# Point and tags



## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

my thoughts are , What if you could only draw out for one tag per year but you could put in for points on all you want? just thinking this might give you an opportunity to hunt every year but a different animal with a lower point total needed. now think if you want bull elk and there are 20000 elk tags that means 20000 people who spend their points if they want to hunt bull elk. no double dipping you are done for that year win or lose in the draw. everything straight up points total no random (lucky mike getting a tag with 1 point) now that is 20000 hunters that cannot apply for deer, or anything else only point. if you dont draw you still get a point. someone who knows more about the draw can im sure point out the flaws in this but putting your love of hunting aside for everyone growing up and coming into the system we need to start thinking outside the box.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

So basically what you want, is to extremely limit opportunities for people to go hunting, while giving everyone the option to build points for everything in the mean time, adding to the point creep butt plug 100x more than what we already currently have? Besides cutting people’s hunting time every year to just 2 weekends, what else did you do? Nothing beneficial, that’s for sure.

I’ve said it a million times. 1) I’m not worried about youth hunting opportunities. There’s PLENTY of youth opportunities for them currently. If you aren’t hunting EVERY weekend from August to January, that’s your fault as a parent. Not the states, not the sportsmen with multiple tags, it’s the parents. Get your kids out there on your own. Don’t ask others to sacrifice their hunting and opportunities, when in the end, you don’t take advantage of what’s currently out there. 2) WE DONT NEED MORE HUNTERS IN THE WESTERN US. We have plenty. Most the new ones these days I’m almost certain are in it for the wrong reasons. Hunting for social media flex and cuz it’s ‘cool’ isn’t the right reasons. Don’t push everyone and their dog to be involved in hunting. Let parents and mentors decide who the right kids are to recruit. If you can’t handle the fact that not everyone is a winner in drawing a tag every year, then I promise trying to kill an animal probably isn’t for you. 3) Utah has currently many opportunities. Trying to limit the opportunities a person can have every year so everyone can ‘be a winner’ is what’s gotten us into this mess country wide that we are in right now. NOT EVERYONE CAN BE A WINNER. Quit trying to turn this state into California where everything is ‘fair’. Life isn’t fair. Not drawing tags every year isn’t fair. GET OVER IT and go take advantage of the opportunity that is still out there for every licensed hunter in the state.

It’s mind blowing how many hunters are advocating for more restrictions and less opportunities, for not only everyone else but for themselves! We should be taking a hard stance on keeping what we have! But instead guys are folding faster than a cheap lawn chair. And over what? Not drawing a **** cow tag this year? Not getting an any bull tag when they were on sale for 8.5 hours and passing up a spike tag at the same time? Geez. Talk about an entitled attitude. Grow up and go take advantage of what we do have available to everyone! Tons of waterfowl, upland and other OTC opportunities for all. Pick up a bow and go chase cows and spikes. Or quit applying for harder to get tags. There’s still tons of permits that can be drawn with 0-1 points every year. If you’re only goal is to go hunting more, then you should have zero problem with going for these tags instead of the higher success or trophy tags most guys put in for. Ironically, those same guys are usually the ones crying about never drawing and there not being enough opportunities.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

calm down, i am not trying anything i just want my kids to hunt EVERY year and if it would help for people to only hunt one species so a younger hunter could get more involved i would do it. i just think the guy that buys an elk tag drew out for deer and antlerless elk and deer in Utah and then hunts in two more states will waist a lot of meat because no one can eat that much in a year if we are limited there will be more opportunity in the end and it will mean more.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

bossloader said:


> calm down, i am not trying anything i just want my kids to hunt EVERY year and if it would help for people to only hunt one species so a younger hunter could get more involved i would do it. i just think the guy that buys an elk tag drew out for deer and antlerless elk and deer in Utah and then hunts in two more states will waist a lot of meat because no one can eat that much in a year if we are limited there will be more opportunity in the end and it will mean more.


YOUR KIDS CAN HUNT EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. OTC youth archery deer tags for every unit. OTC spike and any bull tags. Unlimited archery spike/cow/any bull tags. Youth waterfowl hunts. Youth upland hunts. Youth elk hunts. OTC spring youth turkey/general hunts. OTC HO bear and lion hunts. OTC fall turkey tags. OTC control Antlerless tags. 20% general deer permits and antlerless allocation to all youth. Geezus what TF else do you want? The **** animals tied to a tree for you? I'll bet you aren't taking advantage of hardly any, if any of those options at all. If you were, you wouldn't have any room to complain about youth opportunities. Thousands of hunters in Utah didn't have any youth opportunities growing up. The ones that did, had maybe the 3 season youth deer tag advantage and the youth duck hunt. That's it. Me included. The state has gone out of their way to create youth opportunities. And apparently that's not good enough.

They have the mentor program for kids! How many tags have YOU mentored to them??

And get out of here with your wasted meat argument. If that's one of your base points to change the system, it's bullchit. No one here with a reasonable outlook on the big picture will buy into it. My family shot 19 big game animals in 2017, just in Utah. Not a single ounce of meat went to waste. It was consumed by my family or donated to friends and neighbors who wanted it. If people are wasting meat, the amount of tags they have in their pockets isn't the big issue. They'd waste 1 animal as much as they do 7. Either way that's a separate issue. And if they are wasting animals, then that goes back to my hunting for wrong reasons statement.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

bossloader said:


> calm down, i am not trying anything i just want my kids to hunt EVERY year and if it would help for people to only hunt one species so a younger hunter could get more involved i would do it. i just think the guy that buys an elk tag drew out for deer and antlerless elk and deer in Utah and then hunts in two more states will waist a lot of meat because no one can eat that much in a year if we are limited there will be more opportunity in the end and it will mean more.


