# Point creep



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

So I was looking at the big game draw odds website and the Beaver unit which is one of the units I'm looking into doing my LE elk hunt on in the future has its max points increase by 1 point every single year in the recent past.

http://www.biggamedrawodds.com/big.game.draw.odds.utah.resident.rifle.elk.beaver.early.html

After the bonus point I purchased this year I have 18 points so I thought that I would be getting close to top tier units like this one and Monroe, Pahvant, etc.. But if max points increases by one point every year it could easily stay just out of my grasp for as long as it continues to do so. Will I ever catch up or am I better off just putting in for one of the second-tier units I am already ahead of the curve on? I know I could still have a pretty awesome hunt on Manti, Panguitch or Dutton.

How does this bode for 12 year old kids just starting to acquire points? Are LE hunts starting to look more like OIL hunts and OIL hunts are starting to look more like FFC (fat effing chance) hunts?


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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

It gets scary when you look at the massive number of people coming in right behind you. You might be one of 8 people with 10 points, but there are 300+ people with 4 points!
I don't see how a young person will ever be able to draw, other than pure luck.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

LanceS4803 said:


> It gets scary when you look at the massive number of people coming in right behind you. You might be one of 8 people with 10 points, but there are 300+ people with 4 points!
> I don't see how a young person will ever be able to draw, other than pure luck.


Where is the website that shows you this info?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Monroe has also increased on points year after year. The early hunt is a 1 in. 5 chance with 19 points , good luck everyone.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Monroe has also increased on points year after year. The early hunt is a 1 in. 5 chance with 19 points , good luck everyone.


we are all gonna need it!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> How does this bode for 12 year old kids just starting to acquire points? Are LE hunts starting to look more like OIL hunts and OIL hunts are starting to look more like FFC (fat effing chance) hunts?


Its great for kids, they get to ride the coatails of ole grandpa when he draws.

We used to have a certain amount of attrition where old guys who couldn't physically hunt, or simple didnt care to hunt would give up. It allowed for quicker clearing out of the upper tiers... but now that we have the mentor program, people will stay in it until they die, letting a grandkid do the hunting.

Somewhere in the near future I predict a push to allow points to become generational, that grandpa's points can be inherited by a family member.

-DallanC


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

colorcountrygunner said:


> LanceS4803 said:
> 
> 
> > It gets scary when you look at the massive number of people coming in right behind you. You might be one of 8 people with 10 points, but there are 300+ people with 4 points!
> ...


Wildlife.utah.gov shows it as well as biggamedrawodds.com big games is a little more organized but may not be as accurate as the dwr site


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

There should be a cap on the maximum number of points. Say 25. There will come a point in time when every tag given to the highest point holders will go to people who are too old to use them....


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Soon people wont die. Wait till old / terminal people just go get a new body. Crazy science fiction is nearly here:

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/health/2015/03/04/head-transplant-italian-neurosurgeon/24334365/

-DallanC


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Or we can start a multi year phase out of all points and just go with a straight luck of the draw.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Last Year 10,095 people put in for points and 2529 people that put in for points have 10 points or more.

42,013 put in for draws for 2607 permits.

49,501 people are currently acquiring points for ~2500 tags a year.

I would say around 80% of the people put in for Rifle.

Around 50% of the state puts in for Wasatch E, San Juan E, Book Cliffs BCS E, Manti E, Pahvant E, Southwest Desert E, and Monroe E.

It is no different than any other state that has a draw.

You can either wait your turn, get lucky, or select a unit where you can get a good bull, but not an amazing bull.

Utah could do some things to square the draw odds.

August - Short Range Only

September- Archery Only

October Rifle - Early

November Rifle - Late

December Muzzy

Management 2 points or less - In units that the LE is going on.

Rather than killing more cows to get the bull/cow ratio within the unit objectives let hunters kill more management bulls to get to the objectives. Longer seasons would result in less overall pressure.

I could probably go on and rant about the perfect system for me, but odds are someone would disagree even though I find it logical.

Anyway

LE Deer is pretty well already at a Once in a Lifetime Status.

In 2014 3,989 people put in for points with only 600 people with 10 points or more.

