# Militia Men take over federal building in Oregon



## middlefork

Here you go Goob.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ar...uilding-in-rural-oregon/ar-BBoa6sU?li=BBnbfcL

So do you think they only have steel shot and everybody has a plug in their magizines to only allow three shots?


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## wyogoob

thanks


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## #1DEER 1-I

This craps gonna end in blood one of these days. Eventually federal law enforcement will push back and this won't end well for either side or any of us for that matter. There are ways to peacefully protest, and calling for armed militia is not what I consider peaceful.


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## Bax*

Oh boy! Another Bundy thread! Just what we need [/sarcasm font]


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## Dunkem

-O,--O,--O,-


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## Fowlmouth

The topic should read "Militia Men Take Over Federal Building In Oregon" 

The Hammonds are planning on reporting to Jail on Monday as they told the judge they would do. So, a bunch of idiots with guns set out to accomplish what? The 2 felons that this whole thing is about are heading back to jail regardless. These chowderheads are going to get their ***** knocked in the dirt.


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## High Desert Elk

Taking over a federal building could be argued as trespassing on government property, a 4th degree felony. Can't hide their way out of this one. They done screwed up on getting any resolve...


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## wyogoob

I have been to Burns on a number of occasions and did some bird watching in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. Burns, a small town in the middle of nowhere, has more quail than any place I have ever been to. I'm involved in the Christmas Bird Counts (CBC) held throughout America. They have one in Burns, at Malheur. The number of quail counted in the 15-mile diameter circle each year on the Burns CBC is phenomenal. I always wanted to participate in the Burns CBC.

You couldn't find nicer people than in Burns but the last time I was there some individuals were pretty angry with the government, angry about the suppressed logging and the shutdown of the local sawmill, among other things.

Boy, after doing some bird-watching at Malheur I put the bird refuge on my bucket list of places to bird hunt. I wonder if the militia is gonna let the hunters in the refuge? It goes without saying they'll stop the Pinko Commie birdwatchers from getting in.

Hey, a public service announcement: If any of you fellas go up there to protest, and do a little duck hunting on the side, remember that the Malheur Refuge is not open for the extended White Front and White Geese season.
http://www.fws.gov/refuge/malheur/visit/visitor_activities/hunting.html


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## wyogoob

Fowlmouth said:


> The topic should read "Militia Men Take Over Federal Building In Oregon"
> 
> ..................................


got it


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## Badin

Catlow Valley sure is no Bunkerville. This will be real interesting.
On the lighter side of things, there is excellent fly fishing in the Blitzen river for native red bands.


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## Badin

Just check the regs first.


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## grizzly

Besides being convicted of arson, allegedly to hide poaching, it looks like Hammond has been convicted of harassing hunters on public land. It appears they felt the public land should be closed to hunting because the wildlife "temporarily wandered" onto it from the private Hammond ranch.

I'm not sure these guys are the ones hunters should be siding with....

"And in 1999, Steve Hammond confronted hunters on land bureau property near his ranch. The hunters said the next day "he fired several shots from his firearm that the hunting party heard about, but he said he was shooting at rabbits," Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Papagni Jr. said in court recently. Hammond was convicted later of interfering with use of public land.

An attorney for Steve Hammond said in a court filing that his actions "arose out of his belief that there was something wrong with a system that authorized commercial hunting of wildlife that temporarily wandered onto barren public land from private land lush with forage."

SOURCE: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2015/12/ranchers_fight_with_feds_spark.html


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## middlefork

I don't see anyone saying
this is ok.
These people are why people who have guns scare people who do, 't. 
They are criminals pure and simple.
It's not the hammonds that escalated the problem it's the wacos now involved. No different from international terrorists.

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


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## grizzly

middlefork said:


> I don't see anyone saying
> this is ok.
> These people are why people who have guns scare people who do, 't.
> They are criminals pure and simple.
> It's not the hammonds that escalated the problem it's the wacos now involved. No different from international terrorists.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


I didn't mean to imply anybody on UWN is defending Hammond or Bundy, but some of the other hunting forums have guys that are defending them. My post was directed at them. Sorry for any confusion.


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## Catherder

Badin said:


> On the lighter side of things, there is excellent fly fishing in the Blitzen river for native red bands.


You are right! The only problem is that fly fishermen probably rank about as high as the pinko commie birdwatchers in the eyes of the militia crowd. It could be hazardous duty for a few hours on the stream.


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## wyogoob

grizzly said:


> I didn't mean to imply anybody on UWN is defending Hammond or Bundy, but some of the other hunting forums have guys that are defending them. My post was directed at them. Sorry for any confusion.


There are other hunting forums? Yer kiddin' me.

.


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## Trooper

I saw this on FB...
"If a Muslim takes over a chicken coop anywhere in the world, it's a terrorist situation. 150 white guys take over a federal building, claiming they are prepared to remove the federal government and... _meh._


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## GaryFish

Yea, this is a whole different deal than the thing in Southern Nevada. An armed take over of a federal facility is a terrorist action.


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## LostLouisianian

I am beginning to think the Bundy bunch needs to have their water tested. Sounds like there are some heavy metals in there causing mental instability.


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## Lonetree

LostLouisianian said:


> I am beginning to think the Bundy bunch needs to have their water tested. Sounds like there are some heavy metals in there causing mental instability.


Its not heavy metals. Looking at Ryan I have a real good idea about what it probably is though. And no, you can't submit pictures of them for gear and prizes.

Besides you guys have this all wrong. This #cowboylivesmatters thing is where it's at, all the cool kids are doing it.


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## Lonetree

Goob, Burns has some amazingly nice people, and alot of quail. But I can't say much for the food or the accommodations. We used to stop a couple of times a years, but started to bypass the place.

In 2010 and 2011, the stretch of 20 from Bend to Vale had some of the highest mule deer per mile counts I'd seen in a very long time. Driving at dusk was an adventure to say the least. One evening we had well over 20 close calls, and a few contacts. Made for very slow going. Its no where near that now.


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## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> Goob, Burns has some amazingly nice people, and alot of quail. But I can't say much for the food or the accommodations. We used to stop a couple of times a years, but started to bypass the place.
> 
> In 2010 and 2011, the stretch of 20 from Bend to Vale had some of the highest mule deer per mile counts I'd seen in a very long time. Driving at dusk was an adventure to say the least. One evening we had well over 20 close calls, and a few contacts. Made for very slow going. Its no where near that now.


Yeah, I alluded to the nice people and the quail around Burns in this thread and another one. If you like to bird watch Malheur Wildlife Refuge is a neat place to go. I think the refuge bird list has over 350 species.

I haven't been there for about 6 years now. Rt 20 is really cool. I wouldn't want to break down out there east of Burns though. Boy that county is pretty desolate.

I wonder how we would handle something like this happening at say the Bear River Migratory Bird Refuge?


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## RandomElk16

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=38008099&ni...ding-armed-occupation-in-oregon&s_cid=queue-2

Statement from the LDS church. Glad they condemn the behavior. But, I have wondered why there always has to be a stance/statement on matters, mainly the last couple years. This isn't their(any orgs) fault, people wait for leaders and religious orgs to have a position on something... I don't know if this is always necessary? If you are a member of an org, you usually know what their beliefs would and would not support.


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## gdog

....dammit...guess I have to unpack now. Hey Goob... our road trip is off...maybe we should go ice fishing instead :mrgreen:


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## PBH

wouldn't the land the Bundy's are trying to "take back" actually belong to the Piutes?


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## Lonetree

#occupynowhere


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## Catherder

RandomElk16 said:


> http://www.ksl.com/?sid=38008099&ni...ding-armed-occupation-in-oregon&s_cid=queue-2
> 
> Statement from the LDS church. Glad they condemn the behavior. But, I have wondered why there always has to be a stance/statement on matters, mainly the last couple years. This isn't their(any orgs) fault, people wait for leaders and religious orgs to have a position on something... I don't know if this is always necessary? If you are a member of an org, you usually know what their beliefs would and would not support.


