# Ethics Of Fishing During Spawn



## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

How do you all feel about fishing during spawning time.
I ask this because there is always a lot of interest when the Brown's spawn.

Several years ago, my son invited me to fish the Weber during the Brown Spawn.
We caught a lot of big browns and it took very little skill to do it.
Just slap a bug on the water and the fish were all over it.
I never did it again.
To me, it wasn't sporting and it was way too easy.
I also felt bad about pulling fish off of their beds.

I know that some feel that this doesn't bother the fish but I don't see how it cant.
According to some State Biologists, a hooked fish has about a 70% chance of survival after release.
A gut hooked fish has a much lower chance for survival.
Remember that bait is legal on much the Weber.

Why doesn't the State close fishing during the Brown Spawn like it does for Cutthroat and Kokanee.

There will be two sides to this and I want to hear both sides reasoning,
Grandpa D.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*

I seldom fish during the brown spawn because the hunts are on but I wouldn't have a problem with it being closed during the spawn.


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*

I've never given it much thought. I guess you can sort of compare it to hunting deer during the rut. It kinda makes it easier...

As long as it's legal, that's cool by me. I would prefer that people release them though. That way they could still perform their spawn duty.


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## HighmtnFish (Jun 3, 2010)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*

I enjoy fishing during the spawn, I like seeing the fish in their spawning colors and it's fun to sit there and watch them. I do feel that spawning fish should be protected. 
Several years ago I went with some buddies to Bear Lake to fish for some spawning lake trout. When we got there a guy handed me a size 0 treble hook and told me to aim for the tail. I was disgusted. I caught one fish that night (in the mouth) but I haven't been back since.
Another experience when i was in high school my dad and I ran down to the Boulder Mountain to Ice fish a lake that was rumored to have some trophy brookies in it. When we got there some guys cut several large holes in the ice with chain saws over spawning beds and were snagging the fish. They had some fish over 5 pounds but they were not proud of them when we saw how they were catching them. Two years later they closed the Boulder to fishing from November to April. I wish they would do more to protect the brookies during the spawn because i know they get slaughtered in October.


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*

Comparing closing the cuthroat spawn and closing the brown spawn is like comparing apples to oranges. There is absolutely nothing wrong with fishing for spawning brownies unless you are chucking gear or bait. But thtas a whole different story. Bait is for little fat kids. Your right, there is a lot of interest in spawning browns and it because of the color and body changes. Not because they are easy to catch.

TB


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*



trout bum said:


> Bait is for little fat kids.


 :lol: :lol:

I'm sure glad I'm not a little fat kid, I'm an 'elite' worm fisherman... 

Worm guy's don't bother the spawning browns either, they're still hard to catch. But even I, with no morals, leave the spawner's alone.


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## sinergy (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*



trout bum said:


> Bait is for little fat kids.
> TB


Thats funny o-||


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*

If someone is going out and targeting spawning redds so that they can catch fish, especially gear chuckers, ya I have a problem with that. I dont go out and target redds but I like to catch spawners because they are cool looking. And with the brownie population we have in utah rivers I dont think they need much protection.

QUOTE "According to some State Biologists, a hooked fish has about a 70% chance of survival after release."

Maybe a fish caught on bait or gear but not a fly.

TB


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*



Grandpa D said:


> Why doesn't the State close fishing during the Brown Spawn like it does for Cutthroat and Kokanee.


Hmmm, on one hand, we have reports of many of our rivers such as the middle and lower Provo and the Green being overrun with skinny brown trout and the DWR begging anglers to harvest more browns. On the other hand we have calls to close the rivers during the brown spawn.

A few questions of my own.

1. Are the browns suffering from the inability to spawn successfully with the current regs and pressure? *heck no!*

2. Are bait chuckers and evil :twisted: harvesters causing any brown fisheries to become depleted by their actions? *nope*

3. Considering that some are actively considering lowering autumn stream flows to *inhibit* brown spawning, I fail to see how fishing for, catching, and heck, even legally harvesting a few autumn browns will make any negative impact.

I still hit the Weber now and then but used to fish it a lot "back in the day" and looked forward to the autumn to catch some of my best browns. The regs back then were general regs and the Autumn flows often were butt puckeringly pitiful, esp during droughts. Yet the condition of the browns was always superb, with plenty of big ones. From what I have seen recently at the Weeb, it is still about as good. Based on what seems to be happening with the skinny, sickly browns on most of our AFL streams, it would appear that what we need is MORE baitchuckers, harvest, and low flows right now.

