# New gun advice



## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm looking to buy a new rifle for larger game hunts, like elk, moose, and bear. I'm looking at getting either a .45-70 or a .35 Remington. 

I have a buddy who hunts elk with a .30-30, but I feel like that's a little on the small side. If that's a viable option, let me know what you guys think.

Anyways, I'd like a .45-70 lever action, but they aren't near as accurate or powerful at a single-shot or bolt action. And there's other problems, as noted in this Field and Stream article. 

"Their tubular magazines complicated matters. To shoot at long range, you must use pointed bullets, but if you load a tubular magazine with spitzers, the point of each slug rests on the primer of the round ahead of it. When you pull the trigger, the round in the chamber may not be the only one that goes off." 

Standard .45-70 rounds don't have the pointed bullets, which makes them less useful at long ranges, etc. 

But, "Hornady may have the solution. LeverEvolution ammo consists of all the old, slow favorites—.45/70, .30/30, .35—loaded with newly designed spitzer bullets that have soft polymer tips, which will not detonate in a tubular magazine. I tried them in my Marlin .45/70, and my guess is they will add 100 to 200 yards to the effective range of any tubular-magazine lever gun. Price depends on caliber"

So with that in mind, I could get a .45-70 or .35 lever action and still have the longer range of a .308 Winchester or .270. 

The question is, is getting a lever action worth it for these calibers, or should I look at centerfire bolt-action rifles chambered for those rounds?


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

If you really like lever action you should consider a Browning BLR that utilizes a box magazine rather than a tube magazine. You kinda get the best of both worlds. It even comes in rounds like .308 or 30-06 

To be honest with you if you are going to settle for a 30-30 or a 45-70 you are basically restricting your killing power to the same distances as a muzzleloader. They are great brush guns and they will bust elk coming out of thick oak, but those are probably the shots that you don't want to take. 

To give you an idea between the 30-30 and 45-70 in comparison to the .308 and the 30-06 would be like comparing a ruler to a yard stick. Flatter trajectory and terminal velocity at distances beyond 150 yards makes a big difference when hunting elk. While the 30-30 and the 45-70 are capable and have taken elk the other 2 rounds take a lot more error out of the equation and they bring a lot more authority to putting the smack down at farther distances.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

To start with you are not going to have the longer ranges that a .308 or .270 are going to give you with either the .45-70 or the .35 Remington. They are both short to medium range rounds with big bullets that travel slow to the target. 

For the .35 Remington you can see if you can find a 7600 Remington if you don't want a lever action. For the 45-70 the only rifles that I know of other than a lever action is the Ruger #3, or the old Springfield trapdoor single shot rifles. For range I would limit myself to between 150 and 200 yards with either round. They will kill a lot further out but when you figure the rainbow trajectory that you will be shooting a hit will start to become on the lucky side.


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

Nambaster said:


> If you really like lever action you should consider a Browning BLR that utilizes a box magazine rather than a tube magazine. You kinda get the best of both worlds. It even comes in rounds like .308 or 30-06
> 
> To be honest with you if you are going to settle for a 30-30 or a 45-70 you are basically restricting your killing power to the same distances as a muzzleloader. They are great brush guns and they will bust elk coming out of thick oak, but those are probably the shots that you don't want to take.
> 
> To give you an idea between the 30-30 and 45-70 in comparison to the .308 and the 30-06 would be like comparing a ruler to a yard stick. Flatter trajectory and terminal velocity at distances beyond 150 yards makes a big difference when hunting elk. While the 30-30 and the 45-70 are capable and have taken elk the other 2 rounds take a lot more error out of the equation and they bring a lot more authority to putting the smack down at farther distances.


Yeah, and that's just the problem I'm having deciding here. Even with the new Hornady bullets that have flex tips and all that fun stuff, with a .45-70 or .30-30, i'm limited a lot in terms of range, and i'd have to get more up close and personal with the hunting.

