# Guided hunts



## utmarshman (Nov 7, 2007)

If your gonna hire a killer, hire the best! We're currently offering guided hunts for swans, geese, and ducks. Email me for more info. :lol:


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

amazing :roll:


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## utmarshman (Nov 7, 2007)

DId you have something to say or maybe a question?


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## bugleboy (Sep 25, 2007)

Do you have a website or client photos?


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

"hire the best." You must be from Fowlplayers.


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## waterproof (Oct 10, 2007)

Maybe this thread belongs in the "trading post"? :?:


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## scattergunner (Sep 21, 2007)

Ad budget a little thin, is it? :roll:


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

utmarshman said:


> If your gonna hire a killer, hire the best!


Sooooooo we're supposed to pay money for you to shoot our limit right?? I agree with rebel... thats an amazing bit of advertising..... or not. :lol: Why would I hire a killer when I prefer to shoot my own? :|


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

utmarshman said:


> DId you have something to say or maybe a question?


Both, Is this another form of free advertisment for Fowl Players??

If so I take back the amazing part, Im in no way shape or form suprised even one little bit :wink:

The hire are killer part is awesome :lol:


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

I must have missed something somewhere. Whats up with this fowl players thing? I assume they are a shady waterfowl guiding outfit by the nature of the comments.


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## humpyflyguy (Sep 10, 2007)

What ever company this guy is from, they need to look into some advertising classes. From the original post I would take that he is trying to pimp himself out as a hitman. Maybe he should post his ad on the FBI page and see how many calls he gets.


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## utmarshman (Nov 7, 2007)

Gentlmen I have absolutely nothing to do with the outfitter listed above, yes i do have photo's,no i do not shoot birds for my clients. I only guarantee shooting, killing is the clients job.I didnt know about the trading post. I am just looking for people intrsted in a fun hunt.I will try to post pics


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## bugleboy (Sep 25, 2007)

Jeez! Some of those guys are ruthless utmarshman! Oh, do you guide for ducks on Public or Private Land?


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## utmarshman (Nov 7, 2007)

All of my hunt's are on private propery except for swan's.


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## stick_man (Sep 10, 2007)

So, I haven't seen any costs posted yet. How much are your guided hunts running?


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## utmarshman (Nov 7, 2007)

I charge 150.00 per gun on all hunts


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## wingmanck (Sep 7, 2007)

150 for a day? I'm sure that's a fair, competitive price but holy $#!+!!! Thank god I can put myself on birds or I'd never be able to afford shooting a stinking duck. I'm in the wrong business :wink: Good luck to ya though! There's definitely people who'll pay it.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

where do you do your swan hunts at if you do them on public ground ?

I heard you cant not guide on public land and get paid for it.


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## Deek (Oct 5, 2007)

I have hunted with Fowl player two years ago. Let's put it this way, I would not hunt with them again.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> where do you do your swan hunts at if you do them on public ground ?
> 
> I heard you cant not guide on public land and get paid for it.


Don't think that will stop many folks including Mr. Marshman.

Guided hunts??? Everybody wants it quicker and faster now days.

"Hey I'll hire a guide"...wait "I'll just have them shoot the birds for me"....wait I'll just go to a ritzy restraunt, eat steak and say I went hunting, yea, thats what I'll do.


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## jerald (Oct 21, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> where do you do your swan hunts at if you do them on public ground ?
> 
> I heard you cant not guide on public land and get paid for it.


As if he would say where he guides people for swan on public land...and how could it possibly be illegal???


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

While I don't agree with the advertising wording he used... I do agree with the above post. There's no reason he cant guide on public land.... look at Spooner and the clients he takes on the Salt Lake. I think somebody is just a little touchy about somebody else guiding for swans. :lol: Its quickly becoming apparent that "the spot" for swans is really not much of a secret. 8)


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## huntducksordietrying (Sep 21, 2007)

I saw a whole ton of swans out at Harold Crane the other day. Plenty of big whities in range just no tag to fill this year. If I just blew someones secret about the swans  *()* :rotfl:


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## scattergunner (Sep 21, 2007)

HC for swans? No secret there. 8)


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

by Riverrat77 on Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:02 pm

While I don't agree with the advertising wording he used... I do agree with the above post. There's no reason he cant guide on public land.... look at Spooner and the clients he takes on the Salt Lake. I think somebody is just a little touchy about somebody else guiding for swans. Its quickly becoming apparent that "the spot" for swans is really not much of a secret. I dont care who guides for swan riley. Im not out guiding people for there swan i take the people that aske me if i would take them.so tehre no reason for me to get all mad over it. by the way all i said was i have heard that you cant do it. all right. I dont need his spot for swan i got my own and i do dam good there to. Dam ask a smiple Q and i get **** for it.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> I dont care who guides for swan riley. Im not out guiding people for there swan i take the people that aske me if i would take them.so tehre no reason for me to get all mad over it. by the way all i said was i have heard that you cant do it. all right. I dont need his spot for swan i got my own and i do dam good there to. Dam ask a smiple Q and i get **** for it.[/


Why question it if you didn't care?? Worried he might wind up in "your" secret spot? :lol: I've seen that spot mentioned a couple times on here so you're not the only one hunting it for swans apparently. The assumptions are what gets you shiz.... kinda like the ten shell thing. Its hilarious to me when you reply to me but there are two or three other guys who made comments both about guiding on public land and the whole "my spot" deal. 8) I've heard you talk about your spot before so I know you're **** touchy about it....


