# Wasatch elk, Too many cow permits?



## goofy elk

Over the past few years, I've noticed the cow elk herds shrinking 
dramatically on public grounds on the Wasatch. Last year there 
were 3000 cow permits issued, this year, Theres even more ..
Wasatch current crk .. 1,650 cow permits.
Wasatch Avintiquin .. 900 cow permits originally, more have been added.
Central Wasatch .. 1,450 cow permits .

That's 4,000 + cow elk permits , most of which open on October 6th ..
Plus there were unlimited archery elk permits as well, cows were legal ..

After spending 4 days in the Strawberry valley area this week, Many of
the hunters I spoke with mentioned the lack of cows ..
Or the fact they had seen more bulls than cows, this was com-in on the
bow hunt . 4 or 5 years ago you would literally see 100's in the same time
span in the same areas . This leads me to some concern for the Wasatch
elk herd ...

I put this topic up hopping to hear some of the Wasatch elk observations
that have taken place, and those that will with the spike/cow hunts Oct 6th ..


I know there were a few great bulls taken on the LE hunt, along with a
fair number of average (290-315) bulls as well.. But as of yesterday,
there were still a lot of empty tag holder running around trying to fill them.

What did you see on the Wasatch this year?, what do you think?


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## JuddCT

This is the first year I spent anytime on the wasatch. Most of my experience comes off the manti, Lasal, and north slope. I've had great success at finding elk of all classes. I wasn't hunting them, but I plan on it next year due to the sheer number of elk that I found. This was all done with very little effort. I'm not saying the herd is hurting or not. But there are a ton of elk up there. Even some huge bulls that have me thinking about switching my 15 LE points to this unit next year.


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## martymcfly73

I watch a herd of about 30 elk from my house almost every night from Cedar Hills. There are 4 bulls in the herd. Two spikes and a mature bull and a raghorn. The unit isn't hurting for elk.


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## ultramagfan2000

I spend allot of time in these areas and I too am concerned about the number of cow elk tags available. However, the drought this year has the elk scattered in smaller herds over a larger area. So I don't dare speculate as to whether there are less elk this year.


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## Duckholla

I have hunted the Wasatch for years. This year I saw more elk, cows and bulls than I have ever seen in my life on the Wasatch. I think your concern is warranted as it is our responsibility to question what the State does with a public resource however there are parts of the Wasatch unit that are literally crawling with elk on them. It's the biggest sleeper unit in the state if you want my honest opinion. Everybody just hunts the same area, every year, for cows and spikes. As a result, you see the impact. Take a walk through some of the quieter parts of the unit and I think you'd feel better about it. I do feel like the number of permits is slightly high but not excessive.

Just my .02


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## swbuckmaster

I think your correct goofy the state seems to like to operate on the extremes too many or to little. Cant find the happy medium. They will shoot it out and then blame it on something else. Could name several examples but it just makes me tired thinking about it.


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## 10yearquest

I hunted the current creek area on the bow hunt this year. It was the first time I have hunted there so i knew very little going in and It took some time to figure things out. In the uintas where I have hunted for many years higher is better but there you have a great road and very open country up high also I had a hard time finding anywhere to go very far from a road as there are roads practically everywhere! Where can you go in the wasatch to get two or three miles from a road? Anyway back to the point.There were places with alot of activity like rubs wallows and very beat in trails but those could have been made by a bunch of elk living small.. We did see more elk than previous years in the uintas but I cant really judge it to good yet cause its all pretty new. With what I saw and heard and had contact with elk wise I will not put in for LE there next year( 13 points) and I cant imagine that many cow tags being filled on that part of the unit. Maybe I need to look at other parts of the wasatch?


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

Most herds I saw this summer were around 20 head or so. The thing is though I never see large herds during the summers on the Wasatch. Typically I see large herds down on the Manti during the summer. This year as I had a LE tag I saw a very large amount of bulls. I literally saw well over a hundred different bulls in the couple of areas I hit during the hunt. I did not see as many cows but I think that is because I was where bulls hang out during the summer and not cows. Now last winter I did see hundreds of cows bunched up during the general rifle hunt. This is what I usually seen each winter. The elk all end up bunched together in drainages where they got pushed. The only thing that makes me worried about the Wasatch are the wolves I heard multiple times during the hunt. I also feel like the wolves are why I didn't see as large of herd bunched up and the elk seemed less vocal this year than I'm used to.


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## TAK

The furthest west I go on the Wasatch is Willow Creek or even North to Strawberry and East to 191 Indian Canyon. I have seen a ton of Elk between these area's but will say they are in places that I have not seen them before and not see Elk in places that are almost a given. Some of these places, even with drought don't make a diff because of the water ways. But Goofy I can see what your saying...

Here is my best take on it. I think something that has effected the Elk in the areas I haunt is these GAME FENCES! If I had a nickle for every Elk I have seen crossing SR 6 from Billy's to Emma Park Road.... Hell I would be on some Paid Elk hunt now! I see lots of Elk in the Spring making a migration from the Manti to the Wasatch and vise versa. In my little mind it makes perfect scence to me. For an example. I am sure more than me have seen Elk right by the Tucker Rest Area. Well Tuesday there was a 320ish bull and about 10 cows right on the fence wanting to go from the Manti to the Wasatch. Just about every year if I travel that area I end up seeing Elk crossing or close to crossing. Winter time even more. 

Now as far as these Wolves... I have not heard one myself, but I have been told by two people that I have no reason not to believe have. One was closer to the Strawberry area and the other was closer to the Avintiquin area.....


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## pheaz

Goof, After spending 23 days on the archery LE Wasatch I would have to agree with you. There didnt appear to be many cows that I seen. They where mostly scattered in bunched of 15-20. IMO Overall I think the unit is short on cows in the "AREAS" I was hunting. There was a 1-2 bull/cow ratio in most areas. I was up Wolf Creek Ranches doing a bugling party the other night. The security guards where talkin to me about the lack of cows in WCR this year. In the past up WCR we would see 500-600 cows during any night on a bugling party. They may just be in different areas but I highly doubt it.


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## GeorgeS

Having just finished helping my brother and his friend with their LE Wasatch elk tags - I can definitely say we didn't see near the numbers of cows that we normally see in this area. It could be because there were so many LE tags given out (300) and maybe all of the pressure pushed them and the bulls into "no man's land". BUT I am concerned that the huge number of cow tags for the Wasatch units will decimate the herd. I understand the drought, but thousands of tags? I guess we'll see what happens next year.


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## JERRY

Last year was a mild winter and success was low for the late season and early season cow hunts. Thus, they offered more tags to alleviate the surplus. (NOT CONCERNED)

(WHAT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT IS THE DROUGHT THAT HAS HIT THE WEST.) If it continues it will not matter if we don't kill any of these animals. They will starve to death. 

I say giving out the tags is both a necessity, and a blessing. Let some people fill their freezers, and keep these elk from being corpses on the mountain.


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## bloodtrail

I didn't hunt the Wasatch this year for archery since I am not seeing the cows any more. Way too many tags!!!


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## Fowlmouth

goofy elk said:


> Wasatch current crk .. 1,650 cow permits.
> Wasatch Avintiquin .. 900 cow permits originally, more have been added.
> Central Wasatch .. 1,450 cow permits .
> That's 4,000 + cow elk permits ?


What about Wasatch West? Or is that the Central Wasatch you listed?
I have a Wasatch West cow tag.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

Fowlmouth said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wasatch current crk .. 1,650 cow permits.
> Wasatch Avintiquin .. 900 cow permits originally, more have been added.
> Central Wasatch .. 1,450 cow permits .
> That's 4,000 + cow elk permits ?
> 
> 
> 
> What about Wasatch West? Or is that the Central Wasatch you listed?
> I have a Wasatch West cow tag.
Click to expand...

Yeah that would be under the Central he is referencing. The whole Wasatch area is ginormous! Here are the totals I found online:

Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Alpine 40
Muzzleloader Wasatch Mtns, Avintaquin 200
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Avintaquin 300
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Avintaquin 200
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Avintaquin 200
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Currant Creek 200
Muzzleloader Wasatch Mtns, Currant Creek 150
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Currant Creek 800
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Currant Creek 300
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Currant Creek 200
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Diamond Fork 100
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Diamond Fork 70
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, East Heber 50
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, East Heber 40
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, East Heber 40
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Park City 20
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Salt Lake 60
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Springville 100
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Springville 70
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Timpanogos (antlerless elk) 50
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Timpanogos (antlerless elk) 30
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Wallsburg 50
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, Wallsburg 30
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, West (antlerless elk) 680
Any legal weapon Wasatch Mtns, West Heber 20

Right about 4,000 tags.


