# Wasatch Late Elk -- Was it a slaughter?



## BradN

There seemed to be a lot of concern that the Wasatch Late Elk hunt was going to adversely affect the quality of the Wasatch for years to come? What was the harvest rate? Anybody eat tag soup on this hunt?

Have your opinions changed? Do you feel even more strongly now?


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## martymcfly73

I don't think it wiped out the herd like some people thought/ or hoped it would. I've been out and have heard lits of reports that people saw tons of bulls fewer cows. The areas I frequent are strong as ever with a good balance if bulls and cows. Can't speak for the northeastern part but that section is typically hit hard but has the most elk.


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## hazmat

from what i seen in the currant creek area. yes there were alot of bulls that hit the ground on the late hunt. but even more cows during the rifle deer.


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## oilcan

I saw between 15-20 Bulls a day for 6 days of hunting and never saw a single Cow.


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## goofy elk

Well, I can speak for the south part of the Wasatch .... and Avintaquin ...

The nice 'healthy' cow elk herds that were there, NOW are basicaly GONE !!:|!!

Guy's like Mcfly that dont realize whats happening on the Wasatch amaze me...


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## goofy elk

oilcan said:


> I saw between 15-20 Bulls a day for 6 days of hunting and never saw a single Cow.


Did you pull the trigger on one?


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## martymcfly73

goofy elk said:


> Well, I can speak for the south part of the Wasatch .... and Avintaquin ...
> mazed 1
> 
> The nice 'hercan ssy iealthy' cow elk herds that were there, NOW are basical y GONE !!:|!!
> You am
> Guy's like Mcfly that dont realize whats happening on the Wasatch and 1amaze me...


Guys like you and 1 eye amaze me. You are so negative and gas been pointed out numerous times by others. You want the herd to decline so you can say I told you so. Chicken lite goofy wants us all to believe its a slaughter and the herd will never recover.


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## goofy elk

Mcfly, NEVER ONCE have I said " Herds wont recover " !!!!!

Mcfly, NOT TRYING to be "Negative" !!! Just pointing out whats going down!!!!

And Mcfly, Why should we hammer a herd SOOOOO bad it has to "recover" ?????


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## JuddCT

I gotta agree with Marty on this one. I have seen some dandy bulls on the southern portion of the Wasatch this fall and early winter and I see plenty of cows. That being said my observations are only that and in no way can speak to the overall herd population. I would have to be an idiot to think otherwise.


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## goofy elk

JuddCT said:


> I have seen some dandy bulls on the southern portion of the Wasatch this fall and early winter and I see plenty of cows. .


Judd, gathering info for herd counts over the next 45 days on the Wasatch.

If you wouldn't mind, PM me the general location of thw cows ...
I'll make sure they are inculded if they are in the Diamond fork unit.


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## JuddCT

goofy elk said:


> Judd, gathering info for herd counts over the next 45 days on the Wasatch.
> 
> If you wouldn't mind, PM me the general location of thw cows ...
> I'll make sure they are inculded if they are in the Diamond fork unit.


What are the boundaries of Diamond Fork unit? Also didn't the division fly the unit last year? I've been in touch with a CO (can't remember his name) as I found a dead head. I'll double check with him if it is actually in Diamond Fork and let you know.


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## wyoming2utah

It doesn't matter if the unit was flown or not...people like Goofy will always debate any kind of counts or classifications. The reality is that if more bull elk tags were given fewer cow tags would be recommended or issued. It is the corner the DWR gets backed into when dealing with a lot of our LE units.


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## Igottabigone

My father-in-law drew the late hunt. We hunted hard. It was a much different hunt than I had anticipated. I think this was primarily due to the weather. The elk were scattered from top to bottom and everywhere in between. I really don't think it was a slaughter that was anticipated by many. 

When my father-in-law drew the tag, I really thought it would a much easier hunt. He had a double knee replacement in May and has had RA for several years. He is 63 years old and we hunted much harder on this hunt than we did with my buddy on the early hunt. 

On both hunts we saw lots of elk. However, with the late hunt the issue was not seeing the elk, it was getting to them. On the late hunt, we saw far more bulls than cows, however, I think this was in part due to where we were hunting. The cows seemed to be much more bunched up and in some parts of the unit really low. 

I know of several great bulls that were killed on the late hunt, but I also know of several rag horns that were killed. In fact, I know one guy shot a 4-point bull. I am actually very interested in seeing the harvest data for this hunt. I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see that a couple dozen tags went unfilled. The first couple days of the hunt were awesome, but as the hunt went on the elk became even more scattered an inaccessible. 

We ended up killing a nice bull mid-week. He will score right around 310ish and is a really good looking bull. My father-in-law was pumped. I know for sure that some the biggest bulls that I saw prior to the hunt and during the hunt did not get killed.


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## TAK

wyoming2utah said:


> It doesn't matter if the unit was flown or not...people like Goofy will always debate any kind of counts or classifications. The reality is that if more bull elk tags were given fewer cow tags would be recommended or issued. It is the corner the DWR gets backed into when dealing with a lot of our LE units.


It's not just Goofy throwing up the red flags. I see the exact same thing he has mentioned on the Southern end of this unit. To many Cows have been taken off. PERIOD! THis is the unit I have hunted my entire life, so its not just one weekend I ran up there and didn't see elk or deer.


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## Mr Muleskinner

One thing that people need to remember is that many areas are currently over objective. Some of them substantially. A few years ago the elk population in some of these units were well above objective. I continually hear that a unit isn't what it was a few years back for elk. Well guess what? That is buy design. I also hear and see that deer are doing better in some of these units than in years past.


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## TAK

Mr Muleskinner said:


> One thing that people need to remember is that many areas are currently over objective. Some of them substantially. A few years ago the elk population in some of these units were well above objective. I continually hear that a unit isn't what it was a few years back for elk. Well guess what? That is buy design. I also hear and see that deer are doing better in some of these units than in years past.


