# Downfall of BYU Football Program



## HighNDry

As positive as everyone wants to be, it looks like you really can't take a semi-successful defensive coach and make him head coach and a high school football coach and make him an offensive coordinator of a college football program.

All the hype of how they were going to really take the program to new levels and get rid of Bronco era football seems to be fading. Lesson learned: personality does not win football games and losing programs regardless of how great a recruiter a coach is will not bring in top recruits. 

This team is missing the intangibles that Bronco taught such as heart, pride, spirit and tradition. From the coaches down to the least of players, facial expressions, body language and demeanor is that found in a mortuary.

It's not so much that they have lost the games they have as much as it is that they never even compete. They can't move the ball. What they have done to Mangum is borderline criminal. His freshman year was so promising. To bring Hill back last year and claim that he beat Mangum out has put doubts in Tanner's head. The whole year of experience lost last year is showing. They have ruined him. 

BYU football is dead. The only hope is for someone who can raise the dead. Other than that it will be a long, long, time before a resurrection.


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## wyoming2utah

I'm not a BYU football fan to the extent of being a U fan, but I feel your pain. However, I think you have to keep things in context. It is way too early to make such broad sweeping judgements on either Ty or Kalani. The offensive and defensive philosophies of the program have undergone some significant changes and neither Ty nor Kalani has had much time in recruiting the types of players that fit their philosophies. Yes, I get it...BYU's offense has never looked so anemic and their program has rarely, if ever, looked so down. But, based on what I have seen the past few weeks, the talent level simply isn't there. I don't think BYU is big enough or strong enough up front and near athletic enough in the skill positions to beat teams like LSU and Wisconsin. On the flip side, they were one TD away from beating Utah. As for Mangum, even as a frosh he wasn't as good as his numbers seemed to say (did you forget those lucky hail mary's?) and Hill was certainly the better QB (as his production in the NFL preseason showed). Right now, I think Hoge is a better QB prospect--stronger runner and stronger arm. He just lacks the experience.

Good grief...you BYU diehards are doom and gloom after a couple early losses and sky high world beaters after a couple early wins!


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## HighNDry

It is doom and gloom. And not because they have lost. I expected the losses. I have never witnessed a BYU team that could not at least move the ball into the opponents field of play during a game or one that just cannot score a TD. There's something wrong in Provo.

I think the key to resurrection is for the fan base to come to grips with the fact that Utah has moved on. They are in a conference that allows them to recruit better athletes. BYU has never been and never will be a P5 type program. All of the legends including Lavell were made in lesser conferences such as the WAC and MWC. That is about the type of athlete they can recruit. They will never compete with the top heavy schedule they are securing for the next several years. These teams are using BYU as a good warm up to their conference games.

I see BYU competing on the level of Boise State, Utah State and some of the other schools playing in the MWC. BYU fan was always happy to win the WAC and sometimes the MWC. Somewhere along the line, they have decided they are bigger and better than the athletes in those conferences. Utah is getting bigger and better because of their association in the PAC, thus, their wins over BYU teams the past 7 years.

BYU would do well to humbly accept that they have never been P5 status and never will be.


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## LostLouisianian

They blew it big time when they could not get the Navy coach to come to BYU. Time for a new AD at the Y, and I'm a Ute fan with local college ball.


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## Kwalk3

Jeez, man. I'm a Y alum and fan, but reading your prognosis for the future of the program makes me want to re-think my allegiances. You might make Debbie Downer look like the captain of the cheer-squad. 

We're exactly 4 games into the season, and there has been clear talent disparity the last 3 weeks. Is it going to be better? Maybe not to your liking this year, but I'm not jumping ship without seeing what they can do going forward.

I haven't been emotionally affected by any of the games this year. I was hunting elk during the LSU, Utah, and Wisconsin games. I didn't even think about them while they were happening. Watching the games and checking the scores was an afterthought even when I got home. 

Try hitting the hills or the river during the next game and see if that doesn't provide you with a renewed outlook and different perspective.


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## goosefreak

I think there are a couple things you need to take into consideration, 
1) BYU has a very strict honor code and that can/will/has made recruiting difficult
2) you have a first time head coach AND offensive coordinator, it may take a few seasons for them to learn together as a coaching staff and develop as a team. (maybe they never will)

Legends aren't born,.. they're made.

historically speaking, BYU has had some stellar years and have been most defiantly a worthy team to play against.

they're in a slump and need to figure their Chit out!

BTW. good ridden's to Branco. he was a POOR recruiter. He was good at making a person feel good but, you dont win games by holding hands and singing coom-by-yah..

Gotta have love for the game, humility, respect, sure, I get that but, you also need the talent. you could take the chess team and teach them love for football but, they might not have the talent


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## RandomElk16

Goose nailed it. For being independent, and having an honor code.. they have actually done really well for themselves over the years.


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## wyoming2utah

goosefreak said:


> BTW. good ridden's to Branco. he was a POOR recruiter. He was good at making a person feel good but, you dont win games by holding hands and singing coom-by-yah..


BYU fans kill me. Let's put things into perspective--Bronco Mendenhall was a proven winner. In fact, his win percentage at BYU was .697 (he won nearly 70% of his games). In comparison to the late great Lavell, his overall record was only slightly worse--Lavell posted a .716 win percentage at BYU. An even closer look at Lavell's career shows that the last 10 years of his coaching regime BYU only won at a 67% percent clip...2 percentage points lower than Bronco's. And, to make things clear Bronco's record was indicative of what the BYU trend has become and the difficulties BYU is facing. To put this whole thing into even more perspective, understand that Kilani Sitake record so far at BYU is 10-6 and he has a win percentage of 62.5%. Give Sitake and Detmer a chance to build a program of athletes that fit their style of play then make judgements.


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## goosefreak

I'm not dissing on sitake, or Ty..... i'm optimistic that they can do the job. Like I said I think if you give them time they can make something significant happen. 

As for bronco, I wasn't much of a fan of his. Particularly in the recruiting area


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## wyoming2utah

That was kind of my point...I am not sure how you can call a guy a poor recruiter when he won as consistently as he did. I would also contend that he won despite recruiting difficulties the likes of which Lavell never faced!


