# Elk Ammo



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

So, long story short, there is a rare chance I may have to swap from a high country buck hunt to a mid elevation elk hunt closer to home. If that is the case (really hoping not)....

Thoughts on a 165 grain custom Hornady BTSP in .308 for taking down an elk. It's what I have zeroed in for my buck hunt and $50+ in new ammo isn't friendly to my skimpy budget (ethics will over ride budget if I get that advice.). At 200 yards it has an impact of 1940 ft/lbs and a velocity of 2300 fps. SD is .248 and a BC of .435.

The SD is lower than normally recommended for Elk. I am not sure if it being spike matters enough to drop that recommendation to roughly .25 from .26-.27.

Thoughts? I am limited to 200 yard shots for my ability (very new) and ethics. I don't think that effects the philosophy and rational for SD though. The interlock BTSP seems to have a healthy balance with penetration, retention and expansion from what I have seen. 

Thx for sharing some wisdom to a newb. Hopefully life cooperates and I still can do my buck hunt.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It will be fine for a elk at that range.


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## cdbright (Aug 24, 2016)

i am shooting .308 and same ammo , well i just jumped up to 178gr but at 200 yards my grouping where very similar


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Stick it broadside through the vitals and it will work fine. A heck of alot of elk die each year to 270 caliber 130grn Corelokt bullets.


-DallanC


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

2 years ago my neighbor killed a huge elk with 1 shot from his.308 at close to 400 yards. The elk didn't go more than 10 feet after being hit. He was shooting 165 grain bullets but I don't know what brand


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Thx folks. As a novice I am still trying to figure alot of these minute details out.

Is it fair to conclude that sectional density is a larger factor at longer distances assuming you know the bullet has quality terminal ballistics liike the Interlock BTSP? Looking at its mushrooming it would seem to penetrate deeper than the non-custom Interlock.

BTSP
https://m.hornady.com/assets/images/products/bullets/mushrooms/btsp-mushroom.jpg

Standard Interlock
https://m.hornady.com/assets/images/products/bullets/mushrooms/sp-mushroom.jpg


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Custom Interlock BTSP (1st)
Interlock SP (2nd)


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## WEK (Dec 3, 2010)

That round in that caliber will be perfect. Punch a hole in the boiler room and that elk will be done done done. 

Good luck and post pics no matter what you end up with!


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

WEK said:


> That round in that caliber will be perfect. Punch a hole in the boiler room and that elk will be done done done.
> 
> Good luck and post pics no matter what you end up with!


A bad shot with a good bullet will not bring him down but a good shot with a decent bullet will. As Dallan said, tons of elk have been killed with a .270 and lesser bullet, my brother is a good case in point. Killed a huge cow a few years ago with his .270. I wouldn't worry about the bullet at all and instead I would key in on knowing were exactly to put the crosshairs regardless of what direction the shot is taken from.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Yeah, as a newb it's seems pretty obvious that for a while the biggest factor will be my ability and behavior not the rifle's or bullet's. I fully accepted it could be a years before I succeed given how much work it takes, from stalking to shooting skill. If I can successfully get a kill within five years (thus is my 2nd) I will be more than happy. If I can competently teach our child in the future I will be ecstatic. 

My photos may just be of beautiful places. Hopefully they will be of the experience that filled my freezer. 

Thx again.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

At 200 yards, you should be able to put the bullet where it needs to go. Just stay away from the front shoulder. If you hit that, you'll blow up the shoulder but may not get enough penetration to quickly kill the animal. You may still recover it, but a long, and sometimes frustrating, track job will be needed first.

Hunting is all about learning, so just go and have fun. You know your abilities, and if you stay within them, you'll be fine. Good luck and post pics!!


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

My family has been using the .270 to kill Deer and Elk for many, many, many years. I always shot 150gr Core-Lokt but my father and brother always used Super-X 130gr. SP. Only once I started reloading did I start using "High End" bullets. 

I'd imagine with a .308 165gr you'd have a larger margin for error than we ever did, and the fact that you know your SD and BC tells me you probably already know how to shoot them. Go kill something and share the stories!


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Classically speaking from the literature's point of view, the 200 grain bullet in any caliber that it is available in is the most appropriate elk caliber.

I have never seen 200 grain bullets in 270 caliber, but there was some famous/infamous author who promoted the use of 270 cal rifles for elk back in the 20th Century.

I myself use 200 grain bullets on all big game that I shoot -- pig, deer, elk, bear, etc. Every animal that I have ever shot has dropped in its tracks.

You will get all sorts of anecdotal responses on this issue.

Ultimately whatever you try, you will need to see how long it takes for an elk to die when you shoot it. And if one gets away from you after you have shot it, then that pretty much answers the question the hard way.

Good luck and good hunting.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

KineKilla said:


> My family has been using the .270 to kill Deer and Elk for many, many, many years. I always shot 150gr Core-Lokt but my father and brother always used Super-X 130gr. SP. Only once I started reloading did I start using "High End" bullets.
> 
> I'd imagine with a .308 165gr you'd have a larger margin for error than we ever did, and the fact that you know your SD and BC tells me you probably already know how to shoot them. Go kill something and share the stories!


I don't know of anyone who justifies elk hunting with a 308.

There are probably YouTube videos about it though.

I suppose this is probably no different than bowhunting elk though.

The animal is likely going to walk off and drop somewhere ... maybe.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Karl said:


> I don't know of anyone who justifies elk hunting with a 308.


Are you trying to argue its not enough gun for elk? Wow...

My boy has had zero trouble tipping over elk with his 7mm-08 w/ 140gr accubonds. Not one has gone more than 10 ft. 3 for 3 now. It has plenty of power. In fact look over past years threads here with the number of people shooting elk with 7mm08s.

7mm08 is just a 308 necked down to .284", I'm very impress with this cartridge. All a 280 would gain you over that is another 100fps.

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I haven't had a chance this year to link the 688 yard elk shot from a 243... by a girl. Might as well do it here. How far did this run again?






