# Superbowl halftime show



## ridgetop

So what did you guys think? I thought it came across as pretty trashy and even ****ty. Facebook is sure going crazy over the subject.


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## Fowlmouth

Garbage! Degrading to all women, but I wouldn't expect less out of those two.


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## 2full

Feel the same as you guys. 
Bunch of trash. Quite the role models for young girls, aren't they ??


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## Catherder

Can't say I watched it. I usually busy myself with other things during the halftime show. 

In this case, I was playing the "Patience" song by G&R to my kids because they had never heard it before. 8)


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## BGD

My 15 year old daughter said, “Do they not get that they are really just objectifying themselves as women? I thought they were going to do something that was empowering for women.” It is nice to know that she gets it and can see through the contradicting messages that are being conveyed these days.


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## 3arabians

Catherder said:


> Can't say I watched it. I usually busy myself with other things during the halftime show.
> 
> In this case, I was playing the "Patience" song by G&R to my kids because they had never heard it before. 8)


Same here. I spent halftime cleaning up the mess while the wife and kids watched. No one sounded impressed. Sounds like that might of been due to shock

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## johnnycake

This is really hurtful guys, I practiced for months on my gyrations and literally worked my azz off to fit into my unitard.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Honestly get over it. Just because someone’s ideals aren’t your own doesn’t mean your right and they’re wrong. You don’t have to watch it at all. I find the “shock” or “disgust” quite ridiculous. Get outside your bubble, people are different and don’t have to think, act, dress, or be just like yourself. Nor do they have to conform to what you think or have been taught is acceptable.


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## goosefreak

promotion of objectifying women, trashy, ****ty coming from a group of people who supposedly speak against the very act...


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## Airborne

I’ll be the odd man out here, I liked it! Fine lookin gals twerkin their tails around, what the heck else did ya think it was gonna be with those two! I laughed through most of it, that rapper guy looked hilarious with his first outfit.

Dance numbers were spot on and I thought they did well, was a good light hearted time. Never gonna complain about good lookin scantily clad women on the screen! Not as good as Katie Perry or Lady GaGa’s shows but much better than several other humdrum shows.

Lot’s of sticks in the mud on the forum, Ha! :grin:


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## #1DEER 1-I

goosefreak said:


> promotion of objectifying women, trashy, ****ty coming from a group of people who supposedly speak against the very act...


Them not conforming to the ideals you think is okay does not make them trashy, ****ty or any of those things. Grow up and understand that not everyone is the same or has to do things that you think is okay.


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## Lone_Hunter

Of the 3 minutes I watched, the only thing those two females were lacking was a pole.

I won't sit here and pretend that I never let my gonades get the better of me when I was younger, but I can say as a middle aged father of a 6 year old daughter... I DID NOT APPRECIATE IT. Having a daughter really alters your opinion on some things. These are not the type of role models I want my little girl watching, which she was. Wish my wife turned the channel, but she didn't.


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## High Desert Elk

Was that Superbowl thing yesterday?


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## taxidermist

J lo is an awesome dance choreographer and it showed last night! Unfortunately, that's not all she was showing. Sex, drugs, and whatever those two were doing sells. I didn't see the entire halftime, I was fetching up more snacks for the gang. 


Some think its downgrading Women. (cant say yay or nay) The costumes they wore covered more than the SI swimsuit models. Are they (models) portrayed as dragging women into the depths of degradation?


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## Vanilla

taxidermist said:


> Some think its downgrading Women. (cant say yay or nay) The costumes they wore covered more than the SI swimsuit models. Are they (models) portrayed as dragging women into the depths of degradation?


Many would say so, yes. That is the very definition of objectification. It doesn't mean it isn't their right to do it if they choose, but we can't pretend it portrays women in a healthy realm or as anything other than sexual objects.



Lone_Hunter said:


> the only thing those two females were lacking was a pole


You missed it grabbing snacks then. There was a pole!

I was neither shocked, disgusted, nor surprised by the show. I was also not impressed or entertained. There have been way better shows than that. As for the rest of it, I guess I found myself asking the same questions BGD's daughter did. I had heard it was going to be an empowering message that I looked forward to my daughters being able to watch, I must have missed that aspect of it. The one song was the attempt, but it was clearly drowned out by the rest. For a sport that featured a team as champion last night with multiple serious woman beaters on it, I'm guessing the NFL will catch some flack from small groups of people. In the end, they won't care because they'll keep making billions while pretending to care about social issues and we'll all keep watching.


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## BPturkeys

Wait, what...did you say ****ty and trashy?...I was expecting Micheal Buble', so while I fixed me a ham sandwich I missed the whole thing.


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## Lone_Hunter

Vanilla said:


> You missed it grabbing snacks then. There was a pole!


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## olibooger

I brought up the youtube video to see the half time show. If I didn't see a news headline saying something about Shakira, I probably never would have. I have a thing for Shakiras voice. I dunno what it is but it makes my ears happy. The performance overall was okay I suppose. The bump and grind crap doesn't really wow me. If JLO chose a better prop other than a stripper pole it might have been better. I cant help but think the little girl singing being JLOs daughter was thinking, "there is my mom shaking her butt that is falling out like a cheap *****."
Generally I dont watch sports anymore but like I said, Shakira caught my attention and i ended up watching the final five of the game. My house forgot there was a thing such as the super bowl. Ever since the kneeling, sports = 👎
Bunch of thugs running around bashing at each other anyways.


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## RandomElk16

I was laughing before it even started. They PROMISED it would be female empowering....

I was sitting there like how? How would they make a freaking halftime show empowering?

They can't, didn't, and won't. Call it what it is. That said......


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## Critter

You mean that there was a trashy show at halftime? -()/-

I haven't watched a halftime show in over 30 years now. That is time to do important things that need to be done such as going to the bathroom.


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## caddis8

Turned it off at halftime. I learned that lesson from the Janet Jackson incident. It's the only football game i kind of watch anyway because Sundays are busy for me. So, I didn't really care to watch the show anyway. I don't listen to that kind of stuff anyway (prefer podcasts, talk radio, classical music, and old country) so I wasn't missing anything. 


I'm not a Chiefs fan, but I'm a big Andy Reid fan. It was great watching him win and any leader/coach/mentor needs to learn about and learn from Andy. He was a very gracious winner and heaped praise and credit on those around him.


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## backcountry

I see a difference between sexy/sensual and trashy/****ty. Granted I never really use the latter. Those are up there with the word "thug". 

My wife found it empowering and enjoyed when she streamed it at the end of the night. It was fun to her and she knows how much J Lo worked and learned for her Hustlers role, hence the homage to pole dancing. Heck, pole dancing has been a common workout now for almost a decade nothing inherently naughty about it. 

More power to a couple woman in their 40s and 50s staying in shape well enough to maintain their pop culture prowess. Those dance moves aren't easy. People may not like what it represents or how they interpret it but that doesn't mean they are objectifying themselves; ironically the objectification is definitely implying what they did was ****ty, trashy, garbage , etc despite their clear empowerment and control over that moment. J Lo is one of the most successful woman performers of the last few decades rising up from being a backup dancer to running her own business empire, which includes last night's performance. 

Plus, anyone remember a similar blow up last year when Adam Levine went topless for much of his show? 

More power to any woman that knows that's not who they are and chooses to not internalize someone else's values because it's on the screen. And more power to a 40 or 50 year old woman who works harder than most, has no problem being overtly sexy and enjoys every moment of it. They aren't mutually exclusive as they both involve women owning how and when to use their bodies based upon their own values.

*Had to stream it as I don't watch NFL given their pathetic response to the evidence of traumatic brain injuries.


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## goosefreak

#1DEER 1-I said:


> goosefreak said:
> 
> 
> 
> promotion of objectifying women, trashy, ****ty coming from a group of people who supposedly speak against the very act...
> 
> 
> 
> Them not conforming to the ideals you think is okay does not make them trashy, ****ty or any of those things. Grow up and understand that not everyone is the same or has to do things that you think is okay.
Click to expand...

Grow up???? Hmm. You must just be an ignorant fool..

Your right, might as well twerk your puss at the camera then..


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## olibooger

backcountry said:


> *Had to stream it as I don't watch NFL given their pathetic response to the evidence of traumatic brain injuries.


Just a bunch of "thug"-like barbarians the powers that be use to make money and distract the general public from things that actually matter.
Regarding and tying in the post about "pay to play" , these are the same kinds of people who utilize thugs to fill jail cells for profit. Similar to the people who keep people enslaved on welfare for votes that maintain political social programs. Sports are a modern day Coliseum event IMO. They could care less about brain injuries. Theyll make it appear publicly like they are doing something but not do anything.

Women empowerment? Yes, I want my wife to be just like JLo up on that pole grabbing at her genitals in ****ty for private viewing scantily clad clothing. &#128078;

Maybe we should have a talk with our wives after seeing the halftime show what a REAL women looks like.

EDIT: Not ALL sports players are barbarians. The majority however are.


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## backcountry

Like I said, my wife enjoyed it but isn't J Lo or Shakira. Doesn't try to be. She's a "real woman". They are "real women". 

Feel free to share more about your worldviews but I'm not sure J Lo being 100% comfortable with her body has much to do with your hypothesis of an alleged welfare enslavement system 😲

Olibooger "Similar to the people who keep people enslaved on welfare for votes that maintain political social programs"

Those are some seriously dark assumptions way out in left field. Might be a good example of why words like "thug" and "hooker" are so problematic.


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## caddis8

To each their own. It's just not my cup of tea. Some people love to go to Vegas and see the shows. I don't. J-Lo and Shakira are very talented and successful, to be sure. I'm not taking anything away from them, as people clearly choose and vote with their wallet. 

But I'm different than most. I'm ok with that. I haven't really ever cared for that kind and style of music/dancing. They can move in ways I didn't know were possible. Super talented in a lot of ways. I just don't care for it. Haven't watched a half time show in a long time, and only watched a handful of superbowls the last dozen years.


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## Lone_Hunter

I completely fail to see how dancing around like a stripper, without ethics, nor morals, nor respect, nor the slightest regard for children is empowering. All i see is a couple of women of loose morals who want apparently like portraying themselves as nothing more then sexual objects. Bottom line, sex sells, and their doing it for the money. Kinda like a prostitute.