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## Critter

I have always thought that it was interesting when a new coach comes in along with all of the new personnel under him and fans want him to post a winning record every year. Then they jump on the get him out of here bandwagon when he starts to loose games. 

Granted there are problems on the offense and part of the blame can be place on Ty but if the offense doesn't perform on the field there is very little someone on the sideline can do about it during the game. 

It will take a couple of years down the road to get everything clicking again but if it doesn't then perhaps it will be time for a change in coaching personnel and another few years of dismal performances.


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## goosefreak

wyoming2utah said:


> That was kind of my point...I am not sure how you can call a guy a poor recruiter when he won as consistently as he did. I would also contend that he won despite recruiting difficulties the likes of which Lavell never faced!


I must be watching a different BYU team then. Branco consistently lost a lot of games too.. he was like dead meat on the sidelines too. He never seemed to get into it like setake does..


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## wyoming2utah

goosefreak said:


> I must be watching a different BYU team then. Branco consistently lost a lot of games too.. he was like dead meat on the sidelines too. He never seemed to get into it like setake does..


You must be...Again, Bronco's win percentage was 69.7%! He did NOT consistently lose a lot of games. In fact, his win percentage was very near the esteemed Lavell Edwards'....and, truthfully, higher than what Lavell managed in his last 10 years.

It sounds to me as if you disliked Bronco's demeanor on the sideline during games. It sounds as if you like the highly energetic and enthusiastic Sitake and how he acts during games. That may be a fair criticism....

...I remember, though, attending a BYU practice session during Bronco's tenure as a high school football coach and was totally amazed at the intensity during his practices. As a spectator, I was not only intimidated by Bronco's demeanor and attention to detail during that practice session but surprised by his energy and enthusiasm. The person I saw on TV was totally different than the coach I saw in person during practice.

After that practice session, I remember telling people that I believed Bronco would ultimately be the better coach compared to Whittingham. Though it appears as if I may have been wrong, I definitely think Bronco was the scapegoat of what I don't even know. Again, the guy was a proven winner. I can't believe that someone with his level of success is looked down upon so consistently among his fan base...to me, it is certainly a sign that expectations at BYU among the fanbase are probably unrealistic.


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## HighNDry

Lavell Edwards was a funny, kind, man but on the filed his demeanor was not different than Bronco's. Both tried to maintain their composure during games so that the players would focus on execution. 

As for Bronco's recruiting, he always maintained that it was difficult to recruit at BYU and had come to the conclusion that those who wanted to really come play for BYU would indicate so. He believed (right or wrong) that if you really wanted to play for BYU you would. If that meant contacting him, then that was part of it.

Have any of you read Bronco's book, "Running Into the Wind, 5 strategies for building a winning team?" Pretty interesting even if you do not agree with all of his philosophies.

Some didn't like the way Bronco did things but he was actually good for BYU. He actually managed the team the way a mission president would manage his missionaries to a degree. That doesn't sit well for nonmembers and members of the Church who feel there should be no connection between Church and football. But he actually worked really well with the parameters he was given.

When he left Bronco said this: “I don’t think it’s sustainable,” he said of BYU’s independent status. “I was trying everything I knew how to do to advance and pioneer that part. If I were to be really blunt about it, I took it as far as I could go in relation to that setting of independence."

So even Bronco had a gut feeling that the independence thing would eventually hurt BYU football. He felt like he had taken it as far as he could. Before the independence thing good players were coming to BYU. There were players that wanted to play there even without being recruited like other schools recruited. But once the recruits felt that there was nothing to play for at BYU things started to change. As Bronco said---It's not sustainable. What we see now is that statement coming to fruition.

It doesn't matter who is coaching, how great their personality is, how smart of an offensive mind they have, how great of a recruiter they are--players do not want to play for BYU because they have nothing to play for. It really has nothing to do with honor codes as BYU was able to have great players in the past with the same honor code. Bronco won 99 games in 10 seasons. He was a first time head coach and never had a losing season. Granted they didn't play the best schedule toward the end, but that wasn't his fault, it was the choice to go independent that created that scenario.

Downfall was predicted by Bronco. He seems to be a lot smarter than the average Cougar fan wants to admit.


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## goosefreak

what about the players BYU puts into the NFL? isn't that something to play for? BYU has and continues to put players into the NFL....
I dont think its 1 defining factor but, maybe a combination of several things.

For the record. I think BYU is an excellent team. Some years more than others.
I'll never get on board the branco train though, Dont get me wrong, there were some years where I think he did good but, ultimately I dont like his style...not because I'm a "typical BYU fan" un-rational. If that was the case i'd be tucking my shirt in, wearing white shoes, and drinking 7up. All joking aside, in-spite of being a "born again member" Im a fan because My dad has been a fan since I can remember, my wife is a BYU alumni, my friend Played and drafted out into the NFL and played for 6 years there and I hate the color red! 

I'm hopeful for the new blood in the coaching staff.. as of the last couple games, we aren't there yet. Mangum needs to wake up from lala land and throw the ball like he's got a pair!


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## Packout

After the Crowton fiasco, I think Bronco did an exceptional job both on and off the field. BYU is a religious school first and a football school second. And while those two things do not mix at times, it is important that the players at the Y want to be there under the restrictions in place. That philosophy cuts out 95% or more of D1 recruits. Now the U is the PAC12, the Y will lose even more of the 5% as local kids go to the U. 

I personally think it will take 4-5 years to get the recruits in place to compete at a higher level. The Y needs a decent receivers coach, a better O-Line coach and a few seasoned recruiters. Every coach on the team seems like they are new to coaching and recruiting. 

So accept Y football for what it is-- an independent team, playing many high level opponents, with the chance to have a stellar season or two once every 10 years. I like that they are good dudes, representing a religious university. Give Kalani and Detmer some time.


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## Catherder

wyoming2utah said:


> ...to me, it is certainly a sign that expectations at BYU among the fanbase are probably unrealistic.


IMO, "expectations" is why many cougarfans are sounding exactly the same as H&D. Whether is is 1984, the 25 year run of dominance, or Detmer's Heisman, it seems there is a disconnect between the glories of a past generation and today's realities. It doesn't help that in the offseason, zealots start proclaiming unrealistic things like Mangum for Heisman and 10 and 11 win seasons with the current tough schedule. The real pain of the 7 game losing streak to "you know who" doesn't help either.

