# Additional Anterless Tags



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The additional anterless tags that they decided to let out during the WB meeting go on sale 9/6 at 8 am.

The list is on the DOW's web site:

https://wildlife.utah.gov/remaining-permits.html

There are also more bison tags so if you put in for the Henry Mountain hunts all is not lost.......yet. There will be some either sex but mostly cow tags.


----------



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Anyone know if we will we lose points if we manage to buy one of these?

If not, I'll do some digging tonight when I get home from work.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If you buy one OTC you will *NOT* loose your points, that was brought up in the meeting.


----------



## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Anyone know the dates of the hunts?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Follow the link and you will see.


----------



## elkantlers (Feb 27, 2014)

This ought to turn into a cluster about 08:01 on 9/6


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I think I'll get the tent and chairs and set up at Wal Mart to be the first in line. LOL


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that I would find some out of the way store that sells licenses that very few people go to and camp out there. 

Any bets if the system crashes on the 6th?


----------



## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Critter said:


> I think that I would find some out of the way store that sells licenses that very few people go to and camp out there.
> 
> Any bets if the system crashes on the 6th?


I can see it playing out. Try login "server full, try again in a few minutes" get in finally an hour later and click sw desert "sold out" doh!!

Click fillmore pahvant "sold out" doh!

Click manti west........................................................................... "this site is experiencing unusually high traffic, please exit or refresh" then the crash.

SON OF A #@%&#!!!

Try login again "server full, try again in a few minutes" and repeat above 20 times over.

Next internet use will be logging into UWN and talking about the **** show 6 hours later.

I wont be able to experience it unfortunately because my wife and daughter already have cow tags so I'm already busy. Should be fun for those that play though...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## countrydave801 (Jul 10, 2017)

3arabians said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> > I think that I would find some out of the way store that sells licenses that very few people go to and camp out there.
> ...


 when lefter over GS tags go on sell for deer, or what is left of LE, I bet more traffic gets hit on the servers and they stay up just fine. Luckily I'll be in front of a computer at that time and will hopefully be one of the first guys in.


----------



## trackerputnam (Dec 21, 2014)

Shhhh! Will you all be quiet so no one knows about this! Since I am in the land of Microsoft, maybe I will have a hand up on the speed issue.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm not even going to try and get a tag. Why wouldn't they go back to the UNSUCCESFULL pool and offer the tags to those that applied for the UNITS ?? Just don't understand the way Utah does crap.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> I'm not even going to try and get a tag. Why wouldn't they go back to the UNSUCCESFULL pool and offer the tags to those that applied for the UNITS ?? Just don't understand the way Utah does crap.


The DWR addressed this at the meeting. One of the RAC chairs suggested the same thing. With them having to go through the bison pool and fill 109 tags, it is impossible for them to do the same with almost 800 cow elk and doe pronghorn tags in the short time they have to do it. That takes a considerable amount of manpower, and they just don't have it.

Plus, this is not an additional hunting opportunity, per se. This is an emergency, last minute situation where they need more animals killed to hopefully save the overall herds from the drought. So going only to those that applied for the hunt back at the beginning of the year doesn't make sense anyway.


----------



## Rdog (May 17, 2018)

Instead of trying to reduce the herd on manti why not just force some of the thousands of sheep off the mountain? Money money money.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The DOW can't do anything about the sheep, that is the Forest Service responsibility. The DOW manages the wildlife.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Critter said:


> The DOW can't do anything about the sheep, that is the Forest Service responsibility. The DOW manages the wildlife.


I could manage the sheep easy! A few hundred rounds of 6.5 and a rest...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Cost would be minimal, and the problem solved. Coyotes, Bear, and Lion could munch on them and leave the Deer alone.:shock::shock::mrgreen:


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Getting one of these is gonna be such a b***


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Critter said:


> The DOW can't do anything about the sheep, that is the Forest Service responsibility. The DOW manages the wildlife.


When is the Forest Service going to kick these moochers off the mountains? That would go a long way to making better habitat for the wildlife.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Come up with a few million dollars and buy up all the grazing permits as they come on the market. Then you won't have to worry about sheep or cattle on the Forest Service land or BLM land. 

Really quite simple.


----------



## guner (Sep 25, 2007)

Very uninformed comment about “Moochers” on the mountain. They are ranchers and make a living like anyone else. Don’t worry a majority of them are getting up in years and although they are carrying on generations of family tradition, majority of younger family aren’t interested in carrying on and so gradually like everything else it will fade away. But when someone wants to climb on their high horse and start making comments like that it pisses me off.Am I a rancher? no, but my family herd sheep and they work hard. So unless your ready to tear your house down “ that’s probably built on winter range” and live in a tent, then shut the hole that makes the words! Do I like sheep when I hunt ? No, but making comments like that are as intelligent as being against hunting, then calling complaining that Deer are eating your flowers.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> Come up with a few million dollars and buy up all the grazing permits as they come on the market. Then you won't have to worry about sheep or cattle on the Forest Service land or BLM land.
> 
> Really quite simple.


Already paying millions so they have the privledge to do so.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

guner said:


> Very uninformed comment about "Moochers" on the mountain. They are ranchers and make a living like anyone else. Don't worry a majority of them are getting up in years and although they are carrying on generations of family tradition, majority of younger family aren't interested in carrying on and so gradually like everything else it will fade away. But when someone wants to climb on their high horse and start making comments like that it pisses me off.Am I a rancher? no, but my family herd sheep and they work hard. So unless your ready to tear your house down " that's probably built on winter range" and live in a tent, then shut the hole that makes the words! Do I like sheep when I hunt ? No, but making comments like that are as intelligent as being against hunting, then calling complaining that Deer are eating your flowers.


When they stop complaining maybe we will. But that'll never happen, it's what they're best at.


----------



## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

guner said:


> Very uninformed comment about "Moochers" on the mountain. They are ranchers and make a living like anyone else. Don't worry a majority of them are getting up in years and although they are carrying on generations of family tradition, majority of younger family aren't interested in carrying on and so gradually like everything else it will fade away. But when someone wants to climb on their high horse and start making comments like that it pisses me off.Am I a rancher? no, but my family herd sheep and they work hard. So unless your ready to tear your house down " that's probably built on winter range" and live in a tent, then shut the hole that makes the words! Do I like sheep when I hunt ? No, but making comments like that are as intelligent as being against hunting, then calling complaining that Deer are eating your flowers.


