# Deseret Cow Elk Notice



## HJB

If you plan to apply for a cow elk tag this year on Deseret CWMU, please be aware of the following changes.

The following is a PSA from DL&L and WCO regarding cow elk hunting for public draw hunters on the Deseret CWMU for 2014 and beyond.

In the past DLL has tried to assist/guided cow elk hunters to help them be as successful as they can in harvesting cow elk. However, due to public concerns and complaints on the methods employed by DLL to harvest these animals, DLL will no longer be guiding or assisting public cow elk hunters free of charge. Cow elk hunters can choose to hire a guide or go at it on their own and have a do it yourself type of (DYI) experience (see options below). PLEASE NOTE, in the past, guided hunters have been nearly 100% successful in taking a cow elk on DLL, we anticipate non-guided hunters to be less than 50% successful in their harvest efforts.

Non-guided cow elk hunting:

Non-guided hunts will be difficult, likely involve strenuous hiking, and packing out of a cow. THIS IS NOT A HUNT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF SHAPE AND HOPE TO KILL AN ANIMAL FROM THEIR VEHICLE. NO ATVs, HORSES or other vehicles will be allowed to assist in the hunting/taking of the cow elk. NO ATVs, HORSES, or other vehicles will be allowed off road by public hunters to retrieve animals. You are allowed to bring one guest with you or party/group applicants to assist you in your hunt.
As a non-guided cow elk hunter, you will be assigned one of the following 2 day blocks. We ask that you pick your top 3 choices. We will be allowing 20-25 hunters per block to hunt their cow elk. The dates will be selected on a first come first serve basis. There will be 5 date choices, and each hunter will be able to select their top 3 choices the choices are listed below: 
-November 14th—15th
-November 17th—18th
-November 21st—22nd
-November 24th—25th
-November 28th—29th

Guided cow elk hunting:

These are 2/1 guided hunts and the price does not include meals during the day or lodging at night. No meals or lodging are provided by the ranch for cow elk hunters. Cow elk hunters will ride with the guide in their (the guides) vehicle while on the ranch. The guide will accompany the hunter(s) at all times while they attempt to harvest the elk. The guide will be responsible to find the elk, field dress the elk, pack out, and transport the elk back to the hunters vehicles. NO GUEST are allowed on these guided hunts unless the hunter(s) are youth, female, and/or handicapped hunters. 

If you draw and would like a guided cow hunt please call. PLEASE NOTE, If you wound/hit an animal on your first day it will be determined by the outfitter if you can come back a second day to track your animal. The guided trip DOES NOT guarantee a harvested animal. 


If you have any further questions, you are welcome to contact the operator listed in the antlerless proclamation


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## GaryFish

I think that is fair enough. I've "hunted" cow elk up there a few times, and had a GREAT time, every time. And if they want to say "if you don't like the way we do it, then do it yourself," that is their deal. And really, there are a couple hundred other elk tags you can apply for. 

In all reality, I wondered how long it would take them to go this route. If you don't like it, then don't put in for that tag.

AND - I like that they are letting folks know about this before the application period so people don't apply expecting one thing, and then getting another. I think that is a good approach.


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## mack1950

i also think is good that they have brought forth there changes in the cow hunt policies, I have been on deseret many times over the years and for those that think that hunting cow s without assistance is going to be easy they are indeed in for a shock espically if they have little are no knowledge of the property and with the above dates depending on snow conditions it could be a very challenging hunt.


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## stick&string89

Is there any idea on the price for the guide?


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## sagebrush

They were asking $150 before could still be the same


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## RoosterKiller

Sounds like they are making it a real elk hunt. good.


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## Vanilla

I don't blame DLL for making this change. Funny how much a bunch of whiners that would 'never put in for that hunt' can negatively impact those that would put in for that hunt. The DLL hunt, as I and others have said numerous times, is not for everyone. It's just too bad those that it doesn't work for had to run their mouths about a hunt they wouldn't even put in for. Weird how that works...

I put in for that tag last year with the specific idea of taking my almost 7 year old daughter with me. She came and had an absolute BLAST and is hooked on elk hunting already because of that day. There is no other way I could have taken her on a successful cow hunt last year without having the DLL hosted (not guided, but might as well have been) option available. Sometimes circumstances create situations. I'm so glad I got that in before the change. That was still one of the best days I've had in the field, because my daughter could be there. I am not sure I would do that hunt again unless one of my younger kids in a few years were interested. Although it was fun, it's not something I'd do every year. But it worked perfectly for what I wanted and needed for last year. 

You still have the guided option, which is good. But you aren't allowed to bring guests on the guided option except in limited scenarios. And it's not the end of the world for those looking for a more 'traditional' DIY hunt. Although there are literally thousands of cow elk tags around the state that already existed for that.


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## Bears Butt

I was fortunate enough to draw this tag last year and had two days of some of the funnest hunting I've ever had. Both my son and I filled our tags and met some incredible people in the process.
It is too bad they have been pressured into changing their methods, but I'll still put my bid in on that hunt.


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## Kevinitis

That's too bad, my wife has been putting in for that tag now for 4 years, mostly because of the guided part of it, and the high success. She is a novice hunter and with the kids, she can't usually get away for very long for general season stuff, so we looked at that as a way to give her a great experience. Perhaps if she draws this year they would still do the guide thing for us. It'd be a darn shame to build up the 4 points usually needed to draw that tag only to have that great opportunity ripped away. I think they are right that the success will go down to around 50%, it will not be much different than the ensign ranches cow elk hunt now.


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## bigbr

*I have a problem with this.*



HJB said:


> If you plan to apply for a cow elk tag this year on Deseret CWMU, please be aware of the following changes.
> 
> The following is a PSA from DL&L and WCO regarding cow elk hunting for public draw hunters on the Deseret CWMU for 2014 and beyond.
> 
> In the past DLL has tried to assist/guided cow elk hunters to help them be as successful as they can in harvesting cow elk. However, due to public concerns and complaints on the methods employed by DLL to harvest these animals, DLL will no longer be guiding or assisting public cow elk hunters free of charge. Cow elk hunters can choose to hire a guide or go at it on their own and have a do it yourself type of (DYI) experience (see options below). PLEASE NOTE, in the past, guided hunters have been nearly 100% successful in taking a cow elk on DLL, we anticipate non-guided hunters to be less than 50% successful in their harvest efforts.
> 
> Non-guided cow elk hunting:
> 
> Non-guided hunts will be difficult, likely involve strenuous hiking, and packing out of a cow. THIS IS NOT A HUNT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF SHAPE AND HOPE TO KILL AN ANIMAL FROM THEIR VEHICLE. NO ATVs, HORSES or other vehicles will be allowed to assist in the hunting/taking of the cow elk. NO ATVs, HORSES, or other vehicles will be allowed off road by public hunters to retrieve animals. You are allowed to bring one guest with you or party/group applicants to assist you in your hunt.
> As a non-guided cow elk hunter, you will be assigned one of the following 2 day blocks. We ask that you pick your top 3 choices. We will be allowing 20-25 hunters per block to hunt their cow elk. The dates will be selected on a first come first serve basis. There will be 5 date choices, and each hunter will be able to select their top 3 choices the choices are listed below:
> -November 14th-15th
> -November 17th-18th
> -November 21st-22nd
> -November 24th-25th
> -November 28th-29th
> 
> Guided cow elk hunting:
> 
> These are 2/1 guided hunts and the price does not include meals during the day or lodging at night. No meals or lodging are provided by the ranch for cow elk hunters. Cow elk hunters will ride with the guide in their (the guides) vehicle while on the ranch. The guide will accompany the hunter(s) at all times while they attempt to harvest the elk. The guide will be responsible to find the elk, field dress the elk, pack out, and transport the elk back to the hunters vehicles. NO GUEST are allowed on these guided hunts unless the hunter(s) are youth, female, and/or handicapped hunters.
> 
> If you draw and would like a guided cow hunt please call. PLEASE NOTE, If you wound/hit an animal on your first day it will be determined by the outfitter if you can come back a second day to track your animal. The guided trip DOES NOT guarantee a harvested animal.
> 
> If you have any further questions, you are welcome to contact the operator listed in the antlerless proclamation


Does anyone out there not have a problem with this? The whole reason for the CWMU program was started is allowing equal access and opportunity for state draw recipients to all of the concession not just the part you can walk too. If trucks, horses, quads are used on the ranch for the taking of game or transportation thereof, then the use by state draw recipients is a matter of equal access.! If for whatever reason Deseret has decided to stop the equal access part of this charter, then their CWMU status should be pulled along with any other CWMU that is not allowing equal access. Play by the rules or get out and wait for the season or put the GD thing in subdivision for all I care. I am sick of CWMU changing the rules, even for a cow tag.


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## mack1950

there has always been a few area s on deseret where they didn't want to have hunters going into guided are unguided one of the main reasons is that to much pressure to close to the boundaries push the elk off onto other properties. there not adjusting area s were you can hunt for the elk guided are unguided the simple truth is that the guides know what areas are restricted and know to stay away from them as a unguided hunter these boundaries have to be established so that the unguided hunters know were to stay out off. 
I hope it works our better than the last time the unguided were tried n the 90s that turned out to be a disaster. the hunter success was way down and the crippling rate was way up, also a lot of bulls were turning up shot. the total guided aspect was brought forth one to keep the population were they wanted it and to try and avoid crippling and the accidental shooting of bulls. it worked and except for a few folks that didn't like the operation and complained. the main thing to remember is that it is a big piece of private property and its possible to close it completely to all but paying hunters it is there property and like it are not its the ranch's choice


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## bigbr

*You still do not get the picture*



mack1950 said:


> there has always been a few area s on deseret where they didn't want to have hunters going into guided are unguided one of the main reasons is that to much pressure to close to the boundaries push the elk off onto other properties. there not adjusting area s were you can hunt for the elk guided are unguided the simple truth is that the guides know what areas are restricted and know to stay away from them as a unguided hunter these boundaries have to be established so that the unguided hunters know were to stay out off.
> I hope it works our better than the last time the unguided were tried n the 90s that turned out to be a disaster. the hunter success was way down and the crippling rate was way up, also a lot of bulls were turning up shot. the total guided aspect was brought forth one to keep the population were they wanted it and to try and avoid crippling and the accidental shooting of bulls. it worked and except for a few folks that didn't like the operation and complained. the main thing to remember is that it is a big piece of private property and its possible to close it completely to all but paying hunters it is there property and like it are not its the ranch's choice


If Deseret dose not want areas of the ranch hunted, fine, then they can post those areas NO HUNTING! But on the other hand if these areas are hunted and set aside for only paying clients then I could give s chit less close it down as a CWMU and let them hunt during the ten day General hunt or put it into subdivisions whichever suites their fancy. On the other hand if they want the privileged of setting their own seasons and guaranteed property owner tags then they had better allow equal opportunity and access to the public draw hunters and that means vehicular travel on established roads or ohv trails and extraction of game for either sex permit holders from the public hunter pool.


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## Bears Butt

In reading the rules of DLL non guided hunts, they don't say the hunter can't use the roads to drive on, they say they can't drive OFF the roads for any reason. That sounds reasonable to me. So, if you want to have a DIY hunt without at guide, go for it. You drive on the roads and hike the rest. Pretty simple to me.


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## Vanilla

Where on the notice posted did it say that some areas would only be open to people that purchase the tag from Deseret?


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## Doc

I called the outfitter for the unit and we had a good chat. They will still offer the guided option but prices will go up. They were losing money with the $150.00 guide fee. Considering they use their own equipment and supply the fuel I can understand that. I had the opportunity to accompany my grandson last fall and it was a great hunt for him to be able to shoot his first elk. The hunt is what it is and in my opinion, there will be further changes as things evolve. The herd management has been based on a fairly controlled harvest strategy and these changes are going to make it more difficult to manage as well as it has been as in the past. Even guided there is no guarantee of an elk but the odds are in your favor. My wife has enough points to probably draw next year and we need to decide if its something she wants to do or not. I'm getting too old to pack an elk out so it looks like a good option to me.


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## RandomElk16

bigbr said:


> Does anyone out there not have a problem with this? The whole reason for the CWMU program was started is allowing equal access and opportunity for state draw recipients to all of the concession not just the part you can walk too. If trucks, horses, quads are used on the ranch for the taking of game or transportation thereof, then the use by state draw recipients is a matter of equal access.! If for whatever reason Deseret has decided to stop the equal access part of this charter, then their CWMU status should be pulled along with any other CWMU that is not allowing equal access. Play by the rules or get out and wait for the season or put the GD thing in subdivision for all I care. I am sick of CWMU changing the rules, even for a cow tag.


Don't they give all antlerless tags to the state for more bull tags? I could be wrong, but I believe they do not sell antlerless hunts on DLL. Therefore, you have the same access as anyone else with your tag. I gotta side with them, can't complain on the outcome that came up because of all the complaining!!!

Everyone complained and ruined a good thing. Call it what you want, but cow elk is a hunt I consider a freezer filler. Now, you have to choose 2 day blocks and may be up there with 25 other hunters at once. You use to be able to have 2 days spread out for your convenience.

They did more than they needed to in the past. Now, they basically give the cow tags to the state, shrug and say good luck, and profit on the bull tags. Can't blame them. If you were loosing money as an outfitter, and as an individual guide, why take all the hate and criticism? Good luck packing out a cow by yourself :doh:

Hunters are screwing themselves now days out of more and more opportunity.


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## GaryFish

The funny thing here, is that they WANT hunters to shoot the cows. Word I got is that they wanted to issue twice as many cow tags this year, than what DWR would go for. But the cow tags are how they keep the herds in check up there. So they did whatever it took to make sure hunters were shooting their elk.


