# More any bull units



## Baron83 (May 24, 2016)

Just curious if anyone would like to have more anymore bull areas, or like it as it is. I would personally like more any bull units but with a 4 or better rule.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Nope,
4 point or better won't work either. 
The youth hunts held on those units even allow them to shoot cows.


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

Yes. I would love to see a lot of our opportunity units such as manti and wasatch and others turn into more of a general season tag for brow tine bulls or better.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

After I draw my LE tag they can turn them all into open bull units. AFTER I draw my tag, of course.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Baron83 said:


> Just curious if anyone would like to have more anymore bull areas, or like it as it is. I would personally like more any bull units but with a 4 or better rule.


What units are you proposing changing?

Is there not enough area in the any bull areas already? Or is there not enough bulls?

Right now I like the mixture of any bull / spike units the way they are. Creating more any bull units will just make the LE plug that much worse.

And this opinion is from someone who does not apply for LE elk anymore.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I could go either way and can see the differing opinions from both sides...

I really do not like the idea of having a branch antlered bull hunt be a once in a lifetime hunt (like it currently is) and also don't like having to compete for space in the few any bull areas that currently exist.

But on the other hand....the current system keeps the quality a bit higher in the LE areas, spikes and cows are still quite tasty and I still enjoy seeing the big bulls during the spike hunt even if I can't shoot one.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Before the South Cache was made a LE unit it was any bull. You would see herds of cows in the hundreds with not a bull in sight.
If you found a bull bigger than a spike it was at best a little rag horn 4 and they were few and far between.
It took maybe 2-3 years of spike only to completely change the dynamics and start seeing bulls with 6-10 cows everywhere.
Of course I guess you could initiate "pick your unit" to control the hunter numbers and would still need to limit tags.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'd rather get rid of spike tags and increase the number of LE bull tags in 3 years.


-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I've very little experience chasing elk on the any bull units, but from what I've seen here and elsewhere the any bull units are turning out some really nice bulls and populations are increasing. I think regardless of how many any bull or spike units there are, the crowding issues are going to be the same, and I don't think success rates will change that much (over time that is, ignoring the first couple years after a switch). So what is the purpose you are hoping to achieve with more GS any bull units?

I would support something along the lines of breaking the Wasatch and Manti into smaller units, lowering the age objectives on a few of the LE units allowing for more tags, moving the rifle hunts out of the peak rut, switching the weapon allocation %s to skew to lower success rates, and a few other things. All of these would provide more opportunity to chase branch antler/mature bulls and help the LE elk draw be less like a OIAL hunt. And then there'd still be the GS any bull hunt options currently available.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

I'm of the opinion that only select units should be limited entry, so leave the book cliffs, southwest desert, and San Juan LE and turn the rest into open bull. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I think there is plenty of anybull opportunity and the any bull hunt seems to be increasing in success rates, year after year. 

Keep it the way it is. It would break my heart if the south cache was turned back into an any bull unit. As long as they keep the cap on the number of permits issued its fine the way It is. It's not like the anybull permits sell out the first week.

Once we are fighting the internet to get an anybull tag like we do for left over deer tags then the argument becomes more real. Eventually this will probably be the case.

There are several LE units that you can draw two or more early rifle tags in a lifetime with a little luck. Bonus permits? Not so much...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I'm of the opinion that only select units should be limited entry, so leave the book cliffs, southwest desert, and San Juan LE and turn the rest into open bull.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I completely agree leave 3-4 of the best units as le. Turn everything else GS. Reduce cow tags. It would be nice to be similar to Idaho or Colorado.


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## Baron83 (May 24, 2016)

I think some units could be broken down. And i agree the any bull units are getting better. But i would rather chase bulls any time not just 2 or 3 times in my life.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Baron83 said:


> I think some units could be broken down. And i agree the any bull units are getting better. But i would rather chase bulls any time not just 2 or 3 times in my life.


Why can't you chase bulls every year under the current system? I've seen a number of LE bulls this year hit the dirt that are smaller than some of the GS bulls---some of those GS bulls that were killed this year are very nice bulls.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Baron83 said:


> I think some units could be broken down. And i agree the any bull units are getting better. But i would rather chase bulls any time not just 2 or 3 times in my life.


