# UBA RAC Proposal



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*"Archery Elk season to open on the third Saturday of August with a 5 day extended Limited Entry Bull Elk Archery hunt period, and a 12 day extended Any Bull Archery Elk hunt period"*
(Proclamation Section R657-5-43)

The Utah Bowmen's Association would like to propose the following:

1)That the General Archery Elk Hunt and Limited Entry Elk archery hunts opening day be moved forward and open on the third Saturday of Aigust. This would then open on the same day as the General Archery Buck Deer hunt.

2)That the General Archery "Spike Bull Units" elk hunt (archery elk hunts on spike bull only units) would be a 23 day hunt period (same as current hunt period) which would then close on the 4th Sunday after opening day.

3)That the Limited Entry Archery Bull Elk unit periods be extended by 5 days to become 28 day hunt periods closing on the 4th Friday after the opening day. This would end the same day as the General Archery Buck Deer Hunt.

4)The same rules and restrictions will apply on elk harvest according to Spike Bull Units and Any Bull Units.

This proposal has no significant down side for any management group. The overall success rate for Archery Elk hunters remains relatively low. By moving the opening of the Archery Elk hunt to coincide with the Archery Buck Deer hunt opening, the general bowhunter intending to hunt both species will realize a more enjoyable hunt opportunity. The (12) day extension for Any Bull units and the (5) day extension for Archery Limited Entry bull units would greatly improve the hunt enjoyment and overall satisfaction of these hunters by eliminating the Spike bull and antlerless hunter conflicts during the last 5 days of the Limited Entry Bull Elk archery units and by allowing the Any Bull Elk hunters to hunt closer to the rut. Due to relatively low historical archery success rates, these additional days of hunting opportunity may only slightly increase the mature bull archery success rates, which would be insignificant in total. Neither of these changes would create any new conflicts in existing General season rifle, spike, muzzle loader, or any Limited Entry any weapon or muzzle loader seasons.

PRO


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

Looks good thanks for posting.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> Looks good thanks for posting.


Sorry it was a week late, I forgot all about posting it.  Of course you were supposed to remind me. 8)

Feedback pro/con would be great.

PRO


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Of course you were supposed to remind me.


Opps my bad. I think it would work great. Can not really think of anything that is bad about it.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

It sounds and looks good to me.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I can't think of any negatives in that proposal. I would support it.

When Pro? Are you guys sending rep's to all of the RAC's?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> I can't think of any negatives in that proposal. I would support it.
> 
> *When Pro? Are you guys sending rep's to all of the RAC's?[/*quote]
> 
> ...


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## MarkM (Sep 7, 2007)

I like it!!!!

Mark


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

Bad idea IMO, I'll take a few to cool down before I reply.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

skeet4l said:


> Bad idea IMO, I'll take a few to cool down before I reply.


Out with it, was has got you all hot and bothered? I truly want to know.

PRO


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

I like it, but I would like to see the Archery Elk LE hunt pushed forward a few weeks to put it into the rut a little more. I know that would never happen, but I can wish.  Sounds great though.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

jahan said:


> I like it, but I would like to see the Archery Elk LE hunt pushed forward a few weeks to put it into the rut a little more. I know that would never happen, but I can wish.  Sounds great though.


I hear ya, but we have to take baby steps. There is no way that I can see to get the season dates changed on ALL 28 LE units next month. This is a step in the right direction, one has to climb a mountain one step at a time, I believe this is a good proposal that will benefit those who draw a LE archery tag on the 15 LE units that issue spike tags. I truly can't see ANY negatives, but I am curious how others feel on this.

PRO


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

I agree, I was just getting a little over zealous. 8) Keep up the good work and keep us up to date on how things are going.


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## suave300 (Sep 11, 2007)

PRO, sorry I didnt see this before the PM. Ill see you at one of the RACs. I like this proposal as well. Awesome.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

If you hurry and get it passed, then I can throw my points at my honey hole and hunt LE archery elk next year!

I'll be at the Northern RAC. I'll bring the beer and green jello.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> If you hurry and get it passed, then I can throw my points at my honey hole and hunt LE archery elk next year!
> 
> I'll be at the Northern RAC. I'll bring the beer and green jello.


It *will* get passed this year! Your honey hole is in play now. :shock:

Make it Mountain Dew and a Snickers and you will be my friend again.

Sauve300, no problem!

PRO


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

"Board meeting November 29: Bucks & Bulls Proclamation & Rule; CWMU Approval: Conservation permit allocation; 2008 meeting dates approval; Hunter Education rule review.

RAC meetings: Bucks & Bulls Proclamation & Rule; CWMU Approval: 2008 meeting dates approval; Hunter Education rule review.
6 – SR – 5 P.M. – Hurricane High School – Hurricane, UT
7 – SER
8 – NER
13 – CR
19 – NR (MONDAY)"

Here are the RAC dates for November.

