# This sucks!!!!



## ForkhornKiiller9000 (Jul 27, 2009)

How many of you guys have had this happen. My first choice this year was buck and bull combo next southeastern, then northern, then central. Well I just received a email saying uncessful in everything. Thanks I can't even draw a general season tag. Anyone now if there's archery tags left?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I've already had 6 phone calls about people not drawing archery 1st choice. My guess is that a lot of people applied for archery to hunt the last year of statewide. Also, I think archery is becoming more popular. Time to issue more tags.........

As far as the other hunts go, 7000 tags already gone, how many more next year??? Show up or take your medicine is starting to become a very useable mantra.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Archery tags should be unlimited, period! But, the archery hating special interest groups that run this states DWR are never going to let that happen... It really is sad. so much opportunity lost for the many because of the narrow minded few.

Besides, look at your name, "forkhornkiller" C'mon! This is an 100% success trophy hunting state! Did you really think they were going to let you hunt with that kind of handle? :evil:


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Archery tags should be unlimited, period! But, the archery hating special interest groups that run this states DWR are never going to let that happen... It really is sad. so much opportunity lost for the many because of the narrow minded few.
> 
> Besides, look at your name, "forkhornkiller" C'mon! This is an 100% success trophy hunting state! Did you really think they were going to let you hunt with that kind of handle? :evil:


TOB,

If there were unlimited archery tags, how many archery hunters do you think there would be? Once the word really got out they were unlimited, how many do you think there would be in year 2, 5? I'm just curious as to your thoughts and those of others. :idea: :?: :mrgreen:


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## Elkster (Aug 22, 2008)

Unlimited??? Holy F!!!! 5 months ago everyone was complaining that we needed to cut tags, and re-vamp the system. Now you didn't get a tag and all of a sudden we need more tags? Freak, what are you going to hunt when there's noting to hunt? Suck it up, we've all missed out on a general tag in the past few years. It sucks, I agree. But we need to try and get some more deer back on the mountain to hunt!


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## HunterDavid (Sep 10, 2007)

> If there were unlimited archery tags, how many archery hunters do you think there would be? Once the word really got out they were unlimited, how many do you think there would be in year 2, 5? I'm just curious as to your thoughts and those of others.


 :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-:

Seriously? Elk tags are unlimited for archery, are they not? Are the hills and mountains running over with people? Granted there are more now than a few years back, but it's sure not anything like the rifle hunt.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

HunterDavid said:


> > If there were unlimited archery tags, how many archery hunters do you think there would be? Once the word really got out they were unlimited, how many do you think there would be in year 2, 5? I'm just curious as to your thoughts and those of others.
> 
> 
> :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-: o-|| :O•-:
> ...


Yep, that's what I was getting at. I really don't think there would be 50K archers running around the hills by any means... at least not for a while, haha :mrgreen:


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

No tag with archery as a 1st choice is insane!!!! Sitting on the sidelines sure does suck especially when many of the players sitting it out have been showing up to to practice more than the ones playing.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

ForkhornKiiller9000 said:


> How many of you guys have had this happen. My first choice this year was buck and bull combo next southeastern, then northern, then central. Well I just received a email saying uncessful in everything. Thanks happy I donate funds to help of game but can't even draw a general season tag. Anyone now if there's archery tags left?


The order of your choices is what sucks. If you would have put Northern as your second choice, you probably would have got it but most likely the S.E. tags were gone on the 1st go around and the Northern were gone after the 2nd choice drawing. Hope that made any sense. I agree with you guys, that there should be more archery tags available.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

I have applied to hunt the southern area for the past 10 years. I would get a tag every other year. Once I got my second choice. This year I didn't get a tag with having one point (no tag two years in a row) BUT my grandaughter got her youth tag (Southern) so it will be a great time this year!!


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

I have applied to hunt the southern area for the past 10 years. I would get a tag every other year. Once I got my second choice. This year I didn't get a tag with having one point (no tag two years in a row) BUT my grandaughter got her youth tag (Southern) so it will be a great time this year!!


