become a former hunter.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

fur-fins & feathers said:


> Even having to wait 5 or 10 years is a slow way to become a former hunter.


Agree with you 100%!


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