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## wapiti67

After hunting from Aug.18th through Sept. 23rd, I'd say the numbers of cows are UP...they are just not in the normal areas...I saw elk where you never see any..and the typical ridges that you see hundreds of cows on had NOTHING all season...weird


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## flyfitch

Way too many elk on the wasatch right now in my opinion. I think that is the problem with the low deer herds. Only my opinion. I'm not an expert.


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## TAK

Talked to a buddy last night that I trust in what he tells me, and he said there is a lack of BULLS! All he seen was Cows for the last month while on the Mt....


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

TAK said:


> Talked to a buddy last night that I trust in what he tells me, and he said there is a lack of BULLS! All he seen was Cows for the last month while on the Mt....


Tell that to the thousands of cam pics I collected this summer. All bulls! In fact took my wife up for fun last night so she could hear some bugles. We got up there with about 30 mins of light left. We were able to call in 3 separate bulls in that time.


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## jahan

I can't believe that anyone can say there are a lack of cows or bulls in this state. Elk may not be in there normal places, but there is definitely not a lack of them.


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## bwhntr

jahan said:


> I can't believe that anyone can say there are a lack of cows or bulls in this state. Elk may not be in there normal places, but there is definitely not a lack of them.


+100!!!


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

jahan said:


> I can't believe that anyone can say there are a lack of cows or bulls in this state. Elk may not be in there normal places, but there is definitely not a lack of them.


+1! Boom roasted!


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## TAK

jahan said:


> I can't believe that anyone can say there are a lack of cows or bulls in this state. Elk may not be in there normal places, but there is definitely not a lack of them.


Did anyone say STATE? We are talking on the Wasatch! Hey sit back and listen while the grown-ups talk kid!


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## bwhntr

Oh boy...here comes the fat kid. 8:33 and you're already out of donuts?


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## TAK

bwhntr said:


> Oh boy...here comes the fat kid. 8:33 and you're already out of donuts?


Funny you would say that as the keys are kinda sticky with dognut oosz!

And by the way I burnt of the fat this last week!


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## clean pass through

Plus its not donuts any more ............. ITS BAGLES! Get it right!


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## bwhntr




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## proutdoors

I spent time on the Wasatch during the archery and rifle seasons, and spent a week scouting/hunting with my uncle's muzzy hunt, I didn't notice a decline in cow numbers at all. I did however notice an INCREASE in bulls, both mature and immature. I like what I saw this year, in fact I intend to apply for an archery permit on this unit in 2014 when my waiting period is over........that is how 'concerned' I am about the health of this unit.....!


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## dkhntrdstn

I archery hunted for elk for the first time this year up there. I seen more elk this year in place i have never seen elk before. I talked to a buddy that seen nothing but big bulls in a area i have never seen elk before.I seen cows and big bulls. What I have seen in the pass there was more elk this year then years pass.Im looking forward to some scouting trips next summer to hunt again.


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## TEX-O-BOB

There are too many elk in this state across the board. Not just in the Wasatch unit. We need to kill WAY more of em. Then may be our deer will have a fighting chance. This whole state is an elk petting zoo. If you're not seeing elk while out in the woods you need to open your eyes.

I mean c'mon, a guy with an LE rifle elk tag hunts an average of 2.5 days and enjoys a 85% success rate on mature bulls. How is that not an example of an elk petting zoo? Trouble is, everyone thinks that that is NORMAL hunting. I got news for you entitlement complex havin whiners, IT AINT!


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## elkfromabove

I have a Wasatch West cow tag and my daughter has a spike tag, so we're going to hunt together. We're actually joining, for the first time, a family elk camp (My sister, BIL, nephews, nieces, etc.) that has been going on for years and I'm told there isn't a problem finding cows. I'll have to report later. However, maybe the numbers of cow tags is actually a benefit to the herd because of the drought. I know they issued additional cow tags in some areas to prevent further damage to the winter range.


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## goofy elk

The majority of permits opened today, lets hear some first hand reports of how it went...


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## TAK

goofy elk said:


> The majority of permits opened today, lets hear some first hand reports of how it went...


WOW!


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## TEX-O-BOB

WOW what?


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## TAK

TEX-O-BOB said:


> WOW what?


Read WOW! Thats what... WOW!


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## goofy elk

It used to be common to see herds of 40+ together in many areas on the Wasatch.

The last couple years its been groups of less than 20 ..

What size elk herds did everyone see this years?

Anyone else have an experience like TAK? , No elk at all?.....


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## proutdoors

More bulls means smaller herds during the rut, think about it......!


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## goofy elk

proutdoors said:


> More bulls means smaller herds during the rut, think about it......!


From 1995 up until 2 years ago, it was common to see 40-50 cows with
a dozen bulls scrapping over them on the Wasatch, Maybe see 300-400 head a day.

Just curious what other hunters are seeing this year ..


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## wyoming2utah

Keep in mind, Goofy, that the reason cow elk permits are given is to manage the herd size to pre-set objectives. If you want to see more cows, I would suggest pushing the DWR to issue more bull tags! If the DWR were to reduce bull/cow ratios on the Wasatch, they wouldn't have to issue as many cow tags!


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## proutdoors

wyoming2utah said:


> Keep in mind, Goofy, that the reason cow elk permits are given is to manage the herd size to pre-set objectives. If you want to see more cows, I would suggest pushing the DWR to issue more bull tags! If the DWR were to reduce bull/cow ratios on the Wasatch, they wouldn't have to issue as many cow tags!


TOUCHE!!


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## dark_cloud

I will agree with you goofy........I dont see anymore bulls then what i seen 8 years ago. I have seen less cows. The biggest herd of cows I saw this year is 21, and I have been on the mountain every weekend and 9 weekdays since the archery hunt. Most of the herds I have seen have been 5-11 cows.


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## TAK

goofy elk said:


> It used to be common to see herds of 40+ together in many areas on the Wasatch.
> 
> The last couple years its been groups of less than 20 ..
> 
> What size elk herds did everyone see this years?
> 
> Anyone else have an experience like TAK? , No elk at all?.....


Talked with a meat cutter in this area today and he told me that he has had very few spikes come in but a grundle of cows.


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## TAK

proutdoors said:


> I spent time on the Wasatch during the archery and rifle seasons, and spent a week scouting/hunting with my uncle's muzzy hunt, I didn't notice a decline in cow numbers at all. I did however notice an INCREASE in bulls, both mature and immature. I like what I saw this year, in fact I intend to apply for an archery permit on this unit in 2014 when my waiting period is over........that is how 'concerned' I am about the health of this unit.....!


As you should! Kinda remindes me when the Ute Tribe was catching all the Elk off the Uintas to sale. The next year a simple cow call had any hot to trott bull on the run to ya!


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## wapiti67

Opening day of the archery, I had a herd of over 300 cow/calves at 100 yards...guess there aren't any big herds of cows


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

wapiti67 said:


> Opening day of the archery, I had a herd of over 300 cow/calves at 100 yards...guess there aren't any big herds of cows


Prob on the Manti?


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## TAK

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> wapiti67 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Opening day of the archery, I had a herd of over 300 cow/calves at 100 yards...guess there aren't any big herds of cows
> 
> 
> 
> Prob on the Manti?
Click to expand...

No he was up on the Wasatch. This spring my wife and I watched a giant herd of cows and calves with 11 spikes in it. It was a really big group of elk! In fact I seen another herd weeks later with maybe even more elk in it. Not trying to say there is a LACK or elk, but the numbers are less than 2 years back. But as the heading tells us... TOO MANY COW PERMITS? The big "?" is what we are discussing. Now with the 900 plus tags on this unit alone, what will the following few years hold?

Avitiquin speaking.... So know that we have a starting point with the 900 cows, lets factor in more tags that the Ute Tribe is offering on thier land. I looked last night and I think they have close to 300 if I am reading it right. So just how many cows do you really think is in the area???


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## proutdoors

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> wapiti67 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Opening day of the archery, I had a herd of over 300 cow/calves at 100 yards...guess there aren't any big herds of cows
> 
> 
> 
> Prob on the Manti?
Click to expand...

Since his son had a WASATCH LE elk tag...I don't think so!!! :roll:


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## goofy elk

I've had a lot of reports the last few days from the Wasatch, 12 degrees at Renegade 
Monday morning! And LOTS of cows harvested, some still hits the ground yesterday.

Sounds like Trout creek was surrounded and most of the herd was shot!? 

Some other areas in Current Creek produced a high number of cows .

Avitiquin was a bit slower, haven't herd any reports of Timp/Cascade ares..?..

Every little group (3-8) around Strawberry was still getting HAMMERED yesterday ..

I'm changing scenery, headed onto the Manti til the big storm moves in.


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## wyoming2utah

Good...it sounds like some hunters are having some success and those cow tags are going to good use!


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## proutdoors

wyoming2utah said:


> Good...it sounds like some hunters are having some success and those cow tags are going to good use!


A-FREAKING-MEN!


