# Wasatch Debacle



## Igottabigone

There is a new committee to try and revise the management plan for elk on the Wasatch Unit. All the usual players are on said committee, even the Forest Service (which is interesting to me). Anyway, this past week the committee met and ALL but the DWR said the elk heard was suffering. This includes conservation orgs, sportsmans, landowners, ranchers, etc. etc. 

However, the DWR apparently believes the Wasatch elk numbers are currently growing. WTF? Covey and Dale the biologists for the DWR estimate the heard numbers at 10,000 elk. Dax is probably with them too. Again, WTF? Last year they had unlimited cow tags for the majority of the unit. So with approximately 2,800 tags for cow elk how many would you estimate were killed. According to the DWR, 130 cows were killed last year unit wide. WTF? So with a thriving elk herd, according to the DWR, the success rates for cows was 4%. Interesting that the DWR says there are 10,000 head of elk and the US Forest Service guy pipes up and says if there were that many elk he'd be hearing from the ag guys. Funny though that he indicates the ag guys say the elk aren't there. So the DWR says the plan again this year is to go open season on the elk. Interesting to note, though, that the DWR acknowledges that the elk on the southern part of the unit, Diamond Fork, Sheep Creek, Tie Fork, etc. are all but gone. According to the DWR this herd of elk crossed highway 6 and are now on the Manti unit. Mind you this was a very robust herd 3 to 4 years ago that is now gone! 

So the question must be asked, is the DWR wrong on this or is everybody else? If its everybody else, then why? Hunting cows from August to January and the success rate is 4%. How is that possible if there are 10K head of elk on the unit? Ask Dale Litche. He'll say they are hiding in the trees.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

I personally had a cow tag in 2008 and hunted the southern area mentioned. I was able to easily fill my tag and witnessed multiple groups of elk in the hundreds. I tried to help my father kill a cow there year before last and we only found 1 group of 20 or so cows while hunting. We were no where near the roads, and looking all over in the "trees". I'd say the DWR is doing something WRONG!


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## goofy elk

Igottabigone said:


> Covey and Dale the biologists for the DWR estimate the heard numbers at 10,000 elk. Dax is probably with them too.
> 
> According to the DWR this herd of elk crossed highway 6 and are now on the Manti unit. Mind you this was a very robust herd 3 to 4 years ago that is now gone!
> QUOTE]
> 
> Both these statments made by the DWR is SOOOOOOO much BS it unreal!
> 
> I'm up the canyons off highway 6 almost EVERY DAY!!! ( headed there now)
> 
> You cant go up Lakefork, Diamond Fork, Sheep creek, Dairy fork,
> Starvation, Tie fork, Tucker , Indianola, Marble quary with out seeing
> MY tracks.....
> 
> I've gone up there 7 days a week all winter...
> Rotate canyons daily I go up and keep open....
> Way lower elk herd numbers even on the North Manti side!!!!!
> 
> Yet to see a DWR guy up there ALL WINTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Pure BS!


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## Lonetree

Hey, the deer herds are growing too ;-)


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## Lonetree

Related note: With the fencing of Highway 6, future migrations are going to be severely impacted. I don't know a lot about the elk in that area, but many of the deer have some serious health issues. And I would expect much of this to only continue to get worse, with the miles and miles of pesticide spraying that has occurred along all of the power line right of ways from the mouth of the canyon all the way to Price.










Much of the spraying has been done in the last 2 years.


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## tallbuck

So how do we get representation (The general guys) at these meetings, maybe even bring photos of herds size and also field observations? There has to some accountability from the DWR if they are shamming the numbers for $ sakes!?!... Can we see what data they are showing to this group?


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## #1DEER 1-I

Lonetree said:


> Related note: With the fencing of Highway 6, future migrations are going to be severely impacted. I don't know a lot about the elk in that area, but many of the deer have some serious health issues. And I would expect much of this to only continue to get worse, with the miles and miles of pesticide spraying that has occurred along all of the power line right of ways from the mouth of the canyon all the way to Price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Much of the spraying has been done in the last 2 years.


With the fencing are they at least planning on created wildlife crossing along highway 6?


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## DallanC

There's alot of people buying cow tags who dont have the first clue where to find elk. Got a neighbor like that, he gets one almost every year and has yet to kill one. Thinks its supposed to be as easy as a deer hunt. 

There are guys who consistently kill elk every year, and guys who consistently go home empty handed each year. IMO the vast majority of people who get cow tags are throwing their money away... its a good cash machine for the DWR, they can sell infinite cow tags and for the most part, the vast majority wont tag out. 

My boy drew late season Avintiquin cow elk one year, as he turned 12 in Nov it was the only hunt he could hunt. That was the year the DWR gave out tons of tags via the draw ... and then threw in 900 more OTC. Elk were chased so hard it was very difficult to find them, and harvest rates plumeted. Final day I got him within 150 yards of a cow and he got his shot, but I've always been better at finding elk than the average joe. 

-DallanC


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## Lonetree

#1DEER 1-I said:


> With the fencing are they at least planning on created wildlife crossing along highway 6?


I don't know on that.

Edit: I know that spring of 2014 the deer were funneling heavy through the unfenced areas, as some of the last of it was going up.


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## #1DEER 1-I

So with this wasatch elk herd, if there are that many elk, then why are we pressuring them with unlimited tags into private areas and keeping them off public? Stop the constant money first slogan UDWR and lets cut these tags to nothing for anterless for a year and see if those elk hiding in the trees come out. If there's that many **** elk and they're all hiding in the trees how are you counting them? So many back the DWR, and while I think they have a tough job many times, it seems to me there must be a little something wrong with the wasatch elk herd with all the complaints from so many different directions. 

There's much fewer elk on units I frequent and I can go see hundreds every day no problem, if there's 10,000 and you can't see any there's a problem, and your numbers are super inflated and preposterous. Just because you see a herd or two of a hundred elk, doesn't add up to the 10,000 they're alluding to.

If there's that many elk prove it. The Utah DWR is being heavily doubted on this issue. If you can prove it by your flight count, video tape the counts and upload them for the public to see. If the elk are there you should be able to prove it, if not, then it'll finally show how much this is about money and not our wildlife in this crooked state.


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## Lonetree

Here is an example of a power line sprayed in Spanish fork canyon, the first image is from 2011, the second is 2013 after the spraying. There is square miles of treated area.

Pesticide exposure has been documented to alter migratory patterns and feeding patterns. This is for several reasons, but is never a good thing.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Lonetree said:


> I don't know on that.


I hope so. It's better than throwing up a permanent barrier with no way across for our wildlife.


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## tallbuck

#1DEER 1-I said:


> With the fencing are they at least planning on created wildlife crossing along highway 6?


Found this article from UDOT...

Hwy 6 is mentioned and elk are brought up...

http://www.udot.utah.gov/main/uconowner.gf?n=10315521671291686


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## Lonetree

tallbuck said:


> Found this article from UDOT...
> 
> Unit 6 is mentioned and elk are brought up...
> 
> http://www.udot.utah.gov/main/uconowner.gf?n=10315521671291686


Thanks for the link. The numbers don't look very good for elk crossings.


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## #1DEER 1-I

tallbuck said:


> Found this article from UDOT...
> 
> Unit 6 is mentioned and elk are brought up...
> 
> http://www.udot.utah.gov/main/uconowner.gf?n=10315521671291686


So it appears multiple crossing spots already exhist on highway 6?


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## #1DEER 1-I

Lonetree said:


> Thanks for the link. The numbers don't look very good for elk crossings.


And no elk don't seem to like the crossings much at all.


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## tallbuck

Looks like from the report, Elk shy away from the crossings. They mentioned that they were very weren't very effective for elk as there was no habit around the crossings which made elk weary about crossing. 

So that being said, how is it that elk are migrating from south Wasatch to north Manti unit? This report was done in 2008 so how have numbers been counted for the past few years?


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## tallbuck

#1DEER 1-I said:


> So it appears multiple crossing spots already exhist on highway 6?


Yes, this study was done in 2008


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## Lonetree

tallbuck said:


> Looks like from the report, Elk shy away from the crossings. They mentioned that they were very weren't very effective for elk as there was no habit around the crossings which made elk weary about crossing.
> 
> So that being said, how is it that elk are migrating from south Wasatch to north Manti unit? This report was done in 2008 so how have numbers been counted for the past few years?


In 2008 much of it was not fenced. I sat on several spots last spring where they were finishing up the fencing East of the summit. The deer were funneling through the remaining spots, both directions.

Many were coming into the highway to mag-chloride licks, as were moose. I saw no elk tracks at these spots, but this is just a hand full of places.

It is now mostly fenced from the mouth of Spanish fork canyon, to East of Price.

The fencing was done because of all of the vehicle collisions. Another pesticide connection: You spray the road sides, it draws in deer and moose, they get sick, they then return to the road sides for salt and magnesium chloride. I can show you multiple places in Idaho, Utah, Wyoming and Montana where this occurs.

The ironic part of much of this is that they spray the road sides with herbicides to create a "viewing lane" so motorists can see animals entering the highway. This is supposed to be to deter collisions, yet it has the opposite effect. It brings the animals into and onto the highway, in a primary and secondary way.

Throw in the power lines and pipe lines, and you are now drawing animals into the road way for minerals in another way. 30+ years ago, deer, bighorn sheep and moose did not camp out on highways licking minerals. Sure they might have utilized these sources, but they did not park on them for most of the year like we see now.

When all of this fails, then they come in with the fences. We are going to look like Texas before too long, and I'm pretty sure some people want it that way.


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## Lonetree

Most elk are going to avoid the highway unless they have to, but that is not the case with the power lines and pipe lines, those don't have traffic and noise, and they become travel corridors that did not exist before they were cleared. 

Two fold, if they are using phenoxy herbicides like 2,4-D, that act on dicots, the area will get repopulated with monocots. Dicots being things like oak brush and maples, and monocots being things like grasses and bluebells. So these become not only new travel corridors, but they become new prfferable feeding grounds for grazers like elk. That is why this technique is used to alter habitat fro cattle.

I have seen elk and antelope use these travel corridors, and change up old patterns after they appear. Depending on the formulation used, and the conditions on the ground, these areas can remain a danger for several years to wildlife and they get drawn into these areas via different means.


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## hawkeye

Lonetree-

Is the power company using pesticides or herbicides? Judging from your photos, I would guess herbicides to help with fire control. I am not sure what impact these chemicals have on wildlife but I would assume that herbicides have less of an impact that pesticides. What are your thoughts?