To be honest I think it is sad that so many are giving up their family legacy of ranching(speaking in general terms not about sheep in particular), far too many are selling off their land to developers and giving up a living that this country needs more than ever. Sorry for getting off topic, but I just wish we had more farms and ranches.


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

The self righteous hunters on this forum that think people should give up their lively hood that they have been doing for generations makes me sick. The ranchers should all just quit so they don't continue to f-up your fall hobby right? I guess you dumb *#@$ fall in line with those that think meat comes from a grocery store


----------



## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

guner said:


> Very uninformed comment about "Moochers" on the mountain. They are ranchers and make a living like anyone else. Don't worry a majority of them are getting up in years and although they are carrying on generations of family tradition, majority of younger family aren't interested in carrying on and so gradually like everything else it will fade away. But when someone wants to climb on their high horse and start making comments like that it pisses me off.Am I a rancher? no, but my family herd sheep and they work hard. So unless your ready to tear your house down " that's probably built on winter range" and live in a tent, then shut the hole that makes the words! Do I like sheep when I hunt ? No, but making comments like that are as intelligent as being against hunting, then calling complaining that Deer are eating your flowers.


I absolutely 110% am anti cattlemen and grazing on public lands! It's absolutely disgusting what they think is ok to do to our public resources, including our wildlife. Who TF are they to tell us how many naturally occurring animals we are allowed to have on our landscapes. Cattlemen are nothing more than a bunch of free loaders that feel way more entitled to public lands for their financial benefits than anyone else who uses that land as well. Maybe if they had a little more respect for the animals and people who they share these lands with, they might have a little more people who are in favor of their livelihood, but as it stands now, I know many many people, hunters and anti hunters who want nothing more than to see them go away.

On a side note, their cattle are the biggest destructive thing we have in the mountains currently. I've never seen an ATV, truck, horse, dirtbike, etc... cause the kind of erosion, destruction to habitat and trails/roads that just a few cattle can cause in just a short amount of time. Absolutely disgusting that we allow this to go on. I cannot wait for the day if/when, cattle are banned from grazing on our public lands. The negative impacts they have far out weighs the positives from grazing our land we all share


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

plottrunner said:


> The self righteous hunters on this forum that think people should give up their lively hood that they have been doing for generations makes me sick. The ranchers should all just quit so they don't continue to f-up your fall hobby right? I guess you dumb *#@$ fall in line with those that think meat comes from a grocery store


I support it, I don't support their entitled attitude or the constant attacks and complaints to suppress wildlife numbers. If thy want us as enemies, maybe they should have us as enemies. I raise cattle myself and will likely soon be giving it up myself. I support the lifestyle, but the attitudes of these good ol boys and their entitlement when they're really sucking off the taxpayers dime, hurting habitat and water sources in many cases, overgrazing, and constant push to depress wildlife is no way to make friends. I support the lifestyle, I don't support the individuals in many cases who are welfare crybabies who think they are the most important use out there. The hypocrisy many of them hold is quite funny as well. I want to see it continue, but I want to see their attitudes change and become more willing to share and compromise than think they're entitled to the land more than anyone else. I've got no problem sharing it with them, but we're gonna share, not have you smacking the back of my head every time I turn around when we are paying a pretty huge portion of range improvement.

Bighorn sheep can barely exist because of the entitlement. I've watched water holes that hold water all summer and are dry within a week of cattle showing up this year all over the place. It matters in a dry year like this. I went hunting tonight and they can more than their **** fair share. There were cattle EVERYWHERE. Dry water holes, dusty ate down to nothing trampled flats, no grass, dry as hell, **** everywhere. I'll share the place with them, but they get their fair share, but stop bitching and suppressing wildlife numbers. I'd rather the assholes that we have now doing it go the way of the dodo, not the lifestyle, but the individuals and attitudes they have absolutely. Disappear.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

sheepassassin said:


> I absolutely 110% am anti cattlemen and grazing on public lands! It's absolutely disgusting what they think is ok to do to our public resources, including our wildlife. Who TF are they to tell us how many naturally occurring animals we are allowed to have on our landscapes. Cattlemen are nothing more than a bunch of free loaders that feel way more entitled to public lands for their financial benefits than anyone else who uses that land as well. Maybe if they had a little more respect for the animals and people who they share these lands with, they might have a little more people who are in favor of their livelihood, but as it stands now, I know many many people, hunters and anti hunters who want nothing more than to see them go away.
> 
> On a side note, their cattle are the biggest destructive thing we have in the mountains currently. I've never seen an ATV, truck, horse, dirtbike, etc... cause the kind of erosion, destruction to habitat and trails/roads that just a few cattle can cause in just a short amount of time. Absolutely disgusting that we allow this to go on. I cannot wait for the day if/when, cattle are banned from grazing on our public lands. The negative impacts they have far out weighs the positives from grazing our land we all share


Yep, I watched water sources deer and elk were using all summer, literally for months and they looked untouched. Within a week of cattle coming in, they were dried up and no more water for wildlife. Sorry, with these dudes attitudes, I'm done ignoring the negative affects their public land grazing has, because there's plenty of negatives. With the attitudes they show at wildlife board meetings, they wanted enemies and they're creating them.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

I'm just tired of stepping in, or sitting in, sheep **** where ever I go. I try really hard to get away from them, and I can't. Every square mile of the land where good elk and deer habitat lays in the forests is either currently covered with sheep, or was covered in sheep a few days ago. Where I saw Elk herds two weeks ago, I now here nothing but thousands of sheep.

Every deer I have seen this year, looks like they've been wanting for food. I can only guess because sheep have been eating it most of it up. 

