# Pause on Pheasants?



## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

Saw an interesting comment on DWR Facebook post about releasing pheasants. The commenter suggested pausing the pheasant hunt for a few years to give these released birds more of a chance to build a stronger wild population. He also suggested using that time to improve habitat. This really intrigues me. I was out with the crowds this morning trying to get a limit, but I think I'd be willing to forego pheasant hunting for a few years if it meant more wild birds a d improved habitat. Thoughts? And if there's a DWR biologist watching this thread, I'd especially love your perspective.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

These released birds have no idea of how to survive outside of the pen. Most of them would die from predators. 

People just have to realize that Utah is not a pheasant friendly state. It doesn't have the crops that it did back in the 60's and before when you could actually go out and hunt them. If you want to see what a pheasant friendly state looks like you need to go the the Midwest and take a look at their fields where the pheasants live.

I would actually like to see the DOW completely drop the pen raised pheasant program and concentrate on something that will thrive in the state such as chuckars.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

As a novice who has only been out twice, I agree with Critter on viability of pen raised birds developing feral populations. From what I saw today and talking with others the last few years, these birds are raised to be stupid. More than half had no survival instinct.

I'll take the "wild" meat and field time but it does seem like a borderline hunt but I don't have anything to compare it to. It didn't feel as sporting as grouse hunting. And the number of unclaimed winged birds others (with dogs) were finding after dying was disheartening. But maybe that's common everywhere.

It does help novices like me learn some basics. And I still have plenty to learn before I can pass up any hunt. Any time in the field is appreciated but this is the first time I've left feeling a little uneasy about it all.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> These released birds have no idea of how to survive outside of the pen. Most of them would die from predators.


*All* pheasants in america came from pen raised released birds at one point. It only takes a few to get an establised population.

-DallanC


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

It pains me to say this because pheasant hunting was probably second or neck and neck with deer hunting when I was younger......and even then there weren’t a ton of birds. I live in Sevier county. As a kid I could go find a rooster about any day I wanted during the hunt and this was only 10-15 years ago. Since then, numbers have decreased to literally only a handful of wild birds left.

It isn’t due to there not being birds, it is due to the habitat being gone or changing to non-pheasant friendly habitat. The pen raised birds will never make it. It doesn’t matter how many you release they’ll never be a real wild bird with all the instincts needed to survive and create viable populations. The habitat is gone. Even where I am ditch irrigation has been turned to sprinkler irrigation. People not only cut their fields, they then feed them off, and what the cows won’t eat they burn. The demise of the pheasant population here wasn’t due to not having birds it was due to farming practices and changing to sprinklers to conserve water which filled in ditches that were the only habitat left for the birds. The canals and ditches that are left are routinely burned off usually right before or during the time pheasants are nesting. There just isn’t the habitat.

There’s literally one waste irrigation ditch down where I still hunt the few that are left. It is is wasit high cover in a strip about a half mile long. That ditch still produces a few birds a year because the cover is there to sustain a very small population. I shot at and missed one rooster today along that same ditch. He’s literally the only pheasant I’ve seen all year and I’m down there daily. There used to be enough in those same areas I could find pheasants every day to hunt. The last few years I’m lucky to find one wild one. They are all but gone, and are likely not coming back because farming practices and development aren’t going to regress any.

I held out hope for a long time too, but I’m with Critter. The day of the ring neck is over here for the most part and it would be better to pour the money into chukars and other game birds that can actually sustain here.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

DallanC said:


> *All* pheasants in america came from pen raised released birds at one point. It only takes a few to get an establised population.
> 
> -DallanC


It takes habitat.....and it isn't there.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> *All* pheasants in america came from pen raised released birds at one point. It only takes a few to get an establised population.
> 
> -DallanC


Granted that they were imported, but how many were actually pen raised and how many were caught, shipped, and released over here in the US and the only pen they saw was the one that they were being transported in?

People just have to face the fact that Utah is not a pheasant state.

I would actually like to see a study done on how many of these released birds make it to the second year. I'm betting that it is zero.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

DallanC said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> > These released birds have no idea of how to survive outside of the pen. Most of them would die from predators.
> ...


I think we get that basic tenet. But how long would it take for these pen birds to multiply in meaningful ways? I'm guessing more than 5 years when you account for poor habitat on public lands in Utah and predation. They've been around for 100+ years in much of the Midwest yet states like Wisconsin still need to release 200,000+ pen raised birds each season. And that's a state with prime habitat: cropland, wetlands, tons of quality grasslands. That is a ton of supplementing each year.

And then we still have to consider the issue of birds moving into ideal habitat, ie private cropland. How many of the birds are actually going to to stay at public places like Quitchipa? I'm guessing very few. How do we increase accesss to private land (ie walk-in) in a situation like that? Not sure too many landowners would be pysched to see as many people on their land as I saw today but could be wrong.

I'm guessing the option is better up north with higher quality WMA land that has been conserved for generations.


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## ZEKESMAN (Sep 14, 2007)

True story here folks. Some guys in Sanpete County got together. They talked to some farmers, got their permission, posted their land. Every year for 5 years they released 100 Pheasant chicks when they could fly. They trapped and after 5 years they stopped releasing birds as there are more Pheasants than you can shake a stick at. You can move 30 plus birds in a 1/2 day hunt. The mortallity rate is crazy, but it only takes a few hens living to reproduce a year to build a population. Vic


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

I wish Utah would go all out for the money us hunters pour in. Utah only releases the 10k birds. I was curious to find what other states release for their hunt... i found that a non pheasant state (Pennsylvania) which could be compared to Utah- they release 218k pheasants for their hunt, and split it up with breaks, making the season go from October through February, like Utah chukars. That would be a shootout!


