# Good thing happening at Hatch (Sevier River)



## maguro88

I was very busy about 4 weeks and just found couple of days to go check out our cabin in Mammoth creek. We got there about 11am, and we decided to go to lunch at Cactus Cowboy in Hatch. After lunch we went fishing down in Sevier River. I was not so much in to lure fishing but I always wanted to do, so I got my self few of Luckycrafts, Blue Fox and Rapalas. I landed one 16 inch and half brown. This was my first reasonable size brown I ever caught!
And we saw some official are working in and side of river. When we were fishing Ms M from Hatch came to talk to us. She explains that they are making Sevier River to be a Blue Ribbon water. I thought just let you guys know that they are making fish friendly and easy access and more!


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## fstop

Hey Magaru88,
Nice brown! I was down on the Sevier yesterday working on a story with the DWR and what you said is correct. What they are doing is working with landowners and rehabing the river. They are currently working on a 4 mile stretch of the Sevier river, taking out old cars, tires, refridgerators, basically junk that were used in the last few decades to shore up the banks and replacing the junk with logs and rock. They will then plant cottonwoods, willows and other plants to help restore the river to make better habitat for the native fish and for the trout! They will also fence off some of the rehabed areas so that the cattle won't be able to eat all of the plants they put in. 
If you've ever been to the East Fork of the Sevier in Kingston Canyon, you know how beautiful the river is there. They've been working on the East Fork for years and the structures and the fishing is much better there. They hope the Sevier will look similiar to the E. Fork someday. The story will air this Saturday on Roughin' It Outdoors @ 11:00pm. 

Adam Eakle aka fstop


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## muleymadness

Good to hear and know, thanks for the report guys. I spend a lot time out there and I'm STOKED they are doing this.


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## .45

That's a pretty brown you got there maguro88 !! _And,_ a mighty large fishing pole !! :wink:

Good post, it's good to see improvements that can benefit everybody !!


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## RnF

hmm, this is interesting. It's good to see more rivers get restored, or improved. Thanks for the info maguro88 and fstop.

Nice fishy too


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## wyoming2utah

http://www.kutv.com/content/outdoors/st ... ff64e9cba8

http://www.kutv.com/content/outdoors/st ... e6a1da4b36


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## proutdoors

I saw wyo2ut's brother on Roughin It Outdoors. Great to see the good work being done down there, and the co-op from some of the private landowners.


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## HighNDry

And if you all would have given Richard the time of day about the Middle Provo, we could have the same thing there, but no, you all think the middle is perfect and ran Richard out of town.


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## proutdoors

HighNDry said:


> And if you all would have given Richard the time of day about the Middle Provo, we could have the same thing there, but no, you all think the middle is perfect and ran Richard out of town.


I'm glad for selfish reasons. I spend my time on the southern half of the state.


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## .45

proutdoors said:


> I'm glad for selfish reasons. I spend my time on the southern half of the state.


You don't fish anyhow......now, get outa here !!!

Oh..?!? :shock: .......a golden star ?? :shock: ...................................... Congrats, I figured you'd make sheriff around here one day........it looks good !!


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## proutdoors

.45 said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad for selfish reasons. I spend my time on the southern half of the state.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't fish anyhow......now, get outa here !!!
> 
> Oh..?!? :shock: .......a golden star ?? :shock: ...................................... Congrats, I figured you'd make sheriff around here one day........it looks good !!
Click to expand...

I just watched True Grit last night, all I need now is a patch. I'm saving money for when Obama raises my taxes, or else I would be a diamond like you, for now I'm just a lump of coal.


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## .45

HighNDry said:


> And if you all would have given Richard the time of day about the Middle Provo, we could have the same thing there, but no, you all think the middle is perfect and ran Richard out of town.


Back to topic...sorry HighnDry....now's whose Richard and whats the story?


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## 2-Fer

Where they are doing that work is just down the road from where my Grandparents lived. I use to fish that stretch of the river all the time growing up. There were always some good fish in there. It is nice to see that they are improving it.


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## Nor-tah

The title of this could not me any more true! I love that place. Nice fishes..


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## HighNDry

.45 said:


> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> 
> And if you all would have given Richard the time of day about the Middle Provo, we could have the same thing there, but no, you all think the middle is perfect and ran Richard out of town.
> 
> 
> 
> Back to topic...sorry HighnDry....now's whose Richard and whats the story?
Click to expand...