For me it is about the hunt and not the meat. I might kill a deer every 4 or 5 years. I shot one in 2015 and then another one in 2019 but there have been a lot of years that I go home with nothing but memories. I am lucky in that I have a lifetime license and can hunt deer in Utah every year but I limit myself to what I kill.

But also as was mentioned above, get your kids interested in archery hunting. They will love it if they enjoy the outdoors and hunting.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I appreciate where your coming from and I realize we will have to make some concessions eventually but that’s too extreme for me right now. 

I know the elk tag situation freaked a bunch of people out, myself included but let’s not go walking the plank just yet. 

And the “I just want my kids to be able to hunt every year in the future” is laughable to me right now. Not that it can’t be taken away at some point but holy jeezuz, any father with a bit of awareness can smother their kids with tags these days.

For the 3rd year in a row since my daughter turned 12 I’m looking at her tags and thinking to myself “So many tags, so little time” 🤔


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

My son as a youth: Killed 4 elk, 4 pronghorn, 5 deer. And he did it with rifles, muzzleloaders and a bow.

Thats more total than I had killed by my early 30's. He also killed one buck pronghorn thats bigger than my biggest buck to-date.

-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

DallanC said:


> My son as a youth: Killed 4 elk, 4 pronghorn, 5 deer. And he did it with rifles, muzzleloaders and a bow.
> 
> Thats more total than I had killed by my early 30's. He also killed one buck pronghorn thats bigger than my biggest buck to-date.
> 
> -DallanC


Out of curiosity, what year did he turn 18?


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

3arabians said:


> And the "I just want my kids to be able to hunt every year in the future" is laughable to me right now. Not that it can't be taken away at some point but holy jeezuz, any father with a bit of awareness can smother their kids with tags these days.
> 
> For the 3rd year in a row since my daughter turned 12 I'm looking at her tags and thinking to myself "So many tags, so little time" &#129300;





DallanC said:


> My son as a youth: Killed 4 elk, 4 pronghorn, 5 deer. And he did it with rifles, muzzleloaders and a bow.
> 
> Thats more total than I had killed by my early 30's. He also killed one buck pronghorn thats bigger than my biggest buck to-date.
> 
> -DallanC


I hunt vicariously through my kids. My two daughters have taken more game and variety of game than I did before I hit 30. Between the two, they've taken 7 elk, 3 mule deer, 2 oryx, 1 antelope (one has a tag this year so maybe 2 in another 7 days), and 6 turkey. I have yet to shoot an antelope buck and have only had one buck tag that was OTC archery in NE.

There are designated youth only hunts in NM to where only kiddos apply and compete against each other, and then if they don't draw, there is a fire sale OTC cow elk for late Nov and late Dec. We don't turkey hunt much anymore and have never done spring or fall bear (which is OTC).

If I had put them in for every available youth hunt for every species, a tag or two would be drawn every year. There is just not enough time...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The one problem that I see with giving the youth so many opportunities is that they are going to end up in the real hunting tag pools and come to the stark realities that life isn't fare, and that they are going to have to cross their fingers every time that they put in a application just like the rest of us.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Out of curiosity, what year did he turn 18?


Nov '18. Tags were a mix of Utah and WY.

He drew Utah Antelope as a youth his first year applying... I didn't realize it at the time of applying, but it was a TWO doe antelope hunt. I was shocked when two tags showed up in the mail. He filled both by noon opening day, it was fun.

-DallanC


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

It may be time for hunters to only be able to obtain one permit for each species. At least until everyone has had a chance to draw/buy something, then on X date allow an additional permit to be purchased, if any are available.



MooseMeat said:


> OTC youth archery deer tags for every unit.


Just my take, but I don't think the OTC youth archery tags are a decent option for 90% + of the youth hunters. Archery is much too expensive and too specialized for most kids. These tags are great for archery hunting families, not so much for the masses.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Packout said:


> Just my take, but I don't think the OTC youth archery tags are a decent option for 90% + of the youth hunters. Archery is much too expensive and too specialized for most kids. These tags are great for archery hunting families, not so much for the masses.


It is only as expensive as you want to make it. Sure you can go out and drop $1000 on a bow and a dozen arrows but why?

Do you go out and buy a kid a $2,000 rifle when he starts hunting?

Granted when I first started bow hunting my bow was only around $10 at a yard sale, a nice Bear recurve. Then a dozen arrows and some Bear broad heads and I was off hunting. Flannel shirt, Levi's and all. No fancy camo but back there there wasn't any fancy camo we just wore what we had. You could go the the Army Surplus Store on State Street in Orem and pick up some army surplus camo for a few bucks

Anyone remember the boxes of cedar shaft arrows where you could buy arrows for around a quarter each?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

No question.
My 2 boy's punched more tags before they where 18 than I have IN MY LIFE!

My heck, they killed 20 plus.
It was UNREAL!


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Come on Critter- you're better than that response. Live in the now, not the days of remembrance. A 12 year old kid with a recurve...... 
Look at how few of those permits they sell, that right there tells you how they are not a viable option for most. 

..


