# New pups available



## ERDA (Sep 13, 2007)

Just wanted to share this with everyone. Our good friend at http://www.snakeriverretrievers.com has a new litter of pups and one more soon to arrive. These are some very well bred pups and would make a great addition to anyone's family and hunting blind. Thanks and enjoy.
PM me with any questions.


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## ERDA (Sep 13, 2007)

Web page has been updated.


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## LickinLips (Oct 28, 2008)

That looks like a great time up there! I am glad I saw this post, I am new to the site and don't want to bombard this post, but I am an avid duck hunter (foot soldier) and I have had many instances that a dog would have produced a better batch of birds to join me on the ride home. After countless hours of begging/pleading with my wife, I have finally convinced her to let me pick up a pup. I am completely new to the dog world as far as what to look for and how to go about picking a pup! I have read these posts and it seems like everyone is happy with this retriever outfit. What is your main concern to look for as far as picking out a dog (i.e color, health, hips, akc registration)
Did this kennel meet all those needs? Also, does anybody else have any input on other breeders? (I would like to stay in the N.Utah area)


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## jbauer (Jul 28, 2008)

LickinLips said:


> That looks like a great time up there! I am glad I saw this post, I am new to the site and don't want to bombard this post, but I am an avid duck hunter (foot soldier) and I have had many instances that a dog would have produced a better batch of birds to join me on the ride home. After countless hours of begging/pleading with my wife, I have finally convinced her to let me pick up a pup. I am completely new to the dog world as far as what to look for and how to go about picking a pup! I have read these posts and it seems like everyone is happy with this retriever outfit. What is your main concern to look for as far as picking out a dog (i.e color, health, hips, akc registration)
> Did this kennel meet all those needs? Also, does anybody else have any input on other breeders? (I would like to stay in the N.Utah area)


LickinLips, I'd HIGHLY recommend asking this breeder in particular if the Sire and Dam has been tested for EIC. I can't tell you how hard it is bringing up a pup (vet costs, food, training gear, time, etc.) having the pup collapse a year later, receiving results back from U of M stating that your dog is EIC AFFECTED and being told that you shouldn't run your dog anymore.


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## gunrunner (Feb 1, 2008)

jbauer said:


> I'd HIGHLY recommend asking this breeder in particular if the Sire and Dam has been tested for EIC.


Is your pup out of these lines???????


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## Ironman (Sep 7, 2007)

The website says they have a EIC guarantee. Looks like they are not EIC affected.


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## JBH (Oct 30, 2008)

I still wouldn't do it with just a gaurantee; I want to see that the litter is clear. Let me paint the picture for you: You buy a dog from this litter, not tested but has the gaurantee, you get attached to this dog and put hours of work and money into it, you find out the dog is affected and call the breeder, he gives you half the money back and now the dog that you love and worked so hard to get where you want it, can't do what it was breed to do and loves to do.....retrieve. Personal experience, get a litter that is tested.


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## LickinLips (Oct 28, 2008)

I have asked around about EIC (as I knew nothing about this until yesterday) and from what I have heard and read on other forums, an affected dog is something I want to avoid. JBH, brought something to my attention, on the website their is a guarantee for this, but I can't find any results. Does anyone of you who have purchased a dog from these guys know any info on this? Also, if you could point me in the direction of other litters that would be great! 

I am going to call these guys and find out for myself on this matter. I really didn't know there was this much to buying a pup, but I am glad I have all of your help and input!

Thanks :lol: :lol:


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## rizz (Aug 29, 2008)

Lickinlips i bought my dog from snake river retrievers in march. It is a great dog. I found a better litter from a guy named dave he has four males left. You can find him under labinc. Good luck on your dog.


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## Travis R. Bullock (Jul 25, 2008)

LickinLips said:


> I really didn't know there was this much to buying a pup, but I am glad I have all of your help and input!


A lot of people don't and unfortunately buy animals without any health clearances from backyard breeders! Labs are cursed with multiple genetic defects and ideally should be screened with as many of the following health certs as possible; OFA or PennHip Hips, OFA Elbows, OFA Patella, OFA Cardiac, OFA Thyroid, Optigen PRA, CERF, EIC & CNM.