In 2014 33415 put in for the drawing of 1164 permits. And of those 3382 had ten points or more. You still have 34022 people that will keep acquiring points to draw ~1,000 tags a year.

Also, the draw odds site has 2013 numbers. This is the link to the DNR/DWR draw odds for 2014 http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in...me/1468-big-game-statistics-drawing-odds.html

Now, the draw is locked. I am hopeful that no one will point creep on my unit and give me a bonus tag for the year. If not the unit I chose has a 1:3.4 draw.

Let it ride Paunsaugunt Muzzy.:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

wileywapati said:


> Or we can start a multi year phase out of all points and just go with a straight luck of the draw.


It is basically already that. It really wouldn't change things over than a few more people get lucky.

The problem is a lot of people applying for a limited number of permits.

The points just allow the DNR/DWR to make money on those who do not have time for the hunt or do not have the cash flow at the moment for the hunt.

Hope is a dangerous thing


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Colorcountry,

Last year I did the math, and with 16 points I was still 25+ years away from getting into the bonus point pool for the San Juan early rifle. It was a sobering thought. Hunted muzzy deer down there in 2002 and always have wanted to return for elk.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

1) Require money at the time you apply. If you are serious you'll find the way. Shorten draw dates so people get money within 60 days if they don't draw. This ought to also reduce the number of mother in laws who find themselves in the draw. 

2) Eliminate tag turn back option except for death or legit emergency. Pet peeve. I drew but can't find anything during scouting. Man up and hunt!!

3) For elk/deer if you don't draw LE you get either general season tag or you pay for the general season tag. 

4) If you have wildlife violations you lose opportunity for LE tags.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

TS30 said:


> Colorcountry,
> 
> Last year I did the math, and with 16 points I was still 25+ years away from getting into the bonus point pool for the San Juan early rifle. It was a sobering thought. Hunted muzzy deer down there in 2002 and always have wanted to return for elk.


Wow! I guess I can forget all about the San Juan! Did you look into any of the other top-tier units? Hells bells. Mt. Dutton here I come!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Wow! I guess I can forget all about the San Juan! Did you look into any of the other top-tier units? Hells bells. Mt. Dutton here I come!


Yes, and it wasn't pretty. I figured if I wanted to hunt soon, muzzy or late hunts for the premium units or drop to the next tier and do an early rifle. Still great units and great bulls to be had around.

Then I applied for San Juan early again!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I learned a long time ago one must be wise when choosing hunts,
and decide rather to hunt LE often, or hold out many years for 1 permit..
I went the often route....

Since the beging of the bonus point era, I/ve personaly had,
2 LE elk permits, Plus I drew the Bookcliff elk tag the year before points started.
3 total--------And another one coming.

2 LE antelope permit---Should draw this one again this year..

3 LE deer permits...

And my moose tag last year..

Thats 8 LE deer/elk/antelope permits since 1993---most of which were archery.
plus the moose makes 9 LE OIAL big game tags....

I've also drawn 3 mountain lion and 3 bears tags in the same time frame.....

It's all about making choices...:grin:....and how often you want to hunt LE tags.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

****, Goofy Elk!! Way to go! Although frustrating to hear of your success in drawing those tags, it's good to see someone figuring out the way to beat the odds. Keep it up. I hope I get my LE ML Elk this year!


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> I learned a long time ago one must be wise when choosing hunts,
> and decide rather to hunt LE often, or hold out many years for 1 permit..
> I went the often route....
> 
> ...


So...you've managed to draw 6 LE Big Game tags in 22 years (not counting the Antelope) in a system that only allows you to get one point per species per year? That's an average drawing period of 3.66 years. How does that work with a 5 year waiting period stuffed in between? All the Elk units I've looked at are 6-8 points on average for rifle hunts, and those in that range are just getting lucky.

I know the system is supposed to be random but stop in to any DWR ran facility and see just how many of their employees have animals on the walls of their offices...no these are not the confiscated mounts either. I'm not familiar with the points for Archery vs. Rifle but have to wonder...who is it you know at the DWR? :shock:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

KineKilla said:


> I know the system is supposed to be random but stop in to any DWR ran facility and see just how many of their employees have animals on the walls of their offices...no these are not the confiscated mounts either. I'm not familiar with the points for Archery vs. Rifle but have to wonder...who is it you know at the DWR? :shock:


HA! Anyone remember the first 3 or 4 years of the draw when they first went to bonus points? A certain high level member of the DWR drew pretty much all the OILs in those first couple years.

