# Elk: Death by wolves or death by man.



## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Okay, I've recently watched a few documentaries on wolves. I've watched them harass, chase, and take down elk. I have nothing against wolves in general and I know nature is a rough, tough, unsympathetic place. But watching the wolves attack the elk gave me a sick feeling. I felt sympathetic toward the elk and found myself wanting to see the elk escape. Maybe it was the fact that it was usually 4 or 5 wolves to 1 elk, I don't know, it just bothered me.

I've also noticed that when I watch a video of a human hunter take down an elk with a rifle or a bow, I get a sick feeling too, but not as bad as I do when I watch wolves kill. With a human killing I get the feeling it is more for sport, pride, and ego. I often find myself wondering if the hunter needs the meat, and that it is a waste of such a majestic animal.

So, if both the wolves and the humans need the meat, killing is okay. I still find myself feeling somewhat sympathetic to the elk. This comes from a person who in their younger years loved to kill. I used to kill tons of Jackrabbits, and fish. I used to trap for fur. I've stopped hunting and trapping for the most part. I practice mostly catch and release when I fish. I love to call coyotes, but don't necessarily care if I shoot one and haven't been out for a few years. I love being out where the hunting takes place. I love to hike and spend time outdoors, I just don't feel like I have to hunt.

Anyway, that is a long lead into the two question I have. Most hunters like to kill. Most hunters don't like the fact that wolves kill. Question one: Do most hunters not like wolves killing because they feel like the wolves are killing something they want to kill? Question two: Are there any other hunters who used to love to kill deciding that it's not all it's cracked up to be, and going through a similar transformation like mine?


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

I find that the older I get the more it's about the experience and less about what I "kill" or harvest. Harvesting wild game is an important part of wildlife management. If you've ever seen the effects of starvation and die offs of wild game I think you would agree that harvesting game is part of conservation. That being said, I absolutely detest these "hunting" shows on TV where the guys and gals go whooping it up, high fiving and generally acting like 12 years olds playing a video game when they harvest an animal. I've never acted that way and was always taught respect and appreciation to the game I just harvested. Grandpa would have knocked my block off if I had acted like many of those clowns on TV. It just makes me sick to my gut anytime I wound an animal. I've been known to strip down to my boxers and walk out into absolutely freezing water chest deep to recover a downed duck.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

this day in age, no hunter "needs" the meat. Hunting is so expensive you'd be better off going to costco for food if you were in true need. I hope most hunters enjoy the meat and if they're like me, I hate a year where I don't have venison in the freezer. Hunting is a conservation tool, a tradition and boy do I love it! But there are definitely times I feel bad about certain hunting shows on tv and what not. I hate seeing trapping shows. It absolutely drives me nuts thinking about an animal suffering in a trap. I love hunting and a quick clean kill and thank the animal for some great meat. But most of all, hunters can truly appreciate what it takes for that meat to reach the table, the sacrifice and work to get it there. I'd rather have the blood on my hands so to speak, than not know what it takes and just always expect it done for me like other city slickers.


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## polarbear (Aug 1, 2011)

I was taught at a young age that taking a life is huge responsibility, and hunting is something we do for food, enjoyment of the Earth's splendor, and camaraderie. Whether I hunt or not, an animal is going to have to die so I can eat meat. I would rather be a part of the process. With that said, the older I get the more I have to curtail the urge to kill for the different reasons. I think it's a combination of the current hunting culture with the natural progression of a hunter to try to "one up" himself. This is easily confused with the urge to "one up" other hunters. Soon it becomes a trophy competition and can change the focus. I'm not saying it's wrong, but I personally don't like the way it makes me feel when I get caught up in it. I do get a feeling of fulfillment, relief, and accomplishment, especially when I kill a "trophy", but I always have to remind myself to do it in a spirit of gratitude and not "ego-tude" or cruelty. I personally believe that cruelty in any form is offensive to God. 

We all hunt for different reasons, and we all have to find our own justification for what we do and how we do it. If you can justify it and sleep at night, then that is how you should hunt. However, for me personally, if hunting ever starts to border on cruelty, I'm going to need to rethink things.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

utahgolf said:


> this day in age, no hunter "needs" the meat. Hunting is so expensive you'd be better off going to costco for food if you were in true need.


Not even remotely close for me. Some years I spend as little as $5 (gas) to fill my deer tag (beyond license costs).

People that say store's are cheaper are comparing burger prices to deer steaks. A more apt comparison would be steaks to steaks. Price that out sometime.

-DallanC


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

This kind of sums it up for me.

*One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job.* *Jose Ortega y Gasset**, Meditations on Hunting
Spanish philosopher & politician (1883 - 1955)*

However, I don't hunt rabbits or coyotes, I eat what I hunt unless it is a predator messing with my livestock or family, but then I kill it I don't hunt it.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Great subject HighNDry. You are not alone at all. I find myself in the exact same boat, and heading on the same path as you. I enjoy hunting for sure - but never have enjoyed the killing part. So like you, my hunting has transitioned. I doubt I'll even buy a tag this year. Instead, I'll go fly fishing. I get to be out during the best time of year in the outdoors and yet not kill things for amusement. My next hunting purchase is going to be a high quality DSLR camera. 

