# All that money



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Just sitting to ponder the sheer amount of money that we and fellow outdoorsman spend each year on wildlife and conservation has to be a giant number. Our DWR brings in around $78 million per year. Then you have federal duck stamps, state conservation programs, tons of non profit groups both sportsmen groups and non-sportsmen groups. There's so much money floating around it kind of amazes me more isn't accomplished. Where does all the money go? It's an expensive world but it still amazes me that with state, federal, and probably 10 differents sportsmen groups in our state alone doing work we don't see more done . There's definetly work being done I'm not saying that , but there's a ton of money floating around out there in the name of conservation for sure. I feel there wildlife should be benefiting more than they are sometimes.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

DWR takes in $78 million/year? I'd like to see the source on that number.

EDIT: Here it is #1I
http://wildlife.utah.gov/about-us/64-what-we-do/about-us/191-financial-overview.html


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Hunting and fishing in general are big business. Just think how much you spend on camping fees per year state park or national forest then multiplie that buy thousands and thousand of people. Then think how much you spend in gas supplies gear food licenses . That is a whole lot of money that the AVERAGE HUNTER SPENDS. BUT FOR SOME REASON THE AVERAGE HUNTER GETS OVERLOOKED BUY ALL OF THE POLITICAL CRAP THAT GOES WITH THESE ORGANIZATIONS AND STATE PROGRAMS


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## Lobowatcher (Nov 25, 2014)

Colorado: $194,000,000

Granted that figure includes outdoor recreation/parks: but still.

http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/About/Reports/StatewideFactSheet.pdf


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## Lobowatcher (Nov 25, 2014)

hazmat said:


> Hunting and fishing in general are big business. Just think how much you spend on camping fees per year state park or national forest then multiplie that buy thousands and thousand of people. Then think how much you spend in gas supplies gear food licenses . That is a whole lot of money that the AVERAGE HUNTER SPENDS. *BUT FOR SOME REASON THE AVERAGE HUNTER GETS OVERLOOKED BUY ALL OF THE POLITICAL CRAP THAT GOES WITH THESE ORGANIZATIONS AND STATE PROGRAMS*


Might that be due to the overwhelming lack of involvement and APATHY that is so prevalent amidst the hordes of 'average hunters'? They just don't seem to care enough to make a real difference and be heard.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

hazmat said:


> Hunting and fishing in general are big business. Just think how much you spend on camping fees per year state park or national forest then multiplie that buy thousands and thousand of people. Then think how much you spend in gas supplies gear food licenses . That is a whole lot of money that the AVERAGE HUNTER SPENDS. BUT FOR SOME REASON THE AVERAGE HUNTER GETS OVERLOOKED BUY ALL OF THE POLITICAL CRAP THAT GOES WITH THESE ORGANIZATIONS AND STATE PROGRAMS


 They're overlooked because you/they/we don't speak up! We've been trying to tell ya'll that your opinion matters, but ONLY IF YOU SPEAK UP! Emails, faxes, phone calls, letters, survey responses, participation in DWR habitat/wildlife projects, attendance at open houses, attendance at RACs and WB meetings, visits to the DWR offices, etc. make more of a difference than you think they do.


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## hemionus (Aug 23, 2009)

You wanna see a fraction of the projects look here. www.wri.utah.gov


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## bow_dude (Aug 20, 2009)

"Might that be due to the overwhelming lack of involvement and APATHY that is so prevalent amidst the hordes of 'average hunters'? They just don't seem to care enough to make a real difference and be heard".

Hunting and fishing is just a pass time for most of us. It is not life or death, only a hobby. Most things in life sit much higher on the priority list. As much as I enjoy participating when I can... Never will it become a priority over family, work or church. We have elected officials who are supposed to be minding the farm. I have to trust that they will do their job, just as I will do mine in those areas I have responsibility and stewardship for. Apathy and and lack of involvement is what you may perceive is the problem, but you are wrong in your judgement. Understand that what you place importance on in life most likely is not the same for me and visa versa. That is what keeps things in balance and makes the world go round.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

hemionus said:


> You wanna see a fraction of the projects look here. www.wri.utah.gov


I know projects are being done , but with the sheer amount of money being raised through all portals, I still don't think it's enough with how many millions filter through because of wildlife EVERY YEAR. The amount of money is more than I could imagine and yet there isn't a big rush to protect and preserve lots of lands. (Especially private) with conservation easments or purchases to ensure it into the future without being developed . I think at the point that were at , the more land we can protect the further we are ahead and I just don't see a lot of it . I understand there's a lot that goes into it, but doing it now instead of losing areas forever is very worth the trouble. They're worried about property taxes, if worry about the billions in economic loss as we start to lose our hunting heritidge because we were to greedy to give our wildlife a future.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

bow_dude said:


