# Y'all's favorite big game lobbyist at it again



## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

SFW and Don are now lobbing for increasing the time you have between running your leg hold traps; it ain't too popular with the some segments of the general public. More bad press this time courteously of SFW

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... cates.html

From my personal experience trapping as a kid, I think 2 days is acceptable, 7 is unethical. We had to run ours every 24 hours.


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## EmptyNet (Mar 17, 2008)

*Re: Y'all's favorite big game lobbist at it again*

It was on KSL also.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=13646619


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

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Well if Don Peay wants it, it will happen. I think the 2 days is acceptable time. 
When did we all of a sudden stop caring about ethical hunting and trapping methods?
Reading that article and Don peay saying that 50% of the deer decline in the last 10 years is because of the coyotes, then why get option #2 passed as it does nothing for the coyote population. 
I think DP is so power hungry he's not even looking at what he is trying and accomplising in getting passed.
Also his numbers are slightly off 600,000 thousand deer in 2000 seems abit exagurated.


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## huntinco (Sep 23, 2007)

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I agree with Don and the SFW on the 7 days. It will realy help the guys that try to make a dent in the yotes


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Y'all's favorite big game lobbist at it again*

At what cost? I'm all for controlling numbers for the benefit of the deer herds, but this may come back on us.


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## backpacker (Mar 1, 2008)

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Ethical trapping- that's funny. Who has time to check their traps every 2 days?


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

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How often do we check mouse/rat traps in warehouses. What's the difference between stinking rats and stinking coyotes, or any other flea infested garbage can critter. If a coyote was the size of a squirrel who would give a crap? Why does the size of a piece of junk species have anything to do with how often we check a trap?

"They come at us anyway!"

Are you going to take the offensive position or tiptoe around hoping they'll like you and treat you nice so you can "murder" deer? Get over it, they hate our guts already, 2 or 7 days, is a rouse, they know 2 day's frustrates the process of killing coyotes. (Trappers can't afford to check traps every 2 days or even 4. They've quit!) You're willing to let "them" to control what we love, not me, it's time we act like we got a set and give them a taste of "backlash". Do you want deer or not?

I don't care who's promoting killing more coyotes or what every method they can dream up to do it. They are no different than city rats, rotten vermin that can't be eradicated, so pour it to them, they are killing our deer.

If ProOutdoors wants 7 days or more, I support Pro, if treehugnhuntr wants 7 days or more, I support treehugnhuntr, or if SWF wants 7 days or more, I support SWF. Do we hate SFW so much we'll let this stinking vermin take our deer? If Friends of Animals wants 7 check traps, I'd support Friends of Animals. If ya'll care so much about deer, get on board or stop acting like deer are important to you and join the other side and quit blowing smoke up our butts!


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Y'all's favorite big game lobbist at it again*

Wow!


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

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Treehugnhuntr said:


> At what cost? I'm all for controlling numbers for the benefit of the deer herds, but this may come back on us.


In what way tree. It has been my experience that most dogs caught in a leg hold are dead even with a 48hr check. Seldom did I come find live animals in my traps or snares. They fight so hard to escape they expire from exhaustion. If we are that concerned about it maybe we should outlaw leg traps and use nothing but kill traps. Would a seven day check be okay then?


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## LoneClarity (Nov 20, 2010)

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Good to see some guys on here thinking about the real problem. The goal should be to save and grow our deer herds!

However I have noticed that might not be the main objective of many on this sight. I do not agree with everything the SFW does, that is for sure. However my alliegence to a cause is not going to be swayed either way depending on where SFW stands. How many on here truely believe they can say the same?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

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Treehugnhuntr said:


> At what cost? I'm all for controlling numbers for the benefit of the deer herds, but this may come back on us.


I don't care what your reasoning may be, pushing for this is a monumental blunder on the public relations front, and we will all live to regret it. That's going to be the cost!


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

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luv2fsh&hnt said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > At what cost? I'm all for controlling numbers for the benefit of the deer herds, but this may come back on us.
> ...


