# Big money hunts



## neckcollar (Dec 30, 2007)

I understand that utah takes in alot of money for there Big time draw hunts. But do you think its fair that the wealthy get to hunt our states auction draws year after year, just because they can afford it? I have seen the same guy on mossback hunt utah year after year after year. I just wish more people could get the same oppertunity, without the price tag. Maybe we could start charging a trophy fee for out of state hunters, :lol: that come in and kill bulls over 350 and let them go through the same draw process as the rest of us. Just a thought


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Would you feel the same way if you had the brains and ambition to work hard and earn the income necessary to fund these "high dollar" hunts?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

People that are paying high dollars for tags are helping the average joe hunter by keeping the price of tags down.


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## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

Loke said:


> Would you feel the same way if you had the brains and ambition to work hard and earn the income necessary to fund these "high dollar" hunts?


LMAO


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## neckcollar (Dec 30, 2007)

Loke said:


> Would you feel the same way if you had the brains and ambition to work hard and earn the income necessary to fund these "high dollar" hunts?


Do you feel like you have the brains and ambition to just lie down to big money? They make more money so they sould be able to hunt big bulls every year? I feel like we all enjoy hunting, what gives them the right to have an advantage just because of wealth? Isn't the point system what makes the draw a fair chance, now its a fair chance with benifits if you can pay for them?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

neckcollar said:


> Loke said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You make it sound like money gives you 'perks' or something, I'm sure that just applies in Utah for hunting. One would NEVER believe money affords one MORE opportunities, would they?

*When* I have the 'expendable' cash to afford such hunts, you can bet your backside I WILL buy at least one 'money' tag. And, I won't feel the slightest bit guilty about it either. 8)


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I have met some of these people that you criticize. They worked hard and made successes of themselves. They spend hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars per year in support of wildlife and hunting. And then they share their experiences with those of us who would otherwise never get the chance. How much money and time have you contributed to wildlife and hunting? And have you invited strangers into your home to share the stories of your hunts and travels around the world? Or do you simply complain that someone else has more than you, and shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labors? If the DWR is able to sell a few tags for several thousand times the amount of a general season tag, and keep the cost down for the rest of us, then I say "Go for it". The reason we have these 400+ bull elk, is because of the trophy hunters that are willing to pay an outfitter for a chance at a big one. If you or I are lucky enough to draw a tag, we are the beneficiaries of the "big money hunters" that fund the efforts to manage our herds for the trophy animals.
The point system is not there to make it "fair". It is there so that the DWR can limit hunter numbers, and still give everyone the "hope" that they will get a tag, and keep people interested in the hunts. You keep throwing in the cash, collecting those preference points, and someday you will have thrown down enough cash to guarentee youself a "trophy" hunt, too.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> People that are paying high dollars for tags are helping the average joe hunter by keeping the price of tags down.


Are you serious!!!! Do you believe this, not trying to laugh out load to bad, but have you not seen an increase in tags over the years........ And to boot the $$$$ tags are going for more and more each year... Did not the app. fee go up?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Are you serious!!!! Do you believe this, not trying to laugh out load to bad, but have you not seen an increase in tags over the years........ And to boot the $$$$ tags are going for more and more each year... Did not the app. fee go up?


Yes and how much more would it go up if hunters combined had to pay 6,000,000 dollars plus?


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Loke said:


> I have met some of these people that you criticize. They worked hard and made successes of themselves. They spend hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars per year in support of wildlife and hunting. And then they share their experiences with those of us who would otherwise never get the chance. How much money and time have you contributed to wildlife and hunting? *And have you invited strangers into your home to share the stories of your hunts and travels around the world?* Or do you simply complain that someone else has more than you, and shouldn't be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labors? *If the DWR is able to sell a few tags for several thousand times the amount of a general season tag, and keep the cost down for the rest of us, then I say "Go for it". **The reason we have these 400+ bull elk, is because of the trophy hunters that are willing to pay an outfitter for a chance at a big one.* If you or I are lucky enough to draw a tag, we are the beneficiaries of the "big money hunters" that fund the efforts to manage our herds for the trophy animals.


 :shock: WOW :shock:


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

So TAK, how does hiring an outfitter to guide one on an elk hunt differ from someone hiring you to "guide" them on a pheasant "hunt" where they shoot 200 birds a day?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

In the future big money will be the "Achilles Heel" of hunting as we know it. Or knew it...

Any time you add a *$* to anything it corrupts it. Hunting is going, and will continue to go in this direction until only the very rich will hunt. Just like in Europe.

$$$$$ is *NOT* a crutch for proper game management. By the time the retards running the fish and game figure this out it will be too late for all of us.

.........Shut up Pro! :twisted:

.........................You too Coyote Slayer! *\-\*


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> So TAK, how does hiring an outfitter to guide one on an elk hunt differ from someone hiring you to "guide" them on a pheasant "hunt" where they shoot 200 birds a day?


Or they hunt pen raised birds at the pheasant farm and pay to have 10 birds stocked for them prior to their hunt.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> In the future big money will be the "Achilles Heel" of hunting as we know it. Or knew it...
> 
> Any time you add a $ to anything it corrupts it. Hunting is going, and will continue to go in this direction until only the very rich will hunt. Just like in Europe.
> 
> ...


Oh be nice TEX and you don't know what your talking about here. Having mule deer costs money. Habitat projects cost MONEY. If you want people to invest their money then you better have quality animals in the field.


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## RackAttak (Jul 15, 2008)

its more fun to do it yourself anyway isnt it? at least for myself i find it more rewarding than paying big bucks to have someone show you where the animals are and then all you do is step outta the truck and pull the trigger. sounds like a blast to me. haha.

RackAttak(.)(.)


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> In the future big money will be the "Achilles Heel" of hunting as we know it. Or knew it...
> 
> Any time you add a *$* to anything it corrupts it. Hunting is going, and will continue to go in this direction until only the very rich will hunt. Just like in Europe.
> 
> $$$$$ is *NOT* a crutch for proper game management. By the time the retards running the fish and game figure this out it will be too late for all of us.


