# This is why I shoot 405gr bullets



## manysteps

I may get railed for this, but I really don't care... the point is, I'm proving a point I personally believe in.

We were hunting this season on the muzz hunt, and it just happens to be the evening that my wife shows up with my 13 year old son. This is his first hunt where he has a tag, and by gosh, it's his hunt now.

I can't load him with 100gr/405gr powder/dead (er lead) combo like I use because well, he might not hunt anymore. Instead he has a 50 cal. patched round ball with 80gr of loose powder. (still deadly as hell)

It's late in the evening (nearly too dark to shoot), and we're on our way back to camp, and up ahead is a truck parked in the middle of the road. (sound familiar? I'm sure it does, but this isn't one-eye)

Beside the truck is a guy with a muzz, aiming at the hill, and he shoots.

I look towards the general area where he shoots and I see a deer running along the hill.

To me, at that moment, the deer looks like he might be gut shot.

I bail out of the truck, cap my rifle, look at my dad, and say... "I'm going to put this one down for these guys."

I aim at this running buck 100 yards away and fire.

The buck goes down like a rock.

The other hunter--who's about 40 yards away--looks at me funny, and I said, "Is that a good enough kill shot for you?". (boy, that didn't quite come out like I intended it to)

So I had to do another follow up shot, not at the deer, but the words I'd used, so I said--"I shot him so you guys wouldn't have to chase him over the mountain"

The other guy says, "We missed, all three of us".

I said, "He looked like he was hit to me, so I was just putting him down."

They come down to where I am, and we talk a bit about the situation, and then they propose a deal... If there are two holes in it, it's their deer, one hole, it's mine.

I say, fine by me, and we head out to find it...

We get to where the deer is, see it, and it jumps up--just to immediately fall down, so I put a bullet in the back of it's head to make sure it stays down.

Then I said, "Well, now there are two holes for sure, what's next, a leg wrestle?"

We laugh about that, go down to the deer... they turn it over 5 or 6 times, see only my shots and grant me my buck. (which I gut, etc... you guys know how the rest of that part of the story goes... [Except for the pictures which I'll post later when Bears Butt gets around to showing them to me])

Okay, so now that I've shown another example of the whole 1-eye incident that DOES happen, let me get back to the reason I'm posting this in the first place.

I am NOT proud of this shot, I'm proud of killing a deer quickly, I'm proud that my kids got to see a quick kill, and I'm proud that the other hunters were gracious enough to understand that they missed. (and if you're road hunting along with all the other "crazies", it's fair game if it isn't hit yet)

Anyway, politics aside, it was clear that I was the one that not only hit the buck, but I was also the one that killed it.

The crazy stuff came today when I processed it.

I hit him in the REAR... not back in the liver... THE HIND QUARTERS!

I lost way more meat than I'd ever want to, but it is what it is, but it brings me back to WHY I shoot the bullets that I do.

A round ball would NEVER put a deer down like this 405gr hollow point did... ESPECIALLY not at 100+ yards.

I hit him in the rear haunch, the bullet hit the opposite thigh, and completely DEVISTATED the opposite quarter. Somehow, the bullet never penetrated the other side. (enough bone did to show me an exit wound that was 3" wide though)...

I'll end for now with pictures of the bullet after it was recovered.

Just something for you guys to think about before you give me a hard time about "over loading" for a deer. (let the games begin!)


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## utahgolf

so you talk for awhile with the guys and then walk over to the deer, only to see that it's still alive and you need to shoot it again? That's a quick kill? Hit them in the shoulder or somewhere near it and let that be the end of it.


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## manysteps

Ah yes, the games... I said I wasn't proud of the shot... I hit him in the ass, but the censors are gonna block that word... fortunately, 405gr of pure mayhem helped me (us) from tracking him across the dang country. He tried to run, but his rear end was useless to him.


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## sagebrush

manysteps i know your dad is a traditional guy and wouldn't shoot bullets with plastic on them. so are you crossing the fence and using a in-line? oh and rule #1 you do not shoot at animals that are running especially cross ways because you will end up shooting them in the hind quarters like you did.


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## Airborne

Nice Job on getting a deer, running shots are tough. Now be prepared to be heavily criticized by the holier than thou crowd. Again congrats!


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## PBH

I don't understand.

A. Did you actually want to harvest the deer prior to pulling the trigger? If not, then you should never had pulled the trigger.

B. If you thought the other hunters had already hit the deer, why would you want to pull the trigger on it?

I honestly feel like you should never pull the trigger on an animal unless you have full intent to put _*your*_ tag on it.

I recall when my sister-in-law shot her first deer. It was a long shot. She put the animal down immediately. When we hiked up to the deer it was still alive. She asked me to "finish it off". I replied by handing her my gun. It was her deer. She needed to finish what she started.


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## utahgolf

manysteps said:


> Ah yes, the games... I said I wasn't proud of the shot... I hit him in the ass, but the censors are gonna block that word... fortunately, 405gr of pure mayhem helped me (us) from tracking him across the dang country. He tried to run, but his rear end was useless to him.


no games, just our definitions of a quick kill are two different things.... But yes, I guess if you are going to take/make a bad shot, you might as well shoot a really big bullet. :shock:


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## manysteps

PBH said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> A. Did you actually want to harvest the deer prior to pulling the trigger? If not, then you should never had pulled the trigger.
> 
> B. If you thought the other hunters had already hit the deer, why would you want to pull the trigger on it?
> 
> I honestly feel like you should never pull the trigger on an animal unless you have full intent to put _*your*_ tag on it.
> 
> I recall when my sister-in-law shot her first deer. It was a long shot. She put the animal down immediately. When we hiked up to the deer it was still alive. She asked me to "finish it off". I replied by handing her my gun. It was her deer. She needed to finish what she started.


