# help me out



## sbs20ga (Sep 20, 2009)

i know i'm about to open a topic that has been thrashed to death about a bazillion times, but I JUST DON"T GET IT .........
why do you folks hunt with these modern muzzleloaders, and then prended that you have done something cool because you got your game with a muzzleloader??? 
i know most of you will sneer, and talk down to me, and drive me out of the forum, but really, I dont get it.
don't anybody come back with "i enjoy the added challange of hunting with a muzzleloader" .you clearly don't. you do what ever you can to take the challange out of it. pelletized powder, synthetic stocks, enclosed, in line shotgun primers, scopes. where oh where is the "added challange?"
PULeeese, milk jugs at 200 yds. msot people would find that a challange with an '06.
i would never be one to take anyones hunting opportunities away. hunt with those modern guns if you want. You have however, taken my prefered hunting method away. Since those guns came on the scene, the muzzleloader season has become one of the most popular, and is becomming as overcrowded as the general hunt--- and shortened--.
Hunt with those guns if you want, but please don't act like you have done something exceptional 'cause you got your game with a muzzleloader. Getting your buck, or bull is an accomplishment, and something to be proud of, but no more cool with a modern muzzleloader than with a single shot metallic cartridge rifle.
I JUST DON"T GET IT !!


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

I beg to differ. My eyesight prevents me from taking a muzzy shot on anything over about 80 yards right now. A scope or red dot does not help. You call that an advantage? ****, the archery hunters are reporting every day they are taking shots to 90 yards with a bow!!!!!!
Do you brag about killing something with your sbs 20 ga that a 12 ga hunter kills daily? I bet you do because it is an inferior weapon to the norm(12 ga). And just because you "hear" people say THEY CAN HIT CONSISTENT AT 200 YARDS with a muzzy doesn't mean they are telling the truth.


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## Hunter7 (Mar 14, 2009)




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## Gumbo (Sep 22, 2007)

sbs20ga said:


> why do you folks hunt with these modern muzzleloaders, and then prended that you have done something cool because you got your game with a muzzleloader???


I hunt with a traditional ML as well, but I'm not so arrogant as to think I should impose my ideas on others. You drew an arbitrary line in the sand that works for you: others have drawn their line much more traditional while some are more contemporary. Hunt how you like within the law and allow others to hunt how, where, or what they may. Open your mind.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Whats weird is how the DWR doesnt agree with you?? Man, they must just not get it...


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

sbs20ga said:


> i know i'm about to open a topic that has been thrashed to death about a bazillion times, but I JUST DON"T GET IT .........
> why do you folks hunt with these modern muzzleloaders, and then prended that you have done something cool because you got your game with a muzzleloader???
> i know most of you will sneer, and talk down to me, and drive me out of the forum, but really, I dont get it.
> don't anybody come back with "i enjoy the added challange of hunting with a muzzleloader" .you clearly don't. you do what ever you can to take the challange out of it. pelletized powder, synthetic stocks, enclosed, in line shotgun primers, scopes. where oh where is the "added challange?"
> ...


I'm not sneering, trying to talk you down or run you out of the forum, but a weapon is a weapon. Muzzleloader, bow, rifle. They all have their limitations and/or advantages. You like yours and other like theirs. As long as it is legal, does it really matter? :?

I prefer to hunt with a scoped centerfire rifle. Does that make me more modern than someone who chooses to hunt with open sights? How about the bow hunters? a couple of different kinds of those...

People prefer to hunt with many different weapons for many reasons. It's all about personal choice. More people in general equates to more hunters in general, during all of the different hunts.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

Nevermind, I just sound overly defensive.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You guys are falling for a classic troll using a strawman argument. He starts off on a false premise, then attacks it trying to get people to defend it. Its dumb.

"why do you folks hunt with these modern muzzleloaders, and *then prended that you have done something cool because you got your game with a muzzleloader*???"

No-one here seems to be posting how cool they are to be using a smokepole, he just made it up as a strawman, then attacked it then sat back to watch people try and justify it. Its dumb, dont fall for it.

