# Tannerite



## 90redryder

Heard a rumor that tannerite is now illegal in certain counties, does anyone have any details on this for me?


----------



## Last Man Standing

I don't have any online references, but i can tell you that during my trip out by pelican point last week I saw tons of new signs that read " Exploding targets are prohibited, Violators will be prosecuted." Sounds like Utah county outlawed them to me.


----------



## Cooky

Here is a good site for public shooting info.

http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lak ... oting.html

We need to police ourselves better. There are several areas near me that have been closed to shooting (therefore any public access) in the past few years.


----------



## Moostickles

Cooky said:


> Here is a good site for public shooting info.
> 
> http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/salt_lak ... oting.html
> 
> We need to police ourselves better. There are several areas near me that have been closed to shooting (therefore any public access) in the past few years.


On the right side of the page you provided it states, " ***WARNING: EXPLOSIVES SUCH AS TANNERITE OR STAR EXPLODING TARGETS ARE NOT PERMITTED ON PUBLIC LANDS"

So, I guess private land only. Because of this, public interest will dwindle and it will be only a matter of time before exploding targets are outlawed completely.


----------



## Bax*

I saw that a few weeks back with Chaser while out scaring chuckars. I wonder if people have been getting hurt, or if people have been doing really unsafe things with it?

With how expensive those targets are, I will stick to expired canned goods


----------



## Last Man Standing

I know Tannerite has taken the blame for at least a couple fires. I also heard that a guy out there decided it was a good idea to shoot at one from about 20-50 ft away, got hit by some sort of shrapnel, sustained some pretty serious injuries, and made a lot of bad publicity for exploding targets. Having shot a bunch myself I can vouch for how unpredictable those suckers can be.


----------



## Huge29

The fire on the west side of Utah Lake a few years ago when they shut the whole area down to shooting was reportedly from tannerite.


----------



## DallanC

I thought Tannerite was a "flameless" explosion? Its a chemical reaction started by impact.


-DallanC


----------



## Bax*

DallanC said:


> I thought Tannerite was a "flameless" explosion? Its a chemical reaction started by impact.
> 
> -DallanC


That was my understanding as well, but the few containers that I have shot have had what appeared to be a quick orange / gold flash.

Dallan, we need to investigate this. Inquiring minds must know


----------



## Huntoholic

http://www.tannerite.com/frequent-quest ... g-targets/



> since it is not flammable and can not be initiated by any kind of flame or electricity.





> Tannerite detonations occur at a very high velocity, producing a large explosion and cloud of water vapor


The two above quotes are from the Tannerite web site listed. It appears to me that their product is not capable to cause a fire as designed. They do have have disclaimers on nock offs and people mixing their own receipe.


----------



## gregkdc

Just because the website says it doesn't start fires doesn't make it true. Youtube tannerite fire and you will find many videos of it starting fires. Also remember it is the tannerite webpage that says that their targets are 100% legal even though it has always been illegal to use on public lands. I pointed this out a few years ago in the exploding target thread, it seems that the local government is just figuring this out. The Provo range was allowing exploding targets but they changed their minds because they also consider it a fire hazard. Some of the knock off targets especially the .22 sensitive ones are a completely different composition like flash powder. Not only are these much more dangerous to handle they could easily start a fire. Ammonium nitrate based explosives like tannerite are the safest with how sensitive they are to impact and with their relatively low explosion temp that makes them "less" likely to start a fire. I see no real danger of using exploding targets when used properly, but there are always a few bad apples, and with no constitutionally protected right to use them, well you know what happens. Anyway it looks like right now the only way to use them would be at a private range. Does anybody know of such a place near Utah county? Last tannerite is still somewhat of a legal grey area when you read the NFPA code. I figure it will take the local government another 10 years to read the NFPA code and realize that binary precursor chemicals are also a no no. Maybe they already know this and keep it on the books so if there is an incident they can take legal recourse, after all what isn't a fire violation anymore?


----------



## chet

tannerite WILL NOT start a fire all by itself. now if you put a cup of diesel fuel on top of it (or a gallon or two) then you will create some impressive flames!!! especially in the dark!!!! don't ask me how I know this!
the youtube videos of the tannerite creating flames all have a form of combustable fuel involved.


