# Utah dwr can kiss



## VaderOrlag (Oct 30, 2014)

For literally years I have done everything to try and draw a tag to hunt for my first time. Never once have I been successful. This isn't for monster elk or deer units. ing cow elk tags. No wonder people poach. you dwr!


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

if you dont mind me asking what unite are you putting in for. For your cow tags ?


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## VaderOrlag (Oct 30, 2014)

Currant creek


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## Hunterchick (Dec 4, 2014)

Yes!!! This guy gets it!! Now we just need a lot more people on board and we can get some stuff changed!


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## VaderOrlag (Oct 30, 2014)

I have never gotten any tag.


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

You don't need to draw a cow tag to hunt cows on Current Creek. Simply go buy a general elk tag (your choice of archer, rifle, or muzzy) and then you can buy an antlerless control permit in addition. If you're lucky, or just plain good, you could kill both a spike and a cow. You can do all of this on over the counter tags which are available to purchase right now.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

archerben gets it! It's really pretty simple when you read the guidebook.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)




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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Just waiting for this to get pulled down...


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## VaderOrlag (Oct 30, 2014)

Great to know Ben, thank you. Fowl mouth and berry, first of all I'm not the brightest crayon in the box. So that coupled with big game regulations sometimes being confusing lead to my lack of understanding. But I'm glad that you have it down so well fowlmouth, I'm sure you've helped many new hunters that may be struggling to get a grasp on things. Not trolling or looking for attention. It was a rant about something that frustrated me. if I wanted attention I have a wife for that. While I'm no Stephen hawking I am smarter than to try and have a good time trolling a wildlife forum. I'm trying to build skills to pass on to my kids so that we can enjoy quality time together in the future and they can perhaps share the reverence for this land I have.


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## nocturnalenemy (Jun 26, 2011)

There are lots of good people on this forum that can help you. All you need to do is ask. Drawing a tag is getting harder and harder these days and the application process is part of it. I helped a long time friend apply for the first time this year and he didn't draw anything. Sometimes that's the way it goes. That said, very few antlerless tags or general buck tags take 3 or more years to draw.

Sometimes knowing the question to ask is the hardest part. archerben has provided a great starting point if you want to hunt Currant Creek.

General Bull/Spike tags are on sale now. If you're interested in other hunts, here is a list of the remaining big game tags. Some you can buy now. Some go on sale next week.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/remaining-permits.html


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

The DWR is an administrative agency that is not entirely to blame for your unfounded frustration. You may want to tell off the wildlife board or maybe the state legislature as they actually set the regulations the DWR enforces. It's like someone telling off the IRS--really you need to tell off your congressman. 

There is TONS of hunting opportunity in this state if one is willing to look. If your post would have been titled: "New hunter needs advice on maximizing hunting opportunity" you would have more help than you could imagine from the fine folks on this forum including myself. As it stands now I will let you be.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

VaderOrlag said:


> Great to know Ben, thank you. Fowl mouth and berry, first of all I'm not the brightest crayon in the box. So that coupled with big game regulations sometimes being confusing lead to my lack of understanding. But I'm glad that you have it down so well fowlmouth, I'm sure you've helped many new hunters that may be struggling to get a grasp on things. Not trolling or looking for attention. It was a rant about something that frustrated me. if I wanted attention I have a wife for that. While I'm no Stephen hawking I am smarter than to try and have a good time trolling a wildlife forum. I'm trying to build skills to pass on to my kids so that we can enjoy quality time together in the future and they can perhaps share the reverence for this land I have.


I'm a license vendor and am happy to get you a permit over the phone, I'll be at work around noon. It'll be $85 if I remember right, $50 for the spike tag, $35 for the antlerless control permit.

My number 435-671-3024.

Next time rather than throw another entity under the bus like you did above, feel free to ask what YOU are doing wrong. I don't hunt antlerless so I may be wrong here but I don't recall I single LE antlerless hunt in Utah that takes more than 3 points to draw. This means that more than likely it's not the state that's at fault it's your lack of understanding. Like has been stated above there are a bunch of people here that are more than happy to help a fella out with answers to questions like this. There also a bunch of us who are are incredibly sick of rants and rhetoric like the original post.

Feel free to call me anytime and I'll point in the direction of some elk to hunt and how to get a tag to hunt them!


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## Watcher (Dec 31, 2008)

*Only the archer lose out*

I'm in the same boat. I'll be arching for elk with an over the counter tag. With my limited success on archery elk - even taking a cow is pretty tough. It sure would be nice to let those in possession of an archery tag to buy a muzzy or rifle cow tag to hunt the appropriate season.

