# Help with my muzzleloader shopping list?



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

A few months ago, I bought a lightly used .50 cal Knight MK-85 from one of my dad's coworkers. All I got with it was the gun and an attached 1x scope, plus some #11 primers that are probably 8-10 years old.

I found out this week that I drew a short weapons doe deer tag that opens September 1, so it's time to get serious about buying the equipment I need and developing a load. I 'm brand new to muzzleloading, so I would appreciate it if I could run my shopping list by you guys and make sure I'm not missing anything important. Here's what I have so far:

Projectile and propellant
My main intent for this gun is deer hunting (if I enjoy it enough I will probably upgrade before chasing elk). I will be hunting the Plateau, Fremont River Valley unit, which is fairly open country, so I'm going to sight it in for 100 yards and keep the shot within 125 yards or so.

That being said, how does a 240 grain Barnes Spit-fire T-EZ sabot with 100 grains of pyrodex (pellets) sound?

Loading and shooting
-Bullet Starter
-Primers
-Speed loader
-Range rod

Cleaning
-Breach plug pick
-Breach plug grease
-Cleaning patches
-Solvents/rust preventatives
-Cleaning jag, bore brush, bore swab

It looks like I can take care of most of the cleaning/shooting stuff with a kit like this one. Thoughts? I may try to purchase things separately as well, but I'll just have to see how the cost pencils out.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting/black-powder/loading-accessories%7C/pc/104792580/c/104701680/sc/104436180/cva-cal-ml-accessory-outfit/1993069.uts

Also, can anyone recommend a good store/online retailer? I'm thinking either Cabela's or Sportsman's Warehouse should work fine. I'd also appreciate knowing about any good sales/rebates that are going on.

Thank you!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

You will want a capper with those #11's


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

> ..so I'm going to sight it in for 100 yards and keep the shot within 125 yards or so.


If you sight in at 100 you will be low by 125, those bullets are falling that fast. You should sight in for 2" high at 100.



Fowlmouth said:


> You will want a capper with those #11's


+1 IMO the T/C Capper is the best.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...w-capper-for-11-percussion-caps-clear-polymer

Also, you will probably find better accuracy at 80 or 90grs of Pyrodex... which means using loose powder. I've never used a ball starter in my life so toss that. You will need a good mop for cleaning the barrel too.

Get a small bottle and keep some windex with you, IMO its the best cleaning solution for smokepoles.

For small parts that I need to soak, I love the CVA soaker:

https://www.amazon.com/AC1686-Barrel-Blaster-Saoker-4-Ounce/dp/B004XZGZP2

As for best place online to find stuff... hard to beat Ebay. People are selling NOS all the time (new old stock) for cheap prices. Usually you get free shipping too.

Finally... if there is something you need and just cant find it anywhere else, give Gunnies a try. They always have what I need. Say hi to Loke while you are there.

-DallanC


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Use the black sabot with that gun.
I use 100 gr. triple 7 and a 250 gr. SST and have it sighted in around 3.5" high at 100 to be dead on at 150 yards.


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## Tall Tines (Apr 16, 2017)

1st step: sell that gun.
2nd step: buy a CVA accura v2
3rd step: buy a vortex diamondback tactical scope 4-12x and a level bubble attachment 
4th step: buy mid height rings and a 20 MOA rail for the scope mount
5th step: buy the hornady sst .50 cal 250 gr sabots and triple 7 pellets
6th step: zero your gun in at 100 yards
7th step: enter all your ballistic info into the vortex ballistics calculator and print off your MOA drop chart and reticle hash mark chart 
8th step: verify the info to be correct by dialing in your scope and practicing at longer ranges 
9th step: go hunting and when you find your animal at 450 yards or less, dial in the scope get a good rest, squeeze the trigger and cut your tag.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Tall Tines said:


> 1st step: sell that gun.
> 2nd step: buy a CVA accura v2
> 3rd step: buy a vortex diamondback tactical scope 4-12x and a level bubble attachment
> 4th step: buy mid height rings and a 20 MOA rail for the scope mount
> ...


