# They're going to get your money...



## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

Fair warning, this will probably come off as a rant, and it is. but I cant be the only one bitten by this. 

This is my first year to actually put in for any kind of draw in utah, as i just moved here last fall for graduate school. I've spent hours on this forum gleaning information, as well as hours scouring through the not so simple website that is DWR. I put my wife and I in both for general season archery deer, and LE archery elk, both on the cache. Unsuccessful on elk, but successful on deer. yay for us. However, being from Alabama, I would like to take advantage of every opportunity to chase elk in my short time here, so i put in for the antlerless. Now i didn't go willy nilly about this. I looked up this years available permits, last years odds. compared numbers as far as which units got more tags this year than last, looked at terrain, etc. I really feel i did my due diligence as far as trying to give my self the best chances for my wife and I to draw. I have a fair understanding of how the utah draw system works (at least as much as a newbie can) and was really struggling with what areas to put as 1st and 2nd choice, since it is my understanding that second choice is pretty much useless anyways. and two days ago, i filled out our apps. 

Here comes the problem. Its been bugging me about what i chose between the two, so i have decided to switch them. got online to do so and even called. Now, utah is a system where they can look up your tag from the computer in a game warden's truck. an untrained booger picking walmart working teenager can successfully sell you a license, and you can do pretty much anything you need online. But God forbid you rethink a decision on an application. In this glorious aforementioned system, one thing does not exist. an "edit application" button. now I've seen a lot of forum members complain about the misuse of money by dwr and all make valid points. but holy crap, it couldn't cost them that much more to add this tiny feature that seems fairly common place. but wait there's a withdraw application button. I'm sure they came free from the server company though. So now, in order to get a good nights sleep knowing Im satisfied with my application, (which still is no gimme on success) i have to forfiet the $20 on my original application, in order to pay another $20 for the new application for me and the wife. congratulations, DWR. you got yours. rant over.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Hmmm he's from Alabama and he can even spell...not too many of those folks around. :shock: My niece's husband is from Alabama and he can't count past 18. 10 fingers and 8 toes....so very sad.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

just be glad you changed your mind now instead of later. it gets expensive after the draw. and yes, they've had plenty of my money because i made poor choices. just because you see a WMA in a great area doesn't mean its not land locked by private. ever wonder what your elk tag tastes like....buyer beware


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

I guess thats as nice as an underhanded compliment can be, lost one. and ADP I've tasted elk tag. Tried my hand at the extended archery on wasatch front. every two hour drive home empty handed, the aftertaste grew a little more.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

JMG- I hear you. They should make it easy and inexpensive to change your mind PRIOR to the deadline. That said, have you thought about just doing the OTC bull hunt? If you hunt an area with control tags, you can buy a cow permit too for $30. Of course, you're now up to a minimum $50 (bull only) or $80 (bull and cow), but you are GUARANTEED to have a tag. Hell, if you were driving two hours to hunt the front, there are any bull units closer than that too you. Or you roll the dice and grab a spike tag and see if you can find one of those elusive buggers on the Cache or any other spike unit.

Just a thought.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Jmgardner said:


> I guess thats as nice as an underhanded compliment can be, lost one. and ADP I've tasted elk tag. Tried my hand at the extended archery on wasatch front. every two hour drive home empty handed, the aftertaste grew a little more.


the only poor choices you made were applying too early and trusting a state run agency to do anything that made sense. i moved here from the south back in 2002. both the hunting and permitting process is vastly different from what i was used to. it sounds like you took your time to make decisions. just remeber the state likes your money. they don't care if you're happy about it.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> Hmmm he's from Alabama and he can even spell...not too many of those folks around. :shock: My niece's husband is from Alabama and he can't count past 18. 10 fingers and 8 toes....so very sad.


Hey, is there a little rivalry between Louisiana and Alabama? I thought we put Mississippi in there to keep you guys seperated


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## Stucco_Pimp (Mar 13, 2008)

It is frustrating! This has been a problem for me a couple times. I have two daughters, a son, my wife, and my Dad that I do the app for. I have made a few mistakes over the years and haven't been able to change them without paying more fee's. After I pay $30 per person for the 3 tags I put them in for and buy the a license for the people who's license is expired, I'm usually out a several hundred dollars. The last think I want to do is pay more fee's. I think you should be able to change things around during the app period. I guess as much as the DWR encourages hunters try to fill out their apps early, and as helpful as that would be to keep their website overloaded the night of the deadline, it's best just to wait until the last bug has been ironed out before filling out that app.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

well as i mentioned I'm in grad school and taking a pretty rough load this summer and fall, so i stuck with the cache just for the amount of public land as compared to some of the any bull units, and the fact that its close enough for me to scout without giving up full consecutive days if that makes sense. and archery so id at least have 4 or 5 weekends if i couldn't slip away during the week. i plan on buying a spike tag in case i see one while deer hunting i won't have to hold a tear back as i watch it walk away. i do appreciate the suggestion though! as as far as a rivalry, I've never known of one other than the fact that auburn is the only real tigers in the sec ;-) and as far as missing fingers, toes, and teeth, or not being able to count them, id say alabama mississippi and louisiana are pretty neck and neck with each other


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

and stucco i think you make the perfect point.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

LostLouisianian said:


> Hmmm he's from Alabama and he can even spell...not too many of those folks around. :shock: My niece's husband is from Alabama and he can't count past 18. 10 fingers and 8 toes....so very sad.


