# Herter's Press vs RCBS



## wasatchmtnbike (Oct 16, 2007)

So my wife got me a new RCBS Rock Chucker Deluxe reloading kit for Christmas. I'm new to reloading and I told her that I'd like to start reloading, thus the new setup for Christmas.

Now the dilema. Several years ago I picked up an old Herter's Press and I've bought dies for .270, 30-06, and 30-30, but nothing else. I'd still have to buy all the other stuff to get started with the old Herter's. 

My question is this; Which is the better reloading press? I feel kind of bad and guilty that she spent that much money on me, so I was kind of thinking of returning the RCBS and buy the stuff I'd need to get started with the Herter's.

Any opinions about this would be welcome. 

Thanks a bunch!

Gary


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I bought a bunch of dies,powders,primers,bullets,a tumbler,and digital scale from a gal who was getting divorced there was two different brand of dies in the mix and so I basically thought the same thing as you as far as the press and dies being the same brand.I inquired at Kents Shooter Supply and they tell me that the dies should interchange no matter what brand the press is.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Use one press for sizing, and the other for bullet seating. And since you have two presses, you can get your wife to help. I'd let her do the sizing after you get the press set up.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

As _Loke_ wisely mentioned - having 2 presses is really handy at times. That is why they make multi-station and turret presses. The Herter's was cheap, keep it and realize that you can get more stuff for the Rockchucker. I would keep the Rockchucker if I were forced to keep one, but it sounds like keeping both is no issue. You can bolt the secondary use press to a piece of plywood a bit larger than the press base itself, and C-clamp it to any tabletop-like surface and have some portability and ease of storage, if you so desire.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

I have had my RCBS for about 35 years. It's still as good as the day I bought it. I agree, not a bad idea to have two press'. The dies should interchange. Be aware , reloading is an addiction. :mrgreen:


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## wasatchmtnbike (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks guys!

That's a good idea. I think I will keep both and use two presses.

I didn't realize that you could use the same dies in either. I bought the Herters up at DIs in Logan when I was going to school up there, I think it was only a few dollars, and I found the dies at gun shows or on e-bay. 

I can't wait to get into it. My brother and a real good friend are way into it and I'm sure they'll get me started right.

You guys Rock!

Wasatch


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

I got my Herter's press back in 1958. What a work horse. I don't think you could wear it out. It is very heavy cast iron. The only problem you may have is getting shell holders to fit it. I had a machinist make an adapter so it would take the standard type shell holders. Any brand dies will fit either. Herter's went out of business years ago. Their preses are still good, but you can't get parts, unless you can find something on eBay.



> I feel kind of bad and guilty that she spent that much money on me,


Count your blessings and tell her how much you love her.

I don't know how much you shoot, but it takes about 1600 reloaded 45 ACP rounds to recoup the cost of that beginning kit. I haven't ran the numbers on any other caliber. As a rule of thumb, you can reload for about half the cost of factory ammo on most rifle calibers. (once you have the brass)

Does your wife shoot? My wife enjoys shooting and when we go to the range we will shoot 300 to 400 rounds. Much of which is 44 and 357 reloads. We couldn't afford to shoot anywhere near that much if I didn't reload.

Reloading is a great hobby in itself. You can do reloading anytime, even in bad weather when you don't want to be out in the woods. Enjoy.


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## wasatchmtnbike (Oct 16, 2007)

One more question,.....for now.  

I know you can use the same brass several times if you don't load them too hot. How do you keep track of how many times you have used your brass? Or do you measure them each time with a micrometer or something?


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

I don't know how many times my brass gets loaded. Rifle brass 8 to 12 maybe.
Pistol brass does not seem to wear out. 30-30 brass wears out quicker than 270 brass, it seems to me. It may just be the type of action. My 30-30 is a lever action. I load for 222 Rem also, and that brass goes a long way.

If you buy popular calibers, brass is lots easier to come by.

Part of the reloading process is careful brass inspection. You toss it when it gets cracks on the neck or if it seems it is near a separation at the base. Also with rifle brass you need to check the length. You can load them several times before needing to be trimmed, but do check them each time.

Calipers are nice, but you can use a go/no go gauge to check them. I used a fired once casing for a comparison for many years for lack of better tools. You don't want to load a brass that will touch the end of its space in the rifle barrel, it can cause extreme pressures. Calipers are also nice to check over all length against the recipe when seating bullets. Again not absloutely necessary. Compare to a factory load. Make sure it works in your magazine.