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## 2full

#1 Deer:
I have the right to my opinion and the right to express it. 
I am tired of people telling me I don't have that right. 
I don't care what anyone thinks of my opinion. 
You have the right to disagree or agree. I don't care. You don't have the right to tell me I can't state it. 
You sure don't hesitate to state your opinions.


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## olibooger

Until you have lived hungry in a place where everyone is hungry and lives on welfare with no job opportunity besides filling a jail cell to earn someone else a check, you will have no idea. I did this for over a decade.

Anyone can read a book or be lectured on "how bad it is" and why it that way. 

Live it. Live it until there is nearly no hope of getting out of it. You'll understand.

I'm not trying to be rude, I assure you I'm not. It's a bummer society keeps clawing it's way down these paths. Freaks me out honestly.

Full circle, I hunt for food.


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## backcountry

I think this thread is ten times more revealing than either of their outfits or dances.


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## taxidermist

Critter said:


> You mean that there was a trashy show at halftime? -()/-
> 
> I haven't watched a halftime show in over 30 years now. That is time to do important things that need to be done such as going to the bathroom.


Glad to see I'm not the only "Old Fart" using the best of halftime !!


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## Vanilla

2full said:


> #1 Deer:
> I have the right to my opinion and the right to express it.
> I am tired of people telling me I don't have that right.
> I don't care what anyone thinks of my opinion.
> You have the right to disagree or agree. I don't care. You don't have the right to tell me I can't state it.
> You sure don't hesitate to state your opinions.


I like this, regardless of how I feel about anyone's individual opinion on this one. This principle is important to an educated and respectful society. Too often people cry for freedom of expression, and then berate those they don't agree with For expressing their own views. Too often people suggest others shouldn't judge or inflict their own moral on others, and do exactly that in the process of their own request. (Or lecture?)

Everyone is free to determine if they like a super bowl half time show based upon whatever criteria they decide. Seeing it differently from others doesn't put anyone in a superior position or on a higher plane than those others. But that seems to be the day in which we live. Oh well.


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## Critter




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## PBH

ugh.

#1. I wish they would separate the Super Bowl and the Halftime show. Could we get them on different days of the week? Then all those who wish to attend a hip-hop party can go party, and those who want to watch football can watch football.

#1A. I'm not a fan of "watching the commercials" either. This used to be a football game. I'm not sure what it is anymore. Sure, there's some football mixed in there somewhere......but all the stupid hoopla associated with it is beyond ludicrous speed. But, that's why I watched Gold Rush reruns right up until the singing of the National Anthem. 

#2. Why can't we get a halftime show similar to that of the BCS National Championship game?? Of all the things college football does wrong - THEY GET THIS RIGHT!! The NFL and NBA could learn a thing or two from watching college sports.....but, I digress, when most of your athletes skip this time period, what do you expect??

#3. My 12 year old daughter summed up the Super Bowl halftime show quite well when she said "J-Lo just mooned us!" 

Yep. we got mooned.


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## #1DEER 1-I

2full said:


> #1 Deer:
> I have the right to my opinion and the right to express it.
> I am tired of people telling me I don't have that right.
> I don't care what anyone thinks of my opinion.
> You have the right to disagree or agree. I don't care. You don't have the right to tell me I can't state it.
> You sure don't hesitate to state your opinions.


How about this. How about you and your family live your lives how you want and stop judging others for how they live there.

Like seriously THIS IS WHY PEOPLE LOOK AT UTAH LIKE WE ARE ALL A BUNCH OF POS. You have your right to your opinion. You don't have the right to be running people down because of their choices,values, or ways they live there lives. They aren't ****s because they don't share the same values as you, just like the black guy with a bunch tattoos isn't a "thug". I saw embarrassing comments on the Jazz post when they traded for Clarkson including the word thug underneath and you all wonder why people don't like Utah and think we're all a bunch of "better than you" racist weirdos.

I didn't say you can't have your opinion but you and everyone here should not call other people's names because they are different than you or hold different values. You don't have any right to assume/call someone a **** or thug because they don't look/act/think like you. Teach your kids your values, don't be judging people because they don't share those values and act like they should live their lives by your set of rules.


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## wyoming2utah

Can we just have some analysis of the game at halftime? Maybe some more highlights of the game and maybe even some highlights of the teams as they made their runs through the season and playoffs. The Super Bowl isn't even about the game anymore...

...even worse, the "performers" didn't even sing the songs. Hell, anybody can pretend to sing...


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## Vanilla

The hypocrisy in your post is stunning, 1Deer. I doubt it’s intentional, and I get what you are saying in your message, but the hypocrisy is still there. 

You called names to someone you didn’t agree with. You don’t like how they are living their lives (or posting on this thread) and are trying to force YOUR morals on them. 

I wish your continued gripe on this forum against the people of Utah and what you think is the perception was true. It would keep more people from moving here if that was the case. Unfortunately, your perspective isn’t everyone else’s around the country.


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## Vanilla

I’m going to do a very dangerous thing and agree entirely with the heppys!

-O,-:shock:


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## #1DEER 1-I

Vanilla said:


> The hypocrisy in your post is stunning, 1Deer. I doubt it's intentional, and I get what you are saying in your message, but the hypocrisy is still there.
> 
> You called names to someone you didn't agree with. You don't like how they are living their lives (or posting on this thread) and are trying to force YOUR morals on them.
> 
> I wish your continued gripe on this forum against the people of Utah and what you think is the perception was true. It would keep more people from moving here if that was the case. Unfortunately, your perspective isn't everyone else's around the country.


I have no issue if they hold different values or have an opinion. When you start calling people "trashy,****s, and thugs" you aren't expressing an opinion your being a judgmental ******* who thinks someone else should live their lives by your rules and values. People in this state are absolutely judgmental assholes who think something outside their bubble of thoughts and values is wrong. It's not.


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## CPAjeff

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I have no issue if they hold different values or have an opinion. When you start calling people "trashy,****s, and thugs" you aren't expressing an opinion your being a judgmental ******* who thinks someone else should live their lives by your rules and values. People in this state are absolutely judgmental assholes who think something outside their bubble of thoughts and values is wrong. It's not.


But you see, you are being a judgmental ******* by saying that people in this state are absolutely judgement a**holes who think something outside their bubble of thoughts are values is wrong. . .

Be careful out there on the slippery slopes.

#TOTP
#IBTL


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## #1DEER 1-I

CPAjeff said:


> But you see, you are being a judgmental ******* by saying that people in this state are absolutely judgement a**holes who think something outside their bubble of thoughts are values is wrong. . .
> 
> Be careful out there on the slippery slopes.
> 
> #TOTP
> #IBTL


I see it. Constantly. And if you are calling people ****s and thugs because they have tattoos or aren't dressing/dancing how you think is appropriate you are an *******. If that doesn't apply to you, I'm not referring to you. Big difference between saying "I don't like tattoos" and "your a thug" because you have some. "I thought their dancing/outfit was inappropriate" is different from straight up calling them a **** because of it. Shouldn't be calling people terrible things you don't know just because they aren't the same as you.


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## goosefreak

So what’s it called when you shake your puss and smash your t i t s together at the camera and have some rapper fake slapping your A$$...

Garbage....


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## ridgetop

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I have no issue if they hold different values or have an opinion. When you start calling people "trashy,****s, and thugs" you aren't expressing an opinion your being a judgmental ******* who thinks someone else should live their lives by your rules and values. People in this state are absolutely judgmental assholes who think something outside their bubble of thoughts and values is wrong. It's not.


1eye, you are really growing into the roll of a Utah liberal. Well played. You need to re-read the O.P. Then we'll talk some more.


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## middlefork

I can't believe how many on here were forced to watch something that apparently really offended them. They were expecting the Mickey Mouse Club?

Personally I listened to the game. I did not watch it.


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## backcountry

I think the "respectful society" stance is hard to take in a thread that started with statements about "****ty" and "trashy". I'm personally fine with people expressing their view, even those I find problematic, in this thread just as much as I am fine with critiquing public statements. 

I wish I had the super powers to know individuals like J Lo behaved "without ethics, nor morals, nor respect, nor the slightest regard for child" or that they are "women of loose morals" because of a dance routine I may dislike. 

It was also said in this thread that "we can’t pretend it portrays women in a healthy realm or as anything other than sexual objects". That is odd to me since this was also one of the most overtly political halftime shows in a while. Anybody else have to look up who Bad Bunny was and why it mattered for a halftime show in Miami?

I also think its plenty healthy to have women on stage who have agency and enjoy being overtly sexual under their own volition. To be honest, its also been something lacking from most pop culture as women are historically props in music. Here are two women displaying two different concepts of sexuality (their routines were very different in imagery) that they own and are empowered by. They did it while employing some not so subtle social commentary, as music is wont to do. A lot of intention and knowledge going into those dances. 

I know I for one am not "pretending" that this type of performance is multifaceted, can be very healthy, can be liberating, and can be empowering for many women. Sincerely know it. That wasn't a short or easy journey for someone raised as I was or who falls closer to the "prude" side of the scale than most in my own behavior. 

Ironically, a "sexual object" is something a viewer or third person creates based upon their assumption that is all the person/object provides or the viewers singular interest. Its the interpretation that turns a person into a sexual object, not the routine itself. Sexual objectification reveals more about the viewer than the performer.


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## PBH

#1DEER 1-I said:


> People in this state are absolutely judgmental assholes who think something outside their bubble of thoughts and values is wrong.


That's my right. If I want to be a judgmental ******* who thinks my values are right -- WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME I'M WRONG??

:smow:


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## johnnycake

backcountry said:


> I think the "respectful society" stance is hard to take in a thread that started with statements about "****ty" and "trashy". I'm personally fine with people expressing their view, even those I find problematic, in this thread just as much as I am fine with critiquing public statements.
> 
> I wish I had the super powers to know individuals like J Lo behaved "without ethics, nor morals, nor respect, nor the slightest regard for child" or that they are "women of loose morals" because of a dance routine I may dislike.
> 
> It was also said in this thread that "we can't pretend it portrays women in a healthy realm or as anything other than sexual objects". That is odd to me since this was also one of the most overtly political halftime shows in a while. Anybody else have to look up who Bad Bunny was and why it mattered for a halftime show in Miami?
> 
> I also think its plenty healthy to have women on stage who have agency and enjoy being overtly sexual under their own volition. To be honest, its also been something lacking from most pop culture as women are historically props in music. Here are two women displaying two different concepts of sexuality (their routines were very different in imagery) that they own and are empowered by. They did it while employing some not so subtle social commentary, as music is wont to do. A lot of intention and knowledge going into those dances.
> 
> I know I for one am not pretending that this type of performance is multifaceted, can be very healthy, can be liberating, and can be empowering for many women. That wasn't a short or easy journey for someone raised as I was or who falls closer to the "prude" side of the scale than most in my own behavior.
> 
> Ironically, a "sexual object" is something a viewer or third person creates based upon their assumption that is all the person/object provides or the viewers singular interest. Its the interpretation that turns a person into a sexual object, not the routine itself. Sexual objectification reveals more about the viewer than the performer.


