# Which press?



## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

Okay, I'm just going to do it now. I have been wanting to reload for some time and have been watching and reading about it for a while now. 

I have looked at some of the kits but there is always this stuff that I find no real use for or it is just not the quality for precision reloading. Rather than waste money on useless items I'm going to buy most everything on its own.

After looking at many of the presses out there it I still can't make up my mind. It looks like many use the RCBS but they are a little more money. I know you get what you pay for but I'm really taking a look at the Lee press with the quick change bushing at it would be much easier to change things in and out and set dies up for one round and not have to change things around too much once they are set to where they need to be.

So you guys that reload what do you use and why? Is the Lee a good press or should I focus more on getting and RCBS or something else. Can you use RCBS dies in a lee press or lee dies in are RCBS press?

Thanks for the help


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## NHS (Sep 7, 2007)

The dies are interchangable. If you are looking for a single stage press, get the RCBS Rockchucker and then pass it down to your grandkids someday. You'll never need to get another one. It is built like a rock.


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## Wb1247 (May 29, 2011)

Agreed, I've had my RCBS press for over 10 years. Still works great and has yet to fail. No complaints here. Don't know much about the others but I would buy this one again.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I also recommend the RCBS Rockchucker, but I would also recommend the kit instead of buying things as you need them. That is unless you already have a scale, powder dispenser, case tools, and a reloading manual. I bought a kit 45 years ago and two of the things that I don't use anymore are the manual and loading block that came with the kit, but I do still refer to the manual at times.


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

NHS said:


> The dies are interchangable. If you are looking for a single stage press, get the RCBS Rockchucker and then pass it down to your grandkids someday. You'll never need to get another one. It is built like a rock.


Yep. Thats where i got mine from.



cklspencer said:


> it would be much easier to change things in and out and set dies up for one round and not have to change things around too much once they are set to where they need to be.


I am not familiar with the bushing but an rcbs is not hard at all to change out dies or shell holders. Once you set a die up it is good to go. Bullet seating dies need adjusting for different bullets but it only takes a few minutes.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

I would also recommend the RCBS Rockchucker in the kit form so you get some of the other stuff you need at a slightly reduced price. Like most, I have used mine for a couple of decades or more without issue.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=646599
Oddly enough, RCBS seems to be more popular here in this area than nationally. If you look at national forums there is more of the other brands, especially Lee.

Probably that is because Lee is cheaper - in fact the cheapest way to go is with the Lee Challenger Anniversary kit for around $100. Sometimes their stuff is a bit _too_ cheaply made, but on the whole it is plenty good to start with. Some of their stuff is unique and good to have - like their Factory Crimp dies for certain cartridges. One interesting thing is that their rather cheap Perfect Powder Measure meters long-grain extruded powder types better than any other measure on the market. However it tends to spill ball powder a bit more... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=423081

Any press you get will accept the industry standard 7/8"-14 threaded dies from any other die maker.


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

NHS said:


> The dies are interchangable. If you are looking for a single stage press, get the RCBS Rockchucker and then pass it down to your grandkids someday. You'll never need to get another one. It is built like a rock.


this is the one i have and i really love it its easy to use and my boy loves to reload with me and he is excited because he knows he will get it someday


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Don't be afraid to look at the Hornady offerings. I've had my Pacific 007 for 30+ years with absolutely zero issues.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

cklspencer: 

I sent you a PM


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## Briar Patch (Feb 1, 2010)

RCBS has a $50 mail in rebate too when you spend $300 on their stuff.
Here's a link to a copy of the form.

http://media.midwayusa.com/pdf/Coupons/rcbs-save-50.pdf


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Too bad you didnt start this thread a few days ago, 12 Volt Man was selling one on KSL and Utahbirddogs.

I'll echo the Rockchucker. Great tool there and a starter kit isnt terribly priced. You may also want to look into buying another reloading manual for some cross references. I like the Hornady and Nosler manuals the best. The RCBS kit comes with a Speer manual which is okay, but I tend to look at the other two more frequently


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

the internet is also a great tool for reloading. All major bullet makers have web sites and most offer load data. my favorite site for load data is http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp I have used this for a handfull of loads and so far so good.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Hodgdon has lawyer fever. Compare their load data with info from 10 and 20 years ago. Its changed dramatically over the years.


-DallanC


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Hodgdon has lawyer fever. Compare their load data with info from 10 and 20 years ago. Its changed dramatically over the years.
> -DallanC


I can understand why you feel that way, when I look at some of the data that I know is low (_in MY experience with MY guns_) I sometimes question the various sources too - but that really isn't the correct answer. *There is no such simple explanation*. I posted the Sierra part of this on another thread and maybe it will explain things a bit more and what I do with my reload work-ups to double check the data in my own guns and something you can do too:

You need to realize something about the data that appears in the various handloading manuals. Sierra puts it this way: 
"...reloading manuals are not carved in stone. Think of a reloading manual as a *REPORT*, and you'll be in a much better position to understand this. In essence, a reloading manual says, "_We tried this particular component combination, and these are the results we obtained_." When you duplicate the load shown in a manual, you're using a different rifle (even if it is the same make, model, and caliber), a different lot of powder (even if it is the same brand and type), a different lot of cases (even if they are from the same manufacturer, etc.), a different lot of, well... you get the idea. There is an amazing number of variables that effect any load combination. With the difference in the manuals, you're just seeing first hand examples. Again, start low and work your load up."

