# How Bout That Jazz?



## HighNDry

It's a frenzy out there! Just think about it: Mitchell tells the OKC crowd goodbye we won't be back. Karl Malone comes out of the woods to comment on the team. OKC players say they have confidence to battle any adversity. The Jazz fans and pro Jazz local sports radio personalities are claiming Westbrook and George cannot shoot lights out again (same prediction) that was made after they did it in game one). And predictions are being made that Gobert will not get in foul trouble again.

So here is my prediction: If Gobert plays to not get in foul trouble, he will play less aggressive and OKC will take the game. The one thing OKC has not done is won in SLC. They want to prove that they can do it. Momentum is all in OKC's favor this time. I predict that game 7 will be a blowout by OKC and the Utah faithful will be heard to exclaim, "Well it was a growing year. We never expected the kind of season we had when Hayward left so all-in-all great season. It will only get better as Mitchell and this team mature together. I'm satisfied."

I'll be hoping the Jazz prove me wrong. Just once, prove that it isn't the same old Jazz team that lose when it really counts.


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## Kwalk3

Why do we keep starting new threads about the series? The first one that still has people actively commenting on it wasn't good enough that you needed to bring your pessimism front and center again? I hope you're proven wrong as well and they can close it out tonight.

Been a great year though, any way you cut it. I disagree that the momentum is all in OKCs favor, and don't forget that the Jazz beat Chris Paul in a game 7 on the road just last year, if it goes to 7.


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## PBH

i'm a Jazz faithful. I'll say a few things right now:

A. It was a good year. This second half of the season has been down-right fun!
B. I fully expected the Jazz to make the playoffs this year* -- in spite of that one guy leaving. I've said this numerous times: I was not fan of his. I did not support the billboard campaign for him to stay. I was glad he left.
C. It will get better as Mitchell and _his_ team mature together.
D. I'm never satisfied.

*What I didn't expect was an all-out collapse of Rodney Hood. I honestly thought he would take advantage of the situation, and prove that he could carry the offensive load for the Jazz. I was horribly wrong. I was happy to see the Jazz unload him, and keep Favors. The problem with both Hood and that other guy that left for Boston, is that you can't just turn a role player into a star -- especially if they don't want it. That's what is so great about Mitchell. The Jazz didn't try to make him a star -- he made himself a star. 7 years of grooming, prodding, pushing, pulling, and forcing all resulted in a rookie stepping in and grabbing that star role. Yep -- I'm pretty happy with this season!


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## Kwalk3

HighNDry said:


> I'll be hoping the Jazz prove me wrong. Just once, prove that it isn't the same old Jazz team that lose when it really counts.


Also, you first referenced this "losing when it counts," in that Utah was going to slide and not play well going into the playoffs. They did. You gave them no credit and are now applying it to a playoff series that they've largely played incredibly well in.

I'd say they've exceeded any expectations a reasonable sports fan would have. Just stop with the "losing when it counts business." It must be tiring to have such a negative outlook on life.


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## HighNDry

Kwalk3 said:


> Also, you first referenced this "losing when it counts," in that Utah was going to slide and not play well going into the playoffs. They did. You gave them no credit and are now applying it to a playoff series that they've largely played incredibly well in.
> 
> I'd say they've exceeded any expectations a reasonable sports fan would have. Just stop with the "losing when it counts business." It must be tiring to have such a negative outlook on life.


Let me think about this. I'll respond right after my nap.


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## RandomElk16

What happened to our old arguing thread? 

Tear down this thread!


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## Kwalk3

RandomElk16 said:


> What happened to our old arguing thread?
> 
> Tear down this thread!


Lol. That's what I'm saying. We had some perfectly good banter going on in the other thread.


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## HighNDry

RandomElk16 said:


> What happened to our old arguing thread?
> 
> Tear down this thread!


It took a turn for the worse. There was actually people on there praising the Jazz for only losing game 5 by 7 on OKC's home court. :shock:


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## Kwalk3

Must be nice to live in a place where the wind always blows and the forecast is for gray skies all the time.


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## HighNDry

Kwalk3 said:


> Must be nice to live in a place where the wind always blows and the forecast is for gray skies all the time.


Or in places where the wind blows upward, lol.


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## neverdrawn

HighNDry said:


> It took a turn for the worse. There was actually people on there praising the Jazz for only losing game 5 by 7 on OKC's home court. :shock:


Those people are buying tickets to game 6 to celebrate closing out the series!


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## MuscleWhitefish

Here we go again with the hero ball iso offense. 


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## 3arabians

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Here we go again with the hero ball iso offense.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup, this game is giving me anxiety. I had to break out the High West.

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## MuscleWhitefish

3arabians said:


> Yup, this game is giving me anxiety. I had to break out the High West.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Thunder are switching screens and the jazz have no idea what to do other than Mitchell iso / p&r

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## BGD

Get a rebound for crying out loud! Really, we let OKC get 3 offensive rebounds with 50 seconds left!!!


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## RandomElk16

I know it's only one play..

But in today's NBA, Paul was fouled. Curry gets that call every night.

That said, OKC had more than enough chances. Jazz could not rebound. Round 2!


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## BG1

Jazz got the justice they deserved! Couple wrong calls FINALLY go our way We won. Trashy OKC got what they deserved. Jazz rule!


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## BG1

P.S. Any bets the Houston series with us goes at least 4-2? I can’t stand Harden. Hate him worse than Westbrook or Genobli. Cheatin’ bastad!


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## Catherder

RandomElk16 said:


> I know it's only one play..
> 
> But in today's NBA, Paul was fouled. Curry gets that call every night.
> 
> That said, OKC had more than enough chances. Jazz could not rebound. Round 2!


Yup, George was fouled. Maybe that makes up for Byron Russell. 

What an exciting game though. It wasn't pretty but both teams left it all out there tonight. Don't think I will be able to sleep tonight and I have to work tomorrow. Donovan was unreal in the third when dueling with Russ.

I was worried that the loss of Rubio would hurt and Burks really stepped up.


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## 3arabians

For me, the game changed as soon as I broke out the double rye!

All jokes aside. This game proved my point earlier in this thread (wait? what thread is this?) that Westbrook is the most selfish player in NBA history! Great job Russell - 46, 10, and 5. Scored over half your teams points. Have a nice summer! Loved how he couldnt handle the heckler on the way out. 

Now lets see some real team ball by both teams in the next series. 

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## Kwalk3

These late games are killing me. 1:30 a.m finish is one of many reasons the East Coast ain't my cup of tea. And I'm all kinds of amped up. May not be able to sleep for hours. Was really unsure they would be able to pull it out without Rubio initiating the offense.

Big minutes from Burks, and huge 3rd by the rookie. 

The last minute was absolute anarchy. That no call was rough on PG at the end of the game, but the Jazz gutted it out and deserved the win. Glad they could close it out at home.




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## Kwalk3

3arabians said:


> For me, the game changed as soon as I broke out the double rye!
> 
> All jokes aside. This game proved my point earlier in this thread (wait? what thread is this?) that Westbrook is the most selfish player in NBA history! Great job Russell - 46, 10, and 5. Scored over half your teams points. Have a nice summer! Loved how he couldnt handle the heckler on the way out.
> 
> Now lets see some real team ball by both teams in the next series.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


I agree with you. I don't like his play style as far as how it fits with a real team dynamic. However, Westbrook is one of a few people on earth that can singlehandedly put his team back into a series. When he's got it going, it is amazing.

I am extremely glad we don't have to see anymore of him, especially not back in OKC.

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## Catherder

3arabians said:


> (wait? what thread is this?)


I wonder how long it will take for H&D to start another thread about how the Jazz have no business being on the court with the Rockets?


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## Kwalk3

RandomElk16 said:


> I know it's only one play..
> 
> But in today's NBA, Paul was fouled. Curry gets that call every night.
> 
> That said, OKC had more than enough chances. Jazz could not rebound. Round 2!


He for sure was fouled. The fact they didn't foul when the Jazz got the rebound is mind-blowing to me. The Jazz earned the win nonetheless, with one of their key pieces out.

It was ugly but they got the job done.

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## TPrawitt91

Kwalk said it. That was ugly, but we came out on top.


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## RandomElk16

The thing about Westbrook, again goes back to coaching. Donovan doesn't know how to use him. Not sure his intention is to be selfish, but when Melo and PG are shooting 21%, and he is shooting 42%... Take your shots!

A guy doesn't average a triple double 2 seasons in a row (that means 10 assists a game guys) without trying to help. Some stat padding occurs but still... As fiery as he is, I don't believe he is a bad teammate or selfish. Kevin Durant didn't say that and many players love him. At times though, he has to just take over. Same as Lebron. At a certain point it's like forget it I am going to put it on my back.


Donovan ended the half less than impressive. Then in the 3rd he gave Jazz fans back that belief! Really a lights out quarter to bring your team back into the flow.


I won't say they don't deserve to share a court with the Rockets as someone alluded to. They will need to clean a few things up though- the rockets attempt 12 more 3's a game and have a higher completion. You don't want to give them 5 consecutive shots, 3 being 3's, like OKC got tonight. You will need Rudy at his best and Rubio. After they dropped 50 in a quarter last game though.. sheesh. This is one matchup I hadn't thought a lot about, which makes me happy because I can just sit back and see what happens :grin:


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## BG1

Hopefully the refs will call the double dribbling and traveling by that terrorist Harden. I doubt it though, seems like he’s highly protected by the refs. Oh well . Jazz have so over achieved my hopes it’s all just a bonus now! Can’t wait to se Mitchell school Chris Paul! Another overrated whiner.


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## 3arabians

RandomElk16 said:


> The thing about Westbrook, again goes back to coaching. Donovan doesn't know how to use him. Not sure his intention is to be selfish, but when Melo and PG are shooting 21%, and he is shooting 42%... Take your shots!
> 
> A guy doesn't average a triple double 2 seasons in a row (that means 10 assists a game guys) without trying to help. Some stat padding occurs but still... As fiery as he is, I don't believe he is a bad teammate or selfish. Kevin Durant didn't say that and many players love him. At times though, he has to just take over. Same as Lebron. At a certain point it's like forget it I am going to put it on my back.
> 
> Donovan ended the half less than impressive. Then in the 3rd he gave Jazz fans back that belief! Really a lights out quarter to bring your team back into the flow.
> 
> I won't say they don't deserve to share a court with the Rockets as someone alluded to. They will need to clean a few things up though- the rockets attempt 12 more 3's a game and have a higher completion. You don't want to give them 5 consecutive shots, 3 being 3's, like OKC got tonight. You will need Rudy at his best and Rubio. After they dropped 50 in a quarter last game though.. sheesh. This is one matchup I hadn't thought a lot about, which makes me happy because I can just sit back and see what happens :grin:


Ya, I mean Westbrook is good I guess. I just really dont like him. He is on summer vacation now and that is all that really matters to me. I can now put down my ax.

The next series will be interesting. Im hoping the jazz put up a good fight and surprise some more folks.

