# Middle Provo "illegal" access by guide



## HopperLover

I went fly fishing on the Middle Provo today. I walked down and fished the "middle" section of the river - about 1.5 miles downstream from the lower River Road access.

While doing so, I ran into a guide from a fly shop with a few clients who had accessed that section by Potter Lane - the road that goes close to that section and hopping the fence while ignoring the obvious "no access" signs there - definitely not one of the regular access points. I gave the guide a bit of my negative opinion on this, and he fired back.

First things first - if the guide is reading this, I offer my sincere apology for being somewhat of a jerk. I could have spoken my opinion in a more courteous manner (but I didn't cuss or swear or anything like that.) And it wasn't my intention to harass your clients, but I felt your clients deserved to know that access from that point is not cool. Still, I am sure they noticed the "no access" signs nearby anyway. It is not my intention to here "retract" my opinion - only to say that I could have approached you in a more civil manner (guess I could have been worse too!)

The following Utah mitigation commission document has the following to say about not accessing the river from adjacent roads:

http://www.mitigationcommission.gov/prr ... mplan.html

*"In most cases in the land purchase contracts with landowners who now abut or surround the PRRP corridor, we have eliminated direct access to the river. Furthermore, guides will not be able to strike deals with private landowners to gain direct access to the corridor, and a private individual cannot gain access to the river by paying a fee, nor by asking permission of an adjacent private landowner; the private landowners do not have the rights to grant such permission."*

I fish this section frequently, and have seen other guides (from another fly shop) in the past do this, although it has been a few years. I thought that behavior was done with, but I guess not. And I don't know if this is a regular habit of this fly shop or not.

It is not my intention to be a "tattle tale" nor a jerk, but it is pretty angering when I take a half-day off work and walk the 30 minutes or more downstream or upstream to that area, only to find guides "cheating" and accessing that section from the adjacent roads. Not to mention that it isn't the easiest walk to there on that somewhat rough trail (if it can even be called a trail - a few years ago I fell and severely sprained my ankle walking to this section). Since I fish that section frequently, and if I see this again, I might just give the local sheriff's office a call on my cell phone to at least give a parking ticket or whatever when the guide/clients leave. :evil: My interest is only to raise an issue if this is or will be a consistent problem with guides or others "illegally" accessing this or other sections of the Middle Provo.

Anyway. Sorry for the rant.

By the way - got a few nice brown on dries - didn't expect that (thought I would have to go underneath - but didn't.)


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## doody

Having spent many, many days up there over the past few years I've seen the same thing on more than a few occasions. I always give them the benefit of the doubt as I've never actually seen the act but I came across a couple of young guides with some very elderly (talkin 70'sish) clients last year near the same place you're talking about. It was quite obvious that their customers didn't get there from the public access points. 

I guess it's kinda understandable in these hard times....a guide service that can offer solitude and low pressured spots gets the biz and the tips at the end of the day. After all, its all about the money. Doesn't make it any less lame though and I'm sure the benefits outweigh the risk of a fine. In this situation I would actually call the shop and voice my concern telling them I'm taking my business elsewhere.


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## trout

Post the name of the shop. That will get their attention. Trespassing on a public river...that takes talent!


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## HopperLover

I asked the guide if they entered the river at the gate on the road nearby and he admitted that indeed they had. I even saw the vehicle parked there with somebody in it waiting for the guide/clients to finish - it was late afternoon.


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## trout

so......I guess JANS? Only ever had 1 pleasant experience with a JANS guide, all other experiences left me wondering what those knuckle heads were up too.


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## Catherder

Great. :evil: **O**



HopperLover said:


> if I see this again, I might just give the local sheriff's office a call on my cell phone to at least give a parking ticket or whatever when the guide/clients leave. :evil:


+1

Stories like that go over well :roll: when we are dealing with the legislature or are trying to "build bridges" with individual landowners.


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## doody

I think you should post up the name of the shop if the mods would allow it. This experience differs from those previous "legal" threads in that this was a personal experience, firsthand, and I guarantee that the shop would see this thread. In this case, I think naming names would actually have positive results.


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## HopperLover

Catherder said:


> Stories like that go over well :roll: when we are dealing with the legislature or are trying to "build bridges" with individual landowners.


I was thinking the _exact_ same thing.

I will gladly post the name of the fly shop if a mod is OK with that.


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## Rictanica

Quite a few years back I considered that section of the provo my home water. Not that I lived close or even fished it more then once a week, but that stream soured me on fly fishing altogether. Not because of the stream, but because of the folks like that. My elbows lost their sharpening and I got tired of arguing with folks for taking fish illegally, walking through your holes as you are fishing it, and generally being BIG A-Holes. I picked up a shotgun at that point and proceeded to go chukar hunting, where I was the only A-Hole within 50 miles! Fly fishing is alot of fun. I wish it wasn't so much fun, so that folks like me could enjoy it agian.