So if you had to choose between a .308 or a 30-06 for elk, what would you pick?


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

Critter said:


> To start with you are not going to have the longer ranges that a .308 or .270 are going to give you with either the .45-70 or the .35 Remington. They are both short to medium range rounds with big bullets that travel slow to the target.
> 
> For the .35 Remington you can see if you can find a 7600 Remington if you don't want a lever action. For the 45-70 the only rifles that I know of other than a lever action is the Ruger #3, or the old Springfield trapdoor single shot rifles. For range I would limit myself to between 150 and 200 yards with either round. They will kill a lot further out but when you figure the rainbow trajectory that you will be shooting a hit will start to become on the lucky side.


Yeah, I'm not expecting longer ranges with them. With the Hornady bullets you get a tad more range, but not much. These are definitely rounds for use closer to my target.

Marlin makes a few bolt action .45-70s that are quite nice.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I own both a 30-06 and a .308 and they both seem to perform pretty much the same. The 30-06 that I have is a Remington Model 700 BDL and the gun has always been a reliable big game animal killer. I have surprised myself with a lot of the shots that I have landed. Adrenalin seems to always be present in all of my hunts and somehow the 30-06 always helps me keep my focus. A lot of confidence comes from having such a trusty rifle. 

My .308 is a Harrington Richardson Survivor. It is a single shot with a 22" bull barrel. I basically use it as a pack around rifle that I usually just strap to my back pack as I am going through the steep and nasty stuff. It comes along with me on the hunts that I don't really expect to get a shot, but should I be so fortunate usually it is a bigger animal that I have to make up my mind on harvesting. 

The survivor rifle endures a lot of elements strapped to my back pack and it stays out of my way as I am climbing up shale hillsides or dodging and ducking branches. When the rifle comes off of the pack it still performs well and if I had to pick just one rifle for elk I would probably pick the single shot just because of how compact it is. 

Comparing the calibers would be an infinite argument. The .308 has slightly less recoil and the 30-06 has 100 fps second on the .308... 

if you go .308 shoot 150 grains and if you go 30-06 165 grains is the golden ticket. 

There are so many other calibers to discuss but if elk and only elk was what I was hunting I would consider something a little better than the .308 and 30-06 like .325 WSM, .338 mag, 300 RUM, or 300 Win Mag. The cost of ammunition goes up as you go up on caliber, but I would be a lot more confident shooting past 300 yards with the larger calibers.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

This gun looks to be on sale and would provide exceptional accuracy. Bang for the buck and if you can afford it I would highly recommend jumping on this....

http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consume...ded=&youth=&Offset_rec=0&num_rec=50&item_num=


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

This is the 22" bull barrel .308 that I bought...It shoots MOA and it is a breeze to pack. The bull barrel helps me stabilize for a shot at longer distances while the length of the barrel makes the gun easy to maneuver.

The one complaint that I have about the gun is the trigger. It has a hard pull but the gun is primarily built as a survival rifle. I use it for back country packing

http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consume...ded=&youth=&Offset_rec=0&num_rec=50&item_num=


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

Nambaster said:


> I own both a 30-06 and a .308 and they both seem to perform pretty much the same. The 30-06 that I have is a Remington Model 700 BDL and the gun has always been a reliable big game animal killer. I have surprised myself with a lot of the shots that I have landed. Adrenalin seems to always be present in all of my hunts and somehow the 30-06 always helps me keep my focus. A lot of confidence comes from having such a trusty rifle.
> 
> My .308 is a Harrington Richardson Survivor. It is a single shot with a 22" bull barrel. I basically use it as a pack around rifle that I usually just strap to my back pack as I am going through the steep and nasty stuff. It comes along with me on the hunts that I don't really expect to get a shot, but should I be so fortunate usually it is a bigger animal that I have to make up my mind on harvesting.
> 
> ...


