# How did the WB meeting go, I missed It



## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

Anybody listen or at attendance at the meeting yesterday? Just wondering how the meeting went and what the OIL, bucks and bulls stuff came out? Also any news about the deer survey?

Thanks much!


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

This is the dwr website......

Posted Tuesday, 02 December 2014 15:39
New opportunities for hunters

Wildlife Board approves changes for 2015 hunts

New hunts for mule deer — and longer hunting seasons for elk and mountain goats — await hunters in Utah next fall.


Utah's deer hunters will have some new opportunities in 2015.
Photo by Brent Stettler.

Justin Shannon, big game coordinator for the Division of Wildlife Resources, says giving hunters more chances to hunt was one of the major things DWR biologists wanted to do for 2015. "The changes the board approved will have little effect on deer, elk or mountain goat populations in Utah," he says. "But they will provide some great opportunities for our sportsman."

All of the changes the Utah Wildlife Board approved at its Dec. 1 meeting will be available in the 2015 Utah Big Game Application Guidebook. The free guidebook should be available at wildlife.utah.gov/guidebooks by Dec. 15.

Starting Jan. 29, you can apply for a 2015 big game hunting permit online.

Late-season limited-entry deer hunt

After the general rifle buck deer hunt is over, a few lucky muzzleloader hunters will have a chance to hunt on one of six general-season deer units.

The six units — Chalk Creek/East Canyon/Morgan-South Rich (Unit 4/5/6) and Kamas (Unit 7) in northern Utah; Nine Mile (Unit 11) in east-central Utah; and Southwest Desert (Unit 20), Zion (Unit 29) and Pine Valley (Unit 30) in southwestern Utah — are managed for 18 to 20 bucks per 100 does.

Each unit has more bucks than the objective calls for, so there are plenty of bucks to hunt.

"This change will give a small number of limited-entry muzzleloader hunters a great late-season opportunity to hunt deer," Shannon says. "And it won't affect the number of bucks on the units much at all."

The hunt will run the same days the general muzzleloader elk hunt is held: Oct. 28 to Nov. 5.

Since the hunt is a limited-entry hunt, you'll lose your limited-entry bonus points if you draw a permit for the hunt. Also, a muzzleloader is the only firearm you can use. Rifles will not be allowed.

Limited chance to hunt all three deer seasons

Another change will allow a small number of deer hunters to hunt all three seasons—archery, muzzleloader and rifle—on the limited-entry or premium limited-entry unit they drew a permit for.

In the past, this multi-season hunting opportunity was available only to a small number of elk and black bear hunters. "We wanted to give limited-entry deer hunters the same chance," Shannon says.

About three percent of the limited-entry and premium limited-entry deer permits offered in 2015 will give hunters this opportunity.

Three more days to hunt elk

If you obtain a limited-entry muzzleloader elk permit, you'll have three additional days to hunt. The limited-entry muzzleloader elk hunt runs Sept. 21–Oct. 2.

Longer mountain goat hunt

Mountain goat hunters will also have more time afield.

In the past, Utah's once-in-a-lifetime mountain goat hunt ended in mid-October on most units. During the 2015 season, the hunt will end anywhere from late October to late November. The ending dates vary by unit.

Urban archery deer hunt in Cache County

To lessen the number of deer that are living in urban areas in Cache County, an archery-only urban deer hunt will be held.

The hunt will happen mostly on private land in an area that includes the towns of Clarkston, Trenton, Wellsville and Mendon. The hunt runs Sept. 12–Nov. 30.


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks for posting this up!


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

I tried to listen to it, although work kept interrupting. ð

I don't know if I misunderstood, but the thing that I remember was a man from Southern Utah saying that if elk came on their property the land owners would call the DWR and if they weren't off the property within 72 hours, they'd start shooting. Perhaps I misunderstood, because the board really didn't react at all other than say thank you. He had others elands as well.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

Other demands*


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Ironic---- In the mist of tophy hunters killing opportunities.
> 
> http://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/1550-new-opportunities-for-hunters.html





utahgolf said:


> what was I thinking.....That's quite a lot of opportunity for those 20 lucky hunters!


Actually, when you throw in the multi-season LE tags too, there could be opportunity for over 100 people outside the regular LE draw.
Which may take hundreds, if not over a thousand applicants out of the regular LE draw.
Not only will it slow down the point creep but we may see it reversed for a few years.
Now that's something to get excited about.
I was pleased to see how things went this year at the WB meeting.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^^^ Spot on ridge ! ^^^^^^^^^^^

Here's another exciting thing I'm seeing,
With this werid , warm weather, All the wildlife I'm watching is doing unbeievably well!

The number of carry over bucks looks AWESOME!----Might be the most in years!

I'd bet money when the winter counts are over, In May, there will be larger increases
of deer permts on general units accross the board................................

May-be this will quite these opertunity waco's up.......


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> ^^^^^^^ Spot on ridge ! ^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Here's another exciting thing I'm seeing,
> With this wired , warm weather, All the wildlife I'm watching is doing unbeievably well!
> ...


 So, the vast majority of Utah hunters are now considered wacos! Hmmm!

And, yes, there may be larger increases of deer permits on general units across the board proposed by the DWR, but those sane quality hunters will see it doesn't happen with "overcrowding", raising buck to doe ratios and more limited entry hunts. We wacos would hate to see that happen. Oh, wait! They're already starting the process!

And if the increase does happen, we'll see those sane shortened season and antler restriction tactics. We certainly can't have those "opertunity waco's" running the system, can we?


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## PaleHorse1 (Jul 11, 2011)

I thought I remember seeing somewhere in the draft of new regs that l.e. deer hunters would be allowed to hunt extended archery areas (with archery eqp) if they were not successful on thier limited entry hunts? I am I mistaken? Or did the WB kill that idea?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> ^^^^^^^ Spot on ridge ! ^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Here's another exciting thing I'm seeing,
> With this werid , warm weather, All the wildlife I'm watching is doing unbeievably well!
> ...


This coming from the guy who thinks 99% of the people on these forums want to be him. Who's whe whacko??


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

PaleHorse1 said:


> I thought I remember seeing somewhere in the draft of new regs that l.e. deer hunters would be allowed to hunt extended archery areas (with archery eqp) if they were not successful on thier limited entry hunts? I am I mistaken? Or did the WB kill that idea?


It passed! Limited entry archery deer hunters (and maybe elk, I don't remember) can hunt extended archery areas if they haven't filled their tag. This also includes the new multi-season hunters.