I guess you could be right... That is if the objective is ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would sure hope that the number that they have deemed as this units objective is better than what I see is left there.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Everybody must have killed all of the elk we saw there this year. We haven't been there in about 6 weeks though.................


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## TAK

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Everybody must have killed all of the elk we saw there this year. We haven't been there in about 6 weeks though.................


 So roughly you have been up on the unit 3 times... Yup and expert!


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## Mr Muleskinner

Three times? How do you figure?


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## Mr Muleskinner

Never claimed to be an expert either


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## johnnycake

furthermore, someone claiming zero elk would need to go up a lot more to prove their point over someone who goes up infrequently and yet still sees plenty of elk.....kinda hard to believe all the doom and gloom when you go 1. infrequently 2. don't try too hard; and yet you still see plenty of elk. 

I readily admit that I have only been in parts of the wasatch unit for less than 1 day total this fall, and yet I have still seen plenty of elk (nice bulls too). For the record I'm talking about the areas around Timp, Diamond Fork, and Ray's Valley. But hey, clearly I was mistaken and didn't see +/- 100 elk in a few hours sporadically spaced, they must have been some other large bodied tan/brown ungulate bent on destroying the elk herd via corrupting population data.


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## bbford

I had a blast on this hunt like what was said before is I expected the hunt to be a little different. We scouted are butts off and hunted even harder. Givin I punched my tag on the second day. My observation on this unit is the cows are freaking hurting pretty bad. I've been down there every weekend since September and in all my time down there I seen probably a total of 12 cows


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## silentstalker

Not sure how all the hunters did but the 6 or so people I know with permits did really well. All bulls over 350. This was not an easy hunt but one where the bulls are bunched together and its easier to pick out the "big one". It was not a slaughter per se as all these tags where taken from permits that already existed. 

As for cow numbers, they will continue to decline as we manage for age classification of bulls and not overall health of the herds. In some areas there are still plenty of cows around. In a lot of those cases there is a significant private ground nearby where they can run to and find safety once the guns start blasting.

Until we start managing with a different mentality, we will continue to force the DWR to hold the herd at a predetermined level. If we are not going to let the hunters shoot bulls, they must shoot cows. Right wrong or indifferent, that is the case. 

Congrats to all the successful hunters!


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## martymcfly73

silentstalker said:


> Not sure how all the hunters did but the 6 or so people I know with permits did really well. All bulls over 350. This was not an easy hunt but one where the bulls are bunched together and its easier to pick out the "big one". It was not a slaughter per se as all these tags where taken from permits that already existed.
> 
> As for cow numbers, they will continue to decline as we manage for age classification of bulls and not overall health of the herds. In some areas there are still plenty of cows around. In a lot of those cases there is a significant private ground nearby where they can run to and find safety once the guns start blasting.
> 
> Until we start managing with a different mentality, we will continue to force the DWR to hold the herd at a predetermined level. If we are not going to let the hunters shoot bulls, they must shoot cows. Right wrong or indifferent, that is the case.
> 
> Congrats to all the successful hunters!


You're talking crazy. Saying it wasn't a slaughter. Rational speaking will get you nowhere.


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## Mr Muleskinner

but....but....a bull is not a good bull unless it scores 350 or better. The rest of them are nothing but raghorns.


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## Springville Shooter

It takes a village......to raise a spike into a bull worth taking. Unfortunately that village has some idiots......and they all have internet access.-----SS


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## martymcfly73

Springville Shooter said:


> It takes a village......to raise a spike into a bull worth taking. Unfortunately that village has some idiots......and they all have internet access.-----SS


Yes this^^^


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## martymcfly73

Mr Muleskinner said:


> but....but....a bull is not a good bull unless it scores 350 or better. The rest of them are nothing but raghorns.


And this^^^^


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## JuddCT

4+ coherent posts in a row... No Way. I thought this forum was going downhill.


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## TAK

Lets not forget WE are still killing cows all the way up to Feb! I really could care less about any bull on the unit. Bulls come and go, but I do have a concern with the lack of cows. AND WE ARE STILL KILLING THEM! Like I said before the northern part of the unit I could not say much on. But everything from 191 West is in my opinion over managed!!!! 

But lets be real here. All this chest thumping on this forum don't matter a hill of beans... OK I guess it does when the next numbers that come out say "Ahh I think we may have had a typo, or we have reached our goal of managment no more permits Has that ever happened?" I get to say Told you so!!!!


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## Vanilla

Springville Shooter said:


> It takes a village......to raise a spike into a bull worth taking. Unfortunately that village has some idiots......and they all have internet access.-----SS


I'm not sure if the Wasatch Late hunt was a slaughter or not, but this may be the best post I've seen on the interwebs in a long, long time. So true!!!


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## Airborne

I can't wait until my Wasatch late season cow tag starts, come Christmas time and BAM! it's my goal to kill the last cow on the Wasatch  (insert sarcasm). Going to be a hoot, plus my neighbor could use the meat.


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## berrysblaster

*what a joke....*

I'd be curious to know if guys like Mcfly and judd can post up specific numbers from years of counting....or are they like the typical moron that pulls up their cut rate bushnell and calls every herd they see 30+....hard numbers are hard to come by...

that being said, in the last 3 years we have seen a 50-75% decrease in nursery cow #'s in the strawberry valley. herds that historically were 150-200 strong are now 50-100 and that's a stretch.

If you want specifics, this year I came up with 67 head in the coop creek nursery compared to 98 the year before and 5 yrs back the herd was 213 as best we could count.....its difficult to keep track of the elk when there are that many.....

French hollow/broad hollow has declined from 130-150 5 years ago to 40 this year and that's probably double counting a few....

