# Bison - We almost killed them all.



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Scientists say there were at one time 30 million bison in North America. By 1889 less than 900 were left:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

That is pretty insane! Us human-folk can be a destructive bunch when we want to be...


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I thought as well that "survivors" were bred with cattle at times and the pure genetic strain of Bison was lost, what we have now is a mix-breed. Read that somewhere last year about the bison recovery.


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

From what I have read the Yellowstone and Utah's Henry Mountain herds are the only genetic pure herds left in the US. All the rest have some moo cow in them.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Critter said:


> From what I have read the Yellowstone and Utah's Henry Mountain herds are the only genetic pure herds left in the US. All the rest have some moo cow in them.


I have read this as well.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Critter said:


> From what I have read the Yellowstone and Utah's Henry Mountain herds are the only genetic pure herds left in the US. All the rest have some moo cow in them.


Yep...there is also another remnant, pure strain up in Canada. They're in "Woods National Park" or something like that. I watched a Shockey episode for a hunt for one a couple years back.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Yes, Yellowstone And Canadian bison were the remnant gene reservoir, of genetically pure bison. In 15-20 years the Yellowstone herd will be genetically unviable. Between the restriction of movement outside of the park. And the rapid genetic degradation and mutation that they are currently experiencing, it is just a matter of time.

We killed off most of the elk at one point in Utah also. Most of the elk we have came from YNP transplants from the 1930s.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

The passenger pigeon is even more depressing. Flocks would darken the skies for hours and now they're all gone. At least we were able to find some herds and start making progress on saving the Bison. I know there are now Bison ranches all over the US. As a kid growing up in Louisiana there was a guy less than a mile from my house that was raising Bison.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Lonetree said:


> Yes, Yellowstone And Canadian bison were the remnant gene reservoir, of genetically pure bison. In 15-20 years the Yellowstone herd will be genetically unviable. Between the restriction of movement outside of the park. And the rapid genetic degradation and mutation that they are currently experiencing, it is just a matter of time.
> 
> We killed off most of the elk at one point in Utah also. Most of the elk we have came from YNP transplants from the 1930s.


Time for some transplants between YNP and Canada?


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> The passenger pigeon is even more depressing. Flocks would darken the skies for hours and now they're all gone. At least we were able to find some herds and start making progress on saving the Bison. I know there are now Bison ranches all over the US. As a kid growing up in Louisiana there was a guy less than a mile from my house that was raising Bison.


Yep, 3 billion Passsenger Pigeons gone...that's billion, with a "b"


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

MWScott72 said:


> Time for some transplants between YNP and Canada?


Won't help, the bison in YNP are experiencing epigenetic driven reproductive malformations, that in the long term is degrading genetics. This is being driven by environmental factors, so bringing in more bison, would only forestall, the decline, unless said environmental factors are alleviated. Also, the Canadian bison, are not the same genetic strain as the YNP bison, so you would lose that also.

Moving animals around is not the answer to the vast majority of our wildlife problems. I know the UDWR would disagree, I mean with mule deer transplants being the savior of Western mule deer and all.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> Won't help, the bison in YNP are experiencing epigenetic driven reproductive malformations, that in the long term is degrading genetics. This is being driven by environmental factors, so bringing in more bison, would only forestall, the decline, unless said environmental factors are alleviated. Also, the Canadian bison, are not the same genetic strain as the YNP bison, so you would lose that also.
> 
> Moving animals around is not the answer to the vast majority of our wildlife problems. I know the UDWR would disagree, I mean with mule deer transplants being the savior of Western mule deer and all.


How exactly did bison make it from a few hundred in Yellowstone to several thousand today without genetic problems? 120 years after near extinction suddenly this becomes a problem?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> How exactly did bison make it from a few hundred in Yellowstone to several thousand today without genetic problems? 120 years after near extinction suddenly this becomes a problem?


Epigenetic expression is driven by environmental factors. So the environmental factors drive epigenetic expression, which in turn can become longer term genetic mutation, if the environmental factors persist. These environmental factors are contemporary to the last 30 years.

