# How do you fine tune for your accuracy load?



## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

I think it would be nice to hear how everyone fine tunes their load development or their process. I know everyone is different and some are looking for more critical accuracy or say minute of animal to a certain yardage. I know you can just about go nuts on how fine tuning and messing with it you want to do.
I bring this up because of me currently working a load up for my 260AI.

I guess I will start and am still in the process, I hope to shoot more groups this weekend. I won't bore you with fireforming brass but here is what I have done so far:
Ackley is a little different because most the time you start with the parent's case max load and start from there carefully working up until you see signs of pressure.

I have had good results in the past doing 300 yard ladders and looking for accuracy nodes. so I loaded 140sst touching the lands in .3 grain increments and shot at 300yards while also looking at pressure. 47.7-48.3 charges were the closest together with the least amount of vertical and were a safe charge below where I found pressure and a large spike.

From there I reloaded 3 shot groups of 47.3, 48, 48.3 touching (same as ladder) and then shot them at 100yards I also shot those charges 30 off because in other 6.5 140sst have shot really well 30 off. 

48.3g touching was the clear winner with a 3 shot group right at 1/2". At this point I could be happy and done, cause I am really hoping for a 1/2MOA or better gun out to 500-600 yards for this application and could see if I could duplicate the load, but curiousity has the best of me and I will see if I can improve at all at that charge trying different seating depths.

This weekend I will shoot 48.3 grains of H4831 touching, 5 off, 10 off, 15 off, and 20 off. In case someone asks I am going away from the lands because this is a hunting rifle. I will actually go back out to 300 yards and shoot these groups. 
I care about it holding at or under 1/2 MOA at that range and I can usually see what the best group is at 300 yards. I will update with my findings.

I know there are several ways to skin a cat and this way is a fast track to finding it for me at least and has worked well in the past. I am hoping to not have to switch powders and primers etc. I really do not want to put that much effort in it, if I can have a 1/2 to 1/3 MOA mid range rifle out to 500-600 yards.

Please share.
Thanks
Bob


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I do basically the same thing, but I use quick loads to eliminate the lowest and highest ends of the pressure ladder test usually leaving me with 3-4 loads in half grain increments to test.

Once I have the charge weight down, I load three at .005 off the lands and three at .050 off the lands. Whichever one shoots best, I start there and load in .010 increments either longer or shorter. 

Once I get really close I will fine tune seating depth in .005 increments and mess with other things like primers and neck sizing dimensions.i have found that sizing the neck at 3-4 thousandths under chamber dimensions has given me the best luck. Sometimes I also experiment with FL, partial, and neck only sizing.-------SS


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

SS-
I like your strategy it sounds good. You use a bushing die to manipulate neck tension? I have gone away with bushing dies as it caused donuts for me. I certainly agree in the merit of some will shoot better under different neck tension.
Have you ever had any pressure issues when switching a primer at your powder charge it likes?
Thanks
Bob


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

OCW is the best method I've come across, way better than a ladder IMO. Here is a website that explains it. He also has a forum where you can post up your results and get input. Started doing this about 3 years ago and have found much more accurate loads for every gun I've tried this with.

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

toasty said:


> OCW is the best method I've come across, way better than a ladder IMO. Here is a website that explains it. He also has a forum where you can post up your results and get input. Started doing this about 3 years ago and have found much more accurate loads for every gun I've tried this with.
> 
> http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/


That was interesting. Thanks for posting.

Which method do modern competitive shooters use, OCW or Ladder? both?

.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

That was a fantastic article! It's funny that with a LOT more work than the OCW method, I ended up with several of the loads that are define as optimum. Thanks a million for sharing this article.-----SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I always thought it was strange we tweak and adjust distances from the bullet to the lands for that optimal grouping, when old Roy Weatherby went the complete opposite way and purposely designed in a TON of freebore for his rifles. Alot of them were super accurate.

I have one rifle that getting the bullet nearly on the lands creates crazy tight groups, but the rest dont seem to care if its just off the lands or set at the official COL. I know I cant get even remotely near the lands with my 7STW and still get them to fit in the magazine box, but the rifle will do .75" groups with certain factory ammo.

I'm glad it works for alot of folk. I get down near 1 MOA for most my rifles and I call it good'nuff. I only have two rifles (22-250 and .223) I push to .5" groups.

I wish I could dig up an article I read a while back (maybe it was on Chuck Hawks) on what goes on within a cartridge when the primer ignites. Some pretty smart people with some very expensive technology measured that for alot of cartridges, the bullet will jump to the lands anyway before the powder ignites. This of course discounts crimped cartridges or cartridges with high neck tension. They had clear indication of this with pressure spikes as the bullet jumped and stopped for the smallest fraction of a second at the rifling. I thought I bookmarked the article as it was really interesting... I search for it from time to time. If I dig it up I'll post it.

