# What IF Taxidermist Loses Mount



## jungle (May 10, 2008)

Have any of you ever had a taxidermist lose your mount? With the cost of a hunt; and especially a limited tag, I would hate to have a taxidermist offer only my deposit back or something pathetic like that if he lost the mount. 

I mean, in an extreme case, a mount could be worth only $500.00 to $1500.00 depending on the work done; but the license and hunt could have been $20,000.00 or more. 

Anyone have a taxidermist lose your mount?


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

Interesting you mention this Jungle. I happen to be a taxidermist. I've never lost someone's mount before. I've been slow enough that some guys might have wondered though. Sorry about that guys/gals  

That's not the reason I commented though. You mentioned the worth of a mount. This is always the gripe of taxidermists because guys will pull into the driveway in a truck worth $30-$50k, often times pulling a trailer, or atv's worth $$$$$ They just went on a hunt that cost $$$$$$ they spend $$$$$ while they are on that hunt. And THEN they whine and cry about the taxidermy fees.

I know this isn't the case for everyone out there. But there sure are plenty that do it this way. There are also plenty of people who killed this animal for two reasons only. #1 for the hunt experience, and #2 for the taxidermy mount. They never intended to use the meat. And then they act like getting it mounted is just going to break the bank as an un forseen cost.

So if that mount is really worth more than just the deposit paid for it then why are people so tight when it comes to getting good taxidermy work done????? 

Just wondering.............:lol:


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Truelife said:


> So if that mount is really worth more than just the deposit paid for it then why are people so tight when it comes to getting good taxidermy work done?????
> 
> Just wondering.............:lol:


Simple. Some of the wealthiest people I know are also some of the tightest people I know. The reason they have money is because they are tight wads. I hope that when they die they take it with them *(u)*

So.... what happens if a txidermist does lose that trophy that cost you X amount to harvest?


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

That is sure the truth Mad, My wife has a great aunt that is VERY wealthy. She seems to think she's going to take it with her when she goes. My father in law says he's going to write a check and put it in the coffin with her :lol: 

To answer the question. I would say it depends a little on the taxidermist and the kind of guy he is. Some would pay the money to replace the lost hide or skin if possible. Antlers or horns are basically un-replacable (oh, this reminds me of a story). Some would just give your deposit back and tell you so sorry. Some would tell you that your deposit covered the work that had already been done and that you were out of luck.

It would kind of be a case by case basis with a lot of variables. The kind of guy the customer was could play a big part as well. I could tell you the names of a taxidermist or two that would know because they have been in this spot before, but I won't do that. 

Another case would be where a skin/hide was prepped and delivered to a tannery to be tanned. Sometimes everything can be done up to that point and then it slips (hair falls out) at the tannery. This is one of the risks of the taxidermy industry and one of the basic taxidermy disclaimers is that all tanning is done at the owners own risk. This has to be the case because there is no way we can control the health of the animal before it died, or how it was treated before it reaches our hands. I've had animals that I shot myself, had skinned, prepped and salted within an hour, and then had them slip during tanning. It really left me scratching my head, but that's just how it is sometimes.

The story I remembered was a case where I did loose something. I said before hand that I hadn't, but I guess I had this blocked from my mind. I used to do european mounts as well. We got so busy that I subed some out to another place that cleans skulls. For some reason my skulls ended up in a bag that got chucked in a dumpster and were gone. There was nothing that I could do but call my customers and trhy to explain. It really sucked. I could purchase bear skulls to replace them, and could have done that without letting customers know. In the end I finished their mounts and they just didn't get their skulls. Of course they didn't get charged for them either. Like I said, it sucked.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

Truelife said:


> .......
> The story I remembered was a case where I did loose something. I said before hand that I hadn't, but I guess I had this blocked from my mind. I used to do european mounts as well. We got so busy that I subed some out to another place that cleans skulls. For some reason my skulls ended up in a bag that got chucked in a dumpster and were gone. There was nothing that I could do but call my customers and trhy to explain. It really sucked. I could purchase bear skulls to replace them, and could have done that without letting customers know. In the end I finished their mounts and they just didn't get their skulls. Of course they didn't get charged for them either. Like I said, it sucked.