Instead of insulting the fat little kid wormfishing on the Weber, give him a pat on the back and a hearty Thank You!


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I feel it's my duty to stomp all the redds I can on the Provo to help the fishery.


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

protect spawning fish that need protection, but for most of the fisheries in this state, they are overpopulated and have too many kids as it is.

Is this some sort of Utah thing, by the way?


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## brookieguy1 (Oct 14, 2008)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*



HighmtnFish said:


> I enjoy fishing during the spawn, I like seeing the fish in their spawning colors and it's fun to sit there and watch them. I do feel that spawning fish should be protected.
> Several years ago I went with some buddies to Bear Lake to fish for some spawning lake trout. When we got there a guy handed me a size 0 treble hook and told me to aim for the tail. I was disgusted. I caught one fish that night (in the mouth) but I haven't been back since.
> Another experience when i was in high school my dad and I ran down to the Boulder Mountain to Ice fish a lake that was rumored to have some trophy brookies in it. When we got there some guys cut several large holes in the ice with chain saws over spawning beds and were snagging the fish. They had some fish over 5 pounds but they were not proud of them when we saw how they were catching them. Two years later they closed the Boulder to fishing from November to April. I wish they would do more to protect the brookies during the spawn because i know they get slaughtered in October.


I think I know the lake you're speaking of, and yes, it was disgusting. Guys out over the spawning springs on blankets with black plastic over them so they could see the fish better and snag 'em. Sad thing is, it was mainly the locals down there that thought they owned the Mountain. Same dirtbags that ride ATVs on the closed trails. Locals. It still happens, but at least the season closures slowed it down.


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

*Re: Ethics For Fishing During Spawn*

Instead of insulting the fat little kid wormfishing on the Weber, give him a pat on the back and a hearty Thank You![/quote]

I have no problem with little fat kids throwing worms...


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

I have no problem with it for browns- I don't do it though- don't tell me it takes a massive amount of talent to do it- been fly fishing way too long not to know better. Don't care whether you bait fish or hardware fish or fly fish you're going to kill some- just part of the sport- again I don't care if you do but to make it sound ( and it could be becasue it's written) that fly fishing for them is OK but other ways are not isn't a fact.


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

Let me clarify my position. Not that it really matters because it is MY position and nobody elses. I personally dont target redds. I catch spawning brown trout because I fish all year long and fall is included in that. Im not saying catching spawners with a flyrod is okay and gear is not. That is not the reason I am anti gear, there are plenty of others. I am saying targetting redds with anything is not okay. I do agree that the brown population is too high causing stunted fish in most of our rivers in utah and there does need to be some harvest.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I am a fisherman. I like to catch fish. If the fish are sitting on redds, I am going to target them and catch them--easy or not. The more fish I catch, the better I feel about the day of fishing. IF the fish needed protecting, rules and regulations would be set up to protect them. IF no rules are set up, I will fish for spawning brookies, browns, cutts, largemouth, smallmouth, or whatever other type of fish...


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Do all ethics have to be legislated? Can we learn to respect a resource or do we have to wait for someone to tell us to? 

I used to be a diehard C&R guy and wanted special regulations everywhere. I then went out on several ocassions with the DWR and did electroshock surveys on the Ogden River, Weber River, and Blacksmith Fork River. I found out real quick about too many brown trout and stunting. It is actually disheartening to see a brown that should be 18 inches and is only 12 inches, or one that is 18 to 20 inches with a big head and a snake like body. We could really help out some of our "brown trout" waters by taking a limit. My understanding is that even that might not have an impact. Please take a limit when fishing some of these waters. 

Now for my original question: If I'm fishing the Blacksmith and the law says I can keep 4 trout and it doesn't specify species, I will still release any cutthrout I catch because I know there are fewer of them. Legally, I can take them, but ethically (to me), I let them go. So, do we always have to have a law or someone else telling us what is ethical? We'd probably still have slave owners in the United States if we went with the idea that as long as it's legal I'm doing it regardless of "ethics".


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

HighNDry said:


> Do all ethics have to be legislated? Can we learn to respect a resource or do we have to wait for someone to tell us to?