Hawkeye


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## Lonetree

In short, I'm not discounting the F&Gs "they moved" claim, I can certainly see it happening, because I have seen similar things in the past, much like mountain goat, big horn sheep, and antelope dispersals.

That being said, they have no clue on just about anything else. So I would say the BS call is still appropriate on many levels.


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## Lonetree

hawkeye said:


> Lonetree-
> 
> Is the power company using pesticides or herbicides? Judging from your photos, I would guess herbicides to help with fire control. I am not sure what impact these chemicals have on wildlife but I would assume that herbicides have less of an impact that pesticides. What are your thoughts?
> 
> Hawkeye


Herbicides are pesticides, as are insecticides, and biocides. We used to distinguish better, but the norm has been to call them all "pesticides" as an umbrella term.

Some insecticides and herbicides are essentially interchangeable on a molecular level, both in structure, and their biological affects in mammals.

In many places they use Garlon 4 Ultra(Triclopyr), this is a pyridine herbicide that also works as a mineral chelator. Garlon is very similar on a molecular level to 2,4,5-T which was one half of the compound "Agent Orange", 2,4-D being the other half. 2,4,5-T was banned, and Triclopyr is what replaced it.

2,4-D is also used in many places as well.

Some of the toxic effects of Triclopyr observed in rat studies include delayed ossification of skull bones. This looks very similar to the arrested development of the premaxillary bones in the skulls of deer and elk with under bites. The root cause of these under bites being diagnosed as fetal hypothyroidism.

Depending on the insecticide, biocide, or herbicide used, the combination, and the species, you do see different results. But ultimately the results are all very similar, its just a matter of how it all plays out.

In the below chart, you plug in a particular pesticide, and you will get a particular result. Change the pesticide in the "pesticide exposure" slot, and you will get a different result, but it will be similarly related to the first results.


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## berrysblaster

Plenty of elk, I see 400"ers every day and 450"s at least once a month you guys suck


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## ultramagfan2000

It would not be the first time DWR biologists were told to inflate numbers. There is a reason many of the long time biologist retired as soon as they could in the 90's or just left the state to go to a more wildlife friendly state?


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## Catherder

Lonetree said:


> 2,4-D is also used in many places as well.


If I may, 2,4-D is used by a lot of folks as the active ingredient to kill dandelions in many "weed and feed" fertilizer products. It has been implicated in causing lymphoma in dogs. The case has never been fully proven, but I'm nervous about using the stuff. I won't let the kids (or the dog) play on the lawn when my wife makes me put some down for the dandelions.

I would imagine that ungulate exposure to this and related products used in the vicinity would be higher than what a dog or person would get.

Carry on.


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## Lonetree

Catherder said:


> If I may, 2,4-D is used by a lot of folks as the active ingredient to kill dandelions in many "weed and feed" fertilizer products. It has been implicated in causing lymphoma in dogs. The case has never been fully proven, but I'm nervous about using the stuff. I won't let the kids (or the dog) play on the lawn when my wife makes me put some down for the dandelions.
> 
> I would imagine that ungulate exposure to this and related products used in the vicinity would be higher than what a dog or person would get.
> 
> Carry on.


Here is a study about thyroid disorders and pesticide "applicators": http://www.beyondpesticides.org/dailynewsblog/?p=3161

Keep in mind that these people are not eating the stuff like the wildlife is. Deer and moose are drawn to 2,4-D treated vegetation months after it is treated. This is for a couple of reasons, one being that depending on the formulation it may contain salt, which draws them in. Also being an auxin mimic it increases growth, and for a period of time actually increases the mineral content of the plant. The accelerated growth that uses up nutrients, and predisposes the plant to disease and starvation, is ultimately what kills the plant.

It is not a whole lot different in terms of what happens when animals eat it. It induces auto immune conditions, and the animal succumbs to disease, starvation, etc.


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## Lonetree

ultramagfan2000 said:


> It would not be the first time DWR biologists were told to inflate numbers. There is a reason many of the long time biologist retired as soon as they could in the 90's or just left the state to go to a more wildlife friendly state?


I miss a few of those guys.


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## Catherder

Igottabigone said:


> There is a new committee to try and revise the management plan for elk on the Wasatch Unit. *All the usual players are on said committee, even the Forest Service *(which is interesting to me). Anyway, this past week the committee met and *ALL but the DWR said the elk heard was suffering*. This includes conservation orgs, sportsmans, landowners, ranchers, etc. etc.


This is not a bad thing if you want the management changed. Remember that the Forest service and Agriculture have as big a say in setting population objectives as the DWR does. If they truly feel that and want something to change, they could do it, even without the DWR's blessing.

FWIW, I don't know why big AG/private landowners would favor more elk and objective numbers, but it would be good if they do. (Maybe revenue from premium landowner tags is threatened if the Wasatch elk population goes in the toilet?)


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## Lonetree

Lymphoma in dogs: In deer that have under bites and are in 2,4-D exposed areas, shrunken thymus, and dilated lymph vessels on the heart are common. 

Also, in declining moose in an area where sulfonylurea herbicides are used in forestry practices, you see copper deficiencies, and a diagnosis of "enviromentally induced non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetes". These moose also exhibited atrophied lymph nodes and vessels. 

The connection between thyroid disorders and 2,4-D is very solid. As is the connection between hypothyroidism and atrophied thymus, lymph nodes, and dilated lymphatic vessels. This is probably the step where an auto immune disorder like hypothyroidism, advances into another auto immune disorder such as diabetes. The links to a compromised lymphatic system and diabetes is also pretty solid.


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## Packout

Here are some thoughts for the original question-- since I'm not a molecular bio-physicist I will shy from the tangent. 

-Issue unlimited antlerless permits on private lands. 
-Reduce pressure on public lands herds.
-Rework the objectives so we are not counting migrating elk in January for the Herd Objective, while we hunt the kill the resident elk in Aug-December. That is the core problem-- Count elk that migrate in from other units (Uintas, etc) in January and find we have too many elk, then issue tags to kill year round resident elk before the migrating elk hit the winter range.


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## Lonetree

Packout said:


> Here are some thoughts for the original question-- since I'm not a molecular bio-physicist I will shy from the tangent.
> 
> -Issue unlimited antlerless permits on private lands.
> -Reduce pressure on public lands herds.
> -Rework the objectives so we are not counting migrating elk in January for the Herd Objective, while we hunt the kill the resident elk in Aug-December. That is the core problem-- Count elk that migrate in from other units (Uintas, etc) in January and find we have too many elk, then issue tags to kill year round resident elk before the migrating elk hit the winter range.


Expansion of cow tags for migratory herds before they migrate would be prudent as well. If the 10,000 elk are not resident, then they need to be hunted after they hit the winter range on the Wasatch, or before they migrate, on their summer and fall ranges.

I understand the resident verses migratory elk thing. In Northern Utah there are a couple of these scenarios where its thought that certain elk herds come from one place, when nothing could be further from the truth. Its much easier to observe a mass spring elk migrations than it is elk dribbling onto the winter range. Sometimes they go the other way from what some might expect.

Do we know where these summer?

I like my new title :shock:


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## goofy elk

I know one thing,

I'm glad there is now a commitee, specific to look at the Wasatch elk situation..:!:...

It will take years to rebuild the herd on the southern half of the unit,
But may-be, we now are at a starting point----------again.


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## #1DEER 1-I

goofy elk said:


> I know one thing,
> 
> I'm glad there is now a commitee, specific to look at the Wasatch elk situation..:!:...
> 
> It will take years to rebuild the herd on the southern half of the unit,
> But may-be, we now are at a starting point----------again.


If it isn't what the DWR claims then hopefully the issue can be fixed. I think cash flow is what's probably driving high cow tag numbers in our state and if we're that far over objective they're easily justified by handing out tags at $50 a pop. Personally I'm tired of cow hunts running from August to the end of January. By mid November all big ame hunts should be closed IMO. It puts pressure on deer elk and more during a critical time of survival.


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## Charina

#1DEER 1-I said:


> critical time of survival.


What day(s) of the year are not critical times for survival?


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## Mr Muleskinner

#1DEER 1-I said:


> If it isn't what the DWR claims then hopefully the issue can be fixed. I think cash flow is what's probably driving high cow tag numbers in our state and if we're that far over objective they're easily justified by handing out tags at $50 a pop. Personally I'm tired of cow hunts running from August to the end of January. By mid November all big ame hunts should be closed IMO. It puts pressure on deer elk and more during a critical time of survival.


and yet herds still thrive and are over objective in a majority of units. Especially the ones with proportionately high amount of cow tags. Go figure.


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## polarbear

I heard from someone that may or may not be "in the know" that the feds cut out invasive weed control funding this year. Can anyone confirm this?


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## LanceS4803

It appears clear that DWR is not conducting a valid count or altering the results.
But, why? What is to be gained by over reporting and issuing almost unlimited tags?
What is the end game?


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## #1DEER 1-I

Mr Muleskinner said:


> and yet herds still thrive and are over objective in a majority of units. Especially the ones with proportionately high amount of cow tags. Go figure.


Really? You don't think the fact these have been mild winters is why it hasent had an affect? A bad winter while burning elk and especially deers fat reserves clear until January is going to end up being very detrimental to fawn and calf survival . We've had no where near normal winters the past two years so we are seeing no where near normal results.

They post notices on there website throughout the winter, throw it in the shed huntig ethics courses, about how chasing or bothering wildlife during this time of year is bad for them, then they run hunts with hundreds of tags clear through that same season as well as run them ragged with helicopters. Must be good to be a hypocritical government agency.


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## #1DEER 1-I

LanceS4803 said:


> It appears clear that DWR is not conducting a valid count or altering the results.
> But, why? What is to be gained by over reporting and issuing almost unlimited tags?
> What is the end game?


$$$ off of tags could be a leanings point.


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## polarbear

I don't think there is an "end game". I think the DWR is confused (as we all are) about why their winter counts do not reflect what is being seen in hunter success and hunter reports. It seems that some are implying that the DWR sells more tags to make more money for themselves. They could sell a million tags, and employees wouldn't see another dime. All the revenue from revenue producing agencies (some agencies offer a service and don't bring in any money) goes into the state pot. Funds are then allocated to all state agencies as deemed appropriate by the state. To imply that a biologist inflating his count numbers somehow affects his paycheck is confusing to me. 

