# November ML Deer Hunt



## taxidermist

I remember when the Muzzy Deer hunt was in November, and it was Cold, and Snowy. 

I think it would be great if the DWR offered a L.E. hunt state wide, in November ( General season units) and limit this hunt to 1000 permits. 

But, it would be a true "primitive" weapon. 
1- Side lock Rifle. (Cap or Flint) Inline not allowed.
2- open sights. 
3- No sabots. (Full Bore projectile)

What do the rest of you think, Good or bad idea?


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## Tall Tines

Don't the deer get shot at enough as it is? There is already a LE muzzy hunt in November. And you can make it as primitive or advanced as you desire.


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## DallanC

taxidermist said:


> I remember when the Muzzy Deer hunt was in November, and it was Cold, and Snowy.


Sometimes. First deer I ever killed with a ML was during the Nov hunt and I was in a T-shirt and sweating my butt off.



> I think it would be great if the DWR offered a L.E. hunt state wide, in November ( General season units) and limit this hunt to 1000 permits.
> 
> But, it would be a true "primitive" weapon.
> 1- Side lock Rifle. (Cap or Flint) Inline not allowed.
> 2- open sights.
> 3- No sabots. (Full Bore projectile)
> 
> What do the rest of you think, Good or bad idea?


You want a hunt based on the cosmetics of a gun vs the capability of the gun?

Inline muzzleloaders predate Hawkin style by 100 years. 1734 Germany had inline muzzleloaders (think about it, its a easier casting to make). Do some research on the Ferguson black powder rifles, they hit the scene in 1777. BREECH LOAD!

All of the inline vs sidelock argument went right out the window when Thompson Center stuck it to the traditional guys by making the Black Mountain Magnum. It came in both sidelock cap and flintlock variations. Composite Stock, 150gr max charge, special flame channel to ignite pellets, fiber optic sights, drilled for scope mounts. The sidelock version had some special magnesium based flints that were nearly as reliable as caps.

So yea... put me down in the "bad idea" camp if you try to impose seemingly "primitive" cosmetics.

Both modern sidelock replicas and inlines are so advanced over the flatspring guns of yore, its not even funny. White built all their muzzleloader barrels on the same **** machine, inline and sidelock. Zero difference in the gun styles other than a few milli-seconds different lock time.

-DallanC


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## MuscleWhitefish

taxidermist said:


> I remember when the Muzzy Deer hunt was in November, and it was Cold, and Snowy.
> 
> I think it would be great if the DWR offered a L.E. hunt state wide, in November ( General season units) and limit this hunt to 1000 permits.
> 
> But, it would be a true "primitive" weapon.
> 1- Side lock Rifle. (Cap or Flint) Inline not allowed.
> 2- open sights.
> 3- No sabots. (Full Bore projectile)
> 
> What do the rest of you think, Good or bad idea?


I like it, then I think about how many people (myself included) that suck at shooting ducks with open sites.

I don't like the long range game for the same reason, too many potentially wounded animals.


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## DallanC

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I like it, then I think about how many people (myself included) that suck at shooting ducks with open sites.
> 
> I don't like the long range game for the same reason, too many potentially wounded animals.


Cuz no-one ever takes long shots they shouldnt? How old is the Vernier Tang site now?










-DallanC


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## BPturkeys

To say that the improvements made in modern muzzle loading weapons, i.e. inline ignition, saboted bullets, optical sights, " Composite Stock, 150gr max charge, special flame channel to ignite pellets, fiber optic sights, drilled for scope mounts, sidelock version with special magnesium based flints that were nearly as reliable as caps" are only "cosmetic" and shouldn't be used to disqualify them as a primitive type weapons is almost silly. Practically any one of these improvements should be plenty to throw them out of the "primative" weapon group. 
Throwing in the Ferguson musket with it's clever "breech loading" design really has nothing to do with this discussion...although really interesting.
I might entertain the idea of going back to the original idea of a "primative weapons hunt" but adding another LE hunt...nope.


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## Critter

Lets do a real primitive hunt with rocks and spears.


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## DallanC

BPturkeys said:


> To say that the improvements made in modern muzzle loading weapons, i.e. inline ignition, saboted bullets, optical sights, " Composite Stock, 150gr max charge, special flame channel to ignite pellets, fiber optic sights, drilled for scope mounts, sidelock version with special magnesium based flints that were nearly as reliable as caps" are only "cosmetic" and shouldn't be used to disqualify them as a primitive type weapons is almost silly. Practically any one of these improvements should be plenty to throw them out of the "primative" weapon group.


