# best all round sidearm ( trail and home)



## wilky (Jun 19, 2011)

Well with hunting coming up and with my plans with hunting the archery season i want a better all round sidearm. I need it to be for both home and general carry but also for a trail gun. I have been thinking a Glock 20 in 10mm with a conversion barrel to .40 S&W for day to day carry. I have read alot online that my 1911 .45 wont be much use against a bear. I personally dont like revolvers. I want a sidearm That can take a beating and will still be reliable. a new Glock 20 is around $550 and a conversion barrel to .40S&W from Lone Wolf is $100.
I dont spend nearly as much time out in the mountains as i would like but when i am out i would like to know i have somthing besides my bear spray 
what are your ideas I open to most ideas 
Many thanks 
Wilky


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

40SW has roughly the same energy as a .45 (smaller bullet going faster than the 45's larger bullet going slower). I have and love the 40SW caliber, although it is a fairly snappy load. There are no +P loads for the 40sw as it already is a maximum load. 

I am not a glock fan... no real reason to start up an argument on why, I will just say I love my Springfield XD40 subcompact. Both it and the glock are thick guns and IMO, for IWB carry the 1911 is a better choice. 


-DallanC


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

If a 45 is no use against a bear than a 40 or 10mm won't be any better will it? I know you dont like revolvers but maybe you should go try one again. They are very reliable and can take a beating. I have a little snub nose 357 that I would feel pretty good against a bear with. Especially at self defense ranges.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

More than one way to skin a cat...........For combo home defense/bear I go a different route. Grizzlies not included here but I bought a dual purpose side arm and went with CZ 75 SP-01 (9mm steel frame). Crazy???.....It carries 18 rounds and I felt that I probably have better chance of having to defend myself at home and I would rather have twice the ammo. That many shots would probably come in handy against a black bear as well. I know most guys opt for heavier caliber but the combo of 18 shots and 9mm is pretty good defense. As accurate as anything can be as well. Shoots like a freaking dream.

I have a Ruger 44 mag if I need a bigger caliber. Another thing.... don't discount the bear spray, it is FAR more effective than you may think. Studies have proven its value against bears.

Just my opinion.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I think the best side arm is what you shoot best.

Stopping power is important, but if you cant shoot the gun, it is useless IMHO


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bax* said:


> I think the best side arm is what you shoot best.
> 
> Stopping power is important, but if you cant shoot the gun, it is useless IMHO


Bax that video is one of a few that really creeps me out. If you find a higher quality version you can see it nearly tore his trigger finger completely off and broke his thumb before shattering his shooting glasses. Crazy!

-DallanC


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Bax* said:
> 
> 
> > I think the best side arm is what you shoot best.
> ...


Really? I havent heard that part of the story. I just wanted to use the video to illustrate that not being able to hold the gun and handle the recoil makes for a firearm that is more useful as a paperweight than anything else.

That actually makes me feel pretty bad for the guy now that I know the rest of the story


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Heh yea, its gruesome... his finger is literally dangling by the tendons and his thumb is sticking off at a weird angle. He was really lucky he had those glasses on too or he might have lost an eye.

But I fully agree, something smaller you shoot well is more useful than something super powerful you cant hit anything with. 

-DallanC


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Get whatever you want then invent a rationalization.  
The chance of needing a sidearm in Utah is less than the chance of being hit by lightening _by a lot_. I know&#8230;party pooper.  
I do carry, but its just to preserve the right.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Well said Cooky and I agree. I have to rationalize about every purchase I make. Bought a mule for an employee today. Go figure.........


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

My all-around gun is a S&W model 60, 5 shot .357. With a 3" barrel it's small enough to easily conceal yet it has enough barrel to be quite accurate and subdue the recoil of heavier loads. It also comes in the Airlite version at 12 oz instead of 24, but I like the steel construction for taming recoil. I can plink with .38s when camping or at the range, I can carry toasty 125 grainers for protection against thugs, and I can load up 180 or 200 grain hard lead solids for furry attackers. A very versatile weapon, and the reason it's my choice for all-around carry. Of course the only major drawback is capacity, but I believe the first 5 shots are by far the most important.

If you end up with a .40 or 10mm...or anything else for that matter...get some hard cast lead solids for the woods. The main reason people say these cartridges are ineffective against bears/cougars is because the hollow points everyone carries are not designed to penetrate more than about 10-12" of soft tissue. The can barely make it past the hide on a bear. Many of the "hard ball" bullets have a very thin jacket as well and don't penetrate much better. If you can't find anything already loaded, get someone to load you up a bunch with the solids. They will penetrate much better. Or find some hard ball with a nice thick jacket, those should work ok too.


