# Poacher caught with GPS device



## copper

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=5853347



> A trapper accused of illegally killing bobcats is challenging the use of a GPS device that was attached to his truck as he visited dozens of trap lines in northern Utah.
> 
> Lawyers for Jared Beal, 41, of North Ogden, say game wardens weren't justified in using the Global Positioning Device, which they surreptitiously attached to his truck at his home.


Great, now he is going to get off and continue killing bobcats...


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

I don't approve if he did in fact poach those cats however if his constitutional rights were violated by law enforcement then he deserves a walk. A gps unit does not tell if he violated any law only identifies the area in which he was setting his traps.There has to be limits on what g-men can do in their puruit of enforcing our laws for obvious reasons.


----------



## Huge29

That is so silly that they would just do that w/o a warrant. I would assume that if they had enough evidence to be suspicious it may be enough for a warrant. The officers deserve a swift kick somewhere painful in being so ignorant. Not that that excuses the behavior at all...


----------



## cornerfinder

I am going to have to disagree. They must have had probable cause to put a tattle tail on his outfit, If this guy is steeling from John Q Public. I know several dudes that I know are poaching, if you follow them they don’t poach. To catch an egg sucking coy dog you must be more cunning than them. Its only secondary evidence but it protects all of us in the long run. I say the ends justifies the means. :evil:


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

It is exactly that line of thinking that has brought America to the brink of collapse Cornerfinder.The constitutional protections put in place have to be protected at all costs.It is better for 1000 guilty people to escape the jaws of justice than for one innocent to be wrongfully condemned.If you know someone is poaching and haven't reported it you are just as guilty as the poacher.Something about the gov't using satellites to track citizens bothers me. Nothing better than having an actual witness to the crime and they could have accomplished it with a little more old fashioned detective work and a little less technology.


----------



## cornerfinder

I can certainly understand your frustration. I hope you can try to understand mine. It is of my opinion that big brother keep his nose out of my business. I think most folks on this site are probably woodsmen. That being said, in this instance its probably not inappropriate for OUR law enforcement officials to utilize the cheapest means necessary. Quite frankly the only means available. To apprehend these guys. When I enter the woods I know every one of gods creatures within a rifle shot. These guys know. They cover there trail. Some one must have turned them in. they must have some idea. Its not like they drive into some random subdivision and say lets track this truck. As far as turning in the individuals who I (allegedly) think are poaching, short of big brother kicking in the door and saying wow look at all these hides, what else can you do? Don’t get me wrong if these guys were shooting a doe or a buck because they were hungry I would help them dress the thing. But they are making a profit by not obeying the law. So by all means send these guys a message, even the trees are watching. It is a double edged blade I do admit. Do you have any suggestions?


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

Call the DWR poaching line give them names addresses and as many details as possible and let the idiots pay the price. I have followed this other incident since the guy was arrested and it looks like he was in violation but the agents screwed up when they went on his property to place the GPS unit if they would have waited until he parked on the street or some other public area they would have been ok. They got onto him because he registered a large amount of bobcat pelts in Wyoming but couldn't describe in detail where he had harvested the cats. Regardless of the cost of an investigation it is a small price to pay to live up to the ideas and principals set forth in the constitution.


----------



## Huge29

cornerfinder said:


> I am going to have to disagree. They must have had probable cause to put a tattle tail on his outfit, If this guy is steeling from John Q Public.


That is exactly my point, with probable cause they should have been able to do it right so that this loser can be pegged to the wall. It sounds from the limited info in the article that the protocol was not followed and now this guilty guy will go free to continue poaching.


----------



## EmptyNet

Any good poacher knows that you should have one of these in your truck.:lol: http://www.mightygps.com/GPSJammers.htm


----------



## copper

You can't put something on another person's vehicle without their consent or a proper warrant regardless of where the vehicle is parked because the vehicle is still his private property and any infringement is to trespass. 

I as a person would be prosecuted under felony statutes if I placed a GPS device on another persons car regardless of my reasoning for it. 

If the government derives all it's powers from the people, what gives them the right to do it without a court issued warrant?


----------



## bird buster

I think it's too bad that the evidence collected was done wrong. Bottom line this guy should lose his hunting rights, and be fined for poaching. If this guy does walk, he'll be caught again. Once a poacher, always a poacher. This guy will be watched by the fish and game the rest of his life. He'll slip up and do it again.


----------



## Crazyhuntinman

And just think about this, anyone of us that is carrying a cell phone has a tracking device on them selves. No need for a seperate gps unit, that is if you remain in a coverage zone


----------



## bigbr

*Above the law,*

This is an example of one reason I stopped trapping in Utah. There are handful of DWR officers that trap in Utah, I guess to kill time and supplement their income on free government gas. There are many DWR officers that would love to outlaw trapping all together and a few officers that will ticket you on sight if they see you or find you trapping. There are three officers in the DWR that give it a bad rap and have no business wearing a badge, one from the Vernal area and has since been fired and hopefully the other from Fillmore will retire or demise which ever comes first by natural attrition. I can not tell you the number of times my legal cats and equipment have been stolen by the so called men of the clothe. I caught the SOB from the Vernal office red handed with my traps in hand one day and he lied threw his teeth about it even as I reported it to his superiors. Latter I was exonerated and an apology was offered by this same superior officer as further events lead to the man in question being fired. After totaling two DWR vehicles in a high speed chase without lights at night and then arresting the sheriffs wife at night for speeding, this bad boy was sent over to SLC for attitude adjustment training and soon after was told to quit or be fired. I think that the officer in question got the latter by the DWR.

Constitutional rights apply to everyone and including criminals and a lot of murders and drug dealers have been let free with a lot less infraction performed in the name of the law.

Having trapped for many a year and seen the fabrications of evidence used against law abiding sportsmen/trappers in this state, I would be the first one to discount any story that originated from the mouths of the DWR on trapping violation and I would side with this trapper with what has been written and presented so far. Might even send him a few bucks for his legal defense as I know that the DWR will hold this over until they can get Judge Roy Bean out of Pleasant Grove to try the case. Judge Bean, you see is the DWR's special appointed hangman judge that would hang you for a nickel if he thought he would get a free guided fishing trip out of the deal from our men of the clothe. DWR has a nack of holding over certain cases and trying them with old Roy, kind of like throwing the Christians to the lions in the Roman Empire days.

Well I hope that this trapper sues and gets awarded ten million dollars for this injustice as it will only be a minor penance for the atrocities that have been fabricated against honest trappers in the past.

Big


----------



## proutdoors

WOW!


----------



## cornerfinder

While I tend to agree that there are a few to many law wildlife officers brought up on heavy environmental rhetoric. We have to look to our officers who we employ to look out for the best interest, not only the public but as stewards of our precious lands. Many make there living from the land, trappers are but one small part of that equation. I (we) have to put our trust in our officials. Like the few bad eggs that spoil it for the rest of us, those judges and law enforcement officers AND poachers who take way to many fish, bobcats etc. etc. will get there just rewards. I will take this as a call to arms, I will be vigilant in looking for those unsavory officials. But contrary what your experience may have been is it not possible some one turned in this guy for behavior unbecoming to sportsmen?


----------



## bigbr

cornerfinder said:


> While I tend to agree that there are a few to many law wildlife officers brought up on heavy environmental rhetoric. We have to look to our officers who we employ to look out for the best interest, not only the public but as stewards of our precious lands. Many make there living from the land, trappers are but one small part of that equation. I (we) have to put our trust in our officials. Like the few bad eggs that spoil it for the rest of us, those judges and law enforcement officers AND poachers who take way to many fish, bobcats etc. etc. will get there just rewards. I will take this as a call to arms, I will be vigilant in looking for those unsavory officials. But contrary what your experience may have been is it not possible some one turned in this guy for behavior unbecoming to sportsmen?


Cornerfinder,

Anything is possible and yes maybe this guy was turned in, however, having been a trapper and knowing the sport and many people evolved, my experience and common sense tells me that the books are being cooked here. For instance, this part of the article:

"Authorities say Beal was exceeding his bobcat quota in Utah and selling 60 or more pelts a year in Wyoming, which has fewer restrictions on the fur trade. A single luxurious pelt can go for more than $1,000. "

This is the standard quote given by the DWR to the news media in almost every publicized trapping violation that the DWR chooses to bring to light and make examples of. First off, I am a few years dated here, but Utah is the only western state to restrict the numbers of bobcats to four a year. There is no solid biological data for restricting to this number other than uninformed DWR officials and incompetent research. Some fifteen years ago the DWR set a side the region of the state north of the Jericho sand duns to study bobcats. This area was closed to all trapping for four or five years and the only person allowed to trap was the DWR and its hired people. The DWR hired a houndsmen from Nephi, who by the way had limited trapping experience at the time, and in four years live trapped four bobcats, which was used as conclusive evidence that the bobcat population was in decline. Was the bobcat population in Utah in trouble at that time? No not even close!! I trapped in an area next to this and other areas of the state and bobcat trapping was and numbers were actually climbing.

Next in twenty five years, I have never seen a prime choice cat sell in Utah or anywhere else for $1,000.! This figure is urban legend based on 1980 pricing that at one time premium bobcat pelt would bring up to $800, but has long since been demolished by PETA and other environmental groups storming Hollywood and demanding that people not buy furs. Premium cat on today's market may fetch $150 with an average cat bring between $50 and $90 dollars and use to be that States like CO, WY,NV and AZ had no seasonal limits for bobcats and long line trappers tended to work out of those state. Utah was for the most part only used by recreational trappers or people who would buy tags for every member of there family and in their neighborhood, which was a direct benefit to the DWR because of the tags sold, many are left unfilled.

I have post many times in the past about my experiences and run-ins on the DWR forum, and if you would like, you may still be able to find some, so I wont take up that time or space, however, I would like to add two things to my credibility. I taught a current board member the ropes of bobcat trapping and I was taught by the best trapper in several states as proven at the fur sales. Second, I have never had a trapping violation that was not dismissed in court issued in my name, I trapped ethically and legally. I would also like to add that most trappers that get a violation ticket get every violation under the sun thrown at them at one time in order to use the shotgun approach and to make them appear to be worse than Charles Manson. Trapping is a dying art and that is because it is no longer politically correct and the Utah Trappers Association has Gomer and Goober Pile as their front men.

Having seen first hand the actions of our government and especially it's agencies, I DO not share the same trust and confidence in them. One just needs turn on the TV to see how well we are protected.
Respectfully&#8230;.Big


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

I agree with you on this one big. Wyoming alerted Utah when he tried to register pelts and could not say in detail where he had captured the cats. At least that is what was reported.I have my doubts about the veracity of that information as well. Seems to me if a guy knows enough about the process he would have his ducks in a row and be prepared to answer any questions asked of him. This case demonstrates the conundrum that amazes me all the time how otherwise intelligent people blindly believe anything said by gov't officials even when the statement is ridiculous as pointed out by Big. I have no love for law breakers but I despise gov't officials that violate constitutional rights to gain a conviction. As far as I am concerned gov't employees who violate a persons constitutional rights in pursuit of a conviction should be charged with treason and punished accordingly.