PRO


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

PRO,
So let’s make sure I understand you, if we move the archery elk hunt to the left it’ll close to the left pushing us out of what little rut we enjoy and the archery deer hunt will close a week later. Where (in the four proposals) does it state that the general any bull elk hunt will end at the same time as the deer hunt and being closer to the rut. I value my independence and prefer to archery hunt elk with other elk archers and would vote to separate the hunts rather than combine them. Should we then put the rifle Deer and the rifle Elk hunts together and so on? Maybe we should throw the muzzle in there too. There are already too many people in the field punching their hoochies and giving chase just because they’ve seen something and it’s only going to get worse. I think this would turn into a “bonus tag” so to speak just in case you run across one or the other and put hunters at odds with one another. Deer and elk hunting are two separate disciplines and should be treated as such both requiring different strategies and tactics. If the seasons are combined the overall number of hunters may decrease due to dual permits being held by one hunter but the numbers in the field would show an increase. Why would I as a resident agree to take away from the general archers choice which I can enjoy every year no questions asked (for now) and add to the limited which is driven by the luck of the draw? I don’t mean to ruffle any feathers here but I live in the north and the only reason I have gone along with the elk draws thus far is because they haven’t affected me. I hunt because I enjoy just that “hunting” and if I could do it every day I would. Yes, there are spike only hunts that are intended to give everyone a chance while the lucky chase the monsters but what’s important to me is being able to make my own choices, what, when, where and if I decide to take the shot. Did I miss where the 12 day any bull extension was noted in the four proposals listed? Hopefully I’ve misunderstood something and this is all for not.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

skeet4l said:


> PRO,
> So let's make sure I understand you, if we move the archery elk hunt to the left it'll close to the left pushing us out of what little rut we enjoy and the archery deer hunt will close a week later. Where (in the four proposals) does it state that the general any bull elk hunt will end at the same time as the deer hunt and being closer to the rut. I value my independence and prefer to archery hunt elk with other elk archers and would vote to separate the hunts rather than combine them. Should we then put the rifle Deer and the rifle Elk hunts together and so on? Maybe we should throw the muzzle in there too. There are already too many people in the field punching their hoochies and giving chase just because they've seen something and it's only going to get worse. I think this would turn into a "bonus tag" so to speak just in case you run across one or the other and put hunters at odds with one another. Deer and elk hunting are two separate disciplines and should be treated as such both requiring different strategies and tactics. If the seasons are combined the overall number of hunters may decrease due to dual permits being held by one hunter but the numbers in the field would show an increase. Why would I as a resident agree to take away from the general archers choice which I can enjoy every year no questions asked (for now) and add to the limited which is driven by the luck of the draw? I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here but I live in the north and the only reason I have gone along with the elk draws thus far is because they haven't affected me. I hunt because I enjoy just that "hunting" and if I could do it every day I would. Yes, there are spike only hunts that are intended to give everyone a chance while the lucky chase the monsters but what's important to me is being able to make my own choices, what, when, where and if I decide to take the shot. Did I miss where the 12 day any bull extension was noted in the four proposals listed? Hopefully I've misunderstood something and this is all for not.


You missed the whole freakin proposal! Did you even read it? Look, it will have the deer and elk open the same day, instead of the elk opening *five* days later, the deer and elk are already going at the *same* time. The LE tag holders will get 5 days at the end of the season w/o spike hunters, meaning it will end the *same* time as it does NOW. FYI, the muzzy deer hunt takes place at the *same* time as the LE muzzy elk hunt! This does NOT "take away" from the general season hunter in any way, not sure why you say that. :?:

PRO


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > If you hurry and get it passed, then I can throw my points at my honey hole and hunt LE archery elk next year!
> ...


You got a deal. Maybe some peach city after the meeting.


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

Easy there Gunner....OK, so beat me, I know the hunts are already running the same time but by moving the elk hunt to the left to open the same time where does it say that the hunt will still end at the same time? Are the LE tags you're referring to and the any bull tags one and the same? That's not my understanding, aren't the LE's a draw?


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## bds (Sep 20, 2007)

Skeet is right, unless I missed it too. In the proposals numbers 1-4, there is no mention about a 12 day extension for the any bull archery hunt. Pro, you do mention it in your explanation but not before. 

As far as the overall proposal goes, I think I could support it. I have always liked hunting the last week of the archery elk hunt even when I'm in a spike area because the temperatures are usually cooler and most other hunters have given up by then. If the archery season on any bull units ended 12 days later than it does now, that would be awesome!


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

I do not support the closing of the archery elk hunt (spike or any bull unit) any earlier than it already is? Why on earth would you possibly want to do this? If you want to push for an earlier opener to be consistent with the deer opener, fine, but don't push the season end earlier also.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Right in the original post: The Utah Bowmen's Association would like to propose the following:



> 3)That the Limited Entry Archery Bull Elk unit periods be extended by 5 days to become 28 day hunt periods closing on the 4th Friday after the opening day. This would end the same day as the General Archery Buck Deer Hunt.





> *The (12) day extension for Any Bull units* and the (5) day extension for Archery Limited Entry bull units would greatly improve the hunt enjoyment and overall satisfaction of these hunters by eliminating the Spike bull and antlerless hunter conflicts during the last 5 days of the Limited Entry Bull Elk archery units and by *allowing the Any Bull Elk hunters to hunt closer to the rut*.


Ben, the season closer is only moved up *five* days for spike/antlerless on LE units, while giving an *extra* 12 day season for the any-bull areas, meaning *you* get an extra week to hunt with your bow, while allowing the LE archers *five* days to hunt w/o competing with spike hunters. To oppose that is looking out for a few that get to hunt EVERY year for spikes, while disregarding those who draw a LIMITED entry tag that takes years to obtain, and the many who would gladly 'give' this 'sacrifice' for the better of ALL archers, not just themselves.


