# Beware Remington 6.5 Small Rifle Primers



## Airborne

So if any of you are out looking for some Small Rifle Primers to load for your .223 DO NOT BUY REMINGTON 6.5 SMALL RIFLE PRIMERS.

If you read the very small print on the box it says: _Remington does not recommend this primer for use in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington, 223 Remington, 204 Ruger, 17 Remington Fireball. Use the 7-1/2 Small Rifle Bench Rest primer in these cartridges. This 6-1/2 Small Rifle primer is primarily designed for use in the 22 Hornet._

I normally use CCI or Winchester primers but all the store had was the Remington 6.5 primers (this was a while back). I guess its my fault for not reading the fine print on the box but I bought 1000 because the dang thing said SMALL RIFLE PRIMERS in big letters. So last week I went ahead and primed 600 brass. By chance I was looking at load recipes and noticed that 223 called for Rem 7.5 primers so I discovered my mistake. Now I have a choice: solution A: Load up 600 low pressure loads and hope the primer cup doesn't rupture (um--no). Solution B: run each round through my rifle and pop each primer before de-priming. Solution C: put on my catchers gear with face shield, heavy gloves and SLOWLY de-prime 600 live primers in my press hoping they don't pop. Solution D: throw the brass away and take up a better hobby like knitting.

The good thing is I caught this before loading but I am still frustrated. Why on god's green earth would Remington produce two types of small rifle primers and not have in large letters that 6.5 are only to be used with the .22 Hornet? With the amount of folks reloading now it is really a low brow move.

I stopped at Sportsman's Warehouse in Provo yesterday and what do I see on the shelf-> about 10 bricks of Remington 6.5 primers and no notice or anything that they are only to be used for the 22 Hornet (who knew that round was so popular). They didn't have any Remington 7.5 primers. Never again will I buy a Remington primer. Anyways I thought I would try to get the word out so you don't make the same mistake I did.

Has anybody de-primed that many live primers before? Any suggestions would be super.


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## LostLouisianian

Airborne said:


> So if any of you are out looking for some Small Rifle Primers to load for your .223 DO NOT BUY REMINGTON 6.5 SMALL RIFLE PRIMERS.
> 
> If you read the very small print on the box it says: _Remington does not recommend this primer for use in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington, 223 Remington, 204 Ruger, 17 Remington Fireball. Use the 7-1/2 Small Rifle Bench Rest primer in these cartridges. This 6-1/2 Small Rifle primer is primarily designed for use in the 22 Hornet._
> 
> I normally use CCI or Winchester primers but all the store had was the Remington 6.5 primers (this was a while back). I guess its my fault for not reading the fine print on the box but I bought 1000 because the dang thing said SMALL RIFLE PRIMERS in big letters. So last week I went ahead and primed 600 brass. By chance I was looking at load recipes and noticed that 223 called for Rem 7.5 primers so I discovered my mistake. Now I have a choice: solution A: Load up 600 low pressure loads and hope the primer cup doesn't rupture (um--no). Solution B: run each round through my rifle and pop each primer before de-priming. Solution C: put on my catchers gear with face shield, heavy gloves and SLOWLY de-prime 600 live primers in my press hoping they don't pop. Solution D: throw the brass away and take up a better hobby like knitting.
> 
> The good thing is I caught this before loading but I am still frustrated. Why on god's green earth would Remington produce two types of small rifle primers and not have in large letters that 6.5 are only to be used with the .22 Hornet? With the amount of folks reloading now it is really a low brow move.
> 
> I stopped at Sportsman's Warehouse in Provo yesterday and what do I see on the shelf-> about 10 bricks of Remington 6.5 primers and no notice or anything that they are only to be used for the 22 Hornet (who knew that round was so popular). They didn't have any Remington 7.5 primers. Never again will I buy a Remington primer. Anyways I thought I would try to get the word out so you don't make the same mistake I did.
> 
> Has anybody de-primed that many live primers before? Any suggestions would be super.


I've only deprimed about a dozen or so but never had one go bang in the process. Just do the same thing you do when depriming a spent primer. I do try to go easy on it and just use as soft as possible push but even pressure push.


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## DallanC

The cup material is very thin for the weaker firing pin of the hornet. It can cause AD and slamfires if you use it in something with a free floating firing pin. Other than that, people do use it in other small calibers.

If you understand WHY its different, WHY they make a special version, you can know WHEN to use it. It has its place just like everything else.


