# Coyote Problem



## danthrax1 (Nov 10, 2010)

This is a topic that is coming up more and more but without any solutions. Everytime I ask the DWR about what is being done about the numbers of coyotes the answer is always the same, nothing. Depending on who you ask the DWR usually says that it does not have the resources available to combat the issue. By offering incentives for hunters to kill coyotes the state could deal with the coyote problem and with little or no resources to pay for it. One of the ways that the DWR can entice hunters is by possibly offering bonus points in the LE hunts to hunters who can kill a certain number of dogs. For example if a hunter kills 10 (or whatever number they determine) coyotes that will qualify him for an extra bonus point in the draws. They can limit the points to 1 per year. The division can then have certain places that the hunters can check in the coyotes to keep track. I'm not even sure if this seems logical but I'm tired of the DWR placing the majority of the blame on hunters for the decreasing deer herds while they put little or no effort into tackling the coyote problem.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

In Tuesday's meeting, Jim explained at length how the DWR does pursue coyotes on public and some private land.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Sounds like a perfect job for the DH's. Dog ears instead of hrs.


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## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

Iron Bear said:


> Sounds like a perfect job for the DH's. Dog ears instead of hrs.


I bet 1% of all DH's would do that and 0.5% would succeed.

If the state or SFW really thought there was a problem they would put a bounty back on them. No better way to encourage a hunt then put a little money on it. Just my opinion.

And yes we have government ADC guys that actively work on controlling the coyote numbers, so they are doing something. And i would rather those guys out killing all the coyotes then a bunch of boneheads educating them so it makes it harder for all of us.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Like yourself. :? What's up with the predator contest why are you participating then?

I don't think DH's are boneheads. :?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I think that Coyotes make most people who are willing to go after them look like boneheads........myself included. Most folks are better off continuing to take running shots at them from the road where they see them 3-4 times a year. I'm a fair shot and have been hunting coyotes for over ten years and I would guess that my kill average is somewhere around 30% of the coyotes that I call in or come in contact with. From what I've seen, anyone who claims to do much better than that is a tall-tale-teller.----------SS


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

EVERY deer hunter should be resolved to spending lots of time this winter trying to decrease the coyote population, coyote hunting contests be damned!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

As a matter of fact I am heading out in about an hour to chase some yotes. I am a DH and I'd be happy to provide ears over hours. I won't lie though I'm new to the yote hunting and I'm not exactly saving the deer herd by myself over here.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Jim also mentioned that fish and wildlife services, who does most of the states coyote control, is a little apprehensive about others educating dogs that they are targeting.

One thing that he has stressed many times is that in order to have an impact on deer numbers, 70% of the coyote population in a given area needs to be reduced. He added that just going out and killing coyotes at random times of the year is not going to do much. Coyote reduction needs to be done in specific areas at specific times of the year, only then will it have much of an impact on deer numbers.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong. Did the DWR spend 3 million for 1700 coyotes. Sound like a fiscal failure to me. 

Significantly reduce the cougar population and it will reduce the coyote population at the same time.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't know much about coyote hunting, (except that I know calling them _coyoteez_ is completely metro-sexual :lol: ). But I dare say most of us don't know much. I mean, shooting coyotes for sport or for coats is one thing. Shooting for the purpose of reducing predation is something else with some doubt as to whether shooting coyotes even has an impact on their population.

The predator control guys and the biologists that I've heard from on the subject, (including Karpowitz just last week), as well as most of the literature out there seem to agree that unless you kill the right coyotes at the right time, it doesn't do much good. And since that right time apparently coincides with fawning season, it would seem to me that a careless coyote hunter could actually do as much harm as good.

