# More changes coming to Utah hunting laws---2014



## goofy elk

Heres a 'heads up' yo some of the change's that are well om their way.

Thiese are on the Wild life boards action item's list, being worked on.
The currant prefrence point system in being reviewed.
There is a possiblity a 'one point system' could be adopted for deer,
This would be a mojor change, any thought's ??

*Spring 2013 - Target Date - Preference Point Presentation
MOTION:​*​​​​I move that we ask the Division to give a presentation on the preference point system relative to the new 30
unit deer plan.
Assigned to: Judi Tutorow / Lindy Varney
Action: Under Study
Status: Final update to be presented June 5, 2014​
Placed on Action Log: June 6, 2012

Here are a few more items on the list:

*Late Fall 2013 - Target Date - Additional muzzleloader Pronghorn hunting opportunity
MOTION​*​​​​I move that we ask the division to study additional muzzleloader pronghorn hunting opportunity as presented
in the November RAC meetings by Mr. Zundel. This is to be placed on the action log.
Assigned to: Bill Bates
Action: Under Study
Status: Pending​
Placed on Action Log: December 6, 2012

*Summer 2014 - Target Date - Group Applications for Limited-Entry turkey permits, sage-grouse and sharp-tail grouse
permits.
MOTION​*​​​​: I move for the DWR to present a proposal to the RACs that group applications be allowed for the limited entry
turkey, sage-grouse, and sharp-tailed grouse hunts.
Assigned to: Jason Robinson
Action: Under Study
Status: Pending​
Placed on Action Log: June 4, 2013

*Summer 2014 - Target Date - Additional Benefits for Limited-Entry turkey tag holders
MOTION:​*​​​​I move that we have placed on the action log that the Division look into the possibility and feasibility of a
limited entry turkey permit holder who is unsuccessful to turn in their limited entry tag and purchase a general season
tag.
Assigned to: Jason Robinson
Action: Under Study
Status: Pending​
Placed on Action Log: May 3, 2012

*Late Fall 2013 - Target Date - Mineral Mountain Range
MOTION:​*​​​​I move that we ask the division to study the issues and concerns of making the Mineral Mountain Range
(west side of Beaver unit) a limited entry buck deer unit and that it be discussed during the revision of the deer plan with
the Deer Management Committee. This is to be placed on the action log.
Assigned to: Bill Bates
Action: Under Study
Status: Pending​
Placed on Action Log: December 6, 2012

*Fall 2014 - Target Date - Management Buck Tags on the Book Cliffs
MOTION:​*​​​​I move that the Division be asked to review the buck management tags on the Book Cliffs. People are
always reporting the presence of big two and three point bucks in that area. Perhaps these permits could be given to
youth. This is to be addressed during the revision of the Deer Management Plan in 2014.
Assigned to: Bill Bates
Action: Under Study
Status: Pending​
Placed on Action Log: December 1, 2011


----------



## Fowlmouth

In regards to the LE Turkey permit, the DWR should just allow those that didn't fill their tag to carry it over to the general season. Why should they have to buy another tag to hunt the general season? Oh wait more money...:-?


----------



## outdoorser

Yeah i agree fowlmouth. But like you say, they just want more money.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

they could also just leave the law as is. I really see no problem with wanting more money for increased opportunity. For those that are against paying the extra money it would be their choice not to do so. No different than putting in for a premium tag IMO.


----------



## johnnycake

I kinda like the one point idea for deer, truthfully, I like all of those proposed changes.


----------



## Fowlmouth

Mr Muleskinner said:


> they could also just leave the law as is. I really see no problem with wanting more money for increased opportunity. For those that are against paying the extra money it would be their choice not to do so. No different than putting in for a premium tag IMO.


I understand your point. I just don't think it's that big of a deal to let the LE permit holders carry over to the general season. There's only so many of them anyway, and they can only harvest one Turkey. Does it matter when they shoot it? It's almost like saying well if you want to hunt the extended archery season you need to turn in your permit and buy another one. Or if you want to hunt the extended goose season you need a special permit. Oh geez! I probably just gave the board new ideas for next year.:tape:


----------



## Dahlmer

I like the idea of eliminating separate point systems for GS and LE deer units. Not sure how they implement it though. I see no value in the a management hunt for the Books. They kill enough bucks there.


----------



## Vanilla

The motion is very basic on the preference point system. What exactly are they wanting the presentation to cover? Not knowing the discussion that took place before the motion, it's tough to have an opinion. 

As far as turkey's go, I say if you want to hunt a second season, you buy a second tag. That just seems fair to me.


----------



## goofy elk

The BIGGEST impacted from the deer point change to ONE LE system would be , 

NO longer being able to apply for general deer PLUS LE deer, elk ,or antelope .....

You can ONLY apply for ONE LE tag , species ......

I personaly believe this would pull ALOT of apps out of the LE elk & antelope draws.


----------



## Kwalk3

Thanks for keeping us posted on the proposed changes. It'll be interesting to see what gets put in place.


----------



## Springville Shooter

goofy elk said:


> The BIGGEST impacted from the deer point change to ONE LE system would be ,
> 
> NO longer being able to apply for general deer PLUS LE deer, elk ,or antelope .....
> 
> You can ONLY apply for ONE LE tag , species ......
> 
> I personaly believe this would pull ALOT of apps out of the LE elk & antelope draws.


So what do you do, combine a guys LE deer points with their general points? I'm not sold on this, but I can see some benefits. It will get guys who want to hunt deer every year out of the LE picture, and it will get LE trophy hunters off the generals. Tough pill to swallow having to wait many years to hunt antlered game if you want to hunt bulls but maybe that's where we are at? What's next? The same with the general any bull units. Pick your animal and stick with it.------SS


----------



## goofy elk

^^^^ A definate possiblity of were Utah's draws could be heading ! ^^^^^^


----------



## blazingsaddle

Goofy you bring up an interesting point. 
I do not at all like the idea of being only able to apply for one species. Certainly they would separate deer from the other LE animals, right? This would be a massive blow to all hunters! If anything, they should consider this principal with elk.

Also not a fan of making the west side of the beaver unit a LE area. I know the sfw has been pushing for this for a number years now. And I quote, " it has easy boundaries, and great genetics" 
Enough with the LE areas. Although, with the 30 units now, does it reall matter what it's labeled, LE or general? It's all LE now. The only difference is the numbers of hunters they allow to hunt on the given unit. 
My thoughts on the turkey stuff, who cares about turkey's?:mrgreen:


----------



## silentstalker

My guess is guys would still apply for the premium or LE tags as their first choice and then draw the general units as a second choice and not lose their points. 

May not change the odds much??


----------



## Springville Shooter

silentstalker said:


> My guess is guys would still apply for the premium or LE tags as their first choice and then draw the general units as a second choice and not lose their points.
> 
> May not change the odds much??


It would change the odds a ton because all those putting in for elk or antelope would be out of the pool. We're talking thousand of applicants out of the deer pool. Unfortunately, most of those folks would not draw an elk tag and would be on the couch being pissed off, until the general elk season where they would be pissed off in the woods. Most of the benefit would lean toward the "general" area deer hunters who would not have to compete with nearly as many people to hunt their area each year.--------SS


----------



## DallanC

goofy elk said:


> ^^^^ A definate possiblity of were Utah's draws could be heading ! ^^^^^^


Yes! Less tags and less opportunity!

-DallanC


----------



## elkfromabove

goofy elk said:


> The BIGGEST impacted from the deer point change to ONE LE system would be ,
> 
> NO longer being able to apply for general deer PLUS LE deer, elk ,or antelope .....
> 
> You can ONLY apply for ONE LE tag , species ......
> 
> I personaly believe this would pull ALOT of apps out of the LE elk & antelope draws.


 Let me see if I have this right! If the current two deer point systems change to one LE system, you could only draw one LE/OIL tag, but could still buy a general over-the-counter elk tag per year, meaning you could end up with two buck/bull tags (unless your LE tag is also an elk tag, in which case you would only be allowed one bull elk tag).

But then when general elk tags also go to a combined LE draw system then you could only draw (if you're lucky) ONE buck /bull tag per year regardless of the species.

Did I miss something or is this idea as smelly as it sounds?


----------



## Vanilla

So you're saying the proposal is that if I want to stay in the LE elk pool I could no longer draw a general season deer tag? Am I understanding that correctly? 

Or are we just saying for deer you pick general or LE, no longer able to play both cards?


----------



## DallanC

TS30 said:


> So you're saying the proposal is that if I want to stay in the LE elk pool I could no longer draw a general season deer tag? Am I understanding that correctly?


Exactly, you put in for elk OR deer, but not both.