I really did want to tag that deer, and I was very pleased when I got to do just that.

That said, when I took the shot, the intention was to kill the deer before it ran away wounded.

We all want an instant kill, but we all know that stuff happens, and we don't always get that.

By the opinion of some here, I wonder if you guys think I should let a wounded animal run away so the hunters that wound it learn a lesson? I don't get that thinking.

Last, to address another question, I shoot traditional as well, but the 1/48 twist in my gun only likes powerbelts or roundballs... if I want the punch, I go with the powerbelts.


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## Trooper

Why so judgmental everybody? I didn't see anything but fair play here. I pretty much always presume an animal that is shot at is hit and if it is still running, everyone who legally can, should anchor it. That's only fair to the animal and will save everyone a lot of heartache. Don't want other people to shoot an animal you've wounded? Then either stay away from other people or shoot straighter! I thought Manysteps did everything right. He saw a wounded deer, you have to take the shot you have. Once an animal is hit, you can't be worried about wounding shots, that cat is out of the bag. Second, he talked to the other hunters and worked out a fair deal for everyone. Third, he accepted that hunting isn't always pretty. You take responsibility for that part of the game too. I say nice job.


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## Pumpgunner

I won't try to make a judgement on whether that was the right or wrong thing to do but if I was in your shoes at that place and time I know I would have wanted to do the same. I've been in a somewhat similar situation myself. Last year I had a buck antelope tag, which on the unit I was hunting was running concurrently with a doe hunt. I shot my buck by 9am on the opener, got him boned out and in the cooler and as we were driving out we passed by a guy stopped in the road shooting at a doe on the hillside. He had gut shot her on his 1st shot and we watched him shoot at least 5 more times, from 50 yards, missing her on every shot. Mind you that this was with a centerfire rifle. She was standing broadside, head lowered, guts hanging out. It was one of the most pitiful things I've ever seen and I really had to stop myself from pulling out my rifle and finishing her off. Not having a doe tag I didn't really have the choice but if I had it would have been mighty tempting.
There have been several times in the marsh that I've used my dog to recover wounded birds for other folks, I even got a stud drake canvasback a few years ago that some guys had hit and wounded and not bothered to follow up on. I thought about taking it by their blind but decided against it and kept it for myself (and it was delicious!) I'm just glad that things worked out for you the way they did, sounds like you came across a good bunch of other hunters.


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## Nambaster

manysteps would be a good asset to have on a hunt. The back up guy to ensure that your shot counts. I can think of a few hunts where it would be nice to have some random guy with a traditional muzzleloader and a beard with a 405 grainer ready to exercise authority. I just want to see pictures of the buck...


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## manysteps

Here you go Nambaster...


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## utahgolf

Trooper said:


> Why so judgmental everybody? I didn't see anything but fair play here. I pretty much always presume an animal that is shot at is hit and if it is still running, everyone who legally can, should anchor it. That's only fair to the animal and will save everyone a lot of heartache. Don't want other people to shoot an animal you've wounded? Then either stay away from other people or shoot straighter! I thought Manysteps did everything right. He saw a wounded deer, you have to take the shot you have. Once an animal is hit, you can't be worried about wounding shots, that cat is out of the bag. Second, he talked to the other hunters and worked out a fair deal for everyone. Third, he accepted that hunting isn't always pretty. You take responsibility for that part of the game too. I say nice job.


I'm not judging about the dispatching of a wounded deer, I would've taken a running shot if my buddy had wounded a deer.....I'm just missing the part about the "quick kill" that he was proud to show everyone... Seems anything but quick with the scenario he described.


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## manysteps

utahgolf said:


> I'm not judging about the dispatching of a wounded deer, I would've taken a running shot if my buddy had wounded a deer.....I'm just missing the part about the "quick kill" that he was proud to show everyone... Seems anything but quick with the scenario he described.


15 minutes from the shot to gutting a deer seems pretty quick to me.


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## utahgolf

manysteps said:


> The buck goes down like a rock.
> 
> The other hunter--who's about 40 yards away--looks at me funny, and I said, "Is that a good enough kill shot for you?". (boy, that didn't quite come out like I intended it to)
> 
> So I had to do another follow up shot, not at the deer, but the words I'd used, so I said--"I shot him so you guys wouldn't have to chase him over the mountain"
> 
> The other guy says, "We missed, all three of us".
> 
> I said, "He looked like he was hit to me, so I was just putting him down."
> 
> They come down to where I am, and we talk a bit about the situation, and then they propose a deal... If there are two holes in it, it's their deer, one hole, it's mine.
> 
> I say, fine by me, and we head out to find it...
> 
> We get to where the deer is, see it, and it jumps up--just to immediately fall down, so I put a bullet in the back of it's head to make sure it stays down.


Just reading what you wrote, you made it sound like a one shot kill at the start, and then that you shot the breeze with the guys for a little while, then made your way down, only to find a crippled deer. Didn't sound quite like the quick, clean kills we associate with... But sounds like now the deer wasn't suffering for very long. so my bad. and indeed a very quick kill for a "road hunting, firing squad at a running deer" scenario that we've been reading about of late.


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## manysteps

The buck dropped, seemingly dead in its tracks, so we were all surprised when he tried to jump up... knowing what I know now about where I hit him, it certainly wasn't as clean as we originally thought.

You make fine points Utahgolf, but as you said, he didn't suffer long at all. (thanks to a whole ton of lead... a smaller bullet would have only resulted in a very long drawn out pursuit)


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## Nambaster

I gotta ask about the ziplock bag in the hands of the red head kid with the stubby muzzleloader... Is that your son with the heart and liver?


