# Sage grouse listing?



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

So how close is or has the sage grouse been listed as endangered now?


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

http://ecos.fws.gov/speciesProfile/profile/speciesProfile.action?spcode=B06W


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

So threatened for now, do you see it going endangered soon? And do you support it being listed as endangered if needed or not?


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

Stupid if it is listed. Over a million birds in the west. 
Decision is set for sept 2015 but I would bet it gets pushed back.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> So threatened for now, do you see it going endangered soon? And do you support it being listed as endangered if needed or not?


Not threatened, they are proposed threatened.

I can't predict biology, ecology or politics so I can't answer your question.

As far as supporting the decision if it is listed as endangered............that is just far too open ended of a question without knowing the true cause and affect.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...usecanoilandconservationistsworktogether.html


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> So how close is or has the sage grouse been listed as endangered now?


Serious question 1 eye, do you have a job?


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## hemionus (Aug 23, 2009)

Nice write up that explains what your asking how how big game have benefited.

http://www.muleyfreak.com/sage-grouse-big-games-feather-friend/#comment-29044


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Not to worry... Utah just gave Ryan Benson (of Big Game Forever fame) two million bucks to lobby in Montana to get the feds to delay their planned listing next year. Remember Mr. Benson and the other monies the state gave him/Peay for the wolf fight? Yeah..

http://mtstandard.com/news/state-an...cle_4abd7cd2-eb73-5285-9df1-3a8a1c351102.html


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I have a feeling it's more than the lack of sagebrush that's holding down the sage grouse and mule deer.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Oh crap, now I went and used that 'F" word again.
I'm going to hear it from lonetree.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

..................Yea nobody cares what you "feel". We need science. I am not sure what kind, because I didn't go to school, but that is where the mystery lies. I will post a million studies that prove nothing later. Right now I am busy mixing grouse poop and fruit loops in my coffee. My theory is that I will still be nuts and my coffee will still tastes like ****. Go ahead and try to prove me wrong. I dare you...........you know you can't because you are all idiots............now where was I.......oh yea.......fruit loops:mrgreen:


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

You guys are killin' me! ;-)


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

As long as the Greater Sage-grouse hangs around oil and gas drilling they will never be listed.

never

.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

wyogoob said:


> As long as the Greater Sage-grouse hangs around oil and gas drilling they will never be listed.
> 
> never
> 
> .


I would imagin we could get a little gedanken experiment going goob and fairly well prove your post. Yessir...


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

There is a whole lot to deal with on this one 1-I. As was mentioned, far too much political stuff going on with the grouse. It is difficult to separate the political from the biology. And much of that is because the biology is also politically driven. 

In my own opinion, there are areas where the grouse are declining in a big way. Lots of reasons can be pointed to - 100 years of altered fire management, broad decline of sage steppe ecosystems, drought cycles, un-checked fossil fuel development, destroyed leks, grazing practices, OHV use, the come back of raptors like eagles and falcons since DDT was banned, etc.... There are lots of assertions about why the decline. And most of them probably have contributed in one way or the other. 

Like most things though, the grouse thing has become the champion indicator of sage steppe ecosystem management. Meaning, if you want to know how the range is doing, count the sage grouse. If they are stable, the range is stable. If they are increasing, the range is improving. If they are declining, the range is declining. 

But Goob hits a strong point with the oil and gas development. Much of where the latest boom of oil and gas has been in sage steppe areas. There are those that would love to halt the development, so they are using sage grouse as the method to stop it. But the money associated with it is so significant, that the politicians can/will/are stopping the listing in the name of economics, energy policy, and jobs. 

My own thought is that politics aside, our sage steppe ecosystems are certainly evolving due to a variety of conditions. I think there are places where the long-term survivibility of grouse is certainly in question. I also think there are places where the sage grouse at at least stable, if not increasing. My own thought is that if I had to put my finger on just one thing that has impacted it, that would be fire management practices for the better part of the 20th century. Second would be grazing practices for the first half of the century. These two things combined have taken away the natural mosaic and multi-age class sage communities necessary for not just grouse, but most of the wildlife that depend on the ecosystem, including our beloved mule deer. And until we can restore that multi-age class mosaic, we'll continue to get decline in everything that is dependent upon it. 

