# Scops on muzzloader



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

How big of a scope can you have on your muzzy? I try ed to find it in the proc but cant.So any info would be great. Thanks


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

Page 38 2010 Big game guide book.

muzzleloaders
Utah Code § 23-20-3 and Utah Admin. Rule R657-5-11
Muzzleloaders may be used during any big game hunt—except the archery hunt. To hunt big game with a muzzleloader, your muzzleloader must meet all of the following requirements:
It can be loaded only from the muzzle.•
It must have open sights, peep sights or a • fixed non-magnifying 1x scope.
It can have only one barrel, and the barrel • must be at least 18 inches long.
It cannot be capable of firing more than • once without being reloaded.
The powder and bullet—or powder, sabot • and bullet—cannot be bonded together as one unit for loading.
It must be loaded with black powder or a • black powder substitute. The black powder or black power substitute cannot contain nitrocellulose-based smokeless powder.
To hunt big game, you must use a lead or expanding bullet or projectile that’s at least 40 caliber in size.
If you’re hunting deer or pronghorn, your bullet—including your sabot—must be 170 grain or heavier in weight. If you’re hunting elk, moose, bison, bighorn sheep or Rocky Mountain goats, you must use a 210 grain or heavier bullet, or a sabot bullet that’s at least 240 grains.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

thanks.


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## WHutchings (Jan 6, 2009)

It's too bad all we can use is a 1x power scope considering the human naked eye is 2x. :shock:


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## JRA (Nov 18, 2009)

your probably right. whutchings,I put a red dot on my muzzle loader this year and I sure liked it. and I don't know how, but it helped me.( not to see any farther ) but at least the front sight being hid at long distance shots didn't matter!


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

the one thing i really like on my little one power scope is it gives me a smaller aimpoint and thats is a great help but like others i surely cannot see what a 
scope with power up to 3 x are so would hurt. alot of states have no restrictions as to the power of the scope after all its still a muzzleloader with 
limitations on the ranges its effective to me the added power on the scopes 
would help to elemenate some of the wounding losses but than im sure some
folks would try shots ouside there abllity so i guess were just gonna have to
stick with the one power at least here in utah


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## Hunter Tom (Sep 23, 2007)

I am ready to buy a 1x for my muzzy and my question is: Do you forsee any movement to change to more powerfull scopes? THANKS


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Dustin, I'll save you the trouble of trying to pick a "Scops", just go buy the Sightron 1x, you won't regret it.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I sure hope they don't ever pass a law allowing a 3x9 scope on a ML. If you want to hunt with a scope on your gun then buy a rifle tag.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> I sure hope they don't ever pass a law allowing a 3x9 scope on a ML. If you want to hunt with a scope on your gun then buy a rifle tag.


What if you want to hunt with a scope on your muzzleloader during the rifle hunt? I love shooting a smoke pole and don't have the best of eyes so a 3x9 would be great if used only during the rifle hunt but you can't cause of this dumb law.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> What if you want to hunt with a scope on your muzzleloader during the rifle hunt? I love shooting a smoke pole and don't have the best of eyes so a 3x9 would be great if used only during the rifle hunt but you can't cause of this dumb law.


If you cannot see good enough with your naked eye through a red dot scope then you need to get closer because your probably trying to shoot to far to begin with.

Also if they allow a 3x9 scope on a rifle hunt then some idiot would want to hunt with his 3x9 scope during the ML hunt. If your eyes are that bad that you need a 3x9 scope instead of a red dot scope then maybe you need to check into lasik surgery. OR like I said get closer to the animal.

Yes, ML only shoot one shot and then you need to reload, but we don't need guys running around with 3x9 scopes on there MLs.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > What if you want to hunt with a scope on your muzzleloader during the rifle hunt? I love shooting a smoke pole and don't have the best of eyes so a 3x9 would be great if used only during the rifle hunt but you can't cause of this dumb law.
> 
> 
> If you cannot see good enough with your naked eye through a red dot scope then you need to get closer because your probably trying to shoot to far to begin with.
> ...


