# ticks



## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

has anybody ever gotten horribly sick after finding ticks on them? I found 3 on me after sitting watching a waterhole for hours this last spring. within 3 days I had a 102-103 fever that lasted for days, went away a day and then came back for another four or 5 days. my head was killing me, my muscles were all cramped and stiff and I was completely run down. lost 15 lbs in two weeks. went to dr several times had a ton of blood draws. they sent me to hematologist at the cancer center to test for all kinds horrifying conditions because my bone marrow was barely functioning, before deciding it looked like a tick-borne virus without giving a whole lot specifics to explain the reasoning or screening for any tick viruses other than lyme diseas, which came back negative. 
I was worried it was hanta or something but the docs were all focused on the ticks. worst of the symptoms lasted about 2 weeks and another couple weeks after that before I felt 100%. 
id never really seen ticks in Utah and I grew up in Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri and found ticks all over me and never been sick like this. It didn't creep up on me. I felt fine then it hit suddenly and hard. nearest match to symptoms and duration I could find was Colorado tick fever. was it just my Midwestern background that made me susceptible or has anyone else ever been through this. after being that sick and running up $5k in medical bills on specialists and labs, I am wearing repellant from now on.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I have known folks to have Lyme Disease and Rocky Mt Spotted Fever. I am not aware of any evidence that place of birth matters with those diseases. 

Did you have any rashes?

Did they send you to an infectious disease specialist? If so, did they perform tests for Rocky Mt? It doesn't sound like it given severity of your symptoms and the fact that they normally start antibiotic treatment immediately as tests can take a week to get back. 

I spent years tracking down a diagnosis, for a different issue, with no luck so I know how frustrating it can be. Google can be a double edged sword in these moments. Best of luck and take care of yourself. Don't be shy about being a strong advocate for yourself at the doctor's office.


----------



## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

Man, that is crazy. I wondered about Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, as well, though I'm assuming they looked into that.


----------



## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

Day 2 I went to urgent care. They gave me a zpack and did a blood draw. Draw showed low white blood cells so they told me to check back if it didn't improve. Day 8 I stopped wasting my time at urgent care n went general practitioner that did white blood cell panel and test for Lyme disease. 3 days later they call me and say the labs are back and my white blood cells are so low I need to go to er if I get fever over 100, and they were gonna send me to hematologist but didn't say what they were thinking. I go to address for hematologist and it's at the cancer center. They gave me paper for labs to hand over at the window and had lymphoma, leukemia labs on it. When the labs came back the hematologist said white blood cells were up but still low. So went back in another week all white blood cells were in range. He said it was obviously viral since it sorted itself out and a lot of the tick borne viruses suppress your bone marrow like that but there were no labs or tests on specific ones and I'm not sure they have tests for all of them. Was just weird getting slammed so fast by that virus


----------



## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

I had no rash or gi trouble. Just muscle cramps headache fever ect. Knocked me down to 170lbs in a couple weeks


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Sounds a lot like a viral syndrome with bone marrow suppression. Lyme disease is not endemic in Utah, and the so-called Chronic LD is a myth, despite what the naturopaths in Utah County say. Not sure why they prescribed azithromycin, as it's not indicated for RMSF, LD, etc.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Down to 170 lbs? Maybe I need to find some ticks! In all seriousness.....I'm glad your ok Mr. Whelen.-------SS


----------



## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

The zpac was from urgent care. they didn't really do any in depth examination. They just said they didn't know but we can try a zpac, and I'd only been sick a couple days when I went in. Colorado tick fever made the most sense but they don't have test for it I don't think. Symptoms matched perfectly n duration matched up. Ctf causes the bone marrow suppression too. Just glad it cleared up on its own.Whatever it was it wasnt contagious. My wife n girls never got sick. Has anybody else got sick like this after spring hunts or anything?


----------



## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Maybe I can't read but....no welts, sore's, blood, scratching, swelling, bumps or entry marks? I don't get it.


----------



## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

My Indian nickname is 8 tick......given to me by a friend I used to hunt with. .
Everytime we went on the horses or 4 wheelers in the southwest Desert unit I would
come back with at least 8 ticks. 
But I have never had anything like that happen to me. 
That is very scary. Guess I got lucky. 
Glad u are feeling better.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

paddler said:


> Sounds a lot like a viral syndrome with bone marrow suppression. Lyme disease is not endemic in Utah, and the so-called Chronic LD is a myth, despite what the naturopaths in Utah County say. Not sure why they prescribed azithromycin, as it's not indicated for RMSF, LD, etc.