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

jerald said:


> dkhntrdstn said:
> 
> 
> > where do you do your swan hunts at if you do them on public ground ?
> ...


As long as he has the proper paperwork and permits, no issue in guiding on public.

Kinda sad as I said before though,.....quicker and faster, quicker and faster gratification. Money being the bridge over the gap. Problem is with that, is outdoorsmen(women as well obviously) will soon have to choose whether to up thier ante as well to play before too long to keep hunting. It will become a mighty expensive hobby or a "sport" you wont want to compete in.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

nope im not worryed about that spot at all. i have told people about that spot. it not a big deal. i was just woundering that. thanks guys for info.

harry thanks see i didnt get told about the paper work.now i know. good luck guiding people for there swan get them some big ones. good luck to the rest of you on your hunts.


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## JDB (Nov 16, 2007)

I can't understand why everyone hacks on each other for vairous differences of opinion on these forums. We're all hunters and as long as we hunt ethically why don't we support each other rather than rip on each other? Why should anyone care whether or not some choose to use a guide or not, hunt over decoys or take reasonable shots pass shooting, etc. We all share a love of waterfowl hunting, but we come from different backgrounds and often have different goals in our hunting pursuits. I do almost all of my hunting on my own and with friends, figuring things out on our own and still relying on the lessons taught by a loving father who instilled in me a love of hunting, fishing and all things outdoors. HOWEVER, my job has become extremely demanding over the past few years I have less time for scouting than I once did. I also do not yet have a Mud Buddy, an airboat or a trailer load of goose decoys. So once per year average I pay a guide to help me have an experience that is SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE ON MY OWN. Since I cannot afford a hundred full body goose decoys and don't have access to great private habitat, it is a very inexpensive option (relatively speaking) to hire a goose guide and have a wonderful hunt. The same goes for paying for an airboat hunt or anything else that I can't do on my own. Another plus with going with a guide once in a while is that if the guide is good you can learn new skills from them that help you to be a better (and hopefully even more ethical) hunter. If the guide offers value for the dollar they charge there is nothing wrong with a guide. I agree that it would be very, very sad if people only hunted with guides. A big part of hunting is learning through your own experience. But a guide can accelarate that learning and help provide some amazingly fun, unique and new experiences that are well worth the money. You may also make a new friend in the process. I may take heat for my view, but I would hope we could all respect one another despite our different goals as long as we are ethical and legal.


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## 357bob (Sep 30, 2007)

Amen !!!


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

As you can tell, I'm not real fond of guides. 
The reason I'm not is that they have to due with commercialization of hunting. Money is the killer along with greed. Cash and greed have been the death of many things and it will, in my opinion be the death of hunting.
Guides, gun clubs, and others lease a lot of land. With the money from our fellow sportsman, they lease more and more every year. With more and more land (farms, fields, swamps and even sagebrush flats) leased every year and off limit to regular old joe blow folks like me, the situation gets more and more competitive every year. My main case of heartburn I have about leases and clubs is when guys lease or buy all the private ground around state ground and they double, triple, quadruple or more the size of thier lease for free. 
Eitherway, I have less and less area to hunt every year, and even if I had $150 to $1000 a day or 3 or $4000 a year or whatever to pay guides, clubs etc. the decent areas that actually hold birds get more and more expensive to hunt because there are more and more people getting lazier and lazier every year and pay big money to hunt birds.
Yup thier learning curve increases dramatically, they kill a lot of birds, and they appreciate it less and less.
The main purpose of guiding is to kill birds. For an example, utmarshman says he's the best killer around. Can anybody besides me see an issue with this???
The only respect for anything is for the respect of how many birds you kill. 
I don't go out hunting and leave the gun in the truck,....yes one of the purposes of hunting is to harvest game. My dad taught me a lot of things, but I don't remember being in the field once that the numbers of birds or game shot were the main goal of being out in the field. Folks learning curves increase with guides, but not in the areas that are the most important.


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## JDB (Nov 16, 2007)

Harry,

I'm very sympathetic to the views expressed in your last post. I agree that the commercialization of hunting does have some negative consequences, but I don't think that individual guides are the biggest part of the problem. In the past 4 years I've gone on 3 guided hunts. 2 were on public land along the Wasatch front and one was out in Vernal on leased land (yep, you guessed if, Fowl Players). I think the bigger issues are simply the following:
1. Increasing Population
2. Decreasing Habitat (due to #1)
3. Increasing Affluence of society (Lot's more people can afford to join clubs, buy boats, buy large tracts of land (and either close it to hunting, lease it or create their own private hunting preserve with high fees) and yes, more people can also afford to hire guides.
4. Increasing number of hunting clubs
5. DWR's catering to land owners and conservation organizations in terms of land owner tags and tags given to conservation groups to raise funds through raffles, etc. All of this activity drives up the price of good hunting opportunities and locks us normal guys out. This is mostly a problem with big game hunting, which I think it is ruining.

There are other issues to be sure, but these are the ones that concern me the most. I don't believe, however, that hiring someone to take me out and show me new places and things and perhaps teach me new skills is really the crux of the problem, especially when those hunts are on public land.


