# BYU v. TCU



## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

The odds from yesterday had the spread at 29 points.

I don't know if TCU will beat that. That's not to say I don't think they can do it, I just wonder if they will.

More reps for Heaps, more experience for all. That will have to be good enough I'm afraid.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Maybe BYU can slow them down enough to where Utah can beat them at home. I'll be happy if the boys in blue simply make a decent showing agains the frogs.------SS


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

I thought that overall BYU showed some additional progress this week. The offense struggled and they were so ineffective moving the ball that TCU got the short field too many times. I thought that the defense did everything that anyone could expect out of a defense. They just got no support from the offense whatsoever. You can't win games without an offense.

I think the lack of offense was more on Jake Heaps' shoulders this week. He made some bad decisions and catching the ball couldn't be blamed on the receivers this week as much as weeks previous. 

At the end of the day, Anae is putting the W or the L is on the shoulders of DiLuigi and Karyia. They have to not only perform to post a W, they have to have breakout games. If they don't, the offense stagnates. 

In spite of the negative though, I thought this was a good outing that could have been much worse if the defense wasn't together. TCU didn't cover the spread.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

91 yards passing for a BYU team? 13 yards total offense in the first half? A BYU quarterback with an average of 3 yards per completion? Two interceptions to zero TD's? Jake's touchdown to interception ratio on the season is now 1-4. Pathetic! J.J. Di Luigi rushed the ball 9 times for 11 yards. 1 yard per carry from the feature back? Are you freaking kidding me? Heck, J.J. ran once for 7 yards. That means his other 8 rushes went for 4 stinking yards!!!
This BYU team is horrible. Ute fans, anything less than a 5 touchdown win against the Cougars and you give the Cougars the "W". 
You know Gary Patterson didn't have any money on the game because he could have run the field goal team on to beat the spread there at the end. Instead he allowed the clock to run out. 
Let's call a spade a spade. The BYU defense played excellently right up until the final two minutes of the first half. Then they imploded. TCU got 14 points in 2 minutes. Talk about demoralizing! TCU wound up scoring 28 points in 2 quarters and 2 minutes. I'm not smiling or looking for moral victories. My team got taken to the woodshed.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Actually Jake is 1 touchdown and 6 interceptions. The cougars are doing well though. 11 touchdowns in 7 games.

Nice field goal though. Maybe next year BYU will be independently better.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

BirdDogger said:


> Let's call a spade a spade.


Didn't I?



BirdDogger said:


> The BYU defense played excellently right up until the final two minutes of the first half. Then they imploded. TCU got 14 points in 2 minutes. Talk about demoralizing! TCU wound up scoring 28 points in 2 quarters and 2 minutes.


I'm not sure what more the defense could have done? What do you think is going to happen when the offense throws an interception on their own 30 yard line? The defense has had a number of goal line stands this year. You can't ask for more than what you got in the game yesterday, except to be a little luckier I guess.



BirdDogger said:


> I'm not smiling or looking for moral victories. My team got taken to the woodshed.


You see it how you want to.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

coyoteslayer said:


> Maybe next year BYU will be independently better.


I'm sure they will. They'll be making more money per game than most teams make in a season.

Oh yeah, and you'll be able to watch the games on a small, out of the way channel that no one has ever heard of called ESPN.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Dodger said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe next year BYU will be independently better.
> ...


Too bad money won't equate an immediate boost in player ability and wins. The effects of the move could take YEARS to come about. As a Ute fan, I am disappointed in the Cougars this year. Having a solid, winning team to play and beat at the end of the season would help the Utes that much more. Unfortunately, with the exception of a few teams, the Utes just haven't had opponents that give them a decent SOS for the year.

Honestly, I really do wish BYU could "find themselves" and turn around their season.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Chaser said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > coyoteslayer said:
> ...


I have to disagree. I don't think it makes sense to suggest that the benefits of going independent will take years to come about. The higher payouts will begin next year, the national exposure will continue in a greater way beginning next year. The players they have now are already in place. The recruiting, which begins every year, is still going to be high when they'll have the opportunity to play on ESPN on a weekly basis.

I do agree that it won't equate to an immediate boost in player ability and wins but that is because the current problem is one of experience. We have a freshman quarterback and the main rusher we were counting on isn't playing this year.

While money won't solve the problem in the short term, it isn't going to hurt. BYU is, has been, and for the forseeable future will continue to be a dominant football power, not only in the West, but across the nation. Although Chicken Little is outside screaming his little vocal cords out this year, things will get better and improve as the seasons go on.

I agree that it has been best for both the Utes and Cougars to be as strong as possible and to beat the other to make them look better for bowl games. But, you and I both know, that it is never a slam dunk for either team, even though you suggest otherwise. I would like to see the Utes beat TCU before they start complaining about the Cougars and the strength of schedule.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Ok... so here's the thing. Most of BYU's games that even do get televised on a nationally watched channel (meaning not stuck as the last game of the night on ESPNU) will still be played later in the day after everything east of Colorado has stopped watching their games for the day. Independence doesn't always equal national exposure, even if you do play on ESPN network channels. People are going to look at BYU after this season and if there are other games on, guess which one they're going to pick? People actually have to have an interest in the team to watch the game... so it'll be the same local folks watching BYU get worked every week by the good teams they're going to try and line up unless they really, really turn things around. If they don't then Chaser is right.... no matter how much they make or where, when or who they play... recruits aren't going to come to school to just play for a losing team every week, not to mention the focus is going to be on kids that can actually get accepted to BYU which narrows their pool of recruits to draw from that much more (if only because I'm sure, admitted or not, being LDS is preferred and sometimes they can't even land those players). Is BYU terrible? Of course. Is it going to get better overnight? No. Would people tune in to watch New Mexico or UNLV every week even if they were on the main ESPN channel? No....and it'll be the same for BYU. Doesn't matter where they go or what they do, they're still BYU and they're just not interesting for anyone outside of Utah or the LDS religion.