Would it be worthwhile for the DWR or somebody to produce educational materials for predator control of coyotes? Or is such material already available someplace I'm not seeing? If we're going to do it, may as well do it right.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Bring out the M-44's


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Iron Bear said:


> Bring out the M-44's


Holy smokes... I agree with Iron Bear on something 8)

-DallanC


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## Mezmarley (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, if we stay out of the area during fawning season (to keep stress as low as possible) then I'm pretty sure killing dogs the other 10 months out of the year SHOULD have a significant impact if we can kill enough...yes? Bring back a bounty and I'll bet you'll see people trapping again as well as callers getting better at their calling skills. Heck, with as many people using Foxpro's anymore, I'd argue the average caller today is much better than those of years past. Callers can have an impact, but trappers....that's where we can make a nice dent. I vote for bounty dollars!


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. Did the DWR spend 3 million for 1700 coyotes. Sound like a fiscal failure to me.
> 
> Significantly reduce the cougar population and it will reduce the coyote population at the same time.


Huh?? Explain that last sentence if you would. I've come across scores of cougar killed coyotes in my years as a houndsman. They are competitors and a lion will kill a coyote every chance it gets. If you want to see a spike in the coyote population, try wiping out all the lions in the area.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Biology 101, Coyotes are scavenger especially when it come's to big game. Cougar provide kills for coyote to scavenge. Less cougar = less deer and elk kills = less scavenge= less coyotes. Evident in the absence of rabbit population explosions. Today coyotes can survive even with a lack of rabbits. 

Or I suppose you can blame the rabbit population on winter kill and habitat loss. :roll:


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Iron Bear I agree with you to a point. Coyotes do scavenge but only if that is the easier way to obtain food. If you get rid of the cougars coyotes would do just fine because they are the most adaptive animal out there. Hell they'll eat berries, insects, spiders, grass, garbage, anything they can.


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## chukarhntr1 (Feb 24, 2010)

Ok. I've been thinking about posting this but have resisted until I saw this post.

You know how some Whitetail states have "earn-a-buck" programs, you have to shhot a doe before you can shoot a buck. Well Utah could do the same thing only you "earn-a-buck" by turning in a set of coyote ears. Just think of how the buck to doe ratio would increase.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Haven't all of you people realized that no matter what we want, type in this forum, or yell out at the RAC's, the WB will do the exact opposite? Why are any of you even wasting your precious time thinking of these logical solutions to these problems? It will get shoved back in your faces by the SMRT WUNS. Knowing how things have progressed, we would get a bounty going on yotes and then P.E.NIST.A. would step in and get a federal judge to outlaw it. We are fighting a loosing battle and the casualties are mounting exponentially. :OX/:


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## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

Iron Bear said:


> Like yourself. :? What's up with the predator contest why are you participating then?
> 
> I don't think DH's are boneheads. :?


I do try and get out and kill a few coyotes. Hey bear, i'm wondering if your pulling your weight and are out killing coyotes or just sitting behind your computer killing cupcakes??

Ps. it has nothing to do with saving the deer herds either, i could careless about your precious deer. I have way more fun chasing predators and non-protected species then i do hunting deer.


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## neverdrawn (Jan 3, 2009)

Iron bear please excuse my ignorance but what is an M-44? I'm thinking it is a device used to poison coyote's perhaps? If not I will tell you I've talked with several land owners with property on the Zion unit who claim the year they stopped using poisoning as a tool was the year they saw an increase in the predator populations. Also a much greater increase of predation on lambs which would lead me to believe it would also relate to fawn mortrality due to predation. I know there are issues involved but sure seems like poisoning was a viable way to help control the numbers. On another note my grandfather was a trapper who made a living in the winter trapping coyotes. He would bring home 3 or 4 on an average week through the winter months and somtimes even more. I know there is a much smaller market for fur now but if a person was willing to learn the art it would be more effective than calling in most cases. Just my two cents worth.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Jim also mentioned that fish and wildlife services, who does most of the states coyote control, is a little apprehensive about others educating dogs that they are targeting.
> 
> One thing that he has stressed many times is that in order to have an impact on deer numbers, 70% of the coyote population in a given area needs to be reduced. He added that just going out and killing coyotes at random times of the year is not going to do much. Coyote reduction needs to be done in specific areas at specific times of the year, only then will it have much of an impact on deer numbers.


