# Sunday Play



## HighNDry

I heard that the BYU rugby team told the NCAA that if they advanced in the tournament they would not play a game on Sunday. Is this a school policy? The reason I wonder is because they claim a "higher ground" when in school but jump at the opportunity to play on Sunday once they get out of school. Just curious.


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## proutdoors

HighNDry said:


> I heard that the BYU rugby team told the NCAA that if they advanced in the tournament they would not play a game on Sunday. Is this a school policy? The reason I wonder is because they claim a "higher ground" when in school but jump at the opportunity to play on Sunday once they get out of school. Just curious.


It is a school policy. Apparently you didn't know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints owns Brigham Young University, thus the policy of not playing sports on Sundays. Once someone leaves the school and is able to decide for themselves as INDIVIDUALS they are FREE to decide whether or not to play sports on Sundays. If you can't see the HUGE difference, then there is no point trying to spell it out in detail for you. :?


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## jahan

proutdoors said:


> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that the BYU rugby team told the NCAA that if they advanced in the tournament they would not play a game on Sunday. Is this a school policy? The reason I wonder is because they claim a "higher ground" when in school but jump at the opportunity to play on Sunday once they get out of school. Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a school policy. Apparently you didn't know The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints owns Brigham Young University, thus the policy of not playing sports on Sundays. Once someone leaves the school and is able to decide for themselves as INDIVIDUALS they are FREE to decide whether or not to play sports on Sundays. If you can't see the HUGE difference, then there is no point trying to spell it out in detail for you. :?
Click to expand...

At least they are consistent with their decision not to play on sundays even if I don't agree with it.


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## Riverrat77

I don't agree with it at all... you're in the national tournament... and you want the rest of the schools to work around your ridiculous decision to not play on Sundays? I thought the NCAA was the athletic governing body for college sports, deciding things like when events are scheduled, who plays what, when and where. To cave to the demands of one school is ridiculous... you want to play college sports? Follow the same schedules as everyone else or don't play. Its really not that hard. Oh, and welcome to the real world. :roll:


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## GaryFish

BYU has never asked the NCAA to change things. They've just said that they won't play on Sunday. BYU teams have forfeited games because of this school policy. They've not asked anyone else to change anything. In many ways, this school policy hurts the school. It is one thing that will keep them out of the Pac-10. But they are OK with that.

If you want to talk about the tail wagging the dog - sports are a subsidary of the University - not the other way around. To cave to the demands of sports and go against a principle the school believes in so they can get better TV ratings is in your word, ridiculous. I respect any school that places the values of the institution above those of the media and sports fans. It is why I respect the religious standards of schools like BYU, Baylor and TCU. Academic schools like Standford, Columbia, and even Northwestern. And the service Acadamies - West Point, Annapolis and the Air Force Acadamy. More than likely, none of those schools will need to build any new buildings to host their national championship trophies. 

But then again, that isn't the point of a University now. Is it?


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## jahan

GaryFish said:


> BYU has never asked the NCAA to change things. They've just said that they won't play on Sunday. BYU teams have forfeited games because of this school policy. They've not asked anyone else to change anything. In many ways, this school policy hurts the school. It is one thing that will keep them out of the Pac-10. But they are OK with that.
> 
> If you want to talk about the tail wagging the dog - sports are a subsidary of the University - not the other way around. To cave to the demands of sports and go against a principle the school believes in so they can get better TV ratings is in your word, ridiculous. I respect any school that places the values of the institution above those of the media and sports fans. It is why I respect the religious standards of schools like BYU, Baylor and TCU. Academic schools like Standford, Columbia, and even Northwestern. And the service Acadamies - West Point, Annapolis and the Air Force Acadamy. More than likely, none of those schools will need to build any new buildings to host their national championship trophies.
> 
> But then again, that isn't the point of a University now. Is it?


Good post, I was also going to comment that BYU isn't the only school that doesn't play on Sunday. Like I said I wish they would play on Sunday, but I respect their policy. Now if they were asking everyone else to conform to it, I would have a problem with that.


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## proutdoors

GaryFish said:


> If you want to talk about the tail wagging the dog - sports are a subsidiary of the University - not the other way around. To cave to the demands of sports and go against a principle the school believes in so they can get better TV ratings is in your word, ridiculous. I respect any school that places the values of the institution above those of the media and sports fans. It is why I respect the religious standards of schools like BYU, Baylor and TCU. Academic schools like Standford, Columbia, and even Northwestern. And the service Academies - West Point, Annapolis and the Air Force Academy. More than likely, none of those schools will need to build any new buildings to host their national championship trophies.


