# Barnes TSX vs. TTSX



## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

Is there really any perfomance difference between the TSX bullet and the TTSX bullet? I know the one has a polymer tip and the other doesn't, but as far as the on/in game performance, does it matter? I want to try them in my son's 7mm-08 and I have only been able to find them in a Federal load with the TSX bullet. I saw some online with the tipped bullet but they cost more and I have to order them. So I'm wondering if there is enough difference to justify the wait time and extra cost. He will be using them on deer and elk if that matters.

Thanks


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

The tip can help initiate expansion and also increases BC just a tad......


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## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

Little to no difference at all. Bigger nose cavity on the TTSX after the tip is gone, expansion is a little more rapid. I shoot both in various cartridges and like them all. Tipped bullets no matter the brand are just a marketing ploy to appeal to more people.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Tried them both, hated them both.



gwailow said:


> Tipped bullets no matter the brand are just a marketing ploy to appeal to more people.


Not totally, plastic tipped bullets, will keep the tip sharper over lead tips that are misshandled, or chambered / ejected. I've had lead bullets get tips deformed occasionally.

-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I think there's alot more to plastic tip bullets than just a ploy. Here's what they do; Initiate expansion, prevent deformation, increase BC, provide a more uniform OAL for those who don't have the tools to measure on the ogive, color codes can identify bullet brand/caliber/type, provide a more uniform flight surface than either a lead tip or a meplat/hollowpoint bullet, and best of all they look really cool. When talking about bullet characteristics, I think that the plastic tip is the best invention since the boattail and is only overshadowed by the partition design. As far as the original question, I do prefer the TTSX because I think that it improves on the two biggest issues with the TSX......BC and expansion. Going from the TSX to the TTSX in my 25-06 Ackley with 100 grn bullets increased the BC from .336 to .357. At 500yds that equates to: 72 FPS more velocity, 66ft.lbs more energy, 1.23 in less drop, and 1.75 less drift in a 10mph wind. I'll take it.------------SS


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## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

I guess my main thought process is that if tipped bullets were really the cat's meow....then why does every single military in the world refuse to use them? I understand the reason for not using them in gas guns due to the potential of breaking off the tips...but bolt guns and snipers maybe, seems like that would be the perfect application. I do use them though and much of that is for the same reasons SS stated above...the color codes and they look cool.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

That's a great question about military use. I have very little knowlege on the subject, but I didn't think that the militaries used expansion type bullets, hence fmj's in most applications which act the same flight-wise as a plastic tip as they have a uniform hard metal tip. From what little knowlege I have, I think that snipers commonly use ammo designed as match with J4 style match bullets. Hopefully one of the many military guys on here can answer that question. Another interesting fact is the lack of plastic tips on most match bullets such as Berger, Matchking, etc. As far as I know, Hornaday is the only manufacturer that tops their J4 jacketed A-Max with a plastic tip. I see my benchrest friends going to great lengths to cut the tips of these hollow point bullets to "uniform" the meplat for more precision flight. Seems like a plastic tip could save them the trouble.......beyond me.---------SS


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## a_bow_nut (Feb 25, 2009)

I thought that the military's rules of engagement set what type of bullets where able to be used. Not sure though.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

My father spent 30 years in the Airforce. I did some work for the Airforce, (not enlisted). And I had the awesome pleasure of spending two twelve-hour days on an Airforce base shooting range with two increadable Airforce snipers. So.....I'm not an expert but I did have some knowedge rub off on me. I looked at my notes and the bullets that they were using in the .308 and the 300 Win Mags were M118 173gr FMJ, HSM Lapua 155gr Scenars and M852 Sierra MK 168gr. I remember the FMJ tips were painted red, orange and some blue. I'm not sure what the colors meant for the 30cal bullets but for 50 cal bullets it tells you if it's incidiary, tracer, depleated uranium ect.
Both the Scenars and the Sierra MK are hollow-point but are considered non-expanding by NATO. I know from shooting Sierra MKs out of my 338 Edge that they do indead expand in game animals.
That's some of what I've learned. Hopefully someone can add more.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Polymer tipped bullets are an answer to a problem that was solved over 80 years ago. So much for modern innovations in the world of guns and ammunition. "Modern Rifles" like the AR15, and AK47 were designed over 60 years ago. Many would say that the state of the art bolt action was designed at the end of the 19th century, and THE cutting edge of technology in the hand gun world turned 100 years old this year.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammun ... point.aspx


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

So would this TSX or TTSX be a good bullet for elk in a 7mm-08? Is there a better/another bullet I should use?

