# Three Corners North Slope Limited Entry Elk



## jungle (May 10, 2008)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280237154638&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=018

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=218&ad=3379266&cat=249&lpid=0

Hope this helps with fuel costs. I only let a few go out each year to help me with my fuel costs; and to help you with yours.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Just one queston,
I've known Charlie since he was the FG law officer on Boulder in the early 80s, I'm wondering if he is aware you are selling taped interviews of him giving info???


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Just one queston,
> I've known Charlie since he was the FG law officer on Boulder in the early 80s, I'm wondering if he is aware you are selling taped interviews of him giving info???


I' m sorry but where did you get your information that our interview was "taped"? Thats a serious accusation. I hope you can back it up....

By the way, a few years ago I emailed Charlie trail cam photos of the elk to help him with the managment of the population. Charlie was pleased to get a least a bit more data to help him with management decisions.

Look at all the elk permits out there now!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

jungle said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, a few years ago I emailed Charlie trail cam photos of the elk to help him with the managment of the population. Charlie was pleased to get a least a bit more data to help him with management decisions.
> ...


Not trying to get in the middle of this little spat, but are you asserting the herd is larger today because of a few trail cam pictures you e-mailed a DWR biologist? They must be some pictures, how about a peek?


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

lets see here you come on here wanting to sell some info from scouting on this web site and use it for free advertising. maybe your thread should be taken off just for this reason. 

selling info about scouting has to be pretty low, not much better than an ambulance chaser in my books.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

From your KSL ad ,4.1, Phone interview with Charlie.
Maybe it's not taped, But using information like this to make a buck on the .www just dosnt seem right.


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## hockey (Nov 7, 2007)

I know where some good bulls hang out on the Boulder:
$79 gets you within a mile
$149 gets you the drainage
$219 gets you the ridge
$999 gets you GPS coordinates
$5000, I'll lasso and tie the **** thing to a tree for you, extra to pack it out
PM me if interested


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

hockey said:


> I know where some good bulls hang out on the Boulder:
> $79 gets you within a mile
> $149 gets you the drainage
> $219 gets you the ridge
> ...


What is your definition of a "good bull"? If it matches mine then your are a bargain, if not you are a ripoff! :twisted: :wink:


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## ACHY (Oct 18, 2007)

I also know Charlie quite well, and in my opinion he is a first rate biologist. However, I have to disagree that a few photos made much of a difference in the management decisions for this area, and even less with the number of elk permits in the unit. The number of permits can be directly tied to habitat improvements during rehabilitation of the mustang ridge wildfire several years ago.

Hey hockey, how much will $10 get me?


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## flinger (Nov 19, 2007)

Doesn't seem like a bad deal to me for such a informative report. If I had a Three Corners elk tag, I'd seriously consider it. Advertising it on this Big Game forum might be a "no no". For those who think selling information like this is unethical, I don't see the the difference between selling this scouting information and selling guiding services. This scouting book would be a lot cheaper than hiring a guide. :?: :?: 

Anyone have a detailed Nebo elk report for sale??  j/k


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

ACHY said:


> I also know Charlie quite well, and in my opinion he is a first rate biologist. However, I have to disagree that a few photos made much of a difference in the management decisions for this area, and even less with the number of elk permits in the unit. The number of permits can be directly tied to habitat improvements during rehabilitation of the mustang ridge wildfire several years ago.
> 
> Hey hockey, how much will $10 get me?


I said, that I gave him a "bit more data," which, in my world, and Charlie's, we are always grateful for a bit more data.

And Kudos to Charlie for a tremendous job on the elk and bighorn sheep herds on that unit!


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> jungle said:
> 
> 
> > goofy elk said:
> ...


Hey Pro,

I clarified in another post, but I only said I gave him a "bit more data". I never connected the two as that would be absurd. Only that Charlie has done a tremendous job out there.

thanks again Pro for helping me shoot straight!


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

hockey said:


> I know where some good bulls hang out on the Boulder:
> $79 gets you within a mile
> $149 gets you the drainage
> $219 gets you the ridge
> ...


I agree with flinger. Its OK to guide but not OK to save someone hundreds on fuel?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

jungle said:


> hockey said:
> 
> 
> > I know where some good bulls hang out on the Boulder:
> ...


