# Message Sent?



## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Do you feel a message was sent to the Utes on Saturday? Something to the effect: Even our mediocre ND teams are capable of beating an 8-1 Utah team. Maybe a medicre USC team or mediocre Arizona team is still capable of beating an 8-0 or 8-1 MWC team. I'm thinking TCU is right---Utah and BYU should have stayed in a conference where they can compete. These 47-7 and 28-3 beat downs do not look impressive at all. Oh well, 5-6 seasons by both teams can be rectified by keeping the rivalry game going and placeing all the sucess for a season on that game. :^8^:


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Actually I don't think this was a message sent. ND just needs to win and they could care less that the Utes are going to the PAC-10. You are stretching to say the least. The Utes are sucking it up right now and I have no idea why. The way they are playing right now they will get beat down in the PAC-10, but this is not the same Utes team from the first of the year. They are mentally out of it for some reason, 10 penalties in the first half, that is pathetic. BYU is a young team, they will get better. These last two games were confidence builders.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

I think they are the same team that started the season. I think the cakewalk schedule hurt them. I think a pesky AFA team exposed some weakness and more importantly, put some questions in the players heads. Running over some weak teams in the first of the season and getting over ranked by the media has definetely put visions of greatness in the players heads. A squeaky win over Air Force and a beat down by TCU are real head-game wake up calls. To go out against a mediocre ND team and stink it up either shows the Utes were never as good as they thought or the fact I tried to point out that MWC teams still struggle against the middle of the PAC other conferences.


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## orvis1 (Sep 7, 2007)

You obviously have not watched the Irish like I have this season. They have played a tough schedule and played multiple ranked teams this year, (can anyone say last second fake FG in OT for Michigan State)although Utah was the first they beat. Utah gave up after losing badly to TCU no bcs no mountain west conference title if they win or lose the next couple games they end up in the second tier pre new-years day bowl game. Either way they are thinking of recruiting and next year in the pac 10 right now.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

HighNDry said:


> I think they are the same team that started the season. I think the cakewalk schedule hurt them.


I agree with this. I don't think a message was sent by ND, but I will say this is the same team that has played all season long and I'll chalk this up to a severe beatdown hangover from the TCU game when hopes were so high. AF exposed their D and TCU/ND took advantage. The first half of the season was crap... because thats who they played. Shame on the voters for buying into that "we smoked everyone we played" nonsense.... they didn't play ANYONE. That being said, I think they're a good team still... its only two losses and if they win out, then its still a pretty good season by most teams standards. Will it get worse before it gets better (another 04 or 08 year)? Absolutely.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I know its a REAAAAAALLLLLLLLLY big stretch to consider right now - but utah and BYU COULD finish with the same record. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> I know its a REAAAAAALLLLLLLLLY big stretch to consider right now - but utah and BYU COULD finish with the same record. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.


If you count bowl games, then you are correct.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Couple of pretty equal MWC teams right there!


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Utah didn't get the invitation from the Pac 10 for their play THIS year. They got it for their consistent play over the past 5-6 years. In that time, Utah has (by FAR) been the best (as in consistently, not necessarily EVERY year) team in the MWC. 2 trips to BCS bowls, and winning seasons all along. Not to mention whipping the Pac 10 teams they have faced during that time. As far as conference expansion goes, they were the best fit. Will they have tough seasons along the way? OF COURSE. Every team does. But they WILL get even better. Its just a matter of time.

As far as BYU goes, they have been consistently good. But IMO, that isn't why they chose to leave the MWC. Fiscally, leaving was the right choice. The MWC was a fetter for them. Just holding them down. I believe they can get better, but I'm not convinced that going independent will be the reason why they get better. 

So as far as a message? No, I don't think ND was looking to send a message. They needed a win, regardless of the opponent, and they did what they had to do get it. IMO, Jordan Wynn is the problem with the Utes right now. He lost all confidence in the TCU game. Shoot, I think he doubted himself after the close win over AF, and TCU was the straw to break the camel's back for him. I sure wish Whitt would have put Cain in to play TCU early. I think it would have made a difference. I still think it would make a difference, but he says he won't do it.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Utah didn't get the invitation from the Pac 10 for their play. Period. This year, or any year. I'm tired of hearing that one. Remember, the Pac 10 invited Colorado FIRST. Utah was the 7th choice. They eventually got the invite because no other school west of the Missouri River either would accept the invite (Texas, Oklahoma, T A&M, etc...) or fit the criteria (non-religious research school.). Don't get me wrong - the move is great for Utah and they'll do well - I am excited for them to have a quality schedule instead of the crap they, and BYU have been stuck playing in the MWC. But know that performance the past several years had NOTHING to do with it. 

