# 140 grain ??



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Looking at 7mmo8 

My thinking is 140 grain is a great deer cartridge to 500 yards. Am I wrong? I was actually looking at the hornady 139 grain sst in 7mmo8

If I were to build that rifle for mule deer and ocasional spike\cow elk to 250 yards what twist rate and length barrel would you build it at. 

I want a rifle capable of sub .5" groups at a hundred yards. Meaning if my bullet selection is good I want to build a rifle around the bullet. Maybe that's bass acquards thinking. Idk

Splain it to this bow hunter


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Always go with as long of barrel as you can get, I prefer 26" tubes. Most sporters are 22 or 24" but its that full 26 that makes'em shine.

Anywho at 500 yards you will have the energy but quite the drop.

Pointblank @ huntingnut.com









-DallanC


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Bought a 7mm-08 for my son this year, but he didn't draw any tags to use it. I'm working up some loads now and will probably use it for my antelope tag in WY. 

Started with Nosler BT Hunting 120 gr bullets. The 120's specifically have a thicker wall and are tougher then other BT Hunting bullets so I am told. They shoot pretty well. I'm now thinking 140's as well. Bought a box of Nosler Accubonds in 140 gr. Others have said perform was very good as an all around 7mm-08 bullet for deer and elk at closer ranges. Hope to get to the range this week to work on the 140's. Same thought process in that I'd like to load the 140's and be done.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

So would the 6.5 creedmore be better long distance choice on deer with occasional close elk thrown in?

If this gun didn't have to do double duty for my kids I'd go 300 wsm

What would you go with if you were in my shoes? What would you build?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

gdog said:


> Bought a 7mm-08 for my son this year, but he didn't draw any tags to use it. I'm working up some loads now and will probably use it for my antelope tag in WY.
> 
> Started with Nosler BT Hunting 120 gr bullets. The 120's specifically have a thicker wall and are tougher then other BT Hunting bullets so I am told. They shoot pretty well. I'm now thinking 140's as well. Bought a box of Nosler Accubonds in 140 gr. Others have said perform was very good as an all around 7mm-08 bullet for deer and elk at closer ranges. Hope to get to the range this week to work on the 140's. Same thought process in that I'd like to load the 140's and be done.


My son's 7mm08 is loaded up with 120grn BT hunting @2925fps. Its a dream to shoot, recoil is soooo light on it that its amazing and FUN to shoot. His gun only has a 20" barrel as its a youth version but I wouldn't hesitate using it for deer.

I have an assortment of 140grn bullets and while I concentrated on finding an accurate low recoiling load for my boy, I did try a few different 140s with pretty mediocre results (to be fair, the 120s using those same powders shot like crap as well, his gun is picky when it comes to powder). We finally settled in using h4350 for the 120s at 1-1.5moa which is great for a cheap youth gun.

I plan to work up some 140accubond loads using 4350 down the road and am confident they will be accurate, but I don't feel the need to work on it until he wants to hunt elk.

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> So would the 6.5 creedmore be better long distance choice on deer with occasional close elk thrown in?
> 
> If this gun didn't have to do double duty for my kids I'd go 300 wsm
> 
> What would you go with if you were in my shoes? What would you build?


Who's shooting the 500 yards? You or them? 7mm08 is a great caliber, just not a great long distance elk caliber. Keep the 7mm08, run 100 yards closer 

-DallanC


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I'd most likley be shooting the 500 yards on deer. However if lindsay can prove she is as good a shot as myself then I'd have no problem letting her take the shot. She routinely shoots my .223 and .243 as good as I do off a back pack.

Elk would be 250 and under. Her elk last year fell at a hundred yards to a .243. I'd think a .7mmo8 would have quite a bit more ke then the .243

The production gun I'm looking at is the savage lady hunter for her. I've herd their sub moa out of the box. Probably won't get the accuracy I'm looking for but good enough?

If I build there are several options the only limitations is money and I have a rem 700 short action to use as a base.Maybe I should just put a break on a .270 wsm? My friends .300 ultra mag in Christensen arms kicks like a .243 and its a light gun. Only down side is the hat blowing off muzzle blast. Lol


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## BruinPoint (Mar 22, 2010)

If I was building a custom 7mm08 around 140 gr. bullets I'd go with a 9.5" twist, which has done great things for a variety of 140 gr bullets in my own 7-08's. Barrel length I'd have to think about. For another 50-70 fps and with today's ballistic software on my phone, I might choose to save the length and weight and stick with a 24in tube over 26in. I'd also do it on a Rem 700 action.

