# FTW, 2020 big game draw odds



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/bg-odds.html


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

That’s kinda painful to look through. Think I’ll give up on any kind of rifle pool and cash in on a Wasatch archery elk one of these years.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Who the heck would burn 8 bonus points for Wasatch West General Season Deer? :shock:


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

My favorite stat in there is the Book Cliffs roadless cow bison hunt.

13 resident tags
16 resident applicants

I never thought I'd see a OIAL hunt so easy to draw. Curious to see how many of those hunters tag out.


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

Well no wonder I didnt draw my antelope tag... They cut the permits in half this year on the unit!!! I thought I was a lock for a bonus permit... I called the Biologist before applying and he eluded to there being a slight increase in permits this year with the new antelope management plan. Would be nice to know the permit numbers before I applied for that hunt. Its like playing the game of darts blindfolded!!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Clarq said:


> My favorite stat in there is the Book Cliffs roadless cow bison hunt.
> 
> 13 resident tags
> 16 resident applicants
> ...


If they don't tag out all they have to do is threaten a law suit or bitch enough and they'll get to hunt the unit again in 2021 on the same tag.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> If they don't tag out all they have to do is threaten a law suit or bitch enough and they'll get to hunt the unit again in 2021 on the same tag.


Or call the janitor in the SE region dwr office and ask if it would ok if they hunted the entire book cliffs unit instead. Just record the conversation and you'll be good to go.

Some of these new units they have every now and then can be good options to jump the wait line if you aren't scared to gamble. Seems like everyone waits to see what happens the first year before they jump in and apply. I bet next year the draw odds won't be nearly that good, especially if the success rates are decent


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The road less area is going to draw fewer hunters just because it is road less. 

Not very many hunters are going to try and hump out a full grown bison out of those canyons. So unless you have a horse or hire a outfitter with horses it has very limited appeal.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> The road less area is going to draw fewer hunters just because it is road less.
> 
> Not very many hunters are going to try and hump out a full grown bison out of those canyons. So unless you have a horse or hire a outfitter with horses it has very limited appeal.


Swap Mesa is a pretty chit hole and lots of dude hoof it into there every year... is the roadless area any worse than that?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

MooseMeat said:


> Swap Mesa is a pretty chit hole and lots of dude hoof it into there every year... is the roadless area any worse than that?


Quite a bit.

That I know of the ones that are hunting Swap Mesa also have horses or they wait until there is snow on the ground to get the meat out.

The road less area you depend on only two things, your back or a horse.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Critter said:


> The road less area is going to draw fewer hunters just because it is road less.
> 
> Not very many hunters are going to try and hump out a full grown bison out of those canyons. So unless you have a horse or hire a outfitter with horses it has very limited appeal.


That's not the case for LE elk, Book cliffs road-less and road units have fairly comparable draw odds and muzzy hunt road-less was harder to draw...weird that cow bison went for so low of points, wish I wasn't tied to the sheep anchor although I figure if I ever wanted to kill a big woolly I could pay the res a few grand and drive right up to it! ;-) Can't do that with sheep


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Man they screwed up the Henry’s bison hunts. Good grief!


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Airborne said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> > The road less area is going to draw fewer hunters just because it is road less.
> ...


How do you get access to the res?

I saw that too, Vanilla. Kinda upsetting


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Ray said:


> How do you get access to the res?


Well, ya pay em! Most tribes that have big woolly's sell hunts to the white man, South Dakota has a bunch and the Ute's offer a few as well. I had a buddy who won one on a raffle. It was a rodeo but he had a good time and killed a cow buff. Lot's of roads all over the res.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have always said that if I wanted a canned hunt like that I would prefer for them to do it at the slaughter house. No meat wasted and a single small hole in the hide. 

There was a ranch hunt in Utah somewhere around Hinkley if I remember right. You picked out the bison that you wanted and they loaded it up into a stock trailer. Then they took it out onto the ranch and turned it loose for you to shoot it.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Critter said:


> I have always said that if I wanted a canned hunt like that I would prefer for them to do it at the slaughter house. No meat wasted and a single small hole in the hide.
> 
> There was a ranch hunt in Utah somewhere around Hinkley if I remember right. You picked out the bison that you wanted and they loaded it up into a stock trailer. Then they took it out onto the ranch and turned it loose for you to shoot it.


Ha! That's a miserable "hunt". Are those res hunts canned hunts? I need to figure something out... at this rate, I'll die before I draw a tag for one.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I'd say that a lot of them are. But there are others that aren't. It's mostly in what you pay for. 

Even a lot of ranch hunts are only 3 days, including the day you arrive and the day you leave. 

There is one up in South Dakota that for $4200 you get to shoot one and they butcher and quick freeze it for you. But that is for a 3-4 year old meat bull.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Critter said:


> I'd say that a lot of them are. But there are others that aren't. It's mostly in what you pay for.
> 
> Even a lot of ranch hunts are only 3 days, including the day you arrive and the day you leave.
> 
> There is one up in South Dakota that for $4200 you get to shoot one and they butcher and quick freeze it for you. But that is for a 3-4 year old meat bull.


Eh, I'm not looking for people to do my work for me.. I'll just start putting in for archery cow, should draw sooner


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Dang point jumpers.......

After the draws last year there was only 5 or 6 guys left ahead of me in points for the hunt I want. 
Now looking at this year's odds, I see 3 people with 20 points put in, one each with 19, 18, and 17. 
That has killed my chances the last 2 or 3 years. :shock:
Oh well.......I guess that's life. 