> Or are we just saying for deer you pick general or LE, no longer able to play both cards?


There wont BE a general, it would all be LE. No way in hell hunters of this state will let this get approved when they understand that.

-DallanC


----------



## Brookie

It's a good idea if it means you apply for limited entry or general deer but not both, like some people do. Bad idea if you have to choose a species. Stupid idea


----------



## DallanC

Brookie said:


> It's a good idea if it means you apply for limited entry or general deer but not both, like some people do. Bad idea if you have to choose a species. Stupid idea


Uhh that is the point of whats being discussed, doing away with the preference points and the entire state is LE points for deer. As you can only put in for 1 LE species, it would force you to pick deer OR elk (or antelope).

Its the DWR so odds are they change it so you can put in for LE elk AND LE deer if this goes forward. Really cant see the other proposed change going forward.

-DallanC


----------



## Critter

I would be willing to bet that if they do get rid of the 2 point system then they whole state will be considered general tag areas but a lot of the units will take more points than others. I know that no one wants to hear it but look at Colorado. They have one point system and if you want to hunt every year you can in quite a few units, but if you want to hunt the trophy areas then you will be putting in for multiple years before you even think of drawing.


----------



## Vanilla

Having to pick between LE elk and general deer would be a total disaster, IMO. I don't see that happening in a million years. Too much license revenue left on the table, on top of being just an utterly TERRIBLE idea.


----------



## Dahlmer

TS30 said:


> Having to pick between LE elk and general deer would be a total disaster, IMO. I don't see that happening in a million years. Too much license revenue left on the table, on top of being just an utterly TERRIBLE idea.


It won't have any impact on license revenue. The same number of tags will be issued regardless. They may lose some revenue from applications, but I doubt they will continue to make elk and deer applications an either/or game.

In fact, it appears to me that this may be the end of the road for lifetime license holders and potentially the dedicated hunter programs as well. If all deer hunts are classified as LE rather than GS it provides a lot of wiggle room.


----------



## Vanilla

Dahlmer said:


> It won't have any impact on license revenue. The same number of tags will be issued regardless. They may lose some revenue from applications, but I doubt they will continue to make elk and deer applications an either/or game.


I am skeptical this would actually be the case. I just don't see any way they can maintain the level of participation on each side if everyone had to choose either elk or deer every year. This would be a significant change from having to choose between LE species. I just can't see it happening. But I have been wrong before, especially with trying to guess what government is going to do.



Dahlmer said:


> In fact, it appears to me that this may be the end of the road for lifetime license holders and potentially the dedicated hunter programs as well. If all deer hunts are classified as LE rather than GS it provides a lot of wiggle room.


Not sure about dedicated hunter stuff, but that could pose some interesting legal issues for the lifetime license holders like myself.


----------



## swbuckmaster

The heck with lifetime liscence holders. They were guaranteed a general deer tag. No more general deer units no more lifetime general deer tags.


----------



## Vanilla

Completely changing the hunting system in Utah, not allowing you to hunt elk and deer at the same time seems like a reasonable response to stick it to those dirty lifetime licensees.


----------



## Muley73

Yes yes, it will be interesting.............


On to step 2!!!


----------



## bowhunt3r4l1f3

I'll be honest, I'd be quite surprised if this actually gets approved. Though anything is possible, I just see an uproar coming from the general public. We shall see...


----------



## Fishrmn

swbuckmaster said:


> The heck with lifetime liscence holders. They were guaranteed a general deer tag. No more general deer units no more lifetime general deer tags.


Yeah, let's take away what you've bought and paid for, and see how you like it. You seem to have a burr under your blanket about lifetime licenses.



> R657-17-4. General Deer Permits.
> 
> (1) The Division will issue a general buck deer permit to each lifetime licensee prior to the big game general hunting season, provided:


The Wildlife Board doesn't have the authority to deny them a tag. It might end up that the roughly 4,000 lifetime license holders get a general season deer tag, and the rest of the deer tags are LE.

⫸<{{{{{⦅°>


----------



## Catherder

I favor a "one point system" for mule deer. I believe it can help separate the "trophy guys" from the "regular" hunters, benefiting both. 

However, reading these responses warrants a couple of comments.

1. Why is it automatically assumed that changing the deer draw will radically alter elk hunting draws? I have advocated still listing our "premium" deer units by a special designation and stipulating that if you apply for one of these, you cannot apply for other LE hunts in other species. If that is done, we functionally don't change the dynamic of LE draws at all, except that guys can't apply for a "LE" deer and general deer at the same time.

2. They could change it so you could put in for any deer unit and still allow you to put in for LE elk or pronghorn too. That would increase the #'s of applicants for these other species, but not be the end of the world.

3. The material Goofy posted just talked about a review of the deer preference point system. Maybe all they want to do is change from the preference point setup to the bonus point system and thus removing the loophole with the general deer draw that allows you to draw a general deer tag, yet still accumulate preference points by applying for difficult to draw units. I favor changes in this area. 

I just don't see anything radical being proposed here. However, TS30 has a point. You never know with government...............


----------



## Springville Shooter

swbuckmaster said:


> The heck with lifetime liscence holders. They were guaranteed a general deer tag. No more general deer units no more lifetime general deer tags.


I have thought long and hard about this. If the state can't keep their end of the lifetime license deal, I think they should have to refund the participant the entire amount making all previous licenses and tags free. It was a bad idea and may not be sustainable in the future but I personally am not ok with sticking it to these guys. In other states, they give the lifetime holder an application each year not necessarily a tag. No easy solution here but there is a good chance that everyone will have to sacrifice, even lifetime guys. I was told by a knowledgeable person that the agreement was for a general tag, if there are no more general tags the agreement could very well be void.--------SS


----------



## Vanilla

Saying all tags are limited entry would be a crafty way of trying to swallow up the rule with an exception. However, I don't think it would work. I think there are arguments to say renaming it is just a way to violate a valid contract when in principle it is the same general system with a different name and performance by the state would be demanded. I laugh that an extremely small portion of the deer hunting population has all the sudden become public enemy number 1 for this issue. Seems weird...But still glad I was smart enough to buy one of these when I was 14! 

I agree that changing the deer season doesn't need to mean a change to elk. I think I could get on board with a system that says you can apply for LE deer or general deer, but you can't do both. I would adamantly oppose any system that said you had to pick between elk and deer (other than if you're doing both LE) each year. That is just a terrible idea.


----------



## Critter

It would be interesting to get someone from the division involved to find out just how many lifetime licenses were sold and how many tags for them are let out each year. From what I heard there were only around 3500 of them sold and I am sure there are a number of them that have gave up hunting and are a non factor.


----------



## Catherder

TS30 said:


> Saying all tags are limited entry would be a crafty way of trying to swallow up the rule with an exception. However, I don't think it would work. I think there are arguments to say renaming it is just a way to violate a valid contract when in principle it is the same general system with a different name and performance by the state would be demanded. I laugh that an extremely small portion of the deer hunting population has all the sudden become public enemy number 1 for this issue. Seems weird...But still glad I was smart enough to buy one of these when I was 14!
> 
> I agree that changing the deer season doesn't need to mean a change to elk. I think I could get on board with a system that says you can apply for LE deer or general deer, but you can't do both. I would adamantly oppose any system that said you had to pick between elk and deer (other than if you're doing both LE) each year. That is just a terrible idea.


One other benefit that maintaining the designations of "premium" or "LE" for our current LE units in a one point deer system would be to keep the lifetime owners from claiming all the premium Henrys and Pauns deer tags every year. In fact, it probably would be required for this reason.

The next question would be what to do for lifetime licensees seeking LE deer tags in a one point deer setup. As I see it, there would be 2 ways to do it.

1. The lifetime owners can apply for premium units and accumulate points as they currently do now, even though they get tags every year.

or

2. A lifetime owner applying for a LE tag will have their points reset to zero every time they accept their general tag. They thus still get their annual tag, but for them to accumulate points that would enhance odds for a premium hunt, they would need to voluntarily not accept their tag in a given year/years. Or they could accept the tag every year and apply for LE deer, but they'd be applying as someone with zero points. (I think this would be more fair and not violate the agreement with the lifetime licensees)


----------



## Vanilla

It absolutely would not be fair to have just a single season like mentioned and allow the lifetime holders to claim the Henry and Pauns tags every year. Obviously you'd still be in a waiting pool as there are more lifetime license holders than tags. But nobody without a lifetime could ever draw those. That simply would not be fair, even if it meant a great benefit for me. Those hunts need to remain out there for all to have a chance, IMO. 