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I don't know about the SanPete framers growing them. Lived here all my life, but we had a good day and was able to keep the distance from others. Best hunt in years for me and my son


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

The DWR/SFW has been releasing thousands of hen pheasants at Ogden Bay the last 2 summers. I would like to know the mortality rate of those birds.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You not only have to worry about the mortality rate on the birds but the survival rate of the eggs. With all the skunks and racoon's I would wager that it is quite low.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

Critter said:


> These released birds have no idea of how to survive outside of the pen. Most of them would die from predators.


I'm not sure it would be a wholesale die-off. Imagine if the 10K released this season were just left to do their thing. I'm not a biologist, so you very well could be right.

Good point on focusing on chukar, but remember, those aren't native species either. And many pen-raised chukar are released every year.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

Fowlmouth said:


> The DWR/SFW has been releasing thousands of hen pheasants at Ogden Bay the last 2 summers. I would like to know the mortality rate of those birds.


I didn't realize that. I'd like to know that as well.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> It isn't due to there not being birds, it is due to the habitat being gone or changing to non-pheasant friendly habitat.


I wonder why we don't focus more on habitat development then. Are there any CRP lands in Utah? Seems like we should be able to do some sort of habitat work and release birds on those lands.

Maybe I should just stick to grouse.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

Thanks for all the input, everyone! Very interesting to hear all the viewpoints. I grew up in Louisiana, so hunting pheasant wasn't an option. 

This just gives me an excuse to make Rooster Road Trip to South Dakota!


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

The mortality rate is astronomical.
Sorry but you are going to have to convince the whole agricultural segment to forego clean farming. Good luck with that.


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## Cazador (Sep 4, 2014)

I would like to add that in addition to better habitat and releasing more birds we need better predator control. I saw at least 6 cats today while hunting that were wandering around fields and ditch banks at least 1/4 mile from any houses or barns. These Feral cats are one of the biggest threats to our pheasant populations.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

middlefork said:


> The mortality rate is astronomical.
> Sorry but you are going to have to convince the whole agricultural segment to forego clean farming. Good luck with that.


I wonder how it's been so successful in more pheasant-friendly states. I'm not a farmer, so I have zero insight into how any of this would actually work.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

DallanC said:


> *All* pheasants in america came from pen raised released birds at one point. It only takes a few to get an establised population


Same with chukar. And the reestablishment of the wild turkey is due in part to releasing pen-raised birds. Granted, these birds were released on their previous native lands. And turkeys are a heartier bird. But I guess my point is, we've done before, so why not with pheasants?


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

maverick9465 said:


> middlefork said:
> 
> 
> > The mortality rate is astronomical.
> ...


Even the popular states are facing "significant declines below 10 year avg" because if the change in farming. Around 2008-2012 the entire nations pheasants dropped significantly.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

@PapaMoses Good point. I had heard that. Though I'm also hearing 2018 is trending back to the right direction.


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

maverick9465 said:


> @PapaMoses Good point. I had heard that. Though I'm also hearing 2018 is trending back to the right direction.


Yeah most areas are having a better trend, although I was reading on PF and they stated it doesn't rebound to the loss of 2017 &#128533; my area here in Utah sure got hit hard, hardly any young birds around today, all Wiley ole roosters


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## wagdog (Jan 6, 2009)

I found this informative: https://www.pheasantsforever.org/Habitat/Pheasant-Facts/Pheasant-Stocking.aspx

I wish we had more habitat for the birds but apparently I missed the golden years of Utah pheasant hunts. I was down in bobwhite country then. I'm glad we still have awesome upland birds to chase though. Chukar are an amazing bird that I love to hate.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Cazador said:


> I would like to add that in addition to better habitat and releasing more birds we need better predator control. I saw at least 6 cats today while hunting that were wandering around fields and ditch banks at least 1/4 mile from any houses or barns. These Feral cats are one of the biggest threats to our pheasant populations.


Feral cats are a national issue for so many species, especially birds. I dare say its an epidemic we aren't addressing.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

maverick9465 said:


> middlefork said:
> 
> 
> > The mortality rate is astronomical.
> ...


Part of the success of maintaining population in classic pheasant states is they were established in an earlier era. Not only does that establish the population before our modern hunting pressure (caveat, they were released during the golden era of conservation and after wholesale population level hunting ended) but also helped build the culture required to develop tradition. Utah is faced with modern issues that make that difficult to impossible for this particular bird: scattered habitat primarily on private land, changing agriculture practices, higher costs of introduction, etc.

And its important to highlight, pheasant states still release hundreds of thousands of pen-raised birds a year. The populations require that for hunting. So not only would Utah have invest in the initial population but then supplement it with 10x as many birds each year as they release now (assumption: popularity will drive that need: more birds released = more hunters over time).