These are congenital reproductive malformations, that tend to affect male animals. In several species of animals in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem, over half the population at times have been afflicted. I have witnessed the same malformations in mule deer here in Utah.

When it only affects a few animals, the species as a whole does not suffer. And if the affects are extreme, or severe, the young quickly die, and as long as the external agent is removed, the species as a whole will rebound. This is the kind of thing we witnessed with large scale wildlife declines in the early '80s. Sharp quick decline, with a relatively quick rebound.

But if the environmental factors, driving epigenetic expression, continue for long periods of time, generations, but is at levels that do not kill off the species, but rather hold its numbers at bay, then you are setting yourself up for larger declines. The longer the epigenetic expression is triggered, the more likely the effects are to get written into the permanent genes of the species. So then even with a removal, of an agent or condition, that is driving the epigenetic expression, the problem persists. So with the addition of another agent that works on that same expression, or with very adverse conditions, you will see a decline or crash, where recovery is subpar, not existent, or impossible to achieve. An example of the subpar recoveries, would be what we witnessed with wildlife declines in the '90s. Sharp declines with a subpar recovery.

There is an elastic nature to how some of this works. These kinds of declines are many times punctuated, and preceded, with rebounds in the population, that can not fully spring past, or even back to a mean, because of the semi permanent drag that drove the decline. The population becomes predisposed to certain environmental triggers, which render them sensitive, for many generations. Without multigenerational recoveries, to "distance" the animals from the triggers, and "normalize" the life cycle, they will remain predisposed and sensitive to conditions that would other wise not affect their very existence.

"The genes load the gun, and the environment pulls the trigger"--JH


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

So these factors have existed for a few hundred thousand years but have just manifested themselves in the last 30 years......interesting. :shock:


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## Theekillerbee (Jan 8, 2009)

Lonetree, while I agree with some of what you are saying, I can't see this genetic expression ruining the entire herd. (Unless it is the gene that low life blood sucking lazy welfare junkies that love the take from haves and give to the have nots mentality have!!!!):shock: Importing/exporting males will have an effect, probably far greater that we can imagine. Many genetic mutations are unbelievably hard to predict. There are so many millions of genetic combinations that we sure can't tell when any one particular mutation will manifest itself. Yes, autosomal dominant genes carry some weight, but it are those recessive genes that can get you. Much harder to find and weed those ones out.

Just my 2 cents anyways. Heck, the stinking weather man has a tough time predicting what will happen in 2 days, and he has millions of dollars worth of "scientific" equipment at his disposal. I personally trust many of the old time sayings/sightings much more than the weather monkeys and their computers.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

LostLouisianian said:


> So these factors have existed for a few hundred thousand years but have just manifested themselves in the last 30 years......interesting. :shock:


In some cases, probably more like 165 million years. Marsupials are the oldest type of mammals, placental mammals split off from this line, 165 millions years ago. Placental mammals therefor share DNA, with marsupials.

During the masculinization of both mammals and marsupials, the testes descend from the upper abdomen. In Mammals the testes descend all the way through the body wall, and rest externally in the scrotum. In marsupials, the testes do not descend very far at all, and remain under the body wall, approximately where the human belly button is.

This descent and physical morphology, is driven by genetic expression, specifically the action of the sonic hedgehog gene, prior to the actual morphology. This early window of gene expression can be disrupted through various means. Once the genes have been read, and the program set, the morphology follows the laid out course, that has been dictated by the genes. If the genes have been disrupted, or acted upon by external environmental factors(epigenetics), then the programing of the morphology can be altered. An example would be long repressed genes, that placental mammals share with marsupials, may get written and copied, instead of the appropriate, and normal placental mammal genes.

This kind of thing happens all the time, naturally, for many reasons. Such occurrence are not prevalent, and even rare, with wide ranges of expression. If you have environmental factors that are influencing genes, and driving higher rates or mutations, specifically repeated mutations, then you have an epigenetic problem. Which is environmental factors, driving epigenetic expression.

The environmental conditions driving said epigenetic expression, are contemporary to the last 30 years, not the genes.

