# What would you do?



## Ecpk91 (Jun 13, 2018)

Spent the first week of the Bowhunt chasing animals and mainly trying to put my kids in a position to have an opportunity. I love the bowhunt, the majority of the hunters I ran into are extremely friendly and helpful. We had several stop and tell us of a location of a well know spring and suggest we try sitting there for some bucks. We found the spring on a Wednesday, when we went in there was not a single person around, we did see a ground blind but no one inside or anywhere in the vicinity. 

We sat by the wallow and had several bucks come in but could not get a good position for a shot. We decided to go back Thursday and same thing, not a soul in sight, the ground blind remained empty of its owner.... until the evening. We had been sitting there all day, built us a ground blind in anticipation of a great evening until the owner of the mountain... I mean ground blind showed up. 

When this jabronie saw us already on his mountain he proceeded to berate us by swearing and cussing at us for being in his spot, keep in mind he wasn't there for the past two days. This moron acted as though he had exclusive rights to hunt this spot like he owned this section of public lands. I wasn't there but had sent my son to hunt this place for the last two days. Thursday evening as my son was preparing to leave this richard cranium cussed at him again and stated he better have the area all to himself tomorrow. 

Had this richard simply been polite and stated he was hunting big bulls and just asked for cooperation we would have been polite back and let him have the area, part of me wanted to go back and just wait for this jackass so I could let him know he can't intimidate his way for hunting when we all have certain tags and if he thought he was tough with a younger hunter he could then act tough with an older one. I really wanted to confront this cranium but chose not to. What would you have done?

I understand that a big bull tag is tough to get and I am more than willing to help someone obtain a big bull, but when people seem to think they own public lands and proceed to act like an entitled prick that really makes me want to ruin their hunt by showing up at the same water hole and taking a dump inside their ground blind. I am glad I didn't retaliate but really wanted to. Whatever happened to politeness? Like I said I would have cooperated with him had he simply talked to us with respect. It's a good thing I wasn't present that night he showed up being a weenie.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

If you want a fight, go back and wait for it. 

If you want to hunt by yourself, go somewhere else.

And yes, he’s a tool and does not own the mountain. It’s just a matter of what experience you are looking for.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

We get groups or guys that hunt from their ATV or right next to it on the trails/roads. They get super pissed off when we drive by on our way to somewhere else because we drove through their spot.

If you're gonna hunt public land there are going to be other public people there. If you are going to hunt from a road you have to expect people to be using that road.

Sounds like you ran into a guy that felt like he had claim to that spot because his equipment was there. I can see it both ways but in the end, if he wasn't actively hunting it he had technically abandoned his equipment and the spot was up for grabs. I think legally you could have even sat in his blind and save yourself the time of building your own. It would be a DB thing to do but I believe it to be legal.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Just for meanness I would report him to the DWR for hunter harassment.

But then I would also find a new spot away from him


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

It's public land. If you were hunting the area first, he should defer. Same thing in reverse if he was there first and you showed up. Just because someone has a stand or blind in no way entitles them to "the spot" on public. If you could get his name, I would report him too. If nothing else, a call from the DWR or standard law enforcement might make him think twice about pulling his prick card out the next time he is late to the party.

By chance, did this happen Logan's Left Hand Fork area on the Cache? I know of a real DB up there that pulls the same shiz. It's honestly pathetic...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Hunter harassment is against the law. It’s a class B misdemeanor.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Vanilla said:


> Hunter harassment is against the law. It's a class B misdemeanor.


I thought you were joking. This is surprising and good to know!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

rtockstein said:


> I thought you were joking. This is surprising and good to know!


https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title23/Chapter20/23-20-S29.html?v=C23-20-S29_1800010118000101

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title23/Chapter20/23-20-S29.5.html?v=C23-20-S29.5_1800010118000101

No joking here.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> Hunter harassment is against the law. It's a class B misdemeanor.


IF you can find a dwr officer willing to pursue it. I had an incident last year. Guy called my personal number to rip on me for hunting "his" spot. Had phone records, the guys name and gave them gps location of where "his" spot was located where they could see his treestand that had grown into the tree from it being there so long. 2 different officers said they would push it and that won't be tolerated. Neither officer ended up doing anything about it. So next time when he wants to get ****ty about who's spot it is, I suppose when the situation escalates, I at least have report records that I tried to get them to properly resolve the issue. I tired.

The entitlement of public land these days by guys is unreal. Go prove a point and sit there if you want a fight. I'm sure you'll get one. Or go somewhere else. If you do go sit there, be sure to get a recording of it. You'll probably need it if you want the law involved at some point


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Limited resources definitely make investigating this one difficult. Especially when most of it is reported after the fact and it’s not recorded. Is the effort and manpower to figure out what really happened and who did what worth the time with no tangible evidence? For officers already spread super thin, probably not. 

I don’t think calling someone on the phone, no matter what is said, meets the elements of the offense I linked. It may fit a different crime, but then your DWR conservation officers won’t be investigating those ones.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

pour coyote urine all over the place then go somewhere else just kiddin maybe;-)


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## mcc9 (May 20, 2008)

Unfortunately these types of things happen way to often. I have had 2 similar situations in the last 2 years. Two years ago on the ML deer hunt my son and I were sitting on a pond all day. In the evening this guy comes up and sits right across the pond from us 70 yards away. I went over and talked to him and told him that I felt like where he was sitting created a crossfire situation and wasn't safe. I told him that I didn't care that he hunted this area but asked that he move to create a safer situation. He went on to tell me that I didn't own the pond and he could sit anywhere he wanted. He told me that I should teach my son not to shoot towards people. He went back and sat is his spot. Obvious I was furious. I went back and told by son what he said. We didn't feel safe so we ended up leaving. We all hunt public land together and should respect one another. If someone puts forth the effort to get to the spot you wanted to hunt before you, move on and respect the other hunter. Sure it sucks to hike in to a spot you plan to hunt just to find someone else there, it happens to all of us. In hunter safety they teach the kids to respect other hunters and to be good sportsman. Maybe these people should retake that class....


