# LE turkey hunting Please read!!! Important!



## BPturkeys

Fellow Utah turkey hunters, as you may or may not know, the DWR has for the last two or three years taken a hard stance in support of maintaining our unprecedented split turkey season...a limited entry hunt and a general season hunt. Evan after promising to do away with the limited entry season after a couple years of "getting used to and easing into" a more normal and nationally excepted practice of a single, general season hunt, open to all hunters. This battle to normalize Utah's turkey hunting has now reached a point where a possible final decision is going to be made on this issue.

During our last round of RAC meetings, the topic was discussed at all the RAC regions with one RAC (Northern Region) recommending the elimination of the Limited Entry hunt and the other RAC's divided only because of a lack of a strong spokesperson representing our cause. 
We now have that spokesperson on our side. Mr. Jim Gaskill, is well respected and well known though out the DWR. Mr. Gaskill has served as chairman of the Upland Game Committee and is currently serving on the Northern RAC. A strong supporter of upland game hunting and backed by a Master degree in ornithology, he can represent our cause with both eloquence and knowledge. Mr Gaskill, with a little support from us, has a real shot at putting an end to the Limited Entry Turkey hunt in Utah and granting all turkey hunters an opportunity to hunt under a system that has been proven over and over as proper and good all across the United States.

Here is a copy of a email Mr. Gaskill is sending all Wildlife Board Members explaining our argument, also, Mr. Gaskill will be in attendance at the up and coming board meeting this Thursday and will plead our case in person.

Read his letter and read what the DWR has said in past RAC meetings for yourself.

*What MR. Gaskill needs is our support! Cut and paste this letter and forward it to all the board members with the attached note giving your personal support to this cause, and try and attend the board meeting as a show of support for the cause. Together we can really win this fight.*

*Cut and paste the following email and send it to all the board members:* [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
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Dear wildlife board member,
This letter is to show my support for all the recommendations presented by Mr. Jim Gaskill. Please vote to eliminate this dual hunt system and give all Utah turkey hunters the chance to hunt turkeys with equal opportunity.
Thank You,
Your Name
Your phone number(optional)

Dear Wildlife board members,
I am writing to ask that you consider a change to the proposed turkey hunting regulations. First, let me congratulate the Utah DWR for a spectacular success in managing the wild turkey in Utah. In just a few decades we have gone from virtually no turkeys to a healthy and growing population. It is a tribute to hardworking biologists and many volunteers. 
Thank you for considering this option and thank you very much for the time and effort you devote to the betterment of wildlife in Utah. 
James Gaskill, South Weber, Utah

My primary issue is with the current turkey regulations. I am very much opposed to the limited entry turkey season. I strongly suggest that we do away with it and simply open the state to general season hunting from the second Saturday of April to May 31. That is what most states do and it works well.
First I will review a little history. In 2009, the DWR decided that it was time to increase the opportunities to hunt wild turkeys in Utah. Prior to that, several different hunting scenarios had been tried; mostly limited entry drawing. But now the population seemed to be healthy enough to have a general hunt with over the counter tags. Biologically everything was fine, but some people expressed concern that such a drastic change might not be accepted. A compromise was worked out that combined an early season region by region limited entry hunt, followed by a statewide unlimited over the counter hunt. This was never supposed to be a permanent solution; just a way to ease into a statewide hunt. This was confirmed in the NRRAC discussion involving Dave Olsen (then the Upland Game coordinator) and RAC members in 2009. Then in 2011, Justin Dolling, who was then the Upland coordinator, repeated those sentiments and said that we just needed to wait until we had more data to support the change. (I have included transcripts from the May 2009 and 2011 NRRAC minutes at the end of this letter)
Well, the data are in and they support going to a full over the counter hunt. It is time to implement our original plan.

Reasons for eliminating limited entry turkey hunt: 
1. It serves no biological purpose. It does not make a healthier or superior resource. Everyone agrees to this point. 
2. It gives a distinct advantage to the lucky few who draw out. (33% success in the early season vs. 18% in the general season) We were assured at the beginning of this process that this would not be the case. 
3. It is unlike any other hunt. In other limited hunts, small areas are set aside. This is the only example in which the whole state is closed to the general hunter and then opened up afterwards. The whole state is open to turkey hunting from mid-April to the end of May, but the unfortunate general season hunter misses out on the prime early weeks. There are no waiting periods. 
4. 4. It creates a distinct disadvantage for general season hunters. The turkeys are spooked; vegetation is leafier; turkeys are more spread out as snow has melted from summer range, toms are less likely to respond to calls.
5. It does not generate any additional revenue, except from application fees, that pay for the drawing process. The cost for any type of turkey permit is the same. 
6. It reduces the number of days available for hunting for both limited entry and general season hunters, versus opening a general season in mid-April and closing on May 31.
7. It creates more law enforcement issues. Conservation officers must monitor units to make sure hunters are in the proper areas with the appropriate tags. 
8. It is just another elitist idea. Some hunters have said that it gives them an opportunity to have a "quality", undisturbed experience. I say walk a little father, hunt after opening day, and you will be unlikely to be bothered by many other hunters. 
9. It does not even achieve its original goal. Now we are hearing that limited entry hunters do not even feel undisturbed. As Jason Robinson stated in his info-blurb, "Hunters consistently tell us they feel less crowded during the general hunt, even though more hunters are in the field," Robinson says. 
10. It may very well increase hunter pressure by having two opening day rushes. 
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RAC COMMENTS (TAKEN FROM OFFICIAL MINUTES)
May 2009
Leonard- Appreciation to the Division for the progress in the turkey management. Allow hunters to disperse themselves by giving time and area. Opportunity is more important than success rate.
Gaskill- Concerned that we have limited the potential for success. Recommend that we find a way to give over the counter hunters a better chance to get a bird.
Lawrence- Commend Division and Federation.
Leonard- Success rate in early spring is generally attributed to young birds that have not been hunted and do not have instincts.
Gaskill- I think if we approve this proposal as it stands, I would like to see some numbers to verify what Jon thinks. We need to make some adjustments because we are limiting the amount of hunters for limited entry.
Byrnes- In next year's survey, hopefully you will have the harvest split out for limited entry and over the counter?
Olsen- We will not be able to take limited entry as it has been for individual units but it will be more on a county basis.
Leonard- Based on limited entry hunts and big game; we have evolved into some culture of limited entry as equated equality. We do not see that same equality as turkey hunters. This was a compromise to give it a trial and hopefully see the numbers increase.
Byrnes- If we approve your presentation, will that be enough to include the transplant list?
Olsen- Yes.