Not to overthink the whole wolf thing here - but I would suggest that there are a couple of reasons hunters generally don't like wolves. First, wolves take elk that hunters could take, so they see it as stealing from what they like to do. But second, and this could be a deeper thought - is that there is a VERY fine line between wolves and people as predators. They hunt in groups. They take every advantage they can, they kill for food, and they kill for fun. The only differences is the wolves don't stuff the heads of their kill, nor do they show any restraint. That last one is a big thing though. Human hunters can and do show restraint. But when we face wolves as fellow predators, we also see aspects of ourselves that perhaps we are not prepared, or willing to come to grips with. And that is a harsh realization.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Not even remotely close for me. Some years I spend as little as $5 (gas) to fill my deer tag (beyond license costs).
> 
> People that say store's are cheaper are comparing burger prices to deer steaks. A more apt comparison would be steaks to steaks. Price that out sometime.
> 
> -DallanC


so five bucks total huh? what year are you in? click on the youtube link haha


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

So many shows on tv where hunters talk about needing the meat to provide for their family. Meanwhile the hunter is dressed in sitka gear, a pair of danners, brand new bow, range finder, and is hunting while being guided out of state. It cracks me up. I just admit I don't "need" the meat like 99.9 percent of hunters these days. I love hunting, it's a conservation tool and a way to get your own meat and have a better appreciation for it. My friends have no clue what goes into that meat reaching the supermarket or that something died for them to enjoy their barbecues. etc.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

HighNDry said:


> ..........................................
> 
> Anyway, that is a long lead into the two question I have. Most hunters like to kill. Most hunters don't like the fact that wolves kill.
> 
> ...


*
answers in red*

.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

For me, hunting is primarily about the experience/challenge. Before we had kids that are too young to go with us right now, hunting with my wife was an extremely rewarding experience, and it's one that I really miss. I can barely wait till my young family is out there with me again! hunting with my Dad, Brother, and his boys is still one of the best hunting experiences I've ever had. Steve Rinella explained quality of fun in an interesting way. Something to the effect that there's fun that's fun in the moment but it doesn't require any kind of sacrifice to obtain. That's low quality fun, and it can be forgotten easily. Then there's fun that comes with some sacrifice, sometimes great sacrifice. These are the things that you might be miserable while you're doing them but you'll remember them forever, the things you talk about at camp fires, and the stories people really want to hear when they ask you about hunting. That's hunting for me. Even hunts in the sleet or snow, hunts where we didn't see many animals let alone fill tags, waking up hours before sunrise to be where we wanted as first light made it's appearance; those are experiences that can't be bought with money and don't require killing to enjoy.

But, I'd be lying if I said that the meat doesn't play a large role in why I still hunt. Not that I can't afford "store meat" but I prefer game meat to any domestic animal. I can honestly say I don't like the killing part. Didn't want to pull the trigger several times on some cottontails this last year, but the thought of eating them won me over.



DallanC said:


> Not even remotely close for me. Some years I spend as little as $5 (gas) to fill my deer tag (beyond license costs).
> 
> People that say store's are cheaper are comparing burger prices to deer steaks. A more apt comparison would be steaks to steaks. Price that out sometime.
> 
> -DallanC


Don't know about Utah, but down here tubed burger from walmart cost over $4/lb right now. Good steak of similar quality to what you'll get hunting is going to cost over $10/lb. Might not be financially beneficial to some, but it is for me. Then again I hunt the cheap (general) hunts and don't hunt out of state.

Edit: Oh, and I wear cheap clothes (blue jeans or other work pants, $30 base layers, work coats, etc.) when I hunt, reload my own ammo, and process my own game. I also don't count anything that I would do even if I wasn't hunting as a hunting expense. I used to keep track of what it cost per pound to hunt and it usually came out in my favor sometimes not. But again the reason I hunt is not for economy of meat.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

utahgolf said:


> so five bucks total huh? what year are you in? click on the youtube link haha


2012, shot a buck opening morning just over 2 miles from my house. Was muzzleloader season, 1 shot burned a whopping 90grns of pyrodex from a bottle I was given 10 years ago. Slug was .18cents if you divide out the $10. And about a gallon of gas. Cut it up myself with my wife. So yea, as low as $5 some years excluding license cost.

Elk tags I get for free so there isn't even a tag cost there. Excluding elk butcher fees (I refuse to cut up my own elk... too big, too much work), Its a rare year we ever spend more than $100 filling 3 deer tags and a elk between me, wife and the boy. The deer we get nearly in the backyard, elk are less than an hour drive.

Some of us can do it on the cheap /shrug.

-DallanC


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## paddlehead (May 30, 2014)

There have been some interesting statements posted on this thread. I hunt not to kill, but to be in the outdoors and take my part in the natural way of things. To spend time with my family and friends. To appreciate and cherish life in all forms. The kill has little do with the sport, past time or heritage. I enjoy the kill the least of all. I enjoy the pursuit as an evolved and intelligent predator, selected by tens of thousands of years of evolution. We are a hunting and predatory species. We have to kill to survive, whether by our own hands or someone hired to do it for us. I have not bought ANY red meat in my entire life. I have NEVER bought any fish. I enjoy knowing where my food comes from and who processed it (ME). I eat everything that I kill. I prefer it to any beef steak or farm raised fish out there. 

As far as wolves are concerned, they are a super predator. I am fine with wolves in areas that ore off limits to natures other super predator (US). Where hunters are allowed to hunt, there can only be ONE super predator. Game can be very effectively managed in those areas by selective harvest. Because sportsmen dollars pay for the management of wildlife, and specifically hunt able game, there is a conflict. Wolves are being allowed to kill the game hunters pay to manage, and hope to harvest. Don't forget that hunters also fund in large potion the management of wolves, whether they like it or not.

