# BH209 powder is FILTHY



## DallanC

So I converted my Remington 700ML over to a sealed breech design. Along with fixing what I consider a design issue with the gun, the breech is now "supported" which means I can try BH209.

I finally got out to shoot the other night, primarily to make sure the ignition is reliable and bolt works without any issues. My son got to shoot his ML700 with good old reliable yet dirty Pyrodex. After the session, he cleaned most of the gun before having to run to work, so I finished cleaning it for him. I also thought I would inspect my gun and what the bore looked like after shooting this "magical" BH209 powder.

I inspected it visually first, and could not believe how dark and rough the bore looked from powder residue. I ran several patches through it and this is what I found:










Patch 1 came out extremely dark from soot. 
Patch 2 came out even darker as the cleaner soaked in and broke deposits loose.
Patch 3 was as dark as patch 1
Patch 4 finally started to show diminishing powder left in the bore
Patch 5 is honestly what I thought a first patch should have looked like after a prolonged shooting period with this magical "no need to swab between shots powder because it burns to clean".
I completed swabbing the gun until I got a pristine patch, then finished with a light coating of borebutter. Honestly, it took as many patches to clean as Pyrodex.

Here's the kicker... how many shots would you guess I shot before that first cleaning patch? Half dozen? A dozen? 20? 30?

THREE. Three shots and the gun was this filthy. I noticed by the third shot my groups were wandering off to the right of center. Sabot felt really rough going down the bore too, which is an indication of fouling, which increases sidewall friction which melts sabots which means accuracy goes right to hell.

So... I guess its back to a swabbing shot between rounds yet again for utmost accuracy. I should have saved the conversion kit $$$, the ungodly cost of BH209 and just stuck with good old pyrodex, swabbing between shots.

Really wish the real world experience lived up to the hype. At least the gun is 100x easier to clean with the conversion kit (no more blowback into the bolt).

Very disappointed in BH209 powder though.

-DallanC


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## Critter

I agree on the BH. I don't know where people say that it is a cleaner burning powder. My problem with it is that good old Pyrodex is just as good as BH209 in my TC Triumph, so I saw no need to keep buying the expensive stuff when the old cheaper works just as well.


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## taxidermist

Dallan, now you just made me mad! I spent $40 plus with tax for a whopping 10oz. plastic bottle of the BH209.


I wanted to do the same "testing" like you did, and see if there was any difference in velocity between BH and FFF 777. Along with accuracy. Why didn't you post your findings before I got this?? LOL Sportsmans said they had 78 bottles come in on the last shipment four days prior to me getting a bottle. (only had 2 on the shelf) 


I'm shooting this Sunday, and I'll post my findings both velocity, accuracy, cleanliness, and opinion. I'll be shooting my .45 CVA Optima Pro and my T/C .50 Pro Hunter.


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## Springville Shooter

My experience was the exact opposite when switching from 777 to BH209. I have never done a patch study but have shot up to 10shots between cleaning without any considerable change in friction during loading or diminished accuracy. 

When I first switched over, I shot a clean barrel shot at 100 yards to check zero. The shot landed within a MOA of my POA. I then shot 8 shots at gongs, targets, rocks, etc. I fired the 10th shot at the original target and it hit 1.5 inches from the first shot. 

My BH 209 load has killed 6 deer so far without any mis or hang fires and no cleaning throughout the entire season.

I’m sold.————SS


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## bowgy

I just bought a new CVA and I bought the 209 breech plug for it. I wasn't too impressed, I tried several powder charges from 80 to 100 grains and several bullet weights, 250, 290 and 300.

I pulled the new breech plug and put the one in that came with the gun and went back to 777, I am much happier with the results. Now I just need to fine tune the loads.


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## justismi28

I use BH209 and yes it does take time to clean at the end of a shooting session but I've never experienced a significant accuracy drop off like mentioned. I've done consecutive shot tests to see how many I could get off before loading became hard and have gone as high as 30 in a row without any noticeable accuracy drop off. Toby Bridges (I know he's biased in his opinions) does a 50 consecutive shot test yearly. No swabbing and shoots one ragged hole through 50 shots, at least that's the results he publishes. 

Here is 10 shots strung together with 5-10 minutes between shots to cool in mid July this year with a right to left breeze. No swabbing between, off my backpack prone.


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## RandomElk16

I mean... it's still black powder igniting in a barrel...


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## taxidermist

I always clean after 3 shots when checking accuracy. Cleaning is part of the game when it comes to the front stuffers. I'm one of those guys that has to find what's the bid deal of something by using my own findings. If the BH doesn't out perform the 777in accuracy, and velocity. I'll go back to 777. I don't see the value in spending $10 more, and 6oz. less of powder for bottle of powder.


