# .223



## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

i am looking into getting a .223 here soon. i have been thinking about it for about a month or so but now i found a great deal on one and i am wondering what everyones thoughts and opinions are on this caliber i have a .243 as well as a .17 hmr but i am kinda thinking that i want something a bit lighter than the .243 for varmints and some longer range shooting which would also make it some where between the .17 and the .243 so what are your thoughts? i want good and bad thoughts just please no negativity i am just thinking about this i may also sell the .17 if i get the .223 so these are my thoughts so lets hear yours


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

.223 is a great little caliber. Lots of fun to shoot and pretty dang accurate. Lots of bullets to choose from. The rifle twist rate will dictate (somewhat) the weight of bullets you will be able to shoot. Keep us posted on what you get and how it shoots. 8)


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I agree with Al's statement regarding twist rate on the .223 (most will be a 1 in 9" twist)

I think the .223 is a great varminter's caliber. It has pretty good range and is pretty flat shooting. Ammo is super easy to find and fairly inexpensive. Hornady recently introduced their Steel Match ammo that is amazingly cheap and I have heard that the accuracy is quite good out of it. 

What rifle were you thinking of?


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

if i remember right its a ruger "featherlite" or something like that but i may be wrong i like the weight of it and it feels good but it may be a little short i need to feel it a bit more before i commit i just wanted some thoughts on the caliber before i go totally nuts (yes it has happened) and i appreciate them


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

About ammunition selection, I can be corrected on this but it is my understanding that many sporting .223 Rem chambered guns cannot shoot the very common and sometimes inexpensive .556 NATO rounds popular with AR shooters.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Campfire,

I have a Remington R-15 VTR and the first bit of ammo I shot out of it was 5.56, and it really epitomized the concept of "spray and pray." I even posted up pics asking if groups like that were what to expect out of an AR. Then someone suggested that I just use some regular 55gr 223 ammo, and my groups shrank dramatically. The case dimensions seem the same and most guys say they shoot just fine out of their 223s, but it seems that accuracy is not what you would hope for with most reviews I have read. Some claim that there are pressure differences between the two than can cause problems, but I have never been able to substantiate or disprove this claim. I suppose the point of my rambling is that it will work, but the results werent what I would call stellar, and I wouldnt personally shoot 5.56 ammo again (unless a Zombie Apocalypse occurs and I run out of ammo).

Bigboydub,

sounds like you must be looking at a Ruger M77. Are you buying new or used? Also, what is your budget looking like (for rifle and scope combined)? We might be able to give you some other suggestions to consider that may save you a little cash. I look forward to hearing more about your future purchase.


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

Yea it is the m77 I googled it after you were asking about it I also have one chambered in the .270 and it is a great gun and the one I am looking at one that is brand new without a scope for $300 and then I would just need to find a decent scope and rings for it


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Here is a short dissertation on the differences between the 223 and 5.56. To add even more to the confusion, there is the Wylde chamber dimensions that are compatible with both cartridges. From what I can find out, most (if not all) AR15s use the Wylde dimensions. At least Armalite does. That's what mine has.

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

If it is brand new, Ruger usually includes rings with the rifle. So that should save you a little money.....

Thanks for the link Loke, interesting read!


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

Bax* said:


> If it is brand new, Ruger usually includes rings with the rifle. So that should save you a little money.....
> 
> Thanks for the link Loke, interesting read!


When I was looking at it I didn't have much time it still had the tags on it but nothing was said about the rings or even if he had the box to go with it I will be going back in on Tuesday to talk to him more and get some more info on it

What scope would some of you reccomend to put on a 223 set up for varmints I have a 4.5x14 on my 243 that I am thinking of putting on the 223 and getting a new one for the 243 a normal 3x9


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Ruger includes 1" rings with nearly every rifle. I think the only one that doesnt come with rings is the 10/22 and maybe the SR-556. But all their bolt guns come with rings 8)

I think optics is really one of those "sky is the limit" type questions. There really are some amazing pieces of glass out there, but obviously we dont want you to break the bank either.

For affordability, I think Nikon makes some great optics. You can get a Buckmaster scope for about $200. Huge29 will have to weigh in on his new Vortex scope, but I have heard good things about them as well, and they have a nice price. Dont forget to check Cabelas Bargain Cave, they have some good deals as well.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

Swapping the scope you have on your .243 to the new Ruger .223 would be a great idea (and putting a 3-9x on the .243 would be great as well.)
The Ruger would be a great gun - but stay away from military 5.56 ammo like the others said due to the fact that the Ruger has a SAAMI .223 Rem chamber and not the 5.56 NATO chamber with its longer throat. The newer Rugers have a 1-9" twist so yo can shoot bullets up to and including 69-grs in weight with good stability. 40 to 69 grain gives you a good range of bullets for your varminting needs. The heavy 68-69 grain bullets are HPBT match bullets, but can work well on stuff like coyotes.