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Anyone remember the boxes of cedar shaft arrows where you could buy arrows for around a quarter each?[/QUOTE]

ABSOLUTELY.
My first recurve was a Bear.
Fact, I still shoot a Bear bow!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Critter said:


> Granted when I first started bow hunting my bow was only around $10 at a yard sale, a nice Bear recurve. Then a dozen arrows and some Bear broad heads and I was off hunting. Flannel shirt, Levi's and all. No fancy camo but back there there wasn't any fancy camo we just wore what we had. You could go the the Army Surplus Store on State Street in Orem and pick up some army surplus camo for a few bucks


I was there!
Bobs Army and Navy.
In the 60s, 8th north, on a bicycle!

I bought surplus camo, canteens, all kinds of stuff there!!!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> I was there!
> Bobs Army and Navy.
> In the 60s, 8th north, on a bicycle!
> 
> I bought surplus camo, canteens, all kinds of stuff there!!!


That was a kids dream store for accessories to go hunting with.



Packout said:


> Come on Critter- you're better than that response. Live in the now, not the days of remembrance. A 12 year old kid with a recurve......
> Look at how few of those permits they sell, that right there tells you how they are not a viable option for most.
> 
> ..


Yep, the kids now days want the latest bow that is on the market, they can't go hunting in a flannel shirt and Levi's but need the latest high dollar camo.

The point that I want to make if a kid wants to go hunting and has a little bit of support from his or hers parents they should be able to go.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Allieds was my little slice of Heaven.

If a kid wants to hunt but he/she is ‘too good’ to pick up an old recurve, then we don’t need that person in the mountains anyway.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

shaner said:


> Allieds was my little slice of Heaven.
> 
> If a kid wants to hunt but he/she is 'too good' to pick up an old recurve, then we don't need that person in the mountains anyway.


Allieds "If we don't have it, You don't need it"
Spent a lot of time in there as a teenager myself. I put a Browning Black Knight compound bow on layaway, it was $99 and I mowed lawns all summer to pay for it.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well
I gotta agree with Packout.

Cap it at 30.

It's the only real fix.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Packout said:


> It may be time for hunters to only be able to obtain one permit for each species. At least until everyone has had a chance to draw/buy something, then on X date allow an additional permit to be purchased, if any are available.
> 
> Just my take, but I don't think the OTC youth archery tags are a decent option for 90% + of the youth hunters. Archery is much too expensive and too specialized for most kids. These tags are great for archery hunting families, not so much for the masses.


You can buy a complete, ready to kill, set up at Walmart for $300 that will last a lifetime if you only use for bowhunting. If you can't swing that, then maybe hunting in general isn't really something you can afford. Especially when it comes to permit fees, fuel, boots, supplies, etc...


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Packout said:


> It may be time for hunters to only be able to obtain one permit for each species. At least until everyone has had a chance to draw/buy something, then on X date allow an additional permit to be purchased, if any are available.
> 
> Just my take, but I don't think the OTC youth archery tags are a decent option for 90% + of the youth hunters. Archery is much too expensive and too specialized for most kids. These tags are great for archery hunting families, not so much for the masses.


The top idea is terrible. It's ridiculous that I can buy multiple tags OTC in most the neighboring states as a non res but in Utah we want to limit species like that?

Antlerless is still hard to draw for elk AND deer so I really don't see the purpose in that. You basically eliminate the opportunity hunts (private land, control tags).

Also - I can buy a solid fully setup youth bow package for less money than a setup rifle. Period.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

when i talk kids im talking 14 year old and older that are now big enough and making there own money to hunt i have paid for all my kids for years now and i think if they want to hunt they need to see what all is involved with it, so if you figure my kid turns 14 and puts in for buck deer on a unit that takes 5 points to draw he is now 5 years into giving up his money to buy not only a tag but a gun, bullets, gas, food, knife, game bags ect ect ect. just to be told NO you cant hunt this year again but your uncle gets to hunt elk, cow elk, buck deer, and doe deer, antelope and he is going out of state for pigs. this is what im talking about how can we get younger hunter more opportunity so they can help support the cost and maintenance involved in hunting. NOT YOUTH HUNTERS but young hunters, if we don't prepare today it could all go away tomorrow.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

but when we were young we could buy tags over the counter


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

bossloader said:


> but when we were young we could buy tags over the counter


Your absolutely correct! BUT.....It also seemed there were more animals running around in the woods. I know there were a heck of a lot less hunters in the field.

I've ruffled some feathers of a few forum members because of a few post's and comments about tag numbers, etc.

The fact is that Utah has a commodity that is limited and possibly diminishing every year. The demand for tags is more than the eco system can offer. Some group or government identity better get a plan in place soon before this precious resource is gone.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

My daughter is 11 years old and we bought her a Bear Cruzer Lite on sale for a littler over $200 for Christmas (that's all she wanted and all she got!). That bow is so adjustable it will last her until she wants to upgrade in ten years. We shoot league every week and for being 11 she is doing really well. We are working up her draw weight and I know that when she is 12 she will be ready to bowhunt deer. Range is gonna be 20-30 yards but that's good enough. If a parent wants to spend the time and a little money they can get their kid out bowhunting. It's about time spent with kids and dedication. If it's important to you there are a ton of youth hunting opportunities in this state--a lot more than I had when I was a kid!