I don't believe that hunting is the only thing that will be corrupted by money. Soon only the rich will enjoy any of the freedoms that we all enjoy. Or think that we enjoy. They are all on borrowed time.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> its more fun to do it yourself anyway isnt it? at least for myself i find it more rewarding than paying big bucks to have someone show you where the animals are and then all you do is step outta the truck and pull the trigger. sounds like a blast to me. haha.
> 
> RackAttak(.)(.)


Sounds like you have no idea about these high dollars hunts. If the hunters just needs to step out of his truck and pull the trigger then these animals must be thick and even the average joe should be pulling up and shooting animals just like the rich guys.

If the rich guy can drive down the road in his business suit and step out and shoot a 400 class bull then the average joe should have no problem either. Everyone wins.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

TAK said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > People that are paying high dollars for tags are helping the average joe hunter by keeping the price of tags down.
> ...


LE tags HAVE increased, and the cost of a general season elk/deer tag HAS decreased. What's to laugh about that? :?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

RackAttak said:


> its more fun to do it yourself anyway isnt it? at least for myself i find it more rewarding than paying big bucks to have someone show you where the animals are and then all you do is step outta the truck and pull the trigger. sounds like a blast to me. haha.
> 
> RackAttak(.)(.)


How would you know? Have you ever 'paid big bucks' for a guided hunt, or are you simply *ass*uming?

TEX, money does NOT corrupt, it merely 'exposes' corruption and lose morals. Like it or not, in reality world, not some fairy tale pixie world where all people are under 5'7", money IS required to manage wildlife. You can either have it funded through socialist like means such as "equal pay, equal play", or through capitalist like means such as "a few getting 'extra' while funding the BULK of the costs". I myself am a capitalist through and through, and I HATE socialism to the core. Like Europe? Isn't that old bumper sticker faded into oblivion yet? :? Come up with a new catch phrase, that one was old in the 70's.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Loke said:


> So TAK, how does hiring an outfitter to guide one on an elk hunt differ from someone hiring you to "guide" them on a pheasant "hunt" where they shoot 200 birds a day?


Not sure what your asking here? Are you thinking that the bird price is Cheaper if they have a guide and having a guide drives down the prices for those without?
But I will tell you this, I can't afford to hunt where I guide! Those who have the $$$$ drive up the prices!!!!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > So TAK, how does hiring an outfitter to guide one on an elk hunt differ from someone hiring you to "guide" them on a pheasant "hunt" where they shoot 200 birds a day?
> 
> 
> Or they hunt pen raised birds at the pheasant farm and pay to have 10 birds stocked for them prior to their hunt.


Lost me at OR!??????


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Tak you always play the part of.....I don't know what your talking about? I'm confused  Im lost :wink: When you can't come up with a better counter argument.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> TEX, money does NOT corrupt, it merely 'exposes' corruption and lose morals. Like it or not, in reality world, not some fairy tale pixie world where all people are under 5'7", money IS required to manage wildlife. You can either have it funded through socialist like means such as "equal pay, equal play", or through capitalist like means such as "a few getting 'extra' while funding the BULK of the costs". I myself am a capitalist through and through, and I HATE socialism to the core. Like Europe? Isn't that old bumper sticker faded into oblivion yet? :? Come up with a new catch phrase, that one was old in the 70's.


I thought I told you to shut up. _(O)_

If I want to feel a politician pee in my ear and tell me it's raining I'll turn on CNN.



> TEX, money does NOT corrupt, it merely 'exposes' corruption and lose morals.


So, more money, more corruption. Right? You just made my point for me. Thank you.



> Like it or not, in reality world, not some fairy tale pixie world where all people are under 5'7"


Whew! Thank God I'm 5'8"! :mrgreen:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Tak you always play the part of.....I don't know what your talking about? I'm confused  Im lost :wink: When you can't come up with a better counter argument.


I'd guess when YOU come up with a valid *argument* to begin with...


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I'd guess when YOU come up with a valid argument to begin with...


I will start when YOU do


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I guess when money shuts down the poor folk, then the poor folk get sneaky and still wind up eating venison. Hey, we're all thinking it... I just had to say it. 8)


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Loke and cs, the difference is that the bird farm raises and sells their own product and the hunts take place on their land.

Contrary to popular belief on this forum, Mossback and SFW do NOT own those 400+ bulls or the state and federal land they hunt them on.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Greenhead 2 said:


> Loke and cs, the difference is that the bird farm raises and sells their own product and the hunts take place on their land.
> 
> Contrary to popular belief on this forum, Mossback and SFW do NOT own those 400+ bulls or the state and federal land they hunt them on.


My point is that TAK was criticizing rich folks that pay to hunt, when he takes money from them on a pheasant "hunt". 
I am not claiming that Doyle Moss, SFW, or any other private entity owns any of our wildlife. But I do know that the management of our game herds takes a lot of money. Money that rich folks are willing to donate (by purchasing one of these auction tags) for the management of our wildlife. Through the efforts of these groups, all wildlife groups, some wildlife habitat is being protected. Not that long ago, an elk was a rare sighting in this state, and a raghorn five point was worthy to be mounted on the wall. Now if it isn't over 350 it gets a spot in the back corner of the garage. I'm just getting tired of hearing people whining about "the rich people" ruining our hunting, by buying these auction tags. A bigger concern should be the ones that are buying up the land and then closing it to hunting, or worse yet, making it the next mini ranch development.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Well stated Loke.

And Tex, you are no way 5'8", wearing you pumps you stole from the wife does NOT count.

Either a person is corrupt or not, regardless of the amount of money involved. I ask all you "rich people haters" how you suggest replacing the MILLIONS of dollars put right into habitat from these 'corrupt' people/groups? Talk is CHEAP, getting things done on the ground ISN'T!


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Its not that the DWR has no money Loke, they just don't know how to manage it!! Esplain to me why a fish cop needs to drive an Escalade to do his job near Panguitch?? Or why a fish cop in Duchesne is driving around in a new silverado super cab with leather seats? I won't bother getting into a SFW tango with ya on how that money is spent, but again TAK guides rich guys hunting a privately owned product, not publicly funded.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Its not that the DWR has no money Loke, they just don't know how to manage it!! Esplain to me why a fish cop needs to drive an Escalade to do his job near Panguitch?? Or why a fish cop in Duchesne is driving around in a new silverado super cab with leather seats? I won't bother getting into a SFW tango with ya on how that money is spent, but again TAK guides rich guys hunting a privately owned product, not publicly funded.