This is probably worth a laugh, but since production guns came up, both of my 7-08's were budget guns with low expectations and both are sub-MOA out of the box with handloads. One's a Savage Model 11 and the other is a Tikka T3 Lite.

I think your goal of elk to 250 is more than reasonable. My wife killed a bull at 309 yds with a 140 Partition and I've killed cows at 332 and 435 yds with 140 Accubonds. There's a fair amount of drop and drift at 400+ and given the terminal ballistic limitations of a mild cartridge at those distances - a marginal hit could be a wreck.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I agree with Bruin. Buy or build a 708 with a 24" 1-9.5 twist and it will do everything that you have specified. On top of that, you and the daughter will really enjoy shooting it.----SS


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I see the savage has a 1 in 9 twist. Is that for a heavier bullet or a lighter bullet? 

I'd think a heavier bullet would be designed for 7mm mag velocities so it might not open up properly at the slower fps. Am I correct?

Also who makes a 1 in 9.5 twist barrel?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

1:9 and 1:9.5 are very close. Slower twist barrels tend to better stabilize light bullets and faster twist barrels work better for heavier or longer bullets. I'm not sure who offers 1:9.5 on factory rifles, but I have ordered them from Douglas, PacNor, and Shilen. They are supposed to be the perfect match for 140-150 grain bullets in 7MM. I would think that a 1:9 would be just fine for 140-160 grain bullets as well, especially at more modest velocities. If Savage runs the 1:9, they probably have a good reason and their rifles are very accurate. My Uncle has a lightweight hunter in 708 and it is a sub MOA rifle that is very light.---SS


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies. Im new to the target side of shooting. I've always had guns but nothing nice. Always thought they were ok with 1.5 inch groups until I started shooting friends rifles that are dialed in so to speak. Now I want to play.

This style of shooting looks fun. Do you know what make gun the guy is shooting with the break? I mean is it custom or factory?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I have been pondering getting a 7mm-08 myself. I need a gun for my young nieces to use when they go with me I looked (at the local gun shop) at a Ruger American in 7mm-08 and according to its specs it has the 1-9.5 twist. 

The savages I saw were also 1-9.5 twist.

Granted im not looking to set another long range target gun, but the preformance for the price is temping. However I'm still doing some research into those rifles, still haven't decided weather or not to pull the trigger on one.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

My sons Browning Micro Midas is 1-9.5 twist.


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## BruinPoint (Mar 22, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> I'd think a heavier bullet would be designed for 7mm mag velocities so it might not open up properly at the slower fps. Am I correct?


Even 140gr Accubonds are a little "hard" (by design they should expand down to 1800fps, which for my load should be just shy of 450yds). I don't have experience with anything else at longer ranges. 150gr Ballistic tips starting at 2650fps were surprisingly explosive on two different antelope at less than 250yds. 150gr Sierra Gamekings held together pretty well on a deer at 50-ish yards and should be softer than Accubonds. Point being I think there are good options in heavier bullets for the 7mm-08 at long range, you just want something middle of the road between frangible and hard.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Bullet performance is something I think most hunters never think about. They just go out with something in 300 win mag and shoot a deer broadside with a 180 or larger bullet at close range or long range and wonder why the deer ran before it died. 

It seems to me if you have an idea of your average shot distance and build a gun arround that distance you should have boom plop no blood trail recoveries. But again I'm not the type that ever looked into that part of shooting before. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I wish that there was such a bullet where your rifle goes boom and the animal goes plop in his tracks. In the 40 years that I have been hunting I have had those that just went down at the shot and most of them were shot in the spine, but I have also had lung/heart shot deer and elk do the same thing. Then again I have had lung/heart shot deer and elk go a hundred yards before they went down, they just didn't know that they should of died on the spot where the bullet hit them. 

I have tried all kinds of magic bullets and have recovered some and lost a lot more than I have recovered due to pass through shots. I guess that I just haven't found that right combination but I'll keep trying.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Scott,

I bought my wife a savage model 11 and it shoots both the 120 and 140 gr ballistic tips well under 1". It is a dream to shoot. I love the 120's.


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## BruinPoint (Mar 22, 2010)

I think you're right about most people not giving bullet performance a second thought. The good news is that most of the cheap factory ammo uses bullets that are about as middle of the road as you can get (Rem. Core Lokt, Speer Hot-Cor, Winchester PowerPoint...). 

I wish I could find that magical "bang-flop" medicine too.


