# Loop hole worked!



## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

So I just checked my points and sure enough I gained a point. I also drew the tag I wanted as a second choice. So the loop hole worked perfectly.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Enjoy it, it will closed by this fall. If you draw any tag you loose your points, like it should be.


-DallanC


----------



## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Enjoy it, it will closed by this fall. If you draw any tag you loose your points, like it should be.
> 
> -DallanC


I hope you are right... but I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Enjoy it, it will closed by this fall. If you draw any tag you loose your points, like it should be.
> 
> -DallanC


Are you sure of this? (I hope you are correct) I have heard that before and we still have the loophole.


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

It always amazes me that people figure this stuff out. I am glad it worked for you though.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The wildlife board are going to discuss this very thing this coming August, they have people collecting data right now from what was mentioned at the end of the last meeting. 

Then it sounds like they will make a decision on it this November.


----------



## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Enjoy it, it will closed by this fall. If you draw any tag you loose your points, like it should be.
> 
> -DallanC


its worked like this in Wyoming for years, I dont understand the problem.


----------



## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

yak4fish.... How many preference points did you have and which tag did you draw as 2nd choice?


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

bugchuker said:


> its worked like this in Wyoming for years, I dont understand the problem.


It only became a problem when the DWR implemented micro deer units, from the original 5 units we had. Previously the Southern Unit was the unit people most wanted to draw, and had the longest wait. So the preference point system was designed to cycle people through as quick as possible, giving people who had gone the longest without a southern tag, "preference" over people who had had a tag more recently.

With micro units, people exploited this system by putting in for one unit that had poor odds... making those odds even worse over time, to get an advantage over people who didn't know about how the system worked and had few or no points.

-DallanC


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

They have two options either if you draw you lose your points like Nevada or run through everyone's first choice before moving onto the second choice like Wyoming. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> They have two options either if you draw you lose your points like Nevada or run through everyone's first choice before moving onto the second choice like Wyoming.


I prefer the latter.

If you loose your points with any tag drawn, the unintended consequence is people won't fill out the 2nd through 5th choices, refusing to burn points on a lesser unit. This will result in having a lot of left over tags, and then it will be a free for all at 8:00 a.m. on a July morning to get the tags.

I'd rather see the tags taken as part of the draw process, and not punish those who aren't available that specific morning in July to snatch a tag for one of the lesser units.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

brisket said:


> If you loose your points with any tag drawn, the unintended consequence is people won't fill out the 2nd through 5th choices, refusing to burn points on a lesser unit. This will result in having a lot of left over tags, and then it will be a free for all at 8:00 a.m. on a July morning to get the tags.


Sorry no, if people lose points then the system is restored to its original intent, people can draw units they prefer quicker than any other method. Drawing all 1st choices isn't the intent of the whole system, it was created, and named to give Preference to people... to get them through the line as fast as possible.

Some kind of mish-mash of preference points and functionality of the LE draw is just a mess, and frankly just isnt needed. Implement loosing points when drawing any gen deer tag, you'll have draw odds drop down to drawing every couple of years for the more popular units (which btw, is what southern used to be before we went to micro units), I'll bet most other units remain close to 1:!.

-DallanC


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If you want to see how the WB is approaching the subject you can watch the April WB meeting and the discussion was about in in the last 15 minutes or so. So you can fast forward it to about the end to hear what they said about it.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/1845-watch-the-wildlife-board-meeting-april-28.html


----------



## clean pass through (Nov 26, 2007)

I used the loop hole this year for my wife and 12 year old son. It worked like intended. My 12 year old gets to hunt and that is what I really want. 

I think it should work the way I thought it always did until it was explained to me on this site. My understanding before was.....You draw your 1st choice you loose your points. If there are tags left over the second round it goes to the next ones that put in for the unit that has tags left over. But since you did not draw your desired tag first you still get a point because it is less desirable for you. Makes sense to me and also fair. 

I still believe if you want to hunt you can pull a tag every year you just have to be willing to hunt the units that you might not necessarily know. I myself have done that a few times just because I wanted to hunt. 

I still think you should not loose your points if you don't draw your first choice but it should just mean you all start over at 0 after the first round. Points should not have benefit after the first round.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I agree with pass through-- use points for 1st choice. 2nd through 5th everyone is in one pool and don't use points. That way there is no incentive to attempt to game the system.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

loophole worked for both my kids,
Permits plus points......Pretty AWESOME!

I just went points this year in Utah as I'm spending ALOT of Wyoming
deer and antelope points on both.
Odds say 100% chance of drawing----- I'm hoping!.
It will be a OIAL hunt if I pull both permits, Same unit.
102 Deer and 59 antelope.


----------



## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

I don't understand wanting to change the points loophole. People should just use it. Geez..