-DallanC


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## Airborne

I am not saying it doesn't have it's place--I just think it should be called something else or have a qualifier next to it's name in big letters. What is the ratio of 22 hornet to 223 rem bullets reloaded? For reloading noobs I am guessing the 223 is one of the first a newbie chooses, do you think they have a great knowledge base? It lends itself to mistakes easily and I don't know of any other company producing something that is equally confusing. For example on the Winchester Large Pistol primers, they say in big letters next to the title that they are used for Standard and Magnum loads. Easy to read, not in fine print on the side of the box.

I know it's my mistake but I know I am not the only one.


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## mtnrunner260

I'll shoot them for you?


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## DallanC

What primer info did the data in your RELOADING manual state?

Reloading info always gives the reader 3 things: Primer type, Brass Type and Powder type/amount.


-DallanC


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## Azar

Airborne,

The Remington 6 1/2 primer is not their only "special consideration" primer. Their 1 1/2 small pistol primer is also not recommended for "high pressure rounds" such as the .40 S&W and 357 Sig.

I do not know for sure if the 9mm Luger is a cartridge also considered to be "high pressure" enough to avoid the use of that primer. I made the same mistake when I first started loading for the 9mm. They were the first small pistol primers to come back in stock locally a few years back and I bought a case of 1000. It wasn't until I got home that I noticed the warning. For me, it ended up not being such a big deal as I planned to load lower pressure lead practice rounds with them and after 300+ rounds there have been 0 issues.

While it was frustrating to make that mistake, looking back I don't really blame Remington. While I was unaware that they had special recommendations on the primers they did print the warning on the box even if I didn't notice it in time. Perhaps it could have been a bit more visible but I don't expect manufacturers to emblazon their product with huge warnings. It's a live and learn experience.

Of course, I saw my mistake before loading the first round and not after I had primed 600 cases. My dissatisfaction may have been a titch more if that had happened to me.


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## Airborne

Yeah DallanC, I know it's my mistake, said so in the first post, no need to be douchey about it. The purpose of my post was to spread information and vent a bit. I wish I was perfect (maybe you are) but I am not, but what I can do is to try to help others by laying out my mistakes for them to learn from. Please don't respond to this thread anymore. 

Thank you Azar for some good additional info, I appreciate it.


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## wyogoob

Thanks for the head's up Airborne.

Dang, I use 6 1/2s in .223....7 1/2s in .204 though.

.


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## Azar

Oh, and a quick update. After posting I decided to see if I could find Remingtons recommendations for the 1 1/2 primer in the 9mm Luger. I found a post on CastBoolits that claimed to have an email response from a Remington rep. In the response they stated:



> The 1 1/12 can be used in the 9 mm and 38. The higher pressure of the 40 and 357 require the 5 1/2. The 5 1/2 should work pretty well in all with a good solid firing pin strike.
> 
> This information also holds true with winchester and wolf i.e. magnum primers contain same amount and type of compound as standard. The difference being the hardness of the cup. CCI is a different animal, they have a harder cup and hotter priming mix.


(I'd guess the second part of this response is specifically for small pistol primers and not necessarily true for all primers in those companies lines.)


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## carp slayer

Thanks for the info. I almost bought some the other day. Won't be doing that.


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## sagebrush

thanks for the head's up airborne i just so happened to have loaded up some 1500 rounds of the S&W .40 cal. rounds instead i used upped some cci 500's i had. just wanted to get rid of them before using the rem's that i have on hand. and after looking closer i do have the 5 1/2 and 1 1/2 primers never even noticed the warning before. something I don't read on the boxes. 

I'm also loading up some 357 and 38's been using the rems 1 1/2 on the 38's and Winchester wspm on the 357. i have wondered how Remington kept their mag and regular primers different.


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## Huge29

Thanks for the heads up! That is really screwed up, good to know and be aware of! You shouldn't have to read the fine print when it states small rifle on it, I don't think they should call it that IMHO. 
My suggestion is option D and I will volunteer to help clean up all of that crap you have accumulated. I have deprimed dozens and dozens of primers usually when I decided to use my neighbors stainless tumbler after I already had some primed and I didnt have any of them go off on me. 
Thanks again for the heads up!


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## Frisco Pete

Primers come in different strengths, technically known as "brisance," a word defined as "the shattering effect of a high explosive."
Primer brisance mostly depends on the length of the flame that leaps out of the flash-hole after the firing pin whacks the primer cup. This flame can also be manipulated to last a little longer, by adding tiny particles of other flammable material to the priming compound. These differences really can effect not just accuracy but pressure.

