# Sharp tailed grouse



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Do you ever think well see expansion of this bird in our state again ?


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

....no


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

gdog said:


> ....no


 pretty much sums it up


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

Why doesn't the DWR have breeding programs for the threatened and the decreasing populations of native birds like the sage and the sharptailed grouse? They do it for the pheasant in what seems to be very half hearted attempts to grow the wild populations. Why not do it for birds which are native and have a better chance of building populations?


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm sure someone sharper than me can say for sure but I believe it is very difficult or maybe even impossible to raise grouse in pens.


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

The DWR has made efforts to understand what is happening to the grouse. I volunteered with a group of BYU students that were doing a study on the effects of predator control on the grouse population 'near' strawberry res. I am not sure of the final results of the study but according to the students the fox in the area were having a major impact on the population. 

If I remember correctly they had transplanted birds(which would validate what Bret said) in an effort to increase their numbers and reestablish a population but the fox were taking out the majority of the young.


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

Interesting. Didn't know predator control was needed so badly.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

goonsquad said:


> They do it for the pheasant in what seems to be very half hearted attempts to grow the wild populations. Why not do it for birds which are native and have a better chance of building populations?


I don't believe the pheasant stocking program is done intended to actually grow the wild population. It's more like stocking fish for put and take. The survival rate for pen raised birds released to wild is extremely low...

Here's some info: http://www.pheasantsforever.org/page/1/stocking.jsp

I would think the biggest challenge/obstacle is straight up loss of habitat.


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

gdog said:


> I don't believe the pheasant stocking program is done intended to actually grow the wild population. It's more like stocking fish for put and take. The survival rate for pen raised birds released to wild is extremely low...
> 
> Here's some info: http://www.pheasantsforever.org/page/1/stocking.jsp
> 
> I would think the biggest challenge/obstacle is straight up loss of habitat.


Yeah I get that, but maybe that is the underlying problem with our states management programs. Seems rather short sighted.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Mountain Time said:


> The DWR has made efforts to understand what is happening to the grouse. I volunteered with a group of BYU students that were doing a study on the effects of predator control on the grouse population 'near' strawberry res. I am not sure of the final results of the study but according to the students the fox in the area were having a major impact on the population.
> 
> If I remember correctly they had transplanted birds(which would validate what Bret said) in an effort to increase their numbers and reestablish a population but the fox were taking out the majority of the young.


It was buzzards, then crows and ravens, and now foxes. Much of the implications made in the fox predation theory have been shot down in peer review.

Yes, foxes eat sage grouse, as do hawks, ravens, cows, etc. But you know what helps drive fox numbers? Decreasing coyote numbers.

And all of these things have been around for a very long time. Considering that the last 40 years of predator theory does not hold water when applied to big game, it will be no surprise when it doesn't add up in regard to sage grouse either.

Raising grouse in pens is almost impossible, I have rehabbed several. You can't just feed them processed grain like a lot of other birds. It takes greens and insects.

The problem with sage grouse is related to habitat, like with most other wildlife.


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

*Sharpies*

I believe DWR has had plans for 7-10 years to trap and transplant Sharpies south clear to Levan ridge...Why they haven't I dont know. To many donut shops in between I guess;-)


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

gpskid said:


> I believe DWR has had plans for 7-10 years to trap and transplant Sharpies south clear to Levan ridge...Why they haven't I dont know. To many donut shops in between I guess;-)


Not that simple. Just transplanting them won't do any good if they don't survive.

I have watched Sharp tails expand into Southern Cache county, and into Weber from Cache and Morgan counties, several times over the last 20
+ years. These expansions always follow increases in sage grouse, and the subsequent declines have followed the course of sage grouse as well.

One of the largest declines of both that I have seen involved the release of Hungarian partridge in the area. Both populations crashed in one year.

Same thing happens when you release pen raised chukars, into areas that have wild chukars. The wild chukar populations crash.

Not that this is the ultimate problem with sharp tails, but just like with deer and bighorn sheep, shuffling animals all over is not going to fix anything.


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

*Sharpies*

You have to try first , birds go in cycles
DWR said that about turkeys back in 1986.
If you don't try, give some effort its not going to happen.
They moved sharpies to Antelope Island to establish a population to transplant to other parts of the state.
As with the turkey, NWTF found out years ago, penraised birds did not establish birds in an area, only wild trapped can do that.
Sage grouse, huns have nothing to with establishing populations.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

gpskid said:


> You have to try first , birds go in cycles
> DWR said that about turkeys back in 1986.
> If you don't try, give some effort its not going to happen.
> They moved sharpies to Antelope Island to establish a population to transplant to other parts of the state.
> ...


 I'm not saying it can't be done, but until we solve the problems that suppress numbers, moving animals all over is just that, and may have unintended consequences. Birds cycle, but the long term trend is down. And that is the bigger problem at hand.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

So sage grouse and sharp tail grouse have declined similarly to big game over the last 20 years. Read this: http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/mo...grouse-conservation/nevada_fire_planning.html And keep in mind the use of herbicides. Then look here: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/education/ To see the implications of herbicides/insecticides on big game animals. Then take a look at this: http://www.aviangenetics.com/Sage-Grouse_Genetic_Disorders/ And keep in mind that epigenetics has not been ruled out in these "disorders", many of which are very similar to malformations seen in big game, specifically malformed bites. Many latent effects of pesticide exposure express epigenetically.

