# How many of you agree?



## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/news/08-01/poach.php
In this case it states that SEVERAL Poachings have been reported in the Vernal area? How many of you suspect that this foul play is brought about from those employed by the oil company? I have read about several cases in Wyoming where non residents who work in the oil fields claim to not be aware of the local game laws and claim ignorance on illegal harvests and recreational killing. In one of the specific cases in Wyoming a non resident oil field worker actually ran down pronghorn with a company truck and intentionally killed the animal. I believe that people can rationalize that in their specific location the game population is abundant enough that the absence of a few unsuspecting animals wouldn't hurt. Vernal is a small town and many of those who work in the oil fields come from larger citys where they are used to having a little more "fun" in their larger citys. 
My other question is if non residents who work for the oil company are the ones responsible for the poaching incidents, is it fair to request that they (the oil company) inform their employees about Utah game laws?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't think so.

Vernal is a small town and therefore breeds small town mentality. In small towns all over the norm for many generations was to practice that kind of behavior when it comes to wildlife. I think poaching is a skill that is handed down from generation to generation and quite common across thye nation. The small town local boys have been doing it for ever and not geting caught because they know the land owners, know the land, and know how to get it done and not get caught. As long as there is "good ol' boys" in small towns there will be poaching going on. Not to say some of the transient workforce isn't guilty of the crime, but I think local folk are the majority of the offenders.


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## bowhunter3 (Oct 18, 2007)

THere is no excuse for poaching, the oil field workers no its against the law and I don't even know if they are the ones that did this stuff. Could be some coyote hunter that decided after not seeing anything to start killing what ever he saw. And the only reason your here about people in smaller towns poaching is because they are usually located next to mts. that have easy access to a lot of animals. In vernals case we are actually minutes away from good country that goes on for miles and I am sure it is very hard to watch all of the country to stop this stuff. It is a shame though. Last year when all those trophy class bucks were poached on diamond mtn. my buddy is the one that turned all of those kids in, it is a shame it happens, these kids just left those deer to rot and then bragged about it in town. -)O(-


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I think Tex-o-Bob nailed it right on. I grew up in a small town that experienced a mining boom. The "mine trash" got blamed for a lot of poaching activities. And they probably did some. But it was the locals, the good 'ol boys, that took it to an art form and even did it professionally. And everything Tex mentioned is exactly true. A few minors would go and pop a deer or antelope here and there, but the locals were taking a dozen elkin Hoss's back 400 acres and running full blown poaching guide services for bighorns, goats, and trophey mule deer and elk in the back country. When I was on my mission, my Dad sent me the newspaper articles documenting the arrest and conviction of my high school football line coach, for running a full-blown poaching guide service. He grew up in the area, and was a good ol' boy in every sense. In a single year, his "guide service" took more than a dozen bighorns, leaving 6 to rot because they were not quite a full curl. It took Fish and Game infiltrating as clients to finally bust the guy. It makes me sick to think of everything else he was part of. 

Anyway, my experience in a small town supports that it is the locals that are more responsible than the miners or oil field workers, or whatever transplants happen to be in the area.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Having grown up in a small town, locals are more likely to poach due to "opportunity" to do so. The temptation is greater for a "local" miles from another person. Folks in the city don't get the "opportunity" to poach as often as "locals". I do believe though, when 'new folk' move into rural areas like oil fields, they DO poach as often as the "locals".

I am some what troubled when I see comments blaming the limited entry program as the "cause" of poaching. I was a teenager in the early 80's, when there were more deer and MORE TAGS available, and LE wasn't even on the radar, yet poaching took place EVERY year. This was also BEFORE the so-called "trophy hunter" syndrome started "ruining" hunting. :roll:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I am some what troubled when I see comments blaming the limited entry program as the "cause" of poaching. I was a teenager in the early 80's, when there were more deer and MORE TAGS available, and LE wasn't even on the radar, yet poaching took place EVERY year. This was also BEFORE the so-called "trophy hunter" syndrome started "ruining" hunting. :roll:


Oh come one Pro, surely you aren't this naive...we both know the money involved in and being paid for trophy animals. Do you honestly think that the money given for trophy antlers hasn't increased dramatically?

Read this brand new article:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A966958260


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't think it's responsible to "blame" LE for poaching. But, it certainly creates more for the poacher to choose from and better poached trophies to brag about.

Suppy and demand, it's simple really. As long as there are big critters out there to temp folks, there will be poaching going on. A good friend and client of mine is a fish cop in Salina. Two years ago they had record snowfall right at the time of the deer hunt. There were a few poaching violations that he was involved in and he said the majority of them were good guys with no priors and good reputations for being law abiding sportsmen. These were guys he knew personally. But the snow forced a lot of big bucks right down near town and the temptation was just too much for some guys and they broke tha law.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I am saying, to pin this on "trophy hunters" "taking over" is nonsensical. Poaching has been around my whole life, and I am sure it happened before I was born. I'll even go so far to say that I believe poaching was MORE common 20 years ago that it is now. This is due to fewer "opportunities" to poach, and improved methods of catching the dirty SOB's. To blame it on "trophy hunters" and the limited entry program is inane.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

More common than it is now? Not in Montana according to this article:
http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/taah-v-20040501.html


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Nice wyo2ut, you now are referring us to ANTI-HUNTING propaganda sites. :roll: The site you linked to is *C.A.S.H., Committee to Abolish Sport Hunting*. I am sure there is no spin or agenda being pushed by these 'good friends' of yours, right? :evil: How about a few links to H.S. and PETA while your at it?