No the OP mentioned restricting Inlines vs Sidelocks. I'm pointing out sidelocks are just as advanced as inlines, therefore the restriction is unfounded based purely on the direction the hammer travels.



> Throwing in the Ferguson musket with it's clever "breech loading" design really has nothing to do with this discussion...although really interesting.


I only brought it up because there is the theory that a sidelock is somehow "primative" yet a rifle design 60 years older than the sidelock shouldn't be allowed because its too advanced?

See the problem with the logic of picking and choosing what weapons to include or exclude? I always jump into sidelock vs inline arguments because I firmly believe its invalid and ignores the same benefits sidelocks enjoy that are in common with inlines.

I'd be way more open to this proposed hunt if it were limited to muzzleloaders only. Blackpowder or pyrodex only. Open sights only. Full bore projectiles only. Exposed ignition only. Caps or flintlock only.

If it loads from the muzzle, and fits the above, the design of the hammer shouldn't matter in the slightest.

-DallanC


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## BPturkeys

I think of the many improvements to rifles(muzzy) over the years, the enclosed hammer and optical sights are the two biggies. In the overall performance of the weapons, the saboted bullet is far and away the biggest single factor separating "modern" from "primative" in my mind. My old .54 Tryon patch and ball shoots straight and true but is no match for my Knight MK-85, .54 cal loaded up with a modern saboted bullet.


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## johnnycake




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## DallanC

BPturkeys said:


> In the overall performance of the weapons, the saboted bullet is far and away the biggest single factor separating "modern" from "primitive" in my mind.


True, but I believe the single biggest improvement in firearms was the advent of high tensile strength coil springs. Prior to that, guns used flat springs which were the cause of many ignition issues. They would weaken, crack, fall out of alignment etc etc. Coil springs eliminated a huge amount of ignition issues making muzzleloaders pretty reliable with proper preparation.

-DallanC


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## OriginalOscar

I love the idea of bringing back November ML hunt and making it primitive.


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## taxidermist

OriginalOscar said:


> I love the idea of bringing back November ML hunt and making it primitive.


Thank you! I wasn't looking for a "History lesson" on the development of the Muzzleloader. Just a simple question.

Years ago, in Montana I drew a late season hunt for Whitetail and you could only use a side lock ML, and full bore projectile. Great time for sure and walked away with a 150 class buck.


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## MuscleWhitefish

taxidermist said:


> Thank you! I wasn't looking for a "History lesson" on the development of the Muzzleloader. Just a simple question.
> 
> Years ago, in Montana I drew a late season hunt for Whitetail and you could only use a side lock ML, and full bore projectile. Great time for sure and walked away with a 150 class buck.


Now, that hunt is a general season rifle tag in most of the state.


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## Vanilla

I guess I won't say why I wouldn't want this hunt, because you don't care about why one is for it or against it. 

My vote is no.


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## PBH

don't we already have some late LE Muzzy hunts?

How 'bout we also disallow the use of game cameras, range finders, radios, ATVs.....


Where do you draw the line on what is "primitive" and what is not? Sounds to me like you want your own special hunt. Don't we all? I want to have an archery hunt with no grouse, bear, or other hunts happening. Adjustable sites not allowed. Carbon arrows not allowed. mechanical releases not allowed. synthetic strings not allowed. obsidian tips only.


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## DallanC

PBH said:


> don't we already have some late LE Muzzy hunts?
> 
> How 'bout we also disallow the use of game cameras, range finders, radios, ATVs.....
> 
> Where do you draw the line on what is "primitive" and what is not? Sounds to me like you want your own special hunt. Don't we all? I want to have an archery hunt with no grouse, bear, or other hunts happening. Adjustable sites not allowed. Carbon arrows not allowed. mechanical releases not allowed. synthetic strings not allowed. obsidian tips only.


Bingo.

-DallanC


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## taxidermist

Dang! I didn't think all the "Nuts" would fall out of the tree for this thread. -O,- I'll just go back to my little world of wishing for "MY SPECIAL HUNT" where I'm the only hunter on the hill, and the Deer and the Antelope play. Oh ya, and there all HUGE trophies too. LOL


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## reece_mess16

taxidermist said:


> I remember when the Muzzy Deer hunt was in November, and it was Cold, and Snowy.
> 
> I think it would be great if the DWR offered a L.E. hunt state wide, in November ( General season units) and limit this hunt to 1000 permits.
> 
> But, it would be a true "primitive" weapon.
> 1- Side lock Rifle. (Cap or Flint) Inline not allowed.
> 2- open sights.
> 3- No sabots. (Full Bore projectile)
> 
> What do the rest of you think, Good or bad idea?


