# AR15



## joesn68 (Aug 4, 2009)

I am thinking about getting an AR15 chambered in .223/5.56. I am wondering if anyone has tried loading a mag alternately with .223 then a 5.56 then .223 etc. until the mag is full and then fired said mag? Or am I missing something when they are chambered for both?Just curious.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

.223 Rem is the civilian designation for the 5.56 NATO round. Some years back the military named / re-named all of their ammunition after the international / NATO standard so as to prevent confusion. So they are the same thing pretty much.
Although the 5.56 generally has a heavier bullet than the .223. But chamber dimensions are supposedly the same. 
I have heard that the pressures are slightly different for the two different designations though. But after speaking to countless people, the rounds are completely interchangeable.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

Bax* said:


> But after speaking to countless people, the rounds are completely interchangeable.


Mostly. Just check with your manufacturer to make sure. Because 5.56 are typically quite a bit hotter than standard .223 you should be sure your .223 is able to shoot 5.56. Most bold action .223's tend not to like 5.56. Anything that can shoot 5.56 should be able to shoot .223 without problem, but not always the opposite.

You'd never be able to tell a difference with alternating .223/5.56 in an AR-15.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

apollosmith said:


> Mostly. Just check with your manufacturer to make sure. Because 5.56 are typically quite a bit hotter than standard .223 you should be sure your .223 is able to shoot 5.56. Most bold action .223's tend not to like 5.56. Anything that can shoot 5.56 should be able to shoot .223 without problem, but not always the opposite.
> 
> You'd never be able to tell a difference with alternating .223/5.56 in an AR-15.


Good point APOLLOSMITH
I dont think you'll have much problem shooting the rounds out of your AR, but I have heard of some problems in bolts too. I used to have a Mini-14 before I got my AR and the Mini-14 hated 5.56s. It wouldnt group worth a darn, but the AR seems to do ok with them.

Let us know what kind of AR you decide on. There sure are a lot of different configurations available.


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## joesn68 (Aug 4, 2009)

I haven't decided yet. I have to go TDY for a while and will purchase when I get back. The brands I am considering are Colt, Bushmaster, and Rock River.Probably the m4 version but I am open for suggestions.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I think that all are good options there. I would say Rock River would be the first choice for me out of the ones you listed. Les Baer makes a FANTASTIC AR-15 but they are a little more expensive.

I own a hunting version of the AR so I cant give many suggestions for an M4 configuration, but I know there are other guys on the forum that can help with that.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

joesn68 said:


> The brands I am considering are Colt, Bushmaster, and Rock River.Probably the m4 version but I am open for suggestions.


Good man! You can't go wrong with those. I have the Bushmaster Patrolman's M4 and love it. It shoots very good and is very well built. I've tricked it out just a bit.


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## joesn68 (Aug 4, 2009)

Very nice! That is eventually the look i am going for.
On your optics, can you sight through if you choose not to use the sight?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

The way I understand it, the 223 and the 5.56 have the same external dimensions, however, the 5.56 has different internal dimensions designed to better handle the higher NATO standard pressures. The 5.56 also has a longer leade (freebore) to also reduce pressures and is usually given a faster rifling rate to stabilize heavier (longer) bullets. To add to the confusion, there is also the Wilde chamber specs that are a compromise between the 223 and the 5.56, and are said to give satisfactory results with both rounds. Most of the civilian rifles that are marked .223/5.56 are in fact chambered to the Wilde specifications.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

joesn68 said:


> Very nice! That is eventually the look i am going for.
> On your optics, can you sight through if you choose not to use the sight?


The optic is a 1X red dot, so magnification is not an issue, but I do not have it yet set up to use the iron sites as a back-up through the optic (this is often called co-witnessing). An Eotech is in my future at some point and I will then get a rear back up iron site (BUIS) that lines up with the front site that can be used as a backup in case of optic failure or preference.


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## buggsz24 (Mar 18, 2008)

The 5.56 and the .223 do not have the same external dimensions. The SAAMI round (.223) have a tighter throat and are rated for much higher pressures, whereas the 5.56 has a larger throat designed to increase cycle operation reliability. 

If your purchasing a new AR your 95%+ going to be buying a rifle that is designed to shoot both rounds, the rock river you were looking at calls this a wylde chamber. Both shoot equally well and other than a difference in muzzle velocity your won't see a difference.


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## joesn68 (Aug 4, 2009)

So I will be good to go on either ammo type. Now the question is, does anyone have opinions on brand (pro or con) of ammo. Price, quality, dependablity all factored in.


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## joesn68 (Aug 4, 2009)

Buggsz24,
I got a friend at work who is a longhorn fan. We razz each other all the time. When I saw your avatar I had to razz ya to. 
I am from OK.


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## buggsz24 (Mar 18, 2008)

I'm actually going to watch OU play in about two weeks, I'm going to hate every moment of it.  

Good to go on either ammo type.

I personally own a Rock River, JP, Robinson Doublestar and a Sig. All of them shoot both the .223/5.56 and I have no complaints about any of them, all do something just a little different and each has its own benefit/drawback.

Cost difference isn't really going to determine reliability or accuracy (to some extent), most of the difference in cost is due to accessories added above and beyond the standard M4 or A2 configuration. 