Yeah, you would think it wouldn't be necessary, but with these %@#hats prancing around that building with mormon names like "captain Moroni" 
and the leader quoting scripture, it is a welcome statement and action. An even stronger statement would be to excommunicate the Bundy's so their idiotic anti government action will not cause "guilt by association" to LDS people who don't espouse this crap. It will also keep ole' Cliven from speaking in Antimony Stake conferences as well. ;-)

I do have to wonder though if this is just an extreme natural extension of the "land grab" rhetoric spouted out by the likes of Ken Ivory, Rob Bishop, and just about every elected official in the 435. A firm denunciation of the militiamen by one of these politicians would be more telling, but so far, I've only heard crickets.


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## Lonetree

#Calfate
#Y'allqaeda
#VanillaISIS
#YokalHarem
#FailedQaeda
#Infantada

Catherder, You probably won't hear anything from them. Although I am waiting for Herbert to offer up some defense money.


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## wyogoob

There's a rumor floating around that a group of Wasatch-front birdwatchers loaded with 60x spotting scopes and long-range BB guns are going to stage a counter demonstration at the bird refuge.

good grief


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## Lonetree

wyogoob said:


> There's a rumor floating around that a group of Wasatch-front birdwatchers loaded with 60x spotting scopes and long-range BB guns are going to stage a counter demonstration at the bird refuge.
> 
> good grief


The BRBR? They might want to be careful, isn't that one actually open? Maybe they missed the part about _looking_ like a bada$$......you take over closed facilities with no one there..........

#YeeHawdis


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## High Desert Elk

What I can't understand, and from what I've read, that the Hammond's were found guilty of arson as defined by the Anti-terrorism code for fire on BLM land that one; got out of hand from a prescribed burn started on their own property, and two; from a lightening strike originating on their own property.

So, when a civilian has a mishap (according to what I read) it is a crime to be reckoned with. But, when the government messes up it's an "oops"...case in point - the mine tailings spill last summer in Silverton, CO that flowed through my neck of the woods. Is that not an act of enviro-terrorism and by the EPA no less??

Just wondering.


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## middlefork

The first fire was to cover up poaching. The second was a back fire that endangered blm fire fighters. The ranchers have surrendered to federal authorities and want nothing to do with the militia.
The discussion is not about the ranchers now it is about the people protesting now.

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk


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## stevo1

*fish*

Lots of rare and endangered fish in that area. Some trout I would love to add to the bucket list, but alas to rare.


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## High Desert Elk

middlefork said:


> The first fire was to cover up poaching. The second was a back fire that endangered blm fire fighters. The ranchers have surrendered to federal authorities and want nothing to do with the militia.
> The discussion is not about the ranchers now it is about the people protesting now.


Oh, I know that - just seems like a one way street sometimes...


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## stevo1

Catherder said:


> Yeah, you would think it wouldn't be necessary, but with these %@#hats prancing around that building with mormon names like "captain Moroni"
> and the leader quoting scripture, it is a welcome statement and action. An even stronger statement would be to excommunicate the Bundy's so their idiotic anti government action will not cause "guilt by association" to LDS people who don't espouse this crap. It will also keep ole' Cliven from speaking in Antimony Stake conferences as well. ;-)
> 
> I do have to wonder though if this is just an extreme natural extension of the "land grab" rhetoric spouted out by the likes of Ken Ivory, Rob Bishop, and just about every elected official in the 435. A firm denunciation of the militiamen by one of these politicians would be more telling, but so far, I've only heard crickets.


 Since the Church has made a statement the "landgrabbers" will lay low. Ivory, Noel, Bishop, Stewart and the rest all have been throwing gas on this for years.


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## Fowlmouth

The next time the BRBR closes due to a government shutdown, I know who I'm calling.


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## Badin

stevo1 said:


> Lots of rare and endangered fish in that area. Some trout I would love to add to the bucket list, but alas to rare.


I first fished that area 40 years ago, use to fry up big red bands before anyone knew what they were. FYI, they were good eating.


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## Catherder

Badin said:


> I first fished that area 40 years ago, use to fry up big red bands before anyone knew what they were. FYI, they were good eating.


Cool! Were you able to get over to the Alvord basin and catch Alvord cutts before they were gone?


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## wyogoob

Fowlmouth said:


> The next time the BRBR closes due to a government shutdown, I know who I'm calling.


Let me guess, they'll take over the maintenance garage and block the bridge and the loop.....while I'm back in there. 

.


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## Badin

Catherder said:


> Cool! Were you able to get over to the Alvord basin and catch Alvord cutts before they were gone?


Never got to fish that side. Just as well, meat was meat to us. We did not know what the word "relic" meant, we were just dumb ********. Sorta like the group freezing their youknowwhats off at the refuge. You would think they would have waited until June, then they could shoot some of the mosquitos that come out there and fry those up.


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## wyogoob

Badin said:


> Never got to fish that side. Just as well, meat was meat to us. We did not know what the word "relic" meant, we were just dumb ********. Sorta like the group freezing their youknowwhats off at the refuge. You would think they would have waited until June, then they could shoot some of the mosquitos that come out there and fry those up.


I've never fished Malheur area. What is the name of the river there?

You would be surprised how many birdwatchers from Idaho and Utah make an annual trip to that refuge.

Ditto on the mosquitoes.

I'm involved in the Christmas Bird Count (CBC) here in Evanston. We are known for our Greater Sage-grouse numbers. And I follow the Burns Christmas Bird Count. They are known for their California quail numbers. Evanston will tally an average of 2,000 *total* birds on a CBC. Burns might do 2,500 California Quail!!! Same size 15-mile diameter circle as Evanston. It's just amazing


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## Loke

wyogoob said:


> Evanston will tally an average of 2,000 *total* birds on a CBC. It's just amazing


How many of them are Utah birds looking for cheap gas, real beer, fireworks, and porn?


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## Critter

With the lotto going over 400 million for this Wednesday's drawing there is going to be a lineup going to Evanston.


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## Lonetree

High Desert Elk said:


> What I can't understand, and from what I've read, that the Hammond's were found guilty of arson as defined by the Anti-terrorism code for fire on BLM land that one; got out of hand from a prescribed burn started on their own property, and two; from a lightening strike originating on their own property.
> 
> So, when a civilian has a mishap (according to what I read) it is a crime to be reckoned with.  But, when the government messes up it's an "oops"...case in point - the mine tailings spill last summer in Silverton, CO that flowed through my neck of the woods. Is that not an act of enviro-terrorism and by the EPA no less??
> 
> Just wondering.


Here is the biggest difference between what the EPA did in Colorado, and what the Hammonds did in OR. While the EPA was completely inept and negligent, what they did was not intentional, nor was it done to cover up a crime. While in the case of the Hammonds, their story is all over the place, with witnesses saying the fire was lit to cover the crime of poaching deer. The intentional setting of the fires makes it arson, and the use of arson to cover a crime elevates the status of the arson. It is like when Peta or ALF "protesters" burn farms to cover their crimes of releasing animals.

While you could argue the arson case several ways for the Hammonds, the case against them over time does not look good. There have been numerous incidences of them harassing hunters on public property(Just like the Bundys). Not just once, but several times by people from all over, over many years. They think that public wildlife, on public lands belongs to them. They feel entitled to other peoples property, and use terroristic acts(arson and gun fire) to threaten the public, cover their crimes, and intimidate public hunters, on public property.

The one thing I will give them, unlike the Bundys or Lyman, is that they know when to take their lumps. They at least appear to have a sense of responsibility, which is sorely lacking with most of the entitled welfare crowd that has come to their "defense".

This is not 1215, this is not a noble case of people making the claim that the deer in the king's forest belongs to everyone. While that may be the guise that this is done under, that is far from the truth here. What is at the heart of this movement is people with a severe entitlement problem that want to steal from everyone else(You and me), and take for themselves. Their actual actions of theft, arson, and intimidation from and of us, prove this very clearly, despite their hollows claims otherwise.

These are nothing but welfare queens in cowboy hats and tactical vests marching and occupying, over their demands for hand outs. Because they the few, feel entitled to what belongs to and is paid for, by all of us. This is no different than the wildlife entitlement crowd here in Utah, that takes from everyone, to enrich themselves, the few, while building their fiefdoms. If you are on the dole, you are on the dole, plain and simple. If you take from the many taxpayers, and still feel entitled to more, I don't know what else to call it but what it is........welfare.......by welfare queens.

Like I have said from day one on the land issue. Make a proposal to PURCHASE(Up Front) federal lands from the US taxpayers that have maintaining them for decades. Otherwise some people need to put their empty hands back in their empty pockets, and go to work...