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## doody

HopperLover said:


> Catherder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stories like that go over well :roll: when we are dealing with the legislature or are trying to "build bridges" with individual landowners.
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking the _exact_ same thing.
> 
> I will gladly post the name of the fly shop if a mod is OK with that.
Click to expand...

Can we get a mod to chime in? I personally would like to know as I'm finally in a position in life where I'm taking guided trips on unfamiliar waters and its important to me that I spend my hard earned dollars on guides with a spot of integrity. With all the recent discussions on the topic here I'm starting to lose faith in these guys as a whole. After all, they're at the forefront of the push to overturn some horrible legislation in our state and if they're not playing by the rules how will we ever make progress to get our waters back?


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## JuddCT

doody said:


> HopperLover said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catherder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stories like that go over well :roll: when we are dealing with the legislature or are trying to "build bridges" with individual landowners.
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking the _exact_ same thing.
> 
> I will gladly post the name of the fly shop if a mod is OK with that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can we get a mod to chime in? I personally would like to know as I'm finally in a position in life where I'm taking guided trips on unfamiliar waters and its important to me that I spend my hard earned dollars on guides with a spot of integrity.
Click to expand...

Probably a better idea to start a thread in the general fishing questions about what guides are good/ethical. I don't think the forum wants any "defamation" charges (not saying it would happen, but I've seen crazier things happen).


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## HopperLover

I have an idea also. Perhaps we can construct a full list of all the guides/fly shops (as many as we can find), and send them all a letter or email with an attachment of the mitigation commission access rules as mentioned already in this thread. I am sure they are already familiar with the rules, but need a reminder, that we the public, are watching them. Let's remind them ALL that there have been numerous complaints over the years of guides accessing the river in non-public access areas, and that more than one guide service has been in violation. As an incentive, we could remind the guide services that this behavior can only do harm with the surrounding land owners, and with stream access issues becoming a big issue in the future, it is imperative that we, the fly angling community, are not going to be in violation of trespass laws. Meaning, we do NOT want to develop a worse reputation than we already have. Remember, it was the rumors (some overblown) of the fly angling community not respecting trespass laws that gave some in the state legislature to overturn the Supreme Court ruling on public access to streams. Not to mention the negative publicity on guide services that threads like these cause.


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## doody

If the service is doing negative things they deserve the negative discussions about them. I can't see the "defamation" course playing out if names are named, especially with blatant disregard for the rules is happening. Again, in this particular instance, I think naming names would actually help this stuff from happening in the future.


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## martymcfly73

How can it be defamation if it's true? Most guide services that use the river are ethical and follow the law. I said" most".


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## RnF

Call them out, bad service (practices) deserve to be noted. It's not defamation if it's true. They broke the law plain and simple. A guide service that is willing doing so, deserves the bad rap.

Situations like this make it harder to argue for public access laws. They are hurting this cause and the sport.

At the least, you should contact the guide service, ask for the owner/manager and discuss this with them. Depending on what's done about it, you could make your decision that way. Give them a chance to deal with the situation first.


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## fixed blade XC-3

Haha.. You guys think the mods will let someone post something controversial. lol. Haven't you learned this is a place of fluffy pillows, silk, bad words are strickly forgiven and heaven forbid you hurt someones feel bads.


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## doody

fixed blade XC-3 said:


> Haha.. You guys think the mods will let someone post something controversial. lol. Haven't you learned this is a place of fluffy pillows, silk, bad words are strickly forgiven and heaven forbid you hurt someones feel bads.


I disagree. I think this is the best moderated site of it's kind and, on this specific thread topic, I'd wager that they'd let the name drop stand.


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## Petersen

If HopperLover wants to post his his personal, first-hand experience with someone in a matter-of-fact way and wants to name that person or that guide service, that's fine as long as he assumes responsibility for what he writes. Personally, I wouldn't be inclined to make posts that might be interpreted by the named person as being libelous — people sometimes receive unpleasant letters from attorneys when that sort of thing happens.

I doubt that it will, but if the thread spirals off into trash talking, spreading rumors or 2nd- and 3rd-hand accusations about this or that guide, the mods and I will stop it. And if any guide wants to sign in and counter anything that might be said, that's fine too.


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## martymcfly73

Sweet! Start naming names. o-||


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## HopperLover

I haven't been around this forum much lately, so I haven't seen any trash talking of shops lately. But if you guys think it would lead to that, then I would be against revealing the shop. I also don't know the name of the guide. However, I do wish these fly shops/guide services that have done this would clean up their act, take responsibility, and rather than threaten a lawsuit or whatever or demand that threads like these get shut down, etc. If a fly shop came on here, apologized to the public for some isolated behavior such as this, that would go miles farther than trying to shut down a thread or threaten in another way. All can be forgiven rather easily if a fly shop simply posted something like "we realize that some guides have accessed the river illegally, and we plan to never let it happen again". That is all it would take. But I NEVER see this when I have seen these incidents over the years. I think it would be admirable if a simple message of responsibility was given when this happens, but I NEVER see that. Sad.