Willow creek all I could turn up this year was 55-65 head, one herd of 30 and a smattering of smaller 5-15 head spread throughout.....

Currant creek had 40-50 head hunting the late hunt these had come off of Little Red Creek saw 5 head on the public side....

Cascade had 50 head or so, didn't spend much time there but close friends did and that's all they could turn up on public and private....

YOU GENTS DO THE MATH ON THOSE AND SEE IF IT EVEN COMES CLOSE TO 7700.....


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## Mr Muleskinner

berrysblaster said:


> I'd be curious to know if guys like Mcfly and judd can post up specific numbers from years of counting....or are they like the typical moron that pulls up their cut rate bushnell and calls every herd they see 30+....hard numbers are hard to come by...
> 
> that being said, in the last 3 years we have seen a 50-75% decrease in nursery cow #'s in the strawberry valley. herds that historically were 150-200 strong are now 50-100 and that's a stretch.
> 
> If you want specifics, this year I came up with 67 head in the coop creek nursery compared to 98 the year before and 5 yrs back the herd was 213 as best we could count.....its difficult to keep track of the elk when there are that many.....
> 
> French hollow/broad hollow has declined from 130-150 5 years ago to 40 this year and that's probably double counting a few....
> 
> Willow creek all I could turn up this year was 55-65 head, one herd of 30 and a smattering of smaller 5-15 head spread throughout.....
> 
> Currant creek had 40-50 head hunting the late hunt these had come off of Little Red Creek saw 5 head on the public side....
> 
> Cascade had 50 head or so, didn't spend much time there but close friends did and that's all they could turn up on public and private....
> 
> YOU GENTS DO THE MATH ON THOSE AND SEE IF IT EVEN COMES CLOSE TO 7700.....


So..........just so I am clear you have better binoculars than most people that afford you the ability to count fewer animals?


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## goofy elk

Blaster, It's good to see you here!

The years of EXPERIANCE in much needed on this forum...

A number of members here are lacking....


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## RandomElk16

Look!! :V|: Berry and goofy both think the sky is falling and use a lot of ......'s in their posts.....................

Maybe you are long lost cousins.......


Good first post, you must be a brand new member...................


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## goofy elk

Blaster.

I can vouch for the Waters, 1st-6th, and Tie fork....
2008 just in 4th and 5th there was 35-40 bulls, 300+ cows.
NOW, that number has dropped around 85% .......
Same thing in Tie fork, Once AWESOME for BIG bulls...
Was a great place during the rutt and winter ground for elk.
1998 through about 2010....still a hand full..but 90% reduced.
Theres a late season Diamond fork cow hunt coming up,
Wouldn't be surprised to see a success number under 10%...
That pretty much will tell the story!


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## Truelife

Interesting to read some of the views on this thread. A couple of you are like two magnets turned the wrong way on every single thread you both hit. The downside of that is that your willingness to stand up for what you think is right is what our hunting community needs. I certainly hope that if there came a day that it was us against the anti hunters that you would both be on the same side of the line.

More on topice - It would be interesting to know the age of everyone posting on this thread. The reason I say that is because the hunting world changes so much over time. I will be 41 this week and I know that hunting is not even close to what it was in my teenage years. My father said the same thing when I was a teenager.

Point is that some may be young enough that they don't recognize what the long range result will be when we hear terms like "problem elk". 20 years from now those herds that are given that nickname will be GONE, and it's by design. A frog in a pot of slowly heating water basically.

I live in the foothills of Santaquin and we enjoy deer in and around our yard nearly every day of the year. I was talkikng with my 15 year old son the other day and he asked me how low the deer and elk came before the houses. I told him about how when I was a kid the elk would be clear down in the fields by the freeway all winter long. He was amazed.

What numbers will your kids be arguing over 20 years from now?

The sky is not falling, we are slowly building ourselves up on a tower of importance. 

Will there be a difference when we reach the sky than if it fell on our heads????


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## TAK

RandomElk16 said:


> Look!! :V|: Berry and goofy both think the sky is falling and use a lot of ......'s in their posts.....................
> 
> Maybe you are long lost cousins.......
> 
> Good first post, you must be a brand new member...................


Can you please include me with these two! I agree with them!


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## RandomElk16

TAK said:


> Can you please include me with these two! I agree with them!


I didn't agree or disagree with em. Just was bring some humor to it, hunters usually are funny. I stay outta the hers numbers game. I have no way of knowing how many animals are on thousands of acres on a given day so i simply read both sides of the fence.


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## pheaz

I must agree its hurtin. East side of Heber in the years past held around 1k cows. If I say there's 100 this year I'd be given credit for what's not there.


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## berrysblaster

pheaz that has to be the sad part of the deal, that is supposedly where 'all' the elk are. The dnr has been pleading that the elk are on private ground like the church property, 3c's, wolf creek ranch's and little pole. Here we are though seeing no elk coming off of even the private....

SO where are they? did they go subterranean?? and they only come up when the biologists are in the helicopter?? Or maybe the those flying have special x-ray goggles that let them see underground? 

The only other options don't bode well, 

#1 the hunters have gotten worse. However, with advances in technology and a now 6 month long hunting season from august to January one would have to assume that this is not the case. 

#2 The elk aren't there and we are being lied to...


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## goofy elk

I've got to wonder how many years of experiance on the WASATCH
there is between TAK, blaster, and phez ?? Bet its quite a few!
Cuz, their spot on.....

I know I've been hunting the Wasatch unit since 1977, when I turn 16.
35 years for me....

It would be intresting to know how many years on the Wasatch these other 
guys have?????


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## Mr Muleskinner

I am kind of curious as to why so many hunting guides will adamantly sell a potential client on the same elk hunt that they later claim lacks elk. :?


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## martymcfly73

Maybe Berry should stick to fishing and running a second rate marina. Leave the adult discussions to us big boys.


