# Elk survey



## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

Here is the link to the recent elk survey. You don't need to receive this in an email to do it. Just click the link that says you don't have your survey number they sent you. It'll then ask for your name and email and then you can take the survey

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/UTElkSeasons?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Thanks for the link. Glad I got to voice my disapproval. Looks like the DWR is wanting to cater to bowhunters by taking away from the muzzy and rifle hunters.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Starting the archery elk hunt in mid August like it currently is now, has been a joke. 90 degree temps isnt my idea of archery elk hunting. I mean, lets look at Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Montana for example.....just sayin. Glad I could take the survey


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

Thanks for posting the link. I am a rifle hunter and due to health will not likely ever hunt archery. I generally am open to greater opportunity but my opinion is complicated by the fact that I’ve invested many years applying and gathering points for a LE Elk tag to hunt elk during the rut.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

I let them know the current muzzleloader rules all but equal a rifle so it should be an easy switch for those guys. I don't care if they leave the seasons the same and decease rifle tags to increase oppertunity and tags in other seasons or move the seasons around to increase oppertunity in other seasons. This current system can't continue support the number of applications and point creep will grow and along with it so with the discontentment. Change is coming

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Aug 1st start to LE elk season, rifle goes first and gets the whole month. Then archery can have the rut. That’s a change I can get on board with.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> Aug 1st start to LE elk season, rifle goes first and gets the whole month. Then archery can have the rut. That's a change I can get on board with.


Let's do it but just issue one tag and let it shake itself out

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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Aug 1st start to LE elk season, rifle goes first and gets the whole month. Then archery can have the rut. That's a change I can get on board with.


Why. Who wants to rifle hunt elk in August and why should archery get the rut. Heck with the multi tag the archery crowd can rifle hunt the rut if they want. Why does it seem like the DWR is catering to the archery crowd?


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> Aug 1st start to LE elk season, rifle goes first and gets the whole month. Then archery can have the rut. That's a change I can get on board with.


When is muzzleloader?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

brisket said:


> When is muzzleloader?


Aaah, who cares about those guys?

I'm being snarky about the changes, I don't think they need to do anything with the seasons. There is a small group of archery hunters that have become the most entitled whiney butts on the planet. The want to go first. They want their season to start early so they can kill a bull in velvet. And they want the rut. So basically, we should give them all of August and September to hunt. Screw everyone else, right?


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

muddydogs said:


> Why. why should archery get the rut.


So, why should rifle hunters get the rut? I can think of a few reasons why Archers should get the rut, one being our operating range is 60 yards give or take, so why not offer them a better chance? like all the other states do. but instead we give all the long range guys the time of the year when elk are easiest to kill..............We all know this. Its not catering, its re writing it the way it should be..


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

goosefreak said:


> muddydogs said:
> 
> 
> > Why. why should archery get the rut.
> ...


I think this was adequately debated back in March and April. 184 posts didn't seem to settle it. Bottom line, I think most hunters would like an opportunity to hunt during the rut. I know I would. So, who should be the lucky group that gets that opportunity? I would guess that each persons weapon of choice will significantly influence how we each answer that question.


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

We are the only state that hunts elk with rifles in the rut. Why should Utah be the weird outlier. Archery gets the rut everywhere else not because they are favored or have extra privilege or whatever wants to be said. It's because a guy with a bow has an effective range of next to nothing compared to a rifle.

I keep seeing all this why should we cater to bowhunters blah blah blah. Why should we cater to rifle hunters? Or muzzleloaders? Or anyone? The only fair way is to arrange hunts based on difficulty and success rates, just like every other state has. It's not rocket science. 
Obviously rifle hunters being spoiled with rut hunts all these years won't like the change, but I genuinely think it will be better for our herds in the end, and I bet rifle success rate doesn't change at all.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

BGD said:


> goosefreak said:
> 
> 
> > muddydogs said:
> ...


Oh, I get it for sure. Everyone is going to favor their weapon of choice for the rut and yes, I favor Archery but, if I was more in favor for rifle I would still suggest the archers have the rut.. it makes the most sense.
Iv archery hunted unit 27 in AZ starting in mid September and that was the most heart throbbing, breath taking Hunt I've been on and have yet to experience anything like it. Man was that crazy!! ( only ended up with a 300" bull) screwed up some Huge opportunities..

It seems a little backwards to call in a bull to 20 yards and shoot it with a 300 win mag.

I'll never do LE Archery elk in Utah again. In 2010 I hunted my AZZ off for 17 straight days in 90 degree temps and settled on a 340 type bull ( still a heck of an archery bull) and it was tough even to get him but, I will stick to any weapon LE elk from here on out just for the fact that it's in the run and no, I won't use my bow either, if I have a any weapon tag, dang straight I'll be using my gun..


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

How many rifle hunters have actually possessed a tag to hunt elk in September? You guys act like rifle hunters get the rut statewide for the elk hunt. You’re talking about a very limited number of tags. The vast majority of rifle elk hunters have never hunted in the rut. So just stop. 

Should we pander to difficulty of the weapon used, or number of hunters present in the state? I know moving the archery hunts to the rut and giving a ton more archery tags by taking them away from the any weapon season is appealing to bow hunters. Why wouldn’t it be? But you’re screwing the majority of the hunters in Utah by doing so. Not that I suspect that the very loud, but small minority pushing for these changes care at all about that. 

Goose, we all feel bad for you that you had to stoop so low to settle for such a crappy 340 bull. I hope you’ve recovered from that!


