# Grouping



## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Ok, so I've set a project for myself... probably won't be done next week because I'm going to the coast for five days. I'm going to try and shoot as tight a group as I can on all the targets at our archery park. What would you guys say are "acceptable" killing (as opposed to wounding... thought I'd clarify) groups out to 60 yards? Granted, i have the "10 ring" as a guide but real animals don't have ten rings or orange dots on the X but seriously... what would you want to be shooting groupwise with say... 6 arrows shot consecutively before you could say, alright, I'm ready to hunt. I'm going to do groups from a fifteen foot tree stand setup as well, but wanted to hear what you guys thought. I've heard the pie plate theory but would like to get about a coffee can lid group at 60, softball size groups to 40 yards and baseball size closer than that. I know its doable... I've done it but haven't shot for a week and a half or so, so I'm going to work myself back into shooting tight groups. Boy, its telling when you take some time off. :lol: Yeah, it may take some tuning and a lot of practice but I have no excuse for not getting that done with the facilities I have available. If you guys have pictures of your groups that you think are "good" then post em up... say in ten yard increments from <20, 20, 30, 40, 50, and then 60. Longer ones are good if you've got em. I may do the same with mine. Question, do you space your arrows out on different "spots" at a given range or do you use the clump idea.. put em all as close as you can to the X and if you tag one.. well, thats the way it goes?


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

Just keep shooting, none of us are ready to hunt, otherwise we would call it killing.


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## Anaconda Pintler (Oct 29, 2007)

Real animals do not deserve to be shot at at 60 yards! But keep practicing that makes those twenty yard shots dumpers! :wink:


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

Anaconda Pintler said:


> Real animals do not deserve to be shot at at 60 yards! But keep practicing that makes those twenty yard shots dumpers! :wink:


Is a wolf considered a 'real' animal?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I have to shoot at different spots with each arrow. Otherwise I have to pull my second arrow out of the first each time. Since I don't work for an arrow manufacturer, I can't afford to ruin every other arrow that I shoot. If you can hit a potgut at 60 yards with every shot, you are competent enough to shoot deer at 20. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Anaconda Pintler said:


> Real animals do not deserve to be shot at at 60 yards! But keep practicing that makes those twenty yard shots dumpers! :wink:


Thats pretty much the way I'm hoping it will work. We have a deer set way out at about 80 yards... WAYYYY to far for me to risk shooting at, and like Loke said, I even work for the manufacturer but why waste arrows on a shot I don't know I can make? The furthest target I shoot at is a bighorn ram at about 62 yards, depending on where you stand. Yes, you do have to hold a hair high (60 pin right below the top of the back with my bow)... and I actually need to reset my pins for the Tracers I'm shooting with. The smallest target I'll shoot that far is a mulie buck at 50 yards.... I can put a group a slight bit bigger than a ten ring on that target at this point. Granted, the target is very relaxed, unaware of my presence and is not likely to jump the string and or browse further down the range or present me with an unethical shot. :lol: I'm hoping I can be "sneaky" enough to close to within a distance I know I can make a shot at... and then justify a spring and summers worth of practice. 8) I'm going to take my camera to work tomorrow and if I forget there is my new camera phone. I'll get some grouping pics and post em up... kinda file em away for my own use too, just so I can track my progress until hunting season. Should turn out to be kinda fun, if only for my own entertainment.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Once I get it tuned with 20 yard 3 inch groups, I start shooting at paper animal targets to get ready for the hunt. Maybe I could and should do better with bullseyes, but I must have a disposition for target panic 'cause I start second guessing with red dots in front of me. However, I can shoot animal targets all day, and like you said, the real animals don't have bullseyes painted on. Besides, game animals don't always stay put for second shots, they don't always position themselves standing broadside, they come in from different angles, they drop below your aiming point at the sound of a release, they don't often present a shot at exactly 20, 30, 60 yards, and they can catch you off guard so that you have to shoot in an awkward position. I like to concentrate my practice in different positions and distances out to 30 yards one arrow at a time looking at the animals I hunt from the ground and from a ladder treestand in the backyard. (I'm planning on getting some 3-D targets next month.)