Do we see Utah investing in that cause? Do they have the budget to release birds to the scale it requires? Do we have the finances and cultural capital to open up more private land to public hunting? Capital to invest in the pheasant's ideal habitat, especially in the face of mounting public demand for waterwise agricultural practices? And doing so knowing that we are developing rural land into housing/etc at an astonishing rate, ie problems with sustaining habitat.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

*copy of Idaho study*

Idaho (2009). David M. Musil & John W. Connelly. Survival and reproduction of pen-reared vs translocated wild pheasants (Wildl. Biol. 15:80-8







. Compared vital rates of two different (pen-reared and wild) ring-necked pheasant stocks and assessed effects of predator control on these pheasants released into current range. Wild (31 males and 112 females) and pen-reared (230 males and 1,059 females) ring-necked pheasants were released in spring into two areas in southern Idaho during 2000-2001 to augment low resident populations. Wild female survival from March to October was significantly greater than that of pen-reared females in both 2000 (40% vs 4%) and 2001 (43% vs 8%). During 2001, predators were removed within our study areas. Survival did not increase for either stock of female pheasants after predator removal. Predator control did not increase the number of hens surviving to reach the nesting season (1 May), nesting rate or nest success. Wild female pheasants were seven times more likely to survive translocation to 1 October, ten times more likely to survive to the nesting season, eight times more productive, and one-third as expensive per egg hatched than pen-reared females. Low survival, poor productivity and higher costs of spring-released pen-reared female pheasants strongly suggest that this is an inappropriate management tool for increasing pheasant numbers


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Cazador said:


> I would like to add that in addition to better habitat and releasing more birds we need better predator control. I saw at least 6 cats today while hunting that were wandering around fields and ditch banks at least 1/4 mile from any houses or barns. These Feral cats are one of the biggest threats to our pheasant populations.


True, predator control always helps and can't hurt. Again it comes back to habitat. Skunks, raccoons, foxes, all have a much easier time finding nests when there is only one strip of habitat for them to look in.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

maverick9465 said:


> I wonder how it's been so successful in more pheasant-friendly states. I'm not a farmer, so I have zero insight into how any of this would actually work.


The farming landscapes in Utah are nothing compared to the midwest or eastern states. We have tiny little farmland sections, not habitat as far as the eye can see. It's just different. Utah's habitat has never been great for pheasants, but it is far worse now than it was 20,30, and 40 years ago by a long shot. The chances I or we ever see birds like we used to is probably near zero. That hurts to say, because I miss hunting pheasants and actually seeing some in the fields I used to hunt and the thought soon those will likely just be memories is very saddening to me, but some times the truth is a sad reality.


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

I can attest that predator control works. Several years ago on our ditchbank we trapped it very heavily from December through July. After 2 years and around 70-100 predators removed (skunks, *****, a handful of foxes, and a yote). The next 2-3 seasons we went from seeing no birds- to seeing 3-4 roosters per season getting shot at. We since had stopped trapping and the pheasants are all but gone again.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Packfish said:


> Idaho (2009). David M. Musil & John W. Connelly. Survival and reproduction of pen-reared vs translocated wild pheasants (Wildl. Biol. 15:80-8
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I was just about to go looking for studies as I knew I had seen the mortality percentage of pen raised birds being in the high 90s. Total waste of money if you're hoping to augment or establish an actual population for pheasants.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Papa Moses said:


> I can attest that predator control works. Several years ago on our ditchbank we trapped it very heavily from December through July. After 2 years and around 70-100 predators removed (skunks, *****, a handful of foxes, and a yote). The next 2-3 seasons we went from seeing no birds- to seeing 3-4 roosters per season getting shot at. We since had stopped trapping and the pheasants are all but gone again.


Another big problem is the fact that pressurized irrigation systems were introduced to take place of ditch banks. Much more efficient watering method for crops, but not so good for the birds. We always had pheasants on our farm in Sanpete county, until the sprinklers came and the ditches went. Nothing better than hunting ditch banks for pheasants.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Fowlmouth said:


> Another big problem is the fact that pressurized irrigation systems were introduced to take place of ditch banks. Much more efficient watering method for crops, but not so good for the birds. We always had pheasants on our farm in Sanpete county, until the sprinklers came and the ditches went. Nothing better than hunting ditch banks for pheasants.


 I think as soon as I could walk my old man threw me in a ditch--but I enjoyed it.Wish I could do it with him again--


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## guner (Sep 25, 2007)

ZEKESMAN said:


> True story here folks. Some guys in Sanpete County got together. They talked to some farmers, got their permission, posted their land. Every year for 5 years they released 100 Pheasant chicks when they could fly. They trapped and after 5 years they stopped releasing birds as there are more Pheasants than you can shake a stick at. You can move 30 plus birds in a 1/2 day hunt. The mortallity rate is crazy, but it only takes a few hens living to reproduce a year to build a population. Vic


So I grew up, hunting down Richfield, Aurora areas in the 80's early 90's they had Pheasant hunting "units" (like Lakeview down at Utah lake.) you bought a trespass permit and could hunt every parcel that was posted for that hunting unit. I know for a fact that many landowners picked up a nice chunk of change with this, plus the towns in the area did very well with the huge "tourist" type of influx. Now when they rerouted I15 a several years ago, many of those small towns are dying off. I wonder if the towns and farmers would be interested in doing things to make areas more conducive to Pheasants, if it injected much needed money into the areas ? I would bet if the state was willing to give some concessions (which I'm sure they aren't) and a reserection of the landowners "hunting units" there would be a huge amount of hunter support. The sheer number of people/vehicles I saw Saturday at Pheasant release areas is testament of that. Hell we could resserect the upland habitat stamp and get plenty of money to pay a farmer to leave his ditch banks and fence lines, maybe an area uncut for habitat. I am certain the amount of money lost for leaving some uncut area vs. getting a stipend from state/hunting groups would be negligible.

Sorry for my soap box. I have considered this on and off for years.

Although I hunt Chuckers on occasion and enjoy it, I am sick of hearing that Chuckers are the only viable bird we should donate to and invest in.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Most rural towns had a pheasant hunting permit that you first had to purchase before going afield. The areas I remember back in the 80's and 90's with the permits were Fountain Green, Cedar Fort, Fairfield, Lakeshore, Lakepoint, Erda, Vernon and Goshen. We always got our birds......I'm sure there were a lot more of these areas that had permits too.


