# Bighorn poacher fined, suspended



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/2159-guide-illegally-kills-bighorn-sheep-in-utah.html

Might want to think twice before falsely claiming residency...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It looks like he is old enough to be retired. Just think that he could of gamed the system if he would of changed his DL to Utah and just lived in the home that he rented for the required 6 months or longer. 

Now he is up the creek without the paddle. 

It is too bad that there are those out there that try to game the system and it is a good thing that they get caught. But I am sure that there are a number of them that get by every year.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Awhile back I attempted an analysis to see what the attrition rate was for OIAL applicants. I discovered several instances where a high point holder switched from the nonresident pool to the resident pool and immediately drew a tag. Now I wonder whether those were legitimate movers or people who managed to play the system without getting caught.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You can take me as a example. I am a resident of Colorado and retired. I could move to a relatives home in Utah and declare my residency at that address 6 months before the draw and change my DL over to a Utah one. Then put in for any of the OIL tags that I have been getting points for and quite possibly draw the first year. So it can be done legally. 

I was thinking that where this person fowled up is that he quite possibly purchased a resident license for Arizona also along with his Utah resident license. I'm not sure if they do checks this way but it would be a way to find out people that are trying to game the system. 

I'm just glad that they caught him however they did it. Weather it was through checking data bases or if he opened up his mouth to the wrong person. The sad thing is that I am sure that there are others that need to be caught.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Is this a typo? He obtained the license while a resident perfectly legally, but then moved out of state in the months between draw and the hunt? I guess that makes it illegal? I am not clear on this minute part of the law.
If I understand correctly...Wow, what a bloodthirsty criminal!! What a joke!! San Juan HS football team kills over 50 deer and get an accumulated fine of like 1500 and two can't hunt for a few years....it just doesn't make sense to me. Did I miss something?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

From what I read the state had enough evidence to prove his strategy of moving to Utah as fraudulent. 

He isn't s guy who was naive about the law. He has been guiding for 40 years and runs a hunter application service for others. The standard of practice for him is substantial given those details. Plus, it was for a OIL tag.

Glad they threw the book at him.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Clarq said:


> Awhile back I attempted an analysis to see what the attrition rate was for OIAL applicants. I discovered several instances where a high point holder switched from the nonresident pool to the resident pool and immediately drew a tag. Now I wonder whether those were legitimate movers or people who managed to play the system without getting caught.


And how can you "prove" that? They quit posting names of successful applicants years ago. Think maybe one year someone switched from applying for points and applied for a real tag? Making "new" applicants appear out of no where? And vice versa?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

MooseMeat said:


> And how can you "prove" that? They quit posting names of successful applicants years ago. Think maybe one year someone switched from applying for points and applied for a real tag? Making "new" applicants appear out of no where? And vice versa?


https://wildlife.utah.gov/big-game-drawing-odds-and-point-reports.html

Here, you can find the number of people who applied for tags, and who bought points, for each year since 2010. It's all specified by point level, and split out between residents and nonresidents. It's as simple as tracking numbers from year to year.

For what it's worth, I found two obvious instances of high nonresident point holders moving to the resident pool for moose, one for mountain goat, one for RM bighorn, one for desert bighorn, and none for bison, so it's clear that it doesn't happen a lot. It's pretty easy to tell when it's someone right near the top of the point pool. If they're not at the top, though, you can't really pick it up.

Like Critter pointed out, it's entirely possible to legitimately move here and draw a resident tag with points you accumulated as a nonresident. Nothing wrong with that. This incident just makes me wonder whether anyone else has tried to play the system in the same way as this guy did.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Huge29 said:


> Is this a typo? He obtained the license while a resident perfectly legally, but then moved out of state in the months between draw and the hunt? I guess that makes it illegal? I am not clear on this minute part of the law.
> If I understand correctly...Wow, what a bloodthirsty criminal!! What a joke!! San Juan HS football team kills over 50 deer and get an accumulated fine of like 1500 and two can't hunt for a few years....it just doesn't make sense to me. Did I miss something?