Well stated and I agree entirely.


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## #1DEER 1-I

PBH said:


> That's my right. If I want to be a judgmental ******* who thinks my values are right -- WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME I'M WRONG??
> 
> :smow:


See here's the thing, that's an assumption on your part. I have no problem with your values I have a problem with pushing/implying someone is a **** for not holding those same values. Would I want my daughter doing that? No. If someone else doesn't hold those same values I'm not going to call them names because of it. They choose to live their life differently than me and that's perfectly fine.


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## #1DEER 1-I

ridgetop said:


> 1eye, you are really growing into the roll of a Utah liberal. Well played. You need to re-read the O.P. Then we'll talk some more.


Th original post lead into calling them ****s,hookers, and trashy because they danced in a way that didn't meet your standard as okay. Does it meet my standard of what I'd want my daughter to do? No. That doesn't mean I'm going to bash them or call them horrendous things because they have different values than me. About 5 years ago I would have considered myself pretty conservative. And by no means if the left side of the isle great, but the right is in a way many of the things they are called. As I've watched people here assume that the Mormon,white, monoculture is the only acceptable culture or way to live I've absolutely been swayed to left leaning. It's not okay to call people thugs because they are black and have a bunch of tattoos and it's not okay to call someone a trashy **** because they were dancing in a way that doesn't meet what you think is decent. It's fine to hold completely opposite opinions/ideals. I don't think it's okay to be judgmental, racist, or homophobic like a lot of people here absolutely are at times whether intentional or not.


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## PBH

I don't like Tom Brady. He's right there with Lebron.

But when I see Tom Brady, I immediately picture him singing "The Man" by the Killers.

Ugh. What a loser.

Sorry -- that's my opinion. I hope I don't upset any libs with this opinion.


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## backcountry

Dammit, now I've got an earworm on a snowy day. 

Getting old. Never heard of the Killers.

Feel privileged that I don't have any mental pictures of Tom Brady. Though I'd love to have another to dislike the Broncos 

😬😁


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## #1DEER 1-I

PBH said:


> I don't like Tom Brady. He's right there with Lebron.
> 
> But when I see Tom Brady, I immediately picture him singing "The Man" by the Killers.
> 
> Ugh. What a loser.
> 
> Sorry -- that's my opinion. I hope I don't upset any libs with this opinion.


"Libs" Nah, maybe I just think people should open their mind a bit and realize that not everyone holds their same values and you shouldn't disparage them just because they don't.

I think people here are generally pretty good people, who are at times and many times naively very judgmental about a bunch of things that are outside their own set of values.


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> I don't like Tom Brady. He's right there with Lebron.
> 
> But when I see Tom Brady, I immediately picture him singing "The Man" by the Killers.
> 
> Ugh. What a loser.
> 
> Sorry -- that's my opinion. I hope I don't upset any *libs* with this opinion.


I think Tom's a Trump guy. You may have to worry more about the MAGA crowd.

Heh, heh. What are you going to do if Jerr-uh gets a(nother) crazy idea to pursue Brady in free agency this off season?


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## Vanilla

#1DEER 1-I said:


> "Libs" Nah, maybe I just think people should open their mind a bit and realize that not everyone holds their same values and you shouldn't disparage them just because they don't.
> 
> I think people here are generally pretty good people, who are at times and many times naively very judgmental about a bunch of things that are outside their own set of values.


I agree entirely! Which is why I'm curious that you continue to be closed minded about the fact that some on this thread don't hold the same values as you do and why you keep calling them names and judging them????

Maybe I gave you too much credit when I said I didn't think you did it intentionally. It's starting to appear very intentional.


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## PBH

meh....

I still follow the 'Boys, and probably always will. But I find myself following individuals more and more as I get older.

I do agree, that in order for America to be great, we _need_ the Cowboys winning Super Bowls. So, I'd sacrifice, I'd take one for the team, I'd swallow my pride, and i'd root for The Man if he were wearing the silver and blue star on his helmet. I could do that for a season. But we all know that he's on the downhill slide. Maybe we should look at bringing in a true redeemer for the organization, the league, and our country: Taysom Hill.


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## Catherder

PBH said:


> Maybe we should look at bringing in a true redeemer for the organization, the league, and our country: Taysom Hill.


LOL, yeah, that ought to do it.

We will be seeing Andy Reid on the sidelines at Lavell Edwards Stadium next fall as well.


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## backcountry

Would I want a child to have a role model like Shakira? Talented Grammy award winner? Successful 30 year career? Side business that has lasted a decade? Founded a charity that helps poor kids the last 20 years? Interested in her ethnic heritage like belly dancing and the music that accompanies it(a large part of her routine)(family from Lebanon)? Comfortable with her sexuality without letting it solely define her?

I'd be happy for that type of influence and perseverance. 

I dare say Shakira's influence is healthier than men calling female performers and their stage routines "****ty", "trashy", "garbage" and stating they "look like hookers". I've worked with teenage girls, those types of names and terms damage them more than any female singer ever has. I know more than one woman who carries the burden of those names decades later. I can't name a single woman who has pointed to similar trauma from watching a female musician or stage performer.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Vanilla said:


> I agree entirely! Which is why I'm curious that you continue to be closed minded about the fact that some on this thread don't hold the same values as you do and why you keep calling them names and judging them????
> 
> Maybe I gave you too much credit when I said I didn't think you did it intentionally. It's starting to appear very intentional.


Because the thread started out by calling them ****ty and trashy, and several in the thread went from there. You aren't owed respect when you aren't giving it to other people. Like I said, there's a big difference between saying you didn't care for it, or thought it was inappropriate and just jumping to they are ****s, trashy, or hookers.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Dunkem said:


> Ya I said it, hookers, did not say that they were one, said they looked like one. I understand that these are talented women, but what about role models? Is this who you want your girls looking up to? My role model was my pa, my wifes was her mom. No disrespect for the 2 gals, but I didn't appreciate the show. ONE EYE that's my opinion and mine only!!.


Then teach your kids not to look up to them. Calling them.....oh sorry....saying they looked like hookers because their ideals don't fit yours is not a great. They can live their lives how they want and don't have to have the same exact values you might have. Doesn't make them hookers or ****ty.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

backcountry said:


> Would I want a child to have a role model like Shakira? Talented Grammy award winner? Successful 30 year career? Side business that has lasted a decade? Founded a charity that helps poor kids the last 20 years? Interested in her ethnic heritage like belly dancing and the music that accompanies it(a large part of her routine)(family from Lebanon)? Comfortable with her sexuality without letting it solely define her?
> 
> I'd be happy for that type of influence and perseverance.
> 
> I dare say Shakira's influence is healthier than men calling female performers and their stage routines "****ty", "trashy", "garbage" and stating they "look like hookers". I've worked with teenage girls, those types of names and terms damage them more than any female singer ever has. I know more than one woman who carries the burden of those names decades later. I can't name a single woman who has pointed to similar trauma from watching a female musician or stage performer.


Strange how values only matter.....sometimes. I recall one of the most influential and powerful people in the world leading this country currently who was caught on tape saying "I moved on her like a b***" or "I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. ... Grab them by the p***. You can do anything." Seems a bit worse than a dance routine/clothing that some of you are so offended by.


----------



## johnnycake

Dunkem said:


> I understand that these are talented women, but what about role models? Is this who you want your girls looking up to? My role model was my pa, my wifes was her mom. No disrespect for the 2 gals, but I didn't appreciate the show. ONE EYE that's my opinion and mine only!!.


Would I like my daughter to look up to a pair of women who after being born into poverty fought for and gained international success and fame in their chosen careers, while still contributing enormous sums to various charities? Would I like my daughter to look up to a pair of women who have carefully maintained their health and athleticism as they aged? Would I like my daughter to look up to a pair of women who are comfortable in their own skin and talents, and confident enough in themselves and their appearance to be willing to put it all out there in front of millions of people despite knowing that many of those viewers would be judging them harshly and casting aspersions of moral turpetude? Would I like my daughter to look up to a pair of women who are assertive, bold, and forceful of their self-identities? Would I like my daughter to look up to a pair of women who knowing not everybody would agree with their performance choices were still self-assured and confident enough to do it anyway haterz be [email protected]? Would I like my daughter to look up to a pair of women who are happy and satisfied with their lives and selves? Would I like my daughter to look up to a pair of women who are truly passionate about their careers?

Yes I would and do.

I want my daughter to live her life with confidence, passion, and a strong sense of self-worth. I want my daughter to live her life happy in who she is, what she chooses, and what she does. I want my daughter to have success in whatever it is she chooses to pursue in life, however that success may be defined.

As backcountry stated, fault for objectification lies with the objectifier. And I want my daughter to know and understand that in such a way that can't be shaken.

I thought I understood this issue quite well until recently when I had to check myself and reevaluate how I choose to view others actions. A friend of mine has a daughter that recently turned 18, and moved to L.A. to try to expand her modeling career. This is an incredible young woman who is compassionate, kind, thoughtful, and intelligent. She also happens to be 5'11" natural blonde, blue eyes, and is very athletic. Shortly after she moved, her parents were sharing links for friends and family to vote for their daughter in a modeling competition, with the winner getting to be on the cover of Maxim magazine and be featured. When I first clicked the link and saw the pictures I was floored that her parents were not only tolerating this, but truly supportive and doing their best to share it with everyone they knew.

That was an eye opening moment for me as I then looked at my 6 year old girl spinning around in her Princess Sofia ballgown on the kitchen floor. I then looked back at my friend's daughter's entry and saw those photos for what they were: her passion and hard work to achieve what she wants in life. And I saw her parents proudly supporting that pursuit. Those pictures suddenly were no longer the same as I had originally perceived them, and the parenting example from my friend and his wife profoundly changed my own prejudices and biases.