And just FYI, the proposal I made to study the possibility of an increase in the number of extended archery areas to units with over objective populations and buck to doe ratios was never actually discussed at this meeting, but will likely be put on the action list at the next Wildlife Board meeting per my after meeting conversations with John Baer and Greg Sheehan. We may not see anything happen for a year or so, but it's on the radar.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Hey goofball, I'm seeing the same thing in Idaho. Except $FW doesn't have their slimball greasy paws in Idaho or Option WTF. Weird.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

goofy elk said:


> May-be this will quite these opertunity waco's up.......


hooked on phonics or hooked on crack? :shock:


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## PaleHorse1 (Jul 11, 2011)

elkfromabove said:


> It passed! Limited entry archery deer hunters (and maybe elk, I don't remember) can hunt extended archery areas if they haven't filled their tag. This also includes the new multi-season hunters.
> 
> And just FYI, the proposal I made to study the possibility of an increase in the number of extended archery areas to units with over objective populations and buck to doe ratios was never actually discussed at this meeting, but will likely be put on the action list at the next Wildlife Board meeting per my after meeting conversations with John Baer and Greg Sheehan. We may not see anything happen for a year or so, but it's on the radar.l


So if i understand correctly this only applies to L.E. archery hunters and premium tag holders. Or is it in effect for l.e. muzzle and rifle guys too? depending on how it is written greatly effects my application choices next year.


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

PaleHorse1 said:


> So if i understand correctly this only applies to L.E. archery hunters and premium tag holders. Or is it in effect for l.e. muzzle and rifle guys too? depending on how it is written greatly effects my application choices next year.


It only applies to the LE archery tags.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

There is never a shortage of those willing to kill the golden goose. Its reality, that's why those silly children stories where written long ago.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Goofy buddy, I have been QUIETed before but never been QUITEd. Please tell me how that works? I can't wait to hear the answer while I'm salivating at the idea of more tags next year! Have you taught this trick to 1*eye? Maybe that's his problem. He has been QUITEd? This could actually make you rich if you could figure out how to market it.;-)


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> There is never a shortage of those willing to kill the golden goose. Its reality, that's why those silly children stories where written long ago.


Actually, it's the goose that laid the golden eggs! The eggs were golden, not the goose. Your mama musta read it to you wrong!

Edit: And most of us aren't after the goose, but since we're feeding her, we just want 70% (or more) of the eggs returned to wildlife.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

elkfromabove said:


> So, the vast majority of Utah hunters are now considered wacos! Hmmm!


A vast majority of Utah hunters have no clue about any of the issues and don't want to know. They just want a tag every year OTC like it used to be. But won't tolerate 1/10 b/d ratios. Only the opportunity Waco's and goofy refers to tolerate ultra low b/d ratios.

And the super hunter that can spend several weeks a yr scouting planning hiking and packing checking cams ect ect. Those guys shoot big bucks no matter what happens. And never seem to complain about quality.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Whats a Waco? Isn't that a city in Texas? -Ov-


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Wacko


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lee,
My mother read it just fine and I understood it perfectly. In fact I understood it enough to apply it too lifes. You didn't understand my comment because we view the world differently. The golden goose I was referring to was the deer herd not the 70% of anything. 
See Lee I've watched and read this particular story long before you started to pay attention. You've read the last few chapters. You've even attempted to write a few lines of your own. However until you understand the whole story you will never completely understand. And even if you did read the entire story we probably would see it differently. We are different people with different views on many things I would guess.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> Lee,
> My mother read it just fine and I understood it perfectly. In fact I understood it enough to apply it too lifes. You didn't understand my comment because we view the world differently. The golden goose I was referring to was the deer herd not the 70% of anything.
> See Lee I've watched and read this particular story long before you started to pay attention. You've read the last few chapters. You've even attempted to write a few lines of your own. However until you understand the whole story you will never completely understand. And even if you did read the entire story we probably would see it differently. We are different people with different views on many things I would guess.


 I apologize for not understanding your reference (I thought you were referring to the EXPO and/or the permits), but you've got to be kidding about me not reading or understanding the story, nor applying it to life. That's why I felt I had to correct you! And you're really off base by stating I haven't been paying attention until lately. I just didn't feel I had a medium nor an organization that I could trust that would allow me to do something about it. MDF (I'm a member) and RMEF (I was a member) are close, but too species specific, and SFW was close 10 or 15 years ago, but certainly not now.

As far as me not knowing the whole story, I'll have to admit that you're correct. But then again NOBODY knows the whole story because it's continually being written as the current studies have shown! The deer and other wildlife are continually having to adjust to human encroachment, droughts, p & j encroachment, loss of quality habitat, new highways, fences, carbon fuels exploration and extraction, predator fluctuations, ATV's, diseases, cheatgrass invasions, etc., etc., etc. But I can assure you that I'm making every effort I can to keep up.

As far as me trying to write a few lines, I'm glad you noticed. That means I'm actually making a difference. You should try it sometime!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lee,
I'll give you an B+ for effort. And you do earn and A on interweb interaction. As far as making a difference and trying it sometime. I'm content with my efforts past and present. Like I said there's more to the entire book.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> Like I said there's more to the entire book.


 If that's the case, then please tell us what we're missing.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Muley73 said:


> Lee,
> I'll give you an B+ for effort. And you do earn and A on interweb interaction. As far as making a difference and trying it sometime. I'm content with my efforts past and present. Like I said there's more to the entire book.


Lee,

Napkin Books get wet and the lines smear. There's no purpose in trying to read a wet napkin book to keep up. I would recommend using Bounty paper towels instead of napkins. I understand they are stronger.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> It passed! Limited entry archery deer hunters (and maybe elk, I don't remember) can hunt extended archery areas if they haven't filled their tag. This also includes the new multi-season hunters.
> 
> And just FYI, the proposal I made to study the possibility of an increase in the number of extended archery areas to units with over objective populations and buck to doe ratios was never actually discussed at this meeting, but will likely be put on the action list at the next Wildlife Board meeting per my after meeting conversations with John Baer and Greg Sheehan. We may not see anything happen for a year or so, but it's on the radar.


Just like I have been saying. If you want change, start early in the process and start now.