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## neverdrawn

Kwalk3 said:


> He for sure was fouled. The fact they didn't foul when the Jazz got the rebound is mind-blowing to me. The Jazz earned the win nonetheless, with one of their key pieces out.
> 
> It was ugly but they got the job done.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Go back and look at the camera angle from under their basket and see if you still agree that was a foul. Very little to no contact and Wayoff P clearly jumps to his right to try and get the call.


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## 3arabians

neverdrawn said:


> Go back and look at the camera angle from under their basket and see if you still agree that was a foul. Very little to no contact and Wayoff P clearly jumps to his right to try and get the call.


I was watching NBA Gametime earlier today. The play was reviewed by the lead official and it was determined that it was not a foul. Rudy jumped at an angle and if Paul wouldnt have jumped into Rudy no contact would have been made.

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## Kwalk3

3arabians said:


> I was watching NBA Gametime earlier today. The play was reviewed by the lead official and it was determined that it was not a foul. Rudy jumped at an angle and if Paul wouldnt have jumped into Rudy no contact would have been made.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


After seeing the same responses from the NBA, I agree. I think by the rule it wasn't a foul. However, it is called as a foul 99.99999 percent of the time in today's NBA. I was shocked it wasn't called. Especially when the player is a star.

I was, however, very very very happy it wasn't called. Paul George should have taken the shot instead of relying on the bail out from the ref. The Jazz were the better team, and thankfully the result reflected that.

It's gonna be an uphill battle without Rubio, possibly for the series. He really has been great, and without him getting dribble penetration and initiating the offense, I'm a bit nervous what the offense will look like. I don't anticipate that Donovan will go off for 38 every game. Here's to hoping I'm wrong.

Also, we'll have to wait for the Jazz to lose game 1 for our resident wet blanket to start a new thread about the Jazz losing when it counts. I'm still excited!! Bring on Sunday!!


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## RandomElk16

Kwalk3 said:


> However, it is called as a foul 99.99999 percent of the time in today's NBA.


This. How many times have you seen a Steph Curry hesitation followed by a jump into a player? It's become a common thing in the league.

I don't like it, so I am fine with the no call - IF they stop calling it all together.


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## RandomElk16

Pels and Warriors certainly under-delivered.

Game 7 for the Cavs today and Game 1 for Jazz-Rockets. I expect some good ball this sunny sabbath.


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## Kwalk3

Jazz/Rockets was underwhelming but not necessarily surprising if you're a Jazz fan. The Rockets are legit. The Jazz missed Rubio big time, but this series might be over quick with or without him.

You can really see why Houston was the best team in the league all year. They are so much more unified and consistent than OKC

I'd really like to see them win a game or two, but not sure how realistic that is. Donovan wasn't as efficient tonight, but still had some "wow" moments and ended with 20+ again.

Uphill battle, but glad we're here.


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## 3arabians

Kwalk3 said:


> Jazz/Rockets was underwhelming but not necessarily surprising if you're a Jazz fan. The Rockets are legit. The Jazz missed Rubio big time, but this series might be over quick with or without him.
> 
> You can really see why Houston was the best team in the league all year. They are so much more unified and consistent than OKC
> 
> I'd really like to see them win a game or two, but not sure how realistic that is. Donovan wasn't as efficient tonight, but still had some "wow" moments and ended with 20+ again.
> 
> Uphill battle, but glad we're here.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ya, I came into this one with very low expectations. They actually put up a better fight than I thought they would though. You can really tell they are missing Rubio - just not as organized and the rockets are the best team in the NBA. Hopefully Rubio gets back soon.

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## Kwalk3

3arabians said:


> Ya, I came into this one with very low expectations. They actually put up a better fight than I thought they would though. You can really tell they are missing Rubio - just not as organized and the rockets are the best team in the NBA. Hopefully Rubio gets back soon.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Tony Jones at the Trib says it won't be 'til at least game 5.....which may not happen.

The offense just stagnates a bit more without him using the dribble penetration to pull defenders. I love Royce O'neale and his hustle, but his offensive contributions leave something to be desired. He's shown flashes, but needs to be a lot more assertive with Rubio out.


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## wyoming2utah

Kwalk3 said:


> After seeing the same responses from the NBA, I agree. I think by the rule it wasn't a foul. However, it is called as a foul 99.99999 percent of the time in today's NBA. I was shocked it wasn't called. Especially when the player is a star.
> 
> I was, however, very very very happy it wasn't called. Paul George should have taken the shot instead of relying on the bail out from the ref. The Jazz were the better team, and thankfully the result reflected that.


Those Thunder fans and anybody else whining about the no call at the end should have been thankful they had the chance in the first place--directly before that shot, Mitchell was hammered on a rebound attempt by Grant. Grant came over his back, whacked him across the head and shoulder and deflected the ball out of bounds off Mitchell. I sat and watched that replay with the rest of the TV viewers over and over as they discussed who the ball last touched, yet nobody mentioned the obvious loose ball foul on Grant. In my eyes, Mitchell should have been shooting foul shots on the other end and George should have never had that 3 point attempt!

As for the Rockets game, it is easy to throw in the towel and say the Jazz have no chance. But, it is just one game and a game the Jazz played with little preparation, immediately after a tough series mentally and physically, and after a travel day to Houston. Game two will be closer. While I do believe the Rockets are the better team and Paul and Harden are much better than Westbrook and co., I don't think this will be a sweep and would be surprised if the Jazz don't win at least one game.

I am just hoping that we don't see another Highndry thread about the typical Jazz slide in the playoffs...I guess if he keeps guessing at some point he will be right.


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## Kwalk3

wyoming2utah said:


> I am just hoping that we don't see another Highndry thread about the typical Jazz slide in the playoffs...I guess if he keeps guessing at some point he will be right.


I think it's safe to say that this season has been anything but typical. The Jazz have exceeded expectations without a slide, and have now won when it counts. That's been my frustration with the multiple threads from HND the whole time. It the only thing that counts is a finals win, then that's a ridiculous bar to set, especially for a team led by a rookie.

The Jazz were never going to win a championship this year, but I'm glad they've been able to make some noise in the playoffs. I hope they can steal a game in the series. Two would be a miracle. Houston is THAT good.


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## RandomElk16

Kwalk3 said:


> Houston is THAT good.


I hope it's their year. A changing of the guard is needed.

A Cavs/Warriors rematch would be lame at this point. I don't think any of the east teams can beat either of those west teams. I know the Cavs suck right now, but I actually give them the best shot against Houston in the East. Philly is better suited for the Warriors, but would be way over their head. They would grab a game though!

The East is on the up. My wishes for next year:

-KD to Washington
-Pacers have a smart offseason, add depth
-Lebron and PG go to LA and they keep Randall
-Hayward and Kyrie are at training camp and ready to ball
-Embiid stays healthy
-Jazz add depth - or potentially an upgrade at PG (Don't get mad Rubio fans)
-Carmelo comes off the bench ;-)


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## caddis8

RandomElk16 said:


> I hope it's their year. A changing of the guard is needed.
> 
> A Cavs/Warriors rematch would be lame at this point. I don't think any of the east teams can beat either of those west teams. I know the Cavs suck right now, but I actually give them the best shot against Houston in the East. Philly is better suited for the Warriors, but would be way over their head. They would grab a game though!
> 
> The East is on the up. My wishes for next year:
> 
> -KD to Washington
> -Pacers have a smart offseason, add depth
> -Lebron and PG go to LA and they keep Randall
> -Hayward and Kyrie are at training camp and ready to ball
> -Embiid stays healthy
> -Jazz add depth - or potentially an upgrade at PG (Don't get mad Rubio fans)
> -Carmelo comes off the bench ;-)


Interesting thoughts. I think all are pretty plausible and even likely.

According to Carmelo, "that is out of the question." I don't see how he could be a starter except for someone like Pheonix who is terrible and would pick up someone like him.

Here's the question I have about Rubio- and I don't know what direction would be best. 
-Who would they get that would fit in the system and not take touches away from Mitchell?
-Is taking touches away from Mitchell a bad thing? Rubio does a lot of great things, but a scoring PG could spread defenses out and make Mitchel more effective and efficient. He'd still get his points, but may not have t work as hard to get them because teams can't double him with another scoring threat partnered with Mitchell. Year #2 will be very interesting for Mitchell. The League will be able to react to him and plan better for him. But he's been really good. I would like to see his efficiency numbers go up, but that may happen with a more effective scorer at PG. 
-I think the Jazz do need another scorer at the 4 spot and go smaller- Draymond Green-esque who can play good defense but still shoot. The league is going away from the traditional 1-5 and small lineups are more common and can be more effective in certain situations. Would Favors stay or is he punching his ticket to a lucrative Free Agent contract? He has earned it this year without injuries and playing pretty well in the role he was in. Good defender in his own right, and the tandem of Favors/Gobert on the floor can be good, unless a team plays small lineup and then it can be challenging. Question- who would fit that bill?
-LB and PG in LA I think will happen. I'm not a Lakers fan per se, but I think it makes sense and would be good to get them relevant again. I'm not sure how a LB and PG combination would work as far as chemistry goes, but it is certainly interesting.

I like it that the East is relevant again and I think it's great that the Sixers are good after being so bad for so long. Parity in the league is a good thing.

Watching part of the Utah/Houston game last night made it apparent that Jazz need a faster #4. CP3 and Harden, while I don't like the style of play they use, were good. I don't like ISO ball that much because it is not great team ball, but they were effective and shot well. That's a talented team that plays more like a team. Capella is quietly really good. Not a bruiser like Adams, but he works and runs and stretches opponents.


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## RandomElk16

caddis8 said:


> -Is taking touches away from Mitchell a bad thing? Rubio does a lot of great things, but a scoring PG could spread defenses out and make Mitchel more effective and efficient. He'd still get his points, but may not have t work as hard to get them because teams can't double him with another scoring threat partnered with Mitchell.


Here is what stands out to me. Jazz were 23rd in OREB this season, and 29th in FGA.

When I watch, I love the defensive presence. That said, it's not uncommon to see the Jazz running to defense while the ball is in the air. You either need to go get the rebound and get another attempt, or make those shots count.

They are middle of the pact in the league for 3P attempt and percent, it a heavy west.

I don't know if that is necessarily Rubio. He is shooting 35% in Playoffs, and shot 41% in regular season. For attempts though, regular season Jae Crowder was second to DM (excluding hood) and shot 38%.

Favors shoots great, but he doesn't get the looks - maybe you are on to something with the 4.

I don't watch the Jazz as much as many of you so you know the gaps better, but they have to get more shots - more offensive boards. If they= game is under 100 they Jazz will win. We saw that with the warriors, when they successfully slow them down they dominate. What happens when you can't slow them down? (Rockets?)


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## wyoming2utah

I don't have any problem with the Jazz retreating to the defensive end after shots; it is part of the defense first philosophy the Jazz seem to have. I believe they are playing to a strength. I believe that the Jazz offense improved with Rubio over the course of the season and the Jazz are better because of him and not despite of him. I want to keep him. I also believe that the low number of FGA for the Jazz is linked to place of play as much as anything else. The Jazz are playing to a pace that, again, is part of their defensive philosophy and to their strength. I would like to see the Jazz improve their 3 point accuracy, their offensive efficiency, and would like another scorer. But, I don't want someone who needs the ball in their hands a lot or who has to play off the pick-n-roll.