-DallanC


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

DallanC said:


> Are you trying to argue its not enough gun for elk? Wow...
> 
> My boy has had zero trouble tipping over elk with his 7mm-08 w/ 140gr accubonds. Not one has gone more than 10 ft. 3 for 3 now. It has plenty of power. In fact look over past years threads here with the number of people shooting elk with 7mm08s.
> 
> ...


Like I said ... 'lots of anecdotal arguments ...'.

What I said is I use 200 grain bullets.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

DallanC said:


> I haven't had a chance this year to link the 688 yard elk shot from a 243... by a girl. Might as well do it here. How far did this run again?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said, there are probably lots of YouTube videos on this.

The issue is of course the fallacies of anecdote and of populum.

Like I said, you will just need to try it yourself and see what your results are.

As long as you can live with yourself afterwards, that is what ethics are all about.

This is precisely why I went to 200 grain bullets in the first place for everything, mostly because of bears though, whether you are hunting them, or they are hunting you.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Looking at that video, it appears that the bullet hit somewhere high and back - spine shot? I sure wouldn't advocate an almost 700 yard shot with a .243, but if they had practiced, knew they were capable of the shot, and had ammo that would perform at that distance, I wouldn't tell them not to shoot. That's just pushing my own abilities/capabilities too far with a diminutive caliber such as the .243. I know there are elk that die every year to it, but the margin for error is much smaller than that of the larger calibers.

And in the end, animals don't care what caliber of bullet kills them.


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## stimmie78 (Dec 8, 2007)

I know of 5 antlerless elk that fell to 165 gr SST .308s last year.. So I think you're good to go...


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## Charina (Aug 16, 2011)

These types of hair-splitting threads always make me laugh a bit. 

And to think . . . some people hunt with bare trad bows with 1" cutting diameter broadhead. Perhaps that should be outlawed by the ethics police? 

I get that the technical aspect of maximizing performance for given constraints is fun. But that's all it is - is fun for our own entertainment. A 400 grain arrow at 250 fps will kill elk regularly if you are accurate. Almost any .308 slug at 2000 fps is well more than adequate to kill, if placed accurately. 

Put a 200 grain anything at any speed in the wrong place, and you still loose your target animal.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Karl said:


> I don't know of anyone who justifies elk hunting with a 308.
> 
> There are probably YouTube videos about it though.
> 
> ...


I know LOTS of people that don't justify Elk hunting at all! They are the same people that think their meat magically appears in the freezer aisle of the store all wrapped up tight in cellophane.

To say a .308 is not or is potentially not enough gun for Elk hunting is simply incorrect. 200gr projectiles or not, a poor shot is a poor shot and no amount of weight in your bullet is going to make it any better.

To the OP...go kill yourself the biggest baddest spike on the unit and send us the pics of how terrible your inferior .308 caliber 165gr. ammo performed. :boink:


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Anecdotes and arguments ad populum apply to Hoffa and Sasquatch. A .308 with a 165gr pill is good elk medicine as proven in the real world. Enjoy your hunt, aim straight and have confidence in your rifle.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Didn't mean to open a can of worms. The consensus seems to be that if I can get a shot to the vitals kill zone the aforementioned bullet should be more than plenty. That is the community wisdom I was after. The manufacturer agrees, as I chatted with them today. 

I have to lean on other people's wisdom until I have enough success to draw my own conclusions. Again, I appreciate the generosity.


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## bekins24 (Sep 22, 2015)

I'm gonna jump in and say I respect the hell out of you for knowing your limits of 200 yards and sticking to that. I know that I've been caught up before in the heat of the moment and taken shots that were probably a little outside my range. You seem like you are really conscious of this and I hope you have an awesome hunt.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

backcountry said:


> Didn't mean to open a can of worms.


Don't stress it. The "which cartridge and bullet weight for elk" debate has been going on for decades and will continue on after we're gone I'm sure. I've seen threads shut down over a simple question such as yours.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

When I finally do get around to doing an elk hunt it will either be with my .308 or my .30-06. I am leaning towards the .308 because it's sub MOA and way more accurate than I am. To top it off, it's actually a mil surp Ishapore 2A1 with a mil dot scope on it. At 35 yards it will put 3 bullets in the same hole if I do my part. I've been offered lots of $$$$ for it but it ain't fer sale fellers.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Karl said:


> I don't know of anyone who justifies elk hunting with a 308.
> 
> There are probably YouTube videos about it though.
> 
> ...


i shoot a 231,023 grain projectile (not bonded) in the winter but i wouldn't recommend it for elk. for that i use a .277 150gr projectile bonded. i don't shoot it beyond its capabilities and don't aim for the shoulder. it works for me. the smaller 6.5mm seems to be very adequate for the euros on moose.

while i do agree it's nice to anchor the game, it's often not necessary. the extra recoil and wasted meat of a poor shot isn't worth that to me. that's not to say that i can't make a poor shot with my 270 but i'm apt to do it more often with my 300wby. my 340wby doesn't leave the safe except for an occasional 3 shot group. even then, it's got a muzzle brake now.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Hornady Interlock BTSP are one of the better non premium bullets out there IMO. Using a 165 gr in a .308 for elk?? To me that would be a perfect choice, I wouldn't even think twice. 162 gr Hornady BTSP through my 7 Mag was my go to elk bullet for years, the only time I ever lost sleep after using that bullet/rifle combo was when I over indulged in elk steaks!


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## ski (Feb 5, 2015)

.308 with 165gr bullets at 200 yards or closer sounds like a lot of work packing meat out to me. Not that I'd know. I've killed over a dozen elk with a 30.06 and 165gr bullets and I'd have no problem doing it with my .308 either. Good luck hunting.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have often wondered just how I killed my first dozen or so elk shooting a 06 with 150 grain cup and core factory ammo. 

After reading a couple of the post here I should of been shooting 200+ grain bullets to even have a chance at killing one.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Kevin D said:


> the only time I ever lost sleep after using that bullet/rifle combo was when I over indulged in elk steaks!