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## martymcfly73

goofy elk said:


> I've got to wonder how many years of experiance on the WASATCH
> there is between TAK, blaster, and phez ?? Bet its quite a few!
> Cuz, their spot on.....
> 
> I know I've been hunting the Wasatch unit since 1977, when I turn 16.
> 35 years for me....
> 
> It would be intresting to know how many years on the Wasatch these other
> guys have?????


Close to 30 for me. I also hunt the area BB does. But he's outfitter so if it's not 380" the unit is in trouble.


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## martymcfly73

goofy elk said:


> I've got to wonder how many years of experiance on the WASATCH
> there is between TAK, blaster, and phez ?? Bet its quite a few!
> Cuz, their spot on.....
> 
> I know I've been hunting the Wasatch unit since 1977, when I turn 16.
> 35 years for me....
> 
> It would be intresting to know how many years on the Wasatch these other
> guys have?????


Close to 30 for me. I also hunt the area BB does. But he's an outfitter and part of the problem so if it's not 380" the unit is in trouble.


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## Springville Shooter

^^^^^Marty, stop with all the double talk.^^^^^^^^


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## goofy elk

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I am kind of curious as to why so many hunting guides will adamantly sell a potential client on the same elk hunt that they later claim lacks elk. :?


Skinner,
I guided the VERY first non-res LE tag there in 1996 .....

Guided it almost every year until 2009, hunted my wifes tag there in 2010...
AND then QUIT on the Wasatch-----------Moved to other units......


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## goofy elk

martymcfly73 said:


> Maybe Berry should stick to fishing and running a second rate marina. Leave the adult discussions to us big boys.


OMG mcfly,,,, This shows your TRUE caricature?!?!

The Strawberry Marina is a CLASS act..IMO....


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## martymcfly73

Springville Shooter said:


> ^^^^^Marty, stop with all the double talk.^^^^^^^^


I tried to edit it but I forgot I'm only a mod on that site that shall not be named.


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## berrysblaster

Nice mcfly nice...do you immediately insult people who disagree with you in real life or is that just an internet persona? I haven't done or said a single derogatory thing to you, yet because I don't share your view you come down on a family business that has successfully operated now for over 35 years. Class act.

Notice gents neither I nor goofy, here or on any other forum have said a single word about bulls. Sure, I do guide, and year in and year out I spend an inordinate amount of time out in the hills so I can provide a quality experience for a hunter. My references and longevity prove this. I don't kill giant bulls, and don't sell hunters on that experience. I simply work hard and kill good bulls on GREAT hunts. I'm lucky, I love my job and all that it affords me. 

This discussion is not about guides, trophy bulls, or management strategies. It's about numbers, and I posted some numbers that I've gathered through time spent in the hills. McFly obviously disagrees with me but I've yet to see any numbers from him. I'm sure with his extensive experience on the unit he knows where to find all 7700 head. I just haven't learned where to look for them yet I guess....

I'll just stick to running a '2nd class marina' and give up caring about an elk herd that appears to be suffering badly....


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## Mr Muleskinner

The part about Goofy never saying a single word about bulls about made me spit coffee through my nose. Late bull harvest was actually the intent of this thread. Goofy has said that elk numbers including Bulls have been suffering for years. In fact he quit hunting the Wasatch. I respect his opinion on many matters but also take it with a grain of salt when it comes to quality or quantity discussions.

Personally I won't give a lot of credence to the count of any one man. I am sure you spend a ton of time in the hills Berry but you can't cover every cranny of even a single canyon at one time. Many others have hunted the same unit and while they might not be up there as much as you, it doesn't mean that they are full of crap when they say that they saw a lot of elk or more than you counted. I can tell you that I spent three weeks in just one of the spots that you mentioned and I saw far more elk than the numbers you listed. It was my brothers hunt and I spent countless hours on the top of a ridge glassing for him. You may be an experienced guide and a **** good one at that (as may Goofy) but getting head counts this early in the year from the seat of a pickup or on foot doesn't sound like the best method. 

Lastly, there are many people on here that believe that the elk numbers should be reduced anyhow. I don't think anybody is going to believe that the elk are approaching dire straits.


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## berrysblaster

I will give that one too ya mule! I wrote that at 11:30 last night when I was a little peeved at mcfly's comments. Looking back at it, it was more than a little presumptuous haha! 

I will say that the idea was correct, goofy and I aren't harping on the size of bulls. I don't care, I understand the Divisions desire to get to a specific age class and it appears that they are getting there. Just another one of the successful management implementations that they have undertook. 

I am glad that you have seen more elk than me, gives me hope that those of us crying wolf really are up in the night....


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## pheaz

Berry, I happened to run into the head of security in Wolf Creek. They harvested 40 cows out of there this year and he claimed the last 10 hunters had pretty slim picking. There are still cows and bulls don't take me wrong but 7700 it's tough to swallow. I have seen in the past herd bulls with 100+ cows with 5 straggler bulls trailing. The 2013 herd is 1 or 2 bulls and 10 or 20 cows including calfs. I have not started scouting for spring pickup yet but I sure hope they're all high and haven't came down yet.


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## horn hunter

goofy elk said:


> Judd, gathering info for herd counts over the next 45 days on the Wasatch.
> 
> If you wouldn't mind, PM me the general location of thw cows ...
> I'll make sure they are inculded if they are in the Diamond fork unit.


I saw 200 elk last Saturday morning on the wasatch. Mostly cows and calves. A few nice bulls. Try pulling your head out , buy a good set of optics and look. They are there!

And yes, I participated in the "slaughter", and killed a cow


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## berrysblaster

Just so you understand hornhunter there has to be forty....four zero more concentrations of 200 or so head of elk to get to 7700 head....so all of those elk you saw are about 2.5% of what the division is telling you. Hopefully you saw all of them in a small area...