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## ckamanao (Mar 20, 2010)

I think your choice of the Glock 20 with the conversion barrel is perfect. I shoot the exact same thing. A company called Double Tap makes quite a few impressive loads for that 10mm round. I carry 180gr that are moving at around 1100-1200 fps. They also make a 135gr load that is traveling at 1600 fps When I'm on duty, I switch over to the conversion barrel and shoot Federals HST 160gr. PM me and we can meet up so you can try it before you buy it.


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm confused as to why a 1911 wouldn't be as effective as a 10 or a .40. Yeah it moves slower but it's a more devastating round for sure. The military shot it for years, and the only reason they dropped it for a 9mm is because of price, and the mentality of "more shots=more lead downrange=more dead hostiles". Personally I think it's stupid they dropped the 1911 for the M9. IMO there is not a more accurate and reliable package than the 1911, IF you take CARE OF IT. It sounds stupid, but no matter how nice the gun, it will still shoot like **** and let you down if you don't maintain it. 

Here's what I think
For concealed carry purposes: 1911 in .45 acp
For a hunting sidearm: a revolver with a barrel at least 3 inches long in .357, .44, or something bigger like .454

I'm with dallanc on this one, I've never shot a glock and liked it. They've alway felt low quality to me. Not to mention I think they're ugly as ****. I've shot an XD40 and it was nice. I've also shot a S&W mp40 and I was very impressed with it. But I agree, just buy what you want and justify later haha


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## ckamanao (Mar 20, 2010)

.45acp 200 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP +P: 1080fps, 518 ft/lbs @ muzzle.
10mm 200gr Nosler JHP 1250fps, 694 ft/lbs. @ muzzle. 1083fps / 521 ft lbs @ 100yds


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

ckamanao said:


> .45acp 200 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP +P: 1080fps, 518 ft/lbs @ muzzle.
> 10mm 200gr Nosler JHP 1250fps, 694 ft/lbs. @ muzzle. 1083fps / 521 ft lbs @ 100yds


Fair enough. I guess I was unaware of the performance numbers of the 10mm. That being said, they are somewhat close, and after a little looking I see that ammo prices are about the same. So, although the 10 outperforms, I don't see any reason a .45 couldn't slay a bear.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

If I were going to hunt a bear with a sidearm and wanted stopping power out to nearly 50 yards or so, then I'd look towards the 10MM or a 44 mag. But for defensive purposes, you're looking at less than 20 yard shots. A .45 or .40S&W would be enough.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

The 10mm is to the 45 what the 300 Ultra is to the 30-06......alot newer and harder, but hard pressed to provide alot more actual usefulness. For trail and home use as stated, I think that you would be hard pressed to find the 45 ACP wanting....or the 40SW for that matter. You must decide if you want to commit to the 10mm and deal with the added expense, noise, and recoil for what you will be doing. I would challenge anyone to find a case where the 45 ACP was proven insufficient in a combat or defense situation. I personally know two people who have put the 45 to service and are alive to tell the story. One was my neighbor in the Korean war, and the other is a law enforcement friend. I personally carry a Kimber Ultra Carry and have FULL confidence in it. Don't let that stop you from buying a 10mm though, I like this powerful round alot too, I just consider it much more specialized and not nearly as practical for the average pistolero.-------------SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The biggest problem that I see is trying to combine a home defense firearm with one powerful enough to put down a ticked off bear. For home defense you really don't want a round that is going to start going through multiple walls and causing problems downrange. A "trail" gun for your defense against a ticked off bear needs to be one that will stop the bear in one shot, which is likely all that you will get unless you are into the pray and spray frame of mind. 

The best defence against a bear has been proven to be bear spray. You don't even have to aim it, just point in the general direction and pull the trigger. For a home defense round I would pick a light recoiling one such as the .38 special or even a 9mm.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Critter said:


> The best defence against a bear has been proven to be bear spray. You don't even have to aim it, just point in the general direction and pull the trigger. For a home defense round I would pick a light recoiling one such as the .38 special or even a 9mm.