Well said! How anyone can have issues with a PRIVATE institution having standards and holding to those standards is troublesome.


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## Riverrat77

jahan said:


> Good post, I was also going to comment that BYU isn't the only school that doesn't play on Sunday. Like I said I wish they would play on Sunday, but I respect their policy. Now if they were asking everyone else to conform to it, I would have a problem with that.


Who else Jahan? I can't think of any right off hand... although I'm sure if I looked hard enough on the internet, I could probably find something. Gary, BYU forfeiting games because of their insistance on not playing Sundays.... well, that I can respect but asking the NCAA or telling the NCAA that they won't play on Sundays, that doesn't deserve sympathy or change... its their call to make. The reason I phrased it that way is from HighNDry's original post stating that BYU informed the NCAA that they wouldn't play on Sundays if they advanced in the rugby tournament. As long as they are willing to deal with the consequences of that choice, hey, more power to em. 8)


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## Treehugnhuntr

Keep the standards, to me that's a non-issue. If I'm the NCAA, I'm not sure I see the benefit of letting them in such tournaments knowing if they made it to a scheduled Sunday game, they would not play. The potential disruption seems like it would outweigh any contribution.


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## GaryFish

Of all the collegate sports, the one that has been the toughest to deal with the Sunday thing has actually been track and field. In basketball, the NCAA has a "Thursday-Saturday" track and a "Friday-Sunday" track. They just put BYU in the "Thursday-Saturday" track. This has impacted their seating several times - they will drop BYU a seat or two to accomodate it. The baseball college world series has a similar deal which actually was the result of a BYU forfeit in the college world series in the late 60s. Its even called the "BYU rule" now. 

Track is different though, as meets go over 2-3 days. Athletes from BYU have advanced through the preliminary races, only to drop out of the final race because it carried over into Sunday. In all honesty, I've never heard BYU as an institution, complain about it. They just accept it that there may be a time when their team/athletes will not be allowed to compete for the national title. AND - the athletes know that when they choose to compete for BYU. To me, its is something that the student athletes sign up for when they go there. Just like cadets know they will be in the military for six years after graduation (Remember David Robinson). It is just part of the package they choose to accept. 

Like has been mentioned, BYU has not whined or complained or asked everyone else to accomodate them. They have just forfeited.


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## Packfish

HighNDry said:


> I heard that the BYU rugby team told the NCAA that if they advanced in the tournament they would not play a game on Sunday. Is this a school policy? The reason I wonder is because they claim a "higher ground" when in school but jump at the opportunity to play on Sunday once they get out of school. Just curious.


 You already knew the answer


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## stablebuck

Packfish said:


> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that the BYU rugby team told the NCAA that if they advanced in the tournament they would not play a game on Sunday. Is this a school policy? The reason I wonder is because they claim a "higher ground" when in school but jump at the opportunity to play on Sunday once they get out of school. Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> You already knew the answer
Click to expand...

that's the funniest part :lol: 
I personally think that teaching ADULTS that not drinking and not doing anything on Sunday are just as important as not lying and cheating has it's fair share of flaws...


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## GaryFish

What it teaches is that God is more important than sports.


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## stablebuck

stablebuck said:


> Packfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HighNDry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I heard that the BYU rugby team told the NCAA that if they advanced in the tournament they would not play a game on Sunday. Is this a school policy? The reason I wonder is because they claim a "higher ground" when in school but jump at the opportunity to play on Sunday once they get out of school. Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> You already knew the answer
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that's the funniest part :lol:
> I personally think that teaching *ADULTS* that not drinking and not doing anything on Sunday are just as important as not lying and cheating has it's fair share of flaws...
Click to expand...

please refer to the red text


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## GaryFish

I saw the red text. You miss the point all together. Many universities with special niches, are adament about the bigger picture they represent. And in all things, they make sure that remains the highest priority. Take Stanford for example. They take great pride in their academic standards. If you don't meet them, you are not allowed to go there - even if you have a great jump shot or can throw a football a mile. They know this will limit their competative ability in athletics. But those academic standards are more important to them. 

At BYU, the religious standards are more important than athletics. So adults or not - it is about the bigger picture. 

Understanding a bigger picture is actually a very interesting key to success in many different levels. The military uses that concept exceptionally well. There is a clear mission of what our armed forces are about - what they do - and why they do it. It is bigger than any individual person. But each person must see that vision - that mission. It is why countries like Switzerland require 1 year military service prior to entering college. It gives people purpose and an understanding of being part of something bigger than themselves. It is that same principle that Toyota used through TQM to completely revolutionize auto manufacturing in the 70s-80s. 