Now, that being said and since each of us is different, I would suggest that you get your field points in tight groups shooting at the same spot. You might damage some fletching, but probably not many. (I think it's a kick to Robin Hood an arrow with field points.), However, shoot at different spots with broadheads or you'll just have to replace or repair a lot more of them without the satisfaction of having a Robin Hooded trophy arrow to show your friends. And get on animal targets sometime soon!

Have a great and safe hunt!


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

They're all animals where I shoot. You guys want to shoot, give me a holler and we'll hook up. Its a simple place to shoot, but kinda fun with all the different distances and looks you can create. I wish they had some fake trees and stuff you could move around to present "windows" for shots and stuff like that. They have a FITA side but those wound up targets are harder than heck to pull arrows from, even with venom on the shaft so I stick to the 3D side.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

In a hunting situation weather or not you can "group" arrows will have little bearing on weather you will be successful or not. Confidence in your equipment and your ability to stay cool under pressure will go a lot farther than "grouping" ability. Just remember, aim small, miss small. :wink:


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> In a hunting situation weather or not you can "group" arrows will have little bearing on weather you will be successful or not. Confidence in your equipment and your ability to stay cool under pressure will go a lot farther than "grouping" ability. Just remember, aim small, miss small. :wink:


Tex, how do you feel about shooting in rain, wind, hot weather, etc. If you could shoot every day until hunting season... would you? I have a couple guys (yeah, they're just target guys mostly) that tell me I'm nuts to go out and shoot in a gusting wind or wear my duck hunting coat to go shoot in the rain. My counter to that is that I can't expect perfect weather when I'm up on the mountain so I better be able to make the shot regardless of what the weather is doing. Am I up in the night or am I right in that I need to practice for as many conditions as I can?


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## EvenOlderFudd (Jun 18, 2008)

Put up a paper plate. Start shooting at about ten yards. Next day move back to 20 yards. 
And so on.. this has helped me for years. Sounds kinda far fetched. but hey. the kill zone is somthing like 15 inches high by 18 inches long. and other than a 3D target most animals won't let ya see how tight a group you can get. Just kidding.!!. Practice Practice Practice..


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Riverrat77 said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > In a hunting situation weather or not you can "group" arrows will have little bearing on weather you will be successful or not. Confidence in your equipment and your ability to stay cool under pressure will go a lot farther than "grouping" ability. Just remember, aim small, miss small. :wink:
> ...


You're right! Target guys get to pick their own time and place to shoot so they're going to pick a time and place that's convenient and comfortable for the shooters, them. They even shoot indoors!

Bowhunters shoot on animal time and in animal places, which aren't always convenient and comfortable for the shooters. And you need to know what you and your equipment are capable of under those conditions. Keep it up! And this fall, show them the results of your labors, big game trophies, and maybe we'll get some new converts. Or not!

Are you up in the night? No, but hopefully you are up in the dawn and dusk!


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

[attachment=5:2c74jfa9]whitetail @ 22 yds.jpg[/attachment:2c74jfa9][attachment=4:2c74jfa9]22 yds 4 arrows white tail.jpg[/attachment:2c74jfa9][attachment=3:2c74jfa9]caribou 37 yds1.jpg[/attachment:2c74jfa9][attachment=2:2c74jfa9]caribou 37 yds2.jpg[/attachment:2c74jfa9][attachment=1:2c74jfa9]40 yd mule deer and my fmjs.jpg[/attachment:2c74jfa9][attachment=0:2c74jfa9]mule deer 40 yds.jpg[/attachment:2c74jfa9]

Today wasn't the best day but I figured out how to take pics with my cell and forward it to my email so I thought I'd try this. I was shakin all over the place (haven't eaten today) and it was hot enough to make me choose hell over standing on the archery range but figured I'd throw up some groups, get some opinions, your thoughts on what I need to do to be ready come the 16th of August, etc. I'll shoot every day this week and post more pics of the results on Friday. Fire away... public humiliation is fine if you think its warranted. :wink: Oh, and the glove on one hand isn't because I was shooting at "Neverland Ranch".... I just had an edge on my riser that was rubbing a spot on my right hand raw so I wear a batting glove to keep it from rubbing.  No, I didn't get it from Zim either.

