# .243 on Elk?!



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I had been hearing rumors of this for a while now, but I honestly didnt believe it. Sorry if this has been posted before






Seems like Bullsnot posted something about Grey Bull Precision a while ago...


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Maybe its me but that seems abit far for a .243 with most any animal. I know it did the job in the video but a swirl of wind and that bullet could of been aways off. Then all you have is a wounded elk. I'm not saying the 243 is bad for elk I know plenty of hunter that have used it with great success, just at that range so much can effect a small bullet like that.
But if its not illegal then I guess its just my opinion. 

And I believe the previous video from greybull was a 1000+ yard shot on a coyote. Could be wrong though.


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## legacy (Sep 30, 2007)

Pretty cool video. It's ALL about shot placement. I personaly wouldn't use a .243 on an elk, but for a female or kid (but not limited to) I think it is acceptable. I think in this situation she is better off using a .243 than a higher recoil gun. It comes down to competency.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

mikevanwilder said:


> And I believe the previous video from greybull was a 1000+ yard shot on a coyote. Could be wrong though.


I think you are right Mike. Now that you mention it, I remember that video... good memory


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Its absolutely about shot placement, and .243/6mm is very flat shooting, making it easier to make those shots. That was a nice shot, I've shot deer that dropped like that at similar yardages with a 6mm, but not Elk. Another nice thing about that caliber is the range it can be loaded at, 50-115gr bullets, good for foxes all the way up to moose.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Last year on the spike elk hunt a bull decided to cross an opening 600 yards in front of a camp. The camp sounded like a war zone with all of the shots fired. Even though multiple hunters should not be shooting at the same game adrenalyne took over. After several shots and a long distance covered the bull stopped at the end of a clearing and simultaneously all 6 hunters fired one last attempt at the bull. One shot connected and dropped the spike in its tracks. From a distance I observed fourwheelers and trucks racing each other to the downed animal. Upon inspection all of the hunters boasted about the size of their rifles and argued about who fired the most rounds. One old man insisted that only his .338 would have had such a drastic impact on the bull. Another insisted that his .300 RUM was the flattest shooting. One hunter just started to field dress the animal and during his inpection he found a 6mm round... Which eliminated all of the 6 shooters but 1...... 

A 13 yr old girl who turned 14 in December who had only 1 spent shell.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Nambaster said:


> Last year on the spike elk hunt a bull decided to cross an opening 600 yards in front of a camp. The camp sounded like a war zone with all of the shots fired. Even though multiple hunters should not be shooting at the same game adrenalyne took over. After several shots and a long distance covered the bull stopped at the end of a clearing and simultaneously all 6 hunters fired one last attempt at the bull. One shot connected and dropped the spike in its tracks. From a distance I observed fourwheelers and trucks racing each other to the downed animal. Upon inspection all of the hunters boasted about the size of their rifles and argued about who fired the most rounds. One old man insisted that only his .338 would have had such a drastic impact on the bull. Another insisted that his .300 RUM was the flattest shooting. One hunter just started to field dress the animal and during his inpection he found a 6mm round... Which eliminated all of the 6 shooters but 1......
> 
> A 13 yr old girl who turned 14 in December who had only 1 spent shell.


 :mrgreen: That is priceless!


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Nambaster said:
> 
> 
> > Last year on the spike elk hunt a bull decided to cross an opening 600 yards in front of a camp. The camp sounded like a war zone with all of the shots fired. Even though multiple hunters should not be shooting at the same game adrenalyne took over. .....
> ...


+1!


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## 4pointmuley (Sep 18, 2007)

A friend of mine usually draws for a cow elk permit yearly. He always takes his 22-250. He usually gets within 200-400 yards and hit the cow elk in the head. Drops them like a brick! I have seen him do it plenty of times! My wife loves her .243 for deer!


