# Public Lands



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

My wife, daughter and I went to Chaffetz's town hall tonight. They moved it from the Cottonwood Heights City Hall to the auditorium at Brighton High because they expected a larger than normal turnout. We arrived shortly before the appointed time of 7:00PM, but couldn't get inside. The place was packed, they closed the doors at 6:30. Brighton High has 2500 kids. Not sure what the auditorium holds, but it should be lots. There were at least 2000 people outside, many of whom were chanting, "Keep Your Hands Off Our Lands". 

Heartening to see the turnout. Street parking was full for blocks around the school, people were engaged, excited and generally p*ssed off at the lack of responsiveness of our congressional delegation. Time to stand up and be heard, gentlemen. Let Bishop, Love, Stewart, Chaffetz, Lee and Hatch we're watching.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I watched part of the meeting. It was a little beyond my liking of things but I agree. Utahns and especially sportsmen need to keep involved and let our politicians realize they answer to us. Be heard, but be respectful.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4896676-155/watch-utahns-instigate-while-chaffetz-rebuffs


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

The screaming and yelling is beyond reprehensible. The lunatics on the left are acting like spoiled brats. When you are incapable of having a civil discourse to discuss your differences you show your true colors. They are too damned stupid to realize that they're turning people away from them rather than bringing people to their viewpoints.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/22-everything-else/170090-jason-chaffetz-town-hall-feb-9th.html


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

I was told there was a group there chanting Black lives matter?


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Based on the 10 PM news report, it appeared that the meeting was packed and dominated by folks from the "far left", with their accompanying chants and noise, and public lands issues weren't even a significant part of the discussion.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Catherder said:


> Based on the 10 PM news report, it appeared that the meeting was packed and dominated by folks from the "far left", with their accompanying chants and noise, and public lands issues weren't even a significant part of the discussion.


Honestly I'm okay with it at this point. I would rather this issue was not wrapped up with those people in a big way. I saw a few people wearing orange on the live feed sitting there being civil. Sad part is, they may have won him re-election with the way they acted.


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## swampfox (Dec 30, 2014)

I made it inside, and the first maybe 15 minutes or so were about public land issues. He will not be backing down from 622, and when he was specifically asked about why he voted against the BLM Planning Rule 2.0, he deflected and did not answer. I don't think he is a friend of sportsmen at all. I can confirm that the meeting was packed and that it was certainly a left-leaning group. I never heard any black lives matter chants, just chants of "do your job", "let them in" (when there were a bunch of seats available in the back and the fire marshall wouldn't let anyone else in), and chants about public lands outside the building. It was frustrating that there was so much yelling so that it made it difficult to have an actual discussion/argument. But before we disparage the left too much, there were some very good public lands questions brought up by non-hunting outdoor recreation users (particularly by one guy who was a river guide and happened to run in to Chaffetz on the river last summer and had a good long chat with him then), and we are really going to need those left-leaning recreation users if this public lands fight continues to advance.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Honestly I'm okay with it at this point. I would rather this issue was not wrapped up with those people in a big way. I saw a few people wearing orange on the live feed sitting there being civil. Sad part is, they may have won him re-election with the way they acted.


Now maybe you understand my frustration on the other thread. Things are becoming flat out ridiculous. People need to figure it out.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

swampfox said:


> I made it inside, and the first maybe 15 minutes or so were about public land issues. He will not be backing down from 622, and when he was specifically asked about why he voted against the BLM Planning Rule 2.0, he deflected and did not answer. I don't think he is a friend of sportsmen at all. I can confirm that the meeting was packed and that it was certainly a left-leaning group. I never heard any black lives matter chants, just chants of "do your job", "let them in" (when there were a bunch of seats available in the back and the fire marshall wouldn't let anyone else in), and chants about public lands outside the building. It was frustrating that there was so much yelling so that it made it difficult to have an actual discussion/argument. But before we disparage the left too much, there were some very good public lands questions brought up by non-hunting outdoor recreation users (particularly by one guy who was a river guide and happened to run in to Chaffetz on the river last summer and had a good long chat with him then), and we are really going to need those left-leaning recreation users if this public lands fight continues to advance.


