# This is a disgrace.....



## #1DEER 1-I

This is a thread I about the elk that got shot in paiute county. The guy who killed 5 more big bulls on his property because they were "detrimental to it". I'm sorry but this just isn't right to me, if this guy gets to shoot off 5 bulls just because he felt they were damaging his land, this is horse ****. I can't remember his name but this is out around the town of Angle (otter creek res.) and this same guy shot 5 other elk last year. He's called the DWR both times, told them to come pick them up, not to gut them on his property, and not to drive on his property. I myself have some land and some cows, and there's plenty of deer and a few elk that visit it every winter, and I don't have a problem with it. This guy should be charged in some way.... it's just too bad something can't be done to punish him.


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## Bax*

Very interesting....


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## klbzdad

PM me his name and I'll make him famous in Southern Utah! I'll also publicly make sure that any other land owners around him him are pressured to deny his butt access to their property for being a worthless jerk. There are plenty of sportsmen from RMEF or UWC that will make the trip with their quads or snow machines to come out and harass them off his property.....what a jerk!


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## klbzdad

I demand he produce his depredation permits for all five, no all ten of these animals. Now i'm pissed off!


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## #1DEER 1-I

I can't remember his name, someone told me today, but I'll find out what his name is and let you know. Yes it is the same guy, and all 10 of these animals have been bulls, and on top of that bulls that have had pretty big growth started when he's shot them. It just isn't right.... he should be charged with 10 poachings and time in jail.


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## humpyflyguy

I am not agreeing with the ranchers decision but at the same time I feel to stick up for his actions. First of all, I am sure no one on here has heard the whole story and has all the facts. I don't know the case other than what I have read here on the forum. But I would dare bet that there was multiple calls to the dwr and that the rancher and dwr has tried multiple things to keep the elk out of his property. The shooting of the elk were probably the last thing to do. So before we start being the judge and handing out judgement, think of it from the landowners point. His property is his livelihood and the dwr will not match dollar for dollar of what the elk ruin.


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## #1DEER 1-I

humpyflyguy said:


> I am not agreeing with the ranchers decision but at the same time I feel to stick up for his actions. First of all, I am sure no one on here has heard the whole story and has all the facts. I don't know the case other than what I have read here on the forum. But I would dare bet that there was multiple calls to the dwr and that the rancher and dwr has tried multiple things to keep the elk out of his property. The shooting of the elk were probably the last thing to do. So before we start being the judge and handing out judgement, think of it from the landowners point. His property is his livelihood and the dwr will not match dollar for dollar of what the elk ruin.


I have deer and elk every winter probably at least 150 deer every night on an alfalfa patch, and they don't damage it or ruin my crop. I am not going to shoot anything because they really don't hurt anything, because by the time "good growing" season comes around most of them have headed for the hills. Obivously this rancher is not working with the DWR at all if this has happened 2 years in a row, and he won't even allow the DWR to drive trucks to go get the elk off his property. With that being the case, he should have to deal with the animals himself. I'm sorry but the guy is an *******, it's just that simple. It's bull**** and all the guy is doing is stealing from each and every one of us.


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## klbzdad

I'm willing to hear the DWR's side of the story. I always ALWAYS stick up for them so I'd like to know why this man can take a protected species without being cited. If I get the, we didn't witness him shooting them, line of crap, I'll ask that they investigate including his firearms. That's not hard to do, they just need to take his arms, fire a round from each into a forensic pool, and then compare the rifling marks, right? Go NCIS! The call went out for volunteers and if it was to help this jerk, he should have had patience. The only justification is if he feared for his life or the life of his family. And to fear for his life an the life of his family two years in a row in the same place? Yeah, what's the saying? I'm too tired.....get me his name, I'll ask Mr. Chamberlain or even the new head of law enforcement what the deal is. I'd really like to know and then I'll gladly share.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Call Vance Mumford, his number is in another thread called "Piaute County elk opportunity". It is no secret he is the one who has shot all 10 elk. But the DWR investigated them and tried to press charges but all for not. His excuse was (and will be again, the DWR is investigating) that they were damaging his land and he had the right to shoot them. Well then don't I have the right to shoot anything I say is "damaging my property". He is the one who has called the DWR both times, told them he killed the elk, and to come pick them up, but not to drive vehicles on his property, or gut them on his property. Any sportstman who dosen't get a rage when you think about what he's done, well do you really care about our wildlife? The DWR has considered putting up a tall enough fence around his property to stop this from happening, but according to them he simply has too much land to do so. How much damage could a few elk be doing to that much land? And on top of that this guy runs his cows on the mountain during the spring and summer.......now I'm sorry but that makes me even more mad. At least take his mountain permit away to run his cows on the mountain if possible. Either way there has to be some form of punishment for this individual, and I hope they can pin him with something this time.


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## Flyfishn247

Get a rope.


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## klbzdad

I'm thinking there's going to be one big BBQ coming this summer! An eye for an eye? Some top sirloin, t-bones, ribeyes, BEEF JERKEY!!!!!!!!!!! I'll be making some calls today, and Vance, if you read this forum, you and I are about to become very familiar, something tells me I know the color of your tags and something also tells me your cattlemen are the jerks who chase wildlife on our mountain and place salt block on game trails where they have no business being. Those same cattlement have a habit of also leaving log gates to other grazing areas open "accidentally" and then pretending they don't spreakey ingrish. Have some class you jack of a donkey's rear!


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## fin little

Wasnt there a law passed a few years back stopping this very thing? I have a hard time seeing the aholes point of view .


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

I don't see how this is possible? How is that even an excuse? My family has some property, though no where near as much as this guy I'm sure. We sometimes get as many as 50 elk running around there. I haven't noticed any real damage from them. That makes me sick considering I've waited so many years to get a LE elk tag (still waiting) and some guy blasts off 5 people's chances in one day!


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## Lonetree

klbzdad

PM sent


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## rockroller

Don't get confused ,Vance Mumford is the wildlife biologist


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## klbzdad

VANCE, i'm still coming for you buddy! Only the BBQ will be in your back yard and it won't be your cows! That is the good news! 

Yeah, he is the bio.....my bad.


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## wyoming2utah

Ummm....Vance is the biologist who was trying to find some dedicated hunters to go help hazed the animals and keep them off the property. I don't think the name of the rancher has been put out there!


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## Critter

I like this, lets get a rope and hang him without a trial. We already have the wrong person sitting on top of the horse with the noose around his neck.


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## jahan

Critter said:


> I like this, lets get a rope and hang him without a trial.  We already have the wrong person sitting on top of the horse with the noose around his neck.


+1, I don't know any of the details, but it seems it would be wise to get all sides of the story before the lynching. Now if the facts show this gentlemen (which the name listed is not the correct person) acted incorrectly and the killing was unnecessary, then proceed on.


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## klbzdad

Spoke with Vance.....the landowner followed protocall for notifying the DWR of a nuisance and got impatient. The bulls were causing damage and he got concerned. However, Vance does ask that we allow his report to go to Headquarters for review. There it will be decided if the landowner has taken more from the public in monetary value for the bulls than the bulls have taken from him. If that is determined to be the case, a cease and desist order will be issued and the landowner will no longer be allowed to discretionarily take animals HE determins as nuisance animals. Vance still has to work the with guy and therefore asks that we be patient and cool our jets. The landowner allows up to 400 deer at a time to "fuel up" on his property during the migration and most of them are does on their way to fawning grounds. Same with the cow elk. It just so happened that there were a small group of bulls causing "mischief". 

Vance didn't justify what the landowner did and was there till 5:30 AM PULLING the big bulls off the land without assistance of a vehicle. However, he is still wanting this to be handled through proper channels so as not to upset what little relationship he has with this land owner. Predation hunts don't work here, they've tried. The animals are only here as part of the early spring migration. So, lets get that rope in good shape and the knot nice and tight and I'll sharpen my knifes and clean the BBQ just in case. In the mean time, phone calls will be made to BLM and Forest Service concerning grazing permits and studies that need to be done there. I find a little Buck Juice Apple Flavor brings in elk, deer, bear, and even cattle to eat everything it touches.....I'd hate to spill any on and around a study cage....oops


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## hockey

klbzdad said:


> I'm thinking there's going to be one big BBQ coming this summer! An eye for an eye? Some top sirloin, t-bones, ribeyes, BEEF JERKEY!!!!!!!!!!! I'll be making some calls today, and Vince, if you read this forum, you and I are about to become very familiar, something tells me I know the color of your tags and something also tells me your cattlemen are the jerks who chase wildlife on our mountain and place salt block on game trails where they have no business being. Those same cattlement have a habit of also leaving log gates to other grazing areas open "accidentally" and then pretending they don't spreakey ingrish. Have some class you jack of a donkey's rear!


I normally don't get involved in these type of threads. But you need to take a CHILL PILL!!
I for one am embarrassed that you call yourself a sportsman


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## #1DEER 1-I

klbzdad said:


> Spoke with Vance.....the landowner followed protocall for notifying the DWR of a nuisance and got impatient. The bulls were causing damage and he got concerned. However, Vance does ask that we allow his report to go to Headquarters for review. There it will be decided if the landowner has taken more from the public in monetary value for the bulls than the bulls have taken from him. If that is determined to be the case, a cease and desist order will be issued and the landowner will no longer be allowed to discretionarily take animals HE determins as nuisance animals. Vance still has to work the with guy and therefore asks that we be patient and cool our jets. The landowner allows up to 400 deer at a time to "fuel up" on his property during the migration and most of them are does on their way to fawning grounds. Same with the cow elk. It just so happened that there were a small group of bulls causing "mischief".
> 
> Vance didn't justify what the landowner did and was there till 5:30 AM PULLING the big bulls off the land without assistance of a vehicle. However, he is still wanting this to be handled through proper channels so as not to upset what little relationship he has with this land owner. Predation hunts don't work here, they've tried. The animals are only here as part of the early spring migration. So, lets get that rope in good shape and the knot nice and tight and I'll sharpen my knifes and clean the BBQ just in case. In the mean time, phone calls will be made to BLM and Forest Service concerning grazing permits and studies that need to be done there. I find a little Buck Juice Apple Flavor brings in elk, deer, bear, and even cattle to eat everything it touches.....I'd hate to spill any on and around a study cage....oops


I'm glad you called him, I was going to do the same later on today. Your reaction is much like many people I've talked to,..... to get the BBQ ready for some nice steaks. Anyway I think the landowner is rediculous in saying that 5 bull elk were causing such a nuisance on his land. And as Vance told you, there onloy there for the short spring months then move on. This isn't even growing season yet, so I really don't see any real damage they could be doing. 10 elk in 2 years is just plain wrong. Now I am all for them getting a hold of the BLM and forest service and getting his permits to use the mountain as his grazing land provoked. If the elk can't use his property for a month out of the year (esepecially when there's only a few of them) then why should his cows be able to use the elk's habitat for four or five months out of the year. I also see his demands that they can't use vehicles to get the elk as rediculous, this shows how big of a peace of **** the guy is, because he expects them to get some huge animals off his property that he poached without vehicles, he's just a true ******* in my opinion.


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## #1DEER 1-I

hockey said:


> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking there's going to be one big BBQ coming this summer! An eye for an eye? Some top sirloin, t-bones, ribeyes, BEEF JERKEY!!!!!!!!!!! I'll be making some calls today, and Vince, if you read this forum, you and I are about to become very familiar, something tells me I know the color of your tags and something also tells me your cattlemen are the jerks who chase wildlife on our mountain and place salt block on game trails where they have no business being. Those same cattlement have a habit of also leaving log gates to other grazing areas open "accidentally" and then pretending they don't spreakey ingrish. Have some class you jack of a donkey's rear!
> 
> 
> 
> I normally don't get involved in these type of threads. But you need to take a CHILL PILL!!
> I for one am embarrassed that you call yourself a sportsman
Click to expand...

I don't see how any sportsman wouldn't get a sense of rage through their body after something like this happens. What are we going to do let him get away with it so he kills 5 more or more than that next year?


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## klbzdad

hockey said:


> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking there's going to be one big BBQ coming this summer! An eye for an eye? Some top sirloin, t-bones, ribeyes, BEEF JERKEY!!!!!!!!!!! I'll be making some calls today, and Vince, if you read this forum, you and I are about to become very familiar, something tells me I know the color of your tags and something also tells me your cattlemen are the jerks who chase wildlife on our mountain and place salt block on game trails where they have no business being. Those same cattlement have a habit of also leaving log gates to other grazing areas open "accidentally" and then pretending they don't spreakey ingrish. Have some class you jack of a donkey's rear!
> 
> 
> 
> I normally don't get involved in these type of threads. But you need to take a CHILL PILL!!
> I for one am embarrassed that you call yourself a sportsman
Click to expand...

Uhmmmm......I'm the one needing an chill pill? Okay.... but only if its mutually taken. Did you bother to read the last post before getting getting all "embarrassed"?


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## klbzdad

We don't need to fight among our selves. Lets wait and see what happens when whoever gets a hold of it in Springville and go from there. And if you think I'd really do something illegal to avenge something done legally, so sworry, next category:/


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## bwhntr

jahan said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like this, lets get a rope and hang him without a trial. We already have the wrong person sitting on top of the horse with the noose around his neck.
> 
> 
> 
> +1, I don't know any of the details, but it seems it would be wise to get all sides of the story before the lynching. Now if the facts show this gentlemen (which the name listed is not the correct person) acted incorrectly and the killing was unnecessary, then proceed on.
Click to expand...

+2

You guys are ready to lynch this guy and you don't even know the facts? This is beginning to become protocol around here. Do any of you know what it means to assume good intent? Let the authorities handle the situation. :roll:


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## bullsnot

Guys read this thread viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42103

It is the best way we as sportsmen can get involved and make a positive difference.


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## klbzdad

bullsnot said:


> Guys read this thread viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42103
> 
> It is the best way we as sportsmen can get involved and make a positive difference.


+100

Vance said he is still needing DH's to help in hazing the deer off the property. The landowner allows the deer because he doesn't think they cause as much damage but the issue has been that a lot of projects have come down the pike the first of the year and hours are close to filled. So now its down to volunteers. I'm up for it even if it means being nice to the guy.