I would be okay with your option of saying we only have one point system, and as a lifetime holder you have to decide to put in the LE draw or receive your tag in the general hunt. That is a system that allows us to receive the benefit we paid for and also remain fair to all at hand. That is something I could support. It may essentially mean that I will never hunt LE deer in my life as I am not sure I would want to go 10 years without a deer tag. If I wanted to jump in the LE deer pool I would have the choice, but I would have to voluntarily give up the general tag that year to do so. That would be a tough choice. But it is the same choice everyone else would have to make as well. I would be okay with that. Seems like a fair system.


----------



## ridgetop

TS30 said:


> It absolutely would not be fair to have just a single season like mentioned and allow the lifetime holders to claim the Henry and Pauns tags every year. Obviously you'd still be in a waiting pool as there are more lifetime license holders than tags. But nobody without a lifetime could ever draw those. That simply would not be fair, even if it meant a great benefit for me. Those hunts need to remain out there for all to have a chance, IMO.
> 
> .


That's why there needs to be a cap put on each unit. No more than 15% can go to the lifetime tag holders, just like the DH is now. With the lifetime tag holder getting 5 choices, they would always get a tag somewhere.


----------



## goofy elk

There's a handfull of guys on here that ' get it ' .......
And were it's all headed ,,,
And it may take 6-8 years to get it all the kinks worked out of
a 'one point system' for Utahs deer draws, but its headed there.....

Just as Opt 2 , It was actualy proposed the first time back in 2004, 
alot of guys dont even know that !!!
It took 6-7 years to get that deal done ...

I see the same thing happening here with the deer points..;-)..


----------



## DallanC

Oh more than a handful here "get it", we just don't agree with it. 

-DallanC


----------



## Vanilla

So Goofy, if you 'get it' then explain it to us all that don't. You keep talking in code. Let's hear it!


----------



## Springville Shooter

TS, no offense, but you are in a group that is similar to what Social Security recipients will be in a few years. The govt simply made an agreement that may not be sustainable. If all tags become LE basically and are included in the draw pool with existing LE tags, how can anyone be guaranteed a tag each year? I can see a guaranteed license and application. What do you think about a buy out where you are reimbursed the total amount of your lifetime license making all previous licenses and tags free? Fair or unfair?-------SS


----------



## Vanilla

SS- 

I get the point you are trying to make but I think it is a poor analogy. Social security is going bankrupt. There isn't going to be anything left in the pool to distribute. If the herds die off and there are no tags to give, this analogy works. But there were 70,000 deer tags drawn/sold this year. So the analogy doesn't work. That would be like saying we only have $500 million for 2014 so nobody is getting anything. 

As for the buy-out, nope. That license is about much more than the statutory mandated deer tag each year. Like I said a couple pages ago---lifetime licenses aren't the problem with Utah's deer draw system. Not sure why they all the sudden became public enemy #1 here, but that's just a distraction from the real issues with the draw. There are ways to fix the issue without opening up the state to a lawsuit.


----------



## swbuckmaster

There are ways to fix the issue without opening up the state to a law suit and that is what there doing there saying you can have your general tag but you can't apply for le deer, elk or antelope. In all fairness this will cut the bonus point butt plug in half and its not picking on you.


----------



## goofy elk

The problem with the lifetime liceness is they are one of the stepping
stones blocking the way to a single point draw sytem for deer permits.

And SW is correct, The general deer PP system we have now is contributing to
the LE bonus point creep considerably ...........

If hunters were only able to apply for one spices---Deer, elk, or antelope,
Elk , antelope, even the harder to draw deer tags would become much easier
to draw !!!!!!

Why? Because 50% of the guys applying for BOTH general and LE would
choose to hunt their traditional deer areas .... thus, pulling them OUT of
the ' trophy type ' draws......


----------



## Springville Shooter

TS30 said:


> SS-
> 
> I get the point you are trying to make but I think it is a poor analogy. Social security is going bankrupt. There isn't going to be anything left in the pool to distribute. If the herds die off and there are no tags to give, this analogy works. But there were 70,000 deer tags drawn/sold this year. So the analogy doesn't work. That would be like saying we only have $500 million for 2014 so nobody is getting anything.
> 
> As for the buy-out, nope. That license is about much more than the statutory mandated deer tag each year. Like I said a couple pages ago---lifetime licenses aren't the problem with Utah's deer draw system. Not sure why they all the sudden became public enemy #1 here, but that's just a distraction from the real issues with the draw. There are ways to fix the issue without opening up the state to a lawsuit.


I think the analogy works because the product agreed upon doesn't really exist anymore. The 70,000 tags available are general in name only. They get distributed via a draw system and the leftovers are slim. Reality is that these are draw tags with different levels of demand....not general at all. Back in the day you were guaranteed a general deer tag....the same as anyone else would be able to buy annually over the counter. Now, several of the general areas could take 3+ preference points to get. So explain why the lifetime deal should give you preference in this process. The product you made a deal for doesn't exist anymore. Why Utah didn't have the foresight to see this beats me. Another fix might be to make the application fee the full price of the tag. Then you could get that paid for each year and it would either equate to a tag or a point and you would still get your benefit.

I don't think that anyone considers lifetime holder an enemy but many wonder what the hell the state was thinking. From my experience, it will be a good idea to try to flesh out the best solutions because I don't see the current system staying the same for many more years.

Lastly, I don't want to see anyone get screwed, but I also see that it is plainly unfair when lifetime license holders get WAY more than the original deal....AKA when they get to side step a draw process that everyone else has to live with. Draw tags are not general tags. What's the solution? -----------SS


----------



## Critter

Lets say that they do away with the lifetime license, then what are they going to do with the dedicated hunter tags? The way that I look at it they would be in the same boat.


----------



## Springville Shooter

Critter said:


> Lets say that they do away with the lifetime license, then what are they going to do with the dedicated hunter tags? The way that I look at it they would be in the same boat.


I'm not an expert on the DH system, but from my understanding it would work itself out within a few years because incoming DH folks would have to draw their specific area at the onset of their program. These drawings and odds would correspond with the demand for each unit. Sure, you would get two tags in a unit if you drew it, but you would have to compete with everyone else at the onset. In other words, you couldn't just choose the Thousand Lakes and take it, you would have to draw it meaning you might get your second or third choice for your DH area or you might not draw at all and would collect a preference point like all the rest of the unsuccessful applicants.---------SS


----------



## swbuckmaster

Peay has said he is going to make all the units look like the bookcliffs. Your just seeing the beginning of it. One bite at a time the pie is consumed. Inch by inch the camel's nose and body creep into the tent.
Whether you like it or not we have no control over it.


----------



## Critter

Springville Shooter said:


> I'm not an expert on the DH system, but from my understanding it would work itself out within a few years because incoming DH folks would have to draw their specific area at the onset of their program. These drawings and odds would correspond with the demand for each unit. Sure, you would get two tags in a unit if you drew it, but you would have to compete with everyone else at the onset. In other words, you couldn't just choose the Thousand Lakes and take it, you would have to draw it meaning you might get your second or third choice for your DH area or you might not draw at all and would collect a preference point like all the rest of the unsuccessful applicants.---------SS


But what about the second and or third year that they are in it if they don't harvest a deer? That along with the dedicated hunter being able to hunt three seasons a year on the same tag.


----------



## Springville Shooter

Maybe an allotment, I don't know. It is all a can of worms, but it is wide open. Dividing the units was the beginning, now, as tag numbers are adjusted, I believe some of the units will become comparable to LE tags to draw. I also foresee LE and general tags being combined into one pool eventually. Not saying I'm happy about it, just see it coming. What if DH was discontinued all together?----------SS


----------



## Critter

The DH program would be the biggest problem from what I can see if they went to a single type of point system. Can you imagine a DH drawing a Henry Mountain deer tag and being able to hunt 3 seasons for 3 years to take a deer? 

I also believe that there are a lot more DH than there are LL out there. But then you get the hunters that have both a LL and are a DH. I know that I have ran into quite a few that have both. 

It's going to be a can of worms if they do decide to change over at least for the first few years of it.


----------



## swbuckmaster

If they keep the units managed with buck doe ratios they have now and keep the same general units they have now you will never see a dedicated or lifetime liscense holder hunt the Henry mtns one time let alone three years in a row. 

Why? 

Because the henry mtns is a le unit! A general deer, dedicated, or lifetime applicant can't apply for a le unit if they already applied for the general area.


----------



## DallanC

swbuckmaster said:


> Peay has said he is going to make all the units look like the bookcliffs. Your just seeing the beginning of it. One bite at a time the pie is consumed. Inch by inch the camel's nose and body creep into the tent.
> Whether you like it or not we have no control over it.