Utah law gives this definition of residency (from the big game application guidebook):

"Resident means a person who has a domicile (fixed permanent home and principal establishment) in Utah for six consecutive months immediately preceding the purchase of a license or permit, AND DOES NOT claim residency or hunting, fishing or trapping in any other state or country."

I assume the house in Kanab was never his "principal establishment", or that he also claimed residency in another state.

I'm surprised at the penalty they gave him too, but when it comes to bighorn sheep, most states don't really mess around.


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

Clarq said:


> but when it comes to bighorn sheep, most states don't really mess around.


Unless your guided by WLH, then it's okay.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Here is a little bit more on the story. It does appear that he did get a Utah DL but I would like to know just what they based the conviction on. I am guessing that he didn't live in the home in Kanab and with him moving back to Arizona right after the draw.

https://www.sltrib.com/pb/news/2018...-states-for-poaching-a-desert-bighorn-in-utah


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I'd be willing to bet this wasn't his first and only illegal deal. Glad they finally got him. I'd also bet he is not above pulling every known illegal method, cheating trick and underhanded deal in all aspects of his guiding and application business. How many licenses and how many animals has this guy(and his clients) killed that should have gone to other deserving hunters? Now we can call him what he actually is...a scumbag poacher!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

There are two things that I haven't been able to see any details on: 

1) Did he claim Arizona residency for hunting/fishing after he applied but before a) the "purchase" date of the sheep tag, or b) the hunt took place? and 

2) Did he move before the specified "purchase date" listed in the application booklet? 

On the second one, every year the application book lists the date that the state considers to be the "purchase date." For 2018, that is May 31, 2018. See pg 20. This date varies from year to year, and played a huge part as to which day I booked for my tickets to move to Alaska in 2016, when I terminated my lease, etc. That year, the date was May 27. 

As for the first part, I also did not claim, or qualify, for Alaska resident benefits for a number of things including hunting/fishing until well after my elk hunt and other Utah 2016/2017 season hunts ended. And of course, I was a Utah resident for much longer than the 6 months before the 5/27/2016 deadline too unlike this guy, so maybe that played into the decision here as well.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

While there are holes in the media version of this event, you have to realize the guy pleaded guilty, and paid $30,000 well before losing his hunting privileges for 10 years. I seriously doubt he would have done so if he was not blatantly in violation of the law and caught red-handed. 

I think it is safe to make some assumptions here that this guy was seriously defrauding the system, and simply got caught.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The article that I referenced in my last post said that he moved back to Arizona shortly after "winning the tag" 

It would be interesting to hear just what evidence they had on him to convict him.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> While there are holes in the media version of this event, you have to realize the guy pleaded guilty, and paid $30,000 well before losing his hunting privileges for 10 years. I seriously doubt he would have done so if he was not blatantly in violation of the law and caught red-handed.
> 
> I think it is safe to make some assumptions here that this guy was seriously defrauding the system, and simply got caught.


He didn't plead guilty he was convicted by a jury. Says that on the DWR story and the tribune.

But you may know something I don't, which with no sarcasm or anything negative intended I say, please do tell. I feel like there is more to it.

He probably took it to trial because he truly thought he had done the right thing. By living in Utah, or at least having his name on paperwork for the rental, for six months he should qualify as a resident, or he may have thought.

The jury probably saw the move back to Arizona shortly after drawing the tag as suspicious.

Does anyone know if there is a rule that says if you move out of state so many days before a hunt starts that you have to surrender the permit?

I'm kind of torn on this but I don't really know the rules for proving you are a resident for the purpose of hunting permit applications.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

You just have to be a resident at the time of purchase. 

