# My Stubborn Wirehair



## MuscleWhitefish

My Wirehair is a hunting fool. 

Recently has taken up hunting bigger game. 

It started after he tree'd a sow bear and a 2 year old cub. 

Now, he will hunt anything that is not human.

And he will hunt and hunt and hunt. 

He doesn't like it when the hunt is over and he will pretend to ignore me to hunt more. 

Stubborn. 

I have a shock collar, but I dislike using it when he is hunting. 

I do not want to have my dog associate getting shocked with hunting.

Wirehairs need exercise, so I like to take him out in the mountains to get some off leash exercise.

As the game is moving down the mountains, because of the snow fall the game is moving lower and lower.

The other day he was after a 6x6 bull and a 5x5 bull. 

I don't want him to get shot or ticketed for him chasing big game. 

I hate using the shock collar, but I don't think there is another option. 

He is probably the smartest dog I have owned. 

I have to lock the windows in the truck and he still tries to push the button down to roll down the windows. 

This is my second shock collar, because I left the remote down one night. 

He is not a chewer, but he sure let that remote have it.

He knows when I have a fish on when fishing and watches for the fish to come to shore or through the ice. 

He also hates catch and release fishing, and will try to bring the fish back to me.

If he can't retrieve it I get the look of "Why in the hell did you do that?"

I know wirehairs were specifically bred for hunting all types of game, but I would like him to stop with an alternate option than using the shock collar.

He gets board at the dog parks, because there is nothing to hunt and it only takes him a little while to sniff everything.

He is not extremely fond of dogs that he doesn't know and dogs he does know quickly find out he is the boss. 

He is not fond of people that he doesn't know and will absolutely not listen to them.

In fact anyone that rides with us in the truck quickly finds out that the passenger seat is his seat and in order to ride you must be a seat cushion.

Maybe, I am just being too kind to my best friend and just need to put him in his place. 

He is just one stubborn hunting machine.


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## Packfish

I know with my PP's - the first one took after a buck out pheasant hunting- I had thought about this exact thing happening- beeped the collared twice then had to shock him 3 times. Later that day that same buck got up out of a gully- he took off- I beeped and he said good enough for me- lets get back to bird hunting. I hate to use that collar also but I have it on them incase something bad is going to happen- like a dirt road and a truck coming- but that time it cured him of that- he still is excited to have that collar put on him because he knows he's going to get to do something fun when it's on.


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## chukarflusher

I have one that used to act like that. That's the way I like them a little force fetch training and it opened his eyes he's better now kinda expect for the deer he gets lit up every time he can't control that desire


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## Steve Shaver

My interpretation is that you guys are thinking of the collar in the wrong way. Dogs need to be conditioned to the collar and what it means and is not used just as punishment.
Muscle, what I get out of your post is your dog needs to be taught obedience then reinforced with the collar. I have 0 experience with wire hairs but a dog is a dog. He sounds like a good dog and if you channel all that drive in the right direction he could be an awesome dog.
My dogs get way excited when I break out the collar. To them it means good times with birds and retrieves. The older ones will come and sit in front of me waiting for me to put the collar on. The younger ones will jump up and down trying to put their head through the collar for me. My dogs have the collar on every time I work them and putting it on is generally all I need to do. I haven't pushed the button on my older dogs in months, younger ones need to be reminded once in awhile. I train everyday and even the younger ones only get a nick with the collar 3 or 4 times a week once they are taught obedience and conditioned to the collar.


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## Packfish

he still is excited to have that collar put on him because he knows he's going to get to do something fun when it's on.


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## Dukes_Daddy

I didn't want to use a collar until one day out west he went after a deer and was gone for six hours. Thought he was gone.

First years with the collar he learned No mean NO! Suddenly cows, horses, deer, rabbits, coyotes, sheep and other dogs were interesting but not to be chased. 

Made for much more enjoyable days hunting.