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Pro i will buy that poaching was happening in force 20 years ago. But the dwr and the enforcment of the laws were much more lax toward poachers alot of the same laws were in effect, but judges were not passing down sentences or just slaps on the wrist. Now im am not saying their was not the ocassional example set and a good punishment was handed down. However it was the exception not the rule. It was in some of the older crowds minds that it was their right to poach, Or so they would boast about bringing home and illegal buck and closing the blinds and have it in the freezer within an hour. I found this appalling, however the feeling was, "a nice buck was cool", but the meat was more important the change is that the animal is only taken for sport the meat is left to rot. Now really Whats the diffrence poaching is poaching Wheteher it is for meat or antlers the animal was illegally killed. However i believe you will get people poaching animals just to defy the UDWR and the system that has been created to shove them out of what they beileve is their right to hunt. and the UDWR is pressing poachers harder than it ever has in history starting with the succsess of the LE hunt WHY? Money. Jugdments are strict, and now extend across state lines, you poach in utah lose your right to hunt in a multitude of states. This in my mind is right! you should loose your rights, but i do not believe that the intentions of the dwr are as pure as they let on. Trophy hunting is important! As is all diffrent kinds of hunting without diversity where would we be? But the thought being is that the UDWR is catering to the trophy hunter only, with good reason its smart buisness. The Non res or the res for that matter that will stop hunting utah because of the 70 dollar bonus point, is inconsiquental to the UDWR weed them out, to allow the big money hunters to pay top dollar for the tags, it is smart however in doing so they forgot that they work for everyone not just the big dollar hunters. Can you tell i am still POed about having to buy a utah license for a bonus point?   Ps i am still wondering what to do with my moose oil points only have a few but it valluable time to build them up now at this rate i will have paid many thousands of dollars just to get the tag. :x


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

My thoughts are that the trophy poachers are the ones that take most of the blame for poaching but do LESS than the MEAT poachers by a LONG WAYS!!!

People come accross the deer or elk that was left to rot and the head was taken. That gets publicized and it shows how hunters are no good terrible people who waste wildife. The fact is that there are a FEW no good terrible people who make the rest of us look bad.

On the other hand, the ones that poach for meat, leave nothing to have people happen upon and they take the evidence home with them. Bottom line is no one knows that they just shot 5 does last night and so the blame goes no where. 

I believe as was mentioned that the local small town "good guy" does MUCH more damage in the area of poaching than the guy who follows big bucks around and then kills it. The small town guy is a poaching machine but doesnt think what he is doing is wrong.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I put that I think its likely. They're way out in the middle of nowhere working on a rig. I think they have just as much opportunity to take out deer, antelope or whatever as some local driving out from town. Do the locals poach?? Heck yeah, like anyone else with small town backgrounds, I know they do. There always seems to be the "good ol boy" network in these little towns. I know I've snagged a few bass and gills from some farm ponds back in the day when I lived in the sticks. Would the owner have been bent about me fishing there?? Probably not, but being a mischievious little s**t, I didn't intend to find out. Thats minor but I'm sure like Garyfish said, some of the stuff goes on in full swing behind the scenes. Is it all out of staters?? I have no idea but I'd say probably not.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

> To blame it on "trophy hunters" and the limited entry program is inane.


First Pro, I don't think anyone even said the word "trophy hunters" until you brought it up.

Second when I think of LE hunters I don't think of "trophy hunters". 5% of the guys who hold LE tags every year might be in that class but most are just average everyday hunters who finally got enough points.

Also having grown up in a graduating class of 89 people I would say the local boys made up a large portion of the pochers however the ones I knew of when I was younger (and should have turned in back then) were killing just to kill, does, spikes, fawns. Shooting forkies and leaving them to find something bigger.......not taking any meat. A lot of archery guys just sticking arrows in anything that moved. You may have your Jed Clampets out there filling the freezer whenever they please but I wouldn't go so far to say meat hunters crave that meat so bad that it tempts them to poach.


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## Nibble Nuts (Sep 12, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> My thoughts are that the trophy poachers are the ones that take most of the blame for poaching but do LESS than the MEAT poachers by a LONG WAYS!!!
> 
> People come accross the deer or elk that was left to rot and the head was taken. That gets publicized and it shows how hunters are no good terrible people who waste wildife. The fact is that there are a FEW no good terrible people who make the rest of us look bad.
> 
> ...


I agree.

If you want to see some evidence of major poaching, go down the country roads by Mayfield. You will find heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over the road sides out there. These doe obviously are not being shot for their trophy value.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

You have the guy who kills to eat the meat. You then have the ones who just shoot to kill animals for the fun of it; but the worst of all is the ones who just shoot it, cut the head off, and leave the rest to rot.

Most of the meat shooters' are going to operate close to home; it's usually the same with the killing for the fun of it types most of the time.

