# Bear Spray is better



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

In the event that you don't already know

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2014/bearspray.htm#.U8AYxbGmWv-


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

... unless the bear charges from upwind.


-DallanC


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I pack heat and spray in bear country. First line of defense for a bear will always be spray for me. Even with a pretty stiff wind the stuff hits it's mark. I have had several friends that have had to use it in Yellowstone and the Krandall area


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I love this thread!!!!

I've said this a thousands times on here but here it goes again. In Wyoming I backpack in grizzly country. I carry spray, no firearm. I hiked across Yellowstone NP with only spray (couldn't carry on the Park back then anyhow)

If I'm in Alaska fishing I usually don't have anything. I just hang by my buds and let them carry all that heavy stuff.

If I'm in Alaska working it's pepper spray, naturally firearms aren't allowed at work.

.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I have give some thought about carrying when snowmobiling in moose country though.



.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

do they make moose spray?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that if you would hit a moose with the bear spray you would get similar results. There is just something about that pepper spray that stops just about any animal.


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## spencerD (Jan 14, 2014)

I carry, never carried bear spray. I pack a Smith and Wesson .40. 

I've only ran into one bear, though luckily. A momma bear and her cub. I'm lucky to be alive. It was a pretty scary situation.

After reading all this though, i think I'll end up carrying my gun as well as spray. The gun's useful for anything else that may wanna come at me.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

if you carry one or the other Spencer take the spray


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Loke said:


> do they make moose spray?


No, that's why ya gotta chute em when they're on the trail.

:smile:


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I honestly don't think that there is a powerful enough hand gun cartridge available that will stop an angry bear with anything less than a perfect shot. After that it doesn't much matter part or all of you will become critter scat.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

I would rather have spray than a handgun. But given the choice I would rather have a rifle in my hand than anything else.

However, if you are tracking a wounded bear, both blackies and grizz, move slow, be absolutely ready at all times and don't even think of carrying anything but a big rifle. A wounded bear is a totally different charge. One of you will probably not live through it. Pepper spray and scrambling hunting partners are a bad mix. Just my opinion from my experiences.


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## scott_rn (Sep 11, 2007)

longbow said:


> However, if you are tracking a wounded bear, both blackies and grizz, move slow, be absolutely ready at all times and don't even think of carrying anything but a big rifle.


...or maybe a longbow. :shock:

In all seriousness, road flares are supposed to work really well too.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

We had a can of bear spray leak in the cab of our truck. We were driving to our hunting location when our eyes started burning and we all started coughing horribly. We grabbed a water bottle out of the back seat and jumped out of the truck, we all took a big drink to clear our throats, that was another mistake because the bottle had spray on it and burned the hell out of our lips. Long story short, make sure your spray is secure and don't throw hunting packs on top of other hunting packs in a vehicle.


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## scott_rn (Sep 11, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> We had a can of bear spray leak in the cab of our truck. We were driving to our hunting location when our eyes started burning and we all started coughing horribly. We grabbed a water bottle out of the back seat and jumped out of the truck, we all took a big drink to clear our throats, that was another mistake because the bottle had spray on it and burned the hell out of our lips. Long story short, make sure your spray is secure and don't throw hunting packs on top of other hunting packs in a vehicle.


I have heard of planes going down for that reason.

All it takes is a 45
http://m.newsminer.com/news/alaska_...9c2-0c8f-11e4-b2dc-0017a43b2370.html?mode=jqm


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

"The researchers first examined records of every bear encounter in Alaska where people had used bear spray to defend themselves-72 cases in all, from 1985 to 2006, including black bears, brown bears/grizzlies, and polar bears. What they found showed that bear spray packed an enormous punch. It stopped undesirable behavior more than 90 percent of the time, and in only three cases were humans injured-all relatively minor injuries-when bear spray was used."

OK, so after bear spray was invented, 90% of the time, it works.

How about guns?

"Looking at records of 269 attacks by all three bear species in Alaska that occurred between the late 1800s and 2009, they found that discharging a firearm stopped encounters in 84 percent of incidents for handgun users and 76 percent for long gun users."

84% for handguns. 76% for long guns.

But look at the amount of time difference in the study! 21 years of bear spray against 120+/- years of guns.

Even the article thinks that there is something weird going on:

"That's surprising because some believe that handguns have no place in bear safety," Smith told the Salt Lake Tribune. "But they are much more maneuverable and can be carried more accessibly [than a rifle]."

Why is it that handguns fared so well? Probably because they didn't have records of people trying to fend off bears with peacemakers going back to 1885 or so. How many of the attacks in the study used percussion rifles/handguns with black powder and round balls?

Once you throw out black powder, what happens to the numbers? Do the handgun numbers go up? Probably not a lot but I bet they do. Do they go up 6%? If so, a handgun is statistically even with bear spray.

Do rifle numbers go up? I bet they go up like a rocket when you throw out data from the black powder days.

All this study has proved is that bear spray is more effective than pre-modern era firearms. But I don't think that surprises anyone.

Let's look at data from 1955 forward and see what that says. 1955, in addition to being the year of my Dad's birth, a low minting of the Franklin Half, and the year the first nuclear submarine was launched, was also the year the 44 Magnum made it's production debut on the market.

