# I wanna cat!



## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

I really want to take a Mtn Lion with my bow. I'd appreciate some help finding a reputable guide/assistant in my quest to take a mature cat... I don't have a lot of $, but can trade sporting goods, hunting equipment, camo, etc...


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

I have removed my initial post. I was unaware of the laws involved and in no way shape or form wish to encourage anyone to break the law. I fully and publicly admit my ignorance and will proceed with more caution in the future.
Sounds like its best to just hire a licensed guide. My bad.

Sorry again.

Later,
Kev


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's an other word of advice, make **** sure there DOPL and special use permit
licensed. Ran through an outfitter.

I can see it now, they would love to bust someone doing a 'trinket' trade with a retailer.

State-licensed guides and outfitters Guides and outfitters must be licensed with the State of Utah before they can legally take hunters onto public land to hunt big game, cougars or black bears. Before you use a guide or an outfitter, please visit wildlife.utah.gov/guides to determine if he or she is licensed in Utah. The Utah Division of Occupational and Professional Licensing is the regulatory agency for this law. For more information, please visit wildlife.utah.gov/DOPL.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

This thread should be telling.


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## 73elkhunter (Mar 1, 2012)

You can give them a tip for taking you hunting but they cant charge you a fee to go other wise they need a Special Use permit. I am talking from experience and not a good one so remember if they charge a fee they need there special use permit if it is fedral land if it is private they dont need one.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The definition is $100 OR anything of value of $100,, max.

Rather it's a charged fee OR a tip OR a trade.........


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

What 73elkhunter is talking about is federal law restricting guiding on federal lands, and what goofy elk is talking about is the state law licensing guides.......there are both state and federal laws that come into play that restrict guiding on public lands. 

Just so everyone is clear, if you offer more than $100 in cash, barter, or reimbursed expenses to an unlicensed hound dogger for a lion hunt in Utah, you are asking them to break the law for you.

.....and no I'm not a licensed guide.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Hey guys!!! Knock it off!! I asked if there was anyone who can help me take a cat . . . I am not looking to go under the radar by "hiring" someone who's not licensed, simply stated that I would give a great Christmas bonus to someone who was willing. I'll hunt UT, ID or NV if that helps...

I live way up in the Top of Utah (he-he, nice plug for my shop eh?) and can't seem to draw a tag up here but I would be willing to drive south or to a surrounding state to take a shot, but I don't know the cat-woods outside of the Northern Region of UT.

I mentioned that I can't do big $$ for "official" guides fees (I based this on what I could find on the WWW dozens of guide's/outfitters prices) so I proposed a trade of merchandise or advertising to see if anyone with a big heart would step forward! Good heavens! 

Heck, I know a dozen guys who'll take me here locally for free to chase cats if I could draw a dang tag, but I have an itch and wanna try it instead of sitting on my ar$e... and if it's on private land, by a landowner, my understanding is that they don't need a license... or so I've read/heard - just like deer n elk guiding on CWMU properties.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> Hey guys!!! Knock it off!! I asked if there was anyone who can help me take a cat . . . I am not looking to go under the radar by "hiring" someone who's not licensed, _simply stated that I would give a great Christmas bonus to someone who was willing._ I'll hunt UT, ID or NV if that helps...


This is the part that makes me squirm a little. Again, $100 is the maximum "Christmas bonus" you are allowed to give for a public land hunt in Utah. As far a private land hunts, you are correct, no guide license is required. However, most CWMU's also sell lion hunts to their clients so getting one on the cheap may be difficult.

A couple other things, Idaho has even stricter guide laws than Utah and seem more enthusiastic in enforcing them. Nevada is primarily public land where the same federal guide laws with their special use permits apply.

Also, I'm friends with nearly all the hound doggers in northern Utah, we share dogs, we share hunts, and I know what goes on with these free hunts......and let's just say I'm not real comfortable with it and leave it at that.

Anyway, good luck on your quest.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Hey Kevin D, why don't you be a good guy and help TopofUtahArchery get in touch of some of your friends. So they can work something out.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the problem ridge,
Lion population numbers have tumbled BIG TIME with HO hunting,

Most hound dogers are finding it harder, and harder to even find a cat to chase.
There-for,when one hits the ground , all the dogers know it,and their usually pizzed off.
( I'm thinking Kev wants to remain friends with his co-chaser's  )

They cant stop legally licensed outfitters/guides, BUT they will raise hell with anyone doing it otherwise. ( unless it's your best friend, brother, sister, cousin, est.)

