# Does anyone even know a member of SFW?



## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I hunt/fish/shoot 60-70 days/yr.
I also have a fairly good sized group of family and friends that hunt and fish.
Myself and nobody I know even knows someone that belongs to SFW.
How many members does this group have on their books?
Do you know someone that is a member?
Just curious is all.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

It seems to be a prerequisite to obtaining a seat on the Wildlife Board? 🤷‍♂️


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

I know some OG members. I don’t know anyone who’s joined recently. Seems like it’s an invitation only club now.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I don't know of any, but I try not to associate and be on a name to name basis with criminals, crooks, you know the type.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I know a few. They are legitimately good guys who joined many years ago trying to make a difference. I've spoken to one of them extensively about the organization, and he recognizes the pitfalls and weaknesses associated with it, but also realizes that it is the game in town, and is trying to make a difference from the inside and not just sitting on the sideline complaining about it. While I'm not sure I fully agree with him, he had some valid points and he has done some really cool things over the years in association with the organization.

I think it would be misguided and really unfair to equate the rank and file with Don Peay.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I was a member and then wasn't. I know a few people who are still members (good men and women) and many who let their membership go. The current direction from the Org and from their leadership which I have seen over the past 2 years gives me some optimism. There will be many who will never trust them again. I will say that without Prop 5 in our back pocket we'd be in a precarious position similar to CO, OR, and other States which are starting to manage wildlife by public initiatives- love them or hate them, we should all agree that was a solid move to protect the future options of hunting.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

taxidermist said:


> I don't know of any, but I try not to associate and be on a name to name basis with criminals, crooks, you know the type.


Sounds like the City of White Oaks.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Packout said:


> I will say that without Prop 5 in our back pocket we'd be in a precarious position similar to CO, OR, and other States which are starting to manage wildlife by public initiatives- love them or hate them, we should all agree that was a solid move to protect the future options of hunting.


These initiatives look better by the year. 

Do you by chance know which groups initiated Amendment E, that passed the last election cycle?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It was the same representative that ran the trail cam bill that all hunters hate! 😂


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> It was the same representative that ran the trail cam bill that some hunters hate! 😂


Fixed it for ya...

...as for SFW, I do know some members, and I've ranted many times about my dislike of things they have done. But, I'd definitely be in the wrong if I didn't give them some props too. I can think of some very good things that they have done as well. Not too long ago, for example, they helped fund my Fishing in the Schools Program (a program very similar to NASP) and allowed me to teach fly fishing in some PE classes.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

I know one member who donates a lot of his own time and energy to their various causes. He seems to sincerely believe in their mission and that they're doing good things as an organization, and I have to give him props for the work he puts in.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

I know several and good people across the board. Actually time to join! I do respect many of their past and present initiatives; Prop 5, Schools Fishing, Pheasant Releases, Habitat Projects, Bounty on Yotes.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Has $FW ever opened their books (how ever many they keep) to the public or an Auditor for examination? Are they a "Non Profit Organization"? This I doubt highly.

I once sat on an NWTF comity, trapped and transplanted birds, put together the annual banquets, collected donations, gave items to the chapter for auction, etc., etc. The last banquet I attended, a few comity members wound up winning some expensive prizes from one of the raffles they were in charge of. Come to find out they had rigged it to win. There were other shady situations I saw and that was the last I ever had to do with the organization.

When the MD Foundation first began, I joined and gave them money, a large amount! I believed what they were about and could help make a difference. I did this for two years. I never heard a peep from them, received the calendar, or anything. I did hear from them when they wanted more money though. I told them where the bear chits and where they could go.

The only group I am a member of now, is the RMEF and the NWTF. They have proven to me that the money/donations is well spent. The only thing I know $FW has done, is manage to sell of 200 tags that should go to the people of Utah and the NR Applicants. They to can follow the Bear IMO.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

There are a good number of SFW members here in the southwest Wyoming part of Utah. Many are my friends, although I don't agree with their game management philosophies. They work hard, volunteering on many state and local projects. 

I'm not making this up, I have friends.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wyogoob said:


> I'm not making this up, I have friends.


Pics or it didn’t happen.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I have known several members very well, One that just left the board. I even helped with the first banquet they had in our area years ago. (Still have the hat)
They have all been good people and have done some good work. 
Like some other people, I don't agree with some of their goals and ideas. It seemed to me the ones I know are all about trophy management and not opportunity management. Sure, I enjoy taking a big animal like everyone else. But, I really just enjoy being out and about.


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## GCKid (Sep 11, 2007)

SFW has changed a lot in the past couple of years. They are really trying hard to get more money on the ground for habitat projects, pheasant & chukar releases and buying equipment for the DWR. I believe they also provided an audit to the State for the conservation expo which starts this week. See you all there.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

I am a member of SFW and have been right from the beginning nearly 30 years ago. I know what hunting in Utah was prior to their involvment and I have seen the HUGE improvements to quality as well as quantity since their involvment. I drink from their kool-ade cup and love the difference they have made. 

I only show that I have done a few posts on here and that is because I changed my name after many years of contributing to these threads. A GREAT number of my comments have been defending SFW from those that never knew the difference but now see lots of Elk and wish to partake in shooting them more often. I see both sides but one way depletes the numbers once again and one way teaches us to be patient and wait for a good one.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

I do not know anyone who is a member. I've often struggled to see what makes them different than the other conservation orgs I support. Which begs the question, is there a need for one major conservation org that has its hands in lots of things? Right now my dollars go to RMEF, BHA, MDF, Wild Sheep Foundation, Ruffed Grouse Society, Pheasants Forever, Ducks Unlimited, Western Bear Foundation and Utah Chukar and Wildlife Foundation. What if I was to combine all my member dues and pay that to an umbrella org? Or is that what SFW is supposed to be? I know TRCP kind of does this from a lobbying perspective. My gut tells me, however, that you still need species-specific orgs.

All this said, this forum has made me more than leery of SFW. The things I've read here are enough to make me never want to join that org. Yet, I still put in for the $5 application fee WHCE tags. 🤦‍♂️I just want a sheep tag.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

*I know what hunting in Utah was prior to their involvment and I have seen the HUGE improvements to quality as well as quantity since their involvment. *

I call BS on this remark!!! I know what it was like 30 years ago, because I was one of the folks hunting at that time. If you believe the herd numbers are larger, more mature animals, then the Kool-Aid they're giving you has warped you mind. I do have to give you the trophy for humor with that statement though.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

taxidermist said:


> *I know what hunting in Utah was prior to their involvment and I have seen the HUGE improvements to quality as well as quantity since their involvment. *
> 
> I call BS on this remark!!! I know what it was like 30 years ago, because I was one of the folks hunting at that time. If you believe the herd numbers are larger, more mature animals, then the Kool-Aid they're giving you has warped you mind. I do have to give you the trophy for humor with that statement though.


