# Even going for a hike in Utah is turning into a draw...



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Zion moves forward with lottery system for Angel’s Landing; here’s everything you need to know


SPRINGDALE — If you’re planning a trip to Zion National Park on or after April 1 and want to hike the popular Angels Landing, you will need a permit. Starting on Jan. 3, the National Park Service will issue permits using online lotteries at Recreation.gov. “Angels Landing is one of the most...




www.stgeorgeutah.com


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

What we really need are a few more national parks and a few dozen monuments!!! 🙄


----------



## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I wonder how long until this “draw” will be added to $FW’s expo?!?


----------



## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

Oh man that’s crazy! 😳


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Yeah I called this out for what it is 4 months ago.
Last post, page 5.








It's time to oust Mr. Anti Public Land Mike Lee


Your not at all suspicious about how he's saying Utah is ready for the Olympics? After all that has been going on here with out of control growth? Rising taxes and cost of living? If we could just figure out a way to stop all these **** Californians from coming here the last 10 years or so...




www.utahwildlife.net




Wilderness or hiking permits suck ass. Been there, done that, hated it.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

If one has the knowhow, time and money, Just make a virtual video of those hikes and offer them to the patrons instead of the "real deal". Some of that virtual video stuff can really play mind tricks on you.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Have any of you attempted to do Angel's Landing in the last year or two? I've mentioned this before, but some of these easy-access hikes in Zion are truly crazy -- we hiked the East Rim from the top (ie: North Fork) last year in the "off season". That trail head was surprisingly busy. But what was astonishing was the view from the East Rim down on to Angel's Landing. You could see a non-broken line of people from Angel's Landing all the way down to the junction of the West Rim, then heading down into the canyon. The line looked worse than anything I've ever seen at DisneyLand.

3.6 million visitors to Zion National Park in 2020. Let me say that number again: 3.6 MILLION. _They needed to do something._ And these permits and draw systems for hikes are nothing new. The Wave has been this way for years.


I'm surprised that people on this forum are looking at this in a negative light. Access to public land and the availability of a plethora of other hikes with similar opportunities are available to each of us, without the need to participate in the crowds of Zion National Park. This is the 3rd most visited National Park in the country! And you guys are comparing it to a hunt draw system...


----------



## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

2021 is at 4.7 million people SO FAR this year that have visited Zion. 
We used to spend a lot of time there when growing up. Don't go near Zion anymore


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

PBH said:


> Have any of you attempted to do Angel's Landing in the last year or two? I've mentioned this before, but some of these easy-access hikes in Zion are truly crazy -- we hiked the East Rim from the top (ie: North Fork) last year in the "off season". That trail head was surprisingly busy. But what was astonishing was the view from the East Rim down on to Angel's Landing. You could see a non-broken line of people from Angel's Landing all the way down to the junction of the West Rim, then heading down into the canyon. The line looked worse than anything I've ever seen at DisneyLand.
> 
> 3.6 million visitors to Zion National Park in 2020. Let me say that number again: 3.6 MILLION. _They needed to do something._ And these permits and draw systems for hikes are nothing new. The Wave has been this way for years.
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing that something needed to be done. It just blows that it has gotten to this point. Maybe not for the local business owners and other people though. Do I have a me me me attitude? Probably. It is what it is.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Protect it by ruining it with over crowding? Awesome plan. It’s the biggest BS story ever. Find a spectacularly beautiful place. That has been beautiful for eons. Then get all over protective and decide it has to be “saved”! And then pave a lot of it and install infrastructure and kiosks and have rangers stand around pointing out how pretty it is! And then wonder how a person can’t take a hike without winning a draw! It’s about the most asinine thing I can imagine. I’m happy for those of you who want to stand on a paved trail and stare at thousands of people as they stare at an arch or a hoodoo. But “saving” Zion’s has completely ruined the place. Just my opinion


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

It's forever altered the visitor experience, yes. 

But the vast majority of the environment is seen by a tiny portion of the visitors; I'm guessing less than 0.5% a year. We've saved amazing habitat and ecosystems because of this NP. That wasn't likely to happen without our national park heritage.


----------



## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Nobody is saying that it shouldn’t be a National Park. 
It‘s just too bad that it has to be loved to death. 
Which is exactly what is ruining it.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

2full said:


> Nobody is saying that it shouldn’t be a National Park.
> It‘s just too bad that it has to be loved to death.
> Which is exactly what is ruining it.