I never trap out here; just don't have the time because of work. but

I caught a fair of amount of yotes back in AR and OK, most in leg holds, the rest in snares, cept for one stupid one who put his head in a coni-bear I had set on a beaver dam. I can't remember ever finding a dead (expired) coyote in my leg holds.

Most of those caught in my snares were usually dead from stranglation, if i set it right.

We were allowed to exceed the 24 hour limit with traps that were kill type sets.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: Y'all's favorite big game lobbist at it again*

+ 1 about politically misguided

What speaks volumes....AGAIN....is that the board is considering something that SFW advocates and that the division is against. Looking forward to the outcome of this one.

BTW- isn't coyote eradication basically a myth? doesn't it just cause them to reproduce at a quicker rate in response to population stress? You know...fight, flight, or breed like crazy?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

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I think the point is valid that we shouldn't like or dislike an idea just because of who supports it. It's either something we can get behind or it isn't.

I'm kind of torn on this one though. I'm all for helping the deer herds but like Tree I'm asking myself if this is really a good idea. From what I'm hearing the RAC's are shooting it down.


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## EmptyNet (Mar 17, 2008)

*Re: Y'all's favorite big game lobbist at it again*

I would have to say that the majority of people in the state are against using traps, when you see things on the news about the trapping of the family dog, what else is there to say. -)O(-


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

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EmptyNet said:


> I would have to say that the majority of people in the state are against using traps, when you see things on the news about the trapping of the family dog, what else is there to say. -)O(-


This is true........its to bad

It reminds me of the "theory" or idea that Meat comes from Wal-Mart. People in general, including most hunters have not the foggiest idea what trappers actually do for them.

Most of these people that will piss and moan are the same people calling the county complaining about racoons in there garbage can or garage, or about a skunk living and spraying in there yard.......or will call crying to the dispatch that there is a deer running around half dead with a 12" hole in its a$$ bleeding all over becuase a coyote got to it and are just beside themselves that an animal would do that to another animal.....

I have even heard hunters say no-one traps around here.........BS.

Seven days might be a little excessive, but hell five minutes is to most people.........I say piss on them, trap away. I really look at a coyote with about as much respect as a rat, yet most people dont mind killing rats/mice etc. Is it because they are small and dont resemble the family dog??????????? Probably but hell.........

For anyone that thinks trapping is wrong..........enjoy your little world of perfection and ignorance 

I think a five day requirement would be perfect.......


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

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I think 2 days is good normally but if we want to put more pressure on coyote I agree with making it 7 days. This will let me do a lot more trapping because I am not able to get out 2 days in a row.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

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So here is an honest question, why do trappers use leg traps instead of all kill sets? I only have one comment to osageorange comparing mice to coyotes is more than asinine. Also I have set many "kill" mouse traps and every time the mouse was dead the instant the trap went off. I know I will get ****, but I can handle it, that is also why I don't use adhesive mouse traps, I hate to see even a mouse suffer.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

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I admit, SFW's involvement/endorsement of this makes me leery. But, I always base my support/objection of an issue on its merits, not on who is behind it.

I haven't trapped since the 80's, so I am not going to profess to know what is best. But, I have learned that perception more often than not carries more weight than reality. And, the perception of allowing traps to go 7 days w/o being checked is negative for the overwhelming majority of Utahan's. So, I question the wisdom of this change at this time.