Playing on Sunday or not playing on sunday does not make anyone any more adult, or childish, or anything, than anyone else. It is a principle of the organization, that is intended to keep the organization in line with the principles that guide it. Wouldn't it be highly hypocritical if they didn't follow that? On the outside looking in without understanding of the larger picture, it can appear limiting or controlling. But when the bigger picture is understood - it is empowering. This is a true principle in religion, business, heck - even for sports teams.


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## stablebuck

I guess Ty Detmer, Steve Young, Austin Collie, Jim McMahon, John Beck, and Max Hall missed the point altogether as well...huh?
Do we really need to bring back the "Max Hall hating University of Utah football" thread???
I think "not playing sports on Sunday" is kind of a weak platform for teaching religious values...I understand that is the motivation behind it, but I think not playing sports on Sunday is kind of a miniscule lesson with much larger lessons to be garnered for a post-graduate world.


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## proutdoors

stablebuck said:


> I guess Ty Detmer, Steve Young, Austin Collie, Jim McMahon, John Beck, and Max Hall missed the point altogether as well...huh?
> Do we really need to bring back the "Max Hall hating University of Utah football" thread???
> I think "not playing sports on Sunday" is kind of a weak platform for teaching religious values...I understand that is the motivation behind it, but I think not playing sports on Sunday is kind of a miniscule lesson with much larger lessons to be garnered for a post-graduate world.


And you are entitled to such an opinion, but in truth, your opinion matters not in regards to the standards taught and upheld by the LDS faith. You also miss the forest for the trees in regards to the mentioned players. They, as INDIVIDUALS, are allowed to make the choice to work/play on Sundays. What an INDIVIDUAL does as an INDIVIDUAL when no longer a student at BYU is 100% up to that INDIVIDUAL. As for it being a 'weak' platform for teaching values, I completely disagree, and think Gary did an excellent job of detailing why it IS a strong platform for teaching values.


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## GaryFish

Clearly you don't buy into what BYU is about. Fair enough.
And if you are a hater, then why do you even care?


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## Riverrat77

stablebuck said:


> I guess Ty Detmer, Steve Young, Austin Collie, Jim McMahon, John Beck, and Max Hall missed the point altogether as well...huh?


Nah, they got the point that as long as you're not making money on Sundays, why do it? Once the Benjamins roll in, then its ok to play on Sundays because the bishop won't give you grief about huge tithing payments.  :wink:


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## Packfish

proutdoors said:


> stablebuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess Ty Detmer, Steve Young, Austin Collie, Jim McMahon, John Beck, and Max Hall missed the point altogether as well...huh?
> Do we really need to bring back the "Max Hall hating University of Utah football" thread???
> I think "not playing sports on Sunday" is kind of a weak platform for teaching religious values...I understand that is the motivation behind it, but I think not playing sports on Sunday is kind of a miniscule lesson with much larger lessons to be garnered for a post-graduate world.
> 
> 
> 
> And you are entitled to such an opinion, but in truth, your opinion matters not in regards to the standards taught and upheld by the LDS faith. You also miss the forest for the trees in regards to the mentioned players. They, as INDIVIDUALS, are allowed to make the choice to work/play on Sundays. What an INDIVIDUAL does as an INDIVIDUAL when no longer a student at BYU is 100% up to that INDIVIDUAL. As for it being a 'weak' platform for teaching values, I completely disagree, and think Gary did an excellent job of detailing why it IS a strong platform for teaching values.
Click to expand...

I played against BYU - I'm an Aggie- I dislike BYU for that reason but I respect everything said above.


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## jahan

Riverrat77 said:


> stablebuck said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess Ty Detmer, Steve Young, Austin Collie, Jim McMahon, John Beck, and Max Hall missed the point altogether as well...huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, they got the point that as long as you're not making money on Sundays, why do it? Once the Benjamins roll in, then its ok to play on Sundays because the bishop won't give you grief about huge tithing payments.  :wink:
Click to expand...

Oh no you didn't! :mrgreen: :wink: :lol: In fairness again, this is not BYU's fault, this coming from a BYU hater. I would also say I am not sure their "bishop" even approves of them playing on Sunday no matter how much tithing they pay. Don't get me started on tithings, I know it is not unique to the LDS religion, but I disagree strongly with it no matter which religion.