If you guys have pictures of your groups at general yardages (20, 30, 40, 50 or whatever) throw them up if you want.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Not bad your geting better. keep at it.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks man... its been a lot of trial and error and frustration to figure out which stations are how many yards to each target. The league out there was a big help because it was marked distance so I was able to set my pins that way. I need to reset them though... i think they're just a hair off... most of the stuff I'm shooting is about an inch low. Throw my new broadheads into the mix and I have about a week of tinkering I need to do before the season. I also need to work on making my first shot count... I'm kinda in this whole "make a good group" mindset where, like everyone says, my groups aren't going to matter when I'm shooting at an animal that won't tolerate more than that first shot.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I practice this time of year every day. I know when i am ready when I shoot one arrow @ 60, 50, 40, 30, & 20. One round all softball size. One other thing I do is after the Treasure Mountain, I quit practicing with practice tips and do broadheads only. After that date I also wear gloves and hunting atire while practicing (sweatshirt, jacket etc.), just like I will be shooting when hunting. Good luck Riley.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> In a hunting situation weather or not you can "group" arrows will have little bearing on weather you will be successful or not. Confidence in your equipment and your ability to stay cool under pressure will go a lot farther than "grouping" ability. Just remember, aim small, miss small. :wink:


I'll also add this RR, you'll never get an opportunity to "group" a bunch of arrows on a live critter... Armed with this thought....

Shoot the course and only shoot ONE arrow at each target trying to keep them within 8 inches of the center ring. (about the size of a deers vital area) After you shoot the course, add up all the vital shots and compare it to all your non-vital and missed shots. Also, keep track of your affective distance by recording the distance of each vital shot. In the end, you should be trying to "first arrow vital" every target. That will give you the most accurate and realistic approach to being "hunt ready".

Dealing with wind, terrain, heat, cold, shifty critters, thick clothing, gloves, head net, on your knees, standing, sitting, respiration and pulse fluctuations, urges to swat flies, toilet needs, and buck fever... That's another thread all together! :wink:


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Bow hunting is a frustration sports. but it part of the game and it fun.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

riverrat 
I am looking at your groups. it looks like if you drew a horizontal line across your target all of your arrows would hit the line. This tells me you nock point is correct. Now if you drew a vertical down your target none of them would hit it. This tells me your bows rest needs to move one way or another. This should help out your groups.

To be honest I get upset if I can’t hit a circle the size of the bottom of a coke can at 60 yards with 6 arrows. I also expect to have arrow contact in the center of that same circle. It doesn’t always happen but that is what I expect on every end. If you want to earn money in any of the archery shoots around this is what the winners are doing on shots past 60 yards.
These same guys will never shoot at the same spot at 20-30 yards it gets to expensive. 

here was my practice session for today I skipped work and shot from 10 am in the morning until dark only taking a few breaks to re fletch a half a dozen arrows, eat lunch and dinner. I tried moving my rest around to see if I could get any better groups. I numbered my arrows and noticed some arrows would group on one side of the target consistently. So I rotated the nocks to the next fletch until they moved back in line with my other arrows. In the end I did find a sweet spot that made my arrows group very well.

I was shooting at 50-60 yards most of the day but also sighted in my 20-40 yard pins. Than I moved to 15 yards shooting every yard back to 2 yards. These shots will hurt you in a tournament just as bad as the long shots.

After all this practice I think I should go out and do it again because the guy that is going to win the next tournament is not going to make any mistakes or miss any spots. 

good luck good practice makes perfe :mrgreen: ct.


