# Crossbows Illegal?



## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

Why are they illegal in utah?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

o-||


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Oh, and you spelled it wrong, it's Cross-gun.


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

If it's like a gun why can't you use it on the rifle hunt? Or can you


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

The only mention of "crossbow" in the proc is on page 8 indicating that the disabled may use them and on page 42 about how it is not legal to use as archery equipment. However, I am under the same understanding that they may not be used during any hunt either except for the disabled exception for archery.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm curious as to why you would want to use one. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just curious. :|


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## flyfisher117 (Jun 29, 2009)

because they shoot very fast and hit very hard so the poor people using bows have to compete with you


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> I'm curious as to why you would want to use one. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just curious. :|


I was just wondering why they are illegal even for the rifle.

Thanks


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

From what I've seen they are about the same speed as a compound and shoot a smaller arrow. So it would have less kinetic energy.


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## flyfisher117 (Jun 29, 2009)

fixed blade said:


> From what I've seen they are about the same speed as a compound and shoot a smaller arrow. So it would have less kinetic energy.


idk how much a bow has but a xbow hits with almost 100 ftpounds of energy, and x bow targets are a lot more dense so that the bolt dont go through


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

flyfisher117 said:


> because they shoot very fast *and hit very hard* so the poor people using bows have to compete with you


Uuuum, this statement is FALSE. They don't hit hard because there is no mass in front of all that speed. They shoot a little knitting needle of a projectile that looses extreme amounts of momentum going down range because of it's lack of mass. Therefore crossbows actually have less effective killing range than a compound or even a traditional bow. They are fast, and accurate. That's all! They are LOUD, they are heavy, and they require that you walk around with a ****ed, loaded bow where you're NOT the one holding the weight of the bow back. (this is what our state has a problem with as far as legality) If they were legal, and I'm glad they're not, I think they would be lumped in with the muzzy people as far as a season goes.


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## CP1 (Oct 1, 2007)

We have a crossbow here in the office that shoots a 425 grain bolt at dang near 400 FPS- whats not fast and hard about that? I might also add that it is very -very - accurate!

I personally cant stand the things- loud- noisy- & heavy- but if Utah ever has a season for them I will probably own one.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> flyfisher117 said:
> 
> 
> > because they shoot very fast *and hit very hard* so the poor people using bows have to compete with you
> ...


Bingo! They are far less effective than a compound bow. Less energy and you are very limited on distance as they lose energy very fast for the very reasons Tex pointed out.


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

bwhntr said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > flyfisher117 said:
> ...


Can someone please explain how they lose energy/momentum fast? Last I checked energy *AND* momentum are conserved. The difference in energy loss (its actually energy transfer to vibrations, heat, etc) between an arrow and a crossbow bolt are negligible. I would dare say that they lose energy at exactly the same rate.

I am with TEX, they are not allowed because of this


> they require that you walk around with a ****ed, loaded bow where you're NOT the one holding the weight of the bow back.


Well and the fact that they are just plain ****.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Can someone please explain how they lose energy/momentum fast? Last I checked energy AND momentum are conserved. The difference in energy loss (its actually energy transfer to vibrations, heat, etc) between an arrow and a crossbow bolt are negligible. I would dare say that they lose energy at exactly the same rate.


I knew I'd get Mr. scientist math genius out sooner or later...

So Mr Genius, Your saying a crossbow bolt that weighs 300 grains will retain just as much energy as an arrow that weighs 580 grains 50 yards down range? Have you been into the glue again! *\-\* And who said anything about vibration and heat? What the hell does that have to do with anything?


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm no scientist or math genius but my uncle shoots a crossbow and kills deer and elk both without a problem. The draw weights on crossbows are up over 200 lbs. Do any normal archers have their bows cranked that heavy? Didn't think so. That's why the modern crossbow is as effective as other bows. Of course our compounds would murder crossbows if things were equal at 80 lbs. of draw, but that's not the way it works. My uncle's bow is superbly accurate. He punches bullseyes with absolute consistency.


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

Just when I thought you started to like me Tex. What can I say, I am a sucker for physics and mechanics.
First off you never answered this question:



MEEN said:


> Can someone please explain how they lose energy/momentum fast?


Which was a direct response to these two:


TEX-O-BOB said:


> They shoot a little knitting needle of a projectile that *looses extreme amounts of momentum going down range* because of it's lack of mass.





bwhntr said:


> Less energy and you are very limited on distance as *they lose energy very fast *for the very reasons Tex pointed out.