May 2011
Gaskill- Explore reasoning behind the limited entry turkey hunts.
Dolling- You would like a synopsis of how we got there?
Gaskill- Yes.
Dolling- We have been hunting turkeys now under a limited entry followed by over the counter hunt structure for the last 2 years, we are in year 2 now. Prior to that, we had strictly a limited entry framework set up where we made recommendations based on populations at the unit level. So, we would issue permits at the unit level and that was strictly limited entry. The feeling was that at some point, we wanted to try and transition into eventually becoming over the counter with our turkey hunt program. The feeling was that we wanted to transition but not necessarily shock those folks that were enjoying those limited entry hunts so we set up a two tiered structure and that is the limited entry hunt followed by over the counter. We set upthose performance targets and will evaluate how well they did over the period of this experiment and decide whether we can transition totally into over the counter.
Gaskill- What is the biological reason for limited entry followed by over the counter as opposed to just over the counter followed by limited entry?
Dolling- It is a socially driven reason. The way we are hunting has very little impact on the population if any. It is primarily social why we are retaining those two hunt structures.
Gaskill- Isn't that giving a significant hunter advantage to the limited entry hunters?
Dolling- It depends on what year it is. I don't know that the limited entry hunters had any better success than our over the counter hunters based on the weather.
Gaskill- Do you have any data from last year? 
Dolling- I do. Last year, our hunter success was higher on the limited entry hunts than the over the counter hunts.
Gaskill- Percentage wise? What would have been the result had we just gone to over the counter?
Dolling- I don't dare venture a guess on that one.
Gaskill- What was our hunter success with limited entry?
Dolling- Limited entry ranged from about 30% all the way up to about 38%.
Gaskill- So, we killed 700-800 turkeys on limited entry?
Dolling- I could tell you exactly how many we killed.
Gaskill- An estimate is ok.
Dolling- Roughly, yes.
Gaskill- And we killed how manyduring the over the counter.
Dolling- Our hunter success for the over the counter was running about 15-16%. We had roughly over 10,000 hunters that participated.
Gaskill- Mathematically, even if the advantage is not considered, we would have had to have another 4,500 over the counter hunters to equal the number of turkeys taken. In effect, we are taking more turkeys with this program than we would if we eliminated limited entry unless we increase the number ofover the counter by 4,500.
Dolling- I am not following your logic there. Could you help me?
Gaskill- At 15-16% success with over the counter, if we are going to kill 800 more, we have to have significantly more hunters right?
Dolling- We actually harvested more turkeys in the over the counter portion of the hunt than the limited entry portion of the hunt.
Gaskill- We had 2,500 turkey hunters that drew and 10,000 over the counter.
Dolling- Right.
Gaskill- In order to increase the number of turkeys taken by the over the counter guys, we would have to have a whole lot more of them because the percentage success in limited entry is greater.
Dolling- I am still having trouble following your logic.
Gaskill- It is not logic, it is arithmetic.
Dolling- I don't know if that is our objective to increase harvest.
Gaskill- That is why I am asking why are we doing it?
Dolling- Why are we staying with these two hunt structures?
Gaskill- If we have a higher total harvest with this program than we would if we just went to straight over the counter, why are we doing it?
Dolling- We may or may not. Our harvest would be based on the success and if the success increased, then potentially we would harvest more with just over the counter. But it is not about harvest, we are only hunting the male component of the population so biologically, it does not influence the population. It is more of a social issue. It is strictly social whether you want to hunt them on limited entry structure or over the counter structure.
In the feeling by the committee was that we probably ought to ease turkey hunters into this program rather than just come out and shock them and go strictly over the counter.
Gaskill- Do we have hunter surveys to back that up or not?
Dolling- That was just the feeling of the committee that met and discussed this current structure that we are recommending.
Gaskill- O.K. I will let you off the hook.
RAC Comments and Questions
Gaskill- Limited entry turkey. It clearly is a social thing and, according to Justin, there is no biological reason for limited entry turkey hunt. It flies in the face of all our other limited entry hunts. I don't see the value of it.
Leonard- If we are working on a three year plan and this is a compromise that has worked out pretty well and is transitioning to over the counter eventually.
When the plan comes up for review after next year it will be looked at. It is very important with turkey hunting that we only take the males out of the population; I think that may be a problem with hunting with eagles.
Gaskill- We are working on a three year plan but what this guidebook does is make it a six year plan. We are not reviewing turkey regulations until 2013 which means 2014 when we implement them. We have essentially doubled
our little experiment which didn't have a good reason to start with. Now, we are just extending what I think is a bad idea.
Cowley- On the limited entry, how long of a break in period do you think is needed there? I understand Jim's question here.
Dolling- The committee settled on a three year period. The thing that is problematic is that we are hunting turkeys in year two as we speak and we will not have data for this particular hunt until well past the turkey season. We almost have to hunt turkeys for four years before we get three years worth of data. I don't think it will extend it for six years, I think what it will do is take it for five years. We would have a little bit of breathing room to actually sit down after the fourth year, have three years of data and bring this committee back together and have some discussions to see if things could be modified for the fifth year.
Gaskill- What data is going to be relevant?
Dolling- We would be looking for the three performance targets: hunter success with the limited entry and over the counter, crowding and hunter satisfaction.
Gaskill- Not biological data, just hunter satisfaction.
Dolling- Yes. Hunter success would kind of be biological.
Gaskill- But not really because it does not have effect on turkey population.

Many Thanks, BPturkeys


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## Skally

Emails sent, Thanks for the info BP


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## hawglips

Imagine how crowded your favorite spot will be in early season if UT opens up in April to general entry.....


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## Skally

My favorite spot was way more crowded on LE than it ever has been on general. The LE opened on a Saturday, and general on a Monday. I hunt a lot during the work week and very rarely see other people. I really don't think crowding is a legitimate reason to limit opportunity for everyone. End LE turkey hunting!


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## hawglips

Skally said:


> My favorite spot was way more crowded on LE than it ever has been on general. The LE opened on a Saturday, and general on a Monday. I hunt a lot during the work week and very rarely see other people. I really don't think crowding is a legitimate reason to limit opportunity for everyone. End LE turkey hunting!


Was general open on the first day of LE season in mid April? Watch and see what happens when instead of only 1/3 of the hunters being able to hunt opening day in mid April, ALL of them will be able to hunt....

Limited entry hunts are limited entry for a reason. In states with heavy hunting pressure like many of the southeastern states, limited entry tags are highly sought after in order to get some relief from dealing with the hoards. I'm not sure folks really want what they're asking for....


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## swbuckmaster

I like the way it is right now


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## Skally

hawglips said:


> Was general open on the first day of LE season in mid April? Watch and see what happens when instead of only 1/3 of the hunters being able to hunt opening day in mid April, ALL of them will be able to hunt....
> 
> Limited entry hunts are limited entry for a reason. In states with heavy hunting pressure like many of the southeastern states, limited entry tags are highly sought after in order to get some relief from dealing with the hoards. I'm not sure folks really want what they're asking for....


You're talking about one day. I personally would trade one day (opening day) for two full weeks in mid april.....


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## hawglips

Skally said:


> You're talking about one day. I personally would trade one day (opening day) for two full weeks in mid april.


I'm not talking about one day only. I'm just offering the perspective of someone that has dealt with it firsthand in other states. Everybody wants to get in and hunt early in the season before the birds get shot up and the perception is that the hunting is better. That's why folks want it discontinued. But what that will mean for UT if the LE is discontinued, is that you're going to see greatly increased crowds the first couple weeks of the season; and the quality of the early hunting is going to go down for most people. UT has limited turkey habitat and everybody knows where that habitat is. They are going to get hammered and hunter conflicts will increase, while the hunt quality will go down.