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## Kwalk3

I'm conflicted here, and I will ultimately defer to those who have a lot more experience than I do on the Wasatch. And goofy and bb have a TON of experience up there. There have been a ton of tags for the last several years due to the herd count estimates. I understand that these counts are imperfect, but the methods are at least tested and if these counts are bogus or so far off why is nothing changing? 

I understand and have no doubt that there has been a decline, but herds of 50 elk is by no means unhealthy. The elk I've seen this year up by current creek have been in smaller groups than what I saw two years ago, but I saw about the same number of animals overall. That being said, I don't spend tons of time up there.

Ultimately, as with most issues, the truth lies somewhere between the flowers and roses the dwr is counting as elk(apparently) and the species extermination that is being proclaimed by others. Both sides have valid points and I'm all for changes if the counts are proven wrong and the herd numbers truly call for it.

One thing I for sure agree with is that there should somehow be a distinction or way to exclude animals that spend a majority of their time on private lands to prevent overhunting of cows on the public stuff.

Lastly, goofy, I respect your opinions even when I disagree with some of them, and you seem like you are always looking to help a guy out. It'd be nice to hear some positive reports from time to time though, cuz it's not ALL bad ALL the time


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## horn hunter

berrysblaster said:


> Just so you understand hornhunter there has to be forty....four zero more concentrations of 200 or so head of elk to get to 7700 head....so all of those elk you saw are about 2.5% of what the division is telling you. Hopefully you saw all of them in a small area...


I never left the pavement and saw all of them from my truck in 2 little canyons.... I laughed as I saw truck loads of guys wearing orange, drive right past them. Stalked to easiest herd and bam. Down she went


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## [email protected]

I've been hunting the diamond fork area for a week and so far haven't seen any elk. Any advice is appreciated as this unit is new to me and I would like to have this all wrapped up before the snow gets too deep.


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## TAK

goofy elk said:


> I've got to wonder how many years of experiance on the WASATCH
> there is between TAK, blaster, and phez ?? Bet its quite a few!
> Cuz, their spot on.....
> 
> I know I've been hunting the Wasatch unit since 1977, when I turn 16.
> 35 years for me....
> 
> It would be intresting to know how many years on the Wasatch these other
> guys have?????


I have been in the whiteriver and avitiquin area since a small child. Hunting there since I was 14.. I am 40 now. I have hunted a few other places but find myself always back to my roots...


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## martymcfly73

TAK said:


> I have been in the whiteriver and avitiquin area since a small child. Hunting there since I was 14.. I am 40 now. I have hunted a few other places but find myself always back to my roots...


Hey me too. I haven't hunted there in prob 7-8 years. I spent most of my youth hunting limited entry on the avintaquin for elk and deer. Seen some of the biggest bucks to date there.


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## JuddCT

berrysblaster said:


> I'd be curious to know if guys like Mcfly and judd can post up specific numbers from years of counting....or are they like the typical moron that pulls up their cut rate bushnell and calls every herd they see 30+....hard numbers are hard to come by...
> 
> that being said, in the last 3 years we have seen a 50-75% decrease in nursery cow #'s in the strawberry valley. herds that historically were 150-200 strong are now 50-100 and that's a stretch.
> 
> If you want specifics, this year I came up with 67 head in the coop creek nursery compared to 98 the year before and 5 yrs back the herd was 213 as best we could count.....its difficult to keep track of the elk when there are that many.....
> 
> French hollow/broad hollow has declined from 130-150 5 years ago to 40 this year and that's probably double counting a few....
> 
> Willow creek all I could turn up this year was 55-65 head, one herd of 30 and a smattering of smaller 5-15 head spread throughout.....
> 
> Currant creek had 40-50 head hunting the late hunt these had come off of Little Red Creek saw 5 head on the public side....
> 
> Cascade had 50 head or so, didn't spend much time there but close friends did and that's all they could turn up on public and private....
> 
> YOU GENTS DO THE MATH ON THOSE AND SEE IF IT EVEN COMES CLOSE TO 7700.....


I'm honored you mentioned me by name and thanks for posting. It sounds like you have a lot of experience up there. As I've always said I'm no expert on any unit. That being said, I don't have issues finding the elk when I go look for them. I learned what elk/deer hunting was hiking up and down those steep hills in the Avintaquin unit as a small boy. They are very dear to my heart, but I don't hunt them anymore. I've only started paying attention to the Wasatch (lake creek over to currant creek) unit for about 6 years now. I really love that country and I haven't seen a lack of deer or elk. In fact I saw about 6 bulls (1 about 350 and the other around 275-315) just this morning, but that was from the porch of our cabin so I wasn't really trying and the 50+ cow/calfs I did see I had to work for as I had to snowshoe to see them. That being said, you are right! A typical moron like myself doesn't assume the DWR is out to get them and artificially inflating herd counts. While the naysayers scream the DWR is out for more money by giving more tags, i say those same naysayers are usually out for their own benefit as well. This is why I'll continue to rely on the herd counts given by the DWR and use them as a guide. They might be high, but that doesn't mean I have to believe chicken little and his band of chicklets just because they say so when they want fewer tags.


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## TAK

martymcfly73 said:


> Hey me too. I haven't hunted there in prob 7-8 years. I spent most of my youth hunting limited entry on the avintaquin for elk and deer. Seen some of the biggest bucks to date there.


I have hunted my fair share of some of them nice buck.. seems they continue to elude me.


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## [email protected]

I've been hunting the diamond fork area for a week and so far haven't seen any elk. Any advice is appreciated as this unit is new to me. I've been told to stick with the waters but no such luck up 3rd, 6th, and 4th. Tried the view from strawberry ridge down, no luck thus far. Please shoot an email my way or something thanks.


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## swbuckmaster

This is my observation

I haven't seen many cows at all. I used to see hundreds. When I do see elk its usually bulls and there in small groups of 2-10.