Speaking with a little first hand knowledge on this subject, a guide/outfitter MUST obtain a special use permit BEFORE he can profit from PUBLIC land. Thia applies for video footage obtained for monetary purposes. I recommend you check the regs, just to be on the safe side, these fines can be fairly steep. I am guessing the authorities will view your service as being different than my guide service provides, after all, saving fuel/time are 2 of the biggest benefits of hiring a guide in many instances.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Why pay somebody else to do the scouting for you. That take away from the fun and being in the mountions. Pluse you don’t know if a big bull to him is big enough for you or the other way around. How do you really know that he out there scouting for you?


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## SingleShot man (Dec 24, 2007)

PRO's right- the regs can be tricky.
Be careful what you 'profit' from.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it. It seems to me, that if someone goes to school for however many years, puts all this time, energy and expense into doing something for a living that places them in the right place at the right time (regardless of the course of study), why can't they make a nickel or two from it?
This is America, and that's capitalism. It seems any time someone finds a new way to make a buck regarding wildlife, people clam up and eschew it... until it's common place. Frankly, I think this guy just created a new industry that many, many people will start copying in the near future.

On the other hand- I've got little respect for the ( can't think of a fitting expletive) who buys it. 
Here's an idea- lets tie a boulder to his foot, and chuck him into a reservoir. If he floats, he's right and we're wrong. Or, even better- let's tie him to a stake and set it ablaze. If his 'different' idea is heresy, he will burn. If not- he will emerge with little more than an enviable sun tan.
Fear change! Point fingers! Judge critically anything different!That's the secret to keeping an open mind.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Let me clarify, I have NO PROBLEM with jungle is doing as far as offering a service. But, laws are laws, I don't agree/like the special use permit requirement, but I adhere to it, and so should jungle/others. I know a few outfitters who offer similar services LEGALLY!

I am always amused/amazed how people are bothered by those who use such services, how many of these folks change their own oil, build their own house, etc. :? How is hiring a guide service to 'scout' any different?


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

Ok ok I'll jump into this too. Before you pay someone to tell you where to hunt with a permit YOU drew I'd go take a look at the area. There are a lot of animals in this area, and a lot of nice bulls at that, late in the year. I've put in for this unsuccessfully for the last couple of years and will keep at it. It's not that big of an area and if you know anything about elk hunting you shouldn't have any problem finding bulls. If it's the big one your looking for then by all means get yourself an outfitter and go for it.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

This is response to several posts.

This is not a guiding service. Not a wildlife brokerage service. I never claim it nor do I guarantee an elk. I am selling a report on the area and how elk use the habitat. *Public Domain information*. Parts of the year, the springs are dynamic; other times the springs are void of elk. No elk-tied-up-here deals.

It has information on things like wallows to lodging. And tips on GPS usage. And how to recognize a rub on this unit. And what parts of the units are treacherous due to rain and clay roads. Info on other hunts in the Unit and surrounding States and how that interplays with the Three Corners hunt. If my report is illegal, then an awful lot of biology students are going to jail. 

There are some folks who live several hours away from the Unit; and for some the cost of gas is a non-issue; and for others the report may help someone with their hunt who cannot afford the fuel, which has increased in price even just since January.

So far, all Ive done is point a couple of folks in the right direction in a tough-to-draw-Limited Entry Elk unit, so they might save a tank or two of gas. And maybe even save someone from wasting who knows how many bonus points on what, in practicality, may be once in a lifetime.

As I see it, this report is like two folks pulling up next to each other on the road in their pick-up trucks, and rolling down their windows, and giving each other a little help on where he or she might have a chance at getting one.


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## SingleShot man (Dec 24, 2007)

I may not have been very clear with my first post, jungle, but-
It is quite apparent that you have done your homework, have been clear, concise, forthright and honest. You have my full support.
I have a great deal of respect for those whom sacrifice time and expense in the name of science- and that is what you offer.
It's just not my unit.
Good luck.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

jungle said:


> As I see it, this report is like two folks pulling up next to each other on the road in their pick-up trucks, and rolling down their windows, and giving each other a little help on where he or she might have a chance at getting one.