Anti hunters say we are not humane or ethical. Obviously they have never watched a wolf or coyote eat a deer or an elk from the back side, inside out while the animal is still alive. That is the most painful thing to watch in the natural world. Humans are the MOST ethical predator that has ever lived.

I dislike wolves for the fact that for every elk or deer they kill, it is one less I MIGHT have the opportunity to pursue, of which my sportsmen dollars help manage.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I think all hunters go through different stages in life when it comes to hunting. They don't always follow these stages and may even skip stages. Their own hunting backgrounds or experiences shape their own hunting views.

The new hunter could care less what they shoot. If they get a big one it's icing. 

The next stage seems to have something to prove often hiking miles to take a big buck. 

Then comes the money group. Cant hike like a young buck but still likes to get a big ones. This group has more money and will hunt out of state or in state and prefers to restrict others so he can fulfill his selfish desires.

Last stage is been their done that. Likes having a tag in hand but knows the only way to ruin a good hunt is to put something down. They may still shoot something if it's close to easy access but usually it's not a about them. They often enjoy seeing or teaching others to succeed in doing what they enjoy.

What ever stage of hunting I'm in I've always taken pride in the care of the meat. I may not eat all the various guts like Goob but we will eat just about everything else.


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

"need" is subjective. I won't starve if I eat tag soup, but I will save hundreds if not thousands of dollars if I take an elk. 
The correct comparison I believe is price out a full beef some time and then compare that to the cost of a full elk. (especially if you do the butchering). 

This last fall we ate game birds at the very least of once a week, its healthier and cost me the price of gas.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

HighNDry said:


> Okay, I've recently watched a few documentaries on wolves. I've watched them harass, chase, and take down elk. I have nothing against wolves in general and I know nature is a rough, tough, unsympathetic place. But watching the wolves attack the elk gave me a sick feeling. I felt sympathetic toward the elk and found myself wanting to see the elk escape. Maybe it was the fact that it was usually 4 or 5 wolves to 1 elk, I don't know, it just bothered me.
> 
> I've also noticed that when I watch a video of a human hunter take down an elk with a rifle or a bow, I get a sick feeling too, but not as bad as I do when I watch wolves kill. With a human killing I get the feeling it is more for sport, pride, and ego. I often find myself wondering if the hunter needs the meat, and that it is a waste of such a majestic animal.
> 
> ...


And how do you feel about fishing, considering your avatar? You don't feel a sense of guilt dragging a poor fish around that has been impaled through the mouth with a sharp hook? Removing it from the water while it suffocates? How is that different than trapping? Hunting?

-DallanC


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

DallanC said:


> And how do you feel about fishing, considering your avatar? You don't feel a sense of guilt dragging a poor fish around that has been impaled through the mouth with a sharp hook? Removing it from the water while it suffocates? How is that different than trapping? Hunting?
> 
> -DallanC


do fish even feel pain from a neuro-physiological standpoint? I thought they didn't and it's completely different from what we consider pain when talking human and animals.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

DallanC said:


> 2012, shot a buck opening morning just over 2 miles from my house. Was muzzleloader season, 1 shot burned a whopping 90grns of pyrodex from a bottle I was given 10 years ago. Slug was .18cents if you divide out the $10. And about a gallon of gas. Cut it up myself with my wife. So yea, as low as $5 some years excluding license cost.
> 
> Elk tags I get for free so there isn't even a tag cost there. Excluding elk butcher fees (I refuse to cut up my own elk... too big, too much work), Its a rare year we ever spend more than $100 filling 3 deer tags and a elk between me, wife and the boy. The deer we get nearly in the backyard, elk are less than an hour drive.
> 
> ...


well I am jealous of where you live. But for 99 percent of people it is cheaper if they are in dire need for food to get it from a store. I am talking food to sustain themselves, not a beef vs vension. Grains/cereals etc...


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Hell back when I drank I would cut up an elk for a case of beer:mrgreen:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Lots of thoughts here, but I'll try and keep it simple. But it probably won't be. That's why this is a good topic! 

First, nobody "needs" the meat. There are other options for the meat, and you can actually survive without any meat at all. So anyone saying they "need" the meat is not 100% true no matter who says it, at least in the world we in Utah live today. I like the meat. My family is genuinely disappointed I did not kill an elk this year to fill the freezer. I'm down to my last few steaks and packages of burger. It has been nice not buying beef of the last 18 months. But certainly wasn't a "need." 

The killing part does not bother me at all. Watching an elk killed by a hunter doesn't bother me at all. Watching an elk killed by a pack of wolves is a little disturbing, just because it is a slow, painful process. I don't like to see anything suffer. I will say that each animal I have killed, I have felt some measure of sorrow when I approached it. But there is not trepidation in pulling the trigger for me. I respect the animal. I respect life. But I understand very clearly hunting is a blood sport, and I'm okay with it. 

I've fly fished for 20 years. It's also a blood sport. Not every fish you release lives, no matter how careful you are. You may not see them die, but some of them still die, nonetheless. 

I hunt because I like it. I like almost every single part of it. I have been very excited about kills in the past. I have even been one of those that hooted and hollered and offended some of you so badly. I will say this, I was just as excited when I killed my cow elk with my 6 year old there with me as I was when I killed my 34" buck. Again, I enjoy hunting. The kill is the culmination of a lot of time, energy, preparation, and in some cases sacrifice. Why not enjoy it? If that isn't your cup of tea, certainly don't bash others because they actually enjoy what they are out there doing. 