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## Airborne

I really don't mind the way it is now. The state makes money off of limited entry draw process and if you pony up the 10 bucks you get a chance at hunting a couple weeks before everyone else. The most important thing is that we now have a general season and everyone can hunt so I don't really see this as that big of an issue.

I do have a question concerning what happens to all of those LE Turkey points that people have bought? Will that money be refunded back to those point holders--I doubt it. I know a guy that has something like 6 or 7 points, he just like to collect points and is waiting for a year to hunt turkey that suits him. Are you going to say 'oh well' should have used them?

As for the gentleman above arguing for one season and stating that 2 seasons are not biologically driven--is any of our hunting biologically driven? All limited entry hunts are done to maximize trophy potential and that is what most hunters want, not for the benefit of the herd-->and ain't nobody calling on opening up the state for general OTC for biggame.


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## hawglips

Here's a couple of examples of what folks have to deal with in other states back east with general entry situations on opening day. 

I used to hunt one state where many of the "open" areas give out a limited number of daily quotas. So, in order to get in to hunt, folks start lining up at the check point office just after midnight. And then after the ranger shows up a few hours later and hands out the quotas, it's a mad dash to get to the area you were wanting to hunt before somebody else gets to your spot. It's crazy. 

There is another place down there where they give 200 quotas each day (~40,000 acres). You get in line at the gate in your car the night before if you want to make sure you get to your spot first. But at least they control the pressure somewhat.

In places without a limited number of quotas, it's a crap shoot. You never know if someone is going to be at your spot before you get there or not. And folks play all kinds of dirty tricks. The old "I roosted one here last night" lie is one of the most popular. They'll even use that one if you're taking a couple of kids with you, in an attempt to justify them moving in on you, or in an attempt to get you to leave if you got there first.

I used to have to remind my teenage boys not to get into any confrontations no matter what. Their first time hunting without me beside them there on opening day resulted in someone crawling down a ditch between them and the gobbling bird they were working and shooting it before it got to them. It's a circus of clowns carrying shotguns.

Your biggest concern does not become whether there are birds there are not, but whether you'll be able to hunt without other hunters interfering.

Limited entry tags are popular in those states for a reason. I could be totally wrong, but given Utah's reality, I suspect you'll see similar circumstances.


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## swbuckmaster

You hear people say turkeys only rut on the le hunt. You hear others say that's not so and they rut on both. 

So why screw up a good thing. If they rut on both let the ones that think le is the only way to go have their hunt. They get first crack at the birds so it may be worth the wait. 
Funny thing is the ones that say they rut on both are the ones wanting to do away with the le tags.

Most people wont hunt turkeys with the general tags for some reason and it became evident on my bear hunt. Saw loads of turkeys and no hunters. Good for me!

Leave it the way it is


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## Skally

hawglips said:


> Here's a couple of examples of what folks have to deal with in other states back east with general entry situations on opening day.
> 
> I used to hunt one state where many of the "open" areas give out a limited number of daily quotas. So, in order to get in to hunt, folks start lining up at the check point office just after midnight. And then after the ranger shows up a few hours later and hands out the quotas, it's a mad dash to get to the area you were wanting to hunt before somebody else gets to your spot. It's crazy.
> 
> There is another place down there where they give 200 quotas each day (~40,000 acres). You get in line at the gate in your car the night before if you want to make sure you get to your spot first. But at least they control the pressure somewhat.
> 
> In places without a limited number of quotas, it's a crap shoot. You never know if someone is going to be at your spot before you get there or not. And folks play all kinds of dirty tricks. The old "I roosted one here last night" lie is one of the most popular. They'll even use that one if you're taking a couple of kids with you, in an attempt to justify them moving in on you, or in an attempt to get you to leave if you got there first.
> 
> I used to have to remind my teenage boys not to get into any confrontations no matter what. Their first time hunting without me beside them there on opening day resulted in someone crawling down a ditch between them and the gobbling bird they were working and shooting it before it got to them. It's a circus of clowns carrying shotguns.
> 
> Your biggest concern does not become whether there are birds there are not, but whether you'll be able to hunt without other hunters interfering.
> 
> Limited entry tags are popular in those states for a reason. I could be totally wrong, but given Utah's reality, I suspect you'll see similar circumstances.


What states are you talking about? How much public hunting area is available in these states? How many tags are sold/ filled in these states? How long have these states had a general season? utahs situation is probably different in many aspects.


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## Skally

swbuckmaster said:


> You hear people say turkeys only rut on the le hunt. You hear others say that's not so and they rut on both.
> 
> So why screw up a good thing. If they rut on both let the ones that think le is the only way to go have their hunt. They get first crack at the birds so it may be worth the wait.
> Funny thing is the ones that say they rut on both are the ones wanting to do away with the le tags.
> 
> Most people wont hunt turkeys with the general tags for some reason and it became evident on my bear hunt. Saw loads of turkeys and no hunters. Good for me!
> 
> Leave it the way it is


Because those of us who believe they strut in both would like to be able to hunt during both. I've hunted both seasons and had success calling birds both seasons. All I want is more days in the woods that I have a chance to harvest a turkey. Clearly the current LE entry system limits those days no matter what hunt you choose.


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## gdog

I'll kill birds either way. I have had enough points the last 2 years to draw an LE turkey tag, but just bought an OTC with my kid....and sure enough we tagged out again. I actually like the later dates, so there's less snow at elevation.

I grew up back east and hunted turkey in NY & PA. No limited entry tags. You wanna talk pressure:shock:....but we still killed our birds with a little work.

Don't have time to look right now...but how many LE turkey tags were issued last year compared to total tags sold? Just not sure how big of an impact we are talking about in regards to hunters afield?


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## toasty

hawglips said:


> Limited entry tags are popular in those states for a reason. I could be totally wrong, but given Utah's reality, I suspect you'll see similar circumstances.


I respectfully disagree. By mid April we have thousands of birds scattered over millions of acres of public land. If you don't like to compete with the idiots on opening day, don't hunt on opening day or find one of the areas on one of the many mountain ranges south of the wasatch front and have plenty of space to yourself. With the elimination of LE hunts, every hunter has a choice in what they want to do, right now, you are either pinned down to 1/5 of the state for 2 weeks during peek breeding or statewide for 4 weeks after peek breeding. There is no biological reason we should have to make that choice. Statewide for 6 weeks give more and better opportunity to everyone, let people choose how they want to hunt. If we can handle 60,000 deer hunters on opening day, we have plenty of room for 6500 turkey hunters. No brainer IMO to get rid of LE turkey hunts.


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## toasty

gdog said:


> Don't have time to look right now...but how many LE turkey tags were issued last year compared to total tags sold? Just not sure how big of an impact we are talking about in regards to hunters afield?


From memory, about 1200 LE tags (30% success) and 5500 GS (15% success) tags for 2012. Could be off by a few hundred. Haven't seen the numbers for 2013. They keep holding onto LE hunts for $ and $ only. If you looked at the proposals for the RAC for this year, almost all turkey proposals were to increase the LE entry applications. I wish they could see a longer and better season will generate more revenue than limiting opportunity. Look long term, building up family traditions of turkey hunting like deer hunting will do a lot more to generate cash.


