# Another long range thread..



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Long range hunting is exciting to me. Short range hunting is exciting to me. Since joining this forum I have had a few discussions on threads with people about long range hunting and my feelings about it. This video is a clip from an episode of long range pursuit. This kid practices alot, so this doesnt mean any 12 year old can do this. I didn't start this to argue with anyone. Just to show that if you are dedicated it is quite possible to do, and I feel ethical. I have seen people with 100 yard shots less calm about a miss adjustment. The shot and shooter composure are great at any range.

Also love the 7mm and have heard on here that they aren't a good long range hunting gun, especially for hunting elk.

Enjoy!


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Gust of wind. Miss judge the temperature. Animal moves. etc, etc and you miss or worse wound the animal. 

It's called stalking!!!!


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

Yeah, the kid has great composure. The 7mm is obviously a great long range caliber. Those made by Gunwerks are some fine rifles. I've shot a couple..

One of the reasons I enjoy hunting big game is the stalk. I enjoy trying to get as close to the target as possible. The closer - the better, I like to smell those critters first! It's nice to use your full range of senses while hunting. 

To each their own.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> Gust of wind. Miss judge the temperature. Animal moves. etc, etc and you miss or worse wound the animal.
> 
> It's called stalking!!!!


Have you ever missed an animal or seen someone who has? Was it at 1400 yards?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

sawsman said:


> Yeah, the kid has great composure. The 7mm is obviously a great long range caliber. Those made by Gunwerks are some fine rifles. I've shot a couple..
> 
> One of the reasons I enjoy hunting big game is the stalk. I enjoy trying to get as close to the target as possible. The closer - the better, I like to smell those critters first! It's nice to use your full range of senses while hunting.
> 
> To each their own.


I love the stalk. But I also think this is amazing and wanted to share.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I am generally against long range hunting... but a member of one of my other websites posted a deer he killed yesterday at 900 yards. This isnt with a hunting rifle one would carry up the mountain, but a 30lb bench gun, and was fired from a permanent shooting bench. The shooter has mad skills an some incredible firearms. He routinely shoots sub 4" groups at 900 yards and posted again today with this best ever group: 2 3/8" at 900 yards. It is possible under the proper conditions to make ethical kills at that range such as what he did... but its certainly not for the majority of people.

-DallanC


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## ARCHER11 (May 26, 2011)

I think long range hunting, if you can call it hunting, completely ignores the "respect for the game" aspect of hunting. I'm sure there are guys that can consistently put bullets in the vitals at 1000 yards. But an animal shot at that distance was never given a chance to outsmart the hunter. All these long range hunters care about is the kill... what happened to the hunt?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> I am generally against long range hunting... but a member of one of my other websites posted a deer he killed yesterday at 900 yards. This isnt with a hunting rifle one would carry up the mountain, but a 30lb bench gun, and was fired from a permanent shooting bench. The shooter has mad skills an some incredible firearms. He routinely shoots sub 4" groups at 900 yards and posted again today with this best ever group: 2 3/8" at 900 yards. It is possible under the proper conditions to make ethical kills at that range such as what he did... but its certainly not for the majority of people.
> 
> -DallanC


The thing is, I don't know anyone that takes these shots at game that doesn't know they are competent and skilled enough to make them. I hear of way more wounds and misses at short range. If you haven't put in bench time at the yardage, you usually don't shoot. Or come close if you do.

At the end of the video it is mentioned the kid shoots all day to 1000 and 1360. I just thought it was pretty cool.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> The thing is, I don't know anyone that takes these shots at game that doesn't know they are competent and skilled enough to make them. I hear of way more wounds and misses at short range. If you haven't put in bench time at the yardage, you usually don't shoot. Or come close if you do.
> 
> At the end of the video it is mentioned the kid shoots all day to 1000 and 1360. I just thought it was pretty cool.


It's irresponsible and "not pretty cool".


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

RandomElk16 said:


> The thing is, I don't know anyone that takes these shots at game that doesn't know they are competent and skilled enough to make them. I hear of way more wounds and misses at short range. If you haven't put in bench time at the yardage, you usually don't shoot. Or come close if you do.
> 
> At the end of the video it is mentioned the kid shoots all day to 1000 and 1360. I just thought it was pretty cool.


I have to agree with you. For some reason I never hear of those guys missing either. Not that they would brag about it. Missing or wounding an animal doesn't make for very good video. Go figure.

Long range hunting is for snipers hunting snipers. I don't like it. Never have never will. Not impressed one bit. I am far more impressed getting close enough to an elk that you can hear it breathe and then while trying to knock the arrow you realize that you wet your own shorts a bit. Makes better video as well.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I have to agree with you. For some reason* I never hear of those guys missing either. Not that they would brag about it.* Missing or wounding an animal doesn't make for very good video. Go figure.
> 
> Long range hunting is for snipers hunting snipers. I don't like it. Never have never will. Not impressed one bit. I am far more impressed getting close enough to an elk that you can hear it breathe and then while trying to knock the arrow you realize that you wet your own shorts a bit. Makes better video as well.


If this is the video I'm thinking about the kid actually missed the elk on the first shot. Why do they even call it long range "hunting" anyway? I think a more apt name for it would be long range target practice at live animals.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Not impressed one bit. I am far more impressed getting close enough to an elk that you can hear it breathe and then while trying to knock the arrow you realize that you wet your own shorts a bit. Makes better video as well.