What matters is how the state sees it. The main difference between what you are doing and "two folks pulling up next to each other on the road in their pick-up trucks, and rolling down their windows, and giving each other a little help on where he or she might have a chance at getting one" is the MONEY exchanged. That is the point, my guiding someone using your logic is no different than me helping my brother, which of course is not true. Same for the biology students you referred to, I seriously doubt they are getting paid to offer info. As a guide, I MUST get a special use permit if I get compensated for ANYTHING above/beyond food/gas. That SAME rule applies to what you are doing. I am NOT harping on you per say, I am saying it is in YOUR best interest to make sure you are acting within the law. If you are fine with NOT knowing, go for it. But, you have been warned, and I know for a fact that CO's are known to peruse this forum. Good luck!


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## SingleShot man (Dec 24, 2007)

+1 
Sucks to be a student; 'specially if you're a PETA member.

Look, dude-
There are too many 'gray areas' to account for. 
Truly, Not everyone needs approval. Be Friggin' careful!
You won't just shoot yourself in the foot; but be aware that anything and every(one)thing that They- (personified,_ed. sp.) tried to understand ecology (at least those COACHED in YOUR FIELD) for their own reasons.
There are too many variables. Auctioning off those variables is going to raise some eyebrows. Period. Get ready for the sh*tstorm.
I refuse to defend anyone that hasn't done their homework.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

jungle said:


> As I see it, this report is like two folks pulling up next to each other on the road in their pick-up trucks, and rolling down their windows, and giving each other a little help on where he or she might have a chance at getting one.


are they exchanging monies for the info? look at like this you are going to make a profit off other people's info then they should be aware of it. you should have a business license to do this.

now what if everyone here starting charging for info, this would not go over so well on this web site.

further more the three corners area is not all that hard of an unit to hunt, I know of three people you hunted it last year and had no problem of finding elk.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Hey jungle, On page 2, 2nd post, your showing me make a quote i tkink you made.Fix IT.

Now the buiness license is easy to get, The Special use permits are amost impossible to obtain unless you allready have them and keep them up to date. we have 14 of them to keep up with and maintain, and that alone is a full time job. And that is were the problem lie's, We bust our a$$ to do it legal and then someone is selling services with out license's.

Alright, I feel better now, I'm headed to the hills to watch elk for a couple days.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

Final post:


Homework? Selling Services? No one hired me to produce this nature book. Guess they got paid, right? Biology students working for Grad students or professors or writers who sell their books and papers?

I just had an epiphany....This thread has filtered out some threatened guides protecting their turf from yet another industry! 

Nice try. 

Buy a report from me and send it to the authorities. :shock:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I just had an epiphany....This thread has filtered out some threatened guides protecting their turf from yet another industry!


Some people are just trying to tell you to quit breaking the law!! I believe you need a business license.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

coyoteslayer said:


> > I just had an epiphany....This thread has filtered out some threatened guides protecting their turf from yet another industry!
> 
> 
> Some people are just trying to tell you to quit breaking the law!! I believe you need a business license.


I know I said "final post" before, but I can see Coyote slayer is trying to help sort it out...

Thanks Coyoteslayer.

The interesting thing is though, no one bothered to ask me if I had a business license.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

jungle said:


> I just had an epiphany....This thread has filtered out some threatened guides protecting their turf from yet another industry!


The next time I guide anywhere near Three Corners will be the FIRST. I wouldn't WASTE my time, nor any of my clients time in that area. Get over yourself, and see this for what it is. I have no desire to get you in trouble, but if you are SELLING a service related to PUBLIC land w/o a special use permit you are breaking the law! Do what you want, it will NOT change the law.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I know I said "final post" before, but I can see Coyote slayer is trying to help sort it out...
> 
> Thanks Coyoteslayer.


Im not trying to sort it out. I'm saying that people including me are telling you that you are breaking the law.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

If the State of Utah decides to spend literally tens of thousands of dollars to prosecute a guy for selling a couple of home-published reports for less than a hundred bucks then you guys have a lot more to worry about than what you've been arguing here.

Knock yourself out Jungle, I'd buy one if it was my unit.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Renegade said:


> If the State of Utah decides to spend literally tens of thousands of dollars to prosecute a guy for selling a couple of home-published reports for less than a hundred bucks then you guys have a lot more to worry about than what you've been arguing here.
> 
> Knock yourself out Jungle, I'd buy one if it was my unit.