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## MuscleWhitefish

Collar it is. Thanks for your help


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## izzydog

Dukes_Daddy said:


> I didn't want to use a collar until one day out west he went after a deer and was gone for six hours. Thought he was gone.
> 
> First years with the collar he learned No mean NO! Suddenly cows, horses, deer, rabbits, coyotes, sheep and other dogs were interesting but not to be chased.
> 
> Made for much more enjoyable days hunting.


Exactly right. GWP's are smart enough to learn after about one time. Collar condition, let him know what you want (no big game chasing) hit him once and hopefully he learns.
My dog knows that if she has her collar on she has to be on her best behavior and I very rarely ever have to use it any more.


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## Airborne

I will freakin fry my dogs if they even look twice at any big game. It's illegal and especially in the winter burns precious calories that the deer/elk need to survive. I remember a couple years ago a guy was letting his dog run elk around above Springville. The DWR did a notice on their front web page looking for the guy who they eventually found and the guy got a hefty ticket.

So ya--fry the crap out of your dog for chasing fur. I don't want my dogs hunting rabbits either so they get the treatment if they take up chasing rabbits. Teach this when they are pups. I have only raised one bird dog but it only took a couple times and he ignores them when hunting. My other dog I bought as an adult and she was already on the program.

Dogs crave discipline, you can love your dog but what that dog needs is an alpha to guide its life. A lot of folks let the dog be the alpha, these dogs run the show. I would never put up with any aggression from any dog towards humans or other dogs. If I ever meet a wirehair/DD owner that doesn't take some sort of pride in the fact his dog let's the other dogs know he is in charge or can kill other dogs, I will shake that man's hand. I have just yet to meet him.


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## Packfish

That's a fairly wide brush your painting with- can't say you are 100% wrong about the wirehairs/DK's but I can say you aren't a 100% right because I hunt with some. Seen them both ways. I don't tolerate aggression either- I do know I don't like lighting my dogs up- the one time with the deer - I carry that receiver in the third collar mode- I only have 2 collars so in the 3rd mode I can't accidently zap them. They respond to my poor attempt at a whistle- 99% of the time they stop at the first whistle to acknowledge that I am in contact- then they look for a hand signal or the second whistle to come . 
I 'm not saying they can't handle it just not how the dogs and I get along- We hunt but I have never considered them a "tool"- some of my hunting buddies yes but those dogs and I just get along- yes I am one of those guys that back backs with his dogs- cross country skis with his dogs- goes out to feed live stock with his dogs. They are not humans but none the less they are a good as outdoor buds as I could ask for- be them 4 legged or 2 legged.


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## MuscleWhitefish

Airborne said:


> I will freakin fry my dogs if they even look twice at any big game. It's illegal and especially in the winter burns precious calories that the deer/elk need to survive. I remember a couple years ago a guy was letting his dog run elk around above Springville. The DWR did a notice on their front web page looking for the guy who they eventually found and the guy got a hefty ticket.
> 
> So ya--fry the crap out of your dog for chasing fur. I don't want my dogs hunting rabbits either so they get the treatment if they take up chasing rabbits. Teach this when they are pups. I have only raised one bird dog but it only took a couple times and he ignores them when hunting. My other dog I bought as an adult and she was already on the program.
> 
> Dogs crave discipline, you can love your dog but what that dog needs is an alpha to guide its life. A lot of folks let the dog be the alpha, these dogs run the show. I would never put up with any aggression from any dog towards humans or other dogs. If I ever meet a wirehair/DD owner that doesn't take some sort of pride in the fact his dog let's the other dogs know he is in charge or can kill other dogs, I will shake that man's hand. I have just yet to meet him.


I can see your point.

Thank you for the reply


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## MuscleWhitefish

Packfish said:


> I know with my PP's - the first one took after a buck out pheasant hunting- I had thought about this exact thing happening- beeped the collared twice then had to shock him 3 times. Later that day that same buck got up out of a gully- he took off- I beeped and he said good enough for me- lets get back to bird hunting. I hate to use that collar also but I have it on them incase something bad is going to happen- like a dirt road and a truck coming- but that time it cured him of that- he still is excited to have that collar put on him because he knows he's going to get to do something fun when it's on.