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

As Tex stated there are a lot of variables to deal with in the field. Once you’ve gained consistency through repeated practice, strength, muscle memory, coordination and finally confidence, start over by pulling out all of your yardage markers. Relocate your target and shoot from different angles/yardages, this is when yardage estimation and concentration really come in to play. If you can set up in a bunch of trees somewhere you’ll learn to estimate your arrows trajectory by shooting under limbs and through openings. It is my experience that distance estimation is probably the most important factor, if you’re hitting outside the 4” circle once in a while you’ll do just fine. Hope this helps….


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Oh, I'd never win any money anywhere in 3D shoots. Thats far, far from my goal. I just want to know that out to 60 yards, I can make a clean shot on an animal with a smaller vital area. So far, I'm sure of that shot probably 90 percent of the time. 50.... so far thats been about the furthest out I can get good "vital" groups. I don't know that I'd put money on me hitting a coke can bottom at 60 yards but I could sure scare the heck out of it. :wink: My pins only go to 60 and I won't shoot past that. Why?? I know I can get closer so I shouldn't need to. If I can't get closer... well, then I probably need to take up something else. Thats just my standard for me though. Anyway, thanks for the advice swbuckmaster. Do you think it matters that I'm shooting through a biscuit and I am guaranteed to have vane contact on every shot? I mean, no excuses but I don't know how "micro precise" I can get shooting with that rest you know? 

Tex, I tried your method last night shooting 6 arrows at 6 different targets out to 50 yards and I shot that type of round twice... so 12 arrows. All 12 were vital hits with 11 of them being 10 ring shots. We'll see if that was a lucky evening or if I can be consistent and do it again today on my lunch. Yesterday after work was god awful hot so I just shot those 12 and left. Went to go shoot at UAC but they had the range torn down. 

G let me handle the new broadhead.... pretty slick fellas. It sure looks good. Told me about the Africa trip... if its blowing through game there, then muleys and elk should be a cinch.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I still think there is something wrong with your set up. A whisker biscuit will shoot better than what you posted. Something is not tuned properly. Or you could have a stabilization problem. But something is defiantly not right. Once you attach a broad head to the front of those arrows you are shooting you are going to get way worse groups. I am not making fun, or judging you on your ethics. I am a perfectionist when it comes to my own equipment and if someone asks advice on there equipment I am brutally honest with my answers. I want all archers to better their game including myself.

I didn’t post my groups to say you suck or anything you just asked the question of what peoples groups look like. I didn’t have a picture so I painted a picture of what my groups would look like and what it takes to get groups like mine. I am also not the best out there but I am defiantly not the worst out there either.

In archery there are a lot of things mechanically with their bow or arrows that can affect how their arrows fly. The beginning archer or the uninformed or ignorant archer doesn’t know how all of these things will affect how their arrows are flying or grouping and it has nothing to do with how shaky you hold your bow. Most people will just say you need more practice that is simply not the case. A good technical coach can make a world of difference.

That’s why I said good practice makes perfect.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I will be at the Timp Archers course at the mouth of Provo canyon tonight from about 5:00 pm until dark if you want to show up. Ill go over your setup and your form if you want. The cost is 5 dollars and you will be shooting at targets out to 80 yards. You won’t find any better area to practice. The yards are all marked. You will be shooting 4 arrows at every target.


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## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

RR, I admire your enthusiasm for practicing. Listen to guys like swbuckmaster and it won't be too long before your opening cokes at 60 yards. 


By the way, I can see the pictures that RR posted but not the ones from swbuckmaster, am I the only one having this problem?


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Oh man.... I sure wish I could take you up on that. Are you ever at local shops up here in SLC? I'd love to have you take a look at my setup. I don't know that its ever really been "fine tuned". It was a pre-set up bow that I bought at UAC and I didn't know what half the stuff was good or bad so I just went with it. G told me it was a good setup for the money I had in hand and its been good to me so far but probably could use a little nitpicking to make it better. I appreciate you offering to get me shaped up but I have a ball game I've committed to tonight so I can't make it down there. I didn't think you were making fun of my groups... I think its awesome you shoot that well. Gives me something to work towards anyway. I suppose I should run over to UAC and paper tune so I can see which way I'm tearing. If I had a bad flight issue, would that show up in how my arrows contact the targets? Arrows hitting on an angle and things like that?? Most of them are pretty straight with the occasional arrow at an angle, perhaps from some sort of deflection off the rest?? For example, you say its a vertical issue with my groups, so they're "fish tailing" as opposed to porpoising right?? So I should see a right or left tear in paper tuning correct?