But then again you knew all of that, seeing as how you have a degree in wildlife biology, and forestry.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Theekillerbee said:


> Lonetree, while I agree with some of what you are saying, I can't see this genetic expression ruining the entire herd. (Unless it is the gene that low life blood sucking lazy welfare junkies that love the take from haves and give to the have nots mentality have!!!!):shock: Importing/exporting males will have an effect, probably far greater that we can imagine. Many genetic mutations are unbelievably hard to predict. There are so many millions of genetic combinations that we sure can't tell when any one particular mutation will manifest itself. Yes, autosomal dominant genes carry some weight, but it are those recessive genes that can get you. Much harder to find and weed those ones out.
> 
> Just my 2 cents anyways. Heck, the stinking weather man has a tough time predicting what will happen in 2 days, and he has millions of dollars worth of "scientific" equipment at his disposal. I personally trust many of the old time sayings/sightings much more than the weather monkeys and their computers.


We are not talking about random mutation. And recessive genes would only play a small part. In this particular case we are specifically not talking about the autosomes, but specifically the expression and influence on and of the sex chromosomes.

We are talking specifically about external environmental factors, affecting genetic expression, via epigenetics. These mutations are congenital, repeated, and specific. There is no need for computers or predictions, it is contemporary in its presence, it exists, predicting its expression is easy, it is already happening. This is verified by good old fashion field work, and observations, no computers required.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

What specific mutations are you speaking of? I grew up in Cody and literally have thousands of pictures of the bison herd that span the last thirty years. I can get thousands more from a friend of mine that makes part of his living photographing Yellowstone and it's wildlife.

This has to be a published study or a physically visible mutation right? Or are these top secret mutations? Ones that are only known by the Rocky Mountain I****younot Wildlife Superfriend Alliance?


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Lonetree, I see you have been reading about mutations and have lifted several explanations right out of a biology text. Great!


However, I would like to see your source information that the Yellowstone bison, along with the rest of the herds are suffering such a problem. Preferably from a peer reviewed scientific journal.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Catherder said:


> However, I would like to see your source information that the Yellowstone bison, along with the rest of the herds are suffering such a problem. Preferably from a peer reviewed scientific journal.


Wait, wait, wait. Stop right there. Since when does anyone on Utah Wildlife Network care ANYTHING about peer reviewed scientific journals??

Look -- find me something from Wikipedia, Outdoor Life, or Trout Unlimited. Forget that peer reviewed crap!


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## Kingfisher (Jul 25, 2008)

lets not forget in this conversation that the numbers of bison fluctuated greatly over time and various periods. the reason there were so many in the golden age of trapping was very likely due to the huge decline in hunting pressure brought to bear by the near extirpation of native americans due to small pox. remove the biggest predator, population explodes. recall the lewis and clark journals and the cataloged number of animals both seen and killed on a daily basis - there were not gazillions of bison at that time - and those boyz covered a fair amount of territory, both going and on the return.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Kingfisher said:


> ...recall the lewis and clark journals and the cataloged number of animals both seen and killed on a daily basis - _there were not gazillions of bison at that time_ - and those boyz covered a fair amount of territory, both going and on the return.


yes there were. Lewis and Clark both commented that bison herds ("buffalow") stretched as far as the eye could see. They described herds of bison "so numerous that they darkened the whole plains".

You are correct that the bison population was in decline when the Corps of Discovery set out from St. Louis in 1804 -- but there WERE still huge herds of buffalo roaming west of the Mississippi.



Meriwether Lewis; April 22 said:


> asscended to the top of the cutt bluff this morning, from whence I had a most delightfull view of the country, the whole of which except the vally formed by the Missouri is void of timber or underbrush, exposing to the first glance of the spectator immence herds of Buffaloe, Elk, deer, & Antelopes feeding in one common and boundless pasture. we saw a number of bever feeding on the bark of the trees alonge the verge of the river, several of which we shot, found them large and fat. walking on shore this evening I met with a buffaloe calf which attatched itself to me and continued to follow close at my heels untill I embarked and left it. it appeared allarmed at my dog which was probably the cause of it's so readily attatching itself to me...