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## utmarshman (Nov 7, 2007)

A bunch of guy's on this site are P.O because of people like myself that get paid for guiding hunt's Im sorry you feel that way but this is how i get in on some good hunting and make a little extra cash. I Think that it really does blow that everything is getting bought up and there is getting to be fewer and fewer places to go. Please dont hate player hate the game


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> As you can tell, I'm not real fond of guides.
> The reason I'm not is that they have to due with commercialization of hunting. Money is the killer along with greed. Cash and greed have been the death of many things and it will, in my opinion be the death of hunting.
> Guides, gun clubs, and others lease a lot of land. With the money from our fellow sportsman, they lease more and more every year. With more and more land (farms, fields, swamps and even sagebrush flats) leased every year and off limit to regular old joe blow folks like me, the situation gets more and more competitive every year. My main case of heartburn I have about leases and clubs is when guys lease or buy all the private ground around state ground and they double, triple, quadruple or more the size of thier lease for free.
> Eitherway, I have less and less area to hunt every year, and even if I had $150 to $1000 a day or 3 or $4000 a year or whatever to pay guides, clubs etc. the decent areas that actually hold birds get more and more expensive to hunt because there are more and more people getting lazier and lazier every year and pay big money to hunt birds.
> ...


+1

Thank god they do not allow outfitters in the great state of Idaho.


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## utmarshman (Nov 7, 2007)

natural born loser i would love to meet you face to face


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

utmarshman said:


> natural born loser i would love to meet you face to face


Whoaaaa!!!! Sounds kinda like a threat.

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion. I have mine and yours is wrong. Bwhaaahaaah _(O)_


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

utmarshman said:


> natural born loser i would love to meet you face to face


Im sure you would be impressed 8)

If this is a threat, I WILL take you up on it :twisted:


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

utmarshman said:


> natural born loser i would love to meet you face to face


Wow class act "GUIDE" right there.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

by truemule on Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:37 am

utmarshman wrote:
natural born loser i would love to meet you face to face

Wow class act "GUIDE" right there+1


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

> With more and more land (farms, fields, swamps and even sagebrush flats) leased every year and off limit to regular old joe blow folks like me, the situation gets more and more competitive every year.


This to me is quite an enigma in the discussion. On one hand, most hunters are all about conserving and protecting all form of private property rights. However, when private property owners choose to lease hunting access exclusive to a guide, hunters get ticked off about it. Anyone else see the ironic conflict there?


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

What I find funny about guides in my experience is many, many property owners are more than happy to let a guy hunt, especially waterfowl. Many see waterfowl as a nusiance destroying their crops (young hay, grain etc.) 
But...these guides are not happy with permission, they want sole rights to hunt, no one else allowed and are willing to pay farmers big money for this. So property I have hunted for years becomes off limits. In all reality oh well, private is private and if a property owner wants to do this, no big deal. 

My problem is guiding on Public Land. To me its total bs that someone can make money off birds that they do NOT own on land they do NOT own. THESE ARE FEDERAL BIRDS. If someone has to pay a couple hundred bucks to kill a duck, goose or even swan I feel bad for you, and it all comes down to I am to lazy to go scout, I will just hire a "killer", some "hunting" that is. The line of "It saves me money to hire a guide dosent work either". I can gurantee any guy out there with a dozen old decoys can drive somewhere for forty bucks and kill a limit of birds ducks, geese, or swan if they are just willing to get off their butt, hell there are young guys on here all the time that put the smack down on birds, they work for them, but you can bet they wack plenty of birds.

Like I said earlier, thank god Idaho REFUSES outfitters.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> My problem is guiding on Public Land. To me its total bs that someone can make money off birds that they do NOT own on land they do NOT own. THESE ARE FEDERAL BIRDS. If someone has to pay a couple hundred bucks to kill a duck, goose or even swan I feel bad for you, .


See, now I don't have a problem with that. If they want to get out and compete with the locals or whoever to take clients and put them on birds.... thats ok by me. They still have to get up early and make the effort to get out into the marsh like everyone else. If it got to the point that they were trying to get exclusive rights to public ground or whatever, then I'd have an issue. I guess I just don't see the big deal.... if they're willing to join the march with the rest of us... who's to say they can't do that as a job? Is it distasteful to me that some "pay for game"?? Yeah it is.... I don't know that I'd do that.... Actually, yeah, I would pay a guide to put me on birds... especially if I was going out of state seaduckin or something like that. Its not something I would make a habit of but doing it once for a once in a lifetime wallhanger would be justifiable to me. Just my thought.... Basically... I'm with you in that I feel sorry for folks who feel they HAVE to pay a guide to get on birds but as long as he's out working hard for his birds right with the rest of the public land hunters, then I'd say he's entitled to claim that as his line of work. 8)


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## sprigz (Nov 20, 2007)

I don't have a problem with people helping others get birds; that's great. However, when money becomes involved then people start to lose their heads. Enter guides. Guides are extremely competitive and seem to go to any length possible to be top dog; probably because their income depends on their success. I know several guides who will locate people's trail cams, download the owner’s pictures, remove any large buck and bull photos, and then reinstall the remaining photos. I have watched guides sneak onto private property, without permission, for quick hunts. I have heard of guides who call other guides and pose as hunters, hoping to extract information about hunting locations, prices, etc. I have even heard of a SWAN guide in UTAH who calls other swan guides and yells at them for stealing their business (hopefully I'm not singling anyone out here). With all the criticism that we take as hunters, do we honestly need things like this going on? It's ridiculous. It's one think to share your skills and make a few bucks doing it. It's another to be a complete jack ass.