I am not suggesting any of the above mentioned litters are backyard bred or a poor choice, just putting some information out there. Good luck with your search for your new 12-15 year family member.


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## id hntr (Oct 31, 2008)

Just as a heads up out there. I just noticed this post and these are my dogs. So this is first hand. Please give more than half the info, when trying to persuade people elsewhere in order to support your litters. I offer a replacement guarantee. 1/2 price back is if the owner thinks the dog does just fine hunting and wants to keep it. Their choice. For example there actually is a NFC that appears to be afflicted and the top derby producer as well. Yet, Somehow they can still be the top dogs in the country???? Apparently the EIC is not holding them back too much and I am sure the owners want to keep their dogs! As far as better litters, friends will post for friends.... I have had dogs from great lines that have turned out bad, and not so good lined litters that are awesome. You do your research and pick traits that you want. Some people want a dog that is a fireball and bouncing off the wall. Others want great hunting dogs and family pets. And by the way, just sent off two puppy tests to U of MN for EIC testing from my litter. Both came back EIC clear.


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## LockedFlockSage (Mar 26, 2008)

Bottom line on EIC, If you want to avoid it, pick a litter with test results handy for the dam and sire from the breeder/owners. I recently picked up a pup and that coveted question of EIC came up frequently, especially as I was looking for a BLM, (EIC is most common amongst field bread BLM's). I could tell if I was interested in the pups or not at that point by the response I got from the breeder. My personal favorite was, "that test is new and inconclusive"! The only reason I think someone would say that is, they have either really gotten their dogs tested and got a postive (affected) result or they haven't tested because they are afraid of the answer they will get. The test is only $65.00, far less then the money made on a litter and more importantly a great investment in order to maintain a great reputation and uphold your name as a breeder. If you are dealing with field bred labs I think it is the responsibitly of those who are breeding to follow through on tests of this kind. 

I am not against owning a carrier, but I definitely want to rule out the possibilty of an affected dog and there is no better place to do so than the very start, before the breeding takes place.


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## Ironman (Sep 7, 2007)

LockedFlockSage said:


> .......My personal favorite was, "that test is new and inconclusive"!...


They are wrong; the gene identification test is conclusive. 
But what is not conclusive is the action of EIC itself. id Hntr's post makes that quite clear. I'm not saying EIC does not affect dogs, but it does affect some differently. How could it do that? It is obviously influenced by other genes or the environment....which then make the test...well...."inconclusive".

I'm going to come up with a genetic test that will tell if the dog will have an FC/AFC descendant within for generations. Obviously, all dogs that won't, should be spayed, neutered, or just put out of their misery! I can't wait for the money to start rolling in for my test either.


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## LockedFlockSage (Mar 26, 2008)

Ironman said:


> LockedFlockSage said:
> 
> 
> > .......My personal favorite was, "that test is new and inconclusive"!...


Iron,

Would you buy a dog from someone who told you that, or had no not taken the time to get a test done? I agree that different things, trigger different dogs, but I don't want to own one to fiqure that out!


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## jbauer (Jul 28, 2008)

Ironman said:


> LockedFlockSage said:
> 
> 
> > .......My personal favorite was, "that test is new and inconclusive"!...
> ...


You contradict yourself in your post - "the gene identification test is conclusive" then later you say "which then make the test...well...."inconclusive"". EIC manifests itself in different forms as is the case with numerous other disorders. So does that make other genetic tests for other disorders inconclusive? No. One of the major reasons for genetic testing is for prevention.

I'm also looking forward to see your genetic test hit the market.


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## Ironman (Sep 7, 2007)

The contradiction was on purpose to reflect the state of the test.
There are several monogenic tests that are valuable, EIC is said to be monogenic, yet the evidence of affected dogs that never have an episode and are worked daily at a professional level suggests that it may be polygenic or that environmental influences can lessen or increase the disorder to the point that genetics is not of importance. A monogenic test for a polygenic trait is, by it nature inconclusive. 

I would not be worried about the EIC status if the dog I bought came from a breeding that EIC was not tested for or, if EIC was there, it was never exhibited. That's what we all did up to a few months ago.