What an absolutely cool idea! I think it needs to cost double so the state can raise some funds with the proceeds.

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## OriginalOscar

taxidermist said:


> Thank you! I wasn't looking for a "History lesson" on the development of the Muzzleloader. Just a simple question.
> 
> Years ago, in Montana I drew a late season hunt for Whitetail and you could only use a side lock ML, and full bore projectile. Great time for sure and walked away with a 150 class buck.


Is 150 big?


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## swbuckmaster

My answer is No

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## swbuckmaster

...

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## OriginalOscar

swbuckmaster said:


> My answer is No
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


He seemed pretty proud of that 150 number.

Has a state ever reversed ML regulations to restore those proposed? Really loved the November hunt with my Hawken for years.


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## DallanC

OriginalOscar said:


> Has a state ever reversed ML regulations to restore those proposed? Really loved the November hunt with my Hawken for years.


Yup, Sabots were banned for a couple years then the decision was reversed.

I enjoyed the Nov hunt with my Hawkin as well, but as previously stated I've modified it to the point it is every bit as accurate and reliable as my inlines. So whats the point of restricting one type vs the other?

-DallanC


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## Packout

Some of you guys are really going to call out something someone is proud of? Really? I'm not much into the inches game, but a 150 whitetail would be comparable to a 175 mule deer. In other words, you're dragging down something most hunters "might" shoot once in their life of hunting. Posts like those remind me of why I don't post photos or many stories on the net..... 

As for the original question-- I guess I don't see a need for it. My wager is every unit will have a LE ML hunt on it by 2019 (which I called in 2014 when they made LE ML hunts on a handful of units). And while there might not be a difference in some "side-lock" or "Inline" MLs, there is a huge difference between many current inline ignition systems vs most sidelocks. But that is a continuous debate had before on these forums.
..


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## Springville Shooter

150" is a very nice deer regardless of species as far as I'm concerned. As for the new season, I'm not for it. IF we were to do anything of the sort, I'd support a primitive archery season that was good for all three regular seasons. In my opinion we hunt our deer long enough in this state, especially for the amount of pressure that they get during every season. A handful of LE tags doesn't make much impact and helps with point creep so I can live with those. My $.02 anyway.------SS


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## taxidermist

swbuckmaster said:


> My answer is No
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Some can say "No". Guess they kill 180" whitetail and 200" Mule deer every season on public lands. (Now that's a hunter living in a pipe dream world IMO) For the Missoula Valley area, Yes, a 150 class is a great deer.


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## swbuckmaster

Taxidermist 

Dont lump me in with putting down a 150" buck! I could care less what someone shoots. I also never made a comment on anyone's buck! I only said NO to the late hunt! 

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## OriginalOscar

taxidermist said:


> Some can say "No". Guess they kill 180" whitetail and 200" Mule deer every season on public lands. (Now that's a hunter living in a pipe dream world IMO) For the Missoula Valley area, Yes, a 150 class is a great deer.


Congratulations! The question had nothing to do with MT or the size of deer. Do you actually have a comment on the question?


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## CPAjeff

It would be fun to hunt mule deer in November with a Hawken and a patch and ball - there just seems to be something nostalgic about it!

I guess my question, about the validity behind the reasoning/need of another hunt during the rut of any species, is why? I would love to see all the hunts moved out of the ruts and animals allowed to "do their deal" without a huge amount of pressure on them during that time.


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## Vanilla

CPAjeff said:


> I guess my question, about the validity behind the reasoning/need of another hunt during the rut of any species, is why? I would love to see all the hunts moved out of the ruts and animals allowed to "do their deal" without a huge amount of pressure on them during that time.


Tree hugger!


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## DallanC

Hey who deleted my last post?










-DallanC


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## taxidermist

swbuckmaster said:


> Taxidermist
> 
> Dont lump me in with putting down a 150" buck! I could care less what someone shoots. I also never made a comment on anyone's buck! I only said NO to the late hunt!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


My apologies! I was under the impression you were said "No" to the 150. Thanks for clearing that up, and your answer to the November hunt.


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## fobit

If it were a true Primitive Weapons hunt. I would be interested. Anything that would get me away from the road hunters driving around all day with their in-lines and wheel bows.


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## ridgetop

Why is it that we never hear a big push with the archery guys wanting to go back to recurves and have more primitive hunts.

Secondly, why would anyone want to go back to wounding more animals with a less effective weapon.
I'd rather hunt with something I felt more comfortable making a clean kill with.


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## moabxjeeper

ridgetop said:


> Why is it that we never hear a big push with the archery guys wanting to go back to recurves and have more primitive hunts.