The DWR bought 20 new trucks and my friend has a tire shop and hes putting MTRs on all of them.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

The choice of vehicle would be up to the state motor pool. Perhaps they are vehicles that were confiscated from drug dealers? I'm not arguing about how the DWR spends our money. Just making a point that if it weren't for the money generated by these auction tags, we wouldn't have the resources that everyone seems to be complaining about. I'm pretty sure that the outfitters (the legal ones anyway) are required to purchase a special use permit to conduct their business on public land.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Why should they drive old crappy vehicles? It comes out of a separate budget as well. One has NOTHING to do with the other. I have yet to see DWR guys in Escalades, but if you say so it must be so.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

No the shouldn't be driving crappy vehicles, but leather in a silverado and a Escalade? C'mon!! Oh but since the great pro did not see it, it must not be so huh? I understand you guys saying its not a management issue, cause if the DWR ever figured out how to spend their money all the groups that take tags from the public would not be needed, at least in a way yall claim we need them now.


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Yes and how much more would it go up if hunters combined had to pay 6,000,000 dollars plus?


Just curious where you get the number 6,000,000 from? I'm not calling it false just looking to know. I wonder because, there is the argument that without this money from these so called high dollar hunts that we would suffer greatly due to the lack of funding for some prjects. I'm not saying that this money does not help but I think it is being hyped up to be more than it is.

As I look at the tag numbers and tag costs. Utah hunters spent well over 6,000,000 in tag fees alone. This only inlcudes general deer and elk (without archery elk tags) and LE tags. If we were to try and figure the the cost of every resident tag and the hunting permit that you have to buy just to apply for the drawings. I am sure that utahs hunters are putting double what these high dollar hunts bring in.

By the way to answer your original question in order to raise six million dollars every tag would have to be raised in the neighborhood of 20 to 30 bucks if I figured correclty.

Again I didn't say this money is not doing some (alot) of good but to hype it up like it is the only thing saving utahs wildlife is blatant disregard for the hunters of utah and probably one of the reasons so many people feel annimosty toward these types of hunts.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I didn't say it isn't so, in fact I said it must be since you said it is. Pay attention.

As for the money management thing, you got me, I would rather a few rich folks fund the bulk of habitat projects in order to keep the cost of hunting down for the average guy, over doing away with a program that has PROVEN to be very beneficial for wildlife and hunters alike and having the average guy pay for it. Guilty as charged.


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## marksman (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't have a real problem with money hunts. The way I see it is if we can sell a tag this year and use that money to add habitat to produce 1 then each year the number of elk we are producing goes up 1 but we are still only selling 1 tag. I realize that we probably don't buy enough habitat etc each year to increase our number of tags by 1 but even if we increased our tag production by 1/3 each year that means that after 6 years we would have netted the same number of the tags to the public and increased our overall production capacity by 2 tags a year.


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## ACHY (Oct 18, 2007)

Don't you just love the way these things get so far off topic? The material covering DWR truck seats? Come on! Anyway, back to the topic...

It seems that most of those who oppose these "big money hunts" see a trophy bull on the wall as a "right" granted to all citizens. Why else would they complain about it? Sure, I would like to have enough money to plop down on a trophy elk hunt year after year, but since I don't, does that mean nobody else should be able to? The opportunity to hunt really depends on an individual's resources. The more resources one has (money, time, equipment, etc.) the more opportunity to hunt. Again, huntinig is a *privilege*, not a right.

I've also heard the argument that some would prefer to do all the scouting for their hunt themselves. That is a personal choice. Why they choose to look down on those who don't is beyond me. Perhaps they see them as a sort of "lesser" hunter. When my father finally drew out for his book cliffs elk hunt last year, he hired someone who was more familiar with the area to guide him. My dad barely had enough time to hunt the opening weekend, let alone do any scouting. It was nice for him to be able to have someone else watch the elk all summer (they were doing it anyway), pick out a bull for him to try for, and lead us to it. My dad will likely never get the chance to hunt another trophy elk, and he wanted to make sure he got one worth hanging on the wall (less than 350, by the way). And I have to say, this guided hunt was probably the funnest one I have ever been on.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

A few would be nice, a few hundred is out of control. I get the theory on letting the rich pay for the poor, its a welfare system really, but a lot could be done within the DWR to save money, make money and provide more opportunity to johnny paycheck hunters. They could do this without receiving one cent from any outside group. Achy the seats have a lot to do with why some think we need big money tags.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Greenhead 2 said:


> Achy the seats have a lot to do with why some think we need big money tags.


Horse apples! One is NOT connected to the other, certainly not on leather seats.

These tags bring a great return for the investment. The Wall Street guys would get big money for such an investment/return scenario.


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## ACHY (Oct 18, 2007)

Just curious, but would you care to list some of the things that can be done within the DWR to "save money, make money, and provide more opportunity to johnny paycheck hunters"?

Also, since I am lazy and don't want to look it up (I also don't care that much, but I'm sure someone else will), how many of these "big money tags" were sold last year and for what amount? If we took all of those away and sold them to the general public at the standard rate, what would be the difference in revenue? Where do you suggest the DWR recover that cost?


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

So buying just a standard truck with AC PS hand crank windows, cloth interior would not save money over the truck I just saw Friday in Duchesne, or the Escalade in Panguitch?? If you say no, please never get anyone to invest in the market with you.

Do theses big money hunts/tags give back a great return? Financially yes, but is the money spent wisely? My opinion is no. Who really benefits from them? The rich, and a few DIY hunters, few in comparison to the amount of animals on the mountain. 

What was more necessary, the goats transplanted that very few will ever hunt except big money hunters, or was/is our deer herd in more need of that money spent that regular hunters would get the most benefit from?

I know the goats are near and dear to you Bart, don't flip, just give me a honest answer and if you say the goats please tell me why, I still don't get why they were chosen over many other things.


