# Rifle elk hunts during the rut



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Over the past few years I have heard the argument numerous times that holding the rifle hunt during the elk hunt is keeping the DWR from issuing a lot more LE tags. Over this time, I have never felt that this idea were true for two reasons: 1) In comparing Utah's rifle success rates to comparable units in other states where the rifle hunt is not in the rut, I have found the success rates very similar and 2) If the archery hunt or muzzleloader hunts were moved to the rut, the success rates of these hunts would jump offsetting any reductions the success rates of the rifle hunt would see.

But, to test my thought further, I looked at the harvest reports of the LE elk hunts that were just posted by Amy of the DWR and did a quick comparison of the success rates between the late LE elk hunts and the early LE elk hunts. This is what I found: Early LE elk hunts garnered hunters 1132 tags....of those 1132 tags, 898 were filled for a 79% success rate; by way of comparison, late LE elk hunts garnered hunters 444 tags of which 336 were filled for a 76% success rate. What this leads me to believe is that the success rates of rifle LE elk hunts are very similar REGARDLESS of when they are held with rut hunts having a very slight success rate advantage in some areas (probably dependent on the year/weather). Regardless, though, to say that moving the rifle hunt out of the rut would drastically increase tag numbers for elk hunters is naive and not true. Our own success rates bears this idea out...


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

There are not only 2 choices; killing them during the rut or on winter range. How about mid October? Do you think the harvest rates would be similar to the two you posted?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> There are not only 2 choices; killing them during the rut or on winter range. How about mid October? Do you think the harvest rates would be similar to the two you posted?


They are in Arizona. I don't think the time is the biggest factor. I think that when people get these coveted tags they do their best to fill them. That means they put in extra time, they use a lot more resources including guides and friends for help, and they spend more money on equipment including optics.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2011)

i promise if they quit shootin them on the winter range and during the rut with rifles, the success wouldnt be the same. they need to put the archery hunt from sept. 1-20, leave the muzzleloader where its at and put the rifle hunt a week before the rifle deer hunt takes place. the archers would be more successful, muzzy hunters would more then likely be a little more successful and the rifle success rate would drop. maybe not a lot, but enough to make a difference.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> the archers would be more successful, muzzy hunters would more then likely be a little more successful and the rifle success rate would drop. maybe not a lot, but enough to make a difference.


The increases in muzzy and archery success would offset any decrease in rifle success....netting us virtually the same amount of tags.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2011)

i dont think so, but even then, it makes every tag drawn a more quality hunt for everyone no matter the weapon choice. guys with the most effective weapons shouldnt be able to hunt them at the best time of the year. its unfair to the elk and other hunters with a bow or muzzleloader with a 1x scope in their hands.


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

Another thing to consider is the quality of bulls on each hunt. If the success rates are the same, why isn't there more of a balance in numbers of applicants. During hunts in the rut, hunters are able to select from a number of different bulls which bull they want. Some hunters with the late hunt take what they can get. There is no question the elk are far more vulnerable during the rut. People eat tag soup more than likely because they are waiting for the "Bull of a Lifetime", not from a lack of opportunity. Tree has a point with an October hunt. They would be much harder to hunt during that time. Taking the rifle hunt out of the rut would mean more bulls of all age classes are more likely to be harvested during the hunt, making it possible to issue more tags. That is why age objective average is so stupid for managing elk. It should be bull:cow ratio. Then they could greatly increase the tags. JMHO.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

How do you lower success on rates on units that are crawling with elk and have relatively few tags? I can see the average age of harvest drop and maybe even the average days in the field increase but I don't see rifle success rates changing much with the bull to tag ratio that exists on LE units. You don't need to call a bull into to you with a rifle. You just need some good binos and a good pair of boots to kill a good bull on an LE unit.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> How do you lower success on rates on units that are crawling with elk and have relatively few tags? I can see the average age of harvest drop and maybe even the average days in the field increase but I don't see rifle success rates changing much with the bull to tag ratio that exists on LE units. You don't need to call a bull into to you with a rifle. You just need some good binos and a good pair of boots to kill a good bull on an LE unit.