----------



## utahcoyote

Bigbr

Your info seems to be a little bit incorrect. Your dollar numbers are way off based on the last 7 years. Also you claim the men leading the UTA are Gomer and Goober Pile. I would venture to guess at this exact moment you do not know 1 single man leading this organization. Maybe back in your day but not today. I am impressed that you know about that bobcat study though, and are reasonably correct on it.


----------



## GaryFish

This is a very interesting thread here. I'm enjoying it. I know very little about trapping or anything related to it so I appreciate this learning experience. Thanks gentlemen. I'll just sit back and read more as it goes along. Thanks!


----------



## Oldtimehtr

Bigbr
Interesting comments. I agree with with some of what you say but have to take issue with your characterization of the UTA leadership as "Gomer and Goomer Pile." You are entitled to your opinion with regards to these men but you are off-base with your criticism. 

You are also a bit out dated on your fur prices. The top cat in the '08 UTA fur sale went for $1060 if memory serves. Top cat at the sale last Feb. was around $600, no doubt due to the state of our economy. Obviously, it has been a few years since you planted a trap.

The fish cop crowd is like any other; always a few bad ones to give all the others a bad rap. My approach has always been to know and obey the law and avoid fish cops whenever possible. The few I have encountered with a major power surg to assert their authority have soured me on all of them. 

Interesting thread/comments and it will interesting to see where this GPS plant approach to law enforcement goes. Wait and see.


----------



## bigbr

utahcoyote said:


> Bigbr
> 
> Your info seems to be a little bit incorrect. Your dollar numbers are way off based on the last 7 years. Also you claim the men leading the UTA are Gomer and Goober Pile. I would venture to guess at this exact moment you do not know 1 single man leading this organization. Maybe back in your day but not today. I am impressed that you know about that bobcat study though, and are reasonably correct on it.


Utahcoyote,
you maybe right about not knowing the UTA leaders of today and as I posted above, it has been a few years since I put traps to bed. I would hope that UTA has new leadership and has grown some backbone. If the front men are still residing in Monroe and Tooele, then I know them well and have a very intresting story to tell about them both, but that is for another post.......Big


----------



## bigbr

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> I agree with you on this one big. Wyoming alerted Utah when he tried to register pelts and could not say in detail where he had captured the cats. At least that is what was reported.I have my doubts about the veracity of that information as well. Seems to me if a guy knows enough about the process he would have his ducks in a row and be prepared to answer any questions asked of him. This case demonstrates the conundrum that amazes me all the time how otherwise intelligent people blindly believe anything said by gov't officials even when the statement is ridiculous as pointed out by Big. I have no love for law breakers but I despise gov't officials that violate constitutional rights to gain a conviction. As far as I am concerned gov't employees who violate a persons constitutional rights in pursuit of a conviction should be charged with treason and punished accordingly.


If the Utah DWR truly suspect this trapper of transporting Utah bobcats to Wyoming to sell as Wyoming harvests and they had evidence to prove? Then why wasn't the US Fish and Wildlife investigators assigned to the case? This is a federal violation of the Lacey Act and carries much stiffer federal statutes than would be imposed by the state. And here is the answer.... The DWR went fishing and got there hands caught in the trap without probable cause or court order to implant tracking devises. Why wasn't our friendly US Fish and Wildlife investigator Dominick Super D brought in and planted as an undercover agent? Because the last time this stunt was pulled it went before Federal court judge Sam and was thrown out and the agencies involved got their buts chewed. Judge Sam does not run a kangaroo court like Roy and the boys have set up on the state level...........Big


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

You pointed out several things I was thinking about Big. Thats why I said I had doubts about what was reported. Just for the sake of postulating a little I wonder if the rest of the story might have something to do with payoffs or kickback demands that were refused. The whole situation stinks to high heaven!


----------



## cornerfinder

Ok. Let’s just say for a second you are correct that the DWR is out of control. 
This is by far far worse that an illegal trapper. There will always be poachers. But to say our government agency’s our out to get us. This is huge. 
So scientifically I need to disprove this before I discredit it. If you or anybody else has any tangible proof of misbehavior I will be the first on the capitol steps. These people are not elected so how are they put into there position? They are appointed by whom? The governor? Is there any citizen’s council? If so are you apart of said council.
So how do we effect change? That is ultimately the question.
I come from a plain old ******* family, and they like so many of you seem to be of the attitude the government is out to get them. I think that’s nonsense. Like you, I have a long list of things I would like to see changed. That is an entirely different thread. 
We need to regulate the harvesting of animals. Plain and simple. How do we do that so that all interests are met? If we do need change, how dose an average hunter, trapper go about that? And last but not least other than studies that you don’t happen to agree with (granted you may be right) how are we supposed to know proper management numbers?


----------



## shotgunwill

Attaching a GPS to his truck, is kinda like what those cops in W. Valley City(I think) did to people while they were in the bar. I think the way it went was, they marked their tires with some special paint, and the later pulled those cars over as the saw them. 

The GPS would have only given away where the naughtiness was occurring, as was previously stated, but IMO is a NO NO, and an infringement of his rights. 

In hindsight, it's probably pretty **** scary how technology can be and is used to infringe upon our rights.


----------



## proutdoors

shotgunwill said:


> In hindsight, it's probably pretty **** scary how technology can be and is used to infringe upon our rights.


A-freaking-men!


----------



## Huge29

proutdoors said:


> shotgunwill said:
> 
> 
> 
> In hindsight, it's probably pretty **** scary how technology can be and is used to infringe upon our rights.
> 
> 
> 
> A-freaking-men!
Click to expand...

Yes, but the end justifies the means, I put a couple of them on some guy's trucks who always get big bucks, so now I will know exactly where to hunt

:wink: :mrgreen:


----------



## proutdoors

*OOO* -BaHa!-


----------



## shotgunwill

Is there a sale on tin-foil hats at Ream's?


----------



## TAK

This is not the first time something like this has been challenged... for sure not the last, but for those who are worried... get ya one of them GPS Blockers
The Supreme Court ruled on many case such as this..... 

I don't think he will be walking on this! The Crook that is! 8)


----------



## bigbr

cornerfinder said:


> Ok. Let's just say for a second you are correct that the DWR is out of control.
> This is by far far worse that an illegal trapper. There will always be poachers. But to say our government agency's our out to get us. This is huge.
> So scientifically I need to disprove this before I discredit it. If you or anybody else has any tangible proof of misbehavior I will be the first on the capitol steps. These people are not elected so how are they put into there position? They are appointed by whom? The governor? Is there any citizen's council? If so are you apart of said council.
> So how do we effect change? That is ultimately the question.
> I come from a plain old ******* family, and they like so many of you seem to be of the attitude the government is out to get them. I think that's nonsense. Like you, I have a long list of things I would like to see changed. That is an entirely different thread.
> We need to regulate the harvesting of animals. Plain and simple. How do we do that so that all interests are met? If we do need change, how dose an average hunter, trapper go about that? And last but not least other than studies that you don't happen to agree with (granted you may be right) how are we supposed to know proper management numbers?


cornerfinder,

Please do not imply that I am saying that poaching never happens, I am not. People do poach and it is not right and I do not condone it and would be the first to turn that person in. The point that you are missing here is that Trapping and trappers are looked upon, as our Senator from West Valley City puts it: "The black baby in the room." Instead of being viewed as a viable resource for predator control, trappers are viewed as trailer trash by a majority of the DWR law enforcement and many have and do go out of their way to target trappers. I have given you more than enough leads that you can research and find facts. Other than Judge Samuel, I have not given any real names, but from the locations (towns) I have given you should be able to figure it out, and if not I am sorry.

Predators are a little different in gathering numerical density data and for this reason gross estimates are sometimes and mostly used. Alaska probably has the most reliable scientific means of gathering population density on bears using hair snags and DNA analysis. Most of the predator computer modeling data for predators are 6 to 10 years or older and not really representative of current population. Very limited budget for the study of predators, most of the money is put in to the cash crops. You will never hear very high predator estimate give by wildlife departments, because if the number goes above a certain number then department of agriculture can step in and control and regulate.

Trappers are truly a hidden trove of knowledge that is really discounted by our DWR, because who better has real live data on the type and numbers of predators in their trapping areas. I use to trap the central west desert in areas that the biologist said that no mountain lions inhabited. I got so tied of picking up lions in my #4's that I switched to smaller traps and still caught lions in areas that were not suppose to hold them. When you are seeing lions, bears and predators in broad day light and roaming the streets of our cities and towns then we have over population and need to allow more hunting/trapping to occur. I can trap loins all day long, but do you ever think that this state will pull their head out of their hind-end and let trappers harvest cougars? Hell NO!	It is easier to brand trappers as vermin than use them as a viable resource.

If you really want to know about wildlife, then start trapping, it is a good way to find deer and elk on the winter range, the only down side is you need to spend the time and research to know how or make freinds with a good trapper who will show you how and the price of gas.....Big


----------



## cornerfinder

To that I do agree! Trappers should be allowed to trap lions. Our brethren the Hounds-men say that the population is very low. is that your take? Is the population of lions low? Forgive me if you thought I was insinuating that you believe poaching doesn’t happen, it dose and always will. In this economy I suspect it will continue at a grater rate. Furthermore I don’t think they should have been allowed to use a tracking device without a court order. I do however think that it is a great arrow in there quiver. I hope they use whenever they can. 

Corner


----------



## proutdoors

bigbr said:


> If you really want to know about wildlife, then start trapping, it is a good way to find deer and elk on the winter range, the only down side is you need to spend the time and research to know how or make freinds with a good trapper who will show you how and the price of gas.....Big


I agree with that, I learned more from trapping in high school with an old trapper than anywhere else.


----------



## c.rhea

> Furthermore I don't think they should have been allowed to use a tracking device without a court order.


Rest assured....*they had a warrant signed by a judge to use the device*. I am not sure why people started thinking the device would be used without one.