Bingo.....you will also probably find that you would shoot the 38 or the 9mm more often because they are cheap to shoot and you would probably be more accurate because of it. I won't knock any of the calibers that have been mentioned because I really don't think there is "best all around". It really comes down to preference.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

ckamanao said:


> .45acp 200 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP +P: 1080fps, 518 ft/lbs @ muzzle.
> 10mm 200gr Nosler JHP 1250fps, 694 ft/lbs. @ muzzle. 1083fps / 521 ft lbs @ 100yds


I'm impressed that you are capable of shooting across the sky screens of your chronograph at 100 yards with a handgun. I don't dare shoot a handgun at my chronograph at distances more than 10 yards (I learned fast after I shot the first one I owned).


Critter said:


> The best defence against a bear has been proven to be bear spray. You don't even have to aim it, just point in the general direction and pull the trigger.


Although it isn't as much fun to debate that is probably the best answer for the "and home" part too.

If you want a new gun you're going to have pick an excuse and run with it, logic will kill you every time.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Cooky said:


> If you want a new gun you're going to have pick an excuse and run with it, logic will kill you every time.


Indeed! In fact, there is no combo, so you need two new ones; I can write up a prescription for both remedies today. 
I saw a test on the bear spray once and it was interesting to see. The simulated a person being startled from behind, drawing and shooting and only got one good shot off, which most believe not to be enough, but the spray covered the target area quite well.

The .357 has been mentioned several times; I don't yet understand this round. I read once something to the effect of "all of the new fangled rounds out there the 357 is still the best at stopping power." Again, just paraphrasing. As I look at the data charts of those rounds out there I still don't see how they arrived at that conclusion according to the data, not that I have seen the actual results. I presume that such a claim would easily be supported by some ballistics data. Not to hijack, but I believe that the question also relates to the topic. 
357 mag = 125 gr Bonded Defense JHP 1,600 ft/s 710 ft·lbf
454 Casull = 240 gr XTP JHP 1,900 ft/s 1,923 ft·lbf 
The Casull is clearly an extreme comparison, but the statement was saying it was the best...


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

Huge29 said:


> The .357 has been mentioned several times; I don't yet understand this round. I read once something to the effect of "all of the new fangled rounds out there the 357 is still the best at stopping power." Again, just paraphrasing. As I look at the data charts of those rounds out there I still don't see how they arrived at that conclusion according to the data, not that I have seen the actual results. I presume that such a claim would easily be supported by some ballistics data. Not to hijack, but I believe that the question also relates to the topic.
> 357 mag = 125 gr Bonded Defense JHP 1,600 ft/s 710 ft·lbf
> 454 Casull = 240 gr XTP JHP 1,900 ft/s 1,923 ft·lbf
> The Casull is clearly an extreme comparison, but the statement was saying it was the best...


The .357 is a great round. Not my personal favorite or anything, but I like it fine. Wherever you read that it is number one for stopping power... That is BS. That's not even plausible. There are so many rounds that outperform it that it's not even funny. One thing you may not have considered is that the .454 is sort of still a wildcat cartridge. While some big manufacturers are now making guns and ammo for the casull it is still sort of on the fringe. Maybe when the article in question was written, these bigger wildcat cartridges weren't around? I don't know, just thinking out loud...


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Huge, The 357 is classified as the best self defense round by compiling data on actual shootings, not based on velocity, bullet weight, bullet diameter comparisons. The study was based on real shootings to determine how often the fight was stopped with one shot. If I recall correctly, the criteria was that there was one hit to the assailant, and the 357 stopped the fight 85% of the time. I don't recall the specifics of the criteria, I read about it 20 something years ago. If you google "Evan Marshall" you should find everything you want to know about this study.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Well Wilky, I guess you’re just going to have to go get a Smith and Wesson 500 and a wheelbarrow. 

OOO°)OO


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I cant believe no one has said a .17 HMR :roll:


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Bax* said:


> I cant believe no one has said a .17 HMR :roll:


See, that's why you don't commit to a rationalization!


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Cooky said:


> Bax* said:
> 
> 
> > I cant believe no one has said a .17 HMR :roll:
> ...


Cooky, I commit all the time, well.... most of the time..... Actually some times.... Danget Cooky!


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

I know you dont like revolvers, but if you want a small carry gun that can take a beating but also dish out a good beating; get a .357 mag snub nose. I got a .357 mag last year and I love it, It makes a great side arm while out hunting.


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## ckamanao (Mar 20, 2010)

From: www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Denmark

" The standard SIG210 Neuhausen sidearm was recently replaced by the 10mm Glock 20, as the stopping power of multiple 9mm rounds proved to be insufficient against a polar bear."