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

guner said:


> ZEKESMAN said:
> 
> 
> > True story here folks. Some guys in Sanpete County got together. They talked to some farmers, got their permission, posted their land. Every year for 5 years they released 100 Pheasant chicks when they could fly. They trapped and after 5 years they stopped releasing birds as there are more Pheasants than you can shake a stick at. You can move 30 plus birds in a 1/2 day hunt. The mortallity rate is crazy, but it only takes a few hens living to reproduce a year to build a population. Vic
> ...


I've had the same thoughts myself, glad I'm not the only crazy. I don't mind chukars, heck they're the most delicious bird out there, but I can't stop the addiction of a flushing wild rooster! If Utah could use a stamp as a statewide "unit" such as lakeshore. We could have more pheasants released for the hunt, and more habitat preserved!


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I’ve been to South Dakota eight times and never shot a pen raised bird - I’ve read in different places on this thread about how many states release birds to help the population - could some of the people making these claims please provide links to substantiate their position? Same with the release of chukars. 

I know in the area where my family has property in SD, water plays a bigger role than nearly anything else - with the proper amount of rain at the right time, there is an abundance of puddles for the chicks to drink out of, good cover growth for the chicks to hide in, and lots of insects for the chicks to eat. 

Utah’s cash cow is big game animals and skiing - hence why so much time and resources are spent developing and marketing these resources. I think the DNR is trying to boost the population by letting hens go in areas like Ogden Bay, but the release of birds for and during the pheasant hunt is just for slaughter.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

CPAjeff said:


> I've been to South Dakota eight times and never shot a pen raised bird -


Oh South Dakota!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

CPAJeff,

Wisconsin DNR releases roughly 75k a year, though they use to raise upward of 250k a year decades ago:

https://www.outdoornews.com/2018/03/05/wisconsin-state-game-farm-pheasant-releases-good-thing/

Doesn't look like SD DNR releases birds but the private reserves release hundreds of thousands a year. In 2014 it was 434,000. From reports it seems like SD has a healthy, growing wild population.

https://www.capjournal.com/news/phe...cle_739c77b2-0e36-11e4-9396-001a4bcf887a.html

Pennsylvania now releases 200,000 birds but released upwards of 400k+ until the 80s:

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/Ring-NeckedPheasant/Pages/PheasantHistory.aspx

Just a few. And only WI listed day old chick programs in their list so some numbers may not include those releases.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

backcountry,

Thanks for the links!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

CPAjeff said:


> backcountry,
> 
> Thanks for the links!


No worries.

I knew the basic history of the bird but have been shocked by the immense effort it takes to maintain these populations outside a handful of states. I thought most of the midwest had established wild populations that were stable and thriving.

But what does it say for a state like Utah when so many prime agricultural states are seeing major crashes in their populations? And these are states with roughly a 100 years of tradition. It seems the majority of states are confronting the issue of shrinking pheasant habitat.

The positive note is I now have a reason to visit South Dakota again. I think I read their wild population is up almost 60%!

Learn something new everyday. I think like most of us I've enjoyed learning about our game as much as I enjoy hunting them. At least on the days I can't hunt. &#128527;


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

Pheasants are akin to rainbow trout. The best thing the DWR can do is release a bunch of them to be taken home by the consumer, US. I'd like to see them raise 100k birds and extend the season to the end of December for release each weekend. You'll never see a recovery of enough habitat to make a difference at this point but could still provide for the opportunity to get out and wear your kids and dogs out walking fields. A few (if REALLY lucky 5%) will survive year to year, providing a bonus of a larger bird every now and again. Add a $15 "pheasant" stamp to supplement the cost of the birds. There's clearly plenty of interest, every parking lot of a release site was overflowing Saturday morning. In my opinion, that's the only viable pheasant hunting option in this state anymore for the reasons everyone has already discussed.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I see a few comments abour raising the price or adding the cost of some sort of stamp. I don't think that is necessary to raise more pheasants. SFW gets plenty of sportsmans dollars already. If they can raise 10,000 they could raise 100,000. Believe it or not raised and released pheasants is no new thing. The DWR used to raise thousands of their own and release them decades ago.


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

USMARINEhuntinfool said:


> Pheasants are akin to rainbow trout. The best thing the DWR can do is release a bunch of them to be taken home by the consumer, US. I'd like to see them raise 100k birds and extend the season to the end of December for release each weekend. You'll never see a recovery of enough habitat to make a difference at this point but could still provide for the opportunity to get out and wear your kids and dogs out walking fields. A few (if REALLY lucky 5%) will survive year to year, providing a bonus of a larger bird every now and again. Add a $15 "pheasant" stamp to supplement the cost of the birds. There's clearly plenty of interest, every parking lot of a release site was overflowing Saturday morning. In my opinion, that's the only viable pheasant hunting option in this state anymore for the reasons everyone has already discussed.


Amen.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

USMARINEhuntinfool said:


> Pheasants are akin to rainbow trout. The best thing the DWR can do is release a bunch of them to be taken home by the consumer, US. I'd like to see them raise 100k birds and extend the season to the end of December for release each weekend. You'll never see a recovery of enough habitat to make a difference at this point but could still provide for the opportunity to get out and wear your kids and dogs out walking fields. A few (if REALLY lucky 5%) will survive year to year, providing a bonus of a larger bird every now and again. Add a $15 "pheasant" stamp to supplement the cost of the birds. There's clearly plenty of interest, every parking lot of a release site was overflowing Saturday morning. In my opinion, that's the only viable pheasant hunting option in this state anymore for the reasons everyone has already discussed.


