# Chukar Spring Round-up



## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

Hit my go-to Chukar spot, this has become my day-before Easter tradition, to see if the hard winter had any ill effects on the chukar population. Answer: No. Last year I moved 2 coveys on a 2-hour lap of the best terrain. This year, 5. The birds appear to be paired-up and in fine fettle. If it doesn't get so frickin hot so fast like last year (and all the horrible things that can happen, don't happen) this could be year one of the re-bound. 

PS- Does anyone see any reason not to do a little catch and release chukar hunting this time of year? There are no eggs or chicks yet, the weather is great, and if you don't follow the flushes I can't imagine you're stressing the birds much. Anyone else see it differently? Aren't we a month or more away from egg-laying? I don't want to harass the birds when they are either full of eggs or sitting on nests, etc. Right now those wise old, almost one and sometimes two year old chukars are pretty warry, no easy points, lots of tracking.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Actually, they are getting ready to start laying any day now. It's up to you and what you think is safe and ethical. The *law* however, states that it is not legal to run dogs on wild birds after the 1st of April. So, enjoy it for one more week...


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

> Actually, they are getting ready to start laying any day now. It's up to you and what you think is safe and ethical. The law however, states that it is not legal to run dogs on wild birds after the 1st of April. So, enjoy it for one more week...


Well chukar hunting is never safe. But ethical? I'm not sure I appreciate the implication that I'm doing something _un-_ethical, but that's why I asked the question, so I can improve myself if need be. Do you see something unethical about pointing birds at this time of year? Do you think it stresses the birds to the point where it reduces the hatch? Maybe I'm being too sensitive today, but I understand the tone of your message to be disapproval and I'm a little taken aback. Not in a bad way, I'm just curious as to your reasoning. Back in Wisconsin and Michigan you can get a permit to point newly hatched grouse and wood**** for counting purposes. The trick is you have to have a REALLY steady dog, and right now I couldn't trust Troop to not gobble up all the chicks he could catch. Anyway, I'm rambling but my point is if they haven't hatched chicks yet, what's the harm?

Also, what is the law regarding April 1? I just looked through the Utah Administrative code and also the proclamation and didn't see anything like that. I'm sure you're right but I'd like to see where it came from, because I'd never heard of that rule and to be honest I do like to do a little tune-up on young grouse and chukar come August or so and I'm curious what my liability is. Is there a date when you can do a little catch and release again in the summer?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I'm not sure I appreciate the implication that I'm doing something un-ethical, but that's why I asked the question, so I can improve myself if need be. Do you see something unethical about pointing birds at this time of year?


No, not at all, I didn't mean to come across as being judgmental. I run my dogs on wild birds this time of year too. It's great training especially for a young dog. The April first law used to be written in the proclamation years ago, I don't know why it's not now. Maybe the law has changed. But, I know you can't operate a bird hunting club between April 1st and August 31st for the same reasons you can't run dogs. The birds are nesting and raising their broods all summer.

Thank goodness we have places like Lee Kay to train all summer.

I'd call the DWR and ask them directly about the law. I for one would like to know how it reads now.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

Sorry, guess I was a little jumpy yesterday. Anyway, I just emailed the DWR and asked about the April 1 closure thing. I'll post what I get back. Some sort of restriction while the birds are young seems like a good idea, but by August I really do like to push the grouse arond a little bit-- and I don't think I'm hurting anything. The little ones usually just hop into a tree. If anything I feel like I'm smartening them up a little bit.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

Here's the question I sent to the DWR and the response I got. It clarifies some things, but also adds a ton of confusion. Like how it can simultaneously be legal to train on wild birds, but illegal to harass them? Anyway:



> To whom it may concern:
> 
> I represent a group of upland bird hunters/dog trainers and we are under the belief that there is some sort of limitation of running dogs where they are likely to encounter wild birds after April 1. However, none of us can actually find this law on the books (proclamation or administrative code) and now we're wondering if we dreamed it up. Is there such a law? If so, where is it, how does it read and what does it mean? For instance, am I forbidden from intentionally looking for upland games birds with a dog in the summer, or am I liable if I'm just out in the woods and happen to have a dog flush some birds or is it something more tenuous like no "harassing" of upland game?
> 
> ...





> Here is the rule for the use of wild birds in dog training.
> 
> R657-46-6. Use of Wild Game Birds for Dog Training.
> 
> ...


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Typical bureaucratic response. But here's how I read that.

It's unlawful to train on wild birds unless there is some sort of bird hunting season going on. In other words, from September 1st to March 31st. This is the window in this state when you can be legal hunting, chasing, or pursuing *something* be it wild birds or game farm birds.

I guess it would be to easy to just print "No hunting, chasing, or pursuing Wild Birds from April 1st to August 31st." :?