Then get the .40 conversion barrel and your set.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Loke said:


> Huge, The 357 is classified as the best self defense round by compiling data on actual shootings, not based on velocity, bullet weight, bullet diameter comparisons. The study was based on real shootings to determine how often the fight was stopped with one shot. If I recall correctly, the criteria was that there was one hit to the assailant, and the 357 stopped the fight 85% of the time. I don't recall the specifics of the criteria, I read about it 20 something years ago. If you google "Evan Marshall" you should find everything you want to know about this study.


That would make more sense, thanks! It may have just been the wording that threw me off. I forget the source of the info-presumably a TV program of some sort.


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## ennis (Oct 1, 2012)

ckamanao said:


> I think your choice of the Glock 20 with the conversion barrel is perfect. I shoot the exact same thing. A company called Double Tap makes quite a few impressive loads for that 10mm round. I carry 180gr that are moving at around 1100-1200 fps. They also make a 135gr load that is traveling at 1600 fps When I'm on duty, I switch over to the conversion barrel and shoot Federals HST 160gr. PM me and we can meet up so you can try it before you buy it.


I honestly am sorry to see the decline in quality control at Double Tap. In the past few months I have seen reports of mis-sized bullets, over stated velocity figures and casting culls being shipped out. I have been a long time customer but am getting nervous about continuing to as one.Some truly scary pictues of their hard cast 200gr load. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=166926


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## Kdub (Sep 6, 2010)

Oh the arguement of calibers! Shoot a bunch of different guns and find one that you like. I'm a Glock guy. Some on here bash them. That's ok. Glocks are durable, simple, reliable, and accurate. What more could you ask for. I've never shot a 10mm so I can't help there. I'm a firm believer in .40. 15 rounds of .40 against a human or a bear? Pretty sure its going to go down as long as you hit it. Most important thing is choosing a gun that fits your hand well and "feels" good to you.


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## Watcher (Dec 31, 2008)

Fun - I just went through this exercise. 
And I love to do research - some fun is over as soon as you buy it. 
I also wanted a semi auto.
So I started with the round.
After all the research I kept coming back to the 10mm. High performance rounds (combinations of muzzle velocity and bullet weight = energy) perform right along side the 357 mag. As you know, in the 80s the criminals kept outgunning agents so this round was developed for the FBI. It turned out to be too much for some so they cut the case down and called it the 40 S&W. But I digress. It is the most powerful "common" semi-auto round out there.
So then on the to gun.
Glocks have the reputation of being indestructable and foolproof. Under extreme stress, it's said you function at 20% mental capacity and the fool proof aspect becomes important. That being said, I just don't like the Glock safety system - it scares me. I like a true mechanical safety. So what else is there and what did I buy? A Tangfolio imported by European American Arms (EAA). It's also known as the EAA Witness.
http://eaacorp.com/hand-guns
This brand comes out of the gun manufacturing area of Italy and has a solid reputation. The gun is based on the Ceck CZ design and so has a real solid pedigree. It has a 14 round capacity so one magazine is all you need. I opted for the poly, long barrel to cut some weight but keep the accuracy.

I've only put a hundred rounds through it but it just keeps getting smoother. I've not had a misfire and it hits were I aim.

So I load it up alternating between hollow points and full metal jackets cause I don't know what works best??

For grizzly bears - I think I'll go with spray
For a black bears and cougar - I like the 14 shots!
For a Utah "ghost" wolf - bring it on baby! SSS 
For a perpetrator - no worrys!

I'd suggest taking a look at this gun .


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## Watcher (Dec 31, 2008)

Can't let this go. I went back to my research and looked at 10mm - verus - .357mag - versus 45 Auto.

The hottest round I could find was Winchester:
10mm, 175g, Silver Tip- Hollow Point, 1290 fps, 649 ft-lbs
357 mag, 145g Silver Tip - Hollow Point, 1290 fps, 535 ft-lbs
45 Auto, 185g, Silver Tip - Hollow Point, 1000 fps, 411 ft-lbs

The hottest Full Metal Jacket I could find was Remington:
10mm, 180g, Metal Case, 1150 fps, 529 ft-lbs
357 mag not available in metal case
(Sellier&Bellot 357 mag, 158g, FMJ, 1394 fps, 683 ft-lbs) 
45 Auto, 185g Metal Case, 1015 fps, 423 ft-lbs
45 Auto, 230g metal Case, 835 fps, 356 ft-lbs