This may sound crazy, but I think Paul George would fit in the Utah system perfectly and could play the 4 with Gobert in the game. I know it is highly unlikely that he would even consider the Jazz and the Jazz may not even be interested, but his affinity for Mitchell (as well as other players around the league) and Mitchell's rising star status could conceivably draw some really good players willing to play on a good playoff team. I also think that George would be a good fit even if Favors stays...the finances may not make that possible, but I think it would be an awesome match!


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## caddis8

oh, that's a great idea. I hadn't thought of him. Finances will get in the way, but there is a strong corps of young talent with Utah. Instead of cussing at George (that's my new pup's name by the way) for pushing through offense and constantly hounding, he could fit very well. 

I don't think Mitchell would complain about having to give up touches and shots if the team was better because of it.


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## wyoming2utah

The key for Mitchell moving forward is his progress in terms of becoming more efficient. One way to do that is to take some pressure off him and allow him to play off other players more. Another is to help him develop his ability to be a playmaker for other players. His assist stats should rise as defenses key more and more on him. I think a lot of his mistakes--especially his shot choices and turnovers--will and can be reduced without it affecting how many points he scores.


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## RandomElk16

Ok wait wait... I got all this crap that there wasn't enough possessions for Hayward to have the ball, and then you propose Paul George?

I complemented their affinity for defense. I am just saying, that "strength" alone won't get them out of round two of the playoffs moving forward because the way the game is, these west coast teams can't be slowed. I guess it depends if you want to be happy with playoffs each season or start being a contender for the WC. I am not saying stop playing defense, but they do need to get more shots and they do need to make them. That's just the math of it.


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## wyoming2utah

Yep, I think George could play off the ball really well. I don't think Hayward could. In fact, as good as all those young players in Boston are doing, I doubt seriously that Hayward will get the touches he got in Utah either and his stats will show it. I wouldn't be surprised if Hayward's best years are now in the rear view mirror! He will never again be the center piece of an offense...

I think George could do what Crowder currently does but much more efficiently. If George's usage rate were down around 17-19% like Crowder's currently is, I think he would be a very efficient and excellent fit with the Jazz. Whether he would be willing to do that or not is another question...and whether he would be willing to do it for the amount of money he would get in Utah is an even bigger question.


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## RandomElk16

wyoming2utah said:


> I think George could do what Crowder currently does but much more efficiently. If George's usage rate were down around 17-19% like Crowder's currently is, I think he would be a very efficient and excellent fit with the Jazz. Whether he would be willing to do that or not is another question...and whether he would be willing to do it for the amount of money he would get in Utah is an even bigger question.


So... to clarify: So we don't interfere with a second year player, you take a player like Paul George, pay him the max, and give him his lowest usage rate of his career?

Paul is better than Hayward. I just got so much heat from you specifically that Hayward wouldn't fit and that usage was a big reason for that, but then you bring up a guy like George who has had rates above 30%. It's just really funny to me the way you guys argue things.

If you want someone to sit at the 4 and be off the ball, you would be better off pursuing someone with a moderate contract like Kevin Love. Lebron will leave and that will be one of the first pieces to go. He doesn't have the same defense as PG, but he also costs less, doesn't need the ball, and is more realistic to get.


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## wyoming2utah

Whether a guy would come or not depends on what his goals are. I don't know Paul George and don't know what he wants at this point in his career. But, I do know that a lot of guys are willing to sacrifice personal gain for team success. If Paul George were willing to do that, he could still maintain good stats and help a team win big games and possibly a championship.

The idea isn't to hinder a second year player; it is to take the pressure off that young player, give him some help with someone he already likes and respects, and allow him to continue to develop and become more efficient.

Again, to me it is about making pieces fit and combining the talents of guys to help a team win games. I think Paul George doesn't need a high usage rate to put up numbers. I do think Hayward does. Part of the reason I would love Paul George is because he is a good defender unlike Love. I get that Paul George is unrealistic but I also understand that he has a small connection to Utah with his friendships to both Donovan Mitchell and Steve Cleveland. Whether he would be willing to accept a contract that is not a max offer and play a role where he doesn't have the ball as much, is definitely a stretch. But, it never hurts to talk to him and see what his thoughts are. Maybe, just maybe a guy like George recognizes that the type of ball played in OKC doesn't work in the playoffs very well....and maybe, just maybe Paul George wants to win more than he wants personal stats!


----------



## Catherder

A few random thoughts here and there.

1.


wyoming2utah said:


> Those Thunder fans and anybody else whining about the no call at the end should have been thankful they had the chance in the first place--directly before that shot, Mitchell was hammered on a rebound attempt by Grant. Grant came over his back, whacked him across the head and shoulder and deflected the ball out of bounds off Mitchell.


In real time, it wasn't obvious to me as I watched, but the replay showed how egregious that (non) foul was. Considering that they had like 4-5 shots at a 3 in that sequence, the Thunder indeed have only themselves to blame for not pulling even and in truth, I haven't heard much about it after the first night from the national talking heads. Everything on them is now what will happen with their stars in free agency and Melo's "reluctance" to come off the bench.

2.



3arabians said:


> You can really tell they are missing Rubio - just not as organized and the rockets are the best team in the NBA. Hopefully Rubio gets back soon.


I don't think the Jazz would have beaten Houston anyway, but it is a bit disappointing to see them play at less than 100%. Losing a solid perimeter defender and good passer hurts a lot against Houstons offensive and defensive schemes. Along those lines.......

3.



RandomElk16 said:


> -Jazz add depth - or potentially an upgrade at PG (Don't get mad Rubio fans)


I don't know if I'm a huge Rubio fan, but I have touted his importance in the playoffs this year, and the opinion has been validated. I too would love to see an upgrade at PG, but who? Damian Lillard isn't walking through that door. I don't see any available upgrades the Jazz could realistically get in this years FA and trade market.

4. While it is nice to wish, it seems unlikely that the Jazz are going to get any of the superduperstar FA's or Kawhi Leonard (possibly available in a trade). However, we still could improve the team in the aftermath if management is astute. How? What if Lebron and PG end up on the Lakers? They would need to jettison some salary to make it happen. We might be able to get Julius Randle or Kyle Kuzma for a ham sandwich. I would be happy with that, especially if we lose Favors to free agency.

I also still hold out some hope that Exum blossoms next year. The dude shows flashes but it is still apparent that he has a ways to go. I would love to seem him have an entire season where something weird doesn't happen. He is still very young. His development could bring us the quality depth needed without any external moves.

5. Where is Eeyore and the next gloom and doom thread? I hope Sunday didn't make him so depressed he stopped watching? Or maybe it was Friday and he was crushed that the Jazz came through? ;-)


----------



## wyoming2utah

Catherder said:


> 4. While it is nice to wish, it seems unlikely that the Jazz are going to get any of the superduperstar FA's or Kawhi Leonard (possibly available in a trade). However, we still could improve the team in the aftermath if management is astute. How? What if Lebron and PG end up on the Lakers? They would need to jettison some salary to make it happen. We might be able to get Julius Randle or Kyle Kuzma for a ham sandwich. I would be happy with that, especially if we lose Favors to free agency.
> 
> I also still hold out some hope that Exum blossoms next year. The dude shows flashes but it is still apparent that he has a ways to go. I would love to seem him have an entire season where something weird doesn't happen. He is still very young. His development could bring us the quality depth needed without any external moves.
> 
> 5. Where is Eeyore and the next gloom and doom thread? I hope Sunday didn't make him so depressed he stopped watching? Or maybe it was Friday and he was crushed that the Jazz came through? ;-)


I agree with most of this....except that tiny bit about Randle. I am not a Julius Randle fan but would love to get Kuzma! I am also hoping the Jazz find a way to keep Favors...I think he wants to be back and has shown what an asset he is. I think Exum is definitely worth keeping around and don't think he will get a huge contract offer from anyone else. Another guy that interests me is Jabari Parker...again, I don't know if it is possible, but think he would be a good fit.


----------



## RandomElk16

I'm just here for top of the page.


I would be shocked if the Lakers dropped Kuzma, who was one of their most valuable players for them and the better rookie than Ball. They can actually keep Julius if they drop Deng. I am hoping that happens. 

I know Rubio has been important, but this is a career year for him. Maybe he can keep it up, but I believe this is the ceiling. I am still one that you guys jazz fans will hate and attributes their system for success. Joe Ingles isn't doing this on other teams and neither is Rubio. You are getting a lot out of guys compared to what you should expect. So what if you put a good PG in that system?

Rondo and IT are the only starting PG in free agency. Neither would be good for the Jazz. This would have to be through some sort of trade. Again, teams like the cavs will be looking to dump salary if Bron leaves, OKC might too. So a three way trade may net you some good stuff.

Now in terms of the 4... there are a LOT of options in free agency.


----------



## Catherder

Couple more comments.

1.


wyoming2utah said:


> Another guy that interests me is Jabari Parker...again, I don't know if it is possible, but think he would be a good fit.


The local connection holds a definite appeal, however, the reason he has fallen out of favor some with the Bucks is because of defensive deficiencies. With the Jazz's emphasis on defense, I'm not sure they would make a run for him at this time. The scoring punch would certainly help though.

2.


RandomElk16 said:


> I know Rubio has been important, but this is a career year for him. Maybe he can keep it up, but I believe this is the ceiling. I am still one that you guys jazz fans will hate and attributes their system for success. Joe Ingles isn't doing this on other teams and neither is Rubio. You are getting a lot out of guys compared to what you should expect. So what if you put a good PG in that system?
> 
> Rondo and IT are the only starting PG in free agency. Neither would be good for the Jazz. This would have to be through some sort of trade. Again, teams like the cavs will be looking to dump salary if Bron leaves, OKC might too. So a three way trade may net you some good stuff.
> 
> Now in terms of the 4... there are a LOT of options in free agency.


I agree that the Jazz system may have pushed Rubio to his ceiling, but it has to be noted too that he fits what the Jazz system does particularly well. That makes him even harder to replace that just plugging in someone with similar or improved stats. Even with 3 way trades, the number of available PG's that represents a true upgrade seems small.

As for the Lakers and their young talent, it all depends on the details if they land a "big fish". One rumor I've heard recently was that if they don't get Lebron, they may try to get Kawhi from San Antonio for Ingram and Kuzma. So who knows what happens in potential 3 way trades, once things get going. Maybe someone like Kuzma could end in our lap. (of course, at what price?)

One thing for sure is the offseason will not be dull for NBA fans.


----------



## PBH

RandomElk16 said:


> I am still one that you guys jazz fans will hate and attributes their system for success. Joe Ingles isn't doing this on other teams and neither is Rubio. You are getting a lot out of guys compared to what you should expect. So what if you put a good PG in that system?


You think this is a new revelation?? You haven't been around the Jazz long enough. Let me throw out a few names for you:

Ronnie Brewer
Carlos Boozer
Blue Edwards
Shandon Anderson
Kirk Snyder

many players thrive while playing in Utah. It has always been about the "system" in Utah. Then they leave for other teams, and fall away into mediocrity, never to be heard from again.