Hmmm....yes I can see each case being different. In your case, you got the mounts to your clients less the skulls. Any reasonable person I think would accept that as doing your best, though like you said it sucked.

However, why a person hunts or what they do with the meat, or the value of their truck or how much money they have and want to save on taxidermy or whether or not they are a total a** wipe is absolutely, completely irrelevant in a court of law - and in a business transaction for that matter.

Like Mad said, it cost X dollars to acquire the animal. Now the mount is gone. How much liability does a taxidermist have to replace an animal which cost x dollars to acquire?

So, if I get lucky this year, and draw a Desert Bighorn sheep tag; and take a Boone and Crockett Animal, what is a mount like that worth? What would happen if the horns were stolen from the taxidermist? What would the replacement cost be on something like that?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Insurance pay Actual Cash Value. So if you take 170" mule deer buck to the taxidermist and the shop gets burglarized; you get $80 or so for your antlers and $70 or so for the cape. Kind of like if you fly to Disneyland and buy your kid a Goofy hat. The trip cost $2,000 and the hat cost $45. It gets burned in your house fire and the insurance pays you $45 for the hat.

Not saying it is right or wrong, but that is it from an insurance perspective.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

So I just got 150 for my lost record book rack/curl and cape? I would be p!zz3d as a hunter. As a taxidermist I would just pay out of pocket. I am sure that 150 doesn't even come close to my deductible. Not to mention the rate hike on premiums.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

I think also when you're looking at the value of a mount in relationship with the hunt there is value assigned to the hunt itself. In other words you went on the hunt (the Outfit may or may not guaranty an animal). Even a DIY hunt you may or may not harvest an animal. That being the case it would be hard to say that ram is worth 20,000 when you where not guarantied the animal. You spent the 20,00 reguardless of whether or not you harvested an animal or even if it was a once-in-a-lifetime hunt.

Just my opinion.........


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The value of a mount once it is in the hands of a taxidermist would be what the market for that mount would say. Granted if I go on a outfitted hunt there is no guarantee of a animal, but once that animal in in my hands and I deliver it to a taxidermist then there should be a value to it. Most items that are insured are insured for replacement value or a percentage of it. So if you have a 200 pt mule deer then replacement value should be for a 200 pt mule deer that you could go out and buy on the open market. The problem is finding a insurance policy that would cover it, and I am sure that most taxidermist do not have that type of coverage.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

Huntoholic said:


> I think also when you're looking at the value of a mount in relationship with the hunt there is value assigned to the hunt itself. In other words you went on the hunt (the Outfit may or may not guaranty an animal). Even a DIY hunt you may or may not harvest an animal. That being the case it would be hard to say that ram is worth 20,000 when you where not guarantied the animal. You spent the 20,00 reguardless of whether or not you harvested an animal or even if it was a once-in-a-lifetime hunt.
> 
> Just my opinion.........


Huntoholic, good point, it might be tough to prove value based on mount + hunts costs = replacement costs like in your analogy using Disneyland/Goofy Hat.

If you consider, however, States now have a "menu" of sorts when convicting poachers based on the "trophy" replacement value. Spike Mule Deer may only bring, say a $500.00 fine plus community service, whereas a 200 inch mule deer might get you a $12,000 fine and 30 days in jail. So, from a legal standpoint, I could argue that the State has already set a precedence in establishing replacement costs for a trophy. Once a judge sees that there is a history of established replacement costs for the State, then it would follow that there is a replacement cost for the hunter. In fact, the risk associated with a hunt, aka the chance I take of not harvesting anything, in my mind, would drive the replacement costs up NOT down.

Also, Critter makes a valid point. A record Desert Bighorn shoulder mount might incur, lets just say, an $800.00 bill from the taxidermist, however, to a collector on the open market this mount might be worth thousands of dollars, to round out a grand slam, and maybe up to $100,000.00 by the time a guy rented it out a few times at shows or sold it to Cabelas after renting it out a couple of years.

It would be interesting to see if any of this has ever been tested in court...to see what precedence has been set, if any.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

Huntoholic said:


> I think also when you're looking at the value of a mount in relationship with the hunt there is value assigned to the hunt itself. In other words you went on the hunt (the Outfit may or may not guaranty an animal). Even a DIY hunt you may or may not harvest an animal. That being the case it would be hard to say that ram is worth 20,000 when you where not guarantied the animal. You spent the 20,00 reguardless of whether or not you harvested an animal or even if it was a once-in-a-lifetime hunt.
> 
> Just my opinion.........