And BAM!!!! the haters come out of the woodwork.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I don't know anybody who is a member but then again I don't know anybody who is a member of any of the other "hunting" organizations either. That said I think they all have some programs worthy of support if that is your thing.
Do they do good things? I believe they do. However most have views I don't support as well as those I do.
Will I be upset if some of you morally corrupt individuals support SFW and apply for stolen tags that should go back into the public draws just so you can get an unfair advantage over others? No I won't. Enjoy the show. LOL

I guess I just lump them into the huge group of people/corporations who want you to give them money to make your life better. Choose wisely.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

middlefork said:


> I don't know anybody who is a member but then again I don't know anybody who is a member of any of the other "hunting" organizations either. That said I think they all have some programs worthy of support if that is your thing.
> Do they do good things? I believe they do. However most have views I don't support as well as those I do.
> Will I be upset if some of you morally corrupt individuals support SFW and apply for stolen tags that should go back into the public draws just so you can get an unfair advantage over others? No I won't. Enjoy the show. LOL
> 
> I guess I just lump them into the huge group of people/corporations who want you to give them money to make your life better. Choose wisely.


Perfectly stated!


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

2:22 said:


> And BAM!!!! the haters come out of the woodwork.


No hater. But please show numbers. You can look at any number of threads on here or other forums to see that NOBODY believes the deer herd (which was the impetus) has grown since they formed.
Have the declines slowed? Perhaps so.
And the reduction of hunters can't be argued at all. 
Pat yourself on the back if that is what it takes. And thanks for your efforts. But no, hunting is not better now than it was.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

Possibly all of the SFW haters should stay away from the Expo. Do not join the $5.00 tag opportunities. You might come accross as hypocrites if you bite the hand that feeds you. 

Here I go banging my head against the wall again but o-well. Where do some of you think the guzzlers came from that opened the areas that previously didn't hold wildlife to now host critters of all sorts? What about all of the fences that now keep wild sheep and domestic sheep apart so disease doesn't spread? What about the literal millions of dollars that were given to the DWR to do upgrades to habitat? What about the sheep heards that did NOT exist prior to the fund raising and purchase of sheep to then transplant into areas of Utah? ALL of this was brought to you by SFW. Keep crying about the "stolen" tags that should have been put into the regular draw and ONE more person per tag would have recieived a hunt instead of the hundreds of thousands of dollars that the same tag produced to continue to better the habitat, herds and well being of Utahs wildlife. Freedom isn't free and neither is Wildlife. Both take sacrifice. Dedicated hunter service has brought many work projects into the mix as it gave hunters more opportunity. Oh.....and again, brought to you by SFW. If you enjoy any of the things mentioned but don't support SFW, you are confused on who gave you the gifts that you now enjoy.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

SFW surely doesn't feed me. I don't drink the poison they offer up and have a mind that I use and say BAAAAAH BAAAAAAH with a bell on my neck. I stay away from the flock of sheep that will attend the expo. Don't forget to wear your tinfoil hat to prevent the Gama rays from burning anymore of your cerebral carcass.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

taxidermist said:


> SFW surely doesn't feed me. I don't drink the poison they offer up and have a mind that I use and say BAAAAAH BAAAAAAH with a bell on my neck. I stay away from the flock of sheep that will attend the expo. Don't forget to wear your tinfoil hat to prevent the Gama rays from burning anymore of your cerebral carcass.


Hilarious! You say "Poison" but don't have a reason why. You are no sheep, you have made that apparent. You obviiously don't like hunting sheep because SFW and UFNAWS are the reason we have Sheep but I have seen no bells on them. 
Are you a dedicated hunter or have you been one? If so, you are a hypocrite and I rest my case.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

Now lets get back to the real reason that I have really enjoyed what SFW has done for me. I am much more interested in drawing a quality tag Occasionally vs hunting every year with more opportunity but far less quality. I have just as much fun and oftern more due to lack of pressure, hunting with my friends and family having the tag. I LOVE it when the tag is mine but I also love it when my son, daughter, friend or sibling has the tag. For me it is much more fun hunting mature animals that act like mature animals with lifes experiences rooted deep within them than hunt spikes and rag bulls more often. I know that not everyone feels the same way that I do and that is OK. I hope that my oppinion is OK with them that I see things differently. I love hunting and it is in my soul. I am old now and remember a time when a score of a bull or buck was NEVER mentioned but only that someone got a 5 point and that was spectacular at the time even though the 5 point was a rag bull. It was the coolest thing ever if a friend killed an elk at all. Word spread fast with news like that and nobody dissed on the bull at all because any bull was so rare. If todays hunting has me bothered at all is that people aren't happy with anything less than a 380 bull. It's due to the internet and pictures of successful people with monster bulls so we believe that if someone draws a San Juan tag, they better not show thier face with anything less than a 400" bull. I do however enjoy chasing the chance of an absolute monster but am very content with a 330 bull. That is why "I" like SFW. They have made it possible to have many more chances at mature bulls screaming their heads off and that is the very thing that completes my elk season. It's not always killing the mature bull but at least chasing them.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

2:22, nice to see ya again.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I don’t think anyone can argue that SFW hasn’t helped elk hunting in Utah with a straight face. Even the any bull hunts are ten times better now than they were 30 years ago. 

Mule deer numbers have been declining across the western states for awhile now. Does SFW have anything to do with that? I don’t think so. Are they helping mule deer? Yes, I would say they definitely are and that will probably only get more challenging in the future with population growth, drought etc. Deer numbers will never return to what they were 30 years ago so it’s an unrealistic expectation to ever expect deer hunting to be as good as it was in the old days. Holding SFW responsible for that is even more unrealistic. 

Does SFW do everything right? No. Am I a member of SFW? No. And I do believe they engage in some shady dealings that doesn’t help a hunter like me. But I will be heading down to the expo to validate my app for the 10th year in a row now or something close to it. So, yes I support them as long as there is a very slim chance that there is something in it for me. 

I can’t say if I’ll ever be a full blown supporter. I’m more of a “they are a necessary evil” or “if you can’t beat em join em” guy I guess. 

As I watch board meeting and such my faith in them has certainly improved over the last several years so maybe one day I’ll be more of a supporter. 

And I definitely don’t look down on 22 for his membership and belief in them. He has his reasons and they have merit. I still recall a pm convo I had with the man many years ago on here and he helped me have an open mind about what they do when I really didn’t want to have an open mind. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Cool, thanks for your support. Really.

Your quality over quantity position is probably the biggest drawback to SFW there is to me. If there is no opportunity to hunt it will not be long before nobody cares to hunt. If nothing else I'm actually worried more about the anti hunters in these organizations than I am about the obvious targets.

SFW pretty much reduced big game hunters in Utah single handedly from more than 250,000 to less than 90,000.

Like I've said, good and bad. I don't have to agree to all. And yes I do DH and multi season elk tags. Not because I have to kill either. Just a good excuse to be out hunting. That being the main point HUNTING.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

Great to see you again Goob and 3 arabians. Been a long time. Good to see you all remember "Elk 22"


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

2:22 said:


> You might come accross as hypocrites if you bite the hand that feeds you.


This is my biggest gripe with the organization. You legitimately think you are the hand that feeds Utah hunting, when it’s actually the complete opposite. It’s public tags that feeds SFW. You should take your own advice. Troy seems to have caught that message. The tides are changing in Utah, and SFW has a place. Supreme Leader, like it was allowed to be for a while, is not it’s place.

