# how important is pedrigree?



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

i hope i dont make any enemies by bringing this up, but i just wondered what ya'll think about how important the lines of your dogs are. im not picking on anyone in particular, but in my own opinion it seems a little much to have to show the pedigree back to adam and eve's dog. im sure it was a chessie, but thats beside the point. i bring up this question because i am a firm believer in putting work into your dog to make it good, not looking up how good his great grandpa was, or how many field trials their parents have won. the best dog i have ever seen and hunted with was my uncle's big chesapeake, but he was unpapered because the breeder thought the dog was maybe 1/8 lab. the second best, in my own biased opinion, was a half chocolate, half chesapeake female that i owned for 12 years. i paid $100 for her and never had any regrets. I know a lot of guys who pay top dollar to top breeders for dogs with fancy long names and impressive backgrounds. just wanted to hear what you proud owners have to say


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

deadicated1 said:


> im sure it was a chessie


 :lol: :lol: I'm sure it was, it must have been perfect though so youre probably right.


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## Poo Pie (Nov 23, 2007)

I've only had two duck dogs in my life. Both yellow labs, don't know what their pappy's had under their belts, but they were all I could ask for in the water. I have trained and help select quite a few S.A.R dogs and it is all about DRIVE! We'd take a pound pup over a $6,000 shepard or malanois if it's drives were strong (easy to train if they'll do anything for their toys) Just my take.  Oh- wouldn't take anything under 18 mos. too much of a crap shoot.


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

the best bird dog I have known was my GSP I picked up at the pound.
since then I have paid $200 to $400 for all my bird dogs. None were as good.


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## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

thats seems to happen a lot, where a guy gets a randm dog dirt cheap, or a half breed turns out to be his best dog. any thoughts from the other side?


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Pedigree is VERY important to me. I don't think it is a guarantee, but it is a great start to know what you are getting into. I am not saying a mutt can't be a great dog, but I feel assured of my possiblities when I can read a pedigree.

Let me put it this way. IMO If I take 10 mutts and 10 championed pure breds, I might get one very nice dog out of the mutts, on the other hand I might get one not so good dog out of the pure breds. Breeding is everything, for example, I might be able to train a lab to point, but I am guaranteed a pointer if the pedigree is full of great pointers. Clear as mud? :mrgreen:


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## itchytriggerfinger (Sep 12, 2007)

That reminds me of a some inspired words i heard once.

_Tommy:_ Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting. 
_Ted Nelson, Customer: _Go on, I'm listening. 
_Tommy:_ Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside. 
_Ted Nelson, Customer:_ Yeah, makes a man feel good. 
_Tommy: _'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted? 
_Ted Nelson, Customer:_ [impatiently] What's your point? 
_Tommy:_ The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times. 
_Ted Nelson, Customer:_ But why do they put a guarantee on the box? 
_Tommy:_ Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of ****. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.

not that i feel that way about a pedigree. i think a pedigree shows history of the dog you are getting 
but you'll get out of him/her what you put in. the pedigree just shows that there is a likelyhood that the dog *could* be good.


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## one hunting fool (Sep 17, 2007)

Here are my thoughts on the subject as a breeder and a buyer of dogs. I have has some half breed dogs that have out performed any registered dog you could find as far as hunting. Right now my buddy is working a GSP and a Wirehair mix that has a nose that I swear could smell birds on the moon. But the brains are not with this dog. And that is what good breeding ensures that you get the same thing every time. My dogs have to be smart enough to take commands and retain them for a lifetime. I had not worked Jessie for 2 years on a whistle because I just don’t use them hunting, I took her out the other day released her on a blind retrieve and blew the whistle she stopped dead sat down facing me for more direction. That’s what a good pedigree insures, that all the traits that the mother and father have are present in the mother and father before them and so on and so on. More than likely are going to be present in every pup these two have. You never know what you will get when breeding dogs without a great pedigree. Hip dysplasia or even worse CNM where you have to put puppies down at 8 weeks because they can’t walk. There is nothing worse unless it’s having to put your hunting buddy down because of chronic arthritis and hip dysplasia. Just my thoughts


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## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

that is a good point, i had to put my half breed mutt down a year and a half ago cuz sho had a real bad hip. im not sure if it was in her family, or just an injury that got worse over time. Maybe both. i would like to know that none of the parents had bad hips or backs, or any other problems


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## Tatyana (Sep 14, 2007)

I believe pedigree/breeding/genes are very important. There aren't that many rocket scientists around whose parents were high school drop outs.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't like to gamble and I don't believe that every dog can be made into a great hunting dog. I want a solid, proven pedigree. When I get a dog, I'm in it for life (mine or the dog's). I would rather not be stuck for 10-15 years with a dog that can't hunt. I agree that many mutts make fantastic hunters and companions and many purebreds don't turn out as desired, but I want the odds on my side in this decision.