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## manysteps

I've never had the opportunity to play in the LE turkey... I put in for it once or twice, but never drew. Once I was able to play in the "general season" without having to draw a tag, I started hunting turkeys. (There was a limited "general" season before, it's only been unlimited for 2 seasons now... they had a limited OTC "general" for three years before that)

Obviously I'd like to hunt the turkeys when they're more responsive to calls, and I'm used to seeing pressure on the hunt... the walk in access I normally hunt gets pounded early in the season anyway, so I don't see how opening it up will make that any worse.

(Knowing the area, and the habits of the "lazy public", I say it'll only make my hunt better)

So, in the end, MY vote is to do away with the LE.

IF they choose to keep the LE season, I'd be okay with that if they'd AT LEAST let the LE hunters play during the general season. (I'd put in for that every day of the week) It's asinine that the guys who have to put in for 3 or 4 years to draw a tag only get a 2 week season. (and the reason I don't even bother to put in for it)


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## Bears Butt

Thanks BP! I sent my email to each of the Board members but it was my own twist, still supporting Mr Gaskills efforts and I have to side with Many Steps as well, if you have an LE tag and don't fill your tag, have that tag good to extend your hunt into the general season.

The Board NEEDS to end this split season...plain...and...simple!


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## goosefreak

I like the way it is now, I dont think anything needs to be changed, I'v been on both hunts and we've gabbled in and killed toms on both hunts. I think the way it is now is just fine because it does keep people from hunting all at once. come on people we've got to assume that more people are going to hunt more than opening day. what I see happening is over crowding, everyone wanting to get out for a few days in the spring to do some camping/fishing/hunting. once you start pressuring a bird, your done. they learn quick unless your hunting a farm bird. it doesn't seem logical to me to have 2-3 groups maybe several groups hunting the same groups of birds. its going to turn into the way the general deer hunt was where everybody and their dog was out, and nothing to be found. I say leave it alone!! if you want to hunt in april keep putting it! if you dont draw? learn the ropes of the general season, you'll find out that its actually a good hunt! why fix something that isn't broken??


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## Skally

It is broken. I want to hunt mid April but also want more than a 13 day hunt.


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## goosefreak

and I want a million dollars! I want to put in for elk every year instead of waiting 5 years, and the list goes on. I respect your wants, but I don't think that means accommodating everybody's wants just because people want to construct a dream hunt, if thats the case i'd rather start by changing LE Archery Elk to mid-september, instead of mid August ya know what I mean? I'll tell you what if they keep the system the same, I'll take you on a guided turkey hunt..


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## goosefreak

Although what i'd really like is about a 60,000 acre big game ranch! that'd do!


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## manysteps

I'll side with what I like, and that is to have it open to all for the WHOLE season, and I'll stick to that... as long as I can hunt, I'm a happy guy. (I just like hunting turkeys and if that means some "elite" get to hunt before me... call me a honey badger because at the end of the day, I don't give a ****!")


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## hawglips

manysteps said:


> ... the walk in access I normally hunt gets pounded early in the season anyway, so I don't see how opening it up will make that any worse.


It's just a matter of mathematics. There will be triple the number of excited folks who can't wait to get out there after turkeys, with tags in hand.


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## hawglips

toasty said:


> I respectfully disagree. By mid April we have thousands of birds scattered over millions of acres of public land. If you don't like to compete with the idiots on opening day, don't hunt on opening day or find one of the areas on one of the many mountain ranges south of the wasatch front and have plenty of space to yourself.


It'll be interesting to see how it pans out. I don't see how opening it up to 3 times the number of hunters at the front end of the season is not going to totally change the experience for hunters during the front end of the season. The math just doesn't seem like it is in the hunters' favor to me. Utah has a lot of land, but only a fraction of it actually has turkeys. And a big portion of it is still unreachable in April due to the snow still on the mountains. Utah has almost as many turkey hunters as she has legal turkeys to kill.

I may be wrong, but I suspect there will be a big increase in "wo is me" stories here about dealing with the shotgun and turkey call carrying hoards the first two weeks of the season.

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'm just offering a voice of warning about what typically happens when you open things up to everybody from day one. Expecting all those extra hunters not to be trying to kill the same turkeys you are the first part of the season is like expecting a crack head to wait a couple weeks for his next hit.


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## utahgolf

I'd be all for LE turkey hunting, but I like women.


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## BPturkeys

So, I guess hawglips, if over crowding is the problem, it would be fine with you if we had the LE in May and the general season in April...care to answer that?..I suspect not. Next year when you go wherever it is that you guide, try telling your customers "sorry, you can't go hunting during the prime time this year because there are a few lucky guys that need to go hunting first, oh, but you can go after the birds have been thinned out and the mating lust has started to wane and the vegetation is starting to get long and thick and the flocks are spread out over a much larger area and, of course, the birds will by much wiser since they been chased for a couple weeks...then we can go hunting...oh, but wait...I forgot to mention, you also have to wait a couple more days until after the youth hunt while thousands of more hunters give the birds a whirl...then you can go hunting, hope that isn't too big of an inconvenience?"


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## hawglips

BPturkeys said:


> So, I guess hawglips, if over crowding is the problem, it would be fine with you if we had the LE in May and the general season in April...care to answer that?..I suspect not.


Sure.

Seems to me that scenario would give you the same overcrowding early in the season that opening it up for everyone all the way till the end will give you. Because very few will put in for an LE in May. Most everybody is chomping at the bit to get after them - and if it's open in April, they will be going in April if they can.



BPturkeys said:


> Next year when you go wherever it is that you guide, try telling your customers "sorry, you can't go hunting during the prime time this year because there are a few lucky guys that need to go hunting first, oh, but you can go after the birds have been thinned out and the mating lust has started to wane and the vegetation is starting to get long and thick and the flocks are spread out over a much larger area and, of course, the birds will by much wiser since they been chased for a couple weeks...then we can go hunting...oh, but wait...I forgot to mention, you also have to wait a couple more days until after the youth hunt while thousands of more hunters give the birds a whirl...then you can go hunting, hope that isn't too big of an inconvenience?"


BP, I have never guided for pay. I didn't realize you were speaking from the perspective of a business. Sorry, I hadn't considered the guiding angle. I guess I would want to be able to take people out the whole season if I were a guide. I've just been assuming everybody here just has one tag to fill and was wanting a quality hunt for themselves and maybe their family members. But that won't change the early season crowding issue that even guides will have to deal with if the limited entry goes away.

As for some of the other points, I think the spring gobbler hunting actually gets better when the flocks are spread out and the toms are out and about looking for hens. Many state agencies use peak gobbling studies and hatch surveys etc to come up with the optimal time to open the season. And the point where most hens are on the nest and the toms are spreading out looking for hens is the point where many states try to set the opening of their turkey season - to make it easier for the hunters, and safer for hens. I don't think Utah considers this, but many states do.