Until some folks stop trying to "help", the trend downward will continue.


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

*Sharptail*

I thought we were talking sharpies on this topic.
Interesting information though, but waiting for another study from some school boy is a waste of time, doesn't take a scientist to figure it out.
Sharptail and sagegrouse are totally different habitat, these burned off has made new habitat for sharptail and yes has affected sagegrouse habitat.
There's still more sage grouse in Utah than there's ever been.
Sagegrouse were successfully introduced back in the Strawberry valley after over hunting, trapped from Parker mountains.
DWR needs to do the same for Sharptail.

If we followed BLM plans and DWR Deer plan we would not have the chukar that we do now, their plan is to rid the land of invasive cheatgrasses, so the choice is non-native species that are doing good like chukar and valley quail and live with the habitat we have now.

Thanks for you comments


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

You missed it entirely. 

There are not more sage grouse than there has ever been in Utah. 20 years ago we busted up coveys of 100 birds, you don't see a fraction of that today. They are looking at putting them on the endangered species list as soon as next year.

The burned off areas, are treated with herbicides prior to reseeding. You can put all the birds in that habitat you want, they won't do well. Besides you need more than just grass for sharp tails, they need brush as well. 

Wildlife is a product of its environment. 

Have at it kid, it may not take a scientist, but it does require some one that knows something about grouse.


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

*Sharptail*

I think you missed it
Looking at the sage grouse count this august was the best ever.
I've seen over 500 in several areas, maybe you should get out .
Its the BLM and forest service spraying that crap thats killing thing off.
I've hunted 34 years now, there's more upland birds than ever.
(but it does require some one that knows something) 
Thats what DWR said about Turkey in 1985, after unsuccessfully releasing the wrong species of turkeys since 1952, it took one man from the DWR that finally got it right. Now look where we are with wild turkeys.

You would be surprised where sagegrouse are in this state, and nowhere near extinction like other states.
Listing them is just a bogus attempt from tree huggers to stop exploration in areas of Wyoming and other states.

Lonetree, Its people like you that held up the turkey tranplant program also.
The trap and transplant of sharptail could happen if not for negative impact from school boys.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

:mrgreen: I was way too cool for school.

I'm not saying transplants can't work. But just like with a lot of big game, until you fix the problems on the ground, you are not going to expand ranges.

If you think there are more upland birds now, than there were 34 years ago, you did not get out 34 years ago. It is nothing like it used to be.

The UDWR along with the BLM and FS spray herbicides, directly on sage grouse habitat. An excerpt from this: http://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/sagr_statusrpt01.pdf

"Habitat experiments are underway to assess the effectiveness of using the  Dixie Harrow, Lawson Pasture Aerator and Tebuthiuron to increase the abundance and diversity of the herbaceous understory within the sagebrush community."

Tebuthiuron is a sulfonylurea herbicide: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/sulfonylureas/ It is a broad spectrum herbicide, and therefor can not create diversity. It causes declines in big game animals.

Declining sage grouse, you don't have to take it from me.
https://wildlife.utah.gov/uplandgame/sage-grouse/pdf/gsgfaq.pdf


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

*Sharpies*

Wrong , I first hunted birds 47 years ago, my first sagegrouse and chukar was 34 years ago, I hunted sage grouse when the limit was 3 a day, 6 possesion.
The DWR Sagegrouse plan doesn't show a decline, again its a fact there are more in those area's except maybe the north. The problem with northern area has been allowing private reserves to open in sensitive areas, which I feel was a big, big mistake.
I don't agree with the spraying.
I do think this topic was about introduction of sharptail in new areas which a local DWR biologist has talked of plans for 7-10 years, my questions from the beginning was what are we waiting for ?
Lonetree, I appreciate your comments and information, all good.
We all want more birds to hunt
Thanks gpskid


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Yes, we do want more birds, no doubt about it. 

I'm going to be stubborn, sage grouse are in decline in Utah, and the DWR plan does say that. As for the North, Box Edler county is one of the places considered "stable", meaning 500+ pairs of breeding birds. And they are nothing like they use to be there, and that is a "stable" area. I'd be there right now with my grouse tags in hand, if not for this epic rain. 

Here is my argument, it is the same on a lot of things. We would not be looking at transplanting sharp tails, if they too, were not in decline, or had not already declined. There are a lot of reasons why they have declined, and have continued to decline. Until we fix those problems, moving birds around won't get us any more birds. And that is not to say that we should not do transplants, it says we need to address the bigger problems first, to have successful transplants.

What is the DWR waiting for? I don't know.

And believe me, I'm not the kind of guy to stand in the way of some one like the DWR biologist you mentioned that got the turkey introductions right. Quite contrary, I am very much that lone voice.


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