It isn't like Utah has a lack of money. It all depends on the allocation of resources. All the auction tags leave them at the top of the income for hunting in the west.

Some species like Big Horn Sheep and Mountain goats cost a ton of money to manage and other species like Chukars do not cost a lot to manage. It comes down to where they spend the money.

They could do a pheasant specific fund raising such as a stamp or they could allocate resources to put more pheasants in the field.

It is a popular bird and they should look into releasing more.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

The most common complaint I hear or read about is how crowded and dangerous the release areas are.
A few years ago, when the youth hunt was a 1 day hunt, the kids had to sign up in advance. They were then given a time slot to show up and hunt. More birds were released in between time slots. If we went this route with the general opener on the release areas there would be less people hunting at the same time. They could release more pheasants in the areas at the start, so they don't have to release birds between time slots. Yes the first time slot would be the best draw, but there would still be plenty of opportunity for the other groups coming in later. The crowds thin out after the first day, so it would only be a one day draw. Make it so everyone draws and gets a chance to shoot a dumb pen raised chicken. You wouldn't have to use this system at every release site, just the more common one's where the bulk of hunters go.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

^^^^ This!


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

If you want released birds, long seasons, scheduled hunt times, and limited crowding... hunt on a shooting preserve. My family did so for years, and had a great time.

I'm not too keen on the idea of having to buy a pheasant stamp to pay for these released birds when I hunt wild birds only. I would be open to a stamp if it went toward habitat improvement, however.


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## Gordon (Sep 11, 2007)

Just look to our northern neighbors, Idaho. They release birds on WMA areas. You have to buy a WMA pheasant permit with 5 tags. You tag your birds as you shoot them. You can buy as many 5 bird permits as you wish. That way the people hunting the birds are funding it. A great idea I wish we would try here.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Clarq said:


> If you want released birds, long seasons, scheduled hunt times, and limited crowding... hunt on a shooting preserve. My family did so for years, and had a great time.


But you have to pay for those preserve birds, and they ain't free.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Gordon said:


> Just look to our northern neighbors, Idaho. They release birds on WMA areas. You have to buy a WMA pheasant permit with 5 tags. You tag your birds as you shoot them. You can buy as many 5 bird permits as you wish. That way the people hunting the birds are funding it. A great idea I wish we would try here.


That is an idea I could get behind


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

Clarq said:


> If you want released birds, long seasons, scheduled hunt times, and limited crowding... hunt on a shooting preserve. My family did so for years, and had a great time.
> 
> I'm not too keen on the idea of having to buy a pheasant stamp to pay for these released birds when I hunt wild birds only. I would be open to a stamp if it went toward habitat improvement, however.


This is why a pheasant stamp would pay for not only the release of birds, but for the purchase of habitat and preservation of present habitat.

Utah is unfortunately doomed for pheasants, but with some swift action we could save what we have.

In my opinion, and based off of what we all have said the best option would be a state pheasant stamp that would:
- enable the state to purchase more roosters to release throughout the hunt
- enable the state to purchase land from the horrors of the housing market
- enable the state to purchase the seed to grow wildlife habitat (pheasant, quail, dove, duck, etc.) be that corn fields, Russian olive trees, salt grass whatever
- enable the state to release hens in the spring for breeding (an extra 5% of hens that survive- each of those hens having 8-10 eggs can add up over time)
- and pay a bounty for ***** and skunks (be it $5-10)that would add some incentive for people to start some local predator control that benefits the farmers, and the birds
- enable the state to offer incentive for farmers to refrain from burning off ditch banks, and completely stripping the fields of feed and cover
- and lastly start up a Utah CRP and CREP program to benefit the wild birds for years to come

If we can spread the word we can save the bird we love pursuing.


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## guner (Sep 25, 2007)

Papa Moses said:


> Clarq said:
> 
> 
> > If you want released birds, long seasons, scheduled hunt times, and limited crowding... hunt on a shooting preserve. My family did so for years, and had a great time.
> ...


So probably not many still have one of these kicking around &#128521;

it's not a new thing and upland hunters bought it in the past. I would just want some reassurance/transparency that it actually went toward what it was supposed to go for and not line someone's pocket or go to general fund.
We could do ALOT of habitat improvement and such if it went to the right place. Whatever became of those previous dollars from habitat stamp ? We really could be successful in this if it was done right.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

guner said:


> So probably not many still have one of these kicking around &#128521;


Surprise! I have all of my stamps, and in the mid-late 90's the habitat stamp went to the habitat authorization license (purple one) and I have all those too. Heck, I even have a bunch of pheasant hunting land use permits from the 80's and 90's.....Oh yeah, the 3 stamps on each license are Federal duck, Utah Habitat and Utah duck stamp. Yep there was a state duck stamp back then too. The money generated from those stamps ended up in a general fund and from my understanding was never used to support wildlife or habitat. Someone can correct me on that if I'm misunderstood.


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## guner (Sep 25, 2007)

Nice Fowl👍 I still have a bunch of my Aurora and Redmond unit trespass tags. See I think if we could do a habitat stamp and ensure that money went to the right place instead some “other” political agenda item. Hell we can’t give more money to schools and teachers without them tacking road improvement on it !!!!