... that is, if thy're really trying to "knock down" the out of control elk population.

signed,
I'm deserving of special treatment and a whiner.
:Cry:


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## VaderOrlag (Oct 30, 2014)

berrysblaster said:


> I'm a license vendor and am happy to get you a permit over the phone, I'll be at work around noon. It'll be $85 if I remember right, $50 for the spike tag, $35 for the antlerless control permit.
> 
> My number 435-671-3024.
> 
> ...


Believe me the first place I point fingers is myself. However in my defense I had called the dwr office and spoke to a woman yesterday who told me " I haven't drawn in a couple years either. Thad how it happens sometimes"

My frustration lies in others drawing cow tags consistantly and I draw nothing. However, given the information archerben relayed to me I need to concede that those people perhaps simply get a spike or any bull tag and a control tag as well. I can't tell you how many people I have asked about the drawing process and how to be successful in getting hunting rights and it hasn't been mentioned.

Now that I know what Ben told me I have nothing more to say. I don't care about trophy hunts. Only time with the family and a full freezer. I appreciate your help with this.

*edit- my phone conversation with dwr was me asking what I can do to get on those hunts. I was not angry till after the phone call haha


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## Uber (May 18, 2014)

If you want. You can send me PM (private message) and ill be more than happy to go over the odds for each of the units you would like to hunt and show you some others that are easier draws.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

VaderOrlag said:


> Believe me the first place I point fingers is myself. However in my defense I had called the dwr office and spoke to a woman yesterday who told me " I haven't drawn in a couple years either. Thad how it happens sometimes"
> 
> My frustration lies in others drawing cow tags consistantly and I draw nothing. However, given the information archerben relayed to me I need to concede that those people perhaps simply get a spike or any bull tag and a control tag as well. I can't tell you how many people I have asked about the drawing process and how to be successful in getting hunting rights and it hasn't been mentioned.
> 
> Now that I know what Ben told me I have nothing more to say. I don't care about trophy hunts. Only time with the family and a full freezer. I appreciate your help with this.


 Although your initial post was a bit rough on the DWR, I'm glad you asked AND LISTENED (so to speak)! Not only did you get your answer on the hunt, you (and others) got a lesson on how the Utah wildlife management political system works, and it starts with YOU. Thanks for asking!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I kinda liked the OP.


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

Hopefully the flailing on the kitchen floor was for dramatic effect.....

Yea its getting a little harder to draw tags these days, but there aren't many cow tags that are taking more than 1-2 points for a guaranteed tag. Several are drawing with zero points. If you want a hard to draw area, buck up and pay your dues like the rest of us. There are several units that hold more elk than the currant creek area, that are drawing with 1-0 points.

There are 25,000 elk tags that just became available on the 14th. Buy a spike or any bull tag and hit the hills.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Well, look on the bright side. Assuming the applications were properly done, you now have 2 antlerless elk points in your pocket for next year. You can draw some real nice antlerless hunts with 2 points. You have a year to study it out too and figure out what you want.



VaderOrlag said:


> While I'm no Stephen hawking


Does Steven Hawking hunt? Why do I find that an odd visual? -Ov-


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

VaderOrlag said:


> For literally years I have done everything to try and draw a tag to hunt for my first time. Never once have I been successful. This isn't for monster elk or deer units. ing cow elk tags. No wonder people poach. you dwr!


Give my your DOB, SS# and a good CC number. I'm happy to help you apply.

If not please move. Based on your tone I would suggest Idaho.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

VaderOrlag said:


> Currant creek


How many points and what weapon?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Even if you get a tag for that unit id be surprised if you saw a cow and spikes are like hunting unicorns. All you have to do is do a search on this very same forum to see the wasatch current creek is in trouble for elk.

If you put your rifle down you could probably draw an archery deer tag every year. I've never not drawn an archery deer tag in my life. #utahriflehuntsucks


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Catherder said:


> Well, look on the bright side. Assuming the applications were properly done, you now have 2 antlerless elk points in your pocket for next year. You can draw some real nice antlerless hunts with 2 points. You have a year to study it out too and figure out what you want.
> 
> Does Steven Hawking hunt? Why do I find that an odd visual? -Ov-


That is not a strange Hawking visual, try the last couple of paragraphs here: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ppers-aliens-and-disturbing-abuse-claims.html


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

So the guy is PO'd at the DWR. . who on this forum doesn't get that way..Happy to see there are still some people on here that will give him some great info.. Don't need to pee down his back and tell him it's rannin, hell I just drew my first Archery Deer tag in 3 years. I'am 70 years old. I shouldn't have to draw for crap. . and PO'd? how many more hunts am I going to get? waiting to draw one every 3 years.And yes I've hunted Spike Bulls the years I didn't get a tag. and I'am o--for 3..I just love Archery hunting deer 51 years doing this other than the years I didn't draw.. And hate it when the DWR makes the call rather or not I get to hunt Deer!!!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Old Fudd said:


> So the guy is PO'd at the DWR. . who on this forum doesn't get that way..Happy to see there are still some people on here that will give him some great info.. Don't need to pee down his back and tell him it's rannin, hell I just drew my first Archery Deer tag in 3 years. I'am 70 years old. I shouldn't have to draw for crap. . and PO'd? how many more hunts am I going to get? waiting to draw one every 3 years.And yes I've hunted Spike Bulls the years I didn't get a tag. and I'am o--for 3..I just love Archery hunting deer 51 years doing this other than the years I didn't draw.. And hate it when the DWR makes the call rather or not I get to hunt Deer!!!


What archery deer tag took 3 years? There are LE hunts you can draw in 3-5...


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

Old Fudd said:


> And hate it when the DWR makes the call rather or not I get to hunt Deer!!!


So you suggest we let people decide on their own what and when they can hunt something? Isn't that kind of the whole purpose for having a DWR?


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> What archery deer tag took 3 years? There are LE hunts you can draw in 3-5...


This is 2nd year in a row (had 2 points) I didn't draw the Wasatch archery deer tag. Haven't been playing the points game...just put in for draw without other choices (we have cabin in that area) and came up empty handed.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

The tag is for the Boulders.. I did get an LE tag 7 years ago and it only took 8 years to get that one.,Books Cliffs.No i don't think we should let people decide where and when to hunt. I feel with so many youth tags left over every year. Why doesn't the DWR put the left overs in a pool where people over the age Say 66 get the left overs? Thats all I'am saying..As for 3 years to draw a Boulders tag. I think I phrased that wrong. I received a tag this year , So it was only 2 years, drew on the 3rd..


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Old Fudd said:


> The tag is for the Boulders.. I did get an LE tag 7 years ago and it only took 8 years to get that one.,Books Cliffs.No i don't think we should let people decide where and when to hunt. I feel with so many youth tags left over every year. Why doesn't the DWR put the left overs in a pool where people over the age Say 66 get the left overs? Thats all I'am saying..As for 3 years to draw a Boulders tag. I think I phrased that wrong. I received a tag this year , So it was only 2 years, drew on the 3rd..


 I proposed an "old geezer" tag on the mule deer committee twice, but all I got was a good laugh each time. (Kinda like my Medicare requests for payment to the hospital and doctors.)

The trouble is that when they put some of us out to pasture, we take the family with us 'cause the Ipads and smartphones become more important than spending time with dad/grandpa doing what he wants to do!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Sounds like we need more animals to allocate more tags to.........


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

I brought up the old people tags with the Asst. Director ,and he thought it was an excellent idea. I don't mean any freebies. Pay the same as anyone else.. I just figure after hunting Utah with a Bow for 51 years,and very high ethics, do I fall in line with the DH system?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> Sounds like we need more animals to allocate more tags to.........


If only it were that easy! While we were told on the Mule Deer Committee that any increases in populations and buck to doe ratios would be accompanied by a rise in tags, for the most part, all we're getting is increased population objectives and increased buck to doe ratio objectives as evidenced by the last Wildlife Board meeting. They simply raise the standards to provide better "quality" at some unknown time in the future instead of more opportunity as the herds grow.


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## hawkeye (Feb 18, 2008)

I am against allocating tags for youth, old folks or any other special groups for that matter. We have a large number of people applying for a limited number of tags. Everybody should stand in line and wait their turn. There is no need to prioritize one group over another. We are not doing our kids any favors by teach them that they are entitled to a tag at the expense of someone else who has been patiently waiting in line. If I were king for a day I would do away with all tag allocations for special groups.

Hawkeye


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Even qualifying for an old guy tag I still agree with you Hawkeye. Just get rid of the 2nd choice loophole and I would be fine.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

elkfromabove said:


> If only it were that easy! While we were told on the Mule Deer Committee that any increases in populations and buck to doe ratios would be accompanied by a rise in tags, for the most part, all we're getting is increased population objectives and increased buck to doe ratio objectives as evidenced by the last Wildlife Board meeting. They simply raise the standards to provide better "quality" at some unknown time in the future instead of more opportunity as the herds grow.


The real problem is that the WB, and the RAC and the _conservation orgs_, and the mule deer committee don't know how to grow deer. You can't increase deer or opportunity, until you address and solve the wildlife declines of the last 40 years. Until then its just politicians lying to each other about things they know nothing about.

You are barking up the wrong tree, you are looking to the very people that are destroying wildlife and hunting, that do not understand how to grow wildlife, to then grow wildlife and therefor opportunity. Its like looking to PETA to increase trapping opportunity.