#MoreGovernmentCheeseButNoPlease


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## #1DEER 1-I

Lonetree said:


> Here is the biggest difference between what the EPA did in Colorado, and what the Hammonds did in OR. While the EPA was completely inept and negligent, what they did was not intentional, nor was it done to cover up a crime. While in the case of the Hammonds, their story is all over the place, with witnesses saying the fire was lit to cover the crime of poaching deer. The intentional setting of the fires makes it arson, and the use of arson to cover a crime elevates the status of the arson. It is like when Peta or ALF "protesters" burn farms to cover their crimes of releasing animals.
> 
> While you could argue the arson case several ways for the Hammonds, the case against them over time does not look good. There have been numerous incidences of them harassing hunters on public property(Just like the Bundys). Not just once, but several times by people from all over, over many years. They think that public wildlife, on public lands belongs to them. They feel entitled to other peoples property, and use terroristic acts(arson and gun fire) to threaten the public, cover their crimes, and intimidate public hunters, on public property.
> 
> The one thing I will give them, unlike the Bundys or Lyman, is that they know when to take their lumps. They at least appear to have a sense of responsibility, which is sorely lacking with most of the entitled welfare crowd that has come to their "defense".
> 
> This is not 1215, this is not a noble case of people making the claim that the deer in the king's forest belongs to everyone. While that may be the guise that this is done under, that is far from the truth here. What is at the heart of this movement is people with a severe entitlement problem that want to steal from everyone else(You and me), and take for themselves. Their actual actions of theft, arson, and intimidation from and of us, prove this very clearly, despite their hollows claims otherwise.
> 
> These are nothing but welfare queens in cowboy hats and tactical vests marching and occupying, over their demands for hand outs. Because they the few, feel entitled to what belongs to and is paid for, by all of us. This is no different than the wildlife entitlement crowd here in Utah, that takes from everyone, to enrich themselves, the few, while building their fiefdoms. If you are on the dole, you are on the dole, plain and simple. If you take from the many taxpayers, and still feel entitled to more, I don't know what else to call it but what it is........welfare.......by welfare queens.
> 
> Like I have said from day one on the land issue. Make a proposal to PURCHASE(Up Front) federal lands from the US taxpayers that have maintaining them for decades. Otherwise some people need to put their empty hands back in their empty pockets, and go to work...
> 
> #MoreGovernmentCheeseButNoPlease


Absolutely well thought out and perfectly said post.


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## DallanC

Always makes me laugh when the lotto gets high suddenly people go stand in lines to get tickets... like a low $100,000,000 win isn't enough or something.


-DallanC


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## High Desert Elk

Lonetree said:


> Here is the biggest difference between what the EPA did in Colorado, and what the Hammonds did in OR. While the EPA was completely inept and negligent, what they did was not intentional, nor was it done to cover up a crime. While in the case of the Hammonds, their story is all over the place, with witnesses saying the fire was lit to cover the crime of poaching deer. The intentional setting of the fires makes it arson, and the use of arson to cover a crime elevates the status of the arson. It is like when Peta or ALF "protesters" burn farms to cover their crimes of releasing animals.
> 
> While you could argue the arson case several ways for the Hammonds, the case against them over time does not look good. There have been numerous incidences of them harassing hunters on public property(Just like the Bundys). Not just once, but several times by people from all over, over many years. They think that public wildlife, on public lands belongs to them. They feel entitled to other peoples property, and use terroristic acts(arson and gun fire) to threaten the public, cover their crimes, and intimidate public hunters, on public property.
> 
> The one thing I will give them, unlike the Bundys or Lyman, is that they know when to take their lumps. They at least appear to have a sense of responsibility, which is sorely lacking with most of the entitled welfare crowd that has come to their "defense".
> 
> This is not 1215, this is not a noble case of people making the claim that the deer in the king's forest belongs to everyone. While that may be the guise that this is done under, that is far from the truth here. What is at the heart of this movement is people with a severe entitlement problem that want to steal from everyone else(You and me), and take for themselves. Their actual actions of theft, arson, and intimidation from and of us, prove this very clearly, despite their hollows claims otherwise.
> 
> These are nothing but welfare queens in cowboy hats and tactical vests marching and occupying, over their demands for hand outs. Because they the few, feel entitled to what belongs to and is paid for, by all of us. This is no different than the wildlife entitlement crowd here in Utah, that takes from everyone, to enrich themselves, the few, while building their fiefdoms. If you are on the dole, you are on the dole, plain and simple. If you take from the many taxpayers, and still feel entitled to more, I don't know what else to call it but what it is........welfare.......by welfare queens.
> 
> Like I have said from day one on the land issue. Make a proposal to PURCHASE(Up Front) federal lands from the US taxpayers that have maintaining them for decades. Otherwise some people need to put their empty hands back in their empty pockets, and go to work...
> 
> #MoreGovernmentCheeseButNoPlease


What they did was not good - I get that. Penalties for civilians seem to always be more stiff than it is for gov't officials when something goes array, planned or intentional.


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## wyogoob

gdog said:


> ....dammit...guess I have to unpack now. Hey Goob... our road trip is off...maybe we should go ice fishing instead :mrgreen:


Quail hunt's open until January 31 on Malheur Wildlife Refuge.


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## Catherder

wyogoob said:


> remember that the Malheur Refuge is not open for the extended White Front and White Geese season.
> http://www.fws.gov/refuge/malheur/visit/visitor_activities/hunting.html


and

"Quail hunt's open until January 31 on Malheur Wildlife Refuge."

I wonder if the militiamen will let you shoot white geese now? Also, will stricter or liberalized bag limits now apply on the quail?


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## wyogoob

Catherder said:


> and
> 
> "Quail hunt's open until January 31 on Malheur Wildlife Refuge."
> 
> I wonder if the militiamen will let you shoot white geese now? Also, will stricter or liberalized bag limits now apply on the quail?


I'm thinking there could be some poaching. If there's poaching I'm moving this thread to Big Game. ;-)


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## Catherder

wyogoob said:


> I'm thinking there could be some poaching. If there's poaching I'm moving this thread to Big Game. ;-)


Well, hopefully, there isn't and the thread can stay here. Big game always gets the longest threads.

However, if it comes out that Ammon Bundy is an SFW member, then I suppose you better move it. ;-)

Top of page!


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## gdog

This should help....


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## DallanC

Catherder said:


> However, if it comes out that Ammon Bundy is an SFW member, then I suppose you better move it. ;-)


HAHAHAHA I actually googled that a couple hours ago to see if there was a connection.

-DallanC


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## Dunkem

One of the links on that you tube video has some interesting facts about the over population of carp there.


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## middlefork

Dunkem said:


> One of the links on that you tube video has some interesting facts about the over population of carp there.


Cool. What's that saying about "teach a man to fish"? they should be set for the winter at least.


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## Lonetree

High Desert Elk said:


> What they did was not good - I get that. Penalties for civilians seem to always be more stiff than it is for gov't officials when something goes array, planned or intentional.


I see what you are saying, and I would clarify that by saying, that penalties should be more severe for government officials in cases of abuse, or criminal conduct.

Also, there is a big difference between accidental and intentional. It can be the difference between something being criminal and not being criminal. Example: You shoot a deer, that you swore had horns, but it's a doe. Regardless of how this happened, it was not intentional. So you turn yourself in and explain what occurred. In this scenario, you should be cut some slack, as your intent was not to poach, even though technically that is what occurred. Now lets say you intentionally shot that doe, and then covered it up? The result is the same, a dead doe, but the way that that came to be is very different, and that matters.

Don't think I let the feds off that easy. I've spent the last six+ months giving the FS and BLM hell over several things. The thought just had not occurred to me to take over a federal facility over the matters. Besides the last time I took over federal property, they just left me a note saying I had stayed longer than 14 days. I get the frustration with the feds, I do, I've seen it first hand, I've dealt with it. But this whole transfer of lands angle is complete and utter BS, that is completely tangential to the real problems that we have with federal lands management(Which I am a critic of on many levels).