The utter irony of all these genetic tests is that the line bred field lines (and show lines to some extent) are all going to the crapper. Everyone wants a piece of the #1 dogs in their pedigrees (Lean Mac for example) but in the end we find out that this great dog or that great dog was a carrier of a disease that we now all have to deal with because everyone has that #1 dog in their lines. It is sad to think that backyard breeders are going to end up with the healthiest lines as they, mostly ignorant to top lines, have in many cases bred true non-descript recombinant litters that are not going to have the vast array of problems that we are seeing in the heavily line bred trial lines.


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## North Mountain (Sep 19, 2007)

One of the favorite advertising ploys of backyard breeders is to advertise "Champion Lines". These pups will often have some of the same dogs in the "backyard" bred dog as you will see in good breedings. The difference is genetic and perfomance testing has not been done.

Sure a small pecentage of affected dogs have not shown symptoms but most do. They recently did a follow up of some affected dogs from the study. There were 8 affeceted dogs that had not shown symptoms at the time of the study. Out of the eight, 5 have now shown symptoms. 

Why take a chance on getting an affected pup when if you buy a pup from a litter with at least one clear parent your risk is mitigated? If you truly want to be a reputable breeder then test your breeding stock. If you want to support the reputable breeder then do your homework and buy from tested stock. 

I do not have any puppies available so I am not trying to take sales away from the origanal poster but I do believe that the guarantee is not as good as just having a pup that has come from a clear parent. Who here wants to get a pup only to find out just as it comes of age to compete or hunt that it cannot perform without risking the dog's life. Many dogs have died from this disorder. A simple blood test that takes only 3 weeks and costs only $65. Why not do it?

FYI, this disorder is also showing up in show lines as well.


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## jbauer (Jul 28, 2008)

+1

As an owner of an EIC affected dog, I cannot stress enough to all breeders (including you backyard breeders) to PLEASE test your dogs for CNM, EIC, etc.. I truly hope that you have tested the sire and dam of my pup and have contacted all of the buyers of the pups that came from my same litter, as well as all subsequent breedings that took place thereafter. I hope you can look past the quick $$$ and realize the dramatic effects of something you may think is small may really not be in the end. I realize that the EIC test was not available when my pup was born nor was EIC very well known at that time. I know that this is not the breeder's fault. However, this is something that you CAN do about it now. 

If anyone is interested in knowing more about EIC in general, how I've continued to provide my EIC pup an enjoyable life, treatments, etc., feel free to PM me.


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## North Mountain (Sep 19, 2007)

jbauer,

If you had your pup was tested after the test became "official" you can submit your affected reuslts to OFA. It doesn't cost anything and can help inform folks about the carrier status of the sire & dam.


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## LockedFlockSage (Mar 26, 2008)

North Mountain said:


> One of the favorite advertising ploys of backyard breeders is to advertise "Champion Lines". These pups will often have some of the same dogs in the "backyard" bred dog as you will see in good breedings. The difference is genetic and perfomance testing has not been done.
> 
> Sure a small pecentage of affected dogs have not shown symptoms but most do. They recently did a follow up of some affected dogs from the study. There were 8 affeceted dogs that had not shown symptoms at the time of the study. Out of the eight, 5 have now shown symptoms.
> 
> ...


This is a great post, I couldn't agree with you more!!


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## id hntr (Oct 31, 2008)

Other simple tests are Hypothyroidism, hyperthyroidism, cretinism, Niddm, PRA, Cardiac, Pituitary dwarfism, xl breed, CNM, RD, elbow..... Reputable breeders must have all of these to be reputable.? Just curious how many litters in utah are there from two EIC tested parents???? Or add to that 2 cnm clear parents. CNM is 1000 times worse than EIC or some of the others listed. What about elbow OFA. Bad elbows will limit you as much as bad hips. I think most people with young dogs are slowing working to testing EIC and CNM on top of hip and eye which is good. It is just not going to happen over night. I remember when some of these other tests were the hot topic. I know some people with great dogs FC, NFC AFC, that have said enough is enough, if you want to breed to my dog then do it. I just picked up a puppy out of Cosmo (believed to be an EIC carrier) without an EIC guarantee. Why, because he was a great dog. I too am also anxiously awaiting the test that determines whether your dog will be an FC or not. Put me on the list.