+100

Also, the number of coyotes killed by wildlife services was 3,800. Jim also mentioned that wildlife services are in the process of trying to buy a helicopter which would lower their costs substantially in the future.


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## Yonni (Sep 7, 2007)

So from march to may we need to be out killin coyotes


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Yonni said:


> So from march to may we need to be out killin coyotes


That would be a good time. But by that time most of them are pretty educated.


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## bearhntr (Oct 6, 2008)

I have seen some interesting things with how adaptive coyotes are. For the first time I saw ( the tracks in the snow) where they were trying to take down a wounded cow elk. I shot a cow elk Saturday evening. I hit a bit high behind the shoulder. It was a clean pass through and with the amount of blood on the ground at the spot where I shot her I thought she would be just over the hill dead. I started on her tracks and tracked her till dark and decided to come back in the morning. After getting back up on her tracks she laid down and then the yote track started to tell the story. They came in on her and got her up out of her bed and began chasing her. Every time she would stop they would come in and get her moving again. After over a mile at over 9100' the tracks showed a scuffle in the snow. You could see where she was kicking and stomping at the ytoes and their tracks showed how they tried to dart in and out. She started going through the thickest brush possible and the coyotes would just pace her at about 10 yards below and above her. Tracked her all day and was unable to find her because those dang dogs! They chased her to hell and breakfast and then back again. I have never seen anything like this before! I have seen them go for deer when the snow was that deep and the deer could not move well while they stay on top and could attack at will causing the deer to fatigue and then go in for the kill. 

I love hunting coyotes and right now is when I have had the best success. They are starting to really den up so you can challenge them and usually get the big males to come in. I would think the best time to effect the population is after they have mated and go for the bitches as they will be caring pups in the belly. Stop them from having pups and they will start to decline. If you just kill the Alfa males another male will step in and get the job done. Kill the Alfa females after they have bread there will be no pore pups for that pack. Then get them during the fawning season and have a real effect on their population.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

neverdrawn said:


> Iron bear please excuse my ignorance but what is an M-44?


Basically its a buried cyanide device that the coyote comes up and bites, pulls on to activate it. Once activated, a small charge shoots cyanide up into its open mouth.

http://www.predatordefense.org/m44s.htm










-DallanC


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## bearhntr (Oct 6, 2008)

I am all for the M-44 as well. They used to use cyanide tainted meat south of Ceder Fort until it was outlawed and the cattle rancher also said after they could not do it any more there was a huge jump in coyote numbers in his area.


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## EmptyNet (Mar 17, 2008)

W2U


> Also, the number of coyotes killed by wildlife services was 3,800. Jim also mentioned that wildlife services are in the process of trying to buy a helicopter which would lower their costs substantially in the future.


Could you explain more, how much did it cost for the 3800 dead yotes? A new heli cant be cheap, new r66 about 800,000, operating cost about 300/hr, thats without a pilot.

Have they looked into powered parachutes? I know they could use a heli for a lot of other things than predator control, but that money could buy a fleet of powered parachutes. They could buy a few for each region, new two person powered parachute less than 20,000, any current DWR employee could be trained to fly one. You can easily move them around on trailers to areas that need coyotes thinned out. I think it would be a cost effective way to kill coyotes, if you have ever been up in one you know how much good they would do.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Biology 101, Coyotes are scavenger especially when it come's to big game. Cougar provide kills for coyote to scavenge. Less cougar = less deer and elk kills = less scavenge= less coyotes. Evident in the absence of rabbit population explosions. Today coyotes can survive even with a lack of rabbits.
> 
> Or I suppose you can blame the rabbit population on winter kill and habitat loss. :roll:


So what's with the straw man tactics Ironbear??