Is doxycycline still the drug of choice for human beings with rickettsial diseases?


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Catherder said:


> Is doxycycline still the drug of choice for human beings with rickettsial diseases?


Yep.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Finally a topic I can read paddler's posts and actually believe he knows what he's talking about!!!


----------



## twinkielk15 (Jan 17, 2011)

In twenty years hunting and camping in Utah I don't believe I've ever found a tick. I've found a couple on my dogs but never on me. Are you guys finding them frequently?


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

twinkielk15 said:


> In twenty years hunting and camping in Utah I don't believe I've ever found a tick.


I'm well over double that and never had a tick on me. /shrug

If the conversation turns to fleas, well then.... stupid rabbits. -O,-

-DallanC


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

twinkielk15 said:


> In twenty years hunting and camping in Utah I don't believe I've ever found a tick. I've found a couple on my dogs but never on me. Are you guys finding them frequently?


I think it depends a lot on location. One of my former turkey hunting spots (a private cattle ranch) was loaded with them. Dad and I would sometimes pick up 3-5 a day, despite using bugspray. Fortunately, and probably because I have an irrational fear of those #@$! things, I always found them while they were still on our clothes and gear. It pays to check often.

I've never attracted any while hunting deer or elk, although some of the animals we've harvested carried a few.


----------



## twinkielk15 (Jan 17, 2011)

DallanC said:


> twinkielk15 said:
> 
> 
> > In twenty years hunting and camping in Utah I don't believe I've ever found a tick.
> ...


That's another one. I do quite a bit of rabbit hunting and I always wonder about bringing them home. I still eat the ones with fleas but I don't put them in my vest until they're clean. Then I feel like I've got fleas on me the rest of the day. Probably overreacting.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

35whelen said:


> The zpac was from urgent care. they didn't really do any in depth examination. They just said they didn't know but we can try a zpac, and I'd only been sick a couple days when I went in. Colorado tick fever made the most sense but they don't have test for it I don't think. Symptoms matched perfectly n duration matched up. Ctf causes the bone marrow suppression too. Just glad it cleared up on its own.Whatever it was it wasnt contagious. My wife n girls never got sick. Has anybody else got sick like this after spring hunts or anything?


Just did a bit of reading on the CDC website. CTF fits your course. There are labs tests that one can do to confirm the diagnosis. Because it's viral, there is no treatment. There were only 83 cases reported between 2002 and 2012, so it's uncommon.

Keep in mind that antibiotics should be prescribed according to evidence-based guidelines. Throwing Z packs around is common but inappropriate. It has been so over-prescribed that it's a bit of a joke. I only prescribe it for Chlamydia.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I've recently started adding antibiotics to my SHTF kit. I still plan to use a doctor whenever possible, but if it ever becomes impossible, its nice to know there are still options. We picked up Amoxicillin, Ciprofloxacin, Cehpalexin, Penicillin. My next order will be some Ampicillin and Tetracycline or Doxycycline. Take the bottles, wrap a little tinfoil on them to stop the light and stick'em in the freezer. Extends the life by years on this stuff before it starts to break down.


-DallanC


----------



## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Permethrin spray to keep the ticks off. Works great.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> I've recently started adding antibiotics to my SHTF kit. I still plan to use a doctor whenever possible, but if it ever becomes impossible, its nice to know there are still options. We picked up Amoxicillin, Ciprofloxacin, Cehpalexin, Penicillin. My next order will be some Ampicillin and Tetracycline or Doxycycline. Take the bottles, wrap a little tinfoil on them to stop the light and stick'em in the freezer. Extends the life by years on this stuff before it starts to break down.
> 
> -DallanC


Definitely not recommended. It's very likely you will misuse the antibiotics or they will expire before you need them. Hell, even doctors cannot be relied upon to use antibiotics correctly, and they know better, or at least should. This case is a perfect example.

Also, the incidence of tick borne diseases here in Utah is quite low.


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I have nothing valuable to add to this thread, but it made me think of this song:


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

gdog said:


> Permethrin spray to keep the ticks off. Works great.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This right here. When I was in Africa I had treated all my clothing with it and had zero that is a big 0 ticks or bugs on me. I even sat very near a ant bed one day and my boots had ants all over them but they stopped when the got to my pants or socks. Another member of our party didn't do it and he had his wife do a tick inspection on him each night. One day he came back and had a couple hundred of ticks the size of chiggers on him around his belt line. He had enough antibiotics with him so that he didn't get too sick.

