# San Juan Accusations



## twinkielk15

I got accused of doing the San Juan Shuffle on the Lower Provo on Thursday evening. I admit to shifting my feet frequently but I don't dig. I have not been able to afford a good pair of boots and so I fish in some very thin and VERY uncomfortable neoprene booties. I can feel every little pebble and my feet cramp in the cold water so I shift around a lot. I guess I'm feeling guilty because it never occurred to me that everyone around me thinks I'm fishing dirty. I'm hoping that finding some good boots will fix this. Until then, if you see a really tall, bearded man doing a slight shuffle, he might just be extremely uncomfortable.


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## Catherder

twinkielk15 said:


> I got accused of doing the San Juan Shuffle on the Lower Provo on Thursday evening. I admit to shifting my feet frequently but I don't dig. I have not been able to afford a good pair of boots and so I fish in some very thin and VERY uncomfortable neoprene booties. I can feel every little pebble and my feet cramp in the cold water so I shift around a lot. I guess I'm feeling guilty because it never occurred to me that everyone around me thinks I'm fishing dirty. I'm hoping that finding some good boots will fix this. Until then, if you see a really tall, bearded man doing a slight shuffle, he might just be extremely uncomfortable.


Seriously,:roll: Who has time to scrutinize other anglers like that? When I'm on the river, all my concentration is occupied reading the river and with my technique. I suppose that I'm not a purist however.

Since I (grudgingly) switched from felt boots to rubber soles, it seems like I slip and slide around like a klutz a lot more. I imagine I can expect to be accused of doing the "shuffle" myself sometime in the future.:?


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## twinkielk15

I hit my knees at least two or three times most trips in order to avoid falling on my face or back. Sounds like boots may not fix my issues after all....


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## Bax*

Because I'm not a big angler, I have no idea of what this accusation means. Will you explain to an ignorant guy like me?


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## Huge29

I was about to post teh same as Bax; is there supposedly an advantage to this or similar to the mud motor argument?


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## polarbear

It is where you stir up the bottom to dislodge insects, to get fish downstream to start feeding, then you fish the silt trail. It's kinda like the fly fishing equivalent to chumming I guess. Kinda stupid that people would even pay that close attention to other people to even notice something like that. In the fly fishing world it's considered bad form, kinda like picking up your golf ball out of the sand trap and throwing it on the green. Not sure I would have ever dreamed up something like that until I learned what it was. I'm not sure if there is any law against it. Maybe someone on here could speak to that.


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## longbow

What's the San Juan Shuffle?


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## Cooky

polarbear said:


> It is where you stir up the bottom to dislodge insects, to get fish downstream to start feeding, then you fish the silt trail. It's kinda like the fly fishing equivalent to chumming I guess.


Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

.


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## Catherder

longbow said:


> What's the San Juan Shuffle?


Polarbear explained it quite accurately. In our state at least, there is no law against it, although besides being bad form, it can potentially damage the underwater river habitat. I have no idea how it got the name. I suppose anglers fishing the San Juan have poor ethics or something?

Now, what is the mud motor argument?


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## twinkielk15

It originated on the San Juan River and it got so bad that it was causing damage to the riverbed and they officially banned it. It has been banned on several rivers now, including the Green River as I understand it. As has been said, it's not illegal on the Provo but it is considered "unethical" by most purists. I have a friend who uses the technique almost exclusively and he catches more and larger fish than I do every time out. Like anything else in hunting/fishing, some want to bag one and couldn't care less about how it's done and others are all about how the game is taken.


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## Bax*

This is a really interesting thread guys. Thanks for sharing!


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## Catherder

twinkielk15 said:


> It has been banned on several rivers now, including the Green River as I understand it.


There is no specific prohibition against the practice on the Green river in Utah either.


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## twinkielk15

Catherder said:


> There is no specific prohibition against the practice on the Green river in Utah either.


Thanks for setting me straight.


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## longbow

twinkielk15 said:


> It originated on the San Juan River and it got so bad that it was causing damage to the riverbed and they officially banned it. It has been banned on several rivers now, including the Green River as I understand it. As has been said, it's not illegal on the Provo but it is considered "unethical" by most purists. I have a friend who uses the technique almost exclusively and he catches more and larger fish than I do every time out. Like anything else in hunting/fishing, some want to bag one and couldn't care less about how it's done and others are all about how the game is taken.