Sorry, but that post makes absolutely no sense.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

bearhntr said:


> If you just kill the Alfa males another male will step in and get the job done. Kill the Alfa females after they have bread there will be no pore pups for that pack. Then get them during the fawning season and have a real effect on their population.


This stuff was pretty well explained in the presentation on December first. During the presentation it was explained that if the alpha male is killed during the wrong time--away from the breeding season--another male would just step in. However, if the alpha male is killed during the breeding season it will stop the female from giving birth that year...so you would stop that female from giving birth to any pups during that calendar year because coyotes will only come in to heat once during a year.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

EmptyNet said:


> W2U
> 
> 
> > Could you explain more, how much did it cost for the 3800 dead yotes? A new heli cant be cheap, new r66 about 800,000, operating cost about 300/hr, thats without a pilot.To be honest, I don't know the answer to the question. I am just telling you what was stated in the meeting on December 1st. The though was that more units could see wildlife services killing coyotes and lowering populations if costs were reduced and a new helicopter was one way they were looking at reducing costs.
> ...


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> This stuff was pretty well explained in the presentation on December first. During the presentation it was explained that if the alpha male is killed during the wrong time--away from the breeding season--another male would just step in. However, if the alpha male is killed during the breeding season it will stop the female from giving birth that year...so you would stop that female from giving birth to any pups during that calendar year because coyotes will only come in to heat once during a year.


Fact.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Killing the female any month of the year keeps her from having a litter as well. Don't be fooled by the mis-use of some biological facts. True killing key animals at certain times is ideal.......but in the grand scheme of things every controlled predator is a small victory. --------SS


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## huntinco (Sep 23, 2007)

It's nice to see everyone is finaly able to see one of the biggest problems facing our mulyes. Killing yotes is not easy and its expensive no matter how you cut it. 800hr to fly and yes you can kill then crap out of them from the air. Lions as someone mentioned are not the problem I repeat they are not the problem. I have hired yotes to be killed by foot, heli, cute plane and trapping all by expert killers and I can honestly say that without them letting us use poisions again a hell a lot of heli work is our only hope period


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Absolutely. Rat poison in hotdogs liberally distributed anyone?


-DallanC


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

what if you were to put poison on the gut piles of the deer and elk harvested during hunting season what would that do


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

That would probably get you a federal fine/jail sentence, at least here in the bottom of the state where there are California condors. And you've got lots of other wild scavengers as well, some of them protected. And don't forget those pesky pets that run loose in the neighborhood (and beyond). Poison may be an answer but only in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing and is authorized to use it! Don't try this at home!!!!


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## duneman101 (Nov 6, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Absolutely. Rat poison in hotdogs liberally distributed anyone?
> 
> -DallanC


Heck no, I can keep my dog from eating a deer carcass or poison from a can, but not a hotdog! :roll:


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## ripndrag (Mar 16, 2009)

I guess ill just shoot them did you know that if you use a half opened can of smoked hearing its better than a call just hang it in a tree overnite about 6 ft up then go get them dogs in the morning last time I did it worked great


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I don't think all the females breed at the same time. My uncle killed a yote during the sage grouse hunt in Sept. She was out about 3-350 yds she went down with the first shot but got shortly after and he hit her again as she was trying to make her way back to the den and she had a den full of young pups.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Tell you what, if I'm a dry farmer out in western Box Elder county for instance, and the state starts talking about an eradication program for coyotes, I'd be up in arms. Last thing I would want or could afford is to be overrun with rabbits and deer because the DWR killed off all the coyotes. We'd now be asking farmers to bear a heavier finacial burden to support our hunting ambitions. If I was a farmer, I'd be pissed.

Now I'm not a farmer, and I have no love for coyotes. I carry a rifle about everytime I'm in the hills and coyotes don't get a free pass from me. But you can bet a state sponsored eradication program for coyotes would meet some oppostion from more than just antis.

Just a heads up.


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## Mezmarley (Nov 25, 2007)

Yes, but its still one less dog walking the earth.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Kevin D said:


> But you can bet a state sponsored eradication program for coyotes would meet some oppostion from more than just antis.
> 
> Just a heads up.


