# cut-bows at strawberry?



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

can anyone tell me the deal about cut-bows at strawberry? I have heard a lot of different things. The most common is that the dwr plants sterile rainbows each year so they wont cross-breed. i have also heard that since they spawn at different times they wont cross. i asked a fish cop once if there were any cut-bows in the lake and he said there are none, and lectured me about the above reasons. WELL- today my wife caught a fish that i was sure was a rainbow, so i was all stoked that she could finally keep one from there, but then i noticed its throat had identical markings of a cutt. We let it go, but it made me wonder all over again. tell me what you think. sorry, no pics of the red on its throat.


----------



## americanforkdude (Sep 13, 2007)

I don't know the truth to the spawning but I do know the rainbows they plant are sterile (which i think is a waste of money). I've also caught bow's in other waters as well as strawberry that have had the red marks and it is very frustrating. Always better to be safe then sorry though.. Nice report. how was the ice?


----------



## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

A lot of Rainbows have the red slashings under the jaw like a cutt. The one you have pictured is a Rainbow, you should've kept it.


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

i really wanted to but the law says any cutt or fish with cutthroat markings. its not worth a ticket to me. did i have an argument? i always get the power trippin C.O. who created the world and knows everything, so i figured i would lose if i tried to argue this one. obviously it was a rainbow, but better safe than sorry i guess


----------



## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

The fish in your post is a rainbow trout. Here's what the UDWR has in their proclamation. It's a good idea to have one handy while you're fishin'.

Rainbow Trout 
Colors vary greatly-with patterns depending on habitat, size and maturity. Stream residents and migrant spawners are darker and have more intense colors than lake residents or non-spawners. Lake residents tend to be silvery with subdued colors. A mature rainbow is dark green to bluish on the back with silvery sides. The pinkish to reddish horizontal band typifies the species. The belly may be white to silvery. Irregular and profuse black spots are usually present on the head, back and sides. *The pelvic and anal fins are translucent pink to gray-green and tipped in white.* Rainbow trout also tend to have a fairly blunt snout. Some of the rainbow trout stocked in the state are sterile triploids, which are produced to prevent hybridization with native cutthroat.

Bear Lake Cutthroat 
The Bear Lake cutthroat is a form of the Bonneville cutthroat trout native to Bear Lake. Bear Lake cutthroat have been stocked in a number of other Utah waters including Strawberry, Panguitch Lake, Otter Creek, Koosharem and Minersville. Slash marks under the jaw are not a reliable characteristic to distinguish Bear Lake cutthroat trout from rainbow trout, particularly in flat-water (reservoir or lake) environments. *Bear Lake cutthroat trout often lack the bright crimson jaw slash, which may at times be yellow, gray or non-existent.* *Deep orange pelvic and anal fins and the presence of few, if any, spots on the head readily distinguish Bear Lake cutthroat from rainbow trout (see rainbow trout description).* Bear Lake cutthroat can exhibit a variety of spotting patterns, but spots are generally sparsely scattered, large and rounded in outline. Spotting is typically more concentrated near the tail. During the spawning season, Bear Lake cut- 
throat (particularly the males) take on a bronze color along the sides and lower body, and often develop rosy-colored gill plates.

Once you gut and clean them the slashes under the jaw will be gone anyway.

Fishrmn


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

ya i thought about that as i was helping him back into the water. oh well. it was a fun fish for my wife to catch. thanks for the descriptions


----------



## ScottyP (Sep 12, 2007)

You did the right thing by airing on the side of caution. If you want to take some fish home, there are plenty of options besides strawberry that have plenty of tasty rainbows where you don't have to second guess yourself. Looks like you guys had a nice time out.

FWIW, I don't think there are cuttbows in strawberry. I've caught plenty of rainbows in other places that have jaw slash marks and plenty of cutts that have faint or nearly non-existent slash marks.


----------



## rapalahunter (Oct 13, 2007)

Here's a picture of the two side-by-side to illustrate the great points by fishrmn:


----------



## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

AHHH its killing me! I hate to say it but Fishrmn is RIGHT. :| Ha ha just kidding man. Heres what the Proc says.
Slash marks under the jaw 
should not to be used to distinguish Bear 
Lake cutthroat trout from rainbow trout at 
Strawberry. Slashing is sometimes absent 
on Bear Lake cutthroats, and is sometimes 
present on rainbows. Better characteristics 
are deep orange pelvic and anal fins on the 
cutthroats, and white-tipped pink to gray- 
green pelvic and anal fins on the rainbows. 
Rainbows also have the pinkish lateral 
stripe on the sides (see fish descriptions 
beginning on page 54 of this guide for more 
information).

It was a beautiful fish and its there for us to catch another day!
Heres another pic...
[attachment=03qgdbof]P1000271.JPG[/attachment3qgdbof]


----------



## Improv (Sep 8, 2007)

Another perfect argument as to why the slot limit should apply to both the rainbows and cutthroats at Strawberry. Large rainbows are just as effective at keeping the chub population in check as the cutthroats are. Besides, it eliminates the need for Joe Public and the fish cops having to be fish biologist. Did you read the description of how to tell the difference between the two? Holy crap, how many variables were there? “If it’s the forth month after the loonier equinoxes the male cutthroats may have red, or pick, or gray, or white or translucent, anal fins which may also look the same as the male rainbows”???? And what about the folks that are just learning the English language – how well do you think they’ll do understanding this? Let’s make this real simple, just have the DWR include a flexible tape measure with the proclamation and make it mandatory that you have to have it with you at all times when fishing waters that have a slot limit – that way we are all using the same unified standard of measurement.