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

_"Archery Elk season to open on the third Saturday of August with a 5 day extended Limited Entry Bull Elk Archery hunt period, and a 12 day extended Any Bull Archery Elk hunt period"
(Proclamation Section R657-5-43)_

*Departure (where in the proposals does it support a 12 day ABAE extention?)*

_1)That the General Archery Elk Hunt and Limited Entry Elk archery hunts opening day be moved forward and open on the third Saturday of August. This would then open on the same day as the General Archery Buck Deer hunt._

*Understood (All three would open the same day)*

_2)That the General Archery "Spike Bull Units" elk hunt (archery elk hunts on spike bull only units) would be a 23 day hunt period (same as current hunt period) which would then close on the 4th Sunday after opening day._

*Understood (23 days in the field)*

_3)That the Limited Entry Archery Bull Elk unit periods be extended by 5 days to become 28 day hunt periods closing on the 4th Friday after the opening day. This would end the same day as the General Archery Buck Deer Hunt._

*Departure (Limited ONLY shall extend 5 days, "no mention of the General Any Bull")*

_4)The same rules and restrictions will apply on elk harvest according to Spike Bull Units and Any Bull Units._

*Understood*

_This proposal has no significant down side for any management group. The overall success rate for Archery Elk hunters remains relatively low. By moving the opening of the Archery Elk hunt to coincide with the Archery Buck Deer hunt opening, the general bowhunter intending to hunt both species will realize a more enjoyable hunt opportunity. The (12) day extension for Any Bull units and the (5) day extension for Archery Limited Entry bull units would greatly improve the hunt enjoyment and overall satisfaction of these hunters by eliminating the Spike bull and antlerless hunter conflicts during the last 5 days of the Limited Entry Bull Elk archery units and by allowing the Any Bull Elk hunters to hunt closer to the rut. Due to relatively low historical archery success rates, these additional days of hunting opportunity may only slightly increase the mature bull archery success rates, which would be insignificant in total. Neither of these changes would create any new conflicts in existing General season rifle, spike, muzzle loader, or any Limited Entry any weapon or muzzle loader seasons.

PRO_

*Your Opening statement and conclusion doesn't accurately reflect the proposals you have identified. You've moved the opener of the Gen Any Bull to the left 5 days but failed to make mention of the closure date remaining the same. The 28 days refers to the Limited Entry Bull and doesn't include the Gen Any Bull. Where are the 12 days noted in the opening and closing statements and how will this move us closer to the rut? I would recommend you ammend the proposals to include in writing the 28 day Gen Any Bull as well.*


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

skeet4l , read my post right before yours, I put in quotes the parts of the original post describing the very things you are still questioning, I thought* very* clearly.

Regardless, the proposal *WILL* be made and it will ask for the archery elk hunt*s* to open on the *same* day as the archery buck deer hunt, and end 23 days later, *EXCEPT* for LE archery Bull elk hunters *AND* any-bull area hunters. The LE archery bull elk hunters will have their hunt end on the *fourth friday* after it opens (the same day the buck deer archery hunt ends), the *any-bull areas *will close 12 days *after* the close of the spike/antlerless archery elk hunt ends.

PRO


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

Pro, If you can make all that happen I'll take my hat off to you and all those involved. I was merely questioning whether or not the noted proposals accurately depicted the original recommendations. Thank you for your continued involvement.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Seems to me skeet4l is pointing out a flaw in the wording, not the intention. If it was me, I'd make the revision and probably save similar confusion at the RACs. Sure, it's redundant, but it might keep a few unnecessary comment cards off the table.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> Seems to me skeet4l is pointing out a flaw in the wording, not the intention. If it was me, I'd make the revision and probably save similar confusion at the RACs. Sure, it's redundant, but it might keep a few unnecessary comment cards off the table.


What I posted was just a self-written attempt to show what UBA is presenting, it is/was NOT the 'offical' proposal. Thanks for pointing out my 'flaws'. 8)

PRO


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

Ha PRO, I knew you had flaws. J/K. 

I'm kinda torn whether I like this proposal. I like the moving forward of the opening days and the 12 and 5 day extensions on the LE and General anybull units. But, I like to hunt the spike units as close to the rut as possible. The elk are more active and I get to see more big bulls while I'm looking to fill my General tag. I guess there is more PRO than con to this.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> The elk are more active and I get to see more big bulls while I'm looking to fill my General tag.


This IS exactly why there are conflicts between spike hunters and LE (once in a lifetime) hunters, and IS what motivated this proposal to be drawn up to begin with.

PRO


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> But, I like to hunt the spike units as close to the rut as possible


+1 I would however be ok giving up those days of spike hunting for the good of the LE hunts. I think that overall the plan is great.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> > But, I like to hunt the spike units as close to the rut as possible
> 
> 
> +1 I would however be ok giving up those days of spike hunting for the good of the LE hunts. I think that overall the plan is great.


Coming from the strongest spike hunting advocate I know, that says alot. Thanks brother!

PRO


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

I have never run into any hunter (Other than on the trail or road) while out hunting in a LE unit for a spike. So from my own experiences I don't see that as valid arguement. But, as I said before there are more PRO's than Con's about his proposal.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

truemule, UBA has recieved numerous complaints from LE hunters telling us how they had a good bull coming in, only to have it bumped by a spike hunter chasing the bugle in hope of sneaking in on a cow/spike. When a hunter has waited several years to get this rare chance at a bull of this caliber, emotions tend to run high. The conflicts are getting more common and more confrontational. So, in order to minimize the conflicts between fellow archers, AND to improve the hunt for those lucky enough to draw that LE tag, this is what we have come up with. I have seen these conflicts on more than one occassion myself, they DO happen.

PRO


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

Pro, my apologies, the proposals appeared to be a copy and paste sort of thing.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

skeet4l said:


> Pro, my apologies, the proposals appeared to be a copy and paste sort of thing.