You may be right, but it's a risk I can live with. :O||:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Another easy way to kill coyotes is by using surgical gloves when you gut out a deer. Then leave the surgical gloves with the gut pile. Coyotes will eat the gloves and die because it stops their digestive tracts.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Tell you what, if I'm a dry farmer out in western Box Elder county for instance, and the state starts talking about an eradication program for coyotes, I'd be up in arms. Last thing I would want or could afford is to be overrun with rabbits and deer because the DWR killed off all the coyotes. We'd now be asking farmers to bear a heavier finacial burden to support our hunting ambitions. If I was a farmer, I'd be ****


Nonsense deer can be controlled by hunters. Farmers have nothing to worry about. Surplus deer and rabbits can be harvested by hunters. I would even support a coupon attached to a permit much like Wyoming does so that landowners can receive money or also farmers could charge a trespass fee.


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## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

Kevin D said:


> Tell you what, if I'm a dry farmer out in western Box Elder county for instance, and the state starts talking about an eradication program for coyotes, I'd be up in arms. Last thing I would want or could afford is to be overrun with rabbits and deer because the DWR killed off all the coyotes. We'd now be asking farmers to bear a heavier finacial burden to support our hunting ambitions. If I was a farmer, I'd be ****
> 
> Now I'm not a farmer, and I have no love for coyotes. I carry a rifle about everytime I'm in the hills and coyotes don't get a free pass from me. But you can bet a state sponsored eradication program for coyotes would meet some oppostion from more than just antis.
> 
> Just a heads up.


Your spot on!! One person's solution quickly becomes someone's elses problem. And anyone that thinks hunters can control rabbits like the coyotes do have alot to learn about life.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Hunters would have no problems taking care of a rabbit problem with a few shotguns. It would be good practice for youth hunters.


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## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

Everything needs to be in check but a total eradication would effect other areas of the eco system.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

The ecosystem will never be balanced. We can manage deer and rabbits a lot better than coyotes can. The Utah ecosystem hasn't been hurting for decades since we killed off the wolf.


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> The ecosystem will never be balanced. We can manage deer and rabbits a lot better than coyotes can. *The Utah ecosystem hasn't been hurting for decades since we killed off the wolf*.


That depends on if you are the wolf. 

Seriously, what is the "Utah Ecosystem"? Technically there is not one Utah Ecosystem. Utah has many differing Ecosystems, and not all of them have been functioning well. 
Then there is the viewpoints of different stakeholders (not just the hunters),on how well the Ecosystems of Utah have been fairing.

I think we could all agree on this though.....a healthy Ecosystem is good for all stakeholders, but we would probably differ on what constitutes a healthy ecosystem.


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## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

coyoteslayer said:


> The ecosystem will never be balanced. We can manage deer and rabbits a lot better than coyotes can. *The Utah ecosystem hasn't been hurting for decades since we killed off the wolf*.


Are you serious about this one???? Isn't this post about a coyote problem?? I'm getting really confused, do we have a problem or not?? Please shed some light on this coyoteslayer.

There are alot of people talking about our hurting deer herds but the ecosystem isn't hurting????????? :?: :?: :?: o-||


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Are you serious about this one???? Isn't this post about a coyote problem?? I'm getting really confused, do we have a problem or not?? Please shed some light on this coyoteslayer.
> 
> There are alot of people talking about our hurting deer herds but the ecosystem isn't hurting?????????


You seemed to have missed a few keys words so I will need to help you out.

The Utah ecosystem hasn't been hurting for decades since *we killed off the wolf.*

Sure the deer herds are hurting because of a variety of different reasons. I never said they weren't. No where in my post will you find the word DEER. Maybe you should stick to what I have said.

The wolf isn't the missing link to the deer issues that we have right now.


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## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

Are the deer a part of the ecosystem???? 