AMEN!!!!!


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

When we were down at bears ears last spring. The park rangers were saying how the creation of the monument will ruin many of the "sites". We also ran into a guy at one of the sites that told us that he was involved in a lot of the surveying and logging information about the many sites in that area about 30 years ago and he was also sad to see how the monument has created a huge increase in visitors. Which will greatly degrade many of the ruins.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

There should be no doubt that the designations are an attempt to protect some very unique landscapes and features. And to do this the support has to be generated to support them. It can't be any surprise to anyone that they have been promoted as spectacular locations. And as such people are attracted to visit.

They are pretty unique locations and are not an every day experience for the vast majority of people. I find it surprising that there are so many people just in Utah that have never visited the Utah parks and monuments. And thank god that few of the ones that do have the inclination to discover the other areas that are not as well known.

Too bad it is not as easy as guarding your hunting honey hole.


----------



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

2full said:


> 2021 is at 4.7 million people SO FAR this year that have visited Zion.
> We used to spend a lot of time there when growing up. Don't go near Zion anymore


As I was reading through the first posts this is exactly how I was thinking.

That being said I do have to go down there for work occasionally. Just went to the Kolob Center last week because one of the employees cut a cable that I had to repair.

When I was first married my we would go down with my wife's family for Easter and have a family softball game on the front lawn of the lodge. Try doing that today.


----------



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> When we were down at bears ears last spring. The park rangers were saying how the creation of the monument will ruin many of the "sites". We also ran into a guy at one of the sites that told us that he was involved in a lot of the surveying and logging information about the many sites in that area about 30 years ago and he was also sad to see how the monument has created a huge increase in visitors. Which will greatly degrade many of the ruins.


This is what I was thinking, before the Grand Staircase was formed hardly anyone went there, the same for the Bears Ears, trying to be little miss helpful ruins things a lot of the time.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

backcountry said:


> It's forever altered the visitor experience, yes.
> 
> But the vast majority of the environment is seen by a tiny portion of the visitors; I'm guessing less than 0.5% a year. We've saved amazing habitat and ecosystems because of this NP. That wasn't likely to happen without our national park heritage.





2full said:


> Nobody is saying that it shouldn’t be a National Park.
> It‘s just too bad that it has to be loved to death.
> Which is exactly what is ruining it.


I agree with your take.

Cowboy's was the reason I responded as I did. Park designation comes with modern pitfalls but it undoubtedly preserved an amazing place (and the park, landscape level). There is no accurate accounting that justifies "it completely ruined the place" as argument against the protection in general. It's that adverb "completely" that does the conclusion in.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I think the tough part with Bears Ears is the place has a history of a century of pillaging. How do you address that effectively? The looting of artifacts continues through the modern era. I was mocked in the past for saying it, and I still can't find the BLM document so I risk it again, but some of these antiquities hunters are very sophisticated and making huge profits; I firmly remember the regional BLM there having a flyer looking for information regarding a helicopter, without required markings, that was being investigated for alleged looting of a remote ruin. 

I'm not convinced a NM designation is the proper solution given it's impact but I'm thinking large scale antiquities theft will be much harder. Sadly a death by a thousand small cuts, instead of a few big ones, is still a death. I'm guessing BENM will be pretty empty of shard piles and _in situ_ artifacts within 2 decades. I'll still take my daughter but I doubt there will be intact pots like we use to see on occasion.


----------



## bfrankl (Jan 28, 2021)

2full said:


> 2021 is at 4.7 million people SO FAR this year that have visited Zion.
> We used to spend a lot of time there when growing up. Don't go near Zion anymore


Growing up I drove through Zion literally hundreds if not thousands of times as it was the most convenient route to travel to get to St George from my home town. It used to be a really enjoyable drive. Sadly, I'm not sure the last time I've gone through now. The park is just too overcrowded. And unfortunately, I don't know what anyone can do about it.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

One of the largest pillagers of Native American artifacts are the Native American's themselves. 

I have worked in the area with a high Native American population and worked inside of their homes. Some of you would not believe the amount of artifacts that they have sitting inside their homes up on the walls and mantel pieces. 

