# whats a better deer hunt? LE or cwmu



## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Hey guys I would love as much feedback on this as possible. I have a few points racked up for a deer draw. In general what is a better hunt between le and cwmu? The tough thing about it is that there are so many cwmus and in general u can't scout them because they are private.

I'm just curious for opinions by those who have drawn either tag what their experience has been. For those who still haven't drawn what are your thoughts as well.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

I've never drawn, but I have 9 points and have done some research on this. I think it comes down to how much time you want to invest in your hunt and what kind of buck you're looking for. 

CWMUs, if you do some homework and choose a good one, will give you a good chance at a respectable buck without spending a lot of time scouting. Many of them don't even allow scouting. So if you're looking for a 22" 4 point in 3 days of hunting, they are a good option. Some of the better CWMUs have huge deer on them but there's quite a bit of doubt in my mind that public hunters would have a fair chance at them. In many cases the operators will steer public hunters away from the best bucks. Because of all this the trophy hunting crowd is hesitant to burn points on a hunt that is largely dependent on luck and other people. The plus side to that is there are a bunch of CWMUs that are pretty easy to draw.

LE hunts allow you to scout all you want and allow you to hunt more days too. The only major downside to LE hunts is that they're hard to draw for the quality of hunt you get. Even units that aren't that great will take you 8-10 points for a bonus tag. And the good ones are 12-15+. If you just want a regular 4 point the Book Cliffs is a good unit that can be drawn with about 8.

There really is no "best" choice. You either have to take a risk on a CWMU or wait forever for a LE tag.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

In my humble opinion *CWMU should be shut down!* The intended purpose for PHU's now CWMU was to allow a private place for wildlife to winter and prosper thus allowing a surplus of game to spill over on to public land and allow private property owners a way to capitalize on their cooperation with a state agency. Again in my opinion Utah hunters have too many National Parks and CWMUs are just one more excuse for limiting public hunting opportunities and miss use of public property and state owned wildlife. Look at how fast and by whom all of our state schools trust lands have been gobbled up? Try hunting Range Creek and see how 800, 000 bucks of sportsman's money was put into to allow sportsman the opportunity to hunt millions of acres of public land, land-locked by a few property owners, only to have the place put in to a restrictive state park and an open play ground for the rich and famous to snub their noses at John Q public while buying up school trust lands for pennies on the dollar and having the government and Sportsman's groups bow at their feet. No thanks! I think that CWMU need to have their wings clipped just like the rest of us have to pay the price&#8230;.
Big


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

All things being equal I would rather be able to choose my own style, time and location to hunt rather than have someone else determine it. That being said I think that most of the better CWMU's for deer that treat the public hunters right are the ones that are more difficult to draw.

big don't hold back tell us how you really feel


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

middlefork said:


> big don't hold back tell us how you really feel


Yes, middlefork, you are right I got carried away again!

There are some great CMWU operators out there that have given far more than they have or will ever take, like the Jensen family who have put more into conservation than people will ever know. Shane Ford is another ethical operator who bends over backwards to give a guy (public hunter) a quality experience. I guess that I have just seen more CWMU operations that have every intention to win at all cost to the public. Improperly marked unit boundaries, public road closures, chasing hunters and game off public land, Over grazing on public land boundaries etc.. The brunt of my post should read, "CWMU operations need to share in the lost opportunity to hunt mule deer."

Pack Out, Will you ever forgive me?........Big


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## Blanding_Boy (Nov 21, 2007)

Interesting how this got to be another bash CWMU post.

To answer your question it comes down to research, how much time you can spend, and what you are comfortable with. I know many guys love them and others don't. I think if you did some research besides here and monster muleys you might find some different opinions. Guys that really know what they are like don't tell others--its their little secret.

Now to set the record. All CWMUs have to allow a public hunter a minimum of 5 days to hunt bucks and bulls. All dates that the public are allowed to hunt are listed on the UDWRs web page.

Big--please tell me where you got this... "The intended purpose for PHU’s now CWMU was to allow a private place for wildlife to winter and prosper thus allowing a surplus of game to spill over on to public land and allow private property owners a way to capitalize on their cooperation with a state agency." 

That is simply not the case. Many CWMUs are not even on winter range. If you are going to state something like this please get your facts straight.

CWMUs continue to take a beating and will I guess as long as folks continue to read half truths and are miss lead about what they really are and what purpose they really serve. 

Truth is overall CWMUs have a higher hunter satisfaction index than the LE units.

Truth is, many guys have great experiences. Truth is many of the biggest animals that are killed every year on CWMUs are taken by public hunters. Just because one has a bad experience or knows someone that has doesn't mean the program is bad or should be shut down if this were the case the San Juan elk hunt would be shut down this year and many other of our best elk units because guys had bad experiences. 