To be clear, people running their cattle or sheep up in the forest doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when i see NOTHING BUT those **** sheep EVERYWHERE I go, no matter how hard I try to avoid them, but can't. It's like an invasion of an invasive species that you can't avoid. Sheep are like the cheatgrass of the ruminant world. They have quite literally taken over everything, and it would explain some emaciated deer I've seen. CWD can't be THAT common.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Lone_Hunter said:


> I'm just tired of stepping in, or sitting in, sheep **** where ever I go. I try really hard to get away from them, and I can't. Every square mile of the land where good elk and deer habitat lays in the forests is either currently covered with sheep, or was covered in sheep a few days ago. Where I saw Elk herds two weeks ago, I now here nothing but thousands of sheep.
> 
> Every deer I have seen this year, looks like they've been wanting for food. I can only guess because sheep have been eating it most of it up.
> 
> To be clear, people running their cattle or sheep up in the forest doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when i see NOTHING BUT those **** sheep EVERYWHERE I go, no matter how hard I try to avoid them, but can't. It's like an invasion of an invasive species that you can't avoid. Sheep are like the cheatgrass of the ruminant world. They have quite literally taken over everything, and it would explain some emaciated deer I've seen. CWD can't be THAT common.


On a year like this I cannot believe how long and far they've allowed grazing. Things are in bad shape and way overused this year.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The root cause of grazing issues on forest Service land?
The FS is ran by the department of agriculture........literally.


----------



## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Maybe buy them out at the original purchase price of a couple hundred


Critter said:


> Come up with a few million dollars and buy up all the grazing permits as they come on the market. Then you won't have to worry about sheep or cattle on the Forest Service land or BLM land.
> 
> Really quite simple.


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

But you will have to buy them all out. Not just one allotment but all of them. A couple hundred dollars won't work for that.

I can just see it then when beef and wool prices go through the roof when the ranchers have to start feeding them at the feed lot or private land.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> But you will have to buy them all out. Not just one allotment but all of them. A couple hundred dollars won't work for that.
> 
> I can just see it then when beef and wool prices go through the roof when the ranchers have to start feeding them at the feed lot or private land.


Over 80% of the beef consumed in this country is raised/controlled by 4 major corporations, the majority of which are raised in feedlots and essentially raised as conveyer belt slaughter house chains.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

plottrunner said:


> The self righteous hunters on this forum that think people should give up their lively hood that they have been doing for generations makes me sick. The ranchers should all just quit so they don't continue to f-up your fall hobby right? I guess you dumb *#@$ fall in line with those that think meat comes from a grocery store


Same can be said about extraction industries, public lands, and monuments...


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Over 80% of the beef consumed in this country is raised/controlled by 4 major corporations, the majority of which are raised in feedlots and essentially raised as conveyer belt slaughter house chains.


There is a awful lot of beef sold at the auctions that is raised on the range that goes mostly to folks that buy their beef in bulk instead of those nice pretty plastic wrapped packages at the grocery store.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> There is a awful lot of beef sold at the auctions that is raised on the range that goes mostly to folks that buy their beef in bulk instead of those nice pretty plastic wrapped packages at the grocery store.


It isn't up for debate. 80% of the beef in this country is raised and sold by 4 corporations, the most of which are raised in feedlots. 97% of all cattle spend time in feedlots. Feedlots are actually the most common/efficient way beef is raised and how it is kept cheap. You can raise far more beef in a 100
acre food lot and feed them higher quality food compared to how much acreage and open space it would take to sustain the same amount of beef on rangeland especially the low quality rangeland like Utah. It may seem like a lot to you, but in the actual picture it is not, let alone the beef and sheep that use public lands being an even smaller percentage, by a long shot. I support the activity, but it's a lie to say beef prices would drastically increase even if you removed every single livestock using public lands tomorrow. Now the food lot way of raising these animals has its many negatives, but it is the way the vast majority of beef finds its way to Americans dinner plates.

All you really have to do is go look at the many dairys in our state. The amount of rangeland/pasture it would take to raise them as compared to feeding them high quality hay/grain in small feedlots would be astronomically more and more expensive.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

So, uh, who is applying for the additional tags?

Since this thread is off on this hellacious tangent, a couple of points.

1. Heaven knows I have criticized the Farm Bureau and organized AG for certain political stands they have taken, (stream access) and the views of folks like the Wayne county boyz in the recent Wildlife board meeting are ridiculous, but I have to agree with Plottrunner that some of the rhetoric on here by hunters is out of line. Painting most or all public lands grazers as destroyers of the rangeland and our animals is over the top. The truth is that the grazing of both sheep and cattle has gone on for generations and the land hasn't been annihilated by it, so why would it be now. Yes, there are some bad apples but most realize that the sustainability of their *business* requires decent grazing land, so only an idiot would intentionally despoil the mountain. Likewise, hunting and grazing have peacefully coexisted for generations. Yes, there will be disagreements about allocation of resources/AUMs but by and large if most people keep a level head and intelligently approach the issue, the ridiculous or extreme positions will be tossed out, as what happened in the last WB meeting.

I said this before, but there are multiple players in the decision making process regarding our game. Hunters may at some point *need* the help of AG on an issue. How likely is that to be if hunters have a scorched earth attitude towards them like what is read here.

2. There is a lot of ignorance about how ranching works being pontificated here. I really don't feel like getting too deeply into it, but in short, a range cattle operation makes their money by selling off their young of year cattle, minus replacement heifers, plus some older cows, to these feedlots, where they are "finished" and then slaughtered to find their way to the Smiths or Winco near you.


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Over 80% of the beef consumed in this country is raised/controlled by 4 major corporations, the majority of which are raised in feedlots and essentially raised as conveyer belt slaughter house chains.


Cite your source please otherwise I call bull*#@$ no pun intended.



> Total U.S. beef consumption last year was 24.1 billion pounds. In 2012, the average American consumed 71.2 pounds of red meat (beef, veal, pork, and lamb) and 54.1 pounds of poultry (chicken and turkey), according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Oct 26, 2015


Your'e telling me 4 companies in the us raised 80% of 24.1 billion pounds of beef in one year? That comes to just under 20 billion pounds or 5 billion pounds of consumable beef (Not hoof weight) per company. Once again I say Bull&%$#... The american cattleman produced that beef and unless you want to pay $25.00 a lb for hamburger so you can enjoy you're hobby, I would rethink your stance...


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Here is a source. But the info has been mis-represented by some on this thread. There is a difference between cattle (live animal) and beef (meat).

www.hcn.org/issues/43.5/cattlemen-s...-economic-squeezes/the-big-four-meatpackers-1

Here is an interesting link- http://www.beefusa.org/beefindustrystatistics.aspx

Sorry 1I, but your last few posts on the topic were painfully uneducated. It is up for debate when you say "raised". Because you are wrong.