23-13-2 Definitions.
As used in this title:
(41)
(a) "Resident" means a person who:
(i) has been domiciled in the state for six consecutive months immediately preceding the
purchase of a license; and
(ii) does not claim residency for hunting, fishing, or trapping in any other state or country.
(b) A Utah resident retains Utah residency if that person leaves this state:
(i) to serve in the armed forces of the United States or for religious or educational purposes;
and
(ii) the person complies with Subsection (41)(a)(ii).
(c)
(i) A member of the armed forces of the United States and dependents are residents for the
purposes of this chapter as of the date the member reports for duty under assigned orders
in the state if the member:
(A) is not on temporary duty in this state; and
(B) complies with Subsection (41)(a)(ii).
(ii) A copy of the assignment orders shall be presented to a wildlife division office to verify the
member's qualification as a resident.
(d) A nonresident attending an institution of higher learning in this state as a full-time student may
qualify as a resident for purposes of this chapter if the student:
(i) has been present in this state for 60 consecutive days immediately preceding the purchase
of the license; and
(ii) complies with Subsection (41)(a)(ii).
(e) A Utah resident license is invalid if a resident license for hunting, fishing, or trapping is
purchased in any other state or country.
(f) An absentee landowner paying property tax on land in Utah does not qualify as a resident.

My guess is maybe he ran afoul of establishing a valid domicile as the intent to remain is usually a big part of it to start the clock so to speak, which would then trigger the fraud issue:

23-19-5 Fraud, deceit, or misrepresentation in obtaining a license, permit, tag, or certificate
of registration.
(1) It is unlawful for:
(a) any person to obtain or attempt to obtain a license, permit, tag, or certificate of registration by
fraud, deceit, or misrepresentation;
(b) a nonresident to purchase a resident license; and
(c) a resident to purchase a nonresident license.
(2) Any license, permit, tag, or certificate of registration obtained in violation of Subsection (1) is
invalid.
(3) Any person violating Subsection (1) is guilty of a class B misdemeanor.
(4) A fraudulent claim of residency in another state or country does not exempt a person from the
definition of resident in Section 23-13-2.

Once the permit is invalidated then the felony take of the ram carries the weight of the punishment.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Oh wow, I had it all wrong. I thought he had entered a guilty plea, but I was completely mistaken. I stand corrected. 

Getting a jury in Kane County to convict anyone of a wildlife offense has to be no small task! I have no inside information, but I know enough about media reporting with criminal cases to know that you shouldn't use too many brain cells trying to fill in the holes they leave!


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

What an odd deal. There has to be something that we are missing. I can see a lot of holes in this case from a distance. I have a friend in DWR enforcement from another region I may have to pick his brain on it to figure out just what we are missing.
Regardless of all of that and just assuming he was playing it dirty I just cant see how the punishment fits the crime knowing the punishment that so many of these other true poachers get who kill dozens in off season with no tag at all, etc. etc. and get like a $1,000 fine and no loss of hunting at all, it just doesnt add up. It almost sounds like he is held to a totally different standard due to being a guide or something. It just doesnt add up to me.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> What an odd deal. There has to be something that we are missing. I can see a lot of holes in this case from a distance.


Personally, this tells me that we are only hearing a small portion of what happened. I seriously doubt the DWR or Kane county would have pursued this without having some evidence to show this was intentional fraud. (the BLM is a different story!)
Does anyone know if this man had an Arizona resident license, or any resident tags in Arizona?



Huge29 said:


> Regardless of all of that and just assuming he was playing it dirty I just cant see how the punishment fits the crime knowing the punishment that so many of these other true poachers get who kill dozens in off season with no tag at all, etc. etc. and get like a $1,000 fine and no loss of hunting at all, it just doesnt add up.


The fines were not just some arbitrary number the judge or jury came up with. The fines are all spelled out and predefined in Utah law:

Utah Code
Title 23. Wildlife Resources Code of Utah
Chapter 13
General Provisions

(51) "Trophy animal" means an animal described as follows:
(a) deer - a buck with an outside antler measurement of 24 inches or greater;
(b) elk - a bull with six points on at least one side;
(c) *bighorn, desert, or rocky mountain sheep - a ram with a curl exceeding half curl;*
(d) moose - a bull with at least one antler exceeding five inches in length;
(e) mountain goat - a male or female;
(f) pronghorn antelope - a buck with horns exceeding 14 inches; or
(g) bison - a bull.