I agree we need them in this fight, but we also need them to act civil so we are able to convey our points properly. Truth is Chaffetz doesn't care about the people who despise him, he cares about the people that are republican that have voted for him and are upset. I really hope HR 622 can be stopped, it is just a further attack and dismantlement of our public land agencies. The only encouraging things I heard during the HR 622 discussion was people saying "fund them" in response to him saying they don't have proper resources. Well funding them so they do would be a great start.

As for Planning 2.0, after reading comments by the rep. from Wyoming that introduced this bill it is obvious they have no good answer. The answer is they don't want the BLM process to work and like it broken so they can complain about it and move toward transfer. The rep. who introduced the bill basically said the general public should not have a say in land use practices or planning at an equal level to industry and livestock users who operate on the land. That was a terrible answer IMO. I thought that's what we wanted was more involvement? Better planning strategies? And an easier process? Truth is they are going to kill Planning 2.0 for no reason other than they don't want the BLM to work properly. They are intentionally breaking these agencies to further their argument of mismanagement and the need to transfer these lands.

I really truly hope Trump Jr. or Trump will hear the concerns of sportsmen and veto some of the legislation that will likely cross his desk. None of the bills being proposed or passed do anything but undermine our public lands, the agencies that manage them, and the public in general. The left needs to quite shouting and be reasonable. Not everything the GOP does is wrong, and screaming bloody murder over everything just hurts every cause.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm just so darn disgusted with our local Utah elected officials nowadays. They certainly don't care about our public lands (except as far as what they can be sold for), last week they refused to even allow a vote on putting an emphasis on leasing our state lands instead of selling them off, they are gung-ho for oil and gas interests, but when fishermen want access to public waters they quickly go around the Supreme Court to make their own laws to keep fishers out. The list is very long...
R


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## swampfox (Dec 30, 2014)

I absolutely agree 1-I, I guess I just didn't feel like most of the anger came from the recreation users. It came mostly from everybody else mad at Trump, mad about Education/DeVos, or mad about whatever else the right is doing. I guess I didn't really feel like OR folks were the ones not being civil. The question from the river guide was excellent and pointed, and he acted with respect while still expressing his frustration. Public lands were a pretty small part of the discussion/shouting match, and it seemed like most people there wanted to discuss other issues because we moved on pretty quick. Outside of my wife and myself, there only appeared to be one other obvious outdoor recreation user in my entire section. There did appear to be a good contingent of outdoor folks up front though. I do agree that the whole thing was out of hand and likely didn't accomplish much due to the emotion in there. If anything it probably just strengthened chaffetz, as I'm sure he knows most of those people aren't in his district anyway.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Now maybe you understand my frustration on the other thread. Things are becoming flat out ridiculous. People need to figure it out.


This is absolutely true. Screaming, yelling, burning starbucks, etc. are not conducive to actual discourse and do nothing but further entrench people on either side of no-man's land.

I need to do a better job in not allowing myself to become so myopic that I'm not acknowledging positive steps taken by those who are on the opposite side of the public land issue.

That doesn't mean you can't be skeptical or critical about the future intentions of politicians and organizations. But it really is important to acknowledge and let these opponents know when they've done something right.

Hopefully that further encourages them to evolve their stances down the road instead of saying "nothing I do is ever going to satisfy these people, so screw it, I'm just gonna do what I want."


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Here's the thing. I have written to Chaffetz multiple times. He feels secure in his office in that he thinks he will be reelected for as long as he chooses to run. He is no friend of outdoorsmen. Quite the contrary. He was trying to say the PLI was a collaborative effort, when it clearly favored development and extraction. Bears Ears is just one issue. I wrote him another email last night talking about many issues. Here's what I said about the monument:

*Leave our public lands alone. They are federal. Period! If I recall correctly after reading several biographies of Theodore Roosevelt, his designation of the Grand Canyon National Monument was met with considerable local pushback by local developers who wished to despoil it for profit. His employment of the Antiquities Act seemed to have worked out pretty well.*