Remember this wild idea I had last spring and brought the idea to this forum?
http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/76345-thoughts-2nd-season-late-deer-hunt.html

I had no idea it would actually get passed this year.
So it doesn't hurt to throw out ideas every now and then.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^^^^ Oh ya !!!! ^^^^^^^^


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lee,
See, sometimes napkin meetings and behind the scenes meetings and suggestions do go somewhere. I had the same conversation last year about some archery only extended units through out the state. Hopefully it gains more support this coming year.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> Lee,
> See, sometimes napkin meetings and behind the scenes meetings and suggestions do go somewhere. I had the same conversation last year about some archery only extended units through out the state. Hopefully it gains more support this coming year.


The big difference is that my proposal was made in a videoed open Wildlife Board meeting and Greg Sheehan _came to me _after the meeting to tell me John liked the idea and apologized to him for not bringing it up in his proposal and that John wouldn't forget it next time. All I did was separately thank both of them! Call that a napkin or behind the scenes meeting if you want, but the decision was made via my public proposal.

I do have to admit I've been in on two napkin meetings. One was an SFW sponsored meeting we were invited to by Rusty Aiken early on during the Mule Deer Committee meetings and we came to agreements on several issues. The other one was during the lunch break from the last WB meeting when I overheard SFW, UBA and UHA two tables away talking about the bear plan and I decided to join them since we had two reps on the committee. (Rude of me, wasn't it) In any case, Bryon asked me for my opinion on the proposed changes/tweaks, so I asked for more details and when I heard them, they appeared to fit our mission statement (still do)and so I went out on a limb in behalf of our membership and added our endorsement to the proposal. Can you imagine Utah Bowhunters Assoc. and Utah Houndsmen Assoc. making a joint proposal on the bear plan, let alone SFW and UWC?

As long as we can stick to the issues, and not take differences so personally, we'll find we're better off and more importantly, the critters are better off. I brought up Lonetree's concerns 3 times in the Mule Deer Committee meetings and all I heard were Lonetree attacks, though they didn't dare identify him by name, and all I got was "nutrition" printed one time in the plan. And the rebuttals regarding our EXPO proposal are nothing short of a vocal National Inquirer (they hate SFW, they want to shut down the EXPO, they're jealous, they're trying to ruin "quality" hunts, they're uneducated, they're misinformed, they're greedy, we're the best for the job, no other organization would have time to plan an EXPO, the EXPO would leave Utah, the DWR couldn't function without us, etc.) The real issues of the EXPO tag application fees are seldom even mentioned.

Well, I'm done with this thread. (Edited, I meant issue! The thread has taken a new turn.) I'll continue doing as Muley73 suggests and take it those who make the decisions.


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## turkinator (May 25, 2008)

Was there a decision reached on what to do with the general deer preference point system or not allowing big Bulls to be shot on the Sanpete extended hunt?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

turkinator said:


> Was there a decision reached on what to do with the general deer preference point system or not allowing big Bulls to be shot on the Sanpete extended hunt?


They left the preference points as is for now. 
And I think they did away with the Sanpete extended.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> They left the preference points as is for now.
> And I think they did away with the Sanpete extended.


That is sad to hear about the preference points being left alone. They are one of the largest boondoggles that there is in the draw.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Critter said:


> That is sad to hear about the preference points being left alone. They are one of the largest boondoggles that there is in the draw.


It's not quite what you think! The reason they left them alone is because next month DWR is beginning a study of the combining of preference and bonus points and they just didn't want to make any changes until that study is complete. We'll have to live with the boondoggle for one more year is all!


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

How are they going to combine preference points and bonus points?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

swbuckmaster said:


> How are they going to combine preference points and bonus points?


Unknown, that's why the study. In fact, they may not be able to it at all, legally or otherwise.

FWIW, EVERY DWR issue has to pass through a pentagon of criteria, ie: biological, legal, social, financial and technological (logistical), and this one could be hung up on several.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You would think that they would of corrected the problem even for just one year. Perhaps there are a few on the wildlife board that are using the system as it is now to get tags. 

That's just a guess and I have no proof but it sounds strange to me.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Critter said:


> You would think that they would of corrected the problem even for just one year. Perhaps there are a few on the wildlife board that are using the system as it is now to get tags.
> 
> That's just a guess and I have no proof but it sounds strange to me.


 No, it was the money issue ($8,000 per computer program change) as well as the PR. It could have required a change in the computer system two years in a row ($16,000) and the public is already tired of major changes every year. John Baer was the one who brought it up and I don't think he even hunts general deer.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Wouldn't surprise we one bit to see deer points go to one system...
Limited entry for every thing..

This would eliminate guys being able to apply for two deer tags annualy..

It would also take A TON of presure off the LE elk and antelope draws..
Would all but end the 'point creep'....

I told kris Marble (bullsnot) 3-4 years ago deer points were heading this direstion.
He thought i was crazy......We'll see.;-)


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

I'll wage you Muleskinner's SFW membership knife that your wrong and bucksnot's been to the gypsy's. 

Check the wind goofy! Everyones left the theater and your still watching last weeks movie.

Not going to happen, guaranteed.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Oh buddy Orange, its going to happen, just a queston of when..:!:..^^^^^^

All of Utah's deer deer units are already LE....

About time to make the point system match up.


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## chukarflusher (Jan 20, 2014)

goofy elk said:


> Oh buddy Orange, its going to happen, just a queston of when..:!:..^^^^^^
> 
> All of Utah's deer deer units are already LE....
> 
> About time to make the point system match up.


I hope your right best thing that could happen opportunity guys can have there opportunity and trophy guys can have there trophies win win all around


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

chukarflusher said:


> I hope your right best thing that could happen opportunity guys can have there opportunity and trophy guys can have there trophies win win all around


Except for the guys that like to hunt both deer and elk... can only put in for a single LE species remember.

-DallanC


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## chukarflusher (Jan 20, 2014)

That's fine everything limited entry I'd sacrifice deer to have a little bit better odds to draw the elk tag I've dreamed about since I first started hunting elk


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Except for the guys that like to hunt both deer and elk... can only put in for a single LE species remember.
> 
> -DallanC


That is something that they will need to also look at and perhaps change if they combine points. They will also need to address DH and LL tag holders in the mix.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Critter said:


> That is something that they will need to also look at and perhaps change if they combine points. They will also need to address DH and LL tag holders in the mix.