It is all good, and it is just ONE proposal. 8)

PRO


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

Pro, I didn't say they dont' happen. I just said I had never run into anyone while I have been in the field (Just lucky I guess). I can certainly understand emotions running high on LE hunts. When/If I draw my limited entry Elk tag. I will be greatful that this change has been put in place. I just like to be in the area when they are active. Who doesn't like seeing a big bull come in screaming with his breath misting in the cool morning air.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I hear you truemule, nothing cooler in the world than a bull yelling insults at first light. That is why I make sure I am on the mountain every day from late August til the end of September, so I can experience that very thing many, many times each year.

PRO


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Here is what was sent out to all the RAC board members and what will be presented/proposed at the RAC's:

UBA Proposal 

“Archery Elk season to open on the third Saturday of August with a 5 day extended Limited Entry Bull Elk Archery hunt period, and a 12 day extended Any Bull Archery Elk hunt period” 
(Proclamation Section R657-5-43).

The Utah Bowmen’s association would like to propose the following:

(1)-That the General Archery Elk Hunt and Limited Entry Bull Elk archery hunts opening day be moved forward and open on the third Saturday of August. This would then open on the same day as the General Archery Buck Deer Hunt. 

(2)-That the General Archery “Spike Bull Units” Elk Hunt (archery Elk Hunts on Spike Bull only units) would be a 23 day hunt period (same as current hunt period) which would then close on the 4th Sunday after the opening day.

(3)-That the Limited Entry Archery Bull Elk unit hunt periods be extended by 5 days to become 28 day hunt periods closing on the 4th Friday after the opening day. This would end on the same day as the General Archery Buck Deer Hunt.

(4)-That the General Archery “Any” Bull Elk hunt periods be extended by 12 days to be 35 day hunt period closing on the 5th Friday after the opening day. This would extended one week past the end of the General Archery Buck Deer Hunt and coincide with the youth Bull Elk Hunt.

(5)-The same rules and restrictions will apply on elk harvest according to Spike Bull Units and Any Bull Units. 

This proposal has no significant down side for any management group. The overall success rate for Archery Elk hunters remains relatively low. By moving the opening of the Archery Elk Hunt to coincide with the Archery Buck Deer Hunt opening,
The general bowhunter intending to hunt both species will realize a more enjoyable hunt opportunity. The (12) day extension for Any Bull units and the (5) day extension for Archery Limited Entry Bull Units would greatly improve the hunt enjoyment and overall satisfaction of these hunters by eliminating the Spike bull and Cow Elk hunter conflicts during the last 5 days of the Limited Entry Bull Elk archery units and by allowing the Open Any Bull Elk hunters to hunt closer to the rut. Due to the relatively low historical archery success rates, these additional days of hunting opportunity may only slightly increase the mature bull archery hunt success rate, which would be insignificant in total. Neither of these changes would create any new conflicts in existing General season Rifle, Spike, muzzleloader, or any Limited Entry Bull Elk any weapon or muzzleloader seasons.

PRO


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

In reference to running hunts together, late last oct during the rifle in wyoming I had a high 300 class bull coming to my hyper. I let a cow swing around and behind me only to here someone else drop her about a hundred yds back. The bull which I had worked so hard to bring in slipped away. In some states it's next to impossible to seperate the hunts but if there's any way to do this you'd get my vote.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> weatherby25 said:
> 
> 
> > > But, I like to hunt the spike units as close to the rut as possible
> ...


I know what am I thinking. :shock: Having ran into many many LE hunters during the spike hunt I think in this case it would be better to give them a little time with out others. Even if that means looseing a little spike hunting time. It to me is a good thing for the whole archery hunting world. It is something I could and would support 100%


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## bowhunter3 (Oct 18, 2007)

THe only problem I have with it is that it will increase the number of hunters on the opening weekend. Other than that I don't mind the idea. I really don't care either way, I have a job where I can take weeks off at a time so, I am on the mountain for a few weeks any ways, doesn't really matter to me if I have to wait an extra week to hunt elk.


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## Firstarrow (Sep 28, 2007)

I gotta voice against this one.

IMO the last 2 weeks of the hunt are always the best of the season.

How many people hunting spikes or LE every say "Gee, I hate hunting in August it is just too cold!" ? NONE. If you want to change the season make it the 4th saturday of August to open Deer and elk or better yet September 1 reguardless of the day. I'm all for giving the guys who hunt LE an extra 2 to 5 days just extend it the dates to the end of SEPTEMBER!!!

Giving up seasons - especially archery just doesn't sit well with me.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

Pro...if you'd like a side-kick...I'd love to go to the Northern and Central RAC's with you...the more the merrier..


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wapiti67 said:


> Pro...if you'd like a side-kick...I'd love to go to the Northern and Central RAC's with you...the more the merrier..


You're on. For some reason I am unable to post on the thread were you put up pix of your dad and his great lope. Tell him congrats, again. DId his razor get left at home or what.

Firstarrow, you lost me. What days in August do you suggest the LE hunters get w/o the spike hunters competing with them? I read your post several times, I am not getting it, help this slow hick out.

PRO


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## Firstarrow (Sep 28, 2007)

OOPS   SEPTEMBER.

More along the lines of I-400 schedule. :shock:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Firstarrow said:


> OOPS   SEPTEMBER.


So, how do you propose doing this? How are you going to deal with the LE any weapon and muzzy hunters? Just curious.

PRO


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

I told him....he has had a beard since he retired...you just need to come around alittle more..lol..Oh by the way...I'm an old man like you now..


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wapiti67 said:


> I told him....he has had a beard since he retired...you just need to come around alittle more..lol..Oh by the way...I'm an old man like you now..


I remembered your B-day, check out the Everthing Else forum.