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## ACHY (Oct 18, 2007)

A note about the goats:

Generally with this sort of stuff, a large portion of the money comes from special interest groups and is earmarked for that. Hypothetical example: FNAWS contributes $500,000 to transplant bighorn sheep into an area. They don't want that money going to deer, they want it going to bighorn sheep. MDF does make large contributions for deer, RMEF makes large contributions for elk, SFW makes large contributions to all kinds of things, but they specify what it is used for. Mule deer money doesn't go towards bighorn sheep and money for goats does not go for deer, elk, or anything else. It goes towards goats. And none of that goes toward leather seats in trucks.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

But where did they get that money from?? Honestly I don't have a huge problem with the tags and I really could careless if someone pays a guide. My problem is when people say we need the money from these tags,we don't. And when we get this money things like goats should be towards the bottom of the to do list because very few will benefit from the transplant versus had that money went towards deer. Its the way money is handled, that's my dog in this fight on big money hunts and tags.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I am not a goat man, more of a sheep guy. :wink: 

Since I am involved in the sheep herd out here on the Stansbury I can say a few things with firsthand knowledge. FNAWS, spent several thousand dollars to transplant the herd here. Most of the money came from money tags that were SHEEP tags to begin with. Also, before they transplanted the sheep they, along with the DWR/BLM acquired grazing permits for the area. This removed domestic sheep from the public land FOREVER, which benefits deer/elk/chuckars as well as the new sheep herd. They also have lowered the number of predators on this range, predators that eat DEER. We also are in the process of improving the water availability on this range through guzzler improvements/installations. This also will benefit multiple species including deer/elk/chuckars. The elk are part of a LE unit so they don't benefit the general public I suppose, but the deer herd is part of the Central Region and DO benefit the general public. All at the expense of NOTHING to the average guy who hunts deer on the Stansbury Range. **** good return for the investment I say. 

It also has been posted here the THOUSANDS of acres on general areas improved through these tags. gh2, I know you travel I-15 south fairly often, they have put in crossings along there with fencing to funnel the deer/elk to them to minimize car fatalities. That helps the average joe as well, and at what investment? Anyone who has been on the road going from Sigurd to Fish Lake, and down to Otter Creek can see the multiple acres of land where they are mulching cedars to make winter feed available for deer/elk. Where do you think the bulk of those funds come from?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Wow. What a discussion.

First - leather seats in trucks. I have no problem with that. For a CO, the truck is his office. And the truck gets used 40 hours a week. So to me, the leather seats is a no brainer - they will wear better, and retain value in the vehicle when it is resold - so it more or less comes out in the wash. Sure it costs more, but will come back in resale. As for an Escalade, who knows on that one. I've never priced them. Is the one they siezed from Warren Jeffs? Just a thought.

Second - if you think big money is taking away from your hunting opportunities, then you have never tried to hunt in another state. Utah has perhaps more public, big game hunting opportunities than any place I know (except maybe for Idaho). Those I hear complaining the loudest have never looked at the other side of the fence to realize we have some pretty dang green grass here.

Third - Money raising tags - I have no problem at all with Utah DWR working with the many organizations to raise money through conventions, auctions, etc.... to help with fund raising efforts. So we have 100 premium tags. Selling off 10 of those to the highest bidder is frosting on our cake that doesn't cost me as Joe Six Pack anything. It only helps. And I've seen far too many habitat projects that were only ideas until conservation groups were able to auction tags off to high bidders.

Last - DWR spending - I used to work for the State of Utah and never will again. The legislature in this state micro-manages every agency into oblivion, and refuses to pay market value for their professional services. Agencies, DWR included, do more for less than any of us will ever know. And they do it on budgets that are so tight you would be blown away. I applaud the efforts DWR does and I continue to be amazed at how much they do for so little. 

one last note - lets keep this discussion nice. Some of the posts got pretty close to crossing the line to personal attacks. Lets not go there or I'll shut it down. Keep the discussion going - it is healthy - just don't make it personal.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Third - Money raising tags - I have no problem at all with Utah DWR working with the many organizations to raise money through conventions, auctions, etc.... to help with fund raising efforts. So we have 100 premium tags. Selling off 10 of those to the highest bidder is frosting on our cake that doesn't cost me as Joe Six Pack anything. It only helps. And I've seen far too many habitat projects that were only ideas until conservation groups were able to auction tags off to high bidders.


Good points Gary, but to clarify, the 'money tags' can't exceed 5% of the total tags, so that would be 5 out of 100 being sold to the highest bidder. :wink: I have posted it before, but if they put EVERY conservation tag back in the pool, it would raise your odds of drawing that LE elk tag by a whopping *.03%* in the short term, but since it would be LESS money spent on habitat projects the net gain would be in the MINUS. That is why I say it is an excellent investment. Leaving aside the THOUSANDS of acres improved on general season areas, the number of LE tags have increased many times over since the introduction of the conservation tag program. The money raised goes further by being used by the private sector as well, the government is NEVER efficient, and the conservation groups can get volunteers unequaled by the DWR. A small investment (less than 5% of LE/OIL tags) for a great return (THOUSANDS of acres improved/kept from development/animal transplants/etc.). I'll take that kind of investment and freakin RETIRE and live well any day of the week!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks for the correction Pro. Its all good. You articulate it better than I do. I see great value in the conservation tags. I like them. Even though I can't afford them. I like them. For everything you explained. Good job.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> ..... Anyone who has been on the road going from Sigurd to Fish Lake, and down to Otter Creek can see the multiple acres of land where they are mulching cedars to make winter feed available for deer/elk. Where do you think the bulk of those funds come from?


Is this the area you are talking about?

This doesn't sound like money from "Big Money Hunts".....http://www.edf.org/article.cfm?contentID=4496


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Doc - that is an area where habitat improvements are being funded from many different directions. Forest Service. BLM. NRCS. USDA. DWR. And several conservation groups are all working together on this project. Dollars from auction tags have been used, along with the other funding sources, to get multiplier effect in how things are spent. This is a great combined effort by many agencies, private individuals, and private organizations.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

You forgot cattlemen (Those evil people that would wipe all wildlife off grazing land :roll: ).

Some would lead us to believe that the result is because of Big Money Hunts while it is a small percentage of it.