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## Pokesmole (Oct 29, 2016)

I just don't get why people are fighting so hard to keep the basically one in a lifetime rut bull hunt. How often are you guys getting these tags? I'd rather see the general archery during the rut, ya know something we all could benefit from.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Personally, I am an archery hunter and don't want the hunt moved to the rut. I think archery hunting elk is easier in August--though I definitely don't want the hunt changed to August 1 because I don't want to be hunting velvet bulls.

I do think, though, that the number of archery tags should be increased and the number of rifle tags decreased. By doing this, we could offer more tags and move people through the system a little quicker.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wyoming2utah said:


> By doing this, we could offer more tags and move people through the system a little quicker.


Disagree with this. You can move more ARCHERY hunters through the system a little quicker. You will grind the any weapon hunts to a screeching halt. There are more any weapon hunters in the state, this will actually have the opposite effect, in my opinion.

Yes, I can always go buy a bow and start hunting archery, I guess. But archery hunters could also go buy a rifle and start hunting any weapon (or use their bow in the season) if they want to hunt in the rut so badly. So that argument cuts both ways.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I would bet that if the number of archery tags went up and drawing archery hunts were easier that more people would make that switch...as is, a lot of the archery hunts are still taking 10+ years to draw and a lot of hunters are switching to rifle and muzzleloader because they don't want to burn a ton of points on a difficult hunt.

But, that's all opinion...I don't think anyone really knows what would happen.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Goose, we all feel bad for you that you had to stoop so low to settle for such a crappy 340 bull. I hope you've recovered from that!


Considering i had a couple 380-390's on camera and 1 bull in the 400+ range all summer long hitting the water hole and then when the hunt started they changed their habits over night. I'd rather hunt them in the rut where it s more consistent..

My idea of a trophy differs from someone else I guess.. but I ain't gonna eat tag soup either


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> How many rifle hunters have actually possessed a tag to hunt elk in September? You guys act like rifle hunters get the rut statewide for the elk hunt. You're talking about a very limited number of tags. The vast majority of rifle elk hunters have never hunted in the rut. So just stop.
> 
> Should we pander to difficulty of the weapon used, or number of hunters present in the state? I know moving the archery hunts to the rut and giving a ton more archery tags by taking them away from the any weapon season is appealing to bow hunters. Why wouldn't it be? But you're screwing the majority of the hunters in Utah by doing so. Not that I suspect that the very loud, but small minority pushing for these changes care at all about that.
> 
> Goose, we all feel bad for you that you had to stoop so low to settle for such a crappy 340 bull. I hope you've recovered from that!


See thats the thing is I don't think we should move the seasons to give more tags to archery. Why cant they give out the same number of any weapon tags, just move it back later in the season? No need to take away tags from the largest hunting group. But definitely adjust the seasons to be more in line with every other state. They all seem to deal with that just fine.

That is part of the reason people pick up archery in the first place is to hunt the rut. Does it actually make sense to anyone to be able to call in bulls and blast away from 10 yards to 1000 yards?


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Archery hunters need to be careful what they wish for. That LE archery tag that you can now draw with 7 points would likely add several more if not double the amount of years to draw if the hunt is moved to late September.

Something to think about for those pushing changes.

With the waiting period included--how many opportunities per lifetime are we really talking about anyways.

Are the archery hunters wanting to hunt cows/spikes/any bull areas more into September? Maybe open that hunt up archers for two days in Mid September like at the end of the rifle LE hunt? Most folks are tagged out by then? just brainstorming


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

jebuwh said:


> That is part of the reason people pick up archery in the first place is to hunt the rut. Does it actually make sense to anyone to be able to call in bulls and blast away from 10 yards to 1000 yards?


Utah's archery season has never been in the rut. At least not all the way through the rut. (they get the beginning stages of it EVERY year...but I digress) So picking up archery to hunt the rut in Utah would be a bad reason to do so.

The funny thing about this is Utah's elk herds are not hurting. The DWR reports most units are over objective. None of this has anything to do with actually caring about the health of the herd. In fact, one could argue that making the switch in Utah would have a negative effect overall if the herds increase because harvest rates go down. I know there are ranchers that would feel that way, and then what would the wildlife board meetings look like?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

This is so funny so far.. 

"catering to the archery crowd" - what would you call a rifle hunt in the rut? Who does that cater too lol..

For me this isn't about the "weapon" - it's about what makes sense for the animal. I don't think Rifle's in Rut make sense for the animal. Sounds like I am a minority.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Disagree with this. You can move more ARCHERY hunters through the system a little quicker. You will grind the any weapon hunts to a screeching halt.


First, you won't grind them to a halt. Plenty still put in for late season and if you really are not going to hunt elk because it isn't in the rut, then you really are looking for a super easy trophy and I don't feel bad. 400+ yard ranges on any of these units, any time of the year, can net you a big elk. I honestly think part of the success rates for rifle have to do with people passing because they don't get their "instagram" bull.

Second, if success rates drop on rifle, even 5%, you can issue more rifle tags. So you would in fact move groups faster.

I don't think archery success rates would increase by much.

All of these are speculation on success. Regardless, it's about the elk and what makes sense for them. The point is, less of these immature bulls would be blasted while they are vulnerable and bulls can breed in peace. This actually seems to help both trophy and opportunists... It doesn't help the "what about ME" crowd though.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> This is so funny so far..
> 
> "catering to the archery crowd" - what would you call a rifle hunt in the rut? Who does that cater too lol..
> 
> For me this isn't about the "weapon" - it's about what makes sense for the animal. I don't think Rifle's in Rut make sense for the animal. Sounds like I am a minority.