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

On the one instance that I reported a person for hunter harassment the DWR wanted a written report of what happened along with the GPS or location on a map, this was before GPS's were very common. 

They did go and talk to the person that I reported for all the good that it did. I just decided that I didn't need the hassle of hunting that area anymore so I just moved on.


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

Sad to hear, I have personally had the same thing happen to me. I had some guy leave his tree stand up and I never saw him for days. He came in and started literally getting in my face. I am usually a patient guy. But when someone starts to push you and threaten you. I lost my cool. Push back and told the guy to bring it. He ran and scurried up to his tree stand and was cussing me from there. I then proceeded to a unload last nights dinner right next to his tree stand ainkiller:. And relived that mornings Mountain dew on the other side of the water hole. Satisfying in so many ways. 

So If i was you, consider his ground blind your new latrine.


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## Ecpk91 (Jun 13, 2018)

I appreciate the advice and replies, the old me would have stuck around and more than likely left a saddened depressed other hunter doubled over in his ground blind bleeding and sore. I'm not like that anymore and set the example for my two sons on how we hunt. The second day my oldest boy sat at the pond all day and this jabronie never showed up. I pulled in around 4:00 and he still wasn't there. I met up with my boy and told him to keep hunting where he was and if he heard another wheeler pull up to hurry and gather his belongings and move over to where me and my younger son set up on a trail leading to the pond. It was the right thing to do and a teaching moment for my boys to be respectful hunters. The range is big and plenty of area to hunt as difficult as it was it taught them ethical hunting even when we are not in the wrong. I am a pretty big guy and would have no problem handling myself. But that is not what I want to teach my boys about hunting. We ran into several other hunters during scouting and cooperated and even helped each other, this is hunting to me. making new friends and helping others find success and enjoy the hunt. What goes around comes around and this guy will confront someone who isn't as self restraining as I am now.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Sorry folks have had these experiences. I haven't yet but my boots haven't hunted as many miles as folks here. I've had several encounters but they've always been positive and generous in attitude/ettiquette.

I totally support what Vanilla said. Its ultimately about the experience you want. It sucks when people do these things but we only get to decide our own actions. Moving on can be a powerful example especially to your kids if they are there. 

Hope the rest of the season in conflict free for people!


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## toyotaguy (Feb 8, 2017)

I'm the type where i'd just go somewhere else. Not worth the hassle for me


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## jason21 (Sep 18, 2018)

Such a tool move on his part, i really dont get why people are such a holes about this stuff. someone cant truly believe the best way to handle this situation is by hostility. Numerous time in the past ive ran across others in the areas i hunt in colorado, and now we all share spots, BS at eachothers camps mid-day. and became friends. Theyve taken elk and deer out of spots we have shared with them, and my family has done the same with spots they have shared with us.

Respect goes a long long way in the woods in my opinion.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I've never really had a bad experience out big game hunting like this. I don't sit water or in tree stands or blinds, though. And when I'm out hiking around, if I see other people, I do all I can to avoid them. 

That said, I've had some real winners try to pull crap in the duck marsh. I've got two stories that will always live with me from the duck marsh.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I've said before and I'll say it again, There are no secret water sources in Utah. If you are going to sit water you will eventually have some conflict with someone else who wants to do the same. How you handle it is entirely up to you.

There are other ways to let the water help you hunt without sitting in each others lap.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> Limited resources definitely make investigating this one difficult. Especially when most of it is reported after the fact and it's not recorded. Is the effort and manpower to figure out what really happened and who did what worth the time with no tangible evidence? For officers already spread super thin, probably not.
> 
> I don't think calling someone on the phone, no matter what is said, meets the elements of the offense I linked. It may fit a different crime, but then your DWR conservation officers won't be investigating those ones.


Agreed, but when they say "I better never show up and find you sitting in my stand, or else...." that does cross a couple of lines. I'll sit his stand all I want. I was courteous and went out of my way in the past to avoid being anywhere near that area when I knew they would be there. That won't be the case moving forward. Obviously I have more time to hunt than they do, so when it's convenient for me, I'll be in their stand before them. I got all kinds of time to hunt other areas. They are lucky I have a big bull tag this year or they would have had all kinds of company to deal with on the archery hunt this year


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

"Braver" than I. No way I'm showing up when someone threatens me in a sport that requires firearms. I'd definitely report that to not only DWR but also local authorities. That's not a benign claim on their part. At a minimum there should be a record in case they do that to someone else. Might help build a case against them.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

MooseMeat said:


> Agreed, but when they say "I better never show up and find you sitting in my stand, or else...." that does cross a couple of lines. I'll sit his stand all I want. I was courteous and went out of my way in the past to avoid being anywhere near that area when I knew they would be there. That won't be the case moving forward. Obviously I have more time to hunt than they do, so when it's convenient for me, I'll be in their stand before them. I got all kinds of time to hunt other areas. They are lucky I have a big bull tag this year or they would have had all kinds of company to deal with on the archery hunt this year


Hunt his stand or hunt the area?

