# SFW Solution



## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

So I've been thinking about it long and hard over the weekend. SFW locally here in Utah has the wildlife board by the balls, and we all know it. I lot of us seem to be putting a lot of effort up to try and go head to head against SFW, who as we know, has better funding than us, has better resources than a lot of us, and gets tons of postive PR because of the conservation work they do. 

So my questions are as follows. 
Who does SFW intend to benefit with their conservation work?
Is their members, their adminitration or in their mind the average sportsman?

Secondly, who do they listen to? Their members, their administration or the average hunter? 

I've just been thinking that we're going to try to turn the tide on the elk issues here in Utah, and SFW doesn't have a lot of incentive to listen to most of us. They know that they stand to gain millions of dollars in funding for the tags they auction off for these elk hunts, and that they will also gain quite a bit from memberships to SFW. So as the average sportman, who doesn't buy a conservation tag or a membership, what incentive do they have to listen to us at all?

I'm just curious if anyone here thinks it would do any good to be a member of SFW, and to contact them with your membership identification and clearly state that as a member, you have issue with the way the system is headed. And that if enough members were to submit a wish to see their organization change, would it hold more weight than a group that doesn't benefit them at all?


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## muleydeermaniac (Jan 17, 2008)

I really don't think it matters either way! The way to their ears is through your wallet! From what I have seen their board does what they feel is the way it should be. They don't give a rip about me and my kids future of hunting nor yours.


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## HunterGeek (Sep 13, 2007)

So I've been reading all these posts here over the last few days complaining about SFW and how out of touch they are, but I'm sort of having to read between the lines some. I just don't follow SFW all that closely, so how about someone filling us all in on just what the problem is with them. What have they done lately that's so riled people up?


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## CUT-EM (Dec 19, 2007)

Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but how does conserving habitat on public property not help everybody? They arent just doing it on the LE units they are working all over the place.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

CUT-EM said:


> .....how does conserving habitat on public property not help everybody?.....


When everybody can't use it.

The average hunter is a necessary evil, nothing more.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

> So I've been reading all these posts here over the last few days complaining about SFW and how out of touch they are, but I'm sort of having to read between the lines some. I just don't follow SFW all that closely, so how about someone filling us all in on just what the problem is with them. What have they done lately that's so riled people up?So I've been reading all these posts here over the last few days complaining about SFW and how out of touch they are, but I'm sort of having to read between the lines some. I just don't follow SFW all that closely, so how about someone filling us all in on just what the problem is with them. What have they done lately that's so riled people up?


The SFW is a double edged sword. They do some really good habitat improvement projects. And for that I applaud them.

Then they reccomend limiting opportunity, by lowering permit numbers to the public (in the case of the elk hunt) and making hunts 5 or 3 day hunts (in the case of the deer hunts) 
DWR biologists reccomend not changing the number of days for the deer hunt, but because SFW says it should be 5 days or less, it becomes the regulation. Despite the fact that the majority of the deer harvested in this state are taken on opening morning.

The elk permit issue is that the number of LE elk tags available to the public is minimal at best, and the reccomendations by the elk board and groups like SFW are to restrict them further so that the average age of harvested elk is a year older on almost all the units.

On the flip side of this equation, is that the number of new hunters each year entering the drawings is larger than the number of tags allotted. Meaning every year the total number of applicants goes significantly up, pushing that edge of the bonus points needed to draw back by another year, just about every year.

What that means in the end, is that people entering the drawing process now have very little hope of ever drawing a tag, because the problem will be compounding yearly. Kind of like having a credit card that you only make a minimum payment on, and the interest increases every year. You don't ever really have a chance to pay it off or get out.

The guys who planned ahead or have been around long enough to already be waist deep in the bonus point pool are fortunate enough that they will eventually by luck or by persistence see the end of the tunnel, at least a lot of them will.

But for the people who are just starting this road, and those yet to come, SFW's reccomendations will turn Utah's LE elk tag system into a system that is flawed and incapable of delivering on it's promise, much like the Social Security program.

What I think a lot of the hunters would like to see is an opportunity for a small number of the LE units to be changed to increase the total number of permits, and release some of the pressure on the dammed up LE tag system. Give the guy who just wants a chance at a decent bull, who's not at all concerned about the inches or B.C score, the opportunity to use his points on a "lower quality" unit (I know pro is cringing at the use of quality here) and by quality I'm referring to the current definition, measured in antler inchess and higher overall score. 
But at least give the option, the choice for some of us to define quality in terms of the experience, and the opportunity rather than the status quo. Most of us don't have a goal or funding to become the next Denny Austad, and just want a chance to hunt something with more than one point. And that's the beef with SFW and many of the other "conservation" (read - horn porn promotion) groups.

Good summary?


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

I have been following the discussions about the new Elk management plan over the last few days, and decided it was time for me to chime in. 