Oh and on the game.... great job TCU. Keep on rollin em up and hope for a BSU slip-up. That defense is unbelievable!!


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> Ok... so here's the thing. Most of BYU's games that even do get televised on a nationally watched channel (meaning not stuck as the last game of the night on ESPNU) will still be played later in the day after everything east of Colorado has stopped watching their games for the day. Independence doesn't always equal national exposure, even if you do play on ESPN network channels. People are going to look at BYU after this season and if there are other games on, guess which one they're going to pick? People actually have to have an interest in the team to watch the game... so it'll be the same local folks watching BYU get worked every week by the good teams they're going to try and line up unless they really, really turn things around. If they don't then Chaser is right.... no matter how much they make or where, when or who they play... recruits aren't going to come to school to just play for a losing team every week, not to mention the focus is going to be on kids that can actually get accepted to BYU which narrows their pool of recruits to draw from that much more (if only because I'm sure, admitted or not, being LDS is preferred and sometimes they can't even land those players). Is BYU terrible? Of course. Is it going to get better overnight? No. Would people tune in to watch New Mexico or UNLV every week even if they were on the main ESPN channel? No....and it'll be the same for BYU. Doesn't matter where they go or what they do, they're still BYU and they're just not interesting for anyone outside of Utah or the LDS religion.
> 
> Oh and on the game.... great job TCU. Keep on rollin em up and hope for a BSU slip-up. That defense is unbelievable!!


Even if everything you said is right, which it isn't, but say it is, you still can't dispute that BYU is going to make more per game than they used to in a season in television revenues.

BYU has always gotten top recruits. That's not going to change. How many Jim McMahons, Steve Youngs, and Ty Detmers, has Utah produced? BYU has been producing NFL quality quarterbacks for 30 years. Give me a break with the recruiting story. (P.S. Two of those were not LDS when they came to BYU).

You guys act like BYU is a losing program. You guys know that's not true, regardless of whether you are Red or Blue. BYU is terrible this year, but they are not usually. BYU still has plenty of power to attract talent over a broader pool than even Utah does. BYU can recruit nationally, Utah is lucky to get a player or two from California.

BYU also has a national following. Do you see where I am located? I have a certain perspective on BYU's national following that those inside Utah may not clearly understand. BYU is in the top 25 nearly every year. I have plenty of friends both at work and school that tell me about the watching the BYU game. Believe me. If BYU football is this popular in Washington D.C., BYU football is watched everywhere between Provo and here.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Dodger said:


> *Even if everything you said is right, which it isn't, but say it is,* *You said it and yes... yes it is. 8) *you still can't dispute that BYU is going to make more per game than they used to in a season in television revenues.
> 
> BYU has always gotten top recruits. That's not going to change. How many Jim McMahons, Steve Youngs, and Ty Detmers, has Utah produced?*And they say that the Utah fans can't help but compare schools? BYU gets top recruits? What about the QB that was a top recruit and chose UCLA instead? I call that statement about top recruits complete crap.... COMPLETE crap. BYU gets LDS kids that are decent football players... but they are not top recruits. Give you a break... ummmm ok, how about I write you a reality check instead? Utah isn't known for producing top level quarterbacks....but they get just as many, if not more players drafted every year. For the record, one of those three quarterbacks wasn't LDS when he left either. 8) * BYU has been producing NFL quality quarterbacks for 30 years. Give me a break with the recruiting story. (P.S. Two of those were not LDS when they came to BYU).
> 
> ...


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > *Even if everything you said is right, which it isn't, but say it is,* *You said it and yes... yes it is. 8) *you still can't dispute that BYU is going to make more per game than they used to in a season in television revenues.
> ...


Has anyone else noticed that the Utah fans want to talk about BYU football more than Utah football this year?

I remember hearing something about that kind of situation before..."There is, however, a far more common ailment among us-and that is pride from the bottom looking up." Little brother has an inferiority complex.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I know... I came across as "the expert" or whatever tag I'm sure I'll get stuck with because of my post... but I did my homework. And as soon as I can find a list of recruits back into the 80's (not sure they even tracked them that far so Dodgers claim that they get "top ranked" recruits would be based on his personal belief, not any hard evidence) I'll post that result as well. Anyway... here are the rankings according to Rivals.com who actually tracks recruiting classes. This is just for 2011 and Dodger claims that BYU should be pulling more recruits because they're going independent right? THEY'RE NOT EVEN ON THE LIST OF THE TOP 50!!!

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/r ... 11/all/all

Oh... and for the record, because I'm one of the "Utah guys"... :roll: I'll just throw in here that my Huskies have the 20th ranked recruiting class. Go Dawgs!!!


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> I know... I came across as "the expert" or whatever tag I'm sure I'll get stuck with because of my post... but I did my homework. And as soon as I can find a list of recruits back into the 80's (not sure they even tracked them that far so Dodgers claim that they get "top ranked" recruits would be based on his personal belief, not any hard evidence) I'll post that result as well. Anyway... here are the rankings according to Rivals.com who actually tracks recruiting classes. This is just for 2011 and Dodger claims that BYU should be pulling more recruits because they're going independent right? THEY'RE NOT EVEN ON THE LIST OF THE TOP 50!!!
> 
> http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/r ... 11/all/all
> 
> Oh... and for the record, because I'm one of the "Utah guys"... :roll: I'll just throw in here that my Huskies have the 20th ranked recruiting class. Go Dawgs!!!


Wait a minute, let's clarify what I said. I never said that BYU will be pulling in more recruits because they are going independent. I said that their recruiting will continue or improve because kids want to play on ESPN. Those are two different things. BYU will still get the recruits they've always gotten, and they have always gotten top recruits. They may get more because of ESPN, but not until they actually start playing on ESPN.