_*Edit: I should clarify I'm not saying don't adjust depth off the lands, it certainly can make a difference in the barrels harmonics, only that its not a critical piece of the reloading puzzle for me to get acceptable accuracy.
_

-DallanC


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

The interesting part of this discussion is that there are quite a few methods. All of them seem to work.
I usually pick a bullet I want to use then find a recommended load from a couple sources, use that, and fine tune using COL.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

+1

We should have a thread on what different people feel is acceptable accuracy for their reloads. There are people who will never be satisfied with any group larger than the size of their bullet... and people who just want it to go bang and leave a hole in a pie plate.


-DallanC


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

wyogoob said:


> That was interesting. Thanks for posting.
> 
> Which method do modern competitive shooters use, OCW or Ladder? both?
> 
> .


I work with 2 competitive shooters that are actually pretty good and have both won a couple tournaments this year. They both use OCW and are the ones that got me onto the method. Can't speak for all the rest of the competitive shooters.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

DallanC said:


> +1
> 
> We should have a thread on what different people feel is acceptable accuracy for their reloads. There are people who will never be satisfied with any group larger than the size of their bullet... and people who just want it to go bang and leave a hole in a pie plate.
> 
> -DallanC


I agree, that would be an interesting thread. There are 1000 yard shooters that consider hitting a 36" gong as accurate. Then there are long range varmint guys like me that want to see a maximum of 3" groups at 500 yards.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I've been around competitive bench rest shooters all my life and never heard of this. Goes to show that there is always something to learn. I've already sent the link to the article to a dozen of them.------SS


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I used the OCW method to work up a load for my .30-06 earlier this year. I did a little write up of my experience with the process, http://utahbiggameodds.blogspot.com/p/reloading.html if you want to check it out.

I'm sold on the OCW method.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> I've been around competitive bench rest shooters all my life and never heard of this. Goes to show that there is always something to learn. I've already sent the link to the article to a dozen of them.------SS


I'm fairly surprised you haven't heard of this before. I first started seeing discussions on it back in 2005. It is a good method for sure.

-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I got some feedback from one of my benchrest buddies. He had heard of it but said that with the plethora of data and info within the target shooting world that the best loads and winning loads for each cartridge are very well known. He was able to rattle off the powder of choice with charge for the 6 BR, the 6 XC, the 6.5x284, and the Creedmore from memory. Some guys live for this stuff I guess. Recreation shooters like myself are far from the bubble apparently .-------SS


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

I have read many times about the OCW method but have never done it. 
I do agree that everyone is different of what is acceptable groups and for its application. 

What I am working on is a deer rifle, Savage 110 chambered in 260AI 24" barrel in a boyds Laminate stock shooting 140sst's. 

I was able to shoot 300 yard groups today. 
touching, 5 off, 10 off, 15 off, and 20 off.

My pic is kind of hard to differentiate, but man 10 off, 2 cut each others hole but the 3rd shot the group out high, I kind of wonder if I didnt let my chamber cool down enough  I may reshoot this group because of those 2 cutting each other. 

You can see groups that have vertical stacking which I am not about.

20 off was the tightest group at 1.3" (.43moa) and had the least vertical as well. Like I said in my first post for a hunting rifle many would be happy at under/= 1/2MOA at 300 yards.

This is another reason I believe in shooting groups past 100 yards. The touching group had horrible vertical at 300 yards but shot 1/2" at 100.

When I have the money I want to get a Timmney trigger, this pre accutrigger on this savage 110 is heavy and has creep. I think I could probably do a little better with a 1.5lb crisp breaker.

It is nice to have discussions among shooters and this may help others.

I think I will reshoot 10 off and 20 off at 300+ and probably will be done.
Thanks


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

I usually change my charge in increments of percent of case volume. A 2% increment is a way bigger jump in a .223 than in a .338. I'll take five cases of maybe five to seven different loads to shoot. I can call my shots so I don't worry too much about fliers unless I know it wasn't me. I take my load with the best group and load that with different OALs and see which of those shoot the best. If I can't come up with a satisfactory load, I'l start changing components like bullets, powder or cases.

I test my flat base bullets 100 or 200 yards and my boatails at 300 yards. That way I know they've "gone to sleep" before they get to the target.

I don't stress TOO much about velocity spread unless it's one of my longrange guns. When a bullet gets to ,say, 1000 yards it's coming in at more of a downward angle and slower than at 100 yards. So....not only will you hit lower but you'll also hit closer. (Does that make sense?) With my Edge and my wife's 6.5x284 I graphite my neck and strictly control my neck tension. At 100-200 it doesn't make that much difference.

Anyway, I use the Audette Ladder and Dan Newberry's Optimum Charge Weight equally. I've used the OCW method successfully with both charge and OAL for about 15 years. Dan's premise is to try to time the bullet's exit to when barrel flop is at the apex of it's vibration. I can buy that.
Good post Bob L.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I'll look at the charge spread in a given manual and start a couple grains above the minimum charge weight. I'll load 3 rounds in increments of .5 to 1 grains (depending on the cartridge) and do this til I approach a max charge. When I'm getting closer to max charges, I'll drop the increment to .3 grains or so. With this method, I end up with about 20 rounds or so to test.