Richard is one of the fisheries biologists who did the RAC presentation wanting the regulations on the Middle Provo to include bait fishing and liberal limits because his research show that most of the brown trout are stunted and in poor health. He claims that by allowing liberal harvests the size and health of the fish will increase. He claims that the catch & release mentality of fly fishermen is detremental to the Middle Provo, Blacksmith Fork, Ogden River and other brown trout streams in Utah. He backed his presentation up with a photo or two of stunted looking brown trout. No photos of the 20 inchers you fly fishers claim to catch were presented so we were left to assume that you all are lying.


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## PBH

HighNDry said:


> He backed his presentation up with a photo or two of stunted looking brown trout. No photos of the 20 inchers you fly fishers claim to catch ....


He also had considerable amounts of data to back his presentation. It wasn't just a handful of photos that show that there are stunting issues on the Provo...


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## rapalahunter

PBH said:


> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> 
> He backed his presentation up with a photo or two of stunted looking brown trout. No photos of the 20 inchers you fly fishers claim to catch ....
> 
> 
> 
> He also had considerable amounts of data to back his presentation. It wasn't just a handful of photos that show that there are stunting issues on the Provo...
Click to expand...

Don't go muckin' up the argument by spewing your "science" garbage here. :wink:


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## Pez Gallo

I got to go on an electroshocking activity with Richard the guys from "roughin it" about two years ago on the Middle Provo. It was interesting to see how many sculpin live in that river, how many big whitefish that are in there, and how many cookie cutter 12-14" browns that are in there. I asked Richard about those fish and the stunting question, particularly how old those small fish were. I cant remember the exact answer, but basically the fish were 2-3 years behind in growth. I think he said those 12" fish were like 4-6 years old.


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## HighNDry

PBH said:


> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> 
> He backed his presentation up with a photo or two of stunted looking brown trout. No photos of the 20 inchers you fly fishers claim to catch ....
> 
> 
> 
> He also had considerable amounts of data to back his presentation. It wasn't just a handful of photos that show that there are stunting issues on the Provo...
Click to expand...

Oh yeah. He had models and graphs and a sidekick that kept noddding in agreement with what he said. Then they took questions and response from the people in attendance, which asked that they hold off on allowing bait until the river reconstruction was done and the river had a chance to recover from the bulldozers. That was the RAC process: give the people a chance to voice their opinions. That's as far a s it went. The decision was already previously made for what ever reason and the change to bait section was implemented.

I say, if the DWR really believes the bait fishing will improve the river, then the whole Provo watershed should be opened up to bait. Get them browns thinned.


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## wyoming2utah

HighNDry said:


> PBH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> 
> He backed his presentation up with a photo or two of stunted looking brown trout. No photos of the 20 inchers you fly fishers claim to catch ....
> 
> 
> 
> He also had considerable amounts of data to back his presentation. It wasn't just a handful of photos that show that there are stunting issues on the Provo...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh yeah. He had models and graphs and a sidekick that kept noddding in agreement with what he said. Then they took questions and response from the people in attendance, which asked that they hold off on allowing bait until the river reconstruction was done and the river had a chance to recover from the bulldozers. That was the RAC process: give the people a chance to voice their opinions. That's as far a s it went. The decision was already previously made for what ever reason and the change to bait section was implemented.
> 
> I say, if the DWR really believes the bait fishing will improve the river, then the whole Provo watershed should be opened up to bait. Get them browns thinned.
Click to expand...

In other words, if the people voice their opinion--even if they are wrong--the RAC should listen and do what the people say? Is that how you think things should work? Isn't the RAC only supposed to give people a chance to voice their opinion...it isn't a vote by the people.


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## .45

> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> 
> No photos of the 20 inchers you fly fishers claim to catch were presented so we were left to assume that you all are lying.
Click to expand...

Heh heh....it's called fishing !!

I'm sure there are some nice fish still in there, however, I have not seen anything large come out of there since before the regs were changed. And in all honesty, I don't fish the Provo much anymore, so I would have no first hand experience in the matter. The overcrowding of people and the regs had turned me off years ago. I had always thought, doing what they did, was a big mistake. In my mind, the Weber might turn out the same.

