# Waiting periods



## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

I was just thinking about the drawings and how everybody has a different idea of what's the best way to hand out tags. Some like the 50% of LE tags given out to random applicants, some (with high #s of points especially) would rather all tags be given to high point holders. So if we can't please everyone by changing the drawing, maybe we can square things up on the other end.

I don't believe our current waiting periods accomplish anything at all. You are not excluded from the drawing after drawing a tag - only from a certain part of the drawing. So we might as well just scrap the current waiting periods (other than OIL) because they are useless.

A true waiting period would exclude you from the LE drawing. It should be assigned in a way that levels the field for everyone. I don't feel like it's fair at all that Juan Doe can draw a tag for a premium area with 0 points and then be right back in the drawing for the same permit within 2-5 years. Meanwhile, his neighbor is waiting in line for a bonus tag for 15 years, after which he gets slapped with a waiting period! Juan lucked out on the tag, why should he be able to now compete against everyone else who is still waiting for that tag? Not fair at all. 

So, I suggest that waiting periods be assigned equally to everyone. If a tag is taking someone 15 years to draw then the people drawing bonus tags are waiting 15 years. So that tag should have a 15 year wait, regardless of who draws it. Why slap the guy who just waited 15 years with a waiting period?!! Ridiculous. 

Applicant A: Draws a bonus tag with 15 points. He should get no waiting period because he has already waited a long time.

Applicant B: Draws the same tag with 10 points. He should now wait 5 more years before applying for any other LE tag to put him on equal grounds with Applicant A.

Applicant C: Draws the same tag with 0 points. He should now wait 15 more years before applying for any other LE tag to put him on equal grounds with applicants A and B.

Additionally I feel like bonus points should no longer be species-specific. If your unit of choice goes to crap and you decide you'd rather chase elk than deer your points would go with you for next year's elk drawing.

I believe under these regulations we would see a steady drop in how long it takes to draw a tag. The waiting would be distributed equally and nobody would have reason to complain! Of course the message boards would be a lot quieter come April.


----------



## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Or we just make the LE tags oil and give everyone a turn.-()/>-


----------



## Kevinitis (Jul 18, 2013)

I like the current system better. If you are going to have such long waiting periods, why not just have a line? In other words, base it all on points. Frankly I like having a chance each year no matter how small. Current waiting periods do work. For example, if you draw an LE elk, then you have a 5year wait, in which time you can put in for deer. Then at the end of 5 years, you have a decision, do you keep on with the deer or do you go back to elk? At least some stick with deer while others will go back to elk. I think it's fair and gives everyone a shot at a tag. I also like how there are different quality for tags. For example the premium is more desirable than early rifle etc. I also like that there are different quality with age classes. For example, elk tags with 6-7 year age class versus those with 8-9 year age for bulls and those with 4-5 year age classes. That way I can choose to put in for one that has a higher likelihood of drawing or draws with less points. Other guys might want to put in for tags that take forever to draw. Examples; San Juan elk versus three corners.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The problem with the way that Utah's system is right now is that a person with 0 points almost has a better chance of drawing a tag than one with close to max points. That along with being able to draw a tag again after their 5 year wait. I personally know of 2 elk hunters that have drawn 2 LE rifle elk tags before another hunter has even drawn his first tag in the same unit, one drew with 0 points both times and the other with 2 pts the first time and 1 pt the second.

So unless you are going to compleatly revamp it and tick off hundreds of hunters with max points leave it alone, at least we know how screwed up it is now.


----------



## Kevinitis (Jul 18, 2013)

I don't think it's screwed up at all. I mean, the guy with just less than max still had the same chance as the person who has 2 or zero. And you have to consider those who have drawn twice versus once in the context of which ones they were putting in for. My uncle has 17 points and is trying to draw San Juan, which even with max points is still like 1 in 4 odds. Verus me, who is ok putting in for and has drawn other units with better odds. So you can't just compare my draw results with his. The odds are just that different between hunts, but each of us had one chance each year.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I agree with Critter. Either revamp the whole system or leave it alone. I would hate to think that everybody would have to wait the same 15 years that I have just because I have been putting in for a premium tag. So far along now that it would almost be a shame to change my course. If I had to do it again though I would surely do things different.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I would much rather see the hunting dates adjusted first. Rotate the seasons or something. The catering to the rifle hunters needs to come to an end.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> The problem with the way that Utah's system is right now is that a person with 0 points almost has a better chance of drawing a tag than one with close to max points.


You know, I hear this one quite often, and while yes you can always point out to people that this happens to, the raw numbers show that they are almost NOWHERE near the same---they just got crazy good luck! (heck, my wife's LE elk tag this year is like that she had 1 pt, I had 10....but that is something I love about this state!)


----------



## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

So the people who have drawn tags with only a few points love the sytem! Big surprise there. And people who have been waiting half their lives for a tag regret putting forth so much time and effort...again it's shocking. A lot of different opinions about our system depending on how lucky you happen to be. One thing I would also add to my proposed waiting period scheme is to equalize the $ cost for all hunters as well. Applicant A spent $150 in application fees for his tag on top of the permit itself whereas Applicant C only spent $10. If you draw with fewer points you should be assessed a fee to even things out.

Muleskinner, I could not agree with you more on the rut hunts for elk. LE deer hunts are during the same time as the general seasons with a couple of exceptions. Elk hunters have the obstacle of spike hunters on the general season dates but I think it could be figured out just fine. Heck, put the spike hunt in September if need be.