I'll keep the seating depth consistent somewhere about .01-.02 off the lands for the initial go around. I'll head to the range, and take plenty of time between each shot (I'll actually bring a few rifles with me and rotate through them to give plenty of cool down time).

After I've found the charge that performs best, I'll go back and adjust the seating depth closer or further from the lands and again see what groups best.

It's a method that's worked out well for me so far, so I'll probably continue to do so. I'd like to try doing this at 200 or 300 yards sometime.

This was when I was working up a load for my 7RM with a 162 Amax and RL-22. I was getting ok groups, but I expected a lot more from the Sendero rifle. The 3rd and 6th charges gave the best comparison. Once I saw #6, I knew I was in the right spot finally. A little more fine tuning with seating depth gave me a great load.







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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

waspocrew said:


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You missed that dime! :mrgreen: Good shooting waspocrew.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Longbow - I always seem to miss the quarters and dimes! ;-)


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Hey Wasp, off topic for a second, but have you killed any animals with the AMax bullets?-----SS


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

DallanC said:


> +1
> We should have a thread on what different people feel is acceptable accuracy for their reloads. There are people who will never be satisfied with any group larger than the size of their bullet... and people who just want it to go bang and leave a hole in a pie plate.
> -DallanC


A hunting weight rifle with a hunting weight trigger that does around 1 MOA tickles me to death.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Cooky said:


> A hunting weight rifle with a hunting weight trigger that does around 1 MOA tickles me to death.


Me too 

-DallanC


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Springville Shooter said:


> Hey Wasp, off topic for a second, but have you killed any animals with the AMax bullets?-----SS


I haven't personally taken a big game animal with the Amax, but my wife shot her first buck with the 162 Amax out of my 7RM. The buck was roughly 80 yards away and she put it right behind the shoulder. The buck basically did a back flip at the shot and that was it! I was a little concerned about it being too close of a shot for the Amax, but it performed well in the boiler room. Heart and lungs were mush. Oh yeah, and she was 6 months pregnant! 
She and my brother in law:








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The year before, I watched my father in law place a 168 Amax from his .308 into the boiler room of a buck from just a tad over 200 yards. Same result - dead right there. Watching the buck drop in my binos was pretty neat. He was pretty stoked to get his first buck!








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Here are a couple of unlucky rock chucks that came out after I had figured my drop. A few yards shy of 350 was my personal best last season on these two:







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For deer sized game, I think the Amax is a great bullet! Just put it in the right spot and it'll do the trick.


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/

This guy is a big fan of the Amax for long range hunting.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Great pics Wasp and thanks for the link runner. All good info. I guess I won't hijack this poor thread anymore. It's been a good one.-----SS


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

Cool pics, hijack away.


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

For my purposes, in my .243, which is the only rifle I reload for at the moment, or did until I move somewhere they'll let me keep gun powder again, I began by finding the best head spacing using a minimum charge, followed by gradual changes in powder. 100 grain sierra pro hunters did their best at 2700fps w/ imr4064, but I bumped it up to about 2850 and I'm still typically at 1 inch groups if not a little under with my ability as a marksman. I'm about as close to the lands as I could physically get without touching them. 

With 90 e-tips, which according to the manual require a faster rate of twist than I have under certain conditions, once I got them going fast enough they began grouping. I don't remember if they're 1/10 of an inch or 1/100 of an inch, but they did their best substantially away from the lands. I know that on good days I can get about .75 inch groups if not smaller. 

By some divine fluke, the point of impact of the two different bullets is so close that I can realistically shoot them interchangeably 

I would play with different brass and primers, but that would require me almost reworking the entire load, and I simply don't have the time or money for something like that. It's a cheap, mossberg budget rifle with a "decent" trigger and glass that costs as much as the gun did. The fact that I'm shooting the way I am is a god send within itself.


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

Well an update on my 260ai, i don't think it likes 140's with this 9 twist. I have heard it is hit and miss some will shoot them some won't. I am not being able to duplicate a load at 300 yards with the chosen seating depths that shot well last range time. I am going to try 2 things, switch the primer in case its erratic ignition and try some lighter bullets. I am annoyed. I have a bunch of 125 partitions I may try.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Bob L. said:


> Well an update on my 260ai, i don't think it likes 140's with this 9 twist. I have heard it is hit and miss some will shoot them some won't. I am not being able to duplicate a load at 300 yards with the chosen seating depths that shot well last range time. I am going to try 2 things, switch the primer in case its erratic ignition and try some lighter bullets. I am annoyed. I have a bunch of 125 partitions I may try.


Any reason why you went with the 1:9 twist over the 1:8?


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

waspocrew said:


> Any reason why you went with the 1:9 twist over the 1:8?


The 9 twist was a really good buy at the time.

Any 6.5 I ever build again will be an 8 or 8.5 fo sho


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