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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Ecpk91 said:


> Spent the first week of the Bowhunt chasing animals and mainly trying to put my kids in a position to have an opportunity. I love the bowhunt, the majority of the hunters I ran into are extremely friendly and helpful. We had several stop and tell us of a location of a well know spring and suggest we try sitting there for some bucks. We found the spring on a Wednesday, when we went in there was not a single person around, we did see a ground blind but no one inside or anywhere in the vicinity.
> 
> We sat by the wallow and had several bucks come in but could not get a good position for a shot. We decided to go back Thursday and same thing, not a soul in sight, the ground blind remained empty of its owner.... until the evening. We had been sitting there all day, built us a ground blind in anticipation of a great evening until the owner of the mountain... I mean ground blind showed up.
> 
> ...


One thing that always amazes me about my wife is how much she goes out of her way to do what's best for her children.

That being said, I would do whatever would be the best example to set for your kid.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

This happens every year and its getting worse with more hunters in the field. I blame a small amount on the DWR with the Multi Season Elk tags they're selling. You have a larger number of hunters taking up Archery now. 


I see the "Richard Cranium" side that he had a spot to set up on and he comes back to hunt and someone is there. I'd be pissed if it were me. If I ran into a place as you've described and saw that another hunter had set up a ground blind, I'd have moved on to find another area. 


I look at it this way...…. When you pull into the grocery store to park your car, do you park where someone else is parked, or do you park in a "vacant" stall?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

taxidermist said:


> This happens every year and its getting worse with more hunters in the field. I blame a small amount on the DWR with the Multi Season Elk tags they're selling. You have a larger number of hunters taking up Archery now.
> 
> I see the "Richard Cranium" side that he had a spot to set up on and he comes back to hunt and someone is there. I'd be pissed if it were me. If I ran into a place as you've described and saw that another hunter had set up a ground blind, I'd have moved on to find another area.
> 
> I look at it this way...&#8230;. When you pull into the grocery store to park your car, do park where someone else is parked, or do you park in a "vacant" stall?


Just like the grocery store, none of the stalls are "yours" because it's public land.

Hard to say what I would do. I don't have the desire to get into pissing contests so going back wouldn't be a big desire.. If the animals are in that spot though it's tough to say. One thing I DON'T do is hunt others blinds/stands/equipment. Some on here do and I don't see an issue. I just prefer to put a blind/stand next to it instead :mrgreen:

I'm also a hot head though so the first encounter would have been bad given the threats he gave. Once I think about things I am good to go and would likely avoid him. Where you sit right now, you played the first round good and have no reason to have a second round.

Reporting isn't a bad idea, especially given the perceived threat.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Taking a dump in his blind is a hilarious idea but getting into a conflict with someone hunting the same area as you is a good way to find out that sure, your area is big...until you consider that you want to hunt the area closest to you or with the shortest approach...and then you realize you have about two ways to get there on existing roads. People get unreasonably mad about "their" spots and it's just not worth escalating.


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## DevilDog09 (Oct 4, 2016)

PM me, I would gladly go sit in “his spot” and welcome him to public land hunting. I don’t care if you have 20 points and are hunting a 380 bull, it’s all our land. You wanna get to your spot, maybe you better be there 3 hours before light to claim it. I would have told him to kick rocks in flips flops


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Trouble is a lot of you guys say you would just go somewhere else, well why do you think these guys act like they do? They act like jerks to get you to move on and have always gotten away with intimidation. I get some of this from time to time but I'm a big dude and it takes a special kind of jerk to try and intimidate me. If the guy in the OP had cussed my son I would have been there the next day to see if he wanted to cuss me out and to explain the facts of life to the jerk. The more we let jerks get away with this crap the more they are going to do it and others will see it as a way to get what they want, show them that intimidation doesn't work and they might stop.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I’d start hunting squirrels around the water hole, come sept 1st, I’d start hunt grouse. Completely blow that thing out and bag some squirrels and grouse in the process


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Or, I’d just be in there every morning before him. What’s he going to do about it?


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I also agree with muddydog, I would have gone in there and sat it


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

The guy sounds like a wannebe terrorist.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Trouble is a lot of you guys say you would just go somewhere else, well why do you think these guys act like they do?


Call me "Old School" but I honestly believe in hunter etiquette! Put the show on your foot. If you've spent time in scouting an area for a LE Elk tag and had a "wall hanger" coming to water that you have set up on, and some dweeb comes walking into your area that didn't even know it existed, I bet you'd be pissed.


Not saying either hunter is correct in their position on who hunts the spot. It comes down to being polite towards another hunter and helping each other be successful. Unfortunately, field etiquette is a thing of the past that I've come to realize.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Taxidermist, you are seeing it wrong. Who's to say the other party didn't "put in their time" and scout too? Just because you have a stand or blind in a spot doesn't entitle you to it exclusively. If so, why not just try and take legal ownership of the place?? Hunters need to have plan Bs and plan Cs when hunting public. If you are not in "your" spot before the other guy, then do the right thing and move on. If a person wants exclusive rights to a patch of land, go buy some, otherwise learn how to respect others rights that are no less relevant than yours.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

muddydogs said:


> Trouble is a lot of you guys say you would just go somewhere else, well why do you think these guys act like they do? They act like jerks to get you to move on and have always gotten away with intimidation. I get some of this from time to time but I'm a big dude and it takes a special kind of jerk to try and intimidate me. If the guy in the OP had cussed my son I would have been there the next day to see if he wanted to cuss me out and to explain the facts of life to the jerk. The more we let jerks get away with this crap the more they are going to do it and others will see it as a way to get what they want, show them that intimidation doesn't work and they might stop.