Bingo...and that is what the management plans in states like Arizona are showing. If a unit has a high bull/cow ratio, it will have a high success rate REGARDLESS of when it is held. Even in Utah, the units with lower bull/cow ratios and fewer elk are the units with lower success rates. Timing isn't the issue.

Also, in comparison of late and early LE hunts in Utah, I believe the elk are MORE vulnerable in the late hunt because they are on their winter range and the bulls are grouped together. The reason there is a lot more applicants for the early hunt compared to the late hunt comes down to trophy quality--the early tag holders have first pick of the biggest bulls, and the late tag holders get the leftovers (not to mention the number of elk with broken antlers).

Again, you guys talk about increasing the number of tags by moving the rifle hunt out of the rut...BUT, if you move the archery hunt or the muzzy hunt into the rut you will increase the success rates of those hunts and any decrease in rifle tags would be offset. So, you wouldn't gain anything. IF, for example, you saved yourself 5% in success rates (which the numbers might imply) you only increase the tag allotment by about 70. Increasing the archery and muzzy success rates could easily make up that number.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

I think there was a valid argument about the size of animals taken in the rut vs out of the rut. The bigger bulls are more vocal and do a good job of at least getting you in the right area with your binos during the rut. I do think that a savvy hunter with experience will still be able to get a good bull outside of the rut, but the rut hunt helps get hunters with less experience in the right place to start glassing for that big bull. 

I also think that while yes a good pair of binoculars gets a rifle hunter on the elk, during the peak of the rut those bulls spend a LOT more time out in the open where you can actually see them, instead of scrambling for cover within an hour of first light the way they do the rest of the year. 

I also agree that hunters on winter range during the late season hunts have more vulnerable animals, at lower range, in more open country, where it's not as hard to find the herd and consequently the bulls. 

I do however think that if you took the rifle hunt into october, you would see a small decline in success but not much, but the size and age class of the bull wouldn't be as high. Once the rut is over, those herd bulls go lay down and call it quits for a bit to recover. You've still have some whopper sattelite bulls, but you'd be working a little harder to harvest the herd bull.

That being said, maybe, just maybe, the way we currently issue tags based on age class objectives, by moving the rifle hunter out of the rut, and consequently making it more challenging to harvest the higher age class bulls, we'd be cutting out own throats in terms of future tag numbers. Sure it makes good biological sense to make it more challenging for a hunter to harvest the biggest bulls on any given unit, but by doing so you put the entire unit in a situation where it would fall below objective, even though bigger bulls are available on that unit. Because the way we do it now, it's based on what's harvested and not the actual health of the herd or age class available.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > There are not only 2 choices; killing them during the rut or on winter range. How about mid October? Do you think the harvest rates would be similar to the two you posted?
> ...


In my very limited experience with elk in Arizona.........

The rut generally begins and runs later than Utahs, maybe not by much, but a week or two. Maybe its the different climate, weather, and habitat??? Or is my limited experience off??

I do see your point wyo2ut, but its hard to speculate on exact harvest rates without actually trying them on the different Units. Every year I spend some time North of the border (idaho) chasing elk in september and october. Idaho runs the LE rifle hunt the first week of October, followed by a general season rifle tag(both allow harvest of any bull, with a rifle) . The difference in that tag vs the general season tag the second week of october is astounding in my experience (rut is usually just finishing up the first week of Oct)

Anyone who says killing mature bulls is just as easy post rut as it is during the rut is kidding themselves or hunting high fence :O•-:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Archery would NEVER enjoy 90% success rates!


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Archery would NEVER enjoy 90% success rates!


Or anywhere even close.......rut or no rut.......


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## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

I sure would enjoy it. But we wouldn't experience it...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

OK, I've been on a few September rifle elk hunts..  
Here is exactly what would happen if the DWR moved the L/E elk hunt,,

1) If the archery hunt was to go through sept 25 there would be an increase
in success,,some units would jump into the 50% harvest range.....