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

I love this time of year... Rejoicing by those who drew a tag, and absolute whining by those who didn't. "The system is retarded" (or worse words)... "They need to fix this..." Ya know what, the term "LUCK OF THE DRAW" means a LOT. Yeah, it sucks when you don't draw... I won't lie. But to come on here and say how effed up the system is, or how they need to change it... that is just lame. Sorry, dudes. Just my two cents.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Doc said:


> I have applied to hunt the southern area for the past 10 years. I would get a tag every other year. Once I got my second choice. This year I didn't get a tag with having one point (no tag two years in a row) BUT my grandaughter got her youth tag (Southern) so it will be a great time this year!!


Doc, I like your attitude. Good luck with helping your granddaughter. If I can help out, I will.


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

the only hunt we put in for was archery. we didnt draw it we got unsuccessful on the one and only draw we put in for


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I remember pronghorn tags used to get underdrawn and you could purchase deer tags the day before the hunt... Such days are long gone. Atleast you can still buy an archery elk tag. 

I do agree with ridgetop that Doc does have a great attitude, but I really feel sorry for the folks who go through the hunter education program with the hopes and dreams of hunting deer only to wash up without a tag.


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

duckhunter1096 said:


> I love this time of year... Rejoicing by those who drew a tag, and absolute whining by those who didn't. "The system is retarded" (or worse words)... "They need to fix this..." Ya know what, the term "LUCK OF THE DRAW" means a LOT. Yeah, it sucks when you don't draw... I won't lie. But to come on here and say how effed up the system is, or how they need to change it... that is just lame. Sorry, dudes. Just my two cents.


Come on Dude, it's a HUNTING forum, of course people are going to come on here and voice their displeasure at how things are being managed. It doesn't take much to notice a trend going on here. It is only going to get worse as time goes on. So what if this is a place to vent their frustrations. You can keep your two cents. BTW, I was one of the fortunate ones to get a tag, but I know a lot of other people who didn't. Doesn't mean I think the system is all fine and dandy.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Elkster said:


> Unlimited??? Holy F!!!! 5 months ago everyone was complaining that we needed to cut tags, and re-vamp the system. Now you didn't get a tag and all of a sudden we need more tags? Freak, what are you going to hunt when there's noting to hunt? Suck it up, we've all missed out on a general tag in the past few years. It sucks, I agree. But we need to try and get some more deer back on the mountain to hunt!


Have you been hiding under a rock?! Boy have you got A LOT to catch up on if you want to understand this thread.

Here's the super short version.......Many complained about lack of quality over the last few years, WB asked division to recommend higher buck to doe ratios, divsion stated that raising buck to doe ratios won't help deer herds because bucks don't give birth to fawns, fawns and does are REAL key to improving deer numbers, many opposed changes, they went through anyway, now people aren't drawing tags for no biological benefit to deer, archery success low so many want to see cut tags moved to archery. And oh BTW a new grass roots sporstmans org was formed aimed at representing the masses.

That should bring you up to speed....sort of.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

I'm with TEX. Unlimited Archery deer tags for Residents. If you live in the state you should be able to hunt a deer IMO. It's not going to have a huge effect, and I really doubt that you would see an astronomical increase in hunters afield. Weapon restrictions is a win/win for opportunity and quality.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Sorry, but unlimited tags for a hunt that bumps around the 20% success rate is not what we need, nor the deer. Just like mini-micro-buck units are not what we need. Of course that is just my opinion. I really love to hunt with my bow, but unlimited archery tags do not provide opportunity for everyone. My wife, boy, father, uncles, many friends and family will never pick-up a bow, nor should they be forced to do so to have a hunting opportunity. Divided we fall.

I really feel for the guys who can't draw. I am sitting here with a 12 year old boy who did not draw his deer tag for his first year of hunting. While on the Deer Committee, I proposed that any person who passed hunter ed would receive a deer preference point. That got shot down by the same guys who did an end-run around the system to decrease hunting opportunity. I fear the future will only get worse as the desired results are not seen and tag cuts are further implemented.