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

That's a good story Nambaster. It speaks well for shot-placement and women shooters. I'm not a big fan of small calibers for elk but it can get the job done with a well-placed shot. My only caution is, (here goes Chuck again), I have known John Burns for a while now and he is a phenominal shooter and shooting coach. If he can do it with a 243 doesn't mean it's OK for the average Joe. BUT, if your well-practiced in longerange shooting and shot placement, I'd stand next to anyone while they take the shot.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I work very hard to ensure that my equipment and myself are ready for any reasonable shot and I personally would not chose any 24 caliber rifle for elk. As far as a rifle for women/kids, I much prefer the 308 win. My girls have shot one since they were very young with light loads. Before you blow this thread up, this is only my opinion. I have a Cooper model 22 in 243 that is accurate enough to put a bullet in the cornea of an elk out to 500 yards or so and I guarantee that I could kill elk very easily with it, however , I have never taken it elk hunting and probably never will. There are simply much better cartridges in my opinion. Remember........Ted Nugent killed a water buffalo with a 10MM Glock handgun but that doesn't make that a good choice for water buffalo hunting.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Would I use a .243 on elk? Probably not. Shot placement is definitely key, but I would want a slightly larger caliber. You don't need to shoot a .338 or 300 RUM to take one down.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

That video could have gone either way. It drops in its track or it runs off and hunter thinks they miss. More then likley a shooter that shoots those kind of shots wont walk over and even check if they hit it "to far". If they do they might not even find the exact impact area and top it off which cow track is the right one to track.



Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## El Casador (Aug 27, 2009)

Cool video! hell of a shot 8)


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Hmm, I've seen a bull elk absorb (3) .300RUM 220 GR bear claws from less than 100 yards in the boiler and keep on trucking for more than 100 yards. No thanks and no reason.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree with Tree, talking shot placement, I've always been taught to shoot for the chest. I've seen a cow elk get shot through both lungs with a 140 grain .270 and she didn't slow down or even hunch. Everyone thought it was a miss (we wondered how at 150 yards). The next shot was in the head and she dropped but it was interesting to see the hole through her chest too when we got up to her and cleaned her.

I've also seen elk shot with a 30-06 and .300wsm that took out the heart but didn't drop the elk right there. I guess I'm skeptical about always dropping an elk with one shot unless it's in the head or spine, no matter the caliber.

I don't believe most people would be wise to shoot for the head at anything near that range, .243 or .338.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I've been a part of quite a few elk being killed and the minute you have an elk dive down into a deep nasty hole after being shot with a smaller caliber and you have to pack that sumbitch out, chances are you'll think twice about that .243. Now, shot placement is key and this can happen with large calibers as well, but you just can't dismiss shock value and straight up energy and mass. I'm a fan of taking out an elk's wheels first and a .338/378 is gonna flatten his tires way more often than a 25-06 put in the same spot.

That being said, I shoot .270 wsm 140GR accubonds at everything I rifle hunt, so I should probably shut up! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I'll throw in a what if.... If my daughter kicked over my 30-06 while I am cutting firewood and the scope comes loose during the hunt and I happen to have a Braztech rossi single shot Trifecta sitting in the cabin, I am not going stop elk hunting... 

If.... my dad has a Ruger M77 in .243 sitting in the gun cabinet and my wife doesnt have a gun and she will not approve the purchase of another gun then I am going to train her to shoot that gun and still buy her a spike or a cow tag. 

If.... The price on a Mossberg ATR is $300 and the store is offering it in .243 and .308 and my wife says that she wants the one will less recoil.....................................I am walking out of the store with the .308


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

While I jumped on board with the little gun guys for deer I can’t with elk. My 25-06 load that makes pudding out of the vitals on a deer (and punches on through) just barely gets to the vitals of an elk. I’ve watched an elk through binoculars while my bother hit it three times in the chest with a 30-06 (factory 180gr) before it decided something was wrong, took a couple steps then tipped over. Just my opinion but at least .30 caliber for elk, and either a fast .30 or premium bullets is a good idea.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I have take several elk with a .243 and I have posted several times a few discarded facts about smller calibers like the .243 and it's effectiveness when compared against big boys like the .300 or .338.