----------



## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I would hate to think that everybody would have to wait the same 15 years that I have just because I have been putting in for a premium tag. So far along now that it would almost be a shame to change my course. If I had to do it again though I would surely do things different.


This is exactly why I think we need to change the waiting periods. A premium tag is costing you 15+ years of applications. Why should it cost someone else any less? The waiting periods would be clearly set forth for each hunt based on the length of time people are _already_ waiting for that tag.

One other idea I have had regarding points: You should be able to use them like any other form of currency to "buy" a tag. People with 15 points like yourself don't want to burn them all for a hunt that could be drawn with 8 or 9...but what if you could use 9 of your points for that tag and retain the other 6? Having drawn a bonus tag you would not incur a waiting period and would be able to draw another hunt relatively soon (if waiting periods were changed). Also, if points were not species-specific you would have even more options for your next hunt.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

El Matador said:


> This is exactly why I think we need to change the waiting periods. A premium tag is costing you 15+ years of applications. Why should it cost someone else any less? The waiting periods would be clearly set forth for each hunt based on the length of time people are _already_ waiting for that tag.
> 
> One other idea I have had regarding points: You should be able to use them like any other form of currency to "buy" a tag. People with 15 points like yourself don't want to burn them all for a hunt that could be drawn with 8 or 9...but what if you could use 9 of your points for that tag and retain the other 6? Having drawn a bonus tag you would not incur a waiting period and would be able to draw another hunt relatively soon (if waiting periods were changed). Also, if points were not species-specific you would have even more options for your next hunt.


Yea I agree with this. I also would like to be able to apply OIL points a different species at will every year. If I decide that I don't want to hunt bison as much as goat anymore I should be able to apply OIL points that I have been using towards bison and apply them to a goat.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't know about being able to use your points on different animals. How would you feel if you spent 20 years accumulating points and then someone came over from another animal with 22 points and drew the tag? Also someone mentioned being able to use only as many points as it takes to draw a tag and banking the rest. How are you going to know how many points it takes? I have seen draws where the max point holders didn't draw and others will less points did. Now if you went to a preference point system similar to Colorado's then you could have a hybrid draw where if you had more than 5 points for a animal you could put in for the draw where it normally takes a lot more points and be able to draw a tag. 

Kevinitis, ask you uncle how he feel about putting in for a hunt with 17 points and not drawing when 5 others put in with less points and drew. On the San Juan hunt there were 2 with 15 points, 2 with 11 points, and 1 with 7 points that drew tags this year.


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

All of the problems with the current draw system could be solved by eliminating the lottery system all together and charging fair market value for each and every permit. Let the market dictate the price and who gets the tags. It's called capitalism.

How is selling state owned property (in this case wildlife) for less than market value even tolerated/legal in the first place?


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

oldTimer said:


> All of the problems with the current draw system could be solved by eliminating the lottery system all together and charging fair market value for each and every permit. Let the market dictate the price and who gets the tags. It's called capitalism.
> 
> How is selling state owned property (in this case wildlife) for less than market value even tolerated/legal in the first place?


That is the worst idea there is. You have any idea how many kids would never get to hunt? Average Joe would not get to hunt. Only the wealthy and most of them would not get to hunt either. Special interest groups would end up holding all of the tags. Hunting corporations. Fair market value my butt. You think hoarding of ammo is a problem?


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

Mr Muleskinner said: "You have any idea how many kids would never get to hunt?"

The answer is kids with parents who are willing to buy a tag for what it is worth.

Follow up question for you... do you know how many years a kid (new to hunting) with no points will have to live in order to be guaranteed a Moose tag under the current system? Hint - well over 300 years.


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

oldTimer said:


> All of the problems with the current draw system could be solved by eliminating the lottery system all together and charging fair market value for each and every permit. Let the market dictate the price and who gets the tags. It's called capitalism.
> 
> How is selling state owned property (in this case wildlife) for less than market value even tolerated/legal in the first place?


So, all of Utah's roads should be toll roads?

We already have enough of those tags, ie; Conservation tags, CWMU tags and Landowner tags. In addition, we have private individuals, ranches and corporations who charge access fees for regular tags.

Additionally, the fair market value also includes the time it takes to draw the tag and the application fees spent while waiting. Capitalism is alive and well in the hunting community!


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I agree that even as screw up as the current system is to open it up to who can afford it is the worst idea out there. At least now kids have a chance to draw a tag even if it is a small one. If you open it up to what the market price might be 99% of all hunters would never be able to purchase a tag. 

Let me guess oldTimer, you have more money than you know what to do with and can afford a few thousand each year for hunting permits or hunts on private ranches?


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

oldTimer said:


> All of the problems with the current draw system could be solved by eliminating the lottery system all together and charging fair market value for each and every permit. Let the market dictate the price and who gets the tags. It's called capitalism.
> 
> How is selling state owned property (in this case wildlife) for less than market value even tolerated/legal in the first place?


The market has already dictated the fair market price per the public input, ie; RAC and Wildlife Board meetings and general elections. Since the DWR "owns" the wildlife and since it's part of the Utah State Government and since the Utah State Government consists of the citizens of Utah, then that means I'm one of the owners. It also means I'm also one of my own customers and I don't know about you, but I'm not going to sponser or approve of any policies that would prevent me from being a customer of a "business" that I own!

Additionally, the DWR is the ONLY entity in Utah that "owns" the wildlife which means they/we have a monoply so there isn't even a Utah competitor I could buy from to be able to establish a fair market price. Unless, of course, I go out of state, but even then, there's already established fair market values as the states compete with each other.

And we're just talking about big game permits. What about upland game, waterfowl, fishing, trapping, as well as licences?

