# Oh how the world is changing



## OverTheEdge (Sep 12, 2013)

For those of you who know Paddler, you have to view this image. Still politically obnoxious but seems to have found some flexibility when it comes to hunting methodology!


----------



## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

I'm confused


----------



## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

I would have never imagined the day would come! Does he actually own that thing?
Later,
Kev


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

OMG


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Uh that's just a mechanical paddle. Duh


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

kev said:


> I would have never imagined the day would come! Does he actually own that thing?
> Later,
> Kev


How can you even suggest that, Kevin? I was held at gunpoint against my will. Never thought that photo would be posted on the internet. I even photoshopped it myself.


----------



## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

Makes a lot more sense now.... Can not even imagine the day....
Later,
Kev


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Welcome to the dark side! :mrgreen:


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

OMG I just threw up! He's in a boat with a motor and he's not holding a fishing pole with a Penn 209 reel on it. 

You need to post this over on Duckhunter.net. He might get another life sentence lol

Nothing better than a good pot stirring thread!!


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

OverTheEdge said:


> Still politically obnoxious . . .


I couldn't agree more! :mrgreen:


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

JerryH said:


> OMG I just threw up! He's in a boat with a motor and he's not holding a fishing pole with a Penn 209 reel on it.
> 
> You need to post this over on Duckhunter.net. He might get another life sentence lol
> 
> Nothing better than a good pot stirring thread!!


Jer, I don't use Penn's much. Nothing wrong with them, I just like gold reels. Too bad I got banned from duckhunter.net, they just can't handle the truth. The 24 Hour Campfire is entertaining, though. Similar far right ideologues.



dubob said:


> I couldn't agree more! :mrgreen:


You don't know the half of it.



Fowlmouth said:


> Welcome to the dark side! :mrgreen:


Don't get excited, not my boat, not public ground. As I look at what has happened to our marshes in the past 20 years or so, I've seen them shrink for three reasons. The receding lake, the encroachment by phrag, and the rapid increase in mud motor use have all contributed. The relative importance of these factors is impossible to measure, but it's clear that MM haven't benefited our marshes.

Take Farmington Bay, for example. I've been out on the Turpin a few times, and often see only coots. It seems to be a fly over unit now, at least during shooting hours. Not only that, but MM have also degraded hunting on the units out west because they make them easier to access. Unit 1 is a shadow of what it was in the late 90s.

Nope, I don't see me owning a MM as long as I can get where I want to be without one. I value peace and quiet too much.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> As I look at what has happened to our marshes in the past 20 years or so, I've seen them shrink for three reasons. The receding lake, the encroachment by phrag, and the rapid increase in mud motor use have all contributed.
> 
> Not only that, but MM have also degraded hunting on the units out west because they make them easier to access.


:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Saying mud motors are the cause of the destruction of our marshes makes as much sense as saying guns kill people and a fork made Rosy O'Donnell fat; which is to say it makes no sense at all. Mud motors are inanimate objects that can effect no action by themselves. They must be put into action by people. So lets put the blame where it belongs; it's the person (or the overabundance of people) operating the mud motor(s) that is causing the problem, NOT the mud motor per se.


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

dubob said:


> :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
> 
> Saying mud motors are the cause of the destruction of our marshes makes as much sense as saying guns kill people and a fork made Rosy O'Donnell fat; which is to say it makes no sense at all. Mud motors are inanimate objects that can effect no action by themselves. They must be put into action by people. So lets put the blame where it belongs; it's the person (or the overabundance of people) operating the mud motor(s) that is causing the problem, NOT the mud motor per se.


Isn't that the same difference?

I don't think mud motors cheddering the SAV does any good either.

Pressure definitely doesn't do duck numbers sticking around any good. I don't understand people that blow off logic. Lots of loud mud motors tearing through the marsh= no birds sticking around.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

dubob said:


> :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
> 
> Saying mud motors are the cause of the destruction of our marshes makes as much sense as saying guns kill people and a fork made Rosy O'Donnell fat; which is to say it makes no sense at all. Mud motors are inanimate objects that can effect no action by themselves. They must be put into action by people. So lets put the blame where it belongs; it's the person (or the overabundance of people) operating the mud motor(s) that is causing the problem, NOT the mud motor per se.


That's one of the most nonsensical posts I've seen in a while. Congratulations, Bob!! You'd like it over on the 'fire, that kind of crap passes for wisdom over there.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

It never ceases to amaze me that folks are always blaming inanimate objects they personally find disgusting for the ills of the world. They don't do it for cars for causing drunk driver deaths on the highways or ladders, hammers or knives for deaths in the home. But they will jump on the band wagon and blame mud motors for destroying marshes/duck hunting. Where is the logic in that?