Also, since your name is COYOTESLAYER, how many coyotes have you killed this year??? Just making sure your doing your part!!!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Are the deer a part of the ecosystem????


Again you still seemed confused or you forgot what you first said on this subject so let me refresh your memory.

Here is your quote:



> Everything needs to be in check but a total eradication would effect other areas of the eco system.


The wolves were eradicated and the ecosystem isn't suffering because of the wolf is gone. Is that simple enough for you?



> Also, since your name is COYOTESLAYER, how many coyotes have you killed this year??? Just making sure your doing your part!!


Not enough coyotes!!!


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## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

No numbers, i thought you'd be proud of them!!! Reading your other post you have no problem "braggin"


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

-_O- -_O- -_O- -_O-


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> The ecosystem will never be balanced. We can manage deer and rabbits a lot better than coyotes can. The Utah ecosystem hasn't been hurting for decades since we killed off the wolf.


So, does abundant numbers of ungulates equal a healthy ecosystem? What number would that be for Utah? 800,000 deer and 100,000 elk? I'd speculate that the deer population in the 60's wasn't part of a balanced and heathy ecosystem. I think removing human impact from nature altogether for 20-30 years would probably provide a good example of a "healthy" ecosystem. I also think the resulting number of predators vs. prey would be very surprising.

The facts are that human beings manipulate nature to our advantage and desires, not for a "healthy ecosystem". Even when we do things in the name of a "healthy ecosystem", we are ultimately doing it for our own selfish reasons. We want maximum numbers of animals that are desirable to us, not for the benefit of nature. We want coyote numbers reduced, wolves kept out of Dodge and any other competitors out of the picture for our benefit. Thinking otherwise is misguided and self deceptive.


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## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

Very well said Treehugger!!!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> So, does abundant numbers of ungulates equal a healthy ecosystem? What number would that be for Utah? 800,000 deer and 100,000 elk? I'd speculate that the deer population in the 60's wasn't part ofa balance and heathy ecosystem. I think removing human impact from nature altogether for 20-30 years would probably provide a good example of a "healthy" ecosystem. I also think the resulting number of predators vs. prey would be very surprising.
> 
> Treehugger, I know we have went the rounds on this topic about wolves. 800,000 deer would be awesome, but it's impossible right now with the amount of winter range we have. Humans have always been a part of nature.
> 
> ...


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Human population doesn't ebb and flow with prey populations. That'd be one BIG difference.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

If Humans only ate meat then our population would follow that of our prey. The human population didn't start increasing until farming.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Sure, but we are where we are.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

As hunters, I think we become so focused on our own wants and needs that we forget that we are not the only ones that have a stake in wildlife management. Everytime we as humans try to intervene to promote or demote one particular species, there is a ripple effect throughout the ecosystem by other species directly or indirectly affected. Not just animals either, but plants as well. Just like physics, for every action there is a reaction.......and sometimes the waves flow in unexpected directions. That was my point about the dry farmer.

Not to harp on you coyoteslayer, but do you honestly believe that more government/human intervention into the natural world is a good thing??


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Not to harp on you coyoteslayer, but do you honestly believe that more government/human intervention into the natural world is a good thing??


I see nothing wrong with hunters harvesting animals to control the population. I don't see it causing problems in the "natural world" Man has always killed animals.


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Jim also mentioned that fish and wildlife services, who does most of the states coyote control, is a little apprehensive about others educating dogs that they are targeting.
> 
> One thing that he has stressed many times is that in order to have an impact on deer numbers, 70% of the coyote population in a given area needs to be reduced. He added that just going out and killing coyotes at random times of the year is not going to do much. Coyote reduction needs to be done in specific areas at specific times of the year, only then will it have much of an impact on deer numbers.


