# Near-final draft of Utah's 2012 Bear Guidebook



## Amy (Jan 22, 2009)

We've just posted the 2012 Utah Black Bear Guidebook. As usual, this is an almost-final draft, and we'll have a few days before the proof goes back to the printer. If you see typos or anything that looks incorrect, please let me know. Thanks!


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks Amy cleared up alot of question I had about the new harvest objective units.


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## tkjwonta (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm wondering if there might be an error in the harvest objective hunt table on page 32. The top of the table says "Early summer season", but the dates listed for the Beaver and Nine Mile units are Oct 6- Nov 20. It also says "including fall harvest" in the Nine Mile quota. I'm guessing either the title or dates are incorrect.


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## bird buster (May 25, 2008)

I don't understand. If I want to hunt nine mile H.O. I can't use bait or a dog. I thought the purpose of H.O. hunt was to increase the number of hunters in the field thereby meeting the H.O. kill numbers. I hope I'm reading it wrong. I really wanted to bait some bears this year. Thanks again stupid Utah. Idaho here I come and I'm bringing my money. Sorry Utah fish and game no bear money for you. 


Can anyone explain why I can't bait. I'm steaming mad right now.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

bird buster said:


> I don't understand. If I want to hunt nine mile H.O. I can't use bait or a dog. I thought the purpose of H.O. hunt was to increase the number of hunters in the field thereby meeting the H.O. kill numbers. I hope I'm reading it wrong. I really wanted to bait some bears this year. Thanks again stupid Utah. Idaho here I come and I'm bringing my money. Sorry Utah fish and game no bear money for you.
> 
> Can anyone explain why I can't bait. I'm steaming mad right now.


Hopefully this will answer your question. I have pasted some stuff from the new bear management plan below. In short the idea is to try some different regulations over the the next 3 years on different units and measure their success. This will give us a better idea on what regulations to use on units in the future to get desired results. You could always look at another unit.

_"For the first three-year recommendation cycle, a
maximum of three units statewide in the moderate
and liberal harvest strategies may be managed under
a quota system. The Division will attempt to test
the quota system by having one as straight quota,
one as split strategy (limited entry followed by
quota) and one as a quota with a female sub quota."

"Determine if there is a relationship between baiting and
human-bear conflicts (i.e. does baiting increase the
potential for human safety issues in the area of the bait)."

"Recreation
Objective 1:
Maintain the quality and quantity of black bear recreational opportunities, both
consumptive and non consumptive through 2023.
Strategies:
1. Continue to offer a variety of black bear hunting opportunities,
including hounding, baiting, pursuit and *spot and stalk as
management tools*."_


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## Amy (Jan 22, 2009)

mikevanwilder said:


> Thanks Amy cleared up alot of question I had about the new harvest objective units.


I'm glad it helped!



tkjwonta said:


> I'm wondering if there might be an error in the harvest objective hunt table on page 32. The top of the table says "Early summer season", but the dates listed for the Beaver and Nine Mile units are Oct 6- Nov 20. It also says "including fall harvest" in the Nine Mile quota. I'm guessing either the title or dates are incorrect.


Good catch, tkjwonta: the "Early summer season" header was a typo. We're making the final edits to the proof today and will pull that out. Thanks for letting us know!



bird buster said:


> I don't understand. If I want to hunt nine mile H.O. I can't use bait or a dog. I thought the purpose of H.O. hunt was to increase the number of hunters in the field thereby meeting the H.O. kill numbers....Can anyone explain why I can't bait. I'm steaming mad right now.


It's a good question, bird buster. I also received your PM and forwarded it to our mammals coordinator, John Shivik, who said he'd call you to discuss it. I believe you spoke with him the other day. I also asked John to give me a summary so I could post it here. Here's what he explained:

1) The opportunity to hunt Nine Mile with bait is exactly the same as it has been for years in the limited-entry hunts. There has been no decrease in opportunity for archery hunting over bait.

2) (The following mirrors what bullsnot explained.) The new bear management plan called for the DWR to explore new ways to increase opportunity and to get more people interested in the resource. Some people do not have dogs or archery equipment, and the Nine Mile harvest-objective hunt allows hunters with rifles who are out during elk and deer season to do something they haven't done before. The new hunt gives another group the opportunity to hunt bears without taking anything away from any other group.