I think the cougs will actually be fine. Yes, they will likely lose to Mississippi St. on the road and probably Boise (although I don't think Boise is as tough as some think) but look at the rest of their schedule. The tray of cupcakes is coming. I predict they will go 8-5 or 7-6, win some smallish bowl and trigger the expectation cycle yet again.


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## DallanC

Breaking news. BYU finally allows caffeinated drinks for sale on campus.

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45883814&n...inated-soft-drinks-for-first-time-since-1950s

This is of course, being implemented to try and keep fans awake during games.

/evillaugh

-DallanC


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## Bax*

DallanC said:


> Breaking news. BYU finally allows caffeinated drinks for sale on campus.
> 
> https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45883814&n...inated-soft-drinks-for-first-time-since-1950s
> 
> This is of course, being implemented to try and keep fans awake during games.
> 
> /evillaugh
> 
> -DallanC


I was just going to post this. Maybe a little caffeine will wake them up on the field :mrgreen:


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## BigT

I don't think that they are doing all that bad considering the gauntlet they had to run through... Sure they struggled with Portland State, but many teams struggle in their openers. 

Sitake is doing well in his recruiting, but he's a defensive guy. The offense will come around. BYU has had a legit schedule. There's only a handful of teams in the country that would have come out of that stretch with any wins. LSU on the road, Utah and Wisconsin at home. All three of those teams have one thing in common... At least defensively. Huge in the trenches, and a lot of speed and athleticism on the edges. Wisconsin is in my opinion a potential playoff contender. Utah is a pretty decent team, and BYU caught LSU at the wrong time while struggling on offense. I guess that hasn't changed! 

I firmly believe BYU beats USU in Logan Friday while showing some signs of life on offense. I think BYU beats Boise State. Probably a loss at Mississippi State. Other than that, it'll turn into a decent season and Sitake will have the team ready for their bowl game. All that said, doesn't matter how many games they win. Once they lose a game in September which will happen every year, their season doesn't have as much meaning. They need conference affiliation. I am not sure exactly how that'll happen as I don't believe they'd go back to the MWC. But my gosh it would be good for them to still have something to play for after a 3-game stretch they just went through. I don't believe they'll ever get into a P5 do to political reasons. 

I love my Ute's, I feel for the cougs. Took Utah 3 years to adjust for the big boys and build some depth. BYU doesn't have the conference affiliation to do what Utah has done as far as recruiting and depth. 

Good luck to the cougs moving forward!


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## MuscleWhitefish

BYU lost to UMass. Wow 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Huge29

A new low was set today. I think Holmoe needs to go immediately, this independence was all him and clearly a flop. Even Mtn West would be an improvement over this crap. 
I think Sitake will have at least another year and Detmer may not survive this year. The first 5 games of the year certainly were as expected, but Umass, USU and Fresno are just inexplicable.


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## Critter

They way that they are playing this year they would be at the bottom of the MTN West conference. 

Sitake is trying to be everyone's friend and be nice. You can't do that and be a football coach. As for Detmer, he won the Heisman on a fluke and his play calling needs to go back to high school.


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## LostLouisianian

The players gave up on the season a long time ago and that's a failure of the head coach. Holmoe and Sitake need to go now, not tomorrow, not next week or next month but right now this very second and a total rebuild needs to take place from the top down. Or quit football all together. This is beyond stupid ridiculous


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## BPturkeys

The whole darn thing is a mess. The "Y" is now in a terrible spot with no quick way out. You can't recruit into a loosing program and you can't become a winning program without talented recruits, and this applies to hiring good coaches too. They struggle to recruit even good Mormon boys that might have even a glimmer of hope of entering the NFL, and their lock on Pacific Islanders is no more. They just need to get back into a conference somehow and work their way back to respectability(football wise)...but no conference wants a loosing program in their league...it's just a mess! I am no Mo and love to see the "Y" loose, but even I feel kind of bad for how things have turned out for them. It's gettin hard to kick a downed dog.


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## Critter

I don't think that what ever the Y does they will never be into the elite of the collage football world. Even when they dominated the WAC, and MTN West they fell flat on their faces when it came time for the bowl game and a good opponent was chosen to face them. It has come to the point that the bowls that they now get to go to when they win will pick a lower power team to face them. Not to mention that the bowl is usually a third rate one such as the Vegas Bowl. And yes there are lower ones out there but Vegas likes them just for the fan base that they will drag down south 5 hours to watch the game. ESPN likes them because of the fan base that they have. It doesn't matter where they play they draw in the fans because of the church. 

But now the way that they are playing they would be on the bottom of just about any conference that they might enter and odds are that they would stay there. I actually think that Bronco saw the writing on the wall and bailed out before the downfall. It is hard to recruit a top tier football player when you place that contract in front of them with the honor code that they have to abide with. If you notice a lot of the top tier players that they are now getting are returned missionaries that had committed to another school and then changed their minds once they finished their missions and decided to come to the Y.


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## Catherder

It has been a forgettable football year all around in the state.........


My question for cougarfans is this. How hot is Sitakes seat? It would seem that with the historic incompetence of the offense, Detmer is on very shaky ground, but when I have seen the cougs this year, it simply seems like they don't have D-1 athletes out there in a lot of positions. If so, that would suggest a problem higher up. Either substandard coaching, bad recruiting or both. Not that I mind much as a Utefan, but it's to the point now I feel sorry for them. 

As for Holmoe, I agree with Huge that he should be canned and not all the things I dislike about his reign relate to on field performance.


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## BPturkeys

I was kind of thinkin what might save the season for the "Y" fans this year...gee, and maybe in years to come...would be to instead of worrying about a bowl game, just schedule a Christmas season game with the state highschool champs of the year. Can you imagine the turnout for a Dec 26th game of BYU vs Bingham High...probably actually be a good game...Go Miners!

And what about this after thought...with the age of some of the BYU players, we could possibly see some father son match ups


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## silentstalker

I have been a Y fan since my Dad took my brother and I to the games a long time ago. 

