# WOUNDED ANIMALS - What Percentage of Tag Holders



## jungle (May 10, 2008)

I find the number of archery wounded animals on this forum alarming. There is no excuse. You guys and gals are better than that; but then I suppose all the technology has rendered your primordial instincts as dormant as as slug in winter, I am sorry to say. And of course, you learn of your true character when tempted and alone.....

At least there is some honesty about the folks who get on this forum and admit to wounding and losing game asking for help. As a professional scientist and founder of three businesses, I have developed a sixth sense as strong as my hunting instinct about human behavior; and I can assure you the number of folks cowering behind the truth is, well, so staggering it makes me want to puke. It is a far greater number than those who are coming forward asking for help.

Based on what I have seen on this forum- and more importantly, not seen- the number of animals wounded and lost is at least 10 to 20% of the permittees or even higher. That is thousands of animals just in the State of Utah. Way to go, lets give PETA the smokin' bow *they ve been* _hunting _for.

You might be a ******* if you say, "I m gonna punch my tag because that is one deer that I wounded." What a pathetic excuse for lousy woodsmanship and marksmanship but then, alas, I guess its better than 2 or 8 wounds per tag.

I am not saying it does not happen to the best of us- maybe once or twice in lifetime. But good heavens, NOT 10 TO 20%! Heck, even a small percentage of TV shows are admitting to losing wounded game.

Once while sighting in my rifle, I looked up and was watching some deer above the range. I was of course jacked up when I saw a very nice, wide heavy mule deer moving several hundred yards above. When I put my scope on him my delight shattered when I saw an arrow sticking out of its rump, causing him to limp while looking for food.

1. Renew your resolve to take only those shots YOU KNOW can make when you release the arrow. Be honest. Take 10 yards off your best 4 inch group-range for your actual killing distance under ideal circumstances. For me that is no more than 30 yards killing distance. If its windy or light is bad then its 25. If I am exhausted its 20.

2. Like a basketball launched on its way to what you know is going to be 2pts before it leaves your hands, you need to become instinctive with your compound bow. That is the only way you know you have a good shot. Pins and range finders cannot supplant 1 million years of evolution invested in you but when used in tandem, its unstoppable.

3. Go to 3-d ranges with unknown distances and leave your damned range finder at home when you practice. Time to awaken the primordial ancestors in your soul once again. You should _feel_ the arrow to its target as though an extension of your will.

4. Make sure it is safe but practice at night when you cant see your target if you really want an experience in developing a relationship with your equipment. My single best group was at 30 yards way past dusk. I could barely make out the clump of hay that held my target let alone the target. I had to shoot my compound by feel. I released when I felt I was on and ended up stacking, no, jamming three arrows together.

5. Do not give up looking for the animal. Wait at least an hour. Low crawl all night if you have to. Recruit friends. Watch for circling birds.

A. Legislatively, we need to allow dogs to help with recovery if it is not already allowed.

B. And we need a performance certification because its obvious there is little self-governance occuring within the archery community.

And one more thing. I have recovered every deer hit with my arrow. One doe at 10 yards. I am a novice archer and I know squat compared to what you know about bowhunting  .......


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

****......Glad I'm not a bowhunter, cuz you all just got put in your place! I've yet to lose an animal to my .270.....some may call me a p*ssy for hunting with a gun, but my kill ratio is at 100%.....Not all clean though, so **** me if you must.
This is the one thing that I am not really a fan of with Archery hunting. FIRST, let me say I know not everyone on here has this mentality. I DO NOT want to lump everyone in to one category. But it seems that archery is coming more and more popular over the years. And just like every other type of hunting, you get your share of "retards" for lack of a better term. The "That looks fun, I think I'll try it!" mentality is going to really screw things up for a lot of people.....including those who aren't archers. There are plenty of US out there who do not put in there time with their weapon. Unfortunately, it's a little more costly to the animals for those who don't spend the time with their Archery tackle. A rump shot with an arrow, the deer will still walk......a rump shot with a rifle.....that deer isn't getting away too fast.

