# New Traditions... muzzleloader or not??



## scattergun (Jul 26, 2013)

I would like to get some opinions on the new Traditions nitrofire "muzzleloader" they are offering. Keep in mind the state of Utah has not made any kind of ruling on this new firearm as yet but I'm quite positive it's in the works!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that the problem that will come up with it is that the powder is loaded from the breach and not the muzzle even if the bullet is seated from the muzzle.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Seems like it's halfway there to being a single shot break action.

edit: Utah law

Can only be loaded from the muzzle, much left to interpretation there, what do they define as "loading"? Projectile only? Powder and projectile?

*R657-5-10. Muzzleloaders.*

(1) A muzzleloader may be used during any big game hunt, except an archery hunt, provided the muzzleloader:
(a) can be loaded only from the muzzle;
(b) has open sights, peep sights, or a variable or fixed power scope, including a magnifying scope;
(c) has a single barrel;
(d) has a minimum barrel length of 18 inches;
(e) is capable of being fired only once without reloading;
(f) powder and bullet, or powder, sabot and bullet are not bonded together as one unit for loading;
(g) is loaded with black powder or black powder substitute, which must not contain smokeless powder.
(2)(a) A lead or expanding bullet or projectile of at least 40 caliber must be used to hunt big game.
(b) A bullet 130 grains or heavier, or a sabot 170 grains or heavier, must be used for taking deer and pronghorn.
(c) A 210 grain or heavier bullet must be used for taking elk, moose, bison, bighorn sheep, and Rocky Mountain goat, except sabot bullets used for taking these species must be a minimum of 240 grains.
(3)(a) A person who has obtained a muzzleloader permit for a big game hunt may:
(i) use only muzzleloader equipment authorized in this Subsections (1) and (2) to take the species authorized in the permit; and
(ii) not possess or be in control of a rifle or shotgun while in the field during the muzzleloader hunt.
(b) "Field" for purposes of this section, means a location where the permitted species of wildlife is likely to be found, but does not include a hunter's established campsite or the interior of a fully enclosed automobile or truck.
(c) The provisions of Subsection (a) do not apply to:
(i) a person lawfully hunting upland game or waterfowl;
(ii) a person licensed to hunt big game species during hunts that coincide with the muzzleloader hunt;
(iii) livestock owners protecting their livestock; or
(iv) a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon in accordance with Title 53, Chapter 5, Part 7 of the Utah Code, provided the person is not utilizing the concealed firearm to hunt or take protected wildlife.
(4) A person who has obtained an any weapon permit for a big game hunt may use muzzleloader equipment authorized in this Section to take the species authorized in the permit.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Pretty sure it won't pass the sniff test as the rule stands, but if there is room for a few envelopes full of cash to be passed around it will soon be a legal weapon.
I personally don't see any problem with legalizing any weapon in view of what we call legal weapons now. In reality what we have now is nothing more than a single shot hunt. We haven't had a "primitive weapons" hunt for many, many years.
BUT, you never know, if the envelopes aren't passed, there's a good chance they will not be legalized and you'll be stuck with a gun you can't use(yet).


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I could do the same thing in all my inline muzzleloaders... just unscrew the breech lug, pop two pellets of powder in, screw the breech lug back in, and stuff a bullet down the muzzle. 

Totally doable, but extremely inconvenient.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

derekp1999 said:


> I could do the same thing in all my inline muzzleloaders... just unscrew the breech lug, pop two pellets of powder in, screw the breech lug back in, and stuff a bullet down the muzzle.
> 
> Totally doable, but extremely inconvenient.


But this one has the powder charge and primer all in one. No breach plug.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I've mentioned several times in the past that an original 1780 museum quality Ferguson Rifle is illegal to hunt with today. This is a gun that predates the "Hawkin" design by a full 40 years. Its a breech loader black powder rifle. 

Very old tech. But then again, inline muzzleloaders were around in 1730 Germany, 100 years before the Hawkins came to be.

History is pretty crazy. Smart people have always been around improving things.

But... to the OP, this new gun shouldnt be allowed.

-DallanC


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Critter said:


> But this one has the powder charge and primer all in one. No breach plug.
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


I was thinking that as well. Looked entirely different that what I am used to shooting. Looked as though the powder was bonded inside the orange casing and you just put casing in, then the primer in to shoot. I noticed there was little to no smoke that came out when fired. I've always had to wait for the smoke to blow away to see the target / game.