I am not a trophy hunter. I hunt deer and elk almost every year, but I have never put in for an LE tag because I really do not care about killing a trophy. I just want to have the experience of hunting with family and friends, and to have a chance to fill my freezer. I have nothing against trophy hunters though, and I sympathize with those of you who have been patiently waiting to draw an LE elk tag for years and now you are being told that your odds of drawing an LE tag are going to get even worse. To me it sounds like the DWR has not kept promises that were made to you when you bought into their system. But what bothers me the most is this "SFW" organization. I admit I don't know much about it, but from what I have read on this forum it sounds like a classic example of a special interests group, and I have long despised the undeserved power and influence special interests groups have in politics. Whether it be local governments, or in Washington DC, special interest groups are anathema to democracy, in my opinion. In particular, Utah politicians seem to be very inept at standing up to special interests groups. How else could a company like "Energy Solutions" keep getting its way to slowly turn Utah into the radioactive waste landfill for the rest of the country, and even foreign countries, when the overwhelming majority of Utah residents are opposed to it? They do it by spending lots of money on lobbyists, PR firms and campaign contributions, which buys them a louder political voice than the people, and gets their name on an NBA arena. From what I have read about this "SFW" it appears they are the "Energy Solutions" of Utah hunting.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

WasatchOutdoors said:


> But for the people who are just starting this road, and those yet to come, SFW's recommendations will turn Utah's LE elk tag system into a system that is flawed and incapable of delivering on it's promise, much like the Social Security program.
> 
> Good summary?


I like comparing it to Social Security. Those who are close to retirement age want to keep things as they are, those who are new in the work force know from day one they will likely never get their money back, but they are forced to pay in. In the LE elk pool, the new hunter, or the hunter who just became eligible due to age, just getting into the game has a lottery chance of drawing in their lifetime with no assurance of every drawing a tag. Those who are older, or who have been playing the game longer know they will eventually get their tag, and they don't give a rat's butt about the rest of those in the game. In fact, they want you to willingly delay getting a tag so that they are more likely to kill a B&C bull. It is the very definition of elitism/selfishness.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Well written, WasatchOutdoors. I agree 100%!


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

Thanks Birddogger, I appreciate that.


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

Well stated guys!

Here is my take on the situation; I'm on the last year of my waiting period and I don't think I want to try and get back into this rediculous game again. I think I will save my money and go hunt Idaho every 3-4 years for a branch antlered bull and hunt spikes here in the meantime to keep the freezer full. Idaho's archery seasons are waaaaaay more hunter friendly that Utah's. Unless someone could convert Don Peay to be an archer.....hmm, think of that possibility, we would be able to hunt elk all September and the rifle guys would get the heat of the summer. :lol: :lol: 
Anyway, Utah's once in a lifetime elk hunts are not for me anymore, good luck guys!


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Elkoholic8 said:


> Well stated guys!
> 
> Here is my take on the situation; I'm on the last year of my waiting period and I don't think I want to try and get back into this rediculous game again. I think I will save my money and go hunt Idaho every 3-4 years for a branch antlered bull and hunt spikes here in the meantime to keep the freezer full. Idaho's archery seasons are waaaaaay more hunter friendly that Utah's. Unless someone could convert Don Peay to be an archer.....hmm, think of that possibility, we would be able to hunt elk all September and the rifle guys would get the heat of the summer. :lol: :lol:
> Anyway, Utah's once in a lifetime elk hunts are not for me anymore, good luck guys!


Elkoholic, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't ever talk about hunting with a bow and Idaho ever again!!!

As for your idea of going north every 3-4 years, that is fine and dandy for now, but what if Don gets his way here after you draw your OIAL elk LE tag... he has chapters of SFW in ID and WY and CO that for now are grass roots... but you know that if he gets his way here, they are next... we have to dig up this weed by its roots before it becomes a plague.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I have a few takes on this subject. Someone mentioned hunting Idaho. Before you go slamming Don and SFW you had better realize who has done more for the wolf fight in Idaho than just about anyone else. I read the latest email about the herd sizes in Idaho and the Wolf devastation just this morning. The numbers are staggering. 
Just a thought but what if everyone on here who is complaining about SFW go out and JOIN them. Yes JOIN them. They have always said that they wanted to become an 800 pound gorilla. They have done that. Now who wants to fight an 800 pound gorilla. I certainly don't. But what if you were to add more voices to the big voice that is being sounded. They already have the foot in the door. You will need to become a 900 pound Gorilla to take their foot out and insert yours in. Why not go to the source and say, we have many others who want their voices heard as well and you guys seem to have the microphone so how about seeing a few things our way. Seems a lot smarter than complaining and getting nothing done...........................Sometimes I even amaze myself! :mrgreen:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

> I read the latest email about the herd sizes in Idaho and the Wolf devastation just this morning. The numbers are staggering.


Brought to you by those who NEED this to be true.



> They have always said that they wanted to become an 800 pound gorilla. They have done that.


Yep, and who knows where the gorilla is going to **** next....



> They already have the foot in the door.


Door? They are closing many doors that they once claimed to be opening.

Maybe once upon a time, when this was all a fairy tale. Now the fairy tale has come true, only the ogre is winning by deception, politics and brute force.