I sit and listen to people say that the kill isn't important, then why even have a tag? You can literally get every single other aspect of the hunt by going out into the woods without a tag. I don't buy it. I think too many people try to put this higher pedestal of hunting out there that it is just all about "the experience" and not the killing. Again, there isn't one single aspect of "the experience" that you can't get by simply just going out into the hills without a firearm, bow, tag, etc. That doesn't mean that it is ALL about the kill. And I've had hunts where I didn't fill the tag that I consider a success still. But I can't say I've ever had a tag that went unfilled where I didn't feel some measure of disappointment. Otherwise, like I said...why not just go out and chase them with a camera instead of a tag and a gun? In fact, I plan to do that very thing this year if I don't end up with an elk tag. I will greatly enjoy it, but it won't be hunting. Part of hunting is killing. It's not all about killing, or it would be called killing instead of hunting. But it is part of it, and an important part of it. 

Now back to the wolves...I don't mind wolves. I wouldn't even mind them getting a hold in Utah to some extent if the circumstances were right. I don't mind when wolves kill elk. I don't really want to watch it happen, as I said before, it's a little disturbing. What I do mind, nay...despise, is unmitigated wolves. I despise some hippie that has never stepped foot out of California in their life telling Montana that they have to have wolves and there is nothing they can do about it. I don't like saying they are endangered, when they are not. I don't like or appreciate some factions saying we can't hunt them to keep them in check, but we just have to let nature take its course. That is stupid, and irresponsible in my opinion. If we're going to have wolves, manage them the way we do everything else. If we can't manage them, and have to just let them run rampant and wild with no control, then I don't want them.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

"I sit and listen to people say that the kill isn't important, then why even have a tag? You can literally get every single other aspect of the hunt by going out into the woods without a tag. I don't buy it."

I can't help it if you don't "buy it" but it's the way many of us older folks feel. My hunt is never gauged successful or fulfilling if I pull the trigger or I don't pull the trigger. I get more enjoyment out of watching my grandson take a Mallard or Teal in flight than I do taking that same bird myself. I can't begin to estimate how many game animals I've killed (ducks, squirrels, rabbits etc) in my lifetime but I'm quite certain the number is well over 2,000. You can't hunt that type of game for 50 years and not get to a point that the "thrill of the kill" isn't what it used to be.....but that's just my opinion.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Dunkem said:


> Hell back when I drank I would cut up an elk for a case of beer:mrgreen:


And I'd have given you 2 cases to do mine and considered it a hell of a deal.

:mrgreen:

I bring'em out whole which is enough work in and of itself, then give them to my butcher who LOVES to work on a whole hanging carcass just like a beef. I don't even skin them first assuming its cool enough (keeps the dust off the meat). He does a steller job and I'm happy with how it all works out.

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

LostLouisianian said:


> "I sit and listen to people say that the kill isn't important, then why even have a tag? You can literally get every single other aspect of the hunt by going out into the woods without a tag. I don't buy it."
> 
> I can't help it if you don't "buy it" but it's the way many of us older folks feel. My hunt is never gauged successful or fulfilling if I pull the trigger or I don't pull the trigger. I get more enjoyment out of watching my grandson take a Mallard or Teal in flight than I do taking that same bird myself.


You see, there is still a kill involved in your statement there. It may not be you doing the killing, but it is still there. You were a part of it. I feel the same way. When my kids get old enough to hunt, if they still have the desire, I will mentor every single tag I get to them (unless I win the lottery and draw bison, because that's my dream hunt, and I'm selfish like that). I get the same enjoyment with helping people catch a fish on a fly rod. It is a rush for me to help someone do it that doesn't know how to do it on their own. In fact, sometimes when I go I spend very little time with the rod in my hand when I take newer people to sport. But that doesn't mean I don't still love catching fish.

I don't have to pull the trigger every time I go out either, but I will ask you specifically since you called BS on my statement...why even get a tag? Why don't you just go out and enjoy the "experience?"



LostLouisianian said:


> I can't begin to estimate how many game animals I've killed (ducks, squirrels, rabbits etc) in my lifetime but I'm quite certain the number is well over 2,000. You can't hunt that type of game for 50 years and not get to a point that the "thrill of the kill" isn't what it used to be.....but that's just my opinion.


I haven't killed 2000+ animals, unless ****roaches count. If so, I called that a good Tuesday when I lived in Africa. I can understand that things ebb and flow, and it may not be what it used to be, but it is still there to some extent. Otherwise, you wouldn't hunt. If one completely lost the desire to kill (or harvest, for the sensitive) an animal, then they would stop hunting. I used to be absolutely duck crazy. If I went an entire week without duck hunting during the season I went stir crazy and felt like I was going to die. I didn't go duck hunting a single time last year. First time that has happened since I started hunting 23 years ago. I've lost a little of my passion for it, to be honest. Not sure why. But then again, I'm sure it will come back fairly quickly once I'm sitting in the blind again.