Too bad they wont publish the names of those who draw, it gave alot of oversight to the process, with certain names repeatedly drawing over and over and over again.

-DallanC


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

KineKilla said:


> So...you've managed to draw 6 LE Big Game tags in 22 years (not counting the Antelope) in a system that only allows you to get one point per species per year? That's an average drawing period of 3.66 years. How does that work with a 5 year waiting period stuffed in between? All the Elk units I've looked at are 6-8 points on average for rifle hunts, and those in that range are just getting lucky.
> 
> I know the system is supposed to be random but stop in to any DWR ran facility and see just how many of their employees have animals on the walls of their offices...no these are not the confiscated mounts either. I'm not familiar with the points for Archery vs. Rifle but have to wonder...who is it you know at the DWR? :shock:


The 5 year waiting period only applies to LE elk. LE antelope and LE deer only have a 2 year waiting period. (Page 17 of the 2015 Big Game Application Guidebook)


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> So...you've managed to draw 6 LE Big Game tags in 22 years (not counting the Antelope) in a system that only allows you to get one point per species per year? That's an average drawing period of 3.66 years. How does that work with a 5 year waiting period stuffed in between? All the Elk units I've looked at are 6-8 points on average for rifle hunts, and those in that range are just getting lucky.
> 
> I know the system is supposed to be random but stop in to any DWR ran facility and see just how many of their employees have animals on the walls of their offices...no these are not the confiscated mounts either. I'm not familiar with the points for Archery vs. Rifle but have to wonder...who is it you know at the DWR? :shock:


The answer to that question is using archery tackle. If you want to hunt often, quit worrying about drawing the most popular units with your rifle and be willing to hunt less desired units with a bow.

I have taken a slightly different approach, I hunt deer in Wyoming and Colorado every 2-3 years which provides me with an experience similar to most LE units in the state.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> So...you've managed to draw 6 LE Big Game tags in 22 years (not counting the Antelope) in a system that only allows you to get one point per species per year? :shock:


No,Kiila
In what amounts to the last 23 years,
I've drawn 8 LE. 1 OIAL, 3 LE lion, and 3 LE bear permits in Utah= 15 total.

Quite certain we have 3 more LE archery antelope tags coming this year
in the 2015 draw ..

Just say'in ,, It can be done,,. I've done it.....:!:.........

This dosn't even count my wife and kids...OR

The Dozen LE turkey permits we've filled...

OR the HUGE number of LE tags I've guided over the last 25 years....8).;-)


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## LanceS4803 (Mar 5, 2014)

DallanC said:


> Too bad they wont publish the names of those who draw, it gave alot of oversight to the process, with certain names repeatedly drawing over and over and over again.


This should be available with a FOIA request. (Freedom of Information Act)

A written request to DWR, under the state applicable FOIA, requesting the names, by year, of OIAL tags.


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## toppin (Apr 2, 2008)

If you want a website to get great information on draw odds, check out www.hunterstrailhead.com. They charge you $24.99 for a year membership (no, I don't have any affiliation with them), but it is the best $24.99 I spend. I apply for several states and don't have time to spend hours filtering through division webpages trying to find draw odds. I have also found that a lot of draw odds posted in magazines are not correct. With this website, you can see the actual number of people that applied in each bonus point pool and where you stand. The time it saves me in making my decisions is well worth the small fee.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> No,Kiila
> In what amounts to the last 23 years,
> I've drawn 8 LE. 1 OIAL, 3 LE lion, and 3 LE bear permits in Utah= 15 total.
> 
> ...


Will there be a subscription site or book available soon on how to do this?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> Will there be a subscription site or book available soon on how to do this?


"How to draw Utah LE tags and make friends when you're as badass as me. " by Mr. Ima Knowitall.