----------



## gregkdc

Exactly! In one video a guy blows up a bag of flour and starts a fire. I am not convinced that the ignitability of flour is that much easier than dry, hot cheek grass in the middle of August. On another video a guy is shooting Star targets on an old log and in every case you can see the log trying to ignite. It never does but if there was something easily flammable next to the log it could have went up.


----------



## wyogoob

chet said:


> tannerite WILL NOT start a fire all by itself. now if you put a cup of diesel fuel on top of it (or a gallon or two) then you will create some impressive flames!!! especially in the dark!!!! don't ask me how I know this!
> ...........................quote]
> 
> thanks chet
> 
> The grandkids and I are gonna take a ride. :twisted:


----------



## Huntoholic

I'll preface this with I'm not an expert. I spent a little time today doing some quick research. 

The tannerite product is classified as a non-incendiary device. The only thing it produces is a temperature spike and a nitrogen? cloud with water vapor and is oxygen deprived. It appears in the you tube videos, that I looked at, that a secondary substance was used to get the fireballs. I'm guessing the temperature spike is higher then the flash point of the secondary substance. I don't believe the temperature spike is in a long enough duration to catch grass, leaves, or such on fire. Couple that with the nitrogen cloud and oxygen deprivation I would think that causing a fire in of itself is highly unlikely.

As I read, the reason, that Tannerite is not allowed to be detonated on public lands is that it is classified as a "destructive explosive device". This description alone says they don't want things going boom no matter what causes it.

There does appear to be a wide area of gray concerning Tannerite. While it is legal to own in its un-mixed state the gray area comes to light when you mix it. It appears that when it is mixed it falls into the Black powder type of category concerning storage, transportation, and quantity. I would expect this type of regulation.

Unfortunately when it comes to government agencies they will alway error on the side of caution, especially things they don't understand.


----------



## 90redryder

Good info. Sounds like ill be doing all my tannerite destruction on private land. No worries ill clean up the T.V. remnants if there is anythng left...


----------



## gregkdc

I am no expert either, and I don't know what their basis is for saying tannerite wont start a fire. I suspect it is because it is ammonium nitrate based.

In blasting many ammonium nitrate based explosives are termed "permissible" because they can be used or "permitted" in coal mines, it is because of the ammonium nitrate they contain that gives them this property. Their temperature is low enough and flame duration is short enough that they won't ignite coal dust or methane gas in the mine. The fact that tannerite can ignite gasoline or other fuels means that it is most likely not in the same class of explosives even though it is ammonium nitrate based. 

There are many variables that could creep in if conditions aren't perfect like the ammonium nitrate absorbing moisture, poor mixing, a glancing bullet impact etc. I have seen tannerite only partially detonate and it made a big flame of crackling fire similar to a firework with a flame duration much longer than the typical flash you see with a complete detonation. 

Tannerite is not just ammonium nitrate and aluminum. If I remember right the recipe also includes ammonium perchlorate that increases the flame temp as well as zirconium hydride and titanium sponge to increase the sensitivity. The titanium is placed in there to deliberately cause sparking and make it easier to go off. If the fuel is not properly mixed you could get residual sparks especially with the titanium that could last longer than the initial detonation. I feel like the company web page is only telling half the story. For example some of the smoke is water vapor but it is also toxic and corrosive to breath becuase it also contains aluminum oxide,hydrogen chloride, nitric oxide, nitrogen and a host of other reaction products. I like how they dis on homemade recipes when the reality of it is that the standard 95/5 ratio of ammonium nitrate to aluminum is going to be safer to handle and less likely to start a fire than tannerite itself.

Last Federally it is legal to make tannerite and other binary targets. It has never been legal to use them on public lands according to the State code that specifically says you can not use explosives on division lands. If that wasn't bad enough Utah has also adopted the NFPA code as law that goes into mind numbing details and legalities pertaining to explosives including binaries even before they are mixed, but I don't like to bring this up because most authorities don't seem to know about it.


