# Moose thoughts



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Well, I am now a 50 year old man and starting to think more and more about my moose points.
If memory serves I have been putting in since I was 32 for a total of 18 points.
When I first started applying for points I had dreams of killing a massive bull and just my wife and I packing him out.
A lot has changed in 18 years....
Some of you may know I only have one hand and as I get older it gets tougher and tougher to pack out a deer much less a bull elk.
I also do not have the same desire for a massive set of antlers.
My desire now is for a quality hunt with as many of my family members around as possible( it is only me, my wife, my daughter/sil, my son/dil, and 2 little grandsons under 3) even if they are only in camp to hear the stories at the end of each day.

Which brings me here asking for as many opinions as I can get.
I would now be happy with a tiny bull in any area that would possibly make the retrieve easier on me, possibly even a CWMU that the landowner would keep me informed of where an 'easy bull' might be located?
Anyone care to throw in if this scenario is even possible with 18 points?
Thanks.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Here are the following CWMUs that offered more than one moose tag in 2018 - some of the other units might have a different split every other year between the public tags and the private tags, so you’d need to check the tags offered for 2017 ...

Beaver Hollow CWMU
Deseret CWMU
East Fork Chalk Creek CWMU
Ensign Ranches CWMU
Grass Valley/Clark Canyon CWMU
Skull Crack CWMU
Two Bear CWMU
Weber Florence Creek CWMU
Jacobs Creek CWMU

With 18 points, you wouldn’t be in the bonus tag pool for any of the units listed above.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

It sure does suck to spent over a decade in the moose pool. When I'm 50 I will have 21 points and be in far worse shape than you. I now picture myself at 70 with 41 points and telling my grandkids about how glad I am to have them to drive the old flying saucer into range if I make it to 85. 

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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm currently over 2 decades in the moose pool.


-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well,
Here is the plain ol facts about moose points in Utah.
And they suck.

There are 600 hunters with 18 points.

There are 1,400 with 19 plus...

45 total bonus permits in 2018.

Do the math.
Its ugly for anyone under 20 or so.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Forgot to add in the 500+ that bought points only with 18 plus.

Brings the total to over 2,500
hunters with at least 18 moose points.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

DallanC said:


> I'm currently over 2 decades in the moose pool.
> 
> -DallanC


^^same^^


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Forgot to add in the 500+ that bought points only with 18 plus.
> 
> Brings the total to over 2,500
> hunters with at least 18 moose points.


Hmmm, so when I do the math it should only take about 45 years to clear out the 18 or more moose point holders.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

I just finished helping my old man on his once in a lifetime hunt. I am 30 and have 14 points for moose. I wish I could trade them for Bison..... I will maybe be lucky enough to draw a single once in a lifetime tag in Utah before I am 60


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

50% with 21 points was this year's best resident odds. Looks like you still got a long wait unless your luck changes

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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Dang, I'm worse off than I ever thought.

At least hunting them out of a flying saucer also means you will be using a laser gun, shoot and cook your moose with one shot.

Who wants to trade 18 moose points for 1 le deer point???


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## FULLHOUSE (Oct 1, 2007)

57 years old and 21 points, luckily so far I still have my health. Knock on wood.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

I’m sitting here at 22 points and I am not sure when I will draw. What I know for sure though is that Utah moose is a nightmare you will never wake up from if you don’t have 20+ points and are young enough to ride it out. 

But, every year people with lower points draw...

Good luck to you all!


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

My strategy now is to just put in for the CWMUs that have the best draw odds. Yeah, there's probably a reason they have the draw odds that they do, but even a garbage Utah moose hunt has gotta be better than never hunting moose in Utah at all, right?


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## t_boneking (May 22, 2014)

I drew my moose permit last year with 18 points and got a great bull. I feel extremely lucky to have drawn and now with any luck I can get another once in a life time species in my lifetime. I applied for the East Canyon unit as I analyzed it and it gave me the best chance to draw a non cwmu tag with the points I had. I guess I am saying you have a chance but you will have to get very lucky!


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

colorcountrygunner said:


> My strategy now is to just put in for the CWMUs that have the best draw odds. Yeah, there's probably a reason they have the draw odds that they do, but even a garbage Utah moose hunt has gotta be better than never hunting moose in Utah at all, right?


I will start to apply this strategy in the next 5 years or so. Im not ready to give up on the lottery yet.

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## callofthewild (Sep 7, 2007)

oh man i am so glad right now that i am not involved in this moose pool problem. however i am involved in bison pool with 20 points and looking at the same situation. oh how fun it is wherever you are stuck.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The bison herds are doing quite well, growing! More opportunity to hunt.
Were the moose are not so good.


