# ATV NP??



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

So, how does everybody feel about allowing ATV's in our National Parks?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

doesn't this only allow street legal atvs to drive the same roads as any other vehicle?


Big deal.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I believe there should be some formal ATV trails through NP's. These could access areas with minimal footprints compared to full size street legal vehicles. Make a trail with a strict speed limit of maybe 25mph that loops around through various areas. Maybe a Park ranger leads groups around etc etc. It could be done easily, safely and without disturbing much of whats there.

I loved back in the 1980's snowmobiling into Yellowstone national park. I dont see why some atv use cant be allowed (with strict restrictions of course).

-DallanC


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> I believe there should be some formal ATV trails through NP's. ... Maybe a Park ranger leads groups around etc etc.
> -DallanC


Dog and pony show!

Honestly, that idea right there could probably pay for itself, as well as pay for the majority of park maintenance. Guided ATV trail rides @ $50/rider? Asian Gold!!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> I believe there should be some formal ATV trails through NP's. These could access areas with minimal footprints compared to full size street legal vehicles. Make a trail with a strict speed limit of maybe 25mph that loops around through various areas. Maybe a Park ranger leads groups around etc etc. It could be done easily, safely and without disturbing much of whats there.
> 
> I loved back in the 1980's snowmobiling into Yellowstone national park. I dont see why some atv use cant be allowed (with strict restrictions of course).
> 
> -DallanC


You do a lot with atv's... How much of an environmental impact would they have vs cars or snowmobiles?

Would you regulate the year of ATV (better emissions on new ones)?

Yellowstone on an atv would be amazing!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> You do a lot with atv's... How much of an environmental impact would they have vs cars or snowmobiles?
> 
> Would you regulate the year of ATV (better emissions on new ones)?
> 
> Yellowstone on an atv would be amazing!


Snowmobiles IMO have the least impact (they ride on snow that then melts leaving little to no trace), followed by ATVs (lighter, smaller than automobiles) followed by cars (which usually need paved road ways).

Not saying we should do this... only that I think it could be done in a careful, controlled manner (strict restrictions on sticking to trails, max speeds, exhaust spark arrestors, exhaust decibel restrictions, 4 stroke only for emissions, maybe restriction on X number of vehicles per day etc etc).

-DallanC


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> Snowmobiles IMO have the least impact (they ride on snow that then melts leaving little to no trace), followed by ATVs (lighter, smaller than automobiles) followed by cars (which usually need paved road ways).
> 
> Not saying we should do this... only that I think it could be done in a careful, controlled manner (strict restrictions on sticking to trails, max speeds, exhaust spark arrestors, exhaust decibel restrictions, 4 stroke only for emissions, maybe restriction on X number of vehicles per day etc etc).
> 
> -DallanC


Yeah the emissions was my main environmental concern.

I like all those proposed restrictions. If those are in place, I think it could be really smooth. I am indifferent on if we do it, but would also like it thought out as you said.

Coupled with big fines for violations.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If you want to see what impact a ATV has on the surrounding area you just need to take a look up on the Monroe Mountain and the Piute Trai. Or over on Coffee Ridge. The roads have turned to dust. One day during the ML hunt up on the Monroe we counted over 40 in one group with all of them running closer than 50 yards to the one in front with so much dust in the air that they couldn't see a thing.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

My gut reaction is disappointment but it's difficult to counter two points:

1) This is largely about long term COR policy. For years it's been regulation that national parks defer to state law regarding vehicles. Clearly that had been ignored in Utah parks.

2) They "gatekeeping" criticism is hard to ignore. It's hard to defend a stance against street legal, registered ATVs that are driven by adults who follow the law. Especially given modern ATVs normally have already dealt with sound issues because of other states' laws. 