You're a bible guy 22, why didn't David just buddy up to Goliath and add a hundred pounds to that gorilla?????? :shock:


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> > I read the latest email about the herd sizes in Idaho and the Wolf devastation just this morning. The numbers are staggering.
> 
> 
> Brought to you by those who NEED this to be true. Oh Please! :roll:
> ...


Yep, and knows where the gorilla is going to **** next....



> They already have the foot in the door.


Door? They are closing many doors that they once claimed to be opening.

Maybe once upon a time, when this was all a fairy tale. Now the fairy tale has come true, only the ogre is winning by deception, politics and brute force.

Your a bible guy 22, why didn't David just buddy up to Goliath and add a hundred pounds to that gorilla?????? :shock:[/quote:20j2vumg] You had better get a bigger sling! I didn't say that you are going to add 100 pounds that that Gorrilla but it's going to take a Gorilla that is bigger than thiers. I am not trying to back them up. I am simply coming up with ideas for a better solution.


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## HunterGeek (Sep 13, 2007)

Thanks for the explanations WasatchOutdoors and everyone else. I think I better understand the issue now. As for SFW and Don Peay, if I were him/them, I'd be paying attention to my base of support and monitor forums like this for a sense of how things were going. For that matter, I might even join in the discussions to defend my organization's actions. Then again, their absence from places like this seem to speak something about whose opinions he most values and the crowd that really matters to them.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

> ..... Those who are older, or who have been playing the game longer know they will eventually get their tag, and they don't give a rat's butt about the rest of those in the game. In fact, they want you to willingly delay getting a tag so that they are more likely to kill a B&C bull. It is the very definition of elitism/selfishness.


Pro... You are just wrong when you say this!!! and as an older hunter I am offended by that statement. Most older hunters want most of all a return to the days when the hunt was a family affair. The day when very very few people could even tell you what the words "400 pt bull" made reference to. A day when all public property was open to all hunters. The whole idea of LE hunts and their establishment has been the down fall of the very tradition of hunting that we, the older hunter you are calling selfish and elitist, are longing for. 
Do you think it is just a coincidence that hunting interest has declined steadily ever since LE was adopted? Do you really think that going out and blasting a huge trophy animal is what sent us old timers into the field year after year? If you think that is the case...Pro, you don't even have a clue.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> > ..... Those who are older, or who have been playing the game longer know they will eventually get their tag, and they don't give a rat's butt about the rest of those in the game. In fact, they want you to willingly delay getting a tag so that they are more likely to kill a B&C bull. It is the very definition of elitism/selfishness.
> 
> 
> Pro... You are just wrong when you say this!!! and as an older hunter I am offended by that statement. Most older hunters want most of all a return to the days when the hunt was a family affair. The day when very very few people could even tell you what the words "400 pt bull" made reference to. A day when all public property was open to all hunters. The whole idea of LE hunts and their establishment has been the down fall of the very tradition of hunting that we, the older hunter you are calling selfish and elitist, are longing for.
> Do you think it is just a coincidence that hunting interest has declined steadily ever since LE was adopted? Do you really think that going out and blasting a huge trophy animal is what sent us old timers into the field year after year? If you think that is the case...Pro, you don't even have a clue.


You're killing me BP, try and read the **** posts before piping off. This is about the LE scheme as those who are in the point pools. When I referred to the older hunters that are in favor of this, I was CLEARLY referring to the older hunters in the LIMITED ENTRY pool. If you read ANY of my post over the last week you would know where I stand on this issue, yet you come after me and make attacks based on bogus conclusions. Maybe you just are having a bad day, or you are just hell bent on picking a fight with me, but either way your post is beyond weird. :?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> I have a few takes on this subject. Someone mentioned hunting Idaho. Before you go slamming Don and SFW you had better realize who has done more for the wolf fight in Idaho than just about anyone else. I read the latest email about the herd sizes in Idaho and the Wolf devastation just this morning. The numbers are staggering.
> Just a thought but what if everyone on here who is complaining about SFW go out and JOIN them. Yes JOIN them. They have always said that they wanted to become an 800 pound gorilla. They have done that. Now who wants to fight an 800 pound gorilla. I certainly don't. But what if you were to add more voices to the big voice that is being sounded. They already have the foot in the door. You will need to become a 900 pound Gorilla to take their foot out and insert yours in. Why not go to the source and say, we have many others who want their voices heard as well and you guys seem to have the microphone so how about seeing a few things our way. Seems a lot smarter than complaining and getting nothing done...........................Sometimes I even amaze myself! :mrgreen:


The end does NOT justify the means, and doing some good with doing lots of damage does NOT warrant a blanket endorsement, at least not in my humble opinion. While I do appreciate the fight SFW is putting up on the wolf issue, that doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want to get the weaponry to fight that fight. What I mean is, what good is it to fight the wolf issue so the wolves don't kill all the elk if the average hunter can't kill them either?

As for fighting/replacing the 800# gorilla, I have no desire to replace it with another group that will morph into the same gorilla only with a uglier face. Instead, I propose we shackle the ape and tell the Wildlife Board to start managing our wildlife based on the good of the animals first and the good of the hunters second, ALL the hunters not just the ones with the best lobbyists.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > What I mean is, what good is it to fight the wolf issue so the wolves don't kill all th eelk if the average hunter can't kill them either?