Lynch Mob.....isn't that a phone app or something silly? If the guy did this illegally, everyone would be pissed off. Fortunately DWR is doing due diligence, thanks to Vance being up all night, to handle it the way the law is set up. If it works out, and he does it again, he will face charges. I just want a rope in case a select few can't come off their high horse and read the thread before getting butt hurt over one or two posts. Might need to lasso them, string them up, and tickle torture them into the moment :roll: .


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## wyoming2utah

klbzdad said:


> Lynch Mob.....isn't that a phone app or something silly? .


Something silly? Hell No! Lynch Mob is a rock band!
http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/smoke-and-mirrors/id328004908


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## klbzdad

wyoming2utah said:


> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lynch Mob.....isn't that a phone app or something silly? .
> 
> 
> 
> Something silly? Hell No! Lynch Mob is a rock band!
> http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/smoke-and-mirrors/id328004908
Click to expand...

DUDE! I like them! I'll upload when I get home....thanks for the intro! That will make long hikes through the woods go hella smooth especially if I'm packing in a stand or putting in cell cameras!


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## bwhntr

klbzdad said:


> Lynch Mob.....isn't that a phone app or something silly? If the guy did this illegally, everyone would be **** off. Fortunately DWR is doing due diligence, thanks to Vance being up all night, to handle it the way the law is set up. If it works out, and he does it again, he will face charges. I just want a rope in case a select few can't come off their high horse and read the thread before getting butt hurt over one or two posts. Might need to lasso them, string them up, and tickle torture them into the moment :roll: .


Lol... :mrgreen:


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## JERRY

klbzdad said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lynch Mob.....isn't that a phone app or something silly? .
> 
> 
> 
> Something silly? Hell No! Lynch Mob is a rock band!
> http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/smoke-and-mirrors/id328004908
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> DUDE! I like them! I'll upload when I get home....thanks for the intro! That will make long hikes through the woods go hella smooth especially if I'm packing in a stand or putting in cell cameras!
Click to expand...

George Lynch was a member of Dokken before going it on his own. Excellent guitarist.


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## DallanC

Wow... Dokken. Havent thought of them in YEARS. Maybe I'll break out my cassette tape for a listen... if I can find it.


-DallanC


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## wyoming2utah

I still like Dokken..."In my dreams it's still the same, the love is strong it still remains!"


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## bigbr

*Wow! Pace Pacontee, "Get a ROPE"&#8230;&#8230;?*

Hey Kdad, Why don't you invite Don Peay, Doyal Moss, Ted Nugnet and the Big Bad Wolf to your picnic and you could solve all of Utah's wildlife issues in one fatal swoop? At least that's the vitriol that I have read from many who pound the keyboard on this site.

I know and have done business with many of the agricultural people down there and know many personally, they are good, hard working, honest people. The Private property interests in the area provide _*CRITICAL*_ habitat to both deer and elk at all times of the year, not just the spring.

To have concern is one thing, but vigilantly justice is not the answer and will have huge negative impacts in the future. You start getting ranchers grassing permits pulled and messing with their livelihoods, property and livestock; you will start a range war that will turn the whole area, if not state, into ground zero. You will see a hellofalot more than ten elk dead and your little picnic might just get too hot for you to handle.

Take my advice and find out what this guys issues are and then kill him with kindness&#8230;. 
Big


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## #1DEER 1-I

Well now head count is up to 10 bulls that he shot, and he wants the dwr to put up a 10 foot tall fence around his entire property. I also was told tags may have to be cut to compensate some now too.


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## Lonetree

I have never heard of dokken, but I've been grinning and plotting, while humming LeDoux, "Oh Powder River...........Theres no middle ground in this Johnson County War" :O•-:


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## klbzdad

bigbr said:


> *Wow! Pace Pacontee, "Get a ROPE"&#8230;&#8230;?*
> 
> Hey Kdad, Why don't you invite Don Peay, Doyal Moss, Ted Nugnet and the Big Bad Wolf to your picnic and you could solve all of Utah's wildlife issues in one fatal swoop? At least that's the vitriol that I have read from many who pound the keyboard on this site.
> 
> I know and have done business with many of the agricultural people down there and know many personally, they are good, hard working, honest people. The Private property interests in the area provide _*CRITICAL*_ habitat to both deer and elk at all times of the year, not just the spring.
> 
> To have concern is one thing, but vigilantly justice is not the answer and will have huge negative impacts in the future. You start getting ranchers grassing permits pulled and messing with their livelihoods, property and livestock; you will start a range war that will turn the whole area, if not state, into ground zero. You will see a hellofalot more than ten elk dead and your little picnic might just get too hot for you to handle.
> 
> Take my advice and find out what this guys issues are and then kill him with kindness&#8230;.
> Big


Big, I appreciate the sentiment, but again if you read the entire thread, I'm not a law breaker my friend. AND I've already considered putting in time to help him out. As far as the range war, I won't tolerate cattlemen who chase wildlife and leave log gates open on public land when I'm aware that they are supposed to be closed. I spend a fair amount of time on horseback down here as well during the summer so I'm aware if something is out of the ordinary. However, I'll address it with FS or BLM or if I'm friendly with the sheep or cattlemen I call them directly. Vance is handling this and I would never blindside the DWR, that shouldn't be in anyone's playbook except for the fine gentlemen you listed above. I'll leave that hard work to them. Origionally I was very ticked off. You can't justify to me taking these elk. Even if he did follow protocol, but its done and being handled properly. So, advice already taken but still appreciated. I like LeDoux too!!!!! I'm thinking "This Ol' Cowboy's Hat" kinda attitude though.


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## bwhntr

...but if it were a wolf he killed the sentiment would be SSS...hypocrites we all are.


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## klbzdad

bwhntr said:


> ...but if it were a wolf he killed the sentiment would be SSS...hypocrites we all are.


But nobody knows that SSS stands for Shoot Shovel and Shut up........wait......DANGIT!


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## bwhntr




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## Lonetree

"...but if it were a wolf he killed the sentiment would be SSS...hypocrites we all are."

Wolf or Elk, there is no difference to this guy. But some of the attitudes that currently prevail on SSS and the wolf debate, can contribute, to these kinds of issues. They become general attitudes of polarization in regard to goverment and wildlife, that can become detrimental to wildlife and hunters. 

I am all for being on the side of the DWR on this. They have obviously done the real yeomen's work here.(pun intended)

There must be a feed shortage to justify such actions? Maybe we need to put some volunteers together, to conduct range surveys on nearby public lands, just to make sure everything is ok. A half dozen guys with hulla hoops and clip boards, wont ignite a range war, right? We just want to make sure there is enough feed for the deer and elk on public lands.


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## bwhntr

I appreciate you thoughts Lonetree, sarcastic and serious. It would be interesting to run a poll on two different protected species. One the wolf and the other a bull elk. Asking people how they would feel about the illegal killing of the wolf and ask about the illegal killing of the elk. I would bet a pay check that MOST of the answers would be on two sides of the spectrum. 

So, assuming that is how people feel makes me wonder if we are truely law abiding citizens and nothing else matters, or we merely pick and choose whats important to us and base our attitudes on personal agendas.


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## Lonetree

I agree, it would definitely be a split poll. But if you get into more details on the poll, I think that people would agree on some things. We would probably agree that ranchers have the right to shoot wolves and elk, to defend thier property. And we would probably agree that we would rather not see them shoot elk at all though. And the split from there does not concern me too much, until you get into the more extreme views of SSS, or the views this rancher obviously holds. There are consequences to us as hunters on some of these views, and the promotion of them. It is part of why practicing conservation as a hunter, becomes divisive, sometimes intentionally.


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## JERRY

If this rancher wanted to remove these elk without shooting them I would have gladly donated my time to run them off of his property. What, he couldn't wait a day longer or even a week. I still do not know all the particulars, but even if they were destroying fences or buildings (disrespectful elk :roll: ) would that be worth the cost of 5 bull elk. Don't you think after one was shot the others would be long gone.

I respect ranchers and their rights, and I understand protecting your property, but come on.
We could probably get at least 50 people who would be willing to herd these animals off of his property. Probably more if they knew about this.


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## bwhntr

Being one that tries to "assume good intent" in all things. I am using restraint to try not to ciminalize the actions of the rancher. However, I wonder if this would have been a good situation to translocate the elk.


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## jahan

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Well now head count is up to 10 bulls that he shot, and he wants the dwr to put up a 10 foot tall fence around his entire property. I also was told tags may have to be cut to compensate some now too.


Are you related to Pheaz? :mrgreen: :O•-:  Just messing with you guys.  I seriously doubt 10 bull elk being taken off one unit would be enough to cut tags, but I could be wrong.


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## swbuckmaster

I think they need to take his cattle range permits and build him a fence around his place and then say tell him to keep his cattle on his own property. Make him maintain the fence and if a cow gets off his property and on the state land it needs to get shot. Easy fix!


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## wyoming2utah

horsesma said:


> I respect ranchers and their rights, and I understand protecting your property, but come on.
> We could probably get at least 50 people who would be willing to herd these animals off of his property. Probably more if they knew about this.


Maybe...but, the call for help came out a week ago on this site and was probably sent to all DHers, and no one answered the call (at least not enough volunteers). Granted, not all hunters got the message...but, it is easy to cry foul; much harder to actually get over there and do the work!


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## wyoming2utah

swbuckmaster said:


> I think they need to take his cattle range permits and build him a fence around his place and then say tell him to keep his cattle on his own property. Make him maintain the fence and if a cow gets off his property and on the state land it needs to get shot. Easy fix!


My sentiments exactly...+1

Except that I would add that not only will his cattle be shot, but he will have to haul his cattle off the public land without the assistance of any vehicles and without gutting them!


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## swbuckmaster

The guy is just grandstanding to milk the state for what ever he can.


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## klbzdad

I didn't ask Vance.....isn't meat donated?


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## bullsnot

bwhntr said:


> I appreciate you thoughts Lonetree, sarcastic and serious. It would be interesting to run a poll on two different protected species. One the wolf and the other a bull elk. Asking people how they would feel about the illegal killing of the wolf and ask about the illegal killing of the elk. I would bet a pay check that MOST of the answers would be on two sides of the spectrum.
> 
> So, assuming that is how people feel makes me wonder if we are truely law abiding citizens and nothing else matters, or we merely pick and choose whats important to us and base our attitudes on personal agendas.


I see your point but at the same time we are talking about two completely seperate issues and you have to consider your audience. Now I'm not saying in any way we shouldn't obey laws but categorizing elk as a protected species is something sportsmen support and desire. Generally speaking sportsmen manage elk through RAC's, the WB and the division.

Categorizing the wolf as a protected species is simply not want the majority of sportsmen want. In most of our lifetimes we have not had the wolf in Utah, sportsmen did not bring the wolf to Utah, and sportsmen did not support bringing the wolf to Utah. And we have no power to manage the wolf. Sportsmen pretty much had a gun put to thier temple and said you will have the wolf and you will like it.

This is the classic case of, yeah it's a law but it was created by the minority and forced on those that are most effected by it. It puts law abiding folks in a pickle.


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## klbzdad

I'm wondering what the Farm Bureau would suggest be done about these elk, don't they provide insurance for these poor land owners when Elk and Deer cause damage? I wouldn't know so I"m just putting it out there.


----------



## bwhntr

bullsnot said:


> I see your point but at the same time we are talking about two completely seperate issues and you have to consider your audience. Now I'm not saying in any way we shouldn't obey laws but categorizing elk as a protected species is something sportsmen support and desire. Generally speaking sportsmen manage elk through RAC's, the WB and the division.
> 
> Categorizing the wolf as a protected species is simply not want the majority of sportsmen want. In most of our lifetimes we have not had the wolf in Utah, sportsmen did not bring the wolf to Utah, and sportsmen did not support bringing the wolf to Utah. And we have no power to manage the wolf. Sportsmen pretty much had a gun put to thier temple and said you will have the wolf and you will like it.
> 
> This is the classic case of, yeah it's a law but it was created by the minority and forced on those that are most effected by it. It puts law abiding folks in a pickle.


I completely agree...therefore, IMO, we are not the "law abiding citizens" as we claim. We are not the so perfect sportsman that have memorized the laws for two weeks before every hunt and never break one as we claim. We as sportsman have an agenda and will pick and choose what laws we will or will not break.

So, the real question is can we all come to a consensus as to what laws are acceptable to break?


----------



## klbzdad

bwhntr said:


> bullsnot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see your point but at the same time we are talking about two completely seperate issues and you have to consider your audience. Now I'm not saying in any way we shouldn't obey laws but categorizing elk as a protected species is something sportsmen support and desire. Generally speaking sportsmen manage elk through RAC's, the WB and the division.
> 
> Categorizing the wolf as a protected species is simply not want the majority of sportsmen want. In most of our lifetimes we have not had the wolf in Utah, sportsmen did not bring the wolf to Utah, and sportsmen did not support bringing the wolf to Utah. And we have no power to manage the wolf. Sportsmen pretty much had a gun put to thier temple and said you will have the wolf and you will like it.
> 
> This is the classic case of, yeah it's a law but it was created by the minority and forced on those that are most effected by it. It puts law abiding folks in a pickle.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree...therefore, IMO, we are not the "law abiding citizens" as we claim. We are not the so perfect sportsman that have memorized the laws for two weeks before every hunt and never break one as we claim. We as sportsman have an agenda and will pick and choose what laws we will or will not break.
> 
> So, the real question is can we all come to a consensus as to what laws are acceptable to break?
Click to expand...

Wrong. I for one might talk with all bravado and with the intent of the biggest brass balls I can muster but I simply will not intentionally break any law that I am aware of. In fact, if I have to question if something is legal or not, I go the later and research or make a phone call. Here's why: 1st, I'm a public figure. I am bound to what the public perceives as a higher standard even though part of that persona is that of a complete smart butt half the time. 2nd, I'm a father and by that I am bound to set an example to him and instill discipline and values I would want him to be proud of in me so that he may continue those diciplines and values with his children as a direct reflection of me and my father and his father's father.