----------



## bigbr

c.rhea
Rest assured....[b]they had a warrant signed by a judge to use the device[/b]. I am not sure why people started thinking the device would be used without one.[/quote]
[URL="http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/taah-v-20080530.html said:


> http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/taah-v-20080530.html[/URL]
> 
> C Rhea,
> 
> I have yet to find any information as to your statement that the tracking devise was court ordered. But lets just for a minute assume that it was. First off I have looked into the record of the accused looking for prior convictions and can find no felony convictions in the past. The current charges are still pending. If this was court ordered it was done in state circuit court, most likely issued by Judge Roy Bean himself and issued without cause because the accused, as I can ascertain has no past felony record and it is my understanding that a felony must have been committed in order to proceed with the court issued order to install a tracking device. The Accused is being charged for the wanton destruction of bobcats, which means that he was most likely not in possession of bobcats at the time of arrest or he would be charge with possession and destruction which carry misdemeanor A, charges for each count. The DWR pushed threw legislature back in 1998 that a felony can be charged for destruction of wildlife if it exceeds a certain dollar amount. Under current law, this means that you can receive a felony charge for killing a four point buck that has a spread of 24 inches if it is killed on the highway with your car. This type of reasoning is most likely the felony charges being sought after in this case, especially if the DWR have assigned a value to a bobcat of $1000 in restitution, but having no further information, I can only assume this conclusion.
> 
> I can however tell you that a very good and personal friend of mine was tried in almost the exact same way and the arresting officer tried to pin every un-identified trapping violation and furbear death in the state on him for the time frame up and to his arrest. Most likely the same tactics are being employed by the DWR in the accused case here. If I were his lawyer, I would make **** sure that each count of wanton waste corresponded to the GPS coordinates listed on the court filings and then sue them for breach of character, after the case is thrown out due to an illegal surveillance device being planted on personal property.
> 
> "Beal is believed to have trapped more than 24 bobcats, but authorities declined to reveal a specific number. He used additional permits in the names of family and friends."
> 
> When I was trapping this was not an issue as long as each person having tags had their trap number attached to the trap in question.
> 
> "Investigators were tipped when Beal was selling 60 or more bobcat pelts a year in Wyoming, which has fewer restrictions. The Wyoming pelts are not included in the charges."
> 
> Again, why if the DWR has evidence that wildlife was crossing state boarders illegally, then why was this not tried under the Lacey Act and in federal court and turned over to the US fish and wildlife services?&#8230;..and in my above post I have already answered this question. Would it also be safe to assume that the accused had proper tags and licensing to take and harvest furbearers in the State of Wyoming, which would give Wyoming wildlife officials no reason to even inform the State of Utah that the accused sold 60 bobcats at a Wyoming sale as no law had been broken nor was the accused charge with any violations in Wyoming or by the Federal Fish and Wildlife Services.
> 
> "''It's been a horrible year for bobcat trappers this season, except for Jared," said Kip King, investigator in the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources.
> ''A lot of very good trappers didn't even get six this season. ... I think he's impacted the bobcat population in northern Utah, absolutely," King said. "
> 
> This quote has made for TV all over it&#8230;..and we wonder why the antis want all hunting and trapping banned. Note the above site listed and the organization that I got this information from!
> 
> If Mr. King representing The DWR and they truly believe the statement from Mr. King to be true, then I will support PETA in calling for a ban on all bobcat trapping and harvesting in the state of Utah and move that the Federal Fish and wildlife list the Rufus Lynx as our bobcat is referred too, as endangered under the endangered species act. This is utter bull $hit!
> 
> I have reason to believe that this man from Ogden is being charge for many offences he did not or could have not committed and I surly hope that he has a competent attorney. It is one thing to receive a legitimate trapping violation, but truly injustice when, by all apparent evidence, the person is being FRAMED by a blow hard law enforcement officer that has not got the moral fiber to be in a room with minor children&#8230;.. and then using our courts to justify his prejudice.
> In my opinon...Big


----------



## c.rhea

> The Accused is being charged for the wanton destruction of bobcats, which means that he was most likely not in possession of bobcats at the time of arrest or he would be charge with possession and destruction which carry misdemeanor A, charges for each count. The DWR pushed threw legislature back in 1998 that a felony can be charged for destruction of wildlife if it exceeds a certain dollar amount.


You can be charged with wanton destruction whether you have an animal in possession or not. The division does not set restitution... Those on the hill do. A bobcat has rest value of 350.00. This makes one bobcat a Class A. More than one cat pushes it over the 500.00 limit and up to a felony.



> you can receive a felony charge for killing a four point buck that has a spread of 24 inches if it is killed


It doesn't matter how many points it has, just spread.

I am still not seeing anywhere that says the device was used without a warrant. One ? I have is where do you see the subject needs to have a felony on his record to have a device used?


----------



## bigbr

c.rhea said:


> The Accused is being charged for the wanton destruction of bobcats, which means that he was most likely not in possession of bobcats at the time of arrest or he would be charge with possession and destruction which carry misdemeanor A, charges for each count. The DWR pushed threw legislature back in 1998 that a felony can be charged for destruction of wildlife if it exceeds a certain dollar amount.
> 
> 
> 
> You can be charged with wanton destruction whether you have an animal in possession or not. The division does not set restitution... Those on the hill do. A bobcat has rest value of 350.00. This makes one bobcat a Class A. More than one cat pushes it over the 500.00 limit and up to a felony.
> 
> [quote:12noogr2]you can receive a felony charge for killing a four point buck that has a spread of 24 inches if it is killed
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter how many points it has, just spread.

I am still not seeing anywhere that says the device was used without a warrant. One ? I have is where do you see the subject needs to have a felony on his record to have a device used?[/quote:12noogr2]

From your post, I find it hard to determin your point?


----------



## c.rhea

I just find it interesting that when someone gets caught or allegedly caught doing something wrong, some people jump all over certain things that they do not know anything about. Then they run with it. All the details of the case are not in any news report. You don't have them and Joe public doesn't either. Some people take anything and start typing away without knowing what really happened. It bugs me a little. I wish people, on here and media, would get all the details before spouting off. 

BTY I am a fish cop.


----------



## bigbr

c.rhea said:


> I just find it interesting that when someone gets caught or allegedly caught doing something wrong, some people jump all over certain things that they do not know anything about. Then they run with it. All the details of the case are not in any news report. You don't have them and Joe public doesn't either. Some people take anything and start typing away without knowing what really happened. It bugs me a little. I wish people, on here and media, would get all the details before spouting off.
> 
> BTY I am a fish cop.


If you are in a position to enlighten us as to the facts, then by all means do so! I am always willing to except constructive criticism; however, because this has not been settled in court, I freely admit that my opinion is limited to what has been available to the general public. I also have first hand experiences dealing with the DWR enforcment officers and their enforcement of trapping violations and would be happy to sit down with you and your director and discuss them.
Respectfully Big


----------



## TAK

*BigBr your ignorance is Bliss!*

The Lacey Act of 1900, or more commonly The Lacey Act, 16 U.S.C. § 3371-3378, is a conservation law introduced by Iowa Rep. John F. Lacey. It was signed into law by President William McKinley on May 25th, 1900. The Lacey Act has been amended several times. The most significant times were in 1969, 1981, and in 1989.

At the turn of the century, illegal commercial hunting threatened many game species in the United States. The law prohibited the transportation of illegally captured or prohibited animals across state lines. It was the first federal law protecting wildlife, and is still in effect, though it has been revised several times. Today the law is primarily used to prevent the importation or spread of potentially dangerous non-native species.

The Lacey Act was amend as of May 22, 2008, when the The Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008, effective May 22, 2008, expanded its protection to a broader range of plants and plant products (Section 8204. Prevention of Illegal Logging Practices). The Lacey Act makes it unlawful to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce any plant in violation of the laws of the United States, a State, an Indian tribe, or any foreign law that protects plants.

*ONLY taking a shot in the dark here but I am going to guess that the DWR is in contact with the Feds on this and more charges will be coming down the pike! Plus as the DWR officers have done is recovered pelts from the perp in his home in UTAH, making them pelts STATE JURISDICTION! Further more by having a warant to place the tracking device only adds some nails to the coffin, yet I believe that he would be convicted by jury for his crimes without it!!!!
Also, I am lost in your thoughts of way a person would have to have a felony level conviction to have a gps tracking unit attached to your vehicle? :?: *


----------



## bigbr

TAK said:


> *BigBr your ignorance is Bliss!*
> 
> The Lacey Act of 1900, or more commonly The Lacey Act, 16 U.S.C. § 3371-3378, is a conservation law introduced by Iowa Rep. John F. Lacey. It was signed into law by President William McKinley on May 25th, 1900. The Lacey Act has been amended several times. The most significant times were in 1969, 1981, and in 1989.
> 
> At the turn of the century, illegal commercial hunting threatened many game species in the United States. *The law prohibited the transportation of illegally captured or prohibited animals across state lines*. It was the first federal law protecting wildlife, and is still in effect, though it has been revised several times. Today the law is primarily used to prevent the importation or spread of potentially dangerous non-native species.
> 
> The Lacey Act was amend as of May 22, 2008, when the The Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008, effective May 22, 2008, expanded its protection to a broader range of plants and plant products (Section 8204. Prevention of Illegal Logging Practices). The Lacey Act makes it unlawful to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce any plant in violation of the laws of the United States, a State, an Indian tribe, or any foreign law that protects plants.
> 
> *ONLY taking a shot in the dark here but I am going to guess that the DWR is in contact with the Feds on this and more charges will be coming down the pike! Plus as the DWR officers have done is recovered pelts from the perp in his home in UTAH, making them pelts STATE JURISDICTION! Further more by having a warant to place the tracking device only adds some nails to the coffin, yet I believe that he would be convicted by jury for his crimes without it!!!!
> Also, I am lost in your thoughts of way a person would have to have a felony level conviction to have a gps tracking unit attached to your vehicle? :?: *


Tak,

I guess if my ignorance is bliss, your ability to read maybe do to the mud on your bifocals.

Why would the attorney for the accused be seeking to have this overturned if in fact as our friends of the clothe have so diligently TRIED in COURT of public opinion to convince the public that the accused was transporting Protected BOBCATS from UTAH over to WYOMING to sale as Wyoming bobcat harvests?

Because this very act of transportation is a VIOLATION of the LACEY ACT and carries a felony with it if convicted. I believe that it was for this reason that the DWR went before a circuit court judge to get a surveillance device order and captain kangaroo may have granted it. However, wanton destruction charges of wildlife is not possession of the same animal, and if the suspect would have had these bobcats in his possession he would have been charged for possession of an illegally harvested animal. And I do not see anyway that could have been proven through PRIMA FICA or otherwise that the DWR could prove its need for a GPS device without proving that a federal transport crime was committed and that requires possession....... My assumption is that the men of the clothe got the cart before the horse on this one and I unlike you, I think that he would not be found guilty under a trial by Jury. The sad fact of the matter is that as has happened in the past, the DWR uses procedural maneuvering to the point that one losses their time to petition for a trial by jury and the verdict is left up to judicial rule.

If I am not mistaken, the right to privacy along with due process and illegal search and seizure are all constitutional rights that can not be usurped under state law. One might keep in mind that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

One might also consider that once all trapping, hunting and fishing have been declared illegal we will not need many FISH COPS as the state will be under round the clock surveillance by satellite and drone aircraft and we will all be wearing GPS ankle bracelets as new Obama apparel.

