# Utah Lake update



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Utah Lake islands project is rejected by state officials


Utah’s Division of Forestry, Fire & State Lands has formally rejected a controversial proposal to clean up Utah Lake by dredging it and building islands and bridges on it.




www.fox13now.com


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Nice to see. 

Since it is that time of year, it would not surprise me in the least to see some "zombie" version of this plan rise from the dead and reappear.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

It was a crazy plan to begin with IMO. Great Idea, but the cost to stabilize the bottom of the lake for geo peers and bring it up to build infrastructure? The cost of a 1600 sf. home would be over 2M.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I never understood how the constitutionality of this with Utah Lake being a navigable waterway was not in the forefront of the discussion even 5 years ago when they started talking about this.

It’s almost as if the legislators that voted on multiple bills to push this forward over the last few years WANTED to give up publicly held rights to private property owners.

In Utah!?!? (Insert a pic of me here with my surprised face…)


----------



## Half Insane Outdoor Guy (3 mo ago)

I wish they would do SOMETHING to clean up the lake. Its been decades! Public perception of the lake is that its toxic, dirty, stinks, and just gross. Breaks my heart to read what the "old timers" used to say about the lake like Parley P Pratt. who said in 1855(ish) that it was "...the clearest, bluest and deepest lake he had ever laid eyes on..." now its just disgusting! I'd love to go fish bonneville cutthroat there...Now its full of what? Northern Pike, catfish, tiny bass and carp? (ok carp are fun to take on the fly....) anyway...what do I know? I've only lived on its shorts for the past 45 years...


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Utah lake has never been a deep lake even way back in pioneer days. 

It did however hold trout but I believe that I read that they were mostly found close to the river inlets and bays. 

The big problem was when they brought in the carp as a food fish. Now they are trying to get rid of them.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Taken from a Des News article from many years ago: 



DesNews said:


> "It's like a liquid carcinogen. It smells, it's too shallow and it's just creepy," says Brigham Young University student Daniel Brathwaite.
> 
> After some prodding, he admits he's never personally visited the lake.
> 
> "But I've heard lots of stories about how gross it is," says Brathwaite, an avid wakeboarder. "Maybe some people like falling off their board and landing in 2 feet of muddy water. I guess I'm just a lake elitist."


I always love how authoritatively people speak about things they actually have no clue about! This one made me chuckle.

The stories of giant cutthroats roaming those waters in the 1800s make me wish they were still there. Unfortunately, commercial fishing on the carp today isn’t as effective at eradication as it was on the cutties. And the lake has certainly changed over the decades. Not sure it ever could return to how it was before people screwed it up, but it’s also not the terrible place so many say it is.

Never mind, it’s actually horrible. Everyone stay away!


----------



## twinkielk15 (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm certainly no expert in what it was or even what it is, but it seems to me that our energy and money would be better spent making it a nicer version of what it is than to try and change it into something it doesn't naturally "want" to be, if that makes sense. I spend quite a bit of time down there now with my family and, like Vanilla said, it's not what I expected to find based on what I had heard all these years. I'm not saying it's pristine and perfect and smells like a bed of roses, but I don't feel like I'm dumpster diving either. It has its own charms. 

As for the original post, I was so happy to see that this got shot down. I'm sure it's not the last we've heard of it, but one step at a time.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

A couple of quick comments before I start work;

1. As was stated, UL was NEVER a deep lake. In fact, I have a book with pictures of some guys that waded across the lake during extreme low water in the *1930's*. 
2. The main difference between pioneer times and now is the absence of aquatic grasses on the bottom of the lake. These tended to hold the sediments down some, but the lake never looked crystal clear like say Bear lake. The restoration of those grasses was/is the hope of the carp removal and the June sucker recovery.
3. The lake is a lot cleaner than it was 50 years ago when Geneva was in operation. There already HAS been a lot of work and money go in to cleaning up the lake. It is much better than it was but there is still room for improvement. 
4. While not without its own bit of controversy, the Provo River Delta project will be starting to really do stuff soon. This could have a notable effect on fish habitat and help get the lake closer to the pioneer version. It should also improve spawning habitat for all species of fish, including the ones we like to catch. 
5. Those huge cutts were lakewide in pioneer times and may have been somewhat "specialized" for UL, similar to the Lahontan cutts of Pyramid lake. Wouldn't that be a trip to have that so close to many of our homes?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I'd like to go back in time and ask my grandfathers and their brothers how the lake was back in the late 1800's. One's family settled around Saratoga and the other on the south end of the lake. Then I have my brother in laws family that settled down around Mud Lake. It would be interesting to get their perspective on it. 

