# Posting state and federal land.



## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

I took my kids and grandkids camping this weekend up by Mantua. I had a spot in mind below the archery range. I had asked a couple locals about the spot and they said it was USA property. So this weekend we set up the wagon circle, built a fire and sat around while the grandkids drove the four wheelers around. I saw two men and a boy with a cordless drill mounting a sign on the tree in front of our campsite. I jumped on my wheeler to go see what they were up to. It was a no trespassing sign. They informed me that we were trespassing on their land. I ask them where the line was and they said it's pretty sketchy but he was sure we were on their property. Who doesn't know exactly where their land boundaries are? Now I'm suspicious. So I start asking a lot of question and they knew I was on to them. One of them said he was a cop and ex-military so I started to ask questions about his military past. He hem-hawed but never answered my questions directly. If you haven't been in the military you can't talk shop about the military. (Can you say "stolen valor"? It's a crime!)
Honestly, we all stayed calm and polite, but I didn't know for sure about the land ownership so I couldn't argue with any kind of authority.
If anyone knows me, they know that once I lock onto something I go 110%. Today I went to the courthouse and checked the platt maps. Sure enough, it's USA land...by a long shot! How do I deal with this? I'm going camping there again because it's a nice camping spot that gets very little use/competition. I need to be prepared in case the Fuzz shows up. Keep in mind that I will not fight with anyone but I won't back down when I know I'm absolutely right. What's the fine for illegally posting federal land? Any thoughts about what documents I need on hand when I go camping again? Any other advise?


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I would just take a copy of the platt map with you and go for it. I'm not too sure about any consequences for posting federal land, other than maybe littering or defacing government property.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Make sure you are on public land, then call the sheriff next time... its illegal to post property that is not yours. They will get the ticket.


-DallanC


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Make sure you are on public land, then call the sheriff next time... its illegal to post property that is not yours. They will get the ticket.
> 
> -DallanC


After talking to the lady at the court house, I'm sure it's federal land.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Get in touch of which ever government body owns it. BLM or Forest Service and tell them what happened, then they will investigate it. If you have it give them the GPS coordinates for where you were. 

I have had to do it a couple of times and always liked the outcome.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

if they are screw sings to trees it a nice ticket and can be spending some time in Jail. my mom and dad got a warring for hanging sings on trees for us kids to find them one year camping.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Here's the GPS of our campsite according to Google Earth - N 4593414.90, E 420799.96. If you guys go to www.boxeldercounty.org , click on Recorder, click on Webmap and zoom in on the coordinates you'll see the parcel. The "landowners" live in the little round section south of this parcel. Somehow the lady at the recorder's office overlaid the land ownership in red on the map. I can't figure out how she did it. Any geeks out there that can help me?


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## Kingfisher (Jul 25, 2008)

absolutely for sure contact the forest service and let them know someone has been 'posting' public property, have them double check the ownership, they will do it almost immediately if not while you are still on the phone, have them take down the signs.


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## lifeisgood (Aug 31, 2010)

If the rancher leases land from the BLM or Forest Service (grazing) could they post it no trespassing even if it is public? Just wondering if this could be the case.


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## Afishnado (Sep 18, 2007)

longbow said:


> (Can you say "stolen valor"? It's a crime!)


The Supreme Court struck that down on the grounds of freedom of speech or something like that. 
I'm pretty sure that if you get the GPS coordinates there's a website that shows the Forest Service boundries


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Afishnado said:


> The Supreme Court struck that down on the grounds of freedom of speech or something like that.
> I'm pretty sure that if you get the GPS coordinates there's a website that shows the Forest Service boundries


I listed the website above. I just can't figure out how to overlay the boundaries on the map. I copied the platt map but it lacks in detail.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

lifeisgood said:


> If the rancher leases land from the BLM or Forest Service (grazing) could they post it no trespassing even if it is public? Just wondering if this could be the case.


No! He is allowed to fence it to keep domestic animals in, but it remains public land and can't be posted. And he can't fence it to keep people or wild animals out. FWIW, I know of a situation like the one which started the thread, but I decided to just leave the sign up so that I could hunt it without competition. (Of course I carry the plat map in case a CO or local sheriff tries to site me.) :grin:


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Good to hear that others have had success in busting this practice. As busy as most CO's are, I don't see the issue getting too much attention, but I sure hope that it does. I am not able to make sense of the coordinates that you have posted, otherwise, I am on the site that you listed trying to figure it out.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I know of several cases where people with BLM grazing permits posted the land. They took the signs down after they were challenged by the county Sheriff.


