# Should LE tags be allowed to be returned the day before the hunt?



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Inspired by the thread Bowgy posted about his friend returning his LE SW Desert tag when the hunt starts tomorrow, do you think it is fair for a hunter to return a tag (barring deployment, physical injuries, or other emergencies) the day before their hunt starts?

I'm gonna go with a firm NO!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

It should be allowed, but progressively higher fees implemented the closer you get to the hunt start date. Imagine it costing you $280 to turn in that elk tag the day before the hunt. Probably wouldn't deter the rich guy but alot of normal folk might just decide to use the tag.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I voted for the hats just because there should be a few more options on the poll. 

My personal belief that this close to a season the only reason should be a medical or family emergency not just because you haven't found a animal you want to shoot and are a max point holder and likely will draw the tag again next year.


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## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

Actually aside from military deployment, health reasons, death in the family and a few other extremes, if you surrender your tag less than 30 days prior to the hunt, you forfeit your tag fee. http://wildlife.utah.gov/utah-licenses/170-licenses/1655-surrendered-permits-and-refunds.html


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I voted for the hats too, I think anyone wearing a flat brimmed hat hunting or fishing should have their license revoked.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

We might not all see eye to eye on the propriety of turning a LE tag back in, but it looks like we are all on the same page about flat brim hats and that is the important thing. Maybe we should propose Bowgy's idea at the next RAC meeting.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

bowgy said:


> I voted for the hats too, I think anyone wearing a flat brimmed hat hunting or fishing should have their license revoked.


lol...









-DallanC


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

I wanted to vote for the hats, but I'm currently wearing one. The hypocrisy would have just been too much.....Of all days to wear my ONE flat-brimmed hat. Edit> I just bent the brim. We're all good.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> We might not all see eye to eye on the propriety of turning a LE tag back in, but it looks like we are all on the same page about flat brim hats and that is the important thing. Maybe we should propose Bowgy's idea at the next RAC meeting.


I was telling one of my friends son that I can take the tattoos, I can take the piercings, I can even take the ponytail, but if you don't take that XXXXX hat off I going to kick you out of the boat.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Kwalk3 said:


> I wanted to vote for the hats, but I'm currently wearing one. The hypocrisy would have just been too much.....Of all days to wear my ONE flat-brimmed hat. Edit> I just bent the brim. We're all good.


The one thing worse than wearing a flat brimmed hat is when they adjust it big enough that they wear it over the top of their ears:shock:;-)


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

bowgy said:


> The one thing worse than wearing a flat brimmed hat is when they adjust it big enough that they wear it over the top of their ears:shock:;-)


I think they do that so they can't hear all the mean comments about how stupid their hat looks. It creates a "safe space" for them if you will.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I think they do that so they can't hear all the mean comments about how stupid their hat looks. It creates a "safe space" for them if you will.


I guess I relate it to the pants hanging down off their butts.


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## Mtngoat690 (Oct 29, 2014)

I know I've mentioned this before and I'm still trying to understand it. Why does it matter if someone decides to surrender their tag? I'm not trying to stir up the pot, I have looked at the rules and I can't help but think I'm missing something. Here's my thoughts some please educate me and correct me if I'm off track. 

Let's say I'm a guy that drew a tag..... for whatever reason I am not going to use the tag regardless of when I decided this. I go in fill out the paperwork and my points get restored. 
I lose my money and the DWR looks at who's next on the list. They call up the hunter B and say here's what we got do you want it. Person B says yes or no and they move forward. 

Now here's the part I get. Hunter B gets minimal amount of time to prepare, but if you are putting in for a LE or OIL tag you are probably somewhat familiar with the area I would think. Most guys I know are obsessed with the area they are hoping to draw. But let's say hunter B isn't prepared, they can turn the offer down and they move down the list. I also get that it could possibly impact the point creep as well, but to me that system is a lot like social security. If you're invested early you'll reap the benefits, but in the future it will become pretty much useless. Now I'm no math mathematician but when I look at the numbers, in the future when those thousands of people are at "max points " ,how will points benefit in the draw? 

So I guess my question is this, I have known several people who have gotten "the call" and I have yet to know one that's turned it down or been disappointed in their hunt. Is this more about being unfair to the max point holders, the guy who has 17 hours to get ready or are there other factors that I'm missing? Either way if I ever get one of those calls, I'm going regardless.

