# LE Bookcliffs Elk With Zero Points?



## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

So my brother in law just found out someone had forfeited their LE tag and his name came up for it. What I'm confused about is this is the first year he had put in, has zero points and ended up getting the LE Bookcliffs Elk archery tag. How is this possible? Why wouldn't someone else with 11 or 14 points get this tag? I'm super confused, I didn't think there was any possibility to draw a LE tag with no points. Who wants to explain this? :?:


----------



## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

At this point isn't it still a random draw and wouldn't it go to the person with highest points (even though they have a better percentage of drawing)?


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

He was assigned one random number with 0 points. The guy with 14 or 15 points draws 14 or 15 numbers and is assigned the lowest number of the 14 or 15. Your buddy had a lower number and was next in line to draw thiis year.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That is just the way that the Utah draw system works. Good for some bad for the rest of us.


----------



## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Yep, guys with 14 points just have 14 chances. The guy with zero points has one chance. Only half of the tags are alloted to people with the most points. The other half are done by random drawing. The person who gave up the tag was chosen in the random draw. 

It's just like how the Utah Jazz moved up to the number 3 spot in the NBA draft this year. The pick should have gone to the Tornonto Raptors by the odds, but the Jazz ball came out when the choice was made. 

Last year I drew an LE elk tag with 1 point. I had been putting in for deer for a decade until I drew the year before.


----------



## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

The way it works is 50% of LE tags are designated for guys\gals with the highest points. The remaining 50% is then drawn on a completely random draw and points don't figure into the equation. If you aren't in the highest point bracket for a given unit\hunt a guy with 10 points has the same odds as a guy with 0 points. Make sense?

Now if someone turns in their tag I have no idea if they look to see if the tag was originally drawn on points or lottery and then allocated accordingly.


----------



## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

Consider him the luck S.O.B. and help him out the best you can. You will still have loads of fun. 8)


----------



## PolarXJ (Apr 8, 2011)

I consider my self to be a luck S.O.B. 8) for drawing the same tag on zero points. BTW, I'm not the BIL.


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

bullsnot said:


> The way it works is 50% of LE tags are designated for guys\gals with the highest points. The remaining 50% is then drawn on a completely random draw and points don't figure into the equation. If you aren't in the highest point bracket for a given unit\hunt a guy with 10 points has the same odds as a guy with 0 points. Make sense?
> 
> Now if someone turns in their tag I have no idea if they look to see if the tag was originally drawn on points or lottery and then allocated accordingly.


Sorry to upstage you Bull, but I talked to the staff at the Southern Region office and here's the way it works. Keep in mind that this process happens for each hunt separately. (Sorry, I didn't think to ask about 2nd and 3rd choices, but I'll try to find out about them another time.)

It's true that 50% (rounded down) of LE tags are designated to guys/gals with the highest points, but if there are more applicants then designated tags for that group, even they have to go through a group mini-drawing. The winners (lowest numbers) get the tags while the losers are put in the pool with everyone else. However, if there are more designated tags than applicants, the next highest point group gets a group mini-drawing and this goes on until all of the designated tags are drawn.

Once the 50% are gone, everyone left participates in a final big drawing, lowest number to highest. However, not everyone left has the same chance to draw a tag because the points actually do come into play. Here's how that works. A number is drawn in your behalf for every point you hold plus one for the current application. The lowest of those numbers becomes your final drawing number and the others are discarded. This drawing number then is pooled with everyone else's final drawing number and the final drawing takes place, lowest number to highest. So, while it's true that you only have one number in the final drawing, you'll have as many chances as you have points (+1) to draw that low final drawing number. In other words, a person with 10 points has 11 chances to draw a low final number, while a person with 0 points only has 1 chance to get that low final number. So a person with 0 points is really, really lucky to draw a tag, but it obviously happens once in a while.

As for the turned in tags, there are numbers drawn, per the process above, for alternate applicants (The SR staff thought there were 5) and held in reserve to replace hunters who turn in their tags. In other words, if there are 25 tags scheduled for a hunt, they will pull the 30 lowest numbers per the process above, give the tags to the 25 applicants with the 25 lowest numbers, but will replace the first person who quits with the lowest number of the remaining 5 alternates, the second who quits with the next lowest alternate number, and so forth.