But while some may disagree with me; I guarantee you the trophy poachers will hang out around the LE units-WHY- Because the controlled harvest leads to a lot more trophy animals that are easily accessible to them, and that's what they are after; so LE units may not cause all poaching it sure attracts more than its share of it for the before mentioned reason.



> If you want to see some evidence of major poaching, go down the country roads by Mayfield. You will find heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over the road sides out there. These doe obviously are not being shot for their trophy value.


Some of those carcasses might be poached but if it's around hunting season you might be surprised at the people who are too lazy to properly dispose of a carcasses, they just drive into the rural areas and dump it along side the road.

Oh yeah, I dont think it's fair to group a whole profession (oil Field workers) as being poachers; and IMO most non-resident hunters follow the law.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> If you want to see some evidence of major poaching, go down the country roads by Mayfield. You will find heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over the road sides out there. These doe obviously are not being shot for their trophy value.


Sorry, but I am calling BS! I just called my dad and my cousin, both live in Mayfield and both have farms on the "country roads", neither has seen "heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over". :roll: But, I agree *most* poached animals are not poached because of their living on a LE unit, but because of the opportunity to do so.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Nice wyo2ut, you now are referring us to ANTI-HUNTING propaganda sites. :roll: The site you linked to is *C.A.S.H., Committee to Abolish Sport Hunting*. I am sure there is no spin or agenda being pushed by these 'good friends' of yours, right? :evil: How about a few links to H.S. and PETA while your at it?


Is this your best comeback? Oh come on...go back and look at the article. It is an Associated Press released article...it was NOT written by an anti-hunting group.

Had you spent the time to read the article instead of quickly dismissing it because of which site it was on, you would have seen that most of the information was taken from the Montana fish and wildlife department.

But, if that is not good enough for you, how about this one: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n10001508

I especially like this quote: ""The commercialization of trophy wildlife is one of the biggest problems we have, because the biggest and the best elk are shot dead," said Dale Schaefer, a criminal investigator for the DOW."

There is big money in trophy animals...and a huge underground poaching problem to get those animals.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Wyo2ut, the more and more you post then I thank my lucky stars that your not a biologist. Im glad you couldnt pass the biology classes. You cannot blame everything on trophy hunters or having trophy animals in this state. We need to have stiffer fines for people who get caught and a long prison sentenance so people would think twice before they decided to poach an animal.



> The town of Estes Park sits at the entrance to Rocky Mountain National Park. It's not uncommon for poachers to shoot trophy elk that wander outside the park and sell the antlers to businesses such as taxidermy shops, according to the DOW


.

Sounds like they need to get their butts out and patrol the areas a little better. They should go after taxidermy shops who are involved with mounting the animals. If I took a bloody deer skull with a huge rack to a taxidermist this time of year dont you think the taxidermists would be a little suspicious about the animal I was bring to him?


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## Nibble Nuts (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> > If you want to see some evidence of major poaching, go down the country roads by Mayfield. You will find heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over the road sides out there. These doe obviously are not being shot for their trophy value.
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I am calling BS! I just called my dad and my cousin, both live in Mayfield and both have farms on the "country roads", neither has seen "heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over". :roll: But, I agree *most* poached animals are not poached because of their living on a LE unit, but because of the opportunity to do so.


Go ahead and call BS. I know what I've seen and your dad and cousin can't change that. Because they live there, am I supposed to now think Mayfield is some haven for super ethical hunters? I've seen alot of dirtbags down there, and yes there is a road on the south end where I have found piles of carcasses. If J-bass were still around he could veify this claim, because it was his families cabin we were using that is located right by where I am referring to.
Wish I knew road names, but it has been 2 years since I was last there.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Nibble Nuts said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > My thoughts are that the trophy poachers are the ones that take most of the blame for poaching but do LESS than the MEAT poachers by a LONG WAYS!!!
> ...


I saw the same thing off the road through Indian Canyon. I ran into a B.L.M. Officer and asked him about it. His reply was, the state will collect road kill from a certainradius and deposit them in the same spot of the road a ways.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> I saw the same thing off the road through Indian Canyon. I ran into a B.L.M. Officer and asked him about it. His reply was, the state will collect road kill from a certainradius and deposit them in the same spot of the road a ways.


I have heard of a carcass dump up in Box Elder County. I would have thought they would dump them in the landfill up there; that's what they do down where I'm from.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Nibble Nuts said:


> *You will find heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over the road sides out there*.
> 
> Go ahead and call BS. I know what I've seen and your dad and cousin can't change that. Because they live there, am I supposed to now think Mayfield is some haven for super ethical hunters? I've seen alot of dirtbags down there, and yes there is a road on the south end where I have found piles of carcasses. If J-bass were still around he could verify this claim, because it was his families cabin we were using that is located right by where I am referring to.
> Wish I knew road names, but it has been 2 years since I was last there.


First you say I "will find heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over", then you say you haven't even been there for at least *two years *. What gives, talk about hyperbole. :roll:

I also NEVER said/implied no poaching goes on down in southern Sanpete, in fact I was very clear that it does happen there and in other low population areas. :? I do dispute that it is anywhere near as rampant as you claim.* If* you found heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over the road sides, I seriously doubt they were trophy animals, and *if* your claim were true it would prove my opinion correct, since there isn't a LE deer unit anywhere near Mayfield.