I also knew a guy that drew a LE tag didn't know the area was not in shape, went for 2 days, didn't go his way and he tossed in the hat. Now in this case I would have much rather seen that tag go to someone that would have used it regardless of where the alternate was at in the point pool.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

There should be no turn back on LE tags except for a very short list of bad life events. And we wonder why the odds keep getting worse.


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## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

OriginalOscar said:


> There should be no turn back on LE tags except for a very short list of bad life events. And we wonder why the odds keep getting worse.


This statement makes no sense. Yes the points creep is affected minimally but the person who takes the tag is then removed from the pool so the only thing it really makes a difference in is the odds report from the previous year. The report is slightly off but the odds do not change.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Mtngoat690 said:


> I know I've mentioned this before and I'm still trying to understand it. Why does it matter if someone decides to surrender their tag? I'm not trying to stir up the pot, I have looked at the rules and I can't help but think I'm missing something. Here's my thoughts some please educate me and correct me if I'm off track.
> 
> Let's say I'm a guy that drew a tag..... for whatever reason I am not going to use the tag regardless of when I decided this. I go in fill out the paperwork and my points get restored.
> I lose my money and the DWR looks at who's next on the list. They call up the hunter B and say here's what we got do you want it. Person B says yes or no and they move forward.
> ...


I would have to agree with the part about knowing an area you are putting in for, at least to a certain degree. I know the area I hunt most years quite well, but I still need to scout it ahead time, things change. So if you did not draw that tag, and are not on that unit for other reasons, you are just not familiar with what the most current conditions are.

This is why I would also have a problem with someone turning a tag in the day before the season.

But to play devils advocate, for the guy that knows that area, and gets the call, he is probably going to be ecstatic.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Flat brim hats: I just thought these were like seconds, or internet memes. I guess you learn something new everyday. I though the same thing about hehives as well, but I was wrong about that too.....


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

If it were up to me I'd let people turn it in for a full refund up to 45 days before the hunt starts. I'd let them turn it in to get their points back within 30 days of the starting date, and I'd only let them turn it in sooner than that due to bad, unforeseen circumstances.

We're slightly less than 2 months away from the Book Cliffs elk hunt I applied for, and I'm already at the point where I might have to turn it down if I was offered an alternate tag (mainly due to school). If the DWR called me up the day before... there's just no way it could happen. It would just be rubbing salt in the wound. Kind of like saying: 

"If someone had the courtesy to not apply for a hunt they weren't going to go on, you would have drawn this tag in May. You would have had plenty of time to scout, prepare, and arrange time off work and away from school. You'd be in camp right now, full of nervous anticipation and excitement as you awaited opening morning. Instead, you get to choose between taking a tag you can't really put to good use, or waiting another 10-15 years to draw it. What do you say?"


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I only logged in today so I could weigh in on the lameness of flat brimmed hats. We also need a separate poll about the lameness of that under armour blaze lime green they add on their camo. Carry on.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

the only reason you should be able to turn a tag in at any time should be you moved out of state or you died it is not fair that just because you have not seen a big bull or buck that you get to screw with another hunters opportunity!


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I really want to vote for the hats because I HATE THEM! Typically, I also don't care a whole lot for the skinny jean wearing fools with the flat brimmed hat on either...

But fashion aside, I can't really find fault with a person using the rules to their advantage. The GS Deer loop hole is the same thing, it's just playing the game. Some play the game and some complain about the players.

I'd have a big issue with it if hunter B was forced to accept the tag but they also do not have to accept a tag 17 hours before the hunt. It's all about freedom of choice.

I'm still voting for absolutely not. Personally, I feel that if you're not going to hunt the tags you put in for, don't apply but since the rules allow it, I wouldn't chastise someone for doing it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Clarq said:


> I'd let them turn it in to get their points back within 30 days of the starting date, and I'd only let them turn it in sooner than that due to bad, unforeseen circumstances.


Are these bad, unforeseen circumstances going to be articulated in the rule? Or are you suggesting some subjective review process? And what are these bad, unforeseen circumstances? I think we'd all agree that if someone was deployed, or had a medical emergency that a doctor could verify that prevents the hunter from effectively hunting, we'd be okay with that person turning a tag in and keeping their points. But what about an emergency with work? Or what if your brother that was going to be your only hunting partner and bring the horses gets arrested 6 days before the hunt? We still okay with that?