I guess I could put in for archery before I get too old, I have enough points to get that elk hunt in a couple of different good units, maybe even for the Beaver unit. But, would really like to get the muzzle tag. 

I drew the archery LE tag in '00 and killed a good bull. I've taken a couple of decent bulls with a rifle as well. Would like a chance to get a good one with the muzzle gun. I have taken a small bull with muzzle loader. 

I guess that would make ME a point jumper. 8)


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Yeah I thought I was close this year to a muzzle load elk LE permit. Then I saw the bonus point permits went up by 2 points. 

Clearly pool jumpers which is fine... But most of those have not stepped foot on the unit and I've been watching for the brand new member seeking advice post. ... What kills me most, is that nobody with my points drew in the "lottery" but those with 3 points was like a 1 in 3.5 odds or something! Man that irritates me! I am the one guy who never draws without max points.

Uggg!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

BigT said:


> I am the one guy who never draws without max points.
> 
> Uggg!


I'm in that club also. I drew my LE elk tag with max points, I started when they started the point system and it still took me 9 years to draw. Considering that I was in the top point holder draw every year.

Then my LE deer tag, once I got to the top I didn't draw the first year that I was there but had to wait another year to draw.

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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Maybe when everyone dies they should have their family put in the obituary he died with XX points for XXXX unit. Too bad he was so set in his ways! LOL

Point jumping is a real thing. But no one is going to know when all those points will be useless.

I'm building deer points but I doubt I'll ever cash in on them. Mostly to irritate those that worry about it.


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

I’m a points jumper. Been putting in for the Willy Wonka Golden ticket just to build points up. So when I’ve actually accumulated enough to get something, I’m sorry to those who didn’t see me coming.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Everyone feels terrible for critter for drawing both LE elk and deer permits! You’ve got it rough my friend!!! :grin:


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

I jump ship every year, depending on what I already have in the works and then I factor my family in to it. Last year I applied for archery LE elk since I wanted to muzzy deer hunt my first year of dedicated. Filled the muzzy tag, so deer isn’t so much as a priority to me this year, applied for LE muzzy elk and drew it. I rarely apply for the same LE OIL or antlerless seasons/units every year. I apply for what works with my schedule and what I figure I can draw that particular year.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> Everyone feels terrible for critter for drawing both LE elk and deer permits! You've got it rough my friend!!! :grin:


Remember that I started into the elk pool when they first started dishing out points and had to wait until I had drawn the elk tag before I could start putting in for the deer tag and then had to wait another 15 or so years before I drew that tag.

Now for you, there are plenty of units that you could draw a elk tag with your 25 or so points isn't there?


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

MooseMeat said:


> I jump ship every year, depending on what I already have in the works and then I factor my family in to it. I apply for what works with my schedule and what I figure I can draw that particular year.


This^^^


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Vanilla's looking for a "moonshot" with 25 points if he isn't drawing an LE elk tag now. Do you put in for other states too, or are you all in for UT?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I wish I had 25 elk points in the draw! I only had 22, which seems close to 25, but not when you consider how long it’s going to take to clear out all those people ahead of me. 

I have started to play the Wyoming antelope game a little bit. Not sure how often I’ll try to do that with the increased tag cost a couple years ago. I will do the doe/dawn tags though. No other out of state apps for me other than that. At least not yet.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> I wish I had 25 elk points in the draw! I only had 22, which seems close to 25, but not when you consider how long it's going to take to clear out all those people ahead of me.
> 
> I have started to play the Wyoming antelope game a little bit. Not sure how often I'll try to do that with the increased tag cost a couple years ago. I will do the doe/dawn tags though. No other out of state apps for me other than that. At least not yet.


You're putting in then for the primo any weapon early season hunts?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MWScott72 said:


> You're putting in then for the primo any weapon early season hunts?


Yep. About 5-6 years ago I came to the conclusion that this is going to be a once in a lifetime tag for me, so I'm going to treat it as such. My not drawing is definitely because of an active choice I am making on my application strategy.

I've contemplated a multi-season tag that I could draw right now, but I'm not in a place in my life currently where I could dedicate that kind of time to make it worth it. In a couple years that might be the direction I go, however.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I believe that most LE rifle elk hunts are going to be once in a lifetime hunts for most residents and almost all non residents, that is unless you are real lucky. 

I know of 1 hunter who has drawn 3 LE rifle Book Cliff hunts in the last 25 or so years, and that includes his waiting periods He's one of those lucky SOB's that falls into a pile of crap and comes out with roses.

As for Vanilla, go for it. It is great to have a object in sight somewhere down the road that you want to wait for.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Vanilla in 2025 - you have my vote sir!

I also am one of those darn pool jumpers. I like looking at the draw odds, plotting a trend-line, and being completely wrong with my prediction the following year! 

I have yet to draw a tag when I was the high point holder - my antlered draw tags (one CWMU deer tag and one LE elk tag) have been from the random pool. I am starting to think my luck has ran out and my mountain goat tag will elude me until I am the high point holder.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

<full random draw>


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

I was going through the dedicated draw odds and noticed this... I am surprised they didn't allot any tags for the unit. I know they cut quite a few on the unit which I think was a good call. But this just log jammed this particular unit assuming everyone who puts in for it continues to do so..


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Vanilla in 2025 - you have my vote sir!