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

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In this great country we get to choose what camp we are going to live in, to each his own, I made my choice. Your a killer or your not. Dressing it up to try to hide our lifestyle for our conscience may not be asinine but it's smacks of something else. If you believe we're more humane than some because of the way we trap our coyotes we better get on board with the boys that protest cattle slaughter houses, turkey plants, veal cutlets, leather belts, and down comforters. Are you a herbivore or a omnivore? We are all one or the other. That blade we twist on that shaft is made for one reason, to let life blood out of our food. Every time we nock it up and turn it loose we intend to kill. Pretending otherwise just don't seem honorable. If you think we gain an ounce of creditability with the herbivores because we agree to check our traps every day or two, our education hasn't done much for our understanding of human behavior. The camp I'm in is going to stop trying to win their favor and there's only two camps. We either nock it up or hang it up, IMO, tenderly now.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

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I watched an episode of Deer and Catching Deer. Ted Nugent was a guest and I am paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact words but basically hunters need to get rid of their panties remove the curlers and quit worrying about ethics this and ethics that the end result is an animal is going to die. Ethics is another word for guilt and none of us should feel guilty about killing an animal regardless of the method used to kill that is why god put them here. If killing bothers ya you shouldn't be hunting period and I whole heartedly agree. You make me laugh Jahan you don't want to cause pain for an animal but you hunt with a bow. If you were that concerned with causing pain you would hunt with a rifle. The truth of it is nothing is quicker or less painful than a bullet. Minus poisoning trapping is the most effective way to kill large numbers of coyotes. If you don't have the testicular fortitude to do it then don't do it or if you do then check your sets every 24 hrs. The seven day rule would allow alot of people that don't have the resources or time to check every 48 hrs to remove a few more of the mangy muts along with some other varmints. Dead is dead no matter how it happens.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

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luv2fsh&hnt said:


> I watched an episode of Deer and Catching Deer. Ted Nugent was a guest and I am paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact words but basically hunters need to get rid of their panties remove the curlers and quit worrying about ethics this and ethics that the end result is an animal is going to die. Ethics is another word for guilt and none of us should feel guilty about killing an animal regardless of the method used to kill that is why god put them here. If killing bothers ya you shouldn't be hunting period and I whole heartedly agree. You make me laugh Jahan you don't want to cause pain for an animal but you hunt with a bow. If you were that concerned with causing pain you would hunt with a rifle. The truth of it is nothing is quicker or less painful than a bullet. Minus poisoning trapping is the most effective way to kill large numbers of coyotes. If you don't have the testicular fortitude to do it then don't do it or if you do then check your sets every 24 hrs. The seven day rule would allow alot of people that don't have the resources or time to check every 48 hrs to remove a few more of the mangy muts along with some other varmints. Dead is dead no matter how it happens.


Are you actually serious? "Dead is dead no matter how it happens", you say. I knew an old houndsman back in the 80's that would tree lions for clients, he would do a couple of things to keep the lion in the tree or nearby until the 'hunter' came in; 1)Leave his dogs tied up at the base of the tree, for as long as 2 days. 2)Shoot the lion in the front paws with a .22 caliber rifle so that the cat wouldn't go very far. Is that okay in your books? Is intentionally shooting a deer in the leg, then the guts, then the butt, and left overnight to die okay in your book? Killing is one thing, but we as SPORTSMEN have a DUTY to be as humane as possible and to be STEWARDS over the animals. I grew up on a beef/dairy farm, and my grandpa was adamant about treating ALL the animals with kindness, even those that were being loaded into the trailer headed for the slaughter house.

Also, an arrow through the vitals is no where near the same as leaving a coyote stuck in a leg trap for a week. Moral relativism is not something I adhere to, and to be honest I am stunned you seem to. :?


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

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Dead is dead Pro. Jahan said he wouldn't even use sticky fly paper cuz he didn't want to hurt the wittle mouse but he hunts with a bow. It happens from time to time with a bow but for dead on the shot results nothing is more effective than a rifle. Don't be going extreme on me there is a far cry from a yote caught in a leg hold and intentionally wounding an animal so a "hunter" can come shoot his "trophy". That coyote will be dead long before that week is over. Anybody that thinks an animal has no pain when shot is only fooling themselves. I just don't have any qualms about a yote or any other varmint being held in a leg hold. Maybe we should just outlaw leg holds,conibers,snares and all other trapping devices and we can all just use have a heart traps so everybody can feel warm and fuzzy inside gather round the fire have a group hug and sing kumbaya. Sheesh.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

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proutdoors said:


> Also, an arrow through the vitals is no where near the same as leaving a coyote stuck in a leg trap for a week. Moral relativism is not something I adhere to, and to be honest I am stunned you seem to. :?