Even so, when BYU hasn't yet played on ESPN, how could they already be pulling in more recruits?


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

My point is clearly made and you're entirely unwilling to accept it. If there was a playoff or even the BCS in the 80's, BYU *might* have made some noise. Instead, they play a season full of nobody and get a championship that was questionable at best. As for now, you're again dancing around the point. People watch BYU as a side result of watching them get killed by a team actually worth something. They're not tuning in because "Oh good, the BYU game is on today". I seriously doubt many folks outside of Utah clear their schedules to watch BYU. :roll: With regard to your entirely bogus claim about recruiting, I've provided you a site where you can dig to your hearts content and you won't find BYU with a top ranked anything.... for several years at least. I'd be more than happy to check out your "facts" when you can find them backing up YOUR claims.

Ah.... backpeddle much? Where are these top ranked recruits? Doesn't saying their recruiting would continue or improve mean they would be pulling in more or better recruits? Wouldn't they be wanting to stack the deck so they can actually show up on ESPN? Why wait to fall flat before enticing recruits? You'd think they'd be all over it.... apparently, like their plan to "show those guys" and go independent, they failed in this department also. You also make it sound like Cali is the only place to get good recruits.... I think there are more than a few people who pull from Texas and Florida that would tend to disagree as well.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Dodger said:


> I have to disagree. I don't think it makes sense to suggest that the benefits of going independent will take years to come about. The higher payouts will begin next year, the national exposure will continue in a greater way beginning next year. The players they have now are already in place. *The recruiting, which begins every year, is still going to be high when they'll have the opportunity to play on ESPN on a weekly basis. *I do agree that it won't equate to an immediate boost in player ability and wins but that is because the current problem is one of experience. We have a freshman quarterback and the main rusher we were counting on isn't playing this year.
> 
> While money won't solve the problem in the short term, it isn't going to hurt. *BYU is, has been, and for the forseeable future will continue to be a dominant football power, not only in the West, but across the nation.* Although Chicken Little is outside screaming his little vocal cords out this year, things will get better and improve as the seasons go on.
> 
> I agree that it has been best for both the Utes and Cougars to be as strong as possible and to beat the other to make them look better for bowl games. But, you and I both know, that it is never a slam dunk for either team, even though you suggest otherwise. I would like to see the Utes beat TCU before they start complaining about the Cougars and the strength of schedule.


Their recruiting isn't ever high outside of a position or two, if that.... and they haven't been a "power" in the west for a long, long time. If anything, Utah has taken over that position around here or shared it with TCU and BSU in their down years. BYU doesn't even deserve to be in the "power" conversation for the last decade and a half. Show me the money (proof).... and I don't mean just an opinion because its not even worth two cents if you can't back it up. 8)


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'll just chime in here real quick. In the last five years, the Utes have finished higher than 3rd in the MWC only once. Leading into this year, BYU had four 10-win seasons in a row, utah had their 4th in the entire history of the school. This is certainly a down year for sure, but the Cougs will get back to 10-win seasons soon enough. 

As for recruits and all that - Truth is that Steve Young was the last good/great NFL QB that came from either school, and he hasn't played a college down in 26 years. Smith hasn't lived up to the top draft pick hype, and both have produced many clipboard holders. (Anyone know Ratliff is still pulling a paycheck?) Hall may or may not pan out in the NFL - right now he's a nice story that no one knows how it will end. As I see it, Weddle and Collie are having similarlly successful careers. 

The numbers show that utah is consistently putting more kids into the draft, and higher in the draft, than BYU right now. But that's a hard thing too, because during Crowton, BYU put plenty of players in the draft at the same time the team was losing games. 

My own take is BYU will never be a consistent top-10 program. They never have been, and probably never will be. But I think they will return to a consistent top 25 program. Independence will bring them more money than they are getting right now. The annual check from ESPN will bigger than TCU got last year for going to a BCS game, because of how those funds are divided up. 

As for me as a Cougar Fan, and more so a fan of Brigham Young University (the two are seperate), I'd rather see a 5-7 team with no arrests for rape, drunk driving, assult, etc.... than a 13-0 team with players that won't follow the academic and personal standards of the University (see Crowton years for those examples). I don't think it has to be an either/or situation - as players that meet the academic and personal standards CAN win ballgames and be successful. But keeping things in perspective, its just a game - a diversion - a place to blow off steam. And while a winning team is exciting for the fans, it is only football. It doesn't mean one University is any better or worse than another. Its just football.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Ok,... more, along with some bad news/good news for Utah. Good news is that Utah is ranked above BYU in recruiting class this year. Bad news is... this is the first time since 2002. Good news is that Utah has busted the BCS twice and been nationally ranked higher than BYU several times this decade with lesser ranked recruits. Bad news is that Utah hasn't been above the top 50 in recruiting all decade. Weird eh? BYU hasn't been above number 40 in recruiting since 2002. Last year was their highest ranking (22) in a long, long time.... and they're back to 47th for the class of 2011. Here's the links.... I can't imagine this has changed much through the 90's either... but this site doesn't go back that far. Apparently their intent wasn't for folks actually doing research to back up their opinions on college football. :? However, that said... dig away. I have no life... so I dig up useless info. I do have a job though otherwise, I'd have counted how many top recruits BYU has picked up in the last nine years. I'm nothing if not thorough, especially when it comes to discrediting BYU. 