It's not catering to anyone, actually. That is just how it was from the beginning of the system. It made sense because the vast majority of people at the time were rifle hunters. It gave many more people a chance to hunt elk in the rut than any other way of doing would have done it. So yes, it applied to rifle hunters, but if you strip away the weapon, it catered to the vast majority of hunters...to answer the question.

Now, after 25 years established in the system and after people have played by their rules this entire time, the small minority wants to change to benefit the small minority. That is catering.

Again, the animals are not hurting. Utah elk hunting in the LE units is absolutely fantastic. There is no biological need for the switch to help the animals. Any claim otherwise is not supported by the current data. Maybe one day we'll get there that changes are necessary. Those days are not today. The change will be 100% social. Don't use the animals as the excuse. That simply is not accurate as of this writing.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> It doesn't help the "what about ME" crowd though.


And leaving things as they are and have been for 25 years doesn't help the "what about ME" crowd either. Difference is, I admit this bothers me because how it will impact me. Are you willing to admit that you want the change because it will help you, even if it hurts me?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> It's not catering to anyone, actually. That is just how it was from the beginning of the system. It made sense because the vast majority of people at the time were rifle hunters. It gave many more people a chance to hunt elk in the rut than any other way of doing would have done it. So yes, it applied to rifle hunters, but if you strip away the weapon, it catered to the vast majority of hunters...to answer the question.
> 
> Now, after 25 years established in the system and after people have played by their rules this entire time, the small minority wants to change to benefit the small minority. That is catering.
> 
> Again, the animals are not hurting. Utah elk hunting in the LE units is absolutely fantastic. There is no biological need for the switch to help the animals. Any claim otherwise is not supported by the current data. Maybe one day we'll get there that changes are necessary. Those days are not today. The change will be 100% social. Don't use the animals as the excuse. That simply is not accurate as of this writing.


Curious - do you currently have bonus points for Elk?

You are super gung ho on this.

As I said before, *this is about the elk*. I could care less if ANY hunt happened during the rut. Make it simple, follow the GS hunts like archery does. They compete with deer hunters, spike hunters, cow hunters... etc... Rifle has a week when NO ONE else is there and there is a rut. It's not good for the elk.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> And leaving things as they are and have been for 25 years doesn't help the "what about ME" crowd either. Difference is, I admit this bothers me because how it will impact me. Are you willing to admit that you want the change because it will help you, even if it hurts me?


This change actually doesn't impact me at all. ZERO.

For me it's about the elk, for you its about getting the easiest trophy elk possible. That's the problem, it's the me crowd. I would happily vote to have 0 hunts during the rut. That would be my top choice, followed by archery because of the measly success rates and lack of pressure on the animals.

I can admit that.

EDIT: This would actually hurt me because it would raise archery pools, which I intend to apply for after waiting period. If I want to draw again, leaving archery alone gives me best odds.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

How would archery hunting elk during the rut make sense for the animal? None of these options are good or bad for elk. They are all hunting options...social in nature and not biological.

I think that some of you are confusing the biological side of management with the social side. This survey is about social changes to the hunts and would not have any real impact biologically. The reality is that the number of harvestable animals will not change with how the hunts are set up. We have so many bulls that can be killed on each respective unit. But, depending on how the hunts are structured, we can offer a varying number of tags. For example, if 100% of the tags were given to archery hunters, we could offer more tags than if 100% of the tags were given to rifle hunters because the hunt successes would differ.

Like Vanilla said, right now many elk units are over objective...that should mean that we can offer more tags to bring numbers back in line with objectives regardless of when hunts are and which type of hunts get what percentage of tags. What we see, though, seemingly year after year is that the sportsman groups whine about the DWR killing off all the elk--and especially the trophy elk--and proposed numbers are decreased by the WB.

I think this survey is about the DWR trying to do two things: 1) offer more opportunity to hunters to harvest mature elk and 2) trying to get objectives back in line with where they should be without pissing off the sportsman groups, outfitters, and trophy hunters and even ranchers.

For those who don't like the ideas in the survey...what are some other options for offering more elk hunting opportunity without destroying the quality and getting elk numbers back where they should be and inline with objectives?


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## jebuwh (May 19, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> Utah's archery season has never been in the rut. At least not all the way through the rut. (they get the beginning stages of it EVERY year...but I digress) So picking up archery to hunt the rut in Utah would be a bad reason to do so.
> 
> The funny thing about this is Utah's elk herds are not hurting. The DWR reports most units are over objective. None of this has anything to do with actually caring about the health of the herd. In fact, one could argue that making the switch in Utah would have a negative effect overall if the herds increase because harvest rates go down. I know there are ranchers that would feel that way, and then what would the wildlife board meetings look like?


I just mean in general archery hunters in the West pick it up to hunt the rut. Obviously Utah is not that way.

So if harvest rates go down then they could issue more tags for any weapon right? Wouldn't that be better for all the rifle hunters that want to draw?

I am all for compromises, so in my book the most fair way would be to leave archery tag numbers the same and increase rifle tags if they changed the seasons.

Is that not a good enough compromise?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> How would hunting elk during the rut make sense for the animal?
> 
> I think that some of you are confusing the biological side of management with the social side. This survey is about social changes to the hunts and would not have any real impact biologically. The reality is that the number of harvestable animals will not change with how the hunts are set up. We have so many bulls that can be killed on each respective unit. But, depending on how the hunts are structured, we can offer a varying number of tags. For example, if 100% of the tags were given to archery hunters, we could offer more tags than if 100% of the tags were given to rifle hunters because the hunt successes would differ.
> 
> ...