Just my two cents. I am sure I ruffled a few feathers......but for those of you who are ruffled, maybe you are the ones that need to look at your habits the hardest.


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## broncbuster (Jul 22, 2009)

I hate to burst your bubble but there are many more animals wounded with a rifle then bow, More people hunt with a rifle and take long shots. More elk then deer get wounded and lost when hit with a rifle because lots of times they just don't fall over they run back it the trees and the hunter thinks he missed and doesn't even go look for it. I agree to many animals get lost in both rifle and bow hunts because of hunter neglect.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

broncbuster said:


> I hate to burst your bubble but there are many more animals wounded with a rifle then bow, More people hunt with a rifle and take long shots. More elk then deer get wounded and lost when hit with a rifle because lots of times they just don't fall over they run back it the trees and the hunter thinks he missed and doesn't even go look for it. I agree to many animals get lost in both rifle and bow hunts because of hunter neglect.


+1000

Jungle, overall a pretty good post and I agree with a majority of it. I agree many people need a wake up call and all of us need a reminder of how important it is to be as ethical as we can be. I cringe every time I hear someone say that I normally only shoot blank yards, but this buck was huge so I let one rip.

Where I disagree with you is the range finder. I agree practice without it as much as possible because you can't always use it, but if you can use it, take the guess work out of it. I came around a hill opening day and there was a three point standing broadside to me looking the other direction. I "guessed" that it was 25 yards, then I ranged it at 22 yards. My buddy I was hunting with walked over the hill and spooked it off before I could get a shot at it, but why guess when you can know for sure.

Anyways, all weapons are guilty of wounded animals and lost animals and it sucks. We all need to play out scenarios in our head because when that big buck or bull is in front of you and your adrenaline is rushing sometimes you may make a bad decision. Just set limits and STICK to them.


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## MarkM (Sep 7, 2007)

broncbuster said:


> I hate to burst your bubble but there are many more animals wounded with a rifle then bow, More people hunt with a rifle and take long shots. More elk then deer get wounded and lost when hit with a rifle because lots of times they just don't fall over they run back it the trees and the hunter thinks he missed and doesn't even go look for it. I agree to many animals get lost in both rifle and bow hunts because of hunter neglect.


Very true, I few years ago I was in the Dedicated hunter program and hunted the same area pretty hard all three seasons. I talked to lots of hunters in the area and how they did. By far more animals were shot and lost on the rifle hunt than the other hunts.In fact that year I only heard about one animal shot and lost on the archery and two on the ML but heard about 5 lost on the rifle hunt. This was just in a small area but I bet it holds up statewide.

One year on the rifle hunt I was sitting on a ridge and some guys on 4 wheelers were riding a road on the other side. They stopped and took about 4 shots on my ridge about 200 yards down from me. I ranged it from where I was and it was over 500 yards. They sat and watched for a while but nade no move to come and chaeck out there shots. After they left I went down the ridge and came apon a blood trail that went over the ridge. I followed it aways but never found anything.

I think that part of the problem is that archery is a close range sport and hunters usually can tell if they hit something or not. Some rifle hunters take long shots and expect there deer to drop onthe spot, when they don't they think they missed.

I like hunting with all three weapons (Archey is my favorite though) and it is up to us to take ethical shots no matter what our weappon choice.

Mark


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## izzydog (Jan 18, 2008)

Unfortunately, wounding animals is part of the game and if you are a hunter you need to accept the fact that it can happen, no matter what your weapon. I have a friend that shot a cow on the archery hunt and made a good shot and there was a large blood trail that we ended up following for 4 days and somehow we never found the elk. My friend was about ready to give up hunting after that incident but luckily he didn't and has taken some nice animals since then. We still talk about the sick feeling that we had and still have and it has made us better hunters. He did nothing unethical but we still lost an animal and that is the worst feeling ever. My point is, sometimes animals get wounded, even if you do everything right, and if you think it is more prevalent with a bow and arrow you are crazy.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I, too, agree with most of what you say, Jungle, but I must say that I think you assume way too much. It seems that because some are saying that they shot an animal and couldn't find it that you are assuming that animal has been wounded. However, just because an archer is unable to find an arrowed animal does NOT believe that animal is still alive and only wounded...often times the animal is dead. As has been mentioned by others, perhaps the most ethical of hunters will stop hunting if he/she has already stuck an animal if he/she is unable to find the one hit. 