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## Alwayshunt10 (Dec 27, 2007)

This is my first post. I believe this happens every where not only in the oil industry but in the construction industry also. My family has land in the Park City area and with all the new con struction in the area (all the new homes in the mountians) I have caught people poaching claiming they didn't no the laws. I believe they know what trophy animals are and they are in remote areas and take advantage of it.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Nice wyo2ut, you now are referring us to ANTI-HUNTING propaganda sites. :roll: The site you linked to is *C.A.S.H., Committee to Abolish Sport Hunting*. I am sure there is no spin or agenda being pushed by these 'good friends' of yours, right? :evil: How about a few links to H.S. and PETA while your at it?


Pro, 
I was just about to post the same response... I am sure that they are a fine bunch -BaHa!- NOT, I have a hard time taking anything from such groups objectively.


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## Nibble Nuts (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Nibble Nuts said:
> 
> 
> > *You will find heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over the road sides out there*.
> ...


Did I say anything about them being trophy animals? I don't think so. Did I say a word about LE units? I don't think so. I was making more of a reference to the good ole boy mentality in places like this. They were almost all doe FYI.

Yes I said heaps of carcasses stacked in piles all over. That is what I saw, and I am not going to change my descriptiom for you because others who have seen it would probably describe it the same way. I'd bet I could still find the same situation if I were to venture that way again. How's that for hyperbole? 8)


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > Nice wyo2ut, you now are referring us to ANTI-HUNTING propaganda sites. :roll: The site you linked to is *C.A.S.H., Committee to Abolish Sport Hunting*. I am sure there is no spin or agenda being pushed by these 'good friends' of yours, right? :evil: How about a few links to H.S. and PETA while your at it?
> ...


That's just it...the link to the article I posted was NOT written by an anti-hunting group. It was written by the Associated Press...a national news medium that most papers in the country use for national news articles. These anti-hunti groups use these types of articles to beef their arguments...it is sad that hunters themselves are the ones giving fodder to the anti-hunting groups.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> That's just it...the link to the article I posted was NOT written by an anti-hunting group. It was written by the Associated Press...a national news medium that most papers in the country use for national news articles. These anti-hunti groups use these types of articles to beef their arguments...*it is sad that hunters themselves are the ones giving fodder to the anti-hunting groups*.


I agree, so why do *you* continue to try and DIVIDE hunters with your *STUPID* links? Why possible good can come from *you* intentionally drive a wedge among hunters?

FYI, the AP is NOT a hunter friendly place. If you think for one minute the 'mainstream' media is unbiased, you are in need of help more than I thought.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

> I agree, so why do you continue to try and DIVIDE hunters with your STUPID links? Why possible good can come from you intentionally drive a wedge among hunters?


PRO, I don't think just because someone doesn't get on board hook, line and sinker with you, Don, SFW.... or any other group doesn't mean they are driving a wedge between hunters. If you or anyone out there has a vested intrest in hunting and especially if you are lobbying for change you better be ready for discusion and debate. *"What possible good can come"*? Maybe some checks and balances so not one side or the other takes it to an extreme.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> why do *you* continue to try and DIVIDE hunters with your *STUPID* links? Why possible good can come from *you* intentionally drive a wedge among hunters?


Divide hunters? I think you are doing as much as I am to divide hunters...but, for argument's sake, let the bolded portion of the article below try to answer that question for itself.

December 9, 2006
Poachers in West Hunt Big Antlers to Feed Big Egos

By RANDAL C. ARCHIBOLD
ELY, Nev., Dec. 3 - A bighorn sheep lay in a field not far from here, its head missing. In nearby Elko, three elk and five deer died from gunshot wounds, their carcasses rotting in the hills. And in the distant mountains, game wardens searched for another elk that a tipster said had been killed by illegal hunters apparently just for the thrill of it.

The reports keep coming in - elk, deer, antelope, bighorn sheep and other big-game animals - killed in a wave of poaching that has alarmed state and federal wildlife officials in Nevada and several other Western states.

The authorities said they are seeing more organized rings of poachers and unlicensed guides chasing the biggest elk and mule deer, with the largest antler array, sometimes trading them on Internet auction sites or submitting pictures to glossy hunting magazines that prominently feature big kills.

"There is almost a fixation on possessing or obtaining trophy-class animals," said Jim Kropp, the wildlife law enforcement chief for Montana, which this fall began a new public awareness campaign about poaching called Enough is Enough. "People," he added, "will go to any length to have these things in their possession. It's big antlers and big egos."

The federal government does not keep national statistics on poaching incidents, but wildlife law enforcement officials in several states, mainly those with large populations of elk, mule deer and other animals prized for their impressive antlers or girth, have raised concerns about the rash of complaints and the big money that seems increasingly a factor in the cases they investigate.

The officials said tight regulations on where and what can be hunted at various times of year, part of an effort to manage the size of big-game herds, had motivated some shooting out of season or on restricted land.

The National Park Service wrote in a budget statement last year that poaching had contributed to the decline of 29 species of wildlife in the 390 parks and other sites it oversees.

An interstate compact set up 15 years ago in a few Western states to track and punish violators of hunting laws across state lines has grown to 24 states nationally, including New York this year. Big-game crimes, mostly related to poaching, accounted for 42 percent of the violations to the compact last year.