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## North Mountain (Sep 19, 2007)

I hope your Cosmo pup came from a tested clear female. Then you would have no worries. If you read my post carefully I state that you want one clear parent. If you as a breeder don't want to test your females then you should look for a clear male to breed to. As far as what I would expect from a reputable breeder, the following tests would be the basics for a field bred litter. OFA Hips & Elbows, CERF, CNM & EIC. I personally have tested some of my breeding stock for PRA and done the OFA Thyroid Panel and most recently sent swabs off for the RD test. If I were a breeder of show labs I would be more likely to test for PRA than CNM. EIC is one test that breeders should be rushing to do. 40% of dogs tested are carriers. That's both field and show lines. If most breeders in Utah are not stepping up and doing these basic tests then that's too bad for the breed and for the poor person that gets an affected pup. I have to wonder, why did you test your pups and not the dam? As far as owners of NFC's that didn't test, I know of at least two NFC males that are carriers, one that was bred alot and the owner was aware that the male produced this problem. He's still being bred by unsupecting bitch owners. There is usually a reason they don't test, or acknowlage that they tested. Buyer beware.


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## LockedFlockSage (Mar 26, 2008)

id hntr said:


> Just curious how many litters in utah are there from two EIC tested parents???? Or add to that 2 cnm clear parents. CNM is 1000 times worse than EIC or some of the others listed. What about elbow OFA. I just picked up a puppy out of Cosmo (believed to be an EIC carrier) without an EIC guarantee.


You don't need two tested parents you just need one. I just picked up a pup from a Utah breeder that had results of all OFA Hips & Elbows, CNM, EIC, CERF, from one of my pups parents, which therefore ruled out any posibility of an AFFECTED pup. CARRIER status is only a worry to me if I choose to breed him, which in that case I will get him tested if I choose to do so. I have never heard of any dogs showing any signs of any disorders with only being a CARRIER (EIC & CNM). I also got a warranty! I also get an email from him monthly asking me how his pup is doing, I have been very very pleased with him. I know a guy who bought a dog out of Idaho somewhere who is AFFECTED with EIC, best thing to do when buying a pup is rule out the possibility of a result we don't want, regaurdless of the state you buy them from!


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## Ironman (Sep 7, 2007)

Not pointed at anyone in particular, just the situation generally.

In all honesty, until a breeder tests for everything, for which there is a test, they will never be an ethical breeder. Sure, a breeder who tests for 4 or 5 disorders may be more “reputable” than the guy down the road that does no testing at all, but they are not really ethical are they. An ethical breeder would NEVER, EVER, breed two dogs that may, due to their breed, possess a trait that may show up in a generation or two that would be detrimental to the dog or put hardship on the dog owners, especially if there was a test to check for it,…now would they. If you are not testing for EVERYTHING that is AVAILABLE to be tested for then you cannot call yourself “ethical” as obviously you don’t have the best interest of the dogs you produce at heart.


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

This is quite an interesting thread. I was going to just keep following it but, figure I usually have a couple cents worth to say about this type of stuff. Here are just some random thoughts from memory as I haven't read the thread again since yesterday and they are not pointed at anyone directly, just general thoughts or statements.

1) I don't think anyone on here was trying to discredit the advertised litter for promotion of their own litter. But, I do believe people were trying to (and should) educate others who are possibly less informed or educated on picking a quality dog. This is how we all get better.

2) I am not big on a guarentee on something that you are just rolling the dice on. Not testing for EIC and offering some sort of a guarentee doesn't make sense to me. I have seen this with multiple litters over the last 6-8 months so I am not pointing out this one specifically. To have a guarentee that is not controllable or from a proven theory and roll the dice whether or not that dog will be affected and show symptoms if it is affected or if they will be treatable for the dog to have a potentially good life, all the while having that family get more and more attached to that puppy as it becomes part of their life....well not for me... Granted up until the last few years, this is pretty much how things were done and still how some people operate. But, for me there is too much information available to make better choices that will make me and my pups better. 