I found a good dial caliper here: http://www.mcmaster.com/ at a decent price. They were quick to ship too.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

wasatchmtnbike said:


> One more question,.....for now.
> 
> I know you can use the same brass several times if you don't load them too hot. How do you keep track of how many times you have used your brass? Or do you measure them each time with a micrometer or something?


I would advise measuring and resizing every time you reload your cases especially if you are loading them hot.In reloading like anything else firearm related safety has to be number one.Measuring is tedious and adds alot of time to the process but it is nice not to have to wonder if your brass is going to hold together when fired.A micrometer and caliper are your best friend when reloading.Be precise and exact in your measurements.I am still fairly new to the reloading this time around.I got into it when I was in high school but dropped it when I left home.My stepfather always set everything up and I did the handle pulling.Get a good manual or three and consult them often.I am including a photo of what happens when cases aren't sized the way they should be.I was lucky according to the the gunsmith if this rifle had been a bolt instead of a lever I wouldn't be here to tell about it.I walked around with powder embedded in my face for over a month and it dazed the heck out of me.It was a valuable lesson about safety and one that I won't soon forget.


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## wasatchmtnbike (Oct 16, 2007)

Yikes! That's scary! :shock: 

Thanks for the pointers. I appreciate it. 

I think I have most everything in the kit except the powder, bullets, and primers. I'll try to get calipers and a micrometer before I start.

Where do you find good places to pick up all your reloading supplies? 

Thanks!


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

For reloading I go to Kents Shooter Supply in Ogden.


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## Nueces (Jul 22, 2008)

I personally wouldn't go hot on loads. I see a lot of +P handgun loads. If you want more power, get a bigger caliber or gun that is designed for that. I'll have to look for a photo of a .45 that was reloaded hot by someone. The slide was split open including the barrel.

I'd keep it within the specs and follow them closely. Just my opinion.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

I have been reloading off and on for nearly 20 years. My 25-06 has never fired a single round of factory ammo.
Thousands of rounds in at least 5 calibers without ever having an issue.

UNTIL the last time I loaded Varmint rounds for the 25 that is. :shock: 

I had a few rounds of my old recipe left and loaded up a batch of new bullets, with a type of powder I had not previously used. Then went Coyote hunting.

Long story short, I couldn't find any Coyotes to shoot so I stopped at a place to see how the new loads performed.
First round fired fine. Second round felt like a .416 Rigby :shock: :shock: :shock: 

I got rocked back on my heels and nearly landed on my butt. Tried to open the bolt to look at what had happened. Couldn't open it. Ended up having to slide a piece of conduit over the handle, which I happened to have in my kit, and lever it open. -)O(- 
About this time I was running a little scared. Had to pound the bolt the rest of the way open with a rubber mallet it was stuck so tight. -)O(- 
Opened the chamber and the brass wouldn't let go of the bolt. Pulled the bolt out of the gun, and smacked the brass on the tire several times, until it finally came off.

The brass had fireformed into the bolt face to such a degree that the brass had actually extruded into the over pressure relief hole that Remington builds into them for just such an emergency. The case headstamp was nothing but a shadow instead of being cut into the brass. Kind of like the image that is left when a train runs over a penny. Needless to say, I was DONE shooting that gun for the day.  -)O(- 


I did a chamber dye wash and checked it for cracks, and inspected the bolt to make sure that nothing had been damaged. Perfect. Luckily I had a Remington Rifle. Three rings of steel indeed.

This was the first time anything like this had happened to me, and I am going to do everything possible to make sure it is the LAST time too.

I had to go to the store and buy a bullet pulling hammer, as I had never needed one before.

I broke down EVERY round in that batch and re-weighed the powder charge. Some of them were off by as much as a FULL GRAIN!
Like say it was supposed to be 56 gr. it was 57, or even 55. And there was a wide variety of variation that was within the tenth gr. spectrum.

I have NO idea how this is possible, but I bought an electronic scale to double check EVERY load that I put together since then.

It has been suggested to me that my balance beam scale might have been dirty at the pivot point and that this prevented an accurate reading, but I don't know.
I DO know that I will never use it without making sure that it is as clean as possible before I start loading EVER AGAIN. AND double check it with the electronic.

Safety procedures CAN NOT be over emphasized. Be safe at every step and you will STAY safe. One mistake can cost you too much to imagine until it is too late. I GOT LUCKY!

Shooting an animal with a cartridge you assembled yourself is a lot like catching a fish on a fly you tied yourself. Just one more level to enjoy the experience on.