2) If the muzzle loader hunt was to open next, the success rate would also 
rise on this hunt to the 50% to %70 range. Simply because of no rifle hunt
pressure before the muzzy hunt like it is now....

3) Move the L/E rifle elk hunt to October, Now this would get interesting!
First off, there would be no choice but to run the L/E ALONG WITH the general
hunts, more than likely the general elk (spike, any bull) 9 days, the 1st half of oct.

YES , it would be more difficult to maybe kill the herd bull, BUT there is still some
bugling going on right through the end of October and the second estrous cycle.. 

PARTY HUNTING,,,WOW, :shock: This would increase 10 fold! Now guys how draw
L/E tags could have friends and family that are helping ALSO be spike hunting..

It will be harder to take the bigger bulls so many hunters will push it to the end.
This is when the rag horn WILL FALL,,,,,,And it wouldn't surprise me one bit for
the l/E tag holder to hand .jr the gun, or tell his brother the last day to shoot. :? 

Get the picture? 
And, in my opinion, a much LESS enjoyable L/E elk hunt with 13,000 spike hunters
running around at the same time........

Summery, Better archery and M/L hunts with more tags issued, higher success..
Lower success on rifle hunts, BUT, more tags issued and more rag horns shot..

They could issue maybe 20% more permits, BUT the rifle hunt would be much 
less desirable,,,,,,,,The muzzleloader hunt would explode with popularity....


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

So move the spike hunt. It took me a really long time to conjure up that idea.......


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> So move the spike hunt. It took me a really long time to conjure up that idea.......


OK,put it were?,,,Now which hunt do you move or combine?

General muzzleloader elk Nov. 2-Nov. 10

(late, elk, L/E) Nov. 12-Nov. 20

General any legal weapon
deer*
Oct. 22-Oct. 30


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

Kill em all said,


> guys with the most effective weapons shouldnt be able to hunt them at the best time of the year


.

Why should they be able to? Archers enjoy a much longer LE season. They draw tags more frequently. Over a lifetime, an archer may actually kill more elk than a rifle hunter due to the higher frequency of drawing a LE tag. So, is that fair?


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2011)

BradN said:


> Kill em all said,
> 
> 
> > guys with the most effective weapons shouldnt be able to hunt them at the best time of the year
> ...


archers might be able to draw 1 MAYBE 2 more elk tags then a rifle hunter, but its UTAH! so basicly an archer might be able to draw 3 tags in a lifetime, where a rifle guy can draw 2 tags. not really that much of a difference. elk are extremely active during the rut. they are very vocal and respond better to calls during that time of the year then any other. so why should a guy holding a weapon capable of shooting 800+ yards have a tag for when he can call an animal into less then 60 yards and shoot him with his 10X scope? thats not fair to the animals being hunted. i dont know if you hunt archery, but when you get out of the truck every morning, you enter the woods knowing the odds are stacked against you. most archers have a max range of 60 yards. we cant sit on a ridge top and be able to cover every piece of country we can see like people with guns. thats our choice, we choose to hunt with a bow. to many, its much more thrilling and exciting then pulling the trigger on an animal with a gun. but since archers choose to limit themselves, they should be able to hunt when the elk will come to them and can be fooled enough to get within close enough range for a shot.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> PARTY HUNTING,,,WOW, :shock: This would increase 10 fold! Now guys how draw
> L/E tags could have friends and family that are helping ALSO be spike hunting..
> 
> It will be harder to take the bigger bulls so many hunters will push it to the end.
> ...


i know and understand that party hunting is wrong, but whats so bad about a dad handing his son his rifle (the only gun between the 2 of them) and letting his kid shoot the bull?


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > So move the spike hunt. It took me a really long time to conjure up that idea.......
> ...