+1000

See once EVERY unit is like the books, then the SWF can lobby for even more tags they can sell at the convention, they will make soo much money based on the direction we are headed.

-DallanC


----------



## klbzdad

^^^ Yup...and YUP!


----------



## Critter

swbuckmaster said:


> If they keep the units managed with buck doe ratios they have now and keep the same general units they have now you will never see a dedicated or lifetime liscense holder hunt the Henry mtns one time let alone three years in a row.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because the henry mtns is a le unit! A general deer, dedicated, or lifetime applicant can't apply for a le unit if they already applied for the general area.


If they go to a single point system weather it is bonus points or preference points they are going to have to shake up the whole system and all bets on what they end up doing are going to be off.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Critter said:


> If they go to a single point system weather it is bonus points or preference points they are going to have to shake up the whole system and all bets on what they end up doing are going to be off.


They will still have to have a general unit managed for low buck doe ratios for lifers and people that want opportunity. They can still have le units. Git rid of how the bonus point issues half the tags to people with no points and only issue tags to the top point holders. This makes the whole system a one point system called preference points. You just have to decide how you want to use your preference points.

The dedicated system could go to hunt all three weapons in one year. Meaning you only get to hunt one year not three.


----------



## Vanilla

Springville Shooter said:


> Another fix might be to make the application fee the full price of the tag. Then you could get that paid for each year and it would either equate to a tag or a point and you would still get your benefit.


I do not support this as I think the system can work just fine by leaving lifetime licenses and DH in place. I will say, though, that although I don't love the idea, it is not totally unreasonable if the entire system gets turned on its head.

I would be okay with what was mentioned earlier: A one point system with general and LE units still in place. Each applicant must choose which pool they want to be in each year, including lifetime and DH. If you choose LE and want to build up points, you are doing so of your own choosing and will not get a general tag under any circumstance. Once you receive a tag, regardless of unit or if it is general or LE, your points reset to zero. This would also have to mean no waiting periods for deer, which I'm okay with if the system went this way. This is a good solution, IMO, and would help with the bottle neck for deer tags.

Goofy, question for you on the system that is coming whether we like it of not: So you have to choose your species between deer and LE elk. No more LE elk and general deer. What if you choose deer, can you still buy general elk tags, such as OTC any bull/spike tags? Or is it completely pick your species? I still don't see this happening because although it really would help with point pools on each side, it would cut into the Division's bottom line. They aren't approving anything that does that.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Nothing will ever cut into their bottom line they will extort more money from the applicants. They will raise fishing liscences ect.


----------



## goofy elk

TS30 said:


> Goofy, question for you on the system that is coming whether we like it of not: So you have to choose your species between deer and LE elk. No more LE elk and general deer. What if you choose deer, can you still buy general elk tags, such as OTC any bull/spike tags? Or is it completely pick your species? I still don't see this happening because although it really would help with point pools on each side, it would cut into the Division's bottom line. They aren't approving anything that does that.


IMO, Time will tell on these issues ...

Nothing has changed yet .. Years out still ..

I believe, the general elk tags will boil down to demand,
As the demand for these tags is ( or will ) drop off to the point
its possible they are just elimanated, and absorbed bt the LE syestem.

Nothing at this point is concrete!
These changes will take time, if they happen at all ...
But I personally fore-see these changes coming, Just as Opt 2 did ...
Just how it is, and were its going ..... JMHO ...\
For some reason, some guys on this forum,, shoot the mesenger....


----------



## goofy elk

Here's what the MM guys think about combining deer points,
and what should be done-----------50 posts on the topic:

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID30/2266.html


----------



## martymcfly73

Since goofy spoke it will be done. He's a clarinet. He can see the future.


----------



## Fishrmn

martymcfly73 said:


> Since goofy spoke it will be done. He's a clarinet. He can see the future.


Clarinet?!?

Clarion?

Clairvoyant.

⫸<{{{{{⦅°>


----------



## martymcfly73

Clairvoyant. I was being sarcastic.


----------



## elkfromabove

goofy elk said:


> For some reason, some guys on this forum,, shoot the mesenger....


 Maybe that's because the messenger keeps ending his messages with a  or a ;-) instead of a :-( or a even a :-|.


----------



## goofy elk

FYI---- These " --;-)" are mostly for Mcfly, ......
OR, for the simple fact I like the direction the deer managment is going..
One of the two.

And these ":-?--:-|", You can find plenty of on my posts regaurding elk managment
on the Wasatch or Nebo units....


----------



## Huntoholic

goofy elk said:


> Here's what the MM guys think about combining deer points,
> and what should be done-----------50 posts on the topic:
> 
> http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID30/2266.html


Post 51 nailed it to the wall.


----------



## goofy elk

I totaly agree with post #51 ....
For the elk, that would be AWESOME!


----------



## Catherder

Huntoholic said:


> Post 51 nailed it to the wall.


Yawn.

Poster 51 only proposed the exact same thing I did 3 pages ago, except he added in elk as well as deer. We are way ahead of the mm crowd. ;-)

As for doing elk the same as what is proposed for deer? Maybe, why not? Would the DWR go for it? Would the public? Spike elk and General elk hunts are pretty popular.


----------



## Huntoholic

Sometimes a simple explanation expresses a thought better....................


----------



## swbuckmaster

If you think people are going to still put in for spike elk if they can't put in for le bulls your mistaken. 

The only reason spike tags are a hit is because people think hunting them lessens the blow when they learn they didn't draw a le bull tag.

My prediction is spike tag sales will drop and the dwr will be forced to increase le bull tags. Sfw will b&m that there isn't 400" bulls around every corner for Denny to hunt. 


My prediction on the deer side is people will get pizzed they cant put in for le if the they draw a general tag. They don't want to wait any longer for an easy tag then they have to so the state will just make everything le with higher buck doe ratios.


----------



## oldTimer

Raise the application fee and/or the tag fee until the number of applicants = the number of tags available.

Point creep problem solved. 

This approach is known as a free market or capitalist approach. In comparison, the current system is known as a socialist or communist approach. It is simple economics.

The free market approach is ultimately the only viable and sustainable approach. Any other approach will result in devaluation of the resource and continued diminished opportunity. The fact that we sell an elk tag for less than it cost to fill a truck up with gas is idiotic and immoral (IMHO).


----------



## Huntoholic

Spoken like a true KING............

Off with their head


----------



## Muley73

Napkin notes in order. Let the games begin.


----------



## oldTimer

Huntoholic said:


> Spoken like a true KING............
> 
> Off with their head


That would be a monarchy.

The fact is that our current system is not sustainable. There will continue to be less and less opportunity (that is what Goofy is really saying/describing). It will eventually get to the point that there is so little opportunity left that hardly anyone cares/hunts anymore. At that point the anti-hunting lobby will get things shut down altogether.

How long would the Jazz last if instead of selling basketball tickets for what they are worth they held a drawing to see who got to go to buy Jazz tickets for $1?

I know the truth hurts and I am unpopular on this forum... but remember "I told you so".... it is a lot closer than you think.


----------



## Huntoholic

oldTimer said:


> That would be a monarchy.
> 
> The fact is that our current system is not sustainable. There will continue to be less and less opportunity (that is what Goofy is really saying/describing). It will eventually get to the point that there is so little opportunity left that hardly anyone cares/hunts anymore. At that point the anti-hunting lobby will get things shut down altogether.
> 
> How long would the Jazz last if instead of selling basketball tickets for what they are worth they held a drawing to see who got to go to buy Jazz tickets for $1?
> 
> I know the truth hurts and I am unpopular on this forum... but remember "I told you so".... it is a lot closer than you think.


So you some how think that raising the price to the point of the rich guy will some how keep people interested enough to not loose the sport. Right........

In order for you to have a really totally free market scenerio, you would first have to purchase the land and put a 10 foot high fence all around it. Then you would have to stock and raise your own game.

I own a piece (or share) of the current ground and game. I believe I should have an equal chance to be able to hunt said ground and said game.


----------



## oldTimer

It boils down to Capitalism vs Socialism.

For a real-world comparison of the two systems Google "North Korea" and then "South Korea". Unfortunately it is very hard, if not impossible, to convince people sucking on the public teat that it is really in their long-term best interest to act responsibly.


----------



## oldTimer

Huntoholic said:


> I own a piece (or share) of the current ground and game. I believe I should have an equal chance to be able to hunt said ground and said game.


Game animals are Utah state owned property. You only own a piece (or share) of them in the same sense as you own a piece (or share) of any other sate owned property. As a Utah resident you technically own a piece of the Governor's mansion but that does not give you the right to sleep there. Just because you own a piece of the ground and game does not give you the right to hunt them.