But as there are more and more monuments created more people will hear about them and wonder what all the fuss is all about and come out here from where ever to see what is going on. Only to leave their biodegradable TP sitting behind a rock or a tree along with their campfire rings in places that shouldn't have campfires.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Critter said:


> One of the largest pillagers of Native American artifacts are the Native American's themselves.
> 
> I have worked in the area with a high Native American population and worked inside of their homes. Some of you would not believe the amount of artifacts that they have sitting inside their homes up on the walls and mantel pieces.
> 
> But as there are more and more monuments created more people will hear about them and wonder what all the fuss is all about and come out here from where ever to see what is going on. Only to leave their biodegradable TP sitting behind a rock or a tree along with their campfire rings in places that shouldn't have campfires.


Didn't you know, they're called "heirlooms".


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

backcountry said:


> I agree with your take.
> 
> Cowboy's was the reason I responded as I did. Park designation comes with modern pitfalls but it undoubtedly preserved an amazing place (and the park, landscape level). There is no accurate accounting that justifies "it completely ruined the place" as argument against the protection in general. It's that adverb "completely" that does the conclusion in.


For you there is no “accurate accounting”! For me that statement is completely justified. I’ve treasured solitude my entire life. Zion’s today is ruined for me. I simply won’t return to deal with the cars and crowds and commercialization of what was a grand place. You and I come from different backgrounds and life experiences. I stand by my statement. You have your opinion. Do not be so arrogant as to think mine isn’t important. If you think Zion’s isn’t completely ruined that is fine. I feel different.
I’ve spent decades on the BENM. I’ve had days I never saw another human out there. That is changing rapidly as well. The hypocrisy of commercializing these sacred and special places is beyond my ability to understand. Looting will always be wrong and horrific. But I have one hell of a time understanding how saving a place by sending in millions of people is any worse? I know places where pots are still sitting right where the ancients left them. I’ve also watched archeologists bust them with a hammer so they would fit in a box in a shallow drawer. But since a university sponsored them it was perfectly legal! Again, backcountry, you and I come from very different circumstances. I can probably never make a dent at you understanding where I come from. But my experience has been people and lots of them make things exponentially worse. I’d of much rather seen Zion’s when it was discovered by cowboys after wayward cattle than the way it stands now. If you enjoy it, good for you.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

We only disagree on the "completely" claim. That's an untenable claim given what we've seen in S. Utah.

It's 100% fine to disagree on wether parks and monuments ultimately help. We both agree the visitor experience is extremely problematic in many of these places. We likely agree it's gotten not just worse but never likely to recover. I 100% agree BENM will see harm from monument designation, I've been consistent on that conclusion and said so in my second post. I also know (second hand) of really poor and outright unethical behavior by officials charged with respecting the artifacts.

But those criticisms can and do coexist with benefits to designations. That's the element that is fundamentally untrue about the "completely" claim. We know for a fact that Zion NP preserved the place in perpetuity which was uncertain otherwise. We know such designation guarantees access to civilians on an equal basis (even if that equal basis is done through a random draw for certain places). We know it preserves habitat for several listed species. We know it protects a portion of critical waterway from commercial pollution, private capture, etc. We know the rock art is monitored for damage more than undesignated locations, even if it's not able to completely prevent damage. We know it protects critical habitat for wildlife, both game and non-game (often to the consternation of hunters in autumn) and therefore serves as an island reservoir for the species we value. I could go on.

We can advocate for or against designation without omitting facts that run counter to our preferences. I am sorry it's changed in such a drastic way for you. It has for me as well. I got married on the banks of the river a the end of the canyon road; I rarely go back for similar reasons as you. I don't like what's happened at all in the intervening years. But we don't get to ignore all the other positives because we've watched the place we love change (at least in a public convo). 

*It's also possible to passionately disagree about ideas without insulting the other person. I refuse to return the favor of your attacks.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Where in the hell did I attack you?


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Backcountry I have spent my life in the exact definition of your handle. From the Frank Church to the Bob Marshall. From the Kaibab to the Uinta mnts. From the Great Basin to the Arizona desert. I’ve found spots that have touched my soul. I sure as hell didn’t invite several thousand associates to go back there with me! Your definition of backcountry must be much different than mine. As is our feelings on the protection gained when a place is designated a monument or park. These aren’t attacks on you sir, they are facts. Go reread what you wrote and explain who actually attacked! You come across very condescending and I get the feeling you just assume I’m a poorly educated rancher. You claim you won’t return to the place you married your bride? And then still believe Zion’s being a park that attracts dang near 5 million people in 2021 is a good thing? Can’t you see the reason I’m sincerely incredulous when you make those statements?