I pretty much grew up on that river, I watched the brother pull in two 7lb browns in one afternoon, my other brother nailed a 9lb sucker the same day, the prettiest sucker I've ever seen. :wink: ...I, myself have caught nothing over 5lb on the Provo, but we used to catch a lot bigger fish that I see coming out of there now.

But, being a public water, I wish they would open it up for everybody. Family's should be able to enjoy the river without trying to teach a 3 year old child how to fly fish. One good thing that has happened through the years, the cleanliness of the river, the paths, the parking access. I do appreciate the improvements and the care taken by some responsible party's..whomever they might be.


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## HighNDry

Wyo2Utah RE: RAC

Only when that is how it was sold to the public. We were told to attend if we wanted any say in what was happening. I, along with others took that to mean that if it had strong oposition, then the changes wouldn't be made. Why have public input if you are just going to do what you feel is best anyway?


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## flyguy7

I really have a hard time having faith in anything having to do with the DWR since Diamond Fork was poisoned. What about that whole deal. Diamond fork was used as the model for what they wanted m. provo fish to look like in the RAC meeting. Then a couple of years later it is poisoned on the upper end, yet fish took a serious nose dive to next to nothing compared to what it used to be like all the way down to the confluence with the spanish fork river. Ive been pushing to get a fish count done since the rotenone for a year and a half. Every time I call, its empty promises. "oh, we were going to but we ran out of time" Destroyed one of the coolest small streams in the state all in the name of the meek cutthroat.


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## .45

flyguy7 said:


> I really have a hard time having faith in anything having to do with the DWR since Diamond Fork was poisoned. What about that whole deal. Diamond fork was used as the model for what they wanted m. provo fish to look like in the RAC meeting. Then a couple of years later it is poisoned on the upper end, yet fish took a serious nose dive to next to nothing compared to what it used to be like all the way down to the confluence with the spanish fork river. Ive been pushing to get a fish count done since the rotenone for a year and a half. Every time I call, its empty promises. "oh, we were going to but we ran out of time" *Destroyed one of the coolest small streams in the state *all in the name of the meek cutthroat.


Don't forget Mammoth Creek.....probably before your time though.


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## wyoming2utah

HighNDry said:


> Wyo2Utah RE: RAC
> 
> Only when that is how it was sold to the public. We were told to attend if we wanted any say in what was happening. I, along with others took that to mean that if it had strong oposition, then the changes wouldn't be made. Why have public input if you are just going to do what you feel is best anyway?


What you fail to remember is that your "strong opposition" was only in one RAC meeting...not statewide. You also seem to forget that their was some support of this regulation change as well... Also, even if their is strong opposition, should the "strong opposition" be listened to if that "opposition" is wrong?

People have this crazy idea that if they show up to the RACs and voice their opinion that that opinion should be followed by the RACs. The RAC is designed to gather input from a variety of sources and then choose what they--the RAC--feel is the best. That is exactly how things worked...the RACs gathered input from the DWR, the public, and some special interest groups and made decisions based upon that input. Every RAC in the state voted to accept the DWR's suggestion for regulations except one...and that single RAC had a very close vote as to support or oppose it.


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## wyoming2utah

flyguy7 said:


> I really have a hard time having faith in anything having to do with the DWR since Diamond Fork was poisoned. What about that whole deal. Diamond fork was used as the model for what they wanted m. provo fish to look like in the RAC meeting. Then a couple of years later it is poisoned on the upper end, yet fish took a serious nose dive to next to nothing compared to what it used to be like all the way down to the confluence with the spanish fork river. Ive been pushing to get a fish count done since the rotenone for a year and a half. Every time I call, its empty promises. "oh, we were going to but we ran out of time" Destroyed one of the coolest small streams in the state all in the name of the meek cutthroat.


Lots of BS in this statement...my brother was directly responsible for this whole project. Not only does he have lots of data from this stream, but he can also show how it improved. The model of comparison, by the way, was not DF but Sixth Water...been there lately? Obviously, you know nothing of cutthroat restoration, the ESA, and what actually happened up there.


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## wyoming2utah

.45 said:


> Don't forget Mammoth Creek.....probably before your time though.


What Mammoth Creek are you talking about? The one near Hatch? If you are, you are up in the night! Mammoth Creek near Hatch is a brown trout stream near the hatchery is a brown trout stream...up near the headwaters, it is a rainbow trout and brook trout stream.


