# Bullet failure or



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

just bad luck? I shot a big 6x6 elk yesterday, only to see it get back up and run off like nothing ever happened. The shot was about 150 yards and the bull was quartering away. I was shooting the Hornady 154 grain sst in 7mm mag. The shot knocked the bull off his feet but then about 10 seconds later, he was up, off and running. My guess is that the bullet ricocheted off his shoulder bone with no penetration and not braking the shoulder bone. He had no problem climbing a steep cliffy sidehill after the shot and after a few hundred yards, he stopped bleeding too. So was this bullet failure or just hitting the bone on a bad angle? Would this have happened on any bullet?


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

The Hornady SST is a capable big game bullet, I suspect a less than ideal hit rather than bullet failure.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Sh** truly does happen. But if you keep hunting and shooting elk, sooner or later you'll get a bigger gun. Think .338 as a good starting point. Now, nothing makes up for a really bad shot, but a bigger gun is a good place to start.
P.S sounds like there is a good chance he'll recover...nothing makes you more sic than thinking about the alternative.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Here are a couple of my thoughts. First, in my opinion, the Hornady SST is much more suited to medium sized game, especially in calibers smaller than 30. SST bullets are simply a core/jacket bullet with a platic tip much like a Nosler Ballistic Tip. These bullets expand and even fragment very rapidly. Yes, they can and have killed elk, but I don't consider them ideal in 7MM. Next, while I like big medicine, I don't think you need a bigger gun. I have taken every elk that I have ever shot cleanly with a 7MM with 160 grain bullets, either Nosler Accubonds, or Partitions. While the 338 is great and I love mine, I don't think caliber choice had anything to do with your problem. My guess is that you aimed too far forward on an angling away shot and simply put a bullet harmlessly behind the onside shoulder above the lungs, below the spine and out the front ahead of the offside shoulder missing anything important. I don't think for a second that your bullet ricoched off the animal. One thing to remember on a quartering away shot with a rifle is to aim for the offside front leg. This might mean that the perfect shot might hit behind the last rib on the on side in order to properly angle through the vitals and possibly break the offside shoulder. I would also say to keep looking. If your SST went in and blew up, the animal might be bleeding internally and could expire without leaving alot of blood. Here's my concession to Kevin and BP.........if you want to shoot a bullet like an SST, you'd better shoot a big caliber like a 338. If you want to stay with the very capable 7MM, simply use a little better bullet and pay close attention to shot placement. Hope you find that bull dead, but if not, lets hope he lives to be a little smarter next year. --------------SS


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## ultramagfan2000 (Nov 27, 2009)

Had a friend that used 180 grain sst out of his 300 win mag on a San Juan mature bull hunt 3 years ago. He hit the bull with 10 shots I'm sure there was a little "buck fever"involved. He tracked the bull till dark then called us for some help. We found the bull the next morning. Upon caping the bull, we found he had made several good shots to the vitals but the bullets fragmented to baddly to ever reach the vitals. The bull basically bled to death. We never found a single bullet in intact. fragments every where but nothing deeper than 6 inches. So now we use the sst to target practice and plink with and the interbonds for hunting.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

I really find it interesting with all our different experiences. I guess that is what I like about this site.

I've been shooting SST for what seems like forever. Hornady pointed soft points before that. 30 cal. 165gr and 180gr in two different 30.06's. While I have experienced the separation between the jacket and lead portion a couple of times, I have never had one fail to penetrate or blow up. I have had the blowup happen with some speers I tried early on. Now I have taken many elk, but they have all been Spikes at a wide array of ranges with the longest being 450 yards. Short or far they have always performed just they way I have wanted. Thinking back I don't recall having any deer or elk "run" on me after the shot. 

Now I bought a 300 win mag a few years ago and the SST's don't shoot worth a darn in that gun. So I have switched to the Barns "TSX". But I am still worried how they are going to perform on the kill.