So you don't think bulls that are 4,5, or 6 would live longer and have more time to breed if they weren't being shot by rifles during the rut? And that success rates wouldn't be lower?

Have you looked at age objectives? If the objective is 6, and they are 6.1, how "over objective" is that? I would say right in line. And some of these "objectives" are a joke. 4.5 years? That's considered LE management? That's a child.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't think we have any problem with cows being bred by bulls...our elk recruitment is excellent even on units with low age objectives. So, why do we need to protect elk during the rut? I think the age objectives on some of our elk units should be lowered...I think a 3-year old objective on some units would be great.

Why do we need so many trophy elk hunting units? Why do elk hunters need to have a 350 inch bull around every tree? Why can't we make hunters work harder to find those trophies and search for those older mature bulls? Right now, we have different age objectives for different units...some really high and some low. I think all of them could be lowered!

Also, I believe any rifle hunt moved from the rut will still have exceptionally high success rates because finding bull elk just isn't that difficult. Moving the rifle hunt from the rut will only have a very small almost negligible impact on harvest rates.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> I don't think we have any problem with cows being bred by bulls...our elk recruitment is excellent even on units with low age objectives. So, why do we need to protect elk during the rut? I think the age objectives on some of our elk units should be lowered...I think a 3-year old objective on some units would be great.
> 
> Why do we need so many trophy elk hunting units? Why do elk hunters need to have a 350 inch bull around every tree? Why can't we make hunters work harder to find those trophies and search for those older mature bulls? Right now, we have different age objectives for different units...some really high and some low. I think all of them could be lowered!


I asked a question in another thread why some units are even LE, and not just a 4 point or better? Even doing away with spike. That hunt still doesn't have to happen in the rut.



wyoming2utah said:


> Also, I believe any rifle hunt moved from the rut will still have exceptionally high success rates because finding bull elk just isn't that difficult. Moving the rifle hunt from the rut will only have a very small almost negligible impact on harvest rates.


Then why such a fight against it? I am an opportunity guy, but I do think this is a reasonable trophy request. Maybe I just assume killing a larger bull during the rut is easier because I see vids of guys hit a stupid hoochie mama and have big elk coming in, when they have a rifle anyways. They like bugle locating, it's easy and the big elk aren't up in the "crap" they are down with the cows.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I think a major part of the appeal for hunting elk in the rut is simply because it is the most exciting time to hunt them. I mean, seriously, is there a more exciting feeling than having a rutting bull come to a call?

So, why limit what hunters can do if it isn't affecting the viability of the overall herd? What are we protecting against by moving the hunt from the rut? Why not let elk hunters experience the best part of hunting elk--vocal bulls?

I think the opportunity to hunt trophy bulls is already out there...we don't need to limit elk hunters any more.

And, I like the idea of doing a 4-point or better elk hunt--a low quality, high opportunity type of elk hunt.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wyoming2utah said:


> So, why limit what hunters can do if it isn't affecting the viability of the overall herd? What are we protecting against by moving the hunt from the rut? Why not let elk hunters experience the best part of hunting elk--vocal bulls?
> 
> I think the opportunity to hunt trophy bulls is already out there...we don't need to limit elk hunters any more.


I agree with you on this, W2U. Our elk herds are not hurting. It goes back to my statement on the other thread about what SFW wants with 400 inch bulls. It's funny to hear people criticize "rifle hunters" for just wanting an easy trophy, when the entire push behind this is to increase the amount of trophies the state can sell off.

I guess you can pick your poison. I know how I feel about it.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Other states like Arizona have fewer elk and issue more tags AND harvest bigger bulls. Selling rifle tags in the rut is the cash cow of the Utah "conversation" program. The average sportsman in this state don't understand the system and how this pyramid scheme of a points systems works. The belief is if they wait long enough it'll be thier turn and that simply isn't the truth anymore for those on the lower tiers. The system is starting to serious back log so yes a change is coming

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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

weaversamuel76 said:


> Other states like Arizona have fewer elk and issue more tags AND harvest bigger bulls.


Nothing bugs me more about this discussion than when people say things like this^^^^^^...Arizona doesn't even come close to the number of tags that Utah offers, and Utah is at the top of the record books for elk depending on the metric used to evaluate. https://www.realtree.com/big-game-hunting/articles/the-top-5-states-for-boone-crockett-elk

For some reason, people conveniently leave out the any bull tags and spike tags that Utah offers in this discussion. Remember, Utah's elk management is split into "General," "Limited Entry," and "Premium Limited Entry." The management plan in Utah offers a lot of opportunity and a very limited amount of trophy opportunity.

Personally, I love the general season elk hunting opportunity that Utah offers and wouldn't change those opportunities for nothing (yes, including the spike only hunts!). Where I get frustrated with the current management is that the limited entry hunts are geared so much towards trophy bulls that the middle ground is left out. Why can't we have more limited entry units that manage for more quality than a general unit but less quality than a trophy unit? I believe even the low end LE units could offer a lot more opportunity but the inches' crowd fights it.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Yep your so right when we have to include general tags and spike tags what a quality experience year after year waiting to draw a tag somewhere a bull with a browtine is allowed. Wonder why spike only tags aren't standard everywhere because they are so awesome. It is a fact the majority of other western states protect yearlings

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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You don't have to wait to draw a branch antlered elk tag, there are any bull units that you can hunt and shoot the biggest bull that you can find.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Critter said:


> You don't have to wait to draw a branch antlered elk tag, there are any bull units that you can hunt and shoot the biggest bull that you can find.