Lee, it is that easy, if you understand the subject matter. If you want to increase opportunity, you have to increase wildlife numbers. But you and the current structure are incapable of that.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> The real problem is that the WB, and the RAC and the _conservation orgs_, and the mule deer committee don't know how to grow deer. You can't increase deer or opportunity, until you address and solve the wildlife declines of the last 40 years. Until then its just politicians lying to each other about things they know nothing about.
> 
> You are barking up the wrong tree, you are looking to the very people that are destroying wildlife and hunting, that do not understand how to grow wildlife, to then grow wildlife and therefor opportunity. Its like looking to PETA to increase trapping opportunity.
> 
> Lee, it is that easy, if you understand the subject matter. If you want to increase opportunity, you have to increase wildlife numbers. But you and the current structure are incapable of that.


 Ok, we'll be watching to see how you do it!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

elkfromabove said:


> Ok, we'll be watching to see how you do it!


I'm showing what has caused the past 40 years of declines, and documenting how that is happening again right now. I'm doing my part, you show me what you have done to increase deer on the mule deer committee, or with the UWC. I was not offered a seat, and we have been excluded from direct involvement in the RAC process. So you folks with a voice in the current system, show us what you have done. I've been showing you what I have done and what I am doing, and it does not involve sitting around a table accomplishing nothing with regard to real wildlife issues.

That old "what is your solution" line never was valid, and its even less valid now. I'm publicly working through the solution right now. You can hide behind cute little quips all you want, it won't change reality.

YOU show us how YOU are going to increase opportunity, that is your stated goal correct? What is the plan to do this? Solicit donations?


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Old Age a Special Interest Group.. Come On Man.. Get out there and find out how many of us are left. One day You'll be where we old folks are... Very Small percentage of us still attempt to hunt. Most people my age just said Scr--- it. to much crap filling ut the apps>


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Old Fudd said:


> Old Age a Special Interest Group.. Come On Man.. Get out there and find out how many of us are left. One day You'll be where we old folks are... Very Small percentage of us still attempt to hunt. Most people my age just said Scr--- it. to much crap filling ut the apps>


Not to mention no deer to hunt......


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Let me elaborate a little further, beyond what some of you may have read here recently.

I have placed approximately one ton of selenium salt(selenium 90 blocks) across two study areas this year. Along with around 300 pounds of magnesium chloride on one of these sights, and several other test sites. This is in addition to studying the on the ground, real world affects of pesticides on wildlife, specifically deer.

Here are some deer from the first selenium supplementation study I conducted several years ago:


















There are more. This area had average to subpar bucks, and a stagnate population prior to this supplementation trial. After supplementation the population increased, as did racks. With out a control group, I pulled the supplementation of this area to see what would happen, and it is currently in decline.

So by all means Lee, show us what you guys have done in the real world, show us how you are going to increase opportunity. You can't just say you support the NAMWC, and that opportunity is what you are about. You have to understand what those Tenets you are hiding behind mean, how and why they work, and show how implementation of them will get us to your goal of increased opportunity.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

middlefork said:


> Even qualifying for an old guy tag I still agree with you Hawkeye. Just get rid of the 2nd choice loophole and I would be fine.


don't worry, at the rate we're going people that don't put in for a first choice tag won't be able to draw a 2nd choice either. they'll all be gone in the first round.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

archerben said:


> You don't need to draw a cow tag to hunt cows on Current Creek. Simply go buy a general elk tag (your choice of archer, rifle, or muzzy) and then you can buy an antlerless control permit in addition. If you're lucky, or just plain good, you could kill both a spike and a cow. You can do all of this on over the counter tags which are available to purchase right now.


Yup, makes for some good eating too!


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

APD said:


> don't worry, at the rate we're going people that don't put in for a first choice tag won't be able to draw a 2nd choice either. they'll all be gone in the first round.


I may have to go to a RAC next year.

To support keeping the deer draw the same.

Especially when there is a GSD LE unit that I would like to hunt, but have to put in 5-7 years to draw.

It gives me an opportunity to hunt deer in Utah while waiting for that unit.

It also gives me an opportunity to group application with my buddies and hunt , while waiting for that tag.

Do I feel sorry about people missing out on the hunt, because they do not understand the draw system?

No, because that is part of the offseason work that goes into hunting. Finding out the numbers and learning the systems, to put yourself in a better position to draw good tags.

The draw systems are part of hunting and the more adaptable you are, the better off you will be.

TL;DR I like the general season deer draw the way it is.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Let me beat this dead horse with a few more whacks. If you have more deer, and know how to grow deer, the rest is superfluous, it does not matter. The sad part is, is that there are people that do not want this.


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