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## Riverrat77

jahan said:


> Oh no you didn't! :mrgreen: :wink: :lol: In fairness again, this is not BYU's fault, this coming from a BYU hater. I would also say I am not sure their "bishop" even approves of them playing on Sunday no matter how much tithing they pay. Don't get me started on tithings, I know it is not unique to the LDS religion, but I disagree strongly with it no matter which religion.


Of course I did.... :lol: You're right about tithing not being LDS specific.... I used to do my time in lieu of monetary donations by coaching the "Lord's soldiers" from the Palo Cedro C of C on the softball fields back home in California. I was a broke teenager, so the church wasn't getting anything out of my paychecks anyway. Besides, when you're a teenager rebelling against your religious upbringing, nothing seemed to be more important than rent, beer and in my case, playing as much softball with my friends as possible. 8) I wasn't a good candidate for college period, let alone something like BYU but I'm sure like in everything else, money talks, bs walks. Everyone and everything has a price... apparently some just don't find it until they graduate. :wink:


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## coyoteslayer

> Oh no you didn't! In fairness again, this is not BYU's fault, this coming from a BYU hater. I would also say I am not sure their "bishop" even approves of them playing on Sunday no matter how much tithing they pay. Don't get me started on tithings, I know it is not unique to the LDS religion, but I disagree strongly with it no matter which religion.


Jahan, you say you strongly disagree with tithing, but do you even understand what tithing is used for?

I'm surprised many of you don't see why BYU won't play on Sunday. Sunday isn't just any other ordinary day for the Church.


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## jahan

coyoteslayer said:


> Oh no you didn't! In fairness again, this is not BYU's fault, this coming from a BYU hater. I would also say I am not sure their "bishop" even approves of them playing on Sunday no matter how much tithing they pay. Don't get me started on tithings, I know it is not unique to the LDS religion, but I disagree strongly with it no matter which religion.
> 
> 
> 
> *Jahan, you say you strongly disagree with tithing, but do you even understand what tithing is used for?*
> 
> I'm surprised many of you don't see why BYU won't play on Sunday. Sunday isn't just any other ordinary day for the Church.
Click to expand...

Like I said I won't get into this, no need to ruin this thread or get it locked.

I see why they don't play on Sunday and I respect that, it just sucks to see some kids get so far and have to just end it there, but like I think Gary said, they know that ahead of time.


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## coyoteslayer

> Like I said I won't get into this, no need to ruin this thread or get it locked.


Fair enough  . I was just seeing where you were getting your sources.


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## GaryFish

I feel a little weird on this discussion because I've been very active in it, but am also a moderator here. Please bear with me as I attempt to walk a very fine line here.

-I think we have had some very civil discussion and explanation of points of view. Excellent. That is what this place is for.

-I REALLY don't want this thread to go down a slippery slope towards religion bashing - of any religion for that matter. So please keep it civil and on topic.

-I will not lock this thread, as I've participated too much. I don't know if any other mods are reading it - but if they are - please let the discussion continue as long as it remains civil and avoids the bashing that sometimes goes along for the ride. But any mods think things cross that line, please lock it down. 

OK. I hope I didn't offend with that touch of moderating on this thread.


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## coyoteslayer

I also know that if the church said it was ok for BYU to play on Sunday then many of you would question WHY the church is making an exception for sports players. I'm glad that the church never changes how things are done regardless of what the rest of the world is doing.

These silly little sports mean nothing when you understand the bigger picture.


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## Riverrat77

coyoteslayer said:


> I also know that if the church said it was ok for BYU to play on Sunday then many of you would question WHY the church is making an exception for sports players. I'm glad that the church never changes how things are done regardless of what the rest of the world is doing.
> 
> These silly little sports mean nothing when you understand the bigger picture.


I actually wouldn't question it at all.... in fact, I'd applaud them for loosening up a little bit on the kids but I guess if you didn't want religious structure governing how you live your life, you probably wouldn't be going to school there. 8)


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## STEVO

Riverrat77 said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also know that if the church said it was ok for BYU to play on Sunday then many of you would question WHY the church is making an exception for sports players. I'm glad that the church never changes how things are done regardless of what the rest of the world is doing.
> 
> These silly little sports mean nothing when you understand the bigger picture.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually wouldn't question it at all.... in fact, I'd applaud them for loosening up a little bit on the kids but I guess if you didn't want religious structure governing how you live your life, you probably wouldn't be going to school there. 8)
Click to expand...