A contradiciton in terms at times, being a smart alec and completely honest? Yup, but I won't cross the line I will only push it to garner a reaction to evoke thought and conversation. That is how ideas are constructed and solutions come to fruition. So I don't want the guy hung by his man berries, but I do want him held accountable in some fashion as the division may be able to now.

-O\__- 
The wolf is beating a dead horse in my opinion because really it will be delisted in Wyoming this year and that will mean that the twenty or so competing bills and resolutions in the house and senate will then force congress to act on an exemption to remove it from protected status or even upgrade to RECOVERED status and that should give DWR momentum to ask again that USFWS approve their wolf management plan thus allowing any animals in Utah to be dealt with properly. Has it been divisive and caused bruising in the hearts of sportsmen? Without question the wolf issue is terribly polarizing but I'm ready for it to come to a rest.

Time to upload some Queensryche! I've been sent on a 90s rock fit!


----------



## wyoming2utah

Sorry, but I have always felt that any good person will try to obey the law regardless of whether or not he feels the law is good. If the law is not good, we should be working through the law-making and eliminating process--legislation--to change it. But, I can't buy into the idea that it is ok to pick and choose which laws to obey and which laws it is ok to break based on our opinions...no, I am no big fan of civil disobedience.

But, as far as Queensryche goes...rock on, man! I suggest getting some Tesla, Ratt, Skid Row, and maybe even some Loverboy (more 80s stuff)! I am movin' into the 70s stuff...I was diggin' the Kansas concert last night in Richfield!


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## #1DEER 1-I

okay I didn't want to bring this in because it might create a bias against the guy but sense so many defend his actions or want to see his side. Maybe you should realize he pulled a gun on the fish and game officer that was dealing with the same issue last year and put it on his hood, by law that officer had the right to shoot him dead on the spot, and that's exactly what the sheriff told the guy when he arrived, that if he was dealing with a veteran officer he would have been shot right then. This guy is crazy, ask anyone who knows him, and they say if you were to even mention the elk he might shoot you. His whole reason for doing this is not the excuse he's using (that the elk are damaging his property) it's because the DWR purchased property from him years ago and no longer allows him to run his cows on it, now this is his way of getting back at them. And yes there is talk of cutting 5 tags off the Monroe and 5 tags off the Beaver to componsate, now is this management issues? or just to create comotion and get people mad at the guy i don't know. But if you take 5 tags off each unit that people put in 20 years to draw out for, your going to create a lot of unhappy hunters. And anyone I've talked to is pissed at the guy and they'll follow protocol to by calling ranchers and cattlemen to get there cows off their mountain property within 24 hours otherwise they'll take care of there problems as well. All the guy is doing is creating hate and problems for everyone.


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## hrsmnhntr

Moderator Edit--Welcome to the forum! However, your first statements is clearly your opinion and not a medical diagnosis as to the landowner's state of mind, let's please keep the thread as a good discussion and based on factual information and keep away from anything that could be taken as libel--I have deleted some of your post accordingly

I have met this guy... I have seen his cattle in DWR WMAs in Kingston canyon and John's Valley several times. I have asked about it and have been told that he says "someone" leaves the gates open. He is the only one that benefits. He never seems too anxious to get his cow out. I know he killed five bulls. The smallest was still packing antlers and it was a 5 point. The guy I talked to said he couldn't reach around the bases on the biggest. The guy swore he killed ten bulls Monday night, but they only found five, so there could be five more laying out there somewhere. He also said he would keep shooting if they came back. Life would have to get hard for this guy to make him quit.


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## ramrod

this is a disgrace, this kind of thing happens more often than most people might think. some farmers feel it's the DWR'S job to keep the wildlife off there land. I say the wild life was there first. these people need to be brought to justice, they are steeling from ever sportsman in the state. :evil:


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## klbzdad

I don't think ANYONE is trying to justify this guy killing even ONE animal! And you have my word that I won't just forget and let it pass that he has done what he's already done and just get away with it. He will be somehow held accountable. But there is truly a fine line that must be walked here because there are two worlds that cross paths and civility needs to be maintained. I'm just as furious as you are and the more I learn the more upset I get. But the more we all know, the more powerful we all become. If he had pulled a firearm and laid it on the hood of my brother's truck, he would have been shot or at least taken a 50,000 volt ride. Regardless, Vance will submit his report. If the guy shoots even one more elk and I can verify it, I'll post some phone numbers and then we all need to start calling and voicing our outrage to those who can do something about it right now. If the guy has a vendetta and is going to punish DWR by killing an animal the public owns, then we get together and make sure he feels the pain in his pocketbook by going to his customers, addressing those roaming cattle that shouldn't be where they are, and requesting his grazing permits be reviewed. I'm certain that other cattlemen aren't going to want this guy's blazing hate for the DWR to represent them all, if that is the case and will support the boycott or push for some sort of sanctions against him. Then what is he going to do, kill more elk? Kind of hard to do from jail, isn't it? We'll kick him in the crazy boy berries one way or another, but the more facts we can get on this the better. He **** sure better not have taken more than five bulls Monday night!!!!!


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## HunterGeek

ramrod said:


> I say the wild life was there first. these people need to be brought to justice, they are steeling from ever sportsman in the state. :evil:


Well, not necessarily. All the elk in Utah are the descendants of elk brought in from the Yellowstone area by the old Utah Fish & Game about 100 years ago. If it weren't for the state trucking in these animals and coaxing them along for the past few decades, we wouldn't have elk in Utah other than a possible few on the north slope of the Uintas.

From that viewpoint, if the state and the state's sportsmen (us) want to have elk, we need to reimburse those people whose livelihoods are adversely affected by those elk being here. A farmer who barely makes enough profit to get by on each year takes a pretty big economic hit when a herd of elk decide to camp out in his alfalfa field each spring. From his point of view, the sportsmen of the state are stealing from him.

Now I'm not an apologist for this nut in Piute County who is apparently illegally grazing his cattle on WMAs, brandishing weapons and who seems to have anger management issues. Still, from his point of view, the inability of the DWR - despite their efforts - to control the elk on his property must be very frustrating. Like it or not, there are at least two sides to this whole issue of farmers vs wildlife.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

I understand that, I'm just venting here so I don't do it somewhere else. I'm pissed and I'm all for the fact 2 wrongs don't make a right, but I will do all I can legally to get back at him. One guy has talked to him (my bosses friend) and told him he's creating so many problems for so many other people, but he still gave the statement he'll keep shooting. This is just heresay but it has also been said the DWR has given this guy fencing and he has used it on differen't places he owns, now again i don't know if that's true. He isn't working with the DWR and he's pissing the public off, so if the DWR cuts tags and it pisses everyone off that will be one way, put his back against the wall for what he's done. Can't they put it on their website? in the newspaper? I think it needs to go as public as possible and his name needs to go out, I do know his name but I don't want to put it out. Either way I think he will get what's coming the more that people find out and the more people that find out.


----------



## Lonetree

bullsnot said:


> bwhntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate you thoughts Lonetree, sarcastic and serious. It would be interesting to run a poll on two different protected species. One the wolf and the other a bull elk. Asking people how they would feel about the illegal killing of the wolf and ask about the illegal killing of the elk. I would bet a pay check that MOST of the answers would be on two sides of the spectrum.
> 
> So, assuming that is how people feel makes me wonder if we are truely law abiding citizens and nothing else matters, or we merely pick and choose whats important to us and base our attitudes on personal agendas.
> 
> 
> 
> I see your point but at the same time we are talking about two completely seperate issues and you have to consider your audience. Now I'm not saying in any way we shouldn't obey laws but categorizing elk as a protected species is something sportsmen support and desire. Generally speaking sportsmen manage elk through RAC's, the WB and the division.
> 
> Categorizing the wolf as a protected species is simply not want the majority of sportsmen want. In most of our lifetimes we have not had the wolf in Utah, sportsmen did not bring the wolf to Utah, and sportsmen did not support bringing the wolf to Utah. And we have no power to manage the wolf. Sportsmen pretty much had a gun put to thier temple and said you will have the wolf and you will like it.
> 
> This is the classic case of, yeah it's a law but it was created by the minority and forced on those that are most effected by it. It puts law abiding folks in a pickle.
Click to expand...

Bullsnot

No, In the case of ranchers rights, the wolf and elk comparisons are spot on. Trying to frame it in the context of hunter geo-socio-politics, is just one more example, of an attititude that is all too pervasive as of late. That does not bode well for the long term conservation model.

Through most of my father's life and, and much of my own, there were more, and bigger bucks. So I should be able to use politcs and public opinion to push policies counter to conservation on those means alone, correct? You dont need to answer, based on your post, I'll take that as a yes.

There are simply too many false arguements out here, with long term detrimental effects to the conservation model, and movement. Taking the convenient, and polite stances does not further conservation, it amounts to defacto appeasment of the very pimps attempting to ***** it. Its the hard, unpopular decisions, holding to the model, and the line, that make the big differences. I mean, I kinda like country music, it doesn't make me a cowboy though.


----------



## klbzdad

Lonetree said:


> I mean, I kinda like country music, it doesn't make me a cowboy though.


COME OUT OF THE COUNTRY CLOSET LONETREE! Its okay to wear a belt buckle....or maybe not! -()/-


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## Lonetree

klbzdad

I used to wear buckles, boots, and hats, for years growing up. The 10X Resistol has been in the closet for years, and I currently wear Merrel trail groves for almost everything. Just a matter of practicality. I like to say I'm a former member.


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## garand

Has anyone though of or have connections with the Media?


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## klbzdad

garand said:


> Has anyone though of or have connections with the Media?


The media would just spin it one way or another......wait :O•-: :O•-: :O•-:


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## garand

Point taken, not a fan of the Media myself, but they are a good way to make an incident known to all, and the sqeeky wheel gets the grease, public opinion drives political action. Appreciate all the views on the page and am still waiting to draw a Bull Tag!


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## klbzdad

garand said:


> Point taken, not a fan of the Media myself, but they are a good way to make an incident known to all, and the sqeeky wheel gets the grease, public opinion drives political action. Appreciate all the views on the page and am still waiting to draw a Bull Tag!


I am a member of the media....  :shock: We'll see what happens with our crazy farmer friend. I suspect there have been enough phone calls today to garner some good attention. There's a right way and a wrong way to handle situations like this and making the DWR the bad guy isn't how I'd like to see it done. So, if we wake up tomorrow and the jerk has pulled the trigger again, I'll make a couple of calls to verify and if its true, I'll post some numbers and we all can go to work raising cain :twisted:


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## Cecil

#1DEER

Why don't you want to put this DB's name out? Why protect him? The public should know who this ******* is. What chaps my *** is that this happened last year and nothing happened to this guy. I hope this time he is treated like the poacher he is and it hits him in the wallet! At the very least his grazing rights should be revoked.


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## garand

Thanks for the reply, agree with good sense and patience, will keep reading.


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## Bax*

Cecil said:


> #1DEER
> 
> Why don't you want to put this DB's name out? Why protect him? The public should know who this ******* is. What chaps my *** is that this happened last year and nothing happened to this guy. I hope this time he is treated like the poacher he is and it hits him in the wallet! At the very least his grazing rights should be revoked.


Please *DO NOT* publish this individual's name on the forum. Although there are some things that have been said here that are pretty nutty, I dont want to start a shiz storm on this forum and will do my best to make sure that we dont let that happen.

I think we are all on the same side here and most likely dont agree with what happened here. However, the DWR is involved which in my eyes is a very good thing. Let them handle it and keep your rope at home.


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## klbzdad

+1 BAX

Lets let DWR go to work on him. Here is one suggestion but you have to do it with your audience in mind. If you'd like to get a jump on avoiding any kind of cut that could potentially happen in the number of tags that could happen at this guy's hands, send a respectful email to the Wildlife Board members. Let them know you're concerns and allow them to ask questions of law enforcement at their work meeting and at the public meeting if need be. If there is a need to address this legislatively, that would also be the best avenue to go in order to open dialogue as well. As far as his grazing permits, lets see how DWR handles this and if the guy pulls the trigger again. Something tells me he's already had a bag or two of burning crap on his doorstep (FIGURATIVELY SPEAKING FOR HELL'S SAKE!). So, take a breather and we'll see what the day brings. NOBODY is trying to protect this guy, we're looking out for OUR accumulative best interests here. And just so you are aware there are unseen wheels spinning in this matter too. Let everything work the way its supposed to and maybe the guy will get some prozac and actually turn out our next best friend :roll: !


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## klbzdad

Wildlife Board Members Link:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/board-members.html


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## Trooper

Don't get your panties in a twist everyone. Didn't you hear, this is happening on PRIVATE property- so the market will step in and fix this situation. I'm sure one of you is right now getting the money together to buy this property out from under this guy. 

Besides, once all the gosh-darn public property surrounding this guy is rightfully transferred back to individuals, this sort of thing won't happen at all!!!!!! Then you all can just go and pay market value to hunt one of the 160 acre "ranches" that will comprise what was formerly known as the "Monroe" and the "Beaver". Sounds like paradise to me!!!!


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## hossblur

I agree, the market should handle it. Each one of those bulls is worth at least $5000. He now owes the state of Utah $50,000 the last two years. We will gladly let him subtract the "damage" they did(verified by a third party of course. Also, the law(since he likes the letter of the law so much) says that any range animal left on public property after the drop dead date, is PUBLIC PROPERTY. If he leaves ONE COW on the mountain after his fall date, it is now mine. See I support ranchers who support us. BUT, how much would it cost this clown on the open market to replace the acreage he feeds(mtn. permits) since he SOOO CONCERNED about damage to ground by animals? His mtn. permits are simply government welfare that we all support because we assume our animals feed off him. His name should be posted, he isnt a private individual, he is the owner of a commercial enterprise, no different than Doyle Moss, or Rulon Jones. As for his side of the story, the whole" don't drive on my property to remove the carcasses" pretty much tells you what kind of azzzhat he is. Curious though, why did the DWR go get them? DO they go get every dead bird? Racoon?? He killed them, the State should send him the bill for the DWR's time and the ammount(on the real market) it costs to butcher 5 elk. Lastly, what is the difference between this guys property and 160 acre ranches?? You can't hunt either so what is the difference? Except most 160 acre ranch owners like the wildlife and would prefer they be there.