My personal favorite is currently a Robinson XCR-L SBR, gas piston drive so almost no cleaning or maint. required, my most accurate is a JP custom build up and my best performance/cost rifle is my Rock River Entry Tactical. Really any brand name manufacturer won't leave you disappointed.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

joesn68 said:


> So I will be good to go on either ammo type. Now the question is, does anyone have opinions on brand (pro or con) of ammo. Price, quality, dependablity all factored in.


Any decent AR-15 will function just fine with just about any ammo you feed it. Avoid the very old, lacquered Wolf ammo as it can cause some issues. The new Wolf (and other manufacturers) steel cased ammo should be just fine, though some think it can wear out the extractor faster. I'm rather partial to 55 grain Federal American Eagle ammo having shot several thousand rounds of it without issue.

Check http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=210 for loads of details on AR-15 ammo and http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.22 ... _5.56x45mm for prices.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

apollosmith said:


> Any decent AR-15 will function just fine with just about any ammo you feed it. Avoid the very old, lacquered Wolf ammo as it can cause some issues. The new Wolf (and other manufacturers) steel cased ammo should be just fine, though some think it can wear out the extractor faster. I'm rather partial to 55 grain Federal American Eagle ammo having shot several thousand rounds of it without issue.


VERY good advice here. The Wolf ammo does shoot pretty well, but it it SOOOOOOO dirty! It will take you forever to clean up after you shoot that crap. Not only is it very dirty, but the lacquer coating that they put on it (you can tell it has lacquer by the little red ring around the base of the bullet where it meets the casing) builds up and needs a very aggressive solvent to get it off.
I also like the 55 gr American Eagle ammo. Its pretty fair in price, and shoots well. PMC also makes a fair bullet, and they are comprably priced. But I would go with the American Eagle first.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

> I am wondering if anyone has tried loading a mag alternately with .223 then a 5.56 then .223 etc. until the mag is full and then fired said mag?


Why would you do that?
Do you mean for self defense to alternate the effects of M193 55-gr FMJ ball ammo and soft nosed commercial varmint ammo of the same weight? Or different weights like 62-gr M855 and some other commercial .223 weight?

They both will chamber and fire just fine in a normal AR15, but as distance increases point-of-impact (POI) will likely be different, as well as trajectory to some degree.
This is because M193 is loaded hotter and has more velocity. The bullet itself might cause a different barrel vibration that might alter POI.

Here are some of my results in chronographing both types in 2 ARs:

*Remington/UMC 55-gr MC* (FMJ) Wal-Mart Value Pack L223R3 (loaded to SAAMI-spec .223 - not 5.56 pressure)
20" - 3060 fps
16" - 2940 fps

*Federal XM193F M193 5.56mm Ball 55-gr FMJ-BT* (LC-08 headstamp brass)
20" - 3240 fps
16" - 3120 fps

*M855 Ball Lake City 62-gr FMJ-BT* with green tip, LC-05 mil-spec pressure
20" - 3080 fps


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## joesn68 (Aug 4, 2009)

Mainly curiosity because they are chambered for both. I was interested in the tactical application where you came upon the possibility that you had to load a mag quickly and could not differentiate between the two chamberings but had both types in close proximity. If that makes sense.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

You would be go to go in that case.


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## Duurty1 (Sep 10, 2007)

joesn68 said:


> Mainly curiosity because they are chambered for both. I was interested in the tactical application where you came upon the possibility that you had to load a mag quickly and could not differentiate between the two chamberings but had both types in close proximity. If that makes sense.


keep a few loaded at all times :lol:


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## eyecrazy (May 4, 2008)

5.56 is loaded hotter and true 5.56 barrels have a longer lead or throat between the bullet and lands.

You should not shoot 5.56 through comercial .223 chambered barrels.

As noted there is a wylde chambering used by Rock River arms-it is a 5.56 chamber with a tighter neck for accuracy (with .223 target loads) and it is fine with either ammo.

5.56 ammo offers more performance for the buck than cheap .223 (its faster typically going 3100 fps out of a 16 inch barrel)

There are other things to consider, Bushmaster,Rock River,Stag, Smith ect. Ar15's typically are 1 in 9 twist, Mil spec guns tend to have 1 in 7 twist barrels and perform better with 62 grain or heavier 5.56 loads.

It is currently a buyers market on AR-15's at the moment, no reason not to go with the best ,true mil spec ar's if you are buying right now-espically if they are the same price as the non mil spec Bushmasters, Rock Rivers ect.

Buy one of these 

LMT
Colt
Daniel Defence
BCM
Noveske

What makes a better AR? (a fighting M4 carbine type weapon)

Mi spec barrel steel, proof tested and MP inspected with a true 5.56 chamber and chrome lining. 1 in 7 twist
True M4 feed ramps on the barrel extension and lower receiver
Full auto bolt carrier (more mass) with a shot peened and MP inspected/proof tested bolt with quality extractor spring with black insert and o-ring.
Proper gas port size on barrel for 5.56 ammo-comercial ar's tend to have overly large gas ports.
Heavy carbine buffer

There are other differences but I don't want to go on and on!

If you are just looking of a varmint/target rifle the others will serve you will, I like the Rock River heavy barrel varmint guns.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

If you go with a 16" barrel, I would heavily recommend a mid-length, rather than the carbine/M4 length gas system. The mid-length taps the gas from further down the barrel resulting is less port pressure and is easier and more forgiving on the operating parts and function in general.


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