# Thoughts on 2nd season late deer hunt



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

If you look at the B/D ratios on some units, they are far above objective.
Problem is, most of these units have most of the deer summering on private grounds. Even during the regular hunts, most of the deer are staying on private ground.
What about a November hunt to allow the public to hunt some of these bucks once they move down onto public land?
This would give more opportunity for the public hunters and help lower the B/D ratios instead of giving out more tags during the general Oct. hunt, which doesn't help to much on lowering the B/D ratio because most the deer are still up on private ground.
Any thoughts?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm for any idea that improves hunter opportunity and quality of experience without compromising biological prudence. I also like the idea of special hunts that help ease the pressure on the tag pool. I love that the AI tag takes thousands of folks out of the draw pool for one tag. Special, later season tags would do the same thing for the general draws. Folks who want to play the game and wait for a few years at the chance for a better tag would ease the pressure making other tags easier to draw. So, I say do it if it can be done without compromising the resource.------SS


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

No Hunting during the rut.
That was a big part of moving the muzzle hunt to September.
>>O


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I love the November archery hunts in Nevada !!!

All for it in Utah on a LE , low tag deal.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

2full said:


> No Hunting during the rut.
> That was a big part of moving the muzzle hunt to September.
> >>O


It could be held the first week in Nov., the same time as the muzzleloader elk. It could even be a muzzleloader hunt.
When the muzzy hunt was moved to Sept., it was still statewide hunting. 
There was the chance of 10,000+ hunters on the same winter range. 
Now with the units controlled, only a select few units with high B/D ratios would qualify.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> I love the November archery hunts in Nevada !!!
> 
> All for it in Utah on a LE , low tag deal.


Goofy,
Why not leave these tags in the general pool to help ease pressure on the generals. Kind of like the Thousand Lakes tag. I agree that the numbers should be limited and controlled season to season, but I would like to see the general pressure spread out if possible.----SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The problem with not hunting deer in the rut is that a lot of them rut at different times. The deer in the Book Cliffs may start in the middle of September. I have also seen the deer on Elk Ridge in full rut during the October deer season when it was a general tag.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

The only problem I see with them is the buck to doe ratios next to the privite land are poor to none I dont think the does on the public side would get breed without protecting something.
So its a no vote for me on general deer rut hunts


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

Im going to have to say no for the simple reason is the deer just cannot stand any more preasure on them there numbers are struggling to say the least so the last thing they need is to have more of them shot out. Late hunts may be great if we had enough deer to go around but the only units that have that good of buck to do ratios are either already limited entry or mostly private property units. I truly wish that we could enjoy a late season hunt but what buck s we do have that survive the hunting season really do need to be left alone to do the breeding.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

mack, did you even read my post or just the title?
Many of the bucks that reside on the private property units do move down onto WMAs or BLM in early Nov. *BEFORE *the rut kicks in or at least before most does are ready to breed.
I'm not talking about units like 18,19 or even 23. So relax (1 eye).
If there was a second rifle hunt on the LEs, it sure would better the odds on the first rifle season.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I'm all for it. As a general hunt.


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## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

If it has to be a general hunt using preference points just make certain life timers can't take all the tags like the thousand lakes fiasco. 10% max or just make them put in the draw for it, but not have to pay the tag fee if they draw. Archery or muzzy only. Dedicated hunters can't hunt it either as part of their unit. The only general units I can see this being useful for are zion and East canyon/Morgan. Were there others u were thinking of? Neb o has some private land issues too but a really low bd ratio, but still could be useful on certain areas of the unit to balance it out.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

flinger said:


> If it has to be a general hunt using preference points just make certain life timers can't take all the tags like the thousand lakes fiasco. 10% max or just make them put in the draw for it, but not have to pay the tag fee if they draw. Archery or muzzy only. Dedicated hunters can't hunt it either as part of their unit. The only general units I can see this being useful for are zion and East canyon/Morgan. Were there others u were thinking of? Neb o has some private land issues too but a really low bd ratio, but still could be useful on certain areas of the unit to balance it out.


flinger, I agree with your comments.
Except for the muzzy or archery only. 
A rifle hunt is doable, like what Colorado is doing.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

What I saw on Thousand Lake a couple of years ago was that most of the hunters were dedicated hunters and while some of them had LL a lot of them didn't, and they will be stuck with the unit for this year. 