I'm used to hunting after green-out and that doesn't effect things to me, or hunting success, as far as I can tell. Nor does waiting on the youth, as I'm accustomed to a week-long youth season before adults can hunt at all. And here in NC where I live, my favorite time to hunt is actually 10-15 days after the season opens - because it just seems like the birds work better then, year in and year out. But like everybody else, regardless of all that, when the season opens up, I'll be out there, if I can.


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## Skally

What day does the season start in NC?


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## hawglips

Skally said:


> What day does the season start in NC?


The second Saturday in April. Virginia opens the same day.


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## swbuckmaster

Someone mentioned 1200 le tags and 5600 general tags. 

Most of the public forest service land is locked up and you can't access it when the le turkey hunt is going on unless its on foot. At that time the birds are also more concentrated at lower elevations. I would rather see less hunters hunting consentrated birds at l owere elevations. When the snow melts turkeys disperse and follow the snow up. This is when the gates start to open up on the forest service land. Makes sense then to allow more hunters hunting dispersed birds in a larger area. 

Another reason its a bad idea to change the system imho.


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## Fowlmouth

LE Turkey hunting is gay! Open it up to general season....hell have a spring and fall hunt. Oh wait the SFW won't have any tags to auction off....-O,-


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## Kwalk3

I hunted the general season this year and two of the guys that I scouted and hunted with both killed birds. There was, however, a lot of scouting and work involved. In one of the areas I hunted(both are about 5 miles from one another) I saw more hunters(3) during the LE season than the general(0). In the other area I saw a grand total of 1 hunter on the first saturday of the general hunt, and I was up there between 2-5 days a week during the hunt.

Driving access and snow don't really ever change in these areas, but they are by no means remote.

What I did notice, as I did much more scouting for my hunt during the LE hunt, was that the birds were much more consistently strutting, gobbling for longer during the day and displaying mating behavior. The General hunt was not without excitement as I missed a bird at 30 yards with my bow, but from the end of the LE hunt to the end of the general, there was a serious and constant decline in activity throughout, and the bird that I shot at was not actively gobbling or displaying any of that type of behavior, just dumb luck and knowing the areas they like, more like deer hunting..

If I have to put in for the LE to hunt early then I will, but if it is strictly a crowding issue, I think its just a front for us to possibly not be able to hunt our favorite spot first thing opening morning. There are a lot more turkeys in a lot more area(even early season) than I think most of the hunting public thinks. I still talk to people who dont think we have Turkeys here in good numbers.


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## BPturkeys

Well, HL's what about having the LE in May...you "quality" hunt guys would still have your "not so crowded" time to hunt, right?...ya , just what I suspected, you wouldn't respond to that. 
Oh and as to other states opening days...please name one state that start their hunts other than sometime in the first three weeks of April, with the VAST majority starting right around the 15th of Arpil. 

It is just this simple... the Limited Entry hunt does only one thing...limits the opportunity for hunters to hunt turkeys in the prime turkey hunting time...period!

The real reason and objective to have LE hunts is to create a product...the limited entry permit itself...that has a market value so guides and conservation groups can capitalize on them. It has nothing to do with providing a "quality hunt" for anyone. There is no value in a product that is unlimited in quantity. You can't say "come to my convention and win a general season turkey permit". Most people won't hire guides for hunts that they have't just spent a fortune to go on. 

There is none, notta, no biological reasons for a LE hunt.

Hawglips, you even said yourself that there is good hunting after a week or so after the opening when the crowds thin down...why make the majority of hunters wait...just open the season up and give all the hunters more time to pick those few days they can work a hunt in. Forcing them to schedule their hunts sometime within a 4 week period instead of a 7 week period is a major cause of the very crowding you disdain.


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## goofy elk

Absolutly FINE the way it is----Leave it alone IMO...


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## swbuckmaster

Last thing I want to see is 5600 bird hunters driving over and arround forest service gates early in the season because the lower turkey ground is crowded.


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## swbuckmaster

I have four points for le turkey and I may never use them because of the easy general hunt with no people. It seriously is a good thing we have. 

I also like the youth hunt the way it is.


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## Kwalk3

Like I said, I guess we all hunt different areas and have different experiences. I hunted hard for 1 shot. Part of that is me not knowing what I was doing early on, part of it I think can be attributed to the timing. No crowding issues. Even so, I think we are fooling ourselves thinking that more people care about turkeys than actually do. I realize you can still kill birds during the general, but the experience is not the same as in the early season, at least not from the activity I saw. I don't think that experience should be limited to just a few every year.

I will put in for LE if I have to but it would be nice to be able to hunt prime time every year. Not that worried about crowds. We have a lot of birds in a lot of accessible public area, even in the early season.

The most troubling issue I see is that there was supposed to be an agreed upon transition to solely general hunting, whether we support one side or the other. it doesnt appear as if that transition is happening, or at least not very fast. What's the point of saying something or implementing a plan, and not sticking to it? Aside from biological reasoning, which has been established, doesn't really apply to this particular debate. IMO there shouldn't be a debate here.


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## goosefreak

sure, what the hey! lets do it. open it up lets get people to get their jitters out about it, then in 3-4 years we can all get back on here and bone and mitch about how everyone's taking there spot, cant find turkeys, I called at a turkey and he ran the other way. you all do know thats what will happen who are we kidding.


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## wasatchwillie

Leave it as it is! Theres no reason to change it for everyone to benefit a few! This is crazy!


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## Kwalk3

Wasatchwillie, I think you have it backwards. It currently benefits the few when it could benefit everyone. 👍


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## swbuckmaster

It benifits the few that want to wait in line a few years to hunt them at the prime time and allows the ones that still want to hunt the ability to hunt. Its a win win.


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## Kwalk3

We don't have to agree on this. We hunt different areas I'm sure. I don't see the crowding issues, but I also try to avoid people by the area I hunt, not the time. I can see both sides, I just personally would prefer it to all be one season. Not saying I'm absolutely right in every instance in every area of the state, just saying what I world prefer based on my experience.


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## swbuckmaster

I understand all we can do is express our own personal experience. No one is right or wrong


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## manysteps

I can see the argument from those that prefer hunting the LE season because they don't want an extra 5000 hunters in the field.

For those of us that hunt the general season--because we don't want to spend an extra 10 bucks for a tag we "might" get (not to mention having a four week shorter season in CRAPPIER weather)--an extra 1500 hunters is no big deal.

No matter what the case is, just like the deer hunt, people are stupid and LAZY.

My favorite spot is open to anyone who wants to play there, but it's 1/2 mile from the road, and the terrain is pretty **** steep... so I end up with it pretty much to myself.

The first day or three of the hunt there are people that stomp through the area, but they don't even wake up early enough in the morning to be there before the birds have left the roost. (by then I've either filled my tag, or I've moved on to spot and stalk somewhere else to keep the pressure as low as I can on my favorite roost spot)

So, I say bring it on! What's that gonna do to "my" spot? An extra 10 or 15 hunters... please... what's everyone complaining about?

6500 turkey hunters state wide, and you're talking about crowded? We have more than that in ONE region of the ARCHERY deer hunt.


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## wasatchwillie

No I had it right! I enjoy hunting turkeys . Have been doing so for about 25 yrs now! I would rather draw, and be out there with fewer hunters, plus april is the prime time, especially if you hunt the extreme southern part of the state.