 Like I said, it'll have to pass legal, financial, biological, social and technological scrutiny. I don't think biology will play into the decision, but you can bet the others will, especially social. And if they add some additional extended hunts as I proposed it may help (or hurt) the decision depending on how many are for opportunity or "quality". Look for some fun discussions on this forum.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

One thing it would do for sure, Is,
Unplug the LE elk backlog!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Combining all deer points as LE in the bonus point system, and keeping it so residents can only apply for one LE species, would be the dumbest thing I've ever seen Utah wildlife managers do. 

Which means it is likely a shoe-in to pass...


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

Sorry goofy..........here I thought you meant in the next ten years. Stupid me for falling for the.......someday...........trick. 

Someday the sun will burn out! 

Guess Muleskinner get's to keep the shank.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

osageorange said:


> Sorry goofy..........here I thought you meant in the next ten years. Stupid me for falling for the.......someday...........trick.
> 
> Someday the sun will burn out!
> 
> Guess Muleskinner get's to keep the shank.


It will happen before 2025, one point system, I'll take that bet !

Here's the thing,

The whole world is changing at lighting speed with new technology...

The sport of hunting is changing along with it, Right before are eyes!

Those who do not change along with it are going to be left in the dust...


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> It will happen before 2025, one point system, I'll take that bet !
> 
> Here's the thing,
> 
> ...


 And you're assuming all these changes are going to improve the sport of hunting, at least for you. But there are forces out there that don't even want the *sport* of hunting, let alone the hunters that don't have it high enough on their list of priorities to suit you. All of this technology benefits them as well and you can bet they're keeping up. Better keep your face mask handy!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Eva,
Serious question here. In your previous post why do you say opportunity and then "quality"? Why quotations around the quality???


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Uhmmm....because opportunity is not subjective? Because "quality" is in the eye of the beholder?


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

K,
You answering for Lee now? They are both subjective, equally! lol that response cracks me up, it says so much.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

K,
So speaking as a rep of the UWC you say that opportunity is NOT subjective. Meaning it's only the way you see it or it's wrong. Again a post that I hope many sportsmen and women read. 
I agree that quality is in the eye of the beholder! I agree 100%. I also believe that opportunity is completely subjective also.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> Eva,
> Serious question here. In your previous post why do you say opportunity and then "quality"? Why quotations around the quality???


Because trophy hunters aren't now willing to identify themselves as "trophy" hunters and we now hear them only use the word "quality" when talking about trophy hunts as if all other hunts aren't quality hunts. And because the word "quality" means so many different things to different people, but "opportunity" has only one meaning.

As an illustration, one of my favorite quality hunts took place a couple of years ago when I shot an antelope with my bow in the last few minutes of the hunt. The sun had already gone down and with a month of rain, my waterhole setups were useless, so I decided to make one last effort to find one of the bucks hanging around the Wecco complex (west of Cedar City) where they are used to seeing people. And, lo and behold, I saw a dink trying to get back to the complex from some private property that I had verbal permission to hunt (it was before the new fence law). He was so intent on finding a spot in the fence to crawl under that he actually came towards me and I shot him at 11 yards. (Yes, I was off the road.) So, where's the quality? I had with me my two grandsons and a new friend that I had met on this forum who had an antelope rifle tag for this unit beginning the next day and we were in his truck and this was the first time my grandsons had actually seen me harvest an animal. They were so excited that they started screaming and scared the buck out into the sagebrush and I had to go after him. I saw him lay down in a spot where he could keep his eye on me, so I had to circle around him about 100 yards to where he couldn't see me coming. Then I finally got close enough to shoot, but he bolted as I was drawing back. This happened 3 times and meanwhile it was getting darker until I couldn't see him anymore, so I had my friend call the local CO to let him know we were going to have to find him in the morning which was after the hunt, plus I was concerned about shooting after hours. The CO said to just go ahead and recover him in the morning.

But the quality didn't end there that evening. The next morning, all 4 of us went back, including the friend who gave up his opening day to help us. As we were parking near the complex, the Wecco Security guard drove up wanting to know what we were doing because they didn't want us on their property, especially with guns. When we told him, he not only was ok with it, he helped us look for the buck. When my friend found the buck, the boys then got to see me field dress the animal where they kept asking questions about the body parts and what we could eat and then they made two trips to the truck carrying the meat and head. And to this day they still talk about that hunt and I still have the horns, though they aren't mounted. Now the oldest turns 12 on the 11th of January. Guess what he wants as a birthday present? His hunter safety card! Now, is that a quality hunt or not?

You guys call it what it is and then I won't have to put it in quotations!

Edited: My memory is fading! The friend found the buck not the guard as I originally stated. Sorry about the missed detail.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lee,
Great story and I agee it sounds like you had a quality experience. But still you state opportunity only has one definition. I assume that is a definition you have personally deemed as "the only definition". Again opportunity as every bit as subjective as quality. At least in my opinion.


Kinda ironic that you used a LE hunt to discribe your quality experience. I recently had a quality experience in fact multiple quality experiences on OTC, general season, hunting and fishing trips. Quality without a doubt is in the eye of the beholder. So is opportunity!!!


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lee,
I would also point out that anytime an animal is hit poorly and suffers through the night it's not "quality". But hey that's what happens sometimes. Glad it worked out in the end. 

Also how many of the other hunters on the unit had the "opportunity" to hunt this private property? "Opportunity" would seem to be subjective in this story as well as quality?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

"Quality": It has already been widely written about and become accepted vernacular that the last 20 years is known as the "quality era". So since there is already widely accepted agreement on this, lets look at the last 20 years to see what "quality" looks like. Within this context is where the "devil is in the details" arguments come from.

At the end of the day, when we look at the cumulative affects of all those individual sub arguments within this context, it is summed up by the record, of the last 20 years, of the "quality era". The past is prologue as they say.

So the last 20 years of the "quality era" consisted of large marked wildlife declines, huge amounts of money and commercialization pouring into the sport and conservation efforts. It also saw the largest decline in hunters, both new and existing, with ever increasing emphasis on trophy hunting, while the largest amount of money every raised in the name of conservation, did not show any returns, like conservation efforts had in the decades before the "quality era".

Yeah, you have to love the "quality", I'm sure glad we are going to get us some MORE of that!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Or as those fool hardy enough to show me how to use a camera keep saying, "turn the ring closest to the camera body, then the one at the end". 

But you can keep doing it the other way if you want. Its just that the image comes out blurry, I guess it is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Opportunity: This one is a little more complicated, because you have to look to decades before the "quality era", the picture is still relatively clear though. More animals create more opportunity. Did every one get that? I know its a much harder concept than "quality", the key is understanding the more animals part.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> K,
> So speaking as a rep of the UWC you say that opportunity is NOT subjective. Meaning it's only the way you see it or it's wrong. Again a post that I hope many sportsmen and women read.
> I agree that quality is in the eye of the beholder! I agree 100%. I also believe that opportunity is completely subjective also.