And misleading information at any stage only gives many more reason to turn a jaundiced eye toward those that would like everyone to swallow all of their propoganda.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Yes, cattlemen are helping too. The Farm Bureau and USU extension are all involved on those range treatments. To me, it is an amazing example of what can happen when people get together - they realize that it isn't a cattle vs. wildlife scenario. It can be cattle AND wildlife.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

My point exactly, there is a coalition of people/agencies involved. However, it was stated: "Anyone who has been on the road going from Sigurd to Fish Lake, and down to Otter Creek can see the multiple acres of land where they are mulching cedars to make winter feed available for deer/elk. Where do you think the bulk of those funds come from?"

This gives the impression that this project was LARGELY due to "Big Money Hunts" which would appear isn't the case and the goal is not necessarily for just for elk/deer benefit. Unless there are two seperate projects which I do not think is the case. Am I wrong?

Another point is that many of the improved areas are right on the highway and contribute to increased highway accidents involving wildlife but that could be a separate discussion.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Pro and Coyote would have us believe that without big money the animals would just lose interest and quit reproducing. To say that deer take money is untrue. The management system we have to manage deer in the way we (the division) have chosen takes money. I agree with Tex that we're headed in the wrong direction. Even if it were once a reasonable idea, the pressure and money now associated with the ever increasing trophy trend is less than desirable. I would like to see the Div take a step away from money hunts, conventions, and limited areas. I can deal with a few high dollar hunts - 10% of Pro's 5% makes up the majority of the money anyway. I can not abide the use of public tags for the funding of private or even club interests. The convention, the "conservation" groups all need to take one big leap from the nest. The div needs to wake up and see who it is in bed with. It isn't the animals/people it serves.

I hope Pro and Yote are selling Amway or some sort of juice. Only in Utah could a scheme be as successful as the one that we keep empowering. Sad but true.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Loke said:


> Greenhead 2 said:
> 
> 
> > Loke and cs, the difference is that the bird farm raises and sells their own product and the hunts take place on their land.
> ...


I think you misunderstand me! I am not saying a negitive thing about the guides, just would like to see how the purchese of the tags and the use of a guide makes it cheaper for me to buy tags? 
And as GH2 said it is a privite business that the birds are raised just for that... Kinda like Turkeys in the super market.... I guess I don't see how one helps out the other here? By all means have the rich buy every tag possible, but don't tell me that it helps me out in the long run to keep the cost down!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Tak you always play the part of.....I don't know what your talking about? I'm confused  Im lost :wink: When you can't come up with a better counter argument.





> So TAK, how does hiring an outfitter to guide one on an elk hunt differ from someone hiring you to "guide" them on a pheasant "hunt" where they shoot 200 birds a day?
> Or they hunt pen raised birds at the pheasant farm and pay to have 10 birds stocked for them prior to their hunt.


Still I don't understand what you are getting at.... I would more than be happy to answer you but give me something? OK someone paid to have birds put out on a bird farm? I guide them to hunt them? It still don't make it cheaper to hunt at the farm!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> *Pro and Coyote would have us believe that without big money the animals would just lose interest and quit reproducing. To say that deer take money is untrue. The management system we have to manage deer in the way we (the division) have chosen takes money. I* agree with Tex that we're headed in the wrong direction. Even if it were once a reasonable idea, the pressure and money now associated with the ever increasing trophy trend is less than desirable. I would like to see the Div take a step away from money hunts, conventions, and limited areas. I can deal with a few high dollar hunts - 10% of Pro's 5% makes up the majority of the money anyway. I can not abide the use of public tags for the funding of private or even club interests. The convention, the "conservation" groups all need to take one big leap from the nest. The div needs to wake up and see who it is in bed with. It isn't the animals/people it serves.
> 
> I hope Pro and Yote are selling Amway or some sort of juice. Only in Utah could a scheme be as successful as the one that we keep empowering. Sad but true.


So answer me this.....How would you restore habitat WITHOUT MONEY? Round up a bunch of Mexicans and work them like a chain-gang and feed them Bologna sandwiches all day? Restore habitat costs money like it or not.

Landowners and CWMU need to have the quality of animals high so they can sell their tags for big dollar amounts or they will either run the elk and deer off their lands or sell their lands to contractors and he will put 1,000 plus cabins on the property. These conservation groups buy pieces of land so that it doesnt get developed by contractors. The DWR gives tags to Landowners and CWMUs so they can make a profit off the deer and elk that live on their land and hunters get access to their land to hunt also. EVERYONE WINS.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY FOR THIS IF YOU DON'T USE MONEY???


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

TAK what I was saying is.....Pay attention now.....If you sell tags at auctions and high rollers (rich guys) buy these tags then you can make 6,000,000 dollars or higher from these tags. This money can help pay for habitat. The money needs to come from somewhere right? So either the rich guys pay the bill or the average joe pays the bill. Right now the rich guys are paying the bulk of the bill so this benefits the average joe because that burden isnt placed upon him.

How else do you think SFW, RMEF, NWTF and the Mule Deer foundation raise this money??? Hold BBQS at Coscos? Ask Cabelas and other businesses to donate the cash?


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

I'm somewhere in the middle of the road on public tags being sold for big bucks. The part I don't like is that once you set a tag out side of the general pool to be sold, or close and area to GS hunting, or make an area OIL or LE it ain't never coming back! 

Kind of like cutting taxes. :roll: Everytime someone proposes cutting government progams or taxes we get told how we could never go back to how it was before.

I guess that is why I cling to current publicly drawn tags and general season opportunities. But I also don't excpect trends to change and just plan to continue to aquire wealth and be one of the rich guys getting all the breaks.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I'm somewhere in the middle of the road on public tags being sold for big bucks. The part I don't like is that once you set a tag out side of the general pool to be sold, or close and area to GS hunting, or make an area OIL or LE it ain't never coming back!


If they divide up the state into smaller units then the whole state is going "Limited Entry." The General Season is already limited entry, but its on a bigger scale with more tags involved. When it goes to a smaller scale (dividing the units) then less people will get to hunt their favorite spots unless they draw that unit.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> Pro and Coyote would have us believe that without big money the animals would just lose interest and quit reproducing. To say that deer take money is untrue. The management system we have to manage deer in the way we (the division) have chosen takes money.


