# Elk rifle failure



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

We always have posts about what is the best rifle/caliber for elk and we always get the same old story's about "I killed a huge bull with one shot with my_____________". Trouble is, that doesn't tell us anything. What I want to know is what rifle/caliber failed for you...defined as the elk did NOT drop or he ran a long ways before he dropped or he got away completely? Try to govern yourself and only include incidences where you believe your shot was a fairly good one. Don't include butt or leg shots or other shots that couldn't be called killing shots.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I start off by saying that none of the calibers that I have shot a elk with have failed me. From handgun cartridges such as the .357 magnum to the .44 mag and all my rifle cartridges that I consider elk rounds. If I have shot a elk with it the elk has died and ended up in my freezer.


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## greatwhitehunter (Nov 16, 2007)

I bought a 300 RUM thinking that I just needed to hit the dirt next to the elk and it would die. So yeah........the 300 RUM is junk for this type of killing......maybe I need a 50 BMG?...............

But really, what we trying to prove with this thread? Unless you are using a grenade launcher, you still need to punch an elk in the heart of you want immediate results......lung shots are deadly but sometimes not immediately.

My bull was punched in the lungs, went 50 yards, layed down and took 10 minutes to expire. Is this a "fail" because he did not drop in his tracks?? Did my 200 grain accubond backed by 91.5 grains of retumbo fail me in this situation?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

None.

Also, everyone should post specifics because each selection has a huge variation.

.270, 7 RM, 7-08, 7 WSM, etc etc etc...

I also read a ton of failure threads with dead elk in them. Failure vs Bad Shot vs Expectations vs DRT are all so different.


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## 4pointmuley (Sep 18, 2007)

Me and my brother in law both using a 30.06. Using factory ammo 180 grain Remington Core-Loc bullets. It was in 1989 before spike only in American Fork canyon. We both hit the big bull in the lungs and he dropped. We let him lay for about a 1/2 hour before going to him. When we got there he was gone. Lots of blood and pink foamy tissue. We track blood for over an hour and never found him! Worst day of our lives. Now I reload my own bullets!


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

4pointmuley said:


> Me and my brother in law both using a 30.06. Using factory ammo 180 grain Remington Core-Loc bullets. It was in 1989 before spike only in American Fork canyon. We both hit the big bull in the lungs and he dropped. We let him lay for about a 1/2 hour before going to him. When we got there he was gone. Lots of blood and pink foamy tissue. We track blood for over an hour and never found him! Worst day of our lives. Now I reload my own bullets!


This makes little sense, why would you wait so long to confirm your kill?


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

I have killed elk with a 6mm, 30.06, .270, 7mm, and 300 WSM. None of them have failed me. The only failures have mine, fortunately I have never lost an elk. I have seen a couple of failures due to bullets expoloding without penetrating.


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## woundedjew (Jan 6, 2011)

I have shot 14 elk with my old browning 30/06 using 180g remington and have never had a problem. In fact only 1 of the elk required more than 1 shot. I have since moved on to a .300 Weatherby and still have not had any issues. Doesn't matter what bullet you put into them, a good shot will make them drop in their tracks, and if not in their tracks, its produced enough blood to make the tracking job easy!!!


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## FSHCHSR (Aug 30, 2008)

> This makes little sense, why would you wait so long to confirm your kill


pretty common practice let them lay down and die instead of pushing a wounded animal all overthe mountain


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## lifes short (Sep 11, 2013)

Watched my brother shoot a cow elk at under 100 yds with 30-06 150gr Federal. First shot knocked her down, she got back up, second shot knocked her down, she got back up, third shot knocked her down, she got back up, fourth shot she was dead. When we butchered her I found three bullets in her front shoulder and a fourth hole that went clear through. I consider this a failure, not caliber but bullet. Those first three went to pieces on her front shoulder and did not penetrate. I have used Nosler Partitions on any caliber I have Elk hunted with since and not had a failure. Quality bullets are more important than caliber.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Here again, thanks for your "I kilt a big bull elk with ma..." 
I know, I forgot your 7.33567mm Whirlytail, Ultra Mag Improved Wildcat caliber, but in all reality, a 150gr .30 bullet acts about the same at say 1850 fps no matter what rifle you shoot it out of.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

By the way I just voted for the .223 just so that I could see the poll results. 