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## callofthewild (Sep 7, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> The bison herds are doing quite well, growing! More opportunity to hunt.
> Were the moose are not so good.


the whole point i was trying to make is that no matter what pool you are in. your oil hunt will probably be the only one you will have a chance at doing period. some might not get that chance at all. i know that there most likely will not be a chance for me to chase a big horn sheep in Utah once i draw a bison tag. the whole thing is frustrating. but we all know what we are doing every February.


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## Cheater (Feb 8, 2012)

What do you guys think about converting species specific OIL points to "general" OIL points? Meaning that your 18 moose points could be used for another species if desired.

I haven't thought through this completely, but I think it could be good.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Cheater said:


> What do you guys think about converting species specific OIL points to "general" OIL points? Meaning that your 18 moose points could be used for another species if desired.
> 
> I haven't thought through this completely, but I think it could be good.


This idea was in the RACs a few years ago. A study was done.
It was not passed.

It would be very unfair to the goat and bison guys.
Their point pool woud be flooded!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The way that I look at the point situation is that you made a decision to go with what you went with. Now 20 or so years down the road you find that the decision that you made was not the best one for one reason or another. But now you are stuck with the decision that you made 20 or so years ago. 

I believe that if you open the OIL points to a general type OIL points you will be opening up a can of worms that you don't want to open. How do you feel if someone has 20+ points for sheep and you now come in with 25 points for that same sheep tag? You will not be making very many friends.

It is sad the situation with moose in Utah but the same thing could happen to any of the OIL animals in the state.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Cheater said:


> What do you guys think about converting species specific OIL points to "general" OIL points? Meaning that your 18 moose points could be used for another species if desired.
> 
> I haven't thought through this completely, but I think it could be good.


Not wanting to sound like an a$$ but I will... HE!! NO. I got points for a Mt. Goat I've been building for a very long time and I don't think it's right to let someone from another species pool cut in my line.

We chose to apply for our species and now we have to live with those choices. To me this amounts to a bail out for a poor/wrong/bad decision and bail outs are hand outs; not something I subscribe to.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> I got points for a Mt. Goat I've been building for a very long time and I don't think it's right to let someone from another species pool cut in my line.


If I could, I'd push my 21 points to Mt. Goat in a heart-beat.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

gdog said:


> If I could, I'd push my 21 points to Mt. Goat in a heart-beat.


I would put my points on RM Big Horn. but no matter how you look at it it's not right.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

My oldest turned 12 this year and had a long discussion about how picking le and oil species had long reaching effects to a chance at ever drawing a tag. We had the application guide out looking at the pictures of all the oil and said pick what you like. She pointed to the bull moose nope, sorry pick again only dreamers or suckers will put in with those odds.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

gdog said:


> If I could, I'd push my 21 points to Mt. Goat in a heart-beat.


And you would still have the same wait as you do for Moose... because most of the 22, 23pt moose crowd would jump too. Then you have all the nitwits that jumped between OILs every other year and have a handful of each, but total them all up and they could have max points (I know a few people like this).

Sadly I wish I had been putting in for mt goats all this time... but its too late to change now.

-DallanC


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## Cheater (Feb 8, 2012)

MadHunter said:


> Not wanting to sound like an a$$ but I will... HE!! NO. I got points for a Mt. Goat I've been building for a very long time and I don't think it's right to let someone from another species pool cut in my line.
> 
> We chose to apply for our species and now we have to live with those choices. To me this amounts to a bail out for a poor/wrong/bad decision and bail outs are hand outs; not something I subscribe to.


No worries, there is definitely a very strong argument to keep it as is.


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## utahbigbull (May 9, 2012)

I'm 43 years old with 16 moose points... Just a pipe dream to ever draw. Just glad I started my wife and oldest son out in the goat pool so they may have a chance before I am 6 feet under.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

As many years as it takes to draw, a guy would be better off depositing his application fees into an interest-bearing account. After 20 years, you'll have enough for a multi-species hunt in Alaska. Or Idaho. Or Montana. Or Canada.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Cheater said:


> What do you guys think about converting species specific OIL points to "general" OIL points? Meaning that your 18 moose points could be used for another species if desired.
> 
> I haven't thought through this completely, but I think it could be good.


I only agree with this if a portion of your points was taken away to make the transaction, say 50%?
I doubt anyone would have a problem with this?
For my education, I will be the first Guinea pig:
Would anyone care if the DWR converted my 18 moose points in to 9 LE deer?
If we want to beat point creep, some crazy 'think out of the box' method better be created.....


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

shaner said:


> I only agree with this if a portion of your points was taken away to make the transaction, say 50%?
> I doubt anyone would have a problem with this?
> For my education, I will be the first Guinea pig:
> Would anyone care if the DWR converted my 18 moose points in to 9 LE deer?
> If we want to beat point creep, some crazy 'think out of the box' method better be created.....