It goes back to my post asking what you want out of this? If you want a fight, go back every day and wait for one. If you're trying to hunt, and be away from people like many of us are trying to do, going back to a place a person told you come hell or high water he'd be there and be willing to ruin it for everyone, then why go back? That won't give you the experience you're looking for.

Yes, he's a jerk. He appears very content on nobody being successful at "his" spot unless it's on his terms. So again, it's just about what YOU want. It's not about giving him what he wants. It's about making a conscious decision about what YOU want that day, and going for it.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

muddydogs said:


> Trouble is a lot of you guys say you would just go somewhere else, well why do you think these guys act like they do? They act like jerks to get you to move on and have always gotten away with intimidation. I get some of this from time to time but I'm a big dude and it takes a special kind of jerk to try and intimidate me. If the guy in the OP had cussed my son I would have been there the next day to see if he wanted to cuss me out and to explain the facts of life to the jerk. The more we let jerks get away with this crap the more they are going to do it and others will see it as a way to get what they want, show them that intimidation doesn't work and they might stop.


Nailed it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

taxidermist said:


> Trouble is a lot of you guys say you would just go somewhere else, well why do you think these guys act like they do?
> 
> 
> Call me "Old School" but I honestly believe in hunter etiquette! Put the show on your foot. If you've spent time in scouting an area for a LE Elk tag and had a "wall hanger" coming to water that you have set up on, and some dweeb comes walking into your area that didn't even know it existed, I bet you'd be pissed.
> ...


Field etiquette goes to who got there first to me. I don't care how long someone spent scouting an area. You have no clue what work the "dweeb" coming thru put in or if they have never been there. Putting a ground blind or stand up doesn't lay claim to anything. If they are there in their blind or stand when I get somewhere I go somewhere else.

Never though am I going to sit someone's stand, blind or mess with their property though. Just because it's on public land doesn't mean it's yours also and you have a right to it. I bet the same people who would do this kind of thing have locks on their trail cams or would get pissed when people mess with it or steal it. Also they wouldn't apply the same logic to say...their vehicle in a public parking lot.

ITS PUBLIC LAND.

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## Ecpk91 (Jun 13, 2018)

*Here is what I did*

We did go back, the same guy showed up later in the evening after my boy had been there all day. We moved when we heard him pull up to a side trail hoping to ambush bucks coming in. When we left I waited by the fourwheelers to ensure my boys made it out safe without any harassment. The guy didn't show up which I find typical of a bully, once someone larger shows up the attitude changes. I don't have a problem helping other hunters, all you have to do is show some mutual respect and help one another. I have many tree stands around and would have been happy to assist a big bull hunter. I believe I did the right thing setting an example for my boys, just because someone else acts like an a&^ doesn't mean we do. I saw my boys when this guy showed up the second day, they were watching me to see how I would react, the lesson i taught them is tolerance. Yea it was wrong how this guy treated them, however turning the other cheek was needed. This taught my boys restraint, tolerance and forgiveness. Carma has a way of coming around. But like some of the posts on here what lesson did I want to teach my boys.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

To clarify different components....if we are talking about what rtockstein said in the other thread than no it's nothing like a parked car at a trailhead. But they had caveats like left "year round" and using permanent attachment points. I'd use those tree stands in a heartbeat. I'd also report them knowing full well it's likely to be there the next time I return.

If we are talking about commercial tree stands that have temporary attachment points, like cam straps, and any evidence of use recently than I steer clear. I don't want conflict while hunting and it's likely complies with agency regulation and the spirit of policy.

If we are talking about ground blinds made from natural found materials I would consider using it but I haven't been one to sit for long. Might need to unlearn that. But in this case we aren't talking about tangible property.

But when push comes to shove I tend to avoid behavior that creates conflict when I'm the field. It's just not worth my time. The older I get the fewer days afield I get and the more I'm likely to stroll away from areas with other people when I see them, hunting and fishing.

*Don't own trail cameras and only used them professionally. I also know that tangible property on public land is a complicated issue without explicit definitions and code from the managing agency and district. I'm not going to do anything to said property that could devalue it or change its location without knowing intent.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I haven't had too many issues with other hunters, and I want to spend my time hunting and not confronting.

A couple of years ago I had a spike tag and was on an LE unit, I was slowly making my way to some wallows from the south and uphill of them when movement caught my eye and I saw another archer about 150 yards away moving to the wallows from the west and below me. I thought that he might have an LE tag so I slowly made my way back up to the top of the hill I was on and sat and watched him moving towards the wallows. He must have finally got that "someone is watching me feeling" because he started to look around and finally looked up, I was about 200 yards from him and I just waved and pointed towards the wallows and stood up and turned and walked away.

I was about a quarter mile away from where I killed my LE archery bull a couple of years earlier and I didn't want to mess up his chance of getting a nice bull. For all I knew he may of only had a spike tag too, but wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I would be happier to have him get a bull than I would to get in a fight with him.

Now, that being said, it would be a whole different story if someone was harassing my kid.

TOP another angel got his wings.