Can you explain to me how wildlife in TODAY'S world can be managed w/o money? This should be good. How do you pay for the DWR employee salaries, operating expenses, preventing land from being developed, habitat improvement/restoration, removal of depredation causing animals, transplanting animals to new/improved habitat? What magic wand do you possess? Can you name a SINGLE state that operates it's wildlife on a zero dollar budget? :? *\-\*


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> TAK what I was saying is.....Pay attention now.....If you sell tags at auctions and high rollers (rich guys) buy these tags then you can make 6,000,000 dollars or higher from these tags. This money can help pay for habitat. The money needs to come from somewhere right? So either the rich guys pay the bill or the average joe pays the bill. Right now the rich guys are paying the bulk of the bill so this benefits the average joe because that burden isnt placed upon him.
> 
> How else do you think SFW, RMEF, NWTF and the Mule Deer foundation raise this money??? Hold BBQS at Coscos? Ask Cabelas and other businesses to donate the cash?


I even put down the twinky to pay attention but I still did not get what you ment by the 10 birds released? What the hell had that had to do with anything?

Let me help you out... Just ignore what I say here, as I am you... Don't PM me as I believe you have some serious issues in your thought process! Thank TAK


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I even put down the twinky to pay attention but I still did not get what you ment by the 10 birds released? What the hell had that had to do with anything?
> 
> Let me help you out... Just ignore what I say here, as I am you... Don't PM me as I believe you have some serious issues in your thought process! Thank TAK


 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Oh on the pheasant farm comment then you have said that in order to be a real hunter then you have to do your own hunting. So what about the guys that hunt dumb pen raised birds at the pheasant farms??? Are they real hunters.? Or the guys would hire a guide to help them kill birds. Are they real hunters? Even how good is the guide without his bird dog to do the hunting for him?


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > I even put down the twinky to pay attention but I still did not get what you ment by the 10 birds released? What the hell had that had to do with anything?
> >
> > Let me help you out... Just ignore what I say here, as I am you... Don't PM me as I believe you have some serious issues in your thought process! Thank TAK
> 
> ...


Finally got ya around full circle there GRASSHOPPER!!!! IT IS THE GUIDE DOING THE WORK!!!!! *()* *OOO* *OOO*



> Even how good is the guide without his bird dog to do the hunting for him?


 OMG did you just make a comment like this? -)O(- 
Man I wish there was a thick headed motion con!!!!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

:rotfl: :rotfl: Sounds like you need to eat a few more twinkies my good friend. Wow you even used the word GRASSHOPPER. Im impressed!!! :lol: :lol: FINALLY TAK wasnt confused. Miracles do happen!!!


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Hey Neckcollar, I guess it's ok when some jackass with money goes in and leases waterfowl hunting fields and takes away those hunting spots from the hunters who use to hunt there before you even knew what waterfowl hunting was. You're the classic case of the Pot calling the Kettle black.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm going to do something really dumb here and stick my nose in this bee's nest.... I'm not bothered to much by "RICH" people buying tags and killing big bulls I mean they've got the money to do it and if I did I'd buy one to.... BUT I do have a problem with them getting the tag every year its great that they can afford that and all but I still think that it should be evenly distributed every 3 4 or 5 years atleast.... now I'm sure we'll all agree that none of us are completely pleased with the job the dwr has done with different things IE Mule deer, pheasants, etc. now on other things they've done great elk, turkey etc. so whine bi#(& or moan, unless we're proactively doing something about it nothing will change.....


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

USMARINE, thanks for your comments, while I may not agree with all of your view, I can respectfully do so and also appreciate where you are coming from. One question, how would you 'restrict' someone from bidding on a 'money tag' that goes to the highest bidder w/o affecting the money generated from the tags? I do agree 100% that unless we get involved, nothing we say will accomplish anything.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I recently had call to dress up - you know, put on a tux, grease the hair, even clean the fingernails. But after all was said and done, I looked in the mirror and low and behold, I still looked like a sheepherder.

As much as some want to dress up the big money tags, it's still just a tag grab. To argue that selling high priced tags is necessary is a con and since Utah is the con captal of nthe nation, it plays better here than anywhere else.

The fact is, there's a whole bunch of good people and organizations out there who are making a difference with hard work and fundsy that didn't come from big money tags. What's really amazing is that some of them work in cooperation with the same folks that insist there's no other way to raise funds. Utah Open Lands, the Trust for Public Land and the Nature Conservancy all come quickly to mind without even thinking very hard.

Since it depends the most on donations, let's look at what the Nature Conservancy has done. Setting aside their 20 year involvement in preserving critical GSL waterfowl habitat, there's the Strawberry River in which the Conservancy's initial purchases of approximately 5,600 acres, in cooperation with the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation and the Division of Wildlife Resources, protected the Strawberry from development.

Then there's Snake Creek Canyon, the only remaining undeveloped Wasatch canyon near Salt Lake City, where the Conservancy preserved 732 acres of critical habitat.

Then there's Scott’s Basin in the Deep Creeks, where the Conservancy purchased a 3,210 acre parcel of private land because it includes critical habitat for bighorn sheep, Bonneville cutthroat trout and several other species occurring only in the Deep Creeks. Scott's Basin was traded to the BLM for inclusion in the existing Deep Creek Wilderness Study Area.

That's just a sampling of a few accomplishments by just one of the many organizations that are out there. There's a bunch more, all proving the point that it isn't wildlife that needs the money from big money tags; it's the organizations that peddle them.


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## Derek4747 (Jun 23, 2008)

I think Utah's current situation works. The only thing I could ask for is more enforcement officers in the field. I have been on hunts with friends and family on 4 limited entry deer hunts as well as an any bull hunt on the Manti and not one has ever had their license checked. On most hunts we never even saw a fish cop


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

:lol: Here's the irony to your complain. The day you do get checked by a warden while out deer hunting you'll have left your license in your duck hunting waders and get a ticket. :lol:


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Finnegan and 10000, + 1.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

SteepNDeep I would like to hear your theory on restoring habitat and purchasing winter habitat without using money.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> SteepNDeep I would like to hear your theory on restoring habitat and purchasing winter habitat without using money.


Don't hold your breath yote, he has NO answers just accusations. :?


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Pro and Yote,

I am ignorant on facts and numbers when it comes to high dollar tag money and where and how much actually hits the ground. As I'm ignorant to groups like Finn pointed out and what things they have achieved without selling public tags. Neither of you commented on Finns post and I thought for sure you would.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

You two are real clowns. I didn't say it didn't take money. I said that the statement that having deer takes money is false. Deer don't give a rats about money or the new politics of hunting for tags. They eat, sleep, breed, evade predators, all without money or your help or say so.

