# Loaded Fire Arm in vehicle



## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

I've heard a lot that it's now legal to have a loaded weapon in a vehicle, even concealed, without a concealed weapons permit. Is this true? Where can I find details on this?
Thanks.


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## Packbasket (Oct 29, 2009)

where did you hear that?

that's the place to start, where did they hear that or read it.

don't forget that "loaded" is a specific term to you and me and a different term to the lawyers, being 2 manual steps away from firing is unloaded to many states, but a loaded clip in a rifle with an empty chamber and the safety on is a pretty much a loaded rifle to most people, the guy with the ticket book most especially.

even with a CCW I can not carry a rifle with a round in the chamber in the truck, that hasn't changed that I've been informed so far.

and why would I other than road hunting?

I hate road hunting, the gutting of the road is bad enough but you can drop a transmission trying to drag a two lane out. :mrgreen: you cook an older road up and you even have to grind the gravy they are so tough.

Back before radial tires the roads were good eating, you could take a two track that had bias on it all season and still cut it with a fork, but them dang radials have ruined it now.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Yes it is true. It got changed in the spring. Its apart of the "castle" laws (ie: yoru home is your castle...). They changed it so your auto is an extension of your castle (as is a hotel room now etc).

My CCP class was taught by 2 of the state legistlators that pushed this change through. What I'd love to hear is if this extends to your ATV.

-DallanC


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

From what i understand it is now legal to carry in your vehicle. Wasnt there a law that was passed that went into effect last July that makes a vehicle a extension to your home, so it is legal to carry in your vehicle, loaded or not? I was always under that impression. but then again I have 2 buddys that were stopped in Heber during the muzzleloader hunt, they had their primers and powder in their gun, One got a ticket for it, the other had his CCW with him so he didnt get ticketed. I dont know what the law is, but I was pretty sure it had been changed to where it was legal.


Whoops, sorry somebody just posted. Ya the "Castle law" was what i was thinking


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## Packbasket (Oct 29, 2009)

hard to wear a 24" barrel scoped bolt action rifle in a shoulder holster ain't it? :shock:


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

Yes! You can carry a loaded firearm in your vehicle on your person or in a glove box. Barring the obvious exclusions, felon etc...

HB 357 2009 extended the constitutional right to keep and bare arms to define a vehicle as your "domicile" for lack of better terms. SB 78 took it one step further allowing you to keep a firearm in your vehicle on your companies premises as long as the vehicle is locked or the firearm is in a locked box and the gun is not visible.

The type of firearm does not matter (Edit: as long as you have a CFP), it can be loaded. Rifle, handgun, shotgun whatever, as long as it is a legal firearm. Once you leave your vehicle however it must be unloaded and visible, unless you have a CFP. Then you can carry concealed or open fully loaded. It may not be the smartest thing to walk down the street with an AR15 on your back, but it is not illegal. Provided you are carrying loaded or unloaded correctly for your permit situation.

While hunting there are some "rules" that the DWR likes to think are enforceable laws, and they will likely right you a ticket. But, that has not been tested in courts to date. My opinion is that the courts will throw out the ticket but I am not a lawyer. I don't hunt with a loaded rifle anyway, but I do carry during archery season. I have run into CO's over the years but never had a problem with them and I'm sure that at least two of them saw the sidearm.

Webpage
http://le.utah.gov/~2009/htmdoc/hbillhtm/HB0357.htm

PDF
http://le.utah.gov/~2009/bills/hbillint/hb0357.pdf


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Packbasket said:


> hard to wear a 24" barrel scoped bolt action rifle in a shoulder holster ain't it? :shock:


CCP is a "Concealed weapons permit". It doesnt say handgun. There is no restriction as to the type of weapon... Heck a knife with a 6" blade is considered an illegal weapon to conceal in alot of places without a permit. There is also no requirement to actually Conceal the weapon either if you have a CCP.

CCP just offers you a few extra protections as a gun owner, for example have you ever driven past a school on your way hunting? Its a felony to be near a school with a firearm unless you have a CCP.

-DallanC


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Truemule...I thought we could not carry loaded rifles, shotguns or muzzy's....

From the Utah Public Safety..

C


> arrying in Vehicles
> A person may not carry a loaded weapon in a vehicle unless they have a valid permit to carry or:
> 
> They are at least 18 years old and
> ...


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

.45 said:


> Truemule...I thought we could not carry loaded rifles, shotguns or muzzy's....
> 
> From the Utah Public Safety..
> 
> ...


This is a rule, not a law. Much like cities trying to restrict where and when you can carry a firearms. They can make all the rules they want, but it goes against utah code. The first line doesn't mean much after HB357, and without that line the rest of the statement doesn't hold much water.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Okay....got it truemule !!

Just curious, I always pack a loaded handgun and have unloaded the rifles or shotguns as I probably always will.....thanks !!!


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## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

Thanks much for the replies. 

Now my question is: can the DWR issue a citation legally now for carrying a loaded weapon in a vehicle? (assuming it's a legal weapon, etc.)

My cousin got a $250.00 ticket for having one chambered during the rifle hunt (no, I definitely don't condone road hunting...)

If the DWR cannot legally issue the citation, why are they issuing them? (because they think they are god and rule the universe) :evil: I'm certain the COs now know about this law change.


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## killdeer (Dec 9, 2009)

What a wonderful change in the law. I haven't seen exit holes from inside the cab for many years. This ought to be entertaining. One of my favorites was the kid that put the muzzle on his foot. Ruined a great athletic career. Another is the neighbor who's two year old cranked one of while the old man was driving. Both their hearing was stressed for several months. 
I'll keep my long gun unloaded by the recent definition. Rounds in the magazine, but not in the chamber. My concealed handgun might be treated differently unless the wife is along. Be smart and be careful.


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## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

I was under the impression the DWR can give you a ticket if it's a weapon you are using for the purpose of hunting and not protection.

BTW- Who in the hell wants to keep a Primer on their muzzleloader while in a vehicle? Is it really worth the extra five seconds(max) it takes to put the primer on as you climb out of your auto to shoot that field spike? Does it really make you that much more stealthy when you don't have to rack a shell in as you get out to shoot the doves off the power line? Just wondering.....