In case you missed it (or just choose to ignore it), the problem is with the increased numbers of folks using mud motors that is causing the problems. The only way to control the problem is to control the participation rate.

When I started hunting in Utah back in the 70s & 80s, I would be lucky to see 5 other boats on Ogden Bay - on a weekend. Today, the weekends show 30 or more boat trailers in the parking lot. Ogden Bay Unit 1 isn't that big and it gets crowded very quickly. The birds get shot at just about anywhere they fly in that unit. The solution is to reduce the numbers allowed on the unit at any given time, not the method they use to get around on the unit.

Yea, I can hear the screams already; no way you will support limiting access to a finite resource. All I can say is this - welcome to the real world of overpopulation. It isn't going to get any better.

I constantly see posts on here extolling the virtues of getting more and more youth involved in the sport to keep it viable into the future. Noble gesture and I support the idea. But it is contributing to even more overpopulation and will eventually overtax the resource.

Paddler would ban mud motors on an undetermined number of refuge waters. That will push more folks into using the waters left open, thereby increasing the problem on those waters. So where does it all end? A total ban on motorized transport in all duck marshes? Yea; right.

Wake up folks! the problem is NOT the mud motors. The problem is to many people using a finite resource. There needs to be a finite limit on the number of people allowed to use the resource at any given time. The mode of transportation matters not at all.


----------



## WTRFWLN (Dec 12, 2012)

"Don't get excited, not my boat, not public ground. As I look at what has happened to our marshes in the past 20 years or so, I've seen them shrink for three reasons. The receding lake, the encroachment by phrag." 
So because its not his and not public ground it totally 100% fine??? People like this crack me up!! Hypocritical if you ask me? He has answered his own venture of banning MM. Our population has close to doubled in the last 20 years, and going to double in the next 20 what are we going to do then? More houses, power, water, global warming shrikning the GSL. More people = more stress on all of our natural resources. But lets ban MM on all the wma so we can listen to all the dike guys sky bust cause that keeps the birds around alot longer than some MM. All it is, is one guys preference over another guys?


----------



## WTRFWLN (Dec 12, 2012)

PS, John how was the new state hunt? Looks like a buckt of birds there? Looks like a Jess Johnson boat there?


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Using that logic then we need to ban outboard motors on lakes because they scare fish, then if we ban outboard motors on lakes then really shouldn't we ban boats on lakes because they scare fish too, then if we ban boats on lakes shouldn't we ban fishermen on lakes because they catch fish....when will the logic ever end. Of course humans disturb wildlife of every sort whenever they are in the same environment. If you feel there are too many folks at public WMA's there are only two real solutions. Create more WMA's for duck hunters or find private property you can have all to yourself.


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

The birds have adapted to the use of mud motors. Fortunately, a lot of hunters haven't. ;-)


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

LostLouisianian said:


> Using that logic then we need to ban outboard motors on lakes because they scare fish, then if we ban outboard motors on lakes then really shouldn't we ban boats on lakes because they scare fish too, then if we ban boats on lakes shouldn't we ban fishermen on lakes because they catch fish....when will the logic ever end. Of course humans disturb wildlife of every sort whenever they are in the same environment. If you feel there are too many folks at public WMA's there are only two real solutions. Create more WMA's for duck hunters or find private property you can have all to yourself.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

WTRFWLN said:


> PS, John how was the new state hunt? Looks like a buckt of birds there? Looks like a Jess Johnson boat there?


Fun hunt. The birds didn't work well, so it was mostly pass shooting. I suck at that, but we got our birds. Had the last pintail for dinner last night:



Don't know who built the boat. You might want to ask the instigator of this thread.



LostLouisianian said:


> Using that logic then we need to ban outboard motors on lakes because they scare fish, then if we ban outboard motors on lakes then really shouldn't we ban boats on lakes because they scare fish too, then if we ban boats on lakes shouldn't we ban fishermen on lakes because they catch fish....when will the logic ever end. Of course humans disturb wildlife of every sort whenever they are in the same environment. If you feel there are too many folks at public WMA's there are only two real solutions. Create more WMA's for duck hunters or find private property you can have all to yourself.


