# Provo Big Horn-Mixing W/domestic sheep



## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

I received a unique call from the Utah DWR on Friday explaining that they were issuing Big Horn sheep depredation tag to me as I was on the alternate list for the closest open unit. Apparently a big horn ewe was hit near Rainbow Bay(South side) on Deer creek on thrusday 5/23. A report was called into the DWR saying that there was a lamb and a Ram with the Ewe. 

Given the obvious danger of the sheep mixing with the domestic sheep (There are domestic sheep in the area) and then returning to the already struggling Provo herd they need to kill these sheep ASAP. They would like to give the opportunity to a hunter to harvest the Ram if possible. 
I was hoping that anyone traveling through that area could keep a look out for any big horns and pass the information along to the DWR or myself. 

Feel free to post any relevant information here or PM me.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

You have got to be kidding me!

Luckiest tag drawing sob thats ever lived.

Why wont the dwr take you to them?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

wow!!! do you know what he looks like?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Yes hes my bud


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

It would seem the division would know where they are and would want them dead now and not durring the season.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

A couple of questions? And, I am very willing to help in any way I can, to locate these sheep.

Did the DWR collect the hit Ewe? Or is she still there on the road? If the DWR did not do a necropsy, I am interested in the Ewes liver. Or the liver of any ewe or lamb that is killed in the area. Ultimately, the DWR should have a liver selenium assay done on that ewe.

Have those sheep dropped their lambs yet? Does anyone know the nominal date that these sheep lamb?

Here is my interest in this. Those sheep should be following the snow line up the mountain this time of year. We had some pretty good rain, and it was early and sustained for May. We should have that rain right now, but we already had it. Around lambing time the need for selenium and other minerals in ewe sheep increases exponentially. If a wet spring has reduced mineral availability in plants, or it is just a poor area mineral wise. Small groups of sheep will head to lower elevations in search of mineral licks. The sides of roads become a favorite place sometimes, because of the use of road salt over the years.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Mountain Time

Do you have the point of contact within the DWR on this? And could you PM it to me? Thanks!

I am willing to put in some scouting time on this, but I am not familiar with the area.


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

Scotty......what can I say.

They do want these sheep taken now. As in, I am going up tomorrow to help look for the sheep. The DWR had field officers/workers up looking for them on Friday and every day since but they haven't had any luck. Other than the one tip they don't have any other information on the sheep. And they don't have the contact information for the person who turned in the tip.

Lonetree, I haven't spoken to the biologist yet. Just some of the field agents that were looking on Friday. They did pickup the ewe but they didn't tell me what they did with it. I just got the contact information for biologist tonight. I will send you a PM. Thanks for your willingness to help, it sounds like you really know your stuff.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

"it sounds like you really know your stuff." I wish, I am learning much of this as I go. I have been looking into this over the last few years pretty extensively. When I saw this thread I jumped on the phone, with someone much more qualified than myself, to run my theory past him, he concurred with my thinking.

Is there someplace everyone is meeting tomorrow? As I said, I am not familiar with the area, But all I really need is some pointing in the right direction. 

Looking back up the mountain, is probably a good idea too. If they were in search of minerals, and found them, they may be headed back up. But if they are need, so are other sheep.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Kill that Zombie Sheep!!!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Places to look.
1) The peninsula between Rainbow bay and Wallsburg bay(mainly the steep open South facing side)
2) the open slopes across the highway from Rainbow bay
3) the open slopes just East of the island, which is just North of Rainbow Bay. 

If this ram heads back towards Timp., it will take a miracle to find it.
Good luck to all those involved.


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## Rspeters (Apr 4, 2013)

I'm a little slow tonight, can someone explain why it's so important to get this ram?


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

This ram is likely to be infected by domestic sheep.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Lol nambaster


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## riptheirlips (Jun 30, 2008)

And I thought it was the wolves that were trying to breed the domestic sheep.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Any luck today?


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Rspeters said:


> I'm a little slow tonight, can someone explain why it's so important to get this ram?


 Wild sheep are infected with a form of pnomonia called Pastrella and can transfer this to the rest of the herd if they are not found and issolated. Infected wild sheep usually die of this infection in about two weeks.

LoneTree is right on track with his thinking in that the sheep are likely mineral deficient and the head down to the roads to get any reminant of salt out of the soil. I have been watching about eleven head of big horn do this most of the spring along the road at the Ceder Hill golf course.

The DWR will not let UFNAWS set out mineral blocks because they think that this consentrates the wild sheep in one area and the sheep are easier for lions to kill. This in my opinon is a mistake as several mineral blocks could be put out in areas that would not create killing grounds for sheep or other game. i mean come -on watering holes have the same problem.
Big


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

so is there a specific ram they want you to target or just any ram within a specific boundary?


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

:grin:


swbuckmaster said:


> Lol nambaster


wut? its not as crazy as eating carp eyes..... :grin:


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Any luck today?


No luck yesterday. Lonetree met up with Corby and I to help cover the area. We talked to the sheep herders in the area and they are already aware of the situation, although they are 'sure' that the big horns won't/don't come around their sheep. I am sure they just don't want any issues with their grazing rights.

If the sheep are looking for minerals there are 2 licks close to the road near rainbow bay.