I had heard the same thing about the general fund back in the day.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Having hunted the Uintah Basin most of my life until recent years when we no longer bother I can tell you that the habitat has not had a material change at all. Where we hunt and own land out there it is still 95% flood irrigation, so the same ditch banks of cover as in the 60's. I have also hunted the Corinne area and nearly identical, habitat has not really changed at all.
However, the one major change is that the raccoon populations in both areas has absolutely exploded. The ditch banks that used to be covered in pheasant tracks are now covered with raccoon tracks. The homestead keeps a Great Pyrenees just to keep the ***** from eating all of their chickens. These guys are farming the exact same way as the 60's, 70's and 80's with only minor changes to more efficient equipment and still use the same herbicides and fertilizers. I can't speak for the whole state, but in my two corners of the state where I have hunted that is my observation and the same observation of those who live right there. 
Clearly, releasing the pen raised birds is not a great solution, we see several eaten by morning when they have been released the night before. I appreciate the effort the DWR makes so that we can have a few to hunt, it has always been my favorite hunt.
From stories of those who hunt the Dakotas and Eastern Montana I understand that 90% of those areas are dry farm, so that could lend to the argument to a degree about habitat in that they have not had any of these pivots replace the ditches, but from what I understand there is a lot less predators too.


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

Huge29 said:


> Having hunted the Uintah Basin most of my life until recent years when we no longer bother I can tell you that the habitat has not had a material change at all. Where we hunt and own land out there it is still 95% flood irrigation, so the same ditch banks of cover as in the 60's. I have also hunted the Corinne area and nearly identical, habitat has not really changed at all.
> However, the one major change is that the raccoon populations in both areas has absolutely exploded. The ditch banks that used to be covered in pheasant tracks are now covered with raccoon tracks. The homestead keeps a Great Pyrenees just to keep the ***** from eating all of their chickens. These guys are farming the exact same way as the 60's, 70's and 80's with only minor changes to more efficient equipment and still use the same herbicides and fertilizers. I can't speak for the whole state, but in my two corners of the state where I have hunted that is my observation and the same observation of those who live right there.
> Clearly, releasing the pen raised birds is not a great solution, we see several eaten by morning when they have been released the night before. I appreciate the effort the DWR makes so that we can have a few to hunt, it has always been my favorite hunt.
> From stories of those who hunt the Dakotas and Eastern Montana I understand that 90% of those areas are dry farm, so that could lend to the argument to a degree about habitat in that they have not had any of these pivots replace the ditches, but from what I understand there is a lot less predators too.


That's awesome to hear somewhere in Utah still holds habitat. As I mentioned earlier I have experimented with our ditch bank and trapping and IT WORKS! But the gloom for Utah, Davis, Juab, and tooele county birds are facing habitat loss, and predator abundance

Earlier in the thread Compiled a "stamp" idea that not only produced the habitat, more money for birds released, but also a simple bounty to offer incentive for ***** and other predators.


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## guner (Sep 25, 2007)

If there were some bounty it would be sooo worth killing all those egg sucking rats. I remember as a kind we never saw raccoons anywhere, then people started getting them as pets all over in a big fad. Now days they are EVERYWHERE. I’m not a biologist and can’t say there were none in the state, but it seemed very few. I would be willing to chip some money in the bounty pot.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

1080




-DallanC


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

guner said:


> If there were some bounty it would be sooo worth killing all those egg sucking rats. I remember as a kind we never saw raccoons anywhere, then people started getting them as pets all over in a big fad. Now days they are EVERYWHERE. I'm not a biologist and can't say there were none in the state, but it seemed very few. I would be willing to chip some money in the bounty pot.


Racoons aren't native to Utah so its a fair conclusion that their populations are growing. Probably astronomically given how they acclimatize to suburban sprawl Its one of the animals I support eradicating in the state. Introducing generalist and omnivores like racoons to environs they're not native to is a disaster across the board.

I'm game for an old school pheasant tag if it goes to habitat.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

We do our part when we can.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Desire of Utah to have sustainable pheasant hunts is about like Montana hoping to have alligator hunts, or Arizona to host caribou hunting. Square pegs in round holes. If you want to hunt caribou, go to Alaska. If you want to hunt elk, Utah or Colorado. And if you want to hunt pheasants, go to the midwest. Pheasant hunting in Utah will never be anything but put and take. And the private market can provide that through hunting preserves. UDWR should not invest anything in pheasant hunting. But that's just me. And I don't even live in Utah anymore. Now that I'm thinking about it, have at it Utah. Go crazy with all the funds you can to have your pheasants in a barrel shooting days. If it keeps you south of Malad, then that much better. 8)


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

GaryFish said:


> Desire of Utah to have sustainable pheasant hunts is about like Montana hoping to have alligator hunts, or Arizona to host caribou hunting. Square pegs in round holes. If you want to hunt caribou, go to Alaska. If you want to hunt elk, Utah or Colorado. And if you want to hunt pheasants, go to the midwest. Pheasant hunting in Utah will never be anything but put and take. And the private market can provide that through hunting preserves. UDWR should not invest anything in pheasant hunting. But that's just me. And I don't even live in Utah anymore. Now that I'm thinking about it, have at it Utah. Go crazy with all the funds you can to have your pheasants in a barrel shooting days. If it keeps you south of Malad, then that much better.


BUT! Utah did have pheasants, so you're telling me Montana had gators lol. I'm just kidding I think we are all just a little sad to see a fun gamebird dissapear that used to be here in good numbers


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Papa Moses said:


> BUT! Utah did have pheasants, so you're telling me Montana had gators lol. I'm just kidding I think we are all just a little sad to see a fun gamebird dissapear that used to be here in good numbers


Utah also had a lot more farmland. Just about the whole southern end of Salt Lake Valley along with most of the land in Utah County was farmland. Even the majority of the town of Orem was either farms or orchards where the birds would thrive. Irrigation was done by flood irrigation through ditches, now it is pressurized irrigation. A lot of things that kept birds around.