I think this rule needs to be tightened up. I don't like situations like the one that sparked this thread/poll. But as currently constituted, it's allowed by rule. So more power to him for doing it. As much as I would like to close this off, I just don't see any way you can account for all the types of "true emergencies" that could arise, and I hate the idea of a subjective review board. As much as I don't like the practice of turning in a tag because you didn't find the animal you wanted, I just don't know how to fix it, or if fixing it is even the right thing to do.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I thought about this a bit longer, and sorry if this has been mentioned. I think it should be allowed to turn in a tag anytime before the hunt starts but there should be a time limit for doing so and a penalty. Say at least 3 days before the hunt starts you can turn it in and receive your points back and earn a point for the year...However, If someone violates that time frame and turns it in a day before, *than they will not earn a point for the year* but they can have their points reinstated. Not earning a point for the year might push a few people back with others and not have a guaranteed tag for next year. Without that guaranteed tag for the next year, especially with OIL tags, it might prevent people from sitting on a tag until the day before because they can't find that monster bull. I'm sure this isn't really a large problem but a OIL tag needs to be treated as such.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The problem that I see it is that a max point holder could possibly draw the tag year after year after year if they keep turning it in just because they don't see the size of animal that they want to shoot. Perhaps if the law is changed where they don't get a point if they turn it back in would help. That way they might slip down below the max points and have to wait a couple of more years before they draw. 

There is just something wrong with a person that wants a tag for a unit and a hunt that turns it back in just because the animals don't meet their explications.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

Critter said:


> The problem that I see it is that a max point holder could possibly draw the tag year after year after year if they keep turning it in just because they don't see the size of animal that they want to shoot. Perhaps if the law is changed where they don't get a point if they turn it back in would help. That way they might slip down below the max points and have to wait a couple of more years before they draw.
> 
> There is just something wrong with a person that wants a tag for a unit and a hunt that turns it back in just because the animals don't meet their explications.


very excellent point. I wish I had thought of that. :smile: ;-)


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Let me propose some questions to all.

What is the purpose of an LE elk unit?

Why do you put in for an LE elk unit?

If it is not a chance to get a large high scoring bull why not buy any bull or spike bull tags?


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

bowgy said:


> Let me propose some questions to all.
> 
> What is the purpose of an LE elk unit?
> 
> ...


I suppose those that do not draw, already buy spike and any bull tags. I also suppose the reason LE units exist, is the OPPORTUNITY to hunt units with large bulls. OPPORTUNITY doesn't mean guarantee or slam dunk on a big bull, you HUNT hard and shoot the best bull you can or want to shoot but you at least hunt and try for that bull. But oh well, it's the rule right now and if a tag goes to waste than it is what it is. Ideally as hunters, you would like all tag holders to hunt hard and appreciate it, no matter what tag it is but it's not the end of the world.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Are these bad, unforeseen circumstances going to be articulated in the rule? Or are you suggesting some subjective review process? And what are these bad, unforeseen circumstances? I think we'd all agree that if someone was deployed, or had a medical emergency that a doctor could verify that prevents the hunter from effectively hunting, we'd be okay with that person turning a tag in and keeping their points. But what about an emergency with work? Or what if your brother that was going to be your only hunting partner and bring the horses gets arrested 6 days before the hunt? We still okay with that?


I'd keep it as it is now regarding refunds within 30 days of the hunt. Medical problems or military deployment.

I actually really like the idea utahgolf proposed. That way someone isn't totally screwed if they have a legitimate crisis or emergency, but there's enough of a disincentive that they don't just turn it in willy nilly.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

*How to Hunt for the Trophy Elk of a Lifetime*

By Clarq

1. Start out small, and apply for an archery tag for Cache Meadowville or Paunsaugunt. Get your tag, scout really hard before your hunt starts, and when you don't find that 330 bull you want, turn it in the day before the hunt starts. Repeat for 5-8 years.

2. Now you're ready for an archery tag in a better unit, like Manti or Book Cliffs. Since 330 bulls aren't as hard to come by, you may as well hold out for that 350 bull of your dreams. When you don't find it, turn your tag in the day before the season starts. Repeat 5-8 years.

3. Now you're ready for a late season rifle tag on some decent units. Scout for the 350 bull you've always wanted, and if you don't find it, turn your tag in the day before the season starts. Repeat 10-15 years.

4. Before you know it, you'll be ready for a rifle tag during the rut. At this point, you may as well hold out for a 370 bull. Scout hard, and if you don't find him, turn your tag in the day before the season starts. Repeat for another 10-20 years.