Too much elk steak ... the stuff of a new hunter's dreams.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

This is my favorite thread.

.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Interesting perspective on the 200 grain projectile. Nice use of Latin as well. 

If a gun was put to my head and I had to bet my life on whether more elk in history have been killed with bullets + or - 200 grains, then I'm taking the under. That is not what we call an anecdote. We call that a crap ton of data over decades upon decades. 

That said, I'll kill my cow with 210 grains of copper next month.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

Kevin D said:


> Hornady Interlock BTSP are one of the better non premium bullets out there IMO. Using a 165 gr in a .308 for elk?? To me that would be a perfect choice, I wouldn't even think twice. 162 gr Hornady BTSP through my 7 Mag was my go to elk bullet for years, the only time I ever lost sleep after using that bullet/rifle combo was when I over indulged in elk steaks!


I shot my first elk (spike) with a 139 Hornady BTSP out of a 7mm Rem Mag. I've yet to try heavier loads with that gun but the 139's seem to shoot really well from my Savage 'Merican Classic.

This debate cracks me up. The people who say you can't kill with a 165 gr bullet from a .308 are probably the same people like my old boss who hunt deer with a 300 Ultra Mag and are surprised when they ruin a quarter of the meat.

My dad finally drew a LE elk tag a few years ago. He shot a huge bodied 5 point at just over 500 yards with a 165 gr bullet from a 30-06. It died.

As has been previously stated, get familiar with shooting your rifle and I can promise if you do your part that bullet with bring down an elk. You've got it figured out, don't let the keyboard ethics police steer you astray. :O--O:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> I have often wondered just how I killed my first dozen or so elk shooting a 06 with 150 grain cup and core factory ammo.
> 
> After reading a couple of the post here I should of been shooting 200+ grain bullets to even have a chance at killing one.


Was that before the internet?

.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Critter said:


> I have often wondered just how I killed my first dozen or so elk shooting a 06 with 150 grain cup and core factory ammo.
> 
> After reading a couple of the post here I should of been shooting 200+ grain bullets to even have a chance at killing one.


Correct.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Personally I like the bone-crushing power of Remington's 385 grain *Premiere Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded Sabot Slug.

*

The 385 grain *Premiere Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded Sabot Slug* can cut thru a 2-inch diameter lodgepole pine and still have enough power to flatten an elk:


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

You're so unethical Goob! At least give that elk a chance. :mrgreen:


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## cdbright (Aug 24, 2016)

nice flour jars


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

wyogoob said:


> Personally I like the bone-crushing power of Remington's 385 grain *Premiere Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded Sabot Slug.
> *


*

Dang, am I reading that right? 1900fps with a 385gr slug? My Muzzleloader elk load is only pushing 1640fps with a 300gr slug. I always thought Muzzleloaders had the edge on power vs shotgun and slugs but thats clearly not the case.

-DallanC*


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Dang, am I reading that right? 1900fps with a 385gr slug? My Muzzleloader elk load is only pushing 1640fps with a 300gr slug. I always thought Muzzleloaders had the edge on power vs shotgun and slugs but thats clearly not the case.
> 
> -DallanC


Yeah, there's a multitude of 12 ga slugs that will better the numbers on your ML. There might even be some 20 ga slugs that are better.

I practice at 50, 100, and 150. They're pretty accurate at 150 yards. Anything over 225 and they start to wobble.

I shot a whitetail at 186 yards. The bull was 103. The recoil is considerable.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

wyogoob said:


> The recoil is considerable.


Is there an understatement award? Ouch.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

wyogoob said:


> Yeah, there's a multitude of 12 ga slugs that will better the numbers on your ML. There might even be some 20 ga slugs that are better.
> 
> I practice at 50, 100, and 150. They're pretty accurate at 150 yards. Anything over 225 and they start to wobble.
> 
> I shot a whitetail at 186 yards. The bull was 103. The recoil is considerable.


A 12 gauge with magnum slugs will certainly kill anything in North America.

That's also why it makes a perfect grizzly gun too.

I would not wander into grizzly country (Alaska, Wyoming, or Canada) without one loaded with slugs.

I would not have thought of hunting elk with it, but it certainly would work well for it for shorter ranges of under 150 yards.

Caribou, moose, and musk ox would be no problem for it either at those ranges.

That's why it is often said that the 12 gauge shotgun is the best all around hunting gun in the world.

I have found that magnum slugs fired from my own 12 gauge exceeds my own pain threshold, so I would only shoot them if my life depended on it. My 300 RUM with 200 grain bullets is a lot more comfortable by comparison.

@wyogoob , you must have a lot tougher shoulder than most of the rest of us, certainly more than me.


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## Ut.juice (Aug 25, 2016)

I use Barnes x that are 165 grain from my 7mm. I have put down multiple cows the last few years most of them over 500 yards. Last year I took down a cow at about 100 and then another around 725. Both one shot. The 100 yard shot went through and through and she dropped right there. The 725 shot was a double lung and she ran almost a half mile before she died.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Ah...the good ol days hunting whitetails with a lightweight pump shotgun and slugs. No fancy rifle sights or rifle barrels. Just grab your shotgun with bead sight and let the fun begin. I remember when they came out with 3" slugs.....now that was something.

Back to the topic....

Guys from Sandy can only use 200gr bullets for elk.....check ;-)


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

gdog said:


> Ah...the good ol days hunting whitetails with a lightweight pump shotgun and slugs. No fancy rifle sights or rifle barrels. Just grab your shotgun with bead sight and let the fun begin. I remember when they came out with 3" slugs.....now that was something.
> 
> Back to the topic....
> 
> Guys from Sandy can only use 200gr bullets for elk.....check ;-)


Has nothing to do with Sandy.

