# Red Creek outfitters!!



## Elkaddict (Mar 24, 2009)

I am pissed I witnessed hired help from red creek outfitters pushung elk up over the top from red creek into there private land! Bastards!!! 

What can I do? Has anyone else seen them do it before or heard of them doing it?


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## Size Matters (Dec 22, 2007)

I know it happens quite a bit I have seen Deseret try to push the elk back on there unfortunatly I dont think there is much you can do.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

Pictures...video...never happened if you can't prove it...Im not saying they did'nt but your claims mean **** if you can't prove it.


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## WHutchings (Jan 6, 2009)

Blah blah blah 2litl28 or whatever your name is. But anyway elkaddict that don't suprise me they did that cause if they see a big class bull on public ground that's worth to them 15,000 bucks than they would push it back to someone on private ground that can afford a tag like that. They don't give a rats a$$ about average joes that wait 15 years to draw a wasatch bull tag.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Contact the Vernal DWR ask to talk to Sean Davis or Mariann ??? Forgot her last name. An eye witness can be pretty good stuff.


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## tabbyhunter (Jul 8, 2009)

I am assuming this is the red creek right on/ By tabby? 
It doesnt surprise me.


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

I also think they are painting trees orange on state land. if you go to the gate on the north west end and look to the north west they have a pile of rocks to mark their property boundries but the trees are painted orange up to 200 yards in state land. at least that was the way it was a few years ago.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

I would be for calling the Forest Service/BLM and also the DWR.....


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

I am also pretty sure they took a backhoe and dug up parts off state land to close of some of the trails that used to lead into their land. thy sure don't have a problem calling the sheriff if anyone sets foot on their land. one more thing that turned me off of red creek outfitters I called and left many messages with the operator concerning antlerless elk hunting and he would never return my calls after 3 years I gave up if they don't want to call me back then I can only assume they don't want me to put in for a tag :twisted:


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## Elkaddict (Mar 24, 2009)

has anyone heard of them doing this the past couple of years?


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## Elkaddict (Mar 24, 2009)

were is there gate on the northwest end?


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## Igottabigone (Oct 4, 2007)

There is a Red Creek Outfitters that runs the cwmu up weber canyon on the Thousand Peaks Ranch property. Big Deer. Lots of them. Good herd of elk too. Moose, etc. Which red creek outfitters you talkin bout? This one? If so, I can totally see this happening because Whitney Reservoir and Moffitt Peak area border the cwmu. Oh yeah, Thousand Peaks Ranch blocks all public access to national forest property and the area I am referring to. Basterds!!

http://www.redcreekoutfitters.com/


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## Elkaddict (Mar 24, 2009)

they are in the red creek and current creek area...


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

So is this the outfit you're refering to?

http://www.tabbymountainranch.com/hunts.html


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

You should get a ninja suit, sneak onto their property at night and chase the elk back on public land. :lol:


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## SureShot (Oct 2, 2007)

If you have a ninja suit, you don't have to wait until dark.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

Size Matters said:


> I know it happens quite a bit I have seen Deseret try to push the elk back on there unfortunatly I dont think there is much you can do.


 `Darn you size matters was that you turning all them 400 in bulls back on me? :shock:


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

This is a blanket statement.....If I offend you.....Oh well.....

YET ANOTHER PROBLEM with outfitters. However, I'm thinking there isn't anything illegal about the pushing of the animals. At least they aren't taking people off of their land to hunt on public land like a handful of CWMU operators/guides I've heard of in this state. 

What happened to the good old fashioned DIY hunts? No fences/fair chase seems to becoming a thing of the past. SAD SAD SAD.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

If any of you guys(blanket statement) think that any private land, be it a cwmu or not have to resort to chasing wildlife on to their property! excuse me I'm lost. Generally what happens is DWR opens the general hunting season! I think wildlife as a rule goes to the least amount of hunting pressure. So tell me why, anybody would have to resort to herding wildlife. :shock:


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Ya think this ever happened down on Johnson Ranch Property by Fishlake?


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## Petersen (Sep 7, 2007)

As a practical matter, unless there's a hunter on the other side of the property line waiting to take a shot, would it really accomplish much for a land owner to herd elk onto his property. I mean, they'll just wander off again. Were these instances during the hunt?


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

That is a new one to me. I have seen and heard admissions of guys doing this on private land to push them back on to public land. I think that would make more sense as others mentioned that the herds would more commonly leave the higher pressure public area to the lower pressure private area; a lot like osmosis.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

Harrassment of wildlife is illegal. If you can prove it with video, you ve got something. Otherwise file a complaint and maybe other complaints will stack up against them.


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

duckhunter1096 said:


> What happened to the good old fashioned DIY hunts? No fences/fair chase seems to becoming a thing of the past. SAD SAD SAD.


 There are millions of acres of public ground in the west with no fences(at least you can get over most of them if you do it safely) that are fair chase, don't you read Eastman's Hunting magazine, the king of DYI hunting, I do it every year!


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm a DIY hunter as well. That's what I was getting at.

I have also heard stories of guides/outfitters doing damage to other vehicles in canyons that are "theirs".


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## skull krazy (Jan 5, 2008)

Size Matters said:


> I know it happens quite a bit I have seen Deseret try to push the elk back on there unfortunately I don't think there is much you can do.