I personally don't think there is 7700 elk on the wasatch. So I'd like to know how many tags were filled and what the success rate was. This is the only way you can get an accurate reading on what's out there.

With the division implementing the late rifle tags the small pockets of bulls I did see will get hammered. 

Boom bust is how we manage our game in Utah.


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## dkhntrdstn

hazmat said:


> from what i seen in the currant creek area. yes there were alot of bulls that hit the ground on the late hunt. but even more cows during the rifle deer.


that funny. i only seen one cow get taken out of that area. every one I talked to could not find the elk.


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## berrysblaster

This is what I find odd, on a unit that is managed for a large number of elk, with past success rates of antlerless hunts hovering between 60 and 90%, and that is supposedly WAY WAY WAY over objective, we have guys saying they can't find an elk. Or that they can't find many cows all they see is bulls. 

What's really scary is that it's not just a few fella's here and there that don't hunt much and are looking for a helping hand. It's guys who spend hours, days, and months out of the year traversing the entire unit. 

So you gent's who are on the divisions wagon and don't see anything wrong with the COW POPULATIONS only ask yourselves, should that happen?? And if the answer is yes, Did you spend more time on the unit than the person crying foul?? 

The point being, what seems like a lot of elk too you may not be a lot of elk compared to years past...I saw another thread where a fella had the gall to recommend a unit to a guy that he had only been on like 3 times and that was in the last year...this same fella frequented this thread to say that there were plenty of elk and that he didn't see a single thing wrong....I mean come on guys...i'm not the oldest fella around, and a lot of guys have a heck of a lot of years on me, but I've got three generations worth of knowledge to pull off and a decade of experience myself on this one place. We don't know one single thing about another unit in this entire state, but we know enough to get by about this one. 

Things are not right, what we are being sold is not adding up, and enough people are seeing it to warrant some serious concern.


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## Kwalk3

berrysblaster said:


> This is what I find odd, on a unit that is managed for a large number of elk, with past success rates of antlerless hunts hovering between 60 and 90%, and that is supposedly WAY WAY WAY over objective, we have guys saying they can't find an elk. Or that they can't find many cows all they see is bulls.
> 
> What's really scary is that it's not just a few fella's here and there that don't hunt much and are looking for a helping hand. It's guys who spend hours, days, and months out of the year traversing the entire unit.
> 
> So you gent's who are on the divisions wagon and don't see anything wrong with the COW POPULATIONS only ask yourselves, should that happen?? And if the answer is yes, Did you spend more time on the unit than the person crying foul??
> 
> The point being, what seems like a lot of elk too you may not be a lot of elk compared to years past...I saw another thread where a fella had the gall to recommend a unit to a guy that he had only been on like 3 times and that was in the last year...this same fella frequented this thread to say that there were plenty of elk and that he didn't see a single thing wrong....I mean come on guys...i'm not the oldest fella around, and a lot of guys have a heck of a lot of years on me, but I've got three generations worth of knowledge to pull off and a decade of experience myself on this one place. We don't know one single thing about another unit in this entire state, but we know enough to get by about this one.
> 
> Things are not right, what we are being sold is not adding up, and enough people are seeing it to warrant some serious concern.


ultimately I haven't spent enough time there to have a truly educated opinion one way or the other. I've seen elk, but you have spent a lot more time than I(or probably any other single person) has on the unit. I would think the truth isn't as good as the DWR says, but also not as bad as some think either. How should the problem be remedied? I know, tag cuts, but aside from that there has to be options to improve the counts and/or the overall management plan to benefit this and other units. Thanks for the input.


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## papaderf

well I can't remember if I have said we hunted the red creek area and saw one bull and cow and her baby my son had a cow permit but I told him not to shoot the cow because the calve would die so he didn't understand until the bear came out then it was a little more real. But he asked how come the elk aren't in herds or in at least 10. I said bad year or timing. Here is the kicker we drive down and their are 5 cows in some big azz group camp that is gated access. His comment was dad they don't seem to care. I didn't tell him that I've been here for a lot of years and something isn't right. My point is that my kid can see the elk not being there so the bulls will pay this price not this year or next but do the math the elk may be there now but not in three years.bulls get cow cow make baby baby becomes bull... Oops shot all the cows. As one smart person on this forum once said make this a sub-unit so we can monitor a little better.-O,-


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## goofy elk

berrysblaster said:


> What's really scary is that it's not just a few fella's here and there that don't hunt much and are looking for a helping hand. It's guys who spend hours, days, and months out of the year traversing the entire unit.
> 
> So you gent's who are on the divisions wagon and don't see anything wrong with the COW POPULATIONS only ask yourselves, should that happen?? And if the answer is yes, Did you spend more time on the unit than the person crying foul??
> 
> Things are not right, what we are being sold is not adding up, and enough people are seeing it to warrant some serious concern.


I sure am glad to see you posting on the UWN form Blaster!!!!!

I need some help with a few of these guys on here once and a while.;-).


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## DarKHorN

papaderf said:


> well I can't remember if I have said we hunted the red creek area and saw one bull and cow and her baby my son had a cow permit but I told him not to shoot the cow because the calve would die so he didn't understand until the bear came out then it was a little more real. But he asked how come the elk aren't in herds or in at least 10. I said bad year or timing. Here is the kicker we drive down and their are 5 cows in some big azz group camp that is gated access. His comment was dad they don't seem to care. I didn't tell him that I've been here for a lot of years and something isn't right. My point is that my kid can see the elk not being there so the bulls will pay this price not this year or next but do the math the elk may be there now but not in three years.bulls get cow cow make baby baby becomes bull... Oops shot all the cows. As one smart person on this forum once said make this a sub-unit so we can monitor a little better.-O,-


But if we do that how would we please the Special interest munchers. You know with all the opportunity lost.