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## utmarshman (Nov 7, 2007)

I just wanted to say Im sure most of you are great people and it would probably be fun to share a blind but there are a few that just want be a pain in rear.and just for the record I dont hunt any public marshes. all my hunt's are conducted on private property. All Im doing is helping people get their birds,it's not like I shoot the bird's for the client. most of my client's are just people that dont have time to spend scouting.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

utmarshman said:


> I just wanted to say Im sure most of you are great people and it would probably be fun to share a blind but there are a few that just want be a pain in rear.and just for the record I dont hunt any public marshes. all my hunt's are conducted on private property. All Im doing is helping people get their birds,it's not like I shoot the bird's for the client. most of my client's are just people that dont have time to spend scouting.


Trying to explain guiding to many of the pinheads on here is wasted breath, some feel like putting down one type of hunting somehow elevates their preferred method(s). Been there, done that.

PRO


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

I hate being a pinhead, but don't try and $hit me about what guides goals and reasoning for doing what they do,...... I'm not your mother.

I'll keep it simple and not rant and rave, but guides goals and mission with thier clients whether they be noobies (which a large percentage are) or novices (I don't think many experts bother hiring guides) are to kill as many birds possible and 'gettin er done. Little else is considered. 

Ethics, appreciation, respect, patience, values, basic principals, regard, detail, etc., etc., etc., are quite rare and/or non existant.
Kind of like a racecar driver giving a 13 or 14 year his or her first driving lesson.......pretty ugly picture isn't it.

Look back at the first post of the thread and tell me it "ain't" so.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> I hate being a pinhead, but don't try and $hit me about what guides goals and reasoning for doing what they do,...... I'm not your mother.
> 
> I'll keep it simple and not rant and rave, but guides goals and mission are to kill as many birds possible and 'gettin er done. Little else is considered.
> 
> ...


That is like being an anti-hunter and saying all hunters are child molesters/rapists/murderers. Such a blanket and ignorant assertion is assinine!

In fact, I believe MOST guides, regardless of species involved, are atleast, if not MORE, ethical, appreciative, respectful, patient, principaled, etc., etc., as 'average joes' and DIY hunters.

PRO


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Harry Nutzack said:
> 
> 
> > I hate being a pinhead, but don't try and $hit me about what guides goals and reasoning for doing what they do,...... I'm not your mother.
> ...


"If your gonna hire a killer, hire the best! We're currently offering guided hunts for swans, geese, and ducks. Email me for more info."

Again, this is what its about. Killing, not a whole lot more. At least utmarshman isn't trying to blow smoke up anyones wazooo like your attempting to.

Nope, not interested in hiring a "killer". I think I'll pass and I'll persuade others to avoid it as well.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

First, I am NOT trying to blow smoke up anyones "wazooo". I have no need to.

Second, I agree his choice of words were poorly used. But, that does not excuse *your* comment: "Ethics, appreciation, respect, patience, values, basic principals, regard, detail, etc., etc., etc., are quite rare and/or non existant.
Kind of like a pornstar teaching 13 or 14 year old about sex.......pretty ugly picture isn't it" is atleast as poor choice of words and does NOT reflect greatly on *your* type of hunter, whatever that may be. It has been years since I have guided waterfowl hunters, I now just guide big game hunters, but over the course of 20+ years in the guiding business, I have found only a very small percentage of guides are as you described, just as I have found that only a very small percentage of hunters are as judgemental as you appear. But, as we all know, it is the 'bad apples' that stand out and get noticed. I won't say all hunters named "Harry" are slob hunters if you don't lump all guides as unethical "killers". What do you say, deal?

PRO


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> First, I am NOT trying to blow smoke up anyones "wazooo". I have no need to.
> 
> Second, I agree his choice of words were poorly used. But, that does not excuse *your* comment: "Ethics, appreciation, respect, patience, values, basic principals, regard, detail, etc., etc., etc., are quite rare and/or non existant.
> Kind of like a pornstar teaching 13 or 14 year old about sex.......pretty ugly picture isn't it" is atleast as poor choice of words and does NOT reflect greatly on *your* type of hunter, whatever that may be. It has been years since I have guided waterfowl hunters, I now just guide big game hunters, but over the course of 20+ years in the guiding business, I have found only a very small percentage of guides are as you described, just as I have found that only a very small percentage of hunters are as judgemental as you appear. But, as we all know, it is the 'bad apples' that stand out and get noticed. I won't say all hunters named "Harry" are slob hunters if you don't lump all guides as unethical "killers". What do you say, deal?
> ...


Bwhaaahaaa. Do you think my real name is Harry Nutzack????

I'm not business minded when it comes to hunting and strike very few "deals" in the field so I guess no deal and I'll stand by my statements off color or not that guides are indeed hired killers, are part of the commercialization of the sport, and many are indeed unethical slobs.

I DO equate it the way I described it. When, during your extensive and unlimmited time with your clients, do you have to teach them Ethics, appreciation, respect, patience, values, basic principals, regard, detail, etc., etc., etc.?

I know and am 100% sure your teaching them about the killing part. I also know a dozen guides who will do just about everything and anything to achieve that goal. 
Isn't killing the way you make your money? If you don't kill and kill and kill and your focus is on ethics, values, appreciation, respect, patients, values, etc. you would be broke and no longer a guide very quickly. 
Again, since you chose to quote it and bring it up rather than my edited my version...... *it is *very similar to my example I mentioned about having porn stars teach kids about sex. 
Killing is the main focus of a guide whether you choose to acknowledge this or not. Blow all the smoke you want, and get all ruffled up about being confronted on it or not, it's the nature of what guiding is. 
What, since killing is the main focus of guiding, teaching your newbie clients with all thier money and patients???


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I don't know how to respond to such jibberish.