Thanks for clearing that up. I've never heard of it. Kinda interesting. Does it really damage the riverbed that bad?


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## Catherder

I was curious about the regs regarding the subject and found this in the guidebook/regulations.

Chumming
 means dislodging or depositing 
in the water any substance not attached to a 
hook, line or trap, which may attract fish.


The *dislodging *clause of chumming would seem to apply to the San Juan shuffle. If so, then the action would be considered a violation in any fishery. It may be hard to prove unless vigorous, but a CO might be able to write you up if caught doing it blatantly.


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## wyogoob

I was gonna stay out of this one, but now that I've drank a pot of coffee I'm jumpin' in. 

I always looked at the San Juan Shuffle thing as being kinda odd. 30 to 35 years ago no one really cared. Outdoors writers wrote about the technique in the "big" outdoor magazines of the day; and now it's taboo. 

The first time I witnessed it was at Lees Ferry below the Glen Canyon Dam. There were so many fisherman wading the river back in those days I don't think it made any difference and the water coming thru the dam kinda did the "Shuffle" anyway. 

I'm a curious type of nature guy and have been known to turn over a bunch a rocks just to see what kinda bugs and minnow thingies take off. hee, hee, hee

The technique works wonders on whitefish.......uh.....so they say.


I don't get it. Fishing should not be complicated. Go barbless, use bait if ya want, catch a few fish. Have fun, eat the ones that get stressed out and return the rest.

Happy Father's Day.

.


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## Fowlmouth

There are elitist purists in all hunting and fishing sports these days. It takes the fun out of fun if you ask me. You have guys complaining about how other guys fish and the methods they use, you have guys complaining about the way some guys hunt. Everyone wants to be politically correct in their own ways. The bottom line is this, catching is catching and killing is killing. I don't care if you use a Zebco 202 or a Sage fly rod with some fancy reel, I don't care if you use a rifle or you throw a rock. To each their own!


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## Catherder

wyogoob said:


> I'm a curious type of nature guy and have been known to turn over a bunch a rocks just to see what kinda bugs and minnow thingies take off. hee, hee, hee
> 
> The technique works wonders on whitefish.......uh.....so they say.
> 
> I don't get it. Fishing should not be complicated. Go barbless, use bait if ya want, catch a few fish. Have fun, eat the ones that get stressed out and return the rest.
> 
> Happy Father's Day.
> 
> .


First, Happy fathers day right back at ya!

The rock turning comment reminds me of fishing with dad in my youth. It was back in the time when folks regularly fished the major rivers with (gasp!) bait. Dad liked to fish a certain stretch of the upper Provo with caddis fly larvae. (rock rollers) The upper however, had a paucity of them. However, the middle Weber had/has a huge caddis hatch of the large size we favored. We would stop by the Weeb on Friday evening before spending the weekend on the Provo. The encased larvae were on the underside of rocks and we'd spend 30-40 minutes collecting them. Dad and I would fill a soda can full of caddis larvae for use over the weekend. Then we'd fish. For some reason-Ov-, we'd absolutely pound the Weber fish. Browns, whites, suckers, and bows in exceptional sizes. I wonder if our bait collection had anything to do with that? Those were the days.


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## Cooky

Catherder said:


> First, Happy fathers day right back at ya!
> 
> The rock turning comment reminds me of fishing with dad in my youth. It was back in the time when folks regularly fished the major rivers with (gasp!) bait. Dad liked to fish a certain stretch of the upper Provo with caddis fly larvae. (rock rollers) The upper however, had a paucity of them. However, the middle Weber had/has a huge caddis hatch of the large size we favored. We would stop by the Weeb on Friday evening before spending the weekend on the Provo. The encased larvae were on the underside of rocks and we'd spend 30-40 minutes collecting them. Dad and I would fill a soda can full of caddis larvae for use over the weekend. Then we'd fish. For some reason-Ov-, we'd absolutely pound the Weber fish. Browns, whites, suckers, and bows in exceptional sizes. I wonder if our bait collection had anything to do with that? Those were the days.


My dad gathered hellgrammites with similar results. We kicked up the bottom for the reasons mentioned...doing so didn't have a name then.