Can population counts performed in the winter give misleading information if animals are moving to and from other units, private property, etc. (heaven forbid)? Absolutely. That's why the DWR just collared a bunch of elk on suspect units... to find out what's going on. As soon as elk start migrating back to summer range, we will start to get some answers. In the meantime, I would ask that we wait until then to attack people's integrity on a public internet forum. After all, why would they initiate such a study if they did not sincerely want answers or if they had something to hide... my two cents.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Mr Muleskinner said:


> and yet herds still thrive and are over objective in a majority of units. Especially the ones with proportionately high amount of cow tags. Go figure.


And as for herds thriving they're doing well because of weather, and weather will eventually hit a bump in the road. They are thriving in spite of the DWR not because of the DWR. And if the wasatch herd is thriving like the DWR claims, video tape the flight this year and prove you're counts are correct. Once in a while they should be accountable for their numbers. I'm not saying video every flight but let's see them prove those elk are there now that they've opened there mouth, I bet they'd be shoving there foot down it.


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## Mr Muleskinner

#1DEER 1-I said:


> And as for herds thriving they're doing well because of weather, and weather will eventually hit a bump in the road. They are thriving in spite of the DWR not because of the DWR. And if the wasatch herd is thriving like the DWR claims, video tape the flight this year and prove you're counts are correct. Once in a while they should be accountable for their numbers. I'm not saying video every flight but let's see them prove those elk are there now that they've opened there mouth, I bet they'd be shoving there foot down it.


Yes there will be a bump in the road and then a valley. it is ******* weather Einstein. It changes every day. The more you speak the more apparent it becomes that you actually know about as much as the average parrot.

Why don't you take a stab at telling all of us imbeciles (aside from Lonetree of course) precisely what the DWR is doing incorrectly. Not some general mumbo jumbo about how they need to use science or change their "failed policies" or show us some video of what we hope might be the mountain range that they are referring to....... but actually provide an original idea or at something in your own words that we can sink our teeth into and chew on for a moment.

Want to give it a rip or would you rather just have a cracker?


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## goofy elk

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Why don't you take a stab at telling all of us imbeciles (aside from Lonetree of course) precisely what the DWR is doing incorrectly.
> ?


As for the Wasatch elk---Basic math would be a very good place to start.


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## Mr Muleskinner

do you have helicopter video to provide Goofy or do most of your Polaroids come strictly from behind a spotting scope attached to the steering wheel?


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## goofy elk

Mr Muleskinner said:


> do you have helicopter video to provide Goofy or do most of your Polaroids come strictly from behind a spotting scope attached to the steering wheel?


LOL,
I've flown the Wasatch (an other units ) several times....

Thinking about chartering a plane up next week....
Going to fly my two boys over it, and the Nebo.

I'll post some "polariods" of bare hill sides if it makes ya feel better....


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## Kingfisher

here is a heli shot from last thursday of hobble creek... everyone happy?


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## Mr Muleskinner

goofy elk said:


> LOL,
> I've flown the Wasatch (an other units ) several times....
> 
> Thinking about chartering a plane up next week....
> Going to fly my two boys over it, and the Nebo.
> 
> I'll post some "polariods" of bare hill sides if it makes ya feel better....


I have flown it several times as well. I would hope there are still some bare hillsides. I bet a person can find many with elk on them as well. Even more if they like to get into canyons.

How many elk have you counted? What is your estimate?

Is there still enough to guide a hunter?


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## goofy elk

^^^^^^^ I quit giuding the Wasatch elk 3 years ago.... ^^^^

And I'd put the current herd size closer to 4k than the DWRs 10k....


And Kingfisher----NICE!-----See any elk?????????????????????


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## Lonetree

polarbear said:


> I heard from someone that may or may not be "in the know" that the feds cut out invasive weed control funding this year. Can anyone confirm this?


I can't confirm, but if you have anything else, PM me. That would be nothing but good news.

I said some time ago that we would see an increase of CWD, along with the set up for a decline. And we are seeing it.

There are some that suspect that what we are diagnosing as "chronic wasting disease" and calling a "transmissible spongiform encephalopathy" may NOT be. The similarities between copper deficiencies and molybdenosis induced wasting, is essentially indistinguishable from a TSE.

There are several other similarities, including an atrophied lymphatic system, insulin resistance(brain), and diabetes(shares the misfolded protein/prion etiology with TSEs)

In short, CWD had been around since the 1960s, but took of in the early 1990s, synchronous with our West wide herd declines, which all shared many similar symptoms, the big one being a copper deficiency. Many times this was accompanied by a selenium deficiency, but with blood tests this does not always show up. But in the cases where T4 levels were checked, in combination with other things, one can speculate.

With the current understanding of how "invasive weed control" has lead to the last 40 years of declines, specifically the last 20. Any cessation would be good.

I know some are tired of hearing any of this, but we are in the process of repeating all the same mistakes that were made 20 years ago.

The current understanding of the last 40 years is wrong on so many levels, its no wonder things are the way they are.


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## Kingfisher

nope... sorry, it was taken by a couple of my gus after measuring the hobble creek snow course with a little quad copter... really cool. i was on the north slope measuring snow at the time. east fork blacks fork, hayden fork, etc. just moose there.


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## Kingfisher

if you look in the bottom right, you can see them by the atvs...


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## Kingfisher

whoops bottom left.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Yes there will be a bump in the road and then a valley. it is ******* weather Einstein. It changes every day. The more you speak the more apparent it becomes that you actually know about as much as the average parrot.
> 
> Why don't you take a stab at telling all of us imbeciles (aside from Lonetree of course) precisely what the DWR is doing incorrectly. Not some general mumbo jumbo about how they need to use science or change their "failed policies" or show us some video of what we hope might be the mountain range that they are referring to....... but actually provide an original idea or at something in your own words that we can sink our teeth into and chew on for a moment.
> 
> Want to give it a rip or would you rather just have a cracker?


I'll stick with just this thread rather than generalize on topics we don't agree. I don't for the DWR credit because I think many times their numbers are ****, and there management is even further ****. The burden of proof doesn't lie on the one saying something doesn't exhist, the burden of proof lies on those making the claim that those 10,000 animals exhist and having nothing to back it up. I don't think the question is what can they do better, the question is when will our wildlife be what they are managing and not money or social pressures?


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I'll stick with just this thread rather than generalize on topics we don't agree. I don't for the DWR credit because I think many times their numbers are ****, and there management is even further ****. The burden of proof doesn't lie on the one saying something doesn't exhist, the burden of proof lies on those making the claim that those 10,000 animals exhist and having nothing to back it up. I don't think the question is what can they do better, the question is when will our wildlife be what they are managing and not money or social pressures?


You would have been money ahead just asking for a cracker.

Your question that wrapped it up was pure icing on the cake. Pure BS. You deserve a sunflower seed and a new beak stone.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Mr Muleskinner said:


> You would have been money ahead just asking for a cracker.
> 
> Your question that wrapped it up was pure icing on the cake. Pure BS. You deserve a sunflower seed and a new beak stone.


Really? Because the state has a great reputation of putting our natural resources before money and social pressured only they? Your social pressure is the fact that SFW's agendas and $$$ they front determine a lot of decisions made. All you've gotta do is look at the last couple decades and realize how much pressure that money and influence has had on wildlife management the farther we go along. I'm not blaming our biologists for the problems we are seeing. I'm blaming the pressures from every direction that influence the management of our wildlife. So don't misinterpret who I'm blaming.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

So now the biologists ARE doing their jobs? I am confused. The SFW is reason that there are not the 10,000 animals?

What was your complaint again?

Sounds like somebody needs some fresh water.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Mr Muleskinner said:


> So now the biologists ARE doing their jobs? I am confused. The SFW is reason that there are not the 10,000 animals?
> 
> What was your complaint again?
> 
> Sounds like somebody needs some fresh water.


I guess I got into discussing two seperate things but intertwining them. The 10,000 elk I believe is a bogus number from what hunters are seeing and we either need proof, or to know why or where those 10,000 elk are seen or are going. The collar study should yield good results.

The second argument is the fact that Utah wildlife are of big dollar signs. Over the past couple decades the pressure of the dollar signs is what is driving the influence and actions carried out and the management that we see in our state which is complete BS. Wildlife management should not be driven by social pressure and economic gain.


----------



## Lonetree




----------



## ultramagfan2000

So in asking for proof of the 10,000 elk we are in the wrong? I guess we are also just a bunch of Christians clutching our bibles and guns? We aren't ever aloud to question anything? Hmmmm I think I will not drink the Koolaid and question everything.


----------



## berrysblaster

Geez mule you are on a roll tonight...I'm cringing every time you post


----------



## Lonetree

ultramagfan2000 said:


> We aren't ever aloud to question anything?


You can, just quietly.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

I have no problem with anybody questioning anything. I just get a gut full of a few parrots in particular that repeat the same stuff over and over and over, all the while knowing that all they are really doing in life is repeating the same thing over and over and over.


----------



## polarbear

For what it's worth, I happened to glance at a hillside tonight in the wasatch unit and counted 37 bulls. I guess there are still a few around.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

well you didn't see 10,000 so it don't mean diddly


----------



## martymcfly73

I watch a herd of a hundred easily from my house. But that can't be since the herd is extinct. Most are cows...gasp!


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I have no problem with anybody questioning anything. I just get a gut full of a few parrots in particular that repeat the same stuff over and over and over, all the while knowing that all they are really doing in life is repeating the same thing over and over and over.


Th parrot is wildlife management the last few decades. We continue to do more of the same and fund useless, short term, ineffective strategies to managing our wildlife. We are right now funding by the millions coyote control and deer transplants that have been tried, tested, and proven ineffective over and over again, yet here we are wasting money and time. We are at a stand still in wildlife management and are stuck in the mud spinning our wheels . I refuse to give credit where credit is not due and I'll echo that over and over until I see our fish and game as well as our state stand up for affective, long term wildlife management that will work and be a sustainable proven way to manage our wildlife for future generations and not our present social and economical appeal. That is there job, not to give into those pressures that are now deciding how our wildlife are being managed, how the money is being spent, and where the average hunters world is heading.

Questioning a DWR that is implementig proven failed procedures and keeping us stuck in the past rather than moving forward because of social pressure is anything but absurd.


----------



## polarbear

Mr Muleskinner said:


> well you didn't see 10,000 so it don't mean diddly


Very true :grin:


----------



## berrysblaster

The real question is are there any rabbits competing for food?