The truth is those 4 corporations produce, ie "Slaughter", 80% of the beef (meat) produced. They do not produce the cattle. For example, feeder calves (400-700lbs weaned) are sold at auction. They are then most likely placed on pasture (public or private) or maybe into feedlots until they are old enough (approx 14-20 months) to go into a feedlot where they are finished on high quality/fattening feed. There are many cow/calf operations. There are many free range feeder operations. And finally, most beef is "finished" in a feedlot. I can not imagine a worse environment or a more costly way than to birth and raise cattle in a feedlot.

Seriously, some of the comments on this site the past few days reminds me of many of the comments during the cougar meeting the other day-- educated people sounding uneducated because hate and emotion have clouded the facts......

OH- and I think cattle and sheep numbers on range lands (public and private) should be reduced in drought conditions. And that the game animals should come first. And that most ranchers are good people. And that most hunters are good people.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Catherder said:


> So, uh, who is applying for the additional tags?
> 
> Since this thread is off on this hellacious tangent, a couple of points.
> 
> ...


I know most of the people personally who hold grazing permits on Monroe and surrounding areas. Their attitude is never "voluntary reduction" during drought. They leave their livestock on the mountain until the forest service forces them off. Basically the conversation I had with someone I know pretty well who has permits on the Cove side went like this. "There's no water and not much feed left but we aren't taking them off until the Forest service starts bothering us about them." Maybe in other places that is not the attitude but I've yet to see anyone around this area take "voluntary reductions" during drought like they claim at board meetings. If their wasn't a forest service they'd never take them off. And of course the elk that are far outnumbered by the cattle and sheep are the real problem to them. Even when I've watched elk go months at water holes and in flats that cattle degrade in a weeks time.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Packout said:


> Here is a source. But the info has been mis-represented by some on this thread. There is a difference between cattle (live animal) and beef (meat).
> 
> www.hcn.org/issues/43.5/cattlemen-s...-economic-squeezes/the-big-four-meatpackers-1
> 
> ...


Nearly every dairy cow in the country is raised in a feed lot it's whole life. The amount of land you need to own/lease to raise hay or grain on is far less than the amount of pasture/range land you'd need to raise that same amount of beef. It is a much worse living condition, but it is efficient when you know what you're doing. Clean/animal friendly? No. I feed my animals much more than they eat off pasture....in a feed lot. Again, Utah's rangeland and public rangeland is such a tiny minority of what raises beef in this country it is barely a sliver in that pie. As someone said before, when the American tax payer is paying $2 for every $1 you pay to graze public land and you're degrading the resources and depressing wildlife numbers, we'd just like you to be a bit more appreciative of the privledge you have as a public land grazer. It gets real old having cattle and sheep everywhere we go, suppressing deer and elk numbers, drying up water holes, ****ting everywhere, and overgrazing, and then blaming the elk and pronghorn for every problem that exists in the world. These guys should be told to pound sand.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I actually very much support and enjoy the lifestyle is the sad part. These guys are so entitled though. And please stop making it sound like it’s a minority, where I am it’s certainly the majority who share the opinion, they have more right to the land than anyone else, f*** the elk and pronghorn, and all that matters is them. It’s not the minority, not even close.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

plottrunner said:


> Cite your source please otherwise I call bull*#@$ no pun intended.
> 
> Your'e telling me 4 companies in the us raised 80% of 24.1 billion pounds of beef in one year? That comes to just under 20 billion pounds or 5 billion pounds of consumable beef (Not hoof weight) per company. Once again I say Bull&%$#... The american cattleman produced that beef and unless you want to pay $25.00 a lb for hamburger so you can enjoy you're hobby, I would rethink your stance...


No I won't rethink my stance. It's also a very enjoyable way of life. My Grandpa, dad, and I have all raised cattle. (And obviously prior to that too). Is it hard? Somewhat, but not like you've painted it. Strained financially at Tim's if it's all I did? Yes. But the lifestyle is not harder than any other blue collar job I've had, and is actually more enjoyable and rewarding than many. Like I said, I support the lifestyle, just not many of the entitled, welfare, individuals who do it. As for $25....lol. No, the feds will continue to throw out grants and free money for the welfare state to ensure it's never priced at that. It's pretty laughable when these guys act like people on food stamps are pathetic, yet all the free money that pours in their way from the feds and taxpayers they ignore. Love the lifestyle, the people behind the lifestyle are less than appealing or reasonable.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Catherder said:


> So, uh, who is applying for the additional tags?


Not I. The aminal population will be in check anyway if does and cows are dry because of drought and poor diet.

Just because it's rut season doesn't mean they'll drop a fawn or calf come spring. Natural survival may not allow it.

Cows are hunted pretty hard as it is, I would hate to add to it right now...


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

Thank you packout for your post and it was the exact thing I was calling out 1I for. 4 companies finish the beef after they buy it from cow/calf operations. According to the National Cattlemans Beef Associaiton, the following is true about where the beef in this nation comes from;
Average age of a principle beef cattle rancher is 58.32 
913,246 total cattle & calf operations. Of these:
727,906 are beef farms and ranches. Of these:
91% are family-owned or individually-operated
26,586 are engaged in cattle feedlot production. Of these:
80% are family owned or individually operated
64,098 are milk cow operations

My family has been raising beef since 1891 and I'm not sure of where this welfare OneI speaks of comes from. We run 100 pair on our own mountain property with no grazing on public ground during the summer. In the fall, we bring our herd off the mountain and we contract our calves at 600lbs. They are sold within a week or two of coming off the mountain. Our heifers are then turned loose on our winter range that is augmented with blm leases on the desert in which we pay an AUM on. Our heifers begin to calve at the end of march and at that time, the cows are on our range as well as our blm leases. In June, they are trucked to the mountain and the process continues year after year. On a good year we pay all expenses and put a little money in the bank, on a usual year, we break even or lose a little but the trade off is it pays the taxes, the AUM's and I have an awesome place to hunt deer and spend time with my family. Not getting rich, not getting subsidized, and contributing beef to the 25 billion pounds of US beef production. Where is the welfare you speak of?