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## grousehunter (Sep 11, 2007)

Packout said:


> Divided we fall.


This fighting has to stop! Hunting is not the only cause of the decrease of deer in Utah and anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't spend much time behind a windshield in Utah. I would like to see the numbers on the amount of deer collected by the Division's sub contractors. I drive 40 to 50 thousand miles a year in Utah for my job and this week alone I counted 15 does and one cow elk dead. Five does on the way to Logan Friday, and earlier in the week 7 on the way to park city and 3 does along hwy 40. The Elk was about 100 yards from the second doe I saw after heading to Heber.

Remember that the Doe killed on the highway will never have any/additional offspring, neither will the offspring she should have had! I am not a scientist but the eyes don't lie, they need to take the highways into account before they blame hunters!


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## Duckholla (Sep 24, 2007)

stillhunterman said:


> HunterDavid said:
> 
> 
> > > If there were unlimited archery tags, how many archery hunters do you think there would be? Once the word really got out they were unlimited, how many do you think there would be in year 2, 5? I'm just curious as to your thoughts and those of others.
> ...


Even if there were 50K additional hunters running around the hills as a result of unlimited tags, the success rate of tag holders would still profit the Deer.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Packout, the success rates would PLUMMET if archery permits went OTC. The success rates for Limited Entry elk permits has steadily declined in proportion to the increase in permits. I believe the bulk of the successful 20% are the same group of hunters year in and year out. Novices and rookies won't be anywhere near 20% successful. Having said that, I don't see a scenario based in reality where this will be implemented under the current CORRUPT management system. 

I thought the actions the Wildlife Board has taken over the last 5 years would get hunters to shake off the apathy and get involved to fight for sane policies, but I was dead wrong. The indoctrination of junk science and hyperbole that has taken over has made far too many drones to allow for any real SCIENTIFIC based policies to be enacted.


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

Packout said:


> I really feel for the guys who can't draw. I am sitting here with a 12 year old boy who did not draw his deer tag for his first year of hunting. While on the Deer Committee, I proposed that any person who passed hunter ed would receive a deer preference point. That got shot down by the same guys who did an end-run around the system to decrease hunting opportunity. I fear the future will only get worse as the desired results are not seen and tag cuts are further implemented.


Sorry to hear your boy didn't get a tag for his first year. I can remember how excited I was for my first hunt, and that was back when you could hunt all three. I remember shooting my bow all year long, but ended up taking a small buck on the last day of the rifle. It makes me sick to see how much opportunity has been lost. BTW, that was an excellent proposal, I can't believe something that logical got shot down. I think all 12-14 year olds should be guaranteed a tag for recruitment purposes, I know I would give up hunting every year to see it so.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

While we're on that subject...a few years back my dad struck out for his first time in 40 years of hunting ----no tag. I think it's also kind of stupid to not simply sell tags to our dads and grandpas who are over 60 years of age. They shouldn't even be counted as they don't likely harvest much. More than anything, it's a campfire pass. You could argue they don't need a tag then, but they still have it in their blood, want to sit by the fire and talk about the chance of the big one running through camp. It's EASY revenue with its light footprint, and a slam dunk piece of marketing for the division or whomever suggests it. Let family hunting have some shred of dignity in this system. 

No one will represent those old fellas, because they just hang it up when they feel the need a lawyer or their eyes get tired after the first few pages of the proc. I have a clear recollection of an old man at Parks who was learning about the changes to the 5 units we are now saying goodbye to.  He got all angry and said "You have to be a **** criminal to hunt in this state anymore."


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## quakeycrazy (Sep 18, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> Elkster said:
> 
> 
> > Unlimited??? Holy F!!!! 5 months ago everyone was complaining that we needed to cut tags, and re-vamp the system. Now you didn't get a tag and all of a sudden we need more tags? Freak, what are you going to hunt when there's noting to hunt? Suck it up, we've all missed out on a general tag in the past few years. It sucks, I agree. But we need to try and get some more deer back on the mountain to hunt!
> ...


Spot on brother!!!