But not no more.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

Hey all, thanks for all the discussion here. FYI, I also posted these questions to Jason Robinson, UDWR upland game coordinator. Below is his response (shared with his permission). Bottom line, it is all about habitat. If you haven't joined Pheasants Forever, this would be the time! Great org doing alot to improve pheasant habitat locally.https://www.pheasantsforever.org/

Jason's response:

Your questions are good ones. I will try and answer them very directly. Closing or pausing a hunting season will not increase the population at all. There is much research on this topic. It's complicated, but basically, the birds that are killed during the hunting season would have died from other causes, the mortality is compensated by a different form. If you have two areas that are exactly the same in everyway, but one is hunted and one is not. In five years, the two will have the same population size. Hunting does not effect the long term population.

Yes, pheasants are not native to Utah, there were introduced here in the late 1800s. Most of the introductions were from pen raised birds. The reason it was successful is that people released millions of pheasants in ideal habitat. Think of the amount of agriculture and ditch irrigation in the early 1900s here in Utah. We don't have that type of habitat anymore, and we don't have the resources to release millions of pheasants either. Utah is the second driest state, barley above Nevada in precipitation. Nevada is not a great state for pheasants. Utah is pretty lucky to have pheasants.

Habitat work to benefit pheasants is always being done on property where it can be done, however, pheasants are very closely tied to private lands. UDWR does not manage private lands. Farming practices have more impact on pheasant populations than anything else. Because of this, UDWR purchases male pheasants, not females, and releases them during the hunting season for hunters to harvest. If the males are not harvested their survival rate to the next spring is anywhere from ZERO to about 4%. These numbers come from research. Pen raised pheasants are not the way to increase or start new populations. The best and only way is through habitat work, mostly on private lands. If you want a great example of habitat work for pheasants on public land, check out the ogden bay WMA uplands. The work being done there will increase the number of pheasants.

There are private landowners that participate in the CRP program in Utah, most are in east box elder county. That is a federal program, UDWR is not involved in it. It is a great way to help with wild game bird populations.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Does anyone over the age of 14 actually think that shooting pen raised birds is exciting and satisfying?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

blackdog said:


> Does anyone over the age of 14 actually think that shooting pen raised birds is exciting and satisfying?


With the number of people that are out and waiting for the birds to be released just to shoot them I would say yes to that question.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

blackdog said:


> Does anyone over the age of 14 actually think that shooting pen raised birds is exciting and satisfying?


As a novice I find myself conflicted. Just doesn't seem sporting and flies in the face of so many classic hunting ethics I value.

But it also gets me outside during the cold season, helps me learn some basic skills and occasionally puts meat on my table. I justify because of their low survival rate but I'm not sure how long that will last before I choose to walk away from it.


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## wagdog (Jan 6, 2009)

I wouldn't look down on someone hunting pen raised birds. There are plenty of anglers who love chasing stocked trout, catfish, CARP, and other species that aren't considered desirable by all anglers.

Hunting and fishing is a very personal thing in my opinion. I hunt birds because I love dogs and good dog work. My dog doesn't seem to mind pen raised versus wild. He is learning from both. If y'all don't want to hunt pen raised birds then don't. No harm, no foul. Others are willing to hunt them and that is just fine too.


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## ZEKESMAN (Sep 14, 2007)

blackdog said:


> Does anyone over the age of 14 actually think that shooting pen raised birds is exciting and satisfying?


Yep I do. 
Fun to get out with friends and family.
Bird dogs need birds. Vic


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I personally don't judge anyone for enjoying it. I agree that angling and hunting are highly personal.

The comparison to hatchery sport fish is fair. Makes me wonder why I had such a response to the pen-raised pheasants as I'm never been concerned about stocked trout. Gives me something to think about.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

blackdog said:


> Does anyone over the age of 14 actually think that shooting pen raised birds is exciting and satisfying?


Man, I've sure missed your piss poor attitude and pessimistic comments! Please come around more often! -O,-


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

The DWR need to release the birds at night in the dark. Too many people following right behind the truck and basically shooting the birds out of the cages. The trucks show up on the same day and time every week and everyone knows it. I have seen this for years and can't figure out why the trucks drive the exact same route and release in the exact same spots. If I were driving the truck and releasing, you can bet your @ss you would earn every bird you shot. I don't have a problem shooting pen raised birds, but make it somewhat challenging.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Last year I actually watched some kids that followed the G&F truck to a release site, they then texted their buddies that were at another release location. 15 minutes later there were a dozen hunters after 5 or so birds. 

The bad thing about this one was that the birds were released on a waterfowl WMA where you need to pay attention to the shooting hours and shot in your shells. These kids were out way after shooting hours and when we questioned them they recited the pheasant rules. The G&F who had released the birds did nothing and they were there with only 15 minutes of shooting time left.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

My dad talks about seeing the same thing in his youth when they released trout into midwest rivers.


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## quackaddict35 (Sep 25, 2015)

I realized this a while ago, Utah isn’t a pheasant state. Yes we have some but the wild population is so low and the spots that hold them are guarded and few and far between. If shooting pheasants is what you want to do, go to a pheasant club. If you want to take on the challenge of finding wild ones then that’s awesome and good for you. But it’d be a waste of resources to try and grow a population here beyond what it is, that’s just the harsh reality. I got a membership at Wasatch Wing and clay a while back, I go out a handful of times throughout the year get to watch my dog work a field and find and flush pheasants it’s a good time and I don’t have to worry about some yahoos sending bird shot my way at a flushing rooster. 