Sitake is not on the hot seat yet IMO. But, the program is in shambles and needs to answer some very difficult questions. 

1- what kind of program do they want to be?

2- are they willing to pay their coaches enough to draw and keep good coaches?

Currently most WAC and Mtn West coaches make more money than BYU's coaches. This has led to lower level or first time coaches being the norm at the Y. 

Talent and missions are always the excuse, win or lose. When the Y is successful it is because their players are mature. If they lose they are old and slow. 

The truth is they have nothing but pride and a spot in the NFL for a few players to play for. 

This team lacks discipline. On and off the field. Sitake is fun and loose. His team is undisciplined and delivers horrible execution. Coach must instill that discipline. Wins will follow.


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## GaryFish

I've been away for a few months. I'll chime in.

First, teams have down years. We don't know how great we've had it at BYU fans. But teams have down years. Oregon went from the national championship game to two years later, 4-8. And that is with all the recruiting advantages that BYU doesn't have. So the Cougs have a horrible year. It happens. 

Second, this season SHOULD have been better, like 7-6, or at least 6-7. When you break it down, injuries and getting owned on the line of scrimmage are the #1 and 1A problems - from both sides of the ball. And those two things fall on the strength and conditioning program. In every. single. game. BYU has been sucking wind by the middle of the second quarter. And in every game, they've played their opponents - even LSU, Wisconsin, and MSU - all ranked teams - fairly even - until the middle of the 2nd quarter. And at that point, every opponent from Portland State, to U-Mass, started over-powering them at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. And thing with strength and conditioning - you can't fix that mid-season. Mid-season only allows maintaining at best. The players came into the season out of shape and stayed out of shape and got manhandled in every single game. 

The talent is there (at least on the 1-deep). The coaches know how to coach. But out of shape players simply can't compete against other D1 schools that are in shape. Add that to the out of shape players getting hurt - and that's how a 3-10 or 4-9 season happens. 

Go Cougars! Hope next year gets better. But either way, I'm Royal, Strong and True Blue. But dang, what a painful year!


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## Kingfisher

go AGGIES! I thought it was great when "little brother" beat.... "big Brother" this year and then the cougars had to go and strip us of that accomplishment cause anyone can beat the Y this year. should have seen it coming when it took the cougs 8 minutes to score AFTER the aggies had gone to the locker room for half time.
to sum it up... they just suck. there are likely thousands of reasons from coaches to players but in total, they suck. oh well. such is the fortune of any team, truly great ones will come back. and in most cases, teams will eventually end up in a conference in which they can compete... like WEBER in the big sky... go wildcats, doin us proud this year and SUE U... oh, SUU, equal to weber in the playoffs! yaay!
and btw - to BYU, quit ursurping AGGIE blue, the old powder blue is a better color for yall.


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## wyoming2utah

Kingfisher, I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but SUU is no equal to Weber State...they are superior! Even though they were screwed in their playoff seeding, SUU showed to be a better team than Weber State when the T-birds drubbed them in Ogden. And, by virtue of their record vs. other playoff teams (3-0), SUU should have been seeded much higher than what they were. I hope they go far in their tourney!


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## Kingfisher

and the dominos start to fall... detmer relieved of duties. 
personally I think that its way to soon for that. give him another 5 years or so... then one could make a rational decision.


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## LostLouisianian

Detmer isn't the problem, Sitake is. I heard an interview with one of the QB's for BYU about 3 weeks ago on the radio and he was saying how insightful Detmer was. He said that Detmer would call a play in a game and turn to one of the QB's on the sideline and tell them who would be open before the play was ran and he was always right. The team lacks heart, discipline and fight and that's on Sitake.


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## PBH

^^

that's funny.

Here's a hint: it's not Sitake. BYU football is doomed, and it isn't coaching. Without a conference to play in, BYU will never return to it's former winning ways.

BYU has gone fishing.
USU is _hoping_ for a bowl bid. A bowl. Arizona Bowl? Foster Farms Bowl? Whoopty-freakin-do.
UofU is also _hoping_ for a bowl. Another meaningless bowl from a mediocre team. Heck, they'll probably end up with an MWC team in the Las Vegas Bowl! (reminder me why they left the MWC???)

Weber and SUU are the only teams that are still playing for something that means anything! Nice job to both schools. Go T-Birds! SUU > Weber


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> UofU is also _hoping_ for a bowl. Another meaningless bowl from a mediocre team. Heck, they'll probably end up with an MWC team in the Las Vegas Bowl! (reminder me why they left the MWC???)


We will be getting a bowl. Power 5 teams are pretty safe in getting invited. As for it being a "meaningless" event, it sure beats the alternative. It's a few more weeks of practice, another game for our young guys and making a bowl quiets cackling cougarfans that would never let us hear the end of it if we didn't. One can (accurately) make a good argument that all the bowls in the FBS are meaningless except for the 3 playoff games. If the FBS field were 24 teams, like the FCS, then the Utes would have been in the hunt to make that, based on 3 top 25 fishes the previous 3 seasons.

That is not to take anything away from your Thunderbirds, you should be justly proud of what they did the past couple of years. Good luck this week.


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## LostLouisianian

With as many bowl games as there are nowadays I can't wait for one to be named "The Participation Trophy Bowl Game" !!!!:grin::grin::grin:


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## BPturkeys

I am still thinking the "Y" needs to just set up there own bowl game, they'd fill the Edwards stadium every year with a bunch of great Utah only fans...BYU vs the Utah high school Champs. The "Y" don't need no stinkin no-name bowl game with some no-name team in some no-name place...go Bingham!