You are exactly right. Why do we need someone to tell us that something is wrong so that we wont do it. That viewpoint is one of the many things that is wrong with society today. Common sence isnt very common anymore.


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> I am a fisherman. I like to catch fish. If the fish are sitting on redds, I am going to target them and catch them--easy or not. The more fish I catch, the better I feel about the day of fishing. IF the fish needed protecting, rules and regulations would be set up to protect them. IF no rules are set up, I will fish for spawning brookies, browns, cutts, largemouth, smallmouth, or whatever other type of fish...


Part of being a fisherman is being ethical. It is a fishermans responsibility to be aware of his actions and what they do to our fish and thier habitat. Wether all knowing DWR tells you to or not. Wow.


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> The more fish I catch, the better I feel about the day of fishing.


Fish numbers dont define success. There is a lot more to fishing than catching fish. Maybe next time you are out there maybe you need to take a look around and realize where you are and what you are doing. HOLY CRAP!! I could tear this thread apart. Everything about it is wrong.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Fish numbers don't always define success, but catching fish does! Isn't that the point of fishing? Some of you guys ride a mighty white horse and need to step off it sometimes...again, rules and regulations would be set up if the resource needed protecting. Sorry, but I find nothing evil, wrong, or immoral about catching fish on redds.

There is nothing wrong with fishing redds. Who is to say that you cannot respect a resource and still fish on redds? I am sorry, but I definitely don't buy into the idea that fishing on redds is unethical...

...just as I don't buy into the idea that fishing after the spawn is unethical because I might just walk over fertilized eggs after they have been laid and before they have hatched.

I get a real kick out of you ethics policemen!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

trout bum said:


> There is a lot more to fishing than catching fish.


There is? Hmmm...and here I always thought that was the point. So, you don't fish to catch fish? What in the hell do you fish for then?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

trout bum said:


> I am saying targetting redds with anything is not okay.


Why?


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

HighNDry said:


> Do all ethics have to be legislated? Can we learn to respect a resource or do we have to wait for someone to tell us to?


There is truth to this, however, at the same time, personal ethics are not universal for all people/anglers (in this case). For instance, this example;



HighNDry said:


> I will still release any cutthrout I catch because I know there are fewer of them. Legally, I can take them, but ethically (to me), I let them go.


I personally agree with this, and I don't think I have kept a river cutt in over 2 decades, but we cannot fly off the handle if we see someone that doesn't share our ethic and harvests one. We can educate, but we cannot dictate.

Now, back to the browns, and this quote.


trout bum said:


> It is a fishermans responsibility to be aware of his actions and what they do to our fish and thier habitat


1. Has fishing for spawning browns inhibited their ability to reproduce successfully in our streams? *NO*

2. Has any mortality associated with fishing for autumn browns either intentional (harvest) or not resulted in reduced spawning success or undesirable reductions in brown trout numbers? *NO*

3. Has unintentional or intentional redd disturbances resulted in inhibited spawning success for brown trout? *NO*

4. Are most anglers and definitely our DWR in agreement that most brown trout populations in our streams are too high? *YES*

So how in the heck can anyone make a reasoned case that Autumn brown fishing is unethical based on it being a danger to the resource? Sure they are a bit easier to catch then, but I also don't buy that they are supremely vulnerable either. If they were, then any old schmo could go catch a big one then and that sure as heck doesn't happen. I am forced to conclude that refusing to fish for Autumn/spawning browns on ethical grounds is based only on "warm fuzzies" sentiment and not sound reasoning and science. I would love to hear a scientifically based response that refutes the above statement.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Catherder said:


> 1. Has fishing for spawning browns inhibited their ability to reproduce successfully in our streams? *NO*
> 
> 2. Has any mortality associated with fishing for autumn browns either intentional (harvest) or not resulted in reduced spawning success or undesirable reductions in brown trout numbers? *NO*
> 
> 3. Has unintentional or intentional redd disturbances resulted in inhibited spawning success for brown trout? *NO*


The exact same answers are true for many of our cutthroat, brook trout, and rainbow trout fisheries as well (not to mention tiger trout, splake, and lake trout). So, if fishing for them is not inhibiting their ability to reproduce or having any kind of negligible effect on their numbers, why not fish for them? Is it because they are more vulnerable? IF yes, then doesn't that mean we should avoid fishing during certain hatches that also make fish more vulnerable?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I always find it interesting that many people who bash those who fish for browns on their redds turn around and have no issue going up and catching steelhead or salmon in the rivers they run each year. Why are they in the river in the first place? 