----------



## High Desert Elk

Dang, and all I did yesterday afternoon/evening was listen to the audio version of a historical book while tying wet flies and nymphs.

My priorities are definitely messed up!


----------



## Dunkem

Guys I have deleted all of my posts, as a mod it's pretty stupid of me to get involved with things like this, sorry if I offended anyone.


----------



## CPAjeff

This thread is pretty entertaining!

I have no dog in this fight as I didn't watch the halftime show, apparently I didn't miss much or maybe I did . . .


----------



## Vanilla

#1DEER 1-I said:


> You aren't owed respect when you aren't giving it to other people.


So, you're saying nobody owes you any respect here then? Fair enough.

You are attacking not only the people that have used words you find problematic, but a whole state of people that have nothing to do with this and haven't even commented. While some people here may have said things I don't agree with, your posts carry some bigoted undertones. That is equally or more troubling to anything else posted.



#1DEER 1-I said:


> Like I said, there's a big difference between saying you didn't care for it, or thought it was inappropriate and just jumping to they are ****s, trashy, or hookers.


To be clear, I haven't called Jennifer Lopez or Shakira anything in this thread, let alone the terms you are citing. I wasn't really entertained by the show. The music isn't my cup of tea, and the performance was a giant "meh" for me. Additionally, from my perspective, it didn't accomplish anything for the empowerment of women or girls. Others can feel free to disagree. If you think women are better off today because of it, great. If you loved it, fine. I won't degrade you or pretend I'm superior to you because I think you're wrong. It just means that we didn't see a stupid super bowl half time show the same way.

While you may think the words and descriptions used are bad and inappropriate, it certainly doesn't justify you doing the exact same thing.


----------



## Vanilla

CPAjeff said:


> This thread is pretty entertaining!
> 
> I have no dog in this fight as I didn't watch the halftime show, apparently I didn't miss much or maybe I did . . .


I assure you this thread is WAAAAY more entertaining than the show was.


----------



## Clarq

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Like seriously THIS IS WHY PEOPLE LOOK AT UTAH LIKE WE ARE ALL A BUNCH OF POS.


Serious question: Why concern yourself with with the opinions of a bunch of strangers, especially those who don't even live here? I can think of about a million things that are more important.

Just so my biases are clear, I'd actually be quite happy if everyone thought Utah was a terrible place. Maybe they'd stop moving in en mass, driving up house prices to the point no one who grew up here can buy one, increasing traffic, causing point creep, crowding the national parks, etc. That being said, all external signs indicate to me that Utah is looked upon very favorably by the rest of the country.

I'll also say that after thinking for several minutes, I can't recall one time in my adult life where anyone in Utah has been a judgmental ****** to me because of my "alternative" lifestyle choices. Maybe a sideways glance here or there... but that doesn't mean anything.

The common theme I see in your posts is the notion that insulting/being insulted means something. I would argue that the only meaning insults have are the meanings you give them. People can call me trashy/****ty all they want... I don't care. ;-)


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Vanilla said:


> So, you're saying nobody owes you any respect here then? Fair enough.
> 
> You are attacking not only the people that have used words you find problematic, but a whole state of people that have nothing to do with this and haven't even commented. While some people here may have said things I don't agree with, your posts carry some bigoted undertones. That is equally or more troubling to anything else posted.
> 
> To be clear, I haven't called Jennifer Lopez or Shakira anything in this thread, let alone the terms you are citing. I wasn't really entertained by the show. The music isn't my cup of tea, and the performance was a giant "meh" for me. Additionally, from my perspective, it didn't accomplish anything for the empowerment of women or girls. Others can feel free to disagree. If you think women are better off today because of it, great. If you loved it, fine. I won't degrade you or pretend I'm superior to you because I think you're wrong. It just means that we didn't see a stupid super bowl half time show the same way.
> 
> While you may think the words and descriptions used are bad and inappropriate, it certainly doesn't justify you doing the exact same thing.


I think what you've said is fine. Others in the thread are assholes. I am not saying everyone in the state is like that but those who are (and there's a lot of them, I've seen comments and heard plenty of comments from plenty of people as proof) are exactly why this place has the perception is does.

A month ago the Jazz traded for Clarkson. He has a lot of tattoos. In the comments (on Facebook anyway) had some pretty revealing comments after the entire state got called out for being racist a year earlier. "He looks like he just got out of prison" or "hey look at me I'm a thug". People here say these things and then wonder why they are called bigots or racist. You don't have to like tattoos, but it doesn't mean someone who does is a "thug" or just got out of prison. Same thing here. If you're response is to objectify these women or you're offended by the dance/clothing that's really on you and your thoughts. I think people here are generally good and generally very closed minded and not very accepting of people outside of the bubble they think is acceptable. And despite what some have said here, yes that perception is actually pretty damaging to the state. I know people within tech companies who have a very tough time recruiting the best talent to Utah because that is in fact how a hell of a lot of people view this place. I would rather that weren't so.

I hold some conservative beliefs and I also hold some liberal beliefs. I honestly believe everyone should be judged by the person they actually are not what you perceive them to be because they are different. I'm not great at getting my point across at times probably especially in these threads. I'm not necessarily offended by anything you said Gary, I just think a lot of people here should be a bit more open minded and less quick to judge. Most people here have good values and are good people, but can also be very closed minded. People who don't have those same values or lifestyle does not make them trashy or lesser in any way. They are also likely very good people, with family and friends and kids and do good in this world too. Different than what is normal to me or you doesn't make things wrong or bad. People grow up in different circumstance, different cultures, and with different values. One is not superior to the other just because it's different. And there is an attitude among a lot of people here that they believe their set of values are superior. It just gets old to see the "I'm better than you because" attitude.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Clarq said:


> Serious question: Why concern yourself with with the opinions of a bunch of strangers, especially those who don't even live here? I can think of about a million things that are more important.
> 
> Just so my biases are clear, I'd actually be quite happy if everyone thought Utah was a terrible place. Maybe they'd stop moving in en mass, driving up house prices to the point no one who grew up here can buy one, increasing traffic, causing point creep, crowding the national parks, etc. That being said, all external signs indicate to me that Utah is looked upon very favorably by the rest of the country.
> 
> I'll also say that after thinking for several minutes, I can't recall one time in my adult life where anyone in Utah has been a judgmental ****** to me because of my "alternative" lifestyle choices. Maybe a sideways glance here or there... but that doesn't mean anything.
> 
> The common theme I see in your posts is the notion that insulting/being insulted means something. I would argue that the only meaning insults have are the meanings you give them. People can call me trashy/****ty all they want... I don't care. ;-)


As far as concerning myself with what people think of the state, I would like people who want to come here or may have the opportunity to come here to feel comfortable doing so. Recruiting the best talent to Utah for employment can be difficult at times because of those perceptions of the place. I would like our state to have the best and smartest people we can working here and in our communities and there are times that is a hard thing to do because of the perception/attitudes here.


----------



## HunterTanner

Quote from Dictionary.com 
****[ sluht ]
noun
Disparaging and Offensive. a sexually promiscuous woman, or a woman who behaves or dresses in an overtly sexual way.

You can rant about Utah and it's better than you ways, but you if you try and argue that they weren't dressed in an "overtly sexual way", you're the fool not the people saying they were dressed like ****s. That's the textbook definition for ya pal. If anyone thinks that halftime show could be a positive thing for kids to watch by any stretch of the imagination ... good luck raising half decent children. I'm a 21 year old dude and I turned it off, that should say enough by itself


----------



## goosefreak

Oh, phew.. I’m grateful to just be an a$$hole. 

Vanilla is right! The hypocrisy is flourishing in this thread!


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

HunterTanner said:


> Quote from Dictionary.com
> ****[ sluht ]
> noun
> Disparaging and Offensive. a sexually promiscuous woman, or a woman who behaves or dresses in an overtly sexual way.
> 
> You can rant about Utah and it's better than you ways, but you if you try and argue that they weren't dressed in an "overtly sexual way", you're the fool not the people saying they were dressed like ****s. That's the textbook definition for ya pal. If anyone thinks that halftime show could be a positive thing for kids to watch by any stretch of the imagination ... good luck raising half decent children. I'm a 21 year old dude and I turned it off, that should say enough by itself


Yes all of this tells plenty of how you objectify women. This shows much more about you than them. The fact you think it means sex doesn't mean that's the intent of it. Sorry. Your line of thinking is text book exactly what I'm talking about.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

goosefreak said:


> Oh, phew.. I'm grateful to just be an a$$hole.
> 
> Vanilla is right! The hypocrisy is flourishing in this thread!


I'm a hypocrite at times yes and it's fine to call that out. I also hope you can keep an open enough mind to consider what you perceive something to be might not actually be the case.


----------



## goosefreak

#1DEER 1-I said:


> goosefreak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, phew.. I'm grateful to just be an a$$hole.
> 
> Vanilla is right! The hypocrisy is flourishing in this thread!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a hypocrite at times yes and it's fine to call that out. I also hope you can keep an open enough mind to consider what you perceive something to be might not actually be the case.
Click to expand...

And I would echo that back to you..


----------



## Vanilla

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I'm a hypocrite at times yes and it's fine to call that out. I also hope you can keep an open enough mind to consider what you perceive something to be might not actually be the case.


Agreed. And I'll ask you to consider your comments about our great state and the great people that live here in that EXACT same spirit. 1Deer, I hate to break it to ya, but the most closed mind I've read in this thread is yours. Moving on...

You say that the perception of Utahns is damaging to our state. How? I will call that out as complete and utter BS!

Is that the perception that has led to the low numbers of people moving here and companies coming here? Is it the perception that has led to the terrible economic state we find ourselves in because nobody out of the state will do business here? Is it the perception that has caused our tourism numbers to drop like a lead balloon?

Tell us, 1Deer. Where exactly is this "perception" that YOU perceive is there hurting the state? Maybe that's where all our mule deer went? They left to more "open minded" places like California and New York?

And I'm with Clarq. Keep telling everyone how terrible this place is!!!


----------



## HunterTanner

Alright so if we're to be civilized about it instead of everyone just running around name calling and trying to call people out, @#1 Deer what would you consider sexual? 
On a pole in public wearing little clothing I personal would qualify in this category. If you have a different definition of what dressing in a sexual way is that you think would NOT qualify them in this category, that's cool by me I'm just interested to hear what your definition of it might be.