First elk I ever killed with a bow was a cow from a ground blind at a watering hole when a herd of about 80 came in one evening. Calves broke from the herd and rushed it when they got close, racing and running all over in front and behind me. As I was drawing back to aim at a cow that came in range, a calf behind me leaned over the blind and was sniffing my hat / back of neck.

Strangest hunting experience of my life. Why oh why couldnt they have had GOPRO's back then??? That would have been the video of a lifetime.

-DallanC


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

Here's the deal, some people like to fine tune their skills in "stalking" some guys like to fine tune their skills in "shooting". They find their enjoyment in either one sometimes both. If an individual practices their given focus and find themselves successful who are any of us to bitch? The kid killed the bull with a single well placed shot, the elk appeared to die after walking no further than I've seen many bulls go that were shot at much closer distances. They get their satisfaction out of that, I say cool! They've obviously spent a fair amount of time practicing and fine tuning the skill.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I ain't bitching about it. It's just not for me and I don't thinks it lends to fair chase at all. It ain't hunting. It's shooting.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

^^^^^Shooting ain't hunting just like being alive ain't living! To each his own though....


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Variety is the spice of life and to each their own. But carry on and bash away....it makes for good entertainment when I'm not at the range practicing my long shots. In my opinion, a well rounded hunter should be proficient and practiced at all aspects of the hunt and I'd much rather share the mountain with a guy who practices all year and will take a 500 yard shot than a guy who shoots less than a box of shells per year practicing, then "stalks" around the mountains often missing badly at close ranges. I'd be willing to bet that an overwhelming percentage of deer that are missed or wounded are done so at less than 200 yards. Also, while we are talking sportsmanship and ethics, how many of you who bag on the long shot are perfectly willing to shoot offhand at a moving animal?? How do you justify that? That being said, most people are not proficient enough to shoot at close ranges let alone long, so I am glad that many shy away from precision marksmanship and choose to continue the stalk, jump, and miss method. As for myself, I'll continue to take them any way I can get them. Close or far, I'll be ready and I will make the shot.-----SS


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## royta (Sep 26, 2007)

With all those fancy bows out there, I've decided to get into bow hunting. I'm going to practice until I'm proficient to 150 yards. As soon as I'm able to make consistent hits in vital sized targets, I'm going to go in the field and fling an arrow and kill me a big game animal at 150 yards. It will be totally cool though, because I'll have practiced daily on paper targets fastened to straw bales.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> It's irresponsible and "not pretty cool".


Nice response. Full of insight. Glad you took the time to respond to my post that asked you a question.

You don't like the video? Then go to a thread you do like. If you aren't going to add anything meaningful to the conversation other than stating your opinion as a fact then please leave the thread.

"I" feel it is pretty cool and there really isn't much you can say to change that. As far as irresponsible I have yet to hear a reasonable argument as to why. You saw the thread title, so you knew what this was.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm personally not real comfortable with the long range craze that seems to be taking over. It's not so much about wounding the animal, as many here have already mentioned, it happens with all types of weapons at all ranges, it's more about about fair chase with me. 

Deer and elk have developed defenses over the millennia to protect them against predators. They use their senses of hearing, smell, and sight as a survival mechanism to protect them against their traditional enemies such as lions, bear, wolves, and even primitive man. These senses give them a fair chance at detecting and eluding traditional predators at the ranges where they are a threat. The farther the predator is away, however, the less effective a deer or elk's natural defenses become. 

What natural defense does a deer or elk have against a man across a wide canyon with a high powered rifle, a spotting scope, and a range finder?? In effect none. They can no longer smell him, hear him, or likely even see him. Technology has made us more efficient predators able to take game at greater and greater distances, but a deer or elk's defenses have remained the same. Is there a tipping point??

It's not my place to judge other hunters and say that shooting at this yardage is ethical but this yardage is not, that is something each individual has to decide for themselves. Hopefully however, you'll all understand if I don't jump on the long range shooting band wagon.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Springville Shooter said:


> Variety is the spice of life and to each their own. But carry on and bash away....it makes for good entertainment when I'm not at the range practicing my long shots. In my opinion, a well rounded hunter should be proficient and practiced at all aspects of the hunt and I'd much rather share the mountain with a guy who practices all year and will take a 500 yard shot than a guy who shoots less than a box of shells per year practicing, then "stalks" around the mountains often missing badly at close ranges. I'd be willing to bet that an overwhelming percentage of deer that are missed or wounded are done so at less than 200 yards. Also, while we are talking sportsmanship and ethics, how many of you who bag on the long shot are perfectly willing to shoot offhand at a moving animal?? How do you justify that? That being said, most people are not proficient enough to shoot at close ranges let alone long, so I am glad that many shy away from precision marksmanship and choose to continue the stalk, jump, and miss method. As for myself, I'll continue to take them any way I can get them. Close or far, I'll be ready and I will make the shot.-----SS


That post is exactly where my brain was headed after page one. I hunt in thick areas where shots aren't often long (-120). I also muzzleload. However, I spend a great deal of time practicing every distance, and slope, so that no matter what my shot is I am comfortable. I do not see anything wrong with proficiency or variety.

As for some of the other posts, I think the stalk is great. I have only bow hunted once but it was very enjoyable and I can see myself doing it again. But this is long range we are talkin. I don't usually get on a deep sea or ice fishing thread and say that fly fishing is the only real way to fish!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Was curious how far people practice with their rifle so I added a poll. It's early and I am on my phone so the question is phrased wrong but how far can you shoot sub-moa? If the yardage is not on there, go to the closer distance not further. Also, feel free to post a response with your yardage experience and with your longest kill. This isn't for bragging or long range guys only; but if you have honestly never shot or killed very far, I am curious to hear from you! Thanks!

