# The BLM, cattle , and feral horses



## #1DEER 1-I

So what are your thoughts ? Personally I think the BLM had every right to take care of the issue after several warnings. The cattle were scheduled to be sold in Richfield but I'm not sure at this point. I also think it's fine if Iron county and Beaver county choose to take care of there horse problem if the BLM does not . 
http://m.reviewjournal.com/news/utah-county-cites-hypocrisy-clark-county-roundup

http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/ar...-a-stand-in-blm-bundy-range-war/#.Uz7NCO29LCQ


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## Dunkem

Why do they want to bring them to Utah to sell?Sell them in Nevada,dont drag Utah into this.We have enough problems already.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Dunkem said:


> Why do they want to bring them to Utah to sell?Sell them in Nevada,dont drag Utah into this.We have enough problems already.


No auction house in Nevada would agree. There is a $300,000 profit for the auction house that allows them to run through. One here in Utah agreed to it because no one else would do it. I think the guy got what he deserved. Do you want me or think it would be right for me to go let my cattle go anywhere on any public land I want illegally and not pay a fee? That's the question we should ask. People blaming the BLM for giving him every benefit of the doubt are ridiculous he dug his own grave, why not bring some government money into Utah? I do agree that the horses and saying they don't have funding is hypocritical though.


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## PBH

It's all just beginning. It's going to get worse in another month or two.

You start by kicking out the Feds. Then the counties kick out the state. Then the cities kick out the counties.

We've already seen wildlife being killed (poached) because of grazing permits being pulled. Local law enforcement is being pulled in and run by the locals -- what do they call that? inmates running the jail (NBA)? Something like that.

Things are getting crazy. We need some rain. Somebody build an ark.


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## #1DEER 1-I

PBH said:


> It's all just beginning. It's going to get worse in another month or two.
> 
> You start by kicking out the Feds. Then the counties kick out the state. Then the cities kick out the counties.
> 
> We've already seen wildlife being killed (poached) because of grazing permits being pulled. Local law enforcement is being pulled in and run by the locals -- what do they call that? inmates running the jail (NBA)? Something like that.
> 
> Things are getting crazy. We need some rain. Somebody build an ark.


I am afraid to, but they pulled his permits because he wasn't willing to pay, is there anything wrong with that? No, but it will spark outcry. I was talking to an old farmer who has been part of these Piute county meetings about the elk, and I've begun to realize how little cattle people want to listen to the forest service and BLM now, and how much they despise the elk and DWR, I hope it doesn't get too bad. But on this subject, the guy who agreed to auction the cattle is just doing his job, and fulfilling his livelihood, I hope that he gets it done and no one try's to ruin him. So far he has got threats he will be ruined, has had petitioners outside his auctions and stopping people leaving his auction. I feel kind of bad for the hard working nice guy who's just trying to make a living. The BLM took the cattle, he is doing his job and I'd probably take the $300,000 too.


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## Dunkem

Not saying he did not get what he deserved,just seems like it will muddy the waters here:|


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## #1DEER 1-I

Dunkem said:


> Not saying he did not get what he deserved,just seems like it will muddy the waters here:|


Ya things have already began to come into conflict too much. Now the BLM and Forest Service will really have some enemies.


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## Packout

They didn't pull his permits just because he didn't pay, they curbed his allotment for the Desert Tortoise which caused him to dispute the change and then the BLM closed the allotment for desert tortoise habitat. I've never met them, but I have bought Bundy Cattle before and know exactly what they are-- each cow is worth $700-900 just to kill x 500 cows and that is $350-450,000. Add in 400 or so calves at an average price of $600 or so each and there is another $250,000. I don't know many people who'd put $600-700,000+ on the line.... I might not agree with their stance, but it seems the change to their permit- which they had used for over 100 years- probably could have been handled differently. Times-a-changin' usually doesn't go over well with people who have lived their own lives outside the bounds of "normal 9to5" society. I agree with PBH- things will most likely get worse before they get better on the path we're headed.


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## klbzdad

The Utah counties have, for the most part, gotten what they wanted although the proof is in the pudding and we're all still just standing here in Iron County holding our spoons.

Iron County Gets Response From BLM

Bundy has repeatedly insisted he either inherited grazing permits or bought them. Neither is true.


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## bowgy

Just FWIW.

In 1946, the Grazing Service was merged with the General Land Office to form the Bureau of Land Management within the Department of the Interior. When the BLM was initially created, there were over 2,000 unrelated and often conflicting laws for managing the public lands. The BLM had no unified legislative mandate until Congress enacted the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 (FLPMA). 

In FLPMA, Congress recognized the value of the remaining public lands by declaring that these lands would remain in public ownership. Congress also gave us the term "multiple-use" management, defined as "management of the public lands and their various resource values so that they are utilized in the combination that will best meet the present and future needs of the American people."

I don't think Bundy wanted to accept the legality of the changes.


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## RandomElk16

Just found a strong 1 sided version of this:

http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/...y-targeted-by-fed-snipers-for-non-compliance/


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## Mr Muleskinner

RandomElk16 said:


> Just found a strong 1 sided version of this:
> 
> http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/...y-targeted-by-fed-snipers-for-non-compliance/


Yea i think one sided is a pretty fair statement. If the land is so public as Bundy claims I wonder what his reaction would have been if a few other cattle ranchers took their cattle to the same spot to graze. I bet things would have gone from public to private real quick.


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## Huntoholic

While this case has a life of it's own, I really do not like the heavy handed action by the BLM. Just plain wrong.........


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## wyoming2utah

Huntoholic said:


> While this case has a life of it's own, I really do not like the heavy handed action by the BLM. Just plain wrong.........


I do. Why should these guys get a free ride? They have not paid for their leases or permits for how many years was it? Why shouldn't their cattle be confiscated and removed from public land? I am glad to see one of our federal land agencies actually acting with some back bone&#8230;I just wish the forest service would start doing the same on some of our forest land with ATV abuse.


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## Critter

I wonder how a lot of the members on here would feel if the cattle were grazing in their favorite deer or elk hunting areas and not out on the Nevada desert? I would be willing to bet that they would be slapping the BLM on the back and saying how good of a job that they are doing instead of condemning them.


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## Huntoholic

wyoming2utah said:


> I do. Why should these guys get a free ride? They have not paid for their leases or permits for how many years was it? Why shouldn't their cattle be confiscated and removed from public land? I am glad to see one of our federal land agencies actually acting with some back bone&#8230;I just wish the forest service would start doing the same on some of our forest land with ATV abuse.


I have decided the case is to complicated to offer a worth while opinion. But the way the BLM is conducting themselves is BS. This is not a military operation. Snipers and 22 ground officers plus canine for one individual taking pictures from the highway is out of line. If you cannot see that I am sorry for you.

I can just see it, 22 law enforce for camping in the wrong place.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Huntoholic said:


> While this case has a life of it's own, I really do not like the heavy handed action by the BLM. Just plain wrong.........


I am very glad they are heavy handed with somebody that is treating our land as if it is his own. It is no different in my opinion that somebody that chooses to mine on it illegally, log on it illegally or build on it illegally. Wrong is wrong and the guy has had more than enough time to be legal.


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## wyoming2utah

Huntoholic said:


> I have decided the case is to complicated to offer a worth while opinion. But the way the BLM is conducting themselves is BS. This is not a military operation. Snipers and 22 ground officers plus canine for one individual taking pictures from the highway is out of line. If you cannot see that I am sorry for you.
> 
> I can just see it, 22 law enforce for camping in the wrong place.


The Bundy's are the ones that threatened physical action&#8230;.IF I were rounding up those cattle, I would be damned sure I had some weaponry too. I think the BLMs show of force is warranted based on threats made&#8230;and it is there to prevent the Bundy's from getting physical.


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## wyoming2utah

Huntoholic said:


> I can just see it, 22 law enforce for camping in the wrong place.


Remember the Mountain Man that was arrested in southern utah last year for "camping in the wrong place"? Don't you think that 22 law enforcement officers were warranted?

I feel like this Bundy situation is no different&#8230;.the threat of force or violent action on their part has been issued!


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## swbuckmaster

So the guys family has been grazing on the land since the 1800's. Paying the grazing fees and the feds come in and yank his grazing rights because of an endangered turtle. So he quits paying grazing fees and takes them to court but still grazes his cattle on the land. He does this for 20 years. Now because the land is over grazed because of the wild horses/ burrows and his cows the feds decide they are coming in to take his cattle. 

Am I up to speed or not? Im confused to know why he thinks public land is his and he can free graze off of it for 20 years. Im confused to why the wild horses arent being put down like our elk do when they even think there's an over objective problem.


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## Fowlmouth

This whole thing is confusing to me. You hear one thing about how the Bundy's are within their rights and then another about how the BLM is within their rights. State land or Federal land? 100 years of grazing there, and all of the sudden it is a problem. Federal militia knocking women and ranchers around. Sheriff against Sheriff with warning shots fired. I don't know what to believe at this point. :?:-?:-? What a freaking mess!


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## wyoming2utah

swbuckmaster said:


> Im confused to why the wild horses arent being put down like our elk do when they even think there's an over objective problem.


I can answer that question&#8230;in the past when the BLM decided to put horses down because of over population problems and skinny unhealthy horses, the horse lovers jumped in and threw a huge fit. Negative attention was thrown at the BLM from all corners of the world and horse lovers from all over cried foul&#8230;I would be willing to bet that the BLM is afraid to put horses down.

The BLM has asked the DWR to help them correct the problem with their numbers&#8230;without killing them, though. The DWR should tell them to do it themselves&#8230;!


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## Huntoholic

wyoming2utah said:


> Remember the Mountain Man that was arrested in southern utah last year for "camping in the wrong place"? Don't you think that 22 law enforcement officers were warranted?
> 
> I feel like this Bundy situation is no different&#8230;.the threat of force or violent action on their part has been issued!


Big difference between these two situations.

Have the Bundy's shown up with weapons or displayed weapons? Again one guy standing on the side of a public highway does not require that level of force. You don't even see that level of force used in the majority of felony stops.


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## Huntoholic

wyoming2utah said:


> The Bundy's are the ones that threatened physical action&#8230;.IF I were rounding up those cattle, I would be damned sure I had some weaponry too. I think the BLMs show of force is warranted based on threats made&#8230;and it is there to prevent the Bundy's from getting physical.


Hog wash. Their show of force is to show not to mess with them. Period.


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## Huntoholic

Critter said:


> I wonder how a lot of the members on here would feel if the cattle were grazing in their favorite deer or elk hunting areas and not out on the Nevada desert? I would be willing to bet that they would be slapping the BLM on the back and saying how good of a job that they are doing instead of condemning them.


Not condemning them for enforcing the law. Condemning them for the heavy handed way they are doing it. Does not require a faction of the assets being used to enforce this court order.


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## Critter

Huntoholic said:


> Not condemning them for enforcing the law. Condemning them for the heavy handed way they are doing it. Does not require a faction of the assets being used to enforce this court order.


I doubt that we will ever know just what was said one way or another. Verbal threats may of been made towards the BLM and if that was the case then a show of force is inevitable.

It is always better to have extra officers on the site than to have to call in backup that may be a hour away.


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## Huntoholic

Critter said:


> I doubt that we will ever know just what was said one way or another. Verbal threats may of been made towards the BLM and if that was the case then a show of force is inevitable.
> 
> It is always better to have extra officers on the site than to have to call in backup that may be a hour away.


I agree, but how I use those assets in a political situation is very important. To come out of the gates with 11 vehicles for a guy taking pictures, in the open, off of a PUBLIC highway is over the top.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Huntoholic said:


> I agree, but how I use those assets in a political situation is very important. To come out of the gates with 11 vehicles for a guy taking pictures, in the open, off of a PUBLIC highway is over the top.


Maybe it was over the top depending on where the truth lies. Bundy has been a little over the top with the liberty he has taken though for many years. He and his group are almost acting as if they want another Waco to happen just to make a point. If they push things that far they have it coming. He can stand down and get right with the law or pay the penalty for not doing so.


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## RandomElk16

It is hard for me because I have land next to some A-hole rancher(him, not them all) who free ranges on my land, they destroy my fences and gates, then he makes a bunch of money as a CWMU and is more than willing to shoot animals on my land...

That is all besides the point. Fact is, I support his cattle, I don't raise a muck of it, and I don't make any money off it. The least he can do is pay a small fee, and the least the BLM can do is use that fee to improve our public resources.

On the flip side, think if someone were to go to this Nevada rancher and ask to hunt on his land while he utilizes public land. How would that go over?

I wish that grazing, trespassing, poaching, all wilderness violations were taken on with a heavier hand. Maybe it would reduce some of the abuse that goes on.


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## Huntoholic

I wish they would just enforce all the many laws and regulations as they were intended, instead of making everything a WACO.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Huntoholic said:


> I wish they would just enforce all the many laws and regulations as they were intended, instead of making everything a WACO.


A little over the top there. When was the last Waco and how did the law over step their boundaries? Not to say that it doesn't happen but I have never had a run in with the law. Law abiding citizens typically do not.

A show of force is nothing more than a show of force. If I were knowingly doing something illegal out of spite for the government I would expect something to happen that I was not in favor of. This clown has brought this on himself.


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## Huntoholic

Mr Muleskinner said:


> A show of force is nothing more than a show of force. .


Hog Wash........

You can project force without showing force.

I sure am glad the cops of old days knew how to project force and use common sense without being over the top.......


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## Huntoholic

Mr Muleskinner said:


> A little over the top there. When was the last Waco and how did the law over step their boundaries? Not to say that it doesn't happen but I have never had a run in with the law. Law abiding citizens typically do not.
> 
> A show of force is nothing more than a show of force. If I were knowingly doing something illegal out of spite for the government I would expect something to happen that I was not in favor of. This clown has brought this on himself.


They could have arrested Clive and his son's and then started the round up. But we can't do that. Wouldn't be in the news for others to see the "Show of Force".


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## LostLouisianian

If this is about the desert tortoise why did the fed gov kill several hundred tortoises recently at the conservation center in NV where they were being taken care of. This is way deeper than the desert tortoise. Why did the state of NV buy out all the other ranchers in the area if it is BLM land. Folks not saying who is right or wrong here but there are a lot of unanswered questions where two and two is not adding up to four. Why did the BLM troopers go onto the land yesterday with backhoes and dump trunks and destroy wells and watering holes....does this sound like they are concerned about the land to you?


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## RandomElk16

Huntoholic said:


> Hog Wash........
> 
> You can project force without showing force.
> 
> I sure am glad the cops of old days knew how to project force and use common sense without being over the top.......


I think they have been wanting him to pay grazing rights for the past 20 years? Obviously the other means were not working.

There may have been a lot of back-door, threatening action going on we don't know about. So maybe they decide to stand up for themselves to him, and why not make it public. Make notice of it to all the others who are violating. That way, they don't have to continue to deal with this crap, and have a bunch of people whine about it.

Growing up I was far from abused. But, I had a lickin'. Didn't take much more than one or two to take pa serious. After that, you follow the rules. This was them given these ranchers a lickin'


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## Fowlmouth

The Feds spending over $3 million dollars to do this round up doesn't make sense either. (Okay let's spend $3 million because the Bundy's owe us $1 million) again very confused as to what is going on.:?


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## Critter

Fowlmouth said:


> The Feds spending over $3 million dollars to do this round up doesn't make sense either. (Okay let's spend $3 million because the Bundy's owe us $1 million) again very confused as to what is going on.:?


There is never very much reasoning when you look at the money spent to what is returned kind of justification with anything that the government does. But if they spend it now perhaps they will not need to spend it again next year on the next person that figures that they can get away with it. They are just making an example of this rancher and showing the next one what will happen if they try to buck the government.

The big thing about it is the principal of it. They are showing that when you don't pay for your grazing rights and try to buck the government after they either ask or tell you to get your cattle off of the range what will happen.


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## riptheirlips

It seems everyone is blaming Bundy for not paying his grazing fees. How about the BLM complying with federal law and reducing the number of wild horses to what they are suppose to be on this BLM property. Then Bundy's cows would be getting the feed they are suppose to be paying for. What everyone wants Bundy to do is pay for the feed for his cows but the BLM lets their horses eat his feed they want him to pay for. Control the horses and I bet the ranchers would be happy to pay for their feed. How can BLM steal these cattle prior to having a court to decide whether Bundy is guilty or not guilty. Now the BLM has plenty of money to feed these cattle but no money to control the wild horse population.


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## bowgy

Fowlmouth said:


> The Feds spending over $3 million dollars to do this round up doesn't make sense either. (Okay let's spend $3 million because the Bundy's owe us $1 million) again very confused as to what is going on.:?


I have a few friends in the BLM and they were letting out to the public up to $2 million, but the word going around it was going to be closer to $6 million.


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## gdog

Does Bundy own the land his cows are grazing on....yes or no?