And thats the key there. Just a honest question? Do any people play at BYU with the hopes of going pro? Or do they mainly go there for the religious and education aspect? If the church owns BYU, Does it in any way try to discourage the kids from going pro since they would have to play on Sunday? I know you said it is a "individual" choice, But I know as a "individual", I sure get crap from the bishop and neighbors in my area for doing things outside of the church on sunday. Not trying to start anything, but I wonder what the churches stance is on their guys going pro.


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## stablebuck

I just question the impact of such rules that come with a "Christian" school...no matter what specific religious entity it is associated with. I went to the AF Academy and most of my classmates are probably hung-over most Sunday mornings, but I would entrust any one of them with everything I have no questions asked if I needed to. Then the vast majority of people that I know who went to "Christian" schools aren't reliable as co-workers, have no sense of camaraderie, and many of them I don't trust as far as I can throw them.
I personally believe that if you don't have integrity then you can forget about going to church on Sunday or not playing sports on Sunday or praying 5 times a day facing Mecca or whatever...
I believe that the strict enforcement of religious rules by one adult on another adult opens the door for people to be dishonest with themselves and with eachother. When in all reality the only 2 things that can judge a man are his own conscience and God.
Once again...not trying to dissuade or persuade or whatever...just explaining how I think this deal about "not playing sports on Sundays" is effort best spent elsewhere.
BTW...I do go to church every Sunday...


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## GaryFish

STEVO said:


> If the church owns BYU, Does it in any way try to discourage the kids from going pro since they would have to play on Sunday? I know you said it is a "individual" choice, But I know as a "individual", I sure get crap from the bishop and neighbors in my area for doing things outside of the church on sunday. Not trying to start anything, but I wonder what the churches stance is on their guys going pro.


This is an interesting question that has been discussed at great length at my house. My wife was finishing her degree the same time Eli Herring was graduating. You guys might remember him. HUGE guy, great lineman, and would have gone first round in the draft. But he announced he would not enter the draft, nor go to the NFL because he didn't want to play on Sunday. I thought the guy was crazy myself. My wife thought it was great. So I asked my wife what she would think about someone who went into a career, knowing full well he/she would have to work on Sundays occassionally. She was oppossed to it. So I asked her why whe was getting a nursing degree. People certainly don't stop needing medical care because its Sunday, and if she worked in a hospital, she would have to work her rotations and work on Sundays every now and then. We have had dozens of rather tense conversations about it since.

I work a pretty solid 8-5, monday through friday kind of office job. But on occassion, I have to work on Sunday. If I have meetings in Washington DC on mondays like I often do, I travel on Sunday. Its either that, or I travel on Friday and miss two days with my family - something I'd really rather not do. But it is all in my choice. I really don't know of any job that at some point in time, you won't have to work on a Sunday. I know teachers that will grade papers on Sunday nights. Any shift worker will have to take a turn at one point or another. And so many jobs will occupy our minds well beyond work hours, that there is no way around it. And I don't think that means any of us are more or less dedicated to our faith - whatever it is. Its just one of those balancing acts we all go through.

If an institution wants to say they will not be open for business on Sunday, or won't play games on Sunday, or won't schedule meetings on Sunday, then that is fair enough. That is the right of that institution to decide that. And those that do business with them, as clients, customers, or students, know that going in and will adjust their behaviors accordingly.


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## GaryFish

Stablebuck - going to the Acadamy then, you went to one school that has probably a stricter honor code than BYU. Its overall mission is a different one, but just as noble and larger-picture driven. And - Thank you for serving our country! Really. Thanks. And you also understand the concept of knowing what you are getting before you go. If you have an issue with authority and being told what to do, then clearly a military academy is NOT the right place to go to college and military is not the right career choice. 

And you are absolutely, 100% correct on the honor/integrity thing. Going to church on sunday doesn't make you any more Christian than sleeping in a garage makes you a car. And just because you go every Sunday, doesn't mean you have any honor or integrity. And the reverse is also true - NOT going to church doesn't mean you don't have honor or integrity either. I'm convinced that in any given group of 100 people - and you could take the first 100 to sit down for sunday service, or 100 people at a bikers rally, or 100 people from this forum for that matter. And in that group, you'll have a share that are honest in all things, a share that are dishonest all the time, and the larger share of the bell curve, are just folks trying their best to get along in life one way or the other and are honest most of the time and will probably make a few mistakes along the way.


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## stablebuck

GaryFish said:


> We have had dozens of rather tense conversations about it since.


that's just because you're married :lol:


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## GaryFish

stablebuck said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have had dozens of rather tense conversations about it since.
> 
> 
> 
> that's just because you're married :lol:
Click to expand...

