# Next Question is powder



## Semaj3 (Aug 22, 2011)

So I would like your expert opinions on loose or pellets. I like the idea of the loose for greater flexibility of loads. Any insight you guys can share would be great. I think I'm leaning towards Powerbelt bullets, but will have to do some shooting first to be sure.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Loose powder. Powerbelts are soft bullets... you will hear alot of mixed results with them. Personally I do not use them.

Also do note that you can vary the burn rate of the powder by choosing powder with different granule sizes (FF vs FFF etc)


-DallanC


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## Semaj3 (Aug 22, 2011)

While we are talking about it any opinions on bullets will be greatly appreciated also. I would prefer a powerbelt style over sabbots but I'm completely new to muzzeloaders. I just don't want to spend hundreds of dollars trying every bullet on the market.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

What caliber you shooting? What type of game do you plan to hunt?


-DallanC


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Thinking of practical hunting situations, I can see someone losing a large portion of their loose powder in reloading for a second shot or just reloading period after a miss. I liked the simplicity of pellets and found 100 of pyrodex to work well. 
The bullets I liked best for my omega were the orange package Dead Centers after having a few not work well, I then ran out and went back to the shock waves and they seemed to work almost as well. I liked the 235 grain bullets.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I prefer the 777 pellets to Pyrodex because the 777 has no sulfur smell. That makes cleaning the gun a much more pleasant experience. If you want to shoot a conical instead of a saboted bullet, you might take a look at Hornady's Great Plains bullets. They come pre-lubed for easy loading and they knock the tar out of big game.


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## Semaj3 (Aug 22, 2011)

I'll be shooting a .50 caliber. I will be on the deer hunt but also will be able to cow elk hunt at the same time.
I will take a look at the Hornady's. Are those the only other conicals?


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## Semaj3 (Aug 22, 2011)

Just reading up on conicals and there not what I was thinking they were. So are my two choices Powerbelt or a sabbot style bullet? Do you have to clean your barrel after each shoot with a sabboted bullet. Sorry for all the questions but I'm as green as they come in muzzleloding.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

You should clean after every shot, but in a tense hunting situation you can get two sots w/o cleaning but not a third shot, too much crud build up.


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## richardjb (Apr 1, 2008)

Google Buckhorn 209 powder. It is now legal in Utah. For use with in-lines only and using 209 shotgun primers only. I will be trying this set-up with Barnes Spit-Fire T-EZ 250 grain sabots. Looked at a lot of reviews in cabelas webste and elsewhere. Lots of positive remarks. Use oil based products to clean up instead of water based lubes. Claims of 40 or more shots before cleaning. Claims of increased accruracy also. Will report back after next weekend.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> Just reading up on conicals and there not what I was thinking they were. So are my two choices Powerbelt or a sabbot style bullet?


Powerbelts _are_ conicals. A conical bullet is a cone shaped bullet that does not require a plastic jacket in addition to the bullet (Powerbelts, Lyman Great Plains, Hornady Great Plains, T/C Maxi-Ball, T/C Maxi-Hunter, etc.)

A saboted bullet is a bullet that is smaller in diameter than your barrel, but that sits inside plastic jacket that is the size of your barrel (T/C Shockwaves and XTP, Barnes Spitfires and Expanders, Hornady SST and FPB, etc.).

Read this. It will give you some good information:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/conical_bullet_performance.htm
Then read this:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/powerbelt_bullets.htm

I would personally shoot Hornady or Barnes over anything else, and I've killed deer and/or elk with all of the bullets I listed.


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## StillAboveGround (Aug 20, 2011)

Huge29 said:


> Thinking of practical hunting situations, I can see someone losing a large portion of their loose powder in reloading for a second shot or just reloading period after a miss....


Exactly... I like powder for 1st shot and pellets for 2nd shot if needed...


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I'm planning on sticking with pellets this fall. I've been getting pretty good results and I think they'd work well for reloading quick in the field.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

With a little bit of practice you won't loose any powder on the second or third shot while hunting. The key word here is PRACTICE. 

When I first started to shoot my .54 I was able to get to the point that I could take three aimed and accurate shots in under a minute with two reloads using loose powder in T/C speed loaders.


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## Semaj3 (Aug 22, 2011)

Thanks for the links BirdDogger. I'm a little confused on one thing. If you need to clean your barrel after every shot with a saboted bullet how do you shoot twice in the field?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You really don't have to clean after every shot but for the best accuracy it is recommended.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

130 grains of triple 7 and barnes 250 grain tez spitfire.....we've had good accuracy out of our optima's with that combination and it packs a punch.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> If you need to clean your barrel after every shot with a saboted bullet how do you shoot twice in the field?


See, that's one of the things that makes the black powder hunt more challenging than a centerfire rifle hunt. You had better make your first shot count. It is possible to put a second load in without cleaning, but it's not the best idea. Here's why:

1. As mentioned, accuracy is lost.

2. This is the most common reason guys lose fingers, hands, or faces in muzzleloading accidents. If there is a spark left in the barrel, it can ignite your powder as you are loading the gun. Any body part hanging over the barrel at that point will get shot.

3. Loading the black powder gun that has not been cleaned can require a superhuman feat of strength. Sometimes the bullet will get stuck halfway down the barrel. Other times your ramrod will bend before the bullet is seated. Now you are left with a very dangerous situation because you have essentially made yourself a pipe bomb. You have to remove the barrel, soak it in water to kill the powder, and then use a little tool to drill a hole through the bullet and pull it back out the way it went in. Your hunting day is ruined.

With my first muzzleloader I experienced both having to drill a bullet out and a ruined ramrod, both right in the middle of my hunt. I learned to clean my barrel properly.