I personally hunt with Muzzleloaders because they are fun to hunt with, and my favorite type of firearm. I hunted for years with them back when it was after the Oct Rifle hunt. I'd rather hunt during that original hunt date, but if I want to hunt with a smokepole, I gotta do it when the season is... which is currently the end of sept.

"coolness" or "challenge" bah none of those are reasons I've shot smokepoles for 27 years... the best reason is they are fun.

-DallanC


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

Whats up with these wimpy "200" yard claims? My inline shoots out to 800 yards ethically.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

lehi said:


> Whats up with these wimpy "200" yard claims? My inline shoots out to 800 yards ethically.


This thread made me less intelligent by reading it, so I will just hijack; Lehi, have you ever made a serious post? That is a sincere question.

BTW, check me out in my awesome 2011 model outfit I just made for this year's hunt; you wusses in your camo need to join Tex and I in the true traditional ways:


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

lehi said:


> Whats up with these wimpy "200" yard claims? My inline shoots out to 800 yards ethically.


I almost have a Zero at 800!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

You don't need to get it! Honest, the world will be the same for you in the AM as it was when you went to bed! 
And yes it is more of a challange to me to take an animal with an in-line muzzy than my rifle! I shoot my rifle very well, yet I seem to not be able to shoot as well with my Muzzy! So it is more of a Challange to me. 
I continue to work on my distance shots. I almost have a zero for the 800 yard mark, but I won't be happy until I have it at 1200 yards! And I have made a moving target at that! I have a lot of kids, and dogs and horses, so I have them hold the target as I practice! Now your thinking that I am nuts or something. But really I don't expect you to believe that the horse or the dogs can hold the target.... I tape it to them. The kids do run almost as fast as the horses, but need to work on the gait of the dogs. That to me is a big challage. It's hard to shoot one of my dogs!!!!! o-|| 
The load I use is one I got from here. I put all the powder pellets I can fit in the gun, just leaving enough room for the bullet!



sbs20ga said:


> i know i'm about to open a topic that has been thrashed to death about a bazillion times, but I JUST DON"T GET IT .........
> why do you folks hunt with these modern muzzleloaders, and then prended that you have done something cool because you got your game with a muzzleloader???
> i know most of you will sneer, and talk down to me, and drive me out of the forum, but really, I dont get it.
> don't anybody come back with "i enjoy the added challange of hunting with a muzzleloader" .you clearly don't. you do what ever you can to take the challange out of it. pelletized powder, synthetic stocks, enclosed, in line shotgun primers, scopes. where oh where is the "added challange?"
> ...


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## sbs20ga (Sep 20, 2009)

ok, so everybody just jumped out defending your "in lines" and no one attempted to answer the question. so i'll try to word it differently. What is the attraction to using a rifle during a muzzle loader season, that you do everything possible, short of loading from the front, to turn it into a modern centerfire ? like i said. i just don't get it.
i don't have a problem with anyone using them, but i believe they belong in the general hunt.
let me answer the basic question for you. you chose them over a traditional because :
-1. they are more reliable
-2. the major variables are eliminated or reduced
-3. because, they are just plain easier. 
is that about it? is there more ? i don't need any more defenders of the in line. i want to hear the plus side reasons. i don't get it. other than "it makes it easier"


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

We agree on one thing:


sbs20ga said:


> i don't get it.


Have you ever hunted archery? If so, did you use a compound or recurve/longbow? 
If you have hunted the rifle hunt, do you use an open sight lever action 30-30 or a semi auto with a zoom scope? If yes, why? How do you like answering a question with another question?


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Yawn..... sbs, youre barking up the wrong tree. You wont get anything changed about the ML hunt by whining here. Why dont you go to a RAC, propose an idea, write some letters?? 
We have answered it already but....
1. I'm allowed an ultra high powered scope on my 270.
2. It shoots three times faster and three times further than my Omega.
3. I have a 6 round clip and for some reason my bolt is much faster to reload than my ML.
4. My cartridges are all in one piece with my 270.
5. I dont have to clean between shots with my 270.

And the list goes on. But there is no use talking to you... YOU JUST DONT GET IT!!!