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## utahgolf

manysteps said:


> The buck dropped, seemingly dead in its tracks, so we were all surprised when he tried to jump up... knowing what I know now about where I hit him, it certainly wasn't as clean as we originally thought.
> 
> You make fine points Utahgolf, but as you said, he didn't suffer long at all. (thanks to a whole ton of lead... a smaller bullet would have only resulted in a very long drawn out pursuit)


I love big bullets for deer cause there's no such thing as too dead. I shoot my elk load for deer. 290 grain barnes.


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## manysteps

Nambaster said:


> I gotta ask about the ziplock bag in the hands of the red head kid with the stubby muzzleloader... Is that your son with the heart and liver?


Yes sir.


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## wyogoob

I don't have a dog in this fight but I do have one question Brandon:

How was the liver and onions?


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## manysteps

Most excellent!


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## GaryFish

Well, if I'm the other guys that hit it first, and then someone else shoots it, and then I discover the other guy blew its hind quarters to mush with a "quick kill," I'd concede the deer to them also. Good job. I guess. :?

I guess one thing we do know - manysteps WAS the second shooter, on the grassy knoll.


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## manysteps

GaryFish said:


> Well, if I'm the other guys that hit it first, and then someone else shoots it, and then I discover the other guy blew its hind quarters to mush with a "quick kill," I'd concede the deer to them also. Good job. I guess. :?
> 
> I guess one thing we do know - manysteps WAS the second shooter, on the grassy knoll.


None of them actually had hit the animal, if they had, they would have been taking it home.


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## BPturkeys

I don't know, but something just don't seem right with what you did. What if the guys really had hit the deer and were just trying to reload so they could finish it off? It's not like you was being a good Samaritan and shooting some poor wondered deer that you stumbled upon, you stepped into the middle of another hunters hunt. I know, all's fair in love and war and as long as the deer was still moving, but you had know way of knowing if that deer could have run another mile or dropped dead in the next 5 feet. 
I personally would never, ever, step into the middle of another man's hunt unless specifically ask to help by that hunter.


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## manysteps

BPturkeys said:


> I don't know, but something just don't seem right with what you did. What if the guys really had hit the deer and were just trying to reload so they could finish it off? It's not like you was being a good Samaritan and shooting some poor wondered deer that you stumbled upon, you stepped into the middle of another hunters hunt. I know, all's fair in love and war and as long as the deer was still moving, but you had know way of knowing if that deer could have run another mile or dropped dead in the next 5 feet.
> I personally would never, ever, step into the middle of another man's hunt unless specifically ask to help by that hunter.


I can see how you would feel that way BP, I guess we each have our own opinions on how to handle the situation. Maybe the guys would have been angry with me for putting their deer down, maybe not. I knew the "risk" I was taking by "helping them out".

We had a similar situation last year on our Deseret cow hunt... other hunters were taking 500 yard "pot shots" at a herd, and had wounded two cows. (one gut shot, one broken leg)

Dad put the gut shot cow down, and the other hunter's guide got all over our guide for letting him do it. Our guide said, "is the cow dead? Then have your hunter tag it!"

My opinion is to kill the animal as quickly as possible.


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## GaryFish

If I had been the other hunter, and HAD hit the deer, and saw that you had blown the rear end off, I'd say "enjoy YOUR deer." 

This post started as "How 1-I should have handled things." 

I think the thing you did that was good, was to talk to the other hunters and somehow work together on this. However, doing so AFTER you shot the deer is not the time to do that.

I also think it was good that you took the deer you killed. 

I don't think it was good that you felt it necessary to intervene. It turned out alright, since the initial assumption that the other hunters had hit it, was incorrect. From what you presented, it sounds like an attempt to show-off in front of your son, and take a shot at a running animal. It turned out OK in the end, but it seems like the real lesson you are trying to point out here -
-It's OK to intentionally intervene in someone else's hunt in an instant
-It's OK to shoot at running animals

Quite honestly, I don't see what this has to do at all in relation to 1-I's story. 

I'm glad you had a successful hunt. I don't know you personally. Never met you. I might have a different opinion if I did. But based on this story alone, I know I would never want to hunt with you.


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## longbow

If I had wounded a buck and Manysteps dropped it from across the canyon I would be thankful to him for not letting it get away. I would expect some hunters to come down and try to claim it as his own, which it probably should be. Manysteps was just finishing it off (at least he thought) for the other guys with no intention of taking it. I'd share a camp with Manysteps.


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## manysteps

GaryFish said:


> If I had been the other hunter, and HAD hit the deer, and saw that you had blown the rear end off, I'd say "enjoy YOUR deer."
> 
> This post started as "How 1-I should have handled things."
> 
> I think the thing you did that was good, was to talk to the other hunters and somehow work together on this. However, doing so AFTER you shot the deer is not the time to do that.
> 
> I also think it was good that you took the deer you killed.
> 
> I don't think it was good that you felt it necessary to intervene. It turned out alright, since the initial assumption that the other hunters had hit it, was incorrect. From what you presented, it sounds like an attempt to show-off in front of your son, and take a shot at a running animal. It turned out OK in the end, but it seems like the real lesson you are trying to point out here -
> -It's OK to intentionally intervene in someone else's hunt in an instant
> -It's OK to shoot at running animals
> 
> Quite honestly, I don't see what this has to do at all in relation to 1-I's story.
> 
> I'm glad you had a successful hunt. I don't know you personally. Never met you. I might have a different opinion if I did. But based on this story alone, I know I would never want to hunt with you.


I know you didn't intend it, but I do take offense to the assumption that I might be showing off for my son.