----------



## polarbear

None of the above mentioned management strategies were the DWR's idea.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish

These are the numbers from the yearly report, Green are above objective and red are below objective.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/annual_reports/13_bg_report.pdf

Unit, Objective, Winter Estimate 2013

1 Box Elder 675 700

2 Cache 2300 2200

3 Ogden 800 2000

4 Morgan-South Rich 3500 5000

5 East Canyon 1000 3000

6 Chalk Creek 2400 4200

7 Kamas 850 1100

8 North Slope Summit 300 850

8 North Slope West Daggett 1300 1600

8 North Slope Three Corners 500 600

9 South Slope Yellowstone 5500 7500

9 South Slope Vernal / Diamond Mountain 2500 2500

10 Book Cliffs 7500 4800

11 Nine Mile Anthro 700 900

11 Nine Mile Range Creek 1600 1550

12 San Rafael 0 25

13 La Sal 2500 2450

14 San Juan 1300 1100

15 Henry Mountains A Henry Mountains 0 25

16 Central Mountains Nebo 1450 1200

16 Central Mountains B Manti 12000 12300

17 Wasatch Mountains West 2600 3400

17 Wasatch Mountains Currant Creek 1200 3500

17 Wasatch Mountains Avintaquin 1600 1750

18 Oquirrh-Stansbury 900 850

19 West Desert 350 250

20 Southwest Desert 975 1250

21 Fillmore 1600 1350

22 Beaver 1050 1175

23 Monroe 1800 1300

24 Mt. Dutton 1500 1900

25 Plateau Fishlake / Thousand Lakes 5600 5600

25 Plateau Boulder 1500 1700

26 Kaiparowits Kaiparowits 25 25

27 Paunsaugunt 140 175

28 Panguitch Lake 1100 1100

29 Zion 300 350

30 Pine Valley 50 50

As many supposed elk that we have in other units across the state. We should be able to move some of the elk to some of the Units that are under the objective.

The DWR can use some of the AI money.


----------



## martymcfly73

berrysblaster said:


> The real question is are there any rabbits competing for food?


No, the real question is whether they have an over bite or an under bite. I couldn't tell through my scope although one seemed to have a hair lip and one bull looked like his scrotum was not normal size. More questions than answers.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish

Maybe the DWR should capture a few before the hunt and release them during the season. 

Like Pheasants


----------



## Lonetree

martymcfly73 said:


> No, the real question is whether they have an over bite or an under bite.


Some have under bites, no over bites reported so far, but you knew that.


----------



## Lonetree

:mrgreen: Yeah, elk transplants, that's good.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

polarbear said:


> None of the above mentioned management strategies were the DWR's idea.


No they weren't, but our state has allowed money and social pressure to overrule scientific studies and put money towards causes that will again prove inaffective. That's my point , the DWR continues to go along with it for reasons that are not what their duty is to the public.


----------



## Lonetree




----------



## berrysblaster

martymcfly73 said:


> No, the real question is whether they have an over bite or an under bite. I couldn't tell through my scope although one seemed to have a hair lip and one bull looked like his scrotum was not normal size. More questions than answers.


Mcfly we aren't smart enough to be asking those kinds of questions. Now bunny rabbits, that's something I can handle


----------



## Lonetree

berrysblaster said:


> Mcfly we aren't smart enough to be asking those kinds of questions. Now bunny rabbits, that's something I can handle


Most people here are absolutely smart enough to ask "those kinds of questions", you just choose not to.


----------



## Iron Bear

The Department of fish and game changed its name to department of wildlife. Shortly after this mass exodus of managers and senior biologist from the Utah F&G in the late 80s. When they got out of the deer business.


----------



## massmanute

Speaking of endocrine disruptors, the endocrine society is preparing a ~400 page report on this subject. I have not read the draft, but I know an endocrinologist who has, and the report contains some alarming information. I imagine it would be even more alarming to wildlife, if they could read, because they tend to be even more exposed to endocrine disruptors than humans.


----------



## goofy elk

Heres the problem with the Wasatch elk numbers .....

In 2010 the estamated herd was 7,700 ..
AND it looked like 7,700 ! ~ Elk were EVERYWERE on the unit !

Now , estamtated 10,000 ? Half the unit were there were 1,000s of elk , GONE NOW!?

Realy DWR ?

And yes, there are still areas were 40 bull winter, and a 100 head on Timp..

What about the 3,000 head that used to be south of Strawberry?
That whole area basicaly needs to be closed to elk hunting for a few years to recover.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

goofy elk said:


> Heres the problem with the Wasatch elk numbers .....
> 
> In 2010 the estamated herd was 7,700 ..
> AND it looked like 7,700 ! ~ Elk were EVERYWERE on the unit !
> 
> Now , estamtated 10,000 ? Half the unit were there were 1,000s of elk , GONE NOW!?
> 
> Realy DWR ?
> 
> And yes, there are still areas were 40 bull winter, and a 100 head on Timp..
> 
> What about the 3,000 head that used to be south of Strawberry?
> That whole area basicaly needs to be closed to elk hunting for a few years to recover.


I agree, seeing 100 head of elk doesn't prove there's 9,900 more of them. I see plenty of elk, that doesn't mean I take the numbers as correct just because they say so.


----------



## martymcfly73

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I agree, seeing 100 head of elk doesn't prove there's 9,900 more of them. I see plenty of elk, that doesn't mean I take the numbers as correct just because they say so.


It means there hasn't been a massacre like people are saying.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

martymcfly73 said:


> It means there hasn't been a massacre like people are saying.


100 elk is a far cry from the claims of the DWR. Yes there's breeding stock, and no the elk aren't all gone, but I can go see 300-400 cows in a night or more on a unit with a herd estimate of only about 3,000-4,000. If there's an estimated 10,000 elk on a unit it shouldn't be hard at all to scope up 500-1000 in a night if your trying. I understand seeing 40 bulls or 100 cows seems like a lot of elk, but it isn't the sheer mass of 1,000 or more. Do you believe the DWR's numbers are correct marty? I'm not trying to fight with you at this point just giving my opinion and wondering if you also think their number could be too high? Or do you think they are on track?


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

it means that somebody saw 100 head of elk.

Three years ago Goofy saw elk everywhere and it looked like there 7,700 of them.

Now he doesn't see them everywhere in the same places and it doesn't look the same. They are gone............even though many people have seen a lot of elk south of Strawberry. It just doesn't look like 7,700 anymore. It looks more like 3000-4000. Even though they are split up and spread out. There is a big difference between seeing elk that look like 10,000 spread out versus 7,7000 spread out (not to be mistaken for 7,500 elk which looks entirely different BTW) versus 3,000 to 4,000.

In a nut shell, when it is all boiled down.............. one thing is possibly certain. There may be somewhere between 100 and 10,000 elk running around depending on who you think has a better method of counting.


----------



## Vanilla

Mr Muleskinner said:


> In a nut shell, when it is all boiled down.............. one thing is possibly certain. There may be somewhere between 100 and 10,000 elk running around depending on who you think has a better method of counting.


I am willing to bet all I have that the number is somewhere between those two figures.

It's funny, because the last two years I didn't have much trouble finding elk south of Strawberry either preparing for and also during the muzzy hunts. We didn't see huge herds or thousands of elk, but we found elk fairly easily every day we were out. But the days we spent scouting and hunting above Hwy 40, and again on the late cow hunt this year...we hardly saw anything. In fact, there were multiple days of scouting and hunting that I didn't see a single elk up there. What does it mean? It's kind of like the double rainbow. I simply don't know...


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Mr Muleskinner said:


> it means that somebody saw 100 head of elk.
> 
> Three years ago Goofy saw elk everywhere and it looked like there 7,700 of them.
> 
> Now he doesn't see them everywhere in the same places and it doesn't look the same. They are gone............even though many people have seen a lot of elk south of Strawberry. It just doesn't look like 7,700 anymore. It looks more like 3000-4000. Even though they are split up and spread out. There is a big difference between seeing elk that look like 10,000 spread out versus 7,7000 spread out (not to be mistaken for 7,500 elk which looks entirely different BTW) versus 3,000 to 4,000.
> 
> In a nut shell, when it is all boiled down.............. one thing is possibly certain. There may be somewhere between 100 and 10,000 elk running around depending on who you think has a better method of counting.


Well between 100 and 10,000 sounds like a reasonable estimate to me. I don't always go to the same areas because you can't. I hunt Fishlake, Monroe, Beaver, and Pahvant. There are areas that have held tons of elk and now have very few to none, there are areas that always hold elk, and there are areas I've seen elk that aren't even worth going after. Elk aren't very hard to find if there's a decent amount of them on a unit. If there's 10,000 I just don't see how it can be that hard for so many people to find them. I would like to see a little accountability of where these elk they are counting are, which the collar study will help with that. Is there counting method more advanced and a better estimate, yes. But if the number is constantly growing you should notice it on the ground too, it's not like they're saying its grown a little, their numbers are talking a lot more elk.


----------



## goofy elk

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Three years ago Goofy saw elk everywhere and it looked like there 7,700 of them.


3 years ago>??????

How about 1977 thru 2010.........

Going EVERYWERE looking down everything for lion tracks, ALL WINTER!

You'll learn real fast how many animals are running around...

One thing I learned in all those years~~~~ Tracks dont lie....:!:....
Either they are there, OR there not...


----------



## Charina

goofy elk said:


> Going EVERYWERE


Have there always been so many roads in the area S. of the berry? Or have they always been as heavily used as they are now?

I haven't hunted the area, but my limited scouting of it lead me to believe I didn't want to hunt the area. Too few areas IMO for elk to get a comfortable distance away from vehicle traffic. By chance are hunters (and others) driving the elk out of the area? (until the traffic dies down and they mosey back in for the winter counts?)


----------



## NHS

Well, if it is just an under/over bite you are worried about, there is hardware available that will fix that up in no time.

Top of the page!!*()**()**()**()*


----------



## martymcfly73

#1DEER 1-I said:


> 100 elk is a far cry from the claims of the DWR. Yes there's breeding stock, and no the elk aren't all gone, but I can go see 300-400 cows in a night or more on a unit with a herd estimate of only about 3,000-4,000. If there's an estimated 10,000 elk on a unit it shouldn't be hard at all to scope up 500-1000 in a night if your trying. I understand seeing 40 bulls or 100 cows seems like a lot of elk, but it isn't the sheer mass of 1,000 or more. Do you believe the DWR's numbers are correct marty? I'm not trying to fight with you at this point just giving my opinion and wondering if you also think their number could be too high? Or do you think they are on track?


