# wasatch elk unit getting pounded!!!!



## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

i was up at currant creek and the strawberry valley area this week watching deer. and was blown away buy the amount of cow elk that was being taken off the mountain. i also seen very few elk compared to my usual november deer scouting trips.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

and also do you think the dwr gave out an ungodley amount of cow elk tags this year. to make up for the money they lost from having to cut back general deer tags. they have to make the money up somewhere right.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

What kind of cow numbers did you actually see being taken off the mountain?


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## blazingsaddle (Mar 11, 2008)

I think the unit can handle a lot of elk being killed. There are more than enough elk on the Wasatch. IMHO


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

all in all it was twenty elk out of the one canyon. the elk looked tired from being chased around for 4 months straight some even wounded. i agree the unit could probably benefitted from thining the herd a little. but it looks like they may have overdone it on this unit like they have done on other units in the past


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

hazmat said:


> and also do you think the dwr gave out an ungodley amount of cow elk tags this year. to make up for the money they lost from having to cut back general deer tags. they have to make the money up somewhere right.


No. The DWR issued (approved by the RAC's and passed by the Wildlife Board) so many cow tags on the Wasatch because the elk population is way over objective on the Wasatch unit and either we can issue them to hunters or they will be killed by other means such as ranchers taking things into thier own hands, depredation tags, or emergency means.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

It makes me sick...

Out of the last 18 years, I've been on the Wasatch LE elk hunts 15 of those years...

This year was my last for a while, I'm heading to different units now.. Seen enough.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> It makes me sick...
> 
> Out of the last 18 years, I've been on the Wasatch LE elk hunts 15 of those years...
> 
> This year was my last for a while, I'm heading to different units now.. Seen enough.


Sweet, more opportunity for me.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

Well considering the elk herd is WAY over objective, and the deer herd is not, I have absolutely no problem with them taking more elk.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Good! Glad to see the hunters are having a successful time bringing home the bacon...errrr....wapiti!


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

I saw plenty of elk up in those areas you are talking about. I'd say I saw way too many elk for the area I was watching. But it doesn't matter what I saw as it isn't a large enough sample to be statistically relevant.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

USMARINEhuntinfool said:


> Well considering the elk herd is WAY over objective, and the deer herd is not, I have absolutely no problem with them taking more elk.


i did see alot more deer this year compared to the last two years


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I saw more elk, and bigger bulls up where i hunt this year than I have in a long time. They aren't hurting by any means.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

martymcfly73 said:


> I saw more elk, and bigger bulls up where i hunt this year than I have in a long time. They aren't hurting by any means.


i have to disagree when they give out 3,960 cow tags and 639 bull tags for one l/e unit it is going to have an effect for years to come. granted it is a big unit but there will be effects for good or bad.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Unlimited Elk Tags Limited Archery Deer Tags. What in THE HELL DON"T PEOPLE understand.
Some ELK units will go the way of some Deer Units! Knuckle Heads!!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The Nebo was a dang GOOD elk unit a few short years ago,,,

Go read those threads from 2-3 years ago, I pointed out the direction
that was heading, and were it ultimately is now.............

The Wasatch unit is quickly headed down the same road.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

there are some people who will always be mad when other hunters have success...


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Seemed to me to be just right amount of hunting...Lots of elk seen...lots of success.....lots of opportunity for next year ( if the wolves don't eat them all)


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## ARROWHNTR (Dec 11, 2008)

They issued 3100 cow tags last year and everyone said they were going to kill all the elk on the unit, but the heard numbers increased, the heard is over objective and needs to be managed. Luckily they are giving sportsman the oportunity to do it rather then ranchers and the DWR killing them. The wasatch is a big unit and can handle a lot of bull and cow tags.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

glad to see the division issue some tags where hunters have a decent chance at bein successful


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I dont get people on this site... we have people continually posting that we need to kill more elk so less competition will let the deer come back. Now we have people complaining we are killing too many elk

Which is it? Killing too many or not enough elk? Do we care more about elk than deer?