I HATE running shots, and had I known the buck was unscathed, there is NO WAY I would have taken that shot... in fact, I would have been encouraging my son to be ready to take the buck if it stopped within range. (Yes, regardless of the other hunters... they had their chance to kill it)


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## utahgolf

manysteps said:


> in fact, I would have been encouraging my son to be ready to take the buck if it stopped within range. (Yes, regardless of the other hunters... they had their chance to kill it)


I'm sure that would've gone over real well! :-o


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## GaryFish

> I bail out of the truck, cap my rifle, look at my dad, and say... "I'm going to put this one down for these guys."
> 
> I aim at this running buck 100 yards away and fire.
> 
> The buck goes down like a rock.
> 
> The other hunter--who's about 40 yards away--looks at me funny, and I said, "Is that a good enough kill shot for you?". (boy, that didn't quite come out like I intended it to)


This is what gave me that impression. I apologize if I read that wrong.


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## wyoming2utah

So, the lesson you taught your son is that any time a buck or animal has been shot at we should assume that it has been hit and is wounded should fire off more shots at the animal to "finish" it off "quickly" even if it is running or a long distance out....? Sorry, but I ain't buying what you are selling either. To me, had someone else been shooting at the animal--whether I thought they hit it or not--I would let them figure out what to do next. At that point, I would leave and go somewhere else.

Also, had you "finished" off a buck I had wounded, you would be the one tagging it. To me, the one who "finishes" or "kills" the animal is always the one who should tag it. In fact, had you shot a buck I had wounded and killed it, I probably would have just left and never talked to you...


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## PBH

manysteps said:


> I HATE running shots, and had I known the buck was unscathed, there is NO WAY I would have taken that shot...


That's the whole problem -- you didn't know. You took a shot on an assumption. Lucky for you, things turned out OK.

Personally, I would have been offended had I shot a deer only to have another hunter put another shot into it. Like others have mentioned, I too would have looked at the blown-out hind quarter and said "I missed. Enjoy your deer".

too many assumptions running wild on these forums lately....


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## Nambaster

One thing that I love about this post is that it has the opposite effect of what was observed during 1-eyes hunt. Instead of 2 people fighting for the deer the 2 hunters are trying to get relief from the deer. That poor 2 point gave its life and now it is treated like a pregnant trailer park girl with bifocals.reggers::moony:

Not only that but now manysteps jr. is holding his heart and liver in a picture:mrgreen:hoto::becky: you have to agree that manysteps is definitely maximizing the use of resource on that buck. 

If everyone had each others back like manysteps there would probably be less blood tracking to do... and less rump roast too.... but atleast people would have liver and heart.... 

Thanks for posting I love the controversy on this thread.... Way better than the kind that just get started and everyone agrees and it dies and goes silent.


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## Guest

Why would you get involved when you never spotted the deer & had no hunting culture savy to let those who where shooting to make the choice if they wanted your help? wow, that would have gotten you in a pickle with most...


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## Duckholla

Boy...I can only speak for myself in this scenario, so I will. I can tell you that had I been the other hunters in this situation, I would have been very upset with you, and like others have said...probably would have granted you the deer and drove away just to get away from you. There are so many things in your story that I completely disagree with its hard to know where to start. As others have said...to each their own. This story illustrates perfectly the reasons I elect to hike miles and miles and miles before my weapon even gets unsheathed. If I can avoid some trigger happy dude "wanting to help me" I will. I don't want to offend you manysteps, but perhaps I'll offer some different perspective?

Rather than judge you too harshly, I wonder if you considered the following before you pulled the trigger:

What if the shooter was a 14 year old boy on his first deer experience, and you just welcomed him into this sport by shooting this deer out from underneath this poor kid?

What if this was a first time hunter, and he wasn't a youth, does that make a difference?

What if that deer had walked 10 more feet and tipped over dead?

What if it was a perfect shot, and you just couldn't tell from 100 yards away? Seems likely...(by the way, by doing what you did, you just ruined 1/4 of that deer if it had been perfectly shot.)

In the initial post you pronounce concern for the animal, and wanting a quick kill. In another post, you say you would have let your son shoot him regardless of the other hunters. Sounds to me like your mind was made up the moment you laid eyes on the buck that given the opportunity, you were going to shoot. That's a life lesson you're teaching to your son, not just a hunting lesson. Only your son can say what lesson he learned there, but the fact that you state 'I know I'm going to catch crap for this' is evidence enough that the situation could have been handled better, no? Common courtesy for the other hunters garners several other options, even some that may still end with the same results. I'm not sure manysteps, I'm trying to see your side of this story, but genuinely having a hard time seeing any justification here. Others have said, "good on ya for helping out." I say, help wasn't solicited, and may not have been needed! Once he "gut shot" that deer as you assumed, it's his responsibility to finish him, not yours unless he asked for help. Some say, "good on ya" for communicating with the other hunters and working out a plan, I say...did you really leave them any other choice? That scenario could have ended WAY uglier than it did. Seems like a foolish gamble, especially with your children there.

Okay, maybe I am casting judgement. I don't mean to offend you manysteps. It's clear that you and I are VERY different...but I'm pretty certain that had the roles been reversed in this situation, and your son had just shot at that deer your post would have been MUCH different.

Take that for what it's worth. Just adding a different perspective...


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## manysteps

Duckholla said:


> Boy...I can only speak for myself in this scenario, so I will. I can tell you that had I been the other hunters in this situation, I would have been very upset with you, and like others have said...probably would have granted you the deer and drove away just to get away from you. There are so many things in your story that I completely disagree with its hard to know where to start. As others have said...to each their own. This story illustrates perfectly the reasons I elect to hike miles and miles and miles before my weapon even gets unsheathed. If I can avoid some trigger happy dude "wanting to help me" I will. I don't want to offend you manysteps, but perhaps I'll offer some different perspective?
> 
> Rather than judge you too harshly, I wonder if you considered the following before you pulled the trigger:
> 
> What if the shooter was a 14 year old boy on his first deer experience, and you just welcomed him into this sport by shooting this deer out from underneath this poor kid?
> 
> What if this was a first time hunter, and he wasn't a youth, does that make a difference?
> 
> What if that deer had walked 10 more feet and tipped over dead?
> 
> What if it was a perfect shot, and you just couldn't tell from 100 yards away? Seems likely...(by the way, by doing what you did, you just ruined 1/4 of that deer if it had been perfectly shot.)
> 
> In the initial post you pronounce concern for the animal, and wanting a quick kill. In another post, you say you would have let your son shoot him regardless of the other hunters. Sounds to me like your mind was made up the moment you laid eyes on the buck that given the opportunity, you were going to shoot. That's a life lesson you're teaching to your son, not just a hunting lesson. Only your son can say what lesson he learned there, but the fact that you state 'I know I'm going to catch crap for this' is evidence enough that the situation could have been handled better, no? Common courtesy for the other hunters garners several other options, even some that may still end with the same results. I'm not sure manysteps, I'm trying to see your side of this story, but genuinely having a hard time seeing any justification here. Others have said, "good on ya for helping out." I say, help wasn't solicited, and may not have been needed! Once he "gut shot" that deer as you assumed, it's his responsibility to finish him, not yours unless he asked for help. Some say, "good on ya" for communicating with the other hunters and working out a plan, I say...did you really leave them any other choice? That scenario could have ended WAY uglier than it did. Seems like a foolish gamble, especially with your children there.
> 
> Okay, maybe I am casting judgement. I don't mean to offend you manysteps. It's clear that you and I are VERY different...but I'm pretty certain that had the roles been reversed in this situation, and your son had just shot at that deer your post would have been MUCH different.
> 
> Take that for what it's worth. Just adding a different perspective...


No offense taken Duckholla. Your points are very valid. Each situation presents it's own version of what would any of us do.

These other hunters weren't complete strangers, we had spoken with them at length earlier in the hunt, so a lot of the questions you posed, I already knew the answer to.

Even with all that knowledge, I certainly didn't know them well enough for it not to have been a gamble... it was a knee-jerk reaction decision, and I'm glad it ended well.

The really fortunate thing is, I only lost 3 or 4 lbs of meat... 'course, on a young buck like that, it is quite a percentage.


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## Bears Butt

Great dialogue. 
So, yes I was with Manysteps on this....as he said, it was getting very close to "too dark" to be shooting at anything. We saw three men standing outside their truck, two reloading and we see the third one shoot. Now he is reloading as well.
The buck begins to run in our direction. Manysteps steps outside the truck, goes to the edge of the road as he caps and shoots. The buck rolls forward and then down the hill. To us, it is dead as dead can be.
His kids and wife are in the truck and yell out with a great hurrah! that their husband and dad just shot this buck, I was proud as well. 
He and I have been hunting many years and I have always instilled in him that if you get a chance to stop someone elses wounded animal to do it. Not that you are going to tag it, but you will save them hours and hours of tracking it, AND the animal will not suffer longer.
So, here is this apparently dead animal on the hill about 80 or so yards away and it's getting dark. The three gentlemen come down the road, all loaded up and Manysteps and they begin to talk. It is agreed among them all that if the animal has two holes in it, then it is theirs and nothing else needs to be said. If however there is only one hole in it, it will be tagged by Manysteps. They all agree and walk down and up to the animal, when then tries to get up. This by the way is the first the animal has moved since going down. How do I know this? I was watching it the whole time through my bincos. Mostly to mark it's position as it is now quite dark. I did not see one movement of the animal from the time it went down until they got close enough it tried to get up.
Manysteps put a bullet through its head and the other guys began to flip it over and over trying their best to find a (now third) hole it in...they could not and they left Manysteps with his (now dark) task of gutting the animal. When they came past the truck, I talked to them about how they thought they had hit it and the first guy that shot said "I thought I saw it hunch when I shot". The other two were trying to anchor it for him. But when we came along the third guy was pulling his trigger on it. I told Manysteps wife when the 4 of them were walking toward the downed animal that it had not been hit and that when Manysteps had shot, the animal was just plain out getting out of Dodge and was not hit.
In this situation Manysteps did the right thing (in my opinion) to put the animal down for those guys (had they actually hit it), but that if he did and they wanted to tag it then it would be theirs...plain and simple...(just like he said I shot the other guys gut shot elk last fall, which I did and I was NOT expecting the other hunter to relinquish it to me just because I shot and killed it). As it turned out, Manysteps took a long running shot (100 yards with a muzzy) and hit it in the hip, breaking the opposite ball socket bone and putting the animal down.
Back at the road, had they said "We hit it first and we will claim it", we would have driven on letting them have it. No sense in getting all huffy over a stupid deer.
Manysteps did the right thing. It was getting dark and a decision had to be made....he made it and life went on.

Now let me add a little bit more info about these three gentlemen.

The next day, again, Manysteps and his crew of truck riders were going down the road and stopped to talk to some other road hunters. They were small talking when suddenly a buck came running around a point of a hill and heading their way. Everyone was surprised to see a mid day buck running their way. Everyone baled out and started to cap up their guns. The buck continued their way and one of the guys popped a cap and the buck went down...dead! No sooner had that happened then these same 3 guys came over the hill. They had been chasing this buck for hours, as they had wounded it. They yelled down to Manysteps and the others about the buck and of course the guy who put it down pointed to it and said it didn't look to be wounded to him when it ran past, but that they could tag it if they wanted. They thanked them for putting it down and made their way to it to process it.

Now, everyone, don't you think this entire scenario is how we all should be taking care of each other? Why let an animal suffer longer than necessary? Why put "the chasers of the wounded game" go on for hours? I say, if you have the chance to end the animals misery and put the ones who have wounded it on top of it "dead" then do it! But I also have to say this: If they chose NOT to tag it YOU best be prepared to tag it, Shot to crap or not. Trust me, I have seen animals with over 10 shots in them still trying to get away and when the first guys that hit it came up to it after my friend put it down for the count, they didn't want it because of all the holes in it, my friend tagged it and he only shot once. When we processed it we only had about 10 pounds of salvaged meat. SAD! Nuff said.