Lets keep it honest guys!


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> Was curious how far people practice with their rifle so I added a poll. It's early and I am on my phone so the question is phrased wrong but how far can you shoot sub-moa? If the yardage is not on there, go to the closer distance not further. Also, feel free to post a response with your yardage experience and with your longest kill. This isn't for bragging or long range guys only; but if you have honestly never shot or killed very far, I am curious to hear from you! Thanks!
> 
> Lets keep it honest guys!


What does a poll do? See the thread about poaching raptors.

Long range shooting is great at targets or Taliban. Sportsmen have an ethical responsibility and putting up video and stating it's "pretty cool" only encourage those of "us" who can't make those shots to try. Why don't you put up a poll of how many hunters have found wounded or dead animals in the last decade?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> What does a poll do? See the thread about poaching raptors.
> 
> Long range shooting is great at targets or Taliban. Sportsmen have an ethical responsibility and putting up video and stating it's "pretty cool" only encourage those of "us" who can't make those shots to try. Why don't you put up a poll of how many hunters have found wounded or dead animals in the last decade?


The poll allows me to ask people like you to honestly tell me how far you have verified you are sub-moa and how far have you killed an animal? I know more people who have shot an animal than the have shot a target. If that was the case with you, I doubt you would admit it.

If you try a shot you can't make, it is you who are unethical. If I harvest an animal at a range I am accurate at it is not. So if my thread persuades someone to try a shot they can't make they are unethical and never once did I recommend such behavior.

Of these wounded animals can you tell me the range in which the shot was taken? The caliber of weapon? I have personally found only 3 animals that were wounded. 2 were dead with arrows in them and one was running like a mother missing one leg from a rifle shot and my brother put him down. The guy caught up after we were done cleaning and skinning and he was shocked he missed the shot. It was an uphill shot of around 100 yards.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I selected 800 yards on the poll with some qualifiers. First, I have shot sub MOA much further, but 800 is where I would put my fail safe MOA threshold. This means I can maintain 8 inch groups that are 8 inches or closer to my point of aim at this range regardless of wind or conditions. Of course this is only the case when shooting from a prone position with time to get locked and consider conditions. I cannot maintain MOA at any range offhand and I doubt that I can from any other position reliably. Could I make shots at game easily at 800 yards. You bet. Do take those kind of shots all the time? Nope. In fact the average distance for the last 10 big game animals that I have taken is just over 100 yards. That average will plummet as I have caught the muzzy bug and have chosen to shoot only open sights.

My point in all of this is that I am a believer in mass preparation. That means being ready to face any situation presented. I'll be honest, I love hunting and especially harvesting animals. I want to have all the tools and skills necessary to hedge the odds in my favor. Personally, I hate missing. In fact this year with my muzzy was the first miss on big game that I can remember in recent history. Anything can happen, but I have been fortunate through practice and shot selection to take dozens of animals with one shot never having lost or wounded an animal with a rifle. 
I will say that I don't like the long range fad that we are experiencing. There is no shortcut for years of practice and experience. I do believe that each sportsman has the responsibility to strive to hone their marksmanship along with all outdoor skills with the goal of being a better, more ethical sportsman. 

I also don't buy into the fair chase argument and wonder how many who make this argument turn around and use things like trail cams, gps mapping, and ATVs in the pursuit of game? How are these tools ok on fair chase while precision rifle equipment is not? For myself, I like all the variables to be in the chase. Once I decide to pull the trigger, the game is already over and it's time to start cutting meat. ------SS


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

The poll is too vague for me. When your talking moa, your talking a 1" 3 shot group?
For me, I know my gun set in a vise could shot sub-moa for several hundred yards. But under hunting conditions with my gun set on a mono-pod or even my backpack. I'm sure I can't keep sub-moa at even 100 yards. I do know for a fact I can make one shot kills at over 300 yards and have done it several times. 
Right now I have a 30 year old 3x9x40 leupold scope. I know my gun( 7mm rem. mag. -weatherby mark 5 accumark) can easily kill game at 600-800 yards, while shooting 160 gr. accubonds. but I need a better scope to dial in the yardage and practice a lot. In the next few months, I'm planning on getting a Vortex scope with at least 20x with elevation and windage turrets. There are just some canyons out there that are too big to shoot across without making a long shot, it is just better to make a safe and planned long shot at a bedded or feeding buck or bull than letting it go or sneaking in and loosing track of it in thick cover. JMHO.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> What does a poll do? See the thread about poaching raptors.
> 
> Long range shooting is great at targets or Taliban. Sportsmen have an ethical responsibility and putting up video and stating it's "pretty cool" only encourage those of "us" who can't make those shots to try. Why don't you put up a poll of how many hunters have found wounded or dead animals in the last decade?