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## wyogoob

Part of a statement from Trout Unlimited:

Until three days ago, the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge was open to all Americans as a birthright. Public lands such as the Malheur Refuge are one of the greatest gifts we enjoy as sportsmen and women. Today, an armed mob has robbed us of that birthright. When the grandstanding subsides, TU and the vast majority of Americans who value our public lands will continue working to bring the power of collaborative stewardship to the protection and management of our shared lands and waters.

http://www.tu.org/blog-posts/armed-takeover-of-refuge-wrong-headed

The wildlife refuges belong to all of us as hunters, fisherman, photographers, hikers, and birdwatchers. We can't let a small group of thugs keep us from our public lands.

.


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## Lonetree

It needs to end soon, Ammon needs to get back to work...........

"Ammon Bundy runs a Phoenix-based company called Valet Fleet Services LLC, which specializes in repairing and maintaining fleets of semitrucks throughout Arizona. On April 15, 2010-Tax Day, as it happens-Bundy's business borrowed $530,000 through a Small Business Administration loan guarantee program. The available public record does not indicate what the loan was used for or whether it was repaid. The SBA website notes that this loan guarantee was issued under a program "to aid small businesses which are unable to obtain financing in the private credit marketplace." The government estimated that this subsidy could cost taxpayers $22,419. Bundy did not respond to an email request for comment about the SBA loan."

#$%^&*ing Gubmint!


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## wyogoob

Oregon sportsmen condemn extremist action:

http://www.backcountryhunters.org/i...ience-law-and-order-on-public-lands-in-oregon


............................................Oregon sportsmen were quick to decry the extremists' actions. "As sportsmen and conservationists, we urge the occupiers to end this fool's errand," said Brian Jennings, BHA's Oregon outreach coordinator, "and we urge the Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service to keep their employees safe, be patient and thoroughly enforce the law."

 The loosely organized group of extremists initiated an occupation of the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, near Burns, Oregon, over the weekend. They are led by out-of-state radicals including Ammon Bundy, son of anti-government extremist Cliven Bundy of Nevada

 "The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge is a popular hunting area for waterfowl and upland gamebirds," stated Tawney. "It is one unit in a system of millions of acres of public lands on which American families depend for access to and opportunity in the great outdoors....................................................................

​


----------



## Lonetree

These guys are really taking it on the web, someone needs to step up and give them a little help, let me see if I can try to explain this for them.

I'll start with a quote and another issue to illustrate why you guys just don't understand what these patriots are trying to do. "This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy,"--Don Peay

You see this is a property rights issue, and sportsmen are just getting too greedy with _our_ public lands that really belong to these guys. Don't you guys understand that if we move control and access of these lands from everyone, to a smaller group of people and entities, that it will be better for everyone? Can't you see what these great noblemen are trying to do for you?

Despite my efforts, maybe they should hire a PR firm to get their message across better. I understand their are government grants available for start ups for that sort of thing.........


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Lonetree said:


> These guys are really taking it on the web, someone needs to step up and give them a little help, let me see if I can try to explain this for them.
> 
> I'll start with a quote and another issue to illustrate why you guys just don't understand what these patriots are trying to do. "This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy,"--Don Peay
> 
> You see this is a property rights issue, and sportsmen are just getting too greedy with _our_ public lands that really belong to these guys. Don't you guys understand that if we move control and access of these lands from everyone, to a smaller group of people and entities, that it will be better for everyone? Can't you see what these great noblemen are trying to do for you?
> 
> Despite my efforts, maybe they should hire a PR firm to get their message across better. I understand their are government grants available for start ups for that sort of thing.........


I think I can finally get on board with them. But seriously, yeah I've read the comments, and they are taking a bashing for this BS on every article I've seen. They have a few people in the comments defending them, but for the most part the American people are tearing them to shreds, and they deserve every bit of it.


----------



## DallanC

LMAO... they showed up but forgot food? Now they are asking for people to mail them food / snacks / warm clothes... WTF???

-DallanC


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

DallanC said:


> LMAO... they showed up but forgot food? Now they are asking for people to mail them food / snacks / warm clothes... WTF???
> 
> -DallanC


Hey they were prepared for the long haul. Idiots.


----------



## Catherder

DallanC said:


> LMAO... they showed up but forgot food? Now they are asking for people to mail them food / snacks / warm clothes... WTF???
> 
> -DallanC


Funny, isn't it? For comic relief, we now may get to see "Captain Moroni" and his pals marching through the marsh trying to harvest Goobs quail and those overabundant carp with tactical weapons. Good luck with that, podnuhs.

Hopefully, the authorities will just seal off the area, let these guys submit when their stomachs can't take it anymore and the last couple weeks of the Malheur quail season should still be salvaged.


----------



## bowgy

As long as they are getting attention they will stay, if everyone, (law enforcement, media, locals etc.) ignored them they would probably get bored and leave.;-)


----------



## Dunkem

Mail them food? Isn't the Postal Service a federal thing? Good Lord cut off their food and beer.


----------



## wyogoob

What Catherder said.


They could live off all the quail that are on the grounds at the MNWR Refuge Visitors Center for a month.

I wish they would just move, like to the Bear River Migratory Bird Refuge or Farmington, so me and gdog can go quail hunting at Malheur. The season closes January 31.


----------



## RandomElk16

I thought they said please send snakes... Oops. Maybe they can eat that diamondback that I sent. Maybe I should have put open with caution on it?


----------



## wyogoob

The native Indians at Malheur bring up a very good point:

http://www.kgw.com/news/local/easte...d-group-presses-for-us-land-transfer/11299560


----------



## PBH

picture of sign on CNN:
























sign in Mesquite, NV:

"Stay in Oregon Bundys!"


----------



## longbow

I came upon a "bird-hugger" blocking the BRBR loop while she took her dumb pictures of a bunch of dumb birds. I couldn't get by for about 10 minutes!!! So.....I have decided to take over the public portapotty down at the BRBR. I have my long range longbow, a case of green beans and a whole case of toilet paper. I'm here for the duration. I can't draw my bow inside but if I crack the door a bit I could probably reach out and poke the BRBR host with a judo point. [gotta run, I have a call from my therapist]


----------



## Lonetree

http://blog.trcp.org/2016/01/05/aut...dium=email&utm_campaign=Roosevelt Report 2015


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Looks like the relationship is not as bad as its made out to be. Many ranchers seem to have a good relationship with the Department of Interior.


----------



## wyogoob

longbow said:


> I came upon a "bird-hugger" blocking the BRBR loop while she took her dumb pictures of a bunch of dumb birds. I couldn't get by for about 10 minutes!!! So.....I have decided to take over the public portapotty down at the BRBR. I have my long range longbow, a case of green beans and a whole case of toilet paper. I'm here for the duration. I can't draw my bow inside but if I crack the door a bit I could probably reach out and poke the BRBR host with a judo point. [gotta run, I have a call from my therapist]


Bronze Subaru?

There was a time when stuff like that happened often at BRMBR and other wildlife refuges. The bird nuts use to go out of their way to give ya a hard time especially if you were walking back to the parking lot carrying some ducks. I use to belong to one of the big bird watching clubs on the Wasatch Front. Boy, had some interesting arguments back then. From what I see and hear its much better now. Most of the bird watching clubs in Utah, and elsewhere, encourage their members to purchase Federal Duck Stamps and many of them do.

Anyway, if they are being hard-headed just walk over to them and say. "Wow, I love your binoculars. I wish I had some like that" and then tell them you seen a Cassin's Vireo over on the 2C boat ramp. They'll leave and in a hurry.


----------



## longbow

Honestly, every bird watcher we've encountered down there has been very friendly. Even if we were obviously hunters.


----------



## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> http://blog.trcp.org/2016/01/05/aut...dium=email&utm_campaign=Roosevelt Report 2015


Yeah, I read that yesterday. There's always two sides (or more) to every story. Who knows. Do the Hammond's have a big fan club with the locals in Burns? I don't see it.

That's political stuff that doesn't matter much to me at the moment. I'm disappointed that a disgruntled group is shutting down a wildlife refuge. That's an outdoor issue, especially important in this part of the country where we enjoy a number of wildlife refuges in our back yard. I'd hate to see this happen here and especially during the waterfowl season.


----------



## wyogoob

longbow said:


> Honestly, every bird watcher we've encountered down there has been very friendly. Even if we were obviously hunters.


That's good to hear Chuck.

Many of the birdwatchers, like myself, hunt or are ex-hunters. And more non-hunting birdwatchers are accepting them, uh, us.

.