The have already combined the archery elk and deer, why not the same for the rifle hunt.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

Kill 'em,

I understand that archery hunting is infinitely more difficult than rfile hunting. But, to suggest that rifle hunters have a kill zone out to 800+ yards is ludicrous for all but a select few. I always thought that archery hunters hunted the archery hunt because of the difficulty level not in spite of it. To suggest that archery hunters (because of their choice) are somehow more worthy of hunting in the rut is nonsensical. 

I think it would be fair to rotate the hunts so that each weapon group gets to experience a hunt during the rut. Then, if hunting in the rut is what you want, and let's say you're an archery hunter but it's not the year for the archery hunt to be in the rut, you can choose to get preference points only.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Fishracer said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > Treehugnhuntr said:
> ...


Touche.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

BradN said:


> I understand that archery hunting is infinitely more difficult than rfile hunting. But, to suggest that rifle hunters have a kill zone out to 800+ yards is ludicrous for all but a select few. I always thought that archery hunters hunted the archery hunt because of the difficulty level not in spite of it. To suggest that archery hunters (because of their choice) are somehow more worthy of hunting in the rut is nonsensical. Its not about being more 'worthy', at least for me, its about which weapon choice has the least impact on 'quality'/quantity by being able to hunt during the rut. Rifle hunters may not be able to kill at 800 yards, but they surely can kill on a regular basis at 200+ yards, which is out of range for 99.99% of muzzy hunters and 100% of archery hunters, making it far easier for rifle hunters to harvest a bull standing 250 yards away, yes?
> 
> I think it would be fair to rotate the hunts so that each weapon group gets to experience a hunt during the rut. The possible problem with this is would be the increased likelihood of confusion, simplicity is usually a better option. Then, if hunting in the rut is what you want, and let's say you're an archery hunter but it's not the year for the archery hunt to be in the rut, you can choose to get preference points only. I would rather have a set number of 'premium' units that hold the rifle hunt during the rut, and ALL the rest hold the rifle hunt in mid-October. Let the archers have the first two weeks of September all to themselves which is BEFORE the peak of the rut, and give the muzzy hunters the third week of September along with the archers. This would maximize opportunity far better than what we have now.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the so-called "rifle" hunt really "any-weapon"? Doesn't this mean you can use any legal weapon of choice (rifle/muzzle-loader/bow)?

If all the archery/muzzle-loader guys want to hunt in the rut, put in for the "any-weapon" tag and use your bow/muzzle-loader. People are waiting that long and gaining so many points to hunt the rut, not necessarily with a specific weapon (although if you wait that long you might as well use the weapon that give you the highest odds of being successful).


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

JuddCT said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the so-called "rifle" hunt really "any-weapon"? Doesn't this mean you can use any legal weapon of choice (rifle/muzzle-loader/bow)?
> 
> If all the archery/muzzle-loader guys want to hunt in the rut, put in for the "any-weapon" tag and use your bow/muzzle-loader. People are waiting that long and gaining so many points to hunt the rut, not necessarily with a specific weapon (although if you wait that long you might as well use the weapon that give you the highest odds of being successful).


I was wondering when this nonsensical argument was going to be brought up. Quick question for you; is it as easy to draw an "any-weapon" permit as it is an archery/muzzy permit? If someone takes 15+ years to draw a permit, are you really suggesting it is reasonable to think very many would archery hunt, wearing orange while competing with high powered rifle hunters? :? Its like the OIL hunts, very few are willing to use a bow/muzzle loader on these hunts.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

North Slope, 3 Corners has an October any weapon elk hunt--- 90-95% success rates. To be honest, I don't think changing the timing would greatly reduce harvest percentages for rifle and it might increase them for archery and ml (which I guess could in turn reduce the success of any weapon, but isn't that kind of a wash?). It might produce slightly better quality on some units, where a few bulls have left the herds of cows on certain years. The problem is these tags are so cherished that the lucky hunter who draws one tends to put a lot of effort into placing the tag on a bull. I have seen mature bulls gathering cows the 3rd week of Aug and doing the same the 3rd week of Oct. It all depends on the year and the timing of the rut. It seems the last 2 years the ML boys have had the best rut activity. 