-DallanC


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

I do...could care less about the deer. I haven't hunted deer in 10 years. But, if we become complacent with one species, how long will it take before every opportunity is gone?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> The Nebo was a dang GOOD elk unit a few short years ago,,,
> 
> Go read those threads from 2-3 years ago, I pointed out the direction
> that was heading, and were it ultimately is now.............
> ...





hazmat said:


> martymcfly73 said:
> 
> 
> > I saw more elk, and bigger bulls up where i hunt this year than I have in a long time. They aren't hurting by any means.
> ...


I guess this all depends on what your measuring stick is. If you are used to seeing the unit over objective on population and a lot more/older bulls that are supposed to on the unit then yes you may be disappointed by what things look like when they are at objective. If you look at too many animals as "this is what it's supposed to be" and the population at objective as "there isn't much around" then yes you will be disappointed.

But we can't automatically change population objectives or harvest objectives simply because a few hunters like the feast they are seeing. It takes a change to the management plan to do that and that management plan needs to backed by sound science that says those new population levels are not only sustainable but can be tolerated by all interests. Now if your perspective is "there is a lot of elk but the unit is over objective" then seeing cows coming out in the back of trucks and seeing less elk won't be such a disappointment.

There is a reason why the population objectives are what they are and a reason the harvest objectives are what they are. I'm not sure what else can be said to help folks understand that when they are over objective we have to increase tags to bring them down.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

DallanC said:


> I dont get people on this site... we have people continually posting that we need to kill more elk so less competition will let the deer come back. Now we have people complaining we are killing too many elk
> 
> Which is it? Killing too many or not enough elk? Do we care more about elk than deer?
> 
> -DallanC


This isn't confined to this site. This is a larger epidemic that is well represented on this site.


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

Those of you who are not seeing elk, I don't know what to tell you. I have only hunted that unit the last 2 years, and I have NEVER seen so many elk in only a few days int he field. There are tons of cows and tons of calves. I don't think there is a problem with the numbers or quality. I hunted with a buddy on his LE hunt and we had 7 bulls we were after that would all break the 350 mark. Then there were about 25-30 that were in the 300-350 range. If that's not good enough then maybe you need to re think this hunting idea and just buy a "quality bull" from a ranch. A 350 bull is still a big freaking elk!!!

I just hope the guys chasing cows now leave some for me when December rolls around.

Oh, by the way, we saw way more deer this year too!!


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

you hunted the unit before most of the cow tags were issued. i had no problem seeing elk i dont think anyone stated they couldnt find elk. the observation i noted was i was seeing alot of elk hit the pay dirt. and just got back again this weekend and seen 3 bruiser bulls and a whole herd of cows get wiped out. just giving the at home computer guys an update on the unit and the observations i noticed while up there. so if you dont like it dont read let alone dont post on the subject bitcchin and moaning about how the website is crap.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the problem.
4,000 antler less rifle permits.
UNLIMITED archery permits, spike / cow.
700 LE big bull tags.
A TON of spike only tags, rifle & muzzle loader.

Even with an 'over objective' elk herd, Non stop hunting from August thru January.
And almost as many permits as their are TOTAL ELK....
Just too much, IMHO.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> Here's the problem.
> 4,000 antler less rifle permits.
> UNLIMITED archery permits, spike / cow.
> 700 LE big bull tags.
> ...


Here are the numbers from the last few years and the unlimited archery permits have been there for all of them and so have the spike only muzzy and rifle hunters in almost the exact same numbers. The season dates have been the same for several years as well and despite all of this we can't knock the numbers down.

Unit objective is 5050 animals.

Post hunt population 2009 = 5800 elk
Cow tags issued in 2010 = 1395 tags
Post hunt population 2010 = 7700 elk (with 1400 tags the population went up 32%)
Cow tags issued in 2011 = 2020 tags
Post hunt population 2011 = 7600 elk (with 2000 tags the population only decreased slightly)
Cow tags issued in 2012 = 4000 tags 
Post hunt population in 2012 = We'll see

LE Bull tags issued 2011 = 587
LE Bull tags issued in 2012 = 632

The 3 year average on age objective is 6.7 and the objective 5.5-6.0

In a few years the bulls will be able to sustain even more harvest than they are now without losing age of harvest because the unit is so over objective now on population that no doubt we''l have extra bulls running around.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Good! They need to kill more! May be the deer will have a fighting chance now. What's the matter Goofy? fraid you'll have to spend more than two days and actually HUNT for an elk out there now? Waaa!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Good! They need to kill more! May be the deer will have a fighting chance now. What's the matter Goofy? fraid you'll have to spend more than two days and actually HUNT for an elk out there now? Waaa!