Also, claiming that an ethical hunter will only have 1 or 2 lost animals in a lifetime is a bit condescending--the number of wounded/lost animals is probably highly variable according to how many animals a hunter shoots at during his/her lifetime. The bottom line is that so many factors come into play that a hunter cannot account for that shots off target happen much more than anyone can ever plan for. Things like sudden gusts of wind, sudden movement by the animal, malfunction of gear, and even unexpected obstructions that may deflect arrows. The truth is that nobody hits the bullseye perfectly on every shot...especially while hunting.

And, personally, I think the worst thing archery hunting needs is to force hunters into acquiring some kind of performance certification...that's a terrible way to recruit new hunters into an already diminishing sport. To me, you are fueling PETA more by requiring such certification than you would by wounding more animals every year! 

The fact is that hunting is a blood sport and, as such, animals are not often found, tagged, or even killed. As hunters we need to work to reduce the number of such animals, but not at the detriment to the sport's future!


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## ROI (Jul 13, 2009)

I have always wondered why archers have considered taking a shot and missing or wounding an animal as some sort of success or something to brag about. You never hear rifle hunters bragging about missing a shot or wounding an animal. 

I personnally don't think archers wound anymore animals than rifle or muzzleloaders do. The difference in my opinion is archery hunting is more difficult and successes or fewer; so having to prop up our egos gets in the way, and missing or wounding has become something to broadcast or talk about rather than reflect on as a failure.

Even some successes make you look like an idiot. Last week a bowhunter talked to me about making a 60 yard shot on a buck. He hit the buck perfectly and everything was great, but both of us knew that he couldn't make that shot one out of twenty times. As I offerred my congrats on a nice buck, I wanted to ask him if he knew the shot he took was a mistake.

It has become trendy to punch your tag after a screw up. It seems to make it alright to talk about your mistakes. I woud prefer that hunters just punch the tag quietly rather than it becoming another way to brag.

If feel completely different about the "Tag Soup" ego boost. I would much rather hear about a long season of hunting and passing up shots than about your screw ups.

Bowhunting would also be served by redefining effective range. If we can hit the vitals on a deer taget everytime at 80 yards, not just most of the time but everytime. Then we should consider our effective range at 60 yards on a live animal. The 20 yard back off is the respect that we all should show the animals we hunt.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

I reply in kind to several above replies:

I did not say leave your rangefinder at home during the hunt but only to get the instinctive part of shooting back. Then, of course, use the range finder on the hunt. 

I make no condescending assumption about wounding numbers though I do make a statistical extrapolation. I am suggesting a personal resolve to raise your mental hardness to zero-tolerance for lost game. My essay is based on "known" hits. We can no longer accept, "Hey it happens." It has to be "Hey, it happens and it is unacceptable." 

One post above seems to want to point fingers at rifle hunters to justify mediocrity. That is what I am talking about. That post actually works to substantiate my point, thank you for that. Rifle hunters take heed as well. 

One great point is the huge influx of newbies taking shots that should be restricted to olympic archers and elite snipers who actually know how to shoot.


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## rockymountainelk (Jan 18, 2009)

ROI said:


> I have always wondered why archers have considered taking a shot and missing or wounding an animal as some sort of success or something to brag about. You never hear rifle hunters bragging about missing a shot or wounding an animal.
> 
> I personnally don't think archers wound anymore animals than rifle or muzzleloaders do. The difference in my opinion is archery hunting is more difficult and successes or fewer; so having to prop up our egos gets in the way, and missing or wounding has become something to broadcast or talk about rather than reflect on as a failure.
> 
> ...


:?: :?: :?: -O,- :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :!: I have never heard anyone brag about wounding an animal be it rifle or bow hunters. You must hang with some messed up dudes if they are braging about wounding animals. I would say find some new hunting bubbys


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## ROI (Jul 13, 2009)

RockyMountainElk ...