For instance, in a very small rifle cartridge such as the .22 Hornet, a "hotter" primer might start to dislodge the bullet before the powder really gets going. Instead of a relatively gentle, slowly accelerating push, the bullet gets cruelly hit hard. This is why some Hornet fans use small pistol primers, with much milder brisance than small rifle primers.
That's reason #1 for the existence of the Rem 6 1/2 primer. Always remember that the 6 1/2 came first - before the 7 1/2 BR.

Reason #2 is different primers have different cup thicknesses for differing firearm needs and peculiarities. Handgun primers have thinner cups than rifle primers, making them easier to ignite with the typically weaker firing pin fall of handguns. Small Pistol primer cups are .017" thick, while Large Pistol primer cups are .020" thick. This is the reason using handgun primers in .22 Hornet rifle loads sometimes results in pierced primers in some guns. Obviously their substitution in the high pressure .223 Remington would not be a good idea. And that is why Remington has the 6 1/2 primer.

With Remington small rifle primers, the 6 ½ primer has a thin cup and is not recommended for higher pressure rounds like the common .223 Remington as is noted on the box. It was intended for the .22 Hornet. When Remington introduced their .17 Remington round in 1971 they found that the 6 ½ primer was not suitable to the high-pressure .17. The 7 ½ BR primer was developed for this reason. According to Remington, the 7 ½ has a 25% greater cup thickness and they state on their web site: "In rifle cartridges, the 6-1/2 small rifle primer should not be used in the 17 Remington, 222 Remington or the 223 Remington. The 7-1/2 BR is the proper small rifle primer for these rounds."

CCI/Speer Technical Services says: "The CCI 400 primer does have a thinner cup bottom than CCI 450, #41 or BR4 primers... [with] the CCI #41 primer... there is more 'distance' between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup." so that is their AR15 recommendation, although it seems like there are no complaints with using the BR4 and 450 primers by AR15 shooters and reloaders, in general. The #41 just gives you a little more safety margin for free-floating firing pins and would be the best choice for commercial reloaders who have no control over the rifles their .223 ammo is used in. The CCI 400 is much like the Rem 6 1/2 in this respect.

Another factor - call it reason #2.5 - which determines the strength of a primer cup is the work hardened state of the brass used to make the primer cup. They are made with cartridge brass (70% copper, 30% zinc), which can vary from 46,000 psi, soft, to 76,000 psi tensile strength when fully hardened. Manufacturers specify to their brass suppliers the hardness of brass desired. It is possible that a primer manufacturer could choose a harder brass in order to keep material thickness down and reduce costs. Winchester WSR primers are somewhat thin, yet seem to be resistant to slam-fires and this is likely due to this hardness factor.

Large rifle primers all appear to have the same cup thickness of .027", no matter what the type.

This also affects _pressure tolerance_. Cases that utilize small rifle primers and operate at moderate pressures(40,000 psi) should use CCI 400, Federal 200, Rem 6 1/2, or Win WSR. Such cases include 22 CCM, 22 Hornet and the 218 Bee. These primers can also used in handguns such as the 9mm., 357, etc. Other cases that use the small rifle primer can use the above primers only if moderate loads are used. Keep to the lower end of reloading recommendations.
Cases that utilize Small Rifle primers and operate at higher pressures (55,000 psi) should use CCI 450, CCI BR4, Fed 205 and Rem 7 1/2 etc.

If you're really bored I have more primer information here: http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0


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## Airborne

Thanks for the offer to help Huge29, but I will probably get it figured out myself. Frisco Pete, that is some great information, thanks so much!


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## Fishrmn

_*WHAT?!?*_ You mean every primer manufacturer makes different primers for different applications?!? I thought you could just shove any small rifle primer in any case that it fits in.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## Airborne

*WHAT?!?* You mean every internet forum has different Smart Asses for different threads?!? I thought you could just shove any bad joke in any forum thread that it fits in.


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## Fishrmn

There ya go. Gettin' all butt hurt because you didn't read the label. Then you decide that it's all Remington's fault. They try to provide you with components that do the job and you insist that it's their responsibility to keep you from misusing them. When someone agrees with your view and decides not to use Remington primers anymore, you're okay with that. But when someone points out that it's YOUR responsibility to READ the reloading manual or the label and KNOW the difference between components you get all defensive.