What % of the state do these units exist on? Seems like it's not even a minor after thought

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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

A percentage I can't give you...but, looking at the map, quite a bit of opportunity and land exists where you can chase branch antlered bulls every year:
https://dwrapps.utah.gov/huntboundary/hbstart?SP=Elk&SE=Bull&TB=true

Make no mistake about it, though, these are high opportunity hunts that rate high on the difficulty level.

Spike hunts are high opportunity/low quality hunts. Together, though, they offer 30,000 hunters the chance to get out and chase elk. Like them or not, they are good for hunters and hunting. Personally, I love them!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I laugh when I hear people say that Arizona is better elk hunting than Utah. That is not what SFW told the Wildlife Board in April when the president commented on the amount of 400 inch bulls we can produce to sell off in Utah if we move the rifle hunt out of the rut...


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

wyoming2utah said:


> A percentage I can't give you...but, looking at the map, quite a bit of opportunity and land exists where you can chase branch antlered bulls every year:
> https://dwrapps.utah.gov/huntboundary/hbstart?SP=Elk&SE=Bull&TB=true
> 
> Make no mistake about it, though, these are high opportunity hunts that rate high on the difficulty level.
> ...


You have to sell licenses to get a portion of federal tax money. That ship sailed for deer hunting so now it's resting on general elk hunts.
When your thirsty for opportunities I guess any will do but being thankful to get a tag doesn't necessarily mean you have to praise the screwed up system.

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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> I laugh when I hear people say that Arizona is better elk hunting than Utah. That is not what SFW told the Wildlife Board in April when the president commented on the amount of 400 inch bulls we can produce to sell off in Utah if we move the rifle hunt out of the rut...


It's better managed no question about it. I guess it depends on how you define better hunting.

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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

I wouldn't hate it if the LE Archery hunt were in the heart of the rut, but that's just me being selfish. I didn't buy a GS archery elk tag this year because I'm still a Non-resident for a few more months, but my 2 buddies that I hunt with have both harvested bulls and I've helped pack them out on the OTC general hunt.

I can hunt bugling bulls all the way through the rut every year. Fell asleep to bugles Friday and Saturday night. Trouble is most guys aren't willing to put in the scouting it takes to find them, and the effort it takes to pack them out of where you do find them.

There is a pile of opportunity here, and I'm ultimately not gonna complain too much about the archers only getting the beginning of the rut on the LE hunts.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

weaversamuel76 said:


> You have to sell licenses to get a portion of federal tax money. That ship sailed for deer hunting so now it's resting on general elk hunts.
> When your thirsty for opportunities I guess any will do but being thankful to get a tag doesn't necessarily mean you have to praise the screwed up system.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


WTH are you talking about? Federal money? You pulled that right out of your behind....I can guarantee you that no elk management committee, RAC member, or WB member has ever brought up license sales for reasoning in management plans. I can also guarantee you that not one of the state biologists has ever used license sales for any recommendation he/she makes regarding management plans.

Again, 30,000 hunters (not including archery which would make that number even higher) get to go out every year and hunt elk after buying an OTC tag. Considering the number of elk our state has, that is incredible. In addition, in the past 20 years, we have dominated the record books for trophy elk.

Better managed? BS! I'd say the management in Arizona is far worse...not only are we a better trophy quality state, but we also offer loads more opportunity. How is Arizona better?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

weaversamuel76 said:


> What % of the state do these units exist on? Seems like it's not even a minor after thought
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


And what % of the state of Arizona can you walk into a store or get on line and purchase a bull elk tag?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

This exchange reminds me of that old saying that says perception is not always reality.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> This exchange reminds me of that old saying that says perception is not always reality.


26 years of seeing the glass half full or seeing it half empty doesn't matter if it's the only thing you know. Experience in other states adds perception

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I disagree with your assertion that Arizona is managed better for elk. The reasons are listed above. I’m open to hearing your side of why you feel that way, but you haven’t given much. Basically, at this points it’s only “because I said so.”


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

https://www.gohunt.com/read/skills/budget-101-how-to-hunt-elk-every-year#gs.s0Ney5w


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

A couple random thoughts--

-The archery hunt does occur during some of the rut. If archery tags were to include the whole month of Sept then would archery success increase? Which would in turn decrease the numbers of tags that can be given?

-If archers are less selective, would the harvest of a higher number of younger bulls cause the overall average age to fall, which in turn would necessitate a reduction of permits the following year because the average age could fall below objective?

-Is there really any difference to shoot a bull at 20 yards with a bow, rifle, ML, shotgun or pistol? I just think it is fun to shoot them at 20 yards-- with anything.

I like to archery hunt, so these changes would benefit me personally. But I see that they do not benefit the grand majority of hunters.



RandomElk16 said:


> https://www.gohunt.com/read/skills/budget-101-how-to-hunt-elk-every-year#gs.s0Ney5w


Interesting article, but he fails to mention Utah as an "Every Year" state. I really enjoy both the Any Bull and Spike hunts, which can be bought over the counter every year.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Packout, does the archery hunt include a piece of the rut though? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But based on all that I've read around elk biology, a cow will go into Estrus nearly coinciding with the Fall Equinox. She's only in estrus for 12 hours or so. She will be bred during that period 6-10 times by multiple bulls. Some older cows do go into estrus slightly earlier than that, though it is rarer. Younger cows generally go into Estrus even later in the Season, October or into November at times if it's their first season. T

The equinox usually falls on or around the 20th, this year it was the 22nd. The bow hunt usually ends around the 15th. Not usually any later than that. The next few years in-fact it looks to be the 14th or much earlier. 