Is Rubio benefiting from the Utah system? Certainly! 
Is Joe Ingles benefiting from the Utah system? Yes!

is the Utah system going away? No!

So why wouldn't we expect to get "a lot" out of guys compared to other teams? Good coaching and good systems are supposed to improve player performance. Rubio's numbers have been better this year, but did he hit his ceiling during his first year under a great coach and a good system? I'm not so sure about that. He would definitely be hard to replace...


----------



## caddis8

Look at the Spurs. They have had a system and it has been very successful over the years. This year was significantly different because Kawhi (spelling) was injured. They have a system and when players play within the system the sum of the whole is better than the sum of the parts. I see a change of personnel needed for SA just because of aging players. Greg Popovich is a great coach. He can squeeze talent out of people that others didn't see. They have had great players over the years, but their success has been because of role players playing beyond their individual talent that completes the team. 

Dennis Lindsay was a part of the Spurs roster building success. You can see it happening now. I think they're a #4 (D and 3 guy), better shooting Rubio or scoring threat PG, mature Mitchell and a couple bench role players from being legitimate contenders in the next 3 years. The system can beat great individual teams. Spurs beat the crap out of a couple super star teams because of their team player. Kawhi became great because of talent, coaching his talent, and the system. 

Jazz Defense has been elite, and Defense wins championships. Improve offensive efficiency through some trades and time, and they're close. Closer than some may think. Jazz beat the snot out of GS a couple of times (with full strength GS) and gave the Rockets a run for their money. They played some great ball since January. This is not a fad, it's a trend. It's a super exciting trend to have them relevant again. Overachieving teams are awesome. This team overachieved expectations and battled through injuries. 

Rubio was missed both in Game #6 and #1. Exum isn't the PG answer. Bad hands. Could be a good role player defensive specialist but his offensive efficiency and skills outweigh his defense. He can get to the rim but turns it over too much by forcing it and has bad hands and finishing. Burks isn't a great defender and not consistent enough offensive player to play within the system. Upgrades there and to the bench, and teams will be fearful to play the Jazz.


----------



## wyoming2utah

Sometimes, you can't value what a player brings to the table just by looking at his stats. Rubio makes teams better. I think he has made the Jazz better despite any of his shooting deficiencies...I also believe that he is improving his shooting under good coaching and a good system. This article below sums up, to me, the story of Ricky Rubio:
https://www.deseretnews.com/article...res-why-hes-improving-with-the-Utah-Jazz.html

Upgrading the point guard spot will be very difficult--I don't believe there are many players out there who would be an improvement over Rubio and getting them would be really difficult. Also, I believe Exum is someone certainly worth keeping--his athleticism and quickness are valuable enough to take the minimal risk he is going to cost. Because he has lost two seasons to injury, I believe he still is way below his ceiling and his improvement next year could be really big if he stays healthy. I don't want to lose him.


----------



## caddis8

wyoming2utah said:


> Sometimes, you can't value what a player brings to the table just by looking at his stats. Rubio makes teams better. I think he has made the Jazz better despite any of his shooting deficiencies...I also believe that he is improving his shooting under good coaching and a good system. This article below sums up, to me, the story of Ricky Rubio:
> https://www.deseretnews.com/article...res-why-hes-improving-with-the-Utah-Jazz.html
> 
> Upgrading the point guard spot will be very difficult--I don't believe there are many players out there who would be an improvement over Rubio and getting them would be really difficult. Also, I believe Exum is someone certainly worth keeping--his athleticism and quickness are valuable enough to take the minimal risk he is going to cost. Because he has lost two seasons to injury, I believe he still is way below his ceiling and his improvement next year could be really big if he stays healthy. I don't want to lose him.


I don't disagree here because I'm not sure any available PG is better than what Rubio offers. Exum is still an experiment. See moments of good, but then moments of yuck. Yuck could be coached out.


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## RandomElk16

PBH I have been around plenty... 

You are missing my point. What did the Jazz accomplish with those guys? I think it's great the Spurs got brought up. Let's look at their success when Kawhi is hurt....... I'll wait....

The system will get you so far, as we have seen with the Jazz. If guys are at their ceiling or close, then it will only get you that far. Do you want to put it all on Donovan? He has a lot of room to grow, but if he is the only one growing you aren't doing yourselves any favors.

Stat's don't tell all, you are right. I am not going to say Rubio is even a top 15 PG though. Anything I say W2U will argue with so I better start quoting J-notes. I do agree on Exum. He is only a 4th year player and he gets better every season. I don't know if you could get more off the bench, unless you got someone new and had Rubio come off the bench. 

My first statement was add depth. Then I said maybe an upgrade at PG. I could have said PG/PF. I don't think, if you make 0 changes, this team doesn't gets you out of the second round no matter how much DM grows. If it does, you still won't win the WCF. The system is great, but it's not enough to beat the teams that our out now. I don't see the end of these multi-star teams, especially when you look at the next few years of FA.


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## Kwalk3

Tight one heading into the 4th. Kinda disappointed that the Jazz can't hold on to a big lead, but Houston is also built to score points in a hurry. Here goes nothing!


----------



## 3arabians

Kwalk3 said:


> Tight one heading into the 4th. Kinda disappointed that the Jazz can't hold on to a big lead, but Houston is also built to score points in a hurry. Here goes nothing!


Jazz were playing out of their minds in the first half. Now hopefully they can have a chance at the end.

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## 3arabians

That put back dunk by mitchell was one of the most amazing plays I've seen in a long time!!

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## Kwalk3

3arabians said:


> That put back dunk by mitchell was one of the most amazing plays I've seen in a long time!!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Crazy that he seems to pull those out of his hat nearly every game. Things that just make you say, "wow!" How 'bout Ingles? The Rockets plan of leaving him wide open is really working out well for them. 10-13 for 27......yikes.


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## 3arabians

WHOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

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## MuscleWhitefish

Kwalk3 said:


> Crazy that he seems to pull those out of his hat nearly every game. Things that just make you say, "wow!" How 'bout Ingles? The Rockets plan of leaving him wide open is really working out well for them. 10-13 for 27......yikes.


We took home court

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## Kwalk3

3arabians said:


> WHOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


This Jazz team may have ugly stretches within games, but their motto of "Never too high, never too low," is apparent in everything they do. So much fun this year.

Love that we stole one on the road!


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## Catherder

Wow, didn't see that coming. Great team win with contributions from everyone. Burks and Exum really helped. 

The two games here are going to be insane.


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## 3arabians

I am so impressed with that win! Still not world champs but dang!!

#surprisingsomemorepeople

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## Kwalk3

Typical Jazz. Losing when it counts.
.
.
.
.
.
(Am I doing this right?)


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## Kwalk3

Also, Exum looks lost sometimes, and has absolutely awful stretches turning the ball over where he's completely out of control, but the dude is athletic. One of the few guys on the team who can get to the rim seemingly at will. 

His finishing has been better this year, but I've been waiting for him to start throwing it down with some authority when he gets to the rim. That dunk in the closing minutes was huge!

I've always liked Burks too. Was really happy to see him play so well today.


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## 3arabians

Just realized I am headed to the lasals for a few days on friday for a bear/turkey hunt. Gonna miss both home games. 

I guess there are worse things that could happen to a guy. 

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## Catherder

Kwalk3 said:


> Typical Jazz. Losing when it counts.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> (Am I doing this right?)


Uhhhh, no.

I just don't think you have it in you.


----------



## Kwalk3

3arabians said:


> Just realized I am headed to the lasals for a few days on friday for a bear/turkey hunt. Gonna miss both home games.
> 
> I guess there are worse things that could happen to a guy.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


There are very few things that could cause me to miss these two upcoming games, but hunting bears AND turkeys is acceptable.


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## Critter

There is always satellite TV and or radio

But then you would have to stay up past your bedtime to watch or listen. 

Even if they are behind most of the game I think that I would still want to pay attention to the last half of the 4th quarter.


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## wyoming2utah

Catherder said:


> Wow, didn't see that coming. Great team win with contributions from everyone. Burks and Exum really helped.


After game one I was curious to see if Snyder would continue to use Exum, Neto, and Burks to the same extent as he did in the second half of game one. He did. I think it is an interesting adjustment because he seems to be saying that the Jazz need to play more small ball and push the tempo...especially after Rocket misses. Exum and Burks were huge factors in last night's game and showed that their efforts in game one were not a fluke and that the second half of game one was not a fluke.

I think a lot of people--even Jazz fans--forget that Exum is only 22 years old (he will be 23 this summer) and that 2 of his pro seasons have basically been lost to injury. In other words, he is only 1 year older than Mitchell and has lost 2 of his past 4 seasons to injury. If he can stay healthy, he really has a bright future--his defense is legit and his offensive game will only improve. Though he can be frustratingly inconsistent right now, I think that should be expected from a young guy who missed almost the whole season...


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## RandomElk16

If they go to Game 6 I have lower bowl tickets...

So suddenly I am a Jazz fan lol. I need them to win 1 more.


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## Kwalk3

RandomElk16 said:


> If they go to Game 6 I have lower bowl tickets...
> 
> So suddenly I am a Jazz fan lol. I need them to win 1 more.


Glad you're coming around


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## HighNDry

"Also, we'll have to wait for the Jazz to lose game 1 for our resident wet blanket to start a new thread about the Jazz losing when it counts. I'm still excited!! Bring on Sunday!!" ----Kwalk3

"I am just hoping that we don't see another Highndry thread about the typical Jazz slide in the playoffs...I guess if he keeps guessing at some point he will be right." ---wyoming2utah

I've purposely stayed out of the Jazz comments lately and will continue to do so after reading the above comments. I want to apologize to those who took exception to my stirring the pot. The Jazz have had an exceptional and unexpected season. I could easily see Snyder as Coach of the Year, Gobert as Defensive Player of the Year, and Mitchell as Rookie of the Year.

Thank you for allowing me my freedom of opinion and speech.


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## RandomElk16

HighNDry said:


> "Also, we'll have to wait for the Jazz to lose game 1 for our resident wet blanket to start a new thread about the Jazz losing when it counts. I'm still excited!! Bring on Sunday!!" ----Kwalk3
> 
> "I am just hoping that we don't see another Highndry thread about the typical Jazz slide in the playoffs...I guess if he keeps guessing at some point he will be right." ---wyoming2utah
> 
> I've purposely stayed out of the Jazz comments lately and will continue to do so after reading the above comments. I want to apologize to those who took exception to my stirring the pot. The Jazz have had an exceptional and unexpected season. I could easily see Snyder as Coach of the Year, Gobert as Defensive Player of the Year, and Mitchell as Rookie of the Year.
> 
> Thank you for allowing me my freedom of opinion and speech.


Lol... I don't think their is anything wrong with it Highndry.


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## Catherder

HighNDry said:


> I want to apologize to those who took exception to my stirring the pot.


Well, when one stirs the pot, you should expect a little steam in your face. 

It's kind of hard to be down on the Jazz right now anyways. However, things could change quickly. All in good fun.