The issue is underkill versus overkill.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Karl said:


> Has nothing to do with Sandy.
> 
> The issue is underkill versus overkill.


i need to go check on my underkilled elk, deer and antelope.......nope, still looking good in the freezer.;-)

i get what you're saying. for me, accuracy is everything. for what the caliber lacks i make up for in correct bullet selection for the application. i like to grab an appropriate tool for the job i'm doing. i don't use a BFH (sledge) to drive home and 10 penny nail. similarly, the 14oz Estwing doesn't drive my 12" spikes.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

"Classically speaking from the literature's point of view, the 200 grain bullet in any caliber that it is available in is the most appropriate elk caliber."

Well by golly if the literature says it then that settles it. Don't tell all those 90%+ of elk that have been felled to bullet sizes other than 200 grain though because then they won't start dying when hit in the vitals by any other size bullet. We'll just keep this our little secret ok?

Oh please do provide links to all this "literature" that says to use a 200 grain bullet, I need a good laugh today.

And the writer you disparaged over his advocacy of the .270, Jack O'Conner, probably forgot more than most hunters ever knew about guns, calibers and hunting.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

This issue gets beaten to death every time someone brings it up.

The fundamental basis of the dilemma is "what is the weakest load I can use ..." blah blah blah.

Never ceases to amaze me.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

Karl said:


> *This issue gets beaten to death every time someone brings it up.
> *
> The fundamental basis of the dilemma is "what is the weakest load I can use ..." blah blah blah.
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me.


Probably because there's always someone willing to argue a 50 BMG is the minimum you can hunt with in order to make a clean ethical kill. After all, the literature says so and the thousands upon thousands of elk that have been taken with lesser calibers is all anecdotal...


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Karl said:


> This issue gets beaten to death every time someone brings it up.
> 
> The fundamental basis of the dilemma is "what is the weakest load I can use ..." blah blah blah.
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me.


If you think a .308 with a 165 grain is a weak load you're delusional but hey whatever works for you DESPITE evidence to the contrary.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I love these types of threads!!!!

Umm ... I believe not too long ago, men running around in loincloths killed a few elk every year with a rock, attached to a stick, and flung from another stick with some sinew. 

I have confidence that your .308 will work just fine!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Karl said:


> This issue gets beaten to death every time someone brings it up.
> 
> The fundamental basis of the dilemma is "what is the weakest load I can use ..." blah blah blah.
> 
> Never ceases to amaze me.


I would ask you to show a little more respect for my question and thread as an OP. I am more than willing to here a thorough explanation for why my specific ammunition is not appropriate for spike elk. I started the thread to have a sincere conversation. Assuming my motives is neither rational or done in good faith.

I value an ethical kill. I don't want an animal to suffer anymore than it has to and definitely don't want to just wound one. I have stated my limitations as evidence of such. I won't be taking long shots. With the parameters listed here the vast majority of people believe the ballistics of the 165 grain .308 BTSP squarely fall into an ethical choice. That conclusion is backed up by an unhesistant confirmation from a manufacturer support staff. The #s just seem clear, except for the SD, which is contingent on all comparable bullet s being constructed the same. In this case, looking at the mushroom photos I provided, it seems clear the custom bullet I have chosen doesn't expand as much and (correct me if I am wrong) should in theory penetrate deeper. That seems to offset the lower SD at the limited ranges I am willing to execute. Throw that in with the fact that I am committed to only quartering away or broadside shots.

Feel free to explain my flawed conclusions but please do so with something more specific than underkill. That just doesn't educate me. And please be respectful enough to not assume such a generic goal of mine.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

backcountry said:


> So, long story short, there is a rare chance I may have to swap from a high country buck hunt to a mid elevation elk hunt closer to home. If that is the case (really hoping not)....
> 
> Thoughts on a 165 grain custom Hornady BTSP in .308 for taking down an elk. It's what I have zeroed in for my buck hunt and $50+ in new ammo isn't friendly to my skimpy budget (ethics will over ride budget if I get that advice.). At 200 yards it has an impact of 1940 ft/lbs and a velocity of 2300 fps. SD is .248 and a BC of .435.
> 
> ...





backcountry said:


> I would ask you to show a little more respect for my question and thread as an OP. I am more than willing to here a thorough explanation for why my specific ammunition is not appropriate for spike elk. I started the thread to have a sincere conversation. Assuming my motives is neither rational or done in good faith.
> 
> I value an ethical kill. I don't want an animal to suffer anymore than it has to and definitely don't want to just wound one. I have stated my limitations as evidence of such. I won't be taking long shots. With the parameters listed here the vast majority of people believe the ballistics of the 165 grain .308 BTSP squarely fall into an ethical choice. That conclusion is backed up by an unhesistant confirmation from a manufacturer support staff. The #s just seem clear, except for the SD, which is contingent on all comparable bullet s being constructed the same. In this case, looking at the mushroom photos I provided, it seems clear the custom bullet I have chosen doesn't expand as much and (correct me if I am wrong) should in theory penetrate deeper. That seems to offset the lower SD at the limited ranges I am willing to execute. Throw that in with the fact that I am committed to only quartering away or broadside shots.
> 
> Feel free to explain my flawed conclusions but please do so with something more specific than underkill. That just doesn't educate me. And please be respectful enough to not assume such a generic goal of mine.


You asked for thoughts.

I gave you mine.

I believe you are underpowered for elk.

In fact your load barely seems like enough for mule deer.

For elk most hunters load up their 30-06's with the heaviest bullet they can find. I recommended a 200 grain bullet:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...-ammo/30-06-springfield-ammo?d=121&c=96&s=916

What do you not understand? That I do not appreciate disrespect for the elk?


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## Charina (Aug 16, 2011)

Just ignore him backcountry. There will always be one or two in every crowd. Your posts have been spot on. A little over-analyzing, but completely respectable. Just see the poll for what many elk hunters here use.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Karl said:


> You asked for thoughts.
> 
> I gave you mine.
> 
> ...