 We're not even speaking the same language as I told one of the members of the mule deer committee when he was trying to push "quality" hunts as opposed to "meat" hunts as he called them. He wanted to bring in more trophy hunting nonresidents with their money and he wanted more "quality" hunts without hurting "opportunity" "that much.". (In other words, he was willing to reduce nontrophy hunter's tags but only just a little.) And he said, rightfully so, that nonresidents (meaning those who brag) brag about the antlers, not the meat. I tried to tell him and the others that many others come here for the family time and experience and that we need more of those nonresidents as well, but the conversation died with a call from DWR to keep the committee process going.

Logistically, we could debate this issue forever, but let me ask you this: If an outsider were to hear those two words in a typical RAC discussion, what conclusion would he/she likely come to as to their meaning?

If you can truthfully answer that, maybe we can get somewhere with this conversation.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Nope, I guess everyone missed that part.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lee,
I clearly stated that I thought both quailty and opportunity are subjective. That was my point from the start. I still believe that there is no need for me clarify as I was honest to begin with. You are the one saying opportunity is not subjective. Stating what you believe is right and the other view is not. So from the start I've been willing to look at multiple angles. Thanks for clarify your hardline.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Muley73 said:


> Lee,
> I clearly stated that I thought both quailty and opportunity are subjective. That was my point from the start. I still believe that there is no need for me clarify as I was honest to begin with. You are the one saying opportunity is not subjective. Stating what you believe is right and the other view is not. So from the start I've been willing to look at multiple angles. Thanks for clarify your hardline.


You could say opportunity is subjective, but you would not be being very intellectually honest. Either you have more opportunity or you have less, and when it comes to hunting, the biological variable that controls opportunity is the availability of game. Politically its controlled by those that reduce it through "management", when they have failed to increase it biologically.

There are a whole lot of stick man arguments being made here.


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

Opportunity is more deer, said the lone tree.
Opportunity is open season, said the farmer.
Opportunity is longer seasons, said the turkey.
Opportunity is state wide archery, said the rooster.
Opportunity is state wide rifle, said the pig.
Opportunity is a sleepy Warden, said the fox.
Opportunity is a clan hunt, said the family man.
Opportunity is a rut hunt, said the mailman.
Opportunity is unlimited Non-Res. tags, said the California man.
Opportunity is any deer, said the fat man.
Opportunity is $2 tags, said the poor man.
Opportunity is auction tags, said the wealthy man.
Opportunity is Park tags, said the generous man.
Opportunity is a tag, a tag for the entire family, a tag for the entire village, a tag for the entire State, a tag for the entire Nation, the World.


Quality is a wide buck, said the barn door.
Quality is a heavy buck, said the draft horse.
Quality is any buck, said the coyote.
Quality is an old buck, said the cougar.
Quality is bucks of all ages, the day dreamer.
Quality is larger antlered bucks, said the proud man.
Quality is fewer hunters, said the grumpy man.
Quality is smaller units, said the foolish man.
Quality is shorter seasons, said the busy man.
Quality is road closures, said the horseman.
Quality is a yearling, said the meat man.
Quality is a spike, said the freshman.
Quality is a two point, said the sophomore.
Quality is a three point, said the junior.
Quality is a four point, said the senior.
Quality is a tag, a tag for the entire family, a tag for the entire village, a tag for the entire State, a tag for the entire Nation, the World.

To suggest that you can define Opportunity or Quality is abject madness, in it's most acute narcissistic form.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> Lee,
> I would also point out that anytime an animal is hit poorly and suffers through the night it's not "quality". But hey that's what happens sometimes. Glad it worked out in the end.
> 
> Also how many of the other hunters on the unit had the "opportunity" to hunt this private property? "Opportunity" would seem to be subjective in this story as well as quality?


We not only don't speak the same language. We don't even live on the same planet as evidenced by your post about all the hunts you and your family have been on.

The hit was just fine! It's just that it was getting dark and I wanted to get it in the truck that night, so the friend could get an early start on his hunt in the morning. And, as you're well aware, hemoraging from a broadhead takes longer to kill an animal than shock and shrapnel from a bullet. I made the mistake of being in too much of a hurry, that's all.

And anyone and everyone had an opportunity to hunt that property because it was purposely never posted and has never been. The signs on the gates just tell you to keep them closed. I just happen to know Dr. Brown and we talked about it years before and he is happy as he as can be to get rid of those goats as are most of the ranchers out there. That's why there is only one CWMU (pronghorn only) in that area. They don't want to do any more than they have to to encourage wildlife. They've got all they can handle with the wild horses let alone antelope, deer, elk, and coyotes. And even on the lone CWMU (Zane), Matt Wood, the owner just wants them hunted. In fact, Carlyle's (UWC's vice president) wife has a cow elk tag in the unit and Matt's son jokingly told her she can hunt their property but she has to shoot 9 more elk.

Why would it be ironic to site an antelope LE hunt as either a quality or opportunity hunt? That species is publically managed biologically (all surplus bucks), not socially (buck to doe ratios) and we don't have two or three qualities of hunts (Premium Limited Entry, Limited Entry and General) because of it. The price of the permit is the same, the point system is the same, and the draw procedure is the same and the hunters are all drawn from the same pool. The hunter opportunity is the same for trophy hunters and nontrophy hunters alike and the hunters themselves decide what quality means by choosing the weapon, unit, size of horns and hunting style.

Your approach to this discussion it just an effort to discredit me and other nontrophy hunters all the while ignoring the "meat" of the subject. I guess we'll see how far that takes you in the future.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

osageorange said:


> Opportunity is more deer, said the lone tree.
> Opportunity is open season, said the farmer.
> Opportunity is longer seasons, said the turkey.
> Opportunity is state wide archery, said the rooster.
> ...


Stick man arguments, from the stick man himself. Everything can be broken down and defined, unless one does not really want to, because they want to blur the picture, and distract from the reality of the situation.

More animals bring about all those "examples" of opportunity that you listed.