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## sbs20ga (Sep 20, 2009)

you go to RAC meetings, you know the DNR's intrest is in pleasing the masses, and selling liscense's.
remember, "the squeeky wheel get's the grease" 
maybe the DNR's intrest should be in preserving sport, rather than greasing squeeky wheels.
i don't see your five points. are you saying that i'm right modern is easier? are you saying that as long as it's legal it's moral & right?
i don't know, i just know that the muzzle loader hunt used to be about solitude, quiet time hunting, a pleasurable non pressure expierence, then along came in lines. easier to hunt with, and everybody went out and got one. four wheelers all over the mountain Bubba taking 200-300 yd. shots. the whole hunt just kind-a went to hell at about the same time those things came on the scene. maybe no correlation at all. i just know the hunt as i used to enjoy it is gone.


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## tabbyhunter (Jul 8, 2009)

sbs20ga
Ya know what helps?
Bitching about it!!

Seriously what were you trying to accomplish with this post?


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## sbs20ga (Sep 20, 2009)

you're right Tabby, bitchin' helps. but seriously, i don't understand why someone would choose a hunt that should be about the added challange of a more primative weapon, and then do everything short of loading from the back to turn it into a modern rifle. i think the general hunt is the place for that.

i know, i know squeaky wheel, the DNR doesn't agree with me.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

sbs20ga said:


> let me answer the basic question for you. you chose them over a traditional because :
> -1. they are more reliable
> -2. the major variables are eliminated or reduced
> -3. because, they are just plain easier.
> is that about it? is there more ? i don't need any more defenders of the in line. i want to hear the plus side reasons. i don't get it. other than "it makes it easier"


I've hunted for more than 25 years with muzzy's. I have both traditionals as well as an inline and a break action.

1. Personally I don't find inline/break actions more reliable. The only incident I can recall was with my first CVA with Pyrodex and 0 degrees temperature. I got a hang fire because the Pyrodex balls up at low temperatures. Corrected the way I load and has never been a problem.
2. Not sure what major variables you're talking about. I use the same powder, load weight and mechanics in loading. For the most part I shoot the same distances. About the only variable I can think of is I don't have to worry about my cap/209 falling off.
3. The only thing I find easier is the cleaning at the end of the day.

It is sad that for some of us who back in time could go on some of these hunts and pretty much have the mountain to ourselves. This has nothing to do with the gun, but I think more to do with trying to have more opportunity and being pushed out of the general rifle seasons.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

You can still get out and find solitude on the muzzleloader. You just can't do it in your truck or on an ATV. 

As for sbs, I'm sure he is hunting with an obsidian arrow head crafted on the end of a stick he cut, smoothed, and straightened himself using only primitive tools. But it's not being shot by a recurve bow. That's too modern. And the only real advantage of that anyway is that it's easier. A real man only uses a spear.


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## Troutsman (Aug 13, 2010)

sbs20ga said:


> you go to RAC meetings, you know the DNR's intrest is in pleasing the masses, and selling liscense's.
> remember, "the squeeky wheel get's the grease"
> maybe the DNR's intrest should be in preserving sport, rather than greasing squeeky wheels.
> i don't see your five points. are you saying that i'm right modern is easier? are you saying that as long as it's legal it's moral & right?
> i don't know, i just know that the muzzle loader hunt used to be about solitude, quiet time hunting, a pleasurable non pressure expierence, then along came in lines. easier to hunt with, and everybody went out and got one. four wheelers all over the mountain Bubba taking 200-300 yd. shots. the whole hunt just kind-a went to hell at about the same time those things came on the scene. maybe no correlation at all. i just know the hunt as i used to enjoy it is gone.


I think they should open a knife season just for you. Wait, maybe someone will put the knife on a stick and make it less of a challenge by turning it into a spear. :roll:

SBS, do you hunt with a flint lock? With the flint pan and everything? Or do you go with one of those modern traditional muzzleloaders with the cap an everything?

