# terrible customer service



## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

I recently called winchester in order to obtain some info so i could reload some of my own shells and save me some money since the particular shells like happen to be the winchester supremes accubonds for my 30.06. However when i talked to them they were very confrontational the guy actually said and this is a quote "you will never be able to do what we do! You will never be able to duplicate our load!" I was completely taken back. i really wasnt planning on exactly duplicate because most companies get their powder as a special blend so an exact duplicate is not possible. however most companies will say a particular kind powder is close and will give the info in order to get a fairly close load that you can test on your own. But this was definatly not the case he went on to "educate me on how handloaders can come close to their quality" I was furious after i got off the phone infact angry enough that i don't know if i will ever buy winchesters ammunition again. Am i wrong to be so angery? Was he out of line or am i just being overly sensitive? If this happened to you would ever use their ammo again?


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Poor customer service should never be tolerated. 

In answer to your last question I have yet to find a better factory load then my own hand loads.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Should have got a hold of his stupiedvisor.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

wow that bad they they treated you like that. I have never had a proublom with them.Same with my buddy. But you should have asked for a his superviser.Sorry hope you load your up better then theres.


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## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

fortunatly for me my very good friend has a cronograph that i can use that will help me a ton. i bought a 06' loading manual and would like to get the velocity at muzzle to 2750 however in the manuel i bought none of the recipies get that speed with out a compressed load with a 180 nosler accubond.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

question how many different types of powder are you looking at? I have hard time seeing that you cannot find a load to get the velocity that you want. I haven't looked at a manual just yet but I will to full fill my curiosity about it.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

shootemup said:


> i bought a 06' loading manual and would like to get the velocity at muzzle to 2750 however in the manuel i bought none of the recipies get that speed with out a compressed load with a 180 nosler accubond.


And you probably won't be able to duplicate their load. Period. The information you got obviously wasn't what you wanted to hear, but it was honest. Now, don't get you panties in a wad, I'm not trying to say that you can't reload some great ammunition. You *can* make ammo that is tailored to your gun, and specifically suited to it's chamber. They, (the factory boys), *can't* do that. A good handloader can produce ammo that is more accurate than factory ammo. But you don't have the technology to duplicate their load. There are many factors involved besides just types of powders.

Fishrmn


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

found this for you info on the accubond bullet
http://noslerreloading.com/phpBB2/index.php

also here is some testing done by others
http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=12002

from what I read you can use the information for a partition for an accubond


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## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

Fishrmn said:


> shootemup said:
> 
> 
> > i bought a 06' loading manual and would like to get the velocity at muzzle to 2750 however in the manuel i bought none of the recipies get that speed with out a compressed load with a 180 nosler accubond.
> ...


Fishrmn i knew going into it that i wouldnt be able to duplicate the load as my post said before if you read it carefully you will see i do know that they get their powder as a special blend. I know this because i reload shotgun shells and have spoken with kent who was very great they gave all kinds of helpful data they gave suggestions on power and wads to use in place for theirs and they also gave me a number to call in order to get wads that were close to theirs. However when they told me i couldnt perfectly duplicate theirs they said "we are very glad that you have enjoyed our loads and are flattered that you want to duplicate them on your own however you wont be able to but the following data should help you get something very close to ours." and they guy i talked to emailed me the info. I will always say good things about kent after dealing with them. i will always suggest people give their loads a try if they dont reload.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

here is one from nosler 
http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=15&b=30cal&s=137


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## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

thanks sage i apprecate all the help. with all your help i must say i would rank your help up there with kent.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Here's an even better idea. Buy yourself some Barnes TSXs, 150 grain bullets will out penetrate the Accubonds, and go a whole lot faster. In my experience, they will be more accurate as well. And you can get some great customer service from the local boys as well.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

Winchester/Olin is interested in selling you factory ammo and it does not benefit them much financially when you reload. It has been this way from time immemorial. In fact you need to realize that they really only sell brass and primers as components. When Winchester/Olin stopped selling their cannister powder, they stopped issuing a metallic reloading manual as well. That should tell you something major about them right there. You will also notice there is no Remington or Federal metallic reloading manual either (_Remington used to be connected to Dupont/IMR powder and issue one, but no more_). Call them and the answer you get will be a variation on the Winchester theme, perhaps a bit more tactful, maybe not, depending on the rep and how he/she feels about your naivety on that particular day. If you would have had a question about their factory ammo things would have been different.