That is complete *BS* without any glue needed. Which is what I pointed out with this statement:


MEEN said:


> Last I checked energy AND momentum are conserved. The difference in energy loss (its actually energy transfer to vibrations, heat, etc) between an arrow and a crossbow bolt are negligible. I would dare say that they lose energy at exactly the same *rate*.





TEX-O-BOB said:


> Your saying a crossbow bolt that weighs 300 grains will retain just as much energy as an arrow that weighs 580 grains 50 yards down range?


I never said that. They have different energy, no doubt about it. What I will say is that they will retain energy at the same rate.


TEX-O-BOB said:


> Have you been into the glue again!


No but some hippie lettuce would be nice.


TEX-O-BOB said:


> And who said anything about vibration and heat? What the hell does that have to do with anything?


Everything! How do you think energy is lost from an arrow once it is shot? Energy is stored in the bow limbs and then transferred to the arrow once it is shot. Once that arrow is released from the bow it is traveling with an initial kinetic energy and initial momentum. That arrow will ALWAYS be traveling at the same KE/momentum because energy loss to heat/vibration is negligible unless it is shot uphill. At which point kinetic energy is converted to potential energy. Which by the way, your heavy arrow will lose MORE energy. PE = Mass*gravity*height

Quick summary: Energy lost in flight of arrow approximately 0! Energy lost in flight of crossbow bolt approximately 0! Which means rate of energy loss is the SAME. So a crossbow bolt absolutely does not lose energy faster than an arrow.


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

K thanks I got my info you can stop now.

Thanks


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## flyfisher117 (Jun 29, 2009)

katorade said:


> K thanks I got my info you can stop now.
> 
> Thanks


no!! we are not stopping we are going to get a good straight forward answer!! i want to know the truth!! the the lies ive been fed! **O**


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I believe the old ones had less KE but the new ones that are pushing 425 grn arrows close to 400 fps like some one else said is plenty of KE for any North American animal.

However the only guys you see totn the cross bows at the ranges look like this.







:shock: 
So that is why they are banned in Utah!!

Also as far as accuracy they suck. I have watched them in Vegas a couple of times and they are lucky to hit the target butt at twenty yards. these guys are also shooting the ones that look like a tweeked out target rifle.


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## flyfisher117 (Jun 29, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> I believe the old ones had less KE but the new ones that are pushing 425 grn arrows close to 400 fps like some one else said is plenty of KE for any North American animal.
> 
> However the only guys you see totn the cross bows at the ranges look like this.
> 
> ...


rofl where did you get this pic?


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> I believe the old ones had less KE but the new ones that are pushing 425 grn arrows close to 400 fps like some one else said is plenty of KE for any North American animal.
> 
> However the only guys you see totn the cross bows at the ranges look like this.
> 
> ...


Its about time someone posted up a back shot of TEX


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

flyfisher117 said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the old ones had less KE but the new ones that are pushing 425 grn arrows close to 400 fps like some one else said is plenty of KE for any North American animal.
> ...


It was at a cross-rifle shoot the other day. It was in fact Tex he scored a 200 on a Vegas round and took first place. His prize wasn't so good though cause they only had two guys and one girl in the competition so all he received was a coupon good for one glass of muscle milk. Which he downed in three seconds. His front photo with his milt mustache "rolf,lol" will be on the cover of cross-rifle issue 24.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

sometimes i kill myself! Is there anything wrong with laughing at your own jokes?

Sorry Tex 
I dont want to piss you off! Dont kick my arse! cause everyone you can see he is a big dude in that photo!


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

Oh man I needed a good laugh. Lol. TEX I can't wait until I get to meet you in person. I just hope your not rocking your fupa in those coveralls when that day comes.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

-_O- 

Oh dammit you guys are funny!

Meen I really can't tell if you're trying to dazzle me with your brilliance, or baffle me with your bullsh*t. I guess with higher education a lot of both is involved.

"When I think back on all the CRAP I learned in High School, it's a wonder I can think at all"

"Although my lack of education hasn't hurt me none, I can read the writing on the wall"


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> -_O-
> 
> Oh dammit you guys are funny!
> 
> ...