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## manysteps

I just received this from one of the guys in charge at DLL

"Yes it is going to be different. Guided hunts will take place in October and November. Mostly on Saturdays. It will be 2/1 hunter to guide. No more hunting from the trucks. It will be spot and stock. the cost is now $200 plus utah sales tax. 

If you don't want to do the guided option you will get to pick a two day block in November where you can come and hunt without a guide. This hunt will be like hunting public land; you will do the finding of elk, the stalking of elk, and the packing of elk on your own. 

Guided guys will be around 90% successful. We estimate the non guided guys will be in the 10-20% success rate."


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## GaryFish

$200 is still a screaming deal. And I would also hope that hunters will tip the guide as appropriate for the service on their hunt.


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## Vanilla

I think they may be over-selling the 10-20% success rate for non-guided hunters a little bit. It won't be easy, but I think it will be higher than that but still SIGNIFICANTLY lower than they have been accustomed to up there. No wonder they wanted to double the amount of tags. 

But now that I think about it more, it may be low in the 10-20% range at least for the first few years as people that don't know about these changes and are expecting a fairly easy hunt get filtered out.


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## mack1950

thank you for the info ts30 sound about right as for as the success at least that's about what it was in the 90s when the ranch tried it for a couple of years. what folks don't realize is just how cotton picking big that property is and your not looking for scattered groups of 10 to 20 but big wintering groups in the hundreds sometimes. im in my 60s so the guided option is the way I ll be using mostly because there a big critter to haul out. but I do agree I think this will cause some folks to be weeded out just not me lol.


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## GaryFish

Its also better to suggest a lower success rate, and have it turn out better, than suggest a higher rate and have it turn out low.


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## RichardClarke

I love this quote:
"...No more hunting from the trucks. It will be spot and stock."

So in my opinion, it will be real hunting. Actually a sport and a challenge. Something man used to do once upon a time...


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## swbuckmaster

Why does a cow hunt have to be Manley spot and stalk hunt. Its a cull hunt/meat hunt. Id prefer an easy meat hunt from the road/vehicle to a bust a gut 10 mike hike. I want every chance to end it early and quick. So I can get it on ice. Cheaper the better!

Now I wouldn't want a hunt where the cows have been running arround with their hormones pumping either. They dont taste as good


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## Nambaster

IMHO this hunt is beginning to approximate the "Antelope Island Factor" with the exception of having an island guide to instruct you on what bison you can and cannot shoot. I am seeing some similarities. While you are not forced to use a guide and you can opt to use one at your own discretion the CWMU does a minimal effort to abide by guidelines to allow 2 days per hunter. 

I agree with buckmaster that a cow elk is not a trophy animal and the easier harvest the better. One of the things that may leave me feeling a little vacant is not being able to locate the animals on my own and exploring the unit. That being said I would bet that it is safe to assume that since you are riding with the guide he is probably going to show you around the unit and ensure an enjoyable hunt. 

This hunt would not be my type of hunt and the notice can be appreciated as an effort to manage the unit. I would be very surprised if the CWMU is under drawn because of the notice as it is a very popular CWMU. I think that this just adds a little bit more diversification to the draw process and unit selection.


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## RichardClarke

Because it is called a Big Game "Hunt" or Antlerless "Hunt". It is not called a harvest or a culling. There are always high fence operations. Pay your money, pull up in a truck, whack one, drive up to it and load 'er up and head out. Quick, easy and not much of a challenge. 

SW, if I may ask you a question, why do you hunt? I don't intend to be mean spirited here, but it appears you do not like a challenge, you like being on or near a road and vehicle while hunting. And most importantly you don't seem to want the whole thing to take very long...


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## Dunkem

RichardClarke said:


> Because it is called a Big Game "Hunt" or Antlerless "Hunt". It is not called a harvest or a culling. There are always high fence operations. Pay your money, pull up in a truck, whack one, drive up to it and load 'er up and head out. Quick, easy and not much of a challenge.
> 
> SW, if I may ask you a question, why do you hunt? I don't intend to be mean spirited here, but it appears you do not like a challenge, you like being on or near a road and vehicle while hunting. And most importantly you don't seem to want the whole thing to take very long...


Maybe you have not read his post "follow me on my archery bear hunt".Seems there was some challange and effort there8)


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## swbuckmaster

RichardClarke said:


> Because it is called a Big Game "Hunt" or Antlerless "Hunt". It is not called a harvest or a culling. There are always high fence operations. Pay your money, pull up in a truck, whack one, drive up to it and load 'er up and head out. Quick, easy and not much of a challenge.
> 
> SW, if I may ask you a question, why do you hunt? I don't intend to be mean spirited here, but it appears you do not like a challenge, you like being on or near a road and vehicle while hunting. And most importantly you don't seem to want the whole thing to take very long...


Haha ha! Arent we talking about cow and doe hunts? Meat hunts? Why would I want to pay in time, fuel, effort, high dollar gear for a meat hunt. That just jacks the cost of the meat up$$.

Since were not being mean and just discussing things. Saying I dont like a challenge is bs! I hunt with a bow and all of my hunts except one doe antelope hunt on the deseret have been in some of the most rugged terrain imaginable. Ive never run from a hard hunt. Ive always put in the time "nearly year round scouting" and put plenty of boot leather on the ground. In fact i go through two pairs of hiking shoes a year. Compound this with my year round practice I do with my bow and im pretty happy with my success on trophy hunts.

I hunt cows about every other year. I dont run around like a young buck chasing them to the top of the mountain so I can have a 10 mile drag. No I hunt them patiently with my vehicle from the road and when the time is right I strike lol. Sometimes you need an easy hunt. Thats what cows and does are for.


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## Vanilla

SW- spot on!


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## Kevinitis

I think DLL is paying a little too much attention to the critical minority. This site is just a subset of hunters, most of whom are hard core hunters. I don't think the majority is represented here. If it were, the Deseret antlerless hunts would not be so popular. Rather, they are one of the toughest antlerless hunts to draw. I think you will see in the coming years that the Deseret elk antlerless tags will go from 5-6 points to draw down to 1 or 2 points.


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## Lonetree

RichardClarke said:


> Because it is called a Big Game "Hunt" or Antlerless "Hunt". It is not called a harvest or a culling. There are always high fence operations. Pay your money, pull up in a truck, whack one, drive up to it and load 'er up and head out. Quick, easy and not much of a challenge.
> 
> SW, if I may ask you a question, why do you hunt? I don't intend to be mean spirited here, but it appears you do not like a challenge, you like being on or near a road and vehicle while hunting. And most importantly you don't seem to want the whole thing to take very long...


We are talking about animals that do not have antlers. They do not deserve the same respect as bucks and bulls. They are not worthy of extended efforts, and can not be considered real trophies. So why treat them as such? They can only feed our bodies.


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## Nambaster

Some elk look good mounted by the shoulders on a wall displaying their antlers and masculine traits and demand respect. Other elk can make a darn good sammich!!! :mrgreen:

Just like any other CWMU in the state you have to play by their rules while you are on their court. Instead of saying "No dunking" they just say "Please dunk, but use our shiny red ladder and pay the toll.... because we have had too many people hanging on the rim"


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## manysteps

Kevinitis said:


> I think DLL is paying a little too much attention to the critical minority. This site is just a subset of hunters, most of whom are hard core hunters. I don't think the majority is represented here. If it were, the Deseret antlerless hunts would not be so popular. Rather, they are one of the toughest antlerless hunts to draw. I think you will see in the coming years that the Deseret elk antlerless tags will go from 5-6 points to draw down to 1 or 2 points.


This hunt will continue to be coveted by those who are willing to pay the $200.00 guided fee (and tip).

I for one am glad to pay that for the guide's knowledge of not only the area, but the habits of the animals.

I'm not afraid of hiking, I'm not afraid of helping to pack that animal out.

(I chased one last year down a draw that even my guide didn't want to go into, and gave myself heat stroke in the process because I had too many layers on for that kind of activity, but at least I was WILLING to go there)

All that said, we can argue all we want about whether or not this should be a "hunt" or "kill" opportunity... well, here's my take on it:

IN MY OPINION... For DLL and the DWR, this IS a depredation hunt... They NEED to kill 250+ cows in order to keep the herd in check.

Elk are not the smartest animals in the woods, but they definitely know how to avoid getting killed... especially by dummies like us.

Once the cows have figured out that they're being pursued, you can forget about getting close to them without the "spot and struck" (yes, that was a word combination of stalk and truck I intended there)

I feel bad for anyone that chooses the non-guided option next year, because with all the guided guys going out before them, the elk will know that vehicles mean danger, and you won't get within 1000 yards of them before they're gone.

If you don't want to pay the $$, better put in for another unit. (I know I would)

When I look at the "reason" for this hunt, and the number of tags that need to be filled, I don't see any other way for it to be accomplished than the way they've been running it.

Is it easy? nope.

Is it unethical? I say no, but I can see where some would argue otherwise.

Is it fun? oh, heck yes!

Would I hunt that way for a trophy bull? Can I? (kidding, though, can I?)

I challenge anyone who is against my opinion this... It's pretty simple...

Tell me how you would harvest 250 cow elk... who are all herded up... inside a month an a half WITHOUT the "elk rodeo" that everyone's poo pooing.

When they'll run off upon seeing your truck from 1000 yards away because of all the pressure, so how would you propose to get close enough to kill one?


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## Vanilla

manysteps, great points. And I agree with them.


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## swbuckmaster

Another thing not all hunters are on the same level. We will be hunting deseret this year for buck antelope. My wife has the tag. When she got her blue card I asked her what hunts she wanted to put in for and she said she didnt want to get up early and didnt want to hike. Deseret antelope was a good fit. 

If people dont like the hunts they dont have to put in for them.


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## Springville Shooter

Many steps and SW make good points. Ethics and hunting styles are largely personal and we would all be better off to impart the "live and let live" philosophy as much as possible. My wife has the same attitude about hunting as SW describes. She only wants to do it if it's fun, comfortable, and not too physical. So she hunts every 5 years or so, she could care less about trophies, she hates taxidermy, and she's ultra picky about the meat. But she loves to spend the time with me and she loves making perfect shots. I don't enjoy vehicle hunting or paying guides.....but kudos to those who do. I've hunted CWMU's with my kiddos and appreciated the experience......including the service which I did tip for.--------SS


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## Nambaster

There is no guide recommendation for the speed goats on DLL and I would bet that success rates are some where north of the 90% rate. 

The way I see it is you pay $50.00 for the tag and another $200.00 for the guide and another $50.00 for a tip and you get one elk for the price of 6 which actually is pretty close to what my antlerless elk success rate is on units outside of DLL which just makes me sad and realize that I am no better than the Manysteps in any way shape or form

I would never look down on the hunter to hunts DLL with a guide. Hopefully everyone keeps putting in for that hunt and increases my chances of drawing in units outside of DLL. After all..... It's gonna take me 6 tries....


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## RandomElk16

5-6 Points to draw? Everyone I know draws it in 2-3?


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## Vanilla

3 guaranteed it the last few years.


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## Nambaster

I usually fill about 1 out of 6 tags.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

Seriously success rates for antlerless are 1 in 6? It's gotta vary by unit. I've drawn 3 antlerless tags so far and killed 3 elk.


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## swbuckmaster

I draw antlerless tags every other year and they have always been one day hunts just like I like them. I haven't hunted cows on the deseret though. With my kids having chances at cow tags now we alternate years so we dont end up with too much meat. This allows us to pull tags every year some where.


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## Lonetree

My sarcasm laden comment wasn't about ethics, that is a separate but related topic.

Although Leopold's thoughts on the gallery do appear to have some weight here, especially in regard to applause. 

"One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job."--Jose Ortega y Gasset


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## SLCHunter

Lonetree said:


> "One does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted...If one were to present the sportsman with the death of the animal as a gift he would refuse it. What he is after is having to win it, to conquer the surly brute through his own effort and skill with all the extras that this carries with it: the immersion in the countryside, the healthfulness of the exercise, the distraction from his job."--Jose Ortega y Gasset


Thank you Lonetree! To each his own, but I want to be out there, and walk, even for the meat. Otherwise, I'd go to the butcher.


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## Critter

SLCHunter said:


> Thank you Lonetree! To each his own, but I want to be out there, and walk, even for the meat. Otherwise, I'd go to the butcher.


You may have a problem going to the butcher and affording elk meat. A cow elk hunt is a meat hunt and I have found that over 30+ years of hunting them there really isn't a cow elk out there that is worth shooting that I can't drive something within 100 yards of. A bull elk is a different animal, you are not just after the meat if you have waited a number of years to draw that tag and hiking/walking is necessary to find them.

Just as a fyi here is a link to the cost of elk meat at the "butcher"

http://www.elkusa.com/elk_meat.html...lhgqvhnagOMpyFm2Y6Mm8AlxBVISD9i-xj_CmMrvD_BwE


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## swbuckmaster

Ooouch! I wont even pay the $200+ bucks they want to package an elk. I went and bought a high end cabelas meat grinder and do it all my self.


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## morvlorv

are my odds at drawing this tag with zero points pretty slim? 

This sounds like a good deal for someone like myself that is just this year getting into hunting.

For the $200 plus tip, sounds like I can learn a lot of the basics by doing this hunt, and I can fill the freezer with elk meat, the 200lbs of beef is lonely in there.

Maybe I learn a little about the land, maybe I learn a little how to hunt.

They field dress and haul out too? I can definitely watch and learn from that. My biggest fear in hunting is messing up the field dressing part.
Sounds like a win/win for myself never having been hunting.


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## swbuckmaster

It would be perfect for someone like you. The only problem is the preference point system we have on antlerless hunts. All the tags go to the top point holders. If you have zero points your odds are more then likely to be zero chance at the tag.