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/r ... 11/all/all

Oh, and Gary, glad you're back with us. I was wondering when you'd show up.... hope things are definitely better for you or getting there anyway. :O--O:


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> My point is clearly made and you're entirely unwilling to accept it. If there was a playoff or even the BCS in the 80's, BYU *might* have made some noise. Instead, they play a season full of nobody and get a championship that was questionable at best. As for now, you're again dancing around the point. People watch BYU as a side result of watching them get killed by a team actually worth something. They're not tuning in because "Oh good, the BYU game is on today". I seriously doubt many folks outside of Utah clear their schedules to watch BYU. :roll: With regard to your entirely bogus claim about recruiting, I've provided you a site where you can dig to your hearts content and you won't find BYU with a top ranked anything.... for several years at least. I'd be more than happy to check out your "facts" when you can find them backing up YOUR claims.


You're the one that brought up the '80s teams.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter why people are watching the game. The fact is that more people are watching the game, as you admit. That translates to dollars heading to Provo.



Riverrat77 said:


> Ah.... backpeddle much? Where are these top ranked recruits? Doesn't saying their recruiting would continue or improve mean they would be pulling in more or better recruits? Wouldn't they be wanting to stack the deck so they can actually show up on ESPN? Why wait to fall flat before enticing recruits? You'd think they'd be all over it.... apparently, like their plan to "show those guys" and go independent, they failed in this department also. You also make it sound like Cali is the only place to get good recruits.... I think there are more than a few people who pull from Texas and Florida that would tend to disagree as well.


I've been totally consistent. We have the #1 recruit from last year as our starting quarterback. He's right there on the field every week.

You are trying to put the chicken before the egg. I said that BYU recruiting will continue as it has and will improve when ESPN is showing BYU every week. Why wait? Because you don't get the recruits without ESPN. And, since the contract with ESPN has been in place about 2 months, I think your expectations are a little unreasonable for showing that ESPN will change things.

I don't pretend that California is the only place to get recruits. I'm not the University of Utah, so I don't have to.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks RiverRat. Things went well this past weekend. Getting back into the swing of things - enough anyway, to spout off about a few issues on our little forum here.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> Their recruiting isn't ever high outside of a position or two, if that.... and they haven't been a "power" in the west for a long, long time. If anything, Utah has taken over that position around here or shared it with TCU and BSU in their down years. BYU doesn't even deserve to be in the "power" conversation for the last decade and a half. Show me the money (proof).... and I don't mean just an opinion because its not even worth two cents if you can't back it up. 8)


See, stuff like this totally discredits you.

You can't reasonably say that BYU hasn't been a power in the conference when we've posted 4 ten win seasons in a row. Utah and BYU have more or less been equal in quality for the past several years. No one can pretend otherwise.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not sure I'd say "been equal in quality". Utah's highs have been higher, but their lows lower as well. BYU's been more consistent.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> Ok,... more, along with some bad news/good news for Utah. Good news is that Utah is ranked above BYU in recruiting class this year. Bad news is... this is the first time since 2002. Good news is that Utah has busted the BCS twice and been nationally ranked higher than BYU several times this decade with lesser ranked recruits. Bad news is that Utah hasn't been above the top 50 in recruiting all decade. Weird eh? BYU hasn't been above number 40 in recruiting since 2002. Last year was their highest ranking (22) in a long, long time.... and they're back to 47th for the class of 2011. Here's the links.... I can't imagine this has changed much through the 90's either... but this site doesn't go back that far. Apparently their intent wasn't for folks actually doing research to back up their opinions on college football. :? However, that said... dig away. I have no life... so I dig up useless info. I do have a job though otherwise, I'd have counted how many top recruits BYU has picked up in the last nine years. I'm nothing if not thorough, especially when it comes to discrediting BYU.
> 
> http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/r ... 11/all/all
> 
> Oh, and Gary, glad you're back with us. I was wondering when you'd show up.... hope things are definitely better for you or getting there anyway. :O--O:


Are you really trying to tell me that you don't think BYU has gotten good recruits in the past?

As fun as this has been, I need to get some work done. We can go back and forth some more tonight. This has been fun, but I think we are a little off track and arguing different things.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> I'm not sure I'd say "been equal in quality". Utah's highs have been higher, but their lows lower as well. BYU's been more consistent.


Yes, on the average, they have been about the same. That's what I intended.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Dodger said:


> See, stuff like this totally discredits you.
> 
> You can't reasonably say that BYU hasn't been a power in the conference when we've posted 4 ten win seasons in a row. Utah and BYU have more or less been equal in quality for the past several years. No one can pretend otherwise.


How so? You are right... we arguing different things. You say "power in the conference" which to me is worlds different, especially being the Mountain West, than being a power in the west. USC is a power in the west.... Oregon here recently is a power in the west. TCU, Boise St, and Utah (at least every four years  :lol: ) are powers in the west, at least in football. Nobody is afraid to come and play BYU and haven't been all decade although they've made some noise here locally. Basketball is what BYU is recognized for on a national scale... their football team is a big deal in Utah... but thats about it.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > See, stuff like this totally discredits you.
> ...


Ummm, I think you are confused, they are much better in football than they are in basketball in general and they aren't well known in basketball, more so in football. Maybe you are confusing them with USU that sucks in football, but is well known for their basketball.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > See, stuff like this totally discredits you.
> ...


I tend to think that most of the country hasn't had that much respect for any team in the West except USC and they are done for at least the next little while. Behind them, maybe Boise has been consistent although I wouldn't necessarily call them a power. Same with TCU. Either way, that doesn't interest me much.

I do disagree that no one is afraid to come to Provo to play. The odds in the last few years say differently. Gameday came to Provo for the TCU/BYU game last year, that's not exactly "local noise." Playing in Provo isn't an easy thing to do.

I disagree that BYU is recognized for basketball instead of football on a national scale. Many more people know BYU football than BYU basketball. Just look at the games BYU is scheduling now - West Virginia, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Texas, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Michigan, Miami, Northwestern, Wisconsin, and Clemson. You don't get those games by making "local noise." Believe me on that one, I have a little bit more of a national perspective.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I've been totally consistent. We have the #1 recruit from last year as our starting quarterback. He's right there on the field every week.


