# Change to Wilderness Act to allow bicycles



## wyogoob

A recent proposed amendment to the Wilderness Act would allow mountain bikes, game carts, wheelbarrows, and strollers, among other human-powered mechanisms. The bill is House Resolution 1349.

Wheelchairs are are allowed already under the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.

A similar bill was introduced to the House in 2015 by Utah's Mike Lee, but died on the floor.

A note I found at a trailhead in 2015: 

.


----------



## Packout

The comment in your photo is kind of ill informed. I used to ride my horses up Am Fork canyon, but finally stopped because it was too dangerous. Mtn bikes ride the trails too fast and silently. I had them run into my horse twice and had several near misses. Dirt bikes are almost as bad, they rarely give right of way and I had a few close calls, but they are so loud we got off the trail before they came by. 

Hiking is almost as bad. We've had several close calls with the family and both Mtn bikes and dirt bikes. They just ride way too fast. My son did a service project in AF Canyon where the FS had his group reroute a trail to slow down Mtn and dirt bikes. 

But change comes and life goes on-- just less enjoyable for many. 

...


----------



## wyogoob

Packout said:


> The comment in your photo is kind of ill informed. I used to ride my horses up Am Fork canyon, but finally stopped because it was too dangerous. Mtn bikes ride the trails too fast and silently. I had them run into my horse twice and had several near misses. Dirt bikes are almost as bad, they rarely give right of way and I had a few close calls, but they are so loud we got off the trail before they came by.
> 
> ....................................
> 
> ...


My comment is about Wilderness Areas, not general National Forest lands.

.


----------



## Kwalk3

I don't think we are in danger of having "too much" wilderness. There are plenty of places that are open to everything, which is great. I'm glad there are a lot of options for all fitness levels and ages. I'd prefer wilderness remains as untouched as possible. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Packout

wyogoob said:


> My comment is about Wilderness Areas, not general National Forest lands.r
> 
> .


Well your post contained a photo of a person comparing AF canyon to opening Wilderness. I was commenting on your photo.

..


----------



## Hoopermat

I think so. Mountain bikes are not going to ruin the wilderness areas. 
And as a person that hates horses. I would love to bike in on an elk hunt. 
It would also increase to use and also the people supporting its protection. 
The more people use it the more they would be involved of the protection of the wilderness


----------



## DallanC

wyogoob said:


> My comment is about Wilderness Areas, not general National Forest lands.
> 
> .


True, but then you linked a picture with a reference to American Fork Canyon, which packout expounded on how its a poor example due to the dangers he cited.

-DallanC


----------



## Critter

Don't get me wrong because this doesn't apply to most out there but I have found that a lot of mountain bikers to be some of the most in considerate people out there when they are riding a trial.

And when it comes to damaging a trail system bikers and horses do some of the most destruction that I have seen. I know of areas where horses have dug a rut a foot deep after a few years of using the same trail, and the problem with mountain bikes is they will start taking short cuts along the trails and causing even more damage.


----------



## wyogoob

*duh*



Packout said:


> Well your post contained a photo of a person comparing AF canyon to opening Wilderness. I was commenting on your photo.
> 
> ..


Oh, I get it now.

.


----------



## wyogoob

*look at it again for Kriste's sake*



DallanC said:


> True, but then you linked a picture with a reference to American Fork Canyon, which packout expounded on how its a poor example due to the dangers he cited.
> 
> -DallanC


The picture of the registration sheet says "High Uintas WILDERNESS Registration" I didn't write that comment.

Take a deep breath, and let it go.

.


----------



## wyogoob

"I don't think you quite understand that what you believe I may have meant isn't what you think I said."


_Richard Nixon, 1974
_


.


----------



## wyogoob

I voted "Don't care" Mostly so I could tell ya all that so you wouldn't shoot the messenger. 

Really, I don't care. As far as the horses go; no one hates farm animals worse than I do, but the National Forest, and yes, the wilderness, would be an inaccessible mess if it wasn't for horses. If it wasn't for guys like packout, livestock producers, and outfitters the Feds wouldn't keep up buckin' trail and we hikers would be rootin around lost in all the deadfalls.

I don't know, there's something cool, something "Americana", about 14 horses being tied up in the timber at Dollar Lake while the riders are hiking up King's Peak, but I'm not so sure I could say the same about 14 mountain bikes parked there.

Who knows? The way things are going there might just be roads all over the wilderness areas soon.

.