I've had this argument with archery guys before. They think because they're hunting with a bow, they ARE doing a primitive hunt. Compound bows are no more primitive to their sport than modern in-lines are to ours.


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## Critter

I think that the point where people start seeing the problems with the modern muzzle loader is when you start putting scopes on them, shooting sabots and using pellets instead of loose powder. Not with the rifle in general.


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## DallanC

Archery guys practicing with BowTech's ... at 240 yards.






-DallanC


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## swbuckmaster

Dallan

The 240 yard shot cannot be done on mule deer or elk. It's a trick shot where you go out and set a target up. They shoot at the target using the top of the trees as an aiming point. You then move the target back until the arrow hits it. "This step is not shown in the video" It takes multiple arrows to walk the target into range. It's stupid!

You can also do it by adding a second peep sight and changing your anchor point. It's really no more accurate then going out shooting arrows in the air. 

Besides the question is about a rut muzzy hunt not archery rut hunt. 

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## swbuckmaster

If your going to use the BS 240 yard shot you may as well just throw in you can shoot over a mile with a rifle. The new reccord kill on taliban is what two plus miles. 

Muzzleloader is capable to at least 600 yards. 

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## swbuckmaster

I don't care what weapon you use anymore the integrity of the hunt is getting lost in the kill, long glory shots and easy no competition LE hunts. 

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## DallanC

swbuckmaster said:


> Dallan
> 
> The 240 yard shot cannot be done on mule deer or elk. It's a trick shot where you go out and set a target up. They shoot at the target using the top of the trees as an aiming point. You then move the target back until the arrow hits it. "This step is not shown in the video" It takes multiple arrows to walk the target into range. It's stupid!


Cannot? Youtube heros are trying to be the first all the time. Its amazing how many videos are on the internet of +100 yard killshots

I'm not saying they are hunting in the above clip, but it does show the capability of what some call "primative" weapons. Archery is typically done from a fixed place (stand, blind whatever) to a known spot (waterhole, food source etc) so its more possible than some other types of hunting.



> Besides the question is about a rut muzzy hunt not archery rut hunt.


It was, then the topic turned slightly to the topic of archery and what is primitive.

/shrug

Nothing is really primitive anymore.

-DallanC


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## swbuckmaster

Dallon you could do the same archery shot at 240 yards with a recurve. Just go to a golf shoot and you'll see loads of hacks shooting straight up in the air hoping to hit a puck at that distance and at that distance they are just as accurate as a compound bow.

I also never said archery kills over a 100 yards aren't impossible. Highly unlikely but not impossible because if an enough hacks take the shot someone will be an Internet hero and post the clip. You never see the misses or lost game. Extended ranges are also a fact of every weapon out and there are hacks willing to show how good they are by posting the footage. 

It's funny when you see the total archery challenge facebook posts where there shooting at big foam targets at extended ranges. Example moose targets ect and you know they shoot more then one arrow but they only point out the shot they made after several attempts. I was suprised when a few people actually posted a photo of all the broken arrows that were all over the place. 

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## JC HUNTER

DallanC said:


> Cuz no-one ever takes long shots they shouldnt? How old is the Vernier Tang site now?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -DallanC


Quigley called. He wants his sight back.


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## JC HUNTER

I'm being hypocritical because I hunt whitetail every November on my grandparent's farm in Ohio, and I LOVE IT!! But I don't like the idea of chasing mule deer during the rut here. It just seems like TO ME that the deer populations here in Utah get more abused by the elements and decreasing wintering grounds than they do in surrounding states. obviously the winters are worse in Wyoming and Montana but they also have compensating factors that Utah doesn't. Again, TO ME it seems like that is an added stress we're putting on the deer before they prepare for winter. 

Although, I could be completely wrong. I'm not a biologist and I don't pretend to be. From what I understand the front gets hammered by archery hunters in November and it doesn't seem like it effects that deer population very much. I know there were a lot of really nice bucks taken off there last year during the rut. so who really knows??.....DEFINETLY NOT ME!


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## swbuckmaster

JC HUNTER said:


> Although, I could be completely wrong. I'm not a biologist and I don't pretend to be. From what I understand the front gets hammered by archery hunters in November and it doesn't seem like it effects that deer population very much. I know there were a lot of really nice bucks taken off there last year during the rut. so who really knows??.....DEFINETLY NOT ME!


