# Sevier River Roosters



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Anybody hunted the release areas near Otter Creek? Any recommendations? 

I haven't been over there in years but my wife and I are doing a quick retreat before her pregnancy gets too far along. Going to do some fly fishing but also hoping to bring along the over under. 

Can't wait, this will only be my second time out for upland this year. I need a day in the field.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

All I will say is that some buddies and I were down there for another hunt a few years ago and stopped by the river to fish. This rooster (obviously pen raised) basically came up to us and we fed it nightcrawlers. I doubt it had much of a long term survival there. 

So my suggestion, is, uh, bring bait? -Ov-


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Sounds similar to Cedar. We've had to kick them away from us in the past. 

Not very sporting but the dinner tastes just as good.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Pen raised birds...…..Huh, and some folks complain about high fence big game hunting. What's the difference? One has wings and the other has fur.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I would be fine with the state ending the practice but I'll shoot the invasive species until they do. Keeps me active and puts food on the table. But I'd be fine with the DWR using monies for another species or project.

I'd much prefer l lived closer to S. Dakota. I'd really love doing a pheasant hunt there with my dad in the near future. I know he really enjoyed the midwest hunts as a kid.

Until then....


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

taxidermist said:


> Pen raised birds...&#8230;..Huh, and some folks complain about high fence big game hunting. What's the difference? One has wings and the other has fur.


Birds fly over fences.

High fence (killed in pen) is the most pathetic excuse for hunting. CWD, Impure genetics, petri dish other diseases.

I'd rather hunt a free range Jack Rabbit than kills 400' high fence Elk.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Pheasants are invasive species?
Someone on the crack pipe?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

shaner said:


> Pheasants are invasive species?
> Someone on the crack pipe?


Definitely non-native. No ecological benefit. And I think it's fair to consider releasing such species into narrow bands of marginal (slowly improving) habitat in southern utah questionable at best. Doesn't help that I've seen 2 hawks shot down during the pheasant hunt in southern Utah, though hard to blame such wanton, and likely illegal, waste on the bird.

Further north, assessments may be different. Midwest, evidence seems to point that the abundance of quality habitat means they coexist well with native species.

I'll hunt the birds as long as DWR releases them as it's a great excuse to be active this time of the year. But the tradition down here is long past justifiable.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

backcountry said:


> Midwest, evidence seems to point that the abundance of quality habitat means they coexist well with native species.
> .


Given the drastic declines and reduced ranges of the Prairie chicken species, I don't think having an invasive competitive species like pheasants does them any favors


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Pen raised birds are good eatin ! I do miss trophy tail feathers though


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

johnnycake said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> > Midwest, evidence seems to point that the abundance of quality habitat means they coexist well with native species.
> ...


We'll I guess that's what I get for not vetting a pro-hunting source &#128556;&#128518;

Tasty birds but they are a bit of conservation quagmire.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

the discussion reminds me of Capitol Reef National Park. It confuses me that the Park will high-fence the non-native flora to protect it from being eaten by native ungulates.


I saw a pheasant once up near the top of Haleakala. Poor thing looked terrible.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Introduced, yes.
Invasive, I wish!!!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Invasive is 100% value based as it's defined by negative impact which depends on the species you value. Introducing a non-native species into a region whose riparian areas have been in problematic condition for decades (or longer) qualifies as deleterious to me and therefore invasive. If our riparian ecosystems weren't undergoing decades long drought and the pressure of sprawl on top of it I might his different conclusion.

For perspective....they release the birds into Quichapa outside Cedar City. Our county's water project all but guarantee continued low levels there for years to come. I'm fine with that (I like water for my house) but it matters when dealing with these obligates. That habitat is increasingly in trouble. This isn't an area that has much in the way of waste grain so, in theory, (if they actually survived more than a few days) their forage would overlap with just about every other relevant species trying to survive in that areas suboptimal habitat. That scenario is only going to get worse as the Cedar City population continues to explode. 