You're more than welcome to promote your idea, but I for one will oppose it at every turn!


----------



## crod (Jul 18, 2013)

My feeling is, if the state is going to hold a "lottery" for these tags, it should be a real lottery where every applicant has an equal chance. Do away with the BS of bonus & preference points, choose a reasonable waiting period (3-5 yrs) and treat all of your applicants as equals instead of making the bulk of applicants feel like second class citizens. I understand that a lot of people have been waiting many many years to have a shot at certain LE tags, but as a person that doesn't have 18 bonus points, I am at the point it is becoming more and more appealing to start hunting out of state where non-resident tags are easier to come by. Yes they are more expensive, but at least you can get them. How would you feel about buying a PowerBall ticket knowing that the guy buying a ticket behind you has 10-20 times better odds with his ticket than you do with yours? I know I wouldn't feel to good... Just make it a normal lottery approach.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

oldTimer said:


> Mr Muleskinner said: "You have any idea how many kids would never get to hunt?"
> 
> The answer is kids with parents who are willing to buy a tag for what it is worth.
> 
> Follow up question for you... do you know how many years a kid (new to hunting) with no points will have to live in order to be guaranteed a Moose tag under the current system? Hint - well over 300 years.


wrong. If the tags were to go to high bidders corporate money would get far more involved than it is. The day we have to bid on a tag in order to have kid hunt is the day that the majority of kids won't be able to hunt. Maybe you don't see this as a problem. I do. When future generations lose the ability to take part in the act they will lose what little voice they have on how to manage it.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Learn to put your emphasis on general and OTC hunting, then take the LE tags if and when they come. Hint...there are OTC tags in other states that rival some of our LE hunts and there are great opportunities on our own general hunts. This will alleviate stress and make hunting fun. If I never see another LE tag in Utah, I will still be making memories every year.------SS


----------



## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Good advise, SS. I try to make the most of general hunts here in Utah, but I also recognize the big price we are paying to have these LE hunts. So many acres of our public land is locked up in these units. I just want to make the return worth the investment, that's all. Personally I think we give up more than we get back with these hunts, but with a few changes it could be a better deal for the majority of hunters.


----------



## crod (Jul 18, 2013)

El Matador said:


> Good advise, SS. I try to make the most of general hunts here in Utah, but I also recognize the big price we are paying to have these LE hunts. So many acres of our public land is locked up in these units. I just want to make the return worth the investment, that's all. Personally I think we give up more than we get back with these hunts, but with a few changes it could be a better deal for the majority of hunters.


Agreed... get rid of bonus & preference points, and run a true "lottery" where every entry has an equal chance to draw.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Utah has one of the better draw system's....Leave it alone.

The 5 year waiting period on elk is a bit to long, but the rest are good.


----------



## Kevinitis (Jul 18, 2013)

Critter said:


> I don't know about being able to use your points on different animals. How would you feel if you spent 20 years accumulating points and then someone came over from another animal with 22 points and drew the tag? Also someone mentioned being able to use only as many points as it takes to draw a tag and banking the rest. How are you going to know how many points it takes? I have seen draws where the max point holders didn't draw and others will less points did. Now if you went to a preference point system similar to Colorado's then you could have a hybrid draw where if you had more than 5 points for a animal you could put in for the draw where it normally takes a lot more points and be able to draw a tag.
> 
> Kevinitis, ask you uncle how he feel about putting in for a hunt with 17 points and not drawing when 5 others put in with less points and drew. On the San Juan hunt there were 2 with 15 points, 2 with 11 points, and 1 with 7 points that drew tags this year.


He had the same chances as everyone else each year he put in. He bitches about it but he could put in for fish lake, south cache, three corners etc. and draw out at any point! But he has to have that 400 class bull. I was content to shoot a 300-330. That's the difference. Each of those guys in the San Juan are signing up for the same thing. The draw odds from the previous year are posted publicly and everyone should know what they are signed up for for each hunt. If you are going to put in for those premium units your gonna have to wait. IF you don't want to wait put in for different units, or go buy a CWMU tag for $6,000-$10,000.


----------



## Kevinitis (Jul 18, 2013)

El Matador said:


> Good advise, SS. I try to make the most of general hunts here in Utah, but I also recognize the big price we are paying to have these LE hunts. So many acres of our public land is locked up in these units. I just want to make the return worth the investment, that's all. Personally I think we give up more than we get back with these hunts, but with a few changes it could be a better deal for the majority of hunters.


I agree with this. We have most of Utah as LE elk hunts. There is always a trade off with quality vs opportunity. I would like to see more of these units as any bull rather than waiting 12-20 years for a tag. Then a trophy would really mean something. I think shooting as spike is more impressive and challenging than shooting a huge bull with a LE tag.


----------



## crod (Jul 18, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> Utah has one of the better draw system's....Leave it alone.
> 
> The 5 year waiting period on elk is a bit to long, but the rest are good.


Try moose hunting in Maine... 10 year wait


----------



## GBell (Sep 2, 2013)

Bonus points and waiting periods are the worst thing to ever happen to game management in Utah.

Go with a straight luck of the draw with no waiting periods.


----------



## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

I actually like Utah's point system. Not too crazy about some of the season dates.... but that is a different topic.
It benefits people who have spent time trying to get a specific tag, but still anyone can draw. Anyone can still go buy an OTC tag and have a hunt every fall, on public land.
I like the waiting period. Again it allows for more opportunity for the people who really want that tag. After I draw an elk tag, I'll probably apply for deer for a few years.
If you want to shoot a "trophy class" animal and still have opportunity to hunt every year, I don't see a better option. I think they should get rid of the expo tags and just put them into the normal draw. Let the expo make its money on something we aren't all taxed for...


