# What a JOKE!



## ICEMAN2 (Dec 5, 2008)

five of us put in for general deer, with one point, NO DRAW! 16 moose points, put in for East Canyon, last year was 100% draw at 14 pts, NO DRAW! Second year with no tags at all, how are you suppose to get your children into hunting when you can't get them a tag to HUNT! I am so ready to just call it quits, Its just not worth the crap anymore! Time for a new hobby! On top of that it cost me $200 bucks in app fees and hunting liscenses to not even draw a freaking tag.


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## Rabbit_slayer16 (Oct 18, 2007)

that sucks man.. sorry. maybe get them into bird hunting? IMO bird hunting is just as fun as big game.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Utah's draw system is one of the biggest jokes out their. I know of at least one moose tag that was drawn with 2 points and 5 LE elk tags with 1, go go figure. At least here in Colorado if the DOW says that it takes 5 points to draw a tag then it takes at least 5 points and not 1 or 2. 

Definitely get you kids into birds and small game. When I first started hunting you couldn't get a deer tag until you were 16 and I lived for the rabbit season along with birds.


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## gunner76 (Apr 11, 2010)

put the kids in for antlerless, they would probaly draw one of those.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

I have put in for southern rifle for the last 5 years. Still no tag. That is right, 4 preference points on a general tag. Don't feel too bad with your 1 point.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

It's a Joke, and it is not a fair system. I'm with you ICEMAN2 on giving up with the big game here. Fortunately for now I still have waterfowling to occupy my time. (until they figure out a way to screw me on that too)


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> It's a Joke, and it is not a fair system. I'm with you ICEMAN2 on giving up with the big game here. Fortunately for now I still have waterfowling to occupy my time. (until they figure out a way to screw me on that too)


Shouldn't be too much longer. We will have to draw for blinds on the WMA's like they do in the south. You don't draw a blind for the day you go home and spend it with your wife. :? O|*


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I think 7 of us put in for Southern first choice, NE 2nd choice and Northern 3rd; guess where we are headed!! :evil: :evil: Never hunted the northern, never wanted to.....oh well, it will be a good group campout.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Some of you guys remind me of kids who throw their nintendo paddles when they lose and say the game cheated them...it is a draw. Luck is always going to be a part of it...both good and bad.

I have hunted deer and elk every year since I moved back to Utah from Wyoming including drawing for an LE elk tag with one point and an antelope with no points. Part of the problem some of you guys face is your unwillingness to change and apply for tags that are easier to draw...


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## iluvchukars (Oct 21, 2009)

i think its funny all the threats of quitting....no you wont cuz you love it too much. and if you do quit then it just ups the chance for the rest of us.

People seem to forget that the number of hunters has gone way up from 15 to 30 years ago. Big game numbers cant seem to keep up. Because of this OTC tags are fewer. Sadly with more hunters some of us are gonna have to take one for the team every now and then. We may not be able to hunt everything we hoped and planned that year.

With bonus points, if more people put in with max points than there are bonus tags not everyone with max points will get a tag. But keep putting in because next year you should be getting a tag.

Just my opinion. Keep yer heads up and if you didnt draw this year there are plenty of critters to chase this fall from rabbits, coyotes, sqirrels, foxes, pheasants, quail, grouse and other tasty animal running around the hills!!!


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

You could always look for landowner antlerless tags. They are more expensive, but they are first come first serve and if you get to know the people who sell them you are *almost* guaranteed a tag every year. Plus it makes for an good experience with those new to hunting because you are usually a little more secluded on the private property.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

I drew an archery antelope tag this year with one point, I just looked at all the units I was familiar with and the ones with the best odds and applied. I'm not dead set on killing trophy book animals just something that will look nice. I think a little flexibility make it easier to draw.


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

what about that dipwad that drew my vernon tag with zero points!!!! I bet that dink doesnt even own a rifle yet!!!! hell! he said he just barely got his blue card!!! :twisted: 
I think I'll follow him around on the hunt and bang pots and pans together!!! :lol: 
(is this :mrgreen: the symbol for sarcasm? I cant remember)


Oh and one more thing, If you put your kids in WITH you as a group- that decreases their odds as it doesnt allow them to be put in the youth pool.