When you head for the hills/marshes/fields/etc. to hunt, is not your PRIMARY goal to kill? Yet, you still follow the law/ethics/appreciation/respect/patience/values/basic principles/regard/detail/etc., correct? If the answer is yes, then why is that so hard to believe guides do the *same*? Isn't that a little near-sighted and self-righteous? If you truly "know a dozen guides who will do just about anything and everything to achieve that goal", have you done your civic duty and turned them in? Do *you* have evidence to support your claims? If so, bring it to light, if not are you not acting like a jackal and just making a lot of noise with no bite?

Many hunters whom I guide DO in fact learn MANY/ALL the principles you speak of while on the pursuit of whatever critter we are hunting. I know and am 100% sure there are more 'average joe' hunters lacking the attributes you speak of than guides. Do you deny this? If so, HOW?



> Killing is the main focus of a guide whether you choose to acknowledge this or not. Blow all the smoke you want, and get all ruffled up about being confronted on it or not, it's the nature of what guiding is.


As I mentioned, could the same be said about any/ALL hunters? Just change the wording to the following:


> Killing is the main focus of a *hunter *whether you choose to acknowledge this or not. Blow all the smoke you want, and get all ruffled up about being confronted on it or not, it's the nature of what *hunting* is.


 See how nonsensical your comments are? :roll:

PRO


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

If you don't know how to respond to my jibberish,....no problem, feel free to stop replying to me.

Your driving your own point home. Yup, there are general hunters who have been taught the same skills and direction as they would have recieved from guides......none or poor ones. 
Many of the slobs are more than likely your and other guides previous clients showing off what they learned from you.
I think a lot of these same guys probably also learned a lot of thier hunting and ethics from "Falling Skies 27" and the Hunting Channel.

I said in a previous post that when I go out hunting I don't leave the gun in the truck. Yes, I do harvest game, but it is far from the main reason I go hunting, can you say the same thing when you guide (*REMEMBER, YOUR NOT A KID AND I'M NOT YOUR MOTHER*)???

Guides=payment for killing. If you advertized Ethics, appreciation, respect, patience, values, basic principals, regard, detail, as part of your business you would also probably go broke. People who are using your services are expecting you to deliver what they paid for, the killing, nothing else. If you were to squeeze in some values and ethics, in somewhere its doubtful it would sink in, they have payed to kill. 
Killing IS part of the hunt, but again those with this being the only thing in mind truly don't appreciate it. How can you truely appreciate something that is given to you rather than earned??? There is very little respect, appreciation, balance, or regard, whatsoever.

Hunting is a wonderful opportunity and a beautiful thing. It isn't nor should it ever be a business. Again, money and greed have been the death of many things......


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> Many of the slobs are more than likely your and other guides previous clients showing off what they learned from you.


They most certainly did NOT learn slob behavior from hunting with me. I'll put my ethics in the field up against yours any day, anytime cowboy.



> Your driving your own point home. Yup, there are general hunters who have been taught the same skills and direction as they would have *recieved *from guides......none or poor ones.


At least they would know how to use spell-check. :wink: I wonder how you are able to know what attributes I pass on to clients w/o ever having met me. How do you do that? I imagine with such powers you are wealthy beyond measure. :roll:



> I said in a previous post that when I go out hunting I don't leave the gun in the truck. Yes, I do harvest game, but it is far from the main reason I go hunting, can you say the same thing when you guide (*REMEMBER, YOUR NOT A KID AND I'M NOT YOUR MOTHER*)???


Dang, thanks for the reminder, for a second I thought you were.  Guess what bright eyes, the main reason I guide is *NOT* to witness a 'kill' or get rich. I seriously doubt you have ever sat down and 'talked' with ANY real guides, little lone "know a dozen" of them. I call BS!



> Guides=payment for killing. If you *advertized *Ethics, appreciation, respect, patience, values, basic principals, regard, detail, as part of your business you would also probably go broke. People who are using your services are expecting you to deliver what they paid for, the killing, nothing else. If you were to squeeze in some values and ethics, in somewhere its doubtful it would sink in, they have payed to kill.
> Killing IS part of the hunt, but again those with this being the only thing in mind truly don't appreciate it. How can you *truely* appreciate something that is given to you rather than earned??? There is very little respect, appreciation, balance, or regard, whatsoever.


Again, spell-check is FREE!

This entire paragraph is absolute evidence of you having a complete lack of first hand knowledge of why HUNTERS guide and hire guides. This paragraph is 100% false. *Before* I accept a clients money, we agree on MANY terms, ethics is the FIRST, what type of animal we will be *attempting* to kill is LAST. And, some of the biggest tips and best new friends I have made over the years came from clients who did NOT kill. *If* all guides and guided hunters are as you claim, how is this possible?



> Again, money and greed have been the death of many things......


So have jealousy and ignorance! 

PRO


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## utmarshman (Nov 7, 2007)

Harry nutzack I just wanted to say ya you are right about my choice of wording . But I kinda think you are too hard on guides. example!!! I spent Three night's in a blind with an slightly autistic boy trying to help him get his first swan. we were finally successful at getting him his bird,and I did it for free. Can you say that you have ever done anything like that?