I am nitpicky as all hell, I will not settle for an okay group, say 1" at 100 yards. I want five shots into 1/2" or less at 100 yards and preferably at 500. :wink: 
This goes for all my rifle loads. I had a .300 win mag that shot that well too.

Welcome to the only thing that rivals duck hunting or maybe turkey hunting for it's addictive nature and isn't some kind of drug. :mrgreen:


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

What kind of powder were you using? Did you weigh every charge, or just run them through the measure? It sounds to me like there was a whole lot more going on than a 1 grain variation in your powder charge. I would guess more like 10. But then again, a 25-06 case won't hold 67 grains of slow burning powder.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

For the life of me I cannot remember off the top of my head what kind of powder it was. It is packed in a box of stuff that I have buried in the garage where I cannot get to it at the moment, but I am sure that is was an IMR powder. I got the load recipe from an IMR manual (which I guess is in the same box, as it isn't on my table with the rest of my manuals) and loaded it according to my standard method which had never failed me before.

I have always used Hodgdon powders both before and since for rifle.

Yes I weighed every load, I don't even own a measure.
I spent weeks trying to figure out what was the EXACT cause, but without actually measuring everything and then firing them all to see which if any would overreact, I have no idea.

I suspect that it was a unique combination that I did not duplicate in any of the other rounds that I checked, but with having found up to 1.1 gr of difference in a cartridge, it makes me suspicious that maybe it was multiple grains on the LOW side somehow. As you said, a 25.06 won't hold enough of an OVER charge to blow that hard, at least not with any kind of powder that should be used for it. But a LOW charge is quite capable of producing a pressure event like the one I had. Too much empty space means faster burning at the beginning which spikes the pressure WAY sooner than is safe.

It has been a mystery to me for the three years since it happened, and I will probably never know 100% for sure. But I will not be using that load for that gun EVER again. :wink: 

My gun really likes H4350 anyway. 3/8" for five rounds at 100 yards is good enough. 

Barely. :wink:

Oh just as an informational point, I got my electronic calipers at Checker auto parts of all places, they were only about $15 and have worked great for like 5 years now.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I got curious and pulled out my Hornady manual. For their 75 grain varmint bullet for the 25-06 they list two IMR powders, 4320 and 4350. With the 4320, a maximum load is 49 grains. with the 4350, the maximum is 56 grains. Maybe you had 4320 and mistook it for 4350? Just a thought.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

"Now the dilema. Several years ago I picked up an old Herter's Press and I've bought dies for .270, 30-06, and 30-30, but nothing else. I'd still have to buy all the other stuff to get started with the old Herter's."

I am also a new comer to reloading, and one problem I ran into was with the 30-30, I couldnt get the crimp right around the bullet so I couldnt feed them into my rifle without pushing them back into the case. So I had to shoot them one at a time. You may want to get some advice on the 30-30 from some of the guys and see what they suggest with that specific round.

Some guys have told me that the 30-30 isnt a good round to learn on because of the crimp issue. Maybe they were wrong?


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## Nueces (Jul 22, 2008)

Artoxx said:


> I have NO idea how this is possible, but I bought an electronic scale to double check EVERY load that I put together since then.


I have reloaded a LOT of shotgun shells but never have rifle or handgun (I have the dies for them...).

Far from having any knowledge on the rifle reloading, but a guy that does some long range varmint hunting indicated that an electronic scale needs about 30 minutes to sit and adjusts it's self. He indicated that you can get some inconsistent loads with an electronic scale (maybe just his experience). So he is precise in his grouping and load specs.

Sounds like you purchased the electronic scale AFTER this? Double and triple checking everything sounds like a good practice. Slapping shotgun shells together I have never had any problems but they seem to handle auto loading presses. Rifle and handgun sound a little more picky on what they will accept.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

*NOVEL *TIME, Touched a nerve. _O\ *\-\* :rotfl: 



Loke said:


> I got curious and pulled out my Hornady manual. For their 75 grain varmint bullet for the 25-06 they list two IMR powders, 4320 and 4350. With the 4320, a maximum load is 49 grains. with the 4350, the maximum is 56 grains. Maybe you had 4320 and mistook it for 4350? Just a thought.