I would rather be blissful than stupid......Big


----------



## TAK

bigbr said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> 
> *BigBr your ignorance is Bliss!*
> Tak,
> 
> I guess if my ignorance is bliss, your ability to read maybe do to the mud on your bifocals.
> 
> Why would the attorney for the accused be seeking to have this overturned if in fact as our friends of the clothe have so diligently TRIED in COURT of public opinion to convince the public that the accused was transporting Protected BOBCATS from UTAH over to WYOMING to sale as Wyoming bobcat harvests? You really have not a clue of how the court system works do you? It is the prosecution job to PROVE(present the evidence) the case, and it is the defense to challenge the evidence
> 
> Because this very act of transportation is a VIOLATION of the LACEY ACT and carries a felony with it if convicted. I believe that it was for this reason that the DWR went before a circuit court judge to get a surveillance device order and captain kangaroo may have granted it. However, wanton destruction charges of wildlife is not possession of the same animal, and if the suspect would have had these bobcats in his possession he would have been charged for possession of an illegally harvested animal. And I do not see anyway that could have been proven through PRIMA FICA or otherwise that the DWR could prove its need for a GPS device without proving that a federal transport crime was committed and that requires possession....... My assumption is that the men of the clothe got the cart before the horse on this one and I unlike you, I think that he would not be found guilty under a trial by Jury. The sad fact of the matter is that as has happened in the past, the DWR uses procedural maneuvering to the point that one losses their time to petition for a trial by jury and the verdict is left up to judicial rule. Ahh... EEEE.... You just don't get it. Maybe his def. team can contact you and you can get him set free?
> 
> If I am not mistaken, the right to privacy along with due process and illegal search and seizure are all constitution rights that can not be usurped under state law. One might keep in mind that a person is innocent until proven guilty. The fourth amendment of the US Constitution protects from unreasonable search and seizure by the government without a warrant. Therefore you have to measure the issue with whether there was a "reasonable expectation to privacy". A poacher driving around on public lands has no expectation to privacy. A tracking device is no different that having physical surveillance conducted by police. *The US Supreme Court has concurred with this standpoint and in 1984 ruled that police could place radio "beepers" in a car without a warrant. *
> 
> One might also consider that once all trapping, hunting and fishing have been declared illegal we will not need many FISH COPS as the state will be under round the clock surveillance by satellite and drone aircraft and we will all be wearing GPS ankle bracelets as new Obama apparel.
> 
> I would rather by blissful than stupid......Big Keep working at this and you might reach that goal... as of know you are still stupid.
Click to expand...


----------



## c.rhea

> However, wanton destruction charges of wildlife is not possession of the same animal, and if the suspect would have had these bobcats in his possession he would have been charged for possession of an illegally harvested animal.


This still does not make any sense?

Like I said before, wanton destruction does not specify the animal is or is not in possession.

It is based on legal stuff Like knowingly intentionally or recklessly and if an animal was captured injured or destroyed...it goes on....You might study up on it.


----------



## bigbr

So Tak,

What DWR branch office do you work out of? Is king Gregory still the AG representative to the DWR as your public defender. Do you still get a kick out of destroying peoples lives by fabricating trumped up charges on law abiding trappers to keep them out of your private trapping grounds.

It seems that I have hit a nerve here, is my conclusion a little closer to the truth than your smear tactics call for?. Should I now look forward to a surveillance device planted in my vehicle?

Please let me know who to thank, so that I can give full credit to those officers while I sit through another one of your dog and pony shows for the legislature as we are bussed out to Antelope Island state park. 

Oh but you are right I have no idea of the adjunctive procedures that your agency puts in place.

Big


----------



## TAK

bigbr said:


> So Tak,
> 
> What DWR branch office do you work out of? Is king Gregory still the AG representative to the DWR as your public defender. Do you still get a kick out of destroying peoples lives by fabricating trumped up charges on law abiding trappers to keep them out of your private trapping grounds.
> 
> It seems that I have hit a nerve here, is my conclusion a little closer to the truth than your smear tactics call for?. Should I now look forward to a surveillance device planted in my vehicle?
> 
> Please let me know who to thank, so that I can give full credit to those officers while I sit through another one of your dog and pony shows for the legislature as we are bused out Antelope Island state park.
> 
> Oh but you are right I have no idea of the adjunctive procedures that your agency puts in place.
> 
> Big


No nerve struck... Just I don't think you really have a clue of what you are talking about. I also am NOT a DWR officer, however I have worked in Law-Enforcment nearly 14 years now. I work as a Parole and Probation Agent, prior to that as a Police officer and during that time as a Narcotics officer. So I have logged mucho hours in court and even more hours prepairing cases(WARRANTS)for those that have broke the law.

My adivice to you don't believe all that you read in the paper, hear on the news and wait for the case to be adjudicated in court before you spout off.

And I don't trap, can't even say that I know how to trap, but I do know when someone is doing something to break the law giving the honest people a bad rap!

I know many DWR officers and even know Rhea very well. I dare say that he as many others are just doing a job that they have been hired to do. It is really simple do as the law states and you won't have a problem. If you can't do that and think taking a chance to break the law is better, take that chance but don't cry bad cop when you get caught.

And really this guy is to blame... He is bringing much unwanted attention to the trade of trapping. Just think if he would have been legal, there would have not been a need for a GSP and there would be no news story and everyone would be happy... But it is the money$ same as the dope dealer. Money driven and money is going to make you do things you may or may not do in the first place. So placing blame of the CO's or the Courts is far fetched.


----------



## bigbr

TAK said:


> bigbr said:
> 
> 
> 
> So Tak,
> 
> What DWR branch office do you work out of? Is king Gregory still the AG representative to the DWR as your public defender. Do you still get a kick out of destroying peoples lives by fabricating trumped up charges on law abiding trappers to keep them out of your private trapping grounds.
> 
> It seems that I have hit a nerve here, is my conclusion a little closer to the truth than your smear tactics call for?. Should I now look forward to a surveillance device planted in my vehicle?
> 
> Please let me know who to thank, so that I can give full credit to those officers while I sit through another one of your dog and pony shows for the legislature as we are bused out Antelope Island state park.
> 
> Oh but you are right I have no idea of the adjunctive procedures that your agency puts in place.
> 
> Big
> 
> 
> 
> No nerve struck... Just I don't think you really have a clue of what you are talking about. I also am NOT a DWR officer, however I have worked in Law-Enforcment nearly 14 years now. I work as a Parole and Probation Agent, prior to that as a Police officer and during that time as a Narcotics officer. So I have logged mucho hours in court and even more hours prepairing cases(WARRANTS)for those that have broke the law.
> 
> My adivice to you don't believe all that you read in the paper, hear on the news and wait for the case to be adjudicated in court before you spout off.
> 
> And I don't trap, can't even say that I know how to trap, but I do know when someone is doing something to break the law giving the honest people a bad rap!
> 
> I know many DWR officers and even know Rhea very well. I dare say that he as many others are just doing a job that they have been hired to do. It is really simple do as the law states and you won't have a problem. If you can't do that and think taking a chance to break the law is better, take that chance but don't cry bad cop when you get caught.
> 
> And really this guy is to blame... He is bringing much unwanted attention to the trade of trapping. Just think if he would have been legal, there would have not been a need for a GSP and there would be no news story and everyone would be happy... But it is the money$ same as the dope dealer. Money driven and money is going to make you do things you may or may not do in the first place. So placing blame of the CO's or the Courts is far fetched.
Click to expand...

Tak,

Maybe you should take up trapping. You find one day, as you come to check your traps an enforcement officer there to issue a ticket, because someone removed your trap number from your traps, pulled off your spacer on your offset trap and they are accusing you of not checking your traps every 48 hours. You as a law abiding trapper know that your traps where legally set 48 hour ago and you see only one set of foot prince into your sets and they belong to the officer that is in the processes of arresting you. You then find that you are being cited for trapping violations and animals found in traps that you have no idea even existed and in your cooperation with the officer, you try to prove your innocense you find that your vehicle is ceased and you are carted off to jail. Over one year latter you are still waiting to go to court and you have been led to believe that every thing has been settled, so you have not requested a trial by jury and find out that it is to late to request one. You are then made out through the media to be Claud Dallas and find that the case is not settled. You have spent more money on legal defense than you make in two years and you see no end in sight.

With all due respect sir, DO NOT LECTURE ME ON THE LAW.

There was only one arresting biologist that represented the truth in the above mentioned case, and it made all of the difference in the outcome, and I have the up most respect for him and think that he is a redeeming factor to the agency that I hold in contempt. His first name is Brent F. And he is a good man and fine officer.

You sir are entitled to your opinion, and do express that opinion out of experiences and knowledge that you have gained during your tenior as and officer of the law. I express my opinion out of my experience and exercises in defending my family against charges brought by the law. I experienced first hand officers who represented their department above the law and in the end were reprimanded for there action. I would like to say that this is an isolated incident, but it is not and it would appear that it may have taken place in the above accused man for Ogden. Again as I have stated throughout my posts, that this is my opinion and I stand by that opinion.

Respectfully, Bigbr


----------



## TAK

bigbr said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigbr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tak,
> 
> Maybe you should take up trapping. You find one day, as you come to check your traps an enforcement officer there to issue a ticket, because someone removed your trap number from your traps, pulled off your spacer on your offset trap and they are accusing you of not checking your traps every 48 hours. You as a law abiding trapper know that your traps where legally set 48 hour ago and you see only one set of foot prince into your sets and they belong to the officer that is in the processes of arresting you. You then find that you are being cited for trapping violations and animals found in traps that you have no idea even existed and in your cooperation with the officer, you try to prove your innocense you find that your vehicle is ceased and you are carted off to jail. Over one year latter you are still waiting to go to court and you have been led to believe that every thing has been settled, so you have not requested a trial by jury and find out that it is to late to request one. You are then made out through the media to be Claud Dallas and find that the case is not settled. You have spent more money on legal defense than you make in two years and you see no end in sight.
> 
> With all due respect sir, DO NOT LECTURE ME ON THE LAW.
> 
> There was only one arresting biologist that represented the truth in the above mentioned case, and it made all of the difference in the outcome, and I have the up most respect for him and think that he is a redeeming factor to the agency that I hold in contempt. His first name is Brent F. And he is a good man and fine officer.
> 
> You sir are entitled to your opinion, and do express that opinion out of experiences and knowledge that you have gained during your tenior as and officer of the law. I express my opinion out of my experience and exercises in defending my family against charges brought by the law. I experienced first hand officers who represented their department above the law and in the end were reprimanded for there action. I would like to say that this is an isolated incident, but it is not and it would appear that it may have taken place in the above accused man for Ogden. Again as I have stated throughout my posts, that this is my opinion and I stand by that opinion.
> 
> Respectfully, Bigbr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I do think there is a sale on tin foil hates at the five and dime store.

First I find it unbelievable and movie like to honestly think that a single CO would have done all this you talk about, further more one that is in the Vernal area in the last 14 years or so... I KNOW EVER SINGLE ONE OF THEM! Unless some of them lead a life outside of what I know of them... YOUR UP IN THE NIGHT! 
Either that or you have someone wanting to clearly frame you! But by god do not preach to me about crooked cops, or CO for that matter. No one is perfect but I find it hard/impossible to believe that a CO or Cop for that matter would go to that extreme to run someone out of an area for TRAPPING! Maybe on TV or some novel! There is far to many people out there commiting crimes to go to this level!!!!