There are certainly places I would not target spawning fish on redds. Where a population is fragile, I won't do it. I have no problem doing it to browns on just about any river in Utah. In fact, I wouldn't even bat an eye at someone if they walked across the Green, Provo, Ogden, etc raking up a redd as they walk. That helps the river a lot more in these specific situations than forced ethics do. 

The funny thing about ethics is that they are personal. When someone starts preaching their ethics to someone else, it always gets to be a sticky situation. Just because they are your ethics, doesn't make them the ethical barometer for all to follow. So if ethics are needed for the health of a fishery, then yes, I think they should be legislated. Because no specific ethic is going to be universal to all. And who am I to say that my ethic is better than your ethic?


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Catherder said:


> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> > Do all ethics have to be legislated? Can we learn to respect a resource or do we have to wait for someone to tell us to?
> ...


I find everything you said above fairly agreeable except. "Sure they are a bit easier to catch then, but I also don't buy that they are supremely vulnerable either. If they were, then any old schmo could go catch a big one then and that sure as heck doesn't happen. " Now I am speaking of the fishes vulnerability not Billy Bob's ability & perserverance to search out one and find it. That's a different story- the 2 main reasons I don't fish browns during that time in Utah are- it really isn't that competitive *to me *and Upland game hunting is on.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

I know it's a different world and different ethics apply, but I also think there are some universal truths that apply to many situations. I'm not trying to dictate what is ethical or not. My great grandpa lived in Idaho near a small stream teaming with fish and near mountains abundant in wildlife, including big game. His Pa settled there for those reasons. They hunted and fished as needed for subsistance. It was difficult for them to understand the "new" game laws. Who were these government officials coming in and telling them that they could only take one elk or deer a year and that they had to limit the numbers of fish they caught? Why couldn't they set up at the mouth of the spawning creeks and fill gunny sacks full of spawners with pitchforks? This was food to be bottled for times of scarcity. To them, this was a good set of standards by which their family could adhere to as a way of life--it was ethical behavior in their eyes. We are not just talking about "morals" here. With the demise of some "native" species (which I know some of you could care less about...a fish is a fish is a fish), there has to be a set of standards to govern activities such as angling (use of a rod, line, lure, fly or bait), and in some regards limits of catch. Maybe for brown trout we don't need a limit. Maybe it is okay for Mr. Freezer to go out everyday and take a limit and do this day after day. When does it become unethical? When he throws the ones from last year that are freezer burned in the trash and replaces them with the "new" catches of the new season. Is that for me to judge? Should I report a poacher? I mean he may have a different set of ethics, right?


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## RnF (Sep 25, 2007)

TS30 said:


> I always find it interesting that many people who bash those who fish for browns on their redds turn around and have no issue going up and catching steelhead or salmon in the rivers they run each year. Why are they in the river in the first place?
> 
> There are certainly places I would not target spawning fish on redds. Where a population is fragile, I won't do it. I have no problem doing it to browns on just about any river in Utah. In fact, I wouldn't even bat an eye at someone if they walked across the Green, Provo, Ogden, etc raking up a redd as they walk. That helps the river a lot more in these specific situations than forced ethics do.
> 
> The funny thing about ethics is that they are personal. When someone starts preaching their ethics to someone else, it always gets to be a sticky situation. Just because they are your ethics, doesn't make them the ethical barometer for all to follow. So if ethics are needed for the health of a fishery, then yes, I think they should be legislated. Because no specific ethic is going to be universal to all. And who am I to say that my ethic is better than your ethic?


Agree with everything you said.

I would actually like to see the DWR make it mandatory to keep all fish caught on certain rivers during a spawn just to help thin out the populations. It would go a longs way to make some of the fisheries healthier. Too many fish means lots of small ones. The Green is a great example of this. It's actually become taboo to fish the redds there, when in all actuality it would probably help the fishing there.


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

What part of the Green is taboo to fishing redds?
This is the first that I have heard about it.


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## RnF (Sep 25, 2007)

I have floated the green several times and each time the guides told me to not fish the redds and then they talk about how mad it makes them when they see fisherman from shore walking right through the redds. It may not be taboo, but it seems looked down upon from my experiences. On that river I don't see it being a big deal.

