# 2019 big game permit recommendents



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

They are out in the RAC packet.
Im just going through them now.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here is the link:
https://wildlife.utah.gov/meeting-agendas.html


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Cranking up the wasatch elk tags again.


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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

Well I got F’d in the A again! 1 random ass tag for a mtn goat hunt in 2019. Why even have the hunt at all!?! What a waste of $10 on the app and another year of waiting. FML


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I can understand the frustration. 

It has yet to make sense to me why we set tag numbers AFTER the draw entry period. In this digital age, they could set tags in March/April and still have plenty of application period available before late May.


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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

Looks like they are gonna hammer the antlerless animals and bison again this year! At least I’ve got piles of points for the skin heads. Praying for 4 for 4


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Hunts that I will be watching, as I think they might have good draw odds:

- Archery Nebo goat hunt: 10 tags
- Book Cliffs cow bison hunts: 25 tags each
- Henry Mountains archery cow bison hunt: 13 tags

Other items of note:

- A lot more doe deer tags, mostly on East Canyon/Chalk Creek
- More buck pronghorn tags
- 33 tags for the cactus buck hunt this year, compared to 14 last year
- More sheep tags for both desert and Rocky. Biggest jump I saw was 12 tags on the Kaiparowits, West desert sheep tag (as compared to 6 last year). Should have applied for that one...
- It looks like they took two rifle tags from the Zion desert sheep hunt and turned it into 3 archery tags. I'm curious to see how those hunters do.
- Sharp decrease in permits on the Willard Peak goat hunts. Increases on many other units.
- More bison tags on the Book Cliffs


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

KineKilla said:


> I can understand the frustration.
> 
> It has yet to make sense to me why we set tag numbers AFTER the draw entry period. In this digital age, they could set tags in March/April and still have plenty of application period available before late May.


This is such a source of frustration to me. The Book Cliffs hunters choice bison hunt had 25 tags last year. This year's guidebook mentioned the two new later hunts, but you have no idea what the numbers will be.

Well, 25 tags on that early hunt got reduced to 10. The two new hunts are recommended to get 16 each. Good for whomever put in for the new hunts. Bad for me...

So stupid we don't get recommendations first. So, so stupid.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I do believe we guessed right this year.
The increase in buck Antelope permits should be enough that both kids and I should draw LE.
Looks like deer permits aswell for all 3 of us..........!

Gambling on reservations at the Aquarius Ranger Station looks like a BIG payoff this year!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm surprised they're giving out 3 stansbury sheep tags. I've heard from a source that another die off is happening. Maybe that's why there's 3 tags.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Looks like deer permits aswell for all 3 of us..........!
> 
> Gambling on reservations at the Aquarius Ranger Station looks like a BIG payoff this year!


I am assuming either you did not put in for deer tags on the Boulder unit or that you have some points to burn because the recommendation is to lower the Boulder deer tags (which I think is good based on the anecdotal trends I am seeing.).


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Got deer points...^^^^^^^^^^
Boulder anyweapon for the youngest..( all 3 hunts )
Boulder archery for me..
Manti rifle for the older boy.

Even with the reductions,
Looks like guaranteed permits.
Perfect year to draw, no crowd!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

First, for everyone wondering why numbers come out AFTER the draw - $$$. Some people sit and say well the survey the surveys... No, they can be done or push the application period a little. I genuinely believe it's by design, but every assumption starts with an... well ya know. Now, a few jumbled thoughts as I go through it... 


The cactus buck numbers are interesting - we just had a thread on how difficult that was. I guess that's a "buyer-beware" unit. For every 1 freak, there are what 50-100 dinks?


The handgun-archery-ml language is interesting. Looks like more weird limited hunts are coming - more random re-allocation of tags.

Lots of language on Big Horn/Domestic grazing. Maybe they are getting tired of spending a bunch of money to keep reintroducing herds into the same areas....


Massive reduction in MGMT buck hunts on the two premiums, but no increase in regular tags. You telling me the populations are struggling? Or the exclusivity is? They could easily increase regular permit numbers... As someone who was on the Henry's and got to see swarms of MGMT hunters roll in during the regular hunt, they should stagger the dates if they kept it that way. However, they are mostly killing young trophy's, not true management. The system they had on the pauns where guides would help you kill true management deer was the way to go. So if that's the case, just up the regular tag numbers a bit. Takes 20+ points to draw anyways (and climbing).


WOW - they really pumped up the wasatch elk numbers across the board!


Wonder why they moved a bunch of Dutton tags from late to archery/ML? Anyone have feedback there? I love primitive weapons, that one just had some drastic movement % wise...