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

SteepNDeep said:


> While we're on that subject...a few years back my dad struck out for his first time in 40 years of hunting ----no tag. I think it's also kind of stupid to not simply sell tags to our dads and grandpas who are over 60 years of age. They shouldn't even be counted as they don't likely harvest much. More than anything, it's a campfire pass. You could argue they don't need a tag then, but they still have it in their blood, want to sit by the fire and talk about the chance of the big one running through camp. It's EASY revenue with its light footprint, and a slam dunk piece of marketing for the division or whomever suggests it. Let family hunting have some shred of dignity in this system.
> 
> No one will represent those old fellas, because they just hang it up when they feel the need a lawyer or their eyes get tired after the first few pages of the proc. I have a clear recollection of an old man at Parks who was learning about the changes to the 5 units we are now saying goodbye to. He got all angry and said "You have to be a **** criminal to hunt in this state anymore."


Nicely said........


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

SteepNDeep said:


> While we're on that subject...a few years back my dad struck out for his first time in 40 years of hunting ----no tag. I think it's also kind of stupid to not simply sell tags to our dads and grandpas who are over 60 years of age. They shouldn't even be counted as they don't likely harvest much. More than anything, it's a campfire pass. You could argue they don't need a tag then, but they still have it in their blood, want to sit by the fire and talk about the chance of the big one running through camp. It's EASY revenue with its light footprint, and a slam dunk piece of marketing for the division or whomever suggests it. Let family hunting have some shred of dignity in this system.
> 
> No one will represent those old fellas, because they just hang it up when they feel the need a lawyer or their eyes get tired after the first few pages of the proc. I have a clear recollection of an old man at Parks who was learning about the changes to the 5 units we are now saying goodbye to. He got all angry and said "You have to be a **** criminal to hunt in this state anymore."


I could not agree more. There should be some kind of preference given to seniors who might well be putting in for their last hunt. I also think young hunters should be given some kind of preference as they are the future of hunting and there is a narrow window of opportunity to get them interested in hunting before they become preoccupied with other interests.


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## RoosterKiller (May 27, 2011)

It looks like there are still tags available on the buck and bull combo. 3215 buck tags and 14,300 elk.Looks like unlimited on archery buck.
here's a link.http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/hunting/hu ... ggame.html


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

One last thing on the senior thing...not wanting to hijack the thread...I really think that it is invaluable to have the young boys spend some time with their grandpa. Has countless benefits, one of the least being that they can help the youth understand the value of the opportunities they have. My grandpa was affected by the depression times, and he was able to teach me some lessons in the field and by the lakes that helped me have some of his perspective. 

Once some fish got off a stringer at Schofield and he was ticked. We were the only two on that trip, and he was, at first, convinced I had let them go. I kind of wondered about what the big deal was knowing I hadn't, but later learned that there were times when 2 big fish was really something. He settled down, and didn't blame me, but I did recognize something different in his reaction that I thought was an echo of his previous life. It was kind of that thing where you take food from your dog. Not to compare him to man's best friend, but I had gotten him angry on several occasions. I knew what that was like. That reaction had seemed different. Maybe it was that "food" reaction...hunting/fishing once WAS to put meat on the table. I don't think you can make that argument now, but understanding it is important, and the old fellers help do that amongst many other, magical things. Give em statewide over the counter tags I say!! - with the exception of the true limited entries-whatever that turns out to be.

More ACCESS = BETTER 
REAL QUALITY = BUST YOUR A$$ past all others and hope luck and skill like each other. 
TAG HUNTING SUCKS
I think we already had limited entry hunts...unless I'm mistaken. 

There...now it's back on topic.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

RoosterKiller said:


> It looks like there are still tags available on the buck and bull combo. 3215 buck tags and 14,300 elk.Looks like unlimited on archery buck.
> here's a link.http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/hunting/hu ... ggame.html


Unlimited archery bulls, not bucks.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I really like SteepNDeep's perspective on seniors. That is one observation/idea that is dead on.