A side note, the first elk that I killed had three .30 cal. bullets in the shoulder. Not one penerated the shoulder blade. The elk didn't even act like it was hit. I watched it through the trees for a couple of hundred yards. No blood down the side or anything. I always thought under powered or long range shots. The fact that they where a pretty good grouping, I have always lead me to think under powered. It has also given me a respect for the bones in an elk.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

This is a really interesting thread and I wish that you were able to retrieve your animal ridgetop to see what ended up happening.

Im wondering if with the bull quartering away, if the bullet bounced off the shoulder like you mentioned, or if it basically grazed the animal and didnt hit any bone? In my mind, the bullet should have broken the shoulder if it hit the bone, unless it was at such a minimal angel that it glanced off the bone.

Really odd.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

When a bullet fails, it doesn't break bones. I shot an antelope several years ago with a 100 grain Nosler ballistic tip from a 25-.06. At roughly 80 yards. Broadside. No quartering angle whatsoever. The bullet hit the right shoulder and vaporized. It didn't break the shoulder, and it didn't penetrate. In the scope, and to my spotter, it looked as though someone had detonated an M-80 under the hide of the animal. There was no chance of deflection. No glancing shot. It was nearly perpendicular to the axis of flight. The next shot was placed 3 inches lower. The spotter called a miss. There was no exit wound, and no lung tissue left intact. It looked like an M-80 had been detonated inside it's chest. You'll never see me use anything but Partitions on big game again.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Man that's a tough call.... I've had great results on paper with the SST, but after reading up on some reviews, I switched to the TSX for elk. I think you have a great caliber for elk, but maybe the bullet could be a little tougher. Like others have said, it'd be worth looking for that bull again. I hope you can find him, but if not, maybe he wasn't hit well enough to put him down.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Huntoholic said:


> I have had the blowup happen with some speers I tried early on.


I used the 180 gr. speer Hot-Cor on my little 4x5 elk last year. He was quartering away at 200 yards. Hit him, near the last rib on the facing side and exited through the opposite shoulder for a devastating pass through. I thought that bullet did a great job considering it is considered by some to be a lower end bullet.


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## johnny (May 24, 2010)

That sucks. Nobody wants to lose an elk or chase one for miles. My elk was hit with a 338 Win Mag 225 Accubond and it went through both shoulders sending blood/gore up the tree behind it. Bigger guns don't take the place of shot placement but I do like the insurance. If you are using the 7mm mag I would go heavy and go bonded.


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

The SST is not a good choice for Elk, regardless of caliber or weight. It's a bullet that was designed for Deer and Antelope. It expands and fragments quickly in Elk. 

But... with a proper placement and a quartering shot, it should have still caused fatal damage (say, running less than 300 yards). Even without proper placement, it's likely to be dead, now. So... there's probably a dead Elk out there, waiting for you.

I think this case was probably poor placement (jerking/slapping the trigger, improper zero, etc) and using the wrong bullet for the job.

SSTs are not appropriate for Elk.


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## jpolson (Jun 12, 2011)

SST's are not designed as an elk bullet. They are just not tough enough. Thin jacket bullets are not made for punching through the shoulder blade of a 1000 lb animal. They can and have done it, but they are not built for it. As a general rule..the tougher the animal...the tougher the bullet. I would love to see some of these Berger loving schmucks hunting cape buffalo or hippo with them.

You will find many posts on message boards talking about how various "non-premium" and other thin jacket bullets (berger, sst's) have performed just fine on elk. You will also find posts about them coming apart and the animal getting away. I would venture to say that you will not find many verifiable stories about Nosler Partitions, Swift Scirocco or other premium large game bullets failing.

With all of the time, effort and money you spend on the hunt, is a few bucks or a small ballistic difference enough to make you go with something other than the best?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses. My gut feeling tells me that the elk has a good chance of surviving but we will be up there on Thurs. and Fri. to look some more. 
Question about the Hornady bullets, would the GMX bullet be a better choice for elk and mature bucks? It seems to be a lot like the barnes bullet. 
I just might need to try out the partitions next year. 
I like what the barnes bullets do but they just don't shoot that well out of my gun.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Ridgetop,

I would recommend you try the 154 gr. Interbond. It should shoot almost the same as your SST. Or jump up to a 160 grain partition or accubond. 