You know that elk are not exclusive to Utah, right? There are plenty of OTC and general tags available in the surrounding states. It seems the crux of some hunter's mentality is to spend $50 on a tag, have a spot within one hour of their home and be guaranteed a chance at a mature bull every year...


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

CPAjeff said:


> You know that elk are not exclusive to Utah, right? There are plenty of OTC and general tags available in the surrounding states. It seems the crux of some hunter's mentality is to spend $50 on a tag, have a spot within one hour of their home and be guaranteed a chance at a mature bull every year.


Bingo. Heck, I've been plotting and running through what I could try offering ridgetop to entice him to adopt me next year or just at a minimum somehow tag along...I'd even be a gentleman and not try to steal his pie, and focus on one of the other bulls. I'd gladly buy a NR gs any bull tag, plane ticket and the works for a chance at the kind of bulls he, 3arabians, and a couple other guys on here have been getting into.


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

I get where you guys are coming from. But at the same time we have states all around us that have a ton more hunting opportunities for bulls. An out of state elk hunt is fairly expensive and if Utah changed some management we could have IMO the same opportunity that Idaho and Colorado and Montana residents have. All while not needing to travel to another state and spend money a lot of people may not have.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

brendo said:


> Alright cpa, I get where your coming from. But at the same time we have states all around us that have a ton more hunting opportunities for bulls. An out of state elk hunt is fairly expensive and if Utah changed some management we could have IMO the same opportunity that Idaho and Colorado and Montana residents have. All while not needing to travel to another state and spend money a lot of people may not have.


I agree that hunting out of state is expensive, but if there were only three LE elk units in the state, as previously suggested in this thread, how much would the general season tag have to increase to offset the money lost by the auction tags, and LE tag costs? I think the system is pretty good now, my vote is to leave it alone.

I don't think people in Utah, or Western States, realize how good they have it - millions and millions of acres that the public ownes and lots of different animals to hunt on that ground. I recently moved to Texas, my choice - not blaming anyone or making excuses, but there is pretty much zero public land. If I want to hunt something, I have to buy a lease or pay a trespass fee. IF I ever decide to make it back to the west, I plan on hunting every day of the season for every species I can get a tag for!!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I personally would like to see more units opened to general season elk hunting in Utah. Sure, its fun to draw that LE tag when you do, but then its over.... and on many units there are getting to be such a backlog in points if you ever want to rifle hunt you will only get to once in your life. I would not be supportive of opening up LE units like any bull units currently are, but opening them up with antler restrictions would work IMO. 

I would prefer to see every unit turned into an "any bull" type hunt, where you pick your unit and hunt it. I would also be for putting a 5 point or better rule in place on every unit, and take all rifle elk hunting out of the rut. I think positioning a rifle hunt right around this time along with a 5 point or better rule could give much more opportunity and result in a hunt where success rates may go down. I would like to see all units turned over to this type of management, for archery, muzzleloader, and rifle. You could sale way more bull tags and allow for plenty of opportunity. Raise the price on the tag as well. I would prefer a more general season elk hunt in this state.

Now for the reality...... Guides would fight it, SFW would fight it, and the state would all in either. They would no longer be auctioning off expensive LE elk tags for ten, twenty, and thirty thousand dollars. It would definitely hurt guides and money raised from auction tags. So the truth is, it isn't going to happen, likely not within my lifetime or anyones on this forum. The support that is needed for such a thing to happen isn't there and it won't be any time soon. LE units will remain LE units. Right now there is a decent balance, although I would like to see larger herd sizes of elk and objectives raised on many units, but theres a lot that goes into that as well. If we could have more elk, we could have more tags...... my advice....... go to a meeting or email and ask for cow tags to be cut back. More cows=more bulls, and right now cows have been significantly cut back in a lot of places the last couple years.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I'm not a inches guy but what's the fun in shooting a dink bull when you can let them get a little bigger?
I get Colorado . live it up but why turn Utah into that ****show


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

middlefork said:


> I'm not a inches guy but what's the fun in shooting a dink bull when you can let them get a little bigger?
> I get Colorado . live it up but why turn Utah into that ****show


Why shoot a dink buck? Let's turn all deer units into LEs so every 10 years we draw a tag we can shoot a 4 point. I would rather have an opportunity to hunt big bulls in my favorite more often in this short life with antler restrictions or something than hunt them once in my favorite places and then it's over. I apply for other states but I enjoy the places I hold dear more than some place in Colorado or elsewhere.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

brendo said:


> I completely agree leave 3-4 of the best units as le. Turn everything else GS. Reduce cow tags. It would be nice to be similar to Idaho or Colorado.


