# Predator Management Poll



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I just wanted to take the temperature of hunters around here on predator management.

What would you support?

Any suggestions would be welcomed. 

Clarification on the "bonus" for Cougar or Coyotes: Bonus points instead of bounty for shooting Coyotes and Cougar. They can be redeemed for a wide variety of Big Game.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The hunting opportunity on lions in Utah is HUGE,,,,And has been for many years now..

Unlimited, over the counter H/O tags on these units year round hunting NOW......

Book Cliffs, Rattlesnake Canyon
4
11/18/09-11/13/10
Box Elder, Pilot Mountain
2
11/18/09-11/13/10
East Canyon, Davis
5
11/18/09-11/13/10
Fillmore, Oak Creek
8
11/18/09-11/13/10
Henry Mountains
4
11/18/09-11/13/10
Kaiparowits
7
11/18/09-11/13/10
La Sal
7
11/18/09-11/13/10
Nine Mile
12
11/18/09-11/13/10
San Juan, Elk Ridge
10
11/18/09-11/13/10
San Rafael
4
11/18/09-11/13/10
South Slope, Bonanza/Diamond/Vernal
15
11/18/09-11/13/10
South Slope, Yellowstone
6
11/18/09-11/13/10
Wasatch Mountains, Avintaquin
10
11/18/09-11/13/10
Wasatch Mountains, Cascade
9
11/18/09-11/13/10
Wasatch Mountains, Timpanogos
12
11/18/09-11/13/10
Zion
21
11/18/09-11/13/10
136



Unlimited, over the counter, H/O units opening a week from today....
Hunt #
Unit name
Res.
Non-res.
Limited-entry season dates
Harvest objective season dates
116
Central Mountains, Northeast Manti
11
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
117
Central Mountains, Northwest Manti
9
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
118
Central Mountains, Southeast Manti
10
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
119
Central Mountains, Southwest Manti
4
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
120
Fillmore, Pahvant
9
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
121
Mt. Dutton
9
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
122
North Slope, Three Corners
6
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
123
North Slope, West Daggett/Summit
9
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
124
Ogden
9
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
125
Panguitch Lake
9
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
126
Paunsaugunt
8
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
127
Pine Valley
16
2
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
128
Plateau, Boulder
8
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
129
Plateau, Fishlake
6
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
130
Plateau, Thousand Lakes
4
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
131
San Juan, Abajo Mountains
9
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
132
Southwest Desert
5
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
133
West Desert, Mountain Ranges
3
0
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
197112
Beaver
10
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
113
Book Cliffs, Bitter Creek
13
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
114
Cache
12
1
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10
115
Central Mountains, Nebo-West Face
18
2
11/18/09-2/28/10
3/6/10-5/31/10

That's pretty freak'in unreal if you ask me!
There's only a hand full of LE units that don't take this unlimited pressure right now.
How much more opportunity do you need?


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Goofy Elk,

I agree that seems like a lot of hunting opportunity I counted something around 200 HO tags.
That could be 10,000 deer saved from predation this yr. :shock: Not only an increase of 10,000 deer but 10,000 deer to reproduce more deer.  

One reason I like the bonus point idea for predators is to accomplish 2 things. 1. Encourage to harvest predators more actively. 2. Give more big game hunting opportunity to active hunters.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the deal,,,,It's not 200 HO tags.

It's 250+ HO cats,,UNLIMITED over the counter tags "permits" available to ANYONE...

Hears the problem,,Harvest objective quotas are higher on most units than there are
even CATS,,,,,And I'm dead serious,counting every kitten to boot.

Starting next week there are UNCAPED ,,UNLIMITTED,, harvest objective hunts open
for lion hunting on over 3/4 of the state of Utah....

Now go try and find a hounds men to help you out,,,,good luck.
90% of them wont touch it because there's so few lions even left.

There's only a few limited entry areas left that have a healthy population of lions on them.
Monroe happens to be one of them,,,and it has just recovered from and extermination
study bring the lion numbers down as low as 5 to study the impact on the deer herds..
Even when the lions were at there lowest point there ,,there was NO SIGNIFICANT
improvement of deer herds over a five year period.......

Once again,,I'm all for hunting lions,,And lions do eat deer,,But it's a much smaller piece
of the deer management puzzle than most hunters even realize..
For years the poor deer herds have been blamed on lions by many,,,And its NOT true.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

this is a fun subject sometimes to discuss. If you talk to a houndsman they will tell you there are no cougars. talk to a deer hunter and they will tell you there are to many cougars.

I have to look at the facts. the book cliffs, paunsaguant, fillmore oak creek, ect kills the crap out of the cougars and we have lots of does and herd is growing. all you have to do is look at the odds page for a houndsman. the hounds man don't want those tags and it will take one to two years to draw. why there are no top end/old cougars on those units? They have thinned the cats so to speak by giving out tags. 