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## RYsenTrout

It is a mighty thin pancake that doesn't have two sides.

You've been grazing 900 cattle on a range for over 50 years. The BLM comes in and says the desert tortoise needs more room and suddenly you have to find a summer home for 750 head of cattle in an area where ranchers are lined up 50 deep to buy any land or permits that go up for sale. You can't simply slaughter 750 head of cattle or you're out of business.

The next question is why have all the tortoises moved into the cattle range? Well, because the tortoises thrive in the same areas as cattle. I will quote just one excerpt from a paper done by U of A - "The toothless tortoise is ill equipped to harvest and masticate range forage. The tortoise can harvest only tender vegetation, and it can't masticate even that. The tortoise can't process enough bulky, low analysis forage fast enough to meet its nutritional requirements (Nagy & Medica 1986). They solved this problem long ago-they allow other animals to do it for them. Desert tortoises feed primarily on dung. The more animals using the range, the more dung, which makes more food available for tortoises." - (https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/rangelands/article/viewFile/10776/10049)

The tortoise want to be close to the cattle so they forage easily on heaping piles of crap. When the cattle leave the number of tortoises will go down. This fact makes me think this isn't about tortoises either.

You can easily argue that the rancher had plenty of time to get off the land, and he did, that is a fair argument. By arguing though you are saying the government is always right as long as they give the people a fair warning that they are losing privileges. Does giving 12 years notice make something right?

This is a two sided deal. On one hand it is scary that the government can take a quarter of a million dollars of your property and sell it. On the other hand, it is always good to solve matters like this with a cool head and as soon as possible.

For those of you who just assume the government will do what is right in all situations you have never dealt with the BLM. I have stories for days.


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## Huntoholic

Sad part is all this "show" will do is further divide people and then some nut case will hurt innocent people in the name of getting even. 

It could of been handled so much better.......


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## bowgy

gdog said:


> Does Bundy own the land his cows are grazing on....yes or no?


Yes, if he is paying taxes he owns it as much as I do and all tax paying citizens.

Maybe more since he has made developments on the land and I haven't.

Does he have a right to graze cattle without paying the fees? The courts have said no.


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## swbuckmaster

http://govtslaves.info/5000-armed-militia-members-will-arriving-nevada-support-rancher/


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## swbuckmaster

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/vide...s-and-blm-officers-over-cattle-dispute_042014


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## Springville Shooter

My knee jerk reaction is to always assume that the Government is wrong....but in this case, I just can't see it. Unfortunately, things change.....just ask a bunch of loggers on the west coast. This rancher seems like a grand stander to me and personally, I think he brought it upon himself. The gigs up bro....time to find another line of work. Personally I'd be willing to pay a little more for beef to get all the cows off public lands. I grew up in a ranching community and have seen ranchers take advantage time and time again. No more subsidized ranchers slurping from the government trough. Either make it in business, or go out of business. I could personally give a crap less about the value of "historic ties" I have historic ties to my families property......and I still have to pay the taxes each year.--------SS


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## Mr Muleskinner

you nailed it SS. I can't hardly believe my eyes or ears of the people that are backing this jackwodd. I am no fan of the government myself but the people that are supporting this guy will support about anybody that is anti-government for any anti-government reason. He has NO legal right to graze his cattle there. PERIOD. He is a welfare rancher plain and simple. Time to get off of the public teet.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/


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## Mr Muleskinner

In the act of being fair I thought that I would post a location for you Bundy supporters. They are taking donations to fight tyranny............or buy a ranch of adequate size that they can truly call their own.........whichever comes first.

Dig deep believers their future depends on you.

http://www.bundyranch.blogspot.com/p/contact-list-attorney-general-state-on.html


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## Kevin D

bowgy said:


> Yes, if he is paying taxes he owns it as much as I do and all tax paying citizens.
> 
> Maybe more since he has made developments on the land and I haven't.


Nice!!

I pay my taxes too! I think I'm going to drill me an oil well or two somewhere on federal land!!


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## RandomElk16

Mr Muleskinner said:


> In the act of being fair I thought that I would post a location for you Bundy supporters. They are taking donations to fight tyranny............or buy a ranch of adequate size that they can truly call their own.........whichever comes first.
> 
> Dig deep believers their future depends on you.
> 
> http://www.bundyranch.blogspot.com/p/contact-list-attorney-general-state-on.html


Now instead of being on the public teet, he can be on the public teet.


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## RandomElk16

Kevin D said:


> Nice!!
> 
> I pay my taxes too! I think I'm going to drill me an oil well or two somewhere on federal land!!


I pay taxes too! Next time I am hunting public property, I am gonna paint the trees orange and kick everyone off my land!


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## Huntoholic

RandomElk16 said:


> I pay taxes too! Next time I am hunting public property, I am gonna paint the trees orange and kick everyone off my land!


You won't be able to hunt, because the ground is closed because of an endangered bug....

I did find it ironic that other brands have been found in the roundup and that those cattle are simple being returned to the ower. I guess they were not trespassing.


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## RandomElk16

Huntoholic said:


> You won't be able to hunt, because the ground is closed because of an endangered bug....
> 
> I did find it ironic that other brands have been found in the roundup and that those cattle are simple being returned to the ower. I guess they were not trespassing.


They probably pay their permits.

Not sure how you are still defending someone who mooched off the land for over 20 years, and was profiting from it.


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## PBH

someone mentioned horses. Keep in mind that the cattle issue is in Clark County, NV. The horse issue is in Iron County, UT. Two seperate issues. I can't figure out why our Iron County Buffoon (errr, commissioner Miller) can't figure that out....


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## Huntoholic

RandomElk16 said:


> They probably pay their permits.
> 
> Not sure how you are still defending someone who mooched off the land for over 20 years, and was profiting from it.


You should probably go back and re-read what I have wrote. Not defending Bundy, but I am mad about the poor handling by the BLM. Their poor handling will get someone hurt or killed.

How do you think things could go for the lone BLM employee a month from now who is doing nothing more the their job? How about the rancher who plays by the rules and does the right thing, but whose cattle are viewed as range maggots?


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## Huntoholic

PBH said:


> someone mentioned horses. Keep in mind that the cattle issue is in Clark County, NV. The horse issue is in Iron County, UT. Two seperate issues. I can't figure out why our Iron County Buffoon (errr, commissioner Miller) can't figure that out....


I think they are pointing to the excuse of money being the reason the horses can't be removed, but yet can spent millions to remove cattle.


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## wyoming2utah

Wait a minute….how come it is only the BLM that is handling this poorly? You don't think Bundy is handling this poorly too? My heck, how many court cases does he have to lose before something needed to be done? What should they have done? Just let him continue to use the land without permission? Continue to send a butt load of cows on to the land without permission? At some point, they HAD to get the cows out of there…how else were they to do that? Just borrow Spock's beam-me-up transporter? And, like the links SWBuckmaster posted convey, the threat of force by those in opposition is REAL. Shouldn't the BLM and Federal Government protect those cowboys who are doing the round up?

What would you have recommended?


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## .45

Huntoholic said:


> You should probably go back and re-read what I have wrote. Not defending Bundy, *but I am mad about the poor handling by the BLM. Their poor handling will get someone hurt or killed.*
> 
> How do you think things could go for the lone BLM employee a month from now who is doing nothing more the their job? How about the rancher who plays by the rules and does the right thing, but whose cattle are viewed as range maggots?


I agree! 200 so called law enforcement officers to protect each other? What a crock. -O,-


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## .45

wyoming2utah said:


> Wait a minute&#8230;.how come it is only the BLM that is handling this poorly? You don't think Bundy is handling this poorly too? My heck, how many court cases does he have to lose before something needed to be done? What should they have done? Just let him continue to use the land without permission? Continue to send a butt load of cows on to the land without permission? At some point, they HAD to get the cows out of there&#8230;how else were they to do that? Just borrow Spock's beam-me-up transporter? And, like the links SWBuckmaster posted convey, the threat of force by those in opposition is REAL. Shouldn't the BLM and Federal Government protect those cowboys who are doing the round up?
> 
> What would you have recommended?


Why not simply arrest the man and let the jury decide? Why the massive show of force and stupidity?


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## Mr Muleskinner

watch the video that they posted and see who the aggressor has been.

You are defending them. It is plain as day.........this has NOTHING to do with those who play by the rules. I don't see any of those people involved in this. All I see is a bunch of brainwashed freeloading welfare ranchers taking advantage of fellow Americans while waiving the flag of "liberty and freedom".


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## wyoming2utah

Huntoholic said:


> I think they are pointing to the excuse of money being the reason the horses can't be removed, but yet can spent millions to remove cattle.


The horses can be removed, but nobody wants them so they sit in pastures and can't be sold. And, it is expensive and difficult to make them unable to reproduce as easily&#8230;

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/epis...ild-horse-roundups-why-are-they-conducted/64/

"BLM officers also use the fertility control agent PZP (porcine zonae pellucidae), a vaccine derived from pig cells. Captured mares can be injected at close range, or a dart gun can be used for those who are still free. The vaccine is effective 90 percent of the time and, according to a 2001 study by the UC Davis Center for Equine Health, does not produce any side effects in the horses. PZP, however, requires two injections, which can make using it on an entire herd a logistical challenge. The vaccine lasts for two years&#8230;.

&#8230;the whole mess with the horses goes back to all the negative publicity they have received in the past when they tried to put horses down or tried to round them up and some died as a result. Because of the public outcry, killing them doesn't seem like much of an option.

Look at some of these links:
http://wildhorseinvestigationteam.wordpress.com/blm-secret-plan-to-destroy-wild-horses/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/suzanne-roy/blm-roundup-to-save-wild-horses_b_3716764.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...0130619-dto,0,1687981.htmlstory#axzz2yaVSUWVS


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## wyoming2utah

.45 said:


> Why not simply arrest the man and let the jury decide? Why the massive show of force and stupidity?


Do we arrest people for not paying their bills? I bet a lot of businesses would love that idea...


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## Huntoholic

wyoming2utah said:


> Wait a minute&#8230;.how come it is only the BLM that is handling this poorly? You don't think Bundy is handling this poorly too? My heck, how many court cases does he have to lose before something needed to be done? What should they have done? Just let him continue to use the land without permission? Continue to send a butt load of cows on to the land without permission? At some point, they HAD to get the cows out of there&#8230;how else were they to do that? Just borrow Spock's beam-me-up transporter? And, like the links SWBuckmaster posted convey, the threat of force by those in opposition is REAL. Shouldn't the BLM and Federal Government protect those cowboys who are doing the round up?
> 
> What would you have recommended?


Bundy violated the law. Could have arrested him and his sons first to start with. Could hold him for 72hrs no charge. Could have removed the cattle in smaller operations over time in those 72 hrs. Everytime they get ready to remove a group of cattle, arrest the Bundy's first (they are trespassing still). In the time between arrests use the helicopter to push the cattle to staging areas.


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## Huntoholic

wyoming2utah said:


> Do we arrest people for not paying their bills? I bet a lot of businesses would love that idea...


They are arrested for repeated trespassing........ I think 20 years qualifies.


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## wyoming2utah

They are NOT trespassing….they are on PUBLIC ground. The cows are there illegally….not the Bundy's. IN essence, they are "arresting" the cows.


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## Huntoholic

Mr Muleskinner said:


> watch the video that they posted and see who the aggressor has been.
> 
> You are defending them. It is plain as day.........this has NOTHING to do with those who play by the rules. I don't see any of those people involved in this. All I see is a bunch of brainwashed freeloading welfare ranchers taking advantage of fellow Americans while waiving the flag of "liberty and freedom".


Because it has now been blown so far out of proportion. Would be far better to shut down for a couple of weeks everybody goes home (cause nothing is happening) then go in small quick removals, no fan fare.

And nope not defending them..........


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## Huntoholic

wyoming2utah said:


> They are NOT trespassing&#8230;.they are on PUBLIC ground. The cows are there illegally&#8230;.not the Bundy's. IN essence, they are "arresting" the cows.


They are the owners of the cows. If they were not violating any law, then the BLM would not have had to have gone to court to remove the cattle. What am I missing? If I leave my truck on BLM land does the BLM have to go to court to remove it?


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## Huntoholic

wyoming2utah said:


> They are NOT trespassing&#8230;.they are on PUBLIC ground. The cows are there illegally&#8230;.not the Bundy's. IN essence, they are "arresting" the cows.


If they are not trespassing, then arrest them for threatening a federal officer? That is the bases for the high presents right?


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## Fowlmouth

All we hear about are Bundy's cows being rounded up to be sold. There are brand inspectors on site that are finding other Ranchers cows there also. Those cows are being turned back over to those Ranchers. So, why is it only Bundy's cows that are going to be held and sold? Did the other Ranchers have proper grazing permits? Again very confusing.:-?

The situation there has the potential to explode. You now have militia men with weapons proclaiming to protect their constitutional rights. You have the Feds with their armed personel. It's going to take one stupid action by one stupid person on either side, and there will be a bigger mess then what is there now.


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## bowgy

Kevin D said:


> Nice!!
> 
> I pay my taxes too! I think I'm going to drill me an oil well or two somewhere on federal land!!


As long as you get your permits and pay your fees, yes you can drill oil wells on federal land. If not they will come and remove your stuff.

You didn't quote my whole post.

"Yes, if he is paying taxes he owns it as much as I do and all tax paying citizens.

Maybe more since he has made developments on the land and I haven't.

*Does he have a right to graze cattle without paying the fees? The courts have said no." *


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## bowgy

RandomElk16 said:


> I pay taxes too! Next time I am hunting public property, I am gonna paint the trees orange and kick everyone off my land!


There is a possibility to do that. If you have enough land to create a CWMU and that land surrounds a piece of federal land that federal land can be included in the CWMU.


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## Critter

bowgy said:


> As long as you get your permits and pay your fees, yes you can drill oil wells on federal land. If not they will come and remove your stuff.
> 
> You didn't quote my whole post.
> 
> "Yes, if he is paying taxes he owns it as much as I do and all tax paying citizens.
> 
> Maybe more since he has made developments on the land and I haven't.
> 
> *Does he have a right to graze cattle without paying the fees? The courts have said no." *


Perhaps we need to ask that since he didn't have the required permits to graze his cattle did he have the rights to make any developments on the land since the time that he hasn't been paying for the grazing rights. I know that I can not just go out into the wilds and start doing what I would consider improvements to the land without a permit to do so.


----------



## bowgy

Critter said:


> Perhaps we need to ask that since he didn't have the required permits to graze his cattle did he have the rights to make any developments on the land since the time that he hasn't been paying for the grazing rights. I know that I can not just go out into the wilds and start doing what I would consider improvements to the land without a permit to do so.


They have never quoted the dates that improvements were made, his daughter in her statement just said that over the 100+ years they have made, according to them, improvements such as water development and roads.

Now you would need permission and permits to do any improvements or developments but before the BLM I don't have any idea what the rules were. In the beginning there probably weren't any.

I think that is what Bundy's big issue is, they started out with no rules and the laws changed as time went along and at some point he figured the laws weren't constitutional and he didn't need to follow them.

It's kind of like we used to own private property but now we just rent it from the government by way of property tax. Don't pay the tax and they take your property, just like Bundy, don't pay the fees and they take his cattle.


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## RYsenTrout

wyoming2utah said:


> Wait a minute&#8230;.how come it is only the BLM that is handling this poorly? You don't think Bundy is handling this poorly too? My heck, how many court cases does he have to lose before something needed to be done? What should they have done? Just let him continue to use the land without permission? Continue to send a butt load of cows on to the land without permission? At some point, they HAD to get the cows out of there&#8230;how else were they to do that? Just borrow Spock's beam-me-up transporter? And, like the links SWBuckmaster posted convey, the threat of force by those in opposition is REAL. Shouldn't the BLM and Federal Government protect those cowboys who are doing the round up?
> 
> What would you have recommended?


Clive Bundy is an idiot and a fool. I am glad they are rounding up his cattle.

Having said all of that, I am glad there are people pushing the BLM back a little on this issue. You need to understand there are those you perceive to be on Clive Bundy's side that think he is an idiot, but are glad he is pushing back.

Anytime a federal bureaucratic agency shows up armed in a seemingly insignificant corner of America I am fine with a little push back simply on principle. I think it was you in an earlier post who said you would like to see them show up on forest lands and force the ATV guys off. Well I guess it is all fine and dandy if it is for your personal benefit. What happens when the anti-gun group gets loud enough and we lose our semi-auto weapons? There is a good chance I could suddenly become an illegal gun owner in my lifetime. Will I just hand over my guns? or will I become Clive Bundy-ish? Will I support aggressive Bureaucratic agencies at that point?

I don't think it is as black and white as you are making it out to be. Don't assume the "Bundy supporters" agree with what Clive Bundy is doing. There is a much bigger issue here than the cattle.