FURTHER MORE! Tell us the whole story! Ya say you have all the respect for the "Arresting Biolgest" so there was some sort of crime commited! Lets hear it all... Ya give me enough detail I can fill in the blanks! Maybe pulling the case from the COURT CASE! You yourself can go ahead and get the court docs on in!


----------



## bigbr

TAK Wrote:

"And I don't trap, can't even say that I know how to trap, but I do know when someone is doing something to break the law giving the honest people a bad rap!"

But of course you know the law, and no government enforcement officers ever break the law or are influenced by money or power? And of course there is no reason for law enforcement to establish probable cause before they performan acts of intrusion and of course probable cause can be sustained by a gut feeling of the enforcement officer.

Oh and of course I am just making this stuff up according to your professional observation. And of course it is always the sportsmen who give hunting and trapping a bad rap, even though it is the DWR own press release that sets the tone for the whole case.

And are we to assume now that the DWR has this new tool (GPS) that a person could be driving to work in his SUV having a no knowledge of any under cover sting operation and inadvertently drive past a 24 inch buck killed on the road and yet this is PRIMA FICA evidence that he or she has committed the crime?

Wow! Tak, your drug dealers have more protection under the law than is provided in wildlife agency code. Why don't you take the time with you legal background and explain to us the Adjunctive powers contained in the DWR and how they differ from criminal law?

And of course we are all aware of the fact that once you put on the badge or the robe, you are inalienably bestowed with greater judgment and power and are never to be questioned or controlled.

Do you really think that you are the only person ever to testify in a court of law or go before a joint congressional oversight committee on matters of injustice?

Just knowing that you are their makes me sleep better at night&#8230;&#8230;..Wow I have to install bars on my doors and widows now to protect the public from my tinfoil hat&#8230;&#8230;.Big


----------



## DBCooper

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
-- Thomas Paine

"The only good bureaucrat is one with a pistol at his head. Put it in his hand and it's good-by to the Bill of Rights."
-- H.L. Mencken


I don't think any man should go to jail for killing any animal(s). Pay a fine and move on...


----------



## TAK

bigbr said:


> TAK Wrote:
> 
> "And I don't trap, can't even say that I know how to trap, but I do know when someone is doing something to break the law giving the honest people a bad rap!"
> 
> But of course you know the law, and no government enforcement officers ever break the law or are influenced by money or power? *None that have a very long career! At that time they are the ones that need to be jailed!*And of course there is no reason for law enforcement to establish probable cause before they performan acts of intrusion and of course probable cause can be sustained by a gut feeling of the enforcement officer. *Remember this REASONABLE SUSPICION! *
> 
> Oh and of course I am just making this stuff up according to your professional observation. And of course it is always the sportsmen who give hunting and trapping a bad rap, even though it is the DWR own press release that sets the tone for the whole case. *No, it is not the Sportsmen that give hunting and trapping a bad rap, it is the folks like this feller that does it! Or are you telling me this guy is your spokesman for ethics on trapping? You are missing the entire point of this whole thread! This guy got caught giving every trapper, Sportman and hunter a bad name! DON'T HATE THE GAME HATE THE PLAYER!!!! The SOB got caught raping and pilliging the trappers bread and butter and you as a trapper are here defending him because you think that the DWR screwed him and tracked him? WAKE UP! :idea: *
> 
> And are we to assume now that the DWR has this new tool (GPS) that a person could be driving to work in his SUV having a no knowledge of any under cover sting operation and inadvertently drive past a 24 inch buck killed on the road and yet this is PRIMA FICA evidence that he or she has committed the crime?*I am not worried one little bit, I have not one thing to hide, OK I MIGHT BE SPEEDING! But if I see a big buck like that, I make a call to the DWR, or I pass by... simple as that....*
> 
> Wow! Tak, your drug dealers have more protection under the law than is provided in wildlife agency code. Why don't you take the time with you legal background and explain to us the Adjunctive powers contained in the DWR and how they differ from criminal law? *Well I would but I and any other officer in this state has the same arrest/investigation powers, just assigned to different parts of the CODE BOOK so to say. Like the UHP they do more Traffic enforcement, DWR Wildlife, etc..... They are all CRIMINAL LAW :wink: *
> 
> And of course we are all aware of the fact that once you put on the badge or the robe, you are inalienably bestowed with greater judgment and power and are never to be questioned or controlled. *That is the thing about it, I and all officers in this state are 24/7, if something needs to be done it gets done. I would hope that I don't take a chip with me when knowing my actions can and will play a roll in everyones involved lives. I can tell ya I have never lost sleep over arresting someone!!! It is a practice of mine to only arrest the guilty ones! *
> 
> Do you really think that you are the only person ever to testify in a court of law *Well no!*or go before a joint congressional oversight committee on matters of injustice? *Pardon my ignorance but what is this? Did'nt Nixon or someone bigger than a cop have to do something like this? Sorry that is a wii bit over my head????*
> 
> Just knowing that you are their makes me sleep better at night&#8230;&#8230;..Wow I have to install bars on my doors and widows now to protect the public from my tinfoil hat&#8230;&#8230;.Big
> *WHAT? :?: *


----------



## bigbr

Tak,

As I have already made clear, I do not condone or support poaching and I do not think we need any more poster boys for anti hunting/trapping cannon fodder. I think that we all share this common ground. I do feel that the sport of trapping is misunderstood by the public and by the majority of wildlife enforcement officers that are employed to patrol, protect and enforce and as a result they take a hard line on enforcement to make up for their lack of understanding.

Respectfully, Big


----------



## TAK

*Re: Above the law,*



bigbr said:


> This is an example of one reason I stopped trapping in Utah. There are handful of DWR officers that trap in Utah, I guess to kill time and supplement their income on free government gas. There are many DWR officers that would love to outlaw trapping all together and a few officers that will ticket you on sight if they see you or find you trapping. There are three officers in the DWR that give it a bad rap and have no business wearing a badge, one from the Vernal area and has since been fired and hopefully the other from Fillmore will retire or demise which ever comes first by natural attrition. *I can not tell you the number of times my legal cats and equipment have been stolen by the so called men of the clothe. I caught the SOB from the Vernal office red handed with my traps in hand one day and he lied threw his teeth about it even as I reported it to his superiors. Latter I was exonerated and an apology was offered by this same superior officer as further events lead to the man in question being fired. After totaling two DWR vehicles in a high speed chase without lights at night and then arresting the sheriffs wife at night for speeding, this bad boy was sent over to SLC for attitude adjustment training and soon after was told to quit or be fired. I think that the officer in question got the latter by the DWR.*
> Constitutional rights apply to everyone and including criminals and a lot of murders and drug dealers have been let free with a lot less infraction performed in the name of the law.
> 
> Having trapped for many a year and seen the fabrications of evidence used against law abiding sportsmen/trappers in this state, I would be the first one to discount any story that originated from the mouths of the DWR on trapping violation and I would side with this trapper with what has been written and presented so far. Might even send him a few bucks for his legal defense as I know that the DWR will hold this over until they can get Judge Roy Bean out of Pleasant Grove to try the case. Judge Bean, you see is the DWR's special appointed hangman judge that would hang you for a nickel if he thought he would get a free guided fishing trip out of the deal from our men of the clothe. DWR has a nack of holding over certain cases and trying them with old Roy, kind of like throwing the Christians to the lions in the Roman Empire days.
> 
> Well I hope that this trapper sues and gets awarded ten million dollars for this injustice as it will only be a minor penance for the atrocities that have been fabricated against honest trappers in the past.
> 
> Big


This is CLASSIC! Unbelivable you would put this to writing!

_This deserves a HOLY FARFUCNOVIN! PRO That is much more than a simple WOW!_


----------



## TAK

bigbr said:


> Tak,
> 
> As I have already made clear, I do not condone or support poaching and I do not think we need any more poster boys for anti hunting/trapping cannon fodder. I think that we all share this common ground. I do feel that the sport of trapping is misunderstood by the public and by the majority of wildlife enforcement officers that are employed to patrol, protect and enforce and as a result they take a hard line on enforcement to make up for their lack of understanding.
> 
> Respectfully, Big


......... :arrow:


----------



## proutdoors

HOLY FARFUCNOVIN!


----------



## Huge29

proutdoors said:


> HOLY FARFUCNOVIN!


I think the "U" should be one of these "ü" to more correct :mrgreen:


----------



## TAK

Huge29 said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> HOLY FARFUCNOVIN!
> 
> 
> 
> I think the "U" should be one of these "ü" to more correct :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

At least I took out the "K"..... after the "C"and before the "N"... to BE more correct..... :lol:


----------



## TAK

proutdoors said:


> HOLY FARFUCNOVIN!


Amen!


----------



## proutdoors

:mrgreen: 8)


----------



## bigbr

I stand by my post and know that they are true......Big


----------



## TAK

bigbr said:


> I stand by my post and know that they are true......Big


Hmmmmmm...... And to think I worked in the Basin 12-13 years and know every, county, local, DWR, FBI, and BIA officer, agent, deputy!

I think that we need one of these smily things that has a nose that growes.... Or one that is shoveling the dukky!


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

Big I get what you are saying and I happen to agree. I have hunted and still occasionally hunt with a couple of guys that work in law enforcement. They do not work for DWR but are officers still the same. These guys have no hesitation when it comes to breaking the law especially when it comes to trespassing. I am sure not all officers but there are some who think they are above the law because they wear a badge. There are a couple pieces of property that I know of the DWR owns and employees of the division think these properties are there personal hunting areas and will harass and threaten arrest if they find you on the property. I also have a high level of disdain for the division. Most of their actions especially in the area of enforcement are suspect in my opinion. Their performance in game mangement irks the hell out of me. I have longed believed we should swap the staffs of the division and mosquito abatement then we would have no mosquitos and plenty of game. I also feel if this guys rights were violated he ought to walk and on its face based on the available information I have enforcement overstepped their bounds in this case in my opinion. It is too easy for these so called law enforcers to put the screws to people and when they violate a persons rights should be subject to arrest and jail themselves. TAK I certainly hope you are not one of them officials with a God complex and if your not then you should be able to understand the frustration that people feel with the way some enforcement personnel treat citizens.


----------



## bigbr

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> Big I get what you are saying and I happen to agree. I have hunted and still occasionally hunt with a couple of guys that work in law enforcement. They do not work for DWR but are officers still the same. These guys have no hesitation when it comes to breaking the law especially when it comes to trespassing. I am sure not all officers but there are some who think they are above the law because they wear a badge. There are a couple pieces of property that I know of the DWR owns and employees of the division think these properties are there personal hunting areas and will harass and threaten arrest if they find you on the property. I also have a high level of disdain for the division. Most of their actions especially in the area of enforcement are suspect in my opinion. Their performance in game mangement irks the hell out of me. I have longed believed we should swap the staffs of the division and mosquito abatement then we would have no mosquitos and plenty of game. I also feel if this guys rights were violated he ought to walk and on its face based on the available information I have enforcement overstepped their bounds in this case in my opinion. It is too easy for these so called law enforcers to put the screws to people and when they violate a persons rights should be subject to arrest and jail themselves. TAK I certainly hope you are not one of them officials with a God complex and if your not then you should be able to understand the frustration that people feel with the way some enforcement personnel treat citizens.


luv2fsh&hnt,

I appreciate your comments.....Big


----------



## bigbr

TAK said:


> bigbr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I stand by my post and know that they are true......Big
> 
> 
> 
> *Hmmmmmm...... And to think I worked in the Basin 12-13 years and know every, county, local, DWR, FBI, and BIA officer, agent, deputy! *
> I think that we need one of these smily things that has a nose that growes.... Or one that is shoveling the dukky!
Click to expand...