Meh... that doesn't sound nearly as fun as trying to sneak within 100 yards of a deer and kill it with a gun I bought for $100.

I do appreciate the input on the load, though.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Clarq, What twist is your barrel? My 1:32 shoots the maxi balls better than any saboted bullet. My 1:28 shoots pretty much anything.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Fowlmouth said:


> Clarq, What twist is your barrel? My 1:32 shoots the maxi balls better than any saboted bullet. My 1:28 shoots pretty much anything.


It's 1:28.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Tall Tines said:


> 1st step: sell that gun.
> 2nd step: buy a CVA accura v2
> 3rd step: buy a vortex diamondback tactical scope 4-12x and a level bubble attachment
> 4th step: buy mid height rings and a 20 MOA rail for the scope mount
> ...


Dude its a muzzleloader for crying out loud do you really think you need a 4-12 with a level? If you were really into getting the most from your rifle you shouldn't be shooting triple 7 pellets in the first place. Do you realize the drop and velocity loss at 450 yards with a 250 grain bullet out of a muzzy?

When the DWR changed the scope regs last year a lot of guys were worried about guys like you that think just because you have a 4-12 scope and can see 400 yard that you can now magically shoot 400 yards.

Here's some real world info for you. I'm pushing a .45 300 grain Hornady XTP out of the muzzle at almost 2000 fps, sighted in at 150 yards I have 91 inches of drop at 400 yard, 700 foot pounds of energy left and with a 5 mph 90 degree wind almost 2 feet of wind drift.


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## Tall Tines (Apr 16, 2017)

muddydogs said:


> Dude its a muzzleloader for crying out loud do you really think you need a 4-12 with a level? If you were really into getting the most from your rifle you shouldn't be shooting triple 7 pellets in the first place. Do you realize the drop and velocity loss at 450 yards with a 250 grain bullet out of a muzzy?
> 
> When the DWR changed the scope regs last year a lot of guys were worried about guys like you that think just because you have a 4-12 scope and can see 400 yard that you can now magically shoot 400 yards.
> 
> Here's some real world info for you. I'm pushing a .45 300 grain Hornady XTP out of the muzzle at almost 2000 fps, sighted in at 150 yards I have 91 inches of drop at 400 yard, 700 foot pounds of energy left and with a 5 mph 90 degree wind almost 2 feet of wind drift.


I tipped a buck over last year, 10 minutes into opening day at 393 yards. First shot. There are guys like me, who can shoot a muzzleloader that far. Guess you aren't one of them


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Tall Tines said:


> I tipped a buck over last year, 10 minutes into opening day at 393 yards. First shot. There are guys like me, who can shoot a muzzleloader that far. Guess you aren't one of them


Holy smokes, Karl has a brother.

-DallanC


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I will second what DallanC said, I know a lot of guys had problems getting full burn on pellets with #11 caps. I have a Knight MK85 in .54 cal and I shoot 90 grns of Triple 7 with .45 cal pistol bullets and I like the TC sabots the best.

I shoot 185 gr bullets for deer and 325 gr bullets for elk. I sight it in 3 inches high at 100 yards. Most of my kills were from 75 yards to 150 yards. My longest was 217 yards and the deer dropped in his tracks. That was pushing it but I had practiced out to 250 yards and I had a dead rest at 7:30 in the morning with no wind.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Tall Tines said:


> I tipped a buck over last year, 10 minutes into opening day at 393 yards. First shot. There are guys like me, who can shoot a muzzleloader that far. Guess you aren't one of them


I was up in Idaho with my brother on vacation. We stopped at a gas station, and I bought my first (and only) scratch ticket ever. I think I spent $2 and I won $12. Meanwhile, my brother dropped $30 and didn't win a thing.

Can't remember why I thought of that story, but I figured I'd share.