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

You called me or directly implied I was arrogant for critiquing your concept of "completely ruined". You just threw out a similar attack, ie condescending. Those are a statement about the person, ie ad hominem, not the ideas.

There is a fundamental difference between criticizing an idea shared publicly and insulting the person. One of those can lead to civil conversation, the other doesn't. Criticizing a publicly shared idea doesn't imply the other person is ignorant or their livelihood isn't worthy. I didn't imply that in my statements at all. I didn't because I don't believe those things.

I've actually supported your underlying sentiments that led to what I consider a problematic conclusion. I've highlighted many overlaps to our experiences, and what I presume are underlying values. I do that intentionally as those overlaps likely are bigger than where we diverge.

I'm not sure how you can draw any conclusions about my concept of the backcountry or what I believe is an ideal form of protection of it. Admitting costs and benefits exist to any system doesn't imply more then that reality, ie there are benefits alongside the negatives. I haven't said I think national park status is or remains the best option. I just recognize the benefits it did create exist alongside many modern ailments we both dislike. Heck, I think BENM was a missed opportunity because conservationist took a hard line.

One of the big problems with writing off something as "completely ruined" is it eliminates the possibility of middle ground with those who tack differently. It doesn't take much rooting around in my posts to see I attempt to apply that evenly against those who tend to attack from the "other side". Wether we like it or not we live in a state, and nation, with a plurality of views/preferences. We can't expect to work together if issues like this only exist on two poles: a nirvanic ascendency to a preordained conservation utopia or a land that is "completely ruined" (& vis versa) And if if we can't work together how is any of this work ever going to be sustainable?


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

There is a reason they call the area around military bases that attract the off duty military as the "impact area". But to someone from NYC who goes into Zion this summer for the first time I would just guess the crowd has much less impact than to someone who has visited it many years ago and come back to see more people than they remembered.

Personally I have a long list of locations that are no longer how I remember them. And for the most part it is because of people and their impact. Not that the environment its self has changed to any degree.

I can only try and imagine the impact to the area of ZNP would be with 5 million people coming without any protections. Maybe we can agree that we people are our own worst enemy.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Don't even get me started on that wonderful little hike in Kanarraville up to the falls. I used to go up there with high school buddies all the time. We would catch fish in that stream until reeling in fish got boring. All you would ever see up there would be the occasional Kanarra local. Now it's a total shart show.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Let me be absolutely clear- Zion’s is ruined completely for ME!!!! That was always the case in this conversation. I have stated several times that you feel differently. I have never said it’s completely ruined for everyone. Overcrowding has ruined these parks for me. When I cross country skied into Bryce in the late 80’s that was perfect in my opinion. Ever saw a soul in 4 days. Try that today! Backcountry I never intended or meant to attack you. I simply wanted to state a different opinion. Possibly my communication wasn’t up to par somewhere. And I do agree completely with you that the current mess in the parks is unsustainable.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

My last trip in Kanaraville was a late autumn fly fishing trip. Closest I've ever coming to an unplanned bivouac after I severely sprained my ankle not too far from the falls.

Haven't been back since then as I can't quite deal with the changes. I knew people fished it but never saw anyone doing so.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

cowboy said:


> I’ve spent decades on the BENM. I’ve had days I never saw another human out there. That is changing rapidly as well. The hypocrisy of commercializing these sacred and special places is beyond my ability to understand. Looting will always be wrong and horrific. But I have one hell of a time understanding how saving a place by sending in millions of people is any worse?


They are saving it from extraction processes like drilling.

Funny thing is, there are either no economic reservoirs to tap, or they just flat out ain't there.

I agree. Trying to preserve something by bringing in bussloads of tourists is about as dumb as something gets.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I feel sorry for those who never experienced the parks and monuments that we have before the crowds and tourist buses showed up. 

Zion started getting crowded back in the 70's when I worked down in St George and Cedar City, Bryce not so much. 

To me anymore they are just like museums where the tour operator tells you to just keep on moving so that all can see what you are looking at.