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

the thing i am thinking about now is that cabelas.com they are advertising the savage edge that will also come with the scope mounted on it for $379 and its also in a camo pattern at this time i am leaning more toward that one just for the fact that it comes with a scope and should be ready to go (unless its like the last rifle i bought there that they said was boresighted it was off 8 inches at 50 yards) so i would like to know if anybody else has had any experiance with these savage edge or should i stick with getting the ruger?

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting ... t105522480


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Love my Savages.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Bax* said:


> I think Nikon makes some great optics. You can get a Buckmaster scope for about $200. Huge29 will have to weigh in on his new Vortex scope, but I have heard good things about them as well, and they have a nice price. Dont forget to check Cabelas Bargain Cave, they have some good deals as well.


Nikon has just come out with a new Prostaff, so the older ones are on sale pretty much everywhere including Cabela's
I just picked up a new Vortex Diamondback Scope for a new toy last week. I just shot it for the first time on Saturday and so far so good. 


bigboybdub said:


> the last rifle i bought there that they said was bore sighted it was off 8 inches at 50 yards


 I don't know that you can realistically expect a bore sight to be too much more accurate than that. I just shot a new rifle Saturday that had the new scope mounted and bore sighted and could not hit the paper at 50. I then went to 25 and could not hit the paper consistently until I realized that the knucklehead had not tightened any of the 6 screws at all. :evil: I noticed that the laser he was using was drooping way down from the bore so I expected it to be shooting way low. I think with the next newly mounted scope I will buy my own laser and save the ammo, wasted time and frustration in having to wait for the barrel to cool enough to try again...


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I think the Savage is an excellent choice personally. One thing that I have learned about bore sighting: it is never a solution to ensure that the bullet is dead on, but it just ensures that the bullet is at least on paper at 25-50 yards. I have had guys bore sight rifles for me at Sportsmans in the past, and they were pretty poorly bore sighted (much like what you experienced) and I have had my gunsmith do bore sights, and he is generally within 2" of center at 100 yards. So now I take it to him because it takes less time to get on target and he spends extra time making sure everything is perfect (like eye relief and that the scope is level). I bet the guys at Savage do a fine job ensuring that the bore sight is done well.

I know this is a little more than you were initially looking to spend, but maybe take a look at this Howa with a Nikko Sterling scope mounted on it. These guys make good rifles as well (this particular one will run you about $535) http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Defa ... code=84107


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

And regarding the Edge, I have not yet seen one, but the reviews are good and I love the two Savages that I have especially the accutrigger, which the Edge does not have. If it feels good to you and is a reliable manufacturer I don't think you can go wrong! Good luck! 
I just saw that the 700 SPS is now on sale for $449 at Cabela's


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> If it feels good to you and is a reliable manufacturer I don't think you can go wrong!


Sooooo....no Highpoints? :lol:


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Bax* said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> > If it feels good to you and is a reliable manufacturer I don't think you can go wrong!
> ...


Tree says that they make pretty good paper weights, but are one of the more expensive paper weights available.


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

Thanks for all the thoughts and opinions I own one savage and one ruger and I have never had anyproblems with either one so that's why I was wondering what everyones opinions were about both of them

the one that was suppose to be boresighted was the savage 17 hmr but I do enjoy sighting them in myself so that's not to much of a problem there I am leaning more toward the savage at this time just so I don't have to worry about getting a scope at least not yet probably make the purchase in the next couple of weeks some time


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

The Nikon Buckmaster 6-18 has different crosshares at a reasonable price. Holds point of aim very well. I have several on different rifles. There are lots of optics out there. Find something that fits your needs. Old saying "spend the most you can afford" on the optics. Let us know what ya end up with. o-||


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

I own a savage edge in a .223.

The edge is a fun gun to shoot, but it does have a design flaw in the stock and the trigger pull is really heavy. The clip is also hard to come by. But it is a tack driver out of the box if you can get used to the stock and trigger.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Huntoholic said:


> I own a savage edge in a .223.
> 
> The edge is a fun gun to shoot, but it does have a design flaw in the stock and the trigger pull is really heavy. The clip is also hard to come by. But it is a tack driver out of the box if you can get used to the stock and trigger.


You could also pay $50 and get a trigger job done... Then you'd have a great shootin gun!