I honestly don't know the solution to the deer herd problems, but agree that cutting tags isn't going to solve things. Hopefully, those first time hunters that didn't draw deer tags have dads or friends that will take them elk hunting instead. It's still hunting, the animals are bigger, and you've got to admit, the meat is a helluvalot better!


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> I really like SteepNDeep's perspective on seniors. That is one observation/idea that is dead on.
> 
> I honestly don't know the solution to the deer herd problems, but agree that cutting tags isn't going to solve things. Hopefully, those first time hunters that didn't draw deer tags have dads or friends that will take them elk hunting instead. It's still hunting, the animals are bigger, and you've got to admit, the meat is a helluvalot better!


I agree elk are more bang for the buck but you have to work much harder to kill an elk in this state than you do a deer. Elk hunting is not for the faint of heart. I can find a 2 point for jr far easier than I can find a spike bull.


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

SteepNDeep,

Thank you for sharing your experience with your grandfather. I had the same experience with my grandfather when I was a kid and we were fishing at Scofield from the bank and I caught a nice rainbow that wriggled out of my hands after I had taken the hook out but before I could get it on the stringer. It fell in the water and got away and he got really upset which was out of character for him and it actually made me cry. He felt really bad and later apologized but that experience burned itself into my memory. I think your hypothesis about seeing food go to waste is correct. My grandpa taught me how to hunt and fish as well and for him it was always about self-reliance first and foremost. My grandparents were also the ones who taught me how to grow a vegetable garden, and my grandma taught me how to bottle peaches. They too grew up during the Great Depression, and my grandfather fought in WWII as well. I really do agree with the notion that was America's greatest generation. Perhaps it has something to do with that whole adversity builds character thing. Our generation is a spoiled one. They are both in their 80's now and will be gone soon. The world will be a darker place when that generation is gone.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

alpinebowman said:


> MWScott72 said:
> 
> 
> > I really like SteepNDeep's perspective on seniors. That is one observation/idea that is dead on.
> ...


This is true and it's not just about the kill either. It's much harder just to SEE elk. I hate to say it but deer are just an easier animal to hunt and even if you aren't finding bucks youngsters still get to see does and they feel like they are hunting.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Even if you are not seeing bucks youngsters can still see some does and it feel LIKE they are hunting.

Now that comment right there is going to stick with me for awhile! I agree on some level but to compare that comment to the same comment 30 years ago scares the helllll out of me! And that my fellow sportsmen has nothing to do with antler size!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Muley73 said:


> Even if you are not seeing bucks youngsters can still see some does and it feel LIKE they are hunting.
> 
> Now that comment right there is going to stick with me for awhile! I agree on some level but to compare that comment to the same comment 30 years ago scares the helllll out of me! And that my fellow sportsmen has nothing to do with antler size!


You're reading too much into that comment Cody. Way too much.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Bull, 
I really dont think that I am. But I will tell you this with all honesty. I hope and pray you prove me wrong! I hope you can make a positive impact with your new position, I wish you the best!


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## SLCMULEY (Mar 14, 2010)

Forkhornkiller9000-
You should have at least snagged a Northern tag since there are still leftovers available. You're scenario doesnt make sense! Definitely Sucks


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Bull, I hope the best for you to on the RAC..

But here is were I see a problem, I believe you will have an open mind when voting.
The situation is going to arise when you are going to more than likely vote FOR something
that the UWN (and / or) UWC members will NOT like..............

That's when it will start to get interesting.......And were I wish you luck.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

John Bair voted for Option 1. It is possible to vote against the rash desires of one's "group". I am sure Bull will vote what he believes to be the best. I am certain I will agree with him at times and disagree at other times. I wish him the best. I also wish the best to the 3 new Board members. I can only hope they treat the public with dignity and respect, unlike one member who went off the Board and another who currently sits on the board. The problem I have with "votes" is when someone makes them while having NO information to back up their position. 