Does the behavior change with when the collar is not on?


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## MuscleWhitefish

chukarflusher said:


> I have one that used to act like that. That's the way I like them a little force fetch training and it opened his eyes he's better now kinda expect for the deer he gets lit up every time he can't control that desire
> View attachment 52401
> View attachment 52401


I worry about force fetching, because right now my dog retrieves birds and could care less about balls, dummies, and other toys.

I don't want him to stop retrieving birds, since that is the only thing that he wants to retrieve.

Did you run into any similar problems?


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## MuscleWhitefish

Steve Shaver said:


> My interpretation is that you guys are thinking of the collar in the wrong way. Dogs need to be conditioned to the collar and what it means and is not used just as punishment.
> Muscle, what I get out of your post is your dog needs to be taught obedience then reinforced with the collar. I have 0 experience with wire hairs but a dog is a dog. He sounds like a good dog and if you channel all that drive in the right direction he could be an awesome dog.
> My dogs get way excited when I break out the collar. To them it means good times with birds and retrieves. The older ones will come and sit in front of me waiting for me to put the collar on. The younger ones will jump up and down trying to put their head through the collar for me. My dogs have the collar on every time I work them and putting it on is generally all I need to do. I haven't pushed the button on my older dogs in months, younger ones need to be reminded once in awhile. I train everyday and even the younger ones only get a nick with the collar 3 or 4 times a week once they are taught obedience and conditioned to the collar.


This is very helpful. Thank you


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## MuscleWhitefish

izzydog said:


> Exactly right. GWP's are smart enough to learn after about one time. Collar condition, let him know what you want (no big game chasing) hit him once and hopefully he learns.
> My dog knows that if she has her collar on she has to be on her best behavior and I very rarely ever have to use it any more.


He's pretty stubborn, but has a respect for electricity.

I'll give it a go, again.

Thank you


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## chukarflusher

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I worry about force fetching, because right now my dog retrieves birds and could care less about balls, dummies, and other toys.
> 
> I don't want him to stop retrieving birds, since that is the only thing that he wants to retrieve.
> 
> Did you run into any similar problems?


Ummm nope no problem what so ever! if anything he retrieves them better and a lot more reliably I will never own a hunting dog that I didn't force fetch myself it builds a bond with the dog that I don't think you can teach any other way if someone knows another way I'm all ears but I don't know any


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## Airborne

My retrieving training experience is with one dog so take it for what it's worth. He is a pointer and they are not known for their retrieving skills. I did not force fetch him, I don't have anything against it, I just don't know how. What I did do was work with him in the yard a bunch with picking up tennis balls and playing fetch. It took a while for him to even pick it up but I kept at it and encouraged him. He finally took to picking up and fetching balls consistently. Then I took a small chukar and froze it solid. I put the chukar in a leotard and worked with him picking it up and holding it in his mouth, then on to retrieving it. Then I took it out of the leotard and worked with retrieving the frozen chukar all while giving positive reinforcement. With a frozen bird they can't chomp and chew on it. Some dogs don't like feathers in their mouth (hence the leotard) but you just have to practice and practice. 

He is 2 years old now and will hunt for dead birds and will retrieve them. You can tell he doesn't like to retrieve but we are a team and he has figured out it's his job and he will do it. Sometimes as he is coming up the hill with a chukar in his mouth he will hesitate and stop, I just give the beep on the collar and he comes runnin with the bird. This year he struggled with pheasants a little bit in the dakotas because of there size but we worked through it. He does well with chukars though and I always give lots of positive reinforcement, just yesterday he retrieved 3 to hand. This is my system, it was taught to me by my bird hunting mentor and seemed to work well. The key is lots of practice time and lots of birds--just like everything else in the hunting dog world.