----------



## Fowlmouth

I got my Jeep stuck launching the boat yesterday. It was very slick with ice and I was just spinning tires. There were a few duck hunters that passed right by as I worked to throw gravel under the tires with a boat paddle. The ONLY person that stopped and asked if I needed help was a bird watcher/photographer.


----------



## Lonetree

http://www.yahoo.com/news/burns-oregon-residents-to-bundys--it-s-time-to-go-home-201715243.html


----------



## gdog

For our Manderin speaking forum members....


----------



## Badin

I am starting to pity these poor boys. But it could get worse. Time for them to tuck tail and run before a bunch of fly fisherman and bird watchers go up there and kick butt.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/pi...m-not-going-let-some-other-people-be-my-face/


----------



## Lonetree

Badin, I don't think they need to worry about the fly fishermen or bird watchers. The woman in the video above has it covered.


----------



## Badin

I'll bet they wish they were back in Bunkerville about now.


----------



## Catherder

Badin said:


> I am starting to pity these poor boys. But it could get worse. Time for them to tuck tail and run before a bunch of fly fisherman and bird watchers go up there and kick butt.


I don't know. I kind of want them to stay a little longer. Each day they stay shacked up there discredits the land grab and militia movements more and more in the eyes of Westerners, average Americans living elsewhere, and apparently, even the Chinese. ;-)

Just get them outta there in time for Goob and Gdog to have their quail hunt.


----------



## Dunkem

These idiots up there wasting our money, ruining our wetlands, giving honest hard working ranchers a bad name. PBH was right Nevada doesn't want them back, who in their right mind would. Give us a break Blunder (Bundy) and go home!!!


----------



## wyogoob

Turning Malheur into private ownership could harm wildlife and the environment experts say:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/or...he-environment-and-humans/ar-CCjdnu?ocid=iehp

.....................................................................The illegal occupation of Oregon's Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, near the town of Burns, has stretched on for nearly a week now, with the armed occupiers insisting Wednesday that they felt it was still "not quite time" to go home yet. From the start, the occupation has been a clear protest of federal control over the land, and the message has been simple: Return Western lands to private ownership. 
It's a battle that has been waged in various forms for more than a century. But some experts say that if the protesters were to actually get what they want, and the land was turned over for conversion into farmland or ranchland, the results could be ruinous - not just for the wild plants and animals that call the land home, but for the humans living in the area as well. 
That's because Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, along with much of the surrounding area, performs a variety of important ecosystem services, experts say. The refuge's importance to wildlife in its current form is clear: It's home to more than 300 bird species, nearly 60 mammal species and a variety of fish, reptiles and amphibians. Its 120,000 acres of wetland habitat comprise an important stopover for migratory birds. 
But maintaining these habitats in their current state is a boon to humans, too, in a number of ways.................................................................


----------



## wyogoob

Malheur is one of the premiere sites for birds and birding in the U.S. The wildlife area is a natural "trap" for migrating birds drawing thousands of birdwatchers and outdoor enthusiasts to the refuge during the spring migration each year.

http://audubonportland.org/local-birding/iba/iba-map/malheur


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Anyone else getting real tired of this?

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_bundy_militant.html


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Quote from the rancher who "gave them permission" to tear down the fence:

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/rancher_i_didnt_know_anything.html



> "As owner of the ranch that borders the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters, I would like to make it clear that I DO NOT condone nor did I ask for the protesters at the refuge to cut fences to allow my cows access to the refuge. The protesters are quoting a representative who did not have the authority to speak on my behalf.
> "I have no grievances with the refuge or the BLM. I have BLM grazing permits that I use each year, and I am a good steward of the land. I am a hay farmer, I DO NOT DEPEND ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO RAISE MY CATTLE. I have been in Harney County for four years, in no way do I feel that I am entitled to the refuge for grazing. I was informed of the fence last fall prior to its construction, and it has not nor will it affect my cattle operation."
> Tim Puckett, Golden Rule Farms


----------



## wyogoob

The original occupiers may be leaving:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ar...eparture-plans/ar-CCuaSQ?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp


----------



## bowgy

I think it is pretty comical, they are at a place in the middle of nowhere 30 miles from the nearest town of less than 3000 people that is the county seat and probably the only town of any size in the entire county and they are getting what they want, public attention and nationally at that.

I still think if they were ignored and no press or law presence they would get bored and leave. JMHO


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/ore...ravel-to-utah-to-plot-another-armed-showdown/

If they bring this fight here, they need to be stood up to.

Also this:
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_occupiers_recr.html#comments

As far as I'm concerned if you aren't paying grazing fees your cattle are fair game.


----------



## bowgy

[QUOTE
As far as I'm concerned if you aren't paying grazing fees your cattle are fair game.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what you mean by this, but as far as the Bundy's are concerned, the Feds had their cattle once and didn't keep them, if you are talking about yourself and that you can take them, I wouldn't.

Taking the law into your own hands probably wouldn't go over to well from either side.

http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/fence/ut_fnc.htm


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

I'm more just saying that if they recruit people to not pay fees or listen to the BLM, we just have to put up with it? 

Also if they bring this to Utah, like that article says there plans are, I would hope we as sportsmen in the state shove them down.


----------



## klbzdad

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I'm more just saying that if they recruit people to not pay fees or listen to the BLM, we just have to put up with it?
> 
> Also if they bring this to Utah, like that article says there plans are, I would hope we as sportsmen in the state shove them down.


I'm in. While I won't take up arms against them on my own, I sure as hell will stand side by side with my Sheriff and his deputies ready to rumble. I can't stand the mess that the USFS and BLM have created concerning the health of our public lands, but I'm more irritated with inbred dinks like Bundy and his pocket constitution militia bullying good people trying to do what little good they are allowed to do for public lands. Its not the local employees of these agencies, blame Washington DC.


----------



## wyogoob

A friendly reminder:


UWN Forum Rules: What should*  should not *be posted?


Forum members should not post combative, argumentative, abusive, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, off-topic, or sexually-oriented material* or make posts that encourage or condone criminal activity.* In addition, we do not want posts that are derisive of religious, ethnic or racial groups.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

http://www.opb.org/news/article/ammon-bundy-oregon-grazing-blm-finicum-crane/

It's time to put a definitive hammer down. This situation is going to get worse. Bundy and Finicum are basically saying they got away with it, why can't you? Welfare drama queens is all they are. The Feds by some stretch of law enforcement have got to put the hammer down on Bundy and others who think they're going to try this, to leave little doubt the law will be followed and there are no exceptions to that rule. I'm fine with changing management policies and would like to see the federal land agencies make some big changes, but this isn't the way we do this in the 21st century.


----------



## bowgy

I may not agree with the way the Bundy's are doing things but are you really calling for them to do something that may result in another Ruby Ridge, or Waco or Wounded Knee?

They may be breaking the law and not doing things the right way but I don't think they are doing anything bad enough that people should be killed for.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

bowgy said:


> I may not agree with the way the Bundy's are doing things but are you really calling for them to do something that may result in another Ruby Ridge, or Waco or Wounded Knee?
> 
> They may be breaking the law and not doing things the right way but I don't think they are doing anything bad enough that people should be killed for.


I don't want to see anyone die, but if something isn't done, it's going to make this already tense land issue even worse. It's going to advocate lawbreakers to break the law and I don't want to see that either.


----------



## Badin

If we can get them to go to Wyoming, then we don't need to sweat it. I'll contribute, anyone else?


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

BHA has taken a pretty good stand on this issue, here's a t-shirt if anyone's interested:

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/...-shirts/product/253-public-t-shirt-100-cotton


----------



## RandomElk16

These guys are a joke.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-st...standoff_anger_frustrat.html#incart_big-photo

Will they leave now?


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Bundy and three others have been arrested:

http://katu.com/news/local/leader-of-oregon-occupation-ammon-bundy-three-others-arrested


----------



## DallanC

... and they are reporting shots were fired! 


-DallanC


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

DallanC said:


> ... and they are reporting shots were fired!
> 
> -DallanC


They're now reporting 1 dead.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/


----------



## GaryFish

Sounds like suicide by cop. So does this put out this particular fire? Or just add fuel to it?


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

I believe there are still others holding up in the refuge, but the FBI has set up checkpoints in and out of the refuge. Eventually they'll have to surrender when trying to exit the refuge. All of those arrested will be facing federal felony charges so we get to pay for their food, water, and heat for quite a while. Hopefully the few that remain will just surrender. There are women and children inside still I believe along with a few remaining maniacts.


