# Criminal Justice Class.



## adamb (Sep 23, 2007)

Hey y'all I am taking a Criminal Justice course at Weber State this semester. I have a presentation coming up on the subject of "Are Police Outgunned". 

I haven't checked with my Professor yet about doing this but... I was thinking of taking some different caliber ammunition to give my other classmates an idea of what police use and what the people they go up against have access to. 

I was wondering if my Professor gives me the okay, if anybody near the Ogden area might have single rounds in different calibers that they wouldn't mind selling or letting me borrow and then I could return it.


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## JoeRandall (Jun 24, 2012)

The answer would be no. Unless of course your a liberal from the left. Police have just as many options as any local criminal and the both have more options then a law abiding citizen. I saw your other post as well talking about ammo. To "compare" what police have vs others. That would be obsolete what would someone have that the police do not. You can't base your comparison on a normal everyday traffic cop vs a criminal with a 50 cal rifle. If your going to go to the top of the chart of what a criminal may have, you need to go to the top of the chart of what the police have. If your going to talk about the everyday traffic cop you need to compare that to the everyday criminal which would normally be unarmed. 

Just my short .02 cents

Also I would refrain from bringing live ammunition into a class and let it be passed around. Use dummy ammo or spent cases. Just from a safety standpoint.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

I would say it depends. I would estimate only about 40% of LEO's carry rifles/carbines, maybe 60% carry shotguns or a combination of rifle/shotgun, all carry a sidearm, generally a 9mm or .40 cal. I could show a couple 100 instances where cops were outgunned and instances where they outgunned the criminal. The problem in Law Enforcement generally isn't being outgunned its being out maneuvered. You have to remember that LEO's are always responding to situations not creating them, so they start behind the 8 ball. If time is offered any officer can call for S.W.A.T. but callout time for that is atleast 30 minutes in almost all jurisdictions. So really the problem is having a quick enough reaction to any given situation, sometimes cops aren't quick enough. Speaking just to statistics, the .22lr is as deadly as anything out there.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

First, let me say I respect the difficult work LEO's do and affirm that police work is dangerous, stressful and difficult. Still, I say "no", police are not outgunned.

If we presume that "no matter what" sometimes the LEO is going to be "outgunned" than the more relevant question becomes; what weapons are sufficient to defend the community from statistically probable threats? In my completely anecdotal experience, I see few occasions where LE access to more "firepower" [larger caliber, higher rate of fire, longer effective range, armor piercing capability] would have been outcome determinative. This isn't Mexico. We just don't see police stations being targeted by automatic weapons and RPGs. Let's consider what we do see. In an ambush situation, it's usually over before fire can be returned. In close quarters, a handgun (or shotgun) is probably what you want due to maneuverability issues (probably inside a vehicle or building). In the rare long-range firefight, rifles seem to be reasonably accessible. So, no, I wouldn't advocate for more police "firepower".

In 2012, the FBI reports 44 of the 48 victim officers killed that year were killed with guns. Of these 44 officers, 32 were slain with handguns, seven with rifles, and three with shotguns. (Note: that same year 47 officers were killed in accidents, mostly car crashes.) So if the vast majority of police are killed with handguns, what is the appropriate weapon to defend against this? I would argue, a handgun or shotgun. But shotguns armed with buckshot have drawbacks with regard to protecting nearby civilians. So, again, I argue that the police are sufficiently armed (if not over-armed).

I'd be interested on people's thoughts as to whether police are "over-armed" considering how many people are killed by police, compared to the other way around. Even the number of "innocent" (of anything serious) people killed by cops outmatches the number of police who are unfortunately killed. One thing to consider with regard to this question is that when you have a hammer, things tend to look like a nail.

It's interesting to me that although the number of police killed every year has declined from when I was young(er), my interactions with police now-a-days are more tense. I got pulled over recently, sat there for ten minutes and finally got out of the car with my license/insurance to try and speed things along and the guy freaked out a little. That sort of thing seems unnecessary. I can imagine how much worse young, brown, men probably have it.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Keep in mind that presenting such a topic will also add fuel to the anti-gun fire.

I live in Murray otherwise I'd give you a 5.7x28


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Bax* said:


> Keep in mind that presenting such a topic will also add fuel to the anti-gun fire.
> 
> I live in Murray otherwise I'd give you a 5.7x28


A 5.7X28 in a room full of cops?... oh the humanity!


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Bax* said:


> Keep in mind that presenting such a topic will also add fuel to the anti-gun fire.
> 
> I live in Murray otherwise I'd give you a 5.7x28


If you concede that the police _actually are_ outgunned. They have access to full military and LE only arms. They don't give them to your average patrolman, but that's their choice. If they choose to be undergunned, that's on them.

I wouldn't want to carry a 9mm or a .40 into suspected criminal's house. But that's what the superiors at the police department have decided.