I'm guessing that my day will come before 2025. I have a hunt I have my eye on right now I could draw, but like I said above, I just need more time than I have this year to make it worth it. 2023, watch out! Maybe...


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

BigT said:


> I was going through the dedicated draw odds and noticed this... I am surprised they didn't allot any tags for the unit. I know they cut quite a few on the unit which I think was a good call. But this just log jammed this particular unit assuming everyone who puts in for it continues to do so..


Looks like they owe 429 people back their application fee for scamming people into applying for something that doesn't exist. Call it false advertising or whatever you want, they wasted a years worth of applicants time on that. It happened on a few units. How many more "next year"s do those people have? Odds are, some of them don't have another year


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

BigT said:


> I was going through the dedicated draw odds and noticed this... I am surprised they didn't allot any tags for the unit. I know they cut quite a few on the unit which I think was a good call. But this just log jammed this particular unit assuming everyone who puts in for it continues to do so..


Someone reached out to the Division over this, and here is the response.

"Yes, you are correct. There are a few units for Dedicated Hunter without anyone drawing out. Let me explain.....

We are only allowed to allocate 15% of the quota to dedicated hunters. Now, that's not 15% of the current quota but it's 15% for the past two years and current year quota. So when the wildlife board passed a reduction in general season buck deer quota by almost 10,000 permits, this is one of the fallouts from that.

The four units that didn't have any allocated dedicated hunter permits are because we were already meeting that 15% allocation by dedicated hunters that are already in the program. So by rule, we couldn't offer any permits this year.

Thanks,
Lindy Varney
Wildlife Licensing Coordinator"


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

MooseMeat said:


> Looks like they owe 429 people back their application fee for scamming people into applying for something that doesn't exist. Call it false advertising or whatever you want, they wasted a years worth of applicants time on that. It happened on a few units. How many more "next year"s do those people have? Odds are, some of them don't have another year


Agreed. I'm not sure why the state can't leave the application period open until after the tag numbers are set... Heck, leave it open for one week only after the tags are set. Those that want can wait to apply or modify their applications. Those that don't care, can put their application in on day 1 and forget about it.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Guys, this is not the first time this has happened. I don't know how many more times it will happen before enough people revolt and demand that they set tag numbers before the application period closes.

I've done what I can on this one. I've sent notes to the RAC and WB multiple times asking for this. I will continue to do so. I've laid out on this forum multiple times how they could easily do it and delay the notifications by only a few days, even though I think it could be done in the exact same timeline. 

But I'm only one voice. I hope everyone that has the same heartburn over this that I do is reaching out to the decision makers and asking for this change as well. Posting it only here on this forum doesn't accomplish a whole lot.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RemingtonCountry said:


> Someone reached out to the Division over this, and here is the response.
> 
> "Yes, you are correct. There are a few units for Dedicated Hunter without anyone drawing out. Let me explain.....
> 
> ...


Looks like it's not those evil lifetime license holders eating up all the DH permits after all?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

RemingtonCountry said:


> Someone reached out to the Division over this, and here is the response.
> 
> "Yes, you are correct. There are a few units for Dedicated Hunter without anyone drawing out. Let me explain.....
> 
> ...


They don't even care lol.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Guys, this is not the first time this has happened. I don't know how many more times it will happen before enough people revolt and demand that they set tag numbers before the application period closes.
> 
> I've done what I can on this one. I've sent notes to the RAC and WB multiple times asking for this. I will continue to do so. I've laid out on this forum multiple times how they could easily do it and delay the notifications by only a few days, even though I think it could be done in the exact same timeline.
> 
> But I'm only one voice. I hope everyone that has the same heartburn over this that I do is reaching out to the decision makers and asking for this change as well. Posting it only here on this forum doesn't accomplish a whole lot.


Thanks! I will do this today! I am not terribly upset because I would have purchased a point anyways instead. But I am not certain others would have done the same thing.

I think that if they can turn the expo draw around in a week, there is no reason that we can't wait until tag numbers are set to hold the draw application and draw and still have it out close to the same time.

I will be emailing the RAC and board today.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

How much you want to bet that their solution is to put a disclaimer on the next application with a check box...


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

So there were 4 different DH units where guys applied but no tags were offered... 1195 applicants for those 4 units.

The odds summary shows that there were 4947 total applicants for the DH program... that means 24.2% of the DH applicants applied for a hunt where no tags were even offered! A quarter of the DH applicants applied for nothing... that's insane.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

derekp1999 said:


> So there were 4 different DH units where guys applied but no tags were offered... 1195 applicants for those 4 units.
> 
> The odds summary shows that there were 4947 total applicants for the DH program... that means 24.2% of the DH applicants applied for a hunt where no tags were even offered! A quarter of the DH applicants applied for nothing... that's insane.


That's $11,950 in application fees.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

RemingtonCountry said:


> That's $11,950 in application fees.


That's a cool, easy paycheck for the DWR and Systems Consultants without having to give anything up.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Now think about how much they get from non residents who put in for all tags that are available at $10 a application, with very little chance of drawing 

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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Critter said:


> Now think about how much they get from non residents who put in for all tags that are available at $10 a application, with very little chance of drawing.


There's a difference between "very little" and ZERO....

There should never, ever be a scenario where an option is listed in the application period that ends up offering zero tags... should never happen... ever... tag numbers should be determined before the application period closes... period.
We live in a time where these kinds of computational operations can be completed in fractions of a second. We can and should do better than this...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

derekp1999 said:


> There's a difference between "very little" and ZERO....