On the pollution, a lot of it came in the form of fertilizer from runoff of the farmers fields. While Geneva contributed to it most came from other sources. I remember as a kid taking a field trip down to Geneva Steel and they always took us around the holding ponds to show us the gold fish or whatever they were that the kept to check the water purity. 

As to the smell, any lake smells when there isn't enough inflow and outflow to keep everything changed out. Stagnant water is stagnant water and it smells.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I think you're all missing the biggest issue: population.

Back in the 1800s, every little stream and creek and river in the valley made it to the lake. They all had trees lining their banks. Water temperatures would have been lower, with less fertilizers and other wastes being carried to the lake.

The environmental changes simply due to people living around the lake were enough to change the ecosystem forever, regardless of carp. You can't roll that back.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

PBH said:


> I think you're all missing the biggest issue: population.
> 
> Back in the 1800s, every little stream and creek and river in the valley made it to the lake. They all had trees lining their banks. Water temperatures would have been lower, with less fertilizers and other wastes being carried to the lake.
> 
> The environmental changes simply due to people living around the lake were enough to change the ecosystem forever, regardless of carp. You can't roll that back.



All true, but in the opinion of the UL/June sucker biologists, the carp are the reason for the demise of the aquatic grasses, hence the attention paid to them. 

You are correct that it can never be what it was for the Native Americans, but it isn't bad now in its own right. The lake supports an astounding biomass and other than maybe Lake Powell, where can you go and plausibly expect to have a 5+ species day fishing?


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> I think you're all missing the biggest issue: population.


I don't think everyone missed that at all. Human impact hits everywhere.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Catherder said:


> A couple of quick comments before I start work;
> 
> 1. As was stated, UL was NEVER a deep lake. In fact, I have a book with pictures of some guys that waded across the lake during extreme low water in the *1930's*.
> 2. The main difference between pioneer times and now is the absence of aquatic grasses on the bottom of the lake. These tended to hold the sediments down some, but the lake never looked crystal clear like say Bear lake. The restoration of those grasses was/is the hope of the carp removal and the June sucker recovery.
> ...


3. The lake is a lot cleaner than it was 50 years ago when Geneva was in operation.

This isn't accurate. Geneva Steel had a water treatment facility with an effluent pipe that went to the lake. This pipe is what was called "The Bubble Up" The water released into the lake was tested for Heavy Metals, Lead, copper, arsenic, E.coli, Coliforms, etc. *DAILY *prior to being released to the lake. The water was cleaner than most bottled water you buy, or, what comes out of your tap at home. You could drink that water. 

Utah Lake was listed as "Impaired body or water" under 303 (d) list in 2002 with the EPA after EPA testing from *tributaries* to the lake. The silt/mud at the bubble-up location was tested and the EPA test results found small trace deposits of contamination that were below the "tolerable safe limits" for drinking water. Because it was *drinkable *water being distributed into the lake from a Steel Plant that made Provo/Orem one of the most wealthy areas along the Wasatch Front. 

It really irks me when some individuals repeat "hearsay" and stories without researching the facts prior to doing so. So, let's just blame it on the big mill that was there with all that "smoke" (actually steam from the Nitrogen Plant) plumes going up in the air. 

Utah Lake isn't "*impaired*" from the industry that made the area wealthy, spur growth and the largest economic contributor in the area prior to 1990, it's the people and mass growth that is and still happening NOW. I could go on about the cause of what it is and argue science for days. But why would I? WE....the human species are the problem and seem to not give a dang and throw the blame onto something more simple and direct attention away from us.

The Environmental Science field is what I do for a living. I also worked at Geneva 15 years and was one of the last groups "ushered" out the Gate House in November 2001. Ya, this babble of how the plant made Happy Valley dirty and polluted is personal in a way.