I know, he's such a wonderful QB :lol: :lol: I know, I know he's new, but he's almost dead last as far as his STATS go. Maybe he just isn't as good as everyone thought he would be. Maybe he will get better over time.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I disagree that BYU is recognized for basketball instead of football on a national scale. Many more people know BYU football than BYU basketball. Just look at the games BYU is scheduling now - West Virginia, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Texas, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Michigan, Miami, Northwestern, Wisconsin, and Clemson. You don't get those games by making "local noise." Believe me on that one, I have a little bit more of a national perspective


.

Or these teams like to have a cupcake or two every year.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Some interesting stat geek stuff from David Locke today-

Who are some QB's whose freshman season was nearly exactly equivalent to Jake Heaps' stats so far in his freshman year?
-John Elway, Carson Palmer, Peyton Manning, Kyle Boller...I don't remember the rest. The point is a true freshman in college often needs time to learn and adjust to the game.

When was the last time a BYU team hadn't scored more than 25 points in a game before October 16?
-1970, before LaVell Edwards came to town. 

What is BYU's scoring offense ranked right now?
-115th out of 120 teams. They average 11 points per game.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Hi CS, did you get your goat? I hope so, cause you aren't getting mine.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Yes, I got a nice antelope


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Yes, I got a nice antelope


So, you went to Africa? Last I heard we only had pronghorn in North America. :mrgreen:


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > I disagree that BYU is recognized for basketball instead of football on a national scale. Many more people know BYU football than BYU basketball. Just look at the games BYU is scheduling now - West Virginia, Georgia Tech, Florida State, Texas, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Michigan, Miami, Northwestern, Wisconsin, and Clemson. You don't get those games by making "local noise." Believe me on that one, I have a little bit more of a national perspective
> 
> 
> .
> ...


Basically.... Notice that all of those teams are from east of here.... what better way to get higher rankings and more exposure than by coming out here and whaling on a cupcake from the west to buffer your BCS status? I guarantee you that people aren't tuning into those games because its BYU that is playing..... :lol: I guess I'm the only one that watches any college basketball in the spring or something (and trust me, I hate to admit that I watch ANY basketball) but the Utes are down, USU is the only other game in town and BYU seems to be getting as much coverage as anyone else out here the last few seasons. Of course, I'm no basketball guy.... I barely manage to wade through churchball scrums.... I'm just going off what I see on tv.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

All the teams are east of Utah? Are you kidding me? 90% of the entire American population is east of Utah! There are about 11 teams west of BYU that play D1 football! They are also the teams that BYU has played historically.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that BYU is not a national school and then complain that they aren't playing teams from the west. The Pac-10 isn't working with BYU to schedule games either. Even the BYU/Utah game was in doubt earlier this year. You can't have it both ways.

And, like I said before, if you think BYU is a cupcake, then Utah must also be a cupcake because, on the average, the teams have been about even for the last few years. 

I don't think either team is a cupcake. I guarantee you that Oklahoma doesn't think BYU is a cupcake and Alabama doesn't think Utah is a cupcake. BYU hasn't played many of these teams very often in the past, but BYU has beaten a number of these teams (Georgia Tech, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Miami, Wisconsin, Texas come to mind). If these teams think they picked a cupcake to play, the joke is on them. I don't think BYU has ever played West Virginia, Clemson, or Northwestern.

As far as your guarantee that people aren't tuning in to watch BYU, both my experience and ESPN disagree with you.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

All i can say is that im positive that fans of teams from back east wont be tuning in because byu is the opponent. To say otherwise just shows you are still drinking the koolaide from '84 and as much as i hate to the the one to break the news, times have definitely changed & gary is right when he talks about how BYU is now irrelevant. You don't get the local toilet bowl game every year because you are all sorts of awesome. Going independent was a move of desperation because they didn't want to get owned by the new additions, BYU will still be BYU @ the end of the day and they still won't really matter to anyone outside of utah no matter who they try to schedule to make up for the obvious shortcomings of their football program. Based on how little respect BYU gets outside of Utah, cs hit this one right on the head. Proof is the claims people throw about similarity between utah& BYU yet utah gets tons more respect year in& out.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'll disagree with a few points Riverrat. BYU going independent had nothing to do with the changing teams in the MWC. It had EVERYTHING to do with the MTN contract. BYU took a huge cut in TV money and exposure with that deal. And while both of the Wyoming and New Mexico Fans were excited becasue their team was finally on TV, BYU and Utah both lost coverage. And for what? Less money and exposure for them, but more for the rest of the conference. Well, Utah got a much better deal from the Pac-10 in both TV and money so they bolted. And so BYU did the same. And with their own TV network already in place, plus the dollars ESPN offered up, BYU's best option was to go independent. It has nothing to do with ability to beat BSU or TCU. If it did, then they wouldn't be scheduling up as much as they are trying to do. 

As for the local toilet bowl game - that is a result of the MWC commissioner sucking pickles. BYU and the old WAC had helped build first the Fiesta Bowl, and then the Holiday Bowl into respectable games. But when the WAC went huge and then broke up, they broke the ties in favor of the Big 12 and Pac 10- both good moves for them. I think the MWC teams thought the Holiday Bowl would follow them. Which they would have if BYU could be the selection every year since back then, they were the only MWC team that would travel for a bowl. But teams like CSU, Air Force, and Wyoming won a conference title or two and they don't travel crap. And bowls want attendence. The Vegas Bowl sucks, but its the best the MWC can do. And that is even more sad. At least BYU never got stuck in the Albacracky or Fort Worth games. I think the crappy bowl agreements are a big reason both BYU and Utah left. But those are on the head of Craig Thompson - not on BYU or Utah. In the Worst case scenario for BYU, they'll get a contract with the Vegas Bowl for every year - similar to what Navy had with the San Diego Poinsettia game. And best case scenario - they'll get at an at large bid to somewhere new every year, as they get invited when conferences like the ACC or Pac-10 can't fill all their contracted bowl spots. So it will be toilet bowls every year, but at least it will be different toilet bowls instead of the same-old same-old.