In other words, his word is gospel despite the fact that over 90% of the elk killed each year are killed with bullets less than 200 grains and if you don't agree with him he can find something somewhere on the interweb that proves him right. There, I translated his comments for you OP. The fact that he dissed one of the most knowledgeable hunters of all time was enough to convince me that he knows little to nothing about which he is posting on. That coupled with the fact that he wanted to include a "one inch shotgun slug" in a survey. Of course he has yet to provide the web link on these so called one inch shotgun slugs which don't exist because it would be equivalent to a 4 gauge shotgun slug.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

What is not clear is nuance, context or detail to justify an answer so inconsistent with manufacturer and community knowledge. Even those pushing SD seem to consider 180 grain ammunition to be the .308 benchmark, not largest possible or 200 grain.

If the 165 grain is not enough for mule deer than I think I fully understand how deep your overkill simplification runs. All metrics and ballistics point to it being more than plenty for mule deer. 

Also, are you trying to imply that either I don't respect the wildlife I hunt or that only those who subscribe to your concept of overkill do?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Charina said:


> Just ignore him backcountry. There will always be one or two in every crowd. Your posts have been spot on. A little over-analyzing, but completely respectable. Just see the poll for what many elk hunters here use.


Thx. The over-analyzing is a fair and accurate conclusion. It's true beyond hunting and made worse by being a novice in the internet age (so much info to filter).

I am confident with the choice and my ability to use it within my limitations. In all honesty, I am more than likely just going to continue to learn to stalk given the realities of most high quality units that issue spike tags. Seeing big bulls up close is plenty amazing.

Happy hunting folks and appreciate the help and insight.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

backcountry said:


> I am confident with the choice and my ability to use it within my limitations.


In the end, that is all that really matters! I hope you have a wonderful elk hunt, kill an elk, and enjoy the mountains! Oh hey, don't forget to post some pictures of your hunt when you are done!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

CPAjeff said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> > I am confident with the choice and my ability to use it within my limitations.
> ...


Thx. Will share photos of my experience.

My wife, very much anti-gun before we married, has appreciated and supported my experiences and taking plenty of photos helps reinforce that transition. It's been a gift to see how she has changed given the chance to see the value of hunting, even if it's just being immersed in a setting with big game and no successful shot. She has the chance to understand my ethics and values like no one else.

She framed a simple photo from last year's hunt of aspen in full autumn colors that captures everything I love about hunting so far. The simple things.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

I try not to feed the beast, I really do, but I just can't pass this one up...



Karl said:


> You asked for thoughts.
> 
> I gave you mine.
> 
> ...


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

IBTL:-x

Im tired and going to bed, hopefully this becomes more user friendly by morning.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

Dunkem said:


> IBTL:-x


Might be best here. I'm leaving it alone anyway, I've already taken it further than I normally would.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Didn't know the can of worms I was opening for the community. 

Had to look up IBTL. Pretty funny as I am moderator on a different forum. Respect for any decisions made as I trust their intent.

Hopefully I'll get to ask more of these questions around a campfire someday. Or know the answers by the success of a full freezer.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

*I'm gettin' where I just hate outdoor forums*



backcountry said:


> Didn't know the can of worms I was opening for the community.
> 
> Had to look up IBTL. Pretty funny as I am moderator on a different forum. Respect for any decisions made as I trust their intent.
> 
> Hopefully I'll get to ask more of these questions around a campfire someday. Or know the answers by the success of a full freezer.


Ha, ha, I had to look up "IBTL" too.

.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

What is the right bullet for elk has been a hot button for over 50 years. Maybe over 100 years.

Some hunters don't care about the animals that they hunt nor feel anything for them.

Others do.

Some hunters study carefully their quarry and what it takes to bring them down.

Others do not.

The debate about the 270 caliber cartridge for elk is exhaustive. A 270 is a necked down 30-06. Since there is an exhaustive debate about the 270 for elk, anything smaller than the 270 should be an easy disqualification, for anybody who had read much about the issue.

But not everyone reads much.

And not everyone thinks logically.

And also not everyone is ethical.

And not everyone cares about the animals.

All the ad hom's and anecdotes don't change any of that.

Q.E.D.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

backcountry said:


> Didn't know the can of worms I was opening for the community.
> 
> Had to look up IBTL. Pretty funny as I am moderator on a different forum. Respect for any decisions made as I trust their intent.
> 
> Hopefully I'll get to ask more of these questions around a campfire someday. Or know the answers by the success of a full freezer.


 You asked a good question, to bad we have those who just want to argue.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Karl, with all due respect (which isn't much in this thread), the only thing you've provided here are ad hominem attacks and anecdotes. I have not seen a single justification in ballistics or the make up of elk that justifies your opinion. The only thing you keep saying is 200+ grains is needed, and anyone who doesn't agree is unethical. 

Are you simply trying to give examples of your Latin phrases that you googled?


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

For what its worth, I shoot 165 out of my 06' for elk. The gun isn't much of a fan of 180 for some reason. All the elk hanging on my walls agree that 165 is pretty deadly. As for 308, I had one, Savage 99c, the caliber was fine, the gun kicked so hard it hurt my unborn kids. I still say that if you walk in an elk camp this weekend you will get the big 4 in any camp, 270, 06', 7mm 300win. So the variants of them, the 308, 7mm-08, 25-06, etc, would perhaps be on the margins of "elk guns", but shouldn't be ruled out. my .02


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

hossblur said:


> For what its worth, I shoot 165 out of my 06' for elk. The gun isn't much of a fan of 180 for some reason. All the elk hanging on my walls agree that 165 is pretty deadly. As for 308, I had one, Savage 99c, the caliber was fine, the gun kicked so hard it hurt my unborn kids. I still say that if you walk in an elk camp this weekend you will get the big 4 in any camp, 270, 06', 7mm 300win. So the variants of them, the 308, 7mm-08, 25-06, etc, would perhaps be on the margins of "elk guns", but shouldn't be ruled out. my .02


Do you shoot a Winchester Model 70 by chance? We've got two of them and they both like 165 the best. It shoots 150's okay and 180's pretty well but the 165's seem to the be the sweet spot.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Well according to the unscientific poll on this site, 90% +/- of the successful elk hunters use ammo of less than 200 grains in weight. I bet those 90% of elk sure would have liked to have known that before they gave up the ghost to ammo less than 200 grains that they shouldn't be dying that way.  