----------



## johnnycake

HunterTanner said:


> Alright so if we're to be civilized about it instead of everyone just running around name calling and trying to call people out, @#1 Deer what would you consider sexual?
> _*On a pole in public wearing little clothing I personal would qualify in this category.*_ If you have a different definition of what dressing in a sexual way is that you think would NOT qualify them in this category, that's cool by me I'm just interested to hear what your definition of it might be.


I am not who you asked to respond, but I'll do so anyways!

Based on this post, it appears you are missing the point that 1eye and others are making: the viewer of the clothing (or lack thereof) on another individual is not the person who decides whether the wearer is "dressing in a sexual way." In order to know if Shakira or JLo intended to be perceived as acting sexually or with an intent to arouse, your opinion, my opinion or anybody other than Shakira and JLo's opinions mean nothing.

Did Shakira and JLo put on a sexually provocative performance? Maybe, maybe not. You'd have to ask them. If you were bothered by it because you chose to view it sexually, that says something about you and not the performers.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

HunterTanner said:


> Alright so if we're to be civilized about it instead of everyone just running around name calling and trying to call people out, @#1 Deer what would you consider sexual?
> On a pole in public wearing little clothing I personal would qualify in this category. If you have a different definition of what dressing in a sexual way is that you think would NOT qualify them in this category, that's cool by me I'm just interested to hear what your definition of it might be.


Let me put it to you this way. In other parts of the world women aren't allowed to show anything but their face in public because if they show more than that it's seen as "too sexual". Apparently you hold the same opinion you just differ on the type of clothing. If a woman is just a sex object then your comments mean something. A woman is not just a sex object and you don't get to decide it's all about sex just because that's the way you see her because of the type of clothing she's wearing. You're the one viewing it sexually.


----------



## middlefork

HunterTanner said:


> Alright so if we're to be civilized about it instead of everyone just running around name calling and trying to call people out, @#1 Deer what would you consider sexual?
> On a pole in public wearing little clothing I personal would qualify in this category. If you have a different definition of what dressing in a sexual way is that you think would NOT qualify them in this category, that's cool by me I'm just interested to hear what your definition of it might be.


Naked on a pole = sexual
clothed on a pole = athletic

Sorry close your eyes or turn it off if it offends you.

People have no problems supporting the Expo because they don't want to loose an opportunity for a tag. They are also supporting the whole "Super Bowl experience" by watching.

Don't like what happens at the Super Bowl don't support it. Pretty simple.
If those that are offended did not know who the performers were going to be then you are truly living in a bubble.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Vanilla said:


> Agreed. And I'll ask you to consider your comments about our great state and the great people that live here in that EXACT same spirit. 1Deer, I hate to break it to ya, but the most closed mind I've read in this thread is yours. Moving on...
> 
> You say that the perception of Utahns is damaging to our state. How? I will call that out as complete and utter BS!
> 
> Is that the perception that has led to the low numbers of people moving here and companies coming here? Is it the perception that has led to the terrible economic state we find ourselves in because nobody out of the state will do business here? Is it the perception that has caused our tourism numbers to drop like a lead balloon?
> 
> Tell us, 1Deer. Where exactly is this "perception" that YOU perceive is there hurting the state? Maybe that's where all our mule deer went? They left to more "open minded" places like California and New York?
> 
> And I'm with Clarq. Keep telling everyone how terrible this place is!!!


I've seen it, heard it, and there's even some in this thread. It's not perception on my behalf I've lived here a very long time. Some of the perception is true.


----------



## johnnycake

HunterTanner said:


> Quote from Dictionary.com
> ****[ sluht ]
> noun
> Disparaging and Offensive.
> 
> that should say enough by itself


Fixed it for you.


----------



## Vanilla

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I've seen it, heard it, and there's even some in this thread. It's not perception on my behalf I've lived here a very long time. Some of the perception is true.


Didn't answer my question. If it's hurting our state like you claim, you should be able to show where.

I think you're full of it. Completely full of it. Show me where I'm am wrong. Where are we hurting so badly with this perception you insist exists?

Ever think this is just YOUR perception?


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Vanilla said:


> Didn't answer my question. If it's hurting our state like you claim, you should be able to show where.
> 
> I think you're full of it. Completely full of it. Show me where I'm am wrong. Where are we hurting so badly with this perception you insist exists?
> 
> Ever think this is just YOUR perception?


Go ask those hiring for tech companies in the state if they have trouble getting the best talent. They will tell you that it is an issue at times. It goes beyond that but start there. And no it's not my perception, go read anything that mentions this state and you'll find the comments that fit with exactly what I've mentioned.


----------



## backcountry

I think the line crossed for me by 1-I was definitely the gross stereotype of all Utahns and the insult. I've gotten use to the Bill Maher type jabs but I don't think most Utahns deserve the name calling. But make no mistake, everyone I know whose done hiring, including myself, has lost recipients because of a puritanical reputation. And not just reputation but first hand experience while doing on site interviews. Some of its earned and represented by comments here, much of it isn't (see my disdain for Maher, a regular offender who uses gross stereotypes). Not inherently good or bad for the state but businesses and consumers are affected. 

Per Dunkem... I'm not offended so easily. I don't take much personally on the internet. I do care passionately about some subjects, like this. And I can separate the person from the comment, especially you, who I've witnessed more often than not be one of the most tactful users.

I can 100% support families creating values themselves and homes that honor those values. I can even support people doing things like consumer boycotts even if I'm skeptical of their impact. But as 1-I clarified, there is a big difference between living ones values and name calling like we've seen here. There is a big difference between an opinion about how it relates to personally held values and assuming the worst of women who behave differently. As the definition used highlights, the term ****ty and/or **** rely heavily on a presumption of promiscuity and all the baggage that carries with it.

I sure hope the women in your lives don't get **** shamed as we've seen here. Because it won't be done based upon your or their values but upon the presumptions of the people throwing the insults. Those are terms and insults lobbed at women of all stripes of sexuality, including virgins and the most conservative of dressers, by people trying to exert control over their bodies and behavior. I recommend people sit down and sincerely talk to women about how such language has polluted their lives without any connection to their actual behavior; it's pretty disheartening. 

As men we can do much better.


----------



## goosefreak

I honestly could care less if J-Lo and Shakira want to “shake it down” parts of it was sexual, plain and obvious. Just like the rapper fake slapping dat azz! Now tell me, was that part of the athleticism? 

My biggest issue with it is putting it on national TV. I get it, I don’t have to watch it, yadda yadda but, why can’t we ever have a performance that is fitting for all groups of people, and not just the “pop” group of people. 

And last years performance with Adam Levine, once the shirt came off, I felt objectified!! #metoo


----------



## Vanilla

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Go ask those hiring for tech companies in the state if they have trouble getting the best talent. They will tell you that it is an issue at times. It goes beyond that but start there. And no it's not my perception, go read anything that mentions this state and you'll find the comments that fit with exactly what I've mentioned.


So I have to go do interviews and research to prove YOUR assertion? Uhhhh, yeah. That's not how it works. I can't prove a negative anyway.

Yep, you're full of it. Take your bigotry elsewhere. It's no more welcome than any other comment on here that is perceived as offensive.


----------



## Packout

Some random thoughts.

Bigots rarely recognize they are bigots.

The riders of high horses rarely think their horse is the tallest.

To say a person can do as they wish and it is always the observant's fault if they misinterpret those actions is folly. Actions have meanings and the interpretations of such are not always the one in the wrong. 

Jordan Clarkson is a good man, a great player, and I hope he enjoys his tattoos. 

Shakira is one of my favorites. I lived in Colombia for a while and she lives her culture- anyone who spent time in Barranquilla or with Costenos would understand it is a much more open culture than 90% of the US. They wear less clothes and are way more fun/open than most Americans. 

Utahns weren't the only ones questioning the appropriateness of the halftime show.

And after all the name calling on this thread with no repercussion, I expect Deerkiller will be reinstated soon.


----------



## ridgetop

1eye, I hope you didn't get too offended by me calling you a liberal. It was more tongue and check than anything. I figured you would have embraced the compliment. Thanks everyone for keeping the discussion civil. It's interesting to see the different perspectives.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Vanilla said:


> So I have to go do interviews and research to prove YOUR assertion? Uhhhh, yeah. That's not how it works. I can't prove a negative anyway.
> 
> Yep, you're full of it. Take your bigotry elsewhere. It's no more welcome than any other comment on here that is perceived as offensive.


I know some of these people who do the hiring and all I can do is relay their message. If you want to hear it from them yes you can ask them. First step in solving a problem is admitting you have one, and there is plenty of bigotry to go around in this state when it comes to other cultures and lifestyles that are different from the predominant one and yes it does negatively impact the state including economically.


----------



## johnnycake

Vanilla said:


> So I have to go do interviews and research to prove YOUR assertion? Uhhhh, yeah. That's not how it works. I can't prove a negative anyway.
> 
> Yep, you're full of it. Take your bigotry elsewhere. It's no more welcome than any other comment on here that is perceived as offensive.


Here's a source with two examples of the type of thing 1 eye ineloquently was describing: 
https://www.sltrib.com/news/education/2019/11/11/two-science-societies/

Is BYU representative "all of Utah"? Nope, not really. But BYU does embody, for better or worse many of the generalizations that hurt Utah's ability to attract top talent from outside the state.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

ridgetop said:


> 1eye, I hope you didn't get too offended by me calling you a liberal. It was more tongue and check than anything. I figured you would have embraced the compliment. Thanks everyone for keeping the discussion civil. It's interesting to see the different perspectives.


I do hold some liberal viewpoints, I don't mind it. I also hold some conservatives ones. There are things I disagree with both liberals and conservatives. The left goes too far on social issues at times, but the right wants to ignore things and pretend racism and bigotry are not a real issue when they are as well. I think we can all find ways to be more understanding of each others differences instead of assuming the worst of people and calling them terrible things. I did some of it here, I apologize, but I wish people were more understanding and open minded to these conversations. I don't have an issue with Mormon values of dressing, swearing, or drinking or whatever. But when you automatically assume that because someone doesn't share those values you get to run them down, I find that to be pretty ****ty of the person doing it. I don't necessarily think saying calling someone ****ty or a thug is right just because they don't fit in your ideal world of values.