BYU is leaving the MWC because the MTN sucks and they'll make more money and get better exposure on their own.

As for messege - Notre Dame is just trying to win some games. You are exactly on with that one Chaser. As for Wynn vs. Cain - Utah would have beat BYU last year had Cain played. And right now, if Wynn plays in the rivalry game, I'm not sure BYU won't win again. If Cain plays, BYU WILL NOT WIN that game. Period.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Utah didn't get the invitation from the Pac 10 for their play. Period. This year, or any year. I'm tired of hearing that one. Remember, the Pac 10 invited Colorado FIRST. Utah was the 7th choice. They eventually got the invite because no other school west of the Missouri River either would accept the invite (Texas, Oklahoma, T A&M, etc...) or fit the criteria (non-religious research school.). Don't get me wrong - the move is great for Utah and they'll do well - I am excited for them to have a quality schedule instead of the crap they, and BYU have been stuck playing in the MWC. But know that performance the past several years had NOTHING to do with it.


I see what you're saying, but riddle me this: Would they have gotten the invite if they sucked? Was the invitation solely a result of merit on the field? Heck no. I don't believe that for a second. But you have to say it had a lot to do with it. The other criteria solidified the U as a good match for what the Pac 10 wanted, but there is no way they would have given them an invitation if they were awful on the field, simply because they needed another school to join their party.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Yes, they would have gotten the invitation is they sucked. As I said, they invited Colorado, and they REALLY suck. Play had nothing to do with it. If it was play, then Colorado NEVER would have been invited. But they brought a new TV market, and by adding two teams, the Pac-10 gets a championship game, which will make all the schools another $10 million/year. Again, I think its great for the U. Really great! 

The Pac-10 didn't need to do anything to improve their reputation - it is already great. The expansion gives them the two biggest TV markets in the western United States that they didn't already have. 

If quality of football team had anything to do with it, they would have taken BSU over Colorado.


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

GaryFish said:


> I know its a REAAAAAALLLLLLLLLY big stretch to consider right now - but utah and BYU COULD finish with the same record. Probable? No. Possible? Yes.


If Utah loses this weekend to SDSU, and BYU beats New Mexico then they will enter the rivalry week with the same conference record of 5-2, and tied for 3rd place with BYU. Instead of playing for a MWC championship and BCS bowl berth, as Ute fans have been predicting all season, they will be playing for 3rd place and an Armed Forces Bowl berth.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

You really have your panties in a bunch, don't you mm73? Every thread you post on is just another axe grind. Get over it man. Most of us Ute fans have. We thought the team was better than they are, and got schooled by TCU...so what? It happens. Not every year can be a BCS run. What kind of fans would we be if we DIDN'T tout our team as the best? What's the point in rooting for them if we don't think we can win? It just so happened that this year wasn't on par with what we had hoped. There's always next year! Quit being so down on your Cougs that you constantly slam the Utes. Again, unless your team wins on the 27th, you still have nothing to brag about.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

GaryFish said:


> Utah didn't get the invitation from the Pac 10 for their play. Period. This year, or any year. I'm tired of hearing that one. Remember, the Pac 10 invited Colorado FIRST. Utah was the 7th choice.


Saying Utah was the "7th" choice is ignoring how the past summer went down and unfairly makes the U sound like some sort of a leftover. Just as a historical reminder, initially, it was reported that the original plan was to admit Colorado and the U, which ultimately happened. However, Larry Scott, the Pac-10 commish, got wind of a chance to lure away TEXAS (and to a lesser extent, Oklahoma) and decided to go for it. To pull it off, they needed to add some of TU's buddies, thus the 6 members of the Big-12. Considering that Texas is probably the biggest prize by far in all of the conference realignment sweepstakes, yeah, the U is nothing compared to them, but jealous cougarfan, so is the Y and everyone else. As the plan progressed, it then looked like Texas A&M was going to bolt to the SEC which would have meant that the U would have been let in anyway. (that would have been good) Then Texas stayed in the big-12 and things ended as they did. The U was admitted because it is a good academic and research match, has well rounded athletic programs, offered access to a good and growing (but not great) TV market and fit in "socially" (secular school) to the other PAC-10 schools.