----------



## pheaz

Bax* said:


> Cecil said:
> 
> 
> 
> #1DEER
> 
> Why don't you want to put this DB's name out? Why protect him? The public should know who this ******* is. What chaps my *** is that this happened last year and nothing happened to this guy. I hope this time he is treated like the poacher he is and it hits him in the wallet! At the very least his grazing rights should be revoked.
> 
> 
> 
> Please *DO NOT* publish this individual's name on the forum. Although there are some things that have been said here that are pretty nutty, I dont want to start a shiz storm on this forum and will do my best to make sure that we dont let that happen.
> 
> I think we are all on the same side here and most likely dont agree with what happened here. However, the DWR is involved which in my eyes is a very good thing. Let them handle it and keep your rope at home.
Click to expand...

+1 DO NOT publish the name :evil: :evil: :evil: . There is a system for DWR and Private land owners to remove these animals off the property prior to blood shed. Did the DWR and Land Owner both follow protocall (sp) on the system. If the land owner called or wrote a letter to the DWR 48 hrs prior to blood shed he did. Get the facts before you look silly here.


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## DallanC

hossblur said:


> Each one of those bulls is worth at least $5000. He now owes the state of Utah $50,000 the last two years.


I'm sorry but no. An LE bull is worth $280, if its in a premium unit then its $508. That is what the F&G charge for a bull elk, they set the price.

-DallanC


----------



## Huge29

DallanC said:


> hossblur said:
> 
> 
> 
> Each one of those bulls is worth at least $5000. He now owes the state of Utah $50,000 the last two years.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but no. An LE bull is worth $280, if its in a premium unit then its $508. That is what the F&G charge for a bull elk, they set the price.
> 
> -DallanC
Click to expand...

no, not in a poaching case, value if the tag and the animal are very distinct.


----------



## Lonetree

At least $5000 each. People have had been hit with similar numbers for deer. So he will need to show allot of damage to his property to offset that. Even if it is $5000 total, do you think he can show damages in that amount?


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## swbuckmaster

Dallen
I think your incorrect as well. The value of the tag and animal are totally different especially on a le unit and especially on a unit with high age objectives. 

A trophy buck is worth about 5000 an elk is worth even more. Just look at what they go for on cwmu units. I guarantee you will have to pay way more then 508 to hunt every year.


----------



## DallanC

Huge29 said:


> no, not in a poaching case, value if the tag and the animal are very distinct.


This isnt a poaching case though is it? No charges filed and what he did was legal. I dont agree with it but legal is legal. If people dont like it get the **** law changed.

I detest this "Golden Calf" Idolatry mentality we have now towards wildlife. Its destroying the nobility of hunting and fueling trophy hunting and crazy management practices that is feeding into a vicious cycle. Call me crazy but I don't see any distinction between a bull elk and a cutt-throat at strawberry, illegal harvest = poaching no matter the species.

A guy I know brags constantly about how much time he spends outdoors behind a spotting scope and how many hunters he has turned in for what *HE* deems questionable behavior... but he'll happily bring home a dozen slot cutts from strawberry every trip. The duplicity drives me nuts!

-DallanC


----------



## DallanC

swbuckmaster said:


> Dallen
> I think your incorrect as well. The value of the tag and animal are totally different especially on a le unit and especially on a unit with high age objectives.
> 
> A trophy buck is worth about 5000 an elk is worth even more. Just look at what they go for on cwmu units. I guarantee you will have to pay way more then 508 to hunt every year.


I quoted the prices right out of the state proclamation. What tags sell for in special case situations like auctions and banquets are irrelevant, those are charitable donations basically at fundraising events. The vast majority of all tags issued are done so at the prices set by the state.

If you feel an elk is worth $5k, then by all means lets raise the cost of the permits from $280 to $5,000.

-DallanC


----------



## Fishrmn

DallanC said:


> A guy I know brags constantly about how much time he spends outdoors behind a spotting scope and how many hunters he has turned in for what *HE* deems questionable behavior... but he'll happily bring home a dozen slot cutts from strawberry every trip. The duplicity drives me nuts!
> -DallanC


Soo .... have you called the Poaching Hotline and turned him in? If not, why not?


----------



## klbzdad

:RULES: o-||


----------



## Lonetree

Dallen

I agree to a great extent on the value arguement you made. In the case of restitution, there has to be scale of value applied though, because wildlife is valueable. On the other side of that, yeah I agree the dollar amounts drive a sick culture. We all "value" wildlife, the bigger debate needs to be had about the manner and means by which we "value" wildlife.


----------



## MWScott72

#1DEER 1-I said:


> humpyflyguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not agreeing with the ranchers decision but at the same time I feel to stick up for his actions. First of all, I am sure no one on here has heard the whole story and has all the facts. I don't know the case other than what I have read here on the forum. But I would dare bet that there was multiple calls to the dwr and that the rancher and dwr has tried multiple things to keep the elk out of his property. The shooting of the elk were probably the last thing to do. So before we start being the judge and handing out judgement, think of it from the landowners point. His property is his livelihood and the dwr will not match dollar for dollar of what the elk ruin.
> 
> 
> 
> I have deer and elk every winter probably at least 150 deer every night on an alfalfa patch, and they don't damage it or ruin my crop. I am not going to shoot anything because they really don't hurt anything, because by the time "good growing" season comes around most of them have headed for the hills. Obivously this rancher is not working with the DWR at all if this has happened 2 years in a row, and he won't even allow the DWR to drive trucks to go get the elk off his property. With that being the case, he should have to deal with the animals himself. I'm sorry but the guy is an ****, it's just that simple. It's **** and all the guy is doing is stealing from each and every one of us.
Click to expand...

I'm with humpyfly guy - we don't know all the facts. #1Deer - 150 deer probably don't do much damage to your alfalfa, BUT a herd of elk can make a mess of fencing in a hurry...among other things.


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## swbuckmaster

DallanC said:


> I quoted the prices right out of the state proclamation. What tags sell for in special case situations like auctions and banquets are irrelevant, those are charitable donations basically at fundraising events. -DallanC


I never once said anything about auction tags only brought up cwmu tags. You want to hunt quality bulls every year you are going to pay through the nose. Im paying through the nose in the form of years off my life. In fact i have no points for elk right now. If i started putting in i may never draw a le tag in my life. So the elk is worth more then the cheep price the tag sells for. This is why you pay market price for an animal in a poaching case.


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## #1DEER 1-I

You guys don't get it, you don't understand who this individual is.... From what I've heard the DWR is tired of it, he won't work with them, and they are unable to get him to compromise. It is a fact they have paid him for damage done to his field, by the amount of deer/elk they have counted on his property. So where paying him with our taxes and letting him shoot our trophy game animals? Oh and also a side note to this now, I was talking with someone and he shot 3 deer today.


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## hossblur

Again why is he nameless?? HE IS RUNNING A COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE, he has a buisness license and a tax ID number, he is different than you and I. He is selling that hay to someone, those cows to someone, perhaps THEY should get a little pressure about doing buisness with a d-bag. You are not slandering him, he actually did kill elk, and now deer, there is a DWR report, why does he deserve privacy? He is not killing these animals as a private citizen(he would go to jail for that), he is doing so as a commericial entity.


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## #1DEER 1-I

I PM'd you hossblur


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## hossblur

**** ****** landowner. To be fair, my name is Nick Jorgensen.


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## #1DEER 1-I

And I agree with you hossblur, he should not be hidden for what he has done, he should be punished heavily in some way, even if it means by public hate. There's nothing on this thread that isn't true about this guy, he killed elk and now he killed deer and now we all know.


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## hossblur

#1 deer, pmed you


----------



## hossblur

Got a nice board warning for my previous post, apparently the board doesn't understand the definition of libel. So we can rip Doyle Moss for unproven and made up bs. We call out Don Peay for everything. Names are dropped in here for nothing, I even dropped my own. BUT when there is an actual investigation, with an actual police(dwr( report suddenly we are worried about slander/libel? Yeah board its your forum, yeah they are your rules, but WE who support you could use some support ourselves. WE, the wildlife enthusiasts in the forum are attacked at all sides, enviros, PETA, private hunting clubs, "conservation groups", and prima donna landowners. YOU CAN"T BE SUED FOR SAYING ANYTHING THAT IS PART OF THE PUBLIC RECORD. IF THERE IS A POLICE REPORT IT IS NO LONGER LIBEL, IT IS FACT. 
The reason guys respect Ted Nuggent(even if they think he is a clown) is because he says what he thinks, and ALWAYS REMEMBERS WHO HIS SUPPORTERS ARE. Sure would be nice if you, THE BOARD, remembered that once in a while.


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## hossblur

As side note, I assume that a lot of you guys are country music fans. I am too. The other day we were playing a little name that tune while on a road trip and the song about "being addicted to the pain" came on and I drew a blank. A while latter on another station there was a song about "all these songs about rain". My wife swears that Gary Allen sings them and that he is from S. Utah, even owns a ranch in Marysville. I really don't think so, I think she is confused with Willie Nelson, and I believe his ranch is in indianola. Any who, perhaps you all can clear it up, does the COUNTRY SINGER Gary Allen live in Maryville, and have property in the area, or is she confused with old Willie Nelson? I know when I drive past old Willies place down on US89, I sure see a lot of elk on his ground, wonder if Gary Allen has them too? Just a thought. 

On second thought maybe I will just google Gary Allen, Marysville Utah, and see if he has a fan website, and a touring scedule, sure would like to see a concert!


----------



## bowhunt3r4l1f3

hossblur said:


> As side note, I assume that a lot of you guys are country music fans. I am too. The other day we were playing a little name that tune while on a road trip and the song about "being addicted to the pain" came on and I drew a blank. A while latter on another station there was a song about "all these songs about rain". My wife swears that Gary Allen sings them and that he is from S. Utah, even owns a ranch in Marysville. I really don't think so, I think she is confused with Willie Nelson, and I believe his ranch is in indianola. Any who, perhaps you all can clear it up, does the COUNTRY SINGER Gary Allen live in Maryville, and have property in the area, or is she confused with old Willie Nelson? I know when I drive past old Willies place down on US89, I sure see a lot of elk on his ground, wonder if Gary Allen has them too? Just a thought.
> 
> On second thought maybe I will just google Gary Allen, Marysville Utah, and see if he has a fan website, and a touring scedule, sure would like to see a concert!


Willie Nelson used to own that property. He didn't pay his taxes so the govt took it away. Someone else bought it but it still has the W-N on top of the entrance. My family property is 3 miles from there.


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## DallanC

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Willie Nelson used to own that property. He didn't pay his taxes so the govt took it away. Someone else bought it but it still has the W-N on top of the entrance. My family property is 3 miles from there.


LOL... I think you missed hossblur's point entirely, it had nothing to do with Willy Nelson. :O•-:

-DallanC


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## brigb

I own a farm in Marysvale, in the area of Gary Allen and the deer and elk have come on our property as well and we don't mind that much we get paid for the damage that they do. I enjoy seeing the animals, can't blame them for not understanding that field is not intended for them to eat. To get back to the matter, **** has said in the past that he hates the animals. He has gone too far, so in order to change the matter we need to go to the legistlation and see if we can change things. I have children and very valuable horses, I don't want a stray bullet to come my direction. The authorities are watching him very closely now, I can say they are making life a little difficult. In conclusion, we also need to change the poaching and trespassing laws, I have a terrible time with them, I guess people just can't read anymore.


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## ramrod

the state needs to prosecute and make an example out of this *** **** so farmers around the state will think twice about killing wildlife that pass through there land. :evil:


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## wyogoob

brigb said:


> I own a farm in Marysvale, in the area of Gary Allen and the deer and elk have come on our property as well and we don't mind that much we get paid for the damage that they do. I enjoy seeing the animals, can't blame them for not understanding that field is not intended for them to eat. To get back to the matter, **** has said in the past that he hates the animals. He has gone too far, so in order to change the matter we need to go to the legistlation and see if we can change things. I have children and very valuable horses, I don't want a stray bullet to come my direction. The authorities are watching him very closely now, I can say they are making life a little difficult. In conclusion, we also need to change the poaching and trespassing laws, I have a terrible time with them, I guess people just can't read anymore.


An insightful post, welcome to the Forum.


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## klbzdad

Folks, the wheels are turning on this and people are watching. DWR is doing everything they can. Mr. Country singer is now being watched and yours truly is being "snickered" at by folks who doubt sportsmen are even players in this game. Well, those same people will be eating shoelace soon. We, as sportsmen will need to take action but its not with a pitchfork and unfortunately (dang it!) not with a rope. Its with pen and paper, keyboard, telephone, morse code, smoke signal, or good old face to face with elected officials about this very kind of thing. I'll post the WORKING link to our representatives as soon as I find it, the one I had doesn't bring anything up anymore. It also doesn't hurt to send an email to the RAC and WB so as to drum up support from those who represent us there. We do have members on those bodies who sit as "at large" and "aggriculture" who can communicate with Mr. Country Singer's groups and hopefully communicate to him through song and dance that he's loosing favor on both sides. Speaking of which. Country music must be really hard these days:

http://farm.ewg.org/persondetail.php?cu ... vel=detail

I'm glad he's not starving out there on top of what DWR is paying him this year. Wish I made over ten grand in a month but I found a paper done by a student who did a study down in San Juan. If you like this kind of stuff, its enlightening. Why this monkey's butt Mr. Country Singer is getting the coddling he's getting is beyond me when the damage can't be near as bad as what was experienced in San Juan. Study Paper

And its important to understand the law so here is the DWR Depredation Code R657-44. It will refer to Section 23 a which is found here Wildlife Resources Code Of Utah Title 23. Most are are already aware of these but just in case it would be nice if there was a law the prevented the shooting of animals if a DWR agent was on site or had given notice of intent to respond and correct the issue. I think the wagons were beginning to circle on this among sportsmen just as the jerk was starting to bust off caps into wildlife. Plenty of help would have come out to help the animals if he'd have been patient. Doesn't help bridge any canyons between cattlemen and sportsmen.