PRO


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

:shock: Depends :wink: I think I can wait a few more years to have to "depend" on them.


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## Firstarrow (Sep 28, 2007)

It aint gonna be easy. 
In I-400 you have the dates for LE Archey at Sept 1 to 21 IMO great dates. So Lets begin by working toward those dates. Set the Regular Archery hunt dates August 23 to September 16 each and every year.

The BIGGEST Hurdle ever to changing any date is the legislated date of the Rifle hunt.
It should be changed to read something to the effect of, "It shall begin on (exact date (not day))" or "It shall begin as voted on by the wildlife board each November meeting previous to the season..."


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

> I have never run into any hunter (Other than on the trail or road) while out hunting in a LE unit for a spike. So from my own experiences I don't see that as valid arguement.


+1. I have hunted the last two weeks of the elk season on spike only/LE units several times and have never run into another hunter away from the road after Labor Day weekend.



> UBA has recieved numerous complaints from LE hunters telling us how they had a good bull coming in, only to have it bumped by a spike hunter chasing the bugle in hope of sneaking in on a cow/spike. When a hunter has waited several years to get this rare chance at a bull of this caliber, emotions tend to run high. The conflicts are getting more common and more confrontational. So, in order to minimize the conflicts between fellow archers, AND to improve the hunt for those lucky enough to draw that LE tag, this is what we have come up with. I have seen these conflicts on more than one occassion myself, they DO happen.


I won't argure that these conficts happen, but how often do they happen during the last week of the season? Based on my experience I would say so little that it is insignificant. Rather, they probably happen most often from the opener through Labor Day since that is when most of the hunters are in the field. Besides, what gives an LE elk hunter any more right to hunt a particular herd than a general season spike/cow hunter? Both tag holders have permits issued by the same agency and are hunting on the same public land. This whole idea that LE elk hunters should have first rights to the mountain over anybody else is a bunch of BS. LE hunters should give general season hunters the exact same respect that they expect in return.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Firstarrow said:


> It aint gonna be easy.
> In I-400 you have the dates for LE Archey at Sept 1 to 21 IMO great dates. So Lets begin by working toward those dates. Set the Regular Archery hunt dates August 23 to September 16 each and every year.
> 
> The BIGGEST Hurdle ever to changing any date is the legislated date of the Rifle hunt.
> It should be changed to read something to the effect of, "It shall begin on (exact date (not day))" or "It shall begin as voted on by the wildlife board each November meeting previous to the season..."


Great points, ones that I agree with. But, this is reality and something needs before these conflicts get out of hand and we have a ugly situation. I truly hope and believe I400 will get passed in 2008, but that is on only 5 LE units, that would still leave 10 LE units where possible conflicts could/will happen. I see this as an easy fix while we work on changing season dates and working on ways to get the legislature to change the law on the rifle deer opener. I say it should be a varied opener determined by the Wildlife Board with MAJOR input from the DWR. I believe the elk season dates can/should be changed even with the current rifle deer opener date set. The battle is going to be getting the rifle elk hunters on board, that will be a MAJOR war and will take lots of work from MANY folks from all weapon types to come together on how to improve the LE situation. This proposal being presented next month does NOT affect rifle/muzzy hunters, so there will be fewer people against it. I did not write this proposal or play a part in it being brought forward, but I DO support it and believe it WILL help many archers who get lucky enough to draw a LE tag on one of the units that also issue spike tags. We win the war one battle at a time, this is just one battle in the war to get the rifle hunt out of September.

Archerben wrote:


> what gives an LE elk hunter any more right to hunt a particular herd than a general season spike/cow hunter? Both tag holders have permits issued by the same agency and are hunting on the same public land.


Ben, you are missing the forest for the trees, NOBODY is saying the LE elk hunter has "any more right to hunt a particular herd", that is why we want to change season dates, to MINIMIZE the conflicts. We do NOT need archers in-fighting, that will NOT help the future of archery one bit! Give the LE hunters *five* freakin days w/o competing with spike hunters, I do NOT see the rifle and muzzy LE hunters having to compete with spike hunters for their ENTIRE hunt, all we are asking for is *FIVE* days! Ben, you also know who pushed this, and you KNOW he gets 'off the road', yet he had conflicts with hunters who, like you have admitted to *ME* face to face, chase bugles when hunting spikes. You can hunt spikes EVERY year, how often does a hunter get a LE tag? Why can't he have *five* days w/o competing with *you*? LIke I said, rifle hunters get 11 days to hunt without spike hunters, same for the muzzy hunters. Archery LE hunters have the least effective weapon, yet they compete with archery deer hunters, spike/antlerless hunters, the grouse opener, rifle hunters scouting, and so on. I think it is fair to say that archers contend with by far the most 'competition' with by far the least effective weapon, and *you* think giving them *FIVE* days w/o ONE of the competing factors is unreasonable? WOW!

PRO


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Archerben wrote:


> I won't argure that these conficts happen, but how often do they happen during the last week of the season? Based on my experience I would say so little that it is insignificant. Rather, they probably happen most often from the opener through Labor Day since that is when most of the hunters are in the field.


If this is the case, then WHY would you object to the proposal? Are you concerned with all archers, or just yourself? If most are hunting BEFORE Labor Day, this proposal does NOT affect most of the archery elk hunters. *MOST* LE archery elk hunters hunt the last week more than the opening week, that is true on ALL the LE units, that is a FACT. Spike/cow hunters may prefer the earlier part of the hunt, but MOST LE hunters prefer the last week of the hunt.