BYU had no shot at the PAC-10. They could have won 3 straight BCS bowl games and they wouldn't have been admitted. BYU's mission as an institution does not fit in socially and academically to what the liberal schools of the PAC-10 were looking for. If that upsets you, get over it. If you are LDS, would you really want the Y to change, just to improve the sports programs? You guys will be fine athletically as well. It will suck for a couple of years as you watch a steady diet of New Mexico St. and Idaho come through, but independence will get better over time. You may get into the Big-12 eventually as well.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not sure mm73 said anything inflamatory there. He is correct. He didn't slam the utes, belittle them, or anything. I think the rivalry is shaping up pretty interesting at this point. I think the Utah-SDSU game is a whole lot more interesting than anyone would have predicted at the beginning of the year. Rocky Long, the DC at SDSU is one of the best defensive coaches in the conference - maybe THE best. And the SDSU offense has the best running back and two best wide outs in the MWC as well. Then again, the two RBs at Utah are very good in their own right. I've said since the beginning of the year - I think Utah's biggest weakness is the defensive secondary which could really hurt them with those two big NFL quality receivers. It is clearly more interesting than the BYU-New Mexico game. Aren't we all glad that we don't have to watch BYU or Utah play the likes of New Mexico, Wyoming, UNLV any more? 

Chaser - I'm interested in your take on what the utes need to do to win this week. Personally, if they win the game, it will be on the legs of Asiata/Wide, and the short passing game. I think they will have to score often, as I think it will take 40 points to beat SDSU this week. How are you seeing things? 

(BTW- Though I'm a CougarFan, I'd much rather talk about a good game than what we'll see in Provo so bear with me on this one. )


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Catherder, you bring up some excellent points, and I really don't refute them. You are absolutely correct - BYU was never in the running. When they do land in a conference, it will be the Big 12. No biggie. And you are also correct - I'd rather see BYU stay true to their mission as a religious school, than give that away for better football opponents. So yea, I'd agree with pretty much everything you wrote. 

And I have to tell you, that next year when I'm watching Montana State come to Provo and U are playing Oregon, I'll be quite annoyed.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Kind of off subject, but I totally disagree with Gary on Cain being better than Wynn. He is a good quarterback, but there is obviously reasons he isn't starting and Wynn is.


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

Chaser said:


> You really have your panties in a bunch, don't you mm73? Every thread you post on is just another axe grind. Get over it man. Most of us Ute fans have. We thought the team was better than they are, and got schooled by TCU...so what? It happens. Not every year can be a BCS run. What kind of fans would we be if we DIDN'T tout our team as the best? What's the point in rooting for them if we don't think we can win? It just so happened that this year wasn't on par with what we had hoped. There's always next year! Quit being so down on your Cougs that you constantly slam the Utes. Again, unless your team wins on the 27th, you still have nothing to brag about.


Dude, which one of us has his panties in a bunch? I have not made one single statement to brag about BYU. All I did was point out the fact that, despite their 8-2 record, the Utes don't have much more to play for this season now than the Cougars do. Sorry if that gets under your skin so much. You obviously are still trying to come to terms with that.


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

GaryFish said:


> Catherder, you bring up some excellent points, and I really don't refute them. You are absolutely correct - BYU was never in the running. When they do land in a conference, it will be the Big 12. No biggie. And you are also correct - I'd rather see BYU stay true to their mission as a religious school, than give that away for better football opponents. So yea, I'd agree with pretty much everything you wrote.