----------



## clean pass through (Nov 26, 2007)

Agreed with, "elkantlers" just use the loop hole. Not that big of a deal. 

Opportunity to hunt is there, just use it and learn new areas when you don't draw your first choice for a few years. Just make sure you put areas for the 4th and 5th choice that are easy to draw to ensure a tag.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

goofy elk said:


> loophole worked for both my kids,
> Permits plus points......Pretty AWESOME!
> 
> I just went points this year in Utah as I'm spending ALOT of Wyoming
> ...


Both are tough hunts for residents to draw.

Good Luck.


----------



## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I think the cleanest solution would be make the general buck deer draw exactly like the antlerless deer, elk, and pronghorn draws... keep the drawing proccess as is but if you draw a tag you use your points regardless of which choice it was.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I'd like to see them go to one point system only for the general deer. Buck or doe it doesn't matter. If you want to spent 10 points on a doe hunt then go ahead and do it. Other than that every ones first choice gets drawn first, second choice through whatever is no points considered.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Critter said:


> Other than that every ones first choice gets drawn first, second choice through whatever is no points considered.


That seems to be what I consider the best outcome. If points are used to win a permit, as the current system allows (correct?), then they would ideally be lost when a tag is provided, whether first or last choice. But the system described in the quote above allows people to apply for the desired unit and then have secondary outcomes that don't affect your long term ability to get the most difficult units. Those choices just shouldn't be weighted if that is to be the outcome.

"Loopholes" inherently benefit the few people who know about them. As a new hunter I approached my application assuming there were no loopholes since I was unaware of them at the time. If the current design has unintended consequences then it needs to be corrected, like all loopholes in in systems. If its by design then the "loophole" needs to be transparent and discussed on the DWR website and booklets (do they do this already?).

Live and learn on my part. I got a hunt in a beautiful location without realizing I could approach the lottery in a way that would have allowed me to keep my points.

Phillip


----------



## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

backcountry said:


> "Loopholes" inherently benefit the few people who know about them. As a new hunter I approached my application assuming there were no loopholes since I was unaware of them at the time. If the current design has unintended consequences then it needs to be corrected, like all loopholes in in systems. If its by design then the "loophole" needs to be transparent and discussed on the DWR website and booklets (do they do this already?).
> 
> Live and learn on my part. I got a hunt in a beautiful location without realizing I could approach the lottery in a way that would have allowed me to keep my points.
> 
> Phillip


There is nothing hidden or non-transparent about the "loophole". It's not my fault you, or others, didn't read the proclamation for the last ten years. You know about it now so use it.

Dumb to change a good thing.


----------



## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

I think Utah is like all others states out there. Its fairly complicated to figure out due to each species and often even hunt type being drawn with different rules, but I have to agree with elkantlers. 

If people are so uneducated on the process to even read the different draw processes or get involved to the point of understanding why they are not drawing, I do not feel sorry for them. 

The true fix to this issue IMO is to make a decision on the lifetime licenses and dedicated hunters and combine the buck deer all into one draw. Its silly to have two draws for buck deer.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I can only speak for myself but in no way do I want sympathy. I made my choices and will run with it. It would not have affected my success this year anyways since I drew an LE. Talking about the issue isn't about placing blame but about making the system higher functioning for everyone.

The preference point and general season parameters are just kind of confusing compared to the LE system. Every other weighted lottery I have used for outdoor pursuits are simple use and lose it philosophy. Having multiple lotteries with different processes is complicated for new hunters like myself. I am only two years into big game hunting and still have alot to learn. 

If the people speak and choose the current process than I don't see any harm to having the Big Game Application Guidebook (which I read but obviously didn't fully understand) having something like a sidebar that clarifies the "loophole" and how it affects success ratios and application choices. Or at least a webpage on their site that is more educational and clear on how the draw system works because its not easy to understand. Hopefully I will make my most egregious mistakes with the application process during the sharper portion of the field learning curve. 

At the end of the day I just want a chance to have fair access to hunt and be in the field.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You will never see on the division web site or in print from the DOW how the loophole works. You can find how the draws work which gave birth to the loophole.


----------



## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

Since I struck out on the Utah draw using their loophole, Im going to use the "other" loophole, buy a general deer tag OTC and hunt Region G.


----------



## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

backcountry said:


> I can only speak for myself but in no way do I want sympathy. I made my choices and will run with it. It would not have affected my success this year anyways since I drew an LE. Talking about the issue isn't about placing blame but about making the system higher functioning for everyone.
> 
> The preference point and general season parameters are just kind of confusing compared to the LE system. Every other weighted lottery I have used for outdoor pursuits are simple use and lose it philosophy. Having multiple lotteries with different processes is complicated for new hunters like myself. I am only two years into big game hunting and still have alot to learn.
> 
> ...