The process is a quite complicated and way beyond my current knowledge of computers and statistics, but I'm the kind of person who likes details in order to fully understand things, and I have a few questions about the mechanics, logistics and monitoring of the process. But ya'all can relax, I'll dig a little, but keep those irrelevant answers to myself. Who knows, maybe I can figure out a way to increase my chances of getting ALL of the OIL tags! 

Edited: I need to clarify a detail I messed up on. The numbers in your behalf are drawn at the beginning of the whole process and your lowest number is the only number used throughout.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

elkfromabove: The draw is even more complicated than what you described. You can tell by just going to the bonus point draw summery http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggam ... esults.pdf

You'll see that some where they decide if there will be bonus tags allowed for the hunt or if they will all just be regular tags. Also someone decides on where the cut off is for max points so if you have 20 points and are the only hunter with 20 points that puts in for that hunt you still might not get drawn

I personally think that the Utah draw system is so complicated to figure out even the ones doing the draw can't figure it out.


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Critter said:


> elkfromabove: The draw is even more complicated than what you described. You can tell by just going to the bonus point draw summery http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggam ... esults.pdf
> 
> You'll see that some where they decide if there will be bonus tags allowed for the hunt or if they will all just be regular tags. Also someone decides on where the cut off is for max points so if you have 20 points and are the only hunter with 20 points that puts in for that hunt you still might not get drawn
> 
> I personally think that the Utah draw system is so complicated to figure out even the ones doing the draw can't figure it out.


Thanks for the link. It was enlightening. And the draw certainly is complicated, but I have to take issue with two of your conclusions.

I checked each and every hunt (Yes, all 463 of them.) and found 6 that have some of the problems you suggest; 4 of them seem to have skipped highest point groups (15-007, 27-008, 10-016, 25-042), 1 of them added an extra bonus tag by rounding up instead of down (21-311), and 1 of them didn't fill the highest group before moving down to the next (12-814). I may have missed others, but probably not many. I'm not sure if those results are actual or if they are typo's, but in any case, they need to be looked at.

However, all for them, except the one I mentioned above, have the correct number of bonus tags (50% rounded down), so they haven't just arbitrarily decided on the number of bonus tags vs. regular tags. The total number of tags for each hunt is certainly under their control, but the 50% bonus tag rule isn't.

And as far as the limit on the number of bonus points you can have, the system has only been active for 18 years, so nobody had more than 17 bonus points for any one species in 2010 as the report shows.

FWIW, If you think this report shows that Utah's big game drawings are complicated now, wait 'til next year when we add 75 more buck/bull hunts AND combine them with the antlerless hunts, which aren't on this report. Yes, Folks, per the Southern Region staff, in 2012 the plan is to conduct ALL of the big game hunt application processes and the drawings together, sometime in May/June (Applications) and July (Drawings). Whoopie!!!!

Edited: Or should I say, Whoopie$$$$


----------



## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks elk for the clarification. You learn something new everyday.


----------



## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

Good lord I hope they don't wait until July to draw the tags. I am going crazy to learn my wife's LE area and she has had the tag for 2 months by now. It is going to suck only having 4 weeks for the archers to scout there areas.


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

alpinebowman said:


> Good lord I hope they don't wait until July to draw the tags. I am going crazy to learn my wife's LE area and she has had the tag for 2 months by now. It is going to suck only having 4 weeks for the archers to scout there areas.


Yes, the plan, as it stands now, is to draw ALL of the tags in July. :O>>:

Edited: ( I do that a lot, don't I? Sorry) The reason for the late application and draw process is that per Option #2, the Division has to set tag quotas for each of the 30 units according to the after- winter classifications and counts as they pertain to population and buck to doe ratios. And the Division can't get that done, obviously, until winter is pretty much over and the classifications and counts are done. Just another unintended consequence of Option #2!


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

OK,,,,,Enough BS.

The late draw is far more a consequence of combining the Antler less and big game draws together.

ALSO allowing time to gather ans evaluate spring big game counts......

This later draw change was coming with OR without opt 2.....


----------



## byuduckhunter (Dec 2, 2008)

I also have seen where people with the most points have not been drawn and where people with less than max points drew from the max point pool. The only explanation that I came up with was they put in as a group with another hunter to bring their average up or down. The point system is really not that complicated. It is explained very well every year in the proclamation. Just take some time to read and understand it. Don't be intimidated!


----------

