# Anterless moose tags back?



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I saw the DWR is recommending 5 cow Moses tags for a few units in the state, are our moose herds doing good now or are they just releasing tags to release tags?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I saw the DWR is recommending 5 cow Moses tags for a few units in the state, are our moose herds doing good now or are they just releasing tags to release tags?


If you're talking about moose (I've never heard of a cow Moses), I'll take it as a good sign. I can't imagine why the DWR would want antlerless moose harvested if the population doesn't warrant it. After all, they were making almost as much money offering no tags as they will offering 5.

Now I just need to decide if I want to put in. At a rate of 5 tags per year, I should be about guaranteed a draw within the next 600 years. Seems reasonable.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Where is this info? I didn't find anything with a quick search of the website


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2016-04_rac_packet.pdf


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Oops, my bad. Statewide, there are 20 antlerless permits offered this year. At that rate, I should have a good chance at a draw within the next 150 years.

Lots of other interesting stuff in those recommendations... but most are probably better suited to another thread. Thanks for bringing it all to my attention, 1-I.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2016-04_rac_packet.pdf


Txs 1-I


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I have 8 antlerless moose points.

how many years would it take me to draw? (i'd love some moose burger and moose steak!)


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

My best guess is they figure the moose are dying for whatever reason might as well give people the opportunity to harvest.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> My best guess is they figure the moose are dying for whatever reason might as well give people the opportunity to harvest.


Do these cows that are dying off have undescended testicles?


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Do these cows that are dying off have undescended testicles?


They are born with 100% taint


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

My question is why they aren't upping Henries LE deer tags. Their objective is 40% over 5 years old and they're at 80%. Seems they could issue a few more tags there and still stay well within their objectives.

I have no skin in this game though with only 2 LE points, so it doesn't impact me at all.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Do these cows that are dying off have undescended testicles?


That's the weird thing, even when you cut them open you can't find testicles! And if i play with their jaw positions, and wait for the cartilage to shrivel up they look like they have underbites!


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> That's the weird thing, even when you cut them open you can't find testicles! And if i play with their jaw positions, and wait for the cartilage to shrivel up they look like they have underbites!


 Don't you guys ever quit?-O|o-


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> My question is why they aren't upping Henries LE deer tags. Their objective is 40% over 5 years old and they're at 80%. Seems they could issue a few more tags there and still stay well within their objectives.
> 
> I have no skin in this game though with only 2 LE points, so it doesn't impact me at all.


Don didn't give them permission to. He did allow an increase in management tags, however. Kind fellow, he is!


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

MWScott72 said:


> My question is why they aren't upping Henries LE deer tags. Their objective is 40% over 5 years old and they're at 80%. Seems they could issue a few more tags there and still stay well within their objectives.


Because they don't want to argue for 3 hours over 2 or 5 permits. When the UDWR tries to raise permits by even a minimal number they are met with hours of arguments at the RAC and Board. It just isn't worth their time.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

If that truly is the reason, then every single one of them should be fired immediately. 

They set the rules surrounding age objectives and buck:doe ratio. When they fall below the arbitrarily set standard, they have zero issue cutting tags. When they are significantly above, by their own rules, the tags are supposed to increase. Not sure why I expect them to follow their own rules. I guess I'm a bit of a romantic in that way. 

But seriously, if the reason you gave is indeed true, Packout, then this truly might be the most worthless group of individuals ever assembled. 3 hours is too much time to increase premium opportunities for the citizens that own the game and the public these employees are supposed to be serving?

Sorry. That's struck a chord for me. I really hope that isn't the reason.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Vanilla-- It is just my thoughts as I have just watched the UDWR present a minimal tag increase on the Henry Mtns and then the public, RACs, and Board complain about it. They talk about it for hours and don't even look at some of the other issues. Finally, when the dust settles the Board doesn't approve the increase.

The Henry Mtn objective is a minimum of 40% which need to be 5 years old or older. I don't see a trigger there to increase tags from a maximum objective.

--


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

PBH said:


> I have 8 antlerless moose points.
> 
> how many years would it take me to draw? (i'd love some moose burger and moose steak!)


Meh, it's all guesswork anyway. The more I try to calculate odds and predict results, the more I want to adopt the standard mentality of "play to win, and don't give a $&!+ about the odds" that I hear whenever I try to talk stats with hunters. If I had enough money to apply for every hunt I wanted in every state without suffering for it, I'd do exactly that.