EXACTAMUNDO!!!


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

We should definately aspire for the good old days. I remember 1980 when I was old enough to hunt big game.

* 200,000 + deer hunters including half who where most interested in beer. Shooting gallery and nothing grew past 3 points except for private property.

* A raghorn bull was a trophy and Heaston was the choice unit. Wow someone might kill 6x6 with stubby points. 

* I think there were 5 antelope units.

* We had 3-4 desert bighorn units with something like 10 tags and no RM or California bighorns.

* Goats on Lone Peak and I think a small group on Timp.

* Turkeys? Nope

Yep things were good. Then the DWR screwed things up when they auctioned a bighorn tag for $70K and put the money to use in expanding the herd. Then they compounded their error and did the same thing with other species. See some people think they were just being proactive and creative with funding since the Cowboys in the state legislature were cutting funding and pushing to kill every grass eating elk; but true sportsmen such as those posting here know it's a conspiracy. Then the DWR screwed up further with the CWMU program in giving landowners tags. Better the private ground stay closed with the ranchers killing elk on depredation tags. 

This is my suggeestion to the "Ned and Jimbo" faction "ther skeemin ta keeps mi frum gettin a tagg". Educate yourself on where this state was and where we are today. Recognize funding from tag auctions is essential because the state won't fund the level of projects that expand herds. Sheep or Schools guess who doesn't get funding?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm all for raising money for wildlife, I'm just a bit on the anti side when it comes to raising money to pay consultants that need to perpetuate their income by further monetizing public resources and wildlife board members who may or may not benefit substantial personal gains by going to bat for lobbyists....errr.....conservationists.....err......... any rich squid that can afford to buy and politicize his way around the structure put in place for what they see exists for finding loopholes and exploiting the system because no one thought like a crook when they set it up.

It's called corruption and the good doesn't get to overshadow the bad. Keep on preaching, you're a heavy minority.

Maybe one day little Duke can be told to "go hunt Colorado".


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Yep things were good. Then the DWR screwed things up when they auctioned a bighorn tag for $70K and put the money to use in expanding the herd. Then they compounded their error and did the same thing with other species. See some people think they were just being proactive and creative with funding since the Cowboys in the state legislature were cutting funding and pushing to kill every grass eating elk; but true sportsmen such as those posting here know it's a conspiracy. Then the DWR screwed up further with the CWMU program in giving landowners tags. Better the private ground stay closed with the ranchers killing elk on depredation tags.
> 
> This is my suggeestion to the "Ned and Jimbo" faction "ther skeemin ta keeps mi frum gettin a tagg". Educate yourself on where this state was and where we are today. Recognize funding from tag auctions is essential because the state won't fund the level of projects that expand herds. Sheep or Schools guess who doesn't get funding?


Yep, these groups have done a lot of good for wildlife which is great, but somewhere down the road they have forgotten why they exist. Sometimes they need a good reminder. They shouldn't be catering to the minority of hunters, BUT ALL HUNTERS.

*Right now around 80% of ALL hunters will never draw a tag in their lifetime if we continue to give out between 2200-2600 tags. They will get to hunt LE Elk with a camera and collecting elk sheds.*

Now those people who have max points or close to max point will get this opportunity, but the rest be **** because most don't have a chance in HELL.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> As for fighting/replacing the 800# gorilla, I have no desire to replace it with another group that will morph into the same gorilla only with a uglier face. Instead, I propose we shackle the ape and tell the Wildlife Board to start managing our wildlife based on the good of the animals first and the good of the hunters second, ALL the hunters not just the ones with the best lobbyists.


EXACTLY...........until the best lobbyists part. 

Dont fight the beast! Do the Beauty and the Beast thing. By being the Beasts friend, you will gain much more ground. Get your many who believe what you do along with the rest of us common folk. Show the numbers of archers and muzzy hunters who deserve more tags at less success rates and lower score statistics. It makes sense to us, why not let them hear you with respect toward you instead of feeling that you are attempting to corner them. You had their respect before Pro............you might have lost a bit of ground now but you can gain it back with your knowledge of numbers and what makes sense. You do not shoot from the hip like so many others. Go in there with the "Plan" that will help, not make anyone feel threatened and one day I will say, "You've come far Pilgrim! You've come far!"


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Dont fight the beast! Do the Beauty and the Beast thing. By being the Beasts friend, you will gain much more ground. Get your many who believe what you do along with the rest of us common folk. Show the numbers of archers and muzzy hunters who deserve more tags at less success rates and lower score statistics. It makes sense to us, why not let them hear you with respect toward you instead of feeling that you are attempting to corner them. You had their respect before Pro............you might have lost a bit of ground now but you can gain it back with your knowledge of numbers and what makes sense. You do not shoot from the hip like so many others. Go in there with the "Plan" that will help, not make anyone feel threatened and one day I will say, "You've come far Pilgrim! You've come far!"