----------



## Lonetree

Live stream out of the refuge: 




The feed keeps dropping, so you need to go to the channel and refresh regularly.

They have been up all night, and appear to have got all methed up about an hour ago. They are digging in with a track hoe right now.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Last night their live stream showed the Santilli guy trying to go in and get the women and children. The guy on the phone wouldn't allow it, neither would the FBI, and the guy on the phone told him they won't take him alive, it could still become an even uglier situation. It is good to see they are containing it at this point. These idiots got lucky once in Nevada, the FBI isn't going to walk away from this one.


----------



## Trooper

In the Army I was constantly harping about not over-estimating the enemy, because by doing so you are often surprised by what they actually do... same here. These A-holes apparently didn't even have a plan for what to do if/when they got pulled over and it appears an intra-vehicle argument broke out, culminating in violence. Similarly, do these guys really think they have a defensible space? Especially when they have a feed going showing LE their positions and defenses? You show a trench and you get a grenade. So stupid, unless they are trying to martyr themselves. People are going to get killed in a hopeless position. I hope LE just cuts the power and heat, sets up a perimeter, jams the phones and waits this thing out. Let everyone walk out of this thing alive. No one else needs to get killed.

"In-shala, Abu-Bundy!"


----------



## Lonetree

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Last night their live stream showed the Santilli guy trying to go in and get the women and children. The guy on the phone wouldn't allow it, neither would the FBI, and the guy on the phone told him they won't take him alive, it could still become an even uglier situation. It is good to see they are containing it at this point. These idiots got lucky once in Nevada, the FBI isn't going to walk away from this one.


Yeah I watched Santilli's arrest.

Stream is back up out of Malheur:


----------



## Lonetree

Trooper said:


> In the Army I was constantly harping about not over-estimating the enemy, because by doing so you are often surprised by what they actually do... same here. These A-holes apparently didn't even have a plan for what to do if/when they got pulled over and it appears an intra-vehicle argument broke out, culminating in violence. Similarly, do these guys really think they have a defensible space? Especially when they have a feed going showing LE their positions and defenses? You show a trench and you get a grenade. So stupid, unless they are trying to martyr themselves. People are going to get killed in a hopeless position. I hope LE just cuts the power and heat, sets up a perimeter, jams the phones and waits this thing out. Let everyone walk out of this thing alive. No one else needs to get killed.
> 
> "In-shala, Abu-Bundy!"


I think we are down to one guy on the refuge that knows what he is doing. The rest will piss themselves when the SHTF. They are free to leave and should. Meal team six is going to get eaten alive, and most are going to cry like little girls. They don't have a clue......


----------



## gdog

wyogoob said:


> I wish they would just move, like to the Bear River Migratory Bird Refuge or Farmington, so me and gdog can go quail hunting at Malheur. The season closes January 31.


Goob...we still may be able to make it..if they clear the rest out today. I'll get the truck packed and ready.


----------



## Lonetree

If anyone has followed the suppression/disruption of chat and social media on this, it has been quite masterful. I'm going to say that we have learned a lot with the internet war and psyops in the middle East. It is good to know that we are on our game WRT these things. 

Between the social media disruption, lack of sleep, and self induced meth driven psychosis, these guys may kill themselves before anyone else does it for them.


----------



## bowgy

GaryFish said:


> Sounds like suicide by cop. So does this put out this particular fire? Or just add fuel to it?


18 year old girl in the vehicle says it was murder. He was unarmed with his hands up?????

People on the radio in Cedar City (KSUB 590) are calling for a grand memorial when they have his funeral and are suggesting to have flags at half mast.


----------



## GaryFish

Some reports are saying the guy that got shot was in a separate vehicle. What REALLY happened may not be known. The mother of the kid in Missouri also said her kid would never go after a cop. Not sure who to believe on this one. 

Personally, I'm more inclined to believe the law enforcement and the dash cams, than the gun toting extremists that incited an armed take over of a bird watching visitor's center after demanding that convicted poachers were being wrongly imprisoned.


----------



## gdog

Either way...they saved taxpayers some money instead of having to feed him 3x's a day...:usa2:


----------



## Catherder

gdog said:


> Goob...we still may be able to make it..if they clear the rest out today. I'll get the truck packed and ready.


Goob hasn't been here for a day or two. Sorry gdog, but I think he left without you and is already up there. Probably has his limit of quail already and he's now doing a bird count on the Northern Harriers and Ferruginous hawks.


----------



## DallanC

GaryFish said:


> What REALLY happened may not be known.


Oh I'll bet with the amount of media coverage on this, every officer / vehicle had running cameras. I'd doubt anything can happen without it being recorded.

-DallanC


----------



## bowgy

gdog said:


> Either way...they saved taxpayers some money instead of having to feed him 3x's a day...:usa2:


Really..... REALLY????? Your are glad that they killed him over this???

It's getting to be a sad world.


----------



## bowgy

GaryFish said:


> Some reports are saying the guy that got shot was in a separate vehicle. What REALLY happened may not be known. The mother of the kid in Missouri also said her kid would never go after a cop. Not sure who to believe on this one.
> 
> Personally, I'm more inclined to believe the law enforcement and the dash cams, than the gun toting extremists that incited an armed take over of a bird watching visitor's center after demanding that convicted poachers were being wrongly imprisoned.


I'm not going to believe either side until all the facts are out.


----------



## Kwalk3

I think the post referenced was tongue in cheek, but I could be wrong.


----------



## gdog

bowgy said:


> Really..... REALLY????? Your are glad that they killed him over this???
> 
> It's getting to be a sad world.


No...not glad by any means...but I won't lose any sleep over it. He made choices and put himself in that situation and in harms way. We all have choices and must live by the consequences of those decisions....hope he's happy with his.


----------



## bowgy

gdog said:


> No...not glad by any means...but I won't lose any sleep over it. He made choices and put himself in that situation and in harms way. We all have choices and must live by the consequences of those decisions....hope he's happy with his.


Ok I can agree with you there.

He may well have deserved it, all the facts are not out yet. One of the women in the vehicle gave a report that no one from the group even pulled a gun and he was shot and killed with his hands up and was shot 3 times after he fell to the ground.

Ryan was it in the shoulder when they riddled the vehicle with bullets, surprised that he was the only one hit in the car.

The Feds and State police haven't given their version yet.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Bowgy, here's a video of the people the Feds and law enforcement have to deal with now:

https://news.vice.com/article/come-...attle-as-feds-surround-oregon-wildlife-refuge

With these type of statements:
"Media's been waiting for a bloodbath this whole time we've been here," he added. "Now there's going to be one."

"There are no laws in this United States now, this is a free for all Armageddon.

"If they stop you from getting here (Feds), kill them."

Yeah I'm sorry but the guy in the video on that link is a nut, and I wouldn't want to be the one having to deal with him. Let's be very clear that the FBI has been patient 3 weeks, and issued a statement anyone remaining on the refuge can leave. Again theyve given the remaining people another chance at a peaceful resolution, and again it has been turned down. There has been chance after chance to end this peacefully and every decision is to insight inevitable confrontation with law enforcement. If this attitude remains, there's going to be more blood shed. The FBI gave them an out, now this guys response is "kill them" that kind of attitude and decision making is leading quickly down a trail to bloodshed.


----------



## Iron Bear

We need a thumbs down unlike button.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Iron Bear said:


> We need a thumbs down unlike button.


You and I would be in a competition of who gets the most dislikes.


----------



## bowgy

#1DEER 1-I said:


> You and I would be in a competition of who gets the most dislikes.


Really, you are going to dislike that I want to know all the facts before making up my mind on the shooting? I was speaking of only that incident and not the whole situation.

But you seem to know everything that is going on, didn't know you were there the whole time.

But to me you are just an unknown behind a keyboard just like me. Your opinion isn't any more valuable to me than anyone else's.

I'm just commenting on things I have heard on the news reports and I take all of them with a grain of salt. I used to work for the Federal Government.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

bowgy said:


> Really, you are going to dislike that I want to know all the facts before making up my mind on the shooting? I was speaking of only that incident and not the whole situation.
> 
> But you seem to know everything that is going on, didn't know you were there the whole time.
> 
> But to me you are just an unknown behind a keyboard just like me. Your opinion isn't any more valuable to me than anyone else's.
> 
> I'm just commenting on things I have heard on the news reports and I take all of them with a grain of salt. I used to work for the Federal Government.