Exactly my point. I wasn't even trying. Imagine how many I could see if I actually made an effort? Hmmmm


----------



## martymcfly73

NHS said:


> Well, if it is just an under/over bite you are worried about, there is hardware available that will fix that up in no time.
> 
> Top of the page!!*()**()**()**()*


I wasn't aware the one eyed buck wore headgear. Too bad he disappeared. I'm curious to see if it helped the over/under bite.


----------



## Lonetree

NHS said:


> Well, if it is just an under/over bite you are worried about, there is hardware available that will fix that up in no time.
> 
> Top of the page!!*()**()**()**()*


That will only fix your jaw, there is no cure for the down regulation of pituitary function, and micro penis.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

I can tell you from what I have seen south of Strawberry. When you get down in those deep and nasty canyons they are just shoved full of elk during hunting season. Like Tex-O-Bob said it is a petting zoo. We have seen more elk than we can count. Never saw ANY other hunters though. They were all on the tops glassing


----------



## berrysblaster

I won't say much for fear of finding myself in a defamation of character suit, but IMO the numbers are not the problem the problem is the success rates. So what if there is 1 or 1 million elk, if your success rates show you aren't killing (managing) them in the numbers you need, you have a bigger problem than a few hunters that say they can or can't find elk...


----------



## Igottabigone

berrysblaster said:


> I won't say much for fear of finding myself in a defamation of character suit, but IMO the numbers are not the problem the problem is the success rates. So what if there is 1 or 1 million elk, if your success rates show you aren't killing (managing) them in the numbers you need, you have a bigger problem than a few hunters that say they can or can't find elk...


Please explain further Berry.


----------



## berrysblaster

2006-2010 average success rate for LE antlerless unit wide was 55% for 55-5700 head

2011-13 drops to 35% with 77-8900 head

The computer guesses how many permits to issue based off of the success rates from the past, if they aren't reliable then in effect the model is broken.

The story here is simply, regardless of who counted how many elk, we are currently in effective at managing them for whatever reason.

If we know, and I think 3 consecutive years is enough to know, that something isn't functioning correctly then it becomes inherently irresponsible to continue to use it.

There is a clear problem on this unit, it needs addressed and the collar study, committee, and concerned sportsmen are ample evidence of that.

This is simply my opinion based off my small understanding of wildlife management.


----------



## Vanilla

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I can tell you from what I have seen south of Strawberry. When you get down in those deep and nasty canyons they are just shoved full of elk during hunting season. Like Tex-O-Bob said it is a petting zoo. We have seen more elk than we can count. Never saw ANY other hunters though. They were all on the tops glassing


We only saw one deer hunter trying to score a decent muzzy buck down in one of the canyons we hunted. The rest of the people we saw driving in the distance or across ridges on the roads. Oh...and that is also where we found the elk, unfortunately. Some of those hikes really sucked!


----------



## 3arabians

My disclaimer: Ive never hunted the Wasatch unit for elk or deer. My only experience in that area is pulling cuts from strawberry. But i consider myself a seasoned elk hunter. Ive been following this thread with great interest. Skinner and TS30 got me thinking.....Is it possible with the wasatch being by far the most popular LE unit in the state based on application numbers and tags offered; the elk being so heavily pressured over the last 5-10 years have wised up and dove down to their favorite hell holes that they discovered most hunters dont care to go into? I know I have gazed into those types of canyons many times knowing most likely there will be elk in there and thought to myself....nah. I wise elk hunter once said "If you want a big bull there is no Hell Hole to deep. This is just my theory. Im intrigued to see what comes of this wasatch elk herd committee.


----------



## goofy elk

Almost laughable!!!!!

Those 'deepest' darkest' canyons are easly hiked from top to bottom
with a pick up driver!!!!!

Cant count how many times we've done it....

Not a drainage in Tie fork I havent hiked out, Or Indian creek, Or Willow creek,
All the waters, Both white waters----\

We've killed bears and elk right in the middle of those bad a$$ canyons for years.

And as for the roads queaston, there used to be alot more.....
Many have been closed the last 10 years......

You'd have to see were we put treestands over the last 20 years to believe it....:!:.........


----------



## hazmat

People who hunt this unit year and year out will be the first ones to tell you the numbers are way down and it is very concerning. people who browse the internet and tell people they just are not looking hard enough are the ones that probably have very little knowledge of the unit. It has been very well established that there is a problem why the hell do you think this committee is even a topic


----------



## martymcfly73

hazmat said:


> People who hunt this unit year and year out will be the first ones to tell you the numbers are way down and it is very concerning. people who browse the internet and tell people they just are not looking hard enough are the ones that probably have very little knowledge of the unit. It has been very well established that there is a problem why the hell do you think this committee is even a topic


Not everyone who hunts the unit thinks the sky is falling...


----------



## Lonetree

Question: What kind of habitat projects and improvements have been done in the last 3-4+ years in the area?


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

goofy elk said:


> Almost laughable!!!!!
> 
> Those 'deepest' darkest' canyons are easly hiked from top to bottom
> with a pick up driver!!!!!
> 
> Cant count how many times we've done it....
> 
> Not a drainage in Tie fork I havent hiked out, Or Indian creek, Or Willow creek,
> All the waters, Both white waters----\
> 
> We've killed bears and elk right in the middle of those bad a$$ canyons for years.
> 
> And as for the roads queaston, there used to be alot more.....
> Many have been closed the last 10 years......
> 
> You'd have to see were we put treestands over the last 20 years to believe it....:!:.........


Okay I am full of it. We haven't hunted it. We didn't see tons of elk. All we saw were bada$$es like you. That were pissed off because they didn't see anything. There were no elk.

I am not saying that there are 10,000 elk on the Wasatch but I would bet my life savings that there are far more 3000. You can think what you want. It doesn't matter to me. I don't care how many times you have hiked it. Your mug wasn't with us and many others that had success. It was funny because all of the guides were bragging about how good it was trying to sell a service and how they had them all pegged down. As soon as the hunt ends the guides cry that there are not any elk to hunt and the unit is not worth hunting any more.


----------



## hazmat

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Okay I am full of it. We haven't hunted it. We didn't see tons of elk. All we saw were bada$$es like you. That were pissed off because they didn't see anything. There were no elk.
> 
> I am not saying that there are 10,000 elk on the Wasatch but I would bet my life savings that there are far more 3000. You can think what you want. It doesn't matter to me. I don't care how many times you have hiked it. Your mug wasn't with us and many others that had success. It was funny because all of the guides were bragging about how good it was trying to sell a service and how they had them all pegged down. As soon as the hunt ends the guides cry that there are not any elk to hunt and the unit is not worth hunting any more.


I am not looking to get involved in your pissing contest you are having on here. But from what I have seen. Keep in mind I live in the heart of the unit for the most part and I am up there hiking gassing hell even flying over the unit quite a bit I can guarantee you the numbers are crap. I am glad you guys got on some elk kudos you are a master elksman . But to the guy who hunts it one week out of the year and just so happened to get lucky abd be at the right place at the right time to bag his cow. Then come on here and say the unit is in great shape pull your head out of you know where


----------



## goofy elk

Skinner, once again, I'm not saying theres " not any elk to hunt" ..

Once again, I haven't " guided '" on the Wasatch for three years now ...

I do have 50 years of memories on this unit....starting before there even were elk on this unit!!!!!!!!

I have, over the years, seen 19 elk harvested from the Wasatch unit...

And, I have over the last 4 years, seen a huge decline in overall elk numbers on this unit...

Are we clear?


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

hazmat said:


> I am not looking to get involved in your pissing contest you are having on here. But from what I have seen. Keep in mind I live in the heart of the unit for the most part and I am up there hiking gassing hell even flying over the unit quite a bit I can guarantee you the numbers are crap. I am glad you guys got on some elk kudos you are a master elksman . But to the guy who hunts it one week out of the year and just so happened to get lucky abd be at the right place at the right time to bag his cow. Then come on here and say the unit is in great shape pull your head out of you know where


Don't get involved then.

I am not a "master elksman". Never claimed to be.

You can't guarantee diddly squat.

I never said the unit is in great shape.

Glad you got it all figured out.......how many elk are there say within 10-20%?

Take a grammar class.


----------



## hazmat

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Don't get involved then.
> 
> I am not a "master elksman". Never claimed to be.
> 
> You can't guarantee diddly squat.
> 
> I never said the unit is in great shape.
> 
> Glad you got it all figured out.......how many elk are there say within 10-20%?
> 
> Take a grammar class.


Keep telling us how good of shape the unit is in from your home in salt lake. Meanwhile people who know it way better then you ever will . Will keep telling you the truth.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Not everything I said was referring to you Goofy. I know you have not guided on the unit in three years.

I have a very hard time seeing how guys can estimate the herd on a unit without a helicopter. I have flown the Wasatch many times just earning my pilots license it is no way to count elk. On the ground? Forget it.

If it were not for the numbers that are put out by the DWR it would be a crap shoot at best. You guys that think you can head count based upon time on foot or driving the roads crack me up. Most of the elk are gone before you even knew they were there. Counting elk based upon tracks in the snow. That is funny as well. Combine all of those with it being the size of unit it is.......priceless.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

hazmat said:


> Keep telling us how good of shape the unit is in from your home in salt lake. Meanwhile people who know it way better then you ever will . Will keep telling you the truth.


there you go again putting words in my mouth.

You may want to take a reading class as well.


----------



## goofy elk

^^^^ Dude, come spend a week with me..You'll learn a thing or two..^^^^^^


----------



## Vanilla

This summer we happened upon a good number of elk in Willow Creek. Day before the muzzy hunt we saw less, but still some elk. Day 6 of hunt went back in to see if we could find a nice bull we saw the previous week, but didn't find him. We did find a pretty decent 5x5 and some other elk though. 

These weren't huge herds. In the rut in Willow I think the most cows/calves we saw with a bull was 12-15. The other area where we focused most of our efforts we saw a bull running about 20-25 cows. Most bulls had around 10, or less. 2013 season we saw a lot more cows than we did 2014 season. Weren't in exactly the same areas, but similar general regions. From stories I've herd not only on this forum, but from people I know that have hunted it for a long time, multiple herds of 30-50 in a drainage with multiple herd bulls running their cows were fairly common. I haven't witnessed that the last 2 years. 