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## High Desert Elk

The San Juan Shuffle as it is called did originate in the Quality Waters of the San Juan River below the dam of Navajo Reservior. People began doing it because the river was fished so heavy, it being a very blue ribbon stream, that fish became (and are) very selective of what floated in front of them. When fishing it, you can't help but notice the dozen or so 16 to 20 inch rainbows right at your feet, so, it didn't take a genius to figure out that foot movement generated a strike. It did take a genius purist that watched the film 'A River Runs Through It' to brand the act as taboo (even before watching the film they had never even picked up a fly rod much less mastered the art of 'Shadow Casting').

Anyway, NMDGF views it as chumming, which is illegal in NM. That's why it is banned in the The Land of Enchantment, not because it is damaging to a river bed. If that were the case, just the act of wading while fishing would do that and fishing while standing in a river would be outlawed.


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## massmanute

Is the San Juan Shuffle sort of the fishing analogy to the Texas Heart Shot in hunting?


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## LostLouisianian

If it's legal and I'm doing it and it bugs you, feel free to find another place to fish.:mrgreen:


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## koltraynor

Who accused you of doing it? Another angler?


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## twinkielk15

koltraynor said:


> Who accused you of doing it? Another angler?


Yes. There were two other anglers who proceeded to call me every name in the book and even threatened to "turn me in". They were clear up on the trail above the river walking back and I could reasonably pretend not to hear them, so I did. They eventually moved on up the river and I moved down.


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## koltraynor

twinkielk15 said:


> Yes. There were two other anglers who proceeded to call me every name in the book and even threatened to "turn me in". They were clear up on the trail above the river walking back and I could reasonably pretend not to hear them, so I did. They eventually moved on up the river and I moved down.


I wouldn't worry about it. I've seen guides to it. elitist jerks. I'd like to see the DWR officers face when the called that in.


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## Springville Shooter

They really hate me on the LP. I stomp up and down the River casting a big, six hooked floating Rapala. Sometimes I let if float 50 yards downstream right past the Orvis crew. Then I yell "fish on!" When I hook a fish. Once in a while I bash one in the head and take it home to eat. If they don't like it, I have several places that they can kiss and I've presented the offer before. Some people can take the fun out of anything.....even fishing. I wonder what stupid ideas they use to ruin sex?--------SS


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## koltraynor

I fish the LP once a summer but plan on doing more as I just moved back. Some people think everyone needs to fish like they do. Plus the river could use more people taking fish home. Seriously I wouldn't give two craps about those idiots said or think.


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## Vanilla

More people need to do the SJ Shuffle on some redds in November on the LP. 

And yes, I'm being serious....


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## polarbear

Springville Shooter said:


> They really hate me on the LP. I stomp up and down the River casting a big, six hooked floating Rapala. Sometimes I let if float 50 yards downstream right past the Orvis crew. Then I yell "fish on!" When I hook a fish. Once in a while I bash one in the head and take it home to eat. If they don't like it, I have several places that they can kiss and I've presented the offer before. Some people can take the fun out of anything.....even fishing. I wonder what stupid ideas they use to ruin sex?--------SS


Well said SS. First off, I love to fly fish. I enjoy the science of it, and I'm good at it. I used to fly fish 3-4 times a week. But I decided long ago that I was never going to look like a fly fisherman. I don't own a $500 rod or $200 sunglasses or a vented turquoise shirt. I've met so many "purist" jerks that I refuse to associate myself with them. Even within the sport, the elitists find a way to shun some of their own and look down their nose at them. This elitist mentality is not good for fly fishing or fishing in general. It just further divides people. I was watching Tred Barta years ago, and he summed up the way I feel about fly fishing perfectly. I actually found the clip:


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## Vanilla

I am a fly fisherman. I fish with spinners, fly and bubble, and even PowerBait when necessary. But deep down at the core, I'm a fly fisherman. Not a prissy up-tight fly fisherman. But a flu fisherman, nonetheless. 

I always laugh about those that day 'a rod is just a rod' or 'waders are just waders.' It is generally my first cue that someone doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. Yes, you can catch fish with a 1983 Zebco fly rod wearing canvass hip boots, just like you can wrapping fishing line around a coke can on a bait hook. But don't tell me my traditional Temple Fork is even in the same class of performance as my Loomis GL3 I bought almost 20 years ago. And don't tell me again that the GL3 isin the same class of performance as the Z-Axis I bought on clearance a few years ago. 