I also criticized him for not investigating Trump's obvious conflicts of interests; his violation of the emoluments clause, his violation the lease agreement for his DC hotel, his own failure to investigate the Russian hack of our elections, etc. He is no friend of Utahns or anyone interested in transparency in government, civil rights, conservation, etc, etc, etc. He needs to be replaced. Some of you may think that's a far left view, and that the raucous crowd actually helped him. I disagree. Chaffetz is a lost cause, an arrogant far right political hack. He does not represent the interests of hunters or fishermen. Voting for him is a vote against public lands. Believe me.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

rjefre said:


> I'm just so darn disgusted with our local Utah elected officials nowadays. They certainly don't care about our public lands (except as far as what they can be sold for), last week they refused to even allow a vote on putting an emphasis on leasing our state lands instead of selling them off, they are gung-ho for oil and gas interests, but when fishermen want access to public waters they quickly go around the Supreme Court to make their own laws to keep fishers out. The list is very long...
> R


Welcome to politics all over the US. Why do you think my cousin, the only 4 term governor in Louisiana history finally ended up in Federal Prison...I can honestly say I've never met an honest politician yet, and I've known quite a few on a personal basis, including some now in the Utah legislature.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

swampfox said:


> I made it inside, and the first maybe 15 minutes or so were about public land issues...........but before we disparage the left too much, there were some very good public lands questions brought up by non-hunting outdoor recreation users (particularly by one guy who was a river guide and happened to run in to Chaffetz on the river last summer and had a good long chat with him then), and we are really going to need those left-leaning recreation users if this public lands fight continues to advance.


It is good to hear that public lands questions were discussed. Channel 2 just showed the chanting and shrieking, and only discussed the "Trump" issues.

I like your comments about the "other" recreation users. The reason I have a bit more optimism long term on the public lands battle is that opposition to the issue attracts users/enthusiasts from both sides of the aisle, so to speak. An effective coalition can be made to support public lands if both the granola types and the right leaning hunters can look past other differences and fight together.

One last thing. What the heck was Chaffetz thinking in having that meeting in Salt Lake? Why didn't he have it down here in Happy Valley in front of,uh, his real constituents? Besides, there probably aren't a 1000 liburls in his entire district to disrupt the meeting. ;-)


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Catherder said:


> It is good to hear that public lands questions were discussed. Channel 2 just showed the chanting and shrieking, and only discussed the "Trump" issues.
> 
> I like your comments about the "other" recreation users. The reason I have a bit more optimism long term on the public lands battle is that opposition to the issue attracts users/enthusiasts from both sides of the aisle, so to speak. An effective coalition can be made to support public lands if both the granola types and the right leaning hunters can look past other differences and fight together.
> 
> One last thing. What the heck was Chaffetz thinking in having that meeting in Salt Lake? Why didn't he have it down here in Happy Valley in front of,uh, his real constituents? Besides, there probably aren't a 1000 liburls in his entire district to disrupt the meeting. ;-)


I don't think it matters where he had his meeting, they will find him.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

Catherder said:


> Based on the 10 PM news report, it appeared that the meeting was packed and dominated by folks from the "far left", with their accompanying chants and noise, and public lands issues weren't even a significant part of the discussion.


Wrong! It was the very first topic addressed and addressed far longer than anything else.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

Town Hall meetings are not really a place for a "discussion" with the politician. He/she is only going to reiterate their pre-planned talking points. The value of a town hall is in whipping up enthusiasm, maybe getting a good question quoted in the paper and generally fueling political action for "your" side. I was there last night and I know a lot of people were frustrated that the crowd wouldn't let JC "answer." But the crowd knew he was only going to evade and obfuscate- so what was the point? For instance, when someone asked him whether Trump should release his taxes he talked for five minutes about how Presidents and Vice-presidents should have to undergo a physical from the surgeon general... WTF? The funniest part of the night was when someone asked a very specific question about his support for ACA/Obamacare and instead of answering he started to tell an obviously pre-prepared story about his mother dying of cancer, complete with an immediate (and not very convincing) tear and the crowd shouted him down. Harsh... but he deserved that.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I don't think it matters where he had his meeting, they will find him.


Yeah, but if all the seats are filled with his right leaning constituents, (hopefully in camo or orange there to remind him about their opposition to TPL) then the liburl protesters would have to carry on outside and real discourse could take place.