 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: No way in heaven or hell. :shock: :shock: :shock: :wink:

Up until the last trip into Sportsmans, the only varmint bullets that I have been able to find for my 25 were 87gr. I only have one manual that even lists the 75gr bullet as an option and that is from hodgdon. My speer manual doesn't list it and the IMR manual doesn't list it either. Speaking of which I dug out the IMR manual and the powder. Here is the recipe I followed, and NO I did not use 56gr of it, I just couldn't remember what the exact starting charge was after 2 years or whatever and used that as an example. :wink: 
*IMR 3031 48gr
under an 87gr Speer moly coated spitzer HP bullet
I used Winchester Nickel Plated brass which had been polished and trimmed for OAL.
and a Winchester primer*
They also list loads for this caliber/powder combo using 100gr and 120gr bullets. (_*NOT ME!*_)
If my understanding of powder speeds is correct this is a MUCH faster burning powder than the H4350 which I normally use, and I would have thought that this would have encouraged me to be that much more careful, but I guess not. -)O(- Or else I had a REALLY bad scale error. Just so you know, I have used the BB scale since then and double checked it with the electronic, and it has been dead on every time, so... :? :? :? I seem to remember that the only reason that I even tried this recipe was because I already had the powder on hand and was out of H4350. 
A full grain plus or minus on a 48gr load is a LOT in a case that size, so maybe it was just a grain, but somehow I doubt it. :shock: -)O(-  
Also just so you know, I used to spend a lot of time on the NAHC forum and we hashed this out for the better part of 6 months, nobody could nail it down then either. _(O)_

I don't mind getting into it again because it is a good reminder to ME and to everyone else who thinks they can't screw it up. It only takes ONCE to ruin your day, or worse. -)O(- 
If you had asked me prior to firing that round, I would have told you that _*THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY I COULD HAVE SCREWED IT UP, I AM ALWAYS TOO CAREFUL FOR THAT.*_ *WRONG!* Even if I did EVERYTHING exactly the way I thought I did, there was still an error made somewhere. Either my scale was dirty, or SOMETHING. I screwed up and got away with it. ONCE! :shock: That is at least twice as many times as it should have happened.



Nueces said:


> I have reloaded a LOT of shotgun shells but never have rifle or handgun (I have the dies for them...).
> 
> Far from having any knowledge on the rifle reloading, but a guy that does some long range varmint hunting indicated that an electronic scale needs about 30 minutes to sit and adjusts it's self. He indicated that you can get some inconsistent loads with an electronic scale (maybe just his experience). So he is precise in his grouping and load specs.
> 
> Sounds like you purchased the electronic scale AFTER this? Double and triple checking everything sounds like a good practice. Slapping shotgun shells together I have never had any problems but they seem to handle auto loading presses. Rifle and handgun sound a little more picky on what they will accept.


Yes I bought the electronic AFTER that, and for the single and solitary reason that I am going to continue double checking every load I pour into my BB scale.
It is not as critical with shotgun and handgun rounds, but it is still possible to kill yourself if you make that mistake. That is why all the safety instructions tell you to double check your measure or thrower every so often even when using an automatic press. 
I THOUGHT I was in the absolute habit of visually checking to make sure that all my loads looked the same as each other, but blowing one up will give you doubts about things like that, and now I am not so sure that I did. No way to tell as I don't video tape all my reloading sessions and can't go back and be sure. :wink:

The part about it that really ticked me off after the SCARE factor mellowed out a little, is that I conduct PRECISION reloading. If I load a batch of ammo it is intended to be of match quality. My WORST load that I ever settled for was five rounds into 1/2" at 100 yards. Most of my loads are closer to 3/8" and I had one batch that measured 1/8" for five consecutive groups.
Watching rifle ads where they guarantee minute of angle (1") accuracy for 3 rounds, makes me get all hoighty toighty and snobbish about the crappy quality of their guarantee. :mrgreen: :wink: 
I had a salesman at Gallensons nearly shocked out of his mind that I wanted Nickle Plated brass ONLY because it shaved 1/32" off my groups on average. He probably STILL thinks I am nuts. :rotfl: 
But that is the kind of loading I do, because that is the kind of accuracy my rifle is capable of and I want to make sure that EVERY miss is due to ME not doing my part and not the quality of the gun or load.
My signature refers to my ability with a shotgun, not a rifle. :wink: :mrgreen:


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

Bax* said:


> "Now the dilema. Several years ago I picked up an old Herter's Press and I've bought dies for .270, 30-06, and 30-30, but nothing else. I'd still have to buy all the other stuff to get started with the old Herter's."
> 
> I am also a new comer to reloading, and one problem I ran into was with the 30-30, I couldnt get the crimp right around the bullet so I couldnt feed them into my rifle without pushing them back into the case. So I had to shoot them one at a time. You may want to get some advice on the 30-30 from some of the guys and see what they suggest with that specific round.
> 
> Some guys have told me that the 30-30 isnt a good round to learn on because of the crimp issue. Maybe they were wrong?