So please, lets get the fact straight for once. I'm tired of hearsay I know there are those who personally have had bad experiences but for everyone of those guys I have 5 more emails to the contrary.

Truth is any CWMU is better than 40 acre cabin lots across the 10 thousand acres--right ? Would you rather see every bit of private land developed or deer and elk on private lands.

Todd


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## HunterGeek (Sep 13, 2007)

bigbr said:


> In my humble opinion *CWMU should be shut down!*...
> 
> Again in my opinion Utah hunters have too many National Parks and CWMUs are just one more excuse for limiting public hunting opportunities and miss use of public property and state owned wildlife.


Not meaning to challenge you bigbr, only to clarify. Your posts have caught my attention, and I'm just wondering how you've come to your conclusions on a few things.

For example, how would shutting down CWMUs enhance hunting opportunities? Without the CWMUs most of the private lands encompassed by the CWMUs would be the exclusive hunting domains of the property owners and and their invited guests. The CWMUs provide limited public access to those properties. Much of the same could be said of the Walk-In Access properties, but I don't recall you expressing an opinion on them.

Now I'm not arguing that all CWMUs are created equal - many aren't. I'm wondering, instead, how the program, as a whole, limits instead of enhances hunting opportunities. Honest question.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Blanding_Boy said:


> Interesting how this got to be another bash CWMU post.
> 
> To answer your question it comes down to research, how much time you can spend, and what you are comfortable with. I know many guys love them and others don't. I think if you did some research besides here and monster muleys you might find some different opinions. Guys that really know what they are like don't tell others--its their little secret.
> 
> ...


Again, although in my first post I was rather harsh to judgment and opinion, I do believe that CWMU operations need to share in the repercussions of any wildlife decisions that limit or reduce opportunities to the general public of permits (limited or otherwise.)
Big


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## birdslayer (Feb 1, 2009)

here is something to ask all the pro CWMU indivuduals out there. A moose is once in a life time hunt for the sportsmen like my self, but a CWMU land owner gets at least one tag every year? (providing at least one tag goes to the public). CWMU owners are an exception to the rule? Little Red Creek has how many thousands of acres, and yet they run thier cattle on public ground so that the elk have a great place to to get away from cattle, and yes that is a fact. unless you are a relative of the CWMU opperator i would stick with LE


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## COOPERD (Sep 16, 2007)

Bird Slayer I agree with your post, unless you know someone on a cwmu, the public hunter is just a hunter that you need to get out of the way. Cwmu's are great in alot of aspects, but I still dont like that they can encompass public land and use it as theirs. I know there is alot of "Truths" out there.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

IMHO I believe the beauty in hunting a CWMU or an LE unit is in the eye of the beholder. I tagged along on a CWMU hunt once and the property owner picked us up at the gates and drove us to a particular canyon and told us not to leave it. Along the way we passed up several deer and he wouldn't even allow us to stop and look at them. He told us he'd be back at an hour before dark to pick us up and take us back to the gates.

I'm sure not all CWMU's aren't like that but be sure to contact the porperty manager prior to putting them on your application. In contacting them you may find a property that is ran in a way that is condusive to the way you wish to hunt and they may share with you what type of animals are roaming around the property. Remember their contact info is in the guidebook. Be sure to contact them prior to applying.

For me an LE unit is much more appealing but harder to draw generally.

On another note I consider myself a man of principle but I could really care less what the intention was behind creating the CWMU (PHU) program. All I care about is what does the program accomplish? To me it gives the public opportunities to hunt private grounds and there is nothing bad about that.


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## Blanding_Boy (Nov 21, 2007)

Big--

No forgiveness needed, everyone is entitled to their opinion just state it as that not the gospel.

Sorry Garth was not the 'author' or one who started the program. While he was likely involved because of depredation issues in the area he was with the UDWR at the time it was much bigger than Garth and involved many more people with the UDWR, landowners, USU Extension and the public. It was started as a pilot program in 1990 modeled after Colorado's Ranching for Wildlife Program, when the Utah Board enacted a 3 year experimental PHU. Under this agreement the landowner COULD receive monetary incentives to continue to include big game in their farm and ranch management plans. In 1993, things were modified and actual legislation was passed to make it an official program.

Truth is overall CWMUs have a higher hunter satisfaction index than the LE units. Glad to read this, however I feel that you have the burden of proof to advertize amongst your peers, both the success and the failures, as you derive profits from a state owned resource. The proof is there on the UDWRs web page. Here's what you do, look at all the hunter satisfaction indexes for all the LE units add them all up and divide by the total number. This will give you a value, do the same for all the CWMUs and let us know what you come up with.