I agree with you and think the "loophole" should be spelled out in the application guidebook. It is not a loophole at all, It is how the process works. If the RAC and WB vote to change it I have no issue with that.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

bugchuker said:


> Since I struck out on the Utah draw using their loophole, Im going to use the "other" loophole, buy a general deer tag OTC and hunt Region G.


When are you going?

If I do not draw 87 deer tag, I will be hunting region G on the combo when rifle elk opens provided I do not draw 22 elk tag.

The Wyoming resident loop-hole, put in for a unit with a 2-5% draw odds and hunt deer and elk every year in units that would be a limited entry in Utah.


----------



## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> bugchuker said:
> 
> 
> > Since I struck out on the Utah draw using their loophole, Im going to use the "other" loophole, buy a general deer tag OTC and hunt Region G.
> ...


Ya that's neat. Gonna need to look at retiring in Wyoming in t minus 20 years. Especially since im an opportunity hunter.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

3arabians said:


> Ya that's neat. Gonna need to look at retiring in Wyoming in t minus 20 years. Especially since im an opportunity hunter.


No need to wait, come open a business and contribute the economy void that coal is leaving behind.


----------



## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> When are you going?
> 
> If I do not draw 87 deer tag, I will be hunting region G on the combo when rifle elk opens provided I do not draw 22 elk tag.
> 
> The Wyoming resident loop-hole, put in for a unit with a 2-5% draw odds and hunt deer and elk every year in units that would be a limited entry in Utah.


Depends on if I draw 45 elk or 101 deer. The second one is laughable,its like a 1% chance. I bought a crossbow this year and may decide to head up on September 1st for deer, and unless I draw 45 elk as well.


----------



## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> No need to wait, come open a business and contribute the economy void that coal is leaving behind.


What he said. Me and a guy I work with were talking yesterday about all of the business opportunities in Wyoming.


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

this is my favorite thread


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

bugchuker said:


> Depends on if I draw 45 elk or 101 deer. The second one is laughable,its like a 1% chance. I bought a crossbow this year and may decide to head up on September 1st for deer, and unless I draw 45 elk as well.


I was going to roll with 45, but I drew in Utah so I took a shot in the dark to 22.

101/102/141/87 are all laughable draws for deer, but if you draw you will be doing the happy dance.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

wyogoob said:


> this is my favorite thread


Goob, but it doesn't contain the words "Ptarmigan"

Where are you putting in for in the state of Wyoming?


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> No need to wait, come open a business and contribute the economy void that coal is leaving behind.


Whatcha needs up there? I just got layed off at work... along with +300 coworkers. Really trying to come up with something new / different to try out. I was kicking around a move to Sheridan 4 or 5 years back... maybe time to explore that again.

-DallanC


----------



## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Whatcha needs up there? I just got layed off at work... along with +300 coworkers. Really trying to come up with something new / different to try out. I was kicking around a move to Sheridan 4 or 5 years back... maybe time to explore that again.
> 
> -DallanC


What do you do?


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Goob, but it doesn't contain the words "Ptarmigan"
> 
> Where are you putting in for in the state of Wyoming?


I always do General Elk and General Deer, a no-brainer, the best options for elk and deer in the whole state. I drew the Bighorn Sheep tag so I will devote less time on deer and elk hunting this year.

I applied for Any Antelope 95 and a couple Doe/Fawn Antelope tags, 94 and 100, I think.

.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

DallanC said:


> Whatcha needs up there? I just got layed off at work... along with +300 coworkers. Really trying to come up with something new / different to try out. I was kicking around a move to Sheridan 4 or 5 years back... maybe time to explore that again.
> 
> -DallanC


There needs to be jobs to replace the void that coal and natural gas are leaving in their wake.

There is a need for salary employees in the area that have the talent and experience to preform Safety, HR, engineering, etc

I follow the companies on linked in and there are job postings for those fields.

I would think in terms of what the area produces and how can I jump into that market.

Soda Ash and fertilizer (phosphate) are relatively stable.

Soda Ash can travel a long way before getting turned into cleaning products, glass, or paper. Finding a way to move the manufacturing of each closer could result in more jobs in the area and potentially a nice little profit.

There is talk about lithium and uranium mining operations. There may be an opportunity their. Uranium is the more risky of the two, because of the market it for it. Lithium is depending on the green energy push up its value as a battery asset.

The recreation and tourist industry around Jackson is another interesting field, but mostly seasonal. People pay $2.50-$3.50 for a standard woolly bugger in Jackson. To me those flies are $0.89 to $0.99 in value. You could find a way to leach off the rich there.

There is a bunch of things that you could do as far as business.

I think that winter changes the mind of business owners and wives in Wyoming more than anything else.


----------