----------



## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks for perspective Taxi. I get tired of hearing all the blame going to Geneva as well. People don’t give a s$at about how much fertilizer they’re putting on their lawns and how much actually goes down stream. But that big bad smoke stack that used to be there, that thing was bad.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

one4fishing said:


> Thanks for perspective Taxi. I get tired of hearing all the blame going to Geneva as well. People don’t give a s$at about how much fertilizer they’re putting on their lawns and how much actually goes down stream. But that big bad smoke stack that used to be there, that thing was bad.


I'm not saying it didn't spit out pollutants. I sure wasn't a semiconductor "clean room" facility, but the pm10 particles were within the standards. 

Most of the "smoke" people refer to, was steam coming from the Nitrogen plant cooling system and the quench tower at the koke plant.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

taxidermist said:


> I'm not saying it didn't spit out pollutants. I sure wasn't a semiconductor "clean room" facility, but the pm10 particles were within the standards.
> 
> Most of the "smoke" people refer to, was steam coming from the Nitrogen plant cooling system and the quench tower at the koke plant.


Thanks for chiming in. I spent many a spring afternoon in the 80's fishing around that "bubble-up" and harvesting white bass and walleye. Therefore, I suppose I was the beneficiary of your work, so thanks! The conditions of that time didn't seem to bother me then, but my wife may wonder about that now.   

A comment or two in reply.

How far back was that level of scrutiny paid to what was released? Modern environmental regulations date from the late 60's-early 70's. What about before? Also, didn't Nucor own Geneva at the end? Were they more scrupulous than US steel beforehand? The reason I ask is twofold. First, the *ONLY* advisory at Utah Lake right now is for PCB's in the carp and catfish. While I agree that other pollutants related to urban/suburban sprawl are the main challenges now, PCB's are only related to industry and not something Joe six pack has a drum of in his garage. (of course, there are more culprits than Geneva as the source(s) of it) 
Second, a friend of mine who is a fairly well known Utah lake (and elsewhere) fisherman who does consume a fair amount of fish claims that in the 1960's he remembers the UL fish sometimes tasting like "creosote". He is a bit longer in the tooth than I so I can only take his word for it.

Again, not disagreeing that other issues aren't big factors in UL pollution/water quality, especially now, but there are reasons that industry also should be looked at too. 


As a final tidbit to support what you are saying, I have heard ad nauseum that Utah lake is full of Mercury. However, the health department has checked the fish from UL as well as other fisheries. I reviewed the hard numbers for the results. *Utah lake has some of the lowest readings in the entire state for mercury in fish! "*Clean" waters like Jordanelle have way more and in fact have advisories on some species like smallies and brown trout. 

You must have done a decent job in your remediation then.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

US Steel locked the doors in 84 I believe. After 4 years, Joe and Cris Cannon purchased the plant from US Steel for 44M. After 5 years and making their investment back and then some, Cris wanted to sell and walk away and displace more than 2200 employees. Shortly after, he and his brother separated their business relationship. Cris entered the political arena shortly after.
Joe still stuck with it stating, he was not going to abandon those that made him millions over and he kept his promise while going down with the ship filling bankruptcy.
The plant closed the doors in 2001 and parted out after being sold to a Chinese manufacturer of steel. Now, we are buying steel from China that is produced from US steel parts. 

Nitrogen and phosphates are the leading contributors to the Pollutants in the water. Algae blooms are a result of said pollutants along with low Oxygen levels, record sustainable heat and low water levels.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

taxidermist said:


> Nitrogen and phosphates are the leading contributors to the Pollutants in the water. Algae blooms are a result of said pollutants along with low Oxygen levels, record sustainable heat and low water levels.


= population.

diverted streams used for agricultural and other water uses = increased lake temperatures, lower oxygen levels, and lower water levels.
Nitrogen and phosphates are the result of human activities and sources: fertilizers, wastewater, animal waste, septic systems, farm runoff



Carp are a significant issue - particularly with the vegetation. But Carp are not the reason for what Utah Lake is today. I'm not saying that what Utah Lake is today is bad, or wrong. But if people really want those large cutthroat trout back, the only way to do it is to remove all the people from the Utah Valley.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)




----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Per historic pollution, did CH2MHill every release their study on the groundwater in the area? Even with sound operation after environmental laws kicked that still left more than 2 decades of potential (and likely) source pollution. It was just common back then.