> "Might that be due to the overwhelming lack of involvement and APATHY that is so prevalent amidst the hordes of 'average hunters'? They just don't seem to care enough to make a real difference and be heard".
> 
> Hunting and fishing is just a pass time for most of us. It is not life or death, only a hobby. Most things in life sit much higher on the priority list. As much as I enjoy participating when I can... Never will it become a priority over family, work or church. We have elected officials who are supposed to be minding the farm. I have to trust that they will do their job, just as I will do mine in those areas I have responsibility and stewardship for. Apathy and and lack of involvement is what you may perceive is the problem, but you are wrong in your judgement. Understand that what you place importance on in life most likely is not the same for me and visa versa. That is what keeps things in balance and makes the world go round.


Yes but money clouds even the clearest view. And if you sit back and put no effort towards what you enjoy rest assure it will be gone. Higher priorities , sure , but rendering it no priority is why we have no voice or future . If you enjoy it , you should find enough time to care. Emails and phone calls don't exert near the time or energy as some people make it seem. With no voice your just a blind follower , we all have one let it be heard.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Lobowatcher said:


> Might that be due to the overwhelming lack of involvement and APATHY that is so prevalcomplaininhe hordes of 'average hunters'? They just don't seem to care enough to make a real difference and be heard.


That is exactly true. SOME people just dont care enough. Point in hand there was a thread on mm that people were complaining about the wasatch cow tags/ elk slaughter going on. Anyways somebody posted the contact info of the head honcho at the dwr. There were only a few of us that actually took the time to voice our concerns. However this is where these conservation orgs need to step it up.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

hazmat said:


> That is exactly true. SOME people just dont care enough. Point in hand there was a thread on mm that people were complaining about the wasatch cow tags/ elk slaughter going on. Anyways somebody posted the contact info of the head honcho at the dwr. There were only a few of us that actually took the time to voice our concerns. However this is where these conservation orgs need to step it up.


And guess what even though it was just a few voices something is actually happening about it. Because of the voices they heard, they collared many elk on the unit to see where they go when hunting pressure is applied and why hunters aren't seeing the elk they are saying are there. Can you imagine if we all spoke up how much would get done? But people act as though it is so out of their way to write an email or make a phone call, or attend 1-2 RAC's a year that you care about. It really doesn't take all that much time, but at least let your voice be heard on things you care about that affect your hobbies, or what you enjoy doing. If you just had a voice a few times a year a lot would get better, and more weight would be given to our concerns. But its easy to play it off and still want to do those things but have no intentions on making them better no matter how simple it may be. Just make excuses as to why we can't do things or make a difference and nothing will get done. Thanks to all of you who do weigh in on subjects and attend RACs.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

bow_dude said:


> "Might that be due to the overwhelming lack of involvement and APATHY that is so prevalent amidst the hordes of 'average hunters'? They just don't seem to care enough to make a real difference and be heard".
> 
> Hunting and fishing is just a pass time for most of us. It is not life or death, only a hobby. Most things in life sit much higher on the priority list. As much as I enjoy participating when I can... Never will it become a priority over family, work or church. We have elected officials who are supposed to be minding the farm. I have to trust that they will do their job, just as I will do mine in those areas I have responsibility and stewardship for. Apathy and and lack of involvement is what you may perceive is the problem, but you are wrong in your judgement. Understand that what you place importance on in life most likely is not the same for me and visa versa. That is what keeps things in balance and makes the world go round.


The reality is that if/when things don't go your way, you get zero opportunity to complain. There are lots of people that get involved that I would wager value their families, work, and church just as much as you do. In fact, my church strongly encourages me to be involved in positive civic activities.

Having tried to be involved in the public process in regards to extremely important sportsmen issues, I can confirm 100% the reason why the average sportsman is disregarded is because the average sportsman thinks other people will take care of it for them, and they do nothing. EFA is dead on with this one. Tens of thousands of hunters in this state. The Wildlife Board and RACs hear from what....200 of us? Maybe?

The world is run by those that show up. That's for sure!


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

If anybody wants to get involved and make a difference it is no that hard. The DWR has tons of projects that are always needing help. Go to the dedicated hunter hours section and look up a project. Whether you have tag or not they will not turn you away.