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## Poo Pie (Nov 23, 2007)

BirdDogger said:


> I don't like to gamble and I don't believe that every dog can be made into a great hunting dog. I want a solid, proven pedigree. When I get a dog, I'm in it for life (mine or the dog's). I would rather not be stuck for 10-15 years with a dog that can't hunt. I agree that many mutts make fantastic hunters and companions and many purebreds don't turn out as desired, *but I want the odds on my side in this decision*.


That's why I would say testing drives in a slightly more mature dog(18+mos.) is more important than seeing charts, jmo.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> That's why I would say testing drives in a slightly more mature dog(18+mos.) is more important than seeing charts, jmo.


Good point. There's nothing wrong with a started/finished dog. I just love having a puppy around so much that I'd hate to miss that stage *OOO* //dog// .


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## Poo Pie (Nov 23, 2007)

I love baby dogs too. Doesn't even matter if they are started or finished on anything I'd just like to see their internal drives. I don't like training dogs with treats, much easier and more consistent if the dog has a high prey drive and will do pretty much anything just to get at their toy. I'm speaking along the lines of S.A.R. canines, havn't had to teach a duck dog a dang thing. I'll admit I'm a sucker for puppy breath as well!


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## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

> There aren't that many rocket scientists around whose parents were high school drop outs.


 good point, but there are some good hunters i know of who are high school dropouts :lol:


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## ZEKESMAN (Sep 14, 2007)

I am sure all of you guys with "the best hunting dogs ever" would be welcome to bring them out to any respective picnic hunt test and put them up against some papered dogs. Just to show us guys who bought pups with numerous FC,AFC,MH,SH parents ,grand parents,great grand parents,great great grand parents how much better your pound or back yard breed dogs are.You cant be real. Also when your dogs are having health problems at 8 9 years of age our dogs with 6 generations of health clearances will still be out performing your new half breed wonder dog.To put it another way would you rather own a Dawoo or a Damler?


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## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

i do agree with the 6 generations of healthy lines, thing, but whats all this about a picnic test? do you mean some course where your dog can jump through some hoops, or hold a point on a set bird? the "half breed" you talk down to (mine, in this case) would out hunt any dog i would put her up against. she didnt have the best nose, but she had the determination to please, and to find nearly any bird. she followed hand signals just fine, but usually i didnt need them cuz she had the smarts to remember and mark birds without me having to bust out the special whistle all you hard core guys use. she dove for crippled ducks, and never gave up if she knew there was a retrieve to make. she hunted hard 4-5days a week every hunting season i owned her, and never slowed, until she hurt her hip jumping down a rock ledge to get to a duck. she hunted two more years after that out of sheer will and love for the sport, limping, but not letting that deter her motives. she lasted 12 years, not 8-9, and guaranteed hunted more than most dogs. i got lucky with her, but i wouldn't have traded her paper-less record for any dog or any akc afc mh sh kfc pcp lsd thc 9er ...backgrounds


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## ZEKESMAN (Sep 14, 2007)

The "hunt test I talk about is just that a test of hunting skills.At the lowest level the dog must mark and retrieve to hand 4 birds two land marks and two water marks.All around 100 yards.At the top level in hunt tests the dog must run two tripple marks,three birds down at once,then must be handled to a blind retrieve that he didn't see go down.This is where a whistle really comes in handy!At the top of the field trial all age open the marks are out to four hundred yards and maybe through two or more diferent channels of water.And out or 100 or so dogs only the top four will recieve points toward their title.Every spring local clubs hold picnic or practice tests and everyone and their dogs are welcome that is all I am saying come on out and see how you stack up against proven stock.I am not putting your dogs down or saying mine is better.I am struggling to get a JR. title on my dog.There will be an A.K.C licenced test at Lee Kay on the week end of April 26,27 and anyone can watch.