----------



## rjefre

I've been in the mountains on horseback and on mountain bike. I like the idea of having a wilderness area be non-motorized because it give people a place to get away without the racket of vehicles. That being said, horses truly screw up the trails and horse folk seem to love riding right after a rainstorm for some reason. Bikes are just as quiet (or quieter) than horses and probably do the same amount of trail damage if ridden when wet, plus they don't leave big dookie piles on the trail like horses do. I never really understood why they list a bicycle as a motorized vehicle. I guess it's because the human leg is a motor that runs a mechanized wheel, and a horse leg only has a metal shoe and no gears?
R


----------



## Bax*

Packout - I know not all guys do the same, but I pull over and turn my dirk bike off when someone with a horse is coming up the trail.

I wait until the person passes, then I start my bike back up and then get moving again.

I know my bike isn't the quietest, but I put a quieter muffler on it knowing full well that power would be limited as a result but also to be sure that I wasn't obnoxious on the trail. 

Last thing I want to do is scare a horse and buck a rider off as a result of my impatience.


----------



## Bax*

rjefre said:


> I never really understood why they list a bicycle as a motorized vehicle. I guess it's because the human leg is a motor that runs a mechanized wheel?
> R


 (edited for purpose).

I haven't ever heard that a bicycle was considered motorized..... does this mean guys cant ride their bikes down the dike in Farmington?

Not asking to be a bone head, but thought that someone might have an answer to this.

Thus far, I haven't ever seen anyone given grief for riding their bike down the dike, but just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it wont happen.


----------



## paddler

Bikes aren't considered motorized on our WMAs, even electric bikes, which have motors.:-( Hopefully that will change soon.


----------



## Bax*

paddler said:


> Bikes aren't considered motorized on our WMAs, even electric bikes, which have motors.:-( Hopefully that will change soon.


 to clarify your post: are you saying you want all bikes removed from WMAs, including pedal bikes? Or are you saying you just want electric bikes banned?


----------



## rjefre

I probably misused the word "motorized"...it is probably "mechanized" vehicles that are not allowed. I don't know which word is called out in the regulations. If it is "mechanized", then it would be targeting bikes I assume. HR1349 specifically uses the words "non-motorized bicycles", so I guess I'll have to get into the wilderness regulations to see what a bike is deemed to be... 
R


----------



## wyogoob

*"mechanized" is the word*



rjefre said:


> I probably misused the word "motorized"...it is probably "mechanized" vehicles that are not allowed. I don't know which word is called out in the regulations. If it is "mechanized", then it would be targeting bikes I assume. HR1349 specifically uses the words "non-motorized bicycles", so I guess I'll have to get into the wilderness regulations to see what a bike is deemed to be...
> R


Yes. I should have put up a link to one of the articles about the new proposal, sorry. Some say the original Wilderness Bill rules out mechanized modes of human travel, that's something that came later. see: http://www.wyofile.com/column/legislation-allow-bikes-wilderness/
_
"It's not the Wilderness Act that bans bikes, it's the interpretation of the law by federal land management agencies,"_ the article said.

BUT, here's the original bill verbiage:

*Text from the Wilderness Act of 1964
section 4(c)*

"Prohibition of Certain Uses
Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, _*no other form of mechanical transport*_, and no structure or installation within any such area."
_(emphasis added)_

_see: _
_http://www.wildernessbicycling.org/bikesbelong/mechanical_transport.html_

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/20/...ss-areas-to-bikes-also-opens-debate.html?_r=0

http://newwest.net/main/article/wilderenss_act_does_not_ban_mountain_biking/

.


----------



## DallanC

I really loathe Mt Bikers... I see them from my house cutting all kinds of new trails through areas that have been closed to motorcycles and ATVs. Recently, someone drove one of those tiny trackhoes down the mountainside making a zig-zag course down a steep drainage for the bikers. Now, alot of the newer bikes do have a battery powered motor assist. They should be treated the same as Motorcycles IMO.

I am for the most part, all for retaining the ban on bikes, wheeled vehicles, chainsaws etc etc in wilderness areas.

My only exception however is _possibly_ snowmobiles. The only reason I would be open to a change there is they really do leave little to no trace in country that for the most part isn't utilized in the winter otherwise. Snow is so deep most animals migrate, and it can be so far in cross country skiers /snowshoers don't use it either. Once the snow is gone so are the tracks.

-DallanC


----------



## DallanC

Mt bike motor assist front wheel:

https://jet.com/product/detail/b647...204480:pla-290855345456:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15

-DallanC


----------



## Groganite

I would like to be able to use my mountain bike to hunt, maybe fence the trail so no "short cuts" would be possible. I do agree it makes me mad when people on bikes are inconsiderate so maybe compromise and make it legal for game carts. At least then I can pack all my gear for a week into BFE and not have to bring a fork and knife to pack out my animal. even if it was just for a weekend trip it would make it nice to get the animal out. i guess i dont see why a game cart would be so rough on the trail.