Tak,

Being that you are so involved with all of those people maybe you could bring us up to speed on the federal corruption investigation that took place in the Basin investigating local law enforcement a few years ago?


----------



## Finnegan

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> I have longed believed we should swap the staffs of the division and mosquito abatement then we would have no mosquitos and plenty of game.


 -_O- :rotfl:


----------



## TAK

bigbr said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigbr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I stand by my post and know that they are true......Big
> 
> 
> 
> *Hmmmmmm...... And to think I worked in the Basin 12-13 years and know every, county, local, DWR, FBI, and BIA officer, agent, deputy! *
> I think that we need one of these smily things that has a nose that growes.... Or one that is shoveling the dukky!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tak,
> 
> Being that you are so involved with all of those people maybe you could bring us up to speed on the federal corruption investigation that took place in the Basin investigating local law enforcement a few years ago?
Click to expand...

Give me more detail? Who, what, when where and how? Are you talking about the Tazer incident?(PS that was not Fed) Or you talking about some of the Jail staff fratinizing with inmates?(this is not Fed either)
I will have to have more info of what you talking about and I will give you the scudle butt of what I know.....
Unless your talking about the BIA... they are under the department of somthing or other and they are Fed. But there to I have not heard much about them in the last few years.

Yet, I have no idea how this links up to the DWR and them wronging you so bad when all you have to do is give me your name, maybe a case number an I sure I can see just how truthful you are.

But even so if there was something that went on with fed and them investigating the local five O, then to me the checks and balance is working as it was intended.....


----------



## bigbr

TAK wrote:

*"further more one that is in the Vernal area in the last 14 years or so... I KNOW EVER SINGLE ONE OF THEM! Unless some of them lead a life outside of what I know of them... YOUR UP IN THE NIGHT!"

"Hmmmmmm...... And to think I worked in the Basin 12-13 years and know every, county, local, DWR, FBI, and BIA officer, agent, deputy!"*
Come on now TAK, having lived and worked in Vernal for the past 14 years and having all but slept with its law enforcement, implying that you can vouch for their characters! Do I need to go back and pull out all of my old Vernal Express articles to bring to light the big investigation?Although you do bring up some fine examples of stellar law enforcement tactics with the few examples you have mentioned. Does Pender ring a bell?

And you had done such a fine job in proving how pure all law enforcement officials are up to this point&#8230;&#8230;.Should we pull out the little white nome with the long nose or do we only represent the truth when the little red light is on?

Beings that you are so intimate with everyone in the basin, maybe you should ask former state senator Evens about what her opinion of the DWR is as at relates to trapping citations issued by the men of the clothe&#8230;&#8230; You will get your truth and get thrown off her porch doing it.

Oh and by the way how was your hunt with the DWR Employee who poached the elk last year, I guess that shouldn't have gotten out&#8230;&#8230;..Just thought you should know&#8230;..Big


----------



## TAK

bigbr said:


> TAK wrote:
> 
> *"further more one that is in the Vernal area in the last 14 years or so... I KNOW EVER SINGLE ONE OF THEM! Unless some of them lead a life outside of what I know of them... YOUR UP IN THE NIGHT!"
> 
> "Hmmmmmm...... And to think I worked in the Basin 12-13 years and know every, county, local, DWR, FBI, and BIA officer, agent, deputy!"*
> Come on now TAK, having lived and worked in Vernal for the past 14 years and having all but slept with its law enforcement, implying that you can vouch for their characters! Do I need to go back and pull out all of my old Vernal Express articles to bring to light the big investigation?Although you do bring up some fine examples of stellar law enforcement tactics with the few examples you have mentioned. Does Pender ring a bell?
> 
> And you had done such a fine job in proving how pure all law enforcement officials are up to this point&#8230;&#8230;.Should we pull out the little white nome with the long nose or do we only represent the truth when the little red light is on?
> 
> Beings that you are so intimate with everyone in the basin, maybe you should ask former state senator Evens about what her opinion of the DWR is as at relates to trapping citations issued by the men of the clothe&#8230;&#8230; You will get your truth and get thrown off her porch doing it.
> 
> Oh and by the way how was your hunt with the DWR officer who poached the elk last year, I guess that shouldn't have gotten out&#8230;&#8230;..Just thought you should know&#8230;..Big


So what was wrong with the Pinder case? Again you lost me there? One of the lead investigators is now the Sherrif of Duchesne? What was wrong with that one? I for sure never heard a thing that was wrong with anything that went along that case? I did hear romor that there was over 100 warrants written and to my understanding all that was arrested was convicted or pled on all counts....

And my Elk hunt with DWR officer that poached and Elk? Again that one is news to me? Now you really are making chit up! But for the sak of fun lets hear about it!


----------



## TAK

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> Big I get what you are saying and I happen to agree. I have hunted and still occasionally hunt with a couple of guys that work in law enforcement. They do not work for DWR but are officers still the same. These guys have no hesitation when it comes to breaking the law especially when it comes to trespassing. I am sure not all officers but there are some who think they are above the law because they wear a badge. There are a couple pieces of property that I know of the DWR owns and employees of the division think these properties are there personal hunting areas and will harass and threaten arrest if they find you on the property. I also have a high level of disdain for the division. Most of their actions especially in the area of enforcement are suspect in my opinion. Their performance in game mangement irks the hell out of me. I have longed believed we should swap the staffs of the division and mosquito abatement then we would have no mosquitos and plenty of game. I also feel if this guys rights were violated he ought to walk and on its face based on the available information I have enforcement overstepped their bounds in this case in my opinion. It is too easy for these so called law enforcers to put the screws to people and when they violate a persons rights should be subject to arrest and jail themselves. TAK I certainly hope you are not one of them officials with a God complex and if your not then you should be able to understand the frustration that people feel with the way some enforcement personnel treat citizens.


Not sure if I have that god complex or not? Ask BWHNTER and see. He hates cops, but we still break bread...
As far as your buddys that are cops and do what you say they are doing.... I guess they don't value their jobs as I do???? Stupid if you ask me!
But with that said I can tell you I have this problem with my right foot! I must have been born with a extra heavy big toe!!!! But as one of my unsaid rules never write anotehr cop, and never write a Doctor! ( ya never know when your going to need him or her to pull a bullet of something out of ya!) 
Don't get me wrong, I don't like every cop as I don't like every person! It's kinda like this. I supervise people that have been convicted of felony. The ones that hate me are the ones I have to always deal with because they just can't/won't learn, the others either play the game very well or actully pulled "thi Head out of the ARSE!"

Not sure how this went to a cops eithics course or not, but I think the brbear or whatever is making 98% of this chit up and has little to no facts of anything but maybe he heard in some coffee shop!

An I have said before if we want all the gangs, racoons, spiders, and misquetos done away with let the DWR have control over them......
Sorry Rhea.... :shock:


----------



## TAK

bigbr said:


> Oh and by the way how was your hunt with the DWR officer who poached the elk last year, I guess that shouldn't have gotten out&#8230;&#8230;..Just thought you should know&#8230;..Big


I never thought that anyone would have found out about this! Not only Poaching it was in a stolen SUV, there was 6 of us there so it can be "Gang" enhanced, PRO was the guide, I was on some tweek (cuz I'm so skinny) with two 16 year old girls, that we was feeding alcohol to, and we had a lap top with us down loading midget porn all the time that we was poaching an Elk! More so it dwarfs the spider bull! This was the bull the SFW has been raising for the last 12 years in an undisclosed place in the "PaperBackBookCliffs" and after Poaching said animal we shot up some rock writings on the road out. Not just your run of the mill writing it was the "Wherethefukourwe clan".... and would you know it... MOSSBACK turned us in! But I am sure you knew all about this!

All kidding aside... Is your name Jay.... Did you live on North Myton Bench? Are you still bottling your farts because you believe that it is the cure to SARS? Elvis is Dead let it go!

Please tell me you have not reproduced... PLEASE!


----------



## proutdoors

TAK said:


> I never thought that anyone would have found out about this! Not only Poaching it was in a stolen SUV, there was 6 of us there so it can be "Gang" enhanced, PRO was the guide, I was on some tweek (cuz I'm so skinny) with two 16 year old girls, that we was feeding alcohol to, and we had a lap top with us down loading midget porn all the time that we was poaching an Elk! More so it dwarfs the spider bull! This was the bull the SFW has been raising for the last 12 years in an undisclosed place in the "PaperBackBookCliffs" and after Poaching said animal we shot up some rock writings on the road out. Not just your run of the mill writing it was the "Wherethefukourwe clan".... and would you know it... MOSSBACK turned us in! But I am sure you knew all about this!


HOLY FARFUCNOVIN! :shock: :mrgreen:


----------



## TAK

proutdoors said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never thought that anyone would have found out about this! Not only Poaching it was in a stolen SUV, there was 6 of us there so it can be "Gang" enhanced, PRO was the guide, I was on some tweek (cuz I'm so skinny) with two 16 year old girls, that we was feeding alcohol to, and we had a lap top with us down loading midget porn all the time that we was poaching an Elk! More so it dwarfs the spider bull! This was the bull the SFW has been raising for the last 12 years in an undisclosed place in the "PaperBackBookCliffs" and after Poaching said animal we shot up some rock writings on the road out. Not just your run of the mill writing it was the "Wherethefukourwe clan".... and would you know it... MOSSBACK turned us in! But I am sure you knew all about this!
> 
> 
> 
> HOLY FARFUCNOVIN! :shock: :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

We tiped you in Hookers!


----------



## c.rhea

> An I have said before if we want all the gangs, racoons, spiders, and misquetos done away with let the DWR have control over them......
> Sorry Rhea....


No worries TAK.. I don't manage just enforce regs/laws. Funny thing is, the BIOS that manage never have to answer the question from the public. The officers are those that are making the contacts with the public. We have to listen to all the input on how wrong everything is and it was not even our decision to make the "plans" or "changes".

Now back to the BS.....Brother Bear.


----------



## TAK

c.rhea said:


> An I have said before if we want all the gangs, racoons, spiders, and misquetos done away with let the DWR have control over them......
> Sorry Rhea....
> 
> 
> 
> No worries TAK.. I don't manage just enforce regs/laws. Funny thing is, the BIOS that manage never have to answer the question from the public. The officers are those that are making the contacts with the public. We have to listen to all the input on how wrong everything is and it was not even our decision to make the "plans" or "changes".
> 
> Now back to the BS.....Brother Bear.
Click to expand...