The more you allow fisherman to make good decisions based on a little education, the more disappointed you’ll be – after all, we are just not that smart


----------



## americanforkdude (Sep 13, 2007)

IMPROV, as much as I hate to agree with you about adding the bows to the slot, I think you are right. It would make things less complicated and the bows will eat the chubs as well...

However, I think the more restrictions you put on waters affects the number of licenses the DWR sells. I know that is part of the reason my old man don't fish anymore. So you kind of have to weigh each of them together.


----------



## americanforkdude (Sep 13, 2007)

And as bad as that sounds, not all of us are what you would call "sportsman". In most people's mind, if you pay for a license and you can't bring fish home, you are throwing your money down the drain. I don't know how many times I get harrassed by friends and family for simply catch and release fishing, but to me it's not about that.... but to other people it is.


----------



## Improv (Sep 8, 2007)

americanforkdude said:


> I think the more restrictions you put on waters affects the number of licenses the DWR sells. I know that is part of the reason my old man don't fish anymore. So you kind of have to weigh each of them together.


I understand what you are saying - my old man feels the same way. However, if you can somehow convince Joe Public that a trophy fish is a trophy fish, regardless if it's a rainbow or a cutthroat. Besides, I'd rather catch a 17-inch rainbow from Strawberry vs. a 23-inch cutthroat in terms of how well they fight. The cutthroats have more fight in the net then they do on the line.


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

thanks for all the help. my only problem is that any fish with cutt markings has to be released. i know the difference between a cutt and a bow, and i understand all those decriptions, but i would be the one to get a ticket for keeping a fish with cutt markings, even though one sometimes has them, and one sometimes doesn't. any fish cops out there? i want to know what you would do if you checked me and i had this fish in my posession.


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

It comes down to the simple statement in the proc that not all cutthroats have slashes under their jaws, and that you should be aware of the other markings to distinguish one fish from another. Is this so much different than identifying your target when hunting ducks or other game? It just comes down to educating yourself on the subject. Let's not say we need to add more rules or regs when all that REALLY needs to happen is for people to know what the heck they are catching.


----------



## grousehunter (Sep 11, 2007)

Everyone is making good points, however all of this means nothing depending on the officer that checks you. Here is my best analogy: The second amendment states: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. Well if you gather two groups of people together you will be told it means a plethora of different things. Language seams to be open to interpretation. It should never be this way, however this is the world we live in. The Supreme Court is debating the meaning of Militia, when all you have to do is grab a copy of a Dictionary from that time period and you will see it meant several things including "the people". So until everyone can decide that words mean something I will error on the side of caution and not be ticketed because someone may interpret whatever markings on a rainbow looks like a cutthroat.


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

How about this- the first one of us that gets a ticket for supposedly keeping a "cutthroat", will get backed-up by the rest of us in court, through the gathering of all these different parts of the proclamation that are "confusing", then when the ticket is dropped, because the fish cop was proved wrong, they'll make the law more clear. Last year, I wondered the same exact things that deadicated has brought up. I researched it, and the details really aren't all that fuzzy when you put all the info from the proc together. It just takes a little bit of research by responsible fisherman to understand. BTW, I should mention that I commend deadicated for erring on the side of caution, and returning the fish. My dad did the same thing several years ago with a 3-4 pound cutt, just because he wasn't sure of the law. Unless you absolutely know, it is always more responsible to let the fish go. Besides, what's the harm in one going back to catch another day anyway?


----------



## Improv (Sep 8, 2007)

ChaserOfAllBirds said:


> How about this- the first one of us that gets a ticket for supposedly keeping a "cutthroat", will get backed-up by the rest of us in court, through the gathering of all these different parts of the proclamation that are "confusing", then when the ticket is dropped, because the fish cop was proved wrong, they'll make the law more clear. Last year, I wondered the same exact things that deadicated has brought up. I researched it, and the details really aren't all that fuzzy when you put all the info from the proc together. It just takes a little bit of research by responsible fisherman to understand. BTW, I should mention that I commend deadicated for erring on the side of caution, and returning the fish. My dad did the same thing several years ago with a 3-4 pound cutt, just because he wasn't sure of the law. Unless you absolutely know, it is always more responsible to let the fish go. Besides, what's the harm in one going back to catch another day anyway?


Now that is a proactive approached to the problem. Wait until you get a ticket and then spend a lot of money in legal fees just to prove that the proclamation is ambiguous in its definition of a cutthroat - Brilliant! (If you can't tell, I'm typing with the sarcastic key pressed down.)

If you don't mind, I'd like to point out a few flaws in your solution. First off you are asking the fisherman to:

1.	Educate themselves. 
2.	Be responsible

Have you seen some of the post on this site - how many times have fish identification been in question? And these are the smart fishermen. I think having the slot apply to both rainbows and cutthroat would actually simplify things considerably.

By the way, this topic will be brought up again in the next RAC meeting. If you agree with this, I would love your support. Details to follow.