To answer you question of what attracts me to an inline on the muzzy hunt is the increased opportunity I have at taking game ethically. The inline shoots more accurately than the older traditional with the round ball and black powder. I do not know where you hunt, but, I still have solitude on my muzzy hunt :mrgreen:


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

sbs20ga said:


> you go to RAC meetings, you know the DNR's intrest is in pleasing the masses, and selling liscense's.
> remember, "the squeeky wheel get's the grease"
> maybe the DNR's intrest should be in preserving sport, rather than greasing squeeky wheels.
> i don't see your five points. are you saying that i'm right modern is easier? are you saying that as long as it's legal it's moral & right?
> i don't know, i just know that the muzzle loader hunt used to be about solitude, quiet time hunting, a pleasurable non pressure expierence, then along came in lines. easier to hunt with, and everybody went out and got one. four wheelers all over the mountain Bubba taking 200-300 yd. shots. the whole hunt just kind-a went to hell at about the same time those things came on the scene. maybe no correlation at all. i just know the hunt as i used to enjoy it is gone.


My list were reasons that inlines are still very primative compared to modern rifles... TS makes a very good point too. See ya at the RACs!!


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Would you rather have 100 guys out attempting 100 yard+ shots with a "primitive weapon"(flintlock)? Possibly wounding several deer in the process or would you like to see a more modern and accurate weapon killing the animals they are shot at? It is funny that you are the only person "bitching" about this in the entire thread.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'd like anyone to explain to me what specifically about an inline rifle offers such an advantage over a sidelock.

There are FLINTLOCKS with synthetic stocks, fiber optic sights, 150grn magnum charges, designed for pellet usage, quick twist sabot barrels... in a FLINTLOCK (TC Black mountain magnum). Are those concidered "traditional"???

My hawkin rifle has been rebarreled with a quality quick twist sabot barrel, its EXTREMELY accurate... I'd put it up against any inline in terms of both accuracy and reliablity.

The argument of inlines vs sidelocks is dumb. The only difference between them is a few thousandths of a second lock time. Accuracy, distance, ignition are all factors dependant on other variables, common to both weapon types.


-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

One more thing, I once ran a ignition test with an old hawkin barrel. I charged it then put on a cap, used wax to seal the nipple and soaked the entire barrel in water for 20 minutes. I then put the barrel back on my stock and test fired it. It immediately fired. 

I also tested ignition based on "old / stale" powder by charging the barrel and leaving the cap off for 8 months. When I finally went to test it, it fired immediately without delay.

Proper care when loading can make any of these weapons reliable, even in wet conditions.


-DallanC


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

DallanC said:


> I'd like anyone to explain to me what specifically about an inline rifle offers such an advantage over a sidelock.
> 
> There are FLINTLOCKS with synthetic stocks, fiber optic sights, 150grn magnum charges, designed for pellet usage, quick twist sabot barrels... in a FLINTLOCK (TC Black mountain magnum). Are those concidered "traditional"???
> 
> ...


Just a guess but i think sbs would not be in favor of the "modern" sidelocks either.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> Just a guess but i think sbs would not be in favor of the "modern" sidelocks either.


Heh ok lemme throw another wrench in the works.

Most people refer to a hawkin style rifle when they use the word "traditional", these come from roughly the 1830s.

Lets say I go to the smithsonian, and I borrow a late 1700's Ferguson *FLINTLOCK* rifle. You cant get any more "traditional" than an actual rifle that pre-dates the era of the hawkins by 50 years right? Guess what... its not legal under todays modern regulations. This due to the Ferguson rifle being breech load.

I'm just trying to point out there is no clear line here. There are "traditional" replicas that are extremely advanced, yet a few actual rifles from the time are illegal.

The OP is pissed because he once had the mountains to himself, and now he doesnt. He blames it on the rifles. Lets ignore I guess the population in Utah has doubled since the ML season came about in the 80's and everything is more crowded.

-DallanC


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I don't understand why the recurve guys don't attach the compound guys like this on a regular basis? I guess because it really doesn't matter. Let's try to stay united guys.