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## Elkoholic8

Well here is what I know about the elk on the Wasatch this year. I have spent a good amount of time on the unitl betweent he archery hunt, a buddies LE hunt, and the spike hunt last weekend. We have had cameras all over the place since July. Most cameras would have anywhere from 800-1400 pictures on them in 3 weeks time. Tons of cows, spikes, and calves. Some areas just had bulls until early September, now they have a good mix of big bulls, medium bulls, and small bulls with cows, calves and spikes. One huge thing we have noticed this year is alot of cows have 2 calves with them. I would say more than 50% of the cows have 2 calves and probably 30% of the remaining cows had just one calf. I don't see how there is or will be a shortage of cows anytime soon. Our group had several cow tags last year, and I know there was not a high success rate on cows last year in the late season because of the snow. I'm guessing this year will be alot like last year, where there will not be alot of cows killed onthe late hunts. 
During this years hunt we filled 3 out of 5 cow tags, (the other 2 missed their chance) and no spikes. The elk wew alot harder to hunt this year with the lack of snow. They were harder to see and extremely hard to sneak on because of the dry ground. 

The point is, with a herd as big as the Wasatch and most of the cows having 2 calves, the DWR has to issue alot of tags just to keep the herd in check. Add the tough hunting conditions, and the success rates drop meaning the next season they will have to issue more, just to keep up with the natural recruitment. 

I would have to say, they need to issue more bull tags. There are a ton of bulls on that unit. I htink they could easily issue 10-20% more tags without hurting anything.


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## bullsnot

I did a ride along with the Division on elk classifications this year. I hunted deer and elk this year on the Wasatch. I have reviewed the numbers extensively. I have had long discussions with the biologists. There are PLENTY of elk on the Wasatch, they are over objective, and there has NOT been too many cows tags issued on the Wasatch this year. If you believe otherwise you are lacking information, period.


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## martymcfly73

goofy elk said:


> I've had a lot of reports the last few days from the Wasatch, 12 degrees at Renegade
> Monday morning! And LOTS of cows harvested, some still hits the ground yesterday.
> 
> Sounds like Trout creek was surrounded and most of the herd was shot!?
> 
> Some other areas in Current Creek produced a high number of cows .
> 
> Avitiquin was a bit slower, haven't herd any reports of Timp/Cascade ares..?..
> 
> Every little group (3-8) around Strawberry was still getting HAMMERED yesterday ..
> 
> I'm changing scenery, headed onto the Manti til the big storm moves in.


Oh no it's a massacre! No more elk on the Wasatch! They are all dead! Oh the humanity.


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## goofy elk

And bump this back up for grunt_S....


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## Longfeather

My Daughter has a Diamond Fork tag and there have been no cows seen. We've hit it hard and hunted 5 differn't days from sunup to sundown. Last week we hiked to the top of one mountain chasing 4 elk but they all turned out to be rag horn bulls.

Seen bull elk, Lot's of deer (some really nice bucks), moose, and bear and cougar tracks but no cows.

We've hunted Diamond fork, Sheep creek and Tie fork, up high and down low, away from the road etc... The cows are just not around. If they are, they must be hidden and not making any tracks. I also haven't seen very many hunters so maybe the tags were filled on the rifle or bow.

This is by far the weirdest cow elk hunt I've been a part of. If the DWR want the elk shot they need to extend the early November hunt. On the Diamond fork side they aren't getting killed. 

If any of you see any this week post them up.


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## jahan

Something about these later cow hunts is they can look tremendously different depending on the amount of snow. The elk can be 5 plus miles away in a different area. There are cow hunts that will be void of elk if there is not enough snow to move them into the area. I have a cow tag that has both low and high country. They are at the very top and still in the thickest part of the timber. In a couple weeks they could be 5 miles away and down 3000 or so feet in the flats, it all depends on the weather. I can tell you, in the areas I have been the elk are there, but they are just not in there normal areas. I saw a herd of 200 cows, calves and a few spikes just outside of my unit at 10,000 feet and I also saw a group of 7 bulls hanging out together.


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## Longfeather

I agree the weather is playing a roll. We've seen deer up high and down low so if the deer are able to survive up high the elk are likely doing well as well.

Edit...Also the bull elk we have seen were bedded down by mid-morning and stayed that way until later in the afternoon. So they are getting plenty of feed during the night and aren't moving much during the day.


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## hockey

Elkoholic8 said:


> One huge thing we have noticed this year is alot of cows have 2 calves with them. I would say more than 50% of the cows have 2 calves and probably 30% of the remaining cows had just one calf.
> 
> The point is, with a herd as big as the Wasatch and most of the cows having 2 calves, the DWR has to issue alot of tags just to keep the herd in check.


Not to hijack this thread but it is VERY rare that a cow elk will have twins. Maybe what you are seeing is orphans cause momma got a tag put on her


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## blazingsaddle

Having hunted the Wasatch nearly my entire life. I would be one that would say that the unit is not hurting for elk. They are not issuing enough elk tags. That goes for bull and cow tags. The unit can handle it.
Every year for the last 10 plus years, we seem to see more elk and fewer deer than the year before. My friend had a LE archery bull tag this year. Between more than enough scouting, cameras, and hunting almost 20 days we were into elk almost every day. Once the pressure came from hunters, they elk were harder to find, but I know they didn't vanish. They just did what elk do, go where they feel safe. During the months before the hunt, an average day was 40-50 elk. One morning, we were amongst one of the biggest herds I have ever seen, 200+ head.
Although we only saw three truly big bulls, we saw more than enough young bulls this year. Lots of cows and calves as well.

I think if a unit doesn't pump out 330+ bulls like a factory, people feel its no good. I do think the top end bulls on the Wasatch are being targeted and slowly taken out by over issuing rifle tags in the rut. With that being said, I think the Wasatch elk population can sustain the number of rifle tags given. But I know what kind of unit it could be if they backed off the rifle tags and increased archery permits. (I know its wishful thinking)
Either way, I love the increase in tags in general. Without a waiting period, this unit could archery hunted every 4-5 years.


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## goofy elk

bullsnot said:


> I did a ride along with the Division on elk classifications this year. I hunted deer and elk this year on the Wasatch. I have reviewed the numbers extensively. I have had long discussions with the biologists. There are PLENTY of elk on the Wasatch, they are over objective, and there has NOT been too many cows tags issued on the Wasatch this year. If you believe otherwise you are lacking information, period.


So bullsnot,

Whats your "information" leading you to believe this year?????.....


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## Fowlmouth

There must still be a $hitload of elk on the Wasatch, enough that control permits are being issued for this year. I know in 2 weeks I hope to help thin the herd.  It will be interesting to see how many hunters there are this year chasing cows, and how many are successful. Oh hell, just get rid of the Wasatch LE and make it an open bull area.:shock:


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## wapiti67

I've been up on the Wasatch 3 times this year scouting and haven't had a day where I didn't see 200-300 head of elk...So much for all the doomsday talk...AGAIN


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## koltraynor

I just bought my cow control tag!


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## trclements

I saw more elk last year on the wasatch than I have in any of the 15 previous years I have been hunting it during the archery and rifle hunts. The herd is really healthy and I don't get all the doomsday talk. During the 2012 rifle hunt with 10 hunters in camp we killed 7 elk opening morning in one small area we hunt. Then last year in 2013 with 7 hunters in camp we killed 5 elk opening morning (should have been 7 but a couple of missed opportunities) in the exact same area and the herd was even stronger that year. There probably are some areas where the elk hare getting hit harder because of these control tags, but based on the numbers of elk we have seen and harvested the last couple of years the DWR is right about the elk herd being really healthy and able to sustain more permits.


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## johnnycake

Yeah, I'm gonna be picking up one of these control tags too. I hope I get the opportunity to shoot the very last cow on the unit! But seriously, during my turkey hunt on the wasatch I saw a minimum of 100 elk/day---and that was in close quarters, not glassing open ridges. There was a 50/50 ratio of cows/bulls too. I might just forego the drive down to the manti for the spike hunt too...


----------



## twinkielk15

I have a late season cow tag on the Wasatch and I'm also planning on spending most of the archery hunt there. Never hunted it before and have had very little scouting time. I had read that if you get off the road and in the timber, you'll fill your tag. I hope the herds are as good as people say.


----------



## goforbroke

I'll be the nay sayer. I see a lot fewer elk now in my usual places. Seeing more deer.


----------



## captain

I drew one of the Wasatch Expo tags last year. I had never hunted on the Wasatch before and can tell you that compared to the units that I am accustomed to hunting, the Wasatch has plenty of elk. I had a 362" gross bull down by noon on the first day of the hunt. I had passed on 20-30 other bulls before I pulled the trigger on this one, and saw two other bulls that would have been in the 340-350" range that I was unable to get on. On the way out we passed another group with a 14 year old girl that had harvested another bull that was over 350". I would guess that we saw well over 100 head of elk opening day. Once again I am not familiar with the "glory days" of the Wasatch unit, but I still think that there are plenty of elk on the Wasatch especially compared to other units in the state. I could see where the DWR could say that the number of elk on the Wasatch are over objective. Just my 2 cents.