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## Utmuddguy (Aug 25, 2013)

Buy yourself a brux 1in9 I'll install it on your Remington for ya. Then cfe223 and a 140 Berger will net you about 3000 fps from a 26" barrel.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Having built rifles from .22 to 45-70, and chambering a lot of barrels from many different manufactures, I would say you are putting the cart before the horse. Build the rifle with the recommended twist and length for your caliber, and then build up a round to the barrel. I have seen two rifles, same model, same manufacture, get very different results with the same bullet. In one of those cases it was the throat of the chamber. After seating bullets deeper for one of the rifles, the results got better. But it still shot lighter bullets better than heavy ones. Because there are so many variables with a barrel, accuracy is usually achieved by working with the individual barrel. Bullet weight can be one of those variables, and if accuracy is the goal, defaulting to something besides 140 grains may be necessary.


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## Utmuddguy (Aug 25, 2013)

I have 5 reamers in 7mm-08 and have used them all several times the all have shined with a 9 twist with 140s


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I am not saying 140 grain bullets wont shoot good. I'm just saying that if the utmost accuracy is the goal, load variables are one of the only things that can be changed, or tuned, once you have a complete rifle, and that is what you focus on. We are of course talking about sub MOA differences between rounds.


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## Utmuddguy (Aug 25, 2013)

Why would anyone choose a 9.5 twist in any 7mm? When a one in 9 is so much more versatile. It'll shoot the 120s through 180s. A premium barrel is far more important than a half inch of twist


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

The only reason I wanted to focus on barrel first was I wanted to get the right twist rate and correct length to get the most performance or speed/stabalization. I heard there was a formula that calculates this stuff. 

So from what I gather I need a 24" or better length with 1-9 twist.

I picked 140 grain because its the middle of the road with bullet selection. I could go heavier or lighter if needed

In the end right now I will be dealing with factory loaded ammunition. Dealing with factory ammunition I was under the impression the heavier bullets in 7mmo8 may not perform at slower velocities well. I heard they are better for 7mm mag velocities. 

So those are my reasons for choosing the cart before the horse. I'm new to this accuracy stuff. Who knows maybe the accurate bullet choice won't kill a deer as humanely as it kills paper. 

My average shot on deer with this rifle will be arround 300 and under but I want to stretch it to 500-600 if needed.

Last but not least I want it to look good or at least look like its accurate lol 

What scope would you choose for my purposes? I'd like one of the brands that has a turret on it so I can dial it to the range my range finder says its at.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Utmuddguy said:


> Why would anyone choose a 9.5 twist in any 7mm? When a one in 9 is so much more versatile. It'll shoot the 120s through 180s. A premium barrel is far more important than a half inch of twist


I am no expert on 7mm, but yeah, a 1:9 twist would be better for heavier bullets, and still allow you to shoot lighter bullets. Higher velocities, with lighter bullets is the only reason I can think of for a 1:9.5 twist. Everyone seems to focus on fps. So yeah, in the case of wanting to shoot 140 grain bullets, 1:9 would definitely be the way to go.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> The only reason I wanted to focus on barrel first was I wanted to get the right twist rate and correct length to get the most performance or speed/stabalization. I heard there was a formula that calculates this stuff.
> 
> So from what I gather I need a 24" or better length with 1-9 twist.
> 
> ...


My grandfather used to say "accuracy is ethical" this was hypocritical coming from him, but I tend to agree. An under powered, light, well placed bullet, kills better, than the largest, over powered bullet that does not hit the mark. So the best of both worlds is adequate power, adequate weight, with the utmost accuracy. heart and lung shots, are heart and lung shots.

I know nothing about range finders and high tech scopes.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I also believe "Accuracy is ethical" 

Archery has tought me if in doubt get closer. Also knowing your weapon and its capabilities will put you ahead of luck any day.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> What scope would you choose for my purposes? I'd like one of the brands that has a turret on it so I can dial it to the range my range finder says its at.