You see, I understand what you are saying, I'm just always bothered when people try and portray it as some level of zen they have achieved in hunting that all the rest of us have not got to yet. Too often that is how it comes across. And I don't buy it.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Well there is one thing I do take delight in shooting...cottonmouths. I despise those venomous buggers and do enjoy taking them out whenever I visit my brother and we go to his camp. That's about the only thing I've shot that I didn't eat. When I do harvest game I only harvest what I enjoy eating and will eat...hence we don't shoot coots and I won't allow my grandson to shoot anything we won't eat. I love eating ducks (except for shovelers and mergansers which we don't shoot), squirrels, rabbits, doves and raccoon's as well as deer, elk and buffalo. I might shoot a predator if it would be for predator control but honestly have never shot a predator before. I don't have an issue with people taking out yotes or any other predator if it is done within the legal framework that you're allowed to. For me, taking out a predator has nothing to do with me being a higher predator, it has to do with me not enjoying seeing how predators hunt and eat. I know that is natural and part of the cycle of life but there is nothing enjoyable about watching a pack of wolves eating an elk or other animal while they're still alive. Some people want us to believe that predators only eat sick or old prey, I often have wondered just how in the heck a wolf knows exactly which elk in a herd has a specific illness so that they can only go after that elk. Never figgered that one out.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

DallanC said:


> And how do you feel about fishing, considering your avatar? You don't feel a sense of guilt dragging a poor fish around that has been impaled through the mouth with a sharp hook? Removing it from the water while it suffocates? How is that different than trapping? Hunting?
> 
> -DallanC


While I have stirred the post in the past with regards to hunting and trapping, it is mostly my transformation I'm going through and I don't dislike hunting and killing in general, just noticed the wolves killing was making me feel bad.

I guess when it comes to fish, I'm not to the point of feeling bad for dragging them around by the lip. I realize that a percentage of the trout I catch may die after release. Right now, knowing that I could kill the fish or release it--and choosing to release it-gives me a good feeling right now. I will occasionally eat a few trout while camping or for lunch on a day trip. I have actually had to look away while I thumped their head on a rock, and felt bad in doing it. I have heard of fly fishers that practice pointless fly fishing where they fish for the rise. The hooks do not have points on them. That seems, well, pointless to me right now, but who knows, one could always move into that area too.

A neighbor shot an elk a few years ago and shared a couple of steaks with me. The meat was delicious. I have no qualms about eating game meat or meat in general.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Highanddry 
This is why no matter your hunting, trapping, fishing views we as hunters, trappers, fisherman need to stick together. Devided we each fall!


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

I have absolutly no problem with the taking of game meat.I process a few every year for family and am always greatful for the meat they give me.Ive been in the meat industry for over 50 years,so I take home the best.I will take a aged marbled ribeye over elk any day,but I still like elk.My big game hunting days are over with a gun,Ive shot my fill,and would rather catch them on film,but thats just me.Now upland game and waterfowl I cant get enough.Im not raining on anyones parade,we all do what we desire to do.If thats going after that buck or bull then go for it.For me in my later years I simply enjoy the beauty while I can.


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

utahgolf said:


> do fish even feel pain from a neuro-physiological standpoint? I thought they didn't and it's completely different from what we consider pain when talking human and animals.


As neither of us are fish, I don't think either of us are qualified to say what they feel.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

goonsquad said:


> As neither of us are fish, I don't think either of us are qualified to say what they feel.


I had one look at me once and he seemed chill with it


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## bow_dude (Aug 20, 2009)

Killing is life. There is nothing in this world that can live without the death of something else. Even plants. Plants do not normally do the killing, but they definitely live because of the death of some other living organism... and so it is with everything. 

I once read an article that changed my thinking. It was entitled, "Man's Dominion" written by Hugh Nibley. It said that all things have intelligence. That statement caused me to stop and think. It then went on to say that man is supposed to be the earths care taker, not it's possessor. It also reminded us that the earth and all it's inhabitants (plant and animal life) are for man's use and benefit. Use being the key word

That article changed my way of thinking forever. I hunt... I enjoy hunting... but I only kill something if I use it. I do not kill for sport. For me, the same principles apply to fishing. I fish, but I only keep what I will use. So, I suppose you could say that I am a selective killer.

Wolves... they have a right to live and feed their young as well as them selves. Wolves don't kill their game, they take it down and then start devouring it often before it is dead. This is offensive to me. So, why does it bother me? Probably because of the way predators kill. 

We live in a "cellophane" world where everything is wrapped up nice and pretty. Spend some time on a farm or ranch sometime and see what life outside city life is all about. You may have your eyes opened. Death is life, and life is death.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Good thread. (whoo-hooo, top of page!)



HighNDry said:


> Anyway, that is a long lead into the two question I have. Most hunters like to kill. Most hunters don't like the fact that wolves kill. Question one: Do most hunters not like wolves killing because they feel like the wolves are killing something they want to kill? Question two: Are there any other hunters who used to love to kill deciding that it's not all it's cracked up to be, and going through a similar transformation like mine?


I guess my turn to give my inflation adjusted 2 cents.

Question #1. I think the bulk of the animosity hunters have with wolves if from concerns (real and perceived) that wolves will over-utilize the mutually used prey resource. Like some others have mentioned, I feel that wolves have their place in our ecosystem. I also believe it is imperative that agencies have the tools to control them, as with other species.

Question #2. First, do hunters *like* to kill? I would say that it is different with each hunter, but it is part of the overall hunting experience. One of my childhood ******* hunting buddies did seem to "really" enjoy killing stuff, almost too much. It could be a bit unnerving. (Yes, he did grow up to be a responsible adult.) Over the years, I've encountered a few more of that type. I've also seen hunters that hunt and kill to prove their manhood, to fit in with the crowd, and to please parents, family, friends, etc. 
Most though hunt as part of participating in an overall enjoyable activity that involves the outdoors and bonding with family and friends and the kill is part of the activity that provides an endpoint of the activity and nutritious meat for them and their family. While I feel a lot of satisfaction with a good clean kill, my main response at the point of harvest is one of gratitude for the magnificent animal that surrendered its life for my continued sustenance and to my Maker.