CO & ID have many more elk and habitat than UT.

Your suggestion would create nothing but raghorn hunts. Bull-cow ratios drop which cause calf production to drop. Young bulls don't breed as well as big bulls.

Every year I have opportunity to hunt elk. Every few years I can guarantee hunting cows if I chose. The LE tag odds keep getting tougher. I'd rather focus on solutions to cut the number of people in the draws.

1) Increase cost of LE tags to $500
2) Require payment with the application
3) You draw you hunt except extreme hardship (death, military) no tag turn back.
4) 16+ to enter LE draws.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

The Any Bull hunt is one of my favorite hunts. But I don't see there being a possibility of creating more viable any bull units. When I was on the Elk Committee a few years ago, I spent all my "political" capital with the Committee to save the Any Bull hunt in the Uintas. The proposal was to make it a 5 year old LE unit. That would have essentially killed the Any bull OTC hunt. 

If you guys want more mature bull opportunity then get the age objectives lowered to average 5.5 year old bulls (except for 3-4 units). That could generate up to 1,000 more tags.

As for discontinuing the spike hunt-- that would be a sad day for 20,000+ hunters. And the units would have to carry all spikes for 5-7 years before they came into the "age objective". This tends to carry so many bulls the elk population exceeds the management goal and they issue more cow tags. That is the reason why we have spike tags on almost every unit. 

..


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Packout said:


> As for discontinuing the spike hunt-- that would be a sad day for 20,000+ hunters. And the units would have to carry all spikes for 5-7 years before they came into the "age objective". This tends to carry so many bulls the elk population exceeds the management goal and they issue more cow tags. That is the reason why we have spike tags on almost every unit.
> 
> ..


Very interesting - thanks for sharing that! It's crazy how the domino effect would really start by changing a couple of the current regulations.


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

OriginalOscar said:


> CO & ID have many more elk and habitat than UT.
> 
> Your suggestion would create nothing but raghorn hunts. Bull-cow ratios drop which cause calf production to drop. Young bulls don't breed as well as big bulls.
> 
> ...


Sure, Colorado has a TON more elk.. Idaho not nearly as much of a deficit. Yet, the hunter numbers are hugely different. just go look at harvest statistics from both states. If we managed to a similar model for our elk herd numbers we would have a good increase in opportunity plus keeping a healthy herd. As for raghorn hunts there are plenty of units in Idaho that have a 20% + of the bulls being harvested as 6 point or better on OTC tags. I am not saying Utah should necessarily go to a free for all state, maybe something like packout said and lower age objectives on a lot of units. I just really think there is a huge room for improvement in opportunity to hunt bull elk.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

OriginalOscar said:


> CO & ID have many more elk and habitat than UT.
> 
> Your suggestion would create nothing but raghorn hunts. Bull-cow ratios drop which cause calf production to drop. Young bulls don't breed as well as big bulls.
> 
> ...


1) nothing more than the beginning of the end to the North American Model of wildlife Conservation. The point of the model is that we all own wildlife equally, starting to go toward a supply and demand affect on price only begins to move closer to wildlife being more monatized than they already are. Auction tags are far enough, we don't need to start ensuring people are outpriced for tags now. 
2) does nothing. I apply for Colorado, it's a bit of a pain, but doesn't stop me from applying. It just sits on a credit card for a few months.
3)agree 100%
4) doesn't solve anything. You either have the elk and tags or you don't Making people wait puts them in a different point bracket but it doesn't make any more tags available or resolve the backlog of applicants.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

DallanC said:


> I'd rather get rid of spike tags and increase the number of LE bull tags in 3 years.
> 
> -DallanC


I've thought about this a lot, so tonight I finally decided to look at the numbers. And yes, I'm sure my model is oversimplified, but it's a start. Let's see what would happen if we did away with spike permits and increased LE tags. Looking at the numbers from the most recent big game annual report (2015), the following elk tags were offered:

15,000 any bull
15,000 spike
3,046 LE

and

55,791 people either applying for or buying points for LE elk. That's one LE elk permit for about every 18 applicants, on average.