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## goofy elk

While YES, there are alot of elk stiil on the Wasatch unit,
AND this has NEVER been a "dooms day" thread,
The bigger queaston is this.

Will issuing all these antlerless permit work?

Up to this point, The public lands are getting HAMMERED..
Pushing elk herds into the less roaded areas, private, or non-huntable sections.

This has been adressed at the RAC's but no reasonable anwers have been reached.

Somthing other than selling unlimited cow control permits needs to be done>>.IMO.


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## Finnegan

Such as...?

The reason the RACs have no answer is because there isn't one. Can't give a rational answer to a nonsense problem.

Most units get "hammered" regardless of permits because as far as the elk are concerned, a human is a human and an ATV is an ATV. So several units, the Manti for instance, get far more pressure than the Wasatch. If you shut the entire elk hunt down, that wouldn't change.

If I was King of the World and nobody but hunters mattered, I could fix your "problem" in a heart beat. Shut down a bunch of ATV trails. Problem solved. If wishes were fishes, eh? But we all know who'd be screaming like a bunch of gut-shot coyotes if the USFS did that.


----------



## goofy elk

I was thinking some type of insentive to landowners to allow private land
cow hunts on the Wasatch?????????

There seems to be some issues with elk staying on the Indian res on
the Avintiquin part----Some how address that???????

AND/OR, maybe finding a way to do elk herd objective counts on public land
elk-----Separating resident elk herds that stay on non huntable/private ground??

Then issue more practical antlerless permit numbers?????


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## nateysmith

Is there somewhere that states how many control tags were being sold for this year?


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## paddlehead

I just wrote a long and detailed response, but it was erased so I will summarize it.

I think people have been spoiled by the numbers of elk on the wasatch. Do I think they are giving out too many tags? Yes! However, if the wasatch is above real carrying capacity, some animals will need to be taken. I have hunted there a couple of times with friends (I did not have a tag), and thought it was awesome to see all the elk. If the nit can carry that many animals, let them live and give us the opportunity on such a large public land unit with so many animals.

I do no think there is a capacity issue. What I do think is this. The wasatch unit used to be home to a huge deer herd, say twenty years ago. There is speculation that elk out compete deer. We all know deer are the states cash cow. IF the theory is true, by reducing the elk herd, the deer will come back. This means more tags sales on a largely public land unit, and thus more $$$.

I personally think this very thing is going on right now in Rich, Cache and Box Elder Counties, The Cache used to be home to a huge elk herd 10-15 years ago. Lots of animals and great quality. As it sits now, they almost can't give archery tags away, literally! The herd is a mangy sampling of what it was. They gave out way too many tags and reduced the herd, specifically on the winter ranges that they share with deer. This was done to help deer winter. In fact, 2 winters ago, on a winter range that used to hold 500 plus cows for the duration of winter there was one, that;s right, ONE cow on the winter range. History is repeating itself, just farther south!!

It will be interesting to see if significantly reducing the elk in these units will actually help the deer. If it does, I am excited to see more and better quality deer. I am however saddened at the idea of not having these trophy quality units devoid of the elk that used to be there, especially since I have not draw my LE elk tag yet.


----------



## goofy elk

paddlehead said:


> I just wrote a long and detailed response, but it was erased so I will summarize it.
> 
> In fact, 2 winters ago, on a winter range that used to hold 500 plus cows for the duration of winter there was one, that;s right, ONE cow on the winter range. History is repeating itself, just farther south!!
> 
> It will be interesting to see if significantly reducing the elk in these units will actually help the deer. If it does, I am excited to see more and better quality deer. I am however saddened at the idea of not having these trophy quality units devoid of the elk that used to be there, especially since I have not draw my LE elk tag yet.


Yes------Winter grounds are telling the story!!!!!!!!!!!
Lots of awsesme areas the elk ARE GONE....


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## goofy elk

nateysmith said:


> Is there somewhere that states how many control tags were being sold for this year?


Cow controll permits are UNLIMITED .....Thousannds will be sold.


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## hazmat

Some of my family members used to have a cabin on the wolf creek ranch. And I will tell you it was absurd how many elk used that ranch as their summer range.then during the winter they would head for the fields. This is exactly why I laugh when the dwr says the unit is over objective and issue a crap load of public land tags for private property elk They get there elk counts during the winter and issue tags for elk that will never step foot on public ground during hunting season. If that is not a broken system then what is. Hell open wolf creek ranch up to hunting if they are that big of a problem


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## dkhntrdstn

goofy elk said:


> Cow controll permits are UNLIMITED .....Thousannds will be sold.


ok you think that many will be sold. How many will be filled not that many im for sure of that.


----------



## hazmat

dkhntrdstn said:


> ok you think that many will be sold. How many will be filled not that many im for sure of that.


I am guessing 20-30 percent sold will be filled just a guess. I know last year I seen cows dropping like flies in the area I was in. Cow elk hides hanging everywhere


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## NyteFyre22

*Elk are no where to be seen.*

Hunted Current Creek with a cow tag this year, and saw many hunters, but only saw two who filled their tags. 
Hunted that area w/spike tag last year and there were tons of shots, so I know the herd was there, but I was about an hour late and missed out myself.
Hunted Strawberry (spike again) the two years before that and I saw hundreds of hunters, but none had even seen anyone fill their tag.
I heard the moved LE to two weeks before the Spike/Cow hunt and this is scattering the herds to who knows where and they are selling tags like hotcakes knowing almost none will be filled.
The last few years I have seen stats for have been about 10-12% filled for both the spike, not sure about the cow.
I have never seen any shootable elk on the hunt, and I usually go for at least two full days, with lots of hiking, glassing, and waiting.


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## ARROWHNTR

I also hunt the current creek area we hunted for 50 mins when my wife shot a cow, and as a group went two for three with the third missing two different cows, and we only hunted saturday morning and where off the mountain by 10:00. As a group we saw over 100 head of elk, the bulls were screaming and we never saw another hunter except for on the road. The elk are there you just have to spend the time and know where they go when they get pressue, and it most likely not going to be where you are seeing other hunters


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## jahan

I love it, it gives plenty of opportunity and there are plenty of elk to go around. Folks, this is called hunting for a reason.


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## 4pointmuley

We had 6 cow tags in our group this last weekend for the Currant Creek unit. We hunted hard opening day only to see one 5 point bull. I couldn't believe how many hunters were at "Low Pass" and the "Red Ledges" area near Currant Creek reservoir. I'm done hunting cow elk in that area. Hopefully we be successful out by Fruitland this weekend.


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## swbuckmaster

We had one tag and hunted arround current creek and killed a cow on sunday. We only saw one bull and six cows. I also think there are way fewer cows then in years past because I used to see herds of 50 or more. Now its down to groups of 2 to 5.


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## wyoming2utah

The whole premise of this thread cracks me up...."the number of cows on the wasatch unit is shrinking"! Duh....isn't that the intent here? Hasn't the DWR been trying to reduce the number of cows on this unit for years now; hence the cow permits? Were some of you guys expecting to see more cow elk this year than in year's past or what? I don't get it...you guys are pissed that other hunters are able to go out and harvest animals?


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## berrysblaster

wyoming2utah said:


> The whole premise of this thread cracks me up...."the number of cows on the wasatch unit is shrinking"! Duh....isn't that the intent here? Hasn't the DWR been trying to reduce the number of cows on this unit for years now; hence the cow permits? Were some of you guys expecting to see more cow elk this year than in year's past or what? I don't get it...you guys are pissed that other hunters are able to go out and harvest animals?


Are you supposed to see less elk and have lower success when the population is supposed to be double what it should be?


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## phorisc

swbuckmaster said:


> We had one tag and hunted arround current creek and killed a cow on sunday. We only saw one bull and six cows. I also think there are way fewer cows then in years past because I used to see herds of 50 or more. Now its down to groups of 2 to 5.


When did you see herds of 50? and how many herds of 50?
Elk harems tend to accumulate at night to feed together but they also break up into their smaller harems during the day...At least thats what i've figured out through researching about elk...


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## DallanC

Saw alot of elk on the ML deer hunt, several large herds. Could have easily shot a cow a few times. Didnt realize I could have bought a cow tag at the time. Its ok, we are nearly out of freezer space for the year, couldn't deal with 2 elk.

-DallanC


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## phorisc

wyoming2utah said:


> The whole premise of this thread cracks me up...."the number of cows on the wasatch unit is shrinking"! Duh....isn't that the intent here? Hasn't the DWR been trying to reduce the number of cows on this unit for years now; hence the cow permits? Were some of you guys expecting to see more cow elk this year than in year's past or what? I don't get it...you guys are pissed that other hunters are able to go out and harvest animals?


