# Whitetail doe



## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

I saw this little doe on the front this morning, I took the pic right after mule deer forky that was hanging out with her was finished with his business.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

That's awesome!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Honestly I don't know if I'm fine with whitetails in Utah or not yet..... it's kinda cool to think about and see, but I really would hate any more pressure being placed on mule deer.


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

that's in utah? crazy.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Sounds like she relieved a little pressure....at least from one mule deer.-----------SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Honestly I don't know if I'm fine with whitetails in Utah or not yet..... it's kinda cool to think about and see, but I really would hate any more pressure being placed on mule deer.


Every whitetail buck killed will be one less mulie buck killed. Other states have co-existing populations as does Canada. Claims of doom and gloom about competing species isn't exactly born out in fact. They get along just fine in alot of areas where population overlap. Here, as in other states I think whitetails will stick to the low country muleys to the high country with some overlap in the medium elevations.

Bring'em on.

-DallanC


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

35whelen said:


> that's in utah? crazy.


Yeah, south end of the Wasatch Front.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

35whelen said:


> that's in utah? crazy.


Whitetails have been in Cache county for 10 years now. Back in 2005 someone got a whitetail buck on a trail camera in Heber and posted it.

-DallanC


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

My brother killed a cross between a WT and a MD over 15 years ago in Box Elder Co. I will take a pic and post it. Funnier still is he'd decided to shoot his buck that year with his .45 pistola and ended up having this buck run past at 20 yards and so he shot it something like 4 times, one hit the horns and put a hole in it, and when the buck crashed it broke his main beam.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

bugchuker said:


> 35whelen said:
> 
> 
> > that's in utah? crazy.
> ...


I've seen a few on the middle provo outside of midway the last few years while fishing..


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## .54 (Sep 24, 2007)

That's awesome Bugchucker!!! Now I finally have a reason to buy those silly grunt calls and deer urine that Wal-Mart has been selling for years! Plus! I can can finally join Buckmasters and the prestigious North American Hunting Club that has been pestering me for all this time!

But seriously, we could use the influx of the whitetail species. It will inevitibaly take some pressure off of the muley's. Plus, the last time I tasted some bottled whitetail out of the northeast corner of Wyoming, it was some of the best deer I have ever eaten. I have no problem with them moving in.


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

I almost ran over a little buck on the way to Bear River Bird Refuge, bout 4 years ago. It was cool to see him bound across the road.

I've always been against them coming in. To be honest, that was based on nothing more than just not wanting them here. But there was a post up in this thread that just makes sense. The tag says "Deer"... not species specific. Maybe if there were a ton of ******'s here, the Muley's would be doing better. The elk are more competition for food than whitetail would be. The only real issue I can imagine would be winter range... It's running out enough as it is.


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## treedagain (Nov 21, 2009)

more deer the better....mulies or whitetails. i look at the river bottoms and cattail marshes all up and down the front and think how many whitetails they could hold. most states hunt them in nov and dec to catch the rut. that would be more opprotunity for all of us, even if it were a limited tag.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Trying not to sound stupid,but are these migrating here or transplanted :?:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Migrating.


-DallanC


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Fine bring on the whitetails lets transplant a few hundred of them and get herds started of them in northern, middle, and southern Utah.


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## Ton_Def (Dec 23, 2008)

treedagain said:


> more deer the better....mulies or whitetails. i look at the river bottoms and cattail marshes all up and down the front and think how many whitetails they could hold. most states hunt them in nov and dec to catch the rut. that would be more opprotunity for all of us, even if it were a limited tag.


Agreed. Opportunity is the number one complaint. Why not an additional hunt??


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I like the idea as well, but I know that the farmers would not be fans at all. I guess the response to their numbers increasing would be more depredation tags??


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Most farmers grow alot more complaints than crops. The guys in Idaho seem to manage somehow.-----SS


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

I'm not quite sure, but I think this is a white tail / mulie cross. My brother shot this near Tremonton a few years ago. I think they are growing in numbers up here in Northern Utah. We have seen a few last year as well. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
What does it look like to you???


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Hard to tell from the pic, but looks entirely possible. What did the tail look like?----------SS


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I would have to concur with the hybrid just based on face/nose color combined with the clearly single beam antlers. Over the years we have seen numerous accounts of these and they seem to mostly be in the Tremonton corridor or nearby.


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

Springville Shooter? said:


> What did the tail look like?


 It was a little different than one I've ever seen. It was a little bushier, but not quite like a white tail. 
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 
For me I have never really been around white tail all that much. How much inter breeding do they do? :?: Which is usually more dominant? :?:


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## treedagain (Nov 21, 2009)

normally it is a whitetail buck breeding a mulie doe.....the whitetails are alot more aggressive during breeding seasons


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Springville Shooter said:


> Most farmers grow alot more complaints than crops. The guys in Idaho seem to manage somehow.-----SS


AMEN!!!!!!!!


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Get out the d-CON and get these animals on Utah's un-protected list.