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## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

What about Public Trust Lands? Why can't I fish the White River, along Hwy 6? There's trust land right there, but "No Trespassing" signs all over the fences.

Our public fish have even been stocked in it.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> Good to hear that others have had success in busting this practice. As busy as most CO's are, I don't see the issue getting too much attention, but I sure hope that it does. I am not able to make sense of the coordinates that you have posted, otherwise, I am on the site that you listed trying to figure it out.


The coordinates are UTM (Universal Transverse Mercator) coordinates which are in meters. This system divides the Earth in zones from pole to pole and the equator from north to south. We're in zone 12 and the coordinates are 420799mE (east of zone 11) and 4593415mN (north of the equator). That roughly translates to 41*29'19"N 111*56'55"W in GPS. In other words, he camped at the southwest corner of the intersection of South Park Dr and Girls Home Rd. Whether that's private or Nat'l Forest, I couldn't say, but he's correct in saying there's a house and what appears to be a barnyard about 120 yards south on the same side of the road, so I doubt he's in USA property (as he puts it) by a long shot. Maybe barely!!! In fact, it may be within city limits. I'll check it out sometime tomorrow.


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## nocturnalenemy (Jun 26, 2011)

LOAH said:


> What about Public Trust Lands? Why can't I fish the White River, along Hwy 6? There's trust land right there, but "No Trespassing" signs all over the fences.
> 
> Our public fish have even been stocked in it.


LOAH, I've had this same question for a while (concerning the same stretch of river, actually). This is what I found, but I have no idea how to interpret it. Maybe someone can help us? I've read through the "Rights of Entry" and "Easements" sections, but haven't found anything yet about public access.

http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r850/r850.htm


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## nocturnalenemy (Jun 26, 2011)

nocturnalenemy said:


> LOAH, I've had this same question for a while (concerning the same stretch of river, actually). This is what I found, but I have no idea how to interpret it. Maybe someone can help us? I've read through the "Rights of Entry" and "Easements" sections, but haven't found anything yet about public access.
> 
> http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r850/r850.htm


Best I can find for now:

"R850-50-1300. Rights Reserved to the Agency.
In all grazing permits the agency shall expressly reserve the right to:
4. allow the public the right to use the trust land for purposes and periods of time permitted by policy and rules. However, nothing in these rules purports to authorize trespass on private land to reach trust land."

I'll have to read more at a later time.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

LOAH said:


> What about Public Trust Lands? Why can't I fish the White River, along Hwy 6? There's trust land right there, but "No Trespassing" signs all over the fences.
> Our public fish have even been stocked in it.


SITLA lands are not public lands. They are viewed as private lands and as such, SITLA may impose their rules of use as they desire. SITLA does sell lands, usually once or twice a year. So it is important to know if the SITLA parcel you want to access is still owned by SITLA.

The UDWR leases the SITLA lands for hunting and fishing by UDWR license holders. We (the UDWR) pay around $600,000 per year to lease those lands for hunting and fishing uses.

You could contact the SITLA office and inquire if that parcel is still owned by SITLA. I wouldn't hesitate to fish it if the parcel is still SITLA.


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## nocturnalenemy (Jun 26, 2011)

Packout said:


> SITLA lands are not public lands. They are viewed as private lands and as such, SITLA may impose their rules of use as they desire. SITLA does sell lands, usually once or twice a year. So it is important to know if the SITLA parcel you want to access is still owned by SITLA.
> 
> The UDWR leases the SITLA lands for hunting and fishing by UDWR license holders. We (the UDWR) pay around $600,000 per year to lease those lands for hunting and fishing uses.
> 
> You could contact the SITLA office and inquire if that parcel is still owned by SITLA. I wouldn't hesitate to fish it if the parcel is still SITLA.


The SITLA GIS map shows that section of land is leased out under a grazing permit. Does that change our access rights (assuming it is still SITLA owned)?


