# whats your opinion?



## wasatchwillie (Apr 15, 2010)

Ok , help me out here. Merriam, rio, or cross?






TAKEN ON THE BOULDER, UP HIGH! 18 LBS, 8 INCH BEARD, NO SPURS NOT EVEN A NUB! NOTHING!


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

The telltale is the dark/white band on the primary wing feathers. Rio's have bigger black band's and Merriams have bigger white bands. Other than a tremendous amount of white on the tail, it's hard to tell. I have shot Merriams in NM that have a cream to almost bronze look to the "white" in the tail feathers. Also, Merriams have tendency to be a little lacking on the hooks sometimes. The first Merriams I shot was the same as yours - 8" beard, no spurs and came in a full strut.

So, to answer your question by looking at the wings - Merriams.


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## wasatchwillie (Apr 15, 2010)

It is so darn hard to tell! I was hoping, and thinking, it was , but not sure! The wings appear to be a Merriam, but the off white,almost buff color threw me! thanks for your reply!


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## Guest (May 19, 2014)

I think you got yourself a Merriams/Rio hybrid. The lower wing feathers have more white than black like a Merriams but the fan tips are buff-colored like a Rio. Either way, you got a nice bird here. Way to go!


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Looks a lot like a hybrid (or at least what I think is a hybrid) I took last year. My bird had more white in the wings and maybe a little lighter tail. Your wings look more like a rio to me, but that tail has more white than the Rios I've taken. It is definately not a rio, either a hybrid or merriams IMO. Unless you pay for dna testing, you may never know, I still don't know for sure what I killed last year. I think we have a lot more hybrids in utah than we know.


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

*Hybrid*

Congrat willie,
The truth is all Utah turkeys are hybrids, with a questional maybe on the east Lasal Mountains, which may be the only true Merriams in Utah. The DWR knows this so I don't know why they even specify this in their proclamation.
Birds in* all* areas will show characteristics of one or more of the other.
Hybrids is what brought turkey hunting to Utah as we see it now. This mix in 1986 started us to where we are today.
Earlier transplants in the 50's to 60's of merriams barely held their own.
An estimated turkey population in Utah 1985 , 1000-1500 was stretching it, today estimates 25,000 to 30,000. Hybrids was the answer, althought that had some fights back in the 90's.
Shot my first turkey on the boulders 1985, and yes that was an Merriams
Good hunting


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

gpskid is right on the money. About all I could add is that this same bird, be he hybrid, crossbreed, mutant, what ever, is the same bird that is populating nearly all the western states. He is clearly not a pure breed. But the good news is he is the perfect bird for our world today. There are populations of pure breed birds of all subspecies left in the country; but this mongrel we have roaming America today is tough, adaptive and a survivor. 
It is just not known for sure from where our bird came, but a study of the transplant history of turkeys might give us a clue. He definitely wasn't here, and turkeys did not start their upward population growth, until after we started transplanting the Rio. At some point in time the subspecies mixed and the magic happened. 
It is fun to try and determine what that bird is that you just bagged, but the reality is that he is just a turkey...enjoy our good fortune.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

As far as all birds in UT being a hybrid is not entirely accurate. There are some true Rios in a certain part of the state and there are many more true Merriams in western states than you may think.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Merriams tail fan feathers aren't always white, they can also be a whiteish "buff" color. there's a name for it but I cant remember what they call it, I was looking into that very thing when I shot my turkey last year, now I don't know what a hybrid looks like, but your's looks like one of my merriams.. great bird though Nice! although I do have reason to believe BPturkey knows his turkeys


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

*lets hear it*

That would be great to know....Where ?

Since I spent 18-20 years trapping and transplanting turkeys to Utah with the DWR since 1986
BP's been around those years also, he knows his stuff when it comes to turkeys

If I thought it was an issue and I had the time for non-believers , I could show you pics of over 30 birds shot in Utah 
that had both , kilt from the same flock.

Pure breed and all that stuff would be great, but Utah tried that for 30 plus years, didn't work, thanks to a man from Cedar city that seen the future, (Thanks MR. Coles) (Bruce B ) wouldnot have happened in Utah till Rios were brought in.
Look where we are at, hybrids were the answer, when Rio's were introduces on the lower levels of the boulders they exploded, same with the pine valleys and pavant area, then the move was on, except for some few in moab that wanted to keep their prestine flock of merriams.
Them birds are still at a small level.

It took 23 years when they first started introducing Rios to have OTC permits, five to give Limited, the previous 40 years were lost, now 7-8 thousand enjoy this hunt.

This was alot of work and committment from the NWTF, DWR and other sportsman groups to get us to where we are today.


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## wasatchwillie (Apr 15, 2010)

Thanks everybody! I found a web site, from Arizona, pat feldt biologist and guide. From every picture he has posted, and all I have read on the net, I have a , as far as I am concerned a Merriam for the most part! From the the color on the rump and tail, along with the primary wings, more white than black, white quills, rather than dark, and the lack of or shortness of spurs! maybe not 100 % merriams , but good enough to convince me!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

The truth is folks, both strains can exhibit both color phases. Here's a case in point. Ol'Zimmy and I shot all four of these birds within a five mile radius in eastern Montana. A place where they ONLY have Marriums turkeys. But as you can see, they all have different coloring. However, look at the one with the stark white feathers. This bird is an example of what I think of when I hear the word Marriums turkey. He's a gorgeous bird and now sits mounted in Zimms home.


Now here's two more shot from the same exact area in Montana a year later. These are both Marriums turkeys and look pretty much like you'd expect them to.


The bottom line is, if you want to shoot a pure strain Marriums, hunt where they have that kind of bird and nothing else. Otherwise you're looking at some kind of hybrid. Here's another case in point. I also hunt Idaho. A place where for several years there was ONLY Marriums. About ten years ago some dummy decided it would be cool to turn a bunch of Easterns loose on his property and look what happened. Those Eastern turkeys wandered off and decided to fall in love with the local population of Marriums and now you never know what your going to shoot. These four turkeys were killed in two days and not two miles from each other. But look at the color differences between them all. A couple look like they could be Marriums, and a couple look like they have eastern in them. That pretty caramel color is what you get when the two hybridize.




In Utah, as was mentioned before, the ONLY place you're going to find true Marriums in on the La Salls. Everywhere else, it's crap shoot.

BTW, nice turkey buddy.;-)


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## wasatchwillie (Apr 15, 2010)

The reason I hunted the boulder is: Utah southern zone biologist sent me there , where I shot the bird, to harvest a true merriams. I figured he , would know if anyone one would. He never mentioned the la sals? regardless, I am happy with my bird which I am going to refer to as a Merriam. I did see one in the flock that was more white than the others but couldn't get him! I have taken a LOT of easterns, several rios in Utah, and one in northern Idaho that was supposed to be a Merriam also, and does look almost exactly like the bird I got here. so thanks guys! understand what youre saying! nice collection of birds there!


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

That's a merriams. Congratulations!


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

But I can assure you the biologists in Utah cannot tell the difference between a rio or merriams. They only go by location.


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## wasatchwillie (Apr 15, 2010)

thanks hawglips!


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