Chapter 20
Enforcement - Violations and Penalties
(4)
(a) The court shall order a person convicted of a third degree felony under Subsection 23-20-4(3)
(a)(ii) to pay restitution in accordance with Subsection (4)(b).
(b) The minimum restitution value for a trophy animal is as follows:
(i) *$30,000 per animal for bighorn, desert, or rocky mountain sheep*;

Further:
When the DWR determines that a poacher's crime is intentional or reckless, he or she may lose the right to hunt and fish in Utah and many other states. Utah is a member of the Interstate Wildlife Violator Compact, which is an agreement among 47 U.S. states to honor each others' decisions to deny licenses and permits to poachers.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/decontami...tent&view=article&id=443&catid=123&Itemid=434

so, yes, someone that kills a doe, or a small buck (not classified as a "trophy" by definition) certainly gets a lesser punishment than someone who illegally kills a desert bighorn with a full curl (classified as a "trophy" by definition).

jury conviction in Kane county. hunting rights revoked by 47 states. There obviously was enough evidence to prove the fraud was intentional.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

It seems pretty clear to me that he did not rent the apartment, or get a Utah DL for any reason other than to obtain a Utah resident hunting license. He didn't become a resident because he *was one*, he created an illusion of residency to appear eligble for a Utah resident hunting license. There in lies the fraud.

People try and fake residency for many reasons, to avoid taxes is probably the main reason, but clearly, as demonstrated by this man, fake residency can be benificial for other reasons as well(providing you don't get caught).

He obtained a license that has a demonstated value of around $70,000 and also a license that should have gone to a hunter following the rules and laws.

Laws have a spirit as well as a letter and in this case it sounds as if the jury of his peers had a firm grasp on both.

I have no sympathy for the man and actually feel like he is getting off pretty lightly. He can for the most part continue on with his life with very little concequences paid for his crime. He had his hunt and the associated memories, memories that will last his lifetime, memories that he stole from some legal hunter that has been playing by the rules for years.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Which makes me wonder how many of the other tags his profile brags about were obtained in similar ways? Completed the grand slam twice. Has killed all 10 big game species in Montana. Last known legally kill grizzly bear in the lower 48. The guy has done it all. He has lived the dream that most of us can't even picture in our dreams. And an act like this has the ability to call it all into question. Pretty sad, really.

http://www.hunterapplicationservice.com/AboutUs.htm


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I'd like to move [back] to UT to improve my draw odds as well for LE and OIL hunts since NR chances are "donated" every year in Feb, but not only for that. My resident state is one of those that is excited about going nowhere...


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

The plot thickens....Disclaimer, I snatched this from another forum and did not receive this email personally. Regardless, it definitely adds some flavor to the discussion:



> Hello Fellow Hunters and HAS Clients,
> 
> Due to the recent Utah allegations we have received some inquiries and concerns about the operating status of Hunter Application Service.
> 
> ...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

d bag poacher said:


> Because it was a Mormon jury in a Mormon town, and the jury foreman was a highly respected Mormon man and leader in the community with a jury of Mormon women, I knew I had no chance at all, no matter what I said. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not Mormon bashing, it's just that if you are not a Mormon you are not accepted by them.


It was the Mormons. Yep, definitely the Mormons!


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I always wondered if it were a fair trial with a jury of his peers...


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> It was the Mormons. Yep, definitely the Mormons!


I love how he says, "I'm not bashing mormons, but..." followed by a statement that essentially bashes mormons. I do wonder what the role of small-town politics played in all of it.

I do tend to think that if he honestly thought he was in the wrong, he probably would have kept it all on the down low.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Clarq said:


> I love how he says, "I'm not bashing mormons, but..." followed by a statement that essentially bashes mormons. I do wonder what the role of small-town politics played in all of it.
> 
> I do tend to think that if he honestly thought he was in the wrong, he probably would have kept it all on the down low.