I love how this board has accumulated with posts and people complaining that we're killing all the elk herd...and people complaining they ain't seeing elk...

Frankly I don't think the elk herd has anything to worry about when everyone just gives up and tries to come up with other excuses as to why they cant find a cow elk to shoot...

The truth is other hunters who haven't decided its the DWR's fault will fill their tags.

AND

When the harvest information comes in and you see how many elk were harvested then you can start complaining *IF* too many cows were harvested and that the DWR should not have sold so many tags...

Right now everyone should be hunting and trying to fill their tags.

Im not trying to be a jerk or anything I just think too many people are giving up. And second guessing what the DWR...

PS I am gonna take a guess that the next bunch of posts on the forum will be about the lack of deer or good size deers...Deer rifle starts soon...which clearly **sarcasm** is the DWR's fault too...


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## swbuckmaster

phorisc said:


> I love how this board has accumulated with posts and people complaining that we're killing all the elk herd...and people complaining they ain't seeing elk...
> 
> Frankly I don't think the elk herd has anything to worry about when everyone just gives up and tries to come up with other excuses as to why they cant find a cow elk to shoot...
> 
> The truth is other hunters who haven't decided its the DWR's fault will fill their tags.
> 
> AND
> 
> When the harvest information comes in and you see how many elk were harvested then you can start complaining *IF* too many cows were harvested and that the DWR should not have sold so many tags...
> 
> Right now everyone should be hunting and trying to fill their tags.
> 
> Im not trying to be a jerk or anything I just think too many people are giving up. And second guessing what the DWR...
> 
> PS I am gonna take a guess that the next bunch of posts on the forum will be about the lack of deer or good size deers...Deer rifle starts soon...which clearly **sarcasm** is the DWR's fault too...


Not trying to be rude just pointing out my observations i seen with your video posts ect. You are a new hunter and dont have the same perspective as someone that has been arround the block so to speak. You may think there are tons of elk or deer but if you had hunted 20 years ago for deer you would sing a different tune. If you hunted the wasatch unit for cow elk 10 years ago you may sing a different tune. There always seems to be a pattern in the way the division issues tags. Its boom bust. Over issue kill the herd out and then years of rebuilding it back up. Id rather see a smoother trend.


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## wyoming2utah

swbuckmaster said:


> Id rather see a smoother trend.


I think the DWR would too...but they don't have that same magic crystal ball that goofy and a lot of other hunters own!


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## phorisc

swbuckmaster said:


> Not trying to be rude just pointing out my observations i seen with your video posts ect. You are a new hunter and dont have the same perspective as someone that has been arround the block so to speak. You may think there are tons of elk or deer but if you had hunted 20 years ago for deer you would sing a different tune. If you hunted the wasatch unit for cow elk 10 years ago you may sing a different tune. There always seems to be a pattern in the way the division issues tags. Its boom bust. Over issue kill the herd out and then years of rebuilding it back up. Id rather see a smoother trend.


I may be a new hunter but that does not explain why some hunters are crying about no elk and others are finding plenty of them...

We also shouldn't ASSUME that because of the past "ways" the DWR did things they will continue to do it that way. I'd like to be more optimistic than that. Unless some DWR guy comes out and says "oh yeah we kill the herd off every 10 years so we can rebuild it" I doubt thats their plan.


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## Mr Muleskinner

winter, water and nutrition are the primary determining factors in wildlife. They typically come in boom/bust cycles as well. Not smooth trends. Not defending the DWR but everybody is prone to mistakes, over reactions or lack of action. Mother Nature rarely nails it perfectly every year and often doesn't even come close to what is ideal.


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## jahan

I respect your opinion swbuckmaster, but I don't think you are looking at the whole picture. Where I hunt elk, I have been seeing a lot more smaller herds this year. Last year there were larger groups, but I saw less of them. I am not sure exactly why, but my guess is the wet fall we have had and the lack of snow at high elevation that there has been the last couple years in this location. I also think it has to do with more pressure from more tags. Elk are very adaptive and I don't think there is anything to worry about. Like I said before it is a great opportunity to get out and hunt without hurting the elk herds long term.


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## TAK

I think the only real issue is how factual the numbers are?


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## martymcfly73

Here's my formula for counting elk. Go out for 4 hours. Don't leave the truck. Multiply the # of elk I see by the square footage of the unit. Subtract the number of deer and then multiply that # by the square root of 590.


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## Mr Muleskinner

martymcfly73 said:


> Here's my formula for counting elk. Go out for 4 hours. Don't leave the truck. Multiply the # of elk I see by the square footage of the unit. Subtract the number of deer and then multiply that # by the square root of 590.


not even a factor for latent selenium on the truck tires? That formula sucks.


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## swbuckmaster

The dwr says their method of counting elk or deer is more accurate. They pick a good day and take a hand full of beans "bulls/bucks" then take a hand full of corn "cows, does". They take a goat "predators" and a hula hoop. They put the hula hoop on the ground and throw the corn and beans up in the air. What ever lands in the hoop they multiply by ten. What ever the goat eats they say would have died any ways. If anyone complains they say you need to hike further. They then raise are liscense fees and taxes give themselves a raise and repeat.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Mr Muleskinner said:


> not even a factor for latent selenium on the truck tires? That formula sucks.


When tag revenue drops like a rock and people show up in masses at the racs complaining of poor hunting they cut tags and blame bad weather, selenium, and brain worms.


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## swbuckmaster

No wonder Anise left the big game coordinator position in utah and went to airzona to manage rabbits.


----------



## JuddCT

I can see both sides of the argument, but I think those that have issues with the tag numbers should complain to your legislator and not the DWR. They set the total population objective (if I'm not mistaken). DWR just has to abide so when counts (flawed as they may be) show increasing elk herds they issue more cow tags. Instead of harassing the order taker change the decision makers opinion. Good luck!


----------



## Catherder

JuddCT said:


> I can see both sides of the argument, but I think those that have issues with the tag numbers should complain to your legislator and not the DWR. They set the total population objective (if I'm not mistaken). DWR just has to abide so when counts (flawed as they may be) show increasing elk herds they issue more cow tags. Instead of harassing the order taker change the decision makers opinion. Good luck!


+1. These antlerless tag number threads are all the same. Its always "greedy DWR" this, "incompetent DWR" that. As I understand it, the DWR is only a single player at the table in setting population objectives. Agriculture, the Forest Service, and others, along with the Wildlife Board have just as much say as the DWR and it is simply impossible under the current system for the DWR to unilaterally raise population objectives. Furthermore, the DWR IS required by law to manage the herds to the determined population objectives. And about the only tool they have to do that when there is an "overpopulation" is to issue more tags. If one is really concerned about this, he/she would be best served talking with the Farm Bureau and the Forest Service about a specific area than constantly b%&*#ing on the internet about the DWR.

The one argument I could accept as potentially being valid that the DWR might be able to fix is that elk on private property are hardly touched in these depopulation hunts and the public land elk are hammered hard. That may require an "out of the box" solution like providing markedly more private landowner tags in areas where it is a concern and maybe cutting public tags by a similar number. But some folks don't like that either.


----------



## goofy elk

We now have the 2013 success rates for Wasatch general elk..

Some of last years Wasatch antlerless success rates.

#4132 Diamond fork 10.2%
#4133 Diamond fork 4.5%--------70 permits, 1 cow and 2 calves harvested!
#4123 Avintaquin 15 %
#4124 Avintiquin 13.8% -----------76 permits, 8 cows harvested.
#4128 Currant creek 12.9%
#4135 East Heber 18.5%---------40 permits, 4 cows 3 calves harvested.

These are the lower success numbers, and there are some hunts ranging higher,
BUT, to go from these numbers to unlimited cow control permits is rediculas..IMO.

The herd sizes are CLEARLY affecting the general bull hunt as-well.

General archery spike dropped to a 5.7% success rate in 2013 on Wasatch west.
Avintaquin was down to 6.7%

Muzzleloader spike on Currant creek was 2.6% succees rate.............

These numbers are showing cow control permits completly un-called for
on public land on the Wastch unit in my oppion.


----------



## martymcfly73

Clearly these numbers mean the DWR has gotten their wish. They have single handily decimated the wasatch elk herd to spite us. They have made sure to kill off the remaining elk. Oh the humanity!!


----------



## goofy elk

Well there Koltrynor, 
NOT the DWRs 'wish" for stater's.....

Catherder is 100% correct!

The cow control permits on the Wasatch this year are because of the wildlife board.
Winter estamates verus herd objective were only sightly over on Avitaquin
and W west...---And appears Currant creek numbers are shewed by the S slope herd.

It's clear Kolt, you dont care if the Wasatch is reduced to general season type quality hunting.........