Current leadership seems to have grasped that they have to tread lighter than before. Some of the underlings still think they are the bell of the ball and can do anything they want. Careful, don’t bite the hand that feeds you!


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

I'll just say that I really had a hard time understanding what my parents were talking about when they spoke of living through the Great Depressioin while my stomach was full. I got a small glimpse in 08 as I walked away from my business of 30 years. Their words took on an entire new meaning when I could see more clearly. That may be what needs to happen with wildlife in Utah for those to see in a different light.


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## TOgden (Sep 10, 2007)

This is an interesting thread. I can't help but chime in.
I talked with the founder of the group several years ago about the fact that the groups name was misleading. The group did not represent fishing, it was only about trophy big game. 

I know several folks that are or were members and there are a lot of good folks involved with the group. They have done some good things over the years to benefit wildlife but it's still about the big money trophy hunting that is so distasteful. I do think that the group has improved recently with better management of the organization.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

Good Comment Middle Fork


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

2:22 said:


> I'll just say that I really had a hard time understanding what my parents were talking about when they spoke of living through the Great Depressioin while my stomach was full. I got a small glimpse in 08 as I walked away from my business of 30 years. Their words took on an entire new meaning when I could see more clearly. That may be what needs to happen with wildlife in Utah for those to see in a different light.


Are you suggesting to cut the tags from SFW’s welfare system and put them back in the public draw? Because I think it would be FANTASTIC if we kept filling SFW’s stomach while the rest of the state struggles. You and I see eye to eye on that one!


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Are you suggesting to cut the tags from SFW’s welfare system and put them back in the public draw? Because I think it would be FANTASTIC if we kept filling SFW’s stomach while the rest of the state struggles. You and I see eye to eye on that one!


Hahahaha, you have an amazing imagination.  Those of you who want more tags even though it means less quality will never see eye to eye with me. I'm cool with that. I'm just giving a different point of view.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm not going to continue to beat up, make derogatory statements to those of you that are 100% into the Organization. I have my reasons for not wanting to support them, as I'm sure some are devote to the Organization. To each they're own. 

I would have a tiny bit more respect for the $FW if the EXPO tags offered were General Season tags and private land "trophy" tags. But $FW would have to purchase the PL "trophy" tags at the premium price to get them. Give the premium tags offered at the expo now, back to the people of Utah that are truly generating the funds for the wildlife. But what fun is a general tag to the "herd"? and how would they pay for a $5K "business dinner" while discussing with their buddy's how to rape the state for more, better and bigger tags? Sorry.....I didn't stay true to my words of not being mean. But hey, what the hell, that's what happens now days, I guess.

Enjoy the EXPO to those that attend. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I'll be fishing while the herd is being branded and tagged in the Palace pen.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

2:22 said:


> Hahahaha, you have an amazing imagination.  Those of you who want more tags even though it means less quality will never see eye to eye with me. I'm cool with that. I'm just giving a different point of view.


My post wasn’t about creating “more tags.” Just taking SFW off of state assisted welfare and returning the tags to the public draw where they belong. Then you’d know what it was like to go through the depression. You wouldn’t have that full stomach through it all, like you talked about in your analogy.

That said, I’d love to find a way to create more tags. But I also think people in this state should get to hunt, not just a select few. So yeah, you and I will NEVER see eye to eye on this. But be careful about biting the hand that feeds you…


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

2:22 said:


> Hahahaha, you have an amazing imagination.  Those of you who want more tags even though it means less quality will never see eye to eye with me. I'm cool with that. I'm just giving a different point of view.


I think the majority of hunters are opportunity hunters, not trophy hunters. That may make us not see eye to eye, but I would reckon more hunters are opposed to your point of view than in favor.


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## Moezer (Aug 27, 2021)

Newbie here & trying to follow along because I don't have the decades + experience in the matter.

Is this article (below) what is being referenced with how SFW has played in policy initially?
Wildlife News & SLC Tribune 2013 Don Peays & UT DWR


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

Utah offers the best of both worlds. They offer unlimited tags for several species if just getting out to hunt is what people really want. The problem is that the hunters in Utah that are all about "opportunity" are NOT just about opportunity. They want a shot at the big stuff but not deal with the sacrifice that it takes to get them here. "Opportunity" is ALL around us but they still complain. People have grown crops for century's. Every good farmer knows that you plant your corn then when it is harvested, you replenish the seed first so you have crops for next year and everything after that is the profits. It doesn't matter if you have an abundant year or a drought stricken year, the seeds are ALWAYS replaced FIRST. Utah DWR are smart people who understand that it takes a lot of money to replenish the seeds. Some of you act like these are idiots that we are dealing with and some big bully on the playground stole their lunch money. These are people with college degrees in Wildlife, Business, agriculture, and Biology. They are not dumb enough to be railroaded by a bully. Another smart person who invests in seeds first, approached them with some great ideas on building the herds and the same old problem of not enough money was the issue. They put their heads together and set up a plan to give the sportsman of Utah unlimited tags in some areas, (opportunity) lots of premium tags in the draw but if they took a few of the premium tags and auctioned them off for large amounts of money, they would be able to accomodate the projects that would further increase the herds, opportunities and quality of the wildlife without making the average Utah sportsman fund the projects. There are two tags on Antelope Island. That is a PARK. Many would say that there shouldn't be ANY hunting in the park. One tag is given away in a draw and the other is often bringing in $250,000 dollars that goes into the park and the wildlife there. What part of this don't you understand? How can some of you say that SFW is raping the sportsman? First of all, Rape is a HORRIBLE thing and should never be used lightly in a wildlife scenario and second of all, SMART people are creating ways to benefit the average Utah sportsman without it costing us an arm and a leg. The rich people are paying for us to have wildlife and if we allow our egos to get in the way, it will bother us that they are paying the lions share of the moneys to fund these project and feel that they are "Stealing" our tags. We have a renewable resource with wild things in wild places. This is simply truth, logic, common sense and a basic trust that the DWR has our best interest as well as the wildlifes best interest in mind. I have been on many projects funded by the rich and labored by the average as well as the rich to build fence, move Rocky mtn Sheep into a new area, and even dug out 4' feet of cow poop from an old barn that the DWR was going to use as a new facility in wildlife habitat storage. SFW has a place for everyone. They definitely try to attract money guys because that is who funds everything. They also have many people like you and me who are average Joes just trying to help where they can and there are plenty of projects to do. I'm just trying to make sure that our renewable resource isn't all about harvesting the corn then eating it all before setting aside the kernels needed to grow next years crop for my kids, their kids and many generations to come. Enjoy your "Opportunities" they are all around you.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Moezer said:


> Newbie here & trying to follow along because I don't have the decades + experience in the matter.
> 
> Is this article (below) what is being referenced with how SFW has played in policy initially?
> Wildlife News & SLC Tribune 2013 Don Peays & UT DWR


You need to go back to 1993 when they were founded and follow the story from there. There is no shortage of pro and con along the way. Much the same as has recently been posted. This is pretty much an annual thing about this time as the convention draws near.