Statistics are like bikinis, my friends. What they show is good. But what they hide is better.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

All depends on who is wearing the statistics. Sometimes what is in plain sight is more than enough to make the imagination turn a blind eye.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Those statistics don't sound right to me but you never know. However, who would know better than experienced bear guides? Look at photos, Youtube and outfitter's websites and see what they carry.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There is going to be a difference between what you are packing and when you are packing. If it is a hunting situation and you might be coming upon a wounded bear then by all means pack some real heat. When I was up in BC during a bear hunt the guides packed 44 magnums during the hunt but said that on their pack trips during the summers they packed the spray and in over 50 years of guiding both summer pack trips and fall and spring hunts they have never had to shoot a bear, grizzly or black in that time. I have also found that quite a few people that pack big bore pistols for protection have no idea on how to shoot them accurately. They might fire off a box of shells a year but depend on it in a pressure packed moment when they have to decide if it is going to be the bear or themselves.

For the statistics I believe that before WWII you would of had very few people venturing into the back country just for the scenic views, they were out there to hunt and had a firearm that would take care of what they intended to hunt. A pistol was used after they ran out of rounds for their rifle or shotgun and was not a primary firearm. It is a lot like the old bear hunters that I have read about in California. They would shoot the bear with their muzzle loader, if that didn't kill the bear they would draw the six shooter. Then after those 5 rounds were shot out would come the Bowie Knife and the fight would begin.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> All depends on who is wearing the statistics. Sometimes what is in plain sight is more than enough to make the imagination turn a blind eye.


:grin: I guess that's in the statistics as well.



Critter said:


> There is going to be a difference between what you are packing and when you are packing. If it is a hunting situation and you might be coming upon a wounded bear then by all means pack some real heat. When I was up in BC during a bear hunt the guides packed 44 magnums during the hunt but said that on their pack trips during the summers they packed the spray and in over 50 years of guiding both summer pack trips and fall and spring hunts they have never had to shoot a bear, grizzly or black in that time. I have also found that quite a few people that pack big bore pistols for protection have no idea on how to shoot them accurately. They might fire off a box of shells a year but depend on it in a pressure packed moment when they have to decide if it is going to be the bear or themselves.
> 
> For the statistics I believe that before WWII you would of had very few people venturing into the back country just for the scenic views, they were out there to hunt and had a firearm that would take care of what they intended to hunt. A pistol was used after they ran out of rounds for their rifle or shotgun and was not a primary firearm. It is a lot like the old bear hunters that I have read about in California. They would shoot the bear with their muzzle loader, if that didn't kill the bear they would draw the six shooter. Then after those 5 rounds were shot out would come the Bowie Knife and the fight would begin.


I don't disagree with any particular part of that. I also think there's a reporting bias on bear attacks going backwards in time. No one told the government he shot a bear unless someone else found him dead and told the government he was dead.

The range of bears back then was also a lot bigger then than it was today.

I think the part of the article where it's talking about how bears learn to stay away from people once they get sprayed a couple times is very telling. Obviously, no one wants to waste a resource and no one wants to kill a bear that doesn't have to be killed or waste a pair of underwear that doesn't have to be wasted. But, it seems like FWP is either setting to prove what they wanted to prove or they are skewing the results in favor of non-lethal bear spray. Given the statistical biases, it really makes me wonder if bear spray is better or they just want me to think that it is better.

Also, if you are in brush going after a wounded bear, there is no bear spray in the world that is going to help you, unless it's lead and there is between 200 and 300 grains of it going between 1300 and 2500 fps, depending on what it's coming out of. Even so, people going after the wounded bears were probably still counted in the gun statistics.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Dodger said:


> I think the part of the article where it's talking about how bears learn to stay away from people once they get sprayed a couple times is very telling. .


Very true! The guy that's in charge of hazing brown bears from our property uses fireworks and spray. He doesn't like to get close enough to use spray unless he has to so most of the time he uses roman candles that crackle. He said spray is very unpleasant for them and they learn a good lesson about wandering into our hatchery grounds.

BTW I saw six brown bears yesterday. They're everywhere right now!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I like bear spray for when I'm backpacking because a little squirt really spices up those dehydrated meals! .... Yum!-----SS


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## 12many (Apr 14, 2008)

Pepper spray sucks, I had to get sprayed in the eyes before I could carry it (when I was a security officer) even the best of people would have a hard time functioning with that stuff in your eyes or throat, running into a cloud of this stuff would be terrible it reminds me of the way the military would have us get exposed to tear gas after breaking the seal on our gas masks even the best of us were not immune to its affects, people throwing up just it being on exposed skin would burn, as far as protection from any animal human included I would give it 2 thumbs up. Its hard to shoot strait when scared but with that stuff all you have to do is spray.


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## koltraynor (Jun 16, 2014)

spencerD said:


> I carry, never carried bear spray. I pack a Smith and Wesson .40.
> 
> I've only ran into one bear, though luckily. A momma bear and her cub. I'm lucky to be alive. It was a pretty scary situation.
> 
> After reading all this though, i think I'll end up carrying my gun as well as spray. The gun's useful for anything else that may wanna come at me.


The only thing the gun is going to do is hurt when the bear shoves it up your arse.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

*"The gun's useful for anything else that may wanna come at me."

*If you can think of something that Bear Spray will not deter I would like to know what it is. I have sprayed snakes with them as well and have seen them retreat in short order. Other than another person with a gun I would take the spray.


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