Sounds like Utah Lake had quite the history. Dumping raw sewage is the lake for multiple generations? Ultimately it sounds like some hard work the last 30 years has really paid off there. 

It's funny as I had even heard the Utah Lake is "dirty" reputation and I haven't lived up there. Some legends never die.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that the conceived notion that Utah Lake was a dirty and or polluted came from a few areas. Geneva was one of them the other perhaps was that most people think of Lakes like Bear Lake or Fish Lake. Nice and clear, but Utah Lake was never that clear having a slit covered bottom that is easily stirred up by the wind. Also the fish in it, most were and are considered trash fish even if they are good eating.

Back in my teens during the 60's I spent a lot of time around and in it. Springtime catfish provided a lot of meals. Both mud cats and channel cats along with white bass. During the summer we would just wade out into Mud Lake to fish and chase muskrat.

I can even say that I helped in the demise of a lot of June Suckers. When they were running up the Provo River my friends and I would wade up and down it spearing them with our home made spears.

That lake and it's tributaries provided a lot of fun for us boys

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

backcountry said:


> Sounds like Utah Lake had quite the history. Dumping raw sewage is the lake for multiple generations? Ultimately it sounds like some hard work the last 30 years has really paid off there.
> It's funny as I had even heard the Utah Lake is "dirty" reputation and I haven't lived up there. Some legends never die.





Critter said:


> I think that the conceived notion that Utah Lake was a dirty and or polluted came from a few areas. Geneva was one of them the other perhaps was that most people think of Lakes like Bear Lake or Fish Lake. Nice and clear, but Utah Lake was never that clear having a slit covered bottom that is easily stirred up by the wind. Also the fish in it, most were and are considered trash fish even if they are good eating.


While it may be fun to muse about giant cutts returning there, I too, recognize that is unlikely to happen. Nor do I consider it even a very high priority goal. The main goal I favor with regards to UL is trying to educate people about its current state and efforts that have already been done there to improve the habitat and water, that the fish are not toxic mercury bombs, and that it is a valuable resource right now. I definitely do favor more habitat and water quality work.

The danger I see, as shown by this dumb plan that just got shot down, is if most "Joe six-packs" think that UL is a polluted gooey Poophole, they will fall for schemes like this that are either giveaways of public resources, environmental or public access (hunting and fishing access) disasters or combinations of the above.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> But if people really want those large cutthroat trout back, the only way to do it is to remove all the people from the Utah Valley.


Not “all” the people, just the vast majority of the people. Reduce population 80% and bring back giant cutties to my backyard? Im here for this!

Catherder, how do we make this happen?


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> Not “all” the people, just the vast majority of the people. Reduce population 80% and bring back giant cutties to my backyard? Im here for this!
> 
> Catherder, how do we make this happen?



🤷‍♂️ Not sure on that one. At least with options that don't involve weird post nuclear dystopian situations. How difficult is it to fish in "Mad Max" attire? 

How about this? The legislature declares Utah County to be a special theocratic zone and all residents are required to live the United Order? Would that do it? Does that pass legal muster?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

How about all those who never swam, fished, ice scated, or hunted it need to leave.

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

The first time I heard of the plan to "make land" for housing, I thought for sure it was an idea that came from an Engineer in New York while sipping on a Manhattan ****tail with his buddies. "Hey! I have a great idea guys.... Lets build another Battery Park in the middle of Utah. We can bring in 3M cubic yards (92 acres) of rock/dirt and make 4,000 expensive condos to house people".


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

They screwed up when Geneva was built.

Instead of selling off the slag to D&RG RR they should of taken it straight across the lake and made a few islands with it.

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> Not “all” the people, just the vast majority of the people. Reduce population 80% and bring back giant cutties to my backyard? Im here for this!
> 
> Catherder, how do we make this happen?


Time to institute: 2BRO2B ?


----------



## Daddylglegs (Nov 28, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> I never understood how the constitutionality of this with Utah Lake being a navigable waterway was not in the forefront of the discussion even 5 years ago when they started talking about this. It’s almost as if the legislators that voted on multiple bills to push this forward over the last few years WANTED to give up publicly held rights to private property owners. In Utah!?!? (Insert a pic of me here with my surprised face…)


 It was a crazy, absurd idea from the beginning. Let it die.


----------