If you want a late or middle of November hunt just make it a LE hunt and not let out that many tags. It will be like Colorado's in a few years where it takes 15 years to draw one of them.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Come on Man. The Deer get chased from Summer to who knows when..Lets give em a bit of widow to hang out chase the ladies, and leave em the hell alone!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

oldfudd said:


> Come on Man. The Deer get chased from Summer to who knows when..Lets give em a bit of widow to hang out chase the ladies, and leave em the hell alone!


I think that the whole point of the original post was to target deer herds that Don't get chased during the regular seasons due to large tracts of private property. Maybe spreading the love a little will help "leave the hell alone" some of the herds that soak up the majority of the pressure. Plans that dilute hunter pressure is good for hunters as well as the deer. Say they add 100 well designed hunts and those hunts take a couple thousand folks out of the regular draws to hunt herds that are in good enough shape to take a little pressure. You know, the ones that get slaughtered on the highways.--------SS


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> I think that the whole point of the original post was to target deer herds that Don't get chased during the regular seasons due to large tracts of private property. Maybe spreading the love a little will help "leave the hell alone" some of the herds that soak up the majority of the pressure. Plans that dilute hunter pressure is good for hunters as well as the deer. Say they add 100 well designed hunts and those hunts take a couple thousand folks out of the regular draws to hunt herds that are in good enough shape to take a little pressure. You know, the ones that get slaughtered on the highways.--------SS


Well, it looks someone is starting to get it.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Critter said:


> If you want a late or middle of November hunt just make it a LE hunt and not let out that many tags. It will be like Colorado's in a few years where it takes 15 years to draw one of them.


 I never said anything about a middle to late Nov. hunt.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

MO MONEY! MO MONEY! Bet Mossback, Don Peay And the rest would pay great $$$$ to hunt Private Property.. OH WAIT A SECOND. That only happens on the 2 units they think they already own. Monroe and the Henry Mountain...OOPS!!


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Well, it looks someone is starting to get it.


I get what your saying but I cant go for it.

There are areas that are very low in buck to doe ratios. Id say dangerously low.

The only reason these areas aren't shut down is because of the bucks that are saved and counted in the deer counts. You start killing those bucks and it only hurts the rest of the public deer.

The only way id be fine with it is if tags were cut on the first public hunt and then placed on the second public hunt. But if you give those tags on a later hunt they would also need to be decreased. Late hunts especially ones with effective weapons are very effective at getting stuff killed. Id think your success rates would go up on both hunts causing more harm than good.

To me utah is already a snafu with five months worth of hunting. Give the deer some time to rest especially before winter. I think the deer on the privite side could handle the pressure later but you cant separate the privite from over harassed public deer in my eyes.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

archery is the only reason deer have pressure for five months. Remember that the muzzy and rifle take up less than 2 weeks. The pressure during those two weeks is astronomical and often detrimental to a quality experience. That's why I'm not opposed to exploring ways to relieve the pressure as well as the demand on tags. Remember......the solution to pollution is dilution. There, you got me to say it........guys in Orange vests are pollution! hope that makes your night even if you're in Korea.----------SS


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Archery Pressure on units that are public .PRESSURE? Other than the Wasatch . Don't know where people are archery hunting, Where we hunt most of the pressure is all but gone after the first 4 days,,But hunting these animals on private ground during the Rut.When the Bucks are all screwed up,, WELL<< is just DUMB!! Need to give it a break. Myself being an Archery Hunter Only. We have plenty of time to try and harvest,


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

2nd season later in the year is a terrible idea . You would demolish the last little bit of quality and buck to doe ratios we are hanging on by. There is a reason there aren't hunting seasons during the rut with lots of tags, because of lots of success. Why do you think poachers kill bucks mostly during that time of the year because it's easy, there's no chase involved. Your all looking for a simpler way to hunt. Terrible idea. I would support something like 2, 5 day rifle seasons having the last one where it currently is but pushing a season closer to or into the rut is a death sentence to our deer herd in Utah. It amazes me the same 5 people can't understand the other side of things. You have your opportunity, some people want quality bucks we can have both, but don't expect ideas like this to fly. There's two sides and neither side wants to give any. Understand some people like big bucks and bulls, you don't need to kill them all, others have there views and wants as well. 90-100% success rates on LE elk unit rifle hunts should be enough to tell you an already struggling deer herd can't handle a general season during the rut. I'm sure your all hyped and glad I finally jumped in .