It's a long winded argument and most guys won't admit that a smaller caliber can perform better than a bigger one. Bottom line is that what I have stated before has just been proven by this video. A properly loaded round in a properly tuned gun with a properly placed shot can work wonders even if it is a small caliber.

Congrats to Cassandra ona well executed shot.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

"It's a long winded argument and most guys won't admit that a smaller caliber can perform better than a bigger one."


OK, you've got my interest with this one. I am fairly competent at ballistics and terminal performance, have reloaded and shot precision and long-range rifle for many years and never heard such a thing. I know that smaller cartridges are often much more efficient than bigger ones meaning that the velocity/kinetic energy gains are not proportionate with the amount of propellent used, but I would like an explanation of how a 243 Win can "out perform" a .300 or .338 in any way. Maybe I stand to learn something?-----------SS


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I guess you just have to decide for yourself which lethality measurement you are fond of and go with it. Here are a few ways to measure cartridge effectiveness.

Hatcher’s RSP 
A-Square Penetration Index 
A-Square Shock Power Index 
Tappan’s WAVE factor 
IPSC Power Factor 
Lott’s Estimated Effective Energy: EEE1 EEE2
Taylor Knock-Out Value 
Fuller Index 
Matunas Optimum Game Weight 
Wootter’s Lethality Index 
Arnold Arms Relative Performance Index 
Elmer Keith Knockdown Factor 
Parker Ackley’s Momentum 

I almost forgot good old kinetic energy.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

My simpleton brain embraces easy things like FPS and ft/lbs. and PSI and BC when it comes to quantifying ballistic performance. Don't think that I'm not checking out a few of your offerings though Cooky. With names like Lott, Keith, and my personal favorite Ackley, this should give me some reading material for the weekend.-----SS


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I am not very good with words and have difficulty sometimes expressing what I am thinking (I would make a horrible politician). I was refering exactly to what you stated. The efficiency and use of kinetic energy that the small calibers have can be tweaked and exploited just the same as the large ones. Sometimes there is such a thing as too much energy. 

My brother (a former army sniper) explained this to me and it made sence. Too much speed and energy can delay the expansion of the bullet and actually cause less damage than a slower bullet (or one with a bit less energy) that will expand right in the middle of the boiler room. I am not as smart as other folks and I have a hard time explaing it even though I was taught and was able to understand it. Forgive my lack of eloquence i hope you understood.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Have fun reading those guys, they are interesting. They don’t agree much though. From what I have learned from them a .270 Winchester isn’t enough for a sickly coyote (Elmer Keith) but a .230 Ackley is adequate and legal for anything in the U.S. (P.O. Ackley).

Madhunter, I know what you are saying; bullets with a good sectional density (?.250) at a reasonable velocity (?2700fps) kill very well. But I believe the mass of the bullet has to go up in relation to the penetration required for a sure kill. I occasionally hit an animal a little less than perfectly. With enough mass the bullet penetrates and does enough damage that they go down (so far).


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm with you now Madhunter, and agree that many times less is better. This is the same logic I use when singing the praised of the 308 Win. What cartridge gives you more bang for your buck than the 308? The 243 is great as well and happens to be near the top of my favorites. There isn't a rifle in my safe that I shoot better than my Cooper model 22 in 243. Bugchuckr shoots it pretty well too!

Cooky, your comment brings up a great debate that I started on a forum once. Who do you side with on big game cartridges?" Keith or O'Connor. I tend to agree more with Keith, but like Jacks cartridges more. What say you guys?-------SS


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

My mind is a simple one so it is easiest to agree with O'Connor. Just getting a .270 would seem to suffice.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Geez guys! No wonder I like bowhunting better! It's hard enough trying to find the right broadhaed from the 2 or 3 dozen available, let alone trying to find the right size, shape, weight, composition, construction, flight and expansion characteristics, and speeds of hundreds of bullets and cartridges available to rifle hunters. I just go to Walmart and buy the cheapest 180 grain .308 bullet that fits the gun my dad gave me before he passed away, 'cause I am a bowhunter even when I have a rifle in my hands and my setup does just fine at 50 yards.