Basically, my position is in the middle. I believe that if you look around on the Wasatch you will find elk. (Unless you have a late season cow tag.) But I don't buy for a second that the number is 10,000 based upon my limited experience. And I do think that changes are needed. Like has been said, with success rates falling like crazy, it can't just be that hunters today don't know where to look.


----------



## Lonetree

:mrgreen:


----------



## Vanilla

goofy elk said:


> ^^^^ Dude, come spend a week with me..You'll learn a thing or two..^^^^^^


I know this wasn't said to me, but I'd actually LOVE to do this, Goof. Not sure I could keep up with you. It might have to be more like a weekend than a week, though. Some of us gotta work! ;-)


----------



## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> :mrgreen:


That's your best post in a long time LT. 

.


----------



## goofy elk

TS30 said:


> I know this wasn't said to me, but I'd actually LOVE to do this, Goof. Not sure I could keep up with you. It might have to be more like a weekend than a week, though. Some of us gotta work! ;-)


Honestly, your more than welcome to come jump in my truck and go....

I'm on the mountain, somewere, every day.......


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

not much of a fan of riding around in trucks looking for wildlife Goofy but thanks.

You guys have a good rest of the week and weekend.


----------



## martymcfly73

hazmat said:


> Keep telling us how good of shape the unit is in from your home in salt lake. Meanwhile people who know it way better then you ever will . Will keep telling you the truth.


I live in the unit. I spend 95% of my time on the unit. So don't generalize. I don't agree with you guys who say the sky is falling. I watch elk on the unit from my porch.


----------



## berrysblaster

I'm kinda fuzzy on why it's gotta be so testy?? I don't agree with people who say the unit is in good shape. Doesn't mean I gotta take shots at a guys reasons for his opinions...


----------



## martymcfly73

goofy elk said:


> ^^^^ Dude, come spend a week with me..You'll learn a thing or two..^^^^^^


We all will right? You've taught me all I need to know about you. I bow at your feet oh great mighty hunter and killer of beasts.


----------



## Lonetree

"Question: What kind of habitat projects and improvements have been done in the last 3-4+ years in the area?"--Me

Never mind I found the answer. 

From: http://utahcbcp.org/files/uploads/strawberry/SVARM2010update.pdf
"8. Strategy: Minimize impacts of noxious and invasive weeds.
 
8.1. Action: Identify areas where noxious/invasive weeds are encroaching on sage- grouse habitat
 
8.2. Action: Treat areas where noxious/invasive weeds and non-desirable introduced species (e.g. smooth brome) have become, or are at risk of becoming, a factor in sage-grouse habitat loss or fragmentation.
 
8.3. Action: Work with existing weed management programs to incorporate sage-grouse habitat needs. 

8.4. Action: Identify large areas of noxious/invasive weeds and non-desirable introduced species (e.g. smooth brome), that are not meeting sage-grouse habitat needs and reseed where appropriate.
 
8.5. Action: Manage burned areas, transportation, utility, and pipeline corridors, and  
vegetation treatments to minimize undesirable vegetation where possible. 
 
8.6. Action: Work with County weed board to increase awareness of weed problems in sage-grouse and other important wildlife habitat.

Through UPCD, SVARM continued the second phase of the Wallsburg knapweed project, mapping and spraying approximately 920 acres, County weed management continues to spray and monitor musk thistle on the shoreline and at the Trout Creek site. In theNortheastern Region, UWDR treats their property (formally Alan Smith's land) as needed, aswell as in the Currant Creek area. Additional coordination in those areas with county weed management will be explored in the future." 

And from Here: http://utahcbcp.org/files/uploads/strawberry/SVARM2011report.pdf

"The UDWR, Wasatch County, and the USFS continue to coordinate on various properties in the area to control weeds. The Trout Creek project has ongoing musk thistle concerns which are jointly addressed by all three partners. This year, the county has $86,000 from Title 2 monies for weed management that can be used to help protect the state's investment in habitat treatments for sage-grouse, including spot treatments for weeds inside habitattreatment areas"

So much of this really got under way in ~2011. The below images show sagebrush removal near Strawberry before and after 2011. 

The entire Southern border of this unit has been sprayed with Herbicides, that total in the square miles of area sprayed. This started in 2011, and is ongoing. 

And thousands of acres in the heart of it have been subjected to increased herbicide use of the last several years.



















I'm sure the two are not connected. Although it does sorta resemble a few other things I've seen. I mean a sudden 30%-70% population decline over a several year period, in conjunction with increased, and targeted herbicide use, does sound vaguely familiar for some reason.  

Naahh! couldn't possibly be a connection.

Lots of elk before large scale herbicide use, not lots of elk after large scale herbicide use?


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

martymcfly73 said:


> I live in the unit. I spend 95% of my time on the unit. So don't generalize. I don't agree with you guys who say the sky is falling. I watch elk on the unit from my porch.


Marty you never answered my earlier question, you continue to defend elk numbers on the unit, do you think the estimate of 10,000 is a reliable estimate?


----------



## martymcfly73

No I don't think there are 10k elk. The unit is large enough for that many. My blind ass guess would be 4-6k.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

martymcfly73 said:


> No I don't think there are 10k elk. The unit is large enough for that many. My blind ass guess would be 4-6k.


Okay then why would we want to continue tagging the hel out of it? It's plenty big and good of unit for 10,000 elk, and I think it would be good to raise unit objectives across the state a little. Yes there's elk on the unit I'm sure, but I think you can better balance opportunity and over tagging on the unit.


----------



## duckdog1us

i think you are forgeting the size of the unit it goes to I-80 all the extendrd is in this count all of park city all of timp there is 300 to 500 on the point of the mountian that is all city limits and can be hunted alpine A.F. canyon you are only looking at half the unit but i do agree these cow tags need to stop


----------



## Igottabigone

After following and reading everybody's posts, it appears that ALL are in agreement that the unit does NOT hold the number of elk the DWR says it does. That is the whole point of this thread. I've hunted the unit since I could walk and, like many others, have seen substantial decline in elk numbers. The decline in cows on the unit far exceeds the decline of bulls. That's the problem. The bull we killed last year was rutting two cows and a calf with three other smaller bulls in the area. To continue to issue the number of cow tags on the unit from August to December will decimate the herd. No cows mean no calves. No calves mean no recruitment. No recruitment means herd crash.


----------



## Vanilla

Lonetree, I don't ever put much thought into anything you post, because as you have told everyone else that has ever existed besides you...the rest of us are just too dumb to understand your higher way of thinking. I barely know how to read. I am, however, good at looking at picture books. Your satellite images seem like comparing apples to oranges. One is clearly taken in the heart of the green growing season, the other is clearly not. Doesn't seem like a fair representation, if you are concerned with accuracy. I'm not sure that you are. 

I know exactly where this is, as does anyone else who has ever been to Strawberry fishing or hunted the area around it to the south. This is a huge sagebrush flat that goes up to the mountain. I packed an elk across it just to the south of where your picture stops in 2013. Just to the east of it there were a lot of elk this year. A lot. Darn things were smart. But they were there. (There is also a ton of sage brush in that flat still.)


----------



## goofy elk

Igottabigone said:


> After following and reading everybody's posts, it appears that ALL are in agreement that the unit does NOT hold the number of elk the DWR says it does. That is the whole point of this thread. I've hunted the unit since I could walk and, like many others, have seen substantial decline in elk numbers. The decline in cows on the unit far exceeds the decline of bulls. That's the problem. The bull we killed last year was rutting two cows and a calf with three other smaller bulls in the area. To continue to issue the number of cow tags on the unit from August to December will decimate the herd. No cows mean no calves. No calves mean no recruitment. No recruitment means herd crash.


Completely, 100% spot on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For anyone wanting to read some interesting coments starting 3 years ago...

look at this : http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/37096-wasatch-elk-too-many-cow-permits.html

Some saw this coming for awhile now, some didn't, and some still dont..
But a large percent of Wasatch hunters are now realizing this problem.


----------



## Charina

Igottabigone said:


> There is a new committee to try and revise the management plan for elk on the Wasatch Unit. All the usual players are on said committee, even the Forest Service (which is interesting to me). Anyway, this past week the committee met and ALL but the DWR said the elk heard was suffering. This includes conservation orgs, sportsmans, landowners, ranchers, etc. etc.
> 
> However, the DWR apparently believes the Wasatch elk numbers are currently growing. WTF? Covey and Dale the biologists for the DWR estimate the heard [sic] numbers at 10,000 elk.


 Was this another one of those napkin-agenda meetings?

There has been 129 posts. Not one bit of solid information that I have seen. Conjecture, speculation, observations, etc, etc, etc. So many comment on the DWR estimate, but has one concerned person looked into why the estimate is at the level it is? Until I see otherwise, I'll give the DWR the benefit of the doubt and consider that they have more than a napkin to back up the estimate.

All this pissing and moaning isn't of much value without considering more fully the details of why the estimate is what it is.


----------



## Lonetree

TS30 said:


> Lonetree, I don't ever put much thought into anything you post, because as you have told everyone else that has ever existed besides you...the rest of us are just too dumb to understand your higher way of thinking. I barely know how to read. I am, however, good at looking at picture books. Your satellite images seem like comparing apples to oranges. One is clearly taken in the heart of the green growing season, the other is clearly not. Doesn't seem like a fair representation, if you are concerned with accuracy. I'm not sure that you are.
> 
> I know exactly where this is, as does anyone else who has ever been to Strawberry fishing or hunted the area around it to the south. This is a huge sagebrush flat that goes up to the mountain. I packed an elk across it just to the south of where your picture stops in 2013. Just to the east of it there were a lot of elk this year. A lot. Darn things were smart. But they were there. (There is also a ton of sage brush in that flat still.)


 The point is that there was a ton removed, and what has accompanied that removal, is a huge uptick in herbicide use in the area. An area, that as you have said is frequented by elk.

When the sage brush is removed, and the forbs and grasses move in, the use of these areas by elk will increase as well. All the while the area is being treated with herbicides. They were pulling thistle by hand in 2008, but switched up to chemical treatment in 2011. Herbicide treated thistle will be targeted by elk and other animals.

And that is just this one "habitat improvement". It does not include the square miles of treated power lines, or the 920 acres of Wallsburg spraying, or the many other "habitat improvements" in the area and the herbicide use that goes with them, but did not exist prior to 2011.

Find me another elk unit with that level of sudden and increased herbicide use, that is not showing declines. Everyone says there was lots of elk prior to the spraying, now there is not.