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## flyguy7

Lets see the information, Wyo. I can tell you that there has been a DRAMATIC drop in both catch rates and average size on the river since the treatment. This is from myself and a handful of other anglers (some of whom are some of the best guides and fly fisherman anywhere in the state or even western US.) Now either everyone forgot how to fish it two years ago all of the sudden of the numbers have fell through the floor. I actually fished it yesterday. I do not think it is irony that EVERY single fish I caught on the lower river was 10 inches long, and im not at expert on fish aging but I was guess two year old fish. On the bright side I didn't see any cutthroat for the first time since the re-introduction. Yea Ive fished sixth water NUMEROUS times, I don't need an indroduction. Before the poisoning, I caught thicker fish out of diamond fork than sixth water. And im not looking for an argument or anything, I just want to know what the hell is REALLY going on down there.


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## wyoming2utah

The upper section of Diamond Fork--where the river was poisoned--is full of small cutthroat (because they haven't had enough time for growth). This section of stream is in really good shape--fish are doing well and growing like they should. Prior to the treatment, this section of river was full of small browns. Nothing to get excited about.

The lower section of Diamond Fork is the section that has gone downhill, BUT it has nothing to do with cutthroat restoration. This section of stream has had some flow changes that have decreased recruitment. The lower recruitment has led to fewer fish...BUT this also can be looked at as a good thing. With the lower recruitment, fish growth should be good. If you caught a bunch of ten inchers, you should be happy. That means that fish are reproducing and some natural recruitment is taking place...those fish are probably young healthy fish.

It is funny, though, that you somehow think that the poisoning of the upper portions of Diamond Fork have dramatically affected the lower river...it hasn't. If you want some more detail, feel free to give my brother a call. He is now working at the Southern Region...call the DWR's souther region office on Monday and talk to him about it.


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## flyguy7

You make good sense, wyo. I do not fish the upper portions of the river so I have no basis for an opinion. My fishing is usually concentrated from the tanner ridge tunnel to the uinta national forest boundary. Im curious as to what flow changes and what are these changes? Is it the tunnel? Is it low winter flows causing predation or low summer flows? The very disturbing thing me was the lack of fish spawning. I have seen it in the past where you could almost walk across the river in prime area on fish backs and yet yesterday, during the peak of the spawn, only saw 2 small juvenile fish on the beds in a mile and a half of river. Years past during early summer you could land 30-60 fish in a day, the majority of which stretched past 15 inches. Fish rising everywhere to golden stones, green drakes, yellow sallies, caddis, PMDs, and even salmonflies. Theres a one week window when all of these hatches overlap and the fishing is just unbelievable. Hit it twice this year. Landed 2 fish one day and one fish another. Almost enough to make me cry. Thanks for the info, wyo. I'll make a call early next week.


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## .45

wyoming2utah said:


> What Mammoth Creek are you talking about? The one near Hatch? *If you are, you are up in the night! *Mammoth Creek near Hatch is a brown trout stream near the hatchery is a brown trout stream...up near the headwaters, it is a rainbow trout and brook trout stream.


Yeah, oh wise one, I was up in the night, reading a '70's Field & Stream of how the DWR screwed up the place. You look it up...


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## Pez Gallo

flyguy7 said:


> Lets see the information, Wyo. I can tell you that there has been a DRAMATIC drop in both catch rates and average size on the river since the treatment. This is from myself and a handful of other anglers (some of whom are some of the best guides and fly fisherman anywhere in the state or even western US.) Now either everyone forgot how to fish it two years ago all of the sudden of the numbers have fell through the floor. I actually fished it yesterday. I do not think it is irony that EVERY single fish I caught on the lower river was 10 inches long, and im not at expert on fish aging but I was guess two year old fish. On the bright side I didn't see any cutthroat for the first time since the re-introduction. Yea Ive fished sixth water NUMEROUS times, I don't need an indroduction. Before the poisoning, I caught thicker fish out of diamond fork than sixth water. And im not looking for an argument or anything, I just want to know what the hell is REALLY going on down there.


I don't think that the fish below three forks went anywhere. That creek is just an sob sometimes. In the last two years I have had 30 fish outings and a week later, can't buy a fish. The fish I have caught after the poisoning have been pretty decent.

I would be interested in seeing a shocking report on that creek though.