Oddly, enough, from almost the beginning of my hunting days, I would decline to take shots at game if I wasn't in the mood and continue to do so. I also will only kill what I enjoy eating. If I don't enjoy eating the game, I won't hunt it. That is a reason I've gotten away from waterfowling the past few decades. I do consider it morally wrong to kill something for sport and not eat it. As for a "transformation", I saw this with my dad towards the end of his hunting days. He profoundly looked forward to the deer hunt for the entire year, but would rarely drop the hammer. He just wanted to be out in the hunting woods with me and his buddies. That was sufficient. I suppose that I'm getting softer too, but me and my family readily use and appreciate the meat and at least for deer, I've harvested on every tag I've had for the past few years and have been glad that I did.

Finally, I would say that the "hunting experience" is different for each of us and it is probably futile to accurately describe what another person gets out of it.

FWIW, for me, 100% C&R fishing presents a thornier ethical dilemma than hunting. Yanking a fish out of the water and scarring it with a hook solely for the derivation of pleasure. We can talk about that one on the fishing board sometime. ;-)


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

DallanC said:


> 2012, shot a buck opening morning just over 2 miles from my house. Was muzzleloader season, 1 shot burned a whopping 90grns of pyrodex from a bottle I was given 10 years ago. Slug was .18cents if you divide out the $10. And about a gallon of gas. Cut it up myself with my wife. So yea, as low as $5 some years excluding license cost.
> 
> Elk tags I get for free so there isn't even a tag cost there. Excluding elk butcher fees (I refuse to cut up my own elk... too big, too much work), Its a rare year we ever spend more than $100 filling 3 deer tags and a elk between me, wife and the boy. The deer we get nearly in the backyard, elk are less than an hour drive.
> 
> ...


I hope you appreciate the uniqueness of your situation. Most of us spend a lot more, even when we try to be "cheap".


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I have always hunted for meat. Years ago it seemed to be a far cheaper affair though and far more necessary. Growing up with a mother raising three kids, hunting and fishing was something I did to help out. My mother wanted and needed me to hunt and fish. It was cheap and necessary. I still love hunting, probably always will or at least I will always look back at my hunting days as some of my best experiences. At 48 I have a lot hunt left in me if I choose to but it is not what it once was for me. The cost, the hassle and the fact that I am just changing the way I think as a man has played a big part. I would just as soon go on a hike with my wife and take pictures. I could put meat on the table cheaper by many other means as well. One other thing is the fact that we are basically empty nesters and it doesn't take a big harvest to assure that it is pretty much the thing that we are having for dinner each night. I love a variety of meat and that also plays a part with not many mouths to feed. I like a mixture of elk, beef, pork, fish, chicken, game birds etc....

I have never enjoyed the part of killing even though I have killed many animals. I have never had a problem with the wolves doing what they do either. My problem with the wolf has always been just letting them go without management. Mankind has intervened to the point with everything that there is very little that we can just let "take it's course". Remove man from the picture and it is another story.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

My concept of people who empathize with the animals is that they're placing their concept of self way too close to that of the animal. One of the common things I've noticed is that when people start to feel too much empathy for animals, they even feel strong emotions at watching normal, natural predation. I don't even know how to get into the idea of why people like to expose themselves to these acts, and then agonize over it and force others to do so also. I suspect there's some strong guilt going on there.

Those are dumb animals whose existence is purely to provide food for predators. They have been evolving for millions of years to reproduce in such numbers and live in such a way that it is necessary for something to kill them, or they will overpopulate, waste away through many cycles of disease and eventually go extinct as a result.

You and your ancestors on the other hand have existed in your current form for maybe 35,000 years. We have come as far as we have thanks in no small part due to the use of animals, but still we're almost nothing compared to the history of the predator-prey relationship. It's highly arrogant to think that we should try to cut out predation of animals, or try to act like all humans should put away that part of our humanity because we're somehow enlightened.

Finally, a word to the hypocrisy of grocery store meat eaters, vegetarians, and vegans. Is it better to eat an animal that's been kept for two years in a paddock and jacked full of growth hormones? Almost all of them are. Not only is it less environmentally conscious to eat beef due to the fact that wild animals are more efficient than beef cows, it's less moral because of the life those animals live. Vegetarians and vegans are wearing shoes and clothes using glue made from cows and horses, using plastics that were molded using beef grease, sitting in houses with paint and plastic in their construction that used animal products. Corn, wheat and soy grows on land where rabbits and deer are killed to protect the crop, not only removing valuable land from the wild but causing more animals to die in the surrounding area. It could easily be argued that more loss of life happens in any given year from some vegan kid eating soy patties.

Edit: Oh yeah....all the milk and cheese you drink and eat? A baby cow has to die at least once a year for the dairy you consume to be produced.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm gonna take my turn later, top of page 9 or 10.

.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

Jedidiah said:


> You and your ancestors on the other hand have existed in your current form for maybe 35,000 years. We have come as far as we have thanks in no small part due to the use of animals, but still we're almost nothing compared to the history of the predator-prey relationship.


but the earth is only 5,000 years old. We all know this.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

utahgolf said:


> but the earth is only 5,000 years old. We all know this.