Long range shooting has nothing to do with wounding animals. Not enough practice and not knowing ones personal limits does. Why don't you preach against offhand shooting and shots where game is moving? Sometimes I wonder about people's motives. -----SS


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## ARCHER11 (May 26, 2011)

I bowhunt so maybe I jut don't understand. Although, the same scenario exists in bowhunting. For me it's not about being able to hit the target, it's not about who practices more or who can shoot the farthest. I'm not one to judge whether someone is ethical or not. That's a personal thing for each individual to decide. I don't really have an issue with the hit or miss aspect because like has been said, you can miss at close ranges too! Basically, I don't have a problem with the "shooting ethics" side of things. It's not my position to decide what's ethical for someone else. What I do have an issue with is the fair chase aspect. An animal being killed at 1000 yards has ZERO chance. The hunter did absolutely nothing to outsmart that animal. That just doesn't sit well with me. I'm curious, no disrespect intended, what long range hunters find sporting about it? Educate me.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> The poll is too vague for me. When your talking moa, your talking a 1" 3 shot group?
> For me, I know my gun set in a vise could shot sub-moa for several hundred yards. But under hunting conditions with my gun set on a mono-pod or even my backpack. I'm sure I can't keep sub-moa at even 100 yards. I do know for a fact I can make one shot kills at over 300 yards and have done it several times.
> Right now I have a 30 year old 3x9x40 leupold scope. I know my gun( 7mm rem. mag. -weatherby mark 5 accumark) can easily kill game at 600-800 yards, while shooting 160 gr. accubonds. but I need a better scope to dial in the yardage and practice a lot. In the next few months, I'm planning on getting a Vortex scope with at least 20x with elevation and windage turrets. There are just some canyons out there that are too big to shoot across without making a long shot, it is just better to make a safe and planned long shot at a bedded or feeding buck or bull than letting it go or sneaking in and loosing track of it in thick cover. JMHO.


Generally, MOA is considered 1" for every 100 yards of distance. While this is not mathematically correct, it is widely accepted in the shooting world.

So in order to shoot MOA at 500 yards, you would need to be able to group 5" or less. For hunting I like to stress also being able to hit within 5" of point of aim. I agree 100% with your observations regarding field situations that warrant longer shooting. Funny how opinion varies with experience.------SS


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> Generally, MOA is considered 1" for every 100 yards of distance. While this is not mathematically correct, it is widely accepted in the shooting world.
> 
> So in order to shoot MOA at 500 yards, you would need to be able to group 5" or less. For hunting I like to stress also being able to hit within 5" of point of aim. I agree 100% with your observations regarding field situations that warrant longer shooting. Funny how opinion varies with experience.------SS


Thanks for the clarification.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

ARCHER11 said:


> I bowhunt so maybe I jut don't understand. Although, the same scenario exists in bowhunting. For me it's not about being able to hit the target, it's not about who practices more or who can shoot the farthest. I'm not one to judge whether someone is ethical or not. That's a personal thing for each individual to decide. I don't really have an issue with the hit or miss aspect because like has been said, you can miss at close ranges too! Basically, I don't have a problem with the "shooting ethics" side of things. It's not my position to decide what's ethical for someone else. What I do have an issue with is the fair chase aspect. An animal being killed at 1000 yards has ZERO chance. The hunter did absolutely nothing to outsmart that animal. That just doesn't sit well with me. I'm curious, no disrespect intended, what long range hunters find sporting about it? Educate me.


And maybe with archery, we can say any shot out of a blind or tree stand is not fair chase because the animal had no idea the hunter was there.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

ARCHER11 said:


> I bowhunt so maybe I jut don't understand. Although, the same scenario exists in bowhunting. For me it's not about being able to hit the target, it's not about who practices more or who can shoot the farthest. I'm not one to judge whether someone is ethical or not. That's a personal thing for each individual to decide. I don't really have an issue with the hit or miss aspect because like has been said, you can miss at close ranges too! Basically, I don't have a problem with the "shooting ethics" side of things. It's not my position to decide what's ethical for someone else. What I do have an issue with is the fair chase aspect. An animal being killed at 1000 yards has ZERO chance. The hunter did absolutely nothing to outsmart that animal. That just doesn't sit well with me. I'm curious, no disrespect intended, what long range hunters find sporting about it? Educate me.


Let me squash some peoples thoughts on long range hunters. They don't sit on their porch or on a road to kill animals (can be said very often about short range). There is most definitely a stalk involved. Especially when you are going after a specific animal. Don't underestimate animals, especially trophies. They got that big for a reason. These kills often take place deep into the woods. You would just have to experience it. Now days, people violate the fair chase act more than they realize. Archers, muzzleloaders, and rifle hunters alike. Some people who critique long range are archers who want the elk hunt during the rut or kill monsters on the extended during the deer rut. As a male I tell you what, ain't nothing fair chase about shootin a horny buck with nothin but gettin some on his mind!


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I selected 400 yards, which is the distance I know if the opportunity presents itself, I will have meat in the freezer under just about any circumstance. That being said, I shoot an average of 400-500 rounds a year through my hunting rifles which I know is far less than some but far more than most. I have no doubt I could take an animal out to 600 ethically under the right circumstance. Ive never shot 800+ but just because I haven't, or cant, I do not automatically think its impossible and bash those who can. As with anything, its takes hours and hours of practice and hundreds if not thousands of dollars to achieve that level of proficiency. So rather than talking down to those who can and do make those shots, one should be willing to acknowledge what it takes and respect the person willing to do it.

Ethically killing an animal at distance is about as big a rush as the kill its self as far as I'm concerned.