Great stuff.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Bax* said:


> I have nothing valuable to add to this thread, but it made me think of this song:


Best tick song ever!


----------



## deljoshua (Jul 29, 2013)

I have seen many ticks come off of deer once the deer has been killed. Last year there were probably 50 or so that came off of my buck, mostly from the head and face area. This year I went on an early scouting trip and after I had set up my tent and was about to settle in I found 3 ticks just crawling on the ground right in front of the tent door. I packed everything up and hiked to my cameras to change out memory cards and then went back home. Ticks freak me out and I wasn't about to sleep up there! Are ticks like many other animals or insects where they go through cycles of low numbers and then have years where the numbers just explode?


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> When I was in Africa I had treated all my clothing with it and had zero that is a big 0 ticks or bugs on me. I even sat very near a ant bed one day and my boots had ants all over them but they stopped when the got to my pants or socks. Another member of our party didn't do it and he had his wife do a tick inspection on him each night. One day he came back and had a couple hundred of ticks the size of chiggers on him around his belt line. He had enough antibiotics with him so that he didn't get too sick.
> 
> Great stuff.


I served my mission in Zimbabwe. It was recommended bu the missionary department to bring 2 bottles of permethrin to treat our clothing, not for ticks, but for tsi tsi flies. Nobody ever used it. I didn't even open mine, and I 
was fine. The mission office had an entire closet full of permethrin bottles that missionaries put there so they didn't have to always haul them around in their luggage.

I have never seen so many ticks as was on my Pauns buck back in 2012. That thing was crawling with what seemed like hundreds and hundreds of them. I've seen ticks on deer before, but never like that.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

deljoshua said:


> I have seen many ticks come off of deer once the deer has been killed. Last year there were probably 50 or so that came off of my buck, mostly from the head and face area. This year I went on an early scouting trip and after I had set up my tent and was about to settle in I found 3 ticks just crawling on the ground right in front of the tent door. I packed everything up and hiked to my cameras to change out memory cards and then went back home. Ticks freak me out and I wasn't about to sleep up there! Are ticks like many other animals or insects where they go through cycles of low numbers and then have years where the numbers just explode?


Permethrin spray also works on your tents and any other material that will absorb the spray. Did I say that it is good stuff.

On the ticks on deer, I have never killed a deer or elk that has had any ticks on them. But then I usually don't go hunting until after September 1 weather it is archery or rifle hunting. I'm not saying that there aren't any but I haven't seen any.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

I killed a nice deer with my bow in the mountains above Los Angeles in 1979. Covered in ticks. Seemed like the ticks had ticks. Pretty disgusting.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

paddler said:


> Definitely not recommended. It's very likely you will misuse the antibiotics or they will expire before you need them.


Oh I get it, like I said its for SHTF use only. I have Davis's Drug Guide books detailing use of medicines of all kinds as well as other field medicine books. I fully expect and hope to never need nor use any of it... but, I also never expect to use my house insurance either, yet I still maintain it.

Local dominant religion preaches a maintaining a 2 year supply of food. Having some meds on hand if things are that bad is just taking things a minor step further in the prep world.

-DallanC


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Oh I get it, like I said its for SHTF use only. I have Davis's Drug Guide books detailing use of medicines of all kinds as well as other field medicine books. I fully expect and hope to never need nor use any of it... but, I also never expect to use my house insurance either, yet I still maintain it.
> 
> Local dominant religion preaches a maintaining a 2 year supply of food. Having some meds on hand if things are that bad is just taking things a minor step further in the prep world.
> 
> -DallanC


So, you seem to be saying that keeping antibiotics on hand to take when you think you need them is analogous to having house insurance. Are you sure about that? Seems more analogous to keeping a loaded gun in your house for self defense, ie, more likely to do harm than good. I don't have any antibiotics on hand.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If you are out in the sticks having some antibiotics on hand can mean having a enjoyable hunt or having to pull up camp and head home to the doctor. 

If you talk to your doctor and tell him what you are planning odds are he will prescribe some for you with the instructions on the dosages. And a prescription antibiotic is a lot better than those that you can get over the counter. 