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## Moezer (Aug 27, 2021)

middlefork said:


> You need to go back to 1993 when they were founded and follow the story from there. There is no shortage of pro and con along the way. Much the same as has recently been posted. This is pretty much an annual thing about this time as the convention draws near.


That's is quite funny as this thread landed in my inbox as I was thinking about going for the day tomorrow to check it all out. Gave food for thought at the very least.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Expo admission says you can join SFW or MDF for an extra 10. I refuse to go with SFW - is MDF any different?


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Expo admission says you can join SFW or MDF for an extra 10. I refuse to go with SFW - is MDF any different?


Do some research about the organization and where the donation dollars go, and to what States receive the greatest $$ of those donations. I commented on my experience with them in a previous remark. I wont comment about how I feel about them, as to try not to persuade your choice either way you decide to go. I am a member of only two organizations that have a proven track record of good they have done. Both of those organizations were created long before the two in question your referring to.

Take my comment as a grain of sand, I've only been playing the hunting game for over 40+ years. So that makes me a Rookie. 

Everyone needs something to believe in....I believe I'll have another Beer.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

My 2 cents worth is to quit listening to the nay sayers and give SFW a call to find out where a work project is that you could help with and possibly do it as your DH hours. It was in the field working side by side with great people that I came to realize the great work they are doing. If you give a work project a go and still don't think much of them then so be it but at least give them a fair shake instead of listening to a pile of derogetory crap with no substance to it. In anything, if you want to make a fair opinion, go to the source.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

2:22...I've been to the source, seen the good, and seen some bad. I'm still steamed SFW fought against stream access, for example (how is that a sportsmen for fish and wildlife ideal?). I also know that SFW is financially motivated--like you alluded to--to chase the dollars, which means appeasing guides, outfitters, and high-bidders among others. Which, in turn, often means fewer tags for the masses...which I don't like and never will.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

wyoming2utah said:


> 2:22...I've been to the source, seen the good, and seen some bad. I'm still steamed SFW fought against stream access, for example (how is that a sportsmen for fish and wildlife ideal?). I also know that SFW is financially motivated--like you alluded to--to chase the dollars, which means appeasing guides, outfitters, and high-bidders among others. Which, in turn, often means fewer tags for the masses...which I don't like and never will.


Wyoming2utah, Good to see you again. It's been years.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

I've known several SFW members over the years. Some are great guys. Others I haven't cared for too much. I have had a few conversations with Don Peay and find my positions are not often aligned with his. I've also had some good conversations with John Bair and walked away impressed. I felt like he knew what he was talking about and generally had the viewpoint the the average guy.

I also worked for nearly a decade with MDF. Started when Tony Abbott was running the show. I worked with Mike Laughter for a lot of years and he's one of the most genuine, hard working and down to earth guys I know. I can promise you he's not in it for the money. MDF has made a big commitment to becoming a legitimate charitable entity. Full transparency with their financials and operations. I haven't worked with them for about 4 or 5 years now, but I always stop in a say hi to Mike and the guys I worked with at the expo.


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## T-dubs-42 (Sep 8, 2015)

My problem with SFW in my limited experience with them is that they carved their own personal market into a public space under the guise they were helping the greater public (sound familiar?). It's a riff off of trickle-down economics and I'll admit in a lot of cases it does actually work better than trickle-down. However SFW has also set a really ugly precedent for anti-hunting interest groups to use in the future. For now hunters as a whole will continue to carry the lions share of the financial burden of wildlife management and as such will be given the largest say in management decisions. I feel strongly however, and we have mounting evidence that this is becoming the case, that non-consumptive interest groups are starting to gain serious footholds in the realm of wildlife. Eventually state and federal agencies will have to give these groups a real seat at the table because the hunting public simply doesn't provide the amount of funding required to truly manage these ecosystems and their wildlife to their full potential. These agencies will get called on this fact and will have little argument against it; in fact the existence of SFW as 2:22 pointed out is evidence of this. These groups have a rightful place too, as wildlife belongs to the entire public, not just the portion of the public that hunts. I believe that future collaboration between non-consumptive groups and hunting groups is possible/necessary and honestly welcome the change because it will lead to far healthier ecosystems as a whole. SFW has created a nasty stain and a clear argument point that sportsman are indeed not for wildlife, rather they are for creating exclusive and artificial environments geared toward pleasing the trophy hunter. With that on the record, the voice of hunters could very easily become watered down in the future. 

Even if you completely disagree with my idea that wildlife management is shifting and it will become more divided amongst diverse interest groups, you cannot honestly say without being hypocritical that SFW is truly a wildlife focused group. Yes, the amount of money and work they have poured into the state has benefited a myriad wildlife, including many non-game species. Even so, "quality" (cough cough trophy) opportunities are not a function of a healthy ecosystem and are not evidence that SFW is benefiting all wildlife and sportsmen, rather these quality opportunities are a function of meeting the specific needs of a specific species. The truest result of effective natural resource management is thriving populations of all wildlife species in the environments where they are actually meant to be.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

2:22 said:


> Utah DWR are smart people who understand that it takes a lot of money to replenish the seeds. Some of you act like these are idiots that we are dealing with and some big bully on the playground stole their lunch money. These are people with college degrees in Wildlife, Business, agriculture, and Biology. They are not dumb enough to be railroaded by a bully.


Interesting comment here, since on a few of the most controversial topics the DWR stood on the opposite side of the fence from SFW, yet the Wildlife Board ignored the DWR and went with SFW. So essentially, once again, we agree! I just don't think you know what you are actually saying. 

Like W2U, I originally soured on SFW in the stream access battles. I didn't know much about them before that, got to know what they were about and started paying much more attention to what was going on politically with the Wildlife Board, and I didn't like what I found. 

The good thing about all this is SFW has improved under Troy's leadership. I will absolutely give him and the organization some credit for that. The current leadership is infinitely better than anything in the past, they seem to get that the tide is changing and they can't just walk into a meeting with their ceremonial giant check and get whatever they want anymore, while giving the hunting public the middle finger. (Yes, I remember that, and am old enough to know how all this went down.) I'm really glad current leadership does not operate that way, and I think it will be a benefit to Utah in general because of that. The reality is there have been lots of promises made for all this money being given to SFW, yet the promises have not been delivered upon. You talk about planting seeds to grow more crops...explain to me exactly how SFW has helped increase Utah's deer herds the last 20 years. I'll hang up and listen.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

I am all for a healthy discussion without name calling and such so thanks all for the civility. I will also be the first to admit that the F is silent in SFW but that works for me because I am much more interested in the wildlife aspect. I also will admit amongst all the haters that I am much more of a Trophy hunter than not. Not everything has to be a giant or pig of a creature but respectable representation of the species is best for hunters as well as the wildlife in my opinion. Bull Elk don't even start acting like Bull Elk until they mature and then the rut is spectacular. I just really enjoy seeing creatures reach maturity and witnessing them in their environment like they were created to be.


