# Can't Go to Utah State Parks Unless you live in the same couty



## Kbx (Mar 27, 2016)

This was upsetting hearing about this tonight. It drastically reduces the amount of options and bodies of water since you are no longer allowed to visit state parks outside of the county you reside in. Any guesses on how long this will last? Will Utah reimburse boat registrations if it extend for a significant period of time?

https://coronavirus.utah.gov/full-text-governors-stay-home-stay-safe-directive/


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

You wont see any reimbursement I'm sure. The State isn't in the business of "giving money back". 


I'm not a negative nelly, or trying to create panic but, I don't see any of us going back to the way of life before the virus broke out for at least 3 months at the soonest. I prey I'm wrong!


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

Kbx said:


> Any guesses on how long this will last? It will last until April 13, 202 at 11:59 PM, unless it is extended before that time.
> 
> *Will Utah reimburse boat registrations* if it extend for a significant period of time?
> 
> ...


Bodies of water OTHER than State Parks are still open to fishing.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

At least you get to go hit the water in the county you live in. I can't even do that...


----------



## OverTheEdge (Sep 12, 2013)

Maybe they could at least give current park pass holders a discount on next years pass based on the number of months Parks were closed. Would be pretty easy to do. Just present your current pass at the time of renewal and get some sort of predetermined discount for the number of months you couldn't use the parks. Maybe I'm dreaming, but seems like a fair and easy way of doing it.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

My guess is most states will start to lighten up on the outdoor restrictions in another month. Warm weather is going to make a lot of people want to go out and do something, colder weather makes you stay in more keeping the chances of contamination high. UV light kills this bug and fresh air won't do anyone any harm. Only so much yard work you can do, unless you're my backyard neighbor anyway...


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

dubob said:


> Bodies of water OTHER than State Parks are still open to fishing.


And to be clear, different portions of the same body of water are still open to out of county residents. Launch at Lincoln Beach and you're fine at Utah Lake as a non-Utah County resident. Just don't launch at the state park. (Just as an example)


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

Look at this way; instead of thinking -"I can't fish any State Parks" - start thinking - "I can fish ANY Utah water except a State Park." Be positive, not negative, about your options. Life is always better that way. :grin:

And yes, Utah Lake is 99.99% open to fishing. There is only an acre or two of the lake that you can't fish immediately adjacent to the land portion of Utah Lake State Park. Most, if not all, Federal lakes are still open. Rivers are still open. Community ponds are open unless a community/local government agency has closed them.

It ain't the end of the world folks.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

OverTheEdge said:


> Maybe they could at least give current park pass holders a discount on next years pass based on the number of months Parks were closed.












You can't possibly be serious. Utah? Offer a discount? Now that's funny, right there.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Can someone smarter than me chime in if this poorly made and uneducated decision is even within the Constitution of the United States of (previously known as a free country) America?


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

shaner said:


> Can someone smarter than me chime in if this poorly made and uneducated decision is even within the Constitution of the United States of (previously known as a free country) America?


What provision of the US constitution is implicated here? Which right is being violated by the state?


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

The right to peaceably assemble?

And why do we concentrate usage to non affected waters? Just asking for a friend.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

middlefork said:


> The right to peaceably assemble?


Nah. No right is absolute, and time, place and manner restrictions have been a part of the 1st Amendment for many, many moons.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Vanilla,
My question is:
Does not being able to freely travel to property I own violate any of my Constitutional rights?


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Man, this is the worst. Unless you have to watch your parents or grandparents drown on air. That feels like it might be worse.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

shaner said:


> Vanilla,
> My question is:
> Does not being able to freely travel to property I own violate any of my Constitutional rights?


I'm not sure which directive prevents you from freely traveling to property you own?

However, the government has more broad powers during times of emergency. So in extreme circumstances, travel restrictions would be upheld as constitutional if there is a rational basis for them. I think the current circumstances would provide a rational basis for travel restrictions. But depending on where you live vs where your property is, I'm not sure there is a travel restriction in place.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

shaner said:


> Vanilla,
> My question is:
> Does not being able to freely travel to property I own violate any of my Constitutional rights?