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## goosefreak

I think the crowding issue is more based on the fact of that time of the year turkeys are a little more focused together and in more specific areas. easier to get to perhaps, not as hard to find you could say. I'm speculating because of that you'll have more hunter concentration on some of these areas. I hunt turkeys out in the middle of the boonies in a spot that is actually fairly easy country to hunt for a mountainess area , lots of birds, and very few people and I don't really want to see that spot pile up with people. I'm under the impression that many people don't hunt them or not as much simply because they cant get the tag they want, maybe people think that by having an LE tag they can just walk out in the woods, throw out a call and hold on here they come, and thats just silly thinking. just a side note, my first nice tom I shot was in the middle of May, and he was gobbling HOT! I'v spent a few years learning the way of the turkey, and now that i'm being consistently successful (and that doesn't always mean pulling the trigger) I don't really want to change the system and possibly have to relearn. thats all


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## Kwalk3

wasatchwillie said:


> No I had it right! I enjoy hunting turkeys . Have been doing so for about 25 yrs now! I would rather draw, and be out there with fewer hunters, plus april is the prime time, especially if you hunt the extreme southern part of the state.


Agree to disagree. I don't hunt anywhere near Southern utah, so I'm sure our experiences with people and birds are vastly different. I agree April is prime time though, pretty much across the state. Good to hear the other point of view. I shouldn't have been so dismissive or absolute in my response before.


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## Fowlmouth

6500 total turkey hunters statewide and guys are pissing and moaning. Holy $hit you guys have never been to a WMA on opening morning of duck season have you?-O,- 6500 hunters spread out over the entire state and your worried someone might be in your secret spot. So what! maybe you have to walk a extra 200 yards.:-( I mean you either know how to hunt or you don't..............


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## Kwalk3

Goose freak, I understand what you are saying and your reasoning behind it. I wish it were different for different reasons, but will continue to hunt them on the general hunt. I hunted and scouted hard and missed my shot when I had it in the middle of May this year. I know it's possible, but to contrast what I saw while scouting during the LE hunt it was a pretty stark contrast. I really don't think it would be that big of a difference where I hunt if it was all general. Very little pressure during either hunt. But I acknowledge it's probably much more difficult to even out crowds in other areas.


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## goosefreak

Fowlmouth said:


> 6500 total turkey hunters statewide and guys are pissing and moaning. Holy $hit you guys have never been to a WMA on opening morning of duck season have you?-O,- 6500 hunters spread out over the entire state and your worried someone might be in your secret spot. So what! maybe you have to walk a extra 200 yards.:-( I mean you either know how to hunt or you don't..............


no, i'v never been to a WMA on opening day, cant bring myself to do it, and i think i'm okay with that. i'v heard the stories. opening day goose fields for me buddy!


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## hawglips

BPturkeys said:


> Well, HL's what about having the LE in May...you "quality" hunt guys would still have your "not so crowded" time to hunt, right?...ya , just what I suspected, you wouldn't respond to that.
> Oh and as to other states opening days...


I have no problem with LE in May. If LE was in May, that's when I'd be hunting (if I got drawn). That's what I did when LE included May before, and that's what I'd do if it returned. May is when I'd hunt, regardless.

But with OTC tags available in April, almost no one but me would apply for a May LE tag, so it won't happen. Everybody wants to hunt as soon as they can, and that will mean about 3 times the number of hunters hunting the first couple weeks, with fewer places to go than they'd have in May.



BPturkeys said:


> please name one state that start their hunts other than sometime in the first three weeks of April, with the VAST majority starting right around the 15th of Arpil.


Here are several:

Pennsylvania
Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Massachusetts
New York
Rhode Island
Connecticut
West Virginia
New Jersey (staggered openings by date)
Wisconsin (staggered openings by zone)
Minnesota (staggered openings by date)
Michigan (staggered openings by date)

Some states require that you apply for a very narrow "season".

Like I pointed out earlier, some states try to time their season opening to coincide with the point in time when the majority of hens are setting on the nest, and the toms are out looking for hens. The reported reason is to minimize accidental hen shootings and to make it easier for hunters. This is not news. They utilize studies on peak gobbling times and the onset of nesting and hatching that have been done to set the dates. If Utah was to follow this line of reasoning, I don't think the season would open as early as it does. But I am just guessing based on latitude and altitude and the onset of spring compared to other places I'm familiar with.

But not every state who has an idea of that point in the season believes that's the best time to set the season opener. And some don't seem to base the opener on anything but a wild guess. I don't have any opinion about what is best either way - just pointing out what some do.



BPturkeys said:


> It is just this simple... the Limited Entry hunt does only one thing...limits the opportunity for hunters to hunt turkeys in the prime turkey hunting time...period!


Limited entry hunts also create higher quality hunts for those that draw. That's the reason for it in most every state that does it in some form or another. This is not news - limited entry tags are one of the most popular strategies states use to create higher quality hunt opportunities.

http://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/License/Documents/Permit Hunts/2013-14/Turkey.pdf
http://myfwc.com/license/limited-entry-hunts/general-info/special-opp-spring-turkey/
http://www.georgiawildlife.com/site...a/QUOTA TURKEY HUNT SELECTION DATA 2013_0.pdf
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/2014/turkey14.pdf
http://www.iowadnr.gov/Portals/idnr/uploads/Hunting/nonres_sprturkey_guide.pdf

etc

I assume UT did it originally to create hunting opportunities utilizing a very limited resource. But regardless of the reason for doing it, the result is the same - higher quality hunts than would be the case if it were just opened up from day 1 to everybody. And that's why many states just have very short seasons of a few days that folks have to draw tags for - to increase the hunt quality for those that go. Utah is not the only place that has grappled with this issue.

But I know guys who have been involved in the turkey stocking effort in UT for the last 3 decades, and who hunt them from mid April through the end of May every year, who would not agree with your premise that mid April is the prime turkey hunting time in UT anyway.



BPturkeys said:


> The real reason and objective to have LE hunts is to create a product...the limited entry permit itself...that has a market value so guides and conservation groups can capitalize on them. It has nothing to do with providing a "quality hunt" for anyone. There is no value in a product that is unlimited in quantity. You can't say "come to my convention and win a general season turkey permit". Most people won't hire guides for hunts that they have't just spent a fortune to go on.


I don't know the "real reason" - I don't know that since I've never been involved. Maybe you have been involved in the creation of the regulations and know this. But I always assumed it is a carryover from the commencement of UT spring turkey hunting when it was done that way to protect a resource from over-exploitation.



BPturkeys said:


> There is none, notta, no biological reasons for a LE hunt.


Is there a biological reason to have a 7 week OTC season beginning in mid April? Such a season would put Utah in very elite company. Is that a good idea for Utah? We have a 4 week season in NC, and I am strongly opposed to expanding it (as are the turkey biologists). Has Utah ever done a turkey study of any sort? Utah is pretty unique and seems to me she could benefit from some research done on questions like these.



BPturkeys said:


> Hawglips, you even said yourself that there is good hunting after a week or so after the opening when the crowds thin down...


