# Did some stump shooting today.



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

If you dont know what stump shooting is, don't think too hard. It's exactly what it sounds like....shooting stumps. Also known as roving where a traditional archer will take a walk through the woods and find rotten stumps and logs at various distances and take a fling.









The bow is a Shakespeare Tioga manufactured in 1968. I picked up from a KSL posting for $20 from a guy here in Spanish Fork. It's a 45 pound at 28 inch draw which is probably closer to 42-43 pounds at my 27 inch draw.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I wasn't finding much wood that looked soft enough to not do an arrow in, so my target of opportunity was the meatier specimens of sage brush and rabbit brush to fire at. The bushes would put just enough drag on these low energy arrows to pull them out of flight and leave them lying in the snow right behind them. I played with two arrows today. One was a super light weight .600 spine Gold Tip Warrior. With only a 5.7 GPI, a standard aluminum insert and a 100 grain small game head they only came out to 310 grains. I had to screw in a 50 grain gold tip fact weight to get it up to 8 grains per pound of draw weight which is about the minimum weight you want to shoot out of a longbow or recurve to avoid too much stress on the limbs unless otherwise specified by the manufacturer. At 30 inches long with the 50 grain fact weight up front these arrows fly a little weak spined out of this setup.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

The other arrow was a .500 spine Gold Tip traditional also with a 100 grain small game head up front but no extra weight added to the 12 grain insert. Out of this setup these arrows flew a little stiff. When I get serious about making up an arrow for this bow I will probably get a little heavier GPI .600 grain shaft cut a little shorter and try to be at a finished arrow weight right around 400 grains.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I killed some of these guys today too. Got a complete pass through on one and lost an arrow.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I saw a guy on YouTube shooting this exact make and model of bow at my exact same specs. He was getting about 184 fps shooting a 410 grain arrow. This comes out to about 30 ft pounds of kinetic energy. Perfectly adequate setup for deer and smaller size stuff with a razor sharp 2 blade and a well tuned arrow. A lot of these trad guys today have drank the Ashby kool-aid and think you need to shoot a telephone pole to kill anything. I have played around with really heavy arrows and I don't love the trajectory. The old-time tradsters like about a 9 to 10 grain per pound of draw weight arrow which flies reasonably flat out to 25 yards and contrary to recent ideas will not bounce off an animal.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Good on you! Last time I had a go around with a "trad" guy cost me about $30 dollars in broken equipment. Note to self , don't shoot a blunt out of a compound at 30 yards into a stump.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

I don’t have much experience with trad bows compared to my compound experience, but the ones I have played with, shot the old Easton axis arrows pretty good. I think they were like 8.9 gpi, and the 340s flew true from a hoyt game master? (I think that’s what it’s called) that I have that’s 40ish lbs. i have “killed” exactly 1 big game animal with that setup and a big gnarly steel force 125 gr broadhead that I won a few packs of in a raffle at a 3D shoot one time. I was told by many ‘expert’ traditional hunters at the time, that set up might be enough for a small deer, but nothing more. The arrow was too small in diameter, it wasn’t heavy enough, the poundage on the bow was too light, the broadheads weren’t made for that set up, they needed to be 150 gr to work right, etc... This one animal was a clean up mission on a spike elk that a buddy had hit and couldn’t find. He called me one Sunday afternoon to come look and I happened to be in the area, but didn’t have my compound with me, just this recurve floating around under the back seat in my truck that had been there since I was trying to fill a doe deer tag with it at the time. Anyways, as luck would have it, I took the path of most resistance while searching the area and jumped this wounded spike out of his bed just feet from me in some thick deadfall (don’t ask me how I didn’t see him before he jumped up) and he stopped quartering away from me at what I estimated on the first shot to be around 20 yards. I’ll admit, the first arrow hit closer to his hoof than his heart, but he stayed put long enough for me to get another arrow knocked. Just as I drew back he went to take off and my instincts kicked in. I followed through on him and when I felt it was right I let it go, hitting him in the back of the head, right where the spine connects to the skull, dropping him immediately. Not where I had planned on the arrow ending up, but it worked. I got up to the elk quickly thinking he would need a follow up shot, but it was lights out for him by the time I got there, roughly 20 seconds after impact. That arrow penetrated up past the crest on it, almost to the fletchings, at a distance of what ended up being around 40-45 yards. My point of the story is, just cuz someone who claims to have more knowledge of certain topics says something won’t work, go with what you feel good about and what you have confidence in. Don’t listen to anyone else. You do you and have fun! Only koolaid worth drinking is the stuff you make on your own!