I've heard all the arguments before. Not sure if you were around then, but I wrote a Motorless Access proposal back in 2009. I was also a participant on the Great Salt Lake Advisory Group at the invitation of the DWR. No need to rehash all that stuff. However, the problems I sought to address back then haven't gone away. My previous proposal was to designate a motorless unit be established in each WMA. That approach is a bit complicated. I think it would be better to simply close all our WMAs to MMs every other day, ie, on odd or even numbered days. Simple, effective, it would decrease pressure across the board, improve hunting and make our marshes better all around.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

So, dubob's posts reminded me of a line in the movie "Collateral". Watch from about 23:00 on:


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> I think it would be better to simply close all our WMAs to MMs every other day, ie, on odd or even numbered days. Simple, effective, it would decrease pressure across the board, improve hunting and make our marshes better all around.


And where is the factual data to support such a claim? 'I think' ain't cuttin' it. You can 'think' all you want; it doesn't make it so.


----------



## WTRFWLN (Dec 12, 2012)

Not trying to hash any of the motorless proposal, but the odd even days are horse ****. Now take your New State hunt. 3000 acres of I would consider PREMIUM wetlands under Full time management, water master ect. Now heres the Kicker!! Correct me if Im wrong 4 rest days a week. No odd even days no 24-7 days week pressure. I think around 80 members for 3000 acres makes 40 acres per person if everybody was hunting each open day? (not even close). I hunt if Im lucky 2-3 days a week public lands. Im all for closing WMA for 4 days a week?? But I see that would be a hudge probblem for everybody else. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: They contribute to the public lands also. How do you come up with an answer that benifits the whole public??? You dont?? So lets focas on the Problems we can try and eliminate that we all agree on PHRAG AND lack of WATER, The rest is just a plain waste of time?


----------



## hotspot (Jan 12, 2009)

dubob said:


> And where is the factual data to support such a claim? 'I think' ain't cuttin' it. You can 'think' all you want; it doesn't make it so.


Be careful Bob. He is going to throw his internet research at you. Probably start off with some European study on SAV. Didn't you quit the advisory committee because you weren't getting your way?


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

paddler213 said:


> Fun hunt. The birds didn't work well, so it was mostly pass shooting. I suck at that, but we got our birds. Had the last pintail for dinner last night:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is a motorless unit at FB. It's called the rest area. I am pretty sure I am unique to this forum in the fact that no one else on here has ever had their land confiscated (imminent domain claim) by the government and turned into a WMA. We lost a heck of a lot of land when the government pretty much stole it from us and they turned it into a WMA. The hunting there at times has been great and at times has been awful. We can debate until pigs fly the motorless unit, the virtues of odd/even motorless days but in reality there is about 99.99% of the state that is NOT WMA land where ducks also can fly to. Creating odd or even days or motorless areas will do nothing to ATTRACT ducks to an area. It may create a more pleasurable hunting experience for a small number of the overall number of hunters but it's not going to bring ducks into an area. At FB there is a large rest area and you can often see huge numbers of ducks sitting there. That's why it's called hunting and not SHOOTING. You have to earn it.


----------



## WTRFWLN (Dec 12, 2012)

Lost, it not that unique to have the gov. take land. Look at the Prision coming to Salt Lake City. The Mayor has already Condemned Quite of few Peices of land out on the north side of the "NEW" Prision Boundry. Its now going to a WMA but worse, nothing but fill dirt, after they bring in all that fill to bring up the elevation up 10'. Just think of all the wetlands they are going to fill up to house criminals? Like I said in my previous post. More people = more encroachment on the Natural Resource's. Paddler needs to start a new Management plan to fight off the highway system that want to go through all wetlands instead of Banning MM's.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

WTRFWLN said:


> Lost, it not that unique to have the gov. take land. Look at the Prision coming to Salt Lake City. The Mayor has already Condemned Quite of few Peices of land out on the north side of the "NEW" Prision Boundry. Its now going to a WMA but worse, nothing but fill dirt, after they bring in all that fill to bring up the elevation up 10'. Just think of all the wetlands they are going to fill up to house criminals? Like I said in my previous post. More people = more encroachment on the Natural Resource's. Paddler needs to start a new Management plan to fight off the highway system that want to go through all wetlands instead of Banning MM's.


I didn't say it was unique to have the government take your land, I said "I am pretty sure I am unique to this forum in the fact that no one else on here has ever had their land confiscated (imminent domain claim) by the government and turned into a WMA."