----------



## Clarq

backcountry said:


> But make no mistake, everyone I know whose done hiring, including myself, has lost recipients because of a puritanical reputation. And not just reputation but first hand experience while doing on site interviews.


I'm sure it's happened, but you can't condemn Utah for that without also considering the other side.

For every one potential hire at my company that we "lose" because of the Utah culture, we probably "gain" five who are attracted to Utah because of its family-friendly and relatively wholesome culture, incredible recreational opportunities, climate, safety, educational opportunities, diversity, welcoming atmosphere, etc.

Sure, not everyone is going to like Utah or the people who live here. But I'm not going to be alarmed because a few bitter tech executives can't poach as many high-caliber Californians for employees as they would like. Our massive growth and huge tourism industry are a pretty clear indicators that Utah is not alienating the masses.


----------



## one4fishing

Wow 93 posts about this on a hunting and fishing forum. I read the posts for a bit and tried to enjoy or take away something from them but ........ 
I decided I'd just scroll to the bottom. It took a while. 
Y'all need to take up chukar hunting.


----------



## ridgetop

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I do hold some liberal viewpoints, I don't mind it. I also hold some conservatives ones. There are things I disagree with both liberals and conservatives. The left goes too far on social issues at times, but the right wants to ignore things and pretend racism and bigotry are not a real issue when they are as well. I think we can all find ways to be more understanding of each others differences instead of assuming the worst of people and calling them terrible things. I did some of it here, I apologize, but I wish people were more understanding and open minded to these conversations. I don't have an issue with Mormon values of dressing, swearing, or drinking or whatever. But when you automatically assume that because someone doesn't share those values you get to run them down, I find that to be pretty ****ty of the person doing it. I don't necessarily think saying calling someone ****ty or a thug is right just because they don't fit in your ideal world of values.


You didn't re-read the OP did you. It's really pretty short. Read the title and then the 1st post. You have such a chip on your shoulder and want so badly to read between the lines when there's nothing there to read. If someone were to ask me to give two words to discribe the show. It sure wouldn't be inpowering or inspiring for women.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

ridgetop said:


> You didn't re-read the OP did you. It's really pretty short. Read the title and then the 1st post. You have such a chip on your shoulder and want so badly to read between the lines when there's nothing there to read. If someone were to ask me to give two words to discribe the show. It sure wouldn't be inpowering or inspiring for women.


I was not just replying to you.


----------



## Vanilla

#1DEER 1-I said:


> First step in solving a problem is admitting you have one, and there is plenty of bigotry to go around in this state when it comes to other cultures and lifestyles that are different from the predominant one and yes it does negatively impact the state including economically.


https://www.richstatespoorstates.org/states/UT/

Hurting the economy. Ha! Here is my proof, where is yours?

Anecdotes are great. We should build policy on those for sure. What could go wrong?


----------



## Critter

opcorn::grouphug:opcorn:


----------



## backcountry

Clarq said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> 
> But make no mistake, everyone I know whose done hiring, including myself, has lost recipients because of a puritanical reputation. And not just reputation but first hand experience while doing on site interviews.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure it's happened, but you can't condemn Utah for that without also considering the other side.
> 
> For every one potential hire at my company that we "lose" because of the Utah culture, we probably "gain" five who are attracted to Utah because of its family-friendly and relatively wholesome culture, incredible recreational opportunities, climate, safety, educational opportunities, diversity, welcoming atmosphere, etc.
> 
> Sure, not everyone is going to like Utah or the people who live here. But I'm not going to be alarmed because a few bitter tech executives can't poach as many high-caliber Californians for employees as they would like. Our massive growth and huge tourism industry are a pretty clear indicators that Utah is not alienating the masses.
Click to expand...

No doubt, hence my claim that it's not inherently good or bad for the state.

I'm not in tech. My personal experiences and those of friends and coworkers are across multiple industries like education, land management and tourism.

I love Utah, we chose to make it our home despite negative personal and professional experiences. The good still outweighs the bad. But we definitely experienced first-hand how such reputations develop ( and then become exaggerated). We experienced tons of invasive questioning and stigma. We got over it but it leaves an indelible mark. The irony is I probably spend more time defending Utah than criticizing it, though it's not as noticeable on this forum.

Every place I've lived you take the good with the bad. Not sure grass is much greener elsewhere. And it comes from a place of caring about "here". I've watched too many friends leave the state because it became too much. Good, quality people. I think 1-Is concerns sound like they come from a similar place even if I disagree with the stereotype employed.

So it is. I still assume most people are good natured. Most of us make misteps without realizing the impact. Hence the consistency of involvement in these topics. Big difference between disagreeing with something (done or stated) and judging the character of the people involved.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Vanilla said:


> https://www.richstatespoorstates.org/states/UT/
> 
> Hurting the economy. Ha! Here is my proof, where is yours?
> 
> Anecdotes are great. We should build policy on those for sure. What could go wrong?


I'm sorry but policy? This has nothing to do with policy. This has to do with individuals, how welcoming we are. The stigma we have and the talent we can attract. I never once said anything about policy. Is there a reason you're so resistant to the thought that we might could be a bit more accepting and open minded here in Utah? Don't get me wrong we do a lot of things right, we also have a lot to improve on and it's okay to discuss those things. I went overboard, as I usually do with some of my comments here, but I think this discussion is worthwhile.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

backcountry said:


> No doubt, hence my claim that it's not inherently good or bad for the state.
> 
> I'm not in tech. My personal experiences and those of friends and coworkers are across multiple industries like education, land management and tourism.
> 
> I love Utah, we chose to make it our home despite negative personal and professional experiences. The good still outweighs the bad. But we definitely experienced first-hand how such reputations develop ( and then become exaggerated). We experienced tons of invasive questioning and stigma. We got over it but it leaves an indelible mark. The irony is I probably spend more time defending Utah than criticizing it, though it's not as noticeable on this forum.
> 
> Every place I've lived you take the good with the bad. Not sure grass is much greener elsewhere. And it comes from a place of caring about "here". I've watched too many friends leave the state because it became too much. Good, quality people. I think 1-Is concerns sound like they come from a similar place even if I disagree with the stereotype employed.
> 
> So it is. I still assume most people are good natured. Most of us make misteps without realizing the impact. Hence the consistency of involvement in these topics. Big difference between disagreeing with something (done or stated) and judging the character of the people involved.


Most people are good, but the stigma exists and is perpetuated by things like have been said within this very thread. There's some legitimacy to the stereotype. That doesn't mean everyone or always, but there's proof of it right here in this thread.


----------



## Vanilla

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Is there a reason you're so resistant to the thought that we might could be a bit more accepting and open minded here in Utah? Don't get me wrong we do a lot of things right, we also have a lot to improve on and it's okay to discuss those things.


If this would have been your comment all along, I wouldn't have even replied to you. This above is a FAR cry from "Grow up Utah, you are a bunch of judgmental A holes!" So yes, there is a reason I was resistant. Your comment was crap. It carried bigoted undertones. And finally, it was wrong. But I've already given you those reasons so not sure why you are asking for my reason for resistance.



#1DEER 1-I said:


> I went overboard, as I usually do with some of my comments here, but I think this discussion is worthwhile.


Yep, you did, and you were wrong. The discussion is worthwhile, I agree, but your degrading and inaccurate comments were not worthwhile. But, now I can move on.

--

Fellas, calling a woman a "****" ain't cool. I don't see anything wrong with saying the performance was trashy. But we probably ought to not be walking around calling women "****s" anymore. I'm not a big PC guy, personally, but there are some words that I would be okay with if we just retired them. That is probably one of them for me. It's damaging on many levels, and there are other ways to more effectively get the message across.

On the other side, to suggest that this performance isn't damaging to some tells me there is a lack of understanding of women as sex symbols in pop culture and the effect that has had on teenage (and even younger) girls for decades now. A false portrayal of what makes one powerful and valuable has been a direct focus of professionals that deal with these types of issues in women and girls for many, many years. So yes, a performance like that being celebrated as "empowering" could be quite damaging to young women on a large scale. I really don't care if they do another one just like it next year. I won't lose sleep over it, and my life will go on pretty much as normal, but let's please not pretend that it can't and won't do damage to young girls and even older women for something like that to be celebrated as what gives a women value and power. That message of value and empowerment is certainly not the one I want to give my three daughters.

They should just have Bruno Mars and Lady Gaga rotate who is performing every year. I don't even like either of their music, and was thoroughly entertained by both.

Peace out!


----------



## brisket

It’s difficult to hire local tech talent right now, let alone out of state. The market is ridiculously hot, akin to the tech bubble of the late 90’s. That’s the number one reason it’s currently difficult to hire.

Tech companies don’t want to come here? Really? #1eye, when was the last time you drove past Thanksgiving Point? Take a look at all the new office buildings built in the last several years mostly occupied by tech companies. How about all the new offices in Draper? Companies like to relocate or build satellite offices here because of the excellent local talent, favorable business tax policies and lower salaries. Some big names like Adobe, Oracle, Microsoft, Amazon all have a presence in Utah not to mention some great local companies, Podium, HireVue, WorkFront, Saltstack, Vivint SmartHome, Vivint Solar, Ancestry, Entrata, Grow, Jane, Jive, Lucid Software, Weave, MX, Solutionreach, Kuali, Overstock, Pluralsight, Nuvi, Qualtrics, and the list goes on and on. They don’t call it Silicon Slopes for nothing.


----------



## caddis8

Leaving the "Utah Bubble" has been one of the great blessings of my life. I still love Utah, it's beauty, and it's people.

However, I wonder how many people who talk about Utah being closed minded, bigoted, closed off, etc. have actually lived outside of the state to develop another opinion. Many of the people I have dealt with across the country think very similarly. That is who people are! We're human. We make mistakes. We use our experiences in our life to make judgement calls on the way we see it.

I have watched a few Book of Face comment threads from some of my friends (one very good friend is a preacher for a community church). Those words weren't used (and I'm glad because I don't like those words at all). There were many who did not appreciate the *content* of the halftime show. I don't know what the *intent* was for those performers and I'll have to assume they're trying their best- because that's what I'm doing. If we're all trying our best and assume everyone else is, then we remove a lot of the air in the room to criticize others.