If I draw an archery tag I will be sitting wallows the first week of Sept and hopefully shoot a bull getting all gussied-up before he visits the ladies.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Why do we have to do the same thing state wide and cater to only one group of hunters?????

Why not mix it up a little bit, some units allow rifle hunters in the rut, some units archery and some muzzy in the rut.............


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Why do we have to do the same thing state wide and cater to only one group of hunters?????
> 
> Why not mix it up a little bit, some units allow rifle hunters in the rut, some units archery and some muzzy in the rut.............


Excellent questions/points.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> JuddCT said:
> 
> 
> > Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the so-called "rifle" hunt really "any-weapon"? Doesn't this mean you can use any legal weapon of choice (rifle/muzzle-loader/bow)?
> ...


Of course it isn't as easy to draw. :roll: I'm just saying that you are basically waiting 15+ years to hunt the RUT so why not use the weapon that gives you the best odds? I don't see a huge problem with this. But I wouldn't be opposed to splitting some units so that the archery/muzzle-loader guys got to do it once and while.

Pro, don't get so worked up. :mrgreen:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

JuddCT said:


> Pro, don't get so worked up. :mrgreen:


No worries. 8)

In reality though, the any-weapon permits are rifle permits. Even the DWR refers to them more often than not as rifle permits when compiling reports/data.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Here is the thing... If you need 15 years to draw a tag... you are likely to be successful... 

That's great, you had every advantage that very few hunters had. You either shot a bull in the rut from any reasonable distance using any legal weapon, or you shot a bull in the winter range... The bull that you shot required less effort to harvest, you just waited a long time to be able to legally hunt it. 

I am not opposed to losing all of my bonus points (10) in exchange for a tag to hunt a branched antlered bull on a limited entry unit while everyone else is hunting spikes. I don't mind the competition. I just want an opportunity to harvest such an animal. Competing with spike hunters is the price that I pay for hunting with any legal weapon. If you think the success ratio would be the same during the general season spike hunt for someone with a branched antler bull tag as it would be for some one during either the rut or the late season I would argue that you are incorrect. 

Its a good argument to perhaps consider issuing more tags for branched antlered bulls that coincides with the spike hunt in an effort in increase branched antler opportunity. This way hunters are permitted the opportunity to hunt a branched antler bull perhaps every 5 years rather than every 15 years and essentially only harvest 1 trophy bull every 15 years. 

The only issue to consider is how the DNR would regulate those with branched antler tags while other spike hunters are a field. 

This is just an idea...


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## timberbuck (May 19, 2010)

I don't see what the problem is here-or stated another way how people think it is unfair for the rifle hunt to be in the rut/best time.

The rifle hunts are the hardest to draw and generally take the longest to draw. This has always been a given. The rifle hunts are the premium tags.

Want to hunt sooner-go archery
Want to hunt a little sooner-go muzz

Either way you are making a choice generally to hunt sooner and hunt not quite as good of a time of year as the rifle. What exactly is the debate here?????

Also what about the max point holders that have put their time in to draw one of these rifle tags? You are proposing we just change the hunts and screw them over? How could this work? 

I have seen a lot of this type of thinking on these forums recently-looks to me there a lot of selfish thinking hunters that want things changed for their betterment with no regards for the people who have put their time in-they want to change a system that others are all ready heavily invested in.

FYI-I do not have elk points


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Sorry to keep writing and making things long winded... 

But if we start a branched antlered limited entry permit on the spike units that coincides with the spike hunts perhaps we could require harvest reporting. 

If you draw and harvest a bull then start a new 5 year waiting period. If you draw and don't harvest a bull then all of your bonus points are lost, but there is no 5 year waiting period. 

This would encourage hunters to wait only for a trophy bull, and also encourage hunters to also eat tag soup rather than harvest a raghorn and also pass the opportunity on to the next hunters in line. In my mind I see this plan as a balanced effort. I don't want to make any enemies from this suggestion so I am open to feedback. 