Before I headed over to Africa I had my doctor do just that and I had them at our main camp since the nearest doctor was a few hours away and I didn't want to loose any hunting time. 

You should also add some diarrhea, stomach/intestinal antacids or what ever else you might think that you'll need when you are away from civilization for a extended amount of time.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Critter said:


> If you are out in the sticks having some antibiotics on hand can mean having a enjoyable hunt or having to pull up camp and head home to the doctor.
> 
> If you talk to your doctor and tell him what you are planning odds are he will prescribe some for you with the instructions on the dosages. And a prescription antibiotic is a lot better than those that you can get over the counter.
> 
> ...


What did your doctor prescribe for you? For what? did you take it?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't even have them anymore, it was some general antibiotic for colds or internal problems if I remember right. 

And no I didn't take any of it. I left my diarrhea and over the counter meds there with the outfitter for him to give out to his staff or other hunters that might need something non prescription to keep going.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

paddler said:


> So, you seem to be saying that keeping antibiotics on hand to take when you think you need them is analogous to having house insurance. Are you sure about that? Seems more analogous to keeping a loaded gun in your house for self defense, ie, more likely to do harm than good. I don't have any antibiotics on hand.


No, of course I dont have them for when I think I need them. I never have. I have them in case a doctor says I need XYZ and there are no XYZ to be found.

-DallanC


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

paddler said:


> Just did a bit of reading on the CDC website. CTF fits your course. There are labs tests that one can do to confirm the diagnosis. Because it's viral, there is no treatment. There were only 83 cases reported between 2002 and 2012, so it's uncommon.
> 
> Keep in mind that antibiotics should be prescribed according to evidence-based guidelines. Throwing Z packs around is common but inappropriate. It has been so over-prescribed that it's a bit of a joke. I only prescribe it for Chlamydia.


Interesting discussion. The original poster didn't mention what his platelet count was (or may not have been told) but in my world of treating dogs, those symptoms and test results would be suggestive of tick borne disease caused by rickettsias. Rocky Mountain spotted fever is one most of you are familiar with, but another one called Ehrlichia is more common and is a big problem in dogs living in certain areas. They present with similar hemograms in many cases. I've been to meetings where there is some debate and question if Ehrlichia causes human illness. It, as is RMSF, is responsive to select antibiotics.

I've read of both Bourbon and Heartland viral diseases, both tick borne. A woman in Missouri died from Bourbon virus last month. Paddler, do you know if CTF is similar to these?

As for the Z pack, that seems astonishing in light of the clinical history even in a quick care setting. There are other choices that would have made more sense.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

2 different doctors were supportive of prescribing antibiotics for separate expeditions. Both knew me, my medical history and patterns (rarely want Rx as first line of defense) and my WFR training. Never used them either time but was grateful for them in our first aid kit on our 30 day whitewater trip. If I hadn't been able to keep my partial thickness burn clean they could have been a life saver considering we still had 20 days and almost 180 miles left to row.

Plus, only a handful of specific antibiotics get toxic after expiration dates (not always the same as generic one year printed on Rx). Several reputable sites talk about the difference between industry expiration dates (the longest they are comfortable to guarantee meds) versus tested life of efficacy. I still toss mine at end of expiration date myself but I don't have a SHTF setup to consider and I'm not willing to remotely risk any loss of efficacy for my pain pills (if you have ever had nummular headaches you will understand). 

Best of luck and do research yourself and trust your pharmacist and doctor (if you don't, get a new one).


----------



## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

I had a few small red spots where I pulled the ticks off. The skin tented when I pulled em off but they really weren't dug in all that deep like ticks I've had in the Midwest. No rashes or welts. I've pulled off ticks in Iowa and Missouri, countless times with my bare fingers and it was always a struggle and usually left hard itchy welt for a long time. These ticks in Utah were all on my torso, and while definitely attached, easy to pull off with my fingers.