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## caddis8 (Sep 10, 2007)

This one is sticky. I live in a state with a TON less public land than Utah, so it is a premium and a lot of effort goes into finding spots to hunt off the beaten path. I have tree stands hidden in the woods that aren't up- I should probably go check on them. However, I always told people (my friends) where they were and if they wanted to hunt if I wasn't going to have at it.

Here's where it gets sticky. You were deer hunting with your boys. That's imporant. Is an LE tag more important than a lowly deer tag? Why does he get the right to decide what's more important? Why does he get to push people out because he had a ground blind set up? Why is it ok to defer to the biggest DB and let said DB get what they want? 

Not the way I roll personally. I would have loved to have a conversation. "Hey I've got a huge bull on camera and it's been pretty regularly coming in, would you mind letting me hunt it a couple of days and get a shot at it?" That would be much better than yelling at kids who have every right to be on that place (and in my mind, more right since they're kids). 

The fight isn't worth it, and getting hurt is less worth it. Getting in a fight only makes things worse and is a bad example for your kids. Who knows if that guy was packing? Or you both are packing and then you get into a barrel measuring contest? A deer- or elk- isn't worth dying or getting hurt over. But the guy was in the wrong. 

Or, call a cop friend and have him come hunting with your boys, but hide a ways away.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

If a person wants exclusive rights to a patch of land, go buy some,


I can tell you from experience that owning a track of land is more work and trouble keeping trespassers out than one would think! It's just plain and simple that there are some that strait up don't give a hoot about crossing the line, fence, whatever you want to call it to hunt your land.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

taxidermist said:


> If a person wants exclusive rights to a patch of land, go buy some,
> 
> 
> I can tell you from experience that owning a track of land is more work and trouble keeping trespassers out than one would think! It's just plain and simple that there are some that strait up don't give a hoot about crossing the line, fence, whatever you want to call it to hunt your land.


At least if you do own the land it is a lot easier to kick someone off since you have law enforcement on your side


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

taxidermist said:


> If a person wants exclusive rights to a patch of land, go buy some,
> 
> 
> I can tell you from experience that owning a track of land is more work and trouble keeping trespassers out than one would think! It's just plain and simple that there are some that strait up don't give a hoot about crossing the line, fence, whatever you want to call it to hunt your land.


I understand your point, but with said ownership, you have a legal right to boot those that are on your property unlawfully.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

taxidermist said:


> If a person wants exclusive rights to a patch of land, go buy some,
> 
> 
> I can tell you from experience that owning a track of land is more work and trouble keeping trespassers out than one would think! It's just plain and simple that there are some that strait up don't give a hoot about crossing the line, fence, whatever you want to call it to hunt your land.


That is true, when managing my wife's family property I have had more hunting situations ruined on the private ground than I have hunting public.


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## maffleck (Jul 23, 2015)

Ah public hunting. The DWR won't do anything unless its a poaching incident. Poaching is their sacred cow. During a LE archery hunt I had a crazy group come in on me with firearms and threaten me and to "blow the area up" if I didn't leave. There were no cameras, stands, or anything. They just wanted a spot I was in. I knew where the group was staying from days of hunting so I reported them. The DWR agent in charge told me nothing would come of it but would reprimand them in case they did something more serious in the future. He even said unless its poaching, they don't really do much. Having said that, people are crazy about hunting and getting out safe is the most important thing.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I would of called the sheriff and told them that I had been threatened with a firearm and I had to flee for my own safety. 

I bet that you would of gotten some action that way.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> I would of called the sheriff and told them that I had been threatened with a firearm and I had to flee for my own safety.
> 
> I bet that you would of gotten some action that way.


In my area response time would be in the 1 hour range at best. I am not interested in wearing a body cam every time I encounter a person trespassing. It happens multiple times a year. It takes about about 30 minutes just to get phone service.

And if you are not there they just come back and vandalize everything as payback.

Most play nice but there are definitely DB's out there who think any rules don't apply to them.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Some land shouldn't be own-able. Nothing is more like a smack in the face with a wet fish then being deep in the forest, and see a "No Tress" sign. In the middle of the F'ing woods! Now that, is some Grade A BS. Just my personal opinion, but where the boundary of a national forest or BLM lands starts, should be uninterrupted until you reach the other side it.

Personally, I'll respect the private property boundaries- I grew up obeying rules, laws, and regulations. It's ingrained, but I don't agree with private land *inside *of public. I HATE IT. And the property owners usually act like all the wildlife in the area is their personal property and go through lengths to ensure it. I've even been shot at on public lands because I dared to hunt a freaking turkey too close to private. Nothing quite gets your attention like a *SNAP* and *WIZZ* going by you because some asshat on private lands thinks he owns everything, and decides to take some pot shots from atop a ridge with a mag dump in your general direction to run you off.

I'm a conservative on a majority of issues, but private inside of public lands is where I have a libtard streak a mile wide with an equally large bitter streak.

Think I'll go have another beer now that I've got that off my chest. How's that for a view from the other side of the property line!


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

The west is full of conflict. Kinda started with the every other section for the continental railroad. Well maybe with the Louisiana purchase.

Just because it irritates you does not mean there is a simple solution. I certainly don't agree with the transfer of public lands but in reality there has already been a ton transferred. It is already tied up. It is apparent on any detailed map, paper or digital where the boundaries are.