(Ok, I actually use the 30-30 once in a while and the .223 for doe hunts with my grandkids, but I still go to Walmart!)


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

We make it much more complicated than it really is for the sake of conversation. You are 100% that all you need to do is go to WalMart and get a box of cheapie shells for whatever gun you have and go kill deer. All the extra fanfare is self-imposed.---------SS


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I want Keith’s cartridges with the recoil and trajectory of O’Connor’s. Why not? They bring out a new “super-mag” of some sort twice a year; they ought to be able to do it eventually (I had high hopes for the .338 Federal).
External ballistics is fun to discuss and study. But if you study it too close you will find that, like SS says, there is a lot of “fanfare”.
Madhunter, What bullet do you use and how fast? It must be a good combination.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Cooky.... I don't reload myself, my brother does that for me. I'm hoping santa brings me a reloading press. But to answer your question my bro loads my .243 with 115gr berger vld not sure what powder he uses but I do know it's temperature stable. The crony puts it around 3150fps. I have never shot at an animal at more than 400 yards with any load. My longest elk kill with the .243 was just about 160 to 170. I would never try what the video showed.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> The crony puts it around 31500fps.


 :shock:


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> MadHunter wrote:
> The crony puts it around 31500fps.


 :shock: :shock: 
Loke, That's just what I thought when I read it. :mrgreen:


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

So I have a twitch in my finger! *OOO* 

There... I changed it.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

That explains a lot. That puts your sectional density at .278 and your impact velocity somewhere near 2750fps. It takes a 190gr .308 bullet to have a SD that high and I don’t see a .257 that gets there. Nicely thought out combination, with the bullet performance of those Bergers you are getting everything a .243 has to offer.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Well as was explained to me, SD is not as important as bullet construction. Thanks to BAX, I was introduced to the Barnes 130gr TSX. As a result, I am considering loading this bullet for my daughter in her .308 on everything from Antelope to Elk just due to the fact that we can cover a 7 shot group with a quarter at a 100 yards and the reputation the Barnes bullets have for penetration and weight retention even though the SD is a little low.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Bo0YaA said:


> Well as was explained to me, SD is not as important as bullet construction. Thanks to BAX, I was introduced to the Barnes 130gr TSX. As a result, I am considering loading this bullet for my daughter on everything from Antelope to Elk just due to the fact that we can cover a 7 shot group with a quarter at a 100 yards and the reputation the Barnes bullets have for penetration even though the SD is a little low.


Thats a great little group! Too bad those things are so darned expensive to shoot. I look forward to hearing how your daughter does next season


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Yeh thanks a ton Bax, it was the lowest load in the book using IMR-3031 (45gr). However it still gets the bullet goin 2972 FPS. Pretty impressive!! Ill buy one box to reload for hunting then let her practice with the much cheaper 125gr. Speer bullets.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Bo0YaA said:


> Well as was explained to me, SD is not as important as bullet construction. Thanks to BAX, I was introduced to the Barnes 130gr TSX. As a result, I am considering loading this bullet for my daughter in her .308 on everything from Antelope to Elk just due to the fact that we can cover a 7 shot group with a quarter at a 100 yards and the reputation the Barnes bullets have for penetration and weight retention even though the SD is a little low.


Once you get this load figured out, would you be willing to share it to me? I have a .308 that I am always messing with and I am ready to just pick a load and set it up for my daughter.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Sorry for the little thread hijack here but I will make it quick  

Here you go but just in case you can not read my chicken scratch its: 45 gr. IMR-3031, 130gr Barnes TSX, CCI-200 primer, trim= 2.005, COAL= 2.810 

Oh and it looks like I did exaggerate a little..sry I didn't actually have a quarter that day to measure with


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Looks like a nice group. The majority of the shots are in a quarter sized group. The other shots prob were jerked shots  Still good enough to hit a deer!