I'm just glad that I have places that most people will not see in the rest of my lifetime that I can still retreat into.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Calf creek holds some fond memories for me back before it was discovered as well. And the Escalante River. And The Fifty.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have quite a few areas down on the San Rafael that very few people venture into and the ones that do are very respectful of the area. It has just about all that Bears Ears has except for the people


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

cowboy said:


> Calf creek holds some fond memories for me back before it was discovered as well. And the Escalante River. And The Fifty.


I did wildland fire for Escalante for 3 summers. On my days off I would always head for home in Cedar City. Now I kinda of regret not sticking around and seeing some more of that awesome area when I had a great opportunity. My other Cedar City buddies that were with me always talked about it, but we never did. Still did a lot of fun stuff in the evenings after work though.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

And given the nature of the job we had a lot of fun at work too! 🙂


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Go figure.









Resort to join growing developments outside of Zion National Park's east entrance


A local company announced Monday plans for a new luxury resort called




www.ksl.com


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Somebody smart can do the math. But how much water do 5 million tourists use while visiting Zion’s park and the rest of the second driest state in the nation? Utah will pimp anything for a dollar. 🙄
Middle fork I saw that article and threw up a little. Maybe the state motto should be Save it so we can ruin it!!!!


----------



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

The Coyote Gulch hike was a great horse ride before it was ruined by the Grand Staircase, you can no longer take horses or dogs, glad I made that trip a few times before they ruined it.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

cowboy said:


> Somebody smart can do the math. But how much water do 5 million tourists use while visiting Zion’s park and the rest of the second driest state in the nation? Utah will pimp anything for a dollar. 🙄
> Middle fork I saw that article and threw up a little. Maybe the state motto should be Save it so we can ruin it!!!!


They use at least as much as the skiers.








Utah ski resorts experienced record numbers despite pandemic


SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Utah ski resorts set a record for visitors this past winter despite coronavirus-related restrictions and a below average snowfall, according to industry data released Tuesday.




apnews.com


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

So, this thread started by the NPS getting mocked for going to a draw system for the Angels landing hike and is now stating that Zion is ruined because there are too many people visiting there? Maybe the fellers at the NPS knew what they were doing with their recent decision.  

The reality with Zion is due to its proximity to significant population centers, a regional transportation arterial going through the middle of it, and the sheer "WOW" factor of the place, large crowds are inevitable and the current management of the Zion Canyon part is very likely the best way it can be dealt with. If that ruins things for some folks, then so be it. Be happy that it is the economic force that it is. As other have said, if I want solitude, I go elsewhere, but I sure as heck made sure my kids got a chance or two to visit the place. 

One other quick thing. In our modern Facebook, Instagram, social media world, there are increasingly fewer and fewer secrets and if someone puts in a little effort, they can find a great many of our "secret" spots that we all have and enjoy. While land policy may have an effect in some areas like BENM, "they" (outsiders) will be increasingly be visiting our spots no matter what the gubmint does, who is in power, or where the spots are.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

They're also talking about putting in a new "glamping resort" up by Kolob. 😒


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

middlefork said:


> They use at least as much as the skiers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least when most of the skiers flush the toilette the water flows downhill towards the GSL. 

Down in Zions, Brice, BE, or Grand Staircase it heads to either Powell or Mead where Utah looses it.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> They're also talking about putting in a new "glamping resort" up by Kolob. 😒



"they" = *private land owners*. 

So, which would you prefer? BENM kept available to the public? Or turned over to the State so that it can be sold to a private interest that would then remove your access and put in a private glamping resort like the one proposed on private land "above Zion"? Seriously -- which way do you want it?


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

this whole thread has been very funny to read. I mean, Cowboy wants us to believe that he's the only person that ever ran cattle out on the desert, and enjoyed some form of solitude, and that it has all been ruined because more and more people are enjoying our public lands.

I could start naming places out on the desert that I've been that Cowboy hasn't, but that doesn't give me some exclusive right to the place -- nor does it justify my opinion that a place has been ruined because I don't have it to myself any longer.

I'll always be a fan of public lands.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Hey jackass I never said any of that. You are a fan of your own ego. And about as helpful making asinine comments as nipples are on a boar pig.