Strangely I find myself agreeing with Pro on this one. When it comes to hunting and killing I am about as blood thristy a ******* as has ever been born, but leaving an animal in a leg hold trap for up to a week seems way **** excessive to me!


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## osageorange (Nov 20, 2010)

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"Moral relativism is not something I adhere to, and to be honest I am stunned you seem to".

How can you believe "Moral relativism is not something I adhere to" and then support sending a spent dairy cow off to a slaughter house? Being kind and gentle with an animal until your finished with it and then sending if off to the sights, smells and terror of a meat packer is okay with you.

We have a duty to protect and be a stewart over mule deer fawns too, I can only guess but I'd wage your Granddad would have beat a coyote to death with set of leg hobbles if he'd have come across one eating a half born holstein calf hang out of the back end of one of your cows, I'm guessing you would too.

Pro, much of your logic is consistent, I may not always agree with your logic but I can follow it because it's usually consistent and one statement follows consistently to the next, but it seems to me "the asinine one" that either you misunderstand what happens in the real world or you choice to justify it in some way I don't understand.

Oh well, like I said, we make our choices. I'll leave this topic alone now, got nothing more to add that would further clarify my belief's on vermin.


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## catmando (Sep 10, 2007)

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I hate the 48 hour trap check. But this 7 day thing will back fire and stir up more **** than even Dandy Don can handle. And in the end it will be the trappers who lose the most. YEARS ago i seen the now pres. of SFW cut trappers lower than whale poop. Now they have stuck the stick in the hornets nest, lets see how much they spend defending our right to trap. :roll:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

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osageorange said:


> We have a duty to protect and be a stewart over mule deer fawns too, I can only guess but I'd wage your Granddad would have beat a coyote to death with set of leg hobbles if he'd have come across one eating a half born holstein calf hang out of the back end of one of your cows, I'm guessing you would too.


Nope, he would have killed it as quickly as possible. I watched this MAN tear up when a cow broke its leg in a badger hole. He knew every cow by name/sight, and we had 100-150 dairy cows at any given time along with 200-300 beef cattle. I NEVER saw this MAN abuse an animal. He would get madder than a hornet if he caught us grand kids kill a sparrow just for fun.

Oh one other thing, leg hobbles were NEVER allowed to be used on his cattle! One can kill animals without abusing them or neglecting them. Every animal, even coyotes have their place in this world, so to advocate mistreatment of them is NOT what animal stewards do, IMHO. I will every coyote I can, but I will not do it via means that are less than honorable. I don't need to worry about what the anti-hunting crowd thinks, I simply keep in mind what grandpa would think of my behavior.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

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jahan said:


> So here is an honest question, why do trappers use leg traps instead of all kill sets?


It really comes down to location, location, location.........fence lines offer excellent places to set snares because you can find "choke points" or areas were the targeted animal will go through a certain point, sometimes deer trails with vegetation, narrow bridges or other natural narrow points that force the animal to go through the exact point offer excellent places to set snares. Snares also rarely need bait, scent etc.

Leg holds on the other hand are way more easy to set in all areas, because you are actually attracting the animal to the location of the trap. They are great when trapping fields, open areas were the targeted animals frequent, but don't use the same routes time and time again.

Both of these methods have their pros/cons, many trappers prefer one method over another, but for the most part in my experience, leg holds are more effective for the ever smart coyote.........but most will get wise if missed by any method and will avoid the set like the plague.

Kill sets in all honesty are not always kill sets, if set properly they will catch the animal around the neck, tightening harder as the animal struggles and will "choke them out". If not set properly, or if something goes wrong, the animal might be caught around the waist. Canines are sometimes difficult to choke out at times, because of the anatomy of the throat/wind pipe. Cats will usually choke out very, very easily. Sometimes "drowning sets" can be applied next to water and are used frequently with beavers, mink, muskrats and *****.