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I went to the county web site and did a parcel search. The parcel north of Girls Home road running east and west is 03-059-0018 and the parcel south of the road is 03-060-0015, the county web site says that both of those parcels are owned by United States of America, it doesn't say which entity such as BLM or USFS but you could go to either of those offices and they could tell you. The parcels cover both sides of South Park Drive.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> The coordinates are UTM (Universal Transverse Mercator) coordinates which are in meters. This system divides the Earth in zones from pole to pole and the equator from north to south. We're in zone 12 and the coordinates are 420799mE (east of zone 11) and 4593415mN (north of the equator). That roughly translates to 41*29'19"N 111*56'55"W in GPS. In other words, he camped at the southwest corner of the intersection of South Park Dr and Girls Home Rd. Whether that's private or Nat'l Forest, I couldn't say, but he's correct in saying there's a house and what appears to be a barnyard about 120 yards south on the same side of the road, so I doubt he's in USA property (as he puts it) by a long shot. Maybe barely!!! In fact, it may be within city limits. I'll check it out sometime tomorrow.


Here's the platt map. The blue line is the road that turns up to the girl's camp. The pink line is the Mantua city line. The brown X is where we were camped. The two guys that posted the sign live in two of the lots to the south. I'm sure I was on USA land. I'll check to see which entity has control of it.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Yep, it looks to me like you were on parcel 03-060-0015, the county shows it is USA land, if the parcel overlays are correct on google earth it looks like the biggest house is right on the property line and partially built on government land but I am sure the parcel lines are not exact on that site.


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

Packout said:


> SITLA lands are not public lands. They are viewed as private lands and as such, SITLA may impose their rules of use as they desire. SITLA does sell lands, usually once or twice a year. So it is important to know if the SITLA parcel you want to access is still owned by SITLA.
> 
> The UDWR leases the SITLA lands for hunting and fishing by UDWR license holders. We (the UDWR) pay around $600,000 per year to lease those lands for hunting and fishing uses.
> 
> You could contact the SITLA office and inquire if that parcel is still owned by SITLA. I wouldn't hesitate to fish it if the parcel is still SITLA.


Ain't that the truth... There is a PRIME piece of ground in Box Elder county that is a SITLA parcel.. Some of the best hunting you could imagine... The guy who has the agriculture lease on it has all inherited property rights to it. Even though us as hunters pay for rights to SITLA for hunting fishing and trapping.. He still has the right to keep us off...... Bugs the heck out of me he can run cattle on it and do what he wants for 1k lease cost. Then throws a fit if some one touches the place. A few more years and this lease comes up for review.... You can bet it will be challenged..........he can hunt it and we can't....ugh


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

stuckduck said:


> Ain't that the truth... There is a PRIME piece of ground in Box Elder county that is a SITLA parcel.. Some of the best hunting you could imagine... The guy who has the agriculture lease on it has all inherited property rights to it. Even though us as hunters pay for rights to SITLA for hunting fishing and trapping.. He still has the right to keep us off...... Bugs the heck out of me he can run cattle on it and do what he wants for 1k lease cost. Then throws a fit if some one touches the place. A few more years and this lease comes up for review.... You can bet it will be challenged..........he can hunt it and we can't....ugh


lol, I know excatly who and where you are talking about. 
smh 1K????? s**t, that wont even buy you a 40 acre agri lease down here. and you dont get hunting rights with those leases.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

longbow said:


> Here's the platt map. The blue line is the road that turns up to the girl's camp. The pink line is the Mantua city line. The brown X is where we were camped. The two guys that posted the sign live in two of the lots to the south. I'm sure I was on USA land. I'll check to see which entity has control of it.


You were on National Forest property! The two guys posting the sign were doing it illegally. Whether or not you want to report them is up to you, but regardless of what they tell you, they have no case. Were they there when you came in or did they show up later? In either case, they were trying to scare you (and others) into leaving.

Keep in mind, however, that the Forest Service may only allow camping in designated camp sites and they do have the authoriity to ask you to leave. And if you try to report the two guys, it may backfire on you in one of two ways. Either the Forest Service will tell you that you can't camp there per their policy or the two guys could report you for some local noise, fire, disturbance ordinance. I know local landowners down here in Iron County can get nasty if they don't like what you're doing even near their property.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Are you or anyone insinuating that you cant hunt the SITLA ground because this yaehoo has leased the grazing rights? It was my understanding that permit holders can hunt all SITLA grounds so long as you access it legally from a public road. Maybe I misunderstood something.


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