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

There are long archery hunts on the Wasatch, Manti, and Ogden extended areas (there may be more or less than this - I stopped hunting archery 4 years ago). Other than these areas, DIRECT pressure on deer is limited to a month long archery hunt, and a week for both muzzy and rifle. There is no reason that Utah shouldn't/couldn't further spread out hunters - especially with the new unit emphasis. There doesn't have to be more tags given out - just spread them out. August 15 to say November 15 is only three months with ample time within that time frame for the deer to catch a breather.

This absolutely makes sense on units where private property is a major issue, and with the unit structure in place, could be used effectively when and where it is warranted by higher than average B/D ratios.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> There are long archery hunts on the Wasatch, Manti, and Ogden extended areas (there may be more or less than this - I stopped hunting archery 4 years ago). Other than these areas, DIRECT pressure on deer is limited to a month long archery hunt, and a week for both muzzy and rifle. There is no reason that Utah shouldn't/couldn't further spread out hunters - especially with the new unit emphasis. There doesn't have to be more tags given out - just spread them out. August 15 to say November 15 is only three months with ample time within that time frame for the deer to catch a breather.
> 
> This absolutely makes sense on units where private property is a major issue, and with the unit structure in place, could be used effectively when and where it is warranted by higher than average B/D ratios.


I don't think deer or elk or any big game should be hunted, chased, or pursued between November to July. To critical of time through the winter, then fawning. August through October is plenty of harassment for our big game, quite trying to make more pressure on them seem like a good idea during winter.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I think it's funny how guys opposed to this keep talking about August through October. The most I've ever been able to hunt in this state is 9 days with 100,000 other people. Now, hunting muzzy, I have less than a week. I think that a good manager could find a few strategic places for a second season where ratios are above objective. Go back and carefully read the original post. ridge is talking about very limited, specific areas. The benefit is that the tags would be high success and therefore would attract a large number of applicants who would no longer be in the general pool. Similar to what the AI hunt does for the LE pool. The whole point of option 2 is to be able to look more Specifically at individual units and manage accordingly. I personally think that it is the RESPONSIBILITY of wildlife managers to provide as much opportunity as possible within the biological constraints of the herds. If there are areas with over objective ratios or other population issues, I think the surplus should be converted directly into increased opportunity. 

Just because 1-I doesn't see as many big bucks as he thinks he should doesn't mean that there is a crisis. Personally, I saw more bucks and especially big bucks this year than I have ever seen from August until well after the first of the year. I hunted the general muzzy and saw 6-10 bucks each day. Don't listen to Chicken Little.--------SS


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I don't think deer or elk or any big game should be hunted, chased, or pursued between November to July. To critical of time through the winter, then fawning. August through October is plenty of harassment for our big game, quite trying to make more pressure on them seem like a good idea during winter.


Excellent idea! No hunting or shed hunting or scouting or viewing or photographing/video taping for us, or transplanting or collaring or studying or classifying for DWR during that time! I guess we can't stop the cross-county skiers, snowmobilers, snowshoe hikers, winter campers, and hike-in ice fishermen, but if we don't want to be hypocritical, at least we deer/big game hunters need to stay out of the woods and off the sagebrush flats during that time.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

SS you think im only talking about hunting deer? 

People are harassing deer every time there is a hunt going on. Archery hunt, le elk hunt, spike hunt, muzzy hunt, muzzy hunt for elk, late elk hunts, rifle deer hunt. Thats three months of pressure!

Im sorry I dont agree with a shoot in or near the rut. Im sorry I dont agree with going out and killing the rest of the bucks on public land. I think its a terrible idea. 

Maybe ridge can give me an example of an area he is talking about and give reasons why it would work. So far it just doesnt fly with areas im familiar with.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I would like to see it on the Monroe. I would put in for that hunt.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

SW, I get what you're saying about the big picture regarding pressure, it's a good point. What would you consider a rut hunt? When is the latest date that you would consider acceptable to hunt deer?In my experience, the timing of the rut varies, but generally peaks later in November. Are you opposed to the extended archery taking place during the rut? I'm not because opportunity and sustainability are balanced. Personally, I think that other similar situations should be identified and pursued when they make sense. Even if the tag numbers were very small, they could potentially have a big impact on the overall odds in the general drawing.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Soooo........if I have private land, I should be able to hunt in November ?? 
Everybody talks like all the "extra" bucks being on private land.
:mrgreen:


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Ridgetop is on it!