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## Semaj3 (Aug 22, 2011)

Sounds like you don't want to take more than one shoot in the field. It's never an issue with my centerfire rifle because I only need one shot, but I also have a high powered scope on it. I kinda figured it would be difficult to get a second shot muzzloadering but was just wondering if it was possible. Guess I'll have to do alot of shooting before the season especially if I go open sights. Thanks for all the information guys it's really appreciated.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

I have learned over the years that after taking that first shot using my favorite conical bullet, the Great Plains hollow point/hollow base, whether I hit the animal or not, it is an automatic response to reload using a patched round ball. The crud in the barrel is not affected at all in reloading a lubed patch, it actually cleans the barrel as it is pushed down on top of the loose powder.


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## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

The number one reason I dont shoot sabots, Cleaning between every first or second shot. Conical bullets like hornady great plains or the FPB can be shot multiple times without cleaning. Ive never had a problem spilling loose powder, You can customize how many grains you shoot and the cost is much less. Keep in mind all ml shoot different loads and bullets differently, get out try different things and see what you and your rifle likes best.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Speaking of bending a ramrod, last year at the range there was a ramrod at the base of the 100 yard target all mangled up, but I thought that was pretty good distance for that weight. As mentioned, there are several safety issues that don't apply to other rifles. I was taught to have an exact routine with each load/reload. Mark your ramrod to know exaclty how far down the barrel it should go based on your load of powder and bullet to know that it is seated all the way down, primer last, put down your cigarette, etc. Oh, and take the ramrod out of the barrel.


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

I had one guy leave his ramrod in the barrel and he shot it out at my 4th of July shoot. It was the first time I have ever seen a ramrod survive being shot out. He was a very luck man!


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## Semaj3 (Aug 22, 2011)

Thanks for all the good info guys. Is loading a conical much more difficult than a saboted bullet? Would I need a starter rod for the conical bullets or just the one that comes with the gun?


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

You can get by with the one that comes with the rifle, but there are special ones out there that have a tip that better conforms to the nose of the conical or the saboted bullet. My experience is that the special tip lessens the chance for deforming the conical but I have NO experience with a sabot, I've never used one.


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## StillAboveGround (Aug 20, 2011)

Yes, starter tip or aligner tool is made to fit each sabot perfectly...
But make sure they do not come unscrewed from ram rod...
I had that happen once.
I knew the sound and kick was not right, but did not realize what had happened until I started to reload.
So if using an aligner tool, there is one more item on the check list.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> Is loading a conical much more difficult than a saboted bullet? Would I need a starter rod for the conical bullets or just the one that comes with the gun?


My experience has been that conicals load easier than sabots. A bullet starter is a good tool to have either way you go.


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

I have a CVA Optima and I use 2 50 grain Triple 7 pellets and Barnes T-EZ 290 grain bullets with sabots. With that load, I'm consistantly at 1 MOA at 100 yards with a 1x scope, clean barrel or not. The Barnes sabots are tight and can be tough to load, but I load my first round with a range ramrod, so it's no big deal. I also limit my shots to 150 yards and make my first shot count.

I tried the Platinum Powerbelts when I first got my muzzleloader. I used them for a while, but eventually gave up, as I was not happy with the performance. My first shot was a little off every time and then I would get 2-3 shots to hit in the same area (around 2-3 MOA @ 100 yards) and then things would go wild again. I was cleaning the barrel and breech plug every three shots too. I think that plastic skirt at the bottom of the Powerbelt doesn't always release at the end of the barrel and it seems to affect the ballistics. I've confirmed this by shooting at 25 yards and having two holes within an inch or two of each other in my target every time I shot.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

I'm kinda late to this party but thought I would put my 2 cents in. I must be lucky or something but I can load and shot upwards of 10 sabots before I have any problems with loading or accuracy. Ya sometimes the sabot can be hard to load but the trick is to load when the barrel is hot. I was also taught a long time ago to keep the muzzle pointed away from my face when dumping in the powder charge just in case there was any fire left after a shot. Last range trip to sight in the muzzle loaders consisted of a .54 knight inline, 2 .50 knight inlines and a .50 Traditions break open, all loaded multiple times with 300 grain XTP's, sabots and either Pyrodex RS or pellets. My .54 New Englander that I shoot Buffalo maxi balls out of is defiantly easer to load and shot as the numbers increase but a rifle shooting sabots is defiantly not a one shot wonder and accuracy just doesn’t go all to pot after a single shot. 
For the cost and versatility I just don’t see the need to switch to pellets myself so I still shoot Pyrodex RS and use the TC speed loaders to handle the lose powder. The speed loaders with the short starter feature are another plus as they take care of the need for a short starter which is needed way more with sabots then lead.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

I shot my Omega with BH209 the other day for the first time and I will never shoot anything different. It shoots more consistently and I never had to clean between shots (I took 12). I had used Pyrodex before and could maybe get a second shot but that was it. I shoot 300 grain speer gold dots (full curls) with a harvester crushed rib sabot.


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Semaj3, richardjb is correct on the Blackhorn 209, it is awesome stuff, I like the "convenience" of the pellets, but Blackhorn209 is so awesome I will never change back, you really can go shot after shot after shot, it is that clean, I tired the powerbelts and had the best luck with the 338 platinum's and 110 grains by volume of BH209, I changed to Harvester crushed rib sabot and the scorpion 300 PT gold, these are very accurate, and the price is perfect, 50 for around $40 to your door--bullets/sabots/shipping. my groups are touching @ 200 with 105 grains by volume of BH209. as said before, the Powerbelts are soft, they explode to pieces, if they are pushed to hard, that being said, I haven't experienced anything running away from them either.


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