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## JBC2 (Jan 15, 2010)

I can understand your feelings, but you'll cash in next year.

Personally, I like Utah's draw system. My 13 year old drew a LE Archery Deer Permit last year with 0 points and we together had the hunt of our lives.


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## 1sttimer (Apr 12, 2010)

hey chet i bet your one of those guys that call the cops on his own mom for poaching arent you? just to get the free tag next year!!!!


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

> hey chet i bet your one of those guys that call the cops on his own mom for poaching arent you? just to get the free tag next year!!!!


who told you about that?


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## 1sttimer (Apr 12, 2010)

joe mamma!!!!! :evil: :evil:


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

JBC2 said:


> I can understand your feelings, but you'll cash in next year.
> 
> Personally, I like Utah's draw system. My 13 year old drew a LE Archery Deer Permit last year with 0 points and we together had the hunt of our lives.


The way that Utah's draw is set up don't expect to draw that tag next year.

It is great that your boy drew a LE tag with 0 points but what about the others that had 5,6 or more that didn't draw? I personally know of a elk hunter that drew a LE elk tag with 0 points where his father in law had 4 and didn't. He managed to get his elk and waited his 5 years to be able to put in for the draw again. He drew his second tag for the same hunt with only 2 points a couple of years later. His father in law didn't draw the tag until he had 14 points. So where is the reasoning there? Another example is a couple of years ago on a OIL hunt for bison. We saw 2 hunters that drew with 0 points where the hunter that we were with drew with 15 and I still haven't drawn with 18 points. I can see a different case with me since I am considered a nonresident but the residents of Utah are loosing out.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> The way that Utah's draw is set up don't expect to draw that tag next year.
> 
> It is great that your boy drew a LE tag with 0 points but what about the others that had 5,6 or more that didn't draw? I personally know of a elk hunter that drew a LE elk tag with 0 points where his father in law had 4 and didn't. He managed to get his elk and waited his 5 years to be able to put in for the draw again. He drew his second tag for the same hunt with only 2 points a couple of years later. His father in law didn't draw the tag until he had 14 points. So where is the reasoning there? Another example is a couple of years ago on a OIL hunt for bison. We saw 2 hunters that drew with 0 points where the hunter that we were with drew with 15 and I still haven't drawn with 18 points. I can see a different case with me since I am considered a nonresident but the residents of Utah are loosing out.


I disagree...the beauty of the system is that the draw is based on luck with those who have the most points having the most opportunity to get lucky. I like the fact that the tags just don't go to those with the most points!


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> > The way that Utah's draw is set up don't expect to draw that tag next year.
> ...


+1


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I haven't always agreed with WtoU,,,But on this point I do...

I like Utah's 50% rule,,,,,,,,,50% of permits to highest point group and 50% random.

Wyoming's 75% to top point holders put lower groups at a big disadvantage..

I also like Nevada's point system for "point Squaring" with no bonus tags ..

The absolute worst for non-res tags is Arizona.....


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## archery(aa) (Oct 2, 2007)

It could be like it was before they went to the point system and you could put in for your whole life and never draw a tag. I like the system everyone still has a chance to draw a tag and if you put in long enuff you will draw a tag.


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## ut1031 (Sep 13, 2007)

I agree that is seems unfair that someone who just put in gets a tag and you/I have been waiting years. The draw is just that and even though a person has more chances it doesn't guarantee a tag. If you are passionate about the current system, there are multiple avenues to let your voice be heard. Unless we as hunters band together and make our voice heard, things will never change. The next few years will realy make people upset with the new changes being passed. Get out and go to the RAC meetings, join BOU(Bowhunters of Utah), UWN(Utah Wildlife Cooperative) to name a few. 
kth


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

I think we need to do more than go to the RAC meetings, and half of the "sportman groups" out there are lobbying for less opportunity, to increase trophy potential for the 5 guys who buy a tag at conservation auctions. These so called "conservation groups" have a very vested interest in keeping the average joe out of the field. Every time utah produces another record book deer or elk, or god forbid, cranks out another spider bull, it means that "conservation groups" are going to pocket a bigger chunk of change selling off conservation tags, and have even more reason to try to keep you off the mountain. 