But I do.


----------



## martymcfly73

goofy elk said:


> Well there Koltrynor,
> NOT the DWRs 'wish" for stater's.....
> 
> Catherder is 100% correct!
> 
> The cow control permits on the Wasatch this year are because of the wildlife board.
> Winter estamates verus herd objective were only sightly over on Avitaquin
> and W west...---And appears Currant creek numbers are shewed by the S slope herd.
> 
> It's clear Kolt, you dont care if the Wasatch is reduced to general season type quality hunting.........
> 
> But I do.


Dear chicken little,

It's a long way off from GS type hunting. You're the guy who cried wolf. Time and time and time and time and time and time again. You at right though. 99% of people all these hunting forums wish they were you. I know I do....


----------



## berrysblaster

swbuckmaster said:


> No wonder Anise left the big game coordinator position in utah and went to airzona to manage rabbits.


Ouch SW ouch...and it was owls not rabbits


----------



## swbuckmaster

It wasnt a hit against him it was a smart move getting out of the political mess


----------



## goofy elk

^^^^^^^ YES, Political mess it IS.....:!:......^^^^^^^^^^^

What the hell happened to common sense in todays world??????


----------



## ARROWHNTR

Spent another weekend on the wasatch, talked to the DNR guys up checking tags they said that most of the hunters they had checked hadnt even seen an elk and a lot of them had hunted the entire week, and had only checked a handful of successful hunters.

Our group hunting in the same area saw close to a 100 head of elk opening day killed two out of three tags. The third killed this last saturday and we probobly saw 50-75 elk and never went back into the area we hunted opening weekend. I also pulled trail cams in two other areas we normally hunt, but didnt this year on the rilfe hunt, and both cameras had elk on them almost every day last week.

Im not saying I agree with unlimited control tags but I also dont think its a doom and gloom as people think it is. 

The elk are getting a lot of pressure and there not in the same old easy spots everyone has hunted the last 10 years, but there are still a lot of elk if you are willing to hike into the harder stuff and find them.


----------



## berrysblaster

ARROWHNTR said:


> Spent another weekend on the wasatch, talked to the DNR guys up checking tags they said that most of the hunters they had checked hadnt even seen an elk and a lot of them had hunted the entire week, and had only checked a handful of successful hunters.
> 
> Our group hunting in the same area saw close to a 100 head of elk opening day killed two out of three tags. The third killed this last saturday and we probobly saw 50-75 elk and never went back into the area we hunted opening weekend. I also pulled trail cams in two other areas we normally hunt, but didnt this year on the rilfe hunt, and both cameras had elk on them almost every day last week.
> 
> Im not saying I agree with unlimited control tags but I also dont think its a doom and gloom as people think it is.
> 
> The elk are getting a lot of pressure and there not in the same old easy spots everyone has hunted the last 10 years, but there are still a lot of elk if you are willing to hike into the harder stuff and find them.


Just remember there are twice as many elk as there should be...


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

goofy elk said:


> Well there Koltrynor,
> NOT the DWRs 'wish" for stater's.....
> 
> Catherder is 100% correct!
> 
> The cow control permits on the Wasatch this year are because of the wildlife board.
> Winter estamates verus herd objective were only sightly over on Avitaquin
> and W west...---And appears Currant creek numbers are shewed by the S slope herd.
> 
> It's clear Kolt, you dont care if the Wasatch is reduced to general season type quality hunting.........
> 
> But I do.


It doesn't have to be reduced to make it happen.

Just make it happen. More general hunting is a good, good thing.

That would in turn make the existing general units better! Yippee!


----------



## ARROWHNTR

berrysblaster said:


> Just remember there are twice as many elk as there should be...


Berry,

Im defianlty not saying the divisons counts are accurate, or that it is right to unleash unlimted cow tags on any unit that is not managed for 0 elk, but I really dont think the populations are hurting as bad as some think. I will say that I dont spend near as much time as you probobly do south of strawberry or in the waters/sheep creek and diamond fork areas so I cant speak much to those areas.

My family has hunted the wasatch for generations, just like yours, we have seen the ups and downs in the heards, and frankly right now there are just as many elk in the areas we hunt as there has ever been, if not more.

However I will say that in the last couple of years the elk have changed, I think a lot of it has to do with the mass die-offs of the pines. Areas that once were great dark cool beading and protection areas for the elk are now thined out and covered in downfall. I think this is why people who have hunted the same draw, ridge or canyon for years are not seeing the elk like they used to. Its not becasue the DNR killed them all off, its because they have adapted to the changes and pressure and found new places in the oakbrush and aspens where few people ever go.

The last couple of years I have found myself venturing into areas that rarely ever held elk and finding tons of them. This year was no exception, I was into elk almost every day of the archery hunt, killed a Good bull and a cow and had a ton of fun, and only ran into two people out hunting in almost 20 days on the mountain. The rifle hunt has been great our group went 3 for 3 and saw tons of elk and not one other person in the field, just tons of people on the roads complaining about the lack of elk.

I know there are areas that have been affected more then maybe the areas I hunt, but I have just seen way too many elk the last two years to buy into the whole doom and gloom theory.


----------



## berrysblaster

ARROWHNTR said:


> Berry,
> 
> Im defianlty not saying the divisons counts are accurate, or that it is right to unleash unlimted cow tags on any unit that is not managed for 0 elk, but I really dont think the populations are hurting as bad as some think. I will say that I dont spend near as much time as you probobly do south of strawberry or in the waters/sheep creek and diamond fork areas so I cant speak much to those areas.
> 
> My family has hunted the wasatch for generations, just like yours, we have seen the ups and downs in the heards, and frankly right now there are just as many elk in the areas we hunt as there has ever been, if not more.
> 
> However I will say that in the last couple of years the elk have changed, I think a lot of it has to do with the mass die-offs of the pines. Areas that once were great dark cool beading and protection areas for the elk are now thined out and covered in downfall. I think this is why people who have hunted the same draw, ridge or canyon for years are not seeing the elk like they used to. Its not becasue the DNR killed them all off, its because they have adapted to the changes and pressure and found new places in the oakbrush and aspens where few people ever go.
> 
> The last couple of years I have found myself venturing into areas that rarely ever held elk and finding tons of them. This year was no exception, I was into elk almost every day of the archery hunt, killed a Good bull and a cow and had a ton of fun, and only ran into two people out hunting in almost 20 days on the mountain. The rifle hunt has been great our group went 3 for 3 and saw tons of elk and not one other person in the field, just tons of people on the roads complaining about the lack of elk.
> 
> I know there are areas that have been affected more then maybe the areas I hunt, but I have just seen way too many elk the last two years to buy into the whole doom and gloom theory.


I think there are only a couple of doom and gloomers. I hope I'm not one of them, but I do believe there is enough evidence to raise some serious concern about the management decisions being made on the unit.

There are definitely elk, on the year I'm nearly to 800 head 297 bulls and 482 cows. However, over the past 3 years, the antlerless hunts have seen a consistent drop in success rates. At the same time population estimates have exploded. That right there should be enough of a flag to say something is not right. A single conversation with Dale Litchey will make you say just wtf was that?!


----------



## ARROWHNTR

berrysblaster said:


> I think there are only a couple of doom and gloomers. I hope I'm not one of them, but I do believe there is enough evidence to raise some serious concern about the management decisions being made on the unit.
> 
> There are definitely elk, on the year I'm nearly to 800 head 297 bulls and 482 cows. However, over the past 3 years, the antlerless hunts have seen a consistent drop in success rates. At the same time population estimates have exploded. That right there should be enough of a flag to say something is not right. A single conversation with Dale Litchey will make you say just wtf was that?!


Thanks for your response, I didnt mean to lump you into the Doom and Gloom crowd, I know you understand the wasatch better then most and are worried about the future of the unit with these insane population estimates and basically unlimited cow tags, and I am to.

My frustration is with the people who go up one or two weekends a year and expect to kill a cow or spike with limited or little effort, and then bi**H and moan about how the DNR has decimated the elk on the Wasatch.

I understand that lower success rates on antlerless hunts usually indicate a lack of game to hunt, but I also think the drop in sucess rates is related to the effort put in by hunters. The elk have gotten used to constant pressure the entire fall and they are adapting to it and most hunters are not.


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## TAK

ARROWHNTR said:


> Thanks for your response, I didnt mean to lump you into the Doom and Gloom crowd, I know you understand the wasatch better then most and are worried about the future of the unit with these insane population estimates and basically unlimited cow tags, and I am to.
> 
> My frustration is with the people who go up one or two weekends a year and expect to kill a cow or spike with limited or little effort, and then bi**H and moan about how the DNR has decimated the elk on the Wasatch.
> 
> I understand that lower success rates on antlerless hunts usually indicate a lack of game to hunt, but I also think the drop in sucess rates is related to the effort put in by hunters. The elk have gotten used to constant pressure the entire fall and they are adapting to it and most hunters are not.