Now that said, I still think that CougarNation has to be a bit more realistic about their "national following." The game this year with one of the most storied teams in the Nation - FSU - was relegated to ESPNU. That is how relevent BYU is. As Bobby Bowden put it last year when asked about playing BYU "Now, that's that Moooorman school now isn't it?" And he used to golf with Lavell. Granted, he's old and can't remember the names of his own players, but still. BYU has a nice program. And they are a respected program, as most years, they are in the top 25. And they play an entertaining brand of football in most years. And in most years, a win over BYU means more than a win over Eastern Washington PolyTech, so they are an attractive opponent. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, ESPN does like BYU because they will deliver a decent audience in the Mormon Belt (UT, ID, AZ, CA), and matched with another regional opponent, will pull some more viewers. In viewership, they are clearly the best draw both regionally and nationally, than any team in the mountain time zone. But it is also foolish to think they are the draw of USC, Texas, Notre Dame or Michigan. But they don't have to be either.


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## gitterdone81 (Sep 3, 2009)

+1 Gary Fish


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

BYU is also respected because of the things coach Edwards did for the coaching profession. My understanding is he was the force behind coaches pensions staying intact if they took job offers with other schools. In the past, coaches lost their pensions if they changed schools. 

I have always felt that the old WAC and the MWC teams can thank BYU for whatever national recognition they receive. Utah was off the radar for many years until they started beating BYU. I don't think I've ever seen a Giddier bunch of players or coaches than the McBride era of coaches and players who had the 34-31 wins over BYU. It gave a small amount of credibility to their program and you could see it in their eyes and smiles after those games.

I find it so interesting, that Utah fans cannot respect a program that has most definitely helped them climb to the level of play and program they have now. I bet if you asked Coach Witt, he would tell you a lot of what he knows comes from modeling it after things he learned at BYU.

For a few decades it has been Utah's goal to have a winning tradition just like BYU. BYU set the standard in their conference. Playing and beating BYU has always been big medicine for Utah. There is nothing wrong with respecting your rival.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

I agree with both HighNDry and Gary, good posts guys. I agree Ute fans need to give some credit to BYU, but BYU fans need to realize the tables may be turning and they may need to ride on Utah coat tails for a while now.


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Agreed, jahan.
Call me weird but I have always cheered for Utah, USU, Weber, even the smaller Utah colleges down south. I like to see good football coming out of Utah. Same with basketball. Utah seems a little down in basketball now and I like to get on these boards and dis their coach but mostly in "sick" fun. When Utah is palying teams other than BYU, I will be cheering them on.

I like the fact that Utah's football is flying at a high level right now and always liked it when the BYU/Utah game decided the conference champion.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

One of the reasons the Utah/BYU game is so big is that either one if not both of the teams were good. I agree I will miss the game between Utah and BYU and the end of the year deciding who wins the conference, or who goes to a BCS game, ect. There always seems to be a good story line in those games.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> All i can say is that im positive that fans of teams from back east wont be tuning in because byu is the opponent.


Are you saying Miami fans won't watch BYU play West Virginia because they aren't BYU fans? If that is what you are saying, that seems kind of obvious. If you are saying that Miami fans won't watch Miami play BYU, I disagree. But, I don't really understand what you are saying.



Riverrat77 said:


> To say otherwise just shows you are still drinking the koolaide from '84 and as much as i hate to the the one to break the news, times have definitely changed & gary is right when he talks about how BYU is now irrelevant.


 Did Gary say BYU is irrelevant? If he did, I disagree. As far as kool-aid, at least BYU has an '84 vintage. Utah's never made that kind of kool-aid.



Riverrat77 said:


> You don't get the local toilet bowl game every year because you are all sorts of awesome.


 Coming from a well experienced Utah fan, I'll have to take your word for it.



Riverrat77 said:


> Going independent was a move of desperation because they didn't want to get owned by the new additions, BYU will still be BYU @ the end of the day and they still won't really matter to anyone outside of utah no matter who they try to schedule to make up for the obvious shortcomings of their football program. Based on how little respect BYU gets outside of Utah, cs hit this one right on the head. Proof is the claims people throw about similarity between utah& BYU yet utah gets tons more respect year in& out.


I'll defer to Gary on this because I think he has an accurate assessment of the move to independence. You can say that BYU doesn't matter to anyone outside of Utah all you want, but it doesn't make you right. I know that because I LIVE OUTSIDE OF UTAH! You have no idea what you are talking about and no experience upon which to base your opinion.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

jahan said:


> I agree with both HighNDry and Gary, good posts guys. I agree Ute fans need to give some credit to BYU, but BYU fans need to realize the tables may be turning and they may need to ride on Utah coat tails for a while now.


Remember in 2003 when BYU had the first argument to go to a BCS game and got screwed? Then the BCS realized it had a problem and let Utah come play the next year?

Win 10 games a season for 4 years in a row and we are riding coat tails? Utah has another thing coming in the Pac-10. It will be a while before they see anything that says BCS on it again.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

jahan said:


> One of the reasons the Utah/BYU game is so big is that either one if not both of the teams were good. I agree I will miss the game between Utah and BYU and the end of the year deciding who wins the conference, or who goes to a BCS game, ect. There always seems to be a good story line in those games.