I for one will think of this very thing when I walk out of my trailer this summer and fall and step in a steamy pile of cow crap on public land. And I did pose this question but got no answer. If I park my travel trailer on public land and a bovine bull comes into my camp, on public land, and uses the corner of my trailer as his scratching post tearing the siding off, am I justified in shooting him or do I just have to take it because his owner feeds wildlife and is a member of the farm bureau? Hope this provides some food for thought. I like that one song myself, Watching Airplanes.


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## Huge29

brigb said:


> I own a farm in Marysvale, in the area of Gary Allen and the deer and elk have come on our property as well and we don't mind that much we get paid for the damage that they do. I enjoy seeing the animals, can't blame them for not understanding that field is not intended for them to eat. To get back to the matter, **** has said in the past that he hates the animals. He has gone too far, so in order to change the matter we need to go to the legistlation and see if we can change things. I have children and very valuable horses, I don't want a stray bullet to come my direction. The authorities are watching him very closely now, I can say they are making life a little difficult. In conclusion, we also need to change the poaching and trespassing laws, I have a terrible time with them, I guess people just can't read anymore.


Welcome to the forum! From what I understand, this is a vital migration route for two major mountain areas, so it is not a problem that is going to away no matter how many animals are slaughtered by this character...I hope they can get it figured sooner rather than later.


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## klbzdad

brigb said:


> I own a farm in Marysvale, in the area of Gary Allen and the deer and elk have come on our property as well and we don't mind that much we get paid for the damage that they do. I enjoy seeing the animals, can't blame them for not understanding that field is not intended for them to eat. To get back to the matter, **** has said in the past that he hates the animals. He has gone too far, so in order to change the matter we need to go to the legistlation and see if we can change things. I have children and very valuable horses, I don't want a stray bullet to come my direction. The authorities are watching him very closely now, I can say they are making life a little difficult. In conclusion, we also need to change the poaching and trespassing laws, I have a terrible time with them, I guess people just can't read anymore.


Great post. Thank you and welcome to the forum. I sent you a PM.


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## middlefork

klbzdad said:


> I for one will think of this very thing when I walk out of my trailer this summer and fall and step in a steamy pile of cow crap on public land. And I did pose this question but got no answer. If I park my travel trailer on public land and a bovine bull comes into my camp, on public land, and uses the corner of my trailer as his scratching post tearing the siding off, am I justified in shooting him or do I just have to take it because his owner feeds wildlife and is a member of the farm bureau? Hope this provides some food for thought. I like that one song myself, Watching Airplanes.


Research open range laws. That should keep you entertained for awhile.

Thanks for the information on this problem.


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## klbzdad

Yup.....so this guy can go and do this as he pleases but if you want to know how lop sided it really becomes. The second that bovine tears the crap out of your lawn, you'd better run out there talk nice to it while it does it....show it the soft spots so it doesn't injure itself on your property because you could be liable.

http://www.hcn.org/issues/269/14595

http://www.publiclandsranching.org/html ... press3.htm

Maybe time for us to get together and change some things? And while we are at it, how about we work on some trespass issues so that we get good landowners willing to help us in the fight on board too? In one article I read, open range cattle getting loose in every instance was blamed on.....wait for it.....WAIT FOR IT......hunters not shutting gates or hunters trespassing on private property and leaving gates open. Really? Presumptive isn't it? I never would have thought this kind of thing was really happening but turns out its more common than we hear about. Hell, there's an entire law allowing landowners to do it. Although the decent landowners exercise good faith effort to let DWR get there and get a mitigation plan in place.


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## #1DEER 1-I

brigb said:


> I own a farm in Marysvale, in the area of Gary Allen and the deer and elk have come on our property as well and we don't mind that much we get paid for the damage that they do. I enjoy seeing the animals, can't blame them for not understanding that field is not intended for them to eat. To get back to the matter, **** has said in the past that he hates the animals. He has gone too far, so in order to change the matter we need to go to the legistlation and see if we can change things. I have children and very valuable horses, I don't want a stray bullet to come my direction. The authorities are watching him very closely now, I can say they are making life a little difficult. In conclusion, we also need to change the poaching and trespassing laws, I have a terrible time with them, I guess people just can't read anymore.


Thank you for commenting, get your opinions to as many as you can, and make it clear that you own land around him, and you aren't acting the same way. I think you would have to agree the DWR is being fair on reimbersment and on doing everything they can to keep the animals off this guys land, but it's virtually impossible where his land sits. Another reason I feel the DWR is helping everyone else out around this *******....is their refusing the 10 ft fence, both because of money and because they are not going to put all the pressure of the wildlife on surrounding farmers and farmground just so the one acting like an ******* gets his way.


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## JuddCT

Bax* said:


> klbzdad,
> 
> I just read your link http://www.thefatmaninthewoods.com and saw your mention of what was being discussed in this thread 8)
> 
> Well done!


I'd love to quote you on here, but my favorite one would get me banished! :twisted:


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## proutdoors

ramrod said:


> the state needs to prosecute and make an example out of this *** **** so farmers around the state will think twice about killing wildlife that pass through there land. :evil:


I do NOT condone how this landowner acted, but comments like this, IMHO, are no better! As a landowner...farmer.....whatever other label one chooses to put on me.....I can tell you the damage done by wildlife can be VERY extensive and VERY costly to the landowner. Do you not realize where the food you buy at the grocery store comes from? Here is a hint: it comes from FARMERS! If the cost of growing the food you enjoy goes up, guess what, the cost of you purchasing from the grocery store MUST go up as well. If I have to feed several hundred deer all winter....as I DID this last winter.....when I am short on feed, it hurts my bottom line, and thus I will have to up the price for ALL my wares. I grow the healthiest/tastiest grass-fed beef/pork in this area, I also grow the healthiest/tastiest veggies/fruits in this area, and I sell it at a VERY reasonable price. But, if my costs go up, I have no choice but to charge more......basic economics.

To be clear, so as to avoid any inane attacks on my position on this specific matter; I do NOT condone the actions of this landowner. I do however understand his frustration with the government agencies. I tried all winter to get the deer/elk off my land, with nothing but frustration to show for it. I also want/need more info in this case before I can make a firm stand on this issue. To many 'I heard......' for my liking..... Maybe it is because a couple of years ago I was accused of unethical actions, whereas I was tried and convicted on the internet with only one side being told. Just saying.......


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## klbzdad

I have to agree with Pro to a very high degree. But those who hunt big game and encounter bovine and sheep are pretty much aware of open range laws. We also respect the fact that land owners do in large part provide for some of the animals we hunt. I can appreciate how frustrating it must be but there are places like this and plenty of groups to scream at to get help, if I'm not mistaken. This guy's land is part of a migration funnel. I don't have topo maps for that county yet but I understand he does get a good majority of the pressure. That being said, why not make his property the pivot point and push them around? I don't know because I haven't been out there. I'm forbidden by my wife. She knows I'll get into trouble and she's right. In speaking with DWR, FB, legislators, law enforcement, and the research I've done since this happened the first of last week its pretty clear that the law is in Mr. Country Singer's favor but he will be compensated above what he already has been and the division has and continues doing everything they can. Open range laws in my opinion, are B.S. but a different issue. What isn't is that when a landowner asks for help, and DWR is responding or ON SITE, that should remove the right of the landowner from pulling the trigger. DWR is the managing body of our wildlife and if they are there to help and a mitigation plan is being put into place then that should be the end of it. The law should be changed to protect wildlife while still offering relief to landowners. Sound fair Pro? Is there a compromise that would achieve both protection for protected species AND the rights of landowners? Maybe a compromise of streamlining the process of compensation for damage for limiting the trigger pulling?


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## martymcfly73

I think most of us can agree that PRO is the exception to the rule as farmers and ranchers are concerned. He has done more for the deer and elk herds in this state than most of us. Lets be clear we are talking about ONE rancher, and not generalize.


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## brigb

I understand deer and elk can be a problem.


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## wyoming2utah

I am pretty ticked off at this nut job...I was over in Angle over the weekend fishing. Some cows had crossed over some fence onto BLM land where they are NOT supposed to be (based on brands, I am pretty sure thay are his). These cows have been purposely fenced off the stream banks to protect this section of public land...I really wanted to shoot those **** cows! What a hypocrite...I really believe all of you who are upset about this idiot should be emailing your legislators and representatives as well as the DWR, the RACs, the WB, and anyone else you can think of. I also know that this isn't the first year that this guy has done this...the only way that this guy will be reprimanded or face any kind of consequences is if sportsmen raise hell! I believe the word needs to get out and I was glad to see the name of this ahole printed in this thread...


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## klbzdad

Here ya go:

Governor Herbert Webform email:
http://governor.utah.gov/goca/form_governor.html

Legislators
Rostor: http://le.utah.gov/Documents/2012roster.pdf
Map: http://le.utah.gov/GIS/findDistrict.jsp

Wildlife Board Members:
[email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]

RAC Board Members:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/rac-members.html

And any interested, I've been told that sportsmen will just be laughed at by one lady in Cedar City but I don't know if I trust her judgement. Here are some that may be able to have influence with Mr. Country Singer:

Farm Bureau
John Keeler, Director Field Services & Southern Regional manager
435-851-1374
[email protected]

Utah Cattleman's Association Webform
http://www.utahcattlemen.org/contactus.aspx
150 South 600 East #10-B
Salt Lake City, Utah 84102
801-355-5784


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## Iron Bear

Reality check:

This rancher you all are up in arms about. Has had less impact on the deer and elk herd on Monroe in his entire lifetime as one cougar has in one yr. Remember 1 cougar kills around 50 deer per yr. And goofy will tell you a cougar on Monroe kills plenty of elk. 

But then again this site is notorious for vilifying humans.

I think an estimated population of 20 cougar in a herd of less than 5000 deer and a buck doe ratio around 10/100 is a disgrace. 

And on another note I noticed this thread and another about hazing deer and elk off private land in Paiute county. Maybe my idea of a Hardware ranch style facility on the Elbow Ranch WMA just outside of Marysvale would be a win win win. I can envision folks coming in droves to look at 350" bulls wintering by the dozens. After all wasn't the catalyst for Hardware the protection of ranchers land in Cache Valley? 

It may also help concentrate elk opening up more elk free winter range for deer on Monroe.


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## wyoming2utah

Iron Bear said:


> Reality check:
> 
> This rancher you all are up in arms about. Has had less impact on the deer and elk herd on Monroe in his entire lifetime as one cougar has in one yr.


Yeah...especially since the deer and elk he is shooting are coming off the Parker...! :roll: I am ticked because this ahole has no problem grazing his cattle on WMAs and other public land that he has no grazing permits for, but won't allow deer and elk to graze on his land. He is a total hypocrite...and this whole mess is about the DWR not letting him graze his cattle on DWR land!


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## wyoming2utah

I hope something like this is the end result of his actions...

www.craigdailypress.com/news/2008/apr/0 ... strations/


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## brigb

I know all about the predators taking down the deer and elk population, we have mountain lions, coyotes and bears, that we contend with. The coyotes and I have a date, they are starting to get to close the the barn and trailers we stay in. I am a farmer myself and again I am going to say that I enjoy seeing the wildlife on our farm, especially the elk. My little girls and I were out riding one day last year and rode up on a herd of elk about 15 or so and there was a good sized bull there, cows and some calves, my girls were so excited they could hardly stand it. We were about 75 yards down wind from them and they didn't see us for about 10 minutes. How many kids or even people can say that they have done that. This rancher that we are discussing is very close to my farm and I can tell you this he is massacring these animals because is mad at the FS. This has turned into a hate crime and he isn't going to stop until someone stops him. He is close enough that a stray bullet could easily reach my family. So please instead of just stating your opinion on here contact the legislator and help the authorities to do the right thing so we can enjoy these creatures. I am one person, we need an army. I don't know if anyone knows this but this rancher pushed the DWR to have a special hunt to get rid of the elk, so they gave out tags this year for this particular area. My farm is close to the base of the mountain and wow the trespassers, my little girl almost got run over on my own farm because of the trespassers. I had someone shoot a buck deer on my farm right in front of us, they got a verbal smack down. I watched that small herd all summer and he wasn't even that big. There needs to be laws put into place for all of these problems. I can say that if I felt threatened by a wild animal I would have to take care of it, but I am not going to go on a killing spree just for revenge. That is the difference with this rancher.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Iron Bear said:


> Reality check:
> 
> This rancher you all are up in arms about. Has had less impact on the deer and elk herd on Monroe in his entire lifetime as one cougar has in one yr. Remember 1 cougar kills around 50 deer per yr. And goofy will tell you a cougar on Monroe kills plenty of elk.
> 
> But then again this site is notorious for vilifying humans.
> 
> I think an estimated population of 20 cougar in a herd of less than 5000 deer and a buck doe ratio around 10/100 is a disgrace.
> 
> And on another note I noticed this thread and another about hazing deer and elk off private land in Paiute county. Maybe my idea of a Hardware ranch style facility on the Elbow Ranch WMA just outside of Marysvale would be a win win win. I can envision folks coming in droves to look at 350" bulls wintering by the dozens. After all wasn't the catalyst for Hardware the protection of ranchers land in Cache Valley?
> 
> It may also help concentrate elk opening up more elk free winter range for deer on Monroe.


The DWR is saying half Monroe animals, half Beaver animals.


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## wyoming2utah

#1DEER 1-I said:


> The DWR is saying half Monroe animals, half Beaver animals.


My bad....I thought he was shooting them off property near Angle. Where did I get that idea from? Is Gary Allen from Angle?


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## #1DEER 1-I

wyoming2utah said:


> #1DEER 1-I said:
> 
> 
> 
> The DWR is saying half Monroe animals, half Beaver animals.
> 
> 
> 
> My bad....I thought he was shooting them off property near Angle. Where did I get that idea from? Is Gary Allen from Angle?
Click to expand...

No he lives in Kingston, he shot 5 bulls over by Angle last year.


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## wyoming2utah

Ahhh...that's probably why I thought Angle. I think the issues with this guy, though, go far deeper than this year or last year....


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## PBH

Iron Bear said:


> And on another note I noticed this thread and another about hazing deer and elk off private land in Paiute county. Maybe my idea of a Hardware ranch style facility on the Elbow Ranch WMA just outside of Marysvale would be a win win win. I can envision folks coming in droves to look at 350" bulls wintering by the dozens. After all wasn't the catalyst for Hardware the protection of ranchers land in Cache Valley?
> 
> It may also help concentrate elk opening up more elk free winter range for deer on Monroe.