The spike hunts had an average of 15% success, while the LE hunts had an average of 50%. That's about 3 times less success for spikes, so maybe it's fair to say that we could turn 15,000 spike permits into 5,000 LE permits (although it would take a few years of recovery before getting to that point). Then we would have:

15,000 any bull
8,000 LE

And about one LE tag for every 7 applicants.

There would be more competition for the any bull tags, but the crowding on those units wouldn't get any worse. Most people would at least get to hunt LE elk a few times in their lives, and potentially quite a few times with archery tags or on less desirable units. And, any bull is always an option in the meantime. They could also offer many/all of the additional tags during a midseason hunt, when the spike hunt traditionally took place. The trophy hunting crowd might stay quieter if they left their rut hunts alone and didn't crowd the existing hunts any more.

But... that's still 10,000 fewer hunters in the field every year. I'd probably support it, since I hunt waterfowl and other things while I wait for my big game tags. Those who are bigger fans of big game hunting would not be happy, though. There's a lot to be said for the opportunity the OTC hunts provide. After all, I have NO excuses for the fact that I didn't hunt elk this year. On the other hand, people complain to no end about the fact that they can't get deer tags as often as they would like.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> 1) nothing more than the beginning of the end to the North American Model of wildlife Conservation. The point of the model is that we all own wildlife equally, starting to go toward a supply and demand affect on price only begins to move closer to wildlife being more monatized than they already are. Auction tags are far enough, we don't need to start ensuring people are outpriced for tags now. $60K truck + $40K trailer + $30K in ATVs and you are worried about increase? We all make choices and the $10 application fee is cheap. Opportunity for LE Elk is worth a premium.
> 2) does nothing. I apply for Colorado, it's a bit of a pain, but doesn't stop me from applying. It just sits on a credit card for a few months. Great then you wouldn't apply in Utah which makes my point. Do you ever notice how many old people and women happen to draw LE tags? Dads puts everyone in for $10 each. $500 each on the CC would thin that number.
> 3)agree 100% - Glad you got one right.
> 4) doesn't solve anything. You either have the elk and tags or you don't Making people wait puts them in a different point bracket but it doesn't make any more tags available or resolve the backlog of applicants. Nonsensical.
> If under 16 can't apply then you have less applicants and better odds.


Out.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

What is the average survival mortality from spike to 5-6 point? I'm willing to bet you'd only get to increase LE tags by 3k max at the cost of 15k spike permits


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

OriginalOscar said:


> Out.


WRONG! Out


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

johnnycake said:


> What is the average survival mortality from spike to 5-6 point? I'm willing to bet you'd only get to increase LE tags by 3k max at the cost of 15k spike permits


Like I said, it's an overly simple way to think about things. But I think some of that would be compensated for by decreased success rates. There would be more competition among hunters for the nicer bulls, so a few more picky hunters would probably eat tag soup. If additional tags were offered in the mid or late seasons, rather than the rut, overall success rates would likely go down as well.

To really boost tag numbers though, we would need lower age objectives. I'd be ok with that, but something tells me there's way too much $$$ in trophy hunting for that to happen.

Good thing I've got general deer, antlerless game, and waterfowl to hunt while I wait for my OIAL elk tag.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I would not support any proposal that cuts more hunters out of getting a tag. Our numbers are slipping as is - why drive the final couple nails in the coffin? Social media and TV have driven this narrative that there are, or should be, big animals everywhere, when that has historically not been the case. Sure there have been periods where more and bigger animals were killed, but that had to do with habitat conditions that grew more and better animals, not reductions in tag and hunter numbers.