"We treat these as essentially homicides," said Lt. Jerry Smith, a Nevada supervising game warden. "But it is such a secretive crime. We have no witnesses to work with, just the bodies, when we find them."

A decade ago, Nevada tallied 50 or so animals poached or killed out of season and by hunters without permits. Last year, 70 such animals were found, the highest number ever; so far this year the tally is 65, and with a few weeks of the biggest hunting left, Nevada officials said the number could surpass last year's.

And game wardens here suggest that far more animals may have been killed than they have found; they calculate that they find 1 percent to 5 percent of poached animals.

Poaching is not Nevada's problem alone.

This year, Montana and federal investigators seized 30 elk heads and prosecuted 22 people in a poaching ring who drew fines and the ring leader, Danny McDonald of Gardiner, Mont., a year in federal prison.

They had illegally led out-of-state hunters to trophy bull elks leaving Yellowstone National Park.

In Idaho, Ed Mitchell, a spokesman for the Department of Fish and Game, said poaching cases in the state had remained steady in recent years, but the crimes increasingly are carried out by people in the black market for antlers and heads, which can fetch tens of thousands of dollars.

"Legitimate hunters don't find it entirely understandable, but some people will pay to have some critter on their wall they can claim they have shot," Mr. Mitchell said. "Hunters find that completely out of the realm of understanding."

In part to better understand the scope of the problem, the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies is developing a database that will include closer tracking of the number and nature of poaching incidents nationwide.

*In Nevada, officials said they suspect the strict regulation that has allowed the elk and deer population to flourish may also be driving up poaching. People who covet antlers as decorations or to sell on the market do not want to wait the decade or more it can take to get a tag, or permit, to hunt a single big elk or deer.

This year, 25,893 people requested an elk tag, but only 2,254 were issued, to the dismay of some hunter groups that have pushed for more tags. On average, the department receives 15 applicants for every bull elk tag.
*
Like other states, Nevada has a sparse staff of field game wardens who cover vast swaths of territory, making it easier for poachers to get away with their crimes. Often, poached animals are not found until hunters deep in the backcountry come across something suspicious, said Rob Buonamici, the law enforcement chief for the Nevada Department of Wildlife.

But several of the finds in the past couple of years have been close to growing, populated areas, leading him to suspect the culprits may have been newcomers taking advantage of easy targets close to home.

*The rise in poaching here has come as Nevada has managed to increase its elk and mule deer population greatly in recent years, and officials fear poaching will set back those efforts.
*
"Wildlife belongs to everybody," said Mr. Buonamici of the Nevada Wildlife Department. "If not for what the departments of fish and wildlife do and the sportsmen support through the fees they pay, the little old lady in L.A. would never be able to see a wildlife documentary because there would be no wildlife left."

Poaching also angers licensed hunters because it depletes the pool of animals they can potentially bag; by law they must carry away all the edible portions of their kill, which typically fill a freezer and provide steaks, burgers, jerky and the like for more than a year.

"I don't understand why they just go out there, kill it and leave it," said Lazo Pavlakis, 76, shaking his head as he stood triumphant over a bull elk he legally killed on the first day of an elk hunt here, 200 miles north of Las Vegas. He had waited 18 years for a permit, issued by annual lottery, to shoot a single elk, which he planned to consume with his grandsons.

"This is about once in a lifetime for me, so no, I don't appreciate hearing about elks killed and left out there," he said.

Up against the poachers are wardens like Joe Maslach, a 17-year veteran of the Nevada Wildlife Department and a devoted hunter himself.

On one recent tour, Mr. Maslach put 300 miles on his department-issued pickup truck, checking the documentation of hunters, making sure that legally set traps complied with regulations and responding to a call from a tipster of poached chukars, a popular game bird.

Discovering 26 of the birds shot dead and tucked into bushes, Mr. Weslach grew disgusted as he worked what in effect was a crime scene, photographing the position of the birds, measuring tracks and taking the birds' internal temperature to estimate when they were killed.

"These are the kind of guys you would like to take to jail," he said, stuffing the birds, frozen stiff in the 20-degree chill, into a bag.

But it was also clear hunters were not accustomed to seeing Mr. Maslach or other wardens. Several said they had never had their hunting documents checked or not for years.

In 35 years of hunting in Nevada, Fred Perdomo, who was legally tracking an elk this weekend, said he had encountered a game warden only twice - 12 years ago and on this trip.

"I heard about the poachings and could not believe it," he said. "It just doesn't make much sense."

Mr. Maslach checked his papers, and then Mr. Perdomo set off toward a stand of trees where an elk waited.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Yeap, you gotta hate them "trophy" bird poachers. :roll: 

It also said he "suspects", not that he KNOWS. Also remember, contrary to what you think, even DWR and government workers are HUMAN and have built in biased views. To take the word of any ONE person is unwise. I am sure you can find some more nonsense to post, but it matters not, since poaching was a MAJOR problem long BEFORE LE units were created, and would/will remain a problem even if every LE unit were done away with. People feel 'entitled', that is why people steal/cheat. I am guessing the people who rob banks can blame it on the economy, but in truth it comes down to being of low morals. Same goes for those who poach, to 'excuse' their behaviors and blame it one the LE system is nonsensical and a over-statement. Does big animals tempt people with marginal morals? You bet, but that does NOT mean you eliminate the temptation, you simply make the crime not worth the time!