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> I don’t have much experience with trad bows compared to my compound experience, but the ones I have played with, shot the old Easton axis arrows pretty good. I think they were like 8.9 gpi, and the 340s flew true from a hoyt game master? (I think that’s what it’s called) that I have that’s 40ish lbs. i have “killed” exactly 1 big game animal with that setup and a big gnarly steel force 125 gr broadhead that I won a few packs of in a raffle at a 3D shoot one time. I was told by many ‘expert’ traditional hunters at the time, that set up might be enough for a small deer, but nothing more. The arrow was too small in diameter, it wasn’t heavy enough, the poundage on the bow was too light, the broadheads weren’t made for that set up, they needed to be 150 gr to work right, etc... This one animal was a clean up mission on a spike elk that a buddy had hit and couldn’t find. He called me one Sunday afternoon to come look and I happened to be in the area, but didn’t have my compound with me, just this recurve floating around under the back seat in my truck that had been there since I was trying to fill a doe deer tag with it at the time. Anyways, as luck would have it, I took the path of most resistance while searching the area and jumped this wounded spike out of his bed just feet from me in some thick deadfall (don’t ask me how I didn’t see him before he jumped up) and he stopped quartering away from me at what I estimated on the first shot to be around 20 yards. I’ll admit, the first arrow hit closer to his hoof than his heart, but he stayed put long enough for me to get another arrow knocked. Just as I drew back he went to take off and my instincts kicked in. I followed through on him and when I felt it was right I let it go, hitting him in the back of the head, right where the spine connects to the skull, dropping him immediately. Not where I had planned on the arrow ending up, but it worked. I got up to the elk quickly thinking he would need a follow up shot, but it was lights out for him by the time I got there, roughly 20 seconds after impact. That arrow penetrated up past the crest on it, almost to the fletchings, at a distance of what ended up being around 40-45 yards. My point of the story is, just cuz someone who claims to have more knowledge of certain topics says something won’t work, go with what you feel good about and what you have confidence in. Don’t listen to anyone else. You do you and have fun! Only koolaid worth drinking is the stuff you make on your own!


That's a great story! It would make some heads explode to hear that in some of the groups I am in. Guys are always saying goofy shiz like they only got 5 inches of penetration on an elk because they were only using a 550 grain arrow instead of the 650 that Ashby recommends. So much misinformation out there on the interwebs now and guys without the experience to know better just eat it up.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

middlefork said:


> Good on you! Last time I had a go around with a "trad" guy cost me about $30 dollars in broken equipment. Note to self , don't shoot a blunt out of a compound at 30 yards into a stump.





middlefork said:


> Good on you! Last time I had a go around with a "trad" guy cost me about $30 dollars in broken equipment. Note to self , don't shoot a blunt out of a compound at 30 yards into a stump.


Back in the day of single string bows all a guy needed for a target was a bale of straw. Once the wheel bows hit the scene guys started to realize they needed more than a straw bale to stop their arrows. I have spent a small fortune on 40 to 50 dollar bags full of rags! I don't imagine a compound would be very good for stump shooting!


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

colorcountrygunner said:


> That's a great story! It would make some heads explode to hear that in some of the groups I am in. Guys are always saying goofy shiz like they only got 5 inches of penetration on an elk because they were only using a 550 grain arrow instead of the 650 that Ashby recommends. So much misinformation out there on the interwebs now and guys without the experience to know better just eat it up.


Honestly it surprised me. I tracked the arrow in flight, looked good, I heard it hit and saw him fold up. Didnt know where it hit or how hard, that’s why I ran up there. When I saw how far it went it and what it went through, I was pretty surprised. So was everyone else. Thats some dense stuff and I did sever the spine. The broadhead was pretty tore up, it broke one of the bleeder blades off and the main blades were pretty chingered up, but it did more than what I thought it would and it certainly did far more than I was told it would.

just another example of proof that the experts are just experts of their own opinion and nothing more.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Shakespeare bows are cool. I have a 45lb Necedah....make my own cedar arrows.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

wyogoob said:


> Shakespeare bows are cool. I have a 45lb Necedah....make my own cedar arrows.
> View attachment 151282


How tough is it to make those arrows? I’m not sure I’d want to shoot something that pretty with as much time as I imagine they require to make


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

That's pretty awesome, Goob! At some point in the future I may want to try my hand at making woodies, but I'm still just getting my feet wet at shooting these struggle sticks. That Necedah bow seems to be one of the old Shakespeare bows you hear a lot about. They made those right around the same time as my Tioga. Shakespeare named the bows of this era after national forests in the state of Pennsylvania that they used as testing grounds for them hence Necedah, Tioga, Ocala, etc. If the 🐰 numbers weren't in the crapper almost everywhere in Utah I would be trying to get some bunnies with mine for sure.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

And I just know you made something tasty out of that cute little pile of fluff!


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> Honestly it surprised me. I tracked the arrow in flight, looked good, I heard it hit and saw him fold up. Didnt know where it hit or how hard, that’s why I ran up there. When I saw how far it went it and what it went through, I was pretty surprised. So was everyone else. Thats some dense stuff and I did sever the spine. The broadhead was pretty tore up, it broke one of the bleeder blades off and the main blades were pretty chingered up, but it did more than what I thought it would and it certainly did far more than I was told it would.
> 
> just another example of proof that the experts are just experts of their own opinion and nothing more.


This really surprises me too. The kind of penetration you are talking about is crazy from even a high energy compound. Let alone some little lightweight stick bow. I wonder how your 40ish pound Hoyt compares to a modern 30 pound compound. A little food for thought for all the guys that were screaming that the draw weight minimum rule change was unethical.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> How tough is it to make those arrows? I’m not sure I’d want to shoot something that pretty with as much time as I imagine they require to make


Well "make" means assemble. I'd buy the cedar shafts, cut them to length, paint a few stripes on them. Add knocks and tips and then the vanes. Now I buy them cut to length with stripes painted on them.