So as far as the true rut, I doubt the archery hunters are getting much. To my knowledge that would all still be considered pre-rut. The week of the Equinox should finally be "full rut" which archers have yet to see in Utah. 

But I agree with you on the general rifle. I've had some good action during that time-frame in Utah.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

I would love to see some 4 point or less areas.
It would be awesome to harvest a small bull while still getting to see mature bulls during the hunt while looking for a small feller to cap.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Even though cow elk do go into estrus around the fall equinox the behavior of elk is "rutting" prior and post to that time. I have read some biologist publications that state the rut begins when bull elk start to bugle; which can happen as early as August. They begin to round up cows, protect them and challenge each other for them. This behavior continues sometimes well into October. I've watched elk rutting during the deer GS.

Even though the "peak" happens for a specific period of time the rut does last for a while. Also the cows that are not impregnated during the peak come into estrus again as far as 3 weeks later, making the rut rather long. I agree that the rifle hunt during the peak makes for a larger success rate and that's why many other states do not run their rifle hunts at this time.

Is the reason Utah does this because rifle hunters are a larger demographic and therefore take the prime dates?


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I hunt with a rifle and a bow, I find joy in both.


I got the email, I told them I'd like the archery hunt moved to cover the rut. What's done is done. o-||


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> I laugh when I hear people say that Arizona is better elk hunting than Utah. That is not what SFW told the Wildlife Board in April when the president commented on the amount of 400 inch bulls we can produce to sell off in Utah if we move the rifle hunt out of the rut...


Having personally hunted Arizona and Utah for trophy elk in mid September and helped on several trophy hunts in both states, I'd pick AZ any and every day of the week, the only units in Utah that come close to some of the top notch units in AZ are the Boulders, Beaver, San Juan..

I'v personally spot lighted bulls in AZ that would easily push 430+ The bugling action is something like iv never heard before. I'v seen more bulls in AZ push 390+ than I have in Utah and iv spent a heck of a lot more time in the mountains here in Utah. Thats all I have to go off of is my experience and my own eyes... Just my 2 cents

Utah does have some top notch elk though, and yes more elk too.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> I disagree with your assertion that Arizona is managed better for elk. The reasons are listed above. I'm open to hearing your side of why you feel that way, but you haven't given much. Basically, at this points it's only "because I said so."


Utah has 225 typical and non-typical b&c entries with a elk population guess 68,000

Arizona has 256 typical and non-typical b&c entries with an elk population of 35,000 give or take

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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Packout, does the archery hunt include a piece of the rut though? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But based on all that I've read around elk biology, a cow will go into Estrus nearly coinciding with the Fall Equinox. She's only in estrus for 12 hours or so. She will be bred during that period 6-10 times by multiple bulls. Some older cows do go into estrus slightly earlier than that, though it is rarer. Younger cows generally go into Estrus even later in the Season, October or into November at times if it's their first season. T
> 
> The equinox usually falls on or around the 20th, this year it was the 22nd. The bow hunt usually ends around the 15th. Not usually any later than that. The next few years in-fact it looks to be the 14th or much earlier.
> 
> So as far as the true rut, I doubt the archery hunters are getting much. To my knowledge that would all still be considered pre-rut. The week of the Equinox should finally be "full rut" which archers have yet to see in Utah.


I won't correct you because I don't know everything, but my opinion is yes. I always hear the courtship/dominion period as the rut. I never hear the actual breeding moment referred to as the rut. The rut (as I know it) starts in many areas I frequent the 2nd-6th of Sept. But I have seen it as early as the 3rd week in Aug and this year was the latest I've seen it. (The bulls also seemed to be a week to 10 days later rubbing their velvet this year) The archery dates hit the pre rut (as bulls come into the cows) and the start of the rut (when bulls are sorting out the hierarchy). I think it is easiest to call in mature/herd bulls during the pre-rut and the early portion of the rut. Satellite bulls are easy to call anytime pre/during/post rut.

Cows will breed early Sept-late Oct, with most breeding mid Sept. I think cows gestation is around 250 days and I was told that cows can deliver slightly early to slightly late so many calves hit the ground at the same time. I have personally seen cows bred the first week of Sept and every week after until mid Oct. So that is the little I know.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Packout said:


> I won't correct you because I don't know everything, but my opinion is yes. I always hear the courtship/dominion period as the rut. I never hear the actual breeding moment referred to as the rut. The rut (as I know it) starts in many areas I frequent the 2nd-6th of Sept. But I have seen it as early as the 3rd week in Aug and this year was the latest I've seen it. (The bulls also seemed to be a week to 10 days later rubbing their velvet this year) The archery dates hit the pre rut (as bulls come into the cows) and the start of the rut (when bulls are sorting out the hierarchy). I think it is easiest to call in mature/herd bulls during the pre-rut and the early portion of the rut. Satellite bulls are easy to call anytime pre/during/post rut.
> 
> Cows will breed early Sept-late Oct, with most breeding mid Sept. I think cows gestation is around 250 days and I was told that cows can deliver slightly early to slightly late so many calves hit the ground at the same time. I have personally seen cows bred the first week of Sept and every week after until mid Oct. So that is the little I know.