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## Blue Steel (Sep 29, 2007)

While I can't remember ever hearing anyone say that they were going to hire a guide to teach them to be a more ethical hunter, I do think it's funny when these posts come up. As far as I'm concerned, we hunters are the sole reason guides can exist. Everybody has antler envy these days. Most people can't be happy with harvesting a 2 point, when they see someone else shot a nice 4 point. Everybody watching hunting videos, and drooling at the sight of 400" bulls, and geese and ducks raining from the sky, think thats the way it should be every time in the field. Enter the guide, he offers the chance for you to live one of those video taped moments for a fee. While I personally would never patronize a guide, I can't really find fault with someone making a living hunting as long as they are doing it legally. I do think that hunting is becoming too commercialized, but I also realize that hunters are the main reason for this. When someone is telling me a story about the deer head on the wall, I do lose a little interest when(or if)they mention it was on a guided hunt. I guess the stories about stumbling onto the monster of a lifetime might just give me a little hope.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Dang "PRO" so I get an "F" grade on my last posts for spelling errors. I am seriously bummed out now.
I'm not going to grade any of your papers/posts so don't worry about me critiquing any of your work. By the way, did I spell critiquing right? I'm not sure (**** another "F" coming my way).

Ethics "cowboy". Right from the get go, what's ethical about receiving payment to take someone out hunting? Making money off a limited and natural resource. Those birds (or I guess in your case deer and elk) aren't yours to make money off to begin with unless of course your into canned hunts which is also, by the way is a beautiful thing.

I've already described for you how I know what positive attributes you contribute to clients. I'll call you out and call B.S. on you if many of your hunts you come up empty handed and your still a guide. Guides don't get repeat hunts for producing nothing. 

I think it would be a fantastic can of worms for me to start naming off guides who are slob guides that I personally know, but I think I'll pass on naming them off. Generally speaking, there are four of them down around Utah Lake/Elberta area that guide for geese, three that guide up on the Fishlake range for Elk, and a couple more that you probably know right up in your neck of the woods, so you got me, I only know nine off the top of my head. The one guy I knew from college down in Panguitch that guided for lions got busted good and isn't a guide anymore. If I had video of any of them doing illegal activity, I'd turn them in a heartbeat. Everything besides video evidence, I've been told is hearsay and despite my reporting violations I've never seen anything done to these guys. I could pursue it myself, but it would be my word against theirs. I've also heard third hand of some other "quality" guides as well, as well as many in the news and in the "police beat" in the news papers when they've been picked off for illegal hunting activities with thier clients........ does that count???

Why do people throw out the jealousy card for garbage behavior. How could someone be jealous of something that has no merit?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> I've already described for you how I know what positive attributes you contribute to clients. I'll call you out and call B.S. on you if many of your hunts you come up empty handed and your still a guide. Guides don't get repeat hunts for producing nothing.


Since I guide 100% on public land, *some*, not all/many, end without an animal hitting the ground. Any guide/outfitter that is 100% successful is someone I have never met, heard of, or guides high-fence, one of the three.



> Why do people throw out the jealousy card for garbage behavior. How could someone be jealous of something that has no merit?


Can you please list the "garbage behavior" that* I *have either endorsed, taught, or preformed?

Speaking of no merit, you have yet to show *any* reasons for believing your claims hold *any* merit. Like I said, if you have *first hand knowledge* of illegal activities by guides and have NOT reported them to the authorities, you are as guilty as they are. If it is "third hand" info, it holds no merit. If, it is the first, your opinions most certainly hold no merit or credibility.

PRO


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> > I've already described for you how I know what positive attributes you contribute to clients. I'll call you out and call B.S. on you if many of your hunts you come up empty handed and your still a guide. Guides don't get repeat hunts for producing nothing.
> 
> 
> Since I guide 100% on public land, *some*, not all/many, end without an animal hitting the ground. Any guide/outfitter that is 100% successful is someone I have never met, heard of, or guides high-fence, one of the three.
> ...


Can you please list the "garbage behavior" that* I *have either endorsed, taught, or preformed?

Speaking of no merit, you have yet to show *any* reasons for believing your claims hold *any* merit. Like I said, if you have *first hand knowledge* of illegal activities by guides and have NOT reported them to the authorities, you are as guilty as they are. If it is "third hand" info, it holds no merit. If, it is the first, your opinions most certainly hold no merit or credibility.

PRO[/quote:wdbkritm]

Bwahhaaahaaa (nonsense word put in place for laughing and incorrectly spelled I'm sure)

You don't recognize all the friggin outfitters and guides who have been busted for illegal and unethical behavior since it is third hand information and people I don't personally know????? There are a fair share of them getting busted all the time, they don't stand out too well sometimes as thier only listed under thier name and no mention of them being a guide or outfitter.

Like I said in my last post, I've reported violations. No satisfaction as of yet, but I hope at least it's a paper trail that can be used to put the hammer down at a later date.

Back to the ethics dude. Do you feel justified being paid to kill a natural and limited resource which isn't yours?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> You don't recognize all the friggin outfitters and guides who have been busted for illegal and unethical behavior since it is third hand information and people I don't personally know????? There are a fair share of them getting busted all the time, they don't stand out too well sometimes as *thier *only listed under *thier* name and no mention of them being a guide or outfitter.


And I gather from this you believe no 'average joe' hunters have ever been busted for illegal and unethical behavior, right? :roll:



> Back to the ethics dude. Do you feel justified being paid to kill a natural and limited resource which isn't yours?


I absolutely feel guiding on public land where it is 100% legal and beneficial to the 'resource' and the community is ethical and justifiable. Since the 'owner'(the state) of this "natural and limited resource" tells me it is okay to get paid to assist others pursue certain animals, I fill 'entitled', justified, and privileged to do so.