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## Packout

I like FFF Black, so after a few shots I don't even need to patch the ball...... 

Too bad the BH didn't work-- but the positive is that will just save you money over time.


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## plottrunner

My problem with BH209 is that it's loose. I prefer pellets due to the convenience of them and not having to measure powder. The only time I have had problem's with them is trying to shoot barnes 250gr mz's. I cannot get them to group with pellets or loose powder. My gun just doesn't like them. With 2-777 pellets, I can shoot great groups all day long when shooting xtp's. I also shot 15+ rounds at a time without dry patching or swabbing and didn't have any problems with loading.


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## woodskis

Critter said:


> I agree on the BH. I don't know where people say that it is a cleaner burning powder. My problem with it is that good old Pyrodex is just as good as BH209 in my TC Triumph, so I saw no need to keep buying the expensive stuff when the old cheaper works just as well.


I am shooting a TC triumph and find the same thing....... so I still shoot good ole Pyrodex too.


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## Roboz

I have never used anything but BH209 so i dont know any thing about the other powders. but i never swab between shots, granted i only shoot 10-12 rounds each outing but i have never found my groups to open up or for it to be hard to load in either my TC or Optima.


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## taxidermist

I shot Sunday to make sure everything was still on. I also "tested" the BH 209. 


1- BH is NOT as fine as 777 and it leads to me to think it is a FF equivalent. I use FFF 777.

2- Velocity isn't any different compared to 777. I noticed higher variations between shots with the BH (assuming it is larger granular powder) 20-80 fps compared to 10-25 fps with 777.


3-Cleaning was the same. I cleaned after every third shot.


4- Accuracy was a small difference at 100 yds. 200 yds. the BH had a 4" grouping compared to 3" with 777. (4 shots fired)


I think I'll stick with the 777 and save $10 and get an xtra 6oz.


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## DallanC

Took the family up again yesterday and burned some more powder. I learned 2 more things:

1). In my gun, a quick swab ever couple shots had tighter groups than just firing without swabbing.

2). BH209 does not come close to burning all its powder, even at only a 90gr charge. I shot over a chronograph and unburned powder granules actually broke though the plastic face of my crony. Looked like it was hit with a shotgun. I actually have a protective guard for the crony, just forgot to throw it in my gear bag.

So IMO, people shooting 150 or 200gr of BH209 are wasting alot of that, its just not burning completely.

But... on the pro side, it is easier to clean up than pyro... fwiw

3). Smokepoles are fun to shoot... no matter what powder you are using. KAAABOOOOOMMMMM 


*Edit: Oh yea, and during our shooting session, about a dozen shots each gun (2 mls + my wife brought her 243), amusingly we had deer actually wander over to us within 40 yards to see what all the racket was. Not very scared at all about the gunfire.

-DallanC


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## muddydogs

I would say how much powder is being burned depends on the rifle. Both my muzzy's have no problem burning 120 grains, they group better at 110 grains so that's what I shoot. When working up a load I like to shot it in the winter with snow on the ground so I can tell if i'm wasting powder or not.


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## 270win

Tried 777 for the first time this year 110 grains outta my TC Blackdiamond and will never use pyrodex again seems to burn cleaner and does not smell as nasty when cleaning it,as it does with pyrodex.


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## High Desert Elk

I'm up in the air right now on BH, haven't used it as much to finish a drop at 150 yds yet, but seems to do well out to 100. 

Have never tried Pyro or 777. Have tried the IMR Whitehots and wasn't too impressed...

Also used American FFF years back, so I need to compare it to BH I guess.


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## nocturnalenemy

DallanC said:


> 2). BH209 does not come close to burning all its powder, even at only a 90gr charge. I shot over a chronograph and unburned powder granules actually broke though the plastic face of my crony. Looked like it was hit with a shotgun. I actually have a protective guard for the crony, just forgot to throw it in my gear bag.
> 
> So IMO, people shooting 150 or 200gr of BH209 are wasting alot of that, its just not burning completely.
> 
> But... on the pro side, it is easier to clean up than pyro... fwiw
> 
> -DallanC


Curious as to which primers you're using. Blackhorn recommends magnum primers and state that muzzleloading 209s are not adequate. http://www.blackhorn209.com/faqs/

"We have experienced the best performance, consistency and accuracy with CCI 209M and Federal 209A. NOTE: DO NOT use 209 muzzleloading primers such as Winchester Triple 7, Remington Kleenbore, Federal Fusion, or CCI In-Line MZL."