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

Before you go doing it here is the link. You can not carrie a loaded rifel,shotgun in a car without a permit. 
When it comes to gun laws you better look them up for your self or call someone who can give you the right anwsers or you might get in trouble.

http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FirearmLaws.html

And here is the rest of it right out of the bill.

68 76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
69 (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
70 (a) in or on a vehicle[;], unless:
71 (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
72 (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the
73 person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
74 (b) on [any] a public street; or
75 (c) in a posted prohibited area.
76 (2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor
77 under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
78 (3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded
79 rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
80 [(2)] (4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.
81 Section 3. Section 76-10-511 is amended to read:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

cklspencer said:


> Before you go doing it here is the link. You can not carrie a loaded rifel,shotgun in a car without a permit.
> When it comes to gun laws you better look them up for your self or call someone who can give you the right anwsers or you might get in trouble.
> 
> http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FirearmLaws.html
> ...


I got it !!! So if *I'm not standing with* some one, I can have a loaded rifle or shotgun in my vehicle !!! Clear as mud !!!! :| :wink:


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

cklspencer said:


> Before you go doing it here is the link. You can not carrie a loaded rifel,shotgun in a car without a permit.
> When it comes to gun laws you better look them up for your self or call someone who can give you the right anwsers or you might get in trouble.
> 
> http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FirearmLaws.html
> ...


First of all the public safety website is WRONG. It states that only an officer can carry a loaded firearm when that is clearly ot the case.
Secondly- I can't find anywhere that says you cannot have a loaded rifle, shotgun, muzzleloader, etc... It only refers to the description as a firearm.

Edit: I see now wher it says you cannot have a rifle, shotguns etc.. loaded unless you have a CFP.


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## younggun20 (Apr 16, 2009)

76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle, *unless:*
(i) *the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
(ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;*
(b) on a public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) Subsection (1)(a) *does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.*
(3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
(4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

So if you are over 18 and allowed by law to own a pistol and also have possession of the car or owner gives you permission. You can carry a loaded pistol

76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

Yes, in the car.


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

younggun20 said:


> So if you are over 18 and allowed by law to own a pistol and also have possession of the car or owner gives you permission. You can carry a loaded *pistol*


Where does it say only pistol?


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## younggun20 (Apr 16, 2009)

My apologies Loaded weapon -


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

It does not say pistol. But it excludes everything else so a hand gun is all that is left.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

can I pack a loaded gun on my 4 wheeler?


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## younggun20 (Apr 16, 2009)

ramrod said:


> can I pack a loaded gun on my 4 wheeler?


out in the field you should be fine...

IANAL


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Just go get your CCP, and you can carry a loaded weapon all the time...even up at the "U"


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

wapiti67 said:


> Just go get your CCP, and you can carry a loaded weapon all the time...even up at the "U"


True except for Federal Buildings and LDS church buildings.

-DallanC


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> wapiti67 said:
> 
> 
> > Just go get your CCP, and you can carry a loaded weapon all the time...even up at the "U"
> ...


Just curious, how can they stop you in a LDS church building?


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

jahan said:


> DallanC said:
> 
> 
> > wapiti67 said:
> ...


They can't except they will lcite you for tresspassing you if you do. There is a part in the code that says anyone that notifies BCI that they do not want people carrying can do so which makes it an infraction basically.

Edit: as apollosmith pointed out it is not trespassing but an infraction, I'm sorry for the confusion


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

I have "forgotten" I had it on and the Bishop just looked at me and went "tsk, tsk"


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

truemule said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > DallanC said:
> ...


Well couldn't the University do the same? Sorry I am just confused how a University can't stop you, but a church can?


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

jahan said:


> Well couldn't the University do the same? Sorry I am just confused how a University can't stop you, but a church can?


The university receives funds from the state which makes them kind of an entity of the state. The state code says that no one in their situation can make laws restricting the carry or ownership of firearms.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

jahan said:


> Just curious, how can they stop you in a LDS church building?


Quite easily. First off its private property, they have a legal basis to do so under a new law. Secondly, they registered with the State Bureau of Criminal Investigation to let people know no guns are allowed. Its actually taught in CPP class now by instructors.



> The First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said in a written statement Friday that it had mailed a letter drafted Jan. 16 to local-level leaders informing them of plans to follow "*Utah law and give public notice that firearms are prohibited* in the church's houses of worship, including temples, meetinghouses, the Assembly Hall, the Salt Lake Tabernacle and the Conference Center."


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... n11435024/

Think of it like tresspassing. Its up to the HUNTER to know where he is, and if hes tresspassing. Same thing with a gun in a LDS building. Its private property, the church has gone the extra mile to make people aware of their rules. Having one on their property and claiming "I didnt know" isnt going to fly.

-DallanC


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

The "u" voted in Board of Directors meeting to allow people with CCP to carry on campus...kind of like a detirent to another Virginia Tech situation...I think the state needs to go a step further and allow Teachers in schools to carry and protect themselves


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks guys, I was just curious. I guess I will learn about it when I go get my CCP.


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## killdeer (Dec 9, 2009)

Wapiti 67, the law allows employees of school districts to carry if they have CCP. Most district policies, by law, put stipulations on "brandishing" or leaving a weapon unattended, an act that could cost your job. I have a CCP but choose not to carry at school. I recommend the same for the 5 members of my family that teach. After 34+ years as a teacher, administrator and certified gun nut I can't support employees carrying in the schools. I also have never felt the need of "deadly force" to protect me or anyone else at school. Maybe 23 years of military training and my professionalism has garnered some respect.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

Wow! A whole lot of VERY BAD and WRONG information in this thread. Please do yourselves a favor and spend some time getting up-to-speed on Utah's gun laws BEFORE carrying a firearm. I'd highly recommend joining us at http://utahconcealedcarry.com/ - there's a whole section on firearms laws. Even if you don't have a permit, there's lots of detail on open carrying, carrying while hunting, vehicle carry, etc. I'd also recommend Utah Gun Laws book by Mitch Vilos.