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## maguro88

wyoming2utah said:


> .45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget Mammoth Creek.....probably before your time though.
> 
> 
> 
> What Mammoth Creek are you talking about? The one near Hatch? If you are, you are up in the night! Mammoth Creek near Hatch is a brown trout stream near the hatchery is a brown trout stream...up near the headwaters, it is a rainbow trout and brook trout stream.
Click to expand...

I caught small brown about 2 miles from headwater........


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## BrookTroutKid

.45 said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> What Mammoth Creek are you talking about? The one near Hatch? *If you are, you are up in the night! *Mammoth Creek near Hatch is a brown trout stream near the hatchery is a brown trout stream...up near the headwaters, it is a rainbow trout and brook trout stream.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, oh wise one, I was up in the night, reading a '70's Field & Stream of how the DWR screwed up the place. You look it up...
Click to expand...

.45 How dare you state something about mammoth without consulting W2U first, I mean he is an expert on everything fishing in the Great state of Utah. He knows everything and his word is law.... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## .45

BrookTroutKid said:


> .45 How dare you state something about mammoth without consulting W2U first, I mean he is an expert on everything fishing in the Great state of Utah. He knows everything and his word is law.... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


I'm sure W2U knows stuff. But, I have my doubts the man was with me in Cedar City in the '70's listening to the locals complain about what our Fish & Game Dept ( then ) did to one of their most scared and secret spots. I guess a few chubs or suckers were found so they poisoned the whole system, not knowing it was a hot spot, at that time, for large browns. It was actually profiled in Field & Stream !!

Oh, the good 'ole days, Sullivans for breakfast, eggs & bacon and a beer !!


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## flyguy7

I wouldn't disagree at all that Wyo does have a great deal of knowledge about the fish in this state. I think the problem is, as well as many others in this state has, is that the DWR does not use their greatest resource, the thousands of anglers in the state, for informaton. As proved in this thread http://utahwildlife.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10985 the dwr regards the anglers as clueless and uninformed. I was extremely frustrated at the fact that Wyo blatanly argued me with a river that i have spent over a hundred days on this year that he has not even been to this year. I think the dwr does have the ability to do lots great things with our fisheries but they cannot go into it with one eye blind and not listen to the guys who spend the most amount of time on the water.


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## wyoming2utah

.45 said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> What Mammoth Creek are you talking about? The one near Hatch? *If you are, you are up in the night! *Mammoth Creek near Hatch is a brown trout stream near the hatchery is a brown trout stream...up near the headwaters, it is a rainbow trout and brook trout stream.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, oh wise one, I was up in the night, reading a '70's Field & Stream of how the DWR screwed up the place. You look it up...
Click to expand...

You are serious? The 70s...what a freakin' joke. You are complaining about something that happened 30 years ago?

Get real...


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## wyoming2utah

maguro88 said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget Mammoth Creek.....probably before your time though.
> 
> 
> 
> What Mammoth Creek are you talking about? The one near Hatch? If you are, you are up in the night! Mammoth Creek near Hatch is a brown trout stream near the hatchery is a brown trout stream...up near the headwaters, it is a rainbow trout and brook trout stream.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I caught small brown about 2 miles from headwater........
Click to expand...

browns actually go clear to the springs where the creek originates; however, the stream is predominantly catchable rainbows and wild brook trout near the top. 2 miles from the headwater and the creek starts converting back to more of a brown trout stream...

...just don't tell .45 that the stream isn't "destroyed" and wasn't in the 70's :roll: . In fact, when whirling disease was first discovered in the Hatch hatchery not too long ago, I was shocking the river with the DWR when we shocked up a rainbow trout that was over 30 inches long...

....when was the last time a 30 incher was shocked or caught in the Provo?


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## wyoming2utah

flyguy7 said:


> I think the problem is, as well as many others in this state has, is that the DWR does not use their greatest resource, the thousands of anglers in the state, for informaton. As proved in this thread http://utahwildlife.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10985 the dwr regards the anglers as clueless and uninformed. I was extremely frustrated at the fact that Wyo blatanly argued me with a river that i have spent over a hundred days on this year that he has not even been to this year. I think the dwr does have the ability to do lots great things with our fisheries but they cannot go into it with one eye blind and not listen to the guys who spend the most amount of time on the water.