So.. they literally keep taking goats off of Willard and starting new herds, and say it's way overpopulated, then just completely SCREW the tag numbers??? 36 down to 15? Curious to hear the "why".


Bull moose age objectives seem to be helping all of those applicants. 13 more tags- 15% of previous tag numbers.


Holy Antlerless tags! Gonna be a freaking madhouse on those hunts! 500 private land tags on east canyon. It's not like it's a huge area- pays big time to have land there if you want some meat.


CWMU may only offer management buck tags if it's within a management unit - was that always the case?


I didn't read a lot of the language changes other than immediate family now including in-laws, and the "Failure to comply" clause for permit/conservation tag groups. 



Anyways - lots of random stuff. Good luck to everyone this year!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> The handgun-archery-ml language is interesting. Looks like more weird limited hunts are coming - more random re-allocation of tags.


Yep, noticed this as well and it always worries me. Better get my pistol ready for some hunts so I can be part of a new specialty group that rapes tags from the majority of rifle hunters.



RandomElk16 said:


> Wonder why they moved a bunch of Dutton tags from late to archery/ML? Anyone have feedback there? I love primitive weapons, that one just had some drastic movement % wise...


Three letters: SFW. Go back and watch the Wildlife Board meeting where they complained that too many of their big bulls were getting killed on the late Dutton hunt. It's all documented. It's sad that we just keep catering to that group who has no interest in working for the public on these specific issues. We couldn't have regular state hunters killing all "their" big bulls on state draw tags now, could we? That would be morally wrong!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Three letters: SFW. Go back and watch the Wildlife Board meeting where they complained that too many of their big bulls were getting killed on the late Dutton hunt. It's all documented. It's sad that we just keep catering to that group who has no interest in working for the public on these specific issues. We couldn't have regular state hunters killing all "their" big bulls on state draw tags now, could we? That would be morally wrong!


I do remember watching that! It's all about the trophies.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

ridgetop said:


> I'm surprised they're giving out 3 stansbury sheep tags. I've heard from a source that another die off is happening. Maybe that's why there's 3 tags.


I really hope that isn't the case, but if it is that might be why there's that proposed language about removing bighorns in areas with domestic sheep? That possibly gives the DWR more flexibility to issue depredation sheep tags on the fly if a die off is starting to maximize hunter participation.

As for the Willard goat tag numbers, I would wager they plan to take even more goats off the mountain for transplanting efforts this year. Yeah in the short term that sucks, but in the long run that really pays off as Utah is having a lot of success lately with establishing and growing new mountain goat herds.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If you could time that Willard goat hunt right you could be hunting at a peak of the population instead of the year after they did a transplant. 

The same can be said on the Parker Mountain pronghorn hunt. Pick the wrong year and you might have problems finding animals.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

After reviewing the permit number recommendations a few things that stuck out to me were- 
1) 30 more hunters than last year will get to hunt OIL sheep. Awesome news for those applying for and dreaming of someday getting to hunt a sheep.
2) Every moose unit is recommended to have tag numbers stay the same or increase. Again great news for those in the moose pool. Good to see moose populations stable or increasing.
3) Steep cut in Henry Mtn. management deer tags due to decreasing buck/doe ratio. Surprised me to see the henrys have a lower b/d ratio than the paunsaugunt.
4) Big shuffle in Mt. Dutton elk tags. Reducing rifle tags and moving them to archery and muzzleloader. If the shuffle was necessary to resolve overcrowding complaints on the rifle hunts or to reduce success rates in order to increase permit numbers I would fully support it but that is not the case. Vanilla is 100% correct in that this shuffle is in response to SFW pushing for and wanting to eliminate the late hunt on this unit due to "to many big bulls from surrounding units getting killed" when they move over to winter on Dutton. SFW believes the average hunter should not be able to hunt those big bulls. I would love to know what percentage of SFW members actually support their push to eliminate that late hunt. I'd be willing to bet they never asked their members if they supported the idea or not and that most have no idea the organization that is supposed to be representing them is actually trying to take away an opportunity for them to hunt.