----------



## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

What's the cost to run on the amu allotment? Would you let me run cattle on your private summer range for the same price? It is what it is but public land isn't gaining anything from all the cattle and sheep and nobody is paying thier "fair" share to do it. 
The program itself needs an overhaul where the resource gets at least gets an equal contribution from the user not a winner take all situation.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

plottrunner said:


> Thank you packout for your post and it was the exact thing I was calling out 1I for. 4 companies finish the beef after they buy it from cow/calf operations. According to the National Cattlemans Beef Associaiton, the following is true about where the beef in this nation comes from;
> Average age of a principle beef cattle rancher is 58.32
> 913,246 total cattle & calf operations. Of these:
> 727,906 are beef farms and ranches. Of these:
> ...


Yes you are. Lol. Of course you're welfaring cattle on public land and acting like you aren't. My cattle are raised 100% on private ground, yes, yes you are welfaring. You're running a private business at a subsidized price sucking off of all the taxpayer and other users dimes.....and yes....yes the wild lands would be much better if your livestock was not there.....so would the water sources and food sources. Got some private land? I'd gladly pay $1.87 a head and take care of it for you......yeah you're subsidized.


----------



## nk1nk (Nov 15, 2011)

...


----------



## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

Interestingly enough, the only water source for miles in the area I hunt are a couple of troughs BUILT AND MAINTAINED BY A RANCHER that the cows and elk share just fine, the same rancher cuts back downed trees and keeps the trail usable for hunters. And in years past when I didn't harvest an elk we bought free range beef from a private rancher. So while some of you may have differing opinions from my own, I like having a rancher using the area I hunt. I know not all ranchers are as responsible, but most are.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

N/A


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

Actually it's only $1.41 per AUM for 2018 (Wish I could see the aneurysm this just caused 1I LOL) Since it's a waste of time I won't share with you how many water sources we have developed out of our pocket that the antelope and other critters enjoy or how many miles of fence we have put in and cattle guards we have paid for since people are too lazy to close gates all so we can welfare our cows on #1Deer 1-I's precious sage brush waste land. Come to think of #1deer 1I, why do you even give a ****? In the 10+ years I have been on these forums including the old DWR forum that gave you your silly ass name, I have yet to ever read a hunting report from you or see a picture. The only story you have ever shared was about your magical one eyed buck that had relations with your chevy truck. You come on here and ask questions about where to hunt elk on zion (I stuck up for you on that) how to shoot a swan and a bunch of others but I don't seem to recall you ever sharing a hunting story or report? Which government entity do you work for? BLM, USDA, USFWS, DWR, USFS or gay kitty lovers of America? All you do is troll for info and post stupid **** about the big bad rancher and the big bad politicians that are stealing your public ground. You hide behind a user name and make sure know one knows who you are. Are you undercover? Or do you need to show us on the dolly where the bad cattle rancher touched you?


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

plottrunner said:


> Actually it's only $1.41 per AUM for 2018 (Wish I could see the aneurysm this just caused 1I LOL) Since it's a waste of time I won't share with you how many water sources we have developed out of our pocket that the antelope and other critters enjoy or how many miles of fence we have put in and cattle guards we have paid for since people are too lazy to close gates all so we can welfare our cows on #1Deer 1-I's precious sage brush waste land. Come to think of #1deer 1I, why do you even give a ****? In the 10+ years I have been on these forums including the old DWR forum that gave you your silly ass name, I have yet to ever read a hunting report from you or see a picture. The only story you have ever shared was about your magical one eyed buck that had relations with your chevy truck. You come on here and ask questions about where to hunt elk on zion (I stuck up for you on that) how to shoot a swan and a bunch of others but I don't seem to recall you ever sharing a hunting story or report? Which government entity do you work for? BLM, USDA, USFWS, DWR, USFS or gay kitty lovers of America? All you do is troll for info and post stupid **** about the big bad rancher and the big bad politicians that are stealing your public ground. You hide behind a user name and make sure know one knows who you are. Are you undercover? Or do you need to show us on the dolly where the bad cattle rancher touched you?


I'll ignore most of your ridiculous post lol, you as a fellow internet forum poster are not entitled to any part of my personal life I don't care to share with you, and me yours either.

As for the water holes you've developed. Yeah okay.....and as I've stated they wouldn't be needed if livestock weren't drying up and trashing the natural ones that already exist. You run a private business on the back of taxpayers and other public land users and also the wildlife. Sorry if the truth hurts your feelings. The wildlife do not need the public land grazer so don't pretend like you're doing them any favors, you're certainly a burden to them. The fact you refer to it as a sagebrush wasteland, shows just how much you value it. I could start cutting deeper, but I'll leave it at that.

And for the 100th time, I support the activity, just not individuals behind it that act like they are Gods gift to public land and their word and wants should be as good as Gods. Entitlement. Entitlement. Entitlements. That is their attitude and views.


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

Hey genius, there are no natural water holes. Do you know where Lund Utah is? Our ground that we own is between it and Parowan Gap and the BLM grazing pieces we use border the ground we own. No natural springs, no above ground waters sources just miles of sage brush with an occasional juniper tree. The water sources we have put in are with the water rights we own so no welfare there. I call bull**** on the fact that you claim to be in the cattle business, your'e too ignorant to know anything about the industry.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

plottrunner said:


> Hey genius, there are no natural water holes. Do you know where Lund Utah is? Our ground that we own is between it and Parowan Gap and the BLM grazing pieces we use border the ground we own. No natural springs, no above ground waters sources just miles of sage brush with an occasional juniper tree. The water sources we have put in are with the water rights we own so no welfare there. I call bull**** on the fact that you claim to be in the cattle business, your'e too ignorant to know anything about the industry.


I mean you can call BS, I just raise my cattle 100% on private land. How oh ever did the wildlife survive before you showed up. How oh ever could they have survived without the cattle man lol.

Let me ask you this, do you feel the fee you pay should be higher to better fund projects/range improvements/ and reimburse taxpayers? Do you not feel the $1.41 per AUM is not ridiculously low?