In fact, all the evidence shows that the police have not gotten more accurate since they moved to semi-autos. They have become less accurate because they know they have more bullets to use. That's why they are shooting 71 shots at kids in Chicago.

Also, to the OP, I would respectfully submit that it isn't just about the bullet fired through the gun. The rate of fire has a significant effect on any firefight. And, since cops get the military grade goodies, their rate of fire would ALWAYS be superior to anything an average citizen would have. It would probably even be superior to 99.9% of anything out there, criminals included.

One final point - fire and move isn't a tactic policemen can use because of their rules of engagement. That changes the tactics tremendously and has a huge effect on what arms the police should carry to meet their ends.

I wish I had some cool bullets for you but I'm pretty vanilla with my shooting. I don't have anything you can't get at Walmart.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Cooky said:


> A 5.7X28 in a room full of cops?... oh the humanity!


Isn't that the rumor? The 5.7x28 is supposed to be an armor piercing round right?  Those 40gr V-Max bullets are scary!


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I am in Davis County and had a friend make me a little collection of cool stuff including glass piercing, tracers, simi ammo, 50 bmg, rubber pellet shot shells and the 223 stuff used for DEA that doesnt pierce more than one drywall...I forget the name, pretty neat stuff. I really dont like lending out stuff as many people don't seem to have any urgency in returning it, so maybe with some collateral.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I am guessing that the said professor is my dad.. It would be funny to see him handle his own 9mm, 7mm Mag, and 12 gauge buckshot rounds... :mrgreen: along with that I have .204 Ruger, 380 ACP, 32 ACP, 22 LR, 30-30 Winchester, 308 Winchester, 30-06, 270 and 243. 

One alarming finding that I have discovered from his classes is that nearly half of your general public above the age of 21 has a conceal carry permit and half of them actively carry. Utah is not a safe place if you want to cause mischief or rob a bank. If you are going to attempt to jeopardize peoples lives in Ogden 1 in 4 people are likely to return fire and immediately extinguish any opportunity of being the dominant person wielding a firearm. That to me is an encouraging statistic. There will be no large casualty shootings in this great state as long as we are able to keep the element of surprise.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I think that a better study would be the number of officers who shoot recreationally beyond their job duties. I have a few friends in the field who have told me that a decent percentage of cops simply don't ever shoot until it comes time to qualify, then they meet the minimum requirements and head back to the streets. IF there were an issue, I would say being out "skilled" would be more realistic than being out "gunned". It is my opinion that law enforcement is very reliant on outnumbering criminals. I worry that many would not hold up in a one-on-one confrontation with the dangerous criminals in society. If you took 5 random cops and 5 random dangerous criminals, my money would be on the criminals to out shoot, out fight, and out run the cops.----------SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

SS you have that right. 

My neighbor is a retired highway patrol man and the only time that he fires his weapon is when he is required to. Either mandatory practice or qualifying. It doesn't take much to shoot rings around him.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I was up at the range the other day, doing my RSO thing. A young man showed up with a tricked out SBR, and his Glock in a "tacticool thigh rig". He proceeded to shoot at everyone else' targets, play with his guns while the range was cold (with other people down range), and act as though he had no respect for the range rules or the other shooters at the range. His shooting was pathetic to say the least. He had all kinds of excuses when I scored more hits on the 100 yard gong (a 6"plate) with my Single-Six than he did with his issued SBR with the Eotech and all the whistles and bells. The best part was when he claimed to be on the South Jordan SWAT team. I'm glad I don't live in Salt Lake County.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Power/dominance is a brain pleasure, carrying a gun promotes power/dominance , pleasure demands satisfaction.

Of course there are many things that can be substituted for the phrase "carrying a gun". Some good, some bad. Can you think of a few?


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Loke said:


> I was up at the range the other day, doing my RSO thing. A young man showed up with a tricked out SBR, and his Glock in a "tacticool thigh rig". He proceeded to shoot at everyone else' targets, play with his guns while the range was cold (with other people down range), and act as though he had no respect for the range rules or the other shooters at the range. His shooting was pathetic to say the least. He had all kinds of excuses when I scored more hits on the 100 yard gong (a 6"plate) with my Single-Six than he did with his issued SBR with the Eotech and all the whistles and bells. The best part was when he claimed to be on the South Jordan SWAT team. I'm glad I don't live in Salt Lake County.


Sometimes I wish we had a "dislike" buton. Not because your post sucked, but because that ding-dong sucked. I see this at the range I frequent as well. Its not that hard to put your gun away and not play with it while everyone is retreiving their targets....


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Bax* said:


> Isn't that the rumor? The 5.7x28 is supposed to be an armor piercing round right?  Those 40gr V-Max bullets are scary!


The anti's called it the "Cop Killer" because with the LEO/Military only AP loads it will shoot through body armor... as will nearly anything else loaded with that kind of bullet. They were able to get legislation through that outlaws civilian sales of said bullets now days.