I don't know of any ethical hunter that would hunt a animal the size of a elk with one.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Usually it is the shooter and shot placement that is the failure. I am guilty as charged on one count. The rifle that was my accomplice was a 30-06. The only rifle that I feel is very marginal for elk on your list is the .223 I am sure that it can still get the job done, but elk can walk away with a shot to the vitals from a .223 and leave nary a blood trail. Though they may be vitally wounded recovery would be dismal. 

Gonna put myself out for criticism but my gut feeling says that .223 in diameter is not sufficient for elk whether it is by a .223 Remington, 223 Winchester Super Short Magnum, or even the 22-250. Those calibers are just too small for ethical shots in the vitals on elk. They will work just fine and dandy for head shots but the .22LR works fine and dandy for head shots as well. 

243 Winchester is the minimum caliber that would receive my approval for elk hunting. Not that my approval is highly sought after, but if I knew you were chasing elk with a smaller caliber I would think twice about what direction I would pull your truck if I came across you stuck in the mud.


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## ram2h2o (Sep 11, 2007)

Caliber is one issue, however the biggest problem that is not being discussed is shot placement and familiarly with the rifle being shot. Not sighting in the rifle with a specific round and not shooting the rifle before the hunt contributes much to the misses, wounding and lack of harvest for Elk. Additionally, the misconception that any caliber of rifle will shoot and kill an animal the size of an Elk at distances over 300+ yards even if the longest shot taken off a bench is maybe 200 yards.Knowing your rifle and it's limitations is the best solution to a successful Elk hunt.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

I've only taken a handful of elk with a rifle, because I primarily bowhunt for them. But of the 6 I've taken with a rifle I've never had to hit them more than once. 

The first thing I learned as a bowhunter is that shot placement is the most vital piece of the equation. Part of that was that my parents were fine with their 16 year old running around the woods with a secondhand browning bow, but neither the parents nor myself could afford to put a rifle in my hands. 

So at age 19 I took my first rifle elk, with a borrowed .243 (yep, tiny gun) One shot at what I estimate as maybe 125 yards (that was 24 years ago so maybe it was more or less) Anyway, one shot in the boiler room and the elk stumbled, fell, and died shortly thereafter. 

Since then I've taken one with my grandfathers lever action 30-30, my .270, 2 with a 30-06 and one with a 7mm-08. The only time I've had to track an elk far was a bow shot that I messed up, which was recovered late that night. 

I consider myself very lucky, but at the same time, I pass up shots that are less than ideal, and I practice with my rifles regularly, and throughout the year. I also avoid the magnum hard kicking rifles, because regardless of how "tough" you think you are, most guys develop a flinch with the big guns. If you think I'm wrong, I've got a great game for you to play at the range. Have your buddy load your gun while you look away, one shot at a time. Every few shots, he should sneak in a snap cap. When you pull a move reminiscent of a Michael Jackson dance move as it makes a quiet "snap" you'll find out what I'm talking about. I'd rather shoot a smaller caliber, and shoot it deadly well, than try to compensate with a large bullet designed to make up for poor placement. If you can shoot a 300 RUM with no flinch when a snap cap is snuck in in the place of a live round, good on ya. Most guys can't.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

:|

being that most anything can be taken with a 22LR w/proper placement by the shooter, wouldnt a title something like "I botched the shot w/my______ on a huge bull elk" be more applicable?


its not the weapons fault that its owner cant do their job... just as its not my pen's/keyboard's falut that i cant spell for carp.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

BPturkeys said:


> Here again, thanks for your "I kilt a big bull elk with ma..."
> I know, I forgot your 7.33567mm Whirlytail, Ultra Mag Improved Wildcat caliber, but in all reality, a 150gr .30 bullet acts about the same at say 1850 fps no matter what rifle you shoot it out of.


Guessing this was directed at me. I was only requesting that people specify, but if you want to be a smart*** you should know ballistics.

My example of the .270 and 7MM was based on the bullet diameter initially. To further back what I said though, a 7MM RM and 7 STW will break velocity and energy of 3,000 at the muzzle. .270 is a bit below 3K and the 7MM-08 is well below 3K. Since all these things DIRECTLY relate to each individual caliber, I requested that people specify. These huge variations are all with a 150gr bullet.