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

One eye, are you really that naive in Utah history? Not everywhere is in the Sevier drainage you call home. Iron county was a desert waste land before Mormon pioneers developed water sources. Coal Creek that flows out of Cedar canyon is so sediment filled, it is unusable for potable water. The Piute Indians that lived here survived on rabbits, rodents and insects. There were no deer herds or elk or anything else for that matter because wolves and coyotes decimated their populations. Read the Domínguez–Escalante account of what they encountered when they passed through Southern Utah. In fact their trail goes right through our desert property. Is $1.41 to low per AUM? Do you even know what an AUM is for? The range belongs to the public so they can't charge rent on it but they are supposed to use the AUM money to develop water, build fence and maintain roads. That money is supposed to be used to manage the land. This is what Cliven Bundy's bitch is all about. The BLM instead uses the money to build it's own military with clowns like Dan Love in chare. As far as managing the land, do you think they do any of that? Hell the southern region blm crew out of the Cedar City office doesn't even have a road crew anymore or any equipment. Your'e entire complaint is based off your own biased ignorant opinion to protect your one month a year hobby (if thats really the case since I have not seen one hunting report from you in over 10 years).


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

plottrunner said:


> One eye, are you really that naive in Utah history? Not everywhere is in the Sevier drainage you call home. Iron county was a desert waste land before Mormon pioneers developed water sources. Coal Creek that flows out of Cedar canyon is so sediment filled, it is unusable for potable water. The Piute Indians that lived here survived on rabbits, rodents and insects. There were no deer herds or elk or anything else for that matter because wolves and coyotes decimated their populations. Read the Domínguez-Escalante account of what they encountered when they passed through Southern Utah. In fact their trail goes right through our desert property. Is $1.41 to low per AUM? Do you even know what an AUM is for? The range belongs to the public so they can't charge rent on it but they are supposed to use the AUM money to develop water, build fence and maintain roads. That money is supposed to be used to manage the land. This is what Cliven Bundy's bitch is all about. The BLM instead uses the money to build it's own military with clowns like Dan Love in chare. As far as managing the land, do you think they do any of that? Hell the southern region blm crew out of the Cedar City office doesn't even have a road crew anymore or any equipment. Your'e entire complaint is based off your own biased ignorant opinion to protect your one month a year hobby (if thats really the case since I have not seen one hunting report from you in over 10 years).


Thank you for this rant, we've discussed the fact you're a Bundy sympathizer before. You show you share the same conspiracy BS as he and many others like yourself do. You've even tried to paint conspiracy here about me lol, when you know nothing about me. I know the people I'm speaking on personally. You are making your own painted up assumptions. Also, not a one month a year hobby. Hunting is a part of my life year round, it's a lifestyle, not a hobby. Maybe it's a hobby to you, but the well being of public lands and wildlife populations and ensuring their continued well being is very much important to me year round and beyond my personal uses of them. Hunting, wildlife, and public lands are very important to me, well beyond one month a year.


----------



## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Well this discussion reached it's usefulness a bunch of posts a while ago. Sorry that it went down this ugly side tangent.









Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

1I - ranchers in and around Monroe are not indiactive of all public land ranchers. You act as if they are and should know better. The whole "welfare rancher" argument is tired and rather silly and petty, and going around slapping that label on folks does nothing to futher your arguments. If you don't like the system, change it. If you're going to change it, don't piss off your audience beforehand.


----------



## Decoycarver24 (Aug 17, 2018)

Since when did it become cool and ok to attack people who grow our food.... Sound like a bunch of southern Californians on this thread....


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Decoycarver24 said:


> Since when did it become cool and ok to attack people who grow our food.... Sound like a bunch of southern Californians on this thread....


So are you suggesting that if someone "grows our food," that they get amnesty in all other actions and activities? This post acts like these folks are doing us all a service. No, they are running a business, and when I run out of elk meat, I become a paying customer to their business. I'm not given beef for free, or even a subsidized amount. I pay full price, just like most people do.

This thread has gone so far off the rails, but I will say, I can understand why some are frustrated. As a hunter, I don't know how anyone could watch the comments made by ranchers at this last board meeting and not feel as if you needed to run your head through a brick wall. And there are some ranchers that would completely eradicate the game we love to chase if they could get away with it. Not all ranching operations are that way, but there are some. So, when they act like that, or intentionally work to the detriment of our Wild game, then yes, they deserve criticism and deserve to be attacked back. I don't care what they grow, they don't get a pass on taking anti-hunting positions anymore than those southern Californians you seen to not be fond of.

PS- I'm hoping to help a rancher by killing a cow with these extra tags that are available. But then that means another year of no buying beef. Catch 22, I guess.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> 1I - ranchers in and around Monroe are not indiactive of all public land ranchers. You act as if they are and should know better. The whole "welfare rancher" argument is tired and rather silly and petty, and going around slapping that label on folks does nothing to futher your arguments. If you don't like the system, change it. If you're going to change it, don't piss off your audience beforehand.


&#128580;&#128580;&#128580;


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> PS- I'm hoping to help a rancher by killing a cow with these extra tags that are available. But then that means another year of no buying beef. Catch 22, I guess.


I'll bet that you have to support your local rancher anyway because of a tag decrease for the next couple of years from the increased (fall and) winter kill this year...

Think I'll just eat more (pine) chicken, turkey, and crappie instead.


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

And I'm hoping to support two ranchers who are friends of mine AND the "herds" by killing two corn-fed deer (a buck and a doe) that are feeding in one friend's corn fields on a unit that is already over the population objective and the buck to doe ratio (Pine Valley). And then by killing a corn-fed doe antelope on a CWMU owned by the other friend, also on the Pine Valley unit. As for the cow elk, I have an archery elk tag and I'll have to see if I can fill that in the next few days on the Zion unit before I try for one of the additional antlerless elk tags. Wish me luck, huh? :grin:


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> And I'm hoping to support two ranchers who are friends of mine AND the "herds" by killing two corn-fed deer (a buck and a doe) that are feeding in one friend's corn fields on a unit that is already over the population objective and the buck to doe ratio (Pine Valley). And then by killing a corn-fed doe antelope on a CWMU owned by the other friend, also on the Pine Valley unit. As for the cow elk, I have an archery elk tag and I'll have to see if I can fill that in the next few days on the Zion unit before I try for one of the additional antlerless elk tags. Wish me luck, huh? :grin:


I'd be happy to utilize my lifetime license next year to come and assist your friend reduce the corn-fed bucks on his property. I'm a team player like that!