A few points in reference to this thread:

- You CAN carry a loaded pistol/revolver in a vehicle in Utah open or concealed even if you do not have a concealed firearms permit (CFP). You cannot have a loaded long gun unless you have a concealed firearms permit. DWR cannot cite you for having a loaded firearm in a vehicle of any kind if you have a CFP.

- The vehicle carry law allows carry on bikes, 4-wheelers, etc. As soon as you step off, the vehicle law no longer applies and the gun needs to be unloaded (if you don't have a CFP).

- The UofU, all other state agencies, cities, counties, and municipalities CANNOT restrict firearms in ANY way. I work at a university and carry there every day. The only exceptions are secure areas, police departments, post offices, mental health facilities (this does not mean your local hospital), secure areas of airports, court houses, federal buildings and a few other places.

- Carrying firearms in LDS churches is illegal. Trespassing and carrying a firearm in an LDS church are not the same thing. To be charged, you'd have to get caught, someone call the cops, charges files, and a judge find you guilty. The maximum penalty is an infraction (e.g., less than a speeding ticket) and you cannot lose your CFP for one violation of this law.

- It is NOT illegal to carry in private businesses even if they are posted. Private businesses and residences can, however, ask you to leave for any reason, including carrying a firearm. If you do not leave, you could possibly be charged with trespassing. You can't be charged with trespassing or any other crime simply for carrying (assuming your not a felon, etc.).

- Utah does not have a Castle Doctrine Law. It does, however, provide additional legal protection to you if you must defend your home or a vehicle you are inside of.

- The "U" did NOT vote to allow concealed firearms. They were forced to by the Utah Supreme Court after a lengthy court battle with the Attorney General's Office. The U administration is very anti-gun and is currently fighting to prohibit the open carrying of firearms.

Again, for your own safety, please educate yourselves and don't take the opinion of folks posting misinformation online.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Without reading all of the posts, I have asked several individuals of varying agencies about this very question. You MAY carry a loaded long rifle, muzzy, or shotty if it is you only weapon on hand . However, if you jump out of your vehicle and pull the trigger(one operation) on an animal, you are stewed. Each CO has different ideas on some things, but this is the standard response i have gotten. I don't have to keep my muzzy primed, i carry a handgun all the time and no need for it. I can put a 209 in my smokepole in less than 4 seconds. Plenty of time. I think every law-abiding gun owner should get their CCW permit and not worry about this small stuff.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Killdeer...ty for the info...my mother worked at Granite High School and was stuck in the middle of 4 different fights between gang-members and everyone of those fights involved weapons...she was terrified! She is now 65 and carries everywhere!


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Thank you Apollosmith for setting us all straight


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## bow hunter (Sep 11, 2007)

apollosmith said:


> I'd also recommend Utah Gun Laws book by Mitch Vilos.


+1 it is a very good and informative book, there are so many misconceptions and wrong information out there


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Outstanding post apollo,,very clear and concise to how I understand the laws....

I love having my CCP,, not only being able to carry, but, Its the best 2nd form of ID ever.


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## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

Legal or not.....anyone that carries a loaded firearm in their vehicle is a fool and only asking for some serious trouble.
It should fall under the "common sense" rule IMHO.
Back when i was a kid my hunter safety instructor taught us to NEVER have a loaded weapon until your ready to pull that trigger.
Legal now or not, i will continue on with "the old ways" of the obviously much wiser. :O—–-:


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

skull krazy said:


> Legal or not.....anyone that carries a loaded firearm in their vehicle is a fool and only asking for some serious trouble.
> It should fall under the "common sense" rule IMHO.
> Back when i was a kid my hunter safety instructor taught us to NEVER have a loaded weapon until your ready to pull that trigger.
> Legal now or not, i will continue on with "the old ways" of the obviously much wiser. :O---:


Unacceptable......just totally unacceptable !!

There is no room for 'common sense' in our society anymore !!!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Legal or not.....anyone that carries a loaded firearm in their vehicle is a fool and only asking for some serious trouble.
> It should fall under the "common sense" rule IMHO.
> Back when i was a kid my hunter safety instructor taught us to NEVER have a loaded weapon until your ready to pull that trigger.
> Legal now or not, i will continue on with "the old ways" of the obviously much wiser.


My instructor said to handle all guns as if they were loaded. If your going to always treat a gun as if it's loaded then why not have it loaded?


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Legal or not.....anyone that carries a loaded firearm in their vehicle is a fool and only asking for some serious trouble.
> > It should fall under the "common sense" rule IMHO.
> > Back when i was a kid my hunter safety instructor taught us to NEVER have a loaded weapon until your ready to pull that trigger.
> > Legal now or not, i will continue on with "the old ways" of the obviously much wiser.
> ...


Accidents happen, right? -Ov-


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Accidents happen, right?


Not if you use your head and treat the gun as if it was loaded. Stupid people do stupid things and they cause accidents.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

ok...well, dont come crying to me when you need a gun and it's unloaded...You'll always find mine loaded and ready for bear


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Accidents happen, right?
> 
> 
> Not if you use your head and treat the gun as if it was loaded. Stupid people do stupid things and they cause accidents.


 :roll:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I know what a concept right. :lol: :lol: If you handle the gun or rifle with your hands away the trigger it will never go off. If you always keep your gun pointed in a safe direction away from people then you won't kill someone.

Again it's all about using your head and knowing that a gun isn't a toy.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I agree with skull krazy, just because it's legal doesn't make it smart. Concealed weapons permit or not, nobody rides in my truck with a loaded gun......that includes myself.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

The way I see it is your concealed firearm is usually in a holster where the trigger is covered whereas a rifle or shot gun the trigger is exposed. There have been incidences where a dog has pulled the trigger of a gun, or pulling it out of the vehicle something catches the trigger. 

Then there is the vehicle accident where the gun and other things fly around, where the gun that is in a good holster the trigger remains protected where the long guns don't.