PRO


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> > You don't recognize all the friggin outfitters and guides who have been busted for illegal and unethical behavior since it is third hand information and people I don't personally know????? There are a fair share of them getting busted all the time, they don't stand out too well sometimes as *thier *only listed under *thier* name and no mention of them being a guide or outfitter.
> 
> 
> And I gather from this you believe no 'average joe' hunters have ever been busted for illegal and unethical behavior, right? :roll:
> ...


I absolutely feel guiding on public land where it is 100% legal and beneficial to the 'resource' and the community is ethical and justifiable. Since the 'owner'(the state) of this "natural and limited resource" tells me it is okay to get paid to assist others pursue certain animals, I fill 'entitled', justified, and privileged to do so.

PRO[/quote:2elmh7n2]

Sure, there are a fair percentage of slob hunters out there. Having someone make money slobbing slob hunters makes it twice as wrong not right!!!

Guiding is up for debate in many states of of the U.S. and in provinces of Canada due to the many negative effects it has that your are defending. 
By the way, just how in the #[email protected]! would guiding be beneficial to the resource???????????

THE STATE DOES NOT OWN THESE ANIMALS OR BIRDS. NO ONE DOES. 
"PIMPING" A NATURAL RESOURCE MAY NOT FALL UNDER ETHICS REAL WELL, BUT AT MINIMUM IT ISN'T AN ADMIRABLE ACTIVITY.

*AGAIN*, guiding, whether or not you yourself are up for guide of the year due to your unbelieveable and unparalleled ethics and values that YOU personally go above and beyond to teach your clients is.... no matter how you stack it, shovel it, or pile it, basically a medium for folks to push the grey and many times the red to fullfill their contracts of killing. Try all you want to justify it, but I have a hard time not smelling what your pushing out the backend of the bull.


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## J-bass (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm looking for a real easy hunt. I don't really care what it is, but I just kind of want to blast something. I'm not really too focused on "rules", or "regulations" as it were. Does anyone know a guide I can get who fits these paramaters? Pro? Nutzack? The cheaper and sloppier the better.
Thanks! :wink:


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

J-bass said:


> I'm looking for a real easy hunt. I don't really care what it is, but I just kind of want to blast something. I'm not really too focused on "rules", or "regulations" as it were. Does anyone know a guide I can get who fits these paramaters? Pro? Nutzack? The cheaper and sloppier the better.
> Thanks! :wink:


Shuuure J bass, stir the pot, right when Pro and I were getting to see eye to eye. :lol:


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## J-bass (Oct 22, 2007)

Ah come on, that was a fun little argument you had going. That was a pot that needed stirring!!! Where's the left hook? Pro, come back at 'im with an uppercut!!! Let's do this thing!!!


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## westcanyonranch (8 mo ago)

Being that this is an older thread, I doubt anyone will really see my comment. After reading through some of the comments on this thread there seems to be a common misunderstanding of what a guided hunt is. 
A hunting guide often has private land with a maintained herd or animals. 
Regular permits aren't required as the outfitter works with the state. 
The guide does not take the shot, simply takes you to your desired game and crosses their finger that you are a good shot. 
Guided hunting generally isn't for an experienced hunter. Most often it is someone who is newer to hunting, has a time crunch or has specific desires about the game they shoot.
The price of guided hunts ranges considerably depending on what other options are included. 
To learn more about guided hunting, check this link out.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Interesting. 4000 acres of high fenced property. Isn't that a considered a canned hunt? 

When your inventory of critters gets low. How do you get more behind that high fence?

Just wondering.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

JerryH said:


> Interesting. 4000 acres of high fenced property. Isn't that a considered a canned hunt?
> 
> When your inventory of critters gets low. How do you get more behind that high fence?
> 
> Just wondering.


It seems to meet all the criteria of a canned hunt. Guaranteed shots, captive game, etc. Hemingway said that one can gain experience in two ways, either through effort or buying it. The link above describes the latter, and would probably appeal to somebody like, say, DJTJ. Quality hunt for a quality guy. Yep!


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Paddler - I find it amusing you report a post that contains “California” and “democrat” as being inappropriate, but not a few hours later, throw shade at DJTJ. C’mon man, don’t be a hypocritical snowflake!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Paddler - I find it amusing you report a post that contains “California” and “democrat” as being inappropriate, but not a few hours later, throw shade at DJTJ. C’mon man, don’t be a hypocritical snowflake!


That wasn't political nor hypocritical. It was a reference to DJTJ's hunt in Mongolia where he shot first and secured his permit later, receiving special treatment from the government in the bargain. Also his shooting a cougar and a bear on successive days here in Utah. He doesn't sound like the kind of guy who works very hard for his "trophies". I think he'd be right at home on the hunt described above. Thanks for the feedback.

Those purely political posts had nothing to do with the outdoors, were clear violations of the forum rules, yet stood until well after I reported them. I could have replied in kind, but thought it better to just clean up the thread. I don't think an equally political post by me would have lasted nearly as long. Methinks there's a bit of bias in the moderation here.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

paddler said:


> That wasn't political nor hypocritical. It was a reference to DJTJ's hunt in Mongolia where he shot first and secured his permit later, receiving special treatment from the government in the bargain. Also his shooting a cougar and a bear on successive days here in Utah. He doesn't sound like the kind of guy who works very hard for his "trophies". I think he'd be right at home on the hunt described above. Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Those purely political posts had nothing to do with the outdoors, were clear violations of the forum rules, yet stood until well after I reported them. I could have replied in kind, but thought it better to just clean up the thread. I don't think an equally political post by me would have lasted nearly as long. Methinks there's a bit of bias in the moderation here.