Now look at monroe, central mountains, manti, nebo. they restrict the the harvest of cougars, houndsman want these tags and will wait longer in the draw to get a tag. This tells me there is an older age on the cats and more younger cats, cats of all sizes. Guess what on those same units the does are struggling and the deer seem to be declining.

Spin it however you want I think I know the answer to increasing deer herds.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Simple speaking I think giving out bonus points is one of the best ideas to be brought forward on this forum. Whether it is for predator control or service hours it costs the DWR nothing and benefits all of us directly.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

****, skunk, magpie, crow, and raven bounties!


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

I think if you bring the DWR proof of your coyote kills you should get a bonus point. Maybe 5-10 yotes per point? That would give me a **** good reason to go yote hunting more often.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> this is a fun subject sometimes to discuss. If you talk to a houndsman they will tell you there are no cougars. talk to a deer hunter and they will tell you there are to many cougars.
> 
> I have to look at the facts. the book cliffs, paunsaguant, fillmore oak creek, ect kills the crap out of the cougars and we have lots of does and herd is growing. all you have to do is look at the odds page for a houndsman. the hounds man don't want those tags and it will take one to two years to draw. why there are no top end/old cougars on those units? They have thinned the cats so to speak by giving out tags.
> 
> ...


So how does the Cache unit fit into your model SWBM??

Here is a unit that since the winter of 1992-93 has struggled to average around 70% of management objectives, among the lowest in the state. A predator mangement plan was put in place where the number of cougar tags issued went from 7 LE tags to 25 and sometimes more harvest objective tags with no female subquota. A lot of lion were killed on the unit the first couple of years. But eventually, as expected, the the harvest declined as the cougar population dwindled. It's been nearly 15 years since the harvest objective quota has been reached, lion poplations are at an all time low on the unit, yet the deer herd continues at around 70% of management objectives.

It's apparent that killing lions did not bring back the deer. The number one cause of fawn mortality continues to be disease and malnutrition, and as long as we ignore this, deer herds will continue to struggle. For those that think you can bring back deer populations by harvesting more lions, prepare yourself for disappointment. Sound deer management is not as simple as just killing more predators.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Kevin D said:


> Here is a unit that since the winter of 1992-93 has struggled to average around 70% of management objectives, among the lowest in the state. A predator mangement plan was put in place where the number of cougar tags issued went from 7 LE tags to 25 and sometimes more harvest objective tags with no female subquota. A lot of lion were killed on the unit the first couple of years. But eventually, as expected, the the harvest declined as the cougar population dwindled. It's been nearly 15 years since the harvest objective quota has been reached, lion poplations are at an all time low on the unit, yet the deer herd continues at around 70% of management objectives.
> 
> It's apparent that killing lions did not bring back the deer. The number one cause of fawn mortality continues to be disease and malnutrition, and as long as we ignore this, deer herds will continue to struggle. For those that think you can bring back deer populations by harvesting more lions, prepare yourself for disappointment. Sound deer management is not as simple as just killing more predators.


I agree to a point. The Cache deer are limited mostly due to habitat, or lack of quality winter range to be specific. Predators aren't the biggest limiting factor, but they still are a factor. I'm not sure of the current lion populations, but 6 years ago I lost my two best dogs in the Cache to two different mature toms. It was enough to have me give up being a houndsman. Both dogs had their skulls crushed, and we only got one of the toms, the other escaped to eat more deer.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Man you have a story for *EVERYTHING*, is there something that you don't do?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

> I agree to a point. The Cache deer are limited mostly due to habitat, or lack of quality winter range to be specific. Predators aren't the biggest limiting factor, but they still are a factor. I'm not sure of the current lion populations, but 6 years ago I lost my two best dogs in the Cache to two different mature toms. It was enough to have me give up being a houndsman. Both dogs had their skulls crushed, and we only got one of the toms, the other escaped to eat more deer.


Two dogs,,Two different toms,,skulls crushed????? :roll: You cant be serious are you?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Two dogs,,Two different toms,,skulls crushed????? You cant be serious are you?


Goofy, you claim that you know Jeff Swenson. He had a lion crush one of his dog's skulls and then it fell off a 60 foot cliff. This was down on the Fillmore Pahvant unit. The dog was worth a lot of money and it was one of his best dogs.

It does happen. My dogs had few battle scars from some big old toms.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I also think every deer/elk hunter should be given a lion tag that is valid for 365 days.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I have a cougar story. When I was a youngster I don't recall seeing really any predator kills afield. If we did it seemed to be noteworthy. (campfire talk) Really in the late 80s and throughout the 90s it was a common sight. Even 100 yds out of camp were lots of bones. Now fresher kills are a rarity again. And I have yet to see a dead elk. I am not a forensic scientist so I cant confirm these kills as cougar or coyote or even predation for that matter. However I'm talking the top of the mtn so unless their was a disease outbreak no one knew about and it wasnt winter kill. I don't know what else to conclude.