It's not the state, it would be whomever owns the land, such as the *US* Forest Service, *BLM* among a few.

You people crack me up, the same people who condemn outfitters for being the bane of hunting that FOLLOW the law, believe it fine for the 'little guy' to ignore the laws I/others are required, and do, to follow/pay for. The fine for such action can be as high as *$5000.00 *for *each* offense. In this case if jungle were to SELL 4 of these 'packets', his fine could be as high as *$20,000* PLUS legal fees. Do you guys feel it is alright for an individual to guide a hunter w/o the proper permits? If not, why the double standard? If so, what is the point of having ANY laws if people can pick and choose which ones to hinder to? If I were to guide on PUBLIC land w/o a special use permit, I would be fined and it would be impossible for me to ever obtain a permit again. So yeah, I 'take issue' when people "CHEAT THE SYSTEM", which CHEATS everyone who follows the law. I liken it to getting a permit to harvest wood on PUBLIC land, no big deal I suppose. :roll: Unless you are 'dumb enough' to actually buy one while your 'buddy' doesn't. Or, you being 'dumb enough' to pay taxes while your 'buddy' doesn't. :?


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

Well, Pro, you're wrong about me anyway.

I really doubt anyone is going to get in trouble for putting something on ebay for $25.00. I really doubt there is a prosecutor on planet Earth that has so little to do that he'd go after a deal like this.
Now, if there were 10 million copies for sale by a commercial operation, that would be different, but it's not.

No different than selling old copyrighted videos at a garage sale or on ebay. No big deal.

Now, if he was selling a guide service for a couple grand, he'd be in deep "poop".


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Renegade, the $25 isn't the final price. It only represents the highest bidder. If tomorrow someone bid $1,000 dollars then would your opinion change or would it remain the same?


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Renegade, the $25 isn't the final price. It only represents the highest bidder. If tomorrow someone bid $1,000 dollars then would your opinion change or would it remain the same?


Well actually, if you want to nit pick, the $1000 bid would only really be $25.00 until someone else bid it up to the 1000, which ain't gonna happen. So I don't think its an issue. However, it wouldn't change my mind, as the seller didn't set that price, a potential buyer did.

Simple math: Total number of tags in the LEA-People with tags who don't come to this site or look at KSL online ads-people with tags who don't find the report on ebay= the number of bidders. As of now, there is one bidder*. There is also no reserve price, so if someone bids $25, they get it.

Now, if they were advertised for a grand each, and there were 4 for sale, then he may attract some attention, but I still don't think anyone would prosecute it.

Look at this scenario:

Google Earth charges you to marry GE to your GPS, (You have to be a premium member of GE). So if you want to look at GE & save the coordinates of a wallow, isn't that the same thing?

Shouldn't Google Earth be in jail too?

*edited to correct number of total bidders.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Google Earth charges you to marry GE to your GPS, (You have to be a premium member of GE). So if you want to look at GE & save the coordinates of a wallow, isn't that the same thing?
> 
> Shouldn't Google Earth be in jail too?


No its not the same thing. You are missing the whole point.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Google Earth charges you to marry GE to your GPS, (You have to be a premium member of GE). So if you want to look at GE & save the coordinates of a wallow, isn't that the same thing?
> >
> > Shouldn't Google Earth be in jail too?
> 
> ...


It's the same, he's telling you where to go with pictures, google is telling you where to go with pictures, you guys claim he's "making money" by illegally selling info relating to USFS land with no permit, google is selling info relating to USFS land with no permit.

But......

I think you are missing my point.

It's no big deal. It's not a for-profit enterprise-at least by appearance.

It's not enough money to generate any interest whatsoever if it even really is illegal.

Look at it this way: Driving 67mph in a 65 zone is illegal too, how may people do you know who get speeding tickets for driving 67?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Renegade said:


> Now, if he was selling a guide service for a couple grand, he'd be in deep "poop".


Alright, lets forget about the dollar amount and the risk of a fine just for kicks and giggles. His he operating within the law? If not, is that still alright by you? If it is, what is the point of having laws if only certain people are expected/required to adhere to said laws?