Jahan if you ever get the chance to spend some time with an experienced trapper, I highly recommend it as it is truly an art and not near as "barbaric" as you might think. Guys that are good are amazing to spend a little time with learning different methods/setups. Its a great way to spend the winter, and help out small/big game.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

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ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > So here is an honest question, why do trappers use leg traps instead of all kill sets?
> ...


Thanks, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. I want to make it clear I am not against trapping at all and I think it is a very key method of killing off nuisance or unwanted animals.

luv2fsh&hnt, don't get me started on rifle vs. bow, you know the answer to that question, it comes down to the hunter more than the equipment. Morals and Ethics IS a very important part of hunting, if you don't think so you are very naive. It is not a warm and fuzzy thing to me, it is a respect for my prey and a respect for mother nature. I am not saying trappers don't have ethics and morals, they absolutely do and are very important, I am just saying I don't feel that a 7 day check is the right thing or ethical thing to do. You say most animals are dead within 48 hours, but I have heard way more than you say most animals are still plenty alive in the traps after 48 hours. I am not discounting your experience, because I believe you, I am just saying I have to look at all the evidence. I get so sick and tired of this all in or not in at all mentality of people these days. This is not a black and white issue like you are osage is making it out to be. Dead is Dead, but how you get there is very different. I guess I just don't need to be the tough guy all the time and I can admit that I don't like seeing things suffer and I also feel that I have a decent understanding of how non hunters feel about issues, may it be right or wrong, perception in the pubic eye is a big deal when we are so out numbered.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

If we are going to go off perception and what the nonhunting and antis think we may as well just hang up our weapons and quit hunting or even fishing for that matter. People that were not exposed to hunting while growing up are never going to get it or side with hunters that is a fact. I would never advocate torturing animals for fun. The fact is where the overwhelming majority of trapping takes place is in remote areas the public does not frequent especially in the winter. Minus poisoning trapping is the most effective way to reduce varmint populations.I see absolutely no reason why we shouldn't make it easier for folks to stay within the bounds of the law. 7 days makes it more practical for hobbyists to get involved especially considering most work a 5 day week with 2 off. They can check and reset on their days off. These kind of rules and regulations play right into the antis hands and it is all because of the ewww factor based on emotion not facts.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> If we are going to go off perception and what the nonhunting and antis think we may as well just hang up our weapons and quit hunting or even fishing for that matter. *People that were not exposed to hunting while growing up are never going to get it or side with hunters that is a fact.* I would never advocate torturing animals for fun. The fact is where the overwhelming majority of trapping takes place is in remote areas the public does not frequent especially in the winter. Minus poisoning trapping is the most effective way to reduce varmint populations.I see absolutely no reason why we shouldn't make it easier for folks to stay within the bounds of the law. 7 days makes it more practical for hobbyists to get involved especially considering most work a 5 day week with 2 off. They can check and reset on their days off. These kind of rules and regulations play right into the antis hands and it is all because of the ewww factor based on emotion not facts.


I hate arguing with you, but I am going to anyways. :mrgreen: Your supposed fact is not a fact at all. I have many coworkers that have never been around hunting much if at all and they are fence sitters. They could care less one way or the other, this is how the majority of people are. These "fence sitters" can make or break it for hunting. I know everyone likes to beat their chest and say screw those non hunters or screw anyone who doesn't agree with us, but Nuge has it wrong in my opinion, we need to keep these fence sitters on our side or at least nuetral. Also one last thing, Antis are far different than non-hunters, so lets be careful not to lump them in the same group, nonhunters can still be a hunters allie.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Jahan - You are right about one thing....I don't worry about the anti's nor their perception of us. I worry about the fence sitters.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

But the fact is the fence sitters are going to think trapping and letting an animals suffer for even 5 minutes is cruel. The general public is so far removed from reality that I don't even consider what they think. I know I am not always right but I know where my food comes from and I know what a slaughter house looks like.


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