Maybe I have had lasik. And maybe I have a eye condition that doesn't really get much better by wearing glasses or contacts. But its not bad enough to qualify for the divisions disability standards. I would think some one who has a physical disability would understand that not everyone has got the perfect body. Adding a scope to my muzzle loader I'm not expecting to be able to extend my shooting distance. But just to have the best accuracy as possible with the fun of still shooting my muzzle loader. With the new technology on muzzle loaders they can shoot just as good as some people's old deer rifles so why should I not be able to use it with a 3x scope on rifle hunt?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> coyoteslayer wrote:
> What if you want to hunt with a scope on your muzzleloader during the rifle hunt? I love shooting a smoke pole and don't have the best of eyes so a 3x9 would be great if used only during the rifle hunt but you can't cause of this dumb law.
> 
> If you cannot see good enough with your naked eye through a red dot scope then you need to get closer because your probably trying to shoot to far to begin with.
> ...


I can understand your problem. I WANT a lot of things to. Life isn't fair sometimes. I wouldnt care if you only used it on the rifle hunt, but I would NEVER want a law passed where people can shoot a ML with a 3x9 scope during a ML hunt. It's a primative weapon hunt and I would like to keep it that way. I hope you would see my point of view


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

I do understand how you want to keep the muzzy hunt primitive and I'm all for that. I definitely think its important since an omega can be a tack driver especially with a scope where most average flint locks wouldn't really be able to benefit from having a better scope.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

deadicatedweim said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > I sure hope they don't ever pass a law allowing a 3x9 scope on a ML. If you want to hunt with a scope on your gun then buy a rifle tag.
> ...


Yeah, it is pretty lame. A friend wanted to use a 3-9X scope on the rifle hunt this last season and was told he would be cited because a muzzy with a magnifying scope is not a legal weapon. :roll:


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## ut1031 (Sep 13, 2007)

This reg has never made any sense to me. A 1x scope is downgrading your own eyesight. At minimum I feel you should at least allow a 2x so you see what your eyes see. I do agree with the getting closer thing......
K


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

Whats next, complain that we cant put rockets on our arrows! :roll:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

mack1950 said:


> alot of states have no restrictions as to the power of the scope after all its still a muzzleloader with
> limitations on the ranges its effective to me the added power on the scopes
> would help to elemenate some of the wounding losses but than im sure some
> folks would try shots ouside there abllity so i guess were just gonna have to
> stick with the one power at least here in utah


1x, 3 x 9, or no scopes you are always going to have people who try shots far beyond their shooting ability.

It took several years of campigning but my home state went to no restrictions on scopes back in 97, they didn't kill any more deer after than before.

Sooner or later the DNR will allow them, its a just a matter of time.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> It took several years of campigning but my home state went to no restrictions on scopes back in 97, they didn't kill any more deer after than before.
> 
> Sooner or later the DNR will allow them, its a just a matter of time.


I believe the terrain here is a lot different then down in your home state. A lot of shots are closer back home. I go to blackpowder shoots every year and can hit a silhouette with open sights at 300yds. If 3x9 scopes were allowed then most guys will be shooting 300 plus yds because the scope will allow them to see that far. The ML hunt would be more like a rifle hunt. Yes they only shoot one shot and then you need to reload. One shot should be plenty with a good rest and steady aim. The last 10 animals that I have killed have all been with 1 shot.

Again, I don't want to see the ML hunt turn into another rifle hunt. A lot more mature bucks will be killed because a 3x9 scope makes it much easier. You wouldn't need to try and get closer and taking the chance of spooking the buck.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > It took several years of campigning but my home state went to no restrictions on scopes back in 97, they didn't kill any more deer after than before.
> >
> > Sooner or later the DNR will allow them, its a just a matter of time.
> 
> ...


I cann't beleive how much bull is spread out in this post. It seems that the last animals that you have posted. that you have tagged been shot with a rifle. i would also like to know with what muzzle loader you have been shooting out to 300 yards. also the ROT and bullet would be nice to know.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I can shoot over 200 with a BP and so can you by your own admission, we both probally pratice a lot with our setups and use rangefinders, at least I do. I'd wager that most hunters can't hit a paper plate at 150 yards scope or not. 

You would be surprized how open it is or should I say how far you can take shots back home, I typically hunt the field edges.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I cann't beleive how much bull is spread out in this post. It seems that the last animals that you have posted. that you have tagged been shot with a rifle. i would also like to know with what muzzle loader you have been shooting out to 300 yards. also the ROT and bullet would be nice to know.


Sagebrush, shooting is shooting. I'm very accurate with my ML, but it's true the last few years have been with a rifle. My 58 cal can easily go 300 yds and hit a sihouette on the side of a hill. They aren't pea shooters.