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Renegade said:
> 
> 
> > Now, if he was selling a guide service for a couple grand, he'd be in deep "poop".
> ...


I don't think he's doing anyone or any agency any damage, and therefore, I don't believe that if he actually is breaking a law-which none of us seems to be certain he is-that it would be money well spent on this particular type of violation to prosecute it. It simply would cost us taxpayers way more money that could be used elsewhere to actually go after real law-breakers or improve hunting and/or habitat.

I'm no proponent of law-breakers by any stretch of anyones imagination, but this is simple economics of legal procedure. It makes no sense from an accounting standpoint to pursue.

In the real world, even if he did break the law, and even if they did decide to prosecute, there would likely be some sort of plea arrangement or settlement and there is no way that it would equal the costs. Period.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I NEVER intended for him to get in trouble, it was a simple heads up. Why folks get all riled because I pointed out what the LAW is, is beyond me. :? I as a guide/outfitter have to comply with this law, whether I like/agree with it or not. Even if I were to guide for free to get video footage, I am STILL required to obtain a special use permit. If you think 'cherry picking' laws for certain folks, fine. Now I know who/what I am dealing with here.


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I NEVER intended for him to get in trouble, it was a simple heads up. Why folks get all riled because I pointed out what the LAW is, is beyond me. :? I as a guide/outfitter have to comply with this law, whether I like/agree with it or not. Even if I were to guide for free to get video footage, I am STILL required to obtain a special use permit. If you think 'cherry picking' laws for certain folks, fine. Now I know who/what I am dealing with here.


You & I are not in disagreement here in regards to the law at all, and I am certainly not "all riled up". All I'm saying is sometimes what appears to be a violation may be a violation, only not worth the effort to pursue it. I don't care who it is.

Some laws are completely stupid beyond all stretch of the imagination. Like the permit for commercial video operation on Forest Service lands, thats just plain stupid if you asked me. I understand I/we/you have to comply or face charges, but do you really think its a good law, or just a waste of time & money?

The difference I see in this particular deal is that this guy is selling 4 "reports" or what have you on areas that he has scouted. He's only providing direction to an area that anyone could go to on their own. It's not like Sportsmans Warehouse is selling thousands of books or anything even resembling a commercial type operation. I'd be willing to bet that if an accounting of costs were done, you'd find this guy is losing his ass, and only wants a hundred bucks or so for gas, so to me, it is different than you as you are a commercial operation in the business of hunting. There are just to many variables on this particular deal.

Now if it were a guy auctioning a guided hunt then he should be in trouble if not following the law.

Some of you get way too worked up about trivial little things.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Renegade said:


> Some of you get way too worked up about trivial little things.


Not worked up at all, but when jungle responded back implying the reason I made mention was because it was taking away from my guide business, I wanted to set the record straight.

And yes, I do believe the permit required to video on forest service land is STUPID, but it IS the law. All I was attempting to do from the very beginning was give a heads up about a potential LEGAL snag with what he was offering, nothing more/less. Good day!


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree with ya 100% Pro. Have a great day.


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

Wow, what a thread!! Just one question, do all the average Joes who get PAID a finders fee for qualtiy animals they report to Doyle Moss and company or any other guide outfit fall under the outfit's special use permit? I don't see how they can unless they are taxed and certified "employees" of the outfit (which I doubt all of them are). In this case, aren't the individuals and the outfits at fault? There is potentially enough pending criminal cases out there to reduce our taxes by 5%. :roll: :lol:


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## Derek4747 (Jun 23, 2008)

This is the funny part to me. He basically advertised on here. This started the debate, but his auction price only went up 3 bucks. The item sold for $28.00


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Yee Hawwwww! I just won me a killer package. I don't have to do anything, but roll up in my truck and shot em'! You guys are all idiots for passing this one up. :wink: :mrgreen: :lol:


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## Derek4747 (Jun 23, 2008)

What if he sells more than 4 per year? Thoses secret spots wouldn't be so secret. :lol:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Flyfishn247 said:


> Wow, what a thread!! Just one question, do all the average Joes who get PAID a finders fee for qualtiy animals they report to Doyle Moss and company or any other guide outfit fall under the outfit's special use permit? I don't see how they can unless they are taxed and certified "employees" of the outfit (which I doubt all of them are). In this case, aren't the individuals and the outfits at fault? There is potentially enough pending criminal cases out there to reduce our taxes by 5%. :roll: :lol:


The guides are NOT required to have a special use permit, only the outfitter is. The guide(s) is an employee/sub-contractor, therefore he/she is NOT required to have a permit. Someone who receives a finders fee would NOT need a SUP. And, the number of people receiving finder fees is as common as finding a 250 inch buck or a 430 inch bull. Most of the stories are NOTHING more than urban myths and hearsay.