Regarding thugs- because this one bothers me a little bit. I couldn't care about tattoos. I don't care for them. But I don't care for needles. Wouldn't ever get one because as my preacher friend put it, the fire breathing dragon of death ends up looking like the puking cat of regret with age. I put the name thug in a sports context on someone who exhibits thuggish behavior. For example, the horrible helmet swinging fight between the Browns and the Steelers. That was horrible. The fight between Kansas and Kansas St (I think it was K- State) that was horrible. The horrible fight with Ron Artest and others several years ago was thuggish. Sports cheapshots and the crap attitudes are thuggish behaviors- and guess who watches all of it? Kids.

I referee basketball for fun and to get a little extra money for hunting pursuits so it doesn't come out of family income. The talent level does not match the attitude, and many of them are just mimicking what they watch. Moral of the story, what we do matters because someone is watching- whether we know it or not or whether we like it or not. Lots of people saw the halftime show- I turned it off after I saw a few seconds and had my boys watching the game with me- I have had many conversations with my boys that women are not objects and are a lot more than something to be looked at for our pleasure. They're a lot more than that. I just didn't want to have that conversation when the *content* suggested otherwise.


----------



## ridgetop

Vanilla said:


> If this would have been your comment all along, I wouldn't have even replied to you. This above is a FAR cry from "Grow up Utah, you are a bunch of judgmental A holes!" So yes, there is a reason I was resistant. Your comment was crap. It carried bigoted undertones. And finally, it was wrong. But I've already given you those reasons so not sure why you are asking for my reason for resistance.
> 
> Yep, you did, and you were wrong. The discussion is worthwhile, I agree, but your degrading and inaccurate comments were not worthwhile. But, now I can move on.
> 
> --
> 
> Fellas, calling a woman a "****" ain't cool. I don't see anything wrong with saying the performance was trashy. But we probably ought to not be walking around calling women "****s" anymore. I'm not a big PC guy, personally, but there are some words that I would be okay with if we just retired them. That is probably one of them for me. It's damaging on many levels, and there are other ways to more effectively get the message across.
> 
> On the other side, to suggest that this performance isn't damaging to some tells me there is a lack of understanding of women as sex symbols in pop culture and the effect that has had on teenage (and even younger) girls for decades now. A false portrayal of what makes one powerful and valuable has been a direct focus of professionals that deal with these types of issues in women and girls for many, many years. So yes, a performance like that being celebrated as "empowering" could be quite damaging to young women on a large scale. I really don't care if they do another one just like it next year. I won't lose sleep over it, and my life will go on pretty much as normal, but let's please not pretend that it can't and won't do damage to young girls and even older women for something like that to be celebrated as what gives a women value and power. That message of value and empowerment is certainly not the one I want to give my three daughters.
> 
> They should just have Bruno Mars and Lady Gaga rotate who is performing every year. I don't even like either of their music, and was thoroughly entertained by both.
> 
> Peace out!


I'll take back my "****ty" performance comment. How about I replace it with sleezy and pornographic?


----------



## PBH

people keep throwing terms out there, and those terms are important:

A. Intent: a usually clearly formulated or planned intention.
B. Intention: a determination to act in a certain way.
C. Perception: a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression.



What we intend may not be what was perceived.

"I didn't mean it"

Which one is right? Maybe both, maybe neither.


What I know: I dread Super Bowl halftime shows and NBA All-Star weekend. I'm not into the "hip-hop" scene. I like sports and sporting events -- I never did like Solid Gold, American Bandstand, MTV, American Idol, etc. So I'll probably just keep complaining about these sporting events / leagues that continue to try to meld them with the music entertainment industry.


----------



## PBH

speaking of which -- why is it always hip-hop? Why can't we get Metallica? Five Finger Death Punch? Shinedown? Pink Floyd? Jimmy Page? *GRETA VAN FLEET*?!


----------



## caddis8

PBH said:


> speaking of which -- why is it always hip-hop? Why can't we get Metallica? Five Finger Death Punch? Shinedown? Pink Floyd? Jimmy Page? *GRETA VAN FLEET*?!


No kidding. I'm not too sure about Five Finger Death Punch, but I could go with some of the others. Or MoTab could put on a special performance for #1Deer?


----------



## RandomElk16

This went 11 pages? And my meme wasn't liked?


What the hell. Someone give me the cliff notes. Did conservatives become the snowflakes? Isn't every superbowl like this? I care, but not enough to read the last 9 pages.


----------



## PBH

caddis8 said:


> I'm not too sure about Five Finger Death Punch, but I could go with some of the others.


I can't handle much of their stuff, but some of it is really good!

check out some of their cover songs: Blue on Black, Gone Away, Bad Company

FWIW -- if you haven't listened to Greta Van Fleet, you should! These guys are a real throwback to good old Rock and Roll!


----------



## CPAjeff

RandomElk16 said:


> This went 11 pages? And my meme wasn't liked?
> 
> What the hell. Someone give me the cliff notes. Did conservatives become the snowflakes? Isn't every superbowl like this? I care, but not enough to read the last 9 pages.


I went back and 'liked' your meme - I would hate to be considered as closed-off, narrow-minded, etc. Even when Steve Buscemi played a dirty trapper in one of the greatest movies ever (i.e. Lonesome Dove).

Wait, is calling someone dirty a bad thing?? I'm confused.


----------



## CPAjeff

PBH said:


> I can't handle much of their stuff, but some of it is really good!
> 
> check out some of their cover songs: Blue on Black, Gone Away, Bad Company


Agreed! Don't forget - I Apologize

TOTP!


----------



## backcountry

I would be completely happy never to see Coldplay or Maroon 5 ever again on the halftime show. 

Hip hop's influence on pop culture is still what sells. Like PBH, I'd assume the halftime show just disappear. But I've found the entire affair boring for a while. Nor am I going to sit and watch commercials for entertainment that are sophisticatedly designed to sell me something I don't need or even want.

I think sleezy and pornographic are just as problematic because I think the root is still policing women's sexuality. People have every privilege to make those statements but if the goal is fostering healthy young women then lots of evidence shows such language is harmful. They are likely to hear it themselves no matter how demure they are.

Glad to hear tons of us are trying to talk to young men about objectification. Same for encouraging young women to validate themselves through more than just external concepts of sexuality. As another person highlighted though, someone like Shakira is actually living her cultural and ethnic values and traditions. Hence why sleezy and pornographic are harmful. It was a show in Miami, Florida by two Latina whose dance and dress traditions are more permissive than much of Utah and our country. Policing that in the way we see is also objectification ironically as it ignores their agency and values, ie they are being more than just sexual. To only see that as the take away is our choice. 

I'm shocked no one is highlighting some of the imagery. Kids in cages? Interplay of Puerto Rican and American flag during "Born in the USA"? Some pretty bold elements in a city heavily influenced by Latino culture and inherently embroiled in modern politics. Given the control both of them have over their career I would wager it was at least one of their designs if not both of them. 

*PS...men have been grabbing their crotch, making thrusting movements and going on stage with less clothing for ages. We rarely hear such outrage.


----------



## caddis8

backcountry said:


> I'm shocked no one is highlighting some of the imagery. Kids in cages? Interplay of Puerto Rican and American flag during "Born in the USA"? Some pretty bold elements in a city heavily influenced by Latino culture and inherently embroiled in modern politics. Given the control both of them have over their career I would wager it was at least one of their designs if not both of them.


Didn't see it, so I can't comment. Shakira has been very politically active, so it wouldn't surprise me. I don't love on either side the overt political commentary on entertainment. Leave it out. It's not going to happen, but it wouldn't be terrible to not have to filter and explain some of the not so subtle political statements to my kids.



backcountry said:


> *PS...men have been grabbing their crotch, making thrusting movements and going on stage with less clothing for ages. We rarely hear such outrage.


It's always been gross to me. Except Wayne's World. That was gross and funny. And maybe Chris Farley for Chippendale. But heaven help us if there was objectification there!


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> speaking of which -- why is it always hip-hop? Why can't we get Metallica?


Dude, who are you and what did you do with PBH? You're dropping some wisdom this week!

Metallica would absolutely kill a super bowl half time show. I have been present the last two times they played SLC, and man, they are just incredible live.

Here is my vote for Metallica in 2021. James Hetfield and Jerry Jones on the podium with the Lombardi Trophy after the game together would bring tears of joy to my eyes!


----------



## RandomElk16

CPAjeff said:


> I went back and 'liked' your meme - I would hate to be considered as closed-off, narrow-minded, etc. Even when Steve Buscemi played a dirty trapper in one of the greatest movies ever (i.e. Lonesome Dove).
> 
> Wait, is calling someone dirty a bad thing?? I'm confused.


----------



## RandomElk16

The Who was one of my favorites in recent memory. Them and the Peppers.


I like bands that don't have to lip sync, and don't sound like **** when they actually sing live.


----------



## Catherder

backcountry said:


> I would be completely happy never to see Coldplay or Maroon 5 ever again on the halftime show.


I liked Coldplay. 

+1 for Metallica though.


----------



## PBH




----------



## wyoming2utah

I saw where Dee Snider--you know the front man for Twisted Sister--complained about how these big athletic venues and contests are always using rock anthems during games such as "We're not gonna take it" yet these same types of rock bands never are asked to do the half time show (Can you imagine Twisted Sister for half time?).

But, I think he makes a strong point...why can't they get someone like Def Leppard to do a good rock half time. They are as close to pop metal and mainstream as any rock group and would put on a heck of a show!

I'm tired of the fake singing and dance shows.


----------



## CPAjeff

If, and that is a giant IF, the 'BOYZ ever make it to the Superbowl, George Strait should play the halftime show.

One of his songs, _If It Wasn't For Texas_ even says,

"No cowboys in the Superbowl"

THAT is a Superbowl halftime show I'd watch!


----------



## caddis8

I would root for the Cowboys even to see that. And that takes a lot. But, all joking and digs aside from PBH, I don't see that happening very soon.


----------



## wyoming2utah

I can't believe I'm saying this, but even George Strait is better than the crap we watched this year...


----------



## Fowlmouth

Seems like the NFL apologized right after the Janet Jackson thing, and part of the apology was wanting to create and maintain a family friendly show for all. Well, there's been a bunch of garbage halftime shows since, either sexual in nature, political or both. Whatever, Tom Petty is still my favorite show.