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

elkfromabove said:


> And I'm hoping to support two ranchers who are friends of mine AND the "herds" by killing two corn-fed deer (a buck and a doe) that are feeding in one friend's corn fields on a unit that is already over the population objective and the buck to doe ratio (Pine Valley). And then by killing a corn-fed doe antelope on a CWMU owned by the other friend, also on the Pine Valley unit. As for the cow elk, I have an archery elk tag and I'll have to see if I can fill that in the next few days on the Zion unit before I try for one of the additional antlerless elk tags. Wish me luck, huh? :grin:


Shot a chubby butterball cornfed whitetail one year. I knew he was litterally cornfed because that's where he came from before I shot him.

Nothing better, except maybe natural grass fed oryx...


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> As a hunter, I don't know how anyone could watch the comments made by ranchers at this last board meeting and not feel as if you needed to run your head through a brick wall.


Not just ranchers. One of those guys was a Wayne County Commissioner!! (Blackburn)
Both of them (Blackburn / King) expressed their desire to remove all antelope and elk from the Boulder / Parker! They also were in favor of removing the bison from the Henry's.



Vanilla said:


> And there are some ranchers that would completely eradicate the game we love to chase if they could get away with it.


_Could_? Or do?
This has been happening already in Piute and Wayne counties.



Vanilla said:


> Not all ranching operations are that way, but there are some. So, when they act like that, or intentionally work to the detriment of our Wild game, then yes, they deserve criticism and deserve to be attacked back. I don't care what they grow, they don't get a pass on taking anti-hunting positions anymore than those southern Californians you seen to not be fond of.


There was only 1 person in that Board meeting that stood up and expressed his desire to have cattle reduced in order to increase elk / bison numbers in the future. This is what we need more of! If more hunters showed up at Board meetings saying this same thing, maybe they'd hear us. If more hunters would vote in better commissioners and legislators into office, then maybe the Cattlemen's Association would start to lose their grip on land / wildlife management in this state.



Vanilla said:


> PS- I'm hoping to help a rancher by killing a cow with these extra tags that are available. But then that means another year of no buying beef. Catch 22, I guess.


That's the process of a rational mind.

They have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.
-- Joeseph Heller


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH, don't criticize those that grow our food. You'll be a southern Californian if you do! 

And yes, the notion of not reducing, but ELIMINATING the pronghorn and elk along with the bison discussion is what I was referring to. That is anti-hunting as it gets, and they don't get a pass for it. They deserve to be criticized and attacked when they pull crap like this. 

And I've heard the stories about farmers/ranchers intentionally gut shooting cow elk by the dozens, but have never had them confirmed. Sometimes I put those in the Deseret dropping sacks of flour and Mossback blocking roads files. But if you have solid information on that, I would love to hear about it! 

Let's do lunch when you come up to hit the next Wildlife Board meeting with me to speak out for our wildlife together.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> And I've heard the stories about farmers/ranchers intentionally gut shooting cow elk by the dozens, but have never had them confirmed. ... But if you have solid information on that, I would love to hear about it!


Here's one from May 2012: http://www.richfieldreaper.com/news/local/article_8719e546-93cb-11e1-bf3c-001a4bcf887a.html

In June 2012, Gary Allen showed up at the WB meeting. His comments were:
_ "I just want to say on record that the 38,000 acres that you guys are all taking credit for that, half of that should have went to livestock. Livestock should have had a 50 % increase before you guys get any increase. That's the way it's set up. There's been no permittees that's got any more, no permits. And I'm telling you don't raise your, I don't want you to raise your elk numbers. I don't want to have to, instead of feeding 400 head of them; I don't want to have to feed 800. Because he has the tools to manage that but he can't manage one little bunch of elk. But Teresa I want to thank you for one thing, because you do know how to manage elk. You give me permission to shoot them and that's the best management tool that you guys has got.
...
And for, this comment's for the sportsman, if you're going to threaten me then you're going to threaten my family, go ahead and sign your name."_

There were numerous other poaching incidents in Piute County (2014) that just so happened to be on Allen / Gleave land. 
https://wildlife.utah.gov/officers-on-patrol/1367-two-cow-elk-poached-near-otter-creek.html
https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-dwr-hoping-to-track-down-poacher-of-six-point-bull-elk

I don't think they ever caught the people that killed them -- but it wouldn't be hard to point a finger in a general direction....


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

You know, a guy could stick himself a 500 lb heifer or bull during archery season, do the gutless method and bone it out and notch your archery tag and no one will be the wiser - especially if you process yourself.

When ranchers make statements about shooting wildlife, they should expect a little "ruslting" to happen...


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

High Desert Elk said:


> You know, a guy could stick himself a 500 lb heifer or bull during archery season, do the gutless method and bone it out and notch your archery tag and no one will be the wiser - especially if you process yourself.
> 
> When ranchers make statements about shooting wildlife, they should expect a little "ruslting" to happen...


 I know your comment was partially tongue in cheek, but please don't go down this road.
Whatever our disagreements may be concerning land use it does not lend itself to intentionally breaking the law.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

middlefork said:


> I know your comment was partially tongue in cheek, but please don't go down this road.
> Whatever our disagreements may be concerning land use it does not lend itself to intentionally breaking the law.


True on both ends.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> When ranchers make statements about shooting wildlife, they should expect a little "ruslting" to happen...


My free legal advice for the day is don't do this!


----------



## 1trhall (Oct 18, 2017)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> It isn't up for debate. 80% of the beef in this country is raised and sold by 4 corporations, the most of which are raised in feedlots. 97% of all cattle spend time in feedlots. Feedlots are actually the most common/efficient way beef is raised and how it is kept cheap. You can raise far more beef in a 100
> acre food lot and feed them higher quality food compared to how much acreage and open space it would take to sustain the same amount of beef on rangeland especially the low quality rangeland like Utah. It may seem like a lot to you, but in the actual picture it is not, let alone the beef and sheep that use public lands being an even smaller percentage, by a long shot. I support the activity, but it's a lie to say beef prices would drastically increase even if you removed every single livestock using public lands tomorrow. Now the food lot way of raising these animals has its many negatives, but it is the way the vast majority of beef finds its way to Americans dinner plates.
> 
> All you really have to do is go look at the many dairys in our state. The amount of rangeland/pasture it would take to raise them as compared to feeding them high quality hay/grain in small feedlots would be astronomically more and more expensive.