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I see your point Improv, and agree considerably with everything but adding rainbows to the slot limit. My point has 2 sides to it: 1) Educate yourself so you know what you are doing out there, as to not break the law; and 2) If you didn't educate yourself, and are unsure what species you just caught, turn it back. My thoughts about the whole ticket thing were only to illustrate that I, not necessarily everyone else, have educated myself on the subject, and thus feel that I would have a winning argument if it ever came up. Not only that, but I always carry a proclamation while fishing, and feel that any reasonable CO would hear me out, and see that my argument holds water. If it goes as far as court, I would certainly show up explain why the CO was in err. I see your point that adding bows to the slot limit would eliminate the confusion, but so would a little reading up on the proclamation. I, as many of you here, hate laws, rules, and regulations that result from the few ruining things for the many.


----------



## Improv (Sep 8, 2007)

Good comments.

Please don’t get me wrong – I couldn’t agree more when it comes to education and fishing. I too have a proclamation with me, because lakes and rivers have their regulations changed from year to year all the time and from what I remember from my driver’s ed. class “ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law”.


----------



## grousehunter (Sep 11, 2007)

Improv said:


> Now that is a proactive approached to the problem. Wait until you get a ticket and then spend a lot of money in legal fees just to prove that the proclamation is ambiguous in its definition of a cutthroat - Brilliant!


Also, any Peace Officer in this state can check you and make the wrong call, not to mention this officer could have already had a bad day and someone arguing with him/her will not help. If you have a cracked taillight or your registration expired the day before, ECT... plan on some more tickets.

If I am checked, I want to be the least amount of trouble for them! It would be nice if you could explain it to them and all would be okay. Unfortunately my experience is that arguing with an officer (even if your right) will still end with a ticket. The DMV made an error on my vehicle registration and the officer did not care, I ended up spending time fighting the DMV and then, more time dealing with the fix-it ticket. :x


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Man am I being misunderstood or what?! Some of you are taking me for a belligerent fool on this thread! I, in no way, condoned arguing, nor said that I would argue with a CO. If I am being reasonable, and understanding of his position, that same respect will come back to me. On the other hand, if I were to get nasty with him, of course he's gonna try to ding me for everything he possibly can. If you try to act like a know-it-all, any CO is certainly going to power trip. They don't want things to get out of control, and will assert their authority to see that it doesn't. All I was suggesting (saying it for the 3rd or 4th time now) is that the proclamation explains what is legal, and what is not. I have read and understand the regs. I feel confident that I could REASON with a CO, to prove that I have not broken the law. I am positive that CO's would rather go that route than to issue a ticket that wasn't necessary. Unless of course there is a ticket quota for COs like there is for city cops! :lol:


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

i wish i could agree with you, mr. chaser. i have had few good experiences when i try to reasonably prove my point. one time, i was hunting ducks near a road, which, i believe to be legal, and this guy was ripping me a new one about shooting too close to the road. i know this has been discussed on this forum, and is a totally different issue, but i couldn't get two words in. when he was done, my exact words were- (calmly) i try to follow all the laws, and i read the proc a lot, and i didn't see anywhere in there where it said i had to be x distance from a road. i then pulled out my proc and asked if he could help me find it. he threw it on the ground and said if i want to be a smart a we can talk about it downtown. its like if you are right and can prove them wrong, they get more mad and wont hear any of it. i should have done a citizen's arrest for littering :lol:


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I guess that's the difference between Joe Schmoe and an officer of the law. It has happened many times where dudes get tore up one side and down the other, but being non-reactive will always help your cause with an officer.


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

ya its true, and i have seen it work that way, but it sure didnt this time. i was polite and did everything he asked me. no back talk or smart alec or nothin. mostly cuz my truck was expired... but he didnt say anything about that. oh well. ill study up on the procs, and just start catching rainbows and 22"+ cutts.


----------



## wizbang (Feb 14, 2008)

I've caught bows with red and cuts without. Unless I can identify it with out any cut markings or under 14 3/4 inches above 22 1/4 back in the water it goes. If you watch the fish cops some of them measure differently than I do. tip of the top of the fin to the snout streaching it out as much as they can. That's why if it's close to 15 back it goes. 

Besides this is one of the reasons strawberry is so awesome. There are plenty of fish to catch. The killer is when you have a beautiful 20 inch fish that you get off the hook fast and back in the water and it decides to go belly up. I've watched and most turn and find there way but some just stay belly up so I pull everything back in and circle back and try and give it a little resucitation (sometimes to no avail) and I have to leave it their for the seagulls. thats the way it goes sometimes. I've gotten really good to not even touch them, grab the hook with the needle nose and twist it up and around and the fish drops into the water.


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

thats why you need to keep a little barbeque on your boat, to destroy the eveidence


----------



## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

I am on board with Improv on this one. Not only would encludding all game fish in the slot limit solve the problem of species identification but would be better for the fishery as well. (Read my post in the "chubs" thread). Fishemen would still be able to harvest fish under and over the slot but instead of taking home a bunch of little fish you would be able to take home only that occassional really big one. Would anyone really mind that that much?


----------



## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

With a lake the size of Strawberry and the millions of fish that swim in it, making it even harder to take a fish home would surely leave a bad taste in many mouths. I love that I can go up there and take home any bow I catch, if I don't land that big cuttie. It keeps me coming back.