If some "asshat" does a"mag dump" on private or public that my friend is grounds for assault charges. I hope you can verify them.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I have a little place that I bought years ago. 
I have been "kicked off" of it several times over the years by hunters...... :shock:

It never dId end well for them. :mrgreen:

One guy told me he had 600 acres on Kannarra mountain. I asked if I could hunt it. He said NO !!!
So out he went. That's just how some people think. 
Never saw him again.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> If a person wants exclusive rights to a patch of land, go buy some,
> 
> 
> I can tell you from experience that owning a track of land is more work and trouble keeping trespassers out than one would think! It's just plain and simple that there are some that strait up don't give a hoot about crossing the line, fence, whatever you want to call it to hunt your land.


Properly post your land and I bet you won't have as many issues with trespassing. If land isn't properly posted in Utah, people can access the property until contacted by the land owner or representative.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Sorry MM, but even "properly posted" some of them think that it doesn't mean them. 
My place, and the ones around me are posted as per the "rules"
They drop fences and go around gates, etc.......


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

middlefork said:


> If some "asshat" does a"mag dump" on private or public that my friend is grounds for assault charges. I hope you can verify them.


Sheriff already knew the area. On the phone, "let me guess, this is at...."
He guessed correctly. They went out to check it out, I don't know what became of it, but the area has a history.



MooseMeat said:


> Properly post your land and I bet you won't have as many issues with trespassing. *If land isn't properly posted in Utah, people can access the property until contacted by the land owner or representative*.


 I read the regs on this once, if memory serves correctly, the land has to be posted in such a manner where a person can reasonably know they are going on private property. They have to mark it, somehow, in some way.
Even blaze orange spray paint on trees or rocks on the property line will suffice.

If they didn't even do that, if the line between private and public is invisible with no markings, no signs, no fences, NOTHING at all, then I'll keep right on going if I think the Elk went that way. How am I supposed to know? Nothing in the law says one must have a GPS app that tells them where the boundaries are.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

One of my jobs on the farm was to post the property. One area was along a road 3 miles long. I would ride my horse and staple the signs..."NO TRESSPASING OR HUNTING without written permission". on 3/4" boards we had nailed to fence posts every 100 feet. We had the contact # on the signs as well. If Dad knew you, or you came to the house and talked to him, He'd usually let you on to hunt Pheasant. 


We would also have "hands" paired up on horse back patrolling the area to keep the trespassers out. I was probably 11 years old and was riding with one of the hands when we hear some shots. These two guys had shot a couple roosters and were about 80 yards inside the property. Joe, (name of the hand) acting as a representative of the property asked them to leave and get their dogs off the property as well. 


I remember a cussing fight broke out and they began to walk towards the fence to leave. We ride off a 1/4 mile to push the next few hunters out of the field. During that time, the first two guys are now deeper into the field and shots fired. We ride back and ask them to leave AGAIN. Long story short...… They refused and when I slapped leather and was on a run for the house to have Mom call the sheriff I hear more shooting. All in all, those guys took a shot at Joe while he was riding to catch up to me and peppered him good. Bad mistake!!! Joe was caring a saddle rifle in his scabbard. They left the field in handcuffs with charges being pressed by my Dad and their prized shorthair never left the field with them. 


So ya, some people don't give a **** about signs.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

2full said:


> Sorry MM, but even "properly posted" some of them think that it doesn't mean them.
> My place, and the ones around me are posted as per the "rules"
> They drop fences and go around gates, etc.......


Read it again. I didn't say it would stop completely. I said it would probably keep out more guys.

If it's not posted, don't get mad at people for hunting it.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

So 4' x 8' signs posted on the sides of the road on property lines that say No trespassing Either side of the road next XX miles is not adequate? Do you need a bare earth bulldozed line with marking every 100' to feel comfortable?

The problem is some people just don't respect private property.

Colorado requires the hunter to know the boundaries of private property posted or not. I'm sure that could be easily changed in Utah.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> Properly post your land and I bet you won't have as many issues with trespassing. If land isn't properly posted in Utah, people can access the property until contacted by the land owner or representative.


https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title23/Chapter20/23-20-S14.html?v=C23-20-S14_1800010118000101

"Properly posted" is not the only way to keep people off. Not as much as a consideration out in the hills on big game hunts, but still figured I'd post the actual law. There is no substitute to reading the law itself.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

2full said:


> I have a little place that I bought years ago.
> I have been "kicked off" of it several times over the years by hunters...... :shock:
> 
> It never dId end well for them. :mrgreen:


That happened to us one year down on Yellowjacket (coral pink sand dunes). We opened our gate, pulled in to our land, and started closing the gate when a young kid came flying up in his Dodge diesel and screeches to a halt. He jumps out and yells at me (as I'm closing the fence) "This is private property! You don't have permission to be hear!".

I just looked over at my father-in-law - the property is listed in his name. He's a big feller, with a short temper and a hard head. I saw the fire in his eyes, and just stepped back out of the way. He starts heading towards the kid and says "who the hell are you?"

After learning a few new words, the kid realized he had really screwed up, and got back in his truck with his wet pants and drove off.

That's a fun memory.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title23/Chapter20/23-20-S14.html?v=C23-20-S14_1800010118000101
> 
> "Properly posted" is not the only way to keep people off. Not as much as a consideration out in the hills on big game hunts, but still figured I'd post the actual law. There is no substitute to reading the law itself.


That link is in reference to wildlife law, which we are discussing, however it doesn't just pertain to wildlife law.

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter6/76-6-S206.3.html

TOP another angel got his wings.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

-O\\__-

Looks like it doesn't even have to be posted, just fenced.