Fact is there are much fewer Elk! I don't care if you burn through 400 gal of gas or if you wear out 10 pair of boots! The numbers are BULLCHIT! Even on the private lands you see far less elk.


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## goofy elk

Mr Muleskinner said:


> It doesn't have to be reduced to make it happen.
> 
> Just make it happen. More general hunting is a good, good thing.
> 
> That would in turn make the existing general units better! Yippee!


Here what absolutly DOES not make sense to me..

IT ALREADY IS general season spike hunting on the Wasatch!

What the hell do you gain by making it general season any bull?????

So you can shoot a raghorn????????---Like the Wasatch was 25 years ago?

And in turn doing this , losing the LE elk hunt on the Wasatch?

Stupid.....IMO.


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## goofy elk

How about now? 

CRAZY amount of preasure on the Wasatch elk herd in 2014..:!:...


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## Mr Muleskinner

goofy elk said:


> Here what absolutly DOES not make sense to me..
> 
> IT ALREADY IS general season spike hunting on the Wasatch!
> 
> What the hell do you gain by making it general season any bull?????
> 
> So you can shoot a raghorn????????---Like the Wasatch was 25 years ago?
> 
> And in turn doing this , losing the LE elk hunt on the Wasatch?
> 
> Stupid.....IMO.


Unlimited archery tags for any bull. That is why. Yes I would like to see less LE hunting. Far less. 25 years ago people had respect for ALL bulls.

I think LE entry trophy hunting was the stupid idea.


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## wyoming2utah

TAK said:


> Fact is there are much fewer Elk! I don't care if you burn through 400 gal of gas or if you wear out 10 pair of boots! The numbers are BULLCHIT! Even on the private lands you see far less elk.


What about from a helicopter or airplane?


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## hazmat

wyoming2utah said:


> What about from a helicopter or airplane?


Ya frrom a helicopter is real effective. Especially when they do it in the winters.and most of those elk they count summer on private property. So give out more public land tags makrs a whole lot of sense right


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## berrysblaster

As much as beating a dead horse is so much fun, this is dumb. Some people refuse to recognize another's point regardless of evidence or support...just leave it be!


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## johnnycake

I will admit, the elk are way more spooked this year on the muzzleloader than I've ever seen. And that is not just on the wasatch, but the manti too. But, I like the increased opportunity as well so you win some, you lose some. Do I think the numbers are down? Not really, but by the time archery hunts, le hunts, muzzy deer, rifle elk, and rifle deer have been chasing them without a break larger than three days this is a much more challenging muzzy season. Hopefully I can get it done tonight, but if not it has been awesome seeing all the bucks that made it through the season and the huge flocks of turkeys! I've never seen so many birds!


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## Fishracer

Anyone that was in the hills on the opener of the rifle elk hunt knows how bad its getting. It is dam near a safety concern with so many people with a cow tag in their pocket. The elk have no where to go, it is just a slaughter up at Current creek. It is ridiculous how many cow tags are issued. I have been and always will be a opportunity hunter, not a trophy hunter, but this is getting out of control! It is sad to see the decline on this mountain over the past 7 years. I have always tried to have faith and trust the DWR and Wildlife Board when they first starting issuing so many tags. I always thought it was in the best interest of the elk heard, but i can't see supporting this any longer. Someone is going to get shot.-O,-


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## goofy elk

:O--O--O

Back to the top for TS 30....

Started the Wasatch cow elk threads in 2012......


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## swbuckmaster

The group I helped out last weekend shot the last 5 on the unit







We cheated though with privite property. I wouldn't want a public tag on the wasatch the way it's managed now

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## swbuckmaster

It was also on the wasatch mtn east heber unit. 

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## 3arabians

swbuckmaster said:


> It was also on the wasatch mtn east heber unit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I just heard a collective "DOAH" from all the tag holders without connections.


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## goofy elk

I've re-red this thread twice now, very telling/interesting comments.
Again, this topic was NOT a meant the be a 'dooms day' thread when I started it over
3 years ago. But, O-my how this unit has changed!
Again, with 2016 looming, The DWR plans at this time is to add more antlerless permits
than EVER! Adding private land vouchers and permits. On top of LE and control tags.
Also allowing hunters to harvest 3 elk per year......

There are also large number of past long time posters that have all but disappeared
from this forum I would love to hear what their currant opinions are on this issue are now.

ARROWHNTER
bullsnot
TEX-o-BOB
Proutdoors
wapiti67
Elkoholic8
Jahan
blazingsaddle
trelements


Anyone else out there with thoughts...?...

And way to go SW, leave it to you to kill the last 5...:!:...;-)


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## ARROWHNTR

I am still here, my stance has not changed much, I still cannot talk to numbers in the hobble creek, diamond fork or area south of strawberry as I don't make it over that way much. I still disagree with issuing unlimited cow tags, it is lazy and bad management.

My family had one of the best elk hunting years in a while, we killed 6 cows and a spike during the archery and rifle hunts and had opportunities at others but our freezers are full. We saw more elk this year then the past couple and lots of spikes and new calves. I helped a friend on the late hunt and about got ran over by a herd of 150 cows one day and saw several other large groups.

I do feel that the divisions counts are not accurate, and I don't like the way they are trying to manage the herd, but in the part of the Wasatch that I hunt they are a long ways from in trouble.


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## goofy elk

I'd like to see the Wastatch elk unit changed to match the deer units....
Like it used to be.

That would be a good starting point to help fix this elk situation IMO.


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## nebocreel

FYI- The elk numbers in the state are a few thousand over the agreed population. The number was set by agreement with each of the stakeholders (agriculture, public land reps, sportsmen groups, non-consumptive etc) a number of years ago. The DWR is required by law to do what is necessary to abide by that agreement. Antlerless harvest is not keeping the population growth in check. Also, most antlerless hunters in the state are not keen on bailing off down into some deep dark canyon to shoot a cow. Most want to harvest a cow somewhere reasonably close to a road. This may be part of the problem on the Wasatch. The elk are fast learners and understand pressure from predators and they end up in places that they don't feel pressure. Much of that is on private land it seems. This is one reason the DWR is trying to work out a program with private landowners ( that are not in a CWMU or LOA) to allow hunters to hunt on their property thus creating pressure that will help move the elk back onto public land. Not sure if this will work but they are trying to figure out why hunters in many areas of the Wasatch are not seeing the number of elk that they have in the past, even though the counts they get by aerial sightings show that the unit is still over population objective. If any of you have some good insights and or solutions to the Wasatch unit quandary please let them know.


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## TAK

goofy elk said:


> I've re-red this thread twice now, very telling/interesting comments.
> Again, this topic was NOT a meant the be a 'dooms day' thread when I started it over
> 3 years ago. But, O-my how this unit has changed!
> Again, with 2016 looming, The DWR plans at this time is to add more antlerless permits
> than EVER! Adding private land vouchers and permits. On top of LE and control tags.
> Also allowing hunters to harvest 3 elk per year......
> 
> There are also large number of past long time posters that have all but disappeared
> from this forum I would love to hear what their currant opinions are on this issue are now.
> 
> ARROWHNTER
> bullsnot
> TEX-o-BOB
> Proutdoors
> wapiti67
> Elkoholic8
> Jahan
> blazingsaddle
> trelements
> 
> Anyone else out there with thoughts...?...
> 
> And way to go SW, leave it to you to kill the last 5...:!:...;-)


 TEX O BOB has not been back on the unit since killing his elk in 11? 12? Pro outdoors is bat **** crazy these days, no really he is WAY OUT THERE!

I still hunt the unit, way less elk than I have ever seen. More people than I have ever seen also.


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## goofy elk

nebocreel said:


> even though the counts they get by aerial sightings show that the unit is still over population objective. If any of you have some good insights and or solutions to the Wasatch unit quandary please let them know.


It is my understanding with the DWR that the Wasatch has not been
' aerial counted ' since 2012...........


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## woundedjew

Get away from the roads and you will find them. We filled 4 tags just this weekend. Saw 3 large groups with mostly cows, and a few spiked and rag horns. Probrably a total of 150 elk combined in these groups. Saw another group of 20-30 while driving down daniels on the way home from the highway The places I have always hunted are not hurting. We saw plenty during the archery, clear through the rifle hunt. Yes there are alot of people, but learn to get away from the crowds and the elk are still there.


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## johnnycake

goofy elk said:


> It is my understanding with the DWR that the Wasatch has not been
> ' aerial counted ' since 2012...........


I thought I remembered a post by berryblaster a year ago where he flew the unit with the DWR...