It'll be interesting to see how this is ruled.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Huh- hadn't seen this yet. Interesting concept, definitely would like to see what the ruling is on this. I think I'll keep my CVA Optima.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Thinking this over, I really dont see any practical advantage to this over loading everything from the bore. Cleaning perhaps, but it wont be any faster to reload vs muzzle loading, and probably alot less accurate than loading from the muzzle as well.

On average I can reload any of my "muzzleloaders" usually in about 12-15 seconds with a speedloader and dogbone. I'm sure most other's here are around that time too.

As for accuracy, the CVA has a bullet stop it seems, which means you cant compress it firmly against the powder. I wonder how they deal with gaps left by using a less than max powder charge... or maybe you can only shoot max charges. IDK...


-DallanC


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

The only thing this rifle does is it can take one step out at the muzzle. Using a speed loader does the same thing, however. The breach still needs to be opened and an action takes place by placing a primer.

My guess is the rule makers won't say much until they deem it being a problem, likely after a court ruling in favor of someone who uses one, gets a citation, and their attorney effectively arguing their case...


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Seems like it's halfway there to being a single shot break action.
> 
> edit: Utah law
> 
> ...


Looks like "1-A" would be just one reason it wouldn't be legal. They might interpret this as slug and powder goes down the barrel and I agree it should .


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Thinking this over, I really dont see any practical advantage to this over loading everything from the bore. Cleaning perhaps, but it wont be any faster to reload vs muzzle loading, and probably alot less accurate than loading from the muzzle as well.
> 
> On average I can reload any of my "muzzleloaders" usually in about 12-15 seconds with a speedloader and dogbone. I'm sure most other's here are around that time too.
> 
> ...


With this set up, you have no other option than to use the "firestick", which is priced at $27/10 pack. With the bullet stop, I'm sure they placed it so that the bullet is right above the end of the firestick. Not sure if there are certain charges that you can buy with the firestick, but I'd imagine they are all the same length regardless of charge.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

waspocrew said:


> With this set up, you have no other option than to use the "firestick", which is priced at $27/10 pack. With the bullet stop, I'm sure they placed it so that the bullet is right above the end of the firestick. Not sure if there are certain charges that you can buy with the firestick, but I'd imagine they are all the same length regardless of charge.


Exactly, and gaps between powder and projectile are a big no-no. You can get some severe pressure spikes.

In fact, back in the day Hodgdon said Pyrodex needed to be packed tight by putting alot of pressure on the bullet. Older smokepole shooters will remember the ramrod "clickers" that worked sortof like a torque wrench, when you applied the recommended amount of pressure the handle would "click".

With this system, if someone doesnt fill the tube all the way to the end you will not only have loose powder, but maybe even a gap.

This "gun" is a solution looking for a problem to solve.

-DallanC


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Exactly, and gaps between powder and projectile are a big no-no. You can get some severe pressure spikes.
> 
> In fact, back in the day Hodgdon said Pyrodex needed to be packed tight by putting alot of pressure on the bullet. Older smokepole shooters will remember the ramrod "clickers" that worked sortof like a torque wrench, when you applied the recommended amount of pressure the handle would "click".
> 
> ...


You're totally right, a gap between the projectile and powder charge is not a good thing. That's why I mark my ramrod. I'm sure a muzzleloader manufacturer is aware of this issue as well, otherwise, they probably wouldn't be around very long. I've attached a photo of the apparent bullet shelf. Who knows what the actual distance between the firestick and projectile is (is probably enlarged for illustrative purposes), but I'm assuming it's been deemed "safe".

The whole point of this rifle is apparent convenience. The firesticks (which are pre-charged with either 100 or 120 gr charges) are not meant to be reused. You can see from the photo that they are completely sealed. Once fired, you toss them. At ~$2.70 a pop, I don't see too many people using these very often.

Again, I'll stick with my CVA Optima. I don't see a reason to change.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Wow, I didnt realize that they are 1 time use. Really dumb idea. I fine tune my loads with loose powder to get the performance I need. Never seen "off the shelf" pellets or whatever that out did loose powder.


-DallanC


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Possibly an advantage in high humidity hunting areas?
Pop the Firestick out at night and keep in a dry bag...I dunno.


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## Topdogjr2002 (Jun 7, 2020)

Based on the video that show them loading powder from the back and the bullet into the front, it doesn't appear to me to meet the "...only loads from the muzzle" requirement. Just my opinion... I'm shopping around and won't be purchasing that one. There are too many other options for me.


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