I see that the amendment to allow for handgun, archery, muzzy hunts has ruffled some feathers on the forum. I think its a bit of a stretch, Vanilla, to say these hunts will be used to rape tags away from the "rifle" hunters. Arizona has had these hunts for years for bear, elk and javelina, they refer to them as HAM hunts. It is a great management tool for the fish and game to use in urban areas or mtn communities with lots of scattered cabins. These areas cannot be rifle hunted due to obvious safety concerns. Having HAM hunts allows for those areas to still be managed and allow for hunting opportunities that would not be available if rifle hunting was the only weapon available to use. 
If you look at many of the antlerless deer hunts in utah they are archery only or archery, muzzy, shotgun only hunts. That is due to concerns about rifles being used in those areas. I believe this proposed amendment to have HAM hunts is to address those type of places and situations. I do NOT buy into the idea of the poor rifle hunters are being picked on and having tags raped away from them.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

huntinfanatic said:


> After reviewing the permit number recommendations a few things that stuck out to me were-
> 1) 30 more hunters than last year will get to hunt OIL sheep. Awesome news for those applying for and dreaming of someday getting to hunt a sheep.
> 2) Every moose unit is recommended to have tag numbers stay the same or increase. Again great news for those in the moose pool. Good to see moose populations stable or increasing.


I'm not wanting to put a damper on the good news of increasing OIAL tag numbers, but I believe the sheep and moose tag increases are primarily due to changes in the management plans that lowered the average age objectives for harvest. The moose population has improved a bit since it dived ~15 years ago, but I don't think sheep populations have improved measurably (I would love to be wrong on that though).


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

More tags= more hunters through the OIL system. 

It will be a wait and see how the hunts go.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Johnny, Yes sheep tag increases are due to changes in the new management plan and according to the moose population & antlerless permit recs page in the packet moose populations are trending stable or increasing in 2019. Both great news IMO.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Lowering the Manti antlerless elk tags again. In a huge unit that has 11,300 elk why do they feel they need to cut it down to 30 tags?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Well, 25 tags on that early hunt got reduced to 10. The two new hunts are recommended to get 16 each. Good for whomever put in for the new hunts. Bad for me...


If it makes you feel any better, my dad and I looked at all the Book Cliffs bison hunts and decided that the early bull hunt (the one with 10 recommended tags) was not the hunt for us. We just don't have a desire to hunt one when it's so hot. I doubt we're the only ones... maybe that hunt will still have better odds than the others?

(He ended up trying for the early cow hunt - here's hoping the pool jumpers don't go too crazy.)

Regardless, the frustration is real. I probably would have applied for the Kaiparowits, West sheep unit if I knew they were going to offer TWELVE tags on the unit this year. But then again, so would everyone else.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> Lowering the Manti antlerless elk tags again. In a huge unit that has 11,300 elk why do they feel they need to cut it down to 30 tags?


Because it was just hammered with EXTRA LE and depredation permits.
They shot cows til Jan 31st.

Lived on the unit for 42 years.
Lowest elk numbers right now I've seen since I was a kid.
Thats why.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Clarq said:


> Regardless, the frustration is real. I probably would have applied for the Kaiparowits, West sheep unit if I knew they were going to offer TWELVE tags on the unit this year. But then again, so would everyone else.


Absolutely frustrating. I would have applied for Kaiparowits, West as well.

This really needs to change, just keep the draw open until the end of March. That'll still give them two months to run the draw.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Be careful what you wish for.
When hunters used to know the numbers before the draw,
Those units that looked easyer (higher permit numbers) got plowed with applications.

And that was 25 years ago!
Can't imagine how bad it would be these days.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Lived on the unit for 42 years.
> Lowest elk numbers right now I've seen since I was a kid.
> Thats why.


Interesting, goof. This has definitely not been my observation the last few years as the elk seem aplenty, and I know of many others hunting the unit each year that haven't seen that either. I'd like to hear more about this.

Maybe we can have 400 "Manti elk herd" threads like the good old days of the Satch?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

TS. No Bs, here is what just happened.

Fires o n Nebo and Manti.
The added extra LE and depredation permits.
500 regular LE cow permits on the north half of Manti , then added a few hundered more that could be hunted til Jan 31st.

Nebo side.
300 regular LE draw cow permits.
Plus 300 private land cow permits,
The dates on those were also extenteded until the end of January!

PLUS, depredation permits issued for spikes and big bulls on private land.

Massive, Wasatch type slaughter.
Its sucks!


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I do believe the elk on the Manti is the lowest number wise in probably 20 years. They issue a lot a tags on the carbon and emery side, as well as depredation tags. Between myself and brothers we basically spend every day on that unit from June till late Nov. It is under objective if I remember right. The private tags are where a lot of the tags are going as well.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I haven’t been hunting the Manti for as long as many of you but have been since about 2013 or so.

I’ve never seen as many elk as I did last season. There were groups of all sizes just about everywhere. Had a spike tag and didn’t tag out.