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## willfish4food

GaryFish said:


> I've been away for a few months. I'll chime in.
> 
> First, teams have down years. We don't know how great we've had it at BYU fans. But teams have down years. Oregon went from the national championship game to two years later, 4-8. And that is with all the recruiting advantages that BYU doesn't have. So the Cougs have a horrible year. It happens.
> 
> Second, this season SHOULD have been better, like 7-6, or at least 6-7. When you break it down, injuries and getting owned on the line of scrimmage are the #1 and 1A problems - from both sides of the ball. And those two things fall on the strength and conditioning program. In every. single. game. BYU has been sucking wind by the middle of the second quarter. And in every game, they've played their opponents - even LSU, Wisconsin, and MSU - all ranked teams - fairly even - until the middle of the 2nd quarter. And at that point, every opponent from Portland State, to U-Mass, started over-powering them at the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. And thing with strength and conditioning - you can't fix that mid-season. Mid-season only allows maintaining at best. The players came into the season out of shape and stayed out of shape and got manhandled in every single game.
> 
> The talent is there (at least on the 1-deep). The coaches know how to coach. But out of shape players simply can't compete against other D1 schools that are in shape. Add that to the out of shape players getting hurt - and that's how a 3-10 or 4-9 season happens.
> 
> Go Cougars! Hope next year gets better. But either way, I'm Royal, Strong and True Blue. But dang, what a painful year!


It's very uncommon that I disagree with GF when it comes to BYU football, and this is no exception to that trend. I don't know why so few people are talking about the training staff/strength and conditioning coaches. Most players and especially the big men are constantly showing signs of fatigue before halftime. And good gracious look at the injuries! When you have that many in the season and by the end you're playing your 4th string QB and moving the wildcat QB to RB because all your running backs are inured, there's a problem in the training program! Seemed to me that at least part of it was bringing players back before they were ready to play, but A LOT was that the players just were not physically ready for the season.

The bad record is what it is. I was frustrated for a while, but I can see it for what it is now, a combination of a very tough front end and a injury riddled back end. To put it in hunting context, after planning and preparing for the whole year, during the hunt get rid of your first then second choice weapon and pull the one that you have the least experience with out of the safe and use that one. That's essentially what happened at QB. Then try throwing away the good broken in boots and clothing then get rid of your old back up stuff too and decide that even though your warm-up sweats aren't hunting gear, it's at least athletic gear and wear that. That's what happened at running back. I'm fairly confident it would be tough to put together a successful hunt; just like it was too tough for BYU to put together a wining season. Again, I put that squarely on the shoulders of the training staff and the strength and conditioning coaches.

As for going back to the MW, FOR WHAT? In BYU's worst season in over 50 years, we went 3-3 overall against MW teams and had a legitimate chance of beating the MW West champ. With independence we get 5-6 good teams to play each year and better TV coverage. Go back to the MW and we get worse TV coverage and fewer quality games. Being the champ of the MW really doesn't do much for me, and really doesn't do much for recruiting either.

Relieving Detmer of OC is a mistake IMO. Yes, this was probably the worst year for BYU offense in the history of BYU football, but look what the man had to work with. Not sure any OC could have put something together this year with all those injuries.


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## GaryFish

Good post Willfish4food. I agree with all you said. I would add that BYU lost their starting QB and RB from last year, to the NFL. That is a huge loss. Oregon lost their Heisman trophy QB and didn't make a bowl game. Those kind of things are huge. 

My guess with Detmer is that he called his own number on this one. The guy had a really nice life going on in Texas. His own private hunting ranch, coaching a private school football team on the side, already has enough NFL money to last the rest of his life. No pressure. No stress. No scores of armchair internet critics thinking they know more football than him. Critics will say he couldn't take the heat, or he didn't know what he was doing, or whatever. My question is, why would he want to? He came to Provo as a favor. He knows something has to give, and if I had what he has waiting back in Texas, well, I'd be back down there in a heart beat, and taking to the woods for a nice hunt on my hunting ranch. 

As a BYU fan, I wish he'd have a few more years. At least long enough to get his recruits a chance to play for him, from linemen, to QBs and receivers. I think had he had his own recruits to coach, it could have better results. I wish him well in whatever adventure is next. The times I've met Ty, you couldn't ask for a better guy. 

As for future and past and whatever, people like to point to Holmoe and assert that independence has been a mistake. I do not agree with that. Sure, it would be great to be in a big 5 conference. Religious bigotry kept them out of the Pac10/12 (not LDS bigotry - but bigotry against ALL religious affiliated schools). The Big 8/12 would be the next best fit, but the TV networks put the squash on ANY expansion there because of the way the current contracts are structured. So BYU is left out. It has nothing to do with winning or losing programs, traditions or not. It is all about TV contracts. And for now, ESPN gets BYU games for much less than they would pay for BYU games if they were a part of the Big 8/12. Same content, lower price. BYU makes more money as an independent than they would with any of the non P-5 conferences. And as was pointed out, they get a better schedule than if they were in the MWC. Independence isn't perfect. Far from it. But it is the best option available to BYU right now. 

As that relates to something to play for - VERY few teams in the country have anything to play for other than a consolation/participation bowl game. If you aren't in the cool-kids club - you CANNOT play in the play-off. It is why Ohio State, after getting demolished - twice - is still in the discussion but USC and Washington are not. NO TEAM in the Pac10/12 is in the cool kids club. Heck Wisconsin is undefeated in the Big 10/14 this year - and the cool kid club is looking for ways NOT to include them in the playoff. So unless you are in that club, records, strength of schedule, conference, all mean nothing. Every one else is playing for the fun of it, and that is OK. But that is not unique to BYU. BYU is right along side Central Florida, Utah, Iowa, Nebraska, UNLV, Washington State, and just about any team not coached by Saben or Meyer that is also not part of the cool kid club.


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## wyoming2utah

I have lost a lot of interest in college football since the Utes and Y left the MWC. I know that Utah benefitted greatly financially from the move, but honestly, as a fan, it was not a good thing. From my viewpoint, we have lost a lot of what made college football fun for me--the underdog role against the power 5 schools and breaking up the BCS, the in-state rivalry that was often for a conference championship, and even the chance at playing one of the big dogs in a bowl game that felt like it mattered.

Now that Utah is in the Pac12, what have we gained besides more money? It seems that the Utes are mired in mediocrity despite this yearly claim that we are deeper, bigger, stronger, and faster. But, I have a hard time seeing how any of these recent Utah teams could beat the Alex Smith led team or even the Brian Johnson led teams. Even worse, when the Utes do go bowling, we seem to end up with a MWC team that they would have played in conference play. And, they are playing with nothing really to gain and everything to lose. Where is the excitement in these bowl games?