The DWR doesn't use fishermen info? What about the countless hours the DWR used to gather information from fishermen in their creel surveys? They didn't use any of that? Come on...we both know that's not true. We also know that fishermen are commonly guilty of exaggerating...especially the size of the fish. The Provo River is the perfect example of fishermen who exaggerate what is and is not alive in that river. What would you trust more...numerous hours of measuring, weighing, aging, and looking at actual K factors of fish on the stream from samples...or word of mouth from fishermen?

I blatantly argued with you over a river I spend 0 fishing hours on because I happen to have lots of biological evidence to prove my side of things...


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## HighNDry

What has been said about the DWR can be said in reverse about guides. Guides will lie about fish size and quantity all the time becasue it is good for their business. I have fished the Middle Provo and it is full of stunted browns; sick looking individual fish with big heads and snake like bodies. You might be proud to hold one up for a photo, but the photos you guys are posting, tell the truth: those fish are sick.

What'all say we meet at the fly shop and tell stories of how many and how big the fish we catch are. Maybe we can throw out statistics of how many days we fish and how much prowess we have fishing over starving fish, that will eat near about anything floated over them. I'm really something, by golly, I'm a real man for what fish I catch, how I do it and for how long. WAAAAAAAAWHOOOOOOOOOEEEEEE! :mrgreen:


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## wyoming2utah

flyguy7 said:


> You make good sense, wyo. I do not fish the upper portions of the river so I have no basis for an opinion. My fishing is usually concentrated from the tanner ridge tunnel to the uinta national forest boundary. Im curious as to what flow changes and what are these changes? Is it the tunnel? Is it low winter flows causing predation or low summer flows? The very disturbing thing me was the lack of fish spawning.


In the past, you could almost walk across the spawning fish...they were pretty thick. Now, though, the flows on Diamond Fork have changed dramatically as well as the river. About 4 years ago Diamond Fork went from having very high flows all summer long to consistent flows year round (the extra water was put in pipe). With those high summer flows, the river was scoured and the fine sediment washed away...this left good spawning habitat and good fish numbers. The high summer flows also helped control recruitment and keep fish numbers at good levels and growth stayed high. With the change in summer flows and the consistent summer flows, spawning gravel is not as easy to find because of the fine sediment and fish are not as successful in their recruitment. The river is in a state of flux....the old flows washed out the river channel and created wide banks...the lower flows now run between those old banks. The river needs time to adapt...only time will tell whether brown trout will need to be stocked to sustain higher levels or not. However, one thing that is for sure...the stream holds some really nice fish. These big ones are not numerous, but they are there.


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## .45

wyoming2utah said:


> You are serious? The 70s...what a freakin' joke. You are complaining about something that happened 30 years ago?
> Get real...


It was like yesterday to me.... :wink:


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## .45

HighNDry said:


> What has been said about the DWR can be said in reverse about guides. Guides will lie about fish size and quantity all the time becasue it is good for their business. I have fished the Middle Provo and it is full of stunted browns; sick looking individual fish with big heads and snake like bodies. You might be proud to hold one up for a photo, but the photos you guys are posting, tell the truth: those fish are sick.
> 
> What'all say we meet at the fly shop and tell stories of how many and how big the fish we catch are. Maybe we can throw out statistics of how many days we fish and how much prowess we have fishing over starving fish, that will eat near about anything floated over them. I'm really something, by golly, I'm a real man for what fish I catch, how I do it and for how long. WAAAAAAAAWHOOOOOOOOOEEEEEE! :mrgreen:


HighNDry.......didn't Fatbass ask you once to leave? Gee, I wonder why?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6130&p=73083#p73083


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## PBH

.45 said:


> It was like yesterday to me.... :wink:


When was the last time you fished it? 29 years ago?

hell -- Mammoth Creek has been a good trout fishery for as long as I can remember. The biggest problem with Mammoth has nothing to do with the DWR -- it has to do with private property and access. The lower stretches (above the hatchery) were open for many years, but then private land owners fenced things and kept fishermen out. Access is better now than it has been for the last 10 years. The fishery has been consistently good for a long time.

.45 -- maybe it's time to go try it again?