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Take your self righteousness pious attitude, turn it sideways and stuff it up your ass PHB. I have only expressed my own opinion. I never forced it on anyone. I remember now why this state is so screwed up. It’s liberal jackasses like you who expect everyone to walk in lock step with their agenda.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

OK, folks lets bring it back on topic.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

PBH said:


> "they" = *private land owners*.
> 
> So, which would you prefer? BENM kept available to the public? Or turned over to the State so that it can be sold to a private interest that would then remove your access and put in a private glamping resort like the one proposed on private land "above Zion"? Seriously -- which way do you want it?


I would rather the private land owners don't pimp out their land and bring more and more people to that corner of the world....for no selfish personal reasons of my own whatsoever....


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Catherder said:


> While land policy may have an effect in some areas like BENM, "they" (outsiders) will be increasingly be visiting our spots no matter what the gubmint does, who is in power, or where the spots are.


Unless we allow the "gubmint" to sell off our public lands to private landowners who then, in turn, lock us out....I'll take the national monuments any day over privatization.

Check out the Valles Caldera mess: OPINION | Privatization of public land not a success


----------



## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

I’m done. I’ve tried to give a different opinion. Won’t have gutless cowards lie about what I said and stand for it. Y’all enjoy.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Which part was the lie? Was it the part where I said your solitude had been ruined because too many people are recreating on the desert?

I can discuss this without name calling. But if you're already ready to pack your bags and go home, I guess that's your right. Like you're posts, my post also included "my opinion".


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

cowboy said:


> I’m done. I’ve tried to give a different opinion. Won’t have gutless cowards lie about what I said and stand for it. Y’all enjoy.


Huh?


----------



## Daisy (Jan 4, 2010)

cowboy said:


> Another internet tough guy. Super classy too!!! 🙄
> Hey moderator when is it enough???


This you?


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

That's the tough thing about Zion. The size of most park infrastructure is fixed and has been for decades which is why crowding is leading to lotteries.

But the private land by it? Just the last three years alone is mind boggling and we haven't reached peak yet. Unless the regional philosophy changes then the growth will continue and the implications of that sprawl are immense. But it takes a pretty heavy hand from the top to limit growth.

We had to switch to a small cabin for a trip in late October as temps dropped suddenly below our comfort level for camping with an infant. Holy cow, prices in Torrey, Escalante and Kanab have gotten nuts. It was hard to find a place for less than $100 and everything was mostly closed already; I use to be able to get a motel room in October for $25 and now average seems to be $200-250. Hard for locals to not develop when they can do ab AirBnB and pay off their mortgage in 1/4 the time.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Related.








2021 saw Utah's largest migration increase in over a decade


A new study shows that 2021 saw the largest migration surge to Utah in over a decade.




www.fox13now.com


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Another way the NPS is dealing with crowding but I suppose Arches is as ruined as Zion.....









Timed entry tickets for Arches National Park go on sale soon


NOTE: Timed entry tickets for Arches National Park can be purchased at recreation. gov beginning Jan. 3 at 8 a. m. Mountain Time. Arches National Park is one of the most iconic and recognizable parks in the nation - thanks to the famous Delicate Arch, which has come to represent Utah like the...




kutv.com


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I don't think my past self would believe my future self if I told them 20 years ago that there would be lines and eventually lotteries to enter Arches. 

It's such a bind. NPs exist for the people but have carrying capacities. I don't envy the managers. And I also feel for those people who never got to see them before this unsustainable wave of tourism. And they really don't control the tourism campaigns driving the interest.

I am shocked to see the Mighty Five campaign is still active. I understand why but hub towns like Moab and Springdale could really use some help with infrastructure and planning. 

With an infant we focused on state parks for the first time and it's clear they are getting spill over from NPs. Almost all the ones we visited are reserved far in advance. I never thought Kodachrome would be full in November!


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

backcountry said:


> I don't think my past self would believe my future self if I told them 20 years ago that there would be lines and eventually lotteries to enter Arches.
> 
> It's such a bind. NPs exist for the people but have carrying capacities. I don't envy the managers. And I also feel for those people who never got to see them before this unsustainable wave of tourism. And they really don't control the tourism campaigns driving the interest.
> 
> ...



I think Arches in particular presents some pressing challenges. The way the main road is situated and designed, and the immense popularity of some of its iconic features, lead to the available infrastructure being overwhelmed if intake isn't controlled. While it's sad to see, I agree with the decision here. 