The management system takes money. That is all that I was saying. There is a big difference as we can affect the way things are managed. You know that better than I do as you are constantly trying to manipulate what used to be wild game management into high opportunity management. You would like us to think that big game money tags are a necessity to the basic process. They aren't.

Coming out of a drought and mild winters - with the exception of last- has had a greater impact than all of your combined big money efforts.

You guys going to make it rain next? My lawn is looking kind of tired. I'd also like to know that you at least registered Finn's post about the Nature Conservancy.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> You two are real clowns. I didn't say it didn't take money. I said that the statement that having deer takes money is false. Deer don't give a rats about money or the new politics of hunting for tags. They eat, sleep, breed, evade predators, all without money or your help or say so.


In order to have deer then you need to have deer habitat. If the piece of land isnt suitable for deer habitat then it costs money to restore this habitat.

Example: cutting cedar trees and replanting sagebrush, bitter brush and other browse plants. Cedar trees choke out browse plants that deer eat because they soak up all the water. In the early 50s and 60s then they chained large sections of land to remove the cedar trees. The deer population exploded because sage brush could grow again in those areas. It cost money to buy pieces of land from landowners so that land isnt developed into housing.

SteepNDeep Im not sure you understand the whole concept from your post above. Restoring habitats costs MONEY.


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## drifter (Feb 19, 2008)

Steep n deep. You are doing a good job but Bart and his cronies will always try to make you think that the big $$$$$ shooter is the ONLY one who has ever funded ANYTHING to do with wildlife. The % of big $$$ shooter monies in minuscule in compared to state and federal funding. I don't give much credence to anyone who thinks they are this great conservationist and then holds their hand out asking for the most liberal hunting tag available in return.

Drifter


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> You two are real clowns. I didn't say it didn't take money. I said that the statement that having deer takes money is false. Deer don't give a rats about money or the new politics of hunting for tags. They eat, sleep, breed, evade predators, all without money or your help or say so.


WTH? :? *You*said, "having deer takes money is false", and then you deny saying it doesn't take money. So, explain what you're saying. :? Do deer give a "rats" about having food, water, space? Because those things DO take money. Think about it.

Drifter, you call me by my name as if you personally know me, do you? If not, don't act like you do! As for my "cronies", who exactly are they? I didn't know I had a fan base, it would be nice to acknowledge their wisdom in picking such a great mentor. :mrgreen: Since *you* assert that, "the % of big $$$ shooter monies is minuscule in compared to state and federal funding", please show these numbers to support your claims. If you don't have the numbers, are you just pulling it out your.........? FYI, I am NOT looking for *your* endorsement of whether my views have "credence". :roll:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Steep n deep. You are doing a good job but Bart and his cronies will always try to make you think that the big $$$$$ shooter is the ONLY one who has ever funded ANYTHING to do with wildlife. The % of big $$$ shooter monies in minuscule in compared to state and federal funding. I don't give much credence to anyone who thinks they are this great conservationist and then holds their hand out asking for the most liberal hunting tag available in return.
> 
> Drifter


Drifter, I have never said this nor has Pro.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

drifter said:


> I don't give much credence to anyone who thinks they are this great conservationist and then holds their hand out asking for the most liberal hunting tag available in return.


What is "liberal" about selling a tag to the highest bidder on the open market? Isn't that supply and demand, which is NOT a "liberal" preferred method. I contend the "liberal" mentality is that all must be "equal" in opportunity instead of EARNING it. No more than 5% of the LIMITED ENTRY tags go to conservation tag auctions, and yet they produce how much revenue? I don't have those numbers in front of me, but I assume you do since you say with confidence the amount is "minuscule", so please report so we can 'decide'. _(O)_


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

10000ft. said:


> Pro and Yote,
> 
> I am ignorant on facts and numbers when it comes to high dollar tag money and where and how much actually hits the ground. As I'm ignorant to groups like Finn pointed out and what things they have achieved without selling public tags. Neither of you commented on Finns post and I thought for sure you would.


It's about time I got into this fray, so I'll respond with those facts and figures you don't have. Or rather, I'll direct you to some of them.

DWR website - Hunting - Big Game - Other Big Game Information - Conservation Permit Program (scan down all the way. With the cooperation of the DWR, there's LOTS of money (and time) spent in your behalf by the sportsmen's organizations many of you seem to hate.

As to Finn's post, I believe we see in the mirror what we expect to see, based on preconceived notions. I've never met Finn, and have no preconceived idea that he was/is a sheepherder, so if I saw him in a tux all doozied up, I'd never take him for a sheepherder, like he did himself. We need to see in the mirror what's possible, not what's preconceived.

Now it's true that those organizations he mentioned do a lot for our sport, but only so far as to preserve the land. They do very little, if anything to improve and/or enhance the land, especially for game animals. That's why he mentioned them cooperating with the sportsmens organizations. The MDF, SFW, RMEF, etc. provide further funds and manpower to do the enhancing needed by the wildlife. In fact, some of those conservation organizations, not necessarily the ones he mentioned, actually purchase the land in order to discourage and/or lock out hunters. (The Sierra Club comes to mind.)

Now, some more facts and figures, and you'll have to bear with me on this because, it's quite lengthy. It's taken me most of the morning and up until now to collect this information. I've had to use some crossyear 2007 and 2008 figures 'cause some of it isn't available yet, but it won't be too far off. I'll show you pronghorn buck figures and how I got to my conclusions, then I'll just give the conclusions on the others. I'll do the whole state and I'll only do residents, it gets too involved otherwise.