Now that you have drawn your LE tag for the area lets just say f-it up?


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

All this, the entire list you have posted here is the sum of 2 ways of counting. Hardly a scientific way of measuring anything. One year, or count they may fly with a fix'd wing plane. The next time might be helocopter.... Airplane you get lower numbers, helocopter you get higher numbers! It all depends of what count method they do... Can you say COOKING the books!



bullsnot said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > Here's the problem.
> ...


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

TAK said:


> All this, the entire list you have posted here is the sum of 2 ways of counting. Hardly a scientific way of measuring anything. One year, or count they may fly with a fix'd wing plane. The next time might be helocopter.... Airplane you get lower numbers, helocopter you get higher numbers! It all depends of what count method they do... Can you say COOKING the books!


They fly every 3 years by a combination of fixed wing and helicopter. The 2 years in the middle are done on the ground along with harvest and other data such as calf recruitment. It goes through the same cycle every 3 years.

It's the best we've got and can afford and has proven to be very effective. It's easy to criticize I suppose but when they do these classifications they ASK that convservation orgs tag along to vouch for what is being done and to date I have not heard one organization come out and say that the ride along or fly along that they did with the division was junk science.

I sincerely invite you to do a ride along, see what they do, see how difficult it really is, and understand what is being done. PM me and I will get you set up. I've done both air and ground ride alongs, I've spent many hours discussing these issues with biologists and I am convinced that anyone that actually sees the process and understands what is happening and why its happening would have a very hard time giving much legitimate criticism.

My 2 pennies.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

bullsnot said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> > All this, the entire list you have posted here is the sum of 2 ways of counting. Hardly a scientific way of measuring anything. One year, or count they may fly with a fix'd wing plane. The next time might be helocopter.... Airplane you get lower numbers, helocopter you get higher numbers! It all depends of what count method they do... Can you say COOKING the books!
> ...


Well put Mr. Bullsnot...


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

TAK said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > Good! They need to kill more! May be the deer will have a fighting chance now. What's the matter Goofy? fraid you'll have to spend more than two days and actually HUNT for an elk out there now? Waaa!
> ...


Not at all. That area is WAY over populated with elk as are most all the units. That's one of the big reasons the deer aren't doing well. Tell me to my face deer aren't effected by elk numbers and I'll call BS. they are, and it's evident in every area. There just needs to be balance, that's all...


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

martymcfly73 said:


> I saw more elk, and bigger bulls up where i hunt this year than I have in a long time. They aren't hurting by any means.


If this is the area where I made friends with that moose, I agree. There were some respectable bulls up there this year.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

I was not aware of a ground count as you speak of... I would be interested in how they would go about that???
So how are numbers diff between the plane and helicoper? 
IMO if you wanted to have a count you would do it by helicopter, each year and keep everything as close as possible. 


bullsnot said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> > All this, the entire list you have posted here is the sum of 2 ways of counting. Hardly a scientific way of measuring anything. One year, or count they may fly with a fix'd wing plane. The next time might be helocopter.... Airplane you get lower numbers, helocopter you get higher numbers! It all depends of what count method they do... Can you say COOKING the books!
> ...


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## Levy (Oct 2, 2007)

> Not at all. That area is WAY over populated with elk as are most all the units. That's one of the big reasons the deer aren't doing well. Tell me to my face deer aren't effected by elk numbers and I'll call BS. they are, and it's evident in every area. There just needs to be balance, that's all...


Rare is the case where elk are directly affecting deer populations. Too many other variables(habitat, winter, predation, etc.)in each of our state's units to pin the decline of deer on Elk. To say it is a big reason for mule deer decline is absolutely false.

Tom Keegan, Wildlife Manager with the Idaho Department of Fish and Game, said that making a statement that elk are responsible for mule deer declines would not be accurate because some mule deer populations have declined in the absence of elk. And Keegan said, "Other deer populations have grown and responded well in conjunction with growing elk herds.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

90redryder said:


> martymcfly73 said:
> 
> 
> > I saw more elk, and bigger bulls up where i hunt this year than I have in a long time. They aren't hurting by any means.
> ...