Actually, I'm kind of glad to see it go. I hope people will simmer down if there is less riding on the game.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Dodger said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with both HighNDry and Gary, good posts guys. I agree Ute fans need to give some credit to BYU, but BYU fans need to realize the tables may be turning and they may need to ride on Utah coat tails for a while now.
> ...


In case you didn't notice, it wasn't a slight against BYU. Man you need to take some midol, I know RR77 will have that affect on you. :mrgreen: :lol:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Actually, I'm kind of glad to see it go. I hope people will simmer down if there is less riding on the game.


NO ONE needs to simmer down. You must be an old guy whose passion has died for the game.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Win 10 games a season for 4 years in a row and we are riding coat tails? Utah has another thing coming in the Pac-10. It will be a while before they see anything that says BCS on it again.


Yeah BYU has been riding the coat tails of the Utes. 2004 and 2008 comes to mind. The Utes gave BYU a beating those years. When was the last time BYU has beaten the Utes by 3 touchdowns? When is the last time BYU has had a undefeated season?



> Are you saying Miami fans won't watch BYU play West Virginia because they aren't BYU fans? If that is what you are saying, that seems kind of obvious. If you are saying that Miami fans won't watch Miami play BYU, I disagree. But, I don't really understand what you are saying.


They might watch to see BYU get shut out, but BYU games are kind of boring right now. To many 3 and outs


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Somedays when I'm not out fly fishing I will watch teams on T.V. that have no real significance to me, but I watch because it's football. If they are ranked teams, then I can get into the game more. Maybe a new bumper sticker is in order: A bad day of watching football is better than a good day at work!


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

jahan said:


> Dodger said:
> 
> 
> > jahan said:
> ...


I know it wasn't a slight, I was using your post more as a foil to draw out another point. No offense intended and no midol needed.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Actually, I'm kind of glad to see it go. I hope people will simmer down if there is less riding on the game.
> 
> 
> NO ONE needs to simmer down. You must be an old guy whose passion has died for the game.


Let's just say I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Win 10 games a season for 4 years in a row and we are riding coat tails? Utah has another thing coming in the Pac-10. It will be a while before they see anything that says BCS on it again.
> 
> 
> Yeah BYU has been riding the coat tails of the Utes. 2004 and 2008 comes to mind. The Utes gave BYU a beating those years. When was the last time BYU has beaten the Utes by 3 touchdowns? When is the last time BYU has had a undefeated season?
> ...


They might watch to see BYU get shut out, but BYU games are kind of boring right now. To many 3 and outs[/quote:wrblet5t]

How can you ride the coat tails of the team that is on your coat tails?

By the way, how would you know how many 3 and outs BYU has? You haven't been watching BYU have you?


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

You're right... not three and outs... how about three and fumble? Three and interception? I still get one guess right? THe reason Utah got to go is because they went undefeated.... BYU did what to get their shot? They certainly weren't better than the teams that earned their way there. I just looked on ESPN.com and BYU wasn't even close to decent until the last four years.... so how did they make the BCS do anything? About your post regarding Miami watching BYU play somebody else... nah, I'm saying Miami fans would watch that game for one reason... MIAMI! They sure aren't tuning in because, "Oh my gosh ma, we're playing that powerhouse BYU tonight... better get gloves on because I'm sure we're in for a white knuckle ride!!" To say otherwise is purely ridiculous.... people aren't afraid of BYU. People don't respect BYU. I knew about BYU when I was a kid because some LDS folks went to my school.... and Washington used to play them once every few years. Other than that... I hadn't really even heard of Utah state football programs until I moved here in 97 and I was a college football nut growing up. Thats how much weight BYU did and continues to pull on a national scene.... they don't matter, don't get any respect and don't draw in major audiences, no matter who, when, or where they play and no matter how hard you, ESPN (which I don't buy either by the way), or the rest of the Cougar legion (minus Garyfish, because at least he's realistic about things) nation try to convince us all otherwise. I foresee BYU's "big game independents" future going about the way the Oregon Ducks game did last night against UCLA. It was over by the end of the first quarter... and most folks were on their way to something else by halftime. Buckle up folks... we're about to take a happy ride through a slaughterhouse. :lol:


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> You're right... not three and outs... how about three and fumble? Three and interception? I still get one guess right? THe reason Utah got to go is because they went undefeated.... BYU did what to get their shot? They certainly weren't better than the teams that earned their way there. I just looked on ESPN.com and BYU wasn't even close to decent until the last four years.... so how did they make the BCS do anything? About your post regarding Miami watching BYU play somebody else... nah, I'm saying Miami fans would watch that game for one reason... MIAMI! They sure aren't tuning in because, "Oh my gosh ma, we're playing that powerhouse BYU tonight... better get gloves on because I'm sure we're in for a white knuckle ride!!" To say otherwise is purely ridiculous.... people aren't afraid of BYU. People don't respect BYU. I knew about BYU when I was a kid because some LDS folks went to my school.... and Washington used to play them once every few years. Other than that... I hadn't really even heard of Utah state football programs until I moved here in 97 and I was a college football nut growing up. Thats how much weight BYU did and continues to pull on a national scene.... they don't matter, don't get any respect and don't draw in major audiences, no matter who, when, or where they play and no matter how hard you, ESPN (which I don't buy either by the way), or the rest of the Cougar legion (minus Garyfish, because at least he's realistic about things) nation try to convince us all otherwise. I foresee BYU's "big game independents" future going about the way the Oregon Ducks game did last night against UCLA. It was over by the end of the first quarter... and most folks were on their way to something else by halftime. Buckle up folks... we're about to take a happy ride through a slaughterhouse. :lol:


I really don't know what you are talking about here. I think we have de-railed.

Why would Miami fans watch a Miami game for any other reason than Miami is playing?

When Utah finally gets a spot at the grown-up table in 2014, BYU will have been making more money than they will at that point for 3 years.