3) This approach is not set forever. We will gather three years of data and experience and then revisit how well the different hunt types worked at the end of the first cycle of the plan.



bullsnot said:


> Hopefully this will answer your question. I have pasted some stuff from the new bear management plan below. In short the idea is to try some different regulations over the the next 3 years on different units and measure their success. This will give us a better idea on what regulations to use on units in the future to get desired results. You could always look at another unit.


Thanks for following up on this, bullsnot. I've been pulled in about 30 different directions this week (craziest week of the year!) and couldn't respond until today. Just FYI to everyone: our Web/guidebook designer told me that he made the edits (only two minor ones, including the one tkjwonta found) and just barely posted the final Bear guidebook on the Web. The printed copy should be available sometime between the first and second weeks of February.


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## bird buster (May 25, 2008)

Amy, thank you and yes I was contacted by John. What I'm disappointed in is the fact that in the nine mile area (which is 90% private land) the fish and game wants to see elk hunters purchase a bear tag to put in their back pocket with the slim chance that they see a bear and want to shoot it. But the true bear hunters out there can't buy a tag and hunt over bait, or run dogs. So I feel the new H.O. are set up more elk hunters and deer hunters, but oh well I can always go up to Idaho. At least it's a step in the right direction. John did say they didn't think about guys who just want to hunt bears, and bears only. So in three years we will just need to get it changed to allow bait hunters like myself the opportunity to hunt bears each year. Thanks for listening to my rabbled thoughts. -Blake


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Hey bird buster that was what I was hoping for too. I'll probably still get a tag and try the spot and stock. I've talked to a few land owners and they said they wouldn't mind me going in and taking a bear.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

bird buster said:


> Amy, thank you and yes I was contacted by John. What I'm disappointed in is the fact that in the nine mile area (which is 90% private land) the fish and game wants to see elk hunters purchase a bear tag to put in their back pocket with the slim chance that they see a bear and want to shoot it. But the true bear hunters out there can't buy a tag and hunt over bait, or run dogs. So I feel the new H.O. are set up more elk hunters and deer hunters, but oh well I can always go up to Idaho. At least it's a step in the right direction. John did say they didn't think about guys who just want to hunt bears, and bears only. So in three years we will just need to get it changed to allow bait hunters like myself the opportunity to hunt bears each year. Thanks for listening to my rabbled thoughts. -Blake


Hey bird for what ever it's worth it seemed that there are a lot of hunters that wanted to hunt bear in Utah but didn't want to, or have the resources, to use hounds and do not archery hunt and can't hunt over bait. The spot and stalk hunts were designed as a way to give hunters another way to hunt bear in Utah. Not everyone was happy about it but time will tell if they were a good idea or not.


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## BLACKEYE (Feb 1, 2012)

Been sittin on the outside watchin in for a while, used to have an account before on the old board.
Thought I would toss a few truths in here. A bear hunter could always hunt spot and stalk or any way he or she wanted they DID NOT have to use dogs or bait. This is not a new hunt. The only thing thats new is now a deer or elk hunter can have a tag in their pocket (season dates). These 30 experimental spot and stalk permits per unit are thought to have 12% sucess. These comparable numbers were gathered from the roadless book cliffs hunt. Gee is there any roads on the SanJuan or Lasal?? Ask Colorado what the sow harvest ratios are on the spot and stalks there. Can you tell a sow from a boar across the canyon? Only if she has cubs by her side!! VERY CONCERNING!!!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Nice first post BLACKEYE...........(at least for quite a while).

SPOT ON!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

BLACKEYE said:


> Been sittin on the outside watchin in for a while, used to have an account before on the old board.
> Thought I would toss a few truths in here. A bear hunter could always hunt spot and stalk or any way he or she wanted they DID NOT have to use dogs or bait. This is not a new hunt. The only thing thats new is now a deer or elk hunter can have a tag in their pocket (season dates). These 30 experimental spot and stalk permits per unit are thought to have 12% sucess. These comparable numbers were gathered from the roadless book cliffs hunt. Gee is there any roads on the SanJuan or Lasal?? Ask Colorado what the sow harvest ratios are on the spot and stalks there. Can you tell a sow from a boar across the canyon? Only if she has cubs by her side!! VERY CONCERNING!!!