I just don't want to put hunters on a pedestal just because they waited the 15 years to shoot a bull on their doorstep. Its not hunting when you get every advantage because you waited your entire life taking a number or saving up for an auction tag.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

Pro,

I could live with your concept of a premium tags for those that want to hunt with a rifle in the rut. It may actually clear out some of the any weapon/rifle plug... not much, but some. 

I appreciate your argument of which hunt has the least impact on quality. It seems that many archers argue that they are most worthy of hunting during the rut because of difficulty level, and that has just never been terribly logical to me. As far as MLers in the rut, it seems that smokepoles aren't so primitive any more and that as they approach rifles in killing efficiency adjustments (perhaps major) will become necessary.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I am an archer and like most archers in the state I think it is stupid to hunt elk in the rut with a rifle--mearly out of principle, and we are the only state in the nation that does this.

BUT--what most archers need to understand is that if we were able to hunt the month of September then our odds would probably get worse as some guys who use both rifle and bow would opt for the archery hunt. I would think that this may increase draw times by a few years

Its a double edge sword for us.

Also to the guy that said you are screwing over the rifle guys who have put the time in by moving the hunt into Oct--if the harvest % is nearly the same from early to late then how are you screwing anyone over--they would still get a shot at a great bull with a long range weapon--they just might have to work a hair harder--GASP!!!


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

Are most archery hunters arrogant or does it just appear that way?


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## stick (Jun 11, 2008)

o-||


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

"Are most archery hunters arrogant or does it just appear that way?"

No, it only appears that way because what we do is hard. 8) 

Do all rilfemen have an inferiority complex when someone calls them out for being whiny witches when they can't hunt during the easiest time of the year with the most long range weapon.  

paratroopers pick on leg-infantry, rangers pick on paratroopers, green berets pick on rangers, delta force picks on green berets and so it goes. When the next group works harder than you do to be successful there tends to be a little crap talking--its natural!


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Airborne said:


> When the next group works harder than you do to be successful there tends to be a little crap talking--its natural!


Sitting in a treestand waiting for an animal to walk by at 20 yards is real hard...........


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## eyecrazy (May 4, 2008)

I think prout has it make some le archery and muzz and rifle during the rut that would solve some of the problem then everyone would have a peace of the cake. this would be very easy to do don't you think.


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## timberbuck (May 19, 2010)

It could be done and be fair to everybody involved only if it starts with a newly opened elk area.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

timberbuck said:


> It could be done and be fair to everybody involved only if it starts with a newly opened elk area.


And its fair to all involved now??????????????


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

One thing that sticks out is we need to fairly respresent the issue. The archery, muzzy, and rifle seasons are ALL in the rut guys. The issue is that the rifle hunters have the biggest portion of the PEAK of the rut. Sometimes we get so passionate about an issue that we take things for granted. All LE elk hunters have a shot at hunting elk during the rut. Let's not let that fact get lost in this discussion. 

The reason I bring that up is that this discussion has the feel of being portrayed as rifle hunters having a significant advantage when is reality is it only a slight one. The elk rut starts towards the end of August and goes well into October, at least. Fact.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

There is NO SUCH THING AS (Rifle elk hunts during the rut)In Utah.

THEY ARE,,,,Any legal weapon hunts!!!!!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> There is NO SUCH THING AS (Rifle elk hunts during the rut)In Utah.
> 
> THEY ARE,,,,Any legal weapon hunts!!!!!


This is true. I'v said that many times myself.....no one listens. The answer is generally "who is going to use archery or muzzy equipment when everyone else is using long range weapons?" I don't buy that but that's the response.

I have personally used archery equipment on any weapon hunts and my dad has used a muzzy on several any weapon hunts.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Sorry Bullsnot, but I respectfully disagree.......you act like the peak of the rut is not that big of a deal......