Thanks for the input, everyone.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Clarq said:


> I was up in Idaho with my brother on vacation. We stopped at a gas station, and I bought my first (and only) scratch ticket ever. I think I spent $2 and I won $12. Meanwhile, my brother dropped $30 and didn't win a thing.
> 
> Can't remember why I thought of that story, but I figured I'd share.
> 
> Thanks for the input, everyone.


Is it along the lines of every nut can find a squirrel or is that every squirrell can find a nut?


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Tall Tines said:


> I tipped a buck over last year, 10 minutes into opening day at 393 yards. First shot. There are guys like me, who can shoot a muzzleloader that far. Guess you aren't one of them


Well it was probably more like 150 with a missed judged distance and a little cool factor added in would be my guess.

Guys like me don't need to take 393 yard shots with a muzzy or any rifle at big game. Don't mean I can't just means I don't. I don't get all pumped up and need to walk around saying look at me I took an animal at whatever distance thinking it makes me look cool.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

a good brass Range Rod is a must IMO


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Nipple pick is a must have item. Those #11's love to smash into the small nipple hole for some reason.
Pipe cleaners work well for cleaning the nipple and breach plug too.
IMO bore butter is another good thing to wipe in the barrel after cleaning with solvents.


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## hondodawg (Mar 13, 2013)

If you stay with a #11 I suggest using RWS caps. They can be found at most sportsmans. I switched from a #11 to a musket cap on my Whites with 777 powder. I have never had a bad cap with the RWS brand cap. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

An overlooked item that is useful for cleaning out the small holes is a https://www.amazon.com/US-Forge-Welding-Cleaner-00802/dp/B000UVR0NO. Lowes and the like carry them, they come in handy for cleaning nipple holes or breach plug holes.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

It sounds like you're on the right track. One thing I'd recommend you look into would be a Spinjag. It's just what it sounds like - a jag that spins with the bullet as it goes down your barrel to avoid marring it. I love mine. It makes both loading and cleaning a breeze.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Tall Tines said:


> I tipped a buck over last year, 10 minutes into opening day at 393 yards. First shot. There are guys like me, who can shoot a muzzleloader that far. Guess you aren't one of them


Hahaha.. Now I know it's shaun.

So much ego... maybe the concept of a "primitive" hunt is lost on you, but it isn't lost on everyone.

As for the OP, one thing I have found useful is having a few extra parts in my muzzleloader arsenal (let's be honest, it's a tackle box)... I have the original sights, some extra screws, O-rings for my plug, etc.. With primitive weapons its always nice to be prepared for anything.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Clarq said:


> That being said, how does a 240 grain Barnes Spit-fire T-EZ sabot with 100 grains of pyrodex (pellets) sound?


Great choice on the Barnes Spit-fire T-EZ, that'll be a great bullet, as long as it shoots well in your muzzy. However, you might want to reconsider the Pyrodex pellets. They are convenient, but will fill your barrel with crud and you'll need to clean the barrel after every couple shots, or accuracy will diminish and it'll be difficult to seat the bullet.

I used Pyrodex for several years, then switched to Blackhorn 209 a couple years ago, and will never go back. _Much_ easier to clean, and you can go more shots between cleanings. Plus, loose powder is more flexible, as you can try out different powder charges. When working up a load I tried 90gr, 100gr, and 110gr of Blackhorn 209, and found tighter groups with 90gr.

Blackhorn seems to dissapear from the shelves in September, so if you go that route, pick up a couple cans soon. Additionally, you might need a special Blackhorn breech plug, and shotshell primers (rather than standard muzzy primers).