Its called Physics Tex, no bull**** involved. :lol:


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> -_O-
> 
> Oh dammit you guys are funny!
> 
> ...


Well I tried to think of something witty to say to this but nothing is coming to mind. So I guess I will respond to this by posing a question. Have you thought of using big heavy carbon arrows instead of your wood ones? The carbon arrows would store more of your bow's energy than the wood ones.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

I have, and I've actually killed stuff with carbon arrows. :shock: I use them when I don't have time to make wood arrows. Or, when I go someplace where the temp/humidity levels are drastically changed from where I'm at now. If I were ever go hunt Alaska or Africa I'd be packin Carbon for sure. You say "shoot a big heavy carbon arrow" _"heavy carbon arrow"_ is an oxymoron! Heavy? Compared to what? To make a carbon arrow heavy enough to work for me you gotta tweak it a little. 8) I use a foam impregnated carbon arrow. :wink: I've got a way to inject the carbon shaft with foam to add weight and stability. No, I don't screw around with all those miserable little weights and crap you can screw in the front and back. Most all carbons as they come from the factory are far too light for me. I need to be shooting at least 10 grains of arrow weight per pound of bow weight, I like 11 or 12 better. Example: I shoot a 590 grain carbon arrow out of my 55# recurve. 590 divided by 55 = 10.7 grains per pound. MY carbon arrows hit like a truck and absorb far more energy from my bow than a normal, hollow, wimpy carbon arrow. When I shoot wood out of that same bow they weigh closer to 650 grains. (11.8 grains per pound) So, when you say a carbon will store more of my bows energy... I beg to differ! And please don't bring the heat/friction argument up in here because I'll just role my eyes and ignore you. _(O)_


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> You say "shoot a big heavy carbon arrow" _"heavy carbon arrow"_ is an oxymoron! Heavy? Compared to what?


Compared to my light carbon arrow.  Your turtle bow needs a heavy arrow.



TEX-O-BOB said:


> I've got a way to inject the carbon shaft with foam to add weight and stability.


And don't forget you improved the stiffness of an already stiff arrow. Don't overlook stiffness.



TEX-O-BOB said:


> So, when you say a carbon will store more of my bows energy... I beg to differ! And please don't bring the heat/friction argument up in here because I'll just role my eyes and ignore you. _(O)_


 :roll: I knew you would differ, that's why I said what I said. That's the beauty of our relationship.

More of a bow's energy will be transferred to a carbon arrow because of stiffness. The wood arrow loses more energy due to heating/vibrating the surrounding air molecules because of how much it flexes in flight. You can think of it as only a portion of the 55 lbs of force you put into your bow is being transferred to a wood arrow. Where nearly ALL of the 55 lbs of force goes into a carbon arrow because of the stiffness properties.

A 650 grain carbon arrow would be the shiznit. Maybe my christmas present to you this year will be wood arrow wrapped in carbon fiber. 8)


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Stiff, stiffness, wood, shaft what are you guys talking about. :mrgreen: :lol:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> More of a bow's energy will be transferred to a carbon arrow because of stiffness. The wood arrow loses more energy due to heating/vibrating the surrounding air molecules because of how much it flexes in flight. You can think of it as only a portion of the 55 lbs of force you put into your bow is being transferred to a wood arrow. Where nearly ALL of the 55 lbs of force goes into a carbon arrow because of the stiffness properties.


Again, your point is MOOT. My carbons and my woods have the same "flex" in flight because they both spine out at exactly the same. If one was stiffer than the other, they wouldn't fly the same. :shock: They have to be spined the SAME to fly the SAME out of the SAME bow. (can you wrap your big fat educated brain around that concept) Spine is the single most important part of good arrow flight in traditional bows. When a carbon arrow company prints 35/65 spine on the side of their "traditional"shafts, as to infer that "these arrows will fly good for anyone shooting a recurve bow from 35# to 65#" I have to giggle. :lol: Trad bows are set up to shoot an exact spine/weight/brace height/ combo. It either flies good or it don't. You can't just "swag" arrow spine into a 35/65 group and tell people they'll work for everyone. It just don't work like that. That's why most folks end up fiddle-farting around with all those ridiculous screw in weights and such, they can't get the arrow to fly good. Now, before you make the argument that carbon fibers are stiffer than wood fibers let me first remind you to test those carbon fibers against ash and birch. You wanna talk stiff!