The local LEOs use our club range to qualify and practice, on average they are not gun people. Their firearms are tools they are required to carry around (and don't like to 'cause they're heavy and bulky) and doubt they'll ever need. They maintain just enough proficiency to stay qualified and that's it. I am fine with that. I would rather they felt that way than go around convinced they were about to be in a firefight every time they turned around. Jumpy armed people scare me.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Cooky said:


> The anti's called it the "Cop Killer" because with the LEO/Military only AP loads it will shoot through body armor... as will nearly anything else loaded with that kind of bullet. They were able to get legislation through that outlaws civilian sales of said bullets now days.
> 
> The local LEOs use our club range to qualify and practice, on average they are not gun people. Their firearms are tools they are required to carry around (and don't like to 'cause they're heavy and bulky) and doubt they'll ever need. They maintain just enough proficiency to stay qualified and that's it. I am fine with that. I would rather they felt that way than go around convinced they were about to be in a firefight every time they turned around. Jumpy armed people scare me.


You are one of the few that understand this. Most guys think that they are all armor piercing and dont realize that the civilian version is just a varmint round.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bax* said:


> I live in Murray otherwise I'd give you a 5.7x28


Ever watch the new Battlestar Galactica? The "colonial fleet" sidearm was a FN57 Tactical with a grenade launcher. :mrgreen:

-DallanC


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Ever watch the new Battlestar Galactica? The "colonial fleet" sidearm was a FN57 Tactical with a grenade launcher. :mrgreen:
> 
> -DallanC


I haven't ever watched it before.

Seems to go along with the myths associated with the cartridge though.

On a side note, this is a super cheap round to reload for. I've had a lot of fun loading for this cartridge as I have cut costs down by 2/3 by reloading which means I now shoot it even more.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

Maybe you should look into why 60% more Cops have been shot and killed this year.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

USMARINEhuntinfool said:


> Maybe you should look into why 60% more Cops have been shot and killed this year.


We all know it's because the cops are more power hungry and racist than ever. They bring it on themselves.(heavy sarcasm intended)


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

It seemed high to me B. But I didn't know it was that high. 

Additionally, it seems like more shootings in general are happening across the state. People need to stop with their crazies!!!


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

Yeah, 60% more cops have been murdered this year. Felonious assaults on LEO's is up this year and has been trending up the last 5 years. Utah is now one of the top 10 states when it comes to number of officers being assaulted. And people wonder why there have been more shootings this year. Basically, Utah is now one of the top 10 most dangerous places to be a Police Officer, and the public hates us for it apparently.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I for one applaud our officers, thank you for your service.


-DallanC


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

DallanC said:


> I for one applaud our officers, thank you for your service.
> 
> -DallanC


:clap2: Same goes for me!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Not only being shot....why do people always seem to crash into our officers while they are in the line of duty......hello! Check out the bright flashy lights and change lanes. Out of respect would be great, but it's also the law. Bad people will always be dangerous, but stupid good people can be dangerous too.......study that.-------SS


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

Related to the topic of this thread, I am somewhat concerned with what I perceive to be a trend toward greater militarization of the police. A lot of surplus military equipment has been transferred to police force across the country, and this may contribute to a temptation to use it, sometimes inappropriately.


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## MKP (Mar 7, 2010)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/police-officers-killed-2013_n_6213940.html

Not sure where these numbers are coming from.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/24/police-officers-killed-2013_n_6213940.html


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

If you live in Ferguson right now I bet you'd be wishing the cops had apache helicopters.-----SS


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)




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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

ROR! Listen to the scanner and you will see(hear) why they need the equipment they are getting. Them bastards are shooting at the police and national guard!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Here is a better information site for officer deaths:

http://www.odmp.org/search/year/2014

I don't exactly use the huff post as my major resource for matters such as this. When I searched Gunfire in 2013, there were 30 results. This year there are already 42. There are other violent officer killings without a gun though...


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## MKP (Mar 7, 2010)

RandomElk16 said:


> Here is a better information site for officer deaths:
> 
> http://www.odmp.org/search/year/2014
> 
> I don't exactly use the huff post as my major resource for matters such as this. When I searched Gunfire in 2013, there were 30 results. This year there are already 42. There are other violent officer killings without a gun though...


I don't typically use the Huffing and Puffing Post myself, but it had the FBI Statistics I was looking for. The statistics might help us understand if the police are outgunned or not. Certainly the death of any officer is a tragedy. I'm not sure there is evidence that the police are "outgunned", as I'm sure most of those murdered were killed by the "Saturday Night Special" rather than any sort of "super gun". The fact that the state that has lost the most officers is California shows us just how well stringent gun control laws work.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

Just a little something to consider...
http://www.sltrib.com/news/1842489-155/killings-by-utah-police-outpacing-gang


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