Most die sets come with the ability to adjust how much or how little crimp you get. If the crimper is set too high, it won't crimp at all, too low and you might cut your bullet in half. :wink: JK But you _can_ overcrimp and affect your pressure and accuracy.
I use a noticeable amount of crimp on my 25.06 to make sure that the bullet stays where I put it and not where physics happens to leave it. It also helps keep the pressure consistent so the rounds all fire the same. ACCURACY RULES!
I used more crimp on my .300 Win mag, and quite a lot on my .44 mag
If your dies won't adjust for crimp then you might need to get a different brand of die. I use RCBS dies, but I should think that most brands would have this feature. If not they might sell a crimping die by itself, but I'm not positive about that.

Sorry, wasatchmtnbike, I did not mean to Hijack your thread, hope you are getting good info at least. :mrgreen: :wink:


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

> I don't mind getting into it again because it is a good reminder to ME and to everyone else who thinks they can't screw it up. It only takes ONCE to ruin your day, or worse.
> If you had asked me prior to firing that round, I would have told you that THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY I COULD HAVE SCREWED IT UP, I AM ALWAYS TOO CAREFUL FOR THAT.


My guess: You picked a load out of the book and loaded up 100 rounds? You didn't bother to work up a load for that powder?

I have seen even the lowest suggested loads go overpressure in some rifles and especially with faster burning powders in cartridges with small diameter necks.

That is why we work up loads, always starting at the low end.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I didn't mean to touch a nerve, just trying to come up with a reason for your mishap. I've been loading my own in more than 10 calibers for almost 30 years. I've had a couple of close calls, but none as near-catastrophic as yours. One of my better ones involved a varmint load for my 270. It was a great winter load, but when warmer temps arrived, along with a softer lot of brass, things got interesting. I figured out real fast that pushing the envelope wasn't the best idea.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

> Some guys have told me that the 30-30 isnt a good round to learn on because of the crimp issue. Maybe they were wrong?


I don't know why, but so many reloaders get so frustrated with crimping. It is not a big deal if you unserstand what is going on. Maybe I can help a bit?

The crimper is simply a tapered portion of the seating die. When the casing is sent in deep enough it hits that tapered portion and presses the brass hard into the bullet. To set up your die, first run a casing up as far as it will go, then screw in the die until you feel it come in contact with the crimping ring. Now back it off 1/8 turn. At this setting it will not crimp. Screw the lock ring down tight but don't set the set screw. Now with a casing that is ready for a bullet, put a bullet on it and run it up slowly to push in the bullet. Back off and measure your OAL (over all length). You are going to adjust the bullet seating punch to the right overall length, by doing several ins and outs and measuring until it is the right length.

Now that your bullet is seated the proper amount, back off the bullet seating punch about 3 turns.
Now you will set the crimp. Run the casing all the way up. Loosen the lock nut on the die and turn the die in until you get some resistance. This is where the die will start the crimp. Bring the casing down a little and turn the die in a little bit more. No more than 1/8 turn. Now run the casing up. You will feel some resistance at the end. Now look at the finished casing.

If your bullet has a cannelure and the seating depth puts the end of the brass in the cannelure, you should be able to see the crimp. If its not enough, you turn the die in a little bit more and run it up again until the crimp looks right. Now set the lock ring and the set screw and run the finished cartridge up all the way and screw the bullet punch down to hit the bullet and set its locking nut.

You are now ready to seat bullets, and will not need to readjust the die. At this point I must remind you that it is important that all your brass be the same length or they not will crimp uniformly. Measure and trim as needed as you prepare your brass.

If your bullet does not have a cannelure or crimping ring, you must be really careful how much pressure you put on the crimp. Too much pressure will buckle the neck. If you have calipers you can measure the casing back from the crimp and at the crimp. I go about 0.002 in this case. Since the bullet is already in firm contact with the casing, any crimp at all must actually put a dent in the bullet. Don't try to over do it.

On most rifle loads a crimp is not necessary. On the 30-30 with tubular magazine, it is recommended. Also on the 30-30 lever actions it is recommended the casings be full length sized. To do that, set the sizing die deep enough that the shell holder hits the die on the upstroke.

Hey, I cut my teeth on the 30-30. Good cartridge. Easy enough to reload. Have fun.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

That's what I was going to say, but I didn't want to type that much. :wink:


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

James said:


> My guess: You picked a load out of the book and loaded up 100 rounds? You didn't bother to work up a load for that powder?
> 
> I have seen even the lowest suggested loads go overpressure in some rifles and especially with faster burning powders in cartridges with small diameter necks.
> 
> That is why we work up loads, always starting at the low end.