You can't keep this under your hat. You have to challenge the out come. It wasn't my fault it was the **** rules these "people" made up just to ruin my reputation!

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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Haha that pretty funny it will censor ****

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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

To me, it seems the Nebo sheep incident that took place a couple years ago, that they completely over looked and pardoned, which was a blatant act of poaching, was way worse than what this guide tried to pull. He must not have been in their back pocket like WLH, mossback, $FW and MDF are or, you would have never heard about this. Guess getting on your knees pays off if you have the stomach for it -O,-:-o:shock:


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Clarq said:


> I do tend to think that if he honestly thought he was in the wrong, he probably would have kept it all on the down low.


He VERY OBVIOUSLY didn't think he did anything wrong.

But that doesn't mean he was innocent of the crime.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

PBH said:


> He VERY OBVIOUSLY didn't think he did anything wrong.
> 
> But that doesn't mean he was innocent of the crime.


From what I've gathered, the conviction stuck based on his intent in moving to Utah: the jury believed he intended to move to Utah for a temporary, special purpose. Intent is a very tricky thing to prove either way, and I admit I'm skeptical of 12 jurors having found beyond a reasonable doubt that his intent was flawed.

That he moved away after the draws were complete is not necessarily a determinative fact on the issue. Technically, as long as he moved after the specified date in May for 2013 or whenever it was he drew the tag, his move could be irrelevant. If he truly acted with the necessary intent to move to Utah and remain indefinitely, but circumstances changed and he needed to move after the qualifying date of the purchase but before the hunt took place, he would have been fine as long as he could convince the jury/judge/prosecutor/appellate court of his valid intent when he moved to Utah. Even assuming he had "pure" intentions, he failed to convince the prosecutor/judge/jury, and unless the conviction is overturned he is properly labeled a poacher. Innocent people get convicted and guilty people walk everyday---a big part of why I have never wanted anything to do with criminal law.

The flip side of this is, if he did in fact move to Utah solely for a particular purpose and with no intention of remaining indefinitely, even if he had waited until after the hunt to move he would be in violation of the law. His intent at the time he moved to Utah did not satisfy the requirement. Lets say he planned to live in UT for 5 years, clear out his OIAL/LE accruals and then move to WY lather rinse repeat. Even in that case he wouldn't ever technically be a qualified UT resident based on his intent when he moved. And this special purpose doesn't have to be just to draw a hunting tag, it could be for a job (military, religious purposes and school have specific carve outs to this rule). A lot of oil companies have 2-3 yr rotations and they might send you to Vernal for 2 years and you know full well if you stay with the company (and you plan to) that you'll rotate to Houston afterwards--technically you'd never be qualified to apply as a resident based on the statutes. That would be really hard for a prosecutor to prove, and even harder to catch in the first place.

It is that last part on this that makes me suspicious and willing to give the poacher some benefit of the doubt. If it was in fact a competing guide that tipped off COs and got this ball rolling, sure seems hard to view that objectively. But again, I'm just arm chairing this one with less than 1/100th of a percent of the information available to me I'm sure. Do Larry's actions look suspicious? Yep. But then again, there does appear to be a reasonable explanation for a lot of things. The house in AZ wasn't selling, bills mounting and business not taking off as expected, didn't feel welcome in the community, etc. All of those are pretty normal reasons why somebody might move back/away shortly after moving somewhere new. Add in that this guy has 2 grand slams (and so does his wife) including larger desert sheep than have ever been taken in Utah...and I start to think that saying his intent in moving to Utah was just to draw the tag becomes a harder sell. But reasonable minds can differ.

I would be shocked if he doesn't appeal this...but then again, he might figure he's at the end of his hunting ability anyway so why spend another $100k on lawyers over the next 5 years?