This might be one that I end up supporting because of some thoughtful defense I've read the last day or so.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

paddler said:


> So, how does everybody feel about allowing ATV's in our National Parks?


cut my wrists


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

From what I've read (please correct me if I'm wrong) this isn't suggesting that ATVs would be allowed to drive off the existing paved roads inside the parks - right alongside every other street legal vehicle including motorcycles (harley's). This issue isn't about creating ATV riding trails through the park. As Dallan brought up, that might be something that Parks could consider in the future, but as for the current issue, I thought it was just street legal ATVs on the pavement? Big deal. Why not?

What ATV riding club wants to stay on the pavement anyway? They like eating dust.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I doubt it will change the current dog and pony show that is our NP's

And I kind of like Dallens idea.

Critter, the Piute Trail is the most successful and popular ATV trail in the USA. But the times I've hunted Monroe mountain they seldom bothered me. But I am betting there are more of them than there is of us.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

middlefork said:


> Critter, the Piute Trail is the most successful and popular ATV trail in the USA. But the times I've hunted Monroe mountain they seldom bothered me. But I am betting there are more of them than there is of us.


The club rides were running up and down the Manning Reservoir Rd and the other main one up to Upper Box Reservoir. But then some of them were hitting the side roads. There wasn't a road up there that didn't have 5" of dust on the top of it. I tried to get all of my riding done by 10 am to avoid them and then just sat in camp and watched them as they road by. They were quite surprised when the ranchers started to take their cattle off and they had to slow down.

My biggest gripe was when a side by side came around a corner an almost had a head on with me. The person driving it was only around 10 years old with his mom riding as the copilot. You should of seen their face when they came face to face with a Ford F250 4x4.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I completely understand. My "home" area is part of the Shosone Trail in northern Utah. I see hundreds of ATV / UTV every weekend during the summer and snowmobiles during the winter.

But I'm pretty sure it impossible to make enough laws to stop stupid.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

PBH said:


> From what I've read (please correct me if I'm wrong) this isn't suggesting that ATVs would be allowed to drive off the existing paved roads inside the parks - right alongside every other street legal vehicle including motorcycles (harley's). This issue isn't about creating ATV riding trails through the park. I thought it was just street legal ATVs on the pavement? Big deal. Why not?


This is my understanding too. It is merely to correlate regional highway laws with those in the NP. The roads through Zion, Arches, and Bryce are currently so crowded with automobiles that if some dimwit wanted to go offroad, the odds of him being seen and reported are close to 100%. I think this current story is a bit of a nothingburger.

Now, putting in ATV trails in NP's would be a much different issue and one I would not generally favor. However, in select, regulated instances it could have its place if the trails are pre-existing.

Maybe something for the new Gobert/Stewart/Zinke Escalante Staircase National Park?


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

National parks are already like going to an amusement park, ATV's would only make it worse.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think it’s fine. Why someone can drive a diesel truck though Bryce but not a street legal RZR never made any sense. 

I would oppose an attempt to develop ATV trails off-road in the parks, but allowing them to drive on roads when they are street legal vehicles just makes logical sense.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

My concern is illegal use. There is a high rate of off road vehicle riders going off trail and doing lots of damage. I remember several instances on the archery elk hunt of being pretty far from the road and coming upon fresh ATV tracks right through previously pristine meadows. National parks are typically pretty crowded, so enforcement should be easier. Not a fan of letting them off pavement. If enforcement can be guaranteed, with severe penalties for violators, I wouldn't object. I'm talking confiscation, etc. And if illegal use is prevalent, then just banning them outright.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

*Tribune Editorial*

Worth a read:

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/editorial/2019/10/13/tribune-editorial-mighty/


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I normally agree with many editorials from the Tribune but this one seems to be mostly an emotional appeal. 

There was one comment on that article that made me wonder though. How do the parks deal with the staging areas for the trailers? Zion and Arches simply can't accommodate anymore parking. Others will be fine (Bryce for example) but the Zion surrounding areas are already at capacity.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> ... but the Zion surrounding areas are already at capacity.


Not from the East! Hell, I can just imagine the string of ATVs taking a day ride from Coral Pink all the way over the the East Zion entrance, down through the tunnel and into Springdale for lunch, then turn around and head back to the dunes for dinner!