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## wyoming2utah

HighNDry said:


> "Also, we'll have to wait for the Jazz to lose game 1 for our resident wet blanket to start a new thread about the Jazz losing when it counts. I'm still excited!! Bring on Sunday!!" ----Kwalk3
> 
> "I am just hoping that we don't see another Highndry thread about the typical Jazz slide in the playoffs...I guess if he keeps guessing at some point he will be right." ---wyoming2utah
> 
> I've purposely stayed out of the Jazz comments lately and will continue to do so after reading the above comments. I want to apologize to those who took exception to my stirring the pot. The Jazz have had an exceptional and unexpected season. I could easily see Snyder as Coach of the Year, Gobert as Defensive Player of the Year, and Mitchell as Rookie of the Year.
> 
> Thank you for allowing me my freedom of opinion and speech.


Oh come on...you posted those threads seemingly to intentionally razz jazz fans. So, you better expect us to razz you back when your predictions didn't come true!

I don't think anyone really took exception to your pot stirring...we just tried to deliver it back! You know, kind of like one of my favorite Shakespearean characters says, "The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction." You shouldn't expect to fling barbs without receiving some in return!


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## Kwalk3

HighNDry said:


> "Also, we'll have to wait for the Jazz to lose game 1 for our resident wet blanket to start a new thread about the Jazz losing when it counts. I'm still excited!! Bring on Sunday!!" ----Kwalk3
> 
> "I am just hoping that we don't see another Highndry thread about the typical Jazz slide in the playoffs...I guess if he keeps guessing at some point he will be right." ---wyoming2utah
> 
> I've purposely stayed out of the Jazz comments lately and will continue to do so after reading the above comments. I want to apologize to those who took exception to my stirring the pot. The Jazz have had an exceptional and unexpected season. I could easily see Snyder as Coach of the Year, Gobert as Defensive Player of the Year, and Mitchell as Rookie of the Year.
> 
> Thank you for allowing me my freedom of opinion and speech.


Have you stayed away because of some innocuous comments, or because your initial assertions were incorrect and you didn't want to own them?

No one is limiting your freedom of speech and opinion. This is a DISCUSSION board. When you share an opinion it is likely going to be discussed, and dare I say, debated.

I apologize if some of my replies have been a little targeted. But, you do realize you've now started 3 pessimistic threads about the last month of Jazz basketball and have basically laughed at people for saying the same things you said above(highlighted red).

Your pot-stirring provided for a lot of fun discussion(which I thought this was)? You've admitted to stirring the pot, and are now surprised that there was any push-back. It's all in good fun. We are talking about a game after all.

Your contributions are as welcome as everyone else's even if we disagree.


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## PBH

Charles Barkley said:


> Someone should just punch him in the face.


:!:


----------



## Kwalk3

Gametime!!!



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## Critter

Unless something changes, I'm sorry to say:


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## Kwalk3

Critter said:


> Unless something changes, I'm sorry to say:


Lol. Yep. At least I won't be up til 2 a.m. Eastern watching this one. Hope they show up in game 4.

Disappointing, but man Houston is incredible when they're firing on all cylinders.

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## Catherder

Critter said:


> Unless something changes, I'm sorry to say:


Yep. I wonder how 3Arabians's hunt is going? Hopefully better than the game.

Sooooo, if HighNDry is still participating, here is his chance. ;-)


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## Kwalk3

Catherder said:


> Yep. I wonder how 3Arabians's hunt is going? Hopefully better than the game.
> 
> Sooooo, if HighNDry is still participating, here is his chance. ;-)


3arabians would have to get face-kicked by a turkey and mauled by a bear simultaneously for it to go worse than the game last night. Ugly stuff.

Would love to see them win one more in the series and see Mitchell respond after the first night in a long time where I was reminded he's human AND a rookie.

Not having Rubio initiating offense last night was a killer. They just completely keyed on Mitchell and shut him down.

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## Catherder

Better effort, not enough offense, no Rubio and limited Favors, and Houston is simply better. Predictable outcome. 

I hope they go down swinging on Tuesday, but it has been quite a year, in a good way, this year. Looking forward to next season already.


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## wyoming2utah

I have a hard time stomaching all the calls that Harden and Paul get compared to how many calls the Jazz guards don't get. The NBA officiating is hard to stomach at times...the inconsistency of how and when fouls are called is annoying.

With that being said, the Jazz are no match against the Rockets without Rubio, Favors, and Exum. And, in this series, Capela has been better than Gobert.


----------



## Kwalk3

wyoming2utah said:


> I have a hard time stomaching all the calls that Harden and Paul get compared to how many calls the Jazz guards don't get. The NBA officiating is hard to stomach at times...the inconsistency of how and when fouls are called is annoying.
> 
> With that being said, the Jazz are no match against the Rockets without Rubio, Favors, and Exum. And, in this series, Capela has been better than Gobert.


You speak the truth. The calls aside, the rockets are clearly the better team this year. They are aggravating to watch at times, but they really are incredibly good on both ends of the floor,

Hard to argue with your statement about Capela. A lot of that has to do with the way the Rockets have schemed against Gobert. They haven't allowed Gobert to be comfortable inside the paint as a rim protector and he's looked a bit lost as a result.

There was an interesting article on The Ringer a few weeks back about how Gobert is absolutely elite, EXCEPT against the Rockets and Warriors.


----------



## PBH

Kwalk3 said:


> Hard to argue with your statement about Capela. A lot of that has to do with the way the Rockets have schemed against Gobert. They haven't allowed Gobert to be comfortable inside the paint as a rim protector and he's looked a bit lost as a result.


This might just be the Jazz fan inside me speaking...but it drives me crazy to see Chris Paul hanging on one arm of either Gobert or Favors, while Capela gets the rebound. Or, watching the two-hand shove in the back to clear them out, while Capela gets another rebound.

We saw this last year against the Clippers (and Paul). How does he constantly get away with this all game long??

This isn't a knock on Capela -- he's been fantastic this series, especially on defense.

We still have [at least] 1 more. I hope they make it interesting.


----------



## Kwalk3

PBH said:


> This might just be the Jazz fan inside me speaking...but it drives me crazy to see Chris Paul hanging on one arm of either Gobert or Favors, while Capela gets the rebound. Or, watching the two-hand shove in the back to clear them out, while Capela gets another rebound.
> 
> We saw this last year against the Clippers (and Paul). How does he constantly get away with this all game long??
> 
> This isn't a knock on Capela -- he's been fantastic this series, especially on defense.
> 
> We still have [at least] 1 more. I hope they make it interesting.


I don't disagree with that either. Chris Paul frustrates the hell out of me for a lot of reasons. I do think Capela deserves some credit on his own though. Dude has been phenomenal.

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## MuscleWhitefish

Kwalk3 said:


> You speak the truth. The calls aside, the rockets are clearly the better team this year. They are aggravating to watch at times, but they really are incredibly good on both ends of the floor,
> 
> Hard to argue with your statement about Capela. A lot of that has to do with the way the Rockets have schemed against Gobert. They haven't allowed Gobert to be comfortable inside the paint as a rim protector and he's looked a bit lost as a result.
> 
> There was an interesting article on The Ringer a few weeks back about how Gobert is absolutely elite, EXCEPT against the Rockets and Warriors.


Gobert's P&R D drives me nuts. He isn't in the same area code as the pick.

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## PBH

Let me get this straight:

Sunday:
A. Chris Paul get's a T for arguing a call late in the game.
B. A fan yells at the ref
C. The ref asks security to escort the fan out
D. Regie Miller (TNT broadcast) mentions that there were fan problems in Utah against OKC as well, playing into the theory that UT fans are "the worst" (Westbrook).

Monday:
A. We find out the fan who security had to escort out for yelling at the ref is Chris Paul's _*brother*_!!

Dang Mormon's are out of control.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> Let me get this straight:
> 
> Sunday:
> A. Chris Paul get's a T for arguing a call late in the game.
> B. A fan yells at the ref
> C. The ref asks security to escort the fan out
> D. Regie Miller (TNT broadcast) mentions that there were fan problems in Utah against OKC as well, playing into the theory that UT fans are "the worst" (Westbrook).
> 
> Monday:
> A. We find out the fan who security had to escort out for yelling at the ref is Chris Paul's _*brother*_!!
> 
> Dang Mormon's are out of control.


Maybe CP3's brother got baptized. ;-)


----------



## 3arabians

Wow! I didnt miss much. Glad I took my daughter down to the lasals instead of staying home and cussing at the TV.

Here are some pics of my weekend. No turkeys unfortunately. We had a chance at a big Tom but he was on to us and bolted out of range. Boy, do I suck at Turkey hunting, let me tell ya.
































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----------



## RandomElk16

PBH said:


> Let me get this straight:
> 
> Sunday:
> A. Chris Paul get's a T for arguing a call late in the game.
> B. A fan yells at the ref
> C. The ref asks security to escort the fan out
> D. Regie Miller (TNT broadcast) mentions that there were fan problems in Utah against OKC as well, playing into the theory that UT fans are "the worst" (Westbrook).
> 
> Monday:
> A. We find out the fan who security had to escort out for yelling at the ref is Chris Paul's _*brother*_!!
> 
> Dang Mormon's are out of control.


He came back after one play, and his side was this:

"The guy next to me called (referee James Williams) a (expletive), but they thought it was me," C.J., who played collegiately at Hampton University and University of South Carolina-Upstate, told USA TODAY Sports. "The thing is, I know James. He reffed me in college. But (the security guard) comes up to me, and says 'Hey, we need to talk to you in the back.' I said, 'for what?' I told them what happened. I don't talk like that."

Was it a different fan? Who knows...

Regardless I have seen the behavior at Jazz games and it fits what's been said. Do I think other stadiums are different? NO. As much as sports bring out some great things, they also can bring out some of the worst in people. Utah isn't unique on either end of the spectrum. (Except BYU throwing stuff ;-) )

As far as "bad calls" - the game wasn't lost because of that. The "ref" narrative is a part of every series by both teams.


----------



## wyoming2utah

RandomElk16 said:


> As far as "bad calls" - the game wasn't lost because of that. The "ref" narrative is a part of every series by both teams.


Let me first say that Houston is the better team without question and I do agree that neither of the last two Jazz games were lost because of officiating. But, I do think the NBA is about revenue and the league knows who generates revenue--star players. The NBA has always been about protecting the stars and making sure those stars stay in the game as much as possible, so calling fouls on the likes of Harden and Paul potentially hurts the NBA product if those players are in foul trouble to the extent that they have to sit.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but the Tim Donaghy scandal from a few years ago rings to true for me simply pass off his words as the rantings of an angry ex-employee. Donaghy said not long ago that "they [the NBA] definitely program and train these referees to go out on the floor, and look for certain things, to put teams at advantages or disadvantages, based on who's up or down in the series." Donaghy also said, "The way it was back then, was that the NBA would come in in order to extend a series, to go over plays that they felt should have went in Miami's favor that didn't and that went in Dallas's favor that shouldn't have and they started to program and training the referees to look for certain things." He claimed that although the league didn't "fix" games, they did program their officials to look for certain things against specific teams and that doing so definitely helped created an edge.

Though much of what Donaghy claimed was swept under the rug, it is a pretty scary scandal and keeps me from fully trusting the integrity of the league and its officiating!