Huntoholic, good point, it might be tough to prove value based on mount + hunts costs = replacement costs like in your analogy using Disneyland/Goofy Hat.

If you consider, however, States now have a "menu" of sorts when convicting poachers based on the "trophy" replacement value. Spike Mule Deer may only bring, say a $500.00 fine plus community service, whereas a 200 inch mule deer might get you a $12,000 fine and 30 days in jail. So, from a legal standpoint, I could argue that the State has already set a precedence in establishing replacement costs for a trophy. Once a judge sees that there is a history of established replacement costs for the State, then it would follow that there is a replacement cost for the hunter. In fact, the risk associated with a hunt, aka the chance I take of not harvesting anything, in my mind, would drive the replacement costs up NOT down.

Also, Critter makes a valid point. A record Desert Bighorn shoulder mount might incur, lets just say, an $800.00 bill from the taxidermist, however, to a collector on the open market this mount might be worth thousands of dollars, to round out a grand slam, and maybe up to $100,000.00 by the time a guy rented it out a few times at shows or sold it to Cabelas after renting it out a couple of years.

It would be interesting to see if any of this has ever been tested in court...to see what precedence has been set, if any.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

I forgot to mention the law. That is a whole other ball of wax. Like you said Critter, most taxidermist aren't going to have the kind of insurance that would be needed. And we all know how insurance companies work anyway. I don't know if there would ever be a case where the hunter/customer would get full cash value, and they certainly would never get anything close to sentimental value. 

If B&C sheep, or any mount for that matter were stolen from me the first thing that would happen would be me throwing up. Then I would call the customer and he and I would both throw up some more. -O,- -O,- .

Of course it could all be taken to court to try and recover the full cost of another hunt or something, and as has been said, every case would be different. In the end the animal would not be replaced no matter how much money was won. Maybe another one could be tagged, but..............


Would all of the legal fees, and putting somebody out of business be worth it??? Depends on all of the circumstances I guess.

I think most taxidermists just go way out of their way to make sure that doesn't happen.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

I was just talking with a buddy. He pointed out that if you had a mount that valuable, then you could probably insure it before it was dropped off. I am guessing no taxidermist would ever sign an agreement or contract with a guarantee either, because, well, "_stuff occurs_". :shock:


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I am thinking that we would have to go with state value and from what I have read recently everything has a dollar value associated with it. We all know the courts put a value on peoples lives almost everyday in wrongful death law suits. Why would we not put a value on a lost trophy animal. Either way you will never replace what was lost. Is it really worth putting someone out of business? (or burdening tax payers over an accident). I am just thinking of the unintended cosequences of most of our decisions.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

jungle said:


> If you consider, however, States now have a "menu" of sorts when convicting poachers based on the "trophy" replacement value. Spike Mule Deer may only bring, say a $500.00 fine plus community service, whereas a 200 inch mule deer might get you a $12,000 fine and 30 days in jail. So, from a legal standpoint, I could argue that the State has already set a precedence in establishing replacement costs for a trophy. Once a judge sees that there is a history of established replacement costs for the State, then it would follow that there is a replacement cost for the hunter. In fact, the risk associated with a hunt, aka the chance I take of not harvesting anything, in my mind, would drive the replacement costs up NOT down.
> 
> Also, Critter makes a valid point. A record Desert Bighorn shoulder mount might incur, lets just say, an $800.00 bill from the taxidermist, however, to a collector on the open market this mount might be worth thousands of dollars, to round out a grand slam, and maybe up to $100,000.00 by the time a guy rented it out a few times at shows or sold it to Cabelas after renting it out a couple of years.
> 
> It would be interesting to see if any of this has ever been tested in court...to see what precedence has been set, if any.


I would not think you would get very far on the State value. I say this because the value to the State may very well be different then to an individual. I would agree with the second part as long as the value is not based on the hunt. The value is based on what it would cost on the market. If one Ram on the market was 100,000 and the rest were 5,000 you would have to prove that your animal was of the same quality as the 100,000 animal. And I would think that you would have to do this without the cost of the hunt.