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## .54 (Sep 24, 2007)

10000ft. Just wondering what your objection is to having the added diversity of the whitetail species is? Is it because you believe they will crowd in on the winter range of the resident mule deer? Or is it perhaps another issue? (seriously curious, I am not baiting you)


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## RuttCrazed (Sep 7, 2007)

After hunting whitetails for the last 5 years I can understand why you don't want them in Utah, they are much smarter and harder to hunt than mule deer! You will not see a decent buck unless they are in rut, they don't get caught out in the open, they don't feed in clearings or bed in sagebrush, they are smart!

Rut


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

Most likely this is just an oddly formed mulie antler, but I found this in central utah and thought it was interesting how far forward the main beam goes.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

RuttCrazed said:


> After hunting whitetails for the last 5 years I can understand why you don't want them in Utah, they are much smarter and harder to hunt than mule deer! You will not see a decent buck unless they are in rut, they don't get caught out in the open, they don't feed in clearings or bed in sagebrush, they are smart!
> 
> Rut


+1000!

Witty......but oh so true.-------SS


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

DAMMIT, what dimensions do I need to resize my photo to?


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

> 10000ft. Just wondering what your objection is to having the added diversity of the whitetail species is? Is it because you believe they will crowd in on the winter range of the resident mule deer? Or is it perhaps another issue? (seriously curious, I am not baiting you)


.54 I don't have any biological evidence but how could they not compete? People say mule deer are at a higher elevation, sorry but I see mule deer year round at every elevation in Utah. I can't imagine that they wouldn't be competeing for much of he same winter browse. I also think they are a goofy looking animal, they truly have a rodant look to me. I wouldn't mount a "12 point" (one man's opinion).



> After hunting whitetails for the last 5 years I can understand why you don't want them in Utah, they are much smarter and harder to hunt than mule deer! You will not see a decent buck unless they are in rut, they don't get caught out in the open, they don't feed in clearings or bed in sagebrush, they are smart!


Rut, I can take you to places in Utah where mature bucks can be shot from the road and other places where you would be hard pressed to catch a glimps of a mature buck after a week of hard scouting and glassing. White tail are no diffrent, if I had a dime for every youtube clip I have watched of guys shooting mature white tail bucks out of tree stands, bucks standing in fields and walking around peoples houses I would be rich. You obviously went some where more rugged with more cover or where they have bee forced to get smarter and be more nocturnal. It's all a matter of terrain and preasure.

If Mulies are so much dumber and easier to hunt how come the theme of this whole forum is nobody sees or shoots big bucks any more?

Or maybe you are trying reverse psychology on us to get an easier species of deer introduced into the state because the mulies keep giving you the slip. -)O(-


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I think Utah should do everything in its power to keep whitetail deer out! They will undoubtedly not only compete, but help drive mule deer numbers even lower. Just an FYI...when a mule deer doe is bred by a whitetail buck, the offspring usually survives and does well. However, when a mule deer buck breeds a whitetail doe, the offspring doesn't survive very often. Kind of reminds me of Braveheart...if we can't get them out; we will breed them out!

some good info:
http://www.monstermuleys.com/cgi-bin/st ... l&tem=art1


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You do understand that mule deer are hybrids of Whitetails and Blacktails right? They've pretty much mapped out the evolution of them via DNA analysis. Some good info out there for those with Google skillz


-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

1000 ft, have you ever hunted, taken, or even seen whitetail deer in the wild? Have you ever visited the areas where populations overlap? I guess what I'm asking is if there is any basis to your strong position, or if it just reflects pure emotion?--------SS


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> 1000 ft, have you ever hunted, taken, or even seen whitetail deer in the wild? Have you ever visited the areas where populations overlap? I guess what I'm asking is if there is any basis to your strong position, or if it just reflects pure emotion?--------SS


Emotion? ? ? I seem to touch an emotional nerve with you every time I joke about getting out the d-CON or express my personal opinion of how inferior I feel they are in appearance to a mule deer.

In full disclosure I have a resident deer herd that passes through my property daily and I have seen a whitetail doe in the group often. I have not hunted white tail. I have visited a relative in Montana that hates Mulies because they pick on and chase off all the "mature whitetail bucks" that hang around their house. I have seen and observed whitetail in the wild in probably 15 diffrent states and three Canadian provinences. So. . . .I don't know if that qualifies me to have an opinion on them or not but I still think they are ugly and will impact our mule deer herds.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

I mean come on Springville Shooter, there is a reason you choose a muley as your profile picture over an ROUS.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

> I think Utah should do everything in its power to keep whitetail deer out! They will undoubtedly not only compete, but help drive mule deer numbers even lower.


So for discussion sake here - say that where whitetail do come and overlap mule deer, that they do out compete them. (something I doubt based on SO much evidence from other states) But anyway, say that they do in some places.

If the 200 mule deer are replaced by 400 whitetail deer, how is that bad for the hunter? Sure, the hunter would hunt whitetail instead of mule deer, but is that a bad thing? As habitats (good overlapping habitats) are more and more fragmented by chopping up of farms, whitetail tend to do better and mule deer not so much. So if the mule deer are going away, why not fill those gaps left vacant, with mule deer?