----------



## Kevinitis (Jul 18, 2013)

Here is the thing about it, what motivation does any hunter have to put in if there is no chance to draw? If I knew for sure that I had to wait 15+ years to get a tag then why would I put in each year. If you are going to change waiting periods, why not just have a waiting list instead? No, I would rather have a chance each year and then some type of system that allowed people who have not drawn a better chance (point system). I actually think it is the best solution to give everyone a chance while at the same time giving preference to those who have been putting in for the longest time.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> Utah has one of the better draw system's....Leave it alone.


+1

Besides reform in the deer draw, which is another issue, one other thing that could spread things out a bit would be to make the so called "premium" LE draws OIL. That would cut some of the waiting for these sought after tags.


----------



## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I'm ok with Utah's system, both groups in the fight get their chance at tags
It's all about the individual hunter's expectations... if you will only be satisfied with chasing the beast of all beasts with your .30 magnum during the rut on the San Juan, Monroe, Pahvant, Beaver, etc. then settle in & get confortable. You should be prepared to be playing the game for a long time... there's always a chance with this system that you could get crazy lucky, but be ready for a nice long wait. We're all big boys here & you shold be able to prepare yourself for the wait emotionally, spiritually, and come to grips with you own expectations. 
There are many units out there that don't require a 20 year wait, you could hunt some really nice units every 10 years (or less) if you put away that .30 magnum and pull back a string.
Waiting periods are fine, too. It just gives me an excuse to put in for deer or pronghorn.
For me it's about learning the current system & figuring out how to make it work for me instead of griping about it. I'll never be able to change it.


----------



## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Well I guess my efforts to keep this topic about waiting periods (not the drawing itself) have failed  Ah no big deal, we all just want to give our 2 cents.

Torowy, just so you know: The expo tags were taken out of the draw to begin with. They are not a separate allocation. The same is true of Conservation permits. The DWR/Wildlife Board sets the number of tags for each hunt and then the expo and Conservation tags are deducted from that number.


----------



## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

The only way that I could see assigning different waiting periods on different units would be to use the DWRs age objectives as guidance:
7.5-8 Age Objective: 10 years 
6.5-7 Age Objective: 7 years 
5.5-6 Age Objective: 5 years 
4.5-5 Age Objective: 2 years 
But that's very arbitrary & I don't see how you could honestly impose a waiting period of anything longer than 10 years on anybody... you may as well make it OIAL. The only thing it would do is thin out the herd looking for the top tier tag (but it would make so that I could hunt the unit closest to home sooner... so let's do it!). I think the 5 years as it currently is is about as long as I'd dare make it if I could make the rules.
Face it... you draw a Monroe tag (or San Juan or Beaver... you pick) & you're screaming your brains when you have to wait 10 years while I draw, wait, and draw again a "lesser" tag in that same timeframe... somebody will always be unhappy with the system & somebody will always think it's great, just depends on which side of the coin you're on.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I actually don't mind hunters drawing 2 tags on the Wasatch while I am waiting for my 1 tag for the Monroe, but when there are hunters that draw 2 tags on the Monroe while I am still waiting for my first one that is where the line should be drawn. Now that is all hypothetical for the Monroe unit but it has been done on others that I know of.


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

I do not understand why so many people on this forum feel that doing away with the draw system in favor of a market value system is a bad idea and would eliminate all youth hunting opportunity. Take a look at the odds of drawing an OIL tag. A youth just entering the draw system with no points will never have a reasonable chance of drawing a tag (If you do not agree with that statement reply to this post and I will suggest some remedial probability and statics classes at a local community college). So, for example, if your youth wants to hunt moose, if you are honest, here is what the conversation should be:

Realistically you will never be able to hunt moose in Utah unless you are one of the luckiest people on planet earth.

I would rather be able to have the following conversation with my children:

Moose are a very limited and valuable resource. In order to be able to hunt one you will need to work hard, sacrifice, and save money for a number of years.

And... in the bigger picture of life in general I feel it is better to tell your children to study hard in school, get a good job, be financially responsible and save for major purchases, emergencies, retirement, and yes hunts.

I feel it would be pathetic, sick, and sad to tell a child; if you want to succeed and get what you want in life play the Power Ball lottery, after all, somebodies going to win; everyone has a chance. If you do not win the lottery, there is always welfare. You will be true capitalist and entitled to the welfare because of all the time you spend making illegitimate children and filling out the welfare applications.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

oldTimer, what you suggested already exist. Work hard, save you money and then head north and buy a moose, mountain goat, sheep, and bison tags over the counter. 

All it takes is money.


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

Critter, you know of a place up north where you can buy a Shiras moose, mountain goat, rocky mountain and desert sheep, and free range bison tags over the counter where you are not required by law to have a guide?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The guide is what you are saving for, the tags are cheap. 

If it goes the way that you want it to do you really expect to be able to purchase a moose tag in Utah for under $5000.00?


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

oldTimer lets say that happened. Do you not think for a second that a Utah Sheep tag would become so expensive due to inflation that your kids may never have enough money? One in a million chance at drawing is better than the knowing that in the future they would all cost in excess of $20,000. I am a guy that has been more fortunate than most, I am an avid hunter and I have prioritized a fair amount of my spending as such. Your idea does not really benefit anybody. The rich or the poor. Sure those that save a stupid amount of money to hunt sheep will be able to do it where as others will not but is that really the model that anybody would want? Rich or Poor? I don't think so. 