Sounds like a guy I know who just fills up the case with powder. He bought a bunch (actual number of pounds isn't important) of Ireco powder. It just takes a case full. No need to measure or weigh. Fortunately for him it works. With that case volume and caliber. I hope he has enough to last him forever, because if he runs out and uses a powder with a faster burn rate he'll run in to some problems. Maybe when he runs out, he'll run out. :yuck:

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## sagebrush

Fishrmn you don't have to use the same brand name as the manual states. Case's and primers can be different brand names. Unless you just wanted to be annual about it. Look at some older manual's they all say different than today's manual's even powder charges are different.


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## Fishrmn

Annual? JK.. I realize that you can use different components. But you need to realize that your results are going to be different than those that are published in the manual you're using. Pressures, velocity, heat, accuracy are going to be different than what was written in the reloading manual, to name a few. You wouldn't use the same weight or volume of the slowest versus the fastest burning powder for your case. And you SHOULD know the difference.

I've never built or designed a new chamber or caliber, but I have loaded bullets in a cartridge for which there was NO loading data in any manual. I loaded some 60 grain bullets in a .25-06. I interpolated all of the loading data for every other 25 caliber cartridge that was loaded with 60 grain bullets compared to the various bullet weights. I did the same with the .25-06 for every other available bullet weight I could find. I loaded the 60 grainers at what should have been the same ratio of powder to bullet weight increase from say a .257 Roberts with 100 grain slugs and the .25-06 with 100 grain slugs. I spent hours poring over reloading manuals and doing the math. I KNEW when I touched off that first shot that I was wildcatting a new load. By the way, if anyone has 60 grain 25 caliber bullets, I'm interested. I didn't have a chronograph back then, and now that I do, I'm curious about the velocity of the rounds. I shot more than a few Jackrabbits with them. I turned many a sagebrush into rabbitbush. I don't know if I ever hit a rabbit with them or not. There was always fur in the adjacent bushes, but never enough evidence left to prove that it came from the rabbit that I was aiming at. :shock:

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## wyogoob

Airborne said:


> *WHAT?!?* You mean every internet forum has different Smart Asses for different threads?!? *Yes, but some smart asses uhh...and Moderators really mean well, they just like to add comedic relief.* I thought you could just shove any bad joke in any forum thread that it fits in. *Yes, but no cussing, politics, sex, religion, name-calling, or anti-NRA content.*


*

see red

*Hey, do I seem a little snarky lately?

.


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## Fishrmn

All that and top of the page. :shock:

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## wyogoob

How 'bout that top of the page again! I should toss in a coupla small rifle primer pictures....a cool smilie maybe.



.


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## wyogoob

Fishrmn said:


> All that and top of the page. :shock:
> 
> ⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


Hey, I still owe ya a quarter.

.


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## Fishrmn

When I get video of wolves in Utah you'll owe me a lot more than that.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## wyogoob

Fishrmn said:


> When I get video of wolves in Utah you'll owe me a lot more than that.
> 
> ⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


Yeah, the Utah Wolf Trail Cam Program (UWTCP) award was a box of .22 shells.

We were gonna do green-tipped .223 and 5,56 zombie bullets for the 2015 award(s) until the Feds said the ammo was OK so that shortage is over. I think they're just givin' the things away now and it's not much of an incentive.

The Utah Wolf Trail Camera Program Awards Committee (UWTCPAC) is frantically working on the 2015 award(s) details. I'm thinkin' it's gonna be something big!

.


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## wyogoob

Again, thanks for the head's up Airborne.

OK, I did an inventory check. Looks like I have a bunch of brass prepped and primed with Rem 6 1/2s for .256 Winchester Mag (cast bullets) and 30 Carbine (bullets not picked out yet). I'm not worried about the .256 Win Mag cast rounds too much but slam fires on light-skinned primers could be an issue on the M1 Carbine semi-auto.

All my other small rifle primers are OK, not Rem 6 1/2s. whew 

Darn, I have a .256 Ferret....It's an M1 Carbine thingie that shoots the .256 Win Mag. Forgot about that one. I might stay away from the 6 1/2s on that gun too. Have to think about it. Those M1s are fun and cheap to plink with using cast bullets. The M1 was "it" before the AR15 came out. Lot of roads signs shot up with them back in the day. uh...and we didn't have Zombies then.

Then I read do not use Alliant 2400 powder with Rem 6 1/2 primers. That's not good for me.

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