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

Want to see point creep stop? Get the state to require the money up front like they use to. That way only those who really want to hunt will out in. No more of the person who wants to hunt putting in for the rest of their family members who really don't care.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

cklspencer said:


> Want to see point creep stop? Get the state to require the money up front like they use to. That way only those who really want to hunt will out in. No more of the person who wants to hunt putting in for the rest of their family members who really don't care.


I agree with you but it won't stop point creep, but it will slow it down for a while.

Just take a look at Colorado. They require payment upfront and they even have point creep. But right now it may of topped out as far as the units that I have looked at.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

OR WYOMING !!!!
I honestly cant beliveve how many guys went the special, $1,071.00 up front fees this year!!!!!
It was crazy in last weeks draw..
The Unit I put in for went from 1 in 1.5 to 1 in 9 odds.......

And for Utah requiring fees up front ( like they did years ago ) ,?
Never going to happen unless Utahs gambling laws change..


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

1) Require money at the time you apply. If you are serious you'll find the way. Shorten draw dates so people get money within 60 days if they don't draw. This ought to also reduce the number of mother in laws who find themselves in the draw. 

2) Eliminate tag turn back option except for death or legit emergency. Pet peeve. I drew but can't find anything during scouting. Man up and hunt!!

3) For elk/deer if you don't draw LE you get either general season tag or you pay for the general season tag. 

4) If you have wildlife violations you lose opportunity for LE tags.

NEW 5) Eliminate group applications which allow someone to stockpile points under the wife. (Just read that somewhere)


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

cklspencer said:


> Want to see point creep stop? Get the state to require the money up front like they use to. That way only those who really want to hunt will out in. No more of the person who wants to hunt putting in for the rest of their family members who really don't care.


Great! That'll help weed out all the wannabes! And if we really want to bring the odds down, let's quadruple the price of the permits, eliminate the mentor and trial permit programs, no more group applications, allow only one species per year, no more buying points, make LE elk, deer, and pronghorn OIL permits, and quadruple the number of LE hunts! That'll show those wannabes who's boss! 

Edited: Dukes may have liked this post between edits when all I had was the first sentence. I'm not sure if he likes the full version or not. It's tongue-in-cheek, 'cause I don't want anyone who loves hunting eliminated solely based on their financial priorities 'cause that often isn't their doing. (I guess he unliked it!)


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Maybe the draw should be like Wheel Of Fortune where you have the ability to draw a bankrupt. You would then lose all of your points and start over. The only real solution to point creep is more tags. This works great if there are more animals to go along with them. Any other solution pretty much reduces the pool by screwing somebody somehow.----SS


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

SS is on to something. Then, you could require anyone that draws the tag to say, "I'd like to solve the puzzle" before pulling the trigger.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> 1) Require money at the time you apply. If you are serious you'll find the way. Shorten draw dates so people get money within 60 days if they don't draw. This ought to also reduce the number of mother in laws who find themselves in the draw.
> 
> 2) Eliminate tag turn back option except for death or legit emergency. Pet peeve. I drew but can't find anything during scouting. Man up and hunt!!
> 
> ...


1)Requiring money upfront would have a big effect on the OIL drawing, because Utah has a high resident price on the OIL tags. I also think LE entries for deer would go up. It's a lot easier to throw $80 in a draw than it is $285.
2) I agree
3) I like it
4) It should depend on severity. Poaching definitely. 
5) I don't think this is an issue, because they are added and halved. 30 points between the two would only be fifteen points a piece .


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> 1) Require money at the time you apply. If you are serious you'll find the way. Shorten draw dates so people get money within 60 days if they don't draw. This ought to also reduce the number of mother in laws who find themselves in the draw.


I've been on that soap box for YEARS now. I just dropped $1000 on wyoming permit apps... I dont understand why Utah wont go back to it. Oh yea, its because everyone puts in their mom, wife, grandparents for points so they can average with them after they draw,



> 2) Eliminate tag turn back option except for death or legit emergency. Pet peeve. I drew but can't find anything during scouting. Man up and hunt!!


I used to care more about that, but in the end the tags are re-issued so while it doesnt clear out the top tier as quick, it is pulling people out of the lower tiers.



> 4) If you have wildlife violations you lose opportunity for LE tags.