There were 46 desert sheep tags last year. What do you think the cost of those would be after 10 years of bidding wars? 

The sheep hunts in Canada are so stupid expensive that it is not about being a sportsman at all anymore to many of them. Most of the people that buy those tags really on do so because they can and they want to show others that they can.


----------



## GBell (Sep 2, 2013)

Kiss Pittman Robertson and other funds goodbye. The highest bidder mentality has done enough **** damage in this state.


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

Mr. Muleskinner, it may take a person years in order to save enough money for a sheep hunt but at least it would be obtainable. For example, suppose a sheep tag did cost 20,000 (as you estimate above); if you save $200 a month you could be hunting in 8 or 9 years (how does that not help the average person?). The way it is now, realistically, you will never hunt.

As someone mentioned on another thread; we have all bought into a pyramid scheme. The people who got in early and now have max points are set but anyone entering now is totally (want to say screwed here but not sure it will make it past the moderators) messed up. The current draw system is a text book example of a pyramid scheme and lottery all rolled into one big smelly turd.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

If it is just about saving money and hunting, that option already exists. Hunting auctions are all over the place. SCI, the expo and several others including a ton of banquets. Every year they go for more and more. Bigger population, bigger banquets more wealthy people, same amount of tags. A perfect example of a pyramid scheme.

No worries here about it ever becoming a reality though. No way would it ever pass. This state would far sooner become a pure random draw. Neither will ever happen here.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

oldTimer said:


> Critter, you know of a place up north where you can buy a Shiras moose, mountain goat, rocky mountain and desert sheep, and free range bison tags over the counter where you are not required by law to have a guide?


yep right at the expo in February. See them sell off for thousands every year


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

Critter, If I wanted to hunt with a guide then Utah's CWMU system would be fine. I know of no place up north where you can buy the tags you've listed over the counter. Unfortunately, all states I'm aware of still follow the old out dated "North America Model" This old antiquated model was established more than 500 years ago when hunting was done primarily to provide food for your family.


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> If it is just about saving money and hunting, that option already exists. Hunting auctions are all over the place. SCI, the expo and several others including a ton of banquets. Every year they go for more and more. Bigger population, bigger banquets more wealt
> 
> No worries here about it ever becoming a reality though. No way would it ever pass. This state would far sooner become a pure random draw. Neither will ever happen here.


The principals of economics dictate that if more permits where available the cost would go down. That is why it is important to get all of the permits into the market driven model.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

the auction tags would go down sure and then they would all continue to climb. Supply and demand would dictate that. Won't happen though.


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> the auction tags would go down sure and then they would all continue to climb. Supply and demand would dictate that. Won't happen though.


Don't bet the farm that it will not happen. As more people actually run the numbers and realize they will most likely never get to hunt I predict more people will simply give up and leave hunting all together (especially young people) or demand some kind of change.

Which, by the way, brings us full circle to the original topic of this thread which was changing the waiting period because the author is obviously frustrated with not being able to hunt.

How long do you think a sport that does not allow most people to participate in will survive?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

oldTimer said:


> Don't bet the farm that it will not happen. As more people actually run the numbers and realize they will most likely never get to hunt I predict more people will simply give up and leave hunting all together (especially young people) or demand some kind of change.
> 
> Which, by the way, brings us full circle to the original topic of this thread which was changing the waiting period because the author is obviously frustrated with not being able to hunt.
> 
> How long do you think a sport that does not allow most people to participate in will survive?


It has been going on like this since I started hunting in the mid 60's and will go on for a long time after I am gone.


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

Critter said:


> It has been going on like this since I started hunting in the mid 60's and will go on for a long time after I am gone.


My screen name is "old timer". I was also around in the 60's and believe me things are not going on the same as they once did. In the 60's you could buy a deer tag over the counter, hunt the entire state, hunt all three seasons, and shoot a doe or a buck. Now you have to put in to hunt one of 30 something units, can only hunt one season, and can only shoot a buck. In the 60's the majority of people over 16 hunted. Now, the last I head don't quote me on this, less than 5% of the residents hunt. The fact is hunting is a dying sport. That is why they are desperately trying to recruit young hunters. But just how do you recruit and retain young hunter when you tell them, at best, they can only hunt a good area every 2 or 5 years?

You may ask so what? Less hunters mean more opportunity for me. The problem is, as less and less people hunt, hunting will loose all political clout and so called "animal lovers" will have it outlawed. Don't believe me? Its already happening in CA. Closer to home, why do you think the LDS Church sold the Deseret Hunting rights? Hint - because they were catching hell from members from around the world that protested that a church should not be profiting from "blood sports".


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I was talking about the draws. Do you remember the 5 year wait after you drew a elk tag or should I say lucky enough to draw a elk tag? Deer were everywhere, you only had to take a drive up one of the canyons and you could shoot your deer and the Friday night before the hunt was a zoo of traffic going up the canyons and Sunday night was just as bad going the other direction. There were no mountain goats to hunt and you still had to be very lucky to draw a buffalo tag. 
Now there are a lot fewer deer hence the reason for the limited draws, you can hunt elk every year, either spike or any bull in limited areas. You want to hunt a trophy bull then it is a draw or start hunting with a bow and arrow. 

The problem is that there are only X amount of animals and Y amount of hunters with it being more hunters than animals. You want to open it up to the highest bidder. Well, that way you will still only be able to hunt every 10 to 20 years depending on the animal. It will take you that long to save up the money for the hunt to bid on it.