Oh and that video was very cool! not just "pretty cool" :grin:


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Springville Shooter said:


> I selected 800 yards on the poll with some qualifiers. First, I have shot sub MOA much further, but 800 is where I would put my fail safe MOA threshold. This means I can maintain 8 inch groups that are 8 inches or closer to my point of aim at this range regardless of wind or conditions. Of course this is only the case when shooting from a prone position with time to get locked and consider conditions. I cannot maintain MOA at any range offhand and I doubt that I can from any other position reliably. Could I make shots at game easily at 800 yards. You bet. Do take those kind of shots all the time? Nope. In fact the average distance for the last 10 big game animals that I have taken is just over 100 yards. That average will plummet as I have caught the muzzy bug and have chosen to shoot only open sights.
> 
> My point in all of this is that I am a believer in mass preparation. That means being ready to face any situation presented. I'll be honest, I love hunting and especially harvesting animals. I want to have all the tools and skills necessary to hedge the odds in my favor. Personally, I hate missing. In fact this year with my muzzy was the first miss on big game that I can remember in recent history. Anything can happen, but I have been fortunate through practice and shot selection to take dozens of animals with one shot never having lost or wounded an animal with a rifle.
> I will say that I don't like the long range fad that we are experiencing. There is no shortcut for years of practice and experience. I do believe that each sportsman has the responsibility to strive to hone their marksmanship along with all outdoor skills with the goal of being a better, more ethical sportsman.
> ...


You are a very seasoned shooter. From searching threads on here and seeing your posts, I can honestly say you have shaped my opinion on some things. Your response as to why you list 800 is very enlightening. Not kissin butt, but would be nice to have your shooting knowledge someday.

I too have the muzzy bug. I cheat though and have a peep sight on one and a 1x on another. No, i don't shoot 300 yards at deer (have seen some monsters on the muzzy that made me wish it was a rifle!). But i have stretched it to 130.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I can't slam dunk a basketball from the free-throw line, but I think it pretty cool when I see someone that can.
I can't bring the New England Patriots back from 22 points to beat the Broncos, but I think its pretty cool that Tom Brady can.
I can't drive a race car at 170 mph, within inches of other cars, for 500 miles, but I think NASCAR is pretty cool. 
I can't even sniff par on a muni 9-hole, but I think the guys on PGA tour are pretty cool with what they do. 
I don't archery hunt, but I think its pretty cool that other guys do it and are good at it.
I certainly can't play the drums in a rock band, with one arm, but I love watching Def Leppard and think Rick Allen is pretty darn cool.
AND, I don't do long range shooting, but I think its pretty cool that some guys work and perfect that skill enough to do it right. 

But that's just me.


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## Charina (Aug 16, 2011)

RandomElk16 said:


> Let me squash some peoples thoughts on long range hunters. They don't sit on their porch or on a road to kill animals


I take it you have never driven between Heber and Strawberry Res during an open season then! Could not belive the number of trucks parked along the road all with binocs or spotting scope hanging out the window glassing far off distances. I'm fairly confident if an animal were spotted, in many cases there would not be a stalk to within 200 yards.

My issue with long-range is that any dolt can 'try it', and many do. There is no requirement that the weekend warrior watching a small kid killing a bull at 1300 yards be as proficient and practiced as the kid before deciding 'I can do that too!'. And so the pot shots start. There is nothing stopping them. That is not the case with stalking to within appropriate killing range. There is no 'cheating' allowed there.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

These kinds of threads frustrate me & many of the responses embody exactly what I feel to be wrong with society in general today, the pervasive sentiment that "how I do it is right and if you don't do it just like me you're doing it wrong."

I practice with my hunting weapons out to certain distances so that when the time comes and a shot is presented I am confident that I can take it at that distance. Most shoot farther than me, some not as far but to each their own. I will not criticize another hunter for how he or she hunts. 

Depending on the circumstances I'll put on a stalk but if I feel the best shot I'm going to get is at a distance I have practiced at... I'll take it.


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## royta (Sep 26, 2007)

royta said:


> With all those fancy bows out there, I've decided to get into bow hunting. I'm going to practice until I'm proficient to 150 yards. As soon as I'm able to make consistent hits in vital sized targets, I'm going to go in the field and fling an arrow and kill me a big game animal at 150 yards. It will be totally cool though, because I'll have practiced daily on paper targets fastened to straw bales.


I'm a little upset that nobody liked this post. So upset even, that I'm going to move it back to the front.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I don't normally get involved in these threads but maybe just this once.

I don't think the "average joe hunter" given a hundred rounds of their choice could hit a 4'X8' sheet of plywood at 1000 yards much less 1300 yards.

Most scopes would not allow you to even take AWAG as to how much holdover you would need.

The ethics violation would be making a lot of un needed noise.


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## ARCHER11 (May 26, 2011)

RandomElk16 said:


> Let me squash some peoples thoughts on long range hunters. They don't sit on their porch or on a road to kill animals (can be said very often about short range). There is most definitely a stalk involved. Especially when you are going after a specific animal. Don't underestimate animals, especially trophies. They got that big for a reason. These kills often take place deep into the woods. You would just have to experience it. Now days, people violate the fair chase act more than they realize. Archers, muzzleloaders, and rifle hunters alike. Some people who critique long range are archers who want the elk hunt during the rut or kill monsters on the extended during the deer rut. As a male I tell you what, ain't nothing fair chase about shootin a horny buck with nothin but gettin some on his mind!


From what I've seen, I can totally agree that the true long range hunters put in the time and take the hunt seriously. They may have to make a stalk but let's be serious, how hard is it to get within 800 yards of an animal? I think anyone could run up to 600 yards and the animal would never flinch. Heck, my brother and I ran to within 300 on the buck he killed this year. It's no monster but I really can't see it being that difficult getting within a few hundred yards of any animal.

90% of my hunts are done with my camp on my back. I know what it takes to get back in there and find the trophies. If there's anyone that know how smart animals can be, it's me! They've outsmarted me who knows how many times. I actually wish they were a little more dumb sometimes!