300 Win Mag is good for really, really long shots. I feel like if I go with a lighter bullet like a .308 or a .30-06, I'd go with the 30-06. Then again, having all the raw power behind a .45-70 or a .35 loaded at 325 grains is a tempting option as well. Range is really limited. I guess the whole point is, is it worth it to sacrifice range for power?

In some cases it may be, but this is why it pays to have more than one gun. I'll probably end up getting a new 30-06 unless I find a screaming deal on a 45-70


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

You can easily load a 220 gr bullet in the 30-06 if you are looking for a heavier bullet.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

If you want to be cool, find a Remington 700 Classic in 35 Whelen.------SS


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

I would say that if you are looking into a 45-70, learn to hand load. it gives a much better array of bullets, it is way cheaper, and you can load up modern firearms to much high pressures than standard rounds. plus, it gives you the chance to use proper 405 grain lead hardcasts. I wouldn't let range kill your vibe for big and heavy, because they're fun as all get out to shoot. Unless you're like Springville who can competently take long, long shots, might as well enjoy the 200- yard power of the .45-70. at 200 yards, sighted in at 100, I believed it is about an 18 inch drop which isn't that bad. aim at the back of a deer or aim to nick the bottom of the spine on a larger animal essentially. Elmer Keith said something along the lines of "you can eat right up to the hole". 


With that said, the 45-70 with those slow 1300 fps rounds out to 300 yards had a lot to do with American Bison being in the state they are, and they make tang sights that are perfect for long range, old school shooting.


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## Kevinitis (Jul 18, 2013)

I think the difference in the calibers you are discussing and those more people use is velocity. The 45-70 and the 30-30 are slower velocity guns and thus, don't have the range that other popular elk guns have. With elk, and deer hunting for that matter, there is the possibility for some pretty long shots. With the 45-70 and the 30-30 you are looking at 200 yard shots tops, even with leverevolution bullets. You are still only talking about 2400 fps out of the 30-30, and 2025 fps out of the 45-70. The advantage that other calibers have is velocity. Popular elk cartidges include 300 win mag, 30-06, 7 mm Remington mag, and 270 win. I shoot 270 WSM. A 165 grain 30-06 rolls about 2800 fps, a 300 win mag shoots a 180 grain bullet at 3130, a 150 grain 270 bullet shoots about 2850, and a 7 mag shoots a 160 grain bullet at 2925 fps. Each of those bullets are appropriate elk loads and will give you the velocity to reach out farther without excessive bullet drop. Each of these guns are considered all around rifles calibers.


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

Not on the list you mentioned, but .358 Winchester or .35 Whelen.

My dream gun (one out of many): Browning BLR in .358 Winchester.

A bit less trajectory than its parent, the .308, but a bit harder hitting when it gets to the target.

Same goes for the relationship between .35 whelen and its parent, the .30-06.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

spencerD said:


> I'm looking to buy a new rifle for larger game hunts, like elk, moose, and bear. I'm looking at getting either a .45-70 or a .35 Remington.
> 
> And there's other problems, as noted in this Field and Stream article.
> 
> ...


Get a Remington Model 141 pump in .35 Remington. It has a spiral magazine. The bullet tips are staggered and do not stack on the primer of the next round. I know a guy that has a couple for sale. 

.


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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

I really like my Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70.
If you accept the fact that you are handicapping yourself in terms of distance, it is a great, historic, rifle/caliber.
Get to know the .45-70 limitations, BUT also acknowledge that it is an incredibly powerful cartridge. And, the 405gr bullet is a lot of fun to shoot.


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

I have a Browning 1886 45-70. I love that gun. It kicks so hard it is actually fun to shoot. There's just something about loading a beefy bullet and throwing it down range. 

It has a ladder sight and is accurate out to 200 or 300 yards (I can't remember what distances I've maxed out at.) I plan on taking it elk hunting someday. 

The 35 Whelen , like SS also mentioned, is also a cool round that will shoot much farther. 