In August of 1806, on the return trip in South Dakota, Lewis commented on the largest herd of bison he had yet seen:


Lewis; August 1806 said:


> I must have Seen near 20,000 of those animals feeding on this plain.


The Corps of Discovery killed 227 bison during their journey.

Sadly, it took only about 70 years from that time for the bison herds of North America to dwindle, and nearly become extinct.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

sad is true..........to an extent. What would the world be like right now with those massive herds of bison running around? I love bison as much as the next guy but I also love the supply of flour, beets, corn, wheat, barley, beef, pigs, soybeans, beans, melons, tomatoes, potatoes, sheep, oil, gas, etc. etc. etc.

Fact is the bison occupied what is probably the most important resource providing piece of land in the entire world. Mankind would not be what it is with the bison occupying that land today or even a quarter of it.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> What specific mutations are you speaking of? I grew up in Cody and literally have thousands of pictures of the bison herd that span the last thirty years. I can get thousands more from a friend of mine that makes part of his living photographing Yellowstone and it's wildlife.
> 
> This has to be a published study or a physically visible mutation right? Or are these top secret mutations? Ones that are only known by the Rocky Mountain I****younot Wildlife Superfriend Alliance?


Your in luck then. In the next couple of weeks, there will chances to win some outdoor gear, in multiple draws. What does it take to enter you ask? Money, political favors, purchase of memberships? Nope, none of the above. We will be accepting photos and locations of specific wildlife malformations, from across the West. Each submission gets you into the drawing.

Here are a few of the items that will be available.
http://titaniumgoat.com/vertex7_5.html
http://titaniumgoat.com/stove-WiFi.html
http://www.klymit.com/index.php/products-1/backpacks/litewater-dinghy-lwd.html
Oh, I forgot to talk about the malformations.........


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Kingfisher said:


> lets not forget in this conversation that the numbers of bison fluctuated greatly over time and various periods. the reason there were so many in the golden age of trapping was very likely due to the huge decline in hunting pressure brought to bear by the near extirpation of native americans due to small pox. remove the biggest predator, population explodes. recall the lewis and clark journals and the cataloged number of animals both seen and killed on a daily basis - there were not gazillions of bison at that time - and those boyz covered a fair amount of territory, both going and on the return.


You have to take into account the time of year, and location, when looking at historical sightings. Bison were migratory, you could travel hundreds of miles and not see one. They were in higher mountain valleys, in the summer months. aboriginal buffalo jumps show there were millions of bison, for the last 15,000 years. They fluctuated, but there were still millions.

The same archeology also demonstrates, through rates of utilization, that bighorn sheep, and mule deer were very plentiful for the same time period, despite what we read in WAFWA pamphlets.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Catherder said:


> Lonetree, I see you have been reading about mutations and have lifted several explanations right out of a biology text. Great!
> 
> However, I would like to see your source information that the Yellowstone bison, along with the rest of the herds are suffering such a problem. Preferably from a peer reviewed scientific journal.


My specific sources, for bison, are currently unpublished. But there is peer reviewed work for other species.

Oh, and no cancer cells in any of the animals necropsied, so you were wrong. If you want to do some cutting you are welcome to tag along. Bring your Vicks, and double glove, there is no lab, or freezers.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Lewis and Clark used air rifles on the Corps of Discovery. I have a WY bison tag, but I'm not allowed to use an air rifle. What a crock!


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Lonetree said:


> Your in luck then. In the next couple of weeks, there will chances to win some outdoor gear, in multiple draws. What does it take to enter you ask? Money, political favors, purchase of memberships? Nope, none of the above. We will be accepting photos and locations of specific wildlife malformations, from across the West. Each submission gets you into the drawing.
> 
> Here are a few of the items that will be available.
> http://titaniumgoat.com/vertex7_5.html
> ...


Who is "we"?

Give me some specifics on the malformations that you seek. Of the thousands of photos of Yellowstone Bison that I have the only real things that jumps out at me is that they look like...........hmmm..........how do I say this...........well...........they actually look like bison.