That being said, if we assume that all units will be equally difficult to draw (a bad assumption) and that there will be 20 tags offered each year (another bad assumption) and that of those tags, 8 will go to the bonus pool (a valid assumption given the others, as long as draw procedures aren't changed), you'll have your tag within 77 years at most. Apply for units with better odds, and stay alive while everyone else gives up/dies, and you'll probably get it much sooner.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Based on this year's tag allocations, I am sure glad I have 3 points over the lowest bonus point tag for my LE elk tag since they cut tags from 21 to 14!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Clarq -- how are you calculating?

How many bonus points do people have for antlerless moose? I'm not sure how long bonus points have been available to accumulate for antlerless moose...


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

PBH said:


> Clarq -- how are you calculating?
> 
> How many bonus points do people have for antlerless moose? I'm not sure how long bonus points have been available to accumulate for antlerless moose...


I believe the top point holders have 9. Im with you at 8 points.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

PBH said:


> Clarq -- how are you calculating?
> 
> How many bonus points do people have for antlerless moose? I'm not sure how long bonus points have been available to accumulate for antlerless moose...


Here's a link:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2015/15_antlerless_bonus_point_purchase.pdf

The way I understand this report, 243 people applied with 9 points (max) last year, so they will now have 10. 184 people applied with 8 points last year, so they will now have 9. And 194 people applied with 7 points, so they will be right with you at 8 (and I may be misinterpreting the report-someone please chime in if you know whether I'm reading the report right).

That would be a total of 621 people with 8 or more points.

The RAC packet shows that for each of the four units will have 1 nonresident tag and 4 resident tags. Since half of those will go to those in the top point pool, eight tags will go to those with max points this year.

So, if we are removing 8 people a year from the 8+ points queue, it will clear in 77-78 years.

If I am reading the report wrong, and there are 243 people with 9 (max) points right now, and 184 with 8 points right now, everyone with 8+ points would receive a bonus tag within about 53 years at a rate of 8 per year.

Like I said though, all of the theoretical math becomes kind of useless when we're talking about those kinds of time periods (and the huge amount of uncertainty in who will apply, and where they will apply doesn't help either). People die, people give up, and if I had to guess, anyone with 8+ points will have a pretty good shot at making the bonus pool if moose populations do well, and they can stay in the game for a few decades.

IMO, anyone who draws a cow moose tag in Utah should get a lifetime waiting period. I would feel pretty guilty if I managed to draw two cow moose tags while watching so many others waiting in line for a chance that may or may not ever come.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Clarq said:


> The way I understand this report, 243 people applied with 9 points (max) last year, so they will now have 10. 184 people applied with 8 points last year, so they will now have 9. And 194 people applied with 7 points, so they will be right with you at 8 (and I may be misinterpreting the report-someone please chime in if you know whether I'm reading the report right).
> 
> That would be a total of 621 people with 8 or more points.
> 
> ...


Great breakdown of the situation. Just another example of why points for low opportunity hunts is a poor way to distribute permits.

------


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Packout said:


> Great breakdown of the situation. Just another example of why points for low opportunity hunts is a poor way to distribute permits.
> 
> ------


+1

For low-opportunity hunts, I favor either a straight-up random draw, or something like Nevada does.

They take the number of points you have, square them, add one for the current year, and that is the number of chances you have to draw out of the whole. No permits are reserved exclusively for top point holders, but it does skew the odds in their favor.


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

Scratch that thought I did my research and saw I was incorrect.
On high note then that means I have a chance to draw another tag with my 3 points.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

3arabians said:


> I believe the top point holders have 9. Im with you at 8 points.


im close to that number as well. it just good to see I might be able to use them


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

So, we are 3 pages into this thread now and we have discussed draw odds and RAC meeting politics, but does any have any info in which they can answer 1-I's original question about how the moose herd is doing? I wish I knew, but I got nothin.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

The document link claims that the moose herd is increasing, and that's why the tags are coming back. Whether that reflects public perception or otherwise I don't know.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Here is my contribution to the public perception: I don't think the decision to offer these tags had anything to do with public perception. I am glad they are offering the tags again because I have been just buying these points every year hoping that one day they would offer the opportunity again. This proves that myself and many others haven't been out of our **** minds to keep buying these points when no tags were offered.

I am a little suspicious of the recommendation to offer these tags at this point. For a moose population that has been in decline for so many years to just up and offer cow tags citing an increase in the population seems a little irresponsible to me. I am excited to have a minuscule chance at a cow moose permit this year and will be thrilled if I draw. However, If I were the DWR I would prefer to wait a few more years to make sure the moose population was back on track to be the healthy herd we were seeing in the mid 2000s. But....hopefully the stewards of our Wildlife know more than what they are telling us about the health of the moose populations in these units and the permits are absolutely warranted. I am trusting in them that they are doing the right thing.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

3arabians said:


> I am a little suspicious of the recommendation to offer these tags at this point. For a moose population that has been in decline for so many years to just up and offer cow tags citing an increase in the population seems a little irresponsible to me. I am excited to have a minuscule chance at a cow moose permit this year and will be thrilled if I draw. However, If I were the DWR I would prefer to wait a few more years to make sure the moose population was back on track to be the healthy herd we were seeing in the mid 2000s. But....hopefully the stewards of our Wildlife know more than what they are telling us about the health of the moose populations in these units and the permits are absolutely warranted. I am trusting in them that they are doing the right thing.