Thanks.


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## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

It would be a great option. I shoot the 150gr out of my 7RUM and I love it. Barnes loads the 120gr TTSX in their own line of loaded ammunition. Give it a try and I think you'll love it.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

gwailow said:


> I guess my main thought process is that if tipped bullets were really the cat's meow....then why does every single military in the world refuse to use them?


Our military, and that of most other countries, follow the dictates of Declaration III of the 1899 Hague Convention that states:
"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."
Signatories at the time were worried about the new smokeless powder/jacketed bullet technology and "dum-dum" expanding bullets being somehow "inhumane". Considering how the machinery of killing has increased in type and efficiency since then, it is a little bit of a Victorian oddity in today's world.

Therefore, since then, the military of the various world powers use FMJ bullets in order to comply. Interestingly, the U.S. is not a signatory to that Convention but complies anyway. Because the Sierra Matchking and other match bullets feature a tiny HP you would think that they wouldn't comply. However there was a domestic ruling stating that because that type wasn't _engineered_ to expand, they were allowable for sniper use by U.S. troops.

Plastic-tipped bullets that were pioneered by Nosler and made by just about everybody now are a plastic tip over a fairly large HP. The tip acts as a initiator as well as protecting and improving the streamlined characteristics of the bullet. Because the weight is usually farther back than in conventional lead-tip SP bullets, there seems to often be an accuracy gain. They also tend to often be "softer" and expand quicker - everything else being equal. Remington had an older, but similar idea in the Bronze Point, but the newer bullets work better and are more consistent.

FMJ bullets have an open base where the lead core is inserted (and close tip), while hunting bullets have a closed base (and open tip) and the lead core goes into the jacket from the front in forming. Because of this, FMJ bullets have metal to the tip. They are also a lot cheaper to make. A plastic tip would gain the military nothing in a non-expanding bullet. Some military FMJ bullets are designed to tumble when they strike flesh (not before as some people might tell you). This is a way around the Hague that makes the wound bigger. The British .303 and Soviet 5.45x39mm bullets are a couple of examples of this engineering.

Therefore, what the military does, or has to do - and what a hunter need in his bullet - are two separate things and need to be viewed in the proper perspective as apples-and-oranges.
Other than some FMJ bullets made to "save fur" in varmint calibers, the only FMJ-type bullets are in large caliber big game bullets for use on heavy, thick-skinned and boned animals like elephant where straight and ultra deep penetration is desired.

While the TTSX bullet might have some advantages over the TSX - over normal hunting distances for your caliber the TSX will get you by just fine for elk - it isn't any type of crisis.

I hope this explains things.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Great Info Frisco Pete!------------SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

With regard to military type bullets... its very simple. If you shoot and kill 1 person in combat you have removed 1 person from combat. You shoot and critically wound someone in combat you remove that person and all the people that need to stop and help that person, from combat. 1 shot with a FMJ could remove half a dozen people from battle.


-DallanC


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## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

Frisco Pete said:


> gwailow said:
> 
> 
> > I guess my main thought process is that if tipped bullets were really the cat's meow....then why does every single military in the world refuse to use them?
> ...


The interpretation of this is where it can get a little sticky..."expanding hollow points" the way this is written is for bullets of the "exploding" variety if you will...ie V-MAX, Varmint Grenade etc. It does not include bullets like the Matchking, tsx, etc.



DallanC said:


> With regard to military type bullets... its very simple. If you shoot and kill 1 person in combat you have removed 1 person from combat. You shoot and critically wound someone in combat you remove that person and all the people that need to stop and help that person, from combat. 1 shot with a FMJ could remove half a dozen people from battle.


This is true based on standard ammo which is not what this whole topic was about....I was referencing the snipers and special units were taking out specific targets is the main goal and precision is of extreme importance. Referencing rounds like Barnes TSX and ATK's SOST round neither which have a tip.


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