I like the system, more or less, as is. My only change would be to lower age objectives on some of the LE units to allow more tags to help break the bottlenecks. Keep the top 4 or 5 premiere units as is and slightly lower age objectives in the remaining LE units. I wouldn't touch the spike or any bull units whatsoever. The inches game is a losing battle for hunters and hunting in general. No one should feel entitled to a 300"+ 6x6 on their hunt, and that perception and the requirements that go along with it are hurting hunting's future.


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## Baron83 (May 24, 2016)

I guess i would like to see some of the any bull units have more elk on them. And i understand why most dont, i have been reading the management plans.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

There is a definitely mortality component for young bulls. (non-hunting)

Just remember-- Because most elk units are over the population objective, for every additional bull you carry, you must shoot a cow.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Tell you guys what,
Utahs elk plan is pretty solid!

Creates opportunity for everyone. 

Leave it alone other than a few small changes. 
Like braesking the Wasatch down to the 3 sub units for elk.


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## Bill_The_Butcher (Sep 21, 2017)

Nope. I also think they need to stop giving out so many tags for the general any bull units.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Packout said:


> There is a definitely mortality component for young bulls. (non-hunting)
> 
> Just remember-- Because most elk units are over the population objective, for every additional bull you carry, you must shoot a cow.


This !!!!!


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## ZEKESMAN (Sep 14, 2007)

I have lived in Utah my whole life. We have more Elk now than ever. If only our deer herd was in as good of shape as our Elk. Vic


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

I too would like to see the DWR move the rifle hunt out of the rut. However, if I had 15+ points and they changed the system now, I would be ticked! In my mind, the only way to make it fair is if the DWR eliminated the draw for LE rifle rut hunts for a few years and issued all of the tags to the top point holders. Say everyone with 10+ points would be in the pool. Once everyone in the pool got to hunt during the rut, then you could switch the dates and the draw is back open for everyone.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Utah needs to do what every other Western state does allow primitive weapons priority during the rut. Then the rifle hunt just after. If the rifle guys want to complain about season length. Go ahead and cut the archery dates in half, no one will care if they get the rut. 

I'd also support more general elk areas. Again many surrounding states offer much more opportunity to shoot a branch antlered bull for it's residents than Utah does. Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming and Montana are far superior on archery dates and OTC branch antlered bull tags.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Packout said:


> If you guys want more mature bull opportunity then get the age objectives lowered to average 5.5 year old bulls (except for 3-4 units). That could generate up to 1,000 more tags


I would LOVE to see this happen.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

CPAjeff said:


> You know that elk are not exclusive to Utah, right? There are plenty of OTC and general tags available in the surrounding states. It seems the crux of some hunter's mentality is to spend $50 on a tag, have a spot within one hour of their home and be guaranteed a chance at a mature bull every year...


Everyone points to all this out of state opportunity. I have tried and so far suck at figuring a whole lot out in this area. I am willing to pay, but it isn't like everyone has help/resources/people to go with. I am not totally arguing, I just mean it so far hasn't been super doable, and is far more expensive.

Once you figure it all out, I have seen it pay dividends year over year for some. Same with the comments "GS produces big bulls all the time"... There are people who have an amazing handle on this for elk and deer. Some of these are private areas, etc... It takes years to figure out elk units on public land if you are doing it alone, and it can change in a jiff. Some of these secret spots have been passed down from generations, or come from friends.. Some involve using horses because it is just ridiculous to do without.

You can always argue that "well if you are willing to work for it".. That is a fallback statement. Easy to say when you are the guy on the horse  :grin:


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Utah needs to do what every other Western state does allow primitive weapons priority during the rut. .


I have oft wondered why the weapons with the highest success, on the best units, also are during the peak times of the rut.

Also, and I say this as a Archery AND Muzzleloader hunter (mainly that, since I could hunt) that with the new ML rules, and these dang guns where they essentially have an open-end cartridge system(that new Remington might as well be a rifle), that ML is removed from the "primitive" part of your statement. Can't wait -O,- to see how much the success rates climb the next couple years here...


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

RandomElk16 said:


> I have oft wondered why the weapons with the highest success, on the best units, also are during the peak times of the rut.


Top 3 Reasons:

1. Money
2. Money
3. Money


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

CPAjeff said:


> Top 3 Reasons:
> 
> 1. Money
> 2. Money
> 3. Money


Can't be! I was recently told on here that that doesn't influence our management plans in any way!