MMMMMMM. Not exactly, This was my starting point, but it was the first of many adjustments that I planned to make. YES I started at the recommended max, and NO I only loaded 25 rounds, which is 5 groups of 5. I like to see how a load fires when the barrel warms up a bit that way I can pick the most stable shooter as well as the most accurate.

I have started at the max on a BUNCH of different loads and had to work them up, and I am guessing that this is what prompted this poor decision on my part. I should not have ever even thought of loading a NEW powder like an old one, especially not a FASTER powder, and YES I admit it was MY eff up.
It still doesn't explain why the load itself was so widely varied when I broke them back down. But I am guessing that there was a major difference between the first rounds actual contents, and that of the second round.

You can believe it when I say that I will NEVER follow that particular series of choices in the future. ONCE was WAY too many. Over confidence can kill.

I am just grateful that the lesson was not more expensive than it was. Taking some heat from guys who know first hand how serious this is and could have been is a small price to pay for NOT being killed, maimed, or even having to pay for a new gun or repair. I got lucky and I got off easy, and I am VERY AWARE OF IT.
I _could_ just keep this story to myself and hide it from the world, but if my screw up saves anyone else from having to learn this the hard way, it is worth the flak.

And LOKE, don't worry about it, that particular nerve is touchy because I KNOW whose fault it was, even if I am not 100% sure of the specifics. Since I am once again looking at building loads containing not one but 2 new bullets NOW is a good time to remind myself of the problems that I had with the last round and make sure it is NEVER repeated.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

> YES I started at the recommended max,


OK, there is your mistake. Please do not ever start at the top end when working up a load. 
This is stressed in every reloading manual I have ever seen.

Also, if anyone gives you a pet load, do not start at the amount of powder he says, but start down ten percent and work up. Load 3, shoot 3, load 3 more a little higher, shoot those etc. Stop at the first sign of overpressure. Then back up a bit. I have found the most accurate load is usually some below the max published load.

There are too many variables. The rifle itself, the brass, the primer, the temperature and others. 
You just can't assume that what worked in the test barrel is going to be exactly the same in yours. Approach maximum listed loads with caution. IMO it is never necessary or desirable to use the maximum load.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

James said:


> > YES I started at the recommended max,
> 
> 
> OK, there is your mistake. Please do not ever start at the top end when working up a load.
> ...


I know, I know, but I told you I screwed up.  Like I said, I have been reloading for this rifle for the better part of 20 years, I am not a NOOB, and I still managed to justify starting high, instead of following the safety protocol that I have followed on EVERY OTHER recipe that I have ever loaded. 
I had never made that choice before and I can guarandamntee that I never will again. My newest load with the 87gr bullet will start 10% low and work up even though I am (_*almost*_ :shock: ) positive that I know it will end high, but I have never loaded moly coated bullets with H4350 before, so I am starting LOW like I should have on the bomb attempt.
This rifle had wanted MORE powder than the listed max on EVERY recipe that I have ever used, and that is probably 12-15, so I _*MADE THE VERY POOR CHOICE*_, to use the max load on this new kind of powder as a min. 
Usually the groups keep getting tighter and tighter with no signs of excess pressure until I hit center and they start to get worse. I have been the guy sitting on the bench with a loading press working up loads in 1/10th gr. increments, right at the range, but the weather has to be CALM for that, so I don't do it often.
NEVER had a single sign of pressure excess before in my life. In fact I generally work up loads in yellow brass that is a little brown so that I can look for stretch or other shiny inicators of pressure when they fire. Never had any whatsoever.
Wish I would have, maybe it would have made me more careful on the one we are discussing.

Told you I was trying to teach the newcomers a lesson by revealing this at all.  Believe me I would Never have mentioned it if I did not think it was a GREAT lesson for others to learn THE EASY WAY. Not particularly easy for ME, but that is the price I have chosen to pay for my stupidity. Even the experienced guys can look at this and maybe they will avoid getting complacent themselves that ONE time. Once is all it takes.