Personally I will take Mr. Jack O'Connor's lifetime of EXTENSIVE hunting experience and shooting experience over some wannabee keyboard warrior from Sandy any day.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

OK, use guys that want real proof, let me quote some anecdotal proof from one of America's most famous shooters/hunters, Elmer Keith..."I once saw a guy shoot a jack Rabbit with a 270 three times and the rabbit just kept on grazin". That's good enough for me...You tell'em Karl


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

So what we have learned here today, is that you need a 200 grain bullet to kill an elk. Maybe I'll break out Grandpa's 38 S&W. It ought to do the job. 
Elk must be tougher than elephants, or W.D.M. Bell wouldn't have been able to kill 1011 of them with his 6.5x57 and 7x57 Mausers back in the day. and they only shot 140 and 175 grain bullets respectively. 
The internet is a wonderful place to tell everyone they are less ethical, less educated, and generally stupider than you if they disagree with what you might have read elsewhere on the web. Lets all grow up, go hunting, and not kill anything so we don't have to eat gonads. 
and that jackrabbit must have been bigger than Elmer's ego.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Loke said:


> So what we have learned here today, is that you need a 200 grain bullet to kill an elk. Maybe I'll break out Grandpa's 38 S&W. It ought to do the job.
> Elk must be tougher than elephants, or W.D.M. Bell wouldn't have been able to kill 1011 of them with his 6.5x57 and 7x57 Mausers back in the day. and they only shot 140 and 175 grain bullets respectively.
> The internet is a wonderful place to tell everyone they are less ethical, less educated, and generally stupider than you if they disagree with what you might have read elsewhere on the web. Lets all grow up, go hunting, and not kill anything so we don't have to eat gonads.
> and that jackrabbit must have been bigger than Elmer's ego.


200 was my own recommendation.

185 is probably enough.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

BPturkeys said:


> OK, use guys that want real proof, let me quote some anecdotal proof from one of America's most famous shooters/hunters, Elmer Keith..."I once saw a guy shoot a jack Rabbit with a 270 three times and the rabbit just kept on grazin". That's good enough for me...You tell'em Karl


Anything anecdotal is not "proof". It is anecdotal.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Karl, are you calling Elmer Keith, one of the greatest big bore enthusiast of all time a liar, a spreader of rumors, a vendor of fibs? If Elmer Keith said it, it's proof and I believe it!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If Elmer Kieth or Jack O'Connor said it then it is gospel. Even if they said it before Al Gore invented the internet.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Karl said:


> 200 was my own recommendation.
> 
> 185 is probably enough.


Sweet. Now I can use my 45 acp with lead semi-wadcutters.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

First time I was going elk hunting I talked to a respected gunsmith about what grain to use in my 06. I was thinking 220's. He said why don't you just walk up and hit them in the head with a sledge hammer? You don't need anything more than 180's.
That was back in the 70's
Every elk I've killed with a rifle was killed by a single shot with 165 Nosler partitions. Any hole in both lungs is going to kill an elk every time.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Loke said:


> So what we have learned here today, is that you need a 200 grain bullet to kill an elk. Maybe I'll break out Grandpa's 38 S&W. It ought to do the job.
> Elk must be tougher than elephants, or W.D.M. Bell wouldn't have been able to kill 1011 of them with his 6.5x57 and 7x57 Mausers back in the day. and they only shot 140 and 175 grain bullets respectively.
> The internet is a wonderful place to tell everyone they are less ethical, less educated, and generally stupider than you if they disagree with what you might have read elsewhere on the web. Lets all grow up, go hunting, and not kill anything so we don't have to eat gonads.
> and that jackrabbit must have been bigger than Elmer's ego.


I was waiting for someone to bring this up...LOL! The 7x57 was used early and often in Africa and has killed quite a few elephants. I'm trying to get my brother to sell me his but he loves it so much that may not happen. The model he has is not made anymore and would be a perfect Utah deer/elk gun.


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## Natural Born Killer (Oct 29, 2015)

I am a little late on this subject here is what my youngest daughter when she was (age 9-12 has taken with a remington custom shop model 7, 6 mm. 90 grain Hornadays All most all with ONE shot 6x5 bull elk, 13x14 Red stag New Zealand, Two Bull Kudu, one in Zimbabwe, the other in Tanzania, Zebra, Giraffe , 5x4 mule deer, Whitetail and a lot of plains game,Impala ect. 
I have also killed Two Cape Buffalo with a 300 win , 180 grain Bearclaw, the others have been with a 470 nitro, 416 rem, 375 H&H , Also Numerous BIG BULL ELK have all gone down with 180 Grain Bearclaws Four AFRICAN LIONS, Two LEOPARDS ( this is what our family's main go to hunting round is) My wife and I have killed quite a few med size animals in different areas of African, with HOLD YOUR BREATH A 22 MAGNUM, ......
THEY ALL FELL OVER JUST AS DEAD, THEY DIDN'T NOTICE A DIFFERENCE,
Mountain Lion 22 Long Rifle pistol BULL ELEPHANT 470 NITRO- DIK DIK 22 long Rifle,
IF YOU CAN KILL MORE THAN ONE CAPE BUFFALO WITH A 300 WIN, 180 GRAIN BEARCLAWS, (IF YOU DRAW BLOOD, THERE GOES YOUR TAG, AND YOU STILL PAY, THE TROPY FEE) 
THEN THEY ARE MORE THAN FITTING FOR AN ELKS DEMIZE,
My 9 yearold Granddaughter shot A bull Kudu, Bull Sable, Impala, and Common Springbok, all with a 308, 150 grainers this past July all one shot kills, the also fell over just as dead ......