Read this:
http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?id=3436503

And, if you enjoy this conspiracy theory, read this:
http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/p...nal-gambler-s-take-on-the-tim-donaghy-scandal
and this:
http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=DonaghyStern-080611
and this:
http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401


----------



## RandomElk16

wyoming2utah said:


> Let me first say that Houston is the better team without question and I do agree that neither of the last two Jazz games were lost because of officiating. But, I do think the NBA is about revenue and the league knows who generates revenue--star players. The NBA has always been about protecting the stars and making sure those stars stay in the game as much as possible, so calling fouls on the likes of Harden and Paul potentially hurts the NBA product if those players are in foul trouble to the extent that they have to sit.
> 
> Call me a conspiracy theorist, but the Tim Donaghy scandal from a few years ago rings to true for me simply pass off his words as the rantings of an angry ex-employee. Donaghy said not long ago that "they [the NBA] definitely program and train these referees to go out on the floor, and look for certain things, to put teams at advantages or disadvantages, based on who's up or down in the series." Donaghy also said, "The way it was back then, was that the NBA would come in in order to extend a series, to go over plays that they felt should have went in Miami's favor that didn't and that went in Dallas's favor that shouldn't have and they started to program and training the referees to look for certain things." He claimed that although the league didn't "fix" games, they did program their officials to look for certain things against specific teams and that doing so definitely helped created an edge.
> 
> Though much of what Donaghy claimed was swept under the rug, it is a pretty scary scandal and keeps me from fully trusting the integrity of the league and its officiating!
> 
> Read this:
> http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?id=3436503
> 
> And, if you enjoy this conspiracy theory, read this:
> http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/p...nal-gambler-s-take-on-the-tim-donaghy-scandal
> and this:
> http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=DonaghyStern-080611
> and this:
> http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401


Oh I have my doubts.. when the Warriors barely win and have 3x the free throws, it's fishy.

I do hear a lot towards Lebron (a star) getting calls but honestly his size leads to a ton of no-calls. So I am split. Sometimes it seems favored, other times the opposite.

So I tend to think it balances. CP3 shot from half court would have been 3 shots for Curry, without a doubt because I have seen the exact play and they say "thats what the rule says" - same with the PG shot.

I honestly don't know. I like the UFC motto though: "Never leave it in the judge's hands."


----------



## brisket

wyoming2utah said:


> Let me first say that Houston is the better team without question and I do agree that neither of the last two Jazz games were lost because of officiating. But, I do think the NBA is about revenue and the league knows who generates revenue--star players. The NBA has always been about protecting the stars and making sure those stars stay in the game as much as possible, so calling fouls on the likes of Harden and Paul potentially hurts the NBA product if those players are in foul trouble to the extent that they have to sit.
> 
> Call me a conspiracy theorist, but the Tim Donaghy scandal from a few years ago rings to true for me simply pass off his words as the rantings of an angry ex-employee. Donaghy said not long ago that "they [the NBA] definitely program and train these referees to go out on the floor, and look for certain things, to put teams at advantages or disadvantages, based on who's up or down in the series." Donaghy also said, "The way it was back then, was that the NBA would come in in order to extend a series, to go over plays that they felt should have went in Miami's favor that didn't and that went in Dallas's favor that shouldn't have and they started to program and training the referees to look for certain things." He claimed that although the league didn't "fix" games, they did program their officials to look for certain things against specific teams and that doing so definitely helped created an edge.
> 
> Though much of what Donaghy claimed was swept under the rug, it is a pretty scary scandal and keeps me from fully trusting the integrity of the league and its officiating!
> 
> Read this:
> http://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?id=3436503
> 
> And, if you enjoy this conspiracy theory, read this:
> http://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/p...nal-gambler-s-take-on-the-tim-donaghy-scandal
> and this:
> http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=DonaghyStern-080611
> and this:
> http://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401


Jordan pushed off.

#neverforget


----------



## BG1

Totally happy with the Jazz year. What I do hope is that Houston gets a serious whoopin by Golden State. As much as I can’t Satan’s Draymond, I hate Harden and Paul much worse!


----------



## BG1

And then I want Labron to take it all. If it’s not the Jazz, I want the east to win.


----------



## PBH

BG1 just made me throw up in my mouth.

Seriously. I hate Chris Paul. I really don't want him to win a championship. And I really don't want GS to win another. And Lebron winning would just plain suck -- come on Toronto, WTH?? Sweep? Ugh.
Ben Simmons winning would be a slap in the face. Why not just give him Lebron's crown now? 

That leaves Boston. Which is fine with me. That one guy that broke his ankle isn't playing. And the other guy -- I think his name is Irving -- is also hurt. The rest of that Boston team is OK by me. Just a bunch of "nobodies" making names for themselves through good play. That's a team I can support.


So, I'm going to sit here and hold out for a UT vs Boston Final! :|


----------



## RandomElk16

Man.. BG I have to disagree on the Warriors. 

KD and Dray are 1 and 2 in total ejections, 2 and 3 in techs, and the Warriors lead the team in techs. For as much as they talk about "other people", they sure whine a lot for a team with 4 allstars.

Not even hating... They are extremely talented, and had the luck needed (as well as talent) to do what they have done. KD was the last straw though. I am ready for a shift in power in the west. Rockets aren't likely to be a dynasty. They just need to bump the Warriors - Then KD should go home to Washington for the max instead of taking a discount as the second best player in the league, Klay will go for a max (insanely enough) in 2019. 

That leaves the throne open in the west (for you Jazz fans maybe?)


----------



## 3arabians

RandomElk16 said:


> Man.. BG I have to disagree on the Warriors.
> 
> KD and Dray are 1 and 2 in total ejections, 2 and 3 in techs, and the Warriors lead the team in techs. For as much as they talk about "other people", they sure whine a lot for a team with 4 allstars.
> 
> Not even hating... They are extremely talented, and had the luck needed (as well as talent) to do what they have done. KD was the last straw though. I am ready for a shift in power in the west. Rockets aren't likely to be a dynasty. They just need to bump the Warriors - Then KD should go home to Washington for the max instead of taking a discount as the second best player in the league, Klay will go for a max (insanely enough) in 2019.
> 
> That leaves the throne open in the west (for you Jazz fans maybe?)


I agree with everything in this thread!!

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## MuscleWhitefish

I hope the Jazz win tonight, but I am doubtful. 

Anyway, here is the 411 on the Jazz off-season. 

Derrick Favors - Unrestricted Free Agent. Probably wants a lot of dough. 

Daute Exum - Qualifying Offer (6.6 Mil)/ Restricted Free Agent, will probably test the market. The Jazz will probably match any offer. 

Jonas Jerebko - Team Option 4 Millon. I can see this going either way. 

Raul Neto - Qualifying Offer (1.8 Mil) / Restricted FA. I can see Neto opting out to try and go somewhere will more playing time.

Alec Burks - On salary for 11 million. This is probably a pretty sexy expiring contract that some team may look to deal for or the Jazz may look to buy him out if they want to keep Favors. 

The Jazz also have their 1st and 2nd round draft pick this year.


----------



## wyoming2utah

I can see the Jazz trying to trade Alec Burks and maybe packaging with sign and trade deal with Favors. But, I really want Favors to return. I just don't know if financially it will work. I think, though that Favors wants to come back. I also like Neto and hope the Jazz can keep him and Exum behind Rubio as 2nd and 3rd options. The guy I wouldn't mind the Jazz trading and giving up is Crowder. I like his toughness and what he has brought to the team and believe he was a great pickup, but I think we are seeing his ceiling!

Whatever happens, it will be an interesting offseason for sure!


----------



## gdog

Don't you guys realize the NHL playoffs are on? Good hell...basketball _/O*(())*


----------



## Critter

gdog said:


> Don't you guys realize the NHL playoffs are on? Good hell...basketball _/O*(())*


My team is out of the NHL playoffs but the team that beat them is still in it. We'll see what happens in the next game

For some reason I wanted to see the Vegas Golden Knights loose, but it looks like they are the real deal. Not bad for a expansion team.

I actually like watching hockey a lot more than B-ball. While there are a few non calls the refs do a pretty good job for as fast as the action is.


----------



## 2full

I never liked to watch hockey. 
And I grew up back in the mid east, where they play a bunch of hockey.


----------



## Kwalk3

Everybody out here seems to be all hockey and Buffalo Bills. I go to the gym at night and they don't even have the NBA playoffs on the tv screens. Seems strange to me.


----------



## gdog

Kwalk3 said:


> Everybody out here seems to be all hockey and Buffalo Bills. I go to the gym at night and they don't even have the NBA playoffs on the tv screens. Seems strange to me.


....sounds like home to me! 8)


----------



## Kwalk3

gdog said:


> ....sounds like home to me! 8)


You from the East originally?

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## 3arabians

Hey, lets cut out the small talk. Jazz are in it!!

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## Critter

Mitchel is out, Jazz are out


----------



## Catherder

Dang, great effort but we ran out of guards. What is it with injuries? 

Amazing third by Donovan.


----------



## BG1

Basketball is over. Labron will win it this year. Time to go fishing and forget about ball sports.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish

BG1 said:


> Totally happy with the Jazz year. What I do hope is that Houston gets a serious whoopin by Golden State. As much as I can't Satan's Draymond, I hate Harden and Paul much worse!


The NBA playoffs offically suck now.

Rockets - can't root for.

Warriors - can't root for.

Celtics - can't root for.

Cavs - I guess I have to root for.


----------



## PBH

gdog said:


> Don't you guys realize the NHL playoffs are on? Good hell...basketball _/O*(())*





BG1 said:


> Basketball is over. Labron will win it this year. Time to go fishing and forget about ball sports.


Hockey? forget about ball sports?

You guys realize that baseball is on, right?
8)


----------



## wyoming2utah

PBH said:


> Hockey? forget about ball sports?
> 
> You guys realize that baseball is on, right?
> 8)


Ahhh...baseball. The best ball sport of all! Is hockey even a sport? It is almost as unbearable to watch as soccer...almost!


----------



## Critter

The problem that I see with hockey is that people have a hard time following the puck. It is also a lot faster moving game that a lot of people just don't want to try to figure out. 

I have learned on hockey to watch all the other stuff that is happening out on the rink instead of following the puck. It gets a lot more interesting that way.


----------



## CPAjeff

Great effort by the Jazz - what an incredible third quarter from Mitchell. 

My prediction:
Warriors over Rockets in five in the WCF, Cavs over Celtics in six in the ECF, Warriors over Cavs in six in the Finals - yahoo! 

But how sweet it would be to see the Warriors sweep the Rockets!


----------



## Catherder

A few random thoughts.

1.


MuscleWhitefish said:


> Rockets - can't root for.
> 
> Warriors - can't root for.
> 
> Celtics - can't root for.
> 
> Cavs - I guess I have to root for.


Am I the only one who is excited to watch the Dubs and the Rockets? I don't know that I have a strong rooting interest either way, but the 2 best teams in the league all year going at it will probably be better than the NBA finals. I also don't personally don't have a strong dislike for either team either. I expect the winner will kick the crap out of the Eastern conference winner regardless of who it is. Can't say I have much like for either East team, TBH.