And there lies the problem with the oil and gas development. With well pads every 5 - 40 acres, with a web of roads (fire breaks) connecting them all, there will be no way to restore any kind of natural fire patterns. Fires will have to be aggressively put out in order to protect the wells.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I think you're completely spot on GaryFish. I think that in some areas it may be disappearing and some areas they are stable. It seems they are facing much of the same problems all of our wildlife face because of us. I feel like oil, grazing, trails, fire, and the other issues can all be solved without being eliminated if they were just done in a better way. After having a brawl or two with Lonetree I have read many different studies on the effects of Se on deer. One reason Se becomes less and less available in an ecosystem is from heavy grazing. I think that a big problem is that cattlemen need to realize they do not have a right to misuse public land that is everyone's. I do believe grazing is a good thing and would keep our public lands healthy if it were done in a better way. Right now both public and private lands are overgrazed throughout the state and it's simply destroying our landscape. I was talking with this with a guy a week or so ago and he made the comment that "now were going to make a worthless bird more important than a beef cow," and I really can't believe people take this train of thought. Just because we don't gain heavy economic value off of something doesn't mean we get to diminish it out of existence. I think fire and grazing are two huge problems at this point, both because by grazing off to heavily you are allowing one of the worst thing thats happened to the western landscape, cheatgrass to gain hold of more and more ground. Anywhere brush burns, cheat grass seems to take over and never leave. It effects the soil in a very negative way causing it so it is one of the only things that will grow very well, makes fire dangers more often and more widespread, and is pretty much useless to wildlife. I think if you could find a way to hault cheatgrass and some how begin getting rid of it, that would help everything a lot.


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I think fire and grazing are two huge problems at this point, both because by grazing off to heavily you are allowing one of the worst thing thats happened to the western landscape, cheatgrass to gain hold of more and more ground. Anywhere brush burns, cheat grass seems to take over and never leave. It effects the soil in a very negative way causing it so it is one of the only things that will grow very well, makes fire dangers more often and more widespread, and is pretty much useless to wildlife. I think if you could find a way to hault cheatgrass and some how begin getting rid of it, that would help everything a lot.


I have always heard that chukars do very well with cheatgrass. I haven't hunted them that often, but I've seen the seeds and the green sprouts in their craws. Do other upland birds or big game not eat it?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

hawglips said:


> I have always heard that chukars do very well with cheatgrass. I haven't hunted them that often, but I've seen the seeds and the green sprouts in their craws. Do other upland birds or big game not eat it?


Yes chukars can do well with cheat grass but they could do well with other grasses and seeds. It is not essential to them but they're one of the only things that benefit . I don't know of any other game bird that does well off it . It destroys areas by taking over and leaving no cover and little food value.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Chukar not only do well in cheatgrass it is their food of choice for a good part of the year, especially in the spring.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

stillhunterman said:


> Not to worry... Utah just gave Ryan Benson (of Big Game Forever fame) two million bucks to lobby in Montana to get the feds to delay their planned listing next year. Remember Mr. Benson and the other monies the state gave him/Peay for the wolf fight? Yeah..
> 
> http://mtstandard.com/news/state-an...cle_4abd7cd2-eb73-5285-9df1-3a8a1c351102.html


Good grief. The article states:
_Last year, the federal Bureau of Land Management unveiled a set of proposals for tightening protections for sage grouse habitat on about 4 million acres of public land in Utah and a small chunk of Wyoming. _

"........on about 4 million acres in Utah........a small chunk of Wyoming" That makes perfect sense. Doesn't Wyoming have the largest population of sage grouse of any state?

"4 million acres"?? I suppose it's because Utah has the rare Gunnison Sage-grouse. That's OK, the Gunnisons aren't in oil and gas country.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Not to be outdone by historical data and the views of a bunch of Commie biologists from the USFWS, public officials from the State of Wyoming representing the oil and gas industry have their own plan to save the poor bird.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/scien...y-management-plan-good-for-grouse-5581873.php

.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

gotta love a truckload of frosting on a cupcake.


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