----------



## Kat3eWhit (Sep 6, 2013)

I believe under these regulations we would see a steady drop in how long it takes to draw a tag.


----------



## GBell (Sep 2, 2013)

Denny Austed hunts every year. 

This is the fallacy of "Free Markets" they work
Great as long as the masses subsidize it. IE
Public funding transportation so the free market
Can deliver their goods and services. Public
Funding for Law Enforcement and public subsidies
To keep public land open. And finally the bail outs when
Companies overextend taking on junk mortgages. 

With this type of management you'll see our inch management
Fiasco of tag allocations multiplied 10 fold. Can
You imagine the first auction winner that can't find
A bull bigger than 350? End of the world. 

Welcome to Texas hunting fella's!!


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

Again, I am surprised by the lack of support for a market driven permit drawing system. I would have bet that hunters/outdoorsman in a mostly Republican state like Utah would be conservative and want big government out of hunting. I guess most people feel that everyone has a right to hunt but are against Obama Care because the same people do not have a right to good health.

Also, I grow tired of hearing all the cheap people wine about not being able to hunt if the state sold tags for what they are worth. The last time I was up in the mountains most people I saw were driving around in a $40,000 - $50,000 trucks pulling a trailer filled with either horses or multiple ATVs.

Right now a deer tag cost less than a tank of gas. If hunters in this state are too cheap to pay their own way, can we at least raise the price to were people are not putting in for their wives, mothers, aunts, uncles, etc.? How much better would the odds of drawing a tag be if all the people who really could care less about hunting stopped putting in?


----------



## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

It's kinda getting old...oldTimer. We understand your point of view. If you want to pay for a tag there are plenty of ways to go about it. And, as if they were catering to you personally, the tags I speak of are market driven! CWMU's are given tags every year by the state for animals that happen to reside on their property during the hunting season. They charge fair market value for these tags, which are available for deer, elk, pronghorn, and yes, even Shiras Moose!

I agree that there's a problem with people putting in for relatives who don't even care about hunting. I believe that's the result of monetizing our bonus points - effectively turning them into currency that can be used to purchase expensive hunting permits. The only way I see to reduce or eliminate this would be to switch to a random lottery drawing with no points involved. That would have it's pros and cons obviously but I would not be opposed to it. 

And now that even I am joining the off-topic crowd I have something else to say: Combine the deer drawings for cryin out loud! It would take pressure off the general areas and make LE tags easier to draw. Do the same thing for elk, but since there's no general drawing it would be done differently: Any year you obtain a bull tag you are not allowed to retain a bonus point in the drawing! Instead of having 4 kinds of hunts with people waiting in line for all 4, make them pick just 2 and see the quality and availability of tags go up.


----------



## GBell (Sep 2, 2013)

Old.... For God's sake the North American Model 
was put in place to make sure that the system you 
Are talking about NEVER happens. The "Kings Deer" 
Didn't work in England and it won't work here. The
North American Model works because.... Wait for it OLD
Hunting is Socialist. WE own the Wildlife. 

Save your money and you can PEAY to hunt all you want. 
Take your TEA Party Feudalistic theory somewhere else.


----------



## elkman (Sep 1, 2013)

El Matador,
I am not sure I completely follow you. Are you saying either put if for LE deer or general season but not both or are you saying you can put in for both but if you draw a general season you cant get the bonus point for the limited entry? Either way I like where you are headed. Not sure how this would work for elk since we are still lucky enough to buy them over the counter and I am not sure I want that to change. I do really like the idea though!


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

oldTimer said:


> Again, I am surprised by the lack of support for a market driven permit drawing system. I would have bet that hunters/outdoorsman in a mostly Republican state like Utah would be conservative and want big government out of hunting. I guess most people feel that everyone has a right to hunt but are against Obama Care because the same people do not have a right to good health.
> 
> Also, I grow tired of hearing all the cheap people wine about not being able to hunt if the state sold tags for what they are worth. The last time I was up in the mountains most people I saw were driving around in a $40,000 - $50,000 trucks pulling a trailer filled with either horses or multiple ATVs.
> 
> Right now a deer tag cost less than a tank of gas. If hunters in this state are too cheap to pay their own way, can we at least raise the price to were people are not putting in for their wives, mothers, aunts, uncles, etc.? How much better would the odds of drawing a tag be if all the people who really could care less about hunting stopped putting in?


That right there is about enough to make me want to puke. You have more judgments there than I even care to address. You obviously think you know what is best for everybody. How about you focus on your own life and let others worry about themselves? You make me sick. You are a real piece of work.


----------



## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

elkman said:


> El Matador,
> I am not sure I completely follow you. Are you saying either put if for LE deer or general season but not both or are you saying you can put in for both but if you draw a general season you cant get the bonus point for the limited entry? Either way I like where you are headed. Not sure how this would work for elk since we are still lucky enough to buy them over the counter and I am not sure I want that to change. I do really like the idea though!


I'm sure there are several ways to go about it, but essentially all deer hunts are now LE. So instead of having 1 drawing for good LE tags and one for "general" LE tags, just put everything into the same pool. Under our bonus point system you would still have that slim chance of pulling a great tag as your 1st choice, and you could list a "general" area as 2nd, 3rd choice etc. Colorado does it this way. Bonus points only apply to your 1st choice. So you can build points trying for your favorite premium area while continuing to draw a 2nd or 3rd choice tag every year. People who don't care to hunt premium areas would have a better chance at drawing a regular tag by listing that as their 1st choice and using their points (if any) to draw it.