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

bossloader said:


> when i talk kids im talking 14 year old and older that are now big enough and making there own money to hunt i have paid for all my kids for years now and i think if they want to hunt they need to see what all is involved with it, so if you figure my kid turns 14 and puts in for buck deer on a unit that takes 5 points to draw he is now 5 years into giving up his money to buy not only a tag but a gun, bullets, gas, food, knife, game bags ect ect ect. just to be told NO you cant hunt this year again but your uncle gets to hunt elk, cow elk, buck deer, and doe deer, antelope and he is going out of state for pigs. this is what im talking about how can we get younger hunter more opportunity so they can help support the cost and maintenance involved in hunting. NOT YOUTH HUNTERS but young hunters, if we don't prepare today it could all go away tomorrow.


Again. Have you seen how many hunters are applying for tags right now? Hunting isn't going anywhere any time soon in Utah.

If your kid takes 5 years to draw a tag, you've failed as a parent. Maybe apply for easier to draw units. Mentor YOUR tag to them. Buy them an OTC archery youth tag. Buy them a spike or any bull tag. Like I said, if they aren't it hunting every weekend from August until the end of January it's YOUR fault. The opportunity is there, and there's plenty of it! How many points do they have in Wyoming for deer, elk and pronghorn? Did you buy them 2 OTC Idaho buck tags this year? What about Arizona? Have they been building points for animals in that state? There's dirt cheap hog hunts in Texas right now. When is your hunt book for that? $300 for 2 pigs. 2 days, 3 nights. Need a link for the outfit? I can get it for you.

If the uncle is hunting all those permits, he's 1) waited the time long enough in line to draw all them that year (that takes years on some of them). 2) has spent some time researching how to get more tags and how to take advantage of opportunities that are out there and 3) looking outside of utah for other opportunities. Don't get mad at people or want to punish them for putting in the time to figure out to maximize their hunting opportunities that utah has! The opportunity is there for EVERYONE. From youth to the senior citizens! How bad do you want it? Well it must not be very bad if you think limiting the amount of tags a person can a year is the best way to get more tags into your pocket.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

Not seeing the point, if we don't do something now point creep go's up and success will go down and hunter satisfaction will drop and money will stop flowing because young hunters will NOT keep spending hundreds of dollars a year in Utah when they can go to other states some of us work for a living and cant take all the time away from work to hunt for 3 months some people can't afford gas to drive every weekend hours out of state and some people want there adult kids to have it as good as i did growing up hunting as we know it IS going away in UTAH it was proved with draw tage selling out and the area i hunt now takes 5 points to draw for muzzy deer when it used to be every other year open your eyes it is changing!!!

I work weekends and it is hard to take young kids out of school to go on hunts every week, you are being unreal in what you say Moosemeat, i did what I could for my kids when they were young now im working with grandkids and it has changed so much in just a few years dont lecture me on stuff being my fault if there not hunting if my grandkids finds an area THEY want to hunt and it takes 5 years to draw how is that my fault? maybe they dont want to hunt with 5000 other hunters, the hunts in Texas are not dirt cheap ream how much they charge for tips gutting storing and shipping been there done that. and it was my brother who in his family got 4 cow elk tags 4 buck deer tags and 2 doe antelope tags and 1 bull elk tag with just 4 people in the house I say great but if four people in your house drew that with just 4 bull elk points today i would call you the king and bow to you. that is what i'm talking about you ask if i have seen the amount of people applying for tags right now? well of course that is my whole point, hunters are increasing animals are NOT that state caps the amount buy having doe hunts and cow hunts they only want 18 bucks per hundred does they only want 65000 elk in the state when i was young we had 300.000 hunters in utah now we have 80.000 is all. think about it!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If things happen as you say then points should go down as fewer put in for tags and higher point holders draw out and get onto the waiting list to try again or move on to another animal. 

The big problem is that there are only so many elk, deer, pronghorn, moose, bison, goats, and sheep in the state for people to go after. Then there are more and more people putting in for those tags to go chase them. 

The DWR just passed one thing on LE deer this last year moving the waiting period from 2 to 5 years. If you are waiting for 5 years to draw a muzzy tag perhaps you need to look at other units. I haven't looked at the odds report but I know that there are muzzy deer hunts that you can hunt every couple of years.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

bossloader said:


> Not seeing the point, if we don't do something now point creep go's up and success will go down and hunter satisfaction will drop and money will stop flowing because young hunters will NOT keep spending hundreds of dollars a year in Utah when they can go to other states some of us work for a living and cant take all the time away from work to hunt for 3 months some people can't afford gas to drive every weekend hours out of state and some people want there adult kids to have it as good as i did growing up hunting as we know it IS going away in UTAH it was proved with draw tage selling out and the area i hunt now takes 5 points to draw for muzzy deer when it used to be every other year open your eyes it is changing!!!
> 
> I work weekends and it is hard to take young kids out of school to go on hunts every week, you are being unreal in what you say Moosemeat, i did what I could for my kids when they were young now im working with grandkids and it has changed so much in just a few years dont lecture me on stuff being my fault if there not hunting if my grandkids finds an area THEY want to hunt and it takes 5 years to draw how is that my fault? maybe they dont want to hunt with 5000 other hunters, the hunts in Texas are not dirt cheap ream how much they charge for tips gutting storing and shipping been there done that. and it was my brother who in his family got 4 cow elk tags 4 buck deer tags and 2 doe antelope tags and 1 bull elk tag with just 4 people in the house I say great but if four people in your house drew that with just 4 bull elk points today i would call you the king and bow to you. that is what i'm talking about you ask if i have seen the amount of people applying for tags right now? well of course that is my whole point, hunters are increasing animals are NOT that state caps the amount buy having doe hunts and cow hunts they only want 18 bucks per hundred does they only want 65000 elk in the state when i was young we had 300.000 hunters in utah now we have 80.000 is all. think about it!