Now thats a good great idea.



> NEW 5) Eliminate group applications which allow someone to stockpile points under the wife. (Just read that somewhere)


I have two neighbors within 3 houses of me with wives who are at max points for LE elk... TWO within 3 houses.

-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I hope everyone realizes that the people who make the rules have no incentive to eliminate point creep. The great point race equals mega dollars. We talk about wives saving points as a bad thing, those collecting the money just see increased sales. Eliminate points and have a random draw and see how many wives are out of the equation immediately.------SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Springville Shooter said:


> I hope everyone realizes that the people who make the rules have no incentive to eliminate point creep. The great point race equals mega dollars. We talk about wives saving points as a bad thing, those collecting the money just see increased sales. Eliminate points and have a random draw and see how many wives are out of the equation immediately.------SS


With the mentoring program going on I would wager that all the wives, and grand parents will still be in the draw.

They need to hurt them in the pocket book before they don't put in for the draw.

I like the idea where you limit the turn backs to medical, military, or physical problems instead of "I don't like what I saw while scouting" excuses. And on the tags that are turned back in make them have a signed form by a doctor or a copy of their military orders.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

What about simply increasing archery tags that have a lower success rate and get more people trough faster. Obviously they know it's an issue, for deer we now have LE deer, LE management deer, and now GS LE late hunts. What if for elk, deer, and even OIL we have out archery tags for each of those hunts?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Golf......golf is the answer. More people need to golf instead of hunting. Fly fishing on the Lower Provo is another great alternative.-------SS


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> Golf......golf is the answer. More people need to golf instead of hunting. Fly fishing on the Lower Provo is another great alternative.-------SS


Good...just great! There goes my Saturday morning solitude on my favorite secret river.

Point creep....it sucks. Not sure there is a good option to fix it.


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## allent (May 6, 2015)

I'm not real clear on how point creep works but after 20 points for moose. It seams as if there is always as many max point holders as the prior year. Is this my year. DWR says yes! Oh wait they said that the last several years.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Change season dates, move rifle and muzzy hunts to later in Oct and Nov for LE elk. Now the incentive to draw a 'get a big bull give me tag' is gone.

Take point system away entirely and go straight draw with more permits available with fewer hunts. You don't need an early and late season for LE elk.

I still have a better chance of drawing UT LE elk than I do my own home state even with "point creep".


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

High Desert Elk said:


> Change season dates, move rifle and muzzy hunts to later in Oct and Nov for LE elk. Now the incentive to draw a 'get a big bull give me tag' is gone.
> 
> Take point system away entirely and go straight draw with more permits available with fewer hunts. You don't need an early and late season for LE elk.
> 
> I still have a better chance of drawing UT LE elk than I do my own home state even with "point creep".


I agree, there is no reason in the world rifle should be during the rut.

Archery during the rut gives them the best chance at a low success hunt.

I like Muzzy in the snow. December would be fun.

I like the points system.

It is a 50/50 split and it gives you a reason to keep applying year after year.

Pure Lottery will only give you 5 extra chances on some of the units, because the age objective is so high.

5 extra chances doesn't mean much when there are 2000 people applying for the same tags.

The only problem with the system is that there are too many people applying for the limited number of tags and not the system it's self.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

allent said:


> I'm not real clear on how point creep works but after 20 points for moose. It seams as if there is always as many max point holders as the prior year. Is this my year. DWR says yes! Oh wait they said that the last several years.


Yes, your looking good .....

I'd put it at 95% chance of getting your moose permit this year.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I like the points system.
> 
> It is a 50/50 split and it gives you a reason to keep applying year after year.
> 
> Pure Lottery will only give you 5 extra chances on some of the units, because the age objective is so high.


yep - UT's point system is about the only one that actually makes sense. You still have a chance to draw with little to no points, and like I said, even a better chance for me than in my own home state.

The only way to get rid of point creep is to have no points at all...


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

If your number of points is greater than your age.........you might be a point creep.

If you collect points in states that you have never been to......you might be a point creep.

If you take advantage of the UT general deer point loophole.....you might be a point creep.

If you have ever talked someone into 'sharing points'........you might be a point creep.