My statement about thinking April 20-something being the best time to kill turkeys in NC had nothing to do with crowds. It's just a personal opinion I've developed based on the year-in-year-out behavior of turkeys that I hunt in NC.



BPturkeys said:


> why make the majority of hunters wait...just open the season up and give all the hunters more time to pick those few days they can work a hunt in. Forcing them to schedule their hunts sometime within a 4 week period instead of a 7 week period is a major cause of the very crowding you disdain.


"Everybody" will pick the dates as early as they can go.  You'll have 3 times the number of hunters competing for the same limited places in UT with turkeys. That's all I'm saying. If Utah turkey hunters are like turkey hunters every where else, that's what will happen.

4 weeks is longer than many states give their hunters to plan a date to hunt. How many states have a wide open 7 week turkey season? A seven week OTC season is usually reserved for those states that have 20 times the turkeys that Utah does.


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## Mr Muleskinner

I wonder if LE duck hunting would make for a more pleasant experience on opening day?:?

Maybe LE chukar and rabbit tags would be a step in the right direction.

ooohhh yea how about LE fishing licenses that allow the lucky ones to be the first on the water after the ice melts off.


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## hawglips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I wonder if LE duck hunting would make for a more pleasant experience on opening day?:?
> 
> Maybe LE chukar and rabbit tags would be a step in the right direction.
> 
> ooohhh yea how about LE fishing licenses that allow the lucky ones to be the first on the water after the ice melts off.


I think an OTC 7 week bull elk season from Labor Day to mid October with any weapon is an even better idea.


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## Mr Muleskinner

hawglips said:


> I think an OTC 7 week bull elk season with any weapon is an even better idea.


Yep that would be perfect. It can be done right after the archery hunt which could be moved to hunt during the rut and after the youth hunt and muzzleloader hunt.


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## hawglips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Yep that would be perfect. It can be done right after the archery hunt which could be moved to hunt during the rut and after the youth hunt and muzzleloader hunt.


No need to let archery or muzzleloaders go first - just open up to general gun when the rut is getting started and have at it! There are 4 times the number of elk in UT than turkeys, so it could support a whole lot more hammering.


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## Mr Muleskinner

hawglips said:


> No need to let archery or muzzleloaders go first - just open up to general gun when the rut is getting started and have at it! There are 4 times the number of elk in UT than turkeys, so it could support a whole lot more hammering.


Nope. I archery hunt. I am only thinking about myself now.


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## hawglips

Mr Muleskinner said:


> Nope. I archery hunt. I am only thinking about myself now.


...I see... ;-)


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## Fowlmouth

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I wonder if LE duck hunting would make for a more pleasant experience on opening day?:?
> 
> Maybe LE chukar and rabbit tags would be a step in the right direction.
> 
> ooohhh yea how about LE fishing licenses that allow the lucky ones to be the first on the water after the ice melts off.


 I know you are being sarcastic, but you aren't too far from the truth on this. I'm sure there are private organizations drooling over this money making limited opportunity idea.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Fowlmouth said:


> I know you are being sarcastic, but you aren't too far from the truth on this. I'm sure there are private organizations drooling over this money making limited opportunity idea.


absolutely


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## Skally

hawglips said:


> I think an OTC 7 week bull elk season from Labor Day to mid October with any weapon is an even better idea.


At least the LE archery elk season is as long or longer than the general archery elk season.. Just plain stupid that LE turkey is half the time or less than general


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## swbuckmaster

Its half the time but has twice the success rate.


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## Skally

swbuckmaster said:


> Its half the time but has twice the success rate.


I can't even tell what side of the debate youre on anymore


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## toasty

I have been following this debate closely and am surprised to find that there is a debate. I thought it would be 90+% who would want to do away with LE turkey hunting, but I guess some guys like the way it is currently run. I think many guys think there is a higher percentage chance to bag a bird with LE hunting, but I don't believe that is true. I think the only advantage is birds are more responsive and vocal during that time, but IMO birds are just as difficult to kill during LE as GS. I know success is higher for LE hunts, but I would bet if we looked at days hunted per bagged bird, they would be the same. There are a lot of GS tags being to sold so fathers can hunt with kids, grandparents, and brothers etc... and to the guys that just want to try turkey hunting. I believe the difference in harvest % is due to fewer dedicated/skilled hunters hunting GS vs LE.

I think once we had just a single GS season that is 7 weeks long, everybody would be on board, but maybe not. I would like to see the DWR do a 3 year GS only and then get hunter feedback and turkey populations to decide whether we should go back to LE. My hope is once we go all GS we would never go back.


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## swbuckmaster

Edited it Lol
Sorry im for leaving it the way it is.

My response was for Skally. Some how toasty bumped me


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## hawglips

Skally said:


> At least the LE archery elk season is as long or longer than the general archery elk season.. Just plain stupid that LE turkey is half the time or less than general


In most states, the LE tags are just a few days.


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## BPturkeys

Well, as you may have heard by now, the new turkey management plan, complete with a LE hunt as we now have it was voted in by the board today. 
Doesn't much matter to me, I am old and mostly hunt another state in April, but you young guys most likely will see the day when you wait years and years, maybe a couple three times in a life time... for the privilege to hunt turkeys in the prime time, not being able to hunt with your family or friends because they didn't draw. Expect the LE hunt to be expanded to either a longer time period or possibly a second LE hunt reaching into May. Da*n, you boys been sold another bill of goods. 
Oh, looks like the crow hunt may be on, give you something to do while you're waiting for that turkey tag. Of course, you trophy, quality crow hunt guys will be just buyin crow tag points for the first few years so to get a jump on the competition come the Limited Entry Crow hunt.


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## johnnycake

Given it was my first year ever hunting turkeys take the following as you will. I hunted the general season and didn't get out until a week after the opener. I had zero calling experience and no decoys until may 18 th, but had lots of gobbler action every morning I went out. The GS if not prime is still pretty awesome IMO, so I'm glad they kept this split season. And who knows maybe in a few years I'll draw an le tag and see what the hype is all about, but until then I'm going to enjoy this "subprime" turkey time that had birds going nuts... And for the record this was in a place on the wasatch that is very accessible....


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## hawglips

hawglips said:


> 4 weeks is longer than many states give their hunters to plan a date to hunt. How many states have a wide open 7 week turkey season? A seven week OTC season is usually reserved for those states that have 20 times the turkeys that Utah does.


This hasn't been addressed in this thread, but I think it's THE most important consideration for any state - the welfare and management of the resource. It's curious that this hasn't even come up other than the above. The question of a 7 week OTC season or not has been settled by the division, but the principle of maintaining a healthy turkey flock is still important to think about for the future.


----------



## Eclectic

hawglips said:


> This hasn't been addressed in this thread, but I think it's THE most important consideration for any state - the welfare and management of the resource. It's curious that this hasn't even come up other than the above. The question of a 7 week OTC season or not has been settled by the division, but the principle of maintaining a healthy turkey flock is still important to think about for the future.