I recognize it's not all about energy but in my mind the 10mm stacks up against the 357mag and there is a real difference between a 10mm and a 45 Auto.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

None of us has ever shot any significant number of bears with a handgun but there _are_ people who have and one of them is the head honcho of Buffalo Bore bullets, Tim Sundles. To partially quote his FAQ on the subject:
_(Keep in mind that Utah currently has only black bears.)_

"*Stopping" bears with handgun *or rifle *cartridges*"

I get asked about this OFTEN. Having killed dozens of bear and guided hunters for dozens more, I have firsthand knowledge. Additionally, I have been hanging around bear guides all my adult life and between us, we've seen over a thousand bears killed. We have come to some consensus on the best tools and methods of killing bears with guns.

First, not all bears are the same. Grizzly bears have a much different mindset than the black bears species. To stop a grizzly attack, you will PROBABLY have to kill it, but sometimes all you have to do is to hurt it badly and the bear will become dissuaded. So, when planning to stop grizzly attacks, it is best to use a cartridge that will kill it-the quicker the better. Interior grizzlies normally get no bigger than 500 lbs, but in Montana, I've seen interior bears around 900 lbs., but this is very rare. Coastal grizzlies, sometimes known as Alaskan Brown Bears, often exceed 1000 lbs. If you are relying on shoulder or heart/lung shots to kill such a bear, it takes a lot of cartridge. One that will make a big hole that goes very deeply through bone and into internal organs. If you hit him fatally in the chest area, you will then have roughly 15 to 30 seconds to stay alive before the bear learns he is dead. If you are relying on brain shots, it is not all that hard to kill adult grizzly bears. Almost any center fire cartridge of 357 bore or larger with a very hard non-expanding, flat nosed bullet will pierce a bears skull with direct /frontal (between the eyes) hits. From the side angle, shoot them right at the bottom of the ear canal. These two shots are instant death, if you are using correct ammo. The old MYTH that bullets will slide off a bear's skull is pure hogwash, when using modern ammo featuring bullets that will not mushroom when fired out of a powerful handgun. When using high powered rifles, it is OK if the bullet mushrooms as the high velocity of the rifle bullet, will puncture the bears skull regardless, because of its high velocity. 150 years ago, when the early settlers were heading west, the muzzle loaders they used, fired pure lead (very soft) round balls that would or could flatten out against bone and possibly slide off, leaving only a surface wound, when hitting a bears head. Unless you are using pure lead bullets that are rounded, this situation is no longer a concern.

Black bears are very different mentally, than grizzly bears. Black bears come in red, brown, blonde, and black color phases, but they are all black bear species and should be considered "black bears" regardless of color phase. While black bears have much the same physical qualities (normally smaller) of grizzly bears, they GENERALLY have a much different mindset.

To stop black bears, all you have to do is hurt them; you do not need to kill them. *Almost any center fire handgun cartridge will dissuade a black bear if you hit them well with it*. The more powerful the cartridge, the more damage you'll potentially do to the bear, but nearly any black bear will turn tail if he is hit with a cartridge such as good stiff 9mm load. I know this argues against prevailing wisdom, but prevailing wisdom is based mostly on speculation, not real world experience and is not really wisdom.

We make "bear loads" in smaller chamberings such as 9mm, (item 24F) 38 SPL+P, (item 20H) and 357 mag. (item 19A). We do this because a lot of people own those guns and don't want to buy a 454 Casull or 44 mag. I would have no problem defending myself against a black bear attack (and have done so) with the proper 9mm ammo. I prefer a more powerful/bigger cartridge, but the 9MM will get it done, even on grizzlies, if you take their brain. Of course, making a brain shot under such duress, will take practice and cool nerves..."

So something like this could work - or the other choices mentioned - with the proper deep-penetrating bullet and reasonable enough recoil to get a quick second (or more) shot in:


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## twinkielk15 (Jan 17, 2011)

I carry a Glock 23. It's a 40S&W and I adore it. When I was shopping it came down to the Springfield XD and the Glock. I chose the Glock for the simple reason that it fit my hand better. I have Springfields and love them as well. The Glock was just more comfortable.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Check out the FBI report on stopping power and time to expiration of opponant...enlightning reading about the .45, .40, .357, 9mm, and the 10mm


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

wapiti67 said:


> Check out the FBI report on stopping power and time to expiration of opponant...enlightning reading about the .45, .40, .357, 9mm, and the 10mm


Do you have a link?


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