PRO


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

My point is that the number of conflicts during that last five days is so small that there is no reason to eliminate that oppurtunity for those who choose to pursue it. 

One more thing...I find that whenever somebody disagrees / argues against your opinion you tend to throw accusations back at them of being selfish and thinking only of themselves. It's getting really old. You're trying to take oppurtunity away from thousands so that a few hundred have the mountains to themselves. It seems to me that those representing the limited entry hunters in this situation are the ones being selfish.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

archerben said:


> My point is that the number of conflicts during that last five days is so small that there is no reason to eliminate that oppurtunity for those who choose to pursue it.
> 
> One more thing...I find that whenever somebody disagrees / argues against your opinion you tend to throw accusations back at them of being selfish and thinking only of themselves. It's getting really old. You're trying to take oppurtunity away from thousands so that a few hundred have the mountains to themselves. *It seems to me that those representing the limited entry hunters in this situation are the ones being selfish.[/*quote:15wbt5af]
> 
> ...


[/quote:15wbt5af][/quote:15wbt5af]

NO opportunity will be 'lost', NONE. Archers will still get 23 days to hunt spikes/cows (same as now), and they will get five *more* days for the LE hunt, and 12 *more* days on the any-bull areas. Last I checked, there are as many any-bull area hunters as spike hunters, so don't say this is just for the LE select few. This will benefit far more than it will 'hurt'.

PRO


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

True that no days are lost, but in my opinion, losing the best week of the hunt is a loss of oppurtunity.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

archerben said:


> True that no days are lost, but in my opinion, losing the best week of the hunt is a loss of oppurtunity.


Now we are making progress, now you are bringing up a legit concern. I can even agree to a point that the last week is "the best week", however, archery spike hunters kill at a 11% success rate, I seriouly doubt the success rate is much/if at all higher the last week for hunting spikes. There IS a clear difference in success rates for mature bulls from the first two weeks vs the last week. You as an archery can also STILL hunt any-bulls and cows on the any-bull areas for an EXTRA 12 days, minimizing the 'lost' opportunity. I dare say there are a whole lot of any-bull area archery hunters who will LOVE this, so to say that this is just about the LE hunters is simply NOT true.

PRO


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

> Funny, you think this is a slam on me, when as I have stated, I did NOT draw up this proposal nor will I be the UBA rep presenting this. That would be the President of your archery club, if you have an issue with him, I suggest you take it up with him, face to face cowboy.


I have no problem talking to Roy face to face and, in fact, have done so concerning this very issue in the past. To my recollection you were there also. I appologize for misinterpreting this as your proposal. Now that you have cleared that up, I would like to hear where you stand on the issue.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

You are correct, I WAS there, as were you, that does not mean you drew this up anymore than it does mean I did.

I like the proposal, anytime we can minimize conflicts between archers I am in favor of it. It takes many years vested to draw a LE tag, the least we could/should do is give them five days to the mountain w/o outside interference. As far as I see it, unless they make rifle and muzzy LE hunters compete with spike hunters, they should NOT make archers. Those who draw a LE tag on a unit that issues spike tags is at a disadvantage compared to those who draw a LE archery tag on units that do NOT issue spike tags, many of whom have no idea what they are up against until they have a good bull coming in, only to have a spike/cow hunter bump the bull.Then the potential for all $%## to break lose is very high.

This proposal does NOT affect me personally, as the LE unit I WILL draw does not issue spike tags and I do NOT hunt spikes (EVER). This proposal has my support because it makes sense and is the minimum we should be doing on this issue. I, in the grand scheme of things want to see the rifle hunt moved out of September on ALL but 8-10 LE units, give the bulk of September to archers, with the LE tag holders getting atleast one full week to themselves. But, that is an uphill battle, this proposal should fly thru with very little opposition. Meaning, many benefit while we continue to fight for other improvements for archers. This is politics, we can NOT get everything we want, and we sure can NOT get it when we want it (RIGHT NOW).

PRO


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## Elk Addict (Sep 17, 2007)

Pro,

I had a run-in with a LE hunter on the second day of the archery elk hunt. I was sitting at a waterhole and had a guy walk in with a cameraman in tow. They didn't see me until I waved at them to draw their attention. I talked with them for about 5 minutes and they had the gall to ask me how long I was going to be hunting that area. Since I have hunted that particular area for the past 8 years I don't really see where it's any of their business and told them that I'd be there for the next 10 days or so. The "hunter" or at least the guy carrying the bow had the gall to stand there and say that he didn't see why the DWR allowed spike hunters to hunt when he had a LE tag. I told him that it wasn't the spike hunters fault, that he needed to take that up with the DWR. I told him that I thought that we should all be able to hunt the rut and that would make it much better hunting for all of us. 

My point is that it's not the spike hunters fault, we're just playing with the cards we're dealt. Don't take the best week away from spike hunters in order to appease the LE hunters, that's just putting a band aid on a gaping wound. I'm going to start looking into out of state hunts, Utah's game management strategies are geared toward that have's more than the common hunter. JMHO


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Elk Addict, I am NOT blaming the spike hunter, I am sure that the LE hunter is every bit as much in the wrong in these conflicts, the point is we need to remove the conflict. You say it is a band-aid, what do you think is the 'solution'? Do rifle LE hunters have spike hunters sitting on 'their' water hole? Hell no! How about muzzy LE hunters? No way!

Why is the last week 'better' for spike hunters? My experience is spikes are much easier to call in earlier in the season, before they get whipped and chased off everytime they come close to a cow. Later on in the season I have seen spikes run the opposite way when a real cows mew. I say it is easier to call a spike in in August than during ANY part of September. It is also more productive sitting water in August.