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## sbs20ga (Sep 20, 2009)

This has been kind-a fun, but i'm done. 
for some of us old guys, i guess the world has just moved on . I'm just never going to understand why one would opt for the challange of a muzzleloader, and then do everything they can to make it a modern rifle. Just get a modern rifle in the first place.
Some of you have posted some good points. some have ignored other good points. Still, i find it a little interesring that all i did was ask why, and there was only one or two who came up with a reason FOR , and many who jumped right into defensive mode. i think a psycologist might find a little guilt complex at work there. 
One guy,( really sorry, forgot who) wrote something about the increased opportunity of the muzzleloader hunt, after being pushed out of the general season hunt--- where do the tratitional black powder hunters go now that they are "Pushed" out of the muzzleloader hunt ?
---anyway---
good luck, and happy hunting to all- hope you all put venison on the table this fall.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> I don't understand why the recurve guys don't attach the compound guys like this on a regular basis? I guess because it really doesn't matter. Let's try to stay united guys.


Ohh Tex does! Ya should try huntin camp with him! One thing I like about the dude is he does it for himself and doen't care if I have wheels/cams/sights/release or whatever..... He is there to please himself!


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

Tak said,


> ...or whatever..... He is there to please himself!


I like my cap gun, but I'll hunt right along side a guy with an inline, synthetic stock, 1X scope, ppppppyrodex (hard for me to say the "p" word) and sabots. I guess I'm there to please myself as well.

Good luck to all on the hunt....18 days till the opener!


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

sbs20ga said:


> PULeeese, milk jugs at 200 yds. msot people would find that a challange with an '06.
> i would never be one to take anyones hunting opportunities away. hunt with those modern guns if you want. You have however, taken my prefered hunting method away. Since those guns came on the scene, the muzzleloader season has become one of the most popular, and is becomming as overcrowded as the general hunt--- and shortened--.
> Hunt with those guns if you want, but please don't act like you have done something exceptional 'cause you got your game with a muzzleloader. Getting your buck, or bull is an accomplishment, and something to be proud of, but no more cool with a modern muzzleloader than with a single shot metallic cartridge rifle.
> I JUST DON"T GET IT !!


If "most" people would find it a challenge to hit a milk jug at 200 yds. with an '06, but easy with a muzzleloader, why would they bother with the '06? And no matter how high your horse is, don't try to tell me that you didn't do everything you could to make your gun (regardless of make, model, caliber, ignition type, or barrel length) as accurate as possible. You can still hunt your preferred method. Nobody took it away from you. You can don your buckskins, carry a powder horn, cast your own lead balls, and wear a **** skin cap if you want to. Heck you can even weave your own cloth to make patches with if you want. I'm gonna hunt during the muzzleloader season with a muzzleloading rifle.

Fishrmn


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> lehi said:
> 
> 
> > Whats up with these wimpy "200" yard claims? My inline shoots out to 800 yards ethically.
> ...


Why yes, I have. You can click on my profile and go through my posts, there are some serious ones in there. No need to get all worked up over my sarcasm, dude. 

This thread just seemed so whiny and pitiful to me. If someone doesn't like using inlines, I feel like I shouldn't have to explain to them why I use an inline. If I am obeying the law and taking ethical shots at an animal and happen to harvest a good buck or bull with an inline, I sure as hell have every **** right to feel proud about it.

peace


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

lehi said:


> Why yes, I have. You can click on my profile and go through my posts, there are some serious ones in there. No need to get all worked up over my sarcasm, dude.


I was just messing with you, not that I care. Anything to hijack the post is an improvement IMHO.


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> lehi said:
> 
> 
> > Why yes, I have. You can click on my profile and go through my posts, there are some serious ones in there. No need to get all worked up over my sarcasm, dude.
> ...


I agree :lol:


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## REPETER (Oct 3, 2007)

sbs20ga said:


> Still, i find it a little interesring that all i did was ask why, and there was only one or two who came up with a reason FOR , and many who jumped right into defensive mode. i think a psycologist might find a little *guilt complex* at work there.
> One guy,( really sorry, forgot who) wrote something about the increased opportunity of the muzzleloader hunt, after being pushed out of the general season hunt--- where do the tratitional black powder hunters go now that they are "Pushed" out of the muzzleloader hunt ?