Powder lots of the same powder can show some slight variations. In addition, over time the actual burn rate can change slightly as well. In the economy of today, powder importers and manufacturers sometimes change where the powder is made. Hodgdon imports some of its powders from Australia and other countries. Accurate had had some powders like #5 switch countries several times. Certain powders have been reformulated for various improvements. Hodgdon H-4831sc has been reformulated from the original to be a "short cut" powder that meters much better than the original. It has also be reformulated to be a "Extreme" powder - _i.e._ temperature insensitive. It is actually amazing that the current powder is as close as it is to the same powder from an earlier era/different manufacturer.

Sometimes bullet manufacturers change the hardness of the guilding metal jacket, or make a subtle change to the shape and bearing surface. Hardness of the lead core is another contributing factor.

Of course the case used has a direct bearing on the data as they usually vary in capacity and hardness from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Keeping in mind that data is help to SAAMI pressure standards and the pressure is virtually always tested in tight SAAMI chambers with spec barrels. Your rifle/pistol may have a larger chamber, different throat, etc. than the Universal Receiver test outfit the book uses.
In addition, the tester must use proper SAAMI protocol. There is some difference between cartridges tested by the older CUP Copper Crusher method and the newer electronic inducer PSI system which gives a better view of the total pressure curve as opposed to just peak pressure.
In addition, there is not really a set correlation between CUP and PSI.

Therefore Hodgdon, Sierra, Speer, Hornady, Lyman, Nosler, Ramshot, and Hodgdon books are REPORTS - "_We tried this particular component combination, and these are the results we obtained_."

The best tool a handloader has to monitor their loads to avoid excessive pressure is a chronograph - BTW this is the advice of the chief ballistician of Ramshot Powders.
Pick your bullet weight/type and the specific powder. Consult several manuals - note both the maximum velocity and powder charge - AVERAGE out the results and work towards that. This tends to eliminate the extra high or low stuff and gives you a better picture of what is going on. Work up your loads and pay close attention to chronograph readings as you do. If you're getting muzzle velocities noticeably higher than is common for that cartridge, powder and bullet, as either tested by factory ammo or the velocity indicated in reloading manuals - then your pressures are higher than they should be. It's that simple. If you work up loads using that rule, then you don't need to look at fired cases, because the pressure will never get high enough to form ejector-hole marks on the case heads or blow primers.
In effect, you can play ballistician yourself!

********************************************************

Just my opinion? Not really, I can learn from the real pros:

"*Muzzle velocity for a selected load is a function of the mean effective pressure and the barrel length.*"
_ - Lloyd E. Brownell, Ph.D. - Firearms Pressure Factors, Wolfe Publishing Co._

...*next to real pressure equipment, a chronograph is the best guide to excessive pressure* for the home handloader. There are no "magic barrels" that allow another 100 to 200 fps!
_ - Handloader, June 2004, "More Pressure Experiments", John Barsness.
_
Think of the firearm as a single-stroke internal combustion engine with an expendable piston, the bullet. Everything else being equal, a certain average pressure will always produce the same velocity. This means that, *everything else being equal, if the velocity changes so did the pressure*...
_ - Handloader editor Dave Scovill._

My yardstick for pressure is a combination of chronograph readings and primer pockets... *The speed readings are easy: don't expect to get much more or much less than what you see published*, and pay close attention to the rifle barrel specs the data came from... 
_ - GUNS Magazine, May 2010, "Reloading Puzzles & pieces thereof", Glen Zediker.
_
Because *velocity is the by-product of pressure*, a chronograph can, albeit indirectly, give you an insight into pressure being developed by a given load. While a chronograph is no substitute for a pressure gun, your velocity data can alert you to potentially dangerous pressures before you're stuck trying to super glue your receiver back together. 
_ - Barnes Bullets #2, Ronin Colman, "What Do You Do With A Chronograph?"_

One of the most valuable applications for a chronograph is in keeping loads safer. Loading manuals provide a guide, generally suggesting a starting and maximum load. These load recipes are determined by careful loading and pressure testing. Maximum loads are based upon industry standard chamber pressure criteria. Generally speaking, *with a given set of components, the higher the velocity, the higher the chamber pressure that is required to produce the velocity. If one of your loads produces velocity in excess of what a loading manual indicates, you can also assume that the pressure is in excess.* If the velocity of one of your loads equals the maximum listed velocity in the loading manual (with a comparable barrel length), it's prudent not to exceed the powder charge level you're using, even though the quantity of powder you're using might be less than what is suggested as the maximum quantity in the manual.
_ - Accurate Arms Loading Guide #1 - Chronographing Metallic Ammunition - Rick Jamison.
_


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

Lawyer fever or not its still a very viable and usefull tool. It has a very comprehensive list of calibers.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The big thing with manuals is that you need to understand what you are doing when you use them. A few years ago I bought a Barnes #3 manual and while reading through it I saw a big err. The load data for a 7mm Remington mag for the 140 grain XLC bullet was loaded hotter than it was for the 7mm Weatherby mag. I sent them a email about it and they sent me back the correct load data for that bullet. Some times it makes me wonder just how many other mistakes show up in a manual that nobody ever catches. I do know that when loading for my .340 Weatherby I have to be real leery of the load data in just about any manual or what is listed on line. For an example I have one load for it with a maximum load of a powder at 3376 fps. When I was 2 grains off I was already pushing the speed to 3400 fps and starting to show signs of pressure before I back it off a ways.


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