The sport of 'pursuit' hound dogging in Utah for lions is all but destroyed,,,,,,,,
And every cat that hits the ground is another nail in the pursuit coffin..
And EVERY ONE running hound dogs knows it. o-||


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Maybe there are no cats left in Utah because there are no deer for them to eat. 

You know it has more to do with that then HO tags since the cougar have been steadily declining with the deer herd. 

The fact you houndsmen are all sniffing each others butts so closely. Deciding among yourselves to regulate cougar hunting regardless of what the DWR is trying to accomplish. Then collectively chastising a houndsman that is not in line. I find disheartening. 

So how do you houndsman plan on getting your kitty's back? You don't think you need to increase their prey base first? None of these biologist ever told you guys about this. :roll:

And by the time you do get them back you'll have to contend with wolf to kill them.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Your deer decline theory in some ares is incorrect IB.

In 1992 the winterkill on deer was UNBELIEVABLE! And, at that time, there were a ton 
of cats..On the Manti ,In-particular, I watched the lions switch to elk and never miss a beat!

But you are correct about the houdsmen 'sniff'in each others butts', its true.
They all know what each other is doing.
To bad the deer hunters don't do the same, we might have a better number of
decent bucks running around to talk about :shock:  
( even though, I see this happening more ,and more, amongst the deer crowd :lol: )

And yes the Wolfe issue, left unchecked, all the other predator's are pale in
comparison....Excluding man of course.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Hey Kevin D, why don't you be a good guy and help TopofUtahArchery get in touch of some of your friends. So they can work something out.


You kidding me?? I'm protecting my friends is what I'm doing.

I've told this story before, but here it is again. I had a hound dogger buddy up in Salmon, Idaho that I used to trade hounds and bear hunt with back in the early 90's. The guy also had mules and one day a friend of a friend asked if he would pack another him and another guy into the wilderness area on an elk hunt. My friend also had an elk tag and didn't want to spend a week in elk camp alone so he agreed.

At the end of the week, one of the guys offered to pay him $500 as a token of their appreciation. Intially he turned them down, but finally accepted $300 as a reimbursement for the gas he burned, the hay he fed, and the groceries they all ate while they were up there.

Well, as you may have guessed, the guys were undercover fishcops and my friend was busted. He tried fighting the citation in court but was still found guilty of violating Idaho's guide and outfitters law. He ended up not only losing his hunting rights, but he also had to sell his hounds, mules, and hunting equipment to pay the fines and attorney costs he accrued. Shortly thereafter, he also sold his house and moved back to California. He pretty well lost everything he loved in the deal.

The lesson I took from all this is be careful who you help. Solicitations from strangers on the internet or casual aquaintences offering "great Christmas bonuses" in return for a lion hunt raises all kinds of red flags in my mind. My friend from Salmon was just being a "good guy" and look where it landed him.

Sorry ridgetop, but I guess I'd rather be a *prick*.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't really see where this thread is going. I don't think the OP is looking for a backdoor hunt. If you are a licensed guide, isn't it legal to do a trade for merchandise?

I'd look into Idaho or Wyoming if I were you. Unless you want to wait to draw a tag in Utah.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

svmoose said:


> I don't really see where this thread is going. I don't think the OP is looking for a backdoor hunt. If you are a licensed guide, isn't it legal to do a trade for merchandise?
> 
> I'd look into Idaho or Wyoming if I were you. Unless you want to wait to draw a tag in Utah.


No, a licensed guide in Utah can NOT do that, It has to be ran through an outfitter
that has Special use permits...( unless its done exclusively on private ground )

Most outfitters, if not all in Utah, Would not mess with a merchandise trade
unless it was very lucrative.....At least 3K +, and he wanted it


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> svmoose said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really see where this thread is going. I don't think the OP is looking for a backdoor hunt. If you are a licensed guide, isn't it legal to do a trade for merchandise?
> ...


Guide/Outfitter, I was using the terms loosely. Some states have guides, others outfitters. What I was referring to was someone who could legally charge money to provide a hunt guiding service on public land.

I know quite a few outfitters who do trades, maybe not merchandise but trading other outfitters for hunts is quite common.