The RAC packet had some pretty detailed info on deer and elk population objectives, estimates, etc. I wonder why they wouldn't list the same for moose. I have to believe the info is out there somewhere, but I don't know where.

At some point we will either have to do the research for ourselves, or trust that the DWR is doing the right thing. I personally don't believe they would recklessly manage a resource as valuable as our moose herds. One could argue that they are making a well-intended mistake, but without data, that would be a hard argument to make.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Clarq said:


> 3arabians said:
> 
> 
> > I am a little suspicious of the recommendation to offer these tags at this point. For a moose population that has been in decline for so many years to just up and offer cow tags citing an increase in the population seems a little irresponsible to me. I am excited to have a minuscule chance at a cow moose permit this year and will be thrilled if I draw. However, If I were the DWR I would prefer to wait a few more years to make sure the moose population was back on track to be the healthy herd we were seeing in the mid 2000s. But....hopefully the stewards of our Wildlife know more than what they are telling us about the health of the moose populations in these units and the permits are absolutely warranted. I am trusting in them that they are doing the right thing.
> ...


Right, and this lends to my suspicion. I agree its a tough sell to state the DWR is going to be irresponsible with managing an animal like a moose. I just hope that they aren't offering up these tags to rekindle interest in buying/applying for cow moose to generate money. Then we get a news flash next season or two with "due to declining moose populations there will not be any cow moose tags this year". I would much rather they wait for a boom in moose populations and offer them then--maybe thats the case in these units. I'm not sure why they are issuing these tags because the info just doesnt seem to be available. If anyone knows where it is I would love to see it.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

3arabians said:


> I just hope that they aren't offering up these tags to rekindle interest in buying/applying for cow moose to generate money.


I hate these theories. 
I hate them, because I cannot believe that if this were the case that we wouldn't have biologists -- you know, those guys who actually do the work bu do not make the decisions on tag numbers -- spilling the beans? These guys hunt too! Wouldn't they be furious? Wouldn't they be crying foul, and stating that the herds cannot support it?

Those biologists have nothing to gain from increased tag sales -- it's not like they get a bonus if tag sales increase! Heck, these guys can't even get a raise from our legislature! Why would they [DWR biologists] want to increase tag sales?? So, if these tags were bad for the herds, I honestly believe we'd have DWR employees (biologists, technicians, clerks, etc.) raising hell.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

While I don't subscribe to notion that this hunt is only to drive up cow moose applications and get more money, I also don't subscribe to the idea that if it was for nefarious purposes, employees would expose it. Even good people do crazy things when their job is on the line. And this would not be the first time employees put their heads in the sand and kept quiet, even though they knew what the company/agency was doing was wrong. 

That said...I am not accusing the DWR or biologists of this. I think the hunt is happening because the population can handle a hunt. But I don't have enough faith in people, and especially government agencies, to just trust it is right simply because it is happening. 

I think any time a population of game animal can sustain a hunt, we should have a hunt. That doesn't mean kill them all off. Simply hunt what is sustainable. If the hunt is only sustainable for two years, and they cut it back off. The system works if you do it that way. If the hunt is not sustainable, then don't hold the hunt.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Here's my take. My family has property in an area that has historically held a good sized population of moose. This area was one of the primary areas where the DWR would come and take moose to supplement populations elsewhere or remove moose for trade with other states. Moose used to be everywhere, I could jump on an ATV and go for a 20 minute ride in the evening and see a dozen or more. It was also not uncommon to sit at the picnic table on the porch of the cabin in the evening and have what seemed like a parade of moose come down to the salt lick & water trough... big bulls, small bulls, cows with calves, yearlings... you name it all in one evening and on a nightly basis. There were numerous occurrences of moose walking within feet of the fire pit as we roasted s'mores... a few brave souls would remain at the fire pit while most would retreat to the safety of the cabin during such close encounters, there were more than a few times that we ended up with marshmallow roasting sticks in the bathroom tub because careful mothers didn't want little kids "going back out there with the moose." Now we may have a moose come in to the salt lick three times during a week... and this past year I only ever saw the same cow and calf.