But all in all, yeah it's not good to get into the habit of stomping all over the place on a river.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

"I don't like brown trout. In fact, I hate them. I hate everything about them. I hate their spawning redds and their fans. I hate everything. It felt really good to send those brown trout to their home water. Last year they poured Uinta Cutthroat Pale Ale on my family after fly fishing for them."

---Max Hatchery.


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

I think I am being misunderstood with some of my posts on this thread. As I said in my first post, "this is my position so it doesn't really matter". I am not trying to dictate my ethics to anyone else. Also as I stated earlier, I DO fish the fall and I DO catch spawning brownies and rainbows. I just don't target redds.

*"I wrote*:It is a fishermans responsibility to be aware of his actions and what they do to our fish and thier habitat.

"*Catherder wrote:*So how in the heck can anyone make a reasoned case that Autumn brown fishing is unethical based on it being a danger to the resource? Sure they are a bit easier to catch then, but I also don't buy that they are supremely vulnerable either. If they were, then any old schmo could go catch a big one then and that sure as heck doesn't happen. I am forced to conclude that refusing to fish for Autumn/spawning browns on ethical grounds is based only on "warm fuzzies" sentiment and not sound reasoning and science. I would love to hear a scientifically based response that refutes the above statement."

Catherder, I wasnt talking about Autum brown fishing I was talking about fishing in general.


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> Fish numbers don't always define success, but catching fish does! Isn't that the point of fishing?


For me, catching fish isn't the only reason I go. Yes it is an important one but If I catch only one my trip is still successful. If I dont catch any at all but get a chance to blow off some steam, clear my mind and enjoy an afternoon in a beautiful stream or canyon, my trip is still successful.

"Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after."

~by Henry David Thoreau~


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## brookieguy1 (Oct 14, 2008)

wyoming2utah said:


> Fish numbers don't always define success, but catching fish does! Isn't that the point of fishing? Some of you guys ride a mighty white horse and need to step off it sometimes...again, rules and regulations would be set up if the resource needed protecting. Sorry, but I find nothing evil, wrong, or immoral about catching fish on redds.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with fishing redds. Who is to say that you cannot respect a resource and still fish on redds? I am sorry, but I definitely don't buy into the idea that fishing on redds is unethical...
> 
> ...


I agree, Wyo2U. I've been fishing for a long time now and if I go out on a fishing trip and don't catch fish I have failed, and the day was WASTED! I've seen enough sunrises, leaves and trees, animals frolicking in the woods. etc. Not that those things aren't neat, but when I go fishing, it's to catch fish, not daydream about creation. 
P.S. Do the San Juan Shuffle and the Monster Mash on brown trout redds.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

trout bum said:


> I think I am being misunderstood with some of my posts on this thread. As I said in my first post, "this is my position so it doesn't really matter". I am not trying to dictate my ethics to anyone else. Also as I stated earlier, I DO fish the fall and I DO catch spawning brownies and rainbows. I just don't target redds.
> 
> *"I wrote*:It is a fishermans responsibility to be aware of his actions and what they do to our fish and thier habitat.
> 
> Catherder, I wasnt talking about Autum brown fishing I was talking about fishing in general.


I know, and I was using your quote as a basis to demonstrate that the action of Autumn/spawning brown fishing did not harm the fish resource. (or the habitat for that matter)

BTW, I had 90 minutes to kill this evening and hit my nearby "home" river for a few. Caught one gorgeous 16-17 in (pre spawn) brown hen and a few others. Yes, it was lovingly released to spawn in a few weeks. Hope I didn't offend anyones ethic.


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## trout bum (Oct 5, 2010)

I dont know how many times Ive said it but once again, I fish for browns in the fall. Some things are just not worth arguing and for the sake of making this site not sound like "the other one" I will respectfully agree to disagree and move on to more important matters. You have your idea of ethics and I have mine and thats the way it will always be. No hard feelings. Sorry if I have offended anyone. Nice job on the fish. Sounds like a good one.


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## Tony (Dec 28, 2007)

Just be grateful that we have a year round fishing season in Utah. The best time to go fishing is whenever you can. Enough said


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## Pez Gallo (Dec 27, 2007)

All I know is that you really dont want to drink the river water that time of the year. You might catch beaver fever.


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