To the best of my knowledge no one else on this forum has had land taken by the government and turned into a WMA. We allowed free fishing on our lakes as well as hunting anything you wanted on the land and ridges between the bayous and sloughs. The only thing we prohibited was duck hunting and we reserved that for our family and the two other co-owners. So in effect the state gained nothing other than opening up the area to duck hunting by stealing our land/lakes. This was in LA by the way not Utah.

http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/wma/2758-spring-bayou-wma/springbayou.pdf


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

WTRFWLN said:


> Its now going to a WMA but worse, nothing but fill dirt, after they bring in all that fill to bring up the elevation up 10'. Just think of all the wetlands they are going to fill up to house criminals?


No disrespect intended or implied. SLC Arpt is a local (SLC) government facility. When they built the west runway a few years back, they had to replace every acre of wetlands they destroyed. Anybody who belongs to one of the dozen or more duck clubs collectively called the South Shore Association must drive right through that airport replaced property called by many the 'Mitigation marsh' to get to their club. I'm pretty certain that is a Federal Law requirement. Oh, and of course it is closed to all hunting or trespass.

When (If) Utah builds the new prison on a wetlands, they will be required by that same Federal law to replace it with a wetlands someplace else - acre for acre. Highways (such as the Legacy Parkway) are required to also do so. The bottom line in all this is going to be no net loss of wetlands based on Federal Law.


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

dubob said:


> No disrespect intended or implied. SLC Arpt is a local (SLC) government facility. When they built the west runway a few years back, they had to replace every acre of wetlands they destroyed. Anybody who belongs to one of the dozen or more duck clubs collectively called the South Shore Association must drive right through that airport replaced property called by many the 'Mitigation marsh' to get to their club. I'm pretty certain that is a Federal Law requirement. Oh, and of course it is closed to all hunting or trespass.
> 
> When (If) Utah builds the new prison on a wetlands, they will be required by that same Federal law to replace it with a wetlands someplace else - acre for acre. Highways (such as the Legacy Parkway) are required to also do so. The bottom line in all this is going to be no net loss of wetlands based on Federal Law.


but isn't that like replacing a house, and putting the front door in west valley, the living room in sandy, the bathroom in downtown slc etc..... There is no net loss but the habitat and the birds that used the area are dramatically affected.


----------



## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

utahgolf said:


> but isn't that like replacing a house, and putting the front door in west valley, the living room in sandy, the bathroom in downtown slc etc..... There is no net loss but the habitat and the birds that used the area are dramatically affected.


It's not at all like that. If 500 acres is destroyed, then a 500 acre wetlands is created someplace else. They don't put 50 acres here, 200 over there, and the rest over yonder. The birds have no problem finding the new wetlands. And I'm pretty sure that if they destroy acres in Utah county, they don't replace them in Washington County. But that's just an assumption on my part. I could be wrong on that point.


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

paddler213 said:


> Fun hunt. The birds didn't work well, so it was mostly pass shooting. I suck at that, but we got our birds. Had the last pintail for dinner last night:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

1BandMan said:


> Lots of loud mud motors tearing through the marsh= no birds sticking around.


by that logic i should sell the fan boat. loader than hell and i seem to still shoot a bunch of birds. guess ill just sell it.....


----------



## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

dubob said:


> It's not at all like that. If 500 acres is destroyed, then a 500 acre wetlands is created someplace else. They don't put 50 acres here, 200 over there, and the rest over yonder. The birds have no problem finding the new wetlands. And I'm pretty sure that if they destroy acres in Utah county, they don't replace them in Washington County. But that's just an assumption on my part. I could be wrong on that point.


hmmm, I'll have to look into it. I thought they just had to replace the total sum acres that were destroyed. Meaning it could be parceled into smaller pieces but just add up to that which was destroyed.


----------



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

WTRFWLN said:


> Not trying to hash any of the motorless proposal, but the odd even days are horse ****. Now take your New State hunt. 3000 acres of I would consider PREMIUM wetlands under Full time management, water master ect. Now heres the Kicker!! Correct me if Im wrong 4 rest days a week. No odd even days no 24-7 days week pressure. I think around 80 members for 3000 acres makes 40 acres per person if everybody was hunting each open day? (not even close). I hunt if Im lucky 2-3 days a week public lands. Im all for closing WMA for 4 days a week?? But I see that would be a hudge probblem for everybody else. :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen: They contribute to the public lands also. How do you come up with an answer that benifits the whole public??? You dont?? So lets focas on the Problems we can try and eliminate that we all agree on PHRAG AND lack of WATER, The rest is just a plain waste of time?


Well, the New State has rest days for only one reason, it makes the hunting better. I think less pressure makes for better hunting, and so do the private clubs. Now, we wouldn't be closing the WMAs every other day. They'd still be open for motorless access. It's worth a try.