I'm not sure where you got I dislike your post? I was saying Iron Bear and I would have more dislikes on our posts than anyone else if there was a dislike button.

I agree with you on the shooting, i hope there is footage of the whole scenario that is released to see what actually happened. I'm just saying I think they got to a point where they pushed their luck and said too many things that could be seen as threatening on camera, and their actions are what got them to that point. I'm not saying one way or another what happened on the shooting, that remains to be determined. My other post with the video of the other guy still held up in the refuge was just to show the next step in ending this might not be peaceful either. I think at this point they just need to keep a checkpoint in and out of the refuge and slowly but surely it will come to a peaceful end. With the way that guy acted in that video though and condoning the killing of law enforcement that tries to stop people from entering the refuge, that's a quick way to make it head south.

Sorry bowgy, I didn't intend to offend you or criticize what you said you're on the right side of the argument being neutral until more is known.


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## bowgy

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I'm not sure where you got I dislike your post? I was saying Iron Bear and I would have more dislikes on our posts than anyone else if there was a dislike button.
> 
> I agree with you on the shooting, i hope there is footage of the whole scenario that is released to see what actually happened. I'm just saying I think they got to a point where they pushed their luck and said too many things that could be seen as threatening on camera, and their actions are what got them to that point. I'm not saying one way or another what happened on the shooting, that remains to be determined. My other post with the video of the other guy still held up in the refuge was just to show the next step in ending this might not be peaceful either. I think at this point they just need to keep a checkpoint in and out of the refuge and slowly but surely it will come to a peaceful end. With the way that guy acted in that video though and condoning the killing of law enforcement that tries to stop people from entering the refuge, that's a quick way to make it head south.
> 
> Sorry bowgy, I didn't intend to offend you or criticize what you said you're on the right side of the argument being neutral until more is known.


No offense taken, it's pretty hard to offend me. I just mistook your post since Iron Bear had just liked my previous post:shock: so my bad.;-)


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## klbzdad

bowgy said:


> 18 year old girl in the vehicle says it was murder. He was unarmed with his hands up?????
> 
> People on the radio in Cedar City (KSUB 590) are calling for a grand memorial when they have his funeral and are suggesting to have flags at half mast.


Any politician in Cedar City that supports that asinine notion I will invest money, time, and even my own blood to remove from office this November. There is one commissioner up for reelection that needs to go pound sand in Bunkerville with his brethren. He is also an Ivory butt plug. Sorry, I'm a little irritated we are even talking about these asshats again let alone having to hear the HD radio bullcrap. Glad to have changed the channel after only a couple minutes.

Here's the deal, these clowns want public land for their own purpose and believe that if given to the states they can buy it. Sorry, but both Ammon and Ryan need to clean up their COUNTY tax mess before they start preaching sovereignty to those of us who are responsible land owners. Rant over....


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## Hoopermat

I cannot believe the amount of support these people are getting from the 2nd amendment crowd. Why haven't these people looked into the problem with state control and what these ranchers want. I blows me away it's the blind leading the blind.


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## Iron Bear

When I comes to entitlement ranchers have nothing over a lot of you hunters here. 

I'm not aware of too many rancher who believe they should be able to graze others private land. I know lots of hunters who think they should be able to hunt and fish others private property.

Take hunting away and 1-I will be rabble rousing you all to protest. Maybe even take over the SFW headquarters. 

I'm betting these rancher guys really really believe in their cause. It's not just a fun hobby to them.


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## gdog

Catherder said:


> Goob hasn't been here for a day or two. Sorry gdog, but I think he left without you and is already up there. Probably has his limit of quail already and he's now doing a bird count on the Northern Harriers and Ferruginous hawks.


Nah...Mrs. Goob made him go back to work for a little while. She needed some new shoes or something like that....


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## Catherder

Iron Bear said:


> I'm not aware of too many rancher who believe they should be able to graze others private land. I know lots of hunters who think they should be able to hunt and fish others private property.


I don't know. From what I've heard from the militia-rancher crowd, they not only want to graze on *MY* land for a pittance (or nothing), they now want to forcibly steal it from me as well. :shock:


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## RandomElk16

Iron Bear said:


> When I comes to entitlement ranchers have nothing over a lot of you hunters here.
> 
> I'm not aware of too many rancher who believe they should be able to graze others private land. I know lots of hunters who think they should be able to hunt and fish others private property.
> 
> Take hunting away and 1-I will be rabble rousing you all to protest. Maybe even take over the SFW headquarters.
> 
> I'm betting these rancher guys really really believe in their cause. It's not just a fun hobby to them.


Tell this to my cwmu rancher neighbor with massive amounts of land who runs his cattle all over our property, ruins our gates, fences, and other things. Sheep riddle my other land. They are cool though, not near as destructive. My point is plenty of ranchers like free range. Don't have to build fences and are barely accountable. Keeps their cwmu's nice also.

They seem to want to graze on land that is specifically not theirs. For free. And if you can just give them the land, that works too.

Go try and hunt Bundy's - public land. See if they haven't taken ownership.


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## Catherder

gdog said:


> Nah...Mrs. Goob made him go back to work for a little while. She needed some new shoes or something like that....


Yeah, that's probably it. She found out what Goobs taxidermy bill is likely to be for his ram this fall.


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## Iron Bear

Catherder said:


> I don't know. From what I've heard from the militia-rancher crowd, they not only want to graze on *MY* land for a pittance (or nothing), they now want to forcibly steal it from me as well. :shock:


I rest my case.


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## #1DEER 1-I

3 more arrested
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/2...ccupying-oregon-wildlife-refuge-arrested.html

IB, I don't have a problem with public land grazing, I have a problem with the entitlement attitude. If I were making money off the land, and utilizing it for my business I would expect to pay a fee and abide by the land managers policies. There are legal pathways to fix these things. The problem is environmentalists and lobbying groups actually take those pathways and these type of people just sit back and complain. At a subsidized price I'm even okay with grazing, but the fact these ranchers want to hijack our entire public lands system for personal greed is just a ridiculous and selfish notion. I have no problem with them being on the land, I have no problem with oil and gas in areas that are managed to not impede wildlife too much, I would also despite what you think, like to see more timber harvest around our national forests. There's definetly policies to be changed that would benefit us and our landscapes but what these guys did was bring a knife to a gunfight and demand ridiculous things while illegally occupying a federal building and using federal equipment. Now they have dug trenches expecting a war with the FBI. I doubt they'll get it, but if time rolls on its only going to last for so long. Those remaining need to turn themselves and avoid bloodshed and further problems. They aren't going to wind up anything but dead if they remain and show deadly resistance to law enforcement. Yes we need some changes, but they chose the wrong way to do it. I have no problem sharing te land with them, but don't impede my rights or uses for your personal profits.


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## Catherder

Iron Bear said:


> I rest my case.


I suppose I do too. ;-)

Here's one serious question though. If public lands did become available for purchase on the open market, how many of these militant rancher types could afford to purchase significant acreage at fair market prices?

The answer is very few to none of them, thus we hear their rhetoric to "confiscate" the land without purchase.

The people that can afford to buy the land would be wealthy out-of-staters, real estate investors, large businesses, foreign entities like the Chinese, and, just for you, maybe the LDS church will buy some too. Regular folks in the 435 will not/can not afford it and will be the ultimate losers because they depend so much on public lands for their recreation and it will rapidly be lost to them as the No trespassing signs go up.


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## PBH

Catherder said:


> Here's one serious question though. If public lands did become available for purchase on the open market, how many of these militant rancher types could afford to purchase significant acreage at fair market prices?


Just those that have been saving their dry-land alfalfa subsidy checks!
Rememeber: Major Major's father was very good at not growing alfalfa. The more alfalfa he did not grow, the more money the government would pay him to not grow alfalfa so that he could purchase more land to not grow alflafa.

I still can't figure out why these white ranchers think that land is theirs. If we're going to turn over that land to anyone, it should go to the Piute Tribe.