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## wyoming2utah

RYsenTrout said:


> What happens when the anti-gun group gets loud enough and we lose our semi-auto weapons? There is a good chance I could suddenly become an illegal gun owner in my lifetime. Will I just hand over my guns? or will I become Clive Bundy-ish? Will I support aggressive Bureaucratic agencies at that point?


I will&#8230;.because I believe in obeying the law regardless of whether or not I like the law. Instead of "fighting" the government by disobeying, why not "fight" the government by getting the law changed?

The big issue here doesn't have anything to do with cattle&#8230;I will grant you that. IT is all about state and county control of public land&#8230;.regardless, though, that doesn't make what Bundy or "his supporters" are doing, right!

Ironically, even the Cattlemen's Associations of Utah and Nevada don't agree with Bundy and have distanced themselves from him and his actions&#8230;

&#8230;.here is a good opinion article on the whole thing; it deals with the question of civil disobedience&#8230;.read it:
http://thesouthwestjournal.wordpress.com/2014/04/09/cliven-bundys-legacy-peace-or-rebellion/


----------



## RYsenTrout

wyoming2utah said:


> I will&#8230;.because I believe in obeying the law regardless of whether or not I like the law. Instead of "fighting" the government by disobeying, why not "fight" the government by getting the law changed?
> 
> The big issue here doesn't have anything to do with cattle&#8230;I will grant you that. IT is all about state and county control of public land&#8230;.regardless, though, that doesn't make what Bundy or "his supporters" are doing, right!
> 
> Ironically, even the Cattlemen's Associations of Utah and Nevada don't agree with Bundy and have distanced themselves from him and his actions...


If you agree with Bundy then you would probably rather get arrested than take off your shoes at the airport because you didn't have to last time you went.

I think you're probably right. The "push back" needs to come in having your voice heard or working with government agencies long before the need for armed men comes into play.


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## RandomElk16

It is easy to judge form the outside.

Huntoholic, you seem to think they should have done something different. They have been for 20 years. You don't know what type of threats the Bundy's have thrown out. Neither do I, but if they are there, which seems probable that they are, then they did the right thing. Lets take so many people that the situation will be in control, not out of control. You mentioned removing the cattle in portions. Go remove the first batch, and see if the second batch you get doesn't have some pissed ranchers with weapons waiting. They handled it fast and heavy. And the fact of the matter is, it was successful and no one was hurt.

Easy to make suggestions until you are an officer of a government organization who is dealing with these people. I don't want to see anyone harmed doing there job. If there ever was a time I was OK with the BLM "wasting" my money, it is in situations they feel that with less resources people could be harmed.


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## wyoming2utah

I like this quote from the article I posted above:
"Since the law changes with time and adjusts to new social and economic conditions, Cliven Bundy must realize that his family’s tradition of ranching is not a static state guaranteed forever. But he should not lose heart, the government can adapt and adjust to appeals for new laws. Mr. Bundy has shown himself to have great strength and stamina, as well as the ability to rally people to his cause. He could use those traits to do something good and lasting for many people, not just himself. Rather than inciting anarchy and violence, Bundy and his supporters could seek something reasonable and edifying for everyone. He could turn this ugly situation into a good one and leave a lasting legacy that promotes peace and healing. If his threatening language turns to action, or incites others to action, he will be culpable in any injury or harm that takes place, as will anyone else promoting such tactics. While the government is not free from critique and does not always do what is right, we do have ways of addressing it."


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## bowgy

I just got off the phone with someone I know in the Utah State government, when we were done with our business I asked him/her their thoughts on what's going on. Pertaining to the enticing violent actions, this person knows one of Bundy's sons real well and they claim the son said to come down and support them but please don't bring your guns. JFWIW

The Nevada Governor made a statement against the BLM actions, I guess if he was serious he could send in the National Guard to protect the citizens, but that has gone bad in the past also, thinking of Kent State in 1970.


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## mikevanwilder

Is there a way to read the BLMs report on Mr Bundy? From what I read on the news media sites and other sites, which is hard for me to believe anything the news reports, is that not only was he running his cattle on BLM land without permits, but the cattle were very destructive on the land all the way down to Lake Mead. 
I just want to get as much info as possible before I decide whos in the right here. Right now and it would take a big amount of info for me to side with Mr. Bundy. 
As for the amount of officers and the way they have gone about this, it seems perfectly logical to me. Come on 20+ years of being asked to comply by not just BLM but multiple courts. Im guessing he made threats to the BLM and that is why this amount of presence was needed. And judging by the videos the protesters keep posting seem maybe they might need more. 
I don't get the my ancestors were here long before the government bit. That would mean any native American can do whatever they please wherever they please because their ancestors were here first. But they cant because laws were put in place for safety and in this case the protection of the land. I can tell you a lot of people would feel a lot different had this happened on a unit they hunt. But because its in the desert most people don't see the bad.


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## bowgy

Moapa town council, one guys view.


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## bowgy

I think some are feeling this way.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

By _Martin Niemöller_


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## Mr Muleskinner

bowgy said:


> Moapa town council, one guys view.


Heart felt approach for sure. He makes a lot of assumptions and uses some good scare tactics. I would like to know where he got the info that a man was told to shoot anybody that goes on the land. That was a pretty strong line of bs me thinketh. I also happen to like the ruffed grouse and the indian paint brush. Did God not also make them? Cattle can do just fine on a ranch. Grazing has it's place too as long as the permits are current and valid. I haven't heard of any new laws that were just passed to send poor Clive and his boys to the poor house just yet.

Things change in this world and people need to learn to adapt with it. Cattle ranchers are no different. I have had to adapt my business and in doing so some things cost more to produce. Beef is a product. If there is demand there will be supply from somewhere. Adapt or find another business. Sorry.


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## mikevanwilder

I could see this uproar being just if Mr. Bundy was getting his cattle taken without any sort of warning or notice from the government. 
I do think this issue is way bigger than it needed to be but its Bundys fault no one elses.


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## PBH

Utah -- pack your ass and go back home! (2:15)

While I don't agree with much that Tom Collins said, I agree with some!

http://www.mynews3.com/content/video/default.aspx?videoId=5035986&navCatId=25504


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## bowgy

mikevanwilder said:


> I could see this uproar being just if Mr. Bundy was getting his cattle taken without any sort of warning or notice from the government.
> I do think this issue is way bigger than it needed to be but its Bundys fault no one elses.


I agree that this is because Bundy did not follow the law but I think it has gotten bigger than anyone thought, I hope it can be settled without anyone getting hurt.

Being both in business for many years and past military training plus just plain old school of hard knocks, I have learned that when you kick a hornets nest it is best to back off and let things settle down and go back in a different way, cut my losses and change tactics. But that's just me.


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## Mr Muleskinner

I find it ironic that they are in the Moapa town haul. I wonder how many Paiute Indians feel like burning that building to the ground.


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## mikevanwilder

bowgy said:


> I agree that this is because Bundy did not follow the law but I think it has gotten bigger than anyone thought, I hope it can be settled without anyone getting hurt.
> 
> Being both in business for many years and past military training plus just plain old school of hard knocks, I have learned that when you kick a hornets nest it is best to back off and let things settle down and go back in a different way, cut my losses and change tactics. But that's just me.


I'm in law enforcement and I have been trying to be unbiased toward that stance. But I cannot for the life of me find any reason to feel for this man. I do feel for the rangers and any other law enforcement involved and for the ranchers who were obeying the law and have been pulled into this mess. Which I believe they are doing their best to get the cattle back that belongs to those obeying the laws.
It is a crappy situation going on down there and I hope it will get resolved without injury or worse to either party.


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## mikevanwilder

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I find it ironic that they are in the Moapa town haul. I wonder how many Paiute Indians feel like burning that building to the ground.


 I thought that same thing!


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## bowgy

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I find it ironic that they are in the Moapa town haul. I wonder how many Paiute Indians feel like burning that building to the ground.


They probably have in the past;-)


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## Fowlmouth

I'm still confused with this whole mess. Someone please explain to me why the BLM allowed Bundy to trespass on federal land for 20 years, and now all of the sudden it is a problem and he has to go? Why wasn't this taken care of immediately 20 years ago? Or, I should ask why has it taken 20 years to get to this point?


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## Mr Muleskinner

one other thing..........I thought that unbranded cattle on federal land were free for the taking. I am headed down to Vegas next week. I am going to have to look into the auction of these cattle. Would love to have me some Bundy Beef. I already paid for part of it. Might as well have a burger or two.


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## bowgy

A little bit from the BLM side, trying to protect range for ranchers.

RENO, Nev. (AP) - Wild-horse fertility control and sage-grouse habitat conservation are among top priorities in the proposed $1.1 billion budget for the federal Bureau of Land Management.
President Barack Obama's request for the 2015 fiscal year calls for an increase of $2.8 million in funding for the agency's wild horse and burro program, and would allow it to continue studies to develop more effective contraceptive drugs and techniques.
The BLM has pledged to step up the use of fertility control as an alternative to controversial roundups of what it calls overpopulated mustang herds on U.S. rangelands in the West.
If approved by Congress, the request would further the BLM's implementation of recommendations made by an independent panel of the National Academy of Sciences in 2013, agency officials said.
In a report highly critical of the BLM, the panel said the agency should invest in widespread fertility control of the mustangs instead of spending millions to house them.
It concluded the BLM's removal of nearly 100,000 horses from the Western range over the past decade is probably having the opposite effect of its intention to ease ecological damage and reduce overpopulated herds.
The BLM treated about 1,000 mares in 2012 but only about half that last year, records show, far short of the annual goal of 2,000 then-BLM Director Bob Abbey announced in 2011.
Anne Novak of California-based Protect Mustangs questioned the value of fertility control and called on Congress to embrace "holistic" land management by keeping mustangs on the range to rebuild soil and reverse desertification. She thinks the agency's horse roundups have caused the herds to have an increased birthrate.
"Throwing more drugs, sterilizations and pesticides on native wild horses is a backwards approach," Novak said. "It's time to help our American wild horses contribute to the thriving natural balance of the ecosystem using fresh science."
*The budget also seeks to maintain funding for the BLM's initiative to conserve sage-grouse habitat across the West to avoid the bird's listing as an endangered or threatened species. The agency plans to complete the plan in the upcoming fiscal year. Such a listing would have economic consequences for ranching, mining and alternative energy development across large swaths of land.*
Another top budget priority is authorization of a nonprofit foundation to help provide the BLM with new ways to work with the public on landscapes and programs, including wild horse and burro management.
"The BLM carries a great responsibility in its stewardship of roughly 10 percent of the nation's land," BLM Principal Deputy Director Neil Kornze said in a statement. "We strive each day to strike the right balance under our multiple use and sustained yield mandate."
Kornze testified on the budget at a hearing Friday before the House Subcommittee on Interior, Environment and Related Agencies.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Fowlmouth said:


> I'm still confused with this whole mess. Someone please explain to me why the BLM allowed Bundy to trespass on federal land for 20 years, and now all of the sudden it is a problem and he has to go? Why wasn't this taken care of immediately 20 years ago? Or, I should ask why has it taken 20 years to get to this point?


Everything I have read is that they have tried to get him to remove them for the past twenty years and he has refused. He also threatened violence to anybody that tried to take his cattle. His threats are a big reason for the show of force.


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## bowgy

Mr Muleskinner said:


> one other thing..........I thought that unbranded cattle on federal land were free for the taking. I am headed down to Vegas next week. I am going to have to look into the auction of these cattle. Would love to have me some Bundy Beef. I already paid for part of it. Might as well have a burger or two.


I will bet most are branded, that is why the brand inspectors are down there. Bundy has been ranching for a lot of years and if I remember right cattle are hard to sell if not properly marked.


----------



## Critter

Fowlmouth said:


> I'm still confused with this whole mess. Someone please explain to me why the BLM allowed Bundy to trespass on federal land for 20 years, and now all of the sudden it is a problem and he has to go? Why wasn't this taken care of immediately 20 years ago? Or, I should ask why has it taken 20 years to get to this point?


From what I have read it has just taken this long to get to this point. Between the years that he didn't pay his fees and the court cases against him it just takes a while.


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## Mr Muleskinner

I have read that many are not branded and that most of Bundy's are not and that they get burned before heading to market. He used to have legal rights to graze 150 head and that his actual number of cattle may be closer to 1000. It is one of the reasons that there is such a big discrepancy in what the BLM is saying is owed and Bundy says he owes and would pay Clark County. The brand inspectors have also been down there so that legal cattle can be returned to their rightful owners. Free grazing unbranded cattle has been done for decades.


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## mikevanwilder

Fowlmouth said:


> I'm still confused with this whole mess. Someone please explain to me why the BLM allowed Bundy to trespass on federal land for 20 years, and now all of the sudden it is a problem and he has to go? Why wasn't this taken care of immediately 20 years ago? Or, I should ask why has it taken 20 years to get to this point?


This is why I don't feel bad for him. I believe they gave him a lot of leanancy to remove his cattle. I did a little research and all I can find is a ruling would come down and he would fight it or ignore it and after 20 years a US judge finally approved the confiscation of any cattle that was illegally trespassing on federal land. 
The thing is I would like to see the actual report/reports that the BLM took to the courts. The evidence would be nice to see. On the BLM site all it shows is the Court decisions and a basic overview of the facts. I want to know what damage the cattle has caused because that to me seems worse than just not paying for fees. But it sounds like he was letting his cattle run free not only on the land allotment he was supposed to be paying for but also on land that wasn't supposed to be grazed on, clear into the National Rec area of Lake Mead.
It just makes me mad that he thinks hes above the law and that he let his cattle damage our lands. 
Again I would like to see the information given to the court. It should be public record right?


----------



## bowgy

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I have read that many are not branded and that most of Bundy's are not and that they get burned before heading to market. He used to have legal rights to graze 150 head and that his actual number of cattle may be closer to 1000. It is one of the reasons that there is such a big discrepancy in what the BLM is saying is owed and Bundy says he owes and would pay Clark County. The brand inspectors have also been down there so that legal cattle can be returned to their rightful owners. Free grazing unbranded cattle has been done for decades.


Maybe that is the difference between Bundy claiming 500 and BLM claiming over 900, possibly 500 branded and 500 unbranded. Also it has been mentioned that a AUM or AMU, animal unit measure is 1 cow, steer or bull and also 1 cow and its calf is considered one animal unit. So 500 cows and 500 calves would be 1000 head of cattle but only 500 animal units. I guess that is one possibility.


----------



## bowgy

mikevanwilder said:


> This is why I don't feel bad for him. I believe they gave him a lot of leanancy to remove his cattle. I did a little research and all I can find is a ruling would come down and he would fight it or ignore it and after 20 years a US judge finally approved the confiscation of any cattle that was illegally trespassing on federal land.
> The thing is I would like to see the actual report/reports that the BLM took to the courts. The evidence would be nice to see. On the BLM site all it shows is the Court decisions and a basic overview of the facts. I want to know what damage the cattle has caused because that to me seems worse than just not paying for fees. But it sounds like he was letting his cattle run free not only on the land allotment he was supposed to be paying for but also on land that wasn't supposed to be grazed on, clear into the National Rec area of Lake Mead.
> It just makes me mad that he thinks hes above the law and that he let his cattle damage our lands.
> Again I would like to see the information given to the court. It should be public record right?


Nevada might be a "fence out" state, if there are no fences the cows go where they want if the owner doesn't control them.

Also it said he was running them year round, usually the permits are for a certain time of year depending upon the range. They need to be removed part of the year for the habitat to regrow. And this can vary year to year depending upon the weather. The BLM or Forest Service can request the animals be removed earlier if there is range forage issues.


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## Mr Muleskinner

bowgy said:


> Maybe that is the difference between Bundy claiming 500 and BLM claiming over 900, possibly 500 branded and 500 unbranded. Also it has been mentioned that a AUM or AMU, animal unit measure is 1 cow, steer or bull and also 1 cow and its calf is considered one animal unit. So 500 cows and 500 calves would be 1000 head of cattle but only 500 animal units. I guess that is one possibility.


Yea its a mess. About like trying to figure out the truths vs BS with Obamacare. For every one truth there are 10 non-truths, 15 exaggerations and 20 lies.


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## bowgy

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Yea its a mess. About like trying to figure out the truths vs BS with Obamacare. For every one truth there are 10 non-truths, 15 exaggerations and 20 lies.


I think Bundy is finding out it is easier to play by the rules, it sucks if you can't make the rules or change the rules, but if you want to play the game it is easier to play by the rules until you can convince the rule makers to change them the way you want them.