You will get 50 different opinions on this one. I don't think that you can beat the value of the NIkon Monarch, lucky for you, if you so decide, Cabela's has them for about $80 off plus has 12 months no interest, if that would help, same no interest on Leupold, but they cost about double. The Monarch comes with adjustable turrets, even though it is not mentioned anywhere on the page; I just bought one myself. I think Vortex would be second on my list.
Here is a good resource for learning about optics from an industry expert http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2i.scopes_optics.htm


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Utmuddguy said:


> Why would anyone choose a 9.5 twist in any 7mm? When a one in 9 is so much more versatile. It'll shoot the 120s through 180s. A premium barrel is far more important than a half inch of twist


I chose to go with a 1/9.5 because the master gunsmith and long range rifle expert who was building my gun recommended it. It is chambered in 7MM Dakota. My load is a 160 AB at 3150 fps. This combination shoots sub MOA out to 800 yards. I have had custom rifles in 7mag, 7 STW, and the Dakota all with premium barrels in 1/9.5. All have shot bullets from 140-160 very well. So my i will continue to go 1/9.5 in e future.-------SS


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I like this one. can you put the after market turrets or custom made turrets on them? Will they return to zero when you twist them back?

http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/...67/MONARCH-3-3-12x42-Side-Focus-Nikoplex.html


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> I chose to go with a 1/9.5 because the master gunsmith and long range rifle expert who was building my gun recommended it. It is chambered in 7MM Dakota. My load is a 160 AB at 3150 fps. This combination shoots sub MOA out to 800 yards. I have had custom rifles in 7mag, 7 STW, and the Dakota all with premium barrels in 1/9.5. All have shot bullets from 140-160 very well. So my i will continue to go 1/9.5 in e future.-------SS


Just curious, why did you move to the Dakota from the STW? I think if I ever burn out this barrel I will rebarrel in 7Rem Mag. Speed is fun, but requires more tuning IMO.

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> I like this one. can you put the after market turrets or custom made turrets on them? Will they return to zero when you twist them back?http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/...67/MONARCH-3-3-12x42-Side-Focus-Nikoplex.html


Completely dependent on the individual scope model.

An old-school test: Take any scope and zero it at 100 yards. Now run it 8 clicks up and fire 3. 8 clicks left, fire 3. 8 clicks down, fire 3. Now 8 clicks right and fire 3... they SHOULD be hitting center of target, if not, you have some drift issues with the scope adjusters and turrets will be a waste of money.

-DallanC


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## Utmuddguy (Aug 25, 2013)

Lets try an experiment. If the OP wants to get a barrel in 1in9 ill true his action thread chamber and crown it free of charge. Then we'll test 140s through 180s if it doesn't shoot sub minute to 1000 ill buy the barrel from him.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Dallan that's a good experiment. I'm affraid what would happen if I tested it though with anything I bought. I always seem to get screwed unless I buy top shelf stuff. Thats the problem I'm on a bottom shelf budget.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Utmuddguy said:


> Lets try an experiment. If the OP wants to get a barrel in 1in9 ill true his action thread chamber and crown it free of charge. Then we'll test 140s through 180s if it doesn't shoot sub minute to 1000 ill buy the barrel from him.


What's the barrel cost? Sounds like a good experiment


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## Utmuddguy (Aug 25, 2013)

Brux Bartlien Krieger, all about 325. 450 fluted


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

I shoot a 7mm08 Browning A bolt. It has a 1:9.5 rate of twist and shoots a variety of 140 grain bullets well. However, it sounds like others on here are more knowledgeable on the topic than I am. 

I thought I'd share some insight on bullet performance. I've had the best success with Nosler partitions and Fusions. I tried Accubonds, but I think they may be a little too stout for the moderate velocities of the 08. Nosler has come out with new Accubond Long Range bullets, which are still bonded but have a slightly thinner wall so they will open at velocities all the way down to 1300 fps. I think they would be perfect, but are probably only available if you handload. I also just bought some Hornaday SST rounds. I haven't tried them on game, so I can't give you any feedback on their performance, but their velocities are 200 fps faster than the competitors. 

Good luck building your gun. It sounds like a fun project.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Just curious, why did you move to the Dakota from the STW? I think if I ever burn out this barrel I will rebarrel in 7Rem Mag. Speed is fun, but requires more tuning IMO.
> 
> -DallanC


I went with the Dakota to try something different. I basically was after red hot 7mag performance with medium loads. I have been pleasantly surprised with the Dakota. It is not picky at all and the brass is wearing very well. I prefer it to my STW as it has less recoil and works great with a 25" barrel. I wouldn't claim any huge advantage over the 7mag, but if you want a cool cartridge that performs well, the Dakota is a good choice. My rifle is built on an old M-77 action that has had two barrels previosly, a Shilen and a Douglas both in 7mag. This time I went with a PacNor in Dakota. When this rifle wears out, I will build another Dakota on a new action.-------SS


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Where are you located UT


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## Utmuddguy (Aug 25, 2013)

Taylorsville


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Cool your close. Sounds like I need to get a barrel. Ill send a Pm


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