----------



## Lonetree

But then again, maybe there is 10,000 elk hiding on the unit, and the treating of multiple square miles with several different herbicides that have been correlated to other wildlife declines, has had no impact on the unit. Despite the "alleged" reduction of elk occurring synchronous with herbicide use onset and continuation.

Goofy, in all seriousness, I'd like to take a drive and/or hike with you. I'll buy lunch and pay for gas, I've watched your posts on this over the years, and even disagreed with you about it. I'm all ears at this point.


----------



## berrysblaster

Charina said:


> Was this another one of those napkin-agenda meetings?
> 
> There has been 129 posts. Not one bit of solid information that I have seen. Conjecture, speculation, observations, etc, etc, etc. So many comment on the DWR estimate, but has one concerned person looked into why the estimate is at the level it is? Until I see otherwise, I'll give the DWR the benefit of the doubt and consider that they have more than a napkin to back up the estimate.
> 
> All this pissing and moaning isn't of much value without considering more fully the details of why the estimate is what it is.


Apparently success rates as published by the DWR is not solid information huh?

This is a prime example of why arguing on the Internet is pointless, everyone has an opinion that disagrees with every other person even if it's the same. We are far more concerned with proving the other guy wrong than we are with reading and understanding what's being said.

IGOTTABIGONE said essentially the same thing when he read all the posts and realized everyone thought about the same thing...


----------



## jshuag

If the numbers are truly down, I will accept the responsibility to go elk hunting this year in behalf of all of those who have contributed to this thread.


----------



## Charina

berrysblaster said:


> This is a prime example of why arguing on the Internet is pointless


And that is exactly my point. A bunch of hot air for >100 posts without even looking into the basis of what everyone is arguing about. How can there be a relevant discussion without the details of what is being discussed? It's silliness!



berrysblaster said:


> Apparently success rates as published by the DWR is not solid information huh?


 Uhmm . . . I'm not sure where that came from. I didn't comment on it at all. The topic raised, and which I quoted, and which I commented on, was strictly about the estimate of 10K on the unit. Another example of why arguing on a forum is pointless?


----------



## Lonetree

Charina said:


> And that is exactly my point. A bunch of hot air for >100 posts without even looking into the basis of what everyone is arguing about. How can there be a relevant discussion without the details of what is being discussed? It's silliness!
> 
> Uhmm . . . I'm not sure where that came from. I didn't comment on it at all. The topic raised, and which I quoted, and which I commented on, was strictly about the estimate of 10K on the unit. Another example of why arguing on a forum is pointless?


Apparently, some people do have "details". And I'm not talking about just myself.

I'm not a elk guy, so I have not looked close at the elk, but I have looked at deer on that unit, and there are issues. And if guys that know it like the back of their hand, don't have details, then who does?

Want to tag along with me and Goofy?


----------



## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> ..........................
> 
> Goofy, in all seriousness, I'd like to take a drive and/or hike with you. I'll buy lunch and pay for gas, I've watched your posts on this over the years, and even disagreed with you about it. I'm all ears at this point.


Can I go?

I'll buy gas.

I could moderate.

I can provide antecdotal WY "facts" and "figures" irrelevant to the Wasatch Debacle debate.

How 'bout some Buffalo jerky?

.


----------



## Lonetree

wyogoob said:


> Can I go?
> 
> I'll buy gas.
> 
> I could moderate.
> 
> I can provide antecdotal WY "facts" and "figures" irrelevant to the Wasatch Debacle debate.
> 
> How 'bout some Buffalo jerky?
> 
> .


I'll come pick you up. 8)


----------



## goofy elk

Absolutly yes....

I already have plans for the rest of this week,
But after that , my sched-ule is pretty much open.


----------



## Lonetree

goofy elk said:


> Absolutly yes....
> 
> I already have plans for the rest of this week,
> But after that , my sched-ule is pretty much open.


Next week looks good, this last storm changed a planned work trip. I'll PM you.


----------



## Igottabigone

Charina said:


> And that is exactly my point. A bunch of hot air for >100 posts without even looking into the basis of what everyone is arguing about. How can there be a relevant discussion without the details of what is being discussed? It's silliness!
> 
> Uhmm . . . I'm not sure where that came from. I didn't comment on it at all. The topic raised, and which I quoted, and which I commented on, was strictly about the estimate of 10K on the unit. Another example of why arguing on a forum is pointless?


Charina,
We want to know where the elk are. We want the details. Other than the success rates, all we've heard from the DWR is that there are 10K head of elk on the unit. Hopefully, you've seen the other thread where I posted the contact information for the biologists. In there, I suggested that the question be asked as to where the elk are in hopes of getting an answer with specificity rather than the typical "they're in the trees" responses I've received in the past.

Edit: Top of Page - First time ever!


----------



## Charina

Lonetree said:


> Want to tag along with me and Goofy?


You, me, stuck in a truck for a day in the middle of nowhere, discussing the topics here? What could possibly go wrong?!?!

Actually I'd be interested, but I think I'll save my vacation days for summer scouting (targeting a new, unknown to me area) and fall hunting. Now, were goof going to spend the day on boulder, I'd be on it in a heartbeat.


----------



## Vanilla

Lonetree said:


> But then again, maybe there is 10,000 elk hiding on the unit, and the treating of multiple square miles with several different herbicides that have been correlated to other wildlife declines, has had no impact on the unit. Despite the "alleged" reduction of elk occurring synchronous with herbicide use onset and continuation.


You may be on to something, you may not. I don't know. We may be getting into a causation vs correlation problem as well. Because it was just before this time and over the last few years that they have increased tags and the killing of cows like crazy as well. Is one more the cause than the other? Again, I don't know.


----------



## Lonetree

Deer issues on the Wasatch unit. http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/98346-cwd-near-skyline.html#post996890

Obvious wasting condition(metabolic disorder), and even without a blood test, I'd put money on an a copper deficiency. You would see this with CWD, or any other metabolic, or auto immune disorder.

I have photos of other issues, from the very South end of the unit, but not nearly as bad. 2.5 year old spike, hoof issues, sloughing hair, and mild under bites. I don't have time to find or upload all those images. But the hooves look like these:

http://rutalocura.com/images/20141019_095209.jpg

http://rutalocura.com/images/20141019_164310.jpg


----------



## Lonetree

TS30 said:


> You may be on to something, you may not. I don't know. We may be getting into a causation vs correlation problem as well. Because it was just before this time and over the last few years that they have increased tags and the killing of cows like crazy as well. Is one more the cause than the other? Again, I don't know.


How does that play with low success rates?


----------



## Vanilla

If you are issuing more tags today than you were in 2010, yet there are less elk today than there were in 2010...logic seems to dictate where success rates will go. 

With the unlimited cow control tags on the unit this year (and in previous years), how many more total cow permits were issued by the Division than in 2010? I don't know the answer to that, but I'd like to know. 

The follow-up question to this would be how many more total cows were killed on the unit this past year than in 2010? Again, I don't know. But I'd like to know.


----------



## Charina

Dax was kind enough to provide timely information regarding the counts. The last count was in Feb 2013. In the flyovers, a total of 7,251 elk were physically counted. That put the post-2012 hunt estimate at 9,000, based on tested observed/actual ratios. 

For post 2013 and post 2014, estimates were made based on survival, harvest, and calf production "data". Not sure how much of that is data vs best estimates. The estimate for post 2013 is 8,800, and the estimate for post 2014 is 8,300.

So . . . The DWR is claiming 10K? Well, not quite. But, the DWR agrees with Goof!!! The numbers are going down!!! Imagine that. Sure wouldn't have believed that given all the hoopla in this thread. 

The kicker is . . . the objective for the unit is 5,400.


----------



## Lonetree

Another habitat "improvement" near Strawberry. These were done for sage grouse. Again, same time frame ~2011.

Its not that the sagebrush was removed that is so much the problem, but rather the resulting change in ecology. So you remove the sagebrush, and in some cases seed for grass and forbs. With the sagebrush removed the grass and forbs respond favorably to this change. Many invasive weeds(also grasses and forbs) do very well with change as well. So now you have to deal with "weeds", which means the introduction of herbicides into the mix. This resulting change in vegetation also brings in grazing animals such as elk, who will target treated vegetation, as will deer and moose.

Factor in that many sights were chosen for their South and East facing mild slopes(Less snow), and you can now expect winter use, as well as summer use of these sights, that would not have been utilized this way prior to 2011.

Its not just that the sage brush removed, or just that herbicides are used, but ultimately how the wildlife interact with and in this new ecology that ultimately matters most. These things are done, with targeted intent to have an impact on wildlife, and they do!

2011:









2013:









What I have put up is only 2 of several areas that have been manipulated.


----------



## Lonetree

Charina, what were the counts in October?


----------



## Charina

Lonetree said:


> Charina, what were the counts in October?


? If there were counts in October (why do you think they would they do winter counts in the hunt?), I am not aware of it. As I mentioned above, post 2014 hunt is an estimate, not a count.

This whole thread has been griping about estimates of 10K, as if the herd is increasing, when in fact, the opposite is true. If people have gripes about the hunts, the number of animals, then perhaps migration, objectives, or other factors should be griped about. But claiming that the estimates are showing increases and getting in a furor about it wasted too much of my attention.


----------



## Lonetree

Charina said:


> ? If there were counts in October (why do you think they would they do winter counts in the hunt?), I am not aware of it. As I mentioned above, post 2014 hunt is an estimate, not a count.
> 
> This whole thread has been griping about estimates of 10K, as if the herd is increasing, when in fact, the opposite is true. If people have gripes about the hunts, the number of animals, then perhaps migration, objectives, or other factors should be griped about. But claiming that the estimates are showing increases and getting in a furor about it wasted too much of my attention.


I am griping about other things besides the 10,000 number.

There is a lot that is agreed upon here, by many, its more a matter of over all perspective where it falls apart.

I asked about Oct numbers, because that is where people on the ground disagree with the DWR numbers. They can both be right, to a certain extent. You can see things from a plane in Feb that you can't see on the ground in Oct. But what has been seen on the ground in October has changed, there is a data disconnect and observed change, that does not match. Two different view points, supposedly the same vista.


----------



## wyoming2utah

goofy elk said:


> One thing I learned in all those years~~~~ Tracks dont lie....:!:....
> Either they are there, OR there not...


Hmmm....I have a couple pair of these. I like to wear them when I am fishing lesser known places (like 6th water)...