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## manysteps

In the second scenario--I wasn't going to mention that, but since you brought it up--the deer was running like a banshee, no apparent wound at all, he was just getting away from these "guys" that have been chasing him for the last two freaking hours!

When he stopped, one of our group--the ones I'd stopped to BS with--put him down. The buck ducked under some sage, and I couldn't see him, but I knew he hadn't gone further than a yard from where he was shot.

"Our" three hunters head in a "sweeping" pursuit, my son as one of them... 

Now, before I go any further, let me make something clear...

We have heard through the grapevine that these guys have injured a deer in this general area, and they're on pursuit of this buck.

When he "popped up", my 8 year old son spotted him, and there was no vehicle or hunters anywhere in our view.

Just about the time the hunters started to walk up on where the buck was last seen, these other three hunters popped over the top of the ridge.

I see them, and knowing they had been in the area, I yelled to them to tell them where the buck was last seen, so now we have six guns ready for this buck if he isn't dead yet.

Eventually they get to where the buck was last seen, and from his position, my son yells to one of the other hunters to point out where the buck is... "our" hunter sees it, and puts another round in it just as it tries to rise.

With the buck down, I call my son back to the truck so we can go hunting... it isn't his buck.

"Our" guys know it wasn't hurt before, but they ask if those guys want it, they say yes, and it's end of the story. 

If we had the luxury to examine that buck like I got to with mine, you'd find one shot through the heart, and wherever else "our" guy put the second shot in to put it down for good.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter other than those guys got to harvest a buck. (I have no idea how the leg wrestle went over which one though)

They're really nice guys, and I'd camp with them anytime. Maybe one of them's on the forum here, and he'll hear this story and say, "Your jerk!", I have no idea... I can only express my perspective on the situation, but "our" guy would have gladly tagged that second buck, but once they'd "claimed" they had wounded it earlier, he said congrats and left them to the messy stuff so he could get back to hunting.


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## utahgolf

sounds like a bunch of road hunters blasting away at deer like usual and then sorting it out after ..... They need to make CSI road hunting deer kits to see who drew first blood. ;-)


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## Nambaster

I got on this thread to read about a deer hunting story but in the end I have now heard 2... I say keep them coming... :mrgreen:


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## manysteps

utahgolf said:


> sounds like a bunch of road hunters blasting away at deer like usual and then sorting it out after ..... They need to make CSI road hunting deer kits to see who drew first blood. ;-)


If road hunting wasn't so comical, what would you have?

It's really funny when I think back to the time I was still-hunting as a bow hunter (16 or so), I have a nice buck I'm stalking up real quiet on when an arrow goes under the buck and lands at my feet... I jumped up, scared the buck off, and let the other hunter aware of my presence... it happens away from the road too guys. (and he was far from cordial about me scaring that two point off)


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## longbow

Bears Butt said:


> Now, everyone, don't you think this entire scenario is how we all should be taking care of each other? Why let an animal suffer longer than necessary? Why put "the chasers of the wounded game" go on for hours? I say, if you have the chance to end the animals misery and put the ones who have wounded it on top of it "dead" then do it.


Mr. Bears Butt, my respect for you just went up a couple notches.


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## longbow

By the way Bears Butt, I saw you sneaking around the other day and snapped a picture. You really need to shave. :mrgreen:


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## Longgun

Nambaster said:


> One thing that I love about this post is that it has the opposite effect of what was observed during 1-eyes hunt. Instead of 2 people fighting for the deer the 2 hunters are trying to get relief from the deer. That poor 2 point gave its life and now *it is treated like a pregnant trailer park girl with bifocals*.reggers::moony:
> 
> Not only that but now manysteps jr. is holding his heart and liver in a picture:mrgreen:hoto::becky: you have to agree that manysteps is definitely maximizing the use of resource on that buck.
> 
> If everyone had each others back like manysteps there would probably be less blood tracking to do... and less rump roast too.... but atleast people would have liver and heart....
> 
> Thanks for posting I love the controversy on this thread.... Way better than the kind that just get started and everyone agrees and it dies and goes silent.


As enlightening as a few of these threads have become lately... can you better explain the bolded segment of your trailerpark example? ;-) :shock:


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## Bears Butt

Thanks for the picture Longbow! I'll be using that sometime in the future if you don't mind.


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## wyoming2utah

Bears Butt said:


> Now, everyone, don't you think this entire scenario is how we all should be taking care of each other? Why let an animal suffer longer than necessary? Why put "the chasers of the wounded game" go on for hours? I say, if you have the chance to end the animals misery and put the ones who have wounded it on top of it "dead" then do it! But I also have to say this: If they chose NOT to tag it YOU best be prepared to tag it, Shot to crap or not. Trust me, I have seen animals with over 10 shots in them still trying to get away and when the first guys that hit it came up to it after my friend put it down for the count, they didn't want it because of all the holes in it, my friend tagged it and he only shot once. When we processed it we only had about 10 pounds of salvaged meat. SAD! Nuff said.


Hmmm....no, I don't think this entire scenario is how we should all be "taking care of each other"! Again, this "scenario" assumes way too much...the first is that the animal is wounded. But, more than that, maybe the hunter doesn't want your "help"! The last thing I want is for someone else to finish off my animal (at which point it definitely isn't my animal any more)! I think as hunters we should plan on finishing what we start...!


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## utahgolf

I wouldn't shoot at another persons animal unless asked to and I definitely wouldn't start firing at the same buck that others had already started shooting at....I would be pretty upset if I had made a decent shot and that buck was going to tip over dead soon but some guy comes along and blasts the back end off... and I definitely wouldn't want to involve a young kid in what could happen with the after math of the "claiming" argument. That's about all I can say. Glad things worked out this time though.