What you're asking is to make a DEAL with the devil himself and then finding yourself screwed. The only way to make things happen for the average joe hunters......is start making SFW hate money, and I don't see this will ever happening.

It's all about the money$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> ............................
> 
> ......................................Don gets his way here after you draw your OIAL elk LE tag... he has chapters of SFW in ID and WY and CO that for now are grass roots... but you know that if he gets his way here, they are next... we have to dig up this weed by its roots before it becomes a plague.


In Wyoming the SFW is very active and has a good following. It is more than "grass roots" here. Last week a group of them from SFW chapters from all over Wyoming, all on their own time, went to Cheyenne and lobbied for wolf de-listing in Wyoming. They are well organized and their ranks represent a broad cross section of the population here in Evanston. The Evanston SFW annual banquet always goes over well.

Locally they have assisted the Wyoming Game and Fish, the City of Evanston, the BLM, and the Upper Bear River Trout Unlimited in numerous fish and game projects. Without them the annual Evanston Kids Fishing Day, attended by over 600 kids in 2009, would not be.

I am not a member.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> It's all about the money$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


This is not pointed directly at you CS but have you noticed that people without money like to slam those who have it or are good at getting it when needed?

Forget the money! Forget the Rich guys have all the tags! Forget those who say hunting has become a Rich mans sport and get busy doing your own lobying within the so called beast. Wah, Wah will get no where! Get proactive, have your meeting, make some sense and present it in a nice fashion. It is your very best chance at making a difference. SFW has a good heart and wants to do the right things but may have become a bit off course for what many see as a clear path to our hunting future. They are good people! Work with them, not against them!


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Grandpa had a saying "some people would complain about the taxes when they win the lottery". I don't see one of you self professed wildlife experts dispute the fact that our big game herds with the exception of deer are doing well. If you don't like SFW, RMEF, FNAWS, SCI or other conservation organizations then present a solution to replace the funding, political influence, and volunteers they provide. 

Treehuger; why would I hunt Colorado? Utah is great.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> This is not pointed directly at you CS but have you noticed that people without money like to slam those who have it or are good at getting it when needed?


I know this wasn't directed towards me otherwise you would be wrong again. I do make a lot of money which in turn lets me hunt 3 different states for multiple animals and NO they arent special hunts that are given to me for FREE. I buy everything.



> Forget the money! Forget the Rich guys have all the tags! Forget those who say hunting has become a Rich mans sport and get busy doing your own lobying within the so called beast. Wah, Wah will get no where! Get proactive, have your meeting, make some sense and present it in a nice fashion. It is your very best chance at making a difference. SFW has a good heart and wants to do the right things but may have become a bit off course for what many see as a clear path to our hunting future. They are good people! Work with them, not against them!


Who is the Wildlife Board going to listen to most. 1. SFW ( with all their money and power) or 2. The average joe hunters?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> This is not pointed directly at you CS but have you noticed that people without money like to slam those who have it or are good at getting it when needed?


BUT *Elk22* you did slam others by this comment. SFW wouldn't be able to sell tags for a couple hundred thousand dollars if they didn't keep the number of LE elk tags very low so that we have a lot of trophy bulls.

This is what I mean when I say it's about the MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So of course they are going to recommend cutting tags because of their personal gain.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Who is the Wildlife Board going to listen to most. 1. SFW ( with all their money and power) or 2. The average joe hunters?


That's my point! The reason that SFW is known as being an elite group is because that is who belongs to it. If the common folk would get involved "within" SFW, their voices would be heard as well. Get in there and rub shoulders with these boys. Once they see that you are "real" they will listen to you as well. I am telling you guys something that works..........I did not get these gray hairs easily. They are a wealth of knowledge when it comes to common sense and what works vs. what doesn't.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Scott, if I thought working with the beast were possible I would do so, as I have in the past. But, in order to work with the beast the beast must be willing to work with us. I will meet with the Executive Board of SFW on this, I have met with them before and got a great reception from them on I400. Which makes me wonder how serious they took us back then or will take us now. In a room with 20+ SFW chapter presidents and SFW officers, along with the founder and full time employees of SFW, we only heard a few objections while hearing several agreements and kudos. Yet, here it is 1 1/2 years later and they dismissed any/all possibility of compromise and they recommend raising the harvest age objectives on 93% on the LE units and keeping the season dates the same as well as tag allotments to the different weapon types. I hold no illusions of killing the beast, nor do I want to. What I want is for the DWR and the Wildlife Board to make recommendations and pass regulations based on biology FIRST and hunter demands somewhere after hunter recruitment/retention. That is NOT what is happening today. Instead, I see the DWR making recommendations based on what they think will give them the least resistance from the special interest groups and the Wildlife Board seems to cater to a small segment of the hunting population. 

SFW has done many great things for wildlife throughout Utah and other states, and I have been involved in many of those projects. But, I feel they have lost the vision, are more worried about how to keep conservation permit prices high, and to be in the limelight, more than they are worried about hunter recruitment/retention and opportunity for all types of hunters.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > This is not pointed directly at you CS but have you noticed that people without money like to slam those who have it or are good at getting it when needed?
> 
> 
> BUT *Elk22* you did slam others by this comment.


