# The DD vs. GWP Debate



## InvaderZim

What the hell. Let's rumble!

Seriously, the _hunting dog _section is getting a little boring...somebody's got to do it (we'll save the lab/pointer debate for next week.)

I'll go first. I am a setter guy through and through...my kinda pup. Gentle, neat, tidy little things...and soft. Complete opposite of a German dog, leastwise in my opinion.

But there is one similarity: there are many "lines" of English Setter. Ryman, Hemlock, field bred varieties. These are as different as peas and carrots. Some are HUGE slow working dogs, while others are quick, agile all age runners. They come in different colors too, black/white, tan/white, tri, etc. But here's the thing...they are ALL English Setters!!! They come from the same lineage, same genes, just bred for different attributes.

And believe me when I tell ya, setter owners are snobby as they come (just look at me :wink: ) and sure we all think "our" line is better for one reason or another...but we don't have the gall to suggest that they aint anything other than an English Setter.

So my theory is this: the so called DD is just one group of peoples "line" of GWP. They might be as different as day and night, but when it comes down to it...they are the same breed.

Now, convince me otherwise!


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## DEVIANT

+1... I too was originally caught up in thinking that they were different. I then asked my wife (she is German) and the translation is DD=GW. The only thing that does not translate is the "pointer" part of it. That is a distintion of the type of dog. When I asked Blue's breeder if he was a DD or a GWP...he said that it is a common question with a simple answer.... "They are in the same **** dog". I have followed the threads about DD vs. GWP and they all say that they are the same. If someone has to tell themselves that the DD is superior or even another breed then the GWP, keep telling yourself that. Maybe, as it was stated in an earlier thread...some people just paid too much and need a reason why. Either way, the rest of the world knows different!

Another thing that is misleading is the VDD (sounds like a disease) :shock: Verein Deutsch Drahthaar. Properly translated it is the "Association/Society/Union (you pick which one) of German Wirehairs".


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## TEX-O-BOB

GWP/VDD The same *DNA* runs in both dogs!

It's all science, you probably don't understand. :wink:


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## TEX-O-BOB

> It's all science, you probably don't understand.


Relax DDGuy, it's only a joke. I know you understand. :wink:


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## Firstarrow

> setter owners are snobby as they come


 insert LLEWELLIN :shock:

Either way an ugly dog or a setter both would be fun to own, if nothin else it would allow one to enter the fray.... (tongue in cheek(


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## Western Charm

I agree with what has been written with two exceptions. 1, The VDD is not a line of GWP, It would be the other way around as the GWP is much more recent in it's exhistance. And 2, Setter guys are snobs?????? Huh????? What??? Arrogant maybe...breed blind, absolutely, but snobs? That hurts. :wink:


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## DDGuy

Western Charm said:


> I agree with what has been written with two exceptions. 1, The VDD is not a line of GWP, It would be the other way around as the GWP is much more recent in it's exhistance. And 2, Setter guys are snobs?????? Huh????? What??? Arrogant maybe...breed blind, absolutely, but snobs? That hurts. :wink:


I know how you Setter snobs are. You all look like the LL Bean catalog and wouldn't think of shooting anything but a Merkel :wink:


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## InvaderZim

DDGuy said:


> I know how you Setter snobs are. You all look like the LL Bean catalog and wouldn't think of shooting anything but a Merkel :wink:


Merkle! They're trash! :wink:

DDguy, while I did make this post in jest, I was honestly hoping somebody could enlighten me on the subject...you perhaps?


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## InvaderZim

Firstarrow said:


> insert LLEWELLIN :shock:
> 
> Either way an ugly dog or a setter both would be fun to own, if nothin else it would allow one to enter the fray.... (tongue in cheek(


Damnit, I forgot about the whole Llewellin vs. E. Setter debate...you know we setter folks really aint no better!!!


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## Western Charm

> I know how you Setter snobs are. You all look like the LL Bean catalog and wouldn't think of shooting anything but a Merkel


Hey! I resemble that remark! :wink:

Ok Lynn:

Work with me...What language do they speak at the Merkel shop???? What country would be on the return address for a peice ordered from Merkel??? Hmmmm???? Holy Crap man!!! Have you learned nothing? It's the London, Birmingham and Edinburg proof houses for us.    

I have been standing there with a beautiful Setter pup on a leash and you walked up and didn't even giver her a look...You had Cora with you and I was all gushy over her etc.etc. sooooooo who is it that needs to learn how to play with nice others?? hmmmm?  

Have a good one.

Robb



> Damnit, I forgot about the whole Llewellin vs. E. Setter debate...you know we setter folks really aint no better!!!