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## swbuckmaster

Anyone with half a brain knows the counts are BS. When the elk numbers 10 years ago were half as high as they are alleged now you could find elk all over the unit and success rates were high. Now the success rates are in the toilet and elk on public land are rarely seen. There isn't 7,000 to 10,000 elk hiding in the deep dark canyons on public land like some like to say. What elk are left are on privite property. The dwr knows this and that's why they keep issueing more tags. It's a cash cow for them and people are stupid enough to keep buying the tags. 

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## RoosterKiller

I go to the same area on the wasatch every year. This year I saw more elk than last year,but not as many as from 3 years ago.I fill my cow tag every year and I have notice that it is not a lack of elk from year to year as much as were they end up in any given year. This year I saw a lot of elk taken vs last year. I am not concerned at this time and I h[pe that the herd stays healthy.


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## RoosterKiller

nebocreel said:


> FYI- The elk numbers in the state are a few thousand over the agreed population. The number was set by agreement with each of the stakeholders (agriculture, public land reps, sportsmen groups, non-consumptive etc) a number of years ago. The DWR is required by law to do what is necessary to abide by that agreement. Antlerless harvest is not keeping the population growth in check. Also, most antlerless hunters in the state are not keen on bailing off down into some deep dark canyon to shoot a cow. Most want to harvest a cow somewhere reasonably close to a road. This may be part of the problem on the Wasatch. The elk are fast learners and understand pressure from predators and they end up in places that they don't feel pressure. Much of that is on private land it seems. This is one reason the DWR is trying to work out a program with private landowners ( that are not in a CWMU or LOA) to allow hunters to hunt on their property thus creating pressure that will help move the elk back onto public land. Not sure if this will work but they are trying to figure out why hunters in many areas of the Wasatch are not seeing the number of elk that they have in the past, even though the counts they get by aerial sightings show that the unit is still over population objective. If any of you have some good insights and or solutions to the Wasatch unit quandary please let them know.


You hit it. Hunters are not willing to go where the elk are for a cow.I walk into a canyon and the elk are everywhere and no one there except my party. I have told people where to go and they tell me they won't go there for a cow. oh well my gain.


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## hazmat

RoosterKiller said:


> You hit it. Hunters are not willing to go where the elk are for a cow.I walk into a canyon and the elk are everywhere and no one there except my party. I have told people where to go and they tell me they won't go there for a cow. oh well my gain.


I would advise you take a look at the whole herd in general. yes you may have a secret little honey hole for now but guess what if they keep slaughtering the elk up there its gonna push more passionate elk hunters right in your little honey hole. it sounds like from your post you go up there once a year for your hunting trips maybe a few camping trips a year. people who live on the unit most of the year will be the first to tell you the elk numbers are getting bad. so keep thinking your honey hole is the only place that matters on the unit and that you are the only one who will go dark and deep to find it. you will be surprised


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## hazmat

nebocreel said:


> FYI- The elk numbers in the state are a few thousand over the agreed population. The number was set by agreement with each of the stakeholders (agriculture, public land reps, sportsmen groups, non-consumptive etc) a number of years ago. The DWR is required by law to do what is necessary to abide by that agreement. Antlerless harvest is not keeping the population growth in check. Also, most antlerless hunters in the state are not keen on bailing off down into some deep dark canyon to shoot a cow. Most want to harvest a cow somewhere reasonably close to a road. This may be part of the problem on the Wasatch. The elk are fast learners and understand pressure from predators and they end up in places that they don't feel pressure. Much of that is on private land it seems. This is one reason the DWR is trying to work out a program with private landowners ( that are not in a CWMU or LOA) to allow hunters to hunt on their property thus creating pressure that will help move the elk back onto public land. Not sure if this will work but they are trying to figure out why hunters in many areas of the Wasatch are not seeing the number of elk that they have in the past, even though the counts they get by aerial sightings show that the unit is still over population objective. If any of you have some good insights and or solutions to the Wasatch unit quandary please let them know.


would this explain why close to half the elk they collared last year all ended up getting harvested on public land opening morning of the rifle this year. I talked with a cwmu owner in the area he has seen a drastic drop in elk numbers as well he is getting just as frustrated as the public


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## goofy elk

johnnycake said:


> I thought I remembered a post by berryblaster a year ago where he flew the unit with the DWR...


Pretty sure baster was putting up the graphs and pic's of the 2012 count
in that post.....


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## swbuckmaster

We used to hike in with horses and mules 2 hours to a spot to hunt cows. We rarley saw anyone in this area. My wife's uncle hunted it so long you could turn the horses loose and they would find their way back to camp without you. That place hasn't seen a cow in several years and we no longer hunt it. Shame because there were actually hundreds of elk in there.

I'd like to see the tough guys hiking in further then we were to dig out a cow. Heck to tell you the truth people without horses have no buisness hunting cows half that far. 



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## johnnycake

goofy elk said:


> Pretty sure baster was putting up the graphs and pic's of the 2012 count
> in that post.....


That could be it. I thought though it was a recent flight as part of the elk initiative he was involved in.


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## RoosterKiller

hazmat said:


> I would advise you take a look at the whole herd in general. yes you may have a secret little honey hole for now but guess what if they keep slaughtering the elk up there its gonna push more passionate elk hunters right in your little honey hole. it sounds like from your post you go up there once a year for your hunting trips maybe a few camping trips a year. people who live on the unit most of the year will be the first to tell you the elk numbers are getting bad. so keep thinking your honey hole is the only place that matters on the unit and that you are the only one who will go dark and deep to find it. you will be surprised


As with any area that I hunt I hunt there because I know there to be game.When the game moves out so do I.Just like any passionate hunter. Who knows maybe someday we will meet in your honey hole.Maybe you will be surprised.


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## blazingsaddle

Since my last post in this subject in 2012, my view on the elk situation has changed, somewhat. I feel like I know parts of this unit very well. The change for elk is happening very quickly in my eyes. Since 2012 I have been directly or closely associated with 3 LE rifle hunts, 1 LE archery hunt, multiple cows tags including early archery, late and control hunts, and even a spike tag or two on the Wasatch. 
Simply put, the elk numbers are fewer than they used to be. The success rates prove this. My own experiences tell me this. I do agree they seem to be using the land differently than they used to, utilizing different places for safety. No doubt the elk are harder to find than years past. On a complete side note, some one mentioned the HUGE die off in pines on the unit, I wonder what effect this has on the elk and how they use the land?

All this being said, I do not believe the unit is wrecked, yet. Elk tags can be filled, only with more work than before. This unit used to be a gimme for a cow with a bow. Just maybe the unit was way over objective in years past? I do feel if they continue to issue tags as freely as they are currently doing, the unit is headed for huge problems. How many more years can it handle? Im not sure.....not many, if any.

I am through and through an opportunity guy, not a trophy guy. What I see happening is the elk are now the opportunity animal. Years ago it was the deer. (remember the glory days when archery was statewide or even pre option 2?) With the spike tags and the unlimited cow tags the switch is pretty obvious. 
Where we archery hunt deer, 70% of the people we talk to are only hunting elk. The pressure on the elk is greater now than ever before.
To sum up my feelings, I'm ok with fewer elk than say 6-7 years ago, but at some point very soon the onslaught of cow tags has to stop. The division does does show some dents in its past when it comes to mismanaging herds as we all know. 
If I could make one change to the elk management on the Wasatch it would deal with the rifle rut hunts, but thats for another day! But a guy can wish right?


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## berrysblaster

So we resurrected the horse just to beat it to death again?


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## goofy elk

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This horse ain't dead til we get those antlerless permits GONE!

So blaster, you would know for sure,
last Wasatch elk aerial count was done 2012? correct?


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## berrysblaster

goofy elk said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> This horse ain't dead til we get those antlerless permits GONE!
> 
> So blaster, you would know for sure,
> last Wasatch elk aerial count was done 2012? correct?


Last unit wide flight happened in January 2011 to my knowledge, 2013 they flew the east side. I'm not aware of any other flights.

Hearing straight from Covy there will be no control permits and an extremely limited amount of draw permits proposed for this year and probably next year. What that means is anyone's guess, I'd like to believe this is gonna happen but I've been hearing it for three years now.

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## goofy elk

Thats GREAT news!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And about time. I'd lay money down it happens this time.
Tons of local pressure hitting the DWR about the Wasatch elk problem.

I know a lot of guys don't want to hear this, but I would also recommend
removing spike hunting for two years,
50% reduction on LE bull permits, And we are pointed toward recovery.


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## swbuckmaster

It's hard to cut spike tags at the same time your growing the cows without going through boom bust cycles. It also compounds the problem when your managing with minimum age. I'd rather see the spike tags dissapear along with the minimum age and manage bull to cow ratios and give out more bug bull permits. It makes it hard with rut rifle shoots.

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## goofy elk

swbuckmaster said:


> I'd rather see the spike tags dissapear along with the minimum age and manage bull to cow ratios and give out more big bull permits.
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I agree------State wide!


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