Poll's like these lead to uniformed who are looking for more information to only further doubt and second guess decisions, bullets, calibers, etc... Information is good, misinformation is not. So specifics are never a bad thing.

You can be general all you want. I personally think a very loose, non-specific poll is worthless so I thought some more depth and clarification would be good.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

lifes short said:


> Watched my brother shoot a cow elk at under 100 yds with 30-06 150gr Federal. First shot knocked her down, she got back up, second shot knocked her down, she got back up, third shot knocked her down, she got back up, fourth shot she was dead. When we butchered her I found three bullets in her front shoulder and a fourth hole that went clear through. I consider this a failure, not caliber but bullet. Those first three went to pieces on her front shoulder and did not penetrate. I have used Nosler Partitions on any caliber I have Elk hunted with since and not had a failure. Quality bullets are more important than caliber.


Agreed, Federal ammo is cheap for a reason, I used some to get on paper and then verified with Barnes TSX in 150 grain that I hunted with. Took both elk with one shot each and lay dead in their tracks. I would rather be certain than get "lucky".


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

30-06-hunter said:


> Agreed, Federal ammo is cheap for a reason, I used some to get on paper and then verified with Barnes TSX in 150 grain that I hunted with. Took both elk with one shot each and lay dead in their tracks. I would rather be certain than get "lucky".


I shot Federal rounds out of my 7mm Rem mag loaded with a Sierra boattail for years and a number of elk and never did have one get away or need more than 2 shots.

While I like premium bullets such as the Barnes I often wonder how we ever killed a animal such as a elk back when all rounds were either lead or cup and core lead bullets. 
I know it was called marksmanship and you placed your shot where it would miss the heavy bones and punch through to the vitals. The biggest bone that it had to go through was a rib. You avoided the front shoulder or raking shots unless you had a BIG caliber that would punch through them.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

The gentleman that let us take two disabled hunters onto his property to hunt elk strictly forbade us from bringing any 7mm's on his property. 

The story he told was that on a couple occasions the hunter shot the animal and the bullet passed clean through, so he shot it again and maybe a third time til the elk ran off down the highway in the middle of town til it finally collapsed a couple miles down the road.

Mind you this is second hand info, but he was so unimpressed with the 7mm that he said "no more". 

I speculate that the hunters likely didnt make the best choice in projectile, but who really knows?


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

Critter said:


> I shot Federal rounds out of my 7mm Rem mag loaded with a Sierra boattail for years and a number of elk and never did have one get away or need more than 2 shots.
> 
> While I like premium bullets such as the Barnes I often wonder how we ever killed a animal such as a elk back when all rounds were either lead or cup and core lead bullets.
> I know it was called marksmanship and you placed your shot where it would miss the heavy bones and punch through to the vitals. The biggest bone that it had to go through was a rib. You avoided the front shoulder or raking shots unless you had a BIG caliber that would punch through them.


Sorry, I should have specified the Federal PowerShok is not a very good bullet for elk, I realize they also make a premium load that works well.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

If you double lung or heart shoot an elk, it is going to die and die soon. If you only get one lung, you'd better be in shape, because it's going to be a long track job.

Personally, I think calibers of .243 and above are fully capable of killing elk (as many have testified to). If you shoot a 180-grain ballistic tip out of a 30-06 and hit the front shoulder, it's going to explode and you very well may loose the animal. Hit that same animal with the same rifle and a good controlled expansion bullet that will hold together, and your marginal shot becomes just that...more marginal. 

Obviously, there is less room for error with smaller calibers and cartridges. I'd shoot the largest you are capable of consistently putting in the boiler room or base of the neck. Two lungs, an exploded heart, or a broken neck / cratered arterial system are the three consistent ways to kill elk (or any animal for that matter). After that, things become more clouded and gray.


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

I've witnessed that before lifes short, 30-06 150's I remember, ( can't remember the brand)- an older guy from a huge tree stand platform I was with, 4 shots at 40 yards to drop a spike, all four in the front shoulder, he starting walking in circles on the third, forth down, and 5 to put him out- (one in neck). 
spend the extra $5 or $10 for quality bullets, they do pay off.