Maybe you could just buy the tag and bypass the draw. Not sure what those go for though.


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## manysteps

swbuckmaster said:


> It would be perfect for someone like you. The only problem is the preference point system we have on antlerless hunts. All the tags go to the top point holders. If you have zero points your odds are more then likely to be zero chance at the tag.
> 
> Maybe you could just buy the tag and bypass the draw. Not sure what those go for though.


You can't buy a tag from DLL. All of their sold tags are done as corporate packages.


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## swbuckmaster

Well it looks like morvlorv has zero chance to draw it this year


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## morvlorv

well that just sucks......

what a quandary


----------



## Critter

morvlorv said:


> are my odds at drawing this tag with zero points pretty slim?
> 
> This sounds like a good deal for someone like myself that is just this year getting into hunting.
> 
> For the $200 plus tip, sounds like I can learn a lot of the basics by doing this hunt, and I can fill the freezer with elk meat, the 200lbs of beef is lonely in there.
> 
> Maybe I learn a little about the land, maybe I learn a little how to hunt.
> 
> They field dress and haul out too? I can definitely watch and learn from that. My biggest fear in hunting is messing up the field dressing part.
> Sounds like a win/win for myself never having been hunting.


If you have ever taking care of a deer you can take care of a elk. The only difference is that the elk is 3 to 5 times larger than the deer depending on the size of each. The main thing with a elk is that you need to be prepared to take care of that much meat.


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## morvlorv

I have not dressed a deer yet either.

I did draw the GS buck tag for unit 4/5/6, the chalk creek/east canyon/morgan hunt.

But from what I hear, it will be tough hunting with little public land, so Im not super stoked on my chances of tagging out.

I have been watching tons of videos on field dressing both deer and elk, and by the time hunting season comes around, I hope to have it ingrained in my brain on how to do it.

Ill for sure not draw the cow tag, especially if I used up all my luck on the GS buck tag with no points.


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## Critter

It is best if you have never done it before to have someone there to help you that has.

I was in the same boat that you are in quite a few years ago. What I was told is that everything on the insides needs to get to the outside and not to cut anything on the inside. That first deer that I cleaned was a experience.


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## morvlorv

Critter said:


> It is best if you have never done it before to have someone there to help you that has.
> 
> I was in the same boat that you are in quite a few years ago. What I was told is that everything on the insides needs to get to the outside and not to cut anything on the inside. That first deer that I cleaned was a experience.


Yes, I agree with this for sure, I dont assume it would be an easy task by any means, quite a challenge for sure.

I have tried to find people to help out and go with, or come with me, or to show me the ropes, but the reception is not so welcomed by the hunting community. hah

And I definitely cant afford a full guided hunt. 

It will be an interesting experience I should document here. hah


----------



## DallanC

morvlorv said:


> I have not dressed a deer yet either.
> 
> ...
> 
> I have been watching tons of videos on field dressing both deer and elk, and by the time hunting season comes around, I hope to have it ingrained in my brain on how to do it.


http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4
http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=27

-DallanC


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## swbuckmaster

Morvlorv what is your age and gender? This sounds like a stupid question but there are people on this forum all the time looking for hunting partners. Stick with this forum long enough and im sure someone will help you out.


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## Lonetree

morvlorv said:


> Yes, I agree with this for sure, I dont assume it would be an easy task by any means, quite a challenge for sure.
> 
> I have tried to find people to help out and go with, or come with me, or to show me the ropes, but the reception is not so welcomed by the hunting community. hah
> 
> And I definitely cant afford a full guided hunt.
> 
> It will be an interesting experience I should document here. hah


If you are interested in putting in some miles, I can take you into a few places in that unit. When I was a kid we hunted a lot of both public and private on those units. Do you backpack?


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## swbuckmaster

Nice offer LT


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## morvlorv

swbuckmaster said:


> Morvlorv what is your age and gender? This sounds like a stupid question but there are people on this forum all the time looking for hunting partners. Stick with this forum long enough and im sure someone will help you out.


haha, it does sound odd at first. but I get it.

Im male, 40 years old. Avid outdoors-man, just never been into hunting.
But I do bet I have logged more miles in the woods than most on here. haha
Ive put down over 5000 miles on foot in the mountains over the last 20 years.

Now that I am older, I want to experience hunting and putting food on the table for my family. The increasing meat prices have helped this decision, not to mention how much I love the woods.

I actually made a post a while back asking for hunting partners, but like I said, it wasnt received well. I left it at that because I get it. Im an outsider to this club and people are particular about helping and giving info, I totally get it, so I didnt push the issue at all.
I have been an avid flyfisherman my entire life, and I know Utah fishing quite well, so I know how it goes when people want help, I have been selective as well.

Ill definitely stick around though and hope for some help.
I have PM'd a couple members here that have replied. 

Thanks guys and if anyone does want to join me on my buck hunt, you are more than welcome. hah


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## morvlorv

PM sent LT


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## swbuckmaster

Morvlorv ive found the more you post photos and your successes it helps people relate to you better. Post your fishing successes if that's what your good at. You maybe be able to trade info.
There are plenty of guys that hunt and fish on this forum. Some times its a give and take sort of deal. I dont have a boat but love shooting carp. Id also like to get into shooting ducks. 

Ive met some pretty cool people on this forum over the years!


----------



## Springville Shooter

Yup, there's some good dudes on here. Don't rely too much on first impressions, I have found out that several of those with whom I often disagree have become like old buddies over time. Heck, I even fish with a few of them now. I have given help and received help and surely seen a variety of perspectives. 

Morvlorv, best of luck with whatever hunting adventures you end up with this year. Plenty of help and advice on here to help along the way. ------SS


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## morvlorv

Springville Shooter said:


> Yup, there's some good dudes on here. Don't rely too much on first impressions, I have found out that several of those with whom I often disagree have become like old buddies over time. Heck, I even fish with a few of them now. I have given help and received help and surely seen a variety of perspectives.
> 
> Morvlorv, best of luck with whatever hunting adventures you end up with this year. Plenty of help and advice on here to help along the way. ------SS


Thanks SS! Whatever hunts I go on, I will for sure document my successes and struggles here. Ill start when I finally go on my first scouting trip here soon.

and yeah, I have been reading and lurking this site for a couple years now, you all are an awesome bunch, even the arguments y'all get into are great. hah
Thats why I wasnt turned off when I first posted. I know the routine. 
every year someone get pooped on when doling out advice or trying to help out someone with 1 or 2 posts.

Wow has this post diverted from the topic. 
I apologize for that.

Back on topic, I might still try my luck on the Deseret hunt, not sure yet.
It sounds like a hell of a good time


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## izzydog

I don't think you should put in for the Deseret. It sounds like nothing but a headache and a horrible experience. You should put in for Currant Creek where it won't be very crowded! Believe me, I am not saying this so my odds of drawing the Deseret are better, I would never do something like that!


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## Springville Shooter

izzydog said:


> I don't think you should put in for the Deseret. It sounds like nothing but a headache and a horrible experience. You should put in for Currant Creek where it won't be very crowded! Believe me, I am not saying this so my odds of drawing the Deseret are better, I would never do something like that!


There are no elk on the Current Creek, or the Avinaquin, or the Three Corners.... Ya, that's right.------SS


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## morvlorv

izzydog said:


> I don't think you should put in for the Deseret. It sounds like nothing but a headache and a horrible experience. You should put in for Currant Creek where it won't be very crowded! Believe me, I am not saying this so my odds of drawing the Deseret are better, I would never do something like that!


lol, Like I said, Ive been reading this forum for a couple years. haha


----------



## elkfromabove

morvlorv said:


> I have not dressed a deer yet either.
> 
> I did draw the GS buck tag for unit 4/5/6, the chalk creek/east canyon/morgan hunt.
> 
> But from what I hear, it will be tough hunting with little public land, so Im not super stoked on my chances of tagging out.
> 
> I have been watching tons of videos on field dressing both deer and elk, and by the time hunting season comes around, I hope to have it ingrained in my brain on how to do it.
> 
> Ill for sure not draw the cow tag, especially if I used up all my luck on the GS buck tag with no points.


 There's actually a good amount of public land on the west side (city side) of the summit, but it is quite steep and can get crowded, but there are deer there as well as a few elk. And there are over-the-counter/online cow elk control tags available for the East Canyon portion of the unit which means you could hunt a cow elk at the same time as the buck hunt or the bull elk hunt (If you also bought a first come-first served over-the-counter/online bull elk tag.) 3 animals? Yeh, it's possible! Good luck!


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## Bo0YaA

Its to bad their isn't another unit that offers even close to the same success ratio as DLL. I would love to see people boycott them a few years. I mean in the end we are helping them keep the herds in check, why do they have to try and fleece us in the process. I was really hoping to get my daughter in there for a hunt this year but at $300.00 (including tip) there is no way.


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## Packout

Here are the Rules for Deseret taken from their information page on the UDWR site.

"Rules of conduct
Contact operator for ranch rules & polices
All buck deer and bull elk hunters will be guided
No guests allowed for male hunters 18 and older
Female hunters & youth under 18, 1 guest
*All antlerless elk hunters will be guided*, no guests for hunters 18 & older,
Female antlerless elk hunters and youth under 18, 1guest
All pronghorn hunters are un-guided
Wounding policy-once animal is wounded, no other animal may be shot"

With the application period already open and seeing as the grand majority of hunters never visit a hunting forum page, I tend to think that the managers of Deseret might just be guiding anterless hunters for free again this year. They can not charge you to pay for a guide if they are requiring it to hunt on the ranch.


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## manysteps

See rule #1... They gladly provided me the information to make an informed decision BEFORE I put in for it.



Packout said:


> Here are the Rules for Deseret taken from their information page on the UDWR site.
> 
> "Rules of conduct
> Contact operator for ranch rules & polices


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## Vanilla

Packout,

The "guided" option at Deseret hasn't been free in years. I don't see anywhere on there that the hunts would be guided for free? Am I missing something? What would make them have to guide hunters for free?


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## GaryFish

For $300, it is still a screaming deal. Especially when you see what kind of abuse they'll put on THEIR truck, for you to get your elk. AND they gut it, load it, clean it up for pictures if you want, will take the pictures, and truthfully - the guides work very hard for that money. And $200 + a tip is a bargain for the service you get. 

I'm guessing that the info on DWR's website has not been updated with the new info for this year. 

My own thoughts on the deal, is that if these changes don't work out, then DLL will keep 1/2 of the cow tags for their hunting lease clients or fishing club members, and just up the price to them $500/year or something and give less and less to the public. Heck, if it were my operation, that's what I'd do. Since all hunting other hunting is done through lease up there instead of individual tag sales, it would certainly be less headache to just serve those clients they already know.


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## sagebrush

who or what makes the tip a $50 bill? what wrong with 10% which would be a $20


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## swbuckmaster

What is the better deal paying someone to use their vehicle and help you kill an elk in one day, gut ect or paying the butcher the same amount to package it.

I think the guide fee is worth it if you do your own butchering


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## sagebrush

swbuckmaster said:


> What is the better deal paying someone to use their vehicle and help you kill an elk in one day, gut ect or paying the butcher the same amount to package it.
> 
> I think the guide fee is worth it if you do your own butchering


 what does using his truck have to do with the tip that is what the $200 is for..btw I help in the gutting and dragging part


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## swbuckmaster

Where did i say anything about the tip I could care less about the tip. Im saying the whole deal is a deal including the tip.


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## sagebrush

what ever, I m asking about the tip you all saying that is $50 for some reason


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## swbuckmaster

I think you have me confused with someone else I didnt say anything about $50. 

But if I were to tip it would be more than %10.


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## Packout

R657-37-9. Permit Allocation.
(6) A landowner association member or landowner association operator must provide access free of charge to any person who has received a CWMU permit through the general public big game or turkey drawings, except as provided in Section 23-23-11.

If they are restricting access by requiring the public hunter to pay a guide they are violating the rule. 

Their own rules state that all antlerless elk hunters will be guided. A CWMU can not force the public hunter to pay for a guide. So if they have been charging the public for a guide service then they have been out of line. The CWMU can offer a guide service for money IF it is voluntary. If a CWMU requires a guide then the CWMU is responsible to cover the guide fee. Their rule states that all antlerless hunters will be guided- as such they place the burden of guiding on themselves and it should not be placed on the public hunter. 

I would probably pay for a guide also, especially with the short period of time to hunt and the restrictions on "helpers". The way it is set up does not lend well to a DIY hunt.

An interesting side effect of their decision--
R657-37-9. Permit Allocation.
(5)(a) The landowner association member or landowner association operator must meet antlerless harvest objectives established in the CWMU management plan under subsection R657-37-4(3)(a)(ii).
(b) Failure to meet antlerless harvest objectives based on a three year average may result in discipline under section R657-37-14.


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## RandomElk16

Packout said:


> R657-37-9. Permit Allocation.
> (6) A landowner association member or landowner association operator must provide access free of charge to any person who has received a CWMU permit through the general public big game or turkey drawings, except as provided in Section 23-23-11.
> 
> If they are restricting access by requiring the public hunter to pay a guide they are violating the rule.
> 
> Their own rules state that all antlerless elk hunters will be guided. A CWMU can not force the public hunter to pay for a guide. So if they have been charging the public for a guide service then they have been out of line. The CWMU can offer a guide service for money IF it is voluntary. If a CWMU requires a guide then the CWMU is responsible to cover the guide fee. Their rule states that all antlerless hunters will be guided- as such they place the burden of guiding on themselves and it should not be placed on the public hunter.
> 
> I would probably pay for a guide also, especially with the short period of time to hunt and the restrictions on "helpers". The way it is set up does not lend well to a DIY hunt.
> 
> An interesting side effect of their decision--
> R657-37-9. Permit Allocation.
> (5)(a) The landowner association member or landowner association operator must meet antlerless harvest objectives established in the CWMU management plan under subsection R657-37-4(3)(a)(ii).
> (b) Failure to meet antlerless harvest objectives based on a three year average may result in discipline under section R657-37-14.