And I got what you meant Bullsnot, concerning seeing the game. I take my kids with me and they get excited about every deer we see, be it doe or fawns or bucks. Kids like to see game, even if they can't shoot it. Elk are harder to come by. Simple comparison.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Did Jon vote for option 1? I thought he abstained from voting for any of the options? It also depends on where you are hunting. I know for a fact that we saw more elk than deer this year during the hunts.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

A simple look at the success rates removes ALL doubt, at least to those willing to acknowledge the FACTS, that deer hunters enjoy far higher success rates. Whether it is general season any-bull areas or spike hunts. A teenage rookie hunter has a MUCH higher chance of killing a buck than a bull. It isn't even close!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I have no doubt there will be issues that Kris votes opposite of my stance. I am 100% okay with that if he does so based on data and by doing what he thinks is best for the animals FIRST and the hunters LAST!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I have no doubt there will be issues that Kris votes opposite of my stance. I am 100% okay with that if he does so based on data and by doing what he thinks is best for the animals FIRST and the hunters LAST!


+1, Bull is no ones puppet and that is one of the many things I respect about him.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

animals FIRST and the hunters LAST... :O||: 

That is EXACTLY what option 2 is about for deer...


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Muley- You are wrong.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Packout said:


> Muley- You are wrong.


Always has been. :x

Now we need to COME TOGETHER to fix the wrong!!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Packout,
Who did not vote on the Central RAC? I thought one vote chose not to vote for any of the options? I know Jon did not vote for option 2 but did he actually officially vote for option 1?


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Wiley,
Was I wrong when I thought option 2 would be voted in? Was I wrong to think that the bowhunters were going to flip their lids when they realized they lost their pull? Was I wrong when I said I felt that some units were really struggling? Was I wrong when I said that more people supporting option 2 would show up to the WB in Dec? Was I wrong that some people would take the change personal and blow their tops on public forums? I could keep going if you'd like?

Personally I could care less how we get their I just hope we can get more deer overall in the state. I could care less the route we take to get there. That I believe is something that you can not honestly claim!

I truly wish you all the best and hope somebody, anybody, any organization is successful in rebounding our shrinking deer herds! My children and myself we be forever indebted!


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## JHas (Nov 21, 2007)

Muley and Goofy's parents must be out of town again...


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Jon did vote with the rest of the RAC for option 1. The abstention was from someone else.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> Personally I could care less how we get their I just hope we can get more deer overall in the state. I could care less the route we take to get there. That I believe is something that you can not honestly claim!


**** straight I can't, and WON'T, claim! The end does NOT justify the means, for me. How we get there DOES matter, since how we get there affects ALL of us. If we get 'there' and we have lost a good portion of the hunting community along the way, what have we gained? I care how we get there because there are multiple ways to get there, and taking the 'easy way of cutting permits is foolish and near-sighted at best, IMHO. So, once again we are on polar opposites, as I CARE how we get there, you don't. I care if we have hunter recruitment/retention, you don't. I care if we focus on the does and fawns, you want the bulk of the focus to be on the bucks.......as does your buddy goofy.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Pro,
I again have never been hung up on the BUCKS. It is all about growing more deer. If we have more deer recruitment will go up. You don't know what I care or don't care about. To say you do off of reading post that I write on this comical forum is funny to me. Comments on this forum from most of us are spun and taken on the wrong context. That is what makes it fun and entertaining. We all have our views and usually they nothing more than biased opinions. To claim otherwise by any of us is foolish and big headed! Like I said I hope someone fixes it and I really DONT CARE who gets the credit! Keep the fighting and ideas flowing I have seen more involvement in this than I have for years. That is not a bad thing. 

I wish you would post in colors again so I could better relate to the state of mind you are post in.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> Personally I could care less how we get their I just *hope* we can get more deer overall in the state. I could care less the route we take to get there. That I believe is something that you can not honestly claim!
> 
> I truly wish you all the best and *hope* somebody, anybody, any organization is successful in rebounding our shrinking deer herds! My children and myself we be forever indebted!


I hate to break the bad news, but this route (Option #2) makes all the difference in the world.