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## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

i think that would be interesting to watch. however, my dog i talked about was put down a year ago january, and right now, she would probably do better than the one i have now.  ill have to check it out, because i just feel like there is a difference in doing field trials, and actual hunting. sneaking rivers and bays, sitting in the duck blind all day, chasing cripples, finding birds beleived to be lost, and even knowing when its picture time, and posing for the pics after the hunt mean a lot more to me than that my dog can retrieve a dummy 400 yards away


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## Ironman (Sep 7, 2007)

Real birds are used, not dummies.
Trials/Tests are used to not only ascertain the instinct and drive of the dog, but also its trainability; this so that the instinct and drive can be controlled by the handler in any situation. All of it translates directly to the marsh or upland, and a trial/test dog will be successful in your typical hunting environment....the opposite is not true! Without adequate training and control, a "hunting only" dog will have a difficult go at a test/trial (this is that "difference" you must be referring to). Pedigrees with proven lines are an indication that the dog carries the complete package, instinct, drive, and trainability...good looks and style don't hurt either. Indeed a "hunting only" dog without proven lines in its pedigree can succeed, but as has been mentioned, it’s a crap shoot.
I always find it fascinating that people will extol the hunting virtues of their dogs, but when invited to prove it in a controlled test setting (meaning all the dogs have equal chances and can be judged fairly) they usually find all the reasons why not to. _(O)_


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## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

well said. i see why a field trial would be beneficial in finding the right lines and trainability and all that other stuff. i still hold my opinion that hunting and trials are different. its like if your a long drive champion and can hit the ball over 400 yards, doesn't mean you can go play and compete at the masters where you have to know and follow the rules, qualify, count strokes, play the wind, judge the greens, etc. get my point? my dog could have out driven yours on every hole, but yours would score way better overall. maybe that analogy doesn't work, but golf is on the mind cuz my lakes are still frozen, and duck season is still months away :x


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## Tatyana (Sep 14, 2007)

I would compare hunting to college and field trials to doctorate programs. A Ph.D. can do college stuff just like a field trial champion can do hunting, but not necessarily the other way around. Most field trial wash outs go on to become great hunting companions. A dog that can mark at 400 yards and run 200 yard blinds can certainly do that at 50 yards. Maybe it would take a few days for a field trial dog to adjust to the new circumstances, but they are so intelligent that it's usually not a problem.

Also, fancy pedigrees not only indicate the dog's ability to perform, but give you an insight into the dog's ability to produce. Take Maxx (Ebonstar Lean Mac) for example. Not only was he a great competitor, he was a great producer. Not only that, he passed along his ability to produce onto his children who passed that ability to produce onto their children. So, getting a dog with a pedigree full of great competitors and producers gives you a better chance of that dog being a great competitor and/or producer.

Since genetics is not an exact science and Mother Nature is unpredictable, going with proven pedigrees give you better chances of success. It's all about the odds.


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## one hunting fool (Sep 17, 2007)

If there was a question of breeding and papers and whether or not a dog can perform with FC, CFC or any other markings in the pedigree you are not guaranteed to have a great hunting dog but the odds are in your favor. Look at my dog’s pedigree under Mothers day puppies. You will see she is a who's who of breeding and field trial champions. And the Health is the first thing that Field Trialers look for. Why even spend all the hours a day not to mention a lifetime with a dog if you can not guarantee he/she will be around long enough to enjoy her training. My girl is 5 and would rather retrieve than anything in the whole world. She was never trained to hunt but was a field trial dog from the start. I got her at 2 and started on the hunting stuff right away it was amazing to see her natural instinct take over and she started hunting. her pup now 2 should have been a field trial dog she has the speed and endurance to go all the way but I am a hunter so I taught her just the things that where important to me. But under someone else she would be a million dollar dog. The highest threshold of pain I have ever seen in a dog. These are traits that are present in every dog in her lineage and where passed down to her and all her siblings. Was I looking for turbo the wonder dog? No, but I knew what to expect when I breed her mom to her dad because they both had the same drive and abilities with no health problems and all the family tree lived long lives with out health problems. So I can confidently tell people when buying a pup you are getting a hunting or trial dog that can do everything you expect of them, with a health guarantee. So to me at least a pedigree is the first thing I look for.