We need to get organized, we need to make it abundantly clear that there are over 100,000 voters in this state that will not tolerate or more importantly vote for, any candidate willing to allow this current system of corruption to go forward. We won't tolerate governors signing away previously public water bodies to private interests, we won't tolerate excluding the general public who funds wildlife management to be excluded from hunting to help fatten these special interest groups, and that the wildlife board is about to become a lot bigger deal than they previously thought. That we're tired of special interest groups being able to give "gifts" to wildlife board members to keep the status quo.

But it takes the average hunter and angler to get off his fatt butt, stop whining about how you don't like it, and actually do something about it. 

Seriously, do you think that if Peter Caroon's office were to get over 100,000 emails clearly stating that this is B.S. and we're not going to stand for it, he wouldn't take notice? Do you think that if 5,000 outdoorsmen were to show up unanounced at his campaign headquarters on south temple demanding a promise of change in exchange for votes he wouldn't remember that when a new piece of legislation were to come across his desk or a vacancy on the wildlife board were to be filled? 

We can either sit here and whine and watch the world go by, or we can start to enact change. Which type of guy are you?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Let's face it folks,,,We are hunting big game animals that are a limited resource..

That means we have to limit hunting pressure,,,tags, Quotas..

Other than a little wiggle room on elk, There's really no other place to add a lot of tags..
we could fight to get back a couple hundred of convention and conservation permits,
But this will certainly not fill the void..

And as far a the deer go ,, Steps need to be taken that will probably REDUCE tags available.

It's not a joke,,There's only so many tags that can be issued,,it's Just a fact of life.
And the draw system we have in place is quite fair in my opinion.


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> Let's face it folks,,,We are hunting big game animals that are a limited resource..
> 
> That means we have to limit hunting pressure,,,tags, Quotas..
> 
> ...


Agreed... nothing in life is going to be fair, somebody is always going to be the Haves and there will always be the Have-nots; fortunately with hunting that status is usually only temporary. Big game are a very limited resource, but getting more popular each season. Goofy Elk was right when he said "steps need to be taken that will probably REDUCE tags available." How "unfair" will it be then? My father put in for the LE elk hunt for 15 years and finally drew last season, I on the other hand drew on my first time putting in. It's just the was it is, it is all based on luck, and that's the way it should be.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

WasatchOutdoors said:


> But it takes the average hunter and angler to get off his fat butt, stop whining about how you don't like it, and actually do something about it.


I agree 100%! The problem is: most hunters are more than willing to whine and complain, but VERY FEW are willing to get off their collectives fat asses and do something about it. Until the apathy is turned to enough anger to motivate action, things will continue down the road of lost opportunity.



goofy elk said:


> Let's face it folks,,,We are hunting big game animals that are a limited resource.. Sadly, they are mostly 'limited' by inane management policies NOT by the big game animals themselves.
> 
> That means we have to limit hunting pressure,,,tags, Quotas..See above.
> 
> ...


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## JBC2 (Jan 15, 2010)

Critter,

I can appreciate those examples you have given. I drew a Wasatch LE Arhcery Elk permit in 2004 with 9 points and last year drew a Book Cliffs LE Archery Deer Permit with 7 points, both of which my points were top of the point pool of applicants that drew those permits.

I've fairly waited my time, but I still like the way Utah draws with the 50% going to the highest point bidders. Plus, I can archery elk and deer hunt each year with opportunities at 300-class bulls in the Open Bull areas and 190-class bucks in general units. I think the only other places better to be a resident for hunting is WY and MT. Unfortunately with my occupation, I don't have much of an opprotunity to move to either state.

Anyway, I wish you luck next year!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

It's really interesting to see and read about how this is not fair and that is not fair. All these people do is complain about them not getting theirs. They don't care about the general well beng of the herds, other hunters or anything that is not directly beneficial to them. No matter what changes are implemented they will never be satisfied.

You want a fair system? Die and go to heaven (not a threat or a wish) maybe fairness exists there. You complain about someone else being lucky in a drawing that requires tons of luck for 50% of the tags and tons of points and some luck for the other 50%. Lets clean the slate for the drawing every year like New Mexico does. If we did that, with my luck, I would never draw a tag.