Please tell me what magic wand to wave to solve this problem instead of just put a "band-aid" on it. Inquiring minds want to know.

You make a way out there comment,


> Utah's game management strategies are geared toward that have's more than the common hunter.


Who is the have's and who is the common hunter? This benefits all the any-bull area hunters, are they the 'haves' or the 'common hunters'? They get an *extra twelve days* of hunting. The 'common hunter' who hunts spikes still gets his/her 23 day hunt, then they can jump over to an any-bull area and hunt another *twelve days*, seems like the 'common hunter' is getting a great deal here. The 'haves' get a whopping *five days* without spike hunters hunting the same elk herd, man you are right, the 'haves' just keep getting more and the 'common hunter' keeps getting hosed. :roll:

PRO


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## bloodtrail (Sep 20, 2007)

Please get this passed. I would love to hunt deer and elk on the same date. Any extension of the archery elk hunts is great by me. By the time the elk hunt opens, all of the elk have been spooked by the masses of deer hunters.

The more we get the rifle hunters out of the rut in the LE areas the more often we all can hunt. I struggle to understand why the rifle hunts are in the rut and the archery hunts are not! Go figure? 

I still say the time has come for a dedicated hunter program for elk!


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## ut1031 (Sep 13, 2007)

Good reply Bloodtrail.......Changing things are like learning to walk, it takes time and we will trip ourselves up, but eventually we get it right! This proposal is a setp in the right direction.......
AS for the dedicated elk comment, I am all for that as well!!!!!
ut1031


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

+1 on the dedicated elk. 

I would like to see them have a draw for a special elk tag that let's you hunt all 3 weapons in general any bull units. Make it a prerequisite that you have 20 hrs donated to the DWR BEFORE you apply for the tag. Give away 1000-2000 tags. You could take them out of the respective tag pools and no one would even notice.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

+100 on that Treehugger...I would love that deal...put all my time at Lee Kay..or the youth archery project...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> +1 on the dedicated elk.
> 
> I would like to see them have a draw for a special elk tag that let's you hunt all 3 weapons in general any bull units. Make it a prerequisite that you have 20 hrs donated to the DWR BEFORE you apply for the tag. Give away 1000-2000 tags. *You could take them out of the respective tag pools and no one would even notice*.


Please explain which 'pools' you are referring to.

PRO


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

I would assume that tree is talking about taking them from the general tag numbers. You would have to take from all three general seasons Arcery/muzzle/and rifle to cover the 1-2000 tags and keep harvest rates close to the same.

I may be wrong but thats would seem logical to me for something like this.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Archery elk tags do NOT have a quota, so the tags would have to come from the 11,000 rifle/muzzy pool. Or are we talking about the any-bull areas to be included as well? 

PRO


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr wrote:
+1 on the dedicated elk. 

I would like to see them have a draw for a special elk tag that let's you hunt all 3 weapons in general any bull units.

Any Bull units inluded as tree mentioned.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> Any Bull units inluded as tree mentioned.


I try not to read what 'tree' writes. :shock:

If this is just on the any-bull areas and not spike tags, I have no problems.

PRO


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

No spike units included in the idea. Who in their right mind would want to chase a spike around for 3 months?

Make it open bull areas only.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> > Any Bull units inluded as tree mentioned.
> 
> 
> I try not to read what 'tree' writes. :shock:
> ...


You lie, you love reading my outrageous ramblings. :wink:


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

Fine but can we have the pahvant as an any bull? My smilees don't work at work so picture a big cheeser right here

I assume that will have to go for a ten page discussion with a few insults thrown back and forth. Or we could all meet and talk about it like gentlem... oh he!! Lets just break out the ring and have some UFC over it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> No spike units included in the idea.* Who in their right mind would want to chase a spike around for 3 months*?
> 
> Make it open bull areas only.


Weatherby would li......oh wait, you said in their right mind. I would ask, who in their right mind would want to chase a spike around AT ALL? :? :wink:

PRO


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Weatherby would li......oh wait, you said in their right mind. I would ask, who in their right mind would want to chase a spike around AT ALL?


Someone has to do it.


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## MarkM (Sep 7, 2007)

I really like the proposal that UBA is presenting and thnk it is a good first step to getting more things changed down the road. I have one question though in reguard to extending the General Archery "Any Bull" season one more week to the 4th Saturday in September. This wouldn't conflict with any Limited Entry elk hunts as from what I can see in the Proclamation there isn't any, but what about anut the OIL Moose hunts going on at the same time in several of the Any bull areas? Would there be a concern about wearing hunter orange?

Mark


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Mark wrote:


> what about anut the OIL Moose hunts going on at the same time in several of the Any bull areas? Would there be a concern about wearing hunter orange


The Youth Elk hunt will be going on then as well, so orange would be required. Good question/point.

PRO


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I like this proposal except for one small thing: I wish the hunts were separated more. I wish the deer hunt didn't overlap the elk hunt as much and that there were a time period when people could not hunt both deer and elk. I believe this puts fewer people on the mountains and makes hunting more enjoyable.


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## north slope (Sep 8, 2007)

Pro you missed your call in life....you should have been a lawyer. I read all of this post and all I can say is good luck and I am glad I found a sweet spot on the north slope.








Pro maybe you should take a cool bath and soothe your sack.








Hang out in a tree and breath fresh wallow air...








Or just sit a wait and focus on the real goal....


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> I like this proposal except for one small thing: I wish the hunts were separated more. *I wish the deer hunt didn't overlap the elk hunt as much *and that there were a time period when people could not hunt both deer and elk. I believe this puts fewer people on the mountains and makes hunting more enjoyable.