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## seniorsetterguy (Sep 22, 2007)

Tatyana said:


> I believe pedigree/breeding/genes are very important. There aren't that many rocket scientists around whose parents were high school drop outs.


There's a lot more than breeding that causes this result! I'm trying not to rush to judgment, because I don't know you, nor have I had to opportunity to chat with you about this topic, but this statement potentially belies some sinister misconceptions/misunderstandings.


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## Tatyana (Sep 14, 2007)

I believe there is plenty of proof that genes are responsible not only for the way the offspring look, but also for their health, behavior and intelligence. Environment and random mutation of course play their role. This is just same old nature vs. nurture argument. I don't see anything sinister in it.

Going back to the importance of the pedigree, I want the "nature" part on my side from the start by getting a dog from proven stock. I'll take care of the "nurture" or environment by providing my dog the best opportunities to develop to her full potential. And I'm praying that random mutation or Mother Nature did not play a trick on me. At least I have two out of three covered, IMO. Again, it goes back to what kind of odds are you comfortable with.


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## seniorsetterguy (Sep 22, 2007)

Bingo. No further speculation required!

I like your argument for dogs...I believe it. But IMHO, people and dogs are different. I prefer to discuss rocket scientists' pedigrees and field trial champions' pedigrees separately. 

If we don't, then we are in danger of lending strength to the animal rights communities' argument that "breedism" is comparable to "elitism and racism." Not to mention the strength it lends to the argument that "my genes made me do it," with "it" being your choice of anti-social behavior, from pedophilia to kleptomania.

So, as you said, back to the discussion of the importance of pedigrees -- a great topic for this forum.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Tatyana said:


> I
> Going back to the importance of the pedigree, I want the "nature" part on my side from the start by getting a dog from proven stock. I'll take care of the "nurture" or environment by providing my dog the best opportunities to develop to her full potential. And I'm praying that random mutation or Mother Nature did not play a trick on me. At least I have two out of three covered, IMO. Again, it goes back to what kind of odds are you comfortable with.


 And that's the truth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## seniorsetterguy (Sep 22, 2007)

Packfish said:


> Tatyana said:
> 
> 
> > I
> ...


+1 -- I agree 100%!


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## itchytriggerfinger (Sep 12, 2007)

My parents have had 3 labs (all named bob) all from different breeders. the first they paid $50(not papered) and after 3 years we got rid of him because he bit someone. second dog $400(papered) he died after 4 years of "unknown causes" one of the better natured dogs i've seen he also had hip problems. the third $350(papered) had parvo after 2 weeks of having him so payment was stopped and we had a $350ish vet bill. he is now 5 not a very well natured dog. he growled at my 5 *month *old son when placed next to him. growls at my 16 year old brothers on random occasions and he has some problem with his feet he is constantly chewing on them vet doesn't know what it is?

I have 2 retriever/wirehair/catahula mixes both are from the same litter. one is very very well natured. he likes it when i discipline him (weirdo dog) the other one. was the runt and has a tumor, one of his back legs doesn't have much muscle in it and he thinks he is the alfa dog between all 3 of us (me inlcuded) he stands and asks for more when i discipline him. like he's waiting for just the right time to bite back.

my point in all of this is exactly what i said earlier. pedigree is a history report that produces *possibly * a good dog.


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## Ironman (Sep 7, 2007)

There are pedigrees...and then there are PEDIGREES.
All purebred dogs carry a pedigree, which is no guarantee of quality other than purity in the breed. Quality is obtained by searching for proven pedigrees. When it comes to purebred dogs, "papers" mean very little unless they are accompanied with an alphabet of titles and clearances. Indeed, there are Mutts that can out hunt "papered" dogs. But few if any Mutts will out hunt a "Tilted PEDIGREE" dog. :wink:


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## itchytriggerfinger (Sep 12, 2007)

did your pinky hit the caps lock while you were typing ironman :wink: pedigree=PEDIGREE=PeDiGrEe 
i know what you meant i'd like to think that my parents looked into it more than i can recollect. i'm still a believer that its about 75% owner 25% dog as far as what you get out of them. 
My one dog thats more docile is/could be a really good hunting dog. i've taken him duck hunting only once and not worked with him much and instinct took over and he did alright without training. right now i'd say it is 15% me and 25% dog with him as far as training goes. Thats my bad not his. he'd be awesome if i "trained" him right. jmo


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