Some of you may say that you are rolling the dice with OFA ratings too because it is never a for sure guarentee that goods will produce goods or excellent will produce excellents. But, with OFA there has been enough generations of testing and evidence that you are greatly increasing your chance of having a good hip dog by starting with good or better parents. With EIC (and CNM), there is a test that tells you black or white whether or not a dog is clear, carrier, or affected. I have no problem with carrier's, I own a CNM Carrier. But, i am going to do everything I can to not have an affected puppy, and that does not mean I just won't breed her. I likely will breed her but, to a known CLEAR stud. By breeding her to someone who was not clear or not known to be clear, I would be potentially producing puppies that may not physically be capable of doing what they were bred to do. That, in my opinion would be very irresponsible of me. That is a dice I would prefer not roll. 

2a) I do not agree that CNM is worse than EIC. They are both bad news no question but, as North Mtn said, when we are talking around 40% of the field and show labradors could be carriers of EIC, I would say its impacts are much worse!

3) There are a lot of other health clearances that are available. I personally have tried to set my standard with: OFA hips/elbows, Eye Cerf, CNM, and EIC. As I mentioned though, having an eic or cnm carrier does not mean they will not get bred but, I want to know for sure before breeding. I have bought and would buy again a cnm carrier and I would buy an eic carrier. As far as the other clearances available, I may get some of those as my young dog gets closer to potentially being bred. But, for what I am trying to produce and what I want my pups to do, I am currently very satisfied with the standards I have set for myself and my program.

4) As far as this litter goes, I only have limited info and PD and he was one incredible competitor. He is owned by quite possibly one of the very best most knowledgeable retriever people to ever own a dog in the state of Utah. Ken has trained with many professionals and learned from some of the best including Rex Carr. I know of at least two people who have trained 2-3 PD pups each who have been very impressed with those pups. From a quality standpoint, you can not go wrong with him. As far as health, I have no idea, don't know anything about his health clearances. 

5) I guess that is all I have right now or can remember from reading this yesterday. Maybe if I get time later, I will go back and read everyones post's again to see if I left any of my thoughts out.

Happy training and hunting everyone. Travis


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## id hntr (Oct 31, 2008)

My statement that CNM is worse than EIC is from a physiological standpoint. Having a background in muscle physiology and human performance, I understand, from a cellular level, the implications of both. Not just a class in college, but graduate degrees as well as lab director of a biochemistry lab and current research. I will state without a doubt that CNM is worse than EIC, from a physiological standpoint. Here is the problem with giving the EIC statistics as why EIC is worse. First stated, 40% are carriers. This is a bias statistic. Anyone with a statistics background can validate this. Many people with dogs from lines with no history of EIC are sending in tests for personal secureity. However, A great majority of people are sending in tests because their dogs come from lines that have carriers. That in itself, will increase numbers. For example, if 40% of the people that go into an AIDS clinic and get tested for AIDS come out afflicted with AIDS, does that mean 40% of the american population has AIDS. No, they just had more of a reason or suspect to get tested. So, don't get me wrong, I would like to have neither an EIC or CNM dog, but CNM practically wipes out the complete muscular system of a dog. Completely different playing field. However, I do agree that there are likely more EIC afflicted being bred than CNM afflicted, and therefore it will be a more popular and at the top of discussion for a long time, and hopefully over time, will become something that we used to have to worry about. And I also know of pups purchased recently from Montana, Utah, Idaho, and Wyoming that are afflicted (by gene status). You will find this all over for the next while due to the short availability of a validated EIC test. TS, I agree with you regarding Ken. Hands down probably the best in the state of Utah as far as success, training knowledge and and just a great guy. The reason I tested my pups was Ken has not been active in the game lately and isn't totally current on the new tests, therefore he hasn't tested PD. I gave him a heads up on my pups results. It appears that PD is EIC clear, from a statistical standpoint and there is no way that he is afflicted. However, until (if) he is tested, we can't make the "clear" statement concrete. Anyway, hopefully that answers the question of why I would test the pups and not the parent.