As far as overall failure, my three blade arrow kills almost as good as my 35 Whelen.
its where ya hit em, just use stuff that will actually reach the vitals.


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

fastcamo said:


> I've witnessed that before lifes short, 30-06 150's I remember, ( can't remember the brand)- an older guy from a huge tree stand platform I was with, 4 shots at 40 yards to drop a spike, all four in the front shoulder, he starting walking in circles on the third, forth down, and 5 to put him out- (one in neck).
> spend the extra $5 or $10 for quality bullets, they do pay off.
> 
> As far as overall failure, my three blade arrow kills almost as good as my 35 Whelen.
> its where ya hit em, just use stuff that will actually reach the vitals.


Yeah, under 60-70 yards I would say most arrows are as deadly if not more than a rifle.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

30-06-hunter said:


> Yeah, under 60-70 yards I would say most arrows are as deadly if not more than a rifle.


Absolutely. I've only shot one elk with my bow. Shot her quartering away and down from a tree stand. Hit her high on the on-side lung and drove down through the off-side lung with the arrow sticking out under her off-side front shoulder. She ran 30 yards and tipped over backwards and was dead in 90 seconds. A good arrow with good shot placement is every bit as deadly as a rifle.


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## lucky duck (Dec 17, 2008)

It's all about shot placement, and I personally keep shooting until they are down or I am unable to make a good clean shot. With this elk I knew the first shot was a good one but he gave me chance to put a second one in and I did just that. FWIW I shoot a 30-06 with 165 grain Nosler partitions.


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

I would say that bullets are more important than caliber. A good bullet that stays together, put through a vital organ, will put an animal on the ground anytime. Doesn't matter if it's a .25, 7mm, .30, .338, or anything else. Only time I've had an animal almost get away from a good shot is when I shot a doe pronghorn through the shoulder with my .30-06, using a Berger bullet that blew up almost as soon as it entered and sent fragments everywhere. We still got her but had to track her for a while, and she needed a finisher to put her down. I'm not blaming the company, maybe I chose the wrong bullet, but it sure didn't do the job. Since then I've used Barnes bullets exclusively for big game and I've never had one fail on me. I've been lucky enough to shoot 3 elk, 2 pronghorns, and a deer with Barnes and they've all done the job, and the 1 bullet that I recovered looked just like the ones in their ads. I think that premium bullets are well worth it for hunting, in the end it all comes down to the bullet and I don't mind paying a bit extra for peace of mind!


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

Critter said:


> By the way I just voted for the .223 just so that I could see the poll results.
> 
> I don't know of any ethical hunter that would hunt a animal the size of a elk with one.


When I lived in New Zealand, I was surprised to learn that a lot of guys down there hunt red stag (which are very close to the size of an elk) with .223's. They go for head and spine shots and seem to do fine with them. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable doing that but it was interesting to see things from a different perspective.


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## Jeff84404 (Oct 9, 2014)

What are people's thoughts on the 45-70 (and 450) for elk up to 200 yards?


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Jeff84404 said:


> What are people's thoughts on the 45-70 (and 450) for elk up to 200 yards?


Why not just hunt them with a muzzleloader?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Nambaster said:


> Why not just hunt them with a muzzleloader?


45-70... sooo much history and nostalgia! They are awesome. My dad has a original 1883 octagon barreled, "one in a thousand" 45-70 in fully fireable condition. I'd LOVE to kill something with it.

I've kicked around getting that caliber in a Guide Gun. It would be incredible for a Bear hunt.

-DallanC


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## Jeff84404 (Oct 9, 2014)

Yeah, a guide gun is what I'm considering in either 45-70 or the modern version the 450. Handy gun with a punch. Just wanted people's thoughts on it for elk. Considering either the Brockman or just a Marlin http://www.brockmansrifles.com/s_guide.asp


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Bax* said:


> The gentleman that let us take two disabled hunters onto his property to hunt elk strictly forbade us from bringing any 7mm's on his property.
> 
> The story he told was that on a couple occasions the hunter shot the animal and the bullet passed clean through, so he shot it again and maybe a third time til the elk ran off down the highway in the middle of town til it finally collapsed a couple miles down the road.
> 
> ...


You should have told him you were using a 280. I'll bet he would have been fine with that.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

LMAO, well played.