Also, the Relief Society could provide hot chocolate and green jello to the cold protesters outside, hopefully quelling their anger a little bit.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Catherder said:


> It is good to hear that public lands questions were discussed. Channel 2 just showed the chanting and shrieking, and only discussed the "Trump" issues.
> 
> I like your comments about the "other" recreation users. The reason I have a bit more optimism long term on the public lands battle is that opposition to the issue attracts users/enthusiasts from both sides of the aisle, so to speak. An effective coalition can be made to support public lands if both the granola types and the right leaning hunters can look past other differences and fight together.
> 
> One last thing. What the heck was Chaffetz thinking in having that meeting in Salt Lake? Why didn't he have it down here in Happy Valley in front of,uh, his real constituents? Besides, there probably aren't a 1000 liburls in his entire district to disrupt the meeting. ;-)


Simple answer. Gerrymandering. Republicans carved up the Democratic stronghold of Salt Lake City, dividing it between the four congressional districts to ensure every district has a majority of Republican voters. Look at the map. So, even though I live in Holladay, Chaffetz is supposed to represent me. Wish he would.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I read a couple articles about the meeting and they quoted "Democrat Activists". Makes sense as to why there was so much disrespect shown through the course of the meeting. The level of disrespect and lack of civility expressed in the country today does absolutely nothing to solve the problems we face-- and that includes maintaining our public lands.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Packout said:


> I read a couple articles about the meeting and they quoted "Democrat Activists". Makes sense as to why there was so much disrespect shown through the course of the meeting. The level of disrespect and lack of civility expressed in the country today does absolutely nothing to solve the problems we face-- and that includes maintaining our public lands.


Chaffetz has shown complete arrogance and rudeness throughout his career. Anybody see his abusive behavior directed against Cecile Richards during the Planned Parenthood hearing? Got his ass handed to him, too, which was a beautiful sight.

He got precisely what he deserved last night, and there's a lot more where that came from. There were at least 3000 "Democratic Activists" there, and we're getting stronger. You guys need to wake up. You cannot change the Republican party in Utah from within. Their arrogance is incredible. If you stand for public lands, conservation, the rights of hunters and fishermen, the Republican party is your determined and avowed enemy.


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## Trooper (Oct 18, 2007)

paddler said:


> He got precisely what he deserved last night, and there's a lot more where that came from. There were at least 3000 "Democratic Activists" there, and we're getting stronger. You guys need to wake up. You cannot change the Republican party in Utah from within. Their arrogance is incredible. If you stand for public lands, conservation, the rights of hunters and fishermen, the Republican party is your determined and avowed enemy.


It's getting harder and harder for me to comprehend how any outdoorsperson can vote republican. It's only the NRA's fear mongering that has so many people convinced that the (R) stands for rifle.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

paddler said:


> Chaffetz has shown complete arrogance and rudeness throughout his career. Anybody see his abusive behavior directed against Cecile Richards during the Planned Parenthood hearing? Got his ass handed to him, too, which was a beautiful sight.
> 
> He got precisely what he deserved last night, and there's a lot more where that came from. There were at least 3000 "Democratic Activists" there, and we're getting stronger. You guys need to wake up. You cannot change the Republican party in Utah from within. Their arrogance is incredible. If you stand for public lands, conservation, the rights of hunters and fishermen, the Republican party is your determined and avowed enemy.


Yeah because Democrats are such angels. I would caution you against lumping all people together by association of a political party, it may come back to bite you in the ass


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

ksl radio played audio from the 2009 tea party town halls and last nights chaffetz disruption. Virtually identical. The tea party shut down town halls of dems, just like people shut down chaffetz last night. and the dems in 2009 complained non stop about dialogue and debate being shutdown, just like republicans are complaining about the left shutting down dialogue. Two wrongs don't make a right but I thought it was pretty interesting, seeing how people think it's just one side or the other that does it.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Utahgolf-- +1! 

So much disrespect. Even on these forums the disrespect is prevalent with posts such as the one quoting me above.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

utahgolf said:


> ksl radio played audio from the 2009 tea party town halls and last nights chaffetz disruption. Virtually identical. The tea party shut down town halls of dems, just like people shut down chaffetz last night. and the dems in 2009 complained non stop about dialogue and debate being shutdown, just like republicans are complaining about the left shutting down dialogue. Two wrongs don't make a right but I thought it was pretty interesting, seeing how people think it's just one side or the other that does it.