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## TOgden (Sep 10, 2007)

2:22 said:


> I am all for a healthy discussion without name calling and such so thanks all for the civility. I will also be the first to admit that the F is silent in SFW but that works for me because I am much more interested in the wildlife aspect. I also will admit amongst all the haters that I am much more of a Trophy hunter than not. Not everything has to be a giant or pig of a creature but respectable representation of the species is best for hunters as well as the wildlife in my opinion. Bull Elk don't even start acting like Bull Elk until they mature and then the rut is spectacular. I just really enjoy seeing creatures reach maturity and witnessing them in their environment like they were created to be.


I'm glad to see you admit that fishing was just used in the title to attract anglers to join the group without providing any benefit to the angling community. Fishing doesn't generate any revenue for the group, it's just a drain on their funds when throw some money to a token project.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

If the 200 tags are never given back to the public like they should be, I would like to see them divided equally among all the Utah conservation groups and then see which group did the most good from the proceeds of the tags.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Back when I was helping the UWC, they were really grabbing a lot of members. But I haven’t seen any real efforts in years to grow their membership which is interesting when considering some of the things they are involved in.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

MrShane said:


> If the 200 tags are never given back to the public like they should be, I would like to see them divided equally among all the Utah conservation groups and then see which group did the most good from the proceeds of the tags.


Link and Attached Screenshot - https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/bg/conservation_permit_report_2020.pdf

DWR Tags Program 2001_2020 - Total Revenue / Total Tags and Revenue per Tag below.

UWSF $22,324 - Go sheep!
MDF $10,305
SCI $9,503
SFW $8,435
RMEF $7,778


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

2:22 said:


> Utah offers the best of both worlds. They offer unlimited tags for several species if just getting out to hunt is what people really want.


Can anyone name the unlimited big game tags we offer? 

Not being a smart alike. I do enjoy small game. I don't believe Utah is at all unique in that category though.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I can only think of two tags, both for only ONE specie: Archery Elk and a few random areas for Open Bull Elk.
I can’t think of any unlimited tags for anything else?
Edit: over the counter Buffalo tag.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2022/02/09/ajt-lgl22-utah-bill-aims-to-make-fundraising-for-wildlife-conservation-more-transparent-and-accountable/


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## TOgden (Sep 10, 2007)

ns450f said:


> https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2022/02/09/ajt-lgl22-utah-bill-aims-to-make-fundraising-for-wildlife-conservation-more-transparent-and-accountable/


Thanks for sharing that information. It sounds like the bill has a lot of support. 

That will be great news to actually be able to see where the money is going and to have better accountability of the various organizations.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Utah to receive $28.3M from record federal fish and wildlife conservation grants


Utah is about to receive a sizable amount of new funds toward fish and wildlife conservation.




www.ksl.com


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

MrShane said:


> I can only think of two tags, both for only ONE specie: Archery Elk and a few random areas for Open Bull Elk.
> I can’t think of any unlimited tags for anything else?
> Edit: over the counter Buffalo tag.


they have unlimited Turkey tags and unlimited Bear tags for fall on San Juan and LaSal.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

TOgden said:


> Thanks for sharing that information. It sounds like the bill has a lot of support.
> 
> That will be great news to actually be able to see where the money is going and to have better accountability of the various organizations.


Is this going to increase any accountability on the organizations? Or is it only creating accountability for the DWR’s cut?


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## TOgden (Sep 10, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Is this going to increase any accountability on the organizations? Or is it only creating accountability for the DWR’s cut?


It looks like it should do both.

I still want to see where the $300,000/year wolf money went.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

TOgden said:


> I still want to see where the $300,000/year wolf money went.


Uh, yeah, good luck with that, although to be fair, that was a deal with the legislature and not the DWR.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

TOgden said:


> I still want to see where the $300,000/year wolf money went.


Just give us the money. We can’t tell you what we spent it on because then everyone will know what we spent it on. Go ahead, trust us.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

2:22 said:


> they have unlimited Turkey tags and unlimited Bear tags for fall on San Juan and LaSal.


Oops,
I thought we were only talking big game here….this is the big game thread.


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## fobit (Mar 1, 2017)

Over the years (in the dedicated hunter program ) I have helped the DWR build 4 guzzlers. At three of them no one was involved but the DWR and dedicated hunters. One was run by MDF. 
I understood the Wasatch front heard my ram came out of was planted by Karl Malone not SFW.
Private money wanted the river access closed so you knew what SFW would do, even though the debate over Utah lake, that resulted in the meander line 100 years ago, had settled that the land under the water was part of the river.


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## DIRTYS6X6 (May 19, 2021)

Archery elk and youth any bull i think are the only two in utah


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## TOgden (Sep 10, 2007)

Catherder said:


> Uh, yeah, good luck with that, although to be fair, that was a deal with the legislature and not the DWR.


Your right it was the legislature that put some of our tax dollars to work.

They must have done a good job, haven't seen a wolf yet.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

MrShane said:


> Oops,
> I thought we were only talking big game here….this is the big game thread.


See post #58. Answer to your question of funds generated by conservation organizations from 2001-2020.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

I've known quite a few SFW members and leaders, especially in the Southern Region, and have been to many RAC and Wildlife Board meetings as well as to some projects (Parowan Front deer transplants, seed and bitterbrush planting, fish fin clipping, lop and scatter juniper and pinions and fish counts.) and expos, deer committee and training meetings where they were present. However, I've observed that in nearly all cases SFW promoted trophy hunting at the expense of opportunity hunting. If it wasn't reducing permits, it was raising the buck to doe ratios or antler restrictions or overcrowding or breaking up the units more to include more LE units or including a trophy hunt time or area in the general units or removing statewide archery or making ALL units LE units which they did with Option #2 or adding more EXPO and Conservation tags or keeping a big portion of the Expo application tag fees or extending the EXPO contract in such a way that it would eliminate anyone who would have a chance to take over the EXPO and give ALL the tag fees to the DWR. All in all, it seems like it's been a never-ending battle to try to KEEP the typical Utah big game hunter in the game. 

Call me a hater if you want, but know that I'm more than willing to help provide the 2:22 types with ample chances to enjoy the kind of hunts they prefer. But I'm not willing to allow them to reduce my chances to hunt the way I prefer or force me into their kind of hunt through some onerous unnecessary regulations and rules. 

And, FWIW, the VAST majority of DWR's income per any year's budget comes from the typical Utah hunters, not from the private wildlife organizations.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I may sound uneducated about these EXPO tags with the following question, so please take it easy with me. Does the Organizations purchase these 200 tags at face value from the state of Utah and then auction them off and place them in the draw at the expo. Or, does the state just "give" them to them?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

The answer to your question is no they do not pay for them.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Not only do they NOT pay for them, they get to keep $3.50 from every $5.00 application made for a tag. And all the money from entrance fees that people pay to walk around once they validate those applications. (which would be significantly less people if you took those tags away)

This is why I chuckle when some old school SFW honks stops by and lectures us about being careful about biting the hand that feeds it.

The government welfare teet is strong with this one!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> Call me a hater if you want, but know that I'm more than willing to help provide the 2:22 types with ample chances to enjoy the kind of hunts they prefer. But I'm not willing to allow them to reduce my chances to hunt the way I prefer or force me into their kind of hunt through some onerous unnecessary regulations and rules.
> 
> And, FWIW, the VAST majority of DWR's income per any year's budget comes from the typical Utah hunters, not from the private wildlife organizations.