I haven't checked all of the County Health Orders, but those that I have read all say the same thing; you are free to travel through the county. But staying in the county if you are NOT a resident of that county is restricted or forbidden. I would guess from your description that the property you own and want to travel to is not your residence property. So the question to be answered for you would be does the county in which your non-residence property is located restrict non-residents from staying in that county. The two I'm aware of at this time that do that are Summit and San Juan. There may be others. And I'm also of the opinion that these Health Orders do not violate any constitutional authority - State or Federal. But none of the orders have been challenged in court to the best of my limited knowledge; not do I expect them to be challenged.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Well if nothing else it is a good excuse to not mow the lawn. After all you have to stay inside. Wouldn't want to spread those germs over the backyard fence.


----------



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

shaner said:


> Vanilla,
> My question is:
> Does not being able to freely travel to property I own violate any of my Constitutional rights?


That is a pretty good question, if your residence is in one county but you own a mountain cabin in another county, can you go to your cabin to self isolate?

For instance, owning property in another county doesn't give you the right to vote in that county but paying taxes to said county should give you some rights.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

I own Strawberry, as do you and everyone on this forum.
All of us also own a share in every State Park.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

shaner said:


> I own Strawberry, as do you and everyone on this forum.
> All of us also own a share in every State Park.


That is incorrect. Ownership of public land is constitutionally uncertain because of many attempts by the SCOTUS to redefine the Constitution and to legislate from the bench under the guise of interpretation. By rights, the "Federal" lands within the boundaries of any of the 50 states is 'owned' by the state that contains the land. What we own as individuals is a 'right' to visit those lands at any time under normal conditions. It is highly unlikely that anybody would deem our current health crisis as normal.

As I said, SCOTUS has messed up the Constitution such that the Founding Fathers intent that Public lands will be owned by, and controlled by, the individual states, is no longer clear.

The bottom line here is that individual citizens - either singly or as a group - do NOT own public lands. But we DO have the right to use them - most of the time. You can continue to hold on to that misguided belief that you are a part 'owner' of public lands, but it is a false assumption.

No disrespect implied or intended.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Fair enough Bob, in my first post I admitted I did not know the answer and needed help from someone smarter than me.
I am not offended by your answer and appreciate your remarks.
In retrospect, I should have said you/me/everyone on this forum owns the right to visit the State Parks in or out of our County of residence.
It is a Right of being a tax paying citizen.
My boat taxes are paid.
My truck taxes are paid.
I have a current State Parks use pass in my possession.
I have a current fishing license from Utah State.
I have paid a hefty tax on the fuel I will consume.
I am a law aboding citizen and I have now been stripped of my Rights( my opinion).
Now, If I was planning to go to the Cisco Disco or Free Fishing Day I understand being told ‘No’. That would be a gathering of people and would make it impossible to distance properly.
But, when I fish Deer Creek I am first or second through the gate and might see two or three people at the docks and am 100’ feet away.
I am a loner by nature and would rather avoid groups anyway.
What I still want to know is if my Constitutional Rights to travel to a public area have been violated?


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Bob is correct in that we are not owners of the public land. I know BHA made those cute t-shirts that said "Public Land Owner," but that didn't make it true that we owned it.

This can get super technical and legal geeky, but in it's most basic form, the government (federal, state, or local) owns the lands, to be held in trust for the people. I am not a 1/327.2 millionth owner of plot X in the national forest. 

And Strawberry is not all a state park.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Not once did I say Strawberry was a State Park.
I wish you would fight for State Park access like you fight for small stream access.....


----------



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I thought that this was what shaner was getting at when he said "we all own it".

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

And what Lincoln said at Gettysburg: ,,,,"the nation, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that* government of the people by the people for the people*, shall not perish from the earth."


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

shaner said:


> Not once did I say Strawberry was a State Park.
> I wish you would fight for State Park access like you fight for small stream access.....


Seems like a bit of a cheap shot for someone that is just trying to answer what you are claiming are just simple questions. These are just simple answers to those simple questions.

And my point about Strawberry not being entirely a state park is to say: GO FISH IT! But I guess if you make assumptions about what others think and how they feel, it's easier to just take cheap shots.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

And now it is an order. State parks will be checking ID to make sure you are not where you are not welcome.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

middlefork said:


> And now it is an order. State parks will be checking ID to make sure you are not where you are not welcome.


Such BS. It should either be open to all or closed to all. Open only to "some" based only on their origin, is discrimination.

-DallanC


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

DallanC said:


> middlefork said:
> 
> 
> > And now it is an order. State parks will be checking ID to make sure you are not where you are not welcome.
> ...


Not all discrimination is illegal or problematic. We discriminate all the time. And in this case the state government isn't being subtle in how it's escalating it's response.