Just a couple of thoughts I had on the subject.


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

my way is better than yours. There now lets debate this for another 10 pages.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

I agree that long guns used for hunting, recreational shooting, etc. should not remain loaded in a vehicle. And as noted, it is illegal for them to be loaded unless you have a concealed firearms permit. Even with the permit, it's not a wise decision.

Now a personal protection pistol or revolver should almost certainly be loaded so long as you are trained and comfortable with it in that condition (and you have a CFP if it is concealed). If you don't have a CFP, it must not have a round in the chamber or one under the hammer and the next cylinder for revolvers and must be openly carried. My pistols are always ready to go - pull the trigger and it goes bang - just like the police and military (generally) carry them. Of course it is also always in a holster that covers the pistol when it's not in the gun safe. To each his own, but to me, an unloaded pistol is just an expensive hammer.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

If the gun is attached to my hip, it is loaded, if it is in a case or laying on the seat it is UNLOADED!


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

TAK said:


> If the gun is attached to my hip, it is loaded, if it is in a case or laying on the seat it is UNLOADED!


I know we're diverging a bit from the original thread, but here's an area where we might disagree. So long as the gun is properly stored or secured, why constantly load and unload it? Now if it's laying in plain view, it might be a good idea or if there are others (kids, childish adults) around, then sure, but when simply going from your hip to the safe/case, I think it's a bad idea to unload every time.

This constant manipulation introduces the possibility of an accident. Also, constantly loading the same bullet into the chamber of an autoloader will set-back the bullet, causing the power to become compressed which can cause the gun to blow up when you need it most. I've seen tests that show that only 2 or 3 times being loaded can cause dangerous levels of set-back. And finally, I prefer knowing the condition of my self defense firearms at all times. My general rule is that it is always loaded and ready to go boom except in rare cases, and then it's rendered generally inoperable (no magazine and slide open, chamber locked, disassembled, etc.).


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## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Accidents happen, right?
> 
> 
> Not if you use your head and treat the gun as if it was loaded. Stupid people do stupid things and they cause accidents.


And having a loaded weapon at all times, in or out of your vehicle isn't stupid?
I wouldn't even be in a vehicle with someone that thinks otherwise!

As a professional guide for 15 years with one of the best outfitters in the business, our #1 rule on the mountian OR in a vehicle is simple...."No bullet in the chamber until your guide tells you to put one in".
NO law will change this rule.


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## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

bowgy said:


> The way I see it is your concealed firearm is usually in a holster where the trigger is covered whereas a rifle or shot gun the trigger is exposed. There have been incidences where a dog has pulled the trigger of a gun, or pulling it out of the vehicle something catches the trigger.
> 
> Then there is the vehicle accident where the gun and other things fly around, where the gun that is in a good holster the trigger remains protected where the long guns don't.
> 
> Just a couple of thoughts I had on the subject.


And don't forget the stories we have all heard about someone accidently dropping a rifle or shotgun when they tripped or slipped and it discharges.
More often than not a firemarm will discharge without your finger being anywhere near that trigger for various reasons.

I am in shock over the positive responses on the new law.....wow. :shock:


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> And don't forget the stories we have all heard about someone accidently dropping a rifle or shotgun when they tripped or slipped and it discharges.
> More often than not a firemarm will discharge without your finger being anywhere near that trigger for various reasons.


That is the problem with an exposed trigger carrying around a loaded gun. It doesn't have to be the finger that pulls the trigger, a twig or limb can press the trigger, I have never been in a hunting situation where I didn't have time to chamber a round, if I didn't have time to chamber a round I didn't have time to take a good clean shot either.

However when it comes to my selfdefense weapon, it is locked and loaded and can be drawn and fired placing 2 rounds in the thorasic cavity within 1.5 seconds. But until it is ready to fire it is in the holster with the trigger covered. I can run, fall and roll on the ground and the gun is still in the holster. Modern firearms in good working condition cannot fire by being dropped or hit, something has to press the trigger.


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

a safty is just another mechanical device that can fail. the only sure way to avoid a accedental discharge is by not having a round in the chamber to start with. as far as personal safty just how long does it take to slid a action on a semi to get it into action. we use drills almost everytime we go to the range
to make sure we can get our service weapons in action rapidly. with a little
range time and practice its surprizing how fast one can get. regardless of any
new law one has to ask themself is the risk worth the cost if anyone does 
have a weapon go off. as for myself i have seen to many cases on the negative side to risk it. but like i said its a personnel choice just chose wisely.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I agree with both Skull crazy and apollosmith....Both entirely different situations though.

Skull is right,,hunting situations rarely require a round being chambered before you know
exactly what your shooting at..........especially when guiding..

And apollo, I also agree, My concealed handgun is very rarely NOT LOADED.
When I'm carrying or its in my vehicle, its ready to go.


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I agree with both Skull crazy and apollosmith....Both entirely different situations though.
> 
> Skull is right,,hunting situations rarely require a round being chambered before you know
> exactly what your shooting at..........especially when guiding..
> ...


Yeah, what he said.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

My concealed carry pistol has not been unloaded since i got my CCW permit over 8 years ago. The only time is when i have been on a plane. What is the point of carrying concealed if you have to remember to load it before someone shoots you? Stupid/ignorant people are the ones who shoot themselves/accidentally discharge their weapons. These people should not be carrying to begin with.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> And having a loaded weapon at all times, in or out of your vehicle isn't stupid?
> I wouldn't even be in a vehicle with someone that thinks otherwise!


Good point!! That nasty loaded hand gun could jump out and shoot someone.


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## Petersen (Sep 7, 2007)

Geech, this isn't Afganistan where sudden, armed ambushes are the norm. If personal safety is the issue, being prepared to defend oneself is great, but a constantly chambered round is an accident waiting to happen whose chances of occurring are considerably greater than finding oneself in a sudden and unexpected highway shootout.


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

Petersen said:


> but a constantly chambered round is an accident waiting to happen whose chances of occurring are considerably greater than finding oneself in a sudden and unexpected highway shootout.