They don't force you to purchase a guide. In the past they would monitor/drive around in a separate vehicle from you. They called this guiding, and with a good guide he would take you to elk to make his day quicker. Also to make sure you don't pop one of their monsters on accident.

Now they may be more standoffish to prove a point about their past methods and high success rates.

Also, they have a huge success rate. Well above objective. No problem meeting that, and I am sure this change won't affect it.

Someone mentioned them keeping the tags. The reason they give the state the antlerless tags is so they can receive more Bull tags. For X number of Bull tags you must give the state X number. This formula changes when you hand over the antlerless tags. To them, 100 guided and paid cow hunts is about 1 sold/guided bull tag. That is why they have no problem parting with them, other than the pain that is in their *** from it.


----------



## Doc

sagebrush said:


> who or what makes the tip a $50 bill? what wrong with 10% which would be a $20


The letter my grandson received last year stated that the service was equivalent to a $500.00 guided cow hunt (that other guides would charge in different places?), and tipping the guides is appreciated because of their hard work and wear and tear on their vehicles. I think people took that as 10% of $500=$50. Personally I think $50 would have been a pretty pathetic tip for the service rendered my grandson.


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## sagebrush

This was before they started charging a fee up front. Now that a fee is in place consider this fee has the payment for the hard work and wear and tear on their vehicle.

Tip is an option now seeing how they want to set the tip fee at $200


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## Bo0YaA

Ok how about I volunteer to use my truck and my gas, the guide can just hop in with me. That way the wear and tear is my responsibility does the fee go down? (I already know the answer)


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## Vanilla

sagebrush said:


> This was before they started charging a fee up front.


No it wasn't. That statement is just simply 100% false. The guided option has had a cost for multiple years now.

I don't know why people get so fired up when the "D" word is thrown out. If you don't like Deseret's practices, don't apply for a tag there. It really, truly is that simple.


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## sagebrush

I had a tag 2 years ago and no guide fee was charged. It was the following year the guide fee was imposed max was $150 now it's $200. All the years beforehand was based on how much of a tip if they received one was . At the time they hinted at $50.


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## Vanilla

I had the tag last year and no guide fee was charged because I chose the hosted option, not the guided option. And people this year that don't choose the guided option will not have a guide fee either. 

But 2 years ago, it cost $$ for the guided option as well. I know that for a fact.


----------



## Huge29

sagebrush said:


> what ever, I m asking about the tip you all saying that is $50 for some reason


Seriously?! You are going to complain over $50 tip? You couldn't pick up some amigos at Home Depot and make them do all of the work the guide will do for that much. I always get a chuckle over people who spend literally thousands of dollars a year on a truck that they only need for about 5-10 days/year, then thousands in reloading, about a thousand for each rifle (having about ten of them) couple hundred on tags, $400 on gas, $800 on binocs, $6,000 for an ATV, $300 for GPS, dog for $1,500 and his food all year...but $50 for a guy busting his arse packing hundreds of pounds of YOUR elk, gutting it, getting all bloody and nasty and that is the straw that broke the camel's back?! Seriously!? I just don't get it, I know we all have a sense of watching our dollars, but it is really ridiculously humurous putting it all in context of what we spend on our favorite little hobby and this $50 is likely the biggest factor (even bigger factor than using a crappy old rifle vs a brand new top of the line) in your success. You pay a waiter $10 for doing about 15 minutes worth of work on your behalf holding a few plates, but a guy busting his butt all day for two days deserves the same $10? I have nothing to do with any guides, but having worked in the service industry...if you have problem with such a tip, do everyone a favor and just stay home and complain about how expensive things are as you type from your $1,500 PC watching your $3,000 TV parked near your $50,000 truck in your $600,000 house.  Off of the soapbox.
Put yourself in the guide's position and how much money would you need to be paid to make it half way worth your time, being that you have likely put in a lot of time scouting before hand, gas to get there, tires, truck maintenance, binocs, spotting scope, insurance, etc. I am guessing that the majority of us would laugh at the thought of doing all of that work for what they get paid.


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## sagebrush

huge29 its DLL policy to provide a guide with the hunters, im sure its to keep the hunters in line. as for the hard work of driving around road hunting looking for an elk, using radios to inform others where the elk are and not. hell I road hunt and its not really that hard, expect maybe trying to keep on the road and not running into things.

you make it sound as if they are out two weeks prior scouring the land keeping the elk all herded up so that some dumb hunter as yourself can come out and shoot one. as for gutting one out and getting all messy. maybe its high time that you learn how to gut one out and not get all messy. a little blood on the arms has never hurt anyone that I know of now. basically where one really needs to exert themselves is getting one down from the hill side. the trick is not to shoot one to far off the beaten path, which would be the road. now to say if I was to just sit in the truck and just watch them do all the hard work then it might be worth the $50 but now they want $200 to do all of the hard work. now if I was to help out in the messy work I'll keep the $50 tip you all want to give to them and call it even.


----------



## itchytriggerfinger

The last time I was there once I dumped my elk the guide was trying to get me to fill my wife's tag (she had a hard time hitting anything that trip) out of the same herd. I politely declined. Once we walked over to the elk 225 yards off the road and found her the guide asked if I'd start cleaning it while he went and got the truck. By the time he got there, who knows why it took him so long to get over there, I was done. He winched the elk into the back of the truck. He didn't/wouldn't put my wife on any more elk the rest of the day. So we got to come back later (which was so awesome to see that many elk in dec. it made hardware look like a petting zoo). Needless to say he didn't get a tip. The guy who took extra car of my wife in December did. Even with fog for the first 1 1/2 hours we were still back in Evanston by 9:30 -10. If I'm not satisfied with the service they'll get tipped accordingly. 
If you keep my drink at dinner full without me asking by golly you'll get 20% easy!:mrgreen:


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## RandomElk16

Itchy, the topped off drink is a must! I over tip all the time, but when service sucks I am not so nice...

Huge, I think the problem that Sage has and other people do is they look at it as "DLL" getting tipped and making a bunch of money. When they do not realize that the guide isn't getting much out of the cow hunts. Cheapest guided hunt I have EVER heard. Hop on any site and see what a cow elk guide costs on public ground. I would say rock bottom dollar from your sisters uncle is $1500. 

For people who hate "DLL" for the money they make: I invite you to invest in the land, labor, politics, and everything else that goes into it. A business that doesn't make money doesn't usually work. They SHOULD get something for you going up to premium land and being dang near guaranteed success, and in a day no less.


----------



## Bo0YaA

Trust me if I had millions of people giving me 10% of their income I WOULD invest in land, labor and what ever politics that goes into it. With that kind of income, I would just pay the guys that I hired to keep the heard in check a little more, not take and stick it to the average Joe. I'm not trying to offend anybody, just saying ;-). 
Oh and Huge, I want your job man! If you spend that kind of cash on the things you described...I want your job. I spent 4k on a used truck I use a lot, I'm the labor guy not the money guy behind my reloading, I buy a rifle when I sell a rifle, I spend maybe $200.00 on tags a year total for me and my daughters, I hunt 15 min from my house so only use $50.00 a year in gas, my binocs where a gift and ran $300.00, my ATV was $1k and I don't have a hunting dog. SO the fee of $200.00 + a tip I find to be a little excessive. Now will I end up paying it? Most likely because I want my daughter to have a high probability of success. Chances are however, the tip part will most defiantly have to be earned. Otherwise they can take it out of the $200.00. Call me cheap, call me whatever, I call myself an average Joe that needs some lube for what occurs if I do draw the tag.


----------



## Vanilla

I hear these kind of comments on the forums regularly. Exactly how is DL&L sticking it to the average Joe? I'd like an explanation on that one.


(Stream access aside, since we're specifically talking about big game hunting here.)


----------



## Bo0YaA

I feel like $300.00 (with expected tip) is sticking it to me. How about this, on top of the $50.00 for the tag itself, Im up for paying an additional $50.00 as a "just because" fee, using my own truck and gas, and I will tip the guide $100.00. What other costs are they needing to cover? I went on a CWMU hunt last year and all I had to pay was the tag fee and no it wasn't guided. None the less, from what I hear most tags are filled in a matter of hours. How many fees can possible accrue in that amount of time, especially if I'm willing to use my own truck and gas. Not to mention $100.00 for a few hours work to the guide is pretty darn good wages for doing something they love to do.


----------



## Nambaster

Huge29 said:


> Seriously?! You are going to complain over $50 tip? You couldn't pick up some amigos at Home Depot and make them do all of the work the guide will do for that much. I always get a chuckle over people who spend literally thousands of dollars a year on a truck that they only need for about 5-10 days/year, then thousands in reloading, about a thousand for each rifle (having about ten of them) couple hundred on tags, $400 on gas, $800 on binocs, $6,000 for an ATV, $300 for GPS, dog for $1,500 and his food all year...but $50 for a guy busting his arse packing hundreds of pounds of YOUR elk, gutting it, getting all bloody and nasty and that is the straw that broke the camel's back?! Seriously!? I just don't get it, I know we all have a sense of watching our dollars, but it is really ridiculously humurous putting it all in context of what we spend on our favorite little hobby and this $50 is likely the biggest factor (even bigger factor than using a crappy old rifle vs a brand new top of the line) in your success. You pay a waiter $10 for doing about 15 minutes worth of work on your behalf holding a few plates, but a guy busting his butt all day for two days deserves the same $10? I have nothing to do with any guides, but having worked in the service industry...if you have problem with such a tip, do everyone a favor and just stay home and complain about how expensive things are as you type from your $1,500 PC watching your $3,000 TV parked near your $50,000 truck in your $600,000 house.  Off of the soapbox.
> Put yourself in the guide's position and how much money would you need to be paid to make it half way worth your time, being that you have likely put in a lot of time scouting before hand, gas to get there, tires, truck maintenance, binocs, spotting scope, insurance, etc. I am guessing that the majority of us would laugh at the thought of doing all of that work for what they get paid.


The logical fallacy in this example is that the guy who spends that amount of money does not typically waste his money on hunting big game of the bald variety on DLL. He is better suited spending his money in the $3,750-$5000 range on a hunt for animals with headgear. In such case the hunt is a trophy hunt and the hunter has a preference and standards that need to be met which puts some pressure on the guide.

The DLL antlerless elk hunter is not in pursuit of a trophy cow elk with bronze stains on her ivories and gold fillings. The guide is there to make sure that animals are not wounded and that hunters are operating in accordance to ranch rules and ordinances. When was the last time that you tipped your parole officer?

78 buck deer, 89 bull elk, 2 bull moose, 41 buck pronghorn, 60 cow elk, and 75 doe pronghorn is what the CWMU receives to privately issue and sell to hunters for profit. The 200 elk tags are offered to the public in exchange for distribution of the above tags. If the $200.00 check for the guide fee is written out to DLL then it becomes the DLL responsibility to appropriately compensate their own henchmen. If the $200.00 check is written to the guide as a personal check I see no reason to write a 2nd check to the same individual.

I feel no sympathy for the guide as I volunteer to help people hunt on a regular basis and I do so because I friggin love hunting not because I want a tip or compensation. They have 345 paying clients that they receive in compensation for these 200 elk tags. If they want to make it a rule that every hunter pays the $200.00 toll that is fine. Am I promising to tip the guide?

If he feels that he is entitled to the private tags that he receives and I am a burden to him then absolutely not! But if he enjoys being in the outdoors and shows passion for what he does and shows some gusto.... then parting with my money becomes easier.

To be honest I won't apply to find out, but this is a genuine nickel and dime effort to squeeze a little bit more juice from the lemon peel which is really going to change the flavor of the CWMU program.

As a supporter of the CWMU program (which several of this forums members are not) I would suggest an alternative to such bad publicity to the unit and the overall program. Milking the antlerless cow teet is going to permit the excretion of fluids that might not appeal to everyone.

Sure they are a big and important CWMU, but this is coming very close to abducting a public tag offering and engaging it for private use which completely negates the purpose of the entire CWMU program. If other CWMU's follow suit I am in support with just throwing the whole program out the window and telling the operators to close shop and just charge tresspass fees on their properties. I would also wish their clients good luck at drawing a limited entry tag for their units which used to be CWMU units.

Which brings to question... If a guides own daughter draws a public tag does she pay the guide fee for her father to guide her? Does she write the check to DLL or to her father?

This is literally the privatization of a public offering.


----------



## Vanilla

Bo0YaA said:


> I feel like $300.00 (with expected tip) is sticking it to me. How about this, on top of the $50.00 for the tag itself, Im up for paying an additional $50.00 as a "just because" fee, using my own truck and gas, and I will tip the guide $100.00. What other costs are they needing to cover? I went on a CWMU hunt last year and all I had to pay was the tag fee and no it wasn't guided. None the less, from what I hear most tags are filled in a matter of hours. How many fees can possible accrue in that amount of time, especially if I'm willing to use my own truck and gas. Not to mention $100.00 for a few hours work to the guide is pretty darn good wages for doing something they love to do.


If you are willing to use your own truck and gas and do the work you love to do anyway, then you will literally pay Deseret nothing. Zip, nada, zilch. The ONLY fee you pay outside of the tag fee you pay to the state comes is if YOU select the guided option. If you don't want the guide, you pay nothing.