Whether we like it or not our county is one of the principle areas we define residency. That restriction will become more granular over time. The more people stay at home or in the home areas (neighborhoods, cities, counties) the less the spread of the disease expands into new areas.

I don't care how many people I offend. The message is clear.

STAY HOME! Don't travel to other areas to recreate. Walk, run, hike, fish and hunt in your own home areas until we get past this initial hurdle.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Vanilla,
I did fish Strawberry yesterday and had a blast, thank you!
I don’t consider my comment a cheap shop and you have yet to weigh in on if my constitutional travel/access rights are being raped away from me?
I applaud your efforts to keep access to small streams because you believe they are owned by ‘us’.
Maybe I misunderstood your original intent but I felt you were okay with certain State Parks being off limits to ‘outsiders’?
If I am wrong about that impression I do apologize to you and I wish you the best.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The problem that I see with them checking your ID as you go through the gate is that now they are actually going to have to have someone sitting there to check your ID. 

I couldn't even begin to tell you how many times I have driven through their gates with no one in sight much less someone in the shack.


----------



## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Critter said:


> The problem that I see with them checking your ID as you go through the gate is that now they are actually going to have to have someone sitting there to check your ID.
> 
> I couldn't even begin to tell you how many times I have driven through their gates with no one in sight much less someone in the shack.


Good point. You'd think that would break the social distancing protocol, handing ID's back and forth.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

shaner said:


> Vanilla,
> I did fish Strawberry yesterday and had a blast, thank you!
> I don't consider my comment a cheap shop and you have yet to weigh in on if my constitutional travel/access rights are being raped away from me


Check post #16. I thought I answered the question.



shaner said:


> Maybe I misunderstood your original intent but I felt you were okay with certain State Parks being off limits to 'outsiders'?
> If I am wrong about that impression I do apologize to you and I wish you the best.


I'm not okay with how they've handled state parks across the board. It should not depend upon which county you reside. If they're concerned enough to limit visitation, close them entirely. It should be equal for everyone. Open for all, or closed for all. That's been my position from the first message from SE Utah to stay away.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

And I believe they should be open for all with zero talk of closing a single one of them to anybody, it is our right to visit them.
I tip my hat to the Feds for not closing Powell, in fact they removed entrance fees to help us in a time of need.
Also, I praise the Feds for not closing the Gorge.
The Little Sahara sand dunes, I’m still scratching my head over that closure....
Thank you for the excellent conversation.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

dang. 

I guess if I want to visit the Frontier Homestead State Park (Iron Mission), I'm in luck!


But I'm out of luck for any other State Parks. Being the eternal optimist that I am, I can still look forward to going to Minersville (Beaver Co.), because it really isn't a State Park!


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

PBH said:


> Being the eternal optimist that I am, I can still look forward to going to Minersville (Beaver Co.), because it really isn't a State Park!


Unless the folks in Beaver county decide they don't want the riffraff from Cedar hanging around their pond.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I'm waiting for Piute County to have that light-bulb come on and say: "hey, now's our chance to take over for good!"



cattle grazing free-for-all....


----------



## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Hey !!!!
I'm from Cedar, and I resemble that remark.


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

"raped" is a highly inappropriate word. It's only a few weeks, maybe a month and a half. Not a big deal.

Look, they're loading bodies with forklifts in New York right now. There's refrigerated trucks in the street collecting the dead. We probably won't see anything nearly like that but it's serious and there's going to be some needed restrictions. My bet is that 2-3 weeks from now you will have completely forgotten this issue because there will be more important things at hand.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I just saw this for Montana.

https://www.safariclub.org/blog/mon...self-quarantine-outfitting-services-suspended


----------



## CrayDad (Feb 20, 2020)

Since Strawberry res is not an option right now does anyone recommend Fish Lake or Electric Lake? Never been to either but I'm not sure if the roads are clear this time of year.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Jedidiah, not sure how your mind works but a definition of rape is:
‘An outrageous violation’.
That is how I feel about my Rights now.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

shaner said:


> Jedidiah, not sure how your mind works but a definition of rape is:
> 'An outrageous violation'.
> That is how I feel about my Rights now.


I really think you have a misunderstanding about what "rights" you truly have. That is probably the biggest cause of your frustrations right now. A better understanding about what is a "right" and what isn't would alleviate a lot of angst.


