# Muzzy fliers



## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I recently switched to the lighter aerolite powerbelt (250 grain), the ones that have the red pointed tips. I could not get a good group, checked my scope and gun. Then I seated a round and the removed my breach plug and pulled out the bullet and my ram rod is creating a circular dented ring on the red plastic tip. I believe this is my problem. Has anyone else had this happen?


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I was shooting the 295 grian aerolite that had a harder tip material prior to this and it did not seem to have that problem.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have never experienced it but some bullet manufactures do at times have a specific bullet seating tip for the muzzle loader bullets so that you don't deform the tip. Now if this is because of the plastic tip or marketing ploy I don't know. 

Barnes is one of them for their different bullets.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Very well could be that the deformed tip is causing some strange aerodynamics. 

I shoot Barnes and use their proprietary bullet seating guide tool. Maybe you need something similar.

Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk


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## Buckfinder (May 23, 2009)

Lighter bullets do not shoot well in my gun at all. With heavier bullets I get much better groups.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I dont think it is the initial push into the barrel. I get the most resistance at the bottom of the barrel after the first shot, which requires me to slam the ram rod a couple times to fullfully seat. Any ideas on how to avoid this?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The correct way to seat a bullet into a muzzle loader is to seat it in one push and not to sit there and hammer on the bullet to get it to seat onto the powder charge. 

When I watch people with their muzzle loaders that take the ramrod and throw and bounce it off of the bullet I often wonder just what they are really trying to accomplish. 

With my 2 inline muzzle loaders I have no problems seating the bullet in one push once the bullet is started. One is a Thompson Center Triumph and the other is a CVA Accura. With the Triumph I mostly use Thor .501 250 or 300 grain bullets. With the Accura I am using the Barnes T-EZ in the blue sabot. I get great accuracy out of both rifles. 

The reason I use different bullets is that I won the Accura and will use it in Utah or where scopes are allowed, it didn't come with sights. I will use the Triumph mostly in Colorado where scopes and sabot-ed rounds are not allowed.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Wow... its 2020 and the dreaded "crud ring" is back! Nostalgia time 


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Depending on what muzzle loader you are shooting and type of ram rod I have found that the Thompson Center Palm saver works quite well for helping getting the bullet down in one push.


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

I think I will go pick one of those up. what do mean by crud ring?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

It was a ring of fouling that built up right where the projectile sits on the powder, making it hard to get the projectile past when loading.

Old school problems, solved decades ago... or so we thought. Initially it was caused by to powerful of 209 primers, the primer would go off and make a pressure wave that pushed the round forward a little, before the powder ignited.

Remington solved it with their special muzzleloader primers.


-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

.nm


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

Do u think that pusher will eliminate that ring I ccreate on the tip material?


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## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

So u r saying I should get some Remington 209 primers and not use my winchester 209 primers.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Slap That Quack said:


> Do u think that pusher will eliminate that ring I ccreate on the tip material?


I've never had a problem getting the bullet seated down on the powder with it and I use good old normal 209 primers that I use for loading shotguns. I figure that I have 5000 of them and they need to get used up.

On the palm saver it is quite pliable and you will feel the ramrod but it works. I carry one with me with primers in it and keep a spare in my black powder tool box that goes on the hunts with me.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I for one don't care for the brand of bullet your shooting. never could get them to shoot consistently. 


The only way to get rid of the "ring" is to take the barrel off and clean it good....I mean REAL GOOD. Back in the 80's I'd soak the barrels of my Hawkins in hot soapy water. 


If your going to use the Powerbelts, use a heavier bullet. 295gr. or more.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

With as soft as the Powerbelts are, apart from deforming the tip slamming down the ramrod could mess with the concentricity of the bullet. That or without a bullet seating jag it could be seated just a bit canted depending on how tight the fit is. 

That said, I'm more inclined to believe it is the switch in weight and your powder charge. I don't remember reading what gun you have, but it could be your twist. Did you try multiple different powder charges with the new bullet?