----------



## gdog

DallanC said:


> Once the snow is gone so are the tracks.
> 
> -DallanC


Yeah...and all that is left behind are beer cans/bottles, broken drive belts and other snowmobile parts...ect....ect. We have a family cabin up in Timberlakes and normally before the road up Lake Creek is open for cars/trucks and not enough snow left for snowmobiling, I'll hike up there with the dogs. There is so much trash and **** from the snowmobilers its not funny.

Why do we continue to have to make exceptions? Leave designated Wilderness areas just that...Wilderness.


----------



## paddler

gdog said:


> Yeah...and all that is left behind are beer cans/bottles, broken drive belts and other snowmobile parts...ect....ect. We have a family cabin up in Timberlakes and normally before the road up Lake Creek is open for cars/trucks and not enough snow for left for snowmobiling, I'll hike up there with the dogs. There is so much trash and **** from the snowmobilers its not funny.
> 
> Why do we continue to have to make exceptions? Leave designated Wilderness areas just that...Wilderness.


I agree. Let wilderness be.

I don't want pedal bikes banned from our WMAs, just e-bikes. Rather disappointing to pedal out 6 miles only to have some guys on e-bikes pull up right behind you.


----------



## Clarq

paddler said:


> I don't want pedal bikes banned from our WMAs, just e-bikes. Rather disappointing to pedal out 6 miles only to have some guys on e-bikes pull up right behind you.


Do the regulations really allow for those, or are people just doing it regardless? I thought the regulations clearly prohibited any form of motorized travel on dikes.


----------



## paddler

Clarq said:


> Do the regulations really allow for those, or are people just doing it regardless? I thought the regulations clearly prohibited any form of motorized travel on dikes.


That would make sense, but it's not the case. E-bikes are allowed as of now. I talked to the division, but too late too late for the RACs. Jason and Blair don't want them, so I think next year may be the last for them. Let's hope.


----------



## OriginalOscar

paddler said:


> I agree. Let wilderness be.
> 
> I don't want pedal bikes banned from our WMAs, just e-bikes. Rather disappointing to pedal out 6 miles only to have some guys on e-bikes pull up right behind you.


What's the issue with e-bikes on dikes?

What's next ban boat motors and only allow paddle power.


----------



## paddler

OriginalOscar said:


> What's the issue with e-bikes on dikes?
> 
> What's next ban boat motors and only allow paddle power.


The problem with e-bikes is that they are motorized. Should we open the dikes to internal combustion engines? Is there a functional difference?

You're new around here, or you wouldn't be bringing up the motorless issue.:shock:


----------



## Clarq

paddler said:


> You're new around here, or you wouldn't be bringing up the motorless issue.:shock:


Yes. One of the unspoken rules of the forum is this:

If you want to discuss anything dealing with motorless restrictions on WMAs, either (1) don't; or (2) start a new thread on the topic, so you don't detract from other discussions. Pretty soon we'll be 14 pages into this wondering how the wilderness act relates to the WMAs on the Great Salt Lake.


----------



## paddler

Clarq said:


> Yes. One of the unspoken rules of the forum is this:
> 
> If you want to discuss anything dealing with motorless restrictions on WMAs, either (1) don't; or (2) start a new thread on the topic, so you don't detract from other discussions. Pretty soon we'll be 14 pages into this wondering how the wilderness act relates to the WMAs on the Great Salt Lake.


I still think it's a great idea.:mrgreen:


----------



## LostLouisianian

DallanC said:


> Mt bike motor assist front wheel:
> 
> https://jet.com/product/detail/b647...204480:pla-290855345456:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15
> 
> -DallanC


Hmmm I need to get my daughter to order me one of those, she's in management over there at Jet.com aka Walmart ecommerce division.


----------



## Springville Shooter

No bikes in the wilderness please. Horses are bad enough and, unfortunately, we are probably stuck with them.------SS


----------



## gdog

Moving forward....

https://mcclintock.house.gov/newsroom/press-releases/hr-1349-restoring-the-original-intent-of-the-wilderness-act-to-allow

"H.R. 1349 - Restoring the Original Intent of the Wilderness Act to Allow Bicycles in Wilderness Areas
December 13, 2017 Press Release
The House Natural Resources Committee today voted to pass H.R. 1349 by Congressman Tom McClintock. The bill would restore the original intent of the Wilderness Act to allow bicycles and other forms of human-powered locomotion in wilderness areas at the discretion of local land managers.