Nah. My wife just didn't like me framing the question that way. It is easy to criticize a football player who will work 15-16 sundays a year for it, but then forget that a nurse, doctor, cop, teacher, shift worker, or policy wonk like myself that works 9-10 sundays a year. That was something she wasn't prepared to reconcile.


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## STEVO

GaryFish said:


> STEVO said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the church owns BYU, Does it in any way try to discourage the kids from going pro since they would have to play on Sunday? I know you said it is a "individual" choice, But I know as a "individual", I sure get crap from the bishop and neighbors in my area for doing things outside of the church on sunday. Not trying to start anything, but I wonder what the churches stance is on their guys going pro.
> 
> 
> 
> This is an interesting question that has been discussed at great length at my house. My wife was finishing her degree the same time Eli Herring was graduating. You guys might remember him. HUGE guy, great lineman, and would have gone first round in the draft. But he announced he would not enter the draft, nor go to the NFL because he didn't want to play on Sunday. I thought the guy was crazy myself. My wife thought it was great. So I asked my wife what she would think about someone who went into a career, knowing full well he/she would have to work on Sundays occassionally. She was oppossed to it. So I asked her why whe was getting a nursing degree. People certainly don't stop needing medical care because its Sunday, and if she worked in a hospital, she would have to work her rotations and work on Sundays every now and then. We have had dozens of rather tense conversations about it since.
> 
> I work a pretty solid 8-5, monday through friday kind of office job. But on occassion, I have to work on Sunday. If I have meetings in Washington DC on mondays like I often do, I travel on Sunday. Its either that, or I travel on Friday and miss two days with my family - something I'd really rather not do. But it is all in my choice. I really don't know of any job that at some point in time, you won't have to work on a Sunday. I know teachers that will grade papers on Sunday nights. Any shift worker will have to take a turn at one point or another. And so many jobs will occupy our minds well beyond work hours, that there is no way around it. And I don't think that means any of us are more or less dedicated to our faith - whatever it is. Its just one of those balancing acts we all go through.
> 
> If an institution wants to say they will not be open for business on Sunday, or won't play games on Sunday, or won't schedule meetings on Sunday, then that is fair enough. That is the right of that institution to decide that. And those that do business with them, as clients, customers, or students, know that going in and will adjust their behaviors accordingly.
Click to expand...

I agree with you 100% there Gary. Life can not always revolve completely around religion, because sometimes in life the rest of the world wont let you take EVERY sunday off. I would hope these guys would not be persuaded not to go pro, because something like that is a HUGE opportunity in a young guys life. Very few people get that chance. I dont think a man can be judged by how many days he sits in a church. I could never even begin to imagine what would go through a guys head that would turn a opportunity like that down because of playing on sunday, But each guy has his own choices & I respect those choices.


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## stablebuck

Most women don't respect sports and competition...one of their flaws...along with weak arms


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## STEVO

stablebuck said:


> ...one of their flaws...along with weak arms


Apparently you havent had the crap kicked out of ya by one of them Samoan women :lol:


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## Chaser

On the personal side of the decision to play on Sundays, one must also consider the source of their talents. Chances are, if there is any decision to be made about whether or not to play a sport on Sundays, there is also a belief that the talents the individual possesses are a gift from God. Again, a personal belief, and it may seem like a justification, but if a person believes God blessed them with an ability to provide for their family, and they choose not to take that opportunity, they have "wasted" a blessing. The reality is that sports careers are relatively short, and if you are good enough, they generally pay very well. If a person is smart enough with the money they make during those few years, they can use it for many more years afterward to benefit their family. Looking at it this way certainly follows the "spirit of the law" more-so than the "letter of the law", but there are lots of decisions in life that do the same.


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## STEVO

Chaser said:


> On the personal side of the decision to play on Sundays, one must also consider the source of their talents. Chances are, if there is any decision to be made about whether or not to play a sport on Sundays, there is also a belief that the talents the individual possesses are a gift from God. Again, a personal belief, and it may seem like a justification, but if a person believes God blessed them with an ability to provide for their family, and they choose not to take that opportunity, they have "wasted" a blessing. The reality is that sports careers are relatively short, and if you are good enough, they generally pay very well. If a person is smart enough with the money they make during those few years, they can use it for many more years afterward to benefit their family. Looking at it this way certainly follows the "spirit of the law" more-so than the "letter of the law", but there are lots of decisions in life that do the same.


Agreed 100%. And many of these retiree's with too much money do alot of good to other people with that money.