> (2)
> (a)	While taking wildlife or engaging in wildlife related activities, a person may not:
> (i)	without permission, enter upon privately owned land that is cultivated or properly posted;
> (ii)	enter or remain on privately owned land if the person has notice to not enter or remain on the privately owned land; or
> ...





> (2)	A person is guilty of the class B misdemeanor criminal offense of criminal trespass on agricultural or range land and is liable for the civil damages under Subsection (5) if, under circumstances not amounting to a greater offense, and without authorization or a right under state law, the person enters or remains on agricultural or range land regarding which notice prohibiting entry is given by:
> (a)	personal communication to the person by the owner of the land, an employee of the owner, or a person with apparent authority to act for the owner;
> (b)	fencing or other form of enclosure a reasonable person would recognize as intended to exclude intruders; *or*
> (c)	posted signs or markers that would reasonably be expected to be seen by persons in the area of the borders of the land.


I'm not a lawyer but that is the way I read it.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Whoops, sorry Ecpk91, kind of hijacked your thread from hunting ethics to private land debate.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

bowgy said:


> That link is in reference to wildlife law, which we are discussing, however it doesn't just pertain to wildlife law.
> 
> https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter6/76-6-S206.3.html
> 
> TOP another angel got his wings.


You are correct, there are multiple areas this could be prosecuted, but they elements of the offense and the conditions that make it trespassing are identical between the two sections.

It's contained in both areas because if you do it while hunting, you could subject yourself to additional civil penalties, like license revocation, etc.

My beef with the trespass law as written, and I provided this feedback at the time the law changed to this current edition, is that there are fences and livestock all over public lands. So simply coming across a barbed wire fence with some cows would not give notice sufficient that a "reasonable person would recognize as intended to exclude intruders."


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> You are correct, there are multiple areas this could be prosecuted, but they elements of the offense and the conditions that make it trespassing are identical between the two sections.
> 
> It's contained in both areas because if you do it while hunting, you could subject yourself to additional civil penalties, like license revocation, etc.
> 
> My beef with the trespass law as written, and I provided this feedback at the time the law changed to this current edition, is that there are fences and livestock all over public lands. So simply coming across a barbed wire fence with some cows would not give notice sufficient that a "reasonable person would recognize as intended to exclude intruders."


You would think that, but I had a friend who went turkey hunting on public land. He ended up shooting a triple-beard turkey inside of a fence on public land. This fence extended from private onto public, seeming like the property owners were taking more than what was theirs. They saw the picture and recognized where it was, and had him charged with trespassing. Even though where the exact place the bird was shot and recovered was on public, it was behind the fence that extended from private and he had to give up the bird and pay a fine.

Or so how he says..............


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

RemingtonCountry said:


> Or so how he says..............


no judge would convict someone from legally taking a bird on public land. Your friend is leaving out some details...

That's not to say that the private land owner isn't doing something wrong by fencing public land (unless he also has the grazing lease to the adjoining public parcel). If that is the case, then the private land owner must include an unlocked access gate to the public portion.

Again, your friend is leaving out details....


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Another interesting or notable thing about fences, maybe a couple of things, is that fences were put in place by convenience, (easiest path), and not always on the property lines. Another thing is that the surveys done now are much more accurate than the surveys in the past before GPS.


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## hunting777 (May 3, 2009)

"" the land is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner that a reasonable person would recognize as intended to exclude intruders.""

Speaking of fences. I showed this thread to some coworkers and were are discussing this exact topic. The point was brought up. What if the fence is run down? I found a picture online to represent. Is this fence considered a private property line? What is your opinion?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Hard to tell from the picture. Again you would need to know where you are. Plenty of reasons for fences not being maintained. Changing use of the land being most common.

It has been my experience that private fences bordering public are signed reasonable well to inform people which side is private. I have never seen a fence that designates a grazing allotment signed as private. That would be against the law also.

I think most have more problem when the boundary is not indicated by fencing. And this is generally caused by open range law.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

hunting777 said:


> The point was brought up. What if the fence is run down? I found a picture online to represent. Is this fence considered a private property line? What is your opinion?


The property in that picture looks "cultivated" to me, and thus the condition of the fence may not matter.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RemingtonCountry said:


> You would think that, but I had a friend who went turkey hunting on public land. He ended up shooting a triple-beard turkey inside of a fence on public land. This fence extended from private onto public, seeming like the property owners were taking more than what was theirs. They saw the picture and recognized where it was, and had him charged with trespassing. Even though where the exact place the bird was shot and recovered was on public, it was behind the fence that extended from private and he had to give up the bird and pay a fine.
> 
> Or so how he says..............


See below



PBH said:


> Your friend is leaving out some details...


I'm with PBH on this one. There are details missing from your friend's version of the facts.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> See below
> 
> I'm with PBH on this one. There are details missing from your friend's version of the facts.


That's why I left the ......... ;-) It's never the exact story!

He did go to court and fought and fought it, but ended up paying way more in attorney fees and such than the original fine was.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

RemingtonCountry said:


> He did go to court and fought and fought it, but ended up paying way more in attorney fees and such than the original fine was.


so, in other words: he was trespassing.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Earlier this month I talked to a DWR officer while hunting pronghorn. I asked about the private land, unmarked situation. He said “as long as it’s not posted, cultivated, artificially irrigated, or there are homes/dwellings within 600 feet, you can access the property for hunting. If you are contacted by the landowner or manager of the property and asked to leave, you must do so immediately.” That’s exactly how I interpreted the laws printed in the regulations.