I have seen the SST kill elk. I shoot a 7mm rem mag and the SST shoots the best out of my rifle. I shoot the 162 gr. That being said, that is my deer/antelope bullet. Hornady lists that SST as a light game bullet. 

My guess is you made a non lethal hit. If not, I hope you can find him! Good luck! Let us know if you do. I would love to know more details if you find him.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

silentstalker said:


> That being said, that is my deer/antelope bullet. Hornady lists that SST as a light game bullet.


Where are you reading this? Hornady 8th edition shows the following (same data on each caliber, but this page shows it close to the top, 3rd line, of the page listing as appropriate for medium and large game):


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## muzzlehutn (Oct 26, 2007)

I shoot them in 30 Caliber 150 grain they kill elk. Just like ya pulled their breaker.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Huge,

I know that is what it says in the book. My dad contacted Hornady directly in regards to the "bad reports and here is their reply:

"From: tech <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: "Technical Inquiries"

Wade,

The SST was designed primarily for thin skin game such as Antelope and Deer. It expands very well on thin skin game and has a weight retention of about 50%.

For Elk I prefer a heavier constructed bullet such as the Interbond or the GMX. These bullets expand and have a very high weight retention for the deep penetration required for large game.

Thank you"

I actually have a killer load for my 162 gr. SST but have been concerned about using them on large bull elk. I have seen them kill young bulls fine. Watched my Dad drop a young bull in its tracks with a high shoulder shot this year. Bullet hit both shoulders and broke the spine. We found it on the off side under the hide. Dead is dead.

I just hear so many bad reports on the SST it concerns me a bit. I think I need to quit reading so much and just shoot them!


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I've always liked talking about ballistics, that being said - please don't laugh too hard. The damage a bullet does is from the shockwave delivered as the bullet enters the chest cavity. The bullet has to hold together long enough to transfer it's energy into the chest cavity, which is why deep penetration bullets are around. There is also an optimal velocity for it to perform as it should. Most bonded bullets don't like high velocities at impact.

We've used Hornady BTSP's and Interbond's on elk sized animals with no problems. I do have to say that I have more experience with Partitions and Accubonds, why I chose those I don't really know, they do perform very well, again on elk sized animals and buffalo (bison) too.

TSX's - I have seen bulls get up and run off when hit with them. What happened is the bullet traveled along the spine and lodged in the collar bone area. Eventually, the guy did get it and that's what we found afterward. In the meat cuttin' shop we have, most of the high wound count animals that come in are from TSX's...

That's all I've got to say about that.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

silentstalker said:


> Huge,
> 
> I know that is what it says in the book. My dad contacted Hornady directly in regards to the "bad reports and here is their reply:


That is interesting that they would contradict their official manual -)O(-



High Desert Elk said:


> in the meat cuttin' shop we have, most of the high wound count animals that come in are from TSX's...


What do you mean by this statement? I just don't understand what you are inferring.

What is the real difference in the BTSP and the SST? They look quite similar.
btsp








SST


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

"What do you mean by this statement? I just don't understand what you are inferring."

Animals with multiple wounds in the same general area that TSX's were used on. Why shoot them that many times if the shots are in the vital area? If the physics behind a bullet does what it's supposed to then the animal shouldn't be up very long. Just my "real time" observation on dozens of animals over the years.

Ballistcs gel tests look cool, but what does it do in real life? Tests show that TSX and Accubond create the largest wound channels. The animals I've taken with AB's don't survive very long.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Gotcha, the "high wound" is what through me off assuming this meant a High hit as if high in the cavity. I have often wondered the same about so many shots, but I guess it can beat finding one 5 days later.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Huge,

I was a little discouraged to see them say that about the SST also. After all, who is right? the guys who built the bullet and labelled it as such in the book or the guy answering tech questions? I don't know but it casts a doubt for me. I have no doubt an SST will kill an elk with any good shot placement. The question is will it do it on a marginal hit where a partition or accubond really shine? That is what i am struggling to answer.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

From the little amount that I have researched on the topic, I can better understand the soft argument. Isn't that the idea of the Barnes MRX with Tungsten or just about any Barnes for that matter, Partition in the separate cavity, etc.? I found this picture on here https://forums.cabelas.com/showthread.php?t=626 , which I had never heard of 










> Her is some pictures of some bonded bullets that I shot into a frozen cottonwood tree at about 8-10 yrds. All were 130-140 gr .277 cal. interbond, sciroco, and accubond fired out of a 270wsm. I wouldn't hesitate one second to use these bullets on elk. Good luck!