I think the Big 12 ship has sailed for BYU. Even if the Big 12 did finally come calling some day, I think BYU would be obligated to turn down the invitation now that they have gone independent in football, and joined the WCC in all other sports. The WCC is a league that has not changed in 30 years since it added Gonzaga and UC San Diego, and it would look REALLY BAD if BYU were to join that league for a few years, and then bolt once something better came along. Keep in mind that the WCC is comprised entirely of private religious schools and I don't think the BYU board of directors (otherwise known as the GA's) would want to alienate other faiths that it has tried very hard to form a faith-based coalition with in a part of the country that is so important to the LDS church. I have tried really hard to read between the lines with this whole football independence thing and one of the conclusions that I have come to is that BYU has finally come to terms with the realization that they are not going to be invited to join a BCS conference, so their next best option is to go indie. I think they would have just stayed put in the MWC for a few more years if they thought the Big 12 was eventually going to invite them.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

I think BYU football will have a great record beating on teams like Idaho, New Mexico State and such. They may have 10-1 or 11-1 seasons and then get killed in a bowl game just like they did in the old WAC. But hey, Happy Valley was really happy and happiness is nice.

The real instate rivalry will be Weber and SUU. SWEET!


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> If quality of football team had anything to do with it, they would have taken BSU over Colorado.


True... if they were looking to take quality teams, Colorado wouldn't have been anywhere near what they were looking for. Maybe Washington State wanted some company...? :lol:


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

mm73 said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> > Catherder, you bring up some excellent points, and I really don't refute them. You are absolutely correct - BYU was never in the running. When they do land in a conference, it will be the Big 12. No biggie. And you are also correct - I'd rather see BYU stay true to their mission as a religious school, than give that away for better football opponents. So yea, I'd agree with pretty much everything you wrote.
> ...


You may be right, but I do think that the Y would look long and hard at a Big-12 invite because it offers one thing that the Y would love to have and indie doesn't provide, BCS access. And with most "experts" indicating that the conference shuffle is far from over, it would seem that the possibility remains strong that the Y could receive that invite. One thing for sure, it will give us a lot to talk about on message boards for years to come. 

Back to the Utes this weekend, the 3 keys will be; 1) if the Utes can put pressure on the SDSU QB and prevent him from having time to hit his WR,s and gash our secondary as TCU, Air Force, and ND did, 2) if the U can get better QB play and get the moribund short and intermediate passing game going again to balance our running game, and 3) recover mentally from the shell shock of the past two weeks. I suspect #3 will actually be the hardest for them to overcome. Should be a good game.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Chaser - I'm interested in your take on what the utes need to do to win this week. Personally, if they win the game, it will be on the legs of Asiata/Wide, and the short passing game. I think they will have to score often, as I think it will take 40 points to beat SDSU this week. How are you seeing things?


Since the Utes are on a 2 game skid, this game will be tough. SDSU has a good program (by MWC standards), and they're gonna give the Utes everything they've got. Having lost 2 games, SDSU and BYU are salivating waiting for their chance to add to the losses. The Utes seem, and are, beatable by anyone at this time in the eyes of their opponents. Before week 8, I'm not so sure the rest of the conference looked at it that way, with the exception of TCU. Soooo, with that in mind, the mental factor is going to play huge for both teams.

IMO, there are 2 big things that need to happen to win:

1-Jordan Wynn needs to pull up his big boy pants and play a half-decent game this week. No turnovers, few incomplete passes, and no getting sacked. (that's on the O-line) Any of these errors will crush his fragile ego and leave him with no confidence, causing more of the aforementioned problems. He does not play well without confidence, and has shown he can't be his own spark. Last week in South Bend he threw away so many passes that could have been 12-15 yard completions to 3 different receivers, and on 3rd down, when it was needed most. He threw some INTs, and made him second guess his ability to get the ball to Shaky, Brooks, and Christopher. Those guys are very capable, so long as it is thrown their direction.

2-THE SECONDARY (or whatever remnant we have of one). These guys cannot make the same mistakes they have all season, which is a lot to ask. Big plays have crushed the will of the Utes this year. They have to make stops, and get some interceptions, and more importantly, tackle effectively once a runner/receiver is on their turf. They have let too many plays go that should have been stopped. This is, IMO, the BIGGEST weakness in the whole team.