FYI, when I guide for an outfitter, Mossback or another, I do NOT have taxes removed by Mossback. I am my own business that is sub-contracting my services the same way a concrete guy does for a developer. Only the main contractor is required to have a license, the subs are exempt.

If you can find someone who actually has received a finders fee, ask him how much he was paid and whether or not he paid taxes on it. Good luck on that. :?


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

> The guides are NOT required to have a special use permit, only the outfitter is. The guide(s) is an employee/sub-contractor, therefore he/she is NOT required to have a permit. Someone who receives a finders fee would NOT need a SUP. And, the number of people receiving finder fees is as common as finding a 250 inch buck or a 430 inch bull. Most of the stories are NOTHING more than urban myths and hearsay.


I may have exaggerated my post a little by making it sound like finders fees are frequent occurances, but at the same time is has and still does occur, and that's a fact (and as a point, this is a first I have seen for the services Jungle is offering so one could argue that it happens more than what this post is about). My point is, you are accusing Jungle, and possibly rightly so, of illegal actions; his offense, providing information for use in harvesting big game animals on state or federal land without the proper permit. In my eyes, the individuals obtaining finders fees from guides and outfits fall very much in this same catagory, providing information for monetary compensation without the proper permits. So why do they not require a SUP, but Jungle does? Double Standard?



> FYI, when I guide for an outfitter, Mossback or another, I do NOT have taxes removed by Mossback. I am my own business that is sub-contracting my services the same way a concrete guy does for a developer. Only the main contractor is required to have a license, the subs are exempt


I understand this principle having put in six years of construction prior to enlisting in the Army. So what you are saying, Jungle's actions are legal so long as he is a sub-contractor who is selling the information to an outfitter who has a SUP or a guide who is working for an outfitter with a SUP? How many "employees" can an outfitter have working under their SUP?



> If you can find someone who actually has received a finders fee, ask him how much he was paid and whether or not he paid taxes on it. Good luck on that.


What others do that doesn't affect me or my interests I could care less. If they are paid $500 or $5000 it doesn't matter, so long as they pay their taxes on it. Working for the Man, my salary has to come from somewhere. :wink: . I'll let the IRS worry about what he/she was paid and whether or not he paid taxes on it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> I may have exaggerated my post a little by making it sound like finders fees are frequent occurances, but at the same time is has and still does occur, and that's a fact (and as a point, this is a first I have seen for the services Jungle is offering so one could argue that it happens more than what this post is about). My point is, you are accusing Jungle, and possibly rightly so, of illegal actions; his offense, providing information for use in harvesting big game animals on state or federal land without the proper permit. In my eyes, the individuals obtaining finders fees from guides and outfits fall very much in this same catagory, providing information for monetary compensation without the proper permits. So why do they not require a SUP, but Jungle does? Double Standard?


I am NOT accusing jungle of ANYTHING. I simple said if he is doing this w/o a permit, or operating under someone with a permit, he is at risk of getting fined. There is no limit/cap on how many sub-contractors an outfitter can have, he simply must have a permit to operate on a given US Forest or BLM tract.



> What others do that doesn't affect me or my interests I could care less. If they are paid $500 or $5000 it doesn't matter, so long as they pay their taxes on it. Working for the Man, my salary has to come from somewhere. :wink: . I'll let the IRS worry about what he/she was paid and whether or not he paid taxes on it.