Yep and a couple others in that area.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

They knocked the elk numbers WAAAAY down on Fishlake, TWICE!
Deer numbers did not rebound......Result was low elk AND deer population.

I've watched the same thing with mountain lions.....
Timpanogos and Cascade, all out war on cats in the name of ' saving the bighorns'..
The sheep continue to die off even with 90% of the lions gone,
The result, very few lions, AND very few sheep...

I don't believe that killing off all these elk will help the deer herd much on the Wasatch,
We will just simply have less elk.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> They knocked the elk numbers WAAAAY down on Fishlake, TWICE!
> Deer numbers did not rebound......Result was low elk AND deer population.
> 
> I've watched the same thing with mountain lions.....
> ...


That's because its not just because of lions getting the sheep. Now I know your full of BS. Ask anyone in the DWR the sheep got sick from domestic goats. Lions are a small part of their problem.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Mcfly, your an idiot.

Before the domestic sheep problems, they were blaming
the lions for the big horns stunted herd growth on the Nebo/Timp/cascade.

Guess who took 40+ cats off these units ?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Mcfly, your an idiot.
> 
> Before the domestic sheep problems, they were blaming
> the lions for the big horns stunted herd growth on the Nebo/Timp/cascade.
> ...


I'm guessing it would be the all glorious Goofy? I'm disappointed in you. You didn't send me a PM telling me I'm a ****ING idiot this time. Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back hero.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Goof, maybe you should post some more hero shots for us.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Heck , I'm no hero Mcfly.
Just a guy who loves to hunt and take pictures, don't mind sharing them either.

Here's a picture right down your alley Mcfly. 
4 Years ago, this cat was on G mountain eating elk,, that YOU watch.
Took this picture right above the Kiwanis park, bet you recognize the spot.
So, in a funny way, YOU kinda owe me for 'larger' elk herd you
enjoy in your urban backyard 
Because, if I wouldn't have let this guy shoot this cat,
half them elk YOUR watching would be a cat turd :!: 
[attachment=0:3j0vq3f0]100_3125a.jpg[/attachment:3j0vq3f0]


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Heck , I'm no hero Mcfly.
> Just a guy who loves to hunt and take pictures, don't mind sharing them either.
> 
> Here's a picture right down your alley Mcfly.
> ...


I am eternally grateful. Thank you.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Back on topic:

One place the Wasatch elk ARE NOT getting pounded is the Diamond fork unit.

The big herds of cows that used to winter there are no more.....

A few bulls in normal winter grounds, But, for the 3rd year in a row, no cows.

Last year a FEW moved in for the later hunt, after it snowed..
But even then, that hunt was still low success..Big time changes there.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

TAK said:


> All this, the entire list you have posted here is the sum of 2 ways of counting. Hardly a scientific way of measuring anything. One year, or count they may fly with a fix'd wing plane. The next time might be helocopter.... Airplane you get lower numbers, helocopter you get higher numbers! It all depends of what count method they do... Can you say COOKING the books!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


counting elk numbers is definantly a difficult task. as far as population numbers there is no way they are 100% accurate. i had a dwr biologist tell me the kamas unit was way over population for elk i tried my best to not laugh about it . as far as the wasatch the herd was over populated and all i am saying is there definantly filling tags on the unit this year. and aslo take into consideration all of the cwmu's and private property herds. the main one being the wolf creek ranch. i have been on this non hunted reserve during the elk rut and the amount of animals that summer range that mountain and winter range on farmers fields is unbelivable. anyway just got back from currant creek tons of people, seen some elk, tons of deer and great fishing.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

o-|| o-|| o-|| More doom and gloom from Goofy elk. Speaking of lion harvest goofy. I have personally seen more deer in one harvest objective area now that more mountain lions have been harvested.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> o-|| o-|| o-|| More doom and gloom from Goofy elk. Speaking of lion harvest goofy. I have personally seen more deer in one harvest objective area now that more mountain lions have been harvested.


Nope Yote, No ' doom & gloom ' , Just pointing out what's going down.