Back on topic -- Stan Beckstrom has done an amazing job with restoration on the Sevier River and the East Fork Sevier. Hopefully land owners can see the improvements and benefits of allowing the DWR to restore sections of river. The Sevier River has many, many miles of stream that have been abused for many, many years. It land owners would cooperate just a little bit with the DWR this could all be changed. Imagine having a trout stream that stretched from Hatch all the way to Piute Reservoir!! It's possible -- but only if land owners can open their eyes like those in Hatch.


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## .45

PBH said:


> Back on topic -- Stan Beckstrom has done an amazing job with restoration on the Sevier River and the East Fork Sevier. Hopefully land owners can see the improvements and benefits of allowing the DWR to restore sections of river. The Sevier River has many, many miles of stream that have been abused for many, many years. It land owners would cooperate just a little bit with the DWR this could all be changed. Imagine having a trout stream that stretched from Hatch all the way to Piute Reservoir!! It's possible -- but only if land owners can open their eyes like those in Hatch.


Congrats to the man....I hope it's a sign of good of things to come. Now, seriously, how can we help?


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## flyguy7

I think we are in agreement, Wyo. I know SOME very large trout are in there. But not like they were. I still remember when DF used to run at almost 300 cfs all summer long. It was a b*tch to wade but there was a giant fish holding in every drop off, seam, cutbank, and eddy. I used to sneak up into the closed section when they were working on the tanner ridge tunnel and bang some awesome fish on salmonflies above monks hollow. Were looking at the antithesis to the midde provo here. I think it comes down to one thing - minimum flows might be more detrimental to a trout fishery than un-regulated flows. I can think of a certain tailwater to our east that sees summer flows that get above 600 cfs an winter flows that are around a paltry 15cfs. It does not have huge numbers of fish but I would bet one of the largest average size for browns in the rockies. Its normal for streams to be super high during runoff and drop to a trickle during late summer and early fall. 110 to 70 cfs all year long on a river such as diamond is a bad thing. A 500 cfs flush would help tremendously. I remember when stretches of the river resembled a coastal glacial stream because the high water had scoured the gravel bars so well. I was on the SF of the Ogden today and it has a lot of similarities to DF. So I think the river will recover but it will take time and I hope stocking browns is a last resort, i'd rather see them come back on their own. Maybe we can geta big flush of water out of the tanner ridge or syar tunnels in the spring. I don't think strawberry would hardly notice it.


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## HighNDry

.45 said:


> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has been said about the DWR can be said in reverse about guides. Guides will lie about fish size and quantity all the time becasue it is good for their business. I have fished the Middle Provo and it is full of stunted browns; sick looking individual fish with big heads and snake like bodies. You might be proud to hold one up for a photo, but the photos you guys are posting, tell the truth: those fish are sick.
> 
> What'all say we meet at the fly shop and tell stories of how many and how big the fish we catch are. Maybe we can throw out statistics of how many days we fish and how much prowess we have fishing over starving fish, that will eat near about anything floated over them. I'm really something, by golly, I'm a real man for what fish I catch, how I do it and for how long. WAAAAAAAAWHOOOOOOOOOEEEEEE! :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> 
> HighNDry.......didn't Fatbass ask you once to leave? Gee, I wonder why?
> 
> Why? Because I was dissing on his beloved Jazz and he along with a bunch of others couldn't take it.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with my above statement. It is factual. If you like to have a photo with a sickly looking brown and a smiling guide, have at it. I'm just pointing out that guides lie about the health of the trout in the Provo River to keep the clients coming. They have to.
> What's your problem with that?
> 
> viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6130&p=73083#p73083
Click to expand...


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## PBH

.45 said:


> Now, seriously, how can we help?


I believe that the majority of the renovation projects are done using Blue Ribbon money. So, I guess supporting the Blue Ribbon initiative would be a good place to start (no more complaining about license price increases?).

If you are a land owner, then work with the DWR on habitat improvement.

If you haven't looked at the videos from Roughin' it Outdoors, take a look at them. Look at how excited the land owner is about having someone else (DWR) pay to make an ugly river into a pretty river. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me...