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Field and Stream magazine did some testing on deforming a bullet to see what would happen to accuracy. Not much was their findings:

https://www.fieldandstream.com/arti...-old-muzzleloader-rules-to-the-ultimate-test/


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

The #1 cause of fliers is usually an upset bullet as it leaves the bore.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> The #1 cause of fliers is usually an upset bullet as it leaves the bore.
> 
> -DallanC


So don't get your bullets upset. Talk to them nicely and let them have their way if it helps. Above all don't beat on their heads or make them go stand in a corner, that just gets them more upset. :mrgreen:


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I know a lot of people like the Powerbelt bullets. I never had good luck with them.

I now shoot the Federal premium muzzleloader bullet. I wouldn't hesitate to give them a try vs. the Powerbelt.


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## caddis8 (Sep 10, 2007)

A couple of questions- 

1- What gun are you using?
2- What powder are you using?

There is more to the story than just the bullet with muzzleloaders. I have an old CVA Wolf that shoots powerbelts just fine. My CVA Optima or Accura (I never remember) doesn't shoot them. It also didn't like pelleted powder for some reason. 

I started using Hornady SST with Blackhorn and accuracy got much better, like 1-2" groups. I'm sure there are combinations that work similarly, but that was my experience.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

From what I read in the OP, he does not have a crud ring issue. It’s a soft bullet/wrong bullet seater issue. 

That said, I doubt it’s that ring giving you flyers. I would try seating the bullet in one push as suggested, I would also try shooting a different bullet. 

I would recommend Hornsby XTP bullets. They are inexpensive and hammer deer and elk. My brother slammed a huge bull elk yesterday with the 300 gr. XTP mag and it literally knocked him off his feet. They do the same to deer.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I went out and shot mine the other day to check the scope, 3 out of 4 grouped good one dropped about 8 inches at 100 yards. They grouped 3 inches left and 2 inches high.

Went out this morning to do a final sight in while I had more time. 1st shot was 3 inches left and 2 inches high at 100 yards, moved it 12 clicks to the right and was right on and 2 inches high where I wanted it, third shot was about 10 inches left ?????? forth shot was 6 inches low, I checked the scope and it was tight, one of the sabots I picked up while walking to the target and one of the leaf was broke off and it felt real stiff, these were yellow TC sabots,I opened up a new box of black sabots and no flyers, everything was shooting and grouping good at 2 inches high at 100 yards.

I think some the yellow sabots had dried up over the year and were causing the flyers. 3 Triple 7 pellets and 250 grain Hornady bullets.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

silentstalker said:


> From what I read in the OP, he does not have a crud ring issue. It's a soft bullet/wrong bullet seater issue.


He stated:



> I get the most resistance at the bottom of the barrel after the first shot, which requires me to slam the ram rod a couple times to fullfully seat


As a full bore lead projectile "rubs off" some of the lead due to friction as it goes down the barrel, usually it gets EASIER to move the bullet the farther down the barrel it goes. In this case, its the opposite. Assuming the bore is uniform diameter the entire way down, that just leaves fouling.



> That said, I doubt it's that ring giving you flyers. I would try seating the bullet in one push as suggested, I would also try shooting a different bullet.


He said he cant seat it in 1 go. Smashing with the ramrod will definitely deform the tip. The linked article is interesting with the tests on deliberate bullet deformation.



> I would recommend Hornsby XTP bullets. They are inexpensive and hammer deer and elk. My brother slammed a huge bull elk yesterday with the 300 gr. XTP mag and it literally knocked him off his feet. They do the same to deer.


+10000000000 :mrgreen:

XTPs are the bomb. Accurate and devastating on game. IMO, there's really no reason to use anything else unless hunting some odd state with wierd regulations.

-DallanC


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

DallanC said:


> XTPs are the bomb. Accurate and devastating on game. IMO, there's really no reason to use anything else unless hunting some odd state with weird regulations.
> -DallanC


Yes! I got into muzzleloaders last year and wanted to shoot a bunch so after a ton of reading decided to go with the 44 CAL 300 grain XTP's in a green crush rib Harvester sabot. Super cheap to shoot and amazingly accurate! I am using the regular 300 grain XTP's and not the mags but I'm after deer. I have killed deer using this same bullet from my 44 mag pistol and they work well.

Save yourself some time, headache, and money...go with the XTP's!


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