Kind of like hunting in Utah.;-)


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## bowgy

BLM to Cease Bundy Ranch Operation

From the director of the BLM, Neil Kornze:
"As we have said from the beginning of the gather to remove illegal cattle from federal land consistent with court orders, a safe and peaceful operation is our number one priority. After one week, we have made progress in enforcing two recent court orders to remove the trespass cattle from public lands that belong to all Americans.
"Based on information about conditions on the ground, and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public.
"We ask that all parties in the area remain peaceful and law-abiding as the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service work to end the operation in an orderly manner.
Ranching has always been an important part of our nation's heritage and continues throughout the West on public lands that belong to all Americans. This is a matter of fairness and equity, and we remain disappointed that Cliven Bundy continues to not comply with the same laws that 16,000 public lands ranchers do every year. After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially."​


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## #1DEER 1-I

bowgy said:


> BLM to Cease Bundy Ranch Operation
> 
> From the director of the BLM, Neil Kornze:
> "As we have said from the beginning of the gather to remove illegal cattle from federal land consistent with court orders, a safe and peaceful operation is our number one priority. After one week, we have made progress in enforcing two recent court orders to remove the trespass cattle from public lands that belong to all Americans.
> "Based on information about conditions on the ground, and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public.
> "We ask that all parties in the area remain peaceful and law-abiding as the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service work to end the operation in an orderly manner.
> Ranching has always been an important part of our nation's heritage and continues throughout the West on public lands that belong to all Americans. This is a matter of fairness and equity, and we remain disappointed that Cliven Bundy continues to not comply with the same laws that 16,000 public lands ranchers do every year. After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially."​


I don't know if this was the right move if Bundy continues not to comply.


----------



## Fowlmouth

The bottom line is that many protesters showed up in force, militia included. If one side or the other wouldn't have backed down there probably would have been injuries or deaths. I don't believe this is the end of the fight. Things will settle down, people will dispurse and the work will probably continue at a later time. I think the BLM recognized safety for both sides and that is why they cleared out.

I watched several videos on Youtube (info wars) listening to Bundy and his sons to get their side of the story. It is interesting listening to something other than the mainstream media. The whole mess is still confusing.:?


----------



## bowgy

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I don't know if this was the right move if Bundy continues not to comply.


When Bundy stopped paying the BLM he sent his fees to the state of Nevada, after a while they didn't know what to do with them so they stopped accepting them.

I think if Nevada would accept the fees and make an agreement with the BLM this could have been avoided. I don't know since it has gone on for so many years.

Some are claiming it is the news that Harry Ried making deals with China for a solar farm coming out is what caused the BLM to back off.


----------



## bowgy

*"After consultations with the rancher's family, the bureau decided to release the cattle it had rounded up, and the crowd began to disperse."*

Wow! I wonder what that cost us?:?


----------



## Critter

I think that the cost is minimal when you consider that no one was hurt during the last week that this has been going on. 


The news report that I read said;
"After consultations with the rancher's family, the bureau decided to release the cattle it had rounded up, and the crowd began to disperse."

I would be willing to bet that both sides came to a decision to end it, whether by paying the fees or agreeing to something else that may never become public.


----------



## Springville Shooter

I'm glad no one got hurt, but unless there are details that I don't know, Cliven is nothing but a common criminal, thieving from society and I hope they make an example out of him. Screw the cows.....throw the book at the SOB and lock him up for 20 years or so. His grand standing could have gotten a lot of people killed. Until I get info that convinces me otherwise, I still blame him. I wonder how many so called militia members were really ready to die over this? Because it could have come to that very easily. Let's get on obtaining a warrant for Cliven and get him in Federal custody where he belongs.------SS


----------



## The Naturalist

So if I don't pay the taxes on my property, and the IRS comes to take my home, but can get enough friends armed with weapons, I can get the Feds to back down? :?

Actually, I think the Government learned from Waco that crazy people can cause harm to a lot of innocent people that are wondering how in the heck did I get in this situation?! I think it was very wise to back down for now and try another approach.
What that approach would be I'm not sure...it sounds like they have been trying for 20+ years. They should arrest him as SS suggested, but I don't know if that would work either.


----------



## swbuckmaster

I heard today that its not about the turtles. Harry Reed and China want to put a solar plant on that property. 
Im not sure if that's true or not. Time will tell


----------



## Huntoholic

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Everything I have read is that they have tried to get him to remove them for the past twenty years and he has refused. He also threatened violence to anybody that tried to take his cattle. His threats are a big reason for the show of force.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but threatening a Federal Agent is a crime. So why has he not been arrested for that? I would think it would be a federal crime and a felony.

I wish someone would explain this part........


----------



## Huntoholic

RandomElk16 said:


> It is easy to judge form the outside.
> 
> Huntoholic, you seem to think they should have done something different. They have been for 20 years. You don't know what type of threats the Bundy's have thrown out. Neither do I, but if they are there, which seems probable that they are, then they did the right thing. Lets take so many people that the situation will be in control, not out of control. You mentioned removing the cattle in portions. Go remove the first batch, and see if the second batch you get doesn't have some pissed ranchers with weapons waiting. They handled it fast and heavy. And the fact of the matter is, it was successful and no one was hurt.
> 
> Easy to make suggestions until you are an officer of a government organization who is dealing with these people. I don't want to see anyone harmed doing there job. If there ever was a time I was OK with the BLM "wasting" my money, it is in situations they feel that with less resources people could be harmed.


You are right, it is easy to be armchair quarterback. 
But I also know how hard it is at times to work within the system. If you do not have the money the majority of time you will fail. Period. I have seen how the current system works. Reason has no part in the equation.

People say things in the heat of the moment. Most times some pretty dumb things. If the threats are/were valid, I think he could have been charged. Maybe I'm wrong and this will be a learning moment for me. My son is an officer, so believe me when I say I do not want anybody hurt. I also worry about the lone individual agent working by themselves long after this current problem goes away. I always thought it sad when an agent can not enough come into camp and talk or give simple instructions/ education.


----------



## martymcfly73

swbuckmaster said:


> I heard today that its not about the turtles. Harry Reed and China want to put a solar plant on that property.
> Im not sure if that's true or not. Time will tell


I just read an article on the blaze that said that deal was dead in June of 2013.


----------



## hemionus

http://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2014/04/13/kilter-bundy-won-america-lost/#.U0sDO8RDspk

Best article on the situation I have seen.


----------



## Dunkem

swbuckmaster said:


> I heard today that its not about the turtles. Harry Reed and China want to put a solar plant on that property.
> Im not sure if that's true or not. Time will tell


Probobly true,hope he gets pieces of broken China stuck in his craw!


----------



## Springville Shooter

Remember....no one has to take sides here. Looking more and more like both sides were wrong. I guarantee that Cliven is wrong by the facts we know. Likely the Government is wrong as well. Sad thing is that we are getting screwed by both parties at this point with no solution in sight. Who is going to be held accountable to the tax payers? Cliven owes us a million or so and the Feds just wasted a couple million more playing catch and release with a bunch of cows. I'm glad no one got killed, but accountability is needed here on all parts. Start by throwing Cliven in the slammer.-------SS


----------



## hondodawg

So far this is the best article I've found explaining it.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch

Hope the link works

I still would like to know how many head he was permitted before 1993 BLM cuts.

Number of ranchers who lost or sold out grazing permits in the area.

In 1994 after BLM revoked/cancelled the 150 permits for non payment. Was the permits allowed to be purchased by other ranchers.

Who made the desert tortoise boundaries. It's known that a big donor to Harry Reid had boundaries changed for donors benefit.

How Harry Reid's friend and assistant ended up in charge of BLM with zero land managing experience.

This is just several


----------



## RandomElk16

Just came across "Why you should be sympathetic toward Cliven Bundy"

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/04/why-you-should-be-sympathetic-toward-cliven-bundy.php

Not my view, just sharing...


----------



## Trooper

Mr Muleskinner said:


> one other thing..........I thought that unbranded cattle on federal land were free for the taking. I am headed down to Vegas next week. I am going to have to look into the auction of these cattle. Would love to have me some Bundy Beef. I already paid for part of it. Might as well have a burger or two.


I was thinking this same thing... what stops someone from knocking one of those unbranded steers down? Does anyone have the relevant statute?


----------



## Huntoholic

Trooper said:


> I was thinking this same thing... what stops someone from knocking one of those unbranded steers down? Does anyone have the relevant statute?


http://le.utah.gov/UtahCode/section.jsp?code=4-25

Title 4, Chapter 25.

Looks pretty clear how to address


----------



## bowgy

Another interesting video. They are coming out of the woodwork. Don't know if they help clear up or muddy the waters more. It was just emailed to me.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

bowgy said:


> Another interesting video. They are coming out of the woodwork. Don't know if they help clear up or muddy the waters more. It was just emailed to me.


I watched the entire clip.

"Clive Bundy almost started the second American Revolution". Those words over the top of the stormy weather and hellfire was quite dramatic.........

not a single mention of Bundy not paying his fair share for the past 25 years.

Once I realized it was from Storm Clouds Gathering it summed up why. It is an Anarcho-Capatalism site that is anti-government of ANY sort. A Libertarian Anarchy movement that prefers total elimination of the state in favor of individual sovereignty.

The voice you hear is Aaron Hawkins who runs SCGnews.com

Here is some more about this guy. He is a piece of work.

http://musicians4freedom.com/featur...october-2012-featured-activist-aaron-hawkins/


----------



## GaryFish

I'm still wondering why no mention of Bundy not paying his grazing fees, nor that he figured that the 600,000 acres of BLM lands it took to support his 300 cattle, were HIS lands. His base property of his own ranch is only 80 acres. So, yea. Makes plenty of sense.

But I'll hand it to the black-helicopter/tinfoil hat crowd - they worked media, social media, and alternative media into controlling the "information" river on this one. And BLM failed miserably.


----------



## Huntoholic

I'm still wondering why he has not been arrested for threatening a federal agent?


----------



## MKP

Do you want to be the guy that slaps the cuffs on him when he's surrounded by those psychos? I sure wouldn't.


----------



## Huntoholic

I guess he never leaves the ranch? Never goes to court? Never goes to "town"?


----------



## .45

Huntoholic said:


> I'm still wondering why he has not been arrested for threatening a federal agent?


 Remember? The BLM was there to arrest only the cattle, I wonder if they read them their cattle rights??:?


----------



## .45

MKP said:


> Do you want to be the guy that slaps the cuffs on him when he's surrounded by those psychos? I sure wouldn't.


 Exactly !! The BLM is full of psycho's.


----------



## bowgy

I don't know how Bundy got away with it for so many years, I pay over $10,000 a year for my government leases and I wouldn't dare go one year without paying them. Mine aren't grazing leases but still the same situation.

Not that I agree that Bundy should get away without paying the leases but when they round up 12 million illegal aliens and deport them then I will worry about 900 head of cattle on 6000+ acres of desert land.


----------



## bowgy

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I watched the entire clip.
> 
> "Clive Bundy almost started the second American Revolution". Those words over the top of the stormy weather and hellfire was quite dramatic.........
> 
> not a single mention of Bundy not paying his fair share for the past 25 years.
> 
> Once I realized it was from Storm Clouds Gathering it summed up why. It is an Anarcho-Capatalism site that is anti-government of ANY sort. A Libertarian Anarchy movement that prefers total elimination of the state in favor of individual sovereignty.
> 
> The voice you hear is Aaron Hawkins who runs SCGnews.com
> 
> Here is some more about this guy. He is a piece of work.
> 
> http://musicians4freedom.com/featur...october-2012-featured-activist-aaron-hawkins/


I could tell it was Pro Bundy but what I got out of it was to proof check what you see or read on the internet. He talks about disproving a couple of the claims and tries to prove one of the many claims but still gives advice to check it out for yourself. And asking for the law to look into the claim.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Not Pro Bundy.......anti-gov. I know it is a fine line but there is a difference. I started to check his claims out myself and what you will find is dead end roads just like all of his other videos. SCG is such extreme libertarian that it is not worth delving into. The best you will get is half truths.


----------



## riptheirlips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I watched the entire clip.
> 
> "Clive Bundy almost started the second American Revolution". Those words over the top of the stormy weather and hellfire was quite dramatic.........
> 
> not a single mention of Bundy not paying his fair share for the past 25 years.
> 
> Once I realized it was from Storm Clouds Gathering it summed up why. It is an Anarcho-Capatalism site that is anti-government of ANY sort. A Libertarian Anarchy movement that prefers total elimination of the state in favor of individual sovereignty.
> 
> The voice you hear is Aaron Hawkins who runs SCGnews.com
> 
> Here is some more about this guy. He is a piece of work.
> 
> http://musicians4freedom.com/featur...october-2012-featured-activist-aaron-hawkins/


So because it is Aaron Hawkins who you don't care for makes it ok for Harry Reid to line his pockets with taxpayers money? or let a China company come in? Why not an American company. Just because this Aaron guy is against government does not make it ok for Harry Reid to screw America>


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Do your research. The reid thing is hogwash. Different land. Come on people.

Gotta admit RIP I got a good laugh out of that.


----------



## RandomElk16

riptheirlips said:


> or let a China company come in?


Chinese company*


----------



## bowgy

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Do your research. The reid thing is hogwash. Different land. Come on people.
> 
> Gotta admit RIP I got a good laugh out of that.


Do you have some links besides his BLM site?


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

I have read through about 1000 different links Bowgy. Claims that can not be confirmed are discarded as they should be. Other than that I have a relative that works for Clark County Zoning and Planning. We have talked at length about it. One reason that the local government never stepped in is because Bundy has no legal claim. The militia groups and anti-gov propaganda sites are going to do what they do regardless. Find me something, anything that SCG post that is not false propaganda intended to lead people against the US gov. Good luck with that. That site has been proven wrong so many times on specific claims it is a joke.

Of all of the people in the government that I despise Reid is on the top of my list but these claims are just not accurate. If it were true you would not just be hearing from some underground extremist website that exists solely on spreading fear.

Bundy is an anti-fed welfare rancher that owes $1,000,000 to the American Taxpayer. He has about 1000 head of cattle and an 80 acre ranch and a melon farm. Any body that wants to support him has that right. People need to do their own research though. If there is something a person wants to believe they can find it out there somewhere.

Here is one:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp


----------



## lifes short

I hope the folks that ancestors that had sheep leases on the units we now have wild sheep on don't think they ought to have the right to put their sheep back on the Timpanogas, Flaming Gorge, Uinta, San Rafael, etc. areas again. If Bundy can run his animals without being legal why can't they? Just my thought on this mess.


----------



## LostLouisianian

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I have read through about 1000 different links Bowgy. Claims that can not be confirmed are discarded as they should be. Other than that I have a relative that works for Clark County Zoning and Planning. We have talked at length about it. One reason that the local government never stepped in is because Bundy has no legal claim. The militia groups and anti-gov propaganda sites are going to do what they do regardless. Find me something, anything that SCG post that is not false propaganda intended to lead people against the US gov. Good luck with that. That site has been proven wrong so many times on specific claims it is a joke.
> 
> Of all of the people in the government that I despise Reid is on the top of my list but these claims are just not accurate. If it were true you would not just be hearing from some underground extremist website that exists solely on spreading fear.
> 
> Bundy is an anti-fed welfare rancher that owes $1,000,000 to the American Taxpayer. He has about 1000 head of cattle and an 80 acre ranch and a melon farm. Any body that wants to support him has that right. People need to do their own research though. If there is something a person wants to believe they can find it out there somewhere.
> 
> Here is one:
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp


First off, snopes has been caught stretching the truth more than once. Secondly if this is about back pay to the US Government, what about taking half of Berkshire Hathaway from Warren Buffet since he is refusing to pay over a billion in back taxes. What about every other single person out there who owes back taxes of some sort and is refusing to pay. Do we take their homes and business away too? If no, then why just Bundy. Your arguments hold no water. And yes this is about the Chinese solar deal otherwise why has it now been taken off the BLM website. Why has it also been scrubbed off of Google cache. When you can logically and factually explain that, then you may have a leg to stand on over your argument that this isn't about the Chicom solar project.


----------



## Critter

LostLouisianian said:


> First off, snopes has been caught stretching the truth more than once. Secondly if this is about back pay to the US Government, what about taking half of Berkshire Hathaway from Warren Buffet since he is refusing to pay over a billion in back taxes. What about every other single person out there who owes back taxes of some sort and is refusing to pay. Do we take their homes and business away too? If no, then why just Bundy. Your arguments hold no water. And yes this is about the Chinese solar deal otherwise why has it now been taken off the BLM website. Why has it also been scrubbed off of Google cache. When you can logically and factually explain that, then you may have a leg to stand on over your argument that this isn't about the Chicom solar project.


This problem has been going on for over 20 years now with a number of court cases all settled in the BLM's favor. As for the rest of the problem people or companies that you mentioned perhaps there are pending court cases or judgments that we don't know about.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

People go out of their way to bring up others that have nothing to do with Bundy. Change the subject and deflect. Doesn't do much for the topic at hand but makes for more debate. If a person wants to support they can find a way to justify it. Doesn't make Bundy right either way.

I can bring up a ton of websites and links. Those that support him stealing from the American taxpayer are going to regardless. Two wrongs don't make a right though. What in the hell does Berkshire Hathaway have to do with Bundy and the BLM? Nothing.