Personally, I would trade all this Pac12 bs hype for the old MWC or WAC days in a second. BYU should too!


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## willfish4food

The cool kid club is why Alabama will not even be in the SEC championship game but still has a real chance at getting in the playoff. It has nothing to do with the SEC being "that good" and has everything to do with the committee being able to do whatever they want. They could easily say Alabama had an uncharacteristically bad game against Auburn, wave the proverbial middle finger at the deserving schools and let the Tide roll on. And truth be told, I would not be surprised in the least. 

W2U I have also lost some interest in college football recently. I liked the rivalry formed from playing USU, Utah, and TCU every year. There's history that comes with those games. Right now, BYU plays some good schools, but only once every few years or less. There's no history and no rivalry. 

I would be all for going back to the MWC if we could keep the better TV coverage and if the teams were better. Back when BYU, TCU, and Utah left, I thought it would have been way better if they had stayed and the MWC picked up Boise State, Utah State, Fresno State and one other school then got rid of that AWFUL TV contract they had.


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## GaryFish

You are dead on right about Alabama rolling into the playoff. The "committee" proved that last year when they put in Ohio State over Penn State, when Penn State won the Big 10 AND beat Ohio State head to head. But hey. What do conference championships mean to the cool kid club? 

It is weird that we'd wax nostalgic for MWC or WAC days. But the year in and year out conference rivalries with San Diego State, Wyoming, Colorado State, and even the Air Force ankle biters WERE fun games because of the history with those schools. But that's the way things were when I was at BYU, so that is what I knew. But fun as those games were, it was ALWAYS a MUCH bigger deal when bigger, national names came into Cougar Stadium - Penn State, Notre Dame, Texas, Miami, Texas A & M, etc... And watching the Cougars beat them in Provo was always a bigger deal than the games against MWC/WAC opponents. So there is that. And much as we love to remember the Miami win in 1990, we blank out the thumping BYU took in Miami in 1988. Or getting spanked in South Bend. Or Austin. Or getting shredded by Florida State at home and in Jacksonville. So hard to say. Games are still fun. I still watch them. I still enjoy them. I enjoy seeing them play 5-6 bigger names instead of 2-3 each year. And I take it for what college football is for about 115 of the 130 teams in the country - sports entertainment and nothing more.


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## wyoming2utah

I also get sick of hearing how good the SEC is...the truth is that the playoff system is rigged to go against a strong top to bottom conference in favor of a top heavy conference like the SEC. If, for example, the Pac12 was loaded with talented teams top to bottom and they beat each other up in league play, a bunch of two loss teams don’t get a sniff at the playoff. But, a top heavy bottom weak league could put in a no-loss or one-loss team in. Good leagues are punished...no conference should want parity and competitive games weak in and weak out.


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## Catherder

Speaking for myself, this Utefan is ecstatic about being in the Pac-12. I would never want to go back to the "old days". We get to see top teams come in to RES every year, every week is interesting, and we have even had some success. It has helped recruiting, finances, and exposure. It has changed "the rivalry", but I have wearied of the toxicity of it anyway and wouldn't miss it if it disappeared. 


As for the FBS playoff, with only 4 slots, the problems described will always be there and debated. It should be expanded to 8, minimum.


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## Critter

Seeing as the downfall of the Zoo is over for at least a few months how do you feel with the hiring of Jeff Grimes as the new OC?

At least now LL will have a LSU tie to the Y.

http://www.sltrib.com/sports/byu-co...semble-best-offensive-staff-byu-has-ever-had/


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## Vanilla

wyoming2utah said:


> Kingfisher, I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but SUU is no equal to Weber State...they are superior! Even though they were screwed in their playoff seeding, SUU showed to be a better team than Weber State when the T-birds drubbed them in Ogden.


*GO WILDCATS!!! *

T-birds got lucky and played WSU without their QB. It was a fun time to have both in the playoff, however. That was a pretty big deal!



wyoming2utah said:


> Personally, I would trade all this Pac12 bs hype for the old MWC or WAC days in a second.


No Utah fan would ever trade having USC, Oregon, and Stanford coming through SLC each year for New Mexico, Air Force, and Colorado State. Sorry W2U, you are wrong in that. I'd take 8-4 in the PAC 12 over 10-2 in the MWC any day of the week, and twice on Saturdays.

*GO UTES! *


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## PBH

Weber kept the James Madison game close. Too bad they couldn't advance to the next round.
Cantwell is good. He destroyed SUU.


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## Vanilla

Weber State totally should have won that game. It's a game of inches...

Fun while it lasted. It would be awesome if WSU and SUU could both remain competitive going forward. I know not many people pay attention to 1-AA programs (they will always be 1-AA to me, regardless of what they call them), but there are a bunch of guys on both of those teams that could play for both BYU and Utah. Fun teams to watch play this year, for sure!


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## wyoming2utah

Vanilla said:


> No Utah fan would ever trade having USC, Oregon, and Stanford coming through SLC each year for New Mexico, Air Force, and Colorado State. Sorry W2U, you are wrong in that. I'd take 8-4 in the PAC 12 over 10-2 in the MWC any day of the week, and twice on Saturdays.


I would because I liked playing Alabama in the bowl game instead of Colorado State, BYU, or New Mexico. Who are the Utes playing this year in the bowl game anyway?


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## LostLouisianian

Dear BY Who, thank you for taking Grimes off of LSU's hands. He was hands down the absolute worst line coach we've had in 15 years. LSU had his replacement hired before it was announced Grimes was going to BYU. Good luck cougs you're gonna need it with him.


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## Vanilla

wyoming2utah said:


> I would because I liked playing Alabama in the bowl game instead of Colorado State, BYU, or New Mexico. Who are the Utes playing this year in the bowl game anyway?


The BYU matchup was an anomaly. The year they played CSU, the Rams were a 10-win team and ranked in the top 25. Not a bad bowl matchup, actually.

And they've played an Alabama caliber team in a bowl game exactly 1 time in 100+ years of playing football. Let's not let the extreme exception make your mindset for the rule. That is just incredibly flawed thinking. They have just as good of a chance of getting another special season like that where they are as if they would have stayed. 2008 seasons don't come around often for teams not named Alabama or Clemson.