For elk you could still get a tag each year. Put in for your favorite LE unit, and if you didn't draw you could buy a tag over the counter. By doing so you would forfeit your bonus point for that year. I think you'd see many people sitting out the general hunt as a result, which would mean higher quality general hunting. It would also allow more young bulls to survive so more LE tags could be issued in the future.

Bottom line is, you choose which tag you want more and you're given preference for that tag.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Why not just go to the system that Colorado has in place? Do away with bonus points and install only preference points. Some units take years of accumulating points to draw and there are others that you can draw every year, your choice. If the unit requires a minimum of 10 points you have to have 10 points, no one with less will draw. Also one system of preference points. points for elk, deer, and antelope. If you want a cow tag and have 10 preference points and you draw that tag with your first choice your points drop back to 0, same with doe and buck deer. Draw with your first choice and your points drop back to 0. You don't draw your first choice you get a point. 

Only problem is the point creep, you have to have more and more points to draw that high point unit. The same as what is going on in Utah. I have looked at a couple of animals that I have been putting in for in Utah and have come to the conclusion that I'll be close to 80 by the time that I draw a bison or moose tag, so I am going to start to look elsewhere and heaven forbid have to pay a premium price to hunt them but then that is my choice.


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

El Matador said:


> It's kinda getting old...oldTimer. We understand your point of view. If you want to pay for a tag there are plenty of ways to go about it. And, as if they were catering to you personally, the tags I speak of are market driven! CWMU's are given tags every year by the state for animals that happen to reside on their property during the hunting season. They charge fair market value for these tags, which are available for deer, elk, pronghorn, and yes, even Shiras Moose!


I agree that this is getting old but I don't think you understand my point. This isn't about me being able to purchase a "canned" hunt on a CWMU or some distant northern land. This is about fair and equitable distribution of wildlife permits on public land in the State of Utah.

After rereading my post I realize I have come across as judgmental and harsh of my fellow outdoorsman and I apologize for that.

I do feel very strongly that the current system is essentially a combination of a pyramid scheme and lottery. People who got in early and have max points have a great chance of drawing out while youth just entering the system have no realistic chance of ever drawing out. I feel that selling our wildlife for less than what it is worth is dishonest and unfair to the people of Utah who own the wildlife and will ultimately lead to its demise.

A couple open questions for everyone on the forum. Please respond:

1. If the Managers of the State School Trust Land (which we all own) decided to distribute oil and gas leases for a small fraction of their worth to whoever won a lottery and then raise your taxes in order to cover the lost revenue would you honestly support this?

2. If the Managers of the state motor pool decide to sell excess vehicles (which we all own) to the winner of a lottery for a fraction of their worth and raise your taxes to cover the lost revenue would you honestly support this?

If your answer to either question is "no" then please explain why the vast majority of Utah residents who don't hunt should tolerate their wildlife being sold by lottery for a fraction of what it is worth?

So here is my point:

1. Pyramid Schemes are immoral (and I "think" illegal in Utah)

2. Lotteries are immoral and with the exception of wildlife tags are illegal in Utah

3. Under the current system new hunters and youth have virtually no chance of ever drawing a single OIL tag let alone multiple species in their lifetime

4. I'm guessing that since the cost of tags are so cheap that a large number (Id say as many as half) are going to wives, mothers, aunts, etc. that don't even really want to hunt

5. Selling the tags for less than their value robs the DWR of critical revenue that could be used to buy and improve wildlife habitat and provide more hunting opportunity. Without adequate funding our public lands and wildlife will suffer.

6. It is poor management and unfair to taxpayers to sell state owned property for less than what it is worth. It is not tolerated for any other state owned property and should not be tolerated for wildlife. Further, I "think" that if the vast majority of non-hunting residents knew what was going on the stuff would hit the fan

7. Yes, the cost of tags will go up; however, if all available tags are entered into a market driven system they will not go up nearly as high as the doom and gloom predictions

8. It has been pointed out numerous times on this forum that the overall problem is that tag demand exceeds supply. The only solution is to lower demand or increase supply. The most efficient method of regulating demand is cost. Other options such as mucking around with waiting periods will simply shift demand not lower it. It would be like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Okay......so there is small family farm in Utah. The family works its farm. They hunt to help feed the family. They fish for food. They hunt for food and they garden their own vegetables. They don't have much but they have carved out a life that they love. It takes a lot of hard work to get buy but they manage to make ends meet. They don't have fancy cars and trucks. They don't have a big fifth wheel. They have twenty year old camp trailer that does the job. They don't even have cable TV and rarely use the internet because it is just not part of their lifestyle and their computer is slow. The wife hunts with her husband every year. She may not be particularly fond of hunting but her husband loves the hunt and she loves to spend time with him.

Why should this family have any less of an opportunity to hunt every year than a family that has big bank account? They shouldn't.

Wildlife is owned by the citizens equally. Whether they choose to hunt it or not does not matter. Still equal ownership. Whether they want to hunt it or not does not matter. Still equal ownership. Whether one person has more money then another should not matter either. Still equal ownership. 

The family that has the small farm will always have a chance to draw a tag if they put in for the tag. We see it every year. People with zero points draw out. It has nothing to do with race, religion, sexual preference, whether they want it as bad as the next person. It doesn't matter whether they are wealthy lawyer or a person just scrapping by trying to make ends meet. It's a beautiful thing. Not everything in life should be sold for the highest dollar. Some things are more valuable than cash.


----------



## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

"I "think" that if the vast majority of non-hunting residents knew what was going on the stuff would hit the fan"

Personally I think if the vast majority of non-hunting residents paid a faction of what the hunting public paid they might have a leg to stand on.