The current slot seems to do a great job of giving us plenty of 20 inch cutts to look at for a moment, but slapping a slot on the bows would just make it more frustrating to go and fish Utah's most popular reservoir (for fishing).

JMO


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

See that's kind of how I feel. Most fish that you catch on any given trip up there are all slot cutts anyway, so its nice when you can keep a bow when you actually catch one. I have caught only 3 in the last few trips I have been up there, two at about 13 inches, and one at 16. Its nice to be able to keep at least a couple here and there. Not only that, but with the bows being sterile, and clearly planted for the people to be able to keep some fish, I'd just as soon have them leave it as is.


----------



## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

ChaserOfAllBirds said:


> Not only that, but with the bows being sterile, and clearly planted for the people to be able to keep some fish, I'd just as soon have them leave it as is.
> See that's kind of how I feel. Most fish that you catch on any given trip up there are all slot cutts anyway, so its nice when you can keep a bow when you actually catch one. I have caught only 3 in the last few trips I have been up there, two at about 13 inches, and one at 16. Its nice to be able to keep at least a couple here and there. Not only that, but with the bows being sterile, and clearly planted for the people to be able to keep some fish, I'd just as soon have them leave it as is.


I don't mean to highjack Dedicated 1's thread. It might be better to make this comment in the other thread but Chaser's thoughts are here so I will respond here. Chaser is right. I think the sole reason the DWR stocks rainbows in Strawberry is for the opportunity to take some fish home without overharvisting the cutthroats. But the simple math is still in effect. It costs too much to stock enough larger rainbows to allow a liberal harvest. Either most of the rainbows will be predated by the cutts if they are stocked at economical size or the DWR will have to stock fewer rainbows large enough to escape predation. Either way the numbers of rainbow in Strawberry will be relatively few. I think if you are going to catch only an occassional rainbow anyway it might as well be a really big one. And I honestly think that encludding the rainbows in the slot combined with stocking only rainbows large enough to escape predation would be the best thing for the fishery from a biologic perspective by making the controle of chubs more efficient. And if a family wants to go fishing and take home a limit of catchable rainbows they can allways go somewhere where there is no predation problem and the DWR can stock economically enough to allow a relatively liberal harvest, like say the Uintas where it is easier to catch those "planters" anyway.


----------



## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

I must say that I usually just read the great posts by everyone or I should say most people on this forum. I love fishing at Strawberry, my family keep's a boat up there in the fence during the winter and in a slot at the dock all during fishing season. I pass Deer Creek every weekend to go up to Strawberry and have to lauph sometimes because I never give it a second thought to fish Deer Creek. Nothing against Deer Creek or maybe there is, I just have a passion for the Berry. The nice big boat at Strawberry helps as well! And to think sometimes I have the boat all to myself. :mrgreen:. 

Anyhow, the slot limit for the cutt's is working just the way it should. It has taken me a long time, many long hours of hard fishing, LOL, and I don't even want to think about the amount of money I have spent on gas to feed the 150 hp merc, all to be able to find spots that I can go just to catch rainbows so I can enjoy some pancake battered fillets- the best way to eat them. Now most of us know and can attest to the fact that the ratio of fish being released far outway the ratio of fish that are being kept. I actually prefer catch and release, however, when I want to eat some, I know where to go to get some bows to keep. 

With all due respect, I must say that the comment about adding the rainbows to the slot limit is rediculous and would only benefit catch and release fisherman, believe it or not there are a lot of fisherman that like to get their limits which is there choice. Putting the bows in the slot would make it impossible at times for less experienced and experienced fisherman alike to take some fish home. Lastly, to do this so it makes things Easier for people because then they don't have to come face to face with the decision of "IS IT A BOW OR IS IT A CUT" is also REDICULOUS! READ THE 2008 PROCLAMATION, I think it states very clearly what is a rainbow and that the marks under the chin don't mean squat in determining if it's a bow or not. Under rules for specific waters for Strawberry Res. "Slash marks under the jaw should not be used to destinguish Bear Lake Cutthroat trout from rainbow trout at Strawberry". "Slashing is sometimes absent on the cuts and sometimes present on the bows". I could go on with all the other details but if we want to be educated and not have to worry about making the wrong decision then we will all read the proclamation and as others have stated, have one with you at all times. 

I am one of those "city cops with quota", LOL. I can go up to the berry and fish legaly, go off of the proclamation and feel free to keep my bows and a legal cut or two if I want. All I can say is let an officer give me a ticket for keeping a bow because my bows have a slash under their mouths and that is the only reason he or she says it's one of those famous cutbows. I'll invite you all to the court proceedings. If you go off the proclamation you can't go wrong if you take the advise about the fin color for each fish, the pink stripe, and spot patterns, and snout! If you havn't educated yourself enough to figure out if it's a bow or not then turn all fish loose and go fish Tibblefork got small rainbows.

If anyone want's some secret info on an awesome little lake with monster bows located in the high Uintahs that's accessible by vehicle, let me know. Beats any lake in the Uintahs, guaranteed.

Also once the berry's ice is off, if anyone want's to go out on the boat for a day and fish for some bow's and help with gas, lol. Let me know. :shock:


----------



## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Hey I have never heard of using pancake batter for fish. Can you please put the recipe in the recipe section of this forum?


----------



## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

Good post, UintaMan.