Sometimes your humor causes me to ponder------


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

I put in and somehow clicked the hunt below what I meant to and had to withdrawal and start over. In their defense it did give me like three chances to double check stuff. I didn't cause I swear I double checked the one I clicked, oops..


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

App Fee should be locked in at the time of application, with free edits up until the app gets formally processed.


-DallanC


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

Plus, it's a private party that conducts the draw and applications. So I don't think your blaming the right people.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

the private party is payed by the DWR to run the process I'm sure. probably overpayed at that. so it is still valid to blame the DWR for allowing the process to be how it is.


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## RoosterKiller (May 27, 2011)

Jmgardner said:


> Fair warning, this will probably come off as a rant, and it is. but I cant be the only one bitten by this.
> 
> This is my first year to actually put in for any kind of draw in utah, as i just moved here last fall for graduate school. I've spent hours on this forum gleaning information, as well as hours scouring through the not so simple website that is DWR. I put my wife and I in both for general season archery deer, and LE archery elk, both on the cache. Unsuccessful on elk, but successful on deer. yay for us. However, being from Alabama, I would like to take advantage of every opportunity to chase elk in my short time here, so i put in for the antlerless. Now i didn't go willy nilly about this. I looked up this years available permits, last years odds. compared numbers as far as which units got more tags this year than last, looked at terrain, etc. I really feel i did my due diligence as far as trying to give my self the best chances for my wife and I to draw. I have a fair understanding of how the utah draw system works (at least as much as a newbie can) and was really struggling with what areas to put as 1st and 2nd choice, since it is my understanding that second choice is pretty much useless anyways. and two days ago, i filled out our apps.
> 
> Here comes the problem. Its been bugging me about what i chose between the two, so i have decided to switch them. got online to do so and even called. Now, utah is a system where they can look up your tag from the computer in a game warden's truck. an untrained booger picking walmart working teenager can successfully sell you a license, and you can do pretty much anything you need online. But God forbid you rethink a decision on an application. In this glorious aforementioned system, one thing does not exist. an "edit application" button. now I've seen a lot of forum members complain about the misuse of money by dwr and all make valid points. but holy crap, it couldn't cost them that much more to add this tiny feature that seems fairly common place. but wait there's a withdraw application button. I'm sure they came free from the server company though. So now, in order to get a good nights sleep knowing Im satisfied with my application, (which still is no gimme on success) i have to forfiet the $20 on my original application, in order to pay another $20 for the new application for me and the wife. congratulations, DWR. you got yours. rant over.


Some people don't know when they got it good. You could have been a non-resident that put in for wasatch cow and pay $218 for a tag that they then sold for $93 to anyone that had a spike tag for the same unit.
I wish it only cost me $20


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

Jmgardner said:


> the private party is payed by the DWR to run the process I'm sure. probably overpayed at that. so it is still valid to blame the DWR for allowing the process to be how it is.


Actually, my understanding of how it works is that the private party collects the money you paid in application fees, keeps most of it, and sends DWR the rest. Why would it behoove them to change it when they both get money from it?


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

There is probably a method to the madness. I cant tell you how many times ive applied and then realized I goofed or had second thoughts about what i should have selected or selected as 1, 2, or 3. If the DWR allowed unlimited editing of ap choices until the deadline I`m guessing thier administrative cost for the system would skyrocket. Bottom line is everyone is responsible for your own app. If you make a mistake or have second thoughts its your deal...own it. But with that said I can sympathize with you. It sucks because it is a once a year deal and it blows to mess it up. I've been there.


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## polarbear (Aug 1, 2011)

bowgy said:


> Hey, is there a little rivalry between Louisiana and Alabama? I thought we put Mississippi in there to keep you guys seperated


No, Mississippi is there to make everyone feel better about themselves. Trust me. I grew up in Arkansas.

I feel your pain Jmgardner. I thought I was all set until I drew an expo tag. That changed everything including my apps, which made a significant dent in my wallet. Like you, I assumed there was an edit option. Sadly mistaken.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

im not tryin to play victim. and this past fall i even paid out of state for my tags and license cuz i hadn't been here long enough yet. don't get me wrong, i am always willing to put money out for a chance to hunt. heck i just bought the wife and I turkey tags thinking i had time to hunt only to go 3 times and eat tag soup. still worth it, cuz i was hunting. this post really is just about the lack of the edit button. i get the administrative costs angle, but i don't think it justifies not having one. and if the dwr allows some private party to keep most of the money from the apps, then that still is a mistake on the part of the DWR so they're not off the hook.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Jmgardner said:


> and ADP I've tasted elk tag.


then you must know that it tastes better than deer tag.;-)


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

FWIW, the private company, Systems Consultants, does not keep most of the money. The way it works is that SC initially collects all of the money along with the application, but deposits it into a DWR account on a daily basis and the DWR later pays SC $3.01 for each application up to a minimum guaranteed number (it varies depending on which draw it is). For anything over the minimum guaranteed number, CS gets only $1.25 per app. Of the $6.99 (or the $8.75) the DWR retains, there are some postage and survey costs which also vary depending on the draw, but that amount doesn't stay with CS. It goes to USPS or some survey company through CS and it's about $.70 per app.