Keep thinkin and plotin school boy. This old dog's got a few old tricks up his sleeve. 8)


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

This exactly why I shoot with a RIFLE! I don't have to worry about kinetic energy or any of that other scientific sh*t. I know that my .270 will put a deer or antelope flat on its arse at 250 yards, with a 130 gr bullet.

Not much to argue with there, except that I'm in the archery section of the discussion forum.....O well. Your guys' banter is very entertaining. I don't really care who is wrong, or who is right.....It's funny. I'm just glad I'm not the one bein' blasted......Kick his arse, Darin!


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > More of a bow's energy will be transferred to a carbon arrow because of stiffness. The wood arrow loses more energy due to heating/vibrating the surrounding air molecules because of how much it flexes in flight. You can think of it as only a portion of the 55 lbs of force you put into your bow is being transferred to a wood arrow. Where nearly ALL of the 55 lbs of force goes into a carbon arrow because of the stiffness properties.
> 
> 
> Again, your point is MOOT. My carbons and my woods have the same "flex" in flight because they both spine out at exactly the same. If one was stiffer than the other, they wouldn't fly the same. :shock: They have to be spined the SAME to fly the SAME out of the SAME bow. (can you wrap your big fat educated brain around that concept) Spine is the single most important part of good arrow flight in traditional bows. When a carbon arrow company prints 35/65 spine on the side of their "traditional"shafts, as to infer that "these arrows will fly good for anyone shooting a recurve bow from 35# to 65#" I have to giggle. :lol: Trad bows are set up to shoot an exact spine/weight/brace height/ combo. It either flies good or it don't. You can't just "swag" arrow spine into a 35/65 group and tell people they'll work for everyone. It just don't work like that. That's why most folks end up fiddle-farting around with all those ridiculous screw in weights and such, they can't get the arrow to fly good. Now, before you make the argument that carbon fibers are stiffer than wood fibers let me first remind you to test those carbon fibers against ash and birch. You wanna talk stiff!
> ...


Sometimes you can't teach an old dog new tricks. So if you can't beat him, you might as well join him.

The advancement of arrows from wood to aluminum to carbon to carbon wrapped aluminum was all a BIG FAT SCAM to get archers to waste money. Traditional here I come.


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## MEEN (Jan 27, 2009)

duckhunter1096 said:


> Your guys' banter is very entertaining. I don't really care who is wrong, or who is right.....It's funny. I'm just glad I'm not the one bein' blasted......Kick his arse, Darin!


Tex is just mad because I won the last argument we had over PM's. He never even responded to the last PM I sent him which as we all know is an admission of defeat. :wink:
Just kiddin darin... I only argue with you to get me through the work day.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

8) 

It's a beautiful thing son.


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## CP1 (Oct 1, 2007)

HHHHMMMMM- not to impressed, thought this thread was about crossbows!


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

CP1 said:


> HHHHMMMMM- not to impressed, thought this thread was about crossbows!


crossbows are gay. That's what I've learned by this tread.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Ya, the original poster came on here a while ago and said he'd learned enough... So, we hijacked it in another direction. Aint that how it works up in here? :twisted:

Oh, and cross-guns are *GAY*!


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

I'll bet zim has a bad ass cross bow.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> I'll bet zim has a **** bow.


NOPE! he tried playing the "cripple" card because one of his fingers is slightly shorter than the other. Thought that qualified him to get a special "cripple" permit for one but the hazing he took from bwhntr and I wasn't worth it. He now shoots a man bow. Still has training wheels, but it's a man bow. And, he's killed with it!


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> [quote="fixed blade":29kmz7v8]I'll bet zim has a **** bow.


NOPE! he tried playing the "cripple" card and getting a permit for one but the hazing he took from bwhntr and I wasn't worth it. He now shoots a man bow. Still has training wheels, but it's a man bow. And, he's killed with it![/quote:29kmz7v8]

Man the filters really screwed with my post. It should have said bad arse cross bow, you know because cross bows are gay! :mrgreen:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

That's why you always hit "preview" first to see how bad the filters screwed with your post.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

I've turned my filters off so I get to see all the good words and no more****. You should read jahans posts.  My favorite is when people actually type **** in . :lol:


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> I've turned my filters off so I get to see all the good words and no more****. You should read jahans posts.  My favorite is when people actually type **** in . :lol:


I prefer using symbols like a$$. 8)


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