Dang that's early compared to what I personally see.

I think what's important then is: what is the DWR defining as "the rut"?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

weaversamuel76 said:


> Utah has 225 typical and non-typical b&c entries with a elk population guess 68,000
> 
> Arizona has 256 typical and non-typical b&c entries with an elk population of 35,000 give or take
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Now compare the number of entries into the books over the past 20 years...who has more?

And, Utah has done that at the same time they are offering 30,000+ OTC tags! That is the brilliance of the system...

...but, by all means, go to Arizona and leave Utah's "crappy" system to those of us who love it!


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

wyoming2utah said:


> Now compare the number of entries into the books over the past 20 years...who has more?
> 
> And, Utah has done that at the same time they are offering 30,000+ OTC tags! That is the brilliance of the system...
> 
> ...but, by all means, go to Arizona and leave Utah's "crappy" system to those of us who love it!


Arizona has less (about half the number of total elk) and does more with thier resource. B&C records only scratch the surface. Utah has more habitat plus the most money for habitat improvement and after 20 years still hasn't surpassed them.

We aren't going to agree on this it's ok. You think Utah offers great opportunities which includes shooting yearlings and cows where I don't want that to be the only elk hunting my kids get to expertise here. I see plenty of room for improvement to increase oppertunity to hunt bulls. If moving any weapon season gives us more tags do it. If reducing any weapon tag numbers gives more hunting opportunity to other user groups but gives out more tags I support it. Now that SFW seems to think a shift will provide bigger bulls with a side product of increased opportunity for more tags. You can probably guess what's about to happen.

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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Ok...we can agree to disagree, but I don't think any state does more with its resource than what Utah does. Again, for an elk population of around 65000, we offer 30 thousand+ OTC elk tags including 15000+ OTC any-bull tags combined with however many LE tags. That's a ton of opportunity--including a ton of OTC any bull opportunity--for 65000 elk.

Pretty hard to beat that in terms of "doing more with a limited resource." IN fact, around 2700 bulls were shot off any bull OTC units in 2016 (the most recent year I could find)...not bad for an OTC tag! To take it a step further, about 1/3 of all the bulls killed in Utah each year are killed on any bull OTC units!

A little closer look reveals that in Arizona 421 of the 2608 bulls killed in the same year (2016) were spikes or 16%. In Utah, by way of comparison, about 2100 of the 8084 bulls killed were spikes or around 26%. So, Utah kills 10% more spikes than Arizona but a whopping 33% more branch antlered bulls are killed by OTC tags.

I will agree, though, that Utah could offer more opportunity to shoot branch-antlered bulls. Personally, I couldn't care less when it comes to record book bulls, B&C, or P&Y. I think Utah should quit worrying about the stupid inches game and reduce the age objectives on all the LE units.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> Ok...we can agree to disagree, but I don't think any state does more with its resource than what Utah does. Again, for an elk population of around 65000, we offer 30 thousand+ OTC elk tags including 15000+ OTC any-bull tags combined with however many LE tags. That's a ton of opportunity--including a ton of OTC any bull opportunity--for 65000 elk.
> 
> Pretty hard to beat that in terms of "doing more with a limited resource." IN fact, around 2700 bulls were shot off any bull OTC units in 2016 (the most recent year I could find)...not bad for an OTC tag! To take it a step further, about 1/3 of all the bulls killed in Utah each year are killed on any bull OTC units!
> 
> I will agree, though, that Utah could offer more opportunity to shoot branch-antlered bulls. Personally, I couldn't care less when it comes to record book bulls, B&C, or P&Y. I think Utah should quit worrying about the stupid inches game and reduce the age objectives on all the LE units.


It's weird to me, if you include cow elk tags, that we offer the same number of elk tags as there are elk. That sounds like opportunity - but why do we still have so many elk though? That would make me think that its crappy hunting lol.

I could be off but it seems weird that we have a world we can offer 1:1 on tags.



> I don't think any state does more with its resource than what Utah does.


I won't argue, since this is an opinion. However, this is hard to quantify/prove.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Wouldn't it be nice if we all could go down to the store and pick up a over the counter elk tag and go out and shoot a 350-400 inch bull every year? 

But we can't do that, even in Arizona. It is called life and hunting a resource that is limited in numbers. Utah could open up their elk hunts to any bull throughout the state, but how long would it last?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Looking at 2015 side by side, Arizona blows Utah out of the water on success rates:

Utah-
Weapon	2015 Utah Elk Hunts	Success
Total	Total Antlerless-Control	18.4%
Rifle	Spike Bull Elk (OTC)	13.3%
Any Bull Elk (OTC)	18.5% 
Limited Entry Bull Elk	76.4%


What stands out, is the OTC you all speak of. 15000x 13.3%=1,995 and 15000x18.5%=2775.

So Utah offers so many OTC tags, and harvested 4770 elk. Arizona, with limited general season elk, harvested over 6500 elk at 41% success. 


Again, more tags doesn't mean better hunting. It's a trick and we can do better.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

wyoming2utah said:


> Ok...we can agree to disagree, but I don't think any state does more with its resource than what Utah does. Again, for an elk population of around 65000, we offer 30 thousand+ OTC elk tags including 15000+ OTC any-bull tags combined with however many LE tags. That's a ton of opportunity--including a ton of OTC any bull opportunity--for 65000 elk.


If less than 5% success rate is acceptable than of course tag numbers can be an incredible number. Just think of the number of tags that could be issued if LE tags had even a 25% success rate. 1/3 of total bulls killed means something around 5000 bulls are killed total out of a herd of 68000. Just think about that for a minute.