-DallanC


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

The voting isn't over yet but it's starting to look like...yeah, this surprised me too...that the 6mm/.243's and the .260/6.5's are clearly the best elk rifles. The diminutive .223 is only slightly better than the 7mm/.270's and .30's, with the .257/.24, .338's and .45's performing only fair.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I watched my brother put four 150 grain Winchester Silvertips out of a 30-06 into an big bull and it just stood there. All were in the chest, all of the bullets performed perfectly. The inside of that chest cavity was red pudding. While he reloaded the bull finally decided it was dead and fell over.
I personally have never shot a _big_ elk so I don't get to vote.


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Accidentally voted for .338-(fat thumbs) but no I won't believe the "6.5 clearly the best elk rifles"-- you asked for caliber failed for elk, you will by far hear more stories about .30 cal fails because well, most people hunt with .30 plus rifles for elk.
If you could go "head to head" caliber vs caliber no limit on elk, same make of bullets, a .338 would consistently drop an elk stone dead in its tracks far more than any 6.5 at any distance. My little .35 hits with the same force at 300 yards as the fast little moving 6.5 does at the muzzle. If I'm wrong here then hurry and develop a guide gun in 6.5 for those big bad bears and buffalo's, cuz that would be a nice light rifle and the dangerous game world would love ya forever.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Some poor schmuck is buying a 6mm for elk hunting today because of this thread.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> Some poor schmuck is buying a 6mm for elk hunting today because of this thread.


Well, and why not? It's hard to argue with statistics. Maybe he'll pick up the larger 6.5 just for reassurance. 
Just to put icing on the cake I'll tell you my experience...years ago I made a perfect one shot kill using a 6mm Rem pushing a 90gr Nosler partition at around 3100fps. Now granted, it was only a spike, but he still went right down.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I remember growing up my dad dropped a spike with a .25-06, aimed for and hit it right between the eyes... it didn't go anywhere. Accuracy > most all other variables.


-DallanC


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

BPturkeys said:


> Well, and why not? It's hard to argue with statistics. Maybe he'll pick up the larger 6.5 just for reassurance.
> Just to put icing on the cake I'll tell you my experience...years ago I made a perfect one shot kill using a 6mm Rem pushing a 90gr Nosler partition at around 3100fps. Now granted, it was only a spike, but he still went right down.


What statistics? by asking what caliber most failed, you will always find .30 plus because the majority of the population uses larger calibers for elk. And there's no icing on anything- my arrow at 326 fps has accomplished the same thing. Its where its placed, a better designed bullet that can penetrate-( nosler partition for example) -that's what its made to do.


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## jshuag (Jan 16, 2014)

I used to be more interested in these surveys until I found an old copy of field and stream from decades ago at someones house. I was thumbing through it and it had a similar survey. "What is your go to caliber for hunting elk?" Guess which one was the top rated? - 30/30 - Yep the classic lever action saddle gun. I've always wondered why we all shoot larger calibers now. I am even guilty of it. (7mm rem mag) I can only conclude that there are fewer animals and more hunters so the equipment needs to perform better at greater distances. I've shot the 30/30 I have many times and have shot deer with it.. .. but. . .... I don't know if I would take it elk hunting. Of course I have no data to back this up other than my own word.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

yeah but,, I ask for "well placed shots" only. Your theory is that most any "well placed shot"...includung one from your arrow...will bring down an elk. If this is true, why so many failures with 30's and .270/7mm...any well placed shot should bring it down...right? There were 19 "well placed shots", over 50% failure with 270/7mm's and .30's????


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

BPturkeys said:


> If this is true, why so many failures with 30's and .270/7mm...any well placed shot should bring it down...right?


You just answered it... they were not well placed shots. I personally feel alot of people hit them just a bit too far back, where the diaphragm is. Hit them high and they can bleed internally, not leaving a blood trail.

-DallanC


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

DallanC said:


> You just answered it... they were not well placed shots. I personally feel alot of people hit them just a bit too far back, where the diaphragm is. Hit them high and they can bleed internally, not leaving a blood trail.
> 
> -DallanC


So are you saying guys shooting 270/7mm/30 are making a higher percentage of poor shots. Could be. Never thought about that. Maybe those guys shooting the big stuff are just relying on the gun doing the job...I'd say that makes the guys shooting the big stuff just not as good as hunters as the guys shooting the small stuff.