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## muzzlehutn (Oct 26, 2007)

So Were these handloads or factory made cartridges?


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## ultramagfan2000 (Nov 27, 2009)

Huge the difference is 
interlock-
Aerodynamic secant ogive delivers flat trajectories and great accuracy. 
Tapered jacket for deep penetration and controlled expansion. 
InterLock ring locks core and jacket together. 
Lead alloy core is tough enough for any game.


SST-
Streamlined for ultra-flat trajectories. 
Polymer tip for rapid expansion and maximum energy transfer. 
Match-grade jacket delivers surgical accuracy. 
Heavy construction with InterLock® feature delivers deep penetration every time.

I am no ballistic expert but I almost think the polymertip causes to much expansion on elk. The best way I can describe it is like a using a wedge to split wood. But there may also be some big differences in the jacket design of each bullet I'm missing as well, like the match grade jacket on the SST.

I was excited when the SST came out thinking it would be awsome for elk, as I have used the old interlock BTSP with great success on elk before. Both bullets use the interlock ring near the base of the bullet. Thankfully I didn't have the heart wrenching scenario that happened to ridgetop and that happened to my buddy (see story in a previous post on this thread). I learned from this mistake but the SST shot so well out of my gun I used them for target practice and varmints. Later I tried the Interbonds which have the same listed B.C. as the SST and found they shoot nearly identical I have compared out to 500 yds just for fun. Since the SST are half the price of interbonds I use them for my practice and plinking and use the interbonds for hunting.


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## jpolson (Jun 12, 2011)

Shot a spike yesterday. 165gr 308 partition. Dropped in place. Fist sized exit wound. 310 yards.

LONG LIVE THE NOSLER PARTITION - KING OF BIG GAME BULLETS!!!


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

Hard to tell where an animal is hit untill you have it down and dead. I personally dont think a bullet would bounce off of a shoulder blade. It sounds to me like a high hit that momentarely shocked the spine. As for bullet construction, a great test is to make a large bale of newspaper, tightly tied and soaked with water. Shoot it and then untie and slowly remove layers. It gives a pretty good picture of the wound cavity, penetration and bullet toughness.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

10yearquest said:


> I personally dont think a bullet would bounce off of a shoulder blade


You don't have to believe. I wouldn't call it "bounce" either. I watched as a 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip in .25 caliber exploded on a shoulder blade. It didn't penetrate, or break the shoulder. There was almost no deflection. The shot was broadside.


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

I first started hunting with my mom's 7mm Mauser and killed 4 bull elk with 140 gr Nosler Partitions hand loaded. Bullets weren't going fast but sure did the job.
Then I got my own 7mmMag and ended up switching to Hoyt and FMJ's for my elk hunting but when/if I hunt elk with the mag it will be with 160 gr Accubonds.

I have to agree with those that said the SST is not an ideal elk round. Will it kill? Yes it will but if it wont 1 out of a 100 times because of bullet type wouldn't you rather have something else?

I also think the GMX would be a better choice than the SST as was asked earlier.


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

Fishrmn said:


> 10yearquest said:
> 
> 
> > I personally dont think a bullet would bounce off of a shoulder blade
> ...


Thats pretty crazy. Hard to believe even, but I will take your word for it. For a bullet to do that and not break the shoulder is hard to imagine.


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## jeff788 (Aug 7, 2009)

One thing that has yet to be mentioned is the effect of impact velocity on how well a bullet holds together. A lightly constructed bullet like an SST, at 3000+ fps impact velocity will almost instantly fragment and give very little penetration. If the same bullet were to impact at a lower velocity (say 2000 fps), yes it would have less energy but the bulled will stay together better and actually penetrate deeper. This is well known in defensive handgun ballistics where some hollow points won't open up at low velocity and therefore penetrate much deeper than they would at high velocity when the hollow point would expand.