PRONGHORN
2007 draw tags, LE-763, CWMU-36 Total - 825 tags
2007 applicants, LE-5,608, CWMU-221 Total - 5,829 applicants
2007 odds total - 1 in 7.3 or 13.71%
LE DEER (including Premium)
2007 odds total - 1 in 21.0 or 4.76%
LE ELK (including Youth and Management)
2007 odds total - 1 in 20.1 or 4.98%
MOOSE
2007 odds total - 1 in 94.3 or 1.06%
BISON (including Cow only)
2007 odds total - 1 in 67.1 or 1.49%
DESERT BIGHORN
2007 odds total - 1 in 131.2 or 0.76%
RM BIGHORN
2007 odds total - 1 in 168.4 or 0.59%
RM GOAT
2007 odds total - 1 in 39.9 or 2.51%

WTH does that have to do with the discussion??? Only this! The complaint is that the BIG MONEY tags ought to go back into the pool and not sold to the rich, because those are public assets going to private parties with minimal benefit to the average joe hunter, and it reduces his chances of getting a coveted tag.

Well, my previously mentioned DWR website link addresses the first problem. The DWR set up this program for the specific purpose of getting the cooperation of the sportsmens groups in order to accomplish the things they couldn't alone. It's stated that way in the text of the sites mentioned.

The second problem of reducing chances is, admittedly, a problem for those with maximum points, particularly OIL points, but doesn't effect most average joe hunters. Here's how that works! Let's put those big money tags back into the pool and see what happens to our chances.

2008 Conservation tags. (from the 2008 DWR website)
PRONGHORN - 24 tags(added back into the 2007 figures 'cause I 
don't have matching years' figures.)
Total tags now- 849
Odds now - 1 in 6.9 or 14.66% from 13.71%
BUCK DEER - 37 tags
Odds now - 4.91% from 4.76%
BULL ELK - 86 tags
Odds now - 5.10% from 4.98%
RM BIGHORN - 3 tags
Odds now - 0.73% from 0.59% 
DESERT BIGHORN - 5 tags
Odds now - 0.89% from 0.76%
BULL MOOSE - 7 tags
Odds now - 1.10% from 1.06%
BISON - 2 tags
Odds now - 1.37% from 1.34%
RM GOAT - 5 tags
Odds now - 2.66% from 2.51%

Those additional tags would allow maximum point holders to save a year or two, but there aren't enough tags to make a difference to most hunters. However, the money lost to wildlife by returning those tags to the pool could be significant. And, remember, the DWR approves, endorses, and by their own admission, needs this program. And it doesn't matter, to me at least, who does this needed work, whether the DWR, sportsmens groups, dedicated hunters, or conservation groups, just so it's getting done, which it is.

I hope this information and post doesn't cause more problems than it solves, but too many emotions are running this thread and there's not enough substance or data to back up the claims from either side. Now you've got some info. Do what you want with it!


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

great post!
thank you!


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

Elkfromabove............THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: 

Finally someone with some sense in the talks. I have been following this thread with great interest! But I have stopped short of posting my thoughts as it seems that everyone is already made up their minds about the so called "big money" hunts!

I am all for them by the way!!!!! I think his post above says it all.......it would hurt us all as sportsmen more to take them away than to give those few measly tags back into the pool!!!!!

I am getting sick and tired of all the BI*#$#ING on here and only a FEW actually doing something about it!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for those that actually KNOW what they are talking about!!!!!


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## clean pass through (Nov 26, 2007)

Its been said before but I will say it again. Nice post "Elkfromabove" Numbers make it more clear. 

Yes I am putting a disclamer on this statement. I dont agree with 90% of what Pro and Coyote write, but the fact is conservation takes money!!!! 

The base for all of the discussion is people want tags for themselves. Me too, but the fact is I am not as lucky as those who are able to draw the tags I want. :evil: 

My whole concern is I want hunting to be around for my kids if they choose to partake in the great sport ( I am doing everything in my power to influence them in the right direction :wink: ). I do hunting becoming a rich man sport and it scares me to death cause it has been a way of life for me thus far. I am never going to be rich so I will just hunt my butt off with the rest of the public hunters and hopefully draw a good tag every 10 years (if I'm lucky). 

Take away my chance to hunt every year and I'll draw the line.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

As I said PRO I personally have no problems with the big money tags everything in this world we live in takes money and thats an excellent way to get it..... I said I don't like to see the same person get the tag year after year after year I don't see that as fair they may have all the money in the world but I'm sure theres plenty of other rich people out there that are more than able to foot the bill for one of those tags all I think is it would be better if they put a cap that only allowed you to buy the tag every third or fourth year.... Elkfromabove excellent post.... thanks for all that info..... This is just my opinion and I wont be going to any RAC meetings trying to force this agenda or anything I'd just like to see it happen this way.....


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't see a problem with the same guy buying the auction tag every year. If you limit a person to a tag every so many years, the value of the tag will drop. Rich folks (most of them anyway) didn't get rich by throwing their money away. And the number of people that are willing to pay top dollar for their hunts is quite limited. I believe that they would simply take turns getting a bargain on the conservation tags. That would defeat the purpose of selling a tag to the highest bidder. And that is to get the most money out of them that is possible. I don't believe that the same person is buying the tag every year. The same outfitter maybe, but not the same hunter.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I don't see a problem with the same guy buying the auction tag every year. If you limit a person to a tag every so many years, the value of the tag will drop. Rich folks (most of them anyway) didn't get rich by throwing their money away. And the number of people that are willing to pay top dollar for their hunts is quite limited. I believe that they would simply take turns getting a bargain on the conservation tags. That would defeat the purpose of selling a tag to the highest bidder. And that is to get the most money out of them that is possible. I don't believe that the same person is buying the tag every year. The same outfitter maybe, but not the same hunter


.

I agree that we should try to get the highest amount of money for these tags. I dont care who buys them. I care about the money that is generated from this tags. After all that is the purpose of these tags. (To make a hell of a lot of money) I dont want to see hunting turned into a rich man sport either. I dont think any of "us" forum members are millionaires. Well maybe there could be a few right? We need a ton of money for habitat so why not let the rich help pay for the bill?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

If hunting becomes a rich man's sport, it will not be because they will be the only ones buying permits. The DWR's Conservation Permit Program as referred to in my previous post only allows a maximum of 10% of the sheep permits and 5% or 8 permits, which ever is less, of the other conservation species (which includes turkeys, cougars, bears, cranes, etc., as well as big game.) to be used in the conservation program. The general public still has the other 90 or 95% available in the draws and/or over the counter. If this becomes a rich man's sport it will be mostly because of inflation and the price of gas, guns, bullets, etc., and will have very little to do with any future increase in the price of tags. Let's hope it doesn't come to that!!


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