----------



## WhiskeyLens (Oct 12, 2018)

dubob said:


> Look at this way; instead of thinking -"I can't fish any State Parks" - start thinking - "I can fish ANY Utah water except a State Park." Be positive, not negative, about your options. Life is always better that way. :grin:
> 
> And yes, Utah Lake is 99.99% open to fishing. There is only an acre or two of the lake that you can't fish immediately adjacent to the land portion of Utah Lake State Park. Most, if not all, Federal lakes are still open. Rivers are still open. Community ponds are open unless a community/local government agency has closed them.
> 
> It ain't the end of the world folks.


Please excuse this somewhat of a dumb question, I feel like you guys already answered this but I would rather ask a dumb question and be clear than be fined. I live in Utah County and fly fish the Provo. I know the boundary line for Utah county is the tunnels up Provo canyon. Am I limited to only that lower half of river? Can I fish up by say the middle Provo outside of Heber? Is this lockout only limited to State Parks? The provo river isn't a state park I don't believe but it does have state parks periodically about. Thank you for any help you are anyone may be able to provide, appreciate it!


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Vanilla,
Maybe.
I just enjoy a spirited conversation as I sort through my feelings.
I have been doing the same as you in the last month:
Extra friendly to store clerks.
Extra waves to everybody.
Extra phone calls to family/friends.
Phone calls to people in my neighborhood I wouldn’t normally call to offer any assistance I might be able to provide.
Extra courtesy to people in traffic.
Up until three days ago I’ve been taking people I know who were stressed out to go shoot and fish.
I’ve been helping people fix their sprinklers at no charge so they could garden earlier than normal.
I’ve been giving away shop supplies so people could tinker on their mechanical equipment for stress relief.
Etc.
I don’t plan to stop being so friendly and in fact I’m going to ramp it up more.
I will admit to one grudge I will not let go of though.
When things go back to normal I will remember the counties that only wanted me when times were good. My wallet will stay closed as much as possible. I am frugal and will go to the trouble to pack full fuel containers and an extra cooler of food bought in my hometown at stores that welcomed me when times were bad.
Counties in Utah should share the same wedding vows as husband and wife, ‘stay together through good times and bad’.
I am very lucky that I was able to retire last fall at age 51.
This was supposed to be the ‘Year of Shane’ and it is frustrating to have my summer start off so crappy with the travel restrictions.
I live in Riverton and my walleye boat loves to be in Deer Creek, Willard Bay, and Starvation.
What do all three of these lakes have in common? No private boat ramps, State ramps only...
And now, the Guv wants me to stay on my little half acre.
Anyways, I’ve probably bored you all to death with my personal problems but I want to leave on a positive note:
Only six months till waterfowl season, and my puppy ‘Bolt’ will turn one next week.
I rescued him at six months old and have spent a lot of time with him.
Thanks to him I did not lose a single pheasant or duck in ‘19.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

shaner said:


> I will admit to one grudge I will not let go of though.
> When things go back to normal I will remember the counties that only wanted me when times were good. My wallet will stay closed as much as possible. I am frugal and will go to the trouble to pack full fuel containers and an extra cooler of food bought in my hometown at stores that welcomed me when times were bad.
> Counties in Utah should share the same wedding vows as husband and wife, 'stay together through good times and bad'.


Trust me shaner, you and I don't disagree on this topic! I think the notion of "We will continue to go out and enjoy these public lands ourselves, but you guys have to stay away" is a very dangerous precedent. I said that from day one when this issue arose.

If the situation truly calls for people to "stay home," it should apply to all equally. Once we start deciding who is worthy to utilize public resources and who is not based upon zip code, we're playing a dangerous game. This game of "ours and yours" won't work out for anyone. I said that on the early thread on this topic, and I still feel that way.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PS- way to go on the pooch! Nothing like bird hunting with a fine dog that is a member of the family.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> shaner said:
> 
> 
> > I will admit to one grudge I will not let go of though.
> ...


It's not a game. It's not about "ours or yours". It's a very serious choice to slow the spread of the most dangerous pandemic of our lifetimes or last century. Health Departments and governments are charged with the difficult task of doing what's in their means to protect their citizens from this unfortunate outbreak.

These measures are temporary and targeted at stopping the spread. It's not about who is worthy; it's about recognizing people traveling in and out of their home areas pose a unique risk to citizens of the county or health district.

We can disagree on the merits of how they rolled out these orders but that doesn't mean these counties are sincerely trying to stop the spread of Covid-19. I myself am not sure how they will enforce such closures to citizens outside their counties but I recognize these professionals are trying their best, even if imperfectly.