I do not believe this is the case. Thousands of law enforcement officers go to work every day with firearms that are loaded with one on the chamber. Thousands of people with Concealed carry permits carry a loaded firearm daily, Myself included. Yet you here of very few reports of accidental discharges. Not to be confused with a negligent discharge. A loaded handgun in a holster on your hip is completely differnt than a rifle or handgun rumbling around on the floor boards.

On the other hand there are everyday cases in which someone could have, or did use a gun to defend themsleves. Today a person was stabbed by a co-worker, a few days ago the wife of a crazed man ran and hid in her roomates room whom she new had a firearm, which they may have used if her crazy husband hacking down the door with the machete had made it through. A cab driver was assaulted by two men. These are just the last few days.

I don't recall any recent accidental discharges. But, I can think of a story almost everyday in the news where the proper use and deployment of a sidearm may have prevented harm to innocent people.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Like In the great movie True Grit, Rooster (John Wayne) was asked why he keeps his chamber empty. "So I won't shoot my foot off". I'm always surprised how many people have a loaded gun with a bullet in the chamber. I love all my guns and try to purchase them as often as possible but this thread proves the point on why I can't support these type of laws. Once again Utah has proven that it is so far right winged that it is like a liberal democrat. In any situation, You will be just as fast and probably more accurate taking your time moving a bullet into the chamber. Safeties fail, a drop here, a bang there, things happen to the best people. If the bullet is in the chamber there is 100% more of a chance that the gun will fire. Be safe


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The same court room scene in True grit as it went on...........

Prosecutor asked Rooster: " When you advanced on old man Warden, was your gun
loaded and ****ed?

Rooster responds: "Well, A gun that aint loaded and ****ed aint good for nothing!"


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Brookie said:


> In any situation, You will be just as fast and probably more accurate taking your time moving a bullet into the chamber.


The one and only time someone ever pulled a gun on me and a couple friends, it happened so fast there is no way in hell I could have pulled a weapon, chambered a round and been ready to defend myself. Luckily in that specific situation the guy (obviously stoned) just waved his revolver around, never specifically pointing it at anyone of us. Pretty spooky situation.

As for the afganistan comment above. I live in UT county and drive to SLC every day, right past pioneer park. I've watched drug deals go down right beside the car, seen foot pursuits run right past the car... even passed a dead guy laying in the road. About 2 months ago one of my co-workers got accosted by a transient that tried to drag him off and rape him. In my parking lot is where that girl got raped last winter, right at noontime in plain view.

This isn't happening in Afganistan, its not downtown LA, just downtown SLC. If you don't think this shxt can happen to you... I don't know what to tell you, its happening to other people every day in our citys.

-DallanC


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Ignorance is bliss :roll: 

The chances of me needing to pull my weapon to defend myself or family is about the same as my house catching fire, but I still have fire extinguishers and insurance.

Carrying an unloaded gun is about the same as if my fire extinguishers were empty or my insurance was not paid up.

I probably will never need it but if I do it is there. Those that think you shouldn't carry it loaded are probably right, for them that is, they shouldn't. However if you get the proper training and keep up with the practice, carrying a loaded gun is very safe.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

I have lots of stories of people thinking it could never happen to them. Granted my job puts me in areas and in contact with the worst of the worst, nice homes and areas also have crime. If its on me its loaded, if you see me you can bet I'm carrying. That said I do not carry my rifles and shotguns hot, not even in the duck blind. In hunting situations I have plenty of time to see the animal and load up, self defense you don't.

I've seen two guns go off in the cab of a truck, one caused
hearing loss and a back window, the other a transmission and front tire. 
Self defense you can not draw, rack the slide and fire if the guy is within 20ft and coming at you with a knife or other weapon. Try drawing and chamber a round with one hand while holding back a criminal and he is stabbing you.
Modern handguns are extremely safe and are designed to be carried loaded, accidental discharges happen when dummies play with their guns, it'll never go off sitting in a holster!

Brookie, you are more than welcome to leave Utah, New York and New Jersey might be a better fit for you. In Utah we believe in the constitution and in the right to keep and bear arms. We have a very low crime rate and very few accidents involving firearms, and most homes in Utah have several firearms, again to you liberals guns are not the problem, law abiding citizens are not the problem, concealed carry permit holders are not the problem. Its you liberals and liberal judges giving criminals nothing more than a noogie and then setting them free, that's the problem!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

truemule said:


> Petersen said:
> 
> 
> > but a constantly chambered round is an accident waiting to happen whose chances of occurring are considerably greater than finding oneself in a sudden and unexpected highway shootout.
> ...


 Your missing the point here. I don't argue with a CWP holder having a sidearm (sidearm is a pistol) loaded and ready, but my beef is with the shotgun, the rifle. I also carrry a gun every day of my life and have for the better part of 14 years. Yet my Shotgun and my AR remain unloaded but made ready in a very simple second!


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

+1


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

As an officer I am happy as a pig in poop to know that people are CWP holders! I just don't like the fact it is a pratice that some of you may carry a loaded rifle, or shotgun in your truck. Maybe there is only a few cases where people were hurt over this but one is to many. S**** can happen, and I would have to live with the guilt of thinking, only if I would have not left the gun loaded! Due you want to be that guy?
I do happen to know of three AD's, and I would not say they was stupid people, one that comes to mind the most is setting a shotgun after a hunt on the front seat, leaving it loaded and the dog thought getting in the truck was in the front seat. Air conditioning, and a need for a new break peddle! 
I can not agree with Peterson anymore than if I would have posted his post for him! And for the feller that brought the fact that cops carry them loaded... We do, but only when they are on our sides, in our best control possible and not just laying on the seat, or even in a locked box!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

bowgy said:


> Ignorance is bliss :roll:
> The chances of me needing to pull my weapon to defend myself or family is about the same as my house catching fire, but I still have fire extinguishers and insurance.
> Carrying an unloaded gun is about the same as if my fire extinguishers were empty or my insurance was not paid up.
> I probably will never need it but if I do it is there. Those that think you shouldn't carry it loaded are probably right, for them that is, they shouldn't. However if you get the proper training and keep up with the practice, carrying a loaded gun is very safe.