As far as a specific sheep, we are going off a report that was called in saying that a Ram and another sheep were seen in the are near the dead ewe. So far there hasn't been any additional sightings.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

I drive Provo Canyon every day. If I see anything I'll let you know. I've never seen them in that area before. If you do find him on the hill between Rainbow Bay and the finger running towards the Wallsburg turn you should probably check with the DWR before pursuing him. That area is closed to all hunting and you will want to get the OK before moving on him.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

bigbr said:


> Wild sheep are infected with a form of pnomonia called Pastrella and can transfer this to the rest of the herd if they are not found and issolated. Infected wild sheep usually die of this infection in about two weeks.
> 
> LoneTree is right on track with his thinking in that the sheep are likely mineral deficient and the head down to the roads to get any reminant of salt out of the soil. I have been watching about eleven head of big horn do this most of the spring along the road at the Ceder Hill golf course.
> 
> ...


Just to expound upon this a little further. Domestic sheep carry M. ovipneumonia, which predisposes Bighorn sheep to Pastarella, M. haemolytica, P. multocida, and a few other nasties, that lead to bighorns contracting, and succumbing to fatal pnuemonia. Bighorns may carry several of these bugs, without having mass die offs, but if they make contact with domestic sheep that are carrying M. ovipneumonia, which most of them are, it always leads to death.

There are three things that kill bighorn sheep, and none of them work alone. Much like a fire triangle, where you need fuel, heat, and oxygen, to make fire. So you have domestic sheep, that pass M. ovipneumonia to bighorns, that in turn cause them to become prone to, and suffer from, secondary infections, that lead to death and population declines. Second you have lung worm. Lung worms are carried by gastropods(snails) and are ingested by bighorns when they feed. The lung worms them selves do not kill the sheep, but a heavy worm load, will weaken them, and predispose them to other agents, that cause pneumonia, death, and population declines. Couple either of these situations with a deficiency in selenium, and you have something like a fire triangle. Selenium deficiencies cause a bighorns immune system to be weak, which in turn predisposes it to conditions(lung worms and/or disease), that lead to death and population declines.

Wet springs make for low selenium availability in plants, and an increase in gastropod numbers.

The division's thinking on the salt licks is backwards. Those sheep are seeking minerals that they probably can not get from the road. So they are going to just stay on the side of road, and remain mineral deficient. This occurs in several places in Montana. Placing blocks in a couple of places is certainly a good idea. But they also need to be the right kind of mineral blocks. Like was mentioned with water sources, animals do not concentrate on mineral licks, or water sources, unless there is something wrong with them.

They need to put out mineral licks near the lambing grounds. If they are worried about resource damage, or over utilization, these can be placed seasonally. If these sheep get the minerals they need, and they are healthy, predation is not going to be a concern. Prior to 1980, lion predation of the Whiskey Mountain bighorn sheep herd(largest and most studied in the lower forty eight) was all but non detectable. Only when they had mineral deficient, and/or weak sheep, did predation problems appear. So if the sheep in cedar hills are left on the side of the road, they wont get what they need nutrition wise, they will become weak, and they may get hit by cars. Then they will surely succumb to predation, if they are mineral deficient and weak, when they move to areas where lions are a concern.

When bighorn sheep and goats show up and hang out in places that are not normal, something is wrong. Take a look at the population trend numbers in the latest mtn goat management plan. It takes a steep dip in ~2008. This was the beginning of a very wet cycle(specifically late winter/early spring). The mtn goats did not actually decline though. Unlike bighorns than respond to selenium in a day, mtn goats do not respond to selenium for 30 days, because they are built to live in some of the most selenium deficient environments in the world. When they do become deficient, they drop to lower elevations, and disperse in search of mineral licks. So the steep drop that is seen in mtn goat numbers in 2008, is not an actual population decline, but rather an expansion of goats into new places. They were not as concentrated, and they were at lower elevations, making them difficult to spot on flights. This occurred in several places in the West, not just Utah. Anybody that has watched the Willard unit over the years has seen this play out.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Has the search ended?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I was going to go back out Wed, or Thurs, but that did not happen. I think Mountain Time, was going out today. I am stuck in the shop all weekend, so I wont be looking until next Tues, unless they get lucky this week end.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> I was going to go back out Wed, or Thurs, but that did not happen. I think Mountain Time, was going out today. I am stuck in the shop all weekend, so I wont be looking until next Tues, unless they get lucky this week end.


I know we don't see eye to eye on many things but your a good fella for helping Tom.


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Has the search ended?


Search is still going on.....still no additional sightings at this point. Going to give another go this next weekend.


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

Dahlmer said:


> I drive Provo Canyon every day. If I see anything I'll let you know. I've never seen them in that area before. If you do find him on the hill between Rainbow Bay and the finger running towards the Wallsburg turn you should probably check with the DWR before pursuing him. That area is closed to all hunting and you will want to get the OK before moving on him.


Thanks Dahlmer. Any help we can get is appreciated.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Mountain Time

Did you get my PM? It seems like most of the PMs I send, do not get to the people I send them to. I'm sure I am doing something wrong, I wish I knew what though.

Talking to the bighorn researcher in WY, he says stay close to the spot on road, or the salt put out for the domestic sheep. They are only 1/2 a mile apart. As it could be either road deicer, or the salt put out by the herder, that has the sheep in the area, and we don't know if it was either, or which one. And check those guzzlers, to see if they have water, or if they look like they had water recently.

I am waiting or a phone call today, to see if I am free to go do some scouting tomorrow.

BigBr--Did you get my PM, on this thread?


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Mountain Time
> 
> Did you get my PM? It seems like most of the PMs I send, do not get to the people I send them to. I'm sure I am doing something wrong, I wish I knew what though.
> 
> ...


No, I didn't get your PM. What's odd is I don't any of the others you sent me either.


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