Independence will be just fine.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

I have to disagree with you a bit RR77, people don't like coming to LaVell Edwards stadium, it is usually a very tough place to play. Now I am not saying they are scared of BYU, but what does a SEC, PAC-10, BIG 10, BIG 12 school have to gain by playing BYU? Nothing, if they lose they look bad (i.e. Oklahoma), but if they win they were expected to win. Now saying that BYU may be one of the most hated schools in the country. People like beating BYU and they usually always bring there best game (i.e. USU this year).


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## gitterdone81 (Sep 3, 2009)

Jahan sounds like a utah fan.

RR77 sounds like a yewt fan.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I happened to be in Florida this year, when BYU announced the indepedent thing. About the entire time I was there, my Dad and I watched pretty much nothing but ESPN- THE network that had just signed a deal with BYU. And funny thing is - the BYU story got NO play on ESPN except for the scrolling thing at the bottom. No 15 second sound, no "ESPN is happy to announce a new partnership", no nothing. The Saturday College Football Live did a short deal on it, because the one guy on that show played at BYU - Todd---- whatever his name is. And actually, he made the most sense of all the talking heads I've heard on the issue. He said something to the effect that this move will not make BYU the "Notre Dame of the west", but they don't have to be. They just have to get a better situation than they have now - and the independent thing for football is definatly better than what they have now.

That made sense to me. But the overriding thought - the network that stands to gain the most from their deal wtih BYU - didn't even cover the story. THAT is how much BYU means on the national scene. And that is a tough pill to swallow for us Cougar Fans. Very tough.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> I happened to be in Florida this year, when BYU announced the indepedent thing. About the entire time I was there, my Dad and I watched pretty much nothing but ESPN- THE network that had just signed a deal with BYU. And funny thing is - the BYU story got NO play on ESPN except for the scrolling thing at the bottom. No 15 second sound, no "ESPN is happy to announce a new partnership", no nothing. The Saturday College Football Live did a short deal on it, because the one guy on that show played at BYU - Todd---- whatever his name is. And actually, he made the most sense of all the talking heads I've heard on the issue. He said something to the effect that this move will not make BYU the "Notre Dame of the west", but they don't have to be. They just have to get a better situation than they have now - and the independent thing for football is definatly better than what they have now.
> 
> That made sense to me. But the overriding thought - the network that stands to gain the most from their deal wtih BYU - didn't even cover the story. THAT is how much BYU means on the national scene. And that is a tough pill to swallow for us Cougar Fans. Very tough.


When were you watching it? Right after it broke? I saw plenty on it in the few days after the announcement on ESPN. I remember that interview you were talking about. I think I saw it on ESPN 4 or 5 times.

I also saw a story about it on ESPN.com for a few days.

I don't know there was much more to say than what they said. There weren't any games to announce at that point. I bet I had probably 10 or 15 people come to my office the day after the announcement to say "congratulations," or talk about the deal.

I didn't feel slighted by the coverage and seeing that 10 or 15 people wanted to talk to me about it afterwards, I'd say the word got out.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> That made sense to me. But the overriding thought - the network that stands to gain the most from their deal wtih BYU - didn't even cover the story. THAT is how much BYU means on the national scene. And that is a tough pill to swallow for us Cougar Fans. Very tough.


Ta Da.... tell em what they've won.... oh well... ummm we didn't come up with anything good so fading into obscurity was the best we could do. Wish you were a fan of somebody else Gary... I actually feel bad for you. Honestly, does the making of money even matter to the fans? Its hard for me to believe that the fans are ok with making millions more while having a nobody football team who is now going to be scheduled as the weak link in somebody's BCS championship year. I think dollars mean more to the suits than they do to the guys who paint BYU on their chests and show up win or lose for the cats down south or host BYU game parties at student housing in Provo for away games. They want to see the team get back to actually being somebody... and they're going to wind up ultimately pretty disappointed with the results independence is going to give them.

About the post saying you don't get what I'm saying.... I don't buy that at all. You get it, but won't admit it. Garyfish and maybe Jahan (even though he's USU second hand goods) understand what has just happened to BYU by going independent. Fans of teams that play BYU aren't going to be tuning in because BYU is the opponent which is exactly what you've insinuated with your claims about them being recognized nationally. Its just not so. Teams from back east would watch the same games regardless of who the opponent is... and it has not one thing to do with BYU as a school or people having the least little shred of interest in their program. Cannon fodder... thats what the program has become... welcome to independence.


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## Dodger (Oct 20, 2009)

Riverrat77 said:


> About the post saying you don't get what I'm saying.... I don't buy that at all. You get it, but won't admit it. Garyfish and maybe Jahan (even though he's USU second hand goods) understand what has just happened to BYU by going independent. Fans of teams that play BYU aren't going to be tuning in because BYU is the opponent which is exactly what you've insinuated with your claims about them being recognized nationally. Its just not so. Teams from back east would watch the same games regardless of who the opponent is... and it has not one thing to do with BYU as a school or people having the least little shred of interest in their program. Cannon fodder... thats what the program has become... welcome to independence.


Yeah, that's exactly what I don't understand.

"Fans of teams that play BYU aren't going to be tuning in because BYU is the opponent which is exactly what you've insinuated with your claims about them being recognized nationally."

Why anyone that wants to see their team play tune in to see any opponent? If I did insinuate what you are saying, that isn't what I intended. If Miami fans want to watch Miami play, they don't care who Miami is playing, they want to watch Miami play.

"Teams from back east would watch the same games regardless of who the opponent is."

Yeah, that's my point. That's why I don't understand what you are saying. I agree with that statement but you don't think we agree.
Are we defining national interest differently?

BYU's fan base is nation wide, and people outside of Utah do actually pay attention to the program. I know that based on my own experience.

You say cannon fodder. I say they will be just fine. Time will tell I guess.


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