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

How about we add them to the small game license and put a limit of one a day (either sex) on them. 

My problem is this, I live in Oakley at 6,600 ft. I know someone who got permission from the DWR ten years ago to go shoot about five whitetail that had migrated up into our valley and were in the river bottoms. The white tail doe I have seen, as recent as a few months ago, spends most her day even another 1000 ft. above my house (7,600 ft.). All you whitetail lovers/supporters keep trying to sugar coat this and make it sound like the "overlap habbitat" would be in just low elevations in the marshes around the Great Salt Lake. There also seems to be conflicting studies and evidence to be so gung ho and ready to introduce a species that grows like a weed and other states are trying to beat back because they are so out of control.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Beating back so many deer, we just don't know how to deal with them. That is a problem Utah hasn't had in quite a while.

I am not a believer that whitetails will stay in the river bottoms. I've had too much experience with them in Montana. They'll occupy any elevation if the habitat conditions are present. 

I am a believer that our habitat conditions are changing. And many of the changes seem to favor whitetail more than they favor mule deer. So if the choices are no or fewer mule deer, or more whitetail, I'll take the more opportunity.


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

I always thought a whitetail's home range was smaller than a mule deer's. maybe that will have an impact on how fast they spread if they do get to utah in numbers. if you look at midwestern states with lots and lots of agriculture and coyotes as the only predator, whitetail are hunted heavily and they are still prolific. utah doesnt have the millions of acres of corn and soy beans or hardwood forests full of acorns. If whitetails moved in, it would probably be in small pockets and not in waves. They were harder than mule deer to hunt in iowa, but that was because of the thick cover and heavy pressure. even does were spooky and nocturnal year round except for cold snaps during the late winter. iowa had hunting from october to late january though, and nearly unlimited antlerless tags. I'm no biologist, but if i had to guess, I would think whitetail would not act that much differently than mule deer in utah with our hunting seasons


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

After going on my first ****** hunt this year in PA.....I am ALL for bringing them into Utah! OPPORTUNITY to hunt.....that is what I hear more than anything on this forum. I would be REALLY glad to have more opportunity to hunt...and them whiteys are fun as can be to hunt. I promise I will be hunting them EVERY year from here on out...be it in Utah or where ever I have to go!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

One problem with having whitetails in Utah is that they are going to be living in the farm lands on private property and not in the hills. Getting permission to hunt them will be about the same as getting permission to hunt ducks, geese, and pheasants if you can find them.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Critter said:


> One problem with having whitetails in Utah is that they are going to be living in the farm lands on private property and not in the hills. Getting permission to hunt them will be about the same as getting permission to hunt ducks, geese, and pheasants if you can find them.


This is a good point, but the positive that I see is that all the folks who own the private property will have to choose whether they want to hunt whitetails on the ranch, or muleys in the hills. Bottom line is that if everyone only gets one tag, any tags used to hunt whitetail anywhere will ease pressure from the muledeer. The pot could be sweetened more if two deer permits were offered to those hunting whitetail instead of mule deer.--------SS


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

10000ft. said:


> I mean come on Springville Shooter, there is a reason you choose a muley as your profile picture over an ROUS.


Mule deer are and always will be my favorite. That being said, variety is also nice and I have spent alot of time first hand in areas that have healthy populations of both species. I really believe that with much of the habitat in Utah we could enjoy mule deer at the levels we currently have plus the extra benefit of whitetail. I am not a biologist so all of my opinions are based on observations in similar habitats in Idaho, Oregon, and Montana. Bottom line is that I like to hunt, and would like to hunt with my kids and grandkids for a long time. I think we are joking with ourselves if we think that we have that kind of potential in the mule deer herds. -----------SS


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## Stunnerphil (Oct 3, 2012)

The way I see it whitetail deer just adds more opportunity to get a deer and for people who don't have time or money to hunt other states the chance to add a new species to their wall


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Whitetails get my vote! I enjoyed them during my time living in Texas and I would love to have them here in Utah. I've seen a few around the Bear River Valley this year.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Just read a short summary of a study done on white tail and mule deer in Colorado. I would love to have white tail deer here in Utah to increase opportunity for those who like to hunt deer but the study pointed out that winter range and summer range are in fact generally the same place for white tail deer where mule deer are migratory and also go through a transition of their rumen bacteria when coming off of spring and summer range onto the less nutritional winter ranges. While there are always exceptions, elevation also plays into the equation of Utah hosting white tails. The biggest issue for available habitat in both Utah and Colorado are centered around available habitat. In the eastern part of Colorado there is more open plains with agriculture to support white tails and their smaller home ranges as opposed to the higher elevation of the Rocky Mountain Range where change in elevation, food sources, and even competing species becomes an issue. Seasonal changes are part of the equation as well. Took some time to find it but its on the http://www.muledeerworkinggroup.com website.

If we can get some landowners to propagate them QDM programs are available and designed to help them expand. Just how much pressure do we want to put on our beloved mule deer where white tails will settle is going to be the question. I hope to get to hunt them within the next couple of years in Kansas.


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