And I don't know why everyone seems to have such a hard time finding bows in Strawberry. 80% of the time I go, that's all I can bring in.

Go to the ladders and put a worm on the bottom. They like that area. SC by the cliffs, too.


----------



## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

In his defense I dont think Deadicated1 gets the two confused, we just didnt know the policy on cut-bows. better safe than sorry. Halibut tastes better anyway and no bones!


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

to set the record straight, i do know the difference, i was just trying to make sure i did the right thing by letting a fish go that had any markings of a cutt. there are a lot of guys out there who dont, and i dont want you to think i am one of them. i would like to find out more about that lake in the uintahs, uintaman!!


----------



## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

Deadicated1 did the right thing in my opinion. It would be a far better world if people decided to air on the side of caution rather than not. Hopefully my post as well as some others have been helpfull as far as the regs and policies go. That was an awesome bow that Deadicated1 showed, now next time you guys can feel good about keeping it knowing that the stupid under chin marking means about as much as the mound of Moose crap I fell face first into while elk hunting last year. Don't ask! I'm not saying they don't exist becaues I can't proove it, however, I have never seen a "cut-bow" either by me catching it or anyone else that I know catching one. Maybe I'm off track here but to me it's either a cut or a bow. If for some reason they do exist and there is actually "cut-bows" in Strawberry, well then as far as i'm concerned it's just another cut because we have to treat them the same way anyway. I know that there are many people out there who have contributed to the whole "cut-bow" theory just because the **** rainbow had markings under it's jaw. So everyone dubbed these true bows a stupid "cut-bow". Now everyone in the world second guesses themselves wondering if their fish is the famous, non existent-sometimes existent, hard fighting, teeth slashing, downright rediculous CUT-BOW everyone talks about around these here parts! LOL, Anyone catches a cut-bow during the season let me know, and proove it too me! 

Due to the fact my family is from Alaska I have to agree about halibut being better, not even a question. You forgot about how good fresh cooked salmon is while sitting on the bank of the Kenai or Russian river hoping the grizz's don't come for dinner! I'm actually not much of a trout eater, eccept like I said earlier, I deep fry my fillets in pancake batter! No bones there either.


----------



## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

So do you just dip them in the batter and then into the deep fryer? No seasoning? PM sent.


----------



## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

I'll send you a pm with the info.


----------



## Improv (Sep 8, 2007)

UintaMan said:


> Anyhow, the slot limit for the cutt's is working just the way it should.
> 
> With all due respect, I must say that the comment about adding the rainbows to the slot limit is rediculous and would only benefit catch and release fisherman,


#1 - You are completely wrong if you think that including the rainbows in the slot would only benefits catch and release fisherman and let me tell you why.

#2 - If you think the cutthroat is winning the chub battle, again you are wrong. It's simple math. How many eggs does one female chub lay vs. a female cutthroat? The chub is a partial and intermittent spawner. They do not need nets (or reeds) to spawn. They also don't need running water or good water quality to spawn. The number of eggs produced at any one time is variable and may range from about 300 to 2,700. The reproductive season lasts from April to August, and perhaps longer depending on environmental conditions. The chub has evolved this reproductive strategy (i.e., repetitive spawning during one season and of spreading the spawn over many weeks) as an adaptation to unpredictable environmental changes.

Now&#8230; the cutthroats have very poor natural recruitment. Most of the time the hens will have to be netted and physically stripped of their eggs and the males of their milt and federalized in optimal conditions. So just in terms of numbers - the cutthroat is way behind.

Think of Strawberry as a huge bucket and you can put whatever you want into the bucket, but once the bucket is full you can't add to it. Right now Cutthroats, Rainbows and Konekes fill most of the bucket - but the chubs are not far behind. Once the chub have taken hold again (and they will- it's simple math folks) you can't add more cutthroats to the bucket. The problem cannot be reversed - that is why controlling the chub population is so important.

So&#8230; you can decided if you want to keep the rainbows today and enjoy Strawberry as a trout fishery for maybe 5-10 years or you can think long term and add the rainbows to the slot (which still allows you to keep a couple of fish) and enjoy it as a trout fishery indefinitely.


----------



## Jacksonman (Jan 16, 2008)

Good stuff. Just my two cents. 

Improv - I had heard and was under the impression that the cutt program at strawberry was working perfectly; meaning very few if any smaller chubs making it past one or two years of age and only the older larger chubs still around in numbers. Not any sort of personal observation or claim but what I have read and heard from those that perform the studies.

Uintaman - I caught one fish at CCW that I swore was a cutt-bow. I didn't bring my camera and was upset that I didn't. I too pass up DC about 20-25 times a year for the berry although I have stopped at DC a few times. So I have fished the berry a lot over the past 5 years and have caught cutt-bows up at Henrys. The fish had obvious cutt pattern spotting, but the spots were more rainbow like and the overall body shape and coloring just seemed more rainbow to me. When you catch enough cutts at the berry, you know when one just stands out out of the ordinary. That was my impression and nothing more. I also saw a picture of a hog caught at the Ladder's this fall (I think on another forum) that I could swear was also a cutt-bow. But who knows - I just enjoy the challenge of identification.