One thing that I still wonder though. How many athletes go to schools like BYU with the hopes of going pro? Are there any? And if they go to that school for religous reasons, are they actually hoping that some day they will be able to go against their churches wishes (by going pro and playing on sunday)?


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## GaryFish

I'm guessing that in my chosen career, over the years, I'll work 200+ sundays. If I'm in the NFL for 10 years, I'll work on 160 sundays. And if after 10 years in the NFL, I have earned enough money to last me the rest of my life, put my kids all through college, and enjoy a "second career" doing whatever, its not a bad deal all around. Again, something each individual has to reconcile for themself and in their own relationship with God. 

I know of no formal or informal direction from BYU to their athletes regarding that issue. Just as I know of no formal or informal direction on the same issue for any other profession out there. Other than the usual reminder from the Ten Commandments to "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exodus 20:8 with further elaboration in verses 9-11). This certainly is not a uniquely LDS thing here.


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## Chaser

GaryFish said:


> This certainly is not a uniquely LDS thing here.


That was the other thing I wanted to add. All of Christianity, as well as the Jewish faith use the OT (at least the books of Moses) as scripture, and profess to follow its doctrines. The scripture Gary quoted was not given by the LDS church, and quite honestly, if ever American who professed Christianity followed said doctrine, almost NOTHING would happen on Sundays, save church meetings. The same would hold true for Seventh-Day Adventists and Jews on Saturdays.


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## STEVO

Mabey this is a completely dumb question here (Sorry im not in any way religous), But what is considered as holy? I know several people that are considered in my mind as "very religous". They watch football on sunday (after church of course) Go to Bee's games (once again after church) Etc. With the exception of going to church that day, It might be like any other day for them. If these NFL/NBA/MLB people happen to go church on sunday, before or after their games, whatever, is that still consided as a "holy day"? I guess my question is what exactly can people do on a sunday to keep it "Holy"?


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## Riverrat77

Stevo... as far as what is considered "holy"... growing up raised in the Church of Christ for 18 years... the holy time was morning and evening service when you were actually in church. On Sundays, you didn't do much but spend time with family between services. It was like we had church and family home evening all in one day. Pretty relaxed compared to most of the LDS folks on here I guess. I do remember going to my youth minister's house to watch football with him on Sunday afternoons, and we never really had any discussions about playing ball on Sundays and what was or wasn't allowed on Sundays so I really do think some religions do take that "nothing on Sunday" rule a little more seriously than others. Nowadays, any time I can get a fish to hit hard, pull me around a bit and get my heart racing... or even if I just get a hard strike that makes me think "holy s**t"!!, thats about as holy as I get any more. I've definitely fallen away from my upbringing though.


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## Chaser

STEVO said:


> Mabey this is a completely dumb question here (Sorry im not in any way religous), But what is considered as holy? I know several people that are considered in my mind as "very religous". They watch football on sunday (after church of course) Go to Bee's games (once again after church) Etc. With the exception of going to church that day, It might be like any other day for them. If these NFL/NBA/MLB people happen to go church on sunday, before or after their games, whatever, is that still consided as a "holy day"? I guess my question is what exactly can people do on a sunday to keep it "Holy"?


This discussion could turn in to a long, arduous one, but suffice it to say, it depends on the individual.

Some Jews (and others) believe that you can only take so many steps in a holy day, not use technology, and the only appropriate activities are ones that make you think about God any your relationship with Him.

Others have a looser interpretation, such as "as long as you spend it with family, its OK." Some believe that as long as you go to church and Sunday school, anything flies afterwards. Some won't travel on sundays, or go to the store.

Basically, from my understanding, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy" means to make sunday a day of worship. Do uplifting activities with your family that build relationships, and strengthen faith. Go to church, study the scriptures, and avoid work, be it for pay, or just around the house. Avoid spending money, as this usually requires that others must work to serve you. Rest, meditate, and try to rejuvenate for the upcoming week.

I'm certainly not the best about following these rules, and quite honestly, I even knowingly break them. But that's MY choice, and I suppose one day I will have to answer for that choice, just as professional athletes who believe in a similar way will answer. Like Gary said, it comes down to a personal decision. One that must be made with beliefs and values in mind.