If you put every shirttail relative you have in for the draw......you might be a point creep. 

If you have to use an app to keep track of your points.....you might be a point creep.

If you visit biggamedrawodds more than 5 times per year.....you might be a point creep.

If you have ever created a draw odds spreadsheet.......you might be a point creep.

If you are the supreme authority regarding point creep......you are most likely a Goofy Elk.

If you are not a point creep.....you probably don't hunt a whole lot.----------SS


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Springville Shooter said:


> If your number of points is greater than your age.........you might be a point creep.
> 
> If you collect points in states that you have never been to......you might be a point creep.
> 
> ...


...And, if you even understand what the heck point creep even is - you might be a point creep.


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

And If you area reading this, then you might be a point creep too!! Oh...wait, That's me too!! Ha Ha! When will the cards get hit??


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

If you're a point creep do you have to be put on any sort of registry?


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Springville Shooter said:


> If your number of points is greater than your age.........you might be a point creep.
> If you collect points in states that you have never been to......you might be a point creep.
> If you take advantage of the UT general deer point loophole.....you might be a point creep.
> If you have ever talked someone into 'sharing points'........you might be a point creep.
> ...


2 out of 9 ain't bad!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

10 FOR 10 here......


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

martymcfly73 said:


> If you're a point creep do you have to be put on any sort of registry?


Think "Hunter Angler ID Number". You sir are already registered.------SS


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> Think "Hunter Angler ID Number". You sir are already registered.------SS


Son of a b.....


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> I know the system is supposed to be random but stop in to any DWR ran facility and see just how many of their employees have animals on the walls of their offices...no these are not the confiscated mounts either. I'm not familiar with the points for Archery vs. Rifle but have to wonder...who is it you know at the DWR? :shock:


These kind of stupid conspiracy theories kill me....

....I grew up going in and out of the Cedar City DWR office and occasionally am back in there now. Most of the mounts in that office are from roadkill animals or from confiscated poached animals. How do you know these mounts aren't confiscated? How do you know where these mounts came from? Do you suppose that guys who make a living by studying big game have a little understanding of those animals and where to find them and kill them....

I remember the days when DWR employees were NOT allowed to even apply for special hunting tags because of all the conspiracy theorists...now that the draw is done in Fallon that issue shouldn't be a problem. But, of course, there are always idiots who bring it up! My older brother--who is a biologist for the DWR--is sitting on 13 or 14 elk points and has been unable to draw an elk tag over the years despite always putting in for archery tags. I bet he wish he could get in on the conspiracy....


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

wyoming2utah said:


> These kind of stupid conspiracy theories kill me....


Dont you remember the big stink in the 1980's when SEVERAL dwr officials drew pretty much every OIL within the first few years? Some guys drew one every year.

I wish they still published the names of drawee's. It offered the public a chance to look over the results and spot questionable behavior.

Sorry, a guy drawing 4 oil's in 5 years... is pretty unbelieable. 2 guys who do it AND work for the DWR? Something smells stinky...

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

W2U,

What unit is your brother trying to draw? Needless to say, odds for 13 points for an archery tag last year were....well, pretty good. There are only two units in the state that point total wouldn't have been guaranteed. One of them (Pahvant) was 1 in 1.3 at 13 points. The other is the San Juan, and those odds are 1 in 8 still at 13 last year. So not much to complain about. So he might have been the unlucky 1 person that didn't draw the tag last year. Your home unit that you and Brett always talk about on here was guaranteed. In fact, it was guaranteed at 12. That's why I ask...

Not to be skeptical, but I'm a little skeptical. And yes, there have been draws in the past that were highly suspect based upon the public information. That really can't be logically debated. I think (hope) those days are behind us, however. 

Here is the deal with point creep---it's not the points that are the problem for all of us. It's the amount of time it takes to draw a tag. The points are just the byproduct of the long waits. No other system makes it any more likely to draw the tags any quicker. Go to Colorado today and start putting in for a top elk unit. Let me know how that goes. Even in states with no points, you could still go 20 years without drawing. Then you're complaining that your chances don't increase as time goes on, because it's been 20 years and you still don't have a tag in hand.


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