In fact I would challenge anybody to note any distinguishable difference between those I photographed in 1980 versus those that I photographed last year or in the many years in between. Some big. Some small. Some darker. Some lighter. All have lots of hair, 4 hooves, 1 snout, 2 ears, 2 eyes (I have heard that there are some 1-eyes running around though), the same basic shape and a look on their face that says "look at me, I am bison"


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Sheesh Goob,look what you started:shock:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Dunkem said:


> Sheesh Goob,look what you started:shock:


I'm such a dumb ass.

Listen fellas, a reminder: This is the UWN. Don't let the truth (fact based on scientific proof) ruin a good story.

.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> Lewis and Clark used air rifles on the Corps of Discovery. I have a WY bison tag, but I'm not allowed to use an air rifle. What a crock!


Congrats on the tag! I want photos.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Who is "we"?
> 
> Give me some specifics on the malformations that you seek. Of the thousands of photos of Yellowstone Bison that I have the only real things that jumps out at me is that they look like...........hmmm..........how do I say this...........well...........they actually look like bison.
> 
> In fact I would challenge anybody to note any distinguishable difference between those I photographed in 1980 versus those that I photographed last year or in the many years in between. Some big. Some small. Some darker. Some lighter. All have lots of hair, 4 hooves, 1 snout, 2 ears, 2 eyes (I have heard that there are some 1-eyes running around though), the same basic shape and a look on their face that says "look at me, I am bison"


Details, details, since when did anyone here on the UWN, actually care about details, let alone whether or not they had any bearing on the real physical world we live in. Fact, fiction, gray area, all that matters is how our inner little girl _feels_ about any particular issue.

Am I making this hard enough? I once read some text that said adversity built character, or something like that. I can't remember, I make this stuff up as I go.

Is anyone here good with Photoshop?


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> My specific sources, for bison, are currently unpublished. But there is peer reviewed work for other species.
> 
> Oh, and no cancer cells in any of the animals necropsied, so you were wrong. If you want to do some cutting you are welcome to tag along. Bring your Vicks, and double glove, there is no lab, or freezers.


As I figured.

I would love to tag along. I also will wait for peer reviewed material to review before I consider myself "wrong" in any previous discussion. In the species I work with, I'm correct.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)




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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Details, details, since when did anyone here on the UWN, actually care about details, let alone whether or not they had any bearing on the real physical world we live in. Fact, fiction, gray area, all that matters is how our inner little girl _feels_ about any particular issue.
> 
> Am I making this hard enough? I once read some text that said adversity built character, or something like that. I can't remember, I make this stuff up as I go.
> 
> Is anyone here good with Photoshop?


I am good with Photoshop. I had extensive Photoshop training at the *Moderator Academy* just in case there was an argument between grown men over the declining populations of American Bison.

.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


>


Thanks Gary, all I really want is the tongue and some liver.

Just kiddin. If I get a bison, sorry Bison/Angus hybrid, I'm gonna use the gutless method so I won't have so much to haul back to the road.

.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)




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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


>


Hey what's greasier than a Raccoon?

answer: McDonalds french fries!!

.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Lonetree said:


> Details, details, since when did anyone here on the UWN, actually care about details, let alone whether or not they had any bearing on the real physical world we live in. Fact, fiction, gray area, all that matters is how our inner little girl _feels_ about any particular issue.
> 
> Am I making this hard enough? I once read some text that said adversity built character, or something like that. I can't remember, I make this stuff up as I go.
> 
> Is anyone here good with Photoshop?


I am pretty good with it. Aperture as well. What you really need though is a printer so you can claim..........

"Yep it's published".

Then............

Peer Reviewed? "Yep, guys read it all of the time"

Do you have a degree? "Nope. Taught myself."

Well that is a bit unconventional don't you think? "Yep. Had to change the paradigm."

In a thousand words or less can you be more specific? "Don't know. Never tried it."