Shoot what you are comfortable with and use a premium Bullet and the will tip over...
,


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Was hoping to be in the field by now setting up and scouting elk but migraines (auras and shakey hands aren't a hunter's friend, plus suffering in a tarp tent doesn't sound fun) have changed those plans....so...

What are the benefits of premium bullets at ranges less than 200 yards? Having not shot any I rely on internet beta. Seems like their construction leads to better weight retention and deeper penetration, correct?

I ask as the ammo I am using this year, and sparked this now infamous thread, isn't considered premium but seems to have some of those listed qualities at the distance, velocity and impact force I am likely to see in the field. Just curious why I should step up to premium in the future with a guess that it becomes more critical with longer range shots.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

backcountry said:


> What are the benefits of premium bullets at ranges less than 200 yards? Having not shot any I rely on internet beta. Seems like their construction leads to better weight retention and deeper penetration, correct?


In my personal experience, sub 200 yards is where you need the premium stronger construction, projectiles are at their fastest the shorter the distance, and alot of bullets cant withstand those extreme energies as well as premium bullets.

My record for extreme bullet performance was a elk at 30 yards... with my 7STW, shooting 140gr Xbullets at 3600fps... it failed to open. Pinhole in, pinhole out, very little damage to internal organs. But that pinhole went through the heart shocking it enough it stopped. I was lucky. Gave away all my Barnes bullets since then.

-DallanC


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

Most of the "premium" bullets are either bonded lead core or monolithc copper alloy. So at shorter ranges where velocity is really high, and sometimes higher then the upper threshold of recommended velocities, they'll hold together better instead of coming apart before they penetrate.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

DallanC said:


> My record for extreme bullet performance was a elk at 30 yards... with my 7STW, shooting 140gr Xbullets at 3600fps... it failed to open. Pinhole in, pinhole out, very little damage to internal organs. But that pinhole went through the heart shocking it enough it stopped. I was lucky. Gave away all my Barnes bullets since then.
> 
> -DallanC


That's crazy! I can't imagine one not opening up at that velocity. Although, before I reloaded, I tried out the Winchester XP3 line of ammo. I was shooting soaked newspaper with 3/4" plywood in front to test the terminal performance. Almost all of them opened up correctly, but one had the polymer tip broke off but no expansion at all. I started reloading shortly after that and now shoot accubonds.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

willfish4food said:


> I started reloading shortly after that and now shoot accubonds.


Me too.

-DallanC


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> What are the benefits of premium bullets at ranges less than 200 yards? Having not shot any I rely on internet beta. Seems like their construction leads to better weight retention and deeper penetration, correct?
> 
> I ask as the ammo I am using this year, and sparked this now infamous thread, isn't considered premium but seems to have some of those listed qualities at the distance, velocity and impact force I am likely to see in the field. Just curious why I should step up to premium in the future with a guess that it becomes more critical with longer range shots.


What cartridge are you using?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Interesting. So for a non-premium bullet that is within the recommended velocities at short distances it should penetrate and expand just fine, correct?
The 165 grain Interlock mushroom looks alot like the SST's as it doesn't expand as much as the Interbond or flat Interlocks. It seems the boat tail design affects the density of the jacket but that is likely unfair to conclude from such small photos.

Hornady recommends muzzle velocities of 2000-3300. This custom factory load only comes in at 2700 fps at muzzle and drops to 2400 by 100 yards. I assume they load it that way to have proper terminal ballistics? Seems like its in the sweet spot.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Loke said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> > What are the benefits of premium bullets at ranges less than 200 yards? Having not shot any I rely on internet beta. Seems like their construction leads to better weight retention and deeper penetration, correct?
> ...


.308 with the Hornady Custom 165 grain BTSP


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

backcountry said:


> Was hoping to be in the field by now setting up and scouting elk but migraines (auras and shakey hands aren't a hunter's friend, plus suffering in a tarp tent doesn't sound fun) have changed those plans....so...
> 
> What are the benefits of premium bullets at ranges less than 200 yards? Having not shot any I rely on internet beta. Seems like their construction leads to better weight retention and deeper penetration, correct?
> 
> I ask as the ammo I am using this year, and sparked this now infamous thread, isn't considered premium but seems to have some of those listed qualities at the distance, velocity and impact force I am likely to see in the field. Just curious why I should step up to premium in the future with a guess that it becomes more critical with longer range shots.


The snows have begun to fall here, and high up it is sticking. Right now it is cold but the forecast is for warmer temps in the 70's in the valley bottoms here. The snow will probably stick up high though.

And the jet stream has a big "trough" in it arching below Utah into Arizona, so this bodes colder weather.

You are going to need a real tent with good insulation -- an air mattress or cot under you, and a cold weather sleeping bag over you. Otherwise you will shiver all night and won't get much sleep.

When buck fever kicks in, you are going to have a rapidly beating heart and shaky hands too. So I would not count on pinpoint precision either. So that myth is also out the window now too.

Hydrostatic shot is going to be your best friend.

So a 185 grain bullet pushed by a 30-06 or heavier rifle is going to be your best bet.

You can also go with shotgun slugs as one of the mod's has pointed out, and keep your shots within 150 yards to play it safe.

Good luck, again.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I didn't read this whole thread, so maybe this has been covered. 

I shoot 150gr Nosler Partitions out of my 280. I think the 308 comp would be a 165 Partition. The design of the partition allows it to shed some of the weight on the front, while retaining weight on the back to drive the bullet for deep penetration. I like the bullet to transfer its energy to the animal. Some bullets pass through too easily for my tastes, which allows for less energy transfer.

This is just my opinion, but not all "Premium" bullets are good for all uses. For example, the Berger is designed for lower energy-- ie- longer range shots-- and can come apart far too easily for my tastes at close range. 

Your bullet will work, unless you are trying to drive it through a leg bone. If it was me, I'd pick up a $40 box of partitions and see how they shoot. Less than a tank of gas and you can use them for 10 seasons......