I can't lie, I'd love the archery elk hunt during the rut. It's only fair  In regards to bowhunting deer during the rut, I haven't killed a big rutting buck but you can bet I've tried. The thing with those love sick bucks is that often times they're surrounded by 10 does that have been chased by bowhunters for the past 2 months. Those bucks may be dumb but the does they're with sure aren't! I can understand your point of view and honestly, I respect it. I just don't share it and that's totally fine. I really don't mean to be a "hater". Hunting is hunting regardless of weapon or ability and I think we all need to have each other's backs. There's more than one way to skin a cat and as long as you do it with respect for the animal as a top priority I couldn't care less.


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## Charina (Aug 16, 2011)

I think this quote sums up the mentality I have heard more times than I'm comfortable with.

You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take. *Wayne Gretzky* 
And so, when someone sees a grand bull or monster buck that is headed into the trees, the 'use it or loose it' mentality can all too easily take over. With a lobbed shot, you have a chance, right? Don't take a shot, and it feels to many weekend hunters that there is zero chance.

I won't diss those that have the skills and dedication to make it possible. It certainly is possible, although 1300 yards seems a bit far to be able to account for unknown canyon gusts, etc. Perhaps not. I have never tried.

I tend to think that I'm a pretty ethical person. Yet, I am tempted to push just beyond my limits. Heck, I have that ballistics chart right there in my hand, and I know just how much the slug will drop those 50 yards beyond my practiced range, right? No problem, right?

For so many hunters, there are so few opportunities that they are 'desperate' to take a chance, even if a slim chance. The shooting in the video may have been ethical, but it is not ethical to show that to the weekend hunter who has the mentality of "have a 100 percent chance of not getting the buck you don't shoot at".


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

ridgetop said:


> And maybe with archery, we can say any shot out of a blind or tree stand is not fair chase because the animal had no idea the hunter was there.


That could be argued, you bet. However, when we are talking about fair chase and putting wits against wits (predator vs prey), a treestand or ground blind doesn't work unless you position them so that the animals come close enough for a clean shot (within the hunter's comfort zone). You still have to hunt and outsmart their senses because their senses are a factor and still at work. With stands or blinds you still give them a chance at detecting and evading you. Long range shooting with a rifle, muzzy, bow OR slingshot is a blatant attempt to remove the animal's senses altogether therefore it isn't fair chase. At least not in my opinion.

Game cameras, gps, and other technology it can be argued improves the situation in favor of a hunter but none of those control the animals and none of those tools interfere or eliminate the fair chase element of hunting.

I'm very comfortable with my hunting bow to 90 yards. But I will NEVER take a shot past 60 with my hunting bow. EVER. With my muzzy I'm good out to about 300 yards but I like to be within 100 yards (preference). I like to shoot my 300 win mag out to 800 yards but its purely shooting. There's no desire to go out and shoot at a living thing that far. Long range shooting for me is merely a tool to aid in turning an encounter with an animal into a harvest by being proficient with my weapon. What memorable encounter is there in taking a 100 yard shot with a bow, 500 yard shot with a muzzy, or a 1000 yard shot with a rifle? The right to brag about it? Sure if you pull it off but who's going to admit they tried a long range shot with any weapon only to maim an animal they couldn't recover? That's not hunting, its shooting.

Some are very good at shooting but I'd venture to say they rely on shooting skills more than hunting skills with the exception of a few who are truly dedicate to both. The ethics part of this, is an individual issue IMHO.


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## ARCHER11 (May 26, 2011)

ridgetop said:


> And maybe with archery, we can say any shot out of a blind or tree stand is not fair chase because the animal had no idea the hunter was there.


For me, it's not about whether the animal knows you're there or not. I don't care how I'm hunting, I don't want that animal to know I'm there until an arrow/bullet is on its way. I think we can all agree with that. It's about giving the animal a chance to use its survival instincts. Like was mentioned, even the use of blind/stand gives the animal a chance to use it's senses. Although, I get where you're coming from and archery isn't void of unethical/disrespectful practices.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I have no problem with the concept of long range hunting, just like I have no problem with rifle/muzzy/archery hunting. I DO have a problem with people who are not prepared for the type of hunting in which they engage. 
Have I personally long range hunted? You bet. I have also practiced at the range until I am consistent with my gun/round combo as far as 1500 yards. At that distance are there way more variables? absolutely, but it is still possible. To date, my furthest shot on a game animal was a hair over 1200 yards on a doe antelope in wyoming. I was also significantly uphill (rangefinder calculated it at 28 degrees) with little to no wind. 1 shot kill right behind the shoulder.
I have also ironsighted muzzleloaded a doe deer at 275 yards, one shot and down. I never shoot offhand as I am addicted to my shooting sticks. 
I like getting close, and I like a distance shot both for their own unique reasons. Have I lost animals before? Yes, but, ironically they all happened in under 200 yard scenarios where I didn't take time to fully prepare for the shot. 
If you practice and are proficient, it is obvious when you attempt these shots. If you think you can without practice.....then I have a problem with it.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

middlefork said:


> I don't normally get involved in these threads but maybe just this once.
> 
> I don't think the "average joe hunter" given a hundred rounds of their choice could hit a 4'X8' sheet of plywood at 1000 yards much less 1300 yards.
> 
> ...


This is a very insightful post and should be considered by all. "Un-needed noise" both in the field and on the World Wide Web. You sir are spot on.------SS


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I believe that this is the most reasonable discussion regarding this subject that I have ever seen on this board. Maybe there is hope for us after all. Insightful, well expressed ideas? Who would have thought. -----SS


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I agree ^^^^ I honestly thought it would be ignored or just hate posts. I wanted to share the vid though and am happy how the thread went


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Hunting takes on many forms. If it is within the law I am fine with it even if it is not my cup of tea. That said what is considered long range hunting for myself is different than it is for others. I have already taken the longest shot that I will ever take unless I have to hunt another man some day.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

^^^ Spot on!