Aren't you afraid of losing interest amongst your peers? " Nope. Not here to make friends. Just want to enlighten people on their ignorance"

You don't seem to appreciate questions..."If people don't recognize my word as the absolute authority on the matter they should be questioning themselves. Not me. I have argued with the best of them."


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

OK, Wikipedia claims that around 6% of bison may have moo cow DNA. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovid_hybrid
_
"The Yellowstone Park Herd, the Henry's Mountains Bison Herd, the Elk Island Plains Bison Herd in Canada, and the Wind Cave Bison Herd are believed to be pure."_ says the article.

But then again, never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.


dangit, hard to get to the top of the page on this one


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Hey *GaryFish,* if we play the brucellosis card this thing could go 15 pages.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

GaryFish said:


>


 I digress......that is a true mutation. Next thing you know a microbrew will be spilling out of it's side.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> OK, Wikipedia claims that around 6% of bison may have moo cow DNA. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovid_hybrid
> 
> _"The Yellowstone Park Herd, the Henry's Mountains Bison Herd, the Elk Island Plains Bison Herd in Canada, and the Wind Cave Bison Herd are believed to be pure."_ says the article.
> 
> ...


Good to know, thanks!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

And with that, you nailed Top of Page.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Catherder said:


> As I figured.
> 
> I would love to tag along. I also will wait for peer reviewed material to review before I consider myself "wrong" in any previous discussion. In the species I work with, I'm correct.


In the species you work with, the conditions that lead to cryptorchidism, create a higher risk of testicular cancer. The cancer does not lead to the cryptorchidism. And regardless of species, its path to physical morphology, is the same. Even if the underlying trigger is different.

In thousands of necropsies, of deer and other animals, there were no cancer cells. This very probably because of the epigenetic nature, that is influencing this. Cryptorchidism, and 20 other malformations, have been definitely shown to be epigenetically inducible, in mammals. Anything seen at high rates, for long periods of time, has to be environmentally influenced, verses random selection, at low rates, that is natural variation of mutation.

This happens about midway through gestation, it is congenital.

there will be opportunities, and incentive, to look into this yourself.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> And with that, you nailed Top of Page.


Whoa, a guy'd think with a tongue like that the bison population would explode.

uh.........I'm thinking that one would do 3 1/2 pints of pickled tongue if you added some onion slices.

.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

You would think, but bison actually exhibit a lot of homosexual behavior. That is not a social statement, but rather a scientific observation. Kind of like the observations, of prime mule deer, that do not respond to does in estrus.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Well its no wonder they went almost extinct


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Found the article I remembered from way back.

http://missoulian.com/news/local/sc...cle_e272c2b2-7df2-11e1-a97d-0019bb2963f4.html



> The governor said only 1 percent of bison in North America - about 4,500 - are genetically pure, and most - 3,000 - are in or from the Yellowstone herd.


Apparently as discussed here, this quote is incorrect.

/shrug

-DallanC


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Dunkem said:


> Well its no wonder they went almost extinct


No, :grin: but it could play into their ultimate demise. Such behavior does not appear ta have been recorded 100 years ago. Just like reproductive malformations, homosexual behavior can be chemically induced.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> No, :grin: but it could play into their ultimate demise. Such behavior does not appear ta have been recorded 100 years ago. Just like reproductive malformations, homosexual behavior can be chemically induced.


OK, don't just leave us hanging like that. Is this behavior due to Selenium? Arsenic from coal-fired power plants? Round-up?

Hey, is there any truth to the rumor you are writing a book called "Silent Summer"



top of the page.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> You would think, but bison actually exhibit a lot of homosexual behavior. That is not a social statement, but rather a scientific observation. Kind of like the observations, of prime mule deer, that do not respond to does in estrus.


I can hear the right wing haters rallying for extermination in Utah.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> OK, don't just leave us hanging like that. Is this behavior due to Selenium? Arsenic from coal-fired power plants? Round-up?
> 
> Hey, is there any truth to the rumor you are writing a book called "Silent Summer"
> 
> ...


Hanging?

Good title, I'll pass it along, I don't have the patience for writing books. Fortunately others do. If anyone had paid attention to the lessons of "Silent Spring" we would not be where we are, nor would there be a need for another book, that I don't have time to read.