Muddy, muddy stuff for sure.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Let’s be clear on a few things:

1-Just because someone writes something in an email to their customers to try and save their business does not make it true. It doesn’t even mean that they actually believe it! It just means they wrote it in an email to try and save their business. I need a lot more than an email to his customers asking for them to still spend their money saying “I did nothing wrong” to give this guy any second thought. He was convicted beyond a reasonable doubt unanimously by a jury of 8 people. (Not 12) I know they were all Mormons, and everyone knows Mormons hate out of state sheep hunters and are prone to convict them automatically. Especially Mormon women. But still, all 8 of them say beyond a reasonable doubt he did it. Anyone ever see Shawshank Redemption? There are no guilty people in prison. 

2-Unless there were procedural mistakes, there is nothing to really appeal. Appellate courts do not (Except in extremely rare circumstances) mess with jury verdicts. Probably the single hardest thing to do in appellate work is to get them to disrupt a jury verdict. 

3-Real lawyers do criminal work.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Without all the facts, this whole thing almost reeks of a witch hunt against a guy where pure jeolosy is the real culprit, and once you have a court and jury on your side, any story or circumstance can be weaved to portray what you want.

The word "poacher" is used very loosely these days to almost encompass any game law violation where once it flat out meant you killed out of season. The longtime treasured practice of "party hunting" wasn't even seen as that.

The game law violation of moving to UT for a special purpose is absurd at best and really is no busybodies business of why you move to and from UT. As long as you meet the criteria to become a resident AND do not claim hunting, fishing, or trapping resident privileges of the state you left - shouldn't be a case of wasting people's time and taxpayer dollars to prosecute on what are really idiotic charges and laws to begin with. I hear opinions that he stole an opportunity from a deserving [resident] hunter.

Whatever...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

HDE, exactly how does one jealous sheep guide go and get a court and a jury on his side to go after and railroad an innocent person? This sounds fascinating, so I’ve got to know.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Who exactly was jealous the whole jury? The whole town? The whole county? The state of Utah? 

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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Who said anything about one jealous sheep guide? Coming from a small town, I know how the good 'ol boy valley mentality is played...

The reason why the law is stupid is because first they tell you how to live (can't rent and can't plan to move in the future) and then you can't claim resident benefit for hunting until you prove you're there for something else other than hunting although you meet the requirements for residency. Guess there are thousands guilty of poaching because they retire to UT for hunting and fishing opportunity and that means if I relocate to UT for whatever reason, I have to continue to apply and hunt as a NR because I'm up there for a special purpose - otherwise I wouldn't be there in the first place!!!

I don't know the "poacher" from Adam. Never heard if him until now but I have seen alot of witch hunts and this certainly appears to be one. There are always two sides of the story and the truth is in the middle. And guess what, the court and trial are one side...


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

weaversamuel76 said:


> Who exactly was jealous the whole jury? The whole town? The whole county? The state of Utah?
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


Let's see - a guy comes into the state with max points and draws a resident sheep tag, moves there well in advance before the app deadline, draws and leaves after the purchase date. He also has the "reputation" of being a [whatever, you fill in the blank]. Spokesman for DNR says the case and prosecution was "handled very well" and many others say justice was served because he stole a resident tag from several others "more deserving".

Only thing that would make his resident tag become invalid is if he bought resident tags in AZ prior to his hunt. If he did that, then yes, he broke the law. If he didn't, then there were a lot of sour grapes being eaten...

EVERYONE moves to a state for a "special purpose". Give me a break.

Guess I'll get to see UT justice in about 15 yrs when I retire to Cedar City in 2033 and draw a desert bighorn tag in 2035 because I'm there for a special purpose - RETIREMENT.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Let's be clear on a few things:
> 
> 1-Just because someone writes something in an email to their customers to try and save their business does not make it true. It doesn't even mean that they actually believe it! It just means they wrote it in an email to try and save their business. I need a lot more than an email to his customers asking for them to still spend their money saying "I did nothing wrong" to give this guy any second thought. He was convicted beyond a reasonable doubt unanimously by a jury of 8 people. (Not 12) I know they were all Mormons, and everyone knows Mormons hate out of state sheep hunters and are prone to convict them automatically. Especially Mormon women. But still, all 8 of them say beyond a reasonable doubt he did it. Anyone ever see Shawshank Redemption? There are no guilty people in prison.
> 
> ...