Others may differ but it's not smoking crack to call pen raised birds released in such areas invasive. They are a fun reason to get out on a November morning and taste great. But the program down here is a bit silly at best. But I'm a fan of prioritizing native species that are largely self-sustaining.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

PBH said:


> the discussion reminds me of Capitol Reef National Park. It confuses me that the Park will high-fence the non-native flora to protect it from being eaten by native ungulates.
> 
> I saw a pheasant once up near the top of Haleakala. Poor thing looked terrible.


They do that? Not study sites?

I say unleash full pressure on such species. Hell, just bring in domestic goats for a few days and only let them graze on those sites (they were doing that in Denver for certain grasses and/or hard to reach areas).

That said I know Park units have different administrative constraints. We do live in a world with plenty of contradictions


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

backcountry said:


> They do that? Not study sites?
> 
> I say unleash full pressure on such species. Hell, just bring in domestic goats for a few days and only let them graze on those sites (they were doing that in Denver for certain grasses and/or hard to reach areas).
> 
> That said I know Park units have different administrative constraints. We do live in a world with plenty of contradictions


Keep domestic goats and sheep as far from wild sheep habitat as possible!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> They do that? Not study sites?


LOL. Yes, they do that. They are called "orchards". Fruit trees. Apples, apricots, peaches, etc. The orchards are on the National Register of Historic Places.

So, yes, they put up high fences to keep the deer out.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Keep domestic goats and sheep as far from wild sheep habitat as possible!


Wild sheep in Capitol Reef? They should be, and frequently are in the area. But due to proximity to domestic livestock, State agencies try to keep them away....


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> I saw a pheasant once up near the top of Haleakala. Poor thing looked terrible.


We saw a bunch of chukar up there many moons ago when the Mrs and I visited the island. Seemed appropriate.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

PBH said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> > They do that? Not study sites?
> ...


Too funny. Totally missed that freebie.

Different mandates for sure.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

PBH,

You had me laughing half the day. Walked right into that one.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Catherder wins the prize. Only bird I've flushed was while fishing today. Smart rooster flushed towards the highway.

Whoever was responsible for the restoration at Kingston Canyon should be proud. It's a great stream and has some fairly diverse habitat when you add in the WIA.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> Whoever was responsible for the restoration at Kingston Canyon should be proud. It's a great stream and has some fairly diverse habitat when you add in the WIA.


Minivan would be livid to hear someone say that...

That was one of the best purchases the DWR ever made. And, yes, the restoration was done very well. Well done Stan. Keep it up Nick.

Backcountry -- I'll start a new thread. It will give you some history.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

As someone who lays bare plenty of criticism it seems only fair to highlight a quality project. I know how much work (physical and paper) it takes to pull off something like that. For many managers that can be a once in a lifetime opportunity.

I hadn't been back in far too long. Saw elk moving through last night. Pushed ducks yesterday. Rooster today. Caught a couple beautiful trout.

Some of the bank work has shifted since my last visit but that seems like a certainty. Was fun recalling stretches that my friend and I fished years ago together. Granted my technique has suffered since then.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

backcountry said:


> Catherder wins the prize. Only bird I've flushed was while fishing today. Smart rooster flushed towards the highway.
> 
> Whoever was responsible for the restoration at Kingston Canyon should be proud. It's a great stream and has some fairly diverse habitat when you add in the WIA.


Did you try any bait?


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Invasive roosters or urban sprawl? Imo, we talk about the first too much and the second not near enough.

As to prairie chickens, sage grouse, etc, i don't see pheasants as the main or even remotely a secondary issue. It's overall loss of habitat and agricultural practices that are pushing native birds to the brink. Sure, we could put more cultivated ground back to its native state, but the results are a mixed bag at best with fragmentation unless you can lump large blocks together...which is becoming increasingly difficult as time goes on and larger tracts get subdivided to multiple heirs with differing views / priorities.