The intro looks good, and the time frame looks like I wrote it. If the author completes it before they die, maybe we can learn something.

Back to estimating snail densities. Not a single frog, toad, or salamander, made counting them easy.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> I can hear the right wing haters rallying for extermination in Utah.


Yeah, they do seem to have that response, when seeing certain kinds of reflections. :grin:


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Found the article I remembered from way back.
> 
> http://missoulian.com/news/local/sc...cle_e272c2b2-7df2-11e1-a97d-0019bb2963f4.html
> 
> ...


Was that a peer reviewed scientific statement / article?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Speaking of incorrect, none peer reviewed information, I posted some right here. The bison have actually been displaying homosexual tendencies for hundreds of years. Psychologically, it appears to be bi-sexual behavior. It is some what prevalent in bovines in general. So what I posted was wrong, its not new. It also explains 5 other things better, because that was looking to be a bit of an outlier.

I think some legislative action, and the spending of a lot of tax dollars, is now in order. I propose an Amendment 4 proposition. I was willing to let it slide, when it looked like the behavior was artificially induced, but to learn that they are exercising free will with these displays of moral indecency, it must be stopped. Think about all of the children that can no longer freely move their eyes across the Yellowstone landscape, without the fear of seeing a wolf, or worse yet......

Anyway, back to my hijacking of this thread. So there are reproductive malformations.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Just the other day I overheard a couple of Jellystone bison having a conversation and one of them said "vice is nice, but incest is best". Perhaps that could be a reason for the supposed retardation of the Jellystone herd. But I tend to vote for some obscure trace element missing in their diet.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

LostLouisianian said:


> Just the other day I overheard a couple of Jellystone bison having a conversation and one of them said "vice is nice, but incest is best". Perhaps that could be a reason for the supposed retardation of the Jellystone herd. But I tend to vote for some obscure trace element missing in their diet.


It is funny that you should mention mineral deficiencies, because you would almost, sorta, but not really be right. Which is closer than usual for you. You should see if the University you attended has some of a prorated warrantee program. Should be pretty easy to get about a 90% refund if that is the case.

Retardation, and malformation are two very different things, see how easy that refund should be.

I'm guessing you were in the adjacent bath house when you overheard the conversation?


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Lonetree said:


> It is funny that you should mention mineral deficiencies, because you would almost, sorta, but not really be right. Which is closer than usual for you. You should see if the University you attended has some of a prorated warrantee program. Should be pretty easy to get about a 90% refund if that is the case.
> 
> Retardation, and malformation are two very different things, see how easy that refund should be.
> 
> I'm guessing you were in the adjacent bath house when you overheard the conversation?


:rotfl:-_O-

-|\\O-


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

This thread has gone on six pages, and nowhere are the "external environmental factors" explained that are causing epigenetic issues? In layman's terms, what are the "external environmental factors" causing the purported issues w/r/t bison?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

MWScott72 said:


> This thread has gone on six pages, and nowhere are the "external environmental factors" explained that are causing epigenetic issues? In layman's terms, what are the "external environmental factors" causing the purported issues w/r/t bison?


That's right, I was getting to that. Maybe we should start with the malformations themselves, that can be easily observed. Where as digging into the cause gets complicated, and there will be a bunch of yahoos that laugh and make light of it, because they don't understand it. Yeah, we'll start with the malformations themselves, and then we can explore further into the potential causes and time frames. That might need a separate thread. Maybe I should touch on that though, as a reference, so the images have a basis. Or maybe just post some pictures?

Hell, its been going on for 20 years, and it has been affecting a lot more than just bison. And everyone seems to think everything is good with the state of hunting and wildlife, so maybe this doesn't need to be brought up. I mean I am probably just wasting my time, we should just hunt elk while we can, and put in for all the new mountain goat hunts. The last 20 years haven't been so bad, lets just forget I said anything, and talk about something else.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

LT-I'm not trying to be confrontational, but you still didn't answer the question? I'm curious what these environmental factors are. Selenium deficiency, nutrient binding, acid rain, mercury-poisoning, etc.? I'm assuming that most of it is tied to some sort of human-induced action, but it's hard to pinpoint any sort of solution without knowing the base cause first.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

"but it's hard to pinpoint any sort of solution without knowing the base cause first"

Ain't that the truth.