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Bax* said:


> You could also pay $50 and get a trigger job done... Then you'd have a great shootin gun!


It is a good gun for the price. I have added one of those "add on" trigger adjusters on it just to see the difference.

The stock is kind of the weak link when comparing to other rifles. The way the trigger guard is designed, it slips in one side and screws in on the other. It is overly large and they removed to much material from by the grip area. Because they only screw on one end, it causes the grip to have to much flexing when you are bench resting. Just the pressure from your grip as you squeeze the trigger causes the stock to flex and change your point of impact. I don't think you will notice it if you are shooting off-hand. I'm not sure, because of the design, that you will be able to put any other stock other then savages on it. The camo on it is already starting to rub off. I have only had it in the field one time and at the range three times.

In a nut shell it is a good gun. I already shoot 4 shots that I can cover with a quarter at a hundred yards. I am happy with it because it does what I hoped it would, for a great price. The only short coming that I had not read about was the flexing at the grip and having a tough time finding extra clips for a good price. But here is the but. I would not buy it to give to a kid as their first gun. If I could only afford one gun I would save for a little longer and buy a little better quality model that would also give me flexability on changing stocks.


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

i went to cabelas last night for a new pair of shoes and figured that i would check it out and see how it felt for me. i first found out that they changed the name from the edge to the "axis" if i remember right and i didnt really get any answers as to why they changed the name or what they changed as well as the name


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Lips on a pig, thats my thought.... maybe I'm wrong


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Looks like the talk is there was some kind of copy right infringement.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/inde ... 52824.html


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

ok so i would venture my guess that they didnt change anything else then


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Looking at the picture on the savage web site, things looks they are the same. The clip in the store part of their web page lists the clips as interchangable.

Here is another link on the subject:
http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/i ... c=36811.15


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

well i know it was a little later than expected on the purchase but i did pick me up the new 223 today i would like to thank every one for your thoughts and opinions i ended up getting the ruger m77 and now i just need to get a scope on it and see how well it can shoot 

thanks again for all your input


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Congrats on the new purchase BBD! 8) 

Tell us more about your M77. Is it blued, or stainless? Wood or synthetic? Post up a pic. Inquiring minds want to know!


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

Bax* said:


> Congrats on the new purchase BBD! 8)
> 
> Tell us more about your M77. Is it blued, or stainless? Wood or synthetic? Post up a pic. Inquiring minds want to know!


well here you go then

i dont really like wood stocks for some reason i cant tell you why either but here is some pictures i picked up the gun the other day and just today i picked up a new vortex 3x9 scope

so with the scope i have a 4.5 x 14 with the yard dial on it mounted on the 243 so i switched that scope over to the 223 and got that all mounted on and ready for a bore sight tomorrow

now for the 243 i ended up picking up a vortex 3x9 and i now have that mounted on my 243

i am amazed at the clarity of the vortex optics as well as there warranty i also have a vortex spotting scope

so here are some pictures of both of the guns sorry about the quality i used my cell phone


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

so i was out getting the 223 sighted in and it was working pretty well getting it close to zero at 100 yards it started out around four feet high but after a few shots i got it on the paper and from there it was good and easy although i did notice that i seem to wobble a bit as well as flinch some times on my shots for some reason i really have no idea why


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

If you are shooting cheap ammo, try switching to some higher quality loads. That should help a bit. Also, a trigger job will work wonders for you

As far as your flinch. Try some dry fire exercises, maybe you can see where you are flinching and try to fix the cause


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## flyfisher117 (Jun 29, 2009)

If you still want some cheap ammo try some PMC Gold its FMJ but i buy it, shoot it, then reload the brass. At 100 yards it groups pretty good in my gun but at 200 it starts to open up.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

bigboybdub, tell me about that target you posted, is it one group of shots or multiple groups?? It is just that I seem to be seeing definite horizontal movement which would indicate you might need to float your barrel a little better.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

BBD,

you are welcome to PM me and we can work out a day to go to the range. We could set your rifle up on my led sled and sight it in. And I even have some handloads we could shoot out of your rifle to see if that helps at all


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

Bax* said:


> BBD,
> 
> you are welcome to PM me and we can work out a day to go to the range. We could set your rifle up on my led sled and sight it in. And I even have some handloads we could shoot out of your rifle to see if that helps at all


Thatwould be great thanks. Although I am not to sure when I could go at this timei started a new job and we are working a ton of overtime and we just moved so I will be busy for a bit.

On a side note could anyone tell me where I could go shooting near the ogden area I know nothing about this area

Thanks for the help guys.


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