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## Hoopermat

Catherder said:


> I suppose I do too. ;-)
> 
> Here's one serious question though. If public lands did become available for purchase on the open market, how many of these militant rancher types could afford to purchase significant acreage at fair market prices?
> 
> The answer is very few to none of them, thus we hear their rhetoric to "confiscate" the land without purchase.
> 
> The people that can afford to buy the land would be wealthy out-of-staters, real estate investors, large businesses, foreign entities like the Chinese, and, just for you, maybe the LDS church will buy some too. Regular folks in the 435 will not/can not afford it and will be the ultimate losers because they depend so much on public lands for their recreation and it will rapidly be lost to them as the No trespassing signs go up.


They will try to secure low interest loans through the dept of agriculture. 
The apply for land to remain in green belt tax codes so no property tax is assessed or at least lowered. 
But if this land was available to purchase I can guaranteed hat nobody will be able to out bid Deseret. And the church will legally own this state.


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## Hoopermat

PBH said:


> Just those that have been saving their dry-land alfalfa subsidy checks!
> Rememeber: Major Major's father was very good at not growing alfalfa. The more alfalfa he did not grow, the more money the government would pay him to not grow alfalfa so that he could purchase more land to not grow alflafa.
> 
> I still can't figure out why these white ranchers think that land is theirs. If we're going to turn over that land to anyone, it should go to the Piute Tribe.


Why does it matter what color the ranchers are. What if they are brown


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## #1DEER 1-I

FBI video of the shooting:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...deo-shooting-death-oregon-protester/79490322/


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## Hoopermat

I don't know if you guys have seen this yet
Footage of the shooting.


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## DallanC

WOW... that officer dang near got killed when the dodge drove off the road into the snow.

-DallanC


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## Hoopermat

DallanC said:


> WOW... that officer dang near got killed when the dodge drove off the road into the snow.
> 
> -DallanC


Yeah he jumped in front of it which was strange


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## wyogoob

Testing, testing, 1-2-3

Ground Control to Major Tom

.


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## Hoopermat

Now I do not agree with the buddy clan. And I am not on their side as far as this whole occupation idea. I have watched this video many times and done some other observations. 
The man that was shot. Is right handed. Is known to carry a revolver in a holster on his right hip. Has his coat zipped up. And is walking in deep snow with his hands up. 

From what I can see hear he is walking with his hands up toward the officer in front of him. You can see he struggles in the snow a little. He doesn't know the officer is behind him. Then all of a sudden he grabs at his left side. With no audio you don't know. But it looks like the officer behind him has shot him in the left side of his body and he is cringing and that's why his hand moves there. I would go on but its point less. 
If I don't see evidence from another angle to disprove this. and I don't see a threating move on his parts. At this point he knows he has 10+ guns on him. 

I call this MURDER


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## Springville Shooter

At this point, I'll just call it really sad. The video proved nothing definitive either way in my mind.-------SS


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## #1DEER 1-I

With this video it is hard to tell. A body cam with sound would be more definitive. Making a split second decision as an officer would be very hard, and with no sound and such a far picture, there is no real way to tell. You have to think they were yelling to get down. Better footage is needed, hopefully there is a body cam that has audio to determine better what happened. If he was reaching into his pockets and being told to get down, it's justified, if he truly was shot once in the side and was grabbing his wound, it's not justified. It's impossibly to tell with no audio or a better view. The situation was escalated by the fact he fled from being pulled over, he said prior he was willing to die before going to jail, and then what exactly happens in this video is left to interpretation until better footage with audio is available.


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## Airborne

Springville Shooter said:


> At this point, I'll just call it really sad. The video proved nothing definitive either way in my mind.-------SS


Exactly--to call this murder without any additional evidence shows a lack of judgement and maturity. Springville Shooter would make a good juror, some of our other forum members--um...not so much


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## mikevanwilder

This video leaves alot of questions, but I'm leaning toward the Law Enforcement side of things. You have a guy who has already made threats to law enforcement and they know he's armed. Then he takes off after being pulled over the first time. When his vehicle becomes stuck he jumps out of the vehicle yeah with his hands up but he should of just stayed in the vehicle until told to exit.
From the video it looks as though he reached into his jacket prior to being shot. You can clearly tell when he was hit the first time. He hunch up pretty hard when he's hit. 
Now this is just my observations and I would like more evidence but that's what I see.


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## GaryFish

The video shows enough to validate your opinion - whatever it is. More info is needed to determine anything.


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## macanudo

*LEOs*

I would sure hate to be put int the position the law enforcement officers were in. I feel for the guy that pulled the trigger. Pretty tough situation.


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## gdog

Finicum could be alive today if he had made different choices.....which I'm sure his family and friends now wish he had.


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## bekins24

I think LEOs might have one of the hardest jobs out there with the split decisions that they have to make. To me it looks like Finicum was reaching to his jacket a couple of times which seem kind of sketchy. If Finicum would have pulled a gun and shot an officer, there would be two people dead, then there would be those who would say the officers didn't react fast enough and the officer didn't have to die. I think the LEO did was was right in this case.


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## bowgy

Talked to a friend of mine that works for the BLM, sounds like they are all staying in their office this week. At least in Southern Utah


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## #1DEER 1-I

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...bi-closes-in-on-last-oregon-refuge-occupiers/

Looks like they are done playing around with the Bundy family. Cliven was arrested in Oregon. The remaining 4 occupiers say they will turn themselves in today after the FBI surrounded them last night. Now go get his cattle off our public land, and hold everyone accountable.


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## wyogoob

Looks like it's over for now, without anyone getting hurt:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fi...-negotiations/ar-BBpngGv?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp

I hope something good comes from all of this. Frankly I'm mad as hell that this thing took place during quail season. What were those people thinking?


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## GaryFish

wyogoob said:


> Looks like it's over for now, without anyone getting hurt:
> http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fi...-negotiations/ar-BBpngGv?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=iehp
> 
> I hope something good comes from all of this. Frankly I'm mad as hell that this thing took place during quail season. What were those people *thinking*?


That's funny stuff right there Goob.


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## wyogoob

GaryFish said:


> That's funny stuff right there Goob.


Yeah, yeah. Ya know, I work with people that have been sending those "Defenders of the Constitution" food. I gave one of those thoughtful Constitutional Conservatives, a workmate of mine from Montana, a bunch a biltong. I'm wondering if he sent those four people hanging out at Malheur some of it.

Anyway listen Gary, my pocket version of the US Constitution says I can go quail hunting in Oregon any time I want. My next job is in Oregon; Newport. I'm thinking of just driving over, taking Route 20.


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## Catherder

wyogoob said:


> Yeah, yeah. Ya know, I work with people that have been sending those "Defenders of the Constitution" food. I gave one of those thoughtful Constitutional Conservatives, a workmate of mine from Montana, a bunch a biltong. I'm wondering if he sent those four people hanging out at Malheur some of it.
> 
> Anyway listen Gary, my pocket version of the US Constitution says I can go quail hunting in Oregon any time I want. My next job is in Oregon; Newport. I'm thinking of just driving over, taking Route 20.


Maybe it gave the holdouts indigestion and they finally buckled. Perhaps you are a hero!

As for Newport, wouldn't you rather go salmon fishing?


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## Badin

wyogoob said:


> Yeah, yeah. Ya know, I work with people that have been sending those "Defenders of the Constitution" food. I gave one of those thoughtful Constitutional Conservatives, a workmate of mine from Montana, a bunch a biltong. I'm wondering if he sent those four people hanging out at Malheur some of it.
> 
> Anyway listen Gary, my pocket version of the US Constitution says I can go quail hunting in Oregon any time I want. My next job is in Oregon; Newport. I'm thinking of just driving over, taking Route 20.


Mountain quail, coastal cutthroats, steelhead, Roosevelt elk, black tails, and rain. No sage brush or nut job welfare ranchers.


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## wyogoob

*ah poop*

Another lesson to be learned from all of this: If you're gonna takeover a government wildlife refuge bring a coupla porta-pottys with you.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/17/us/oregon-standoff-investigation/


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## Bax*

What a bunch of yahoos


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## wyogoob

*Bird Festival is a go in Harney County*

Although the "Defenders of the Constitution" kinda put a hurt on winter bird watching and late bird hunting activities at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, the 35th annual Harney County Bird Festival will proceed as scheduled.....we hope.

http://www.migratorybirdfestival.com/

God Bless America.


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