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I guess some don't remember how it was before the spike units. (It was not good)Lower the age objective is the only thing I can see working For more branched antler bulls being killed per year.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Coming from a state where everything is a draw, I appreciate the chance for OTC opportunities as a NR. ID, WY, and MT are quite a ways off, and CO is more spendy than UT for a cow with archery tackle. Without other states' OTC hunts, I don't get to go.

My uneducated stab at this would be to increase some archery opportunities through a draw as "hunters choice", start it Sept 1 thru the 20th and slide the rifle and muzzy hunts back a couple of weeks. Also - get rid of being able to use an antlerless tag on every other hunt you have on that unit. For cow control, let the archery hunters choice handle that. You'd be surprised how many bowhunters would be willing to shoot a cow, even with a hunters choice in an LE unit.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Bill_The_Butcher said:


> Nope. I also think they need to stop giving out so many tags for the general any bull units.


Why exactly?


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Utah needs to do what every other Western state does allow primitive weapons priority during the rut. Then the rifle hunt just after. If the rifle guys want to complain about season length. Go ahead and cut the archery dates in half, no one will care if they get the rut.
> 
> I'd also support more general elk areas. Again many surrounding states offer much more opportunity to shoot a branch antlered bull for it's residents than Utah does. Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming and Montana are far superior on archery dates and OTC branch antlered bull tags.


Utah could allow only 10 rut tags per unit.

1- Auction

1- Expo

6 - Resident

2 - Non Resident

Then move bow into the rut with only the 10 rifle hunters with special tags.


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## BeaverDam (Mar 29, 2017)

I would like to see this thread done as a poll. It would be very interesting to see what the majority would choose.


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## Baron83 (May 24, 2016)

After reading a few other post I'm bringing this post back. Curious if anyone has changed there minds on it. I would still like to see more opportunities and less limited entry .


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Nope.
General season elk sucks IMO.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

In order to have more opportunity, quality will have to suffer. In looking at UT and NM, both states have pretty close to the same number of elk, yet NM offers more opportunity for draw hunts. That is because there are no OTC opportunities. In 2016, there were approx 37,000 elk licenses sold, some of them antlerless. The total reported harvest (80%) showed almost 8,000 bulls killed, very few would be spikes and only then they would've been killed by ES archery hunters in Sept.

There are plenty of 330"+ bulls killed in NM and even a few 350+. Not many (if any at all) in the 380" - 400". There is only one OIL unit for elk and that's Valle Vidal, a true elk sanctuary. You go there to witness 20 to 30 bulls bugling and rutting in one area only to go to another and see the same thing. Most good bulls that come out of there are 330 - 340".

So, the question is: do you have very limited opportunity and hope you get drawn for 1 of a few coveted big bull tags, or have the chance to go more often and shoot "smaller" bulls? No doubt that some of the units in UT are on the decline and not producing the behemoths they once did. Why not adjust and adapt and change those units for avg elk opportunity by increasing tags and do away with spike hunts in those units? 

No best solution, I'm sure. What I need to do is "pool hop" and cash in on an easier to draw unit and be happy with a 320 bull because if I hold out for the powerball unit of San Juan, I may be one of many with 40 elk bonus points one day...

Edit: should clarify, total elk licenses sold in 2016 also include private land tags (CWMU in UT) and 2017 reports almost 22,000 draw licenses sold.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> In order to have more opportunity, quality will have to suffer. In looking at UT and NM,


IMO, all elk units should be LE... yes statewide. Elk units should be managed like LE deer, with normal and Premium designations and management plans. Units like the Uinta's could be managed like it currently is, with maximum opportunity where units like the Monroe, can continue to be managed for older bulls.

Spike Elk tags could be reduced to make for more bulls... but it does come at the expense of carrying fewer cows on the winter range and unit population objectives.

-DallanC


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

Open Every unit to General any bull and let hunters disperse.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

i'm still waiting for a cow and calf only unit; 0x0, you know trophy quality. under 250lbs only since i only want to make one trip out. we'll have to make this one limited entry but i'll send ya'll pics of all the old bulls fightin over the few ladies left. oh yea, and the original poster of the idea gets a tag for life.:mrgreen:


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

DallanC said:


> IMO, all elk units should be LE... yes statewide.