My go-to deer hunting bow for years was a 55# Shakespeare Kiabab.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> How tough is it to make those arrows? I’m not sure I’d want to shoot something that pretty with as much time as I imagine they require to make


I enjoy making arrows almost as much as I enjoy shooting them. I shoot 3 different bows and customize arrows for each. I experiment with different woods, weights, broadheads and fletching, but I especially get into cresting with all sorts of symbolism. I always make a dozen new arrows for hunting season even if I still have the dozen I made last year. Right now I'm trying to learn how to knap heads for primitive arrows. Am I a nerd?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

I think that’s pretty cool! I have a hard time trashing a carbon arrow i fletched myself with a mechanical head on it. I’d have a real hard time shooting one I put that much time into them as you guys do


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I absolutely love the look of wood arrows, but I don't have the skill and knowledge to make them up yet. My workaround is to use carbon arrows with a finish on them that makes them look like wood 🙂


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Finnegan said:


> I enjoy making arrows almost as much as I enjoy shooting them. I shoot 3 different bows and customize arrows for each. I experiment with different woods, weights, broadheads and fletching, but I especially get into cresting with all sorts of symbolism. I always make a dozen new arrows for hunting season even if I still have the dozen I made last year. Right now I'm trying to learn how to knap heads for primitive arrows. Am I a nerd?


If you take an animal with a head that you knapped yourself you will be the coolest nerd on the UWN!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

colorcountrygunner said:


> If you take an animal with a head that you knapped yourself you will be the coolest nerd on the UWN!


Speaking of flint knapped arrowheads has anyone heard anything about tex-o-rob at least I believe that was his username 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## anjapanica (11 mo ago)

How many points is the shot at the tree stump


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

I've always shot recurves. My first was a 55# Red Wing Hunter I bought in 1973. While in med school we lived close to the old International Trap and Skeet range in Rosemead, CA. There was a great archery range there, both a field range and a roving range. The roving range had a lot of brush, blackberry vines, etc, which held lots of cottontails. I bought a bunch of cedar shafts and made some blunt tipped arrows, using 357 Mag cases as tips. Worked great. This is from about 43 years ago:









I used Easton 2016s back then with 3-blade Satellite broadheads for big game. This was my first deer with that gear, taken up in the San Gabriel Mountains above San Dimas off Glendora Mountain Road:
















If you haven't read "Hunting With the Bow and Aroow", by Saxton Pope (of Pope and Young, BTW), you're missing out. I read it way back when, and even made a quiver from greenhide according to the description in the book. I made up some cedar arrows tipped with the classic Zwickey 2-bladed Eskimo broadheads and took this buck here in Utah. Close range, like 12 yards. He watched me as I slowly raised my bow, came to full draw and released. Note the complete penetration from my 70# Howatt Hunter:









Stump shooting is a lot of fun. You really need cheap arrows, though. Making up cedar arrows isn't difficult. I have dipping tubes and use lacquer, then a homemade cresting jig. Put on a nock, fletch them up and you're good to go:


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

That Pope and Young book is one I intend to read soon. I read a little about their hunting exploits and their time with Ishi "the last wild Indian" in Traditional Bowhunting by TJ Conrads. How is working back up to that 70 pound Howatt going? You must be doing a lot to stay fit and active. Being able to shoot a 70 pound recurve well is a feat at any age, let alone 70.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> Speaking of flint knapped arrowheads has anyone heard anything about tex-o-rob at least I believe that was his username
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


It was Tex O Bob.
His name is Darin Gardner, he was fighting some health issues a couple of years back, I don't know how he is doing.
I think he is from Kaysville.

This was a fundraiser for him last year.








Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife hosts Darin Gardner Fundraising Breakfast


Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (SFW) and Utah's outdoor community came together to help a man in need. Darin Gardner, a friend, taxidermist, and conservation supporter, is fighting heart failure. The last few months have been the biggest fight of his life.




video.ksltv.com


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Pope wrote the book, Young was his friend and hunting partner. The book is a must read for any archer, more so for trad guys. 

Ishi died of TB, Pope was his doctor. While a student at UCLA I searched the library and found more writings by Pope, including his clinic notes and Ishi's autopsy. Pope carefully recorded his physical exam findings and even diagramed them. The terms he used are still in use today, but I've never seen any physical exam notes as detailed as Pope's. Now we just order imaging tests.

The 70# Howatt has gotten heavier over the years, but no worries. I chronographed it along with my 60# HH, they both did 180-181FPS. So I'll shoot the 60# from now on. Not sure why they both shot the same, I repeated the test multiple time with 10-shot strings. No sense pulling 10# more for the same performance.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> Speaking of flint knapped arrowheads has anyone heard anything about tex-o-rob at least I believe that was his username
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


Last I heard he was in the hospital knocking on deaths door. But I think he got well enough to go home? Don’t know more than that


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