----------



## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

Cat herder, they never mentioned my platelets. They seemed most concerned about my neutrophils, that dipped below 500. I really wished we could have nailed it down, but hey weren't concerned about more labs after all my wbc were back in range and my symptoms had ended.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Catherder said:


> Interesting discussion. The original poster didn't mention what his platelet count was (or may not have been told) but in my world of treating dogs, those symptoms and test results would be suggestive of tick borne disease caused by rickettsias. Rocky Mountain spotted fever is one most of you are familiar with, but another one called Ehrlichia is more common and is a big problem in dogs living in certain areas. They present with similar hemograms in many cases. I've been to meetings where there is some debate and question if Ehrlichia causes human illness. It, as is RMSF, is responsive to select antibiotics.
> 
> I've read of both Bourbon and Heartland viral diseases, both tick borne. A woman in Missouri died from Bourbon virus last month. Paddler, do you know if CTF is similar to these?
> 
> As for the Z pack, that seems astonishing in light of the clinical history even in a quick care setting. There are other choices that would have made more sense.


I haven't read about Heartland or Bourbon virus, all I know about the latter is Buffalo Trace is my personal favorite. I have very little experience treating tick borne Rickettsial diseases, as they are quite uncommon in Utah. Erlichiosos, as of 2010, had been reported zero times in Utah. I don't think any endemic cases have ever been reported here.

I agree about the azithromycin. Generally speaking, the majority of azithromycin prescriptions are inappropriate, regardless of the practice setting. Makes one really question the judgement of physicians who prescribe it.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

That just miserable. I had never heard of CTF but that biphasic fever sounds spot on. It sounds like you eventually found some thorough doctors which makes all of the difference.

As I get older I'm shocked by how many people I know who have experienced hard to diagnose illnesses or go completely undiagnosed. I have a team of 3 great specialist but it took years of dealing with sub-par GPs to find them. I hope you don't ever experience the symptoms again and remain healthy but I would recommend keeping a detailed health journal for such a distinct issue just in case. I experienced a life altering illness after a river trip and have never been officially diagnosed, even after 6 active years of chasing symptoms. Best they can do is label the overarching issue as a "viral syndrome" after mild success via diagnosis by treatment. I'm now 8 years in and finally managing symptoms (when they happen) and accepting a nebulous diagnosis thanks to a compassionate doctor.


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

deljoshua said:


> I have seen many ticks come off of deer once the deer has been killed. Last year there were probably 50 or so that came off of my buck, mostly from the head and face area.


Most likely the parasites on your deer were keds not ticks. Keds are gray and look like ticks but feed on dead skin cells (if my memory serves me) rather than suck blood like a tick. Deer do get blood sucking ticks but they mostly congregate on the underside.



deljoshua said:


> Are ticks like many other animals or insects where they go through cycles of low numbers and then have years where the numbers just explode?


I'm not sure about annual cycles, but I have observed seasonal cycles. Late spring and early summer is the times when I have picked up the greatest number of the vermin. By the time the big game hunts roll around ticks are pretty rare.....at least in the northern part of the state where I generally hunt.


----------



## jsumm_2000 (Sep 18, 2008)

Those symptoms sound a little like West Nile Virus, and it is here.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Kevin D said:


> Most likely the parasites on your deer were keds not ticks. Keds are gray and look like ticks but feed on dead skin cells (if my memory serves me) rather than suck blood like a tick. Deer do get blood sucking ticks but they mostly congregate on the underside.


Kevin is dead on. People mistake them quite often as they do look very similar.

A sure fire way to tell the difference in a Ked vs a Tick is count the legs, Keds have 6, Ticks have 8. I rarely see Ticks on deer, but I see a dozen or so of Keds on most deer... gives me the creeps to look at a cooling off deer and watching those things run out to the tips of all the hair, waiting to grab onto something warm.

Do a search on Keds here at UWN, I know I've posted pictures showing the differences several times over the years.

-DallanC


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

paddler said:


> I haven't read about Heartland or Bourbon virus, all I know about the latter is Buffalo Trace is my personal favorite. I have very little experience treating tick borne Rickettsial diseases, as they are quite uncommon in Utah. Erlichiosos, as of 2010, had been reported zero times in Utah. I don't think any endemic cases have ever been reported here.
> 
> I agree about the azithromycin. Generally speaking, the majority of azithromycin prescriptions are inappropriate, regardless of the practice setting. Makes one really question the judgement of physicians who prescribe it.


A recent link about bourbon virus.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...orne-illness-called-bourbon-virus/474972001/#

In 14 years of practice here, I've had one positive test for Ehrlichia canis in a local dog. As the patient died soon afterwards, follow-up was not possible. I have always wondered if it was a false positive. However, in Las Vegas, I treated several dogs with it, mostly in people who brought dogs from out-of-state. it is quite common in some parts of the country.


----------