There's the rub...SFW is financially motivated to keep tags low, trophy numbers as high as possible, and to push for more trophy opportunities by decreasing general opportunity. Let's face it, the higher the quality on Utah's public land hunts, the more money the auctions can generate. So, of course SFW will push to limit Utah hunters. But, the North American model of wildlife conservation has long said that market hunting is an enemy to conservation and especially to the rank and file hunters. I believe we are seeing this threat alive and well with the auction tags. Auction tags began as a means to primarily improve OIL species...but have grown over the year to include almost all hunting including turkeys. It's a sad progression in my opinion.

Utah attempts to manage its big game by allowing for general season units (high opportunity/low quality) and differing levels of limited entry units (lower opportunity/higher quality). What bugs me the most is when the SFW crowd pushes to increase quality on general season units under the guise of "improving the herd".


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Yep, and it all sucks because as long as there are tags to be drawn, I’ll play the game. So I guess I’m a bigger part of the problem here than the solution.

But I’d love to not have those tags any more and put them back in the public draw where they belong. See if SFW can survive without its stomach being full through the depression, you know?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I would never fault a guy for playing the cards he's dealt...so, applying for expo tags is what we have. The thing that sucks is that for guys like me, that opportunity does not exist. I cannot go to the expo and, therefore, those tags are not an option. I have been weeded out of that draw because of its location and timing. I cannot even play their game. So, not only do I lose out with those tags being taken from the public draw, but I also cannot even apply for the expo tags.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

*What bugs me the most is when the SFW crowd pushes to increase quality on general season units under the guise of "improving the herd".*

I'd have to say that "the herd" is the pocketbook of $FW from the sounds of things. With $FW keeping $3.50 for each application, they should have plenty of money to purchase the tags at face value. As far as I'm concerned, they kiss my ars and look for a bear in the woods and practice what the bear does. Maybe the majority of Utah hunters need to press the issue and have legislative pressure placed on them to BUY the tags they auction off and have for the draw.

Maybe a petition that mandates the tags to be purchased for auctions, expos, etc. Get the required number of signatures and have it placed on the ballot for the people of Utah to vote on? I'm tired of getting fleeced from big money groups stealing what belongs to the public!!


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

wyoming2utah said:


> Utah attempts to manage its big game by allowing for general season units (high opportunity/low quality) and differing levels of limited entry units (lower opportunity/higher quality). What bugs me the most is when the SFW crowd pushes to increase quality on general season units under the guise of "improving the herd".


Your first sentence is truth and strategy that has proven successful for decades.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

taxidermist said:


> I may sound uneducated about these EXPO tags with the following question, so please take it easy with me. Does the Organizations purchase these 200 tags at face value from the state of Utah and then auction them off and place them in the draw at the expo. Or, does the state just "give" them to them?


Actually, the permits themselves are still DWR permits that are pulled from the public pools and set aside for the EXPO and the Conservation programs and the winners of the auctions and EXPO draw still have to pay face value for them per a voucher. What we're talking about is who ends up with the voucher?

The 200 EXPO vouchers are given directly to the EXPO partners for their draw, but the auction vouchers are given to the wildlife organizations on a bid system that is basically based on the organizations' focused species and past auctions. SFW supposedly represents all species and has been auctioning off the vouchers for a long time and so they usually end up with most of them.

The EXPO vouchers don't have a set bid, but the Conservation vouchers end up with a set bid, but I don't know what happens, if anything, if the auction price doesn't meet the bid.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> Actually, the permits themselves are still DWR permits that are pulled from the public pools and set aside for the EXPO and the Conservation programs and the winners of the auctions and EXPO draw still have to pay face value for them per a voucher. What we're talking about is who ends up with the voucher?
> 
> The 200 EXPO vouchers are given directly to the EXPO partners for their draw, but the auction vouchers are given to the wildlife organizations on a bid system that is basically based on the organizations' focused species and past auctions. SFW supposedly represents all species and has been auctioning off the vouchers for a long time and so they usually end up with most of them.
> 
> The EXPO vouchers don't have a set bid, but the Conservation vouchers end up with a set bid, but I don't know what happens, if anything, if the auction price doesn't meet the bid.


I do understand that the "winner" of the EXPO tag pays face value for the tag. It just pisses me off that the DWR pulls these tags from the app pool, making the odds of drawing a tag even greater. Besides, I feel those 200 tags should be put back into the application pool. More than what, 90% of the tags offered at the EXPO are LE tags?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

taxidermist said:


> I do understand that the "winner" of the EXPO tag pays face value for the tag. It just pisses me off that the DWR pulls these tags from the app pool, making the odds of drawing a tag even greater. Besides, I feel those 200 tags should be put back into the application pool. More than what, 90% of the tags offered at the EXPO are LE tags?


Their view of the EXPO draw is that it IS a public draw and ANYONE who's eligible can apply! They argue that the fact that those vouchers go to private vendors who charge a $5.00 application fee and who keep 70% of that fee AND who require you to validate your application in person, is just ANOTHER way for the public to receive a tag.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)




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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I guess the next big change in the DWR should be having to "validate in person" your app for the draws that cost $10 to apply for.  $FW makes you validate in person so they can lure you into the arena to spend more money. This also gets the vendors to come to the show to book hunts, etc. and sell their goods. I don't have an issue with the vendors doing their thing, its the tags that are taken away from those that cant or wont attend the show.

If $FW wants the 200 permits for the show, give it to them, but, 100% of the app fees go back to the state. If that happened, I bet $FW wouldn't be bidders for the show next time it comes up for bid.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> If $FW wants the 200 permits for the show, give it to them, but, 100% of the app fees go back to the state. If that happened, I bet $FW wouldn't be bidders for the show next time it comes up for bid.


Coincidentally, this was RMEF’s exact proposal. 100% of those app fees returned to the state for wildlife projects.

And the in-person validation requirement is in the contract. I believe it’s the state that requires that. Last year the state suspended the requirement for one year only.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Contract on Expo permits for 10 years


There is talk about SFW/MDF getting a 10 year lock on the Expo permits. Mcfly and Skinner should love that idea.......:p......




www.utahwildlife.net


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> Coincidentally, this was RMEF’s exact proposal. 100% of those app fees returned to the state for wildlife projects.
> 
> And the in-person validation requirement is in the contract. I believe it’s the state that requires that. Last year the state suspended the requirement for one year only.


RMEF demonstrates weak ability to generate $$$ with their allotted conservation tags. Member since 89. Support their mission; but funding raising they lag!


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

This insanity needs to end.
The 200 tags need to go back to the public.
Groups can have as many expos they want, just not supplemented with our tags.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

OriginalOscar said:


> RMEF demonstrates weak ability to generate $$$ with their allotted conservation tags. Member since 89. Support their mission; but funding raising they lag!