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## alpinebowman

Well I have said it elsewhere but will throw in my 2 cents. I spent 20 days scouting and 20 hunting the unit this year and saw lots of elk. Granted I didn't see many big bulls but I saw over 100 branch antlered bulls 6-10 spikes and close to 700 cows with 200 of them being in willow. I finally started getting into some decent bulls once the hunt started but I was chasing 4 340-350 type bulls in the bowl I was hunting and know of several other 350 + bulls that others killed or were chasing during the season. Oh and I never saw another hunter within a mile of me during my hunt and was in a pretty popular area close to the roads. 

I certainly don't have decades of experience but I saw more elk this year than on my wife's hunt 2 years ago. that being said I think i was able to find a few bigger bulls pre-season on her hunt but not many. I am certainly interested to see what the control permit holders killed but I know the close to 700 cows I saw were not in the control permit area.


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## Vanilla

We too saw a decent amount of elk in the 7 days of scouting/hunting during muzzy hunt. Didn't count cows, but if I had to guess it was between 40-50 in French alone and more in the surrounding areas we looked around and hiked to. 

I had never been there before this year, and concede I have no idea how it was 'back in the day.' But our experience was good enough that my other brother is already excited for next years hunt. He has a real good shot to draw the muzzy tag and we will be at it again. 

I will say in a little summer scouting we didn't see many cows in the Waters and saw a couple spikes only.


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## goofy elk

TS30 said:


> We too saw a decent amount of elk in the 7 days of scouting/hunting during muzzy hunt. Didn't count cows, but if I had to guess it was between 40-50 in French alone and more in the surrounding areas we looked around .


4-5 years ago, there were 300+ elk in French hollow and the surrounding area.


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## goofy elk

TS30 said:


> We too saw a decent amount of elk in the 7 days of scouting/hunting during muzzy hunt. Didn't count cows, but if I had to guess it was between 40-50 in French alone and more in the surrounding areas we looked around and hiked to.
> 
> I will say in a little summer scouting we didn't see many cows in the Waters and saw a couple spikes only.


Beteen 1997 and 2009, in the waters, there were literaly 1000's of elk!

In 1998, opening day of LE rifle season, we counted 48 different bulls
between 6th and 3rd water-----IN ONE DAY!, over a 1000 cows.


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## bbford

I scouted the waters pretty good for the late hunt and didn't see a single elk in there. I saw in the month of scouting I seen a total of 5 cows on the white river side and I'd bet 40+ bull's between white river and sheep Creek. The pine face that I killed my bull on I bet had close to 15+ bull's on it the night before the hunt


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## martymcfly73

goofy elk said:


> Beteen 1997 and 2009, in the waters, there were literaly 1000's of elk!
> 
> In 1998, opening day of LE rifle season, we counted 48 different bulls
> between 6th and 3rd water-----IN ONE DAY!, over a 1000 cows.


Were those in your drinking days? Seeing double? Glad you're off the sauce.


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## Vanilla

Goofy,

If I had to guess while including the surrounding areas very near in proximity I'd say we saw probably close to 100. I may be off, because as I said, we weren't counting cows. Definitely not 300+, but I also am 100% positive we didn't see all the elk in there as well. Again, I'm not suggesting the unit is what it was or even what it should be. But we were pleased with what we saw in our first time hunting there. Would have loved to have found one or two real big boys. But that is hunting. My brother ended up shooting a 320-330 bull. He was happy. 

As for the Waters, those are staggering numbers. I'd say the 'healthy' number is somewhere between what you saw in 1998 and what bbford saw this year. I didn't like the cow tags they tacked on the buck and bull tag holders. Even if a unit is over objective, that seems like a bad way to manage.


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## berrysblaster

This is such useful information, what you gents see is so valuable in so many ways. 

I like to hear what alpine said, it makes me hopeful! But to put that in perspective, I wonder how much of the unit did he scout to see all of those elk? I'd guess he found the majority of them in obviously willow creek, the waters, diamond fork, halls fork, wallsburg, and the strawberry river/coop creek range. If that's the case, then that's about 1/3 of the unit but not even close to 1/3 of the elk (2500 Roughly). So even if sightability was poor, and his time spent in those areas was slight, it is not even close to enough to make up what should have been there. I really hope that their weren't more areas.....

hearing guys say that they saw 40-60 cows in a drainage is not a healthy thing either. Even tho that's a lot of elk, it would take literally hundreds of those herds spread across this unit. Nearly every canyon would have to hold herds of this size. A fella should be able to pull up to any single canyon and see herds of elk on any given day. 

I don't remember there ever being '1000's' of elk in the waters, but there may well have been. When population estimates were at objective or just slightly above, it was not uncommon to drive strawberry ridge and see 4-500 head of elk if the conditions were just right.....ie rain on a late June day that brought all the bachelor herds and nurseries out to feed in the afternoons. Now you're lucky to see 100 or at least I was. 

Are there a lot of elk to see on the unit?? Sure, but are there enough elk to warrant the management strategies that we are seeing right now? IMHO no way. But i'm not God, I sure don't own a helicopter, and I Don't answer to politicians and a budget so what do I know??


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## goofy elk

martymcfly73 said:


> Were those in your drinking days? Seeing double? Glad you're off the sauce.


I'll re-phrase, shouldn't have used "1000's"..... IT WAS.

During those years, between Two Tom And Tie fork, During the rut,
There were OVER a 1000 head of elk.:!:.:!:.:!:-------

I'd be curios to hear from TAK,
How many elk do you think there was from Strawberry peak over to
the Right fork of Indian canyon...Years 1997-2009...?.....
Compared to today?


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## pheaz

Victory Ranch winter herd migrated in Wednesday. 94 total bull/cow/calf that's 1/3 of the years past. 50 in Redledges, 62 in Lake Creek haven't seen many inMidway but haven't got of the pavement neither.