With the "mighty five campaign", I think its all about money. The more people that come into a given area the more money gets taken in. At least with Moab/Arches, if one cannot get into the NP, there are a host of nearby alternatives that are almost as good.(or better) And since money talks, promotion will continue and the logistics will be dealt with "as they go". The hub towns certainly do need infrastructure help, but I can't help but notice each time I visit Springdale, Moab, or even Torrey, how much more wealth seems to be present compared to previous visits. They aren't sleepy little Southern Utah towns anymore.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Rocky Mountain National Park implemented a reservation system that started just last year I believe:









Timed Entry Permit System - Rocky Mountain National Park (U.S. National Park Service)







www.nps.gov





Arches needs to do something. A few years ago I drove through the area in February and vehicles were stretched almost from the entrance gates clear back to the Colorado River. All the other access points off of the highway to the north were packed solid. I wouldn't doubt that they go to a timed reservation system like Rocky Mountain National Park did. 

A big problem is that once you do get into the park you can not find a parking place. A few years ago I drove through Rocky Mountain NP and my girlfriend needed to tinkle. Once we got to the restrooms I had to circle the parking lot a dozen times as she was in doing her business. Even all the pull outs were full of folks out hiking with no where to park.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Just after I posted I saw this news announcement about Arches



https://news.yahoo.com/arches-national-park-pilot-ticketed-181630158.html


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I made an attempt to make sure my kids visited some of the more popular parks when they were young. After a trip to Yellowstone that we were unable to find a camp spot I decided they could visit them on their own if they became interested. I think that was somewhere around 1975. I may have done a day trip drive by since but found I much more enjoyed a little less crowded environment.

I always considered my self lucky that all my recreational pursuits seemed to start just before they started to become popular. Just born at a lucky time I guess.

The only one I can think of that has not grown is hunting. I think it is the only one that has lost participation.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I understand there is only one Angels Landing, Delicate Arch, Old Faithful, El Capitan, Grand Canyon etcetera and as such they will always be draws. To expect otherwise is foolish. But there will be a time when people need to be managed.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Yeah, Angels Landing was always going to become lotteried like Half Dome before it. 

I also feel lucky to have visited these places before this madhouse. I had some amazing experiences in all of these parks.

I'm sure we'll take my daughter and I can live with the difference to expose her to places that shaped who I am.

On a bigger note...I implemented a "show but don't tell" philosophy years ago. I'll take people I trust to the places I love but I rarely give out information. I did for a while and know what happened to such obscure places.


----------



## vuonganvu (Dec 9, 2021)

backcountry said:


> Yeah, Angels Landing was always going to become lotteried like Half Dome before it.
> 
> I also feel lucky to have visited these places before this madhouse. I had some amazing experiences in all of these parks.
> 
> ...


Lucky for you! I have planned to come there for several times but there always had sudden interruptions so I still haven't had a chance to come here.


----------



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

And it continues:








Want to see Arches? You’ll need a reservation


SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A Utah national park famed for its otherworldly sandstone arches will require visitors to get timed entry tickets during its high season next year, the second Utah park to implement such a system as visitation swells. Arches National Park officials said Friday they’re not...




www.stgeorgeutah.com


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Here is a report on how tourist cities have trouble staffing their police departments. The main reason? The real estate prices have jumped so much that it is hard for new police recruits to find an affordable place to live. 

Resort town housing crisis prevents police departments from retaining cops


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

vuonganvu said:


> Lucky for you! I have planned to come there for several times but there always had sudden interruptions so I still haven't had a chance to come here.


How hard is it to get to Zion from Cyprus?


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

How hard? that all depends on what kind of interruptions you encounter.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Catherder said:


> Here is a report on how tourist cities have trouble staffing their police departments. The main reason? The real estate prices have jumped so much that it is hard for new police recruits to find an affordable place to live.
> 
> Resort town housing crisis prevents police departments from retaining cops


I have a buddy that was gonna go work for UDOT out in Moab. He ended up declining the offer once he realized there was no way he could afford a place out there on a UDOT salary.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Not a day goes by where I am not thankful for the things I have. I'd hate to be a young family right now. All these new "Multi family dwellings", freaking condo's cost more then my 9 year old house.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I have a buddy that was gonna go work for UDOT out in Moab. He ended up declining the offer once he realized there was no way he could afford a place out there on a UDOT salary.