I think that hawglips has roosted upon the most important issue of this whole debate - what kind of a hunting season structure is in the best interest of the TURKEYS? After all, aren't we all in favor of maximizing our turkey-hunting potential? Therefore, it behooves us to TAKE CARE OF OUR RESOURCE above all.

We (the Division included) make suppositions about our Utah turkeys based upon data collected (and conclusions drawn) from other states; i.e., when does peak breeding actually occur; what is acceptable "take" from a given population of turkeys; what is average mortality for that given population; and so on. The fact is that Utah is totally different from every other state out there with respect to turkeys and turkey hunting. The winters get fairly cold, but the summers are dry - it is the second driest state in the US (behind NV). Roughly 85% of the state is composed of public land. These 2 factors alone account for relatively little suitable turkey forage production, and what does get produced gets grazed off by competing wildlife and livestock. Hence, wintering Utah turkeys have a tough go of it under the best of circumstances. Couple that with limited water resources and associated acceptable roosting structure, and it's no wonder that we have these kinds of conversations - we just do not have enough turkeys in this state to satisfy all those who want to chase them. That says nothing about the fact that most of our birds find themselves living on public land where there is season-long, unimpeded access to all the areas that they frequent to anyone who wishes to try to kill them.

That having been said, then what is the best way to allow the maximum number of hunting opportunities without adversely impacting the limited resource? I am here to tell you that turkey resources in Utah cannot withstand a 7 week OTC hunting season. I have been involved with trap and relocation of wild turkeys in Utah since the early '90's and have touched 2,200 turkeys that got boxed and sent to new homes all around the state. Most of those were trapped from areas on the Beaver and Pahvant Units. I helped stock the Pahvant and have personnally monitored that particular group of birds for over 2 decades. In the late-'90's there were 2-300 turkeys in nearly every canyon on the Pahvant where year-round water persisted. Today there are not 600 turkeys on the entire mountain. I know of 3 drainages where the turkeys were eliminated completely (I believe mainly from killing too many toms before adequate breeding took place) so that they had to be restocked. There is hardly a day that goes by on that unit that a canyon does not get hunted. The Pahvant was once the most prolific turkey hunting unit in Utah, and now it has become a mere shadow of its former self. It certainly no longer sustains the numbers of turkeys that it could or should, and I contend that over-hunting has been the main culprit for its decline.

The Stansbury Mountains is another classic case of suitable turkey habitat that has failed to maintain its wild turkey carrying capacity. The Stansburys have been for years a favorite destination for hunters because of it's close proximity to Salt Lake City. The locals from Tooele no longer hunt there because of the high number of hunters afield and because of the low numbers of available toms to shoot at.

We could debate all day as to whether over-hunting has CAUSED the decline of wild turkeys in certain areas of the state, but no one can argue that it hasn't contributed SIGNIFICANTLY to it. If we want to maximize our turkey hunting potential in Utah, then we must understand that we have a limited, fragile resource whose well-being we as responsible conservationists must insure above all else. Our desire to hunt them in the way that we prefer must NEVER jeopardize that....


----------



## goosefreak

BPturkeys said:


> Well, as you may have heard by now, the new turkey management plan, complete with a LE hunt as we now have it was voted in by the board today.
> Doesn't much matter to me, I am old and mostly hunt another state in April, but you young guys most likely will see the day when you wait years and years, maybe a couple three times in a life time... for the privilege to hunt turkeys in the prime time, not being able to hunt with your family or friends because they didn't draw. Expect the LE hunt to be expanded to either a longer time period or possibly a second LE hunt reaching into May. Da*n, you boys been sold another bill of goods.
> Oh, looks like the crow hunt may be on, give you something to do while you're waiting for that turkey tag. Of course, you trophy, quality crow hunt guys will be just buyin crow tag points for the first few years so to get a jump on the competition come the Limited Entry Crow hunt.


How is that going to be different than any other hunt we have here in utah?? you still have to put in for almost, wait no I mean EVERY tag to hunt, and it still doesn't mean your gonna draw. Also doesn't it seem logical still that you can go out on one's hunt as a family and camp/enjoy being with family regardless that not everyone has a tag? are you implying that the only way you can enjoy spending time with family is by EVERYONE having a tag??? (sure it would make it more exciting, I get that). if you say your getting old and hunt other states anyways than why do you even care about changes? in what way will it benefit you? and not the youngsters like me we'll say. sounds like your a little bitter about the decisions made, but thats just my speculation, i'm sorry it may not be working out for you, but I do like the current system now, I'v been on both LE turkey and GS turkey hunts and we hammer birds on both hunts. Sometimes we have to hunt a little harder and sometimes not, but we do our homework and sometimes that means more homework than I want, but its paid off for our group.. sorry I don't mean to ruffle your feathers BP, but really, if you are looking for a good crow spot, I could hook you up!!


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## TEX-O-BOB

BPturkeys said:


> Well, as you may have heard by now, the new turkey management plan, complete with a LE hunt as we now have it was voted in by the board today.
> Doesn't much matter to me, I am old and mostly hunt another state in April, but you young guys most likely will see the day when you wait years and years, maybe a couple three times in a life time... for the privilege to hunt turkeys in the prime time, not being able to hunt with your family or friends because they didn't draw. Expect the LE hunt to be expanded to either a longer time period or possibly a second LE hunt reaching into May. Da*n, you boys been sold another bill of goods.
> Oh, looks like the crow hunt may be on, give you something to do while you're waiting for that turkey tag. Of course, you trophy, quality crow hunt guys will be just buyin crow tag points for the first few years so to get a jump on the competition come the Limited Entry Crow hunt.


-_O-

Did you _really _think they were going to do anything else?

Idaho, here I come, again...


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## BPturkeys

TEX-O-BOB said:


> -_O-
> 
> Did you _really _think they were going to do anything else?
> 
> Idaho, here I come, again...


I know, but we gave it a shot anyway. 
It's amazing to me how the Utah..dam*, I am now going with Utard hunter, has been brainwashed into accepting this crazy LE system we have in Utah. Seems to be the trend around the country now days so I guess I'll just shut up about it, have a few more turkey hunts and call it a life.:smile:


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## TEX-O-BOB

I feel yer pain Newt, I saw the writing on the wall 25 years ago when SFW set up shop and started their takeover. It's a lost cause.


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## hawglips

Just to add a little more perspective to the discussion of setting turkey seasons and managing turkey flocks, here are some links from some other states' wildlife divisions discussing the issues they take into consideration when setting season dates, etc.

http://www.georgiawildlife.com/Hunting/NoFallTurkey

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/turkey/management-plan/draft-turkey-management-plan.pdf

http://www.agfc.com/hunting/Documents/StrategicTurkeyPlan.pdf

https://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/.../turkey_plan_pdf

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00425/wdfw00425.pdf


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## ram2h2o

I guess I will have to continue to return to my Mississippi each spring to hunt Eastern turkeys and hope that my friends here in Utah will draw a tag so that I can enjoy calling up some Tom's for them and also hunt the GS.


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## hawglips

Here's a couple articles about peak gobbling, breeding and incubation considerations when setting spring gobbler seasons.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#...rtal/.../setting_the_spring_turkey_season_pdf

http://dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/turkey/springseason09.html


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