Well, it is close enough to zero to actually almost be called zero.

But how many of those who put in for the DH tags actually drew a different unit for the deer hunts in the general seasons?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

derekp1999 said:


> So there were 4 different DH units where guys applied but no tags were offered... 1195 applicants for those 4 units.
> 
> The odds summary shows that there were 4947 total applicants for the DH program... that means 24.2% of the DH applicants applied for a hunt where no tags were even offered! A quarter of the DH applicants applied for nothing... that's insane.


This just makes me angry. And it doesn't even impact me!!!


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> This just makes me angry. And it doesn't even impact me!!!


Same. I drew my Dedicated Tag for a different unit this year and I'm still bothered.

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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Critter said:


> But how many of those who put in for the DH tags actually drew a different unit for the deer hunts in the general seasons?


But does it matter if they drew a general tag? I think not... clearly the expectation for the applicant was that there would be a chance to draw the DH tag otherwise they wouldn't have applied for it.

Would it make me feel better if I bought an any bull tag after I applied for a LE elk tag and later find out that zero tags were even offered for it? HEEELLLLL NO!!!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

And I expected to draw a Henry Mountain bison tag this year, but guess what? They cut tags big time so I had even less of a chance if any at all. 

While it might not be right people go into the draw with high hopes of drawing a tag and quite often it doesn't happen. Some hunts get cut to the bone and no extra tags are offered. Other years they increase tags and everyone is happy. 

So should of the DOW kept tags as they were last year for this unit and then when they decided that they needed to make cuts take the tags away from those who drew? 

That has happened before


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## buck (May 27, 2020)

BigT said:


> I was going through the dedicated draw odds and noticed this... I am surprised they didn't allot any tags for the unit. I know they cut quite a few on the unit which I think was a good call. But this just log jammed this particular unit assuming everyone who puts in for it continues to do so..


Does anyone know why they don't tell us the tag numbers before we apply? (Or maybe they do and I just don't know what I'm talking about). I would be quite pissed to put in for a unit, only to find out they did not even have any tags to be drawn...

Edit: I read some more posts and now I'm even more mad. Iv never applied out of state, is Utah unique in that we don't know tag numbers before we have to apply? Seems to be a major flaw that should be fixed.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> So should of the DOW kept tags as they were last year for this unit and then when they decided that they needed to make cuts take the tags away from those who drew?


Nope, but they should post permit numbers before the application period closes. It really is such a simple change. This isn't a hard thing to understand or do for the state.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Vanilla said:


> Nope, but they should post permit numbers before the application period closes. It really is such a simple change. This isn't a hard thing to understand or do for the state.


Agreed, good sir.

I think the problem is, they know if people know ahead of time what they'll actually draw for, they'll only apply for those hunts/units. By posting afterwards, they get to ensure they're generating as many application fees as possible. From a business standpoint, it's brilliant. From a customer standpoint, it's infuriating.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Ray said:


> Agreed, good sir.
> 
> I think the problem is, they know if people know ahead of time what they'll actually draw for, they'll only apply for those hunts/units. By posting afterwards, they get to ensure they're generating as many application fees as possible. From a business standpoint, it's brilliant. From a customer standpoint, it's infuriating.


Utah is so full of tag hungry retards that will apply for ANY tag just cuz they can draw it. The antlerless drawing is proof of that. There won't be a decline in applicants. You'd probably see an increase actually


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Critter said:


> And I expected to draw a Henry Mountain bison tag this year, but guess what? They cut tags big time so I had even less of a chance if any at all.
> 
> While it might not be right people go into the draw with high hopes of drawing a tag and quite often it doesn't happen. Some hunts get cut to the bone and no extra tags are offered. Other years they increase tags and everyone is happy.
> 
> ...


I'm in the bison pool as well, and the tags cuts impacted me, too... but the difference there is I don't see a single example in the bison pool where there were applicants for a hunt and then the tags were ultimately cut back to zero... resident or non-resident. Don't you feel even just a tiny bit better about your odds of drawing one tag than your odds of drawing zero tags? It makes a difference to me. Queue our favorite line from Dumb & Dumber here... but you and I both still had that "one in a million" chance even if tags were cut back to 1. Not so much with 0. Full disclosure, I did not apply for any of those DH hunts... I don't have a dog in this fight or a horse in this race in terms of those tags... I got the tags that I wanted and would consider myself satisfied with how the drawing worked out for me this year.

I'm of the opinion that if a hunt is an option on the application that the DWR is saying that there will be a minimum of 1 tag offered... I'm not saying there needs to be tags for all. They could have offered a single tag for each of those 4 DH hunts and there would be no gripe from me. But if it's an option on the application am I not led to believe that there will be at least 1 tag?

It really is an easy fix... publish the tag numbers before the application period closes. If the DWR does not want to do that, then I guess a second option would be to have an open period for applicants to go in and modify their application. For crying out loud, they have all the applicants information, just send a form email that states that there will not be any tags offered for the hunt code the applicant selected and the applicant will be given something like a 72 hour window to modify their application (at no charge) or they can choose to leave their application as is and receive a bonus/preference point.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It has been mentioned before, perhaps not in this thread but in others. The tag numbers are not set until they get their "range rides" and counts done in late spring. 

Yes, they could move the draw to do like Wyoming does where the application period end a couple of weeks before the draw but there are problems with that also. 