Lastly, you stated....Again, although in my first post I was rather harsh to judgment and opinion, I do believe that CWMU operations need to share in the repercussions of any wildlife decisions that limit or reduce opportunities to the general public of permits (limited or otherwise.)

Just what are those that you think we should share? Why if CWMUs on average have higher buck to doe (bull to cow) ratios, significantly lower hunter densities, higher animal densities, higher hunter satisfaction index, older animals harvested on general should we have to share in what ever those repercussions you want to have us share----please do share!--seriously, why would you want to punish anyone for doing good things.

Again I ask, if a program continues and is doing good things provides habitat (not homes) for wildlife, are implementing management practices that exceed those of public lands why do some folks out there in the public feel such a strong hatred and need to kill the program?
Big


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## Blanding_Boy (Nov 21, 2007)

Birdslayer--

you are correct you and i and everyone else who applies and draws a moose permit is limited to one through the draw. that is the rule and there is no exceptions to that rule despite what you said. But you I and anyone else who can save their money can get one every year by buying a conservation permit. Oh and I guess you could do the same thing on a CWMU as well. Kind a cool system we have isn't it.

You said... Little Red Creek has how many thousands of acres, and yet they run thier cattle on public ground so that the elk have a great place to to get away from cattle, and yes that is a fact. Are you sure the elk are not looking for a place to get away from the public and all the UT ******** driving the roads? I believe this is just as good of a theory as your FACT. Come on, if you are going to state what you believe are 'FACTs' lets see some supportive information on the topic. I would like to see movement patterns from GPS radio collars showing that this is really the case.


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## SkullDesigns (Jul 13, 2010)

I have hunted on a few cwmu's and have had good to great experiences on them, The operators have been great to deal with, I have heard people bash them on here but I have never had a problem with them, it is there property and they are allowing us to hunt on it, Deseret is one that I have hunted on numerous times and they have treated me great, Three C is another one I have been on a ton also and Jerry is a great guy. I have heard of a few that I would stay away from but I think a few to avoid is better than having no chance at all.


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## lekstrom (Nov 1, 2010)

land owners and elk farmers love that paying customer! for example, a nice bull elk will make more proffit for a wealthy land owner than 40 beef calves. the big push on grazing practices and land access are based on one goal. that is to raise and sell all the bull elk you can from your ranch. weather it high fence or open range, its all about the money! We all know that there are real wildlife lovers and conservationists but the fact is, raising sheep or cattle is a side income for most individuals that own huge tracts of land like deseret, etc etc. its all about the almighty dollar. just follow the money. the real differance between LE and CWMU is all in how you like to hunt, yes there are some jerks out there opperating cwmu's so if you dont want to chance it put in for a LE permit. if you dont think the state of utah cares about the money, just remember how much the cost of hunting tags have gone up, the hunting age has gone down, next thing we know they will be selling tags to kindergardeners. most lawmakers dont give a rats butt about your hunting experience, that is why 90% of the hunters hunt on 10% of the land. if you dont believe it just go hunting on one of our "wildlife management areas". they are so crowded and majority are not even old enough to drive a car. oh well, complaining about it helps!


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## vaporpestcontrol (Nov 6, 2009)

We have drawn a bull elk tag on a CWMU with 9 points and came out with a brute and only had to hunt one day. I don't think they are all this way. I like the comment at the beginning of the post its about your expectations. I had 9 moose points I thought I could wait out 10 more years and get a monster or I could do my homework and draw a CWMU that will just get me a small mountable bull but would give me a great chance to have some fun and then could spend the next 10 years on a different oil hunt. Just go into it with what expectations you want and that will give you your answer on LE or CWMU


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

A CWMU bash post without HJB??? 
I don't think so! :lol: 

I have been one to bash CWMUs in the past, but I think the program has come a long way in the last few years. We now have tons of info at our finger tips. We know dates of hunts, success rates, we have maps and rules outlined, and we have ratings. 
Most CWMU operators can't screw you anymore. They are bound by all the information they provided on the DWR site. You have your hard copy of rules, regs, and maps before you even apply. 
I like the way this has been set up and I think it will help the public hunters alot. I think there are still some pretty shady operations out there, but for the most part I like where things are going with the program. 
I would like to see more public opportunity however. The public tag allotment is terrible considering the the CWMU program states they want to create more public hunting opportunity. 90% private tags and 10% public really does not go with statement. 70% to 30% would be a step in the right direction. Yes, it's thier land, but the wildlife is 100% public ownership.


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