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Awesome, Thanks.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I emphasize SD because I have seen more small caliber bullets fail because of over expansion resulting in lack of penetration than I have from too much penetration. I assume that modern bullets will expand as designed if they are used within their recommended velocity range (until I am proven wrong). As caliber goes up I think it gets less important because simple mass takes over.
My experience does not include all copper bullets. I wonder if maybe comparing their SD with a lead core bullet’s SD may not work?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Sectional density is a is a ratio of a bullet's weight to its diameter. It should be an indicator of how well a bullet will penetrate. It is only useful when you compare bullets of identical construction. Once a bullet starts to expand, its diameter increases, and the sectional density decreases.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

If anyone says that ballistics is not rocket science they must be living in a different reality me.

Thanks for the info Cooky and Loke. I am sure it will make more sence to me as I start to reload myself and experiment with different combinations. Is ballistic gel avilable to the public? (I hope it doesn't sound like a dumb question)


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

MadHunter said:


> If anyone says that ballistics is not rocket science they must be living in a different reality me.
> 
> Thanks for the info Cooky and Loke. I am sure it will make more sence to me as I start to reload myself and experiment with different combinations. Is ballistic gel avilable to the public? (I hope it doesn't sound like a dumb question)


You can make it yourself. On youtube there are videos showing you how to DIY.
Just need some Gellitan.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Dang. This stuff is a perfect example of picking the fly crap out of the pepper.


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

Speaking of ballistics gel and bullet construction, I did some tests on 22 cal bullets for big game. First I tried lining up water bottles and shooting into them but I failed to capture a bullet, they tended to veer off course on impact. So I got a bunch of newspaper and made a bale out of it. I then soaked it in water. It was about two and a half feet thick. I loaded up some 55 grain nosler solid base "zippedo's". Some 55 grain strange blunt nosed full metal jackets ( yes i have some strange old stuff in my reloading supplies) and finally some 55 grain nosler ballistic tips. I estimate near 3300 fps velocity on these loads. I shot them at 100 yards. The full metal went all the way through it. It made a 1 inch diameter hole all the way through as well. Then the zippedo. These bullets are like a partition except the back half is solid copper. It went in nearly 16 inches and made a nice three to four inch wound cavity. The bullet stayed mostly intact but lost 17 grains. The ballistic tip went in about 10 inches. The First 5 inches there was a four inch diameter hole tapering quickly to a 22 call hole for the rest. At the bottom was a small copper disc. All of the entrance holes were the same tatered 1 inch hole. All of these bullets had the same sectional density so bullet construction is the real key to small calibers for bigger game. And wet newspaper is a pretty good test media. I did use the zippedo with good success on big game.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

If you had done the test with 45gr, 55gr and 62gr bullets that all expanded in a similar manner what do you suppose the results would have been?


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

hmmm? I suppose the results would have been similar. The question would be would the different speeds of the three make a difference in penetration or damage? I use 55 grain bullets cause they are the flatest shooting in the caliber i have. the lighter bullets start faster but drop off sooner. The heavy bullets start slower and drop more.

I have witnessed 64 grain factory winchester 22-250 on big game and the results were alot of internal damage and full pass through or near full pass through. Heres something interesting though on same sized game that combo passed all the way through at 300 yards and at 100 yards the bullet stopped on the far side skin. Also had a friend who shot an antelope with a .243 55 grain nosler ( varmint bullet) at 274 yards and it ran 40 yards and piled up. The bullet did not pass through and disintegrated but the hole in the rib cage and lungs was impressive! I personally wouldn't do that but it did work.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Sectional density is, as Loke pointed out, the ratio of bullet length to diameter. A bullet of a given diameter that has greater sectional density will be longer and heavier. So, assuming similar velocity and construction, the bullet with the greater sectional density will penetrate more. In the context of small diameter bullets being used on larger game that is a good thing. 
I use SD it as an easy way to know if a bullet is heavy for caliber or not.


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