Just an observation, but you are trusting in the DWR to manage yotes when they have proven to be a failure with the deer herds?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Kevin D said:


> As hunters, I think we become so focused on our own wants and needs that we forget that we are not the only ones that have a stake in wildlife management. Everytime we as humans try to intervene to promote or demote one particular species, there is a ripple effect throughout the ecosystem by other species directly or indirectly affected. Not just animals either, but plants as well. Just like physics, for every action there is a reaction.......and sometimes the waves flow in unexpected directions. That was my point about the dry farmer.
> 
> Not to harp on you coyoteslayer, but do you honestly believe that more government/human intervention into the natural world is a good thing??


Kevin one thing that we have to remember about the hunter is that we have done more for conservation in North American than any other group by FAR! Typically when we do something that benefits deer it also benefits several other species. That concept also applies to predators, more game for us means more game for them. We disrupted "natural balance" a long time ago. Now we have a responsiblity to manage it the best we can and only through human intervention will we be able to conserve what we have left and hunters are the tip of the sword in that movement.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

DWR doesn't manage coyotes, they are not under their domain. Fish and wildlife services handles coyote control and it is very expensive. 

I don't put much of the blame for low deer numbers on the division. They can't control weather and deer stepping in front of vehicles or the change in grazing practices and the illegality of 1080 and other methods used for coyote eradication. The bottom line is that the incentive to shoot coyotes is at an all time low and cougars are a valuable commodity alive. One guy wants high cougar #'s for his own reasons, while the next guy wants more deer.

Who's right? Are the traditional deer numbers that the old timers accustomed to even attainable under current conditions? I'd speculate that it's not. Can we grow more deer? Yes, but obviously there would have to a huge increase in funding, philosophy and incentives for average folks to get out there and be effective at the right times of the year in the right areas.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Who's right? Are the traditional deer numbers that the old timers accustomed to even attainable under current conditions?


A friend of mine keeps reminding me that only deer hunters feel like there aren't enough deer in Utah. He tells me anytime you think there aren't enough try driving my route to work at 5 AM and you'll wish there were less.


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

goonsquad said:


> Just an observation, but you are trusting in the DWR to manage yotes when they have proven to be a failure with the deer herds?


As Tree said....the DWR does not manage coyotes. Even for those that have that responsibility coyotes have proven to be highly adaptable.
Now I know this will be a highly controversial suggestion for some on this forum but, the best _natural_ control for coyotes are wolves. Coyotes have proven they are hard to control. Wolves are much easier to manage......now, before anyone goes screaming at me, let me say....Wolves are only easier to manage when we are allowed to manage them. Right now we are not being allowed to manage them.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Kevin D said:


> As hunters, I think we become so focused on our own wants and needs that we forget that we are not the only ones that have a stake in wildlife management.


Great point. And isn't there something inherently messed up about the idea of killing animals so that we can have more animals to kill? Where's the _conservation_ in that?


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## blackbear (Oct 18, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Fish and wildlife services handles coyote control and it is very expensive.


 You are confusing 2 totally seperate federal entities. The US fish & Wildlife Services(USF&W) handles federally protected species(ie waterfowl, migratory birds, endangered species) it is controlled under the Interior Dept.

Wildlife Services(WS) or Agriculture Damage Control(ADC) handles the control of coyotes and other problem animals that are causing damage or a nuisance to agriculture or other economic interests. It is administered under the Dept. of Agriculture. The last official #'s I saw from WS, was that they killed over 1.5 million animals nationally in 2005. Granted, those numbers rise quickly when they are scattergunning flocks of thousands of starlings off grain fields in the midwest, but the #'s are staggering, none the less. If the citizenry knew of these government trappers true behavior, it would pale in comparison to the outrage of groups like peta. I know of a bear in a government snare, that has never been checked to this day. It suffered until it finally died after a week in the snare. The bear is property of the state, and the death order was never approved by a state biologist. Not only is this a violation of the state law and the MOU the DWR has with WS, it amounts to poaching and animal cruelty.
The funds that support WS should be sent to the state, and the state should be allowed to hire trappers and control wildlife populations. A federal agency getting involved is both unconstitutional and illegal.


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