And we know how "quality" has played out in its various forms over the last 20 years, therefor we know how it will play in the next 20. Less animals, less hunting, less hunters, more money being made on it.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

osageorange said:


> Opportunity is more deer, said the lone tree.
> Opportunity is open season, said the farmer.
> Opportunity is longer seasons, said the turkey.
> Opportunity is state wide archery, said the rooster.
> ...


 Touche! I stand corrected. I just know how the two words are currently being used to manage hunting (not wildlife).


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

One is acute, one is, and has been chronic.


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

More deer or less deer has nothing to do with Utah hunting opportunity or Utah hunting quality. If you have one deer or millions, the number of tags issued can be minimal or enormous. If you have one deer or millions, the size of the antler can be minimal or enormous.

There certainly are a whole lot of stickmen arguments, your's included, thanks for concurring with the point I've hopelessly trying to make for the last twelve months.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Less deer is the reasoning used to reduced tags, ie. opportunity. One leads to the other, they are intrinsically linked and dependent. 

If we are growing more deer it is because they are healthier, which in turn can lead to larger antlers, at a minimum it is more bucks, which also creates more opportunity. 

We've seen what the "quality era" bought us, it is the culmination of every "quality" argument out their.

As usual you have no clue as to what you speak about. Please specifically point out and explain my stick man arguments, you can't.


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

Can you loose deer and increase tags?
Can you loose deer and continue to issue the same number of tags?
Can you loose deer and increase the size of antlers?
Can you increase the number of tags and increase the size of antlers?
Can you reduce the number of tags, increase the number of deer and still reduce quality?
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and still yes.

Once again, the number of deer has nothing whatever to do with the number of people that get to go hunting or the size of deer antlers. The Wasatch Front has proven that, year after year. The regulation and the rules of engagement have everything to do with opportunity and antler size, as the terms are used by the RAC and the WB, which is what this discussion has always been about.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

osageorange said:


> Can you loose deer and increase tags?
> Can you loose deer and continue to issue the same number of tags?
> Can you loose deer and increase the size of antlers?
> Can you increase the number of tags and increase the size of antlers?
> ...


All false, stick man, red herring, illogical arguments on a very fundamental level.

"The regulation and the rules of engagement have everything to do with opportunity and antler size, as the terms are used by the RAC and the WB, which is what this discussion has always been about."

So regulations create big antlers? This is not the case and is completely impossible regardless of how people use the terms.

Guys like you, are another symptom of what the "quality era" bought us, a lack of logic or critical thinking skills. And should we expect any less?

No one wants to address the last 30 years of wildlife declines, and the exploitation of that, because after 30 years of selling off our heritage, and building an industry around that, no one seems to know how to fix the real problem. So they create BS circumstances, regulations, and theory, to attempt to demonstrate any thing that might actually resemble progress, understanding or control, while possessing none of them.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Regulations can not create big antlers or more deer, but they can foster the circumstance that do provide for those things, that is not happening. And you would think that would be a priority.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

You have to love how certain people like to take me to task over my stance on wanting to create more deer, and using proven scientific method, that brought us a bygone era of opportunity and quality(what ever that is to everyone) to do it.

No, no, no, not more deer!


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

Never said nor ever indicated that I do or do not want more deer. Truth is, you don't know what I want, or don't want, on this or any other matter. You think, like ever other o-piners, on this here virtual problem solver, that your definition and your solutions and your understanding are the only real world answers the mule deer population, health, and mule deer hunting. They aren't............................point is fact. You couldn't get consensus from a room full of mule deer PhDs, let along a few hundred unmanageable, individually motivated sportsmen.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

No we don't know what you want, just what you argue against which gives us a pretty good idea what you are for. We have a small recorded peek at it, and what/who triggered it over the last 4 years here.

It does not matter if 2 or 100 mule deer biologists agree or disagree on anything, or if sportsmen do or don't as well, it matters what causes mule deer numbers to go up and down. And the last 20 years has been a down hill slide, as we have thrown out science in favor of the current politics, while wildlife and hunters continue to suffer, as we pile on with more of it. 

As for my solutions, and understanding of the real world, dismantle them if you think they are unfounded, or detrimental to hunting, hunters, or our game. Or show us how more of the same of the last 20 years is any better than the last 20 years. Or I guess you can just sit their with nothing, like you always do, trying to make false non arguments of quasi pragmatism. Over the last 4 years that is all you have ever done on this board.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Muley73 said:


> K,
> So speaking as a rep of the UWC *(I am a board member, not a spokesperson)* you say that opportunity is NOT subjective. Meaning it's only the way you see it or it's wrong. *(no, I posted definitions for you but NOT being subjective means it is what it is, not what you want it to be) *Again a post that I hope many sportsmen and women read. *(okay, me too) *I agree that quality is in the eye of the beholder! I agree 100%. I also believe that opportunity is completely subjective also. *(maybe you're right, its subjected to those who only want quality...my bad)*


op·por·tu·ni·ty

noun: *opportunity*; plural noun: *opportunities*
a set of circumstances that makes it possible to do something.

sub·jec·tive

adjective: *subjective*
based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

qual·i·ty

noun: *quality*; plural noun: *qualities*
the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something.


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

20 years of reducing hunting oppertunity for Utah residents has resulted in reduced recrutment of young hunters and less popular support for hunting.
If you are concerned about future generations hunting in Utah you should favor increasing opportunity. not giving a few moneyed hunters from out of state bigger trophies.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lee,
So we are not on the same planet because my family chooses to take advantage of opportunities to hunt and fish? These are opportunities that you yourself could take advantage of as easily as myself and boys. What you are sayng is you are on a wildlife organization board and believe we are on different planets because we approach hunting and fishing on general season and open to public outdoor opportunities differently? I am not trying to discredit you personally, I am trying to discredit your ideology. The personal stuff are things you are bringing up on your own. 

K,
Thank you for the definitions. Whether something is still an opportunity or not is subjective. As I just pointed out above. It is apparent to me that UWC or at least there leadership is taking a stance that opportunity is only considered opportunity if it allows the kind of experience you personally are seeking.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Muley73, its only subjective in your head. We can look to the past and the present, apples to apples, and and make quantitative unequivocal statements about this. Less wildlife over the last 20 years has created less opportunity to hunt plain and simple. You and SFW, and the DWR can try to spin it any way you like, there is less wildlife, and less opportunity. 

Less moose, less deer, less antelope, less sage grouse, less trout, less pheasants......LESS wildlife.........LESS opportunity. And importing sheep that just keep dieing, or wasting money moving Mt goats that were already migrating on their own does not, and can not fill the void left by the suppressed numbers of other wildlife. No amount of creative hunter control, named other things can change that.