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

Invasive means that the released pheasants would take over 
Like carp in Utah lake
Or phragmites anywhere the ground is moist

IF ONLY we had to deal with invasive pheasants. My dogs would love me. 
For those that hate on the releases or pheasant hunting in Utah in general don’t hunt them -seriously- more for me! But don’t complain & b***h and ruin it for those that still appreciate the opportunity to chase birds with their beloved dogs. Go spend your money on your elk or deer or sage grouse, etc. It’s your money not mine. But don’t ruin what I and thousands of others hunt in this great state. just because you don’t like it or have to work harder to bag a bird than you did 30 years ago. If you want more birds tell your wife she’s just fine in the house you live in, kill any skunk/ **** you see and donate to your favorite local conservation org. 

Rant over
Happy thanksgiving!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Invasive doesn't mean they have to take over. While there isn't a uniform definition, the underlying elements common to most definitions are non-native and deleterious in some fashion. I think they qualify in places like Quichapa as I've explained elsewhere.

And I won't stop criticisms. I don't think it's my job to shut up because others enjoy them. I'm not even actively writing the board to do away with the silly program down here. But releasing a pen raised bird into increasingly fragmented and deteriorating habitat in which native species already struggle is problematic from my standpoint. And I think there aren't many science based arguments for conservation that justify the choice down in this particular location.

Mileage may vary elsewhere, especially up north in which I've already said the context is different. Heck, even Kingston Canyon offers a different context as it involves some previous agricultural land (sections of WIA) that is intentionally managed different than the BLM at Quichapa. 

I'm also curious how youth hunt structure are justified from an ethical standpoint. One participant down here a few years back said they actually put them in bags and spun them before being released literally in front of the kids. If that's true, that is abhorrent. Youth should be role modeled the same ethics and standards as adults though I understand the desire for early season access. Spinning a pen raised bird to make it easier to shoot is just plain unethical even if we want to recruit youth. 

I think it's actually my duty to criticize such programs and behaviors as an ethical hunter. I don't expect everyone to agree but if we can't stand tall and say our programs are both ethical and well justified from the conservation claims we often make then I think we are actually more vulnerable, not stronger. And what I've seen down at this location I firmly believe makes our sport more vulnerable to the anti-hunting crowd.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

MWScott72,

I agree it's hard to have a meaningful conversation without including the impact of fragmentation. I can't speak to up north but around Cedar sprawl is getting epic. Old ranch land is being subdivided faster than I can type out this post. For us that's more likely to affect ungulate winter range but we also have some small game that will be impacted. 

Will be interesting to see how the slow and steady redirection of water for Quichapa impacts waterfowl. When I first moved here the diversity of waterfowl on that transient lake was pretty phenomenal. Heck, we had whitefaced ibis on campus one year there was so much water. The drought really reduced the diversity of birds that use it as a spot on the seasonal flyover. I think the water project makes that slow degradation all but certain. I benefit from the aquifer recharge program as a homeowner but it has consequences for wildlife. The demand for water as sprawl happens is really going to impact this transition range.


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## Papa Moses (Sep 27, 2018)

Backcountry I’m surprised with this thread you’re still read after everyone muted you from your COVID opinions too. 
Too bad no one wrote you in for President. Now we got sleepy joe. 
With your opinions on the virus we will have ample birds to hunt


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Papa Moses said:


> Backcountry I'm surprised with this thread you're still read after everyone muted you from your COVID opinions too.
> Too bad no one wrote you in for President. Now we got sleepy joe.
> With your opinions on the virus we will have ample birds to hunt


It's unfortunate so many subscribe to the strategy of "When in doubt, go personal." At best, going personal is an informal admission your argument is flawed and failing.

It's seems self-evident that your conclusion is wrong about "everyone" ignoring me. But more to those that do. It's a great tool.

I assume you are able to make arguments on merit not some random political jabs or ad hominem attacks.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Back to another point... I'm actually more inclined to hunt species I consider invasive if the state is releasing them as I don't want them to establish here. Not going to happen given its just roosters but it's actually motivation to seek them out. Luckily they are tasty and fun to hunt as well.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

-O,--O,--O,--O,--O,--O,-


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