I might be the one off a few pages, but is this not about hunting rifles and hunting rifles in a vehicle? I am all for the permit holders having that thing jam packed with the nastiest stuff around. But out hunting on your seat, or bouncing around behind it in a box or out?


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

apollosmith said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> > If the gun is attached to my hip, it is loaded, if it is in a case or laying on the seat it is UNLOADED!
> ...


 And I agree with you 98%! I am one that if I don't have my greedy little hands on it or I can't control it the best I can, I like it unloaded! 
My beef is the fella out hunting with it on the seat, or better yet the gun in the back window on display! 
Most all the guys I hunt with check my gun as I do theirs! Thank god, for as much as we are around guns we have never had a AD or a really loud WTF was that!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > And having a loaded weapon at all times, in or out of your vehicle isn't stupid?
> > I wouldn't even be in a vehicle with someone that thinks otherwise!
> 
> 
> Good point!! That nasty loaded hand gun could jump out and shoot someone.


You never fail to amaze me... As someone as accident prone as you are, and having an accident happen to you, you do not take some things more serious..... But your right it will never happen to you, as I owuld guess you did not think you would be in that wheel chair....

S**** HAPPINS!


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> The same court room scene in True grit as it went on...........
> 
> Prosecutor asked Rooster: " When you advanced on old man Warden, was your gun
> loaded and ****ed? This is my point: His gun was loaded which I'm fine with, but not in the firing position notice he ****ed his gun because he was advancing this is my inference.
> ...


[/quote:j0vpkz4u] don't call me liberal I'm far from it.

I know of 2 cases of one kid shooting his hand this year when his concealed weapon went off and another that hit the ground next to his foot.
I don't think they get reported very often. It would be shameful.

I own guns and even bought a smaller gun so I can conceal it but I not going to have a bullet in the chamber.

Also, I'm a teacher, I would much rather take a bullet in the shoulder like they taught me in college than to risk shooting and have a bullet from my gun hit a child. Do you really trust a teacher to be able to not shoot your daughter, son or grandchild. Next thing are you really ready to take a life. I know armed citizens stop alot of crime. I've never said take guns away. I like them and plan on shooting some tomorrow. I Just believe you don't need to have one in the chamber while going to the mall etc.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> You never fail to amaze me... As someone as accident prone as you are, and having an accident happen to you, you do not take some things more serious..... But your right it will never happen to you, as I owuld guess you did not think you would be in that wheel chair....
> 
> S**** HAPPINS!


Hmm one accident and now I'm labeled as someone having lots of accidents. :lol: :lol: :lol: You totally missed my point. Maybe you should learn to read a few pages before you start spouting off BS. Yes, I shouldnt have been driving when I was so tired, but having the seltbelt on would have killed me.

People who handle their guns with care and treat them as if they are loaded don't shoot themselves in their trucks. I have never had a bullet in the chamber because it only takes one second to put one in.

S**** HAPPINS! BTW it's spelled HAPPENS :wink:


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Brookie I get where you are coming from now. The kid that has had two AD really needs some firearm training. Do I trust a teacher to not hit a innocent child, no I don't. There are plenty of stories where police have shot innocent bystanders, I really don't trust anyone.
I think since we are required to get a permit there should be a firearms competency test. What they do now does nothing in ensuring that a permit holder can handle a firearm safely. I don't think the permit instructor should be teaching a class on firearm safety, just testing the class on handling and shooting within 25ft. If they don't pass they can go take a course or find someone to teach them, come back and take the class again. Its obvious from reading the first six pages that many with carry permits don't understand the laws. I think Utah needs to take a look at how the class is taught and at who is teaching it, test the instructors yearly.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Greenhead 2 said:


> Brookie I get where you are coming from now. The kid that has had two AD really needs some firearm training. Do I trust a teacher to not hit a innocent child, no I don't. There are plenty of stories where police have shot innocent bystanders, I really don't trust anyone.
> *I think since we are required to get a permit there should be a* *firearms competency test*. *What they do now does nothing in ensuring that a permit holder can handle a firearm safely.* I don't think the permit instructor should be teaching a class on firearm safety, just testing the class on handling and shooting within 25ft. If they don't pass they can go take a course or find someone to teach them, come back and take the class again. Its obvious from reading the first six pages that many with carry permits don't understand the laws. I think Utah needs to take a look at how the class is taught and at who is teaching it, test the instructors yearly.


I wish they would !!!!!!


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

So maybe they should require religion classes before you can to go to church or speech classes before you are able to speak in public or maybe require a class and a permit for you to peaceably assemble, right?

I'd rather see a system like Alaska has where (assuming you're not a felon), you can keep and BEAR arms (kinda like the constitution says) without a class or permit or anything else.

Now I do think that training and classes are wonderful and everyone should take them. And the penalties for negligent discharges or worse should be VERY steep. If you violate a firearms law, you should lose your rights. But last time I checked, a citizen shouldn't need permission from the government to exercise their constitutionally enumerated rights.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

apollosmith....

Why should it so tough to require some training and testing before permits are given out ? We were all required to do this before we got our blue cards. It's not infringing on anybody's rights, a simple course with a little training involved. For example: which end of the gun goes bang, how to load, how to fire, when to shoot, how to aim, how to unload, store and clean the firearm. Is this too much to ask? 
And yes, since the subject came up, I'm totally against the CC Permits without some form of training.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

I totally agree! I think its the instructors complaining the most about the shooting portion of a class, takes away from their quick buck deal they have going now. It was required when Utah first became a "shall issue" state.
Also by requiring a firearms competency portion to the class where shooting is required, we would pick up several more states to carry in. For me and others who work, travel and hunt out of state this would be a good thing.


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

TAK said:


> Your missing the point here. I don't argue with a CWP holder having a sidearm (sidearm is a pistol) loaded and ready, but my beef is with the shotgun, the rifle. I also carrry a gun every day of my life and have for the better part of 14 years. Yet my Shotgun and my AR remain unloaded but made ready in a very simple second!