Last year I did the hosted option. It cost me nothing. No fee at all. I did throw my 'host' a tip at the end of the day just because I wanted to, not because I had to. I followed him around in my own truck. But he still put me on the elk, held a leg while I gutted it, and helped me lift it into my truck. Plus he was just a cool guy to talk with. But that was my choice, not something I had to do to hunt there.

That's my biggest confusion. Do people just not understand that you actually have the option to do it yourself? You don't have to have a guide. Did you guys actually read the notice that started this thread? Or is it that those that are mad are seriously THAT entitled that they think they should be able to hunt private property for free AND get supplied a guide at no cost as well? Again, I'm confused here...


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## Nambaster

TS30 said:


> If you are willing to use your own truck and gas and do the work you love to do anyway, then you will literally pay Deseret nothing. Zip, nada, zilch. The ONLY fee you pay outside of the tag fee you pay to the state comes is if YOU select the guided option. If you don't want the guide, you pay nothing.
> 
> Last year I did the hosted option. It cost me nothing. No fee at all. I did throw my 'host' a tip at the end of the day just because I wanted to, not because I had to. I followed him around in my own truck. But he still put me on the elk, held a leg while I gutted it, and helped me lift it into my truck. Plus he was just a cool guy to talk with. But that was my choice, not something I had to do to hunt there.
> 
> That's my biggest confusion. Do people just not understand that you actually have the option to do it yourself? You don't have to have a guide. Did you guys actually read the notice that started this thread? Or is it that those that are mad are seriously THAT entitled that they think they should be able to hunt private property for free AND get supplied a guide at no cost as well? Again, I'm confused here...


I think the confusion lies in this...

Rules of conduct:
Contact operator for ranch rules & polices
All buck deer and bull elk hunters will be guided
No guests allowed for male hunters 18 and older
Female hunters & youth under 18, 1 guest
*All antlerless elk hunters will be guided*, no guests for hunters 18 & older,
Female antlerless elk hunters and youth under 18, 1guest
All pronghorn hunters are un-guided
Wounding policy-once animal is wounded, no other animal may be shot

That seems to contradict the unguided guidelines offered by the CWMU


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## RandomElk16

Bo0YaA said:


> Trust me if I had millions of people giving me 10% of their income


This isn't tithing man.. Not 10% of your income.. 10% of your guide fee, which is a $20 lousy tip. Maybe you should start going to work and sending your checks back... I mean, why should these guys be paid?? 200 divided by 2 days. Could be 10 hour days. 10 bucks an hour and you get an elk? And they use their vehicle? People on food stamps make more money.

You mention the lube part? Draw a different tag... Or don't come out and say I will probably pay it for my daughter in the middle of dissing it. You just proved yourself wrong because the cost/benefit of your daughter having a fun, easy, successful hunt is well worth it.

Namb... What a ridiculous analogy about the guide and his daughter. I have skills that I provide for family and friends free, so do most people. That doesn't mean they go to a job and provide it for free. You just called the guides skills a public offering. What you do for work is now a public offering. Stop accepting a fee for it.

You keep putting up the old guidelines, subject to change at the owners discretion. It was a HOSTED OPTION. Not the full on guiding, but a "Don't shoot by that huge bull" service. Open your own business, run it how you want.

People complain so much about CWMU's and about DLL. Here is an idea, sell it like Durst is being sold. Turn it into vacation homes, cabins, recreation. Take away the hunting resource because we don't like the way the business is run. Tell you one thing, they are preserving a resource way better than the state does.


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## Nambaster

RandomElk16 said:


> This isn't tithing man.. Not 10% of your income.. 10% of your guide fee, which is a $20 lousy tip. Maybe you should start going to work and sending your checks back... I mean, why should these guys be paid?? 200 divided by 2 days. Could be 10 hour days. 10 bucks an hour and you get an elk? And they use their vehicle? People on food stamps make more money. I agree with this tithing and the LDS church has nothing to do with this unit
> 
> You mention the lube part? Draw a different tag... Or don't come out and say I will probably pay it for my daughter in the middle of dissing it. You just proved yourself wrong because the cost/benefit of your daughter having a fun, easy, successful hunt is well worth it.
> 
> Namb... What a ridiculous analogy about the guide and his daughter. I have skills that I provide for family and friends free, so do most people. That doesn't mean they go to a job and provide it for free. You just called the guides skills a public offering. What you do for work is now a public offering. Stop accepting a fee for it. The main question here is: Is the check written to DLL or is it a personal check to the guide?
> 
> You keep putting up the old guidelines, subject to change at the owners discretion. It was a HOSTED OPTION. Not the full on guiding, but a "Don't shoot by that huge bull" service. Open your own business, run it how you want. Old guidelines is all I needed to know buddy
> 
> People complain so much about CWMU's and about DLL. Here is an idea, sell it like Durst is being sold. Turn it into vacation homes, cabins, recreation. Take away the hunting resource because we don't like the way the business is run. Tell you one thing, they are preserving a resource way better than the state does.


Guided and non-guided options is all I needed to hear... Good luck and may the odds ever be in your favor...


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## Bo0YaA

The point about the 10% was, and correct me if I'm wrong, the church owns this unit does it not? I was saying if I had the same $$ they have I would buy up a huge chunk of property and manage it a little differently.

I can say what ever I want about the unit, I do believe they are getting a little greedy and sticking it to the average Joe. The only reason I would pay it is because there is no other unit that can offer a young hunter that kind of success. They know that, which is why the can charge $200.00 and not even give the option of using your own truck *with* a guide for less. I could care less about them gutting my animal, the only and I mean only service I care about is locating the herd due to the fact they limit the amount of time your allowed to hunt. If they will tell me where the animals are and let me drive my truck out to them shoot and take care of the animal myself for nothing other than the tag fee then I'm fine with it. However, I have a feeling with this new way of doing things, they wont help you with anything including info and still only give you two days to hunt. In doing so they lower the success rate so people are more or less forced into paying the fee if they want to be successful.

According to their own site:

" Although hunting is a key means of generating ranch revenue, 70% of hunters on DLL each year are given free hunting access" 

I call BS on that one sorry. If according to them hunting and herd management is such an important part of things, why not let it be what the CWMU program was intended to be....Stop treating it like a "Less expensive" version of the regular guided hunts. I believe they will continue to jack the prices up as long as people will continue to pay them. Which due to the high success rates may be until it is no longer cost affective for even the upper echelon hunters. Its all about $$$, always has been and always will be.


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## Vanilla

Nambaster, I get that is what was printed in the proc. but did you read the notice that started this thread? There is absolutely no ambiguity in there. The policies and options are clear as can be, even for a simple-minded dude like me. 

As for the question about who the check goes to...I believe the guide fee is paid straight to DL&L. But I've never done it so I can't speak from experience. I did the hosted option, and again paid NOTHING. 

Booyah, simple solution---put in for one of the THOUSANDS of cow elk tags available on strictly public land. Then you don't have to worry about the horrible management policies of the evil DL&L. You're right in that you can say whatever you want, but when you miss the boat so badly don't be shocked when you're told you sound silly in doing so. 

I seriously can't believe people think they should get free access to private property and receive guide services at no cost as well. Heaven help us with where society is going...


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## bigbr

*Bull chickens!*



TS30 said:


> No it wasn't. That statement is just simply 100% false. The guided option has had a cost for multiple years now.
> 
> I don't know why people get so fired up when the "D" word is thrown out. If you don't like Deseret's practices, don't apply for a tag there. It really, truly is that simple.


If Deseret Land and Livestock is going to have CWMU status then they must operate under the rules in which have been implemented and established. Mike has already posted the rules and why DLL will be in violation if they continue the cow hunt this year without equal access. And in this case it boils-down to a guided hunt. Now DLL has plenty of options; they can end all hunting which the church would prefer. They can high fence and apply for a private elk ranching status and then they can sell as many elk as they want to as long as they can show pedigree on said animals sold or harvested, however deer and pronghorn may pose a problem for hunting/sale as Utah does not yet allow these species to be under game ranch status if i am not mistaken. DLL could continue to abide by the rules and all will be well or they can hunt under DWR set guidelines and season. Very simple! Continue on with why someone is better or more pure than someone else.
Big


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## Vanilla

Those rules in the proc aren't DWR or state rules. That is the DWR posting a notice from the game managers at DL&L. And this notice appears to be replacing that one. They would not be violating anyone's rules but their own if you held them strictly to what was in the proc. 

Tell you what--draw the tag, demand a free guide, and then sue them in court when they don't give it based upon that and see how it works out.


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## Bo0YaA

TS30 your missing the point completely. Operate the CWMU according to the rules or simply don't be part of the program. Just sell discounted cow tag hunts that include a guide...Oh wait that's what they're doing now and pretending its actually part of the CWMU program.


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## Vanilla

I really don't think in the one that's missing the point here. All the attacks I've seen are supported only by a misunderstanding of the actual scenario. 

You can hunt a Deseret cow tag this year for nothing more than the cost of the state's tag. Again, I'm not missing anything...


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## Nambaster

TS30 is right,
You can draw a DLL tag and not pay for a guide. The issue is that the DNR website under the CWMU has not been updated. They still are abiding by the CWMU minimum of permitting 2 days to hunt, but at least they are abiding.


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## Bo0YaA

Ok answer me this, over the years, whats has been the one thing that has set that unit apart from every other unit? Ill answer for ya, success ratio. Now they want to charge you a fee for that success ratio. Its just like a drug dealer on the corner that sells drugs cheap to get people hooked then raises the price. I understand supply and demand but the CWMU program is not supposed to be run that way. Sure they give ya the option of going out blindly on a huge piece of property for 2 days without any info what so ever then impose these restrictions: NO ATVs, HORSES or other vehicles will be allowed to assist in the hunting/taking of the cow elk. NO ATVs, HORSES, or other vehicles will be allowed off road by public hunters to retrieve animals. You are allowed to bring one guest with you or party/group applicants to assist you in your hunt. Come on man, its not about wear and tear its about making money. Otherwise they would allow me to use my truck my gas and just pay the guide $100.00. All I'm saying is stop trying to make money off the hunt its self which is exactly what they are doing, and that's not the way a CWMU is supposed to be operated.


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## swbuckmaster

Booya I dont know any cwmu that allows you to use horses, scouting time, diy possy size groups, ect. I can guarantee you because I have hunted the deseret its one of the best cwmu programs out. Ill be hunting it again this year. You will be surprised when you see our photos is all im going to say at this point. 

If you have a problem with the church all I can say is the church has nothing to do with this hunt. If you have a problem with the guide lines dont apply. This gives my family better odds at the tags.


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## itchytriggerfinger

I'm actually excited about the changes. Hopefully enough people are unsuccessful enough that it takes just one point to draw. I've been up there enough that getting good shots on cow elk is very doable in 2 days (1 day really). I'd DIY and hunt it like any other cwmu but get to see even more animals than normal.


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## itchytriggerfinger

Since they need to kill 250+ cows every year to keep the herd in check. They'd have to give out more tags. Since the success rates will be lower. More $$ for the state..... More opportunity for me. Yay!!!!


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## Vanilla

It's clear there is some sort of larger issue here. The complaints are simply becoming non-sensical. Free access to private property. Free guide. Guaranteed high success rates on filling the tag. Those are the demands, and anything short of that means Deseret has the issues? Wow....I don't even know how to respond to that. 

I will simply say that I'm glad that is not what hunting means to me. To each their own.


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## Packout

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the claim that a notice, posted on this web-site, by a non-Deseret manager, somehow over-rides the CWMU page on the official UDWR website. UWN is big, but not that powerful and all reaching yet.

It really is more a crossed t's and dotted i's issue-- which should have been addressed by official CWMU reps and the official CWMU webpage on the UDWR. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out this year.


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## Vanilla

http://wildlife.utah.gov/maps/public/details_cwmu.php?cwmu_id=2008087

Here is the link that information comes from. What is Rule #1 under the 'Rules of Conduct?'

And how do we know this is the only place this notice is posted? Deseret, nor any other CWMU for that matter, certainly isn't responsible for updating and keeping accurate the DWR's website. That is the DWR's responsibility. But something tells me if you complain to them they are going to tell you that the first rule on all CWMU's is to contact the operator for their own rules. In fact, I took this directly from the DWR's CWMU website:

"If you draw a permit to hunt a CWMU, you must contact the CWMU operator to obtain the following:

-The dates you'll be allowed to hunt within the legal CWMU hunting season framework. Both you and the operator must schedule around each of your individual needs-please be realistic and patient. -A map of the CWMU showing access points and the acreage you'll be allowed to hunt. The CWMU should provide the same amount of acreage to both public and private hunters.
-*A copy of the CWMU's rules. CWMUs are allowed to develop rules of conduct for their unit. Examples of these rules may include: no preseason scouting; checking into and out of the unit daily; limited vehicle access; no overnight camping; a marksmanship test; and limiting the number of hunting companions. If you fail to abide by these rules, you might be asked to leave the CWMU."
*
You guys are pissing into the wind. Drop the agendas. It's just hunting, and if you don't like it, the 200 tags on Deseret are not even a drop in the bucket for what is available out there to tickle your fancy. Just go scratch your itch another way. I laugh at the criticism Deseret gets. It is one a very few CWMU's that actually take care of state hunters.


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## Blanding_Boy

All--

I asked Matt to post the original post/PSA from DLL as a courtesy to let as many folks know as possible that we are changing the way we have done things in the past on the ranch. We've made quite a few changes the past few years in the hunting program and we will continue to make more. This one in particular I could see need to be changed day one, not sure of an easy button to harvest 200+ cow elk but I felt the way we were doing it needed to be changed. With this particular change, I felt was important to get the word out to as many folks as possible so that they could make an educated decision whether or not they wanted to apply based on these changes.