Shaner, I'm sorry this overlapped with your first year of retirement. That sucks. You obviously have the freedom to boycott counties based upon these measures. But we can choose to see this as us being locked out or we can choose to see this as an opportunity to protect our fellow citizens to the fullest extent possible. This will be temporary and we will get back to recreating on public lands. But we get to know we are safe and keeping others safe by staying home. It's the only way we know we prevented spread.


----------



## WhiskeyLens (Oct 12, 2018)

Still learning this forum, probably should have posted it in a separate thread. Sorry for the double post:

Please excuse this somewhat of a dumb question, I feel like you guys already answered this but I would rather ask a dumb question and be clear than be fined. I live in Utah County and fly fish the Provo. I know the boundary line for Utah county is the tunnels up Provo canyon. Am I limited to only that lower half of river? Can I fish up by say the middle Provo outside of Heber? Is this lockout only limited to State Parks? The provo river isn't a state park I don't believe but it does have state parks periodically about. Thank you for any help you are anyone may be able to provide, appreciate it!


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

WhiskeyLens said:


> Still learning this forum, probably should have posted it in a separate thread. Sorry for the double post:
> 
> Please excuse this somewhat of a dumb question, I feel like you guys already answered this but I would rather ask a dumb question and be clear than be fined. I live in Utah County and fly fish the Provo. I know the boundary line for Utah county is the tunnels up Provo canyon. Am I limited to only that lower half of river? Can I fish up by say the middle Provo outside of Heber? Is this lockout only limited to State Parks? The provo river isn't a state park I don't believe but it does have state parks periodically about. Thank you for any help you are anyone may be able to provide, appreciate it!


Go for it. Enjoy! Oh and post up some pictures. For your own protection I would not go outside Utah county or you risk the wrath of god.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)




----------



## CrayDad (Feb 20, 2020)

WhiskeyLens said:


> Still learning this forum, probably should have posted it in a separate thread. Sorry for the double post:
> 
> Please excuse this somewhat of a dumb question, I feel like you guys already answered this but I would rather ask a dumb question and be clear than be fined. I live in Utah County and fly fish the Provo. I know the boundary line for Utah county is the tunnels up Provo canyon. Am I limited to only that lower half of river? Can I fish up by say the middle Provo outside of Heber? Is this lockout only limited to State Parks? The provo river isn't a state park I don't believe but it does have state parks periodically about. Thank you for any help you are anyone may be able to provide, appreciate it!


The state only mentioned State Parks but Wasatch county for example recently banned all non-residents from setting foot.

You'd probably have to check with each county before adventuring out...


----------



## utskidad (Apr 6, 2013)

Equal Protection. We all must be treated the same in the eyes of the law. I live 2 miles from a State Park and cannot legally go their. Somebody who lives 12 miles away may. 

Also, all limitations on liberty must pass a rational review test. The reasoning for the limitation must pass a very low level of rationality. This one does not. I can go to a State liquor store, but I can't go to a State Park? Someone 12 miles away can go, but i, at 2 miles, can't.


----------



## utskidad (Apr 6, 2013)

And don't expect this to end anytime soon. The big Counties have figured out, they get free money for confining their own citizens: 


"The county's emergency declaration extension, beyond the initial April 13 expiration date, enables Salt Lake County to continue to apply for federal emergency funds to be reimbursed for COVID-19 response efforts."

https://www.ksl.com/article/46739320/salt-lake-county-extends-covid-19-emergency-declaration-for-federal-funds-into-july?fbclid=IwAR1kg3coB20TmSVeIrwNIAD3Dctrvd-J-0f6YDsQJ9qj_yTrOe0TAbTwhBc


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

utskidad said:


> And don't expect this to end anytime soon. The big Counties have figured out, they get free money for confining their own citizens:
> 
> "The county's emergency declaration extension, beyond the initial April 13 expiration date, enables Salt Lake County to continue to apply for federal emergency funds to be reimbursed for COVID-19 response efforts."
> 
> https://www.ksl.com/article/4673932...VeIrwNIAD3Dctrvd-J-0f6YDsQJ9qj_yTrOe0TAbTwhBc


Nope. The emergency declaration is inherently and legally different than the health orders regarding sheltering in place. The state gets federal monies for the emergency declaration and it's not contingent on the health order in any fashion.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

add Kane County to the list of closed counties:
https://kane.utah.gov/gov/dept/sher...ion-covid-19-restriction-ordinance-o-2020-10/


----------