Bought a landowner permit on the northern end of the unit that kept me down there until late in the winter. The snow didn’t get deep enough to push them into my allowed area before my hunt dates ran out. Still, saw plenty of elk.

The lack of permits is creating a large backlog of applicants.

Maybe the areas I hunt are special and have been unaffected by the “slaughter” that’s been mentioned?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

KineKilla said:


> I haven't been hunting the Manti for as long as many of you but have been since about 2013 or so.
> 
> Bought a landowner permit on the northern end of the unit that kept me down there until late in the winter. The snow didn't get deep enough to push them into my allowed area before my hunt dates ran out. Still, saw plenty of elk


What? Snow didn't get deep enough?

Were where you hunting?
Mid December pretty much everything was low it was so deep.

And hunt dates?
What permit did you have?
Most of them ran through the end of January.
So many elk shot from Christmas til the close, I couldnt keep count.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

One more you thing you should know.
They put planes up quite a few times in February doing counts on Manti and Nebo.
Their counts were very low.
Despite flying several days.
Thats the main reason for lowering the permits.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Managing based off age objective is one of the stupidest ideas ever🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

goofy elk said:


> One more you thing you should know.
> They put planes up quite a few times in February doing counts on Manti and Nebo.
> Their counts were very low.
> Despite flying several days.
> Thats the main reason for lowering the permits.


Goofy I'm in no way trying to dispute numbers are lower than they should have been, and I have zero knowledge on the manti in 2018, but I do know towards the end of December there were plenty of elk to be found on the Nebo. I was hunting with family that had several tags and I saw a lot of cows. What I did see a shortage of were bulls, but the cows were plentiful everywhere I looked. More than I have seen in recent years


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Assassin,
The areas I know they flew Nebo were along hwy 89.
Big Hollow, Indianola, Lassons draw, Nebo and Bennie creek.
North to Covered Bridge 
Those were the lower count areas.
Were did you see the elk?

And haz,
I agree, aged base objetives are not working as well as once thought.
Mabey bull to cow ratios would be better.


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## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

goofy elk said:


> Assassin,
> The areas I know they flew Nebo were along hwy 89.
> Big Hollow, Indianola, Lassons draw, Nebo and Bennie creek.
> North to Covered Bridge
> ...


South west side of nephi canyon and all along the west face to hwy 6. There was a mega wad of cow elk on dry mountain above santaquin, below the tower above elk ridge and above the golf course in Spanish is where the bigger herds were. Lots of little groups spread out in between.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> What? Snow didn't get deep enough?
> 
> Were where you hunting?
> Mid December pretty much everything was low it was so deep.
> ...


I had a landowner permit in Indianola. The permit allowed for a 1 mile buffer from the property line.

The elk stayed about 900-1,000 yds outside of the property line up until our tags expired. Each time we went down there, we'd drive to the 1 mile line and were able to glass them all standing around looking delicious. Just out of legal range.

We probably could have gone and got one and got it back to the truck before a CO showed up. But that's not how we roll.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Assassin,
Thats makes sense.
I did see the herd above the GC.

None the less, their fly counts have Nebo under objective.
They are cutting PL permits to 100.
Lowering LE cow permits significantly aswell.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well killa,
I liv in Indianola.
Those elk never come down on to Rigby's ground in the winter.
Dosnt matter how much snow hits the ground.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here is another problem I have with these recommendations.
Im finding, and hearing of winter killed deer rampant on Nebo and Manti.
Yet the recommended permit numbers are unchanged from last year.

I believe they should be reduced.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

How bad was the winter kill? Hear anything about the kill rates down around Salina?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Well killa,
> I liv in Indianola.
> Those elk never come down on to Rigby's ground in the winter.
> Dosnt matter how much snow hits the ground.


I thought you lived in Birdseye. Pines Ranch?

-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ray
Dosnt look as bad on the Southern end of the Manti.

Dallan
Family sold that place 5 years ago.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Dallan
> Family sold that place 5 years ago.


Odd pointless fact... I almost grew up there in that very house. My dads good friend wanted to sell it to him in the mid 60's and he nearly bought that place.

Life is funny at times...

-DallanC


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> Well killa,
> I liv in Indianola.
> Those elk never come down on to Rigby's ground in the winter.
> Dosnt matter how much snow hits the ground.


Now you tell me.....

It was nice to spend time in the winter hunting Elk, regardless of the outcome.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Wow, Dallan
Clyde Connelly by chance?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Wow, Dallan
> Clyde Connelly by chance?


I'm pretty sure that's him. That name is awfully familiar. I'll ask my dad to make sure next time I see him.

-DallanC


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