About the slot thing, I for one would be for it, but I am mostly a catch and release type of guy. It seems that there are plenty of lakes to catch and keep, so I say the more trphy fisheries the better. Certain lakes should be classified as trophy lakes with very strict regulations. I for one wouldn't complain if the slot limited included rainbows and was raised to 24 or 26"s. I hope this opinioin doesn't cause too much backlash. It is just my opinion.


----------



## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

Ok, so if adding the rainbows to the slot is the answer, why wasn't this done by the EXPERTS who made the decision for the cut slot? Again with all due respect, just because you throw out all these numbers and believe in your mind that you are right and have this agenda to have things your way, it doesn't mean you are right! Like the rest of us, it's just an opinion! I hate the stupid chubs as much as the next person, get used to the fact that there are going to be a number of chubs in the lake! Are you assuming that by adding the rainbows to the slot, all chubs are going to be exterminated or just managed better? This is an honest question! What are your specific qualifications that have led you to the position that adding the rainbow to the slot is the only viable answer and solution for managing the chubs? Do the simple math like you told me to do. How many estimated cuts are in Strawberry as well as added every time they stock it compared to the amount of rainbows? It does not make sense to treat an inferior species the same way as the most dominant one. That's simple math as well! As in everything the power is in the numbers! The cuts have the numbers by far! Keep the slot the way it is! Some EXPERTS say the chubs are being managed as good as can be expected! Your obviously an EXPERT as well though so I guess we'll see what happens. :mrgreen: 

Bring on open water!


----------



## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

One other thing I'd like to add, if the goal is to have more larger cuts in the lake to feed on the larger chubs, why does the cut slot end at 22" It's not that hard for people to catch at least one cut keeper over 22" if you add all those up that are being taken that can be a lot of large cuts. I have no problem with having to release all cuts period! Is that not another option? Anyway we all obviously love Strawberry and are very passionate about as I say my home away from home. Even with the problems that come with managing the fish in Strawberry, it's a great problem to have. We could be fighting about the fish population and different methods of fishing Utah Lake as well as it's management! :roll:


----------



## Caddis36 (Oct 26, 2007)

Why don't you talk to most of general public fishing strawberry with kids, they do not want to throw back any fish, and adding more regulations to the berry will only decline its fishing pressure more, the people on this forum are not the people that have a hard time throwing fish back, I am not saying that, but at strawberry most of the people that fish it want to keep fish and that is why the regulations are the way they are, Biologist have to keep the General fishing public happy, just not the guys of these types of forum that would not keep any cutthroat. Cutthoat were never meant to get rid of Chubs. THere will always be chubs, this is just a good way to try to control them. and it is working ASK THE BIOLOGIST to show his data will galdly do so.


----------



## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Aggreed so lets just all get along because we have little control over what the DWR does. Besides Utahlake :roll: they are doing a great job. My average sized fish at the berry is about 4 inches bigger than a couple of years ago. Imagine if that were the case at all lakes in the state, especialy the Uintas. 

OH and Welcome to the forum Jacksonman. I have enjoyed your posts on other forums so im glad to see ya here. 

DId you get my PM Uintaman?


----------



## iceicebaby (Dec 17, 2007)

I really wish I had a close-up of this fish but this is the best I got. I think this is what people are referring to when they see a cut-bow.
There are spots all over that back and up on the head too. The snout on that thing looks like a bow. Nice pink stripe on the side.
The fins are darker and more of a orange color and it did have slits on the throat.
I caught this 3 years ago ice fishing at the berry.
Pretty fish it was and it went back in.
I dunno what kind it was, didn't care, because I hate the taste of trout! But I sure do love to fish!
[attachment=0:w5jw1rs3]Brandon and Nathan.JPG[/attachment:w5jw1rs3]


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Just another thought on the trout that eat the chubs- What is the average sized chub in Strawberry? My guess would be somewhere around 3-5 inches. There are many that are larger, and many more that are even smaller. If this is the case, it seems to me that any trout in the lake over ten inches, rainbow or cutthroat, would be able to eat most chubs. Some of you guys have mentioned in this thread, and previous ones, that some of the real bruiser cutts that have been caught in the Berry barffed up chubs and other trout up to 8-10 inches long. I am sure this doesn't happen very often, but just think about all the smaller fish that are consumed on any given day by a slot sized cutt! And that's just the slot cutts. I am sure the smaller ones, as well as the bows, will eat the smaller chubs they come across. 

So even if the chubs spawn like crazy, and produce shloads of offspring, you gotta figure that a hungry cutt will consume hundreds or conceivably thousands in a year's time, and the smaller trout will eat them also. So even if one adult chub of say, ten inches (likely too big to be eaten) produces a thousand fry in a year, it may only take one or two cutts to decimate this chub's fry in that year. Which brings us to the subject of the chub thread I started- when you catch a chub, kill it, and return it to the depths. One less adult chub= a thousand less fry in a year. So here's another question for y'all- If everyone killed every chub they caught, would this pose a problem as far as food supply goes for cutthroats? If the chubs were all but exterminated from Strawberry, would we still catch the size of fish that we currently do?


----------



## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

Iceicebaby,

Nothing wrong with catch and release, that's what I usually do. Enjoying fishing is what it's all about. I have only ice fished once in my life, I hate the snow! Maybe I have lost my freaking mind, lol, however, In my opinion you prooved one of my points with that great picture of that awesome RAINBOW no cut-bow about it, again just my opinion. We all know what opinions are like. :mrgreen:


----------



## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

ChaserOfAllBirds,

The only thing I have to say about your post is, GREAT POST MAN!