You're right BlackEye that a hunter could hunt spot and stalk during a hound season however the spot and stalk hunter would certainly have a disadvantage since those with hounds would get on the bears and would spook them making it much more diffucult to have success without hounds. Baiting only applys to archers. The desire was to have a spot and stalk only season for rifle hunters. Sure deer and elk hunters may get the tags but there are no guarantees that you will draw one of these tags AND a deer or elk tag in the same season, especially on the San Juan.

The 12% success rates came from Colorado. You are correct that sow harvest may be higher in a spot and stalk hunt but the two units, San Juan and La Sals, are under objective for sow harvest. At 12% success we are talking about 3 to 4 bears being harvested. This will have virtually no impact on the bears in those units.

For what ever its worth I felt like the we should've started out with a few less tags just to be safe and measure success before ramping up to more tags.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

BlackEye....I noticed you have a link to the Utah Houndsmen Assoc in your signature. Just so you are aware I supported your groups recommendations at the Central RAC 100%. That included starting at 10 tags on these hunts year one, going to 15 tags year 2, and 20 tags year 3. I also supported giving the houndsman a longer fall bear season on the San Juan.


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## BLACKEYE (Feb 1, 2012)

Bullsnot, 
Thanks for the support I was there. I'm gonna go out on a limb. The harvest rate will be above 50% on those 30 permits the first year, and nothing will be changed. 

5 permits on such large units during the fall you will have very little conflict between resource users. 

Bottom line can the bear population in utah handle increased harvest the numbers say yes. Will this harvest be the gateway tool for over harvest of the bear population like has been done to the lion population? TIME WILL TELL!

What scares me most is this statement made from the director "we need to do everything we can control to help the recovery of mule deer". Is this part of that plan?

15 years aggressive lion harvest and the deer population has got worse! How is that possible? (no lions)
The bobcat population is down (mirrors the rabbitt population).(no bobs)
If the bear population gets pounded what will be left for my kid to enjoy? (no bears) 

Again you tell me the future of my sport?

JMO


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Fair questions to ask Blackeye. IMHO Utah is at the forefront of trying to tie predator numbers to prey numbers and the impact predators have on prey species but we are only just beginning. 

This past spring an ammendment was passed on the cougar plan. Part of the change included collaring mule deer does to measure thier mortality rates in specific units. If mule deer mortality is measured at being higher than 15% in a unit then it is assumed that cougar are either a big part of the problem or need to be thinned in an area to help mule deer mortality rates come back into healthy levels.

We have LOTS of work to do but I believe this to be at least a small glimmer of hope for predator hunters. This means as time goes on we will be able to use science more and more to measure the impact of cougars and other predators on prey species and will only get more accurate as this concept gets bigger. This will show us that perhaps they are having a much smaller impact in some areas that we thought. The opposite could be true in other areas. 

My point is though as far as the future goes things are being done to improve things. Some recognize that simply eliminating all the predators may not help deer as much as we used to think. There is a lot of work to be done but there is some hope.


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## BLACKEYE (Feb 1, 2012)

We the houndsmen of this state have been telling the division and "sporting groups" that other factors are involved. NOW after our sport has been clearly addressed and ZERO recovery has been noted, when will we be heard? After the bears are Gone? Let me know when we can say "I told ya so"!

It tickles sportsmans ears to standardize the solution and say "kill the predators".

If you want to see a real preadator, snowmobile over right hand fork of hobble creek to diamond fork. I was up there saturday and let me tell you there are more than a couple WOLF tracks ALL over the road. I dang sure know how to read a track and the ground in 12" of snow. Tons of People have seen these tracks as well.

All you proactive "biggame" hunters better saddle up and get ready for the ride!!
You just might know how it feels to have your sport senselessly DESTROYED.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

BLACKEYE said:


> If you want to see a real preadator, snowmobile over right hand fork of hobble creek to diamond fork. I was up there saturday and let me tell you there are more than a couple WOLF tracks ALL over the road. I dang sure know how to read a track and the ground in 12" of snow. Tons of People have seen these tracks as well.