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## LickinLips (Oct 28, 2008)

tshuntin said:


> 2) I am not big on a guarentee on something that you are just rolling the dice on. Not testing for EIC and offering some sort of a guarentee doesn't make sense to me. I have seen this with multiple litters over the last 6-8 months so I am not pointing out this one specifically. To have a guarentee that is not controllable or from a proven theory and roll the dice whether or not that dog will be affected and show symptoms if it is affected or if they will be treatable for the dog to have a potentially good life, all the while having that family get more and more attached to that puppy as it becomes part of their life....well not for me... Granted up until the last few years, this is pretty much how things were done and still how some people operate. *But, for me there is too much information available to make better choices that will make me and my pups better. *


Wow, in the last week I have learned a lot about this sport! Their has been a lot of great advise given, and on my end, a lot of advise taken! I have recieved messages from people on here, not telling me which litter is better or what dam and sire is proven over the other, but telling me about their experiences with certain breeders and what issues they have had with their dogs! That is exactly the information I was looking for. I have looked into a couple of litters and have talked to a couple of the breeders this past week and I don't want to open a can of worms here, but the information I have recieved from some owners and the information I got from the breeder on certain topics was completely different. I have been told on several ways and things to look for when buying a pup, but their are 2 points to me that are very important, 1- Referrals, the best feedback is from someone who owns a dog from the litter you are looking into. 2- Nothing is better than test results, especially in todays world with the concern being focused around EIC and CNM, results eliminate the gamble. This is a big purchase for me, it took me months of persuading my wife to allow me pick up a pup and I want to make it right! This last post sums it up, to much information availbale to make better choices. I am still looking for a litter and all your input has definitely helped educate my decision.

Thanks,

Chet


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

id hntr, I figured afterwards that you meant cnm was worse than eic, to the dog itself that is. Agreed! Not knowing for sure if PD is a carrier or not, _why didn't/don't you test this female? _ I am about 99.999% sure that PD's Dad Ritz was a carrier. I use to own a daughter of Ritz who was a carrier and I am pretty sure it was through Ritz. Just because two of the PD pups you have are clear, as you know, doesn't mean he is clear. I also don't see Ken getting these newer tests done. But, that would not stop me from breeding to PD either, just with a clear female only.

On another note, FC AFC Wood Rivers Franchise, SHAQ, is a dog that I am very high on and that I would love to breed one of my females to or get a pup from. He has recently been reported as EIC Clear.


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## North Mountain (Sep 19, 2007)

I asked why you had tested the pups and not the dam. I know you don't have control over what the stud owner does and you have still not answered the question. I have a clear female who came from 2 carrier parents. Having a couple of clear pups does not mean that one or both parents are clear. I agree that CNM is worse than EIC. I also belive that the EIC rate is very high due to so many popular stud dogs that are carriers. It's been a real eye opener to see the list grow of those that I know are carriers. I still feel that if you are going to breed to a dog who's status is unknown, that you should make sure that your's is clear. That's just my opinion


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## North Mountain (Sep 19, 2007)

Ritz, PD and Shaq. I've had the pleasure of judging all of them and would be more than pleased to have any of them on my truck. Ritz was an amazing marker. One of the best I've ever seen. Ken Payne and PD were alway tough to beat. Kenny was a great trainer. I hope he comes back to the sport someday. I miss seeing him at the trials. I just spoke with Bill today, wished him good luck at the National. Shaq could go all the way. Travis, you better hope he doesn't or your stud fee will be going up!


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

Laura, I also think that Shaq could go all the way this year. Last time I exchanged emails with gay, she said he was very focused and running really well! No kidding about the stud fee going up. :shock: :lol: It is still pretty reasonable from what I was told but, who knows what will happen. I have been SUPER surprised for almost three years now that he has not been getting WAY more breedings than he has. He has been a top caliber dog for the last 3-4 years (over 100 aa points) and that is even with him competing against the great ones like Auggie, carbon, chopper and so many other good ones up there. The few people I have talked to that have pups of his have sure liked them it seems. Have you seen many of them? I know Mark's Rip is pretty dang nice! 

GO SHAQ in the National!! Shaq fan regards.. TS


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