Trust me, our current system is NOT sustainable. Soon if you are not a member of a privileged class (e.g. youth, SFW, etc.) you will have little or no opportunity.

The possible exception is if you enjoy killing pregnant females and babies.


----------



## DallanC

Maybe we need a "Logans Run" solution here...


-DallanC


----------



## goofy elk

oldTimer said:


> Game animals are Utah state owned property. You only own a piece (or share) of them in the same sense as you own a piece (or share) of any other sate owned property. As a Utah resident you technically own a piece of the Governor's mansion but that does not give you the right to sleep there. Just because you own a piece of the ground and game does not give you the right to hunt them.
> 
> Trust me, our current system is NOT sustainable. Soon if you are not a member of a privileged class (e.g. youth, SFW, etc.) you will have little or no opportunity.
> 
> The possible exception is if you enjoy killing pregnant females and babies.


Yep, I agree ...


----------



## Huntoholic

oldTimer said:


> Trust me, our current system is NOT sustainable. Soon if you are not a member of a privileged class (e.g. youth, SFW, etc.) you will have little or no opportunity.


You are right, our current system is not sustainable. But pushing the system to the privileged wealthy class is not sustainable either. You think you have a problem with poaching now, limit hunting to a few and see what you get.


----------



## Kevin D

oldTimer said:


> Raise the application fee and/or the tag fee until the number of applicants = the number of tags available.
> 
> Point creep problem solved.
> 
> This approach is known as a free market or capitalist approach. In comparison, the current system is known as a socialist or communist approach. It is simple economics.
> 
> The free market approach is ultimately the only viable and sustainable approach. Any other approach will result in devaluation of the resource and continued diminished opportunity. The fact that we sell an elk tag for less than it cost to fill a truck up with gas is idiotic and immoral (IMHO).


What we are talking bout here is the allocation of scarce resources....which is really what the study of economics is all about. Now, is a market solution the only way to distribute scarce resources?? Hardly, it is only one of many ways. Time is also an asset that one can trade instead of money to obtain a scarce resource (i.e. the waiting line to get a concert ticket, black Friday deals, Soviet bread lines, etc.). So I would have to disagree with you that a free market solution is the only viable and sustainable way to divvy out game tags.

Also, being that you are a student of economics oldTimer, I'm sure you are familiar with the branch economics called the economics of utility (or satisfaction). It is the study of how an economic entity allocates his/her/its assets to maximize their utility or satisfaction level. Assuming our goal here is to maximize public utility (satisfaction) with regard to game tags (not revenue mind you), it is unlikely the market approach is the best way to achieve the maximum sum satisfaction level for the majority of the citizens of Utah.

So, if we are going to rely on the field of economics to resolve our tag allocation dilemma given that it is a public good, it is not really as simple as it would first appear.


----------



## Springville Shooter

Everyone has always pushed hunter recruitment.....maybe we need to convince more people that golf is much more fun.--------SS


----------



## oldTimer

Kevin D said:


> What we are talking bout here is the allocation of scarce resources....which is really what the study of economics is all about. Now, is a market solution the only way to distribute scarce resources?? Hardly, it is only one of many ways. Time is also an asset that one can trade instead of money to obtain a scarce resource (i.e. the waiting line to get a concert ticket, black Friday deals, Soviet bread lines, etc.). So I would have to disagree with you that a free market solution is the only viable and sustainable way to divvy out game tags.
> 
> Also, being that you are a student of economics oldTimer, I'm sure you are familiar with the branch economics called the economics of utility (or satisfaction). It is the study of how an economic entity allocates his/her/its assets to maximize their utility or satisfaction level. Assuming our goal here is to maximize public utility (satisfaction) with regard to game tags (not revenue mind you), it is unlikely the market approach is the best way to achieve the maximum sum satisfaction level for the majority of the citizens of Utah.
> 
> So, if we are going to rely on the field of economics to resolve our tag allocation dilemma given that it is a public good, it is not really as simple as it would first appear.


Kevin,

You have certainly presented some good ideas and I agree that they are economically valid.

The main reason I am biased towards raising prices is because I feel it would help eliminate the problem of people putting in everybody they know just to sandbag points. For example, suppose Goofy is right and they go to a single point system. I predict a lot of people would put in for the general season and then put their father, mother, sisters, brothers, wives, mistresses, neighbors, bishops, etc., etc., etc. in to sandbag points for a "premium" hunt. The net result is you either have to "play the system" or you are screwed.

What percentage of applicants putting in right now really love and want to hunt and how many are family members of hunters being put in to sandbag points?

If on average each hunter is putting in 1 other person to sandbag then the point creep could be cut in half without eliminating opportunity.

How high would we need to raise the application fee to weed out most of the abuse?


----------



## oldTimer

Springville Shooter said:


> Everyone has always pushed hunter recruitment.....maybe we need to convince more people that golf is much more fun.--------SS


Either that or fire the DWR and SFW and hire the WTF to manage our big game herds. IMHO they have sure done an outstanding job with turkeys. ;-)


----------



## Vanilla

I hear about the 'free market system' in hunting a lot on these forums, but that only tells me that those asking for it don't understand the common law mandate of the public trust doctrine. I wonder if oldTimer could throw a couple more Tea Party slogans in his next post? Because onE thinks that public resources belong to all the public they are now socialists? Ha! Does that actually work at those gatherings? You drop the "S" word and everyone clams up and changes their mind to avoid getting called an Obama-lover next? Go the way of a non-free society where only the rich get to enjoy public resources. That sounds like the America our founding fathers created.... (Sarcasm intended) 

The situation isn't as dire as people cry about on these forums. It seems the mantra of so many in the vocal minority is "Why use a scalpel when a sledge hammer will do?"


----------



## Kevin D

A couple thoughts....

There is a distinction between public goods and private goods. Game animals are a public good owned equally by all the citizens of the state. To auction them off to the highest bidder equates to stealing from the poor to give to the rich......the so called "inverted Robin Hood principle."

Allocating tags by a lottery system, which is what we do, is not socialism. Tags are allocated not according to need, but according to luck. Big difference. Sorry, but the label doesn't stick.

Allocation of tags is not an economic problem lending itself to a market solution, but because game animals are a public good held in trust and administered by the state, it is more of a political problem where parameters and objectives should be set in a political process (such as the RAC and Wildlife Board).


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

That LE turkey proposal is about the most retarded thing I've ever heard of. Just make the whole thing over the counter and be done with it. JEEEZZZZUUUUSSSS!!!!!


----------



## Springville Shooter

TS30 said:


> I hear about the 'free market system' in hunting a lot on these forums, but that only tells me that those asking for it don't understand the common law mandate of the public trust doctrine. I wonder if oldTimer could throw a couple more Tea Party slogans in his next post? Because onE thinks that public resources belong to all the public they are now socialists? Ha! Does that actually work at those gatherings? You drop the "S" word and everyone clams up and changes their mind to avoid getting called an Obama-lover next? Go the way of a non-free society where only the rich get to enjoy public resources. That sounds like the America our founding fathers created.... (Sarcasm intended)
> 
> The situation isn't as dire as people cry about on these forums. It seems the mantra of so many in the vocal minority is "Why use a scalpel when a sledge hammer will do?"


It is absolutely as dire as people cry....just ask a Monroe spike elk rifle hunter. :grin: --------SS


----------



## goofy elk

TEX-O-BOB said:


> That LE turkey proposal is about the most retarded thing I've ever heard of. Just make the whole thing over the counter and be done with it. JEEEZZZZUUUUSSSS!!!!!


Interesting twist after making turkey hunts general permits !!!

Permits sales fall off of alomst 45% after limited entry changed to 
add general season hunting:

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/15-upland-game/39421-huge-fall-off-turkey-hunter-numbers.html

Just say'in----- strange twist---


----------



## RandomElk16

I may be dumb but am still confused (probably because i just read 9 pages of this).

I have yet to see a goofy response on the exact proposal. So let me crack at it.

-no more GS deer. All units are LE.
-elk GS and LE are still around.

With this, you can apply for deer and purchase an elk GS, or apply for an LE elk but no deer tag?


Or

-deer has GS and LE, but you can only apply for one. Points are shared. You draw, your points are gone.

Please clarify some of these questions before I state my stance. If either of my assumed proposals are correct, they are littered with issues...


----------



## elkfromabove

goofy elk said:


> Interesting twist after making turkey hunts general permits !!!
> 
> Permits sales fall off of alomst 45% after limited entry changed to
> add general season hunting:
> 
> http://utahwildlife.net/forum/15-upland-game/39421-huge-fall-off-turkey-hunter-numbers.html
> 
> Just say'in----- strange twist---


 Probably the difference in timing. It is for me. Start the general hunt two weeks earlier at the beginning of the mating season when the current LE hunts start and you'll see more sales.