I know the DWR has been trying to get trail cam pictures or a DNA sample of whatever it is leaving those tracks. It seems unlikey that Yellowstone or Idaho wolf/wolves would bypass miles of prime wolf habitat to settle in a somewhat more marginal area. The odds are greater that it is some kind of a big dog or hybrid living up there, but we'll have to see.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Kevin D said:


> BLACKEYE said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to see a real preadator, snowmobile over right hand fork of hobble creek to diamond fork. I was up there saturday and let me tell you there are more than a couple WOLF tracks ALL over the road. I dang sure know how to read a track and the ground in 12" of snow. Tons of People have seen these tracks as well.
> ...


Kevin..... They are wolves! I was just privy to some pictures this past weekend and there is no doubt they are wolves. The DWR is aware of them I am sure of that. As for why they would pass up "prime wolf habitat", simple it's where there are larger concentrations of food sources for them. One would think that the Uintas would be more suited for wolves but in reality game up there is scattered and few. Diamond Fork - Strawberry - Manti would be more suited in game numbers; not to mention the availability of cattle as well.

PS: HIJACK over.


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## bird buster (May 25, 2008)

Two years ago I found some big dog tracks up AF canyon. I followed them for awhile and they led me to a kill stash which had remains of three bobcats. I took pictures of them and contacted the dwr. They had me email the pictures to them and got back with me saying "judging from the size of the track, location of the track, and the prey/kill stash all signs pointed to a wolf, most likely a young male that had been kicked out of the pack and was waiting to grow bigger before trying to return and establish a pack of his own." 

If someone wants to pm me their email I will send them the pictures as I'm not good at resizing and posting pictures. Thanks, Blake

Make no mistake about it the wolf is in Utah!!! Come on Coyote hunters, start thinning the pack.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm still going to wait for a DNA sample from the beast before I jump on the wolf bandwagon. As I mentioned, my suspicion is it some kind of dog/wolf hybrid. 

Now, listen carefully here, if it is a wolf/dog hybrid as I suspect, one would be perfectly legal to shoot it if it appears to be harassing or about to harass stock or wildlife. Perhaps even the DWR would appreciate a carcass to conduct a proper DNA survey.


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## bird buster (May 25, 2008)

Judd, I emailed the pictures to you. Please re-size them and post them and let others look at the tracks.


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## BLACKEYE (Feb 1, 2012)

Kev,
I'm with you a bit concerned. But on top that morning it was as cold as a mother-in-laws kiss. If it was hounds left out all night I would have found them on the road. They were night old tracks. Those tracks had been everywhere. I got word from some guy, he saw 4 wolfs running together. Heck i dont know.

By the way KEV you better be @ the banquet this year. MARCH 17th.

I will contact the "DAWG" to buy.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Here you go!

Carnage first:

[attachment=0:7bs7eceu]1.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

[attachment=1:7bs7eceu]2.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

[attachment=2:7bs7eceu]3.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

[attachment=3:7bs7eceu]4.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

[attachment=4:7bs7eceu]5.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

Now for the tracks:

[attachment=5:7bs7eceu]6.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

[attachment=9:7bs7eceu]DSCN0847.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

[attachment=8:7bs7eceu]DSCN0844.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

[attachment=7:7bs7eceu]DSCN0843.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

[attachment=6:7bs7eceu]7.JPG[/attachment:7bs7eceu]

I'm no expert, but it definitively looks canine as it looks like you can see the claws. You said you were 6' 4"? If so, those tracks look fairly big compared to your hand.

In the words of Matt Moneymaker from the show Finding Bigfoot:

*"Me thinks there is a Squatch in these woods"... er woofes!*


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## bird buster (May 25, 2008)

Thanks Judd for posting those pictures for me. I really think they are wolf tracks just as the dwr told me. Makes sense that it would be a young male kicked out of the pack and he's been hunting down in Utah. Any wolf experts or guys from Idaho that can compare these tracks.


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