Oh yeah, the malformations.....


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

So we don't know what the the environmental factors are that are causing the malformations? That's what I gather anyway.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

no MW. It's the mysterious malformations that we can't differentiate from the norm right now. Once we have found the affect we will then focus on the cause. I think that is how it works. Lonetree changes the rules of his duck, duck, goose game so frequently it is hard to tell.

I thought I saw a group of bison with cleft lips the other day to report but it turns out they were just tonguing their snouts in unison. I am not sure why they were doing this. At first I was certain that they were suffering from severe selenium deficiency but then I tried to lick my own nose and found it to be rather entertaining versus just standing there.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I grew up on da farm.

Bovines could be homosexual, retarded; hogs on the other hand were always heterosexual.



.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

My biggest concern is, does a genetically pure bison taste different on the grill than a moo-cow-tainted bison? Goob, should I use more Sweet Baby Rays sauce on the pure stain or the DNA polluted bison? 
P.S. Just tryin' to drag this thread in another direction.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

longbow said:


> My biggest concern is, does a genetically pure bison taste different on the grill than a moo-cow-tainted bison? Goob, should I use more Sweet Baby Rays sauce on the pure stain or the DNA polluted bison?
> P.S. Just tryin' to drag this thread in another direction.


I didn't know this thread had any direction.

.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

longbow said:


> My biggest concern is, does a genetically pure bison taste different on the grill than a moo-cow-tainted bison? Goob, should I use more Sweet Baby Rays sauce on the pure stain or the DNA polluted bison? .................


Got me. I've eaten (what I thought was) "wild" bison and farm-raised bison and they both tasted the same after I got done with them.

I didn't know bison hunting was so complicated.

uh....I make my own BBQ sauce, thanks.

.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

We know what happens to zoo animals, right? They die young. At least in a zoo, we can compensate somewhat with artificial insemination and keep a species alive. But it seems fairly obvious - we can't pen wild animals and expect them to thrive.

Yellowstone bison are penned for all intents and purposes (external factor). Their migration out of the park is limited, which is why the two herds in YNP are recognized by their separate annual migration routes.

Y'all probably caught the recent 



 out of Wyoming. What's surprising is that so many folks are surprised that mule deer migrate (when they can). All ungulates migrate, or at least, nature intended them to migrate. We've always known this.

One of the most ignorant statements ever made at a wildlife board meeting was read in the original motion to implement Opt #2. I forget the exact wording, but it was a directive to the DWR to establish units according to where deer are "born, live and die". Of course, migration wasn't mentioned directly in the deer management plan. A lot was said about habitat, though. I suppose it would've interfered with the highway fencing strategy.

I'm no scientist, so I don't know what LT is talking about. But without open migration, well... you can see what the biologists predict for YNP bison.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Let's reintroduce bison all over the place:

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/op...n-war?src=related&con=outbrain&obref=obinsite


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## timberbuck (May 19, 2010)

It was not hunting or the fur trade that killed the bison off but the introduction of domestic animals (primarily cattle) and the diseases they introduced onto the land.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

wyogoob said:


> Let's reintroduce bison all over the place:
> 
> http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/op...n-war?src=related&con=outbrain&obref=obinsite


We had a thread on here about that subject not long ago. Not surprisingly, we have the same debates here in Utah. Ranchers were not thrilled about the establishment of the Book Cliffs herd. While I think the Books herd will grow and be a nice addition, I don't expect there will be new introductions to other areas here in the present political climate.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

timberbuck said:


> It was not hunting or the fur trade that killed the bison off but the introduction of domestic animals (primarily cattle) and the diseases they introduced onto the land.


No, http://all-that-is-interesting.com/...ear-extinction-of-american-bison-in-the-1800s


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