"We do not recommend any of the 209 primers designated for muzzleloaders (Winchester Triple 7, CCI MZL, Federal Fusion, or Remington Kleanbore). These primers are all weaker than standard shotshell 209 primers and do not provide adequate ignition for Blackhorn 209 - especially when used in a poorly designed breech plug system."


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## DallanC

nocturnalenemy said:


> Curious as to which primers you're using. Blackhorn recommends magnum primers and state that muzzleloading 209s are not adequate. http://www.blackhorn209.com/faqs/
> 
> "We have experienced the best performance, consistency and accuracy with CCI 209M and Federal 209A.


I used CCI 209M's.

-DallanC


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## moabxjeeper

DallanC said:


> I used CCI 209M's.
> 
> -DallanC


That magical "M", or rather lack thereof, cost me a deer last year. I picked up some of the regular CCI 209 primers before I realized BH209 recommends the Magnum ones. I tried them at the range and they all fired instantly, so I wasn't that worried. But that was also during hot August and early September last year when I was experimenting with loads.

Fast forward to the hunt, it got COLD, as I'm sure a lot of you remember. We were hunting in snow the first few days. I finally came across a 2 point and apparently the regular primers weren't up to the task. It ignited, but I could tell just from the recoil that it didn't have the same power as when I was at the range. The deer hunched his back and took off but we scoured the area and I didn't find a speck of blood anywhere. I had reloaded my gun prior to searching for the deer and when I realized I hadn't hit it, decided to shoot it out since that was my last morning I was able to hunt. It took 4 or 5 primers that time, and all I got was a little spark followed by a little explosion. I wouldn't be surprised if the bullet came tumbling out of the barrel.


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## caddis8

I'm no dedicated muzz shooter. I've killed several deer with them over the years and have had a lot of fun. The Muzz hunt out here in Nebraska is the month of December- a great time except pheasants and ducks and geese also need attention. 

I shot 777 and pyrodex pellets with powerbelts for a while out of my CVA Wolf and it was actually pretty accurate. I then upgraded guns to a Vortek and that load did not work. I tried several bullets and powder combinations. I ended up settling on BH 110 grains. That was the ticket. My accuracy came in line with that combination for that gun. I clean every 10 shots or so and then foul the barrel before shooting. I killed two antelope with that load- most recently this weekend with my boys. 

It was a quick hunt because I had to travel to Florida for work the next couple of days after that, so I decided to shoot an ok buck instead of being picky and holding out for something bigger. There was a really cool one that looked like he grew horns with a table on its head- the horns were straight out and flat. It had a lot of character. This one is just ok. I had a good friend who hadn't hunted in 10 years and both my sons with me, so the memory is worth it. The meat is wonderful when you shoot them out of a stubble field!


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## 2blade

My Cva mtn rifle shoots an almost 5 shots touching group at 100 yards with 90grs BH 209, 250gr bullets, in a Harvester black crushed rib sabot all day long. The wifes TC Impact shoots the same set up and produces 1" groups. We both use Federal 209A primers. Clean up is easy with Hoppes #9. I like the stuff.


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## Gledeasy

This is my fourth year hunting using BH209. The first 2 years I didn't really notice multiple shots being affected, but the last two years is a different story.

I just went out today and here are the results. First shot clean bore, second shot I noticed it took a little more mustard to seat the bullet and the shot was way off the mark. Looked at barrel and it was pretty dirty, so I cleaned it and the third shot was touching the first. 

Not sure why I'm noticing this now after two years. I do try and keep good care of all of my gear.


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## Fowlmouth

I have never shot anything other than Pyrodex. I bought several bottles of the RS stuff eighteen years ago for $5 each. It's always worked well, but it is dirty and a PIA to clean.


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## bowgy

With my new CVA V2 LR I have been trying everything to come up with a load that it liked and I liked, Last week I did. Firestar Triple 7 pellets were accurate and consistent. Pushing a 250 grain Hornady XTP .45 cal pistol bullet. 1 inch groups at 100 and 2 inch groups at 200. The pellets are expensive but I am happy with the results.

Oh yeah, it is the cleanest burning too.

I have tried, 777 powder, Buckhorn 209, and pyrodex and many types of bullets.


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## 4pointmuley

I have a T/C Triumph as well. The Pyrodex shoots well, but it is extremely dirty after 3-4 shots. I swiched to the White Hots powder. Not as dirty and you don’t get the sulfur smell.


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## torowy

I will continue to sing it's praises. I love bh209. It burns so much cleaner in my TC. Also, my groups were way tighter.


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## shaner

Not only did BH tighten my pattern with 300 grain SST's, I LOVED seeing my buck hit the dirt due to zero smoke.


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## DallanC

Zero? I dont know what powder you are shooting but BH209 certainly has a smoke cloud.