5. If you're still alive, draw a rifle tag on the San Juan (or whatever the best unit is 50 years from now). Hold out for a 400 bull. After all, you've waited all this time. Why not? Repeat until you find him or you die.

The end.

Is the current system starting to sound ridiculous yet? For the low price of $285 per year, those at the top of the point system can spend every summer/fall after a trophy bull. Maybe that sounds good to some of you with 10+ points, but it doesn't sound good to those of us who were born too late to ever really benefit from the point system. It will definitely impact point creep if people start doing it this way (and I'll bet some already are). I know I'd do it, if I could sleep at night knowing that I'd taken a lot of opportunity away from other hunters who share the same dreams I do.

Rant over.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I really don't have much issue with the system as is. I think that the vast majority of people that would turn an LE tag in because they aren't seeing the animal they like are a VERY SMALL minority. So what, they get to scout a big bull every year. The rest of us can do the same thing. They pay their $280 fee and make a donation to the state and someone else gets the chance to hunt a tag they might not get a shot at for years. What's wrong with that? Just because you can't take the tag at the drop of the hat doesn't mean someone else can't. And if the tag is unused? Well, one more elk on the mountain next year.

We all hunt for different reasons. Just because I have a certain expectation about an LE hunt doesn't mean that everyone else should have the same mindset. Who cares if the guy that takes the tag shoots a bull bigger or smaller than what I think is reasonable? It's HIS tag, and as long as he is satisfied with HIS animal, what others think is really irrelevant.

On a different note, so glad many others on this forum share the same distaste for flat brim hats as I do. Freaking hate them...like NWA or other gangster rappers were ever hunters...sheesh!


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

MWScott72 said:


> And if the tag is unused? *Well, one more person to compete with in the draw next year.*


I fixed it for you.

And I'd bet $$$ that a tag turned in the day before the season starts almost never ends up getting reassigned.

Isn't each alternate on the list entitled to a certain amount of time under the current rules? I'm pretty sure they have to make several attempts to contact an alternate. And once contacted, doesn't the alternate get a day to decide? More than likely, the alternate got a message on the phone saying he could have the tag if he could make it to a DWR office by 5:00. Maybe that was feasible for him, but odds are that it probably wasn't.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Clarq said:


> I fixed it for you.
> 
> And I'd bet $$$ that a tag turned in the day before the season starts almost never ends up getting reassigned


Its not "one more", its "the same number" as the current year.

-DallanC


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Not sure I follow. If the guy had kept the tag and hunted, I wouldn't have to compete with him in the draw next year. But if he turns it in and gets his points back, and the tag doesn't get reassigned, I would have to compete with him next year, in addition to everyone else. He is the "one more".


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Clarq said:


> Not sure I follow. If the guy had kept the tag and hunted, I wouldn't have to compete with him in the draw next year. But if he turns it in and gets his points back, and the tag doesn't get reassigned, I would have to compete with him next year, in addition to everyone else. He is the "one more".


No you competed with him this year, and if he turns it in and no-one else takes it, no-one got "removed", hence its the same number next year.

-DallanC


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Ok, how about "one more person than there would be if someone drew that tag and actually used it"?

All I'm saying is that turning in a tag the day before the hunt moves fewer people through the system, if the tag doesn't get reassigned. Fewer people through the system = more competition.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Clarq said:


> Ok, how about "one more person than there would be if someone drew that tag and actually used it"?
> 
> All I'm saying is that turning in a tag the day before the hunt moves fewer people through the system, if the tag doesn't get reassigned. Fewer people through the system = more competition.


That I agree with... but if the topic is "moving people through the system quicker", we should get rid of the mentor system. Facts are it takes so long for some people to draw a tag they are too old to actually hunt by the time they draw, so they give up and quit. With the new mentor system, "Grandpa" who cant walk 10 steps now stays in the draw so he can let his grandkid shoot the critter.

I'll bet over the next couple years as the stats come in on number of people in each tier going forward, there is a big bump of people who re-enter the draw, just so little johnny can shoot that moose/elk/bison/whatever.

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I love the idea of turning it in for any reason prior to 30 days before the hunt starts. You get your points back, and you gain a point. Less than 30 days prior to the hunt, you get your points back, but don't gain a point unless it is due to military deployment or a doctor certifies you have a newly diagnosed medical condition preventing you from hunting. 