 Your "Not up for debate facts" are a bit wanting. Whether intentional or not what you're missing is that although "80%" of the beef may be sold by 4 large corporations, the majority of those cattle started out on range land. They were not born in a feedlot. They were purchased at auctions as wieners and feeders which are then "finished out" in a feedlot. 
Growing up in a ranching family and becoming a die hard big game hunter I am a bit conflicted and understand many of the arguments. I too hate seeing sheep and cattle all over "my mountain" and am discouraged that the ranchers have such a large part in the decision making of our big game herd quotas. Unfortunately this is a very complex issue that becomes even more complex when the economics are considered. On top of the fact that much of the range land is federal but the game management is state. A solution acceptable to all is at best politically challenging as the loss of income to the state and federal governments for the grazing rights would have to be replaced most likely with higher taxes as well as the increases in cost to not only beef, but all the products that derive from sheep and cattle, ie; wool, etc....


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> My free legal advice for the day is don't do this!


I bring this up because I have seen big cows and steers dead as can be shot with an arrow.

Some states allow ranchers/land owners to shoot and kill game on their property that are damaging crops or tearing into feed for livestock. In NM it's called the Jennings Law. The animal can be shot, but must remain on the private land. If anyone leaves with it, it is an instant game law violation.

The key to this, is private land. It cannot be on public. Some places in northern NM best to leave alone what happens, legal or not. Another reason I bring it up...


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Well this convo has definitely taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque so to speak. Whether or not the cattle at market spent time on public lands is beside the point. BLM and the Forest Service operate their grazing programs at a major loss to the tax payer. So, as a tax payer, I cannot understand why I have to pay $2 to subsidize the costs of the program for every $1 a rancher pays in order for the rancher to displace wildlife and allow their livestock to defecate all over the hills. 

The comment made about ranchers putting up miles of fences and cattle guards as though those were somehow beneficial to the public on public land left me scratching my head even more. The cattle guards in public roads on public lands are only for the benefit of the rancher, and frankly I hate that clanging when I drive over them. Not to mention I have witnessed on more than 1 occasion a deer or elk break a leg in those things. Don't get me started on the number of fawns, calves, and adult animals I've seen dead or dying as they are tangled up in the miles of fencing in the precious sage brush put up by ranchers. My family has filled more than one tag out of mercy to put an end to the suffering of an animal mangled in that barbed wire atrocity. How in the world are those fences beneficial to the public?

The loss of income from grazing fees would result in departmental budget INCREASES, so arguably we could lower taxes. For every $1 in AUMs the BLM/FS receive, they spend $3 to manage the programs. If you think that grazing is a boon to the public I'll make you a deal: I will pay you $10/sqft for me to plant a garden in your yard, provided that you and your neighbors pay me $30/sqft so I can oversee and manage the project to ensure it is handled correctly. Deal?


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> I will pay you $10/sqft for me to plant a garden in your yard, provided that you and your neighbors pay me $30/sqft so I can oversee and manage the project to ensure it is handled correctly. Deal?


Can I pay you fair market value afterward for said veggies? Because this seems like too good of a deal to pass up if I get to pay you again for the veggies!


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

"His specialty was [cattle], and he made a good thing out of not [raising] any. The government paid him well for every [newborn calf] he did not [raise]. The more [cattle] he did not [raise], the more money the government gave him, and he spent every penny he didn't earn on new [AUM's] to increase the amount of [cattle] he did not [raise]. [Utah ranchers] worked without rest at not raising [cattle]."

Though, I changed it a bit, Joseph Heller nailed it in Catch-22!

Johnnycake, your gardening plan sounds a lot like Milo Minderbinder's scheme in Catch-22 as well!


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Can I pay you fair market value afterward for said veggies? Because this seems like too good of a deal to pass up if I get to pay you again for the veggies!


Well, since I can produce them below the cost of other operations, I will go ahead and offer the veggies at $0.01 below the next best price at Smith's.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

-O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__-


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> Well this convo has definitely taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque so to speak. Whether or not the cattle at market spent time on public lands is beside the point. BLM and the Forest Service operate their grazing programs at a major loss to the tax payer. So, as a tax payer, I cannot understand why I have to pay $2 to subsidize the costs of the program for every $1 a rancher pays in order for the rancher to displace wildlife and allow their livestock to defecate all over the hills.
> 
> The comment made about ranchers putting up miles of fences and cattle guards as though those were somehow beneficial to the public on public land left me scratching my head even more. The cattle guards in public roads on public lands are only for the benefit of the rancher, and frankly I hate that clanging when I drive over them. Not to mention I have witnessed on more than 1 occasion a deer or elk break a leg in those things. Don't get me started on the number of fawns, calves, and adult animals I've seen dead or dying as they are tangled up in the miles of fencing in the precious sage brush put up by ranchers. My family has filled more than one tag out of mercy to put an end to the suffering of an animal mangled in that barbed wire atrocity. How in the world are those fences beneficial to the public?
> 
> The loss of income from grazing fees would result in departmental budget INCREASES, so arguably we could lower taxes. For every $1 in AUMs the BLM/FS receive, they spend $3 to manage the programs. If you think that grazing is a boon to the public I'll make you a deal: I will pay you $10/sqft for me to plant a garden in your yard, provided that you and your neighbors pay me $30/sqft so I can oversee and manage the project to ensure it is handled correctly. Deal?


The wrong turn happened somewhere between Logan and Cedar City with the discussion going from increased antlerless tags and money generated from public land grazing and the beef industry...


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Well, after multiple requests, I think I'll close this one up.

It is September guys! Best time of year in the Rockies! Get out from behind your computer and go visit a mountain, stream, desert, lake, something. Relax. Enjoy the outdoors. Take a chill and enjoy.


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks Gary.


I had to pull out my enigma machine to figure out why this one went south.


Anyone looking forward to the deer hunt?


----------



## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Im a tad slow.
8)


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm making apple cider, applesauce and pickled beets. Leave me alone.


.


----------