I spoke the truth and if that is a slam then so be it.

I didn't make fun of someones nose or somthing they can't change. I made truthful mention of something that they CAN change.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> That's my point! The reason that SFW is known as being an elite group is because that is who belongs to it. If the common folk would get involved "within" SFW, their voices would be heard as well. Get in there and rub shoulders with these boys. Once they see that you are "real" they will listen to you as well. I am telling you guys something that works..........I did not get these gray hairs easily. They are a wealth of knowledge when it comes to common sense and what works vs. what doesn't.


Yes, but you still don't get it. SFW needs high dollars tag to even exist. If we issue more LE bull tags then it lowers the quality on the units. This is why spike tags were issued. SFW would rather see a few spikes taken out of the herd to help the bull/cow ratio than issue more mature elk tags.

Elk22, you're smart enough to know that if the quality goes down then less money is spent by the rich guy.

Yes, SFW does a lot of great things for habitat, but the average joe hunters has to sacrafice never drawing a elk tag to make this happen.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I don't know alot about SFW or any of the other conservation groups but life experience tells me large beauracracies cater to the elite of the populace. They all start out with good intentions but eventually grow into behemoths that forget why,how,and for whom and where they got their start. It is for this reason I do not support any group financially. I do enjoy doing service projects and have and will continue to participate in those on the ground activities. As far as the current system goes I think it stinks. This new proposal for elk management stinks even worse! Scott I think your a good guy but saying we should just play nice with SFW because they are so influential is shortsighted in my opinion. Would be like saying we should all change our political beliefs so we might have some sway with the Obama lovers.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> Grandpa had a saying "some people would complain about the taxes when they win the lottery". I don't see one of you self professed wildlife experts dispute the fact that our big game herds with the exception of deer are doing well. If you don't like SFW, RMEF, FNAWS, SCI or other conservation organizations then present a solution to replace the funding, political influence, and volunteers they provide.


What does managing elk for ALL hunters have to do with taxes and the lottery? :?

Yes, elk, moose, sheep, goats, bison, and antelope are doing 'well' right now in Utah. But, they are not doing 'well' because we have bull elk that are an average 6.6 years of age when killed. If the age of bulls when they are killed is the deciding factor for the health of the herd, Colorado must have the most unhealthy elk herd on the planet. Never mind they have more elk LIVING in Colorado than in all the other western states combined. This is where, IMHO, SFW has jumped the track and gone off course. Herd health can't be measured by the age/antler size of the animals killed, but instead by stability and growth in areas were it can be sustained, cow:calf ratios, new recruitment into the herd each year, having huntable numbers of males each year. What we have in Utah is rationing bull elk, then calling it "world class elk management".


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Scott, if I thought working with the beast were possible I would do so, as I have in the past. But, in order to work with the beast the beast must be willing to work with us. I will meet with the Executive Board of SFW on this, I have met with them before and got a great reception from them on I400. Which makes me wonder how serious they took us back then or will take us now. In a room with 20+ SFW chapter presidents and SFW officers, along with the founder and full time employees of SFW, we only heard a few objections while hearing several agreements and kudos. Yet, here it is 1 1/2 years later and they dismissed any/all possibility of compromise and they recommend raising the harvest age objectives on 93% on the LE units and keeping the season dates the same as well as tag allotments to the different weapon types. I hold no illusions of killing the beast, nor do I want to. What I want is for the DWR and the Wildlife Board to make recommendations and pass regulations based on biology FIRST and hunter demands somewhere after hunter recruitment/retention. That is NOT what is happening today. Instead, I see the DWR making recommendations based on what they think will give them the least resistance from the special interest groups and the Wildlife Board seems to cater to a small segment of the hunting population.
> 
> SFW has done many great things for wildlife throughout Utah and other states, and I have been involved in many of those projects. But, I feel they have lost the vision, are more worried about how to keep conservation permit prices high, and to be in the limelight, more than they are worried about hunter recruitment/retention and opportunity for all types of hunters.


This is what I am talking about Bart. You made a difference then but they lost the vision. Remind them! You make sense and they will nod their heads again.

The biggest reason that I see the elite hunters feeling that the rifle hunters should get all the rut and best opportunities is because the elite boys don't spend the time to become talented with the other weapons. I know there are some who do but for the most part, the type of hunter that I am speaking of likes big animals with the least effort. That is why I feel it important that they are educated that there are other kinds of hunters out there. They get a bad rap on here because they buy their way to big trophies. That doesn't make them bad guys. Don said the other day that he had not heard even one person who didn't like the proposed plan. I on the other hand (because of the forum) heard the opposit. It shows what class of people that I hang out with vs. he. We are all hunters and can understand eachother if we don't segragate and let Don hear some of the opposition. How can I put him down for going to bat for the guys who's voices he hears? Lets let our voices be heard as well. There must be opposition in all things! (Only a few will get that) :mrgreen:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Don said the other day that he had not heard even one person who didn't like the proposed plan. I on the other hand (because of the forum) heard the opposit. It shows what class of people that I hang out with vs. he. We are all hunters and can understand eachother if we don't segragate and let Don hear some of the opposition. How can I put him down for going to bat for the guys who's voices he hears? Lets let our voices be heard as well. There must be opposition in all things! (Only a few will get that)


Maybe Don is out of touch with a lot of average joe hunters. Maybe it's from his own choosing. I have noticed he doesn't like to talk to a lot of hunters at the RAC and wildlife board meetings. Maybe I'm wrong.