Sounds like my kids justifying a poor decision because somebody else did it.


----------



## GaryFish

Actually LostLouisiana, they do. I filed an extension on my state taxes last year. Paid them on time. But when I paid them, the system at the tax commission had not included the interest owed on the taxes. An amount around $100. I asked if there were any interest or penalties or anything, and they said I'd get something in the mail. The next piece of mail was a notice that they had slapped a tax lien on my house, effectively taking my house. Over $100 that I offered to pay. So yea, it does happen. 

I don't know the specifics on the Bundy case, as I've just not had time to do the adequate research on it. I know in general, that in grazing-heavy Field Offices, permit holders do get their permits stripped if they don't pay their fees, file their grazing plans, and do as they are contracted to do. 

The other thing, and this goes with grazing on Public Lands - these lands are designated for multiple uses. And grazing is one of those, as is energy development, recreation, fluid minerals, wildlife, and mining. And increase or addition of any one of these uses has impacts on the others. In this region of Nevada, grazing forage is so sparse, that development of a solar energy facility would certainly have an impact. And having been part of several solar projects, far more goes into it than trying to screw some rancher. Location is everything - proximity to transmission lines, highways, direct sunlight (not in mountain shadows), presence of regional haze, typical cloud cover, etc.... All these variables carry far more weight in the site selection process than singling out some rancher's allotment out of spite.


----------



## rukus

The term "welfare rancher" is used a lot by individuals on this sight, and I have got to ask. What is the difference between a rancher paying for grazing rights on public land and a business corporation moving into an area and working a lower tax deal with the government (Which is done almost all of the time)? Personally, I don't see much difference between the two since they are both subsidized by the government in one way or another.

I realize that Bundy is an exception to this because he has not paid for his grazing rights in quite a while.


----------



## Huntoholic

GaryFish said:


> Location is everything - proximity to transmission lines, highways, direct sunlight (not in mountain shadows), presence of regional haze, typical cloud cover, etc.... All these variables carry far more weight in the site selection process than singling out some rancher's allotment out of spite.


So what you are really saying is the people of California are more important then one lone rancher who has been in the same spot for over a 100 years.......

And what is more important about site selection is keeping the cost down to justify using it.


----------



## RandomElk16

Huntoholic said:


> So what you are really saying is the people of California are more important then one lone rancher who has been in the same spot for over a 100 years.......
> 
> And what is more important about site selection is keeping the cost down to justify using it.


I think what he is saying is that rancher, who owns less land than me but has more cattle than his own land can support and doesn't pay his taxes adhere to court rulings and refuses to remove his cattle... I think he is saying that guy is less important than anyone who follows the rules. No reason to take a criminal who doesn't even own the land into consideration.

You keep missing the fact he is a full blown criminal! Mooching off you, me, the state of Nevada, and even wildlife... All that for no fee, and for profit!


----------



## rukus

Mr Muleskinner said:


> People go out of their way to bring up others that have nothing to do with Bundy......... What in the hell does Berkshire Hathaway have to do with Bundy and the BLM? Nothing.


For me, the example of Berkshire Hathaway is a good one. Why has this issue with Bundy all of the sudden become so important that we had a **** war zone established between the Bundy clan and the BLM boys in Southern Nevada. All the while we have others, Berkshire Hathaway, sitting fat and happy around the dinner table yet they also owe just as much or many times more to the government.

Something tells me there is a lot more to this than Bundy owing some money to the government. Sure we could label it as a matter of principal, but I highly doubt that is the case when it comes to the fat cats in Washington.


----------



## GaryFish

History of use of Public Lands is no guarantee of future use. He can do all he wants with his private lands. But as I understand it (which I admit is a very limited understanding), Bundy broke the terms of his contractual agreement in his grazing permit, and therefore forfeits his privilege to graze his cows on this allotment. And giving in to other multiple uses of Public Lands is part of the package of grazing on Public Lands. It is part of the reason the lease fees are so obscenely low for grazing on Public Lands. If you play the history of use card here, it needs to include the history of non-compliance with the contract he signed. Or putting it in cowboy terms, he broke his word.


----------



## rukus

RandomElk16 said:


> I think what he is saying is that rancher, who owns less land than me but has more cattle than his own land can support and doesn't pay his taxes adhere to court rulings and refuses to remove his cattle... I think he is saying that guy is less important than anyone who follows the rules. No reason to take a criminal who doesn't even own the land into consideration.
> 
> You keep missing the fact he is a full blown criminal! Mooching off you, me, the state of Nevada, and even wildlife... All that for no fee, and for profit!


It's not just Bundy that this would affect. If I am not mistaken, there are several ranchers that share that range and are paying fees. What do you have to say to them?


----------



## Trooper

Huntoholic said:


> http://le.utah.gov/UtahCode/section.jsp?code=4-25
> 
> Title 4, Chapter 25.
> 
> Looks pretty clear how to address


It's Nevada.


----------



## wyoming2utah

LostLouisianian said:


> First off, snopes has been caught stretching the truth more than once. Secondly if this is about back pay to the US Government, what about taking half of Berkshire Hathaway from Warren Buffet since he is refusing to pay over a billion in back taxes. What about every other single person out there who owes back taxes of some sort and is refusing to pay. Do we take their homes and business away too? If no, then why just Bundy. Your arguments hold no water. And yes this is about the Chinese solar deal otherwise why has it now been taken off the BLM website. Why has it also been scrubbed off of Google cache. When you can logically and factually explain that, then you may have a leg to stand on over your argument that this isn't about the Chicom solar project.


sorry, but the Harry Reid conspiracy theory is hogwash:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/14/spurious-cattle-conspiracy-dodges-facts-but-sti/198880

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch

http://aattp.org/glenn-becks-the-blaze-admits-cliven-bundy-is-lying-and-breaking-the-law/

Come on you guys&#8230;.this conspiracy theory is nothing more than tea-party John Birchers trying to get the right-winged nutsos out in force&#8230;!


----------



## RandomElk16

rukus said:


> For me, the example of Berkshire Hathaway is a good one. Why has this issue with Bundy all of the sudden become so important that we had a **** war zone established between the Bundy clan and the BLM boys in Southern Nevada. All the while we have others, Berkshire Hathaway, sitting fat and happy around the dinner table yet they also owe just as much or many times more to the government.
> 
> Something tells me there is a lot more to this than Bundy owing some money to the government. Sure we could label it as a matter of principal, but I highly doubt that is the case when it comes to the fat cats in Washington.


http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...-buffett-avoids-paying-millions-in-taxes.aspx


----------



## RandomElk16

rukus said:


> It's not just Bundy that this would affect. If I am not mistaken, there are several ranchers that share that range and are paying fees. What do you have to say to them?


Still riding on the hogwash they keep disproving. My post was in direct reply to your post that said "one lone rancher". Like he was this sad stray dog that doesn't get fed and has sarah mclachlan playing when he walks around...


----------



## rukus

Random - I wasn't the one that brought up "lone rancher" and no I am not buying into the Harry Reid "hogwash". I simply am not going to count out the possibility that it could be credible. You live in the clouds if you don't think Harry Reid would try and pull a stunt like this and then have the media turn their heads in an effort to clear him of any wrong doing.


----------



## Huntoholic

RandomElk16 said:


> I think what he is saying is that rancher, who owns less land than me but has more cattle than his own land can support and doesn't pay his taxes adhere to court rulings and refuses to remove his cattle... I think he is saying that guy is less important than anyone who follows the rules. No reason to take a criminal who doesn't even own the land into consideration.
> 
> You keep missing the fact he is a full blown criminal! Mooching off you, me, the state of Nevada, and even wildlife... All that for no fee, and for profit!


And if he is such a criminal, arrest him.....
I do not understand why he has not been.

I do believe there is more to this story then is being let on too. This is just not about an 80 acre rancher and a tortoise.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

rukus said:


> It's not just Bundy that this would affect. If I am not mistaken, there are several ranchers that share that range and are paying fees. What do you have to say to them?


You say to them.........."enjoy ranging your cattle legally and thank you for paying your share and obeying the law"

The BLM was not rounding up the legal cattle that were there. The ones that were mixed in and were legal were being returned to their rightful owners. They could be placed on the range again once Bundy's illegal cattle were gathered.

*BUNDY IS A FREELOADER.* *AMERICAN TRASH.*


----------



## Huntoholic

Trooper said:


> It's Nevada.


Thought you were referencing about if it was to happen in utah.

My bad.

Edit:
NRS Chapter 569.

Still looks pretty clear who should be removing those animals. So why have they not?


----------



## rukus

Mr Muleskinner said:


> You say to them.........."enjoy ranging your cattle legally and thank you for paying your share and obeying the law"
> 
> The BLM was not rounding up the legal cattle that were there. The ones that were mixed in and were legal were being returned to their rightful owners. They could be placed on the range again once Bundy's illegal cattle were gathered.
> 
> *BUNDY IS A FREELOADER.* *AMERICAN TRASH.*


I agree Mule. I was referring more to the situation if they lost their range to a solar station or something of the sort.

Bundy certainly looks crazy from the outside, but as has been stated many times before. This situation is way too crazy and suspicious to be only about a freeloading cattle rancher and a tortoise. Something stinks with this. Unfortunately we will probably never know.


----------



## Fowlmouth

So what happens now that the Feds have left the property and gave Bundy his livestock back? Is this going back to the courts to decide? I keep hearing Bundy say he has never had his day in court.:-? 
Is Bundy going to continue to graze cattle there?


----------



## martymcfly73

lifes short said:


> I hope the folks that ancestors that had sheep leases on the units we now have wild sheep on don't think they ought to have the right to put their sheep back on the Timpanogas, Flaming Gorge, Uinta, San Rafael, etc. areas again. If Bundy can run his animals without being legal why can't they? Just my thought on this mess.


I believe Robert Redford and Karl Malone bought the grazing rights on timp in preparation for releasing sheep there years ago. I think anyway.


----------



## martymcfly73

LostLouisianian said:


> First off, snopes has been caught stretching the truth more than once. Secondly if this is about back pay to the US Government, what about taking half of Berkshire Hathaway from Warren Buffet since he is refusing to pay over a billion in back taxes. What about every other single person out there who owes back taxes of some sort and is refusing to pay. Do we take their homes and business away too? If no, then why just Bundy. Your arguments hold no water. And yes this is about the Chinese solar deal otherwise why has it now been taken off the BLM website. Why has it also been scrubbed off of Google cache. When you can logically and factually explain that, then you may have a leg to stand on over your argument that this isn't about the Chicom solar project.


Sorry, I hate the Reid's more than anyone but that Chinese deal died in June 2013. Look on the blaze.com. they did any investigation. China couldn't find any takers so they killed the deal. Bundy is a deadbeat, welfare rancher trying to be the next Randy weaver or David koresh.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

The only thing that I have seen that stinks is there is a bunch of hogwash going around about solar panels somehow affecting Bundy's refusal to pay his bills to the BLM. Even if it were true, Bundy has knowingly and willingly broken the law for over twenty years while other law abiding ranchers try to scratch out living doing things within the law. The groups that support him are supporting him only because he is going against the feds. The man has lost in every court he has appeared in. On every level. One would believe from reading the press that everybody down in Mesquite has his back but the fact is he is viewed as felon by an overwhelming majority of the locals there. 

He has stated that he will pay the state and not the feds. That makes about as much sense as sending your state taxes to the feds and expecting the IRS to accept it. He has also said that he follows all state laws but almost no federal laws. He states that the land is not BLM land that it is state land.

“…I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But, I don’t recognize the United States Government as even existing.” Bundy


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch

Pretty good article that explains both sides pretty well. Includes maps and court documents. If you remove the opinion portions of the article and focus on the facts it is a pretty good read.


----------



## Huntoholic

After reading NRS: Chapter 569, I'm not sure why the State of Nevada is not heavily involved. By their own State Law it appears to me they are responsible for working out the issues of the bovine. 

So why aren't they?


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## klbzdad

Constitutional Elements:

Constitution of the United States. We here over and over again from supporters about Article 1 Section 8 but conveniently people forget Article 4 Section 3 Clause 2:

The Founder's Constitution

Constitution of the State of Nevada:

Constitution of Nevada

So, according to the state constitution and history, the ELECTED legislature of Nevada voted, accepted, and ratified the state constitution to accept the terms of the US government in order to obtain statehood. Right or wrong, they accepted it. It is wrong the US has not honored its commitment to waive ownership of each state's land back to each state, but for this, it hasn't happened. The land he is "trespassing on" belongs to the United States of America per BOTH constitutions. That was basically painted in crayon for him but he never got it. When anyone or anything associated with the federal government that he didn't like started to make sense to him, he would instantly disagree with and then UNRECOGNIZED them after already have acknowledged them in the beginning. Talking out both sides of him pie hole.

I don't know how many have seen this, but its a short explanation of the basis for capacity regarding range land and why the Taylor Grazing Act was passed. The Tragedy of the Commons was required to mitigate ranchers and cattlemen hurting each other's operations and to attempt to stop the fights and killings of each other but most important was to help the habitat recover from the overgrazing that was sure to create a dust bowl. Ranchers and cattlemen and others who used the land, asked for government oversight.






A good explanation of everything from both sides and court documents that are important in this mess are available here:

Sage of the Bundy Ranch - Breitbard

And then there's the final ruling putting the "gather" in motion:

BLM FINAL ORDER

After watching this mess for the last three years and studying the history of it trying to understand landowner rights involved with the idiot elk killer / rancher in Paiute County, I can say that both Bundy and the BLM are wrong in this standoff mess. Nowhere in our constitution does it allow for benign federal agencies to create their own law enforcement arms within their own agency. Nowhere. That responsibility what meant for the County sheriff in each state where they had jurisdiction. The BLM, when formed, was supposed to manage dirt, water, and resources. NOT forceably manage people.

Bundy is wrong in that his constantly having his copy of the US Constitution poking out his stupid shirt pocket of which he refers to him having rights to that land and the federal government has no jurisdiction is dead wrong. Read his responses to the government. He doesn't understand fully what he is saying OR he's willfully imposing self ignorance on the matter because he knows he's wrong. I don't know. Don't know the guy. Just know that I have all the hard copies of this stupid case I could get my hands on and some electronic.

Some even suggest that because the court, attorney's, and blm are "kin" (see what I did there?) that Bundy cannot get a fair ruling. He's dead damned ignorant. Same Judge, same court, same attorneys:

Federal Judge Rules in Favor of Ranchers in Property Dispute

He got what he asked for. The government got what they really came for and that was intel. Now, they will start over by prosecuting him in district court holding him in contempt. Then, they'll hold him in contempt of those orders and a judge will send the sheriff to pick him up. In the mean time, the IRS and EPA will show up and take everything he has and close the lands for everyone. How in the hell did either side to right by the American people? I'd like to know.


----------



## klbzdad

Oh, and the only cattle taken out of the area didn't belong to "the last cattle rancher standing" in Clark County. They were from the other "last cattle rancher standing" in Clark County off the Lake Mead allotment. Oopsie......stupid facts anyway.


----------



## Huntoholic

Pretty interesting reading. The "BLM Final Order" only applys to Cliven cattle only. Under State Statue it appears that the unbranded cattle belong to the State of Nevada, unless Cliven can prove they are his. I do see some conflict between that State and Federal jurisdication, but maybe this is just my ignorance in the law. 

It also appears to me that if he has set one foot on that allotment, he could have been arrested. So why has he not been?


----------



## bowgy

Wow, I go out of town for the day and this went 3 more pages.

It has been interesting and kind of fun to -O|o-but Bundy has taken too much of my time and tax money.

I will just leave it with I will continue to pay my BLM leases and not worry about having to go to court over it. I don't think Bundy will ever get his lease back even if he paid up. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

He will probably end up in jail because he is too proud to ever admit he is wrong and pay up, but I hope no one gets hurt over it.

Thanks for the fun discussion.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Had this one sent to me.

http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/04/b...-prescriptive-rights-might-use-defense-court/


----------



## riptheirlips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> You say to them.........."enjoy ranging your cattle legally and thank you for paying your share and obeying the law"
> 
> The BLM was not rounding up the legal cattle that were there. The ones that were mixed in and were legal were being returned to their rightful owners. They could be placed on the range again once Bundy's illegal cattle were gathered.
> 
> *BUNDY IS A FREELOADER.* *AMERICAN TRASH.*


Just curious why you only say Bundy is the freeloader. There are millions of people ripping America off like Bundy.


----------



## riptheirlips

Just another investigation about low life Reid.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/Harry-Reid-Stand-Off-Mastermind.htm#.U0_FtvldVPY

Nevada please don't send Reid back to Washington again.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

riptheirlips said:


> Just another investigation about low life Reid.
> 
> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/r/Harry-Reid-Stand-Off-Mastermind.htm#.U0_FtvldVPY
> 
> Nevada please don't send Reid back to Washington again.