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## flyguy7

> flyguy7 on Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:18 am
> 
> Not always but mostly. Lets look at our hatches on those rivers--
> 
> Blue wing olive mayflies (spring baetis and fall pseudocleon)
> pale morning dun mayflies (inermis and infrequens)
> brachycentrus caddis
> american grannom caddis
> green drake mayfly
> golden stonely
> little yellow sally mayfly
> various chironomids (midges)
> 
> Looking at this list there are only two insects on here larger on average than a #16- the Drake and the Golden stone. Therefore it makes sense to fish the smaller bugs that match the insects. Places like the upper provo and upper Weber are freestone, therefore have more numbers of larger invertebrates such as drakes and stones, but MUCH fewer smaller bugs.
> 
> Places like the middle and lower provo have huge numbers of the smaller bugs, being tailwaters. The middle does have good numbers of the drakes and stones but when these bugs aren't active there are still plenty of smaller bugs around. And the pressure they receive have a lot to do with the smaller bugs as well. They are less selective to smaller flies (nymphs) than the bigger stuff.


Classic HighnDry! Hit a guide up for information one day and then bash on him and tell him he is a liar just a couple of days later. Don't let the door hit you on the arse on yur way out, HighnDry!


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## HighNDry

When did I ever hit up a guide for information? I asked a question to the general members of this board. 

I've been doing the opposite of what the guides have said for years, especially on the middle Provo.

I have a friend that wants me to tie up a nymph box for him. He didn't want to accept the fact that I can catch any trout on the Provo with a Prince Nymph size 10 and a multitude of dry flies, because some guide keeps telling him to fish small beadheads and stand in one spot all day.


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## IcatchEm

There aint no fish in that tiny stream, you need big rivers for trouts


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## flyguy7

The reasons many guides, myself included frequent the same area for a majority of the day is because most of the people that we guide have little or no experience, and just want to catch some fish. So we set them up in a prime run that hold lots of fish that can effectively be deep nymphed. This is the most sure fire way to get them into fish. YOU try taking someone who has never even seen a fly rod and getting them to land fish on size 22 baetis. It is my preffered way to fish but beginners get frustrated. Many start the day never even having a fly rod in their hand and end 4 hours later sometimes landing 15-20 fish. Small flies catch more fish in the deep runs holding lots of fish because these fish get fished so hard. P.S. - I rarely deep nymph with beadhead patterns. Everyone throws beadheads and non BH's get eaten better. The weight is non needed since I use splitshot to get them down.

A size 10 prince, how innovative? Thats never been done at all. A prince matches both a golden stone nymph and a green drake nymph quite nicely. But small nymphs day in and day out will catch more fish on the middle. No question. 

Yea, fish on the middle eat dries. No big surprise there. These are very surface oriented fish. During mid summer my favorite prospecting patterns is a size 14 royal Stimulator. I have taken many a people fishing on the middle and thrown dries and/or dry-dropper all day long. Its not a matter of "thats the only way we fish," its a matter of the most effective way to put beginners into fish.


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## HighNDry

I've been fishing a size 10 Prince for 20 years. Doesn't have anything to do with being innovative. Has to do with realizing that you can go to most Utah rivers day in and day out and catch stunted, hungry brown trout with that fly. No need to sit and switch patterns while standing in a hole all day. It's really not rocket science, when you are fishing for hungry, stunted browns. I'd say 10 minutes with a good guide, learning how to nymph and most Joe Blows should be able to catch the stunted, hungry browns in most Utah rivers. Lob that nymph upstream with some split shot on the line, get a dead-drift and watch the indicator for a twitch. As much as guides want to make it rocket science, it really isn't that hard.

Oh, the Latin can be a little difficult but I think that's why they started using terms like BWO and PMD. :lol:


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## Pez Gallo

I invented the size 10 prince nymph in 1978, the same year I invented brake light fluid and the idea of using lazer beams to catch arctic grayling in the Great Salt Lake.

top that! 8)


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## HighNDry

So you must be Doug Prince?
And before the guides spew forth their knowledge, let me beat them to it.
If you are Doug Prince, you know that you named your creation, "The Brown Fork-tailed Nymph."


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## flyguy7

Weak sauce Pez, I invented the spread offense. Spurrier bought me a case of whiskey for the idea. I did not invent the prince but I did invent the name Doug Prince. 8) 

As for you HighnDry -BaHa!- -oooo- I can't even come close to your knowledge base!


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## HighNDry

That's not true! I've seen some of your responses to questions and you have answered them with knowledge and experience. 

I appologize for belittling guides, just as in most professions, there are good ones and bad ones. You seem to be one of the good ones.

Sorry for the lumping generalities.


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