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

It sounds to me as if the law allows for a single flush of wild birds so long as the dog or you don't actively try to harass or kill the birds following that initial flush. As Trooper said, if he's out in the woods, and his dog busts some birds, is he liable for harassment? I don't think they would put people in that position, otherwise, any shmoe out hiking with his dog would be breaking the law if they happened upon birds. I think they just want you to not push or harass birds more than from an initial contact, and certainly they don't want you trying to kill them. The law even said you could have a blank pistol on you.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

I read it the same as chaserofallbirds- you get one flush per bird, no season restriction. You read section (1) with (a) and learn you may not harass, catch, kill or injure the birds outside of the season. Then you read (1) with (c) which provides rules for out of season dog training. Therefore, we know you _can_ train on wild birds outside of the hunting season and you can even carry a blank pistol. Then we have the side note from whomever answered my email, and without any citation to the law, he or she tells us the bit about one flush is not harassing, but two is. Which on a theoretical level I agree with, but on a legal basis it's kind of questionable.

The law clearly states that dog training on wild birds is legal so long as you don't harass, catch, capture, kill, injure, or at any time, possess the birds. To me then the key is the definition of harassment, since the other words all have pretty simple definitions. Harassment typically would include chasing widlife, but since the whole point of this section of the code is about the legal way to train dogs on wild birds, I'll guess that the "one-flush" rule is the interpretation that a CO would give you in the field. I don't see any training technique that would not including chasing birds (ie harassing them) and so if harassing = chasing, then why would anyone have bothered to write this code section?

If anyone ever gets busted on this, give me a call and we'll take it to court.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

I understood it in the past as you could not train on wild birds after March 31, period. What you posted does not make that clear. The question in my mind is if this hard date and rule has somewhere changed. I could easily train pointers on wild birds without having them harm, kill, or chase them down. What was posted above seems a bit vague from what I previously thought the law read.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

This is probably one of those vagueries in the law designed to make people think they can't do something, when it is actually legal, for the reason that experts don't think it would be beneficial to wildlife to be out chasing them around, although no hard evidence proves it is actually harmful. I, personally, would probably give the birds a break during brooding season, just because it seems to me they could benefit from it. We all know that adult birds can fly, allowing them to escape, but it may not be a good idea to do that to young birds, who may not be able to fly yet. Before the eggs have been laid and the chicks have hatched, I see no problems with busting a few coveys. I guess just go at your own discretion!


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## vdogs (Sep 22, 2007)

The response does seem to be more than a little "muddy". Years ago, there was a law stating we must not pursue/train on upland game w/dogs after March 31st.

I really don't think the answer lies in the "Law" as much as it lies in Hunter ethics. We all know come April 1st..birds will be going about their nesting activities. Even just flushing them once can result in broken eggs or possibly, an abandoned nest. 

Really, it's probably best we don't bother them at all (except where necessary such as Lek counts).. until at least mid August. JMHO :wink: 

Later,

Rick


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

> it's probably best we don't bother them at all ... until at least mid August


I'd say because of the heatstroke as much as anything!

Also, let's not throw all the species into one big bundle. I agree that chasing chukar in the summer is a bad idea, but grouse are another matter. Grouse are perfectly capable of eluding a dog by mid-July. Not that they will fly far, but it's great fun and training to move them once and then walk the other way. I'm sure they are all back together in an hour- no worse for wear.


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## vdogs (Sep 22, 2007)

Trooper said:


> Also, let's not throw all the species into one big bundle. I agree that chasing chukar in the summer is a bad idea, but grouse are another matter. Grouse are perfectly capable of eluding a dog by mid-July. Not that they will fly far, but it's great fun and training to move them once and then walk the other way. I'm sure they are all back together in an hour- no worse for wear.


Troop..I'm not disagreeing with you completely but, every year a bunch of us ride the Paiute Trail in late July on Atv's. We consistantly come across broods of Blues on the trail..many of which the chicks are no where near ready to avoid an "unsteady" dog. Now, if a dog is 100% broke..I guess that makes a difference. Mine are not trained to that point. :wink:

Rick


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

You are absolutley right, I wouldn't intentionally chase the really little guys, but I think you'ld be surprised how well even young birds can fly if they have to, not far mind you, but I can't imagine there are many grouse chicks that can't make it 6 feet up into a tree by August and most a lot sooner (at least by me). You are also right in that this is pretty much only a game for pointers, young birds are often surprisingly slow on the ground and I'm sure a flusher wouldn't have much trouble catching one. I guess I've drifted pretty far from my origional intent which was just the pre-March and after-July time-frames where a little scouting and dog-training tune-up is the order of the day. I don't condone running dogs when birds are on nests or have small chicks.


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## InvaderZim (Sep 7, 2007)

What the helll is a chukar? :mrgreen:


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## Bearman (Apr 30, 2021)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Typical bureaucratic response. But here's how I read that.
> 
> It's unlawful to train on wild birds unless there is some sort of bird hunting season going on. In other words, from September 1st to March 31st. This is the window in this state when you can be legal hunting, chasing, or pursuing *something* be it wild birds or game farm birds.
> 
> I guess it would be to easy to just print "No hunting, chasing, or pursuing Wild Birds from April 1st to August 31st." :?


Dude it clearly says it is lawful as long as there is no chase or kill. So sick of people who can’t read law.


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