I take it you were never the fastest boy in the race?


----------



## bowgy

couldn't resist. The cowboy on the gate yelling "THE WEST HAS NOW BEEN WON" is Ryan Bundy, I didn't realize he was one of Cliven's sons. He is one of the nicest guys I have met. He used to live in my ward.


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## swbuckmaster

Eventually all those cowboys will have to go back to work and the cops will win or they cowboys will get shot


----------



## bowgy




----------



## klbzdad

Perfect example of what happens when emotion overrules common sense. 

The Bundys may just be there very nicest people in the world. But as we all know, being nice doesn't make you smarter or make you right when your emotions cloud your judgement.


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## GaryFish

BLM - Wrong execution of the right idea. Enforcing laws and contracts with armed federal agents and helicopters.

Bundy Gang - Right execution of the wrong idea. 
Gets people to ignore decades of felony behavior and turn him into a symbolic martyr and folk hero.


----------



## Trooper

Fowlmouth said:


> So what happens now that the Feds have left the property and gave Bundy his livestock back? Is this going back to the courts to decide? I keep hearing Bundy say he has never had his day in court.:-?
> Is Bundy going to continue to graze cattle there?


He's had not only his "day" but "years" in court. The BLM has a pocket full of court orders...


----------



## swbuckmaster




----------



## #1DEER 1-I

An ugly situation, my guess is that eventually the BLM will get the matter taken care of. I don't stand by Bundy, but I also don't stand by the way the BLM used such force and tax money in the roundup. It shouldn't cost what it cost to do this job, and I hope to see that they are taking care of their horse issues as well.


----------



## hondodawg

A couple of pictures that was posted on FB. They have also put a video about the calves and cows treatment while being round up. 
Im not saying this is fact or fiction just sharing what's been allegedly discovered after the BLM left.


----------



## swbuckmaster

I heard they rounded up a bunch of the protesters and are charging them with domestic terrorism. The feds infiltrated the crowd and got names, license plates ect of the instigators and are holding them without bail. These people will be made an example of what not to do with civil disobedience. My guess is the crowds will dwindle from here on out.


----------



## Fowlmouth

If the Feds are correct about everything and the courts have decided in their favor, then why is it so difficult to get Bundy off Federal land? Why isn't he in jail? This whole thing is a mess and doesn't make a lot of sense when you hear about court orders being issued but no resolve. If Bundy is in the wrong then do something about him. Why are the feds being so careful and not prosecuting him? There's got to be more to it then we know. I'm starting to think they can't touch this guy and make anything stick or he would already be in jail.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Or they are just building more charges to throw him away for a long time.


----------



## Fowlmouth

swbuckmaster said:


> Or they are just building more charges to throw him away for a long time.


 They have been building a case over the last 20 years and it hasn't worked.:smile:


----------



## hondodawg

swbuckmaster said:


> I heard they rounded up a bunch of the protesters and are charging them with domestic terrorism. The feds infiltrated the crowd and got names, license plates ect of the instigators and are holding them without bail. These people will be made an example of what not to do with civil disobedience. My guess is the crowds will dwindle from here on out.


Can believe I'm using face book regardless this is what the family has said regarding your statement


----------



## swbuckmaster

Interesting how the media is getting played its like a chess match of BS


----------



## hondodawg

Fowlmouth said:


> They have been building a case over the last 20 years and it hasn't worked.:smile:


I'm not sure what to think. Wouldn't it be easier to garnish the proceeds of his cattle at auction on the spot. 
Cattle removed and payment received.


----------



## martymcfly73

I'm sure the feds don't want another Waco. And Bundy has said he'll go down shooting. Anyone dies it will throw fuel on the fire. And the feds will lose.


----------



## GaryFish

Just need to let it rest for a while and let the Sheriff pull the guy over for a busted taillight or something and then respond to the Federal warrant for his arrest. Then put a lien on the guys property for back taxes, sell his assets to settle things up and then be done.


----------



## .45

GaryFish said:


> BLM - Wrong execution of the right idea. *Enforcing laws and contracts with armed federal agents and helicopters.
> *
> Bundy Gang - Right execution of the wrong idea.
> Gets people to ignore decades of felony behavior and turn him into a symbolic martyr and folk hero.


Also when you lock up people in a First Amendment holding pen, it has a tendency to pizz a few people off. No wonder their was such a crowd of, what Reid calls, 'domestic terrorist. Who really was the terrorist?


----------



## riptheirlips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I take it you were never the fastest boy in the race?


 And I take it that you are one of those that continue to get the handouts from the government since you only want to call out Bundy for free loading. But you are one of those that is always right so I guess you will take your ball and bat and go home. Not worth discussing anything with you since you know everything.


----------



## bowgy

Mr Muleskinner said:


> *The only thing that I have seen that stinks is there is a bunch of hogwash going around about solar panels* somehow affecting Bundy's refusal to pay his bills to the BLM. Even if it were true, Bundy has knowingly and willingly broken the law for over twenty years while other law abiding ranchers try to scratch out living doing things within the law. The groups that support him are supporting him only because he is going against the feds. The man has lost in every court he has appeared in. On every level. One would believe from reading the press that everybody down in Mesquite has his back but the fact is he is viewed as felon by an overwhelming majority of the locals there.
> 
> He has stated that he will pay the state and not the feds. That makes about as much sense as sending your state taxes to the feds and expecting the IRS to accept it. He has also said that he follows all state laws but almost no federal laws. He states that the land is not BLM land that it is state land.
> 
> "&#8230;I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But, I don't recognize the United States Government as even existing." Bundy


How about Reuters?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/31/us-usa-china-reid-solar-idUSBRE87U06D20120831


----------



## massmanute

Just to provide a little clarity on the ownership of Federal land and any state claim on such land, here is the wording from the constitution of the State of Nevada:

"... the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States..."

There is not here, nor anywhere else that I am aware of, any requirement or obligation or promise that the Feds must transfer title of any Federal land to the state. In fact, the wording surrounding "forever" and "sole and entire disposition" in the constitution is pretty clear and unambiguous on that point.


----------



## riptheirlips

Just a little fuel


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/455766443611533312


----------



## RandomElk16

bowgy said:


> couldn't resist. The cowboy on the gate yelling "THE WEST HAS NOW BEEN WON" is Ryan Bundy, I didn't realize he was one of Cliven's sons. He is one of the nicest guys I have met. He used to live in my ward.


This video, to me, justifies everything the BLM did EXCEPT releasing the cattle. Making a stand is different then making a freeloader stand. This was bull, they blatantly disobeyed the requests even when told shots could be fired and put the BLM on their toes. They gave more power to a man who shouldn't have any.

Funny how much we push on the government until we need em. Bundy complains about the US government and says it doesn't exist... I would like to see him move to the middle east and try what he just did. He would probably feel different if he didn't have a bunch of troops protecting his a** so he doesn't have to pay taxes or ever be invaded by another country. People need to get a life....


----------



## bowgy

RandomElk16 said:


> *This video, to me, justifies everything the BLM did EXCEPT releasing the cattle. *Making a stand is different then making a freeloader stand. This was bull, they blatantly disobeyed the requests even when told shots could be fired and put the BLM on their toes. They gave more power to a man who shouldn't have any.
> 
> Funny how much we push on the government until we need em. Bundy complains about the US government and says it doesn't exist... I would like to see him move to the middle east and try what he just did. He would probably feel different if he didn't have a bunch of troops protecting his a** so he doesn't have to pay taxes or ever be invaded by another country. People need to get a life....


Interesting:
Bunkerville rancher Cliven Bundy is accusing the Bureau of Land Management and a number of who he described as "contract cowboys" working for the agency, of killing and partially burying an unknown number of cattle in a remote "mass grave" on Gold Butte.
http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20140417/NEWS01/304170004/Bundy-saga-likely-far-from-over


----------



## swbuckmaster

Domestic terrorism

Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism. A person engages in domestic terrorism if they do an act ""dangerous to human life"" that is a violation of the criminal laws of a state or the United States, if the act appears to be intended to: (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping. Additionally, the acts have to occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States and if they do not, may be regarded as international terrorism.

Seizure of assets - Sec. 806: Section 806 of the Act could result in the civil seizure of their assets without a prior hearing, and without them ever being convicted of a crime. It is by far the most significant change of which political organizations need to be aware. Section 806 amended the civil asset forfeiture statute to authorize the government to seize and forfeit: all assets, foreign or domestic (i) of any individual, entity, or organization engaged in planning or perpetrating any act of domestic or international terrorism against the United States, or their property, and all assets, foreign or domestic, affording any person a source of influence over any such entity or organization or (ii) acquired or maintained by any person with the intent and for the purpose of supporting, planning, conducting, or concealing an act of domestic or international terrorism against the United States, citizens or residents of the United States or their property or (iii) derived from, involved in, or used or intended to be used to commit any act of domestic or international terrorism against the United States, citizens or residents of the United States, or their property.

Any U.S. citizen can now be arrested by the U.S. military while inside the U.S. and can be permanently jailed with no charges, no right to a trial, and no lawyer to assist with a defense.

Yes, it is all true. It is now the law of the land. Congress wrote it and President Obama signed it into law on December 31st, 2011. It is the National Defense Authorization Act for fiscal year 2012 (NDAA 2012). The problems with the new law are located in Title X, subtitle D, subsections 1031 and 1032.

Id be a little bit nervous going anywhere near those cowboys! I posted a comment the other day saying people have already been arrested and someone posted a Facebook link saying the feds hacked into Bundy's face book and it was all lies. Well I think it was a warning of whats to come. Some if these people may go back home and think its over only to be jailed the rest of their life over someone else's stupid cows.


----------



## RandomElk16

bowgy said:


> Interesting:
> Bunkerville rancher Cliven Bundy is accusing the Bureau of Land Management and a number of who he described as "contract cowboys" working for the agency, of killing and partially burying an unknown number of cattle in a remote "mass grave" on Gold Butte.
> http://www.thespectrum.com/article/20140417/NEWS01/304170004/Bundy-saga-likely-far-from-over


Where are the pics of the dead cattle? Also, I feel his cattle should be taken, shot, auctioned, whatever. Watching that video got me to the point where I thought about getting me a Nevada free range cattle tag.

Let me ask, if you miss a few house payments what happens? What about 20 years worth? I personally think Nevada res have as much right to his cattle at this point as he does. Their land is raising them. Also, many are unbranded which by their law DO belong to them.

Contract cowboys... sheesh. Says the guy who had a militia down there with him...


----------



## riptheirlips

RandomElk16 said:


> Where are the pics of the dead cattle? Also, I feel his cattle should be taken, shot, auctioned, whatever. Watching that video got me to the point where I thought about getting me a Nevada free range cattle tag.
> 
> Let me ask, if you miss a few house payments what happens? What about 20 years worth? I personally think Nevada res have as much right to his cattle at this point as he does. Their land is raising them. Also, many are unbranded which by their law DO belong to them.
> 
> Contract cowboys... sheesh. Says the guy who had a militia down there with him...


If Nevada is a fence out state as Bundy claims then it is BLM who has to fence their property to keep his cattle out. Is that correct?


----------



## RandomElk16

riptheirlips said:


> If Nevada is a fence out state as Bundy claims then it is BLM who has to fence their property to keep his cattle out. Is that correct?


568.355. "Open range" defined 
As used in NRS 568.360 and 568.370, unless the context otherwise requires, "open range" means all unenclosed land outside of cities and towns upon which cattle, sheep or other domestic animals *by custom, license, lease or permit* are grazed or permitted to roam.

The law says basically says free range cattle will roam your land, like what occurs on my property at this time, if it is unfenced and borders free range. If your land borders public land, the person with the grazing *permit* doesn't have to teach his cows to stay away from your unfenced land and they won't be charged for it. It makes a grazing lease more appealing, because who wants to buy a permit that gets them in trouble or their cattle killed.

You guys are so stuck with Bundy its funny. "Oh crap, I am wrong but will keep trying to find loopholes." None of those laws benefit the LAWBREAKER. Stop digging.


----------



## RandomElk16

In regards to his unbranded cattle:

569.005. Definitions 
As used in NRS 569.010 to 569.130, inclusive, unless the context requires otherwise:

1. "Division" means the division of agriculture of the department of business and industry.

2._ "Estray" _means any livestock running at large upon public or private lands in the State of Nevada, whose owner is unknown in the section where such animal is found.

569.010. Estrays deemed property of division; control, placement or disposition of estrays; disposition of money; liability 
1. Except as otherwise provided by law, all estrays within this state shall be deemed for the purpose of this section to be the property of the division.

2. The division has all rights accruing pursuant to the laws of this state to owners of such animals, and may:

(a) *Dispose of estrays* by sale through an agent appointed by the division; or

(b) *Provide for the control, placement or disposition of estrays through cooperative agreements* pursuant to section 2 of chapter 171, Statutes of Nevada 1993.


----------



## RandomElk16

*Open Range Defined *
In 1893, Nevada law "exempted owners of 
"livestock running at large on the ranges or *
2*
commons" from civil liability for trespass 
pursuant to NRS 568.300" (Nevada Attorney 
General, 1965). Open Range is defined by 
Nevada Statute in NRS 568.355 as used in 
NRS 568.360 and 568.370 as "all unenclosed 
land outside of cities and towns upon which 
cattle, sheep or other domestic animals by 
custom, license, lease or permit are grazed or 
permitted to roam" (NRS 568.360 and 568.370).

Also, to catch you up on the conversation further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Grazing_Act_of_1934

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-568.html


----------



## massmanute

Some interesting points have been brought up and discussed.

Regarding Nevada law, I don't think Nevada law would necessarily apply to Federal lands. Federal law probably governs in that case. I am not sure what the implications of that are. However, given that Bundy has lost all Federal court battles so far, I suspect that Bundy is in violation of Federal law and will lose in the end.


----------



## bowgy

RandomElk16 said:


> Where are the pics of the dead cattle? Also, I feel his cattle should be taken, shot, auctioned, whatever. Watching that video got me to the point where I thought about getting me a Nevada free range cattle tag.
> 
> Let me ask, if you miss a few house payments what happens? What about 20 years worth? I personally think Nevada res have as much right to his cattle at this point as he does. Their land is raising them. Also, many are unbranded which by their law DO belong to them.
> 
> Contract cowboys... sheesh. Says the guy who had a militia down there with him...


On one of the articles it says Ryan Bundy took video, I have not seen it ye

On your other post you say *"You guys are so stuck with Bundy its funny"* I hope you weren't referring to me. All I have posted was stuff that was emailed to me and forwarded it to this discussion for information. I have stated that Bundy was not in the right. I know Ryan Personally and I like him, I haven't ever talked to him about this or his past, I didn't even know he was one of Cliven's sons until I saw him in the videos.

I replied with my last post because you said: "*This video, to me, justifies everything the BLM did EXCEPT releasing the cattle".*
And I thought everything was pretty broad, I just feel neither side did things right.


----------



## bowgy

massmanute said:


> Some interesting points have been brought up and discussed.
> 
> Regarding Nevada law, I don't think Nevada law would necessarily apply to Federal lands. Federal law probably governs in that case. I am not sure what the implications of that are. However, given that Bundy has lost all Federal court battles so far, I suspect that Bundy is in violation of Federal law and will lose in the end.


I pretty much agree, like I have said before I have federal leases and I have to go by their rules and get their permission whenever I build or change anything on those leases. I would never dare not pay my yearly lease fees. I will have to check but I don't think we had to even get building permits from the county to build on federal land, just permits from the government. That may have changed now since I let the contractors do all the permits after I get to ok from the Feds. The last permit took over 2 years to get past the red tape and get the permit, and that was just to add on to an existing structure.


----------



## riptheirlips

randomelk, "You guys are so stuck with Bundy its funny. "Oh crap, I am wrong but will keep trying to find loopholes." None of those laws benefit the LAWBREAKER. Stop digging."

I am not stuck with Bundy at all. I don't know the guy and I don't think anyone should graze for free. It costs me if I turn my few cattle out or if I lease pasture from someone it costs me and it costs me to feed them in the winter. No way he should be provided free food year round or even one day. What has me wondering is why the Feds waited 20 years to do something. There is more to this story than we are being told by the government. If it is all about the grazing fees then just find another rancher who will pay and put his cattle out there. I want to know what caused the government to act now. Tell us the truth.


----------



## LostLouisianian

riptheirlips said:


> randomelk, "You guys are so stuck with Bundy its funny. "Oh crap, I am wrong but will keep trying to find loopholes." None of those laws benefit the LAWBREAKER. Stop digging."
> 
> I am not stuck with Bundy at all. I don't know the guy and I don't think anyone should graze for free. It costs me if I turn my few cattle out or if I lease pasture from someone it costs me and it costs me to feed them in the winter. No way he should be provided free food year round or even one day. What has me wondering is why the Feds waited 20 years to do something. There is more to this story than we are being told by the government. If it is all about the grazing fees then just find another rancher who will pay and put his cattle out there. I want to know what caused the government to act now. Tell us the truth.