The population is definitely down but encounters are still frequent enough and seem to be increasing so I am mildly encouraged. In spite of this mild encouragement, however, I have noticed over the last couple years that the ratio of bulls to cows in my own encounters (both my own eyes and trail camera) has increased dramatically so my cause for concern is again growing. Over the muzzleloader deer and general muzzleloader elk hunts this year I saw maybe a half dozen cows and I don't know how many of those cows were repeat sightings of the same cow. With each of those cows was typically three to four bulls and it was not uncommon to see groups of three to five bulls grouped up together with no cow in sight. During the elk hunt, one morning from the car we could see ten moose on the opposite hillside... nine were bulls. I'm not concerned right now for the number of bulls, they are there and I see them regularly and after several years of seeing mostly younger bulls I am starting to see some larger, more mature bulls but still not with the regularity of 8 to 10 years ago (of course). What I am not seeing are cows, and from my layman's perspective I have seen a noticeable decline in the number of cows over the last several years now.

So because of my own observations over the last several years, it gives me pause to think of bringing back the cow tags right now. I hope that the decision is biologically based and not politically/financially driven.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

derek,

Question-- Is your property in any of the proposed cow moose hunt areas? Although I have not looked at it closely, it looks like the 4 areas are limited to a pretty concentrated area, not spread out across the state. 

You easily could be in an area that is not rebounding the way another area is, and while your area might not sustain a hunt, another potentially could. 

I have no clue where your property is at, but it was a thought I had that could reconcile that both you and the DWR are correct.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> derek,
> 
> Question-- Is your property in any of the proposed cow moose hunt areas? Although I have not looked at it closely, it looks like the 4 areas are limited to a pretty concentrated area, not spread out across the state.
> 
> ...


Ogden unit, so yes it is AND the Ogden unit is subdivided into two for the antlerless hunt... Ogden and Ogden, West. So the "Ogden" will have ten total cow tags. Admittedly, I do cover only a very small area within the unit, but from my observations 10 tags across that unit compared against what I am seeing (and I'm speaking with 30+ years experience in what was once considered one of the most premium moose herds within the state)...

it seems like a lot.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting. I would like to see the population estimates and the trends they believe are happening.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

derek -- do you know what the herd objectives were when you were seeing lots of moose? do you know what the herd count compared to that objective was?


Just trying to understand if this is a similar situation to Plateau antelope hunts where people associate "the good years" to a situation where herd population far exceeded management objectives.


would you be willing to let me shoot a cow moose on your property? ;-)


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

PBH said:


> derek -- do you know what the herd objectives were when you were seeing lots of moose? do you know what the herd count compared to that objective was?
> 
> Just trying to understand if this is a similar situation to Plateau antelope hunts where people associate "the good years" to a situation where herd population far exceeded management objectives.
> 
> would you be willing to let me shoot a cow moose on your property? ;-)


I'm not sure what the objectives were... does the DWR even publish moose objectives? If they do I have never seen them so I'd be interested to know what "objective" for the unit is. The Big Game Annual Reports give very little information regarding populations and objectives, it's mostly just hunter success data. The current Moose Management Plan is 2009-2017, and in that plan is says the 5 year trend in 2009 was stable and the ten year trend was down with a population estimate of 500. The transplant history included in that plan is interesting, 80 head removed from Ogden alone with another 104 removed from the Ogden/Cache/Morgan/etc units since 1991. Of note, are the number of transplants they considered failures. So the DWR felt they had enough moose in the area to keep attempting failed transplants, I guess.

Anyway... I have no doubt whatever the objective was during "the good years" they were exceeding them because the DWR was constantly taking moose from the herd. I'm not naïve enough to think that "the good years" were probably too good!

You're more than welcome to the public land adjacent to the property... but then again so is everybody else. ;-)


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## N8ON (Oct 7, 2010)

Wahooooo! I am the lone max point holder for NR. They must have not offered cow moose tags to NR until a year after residents. Have to say it feels good to look at the bonus point purchase and know which one is me. On a realistic note, it doesn't do a lot of good as there would need to be 2 NR tags allocated for one unit to benefit me. Don't think we are close to that.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

N8ON said:


> Wahooooo! I am the lone max point holder for NR. They must have not offered cow moose tags to NR until a year after residents. Have to say it feels good to look at the bonus point purchase and know which one is me. On a realistic note, it doesn't do a lot of good as there would need to be 2 NR tags allocated for one unit to benefit me. Don't think we are close to that.


It's too bad being in the top of the point pool won't guarantee you a tag, but on the bright side, your odds should be far better than the odds of most residents. Good luck! A cow moose hunt would be a fun excuse to come back for a visit.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Glad I drew my cow permit in 2008. I haven't put in for points since, but I'd love to help pack one out if any of you lucky souls do draw!


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