You are all over in your arguments (and punctuation), it's hard to follow...

This year in my family I have a LE elk tag (3 points), 3 general deer tags, 3 OTC spike tags, 4 pronghorn tags, 4 swan tags, 12 turkey tags... I'm not sure what your point is?

You work weekends? How is that my fault? So you want to limit guys ability to have multiple tags every year, when they work week days, just so they can sit home on the weekends while your at work, so you can feel better about yourself? I don't think so. I will lecture you when you cry and complain about the lack of opportunities out there for youth when in reality there is tons of it. Way more now than there ever has been. You're not taking advantage of it and it's everyone else's fault :roll: there isn't enough animals to go around for everyone, there chitloads of people applying for permits. Yes hunter numbers might be "down" from what they once were but the actual demand for those permits is at an all time high. Permits are already tough to get ahold of... and you want there to be more hunters? I don't think you really know who to be mad at! Another thing is, back in the day, there was guys buying permits for their wives, grandmas and little kids, who never even hunted. There may have been 300k deer permits sold, that doesn't mean there was actually that many hunters.

Look if your kids want to hunt a specific area that takes 5 points to draw, that's their choice. But don't jump on here and start bitching about how long it takes for them to draw a tag! You can't get mad at your own choices that no one forced you to make. If you want to hunt every year and the experience is more important to you than the quality, there's tons of units for that. If quality is what you're after, you're gonna have to wait your turn for a tag! But to jump on here and start screaming for limiting opportunities for guys while all in the same breath wanting to recruit more hunters... you might as well be mixing oil and water together.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Critter said:


> The one problem that I see with giving the youth so many opportunities is that they are going to end up in the real hunting tag pools and come to the stark realities that life isn't fare, and that they are going to have to cross their fingers every time that they put in a application just like the rest of us.


What's wrong with that Critter? Get them interested with quality opportunities when they're young. I'm all for it! No problems with them learning that "life isn't fair" later on when they become adults either. We all have to learn, but if they're really interested in hunting after having great experiences early, they'll stay and play later.

And going back to one of MooseMeat's original comments at the beginning of this thread, I completely disagree that we have too many hunters in the Western U.S. This is absolutely not the case...unless you want to advocate for reduced opportunities for hunters in the future! Think about it, we don't live in a vacuum...people move around and take their opinions and preferences with them. So, if we don't recruit more hunters, what do they do when they move around the country? Obviously, they don't hunt!!! How does that help perpetuate hunting??

This might sound harsh, but people who think there are too many hunters are selfish in their reasoning pure and simple. It's not about others...it's about them, and that is NOT a winning strategy moving forward! If anything, the hunting community needs to be more inclusive, and advocating for fewer hunters ANYWHERE is wrong headed in the extreme. There, off my soap box...


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Going back to the original OP proposal, I am completely against limiting tags to one animal per year with points for all others (if a hunter wants to apply for them). Limiting opportunity is not the way to get more people involved. If you or your kids aren't hunting every year, then that is a failure on YOU! There are plenty of opportunities out there. Big game is not the end all...and even if it were, you can still hunt deer and elk every year if you plan it right. What about waterfowl, turkeys, small/upland game. There TONS of opportunities out there - use them...or take up painting.

And another related point, while it is nice to reminisce about the past, we live in the present, and as such, we must learn how to take advantage of that. Yes, that means learning about the regs with all their quirks and peculiarities. It may even take years of planning to make sure the tags you want now are there in the future. 
Hunting is much more complicated than 30 years ago, but we have a finite resource with more and more pressure put on it, so IMO, that requires more extensive planning and management in order to be successfull. It's easy to manage 100K animals when there are 1000 hunters. Quite a different story when those same 100K animals face competition from 25K hunters...and more predators, and more development, and less winter range, etc. You get my point. Our world today is very different from 30, 40, or 50 years ago. It may take additional time to learn ins and outside of regs and draw systems today - as opposed to the "just go hunting" of yesteryear - but again, if it's too much, there is always painting...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

MWScott72 said:


> What's wrong with that Critter? Get them interested with quality opportunities when they're young. I'm all for it! No problems with them learning that "life isn't fair" later on when they become adults either. We all have to learn, but if they're really interested in hunting after having great experiences early, they'll stay and play later.
> 
> .


What I am seeing it isn't keeping them hunting to begin with.

I have a niece that has two boys, they both started hunting with the youth opportunities when they were eligible. They had deer and elk tags every year. Now that they are adults in their early 20's neither one of them hunts just because of the problems drawing tags and they don't want to hunt spike elk and don't want to put forth the effort to hunt the any bull units. You can't even talk them into putting in for sage grouse tags that you can usually draw about every other year.

There are those families that do manage to get their kids really interested in hunting and fishing but it is going by the wayside quite quickly.

I have seen it play out on other families as well. All is fine as long as they have a tag in their hand but as soon as they have to face reality they decided that they want to do something else.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Critter said:


> MWScott72 said:
> 
> 
> > What's wrong with that Critter? Get them interested with quality opportunities when they're young. I'm all for it! No problems with them learning that "life isn't fair" later on when they become adults either. We all have to learn, but if they're really interested in hunting after having great experiences early, they'll stay and play later.
> ...