JerryH said:


> paddler213 said:
> 
> 
> > Fun hunt. The birds didn't work well, so it was mostly pass shooting. I suck at that, but we got our birds. Had the last pintail for dinner last night:
> ...


Who is that guy, Jer? I certainly hope OTE is happy, nothing like waving a red flag in front of the MM guys.

Hey, I have a great idea. Let's talk about the NRA, then maybe gun control.;-)


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

utahgolf said:


> The birds have adapted to the use of mud motors. Fortunately, a lot of hunters haven't. ;-)


But wouldn't I get thrown in jail and folks forgetting where the key went if I starting shooting up geese and ducks on the golf courses and parks in town?


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

king eider said:


> by that logic i should sell the fan boat. loader than hell and i seem to still shoot a bunch of birds. guess ill just sell it.....


Do with it as you want, but as far as logic goes,....... if a bunch of hot rodders with open headers or cherry bomb glass packs were ripping up and down your street day and night and law enforcement refused to do anything about it,.......just like the ducks, you wouldn't stick around for very long I don't think.

Kind of amazing we continue to choose to screw ourselves over with our encroachment in the marsh.


----------



## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

1BandMan said:


> Do with it as you want, but as far as logic goes,....... if a bunch of hot rodders with open headers or cherry bomb glass packs were ripping up and down your street day and night and law enforcement refused to do anything about it,.......just like the ducks, you wouldn't stick around for very long I don't think.
> 
> Kind of amazing we continue to choose to screw ourselves over with our encroachment in the marsh.


Well, not necessary a strong correlation on your argument between hot riders in the neighborhood and ducks in the marsh. But if you want it make is sound like your an expert then I guess all the birds have left. Funny, I know of several places where fan boat travers all day long going back and forth, day in and day out. Yet the birds are still around. Go figure....


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

king eider said:


> Well, not necessary a strong correlation on your argument between hot riders in the neighborhood and ducks in the marsh. But if you want it make is sound like your an expert then I guess all the birds have left. Funny, I know of several places where fan boat travers all day long going back and forth, day in and day out. Yet the birds are still around. Go figure....


Good for you.
I'm glad to hear that the birds are still holding tight where you are despite all the airboat traffic. Must be exceptions to the rule...there always are.

As far as correlation goes.......if you were harassed the same as the ducks are or any other animal or bird or fish or.... other critter, it usually doesn't take long before they clear out rather than continue to be harassed......just like I think you would.....or I guess since there are exceptions to every rule "a reasonable person" would.


----------



## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

1BandMan said:


> Good for you.
> I'm glad to hear that the birds are still holding tight where you are despite all the airboat traffic. Must be exceptions to the rule...there always are.
> 
> As far as correlation goes.......if you were harassed the same as the ducks are or any other animal or bird or fish or.... other critter, it usually doesn't take long before they clear out rather than continue to be harassed......just like I think you would.....or I guess since there are exceptions to every rule "a reasonable person" would.


Humm... Haven't had to much of a problem finding birds in airboat country. Perhaps your "rule" is incorrect. Come to think of it, haven't had to much of a problem the last 6 years I've owned my fan boat. Have any more profound unsubstantiated facts to share?


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Clearly all these posts of pictures and videos of ducks killed in FB are photoshopped...:shock:


----------



## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

king eider said:


> Humm... Haven't had to much of a problem finding birds in airboat country. Perhaps your "rule" is incorrect. Come to think of it, haven't had to much of a problem the last 6 years I've owned my fan boat. Have any more profound unsubstantiated facts to share?


"In air boat country" yup, for now you have more options and access than the mud boats.

For now.

Don't flaunt it too hard for too long....mud boat guys might make up your difference. Air boats aren't too much more expensive especially if you build your own.

That's the thing. More and more extreme measures have to be used to get to the birds when in the beginning, walking off the dike would hold some birds. Now it's air boat country.


----------



## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

1BandMan said:


> "In air boat country" yup, for now you have more options and access than the mud boats.
> 
> For now.
> 
> ...


Boy you really are guessing aren't you. The first of the season their are far less options for access in airboat country. Seems that most my friends who hunt out of Jon boats are doing rather well inside WMA's. I'm yet to see this end of the world scheme your trying to cook up. Walking off the dike still holds birds. What's more and more extreme measures? Air boating has been going on in the GSL marshes for decades. Seems to me the larger threat is that of phrag. But then again global warming is going kill us all right!?


----------