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> The DWR need to release the birds at night in the dark. Too many people following right behind the truck and basically shooting the birds out of the cages. The trucks show up on the same day and time every week and everyone knows it. I have seen this for years and can't figure out why the trucks drive the exact same route and release in the exact same spots. If I were driving the truck and releasing, you can bet your @ss you would earn every bird you shot. I don't have a problem shooting pen raised birds, but make it somewhat challenging.


If they'd wait until legal shooting hours end, it would still be light enough for the birds to see where they're going, and keep the trap shooters at bay.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The big problem with letting them go just before dark is that there are more than a few locations that are going to get them and not enough officers to go around as far a dumping them out at that time. 

Perhaps this is where they could get some folks that are in the dedicated hunter program involved, but that would have to be looked at.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Critter said:


> The big problem with letting them go just before dark is that there are more than a few locations that are going to get them and not enough officers to go around as far a dumping them out at that time.
> 
> Perhaps this is where they could get some folks that are in the dedicated hunter program involved, but that would have to be looked at.


Shuffle their schedules around for 1 day a week for a month, problem solved. They could work the afternoon shift. It wouldn't matter because they would spend the same amount of hours releasing at night as they spend in the day.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Maybe they should announce when they will be releasing the birds and where - that way the folks that wanted to could show up at the same time as the releasers and say, “Pull!” or the releasers could just hand everyone a rooster and no one would need to fire a shell.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

ZEKESMAN said:


> True story here folks. Some guys in Sanpete County got together. They talked to some farmers, got their permission, posted their land. Every year for 5 years they released 100 Pheasant chicks when they could fly. They trapped and after 5 years they stopped releasing birds as there are more Pheasants than you can shake a stick at. You can move 30 plus birds in a 1/2 day hunt. The mortallity rate is crazy, but it only takes a few hens living to reproduce a year to build a population. Vic


The rest of the story - hunters used to be able to buy a trespass permit. Funds from those permits were distributed to landowners. Those landowners died and their lands passed on to their kids, many of whom had little interest in growing crops. Of those few who did carry on, most encountered financial challenges that made farming/ranching difficult if not impossible. (Ask any Sanpete rancher how he fared this year.) Yup, growing pheasants is easy IF the habitat is there and fact is, most of the fields I hunted back in the day around Wales are now fallow and hold no pheasants.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Finnegan said:


> (Ask any Sanpete rancher how he fared this year.)


I don't think a lot of those Sanpete alfalfa farmers are struggling with the way they send all of their hay to China. ;-)


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

CPAjeff said:


> Man, I've sure missed your piss poor attitude and pessimistic comments! Please come around more often! -O,-


What took you so long? You usually respond to my post within a couple minutes. Your obsession with me is flattering.


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

blackdog said:


> Does anyone over the age of 14 actually think that shooting pen raised birds is exciting and satisfying?


I sure do, especially when I can take my kids who are too young to handle a shotgun.


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

blackdog said:


> Does anyone over the age of 14 actually think that shooting pen raised birds is exciting and satisfying?


I love it! Especially when it gives the dog something to boost confidence for wild birds- and me too!


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## guner (Sep 25, 2007)

I really don't think there is anything so fantastic as hunting/flushing wild birds, that said I don't have a problem with anyone hunting the "clubs" or whatever, more important than watching my dog hunt (which is always a good time) its being able to get my 3 boys out and hunting, it has paid off by getting them excited about going hunting and not just sitting at home playing PlayStation.

But to me, there will NEVER be anything that is more enjoyable and sentimental than Pheasant hunting.


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## DAdams23 (Sep 28, 2018)

It’s all about the predator control. Pheasants Forever wouldn’t open up a chapter in Tooele County because of the number of feral cats. We will never have pheasants unless people stop trying to kill all the birds and start killing the raccoons, feral cats, and foxes/coyotes


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## DAdams23 (Sep 28, 2018)

Maybe no more dogs haha haha my success rate would go down without my father in laws dogs for sure


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

DAdams23 said:


> It's all about the predator control. Pheasants Forever wouldn't open up a chapter in Tooele County because of the number of feral cats. We will never have pheasants unless people stop trying to kill all the birds and start killing the raccoons, feral cats, and foxes/coyotes
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Agreed!!!! Habitat, less predators, and partial pheasant supplemental planting would lead to higher numbers


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## Fowl_faith (Aug 27, 2015)

In my walks this season I have came across 2 hens that we’re being eaten by hawks both had been killed that day. Raccoons, foxes, cats and skunks do damage as also. When I grew up I remember my grandpa would shoot the cats and hawks for that reason these days I feel you’d get jail time for it.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You can't shoot hawks, but on the other hand feral cats have a year long season on them. Just make sure that you are in a area that has the feral cats.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Before I start something I would just like to know if you consider pheasants that are released from a hunt club and are not shot- are those birds now considered "planted birds" and could they start next years birds ?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Fowl_faith said:


> In my walks this season I have came across 2 hens that we're being eaten by hawks both had been killed that day. Raccoons, foxes, cats and skunks do damage as also. When I grew up I remember my grandpa would shoot the cats and hawks for that reason these days I feel you'd get jail time for it.


Yeah, hawks have been protected for a century by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. Its a law thats taken pretty seriously across the country.


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