It has been noted on this thread that "most" fly shops/guide services aren't like this. Perhaps, but enough have questionable behavior that I have always been skeptical of most them and have never desired and will probably never desire to use ANY guide service. Besides, numerous people have noted that numerous fly shops have done this sort of behavior (entering the river at non-public areas) - I am now aware of THREE separate fly shops over several years that have had similar complaints against them - similar complaints but on different web sites. And, one several years ago brought two vans of people (I counted over 20 people) to this section of the river, and entered from private property. The land owner of that land had to take extra measures to ensure that this never happened again (he put up a gate that wasn't there previously) - I am sure that land owner now has a tainted opinion of anglers. That was far worse than this one incident.


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## doody

I agree that a public statement would fair well with us potential customers. I understand your hesitation to name the service but I do think that posting first hand experiences helps us, the "clients," to decide where to take our business as well as helps their guides be better examples to the people who hire them. I care very much about our access issues and have been involved in the process of helping to change the current legislation but I find it extremely hypocritical that the shops who organize and encourage efforts like the Capitol Hill rally turn around and break the laws in place. It does nothing but solidify the lawmaker's reason to limit access.

I think the threads here lately have been more well behaved and I'm certain a trash talking fest wouldn't ensue should the shop be named. I hope you'll reconsider about giving us all a bit more info. I rely entirely on word of mouth when picking a guide and it would sure help to hear first hand experiences. I've taken three guided trips in the past 6 months and chose them entirely on hearing good things from other customers. That being said and on a more positive note, Western Rivers and High Country Outfitters were great to deal with, fun, knowledgeable, reasonable rates, and cool guys to hang out with for an afternoon. 

Again, I hope you reconsider not dropping the name as it helps others decide where to spend our green and I believe will also help keep them honest.


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## Vanilla

The absolute defense to libel is truth. If you're telling the truth on what happened, there is nothing to worry about. 

Also, I think posting up threads like this without identifying the problem does more harm than good. Just throwing out the general "Ran into a guide and this is what happened" isn't what we need. Fact is, most guided are great dudes that care for and fight for our resource. Bug the fact is, there are some shops/guides who wouldn't help us in the fight for angler rights. It would be interesting to see if it is the same folks breaking the law. 

Spit the goods, or don't complain about it. That's my philosophy. It's the only way it can help things get better.


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## fixed blade XC-3

doody said:


> fixed blade XC-3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Haha.. You guys think the mods will let someone post something controversial. lol. Haven't you learned this is a place of fluffy pillows, silk, bad words are strickly forgiven and heaven forbid you hurt someones feel bads.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. I think this is the best moderated site of it's kind and, on this specific thread topic, I'd wager that they'd let the name drop stand.
Click to expand...

You go girl!


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## doody

fixed blade XC-3 said:


> doody said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="fixed blade XC-3":37gnxd6q]Haha.. You guys think the mods will let someone post something controversial. lol. Haven't you learned this is a place of fluffy pillows, silk, bad words are strickly forgiven and heaven forbid you hurt someones feel bads.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. I think this is the best moderated site of it's kind and, on this specific thread topic, I'd wager that they'd let the name drop stand.
Click to expand...

You go girl![/quote:37gnxd6q]

I'm sorry, was this post any more school girlish than you using "lol" in your post?


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## k2muskie

Hey I'm a girl and girls fish too and following the rules is for boys and girls....   

But on a more serious note...word to the wise on 'outing' someone...it's only a matter of time before the organization and/or person they work for gets caught...additionally maybe the guide service doesn't know about a rogue guide/employee...If it were me I'd recommend calling the guide service and state what one has seen...but thats my .02 on this topic.


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## kochanut

so whats the name of this place/guide service?


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## doody

k2muskie said:


> Hey I'm a girl and girls fish too and following the rules is for boys and girls....
> 
> But on a more serious note...word to the wise on 'outing' someone...it's only a matter of time before the organization and/or person they work for gets caught...additionally maybe the guide service doesn't know about a rogue guide/employee...If it were me I'd recommend calling the guide service and state what one has seen...but thats my .02 on this topic.


That's what I'd do first as well but I'm afraid that it would just get disregarded as another service related complaint and the offending guide would get a slap on the wrist, if that. A public "outing" seems to be in order in this case, especially because the guide was a jerk to the angler who questioned him. As someone who does take guided trips, I'd be the first to call and tell them I'm taking my business elsewhere.

It sucks to have to come to this conclusion as I really had wished these folks were fighting the laws on our behalf but its becoming painfully obvious that about money maybe all their hoopla about "our" access issues were really only well disgised rallies for their own personal gain. I say name names and hit them where it hurts.


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## sinergy

Next time take pictures, pack a camera phone camera (I take mine in a in a ziplock bag) . Snap a few pics of the offenders that way not only do you have proof for the DWR but we have morons a picture so we can heave heavy objects at them.. :twisted: :twisted:


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