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## goofy elk

pheaz said:


> Victory Ranch winter herd migrated in Wednesday. 94 total bull/cow/calf that's 1/3 of the years past. 50 in Redledges, 62 in Lake Creek haven't seen many inMidway but haven't got of the pavement neither.


YES, pheas too.:!:.

What would you guess those herd numbers were between 1997 and 2009.?

Spacific times like during the rut, or winter grounds, or nurser'ies work great...


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## pheaz

We fed the Red Ledges herd in 09, 554 head. Good estimate would be -100 head per year. In this general area. Not much action up Daniels yet, I'm hoping they're still high.


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## goofy elk

Hey pheas, am I reading this right?

Red Ledges herd, 2009, 554 head of elk...

So far this year , 50 total elk??


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## vaportrail

I have a diamond fork cow tag and have spent 5 days so far hiking all over the waters from strawberry ridge down into the canyons toward diamond fork and on the south side of teat and billies as well. I've cut three solo tracks in that time and seen one bull way off on a hillside at dusk. That's it. I've fished and hunted upland in this area for about 20 years, never big game though I always saw a ton of elk up there. I put in for this tag based on that, but hadn't been up there for a couple years- seems its changed. 
And not for the better. I could seriously use the meat this year. Will try again this coming week.


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## berrysblaster

Pheaz, the daniels herd on the west side already came off, counted 125+- head of cows, 16 bulls and 5 spikes...I didn't see all of them but that was most. the 3 c's east side of the hwy herd has not shown up yet or is gone. they have dwindled for the last 3 years.

Vapor, the elk you are looking for will be as low as possible on your unit...I don't think there will be any above the paved road at all....concentrate below it. if your tag is even valid for below it? Not sure


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## pheaz

goofy elk said:


> Hey pheas, am I reading this right?
> 
> Red Ledges herd, 2009, 554 head of elk...
> 
> So far this year , 50 total elk??


Yup


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## vaportrail

Blaster, you mean below the rays valley/sheep creek road? Most of it is closed at this point. I'm going to have to try billies and teat again as well as diamond proper. Really surprised that there are so few elk there now. I used to see them all the time up there without even trying.


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## goofy elk

vapor. 
Those ares you mention USE TO BE full of elk during winter months.

2008-09 (and pryor) there were AT LEAST 500 to 600 head winter there...Those days are gone.

Last year it was less than 100 .....

So far this year my count in those areas is at zero ......

Lots of new snow, hoping elk will show up......Heading there today to check tracks.
I aslo will be on hwy 6 and Dimond fork most of next week.
I'll PM you if I finf any.


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## vaportrail

goofy elk said:


> vapor.
> Those ares you mention USE TO BE full of elk during winter months.
> 
> 2008-09 (and pryor) there were AT LEAST 500 to 600 head winter there...Those days are gone.
> 
> Last year it was less than 100 .....
> 
> So far this year my count in those areas is at zero ......
> 
> Lots of new snow, hoping elk will show up......Heading there today to check tracks.
> I aslo will be on hwy 6 and Dimond fork most of next week.
> I'll PM you if I finf any.


Thanks, I appreciate it. I will be going down on Tuesday. Any help would be great. 
Been a tough year for me, a pile of elk meat would be a major bonus.


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## vaportrail

Oh, and sorry for the semi-hijack. Carry on...


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## TAK

goofy elk said:


> I'll
> I'd be curios to hear from TAK,
> How many elk do you think there was from Strawberry peak over to
> the Right fork of Indian canyon...Years 1997-2009...?.....
> Compared to today?


Alex the answer is.... a lot more than now! Not sure just who does these counts but ****!


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## goofy elk

TAK said:


> Alex the answer is.... a lot more than now! Not sure just who does these counts but ****!


Here a few interesting facts about the Avintaquin elk herd:

Herd objective--1,600

Esatamated herd size(post 2012)---1,750

2013 Anterless draw permits------900

PLUS---UNLIMITED antler-less, OTC cow control permits.
And these tags could be fill on any general deer or elk hunt!! HUMMM.


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## TAK

goofy elk said:


> Here a few interesting facts about the Avintaquin elk herd:
> 
> Herd objective--1,600
> 
> Esatamated herd size(post 2012)---1,750
> 
> 2013 Anterless draw permits------900
> 
> PLUS---UNLIMITED antler-less, OTC cow control permits.
> And these tags could be fill on any general deer or elk hunt!! HUMMM.


 And they sale out... $$$$


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## swbuckmaster

What is the point of unlimited cow tags if there is already draw tags? 

I tell ya the state dwr has a bunch of idiots running the show. I'm sure the reason its getting harder to find the elk is because were lazy


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## goofy elk

I agree SW,
Ecept I'm thinking Why have draw permits if theres unlimted control cow tags?

Take the Current creek part of the Wasatch. Whats the point of antler-less
draw permits????---- These late tags are looking pretty much screwed!

Why, Cuz every one and their dog had a control cow permit along with their
general season tags......What didn't get killed, got ran off public ground.....


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## berrysblaster

$$$$ Is a pretty simple answer as to why...


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## Kwalk3

goofy elk said:


> I agree SW,
> Ecept I'm thinking Why have draw permits if theres unlimted control cow tags?
> 
> Take the Current creek part of the Wasatch. Whats the point of antler-less
> draw permits????---- These late tags are looking pretty much screwed!
> 
> Why, Cuz every one and their dog had a control cow permit along with their
> general season tags......What didn't get killed, got ran off public ground.....


I agree that this seems strange. Guys with draw tags got hosed because they also paid an app fee and more money for the tag. Generally speaking, especially with an area that gets sooo much hunting pressure because it's easy to access, unlimited cow tags seem a little excessive. I don't have a huge problem with some cow tags up there, but the unrestricted on top of everything else doesn't seem to make a ton of sense.


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