I feel like it shouldn't be limited to just units that have b&d's higher than objective. I feel every unit in the state could handle late buck hunts. Doesn't mean you give out 100 tags. Maybe 2 to 10 tags or more if the unit can handle the mature buck harvest. 

Two rifle tags in mid November or early December wouldn't bother anything going on with the rut. 10 bucks can breed 100 does succesfully then why not? Taking a few bucks that wouldn't normally even been seen and probably die of old age on most units wouldn't be an issue. It's a social issue more than biological!

To keep it a general tag though you would have to adopt a system like colorado. Just for An example. A unit that would give 1940 tags would look something like this.

Archery- 400 tags
Muzzleloader- 400 tags
1st rifle mid October after rifle elk or go to a combined system.- 500 tags( opportunity )
2nd rifle late October- 500 tags ( opportunity )
3rd rifle early November- mid November - 10 to 30 tags ( limited )
4th rifle mid November or late November or early December 2-10 tags ( limited)

Another idea would be to combined the limited entry with general at this point and combined points. Because your offering everything to every type of hunter. So there would be no reason for a split system. If you want to wait for a trophy hunt. then you have the option to do that. If you want a meat hunt. Then you have the option for that as well. The dedicated hunter program would have to be revised and the lifetime holders would have to be revised as well. Like what was said earlier. They put in for the a,m,1, or 2nd hunt they have preference, but for 3 and 4 th they have to draw but maybe the tag fee is waived. Both of those would have to be reviewed.

If hunting during a rut was an issue. You wouldn't have elk hunting at all through September and October. And all the other western states wouldn't conduct rut hunts for deer either. 

An example would be the Dolores triangle. Those deer have to go through 7 deer season between colorado and utah. And carries a high b&d through all of it. With four of those hunts well into late November! 

But I don't have millions to throw at the state like don peay to get my way. 

Ridge, those are my thoughts!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> I think it's funny how guys opposed to this keep talking about August through October. The most I've ever been able to hunt in this state is 9 days with 100,000 other people. Now, hunting muzzy, I have less than a week. I think that a good manager could find a few strategic places for a second season where ratios are above objective. Go back and carefully read the original post. ridge is talking about very limited, specific areas. The benefit is that the tags would be high success and therefore would attract a large number of applicants who would no longer be in the general pool. Similar to what the AI hunt does for the LE pool. The whole point of option 2 is to be able to look more Specifically at individual units and manage accordingly. I personally think that it is the RESPONSIBILITY of wildlife managers to provide as much opportunity as possible within the biological constraints of the herds. If there are areas with over objective ratios or other population issues, I think the surplus should be converted directly into increased opportunity.
> 
> Just because 1-I doesn't see as many big bucks as he thinks he should doesn't mean that there is a crisis. Personally, I saw more bucks and especially big bucks this year than I have ever seen from August until well after the first of the year. I hunted the general muzzy and saw 6-10 bucks each day. Don't listen to Chicken Little.--------SS


I would go along with what your idea is if buck:doe ratios on certain units begin getting way above objective. Which sorry chicken big isn't happening. As far chicken little I am a select few on this forum are too far the other way. Yes I see big bucks but you act like there around every corner and there's too many if there's more than 1 left on the mountain. SS we both have our views and I think the way things are now are about right. I don't want to just see 2 points SS, and you don't want tags cut to see more big bucks because it's not necessary. We both have our rights and I think there's room to have big bucks without changing things to where we can knock them out. And as for not listening to me, compromise is a virtue because with SFW having a powerful hand along with the MDF in our state , we should work with not against before it's completely a rich mans sport.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> SS you think im only talking about hunting deer?
> 
> People are harassing deer every time there is a hunt going on. Archery hunt, le elk hunt, spike hunt, muzzy hunt, muzzy hunt for elk, late elk hunts, rifle deer hunt. Thats three months of pressure!
> 
> ...