Bicycles were originally permitted in wilderness areas from the time Congress enacted the Wilderness Act until 1977 when federal bureaucrats began adopting blanket prohibitions against their use, closing Wilderness areas that are now equivalent to the entire land area of California.

One of the principal objectives McClintock has set as Chairman of the Sub-committee on Federal Lands is to restore public access to the public lands. The bill would restore to federal land managers the option to permit non-motorized mountain bikes, adaptive cycles, strollers and game-carts in Wilderness areas where their use is compatible with the environment, trail conditions and existing uses.

The measure is supported by the Sustainable Trails Coalition and was adopted by a vote of 22-18. It now goes to the House floor."


----------



## paddler

Well, ebikes remain permissible on our WMAs. Ran into a couple of guys on them yesterday. I believe this is bad policy, as I think they will become more common, less expensive and more powerful. In my view, electric motors are in fact, motorized vehicles, and should not be allowed on our WMAs. Think Tesla. I thought Jason and Blair were going to press the issue at the RACs, at least that was the impression I had after talking with both of them last year.

Utah law says ebikes are legal anywhere pedal bikes are allowed, so long as they are capable of being pedal powered and the motors don't exceed 750W. Looks like I'm going to have to buy one.


----------



## gdog

**this is over 750W, buts shows whats being developed


----------



## Bax*

gdog said:


> **this is over 750W, buts shows whats being developed


Here is another option: https://www.get2theedge.com/s/showcase/49/ktm/82005/e-ride/

I keep wondering about selling one my bikes for one of these


----------



## Springville Shooter

These are really cool and I think they are a great low impact option for some areas. I would never want to allow these or pedal bikes in the wilderness. In fact, I really wish that they would limit horseback travel to main, arterial trails in big wildernesses.

I’m all about use and recreation but I think that some areas should just be protected.———SS


----------



## middlefork

This will not allow E bikes in the wilderness only human powered. You can't even get the MTB community to agree on E bikes on current trails open to bikes.

I'm not a big fan of allowing them but I can't see how they would create more damage than a horse or mule.

I've seen some thoughts as to opening up a selected few but not all trails in the wilderness to bike. This makes some sense to me rather than a blanket rule.


----------



## Steve G

I think that I should be able to use a bicycle in the wilderness, but I'm not to sure about anybody else.


----------



## paddler

gdog said:


> **this is over 750W, buts shows whats being developed


I remember the first time I saw a mud motor. Just a few at first. Now many. In fact, lots of guys take their MM out to the end of the Turpin, then walk out from there. Why? To get to places MM can't go. Ironic. Now those places are accessible via ebike, which will likely increase dramatically in number in the coming years, as well as become more capable and less expensive. Note that there is no limit to electric motor power on our WMAs. I guess we'll need to have speed limit signs put up behind the gates soon.


----------



## Vanilla

paddler said:


> I remember the first time I saw a mud motor. Just a few at first. Now many. In fact, lots of guys take their MM out to the end of the Turpin, then walk out from there. Why? To get to places MM can't go. Ironic. Now those places are accessible via ebike, which will likely increase dramatically in number in the coming years, as well as become more capable and less expensive. Note that there is no limit to electric motor power on our WMAs. I guess we'll need to have speed limit signs put up behind the gates soon.


Oh boy...


----------



## OriginalOscar

paddler said:


> I remember the first time I saw a mud motor. Just a few at first. Now many. In fact, lots of guys take their MM out to the end of the Turpin, then walk out from there. Why? To get to places MM can't go. Ironic. Now those places are accessible via ebike, which will likely increase dramatically in number in the coming years, as well as become more capable and less expensive. Note that there is no limit to electric motor power on our WMAs. I guess we'll need to have speed limit signs put up behind the gates soon.


Let me guess. You prefer paddling out 7 miles just to impress yourself?


----------



## Springville Shooter

If he paddles 7 miles, I am impressed.———-SS


----------



## paddler

It's not possible to paddle 7 miles one way on our WMAs. The Turpin is our longest unit, and it's about 4 miles one way. Maybe a bit more. Takes a little more than an hour to get out there. Back before MMs I'd paddle out in the dark. Probably the longest round trip is 8 miles, which is no big deal. I'll probably save some time with an ebike as I can tow my canoe out wherever I want and then launch. Easy peasy. Should be able to make 15MPH fully loaded.


----------