I agree, like I said my intent was not to beat the guy up, or to turn him in. I was simply giving a friendly head's up. Then my motives were called into question, go figure. That will teach me to help a fellow hunter out. :? :wink: Unless they are willing to pay for it! :shock: Joking folks, only joking. Even though I am covered and can do so LEGALLY. :mrgreen:


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

Pro, I have seen you help a guy out plenty of times without expecting anything in return (except when you were supposed to get back to me about my Vernon hunt last year :wink: ), why anyone would question your motives is beyond me. Plus we all know you prefer to pursue your interests down south. I have no problem with guides or there business as long as they operate ethically and respect the aveage hunter out in the field. I would love to be a guide, not so much for the money, but for the time spent in the hills (beats the he11 out of Iraq or Afghanistan, where my current occupation takes me).

The interesting thing about guiding vs. the service Jungle is offering, there are new animals for guides and their clients to pursue each year, a renewable resource. Jungle's service is likely a one time deal, at least for that area. I give it a week and you will probably be able to Google it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I completely forgot about your Vernon tag. I owe you big time now. I have ADD, so I space stuff off all the time, just ask TEX. :?


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

You guys are right. $28.00 was a steal. Too low. I relisted it at buy it now at $89.00, bidding at $69.00. 

Only letting out two more.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

Jungle it does not matter how many people you let know about this so called speical area. it only takes one, and before you know it thier will be hundreds in this special area.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

sagebrush said:


> Jungle it does not matter how many people you let know about this so called speical area. it only takes one, and before you know it thier will be hundreds in this special area.


Doubt it will matter that much. Its limited entry. For a guaranteed tag, you needed 12 bonus points in 07.

Thow in the waiting period, and it might as well be once in a life time.


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## nochawk (Oct 26, 2007)

You only need 6, 7, or 8 for archery, check the draw odds...all 100% draw with those points.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

nochawk said:


> You only need 6, 7, or 8 for archery, check the draw odds...all 100% draw with those points.


Not to mention all ones friends/family/neighbors. I'm just saying.......I rarely will guide hunters from Utah for this very reason. the next year they take their friends/family/neighbors into areas they learned from me. Not very classy, but it happens. Areas that were once 'honey holes' are not crawling with folks, so I am more selective of whom I guide.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Like Phil Hendrie says; THIS IS PURE COMEDY GOLD!!!!


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

This is a hilarious post. K couple things. 
First off, the reason that the guides need the special use permit is because you profit from activities that you and your clients perform( in person) while on public land. The difference between that and what Jungle is doing is that Jungle is selling information, not a service that actually occurs on public land. It falls under the same jurisdiction as authors who publish books like "hiking the Unitas" I sincerely doubt that Jeffery Probst, the author, had to get a special use permit. And yet he is able to give detailed information on what to expect, fishing conditions at each lake, and areas that you are likely to see wildlife, including elk. I had to deal with this subject a bit (albeit not much) back in college, as I was the writer of the outdoor column for the school paper for a while. 

Second, while it isn't illegal in any way, I do see it being a little shady to post it in this forum, if Jungle is a member and plans of being here much, simply because it degrades the forum a bit and opens up a new can of worms, as well as makes it less likely for members to feel comfortable sharing information with each other. (holy crap that was a runon sentence wasn't it!) For all you know, your information ends up being sold in a scouting report. Although I do have to say from a business standpoint, Jungle definitely found his target audience, and will probably move a few reports. 

Make of it what you will, selling information isn't illegal, and he doesn't need a special use permit unless he and a client actually step foot onto public land, but if he does indeed profit from it then he would need a business license (although there are grey areas tothat as well, I mean technically you don't need a license to sell your stuff, i.e. garage sale, ebay, etc. I doubt he will get any flack from it unless he's bringing in enough money to incur the wrath of the IRS as well) And for all we know, he's already got one and a tax id number etc. 

The biggest thing to keep in mind though, is that the information is only as accurate as the author, and as up to date as the time it was compiled. Most of this information is from 2005, and won't reflect changes to the environment, or outside pressure. And in a matter of a few seasons, will only be good general information, but won't have any specific bearing about what's going on this year. Lets face it, when a guide takes you out, you don't care about where the deer was yesterday, it's right now that counts.

Anyway, that's my take on it.


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## TMT (May 5, 2008)

In my case it took zero bonus points to draw North Slope Archery tag this year!


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## troutstalker (Sep 11, 2007)

TMT, you're the luckiest person I know. That's two tags in two years.. What A PAB!!


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