Moab isn't unique. Your buddy will have a hard time affording a place anywhere in Utah. He just as well bite the bullet and go into debt in a place he wants to be.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

PBH said:


> colorcountrygunner said:
> 
> 
> > I have a buddy that was gonna go work for UDOT out in Moab. He ended up declining the offer once he realized there was no way he could afford a place out there on a UDOT salary.
> ...


You could almost look at any of us, as far as affording a home on the starting salary that we were getting when we started out. 

I know that I had to save for a couple of years for a down payment before I purchased my first home and then I wondered how I was going to afford the payments. But making payments to the bank is better than making someone else's payments.

Where I am located at here in Colorado the state has trailer courts that their workers can pull a single or double wide trailer into if they are working in the area. School districts have multi person apartments for their single teachers, so on and so forth. 

The biggest problem that I see with quite a few young people is that they want to start at the top, in both wages and home size and will turn their noses up to what we used to call starter homes.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

My first house was $16,500. I think our combined income was about $12,000 annually. I just looked it up and see it appraised for $225,000. I have no idea what the payment would be.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Man, Cowboy went and lost his darn mind in this thread! That was spectacular. A bit mind boggling, but spectacular nonetheless. 

It’s sad to see how crowds are changing our (my) experiences in the outdoors. State and national parks, hikes, camping, backpacking, fishing, hunting…it’s all been changing noticeably over the last 15 years. It will continue to noticeably change over the next 15 years. We can always long for the good old days, but there is no putting this cat back into the bag, unfortunately.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Critter said:


> The biggest problem that I see with quite a few young people is that they want to start at the top, in both wages and home size and will turn their noses up to what we used to call starter homes.


Sad thing is, what was a starter home (single story rambler), is now an upgrade. Todays starter home, is a townhome, sharing a wall or two with other familys. It wasn't that long ago where townhomes did not exist in Utah valley.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I have a buddy that was gonna go work for UDOT out in Moab. He ended up declining the offer once he realized there was no way he could afford a place out there on a UDOT salary.


Moab was heading towards a commuter work force 20 years ago so I can't imagine what it's like now. It'll basically be the Telluride of the desert with all the nightly rental homes owned by out of towners.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Sad thing is, what was a starter home (single story rambler), is now an upgrade. Todays starter home, is a townhome, sharing a wall or two with other familys. It wasn't that long ago where townhomes did not exist in Utah valley.


If a person wants a home they need to start somewhere and if it is a townhome it's a townhome 
At least they would be building equity in something that they own. 

I had a friend do just that. He purchased a 2 bedroom apartment with other owners on 3 sides of it. After 5 years he sold it for close to double what he paid. He took that money and bought a real home.

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Critter said:


> If a person wants a home they need to start somewhere and if it is a townhome it's a townhome
> At least they would be building equity in something that they own.
> 
> I had a friend do just that. He purchased a 2 bedroom apartment with other owners on 3 sides of it. After 5 years he sold it for close to double what he paid. He took that money and bought a real home.
> ...


My thing is, I view it as a decline in the quality of life in Utah. Also an increase in the cost of living. It was one aspect I loved most about Utah. As the saying goes, "The secret is out". Now all these people are flooding into Utah, driving up the cost of living, and lowering the quality of life. Yep, I blame it on all this migration into the state. I like to think of it as "carrying capacity", and "resource competition." Not enough carrying capcity in Utah for this klind of population and maintain what we had, which in turn is driving up the cost and/or the availability on resources.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Not enough carrying capcity in Utah for this klind of population and maintain what we had, which in turn is driving up the cost and/or the availability on resources.


basic economics. This is not unexpected, unless you go by Brandon.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Back to the topic, the real estate costs are especially high in Moab, Springdale, or other tourist towns due to the influx of wealth coming into those areas. 

I like my chances of getting something inexpensive a lot better in Antimony, Delta, or Scipio as opposed to Moab.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Lone_Hunter said:


> My thing is, I view it as a decline in the quality of life in Utah. Also an increase in the cost of living. It was one aspect I loved most about Utah. As the saying goes, "The secret is out". Now all these people are flooding into Utah, driving up the cost of living, and lowering the quality of life. Yep, I blame it on all this migration into the state. I like to think of it as "carrying capacity", and "resource competition." Not enough carrying capcity in Utah for this klind of population and maintain what we had, which in turn is driving up the cost and/or the availability on resources.


This post is so ironic...


----------