Can anyone name a US president that is out of touch with the United States? :lol: :wink:


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Bottom line is that I want many of the same things that most of you guys want. I just don't think that "fighting" is the best way to get it. They are better armed and have a bigger army. I wonder how any of you guys are still married! ha ha
Getting your point accross in a well mannered, educated sounding way is MUCH better but yet I have been accused of not "getting it"! Its like trying to talk sense to a drunk guy! :mrgreen:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

We will be meeting tomorrow at UAC, I hope to have a plan of action on place along with a proposal that will be reasonable. We will post up the results afterwords. Hopefully we can get things ironed out quickly.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Just in is a letter from SFW. I am sure that some will pick it apart but I choose to think these are good people who just need to hear OUR voice as well.

Read below:


The SFW hunts for Heroes program has been a great program, and has show our military men and women, just how much we appreciate their service and sacrifice. SFW has always put our money where our mouth is. It has also helped many people who don’t necessarily understand hunting or conservation, really come to know, Sportsmen are the good guys in the White Hats.

Thanks to Wyoming Game and Fish Commissioner Clark Allan, SFW has TWO Wyoming Commissioners deer or elk permits for the 2010 hunting season for sale – with 100% of the proceeds going to send a returned veteran on his dream hunt in Canada. When the price is right, they will be sold.

If you are interested in making a bid on ONE, or BOTH of these tags – please email me, and remember what 100% of the money will go towards, making a dream come true for a young American Hero, who wrote a blank check for all of us, up to including his life, which fortunately, that check was not cashed.

Second, Denny Austad of Idaho was SOOO touched by the SFW event last year at the Expo with Marcus Lutrell, Jeff Foxworthy and Karl Malone, that just before Christmas, he called and asked if SFW would accept a $20,000 donation for this program for 2010. Thank you Denny !! If his name rings a bell, it is because Denny is a VERY GENEROUS donor to our wildlife conservation programs as well. He also took the world record elk on Utah’s public lands in 2009.

Just one day after Denny called, Paul Niemeyer, a former Utah Wildlife Board members sent out an SOS.  An employee of a company in a small town in Southern Utah had just found out their son had been seriously injured in Iraq and was on his way to Walter Reed in DC. The family had a place to stay once they got to DC, but had no funds for airfare, or loss of work.

With the economy the way it was/is, and that close to Christmas, asking for money was hard to do, but thanks to Denny, in one fell swoop, it was easy to deliver.

Because of Denny’s generosity, SFW was able to immediately wire $1,500 to get this family back to DC to be with their son, one of our American Heroes.

Also, sitting on my Desk is a $1,500 check from the Chance Phelps Foundation to support our hunts for heroes program. It is so busy, I haven’t had the opportunity to discuss with Chance’s mom what to do with that check, many of us have been so touched by Chance and his story.

It is an honor to work with such an INCREDIBLE group of people, who just happen to be sportsmen.

Thanks to all of you, the EXPO is looking to be GREAT, AGAIN

don


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Bottom line is that I want many of the same things that most of you guys want. I just don't think that "fighting" is the best way to get it. They are better armed and have a bigger army. I wonder how any of you guys are still married! ha ha


Sometimes the bigger they are...the harder they fall.



> I just don't think that "fighting" is the best way to get it.


I don't believe anyone will be "fighting", but only discussing like men.

Otherwise, before this is over then I will be eating the heart of old gray hair. LOL jk :wink:


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> Dukes_Daddy said:
> 
> 
> > Grandpa had a saying "some people would complain about the taxes when they win the lottery". I don't see one of you self professed wildlife experts dispute the fact that our big game herds with the exception of deer are doing well. If you don't like SFW, RMEF, FNAWS, SCI or other conservation organizations then present a solution to replace the funding, political influence, and volunteers they provide.
> ...


You do understand Colorado has 10X the habitat that Utah has? Elk don't like the vast expanses of Red Rock or Salt Flats. You might want to hunt Colorado this year. Enjoy


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> Treehuger; why would I hunt Colorado? Utah is great.


It was a tongue in cheek reference to a comment Don made a few years back eluding to they who want opportunity to "go to Colorado".

22, I agree, "fighting" isn't the ticket, nor do I think going at the machine is the answer. I apologize for my ranting, if you thought I actually meant anything towards you, though by now you probably know better, my sincere apologies. :wink:

I had a good conversation with a few fellers in the last few days who know the system well and one point they made really stood out to me. The wildlife board is not governed by any laws forbidding them to accept gifts in any form or fashion, while most other government officials, who sometimes have stewardship over much less, are forbidden to accept anything over 10 bucks. I'm not saying this is what's going on, but in my opinion and others as well, some kind of accountability and check/balance needs to be 'installed' into these areas. 20 years ago this didn't matter, there just wasn't much money in it, now that we are talking 7 figures, it might be worth looking at. It's just too easy for someone to justify shady activity by calling it 'lobbying' for wildlife, to get to sleep at night.