I've certainly enjoyed reading some of the comments, some have been very positive and I thank you for them. Others have not and I certainly understand that hunting DLL is not and may not be for everyone. It has been interesting to read some folks comments, see how rumors get started etc. I hope to dispel a few myths with this post.

1--we did not ask for a bunch more permits and then were denied by UDWR. In fact we asked for about a 20% reduction in cow permits this year. This is primarily due to our harvest percentages the past few years and the number of cows we have been harvesting but also due to reduced pregnancy rates we have had the past 2-3 years.

2--Rules on UDWR page are those developed by DLL, they can and do change. These rules are not UDWR/Wildlife Board approved rules and are not needed to have a COR for a CWMU. They are simply there as a courtesy to those who are applying to let them know what the rules are. We all know rules change, we have changed one when it comes to public elk hunters. We are no longer requiring them to qualify in their shooting abilities and we are no longer requiring them to be guided, people still have the choice to be guided BUT we will no longer be offending that free of charge. We are offering precisly what RULE states we have to offer to the public, no more no less. In the past we certainly offered more and we felt that the negative comments, phone calls, negative press on this and other public forms and discussion with UDWR law enforcement that it was no longer in our best interest to offer these extras for free. Therefore, you all have choices, apply don't apply, if you draw go guided or DYI, lots of choices trying to accommodate everyone.

3--All of Deseret will still be open to hunting, in the past we have closed down certain 2 track roads to vehicles TO ALL HUNTING both private and public hunters. Doesn't mean you can use them to pack something out, it simply means you have to park your vehicle and walk a bit rather than drive a truck down it only to find out you can't get it back out.

4--Deseret has never allowed public hunters to bring horses, we no longer use horses to even pack out with.

Hope this helps dispell a few myths, nothing to serious just trying to adapt and change to make everyone (UDWR, public hunter) happy which we all know is nearly impossible to due.

If you have specific questions with regards to why, if you have specific questions about herd management you are welcome to email and i will do my best to answer your question. If you want to gripe or complain about the changes, the CWMU program in general, feel free to contact Scott McFarlane with UDWR.

Best

Todd
[email protected]
DLL Wildlife Manager


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## goofy elk

^^^ Now thats some GOOD info Todd !..Thanks.^^^^^^^


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## mack1950

thank you todd im a ole timer on the ranch so im pretty much up on the rules and I so affirm you folks have gone above and beyond in your fairness to the hunting public. hope the guided, non-guided works out better than the last time but again you are all only to familiar with those problems and im sure you have made adjustments.


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## Blanding_Boy

Mack--I'm certainly aware and frankly I'm concerned and still thinking of better methods to address the madness and I'm certainly a bit uncomfortable about implementing any changes BUT we are not going to fight UDWR on this one. They once approved with our methods but now do not so we are all just crossing our fingers hoping it will work. I think given the right conditions the right people we will be fine, unfavorable conditions and the wrong folks it could certainly be a disaster.

Todd


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## manysteps

Thanks Todd! Glad to see a voice who really knows what he's talking about weigh in here.

One question regarding this:



Blanding_Boy said:


> We are no longer requiring them to qualify in their shooting abilities


I that new this year? We were certainly required to "qualify" last year.

I only ask because we weren't able to attend the "usual" day, and so we had to make the trek to Lee Kay in order to get it done, and frankly, that was a pain in the a$$


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## Bo0YaA

swbuckmaster said:


> Booya I dont know any cwmu that allows you to use horses, scouting time, diy possy size groups, ect. I can guarantee you because I have hunted the deseret its one of the best cwmu programs out. Ill be hunting it again this year. You will be surprised when you see our photos is all im going to say at this point.
> 
> If you have a problem with the church all I can say is the church has nothing to do with this hunt. If you have a problem with the guide lines dont apply. This gives my family better odds at the tags.


I do, but that's beside the point.

So what does "assist" mean? does it mean driving around the property on the obvious roads or does it mean parking at the gate and walking in only? This is an honest question BTW. What I'm trying to get to the bottom of, is am I granted the same access in the same manner as a paying client. To the best of my understanding that's what the CWMU is all about, correct me if I'm wrong.

Most likely I will be accompanying my daughter on this hunt as well. I am upset because its not as easy for me to come up with $300.00 + tag fees + butcher fees as it is for some of you. I was really hoping she would be able to have a high success hunt for her at the cost Ive heard of in previous years. I am completely unfamiliar with this CWMU so to try and set off on our own and only have 2 days with just she and I, no info, no direction and no help means no better chances than anywhere else. So whats the point of saving points for 3-4 years to put in for it if your going to DIY? The way I feel is pay the fee to succeed or don't bother even putting in for it and it sucks plan and simple because she has been so excited to go on this particular hunt. The last thing I want to do at this point is try to explain how its just not affordable any longer. So I will find the **** fee money some where, get her a good successful hunt experience ( I hope) and try not to feel like I'm getting hosed in the process, because its my daughter and as parents that's what we do.
How I feel is irrelevant, that's obvious. Shut up and pay the fee or don't I get it, doesn't mean I have to agree with or like it, especially when it comes to my kid.

Oh and BTW, I find it amusing that by my comments you seem to think I have an issue with the church. At no point did I give any reason for you to assume such a thing so relax, and remember what "assume" stands for...


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## oldTimer

Bo0YaA said:


> I am upset because its not as easy for me to come up with $300.00 + tag fees + butcher fees as it is for some of you.


 Because some people have more money than you DLL should provide your daughter with a totally free, all expenses paid fully guided hunt?

Your little princess is entitled to whatever she wants as soon as she wants it whether or not you can afford it?

Some people have more money than me so I would like Ford Motor Company to provide my son with a totally free, brand new F250.

Sadly, it seems like way too many people have an entitlement mentality. It is destroying hunting and our country.


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## Bo0YaA

Give me a break, all I was hoping for is what's been provided up till this year, don't be an idiot. I would also suggest you never talk about my kids unless you really want to piss me off. You don't know me or them and until you do keep your mouth closed.


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## oldTimer

I have never hunted DLL but a quick look at the draw odds indicate that they are by far the hardest to draw most popular CWMU. I don't think they got to be number 1 by doing a crappy job. My guess is that they are doing a fantastic job, running a first rate operation, providing an awesome opportunity, and making almost everyone very happy.

It is sad how a few vocal malcontent entitled crybabies can ruin things for everyone.


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## goofy elk

Old timer------REALLY?

Your posts make you look like YOUR the one wanting to be 'entiled' ...

Now you have a little time and money sure seems like you want to price everyone
else out of the game..............BTW, I nominate post#120 as lamest for the week..


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## Bo0YaA

As a matter of fact, they got to be #1 by offering the things they have up to this point at the price they have up to this point. Hence my entire rant, now they go and jack the price up. Why is it so **** hard for some of you oldtimer thick headed folks to understand.....*I WAS JUST HOPING FOR THE SAME THING EVERYBODY UP UNTIL NOW HAS RECEIVED FOR THE SAME COST*. There, I spelled it out in capitol letters, used bold font and underlined it in hopes you and others will understand. If I could have used colored crayons and pictures I would have.....


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## swbuckmaster

Booya



Blanding_Boy said:


> All--
> 
> 2-Rules on UDWR page are those developed by DLL, they can and do change. These rules are not UDWR/Wildlife Board approved rules and are not needed to have a COR for a CWMU. They are simply there as a courtesy to those who are applying to let them know what the rules are. We all know rules change, we have changed one when it comes to public elk hunters. We are no longer requiring them to qualify in their shooting abilities and *we are no longer requiring them to be guided, people still have the choice to be guided BUT we will no longer be offending that free of charge.* We are offering precisly what RULE states we have to offer to the public, no more no less. In the past we certainly offered more and we felt that the negative comments, phone calls, negative press on this and other public forms and discussion with UDWR law enforcement that it was no longer in our best interest to offer these extras for free. Therefore, you all have choices, apply don't apply, if you draw go guided or DYI, lots of choices trying to accommodate everyone.
> 
> 3--All of Deseret will still be open to hunting, in the past we have closed down certain 2 track roads to vehicles TO ALL HUNTING both private and public hunters. Doesn't mean you can use them to pack something out, it simply means you have to park your vehicle and walk a bit rather than drive a truck down it only to find out you can't get it back out.
> 
> 4--Deseret has never allowed public hunters to bring horses, we no longer use horses to even pack out with.
> 
> Hope this helps dispell a few myths, nothing to serious just trying to adapt and change to make everyone (UDWR, public hunter) happy which we all know is nearly impossible to due.
> 
> If you have specific questions with regards to why, if you have specific questions about herd management you are welcome to email and i will do my best to answer your question. If you want to gripe or complain about the changes, the CWMU program in general, feel free to contact Scott McFarlane with UDWR.
> 
> Best
> 
> Todd
> [email protected]
> DLL Wildlife Manager


----------



## wyogoob

Blanding_Boy said:


> All--
> 
> I asked Matt to post the original post/PSA from DLL as a courtesy to let as many folks know as possible that we are changing the way we have done things in the past on the ranch. We've made quite a few changes the past few years in the hunting program and we will continue to make more. This one in particular I could see need to be changed day one, not sure of an easy button to harvest 200+ cow elk but I felt the way we were doing it needed to be changed. With this particular change, I felt was important to get the word out to as many folks as possible so that they could make an educated decision whether or not they wanted to apply based on these changes.
> 
> I've certainly enjoyed reading some of the comments, some have been very positive and I thank you for them. Others have not and I certainly understand that hunting DLL is not and may not be for everyone. It has been interesting to read some folks comments, see how rumors get started etc. I hope to dispel a few myths with this post.
> 
> 1--we did not ask for a bunch more permits and then were denied by UDWR. In fact we asked for about a 20% reduction in cow permits this year. This is primarily due to our harvest percentages the past few years and the number of cows we have been harvesting but also due to reduced pregnancy rates we have had the past 2-3 years.
> 
> 2--Rules on UDWR page are those developed by DLL, they can and do change. These rules are not UDWR/Wildlife Board approved rules and are not needed to have a COR for a CWMU. They are simply there as a courtesy to those who are applying to let them know what the rules are. We all know rules change, we have changed one when it comes to public elk hunters. We are no longer requiring them to qualify in their shooting abilities and we are no longer requiring them to be guided, people still have the choice to be guided BUT we will no longer be offending that free of charge. We are offering precisly what RULE states we have to offer to the public, no more no less. In the past we certainly offered more and we felt that the negative comments, phone calls, negative press on this and other public forms and discussion with UDWR law enforcement that it was no longer in our best interest to offer these extras for free. Therefore, you all have choices, apply don't apply, if you draw go guided or DYI, lots of choices trying to accommodate everyone.
> 
> 3--All of Deseret will still be open to hunting, in the past we have closed down certain 2 track roads to vehicles TO ALL HUNTING both private and public hunters. Doesn't mean you can use them to pack something out, it simply means you have to park your vehicle and walk a bit rather than drive a truck down it only to find out you can't get it back out.
> 
> 4--Deseret has never allowed public hunters to bring horses, we no longer use horses to even pack out with.
> 
> Hope this helps dispell a few myths, nothing to serious just trying to adapt and change to make everyone (UDWR, public hunter) happy which we all know is nearly impossible to due.
> 
> If you have specific questions with regards to why, if you have specific questions about herd management you are welcome to email and i will do my best to answer your question. If you want to gripe or complain about the changes, the CWMU program in general, feel free to contact Scott McFarlane with UDWR.
> 
> Best
> 
> Todd
> [email protected]
> DLL Wildlife Manager


Great post, thank you Todd Black.

.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Booya, blanding boy already posted what you can expect. I highlighted it for easy reading. You can expect the same hunt as previous years but the only difference is you will have to pay for a guide if you want a guide. Thats it! 

Now you can still do a cow hunt anywhere in this state if you want. The odds are pretty good at success and you can have more time to hunt. if you put in the time and hard work the odds are so good I've never eaten a tag. My 12 year old daughter even killed a cow on her first hunt with a Wasatch Front tag. She did hike 9 miles in two days in snow up to my waste with 20 -30 mph winds in some places to get it done but we were able to get it done in a weekend.


----------



## Vanilla

Booyah, the cost isn't $300 plus tag fees plus butcher fees. It is $200 for a guide on Deseret. Last year it was $150. And the suggested tip is the same as it was last year. They raised the cost of the guide $50. The price of the tag and the potential cost of a butcher are not set by Deseret, that goes for any hunt. So don't bring that up in your rant. You keep bringing up questions and complaints that have been answered at least once, and in some cases multiple times. 

The only thing more of what someone will pay today vs what they've paid in the past for a guide is $50. Total. That is hardly 'jacking the prices up' on you. The cost of operation has gone up for them (cost of gas, maintenance on vehicles, time away from other jobs and family, etc) just like it has for the rest of us. And that is less than a tank of gas you would use to scout a public unit for one day. Like has been said before, this is a steal if you're looking for a guided hunt. 

And yes, if that $50 is a big deal...you have the option to not pay it. You can do it for free. Sorry, but it was people like you are here constantly complaining about Deseret that got the hosted option taken away in the first place. So you find little sympathy here from me. Blame those that have sat and complained year after year, not the managers. They are responding to what people say they want to see there. 

Like I said back on page one....some whiners got a good thing taken away for your daughter. Blame them.


----------



## oldTimer

goofy elk said:


> Old timer------REALLY?
> 
> Your posts make you look like YOUR the one wanting to be 'entiled' ...
> 
> Now you have a little time and money sure seems like you want to price everyone
> else out of the game..............BTW, I nominate post#120 as lamest for the week..


REALLY?

Are you serious or just being a troll?

You honestly feel that me backing DLL for charging $200 for a two day fully guided hunt is wanting to "price everyone else out of the game"?