TAK,
I completely agree with you. This thread did get off track and I was just defending the loaded CWP. I never hunt with a loaded rifle, shotguns etc.. in or on anytype of vehicle.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > You never fail to amaze me... As someone as accident prone as you are, and having an accident happen to you, you do not take some things more serious..... But your right it will never happen to you, as I *owuld* guess you did not think you would be in that wheel chair....
> > S**** HAPPINS!
> 
> 
> ...


Ohh... sorry more the typo... But if your going to be the teacher you missed the other typo... This should read would!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

It's nice that you can finally see your own mistakes.  BUT maybe you were drunk last night.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> It's nice that you can finally see your own mistakes.  BUT maybe you were drunk last night.


Only on the days that end in "Y" TodaY, yesterdaY, Another-daY, tommorrow? Ohh Ya its SundaY! 
And yes I do have them mistakes, but because I have the hunting guns in the vehicle unloaded, it won't be that type of mistake!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

.45 said:


> apollosmith....
> 
> Why should it so tough to require some training and testing before permits are given out ? We were all required to do this before we got our blue cards. It's not infringing on anybody's rights, a simple course with a little training involved. For example: which end of the gun goes bang, how to load, how to fire, when to shoot, how to aim, how to unload, store and clean the firearm. Is this too much to ask?
> And yes, since the subject came up, I'm totally against the CC Permits without some form of training.


It was at one time part of the training. I have been directly involved with many CC courses that after passing all other parts that was required we then meet for the shooting part of it. Problem was, and this is sad is that many of the folks that was there had no clue how to operate the gun! 
My opinion a 2 hour shoot aint going to cut it. But it was easy to see the folks that have had a gun in thier hands before.


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## clean pass through (Nov 26, 2007)

As a officer myself, I carry nearly every day. For all those that think if you have a AD you are an idiot, I hope a AD never happens to you! No, I have never had an AD but accidents could happen, shouldn't, but do, even to those who are very well trained. I will always carry my sidearm loaded and ready to go! But I will not carry my rifle or muzzy ready to go. 

The way I understand the new law for firearms in cars is: you can carry a handgun loaded and concelaed in the vehicle you own and is registered to YOU. You cannot carry a long gun loaded of any shape or size in the vehicle. If you don't own the vehicle this law does not apply to you. If you have a conceled carry permit you can have anything loaded, if I think it is safe or not. This is from the County Atttorney of the county I work! 

I agree with the law for those who are trained to carry and operate a firearm. But for JOE- Blow off the street I think they should have some kind of training on how to operate and shoot there firearm accuratly under low stress situations. Under high stress situations (when you are being shot at) I bet most of the people on this forum could not perform anyway. When in training, it is amazing how bad your shot patterns become when you are under a stressful situation. Sorry just opened up another can of worms to think about. 

For all those that think you should not have to prove your proficiency with a hand gun before your issued a CCP I think it is flat out WRONG! My opinon, take it or leave it.


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

.45 said:


> Why should it so tough to require some training and testing before permits are given out ? We were all required to do this before we got our blue cards.


You don't have a right to go hunting. Hunting is a privilege. Privileges naturally can and should have restrictions and requirements. Rights, such as keeping and bearing of arms, should not be infringed - at least that's how people who believe in the constitution should view them.

Your viewpoint on this really depends upon how you view your constitutional rights. If you view them as something the government grants you, then it's natural for you to think that the government should limit who can be given rights. If you view rights as inalienable and god-given, then you know that only you can rescind those rights through inappropriate behavior (e.g., you shoot someone or beat your wife or deal drugs, you lose your rights).

Now I'm not saying that I'm not in favor of training or shooting or anything else - anybody that carries a firearm for any purpose should take it upon themselves to be well trained. All rights come with responsibility (speech - don't shout "fire" in a theater, religion - don't force religion on others, etc.). But I do not believe that a class or even a permit should be a _requirement_ for exercising one's right to keep and bear arms. Certainly the founding fathers would never have suggested government issued permits. Afterall, the primary purpose of the second amendment was so that those arms could be used to overthrow said government if need be - it does very little good to have the amendment if the government controls when and how those arms can be kept.

For example, should my grandmother be restricted from being able to exercise her right to self defense just because she may not be able to pass a shooting test at a range. If it came down to it, I'm sure she could and would reasonably defend herself if she had to - and she could do so reasonably without harming others. Who am I to say that her rights are less valuable than mine just because I'm a crackshot and she has Parkinson's?


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## apollosmith (Jun 29, 2008)

clean pass through said:


> The way I understand the new law for firearms in cars is: you can carry a handgun loaded and concelaed in the vehicle you own and is registered to YOU.


Here's the law:



> 76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
> (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
> (a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
> (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
> ...


You see here that it applies to your own vehicle or to another vehicle so long as the person in possession of the vehicle gives their consent.

And yes, it specifically prohibits the carrying of rifles, shotguns, or muzzle-loaders.

But remember that a CFP exempts you from this entire section of the law, so you CAN have loaded long guns in your vehicle if you have a CFP (though as I and many others have noted, this is almost universally a bad idea).


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I think the shooting portion would be a good idea. At my ccp class, I was just amazed at some of the guys who just kind of came along with their coworkers and really did not have a clue as to how to even work the action of a semi auto pistol, grabbed the trigger as soon as they got the firearm....I was certainly concerned. Those are all things I learned at the age of 11 or so.


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## hunter_orange13 (Oct 11, 2008)

one time about 4 ish years ago, maybe more i was about 10. anyways, i was shooting clays with my dad and his friends, having a good time. then my dads shotgun randomly goes off. its a pump so he leaves it. then he thought he might've bumped the trigger. pumped a shell in and BOOM. nope, the gun was broken. safety didn't work and you didn't have to pull the trigger. that honestly scared the living crap outta me. and, didn't we learn in hunters safety to only load a gun when you're gonna use it? why load it hours before IN THE CAR? i can see loading you .30-06 45 mins before legal shooting time ont he deer hunt. but loaded in the car on the way up?