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## M Gayler (Oct 3, 2010)

Tons of halfassed houndsmen out there're with good enough dogs to catch a cat if the tracks hot. Get one to tree ya a cat and kill it. Give him 100.00 and go on with life. 8)


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Wow, there are some people on here that... let's just say they ought to keep opinion out and not reply to other's threads unless they are going to offer their help. I shouldn't name names, but jeez Goofy, you've missed the point of my posting here... so I kindly ask you and anyone else who wants to bicker about that stuff to BUTT OUT!!

Now, let me get back to trying to find someone who'd possibly like to hunt a mountain lion withme... is there anyone here who doesn't charge an arm and a leg and want's to see a cat hit the ground? I'm not asking for professional cat herders... and a half-a--ed houndsman would be fine with me.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

If you could only draw out on the Oquirrh/Stansbury, I'd show you where some cats are. They're the reason I've found a new area to hunt deer now.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> Wow, there are some people on here that... let's just say they ought to keep opinion out and not reply to other's threads unless they are going to offer their help. I shouldn't name names, but jeez Goofy, you've missed the point of my posting here... so I kindly ask you and anyone else who wants to bicker about that stuff to BUTT OUT!!


Sorry if you think we're trying to hjijack your thread TofUA, but from my experience most hunters do not understand the new laws are concerning guided hunts in Utah. If you do, great, but you'll have to excuse some of the rest of us for trying to keep other forum members abreast on the changes.......so please don't bite the messengers.

Again, good luck in your quest.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I would contact Wade Lemon. He isn't afraid to kill any mountain lions. I mean why have hounds if you don't kill some lions once in a while. I know if I still was able to chase cats with hounds then I wouldn't feed them all year and only pursue cats just to take pictures. I always liked to award my hounds with a kill. It was also good training for the pups.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I know a guy that said no kill no pay. He guaranteed me a cat. If i killed it was $2000. We got my cat on the first day. I could have passed and kept hunting. I didn't have a lot of time to hunt that year so i chose to shoot it. Not the biggest cat but it was a tom. We passed quite a few tracks that day. Imho there are plenty of cats just not a lot of b&c cats. If you know what your doing it isn't hard to find a track to run. Its finding one that is big enough to waste your time on.

Imho the deer herd is to low to have a high population of cats. They could kill more females and a cut the male tags back so a few get some age. It would be nice to draw a tag and know you are going to shoot a big cat.

If the deer herd goes up the cat population should be allowed to go up as well.

Its a fun hunt and if i were you I would also never go on a hunt again if the guide didn't allow me to bring my family and friends.

Also forget the bow. Use a small caliber rifle. Small hole better hide. It also sucks to watch a cat sit and bleed out. Not very sporting if you ask me.


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## Groganite (Nov 14, 2012)

kevin, I know where a bunch are on the wasatch front, by a bunch I mean at least five, two of which are huge toms. I am also thinking crazy bow cat hunt next year. Ive never hunted lion either but i dont want to use dogs, ive seen them close enough without. NO CHARGE, just go as huntin buds. "Its not every day you find a guy that wants to slap a lion on the back". Message me for contact info. -Dustin


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

SW, I could possibly justify a "no kill - no pay" scenario... if I had to pay $2K for one day out it'd probably cost me a wife in addition... 

Kevin D, I don't mind people going through and giving pertinent information about the question that has been asked, but I didn't ask guys to come on here and reprint the proclamation or the Licensing Commissions rules for guiding... I asked if someone wanted to help me try to take my first lion. People can read the proc themselves or call DWR and get answers to their questions about rules. 

I think in total I have received 3 comments specific to my question regarding who might want to help me. Thanks Ridgetop, Coyote Slayer and Groganite for your suggestions and comments. We're finally getting somewhere.


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## Josh (Oct 27, 2008)

I have a tag for the san juan this year and the only reason I put in was that I was talking with a hound owner and he said he would love to take me out if I could draw a tag. He just wanted a chance to run his dogs on some good cats. Does anyone have any tips on hunting cats on the San Juan Abajo range? What roads should I start with to get on a track?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Topo the only reason i even posted my post was because when i did my research the guides ranged anywhere from 2500-5000. None of them had a no kill no pay. 
He was very negotiable maybe he would trade with you.