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

A few things: 
1) Trout usually don't start feeding on forage fish until they reach sizes around 18 inches in length (and even then, many never switch from a diet of invertebrates to forage fish). The big reason for the slot limit at Strawberry is to assure a good number of fish are reaching sizes where they can prey on chubs. The biggest problem with waters that do have chubs is that chubs directly compete with small trout for available plankton and invertebrates...in these competitive situations, the small trout generally lose and are outcompeted. Small trout will probably not feed on chubs to any extent that will be detrimental to chubs.

2) Bear Lake cutthroat trout are more piscivorous than rainbow trout and are more likely to become fish-eaters...this is why these fish have been stocked into Strawberry. However, large rainbow trout will often become fish-eaters and do feed on chubs. It seems ridiculous from a biological standpoint that the DWR has a slot limit for cutts and not rainbows. Similar regulations are in place at Panguitch Lake for the same reasons as on Strawberry, yet the slot limit is in place to protect all trout...not just cutts. The DWR is definitely playing a PR game with the hook-em and cook-em crowd.

3) The DWR is trying to manage Strawberry so that trout stay ahead of chubs in terms of numbers...if trout do not prey on enough chubs to keep their numbers in check, the reservoir will crash and the biomass of trout vs. chubs will flip-flop and trout fishing will go to pot. Right now, the trout are doing their job of keeping chubs in check...although DWR studies are showing that trout are taking care of the younger age classes of chubs, I still believe that they should err on the side of caution and protect rainbows as well. Such protection can only help maintain the great fishing.

4) One thing fishermen should NOT be concerned about is whether the trout will wipe out the chubs to the point that they lose food. In all actuality, the trout would do much BETTER without chubs at all. By eliminating the chubs, trout growth would increase because more plankton/macroinvertebrates/bugs would be available to trout. People often incorrectly assume that big fish can only be found where prey species are found...however, in a big fertile system, trout would grow just as large without the chubs. 

5) Joe's Valley is a great example of what can happen when chubs get ahead of the game...right now Joe's Valley has a good number of trophy-sized splake (8+ pounds); however, the growth rate of splake is so slow because of competition with chubs that fish have a very difficult time reaching sizes where they can prey on chubs. In fact, attempts at stocking tiger trout and cutthroat trout in the past have not been successfull because these fish never seem to reach sizes where they can utilize their prey base. So, what happens at such a lake is this: you end up getting lots and lots of skinny unhealthy trout, even more chubs, and a relatively small number of trophy fish. Growth rates for trout are incredibly slow for stocked trout and the trophy trout can't eat enough chubs to dent populations.


----------



## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

That is some good info. I have seen strawberry do all the flip flopping and have been nervous that the next cycle will be that all the chubs are gone and the trout will crash again. I guess I never realized what a fertile lake to berry is and that the fish will simply change food sources. Do you think that once all the Cutts eat the chubs will they eat their own young? The Bear Lake Cutts are, like you said, very piscivores.


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

> The Bear Lake Cutts are, like you said, very piscivores


honestly people, please, can we keep the words to 2 syllables or less so i can keep up?


----------



## Improv (Sep 8, 2007)

Wyoming2Utah - As always your insight and comments are always appreciated. 

Oh… and by the way, you all might want to do a little research on Wyoming2Utah before you assume that he is just another catch and release fanatic that doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
:wink:


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't think the cutts/trout will EVER eat all of the chubs...but, I do think the cutts will and are eating their own kind. The cutts and large bows are already feeding on other trout...


----------



## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

*Cutts*

"Piscivorous" in reference to cutts in Strawberry means:

For every 3" of length, the trout will fight as hard as 1" of length at any other reservoir.

Hence a 24" piscivourous Strawberry cutthroat will behave like an 8" planter rainbow anywhere else when attached to the end of a fishing line.

*Used in a Sentence*
Is that sphagnum on the end of my line or a twenty-four inch piscivourous chub-O-matic?


----------



## fishduck (Apr 12, 2008)

I catch some where around 4-8 chubbs a year at strawberry and just gut them and throw them back over the old pontoon. How many do you all catch a year? And hasn't the berry only flipped once in the past 15 years or something?


----------



## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

Hey, leave my babies alone! :lol: 

I must get all the good ones because I'm rarely disappointed with the fight of a cutt at Strawberry. Honestly.

I know it's "cool" to think they suck, but even a 17 inch cutt really bends my rod and gives me a good tug until I bring them up.

The most dissatisfying fight I've had at Strawberry from a fish over 16 inches was a fat bow from the ladders of about 17 inches. It practically swam to the shore for me and flopped up on the bank. I wondered if I still had it until it surfaced right next to the bank.

I'm sure there are some lame cutts in there too, but I really haven't found many of them to be slacking.

But a good 20 inch bow or tiger from Scofield will out fight most fish in Strawberry, I think.