The last 20 years of "conservation", ie. the quality era, and the orgs and wildlife departments that have their prints all over it, are a complete and utter failure. And you, the DWR, and just about every conservation org out there has yet to propose, or even mutter anything that looks any different from the failures of the last 20 years.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I like these guys better than most: http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org/ I was with them in the beginning. But if you go to their website, and go to the education page, there is a link that takes you to here: http://www.muledeerworkinggroup.com/Docs/IMW_Mule_Deer_Habitat_Guidelines.pdf This is just more of the same failed path of the last 20 years.

Like I said, this is from what was supposed to be a contrasting view, that was in many many ways much better than the current bunch of idiots that sold us down the river. But alas, just more of the same.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Despite what some people may feel or believe, the last 20 years are not the "norm". They are a complete travesty and failure. We are doubling down on everything that brought us the new norm of the "quality era", where low wildlife numbers, low tag numbers, reduced hunter recruitment, and big money dominated politics rein over sportsmen. 

And the lap dogs just keep playing fetch for their masters.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

According to this link, the whole earth is in trouble and can not figure out what the heck Lonetree is trying to sell us.
http://www.fastcoexist.com/3036469/half-the-planets-wildlife-has-died-off-in-the-last-40-years

I guess all of us living here in the intermountain West are not the only idiots on this planet.;-)


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

It doesn't matter if you want quality or quantity if the sky is falling like lonetree and the article ridge posted says.


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

Did you just say, "But alas, just more of the same." Your mocking me, right! That's my line bud, one of those "illogical arguments on a very fundamental level".

Geez, lonesome, at least refrain from plagiarizing realities, stick to my sticks.

You'll never get it Striker. None of these are my beliefs, there the beliefs of the participants here abouts, and yours. Repeated back they look stupid and ridiculous, like y'all.

In another 20 years, or even 30, you'll still be sqawking and walking, by yourself, blaming somebody for something and accomplishing nothing, for the deer or a the hunters. And the rest of these boys will still be bawl'en and squall'en while people are getten stuff done, right or wrong, somebody's doing something and it ain't the quarterbacks hanging out in this bowling alley.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I did not click the link, but yeah its global, its not a unit by unit issue. I think I have been trying to say that now for a few years, glad you are starting to get it. 

I'm not selling anything, I'm working on an understanding, that provides an opportunity to make things better, and correct the current course. I don't have a convention to sell anything at.

Saying "Look they are stupid, so we can be too" does not excuse those decades of declines, it only admits our culpability in it, and our failure to address it, or fix it.

"Look ma, everyone is snorting coke............"


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

osageorange said:


> Did you just say, "But alas, just more of the same." Your mocking me, right! That's my line bud, one of those "illogical arguments on a very fundamental level".
> 
> Geez, lonesome, at least refrain from plagiarizing realities, stick to my sticks.
> 
> ...


Getting stuff done, that's part of the problem. I'll put my record of getting things done things done against your any day. Hard to engage a guy that dodges debate, and won't make a stand though.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Lt has some of the best one liners on this forum. I always get a kick how splains it to the masses.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lone,
That's hilarous! Like Osage said earlier you have no idea who he is. Yet you make a comment that you've done more than him? Honestly how can you make a comment like that??? You have no idea who he is and he has no idea who you are. I tell you INTERWEB HEROS EVERYWHERE!!!! Both of you!!!! Funny stuff!!!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> It doesn't matter if you want quality or quantity if the sky is falling like lonetree and the article ridge posted says.


SW, I wish it was not true I other things I would like to be doing, but everything I am looking at says we are heading for a crash like we saw in the early '90s. When you have history as a guide, its not so hard to see once you know what you are looking for. We are not going to reach 400,000 deer, they are already in a slow decline. They have already crashed, in some places a couple years ago. Go look at Natrona and Fremont county Wyoming.

And it is not just deer, its the moose, its the sheep, its antelope, just like we saw in the early '90s.

Here is a simple one for those around back then, and those that get around now: How many cactus bucks are you seeing? The last time we saw this many was...........

I know some people did not see them then, or know, I qualified the statement.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Muley73 said:


> Lone,
> That's hilarous! Like Osage said earlier you have no idea who he is. Yet you make a comment that you've done more than him? Honestly how can you make a comment like that??? You have no idea who he is and he has no idea who you are. I tell you INTERWEB HEROS EVERYWHERE!!!! Both of you!!!! Funny stuff!!!


Trust me, lots of people know who I am, and not just here on this forum. I don't care who O is, his non positions and non statements speak for them selves, they are empty shows of distraction.

As for web heros, what are you doing? Not what your daddy has done, WTF have you done?


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

SCOTT CONCERTMAN aka lonesome?
Welcome to the first modern day extinction event of the 21st century, caused by the Human introduced, invasive Emerald Ash Borer. So Watch American Ash disappearing right in your back yard, as it becomes extinct before all our very eyes! You see the Glutinous EAB is killing off the last of its "Untreated" food source before tree seedlings reach seeding age of 10 to germinate continued generations in the wild...Along with complete "Extent" of Fraxinus Ash which is the "Keystone" species of our Midwestern ecosystem producing most Green cover seen from space, 43 Arthropods unique to Ash trees will also become Co-extinct. Since Green Ash has lifespan of 300, and White Ash 600 yrs., many long time Squirrel families who took advantage of this Iconic towering American tree's unique "Opposite" branching for build strong sturdy nests with is one of those example invisible cords connecting to everything Muir spoke about. Now the American Fridge tree is being killed by EAB*.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> Lt has some of the best one liners on this forum. I always get a kick how splains it to the masses.


Splain me different, mister one liner, commenting on one liners.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

many of the smart weather people are saying they are seeing an identical weather pattern like we had in 92-93. 
If it continues, it could get very interesting in the next couple months.
Just think, Lonetree knew it was coming for several years now.:shock:


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

osageorange said:


> SCOTT CONCERTMAN aka lonesome?
> Welcome to the first modern day extinction event of the 21st century, caused by the Human introduced, invasive Emerald Ash Borer. So Watch American Ash disappearing right in your back yard, as it becomes extinct before all our very eyes! You see the Glutinous EAB is killing off the last of its "Untreated" food source before tree seedlings reach seeding age of 10 to germinate continued generations in the wild...Along with complete "Extent" of Fraxinus Ash which is the "Keystone" species of our Midwestern ecosystem producing most Green cover seen from space, 43 Arthropods unique to Ash trees will also become Co-extinct. Since Green Ash has lifespan of 300, and White Ash 600 yrs., many long time Squirrel families who took advantage of this Iconic towering American tree's unique "Opposite" branching for build strong sturdy nests with is one of those example invisible cords connecting to everything Muir spoke about. Now the American Fridge tree is being killed by EAB*.