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## Comrade Duck (Oct 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> *In Nevada, officials said they suspect the strict regulation that has allowed the elk and deer population to flourish may also be driving up poaching. People who covet antlers as decorations or to sell on the market do not want to wait the decade or more it can take to get a tag, or permit, to hunt a single big elk or deer.
> 
> This year, 25,893 people requested an elk tag, but only 2,254 were issued, to the dismay of some hunter groups that have pushed for more tags. On average, the department receives 15 applicants for every bull elk tag.
> *
> ...


What was the state of Nevada thinking? They should know better than to allow the elk and deer population to flourish. That's right. It's not the poachers fault that they shoot these animals. It's the state's fault for allowing the animals to exist in the first place. :roll:

What a stupid argument.

Shane


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Stupid argument? Huh? As soon as fish and wildlife departments across the country started managing for antlers instead of animals, they opened the door to all kinds of illegal poaching rings designed to profit from public animals. What is stupid is that guys like you and pro think that it is ok for state wildlife agencies to take away hunting privileges from the public while they openly admit that they are thereby increasing the number of animals illegally poached...talk about stupid.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Stupid argument? Huh? As soon as fish and wildlife departments across the country started managing for antlers instead of animals, they opened the door to all kinds of illegal poaching rings designed to profit from public animals. What is stupid is that guys like you and pro think that it is ok for state wildlife agencies to take away hunting privileges from the public while they openly admit that they are thereby increasing the number of animals illegally poached...talk about stupid.


Your right, lets give otc tags for ALL species, and open it up to year round hunting, that way no "privileges" would be "taken away", and NO animals would be poached! That wouldn't be stupid! :roll:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Your right, lets give otc tags for ALL species, and open it up to year round hunting, that way no "privileges" would be "taken away", and NO animals would be poached! That wouldn't be stupid! :roll:


 :roll: Quit being stupid and trying to put words in my mouth...you know **** well I am not saying that....again, "trophy" regulations are hurting the public in two ways: 1) limited opportunity 2) increased poaching. The sad thing is that the public loses opportunity by both!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

A little cranky this morning aren't we? What's the matter, did you get a good look in the mirror today? :wink: While it is tempting to go round and round with you today, I'll resist. Have fun, and try avoiding mirrors the rest of the day. :twisted:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Here is another example of "trophy hunters" gone bad :roll:

http://cbs13.com/pets/thrill.killings.d ... 33205.html

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

From the names of that county, It sounds like the backwoods locals. Dang them trophy hunters! :mrgreen:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Here is another example of "trophy hunters" gone bad
> 
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_8057419


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Thats a Cali occurrence..... I know right where Sutter Buttes are at. I know... no more reproducing...its these dang kids.


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## quakeycrazy (Sep 18, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> Vernal is a small town and therefore breeds small town mentality. In small towns all over the norm for many generations was to practice that kind of behavior when it comes to wildlife. I think poaching is a skill that is handed down from generation to generation and quite common across thye nation. The small town local boys have been doing it for ever and not geting caught because they know the land owners, know the land, and know how to get it done and not get caught. As long as there is "good ol' boys" in small towns there will be poaching going on. Not to say some of the transient workforce isn't guilty of the crime, but I think local folk are the majority of the offenders.


I agree 100%. People like that have their group of friends and family they do it with that they trust. They know that no one will talk..... Think about it, once a father or uncle shows that example the kids think it is normal and soon follow.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Feel the love, poaching is just as rampant today as it was yesteryears. The diffrence being is that you did not hear about every incident, and as i said in a previous reply, it was more about the meat. now you hear more about the antlers. We as sportsmen are striving toward a balance, we need manage for all hunters trophy, public land otc, and the occasional sportsman weekend warrior alike. For many year utah only catered to the public any bull any area system. then swung the diffrent direction to far the other way. some of the open areas got overrun by hunters,(uintahs). The only hope is that small steps/changes will be made to the current system to accomadate all hunters. The current system is a fairly good managment tool. Just needs to be a bit more flexable for the average joe hunter. Why does utah not move bulls off the LEs that are at or over capacity to the other areas? Like with the bighorn sheep? Might be a good explanation i am really just curious.  Starting to calm down about my utah bonus point price.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

weatherby posted this in another forum. I saw this on the news last night and was going to find the link today, by weatherby posted it first. 8)

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2539602

Now tell me again how it is the 'trophy hunters' fault again for the decline in hunter recruitment. :?

Notice also, I put up a link showing MANY deer being poached for 'fun', while wyo2ut then followed with an example where ONE deer was poached.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Now tell me again how it is the 'trophy hunters' fault again for the decline in hunter recruitment. :?
> 
> Notice also, I put up a link showing MANY deer being poached for 'fun', while wyo2ut then followed with an example where ONE deer was poached.


1) Really simple: if we don't give kids the opportunity to hunt, how can we get them interested in hunting. Take elk hunting as the perfect example...in my immediate area--Monroe, Utah--the closest hunting units are Monroe and Pahvant. Neither of these units offer kids general season rifle elk hunting.