Then your answer is that God put the animals here for us to eat, as long as we don't drink milk with beef or eat any shellfish. Problem solved, ignore my previous post. Hey, by the way, I'm reading that book, don't ruin the ending for me. I have a good feeling about where this Jesus character is going, I think he's going to end up doing very well and living happily ever after.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Jedidiah said:


> Then your answer is that God put the animals here for us to eat, as long as we don't drink milk with beef or eat any shellfish. Problem solved, ignore my previous post. Hey, by the way, I'm reading that book, don't ruin the ending for me. I have a good feeling about where this Jesus character is going, I think he's going to end up doing very well and living happily ever after.


He's way cooler when you meet him in person....


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

LostLouisianian said:


> He's way cooler when you meet him in person....


Looks like it










-DallanC


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

this thread took a comical turn:mrgreen:
i still remember the first rabbit i killed with a pellet gun. one shot to the head and that thing kicked violently for at least 30 seconds but of course it felt like an hour. I was about 7 years old on my pawpaw's property in arkansas. I cried for about 10 minutes and had to come to grips with the reality. i was taught to respect life but no one taught me how to hunt (big game). that was something i learned on my own several years later. 

i am a meat hunter. horns are impressive but don't fill my freezer anymore than the next animal. i do pass on any animal with young but that's my choice. it may be irrational but it works for me.

as others have stated, i feel a bit bad about taking life but i'm reminded that i'm feeding my family quality hormone and antibiotic free meat. that is something i can't buy in a supermarket for a reasonable price or even reasonably believe the label that claims it. 

the hunt is a big part of the draw but the meat is the end game for me. i'd hunt beef cows too if i could.;-)


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Jedidiah said:


> My concept of people who empathize with the animals is that they're placing their concept of self way too close to that of the animal. One of the common things I've noticed is that when people start to feel too much empathy for animals, they even feel strong emotions at watching normal, natural predation. I don't even know how to get into the idea of why people like to expose themselves to these acts, and then agonize over it and force others to do so also. I suspect there's some strong guilt going on there.
> 
> Those are dumb animals whose existence is purely to provide food for predators. They have been evolving for millions of years to reproduce in such numbers and live in such a way that it is necessary for something to kill them, or they will overpopulate, waste away through many cycles of disease and eventually go extinct as a result.
> 
> ...


I was raised on a farm. Now I know why some of our baby cows died.

I love soy patties, also pork and chicken jacked full of hormones.

Some of my best friends are vegans that wear shoes.

Wolves are necessary; they support a lot of outdoor forums.


top of da page

.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

TS30 said:


> I sit and listen to people say that the kill isn't important, then why even have a tag? You can literally get every single other aspect of the hunt by going out into the woods without a tag. I don't buy it. I think too many people try to put this higher pedestal of hunting out there that it is just all about "the experience" and not the killing. Again, there isn't one single aspect of "the experience" that you can't get by simply just going out into the hills without a firearm, bow, tag, etc.


Sorry, but I ain't buying what you are selling! I will agree to a point, though, the anticipation or hopes of a kill will always be what drives my hunt...BUT, some of the absolute best hunts I have ever been on included no kills! This past rifle deer hunt, for example, resulted in my brothers and I seeing a whopping 3 does....in 4 hard days of hiking and hunting. Yet, I look back at it with as much or more satisfaction than any other hunt I have been on. Could we have had the same experience with just a camera? Hell no....the anticipation of what we might find around the next bend or up the next canyon was what drove me the whole time. I could go back to that same area and hike the same terrain and see a lot of big bucks and return with much less satisfaction...to put it simply, I could care less about a bunch of pictures of bucks or deer or scenery. So, sure....the kill is what drives me, BUT, the kill sure as hell doesn't determine a good time or not....and going without a tag wouldn't result in anywhere near the same level of satisfaction or fun!

In fact, my brothers were back in that same general area last week....I didn't have any desire to go with them! Why? None of us could shoot anything but rabbits and maybe a coyote, so why go?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Hunting without a gun is called Hiking, you can do that any time of the year. From season open to season close, I'm there to kill something, plain and simple.


-DallanC


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Going out hunting and not being successful might be fun but it's a failed hunt imho. Id never look back and say dang that was the funnest hunt I've ever been on where I only saw a hand full of does. The most rewarding hunts I've been on are always the ones where I worked incredibly hard with a plan and accomplished the goal. Antler size is irrelevent however to say it's totally out would be false.

Going out without a plan and tagging an easy animal off others hard work would also be a failure imho. 

Different strokes for different folks though.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

wyogoob said:


> I was raised on a farm. Now I know why some of our baby cows died.
> 
> I love soy patties, lso pork and chicken jacked full of hormones.
> 
> ...


Verrrrry funny. You know what I mean, things die to support everyone's lifestyle and that's the truth. Most people don't realize that it is necessary for cows to give birth fairly regularly in order for them to produce milk. If you eat meat, it just means someone else is killing an animal for you and most of the time that animal had a worse life than a wild animal would.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I guess i look at hunting a bit like I look at sporting contests--like a basketball game. To me, the goal of playing a game of basketball is to win. BUT, even if I don't win, I can look back at the game and say that it was fun to play. Is there some level of disappointment if I don't win or don't kill? Yes, absolutely. But, some of my best games and some of my best hunts ultimately ended without succeeding in winning or killing....that doesn't change the level of satisfaction I gained from playing those games or going on those hunts, though.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wyoming2utah said:


> In fact, my brothers were back in that same general area last week....I didn't have any desire to go with them! Why? None of us could shoot anything but rabbits and maybe a coyote, so why go?