That is an interesting idea, but I still wouldn't support it. Then again, I'm in the camp that supports complete elimination of bonus points and going to a pure random draw.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> That is an interesting idea, but I still wouldn't support it. Then again, I'm in the camp that supports complete elimination of bonus points and going to a pure random draw.


I am in this camp myself JC! I have stated before that I would support flushing out the top X levels of point holders. Once those were flushed out we would go random draw and give the remaining point holders preference points. Waiting periods would also have to be increased.

I see no other way for our kids and grand kids to have a chance at drawing an LE or OIL tag. The point creep is getting so massive, it's going to collapse under it's own weight a lot sooner than we think.


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## Cheater (Feb 8, 2012)

I would support doing away with points as well. To make it work, there would probably have to be a ~5 year "use them or lose them" phase out period.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> I see no other way for our kids and grand kids to have a chance at drawing an LE or OIL tag. The point creep is getting so massive, it's going to collapse under it's own weight a lot sooner than we think.


Tell'em to put down the game controller, turn off facebook, get off their butts and study hard! Get a good education, get a great paying job... then they can just go buy a stupid moose tag EVERY SINGLE YEAR if they want. There is zero limit to the number of moose tags a person in Utah can have, no waiting times. Just pony up the $$$ and go hunt, every single year.

Life is tough, kids need to learn that.

The argument you are making is like saying "life's not fair that our kids didn't have the opportunity to buy Microsoft stock when it was initially offered at $21 a share, we need to change things!"

-DallanC


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

DallanC said:


> Tell'em to put down the game controller, turn off facebook, get off their butts and study hard! Get a good education, get a great paying job... then they can just go buy a stupid moose tag EVERY SINGLE YEAR if they want. There is zero limit to the number of moose tags a person in Utah can have, no waiting times. Just pony up the $$$ and go hunt, every single year.
> 
> Life is tough, kids need to learn that.
> 
> ...


Why not just go to a straight pay to play for all hunting tags now? Sounds like it's the way of future why wait?

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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

DallenC... I get your point. I agree 90% with you. I also cant help think that we have taken access to a public resource and set it up in a pyramid scheme that prohibits access to it. One could also argue that just because you and I were born sooner we have the "priviledge to the priviledge" of hunting certain speceis. 
It's a tough situation all around.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

johnnycake said:


> Then again, I'm in the camp that supports complete elimination of bonus points and going to a pure random draw.


When one considers that only 45 of 116 tags in the moose pool (38.8%) go to bonus point winners, the moose draw is already somewhat close to being a largely random draw.

I don't envy anyone in the moose pool. A good buddy has 22 points and he's not sure when it will finally work out for him.


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## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

Cheater said:


> What do you guys think about converting species specific OIL points to "general" OIL points? Meaning that your 18 moose points could be used for another species if desired.
> 
> I haven't thought through this completely, but I think it could be good.


Since we are taking from one group to another would these be OIL for the Archery? Please don't give the bowhunters another bright idea like this...&#8230;.it just might pass


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

weaversamuel76 said:


> Why not just go to a straight pay to play for all hunting tags now? Sounds like it's the way of future why wait?


I know thats in jest, but I've been saying it for years. Do away with the draw entirely, go Dutch Auction and be done with it. You bid what you want, DWR starts with the highest bids and works down to the lowest until the tags are all handed out.

-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> shaner said:
> 
> 
> > That is an interesting idea, but I still wouldn't support it. Then again, I'm in the camp that supports complete elimination of bonus points and going to a pure random draw.
> ...


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

DallanC said:


> The argument you are making is like saying "life's not fair that our kids didn't have the opportunity to buy Microsoft stock when it was initially offered at $21 a share, we need to change things!"
> 
> -DallanC


Apples to oranges.

Big game tags are a public resource, and accordingly, should be distributed to the public in an equitable way. The same can't be said for shares of stock.

Try as I might, I simply can't believe that current system is equitable. Some have argued that it is a fair system, and I can understand where they're coming from, but... fair is one thing, and equitable is another.

Problem is, in order to make the system equitable again, we would probably have to do something unfair to those who have been in it awhile. That's the paradox.

My solution to the problem would be to stop awarding bonus points immediately, and then continue to run the draw as-is. Those who have invested in the system will retain their advantage, but we wouldn't compound the problem by adding more points each year. Give it long enough, and it would revert back to a random draw. I think we could pull that off without encountering serious opposition.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Place a cap on points. Say a max of 25 or 30. This protects those who have been in the game for a long time and allows those coming later to finally get to the same level. 

Everybody waits the same length to become eligible for half the tags and everybody has a chance at the other half.

..