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

We talk about sub MOA's as if it were a given, but realistically, how many hunting rifles out there are capable of consistently shooting sub MOA's?? Furthermore, how many hunters are consistently capable of shooting sub MOA's in the field where air temperatures, and elevation changes can all effect bullet flight??

In my grand dad's day, if you had a .30-30 that could shoot a 3 to 4 inch groups at 100 yards you had a keeper. In my dad's day, a 2 inch grouping with an off the shelf .270 or .30/06 was a rifle to hang on to. Even today, I've only owned 2 sporting rifles that could consistently shoot sub MOA's off a bench, a .25/06 and a .222 Rem, and that was only after a lot of tinkering.

My guess is that the majority of hunting rifles carried in the field today are incapable of delivering sub MOA groupings at any range, and that nearly all hunters are incapable of consistently shooting sub MOA groupings in field/hunting conditions. So while the odds of connecting on long range shooting has no doubt improved, there is still a lot of risk and luck involved.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm not sure what is unethical about a hunter taking a shot within his personal capabilities, and producing a clean kill with said shot? Someone is going to have to explain that one to me. 

Shooting that far and that accurately takes a lot of skill. How so many think it is an inferior skill than setting up trail cams all summer, then going and setting up a blind or stand and sitting there is beyond me... 

Awesome video! That 12 year old does stuff 90% of the people on this forum (including me) couldn't.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Again, a trail camera, blind or stand doesn't REMOVE the keen senses of the animal being pursued. Its part of the game just like hunting downwind but there is still an opportunity for that animal to be weary, scent you, and evade a hunter. Long range shooting at any skill level is more shooting than hunting as most of us have been taught. There are no doubt some that are very good at both. And then there are others like the kid in the video that know shooting as hunting. That is the fair chase dichotomy.

Ethics are up to the individual. So each of us have to define for ourselves what hunting, shooting, and anchovies on our pizza mean. 

Happy Thanksgiving!eace:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I voted "_None/what is moa?"_

For the last 3 years I've been using a .44 mag revolver when big game hunting.

I wish yer poll had a "75 yards" option.

.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Well, I'm more impressed with someone that can find a 6-8 year old 190"+ buck and keep track of it, even if it's shot from a long distance. 
Than someone who just stumbles upon a 2 1/2 year old buck and shoots it at 50 yards.
What if the person shooting long range, is doing so with the wind at his back, maybe he could rolls a few rocks for ample noise, then even take a pot shot about 20 yards over the animals head. Then dial in the scope and take a lethal shot. Would that be more fair chase? :mrgreen: 
Where do you draw the line?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Personally, I stay 30 lbs overweight to maintain fair chase. It makes me stink more, breathe harder, and sometimes I can see my heartbeat pulsing the crosshairs after a steep climb. What say you now?

On a serious note, a poster above mentioned accuracy of rifles as related to MOA. This made me think of another benefit of the precision shooting era. Factory rifles are now more accurate than they have ever been. You can buy true sub-MOA rifles for under $500 from several manufacturers. This was not the case 20 years ago when even high dollar guns often shot 2-3 MOA. So the market has demanded a better product that benefits all who gun hunt. Scopes are much better as well.-----SS


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> Well, I'm more impressed with someone that can find a 6-8 year old 190"+ buck and keep track of it, even if it's shot from a long distance.
> Than someone who just stumbles upon a 2 1/2 year old buck and shoots it at 50 yards.
> What if the person shooting long range, is doing so with the wind at his back, maybe he could rolls a few rocks for ample noise, then even take a pot shot about 20 yards over the animals head. Then dial in the scope and take a lethal shot. Would that be more fair chase? :mrgreen:
> Where do you draw the line?


Yes, where do you draw the line? And how much do you allow luck to be a factor? Or the size of the buck? Or the distance? If you switched the size of the bucks in your scenerios, which hunter would impress you most?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> Yes, where do you draw the line? And how much do you allow luck to be a factor? Or the size of the buck? Or the distance? If you switched the size of the bucks in your scenerios, which hunter would impress you most?


Really elk, are you really going to go there?

But since you did ask a question.

No, I would not be impressed by someone stumbling onto a giant buck and killing it or someone just resting on a rock and have a giant buck pushed from other hunters right into them. It happens every year and I call it very lucky. Like winning the lotto. I'm still happy for them but not really impressed at their hunting ability.
Now, if a person shoots a small buck at long distance. Then I'll still be impressed by the shot but less impressed by the buck taken. Since many of those bucks can be seen at closer distances on a daily basis, unlike an older mature buck.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

^^^^ you gotta admit......Ridgey has some pretty good points^^^^^ how many have truly ever gone on a "qwest" for a certain big mature deer? Most of us, like myself take more of a shotgun approach to hunting. I am at the skill level where I simply try to get in to country where big bucks live and take the best that I see. My buddy Bugchucker and I targeted a specific buck this muzzy season and had a blast trying to outsmart him. After seeing him daily on the muzzy, he was completely nocturnal and stayed in thick cover during the rifle hunt. We never saw him, but if we had, my daughter would have killed him at whatever reasonable range he presented himself at. We could have done a drive, but we don't roll like that. Sure seemed like fair chase to me at the end of the season. Especially since he is still alive. And it was one of the best seasons that I have ever had.------SS


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## Redman82 (Apr 12, 2012)

Question. How many people here have been 1000 yards from a trophy elk? Real impressive almost anyone can get that close. I'm not 12 and my daddy can't pay for sniper lessons or buy me a $10K rifle and scope combo. If that kid is disabled and can only hunt that way i am very impressed and excited for him. Otherwise i really enjoy the videos of people closing the distance. I'm just saying.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> Really elk, are you really going to go there?
> 
> But since you did ask a question.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I wasn't trying to put you on the spot. I'm just trying to make a point that there are hunters that don't have (or shouldn't need to have) the time, skills or interest that it takes to shoot a 190" buck at any distance or to pass on one that isn't 190".