And were it's heading, if it continues.

The Wasatch elk unit is changing, Just as the Nebo unit did, Same road.
Will end with the same result.

And yes, Lion populations are WAY down on most HO units, should help the deer.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Mcfly, your an idiot.
> 
> Before the domestic sheep problems, they were blaming
> the lions for the big horns stunted herd growth on the Nebo/Timp/cascade.
> ...


Hey, Mcfly is not an idiot. He went to high school for 6 years.  (geeze, I never get tired of that joke)

No name calling please.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > Mcfly, your an idiot.
> ...


It wasn't 6 years I graduated when I was 21. :grin:


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Will you two Facebook Friend each other and take your tiff elsewhere.

Now back to hunting. Based on what I saw this year lots of elk. I will put my trust in the DWR.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

TAK said:


> I was not aware of a ground count as you speak of... I would be interested in how they would go about that???
> So how are numbers diff between the plane and helicoper?
> IMO if you wanted to have a count you would do it by helicopter, each year and keep everything as close as possible.


Sorry my post was a tad misleading. They do air counts every 3 years as I mentioned. The use a combination of plane and helicopter. The fixed wing is used in more open areas and is effective in the winter time in open areas and fairly smooth terrain. I've done this before surveying antelope and you'd be surprised how much wildlife you can see from a fixed aircraft. You can cover a lot more ground with a fixed wing aircraft in small time frame. A helicopter is used in rougher and more condensed terrain.

The 2 years in between there are not necessarily population counts done on the ground but rather classifications which is accomplished by doing some counting. They use the data to determine bull:cow ratios, calf:cow ratios, etc. With this data along with harvest data and the actual count done every 3 years it is very easy to determine population numbers. It is a formula that is used by all Western states to determine elk popluations. It is a complex formula based on things like understanding by your cow to calf ratio if your population is growing, shrinking or staying stagnant. Harvest and bull:cow ratios will tell you a lot as well. The bios also look at and are very concerned about the age of bulls on a unit as well. They will also tell you that a lot of what determines the number of bull tags you issue is based on what your calf crop was several years ago.

I hope that clarifies.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well, made the trip north yesterday and spent it looking around Springville and
Hobble Creek. went up both the left and right hand forks, plus glassed all the
wintering area faces til my eyes gave out.........pretty disappointing, elk wise.

I'd heard a lot of elk had moved in, that's why I went to see, hoping maybe 
that's were all the missing Diamond fork herd ended up.......Notta.........

While YES there's a decent number of elk wintering there, still not as many as
years passed. I glassed over 250 cows and calves, still short of the 400 in the past.

Most shocking is the lack of wintering bulls, WAAAAY down, first time ever going
into these areas and not seeing ONE SINGLE 6 point! really?

3-4 years ago, same areas, A guy could easily see 20+ decent bulls....some days 30+..


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> They knocked the elk numbers WAAAAY down on Fishlake, TWICE!
> Deer numbers did not rebound......Result was low elk AND deer population.
> 
> I've watched the same thing with mountain lions.....
> ...


Wondered if anyone had a memory. We saw this on the manti as well. It was to the point the Wasatch is now, so we opened the cow flood gate, ramped up the draw, and gave tags to every banquet and group known to mankind. Now the Manti is better than open bull, but no where near where it was. Plus, there still are no deer on the manti. You guys that want to kill all the elk to grow the deer, are gonna end up hunting squirels in the fall because you will have neither.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> While YES there's a decent number of elk wintering there, still not as many as
> years passed. I glassed over 250 cows and calves, still short of the 400 in the past.
> 
> Most shocking is the lack of wintering bulls, WAAAAY down, first time ever going
> ...


So, you mean it sucks that some lucky hunters were able to draw cow and bull tags and harvest those animals? I think it's great...! Are you just a wildlife watcher or a hunter? Come on...the reason there are less animals is because people were able to hunt and kill them...! Good on 'em!


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## 00jason00 (Jan 7, 2013)

We were up on the border of Bandanna Ranch just above Red Creek Res. and saw an abundance of deer. There were a good number of decent bucks around as well. Lots of little 2 points but what seemed like an overabundance of does. It was bad enough that it was **** near hard not to hit them on the sleds.


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