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

DallanC said:


> You just answered it... they were not well placed shots. I personally feel alot of people hit them just a bit too far back, where the diaphragm is. Hit them high and they can bleed internally, not leaving a blood trail.
> 
> -DallanC


That and not the the right bullet was selected, also what seems like a great shot in someones mind might or might not be, if you watch close at shooting ranges, guys with bigger calibers flinch a lot more when they either forget to load or take the safety off. No matter how long the thread go's on the larger calibers will have more fails because they just simply are more popular


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I am confused that if these were heart or double lung shots then how did the bullet ever fail? I reread the first and he says a well placed shot. Then I call bull **** on those that voted. Show me an elk that has a double lung or heart shot with a 7mag or .30 that isn't dead.


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

Shot placement should be as close to the shoulder as possible and below just a little below the half way mark. Sure, you only "need" to hit a pie plate, but I think it is better to visualize no more than a tennis ball or baseball as your margin for error, if not aiming for a golf ball.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I have never had a failure on any caliber I've used. An elk that did not die right away was my fault. I think a factor that causes most well placed shots to end up not as welled placed as one would think is that the bullet used was not necessarily for the right situation. For example, a bullet designed to be at it's optimum performance between 1500 fps and 2500 fps hit the animal at near muzzle velocity - say the shot was made from 50 yds away. A bullet has a better chance of zipping through the animal before it can do its job effectively (ie expanding, etc.). The other side of the spectrum is a far shot where the bullet hits the animal traveling at say 900 fps. Sometimes the bullet can be too heavy for the application used and it can pass through before it has a chance to do its deed. I have seen many elk come through the doors at the meat shop shot several times through the "boiler room" with what appears as not the typical exit would hole.

I think that in most nearly all cases, if the caliber and bullet is used within the intended parameters, well placed shots are detrimental for the animal.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I think I agree with quality bullet being more important than your favorite cartridge. We had teh SST thread last year and learned that SST isn't meant for big animals. Someone mentioned BT's not being for big animals, lets not confuse the BT hunting version vs BT varmint version, totally different construction. 
Additionally, just because you didn't achieve DRT doesnt mean it wasnt a good shot and a good bullet. My nephew nailed a buck last year just perfectly with 30-06 from about 75 yards. Left a huge blood trail as it was a very nice exit wound, but surprisingly still went about 75 yards, Hit with a 150 grain TTSX perfectly that separated the heart from all arteries. I couldnt believe he had gone that far with that good of a shot, but he did, and it was slightly down hill.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

This whole thread is a fun overview of statistics. 

First, the data is flawed, if for no other reason than it represents only a fraction of the population. Its also not looking at the proportion of people who hunt with one caliber vs the other, just the failures. You'll notice the 30 cal has one of the highest number of votes for failures on big elk. It's also THE most frequently carried calibers on elk. 

That doesn't by any means mean that the 30 caliber is more likely to fail. In fact it's probably the exact opposite. More guys carry weapons chambered in .30 because they're more confident in it. You'd be better off taking the number of votes and dividing it by the total number of 30 caliber guns carried in the field to get a failure percentage. Good luck chasing down those statistics. 

It kind of reminds me of a statistic I read regarding dog bites. It was published by a pit bull advocacy group. It stated that laborador retrievers were the highest instance of dog bites in America. What they failed to mention is that labs are the most commonly owned and that the percentage of labs involved in a bite instance vs the percentage of other breeds was extremely low.

I think with careless phrasing of survey questions, and poor data collection, you can statistically "prove" any agenda you may have.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

I am amused by the number of folks shooting .260 or bigger claiming the rifle failed. The fact is, if you lost an animal it shooting one of those calibers it was likely bullet failure or shooter failure. Reality is 90% of the time it is probably shooter failure even if you drop down to a 6mm. I'm not sure bullet failure can't be attributed to the shooter as well since a little study would indicate what type of bullet should be used at the speeds you are shooting at and the game animal you are pursuing.

I shoot a bigger caliber because I feel more comfortable taking shots that I know are going to have to penetrate bone in order to get into the vitals. A poorly hit animal will not die any faster from a .30 caliber bullet vs a .244.


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