You have got to be joking :roll: 
I have worked on Deseret for many years and assure you there is NO need to push elk back ON the property, that's absurd!
There are more elk on Deseret property than all the surrounding land combined, why in the hell would there be a need for this activity?
My guess is what you saw were "border hunters" (hunters hunting Deserets borders) it happens every day during the season. 
That ranch is the states elk sanctuary, there are more biologists and game warden there than anywhere else in this state. To say anything "fishy" goes on up there by it's people is totally absurd. -_O-


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Thats probally why you seldom to never see a warden down south. To busy protecting private interest,,


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

Duckhunter I'm not trying to debate you on what other CWMU's do, frankly I don't know , but if you've read all the posts, you might get an idea where I spend my september & octobers. Size Matters made a specific accusation at a specific CWMU, that means he's (or she) accusing me or one of my friends of doing something that IS ILLEGAL, I don't appreciate being accused of something that he (or she ) has absolutly no proof of and never will, because it didn't happen! Take that for how ever you want! 

Maybe Size Matters is one of them guys(or girls) in the ninja suit sneaking around trying to pick off a big bull inside the property line, because in the end, to him(or her) size really does matter! 

I see Oldfudd chimed in here with a real bright statement, in that case maybe you and size matters should head south so you can get them big bucks you've always wanted!


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## twigflipper (Dec 11, 2009)

oldfudd said:


> Thats probally why you seldom to never see a warden down south. To busy protecting private interest,,


And another thing my friend if the Game Wardens were not out checking up on us (which my boss openly EXPECTS them to do!) You would be making flippant remarks about how we get away with anything and everything we want! Sorry I couldn't help myself. :wink:


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

skull krazy said:


> [quote="Size Matters":2h771jwr]I know it happens quite a bit I have seen Deseret try to push the elk back on there unfortunately I don't think there is much you can do.


You have got to be joking :roll: 
I have worked on Deseret for many years and assure you there is NO need to push elk back ON the property, that's absurd!
There are more elk on Deseret property than all the surrounding land combined, why in the hell would there be a need for this activity?
...[/quote:2h771jwr]
Skull,
I would not lose any sleep over such comments. There are so many "stories" about these kinds of things that I have to wonder what starts the stories. I can only guess that it is a person's natural response to failure, they have to blame someone else for their lack of success, I guess, some of us have a hard time taking blame for our own lack of preparation, so sometimes we want to blame it on the rich bastages who steal all of "our" elk... *\-\*


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

So I'm just going to play devils advocate for a minute here. I'm not saying that if something like this were to happen that it would in any way be ethical, but from a law standpoint, I don't think they would be doing anything wrong.

So the accusation is that the outfitters are crossing onto *public* land, and then pushing animals back to the private property, right? It's public land, and as sad as is sounds, that whole public vs. private thing is a one way street. They have as much right to be there as any of us.

And I've read the whole thing about "harrassment of wildlife" but really, if they have a shooter on the other side of the fence, with a legal tag, is it really harrassment in the enforceable sense? Or technically is it a deer drive? I'm pretty sure that there is more than one guy here that has pushed brush for his buddy, and at least one or two of them have filled their tag, which is why they don't mind working to help his buddy get a deer, am I right?

How is one any different than the other, other than the fact that there is a magical line on the ground that outfitters are allowed to cross and you aren't? I can see if they are out there chasing them on 4 wheelers or something. But if they are just walking and letting their scent and sound push the animals ahead of them, is it really illegal?

And the accusation about Deseret pushing animals, I just don't see the point of why on earth they would bother. I've been fortunate enough to draw out on deseret 4 times on 3 different species, and I've never witnessed anything like that, and I've never had any problem finding animals up there. They have sanctuaries set up there to keep the animals on their property, and there isn't any kind of shortage of them. They just do a great job of managing their wildlife and leaving them plenty of cover and space so they don't have to go to the public land to avoid pressure.

Look I can totally understand the frustration you would feel if you saw something like that happening. It would totally piss me off too. But in the end, is it really illegal, or just ethically questionable, cause there is a difference.


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## Bhuntin (Sep 8, 2007)

I don't think it is harrassment. However, wouldn't hunting public land during a closed season be illegal? Pushing animals around would be considered hunting right? Otherwise it would be harrassment. 

My point--you have enough private land to hunt on, don't hunt on our public land when no one else is allowed to hunt it. Otherwise can I shoot an animal on public land and cross over your fence and retrieve the animal? I certainly can't chase it off your land to public land and shoot it. So unless you are chasing it across the fence during the same public hunt, I think it is or should be illegal.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

Bhuntin said:


> My point--you have enough private land to hunt on, don't hunt on our public land when no one else is allowed to hunt it. Otherwise can I shoot an animal on public land and cross over your fence and retrieve the animal? I certainly can't chase it off your land to public land and shoot it. So unless you are chasing it across the fence during the same public hunt, I think it is or should be illegal.


That's the part I was saying is a one way street. They have the advantage that they own a piece of land they can walk on and we can't. There isn't any reason they can't walk on public land, it's *public*. And I'm betting that the people who have seen them doing this have been hunters as well, which in my mind would suggest that there is indeed an open hunt going on at that time. And really they could do a scent drive or just "hike" and yell back and forth to each other, and it isn't harrassment or hunting. They would have to be actively chasing them, and probably on horseback, four wheeler or vehicle to be prosecuted. Otherwise they aren't doing anything more threatening than a wildlife photographer. This has nothing to do with fair or ethical. And as much as it sounds like it, I'm not defending their alleged actions. I'm just saying that from a legal perspective, it doesn't sound like they are breaking the law, or at least not blatantly enough to be successfully prosecuted.

I do acknowledge that if their property is a CWMU the hunter posted on the private side can't step foot on the public part of the unit, and that the drivers are technically pushing a unit they don't have a tag for. But all that would have to happen to circumvent that problem would be for one of the drivers to have in his possession a valid general season tag for that public unit. I'm not saying it's right for them to do this, I'm just saying that we don't have a legal leg to stand on.


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