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## Packfish

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Does the behavior change with when the collar is not on?


 The behavior does change- collar means "going to have a good time" and they are excited. They calm down in a short period of time but they know that they are going to go do something.


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## Gumbo

Confession: I didn't read everyone's responses, but...

You have GOT to train your dog what to hunt and what NOT to hunt.

No tweeties.

No rabbits.

No deer.

No skunks.

No porcupines.

Teach him "No Bird", which means to leave it and keep hunting for game birds. Similar to "Fetch/No Fetch". Once trained, reinforce with the collar.

You gotta love a Wirehair, mine is a hunting machine and will hunt until his legs fall off.


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## gdog

"In fact anyone that rides with us in the truck quickly finds out that the passenger seat is his seat and in order to ride you must be a seat cushion.

Maybe, I am just being too kind to my best friend and just need to put him in his place."

You just answered your own question.....

Your dog owns you...you don't own this dog. Your lack of control and his lack of obedience is a liability. Have you looked into attending a few NAVHDA training days or hook up with some experienced handlers?


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## MuscleWhitefish

gdog said:


> "In fact anyone that rides with us in the truck quickly finds out that the passenger seat is his seat and in order to ride you must be a seat cushion.
> 
> Maybe, I am just being too kind to my best friend and just need to put him in his place."
> 
> You just answered your own question.....
> 
> Your dog owns you...you don't own this dog. Your lack of control and his lack of obedience is a liability. Have you looked into attending a few NAVHDA training days or hook up with some experienced handlers?


I haven't looked into it.

I can see your point.

I've been a little to lax and had a too low of expectations for this supreme hunting machine.

I was fine with just having a good hunting dog, but thanks to you and others I am going to work and have a great hunting dog.

Thank you for your opinion


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## chukarflusher

Navhda is going to be starting up are training seasons soon look us up its fun and a lot of good handlers to help us out look us up wasatch mountain navhda I'm not to sure of the website off the top of my head we'd love to see ha at training days


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## MuscleWhitefish

chukarflusher said:


> Navhda is going to be starting up are training seasons soon look us up its fun and a lot of good handlers to help us out look us up wasatch mountain navhda I'm not to sure of the website off the top of my head we'd love to see ha at training days


I would love too, but it looks like I will be in Steamboat for at least a little while for work.


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## chukarflusher

It's all good we do them about once or twice a month thru out the summer


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## Steve Shaver

Airborne said:


> I will freakin fry my dogs if they even look twice at any big game. It's illegal and especially in the winter burns precious calories that the deer/elk need to survive. I remember a couple years ago a guy was letting his dog run elk around above Springville. The DWR did a notice on their front web page looking for the guy who they eventually found and the guy got a hefty ticket.
> 
> So ya--fry the crap out of your dog for chasing fur. I don't want my dogs hunting rabbits either so they get the treatment if they take up chasing rabbits. Teach this when they are pups. I have only raised one bird dog but it only took a couple times and he ignores them when hunting. My other dog I bought as an adult and she was already on the program.
> 
> Dogs crave discipline, you can love your dog but what that dog needs is an alpha to guide its life. A lot of folks let the dog be the alpha, these dogs run the show.* I would never put up with any aggression from any dog towards humans or other dogs.* If I ever meet a wirehair/DD owner that *doesn't take some sort of pride in the fact his dog let's the other dogs know he is in charge or can kill other dogs,* I will shake that man's hand. I have just yet to meet him.


 I am a little confused on the bolded portion of your statement.


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## Airborne

PM sent


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## Steve Shaver

Airborne said:


> PM sent


 Thanks Airborne!


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## MuscleWhitefish

chukarflusher said:


> It's all good we do them about once or twice a month thru out the summer


I am headed to Denver this week for work and I found a spot just outside of town to get some training.

If I get back to Utah, I'll stop by and work him some more.


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