I now live in Enoch (Cedar City), but grew up in Magna (Salt Lake) and most of my family are still in Magna. I can tell the whole world 'til I'm blue in the face, I *hope* to visit my kids and grandkids in Magna by driving south on I-15, and I might even believe it myself, but regardless of what I say or believe, I'm gonna end up in Las Vegas. If I'm smart and truthful about my destination, I'll look at a map and/or ask someone who's driven south on I-15 to see where it leads.

EVERY SURROUNDING STATE has been down this route (1- numerous small units, 2- reduced numbers of tags, and 3- increased buck to doe ratios) in the *hopes* of growing the deer herd, but NONE of them have seen those results!!!! It's really quite simple. The 3 major changes in Option #2 do nothing to increase herd numbers!!! They, in fact, take us further away!!

You can drive fast or slow, you can drive day and night, you can use high octane fuel, you can drive a Rolls Royce or a bicycle, but if you go south from Cedar City, you ain't ever gonna reach Magna 'til you stop driving south and turn around and go north. I, for one am doing what I can to, first, get this nonsense stopped! Only then can we get it turned around.


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## elk_horn (Aug 6, 2008)

Forkhornkiller how did you not draw Northern Deer when they have over 3,000 tags left after the draw?????????


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Muley73 said:


> Bull,
> I really dont think that I am. But I will tell you this with all honesty. I hope and pray you prove me wrong! I hope you can make a positive impact with your new position, I wish you the best!


Thanks Muley. We may not agree on how to get there but I can make everyone a promise and that is that I care about the resource above all else. The biology decisions won't be that hard...it's the social decisions that will be tough.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> Bull, I hope the best for you to on the RAC..
> 
> But here is were I see a problem, I believe you will have an open mind when voting.
> The situation is going to arise when you are going to more than likely vote FOR something
> ...


Thanks Goofy. This isn't lost on me and is likely to happen. Anyone in public service can never make everyone happy and rarely will make anyone completely happy. I will do my best to have an open mind and welcome everyones input.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> Pro,
> I again have never been hung up on the BUCKS. So, why do you support reduced BUCK permits? It is all about growing more deer. So, why do you support reduced BUCK permits? If we have more deer recruitment will go up. How do you get more hunter recruitment with fewer permits? Nonsensical.
> 
> I wish you would post in colors again so I could better relate to the state of mind you are post in.


Happy now? 
8)


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Pro,
I will not explain the simple concept again. Your agenda is a personal battle not to be confused with the mess the rest of us are throwing opinions at!!!


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley, So answer Pro's questions! We all would like to hear your logic, not just Pro.

Edit: Let me try again!

Muley, So answer Pro's questions! We all would like to hear your logic, not just Pro.


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> Pro,
> I will not explain the simple concept again. Your agenda is a personal battle not to be confused with the mess the rest of us are throwing opinions at!!!


That is because your "SIMPLE CONCEPT" is flawed!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Another opinion. Here is a FACT the system we have had the past 30 years is flawed and has failed. :|


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Elk, (rainbow warrior)
Do a search on my posts and you can read my logic the first 10 times I took the time to typed it.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> Another opinion. Here is a FACT the system we have had the past 30 years is flawed and has failed. :|


Failed at what?

Obviously people debate whether or not we can believe the population estimates done by the DWR, but I'm definitely not going to believe some other hunter's gut over the many years of statistics and populations samples the DWR has done.

I think the DWR has done a decent/average job at helping the herds to rebound after 93/94. http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/annual_reports/09_bg_report.pdf (page 45).

Obviously it hasn't shot up like most of us wish it would've, but to say that the system has failed is greatly overstated! :roll:

It all comes down to how you define *failure* and *success*.

The fact they have been able to help the herd to grow an estimated 22% since 1993/1994 while the human population has grown by 47% during that same time frame is pretty remarkable. Especially when you consider the human encroachment into prime deer habitat over that same time frame.

Was their plan flawless? Of course not. But to state emphatically the system has failed is absurd. Which is why your FACT is no more than an opinion. 8)

I readily admit certain units are hurting worse than others and looking at the overall population doesn't tell the whole story. Obviously there are some advantages to micro-units (some call them advantages, but I don't want to argue that point right now), but decreasing that many deer (buck) permits and raising the buck to doe ratios doesn't seem like a feasible answer to the question "How do we grow the deer herd". It does however, answer the following question "How do we see more/bigger bucks".