There is no debate, everybody knows that Llewellins came from Large Munsterlander stock. :shock:

Robb


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## InvaderZim

Western Charm said:


> There is no debate, everybody knows that Llewellins came from Large Munsterlander stock. :shock:
> 
> Robb


Batta-boom! :!:

:lol:


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## DDGuy

Western Charm said:


> Work with me...What language do they speak at the Merkel shop???? What country would be on the return address for a peice ordered from Merkel??? Hmmmm???? Holy Crap man!!! Have you learned nothing? It's the London, Birmingham and Edinburg proof houses for us.


Sorry, I should have said Purdey. Been around too many krauts and their Drillings I guess.



Western Charm said:


> I have been standing there with a beautiful Setter pup on a leash and you walked up and didn't even giver her a look...You had Cora with you and I was all gushy over her etc.etc. sooooooo who is it that needs to learn how to play with nice others?? hmmmm?
> Robb


When and where did this snubbing take place? Sometimes I'm not too bright! I vaguely remember seeing you once at a navhda test or something. Your dad was telling me how as parents you try to raise them right and then one day they come home and tell you they want a Setter


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## Red-Grouse

I guess I am a complete hypocrite...... On one hand I get testy when folks suggest my GWP isn't as versatile as their VDD. I argue that there is more variation between VDD dogs than there is between VDD and GWP. On the other hand Llewellin setters are a superior breed to the [email protected] field bred setters they are the complete package!!!


Yes I have my rose colored glasses on!

HOWEVER..........

I am displeased that a setter owner would suggest that another setter owner would allow a LM to even enter their property let alone mix with his settersespeacily Llewellin setters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I guess those field bred setters have suffered the same fate of the GSP in that they have been violated by English pointers!!!!!!!!!!! But were they Elhew pointers or english pointers!!!!!!!!!! Because my Elhew is a whole different dog than tose regular old english pointers!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Western Charm

Hey Thack:

Don't get too wound up I could go all day :lol: :evil: . Want to talk cross bred setters? Just take a look at the Gordons and Irish. I'll bet the **** hound fanciers were laughing their ever lovin asses off on those, ahem...uh...ahem..._birddogs_. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

I am volunteering this morning at a clinic in Salt lake so I will be back to cross swords with you guys later.

Robb


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## Western Charm

Ok: I have given some serious thought as to how to clear things up and have it make sence to all parties and hopefully make the underdogs feel more a part of the respective families. So here it goes...What L setters and GWPs share in common is this...They are both culls!!! From the real deal....Bwahw haw ha ha HEEEEEE HAAAAW. Somebody stop me!!! This is why they show identical DNA but get no inheritance/respect.


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## Red-Grouse

You have to love these arguments more than the my breed is better than your breed because; you have to deal with I pretend my breed isn't cross bred to any pointers and is better than your DNA tested pure strain of superior setters :lol: because your breed is ..well........um......................shut up Richard!


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## Red-Grouse

It finally came to me we could just simplify this debate to include everyone....here goes.......

Is The llewelin setter, VDD, Elhew, British lab, English springer, or the English ****er the most pure bred bird dog??? I thin I got them all of them in there.


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## Western Charm

I am dumb enough to take pride in our outcrosses. Aaaaaaand by the way I doubt that outside the grouse trialers that we used any Elhew pointers...All age pointers of the south are where my bets are.  

Robb


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## Virgil

There is only one major difference between a DD and a GWP.........testing.
The is no member of the pedigree of a DD that has not been tested and passed, period.
If there is, it's a GWP, not a DD.
Every single dog in the pedigree of a DD has passed the puppy test (natural ability) and a fall breed test as well as been checked for any other defects. Bad teeth, bad hips, eyes, coat, whatever.
As soon as you breed one that has not gone through all this rigorous testing, you have yourself a well bred GWP.
Does that make them the same dog? Yes. Does it make them equal? Maybe, maybe not.
The DD line is all about having a standard and making sure the lines stay within that standard and it is constantly improved on.
Good GWP breeders should be striving for the same thing, even if their standard may be a bit different. (less fur drive, shorter coats, longer coats, whatever it is)
The difference is, you will also find the back yard bread GWP that is not worried about passing on any traits, just making a quick buck.
You will not find that in a DD. It is far too difficult to get them breed certified to just try and make a quick buck.


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## 16 Gauge

Funny, I thought there was only one real German hunting dog? That would be my German Shorthaired Pointer (GSP) if you want initials'. Of course he won't hunt rabbits which is fine with me. Oh yea he and he's much better looking than those other german (small 'g') dogs


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## Anaconda Pintler

?? :roll:


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## InvaderZim

Anaconda Pintler said:


> ?? :roll:


Confused again?

Your's are just mangey wirehairs.... :wink:


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