Its seems to be the general knowledge of professional and amateur biologists alike that a cougar will kill one deer per week. My threshold for acceptable big game loss due to predators is much lower than a houndsman of coarse. My threshold for acceptable predation lies some where in the realm of hwy loss or even poaching. 

20 poachers on Monroe shooting 20 deer a week yr round. And god knows how many part time poachers (coyotes) taking deer here and there and having a heyday during fawning. I wouldn't want 1 poacher on the mtn even if he promised to only shoot sick and old deer.

I have this outlook because I don't believe we could outright eradicate them all together. Predators that is. And if we were able to have that situation where with no or little predators big game herds were sick and diseased. I would reconsider. I tend to believe that wouldn't be the case.

Coyoteslayer, I too am of the thought that lion tag should be included into a big game lic. And maybe even a small game lic as well.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

A few years ago, my Dad and I went out coyote hunting. My dad blew a coyote locator call, and about a minute later there was a mountain lion stand on the road about 40 yards infront of us. We started driving up the road towards him and he just started on a slow trot up the road and then went off the road and jumped the creek and then just laid down on some grass. He started rolling over on his back. He was only 50 yds away.

He was really just begging for some lead. :lol: :lol: :lol: I wish we had a permit. It was a good size cat.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

This may not amount to a hill of beans but it did open my eyes a little about cats and deer...

A few weeks ago I have the chance to visit with an old time hunter. He was a Deer hunter at heart... DID I mention he has shot more 35 plus inch bucks than most of us have seen. But besides the point on his wall he had a picture of he an some family and also friends. I think there was 6 guys in the picture. It was black and white and ther was some dating vehicles, but I believe he said the 40's? Maybe it was the 50's?? But on that truck they had a total I believe of 12 lions, just a morning hunt the day before deer season kicked off. And let me tell ya the heads on these Cats.... WOW! SO we talked about how hard the lions hurt the Deer... He laughed an told me to stop being force feed this chit.... I asked then what? He told me that he and his family lived off of deer, ALL YEAR LONG! And just when the hunt came around we tried to shoot some of the big ones to show off to the family that came in to hunt. He then told me that the Deer started to fall off around the late 70's. He said that he found many starved out deer around late summer and early fall. He told me that it was "Blue Tongue". I guess that is when the deers tongue gets to big to eat or drink? Don't know how or why but it was interesting to listen to what he has seen. 
Before I left he told me that I might be able to find that picture in Price City hall. He mentioned some names and told me it was taken where today sites the city park.....


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> > I agree to a point. The Cache deer are limited mostly due to habitat, or lack of quality winter range to be specific. Predators aren't the biggest limiting factor, but they still are a factor. I'm not sure of the current lion populations, but 6 years ago I lost my two best dogs in the Cache to two different mature toms. It was enough to have me give up being a houndsman. Both dogs had their skulls crushed, and we only got one of the toms, the other escaped to eat more deer.
> 
> 
> Two dogs,,Two different toms,,skulls crushed????? :roll: You cant be serious are you?


Dead serious. Both dogs were top line dogs that I had bought two years previous from Van Johnson out of Dove Creek Colorado. I was into them two dogs almost $10K.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I agree to a point. The Cache deer are limited mostly due to habitat, or lack of quality winter range to be specific.


That's my point, yet I've never heard anyone stand up in a RAC meeting and demand that something be done to stop the spread of Asian cheat grass and Dyer's woad. No, it's always about the lions. Instead of granting bonus points for killing coyotes or cougars, why not give bonus points for improving a 40 acre section of critical winter range by controlling the spread of noxious weeds and planting more native browse species?? I know shovels aren't as fun as guns and require a lot more effort, but this makes infinitely more sense to me.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I was hoping to get a larger sample from this and future polls. I would want a minimum of 200 votes to get any kind of an idea of what we are all thinking.

Also I would appreciate any pm's with suggestions on how to better word or format my questions and polls to derive the information we need. 

Voting on my up coming series of polls will not determine the future of deer management in Utah but it is more important than you may realize. 

:V|: After decades of dismay. A fire has been lit under me and I have mobilized. This is my last stand. I am in the process of compiling a viable alternative to how Mule deer are managed in UT. With the help of you, my family, friends and other constituents off line. I will prepare a plan to be presented to the powers that be. "The average Joe plan."

Input is greatly appreciated and there are no crazy ideas other than nothing can be done.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Yikes, I have gotten a better sample on the phone in the last 4 days.   

Come on you guests  log on for 2 min and check your preference.


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

I like the bonusus for predators and I think all big game tags should have a cougar tag attached just in case! 8) 

I also like the idea of bonusus for doing habitat improvement work.


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