Amen!

:mrgreen:


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

TAK said:
 

> luv2fsh&hnt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Big I get what you are saying and I happen to agree. I have hunted and still occasionally hunt with a couple of guys that work in law enforcement. They do not work for DWR but are officers still the same. These guys have no hesitation when it comes to breaking the law especially when it comes to trespassing. I am sure not all officers but there are some who think they are above the law because they wear a badge. There are a couple pieces of property that I know of the DWR owns and employees of the division think these properties are there personal hunting areas and will harass and threaten arrest if they find you on the property. I also have a high level of disdain for the division. Most of their actions especially in the area of enforcement are suspect in my opinion. Their performance in game mangement irks the hell out of me. I have longed believed we should swap the staffs of the division and mosquito abatement then we would have no mosquitos and plenty of game. I also feel if this guys rights were violated he ought to walk and on its face based on the available information I have enforcement overstepped their bounds in this case in my opinion. It is too easy for these so called law enforcers to put the screws to people and when they violate a persons rights should be subject to arrest and jail themselves. TAK I certainly hope you are not one of them officials with a God complex and if your not then you should be able to understand the frustration that people feel with the way some enforcement personnel treat citizens.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if I have that god complex or not? Ask BWHNTER and see. He hates cops, but we still break bread...
> As far as your buddys that are cops and do what you say they are doing.... I guess they don't value their jobs as I do???? Stupid if you ask me!
> But with that said I can tell you I have this problem with my right foot! I must have been born with a extra heavy big toe!!!! *But as one of my unsaid rules never write anotehr cop*, and never write a Doctor! ( ya never know when your going to need him or her to pull a bullet of something out of ya!)
> Don't get me wrong, I don't like every cop as I don't like every person! It's kinda like this. I supervise people that have been convicted of felony. The ones that hate me are the ones I have to always deal with because they just can't/won't learn, the others either play the game very well or actully pulled "thi Head out of the ARSE!"
> 
> Not sure how this went to a cops eithics course or not, but I think the brbear or whatever is making 98% of this chit up and has little to no facts of anything but maybe he heard in some coffee shop!
> 
> An I have said before if we want all the gangs, racoons, spiders, and misquetos done away with let the DWR have control over them......
> Sorry Rhea.... :shock:
Click to expand...

Exactly what I mean right there if the police don't police themselves who does? I am a vet and I understand the whole camraderie thing especially considering you never know when the guy sitting next to you will be counting on you to save his butt or vice versa. I also have a healthy dislike of law enforcement in general but I have hunted with a few and occasionally still hunt with one.I also had a neighbor that is a seargent with the Weber County Sherriffs' office and she would come over and drink beer with me and the wife. Seeing as you mentioned it though the puke that tasered that kid should have been fired and charged with assault. Pukes like that is what gives me my attitude toward enforcement personnel. He is one of those that most likely got his arse kicked every other day in high school now he has a badge and a gun and thinks he is important. I got no love for cops that act like that. I don't think Big would speak so passionately about something he is making up.Their is clearly a deep sense of indignation in his posts about the trapping incident. I never have been on probation or parole so I don't know much about folks that do what you do. I have had to meet with folks at ap&p for pre-sentence reports on a couple occassions and the one seemed like a pretty decent feller the other one was one of those people that if I met in a bar I would have kicked his arse in about 30 seconds.


----------



## TAK

I think that Police do Police themselves, moreso that you would even know. All I am saying is I won't write another cop for speeding? DUI, Drugs...etc... Ohh hell ya! 

Also I don't agree with you on the Tazer incedent in Vernal. I to would have tazed him. And yes I know both parties in it!

And tell me Y you had a PSI done and had to meet with AP&P..... That is not good if your on paper. But it would lead me to believe Y you hate Law Enforcement so much....!

I don't care if people hate cops or not, as I said before, I don't like every cop as I don't like every person. 

As far as BigBr. I think he is lieing through HIS teeth, maybe it did happen, but there is two sides to a story, and for him to come up with this **** eye'd story about my Elk hunt with the DWR officer that poached and elk story is only more of his made up fiction world! For the record, PRO did not guide us, that part was made up! :lol: 

I think what BigBr suffers from is, envolintary, dislosional, scitsofrania, narsalistic disorder. * This should be proof I am a cop, look at that spelling! But if you need to look it up go to the greatest source of information about a cop! View..... Me, Myself and Irene! Is that not one of the best shows ever made! LOVE IT! Two thumbs way up! Hank should right a handbook on how to be a cop!


----------



## bwhntr

TAK said:


> Not sure if I have that god complex or not? Ask BWHNTER and see. He hates cops, but we still break bread...


I will vouch for TAK...but only this one time. If you ask me tomorrow I will be the first to throw him under the bus! I have found that cops are a little more careful about their actions than most, at least TAK is. They have more to lose. Their job is on the line and they are held to a higher standard. Don't ask me what I think about the "blue curtain" though!

I consider TAK a pretty good friend and a stand up guy. Bigbr is full of sh*t! No way TAK was poaching elk. It was deer you freaking idiot!

Now, C Rhea...I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him! :mrgreen:


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

We will just have to agree to disagree on the taser incident.I would agree with you had the guy taken an agressive posture or tone toward the officer but he didn't. The officer is either a control freak or a bonafide wimp either way he is not fit to be a cop and it is exactly cops like him why I have a general dislike for law enforcement. As far as my visits with ap&p I will just say that 20+ years ago I was a little bit quick on the temper and a little short on wisdom and a whole lot quicker to start throwing my fists with a little firewater thrown into the mix and I was at that time what some considered a bad-ass. Had it not been for the actions of four upstanding officers that proceeded to kick the crap out of me in an elevator while handcuffed I would have a felony conviction for sending three officers and a jailer to visit the er doctor. Police are real tuff guys as long as they have a guy outnumbered and bound. That sir is where my dislike comes from but I am also open minded enough now to recognise there are bad folks in all groups and not all law enforcement are bad people.


----------



## .45

> Had it not been for the actions of four upstanding officers that proceeded to kick the crap out of me in an elevator while handcuffed I would have a felony conviction for sending three officers and a jailer to visit their doctor


You shouldn't have called them officer's all of them nasty names !!! :twisted:


----------



## TAK

bwhntr said:


> *I consider TAK a pretty good friend and a stand up guy*. Bigbr is full of sh*t! No way TAK was poaching elk. It was deer you freaking idiot!


Now, I might get all teary eyed.... That there is some of the good old fasion man love! Zim chim in with a group hug!


----------



## TAK

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> We will just have to agree to disagree on the taser incident.I would agree with you had the guy taken an agressive posture or tone toward the officer but he didn't. The officer is either a control freak or a bonafide wimp either way he is not fit to be a cop and it is exactly cops like him why I have a general dislike for law enforcement.
> *I can live with that! I disagree! My reason why as "Today People" are much different than the ones that you or I grew up around or are. This day and age people don't just throw fists or argue in the streets. They wait to go into a mail, or school wit ha plan of distructiuon or they axe you up into little pieces. At least in the old west you squared off in the street and quickest guy won. This day we have know you just never know who or what you are dealing with. Like I said before I know both parties to the tazer thing, and believe me when I say 10 minutes with this kid/guy you would do more than want to taz him.... What was that guy that sold computers and was a nut on TV? No chit he reminded me of him! *
> 
> As far as my visits with ap&p I will just say that 20+ years ago I was a little bit quick on the temper and a little short on wisdom and a whole lot quicker to start throwing my fists with a little firewater thrown into the mix and I was at that time what some considered a bad-ass. Had it not been for the actions of four upstanding officers that proceeded to kick the crap out of me in an elevator while handcuffed I would have a felony conviction for sending three officers and a jailer to visit the er doctor.
> *Glad to see you grew up and and relized that the beatings are not worth it! From a Cop or a crowd, just not worth it!*
> 
> Police are real tuff guys as long as they have a guy outnumbered and bound. That sir is where my dislike comes from but I am also open minded enough now to recognise there are bad folks in all groups and not all law enforcement are bad people.
> 
> *Amen... I figured I could not beat them so I joined them!!! :wink: *


----------



## TAK

bwhntr said:


> Bigbr is full of sh*t!


Ya think? He sure is silenced though......


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

TAK said:


> luv2fsh&hnt said:
> 
> 
> 
> We will just have to agree to disagree on the taser incident.I would agree with you had the guy taken an agressive posture or tone toward the officer but he didn't. The officer is either a control freak or a bonafide wimp either way he is not fit to be a cop and it is exactly cops like him why I have a general dislike for law enforcement.
> *I can live with that! I disagree! My reason why as "Today People" are much different than the ones that you or I grew up around or are. This day and age people don't just throw fists or argue in the streets. They wait to go into a mail, or school wit ha plan of distructiuon or they axe you up into little pieces. At least in the old west you squared off in the street and quickest guy won. This day we have know you just never know who or what you are dealing with. Like I said before I know both parties to the tazer thing, and believe me when I say 10 minutes with this kid/guy you would do more than want to taz him.... What was that guy that sold computers and was a nut on TV? No chit he reminded me of him! *
> 
> Dale Schanze is the computer guy he also ran for governor this last election cycle.I don't see how anyone could consider Dale or anyone like him a threat.That makes me laugh. I will concede that folks are different than in my younger days. With the gangs and all I understand that part of it but part of being a cop is being able to read people and a cop should be able tell the difference between a hardened criminal and an everyday citizen that poses no threat and treat each accordingly.
> 
> As far as my visits with ap&p I will just say that 20+ years ago I was a little bit quick on the temper and a little short on wisdom and a whole lot quicker to start throwing my fists with a little firewater thrown into the mix and I was at that time what some considered a bad-ass. Had it not been for the actions of four upstanding officers that proceeded to kick the crap out of me in an elevator while handcuffed I would have a felony conviction for sending three officers and a jailer to visit the er doctor.
> *Glad to see you grew up and and relized that the beatings are not worth it! From a Cop or a crowd, just not worth it!*
> 
> I gave as good as I got even handcuffed and the ones that beat me were not the ones I beat just buddies of the ones I beat.Kind of chicken chit as far as I am concerned but it is all good.
> 
> Police are real tuff guys as long as they have a guy outnumbered and bound. That sir is where my dislike comes from but I am also open minded enough now to recognise there are bad folks in all groups and not all law enforcement are bad people.
> 
> *Amen... I figured I could not beat them so I joined them!!! :wink: *
Click to expand...

I am glad you caught the sarcasm. My days of fighting are over I am too old now but somebody has a signature about messing with old men and getting shot that about sums up how I feel.


----------



## Huntoholic

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> I am glad you caught the sarcasm. My days of fighting are over I am too old now but somebody has a signature about messing with old men and getting shot that about sums up how I feel.


You rang! 

Now I'm going to have to go and read 9 pages just to what the fight was about.