Quit BEEE-OTCH-ING and take it like a man or stop hunting and improve my odds. Whoever told you that you were *ENTITLED* to a tag lied to you. *NOW SHUT UP!*


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## inbowrange (Sep 11, 2007)

Madhunter is my new IDOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## huntress (Sep 10, 2007)

HEY.
MAD HUNTER VERY WELL PUT, RUN for any public office and you will have my vote


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

inbowrange said:


> Madhunter is my new IDOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


My "Idol" is Carrie Underwood and this thread is a "Joke".

Pay the price and wait your time, or put in for tags that are easier to draw.

Take up an easier weapon to get a tag on. Archery Elk is unlimited and people can't find something to hunt in Utah?

Archery tags are much easier to draw in all catagories.


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## bigthree (Nov 28, 2009)

Iceman I know where you are coming from, most people are not expecting to draw with 0 to 5 points anyway so buy the bonus point and after 5 years then be put in to the draw pool i know some units take less points to draw but do the average,I know someone said something about arizona and how they hate that because they give there tags to the one that have the most points waited the longest,and all I say is when you pay that kind of dollars before you put 1 dollars worth of gas in truck that is a big deal I guess money grows on trees for some of you but not all, do you like it when someone cuts in front of at rubyriver because you've waited 40 minutes and someone walks in and get a table in 2 minutes,I dont care who you are you get a little pissed when that happens,same thing when somone draws with 1 or 2 points , and yes I waited 14 years to draw my tag. Im not calling anybody out here but if you have had to wait 14 years for you're first tag lets see if some of you would have that same feeling. I have 3 deer points now do I expect to draw a tag not even to be considered until i have 7 thats onther 4 years and you know what if I drew tag with 2 points Id say give it to somone thats waited for 7 years to draw anybody that knows me I would do that.those that have waited over 10 year my hat goes off to ya


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Ruby River, 40 minutes? Now who's the dumb ass? :wink: :mrgreen: 

I think analogy lacks the fact that they are very clear with the odds and methods that they use to give out tags. If the DWR said that only max point holders will be receiving tags and someone with a handful of points got one before the rest, then I'd complain, but the rest of this seems like little children bitching.


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## bigthree (Nov 28, 2009)

Im not saying only max points draw. that when you hit five then you're in that pool of 1/2 to the max guys 1/2 to the rest.And IMHOP I feel thats fair I have no problem someone drawing a tag after 5 years of waiting,Im trying to weed out the guys that draw with 0 to 4 points that we here draw a buff tag or elk with 1 or 3


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

What are you THINKING bigthree???????

The fact you have a chance of drawing a permit with 0-4 point is what makes Utah's
draw system the very best one in the Western US.......


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Critter said:


> Utah's draw system is one of the biggest jokes out their. I know of at least one moose tag that was drawn with 2 points and 5 LE elk tags with 1, go go figure. At least here in Colorado if the DOW says that it takes 5 points to draw a tag then it takes at least 5 points and not 1 or 2.


The problem is the state relies on the thousands of guys below that "cutoff" buying licenses and paying application fees in order to continue paying their salaries untill they can get ALL big game under the LE system and can then become a privately funded entity.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

elk22hunter said:


> inbowrange said:
> 
> 
> > Madhunter is my new IDOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...


So you idolize someone who openly contributes to multiple anti-hunting organizations like PETA and HSUS? OK, you just lost some major points right there Scott.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

ICEMAN2 said:


> five of us put in for general deer, with one point, NO DRAW! 16 moose points, put in for East Canyon, last year was 100% draw at 14 pts, NO DRAW! Second year with no tags at all, how are you suppose to get your children into hunting when you can't get them a tag to HUNT! I am so ready to just call it quits, Its just not worth the crap anymore! Time for a new hobby! On top of that it cost me $200 bucks in app fees and hunting liscenses to not even draw a freaking tag.


This is exactly why me AND my $$$ are spending more and more time in other states every year. Hunting deer in this state is a joke, Hunting turkeys in this state is bordering on ridiculous, I've shot a truck load of spikes and cows, :? and the upland birds... :roll: I won't even go there. This state does have a few things going for it. If your rich, you've go it made. No wolves...Yet. Waterfowling isn't bad, and it's a great place to go _look_ at big elk.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> elk22hunter said:
> 
> 
> > inbowrange said:
> ...