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## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

Here's a test of faith for all of you that trust your safety so much.
I dare you to take your most trusted weapon of choice, load it, set the firing pin and set that safety.
Now point it at your leg (i'd say put it under your chin but i wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy) and start tugging on that trigger. :^8^:


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

skull krazy said:


> Here's a test of faith for all of you that trust your safety so much.
> I dare you to take your most trusted weapon of choice, load it, set the firing pin and set that safety.
> Now point it at your leg (i'd say put it under your chin but i wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy) and start tugging on that trigger. :^8^:


It worked!!! I had to try four different guns before I found that my lever action didn't have a safety. Man that gonna leave a mark.

Of course I had to break all of the four rules of handling a firearm for this test so I'm not sure I can put much faith in it. But, thanks for the Idea Skull.

Sarcasm off.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I have seen this thread for a while now and have never clicked on it until today. It just didn't seem that interesting to me. I just skimmed over the 10 pages to see what I was missing and the only thing that I felt that I NEEDED to know were the two references from "True Grit". :mrgreen:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> I have seen this thread for a while now and have never clicked on it until today. It just didn't seem that interesting to me. I just skimmed over the 10 pages to see what I was missing and the only thing that I felt that I NEEDED to know were the two references from "True Grit". :mrgreen:


 :lol: :lol: :lol:[attachment=1:h7zql8jp]true_grit_mar06_rex_170.jpg[/attachment:h7zql8jp][attachment=0:h7zql8jp]MV5BMjA1ODA5NzY3MF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNjYyMjU2__V1__SX272_SY400_.jpg[/attachment:h7zql8jp]

I still watch True Grit and the Cowboys about once a month.........
My two boys and there friends watch them on DVD all the time on my TV.


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## sniper (Dec 13, 2007)

I have helped with several CCW classes and was surprised at the number of people who knew nothing about firearms. I am glad they were intereted in getting their pemit, but in my opinion some didn't seem responsible enough to carry a loaded firearm. I don't know if the state should require a firearms training portion with the class or not, but I think the instructors should offer or recommend a firearms class. I think most people who were not comfortable with a firearm would attend a short training class with some actual range time.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> TAK wrote: bowgy wrote:
> Ignorance is bliss
> The chances of me needing to pull my weapon to defend myself or family is about the same as my house catching fire, but I still have fire extinguishers and insurance.
> Carrying an unloaded gun is about the same as if my fire extinguishers were empty or my insurance was not paid up.
> ...


Yes and Yes, you are a few pages off if you read my previous posts on this thread, and It is about hunting rifles and shotguns, this post you quoted was just in response to a couple of the posts just previous to this one.


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

Rules...laws...

Safety is independent of any rules or laws. 




"Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid"

"I never shot no one I didn't have to...."

"FILL YOUR HANDS YOU SON OF A ..."


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> sniper wrote: I have helped with several CCW classes and was surprised at the number of people who knew nothing about firearms. I am glad they were intereted in getting their pemit, but in my opinion some didn't seem responsible enough to carry a loaded firearm. I don't know if the state should require a firearms training portion with the class or not, but I think the instructors should offer or recommend a firearms class. I think most people who were not comfortable with a firearm would attend a short training class with some actual range time.


I had been a NRA fireams instructor for 12 years in rifle, shotgun and pistol, had achived the expert bage in the army, and had my concealed permit for 6 years before I took a 4 day defensive hand gun training course at Front Sight Fireams Institute.

The main thing I learned is that I should never had been carrying my firearm without this training. I think it is very important that any wanting to carry should take some sort of training like this. I am all for those that want to carry a firearm to have as much training as possible and practice this training. However I am against it being forced by law.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

bowgy said:


> I had been a NRA fireams instructor for 12 years in rifle, shotgun and pistol, had achived the expert bage in the army, and had my concealed permit for 6 years before I took a 4 day defensive hand gun training course at Front Sight Fireams Institute.
> 
> The main thing I learned is that I should never had been carrying my firearm without this training. I think it is very important that any wanting to carry should take some sort of training like this. I am all for those that want to carry a firearm to have as much training as possible and practice this training. *However I am against it being forced by law*.


Why ? The law requires you to have permit anyhow. Lets just do away with the permits.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> .45 wrote: Why ? The law requires you to have permit anyhow. Lets just do away with the permits


Only to conceal, you can open carry in Utah, no permit required, no class, no training.
That is why the class is so simple, they just need to inform you of the laws really.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

bowgy said:


> > .45 wrote: Why ? The law requires you to have permit anyhow. Lets just do away with the permits
> 
> 
> Only to conceal, you can open carry in Utah, no permit required, no class, no training.
> That is why the class is so simple, they just need to inform you of the laws really.


I know......my point being, if we _have_ to get a permit to carry concealed, why not take a test ? The 'law' is requiring you to have a permit, which you've agreed to. Now why not allow them to give you a test ?


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

This thread seems to have evolved into two seperate topics: 1) loaded "hunting" firearms in a vehicle, and 2) Conceal and carry classes. 

In the first, I am not sure the "new" law/interpretatioin of law makes loaded "hunting" firearms in a vehicle legal. I think it attempts to exclude "hunting" firearms. Of course, the samantics still need to be defined.


On the second, the problem with the current conceal and carry classes is that other states are lining up to "not recognize" Utah's conceal and carry permit because we do not require a live fire proficiency test. When I go on vacation to other states I would like to keep my firearm with me in my vehicle legally so it would be to our advantage to bring Utah into compliance with the requirements of other states to insure resaprocity.

My 2 cents. :?


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> I know......my point being, if we have to get a permit to carry concealed, why not take a test ? The 'law' is requiring you to have a permit, which you've agreed to. Now why not allow them to give you a test ?


Ok, I see where you are coming from. If you have to have a permit and take some sort of class, then yes, I have no problem making it more intensive, my CFP instructor did have us shoot our firearms.

However, I don't agree with having to have a permit for my right to carry in the first place. But in saying that, I think all who want to carry should take some training and then take some more.


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