Now, you may think Systems Consultants are overpaid, but the $3.01 covers more than just the draw process. It also covers preparing and managing a reminder mailing database based on past applicants; the printing, addressing, and mailing of 182,000 reminder postcards for the Buck, Bull OIL draw (48,400 for Antlerless); printing, addressing and mailing of 4,000 letters to lifetime license holders; the set up and manning of 8 phone lines and 1 fax line 24/7 for 11 months per year for inquiries and questions; processing of all applications; handle and verify all credit card transactions and call, up to four times, any applicants whose card is denied to get it cleared; conduct the draw which we all think is way too complicated; notify ALL applicants of the results via emails; print, address and mail the permits; follow up with surveys and survey reminders and finally; calculate and print draw odd and harvest reports. Are they overpaid? I guess that depends on who you're asking or who you're comparing them to.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Dunkem said:


> Sometimes your humor causes me to ponder------


I just don't understand you people, you sound just like my wife.... ;-) :grin:


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Jmgardner said:


> well as i mentioned I'm in grad school and taking a pretty rough load this summer and fall, so i stuck with the cache just for the amount of public land as compared to some of the any bull units, and the fact that its close enough for me to scout without giving up full consecutive days if that makes sense. and archery so id at least have 4 or 5 weekends if i couldn't slip away during the week. i plan on buying a spike tag in case i see one while deer hunting i won't have to hold a tear back as i watch it walk away. i do appreciate the suggestion though! as as far as a rivalry, I've never known of one other than the fact that auburn is the only real tigers in the sec ;-) and as far as missing fingers, toes, and teeth, or not being able to count them, id say alabama mississippi and louisiana are pretty neck and neck with each other


Actually at LSU there was a guy in one of my classes that had 6 toes on each foot, true story. But alas he was from Alabama...TRUE STORY !(He could count to 22 so by Alabama standards he was "gifted")... Who is Auburn? Is that the team that has a bird for a mascot while LSU brings an actual full grown Bengal Tiger onto the field as their mascot?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I thought men could always count up odd numbers.


-DallanC


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

hate to say. you dont have no right to bitch because you choose to change your picks not the dwr. Im glad they make people pay another 10 bucks to change there picks.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

pretty sure this is America and I have the right to bitch about whatever i want. and obviously others agree with me. you can be happy or not. and i know its not that big of a deal but it is just another pain in the but about the system.


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## cornerfinder (Dec 4, 2008)

He said booger picking, funny


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

cornerfinder said:


> He said booger picking, funny


Yeah but that's coming from a guy who went to a school where their mascot is a box of tide detergent and a roll of toilet paper on a wooden stick.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

ok mr corndog, Im an auburn alum, not that school across the state.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

LostLouisianian said:


> I just don't understand you people, you sound just like my wife.... ;-) :grin:


:blah::blah:


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Jmgardner said:


> ok mr corndog, Im an auburn alum, not that school across the state.


My apologies bubba, I actually like AU. It's that other school that I can't stand. I have a really good friend who is an AU alum. There have been some epic football battles between those two Tiger SEC schools. By the way, help me understand something. Why does AU have an eagle for a mascot instead of a tiger?


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

The eagle is not a mascot. Auburn the tiger, 7 time national mascot champion, is and forever will be the mascot. "War eagle" is just our greeting, cheer, saying, etc. comes from a story in the 1800s about a professor who found an eagle on a civil war battlefield and nursed it back to health. It went with him ever where and at a game against Georgia, the eagle randomly circled the field, people started cheering, and the next play , auburn scored and won. And now the eagle circling the field is just a tradition. But its not the mascot


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

RonyChapmen said:


> oh sh/t i understand you


Great first post :O||:

On a 5 year old thread.:O_D:


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Seems to be a few fresh orders of spam popping up in some of these old threads today.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Mtnbeer said:


> Actually, my understanding of how it works is that the private party collects the money you paid in application fees, keeps most of it, and sends DWR the rest. Why would it behoove them to change it when they both get money from it?


Actually, you're misunderstanding how it works! The private party, Systems Consultants, returns ALL of the application fee money to the DWR as it is collected and is later paid $2.53 (currently per their contract) for each application they process. In other words, DWR keeps most of it and sends the private party the rest! To change the process would require some new programing and a re-write of the Statement of Work and would cost the DWR more money, so if you want to blame someone, it's the DWR!


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