----------



## scartinez

Love hearing the word Morals when it comes to judging someone else. That's not our place.
I thought the show was fine. Not a whole lot different then the same shows you see at any half time event as far as scandalous clothing. Or any of the crap you see on the same TV you were watching the game on. No different morally then supporting a bunch of dudes paid to try and put people in the hospital.


----------



## Slockem

I didn't know we could use the word ******* on this forum but since apparently we can...#1 deer, you are an *******!!


----------



## backcountry

One mom's opinion I read today:

https://whatsupmoms.com/parenting/s...DPsx99joIPC8zRRyTFlOyVbutWptTSuzoziGv9AIkLOII


----------



## Vanilla

Can’t we just stick with Metallica playing next year for the Cowboys super bowl victory? That’s a much more pleasant topic.


----------



## caddis8

backcountry said:


> One mom's opinion I read today:
> 
> https://whatsupmoms.com/parenting/s...DPsx99joIPC8zRRyTFlOyVbutWptTSuzoziGv9AIkLOII


This is a good perspective. I with agree with most of it. However, my response to some of this would be simply this. To say that some of the content (went back and watched the whole thing so I can say I watched and have a modicum of credibility) was not sexual in nature is a stretch.

I actually though Skakira's part was not inapropriate for children. I didn't find it distasteful, nor sexualized. There is a lot of dancing, and latin dancing is pretty sensual in nature, therefore I thought it wasn't too bad given the cultural context.

As far a J-Lo's section goes, I don't think anyone could argue that that wasn't intended to send a sexualized message. Stripper pole, grinding with whatever his name was, him slapping or pretending to slap her rear end, etc. was clearly that. My argument is, that was sexual in nature and content, and therefore, in my view, inappropriate for children. That's it. There were clearly some political statements made, but that didn't bother me too much.

Those ladies clearly are very talented and can dance better than most. Singing talent, kind of. But, they have talent and good for them. They are strong women- literally, no way I could (if I had the ability) move that way, nor do I have the core strength. It would be a very ugly site for me to do anything in that realm of movement. No such thing as mind soap if someone saw me do that.

Overall, empowering? Maybe? Talent? Yes. I don't think J-Lo's part was appropriate for my or any children. That's all.

I don't agree with Ben Shapiro on much because he takes such a hard stance on most things and there are nuances to a lot of things. But he had a good piece on the halftime show.


----------



## backcountry

I've appreciated your comments. Hard to disagree with personal preferences for someone's own children. 

I also believe it's fair to interpret sexuality in the dance routine. I don't know intent but there were some moves and imagery that I think fits that bill. To the bigger theme of the thread that's were I disagree with many. I don't see sexuality as inherently what others are saying. I'd probably be fine with kids watching said show even if I understand why other wouldn't. I'd rather have an open conversation next to them about what J Lo did, how it relates to my/their/our values and how other might interpret it. I'd probably also talk to them, at an "appropriate" age, about some of the language used here, which what I think the article deals with well. I would hope to raise a child that could respect themselves while also seeing how others might behave differently without using some of the words we've seen deployed here.

I'll listen to Shapiro. I disagree with him about 80% of the time but try to listen to him 1-2 times a week to understand our disparate views. 

Thx for thoughtful response.


----------



## PBH

I don't care about the morals, the imagery, the intent, the politics, or the values. I can handle discussing all of this with my own kids.

I just can't handle watching that crap!! Why do we have to suffer through hip-hop garbage every year??? Obviously, ratings are the issue.

All of us 40 year old fat and bald white males tune in to watch a football game, and get turned off when the hip-hop party starts.

Everyone else in America (apparently) tunes in for the hip-hop party and commercials, while being annoyed that there happens to be a football game happening in between.


something is wrong with America. 


Dear Lord, please bless this mess with a Cowboys appearance in a near future Super Bowl, accompanied by Metallica at halftime. Do it for the children's sake. In the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Amen.

P.S. Please help the Jazz. We all know they need it.


#RGGSENM
#BringBackTheMarchingBand
#Metallica
#SuperBowlLV


----------



## Vanilla

PBH said:


> Dear Lord, please bless this mess with a Cowboys appearance in a near future Super Bowl....


Man, I can get on board with this prayer!

Why did Texas Stadium have a hole in it? My grandpa, who was from Dallas, would always say so God could watch his team play.

#TOTP
#AmericasTeam
#MakeAmericasTeamGreatAgain
#Metallica


----------



## backcountry

I'd rather watch Coldplay on a loop or spend the rest of my years only being able to shop from his ex's Gwyneth Paltrows Goop catalog than ever have to watch the Cowboys play again. 

Metallica would be fun.


----------



## 2full

I am NOT a Metallica fan at all. 
But would rather watch them over Hip hop ANY time. I thought ZZ was good a few years back


----------



## Vanilla

backcountry said:


> I'd rather watch Coldplay on a loop or spend the rest of my years only being able to shop from his ex's Gwyneth Paltrows Goop catalog than ever have to watch the Cowboys play again.


You've said some things on this forum over the years that I think are crazy. Nothing even in the same universe as this one, though. Your little kumbaya with JohnnyCake on this thread has apparently clouded your good judgment. He has that impact on people. Shun him, so you can return to reasonableness.

#shuncakeboy
#MATGA
#Metallica


----------



## backcountry

I don't even watch the NFL but believe Paltrow's goop eggs are healthier for this nation than the Cowboys*. Unlike the Cowboys, at least Coldplay was overplayed the last 2 decades, hence my irrational dislike of them.

😁

*Residual animosity from supporting a team in my youth somehow worse than the Cowboys


----------



## Vanilla

Ouch. Well played though.


----------



## 3arabians

Lol!! Since when did backcountry have a sense of humor!? This is awesome!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## backcountry

Wait a second.....


----------



## ridgetop

backcountry said:


> One mom's opinion I read today:
> 
> https://whatsupmoms.com/parenting/s...DPsx99joIPC8zRRyTFlOyVbutWptTSuzoziGv9AIkLOII


I'm pretty sure this MOM hasn't or won't be voting republican any time soon, if ever.
Definitely a very liberal viewpoint.


----------



## ridgetop

backcountry said:


> I've appreciated your comments. Hard to disagree with personal preferences for someone's own children.
> 
> I also believe it's fair to interpret sexuality in the dance routine. I don't know intent but there were some moves and imagery that I think fits that bill. To the bigger theme of the thread that's were I disagree with many. I don't see sexuality as inherently what others are saying. I'd probably be fine with kids watching said show even if I understand why other wouldn't. I'd rather have an open conversation next to them about what J Lo did, how it relates to my/their/our values and how other might interpret it. I'd probably also talk to them, at an "appropriate" age, about some of the language used here, which what I think the article deals with well. I would hope to raise a child that could respect themselves while also seeing how others might behave differently without using some of the words we've seen deployed here.
> 
> I'll listen to Shapiro. I disagree with him about 80% of the time but try to listen to him 1-2 times a week to understand our disparate views.
> 
> Thx for thoughtful response.


Interesting. 
Where is ole 1eye?
Why isn't he jumping in and scolding you about preaching to others about how to raise their children. 
Oh, I guess when your on the same team, those kind of things tend to slide.


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## backcountry

It helps that I didn't preach about how he should raise his kids. Multiple times I've stated I fully recognize and respect those choices individual households make. A discussion about the words we use to describe sexuality is different than telling people how to raise their kids.

And I'm not sure one can cleanly label the piece as liberal. Possibly but I know plenty of conservative people who think similarly. I don't think this theme cleanly lines up with classical political boundaries. I don't think anyone political camp is nearly as monolithic about personal and social issues as that.


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## Catherder

Looks like deciding not to watch the halftime show did more than prevent me from having anything substantive to say on this thread. It kept me out of hell. :mad2: (not sure it is enough)

https://kutv.com/news/nation-world/...e-halftime-show-put-me-in-danger-of-hell-fire


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## ridgetop

Catherder said:


> Looks like deciding not to watch the halftime show did more than prevent me from having anything substantive to say on this thread. It kept me out of hell. :mad2: (not sure it is enough)
> 
> https://kutv.com/news/nation-world/...e-halftime-show-put-me-in-danger-of-hell-fire


That's pretty funny.


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## Vanilla

$870 trillion? I’m in!


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## ridgetop

Vanilla said:


> $870 trillion? I'm in!


Maybe they will start a class action lawsuit. . I'll settle for a couple thousand.


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## Catherder

I might need an opinion from the UWN legal resource center. To successfully demonstrate to the court an injury sufficient to win a judgement, do you have to prove that you were condemned to hell by watching the show? 

If the burden is less than that, heck we all might be in! We have been subjected to this thread. It has certainly had some hellish moments.


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## Vanilla

ridgetop said:


> Maybe they will start a class action lawsuit. . I'll settle for a couple thousand.


I'll gladly take 40% off the top.


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## olibooger

Oh man. Philosophy now? Condemned to hell? 
Biblically, once saved, always saved. BUT this is the kicker, especially to many folks here in the great state of Utah, baptism DOES NOT save you. Neither do "good works". The apostle Paul considered his good works as dung and filthy rags. And as far as doctrine goes he considered himself blameless. Crazy.
Translators of the bible beyond anything other than King James Version go so far as to even taking verses out of the bible. Like this one. Acts 8:37. It is missing. Philip tells the eunich he must put his faith is Jesus FIRST to be saved. Only then do they go to be baptized to profess faith outwardly. 

Anyways, everyone is condemned to hell unless you put your faith in Jesus Christ for eternal life. You cannot lose being saved once saved. Otherwise the cross at calvary would be meaningless. In which it is definitely not. It is in many ways the pinnacle of the bible. 

Check any bible other than KJV. Acts 8:37 gets skipped. 

Watching, drinking, smoking, cussing, murdering all of it will not condemn you to hell if you are saved. Again, if it did the cross and Jesus being put to death would be meaningless. In which it's not. 
Even the pharisee Nicodemus had a hard time understanding this concept. If it doesn't make sense, explore your KJV bible for answers! 

I'm going to try to avoid this thread now but wanted to clear that up.

Carry on. 

😍👍🤗🙌


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## Vanilla

The article is not about a person from Utah. And all indications were it was posted in jest. You know, to make people laugh? 

You really ought to get to building that bridge so you can get over yourself. 

#IBTL
#CowboysBackintheBowl
#Metallica


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## backcountry

I don't even have a sense of humor and laughed when I read that. "Coach Dave" makes me look like Dave Chappelle after you watch his webcast though.


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