The orgs on the other hand can be another story. More often than not what they really want is your money. Not necessarily your input. Many organizations aren't in it for Joe Hunter and it seems that most of the ones that claim to be can't organize a two car funeral procession. 


The more I have tried to get involved with organizations the more frustrated I have become. It gets to be more satisfying just getting out and picking up others trash.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Due to work and life I can't travel to attend many RACs but I send emails to the members of my region as well as copies to utah wildlife board members. I've also contacted many people about public land issues. I didn't even miss any work, family, or friend time and I got an email back saying thank you every time from the director of the DWR for the input. They do like to hear from us, don't expect someone else to pick up slack. It's not so much criticism as much as it is encouragement to get your voice heard. Email, call, attend, do work, whatever you have time for or do what you can . For all of us it's a hobby, but that thing we enjoy so much is under attack from a lot of directions. If you enjoy it is protect it. For the last few years I've gave my input in some form on every RAC, did dedicated hunter work , and done a lot of research on what's ahead and problems our wildlife face, I'm glad I did.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> If anybody wants to get involved and make a difference it is no that hard. The DWR has tons of projects that are always nedding help. Go to the dedicated hunter hours section and look up a project. Whether you have tag or not they will not turn you away.
> 
> The orgs on the other hand can be another story. More often than not what they really want is your money. Not necessarily your input. Many organizations aren't in it for Joe Hunter and it seems that most of the ones that claim to be can't organize a two car funeral procession.
> The
> ...


I agree with you, but I do think the groups have there place. They all do some good even though certain ones waste some money and don't agree with the average hunters views. They accomplish a lot the DWR sometimes doesn't. I'm glad they're around they give a good voice and accomplish a lot for the most part.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I've been told time and time again. Its weather. 

So tell me how the average Joe should get involved and effect the weather.

Conservation groups have been the wolf in the hen house in Utah. 

Problem with conservation groups is nothing helps them recruit retain and raise funds better than you thinking that it's being done wrong and they are going to try and fix it for you.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

This concerns me greatly, and it's a subject I think about a good deal, especially when I'm actually fishing or hunting in a spot that's paid for by our fees and taxes. Having only been into fishing and hunting for about a year and a half, I haven't had the time to find things to get involved in.

Here's the thing: we pay for the majority of conservation efforts in America, but groups that are opposed to our way of life are the most visible organizations in conservation efforts. As time goes on their propaganda is affecting the popularity of hunting and fishing so they have less money to spend, then they increase fees for licenses and stamps to maintain operating costs (just watch, the next thing will be a steep increase on taxes for firearms and ammunition) and sportsmen are pushed away from the sport. Meanwhile there are people lobbying hard to create refuges that are closed to hunting, and to close hunting areas, using the money we give the state to represent our interests.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

#1deer 1-i said:


> just sitting to ponder the sheer amount of money that we and fellow outdoorsman spend each year on wildlife and conservation has to be a giant number. Our dwr brings in around $78 million per year. Then you have federal duck stamps, state conservation programs, tons of non profit groups both sportsmen groups and non-sportsmen groups. There's so much money floating around it kind of amazes me more isn't accomplished. Where does all the money go? It's an expensive world but it still amazes me that with state, federal, and probably 10 differents sportsmen groups in our state alone doing work we don't see more done . There's definetly work being done i'm not saying that , but there's a ton of money floating around out there in the name of conservation for sure. I feel there wildlife should be benefiting more than they are sometimes.


And having said all that, you are the one that is always supporting increases in license fees and stamp fees. Fuh! Let's bring back a habitat stamp, let's have a state duck stamp, I'm going to join every slam program available. Let's jack up the fees for everything, this will surely make a difference we will all see down the road. Right? Fuh!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> And having said all that, you are the one that is always supporting increases in license fees and stamp fees. Fuh! Let's bring back a habitat stamp, let's have a state duck stamp, I'm going to join every slam program available. Let's jack up the fees for everything, this will surely make a difference we will all see down the road. Right? Fuh!


I would support any stamp , money , donations or programs that are going directly back to wildlife . My concern isn't all the money being spent my concern is if all the money that's supposed to is hitting the ground as it should be.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I would support any stamp , money , donations or programs that are going directly back to wildlife . My concern isn't all the money being spent my concern is if all the money that's supposed to is hitting the ground as it should be.


All of the money can't possible hit the ground. Not even close. You need to get realistic. That or show them the error of their ways.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> All of the money can't possible hit the ground. Not even close. You need to get realistic. That or show them the error of their ways.