----------



## TAK

Huntoholic said:


> luv2fsh&hnt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad you caught the sarcasm. My days of fighting are over I am too old now but somebody has a signature about messing with old men and getting shot that about sums up how I feel.
> 
> 
> 
> You rang!
> 
> Now I'm going to have to go and read 9 pages just to what the fight was about.
Click to expand...

Here I'll save ya time.
Fish Cops caught poacher, Said no warrant for device, fishcop say yes to getting warrant, BigBr makes up lies left and right, people call him on it, he goes in hiding... That almost sums up the 9 pages.... 8) 
Ohh and in a few months the poacher is going to court and then found guilty, get fine some jail time and will be peeking out his blinds for the rest of his life. May or may not commit crimes again.......


----------



## Huntoholic

TAK said:


> Here I'll save ya time.
> Fish Cops caught poacher, Said no warrant for device, fishcop say yes to getting warrant, BigBr makes up lies left and right, people call him on it, he goes in hiding... That almost sums up the 9 pages.... 8)
> Ohh and in a few months the poacher is going to court and then found guilty, get fine some jail time and will be peeking out his blinds for the rest of his life. May or may not commit crimes again.......


Thanks

Now I'll throw my two cents in. To many times we let people off the hook, because of a mistake or somebody else making a bad choice. Over time somebody has concluded that if these actions take place that some how it is justice to just ignore the evidence. Sorry but I believe this is false and wrong. If the evidence is valid it should not be thrown out. What should happen is those that were involved in the mistake or bad action should face their justice. After their trial, the punishment should fit their crime. Justice is served in both cases and the constituation is followed as intended.

This guy should have his day in court. All evidence should be presented. If he is found guilty he should get his punishment.

If the officers did something illegal then they should be brought up on charges. They should have their day in court. If they are found guilty they should get their punishment.

I don't believe our system of justice was ever meant to turn lose rapists, poachers and sure for somebody making a bad choice.


----------



## TAK

Huntoholic said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here I'll save ya time.
> Fish Cops caught poacher, Said no warrant for device, fishcop say yes to getting warrant, BigBr makes up lies left and right, people call him on it, he goes in hiding... That almost sums up the 9 pages.... 8)
> Ohh and in a few months the poacher is going to court and then found guilty, get fine some jail time and will be peeking out his blinds for the rest of his life. May or may not commit crimes again.......
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Now I'll throw my two cents in. To many times we let people off the hook, because of a mistake or somebody else making a bad choice. Over time somebody has concluded that if these actions take place that some how it is justice to just ignore the evidence. Sorry but I believe this is false and wrong. If the evidence is valid it should not be thrown out. What should happen is those that were involved in the mistake or bad action should face their justice. After their trial, the punishment should fit their crime. Justice is served in both cases and the constituation is followed as intended.
> 
> This guy should have his day in court. All evidence should be presented. If he is found guilty he should get his punishment.
> 
> If the officers did something illegal then they should be brought up on charges. They should have their day in court. If they are found guilty they should get their punishment.
> 
> I don't believe our system of justice was ever meant to turn lose rapists, poachers and sure for somebody making a bad choice.
Click to expand...

Well you went and read all 9 pages! I would like to point out, as you are leading to it, but the highest court has ruled on such a thing as this, and also an actul fish cop gave us the opinion that a warrant was issued before such an action was taken. It is only a few and the defendants attorny that are asking for the evidence to be thrown out. It is a cat and mouse game that most clutters up the court systems. Def. Att. will contest every issue possible(shotgun effect) until the State or County just gets tired of it and goes full force or offers up a sweet hand slap(My opinion). If I had a penny for every def. att. that told me "Well we didn't think you would make it to court".

So if the guy gets a slap on the wrist it is not (in most cases) a bad case it is just someone working the system! :wink:


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

The police work the system and manipulate evidence more than any other party in the judicial system. Police just get pissed off because the defense attorneys bring their bs to light. Police and prosecuting attorneys use more technicalities to steal peoples liberty and money than defense attorneys could ever dream of. The biggest difference in the public psyche is it is not big news when a prosecutor uses a technicality or when an officer commits perjury to gain a conviction. When a defense attorney uses technical points of the law to gain an aquittal or dismissal the media is all over it and broadcasts it. TAK you need to quit acting like the police are innocent little boy scouts when you know good and well the exact opposite is the reality. Not to say there are not good cops. It is just that the good ones are in the minority IMO.


----------



## proutdoors

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> The police work the system and manipulate evidence more than any other party in the judicial system. Police just get **** off because the defense attorneys bring their bs to light. Police and prosecuting attorneys use more technicalities to steal peoples liberty and money than defense attorneys could ever dream of. The biggest difference in the public psyche is it is not big news when a prosecutor uses a technicality or when an officer commits perjury to gain a conviction. When a defense attorney uses technical points of the law to gain an aquittal or dismissal the media is all over it and broadcasts it. TAK you need to quit acting like the police are innocent little boy scouts when you know good and well the exact opposite is the reality. Not to say there are not good cops. It is just that the good ones are in the minority IMO.


I disagree with EVERY sentence in this post! :evil: :roll:


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

proutdoors said:


> luv2fsh&hnt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The police work the system and manipulate evidence more than any other party in the judicial system. Police just get **** off because the defense attorneys bring their bs to light. Police and prosecuting attorneys use more technicalities to steal peoples liberty and money than defense attorneys could ever dream of. The biggest difference in the public psyche is it is not big news when a prosecutor uses a technicality or when an officer commits perjury to gain a conviction. When a defense attorney uses technical points of the law to gain an aquittal or dismissal the media is all over it and broadcasts it. TAK you need to quit acting like the police are innocent little boy scouts when you know good and well the exact opposite is the reality. Not to say there are not good cops. It is just that the good ones are in the minority IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with EVERY sentence in this post! :evil: :roll:
Click to expand...

You have the right to disagree but it is based on my experience in dealing with enforcement officers. :!:


----------



## Huge29

proutdoors said:


> luv2fsh&hnt said:
> 
> 
> 
> The police work the system and manipulate evidence more than any other party in the judicial system. Police just get **** off because the defense attorneys bring their bs to light. Police and prosecuting attorneys use more technicalities to steal peoples liberty and money than defense attorneys could ever dream of. The biggest difference in the public psyche is it is not big news when a prosecutor uses a technicality or when an officer commits perjury to gain a conviction. When a defense attorney uses technical points of the law to gain an aquittal or dismissal the media is all over it and broadcasts it. TAK you need to quit acting like the police are innocent little boy scouts when you know good and well the exact opposite is the reality. Not to say there are not good cops. It is just that the good ones are in the minority IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with EVERY sentence in this post! :evil: :roll:
Click to expand...

I could not say that I agree with anything either, but I think that if Luv were to divulge his experiences to us we would better understand his point of view, otherwise, I guess we will be left to think that you are a little whacky ex con who could not get off (no pun intended).


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

First off I am not an ex-con I have a couple misdemeanor convictions but the police wanted felonies and lied through their teeth in their sworn statements trying to gain the felony convictions. I am no friend of the law enforcement community I do however have a couple friends that work in law enforcement we just don't talk about their work. Go sit in a court room and listen to some of the bull these guys spew not that there isn't plenty of bull coming from the other side as well. I think my main beef with enforcement officials is they are suppose to be the good guys and in my experience are far from being good guys they lie and manipulate as much or more than the so called criminals.


----------



## TAK

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> The police work the system and manipulate evidence more than any other party in the judicial system. Police just get **** off because the defense attorneys bring their bs to light. Police and prosecuting attorneys use more technicalities to steal peoples liberty and money than defense attorneys could ever dream of. The biggest difference in the public psyche is it is not big news when a prosecutor uses a technicality or when an officer commits perjury to gain a conviction. When a defense attorney uses technical points of the law to gain an aquittal or dismissal the media is all over it and broadcasts it. TAK you need to quit acting like the police are innocent little boy scouts when you know good and well the exact opposite is the reality. Not to say there are not good cops. It is just that the good ones are in the minority IMO.


With todays advancements in about everything from Car Cams to TAZER CAMS! How could one think as you do that the evidence is minipulated? What is the purpose? But I would not say everyone is as honest as they should have been taught! 
If you know cops that are doing this they will soon not be cops! There is a LOT of people out there to catch, no need to throw your life away over one you have to make the Chit up on! One thing there is not a shortage of people making dumb choices!


----------



## Huge29

Luv,
I don't question or doubt your experience from the way that you see it, but the pessimist in me makes me question your perception of reality. I know that many people follow George Costanza's line of thinking where they really don't feel that they are lying since they believe it deeply. I know of many experiences seeing people vehemently deny the truth when it is inconvenient for them such as in cases of criminal law. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and their perception of reality and I grant you that same entitlement. As for me and for the guys on here who are officers such USMarine, Tak and many others I respect them very much and know that they put their lives in the line of danger regularly for the benefit all of us. I know that some of them do get on power trips and ....., but for the most part these are good guys who do a good job and have our best interests in mind. Can I just say that let's be respectful to everyone and their line of work? It gets awfully personal very quickly and we all share a brotherhood of outdoorsmen who should respect each other's values and our differences, that is my $0.02.


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

I don't think I was disrespectful to anyone or their line of work. I understand there are good people that are cops and it is a tuff job. I stated an opinion based on personal experience and it will not be changed anytime soon.Although it has mellowed over the last 20 years the disdain I have for law enforcement has been well earned and is reinforced everytime I have anykind of interaction with a less than honorable egomaniacal officer on a power trip or see the bull**** in the news like the taser incident,or the shooting of the firefighter in Farmington or the Officer Hammond fiasco.


----------



## Huge29

I can't argue with you Luv; I am sure that anyone who experienced what you did would have the same perception too. Sounds like a bad deal. I just saw the other guy's experience get belittled, hopefully we can all respect each other's experience; obviously no one can discount what you experienced since none of us was there. I think we can all learn from it. It seems like our attitudes make a big difference where when we expect every cop to be a wienie and we treat them as such, the cop does act like a wienie in return and vice versa when we are respectful. Fortunately, I have not had any such experiences with the law and have actually had some experiences with DWR CO's in a joint venture in busting some trespassers/poachers and really respected the CO's for how they treated everyone involved. Again, that was my experience and I have not lived through your's.


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

Fair enough Huge. I am not looking to argue either. I will even say there are some even many good cops. Like hunters and fisherman probably the majority are at least ok but all get branded because of the inapropriate actions of a few. It is very possible I have just had bad luck with the ones I have dealt with thus causing a jaded view. This would be my hope. Actually my feelings on this subject causes a large amount consternation for me due to the large number of veterans that are police officers and I am fiercely loyal to and protective of vets because I am a vet also.


----------



## Huge29

Luv,
As I saw today in the news, the prosecution against Congressman Stevens is now being investigated, so there certainly are bad apples out there. It will be interesting to see how this case that started this thread goes. At the end of the day, we are all on the same team, if this guy is guilty I think we would all want him to be punished and if not guilty, then he has certainly had some major damage to his name and life in general, may justice be served.


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt

I am with you on that.


----------