Also, why does fair chase hunting have to be such a physical effort? We know we can't outrun them, or outsmell them, or outsee them, or outhear them, thus we can't physically compete with them on their level. But we can outthink them and that's why we are at the top of the predator scale and that's why we already carry binoculars, long range weapons, GPS's, warm/quiet camo clothing, hiking boots, cover scent, etc. And that's why some of us sit on rocks where we know we'll be lucky enough to encounter deer that are pushed by other hunters. Or sit in blinds or treestands near waterholes. In my case, I can no longer hike the mountain like I used to due to arrhythmia and my 2 P&Y animals were taken at waterholes, ie; antelope from a site-made blind, elk from a 20 ft homemade (by someone else) treestand. In both cases, I scouted enough to know the animals were using the waterholes and, in both cases I hunted more than a day and, in both cases the real physical work took place after the shot, but I earned both animals in a fair chase manner. I just outsmarted them!

Whether or not that impresses you doesn't matter, at least not to me, or to Pope and Young, but what does matter is whether or not you attempt to help set social regulations that will further prevent me from continuing to hunt in the manner I prefer. As long as our different impressions remain in the field or in a local cafe or even on this forum, I have no objections but when they reach the RAC's and Wildlife Board meetings, these converations won't be so cordial.

As long as you're legal, I encourage you to hunt as you prefer, but only as long as you return the favor!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

elkfromabove said:


> As long as you're legal, I encourage you to hunt as you prefer, but only as long as you return the favor!


I've spent ALOT of time around long range shooters and I have never once heard a peep regarding bow hunting or any other kind of hunting for that matter. I don't think you have anything to worry about. In fact, from my observation, long range guys tend to enjoy keeping their craft to themselves. A few like to post up brag videos, but generally we are a quiet but deadly group.

Also, keep an open mind. In my 20's, I used to make fun of the rendezvous guys with their buckskin and smoke clouds. Recently I have taken up muzzleloading and it has been very enjoyable. So, when you find that buck or bull of a lifetime, and you want to be prepared in case the shot is a little long......give me a call and I'll be glad to help.----------SS


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Redman82 said:


> Question. How many people here have been 1000 yards from a trophy elk? Real impressive almost anyone can get that close. I'm not 12 and my daddy can't pay for sniper lessons or buy me a $10K rifle and scope combo. If that kid is disabled and can only hunt that way i am very impressed and excited for him. Otherwise i really enjoy the videos of people closing the distance. I'm just saying.


Thank goodness he doesn't need you approval to have a good time. Re-read your post and try to see where you just sound like a jealous hater. Maybe his daddy works harder than your daddy?

Question, how many people have been 50 yards from a trophy elk?? That's what I thought.-------SS


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

really is a good discussion and has opened my mind a lot on the subject.


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## Redman82 (Apr 12, 2012)

Springville Shooter said:


> Thank goodness he doesn't need you approval to have a good time. Re-read your post and try to see where you just sound like a jealous hater. Maybe his daddy works harder than your daddy?
> 
> Question, how many people have been 50 yards from a trophy elk?? That's what I thought.-------SS


Shooter i am jealous. Wish my dad would have gotten me into hunting earlier. That's neat that the kid was able to get the shot. I was 150 yards from a nice buck this year and couldn't close the distance. It was hard to pass with my muzzle loader it just wasn't an ethical shoot. I didn't mean to sound like a hater. Just rethinking the situation. If you shoot one that far away you still need to recover it.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Both me and ridge mentioned selective hunting. Everyone on here says it is so easy to see a trophy at 1000 yards. You must have a good optic to score that far. Is your spotting scope fair chase? Deer cant see you.... I also enjoy some of the posts that infer long range hunters were born into it and have never hunted any other way. My dad has killed more animals single shot then anyone i have ever met. He has never owned a scope over a 3-9 and until I have taught him couldn't tell ya what the hell moa means. He sure as hell is on point with holdover. He is a NBK and its amazing. He didn't buy my long range rifle. My atv is **** near 20 years old. I am not rich. And my setup is not 10,000. It is not custom. I built it. I saved my pennies. Others may see it as not enough, but it is for me. And guess what, I can stalk. My kids will stalk. But they will also be proficient at short, long, and everything in between. Can't say anything is wrong with them being lethal whenever they need to be. I taught myself. I put in the work. I did my best to take luck out of the equation. How is that not hunting? I have yet to be unsuccessful with rifle or black powder since I fell in love with the art of flight(bullet ) does that mean I am not a hunter now?

I hope people stay away from long range hunting. It isn't for most and if you are on the fence with ethics, go the other way. I am normally quiet. Just wanted to share this over privileged shooter with everyone. His great great granpappy was given multimillions and his family hasn't had a worry since. Anyone could make the shot he did, i am sure we have all seen 1376 yard elk shots hundreds of times.


Happy thanksgiving ya'll!! Glad we are acquainted in this little hunting world!


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