Ok, I am sorry. I didn't do any background checks. I simply thought of the cutest "Idol" and went with it. I was going to say Taylor Hicks but didn't want to come across as "bent".


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

what about Katherine McPhee or Kelly Clarkson?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

> Ok, I am sorry. I didn't do any background checks. I simply thought of the *cutest "Idol"* and went with it. I was going to say Taylor Hicks but didn't want to come across as "bent".


Are you saying I am not cute? My wife will have words with you Elk22!

I think we have a fair draw system. As Goofy stated I also think it's the best one in the western U.S. I don't know how eastern states work as I have never applied or hunted there. I believe that most of those complainers will always complain.

Huntress, you are not the first one that has said I should run for office. My wife, kids and other friends and family tell me the same thing. I would love to be able to run and help make the changes needed to make Utah an even better place to live, fish and hunt. Just don't know where to start.

BTW.... I didn't draw a single tag this year and I am OK with that. HAPPY HUNTING TO ALL OF YOU WHO DID.
Ramon


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> > Utah's draw system is one of the biggest jokes out their. I know of at least one moose tag that was drawn with 2 points and 5 LE elk tags with 1, go go figure. At least here in Colorado if the DOW says that it takes 5 points to draw a tag then it takes at least 5 points and not 1 or 2.
> ...


All the states that I apply in require you to either buy a hunting license and or pay an application fee to obtain points. I remember when Utah only charged around $5.00 for the application but you had to submit the whole tag fee and then wait for the draw and then for your refund. This is the way most states operate. They make money off of what you would spend for the tag for the 3 or 4 months that they have it in their bank account. My biggest gripe is that a hunter can draw 2 or more permits into a LE elk or deer area before another hunter can just draw one. I have seen this happen a couple of times and it just doesn't seam right, and you don't want to even get me started on the once in a lifetime hunts. If I didn't know any better I would swear that they are more corrupt than any politician.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

Critter said:


> TopofUtahArcher said:
> 
> 
> > Critter said:
> ...


yeah it may not seem right, but it's fair and consistent and some people are just more lucky than others!


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## PhoebeMoses (Feb 19, 2010)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> I have put in for southern rifle for the last 5 years. Still no tag. That is right, 4 preference points on a general tag. Don't feel too bad with your 1 point.


I find this hard to believe, my guess would be if you had 3 points you would have a %100 chance of drawing a southern general season deer permit even with it being a more difficult region to draw. I am a dedicated hunter so I'm not sure... maybe some one can look into this and clarify it for me, I'm sure the info is out there somewhere.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

PhoebeMoses said:


> lunkerhunter2 said:
> 
> 
> > I have put in for southern rifle for the last 5 years. Still no tag. That is right, 4 preference points on a general tag. Don't feel too bad with your 1 point.
> ...


The 2009 Draw odds list a Southern Region tag at 1 in 2.2. so even if you have the worst luck in the world you should draw every third year. Of course if you are putting in as a group it might change the results.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> The problem is the state relies on the thousands of guys below that "cutoff" buying licenses and paying application fees in order to continue paying their salaries untill they can get ALL big game under the LE system and can then become a privately funded entity.


Yup. Those wildlife biologists are in it for the money. They were sitting in college thinking, how can I get stinking rich? I know...I'll get a job with the DWR so I can stick it to hunters and make a mint. :roll:

I suggest that the DWR is the best friend that average citizens like you and me have got. But there isn't a lot they can do if we don't back them up. WasatchOutdoors is right. If you folks think you've got something to complain about now, sit there, do nothing and watch what happens in 2012.


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## bigthree (Nov 28, 2009)

So someone says that they would loose money on guys 0 to 4 points that bs 90 percent are still going to buy the point for the elk for the deer. or buf or sheep or goats. quit being greedy . perfect example 4 years ago a 72 year old guy had 12 points and what happens a guy and his kid drew the tag the dad had 2 the son had 0. doesnt draw Im telling ya its not fair guys 76 years old and now cant walk 100 yards now.Im saying let guys in to the draw at 5.I have no issue with that,there is so many people with elk points 0 to 6.


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