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## Vanilla

Only a true byu fan...the most special of its kind, could turn a thread discussing the horrid season BYU had into a criticism of Utah being in the PAC 12 and being worse off when they were in the MWC. 

W2U, some of your recent rants have taken insanity and given it an entirely new meaning!


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## PBH

did Vanilla just call W2U a BYU fan?

that there's funny!


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## LostLouisianian

Good grief I was listening to the radio on the way home from work yesterday and it was the cougar show and you would think they're going to win the Super Bowl next year since they got Grimes....SMH


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## Critter

You never know how a coach is going to react to a different team. 

A good example from where I am at is Josh McDaniels that came to the head coaching job at the Denver Broncos from New England. He was a total flop and had a hard time even tying his shoes. But he is a great quarterback coach when he returned to New England after being fired from the head coaching job in Denver.


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## Catherder

LostLouisianian said:


> Good grief I was listening to the radio on the way home from work yesterday and it was the cougar show and you would think they're going to win the Super Bowl next year since they got Grimes....SMH


You mean the same hype we heard from cougarfans 2 years ago when they hired their last "superstar" OC?


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## Critter

I don't think that there is a team out there that doesn't proclaim that the new coach coming into a program is the best that is out there and they expect to go undefeated for the next 20 years while he is in the program. 

It is the old shoot for the moon and then live with what you get. 

I really didn't expect much from the zoo's football team for at least 4-5 years after they lost Bronco and it looks like it might take those 4-5 years for them to figure things out.


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## Catherder

IDK, the U and Whittingham have changed OC's 7 of the previous 9 years and I never heard such hype with any of those switches. Cougarfans seem to take hyping "next year" to a high art form and then have to suffer the harsh letdown of reality every autumn.


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## Critter

At least the U already had a winning program. 

All the Y can do is get better. it would be hard to get worse but I guess that they can.


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## Vanilla

PBH said:


> did Vanilla just call W2U a BYU fan?
> 
> that there's funny!


Well, if he'd stop acting like one!!!

You know how _those_ people can be.


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## HighNDry

When the media posted all the men who could come in as OC, I did not see one on the list that looked promising. I'm trying to be positive, but Grimes doesn't appear to be anymore experienced in play calling than Detmer. After the list of OC's came out, I actually felt it better to keep Detmer and let him learn through some tough seasons. He is smart enough to eventually come out on top if it was really what he wanted to do. But, I suspect he really didn't want to be in "real" coaching or he would have set that course long ago.

I don't see BYU football making any real strides for a good 5 or 6 years. This tailspin will continue for the foreseeable future. 

I remember listening to Sitake years ago when he was working with the defense at Utah. Kind of fun but never a real serious interview and he never seemed to have answers this year. He seemed stunned after most of the games with a deer-in-headlights look most of the time.

Anyway, all those that think BYU will rise to some sort of greatness in football quickly are in for a long hard grind. Without getting into a conference and finding coaches with actual experience, this program will take 5 or 6 years to get competitive---if ever again.


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## LostLouisianian

HighNDry said:


> When the media posted all the men who could come in as OC, I did not see one on the list that looked promising. I'm trying to be positive, but Grimes doesn't appear to be anymore experienced in play calling than Detmer. After the list of OC's came out, I actually felt it better to keep Detmer and let him learn through some tough seasons. He is smart enough to eventually come out on top if it was really what he wanted to do. But, I suspect he really didn't want to be in "real" coaching or he would have set that course long ago.
> 
> I don't see BYU football making any real strides for a good 5 or 6 years. This tailspin will continue for the foreseeable future.
> 
> I remember listening to Sitake years ago when he was working with the defense at Utah. Kind of fun but never a real serious interview and he never seemed to have answers this year. He seemed stunned after most of the games with a deer-in-headlights look most of the time.
> 
> Anyway, all those that think BYU will rise to some sort of greatness in football quickly are in for a long hard grind. Without getting into a conference and finding coaches with actual experience, this program will take 5 or 6 years to get competitive---if ever again.


Totally agree, Sitake clearly is never going to get them to where they need to be but I don't know of anyone else that would be interested in taking over that program for the pittance they pay. BYWho either needs to put up or resign itself to the MWC and mediocrity. The days of LaVell are over and done with.


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## Vanilla

LostLouisianian said:


> Totally agree, Sitake clearly is never going to get them to where they need to be...


I guess my question for this comment is exactly where do they "need to be?"

His first season they won 9 games and had wins over Arizona, Michigan State, and Mississippi State. Is BYU's ceiling higher than that? You'd be hard pressed to convince me it is.


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## Packout

It is always interesting to see the hate and disrespect people have for a sports team. Way too much time spent with spate. 

Merry Christmas fellas.

..


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## LostLouisianian

Vanilla said:


> I guess my question for this comment is exactly where do they "need to be?"
> 
> His first season they won 9 games and had wins over Arizona, Michigan State, and Mississippi State. Is BYU's ceiling higher than that? You'd be hard pressed to convince me it is.


The first year of a new coach is never what they are. They're taking over another coaches team and culture before their stamp is really on it. Their true colors start coming through in years 2-4 then by year 5 they totally own it 100% lock stock and barrel. Sitake won with Bronco's boys his first year and with Bronco's culture. Sitake put his stamp and culture on it year 2. Just watch the next 2-3 years you'll see.


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## GaryFish

Mendenhall left BYU with a cupboard full of NFL talent on both sides of the ball. That is gone. 

I'm as loyal BYU fan as you'll find around. But to me, the glory days of the hand full of top 10 teams are long gone, and will never happen again. The landscape has changed so drastically. Even if in a P-5 conference, BYU would never be a top 10 team. I see BYU's ceiling as that of about 100 of the 130 D1 teams, and that is, win more than you lose, and have a good time watching college football. Think Arizona and Arizona State, Utah (the whole Pac 12 really except Oregon and USC), Colorado State, San Diego State, Oregon State, Cal, Nebraska, Georgia Tech, all of the Big 10 except Ohio State and Michigan, all of the Big 12 except Oklahoma and Texas, all of the ACC except Clemson, Florida State, and Miami, etc.... You get the drift. 

