# Rolling back Grand Staircase



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

http://www.sltrib.com/home/4859353-155/utah-house-republicans-push-to-eliminate

Just wondering peoples thoughts on this. I think we kind of know where I stand. I don't know that Trump can or will roll back the Grand Staircase but Mike Noel is advocating reversing it completely according to some quotes. If they want to roll back Bears Ears, go ahead and do it, but Grand Staircase has been protected for 20 years now, lets keep it that way.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

I'll go first so you can tell me everything that I'm wrong on.

1) Bears Ears ink isn't dry and it should be eliminated. Do the process right and protect what's worry and leave the rest as it was.

2) Grand Staircase is done. Move on.

3) Mike Noel is a tool. 

4) Pass federal legislation which requires congressional approval for any monument over 5,000 acres. WY and AK already have that clause. Backlash WY after FDR created Teton and AK after Carter created 57M in monuments.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

OriginalOscar said:


> I'll go first so you can tell me everything that I'm wrong on.
> 
> 1) Bears Ears ink isn't dry and it should be eliminated. Do the process right and protect what's worry and leave the rest as it was.
> 
> ...


OO, I actually agree with your post 100%. I thing GS should remain. If Bears Ears is erased, I would support going back to how it was rather than see Bishops bill become law. I even believe it would be just fine changing the antiquities act to from this point forward need approval if it's over like 5,000 acres.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Grand Staircase was done by Clinton to lock up the coal which would have competed with the Chinese coal exports. Land can be multi use and still protect wildlife


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> Grand Staircase was done by Clinton to lock up the coal which would have competed with the Chinese coal exports. Land can be multi use and still protect wildlife


This is very true, but Grand Staircase has been a monument for 20 years now, I enjoy it every year and would not support it being reversed. I also doubt with litigation that's sure to even push back on the Bears Ears monument it is likely to get done within 4 years. Grand Staircase standing for even longer would end up in a huge legal battle as well. It will be interesting to say the least. So far Trump has done some good and some bad things, I'm sure we have interesting things to come.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Grand Staircase is a frickin mess. I resent the designation with every fiber of my being. 
Protection you say? I say that's horse shiz and you know it! Since it's holy federal protection the area is being destroyed by all the earthy crunchy granola hippies that want to claim they care about criptobiotic crust. They leave so much trash on the monument, it disgusts me. Don't even get me started on how the hidden Indian ruins I know about are being vandalized by ignorant fools. Why? Nobody on God's green earth had ever heard of Escalante until ol Bill dedicated it from AZ. Now every retard with a bota bag within a thousand miles comes down to hike and leave their crap all over the place and etch their names in the sandstone. 

Why don't you ask me how I feel?


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Oh and before you think I'm talking outta my arse, I have spent my entire life down there and have ties to the monument from its original settlement. So this is a very passionate topic for me if you can't tell.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It does often amaze me that those that harp the loudest about wanting the land clean and pristine are often the ones that trash it the most.

I see it quite often in wilderness areas. You would think that if you can pack in all that food and toilet paper that you could pack out the empty wrappers, cans, and water bottles along with burring your used paper and s41t. 

And don't even get me going on what I think of your dogs that are running along the trails without a leash or a lot of times no collar. I like dogs but I don't want them running through my camp and tearing up my garbage sacks. Not to mention what they do naturally all over the place.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Critter, I have thought about your comment a lot since last night.

I realize that I am painting a broad stroke when I claim that all tree hugging nut jobs with hairy legged women in flannel are the ones who litter. But it sure is interesting to see how many I have come across over the years (both on the monument, and in other places) have left more garbage and waste than others visiting the same area. I cant explain why they do what they do, but it is so weird. Oddly the most common thing I see them leave behind are those gel energy pack wrappers. Those things seem to be made of mylar and likely never biodegrade.

The biggest detriment to an area is publicity in my observation. Creating a monument becomes a beacon to follow for so many would-be adventurers seeking something new. Now let me be clear that there is nothing wrong with wanting to experience something new, but that beacon attracts all sorts of people. From the respectful to the ignorant.

On the flip side - I have been searching for years to find a specific Indian ruin that I have heard lore of for most of my life. This ruin is well documented by the BLM and when I have talked to someone who knows about it, I have been told that in order to protect this site, their policy is not to share information about it. Huh.... isn't that interesting? To protect a site, their policy is not to share information? Then why in the hel! do we broadcast a sensitive area to all of the world by making it a monument?!

Grrrr. It just boggles my mind.

Ok, now lets step back. Another argument has been made that the monument designation protects the landscape from depleting natural resources. Coal was mentioned above. The monument is rich in coal and other resources of value so I can theoretically support limiting mining in certain areas. But if you take a step back, there are areas that could have simply been denied permits without drawing attention to the whole kit and caboodle.