How did you figure this? Are you only looking at the total number generated? Not really fair to compare 122 tags vs 40 tags on a base total, right? When done on a price per tag it’s fairly close with SFW last year. It’s still not an apples to apples comparison, as it will depend on what tags who got. A Manti elk tag isn’t bringing in what a San Juan elk tag would. And a Book Cliffs deer tag won’t draw what a sheep tag does. On top of all this, I wasn’t talking about conservation tags at all! I was talking about the 200 expo tags and how SFW gives back $1.50 per application and RMEF proposed giving back all $5.00 of it. And there is ZERO doubt RMEF would have increased applications for this too. The hunt expo puffs it’s chest out over 40,000 attendees. RMEF expo they were bringing if they got this contract draws 100k. 

Mr Shane is correct. There is nothing wrong with organizations holding expos, conferences, banquets, etc. Just quit robbing the public to pay Peay.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> How did you figure this? Are you only looking at the total number generated? Not really fair to compare 122 tags vs 40 tags on a base total, right? When done on a price per tag it’s fairly close with SFW last year. It’s still not an apples to apples comparison, as it will depend on what tags who got. A Manti elk tag isn’t bringing in what a San Juan elk tag would. And a Book Cliffs deer tag won’t draw what a sheep tag does. On top of all this, I wasn’t talking about conservation tags at all! I was talking about the 200 expo tags and how SFW gives back $1.50 per application and RMEF proposed giving back all $5.00 of it. And there is ZERO doubt RMEF would have increased applications for this too. The hunt expo puffs it’s chest out over 40,000 attendees. RMEF expo they were bringing if they got this contract draws 100k.
> 
> Mr Shane is correct. There is nothing wrong with organizations holding expos, conferences, banquets, etc. Just quit robbing the public to pay Peay.


I used math, Link and Attached Screenshot - https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/bg/conservation_permit_report_2020.pdf

DWR Tags Program 2001_2020 - Total Revenue / Total Tags and Revenue per Tag below.

UWSF $22,324 - Go sheep!
MDF $10,305
SCI $9,503
SFW $8,435
RMEF $7,778


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

OriginalOscar said:


> I used math, Link and Attached Screenshot - https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/bg/conservation_permit_report_2020.pdf
> 
> DWR Tags Program 2001_2020 - Total Revenue / Total Tags and Revenue per Tag below.
> 
> ...


And that really is not a substantial difference. Especially considering that some organizations get much higher valued tags to auction. In addition to math, I suggest using some logic and reasoning as well. Particularly since this has NOTHING to do with the 200 expo tags, which is what was being discussed. Carry on.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Right, it is very hard to say that SFW is getting more bang from the buck in these auction tags when they have more valuable tags to auction. It's the same reason UWSF is getting the most out of their auction tags.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I like math and excel . . . when a person compares SFW and RMEF on a yearly basis, and looks at the average revenue per tag generated by each organization, it seems RMEF and SFW have split the "contest" of average sales price of tags over the past 20 years.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

CPAjeff said:


> I like math and excel . . . when a person compares SFW and RMEF on a yearly basis, and looks at the average revenue per tag generated by each organization, it seems RMEF and SFW have split the "contest" of average sales price of tags over the past 20 years.
> 
> 
> View attachment 151210


Everybody back TF up and let the accountant in! 

Love this Jeff. The reality is the expo is a bit of a cheat with these tags. No matter who runs this event - it could be Billy Bob's Group for Better Hunting Opportunity - they would make a lot. I still believe that RMEF would put on a better expo which would take it another level while also giving the state back 100%. 

I won't be entering the expo anymore. It's the same crap as the last 5 years and companies don't offer any better deals than you get online. Drive to SLC, scan my application code, leave, stop at Cabelas on the way home. Rinse, repeat.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> I like math and excel . . . when a person compares SFW and RMEF on a yearly basis, and looks at the average revenue per tag generated by each organization, it seems RMEF and SFW have split the "contest" of average sales price of tags over the past 20 years.
> 
> 
> View attachment 151210


Math....it's science.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I like math too, just not as much as Jeff.
Well done CPA!


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

RandomElk16 said:


> Everybody back TF up and let the accountant in!
> 
> Love this Jeff. The reality is the expo is a bit of a cheat with these tags. No matter who runs this event - it could be Billy Bob's Group for Better Hunting Opportunity - they would make a lot. I still believe that RMEF would put on a better expo which would take it another level while also giving the state back 100%.
> 
> I won't be entering the expo anymore. It's the same crap as the last 5 years and companies don't offer any better deals than you get online. Drive to SLC, scan my application code, leave, stop at Cabelas on the way home. Rinse, repeat.


This is right. I spent 2 full days in there (volunteering for RMEF) and all the vendors I spoke to did not have show discounts or anything that enticed me.

Vortex..."any show specials?" "No but if you buy right now from the Sportsmans Warehouse rep they will give you $15 of in store credit for every $100 spent".

I guess that beats the $10/100 the Leupold guys were offering but still. I try not to spend ANY money at SW so in store credit is all but useless to me.

Just take the 15% off the price of the optic and I'll consider it.

Sent from my SM-N976U using Tapatalk


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

KineKilla said:


> This is right. I spent 2 full days in there (volunteering for RMEF) and all the vendors I spoke to did not have show discounts or anything that enticed me.
> 
> Vortex..."any show specials?" "No but if you buy right now from the Sportsmans Warehouse rep they will give you $15 of in store credit for every $100 spent".
> 
> ...


It's very disappointing. I know exactly what optics I like and starting 3-4 years ago they threw expo deals out the window. Most of the participants there have settled in and are complacent. They just renew their booth and nothing new comes in. When they extended the hall and maxed out booths, it felt like competition went down. I suppose that isn't the point of these shows but a lot of the new companies - or small ones that actually care about sportsmen still - can't secure a booth and even if they could, can't afford it. 

Don't get me started with outfitters (most the booths). I guess a fishing trip to Alaska sells itself but these people just don't give a s***. Not kind unless you whip out the measuring stick of a wallet. The price influxes in hunting are showing demand > supply and that's hurt us. Luckily the division allows groups like SFW to take advantage of that and gives them tags. 

Better stop this train that I have running off the tracks. Our favorite industry sucks lol.


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## flyfisher20 (Aug 5, 2011)

RandomElk16 said:


> Everybody back TF up and let the accountant in!
> 
> Love this Jeff. The reality is the expo is a bit of a cheat with these tags. No matter who runs this event - it could be Billy Bob's Group for Better Hunting Opportunity - they would make a lot. I still believe that RMEF would put on a better expo which would take it another level while also giving the state back 100%.
> 
> I won't be entering the expo anymore. It's the same crap as the last 5 years and companies don't offer any better deals than you get online. Drive to SLC, scan my application code, leave, stop at Cabelas on the way home. Rinse, repeat.


Not a bad plan, but I'd rather go to Scheels than Cabela's 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I'd take Billy Bobs Sporting Group over $FW anytime! The "battle" between the RMEF & SFW and who would put on a better EXPO unfortunately will never come to be. SFW has it wrapped up in the long term contract, If the DWR did make changes to the tags, (100% of app fees returned to the state) I bet you'd see SFW bailing out of the contract and hightail for better hunting grounds. Those hunting grounds IMO are the supporters of the Cult, and the folks that enter the EXPO. That alone shows support.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

CPAjeff said:


> I like math and excel . . . when a person compares SFW and RMEF on a yearly basis, and looks at the average revenue per tag generated by each organization, it seems RMEF and SFW have split the "contest" of average sales price of tags over the past 20 years.
> 
> 
> View attachment 151210


Now add MDF they average 23% higher than SFW and 32% higher than RMEF. Hunt Expo model is MDF-SFW collaboratively. Oh and the Sheep people also at Hunt Expo. Trifecta! 