Winchester Accubond bullets are made by Nosler/Combined Technologies - Nosler HAS a reloading manual (#6). http://www.nosler.com

Winchester/Olin manufactured powders are now marketed by Hodgdon - Hodgdon HAS a reloading manual which is also available online or in book form http://www.hodgdon.com or http://www.wwpowder.com

As has been mentioned in posts by Fishrmn _et al_ you can use the resources available from companies that are geared to selling reloading components and make an excellent 180-gr Accubond load yourself. Be aware that it has been my experience that factory 30-06 loads don't chronograph to factory velocity spec (in this case 2750 fps) in your real-world rifle, so don't sweat it, but 2700 fps can be obtained (and may be similar to what the Winchester/Accubond clocks in your gun). If you feel a real Winchester connection you can use their primers and cases and even W-760 powder if you want. Or be like the rest of use and use whatever primer, case, and powder we think is best. After all, the goal is a 180 Accubond at around 2700 fps with good hunting accuracy. I happened to have achieved that in my '06 with R-P cases, CCI 200 primers and Alliant powder with a 180 Nosler Partition, but you get the point.

BTW - as you can see, a chronograph is a real handloader's friend.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I am so fed up with guys like that. I'll boycott them with you, but the only drawback is that for handloads you rarely find any brass but Winchester brass for sale. So in a sense you will still be supporting them, but at least you wouldnt be forking out the big bucks for their "special" blend of crappy powder.

Make your own bullets. Have fun making them. Experiment with different powders and primers and see what shoots best out of YOUR gun. Just because it shoots well out of mine, doesnt mean it will shoot as well out of yours.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*Really......!*

I own a Ruger M77 22-250 that is a tack driver with Federal ammunition in the 55 grain spire point. I pulled one apart and found out that it used spherical powder so I got searching around and narrowed it down to three powders that had the same size balls. The charge weight is 34.5 grains.

In the lab that I am at we have a Inferred spectrometer so I compared the powder against what I had determined to be the same in size and appropriate burn rate and BINGO the peaks and valleys all matched and it turned out to be H380. Although I had pretty much determined what powder it was from the sphere size. I now have the exact load that my rifle loves and all through deductive reasoning Watson, I mean fisherman&#8230;&#8230; Big


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Loke said:


> Here's an even better idea. Buy yourself some Barnes TSXs, 150 grain bullets will out penetrate the Accubonds, and go a whole lot faster. In my experience, they will be more accurate as well. And you can get some great customer service from the local boys as well.


Loke,

Having known most of the local boys for sometime now, I am also aware of some of the problems with misaligned centering pins and such, I can tell you that I have only one gun in my arsenal that digest the bullet brand you mentioned with anything I would call accurate results; and it happens to be a 300 win mag that is respectable with the 180 grain weight.

My small bores (.224) absolutely refuse to group the manufacture you refer too with anything even close to acceptable. If you are talking penetration then I would agree, but when you are talking accuracy and maximum energy transfer, then they are not even in the ball game with your assessment in my humble opinion.

I have always found that when I am looking for accuracy and consistency, Sierra and Speer are tough to beat and have done everything I have asked of them and more. What it all boils down to is what works for you and sticking to it&#8230;&#8230;Big


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Bigbr, 
I, on the other hand, have had spectacular results with the Barnes X bullets in all of its varieties. My 223 loves their 50 grain VLCs, I have two 270s that shoot the 130 TSX into one hole groups with the same load. And the most consistent load in my 300 Win is the 165 XLC. That particular 300 won't shoot any other bullet well, and I have tried them all. I haven't tried their bullets in my 243 yet, it shoots V-Maxs so well that I haven't tried anything else.


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## Artoxx (Nov 12, 2008)

For what it is worth, back when I was reloading in the 500 rounds a month or more range, they came out with the Heavy Magnum loads that turned your .300 win into a .300 Ultra. And the equivalent with other caliber sizes.
I talked to one of the reps and he told me that they get those speeds out of their ammo by using a special load process that basically uses an almost liquid form of powder that cures into a solid rocket booster for all intents. Not exactly sure how that burns well from the wrong end but that is what he told me.

He also told me that if I wanted to come as close as possible to duplicating that performance, then Vihta Vourhi Powder was the best powder available to the handloader for heating up your loads without blowing the barrel off the gun.
Seems like the load he suggested was about 200 fps faster than a standard max load with the powder I was using at the time, but about 100 fps slower than the heavy mag. factory load.

My best accuracy was in the one inch range so I went back to the powder I was using before, which was in the QUARTER inch range.
I figured it didn't matter how fast I MISSED a target.
200 fps slower, but 3/4" more accurate. :mrgreen:


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