----------



## El Matador

goofy elk said:


> Interesting twist after making turkey hunts general permits !!!
> 
> Permits sales fall off of alomst 45% after limited entry changed to
> add general season hunting:
> 
> http://utahwildlife.net/forum/15-upland-game/39421-huge-fall-off-turkey-hunter-numbers.html
> 
> Just say'in----- strange twist---


Goofy, those numbers are deceiving. For a number of years it was difficult to draw a turkey permit and you had quite a few hunters putting in to build points. When they decided to make a move toward general season permits they increased the number of LE permits dramatically over a 2 year period. So most of those 13,000 people suddenly drew a permit when in years past there were only a few thousand tags issued. Now the numbers have returned to normal. If you disregard the artificial spike in hunter numbers induced by the switch from LE you'll see that hunters afield has remained fairly constant over the years.

I'd love to believe that switching to a single points system would help our cause. If done correctly it could be a great move. I just have so little faith in our wildlife board that I refuse to get my hopes up. They have repeatedly dropped the ball in the past with things like this. If they do make any changes they will most likely be geared toward driving up the demand for tags and increasing their value. Instead of addressing the issue of point creep they will probably compound it somehow and we will be left scratching our heads yet again.


----------



## oldTimer

Kevin D said:


> There is a distinction between public goods and private goods. Game animals are a public good owned equally by all the citizens of the state. To auction them off to the highest bidder equates to stealing from the poor to give to the rich......the so called "inverted Robin Hood principle."


I have to respectfully disagree with you here. As I mentioned in a previous post:

Game animals are Utah state owned property. You only own a piece (or share) of them in the same sense as you own a piece (or share) of any other sate owned property. As a Utah resident you technically own a piece of the Governor's mansion but that does not give you the right to sleep there. Just because you own a piece of the ground and game does not give you the right to hunt them.

Selling them below market value is cheating the 93% of the Utah population that does not hunt out of a state/public revenue source. It is no different than if the State sold our coal, gas, and oil leases to the winner of a lottery for a fraction of their value. It makes no difference that a person does not hunt or mine coal. They are public property. ALL other state property is sold at auction. Why not wildlife? Is there a reverse Robin Hood effect because we auction off surplus state vehicles instead of holding a lottery?



Kevin D said:


> Allocating tags by a lottery system, which is what we do, is not socialism. Tags are allocated not according to need, but according to luck. Big difference. Sorry, but the label doesn't stick.


The majority of Utah citizens consider lotteries to be immoral and our legislature has made them illegal. Why is there an exception for game animals? Are lotteries okay or not? Also, do you really feel it is better to distribute scares resources based on luck? Should we be teaching our children to stay in school, study hard, work hard, sacrifice, and earn the things they want or be lazy and use their welfare money to buy lottery tickets and hope they win?

It is frustrating to me that a group of people that are generally very conservative embrace such a liberal view when it comes to the distribution of game tags.


----------



## Huntoholic

oldTimer said:


> The majority of Utah citizens consider lotteries to be immoral and our legislature has made them illegal. Why is there an exception for game animals? Are lotteries okay or not? Also, do you really feel it is better to distribute scares resource based on luck? Should we be teaching our children to stay in school, study hard, work hard, sacrifice, and earn the things they want or be a lazy and use their welfare money to buy lottery tickets and hope they win?


I wish you would make up your mind. I one breath you slam the system and in the next you tell those children to stay in their free schools. Maybe we should auction off the classroom seat.

Why is it you only want to auction off the game? Why don't we auction off street repairs or any of the other thousands of scrace things we are in need of?


----------



## klbzdad

Question, is oldTimer a short pudgy taxi from Texas?


----------



## ridgetop

klbzdad said:


> Question, is oldTimer a short pudgy taxi from Texas?


I don't know about that but he sure is digging a mighty deep hole.:smile:


----------



## Vanilla

It started with 'socialist' and now the feared 'L' word just got thrown out!!!! Those are fighting words! We're all just a bunch of liberals. 

I remember when I was a teenager my buddies and I used to say "If you're scared, just admit it!" to try and get each other to do stupid stuff. These posts feel strikingly similar to that. I almost feel like crushing a can on my head and running down to the governor's mansion to demand all tags in the whole state be auctioned to the highest bidder. Heck, even limit fishing licenses and do the same thing with them. No more sucking on the government teet here. Lazy pieces of crap! On that note, we should limit those that drive on the freeway to 10,000 people per day. Auction tags to that as well. Nobody calls me a liberal!!!!


----------



## robiland

klbzdad said:


> Question, is oldTimer a short pudgy taxi from Texas?


Are you referring to Tripstate???


----------



## Huntoholic

TS30 said:


> ..... On that note, we should limit those that drive on the freeway to 10,000 people per day. Auction tags to that as well. Nobody calls me a liberal!!!!


But don't forget, you get to still pay your taxes for those freeways for those 10,000 to drive on........


----------



## oldTimer

Clever comments...

In a few short years when you are sitting home because there is little to no hunting opportunity just remember... I told you so.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" - Margret Thatcher

Under our current socialist hunting system we will eventually run out of hunting opportunity.


----------



## Huntoholic

oldTimer said:


> Clever comments...
> 
> In a few short years when you are sitting home because there is little to no hunting opportunity just remember... I told you so.
> 
> "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" - Margret Thatcher
> 
> Under our current socialist hunting system we will eventually run out of hunting opportunity.


Whether there are no tagges, whether they are all bought by the rich, or whether I'm priced out of the game because of high cost, the out come is the same.

I think Margret's quote applies more for me. You want me to pay to build and maintain the herd so you can sale the tag to the highest bidder........


----------



## swbuckmaster

Huntoholic said:


> Whether there are no tagges, whether they are all bought by the rich, or whether I'm priced out of the game because of high cost, the out come is the same.
> 
> I think Margret's quote applies more for me. You want me to pay to build and maintain the herd so you can sale the tag to the highest bidder........


Yup!


----------



## Vanilla

There is that 'S' word again! But you still haven't defined why the rich should be the only people that get to benefit from PUBLIC resources. 

And also, as my previous post hinted at...where does it end? Why not limit the fishing licenses to 100,000 people and auction them all off each year? Why stop with deer? Put every hunting tag, including small game, waterfowl, upland game, etc in an auction. If you can't afford it, well, get your lazy A out of the way! 

Never mind the decades upon decades of tax dollars that have gone into the resource...


----------



## ridgetop

Well this post sure just got the life sucked out of it.
For a forum that has no "Political" section, it's amazing how many post end up with politics being the main focus.


----------



## Huntoholic

Well when your wildlife decisions are not based on biology, what does that leave?


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

goofy elk said:


> Interesting twist after making turkey hunts general permits !!!
> 
> Permits sales fall off of alomst 45% after limited entry changed to
> add general season hunting:
> 
> http://utahwildlife.net/forum/15-upland-game/39421-huge-fall-off-turkey-hunter-numbers.html
> 
> Just say'in----- strange twist---


Yup, that's because most people are figuring out that turkeys, even with a LE tag in your pocket are no slam dunk easy hunt. In fact, I've herd from a lot of folks that are dyed-in-the-wool turkey hunters say that they'll never put in for a turkey tag again because the LE hunts are more crowded than the gen season hunts! The people hunting the gen season are people who want to be out there without the crowds and have a quality experience. LE is just an acronym for "crowded hunting with lots of entitlement complex havin idiots" It needs to go away.


----------



## Springville Shooter

Turkeys should have a bag limit, not a tag.......sheesh.-------SS


----------



## DallanC

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Yup, that's because most people are figuring out that turkeys, even with a LE tag in your pocket are no slam dunk easy hunt. In fact, I've herd from a lot of folks that are dyed-in-the-wool turkey hunters say that they'll never put in for a turkey tag again because the LE hunts are more crowded than the gen season hunts! The people hunting the gen season are people who want to be out there without the crowds and have a quality experience. LE is just an acronym for "crowded hunting with lots of entitlement complex havin idiots" It needs to go away.


That was my experience. People CHASING birds at a dead run trying to kick them up like a pheasant, it was quite ridiculous. It was so out of control in fact the spot I used to hunt is now all posted no trespassing / no hunting by the landowners who just got sick of the craziness. :?

-DallanC


----------



## klbzdad

robiland said:


> Are you referring to Tripstate???