Nope, this is me www.westernwildlifeecology.org

My name is Josh Leavitt. Please enlighten us as to you and yours O'somebody.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> many of the smart weather people are saying they are seeing an identical weather pattern like we had in 92-93.
> If it continues, it could get very interesting in the next couple months.
> Just think, Lonetree knew it was coming for several years now.:shock:


We had way more snow at this point in '93, I had the skis and snow shoes out by this time back then.

A heavy winter will only be the trigger to a crash. Remember, the deer rebounded very well from '83/'84, and '93 was heavy but nothing in comparison.

Edit: I had said that it looked like we were headed for a heavy winter some time ago, because that is what it looked like, that has changed, and the El Nino forecast has been down graded.


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

Think I'll pause for a beer. I can catch up with you boys in a few days, or months, nay........you'll still be pulling your britches down in a couple of years. I'll drop back then and replay your video for ya sooner than you'd like.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lone,
I've never claimed to be my daddy, chief. Like I've said its the interweb you know nothing of me personally. You know what I post on the interweb, nothing more.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

What the crap are you talking about osageorge? It sounds like your already drunk


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Muley73 said:


> Lone,
> I've never claimed to be my daddy, chief. Like I've said its the interweb you know nothing of me personally. You know what I post on the interweb, nothing more.


Answer the question, you made the insinuation, just like O'somebody.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> What the crap are you talking about osageorge? It sounds like your already drunk


That's why I want to know who he is, I want to get my hands on his stash, that's some good ****.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Lol


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Lone,
It's the interweb, this is banter. The real fight happens else where. Blogs and forums are mostly entertainment. Some get wrapped up and think they are more than that, I guess I'm just not one of them. Slow weekend so I'm willing to come out and play! Take care, I got the info I wanted.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

:mrgreen: What gives, everyone is cutting and running?

They'll be back after some one tells them what to think and say. Must be too late to call and get the talking points. 

Banter and entertainment? Yes, but when you can't support your banter and entertaining ideas, you cut and run. If you can't hack the casual stuff, you probably don't do to well in a real "fight" on a level playing field of ideas and results. 

I get it, when your banter and entertainment are responsible for 20 years of failures, and you want to pile on with some more of it, its probably better to not be seen in a public forum not being able to support your plans to destroy more wildlife and hunting. It probably is best to keep your head down, in the back room, under the desk...............


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> many of the smart weather people are saying they are seeing an identical weather pattern like we had in 92-93.
> If it continues, it could get very interesting in the next couple months.
> Just think, Lonetree knew it was coming for several years now.:shock:


Kind of reminds me of a book I read about the coming crash in the housing market. It was published back in 2001. Funny thing was that the crash left things higher than back in 2001 by a large margin, kind weird in that sense. I am going to predict another one by 2038 and a crash in the deer herds by 2024. Pretty easy to predict in the large scale, but more difficult to put a tight timeline on it, maybe that is teh case here. Just my casual observation since I started with teh last page and not interested enough to read the rest of the post; sounds like it has about petered out now.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

I would have kept going, but my silly wife, daughter and grandkids wanted to go see Christmas lights which is higher than hunting on their priority list and since it was higher on their priority list, it became higher on my priority list as well. I guess I could have asked my son-in-law to take over since he stayed home with the sick boy, but he doesn't even have hunting on his priority list, let alone at the top. I guess we live in a different world than some folks, I mean speak a different lanquage, I mean haven't made the necessary choices to be worthy of consideration when it comes to hunting. It's now 1:02 in the morning and since we've had our hot chocolate and watched two Christmas movies and I'm now done balancing both checkbooks, sleep is now my #1 priority. Maybe I'll get back this thread tomorrow, or not! After all, I have to try and find 3 or more UWC members to get to the RAC's Tues, Wed, Thurs 'cause I can't afford the time or the $200 or $300 in gas. And I have to edit our proposal. Good night/morning!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Huge29 said:


> Kind of reminds me of a book I read about the coming crash in the housing market. It was published back in 2001. Funny thing was that the crash left things higher than back in 2001 by a large margin, kind weird in that sense. I am going to predict another one by 2038 and a crash in the deer herds by 2024. Pretty easy to predict in the large scale, but more difficult to put a tight timeline on it, maybe that is teh case here. Just my casual observation since I started with teh last page and not interested enough to read the rest of the post; sounds like it has about petered out now.


We are already headed into the down turn, no broad strokes here. It is just a matter of whether we do a slow slide over the next 3 seasons, or see broader environmental/weather conditions that trigger a sharper crash.

I will be even more specific, as far as areas and species for anyone that wants to call BS.

Whiskey mountain bighorn sheep: Currently in a 2 year upswing. THis has not been seen in 20 years. This trend will reverse this spring, and they start another decline, possibly catastrophic.

Monte Cristo: This area has also been increasing for several years now, this will reverse.

Willard goats: Will decrease, not because of tags or transplants, they will be dead on the ground. The numbers dieing being very dependent on where the snow puts them.

Chalk creek: Same thing

Long Divide between Boxelder and Cache county: Will continue to decline even further.

Lander area of Wyoming: Will continue to see declines after kicking off this trend with 30%-70% declines a few years ago.

And I have not even got into antelope , etc. etc. etc.

Anyone still want to make the 400,000 deer claim?

I'm not the DWR and SFW a few years ago seeing things improving, and deciding to move on what looked like sustainable increases. I don't day trade like that. I'm calling it before it happens, which takes an understanding of what is actually going, something SFW and the DWR have not had for 20 years.

I said 4 years ago, on this board, when SFW said we would see 400,000 deer by now, that we would not, and we have not.

Everyone else petered out, no staying power with these guys. Trying to keep houses of cards up in a hurricane will wear you out.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Just got off the phone with a researcher in Argentina, lets upgrade, or rather downgrade the fate of the Whiskey Mountain bighorn sheep herd. Seems the only debate is whether they will succumb to white muscle disease, or pneumonia. One may lead to the other. These are house odds, doesn't get much better, or rather worse.


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