And Hogdeman breathables from Sportys for $100 aren't even close for comfort or durability of the Simms guides or pros. It isn't even close. I see just as many people 'looking down' on what they term as elitist as I see elitists looking down on us normal folk. 

Just like is rather go into a snowstorm elk hunting with solid gore tex boots and gear than in tennis shoes and Levi's. I'd rather buy the best fishing gear I can afford. It makes a difference.


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## Springville Shooter

No one is questioning good equipment, just bad attitudes. Good rods, waders, and glasses are important. I'd like to know how the pink vented Orvis shirts help catch more fish though. I pronounce it "Orifice" and simply refer to a certain crew on the LP as the Pink Orifices.-------SS


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## Vanilla

No, I think if you read some responses here you will clearly see that the attitude is equated with the equipment...which simply isn't true. 

I don't have a pink vented Orvis shirt. But I have green, blue, and white patterned vented shirts. (not Orvis brand) Wear one. You'll know why they wear them. Gore tex boots don't help you shoot a bigger deer. But they can sure make your time looking for one nicer.


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## polarbear

Never met to insult the gear. I'll be the first to tell you that good gear is important. I simply don't want to look like people that treat me like an idiot. Have I met good dudes that wear the "uniform"? Yes. But the bad apples ruin it for me. That's all.


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## WasatchOutdoors

*I don't get it.*

For the life of me I don't get it. If a guy rolls a couple rocks to catch the larvae in a screen a few feet below, specifically to see what's there and match the insects, he's a purist and somehow super cool. If a guy rolls a few rocks to avoid going face down in a river he's chumming and a slob. If a guy rolls a few rocks to get the fish feeding and then catches one of the downstream fish on an artificial fly, he's borderline criminal... But it's ok for me to fish with a nightcrawler on the majority of the streams in the state. I'm allowed to chum stripers in lake powell. And in pineview I can turn around and cut up the perch I just caught and use him for bait. Some of the attitude differences between certain cliques in fishing baffle me.

I used to flyfish the Provo quite a bit. I don't anymore. Between the competition for holes to fish, the elitist attitudes, and the politics that seem to encompass that river (whether it be who's spot it is, all the locked up stretches of private land etc) I just don't see the appeal. I absolutely love to flyfish, but it's for the serenity of being out there, by myself, to get away from everyone else. I don't remember the last time I was on the provo without company, competition and scrutiny.


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## 30-06-hunter

WasatchOutdoors said:


> For the life of me I don't get it. If a guy rolls a couple rocks to catch the larvae in a screen a few feet below, specifically to see what's there and match the insects, he's a purist and somehow super cool. If a guy rolls a few rocks to avoid going face down in a river he's chumming and a slob. If a guy rolls a few rocks to get the fish feeding and then catches one of the downstream fish on an artificial fly, he's borderline criminal... But it's ok for me to fish with a nightcrawler on the majority of the streams in the state. I'm allowed to chum stripers in lake powell. And in pineview I can turn around and cut up the perch I just caught and use him for bait. Some of the attitude differences between certain cliques in fishing baffle me.
> 
> I used to flyfish the Provo quite a bit. I don't anymore. Between the competition for holes to fish, the elitist attitudes, and the politics that seem to encompass that river (whether it be who's spot it is, all the locked up stretches of private land etc) I just don't see the appeal. I absolutely love to flyfish, but it's for the serenity of being out there, by myself, to get away from everyone else. I don't remember the last time I was on the provo without company, competition and scrutiny.


I couldn't agree more, although I'm still getting the hang of going artificial I have caught more and bigger fish than I ever did using worms, but on occasion I will bait a hook for my wife while she sits and reads a book. And maybe it's because I haven't done it or am new to fishing in Utah, or that I typically avoid the majority of the most over-fished stretches in the state and actually hike into a place to get some exercise, but I haven't ever heard of the San Juan Shuffle like so many others on here.

Not that I really know any of them because I don't fish those areas, but the purists can kiss my arse, most of them wouldn't even make the hike into where some of us go.


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## koltraynor

I fish the Provo a lot. I don't let the jerks bother me. I don't care who sees me do the truffle shuffle. Not any different than rolling a rock for your seine.


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