I asked the lady at the springville office about the fence deal last year. I explained to her that “fenced in a manner to exclude intruders” is left up to interpretation, and I don’t think a 3 strand barbed wire fence counts, since the entire western states are covered in them, in public and private ground. She agreed and said the fence must be marked accordingly to the definition printed in the regulations. As do al publicl right of ways as well.

If you buddy got nailed for trespassing on public land, he’s leaving out a very important part of the story, conveniently. I don’t know think there’s too many officers out there that would write a ticket for someone who was on public land OR trespassing across a property line that isn’t marked.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I personally do not feel that trespassing is right. If I know that the property is private and I don't have permission to go onto the property I will not enter it whether it is posted or not or whether it is fenced or not.

I always felt that the term


> " the land is fenced *OR* otherwise enclosed in a manner that a reasonable person would recognize as intended to exclude intruders.


 is pretty weak, it is up to interpretation, I guess some expect if it is not a 10 tall cement fence with Concertina wire or a border wall then it is okay to cross.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

bowgy said:


> I personally do not feel that trespassing is right. If I know that the property is private and I don't have permission to go onto the property I will not enter it whether it is posted or not or whether it is fenced or not.
> 
> I always felt that the term is pretty weak, it is up to interpretation, I guess some expect if it is not a 10 tall cement fence with Concertina wire or a border wall then it is okay to cross.


A 3 strand wire fence doesn't meet that definition in my opinion. All of us have hopped over a fence while hunting and not thought twice about it. A fence to exclude intruders should be something that takes longer than 14 seconds to get over.

I think most of us that use public lands regularly, would be shocked to learn how much private we cross through, camp on, or hunt on, and never even know it. Many places in Utah are mixed in public and unmarked. Knowingly or not, I think many of us have "trespassed".


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

With a 3 strand barb wire fence all the property owner needs to do is to walk/ride around the property and paint every 3 or 4 fence post florescent orange and he would be fine. All a No Trespassing sign does is give a person something to tear off of the post and stash it into the bushes and say that he didn't see a sign.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I would argue that a 3 strand barbed wire fence on its own definitely does not meet the statutory definition. One with "no trespassing" signs on it surely would, however. 

I agree with respecting private property, Bowgy. But there are responsibilities under the law that go along with it. (The responsibilities are more relaxed and liberal now than they were 15 years ago too.) I don't fault you or think you are wrong for taking your stance, that is fine. But so long as people are following the law, they also can't be looked down upon in this arena.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

The yearly trespassing discussion. Must be close to the end of summer. 

I'd add that just because it is cultivated does not mean it is an area of no trespassing. There are all kinds of habitat projects done on our public lands which are seeded with a drill or trees planted in a row. Some are even irrigated. 

..


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

MooseMeat said:


> A 3 strand wire fence doesn't meet that definition in my opinion. All of us have hopped over a fence while hunting and not thought twice about it. A fence to exclude intruders should be something that takes longer than 14 seconds to get over.
> 
> I think most of us that use public lands regularly, would be shocked to learn how much private we cross through, camp on, or hunt on, and never even know it. Many places in Utah are mixed in public and unmarked. Knowingly or not, I think many of us have "trespassed".





Vanilla said:


> I would argue that a 3 strand barbed wire fence on its own definitely does not meet the statutory definition. One with "no trespassing" signs on it surely would, however.
> 
> I agree with respecting private property, Bowgy. But there are responsibilities under the law that go along with it. (The responsibilities are more relaxed and liberal now than they were 15 years ago too.) I don't fault you or think you are wrong for taking your stance, that is fine. But so long as people are following the law, they also can't be looked down upon in this arena.


I will ask this then, when you come to the 3 stand barbed wire fence, do you walk along it one direction or another until you come to a corner, gate or fishing stream to see if it is posted or do you just cross it without checking to see if it is posted properly. Noted some of these fences you could walk a long ways before coming to one of the required posted areas.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

My memory may be foggy but doesn't the fence have to be posted every quarter mile, along with trail crossings, along with the corners and gates?

Trail crossings can be confusing but if the landowner would just paint fence post every so far it would be a lot easier to decide 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> My memory may be foggy but doesn't the fence have to be posted every quarter mile, along with trail crossings, along with the corners and gates?
> 
> Trail crossings can be confusing but if the landowner would just paint fence post every so far it would be a lot easier to decide
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


23-20-14. Definitions -- Posted property -- Hunting by permission -- Entry on private
land while hunting or fishing -- Violations -- Penalty -- Prohibitions inapplicable to officers
-- Promotion of respect for private property.
(1) As used in this section:
(a) "Division" means the Division of Wildlife Resources.
(b) "Permission" means written authorization from the owner or person in charge to enter
upon private land that is properly posted, and must include:
(i) the signature of the owner or person in charge;
(ii) the name of the person being given permission;
(iii) the appropriate dates; and
(iv) a general description of the property.
(c) "Properly posted" means that "No Trespassing" signs or a minimum of 100 square
inches of bright yellow, bright orange, or fluorescent paint are displayed at all corners, fishing
streams crossing property lines, roads, gates, and rights-of-way entering the land. If metal fence
posts are used, the entire exterior side must be painted.
(2) (a) While taking wildlife or engaging in wildlife related activities, a person may not:
(i) without the permission of the owner or person in charge, enter upon privately owned
and properly posted land of any other person, firm, or corporation;


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