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## STEVO

Ok, yea that makes sense, But if thats the case it should be a good thing to get your family together, go fishing, Hiking or something like that. Not all outdoor activites require spending money (Fill your gas tank Sat, buy food for a picnic Sat) I dont know about all people, But I think most people on this forum (religous or not) can agree that there is no better time spent with your family then the time you spend in the outdoors. I am in no way a religous person, But I will be the first one to tell you the time I spend outdoors is more spiritual for me than any other time. Its a time of relaxation. I dont see how that could not be seen as keeping the day "holy" , especially if you were to attend church that morning. Same goes with sports. Taking a family to a baseball, football game etc could be a great bonding activity for a family. Yea you have to spend money, But those people know they are working on sunday. Lets face it if people didnt spend money on sunday, many people would be without a job. And back to the athletes issue, if these athletes from these schools go pro, they become part of the reason people attend these things and dont keep the day holy. :| 

Man im confused now. B R A IN R E A D Y to E x Pl ode :lol:


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## Chaser

Now you see why there are so many people who do these things on Sundays, and so many who do not. Some believe the fish deserve a rest on sunday too! :lol: :wink: 

For those who are very religious and hard-lined in their approach to the commandment, many of these activities are just something to be done on one of the other 6 days during the week.


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## GaryFish

The Bible reads in Exodus 20:8-11:
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


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## STEVO

GaryFish said:


> The Bible reads in Exodus 20:8-11:
> 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
> 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
> 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
> 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


So according to that, somebody that works on sunday, can technically worship on Tuesday? Might make it easier on the athletes!!! :lol:


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## GaryFish

Yea. Therein is the problem. Every one of us can read that, and come away with a different meaning. And then, we have to individually reconcile that with our own choices in life. And in such, respect those that might see things a bit differently.

So back to the original start of this thread, BYU has determined that as an institution, that they will not hold classes, meetings, or sporting events on Sundays.


As a side note, it was very intersting living in rural Nebraska for a few years. EVERY local business was closed on Sundays. Period. With most staffing coming from family, most folks just wanted a day off! But in addition to Sundays, no community or school events were planned on Mondays or Wednesdays. Mondays were set aside for family night, and Wednesdays were considered "church night." It was just funny to us, as we were the only LDS family in town. Most everyone in town attended some church - either Catholic, Lutheran, or whatever happened to be closest to their house. But the entire town shut down on Sunday.


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## coyoteslayer

> Lets face it if people didnt spend money on sunday, many people would be without a job.


Maybe not because a lot of people buy the things they will use need on Sunday on other days like Friday or Saturday. Maybe business might even do better if they were closed on Sundays.


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## stablebuck

shomer Shabbos!!!


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## coyoteslayer

> Stevo... as far as what is considered "holy"... growing up raised in the Church of Christ for 18 years... the holy time was morning and evening service when you were actually in church.


Dang, R77 morning and evening services huh? I'm glad the lds church only has church for 3 hours all at one time. (3 different meetings)


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## coyoteslayer

Athletes could also go to church in the local area on Sunday before the game starts. If church really means a lot to them then Im sure they will find the time.


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## Riverrat77

coyoteslayer said:


> Stevo... as far as what is considered "holy"... growing up raised in the Church of Christ for 18 years... the holy time was morning and evening service when you were actually in church.
> 
> 
> 
> Dang, R77 morning and evening services huh? I'm glad the lds church only has church for 3 hours all at one time. (3 different meetings)
Click to expand...

Yeah... but in the evening service it was usually just more of a "bible study" kind of thing....morning was sunday school and the actual church service. Sunday nights were usually some sort of bonding thing with the youth group more than a real structured "church" situation. When I started running the church softball team, we'd usually have practice on Sunday afternoons before evening service. Kinda weird... and while I've been invited to go to several of the non denominational "life church" congregations around here, I've since learned to find my relationship with God elsewhere so I'm not much for being in a building on Sundays anymore. Like Gary said, its a personal thing you have to rationalize to yourself I guess. I do play ball on Sundays now though....with the most rowdy bunch of heathens around, but they're good people.


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## coyoteslayer

> I've since learned to find my relationship with God elsewhere so I'm not much for being in a building on Sundays anymore. Like Gary said, its a personal thing you have to rationalize to yourself I guess. I do play ball on Sundays now though....with the most rowdy bunch of heathens around, but they're good people.


That's true. We will be judged for the choices we make whether they be good or bad ones. Rationalizing your life can also be good or bad.


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## plottrunner

GaryFish said:


> The Bible reads in Exodus 20:8-11:
> 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
> 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
> 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
> 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Just for clarification.....Thats the old Law......try this one if you need justification for what you do on sunday.....

Colossians 2:16 (King James Version) 
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,* or in respect of an holyday*, or of the new moon, *or of the sabbath days:*

-O|o- -O|o- -O|o- -O|o-


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