*I* got complacent and thought I knew everything that there was to know for loading rounds for THIS rifle, and skipped the most important safety step. ESPECIALLY WITH AN UNTRIED POWDER! -)O(- I am not so much surprised that it reacted how it did, as I am that the FIRST one did not blow. _*NOW*_. Was plenty surprised at the time. _(O)_

But I still am MOST concerned with the fact that my loads could vary so much within one batch of rounds, above and beyond where said load was or should have been started. Up to a 1.1gr difference within a 25 round batch is weird and scary. :shock: -)O(-

Stupidity is also weird and scary and if I was reading this instead of writing it, I would be jumping my sh!t too. :wink:

HOPE YOU GUYS ARE LEARNING FROM MY EMBARASSMENT!  Hate to think I put myself through all this again for nothing. :mrgreen:


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

Thank you. Yes, its a grim reminder even for us old timers.

Be safe.


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## wasatchmtnbike (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks a bunch for sharing your experiences and wisdom. I really appreciate all the advice I can get.

This reloading is way more technical than I thought it would be, but that's good, I can handle it. I'm excited to get into it. Just waiting for payday so I can start buying some powder, bullets and primers,....after I read up in the manual, of course.

Artoxx, I have a question.


Artoxx said:


> If I load a batch of ammo it is intended to be of match quality. My WORST load that I ever settled for was five rounds into 1/2" at 100 yards. Most of my loads are closer to 3/8" and I had one batch that measured 1/8" for five consecutive groups.


What are the rifles you load for and shoot? Holy Smokes! That's amazing that you can get groups like that. I'd like to be there someday. I have a Ruger M77 .270, NEF 25-06, 1917 Eddystone 30-06, and a Savage .17 HMR.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

I only own one rifle at the moment, it is a Remington 700BDL Semi Custom. 26" barrel.
It is the gun that I have had the best results with and it will shoot as tight as I am capable of holding it, assuming that I have worked up an accurate load.
My most accurate load ever with this rifle was/is:
100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
52.2gr of H4350
Winchester Nickel plated brass
CCI-250 MAGNUM Large Rifle Primer 
Yes MAGNUM. It was recommended to me by a long time reloader for loads over 50gr for more reliable ignition.
NO I did not use it in the infamous bomb recipe mentioned previously. :wink: 
I had one batch of that that would shoot into 1/8" for 5 shots at 100 yards, and it is consistenly in the 3/8" range.
I will not settle for groups larger than 1/2". If it exceeds that size, I keep working.
I have loads this accurate in both 100gr and 87gr though I am going to have to replace the 87gr recipe with a new one, as I only have three rounds of it left and I am out of the bullets that I used.
My other super accurate rifle was a Winchester model 70 .300 win mag with a 24" barrel that I ended up having to sell to keep food on the table about 10-11 years back.   :evil: 
I had a 165gr and a 180gr load that would also shoot at 1/2" or smaller consistently.
I used to practice with it by shooting pie plates at 1000 yards. It would group within the flat center portion of the plate consistently.
6-8" groups at 1000 yards made me quite satisfied.
I used to win money from stupid people that I worked with. They would swear I was lying and were willing to bet money on it. :mrgreen: 
Paid that gun off two or three times the first year I had it. :twisted: 

Don't practice that far any more, would be challenged by 500 yards.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

ARTOXX,

what caliber is your Remington 700? Those are some nice numbers. Wish I could shoot like that! Just too shakey


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

Sorry, that is the 25.06
Those numbers were obtained on a solid bench with a solid rest, no wind.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Still great grouping! I went out the other day to the Lee Kay to try some new loads on the ol 22 Hornet and was so cold that my groups were nearly 3 inches. YIKES! :shock:


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## wasatchmtnbike (Oct 16, 2007)

Artoxx said:


> I used to practice with it by shooting pie plates at 1000 yards. It would group within the flat center portion of the plate consistently.
> 6-8" groups at 1000 yards made me quite satisfied.


Geez! You and Carlos Hath****!

Amazing!

I've always wanted to do long distance shooting like that. For me now it's a challenge to find a place to shoot. I can go up in the foothills above Pleasant Grove and hope nobody complains too much or I can go out west of Utah Lake and hope to find a spot.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

West of Utah Lake used to be my stomping grounds, only place within reasonable driving distance to get that kind of range. Sadly now if you go 1000 you are more likely to run into a house, than a place to shoot at. :x

Carlos Hath**** is one of the few people who have ever qualified for my HERO list. Mostly I don't admire people that much.
Anybody that can conceive of and manage to pull off, a gerry rigged scope mount on a .50 cal Machine gun AND use it to successfully kill a target at over a mile and a half can be on my list. :shock:

Dude is too awesome for reality. He is the reason I joined the 1000yard club in the first place.