Bundy has repeatedly said he will pay all current and back grazing fees to clark county but that the BLM has no jurisdiction since he has prescriptive rights. The BLM is actually agreeing he may have prescriptive rights and is considering letting him pay those fees to Clark county now.


----------



## Fowlmouth

It's a confusing mess and none of us probably have the true facts from either side. The bottom line is that Bundy is not in jail, he got his cows back, he got a hell of a lot of support from people, and the Feds pulled stakes and left. If the Feds had legal court orders and all this other stuff on Bundy, he would have been run off the land by now and put in jail. *IF *Bundy is so in the wrong why can't they touch him? Court order this and court order that, my a$$.

"LostLouisianian"
"Bundy has repeatedly said he will pay all current and back grazing fees to clark county but that the BLM has no jurisdiction since he has prescriptive rights. The BLM is actually agreeing he may have prescriptive rights and is considering letting him pay those fees to Clark county now."

If he has prescriptive rights and the BLM agrees that he does, couldn't he take legal action against the BLM for destruction of property? I imagine a court would have to decide if Bundy has those rights??:?

Give Cliven Bundy grazing rights to all of the WMA's in Utah and let those cows eat all the phragmites they want.8)


----------



## klbzdad

He will not be allowed to rewrite laws today to suit what he has done wrong yesterday. 

Why hasn't he been arrested? Because he DID obey the court's order not to physically interfere with the "gather". He sent his kids and moron militia in behind unarmed women and children. But the biggest reason he hasn't been arrested is that the federal government has filed for a criminal contempt of court action. Until that happens and goes to court, he'll do as he pleases emboldened by a misguided bunch of patriots who claim to be defending the constitution while ignoring it at the same time.

Why haven't Nevada NSR's been enforced?

The same reason. The state of Nevada has not filed an action against him because the lands in question are managed by the Federal Government and therefore local jurisdiction is superseded by the federal court's jurisdiction. That was affirmed by the state of Nevada in federal court. I would like to have seen this case start in a state court but it didn't so Bundy extrapolates what benefits him the most and his cheerleaders at Fox, Hannity, Sustren, The Judge Neapolian Dynamite use exaggeration to maintain ratings. At least Meghan Kelly is honest about the whole thing stating clearly both sides are bullies and wrong as to how to resolve this. She has good legs too. That helps. 

Prescriptive rights were established as a way to try and control cattlemen, now its convenient for him to use it to try and control a federal government he doesn't recognize? uhmmmmmmm..........yeah.


----------



## hondodawg

So does this still make it ok to shoot and or run the animals to death. Than bury them in a hole in the desert?


----------



## martymcfly73

hondodawg said:


> So does this still make it ok to shoot and or run the animals to death. Than bury them in a hole in the desert?


For Bundy yes. I still haven't seen any evidence other than Bundy's words this happened. And he isn't credible at all. As are most criminals.


----------



## Fowlmouth

martymcfly73 said:


> For Bundy yes. I still haven't seen any evidence other than Bundy's words this happened. And he isn't credible at all. As are most criminals.


 I saw a bunch of videos of this on Bundy's facebook page. Check it out if you want. There are videos showing water tanks destroyed, cattle shot and left to rot, and cattle buried.


----------



## hondodawg

Pulled it off FB


----------



## hondodawg

I think this was the first one they found.


----------



## riptheirlips

martymcfly73 said:


> For Bundy yes. I still haven't seen any evidence other than Bundy's words this happened. And he isn't credible at all. As are most criminals.


Senator Reid has not done anything to pay his 17 trillion in debt the entire time he has been a senator so can we run him down and shoot him? Seems our elected officials are in the same boat as Bundy. They don't pay their bills either. Nevada please don't send Reid back to Washington or his son.


----------



## RandomElk16

hondodawg said:


> Pulled it off FB


Interesting they knew EXACTLY where to dig. And those cattle, other than the one lone picture surfacing below, all look like they have been dead awhile. Bundy prolly shot another ranchers cattle, buried em, and now has a reason to use them.

I mean come on.... He went digging random holes in the wake of this situation? Really?

The black cow could have been shot by anyone. If he can have a mini militia, you have to assume there are a few citizens sick of his crap so one decided to shoot his cow?


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## longbow

Doesn't every rancher have a "hole" he takes his dead cows to? My grandfather had one. Maybe this is Bundy's cow dump that he's blaming the feds for. Maybe it was the feds.


----------



## RandomElk16

longbow said:


> Doesn't every rancher have a "hole" he takes his dead cows to? My grandfather had one. Maybe this is Bundy's cow dump that he's blaming the feds for. Maybe it was the feds.


It very well may be the feds. But as I read more this morning, I gotta think... He should be thankful they didn't auction his cattle to pay his DEBT. Ethics come in to play, but a few dead cattle is better than 100% of them being auctioned isn't it?

To add to the fire, here is a video:

http://www.infowars.com/feds-assault-cancer-victim-pregnant-woman-in-clash-with-bundy-supporters/

It is interesting because who is the aggressor? The guy who gets tazed a few times would have had me worried. He is lucky they didn't shoot him. And as far as the pregnant lady goes, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? You are pregnant! Keep your unborn outta harms way by staying home, not going to a high tension protest/standoff!


----------



## hondodawg

A ruling last year from a different rancher in Nevada

http://www.rangemagazine.com/specialreports/range-su13-hage-decision.pdf


----------



## Fowlmouth

So if you don't pay your income taxes will the IRS show up at your house with a task force and take your cars, TV's, furniture and guns so they can auction them off? I'm being facetious, but it doesn't seem any different then a guy that owes back taxes for grazing rights.:-?


----------



## longbow

RandomElk16 said:


> It very well may be the feds. But as I read more this morning, I gotta think... He should be thankful they didn't auction his cattle to pay his DEBT. Ethics come in to play, but a few dead cattle is better than 100% of them being auctioned isn't it?
> 
> To add to the fire, here is a video:
> 
> http://www.infowars.com/feds-assault-cancer-victim-pregnant-woman-in-clash-with-bundy-supporters/
> 
> It is interesting because who is the aggressor? The guy who gets tazed a few times would have had me worried. He is lucky they didn't shoot him. And as far as the pregnant lady goes, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? You are pregnant! Keep your unborn outta harms way by staying home, not going to a high tension protest/standoff!


Good points Ramdom.


----------



## klbzdad

hondodawg said:


> So does this still make it ok to shoot and or run the animals to death. Than bury them in a hole in the desert?


No, but does a handful of dead cattle in a hole in the desert justify the Bundy clan claiming that 130 cattle were killed and buried and several turtle holes run over? There are other things in the desert that dig holes besides hard shelled reptiles and BLM contractors. Now, the focus is on Texas so Bundy has to "dig up some dirt" to post in order to get some attention back on his bullcrap. (See what I did there? TWICE?)


----------



## hondodawg

So what is a cow or bull worth anyway? 
I'm guessing a few hundred bucks?


----------



## RandomElk16

hondodawg said:


> So what is a cow or bull worth anyway?
> I'm guessing a few hundred bucks?


A couple thousand....


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

depends on the cow and the bull. I drove by there last weekend to check things out for myself. They were having a pretty big rally. I assure you his cattle do not fetch top dollar at the auctions. I would be very surprised if his "prize" bulls would get more than $1200. Maybe $1400.

The stock I saw I would not buy.


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## klbzdad

By my count, the 130 cattle "owned by Bundy" that were supposedly "murdered" by the blm folks is actually 2. The other four belonged to the people of the "sovereign state of Nevada, county of Clark" as Bozo....er, I mean Bundy would put it.

And common Muleskinner, a little brush bull steak never killed anyone. Ruined their teeth and broke a jaw or two but nobody ever died from that leathery crap. Have they?

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/21/BLM-Confirms-It-Killed-Six-Of-Bundy-s-Cows


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

I would sooner eat mule.


----------



## RandomElk16

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I would sooner eat mule.


Mr Muleeater


----------



## RandomElk16

klbzdad said:


> By my count, the 130 cattle "owned by Bundy" that were supposedly "murdered" by the blm folks is actually 2. The other four belonged to the people of the "sovereign state of Nevada, county of Clark" as Bozo....er, I mean Bundy would put it.
> 
> And common Muleskinner, a little brush bull steak never killed anyone. Ruined their teeth and broke a jaw or two but nobody ever died from that leathery crap. Have they?
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/21/BLM-Confirms-It-Killed-Six-Of-Bundy-s-Cows


{The People for Ethical Treatment of Animals weighed in on the situation as well telling Breitbart News in a statement, "These animals shouldn't be killed either by the government, or by the rancher who plans to send the cows off to slaughter. The best thing anyone can do to stop the suffering of animals is to go vegan."}

Throw that in there cuz it means a hell of a lot... Good thing they weighed in with that heavy statement haha.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

I've seen cattle such as these run through auction. After being out on grazing land for as long as they have and in as desolate of area as it is, they are no better than a wild animal and don't bring jack **** at auction. I watched a cow run through once off the desert that both the people in the ring had to stand behind the guards because it constantly was running them. The cow sold for $300, and it was a fairly decent cow. Bulls tend to run from $1,000-$2,000, but with bulls such as these I would bet you could get $900-$1,000 if they didn't have good temperament. I doubt any of his cows would bring top dollar. Bundy still owes us taxpayers and the BLM, we and they owe him nothing. No the BLM didn't do things right, but the situation still stands.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Also is there any updates on the horse situation in Utah?


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## #1DEER 1-I

http://misguidedchildren.com/domest...ers-among-blm-agents-at-the-bundy-ranch/19404

Has anyone seen this? Was it before or after the altercation?


----------



## riptheirlips

Good old Harry, I bet this will show up on truthorfiction!!

How come we don't know how to "spin" facts? 

No matter what side of the AISLE you're on, THIS is FUNNY.
Judy Walkman, a professional genealogy researcher in southern California , was doing some personal work on her own family tree. She discovered that Senator Harry Reid's great-great uncle, Remus Reid, was hanged for horse stealing and train robbery in Montana in 1889. Both Judy and Harry Reid share this common ancestor.

The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the gallows in Montana territory:

On the back of the picture Judy obtained during her research is this inscription: 'Remus Reid, horse thief, sent to Montana Territorial Prison 1885, escaped 1887, robbed the Montana Flyer six times. Caught by Pinkerton detectives, convicted and hanged in 1889.'

So Judy recently e-mailed Senator Harry Reid for information about their great-great uncle.

Harry Reid:

Believe it or not, Harry Reid's staff sent back the following biographical sketch for her genealogy research:

"Remus Reid was a famous cowboy in the Montana Territory . His business empire grew to include acquisition of valuable equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Montana railroad. Beginning in 1883, he devoted several years of his life to government service, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with the railroad. In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the renowned Pinkerton Detective Agency. In 1889, Remus passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the platform upon which he was standing collapsed." 


Now THAT Is how it’s done, Folks! 
That’s real Political Spin!!


----------



## Airborne

Nope

http://www.snopes.com/politics/humor/horsethief.asp

Funny story but totally BS.
Why can't anyone Google check their stuff--all it takes is a couple seconds.

My dad stopped sending me right wing emails because I am no fun--kept throwing them back at him with pesky facts. Learn to recognize propaganda.


----------



## fishsnoop

Airborne said:


> Nope
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/humor/horsethief.asp
> 
> Funny story but totally BS.
> Why can't anyone Google check their stuff--all it takes is a couple seconds.
> 
> My dad stopped sending me right wing emails because I am no fun--kept throwing them back at him with pesky facts. Learn to recognize propaganda.


A freakin MEN!
Sick of the BS stories and photos of dumb gun toting idiots lining women up as shields. Bunch of government subsidy taking jackoffs. Family didn't even purchase the **** ranch until 1948 but this clown thinks he has ancestral rights. All those militia clowns need to be cited and or arrested and Bundy needs to be kicked in the nuts by a little girl then shot in the head.
For Bundy not recognizing the federal government he needs to wrap himself in that flag he rode his horse with before the girl kicks him in the nuts.


----------



## klbzdad

fishsnoop said:


> A freakin MEN!
> Sick of the BS stories and photos of dumb gun toting idiots lining women up as shields. Bunch of government subsidy taking jackoffs. Family didn't even purchase the **** ranch until 1948 but this clown thinks he has ancestral rights. All those militia clowns need to be cited and or arrested and Bundy needs to be kicked in the nuts by a little girl then shot in the head.
> For Bundy not recognizing the federal government he needs to wrap himself in that flag he rode his horse with before the girl kicks him in the nuts.


Shot in the head? Really? Kind of extreme when some are talking about how both the BLM and militia monkeys are way overboard. Saying that is no better. Dude is full of rhetorical blah blah blah but that doesn't warrant calling for him to be shot.

I have some choice words about that blm asshat, Dan Love. He spent millions to persecute and alienate a truly great family in San Juan county and then got awarded Special Agent of the Year 2009:










Just because Dr. Redd picked up this thing while on a hike:


















Not only did he deploy seven snipers on a law abiding doctor's home, but several hundred agents combed through everything to find very little that the doctor had purchased. The doctor isn't infallible but Love then left the trinket bead WITH the Redds while he shopped for an appraisal that would qualify an arrest as a felony. That took time because its worth about $200.00...maybe.

This is why the blm should NOT have law enforcement and these duties belong with the local sheriff.


----------



## Airborne

#1DEER 1-I said:


> http://misguidedchildren.com/domest...ers-among-blm-agents-at-the-bundy-ranch/19404
> 
> Has anyone seen this? Was it before or after the altercation?


Honest to god people we need to think critically. The article above is total BS as well. They show a pic of some dude and say that he is special forces and the white house sent him to round up the Bundy cattle--seriously! You really can't make this stuff up. The person writing this trash has no proof and knows nothing about Special Forces. SF personnel do not report 'directly' to the white house, they have a chain of command. They are not SF for life, they have enlistment contracts like all other soldiers. I don't have time to get into additional details but don't let your unsubstantiated hatred for the federal government cloud rational thought.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

You need federal law enforcement, that's like saying we don't need game wardens to protect our wildlife resource it should be left to the police .This is our land resource and yes klbzdad you need federal officers to protect that too . It was a bad situation, but court orders and BLM jurasdiction along with a welfare rip off farmer ignited this war. I hope the BLM gets in and rights this wrong.


----------



## klbzdad

Game wardens work to manage what and where? The animals within a state's boarders.

Please enlighten me were the blm NEEDS to have a law enforcement arm. Or the NSA, or the IRS, or the EPA? Are you brain dead?!?! Show me where in the constitution, federalist papers, or even the Taylor Grazing Act where it points to the need of federal law enforcement and then please point to the even more important evidence that they have done one damned thing right if they were justified?

I know people who worked with the animals IN THAT ROUNDUP! A couple of them I'm very close too and spoke with while they were there. They don't necessarily think the BLM needs law enforcement but with the militia and emotional anti government idiots that were coming to the Bundy call to "range war" with firearms, they were grateful to have someone there to protect them. 

The truth of the matter is, the federal court shouldn't have jurisdiction but it does. The BLM shouldn't have law enforcement but it does. And idiots looking to play shoot em up with the federales they despise so much shouldn't be picking the Bundy fiasco to fight over but they are. 

I personally hope they round up that tubby ass rancher and his idiot boys and let em sit in jail until they agree to remove the cattle. Then, any animals that die, its the Bundy's fault. If any stupid turtles get crushed, Bundy's fault. Cowboy accidentally shoots another cowboy, BUNDY!


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

klbzdad said:


> Game wardens work to manage what and where? The animals within a state's boarders.
> 
> Please enlighten me were the blm NEEDS to have a law enforcement arm. Or the NSA, or the IRS, or the EPA? Are you brain dead?!?! Show me where in the constitution, federalist papers, or even the Taylor Grazing Act where it points to the need of federal law enforcement and then please point to the even more important evidence that they have done one damned thing right if they were justified?
> 
> I know people who worked with the animals IN THAT ROUNDUP! A couple of them I'm very close too and spoke with while they were there. They don't necessarily think the BLM needs law enforcement but with the militia and emotional anti government idiots that were coming to the Bundy call to "range war" with firearms, they were grateful to have someone there to protect them.
> 
> The truth of the matter is, the federal court shouldn't have jurisdiction but it does. The BLM shouldn't have law enforcement but it does. And idiots looking to play shoot em up with the federales they despise so much shouldn't be picking the Bundy fiasco to fight over but they are.
> 
> I personally hope they round up that tubby ass rancher and his idiot boys and let em sit in jail until they agree to remove the cattle. Then, any animals that die, its the Bundy's fault. If any stupid turtles get crushed, Bundy's fault. Cowboy accidentally shoots another cowboy, BUNDY!