Sure - why not? I read comments about how UT should do it like other states. This would do it.


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## Crndgs8 (Sep 14, 2013)

brendo said:


> I get where you guys are coming from. But at the same time we have states all around us that have a ton more hunting opportunities for bulls. An out of state elk hunt is fairly expensive and if Utah changed some management we could have IMO the same opportunity that Idaho and Colorado and Montana residents have. All while not needing to travel to another state and spend money a lot of people may not have.


We don't have near the numbers or habitat that Colorado and other states have. We also have more residents wanting to hunt than those other states. Just my opinion. 
I think the open bull units we have are great. I'm not a huge elk hunter, but I haven't had much trouble finding elk and have been able to harvest a couple small bulls. We tend to find a handful of 280" class bulls when working open bull units. Just gotta get out there and get after it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Can you imagine how much less money SFW would make if this happened? We can’t have a situation where SFW is not benefitted financially by the public resources here in Utah. That simply will not be allowed!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Curious - has there been any measurable effect on the Monroe since they stopped allowing any weapon spike hunts?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

In all seriousness, the trend at the last Wildlife Board meeting definitely seemed to be about *MORE* trophy elk hunting, not less. When you heard SFW stand up and hail Utah as the best trophy elk hunting anywhere, they cited one specific thing. They mentioned that most people when they think of big bulls think of Arizona. Well, according to his knowledge Arizona killed one 400 inch bull last year, and he personally knew of 10 here in Utah last year. But of course, that isn't enough. Just think how many more 400 inch bulls we'd have if we completely change our system after 25 years and give September to the archery hunters!

No, we aren't going to be turning LE units into general season hunts, or dropping age objectives to get more hunters killing smaller bulls under the current watch.

It would cost SFW too much money.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

SFW will eventually be the downfall of big game hunting in UT...

Too bad the Merriams Elk went extinct. UT wouldn't hold a candle to AZ and NM if that were the case.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Top 3 Reasons:
> 
> 1. Money
> 2. Money
> 3. Money


You forgot

4. Cash
5. Cash
6. Cash


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## Baron83 (May 24, 2016)

I was thinking more along the lines of declining Hunter numbers. If it would help bring people into the game. I get people want to shoot the biggest one, but having to wait ten plus years? I'll take opportunity over size.


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## Baron83 (May 24, 2016)

And yes I do hunt the any bull units and am successful. I don't have a problem with how it is just would like some diversity or more elk on some of the any bull units.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Baron83 said:


> *I was thinking more along the lines of declining Hunter numbers.* If it would help bring people into the game. I get people want to shoot the biggest one, but having to wait ten plus years? I'll take opportunity over size.


I've seen this statement over and over in many threads.

Am I the only one that believes the declining hunter numbers thing is a myth? The reason tags are harder to draw is because there are more hunters year over year. We may be less as a percentage of total population but our numbers are growing.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> I've seen this statement over and over in many threads.
> 
> Am I the only one that believes the declining hunter numbers thing is a myth? The reason tags are harder to draw is because there are more hunters year over year. We may be less as a percentage of total population but our numbers are growing.


Not a chance.

We used to issue 280,000 deer tags in utah! We are around 90,000 currently. They used to close school for the deer hunt because so many people left to hunt. There isnt a kid anywhere near where I live besides my boy that hunts.

Where are the armies of Pheasant hunters? The mass numbers of Dove hunters? You could see a string of tail-lights heading west out of Lehi in the early hours of the morning that stretched all the way to cedar fort. Anyone remember when there would be MILES of trucks pulled off the side of the road over in front of Fitzgerald's on the west side of Utah lake for the morning and evening goose flyovers?

There are so few of hunters today its pathetic... its truely stunning to hear some say numbers aren't falling, but increasing. Maybe they never really saw what it really used to be like, it was amazing how many people hunted, and how big a part of Utah culture it was.

Those days are gone, what we have now is a faded echo of what we had.

-DallanC


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Not a chance.
> 
> We used to issue 280,000 deer tags in utah! We are around 90,000 currently. They used to close school for the deer hunt because so many people left to hunt. There isnt a kid anywhere near where I live besides my boy that hunts.
> 
> ...