Have you read any of the wounding posts ???? 

The guys can't keep their mouths shut. Everyone of the wounding posts is a bragfest. They can't post a picture of an animal, because they screwed up, so instead they hide behind "What should I do", or "How long will it stay good", or "I'll punch my tag" posts. 

If you don't know the answers - do us all a favor and stay home or ask the questions before you draw blood. If you make a mistake or your just an idiot, at least keep you mouth shut so you don't make us all look like bad. 

You can put frosting on a turd and call it a cupcake. But coming on here and asking for help after wounding an animal is bragging about a mistake that has gone very bad. No matter how sugary and sweet the post maybe.

The very same information can be gained without the wounding information. But without the wounding story no one knows how great a "hunter" they are.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2009)

I think Jungle has raised some very good points and that takes some guts because doing so does not make you very popular. Here are my thoughts on this subject.

I have been an avid hunter for about 15 years now and have pursued big game using all three of the weapons sanctioned by the Utah DWR: archery, muzzleloader, and centerfire rifle, so I think I have a pretty good understanding of the challenges and issues facing each one. Each camp has its share of idiots who are a detriment to the sport of hunting, so I think it is wrong to single out one in particular. Someone mentioned that more animals are wounded on the rifle hunt than any other and I have no doubt this is true just due of the sheer number of hunters who take to the hills during the general rifle hunts. How many of them are really competent with their rifle? What is the average number of hours spent before the hunt practicing at the range and in the field in the sort of conditions they are likely to encounter on the hunt? How many of them are carrying rifles that are even properly sighted in? The same questions can be applied to muzzleloader hunters as well. The only difference is that the degree of difficulty increases as you move from rifle to muzzleloader to archery. For this reason alone I would venture to claim that, taken as a whole, there is a far greater percentage of dedicated hunters, and an all around higher level of skill in the archery and muzzleloader camps than there is in the rifle hunter camp. That being said, let me ask a rhetorical question: what is the difference between an archery hunter who takes a 60 yard shot on a buck, and a rifle hunter who takes a 400 yard shot? Both shots are about equal in the percentage that will result in a clean kill: LOW! Are there highly skilled shooters in both camps who can make that shot a majority of the time? Absolutely! But for the majority of hunters in both camps each one is simply beyond the range of what would represent an ethical shot on a living animal with all the other factors that come to play in the field such as wind, fatigue, "buck fever", etc.

I used the word "ethical" in my last sentence, and this word alone seems to stir up a fair amount of debate when used in the context of hunting because it is a word that suggests some ideal that is both difficult to define, and not universally shared by all hunters. But there must be some sort of ethical code of conduct if the sport of hunting is to endure in this post-modern age of liberalism and media sensationalism. We simply must define ourselves in this way or we will let our enemies define us instead, to our eventual destruction. The concept that I feel best embodies the high ethical standard of hunting that will insulate us from the propaganda of the anti-hunting campaign is that of "Fair Chase". There used to be a link http://www.huntfairchase.com on the left side of this forum that I think Pete and the others should bring back. The essence of fair chase is summed up in these words by the great Saxton Pope:


> The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved, and the fairness of the sport.


Just because Saxton Pope hunted with a traditional long bow does not mean that we must all do the same in order to subscribe to the concept of fair chase. But clearly, the more we rely on technology to give us an "edge" over our quarry, the further we distance ourselves from this ideal, and the more our enemies cackle with glee. The animals we pursue have not changed much since our ancestors hunted them with stone-tipped spears. They rely on the same defenses that they did back then: a keen sense of smell, hearing, vision, and physical adaptations. These have not changed while our technology has progressed from spear to bow to flintlock to high power rifle. How many of these defenses can we neutralize before the honor and dignity of hunting is lost? How much further can we push this advantage before we cease to be engaged in the tradition of hunting, and instead are merely killing? I guess every hunter who cares about the timeless tradition of hunting, and wishes to pass it on to his/her children and grand-children must decide this for him/herself.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

WeakenedWarrior said:


> I think Jungle has raised some very good points and that takes some guts because doing so does not make you very popular. Here are my thoughts on this subject.
> 
> I have been an avid hunter for about 15 years now and have pursued big game using all three of the weapons sanctioned by the Utah DWR: archery, muzzleloader, and centerfire rifle, so I think I have a pretty good understanding of the challenges and issues facing each one. Each camp has its share of idiots who are a detriment to the sport of hunting, so I think it is wrong to single out one in particular. Someone mentioned that more animals are wounded on the rifle hunt than any other and I have no doubt this is true just due of the sheer number of hunters who take to the hills during the general rifle hunts. How many of them are really competent with their rifle? What is the average number of hours spent before the hunt practicing at the range and in the field in the sort of conditions they are likely to encounter on the hunt? How many of them are carrying rifles that are even properly sighted in? The same questions can be applied to muzzleloader hunters as well. The only difference is that the degree of difficulty increases as you move from rifle to muzzleloader to archery. For this reason alone I would venture to claim that, taken as a whole, there is a far greater percentage of dedicated hunters, and an all around higher level of skill in the archery and muzzleloader camps than there is in the rifle hunter camp. That being said, let me ask a rhetorical question: what is the difference between an archery hunter who takes a 60 yard shot on a buck, and a rifle hunter who takes a 400 yard shot? Both shots are about equal in the percentage that will result in a clean kill: LOW! Are there highly skilled shooters in both camps who can make that shot a majority of the time? Absolutely! But for the majority of hunters in both camps each one is simply beyond the range of what would represent an ethical shot on a living animal with all the other factors that come to play in the field such as wind, fatigue, "buck fever", etc.
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Yeah really cool making fun of our mentally challenged forum member. I hope you're happy. :roll: I'll bet you kick your dog too!


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## rockymountainelk (Jan 18, 2009)

ROI said:


> RockyMountainElk ...
> 
> Have you read any of the wounding posts ????
> 
> ...


 -_O- -_O- -_O- -_O- :rotfl: :rotfl: (ROI) It sounds to me like you have had one too many of them frosting covered turds. If you did not notice one of those posts happen to be from me. I have been hunting for well over 15 years and have taken more big game animals then I can count. I have never taken a shot out of my range with a bow or a rifle, including this year. I also have never lost an animal. Well s$$$ happens to the best of us. I had an elk turn on me right as I shot. He was at 38 yards. Well within my shooting range. Well this being the first animal I have not found. I simple posted to ask the question of weather or not I should pack out the whole animal or not when I do find him. Notice I said when not if. That is because I have and continue to spend every bit of time I have in the hills looking for him. I did not post to brag in anyway. I did nothing to brag about. I am sick about what happened but I did nothing wrong and could not have changed anything that happened. It takes a very immature and unknowledgeable guy to come on here and accuse people of being unethical hunters and making mistakes. Especially without knowing any facts about what happened. I don't know if it's the turds you have been eating or the screw loose in your head but if all you can come up with to post is calling out and degrading other hunters without knowing any facts I think you may just want to stop typing and think for a few minutes before you post. No hard feelings though. Just get your facts straight and don't call out the whole crowd when it is only one or two people in the crowd that are in the wrong


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

ROI said:


> RockyMountainElk ...
> 
> Have you read any of the wounding posts ????
> 
> ...


Great comment. My partner and I were talking about how many archers brag about "sticking a buck." My partner had one guy actually brag to him that he stuck 5 different bucks.

The overall wounding numbers must be greater than I thought. And, no, rifle hunters and muzzleloaders are not off the hook either.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

There certainly are those who take a lot of shots; many of which are not good shots. I can only speak for myself. In 15 years of hunting I have taken a total of four shots, one quick and clean kill that also jumped the string back and it luckily snagged the femoral artery. Of course, we waited for nearly two hours before we even began to track since we saw him trot off pretty quickly. I knew it connected, but was not sure of the contact point as he was perfectly broadside at the release and was quartering away at impact. Other shot was mechanical failure missing miserably, one hit a doe in leg barely that ran off very well and did not have hardly any blood when I was about 16...maybe there were only 3?? I am very picky of my shots because of the bad feeling I had after injuring the doe; it made me be much more careful on shot selection. No bragging here, just my own experience, of which I have never "stuck" a deer that ran off maimed to very possibly die within a few days. Same deal on muzzy and rifle hunts, pass on a lot of shots just waiting...