Yet over in the Big Game section wyo2ut wrote:


> I didn't find it funny at all...*I wish there were some overlap between the two seasons.* I loved hunting in Wyoming where I could hunt both elk and deer at the same time...


What the hell? The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round! :roll:

PRO


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> wyoming2utah wrote:
> I like this proposal except for one small thing: I wish the hunts were separated more. I wish the deer hunt didn't overlap the elk hunt as much and that there were a time period when people could not hunt both deer and elk. I believe this puts fewer people on the mountains and makes hunting more enjoyable.
> 
> Yet over in the Big Game section wyo2ut wrote:
> I didn't find it funny at all...I wish there were some overlap between the two seasons. I loved hunting in Wyoming where I could hunt both elk and deer at the same time...


HAHAHAHA I was thinking the same thing. Maybe we are discovering something here called "Multiple Personalities"?


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

How did I miss this great idea??? I must be off in my own little world or something. Great idea Pro, I would be in full support of this one.


+100 1/8


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bwhntr wrote:


> How did I miss this great idea??? I must be off in my own little world or something. Great idea Pro, I would be in full support of this one.


So, I guess you will be at the RAC to voice your support! Sweet, thanks for showing up. :twisted:

PRO


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> bwhntr wrote:
> 
> 
> > How did I miss this great idea??? I must be off in my own little world or something. Great idea Pro, I would be in full support of this one.
> ...


Sure...what evening again? You are talking the Northern RAC right? Why the evil face??? |-O-|


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> Sure...what evening again? You are talking the Northern RAC right? Why the evil face???


November 19th for the Northern RAC. The "evil face" is just me being evil. 8)

PRO


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## suave300 (Sep 11, 2007)

Hey, how long do the RAC meetings last?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

suave300 said:


> Hey, how long do the RAC meetings last?


3-4 hours for the Bucks and Bulls RAC's is the norm. Depends on how many people SHOW UP and make comments.

PRO


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

It's on my calendar. >>O


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## callofthewild (Sep 7, 2007)

i will be at the one on the 13th in springville. it is set in my phone to remind me so i do not forget.


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## suave300 (Sep 11, 2007)

Boy, this is awesome. It sounds like we are going to have a good showing this year. I'll see you all there!!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > I like this proposal except for one small thing: I wish the hunts were separated more. *I wish the deer hunt didn't overlap the elk hunt as much *and that there were a time period when people could not hunt both deer and elk. I believe this puts fewer people on the mountains and makes hunting more enjoyable.
> ...


Pro, are you really this clueless? I like some overlap, but not complete overlap...if you start both the archery elk and deer hunt at the same time, you have complete overlap of the deer hunt with the elk hunt. I would like to hunt deer some time without the extra elk hunters.

Right now, though, I cannot hunt deer and elk with a rifle at the same time; there is NO overlap. It would be fun if there were at least one day of overlap to allow rifle hunters to hunt both deer and elk at the same time.

I do like SOME overlap just not COMPLETE overlap!

Some other problems with this proposal that no one seems to mention: how about the overlap of other hunts? If the archery elk hunt is extended, wouldn't it overlap into some of the LE rifle hunts (like some of the moose hunts and youth hunts)? Would this also cause some issues with hunter orange because rifle hunters would be hunting with archery hunters...


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > I like this proposal except for one small thing: I wish the hunts were separated more. *I wish the deer hunt didn't overlap the elk hunt as much *and that there were a time period when people could not hunt both deer and elk. I believe this puts fewer people on the mountains and makes hunting more enjoyable.
> ...


Pro, are you really this clueless? I like some overlap, but not complete overlap...if you start both the archery elk and deer hunt at the same time, you have complete overlap of the deer hunt with the elk hunt. I would like to hunt deer some time without the extra elk hunters.

Right now, though, I cannot hunt deer and elk with a rifle at the same time; there is NO overlap. It would be fun if there were at least one day of overlap to allow rifle hunters to hunt both deer and elk at the same time.

I do like SOME overlap just not COMPLETE overlap!

Some other problems with this proposal that no one seems to mention: how about the overlap of other hunts? If the archery elk hunt is extended, wouldn't it overlap into some of the LE rifle hunts (like some of the moose hunts and youth hunts)? Would this also cause some issues with hunter orange because rifle hunters would be hunting with archery hunters...


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

The "other hunts" have been discussed.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Mr 'clued in' wrote:


> Pro, are you really this clueless? I like some overlap, but not complete overlap...if you start both the archery elk and deer hunt at the same time, you have complete overlap of the deer hunt with the elk hunt. I would like to hunt deer some time without the extra elk hunters.
> 
> Right now, though, I cannot hunt deer and elk with a rifle at the same time; there is NO overlap. It would be fun if there were at least one day of overlap to allow rifle hunters to hunt both deer and elk at the same time.
> 
> ...


This just, you could hunt deer the last five days of the general archery deer season with *zero* spike/antlerless archery elk hunters. You will have a few LE archery elk hunters and thats it, which means you will have about the same 'overlap' as now.

As for the rifle issue, I would love to see the general deer/elk and LE deer/elk hunts occur at the same time, atleast have some overlap. *You* figure out a way to get the deer rifle opener changed and I'll buy you lunch. Talk is cheap. NOt sure how this proposal has ANYTHING to do with the rifle hunt however. Of course, I am "clueless".

If you had bothered to read all the posts, you would see were the wearing of orange was brought up and addressed. Now who is clueless? Hmmmm.

PRO


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