Rifle hunters or Any Weapon  have a HUGE advantage, not a slight one IMO- distance of weapon, lack of competetion, SCREAMING BULLS (at least MOST years). Archery hunters get VERY little time in the rut most years, compete with general season elk hunters and deer hunters (minus a few days), bulls usually aren't even thinking about screaming, hell its summer most of august and the biggest concern is getting meat taken care of in sweltering heat. Muzzy guys get to pick through what the rifle hunters left, and get to compete with a million muzzy deer hunters. Muzzy hunters can get great rut activity, depending on the year though. Not to mention the weapon handicap that both muzzy and archery provide. 

Either way you look at it, Rifle/anyweapon guys get quite an advantage in this state in regards to elk, everything except draw odds. Why not mix it up and spread a little of the love rifle hunters enjoy every year?????

If nothing else, why is it that the ANY WEAPON hunters do not have to compete with any general hunts, throughout the entire hunt, and everyone else does?? :O•-:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> If nothing else, why is it that the ANY WEAPON hunters do not have to compete with any general hunts, throughout the entire hunt, and everyone else does?? :O•-:


That's a great question. They are hunting with a rifle (typically), they apparently need every advantage they can get. :mrgreen:


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

One more thing, if the rut last for two months, then what is the big deal about taking the rifle hunt to any other time???????......no one should even notice........


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Sorry Bullsnot, but I respectfully disagree.......you act like the peak of the rut is not that big of a deal......


I can see why you may believe this.....but....how many bulls are killed during the LE archery hunt because they were called into range? I have called in many bulls during the archery hunt. Likewise I've seen many a bull called in during the muzzy hunt. They are most vocal during the any weapon hunt, no doubt. BUT with some hard work and some skill you can do the very same things during the archery and muzzy hunt. Advantage yes.....big one? I just don't think so. In fact it's sometimes easier to call in a bull in early September, before they are herded up, than late September when a bull won't leave his cows. JMHO



ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> If nothing else, why is it that the ANY WEAPON hunters do not have to compete with any general hunts, throughout the entire hunt, and everyone else does?? :O•-:


This is a fair question. I wonder if it's because the shear number of rifle hunters that would be in the field. There are more general deer rifle hunters than there are archery deer and elk hunters combined. Just a guess though.

To be honest I don't have a major problem with the way the seasons are aligned.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> ntrl_brn_rebel said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Bullsnot, but I respectfully disagree.......you act like the peak of the rut is not that big of a deal......
> ...


Speaking as someone who guided many hunters over the last two plus decades, while it is possible to call bulls in during archery/muzzy season they need to be called in closer than they do for rifle hunters. And, calling a bull into archery range doesn't mean it is a lock to be killed. Bow hunters not only are limited in their success by the effective range of their weapon, but also by having to move in order to shoot. I can't tell you how many called in bulls were not killed because they saw the movement of the archer drawing back. The other thing, with such an advantage of a longer range, the need to call a bull in close is mostly gone. The 'top' outfitter in Utah rarely even tries to call in bulls for his high dollar clients during the rifle season, they use high quality optics, sit on ridges listening for bugles, and then sneaking into rifle range.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

proutdoors said:


> Speaking as someone who guided many hunters over the last two plus decades, while it is possible to call bulls in during archery/muzzy season they need to be called in closer than they do for rifle hunters. And, calling a bull into archery range doesn't mean it is a lock to be killed. Bow hunters not only are limited in their success by the effective range of their weapon, but also by having to move in order to shoot. I can't tell you how many called in bulls were not killed because they saw the movement of the archer drawing back. The other thing, with such an advantage of a longer range, the need to call a bull in close is mostly gone. The 'top' outfitter in Utah rarely even tries to call in bulls for his high dollar clients during the rifle season, they use high quality optics, sit on ridges listening for bugles, and then sneaking into rifle range.


Definitely, I wouldn't disagree one bit with this. But regardless of when the archery and muzzy hunts are the range and challenges that come with using those weapons will never change.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you were to move the archery or muzzy hunt to happen when the any weapon hunts are happening you aren't suddenly going to have a much easier hunt.

In other words the rifle hunters don't have a major advantage because of hunt "timing". They have a major advantage because of the range of thier weapon and moving the hunts around won't change much IMHO.