You have mentioned on this forum that you offer a guide service. Please, do tell, how much do you charge for two full days of guiding including your truck, gas, time, gutting, packing, etc?

If you charge more than $100 a day I nominate you for the biggest pile of #%#!!* hypocrite award.


----------



## oldTimer

Bo0YaA said:


> As a matter of fact, they got to be #1 by offering the things they have up to this point at the price they have up to this point. Hence my entire rant, now they go and jack the price up. Why is it so **** hard for some of you oldtimer thick headed folks to understand.....*I WAS JUST HOPING FOR THE SAME THING EVERYBODY UP UNTIL NOW HAS RECEIVED FOR THE SAME COST*. There, I spelled it out in capitol letters, used bold font and underlined it in hopes you and others will understand. If I could have used colored crayons and pictures I would have.....


The guide service used to be free, then they started charging $150, now they charge $200. Expenses like gas and truck maintenance continue to rise which causes prices to rise. Understand?

I remember when a movie ticket was $1.50 and popcorn at the theater was $0.25. I wish I could get the same thing for the same price now but I do not think theater owners are bad for charging what they do now.

IMHO $200 is an amazing unbeatable deal and that they will still be the number 1 CWMU. The going rate for guided hunting is around $500 a day. It is unbelievable that people are whining. If you do not like it you can DIY at DLL or put in for someplace else.


----------



## oldTimer

Bo0YaA said:


> Give me a break, all I was hoping for is what's been provided up till this year, don't be an idiot. I would also suggest you never talk about my kids unless you really want to piss me off. You don't know me or them and until you do keep your mouth closed.


I was talking about you not your kids.


----------



## goofy elk

Oldtimer,

My comments toward you are more about your overall posts .....

You've called alot of other folks out as being/feeling "entitled" ...

Then YOU turnaround and say permits should be sold on a free market ??

Then YOU claim odds are one in a miilion, and those without points will never draw..

You seem to be the one that feels like your "entitled' to permits....Just say'in....


----------



## oldTimer

Goofy

Fair enough... I have and do advocate raising application and/or tag prices as the only realistic way of improving draw odds. The laws of economics dictate that whenever any commodity is offered for less than its true market value there will be a shortage. It does not matter if the commodity is milk shakes or elk tags. But that is not what this thread is about. This thread is about cow elk hunting on a CWMU. I'm interested to know if you feel that DLL is offering a great opportunity at an incredible price or if they are trying to screw people.


----------



## hatch000

I think there are many who have an issue with what is taking place to harvest those animals and whether it is ethical or safe or fair chase and I am one of them. I can understand charging more for guided hunts when your beating the crap out of your truck as a guide chasing those herds all over the place through the sage brush. I guess page 40 of the field guidebook doesn't apply to CWMU units?


*Use of vehicle or aircraft *
_Utah Code § 23-20-3 and Utah Admin. Rule R657-5-14 _
You may not use an airplane or any other airborne vehicle or device, or any motorized terrestrial or aquatic vehicle (except a vessel)-including snowmobiles and other recreational vehicles-to take protected wildlife, including big game. 
Also, you may not take protected wildlife that are being chased, harmed, harassed, rallied, herded, flushed, pursued or moved by an 
aircraft or any other vehicle or transportation device listed above. 

It's still a public resource. No matter which way you look at it. Laws are suppose to be followed by landowners, depredation tag holders, farmers, hunters, everyone. PERIOD! That includes every guide, hunter, or anyone associated with the DLL. Including you Mr Black.

Isn't it interesting that their argument that I've heard in the past concerning this issue is that "it is alot of work to fill that many cow tags." But yet I've personally seen them using helicopters to push the animals back onto their property. Doesn't their actions seem alittle hypocritical? To me they do. 

Forget about how much they charge for the guided hunts. What should be pissen sportsmen off is how these cow hunts are conducted.-O,-

For the sake of your argument Mr Black... if it really is that much work for your operation to fill all the 200 cow tags, that you and your crew is willing to break the law, don't you think you've bitten off more than you can chew? Maybe the plate is alittle too full? I know you want to make money and don't want your operation to have a bad name. But at what lengths are you willing to do so?

I hope the changes you are trying to make there will consider the conduct in which the tags are being filled.


----------



## Huge29

hatch000 said:


> I think there are many who have an issue with what is taking place to harvest those animals and whether it is ethical or safe or fair chase and I am one of them. I can understand charging more for guided hunts when your beating the crap out of your truck as a guide chasing those herds all over the place through the sage brush. I guess page 40 of the field guidebook doesn't apply to CWMU units?
> 
> *
> Use of vehicle or aircraft
> *_Utah Code § 23-20-3 and Utah Admin. Rule R657-5-14
> _You may not use an airplane or any other airborne vehicle or device, or any motorized terrestrial or aquatic vehicle (except a vessel)-including snowmobiles and other recreational vehicles-to take protected wildlife, including big game.
> Also, you may not take protected wildlife that are being chased, harmed, harassed, rallied, herded, flushed, pursued or moved by an
> aircraft or any other vehicle or transportation device listed above.
> It's still a public resource. No matter which way you look at it. Laws are suppose to be followed by landowners, depredation tag holders, farmers, hunters, everyone. PERIOD!
> 
> Isn't it interesting that their argument that I've heard in the past concerning this issue is that "it is alot of work to fill that many cow tags." But yet I've personally seen them using helicopters to push the animals back onto their property. Doesn't their actions seem alittle hypocritical? To me they do.
> 
> Forget about how much they charge for the guided hunts. What should be pissen sportsman off is how these cow hunts are conducted.-O,-


BREAKING NEWS...we finally have a first hand sighting of helicopters being used; it is usually 12th person in most of these reports. So, when you got the tag# and reported them what happened?


----------



## hatch000

Others speaking about entitlement makes me think of exactly what takes place on the DLL. Laws don't apply to them right Huge29? A response like that? Really? That's it? Pretty sad.:?


----------



## oldTimer

hatch000 said:


> Others speaking about entitlement makes me think of exactly what takes place on the DLL. Laws don't apply to them right Huge29?


Do you have any evidence or are you guilty of slander?

As I've mentioned in previous posts, DLL is the most popular CWMU in the state. They must be doing an excellent job of managing the wildlife. There sure are a lot of hunters that want to hunt there and are willing to apply in the draw for years or pay top dollar to do so.


----------



## Huge29

hatch000 said:


> Others speaking about entitlement makes me think of exactly what takes place on the DLL. Laws don't apply to them right Huge29? A response like that? Really? That's it? Pretty sad.:?


I don't know anything about this place, never been anywhere near it, so I frankly don't care if they have a high fence unicorn and pegasus operation, but I am always impressed with all of the helicopter stories that I read about on here. With all of the millions of cell phones with cameras out there and all of these stories, yet none of them have a single picture or video, it just defies common sense. Combine that with the allegations always being against one of the two most successful operations in the state, I don't think that it is any coincidence that the allegations are only thrown out against these two groups. Generally, when comments that border on slander in alleging illegal activities there is generally some supporting evidence. The helicopter allegations have just become cliche.
If you didn't report it, shame on you, you certainly should report it; if you actually are just reporting the story you heard from your brother's ex wife's father in law's barber's gardner as most of these stories are...well thanks for playing.


----------



## Springville Shooter

Come on Huge.....everyone knows that helicopters and wolves are in a different dimension in this state and cannot be photographed. Any Super Moderator should know that.....heck Wyogoob wrote the book!:mrgreen:------SS


----------



## Nambaster

I am a first hand witness of the low flying helicopters on DLL. I cannot testify about the bags of flour or wildlife harassment but I have observed helicopters low enough to be hit with a rock thrown by hand. 

It seems that the off season has a bunch of forum members a little cranky... Let's get out and do some hunting! Shed hunting can do wonders for cabin fever. :grin:


----------



## Critter

I'll suggest to anyone out there that see those low flying helicopters to get the tail number and report them to the DOW or even the FAA and tell them how low that they were flying.


----------



## Dunkem

Now I probobly should stay out of this,but from what Im reading most of this is about a cow elk hunt.Well,if it was me hunting I would gladly pay the fee,and the tip would be paid depending on service.Working in the service industry for almost 50 years gives you a pretty good look at the type of customers there are out there.Now I dont accept tips and never have,and if they are insistant I take it and it goes to our store party.I do however take compliments the same way as I would a tip.I go out of my way to make sure every :guest: is treated like I would like my wife treated.You are going to have your jerks,and I can deal with them.So if this guide puts me on a nice cow,for the meat mind you,helps me gut, skin, and load,well he is going to get a reward.Now if your young, full of @@@@ and vinegar have at it ,do it yourself.Me I would get the guide and have fun.Just my humble opinion :mrgreen:


----------



## wyogoob

Nambaster said:


> I am a first hand witness of the low flying helicopters on DLL. I cannot testify about the bags of flour or wildlife harassment but I have observed helicopters low enough to be hit with a rock thrown by hand.
> 
> It seems that the off season has a bunch of forum members a little cranky... Let's get out and do some hunting! Shed hunting can do wonders for cabin fever. :grin:


Nambaster, can you tell the flour sack story? It'll save me from using our search engine. We have a lot of newbies that probably haven't heard it yet. Don't leave out a thing, please. I think it would cheer our members up.

.


----------



## wyogoob

This was a good one until longbow fessed up he was THE helicopter pilot.

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/23888-helicopter-herding-4.html

.


----------



## GBell

I get a kick out of "Oldtimer Peay,
Once you price hunters out of the game
You lose it all. Public lands, Public wildlife
And Public opinion concerning all of the above. 
The only reason hunting exists today is because
It's accessable to all. 

Concerning the DLL hunt. I don't like this trend
Of bullying a hunter in to paying a guide. I can see
And fully support situations where a CWMU operator
Wants public hunters supervised, but telling prospects
That they can expect below 20% success for a draw
Hunt is not right. Sounds a lot like captive consumerism. 

I drew west lake CWMU pronghorn back in 05. 
I was picked up by the operator, guided to several 
Different herds and finally put in position to kill
A nice buck. He wanted to dress the animal, I'm OCD
With how I dress animals so I called him off and did it
Myself as well as dragging the pronghorn back to the truck. 

The guide ended the day with no charges to me for the hunt
But a $100.00 tip for busting his ass and going above and beyond in locating
The herds and making sure I got the animal I wanted. 

Supervision on private property I can fully support,
Requiring a hunter to pay a guide for a better chance
At harvest I can't. 

The .02cents of a fat bald guy.


----------



## Huge29

GBell said:


> Concerning the DLL hunt. I don't like this trend
> Of bullying a hunter in to paying a guide. I can see
> And fully support situations where a CWMU operator
> Wants public hunters supervised, but telling prospects
> That they can expect below 20% success for a draw
> Hunt is not right. Sounds a lot like captive consumerism.


Are you reading the same thread that I am? There are dozens and dozens of CWMU's to choose from, granted this is the single largest one by a wide margin, but it is only one of many. I haven't ever hunted a CWMU, but tens of thousands of others have for many years and the complaints are few and far between. Bullying seems like a liberal term to me, they simply present the facts of what the statistics are everywhere else; if you prefer ignorance I can't argue that. Especially when we are talking about $300...seriously? Tell me that you dont spend directly or indirectly $4,000-$10,000/year in hunting/camping/fishing crap every year, what is another $300 that increases your odds from 20% to 85%? Seems like a no brainer for anyone with a brain IMHO.


----------



## GBell

So all CWMU's should have the guide option??
For pay??

Who owns the wildlife Huge??


----------



## swbuckmaster

You dont have to use the guide! You are welcome to hunt it diy at no charge BUT if you choose to use a guide its 200 hundred. Last year the guide was free but a bunch of babies b&m'ed and now it will cost ya. 

I dont have a truck. 200 and a strong back looks like a steal of a deal for a meat hunt. If my wife didnt have a deseret buck tag id be all over the cow tag this year.


----------



## Huge29

GBell said:


> So all CWMU's should have the guide option??
> For pay??
> 
> Who owns the wildlife Huge??


You are right, I now agree with you.


----------



## GBell

Glad you agree Huge. Although
I figured a good conservative would
Be for less regulation, not more.


----------



## Vanilla

SW- A guide was not free last year. It was $150 for the guided option last year. They have simply increased the cost of the guided option $50 to keep up with the rising costs of business we face in this world. 

GBell, you don't get it. At all. You have 3 choices when it comes to Deseret cow tags: 1- Draw and pay for a guide for $200. 2- Draw and go at it alone with one guest. 3- If you don't like either of those, don't apply there but for one of the thousands of other tags available in dozens of other units around the state. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything here against their will. 

This place is beginning to sound more and more like a teenage girl sleepover party. We need hunting to start so the whiners can move on to something else, like how someone stole "their spot" in the national forest, or something.


----------



## swbuckmaster

It would take me $100$-200 in fuel to drive up their with my brothers truck drive around hunting and then drive home. It also puts on miles and I risk blowing a tire. 

How dare anyone to charge for a service! 

Try and get a guide on public land for a cow hunt and see what the cost are!


----------



## RandomElk16

Who do the animals belong to? That keeps being asked... Its who feeds those animals through the winter, cares for the land that they live on, manages the herds for optimum growth. Sure it is for a profit. Couldn't be a business if it wasn't. I am all for various methods of conservation and the CWMU program is one such method. 

Not sure why people struggle with this. Most of you are typing from a work computer, getting paid... I need to find the forum where they complain about you charging for your service.


----------



## GBell

TS, I get it just fine. There are incentives given
To CWMU's to become part of the CWMU program. Season dates
Permits and the ability to "include" some public
Lands to reach acreage requirements. If any CWMU wants
To start adding stipulations to public hunters that will
Increase success to one hunter that spends money but
Not for another that won't it ain't right. 