I think he just described his groups... and didn't post actual pictures of his groups.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Paper tuning is great for some guys and some guys don’t like it. I love it! Shooting an arrow through paper will show if you are tearing left, right, up or down. 

“I paper tune with bare shafts and fletch the shafts afterwards”

There are a few rules for paper tuning that you need to consider

Tune your own bow. Other people grip their bow differently than you do.

Start out about 2 yards away from your paper. Use only one arrow for rest adjustments. This will take out the headache chasing paper tears. Different arrows will tear differently through paper. Why? Dynamic spine! I tune every arrow by twisting each ones nock until I get every arrow shooting a bullet hole. Testing your arrows on a spine tester will do nothing to test your dynamic spine. Dynamic spine is what your arrow does under force or shooting conditions. I want all my arrows flexing the same way out of my bow on every shot.

Spine which is different than “dynamic spine” but it is just as is important. I try to get my arrows rest center adjustment to be as close to what the specs for my bow say. I can do this by first going to gold tips web page cause I shoot gold tip arrows and pick an arrow that is correct for my arrow length and spine. If I am shooting it through paper and I notice I am having to adjust my rest closer to my riser I will add or subtract weight from the tip of my arrow until I get the desired clearance. Adding or subtracting bow lbs will do the same thing. I do all of this so I can find the perfect arrow set up for my bow. It sucks! It takes along time! But it is worth it in the end.

I than will shoot at different yards through paper to make sure I am still getting a perfect bullet hole. Then I go out side and start shooting groups. If I have done everything stated above and haven’t taken any short cuts I should see great groups. But being the anal perfectionist that I am I sometimes play with my rest to see if I get better groups. In the end it usually ends up right back where I started.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

RR, swb is being modest, he is one of the very BEST in the state at putting arrows right where he wants to. I would find a way to have a 'session' with him, it will be well worth it. He's a funny fellar as well. You'll learn A LOT, and have fun in the process.


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## Nueces (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't shoot too many arrows at the same dot because I don't want to split them. Some people like getting Robinhoods, but that is too expensive for me! Plus, what a pain doing the repairs.

The reason I kept shooting a group with these arrows is to blow some of the myths or my own belief on the matching arrows. Althought these all have the same weight (grain) target tip, they are different (except for 2 as you can see). The 2 target tips that are the same are on different arrows and different lenghts! Two arrows are thin shafts while the other one is a normal shaft.

Shot with a laser and stepping off, this grouping is at 31 yards and a 1" group. I don't have pics of any other distances as I am always too chicken shooting groups.

[attachment=1:2bl5jpcx]Parker 1 in @ 30yd 3.JPG[/attachment:2bl5jpcx]

Here is an image of the back of the target showing the different arrows and target tips. It may just be me, but I can't see a huge difference in the impact points. Hunting, I never mix my arrows, but on the practice I can't tell the difference.

[attachment=0:2bl5jpcx]Parker 1 in @ 30yd 2.JPG[/attachment:2bl5jpcx]


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

“The reason I kept shooting a group with these arrows is to blow some of the myths or my own belief on the matching arrows.” 

This is why the most accurate shooters in archery and rifle competitions come to the match with miss matched crap. Yes it’s a myth that arrows with different lengths, different weights, and different diameters will not group.


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

I think what SW is getting at is that at 31 yards 10-20 grains of difference at 31 yds is nothing. step back to 60+ yards and you will see a significant difference. Then screw a broadhead on it and watch those babies sail. Arrow matching is very important for longer distances and hunting arrows. 

SW can get kind of snippy when he gets to bed late. :lol:. but trust me he knows what he is talking about.


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