I remember those images from back in ,y youth days. I also remember there was a lot less people in Lehi. Traffic was something we talked about after coming back from a trip to Disneyland.

I guess I just don't pay attention to a lot of those images/things anymore because I am more focused on certain hunting dates and seasons than I was back then. A lot of my family moved away and my deer camp consists of my wife, 1 kid and myself.

Sad to see that the interest in REAL ORGANIC MEAT is being lost at such a fast pace. I for one will continue to push my kids and grandkids interest in it.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

MadHunter said:


> Sad to see that the interest in REAL ORGANIC MEAT is being lost at such a fast pace. I for one will continue to push my kids and grandkids interest in it.


my wife and kids love the stuff and actually prefer it to beef. people around my neighborhood are either surprised or appalled that we eat "wild" meat. our beef consumption is down to an occasional steak and a few fast food meals here and there.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> Not a chance.
> 
> We used to issue 280,000 deer tags in utah! We are around 90,000 currently. They used to close school for the deer hunt because so many people left to hunt. There isnt a kid anywhere near where I live besides my boy that hunts.
> 
> ...


So there are less now then 40 years ago...

But is there a decline or is it on the rise again? We issue more tags and have less and less OTC every year. Elk sells out every year (I remember buying a tag like 5 years ago AFTER the hunt started because I changed my mind).

So--- Is there a current UP-tick in hunters? We may not be in the 80's numbers, but where do we compare to 2000? 2010? 2015?


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Living faster paced lives these days doesn't help...


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## wylerr (Jun 24, 2018)

Very interesting thread. I am new to Utah from Oregon/Colorado and the system here is quite fascinating and divisive. As someone new to hunting overall, but with a background in wildlife biology and federal workings, I think the system here is solid overall. I have been doing quite a bit of research and reading of this forum, news articles, blogs, and the DWR management plans.

I definitely see the need for more bull elk hunting opportunities, but people need to understand that just removing spike hunts will not magically create an equal or even close to 50% of that number more healthy bulls to hunt. Also, I personally really like seeing a lot of the management objectives set a harvest age at approximately 5 years of age. I know its maybe not the most popular of opinions, but I like the idea of letting these bulls that have shown a survival propensity to get past spike age and then be "rewarded" by being able to potentially grow into monsters. 

One thing I really don't understand here and wish to see changed is putting the archery season during rut and pushing the rifle and muzzy season later. I just don't get having the rifle guys hunting when the elk are the "easiest" to nab. Also, I think most people tend to agree that the muzzleloaders now are just about as close to rifles as they can be and still fall under regulations.

Finally, I just saw SFW being mentioned in this thread. Who are these guys and what are all the jokes about their finances? Coming from Oregon and Colorado, we had some wildlife groups, but it was mostly RMEF and thats about it. Utah seems to have about 2 or 3 extras that I have never heard of.

Thanks


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

wylerr said:


> Finally, I just saw SFW being mentioned in this thread. Who are these guys and what are all the jokes about their finances? Coming from Oregon and Colorado, we had some wildlife groups, but it was mostly RMEF and thats about it. Utah seems to have about 2 or 3 extras that I have never heard of.
> Thanks


Welcome to Utah and welcome to the forum.

SFW is an organization that proclaims to have wildlife's interest in mind. Their actions, in conjunction with some actions from the state, have made a lot of us believe their only interest is catering to high value trophy hunting for high dollar paying hunters.

Others, myself included, believe they have become a rich and powerful political lobbying organization on the backs of public resources by exploiting the Western Hunt Expo and benefiting financially from a draw of 200 publicly owned tags with zero accountability as to how they use/spend/apply the funds obtained. This is a NPO for which I remember at one point a few years ago seeing a yearly financial disclosure of some sort where it's president got paid consulting fees in excess of 1 million dollars. In my company we don't pay our own CEO consulting fees; he's an employee. massive conflict of interests and shady to say the least.

You will find a lot of threads on here and in other forums where the opinion is mostly negative on SFW. Don't take my/our word for it though. Research and find out for yourself.

Again.... WELCOME TO UTAH!


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