2. 


gdog said:


> Don't you guys realize the NHL playoffs are on? Good hell...basketball _/O*(())*


Must admit that I've been following the Jazz and the NBA closely, but I can talk a little hockey if you like. So glad to see Ovechkin finally beat the Penguins and the Vegas team's run is something to behold. I will probably be watching a lot more of it now that the Jazz are done.

Hockey is a lot of fun to play and with a modicum of understanding is fun to watch on TV. However, it is a sport best enjoyed live, in the arena.

3.


MuscleWhitefish said:


> Anyway, here is the 411 on the Jazz off-season.
> 
> Derrick Favors - Unrestricted Free Agent. Probably wants a lot of dough.
> 
> Daute Exum - Qualifying Offer (6.6 Mil)/ Restricted Free Agent, will probably test the market. The Jazz will probably match any offer.
> 
> Jonas Jerebko - Team Option 4 Millon. I can see this going either way.
> 
> Raul Neto - Qualifying Offer (1.8 Mil) / Restricted FA. I can see Neto opting out to try and go somewhere will more playing time.
> 
> Alec Burks - On salary for 11 million. This is probably a pretty sexy expiring contract that some team may look to deal for or the Jazz may look to buy him out if they want to keep Favors.
> 
> The Jazz also have their 1st and 2nd round draft pick this year.


1. Favors will garner some interest, but with him not being a "stretch 4" that is in vogue right now, he may not get a huge offer or it may be from a bad team. I think the Jazz are interested in keeping him and may spend more than they would have even a few months ago.

2. Exum; They will likely match any offer. I still maintain that if he can make a significant leap in development he is our best hope as a team to "take the next step up".

3. Jerebko; Jazz will keep him. Nice, affordable contract for decent bench help.

4. Neto; I agree with Muscle that he will probably try the waters elsewhere.

5. Burks; May be trade chip at some point, but I think the Jazz liked what they got out of him in the playoff run this year. The expiring contract might be a nice asset to have for the 2019 offseason and some juicy FA's that will be available then.

4.


PBH said:


> Hockey? forget about ball sports?
> 
> You guys realize that baseball is on, right?
> 8)


LOL, Baseball on TV just doesn't do it for me. I do like going to the ballpark and watching a game while relaxing. I suppose it is similar to hockey in that regard. ;-)

5.


BG1 said:


> Time to go fishing and forget about ball sports.


Can't forget about sports totally, but Brookieguy may have a winner!


----------



## PBH

Soccer is the only sport I know that punishes participants for being faster than the other team. Maybe hockey has the same rule - I don't know. Weird. Blow the whistle and say "hold on! You can't get in front of the defender. You have to wait for them."

Baseball is a sport that you don't have to be an athlete to play. Examples of this are Greg Maddux and John Kruk - two professionals who excelled in their sport without being physically and athletically gifted. Success in baseball very often times comes down to being mentally superior. It's also one of the only sports in which the defense has the ball.

Baseball is more like a _good _story or movie. There are characters, a setting, a plot, some conflict or climax, and a resolution. When done properly, the game (or story) engulfs the spectator, stimulates the emotions, and leaves the spectator with a feeling of satisfaction at the end.

The NBA is more like a bad movie (ie: The Fast and the Furious), where character development is thrown out the window (the biggest / strongest / beautifullest wins), the setting determines the outcome, the plot is predetermined (we already know the outcome), climax is a steady stream of CGI mayhem, and there is no resolution (no plot development means no need for resolution). The spectator is filled with simple adrenaline, leaving any mental stimulation in the dust and a feeling of confusion at the end.

During the summer I find myself watching baseball games between teams in which I have no favorite. I end up being engrossed by the game. My girls might ask "who are we rooting for?" to which I often reply "I don't know...". It confuses them. The mental side of this game, as well as the mastery of these professionals, keeps me coming back for more.

Admitting to not liking baseball says a lot about the character of a person.


----------



## gdog

wyoming2utah said:


> Ahhh...baseball. The best ball sport of all! Is hockey even a sport? It is almost as unbearable to watch as soccer...almost!


Baseball...like PBH states for fat non-athletes.....


----------



## Critter

Baseball is something that you need to be at the game itself for it to be interesting. It is also a game where you can go away for 30 minutes and come back and you haven't missed a thing. 

I watched a hockey game this season and turned the channel for a couple of minutes and then came back to it and 3 goals had been scored. This all happened in less than a minute on the game clock. Hockey is also a sport where you see very little one on one play like basketball. Usually if a player tries to do this the gets the puck taken away or he gets slammed into the side boards.

Basketball is turning into a one man sport. I dribble down and take a shot or you dribble down pass to me and I take the shot. This last series with the Jazz I got upset when Mitchel would dribble down the court wait until there was 5 seconds on the shot clock and then try to drive into the paint only to miss the shot. The other 4 players just sat around waiting. It seamed to me at least that the Jazz did better when they were passing the ball around the parameter quite fast and then finding the open player to take a uncontested shot.


----------



## PBH

Critter said:


> Baseball is something that you need to be at the game itself for it to be interesting. It is also a game where you can go away for 30 minutes and come back and you haven't missed a thing.


didn't miss a thing? You certainly aren't paying enough attention. Sure, the score may be the same, but a lot happened in that 30 minutes!



Critter said:


> I watched a hockey game this season and turned the channel for a couple of minutes and then came back to it and 3 goals had been scored. This all happened in less than a minute on the game clock.


Wow! That most certainly is _*NOT*_ the norm. 3 goals in less than a minute of a 60 minute game! How many goals were scored during the rest of the 59 minutes?

I watched a baseball game this season and turned the channel for a couple minutes and then came back to it and 10 runs had been scored. This all happened in 1 inning.


----------



## Kwalk3

Glad we've found something else to argue about here.... 

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## MuscleWhitefish

May this Meme live on


----------



## Kwalk3

I hope the shrine is made to be a permanent fixture in Downtown SLC. I'd like to make a pilgrimage in the upcoming months.


----------



## wyoming2utah

gdog said:


> Baseball...like PBH states for fat non-athletes.....


Yet, some of the greatest athletes in the world have failed at playing it (Michael Jordan) and some of the greatest athletes play it (Dave Winfield was drafted in the NBA, MLB, and the NFL)!

That's what makes it great....athleticism certainly can help, but it doesn't make one great!


----------



## RandomElk16

Why the hate on Hockey? Rules are very straight-forward. Punishments are clear. The game is fast.. It's also not something everyone can do. 

What other playoff sport will they play two full games? Over time is a whole extra period. It heads to double and triple OT in the playoffs. It's a very team oriented sport too - you are only as good as your weakest player. You can't be a "Lebron" and win. Shift changes and hustle won't allow you the luxury of taking plays off. 

It takes chemistry. The best basketball teams have that - it's how you win a ship. It's why teams like the Jazz and the Celtics have over delivered. The chemistry can't be denied. 


Also - I understand being a fan... I don't understand being a hater. If my team lost to the Rockets, I would want them to win it all. It further justifies "why" we lost to them. Not just that, but as a Jazz fan I would absolutely hope for the fall of the Warriors. Like I said before, Rockets aren't a dynasty. They can however contribute to the end of the Warriors dynasty. That would heavily shake the league up and benefit the Jazz. It might even help you attract a free agent because the talent and opportunity is there.


I dunno. This was the matchup everyone saw coming. I really hope it's a blood-bath.


----------



## gdog

wyoming2utah said:


> Yet, some of the greatest athletes in the world have failed at playing it (Michael Jordan) and some of the greatest athletes play it (Dave Winfield was drafted in the NBA, MLB, and the NFL)!
> 
> That's what makes it great....athleticism certainly can help, but it doesn't make one great!


....and not one of those greatest athletes in the world would even attempt to strap on the skates and try to compete. Whole different level of athleticism, speed and coordination.

Hey...I went to a pro baseball game once. Was in NYC doing some business. Jumped on the subway to some old ball field downtown and bought myself a ticket. Was a gorgeous day out and the fans were really into it. Some skinny guy named "Jeter" hit the ball over the wall and everyone went crazy. Game was ok I guess, but man the beer, hotdogs, nacho's and long list of other stuff were great! :mrgreen: It was a good time. Not sure who won though...


----------



## RandomElk16

gdog said:


> ....and not one of those greatest athletes in the world would even attempt to strap on the skates and try to compete. Whole different level of athleticism, speed and coordination.


Yeah... MJ & Bron aren't playing hockey lol


----------



## PBH

RandomElk16 said:


> Yeah... MJ & Bron aren't playing hockey lol


I'd bet Bo could have.


----------



## PBH

Tom Glavine had three consecutive season with 20 or more wins in MLB. He won his first Cy Young award in 1991. He won another Cy Young in 1998. There is no question he was one of the best baseball players in the world. You could make an argument that he was also one of the greatest athletes.

Tom Glavine was also drafted by the LA Kings in the 1984 NHL draft. He was the Merrimack Valley's MVP as a senior in highschool.


Kirk McCaskill, another baseball player, also played hockey. He was drafted by the Winnepeg Jets.

I'm not so sure that you don't see many cross-sport athletes playing hockey due to the skill required to play hockey. I'm guessing it has more to do with season overlaps. Hockey runs from October - May, just like the NBA. This would make it just a little be hard to play both. NFL would have major overlap conflicts and MLB would have overlap issues as well.

Professional athletes in the MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL are professionals for a reason. I'm sure many of them are gifted enough that, given time, they could make a jump to another sport.


----------



## wyoming2utah

gdog said:


> ....and not one of those greatest athletes in the world would even attempt to strap on the skates and try to compete. Whole different level of athleticism, speed and coordination.


Can you name a single NHL player who played a different pro sport or was drafted by another professional sports team?

I didn't think so....


----------



## wyoming2utah

gdog said:


> .
> Hey...I went to a pro baseball game once. Was in NYC doing some business. Jumped on the subway to some old ball field downtown and bought myself a ticket. Was a gorgeous day out and the fans were really into it. Some skinny guy named "Jeter" hit the ball over the wall and everyone went crazy. Game was ok I guess, but man the beer, hotdogs, nacho's and long list of other stuff were great! :mrgreen: It was a good time. Not sure who won though...


Hey....I went to a pro hockey game once. And, a fight broke out. Sadly, it wasn't even a good fight. I learned then that if I wanted to see a fight I would go to Vegas and watch a real fight--MMA or boxing either one.

What's the worst thing a hockey player can do to you? Pull your shirt over your head and hit you (Why do they do that? it sure makes them look like panzies...why not just duke it out?)!What's the worst thing that can happen to you in golf? You can lose. "What's the worst thing Michael Jordan can do to you? Dunk on you," former infielder Jeff Huson once said. "What's the worst thing Randy Johnson can do to you? He can kill you."


----------



## gdog

PBH said:


> Tom Glavine had three consecutive season with 20 or more wins in MLB. He won his first Cy Young award in 1991. He won another Cy Young in 1998. There is no question he was one of the best baseball players in the world. You could make an argument that he was also one of the greatest athletes.
> 
> Tom Glavine was also drafted by the LA Kings in the 1984 NHL draft. He was the Merrimack Valley's MVP as a senior in highschool.
> 
> Kirk McCaskill, another baseball player, also played hockey. He was drafted by the Winnepeg Jets.