1. Of course the poacher is going to make himself appear as pure as the driven snow for his business/personal interests. Like I said, from my armchair I know I am missing the vast majority of the facts. The whole "blame the mormons" thing is odd, but then again, I've seen tight knit smaller communities (mormon or some other classification that unifies a predominate majority) reach some extremely puzzling conclusions. A recent and pretty great example of this happening in AK for any of you guys that watch Life Below Zero and is the history around Chip Hailstone's felony convictions, jail time, and recent reversal on appeal. Did that level of corruption/conspiracy happen over this sheep? Probably not. None of us can know for sure.

2. There's always something on which to base an appeal. Might not be a good basis, but you can always find a reason if you want to.

3. Cool story bro, needs more dragons. ;-) You know the old saying "2 lawyers, 3 opinions"


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

HDE, I'm still waiting to hear how they got the court and jury on their side over sour grapes? 

According to this convicted poacher's email, the jury was one prominent Mormon man and a bunch of Mormon women. My guess is not 2 of the total 8 were hunters, and a total of 0 were sheep hunters. This is a question that attorneys would ask (mediocre or better attorneys, at least) during voir dire, and a sheep hunter would absolutely be excluded by a defense attorney that is worth the weight of the paper his J.D. is printed on. I have to expect that these people on the jury could not care less about sheep hunting in Utah. They were simply presented the facts of the case, the law that was alleged to be broken, and asked if it was proved beyond a reasonable doubt. This conspiracy you're building for a guy you apparently don't know is a bit ridiculous.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> 2. There's always something on which to base an appeal. Might not be a good basis, but you can always find a reason if you want to.


Well, technically we have rules preventing frivolous motions or appeals. But I get it, there are those that don't follow the ethical obligations that are in place.



johnnycake said:


> 3. Cool story bro, needs more dragons. ;-) You know the old saying "2 lawyers, 3 opinions"


No story, it's science.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

High Desert Elk said:


> Who said anything about one jealous sheep guide? Coming from a small town, I know how the good 'ol boy valley mentality is played...
> 
> The reason why the law is stupid is because first they tell you how to live (can't rent and can't plan to move in the future) and then you can't claim resident benefit for hunting until you prove you're there for something else other than hunting although you meet the requirements for residency. Guess there are thousands guilty of poaching because they retire to UT for hunting and fishing opportunity and that means if I relocate to UT for whatever reason, I have to continue to apply and hunt as a NR because I'm up there for a special purpose - otherwise I wouldn't be there in the first place!!!
> 
> I don't know the "poacher" from Adam. Never heard if him until now but I have seen alot of witch hunts and this certainly appears to be one. There are always two sides of the story and the truth is in the middle. And guess what, the court and trial are one side...


There are normally more than two sides to a story but the truth falls where it may with no loyalty to those perspectives. Sometimes its in the middle and sometimes its clearly to one side or not even within the arena of the two sides represented. The notion of two sides and the middle is known as the "balance fallacy" and it has overtaken alot of our modern discussions.

I recognize the tenuous position of that criticism as someone who claims to be a moderate or centrist. But I'm a centrist because I firmly believe the truth exists outside of personal opinion or ideology and shows no fidelity to either.

The court ruling sadly doesn't necessarily represent the truth. It represents the outcome of competing sides and jurors doing the best with the information they have. He was found guilty and I am comfortable with that outcome until he is able to successfully appeal. I tend to think claiming conspiracy and malfeasance requires more evidence, that is currently lacking, than accepting the defendant's guilt. His letter to his customers does nothing for me other than expose his desire to keep said clients.


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