Read post #100. ;-)


----------



## Kevin D

I'm sure you are aware of course, oldTimer, that the concept you seem to subscribe to that basis of all human existence and interactions revolve around economics and economic solutions is a Marxist philosophy. You are quick to label us as socialists, liberals, or what not, yet here you are preaching Marxist doctrine. You are not a Marxist are you?? You don't keep a copy of Das Kapital on your nightstand and have a secret closet shrine to Che Guevara do you?? 








The reason I bring this up is because you are trying to stick labels on us that really have no application. *BUT EVEN IF IT DID, *it wouldn't matter. The whole purpose of an economic or political system is to serve it's citizens. If an economic or political system is not working, for hell's sake change it. The economic or political system should serve us, not us serve it. Don't get so hung up on labels.

Let me don my guru hat for a moment........I predict that future hunting opportunity is not dependent on which method we use to allocate tags. ;-)


----------



## goofy elk

Kevin D said:


> Let me don my guru hat for a moment........I predict that future hunting opportunity is not dependent on which method we use to allocate tags. ;-)


I AGREE !

We are hunting shrinking resource's, with higher expectations.......

Changes to hunting laws have to react acordingly.


----------



## osageorange

Goofy-check your watch. The train left the station and no one has brought it to your attention. 

I guarantee you, there will be no less opportunity to hunt in Utah. Hide and watch!


----------



## goofy elk

OSAGEO,,,,

Check ur saddle, there's a burr under it................................


----------



## RandomElk16

Could I get a response to my prior question on the exact details of the one point system please? Goofy?


----------



## ridgetop

RandomElk16 said:


> Could I get a response to my prior question on the exact details of the one point system please? Goofy?


I don't think anyone really knows what may happen. Just some ideas thrown out there.


----------



## goofy elk

Ridge is correct----Nothing other than ' napkin notes ' yet ...;-)...


----------



## ridgetop

ridgetop said:


> I don't think anyone really knows what may happen. Just some ideas thrown out there.





goofy elk said:


> Ridge is correct----Nothing other than ' napkin notes ' yet ...;-)...


You know because of the craziness of this post. I just had to change my signature for the new year.


----------



## Springville Shooter

Never underestimate the power of napkin notes. What you wipe your mouth with today will dictate your life tomorrow. For myself, I have heard enough buzz regarding this subject to believe that it is more than just distant ideas, something is going to happen. The more ideas that are out there, the better the chances of the right decision being made. I remember when the kids party hunting idea was just a bunch of rumors flying around the interweb.------SS


----------



## RandomElk16

ridgetop said:


> You know because of the craziness of this post. I just had to change my signature for the new year.


I had to add one..


----------



## Springville Shooter

RandomElk16 said:


> I had to add one..


I changed mine too.....--------SS


----------



## JuddCT

goofy elk said:


> I AGREE !
> 
> We are hunting shrinking resource's, with higher expectations.......
> 
> Changes to hunting laws have to react acordingly.


Why not lower expectations? We can always manage for smaller bulls and bucks.


----------



## goofy elk

JuddCT said:


> Why not lower expectations? We can always manage for smaller bulls and bucks.


All you have to do is watch the Wasatch unit the next two years,,
And you'll know WHY ' lowering expectations ' was/is a BAD idea..:-|...


----------



## JuddCT

goofy elk said:


> All you have to do is watch the Wasatch unit the next two years,,
> And you'll know WHY ' lowering expectations ' was/is a BAD idea..:-|...


Disagree. I wish we could all go back to the good old days when a 4-5point raghorn on the Manti was the talk of the town. Meant just as much as a 350 bull.


----------



## goofy elk

^^^^ Never going to happen !! ^^^^^^^^^^

You put 350 bulls on the wall-------NOT raghorns.

There will be an out cry on the Wasatch unit coming soon ....
Watch and learn..


----------



## DallanC

goofy elk said:


> You put 350 bulls on the wall-------NOT raghorns.


And there we have it.

I'm sorry that for you a trophy has to be that big... everything i kill is a trophy me, sometimes they have big antlers, sometimes small, but everything I pull the trigger on is a trophy.

Apparently I hunt for different reasons than you do.

-DallanC


----------



## Fishrmn

goofy elk said:


> You put 350 bulls on the wall-------NOT raghorns


And that is the biggest problem with our tag system now. Horn porn.


----------



## Fishrmn

goofy elk said:


> You put 350 bulls on the wall-------NOT raghorns


And that is the biggest problem with our tag system now. Horn porn.

⫸<{{{{{⦅°>


----------



## oldTimer

Fishrmn said:


> And that is the biggest problem with our tag system now. Horn porn.


I don't agree that it is the "biggest" problem but I certainly agree it is contributing to the problem.

The worst part to me is that, for the most part, these so called "trophies" on the wall mean absolutely positively nothing, nada, zilch, zero. It takes absolutely *NO* hunting skill to kill a "trophy" on most of Utah's LE units. All it takes is winning a lottery. How much hunting skill and ability does it take to kill a trophy mule deer on the Hennery Mountains? Why not just go to a high-fence game farm? In my opinion most of the guys putting a so called "trophy" on the wall from a Utah LE hunt are simply trying to compensate for something they have that is very little by displaying antlers that are very big.


----------



## goofy elk

DallanC said:


> And there we have it.
> 
> I'm sorry that for you a trophy has to be that big... everything i kill is a trophy me, sometimes they have big antlers, sometimes small, but everything I pull the trigger on is a trophy.
> 
> Apparently I hunt for different reasons than you do.
> 
> -DallanC


And the probblem with that is what???????

I'm so far past killing something I'm NOT hanging on the wall it's 
not even funny----------------Thats what my kids are for..........
I've been letting them fill the freezer...And I'm WAAAYYY OK with that.;-)


----------



## Fishrmn

It's not the biggest problem with our herds, but the mentality of killing the biggest buck, or bull in the state is causing most of the problem with tags, LE, recruitment, (gotta teach the young ones to vie for the biggest), etc.

⫸<{{{{{⦅°>


----------



## Critter

oldTimer said:


> I don't agree that it is the "biggest" problem but I certainly agree it is contributing to the problem.
> 
> The worst part to me is that, for the most part, these so called "trophies" on the wall mean absolutely positively nothing, nada, zilch, zero. It takes absolutely *NO* hunting skill to kill a "trophy" on most of Utah's LE units. All it takes is winning a lottery. How much hunting skill and ability does it take to kill a trophy mule deer on the Hennery Mountains? Why not just go to a high-fence game farm? In my opinion most of the guys putting a so called "trophy" on the wall from a Utah LE hunt are simply trying to compensate for something they have that is very little by displaying antlers that are very big.


And evidently you haven't been hunting in any of the LE units to see if you can get one of those trophies. They are not behind every tree and most of the hunters that do draw these coveted tags do have to get out and hunt to find the one that they want.


----------



## ridgetop

Fishrmn said:


> It's not the biggest problem with our herds, but the mentality of killing the biggest buck, or bull in the state is causing most of the problem with tags, LE, recruitment, (gotta teach the young ones to vie for the biggest), etc.
> 
> ⫸<{{{{{⦅°>


I think there's a bigger problem with the pursuit of big fish in our fisheries now days than what your talking about. 
Maybe we should go back to a limit of 8 trout of any size on ever lake too. With a possession limit of 16.


----------



## ridgetop

oldTimer said:


> I don't agree that it is the "biggest" problem but I certainly agree it is contributing to the problem.
> 
> The worst part to me is that, for the most part, these so called "trophies" on the wall mean absolutely positively nothing, nada, zilch, zero. It takes absolutely *NO* hunting skill to kill a "trophy" on most of Utah's LE units. All it takes is winning a lottery. How much hunting skill and ability does it take to kill a trophy mule deer on the Hennery Mountains? Why not just go to a high-fence game farm? In my opinion most of the guys putting a so called "trophy" on the wall from a Utah LE hunt are simply trying to compensate for something they have that is very little by displaying antlers that are very big.


 Ok oldtimer. You have now gone off the deep end. 
Dig man dig!


----------



## RandomElk16

oldTimer said:


> I don't agree that it is the "biggest" problem but I certainly agree it is contributing to the problem.
> 
> The worst part to me is that, for the most part, these so called "trophies" on the wall mean absolutely positively nothing, nada, zilch, zero. It takes absolutely *NO* hunting skill to kill a "trophy" on most of Utah's LE units. All it takes is winning a lottery. How much hunting skill and ability does it take to kill a trophy mule deer on the Hennery Mountains? Why not just go to a high-fence game farm? In my opinion most of the guys putting a so called "trophy" on the wall from a Utah LE hunt are simply trying to compensate for something they have that is very little by displaying antlers that are very big.


