# Koala vs Cougar



## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I wonder if all the liberals in Hollyweird will go after P-22 like they did Walter Palmer. I mean, Koalas in a zoo should not have to worry about those dangerous mountain lions!!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fa...d-los-angeles-zoo-koala/ar-AAgDgSC?li=BBnbcA1


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

If you have followed the cat situation in CA it is bizarre, and related to my current field of work. As you can see P-22 is not in the best of shape. They have bobcats with no ears, 3 legs, and all sorts of other issues. Lions showing up in places they normally don't, going after pets, etc. Some of which sounds all too familiar if you were on the front in the '90s. 

They have made some connections to poison being put out for rodents being associated with some of this. So not only does the prey base get reduced, what is left is poisoned. There has been all kinds of ripple effects through the ecosystem. This would certainly look to be another possible case of that. 

That is part of the reason P-22 has a collar, there has been increased monitoring of lions and bobcats because of a lot of what has been observed going on with them the last few years. 

I'm sure Hollywood has no clue. It is allot of these same people whose properties are adjacent to wild areas that are a part of the problems I mentioned above. Some of this is being driven by the drought and fires that have brought more rodents into outlying suburban areas seeking refuge.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

That lion looks a bit skinny. Poor cat was starving.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Must be bad deer weather in California. 

No cougar hunting just might be a factor also. 

Probably just pesticides though.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Iron Bear said:


> Must be bad deer weather in California.
> 
> No cougar hunting just might be a factor also.
> 
> Probably just pesticides though.


They kill as many lions now, as they did when they had a hunting season. Which is the real fallacy of the PETA anti lion hunting crowd. Hunters don't get to harvest, so Wildlife services and CA F&G have to do all the killing. Which is why lion numbers remained stable after hunting stopped, and remained stable until just a few years ago, when they began to sharply decline.

In the last few years lion and bobcat numbers have plummeted in CA. You never cease to amaze me. Maybe you can explain why after 20 years of not having a lion season, their numbers have collapsed?

The scarier part of no lion hunting in CA is how they pulled it off. It was all a matter of how they felt about it, nothing to back up their claims, no science whats so ever. Just a bunch of people managing wildlife by the seat of their pants and the whimsical feelings in their hearts.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

You guys alway seem to fail to understand it not just the number of cougar you have that's important. One cougar is not a lot to 10,000 deer but it's a lot to 100. 

So who cares if the cat numbers are down in California. If the deer numbers are down also it makes sense to me.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Iron Bear said:


> You guys alway seem to fail to understand it not just the number of cougar you have that's important. One cougar is not a lot to 10,000 deer but it's a lot to 100.
> 
> So who cares if the cat numbers are down in California. If the deer numbers are down also it makes sense to me.


I'm sure lots if things make sense to you. But can you explain to us why they are the way they are? If the lion numbers are down, after being stable for a long time, then we should see a corresponding rise in deer by your understanding of the world, right?

And if you are saying lion numbers are down because deer numbers are down, then explain to us why deer numbers went down, because of stable lion numbers? If lions drive deer numbers, and the lion population had been stable, then what caused your hypothetical drop in deer numbers, that supposedly is driving these lion declines?

Like I tell some other people, show me the deer?


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Anyone want to make a fools bet as to whether P-22 had been poisoned?


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

We don't know that lion numbers have been stable. 

We don't know how many lions we have now forget knowing how many cougar we had back when.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Iron Bear said:


> We don't know that lion numbers have been stable.
> 
> We don't know how many lions we have now forget knowing how many cougar we had back when.


We are talking about CA lions in this case, I don't remember a story about Hogle zoo. CA F&G had stated the lion population was abundant and stable, until the decline we see right now, and over the past few years, in SoCal.

There is another leading cause of CA Lion mortality as well.

Want to take that bet? We can move on to Utah lions after that.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I'm not being paid per word. 

So you're right it's pesticides.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

No, you are right.....

_"Tests conducted by the California Animal Health and Food Safety Lab at UC Davis showed diphacinone and chlorophacinone in P-22's blood, two first-generation anti-coagulant compounds. Recent legislation banned the retail sale of second-generation anti-coagulant rodenticides as of July 1, but does not impact the sale of diphacinone or chlorophacinone." _

http://www.nps.gov/samo/learn/news/gp-lion-exposed-to-poison.htm

Interesting side note, this lab refused to conduct tests for me. It came down to the specific substance I wanted them to look for. It is made by their largest donor.

In all seriousness Iron Bear, you should keep trying. It is the only way you are ever going to figure it out. If you back down that easy every time, it is not the opposing view that "wins" it is your dogma that "loses". You can't just say it's lions, and the ratio of deer to lions. That's Option 2 and buck to doe ratios, it is not relevant. There is way more going on out there.


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## Badin (Dec 18, 2015)

I heard that SoCal lions have found that heterosexual relationships are no longer fashionable, which has resulted in a lack of population recruitment. Same could be true of SoCal deer. May be this is why both populations are dropping. More tax funded research needed to see if these rumors have any basis in fact.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I don't know about lions, but when you have four points standing around while two points are doing the breeding, something is wrong.

We don't need any tax funded research to figure out why we don't have deer or deer tags though. The problem is the same as with those four points, _something_ is missing......


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## Lobowatcher (Nov 25, 2014)

Lonetree said:


> They kill as many lions now, as they did when they had a hunting season. Which is the real fallacy of the PETA anti lion hunting crowd. Hunters don't get to harvest, so Wildlife services and CA F&G have to do all the killing. Which is why lion numbers remained stable after hunting stopped, and remained stable until just a few years ago, when they began to sharply decline.
> 
> In the last few years* lion and bobcat numbers have plummeted in CA*. You never cease to amaze me. Maybe you can explain why after 20 years of not having a lion season, their numbers have collapsed?
> 
> The scarier part of no lion hunting in CA is how they pulled it off.* It was all a matter of how they felt about it, nothing to back up their claims, no science whats so ever. Just a bunch of people managing wildlife by the seat of their pants and the whimsical feelings in their hearts*.


Pretty much how California manages all their wildlife, with little to no science involved. When you say the cat numbers have *"plummeted"*, what kind of declines are you referring to, and what actual numbers are you talking about? Curious, as I haven't found any hard facts or numbers to support this, other than depredation permits that have increased by a fair amount over the years. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Lobowatcher said:


> Pretty much how California manages all their wildlife, with little to no science involved. When you say the cat numbers have *"plummeted"*, what kind of declines are you referring to, and what actual numbers are you talking about? Curious, as I haven't found any hard facts or numbers to support this, other than depredation permits that have increased by a fair amount over the years. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.


California manages their wildlife, the same way the UDWR does. One exception, you can finds tons of science on many topics that were conducted in CA. To be fair it is a much bigger state with more resources, but the volume of scientific work that has come out of Utah is tiny in comparison to any other state, with maybe the exception of NV. If you go through allot of scientific literature, you don't find much coming from Utah, and you don't find much of it used in the reference material, at least not in the last 20 years.....

As for CA lions, you can read through the reference material I have already posted, That material has other links in it as well. They are not collaring, recapturing, drawing blood, and otherwise studying bobcats and lions for fun. I'm a little more focused on Utah wildlife right now, as should some other people. This is just a very good example of what is going on all over the place.


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