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## PBH

wyoming2utah said:


> Hmmm....no, I don't think this entire scenario is how we should all be "taking care of each other"! Again, this "scenario" assumes way too much...


I keep thinking the same thing. Way too many assumptions going on.

What's up with all the people that are so trigger happy that they are just waiting for the opportunity to "put down" someone else's deer?

I don't get it. I guess that's the bow hunter in me. Wait for the deer to stop. Get closer. Then get even closer. Patience.

Seems like the lesson that everyone needs to learn is: Patience.


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## jahan

I haven't really posted on this site for over a year but I felt the need to comment on this post. 

I don't know how well people known Weasel and Bears Butt, but I can tell you what I know about them. Everything these guys do they do in a very selfless matter. They have volunteered numerous times helping out UWC on the Youth Turkey Hunt and when we took some underprivileged kids ice fishing. Bears Butt spend I would assume quite a bit of time making every kid and even other volunteers good luck charms out of the kindness of his heart. He would personally greet every kid with a huge warm welcome and they instantly felt welcome and comfortable. The list could go on, but let me get to my point. Knowing what I know of this group, they do things that they think are right. When I read this post I knew Brandon had only the best intentions to put down what he thought was a wounded animal. Now I personally wouldn't do that unless they were with my immediate group as I would not want any conflicts, but that is how these guys work. They want to put an animal down as quickly and ethically as possible. 

Another thing that some of you guys are getting hung up on is the way Brandon told the story. I would assume most know these fine gentlemen are very involved with mountain men activities. If anyone has ever been around these gentlemen you will know they know how to tell stories. They have a knack for telling stories and keeping folks entertained around the fire or anywhere for that matter. I guess what I am saying is don't get hung up on every word used and look at the overall message. Sometimes being a good story teller people think you embellish things or are being dramatic, it is just part of being a good story teller in my opinion.

Anyways, I said my two cents. I just wanted to vouch for these guys. I also wanted to point out while some may not agree with the way they went about it here are a few points to think about. First what they did was completely legal, second understand they weren't doing it to be jerks, and lastly at the end of the day it brought up a great opportunity to have a friendly debate. 

See you all in another couple years. -O,-


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## manysteps

Thanks Jeremy.


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## Mr Muleskinner

jahan said:


> I haven't really posted on this site for over a year but I felt the need to comment on this post.
> 
> I don't know how well people known Weasel and Bears Butt, but I can tell you what I know about them. Everything these guys do they do in a very selfless matter. They have volunteered numerous times helping out UWC on the Youth Turkey Hunt and when we took some underprivileged kids ice fishing. Bears Butt spend I would assume quite a bit of time making every kid and even other volunteers good luck charms out of the kindness of his heart. He would personally greet every kid with a huge warm welcome and they instantly felt welcome and comfortable. The list could go on, but let me get to my point. Knowing what I know of this group, they do things that they think are right. When I read this post I knew Brandon had only the best intentions to put down what he thought was a wounded animal. Now I personally wouldn't do that unless they were with my immediate group as I would not want any conflicts, but that is how these guys work. They want to put an animal down as quickly and ethically as possible.
> 
> Another thing that some of you guys are getting hung up on is the way Brandon told the story. I would assume most know these fine gentlemen are very involved with mountain men activities. If anyone has ever been around these gentlemen you will know they know how to tell stories. They have a knack for telling stories and keeping folks entertained around the fire or anywhere for that matter. I guess what I am saying is don't get hung up on every word used and look at the overall message. Sometimes being a good story teller people think you embellish things or are being dramatic, it is just part of being a good story teller in my opinion.
> 
> Anyways, I said my two cents. I just wanted to vouch for these guys. I also wanted to point out while some may not agree with the way they went about it here are a few points to think about. First what they did was completely legal, second understand they weren't doing it to be jerks, and lastly at the end of the day it brought up a great opportunity to have a friendly debate.
> 
> See you all in another couple years. -O,-


My son and I were a couple of the lucky recipients of those good luck charms. BB made us a some turkey dream catchers. Mine still hangs from my rear view mirror. They work well. My son bagged a 10" gobbler in the first two hours of the turkey hunt. Those old mountain men are as cool as the other side of pillow in our book.


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## longbow

Bears Butt said:


> Thanks for the picture Longbow! I'll be using that sometime in the future if you don't mind.


You are welcome to use it any way you want. Chuck.


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## CROC

I have always been a fan of the "Safety Shot".


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## colorcountrygunner

I figured I would come in on what this thread was actually supposed to be about: bullet selection. I agree with you on using a large projectile from a muzzle loader. I actually use a 425 grain great plains conical from a .54 caliber Knight. When that bore-sized .54 caliber bullet weighing 425 grains slams into an animal they know it. A couple years ago I shot my 3rd biggest buck, a nice 4 point in a head-on shot straight in the brisket and he dropped dead where he stood. My friends wife made the same shot that year on her buck with a 250 grain sabot, and it required a bloodless tracking job. Several years ago I made the same shot on a buck with a .50 caliber 350 grain TC maxi hunter, and the buck ran about 40 yards and tipped over. I found the slug just underneath the hide on his rump while I was skinning him out. That's complete north end to south end penetration!

I've also heard a few stories of elk that were not recovered when shot with a muzzle loader firing a light sabot. When it comes to muzzies, go big!


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## Critter

The problem is that most people that are hunting with a muzzle loader now days want it to perform like their high power rifle with little that resemble what makes muzzle loader hunting fun. They are using sabots on pistol bullets, pellets, shotgun primers, and scopes. When was the last time that you saw someone out on the ML hunt with a flintlock or sidelock muzzle loader shooting pure lead bullets with loose powder. 

There is something to be said about big bullets going slow that most animals can't stand up to.