But BYU fans thinking BYU can return to the glory days first, don't realize those days weren't nearly as plentiful as you think they were, and two, have never been outside the state to see what other schools are doing and spending to have what they have. Once you see that, you'll realize that a string of 8-4 or better like BYU rattled off is really quite rare, and not common for most all programs, let alone ones that make the football players meet strict honor codes and academic standards. 

BYU fans need to adjust their expectations. Plain and simple. Aim for more. Absolutely. But don't think the sky is falling when the Cougs are doing exactly what they are designed to do in the college football landscape.


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## Catherder

Vanilla said:


> I guess my question for this comment is exactly where do they "need to be?"
> 
> His first season they won 9 games and had wins over Arizona, Michigan State, and Mississippi State. Is BYU's ceiling higher than that? You'd be hard pressed to convince me it is.


There is one game missing on this list that has been missing for 8 years. (7 games) Until that win is added, cougarfans will be summarily dissatisfied.

Other than that, I agree that 9-4, 8-5 type seasons will likely be top end with current scheduling patterns. As has been previously discussed, whether the fan base comes to accept that is a different matter.


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## GaryFish

Good point Catherder. I'm glad I don't live in Utah any more, so I don't have to hear people yapping about that all the time. But that said, only one of those losses has been by more than one score. So the games are exciting, close, well fought, and fun to watch. Even though my Cougs have ended up on the short end, the games against Utah have been a great way to spend 4 hours, even if my team lost them. And I can't ask for much more than that. Watching a close loss to Utah is much easier than a never close game against U-Mass or East Carolina that were just bad football all around. So it goes. If any person determines their own worth by how their favorite sports team does, then there are much bigger issues to deal with.


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## Vanilla

Look, as a Utah fan and one that enjoys watching BYU lose every game, I'm fine if doom and gloom take over and the program falls apart! I was simply try to inject some reality that one bad year where the wheels came off is not the end of the world. Everyone has been through it. I hope BYU runs Sitake out of town right back to SLC. You don't deserve him. 



Catherder said:


> There is one game missing on this list that has been missing for 8 years. (7 games) Until that win is added, cougarfans will be summarily dissatisfied.


I didn't include that game because the BYU ceiling hits before you get to that game. *GO UTES! *


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## HighNDry

Vanilla,
Is there a way to explain why you like to watch BYU lose every year? Is it hatred or something else? And if it is hatred where does that hatred stem from? Is it the dreaded Holier-than-thou attitude that seems to pick at the emotions of so many?

And Sitake is a warm wonderful man, but he has not been successful anywhere he's coached. At Utah he was a token defensive coach under the strong thumb of Whittingham. Everywhere else he has not been that stellar.


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## PBH

I'm sitting here in my office wearing a new U of U sweatshirt.
I opened the SLTrib to see what's new.

Looky there! Utah won the Heart of Dallas Bowl. Yippee!




Is it sad that I never even thought about the game yesterday? I had no idea it was on. I guess 'Pickles to Penguins' was just higher on the priority list.


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> Is it sad that I never even thought about the game yesterday? I had no idea it was on. I guess 'Pickles to Penguins' was just higher on the priority list.


No, but it isn't a bad way for the Utes to end their season. Much better finish than West Virginia, or , uh, the cougs. Unless your team is one of the fortunate 4 in the playoffs, this is the preferred way to end a typical FBS season.

One more comment/rant. I've heard some Utefans grumble and cougarfans derisively mock when the Utes went to the Vegas bowl twice in a row. Yes, Sam Boyd stadium is an armpit of a venue, but what's not to like about going to Vegas for a bowl game? Nice weather, short drive, usually the game is before Christmas and on a Saturday, so folks can easily go, and Vegas is Vegas. Contrast that to the situation and conditions yesterday.

If you are ending the year in a "consolation" bowl, one can do much worse than Vegas.


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## Vanilla

HighNDry said:


> Vanilla,
> Is there a way to explain why you like to watch BYU lose every year? Is it hatred or something else? And if it is hatred where does that hatred stem from? Is it the dreaded Holier-than-thou attitude that seems to pick at the emotions of so many?


Hate is probably too strong of a word, even though I've used it myself plenty to describe how I feel about BYU football. I don't hate a single person involved with BYU football as an individual. Yes, the fan base drives me completely bonkers at times, and yes...they are worse than just about any other fan base, but I can get over that. It comes down to this: BYU is Utah's rival. I think it is entirely acceptable, and even encouraged, to hope your rival sucks on the field. That is what rivalry is all about. It's only sports, it should not be taken too seriously. I just like watching our rival team lose. I am not one that subscribes to the "I cheer for them every game except when they play my team" mantra. I don't think that is a rivalry at all, actually.



HighNDry said:


> Vanilla,
> And Sitake is a warm wonderful man, but he has not been successful anywhere he's coached. At Utah he was a token defensive coach under the strong thumb of Whittingham. Everywhere else he has not been that stellar.


I disagree with this. He was very successful as a defensive coordinator at Utah. And while he was a Whittingham student and worked within Whitt's philosophies, he certainly called his own defense and put his own wrinkle on things. If you watch Utah's defense from when Whitt ran it until now under Scalley, you can see there are differences that each have incorporated, even if it is still based upon Kyle's philosophies.


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## HighNDry

Good answers. Thanks.
I guess one of the ways I look at it, is I want all the teams that my team plays to have the best season possible so that my win against them has more merit. To brag that we beat a "rival" that is 2-10 or 4-9 or whatever doesn't have meaning for me. To say we beat good teams with winning records looks and sounds better. To each their own.


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## Vanilla

HighNDry said:


> Good answers. Thanks.
> I guess one of the ways I look at it, is I want all the teams that my team plays to have the best season possible so that my win against them has more merit. To brag that we beat a "rival" that is 2-10 or 4-9 or whatever doesn't have meaning for me. To say we beat good teams with winning records looks and sounds better. To each their own.


There are 11 other teams on the schedule each year to do that with. Not my rival!


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## HighNDry

I'm just glad you still consider them a rival. Seems most other U fans claim they are irrelevant and would like to pass on playing BYU in any sport.


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