There's no room on the left or the right for honest and civil dialogue. Leaves me here in the middle hoping for a place to still be able to set up my tent.

Bad ideas and behaviors certainly aren't exclusive to one party or another.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Read my post again, carefully. I did not say Republicans per se are all enemies. They clearly are not. But, our elected Republican representatives consistently act against our best interests. Our entire congressional delegation is against the Bears Ears, and virtually all things that promote clean air, clean water, conservation, etc. There was one bright spot, though. Brian Shiozawa was the only Republican who voted against the resolution in the Utah Senate that wants to reverse the designation. I happen to know Brian, he's intelligent and very thoughtful. 

I truly believe that there are many Republicans in Utah who are avid outdoorsmen, and who are conservationists. But they remain affiliated with the Republican party, hoping against hope that they will be heard. I don't see that happening. They take your vote and stab you in the back. Just remember the definition of insanity, ie, doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

paddler said:


> Read my post again, carefully. I did not say Republicans per se are all enemies. They clearly are not. But, our elected Republican representatives consistently act against our best interests. Our entire congressional delegation is against the Bears Ears, and virtually all things that promote clean air, clean water, conservation, etc. There was one bright spot, though. Brian Shiozawa was the only Republican who voted against the resolution in the Utah Senate that wants to reverse the designation. I happen to know Brian, he's intelligent and very thoughtful.
> 
> I truly believe that there are many Republicans in Utah who are avid outdoorsmen, and who are conservationists. But they remain affiliated with the Republican party, hoping against hope that they will be heard. I don't see that happening. They take your vote and stab you in the back. Just remember the definition of insanity, ie, doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result.


Um I think you did..."You cannot change the Republican party in Utah from within. Their arrogance is incredible. If you stand for public lands, conservation, the rights of hunters and fishermen, *the Republican party is your determined and avowed enemy."
*

If someone is a registered Republican then they're a member of the Republican party...right?


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Catherder said:


> One last thing. What the heck was Chaffetz thinking in having that meeting in Salt Lake? Why didn't he have it down here in Happy Valley in front of,uh, his real constituents? Besides, there probably aren't a 1000 liburls in his entire district to disrupt the meeting. ;-)


Exactly. Chaffetz is not stupid.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Trooper said:


> It's getting harder and harder for me to comprehend how any outdoorsperson can vote republican. It's only the NRA's fear mongering that has so many people convinced that the (R) stands for rifle.


We feel the same way about Democrats. How can anyone vote for a thieving, lying candidate and wonder why they lost?


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## swampfox (Dec 30, 2014)

To be fair, they're all thieving, lying candidates.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Getting very close to that line gents! Calm er down.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Idiots, are we all idiots?? This IS NOT A LEFTY, RIGHTY, REPUBLICAN, DEMOCRATE ISSUE FOR LORD SAKE, if you guys don't give up this HATE, HATE HATE and come together we will surely loose what we all love. Republicans don't love the outdoors more than Democrates, or visa versa, etc, etc, etc!
As usual, a group of you always seems to bring the discussion down to those SOB lefties or SOB Right wing Bastages...looks like the ancient art of divide and conquer has taken hold of us and will surely be our downfall.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I guess I don't understand how you influence them. If you disagree with a position your are immediately branded a radical and written off because ' I've been given a mandate by the people who support me.'
The truth is the PLT is built into the party platform. I don't see anybody changing that any time soon.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

martymcfly73 said:


> We feel the same way about Democrats. How can anyone vote for a thieving, lying candidate and wonder why they lost?


What you don't feel a transgender grocery clerk is a strong candidate for Senate? Democrats should give me a candidate who shares my values, beliefs and I'll vote for them.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Alrighty then :closed_2:


This has gotten a long ways away from the original post. Do not get into the name calling BS again!!!! Stick to topic.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Boy, this one needed locked up for sure but I wish I'd been around to get a jab or two in before it was closed.


OK, OK, here I go:

My dad can beat up your dad. 

thanks


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