----------



## GaryFish

The other reality of using anything that explodes on public land, is the fire Camp Williams started over the hill from Herriman last year. Exploding targets, flash points, chemical make ups, or even a different issue all together since it was tracers that started that fire, but the social and therefore political reality is that if it goes "boom," it won't be used by the public on public lands.


----------



## Bax*

90redryder said:


> Good info. Sounds like ill be doing all my tannerite destruction on private land. No worries ill clean up the T.V. remnants if there is anythng left...


Not trying to sound like an up tight jerk wad, but I would strongly dissuade you from blasting a TV to smitherines. We organized a service project on the West side of Utah Lake and the BLM officer that was our liaison explained that TVs and computer monitors contain a large amount of hazardous materials for wildlife and it is extremely expensive to properly clean an area where one of these devices has been destroyed. If memory serves me correct, it was about $1000 to clean a little patch of dirt. He even made it a point to tell us not to touch the pieces due to mercury contamination.

Again, not trying to be preachy but maybe some food for thought?


----------



## Huntoholic

Gregkdc you have given some solid information. Thanks.
In the stuff that I was reading, it appeared to me that Tannerite product was more of a chemical reaction.

I did fined the Tannerite Patent application. The components are as you listed. 
Some interesting parts of their Application:


> even in mixed form, since the Tannerite Target is not even flammable in the mixed state.





> The chemicals are environmentally friendly and non-hazardous to the person using them.


It would be interesting to know the bases of their claims in more detail. I know ammonium perchlorate is on the Hazardous Substance list of DOT and NFPA. It would also be interesting to know, exactly, what the levels and types by-product of the explosion are.


----------



## 90redryder

Bax* said:


> 90redryder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good info. Sounds like ill be doing all my tannerite destruction on private land. No worries ill clean up the T.V. remnants if there is anythng left...
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to sound like an up tight jerk wad, but I would strongly dissuade you from blasting a TV to smitherines. We organized a service project on the West side of Utah Lake and the BLM officer that was our liaison explained that TVs and computer monitors contain a large amount of hazardous materials for wildlife and it is extremely expensive to properly clean an area where one of these devices has been destroyed. If memory serves me correct, it was about $1000 to clean a little patch of dirt. He even made it a point to tell us not to touch the pieces due to mercury contamination.
> 
> Again, not trying to be preachy but maybe some food for thought?
Click to expand...

I didnt know they contain mercury, as a hunter id rather not poison my game. I have no problem finding something else to rip up with tannerite.


----------



## Bax*

90redryder said:


> Bax* said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 90redryder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good info. Sounds like ill be doing all my tannerite destruction on private land. No worries ill clean up the T.V. remnants if there is anythng left...
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to sound like an up tight jerk wad, but I would strongly dissuade you from blasting a TV to smitherines. We organized a service project on the West side of Utah Lake and the BLM officer that was our liaison explained that TVs and computer monitors contain a large amount of hazardous materials for wildlife and it is extremely expensive to properly clean an area where one of these devices has been destroyed. If memory serves me correct, it was about $1000 to clean a little patch of dirt. He even made it a point to tell us not to touch the pieces due to mercury contamination.
> 
> Again, not trying to be preachy but maybe some food for thought?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I didnt know they contain mercury, as a hunter id rather not poison my game. I have no problem finding something else to rip up with tannerite.
Click to expand...

Yeah it was news to me. Think of how bad I felt knowing I had shot TVs as a kid!


----------



## mikevanwilder

I had talked to the BLM office in Price about this and they said that around Emery and Carbon counties it was still legal to shoot tannerite targets. It must just be in Utah and Salt Lake counties and maybe others that have disallowed it on public lands. 
I have shot many of these targets and never once had a problem with it catching anything on fire. They sure are fun though!


----------



## gregkdc

You could be right, here is the fire restriction order, note it specifically lists which counties tannerite is prohibited in. 
http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/ ... r_2011.pdf
Also even thought he NFPA regulates such explosives it usually allows for the local authority having jurisdiction to give the final approval. That is how it is possible to have a commercial fireworks show when they are clearly normally prohibited in Utah as well. So if a Sheriff or Fire Marshal residing in a county that is not listed in the fire ban says it is ok, then as fare as I can tell your ok. Please take that with a grain of salt.


----------