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

JuddCT said:


> ....but decreasing that many deer (buck) permits and raising the buck to doe ratios doesn't seem like a feasible answer to the question "How do we grow the deer herd". It does however, answer the following question "How do we see more/bigger bucks".


Ironically we have been cutting tags extensively for nearly 20 years and that doesn't seem to help deer herds yet some believe the new cuts will be as good as sliced bread.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

As long as the bread is homemade! You know the good ole boy from the country can bake bread much better than the city folk. 

Lots to say, but it would all just be re-hashing the same old stuff.


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## ShedyGaGa (Oct 12, 2019)

The trends with tag sales in Utah are insane. Every year otc elk tags sell out in record time. What did it take this year? 4 hrs and ten minutes? And that is with “unlimited youth permits” added to the equation along with an extra 2500 more tags….

As far as deer tags go, it sucks to not draw a general tag consistently anymore. But, if you have enough cash to play the game, there are other states to pull tags from. Not a solution. Just an option.

I absolutely love the gen season elk hunt because of the memories with dad and the area I grew up hunting. Would be a sad day when I fail to get a tag. But I know it’s coming….probably next year based upon the trends I am seeing.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

We think our issues are new, then an 11 year old thread gets resurrected and the conversation goes on like it didn’t skip a beat.

It good to remind ourselves that the issues we gripe about today aren’t these new issues all the sudden.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

ShedyGaGa said:


> Would be a sad day when I fail to get a tag. But I know it’s coming….probably next year based upon the trends I am seeing.


Are you implying you struggled to get a tag this year?


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## ShedyGaGa (Oct 12, 2019)

As far as elk goes….yes, just about missed the boat this year because of work….Couldn’t get a moment to step away and go to a physical location to buy a tag before they sold out in a record 4 hours time…


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Just hold on to your bucking rigging. The new elk plan is in the pipeline. When it hits it will be all roses and sunshine.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

middlefork said:


> Just hold on to your bucking rigging. The new elk plan is in the pipeline. When it hits it will be all roses and sunshine.


Expanding the pheasant program to include "Put and take elk" from the elk farms? 

-DallanC


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

ShedyGaGa said:


> As far as elk goes….yes, just about missed the boat this year because of work….Couldn’t get a moment to step away and go to a physical location to buy a tag before they sold out in a record 4 hours time…


So you literally don’t have anyone in your life who could have bought one for you? Family? Friends? No one? You couldn’t get on your phone and get one? If it’s important enough to you, you could have made arrangements. It all comes down to priorities and finding solutions to problems


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## ShedyGaGa (Oct 12, 2019)

From 8:00am on, I was on phone at work. Wife was on computer at home. I got booted from system. Wife got booted from system. I called a buddy who decided to try physically grabbing a tag. He was able to get me one last minute.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

ShedyGaGa said:


> From 8:00am on, I was on phone at work. Wife was on computer at home. I got booted from system. Wife got booted from system. I called a buddy who decided to try physically grabbing a tag. He was able to get me one last minute.


Ok. So you still got a tag. What’s the problem?

you understand that you can get in line on the website long before 8 am right? Again, you’re a victim of your own lack of preparation. I didn’t hear of anyone being kicked out of the system this year. You were the first. Odd that you were the 1 who had problems and everyone else who was patient got a tag without any issues


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Just a reminder that this is a resurrection of an 11 year old thread, so none of the complaints here are new.

But in the spirit of the new discussion, I logged on at 10:30, had basically no wait, and could have purchased a general season elk tag easily.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> Just a reminder that this is a resurrection of an 11 year old thread, so none of the complaints here are new.
> 
> But in the spirit of the new discussion, I logged on at 10:30, had basically no wait, and could have purchased a general season elk tag easily.


Ol GaGa was complaining about this year. It’s not a valid complaint and mostly just an issue on their end, but it’s still a recent one.


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## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

This sucks! 😋


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