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## DallanC

Critter said:


> When was the last time that you saw someone out on the ML hunt with a flintlock or sidelock muzzle loader shooting pure lead bullets with loose powder.


This year... until my boy noticed the hammer screw fell out somewhere. We hurried and ordered one (T/C uses a really odd screw size for that, 48threads/inch) ... didn't get here in time so he had to use my Rem the final couple days.

But yea, we drag the hawkin out every chance we get. I will admit though, its been rebarreled to a 1/28 twist, same as the inlines... it is crazy accurate for a swinghammer.

-DallanC


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## longbow

Critter said:


> The problem is that most people that are hunting with a muzzle loader now days want it to perform like their high power rifle with little that resemble what makes muzzle loader hunting fun. They are using sabots on pistol bullets, pellets, shotgun primers, and scopes. When was the last time that you saw someone out on the ML hunt with a flintlock or sidelock muzzle loader shooting pure lead bullets with loose powder.
> 
> There is something to be said about big bullets going slow that most animals can't stand up to.


Good post Critter.
Be ready, I'm going to drag this thread in a different direction. I'll preface this by saying I'm a big fan of getting close with bows/muzzleloader ("woodsmanship" as Tex says) and shooting from afar with a long range gun. But, let's keep bowhunting and muzzleloading primitive. You guys shooting at ungodly yardages with your bows aren't really bowhunting but just bowshooting at deer. Muzzleloaders? Same thing. Would you be just as successful with a flintlock as your inline tackdriver? You would if you reached down, grabbed your set and sneaked in a bit closer.


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## DallanC

My problem with that argument is that any of the modern replicas have so many advancements over historical guns its not even funny. NONE of them are truely primative. There are magnum 150grn Pyrodex pellet using, scope mounted, sabot barreled, composite stock based FLINTLOCKS out there (TC Black mountain magnum).

ALL our weapons have evolved in efficiency. I have muzzleloader tags going back to when it was a $10 extension to the rifle deer tag... its never been "primitive", its always just been a "Muzzleloader" season.

I am all for getting closer... I've killed truckloads of deer, many with my old 1976 Hawkin, but I cant remember a shot over 150 yards ever. On average, I think I've killed most at 75 yards. 

There will always be people attempting a 500 yard rifle shot, a 80 yard bow shot and a 300 yard ML shot... no matter what weapon restrictions you have. /shrug


-DallanC


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## longbow

So Dallan, maybe my argument is less against the evolution of primitive weapons but of us primitive weapon hunter's attitude about shooting distance. With all the modern bows and muzzleloaders out there it seems like "woodmanship" and getting close is out the window. I've said this before, there are two types of hunters, those that talk about how far they shoot and those who talk about how close their shot was. Even though I've killed many animals from over 600 yards away, none were as big of an accomplishment as the ones under 20.


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## DallanC

Oh I fully agree with that. Close is fun... I shot an elk with a bow from a ground blind once at a watering hole as a calf behind me was leaning over it and sniffing my hat, it honestly was touching me as I was at full draw on a different cow. Craziest experience in my hunting career.

I am not opposed to ML restrictions, but I always argue it needs to be component based, not gun based... there isn't enough difference in guns anymore to worry about other than a few hundredths of a second lock time. (although as a lefty, I hate firing my hawkin with my eyes so close to it... I also hate it doesn't have a safety).

Want to return ML season to its roots change the regs to this: Exposed ignition, #11 caps, loose powder, pyrodex or black powder, full bore lead projectiles. Done.


-DallanC


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## colorcountrygunner

DallanC said:


> Oh I fully agree with that. Close is fun... I shot an elk with a bow from a ground blind once at a watering hole as a calf behind me was leaning over it and sniffing my hat, it honestly was touching me as I was at full draw on a different cow. Craziest experience in my hunting career.
> 
> I am not opposed to ML restrictions, but I always argue it needs to be component based, not gun based... there isn't enough difference in guns anymore to worry about other than a few hundredths of a second lock time. (although as a lefty, I hate firing my hawkin with my eyes so close to it... I also hate it doesn't have a safety).
> 
> Want to return ML season to its roots change the regs to this: Exposed ignition, #11 caps, loose powder, pyrodex or black powder, full bore lead projectiles. Done.
> 
> -DallanC


5
This wouldn't change my hunting any.


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## BPturkeys

I personally think "governing, regulating, manageing"...what ever you call it...is way too complex. Take deer for example, anyone that wants to take a deer should be allowed to do so any time he wants with only very limited restrictions...i.e, number per year, season(a time of year that won't disturb breeding, etc), wasting meat, non-commercial use, etc,etc. All of this management, weapons restrictions, LE crap, ethical crap, pettiness between users of different weapons...it's all crap. The basic question should be, are we going to let people kill animals or not.


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## DallanC

Yea, as technology improves we head closer to 1 tag issued = 1 deer killed. Back in the 80s when we gave out 280,000 tags harvests were only a fraction of that. But the downside is more animals killed = fewer tags, thats the trade off.

Call me crazy, but I think todays "hunters" are way way more serious about hunting than those in the past, and todays fewer hunters have much higher success rates than those in the past. I certainly believe this is true when thinking about our old extended family deer camps. Lots of times the majority didnt get one... but today, of those who still hunt, most do get one... or two... three, an elk or two... couple antelope etc.


-DallanC


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## GaryFish

I think you're correct on that Dallen. The system of drawing out has pushed out the casual, social, family event hunters. But at the same time, I also think that hunters that are willing to jump through all the hoops and play the points game, also want a very different hunting experience than in the old days. And after waiting X number years for the premium tag, want a premium hunt. And that translates to bigger antlers. And in today's hunting, guys would rather pass on a small buck if it means that they can keep up with the chase for a few more days, even of that means going without. At least that seems to me to be how it is trending.


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