This program wasn't set up to be a back door welfare system
For guides, it was set up as a win / win for landowners and hunters. 

I may be wrong, but it would seem that a change like this
Should go through the public input process. I don't
Remember hearing about any such discussion at the
RACs but as I said I could have missed it. 

It's wrong to have a multi tiered access system
For public hunters in this system. Either guide them
All for free or for a fee or don't guide at all.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Gordy its free if you dont use the guide. You still have access to the entire unit. 

I guess im slow how is this a problem?


----------



## Vanilla

No, you don't get it. Read the CWMU rules on the DWR's CWMU webpage, and then come back and answer your own questions. They are all there. Again, your questions clearly show you don't get it. You don't understand the rules. 

If you have an issue overall with the CWMU program, that is your opinion. But blast them all, not just DL&L. As I've said it before, DL&L is one of the few that treat public hunters equal to the people that buy tags. All these people that have the ability to pay for a guide if they want are all public hunters. Everyone has the option, not just a few. Just like everyone has an option to pay a guide to take them out on the San Juan on the LE early rifle hunt. Just because some choose to pay the money and others choose to go at it alone (ever heard of freedom of choice???) doesn't mean the state or the CWMU has set up a tiered access system. Again, no...you don't get it. Not even close.

If we subscribe to what your saying, then every single public draw hunt violates your rule, because I can choose to hire a guide on literally any tag available in the state of Utah if I have the money. And doing so will most definitely increase my chance of harvest. You should give up hunting. It clearly violates your moral compass.


----------



## GaryFish

Or to look at it another way.

*ALL* hunters that draw a DLL cow elk tag, are allowed two days to hunt for their cow elk, free of charge. DLL asks that hunters keep vehicles on established roads within the ranch. Hunters may bring one other person to assist in the hunt and harvest.It is anticipated that hunter success will be similar to most public lands hunts.

If you would like, you can hire one of the guides that are intimately familiar with the lands, herd movements, patterns, and behaviors, to serve as your hunting guide. Fee is $200. Service includes being taken out by the guide, in the guide's truck. Guide will assist in locating, and assisting the hunter in harvest, location, and recovery of the elk, and will field dress, and load the harvested elk in your vehicle at the end of the hunt. It is anticipated that those using the guides will achieve 80-90% success rate.

I'm not sure the tadoo about any of that. Seems very reasonable to me. And as has been said, if you don't like the terms, don't apply. I think the fact that they are putting out word about the changes before people apply expecting something different.


----------



## GBell

TS ANY CWMU that shows preference to any
Public hunter is just selling another guided hunt. 
I don't care if it's $5.00 or $5000.00. 

Many said the same thing about the Wealth tag program 
When it started. Look where it's at now. We manage
Our herds in large part for a return on these
Tags. The same thing will happen here. What
Happens when EVERY CWMU decides $1000.00
Is a fair fee to go from 20% success to 80% success. 

None of this is in the spirit of this program. 

PACKOUT, I'm interested in your opinion here.


----------



## Vanilla

They are not giving preference to any hunter. You. Don't. Get. It. I can't say that any more simply or clearly. Sorry dude...you don't get it.


----------



## GBell

TS are the success rates for guided vs non guided the same??


----------



## Blanding_Boy

Gordy--we don't have that data (harvest success guided vs. unguided) yet.

We are just theorizing that becuase DLL is 338 square miles and the elk are not evenly distributed across the ranch that non-guided (those who CHOOSE) to DYI who are not familiar with the ranch will likely have difficulties finding and then harvesting the elk. Versus those who (CHOOSE to) go guided with someone who has spent many hours scouting/looking, knows the roads, knows where the elk are likely to be on the ranch.

Its just a theory, I will let you know next year, we could be completely wrong in our hypothesis.

This really is kind of like paying someone to come install, show you how to work, and maintain a copy machine vs. someone buying it on their own, figuring out how it works and how to service it all on their own. You actually can CHOOSE to have SERVICE or CHOOSE not to have SERVICE. Do you get it???

Todd


----------



## GBell

Todd, you are speaking of a private purchase in your
Analogy. 

I'm speaking of equal access to publicly owned
Wildlife.

What if I wanted to hire my own "guide"? 
Guidelines prohibit me from doing so unless the guide
Is youth or female, correct?


----------



## GBell

And, are the dates for the guided hunters the 
Same as for non guided??


----------



## Blanding_Boy

Gordy, it still is a private purchase dude, that's what we can't see through each others eyes. Its still 100% equal access 2 days anywhere on the ranch they want to go. Nope on different days, rule doesn't say what days we have to give just 2 days. Guided will be inbetween non-guided. I fail to see how when matters here on DLL.


----------



## oldTimer

GBell and BoOYaA if you work really really really hard on your reading comprehension skills someday you will able to understand the hunting options and opportunities available at DLL that Blanding Boy and others have explained many many times now. There are General Educational Development (GED) programs available that can help you.


----------



## GaryFish

Todd would have to answer it, but it seems if you CAN bring your own guide if you DIY. They allow you to bring a helper, so call them a guide if you want. But think of this. Does that guide know every road, canyon, ridge, trail, and elk hang-out on the Ranch? Will that guide take you out in his truck, burning his gas, getting it beat up, just so you can get a shot? Will your guide bust his back finding the elk you shot? Will your guide then field dress, drag, and load the elk you shot? For $200? 

If they will, then good on 'ya. Bring 'em along. 

My take after what, 17 pages of discussion here, is that some people just don't like DLL. And regardless of what they do, how they do it, or anything else, people won't like it. 

I've been lucky enough to experience cow elk hunts up there twice - once when DLL managed it directly, and once since Wild Country took it. Both were great experiences. The first time there was no fee for the guides, though I tipped them. Looking back, I should have tipped them more for all they did. The second time, I paid the $150 guide fee AND tipped my guide. And I didn't even harvest an elk on that trip. And I STILL felt like the guide more than earned the money. 

My own thought is that trying this approach for a year or two, they'll start giving out the bare minimum of tags to the public, instead of pretty much all of them. I could see them including a cow tag with the hunting lease or fishing memberships there. And I could see them just selling guided cow elk tag hunts for $1,000. With all the complaining from folks, I know I'd go there if I ran the place. At BEST, $200 guide fee = breaking even for the day. 

My prediction is that after a season of unaccompanied hunters wounding animals they don't recover, or shooting antlered elk on accident, or getting their trucks stuck because their Honda CRV really isn't an off road vehicle, and they end up pulling people out of the ditch, self guided hunters will just prove to be too problematic. Seems that is why they went to all-guided hunts years ago anyway.


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## Vanilla

Garyfish, 

You nailed. There are some people that don't like Deseret and no matter what the facts say, they will complain about some nonsense or the other. But that says more about them than it does about Deseret. 

I guarantee nobody can show me a CWMU that takes care of state hunters the way Deseret does. No other. If you think you can, let's hear it. People are getting bent out of shape about a freaking population management hunt. Cow tags. Meat hunts. And not being able to have someone give then a service for free!!! Lunacy. Just think how pissed they'd be if they heard about how my old man was provided TWO guides...for free, on his bull tag in 2008 and they completely bent over backwards for him because of his health limitations to get him an 11 year old mature 6 point. That kind of treatment of a state hunter is just unacceptable! Evil Deseret...


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## Mr Muleskinner

the guys that I hunted with up at Skull Crack are awesome. Can't compare to DLL because I have never hunted it but Clint and his guys up at Skull Crack were top shelf.


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## Packout

I was told my name came up again in this thread and I really was going to be done with it as arguments on the internet rarely lead anywhere, but...... Just an FYI for some of the readers, I served as the Sportsmen's Rep on the CWMU Committee for 5 years and I helped formulate the current Rule. I know what was intended and I know what is written in the Rule. In no way am I trying to bash Deseret-- I spoke to Todd just the other day- no ill feelings there. 

One last time-- If a CWMU requires a guide then the guide is FREE (of course a public hunter can tip if he wants). If a CWMU does not require a guide then they should not have the specific Rule that "all antlerless hunters will be guided" in the OFFICIAL PUBLIC NOTICE on the UDWR site. Is it really that hard to understand? If a CWMU OFFERS a guide service then that is at an extra cost to the public hunter.

I see exactly what GBell is saying-- he is saying that a CWMU "Could" make it so the DYI hunter is "less" successful and offer guided hunts at a fee for more success. Which in turn would make it so the CWMU is selling success to the public hunter. That is not the intent of the CWMU program. It is a slippery slope that would hurt the CWMU program in the long-run. The Private Hunter is not more important than the public hunter AND one public hunter is not more important than another. The program fails when the PERCEPTION is someone received more because they paid or had contacts with the CWMU. The program was faltering before we re-wrote the Rule to protect the public hunter. 

TS30- I could give you the names of a dozen + CWMUs which treat the public antlerless elk hunter better than Deseret. Of course Deseret has always done a decent job and the fact they deal with so many public hunters (because of the sheer size of the ranch) makes it hard for them. But there are many out there who offer way more than 2 days or free guides (because they require them) or both. Lots of good CWMUs in the program, Deseret included. 

So that is my last post on the subject. Feel free to agree to disagree or to lower yourselves by calling names if you disagree with my viewpoint. If you want an honest discussion PM me and we'll talk. Best to everyone who puts in.


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## Vanilla

Packout- I am not just talking about cow hunts, but all hunts. Even if you want to stick to cow hunts I call bogus on those names. Let's hear them! Let's hear specific examples of what you mean. I've given examples of why I feel the way I do. Let's hear what you have to say on others. If other CWMU's are doing that good they deserve a little good publicity.

I have personal experiences of my own hunts and hunts of my family that have created my perspective on this, not just something I read on an anonymous Internet forum.


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## hatch000

When it comes to this thread...All I care about is if page 40 of the field regulation booklet is being followed by *everyone*.
Say what you may. 
Ask yourself two things? What does fair chase mean to you AND why does the state make those guidelines on page 40?

I don't care who you are or what group you are part of, I have a problem when I see those guidelines on page 40 not being followed. I have personally witnessed it by individuals while out in the field and by a CWMU operation.


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## GBell

TS, I have no problem with DL&L until now. 

I've known Todd for several years and by no
Means am I questioning his character. 

Thanks PO, good to receive understanding from someone
That actually understands and was part of the 
Program. 

Oldtimer


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## oldTimer

GBell said:


> Oldtimer. .


I decline your offer since I am a happily married heterosexual.

I do not judge you for being a but I do feel that this type of offer is totally inappropriate for this forum. Hopefully the moderators (huge where are you?) will provide you with some guidance.


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## Dunkem

Gents, I edited both your posts,Read the rules:RULES:


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## GBell

I apologize to Oldtimer. I prolly shouldn't have told
You to and at the risk of spiraling this thread
Out of control with a sophomoric comeback
Let's just leave Cliven Bundy with the last word on my
Mistake. 

Again I apologize.


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## oldTimer

Thank you GBell.

I want to apologize to you and BoOYaA. I said some things that were uncalled for.


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## bigbr

*Lost in space......hello..Huston?*



oldTimer said:


> Goofy
> 
> Fair enough... I have and do advocate raising application and/or tag prices as the only realistic way of improving draw odds. The laws of economics dictate that whenever any commodity is offered for less than its true market value there will be a shortage. It does not matter if the commodity is milk shakes or elk tags. But that is not what this thread is about. This thread is about cow elk hunting on a CWMU. I'm interested to know if you feel that DLL is offering a great opportunity at an incredible price or if they are trying to screw people.


OT,
Your class on economics is a bit flawed. You fail to understand capitalism. First off capitalism is designed around free markets without governmental interference. The commodities, you so boldly refer to, have some of the highest governmental controls associated with their production and distribution of any I could think of save one; pharmaceuticals. Agriculture products have been so governmentally manipulated that you could hardly call it a free market. In fact the currency manipulation that is taking place right as i type, all but destroy any sense of fair or free markets in this or any other country.

One must never forget that capitalism and free markets ALWAYS EXIST! If government puts undue restriction, control, tariffs or taxation on goods or services, the act of so doing moves the market underground and away from governmental controls. Black-markets can have devastating effects and one only need look at the Continent of Africa to see how agriculture and wildlife have been manipulated and in some cases destroyed.

In this case we are talking about elk and the manager has clearly stated that the elk are not equally distributed about some 338 square miles of the ranch and in the past guides have been required for both paying and non paying hunters on the ranch. Again we are not talking public property we are talking public wildlife on private property. The ranch manager has also stated that a public hunter will be at a disadvantage because he will not be given enough time to scout or occupy the property, but for an additional fee will be provided a guide that does know where the elk are and will take you to said animals. There in is the problem of providing equal access to the public draw hunter and creating a monopoly all in one swoop. I would hope that i would not have to explain the SHERMAN ACT. Where is Pro when you need him.
Big PS notice I did not even have to call you names.


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## bigbr

One other aspect that has not been explored here is that the CWMU has been given the opportunity to charge whatever price the market will demand for their premium hunts. Not only is it implied but it is expected that any and all additional cost to the public hunter, out side of drawing a permit, will be deferred to the paying client! 

If the CWMU operator can not manage around this then he or she should not be in business!
Big


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## bossloader

so how much would a permit cost if you wanted to hunt cow elk on the property I am sure they would charge for that right? I would pay $200 it is a meat hunt I want MEAT for my freezer can't understand the problem.


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## swbuckmaster

I think it was stated earlier in this thread that the regular joe public cant buy a cow tag. They all go to big corporate companies that bought elk packages.


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## GBell

The problem Boss, is DL&L doesn't own the elk.


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