2) Do you really want me to start posting numerous examples of where trophy animals are not only poached but also poached for big bucks?

Also, here is what we do know by way of fact...the number of verified poaching incidents are on the rise and the number of illegal trophy poaching rings are also on the rise...


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Poachers making a killing in West's oil, gas fields
Posted 2/15/2007 7:35 PM ET	
By Patrick O'Driscoll, USA TODAY
DENVER - Intense drilling for natural gas and oil in the Rocky Mountain West is triggering a rise in the illegal killing of elk, deer and other "trophy" game because new roads make remote areas accessible in winter, wildlife managers report.
Parts of Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico are flooded with crews working thousands of well sites and drill rigs. The result: more people among wildlife herds.

"The road densities in these areas have quadrupled. And they keep them plowed in winter," says Dave Hays, a warden in southwestern Wyoming for the state Game and Fish Department. "They see all these big game right there, in places where maybe you never see anybody for 30 miles, and they think, 'Why not?' "

Statistics on the illegal killing of game, or poaching, are hard to tally because most states track only prosecutions. Authorities in Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico say wardens are finding more headless carcasses, a sign of killings solely for trophies.

More poaching "is something we have noticed as more and more oil and gas exploration and drilling goes on," says Dan Williams of the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish. "We're constantly out there, investigating cases."

Poaching occurs year-round in every state, but winter is the most vulnerable time in the interior West. Snow drives herds from higher elevations to once-remote valleys that now are crisscrossed with thousands of miles of roads.

Hays and wardens in other states say the poaching isn't just by energy company workers. Easier road access attracts opportunists seeking trophies for the wall.

Drill-rig worker Joseph Chapman, 36, of Provo, Utah, pleaded guilty this month to felony charges for killing a big-racked mule deer in northwest Colorado last Thanksgiving. Under a proposed plea bargain, he could be fined up to $100,000. He also could lose hunting privileges for a year to life here and in 23 other states that cooperate in tracking and prosecuting poachers.

Hays says the cases wildlife officials investigate are only a fraction of the losses.

*"The biggest problem is poaching for economic gain to feed the black market (with) trophy elk and mule deer heads, those kinds of things," says Steve Torbic of the National Wildlife Federation.

Wyoming Game and Fish reports that unlicensed hunting and fishing infractions in 2005 doubled to more than 880 from a decade earlier. Big-game violations were up 58%,* with most of the growth during the recent oil-and-gas boom.

Wardens are trying to fight back:

•Wyoming keeps a DNA database for several states with tissue from headless carcasses. States can compare those genetic samples with DNA from trophy heads and antlers taken from suspected poachers. Wyoming's most intense drilling areas, in the western half of the state, are home to an estimated 100,000 deer, 100,000 pronghorn antelope, and elk, moose and other wild species.

•Colorado uses unmarked vehicles and plainclothes wardens in its winter-range patrols. The state also hired a former energy company staffer to work with the oil and gas firms on wildlife. Northwestern Colorado, where most of the new drilling takes place, has the state's two largest elk herds.

•New Mexico conducts night flights in the northwest part of the state to seek poachers who "spotlight" elk and deer after dark. Game decoys are deployed to lure illegal hunters.

The energy boom brings more people and roads into wildlife habitat. Of the 55,000 square miles of oil and gas leases on federal lands in the West, more than 43,000 are in Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah. The area is dotted with thousands of well sites.

"We haven't seen the tip of the iceberg," says Ron Velarde, northwest manager for the Colorado Division of Wildlife. "I've seen estimates of 50,000 more gas wells."

Energy companies work to prevent poaching. They brief workers on the laws and bar guns from worksites and employee vehicles. EnCana, a major natural gas firm operating in northwestern Colorado, conducts random searches with gun-sniffing dogs. "It's just another way of telling all the workforce that we're very serious about no weapons on our locations," says Darrin Henke of EnCana.

The company also contributes to Colorado's Operation Game Thief, which rewards cash to tipsters who report poachers. Similar programs are in virtually every state.

"A lot of our guys love to hunt and fish," says Rick Robitaille of Anadarko Petroleum. "They're pretty upset when somebody does something wrong themselves."


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

soules2007 said:


> Why does utah not move bulls off the LEs that are at or over capacity to the other areas? Like with the bighorn sheep? Might be a good explanation i am really just curious.


You made me curious too? Anyone?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> soules2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Why does utah not move bulls off the LEs that are at or over capacity to the other areas? Like with the bighorn sheep? Might be a good explanation i am really just curious.
> ...


It is not cost effective, nor is it needed. Most units are at/near/over capacity for elk already. Elk are fairly easy to 'grow' as well, bighorns are NOT. I believe simply allowing MORE elk to be harvested where they are in excess is a better option, IMHO. Utah has in the past transplanted elk to other states like Arkansas, Pa., Kentucky to help jump start elk herds there. But, I see no reason to re-transplant elk from one part of Utah to another.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

You know I think if wyo2utah and pro sat down face to face, and shared an Ice cold budweiser, or Mountain Dew you guys would probably see eye to eye.