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## ROI (Jul 13, 2009)

RockyMountainElk ... 

It is even WORSE when you present a resume of experience and killing countless animals, followed by a wounding story. Inclulding the lame comment of it can happen to anyone. If it can happen to a hunter of your caliber, then it must be happening everyday to hundreds of lesser bowhunters. There must be thousands of animals dying slow deaths in the hills right now.

Overstated, probably..... Do some people in power believe it. Why shouldn't they, we bowhunters are posting about wounding over and over. 

The rifle hunters have played this arguement against us for years. Just recently I heard t used as an arguement against giving archers once-in-a lifetime tags. The comment was for everyone they kill they will wound three. We know that isn't true but we as archers play into it with our posts and comments.

RockyMountainElk... Just like elk hunting, archers need to learn when to talk and when to keep their mouths shut. 

If some people on here feel like they have a knife in your back, I apologize. I meant to stick it right in your chest and be right in your face.

I really don't care how great a bowhunter you are !!!!!!

If you make a mistake. Rally a couple close friends and do your best to fix it. Then keep it to yourself and learn from it. If you feel the need to ask for information, leave out the wounding details. 

Our own words will bury our sport.


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## rockymountainelk (Jan 18, 2009)

-oOo- -oOo- -oOo- -oOo- O*-- O*-- O*-- O*-- -oOo- -oOo- -oOo- -oOo- :lol: :lol:


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

rockymountainelk said:


> Well s$$$ happens to the best of us. I had an elk turn on me right as I shot, He was at 38 yards, Well within my shooting range. Well this being the first animal I have not found.


 Let me ask this question. How can you "Ethical" hunters determine if an animal is going to turn or move right before you release your arrow? You can't!!! This post above hits it right on the head, you are never going to be able to read the animals mind. Deer and Elk will jump or move to the sound of your arrow coming off your rest more than you think. There is plenty of time for a deer to switch positions while your arrow is in flight. I think most archery hunters are well aware of the dangers and risks involved with shooting an arrow at an animal. We do the best we can to take the best shots, but no matter who you are you cant determine what a an animal is going to do before that arrow hits. It's hunting! If you hunt, you should realize that this may happen from time to time. Deal with it and move on, because this is a waste of time as far as I'm concerned. This post gives PETA more reason to jump on our backs, and we don't need anymore of that. Most of these posts are simple mistakes that people have amde and they are seeking advice. I see no problem with that, and neither should you. _O\


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## rockymountainelk (Jan 18, 2009)

HJB said:


> rockymountainelk said:
> 
> 
> > Well s$$$ happens to the best of us. I had an elk turn on me right as I shot, He was at 38 yards, Well within my shooting range. Well this being the first animal I have not found.
> ...


+1


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## ROI (Jul 13, 2009)

When hunters stop replaying their mistakes on the web. Then I will stop taking them to task. Ask the question without the details !!!!!!!! You get the information - hunters don't get a black eye.


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## rockymountainelk (Jan 18, 2009)

ROI said:


> When hunters stop replaying their mistakes on the web. Then I will stop taking them to task. Ask the question without the details !!!!!!!! You get the information - hunters don't get a black eye.


I agree with you 100%. Just don't call out all of us archery hunters when it is only a few making the mistakes you are talking about.


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## Size Matters (Dec 22, 2007)

I agree there are more deer lost on the rifle hunt how ever there are a lot more hunters than with a bow so it would be interesting to see how many animals were lost per 10 hunters in the field I would imagine it would lean towards the Bow hunters.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

HJB said:


> rockymountainelk said:
> 
> 
> > Well s$$$ happens to the best of us. I had an elk turn on me right as I shot, He was at 38 yards, Well within my shooting range. Well this being the first animal I have not found.
> ...


I just ordered my new bow from Totally Awesome Bows by Super Dell and it shoots 3200fps so that wont ever be a problem.


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