Further, does anyone know what one of the largest industries is for Escalante? Logging. So how can we block one use of natural resources and allow the use of another? That is lopsided politics at its finest there people!

Bottom line - the monument isn't going anywhere. What is done is done. But what we need to stand up for is the absolute denunciation of establishing new monuments if we truly want to protect an area. Bear's Ears will soon enough start seeing an influx of traffic from the curious that have never heard of the place until recently and now the trash will slowly start piling up, artifacts will slowly be discovered and stolen, native American sites will become exposed and common knowledge, kids will carve their names in ruins and walls, and the land will soon be worse off than it ever would have been if we just kept our mouths shut.



OriginalOscar said:


> I'll go first so you can tell me everything that I'm wrong on.
> 
> 2) Grand Staircase is done. Move on.


 I agree that it is done. But I sure hope that we learned something from it!

Ok, stepping of my high horse and will try to stop ranting about this today.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Bax Im glad yor passionate on the subject. While I agree the designation was politically driven and not exactly right I enjoy the area every time I go there which is several times a year. As for litter, I do run into some, but I run into a lot more of it everywhere I go now. It sickens me too. I've ran into the nature walkers with the troubled youth a few times and found plenty of their trash, but I haven't really felt it's much worse than anywhere else I go these days. I think it's an amazing area and would rather see it "protected" than other things that could happen to it. Mike Noel as a possibility for BLM director should scare anyone who enjoys or BLM lands.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I think it's an amazing area and would rather see it "protected" than other things that could happen to it.


That's the double edged sword that has been plaguing me for years.

Protection is so subjective. It closes one door, and opens unrecognized secret passage ways. While doing nothing could be just as bad.

Did you know that Hole in the Rock Rd was once so rough that reaching Hole in the Rock required extra high clearance vehicles? The first trip I took out there was so rough and slow moving that we left at 7:00am and didn't make it back to town until sometime around dinner! Now the road is so smooth that you could probably drive a Honda Civic all the way to the end.

The side roads can eat a Jeep for breakfast in some areas though. So I guess its nice that other places are still rough to get to.

I am just so saddened by how the monument brought the wrong attention to the area.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Bax* said:


> Oh and before you think I'm talking outta my arse, I have spent my entire life down there and have ties to the monument from its original settlement. So this is a very passionate topic for me if you can't tell.


And that is exactly why I don't like the Bears Ears designation. There are a few generations of mine that tie back to Blanding.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, it has nothing to do with keeping certain resource development out.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

High Desert Elk said:


> And that is exactly why I don't like the Bears Ears designation. There are a few generations of mine that tie back to Blanding.
> 
> I've said it once and I'll say it again, it has nothing to do with keeping certain resource development out.


And that is where you and I drop the mic!


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

OriginalOscar said:


> I'll go first so you can tell me everything that I'm wrong on.
> 
> 1) Bears Ears ink isn't dry and it should be eliminated. Do the process right and protect what's worry and leave the rest as it was.
> 
> ...


Bax makes good points. What was wrong 20 years ago with Grand Staircase is still wrong. It would be good to pick at that scab! Sorry for the analogy but it seemed fitting.

On a related note you might enjoy jumping into discussion over on HuntTalk. Someone with legit experience of problems and changes with designation of a National Monument would be insightful.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Bax* said:


> Ok, now lets step back. Another argument has been made that the monument designation protects the landscape from depleting natural resources. Coal was mentioned above. The monument is rich in coal and other resources of value so I can theoretically support limiting mining in certain areas. But if you take a step back, there are areas that could have simply been denied permits without drawing attention to the whole kit and caboodle.


I have spent my entire life in that area of the state too....And, I gotta disagree! I love the designation--despite the increased traffic--and thank God all the time that Bill designated it!

The Grand Staircase holds the nations largest coal field and also large deposits of both oil and uranium. Basically, the whole Kaiparowits plateau could be mined for coal. The plan prior to the designation was to have about 150 mines opened up! 150! Think the quality of roads on the monument has improved because of the designation....what do you think would happen if all that mining began to happen? Don't you think the number and quality of roads would improve dramatically? Speaking of roads, did you know that Garfield County has been trying to pave the Hole-in-the-rock road....and the only thing keeping them from doing it is the BLM and the monument designation.

Sorry, but I ain't buying what you are selling...