I'm assuming that the elbow ranch is the area the DWR bought numerous years ago along with the water rights to Manning Meadow? If so, good luck. The whole reason all of that (water rights, and the ranch) went up for sale is because that land is about as sterile as a tiger musky. You can't grow crops on it, including alfalfa. I believe that the DWR tried raising alfalfa on it for a few years before they did exactly as the previous land owner: gave up trying.


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## ramrod

i just cant help but wounder what *** **** would feel like if it where legal to shoot his cattle if they where caught on state land damaging state property.


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## klbzdad

ramrod said:


> i just cant help but wounder what *** **** would feel like if it where legal to shoot his cattle if they where caught on state land damaging state property.


That's the problem...he doesn't care because it isn't legal. He's too simple minded to think like the rest of us. Open range laws allow him to cut them loose and there's little to nothing anyone can do to them. Cattle almost have more rights to life than humans thanks to those antiquated laws. They do have their place but need to be updated as do trespass laws and so does the law allowing landowners to to kill wildlife for depredation if notice is returned by DWR that a mitigation plan is being offered. The rules and laws have to work together better to protect both landowners and wildlife. In this case, Mr. Country Singer gets to shoot away until the value of the animals exceed the value of the damage they caused before he can be charged with anything. Who knows if he's already at that point yet, he's a nut with a gun and I'm told his spawn isn't much better than he is, but there are some in his family that do NOT like what he is doing.


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## brigb

The land that he just shot the last group of elk and deer is in marysvale.


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## PBH

Brig -- are you sure? I was under the impression that this was happening in Angle (north end of Otter Creek Reservoir).


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## wyoming2utah

The rumor mill is swirling....I have heard that Gary Allen's corrals burned down Saturday night. Anyone else heard this rumor?


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## PBH

my bad -- Brig was correct: Marysvale, NOT Angle.


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## #1DEER 1-I

PBH said:


> Brig -- are you sure? I was under the impression that this was happening in Angle (north end of Otter Creek Reservoir).


No, he killed 5 bull elk out by Angle last year, this year it is just outside of Marysvale.



wyoming2utah said:


> The rumor mill is swirling....I have heard that Gary Allen's corrals burned down Saturday night. Anyone else heard this rumor?


I haven't heard that, who told you this?


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## aimtokill

This is truly a disgrace. As you all assemble as a lynch mob on an afternoon and defile a man's character and his intentions, his stand on wildlife issues, really are you as uneducated as you sound. Just curious, are you all as sweet and innocent as you pretend, because you sure are throwing a lot of stones. Should your information be put online for radicals to hunt your families down and threaten your children and livelihood? How many of you would think twice about who has you in the crosshairs. If its jerks like you that are packing, well its no wonder why the world wants to rid you of your guns. I also ponder why you don't have a job...or a life. Are you being funded by the government’s welfare checks or like this man just trying to make a living? Just get facts straight. Question to all of you real wildlife enthusiast How can you tell if the animals where trophy bulls aren't they just growing horns. For your information if you want to reduce the elk population shoot the females. Really just get a life!


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## wyoming2utah

aimtokill said:


> As you all assemble as a lynch mob on an afternoon and defile a man's character


Sorry bud, but Gary Allen did that all on his own....we didn't need to do that!

And, as for making a living....hmmm, seems to me that the money I am earning and paying to the government in taxes is doing a good job of subsidizing his living. How much money was it that he has been paid by not only the DWR in depredation but by the government in subsidies? Maybe when Gary Allen bought that land 7 years ago he should have looked up at the mountain and realized that he was planning on farming in deer and elk winter range....and shouldn't have been so dang surprised to have these issues!


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## aimtokill

If you want to know that question ask him? He doesn't sound that scary. 
Seven years ago he bought the property. He has the rights to protect what is his. If you owned the land then you could have a say it in. Until then worry about what happens within your own property lines.


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## wyoming2utah

How about the next time his cows cross onto my property lines (public land WMAs) without permission, I just follow his example and shoot the damage causing animals?


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## aimtokill

I am sure that he grazing rights or the animals wouldn't be there. I guess if you follow the proper procedures and have the guts to go ahead!


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## aimtokill

Its so easy to make threats when you hide behind Anonymity!


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## wyoming2utah

aimtokill said:


> I am sure that he grazing rights or the animals wouldn't be there. I guess if you follow the proper procedures and have the guts to go ahead!


Wrong buddy....that's what ticks me off. He has had his cows on WMAs and on public land where they are not supposed to be. He is still ticked off at the DWR because they bought the land in Kingston Canyon out from under him and because of that anger he has put his cows on that land without grazing rights...now, as a payback, he is shooting deer and elk and not working with the DWR to solve the problem. He is a hypocrite by his own actions...


----------



## aimtokill

Not working with the DWR... Really? According to earlier posts the DWR has been involved since the beginning. They were given notice and nothing happened. The DWR is at fault, they should have taken care of the problem before it ever happened. There had to be papers filed or the gentleman would be in jail!


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## klbzdad

aimtokill said:


> Not working with the DWR... Really? According to earlier posts the DWR has been envolved since the beginning. They were given notice and nothing happened. The DWR is at fault, they should have taken care of the problem before it ever happened. There had to be papers filed or the gentleman would be in jail!


Yeah, REALLY! And you are you to come here and suggest that anyone would threaten my or anyone else's children.

If you're insinuating that we are threatening ****** kids....nothing is further from the truth. At this point, we feel sorry for anyone that has no choice but to have anything to do with him.


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## aimtokill

I'm sorry I believe that Gary Allen and his children were the ones being threatened. You don't think that there are idiots that haven't searched him for his address and have made threats to his children. So I believe that you have misunderstood, I have made no threats. I am simply saying that as you sit here and defame his character you are putting the crosshairs on his back. Not only has his name been diclosed but his location as well. So I am sorry if you read more into the post than what is intended! As for a time and a place. You name it dude. I have never backed down from a fight!


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## klbzdad

aimtokill said:


> Should your information be put online for radicals to hunt your families down and threaten your children and livelihood? I mean how many of you would think twice about who has you in the crosshairs or as you drop your kids off at school if they are going to be safe.


Between what lines? We'd all like to see **** get his but we're intelligent enough to know right from wrong and have the common decency not to provoke violence from someone who has pulled a firearm on a law enforcement officer, who has repeatedly shot wildlife despite having DWR on site to help mitigate the issue he complained about, and has done nothing to help DWR with the mitigation plan. He is doing NOTHING to help DWR help HIM. Instead, he is stealing wildlife from the people of Utah based on his angry vendetta against DWR and the Forest Service.



aimtokill said:


> I'm sorry I believe that **** ***** and his children were the ones being threatened. You don't think that there are idiots that haven't searched him for his address and have made threats to his children. So I believe that you have misunderstood. I have made no threats. I am simply saying that as you sit here and defame he character you are putting the crosshairs on his back. Not only has his name been diclosed but his location as well. And you must be reading between the lines that isn't there.


Not one single person on this site would ever threaten a child! Sportsmen might shout with bravado from the treetops but we are among some of the most ethical and family oriented people in this great country. Show me where someone has made any sort of threat toward this man's kids? Its also common knowledge now that information has been fed to the news media on where and what is happening. I suppose maybe **** should have thought about what he was doing before he pulled the trigger. Sometimes as adults we have to answer for our actions. But those actions don't include physical harm to our children and it does not and should not include his or our children. Nobody has suggested putting crosshairs on his back either....as far as I know, the only one with the perpetuity to do such a thing, is ****.


----------



## aimtokill

Do you really thing that threatening to kill his cattle is not hurting his kids. Really! This whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Do you think that the elk have been a problem just this once. I am sure that he has been fighting this issue for years. At some point in life you have to stand up for what you beleive. How many times does this have to happen. So yes you have threatened his kids. you have threated his livelihood and yes you have hurt his pocketbook. I am disgusted that the problem came to the point that he had to kill an elk but the matters should have been taken care of. Most people can look at 10 head of elk and enjoy the sight, but 300 to 1000 head is ridiculous. If the herds were properly managed then this man wouldn't have to take a stand.
As for all of you that own the wildlife I'll be sending you the bill to pay for the damages to my car from the deer that ran out in front of me. You own them and you can pay for it.


----------



## Bax*

I think this thread has run it's course and am going to lock it if we cant get back on friendly terms.

The DWR is involved, and we cant ask for more at this point. If you feel that you have some interest in the issue, contact the DWR in Cedar City and talk with them. 

If you are really concerned, help with the hazing project I posted up. That would be the best thing you could do right now.


----------



## klbzdad

wyoming2utah said:


> The rumor mill is swirling....I have heard that *** ****'s corrals burned down Saturday night. Anyone else heard this rumor?


Waiting to hear back from my source. **** is a chain smoker so it wouldn't surprise me but at this point the fire is just rumor. I have fed the story to my news stringer friends that work for the state news outlets, they are investigating and I understand a couple of GRAMA requests have been submitted to research the ongoing conflict. It would behoove a certain someone to allow DWR to haze the animals from a certain property until the migration to calving and fawning grounds is over and also to mind a certain someone's P's and Q's during the summer on another chuck of land near Otter Creek while elk are grazing on a small piece of land until DWR can do the same there too all the while maybe something can be figured out. That is unless a certain someone just wants to say miserable the remainder of his life on God's earth. Now that more than woodchuck are paying attention.....


----------



## aimtokill

klbzdad said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rumor mill is swirling....I have heard that *** ****'s corrals burned down Saturday night. Anyone else heard this rumor?
> 
> 
> 
> It would behoove a certain someone to allow DWR to haze the animals from a certain property until the migration to calving and fawning grounds is over and also to mind a certain someone's P's and Q's during the summer on another chuck of land near Otter Creek while elk are grazing on a small piece of land until DWR can do the same there too all the while maybe something can be figured out. That is unless a certain someone just wants to say miserable the remainder of his life on God's earth. Now that more than woodchuck are paying attention.....
Click to expand...

But this is not a THREAT?


----------



## wyoming2utah

aimtokill said:


> Do you really thing that threatening to kill his cattle is not hurting his kids. Really! Hmmm....no more than the actual killing of wildlife has hurt mine!This whole thing has been blown out of proportion.No, it hasn't! What this guy has done is wrong! Do you think that the elk have been a problem just this once.Nope...they were a problem before he even bought the property, and he knew that. I am sure that he has been fighting this issue for years. Fighting the issue without doing anything to mitigate it!At some point in life you have to stand up for what you beleive. I agree...and apparently so do quite a few sportsmen!How many times does this have to happen.Exactly...how many times should this guy get away with this without there being some kind of consequences? So yes you have threatened his kids. you have threated his livelihood and yes you have hurt his pocketbook. Maybe he can get a little more depredation money or find another government handout...it was estimated that to put an 8 foot fence around his land it would cost a quarter of a million dollars. He, though, refuses to help foot any of that bill, do any of the work, or spend any of his time helping fix the problem.I am disgusted that the problem came to the point that he had to kill an elk but the matters should have been taken care of. Most people can look at 10 head of elk and enjoy the sight, but 300 to 1000 head is ridiculous.No, that is normal when you live right on top of winter range for deer and elk...it has been happening for a lot longer time than he has owned that land. If the herds were properly managed then this man wouldn't have to take a stand.What is "properly managed"? To have no elk or deer at all? 10? Whether there is 100 or 1000 he is still going to have a problem with deer on that land!
> As for all of you that own the wildlife I'll be sending you the bill to pay for the damages to my car from the deer that ran out in front of me. You own them and you can pay for it. Hmmm...does that mean you should also pay for the damages that you did to my deer by hitting and killing it!


----------



## DallanC

klbzdad said:


> We'd all like to see **** get his but we're intelligent enough to know right from wrong and have the common decency not to provoke violence from someone who has pulled a firearm on a law enforcement officer


That is perhaps the dumbest statement in the whole thread. Anyone really believe a LEO would let it slide if someone drew a gun on him? No way in hell! Not in this state, not after all the recent LEO's that have been killed in the line of duty. Drawing a gun on a LEO will result in your death, end of story.

Its statements like this, and a lack of any action from the DWR that casts the entire mess into doubt.

-DallanC


----------



## klbzdad

DallanC said:


> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> We'd all like to see **** get his but we're intelligent enough to know right from wrong and have the common decency not to provoke violence from someone who has pulled a firearm on a law enforcement officer
> 
> 
> 
> That is perhaps the dumbest statement in the whole thread. Anyone really believe a LEO would let it slide if someone drew a gun on him? No way in hell! Not in this state, not after all the recent LEO's that have been killed in the line of duty. Drawing a gun on a LEO will result in your death, end of story.
> 
> Its statements like this, and a lack of any action from the DWR that casts the entire mess into doubt.
> 
> -DallanC
Click to expand...

Hate to tell ya there Dallan, he did just that last year. So thanks for the unwarranted insult. I'll reserve your award for another time Had the DWR LE not been so inexperienced, **** likely would not have gotten away with it. DWR has done their due diligence on this mess and way beyond anything anyone could expect. Money, manpower, materials, you name it. Its the measure of the man now that casts a shadow on this "MESS" not the division.


----------



## wyoming2utah

DallanC said:


> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> We'd all like to see **** get his but we're intelligent enough to know right from wrong and have the common decency not to provoke violence from someone who has pulled a firearm on a law enforcement officer
> 
> 
> 
> That is perhaps the dumbest statement in the whole thread. Anyone really believe a LEO would let it slide if someone drew a gun on him? No way in hell! Not in this state, not after all the recent LEO's that have been killed in the line of duty. Drawing a gun on a LEO will result in your death, end of story.
> 
> Its statements like this, and a lack of any action from the DWR that casts the entire mess into doubt.
> 
> -DallanC
Click to expand...

DallanC....this is true! I know it as a fact...right now the DWR has been told to stay completely away from him and the Piute County Sherriff's department is running the show.


----------



## UWN admin

[exclamation:3qorigi8][/exclamation:3qorigi8]Forum rules forbid making threats, and doing so will result in termination of user accounts. All IP addresses are logged, and we cooperate fully with law enforcement agencies. This forum in no way, shape or form supports any kind of illegal or vigilante activities, nor do we support this forum being used to make accusations and innuendoes.