Again just my opinion.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

Huntaholic,

Okay, for arguments sake, lets remove the cost of the hunt. If I understand you correctly, I "bought" a hunt, not an animal. And I bought a license, the right to hunt, but not the animal. And I paid a guide - to guide me on the hunt - but not a kill per se only the opportunity to pursue an animal. Okay I see your point, though, I would like to take this to its logical conclusion.....

May outfits charge a trophy fee attached to the animal, especially Africa. And in that case, there are shipping, prep including skinning and dipping, gratuities and value added taxes. There may be broker expenses involved getting the animal home. And then there is the additional time involved in taking care of all these matters. These are all real costs associated with the trophy itself, not the hunt, that are lost if the trophy is lost for whatever reason. It seems to me these should be covered as well.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

jungle said:


> May outfits charge a trophy fee attached to the animal, especially Africa. And in that case, there are shipping, prep including skinning and dipping, gratuities and value added taxes. There may be broker expenses involved getting the animal home. And then there is the additional time involved in taking care of all these matters. These are all real costs associated with the trophy itself, not the hunt, that are lost if the trophy is lost for whatever reason. It seems to me these should be covered as well.


As you have outlined I think I would agree. These are cost directly related to the mount that you would not have spent but for the animal. I'm afraid though at this point you would be in court to try to recover these costs.

I guess the next question I would have is, what if I paid a $1,000 to have a animal shipped in, but it is only worth $500 on the open market. In others words I could go out any time and buy this animal for $500. I paid the $1,000 because it was special to me. At this point again I think you would be at the mercy of the court.

I think it would be a lot easier to just do your home work and find a taxi you can work with. I would think that a good taxi would make the situation as right as they could, knowing that that very animal is irreplacable to the individual.


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## SkullDesigns (Jul 13, 2010)

I would take your mount to a reputable taxidermist and make sure they know what they are doing before you leave your animal. My wife got a antelope and I tried to get a hold of many taxi's that I knew and couldn't get ahold of any that I knew did good work, so I tried another one that was around where I live, then I found out about the quality of work and the way he treated his customers, I went the next day and picked it up and put it in my freezer til I could get it to a different one. thankfully it didn't slip or she would have killed me, Im glad I got it back because the taxidermist that did it, knew what he was doing and knew where it was at all times. 

Just like with the skulls I do, I have paper trails for everything, everything is labeled and marked with a wire tie, I have never had to search for a customers skull or have never had to wonder where one is. Being organized helps out alot.


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## jungle (May 10, 2008)

Hey Skull,

No question one needs a good taxi. And I think we have differentiated between a mount's intrinsic value (the amount on the invoice from the taxidermist); and the obvious market value of the mount which far exceeds any invoice amount from the taxidermist like elephant tusks just set in a base; or a record book desert bighorn shoulder mount. 

What I have learned from this thread is to perform extensive due diligence, as follows:

>Buy insurance on those exceedingly valuable mounts.
>Take extensive photos; place a hidden identifying mark on the mount. 
>Like Skull said, learn the Taxidermist's QAQC program (tags, labels, wire ties, book keeping etc...).
>Check his professional business insurance and licensing (fire, theft, flood etc...). 
>Ask for any assurances the taxi can provide in writing. 
>...and last but not least, check references. 

But, at the end of the day, I, probably like most of you, am more comfortable with a handshake from someone I know I can trust and who keeps his/her word; and who also has the fiscal resources, capital and desire to mitigate any issues.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

One more suggestion would be to notice how the taxi cares for other peoples things. If he's got capes and horns laying all over the place, or in a big pile that doesn't give me a very good impression.

Also, one thing I always do is if someone brings in a very big elk, deer, etc. I cape the animal and send the antlers home with them. I would much rather they keep the responsability of them until I am ready for them. There is no reason to have them hanging around my shop where other customers, or potential theives can drop in and see them. Of course sometimes customers are out of state and this idea doesn't work, but it will work fine in plenty of cases.

If I ever personally get the chance to kill a 200+ inch mule deer those antlers aren't going to leave my sight very often if they don't have to.


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