Wade lemon is a guide he wont run for free.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Josh said:


> I have a tag for the san juan this year and the only reason I put in was that I was talking with a hound owner and he said he would love to take me out if I could draw a tag. He just wanted a chance to run his dogs on some good cats. Does anyone have any tips on hunting cats on the San Juan Abajo range? What roads should I start with to get on a track?


Sorry Josh, but TofUA wants this thread to only be about him. His wants and his needs are the only ones he wants addressed in this thread. Despite being an public forum, he has asked all other members to "BUTT OUT" unless they are specifically responding to his wants and his needs. So please limit your posts on this thread to the wants and needs of TofUA.

Nonetheless, at the risk of drawing more ire from the OP, I'll PM you some info.


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## Josh (Oct 27, 2008)

Maybe I should have given a hypothetical situation like--if TofUA were to find someone to help him on the san Juan unit then....???? Thanks again KevinD for the help!


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Well, yeah Kevin...it was about me. For heck sake, what's the thread title? There may be a bunch of guys on the forum who'd be able to gain great insight from simple responses directly relating to the topic, but I didn't ask "who can offer the most info about guides rules and cat hunting regulations "... I wanna cat pretty much sums it up. I am certain there's dozens of guys out there thinking the same thing, but don't have $2-5,000 for a guide... so I kindly ask that responses be limited to the original question given.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

Try Diamond Fork up Spanish Fork Canyon, I've seen a couple from the paved road there during the winter over the years.

Don't know if the unit is open etc... so do your own do diligence.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

While I do think that ToUA has a point about asking a question/wanting relevant responses....if he is going to be so anal retentive as his last post states, then I will be equally anal retentive and request that this topic be moved to the relevant forum---Other kinds of animals. Then, and only then, will I attempt to contribute in the manner that ToUA has requested....


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

I thought mtn lions were big game... anal retentive? really? I'll have to remind myself with each response that you guys all came here to help each other... even if some of you'd only like to help people become discouraged about seeking a freindly assistance on something as simple (or so I thought) as gaining contacts towards hunting lions...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Told TUA I wouldn't post on "his thread" any more, BUT I cant take the supidity :shock:

1) Diamond Fork is in the Wasatch unit, LE ONLY..

2) Wade is NOT going to trade a hunt for "what ever trinkets" for anyone.
NOR is he going to do a 'no kill, no pay'......
And last time I talked to Wade, he too had STOPed letting clients harvest females.

3) TUA, If all you have in your pocket is a harvest objective tag, your options
right now are very limited, These hunts have been open for 6 weeks now and
only 18 lions have been harvested state wide..And almost NO HO units in Northern
Ut.,, Pilot Mnt and the Unitas being all that is open in the north to HO hunting..
The next closest would be Timp & Cascade.


4) With an HO tag, your (TUA) best option (IMHO) is to wait until March,
when the split units open to HO hunting. Still very limited in the north, but better.
You better be looking for someone to help you down around I-70, in the spring.
Then you might have a chance 

5)And yes, lions in Utah are classified as Small game, NOT big game. per the DWR :lol:

And is showen on "other kinds of animals" on the index board


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## clean pass through (Nov 26, 2007)

Goofy if your saying no lions have been killed in Northern Utah this year........your wrong. ( I could be wrong about what you were trying to say on #3) There has been two big toms killed on the Cache so far. Top of Utah I can get you the name of the guy who has guided on both. I will stop by this week at the shop.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

clean pass through said:


> Goofy if your saying no lions have been killed in Northern Utah this year........your wrong. ( I could be wrong about what you were trying to say on #3) There has been two big toms killed on the Cache so far. Top of Utah I can get you the name of the guy who has guided on both. I will stop by this week at the shop.


Cache/Ogden are both draw units, not the Harvest Objective units Goofy was talking about. As for the guide who killed the two toms, he is a close friend and frequent hunting partner of mine. In fact, he borrowed my lead dog to help catch the last one. He can speak for himself as far as travelling across the state to help TofUA for what he's offering, but I think I already know the answer.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

I appreciate the suggestions... before going out, I'd make sure the unit was open to harvest... I wouldn't just show up anywhere n chase down n kill a cat. Thanks... still lookin for options.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Just for the record, I might help YOU an IB out some day........

I haven't ruled that out yet.


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## Groganite (Nov 14, 2012)




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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

That cat is so big his head is the size of the dudes whole body lol.


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