Wildlife depredation is an important problem that affects interested parties in different and important ways. There are legitimate viewpoints on every side, and those viewpoints warrant discussion here. However, that discussion must be done with respect or it does not belong on this forum. Please refrain from engaging in unsubstantiated rumors, accusations and speculation about others.

This thread has gradually morphed in something that we don't want here, and we're considering locking or deleting the entire thing. Please exercise common sense and restraint when making posts!


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

Let's not lock it, t's a pressing issue. But even I agree everyone needs to calm down, including me. There are two sides, I understand that but aimtokill you need to know this particular situation and know the facts of the man, how he is, and how he's going about things before commenting like you have.


----------



## aimtokill

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Let's not lock it, t's a pressing issue. But even I agree everyone needs to calm down, including me. There are two sides, I understand that but aimtokill you need to know this particular situation and know the facts of the man, how he is, and how he's going about things before commenting like you have.


Do tell and how are personally aquainted with this gentleman? Are you directly associated with him?


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

I sent you a PM let's talk through that. Talk to me directly, I don't want to post everything on here.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I

aimtokill said:


> Question to all of you real wildlife enthusiast How can you tell if the animals where trophy bulls aren't they just growing horns. And for your information if you want to reduce the populations shoot the females. Really just get a life!


As for this, the DWR of course tested to see how old, and there was one bull a Division officer said you couldn't even fit both hands around it's basis. And one was a still packing 5X5.


----------



## Bax*

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Let's not lock it, t's a pressing issue. But even I agree everyone needs to calm down, including me. There are two sides, I understand that but aimtokill you need to know this particular situation and know the facts of the man, how he is, and how he's going about things before commenting like you have.


Thank you for recognizing that this issue is getting out of control. We obviously don't want to stiffle the topic. But we dont want threats toward ANYONE (forum member or otherwise) issued on this forum.

We are sportsmen. And we want to be unified in our hopes for wildlife. Lets keep it that way


----------



## brigb

I can say this, what I comment is in true form. I can say this the authorities are doing everything they can to prevent anymore incidents at the moment. The authorities are shooting off rounds every morning and evening to keep the animals away and so far it is working.


----------



## klbzdad

I'm just as guilty of running my mouth out of frustration as anyone, I apologize if I've offended. It is true that cooler heads will prevail in this and so far it would appear that the waters are still. So, as long as it stays that way and the animals are allowed to scurry on through with a hurried prompting from paint ball guns and bird-shot in the rear, or whatever other hazing they may be using to move them through the property, then I was told by DWR another ten days and the majority of the elk and deer will be moved away from this particular area. The entire thing, we can all agree, is pretty unfortunate with really no winners. As sportsmen, we need to be proactive and make sure we don't forget as we usually do. Contact your representatives, RAC members, and WB, and ask that changes be made to better protect wildlife.


----------



## proutdoors

Again, I am NOT taking sides.....BUT, I have to agree with aimtokill on a few points. 1)Posting the man's name and town is a 100% assurance of his family being affected! If anyone doubts this will result in his children being confronted/accused you are fooling yourselves! I have personally lived through such, and there are NO strangers in small towns, everyone knows everyone. 2)The farmer is no more subsidized than wy2ut is. How a public school teacher can complain about subsidies and 'living off others tax dollars' is beyond me! I say that as a brother to two sisters that are public school teachers. 3)Making threats about killing livestock is BEYOND STUPID! If anyone were to make such threats toward my livestock, charges would be filed, take that to the bank! Then, when so much as one critter came up dead I would demand an arrest on the spot! 

Everyone needs to take a deep breath and let things work through the legal system, this isn't the 1800's and no one here is Wyatt Earp!


----------



## Bax*

Pro,

this is why we have asked that this individuals's name not be mentioned. We are not the law and if this person has broken the law, they will be tried in a court of law. 

This forum is not a lynch mob


----------



## pheaz

Good post Pro. After reading this thread all i can say is WOW. (And not a GP WOW neither). You call yourself hunters and sportmen threatening to kill cattle now wow. Give the antis more logs for there fire gents.


----------



## Bax*

pheaz said:


> (And not a GP WOW neither). .


 :lol: I like you Pheaz!


----------



## klbzdad

Wyatt Earp was pretty tough though. 

I can't speak for everyone, but while I think sheep smell REALLY bad. And I have had some really interesting encounters with Bill (he's a seven year old bovine bull with an attitude), I could never imagine harming an animal I didn't intend to harvest. I was telling a DWR staffer this afternoon about waking up to my trailer being bumped and some heavy breathing during a rain storm. I reached for my concealed firearm and when I opened the door to my trailer, there was Bill, laying under my awning, out of the rain and chewing his cud. He bent my awning support arm when he got up and left but he made one hell of a guard dog for six hours! 

I also don't know anyone in my circle of hunting or outdoor minded friends who would even bother with hurting the cattle on open range other than to do what we always do when we have kids in our camps and push them into the next open field in the pasture if they get to close. I don't think there's any debate on the benefit farmers and rancher are to wildlife. We all agree there. We can all agree wildlife do damage to that property just as I have watched Bill the Bovine run around with a purple camp chair on his head for a week before it finally fell off or caught on something somewhere. Both have the ability to do damage, its the human element I think we are attached to but are failing to separate from different sides. Sure would have been nice if **** had let DWR get up there and do what they are doing now. It might have been fun to run around with paint ball guns and bird shot while chasing our favorite quarry if we didn't have to worry about getting clobbered ourselves. Maybe on option for the future if we know this is an issue year to year? Anyone?


----------



## pheaz

:lol: :lol: BAX i fugured a few would catch it  

Back to the topic. If the citizens of this area knew this isnt the first occurance why didnt they do somethin to prevent it?


----------



## JuddCT

Bax* said:


> pheaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> (And not a GP WOW neither). .
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: I like you Pheaz!
Click to expand...

We don't need any of your lovey dovey stuff in this thread. It is about shooting cattle.


----------



## proutdoors

Bax* said:


> Pro,
> 
> this is why we have asked that this individuals's name not be mentioned. We are not the law and if this person has broken the law, they will be tried in a court of law.
> 
> This forum is not a lynch mob


But, the problem is his name WAS mentioned!!!!!

And, people on here have called for shooting livestock. This is why I made the comments.......... -Ov-


----------



## jotownkid

this is from tomorrows richfield reaper. sorry i dont like posting names but here it is in print. i looked on their site and they dont have a digital story sorry for the crappy scan.


----------



## klbzdad

Hmmmmm......guess who I get to sit across from tomorrow morning? Wonder why this story is so nice and fluffy. Let me be the first to say, I am so sorry Mr. Allen. I was wrong to condemn you and suggest that you did a **** thing wrong on your property. How dare I suggest that DWR exhausted themselves when you, sir were the one doing all the work. I stand humbled and corrected!


----------



## Bax*

proutdoors said:


> Bax* said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pro,
> 
> this is why we have asked that this individuals's name not be mentioned. We are not the law and if this person has broken the law, they will be tried in a court of law.
> 
> This forum is not a lynch mob
> 
> 
> 
> But, the problem is his name WAS mentioned!!!!!
> 
> And, people on here have called for shooting livestock. This is why I made the comments.......... -Ov-
Click to expand...

You are 100% correct Pro. As much as we tried to keep his name out.... it kept popping up.

But I was agreeing with your point #1



proutdoors said:


> Again, I am NOT taking sides.....BUT, I have to agree with aimtokill on a few points. 1)Posting the man's name and town is a 100% assurance of his family being affected!


----------



## bwhntr

proutdoors said:


> Again, I am NOT taking sides.....BUT, I have to agree with aimtokill on a few points. 1)Posting the man's name and town is a 100% assurance of his family being affected! If anyone doubts this will result in his children being confronted/accused you are fooling yourselves! I have personally lived through such, and there are NO strangers in small towns, everyone knows everyone. 2)The farmer is no more subsidized than wy2ut is. How a public school teacher can complain about subsidies and 'living off others tax dollars' is beyond me! I say that as a brother to two sisters that are public school teachers. 3)Making threats about killing livestock is BEYOND STUPID! If anyone were to make such threats toward my livestock, charges would be filed, take that to the bank! Then, when so much as one critter came up dead I would demand an arrest on the spot!
> 
> Everyone needs to take a deep breath and let things work through the legal system, this isn't the 1800's and no one here is Wyatt Earp!


+100 1/8!!! This is the very thing that irritates me on these forums. It has happened to me, to Bart, and countless others. People THINK they know the facts and start their own internet court tv for all to watch.


----------



## klbzdad

I agree with Pro's point to a degree as well. But I also believe in self accountability and the FACTS of this aren't fully represented by a small town rag's partial account of what has happened in 200 words or less. The FACTS of this particular matter are represented by one particular man's actions and how it represents that man's community. There is fault in this very situation for all parties involved but there is only one original intent and he has publicly made that intent known repeatedly. 

Had he wanted to do this discretely, he should have been proactive and worked better with DWR giving them time to respond. Killing one elk would have gotten a response from sportsmen to show up and haze them which is what started to happen until he shot deer while the biologist was with a sportsman trying to demonstrate what, when, and how to haze the animals. Now, if our good friend is so honest and hard working and law abiding, why is that DWR employees have been instructed not to have contact with him? 

Also, if forums aren't for discussing these kinds of things when they happen, then what good are they? I for one felt this was calming down and people were starting to let cards fall or were taking action by making phone calls and emailing those who could make a difference. Just as I would never really ruin a grazing cage site that would have a huge effect on grazing permits does anyone here really believe anyone on this forum is out to kill his cattle or him? The guy shouldn't have acted like it was the 1800's if he didn't want an 1800's response.


----------



## aimtokill

klbzdad said:


> Hmmmmm......guess who I get to sit across from tomorrow morning? Wonder why this story is so nice and fluffy. Let me be the first to say, I am so sorry Mr. Allen. I was wrong to condemn you and suggest that you did a **** thing wrong on your property. How dare I suggest that DWR exhausted themselves when you, sir were the one doing all the work. I stand humbled and corrected!


Yes how dare you condem another and once again ON HIS PROPERTY. And yes how dare you suggest the DWR exhausted themselves. You don't understand this problem could have been prevented if they had exhausted themselves. They had 72 hours. Sometime within the 72 hours why didn't they show up. TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.


----------



## klbzdad

aimtokill said:


> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm......guess who I get to sit across from tomorrow morning? Wonder why this story is so nice and fluffy. Let me be the first to say, I am so sorry Mr. Allen. I was wrong to condemn you and suggest that you did a **** thing wrong on your property. How dare I suggest that DWR exhausted themselves when you, sir were the one doing all the work. I stand humbled and corrected!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes how dare you condem another and once again ON HIS PROPERTY. And yes how dare you suggest the DWR exhausted themselves. You don't understand this problem could have been prevented if they had exhausted themselves. They had 72 hours. Sometime within the 72 hours why didn't they show up. TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.
Click to expand...

I was being facetious. I'm also not going to respond to you anymore because it doesn't do any good to argue with someone who's motives are clearly to antagonize. Hope the weather treats you well in Wyoming. Have a great day!


----------



## wyoming2utah

proutdoors said:


> Again, I am NOT taking sides.....BUT, I have to agree with aimtokill on a few points. 1)Posting the man's name and town is a 100% assurance of his family being affected!


So, then what? No names should ever be used on this site because it will affect their family? BS! This man's actions affected his family...his actions! If he didn't want to face consequences, he should have thought more about his actions. No one as far as I can see claimed that he broke the law, people are upset about his actions--killing elk and deer. That is a fact. I think this fear about using his name is stupid....


proutdoors said:


> 2)The farmer is no more subsidized than wy2ut is. How a public school teacher can complain about subsidies and 'living off others tax dollars' is beyond me! I


Again, BS! My pay is based on the work I do for the public and the school district...you are talking about a private landowner who is subsidized and does NOT work for the government--big difference....saying that government employees are subsidized for their work is ridiculous.


proutdoors said:


> 3)Making threats about killing livestock is BEYOND STUPID! If anyone were to make such threats toward my livestock, charges would be filed, take that to the bank! Then, when so much as one critter came up dead I would demand an arrest on the spot!


First of all, no threats were made. What was made was the point of hypocrisy by MR. Allen...yes, I said it again! He is a hypocrite because he is killing wildlife for the damage they are doing, yet, at the same time, he has been a problem when it comes to grazing his lifestock on public land where they are not supposed to be. IF I were to follow his example, it should be ok for me to kill his cattle...call that what you want, but it is hypocrisy!


----------



## wyoming2utah

klbzdad said:


> I agree with Pro's point to a degree as well. But I also believe in self accountability and the FACTS of this aren't fully represented by a small town rag's partial account of what has happened in 200 words or less. The FACTS of this particular matter are represented by one particular man's actions and how it represents that man's community. There is fault in this very situation for all parties involved but there is only one original intent and he has publicly made that intent known repeatedly.
> 
> Had he wanted to do this discretely, he should have been proactive and worked better with DWR giving them time to respond. Killing one elk would have gotten a response from sportsmen to show up and haze them which is what started to happen until he shot deer while the biologist was with a sportsman trying to demonstrate what, when, and how to haze the animals. Now, if our good friend is so honest and hard working and law abiding, why is that DWR employees have been instructed not to have contact with him?
> 
> Also, if forums aren't for discussing these kinds of things when they happen, then what good are they? I for one felt this was calming down and people were starting to let cards fall or were taking action by making phone calls and emailing those who could make a difference. Just as I would never really ruin a grazing cage site that would have a huge effect on grazing permits does anyone here really believe anyone on this forum is out to kill his cattle or him? The guy shouldn't have acted like it was the 1800's if he didn't want an 1800's response.


Good post...!


----------



## aimtokill

klbzdad said:


> Also, if forums aren't for discussing these kinds of things when they happen, then what good are they? I for one felt this was calming down and people were starting to let cards fall or were taking action by making phone calls and emailing those who could make a difference. Just as I would never really ruin a grazing cage site that would have a huge effect on grazing permits does anyone here really believe anyone on this forum is out to kill his cattle or him? The guy shouldn't have acted like it was the 1800's if he didn't want an 1800's response.