To be fair the rifle hunters do have some advantage due to timing....my point was let's not blow it out of proportion. That's all.


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## deerlove (Oct 20, 2010)

Did you ever notice that the guides would never want the rifle hunt out of the rut? Why is that? It's easier? More $ for them and clients are willing to pay more for a rut hunt???


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

deerlove said:


> Did you ever notice that the guides would never want the rifle hunt out of the rut? Why is that? It's easier? More $ for them and clients are willing to pay more for a rut hunt???


Sure...but the archery and muzzy hunts also happen during the rut.

Is anyone out there even trying to grasp what I'm saying?


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## deerlove (Oct 20, 2010)

High rollers are not going to put up a lot of coin for a primitive tag. They want rut rifle hunts.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

I will gladly trade the archers hunt dates straight across. General archery any bull Aug.21st-
Sept.17th. General season any bull elk Oct 9th-Oct.27th.( last years dates)

I get to hunt before almost anyone is out chasing every animal on the mountain to high heaven, bulls are more laid back, its warmer (not that I care, but it would be nice to hunt in a tee-shirt), I will get 3 to 4 weekends to hunt instead of two.

Before anyone goes jumping my ****. I just want to say this is general season. In LE area's I really don't think it matters, but if archers were to hunt after a rifle hunt where the first gun goes off and the elk head for the highest thickest timber they can find. I think you should all be happy with what you get, and not give them any more reasons to keep trying to make everyone happy by changing seasons, dates, days, areas, so on and so on. It's endless. It needs to stop.

Like I said though I will gladly trade straight across. Get a chance to hunt before everything is chased to hell and gone.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> deerlove said:
> 
> 
> > Did you ever notice that the guides would never want the rifle hunt out of the rut? Why is that? It's easier? More $ for them and clients are willing to pay more for a rut hunt???
> ...


Technically bullsnot is correct. Archery occurs in the pre-rut, the rifle in the "prime" rut, and muzzy in the post-rut. I can see the argument on both sides of the issue here.

First item I have to address is it is ludicrous to expect anyone to wait 10+ years to draw an any weapon LE Elk tag and use their bow. If you wait that long you are not going to go into a gun fight with a knife persay. You wait that long you want to increase your likely hood of getting an acceptable animal for the amount of investment you have put in (time and money).

I also believe it would be close to a wash on getting the rifle hunt out of the rut, there are many factors to consider. Like horsema said the archery hunters get first wack at them, the only crappy part I have experienced is all the any weapon folks out scouting and calling while you are trying to hunt, but that is also why they call it hunting. I personally wouldn't mind seeing all three weapons out of the "prime" rut, there is a difference. I guess like some others have said there are unintended consequences any way you look at it. I also think there could be some clever date changes that could change things up that would effect tag numbers.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

jahan said:


> First item I have to address is it is ludicrous to expect anyone to wait 10+ years to draw an any weapon LE Elk tag and use their bow. If you wait that long you are not going to go into a gun fight with a knife persay. You wait that long you want to increase your likely hood of getting an acceptable animal for the amount of investment you have put in (time and money).


Well.....not necessarily. I'd still use my bow. Personally, I think it's cheating to use a rifle to shoot an elk. Seriously, how hard is it to kill a bull elk with a gun?

With a rifle, the challenge is finding the animal. Once the animal is located, the hunt is over.
With archery the hunt doesn't begin until after the animal is located.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

PBH said:


> Personally, I think it's cheating to use a rifle to shoot an elk. Seriously, how hard is it to kill a bull elk with a gun?
> 
> With a rifle, the challenge is finding the animal. Once the animal is located, the hunt is over.
> With archery the hunt doesn't begin until after the animal is located.


In the prime of the rut, on Utah's LE areas, Rifle in hand, I would have to agree with you for the most part.....at least the killing a bull, if your looking for a GREAT bull, its not to easy no matter what your hunting with or when.

Anywhere else........well, thats a pretty big statement. Especially to say once the animal is located its over....**** you must be good


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