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

wyoming2utah said:


> I have spent my entire life in that area of the state too....And, I gotta disagree! I love the designation--despite the increased traffic--and thank God all the time that Bill designated it!
> 
> The Grand Staircase holds the nations largest coal field and also large deposits of both oil and uranium. Basically, the whole Kaiparowits plateau could be mined for coal. The plan prior to the designation was to have about 150 mines opened up! 150! Think the quality of roads on the monument has improved because of the designation....what do you think would happen if all that mining began to happen? Don't you think the number and quality of roads would improve dramatically? Speaking of roads, did you know that Garfield County has been trying to pave the Hole-in-the-rock road....and the only thing keeping them from doing it is the BLM and the monument designation.
> 
> Sorry, but I ain't buying what you are selling...


 Glad to see that there is a fellow Moqui fan here. There are few people that know what they are talking about on GSE topics and although we disagree, I think we agree that we are passionate about the area and don't want to turn it into a smoldering wasteland (unless we are talking about the burning coal beds, those are kind of cool).

Where I have the most heartburn about the area is the broad brush that covered more area than was necessary. Note the attached geological survey map.

Mineral exploration is something that will forever be a piece of humanity, so I cant categorically state that we have to shut down all mineral mining in the area, but if you look at the referenced map and where the vast majority of coal, uranium and other mineral deposits are located, they are well off the beaten path and are not on easily accessible from Hole In the Rock Rd where the highest level of interest lies to protect.

The West side of Fifty Mile Ridge has very little attraction to the general public and infinitely lower traffic due to the rugged terrain and also happens to be where the minerals in question are found. The issue lies with the SIZE of the designation, not the concept. And I think High Desert Elk would agree with this for Bear's Ears as well. No doubt certain areas should be protected, but that much? I question that logic immensely.

My argument is simply this - you cannot block use of select natural resources while allowing others. The double standard that Washington has imposed makes no sense. Be consistent, or be gone. Forcing an agenda on the locals from 2100 miles away is asinine. They (we) know more about our home than some group of Washington Bureaucrats who have never set foot on the monument (I refuse to capitalize that word BTW). State and local officials should always be allowed input on where and how a monument or governmental restrictions can be instituted.

Our differences aside -

Yes, I did know that there have been proposals to pave Hole In the Rock Rd which I also obstinately oppose. Added traffic = added degradation of an area. I am already seeing some slick rock areas with so much shoe rubber wearing off that these sections look like areas of Moab that have tire tracks blackening the stone. I have sent several messages to Garfield and Kane counties expressing my disapproval of any developed roads.

I so badly want the traffic to shrink, but I know it will only become heavier over time.

On a side note - I cannot believe how many people I have helped over the years in the monument that came ill prepared for the climate and conditions. This is some very harsh and unforgiving country. Be smart, be prepared for contingencies when you go into the desert people. Bring extra water, make sure your spare tire is in good working condition. Bring sunscreen. Wear appropriate clothing. And above all, be cautious. One little fall could kill you and no one would find you for a very long time.

I am glad that you are passionate about the area Wyo. And although we disagree on the nuances of the monument designation, I hope that you and I can influence a positive change in the way the area is managed.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

First time to Hole In The Rock was about 1963, a person was better off in a Wileys, International or a Powerwagen. We made it in a station wagon. Next trip was 1974 in a motor home. Talk of asphalt has been going on for years, personally I wouldn't mind seeing it. It's a tough road for the old people who feel they need to see this area due to family, heritage or history, myself included...my grandfather made the original journey to Bluff through here. 
BTW Bax*, I was able to see Lake Powell before it was a lake. Drove Highway 276 all the way across without taking the ferry. ;-)


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> And that is exactly why I don't like the Bears Ears designation. There are a few generations of mine that tie back to Blanding.
> 
> I've said it once and I'll say it again, it has nothing to do with keeping certain resource development out.


Lots of history here I would imagine. I'd like to hear more...

Besides, litter in the Bears Ears would be of a different sorts than Granola wrappers. Try Gatorade bottles and empty Bud Light cans.


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## Utmuddguy (Aug 25, 2013)

Leave it alone and Herbert and his buddies won't be able to sell it off for "private development" as Herbie stated.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

.45 said:


> ...Try Gatorade bottles and empty Bud Light cans.


yep, it's already there...

I think Bax up above in his most recent post sums it up quite nicely: the concept behind the designation does not require that much ground.

Also, the BLM or USFS can implement a moratorium to keep mineral development of any kind from taking place. I know because there are some in certain areas in my hometown neck of the woods.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Here is an interesting read on our recent discussion:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=43007492&ni...shoulder-to-shoulder-opposition-on-bears-ears


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Bax* said:


> Here is an interesting read on our recent discussion:
> 
> http://www.ksl.com/?sid=43007492&ni...shoulder-to-shoulder-opposition-on-bears-ears


Similar to an article that I posted a few days ago in the other thread from the Farmington Daily Times.


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