Scott, look at the 2012 report.http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/annual_reports/12_bg_report.pdf
pages 41,42
You too #1DEER
units 4,5 and 6 have higher ratios than many of the LE's
There are several units in the mid-20s bucks/100 does
The DWR is already treating unit 20 like a LE. Why not add some late season tags to this one too.
The more people out in the hills driving around and glassing for bucks, the better chance some of these poachers get caught.
I can't help but think that a late season hunt around Cove Mnt. on unit 23 would be awesome.:mrgreen:


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Look more into units 4,5, and 6.

Unit 4 has 15250 deer at winter count which is 127% of objective
Unit 5 has 11200 deer at winter count which is 160% of objective
Unit 6 has 9800 deer at winter count which is 93% of objective

Dwr put these three units into one hunting zone. Putting 6800 permits for the public not including cwmu harvest, there are just to many to go through so I'm just using general season data. For hunters and harvest. Using the buck to doe ratios provided by the dwr. You can get an estimated population of buck deer on the units not including the fawn bucks born in spring 2013. 4,5 and 6 combined has an estimated 12582 bucks.

6800 hunters harvested only 1824 bucks. Leaving 10758 bucks on the units excluding cwmu harvest and fawn bucks. Making 14% of the bucks harvested.

Remember I didn't include cwmu or fawns born in spring of 2013. Kind of stupid they count cwmu's in the general hunt pool and make you use bonus points and not preference points to draw them right?

Now take unit 14. 
9100 deer at winter count which is 44% of objective.
Using the buck to doe ratio provided by the dwr I came up with 1456 bucks on the unit. Excluding cwmu's and fawns. 
They gave out 2500 tags harvesting 879 bucks. Which is 60% of the bucks. Leaving only 577 bucks excluding cwmu's and fawns.. I think you can still run late season hunts on this unit if you spread the tags out. Making both trophy and meat hunter opurtunity.

If unit 14 was at objective which is 20500 deer. With the current buck to doe ratio. that would put 3280 bucks in the field in this unit. Which is a 225% increase in buck deer.

There's your oppurtunity for hunters of all kind. Cutting tags is the quick fix sort of speak in buck management. It will raise the buck number to a certain extent. More importantly, Finding a way to increase overall population and maitaining those numbers would provide more oppurtunity overall and running late seasons hunts at that point wouldn't be an issue at all. 

The other question that came to mind running these numbers is that in unit 14. After taking that many bucks out. That would leave them with a ratio of 7:100. Where are the biologists counting the extra 9 bucks to 100 does at? Private property? I know in the kamas unit. The forest service land runs closer to 10:100 while the private portion of the unit runs 32:100. They put out 3200 buck tags and roughly + or - 100 tag holders get access to the private where most the bucks live. That would put 3100 tags on the rest of public land hunting roughly 10:100 ratio. But total unit ratio is 21:100 making it over objective for the unit. 

Another observation:
Take 3100 hunters over 120,604 public acres: 38.9 acres per hunter
Take 1265 bucks over 120,604+44,824(private)=165,428 total acres: 130.7 acres per buck. That's a lot of ground that a buck as over the hunter. I don't call that oppurtunity! 

If late buck hunts will give me a better oppurtunity at a buck. Im in favor! The division doesn't care how much pressure we put on bucks any other time. Why not give some rut hunt oppurtunities!I know these numbers don't work in every unit. But, I'd bet you'll find similarities in most! 

The next question I have is why does the division put 6800 bucks tags out for 12582 bucks in 4,5,6 where in unit 14 they put 2500 tags out for 1456 bucks! Kind of backwards to me just looking at numbers. It's like that in. Most general units. 

I know that there's more to the picture than just these numbers. But I find it interesting none the less.... I pulled all the data from the 2012 big game report and the deer management plan and 2013 harvest report.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

A late hunt on 4,5,6 would be awesome. My thoughts anyway....


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Elkaholic makes some interesting observations. My whole point is to do exactly what he has done. Look for opportunity where it is available. Should be a no brainer. The sky is falling in some areas, the sky is not falling in others. Hence the need for management. Management is always hindered by absolutes like "no hunting in November". Some folks should give up hunting and start golfing. That would also help the situation.------SS


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## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

Private land only tags before November would probably have the same effect on the ratios. Maybe one eye would like that better.


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