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

This discussion is making me love the system in Idaho more and more. No points. Every year, every applicant has the same odds. You might draw, you might not. But years of putting in doesn't equate to any kind of advantage over the new person joining the party. Years of putting in does not equate to some kind of entitlement, or idea that you are owed anything. Simple. Direct. Fair. Everyone is on equal footing. ESPECIALLY with OIL tags. You only get one, so once you get it, you're out of the game. I remember back in high school, a buddy drew his once in a lifetime moose tag for Island Park. I asked him if he was sad that at age 16, he'd never hunt moose in Idaho again? His response - something I remember 30+ years later - "I get to hunt a freaking moose THIS year? Who cares?"

I'm glad to be out of the entire point system in Utah. I had 12 bull elk points when I left. The system that was supposed to quell the whining only complicated and compounded the problems of a draw, and now has wrapped itself so tightly around the axle as to render the situation an irreconcilable mess.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

When it comes down to it the next system is always better until it gets implemented and then they find that there is problems with it.

Actually what they need to do in Utah is to bulldoze all of Big and Little Cottonwood Canyons, Park City, the whole bench of the Wasatch Front along with a few cities thrown in. Do away with private property rights and allow a person to hunt and fish where ever he or she wants to. Condemn all the property around all the lakes and reseviour's for 10 miles to allow for wildlife and waterfowl. 

There are a few other things that need to be done but if we started with these projects then a person might be able to hunt in Utah again without having to wait for 30 years to draw a tag.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

goofyelk, 50% is still 50%. I will say as much as I think the "right" decision would be to go to pure random draw for OIAL at least, I think Packout's capped points idea is much more achievable.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I'll be the first to say that the point creep is ALL JACKED UP!

But seriously, I dont see a better way.

Caping points at 30?
Im not against that.
I do believe a lot of hunters at that point will be dropping out for health issues or even dieing.

Just too many applications and too few tags.

Go to a 100% random and you may never draw a thing.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> I'll be the first to say that the point creep is ALL JACKED UP!
> 
> But seriously, I dont see a better way.
> 
> ...


Purely random is a better way. I also think Utah should make the applicants pay up front for the most expensive tag they apply for. Isn't Utah the only state that does not require this?

Put your money where your mouth is. Fronting up the cash should eliminate some applications.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

MadHunter said:


> Isn't Utah the only state that does not require this?
> 
> Put your money where your mouth is. Fronting up the cash should eliminate some applications.


Actually states are looking at going to post pay for the tags. They have found that they get more applicants to pay the draw fees plus they don't have to go to the expense of refunds.

Arizona used to be pay up front but changed a number of years ago and Colorado went to post pay last year.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Madhunter,
Utah did require the money up front for many years. Then it was deemed to be against one of Utahs laws.
Money up front will never happpen again.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> I do believe a lot of hunters at that point will be dropping out for health issues or even dieing.


That used to be the case until the retards pushed for Mentor tags. Now 99 year old grandpa will keep putting in by his kids until he dies so that Jr can use the tag.

It used to be you could count on a certain % of attrition from the draw applicants, but not anymore.

I firmly believe tags are way too cheap however. All big game tags should minimally be twice the current price.

-DallanC


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Get all those tags away from the Expo and put them back in the general draw.
That will help draw down point creep a tiny little bit.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Put $10/week into a savings account. Then in 5-10 years, book a Canadian Moose/Black Bear/Deer hunt.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

GaryFish said:


> Put $10/week into a savings account. Then in 5-10 years, book a Canadian Moose/Black Bear/Deer hunt.


You better make that $20-$30 a week for 20 years and you might be close to just a moose and black bear hunt.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> You better make that $20-$30 a week for 20 years and you might be close to just a moose and black bear hunt.


Quick search. 
http://www.bchunter.com/pricing/


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That outfitter looks like the exception to the rule from the ones that I have looked at where the prices for moose alone are close to $10,000 with black bear around $3500 on the low side.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Some quick googling also shows that there appears to be very good reasons for those low prices, buyer beware for sure.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

My point was - If getting a moose is that important, then save for it and pay for a guided hunt where there are enough moose and tags to go around. If it takes 20 years to MAYBE draw a tag, a guy could use that same 20 years and save up for a hunt somewhere else.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

my 17 points seem minimal. one of these days


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

hazmat said:


> my 17 points seem minimal. one of these days


Everyone's points seem minimal. Don't feel bad.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

hazmat said:


> my 17 points seem minimal. one of these days


I have 13 points hazmat. This is certainly not my year. An unlucky low number. Yet I continue to dream.

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## Hunttilidrop (Jun 12, 2018)

13 is a lucky number! Nothing unlucky about 13.😉


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Hunttilidrop said:


> 13 is a lucky number! Nothing unlucky about 13.&#128521;


Ah, reverse psychology. I like it! Haha. Its all we can do at this point.

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