On the topic, I'd hate to see the slot increased or spread to rainbows at Strawberry. Mostly for selfish reasons, but what can I say? My favorite tasting trout is a big cutt from the berry. They're simply delicious. Making it harder for me to keep one (I only got 1 worthy of the stringer last year) would really bug me. I know that doesn't mean jack from a biologist's standpoint, but from somewhat of a "hook'em and cook'em" type, it stinks. JMO


----------



## orvis1.2 (Apr 15, 2008)

I wouldn't mind if the slot were increased AND rainbows were included. We could have one of the best trophy fisheries around if the slot were upped to 26". IMHO.


----------



## Poo Pie (Nov 23, 2007)

Orvis1.2?- that's going to get confusing  
welcome aboard.


----------



## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

Yeah, we already have an "orvis1" and he posts a lot. Welcome anyway.


----------



## rapalahunter (Oct 13, 2007)

orvis1.2 said:


> I wouldn't mind if the slot were increased AND rainbows were included. We could have one of the best trophy fisheries around if the slot were upped to 26". IMHO.


Are you for real, or trying to be funny? orvis1.2?!?! Had me laughing regardless! :lol:


----------



## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

I know this is an old post but this stuff I just bolded is what makes it hard for me to ever go by the procs defenition of a cutt because the fish cop will always go by the easy defintion of: any trout with cutthroat markings is considered a cutthroat.

STRAWBERRY RESERVOIR: (May 1) Ice fishing is not recommended. A recently drilled hole showed several layers of bad ice, slush, water, etc. Only about six to eight inches of the ice was considered somewhat solid but there are several cracks on the ice surface, a lot of slush in places and water level is rising which provides unsafe conditions around the edges. Though yesterday's storm froze up the edges a bit, warmer weather can make ice weak in a short amount of time. A little bit of open water at the ladders and Indian Creek. DWR biologist Justin Robinson guesstimates another two to three weeks before ice off, depending on weather and wind. Regulations for the reservoir include an aggregate limit of four trout or kokanee salmon. No more than two of which may be cutthroat trout under 15 inches and no more than one may be a cutthroat over 22 inches long. All cutthroat between 15 and 22 inches must be immediately released (*any trout with cutthroat markings is considered a cutthroat*). Don't feel compelled to harvest fish on every trip. Please do your part to ensure the future of this heavily utilized fishery by voluntarily releasing fish!

This article was located on the Utah Wildlife Website!


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

It says the same thing in the proc. Just read all the info on the subject carefully, and review the things that were posted on this thread earlier. The main point I was trying to make is that a slash, cut, or any color on the jaw doesn't automatically qualify it as a cutthroat. It says right in the proc that rainbows can have a "cut" on their jaws.

For example:
[attachment=0:16l5aya0]scofield bow.JPG[/attachment:16l5aya0]


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Although this fish has some color under its jaw, it has all the other characteristics of a rainbow, including white tips on its fins, the classic pink hue around its lateral line, and the typical spot patterns. 

Bottom line is, if you aren't sure if the fish is a cutt or not, and it's within the slot, release the fish! Don't chance it, there are more fish to catch. Not only that, but what will it hurt to put him back to catch another day?


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

we can see your point, chaser, but the point that still isnt proven to me and deadicatedweim is this- the part bolded in that article, and in the proc says any fish with cutt markings must be released. your fish is obviously a rainbow, and so was mine that started this whole thread, but they both had a mark that a cutt has, so by law they must be released. the confusing part is they say a rainbow can have those marks, which means it is a true rainbow, but also it has cutt marks, so it must be released. its not consistent, and it basically contradicts itself


----------



## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Ok now I see your point. I guess that's where you just have to use your best judgment. There was another thread discussing limits that I found to be a bit sticky, in regards to continuing to fish after harvesting a limit. Unfortunately, there are many laws that aren't exactly cut and dried in their wording. I guess until there is a clarification, you use your best judgment, and obey the laws to the best of your understanding. If anyone ever gets stopped and ticketed on this subject, I would certainly like to hear about it. I honestly think that in many of these cases, if a CO actually gave you a ticket after pleading your case and showing them the proclamation, I believe you could get out of it in front of a judge. Call me ignorant, ****y, whatever, but I think if you did things right, you wouldn't have any problems.


----------



## UintaMan (Sep 16, 2007)

deadicated1 said:


> we can see your point, chaser, but the point that still isnt proven to me and deadicatedweim is this- the part bolded in that article, and in the proc says any fish with cutt markings must be released. your fish is obviously a rainbow, and so was mine that started this whole thread, but they both had a mark that a cutt has, so by law they must be released. the confusing part is they say a rainbow can have those marks, which means it is a true rainbow, but also it has cutt marks, so it must be released. its not consistent, and it basically contradicts itself


The thing that I go off of on this topic is another statement in this years fishing proc. "Slash marks under the jaw are not reliable characteristics to destinguish bear lake cutthroat trout from rainbow trout, particularly in flat-water(reservoir or lake) environments. Bear lake cutthroat trout often lack the bright crimson jaw slash", therefore voiding the whole slash mark characteristic. So by law any officer worth their salt will know that a ticket can not and should not be issued to anyone being in possession of a rainbow trout that has slash marks under it's jaw, the slash means nothing when deciding what type of fish it is! If something may or may not be there it can't be a reliable characteristic therefore voiding it!

I think people are making this a lot harder than it needs to be for some reason!


----------



## deadicated1 (Mar 17, 2008)

i just wanted to get it right. thanks uintahman, that explains exactly whan my questions and concerns have been.


----------