I saw a dramatic example of this a few years ago. My buddy was hunting with a 7 mm mag. and a traditional cup/core bullet (can't remember which brand). The first shot on a spike elk was ~200 yards and was found just under the skin on the offside with about 25% weight retained. The animal dropped but was still struggling when we approached so he put another one in it at about 15 yards. That second shot completely blew apart on impact and we found only tiny fragments a few inches inside the body cavity.

My opinion is, if you are using a high velocity round (3000+ fps) you need to use a controlled expansion bullet such as a partition, TSX, GMX, etc. With lower velocity cartridges you can get away with a lighter constructed bullet, but a controlled expansion bullet is still a good idea provided it will still expand. For example, I think the Barnes says that their X-bullet won't reliably expand at less than about 2000 fps impact velocity.

I personally have had very good luck with the GMX's. The nice thing about the GMX is that they were designed so that the SST will shoot to the same point of aim (approximately) with the same load data, so you can sight in and practice with the SST's.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Thanks for all the input guys. I've learned a lot. Too bad I had to learn the hard way. The bullet was leaving the muzzle at about 3100' per second. So maybe it did just blow up on contact. I did get off a running "off hand" 2nd shot(that missed), then he stopped at about 200 yards and I shot again and hair flew. After tracking him, I found the hair and by the looks of it, that third shot just grazed his beard near the brisket. 2 or 3" higher on that shot and he would have been dead. When I was taking these follow up shots, I could see a 3" to 4" diameter sized blood spot high on his shoulder as he was running. After about a 1/2 mile of tracking the blood seemed to be clotting up and he stopped bleeding all together. I couldn't even find blood on the branches of the scrub oak he was going though. My wife and father in law went back up there this past weekend and rode the horses all around with no sign of it.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Thanks for sharing! I learned a lot too! Did you take your dogs with you also on your ride? It is now legal to do.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

She may have taken the dog but I think he's worthless when it comes to tracking. Oh, did I say that out loud. 
I am going to give the sst a second chance on a deer this week, if given the chance. I'm hoping to see how it works on a behind the shoulder shot at a little further distance.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

10yearquest said:


> Fishrmn said:
> 
> 
> > 10yearquest said:
> ...


Well, I was the spotter on this incident and believe me it happened just as described. :shock: 

Bullet failure is a funny thing. If Fishrmn would have hit it elsewhere that slipped passed bone and into the vitals, we would have thought the light Ballistic Tip at high velocity to have been just fine. In fact the second, killing shot did just that as I recall. But the test of an all-around bullet is what it does when it hits bone etc. and that is where the Nosler BT failed and where the SST shot at high velocity from the 7mm Mag failed as well here.

Those bullets, for the most part are made for lighter big game, especially at longer range.
There are exceptions, like the Nosler .338 Ballistic Tip, but the rule is to use heavier bullets with some sort of premium system of controlling expansion and enough weight behind them.

There are a lot of bullet-smart people on this board and that shows when they mention velocity as a major stress factor dictating terminal performance. The faster the velocity, the tougher the bullet needs to be.

I, too, am a huge Nosler fan and have used both Partitions and AccuBonds with excellent results. The AccuBond was specifically engineered to give Partition-like results. It also has the more streamlined nose and tail of the Ballistic Tip. From what I've seen this is the case. It would be my choice over even the Interbond as it is a better bonded bullet. Of course the boring old Partition still gives boringly uniform good results as well. I know a 150-gr .270 Partition will break elk shoulder bones and keep on going. And a friend has elk kills into the 15-20 range with a 150-gr 7mm Partition in his high velocity 7mm STW. While I would use a 160, he has a huge collection of perfectly expanded 150s dug out of the opposite side hide (very elastic stuff really). He got another one this year and ain't changing a thing!

I know that there are other good bullets like Trophy Bonded, but I am happy with Nosler premium bullets, so I don't have to look far.


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