Then there is the money thing. The first states that have a early application period may get more applicants than other states with later application periods. I am always reading about this hunter waiting until the draw is complete in this or that state before they put their application in for this other state that has a late application period. 

Perhaps if all the states got together and had their application periods at the same time either early or late it would screw up even more hunters trying to figure out where they are going to hunt that year.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Critter said:


> Then there is the money thing. The first states that have a early application period may get more applicants than other states with later application periods. I am always reading about this hunter waiting until the draw is complete in this or that state before they put their application in for this other state that has a late application period.


I agree completely with this... I think Utah wants to be at the front of the line when hunters have money still in their pockets.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Wow, that's annoying to see. I was the highest point holder for the CWMU tag I applied for, but someone with far fewer points than me drew...:shock:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The change I’m advocating for is not going to change application fees in any noticeable way. So the Oquirrh-Stansbury Dedicated Hunter pool won’t be allocating permits in 2020, do you think those 400-ish applicants are just simply not going to apply for anything this year? 

I’m one that is waiting to submit my Utah antlerless application until I find out if I draw a Wyoming doe/fawn permit. That doesn’t mean Utah will miss out. If I draw Wyoming, I’ll buy a point in Utah, and guess what? They get the exact same money! I just don’t need two pronghorn tags in two different states this year when I can spread things out a little bit, especially when I have a deer tag, spike elk tag, probably a cow elk tag. 

There really is no reasonable justification for doing things the way Utah does. Maybe 20 years ago it made sense due to time lags in processes due to the technology at the time. Those days are LONG gone! Time to act like it’s 2013 now and get with the times. (See what I did there?)


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> But how many of those who put in for the DH tags actually drew a different unit for the deer hunts in the general seasons?


Not me. :-|

Looks like it's going to take me a few years before I ever draw a DH tag again on Boulder.

I feel lucky to draw any tag at all any more...


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

The RAC and WB really need to address this permit numbers availability and draw application deadline issue. How do we get this going at the RAC/ WB??


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

MooseMeat said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed, good sir.
> ...


You're right about the tag hungry retards, I know several of them myself. Hell, I used to be one of them! &#128514;


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Ray said:


> You're right about the tag hungry retards, I know several of them myself. Hell, I used to be one of them! &#128514;


Isn't the point of applying for a given unit to draw said tag? I mean, that's my philosophy anyway. If I don't want the tag, I'll put in for a point. Not sure where the "tag hungry retard" thinking comes in...


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> Wow, that's annoying to see. I was the highest point holder for the CWMU tag I applied for, but someone with far fewer points than me drew...:shock:


If you were indeed the highest point holder, you should have drawn...unless there was only 1 tag allocated which then makes that tag go into the random draw.


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## Wasatch (Nov 22, 2009)

PBH said:


> Not me. :-|
> 
> Looks like it's going to take me a few years before I ever draw a DH tag again on Boulder.
> 
> I feel lucky to draw any tag at all any more...


I feel your pain PBH...It took me 4 years and 3 points to finally draw the DH tag on Boulder last year...


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

'Tag hungry retard' is the most retarded statement I have ever heard! If you want to hunt big game in Utah you need a tag so you have to be a 'tag hungry retard'! Even you MooseMeat are a tag hungry retard! Probably the most retarded! :grin: Unless you don't hunt then what the heck are you even doing here!?

We all want tags--it would be nice to know up front if they offer them--I bought points for cow moose for years with no tags offered, glad I did because I drew when they were offered again, but I knew that going in, unlike the DH folks who got the shaft!


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Where is Johnnycake when you need him, all of this would be solved with a full random draw.. ;-)


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

RemingtonCountry said:


> Where is Johnnycake when you need him, all of this would be solved with a full random draw.. ;-)


He graced us with his presence at post #34!

And that was it . . . he is probably too busy catching something or shooting something in paradise!!

Am I jealous???? ABSOLUTELY!


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Valid points MW and Airborne. Although, I do put in for tags that I’m certain I won’t draw on occasion. For example, if I know I have limited time one year, I may put in for Deseret elk, knowing I won’t draw and that I’ll most likely get a point; but if I did, I’d be still be pumped and drop the other hunts.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

CPAjeff said:


> He graced us with his presence at post #34!
> 
> And that was it . . . he is probably too busy catching something or shooting something in paradise!!
> 
> Am I jealous???? ABSOLUTELY!


Either that or his bosses caught him on the net and took away his access to it so that he would get some work done.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Ray said:


> Valid points MW and Airborne. Although, I do put in for tags that I'm certain I won't draw on occasion. For example, if I know I have limited time one year, I may put in for Deseret elk, knowing I won't draw and that I'll most likely get a point; but if I did, I'd be still be pumped and drop the other hunts.


The problem with Utah is that as soon as you put in for a hard to draw unit with knowledge that the odds are not in your favor you just may draw that tag. You just never know when those 2 points that you have are going to draw a great unit.

The only way to be sure that you don't draw it if you are limited in time is to just put in for a point and not worry about it. I actually had to withdraw a application one year because of time concerns when I saw that I would draw a tag at the same time in a different state.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Critter said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > Valid points MW and Airborne. Although, I do put in for tags that I'm certain I won't draw on occasion. For example, if I know I have limited time one year, I may put in for Deseret elk, knowing I won't draw and that I'll most likely get a point; but if I did, I'd be still be pumped and drop the other hunts.
> ...


Haha that's the way it usually goes isn't it? Although, for certain tags, I'll drop everything!