I think that would be the most fair way to administer the program.


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## Luttio (Aug 1, 2015)

What if they have a slight curve? My wife says a slight curve is ok..


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Luttio said:


> What if they have a slight curve? My wife says a slight curve is ok..


flat brims are just the new urban sombrero. the nice thing is that you can keep all your calls stowed in that handy gap up by your temple. and if you tuck your ears inside it's almost like ship lap siding. plus, it looks super cool-/|\\-


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## Donk50cal (Mar 22, 2013)

Here's one that hasn't been mentioned: If hunter B accepts the tag(within the 24 hour window required), they are required to wait 24 hours from the Date/time issued to hunt! I once got "the call" on the opening day of the hunt. I accepted the tag, but lost a total of 2 days of the season. This was for LE Cougar, so the 2 days were not as significant as they would be in a Big Game situation. I vote for within 30 days of season open, AND loss of all points! Flat brim hats should only be allowed by Sitka wearing, lifted 4X4 driving, MossCrack supporting, 801 area code, hunting enthusiasts!:mrgreen:


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## itchytriggerfinger (Sep 12, 2007)

My brother in law got the call the day before and lost the first two days. The Dwr forgot to take his points away and after his 5 year waiting period he drew again within 2 years.......


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

itchytriggerfinger said:


> My brother in law got the call the day before and lost the first two days. The Dwr forgot to take his points away and after his 5 year waiting period he drew again within 2 years.......


Say, uhh, you wouldn't happen to recall where he keeps his hat, would you?


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

bowgy said:


> I voted for the hats too, I think anyone wearing a flat brimmed hat hunting or fishing should have their license revoked.


I'll be ridiculous.

I like flat brim hats.

I said it.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I'll be ridiculous.
> 
> I like flat brim hats.
> 
> I said it.


Wow man! That takes guts to stand up and come out like that. 

As to the question, I'd be more okay with surrendering a tag right before the hunt if the person did not gaining a point for the year if it's turned it in within a week of the hunt. My reasoning being the same as other people who are on board with that kind of system.

As things stand now, I can't fault people turning their tag in if they don't see what they like. It's within the rules. I think it's a pretty selfish thing to do, but whatever. Like others have said, I don't think it's a real large percentage of people doing that, and the next guy in line has the option of saying, "no thank you."


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I'll be ridiculous.
> 
> I like flat brim hats.
> 
> I said it.


It's just a hat.......it is not the downfall of society......OR is it?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Let me say this.. My dad drew a Henry's tag this year. He has literally waited his entire life for that tag. He has scouted the area for the past few years. He had an emergency surgery in July, and the recovery timeline, and the hunt timeline, weren't for sure lining up. THE VERY NEXT WEEK, he took his tag back. There was no question in his mind that if he had any doubt, he should give someone the opportunity of a lifetime, and a fair timeline to do it.


Not every circumstance is the same. I just believe there are guys who would have held on to the tag, knowing they can always change there mind, and I don't think thats right. Now, that's a medical example. I really don't like the idea that I can spend an entire summer scouting, then decide the bull, buck, weather, etc isn't what I want so Im turning in my tag. I get it, you waited a long time and want the perfect opportunity.... But putting in for that tag is a commitment. That's why I don't mind other states charging fees up front, then returning them if you don't draw. Put up or shut up lol.... 

Just my .02.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

bowgy said:


> It's just a hat.......it is not the downfall of society......OR is it?


Hat of Deplorables aka the alt right hat.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

bowgy said:


> I was telling one of my friends son that I can take the tattoos, I can take the piercings, I can even take the ponytail, but if you don't take that XXXXX hat off I going to kick you out of the boat.


I can't believe no one has brought up man buns! Yuk!!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

I think that the current rule works fine. Changing it now is a solution in search of a problem. We could think of a thousand reasons why it "could" be bad to turn in a tag before the day of a hunt but the bottom line is it nearly never happens and when it does no one notices. If it ever becomes a problem then it would be time to change the rule.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> I can't believe no one has brought up man buns! Yuk!!


You mean douche knots?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

martymcfly73 said:


> You mean douche knots?


I thought they were perfectly acceptable as long as they are a mixture of back and crack hair?

...oh wait, those are dingleberries. Kids these days, have to have a word for everything.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

martymcfly73 said:


> You mean douche knots?


Yep, those things! Much worse than flat brim hats.


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