Going head on with SFW may turn a few heads, but I'm not sure that it will accomplish what we are talking about here. It was suggested to me that a better pathway may be talking with state government officials and lobbying for policy change/reform and enlightening them to what is happening.

Bottom line is that many of us feel that the democratic processes are being ignored in lieu of dollars and it just doesn't feel right, whether it's a 1 tag or 1000, the practices that are happening are sidestepping 'we the people'.

Not on my watch.

PS

Why the hell is Keel Johnson still on the board? (Just something to think about, not looking for an answer.)


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> You do understand Colorado has 10X the habitat that Utah has? Elk don't like the vast expanses of Red Rock or Salt Flats. You might want to hunt Colorado this year. Enjoy


You again are missing the forest for all the trees. It was YOU and SFW that have implied Utah's elk herd is thriving, and you cite the 'huge' bulls as evidence. my point is that antler size has NOTHING to do with herd health. I have hunted Colorado before, as well as Idaho. I had a great time in both states chasing wapiti. I even guided in Colorado for deer/elk, and I am a firm believer that only a very small percentage of elk hunters are obsessed with only hunting elk if the odds are high for a book bull. I'll ask again, what good does it do most Utah elk hunters to have 'world class' bulls if they can't ever hunt them?


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

I find it interesting that when people make statements that make it sound like we would not have anything without those special interest group. I say garbage. Every one of those special interest groups were made on the backs of the lowly average hunter. We went to spike elk hunts for one reason only. To increase the elk herd faster. Not because the elk herd was not gaining ground. And to say that we had no big elk or big deer in the 80's is just laughable. 

The special interest groups need to remember from where they came. They do good and honorable work. They are great in organizing. But they need to remember who the average hunter is. They can have a better balance then what they are talking about. Some on here are still hung up on a all or nothing thing. I don't think that is correct. I think we are asking for a balance. Nothing more.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

elk22hunter said:


> ....but have you noticed that people without money like to slam those who have it or are good at getting it when needed?


Personally I don't hate the guy who has the big dollars. I think it is great that their boat came in and they are free to enjoy themselves. But I don't think much of the guy who wants to change where I hunt, by claiming to execpt hunting once every 5-10 years when in fact he is hunting every year but just in another state. (After re-reading I want to clarify that I am talking about "22".) In all reality there is no reason for the big dollar guy to step on the little guy.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

Elk, first off, no one is saying Denny Austad is a bad guy. He makes large donations and I'm sure he has a very big heart when it come to wildlife. And no one says that SFW is doing a bad job with their conservation work.

The issue is that groups like SFW get involved in the politics, and they have the power to change the rules as they see fit.

And unfortunately they manage almost exclusvely for the big ticket donors like Denny. I think its great that Denny can buy a tag, and that should be his perogitive. But SFW needs to keep in mind that for every one Denny throwing money in the pot, there's over 10,000 average joe hunters that want an opportunity too. And maybe we're not throwing as much money in SFW's direction as individuals, but as a group, we're throwing some pretty big money into this program as well. I mean how much do you think the average guy puts into the drawing at the expo? I'm not sure about the rest of you, but between myself and 2 neighbors, we're putting over 600 dollars into the system. I know, chump change to a group like SFW, but its a pretty big hit to each of us. And believe me, we all know we're not going to draw a tag. This is strictly money to help with conservation projects.

That being said, SFW needs to keep in mind that average joe hunter is about to collectively raise a ton of money for them 5 dollars at a time, and we'd like some representation in the tag reccomendations as well. Denny is probably an amazing guy, but he's not the only one who deserves an opportunity to hunt. That's all we're saying.

And really in the end, if groups like RMEF, SFW, and the UBA don't start giving the next generation more opportunity to hunt, they're really just eventually hurting themselves by removing incentive to care about conservation from the next generation.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > ....but have you noticed that people without money like to slam those who have it or are good at getting it when needed?
> ...


If you think that I am a money guy....................ha ha, you are barking up the wrong tree. I've never been so broke in all my life!


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

If you think that I am a money guy....................ha ha, you are barking up the wrong tree. I've never been so broke in all my life![/quote]

Naw, that's just how living in the "wild west" makes you feel. BTW Scott, I see you're gaining some more grey hairs on here :wink:


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

elk22hunter said:


> Huntoholic said:
> 
> 
> > elk22hunter said:
> ...


Sorry, my mistake.  When I read your response I was thinking how in the he!! did he come away with that. I even went out of the way to clarify that i was not talking about you personally. It's funny how a sentence changes when you forget one word. My intent was to make an observation. My humble apology. I'll go now and scrap the egg on my face off.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > Huntoholic said:
> ...


Ha ha, No Problema.


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