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

brisket said:


> Great choice on the Barnes Spit-fire T-EZ, that'll be a great bullet, as long as it shoots well in your muzzy. However, you might want to reconsider the Pyrodex pellets. They are convenient, but will fill your barrel with crud and you'll need to clean the barrel after every couple shots, or accuracy will diminish and it'll be difficult to seat the bullet.
> 
> I used Pyrodex for several years, then switched to Blackhorn 209 a couple years ago, and will never go back. _Much_ easier to clean, and you can go more shots between cleanings. Plus, loose powder is more flexible, as you can try out different powder charges. When working up a load I tried 90gr, 100gr, and 110gr of Blackhorn 209, and found tighter groups with 90gr.
> 
> Blackhorn seems to dissapear from the shelves in September, so if you go that route, pick up a couple cans soon. Additionally, you might need a special Blackhorn breech plug, and shotshell primers (rather than standard muzzy primers).


x2 on the Blackhorn 209, although as the name implies, it requires a standard 209 shotgun shell primer. Not sure if that will work with OP's gun since it sounds like he has a different ignition system.

I bought my muzzleloader and a bunch of supplies when I was 18 and didn't really know much. I started out with Pyrodex pellets and Powerbelt bullets. This setup worked okay but after the first shot or two, I basically had to punch a hole through my palm to get the stupid bullet to move down. I've pretty well retired that setup now.

I've only been out once since I bought stuff for my new setup, but I was completely blown away with how my gun performed. I'm now using 100 grains of Blackhorn 209 and 300gr Hornady SST sabots. I shot about a 3/4" group at 100 yards with it the first time I took it out.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

The big problem with BH209 is the rifle has to have a closed, supported breech. You cannot shoot BH209 in anything with an exposed cap due to the pressure. I've long since been kicking around doing the conversion kit to my Rem700ML just to aid with cleaning. It would allow me to use BH209... but as I've stated too many times, Pyrodex is just too accurate in that gun to really want to mess with changing anything.


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I keep trying to use Bh209 in my inline ML whenever I change bullets or try new ones. I keep on coming back to Pyrodex. I just can't get it to soot as good as the Pyrodex does with either the Barnes TMZ's or the Thor bullets that I like to shoot.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Yup, I ran into the same thing when 777 came out, everyone was posting glowing reviews of it... I went a bought a can, found it absolutely to be terrible with respect to accuracy. In the middle of load development I went back to a test group of pyro, had a nice cloverleaf group in the middle of a target with random 777 hits scattered about. I gave up right then and stuck it on the shelf.

I finally was able to give away the can to Packout... I think he said it sucked too (IIRC, he said apparently the pellets shoot better for him than loose?).

I'm old enough I'm tired of chasing the latest "thing"... If it works, I'll keep using it. I just bought 250 of my favorite sabots... enough to last me probably the remainder of my hunting career. Just on the odd chance they ever got discontinued and I needed more.


-DallanC


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Clarq said:


> Meh... that doesn't sound nearly as fun as trying to sneak within 100 yards of a deer and kill it with a gun I bought for $100.
> 
> I do appreciate the input on the load, though.


Keep it . super accurate ,You can buy conversion bolt kit for about 50.00 to shoot 209 disks which will keep your breech a lot cleaner. At least buy a regular 209 breech plug for it. 240 XTP Hornady, 3 Pirodex pellets, 209 Remington clean bore .


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Thanks for the input, everyone. I bought my supplies and finally got around to disassembly this morning (was planning on shooting it today, and wanted to make sure I understood it well) when I discovered one small problem. Apparently I'm missing some sort of special Knight "combo tool" I need to remove the nipple and breech plug for cleaning. I looked online and it looks like they want $49 for it.

https://www.knightrifles.com/product/knight-combo-tool-9-75-inch-slotted-head/

Yikes. I'm not finding any other options on the internet either.

I fiddled around with it a bit, but I don't think I have a tool I can use to remove it without risking breaking something. I'll probably have to raid my dad's tools and see what I can come up with. Anyone ever dealt with this before? Tips? I can maybe post some pictures later...

At this point, I'm halfway tempted to buy the 209 conversion kit (with an included combo tool ) for $76. I'd sooner do that than pay $49 for a single tool.

https://www.knightrifles.com/product/209-primer-ignition-50-cal-muzzleloader-conversion-kit/

If I do that, I'll probably have some pyrodex for sale in a bit. -O,- Stay tuned.


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