I guess it just depends on what you want in a rifle and what type of hunting you plan on doing.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Have you considered a .17 HMR?

According to several Internet forums I have read (thereby making me an expert) this round will kill a blue whale at 300 yards. 

I know it sounds like over kill, but Henry does make this whopper in a leaver gun. 

:mrgreen:


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Bax* said:


> Have you considered a .17 HMR?
> 
> According to several Internet forums I have read (thereby making me an expert) this round will kill a blue whale at 300 yards.
> 
> ...


With a good scope and bullet drop compensating reticle (and a good range finder), you can stretch that out to 337 yards if you have a 24" barrel on your rifle. I saw it on a youtube video


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

LanceS4803 said:


> I really like my Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70.
> If you accept the fact that you are handicapping yourself in terms of distance, it is a great, historic, rifle/caliber.
> Get to know the .45-70 limitations, BUT also acknowledge that it is an incredibly powerful cartridge. And, the 405gr bullet is a lot of fun to shoot.


That is what draws me to the 45-70 more than anything. It's just so fun to shoot and as long as I'm in range with it, it'll put the throwdown on anything. So will a .270 or 30-06, but there's something satisfying about the thump of a 45-70


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

Bax* said:


> Have you considered a .17 HMR?
> 
> According to several Internet forums I have read (thereby making me an expert) this round will kill a blue whale at 300 yards.
> 
> ...


Sounds like I'm gonna have to go give this a shot on a range somewhere. And there's no such thing as overkill when it comes to this good stuff! haha you never know when you'll need to stop a charging blue whale


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks to all yall who responded here, this is a wealth of information and advice. i appreciate it! When I buy the new gun I'll make sure to put it up here for all to see!


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

What about the 338 Marlin Express? About equal in power to the 30-06, designed expressly for lever-action rifles. a 200 grain 338 and 200 grain 30-06 shoot nearly the same at 2565 fps and 2542 respectively. Seems like a good compromise between a powerful lever action round with good long range.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

The Savage model 99 is a proven lever rifle and is chambered in .308, with a rotary magazine, so you don't need blunts. And a .308 is a solid elk round.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

spencerD said:


> What about the 338 Marlin Express? About equal in power to the 30-06, designed expressly for lever-action rifles. a 200 grain 338 and 200 grain 30-06 shoot nearly the same at 2565 fps and 2542 respectively. Seems like a good compromise between a powerful lever action round with good long range.


I think Marlin did a good job creating their 308 & 338 (and 444) but they never gained popularity for some reason. I assume this is because the long range shooting crowd was gaining momentum at the same time. But I think this overshadowed the cartridges and they didn't really get a chance in the leaver world.

I think the rounds have good potential but would encourage you to buy all of the reloading stuff you can for this round before it becomes rare as hen's teeth in the coming years.


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

I like the Marlin Express rounds, they're built specifically for lever action rifles, still with tubular mags, and it's a lot of fun to shoot a classic lever action. And I'm a big fan of Marlin rifles in general.

that being said, the .308 Marlin Express at 
100 yards is 2438 fps/2111 lbs-ft of force. 200 yards - 2226/1761, 300 yards - 2026/1457 400 yards - 1836/1197

the 338 Marlin Express - 

100 yards - 2365/2484, 200 yards - 2174/2099, 300 yards - 1992/1762 400 yards 1820/1471

the 338 is slower, but more powerful than the 308. I think I may end up sticking with the 338.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Yeah the 338 is superior in my opinion as well.

I think that leavers are the bee's knees. I regret selling every one that I have sold in the past. The only thing that I wish is that there were more of the classic small caliber versions still in production today by Marlin, Browning, and Winchester (a 218 Bee would be a lot of fun!)

If I bought a modern leaver gun, it would likely be one of these two calibers you listed.