"Yes, the cost of tags will go up; however, if all available tags are entered into a market driven system they will not go up nearly as high as the doom and gloom predictions "

I'd like to see some references of were in the USA that a true market value system is currently going for Wildlife hunting on public ground. 

I guess it is a good thing the those that homesteaded did not have to pay fair market value for a parcel.....


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Mr muleskinner made a great point!


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

oldTimer said:


> I agree that this is getting old but I don't think you understand my point. This isn't about me being able to purchase a "canned" hunt on a CWMU or some distant northern land. This is about fair and equitable distribution of wildlife permits on public land in the State of Utah.
> 
> After rereading my post I realize I have come across as judgmental and harsh of my fellow outdoorsman and I apologize for that.
> 
> ...


I'm sure most of us understand your point. I think you're frustrated just because we don't agree with it!

It's interesting that you bring up the Titanic to make your point. If your system were used there, those seats on the rescue boats would have been filled only by the highest bidders. In fact, maybe they were in a sense because, according to the movie at least, 1st class passengers faired better than those below.

Your system not only places monetary value on the animals and permits, but on the people who own them and would utilize them. When that happens, wealth/money becomes the ONLY consideration. You talk about lotteries and pyramid schemes being immoral, but your system goes beyond that.

Additionally, that disaster was caused by human error from the top and the passengers had no voice in the decision that caused it. I/we have a voice in this issue. You offer 2 solutions, but only focus on one and I, for one, much prefer the other.

Your solution is to reduce the demand by raising the price. That will certainly do the job, especially in Utah where, for the most part, hunting (and other activities) hold a lower place on the list of priorities below family, religion, education, charity, home ownership, self reliance and community service. In a nutshell you say let's get the less dedicated/part-time/occasional outdoorsmen out of the system by pricing permits beyond their priority budget. FWIW, I think that is already the case for many and I believe (and the DWR believes, per their youth hunts) that the demand will continue to drop on it's own.

I, on the other hand, would much prefer focusing on increasing the supply by increasing the resource. Not only will this help the current situation, but is the ONLY sensible long term solution.

It may be that the OIL species permits will always be an issue because there simply isn't enough habitat in Utah to hold the number of animals that would allow everyone who wants to to hunt them all, but there are things we can do to increase our chances of hunting at least one of them, ie; more research, habitat improvement, improved domestic sheep grazing regulations, more transplants and make them a true ONCE-in-a-lifetime per species hunt with no second tag, among other things. But the issues of mule deer, elk and pronghorn permits could much better be resolved and even eliminated by increasing the supply per most of the above actions. And that's where we, as passengers, can help prevent the pending disaster. We just have to put our minds, ears, mouths, hands and feet to the tasks. And there's plenty of opportunities for that. All you have to do is look and listen for them!


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

^^yup


----------



## oldTimer (Jul 12, 2013)

elkfromabove said:


> I'm sure most of us understand your point. I think you're frustrated just because we don't agree with it!


I admit that I am frustrated. Not so much because the recipients of a social welfare program do not want it eliminated, that is to be expected. Ask anyone on food stamps, etc. if the program they benefit from should be eliminated and I'll bet you can guess their reply. The reason I am frustrated is embedded in your comment below:

"That will certainly do the job, especially in Utah where, for the most part, hunting (and other activities) hold a lower place on the list of priorities below family, religion, education, charity, home ownership, self reliance and community service."

I have lived in Utah my entire life and if someone had told me that the majority of Utah outdoorsman would support a big government lottery (gambling) over a conservative small government approach I would have bet the farm they were crazy. I concede I was dead wrong.

I still believe that most people know in their heart that it is wrong. Note that not one person had answered my questions:

1. If the Managers of the State School Trust Land (which we all own) decided to distribute oil and gas leases for a small fraction of their worth to whoever won a lottery and then raise your taxes in order to cover the lost revenue would you honestly support this?

2. If the Managers of the state motor pool decide to sell excess vehicles (which we all own) to the winner of a lottery for a fraction of their worth and raise your taxes to cover the lost revenue would you honestly support this?

If your answer to either question is "no" then please explain why the vast majority of Utah residents who don't hunt should tolerate their wildlife being sold by lottery for a fraction of what it is worth?

I do feel that muleSkinner made some excellent points and was hoping we could promote some kind of system that would actually favor providing substance and family hunting permits. Maybe a compromise we can all live with would be to have all antlerless permits and general season permits be government price controlled but raise the price on LE and OIL permits to reduce demand. Further, to help families draws permit, perhaps we could make it so anyone applying for a LE or OIL tag could not apply for an antlerless or general season tag and vi sub versa.

Anyway, I know when I've been beat. I accept that I'm not going to get any support from the forum and will need to take my case elsewhere.


----------



## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

"If your answer to either question is "no" then please explain why the vast majority of Utah residents who don't hunt should tolerate their wildlife being sold by lottery for a fraction of what it is worth?
"

As a society we tolerate a lot of things that are not what you would call "fair market value". Our school system comes to mind. What about the UTA system? Even access to the Park system I'm thinking is not "Fair Market value" as you define it. The vast majority of your residents have no idea where those goats or turkeys they now see came from. So to indicate that they are some how being cheated is far from the truth and just plain wrong. The sportsman pay every bit of the taxes as the others and then pay extra to push forward the costs for land purchases and reintroduction programs. Since I am an equal owner of these excess animals, should I not be afforded an equal opportunity to use this excess?


----------