The front is a different animal then regular general deer areas. It doesn't have rifle or muzzy tags in the areas the big bucks are coming from. The areas further north that have the bigger bucks coming later are coming off of privite land that isn't hunted or is hunted with very small tag numbers. Despite what people would like you to believe compound bows are not a very effective weapon. You allow rifles or muzzle loaders in the same area for the same length hunting season and you would have 100 percent success rates. You would then have to cut/slash tags "Henry mountains" to maintain the same quality

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## Airborne

Food for thought regarding modern Muzzle loaders:

Keep in mind this system as it stands is legal in Utah from what I have been told. Maybe I'm wrong? I don't muzzleload hunt.

So this past weekend I had the pleasure to shoot a 'state of the art' muzzle loader at long range. A friend of mine bought a tricked out Remington Ultimate Muzzle loader which is a Rem 700 short action that uses a cut down brass case primed with a large rifle magnum primer as the ignition system. There is a nipple in the chamber that seals over the brass cased primer pocket directing the primer charge into the powder.


The rifle had a nice composite stock, barrel was free floated and the action was bedded along with a large muzzle break. Barrel was very long, I think near 30" or longer?

He used 200 weighed grains of Blackhorn 209 pushing a specialty sabot holding a 325 grain Parker bullet with a great ballistic coefficient--the bullet is very impressive looking. 

That gun pushed that bullet to something like 2200 to 2300 fps.

He had a really nice 30mm 4.5-14x50 Leupold VariX3 with a bubble level and target turrets for both windage and elevation. He had his clicks mapped out to 1000 yards.

The gun was a beast and probably weighed 11 or 12 pounds. 

We shot a steel gong target from 300 out to 600 yards and that muzzle loader was dead nuts accurate out to 600 yards easy. It never veered from the bullseye for more than 3". I was incredibly impressed with the accuracy and power that rifle holds--it was amazing! Keep in mind my buddy is a long range nut and spent a bunch of time and money on this rifle and to figure out the best load for it.

He said he could send it to a gunsmith and have it converted to shoot smokeless powder and you could get over 3000 fps with it using that same bullet. 

Even with the break it kicked like a mule and we ended up breaking a part on his metal rifle rest (led sled?) 

Anyways my take away was that this muzzle loader was as good as if not better than my old Rem 700 30-06. Just takes longer to load! Give that some thought regarding primitive vs modern muzzle loaders


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## swbuckmaster

A friend of mine killed a buck on a general muzzle loader hunt that went 215" with the exact same gun last year. Another friend killed a top ten muzzle loader typical with a similar rifle not the remington. Both will tell you the change in the scope law was a big game changer for muzzle loader accuracy. 

There really isn't a difference between a rifle and modern muzzle loader except shot time between loads. However muzzy tags come from the rifle pool so maybe it doesn't matter. They will just cut tags if the buck doe ratios go down. 

It's an endless circle of wait times to get tags, then wanting to give yourself every advantage of being successful when you get the tag. 

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## DallanC

I wish they had capped the power of the scopes. I was hoping for 2x due to my aging eyes... maybe 4x. I was semi shocked when they approved anything.

... BUT

People need to realize in Utah, the DWR had always thought of muzzleloaders as rifles and treated them as such. There has never been a "primitive" muzzleloader season Utah.

The original ML season was a one week _extension_ to the rifle season. Thats right, you paid $10 for a permit and got to hunt with your smokepole using your RIFLE season tag. You shot a deer you tagged it with your rifle tag. You could not hunt ML without first having that rifle tag.

When the ML season became its own dedicated hunt, during the 5 hunting regions period, the DWR still treated ML tag's like rifle tags. In fact you could have at any time for a simple $6 fee, change your tag from ML to Rifle or Rifle to ML. All of those tags came out of the same "pool", the DWR considered it a win as it distributed people out over more months vs having everyone in the field at the same time.

Today due to population growth and tag demand (from option 2 micro units), each tag type has its own pool. Archery, ML and Rifle. They are all distinct now. I highly doubt the DWR ever plans to really restrict any weapon types. They have drawn a line on scopes on bows, hunting at night etc but thats pretty much it. Anything goes, a dead animal is a dead animal, they only care about X kills and Y replenishment (herd growth vs decline).

I loved Nov hunting. Occasionally I even killed something. Since they moved up the season to Sept I've a got 100% success date. I think the animals are hunted too much as is, lets let'em breed and leave them alone for viewing and photography during the rut.

-DallanC


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## Critter

The first muzzle loader season that I remember was back in 1976. It ran from August 21-September 6

I actually thought that it was later in September.

Here is a link to it.

It is also interesting that when the first opened it up to ML hunting that there were very few units that you could ML hunt in.


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## CROC

I'm IN.


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## J_marx22

Just buy a bow and hunt extended archery lol


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## shaner

Forget the late deer season, I miss the old September muzzy elk season!


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