I see your point Critter, and today is a different day when there are so many other things to distract kids from hunting. What is the alternative though? We can take away youth opportunities and let them learn the "life isn't fair" lesson right out of the gate, but I think we'd have even less retention when they become adults. Simple fact is many kids just don't like hunting because they have other options that we didn't when we were younger. All we can do is try to get them interested, and I think the best way to do that is give them some quality opportunities early on.

As an example, do you take a kid duck hunting for his first time in mid-December when it is 10 degrees and snowing or is it better to take them when it's warmer in the early season when there are more ducks around to be had in more favorable conditions? Now, if I had a little pothole of open water drawing in all the available birds in Dec, I might advocate for that, but things being what they are, that typically might not be a possibility! And, with the cold and adverse conditions, that youth hunter might be frozen solid and miserable before shooting light even starts.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't know if there is anyway that you can get a kid interested in hunting and keep him there. 

For me my dad hunted and fished until I was 5, then due to work he never went hunting again. We were out of the state mostly during the summer months and he had to work so he never really fished again. He did however checked into fishing for me as I was growing up while he was at work and I got to fish in some amazing places, but again because of work he couldn't get out hunting. 

Fast forward to when I was in Jr High. I lived with a sister who's husband lived to hunt, but he would go out after work or for a quick one on the opening weekend of the deer hunt, at that time while there was a elk hunt it wasn't much with only a few elk units. 

But for me I wanted to go. It didn't matter if it was a -40 out duck hunting or 110 out hunting rabbits. If someone mentioned that I could go hunting I was like a kid the night before Christmas, I couldn't sleep. Then when I turned 16 and could actually get a deer tag I couldn't wait. You just don't see that kind of outdoor type drive in kids anymore, even ones that come from a hunting family. Then when they do get out they are more interested in that game on their cell phone than they are sitting and waiting for the animals to show up.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

All true Critter. I was exactly the same growing up. If there was an opportunity to go hunting, I was all over it - regardless of weather or otherwise. I was lucky and have a dad that would take us kids over going with his friends who didn't want us tagging along. I'll always be thankful for that too.

The opening day before duck season was like Christmas to me, and I lived for it, and the rest of the season behind it. I would get so excited that i couldn't hardly sleep the night before! Those were the days, and it didn't matter if we shot 2 limits or 2 birds - I was right there for the next trip with visions of limits in hand. You're right in that you don't see that as much now, but we live in a totally different time. I was a high schooler back in the late 80s. Cell phones weren't around for another 10 years after I graduated.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> You just don't see that kind of outdoor type drive in kids anymore, even ones that come from a hunting family. Then when they do get out they are more interested in that game on their cell phone than they are sitting and waiting for the animals to show up.


That's not true. I personally know several kids in the 10-17 range that are absolutely FIRED UP about hunting. It's all they think and talk about. Heck my two year old lights up when he hears the words "hunting, turkeys, elk, deer..." every time we get in the truck he says "hunting? Turkey? Go?". But he's been on more successful hunts in his 2 years than most grown men have in their entire life. I couldn't go enough as a kid. I was obsessed with it. I even got in trouble multiple times in grade school where we would be given some kinda art assignment and mine would always include some kinda hunting scene with a dead animal and guns in it. My mom loved getting those phone calls from concerned teachers about my art projects. I had video games, skateboards, dirtbikes, all kinds of distractions most kids have at those ages. I never really got into sports, but I definitely had the opportunity to do them. I did get heavy into competitive archery tournaments and excelled at it. In the end, the biggest reason I quit archery comps and didn't try to make a career out of it, was it interfered with my hunting. Lots of big archery tourneys held on the weekends in the fall. I'd rather shoot animals than foam or paper, so I quit. The biggest factor in all of this, I was fortunate to have a dad who took the time to take me hunting every weekend he could. He sacrificed a lot of his prime hunting ages in his life, to take me on hunts that I could do and enjoy. Sure we had some limited success, but for the most part I held him back and I'm forever grateful that he understood that kid hunts were more important than his type of hunts. I feel like I've done what I can to repay the favor now that I'm taking him, finding him the places to go and all he basically has to do is sit there and be patient. But in the end, I'm forever in debt to the sacrifices he made for me.

It's not hard to get kids hooked on it. What's hard is making the effort to take them every time you go. If the kid only goes once a year, yeah he's gonna find other things to occupy his time with, because he can't go whenever he wants like an adult can. Again, it falls on the parent to look for your kid friendly hunts and take them on those. So what if a kid plays games on their phone while they sit and wait for animals to show up. I'm 30 and I play angry birds and watch movies all the time while I'm sitting in a treestand. 14 hour days in a stand is enough to drive anyone insane. Some days you wait 12-14 hours for something that only lasts 30 seconds. Gotta do something to keep them occupied. You can only stare at squirrels and chipmunks for so long. I promise you'd have way more youth absolutely addicted, if they had the ability to go more than once a year. That's the biggest limiting factor in my opinion


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

That’s some serious gospel moosemeat! I agree 100%


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

3arabians said:


> That's some serious gospel moosemeat! I agree 100%


MM TRUTH!!