In today's world an 1800's response should have you arrrested for a death threat (GET A ROPE as mentioned by others) or at least a loss of your own hunting right. When you threaten a man, or his cattle there should be repercussions.


----------



## wyoming2utah

aimtokill said:


> Yes how dare you condem another and once again ON HIS PROPERTY. And yes how dare you suggest the DWR exhausted themselves. You don't understand this problem could have been prevented if they had exhausted themselves. They had 72 hours. Sometime within the 72 hours why didn't they show up. TOO LITTLE TOO LATE.


Hmmm...the DWR did show up; did you want them to stay there 24-7? Should the DWR surround all private lands 24 hours a day to make sure that no wildlife walk on to private property?

The courts have ruled time and again that states have no legal obligation or liability when it comes to damage done by wildlife. In Utah and other states legislation has been passed requiring state agencies to work with landowners to help compensate them for damages and to help mitigate the problems. State lawmakers have required the DWR to work with landowners to solve problems. The problem with this particular landowner is that he doesn't want to work with the DWR or the state...the funny thing in this situation is if the DWR were actually to spend the 250,0000 or so dollars it would take to fence his property, it would funnel the elk and deer on to his neighbor's land. What then would they have accomplished? Nothing...the same problem would exist just somewhere else. The bottom line is that these animals are WILD...they go where they want when they want to. Believing that the DWR--or anyone for that matter--can completely keep wild animals from entering private property is stupid.

The man MAY very well be within his rights (that is yet to be determined)...but that doesn't mean for a second that what he did was right!


----------



## wyoming2utah

aimtokill said:


> When you threaten a man, or his cattle there should be repercussions.


Yeah...in this state even if I take a picture of his cattle I am breaking the law! :roll:


----------



## aimtokill

klbzdad said:


> I was being facetious. I'm also not going to respond to you anymore because it doesn't do any good to argue with someone who's motives are clearly to antagonize. Hope the weather treats you well in Wyoming. Have a great day!


Spoken like a true smart @$$. Wyoming sends their love.


----------



## aimtokill

wyoming2utah said:


> [Hmmm...the DWR did show up; did you want them to stay there 24-7? Should the DWR surround all private lands 24 hours a day to make sure that no wildlife walk on to private property?
> 
> The courts have ruled time and again that states have no legal obligation or liability when it comes to damage done by wildlife. In Utah and other states legislation has been passed requiring state agencies to work with landowners to help compensate them for damages and to help mitigate the problems. State lawmakers have required the DWR to work with landowners to solve problems. The problem with this particular landowner is that he doesn't want to work with the DWR or the state...the funny thing in this situation is if the DWR were actually to spend the 250,0000 or so dollars it would take to fence his property, it would funnel the elk and deer on to his neighbor's land. What then would they have accomplished? Nothing...the same problem would exist just somewhere else. The bottom line is that these animals are WILD...they go where they want when they want to. Believing that the DWR--or anyone for that matter--can completely keep wild animals from entering private property is stupid.
> The man MAY very well be within his rights (that is yet to be determined)...but that doesn't mean for a second that what he did was right!


The DWR is using this man as a fall guy for the lack of their own actions. As stated by his so called neighbors they don't mind the wildlife on their property send them on over. As far as this gentleman, he was within the legal realm of the law. Whether it was right or wrong that is yet to be decided.


----------



## wyoming2utah

aimtokill said:


> The DWR is using this man as a fall guy for the lack of their own actions. As stated by his so called neighbors they don't mind the wildlife on their property send them on over. As far as this gentleman, he was within the legal realm of the law. Whether it was right or wrong that is yet to be decided.


 :roll:


----------



## proutdoors

klbzdad said:


> Had he wanted to do this discretely, he should have been proactive and worked better with DWR giving them time to respond.


Good hell, he gave them SEVENTY TWO HOURS. If they can't respond within that time frame, it is likely they had NO intention of responding at all!


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## Iron Bear

I really don't get the big deal. Honestly who cares if a rancher kills a few dozen deer and elk on their land. Will it really effect the deer and elk herds in these areas? 

Is it because he didn't pay the DWR for them? Or wait 16 yrs for a tag? 

Is it because he isn't covered in fur and walk on all fours?

Is it because he is not making a business out of killing wildlife? 

He used a riffle instead of hitting them with his truck? 

Wy2, is it because he is stealing cougar food in your mind? Cant you easily chalk up this guys kills as compensatory and defend his actions instead. 

Come on guys get some perspective here. This is like freaking out about your water bill when you have a 25% mortgage on your home. Sure the water bill is too high and that sucks. But in reality if you fixed the problem with your mortgage you wouldn't even care about your water bill. Or maybe some of you would actually. :lol:


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## proutdoors

wyoming2utah said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I am NOT taking sides.....BUT, I have to agree with aimtokill on a few points. 1)Posting the man's name and town is a 100% assurance of his family being affected!
> 
> 
> 
> So, then what? No names should ever be used on this site because it will affect their family? BS! This man's actions affected his family...his actions! If he didn't want to face consequences, he should have thought more about his actions. No one as far as I can see claimed that he broke the law, people are upset about his actions--killing elk and deer. That is a fact. I think this fear about using his name is stupid.... No names should be posted unless there is proof of wrong doing, or at a minimum charges have been filed making his name public record. Being tried and convicted by the likes of you is NOT the consequences one should expect for acting within their LEGAL rights! Ruining a man, causing grief to his family is not only STUPID, it is irresponsible and NOT consistent with being a quality human being!
> 
> 
> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2)The farmer is no more subsidized than wy2ut is. How a public school teacher can complain about subsidies and 'living off others tax dollars' is beyond me! I
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, BS! My pay is based on the work I do for the public and the school district...you are talking about a private landowner who is subsidized and does NOT work for the government--big difference....saying that government employees are subsidized for their work is ridiculous. EVERY government employee is subsidized! How can you with any semblance of intellectual honest assert otherwise? You can lie to yourself on the subject, but facts are facts! My taxes should NOT being going toward paying you to 'educate' kids in Sevier County, thus I am subsidizing YOU! I realize you are a big government supporter, but that doesn't change a **** thing about this.
> 
> 
> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3)Making threats about killing livestock is BEYOND STUPID! If anyone were to make such threats toward my livestock, charges would be filed, take that to the bank! Then, when so much as one critter came up dead I would demand an arrest on the spot!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First of all, no threats were made. What was made was the point of hypocrisy by *** ****...yes, I said it again! He is a hypocrite because he is killing wildlife for the damage they are doing, yet, at the same time, he has been a problem when it comes to grazing his lifestock on public land where they are not supposed to be. IF I were to follow his example, it should be ok for me to kill his cattle...call that what you want, but it is hypocrisy! Yes, threats were made, on this very thread! Either you are in denial, you have poor reading comprehension skills, or you are clueless......which is it? And, if you feel you have the RIGHT to shoot his cattle, and you believe you would be operating within the LEGAL realm, go for it. As my one boss at the phone company used to tell people when they said they would remove phone poles from their property because they disagreed with the right of ways; "Do whatever you think you can afford."
Click to expand...


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## proutdoors

Iron Bear said:


> I really don't get the big deal. Honestly who cares if a rancher kills a few dozen deer and elk on their land. Will it really effect the deer and elk herds in these areas?
> 
> Is it because he didn't pay the DWR for them? Or wait 16 yrs for a tag?
> 
> Is it because he isn't covered in fur and walk on all fours?
> 
> Is it because he is not making a business out of killing wildlife?
> 
> He used a riffle instead of hitting them with his truck?
> 
> Wy2, is it because he is stealing cougar food in your mind? Cant you easily chalk up this guys kills as compensatory and defend his actions instead.
> 
> Come on guys get some perspective here. This is like freaking out about your water bill when you have a 25% mortgage on your home. Sure the water bill is too high and that sucks. But in reality if you fixed the problem with your mortgage you wouldn't even care about your water bill. Or maybe some of you would actually. :lol:


Excellent post, some very good points touched on, IMHO!


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## mack1950

i dont know other than replacing fence just what all damage the elk are doing at least were im located the alfalfa is just starting to show good growth and the locals are not complaining about the locale elk herds other than refencing which i agree is a big pain. the problem i have is the numbers of animals he s shot and wasted thats the biggest problem i have pro know s me well and i guess is what im tring to say is i concure that the dwr may have been dragging there feet but the call for help had gone out and if like they say the herd s was in transet and moving through other than fencing (which i hate with a passion) i beleive with more coroperattion from the land owner the problem could have been solved at least it should have been given the chanch to work from my end it looks like mr landowner is taking advantage of a legal loophole to do just what he want a be damned to anyone else.


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## klbzdad

proutdoors said:


> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had he wanted to do this discretely, he should have been proactive and worked better with DWR giving them time to respond.
> 
> 
> 
> Good hell, he gave them SEVENTY TWO HOURS. If they can't respond within that time frame, it is likely they had NO intention of responding at all!
Click to expand...

PM sent....


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## hrsmnhntr

It disturbes me that some here are defending this moron and condemning the DWR saying they weren't doing anything. They were working with him. There is one biologist in the area. He also has other resposibilities He can only work 40 hours a week. He was asking for help from volunteers, including from this site. You don't know both sides of the story either and you you act like you are experts.. You may have been treated wrong in the past. That doesn't mean he is. If you were local and knew him I am pretty sure you would have a different oppinion. 
I have several freinds that work for the DWR. They do it because they love the state, wildlife and the outdoors. It is pretty much a thankless job, and they make less money than most of you. You shoudn't ASSume that because he shot the animals they weren't doing their job. Talk about hypocrisy.


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## klbzdad

I'm going to be jumping ahead of BAX on this one but for those who can give some time right away:

The Division of Wildlife Resources is looking for Dedicated Hunters/ Volunteers ASAP to assist with fencing in Kingston Canyon Public Access Site, Piute County. Looking for someone either May 3rd or May 9th. For more information on this project or to sign up for this project, please contact Mark Kurzen @ 435-559-3482 or 435-865-6100


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## aimtokill

hrsmnhntr said:


> It disturbes me that some here are defending this moron and condemning the DWR saying they weren't doing anything.
> You don't know both sides of the story either and you you act like you are experts.
> You may have been treated wrong in the past. That doesn't mean he is. If you were local and knew him I am pretty sure you would have a different oppinion.
> Talk about hypocrisy.


Sounds like you have a personal vendetta with this man. I'm not sure you should be classified as an expert either unless you want to reveal your credentials!


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## PBH

proutdoors said:


> No names should be posted unless there is proof of wrong doing, or at a minimum charges have been filed making his name public record.


I don't get it.

First off, it is public knowledge that *** did this. He is not denying it. It is in at least 1 local newspaper. Authorities have acknowledged what happened. WHY IN THE WORLD CAN WE NOT USE HIS NAME???

What's wrong with this place??

You may not agree with what he did, or you may agree with him. It doesn't matter. There are certain indisputable facts that are relevant to this discussion, and leaving those facts out is just plain dumb. Those facts are:

1. elk were shot out of season by a rancher
2. that ranchers name is Gary -- this is FACT, not hearsay. *** has acknowledged that he did this. 
3. authorities are investigating the situation.

Why can't people use his name??


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## brigb

This farmer/rancher is not on trial here for his character or the legality of the actions. What he did is completely legal. He is not a BAD person because of this, he just made a CHOICE that WE ALL don't agree with. Would I choose to do this, no, but he felt he had to shoot them (he will tell you he HATES them). 

DWR asks if you would call and give them 72 hours, he doesn't have to call at all. Elk are very destructive in large numbers or when they get into your haystack, but there is compensation for the damage that they do and that the deer do as well. 

All I can say is karma is a [email protected]#&$! I will be sitting on my side of my neighbors fence and wait for it to come and bite him in the [email protected]@ and smile. It's a coming.


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## klbzdad

brigb said:


> DWR asks if you would call and give them 72 hours, he doesn't have to call at all. Elk are very destructive in large numbers or when they get into your haystack, but there is compensation for the damage that they do and that the deer do as well.


Actually, by law he is required to contact them immediately and give them notice.

First Step:
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE23/htm/23_16_000300.htm

Second Step:
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE23/htm/23_16_000301.htm

Departmental Procedures:
http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules/R657-44.php


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## hrsmnhntr

Sounds like you have a personal vendetta with this man. I'm not sure you should be classified as an expert either unless you want to reveal your credentials![/quote]
Vendetta???


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## #1DEER 1-I

It's getting out of hand here. Pro, the DWR did respond within 72 hours of the situation, in fact Vance responded within 24 hours of the situation. Vance has spent most of his 8 hour days working on this case in the last 2 weeks, but he does have other obligations. He's took much personal time to teach volunteers how to haze the animals, and has stayed up until 5:30 in the morning dragging elk off ***'s fields, and then again late into the night carrying deer off his fields that a volunteer I know was right by him when *** shot the deer right as Vance was showing the volunteer how to haze the animals. *** was shooting right toward Vance and the volunteer, and he called Vance right after (couldn't he have called him before shooting the animals?) personally I think a warning should have to be given each and every time he decides he's going to shoot the animals. The paper story makes him sound like a good guy. He's put hundreds of hours into farming, not into keeping wildlife off his field, all he's doing is making one phone call when he pulls the trigger to deal with the situation, he's done nothing to work with the DWR or to stop the animals from coming on his property. And the sheriffs statement is so good because that's Mr. **** cousin, not because he really is as fluffy and nice of guy as that story makes him sound. Call Vance up and ask him his real opinions on the situation and how frustrating this must be, I gurantee you he'll agree this guy is within his rights, but he won't agree he's working with the DWR or trying to solve the problem, he's just creating another one.


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## Grandpa D

I am going to lock this now.
There are legal issues to the Forum when we allow something like this to go on. I'm sorry to do it but it is best for the Forum and all of our members.

Please don't take it up again in a different thread. We just can't have this topic discussed here any longer. Thank you all for understanding our position,
Grandpa D.


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## Bax*

Please feel free to visit One-Eye's forum for more discussion:

http://oneye.forumotion.com/


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