Makes sense. To be honest, I check the forum about once a day - sometimes less because there are much better things to do instead of checking the forum every 30 seconds for a rule breaker or a flagged post. I’ll gladly relinquish the “mod” role to someone else if they want to police every post in the exact moment it’s posted. Hence the report button. I’m pretty sure the post you reported was taken care of in due time. Am I incorrect?

You and I both know you’d never take a shot at a person who identifies as a democrat, if they did the same thing(s) that DJTJ did. Just for the record, I’m not a huge fan of the crap that joker pulled either.

The first sentence of your second paragraph is spot on - political posts have no place being here. Keep hitting the report button and we’ll keep trying to make this forum a good place.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Makes sense. To be honest, I check the forum about once a day - sometimes less because there are much better things to do instead of checking the forum every 30 seconds for a rule breaker or a flagged post. I’ll gladly relinquish the “mod” role to someone else if they want to police every post in the exact moment it’s posted. Hence the report button. I’m pretty sure the post you reported was taken care of in due time. Am I incorrect?
> 
> *You and I both know you’d never take a shot at a person who identifies as a democrat, if they did the same thing(s) that DJTJ did. Just for the record, I’m not a huge fan of the crap that joker pulled either.*
> 
> The first sentence of your second paragraph is spot on - political posts have no place being here. Keep hitting the report button and we’ll keep trying to make this forum a good place.


"You and I" know nothing of the sort. That's your bias showing.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

paddler said:


> "You and I" know nothing of the sort. That's your bias showing.


Bias and knowledge are two different things - pretty basic vocabulary.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

paddler said:


> …I know nothing…


I agree!


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Nothing like resurrecting a 15-year old thread...just with different characters! 😉

Now here's my question...who's side did you agree with? Personally, I thought 1ManBand was doing a fine job of making an arse of himself...but that's just me. Anyone else care to share?


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

You took the time to read it all


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Kinda like a bad movie that you get sucked into just to see how it ends 🙄


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> Kinda like a bad movie that you get sucked into just to see how it ends 🙄


The movie Rubber.... so bad even the director couldn't figure out how to end it.

-DallanC


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

I'm still waiting to hear how they get new fresh animals inside that high fence?

Buy them from the state? Or animal auctions? Turkeys could fly over that fence I suppose. Ya know lure them over with some good bait? Turkeys would be their highest gross margin profit at $3,500 a piece.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

High fence areas are a part of our world. Whether some hunters feel that its a canned hunt or not doesn't really matter. Staying united as hunters is the bigger picture. I don't care if someone hunts high fence due to time alotment, money, not physically able to do state hunts, opportunity or a hundred other reasons. Maybe they don't have a good reason (according to us) at all. Use Cheese or a fly on your hook, shoot pheasants that have been planted or wild, hunt elk or whitetails in a high fence or not.....who cares. We have bigger fish to fry and to protect hunting rights/privileges from bigger organizations than fighting other hunters on LEGAL things that we don't see eye to eye on based on our ethics. Just a thought worth throwing out there. As my mom would say,...."Can't we all just get along"?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

2:22 said:


> High fence areas are a part of our world. Whether some hunters feel that its a canned hunt or not doesn't really matter. Staying united as hunters is the bigger picture. I don't care if someone hunts high fence due to time alotment, money, not physically able to do state hunts, opportunity or a hundred other reasons. Maybe they don't have a good reason (according to us) at all. Use Cheese or a fly on your hook, shoot pheasants that have been planted or wild, hunt elk or whitetails in a high fence or not.....who cares. We have bigger fish to fry and to protect hunting rights/privileges from bigger organizations than fighting other hunters on LEGAL things that we don't see eye to eye on based on our ethics. Just a thought worth throwing out there. As my mom would say,...."Can't we all just get along"?


That’s chit. We shouldn’t have to put up with things guys do or support it, just because it’s “legal”. There’s all kinds of clowns and idiots out there on social media, publishing all kinds of extremely unethical content for the entire world to see, that is doing far more harm than hunters fighting with each other or calling other “hunters” out for the things they are doing for attention. Just because they buy a hunting license and it’s “legal” does not mean we have to support what they are doing and showing the world what’s going on.


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## 2:22 (Jan 31, 2013)

MooseMeat said:


> That’s chit. We shouldn’t have to put up with things guys do or support it, just because it’s “legal”. There’s all kinds of clowns and idiots out there on social media, publishing all kinds of extremely unethical content for the entire world to see, that is doing far more harm than hunters fighting with each other or calling other “hunters” out for the things they are doing for attention. Just because they buy a hunting license and it’s “legal” does not mean we have to support what they are doing and showing the world what’s going on.


So Moose, you are saying that if a guy is in a wheel chair but his way of participating in a "Hunt" is going to a high fenced area to hunt, that is wrong and we need to classify him as a clown or idiot? Interesting. There are all sorts of reasons that people don't hunt the way you do. Maybe they would like to but that's not in the cards form them. Placing everyone in your bubble seems a bit short sighted.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

2:22 said:


> So Moose, you are saying that if a guy is in a wheel chair but his way of participating in a "Hunt" is going to a high fenced area to hunt, that is wrong and we need to classify him as a clown or idiot? Interesting. There are all sorts of reasons that people don't hunt the way you do. Maybe they would like to but that's not in the cards form them. Placing everyone in your bubble seems a bit short sighted.


Absolutely not. I don’t have any issues with high fence. But there’s a pile of influencers that hunt for a paycheck that have zero ethics and show the world that. I refuse to support those idiots just because they are “hunters”


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