Fix those two issues, and I think they've got it in the bag. Again, a lot to ask. As far as the running game goes, Wide and Asiata are going to get their yards. They'll get more if Wynn can make some decent passes and spread out the defense a bit.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

If you could put four Blechens in the secondary, that would fix things... that kid is a stud. Their corners aren't real great and the other safety isn't anything to write home about either. You remember the Rob Morris train whistle? They need to get a barf sound or a sucking wind sound for every time Blechen shows up knocking somebody's guts out.... he hits people and the ground is just littered with bodies. It makes me a laugh when he crushes somebody, truly fantastic.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Apparently he hits guys so hard he breaks his own bones. Or was it just a sprain/strain of some sort? Anywho, he was in a cast a couple weeks ago. I'm excited to see how he does the next couple years, if we are so lucky to keep him around.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRyl-rnz ... re=related

Thats just his recruiting video.... I'll see if I can find more. I just sat here and chuckled.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> If you could put four Blechens in the secondary, that would fix things... that kid is a stud. Their corners aren't real great and the other safety isn't anything to write home about either. You remember the Rob Morris train whistle? They need to get a barf sound or a sucking wind sound for every time Blechen shows up knocking somebody's guts out.... he hits people and the ground is just littered with bodies. It makes me a laugh when he crushes somebody, truly fantastic.


He is good, but Brandon Burton is the best corner on the team and more than likely NFL bound next year.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Blechen is a safety, not a corner and yeah, his coverage skill is a little lacking but if he's around when you have the ball, more than likely, you're going down and its going to leave a mark.... and I've heard Burton is supposed to be a shutdown corner and all of that. Watching the games this year... I honestly don't think Utah has a "shutdown" corner. They certainly haven't lived up to the hype if they're supposed to be NFL talent. Here is a clip that shows some of the Burton "lights"... its up to you whether you consider them high or low lights. I love the shot of Pitt by the goal line. The running back gets stuffed by Blechen and company but you can see Burton getting "pancake blocked" in the background. :lol: He also is the guy getting torched by the double move in this video.... I'm sure he's a good back... but he didn't do much at all against Pitt apparently and didn't get his first interception until they played Iowa State.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> Blechen is a safety, not a corner and yeah, his coverage skill is a little lacking but if he's around when you have the ball, more than likely, you're going down and its going to leave a mark.... and I've heard Burton is supposed to be a shutdown corner and all of that. Watching the games this year... I honestly don't think Utah has a "shutdown" corner. They certainly haven't lived up to the hype if they're supposed to be NFL talent. Here is a clip that shows some of the Burton "lights"... its up to you whether you consider them high or low lights. I love the shot of Pitt by the goal line. The running back gets stuffed by Blechen and company but you can see Burton getting "pancake blocked" in the background. :lol: He also is the guy getting torched by the double move in this video.... I'm sure he's a good back... but he didn't do much at all against Pitt apparently and didn't get his first interception until they played Iowa State.


I didn't think he looked to good against TCU, but he is still a NFL quality CB. The way my friend hyped him up and all the radio guys I though he would be amazing, but he got burned at least once biting on the double move. He seems a little small also.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

jahan said:


> I didn't think he looked to good against TCU, but he is still a NFL quality CB. The way my friend hyped him up and all the radio guys I though he would be amazing, but he got burned at least once biting on the double move. He seems a little small also.


There was a lot of that going on in our little tailgate group too with all the hype and talk about how great some of the players were before they really even got into their season.... I actually do feel bad for those guys and still haven't heard from one of my best friends since I admitted I thought TCU would own Utah and it has since happened. He's pretty ticked off, upset, depressed or something about it I guess because I wasn't going to show up and act like Utah had a chance. They actually went back for the Notre Dame game.... and I haven't heard a peep about their trip. If things don't change, i might actually have a couple BYU game tickets for sale.... I don't know that I've ever seen anyone take college football this seriously and I'm not at all sure I want to be a part of it. :?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Dude, that just sucks right there. What I don't get, is sure, the utes have had some great runs in recent years. But in between those great years, they have lost 3, 4, 5 games. To be a college football fan, you should understand that not every year will be a Sugar Bowl run. Heck, look at Florida and Texas right now - two of the biggest and baddest boys in college football. Even utefan should know that. Undefeated seasons don't happen very often. In all the years they've played, utah has 2 and BYU 1. Heck, 10 win seasons are hard enough - the utes only have 4 in all their history, BYU a few more, but still. No matter what program you follow - those things are rare and in EVERY program, are the exception, not the rule. 

And RiverRatt - there is room at my tailgate parties in Provo if you ever want to come. You'll have to bring your own beer, but I make some great tailgate food on the old camp chef. :EAT: :\Ou:


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