It is a funny comment about the guilt complex comment coming from such a victim standpoint. :O•-: Or is it all of our Ids to blame for ruining your fun? I guess that would make you a super-ego? o-||

Good luck on your hunt too. And whatever you do~ don't have fun! It isn't enjoyable anymore.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Why I hunt with an inline: 
1) It is very light weight, under 5 pounds.
2) I have broken my wood stocks on my older traditional guns, have never on a synthetic.
3) Easier to clean
4) Feel more confident with accuracy

Why I hunt with a muzzle loader:

1) I like the season dates better than rifle hunt 
2) It is still more challenging than my 7mm mag.


I've hunted with both types and can shoot as good with either but after all the hard work I put into scouting I want a gun I feel the most confortable with to get the job done and that is with an line. JMHO


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Well said Ridgetop.

My #1 reason I prefer an inline is it has a *SAFTEY*.

I once fell while stalking a buck with my sidelock. I smashed the action of my T/C Hawkin on a rock sheering off the catch allowing the hammer to swing free. Scared the bejesus out of me. Luckily TC replaced it all free of charge (love the lifetime warrenty).

As for accuracy, reliability I'm comfortable with either type.

Cleaning though, hands down the Hawkin is easier.

-DallanC


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

sbs20ga said:


> ok, so everybody just jumped out defending your "in lines" and no one attempted to answer the question. so i'll try to word it differently. What is the attraction to using a rifle during a muzzle loader season, that you do everything possible, short of loading from the front, to turn it into a modern centerfire ? like i said. i just don't get it.
> i don't have a problem with anyone using them, but i believe they belong in the general hunt.
> let me answer the basic question for you. you chose them over a traditional because :
> -1. they are more reliable
> ...


Inlines are cool. If you don't think they are cool, don't use one. Quit whining. You act as if all us inliners have to do to is walk out in the woods and pull the **** trigger to kill a buck. The 3 reasons you listed are a few good reasons why we use them. What more do you want? Is it really stressing you out that bad? I seriously doubt inliners have much more success than traditional guys anyway.

Peace :^8^:


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Trust me, there are some inlines out there that you would be lucky to hit the mountain with let alone the game you are shooting at lol. My first experience with an inline was case in point. No matter what grain bullet I used, what type of powder I tried or how many grains i used it never shot better then 8 inch groups at 100 yards FROM A REST!! My first hunt I fired 3 shots on the last day of the hunt at a one horned 2 point broadside at 75 yards.....All the while he stood and stared at me with this dumb look I will never forget heheh. Finally I literally put the rifle down and ran at him with a rock in hand. I think I actually hit closer to him with the rock then the gun. Now with my Knight Bighorn I'm spot on at about 160. (**** I wish I could find that little one horned bastage now lol) My point is its still a challenge having one shot and figuring out which of literally thousands of combinations works best in your gun.


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## quakeycrazy (Sep 18, 2007)

TS30 said:


> You can still get out and find solitude on the muzzleloader. You just can't do it in your truck or on an ATV.
> 
> As for sbs, I'm sure he is hunting with an obsidian arrow head crafted on the end of a stick he cut, smoothed, and straightened himself using only primitive tools. But it's not being shot by a recurve bow. That's too modern. And the only real advantage of that anyway is that it's easier. A real man only uses a spear.


Right on bro!!! Took the words right out of my mouth!!! haha ahah


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

sbs20ga said:


> This has been kind-a fun, but i'm done.
> for some of us old guys, i guess the world has just moved on . I'm just never going to understand why one would opt for the challange of a muzzleloader, and then do everything they can to make it a modern rifle. Just get a modern rifle in the first place.
> Some of you have posted some good points. some have ignored other good points. Still, i find it a little interesring that all i did was ask why, and there was only one or two who came up with a reason FOR , and many who jumped right into defensive mode. i think a psycologist might find a little guilt complex at work there.
> One guy,( really sorry, forgot who) wrote something about the increased opportunity of the muzzleloader hunt, after being pushed out of the general season hunt--- where do the tratitional black powder hunters go now that they are "Pushed" out of the muzzleloader hunt ?
> ...


Where do the traditional black powder hunters go..... Well if they are as high and mighty as you maybe you should be pushed to sportmans to buy a new muzzleloader. :roll:


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