Oh my good heavens.. You must spend wayyy more time online then in the mountains! Lots of LE elk hunters get under 300 class elk if not soup. LE elk hunts are incredibly difficult, even in the best areas. Lots get deer under 180. Lots get antelope under 80. You ever been to or hunted the henry's? There are big deer compared to general units, lots of 3x4 and 3x3 small 4x4. But you want a trophy, which most would say on the henry's would be 200" to be a trophy, hell even 180", its a ton of work.

Also, to take away from the hard work, time, effort, and money put out by LE hunters is pretty weak. You think little towns and LE areas are preserved by tourism??? No. People who get trophys usually spend a lot of time in the area. A lot! To say that work means nothing, well that meams you don't know what work is. Yep, said it.

Your statement is ridiculous to say the least!


----------



## JuddCT

goofy elk said:


> ^^^^ Never going to happen !! ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> You put 350 bulls on the wall-------NOT raghorns.
> 
> There will be an out cry on the Wasatch unit coming soon ....
> Watch and learn..


Don't come to our cabin you will be underwhelmed. We have big bulls but there are way more raghorns. No trophy hunter will ever take away what my first raghorn meant to me. Way better trophy than any other bigger animal I have taken.

I don't mean to take away from LE hunters as it is not an easy task to score a huge bull.


----------



## goofy elk

Judd, in my home right now, there are 20 mounts....( 2 more being mounted )

Some are on plaque's .... One of which is a spike bull, I kill in 1977 with a 30-30 !
YES It's one of my favorites!!!!!! --- Heck, it was my first bull when I was 16 years old!

I undesrtand what YOU are saying, BUT, understand what I'm saying.
Regaurdless of what you and I think, or like, Hunting is changing at light speed!!!!

I'll be the first to omit, trophy hunting is changing the dynamics dramaticaly!
But, IMO, I dont see that changing back to general ' type ' hunts ..

It's plain an simple, public demand will drive this issue .. 
And that's,,,,,,Just the truth.


----------



## stillhunterman

goofy,

I will say one thing for you, you're consistant. I do agree with you that hunting is changing, it is; but certainly NOT at 'light speed'. The trophy mentality has been a long time in the making, and has moved to the next level due to two things: financial benefit and dwindling resourses. Those who are taking advantage of these two factors are sticking it to the general hunters with NO remorse or concern for what it's doing to the heritage of hunting.

And folks DO understand where YOU are coming from, it's not that hard to see; and I would also venture to guess that most don't give a crap how or what you hunt or hang on the wall, that's up to you. Just don't force or push that philosophy onto others, which is exactly what you are doing. Your snide remarks are a slap in the face to those who don't subscribe to your thinking, and trust me, it's a HUGE number of hunters. 

Of course you don't see the trophy hunting dynamics changing, you don't want them to! And I love this quote from you: "It's plain an simple, public demand will drive this issue .. And that's,,,,,,Just the truth." Such a simple statement but with MANY possibilites and truths. I know you meant it as referring to the trophy crowd being the 'public', but I think the 'public' is made of mostly of GENERAL HUNTERS. However, the UDWR and the Wildlife Board only respond to "he with the 'squeakiest' wheel", and we all know who that is. So you just might be right in that respect.

Nowhere in the west is the trophy mentality as prolific as it is here in Utah, and everyone knows why. Sad, really. But if the general hunters are too damned lazy or unconcerned to get into the rac and wb meetings and voice thier displeasures/concerns, then they deserve what they get. That's about as honest and upfront as I can get, but trust me, I have a great deal more I could say.


----------



## goofy elk

stillhunterman said:


> goofy,
> 
> have a great deal more i could say.


me too!!:d..8)..


----------



## 300 Wby

As do I; I have expressed my thoughts at the RAC and to the WB members however, because I do not belong to an organization my time limit is 2 minutes compared to 5 at the RACs and of course because I do not represent an organization my thoughts are looked at as "Who does this person think he is, he is only one person, doesn't have anything to contribute and ideas are not worthy of consideration"

I am not bashing any single organization; organizations are good for our wildlife. What I am saying is that our RACs and WB needs to pay attention to those that are not representing an organization, open your ears and listen you just might learn something. Ever wonder why the general RACs/WB meetings attendance is so dismal? When everything the general public brings up is brushed aside and you see that the entire RAC/WB is nothing more than a political ploy to let you think they are listening the faith of the system becomes questionable.


----------



## Vanilla

No, the public won't drive this direction, because the VAST majority would rather just get a tag every year and be able to go out. The difference in numbers between the two camps is staggering. It's not even close. 

No, what will drive this direction is special interests and money. If any change hurts the bottom line, it won't happen. If special interests can find a way to convince the WB it is mutually beneficial to fill each other's pockets....get ready to go back to old England where all the game belongs to the king and only the rich get to play. But heck, maybe oldTimer will let me reel in a fish or fetch one of his ducks in "a few short years" when this happens.


----------



## goofy elk

Sorry TS, Ur wrong on this one.:!:.

The returns on required reporting of hunters is showing UNSATISFACORTY results.

END of story.


----------



## martymcfly73

Wrong AGAIN Goofy.


----------



## GBell

One thing I've always wondered: who exactly
Is going to defend the right to hunt once the trophy
Mentality has run all of the "regular" hunters out??


----------



## DallanC

And what was the satisfaction results for those who didn't draw a tag last year? 


-DallanC


----------



## goofy elk

martymcfly73 said:


> Wrong AGAIN Goofy.


We well see Mcfly Whos right , and WHOs wrong....in time.:!:..


----------



## Vanilla

Goofy,

It is a fallacy to say that if the Wildlife Board succumbs to pressure from the vocal minority that measure quality in inches only that it means the vast majority of hunters view it the same way. Public input was overwhelming against option 2. It still passed. 

And no, I'm not wrong on this.


----------



## CROC

goofy elk said:


> The problem with the lifetime liceness is they are one of the stepping
> stones blocking the way to a single point draw sytem for deer permits.
> 
> And SW is correct, The general deer PP system we have now is contributing to
> the LE bonus point creep considerably ...........
> 
> If hunters were only able to apply for one spices---Deer, elk, or antelope,
> Elk , antelope, even the harder to draw deer tags would become much easier
> to draw !!!!!!
> 
> Why? Because 50% of the guys applying for BOTH general and LE would
> choose to hunt their traditional deer areas .... thus, pulling them OUT of
> the ' trophy type ' draws......


So what is going to happen when 3/4 of the applicants put in for the "good areas" and there is no one wasting their entry on the areas that never sell out in the draws or are a 1 to 1 ratio of applicants anyways. Going to a single point system will create the same issue. Do we think that the state will stop selling over the counter tags that are not sold on the draw? So under this new system what would stop me from putting in for the LE deer I put in for now and then buying a "left over" that no one else will waste their (good entry) for either. Now that I have to put in and get no points on the new system wouldn't most people put in for one of the "LE" areas that they may not have put in for in the past? Creating more tag drawing issues for the already problem areas. Now that I can only put in for one area and I buy an over the counter left over the state just lost more draw fees from me. I would put in for the Crawfords and buy a Northern tag if I don't draw. I guess I don't see it.

Who is paying me back for all of the points I purchased that are now "worthless"? If you take away everyone's points we paid for shouldn't we be reimbursed for the points we have paid for and can't use.... or should we drag it out letting people use the points that they have with no one getting anymore? If they are all "deleted" , How many would sign a petition on a class action lawsuit to recoup some of what we spent to prove a point? I would.


----------



## redleg

It's not that the Wildlife Board succumbs to pressure from the vocal minority. The Wildlife Board succumbs to pressure from the minority who make money on Utah's wildlife and donate some to the DWR.


----------



## Vanilla

Yes, we are talking about the same group of people.


----------



## RandomElk16

Croc is on to my thinking of the countless issues with the single point system. Years of points and missed hunting wasted, areas people hunt for meat while waiting for the big hunt will become undesired, the points required for hunts will go up. So you will take away the yearly hunting experience for a premium one... Nothing I am saying can be argued against because we don't know what these napkin notes really entail. 

Yet for some BS unknown reason it will pass. Weird isn't it. Weird how most of us on here attend meetings and deer and other animals are transplanted and bartered against our wishes. Weird how opt 2 passed against the true popular vote. All of these things seem very very political. That usually isn't in the peoples best interest. As mentioned before, our 2 minutes at RAC result in shaking heads despite us spending the most time in the field, online with other hunters, etc...


----------



## elkfromabove

So, is it time for another rally on the steps of the capitol?


----------



## goofy elk

There's a rally scheduled already , Just a couple blocks south of the Capital.

Next month, It's called the Expo.......


----------