Yeah, Mojo I'm sure there is places where you can take some pretty long shots at times in really open areas where there isnt a lot of trees.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Sage, I shoot a T/C Encore w/h 150 grs of 777 pellets under a T/C shockwave 250 gr sabot, use the Winchester 777 primers, with either a Sightron 1x or a 3x9 scope on top (I have the Leopold quick release mounts to switch scopes when I go home). Off a bench or a good rest I can hit the gong up at the Avon range with stunning regularly, it is a little larger target than a deer, but I fell pretty confident out to 225 or so with that rig when I have a steady rest. For the record, my buck last year was shot at less than 40 yards, but it pays to be prepared.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

coyoteslayer I guess you do not care to share your loads and rifle with us then.
I'am in the market for a new muzzle loader and if you have one the that will hit 300 yards at will, it could be something for me to take a look at.

here is some info about muzzleloaders for you, and others to read.
http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/image ... oading.htm

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/a ... 1&magid=23


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I've been playing with some loads just the past couple days,, I've put a 
optical scope on an .45 caliber knight with a muzzle break and a kick pad.......
It's a freak'in sniper muzzy!

The whole purpose of this is, Wyoming allows this set up, And I've got a unit that
is muzzle loader only for antelope and my son and I would be guaranteed tags with 
the amount of points we have............

What I saw today was UNREAL,,,We are hitting paper plates at 200 yards consistently!

Here is the ballistic chart of the loads we are using.......... 


LONG RANGE EXAMPLES 
.45 QT Polymer Tip - 195 grain - .45 caliber sabot - 120 grains Pyrodex P - BC .268 
Distance (yards) Muzzle 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 450 500 
Velocity (fps) 2150 2003 1864 1732 1609 1495 1388 1292 1209 1142 1087 
Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 2001 1738 1504 1298 1120 968 835 723 633 564 512 
Trajectory 0 2.5 4.3 3.6 0 7.0 17.8 33.2 53.8 80.4 114 

The bottom line is, at 200 yards, kinetic energy is 1298 with only a 7 inch drop!!
More than enough for a lope, and the 3 x 9 scope makes it WAY doable


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

goofy elk you can see that 200 yards is about your max range. notice how fast it drops after that. For a good kill, I beleive you should have about 1200lbs energy upon impact. try doing that without your scope and see how good of a shot you are. peep sights will make it easier.

200 yards is about max for any muzzle loader, sure you can shoot farther but it dosen't mean that I will get a good clean kill either.


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

sagebrush said:


> goofy elk you can see that 200 yards is about your max range. notice how fast it drops after that. For a good kill, I beleive you should have about 1200lbs energy upon impact. try doing that without your scope and see how good of a shot you are. peep sights will make it easier.
> 
> 200 yards is about max for any muzzle loader, sure you can shoot farther but it dosen't mean that I will get a good clean kill either.


+1


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## ramrod (Apr 15, 2008)

I used to shoot with a scope but decided open sights where better for me. If they ever change the law so we could use a 4 power I would probably try one again, I think it would make for better bullet placement and cleaner kills. I feel it would be more humane and less animals wounded.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ramrod,,,,I couldent agree more!

Alot of guys taking Looong shots with 1x scope doesn't make sense too me....


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## WHutchings (Jan 6, 2009)

+1


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

WOW this post went to the **** fast. when it was a easy question. Dang. thanks for your help the one that did help.


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## RobK (Jul 3, 2008)

I have a 1x sightron ( best IMO ) scope on my encore , with open sights i suck , as i just can't see the front and back sight like i use to , bad eyes . I would not shoot a deer with my muzzle loader at 200 yards , plus even though i could hit one . most( not all ) muzzler bullet will not perform well at long ranges . With the 300 grain bullets i use , they drop around 10- 14' at 150 yards . I also use a range finder because i really suck at judging distances . Its amazing how far off i am . i look at something guess it to be 125-150 yards and then range it , to find its really over 200 -250 . So i use a range finder to make sure everything i shoot at is under 150 +/- .


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## wasatchwillie (Apr 15, 2010)

hi, new here, but felt the need to join in. want to create more hunting opportunities, less crowds, more revenue. how about, a primitive weapons season? percussion,flint, no scopes period. then another season for MODERN IN-LINES, with scopes 3-9 or whatever. with limited tags. you either hunt primitve,modern or centerfire rifle, but not all three. then everyone has a chance to hunt their preferred way.???? just a thought, both are muzzleloaders for sure ,but there are modern and traditional rifles.


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