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

It looks like I'm a tag hungry retard as well! Do I get cred points for admitting that?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Apparently I need to define tag hungry retards....

Those are the idiots who look at the draw odds and compare that with their points standing and then apply for that unit, entirely based upon that. Then when they draw the tag, it’s for a garbage unit they’ve been to, during a garbage time of year, usually full of private land, then they get all pissed cuz they have a tag they can’t use.

Of course no one can have enough good tags. I get every tag I possibly can, granted I know I have a decent chance at an opportunity to use that tag at some point during the season


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

MooseMeat said:


> Apparently I need to define tag hungry retards....
> 
> Those are the idiots who look at the draw odds and compare that with their points standing and then apply for that unit, entirely based upon that. Then when they draw the tag, it's for a garbage unit they've been to, during a garbage time of year, usually full of private land, then they get all pissed cuz they have a tag they can't use.
> 
> Of course no one can have enough good tags. I get every tag I possibly can, granted I know I have a decent chance at an opportunity to use that tag at some point during the season


Well stated then MooseMeat. Yes, those "tag hungry retards" would do well to do a little more research. I know it can be frustrating to learn the ins and outs of a system, but to those that understand it go the rewards.

To Critter's comment earlier, I love the Utah system in that it allows even the guy with 0 points a chance at a tag...allbeit a small chance, but a chance nonetheless. No system is perfect, but as far as draws with points go, I like Utah's. Now, the odds...not so fond of those!!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The draws with bonus points are better for those who draw with very few points than for us that are wheeling a wheelbarrow full of them around looking for a tag.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Critter said:


> The draws with bonus points are better for those who draw with very few points than for us that are wheeling a wheelbarrow full of them around looking for a tag.


I get the sentiment Critter, but I think the hybrid-type draws (for States that have point systems) are better overall for the sport. With a true preference point system, like Colorado's, new people have no shot at getting some of the better tags. For someone just getting into hunting, that could be pretty dang discouraging simply because they weren't around 20-30 years ago when the game started.

Besides...just start putting in for hunts that are not in the top tier, and I'm sure that you could still have an awesome hunt. Too many people (generalized here, not talking specifically about you) sit and wait 25 years for "that one tag" when there are so many other good opportunities out there. While I'd love to hunt the San Juan, Pahvant, Boulder, or Beaver with a rifle in the rut, I'd rather hunt 2 or 3 good units in that same time frame by applying for good but lesser units (or weapon types)!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

One thing that I would like Utah to start doing is to make a applicant wait 3 or 4 years after they start putting in before they are eligible for the tag for OIL and LE hunts.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I think people shorter than 5'10" should have to wait 3 or 4 years after they start putting in before they are eligible for the tag for OIL and LE hunts


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## 4x4 Bronco (Sep 7, 2007)

I for one like Utah’s draw system. I wouldn’t mind less tags to max point holders and more into random, but completely going random at this point would not work our well. The lucky guys still have a chance to draw (and do every year with minimal points) while the unlucky guys will get a chance down the road. I would like to see them take good use of our 2nd, 3rd, 4th choices. Each unit would not have to be drawn separately. One could swing for the fences with their first choice and increase their draw odds with subsequent choices of lesser quality hunts. Every hunter would be assigned a number in the species they apply for. If your first choice has tags available when your number comes up you get that tag. If not, they look at your next choice. Continuing down until either you have a permit or an unsuccessful application before moving on to the next. As of right now our secondary choices for many of the draws are worthless.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Slayer said:


> The RAC and WB really need to address this permit numbers availability and draw application deadline issue. How do we get this going at the RAC/ WB??


You could always send emails to the RAC, WB, and DWR with your concerns... that's probably the easiest way.

If I were to compose an email I would play heavily to the $FW ethos and lean on the fact that those most greatly impacted were residents applying for DH tags... maybe take an angle reminding them the kind of outdoorsmen and sportsmen that typically apply for that kind of opportunity... because you know DH folks aren't just your average run of the mill general deer hunters... they're dedicated.

Regardless, though, a simple email will get the ball rolling however it will not be enough. Pressure would need to me maintained for an extended amount of time and it will take additional emails, phone calls, showing up personally to RAC meetings (if that's possible anymore due to COVID), then showing up personally or participating remotely at the WB meetings. You might also want to consider reaching out to some of the more influential conservation organizations here in the state and having some communication with them.

I've got my "Proud Utah THR" trucker hat and sleeveless T-shirt already on order... I plan to wear it first with some shorty shorts and socks with sandals.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You also need to go to the RAC meetings and let your voice be heard. 

I attended one a couple of years ago and there were exactly 2 others at the meeting besides those that were required to be there. 

And I was one of the two and came from out of state.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Another thread full of people who would have done better with a Full Random draw. 

The solution hasn't changed


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Airborne said:


> I think people shorter than 5'10" should have to wait 3 or 4 years after they start putting in before they are eligible for the tag for OIL and LE hunts


Why not just bump it up to 6'4"?


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Kwalk3 said:


> Why not just bump it up to 6'4"?


Hey now..... I would be fine with 6'1" and under..


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Kwalk3 said:


> Why not just bump it up to 6'4"?
> 
> 
> RemingtonCountry said:
> ...


I'd be fine with either one of those, we could even throw a weight requirement into it also.

Lets say over 220 lbs get a extra point every year..:mrgreen:


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Critter said:


> I'd be fine with either one of those, we could even throw a weight requirement into it also.
> 
> Lets say over 220 lbs get a extra point every year..:mrgreen:


Yes!!!