Funny thing -- I pointed out some cryptobiotic soil to my daughter this weekend. Told her "we can't drive on that stuff....it's crypto!". I explained how long it might take for that soil to develop. Her question was: is it a good thing? I had to be honest in my answer: Hell if I know!

God save the crypto!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Why someone can drive a diesel truck though Bryce but not a street legal RZR never made any sense.


Well....let's not use that example. My diesel is quieter and probably burns cleaner (to the eye!) than any RZR or CanAm. Maybe we should make ATVs run some urea to hide their exhaust too!!


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I feel like I'm making the same arguments, but after glancing through the Op-ed before the trib article counter cut me off, it's worth mentioning. The opponents keep mentioning "trails". A few things,

1. There aren't any existing "ATV (type) trails" that I know of in at least Zion, Bryce, or Arches. We are talking about virtually 100% paved roads with this regulation change. Very heavily traveled paved roads. If some numbnuts wanted to go off pavement into the virgin cryptobiotic soil, he would easily be detected and caught. I'm fine with nailing such a person with an especially aggressive fine and confiscation for his actions. Currently, 4wd vehicles are fine to go into the NP's. They are also fully capable of going off road. Should we ban them too?

2.


PBH said:


> Not from the East! Hell, I can just imagine the string of ATVs taking a day ride from Coral Pink all the way over the the East Zion entrance, down through the tunnel and into Springdale for lunch, then turn around and head back to the dunes for dinner!


This is exactly the type of ATV traffic I would expect as well as locals taking their street legal vehicles for a Sunday drive and heading back. Maybe it will reduce the number of infernal motorhomes crawling through the NP roads. 

3. It bears repeating. The proposal isn't putting in new ATV trails. There are few to no existing vehicle trails in most of the NP's. This is street legal ATV's on pavement. No big deal. If there is a dirt road or "trail" that is deemed sensitive, it can be restricted by regulation.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Looks like they decided not to allow ATV's in.

https://www.heraldextra.com/news/st...cle_57878695-adfa-584d-b5eb-a80b564ad880.html


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

My wife was shocked when I was concerned by this reversal. I think it's one of the few examples of federal land management doctrine that I can support the last few years. And it's really made me reconsider "why" I am so often anti-OHV. 

Don't get me wrong, I've had a ton of experience dealing with illegal ATV routes in roadless areas to earn that resistance. But that has nothing to do with their use on paved highways. Especially when such use is consistent with federal regulations that are supposed to defer to state vehicle laws. 

So it goes.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

backcountry said:


> ...
> I've had a ton of experience dealing with illegal ATV routes in roadless areas to earn that resistance. But that has nothing to do with their use on paved highways...


Well actually your example is one of the main issues of concern. ATV'ers have proven over and over and over again that they will NOT stay on payed roads, regardless of what rules or regulations or signage, or threats from law enforcement or promises from ATV clubs about staying on paved roads, blah, blah, blah.

You know and I know that the lawless ATV riders will once again ruin it for those who try to be good citizens.

Now don't even get me started about the "need for speed" or the totally obnoxious noise, or the dust, or the doughnuts in every parking lot, or the six year old drivers,...no, we don't need them and we don't want them racing around our national parks!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

So do we punish a vast group of people for the actions of a few? 

And I'm not convinced that we are going to see a spike in off-road ATV use in National Parks because of such a change in policy (now reversed). Most of the trails I have seen are in remote trailheads on forest service land; Utah National Parks literally see millions of people a year. It's just not probable.

Per noise, there are possible solutions to that beyond the reality that many manufacturers have already implemented changes given laws in other states. 

But it's kind of mute now. But the more I read up on how we "gatekeep" in these situations the more introspective I became to how much that informs these policies. I'm having a tougher time finding a rational reason to ignore the existing federal regulations that require national parks to defer to state vehicle laws in this case.


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