Which is EXACTLY my point. You'd have read that more than one time in my various posts if you were less worried about trying to argue and more concerned with what someone is actually saying.

Further, I never said a single time that you have to kill something to have a good time. I actually said that I have had hunts where there was no kill that I considered successful. But like you, it is the kill that drives me ultimately. If I completely lost that desire to kill, like many zen-like folks try to claim, I wouldn't hunt anymore. And from your own statements here, neither would you. So looks you are buying what I'm saying, because we're saying the same thing.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wyoming2utah said:


> I guess i look at hunting a bit like I look at sporting contests--like a basketball game. To me, the goal of playing a game of basketball is to win. BUT, even if I don't win, I can look back at the game and say that it was fun to play. Is there some level of disappointment if I don't win or don't kill? Yes, absolutely. But, some of my best games and some of my best hunts ultimately ended without succeeding in winning or killing....that doesn't change the level of satisfaction I gained from playing those games or going on those hunts, though.


Which again....is EXACTLY what I said two pages ago. I agree 100% with this. You're a smart dude, Heppy!


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## devobrodie (Feb 7, 2015)

I really enjoy hunting, always have, never particularly enjoyed killing, but I think the Jose' quote above is dead on, I do need the food, it is just a matter of where I will get it, buy from the store? or get it by myself? I would always prefer to get it by my hunting. It gives me a great satisfaction knowing that I have raised my family(in SO CAL no less!) on wild game, and I know I sure spent way more to get it the way I did, than everyone else around here did! But I spend my money and time on something enjoy, and it is healthy as an alt. to the meat I could go and buy as a bonus. I try to only hunt things I eat, for that reason I stopped hunting waterfowl for the most part because no one in my family liked it. I would eat it , but never really liked the taste of duck. On the other hand we all eat and enjoy, deer, elk and our favorite is antelope. My wife has started hunting with me, while my son is off in the Marines, she in no way enjoys the killing aspect of it, but does enjoy the rest of it , including the success and being able to provide food for us as well.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Kill and harvest are two different things. Two different objectives. You don't have to enjoy one to appreciate the other. The kill has never been what drives me. It has always been the harvest. When a person lives for a period of time depending upon a harvest about the only thing that becomes really important is subsistence. Those that have never truly depended upon a harvest for subsistence should not be expected to understand. It is a different world and a world that many never leave in their mind once they experience true hunger for extended amount of time.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

With that said; its important to understand that you can't be driven to harvest without being driven to kill. The same goes for a farmer; bottom line is you have to kill to harvest. I would bet that 99.9% of us once we have that buck, bull, doe, cow, etc in our sights and pull the trigger then watch animal nose dive in the dirt our reactions are not "oh sad poor helpless animal". It is instead a rush of adrenaline and fist pumping or if buddies are around high fives ahoy. What separates us from the cymbals is that our focus immediately turns from the rush of the kill to the glory of our harvest and work to follow. Everyone else that kills are poachers, criminals or scumbags that waste life with disregard.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Sorry, but I ain't buying what you are selling! I will agree to a point, though, the anticipation or hopes of a kill will always be what drives my hunt...BUT, some of the absolute best hunts I have ever been on included no kills! This past rifle deer hunt, for example, resulted in my brothers and I seeing a whopping 3 does....in 4 hard days of hiking and hunting. Yet, I look back at it with as much or more satisfaction than any other hunt I have been on. Could we have had the same experience with just a camera? Hell no....the anticipation of what we might find around the next bend or up the next canyon was what drove me the whole time. I could go back to that same area and hike the same terrain and see a lot of big bucks and return with much less satisfaction...to put it simply, I could care less about a bunch of pictures of bucks or deer or scenery. So, sure....the kill is what drives me, BUT, the kill sure as hell doesn't determine a good time or not....and going without a tag wouldn't result in anywhere near the same level of satisfaction or fun!
> 
> In fact, my brothers were back in that same general area last week....I didn't have any desire to go with them! Why? None of us could shoot anything but rabbits and maybe a coyote, so why go?


W2U, your very much in the minority but so am I.:mrgreen:


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## greatwhitehunter (Nov 16, 2007)

I talked to a cousin recently who has been a big time hunter his whole life. We just recently hooked back up after 15 years and got caught back up on life. I found out he has quit hunting (shocked me!) I asked him "why" because I was wanting to go hunt with him again this next fall. 

He said, "I shot a deer a few years back, wounded it and had to walk up on it and finish it off. The deer was basically paralyzed from the waist down. It was groaning as it drug itself farther down the hill. Finally, it stopped, out of breath, pushed up on its front legs (like it was a dog sitting) tongue hanging out, it turned back at my cousin as if to say why?" 

He said that was a life changing experience for him and he never wanted to repeat that again so he hung up the hunting gear.

I will be honest, I have walked up on an animal that wasn't quite dead, finished it off and felt bad for the animal. It doesn't deter me from hunting though. I have a great respect for the animals I harvest and a deep reverence and appreciation for the whole experience after the kill. If that feeling ever leaves me, I too will hang up the weapon. However, I am quite certain it will not. I go into each hunt with respect towards the species I am trying to harvest. This is a critical part of my hunting list each fall. 

Make sure you each check the box next to "Respect and reverence toward species to be harvested" before you head to the hills this fall. It will help you develop the right attitude toward taking a life.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I like to kill things.
Mainly Mormon crickets. 
Can't get enough killing of those evil suckers.-O,-
Great bb gun practice.


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