With the DWR especially I understand, they have offices, employees, vehicles, and other services, I feel they let plenty hit the ground. But with that money, plus all the conservation groups (which yes I get also have costs involved) is there really enough money hitting the ground that all that isn't hitting the ground is justified? It just doesn't seem like that many millions of dollars are spent every year on wildlife projects, land acquisitions, and land protections. Either that or the money could be being spent inefficiently. Or maybe I am wrong and costs are very high for non-profits, conservation programs, etc.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> With the DWR especially I understand, they have offices, employees, vehicles, and other services, I feel they let plenty hit the ground. But with that money, plus all the conservation groups (which yes I get also have costs involved) is there really enough money hitting the ground that all that isn't hitting the ground is justified? It just doesn't seem like that many millions of dollars are spent every year on wildlife projects, land acquisitions, and land protections. Either that or the money could be being spent inefficiently. Or maybe I am wrong and costs are very high for non-profits, conservation programs, etc.


Pull some numbers, show some stats and back up your speculations. Saying that something "just doesn't seem" or that what you "feel" doesn't carry much for merit. It's poking a stick at a rock to see if something rattles.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Pull some numbers, show some stats and back up your speculations. Saying that something "just doesn't seem" or that what you "feel" doesn't carry much for merit. It's poking a stick at a rock to see if something rattles.


I'm in the process of getting a few GRAMA requests right now. I also did get a GRAMA request back on the number of WMAs purchased over the last 10 years. There have been 2 purchases both of relatively small proportions. Some organizations can be much harder to find and obtain specific information.


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## wingmanck (Sep 7, 2007)

Sounds like his thread is starting to get on the right track - find out how much of that $78m actually goes back into the wildlife fund and NOT the general fund and I think you'll be pretty amazed how much actually gets done with it. In other words, if all of the money collected for outdoor activities via fees, taxes, etc stayed within the DNR, and wasn't being poached by countless other unrelated state entities, I'm pretty sure things would seem better, even though IMHO all things considered, they aren't that bad.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

wingmanck said:


> Sounds like his thread is starting to get on the right track - find out how much of that $78m actually goes back into the wildlife fund and NOT the general fund and I think you'll be pretty amazed how much actually gets done with it. In other words, if all of the money collected for outdoor activities via fees, taxes, etc stayed within the DNR, and wasn't being poached by countless other unrelated state entities, I'm pretty sure things would seem better, even though IMHO all things considered, they aren't that bad.


Utah Code Title 23, Chapter 14, Section 13 currently reads:

"*23-14-13. Wildlife Resources Account.*
(1) There is created a restricted account within the General Fund known as the "Wildlife Resources Account".

(2) The following money shall be deposited into the Wildlife Resources Account:

(a) revenue from the sale of licenses, permits, tags, and certificates of registration issued under this title or a rule or proclamation of the Wildlife Board, except as otherwise provided by this title;

(b) revenue from the sale, lease, rental or other granting of rights to real or personal property acquired with revenue specified in Subsection (2)(a);

(c) revenue from fines and forfeitures for violations of this title or any other rule, proclamation or order of the wildlife Board, minus court costs not to exceed the schedule adopted by the Judicial Council;

(d) funds appropriated *from* the General Fund by the Legislature pursuant to Section 23-19-39;

(e) other money received by the division under any provision of this title, except as otherwise provided by this title;

(f) contributions made in accordance with Section 59-10-1305; and

(g) interest, dividends, or other income earned of account money.

(3) Money in the Wildlife Resources Account *shall be used for the administration of this title.*"

However, I just noticed at the bottom of the text that there is a proposed 2015 Utah State Senate bill (SB-13) that affects this section. I'll look it up and edit this post.

Edit: The proposed bill deals with the Utah State Income Tax contribution to non-game wildlife and appears to allow the State Tax Commission to remove the designation as to where the contribution is spent, but only if the total contributions to non-game wildlife are less than $30,000 for 3 years in a row. I think it's pretty much a non-issue.

Also, regarding the return of unused DWR funds, we have:

"*23-14-16. Unexpended fund balances converted to general fund account.*

The state auditor and director of the Division of Finance shall, at the close of the fiscal year, convert *into the Wildlife Resources Account* in the General Fund all unexpended balances of the wildlife resources fund not legally obligated by contract or appropriated by the Wildlife Board for capitol outlay projects or other programs which may extend beyond the close of the fiscal year."

In other words, ALL the money collected by the Division of Wildlife Resources from any source stays in their restricted account and is used only for Title 23 expenses.


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