-DallanC


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## Critter

I remember the first buck that I shot with some good old black powder out of a .45 caliber Hawken rifle that I built from a kit. I swore that it took a half hour for the smoke to dissipate to where I could see what was going on. After that I learned that after I pulled the trigger on that rifle to take a few steps one way or another to get out of the smoke cloud. 

But I do agree that BH does leave a smoke cloud but not quite as much as some of the others do.


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## shaner

Ok, zero is maybe a slight exaggeration but I have been shooting FFg,White Hots, Pyrodex,Triple 7, and now BH with the M primers out of my Encore.
I have been using a Leupold 1x4 scope on my Rem700 'fixed' in 1 power before I moved the Leupold to my Encore.
I have not shot as many big bucks as you guys but I have shot bucks,does, a few cows, and a Dutton bull and the only animal I saw take the hit was with BH.
In fact, I dare wager we would have much fewer lost animals if guys could watch the impact instead of waiting for the smoke to clear.


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## DallanC

shaner said:


> Ok, zero is maybe a slight exaggeration but I have been shooting FFg,White Hots, Pyrodex,Triple 7, and now BH with the M primers out of my Encore.
> I have been using a Leupold 1x4 scope on my Rem700 'fixed' in 1 power before I moved the Leupold to my Encore.


Ooooooo the Rem700ML ? Or the Ultimate? We shoot the 700MLs, I love that gun. I just did the badger ridge conversion to the bolt before last years hunt, its a dream to clean now.



> I have not shot as many big bucks as you guys but I have shot bucks,does, a few cows, and a Dutton bull and the only animal I saw take the hit was with BH.
> In fact, I dare wager we would have much fewer lost animals if guys could watch the impact instead of waiting for the smoke to clear.


Huh I never watch for impacts, my guns rock too hard usually to follow impacts. I like to think I know where its going to hit at the pull of the trigger (otherwise why are you pulling the trigger?), and after am usually working the bolt (rifle) or prepping to reload (ML) for any needed followup shot.

Maybe I'm wierd but I actually like the smoke aspect. Reminds me of the puesdo-"primitive" aspect of the hunt and the days of old.

-DallanC


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## shaner

I love watching the impacts!
You should never take your eye off the animal the first few seconds of the shot. If he/she does not drop immediately, those movements of the animal are critical clues.

Remington 700. (You should remember me, I'm the one with a as-new 700 in a box under my bed).
They are fantastic guns.


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## DallanC

shaner said:


> I love watching the impacts!
> You should never take your eye off the animal the first few seconds of the shot. If he/she does not drop immediately, those movements of the animal are critical clues.


Ah, gotcha. I should have clarified: I do watch the animal, just not through the scope. I misunderstood. I've rarely had to "step around" the smoke... the last time I had to however, was when I killed the bull in my avatar. I was looking directly east into the rising sun at the shot, and with the narrow shooting lane it was hard to see through it smoke. It made my heart increase 100x though trying to glimpse through it. I was ecstatic to see him thrashing on the ground in his death throes.



> Remington 700. (You should remember me, I'm the one with a as-new 700 in a box under my bed).
> They are fantastic guns.


Oh yea, I believe I remember talking about it. You really need to get this kit and upgrade it, you will love it 10x as much:

https://www.badgerridgeind.com/store/p10/700ML_KIT.html

Kindof surprising Remington didnt just make this bolt design from the getgo. Zero blowback once installed. Nothing to clean from the breech plug backwards!

-DallanC


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## shaner

I've been meaning to follow your advice and make the conversion but I've always kept that gun in hope of going to Idaho for a bull elk. It's been many years but I believe Idaho still requires a #11 percussion cap to be used?


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## DallanC

shaner said:


> I've been meaning to follow your advice and make the conversion but I've always kept that gun in hope of going to Idaho for a bull elk. It's been many years but I believe Idaho still requires a #11 percussion cap to be used?


I just looked, and the most recent information is from 2012 and does exclude 209 primers. Which is stupid because the smarter sidelock crowd up there has been using pistol primers for years over #11's.

They make Hawkin style sidelock #11 nipple replacements that hold 209's, mag pistol primers etc... so IDK why Idaho would not call out pistol primers along with 209s. I've seen some 209 adapters that hold a pistol or rifle primer... would that be considered illegal? Its not a 209 primer... just a 209 adapter with a pistol primer.

Whatcha think, is this a legally a 209? Or just a rifle primer in an adapter?

https://www.muzzleloadingbullets.com/TC-Large-Rifle-VariFlame-Primer-Adapters-10-pack-p/t-c-0601.htm

-DallanC


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## shaner

I say legal because you have definitely excluded the use of a 209 primer.


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