----------



## Lonetree

Awesome traction, who needs felt or aluminum?


----------



## PBH

W2U -- did you steal those from the DWR? I'll bet they had those sitting next to their flour sack bombs!!


----------



## wyoming2utah

Lonetree said:


> Awesome traction, who needs felt or aluminum?


The great thing about them is that it gives others the impression that elk were around and not a fisherman....and, they work pretty well on slippery rocks as well!

And, actuallly, PBH, that's how I got them....they were dropped from a plane in a flour sack bomb...I guess the DWR mistakenly put these shoes in the wrong bag!


----------



## Charina

Lonetree said:


> I asked about Oct numbers, because that is where people on the ground disagree with the DWR numbers. They can both be right, to a certain extent. You can see things from a plane in Feb that you can't see on the ground in Oct.


 I had already asked that followup question of Dax prior to seeing your comment here. I agree. Hence the comments somewhere above about migration, radio collar study, etc.


----------



## Lonetree

What season did they drop them?

And are those hooves from resident, or migratory elk?


----------



## wyoming2utah

They were dropped during the spike elk hunt....probably to scare all the spike elk away from hunters. I am guessing the shoes were accidentally placed in or near one of the flour sacks and that is how I ended up with them. Actually, the hooves are from non-resident elk--I am pretty sure they are Arizona elk hooves because they appeared cracked and dried a bit and the dry Arizona climate would probably lead to that!


----------



## Lonetree

Look at it like this: 

DWR winter counts are correct. Above objective but declining, based on winter counts.

Success rates are correct. Low.

Hunter observations in summer and fall are correct. Noticeably less elk.

And the elk did not head South of hwy 6.

This means numbers for the unit may be getting based on wintering migratory elk, which accounts for high tag allocation. Yet even with the high tag allocation, there is a low success rate(how does this compare to other cow elk success rates?). Which would make sense if the resident elk are in decline. 

You then have to account for the decline in resident elk. Which is where the low success rates(DWR numbers), and hunter observations do agree. 

But none of that accounts for the lower numbers.


----------



## Lonetree

wyoming2utah said:


> I am pretty sure they are Arizona elk hooves because they appeared cracked and dried a bit and the dry Arizona climate would probably lead to that!


If this involved the Lamina, then it was not climate. ;-)


----------



## goofy elk

Charina said:


> You, me, stuck in a truck for a day in the middle of nowhere, discussing the topics here? What could possibly go wrong?!?!
> 
> Actually I'd be interested, but I think I'll save my vacation days for summer scouting (targeting a new, unknown to me area) and fall hunting. Now, were goof going to spend the day on boulder, I'd be on it in a heartbeat.


I'm actually going to be on Boulder quite a bit this summer , early fall..

A couple times scouting and then the archery hunt to be precise.....

I have the Aquarius Ranger Guard station rented for the entire last week
of August....Will be useing this as camp command head quarters....8)....
Archery hunting deer and Antelope..

Going to be a bast!!!!! Stop by if your around!!!!
And the same invite to anyone on here-----Stop in and visit.


----------



## wyoming2utah

goofy elk said:


> I have the Aquarius Ranger Guard station rented for the entire last week
> of August....Will be useing this as camp command head quarters....8)....
> Archery hunting deer and Antelope..


Just curious....but, are you (or family) banking on drawing both of those tags?

I hunt deer and even elk in that general area about every August and September....


----------



## goofy elk

^^^^^ Yes we are, Kids can just buy the OTC archery deer tag..^^^
( if they dont draw )---I will draw the deer for sure.

And my oldest son, his buddy, and myself should all draw the archery antelope tags..
Going to be a blast!


----------



## Charina

Alright, a little information on what the DWR is doing to understand the situation (debacle).

As alluded to earlier in the thread, a study with gps collars has been started to understand elk movements. The intent of the study is to be able to more effectively direct harvest to the correct elk, in the correct places, and at the right time. 

I know most readers here understand it, but for the sake of those who might not, the objectives of the Wasatch, and the timing of the counts, are set to coincide with when the unit's carrying capacity is at its lowest - winter. In some ways it doesn't matter if there are zero elk on the unit all summer and fall. If there are more elk on it than it can support over the winter, habitat will be damaged, other wildlife will suffer, elk will starve, etc, etc. So the DWR sets an objective (which might be an arguable target, I don't have a clue on its appropriateness), and conducts periodic counts in the winter time.

The current plan is to collar 250 elk. 212 cows and 38 bulls. 100 have but put on this winter. Collars will be put on elk in east canyon, kamas, south slope, all three Wasatch subunits, manti, and nebo. The collars will automatically upload data each day for 6-7 years. 

That should provide some answers, eventually.


----------



## Lonetree

That will be very valuable information, no doubt, but will only solve for part of the equation. I'm not knocking the effort, its applauded.

Note: Everything gets counted in the winter, because that's the only time its really feasible. This is also why winter and spring mortality is so easy to observe, and why other things that occur through out the year are much harder to pin down.


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## Vanilla

Hey, the Heppies are finally here! Where you boys been? Ice fishing hasn't been that good this year...right?


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## wileywapati

Welcome to big game management for bonus points
And inches. 

I've only been screaming this for the last decade plus. 

Keep raising age objectives and killing cows... Yeah that's
The ticket. 

Carry on.


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## Lonetree

wileywapati said:


> Keep raising age objectives and killing cows...


In all actuality, that can be done when populations are increasing, which has been the case with many elk herds over the last 15+ years.

I'm not a proponent of trophy management, but if everything else is in order, and populations are on the rise, there is no immediate harm in it. That's not the case with just about every other species, besides elk.


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## tallbuck

I just heard from Dax (one of the biologist) in regards to the numbers on the wasatch and winter counts. I actually sent him an email in regards to the Wasatch Elk Committee....
Here is what he reported.

Thanks for your interest in the management of the Wasatch elk herd. You ask some really good questions.


I am attaching a map showing locations of anterless elk counted on our last survey flight in 2013, we used this count to come up with our post 2012 hunt population estimate. The size of the circles is relative to the number of elk observed in the group.


We did our last helicopter survey flight on the Wasatch in Feb. of 2013. On those flights we counted the following:


17aWest286317bCurrant Creek299217cAvintaquin139617Entire Wasatch Unit7251

I do have specific areas for the Currant Creek and Avintaquin sub-units, I know Central Region has these data for the West subunit as well.


MonthYearUnitArea# ElkFebruary201317bStarvation Bench, Blacktail Mountain187February201317bRabbit Gulch, East of 208138February201317bEast and North Tabby Mountain456February201317bSouth and West Tabby Mountain1521February201317bRed Creek to Currant Creek523February201317bCurrant Creek, Little Red Creek, Wildcat78February201317bSouth of 40, Currant Creek Mountain89February201317cSlab Canyon, Cow Hollow, Lion Hollow151February201317cAvintaquin, Walls, Horse Ridge19February201317cSam's Canyon, Dry Canyon, Upper Lake Canyon693February201317cLower Lake Canyon, Right Fork Indian Canyon305February201317cIndian Canyon, Emma Park228




After counting we use a sightablity adjustment of 80%. This adjustment is based on research and has been "ground truthed" on elk herds with known numbers that were then surveyed from the air. Pretty much it means that we recognize that we are missing some elk on our surveys, for every 80 elk we count we estimate that there are actually 100 elk out there. When you adjust the counted numbers for sightabilty we ended up with an estimated population for the entire Wasatch unit of about 9000 elk (I think 8900 was the official estimate after some rounding) post 2012 hunts. Research has shown that 80% sightabilty is actually a conservative estimate and sightabilty decreases with decreasing snow cover, thicker cover, elk group size and ruggedness of terrain. 


Each year after the hunts in 2013 and 2014 we factored in survival, harvest data and calf production to come up with updated population estimates. 


UnitPopulation ObjectivePost 2013 EstimatePost 2014 Estimate17a West26003400340017b Currant Creek12003500300017c Avintaquin160019001900Total Unit 17540088008300

The DWR is legally mandated to make recommendations to manage the unit to the population objectives in the approved management plan. Part of why we are involved in a Wasatch Elk committee is to review the population objectives in the plan and see if it would be appropriate and acceptable to make changes to the objectives. Regardless of what happens to the objectives, the DWR will have to continue to harvest substantial numbers of antlerless elk each year just to keep up with production.


I hope this answers some of your questions, I encourage you to stay involved and continue to provide feedback. The elk committee is comprised of landowners, grazers, land management agencies and sportsmen. There are reps from Utah Bowman's Association, RMEF, MDF, and SFW.


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## berrysblaster

Here's the map


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## Vanilla

Two thoughts on the map-

1-All those elk counted in those areas on Tabby Mtn WMA were not there in January 2015. Boots on ground and hours of glassing over multiple days in various parts of those circles...never saw a single cow. Of course there were elk there, but I didn't see any that weren't sporting head gear. 

2-no flights south of the Berry?


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## goofy elk

Very interesting Blaster ! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Look at all that country along Hwy 6 were 1000s of elk used to winnter...!...
Almost NOTHING from the air in 2013-----And still, nothing now.......


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

Igottabigone said:


> According to the DWR, 130 cows were killed last year unit wide. WTF? So with a thriving elk herd, according to the DWR, the success rates for cows was 4%


According to Adam Eakle "Last year the DWR issued just over sixty five hundred cow elk permits on the Wasatch. Hunters harvested one thousand four hundred and fifty elk, about a twenty two percent success rate."

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=33944360&nid=1112&title=ksl-outdoors-wasatch-elk-debate

Whose numbers are correct?


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## berrysblaster

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> According to Adam Eakle "Last year the DWR issued just over sixty five hundred cow elk permits on the Wasatch. Hunters harvested one thousand four hundred and fifty elk, about a twenty two percent success rate."
> 
> http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=33944360&nid=1112&title=ksl-outdoors-wasatch-elk-debate
> 
> Whose numbers are correct?


Neither, but Adams are close, I think the actual number was 28% I have the paper but not on me so this is off the top of my head, however 28% is dismal at best


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## TAK

Slab Canyon, Cow Hollow, Lion Hollow *151* February2013 17c Avintaquin, Walls, Horse Ridge *19* February2013 17c Sam's Canyon, Dry Canyon, Upper Lake Canyon *693* February 2013 17c Lower Lake Canyon, Right Fork Indian Canyon *305* February 201317c Indian Canyon, Emma Park *228
*

Thats a lot of Country to have so few Elk... -O,-


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