*You'll ride a black tornado cross the western sky, bull dog the mississippi, pin it's ear down flat long before you take this cowboys hat*.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> You know I think if wyo2utah and pro sat down face to face, and shared an Ice cold budweiser, or Mountain Dew you guys would probably see eye to eye.
> 
> *You'll ride a black tornado cross the western sky, bull dog the mississippi, pin it's ear down flat long before you take this cowboys hat*.


1)You are probably right. :shock:

2)Do you even own a 'cowboy hat'? :?


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> 2)Do you even own a 'cowboy hat'?


I have 2. A straw for the summer and a 5x Beaver creek hat company, for the great outdoors.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> I have 2. A straw for the summer and a 5x Beaver creek hat company, for the great outdoors.


If you wear a 5X beaver, it is mandatory you MUST wear Wranglers (nutthuggers) at the same time, anything else would be 'cityfied'. 8)


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> If you wear a 5X beaver, it is mandatory you MUST wear Wranglers (nutthuggers) at the same time, anything else would be 'cityfied'.


I would but the never did agree with me. :mrgreen: **** things would let me move the way I'd prefer to move.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Utah has in the past transplanted elk to other states like Arkansas, Pa., Kentucky to help jump start elk herds there.


For the record this comes right off the Arkansas fish and game site.

Arkansas Elk

Elk became extinct through over hunting, natural mortality and shrinkage of suitable grazing land. In 1981, through the efforts of Hilary Jones and other Newton County residents, the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission, initiated an elk restoration project for the Ozark Mountains. Between 1981 and 1985, 112 elk from Colorado and Nebraska were released at five sites near Pruitt in Newton County. These sites were on or adjacent to the Buffalo National River where grassy meadows provide an ideal habitat for the elk. Since that time, the herd has grown to approximately 450 and are found all along the river.....

Just clarifing the facts of the above qoute before someone on here acuses Pro of distorting them. :wink:

Probally the only time I will ever get to set him straight on his facts. :lol:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

You may want to do a little more 'research' on it. I also forgot to include Nevada, where we traded elk for big horns. Funny part of the story was the elk were released in Nevada near a reservation, the elk came onto the res in the winter, the indians caught them and sold them to high fence farms. :shock: Utah has exchanged elk for turkeys as well. Those who draw a turkey tag this spring can thank the elk for the turkeys they chase! 8)


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I was refering to the elk going to Arkansas, don't doubt that Utah sends them to other states.

I believe Arkansas traded turkeys as part of the deal for their elk with Colorado.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> I was refering to the elk going to Arkansas, don't doubt that Utah sends them to other states.
> 
> I believe Arkansas traded turkeys as part of the deal for their elk with Colorado.


I swear we shipped so elk off the Oquirrh's to Arkansas, but I may be mistaken. Way to keep me in line! 8)


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Mojo1 said:
> 
> 
> > I was refering to the elk going to Arkansas, don't doubt that Utah sends them to other states.
> ...


I know the ones we helped procure (I helped net some Turkeys to trade) were from Colorado; can't speak for the others, just knew what the web site said. 8)


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I think maybe I should have titled this post "Pro vs wyo2ut" Never thought it would go to six pages.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

Pro back 1988/1989 was when the heaston was the preimere in the state, i remeber somthing about a xfer of animals, Thanks for the info. The article you posted was good, all physical activites for kids is suffering from the blasted video games, and forums,  argue like brothers


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> You know I think if wyo2utah and pro sat down face to face, and shared an Ice cold budweiser, or Mountain Dew you guys would probably see eye to eye.


I don't know if we would see eye to eye, but I think we could have a good conversation and be amiable.

Also, FWIW, sometimes transplanting an animal is only effective if the new environment is capable of sustaining that animal. The problem with transplanting animals from one unit--a unit with an abundance of animals--to another unit--a unit lacking in animals--is that sometimes the new unit also lacks sufficient habitat or has some other limiting factor that is keeping numbers down. So, instead of simply transplanting animals to bulk a population, it is important that wildlife managers know what is/are the limiting factor(s) for the population. Otherwise, the transplant will ultimately not always be productive...


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## for fun (Sep 13, 2007)

It was Kentucky and we received turkeys. So pro was close.

I read an article that wyoming convicted a couple oil rig workers of poaching, but to be honest it could be anyone who is doing it. I don't think we can blame anyone without proof.


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

The unit i was talking mostly about was the north slope. the late wyo hunts in the early 90s combine with increased pressure from becoming one of the few any bull areas in the state. This area has had a rough time growing back the heards it has had in the past. I think repopulating the herd would really be a boost in the arm for the area. And this would also give hunters that were unable to go "way back in" at least an opp to see an animal. And let this any bull area become a viable hunting option. But i do understand the argument of cost effectivness.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

soules2007, one problem with a transplant to the north slope is Wyoming, they have 'deperdation' hunts on their side of the border. The landowners and that side do NOT want more elk. So, Utah could transplant more elk up there, then the Wyoming boys would have more Utah elk to kill. :shock: :wink: 

Isn't Kentucky/Arkansas off of the same family tree, one branched? That may be why I mixed them up.  :mrgreen:


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

I have heard about that hunt, 
i have also heard that utah and wyoming have not played well in regards to mule deer and elk in that area. I had hoped they had worked out their diffrences. Pro you know some of the primos guys have you watched the new dvd?


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