Any hunting is better than no hunting that's for sure.

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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Maybe....but, I would argue that you quantified pretty well with your observation already--we offer nearly 1:1 tags per elk...and we still have healthy viable herds and lots of trophies. That's pretty hard to beat isn't it?

You might argue that it's crappy hunting....I would argue that it's hunting. Compare that to the 0% success rates that you get when you can't get an OTC tag and the value is much higher!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Looking at 2015 side by side, Arizona blows Utah out of the water on success rates:
> 
> Utah-
> Weapon	2015 Utah Elk Hunts	Success
> ...


Better hunting? I will take the opportunity that OTC tags offer me every year for a low success hunt any time over waiting on the sidelines for 10 years to just get a tag once. And, like I have said many times before...if the hunts were so crappy, people wouldn't buy the tags. Yet, every year those tags are purchased and people hit the hills hunting with them.

Also, your comparison should also include the number of elk killed by LE hunters...overall, Utah killed over 8000 bulls.

Yeah, we could do better. Let's reduce the age objectives on all LE hunts and increase the number of tags on them!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Looking at 2015 side by side, Arizona blows Utah out of the water on success rates:


Compare apples to apples...what are Arizona's LE unit success rates compared to Utah's? Pretty similar possibly even lower aren't they?

So, we get the same LE hunt opportunity that Arizona gets (possibly even better) and we get OTC opportunity...sounds like doing more with the resource to me!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> Better hunting? I will take the opportunity that OTC tags offer me every year for a low success hunt any time over waiting on the sidelines for 10 years to just get a tag once. And, like I have said many times before...if the hunts were so crappy, people wouldn't buy the tags. Yet, every year those tags are purchased and people hit the hills hunting with them.
> 
> Also, your comparison should also include the number of elk killed by LE hunters...overall, Utah killed over 8000 bulls.
> 
> Yeah, we could do better. Let's reduce the age objectives on all LE hunts and increase the number of tags on them!


Utah kills less Bull elk then Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, Idaho, and Arizona every year. ALL of which have OTC oppty.

Arizona killed over 8000 between Muzzleloader, Youth, and General... That doesn't even begin to touch LE. In Utah, we killed 8090 with ALL our bull hunts.

You are right, Arizona has less GS tags (just over 15K general) but they aren't spike and they have a way better success rate. When there is a good oppty in Utah, they take it away (Monroe rifle spike)... So look out, as soon as we ACTUALLY kill elk they take it away. It's a facade.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> and we get OTC opportunity


You keep saying this, when I showed their "crappy" OTC actually nets more than double the harvest. Also - you say apple to apples when YOU keep bringing up our ridiculous amount of OTC GS tags that net very few elk....

You have the opportunity to be an astronaut or the president... Not all opportunity is equal. This is coming from an opportunist too! I think we can do WAY more with our resource, but if you are content sitting back and seeing what 10-20 more years of this system does, then that's your choice.

I respect others opinions... I really didn't want to get caught up defending Arizona. I would choose other systems over that. So rather then defend them, I want to go back to saying I believe Utah can do far better. I appreciate that they are looking at alternatives rather than sitting idle. I also appreciate that people at the meetings are finally saying that the point system is reaching a peak where it can be multiple lifetimes to draw a tag.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Utah kills less Bull elk then Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, Idaho, and Arizona every year. ALL of which have OTC oppty.
> 
> Arizona killed over 8000 between Muzzleloader, Youth, and General... That doesn't even begin to touch LE. In Utah, we killed 8090 with ALL our bull hunts.


First, Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, and Idaho all have significantly more elk than Utah. Second, Utah has better hunter success rates than all of those except Wyoming. Arizona kills around 9000 elk each year...the stats I am showing says that about 2700 of those are bulls. Also, unless I don't understand Arizona at all, those general tags are on a draw basis and not OTC. Utah kills a lot more elk on a yearly basis than Arizona.

Check out this comparison of elk hunting among states: http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/elk-harvest-comparison-western-states/

Also, "Wyoming claims an amazing overall 44.4% average hunter success rate (includes OTC tags), followed now by Utah at 26.2% (pending the 2016 harvest data). Idaho dropped to third place followed by Montana."

"Remember these data are from all weapons and all seasons (general and Limited) combined. Wyoming comes out on top with a five year average of 18.5 hunting days per elk harvested. Utah is in 2nd place with a four year average of 20.5 days per elk harvest.

Colorado is in 3rd place with 26.8 days per harvest and Oregon, Montana and Idaho bring up the rear with 36, 39 and 46 days per harvest."

"In this group, the success rate is lowest in Oregon at 16.8% (6th place overall), and hunter success in Idaho averages 20.9%. That makes Utah look pretty good with a 26.2% success rate (4th place) and all three of these states issue thousands of OTC tags. Elk Populations in Utah are still growing, so look for lots of antlerless tags to be issued in the future."

Notably, Arizona is absent from the comparison..."I dropped Arizona, California, Nevada and New Mexico. because these states only offer limited entry elk hunting (except for a very limited number of OTC tags in Arizona)."

http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/2013-elk-harvests/

So, again, with everything being said and considered....I'll still take Utah's management plan over other states!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

That's great info W2U... 

I still believe we can do better. I think adjusting season dates, and moving some "LE" units to 4 point or better is a start.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I agree....we could do better. I would like some changes too. And, I like the idea of making some of the LE units 4 point or better.


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