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

I don't know why you are stuck on the 45-70. both the .444 marlin and .450 marlin have better balistics. I own a winchester 84 trapper in .444 and .357 mag. I used to own a browning 7mm mag BLR(LEVER). I got sick and tired of packing around a 15 pound gun.(sold it) My winchester is short, light and has a ported barrel, and it kicks like a mule!!! you really need to asked your self what kind of situations you find your self in while hunting. my main gun is a .300 WSM sighting in at 200 yards and I have yet to shoot an elk farther than 30 yards.(nothing like aming low). one advantage you have with those large shooting, short handling lever action rifles, is they are a great bear defence gun. so ask your self are you constantly shooting elk over 200(two football fields) yards? then a lever gun isn't what you want. if within 200 a lever will be just fine.


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

Bax* said:


> Yeah the 338 is superior in my opinion as well.
> 
> I think that leavers are the bee's knees. I regret selling every one that I have sold in the past. The only thing that I wish is that there were more of the classic small caliber versions still in production today by Marlin, Browning, and Winchester (a 218 Bee would be a lot of fun!)
> 
> If I bought a modern leaver gun, it would likely be one of these two calibers you listed.


I think it's gonna be the 338 Marlin Express for me. It's solid, powerful at 300 yards, and a lever action. It's the gun!


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

guess I should look at the length of the thread before I but my 2 cents in.(little late). looks like the .444 and .450 are out dated compared to the .338 and .358 winchester. I did go look at the marlin web site and looked at their comparisions. I find it funny how they compare the .338 to an over weighted .30-06 and .308, then pat them selfs on the back though. neither of these shells were loaded to the optimal performance in their comparisons. need to do your home work guys.


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## BROWN BAGGER (Sep 13, 2007)

Bax* said:


> Yeah the 338 is superior in my opinion as well.
> 
> I think that leavers are the bee's knees. I regret selling every one that I have sold in the past. The only thing that I wish is that there were more of the classic small caliber versions still in production today by Marlin, Browning, and Winchester (a 218 Bee would be a lot of fun!)
> 
> If I bought a modern leaver gun, it would likely be one of these two calibers you listed.


you know I love levers too, thats why I have owned so many; but I think pumps in high power rifles are the king. I wish they still made quality ones like my dads remington field master .03-06. I bought my son one few years back and it does not compare to the 1970's of my dads.


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

BROWN BAGGER said:


> guess I should look at the length of the thread before I but my 2 cents in.(little late). looks like the .444 and .450 are out dated compared to the .338 and .358 winchester. I did go look at the marlin web site and looked at their comparisions. I find it funny how they compare the .338 to an over weighted .30-06 and .308, then pat them selfs on the back though. neither of these shells were loaded to the optimal performance in their comparisons. need to do your home work guys.


I got all my comps for rounds on Hornady's website. Buying straight from them, standard loads, the 338 performs great. Better than the 308 and 45-70. The 45-70 has the larger grain bullet, obviously. But 338 hits harder while going a bit slower than a 308.


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## Fishhuntthendie (Feb 27, 2014)

If you are going with a lever...I like the .338 better than all the others. However, where I hunt elk...the canyons are frequently well over 300 yrds across with no way to get closer to the elk without spooking them. My preference is a 300 WSM for an all around elk/bear/moose gun though I have a 300 WM and 300 RUM...the 300 WSM is perfect for elk in my opinion and I even built a second one because I liked the first one so much.


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

If youre considering .35s I would start with .358 winchester and go up from there. .35 remington is a good cartridge but really more suited for eastern hunting. with .358 win youd get increased performance as well as better bullet selections. .35 whelen would be my pick. very much a 300 yd gun, even with 250 gr bullets. brass is easy to find and make. 
.35 rem would be more at home if you were hunting hogs, bear or deer in the woods or from a stand. 
that's just if you had an interest in a .35 cal. there are literally endless possible choices of other cartridges and calibers capable of cleanly taking the game you mentioned.


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

blr in .358 win would fit the bill if you like levers.


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