You answered your own questions. Without BLM and Forest service law enforcement cattlemen and everyone and there dog would do whatever the hell they wanted on public land. Do you want people driving 4 wheelers everywhere off trails? Do you want things dumped on public land? Do you want any member of the public to be able to go tear up and plant what they see fit? Do you want a dust bowl, no vegetation, no protection of land, and no wildlife? If the BLM and forest service don't do there job to ENFORCE land management then there's not going to be much use for wildlife management with destroyed habitats and grazed to dirt public land. Down here a BLM ranger moved in who really helped clean things up, within the first week he caught a few guys smoking weed and breaking beer bottles all over the ground as well as trashing the place with all sorts of other litter. Yes our public land needs law enforcement.

Another big reason where you answered your own question, would it have been wise for the BLM to go into that situation with no protection or law enforcement? Idiots like those protestors with guns show you why the BLM needs law enforcement. Managing land is no different than wildlife. If you don't think you need law enforcement and rules for your public land visit Piute county right now and see the hatred of the elk.


----------



## Fowlmouth

Regardless of what side you are on, this journalist brings up a good point about how the Feds don't protect our borders this good. It is also interesting that he reports about how some BLM agents didn't raise their weapons during the standoff. 
http://www.westernjournalism.com/footage-bundy-massacre/


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Fowlmouth said:


> Regardless of what side you are on, this journalist brings up a good point about how the Feds don't protect our borders this good. It is also interesting that he reports about how some BLM agents didn't raise their weapons during the standoff.
> http://www.westernjournalism.com/footage-bundy-massacre/


I've seen this video, the BLM is an agency formed for land management, not internationally security, that is what the border patrol agency is for. That is not the BLMs affair . Watching the way some of the BLM officers were treated and talked to is disgusting , I don't understand why there is even a debate.


----------



## Fowlmouth

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I've seen this video, the BLM is an agency formed for land management, not internationally security, that is what the border patrol agency is for. That is not the BLMs affair . Watching the way some of the BLM officers were treated and talked to is disgusting , I don't understand why there is even a debate.


 If the BLM is for land management then what were they doing playing security? The way civilians were talked to and treated was disgusting too. Like I said before, I don't know who is right or wrong in this case, but I have seen a lot of wrongs on both sides of this issue and the way it was handled. Again I ask, why hasn't Bundy and family been charged and arrested with a crime if he is a criminal?


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Fowlmouth said:


> If the BLM is for land management then what were they doing playing security? The way civilians were talked to and treated was disgusting too. Like I said before, I don't know who is right or wrong in this case, but I have seen a lot of wrongs on both sides of this issue and the way it was handled. Again I ask, why hasn't Bundy and family been charged and arrested with a crime if he is a criminal?


Playing security? They were doing exactly what they were mandated to do by 2 court orders. For the desert tortoise may not be the right answer but they were doing exactly what the agency was ment to do, protect our public land from criminals like Bundy by removing his cattle from land that legally can not be grazed and collecting debt from criminal activity Bundy carried out and was making ample profits off of all of our land without paying. Yes the BLM went wrong in some ways, they shouldn't have shown so much force off the get go and things might could have went smoother.... But then again they might not. The video where the guy is tazed and they post the video acting like it was wrong , he was showing aggression laid hands on an officer, and kicked the guard dogs face. You do realize by kicking the dog they had full rights. Try telling the things the protestors were yelling and showing such aggression to the next UHP that pulls you over and I doubt things will go very well for you. The officers were in a very difficult situation with people who had full disregard for the law.


----------



## Fowlmouth

Again I ask, why hasn't Bundy and family members been arrested for anything? You say the guy kicked the dog and laid his hands on an officer. That's not cause for arrest? There's got to be more to this story, or the Feds can't touch the Bundy's because there would have been some arrests made. Believe me I'm not trying to defend what the Bundy's have done, I'm just trying to figure out if this guy is in the wrong why they haven't been able to touch him in 20 years.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Fowlmouth said:


> Again I ask, why hasn't Bundy and family members been arrested for anything? You say the guy kicked the dog and laid his hands on an officer. That's not cause for arrest? There's got to be more to this story, or the Feds can't touch the Bundy's because there would have been some arrests made. Believe me I'm not trying to defend what the Bundy's have done, I'm just trying to figure out if this guy is in the wrong why they haven't been able to touch him in 20 years.


I think he hasn't been arrested for the fear of the loss of public and BLM employees lives. No denial has been made as to Bundy not paying his fees, he knows he hasn't. What third degree would there be? He is not complying to laws everyone else is.


----------



## klbzdad

Uhmmmm.......do some research. I have studied this case and two others the better part of three years and that includes the constitutional aspects argued in court as well as extensive study of the court cases involved requiring the merge of federal LAND management agencies to consolidate resources. Orgionally, the SHERIFF of the counties were the law enforcement arm BLM representatives relied on. 

Suggesting I answered my own question and then asking another stupid question....not too brilliant. But to each his own. I don't always see eye to eye with other people, but as some wise smart a$$ once said, "you're entitled to your own opinion but you're not entitled to your own facts."


----------



## klbzdad

Fowlmouth said:


> Again I ask, why hasn't Bundy and family members been arrested for anything? You say the guy kicked the dog and laid his hands on an officer. That's not cause for arrest? There's got to be more to this story, or the Feds can't touch the Bundy's because there would have been some arrests made. Believe me I'm not trying to defend what the Bundy's have done, I'm just trying to figure out if this guy is in the wrong why they haven't been able to touch him in 20 years.


He first has to loose a claim in a court. He's lost two now. He then has to be found in contempt of those court orders. He will be and will be ordered again to comply. Then, he can be held in criminal contempt of court and picked up. It'll take time and the old coot will likely be dead before its all said and done but those two dumb boys of his.....yeah, they're about 100 times more belligerent and indignant.


----------



## riptheirlips

fishsnoop said:


> A freakin MEN!
> Sick of the BS stories and photos of dumb gun toting idiots lining women up as shields. Bunch of government subsidy taking jackoffs. Family didn't even purchase the **** ranch until 1948 but this clown thinks he has ancestral rights. All those militia clowns need to be cited and or arrested and Bundy needs to be kicked in the nuts by a little girl then shot in the head.
> For Bundy not recognizing the federal government he needs to wrap himself in that flag he rode his horse with before the girl kicks him in the nuts.


Agree story is BS, but if you read it you can see exactly how anyone on here or the news media can write a story to put the spin on it they want the public to receive from the story.

Boy one thing I learned on here the last few days say anything negative about Harry and the s--- hits the fan.

Nevada please keep Harry home, pull his kitchen pass.


----------



## riptheirlips

Fowlmouth said:


> Again I ask, why hasn't Bundy and family members been arrested for anything? You say the guy kicked the dog and laid his hands on an officer. That's not cause for arrest? There's got to be more to this story, or the Feds can't touch the Bundy's because there would have been some arrests made. Believe me I'm not trying to defend what the Bundy's have done, I'm just trying to figure out if this guy is in the wrong why they haven't been able to touch him in 20 years.


And I would like to know if it is all about the money he owes why did they wait 20 years? Seems they should have started this at least 18 years ago. Lets have the truth from the government why they want this land now!


----------



## RandomElk16

The BLM obviously aren't cops. I watch enough "COPS" episodes and "Alaska State Troopers" to know that if they were cops, they would have let that dog off his leash to raise hell 

My favorite part of cops shows... I get the little kid giggles when the dog goes "bark bark bark bark bark" perfect sync just saying "I will eat you!"

but I digress...


----------



## Daisy

*Anyone going?*

https://www.facebook.com/www.bundyfest.org


----------



## RandomElk16

riptheirlips said:


> And I would like to know if it is all about the money he owes why did they wait 20 years? Seems they should have started this at least 18 years ago. Lets have the truth from the government why they want this land now!


They don't "want the land now"... They OWN the land already.


----------



## riptheirlips

RandomElk16 said:


> They don't "want the land now"... They OWN the land already.


No WE the legal taxpayers own the land. But why does BLM all of a sudden want to do something now to control this land after waiting 20 years??? I will guarantee there is more to the use of this land than the Gov is telling the American people.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

riptheirlips said:


> No WE the legal taxpayers own the land. But why does BLM all of a sudden want to do something now to control this land after waiting 20 years??? I will guarantee there is more to the use of this land than the Gov is telling the American people.


Bundy is in the wrong, if there is another reason they are still the managers of the land. Despite what there reasoning is, it really doesn't matter, Bundy is in the wrong and they are deciding to do something about it.


----------



## RandomElk16

riptheirlips said:


> No WE the legal taxpayers own the land. But why does BLM all of a sudden want to do something now to control this land after waiting 20 years??? I will guarantee there is more to the use of this land than the Gov is telling the American people.


Oh, WE do uh?

"While Bundy is defying the federal agency over fees for grazing cattle on *government-owned land*"

Go try and treat that land like it is yours haha... Foolish assertion. The only time I reference the land as being mine is when I laugh it Bundy for thinking it is his!

Yeah, we the tax payers own it. Until the government wants to regulate it in any way shape or form. As far as them having plans in the immediate future? I don't think so. If he writes them the million dollar check or whatever that he owes them, and somehow gets grazing rights again, I am sure they will leave him be.


----------



## riptheirlips

RandomElk16 said:


> Oh, WE do uh?
> 
> Yeah, we the tax payers own it. Until the government wants to regulate it in any way shape or form. As far as them having plans in the immediate future? I don't think so. If he writes them the million dollar check or whatever that he owes them, and somehow gets grazing rights again, I am sure they will leave him be.


Guess since Harry and his boys don't pay China the trillions of dollars they owe China we should lock them all up till they write China a check and pay their bill.

I have never said Bundy wasn't wrong for not paying his grazing fees, all I said is there is more to this story than the government wants us to know.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

RIP you have spend more time justifying Bundy because of unrelated actions of others than anybody I have heard on this forum.

Furthermore you have not done your research on something that you are arguing.


----------



## riptheirlips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> RIP you have spend more time justifying Bundy because of unrelated actions of others than anybody I have heard on this forum.
> 
> Furthermore you have not done your research on something that you are arguing.


And I see all you do on your posts is criticize people if they say anything you don't agree with. Hate to be the one to tell you but you don't know everything and your not always right.


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## massmanute

riptheirlips said:


> Guess since Harry and his boys don't pay China the trillions of dollars they owe China we should lock them all up till they write China a check and pay their bill...


Unlike Bundy, the US government is current on its debt obligations, so your analogy is faulty.


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## Fowlmouth

Fowlmouth said:


> So if you don't pay your income taxes will the IRS show up at your house with a task force and take your cars, TV's, furniture and guns so they can auction them off? I'm being facetious, but it doesn't seem any different then a guy that owes back taxes for grazing rights.:-?


 Why couldn't/didn't the Feds garnish Bundy's wages? Maybe that's not even an option, I don't know?????


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## Mr Muleskinner

riptheirlips said:


> And I see all you do on your posts is criticize people if they say anything you don't agree with. Hate to be the one to tell you but you don't know everything and your not always right.


Nope. I have no problem calling somebody out when they are ill-informed though. I surely do not know everything but I have been following this thing for years. Have family that lives in Mesquite and Bunkerville and other family that works for Clark County in the planning and zoning division.

Do your homework and your ill-informed comments will end.


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## Mr Muleskinner

He said he would continue holding a daily news conference; on Saturday, it drew one reporter and one photographer, so Mr. Bundy used the time to officiate at what was in effect a town meeting with supporters, discussing, in a long, loping discourse, the prevalence of abortion, the abuses of welfare and his views on race.
"I want to tell you one more thing I know about the *****," he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, "and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids - and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch - they didn't have nothing to do. They didn't have nothing for their kids to do. They didn't have nothing for their young girls to do.
"And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?" he asked. "They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I've often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn't get no more freedom. They got less freedom."

Racists Pigheaded Bigot "Patriot" that does not follow the law.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/u...ming-a-hero-in-the-west.html?hpw&rref=us&_r=0


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## RandomElk16

Mr Muleskinner said:


> He said he would continue holding a daily news conference; on Saturday, it drew one reporter and one photographer, so Mr. Bundy used the time to officiate at what was in effect a town meeting with supporters, discussing, in a long, loping discourse, the prevalence of abortion, the abuses of welfare and his views on race.
> "I want to tell you one more thing I know about the *****," he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, "and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids - and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch - they didn't have nothing to do. They didn't have nothing for their kids to do. They didn't have nothing for their young girls to do.
> "And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?" he asked. "They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I've often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn't get no more freedom. They got less freedom."
> 
> Racists Pigheaded Bigot "Patriot" that does not follow the law.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/u...ming-a-hero-in-the-west.html?hpw&rref=us&_r=0


Sounds like the Bundy Ranch is a hell of a lot like that porch. He sits on his a**, doesn't have nothing to do because he doesn't pay his legal obligations to a government that he doesn't acknowledge. He doesn't have to do anything because he *inherited* his ranch and uses government land for free. You didn't earn anything Bundy.

Wish the legal system would put him in jail. These comments would take him a loooooong way.


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## riptheirlips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Nope. I have no problem calling somebody out when they are ill-informed though. I surely do not know everything but I have been following this thing for years. Have family that lives in Mesquite and Bunkerville and other family that works for Clark County in the planning and zoning division.
> 
> Do your homework and your ill-informed comments will end.


I have not said Bundy did not owe money. I pay for my cattle to eat he should to. All I have asked why the Gov waited 20 years and why it is so important that he pays right now it wasn't important the last 20 years? If it is only about the money lease the ground to another rancher who will pay, is the gov willing to do that?? No, well why not. You have never stated why it is so important to the feds to get him off the land now after letting him freeload for 20 years.

You do your homework and tell me why all of a sudden the feds are doing something now.


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## Mr Muleskinner

riptheirlips said:


> I have not said Bundy did not owe money. I pay for my cattle to eat he should to. All I have asked why the Gov waited 20 years and why it is so important that he pays right now it wasn't important the last 20 years? If it is only about the money lease the ground to another rancher who will pay, is the gov willing to do that?? No, well why not. You have never stated why it is so important to the feds to get him off the land now after letting him freeload for 20 years.
> 
> You do your homework and tell me why all of a sudden the feds are doing something now.


I have done my homework RIP. Not going to do yours. You have read all of the court orders, followed the timeline you would know in part what has taken so long for action. Has it been slow? Sure. Extremely? You bet. Excusable? Not really.

Not much different than us waiting for draw results.

On another note..........PM Me. I am looking to buy a side of beef. If you arrange to sell beef to the general public let me know what you have. I have been looking on KSL.


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## Trooper

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I have done my homework RIP. Not going to do yours. You have read all of the court orders, followed the timeline you would know in part what has taken so long for action. Has it been slow? Sure. Extremely? You bet. Excusable? Not really.
> 
> Not much different than us waiting for draw results.
> 
> On another note..........PM Me. I am looking to buy a side of beef. If you arrange to sell beef to the general public let me know what you have. I have been looking on KSL.


...also in the market for a side of beef.


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## Fowlmouth

Mr Muleskinner said:


> He said he would continue holding a daily news conference; on Saturday, it drew one reporter and one photographer, so Mr. Bundy used the time to officiate at what was in effect a town meeting with supporters, discussing, in a long, loping discourse, the prevalence of abortion, the abuses of welfare and his views on race.
> "I want to tell you one more thing I know about the *****," he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, "and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids - and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch - they didn't have nothing to do. They didn't have nothing for their kids to do. They didn't have nothing for their young girls to do.
> "And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?" he asked. "They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I've often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn't get no more freedom. They got less freedom."
> 
> Racists Pigheaded Bigot "Patriot" that does not follow the law.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/u...ming-a-hero-in-the-west.html?hpw&rref=us&_r=0


 That is some messed up $hit right there. It's one thing to have a conflict over some land, but to start up with that garbage is sickening. I think those statements are going to bite him in the a$$ for a long time.


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## RandomElk16

Trooper said:


> ...also in the market for a side of beef.


I am always interested!


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## wyoming2utah

Good laugh:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/625136?from=fb_share


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## mikevanwilder

This guy is a real piece of work!!! Mr. Bundy just ruined everything he just did.


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## RandomElk16

On the ol' KSL now:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=29614977&ni...or-racist-remarks&fm=home_page&s_cid=topstory


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## #1DEER 1-I

mikevanwilder said:


> This guy is a real piece of work!!! Mr. Bundy just ruined everything he just did.


Good, I hope we all get to see him burn up in flames.


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## klbzdad

My official response to Cliven Bundy couldn't be put any clearer and this is my final comment on the matter:


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## bowgy

klbzdad said:


> My official response to Cliven Bundy couldn't be put any clearer and this is my final comment on the matter:
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-v1TTUyhM


Okay, a simple wrong would have done just fine but......

I can't believe this is still going, I check back several days later and this post is pages longer. I guess Cliven got what he really wanted and that is national attention. JMHO


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