And if your over 6'5" an additional point on top of the other additional point.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I don't like the direction this thread is going. :roll:

#Averageheightsportsmenmatter


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Catherder said:


> I don't like the direction this thread is going. :roll:
> 
> #Averageheightsportsmenmatter


Haha it's pretty hard for us above average height guys to sneak up on ANYTHING!

We need all the help we can get!


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

According to the source of all truth and knowledge, the internet, the average height of an American male is 5'9" - FINALLY, something I am above average at!!!!

#dontdiscriminatebecauseiamtaller


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

As a bit of a homunculus myself, our shorter legs make it harder for us to climb mountains, scramble over logs/deadfall, etc. Logically it would follow that if our ability to access the thick stuff is disadvantaged then we might likewise be disadvantaged at filling our tags. So we should really be allocating a guaranteed 10% of tags available to the sub 5'8" crowd. 

#CheckYourPrivilegeGiants
#WeeFolkUnite
#HobbitLivesMatter
#dontmakemebiteyourkneecaps


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> As a bit of a homunculus myself, our shorter legs make it harder for us to climb mountains, scramble over logs/deadfall, etc. Logically it would follow that if our ability to access the thick stuff is disadvantaged then we might likewise be disadvantaged at filling our tags. So we should really be allocating a guaranteed 10% of tags available to the sub 5'8" crowd.


Smaller:






-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)




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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

^now that is some straight up hate speech right there. 

Just for that, we now deserve 12% of all tags.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

johnnycake said:


> As a bit of a homunculus myself, our shorter legs make it harder for us to climb mountains, scramble over logs/deadfall, etc. Logically it would follow that if our ability to access the thick stuff is disadvantaged then we might likewise be disadvantaged at filling our tags. So we should really be allocating a guaranteed 10% of tags available to the sub 5'8" crowd.
> 
> #CheckYourPrivilegeGiants
> #WeeFolkUnite
> ...


#WEEFOLKUNITE
:rotfl:


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

TPrawitt91 said:


> #WEEFOLKUNITE


Does this refer to more diminutive applicants or does it refer to more "seasoned" hunters that require Flomax to deal with the frequency of their bathroom breaks?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Catherder said:


> Does this refer to more diminutive applicants or does it refer to more "seasoned" hunters that require Flomax to deal with the frequency of their bathroom breaks?


That you even have to ask that reveals your unchecked privilege.

#LusciouslyLittle
#PocketPeople
#KitchenStepLadderTribe


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm 6' and below average in my family......
Can I join the club ??


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

johnnycake said:


> That you even have to ask that reveals your unchecked privilege.
> 
> #LusciouslyLittle
> #PocketPeople
> #KitchenStepLadderTribe


I think it is perfectly valid to ask this question. Every angler or hunter knows the bite always occurs or the game shows up when one is taking a leak. Talk about a disadvantaged group, deserving of remediation. I suppose vertically challenged folk can also be afflicted.

#dribblersunited4points
#prostatesmatter


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

2full said:


> I'm 6' and below average in my family......
> Can I join the club ??


Back off, Lurch.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think anyone under 5’11” should be banned from applying. 

Extra points if you’re over 25 on the BMI scale. Guaranteed draw for tall, overweight bald men. 

Make it so!!!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> I think anyone under 5'11" should be banned from applying.
> 
> Extra points if you're over 25 on the BMI scale. Guaranteed draw for tall, overweight bald men.
> 
> Make it so!!!


Now you are talking


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I think anyone that’s 5’10” and 200 pounds with less than 13% body fat Should get preferential treatment. Not just in the drawings, in every aspect in life. 😂


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Airborne said:


> I think people shorter than 5'10" should have to wait 3 or 4 years after they start putting in before they are eligible for the tag for OIL and LE hunts


Why not just implement a slot system? Those between 5'8"-5'11.75" get their applications automatically "released". That would sure make my odds better (full disclosure - I am just a shade over that upper limit)!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Email received with apology and offer to refund $10 application fee.


I thought about this, and the application, and the permits already capped. What would I have done different?

Probably nothing.

Had I known ahead of time that the Boulder unit was already at max permits, would I have put in for a different unit -- willing to hunt a different unit for 3 years? No. I would have just purchased a bonus point.

So, what difference did it make for me not knowing ahead of time that the unit I applied for was already at max pool? None.

But I did get a nice apology email, thanks to all of you who called to complain.

:smile:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

An apology is a good start. Changing the application period to close after permit numbers are set is a good second step. 

Giving me a bison tag seems like the perfect cherry on top to the equation.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> Giving me a bison tag seems like the perfect cherry on top to the equation.


I wouldn't go that far, that is unless it also includes me.

I don't want to be like a lot of hunters down on the Henry Mountains chasing bison in my 80's.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Hahahahahaha did they really send out emails saying sorry and they would give the money back?? I bet they got some pretty nasty lawsuit threats over that deal for them to send out an email admitting their mistake. Enjoy this moment, because I doubt they will ever admit wrongdoing ever again :smile:


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> I wouldn't go that far, that is unless it also includes me.
> 
> I don't want to be like a lot of hunters down on the Henry Mountains chasing bison in my 80's.


I felt very bad when I was hunting the late cow hunt in 2018, seeing all these trucks driving around every day with a lot of them in their mid 70s, looking for a road bison. There's no way some of those guys could have gotten remotely close to where they were all at during those hunts.