PBH...looks like Glavine and McCaskill never played in the NHL. Glavine chose MLB and McCaskill never made it on the ice for an actual NHL game (dressed once but they didn't play him). Probably better for both career wise in regards to longevity of MLB career over NHL.

From a quick search...since your post got me curious (and I'm not going to act like I knew any of this on my own)...the only athlete who actually played in both the NHL and MLB was this guy, back in the early 1900's...

James Riley: Riley is the first player to ever play both professional baseball and professional hockey. A native of New Brunswick, Canada, Riley began his career in hockey, playing 17 games in the NHL, 90 games in the Pacific Coast Hockey Association and won the Stanley Cup with the Seattle Metropolitans in 1917. In addition, Riley played professional baseball for twelve seasons, from 1921 to 1932, with the St. Louis Browns and Washington Senators.


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## gdog

wyoming2utah said:


> Can you name a single NHL player who played a different pro sport or was drafted by another professional sports team?
> 
> I didn't think so....


Nope...why on earth would they want to step backwards and play...uh..baseball?

I think one of the biggest reasons you don't see NHL players in other pro sports is up until the last +10 years, the NHL was highly populated with foreign athletes, who's originating countries don't embrace the same sports to the same degree as the US. This is changing as the US and specifically US NCAA players are definitely making a bigger impact on the NHL, you may see some cross-over, but I doubt it, since hockey is such a specialized (difficult) sport to play.


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## Critter

Also on the two sport players you don't even see too many in the other sports either. Bo and Deon did it with baseball and football, but I can't think of any others right off the top of my head. 

One thing with hockey is that after the season if they go into the playoffs the players are spent and want to relax instead of heading off to another team to play a different sport. That along with them not able to attend the spring training where they can work on their timing and other things to excel at the other sport and then switching again in the fall. 

My hat is off to those who can do it but there are very few if any right now that still play two pro sports.


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## wyoming2utah

gdog said:


> Nope...why on earth would they want to step backwards and play...uh..baseball? .


Step forwards you mean...besides well, the money, and the chance to keep their teeth, do they need more reasons?


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## PBH

gdog said:


> ... you may see some cross-over, but I doubt it, since hockey is such a specialized (difficult) sport to play.


I don't believe this. Hockey isn't any more specialized than baseball. Or Tennis. Or golf. Or any other sport. Like I already said, I think it has more to do with the seasons and timing conflicts with other sports.

In high school / college you don't play both hockey and football, because they happen at the same time. Same with soccer and baseball. But you do see kids play both baseball and football -- different seasons.

Again, those professional athletes have the basic building blocks to be great. They only need to dedicate their time to learn the skills of the sport they want to play. You can't tell me that Lebron James, all 6'8" and 250lbs of him, couldn't become a hockey player. You can't tell me that an NHL team wouldn't drool over the prospect of King James playing for them, as a defenseman or forward.


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## RandomElk16

Critter said:


> Also on the two sport players you don't even see too many in the other sports either. Bo and Deon did it with baseball and football, but I can't think of any others right off the top of my head.
> 
> One thing with hockey is that after the season if they go into the playoffs the players are spent and want to relax instead of heading off to another team to play a different sport. That along with them not able to attend the spring training where they can work on their timing and other things to excel at the other sport and then switching again in the fall.
> 
> My hat is off to those who can do it but there are very few if any right now that still play two pro sports.


Hey.. I'm a Seahawks fan. Don't forget Russel Wilson is a NY Yankee 

I think playing Hockey full time is difficult to do with other sports because of the season lengths and games. Coupled with the fact the skills also don't cross over the same way. Skating and shooting aren't the same as running, pushing, and swinging a bat. Baseball is one you can play with football because the 4 months and only 16 games of football are nothing and run at a different time then baseball. However baseball, like hockey, has a large amount of games.


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## gdog

PBH said:


> I don't believe this. Hockey isn't any more specialized than baseball. Or Tennis. Or golf. Or any other sport.


Absolutely. Put the ice/skate element into the mix on any of those sports and you add a psychical element/complexity to it, that is not present. I've run across and coached some really athletic kids/people, who excelled in other sports, that flat out could not get the hang of skating (and I'm not talking about just a weeks worth of practice either). Haven't found that any of those people couldn't run(?)

I'd love to see a bunch of +7' monsters playing basketball with skates on!

Seriously, todays sports are so specialized, that I agree players just can't commit the time to play multi sports. Use to be an "athlete" could cross over, but today, it's just not the case.......

......unless your talking about baseball -_O-


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## RandomElk16

gdog said:


> I'd love to see a bunch of +7' monsters playing basketball with skates on!


Large people don't usually do the best on skates. Someone mentioned that teams would love Lebron. In my playing days I started Varsity as a freshmen and at 14 could cripple 18 year old "men". Hockey isn't a sport that favors size either (probably closest related to soccer in that regard).

I would say most basketball and baseball players aren't the greatest at soccer looking at the "desired attributes" as well.


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## PBH

you guys are killing me.

You really think an elite athlete, someone like Walter Payton, couldn't learn to skate?
Or someone like Kyrie Irving?
or Bryce Harper?
or Spida Mitchell.

Give me a break.

Every kid that grows up in Canada is able to skate.
Hell -- Adam Rippon could play hockey.

I honestly think you guys are equating _skill_ to _desire._ I don't think skill is the reason athletes don't cross over.


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## PBH

RandomElk16 said:


> Large people don't usually do the best on skates. Someone mentioned that teams would love Lebron.


Yep. And, most point guards are closer to 6'2. Which is exactly what makes Lebron so unique. His skill-set is not the norm. His size and athletic ability is what has turned him into the 2nd best basketball player to ever play the game.

And you're going to compare him to high school athletics?:shock:

Sure, hand Lebron some skates today, and he very well may look a bit out of place. But pay him $30 million / year to learn how to skate, and I'd be willing to bet that he'd do just fine, and be able to hold his own on the ice.


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## wyoming2utah

Funny, the tallest player in the NHL is actually taller than Lebron. The Bruins are probably glad that Zdeno didn't get the memo on tall players and skates.


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## gdog

PBH said:


> you guys are killing me.
> 
> You really think an elite athlete, someone like Walter Payton, couldn't learn to skate?
> Or someone like Kyrie Irving?
> or Bryce Harper?
> or Spida Mitchell.
> 
> Give me a break.
> 
> Every kid that grows up in Canada is able to skate.
> Hell -- Adam Rippon could play hockey.
> 
> I honestly think you guys are equating _skill_ to _desire._ I don't think skill is the reason athletes don't cross over.


No. Excellence in one activity or skill set doesn't guarantee that level of performance in others...whether it be professional athlete or guy on the street. Not buying it...

You think these guys could compete?


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## RandomElk16

wyoming2utah said:


> Funny, the tallest player in the NHL is actually taller than Lebron. The Bruins are probably glad that Zdeno didn't get the memo on tall players and skates.


And Sidney Crosby is 5'11... so?

Yeah, you love to argue. Typically does not mean always.. but OK.

Name another 6'9 player that excels. The average height in the NBA is more than 6 inches taller than the NHL. Height in the NBA is 100% a factor.

_*There are THOUSANDS people who cannot skate. *_I have played and coached my entire life. I have seen it 1000 times.. but let's keep arguing.

And when I talk about height, you can lay them out just as easily as a small person. It is not like football. Height is NOT a massive benefit in hockey, it is in a lot of other sports.

When I compared Lebron to high school kids... I was meaning that size is not a big benefit in hockey. I don't mind comparing him to high school hockey players though. If you give him 30 million to learn to play now, and put him against a kid who has played 15 years... they would school him. This is from a Lebron fan.

Serena Williams would whoop his *** in tennis no matter what you pay him. He is not a god.


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## PBH

do you guys think hockey players could cross over into horse racing? That might be a good fit.

I think Serena Williams could probably whoop Ovechkin's ass!


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## Critter

Seeing as most hockey players are pushing the scale over 200 lbs I doubt that horse racing is in any of their futures.


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## #1DEER 1-I

The Jazz had an amazing season, exceeded expectations, and proved a lot of people wrong. Sad to see one of the funnest seasons I've watched come to an end. However, they have this kid, and he is just really something


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## gdog

PBH said:


> do you guys think hockey players could cross over into horse racing? That might be a good fit


Ok...now your getting ridiculous ;-)


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> do you guys think hockey players could cross over into horse racing? That might be a good fit.


Probably not a good fit at all, but I wonder how baseball players like the aforementioned Kruk, Bartolo Colon, or Rob Deer would do on the ponies?



PBH said:


> I think Serena Williams could probably whoop Ovechkin's ass!


So? Serena could kick most MLB and NBA players ass too and could probably hold her own with NFLers.

In all seriousness, hockey players are some of the toughest athletes around. You take the pounding of a football player and need both burst and endurance to do well. Wimps don't last long.


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## wyoming2utah

Catherder said:


> So? Serena could kick most MLB and NBA players ass too and could probably hold her own with NFLers. .


Heck yeah...have you seen her? I don't think too many guys out there would want to mess with that woman!


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## wyoming2utah

Catherder said:


> In all seriousness, hockey players are some of the toughest athletes around. You take the pounding of a football player and need both burst and endurance to do well. Wimps don't last long.


Unless he is Wayne Gretzky!


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## Catherder

wyoming2utah said:


> Unless he is Wayne Gretzky!


LOL, it is known that Gretzky was also a skilled baseball player.


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## wyoming2utah

Catherder said:


> LOL, it is known that Gretzky was also a skilled baseball player.


Yes...but, Gretzky (who some claim to be the greatest ever in hockey) chose hockey over baseball because he couldn't be a pro baseball player. In fact, in his own words, he said, "OK, I love baseball, but I'm not going to be a professional baseball player. I'd better head in the direction of hockey."

So, even though he made this decision as a young player and even though he was purportedly a good player, he knew he would never be good enough to play pro baseball...but, he could become a pro hockey player. What's that say about hockey and athleticism?


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## PBH

wyoming2utah said:


> What's that say about hockey and athleticism?


in my own, very humble, opinion this says one of two things:
A. That Gretsky wasn't as athletic as John Kruk
or
B. That Gretsky wasn't as smart as John Kruk

_There's a story, a funny story, about me [Kruk] sitting in a restaurant. I'm eating this big meal and maybe having a couple of beers and smoking a cigarette. A woman comes by the table. She recognizes me and she's shocked because it seems like I should be in training or something. She's getting all over me, saying that a professional athlete should take better care of himself. I lean back and I say to her, "I ain't an athlete, lady. I'm a baseball player".

That pretty much sums it up. In an age when athletes are getting bigger and stronger and more imposing every day, John Kruk of the National League champion Philadelphia Phillies is a hero for the rest of us. He likes his food, he likes his beer, he doesn't see much point in combing his hair and he plays the game of baseball too well for anyone to get away with hassling him about any of it._


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