RMEF underwhelms at fundraising and have not exhibited ideas or interest to improve. Example, the 1st RMEF Mountain Festival with Total Archery attracted decent number of visitors, many affluent thrilled to be in Utah. When I asked the Utah Chair about donating tags to support RMEF national, the answer was nope those are state fundraiser. Ditto national RMEF gun calendar has to compete with local chapter calendar.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

OriginalOscar said:


> Now add MDF they average 23% higher than SFW and 32% higher than RMEF. Hunt Expo model is MDF-SFW collaboratively. Oh and the Sheep people also at Hunt Expo. Trifecta!
> 
> RMEF underwhelms at fundraising and have not exhibited ideas or interest to improve. Example, the 1st RMEF Mountain Festival with Total Archery attracted decent number of visitors, many affluent thrilled to be in Utah. When I asked the Utah Chair about donating tags to support RMEF national, the answer was nope those are state fundraiser. Ditto national RMEF gun calendar has to compete with local chapter calendar.


And what does any of this have to do with the 200 expo tags?


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> And what does any of this have to do with the 200 expo tags?


Nothing 😂


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

TPrawitt91 said:


> Nothing 😂


And, if 100% of the application fees went back to the DWR, the fundraising would increase...but, RMEF didn't get the bid. So, we are stuck with what only 30%?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Yep, $1.50 of the $5.00 gets reserved for dedicated wildlife projects. This is a fairly recent change. SFW used to keep the full $5.00 with no accounting at all until the bad publicity forced this to change to even what it is now.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

For almost a decade now I have personally boycotted this expo by not dropping a single penny or exerting a single footstep in their direction.
I have encouraged a few to join me.
I have always wanted to have some boycott signs made and get others to show up with me at the show but I don’t want any anti’s getting a hold of this ‘scheme’ and using it against Utah hunters in general.
I just want the 200 public tags given back to the people that own them.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Didn't someone on here a couple of years ago do some math and figured out that even if those 200 tags were put back into the normal draw that your odds would only increase something like 1/10th of 1 percent for most of the tags?


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Critter said:


> Didn't someone on here a couple of years ago do some math and figured out that even if those 200 tags were put back into the normal draw that your odds would only increase something like 1/10th of 1 percent for most of the tags?


Some quick math in my head has revealed similar odds increases.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

A few years ago I pulled all the expo tags and conservation tags and put them into groups by species. The OIL pools were not impacted too much, but when the tag allotments are that small, every tag counts. Deer and elk were where we would see some help with that oft spoken subject of "point creep." 

There are nearly 200 elk tags given out to the expo and conservation organizations for auction each year. 200 more people out of the elk pool every single year makes a difference. After 5 years you're talking about 1,000 less people in the elk pool ever single year due to waiting periods. Deer was not quite as many, but still substantial. Yes, odds still stay poor. There is absolutely no way you will ever make draw odds good for our LE species. (Full random draw won't make your odds any better) But when talking about how to get more people out of the pools more quickly, it seems putting those ~200 elk tags back into the public draw where they take people out of the pool and put them on a 5 year waiting period would help. 

It won't solve the issue, but after 5 years and all the people out of the pool, I see no single other change that will help process more hunters than this.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Critter said:


> Didn't someone on here a couple of years ago do some math and figured out that even if those 200 tags were put back into the normal draw that your odds would only increase something like 1/10th of 1 percent for most of the tags?


Sweet, I’ll take it!!!
Who wants to help make the signs?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> A few years ago I pulled all the expo tags and conservation tags and put them into groups by species. The OIL pools were not impacted too much, but when the tag allotments are that small, every tag counts. Deer and elk were where we would see some help with that oft spoken subject of "point creep."
> 
> There are nearly 200 elk tags given out to the expo and conservation organizations for auction each year. 200 more people out of the elk pool every single year makes a difference. After 5 years you're talking about 1,000 less people in the elk pool ever single year due to waiting periods. Deer was not quite as many, but still substantial. Yes, odds still stay poor. There is absolutely no way you will ever make draw odds good for our LE species. (Full random draw won't make your odds any better) But when talking about how to get more people out of the pools more quickly, it seems putting those ~200 elk tags back into the public draw where they take people out of the pool and put them on a 5 year waiting period would help.
> 
> It won't solve the issue, but after 5 years and all the people out of the pool, I see no single other change that will help process more hunters than this.


If that were the case, we would not only slow down the point creep by putting those tags back into the regular draw, but the DWR would get to keep about $6.99 from every $10.00 application which is almost 4.7 times what they get from those applications now!


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> A few years ago I pulled all the expo tags and conservation tags and put them into groups by species. The OIL pools were not impacted too much, but when the tag allotments are that small, every tag counts. Deer and elk were where we would see some help with that oft spoken subject of "point creep."
> 
> There are nearly 200 elk tags given out to the expo and conservation organizations for auction each year. 200 more people out of the elk pool every single year makes a difference. After 5 years you're talking about 1,000 less people in the elk pool ever single year due to waiting periods. Deer was not quite as many, but still substantial. Yes, odds still stay poor. There is absolutely no way you will ever make draw odds good for our LE species. (Full random draw won't make your odds any better) But when talking about how to get more people out of the pools more quickly, it seems putting those ~200 elk tags back into the public draw where they take people out of the pool and put them on a 5 year waiting period would help.
> 
> It won't solve the issue, but after 5 years and all the people out of the pool, I see no single other change that will help process more hunters than this.


If issue is tag creep then solutions are; charge more, hit CC full amount and hold for 3 months, eliminate tag turn back. 

Since HuntExpo started in 2007 our opportunities in Utah have increased substantially. From 2007 to 2020 the number of Antelope (bucks) + OIL harvested increased 429 animals (link and table). Think about that; population growth, habitat developed, chronic drought, poaching and Utah still expanded harvest and hunting opportunities. 

I'm confident someone will take time to tabulate deer, elk and tell me I'm full of [email protected]$&. Deer so fickle it's up or down and DWR has to balance opportunity with buck/does ratios to keep herds viable. Elk the spike/GS units work and LE debate is kill em at 3-5 years or 6-8 years. 

HuntExpo isn't only factor expanding hunting and harvest opportunities, but it does recognize, celebrate, and provide platform for all those who want to participate, to have dialogue about Hunting and Conservation. Utah is doing well! 


https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/annual_reports/big_game/20_bg_report.pdf




Species/Sex2007​2020​% ChangeAntelope / Buck813​1085​33%​Bison / All 121​225​86%​Desert Bighorn / Ram40​81​103%​RM Bighorn / Ram22​77​350%​RM Goat / All91​117​29%​Moose / Bull236​167​-29%​Total 1323​1752​


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