Time, attitude, ethics, example required if you hope to pay if forward. It's sad adults miss the opportunity to mentor youth to love the outdoors and environment it provides for personal experiences; physical, mental, spiritual while hunting and fishing.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

MM i have not attacked you why are you so pissed off? i just think that if we want to keep hunting then we need to KEEP young people interested in hunting and if you cant DEER HUNT or ELK HUNT for years WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THEY WILL ALL STAY INTERESTED? you are so worried about your own hunting and my punctuation that you refuse to even admit something needs to be done! you might have all the money in the world to buy guns and rvs and go hunting every weekend for months at a time, i don't and im also not in debt to my eyes I own my home and in 3 years will be completely debt free i hope you can say that when you 53 years old. now be civil and think about the future what would YOU suggest we do to help ensure that the 300 thousand hunters that want to hunt DEER will get that opportunity in 10 years?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Once again. KIDS CAN HUNT DEER AND ELK EVERY YEAR IN UTAH RIGHT NOW. OTC. Pick up a bow and teach them to shoot. Kids love archery and shooting arrows. Oh that’s not possible? Beggars can’t be choosers.

I work a full time job, I own a home, and pay my bills and still go hunting every weekend, for 6 months in the fall/winter and 2-3 weeks during the rest of the year. I make an average income. Priorities. If it’s worth it to you. You’ll make it happen. 

I started planning for my children’s hunting opportunities before I even met their mother. I started creating opportunities so when they are of legal hunting age, my kid will have a LE elk tag the first year he can apply (probably). Will it be a San Juan tag? No. But it will be a bull tag and we will have a great time together hunting as a family. I will also mentor as many tags to them as I can. I building points for him right now for a few species that I have no interest in hunting again. Every parent has this same opportunity to do these things. Are they? No. They are doing it for themselves. Now that’s pretty selfish. My wife and 2 year old are both hooked on hunting. How did I do that? I take them every chance I possibly get. That will work on just about every kid out there. Take them as much as possible and make it a fun, enjoyable experience, and they will never get enough. And no, you don’t need to kill something every time. But it doesn’t hurt to be successful now and then. Show them stuff, teach them about things the otherwise wouldn’t learn. There’s more to the hunt than killing. however YOU need to do your part to ensure you aren’t just pissing in the wind and hunting a barren wasteland. Go do this thing called scouting. Kids also love this. I load my wife and little kid on my dirtbike and we go check trail cams every now and then. He plays with sticks and throws rocks. He helps me pour out the salt. He sits next to me on the log and looks at the photos on my phone. The kid lives for dirtbikes and hunting. He wasn’t preprogrammed this way. I taught him to love it. It can happen with all kids. PARENTS need to put in the effort.

How do I ensure 300k people get to hunt deer in 10 years. Very simple. Unless you’re “selfish”. Here’s my answer: do you need to have a tag with your name on it in your pocket, for you to go deer hunting or enjoy deer hunting? I certainly don’t. I’ve killed many great general season bucks myself, but do you know which hunts I find myself enjoying more? the ones where my wife is hunting for her first deer. My dad at 72 years old, shooting some pissy 3x3, on the same exact hillside that he took me hunting for my very first time, 25 years to the very same day, where we killed an identical buck. My brother shooting a dinky spike for his first buck. My brother and dad doubling up on 2 bucks within seconds of each other, while road hunting on a cold morning after an early snow storm. My wife killing a big deer while she’s pregnant, with my dad there to see it all. Those hunts mean more to me than any of the big deer I’ve shot myself. If you need a deer tag in your own pocket to go or even enjoy deer hunting, then I think you need to re-evaluate who and what you determine to be “selfish”. It’s not hard to find someone with a deer tag. And I don’t know anyone who will turn down free help on their hunt, especially when it comes to packing one out. 

So to sum up all your questions, the answers boil down to this. It’s the responsibility of the parents/family/friends to take advantage of the numerous opportunities that are out there for youth in the hunting world. If it’s important enough for you that your kid goes hunting, you’ll find a way to do that. It’s really pretty inexpensive to get kids our hunting. Hell most guys on here would be willing to donate hunting stuff if you can’t seem to find funds for pants, boots, broadheads, arrows, Bullets, etc... I’m one of them. You just have to ask! The other answer I have is, you need to be ok with hunting not for yourself. Go help others with their tags! If you want to go, it isn’t hard to find someone with a permit. But with that said, there is still plenty of opportunities for people to hunt themselves, even if they don’t draw anything. Some years you don’t draw chit, but you can still go. Usually I draw between 5-10 tags a year, then buy OTC tags after that. This year I drew 2. A LE elk and a swan. But guess what? My fall is still as busy as a normal year. I’m just not the trigger puller. 

Sounds like you just want to complain and make it everyone else’s fault you can’t go hunting and because of that, you want to take away additional opportunities to try and spread them around for everyone :roll: that isn’t the answer. That’s why I’m pissed. And I promise I’m not alone on that. No one wants more opportunities limited than they already are.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Bossloader-
I agree with MM. There ARE opportunities to get kids out hunting EVERY YEAR. You just need to do the homework. It does take some planning and a little luck, but if you do it right, there will be tags for your family EVERY YEAR. They may not be the highly coveted LE tags, but that's not the grind here - it's just about hunting, right.

I will tell you personally that I am making the commitment to hunt waterfowl more this fall. Why? It's what I cut my teeth on, sure, but I can also see that my 11 year old just isn't as enamored with big game yet...and I get it. Neither was I at his age. The days are too long, and the opportunities too far between for his liking. Sure, it's great when an animal is taken down, but he needs more opportunity and trigger time, and waterfowl is just that ticket.