When I was in the Navy, I got "sentenced" to go "play" with a Marine platoon for a week. (Punishment for sending Marines to the infirmary at the enlisted club 4 weekends in a row. :mrgreen: )
One of the fun activities the Platoon Sargeant came up with was showing the _*squid*_ how Marines shoot.
He was miffed that I could hit a silouette target at 500 yards with open sights with an M-16. And downright upset that I could hit a 1000 yard target with a .300 win sniper rig THAT HE _*TOLD*_ ME WAS SIGHTED IN FOR 1000 YARDS, It really was and I hit the target right on the button first round. :wink: Now I ask you, how hard is it to hit a target at a specified distance with a gun that was ALREADY sighted for that distance? Have no idea what he was so irritated about. _(O)_

He thought he was going to get me on the 1500 yard target, but I got *LUCKY!* I raised the muzzle til the target was barely in the f.o.v. and then a litle more using the flag pole as a reference. Let one go and hit right on the edge of the 3" black circle. :mrgreen: 
He cut me loose, told me that he never wanted to see my face again, and that if I ever wanted to transfer to the Marines, I should use his name as a reference.
:rotfl: 
I have been shooting since I was 3. (bb guns) .22's since I was 5, and Centerfire since I was 7.
I owned my very own .22 as of my 10th birthday. And I was hitting crows, magpies, starlings, squirrels, whatever with it at 100 yards plus since I was EIGHT!
Shot my first pheasant ON THE WING, with a single shot .22 the same year it became mine, and repeated this with ducks, geese, tweety birds, doves, more pheasants, running rabbits, jacks, foxes, etc.etc. often enough that when I finally got around to buying a shotgun, my brother asked me what the hell I had wasted money on a shotgun for?
I was like, umm, _Birds? Jackrabbits? etc?_
He replied, I have seen you shoot all of those with your rifle, WHY DO YOU NEED A SHOTGUN?
I laughed as this was nearly 10 years after taking all those birds with my .22. I told him that NOW I planned to do it legally instead of the other way. :wink: 
He could never duplicate it and was mad about it. :mrgreen:
I don't shoot nearly that well anymore and put a scope on the .22 over ten years ago, as I cannot hit as far with my "NEW" eyesight, as I used to.
My shooting isn't what it used to be, but I can still kill something now and then. :mrgreen: 
My signature actually refers to my Shotgun abilities. Which SUCK at best nowadays. :wink:

Only bragging rights I have now are in the past. sigh
:wink:


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## Nueces (Jul 22, 2008)

Artoxx said:


> Dude is too awesome for reality. He is the reason I joined the 1000yard club in the first place.


I like that long range shooting stuff. The hit comes, then the sound will follow up ... 

Impressive shooting!


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

> I don't shoot nearly that well anymore and put a scope on the .22 over ten years ago, as I cannot hit as far with my "NEW" eyesight, as I used to.
> My shooting isn't what it used to be, but I can still kill something now and then.
> My signature actually refers to my Shotgun abilities. Which SUCK at best nowadays.
> 
> Only bragging rights I have now are in the past. sigh


What is this? You are right in your prime man. How I'd love to be your age again. (Now 68.)

I quit hunting big game a few years ago. Here is this young spirit in an old worn out body that gets pretty balky at times. Now that I am retired and have the time, I wish I had the strength, endurance and eyesight I had at your age. I could really have some fun.

Lately I have been shooting mostly handguns, reloading, and casting my own bullets.

Enjoy your youth.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

I still get out and give it my best shot, just got back from a morning duck hunt even as I speak, got _one_ bird in *four* shots, which is better than usual the last couple of years. Though not as good as last Wed. when it was 3 for 3. 

I am just not as financially free as I was back when I could practice to the tune of 100 rounds of rifle a week and a hunt of some kind every other day.

I don't know what happened to my shotgun skills, they were there one year, killing a limit of birds for nearly every ten shells I fired, and then suddenly it was taking a box of shells to accomplish the same thing or worse :roll: . Eyesight changed in 1988 not when my shooting went to crap, so I am at a loss to explain it. Same gun, and everything so it isn't the gun as far as I can determine. 
I even manage to miss moving rabbits nowadays with my famous .22 at under 40 yards which was always a gimme before, and a dead bunny more often than not out to 100. Moving or not. :mrgreen: 
I still hit stationary targets more often than I miss, but the average is WAY down from my preteen through 30's average.

I have not and will not be giving up anytime that I can forsee, so don't worry about that. I am still TRYING to be a danger to the game population at large, just not quite as talented at it as I was. :wink: 
Hope I am still dedicated to the cause when I am 68 or even 88. :mrgreen:


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