It's happening with elk too. Seem like more and more of the tag holders every year are older people that can't get into where the elk are during the hunt


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Hey........I resemble that remark Moose Meat. ;-)
I have been pretty lucky and have had my share of tags in my life and had some good hunts. 
So, I won't complain. I'm in my mid 60'S and I can feel myself slowing down, so to speak. 
I just appreciate that I can still be out there, probably more now than ever. Especially with the health challenges that have come up lately. Never thought that would be me. 

Will do it as long as I can. :mrgreen:


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

MooseMeat said:


> Hahahahahaha did they really send out emails saying sorry and they would give the money back?? I bet they got some pretty nasty lawsuit threats over that deal for them to send out an email admitting their mistake. Enjoy this moment, because I doubt they will ever admit wrongdoing ever again :smile:


Yep...

I got one yesterday! I emailed the Wildlife Board the other day. I am sure I am not alone. They need to move the application period to after the permit numbers are allocated, and then specifically inform the public exactly what is available for every unit for each hunt including dedicated.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

PBH said:


> Email received with apology and offer to refund $10 application fee.
> 
> I thought about this, and the application, and the permits already capped. What would I have done different?
> 
> ...


This was what I was thinking when the news came out. I don't know of a DH who would switch areas just because they won't draw every time they apply.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

middlefork said:


> This was what I was thinking when the news came out. I don't know of a DH who would switch areas just because they won't draw every time they apply.


If my choice A unit didn't have any tags available for that years draw and I knew prior to the draw, I would definitely apply for another area. I like opportunity. I can't go hunting if there is no opportunity


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Good for you. Many others carrying preference points to draw the unit they want won't apply for a different area.

And if there were more applicants than tags and you did not draw, what would your complaint be then?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

middlefork said:


> And if there were more applicants than tags and you did not draw, what would your complaint be then?


This statement misses the mark big time. It's not about complaining about not drawing. It's about over 1,000 Utah hunters applying for permits that were non-existent. That's wrong. So maybe even 75% of them wouldn't have changed units, that doesn't change anything. At least they have the choice.

Collecting application fees and advertising a hunt that doesn't exist is plain wrong. Even the cow moose points people were able to buy, they were at least with full disclosure and people knew what they were doing. You know what solves this issue easily and completely? Close the application period after the permit numbers are set. It ain't rocket science.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

middlefork said:


> Good for you. Many others carrying preference points to draw the unit they want won't apply for a different area.
> 
> And if there were more applicants than tags and you did not draw, what would your complaint be then?


Really? You speak for everyone else now? According to the DWR surveys they send out, people want to go hunting. I'd bet most have several units they'd happily take tags in, over only picking one unit or nothing.

There would be no complaint. Just like with LE or OIL when I don't draw those every year. I'll try again next time. But at least I didn't waste a year of applying for a unit that had ZERO tags offered.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MooseMeat said:


> Really? You speak for everyone else now? According to the DWR surveys they send out, people want to go hunting. I'd bet most have several units they'd happily take tags in, over only picking one unit or nothing.
> 
> There would be no complaint. Just like with LE or OIL when I don't draw those every year. I'll try again next time. But at least I didn't waste a year of applying for a unit that had ZERO tags offered.


 I don't claim to speak for everyone. Only those I have talked to, some of which were affected by the results.

I've never advocated for tag cuts or loss of opportunity. I too want to go hunt. Maybe you should attack those that advocated for the cuts.

Should the WB/DWR be held accountable? In hindsight yes. Should there be a change or changes in process? Probably so. But in the end you didn't draw and earned a preference point the same as any other unsuccessful applicant.

Sorry I'm still not feeling sorry for you.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> . It's about over 1,000 Utah hunters applying for permits that were non-existent. That's wrong. So maybe even 75% of them wouldn't have changed units, that doesn't change anything. At least they have the choice.


I'll agree with this. It certainly would be nice to know before hand whether or not any tags were allocated to the hunt being applied for. Even when, as was my case, I wouldn't change anything.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

PBH said:


> I'll agree with this. It certainly would be nice to know before hand whether or not any tags were allocated to the hunt being applied for. Even when, as was my case, I wouldn't change anything.


I agree. I wouldn't have changed my plans and just purchased a preference point. However, it would have been nice knowing going into it that this was the option I had rather than believe I had a 50% chance of drawing only to find out I applied for a non-existent hunt.

Vanilla is right. EVERYONE needs to be writing the Wildlife Board and asking for them to motion that the draw application period be moved until after permit numbers are allocated. And I believe they need to take it a step further, and state exactly how many resident and non resident permits are available for each unit including dedicated hunter so that you know exactly what is available. This isn't a difficult thing to do. They can have the application period in May, and still have the draw results by June 1.. I mean they have the draw results available 7 days after the close of the SFW Expo every February.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> This statement misses the mark big time. It's not about complaining about not drawing. It's about over 1,000 Utah hunters applying for permits that were non-existent. That's wrong. So maybe even 75% of them wouldn't have changed units, that doesn't change anything. At least they have the choice.
> 
> Collecting application fees and advertising a hunt that doesn't exist is plain wrong. Even the cow moose points people were able to buy, they were at least with full disclosure and people knew what they were doing. You know what solves this issue easily and completely? Close the application period after the permit numbers are set. It ain't rocket science.


100% exactly correct!! #MYTAGMYCHOICE


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