You gotta do what it takes to keep your kids hunting. Sometimes that means doing things outside your comfort zone. It takes a certain amount of sacrifice like MM explained with his dad taking him. I had the same kind of dad who sacrificed alot, so that I could go. I hope I'm that same kind of dad to my kids and others. At least I try to be.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Ya know one of my greatest hunting accomplishments was the summer of 92' when I was 12 years old with my brand new Benjamin pellet gun. Down on grampa's farm that summer I killed 88 sparrows and starlings, plus three trophy magpies! I didn't have to buy any tags, build any points, nor have any help from any stinkin adults! It was glorious!;-)


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Airborne said:


> Ya know one of my greatest hunting accomplishments was the summer of 92' when I was 12 years old with my brand new Benjamin pellet gun. Down on grampa's farm that summer I killed 88 sparrows and starlings, plus three trophy magpies! I didn't have to buy any tags, build any points, nor have any help from any stinkin adults! It was glorious!;-)


And you didn't even shoot your eye out? :grin:


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Airborne said:


> Ya know one of my greatest hunting accomplishments was the summer of 92' when I was 12 years old with my brand new Benjamin pellet gun. Down on grampa's farm that summer I killed 88 sparrows and starlings, plus three trophy magpies! I didn't have to buy any tags, build any points, nor have any help from any stinkin adults! It was glorious![IMGclass=inlineimg]https://utahwildlife.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif[/IMG]


I remember those days of yore...except my trophies were meadowlarks and blue jays!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> I remember those days of yore...except my trophies were meadowlarks and blue jays!


Kids these days can't have any fun. We used to walk the neighborhood with our BB guns all the time.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> Kids these days can't have any fun. We used to walk the neighborhood with our BB guns all the time.


I wasn't allowed a BB gun, however I did have a 22 pump rifle.

We would walk up to Rock Canyon or down to Slate Canyon in Provo to find something to shoot at during the summer's. Then when I got my drivers license you would find us down at the dump spotlighting rats. We were down at the Spanish Fork dump one night when a county sheriff pulled in and began to question us. That was before he joined into the fun of popping rats.

Try any of that now and you and your parents would be put away

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

A kid from my neighborhood recently about went to jail for riding his dirtbike down the road, with a .22 on his back, headed for the hills behind the homes. Kids have done this stuff for years. Apparently we have a new cop who just transferred here from Cali and he wasn’t gonna let that slide. :roll: pretty much everyone told him what to go do with himself, but that’s where it starts. One starts being a little d!ck when kids are out having fun and before long, the whole crew is cracking down on kids playing outside and doing kid stuff. Too bad.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

My dad wouldn't let me have a BB gun as a kid. 
Wouldn't let me have a dirt bike as a pre-teen. 
Wouldn't let me have an Impala SS in high school. 
Wouldn't let me have a 442 as I got out of high school. Wouldn't even talk to me about a Road Runner. 
So, I missed out on a lot of stuff you guys got to do. 

He was a very smart man......I probably would not have made it out. :mrgreen:


He did buy me my own 22 when I was a senior. Still have it. 
Has given me a whole bunch of guns over the years. 

And, I bought the Road Runner a little later in life when I started making good money. Of course after getting set up with a house, kids, etc. 
Still have the Road Runner 33 years later.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I asked for a bb gun once and my dad flatly refused. Too dangerous he said. He then went and bought me a double barrel .410 shotgun instead.

His line of thinking: people dont think bb guns are dangerous and people use them carelessly. The shotgun you KNOW is dangerous, and you treat it much more carefully. Therefore, its safer.

I love how that guy thinks.


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That is where parents need to teach their kids respect for firearms. Be it a BB gun or a high power rifle. That is also where most parents get into problems with giving their kids a BB gun for Christmas and setting up a target in their basements and allowing their kids the freedom of shooting it when they are not around. 

My first rifle was a .30-06 that was given to me when I was 5 by a alcoholic uncle, I still have that rifle. But even when I first bought my own BB gun I took it out into the desert to shoot it. When it came into the house there were no BB's left in it and like the other firearms it was stored properly with them.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> MWScott72 said:
> 
> 
> > I remember those days of yore...except my trophies were meadowlarks and blue jays!
> ...


Yup, those starlings perched on the power line made for a tough target from the sidewalk or pavement back in the day.

I hate those **** birds to this day.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

MooseMeat said:


> Apparently we have a new cop who just transferred here from Cali...


Shhh...don't tell Lone_Hunter that someone moved here from California and did _not_ take an IT job in Silicon Slopes.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

brisket said:


> Shhh...don't tell Lone_Hunter that someone moved here from California and did _not_ take an IT job in Silicon Slopes.


Wait, didn't he move here from California for an IT job?


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

3arabians said:


> Yup, those starlings perched on the power line made for a tough target from the sidewalk or pavement back in the day.
> 
> I hate those **** birds to this day.


 I HATE starlings. Nasty, flying rats. Starlings and house sparrows are the only song birds I don't feel guilty about shooting when I was younger. They do absolutely nothing good for our native species.

I remember the days...walk down our neighborhood street with the old one-pump Daisy 860 over the shoulder. No one ever batted an eye, and that was in the early 80s. My grandparents had a 25-30 acre patch of woods across the street from their house, and I could get lost in there for hours. Of course, rabbits or squirrels were the "real" trophies back then. The dang fox squirrels were tough - if you didn't hit them in the head at close range, they just absorbed shot after shot while we danced around the tree I'd treed them in. Good times...


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