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Packout said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, so maybe this has been covered.
> 
> I shoot 150gr Nosler Partitions out of my 280. I think the 308 comp would be a 165 Partition. The design of the partition allows it to shed some of the weight on the front, while retaining weight on the back to drive the bullet for deep penetration. I like the bullet to transfer its energy to the animal. Some bullets pass through too easily for my tastes, which allows for less energy transfer.
> 
> ...


A 280 would be an good choice in a rifle for elk, since it like the 270 is essentially a 30-06 necked down, and the literature is replete with reports of 270's working as well as a 30-06 does and even firing flatter.

There is 280 ammo in 175 grain bullets available and no good reason not to go all the up to the 175 in this case. Why would you not? Especially for someone with shaky hands.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Karl, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your intent. But it's difficult when you consistently assume others aren't educated or experienced enough to form decisions different than your own. 

If I am honest, you fully lost me with your last comment that presumed I can't choose my own camping gear. I didn't seek advice in that category because it's one I am extremely confident and comfortable with. Let me give you some context: I thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail at 19, followed by a thru-hike of the Colorado Trail the next year. I worked 2 years as a guide with over 360 nights in a tarp during those times with winter temperatures down to -20F before wind chill. All totaled, since the age of 18, I have more than 2000 bag nights from Alaska, much of the western US, most of the eastern seaboard, traversing the Uintas and even in the Caribbean. I can competently get myself far into and out of the backcountry safely and comfortably. I can do that with a tarp tent, a 1 lb sleeping bag, a 14 oz sleeping pad. And the most important piece of gear is the combination of my skill and problem solving. 

I own a single bug game rifle and it's a .308. It's plenty to do the job on the animals I desire to hunt over the next decade. Plenty of research went into that decision and I am confident in its ability. And my own within the stated limits. I spent 5 days backpack hunting last general elk season. Saw no spike but git my scope on a healthy trophy bull within 75 yards. I was able to hold it steady within the vitals kill zone and feel confident I would be able to keep a stable shot. If that changes I won't risk injuring an animal over "elk fever". I will act within my abilities and ethics even if that means a week of camping with elk and no shot. 

Plain and simple.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

backcountry said:


> Karl, I want to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your intent. But it's difficult when you consistently assume others aren't educated or experienced enough to form decisions different than your own.
> 
> If I am honest, you fully lost me with your last comment that presumed I can't choose my own camping gear. I didn't week advice in that category because it's one I am extremely confident and comfortable with. Let me give you some context: I thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail at 19, followed by a thru-hike of the Colorado Trail the next year. I worked 2 years as a guide with over 360 nights in a tarp during those times with winter temperatures down to -20F before wind chill. All totaled, since the age of 18, I have more than 2000 bag nights from Alaska, much of the western US, most of the eastern seaboard, traversing the Uintas and even in the Caribbean. I can competently get myself far into and out of the backcountry safely and comfortably. I can do that with a tarp tent, a 1 lb sleeping bag, a 14 oz sleeping pad. And the most important piece of gear is the combination of my skill and problem solving.
> 
> ...


I'm not worried about you being educated or uneducated. Your ego in all this does not affect me at all.

I'm worried about you freezing in a lean-to or bivy at night in the snow.

I'm worried about you packing an underpowered rifle for the quarry you are hunting.

I'm worried about a lot of anecdotal responses that seem really inappropriate to me.

And I am not the kind of person who lies or flatters others.

You asked for opinions and I gave you mine.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Karl said:


> Especially for someone with shaky hands.


You repeatedly keep mentioning "shaky hands" and "buck fever". You've never hunted with any of us here, so you can only make poor assumptions as to our skills, ability's. Are you sure YOU aren't the one with shaky hands, needing the extra energy to make up for poor hits?

I know for a fact Packout has killed way more big mature animals than most people here... there's no way he has the track record he has by making shaky poor shots.

You probably should choose someone else to pick on while trying to make your case.

-DallanC


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

DallanC said:


> You repeatedly keep mentioning "shaky hands" and "buck fever". You've never hunted with any of us here, so you can only make poor assumptions as to our skills, ability's. Are you sure YOU aren't the one with shaky hands, needing the extra energy to make up for poor hits?
> 
> I know for a fact Packout has killed way more big mature animals than most people here... there's no way he has the track record he has by making shaky poor shots.
> 
> ...


Is there a way to put someone on ignore so you don't have to read their ridiculously ignorant and arrogant posts? It's time to put Karl on ignore.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Is there an ignore feature on this forum? 

The shaky hands is a misplaced reference to my previous statement about my current migraine. Karl either failed to read that I stayed home because of that condition or intentionally chose to misrepresent my comment. Trying my hardest to read his interjections with generosity. Heck, I spent a couple hours last night reading up (for the umpteenth time) on the subject since my pain pills cause insomnia.

And I appreciate his concern for my safety but it's misplaced. 

So it goes.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Forgive Karl. His google app is broken so he's waiting for his next Latin term to appeal to your senses. 

I think their is a fallacy for that...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

backcountry said:


> Is there an ignore feature on this forum?
> 
> .


You can add anyone to your ignore list which is located in your user CP


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Packout said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, so maybe this has been covered.
> 
> I shoot 150gr Nosler Partitions out of my 280. I think the 308 comp would be a 165 Partition. The design of the partition allows it to shed some of the weight on the front, while retaining weight on the back to drive the bullet for deep penetration. I like the bullet to transfer its energy to the animal. Some bullets pass through too easily for my tastes, which allows for less energy transfer.
> 
> ...


Thx for the thoughtful and detailed response. Was hoping to experiment with premium ammo next year.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Critter said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> > Is there an ignore feature on this forum?
> ...


Thx. Tried to tease out something helpful but I have no patience for it anymore after he took my shaky hands comment way out of context. It's a shame as I was more than willing to learn a different perspective.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The only problem that I see with ignoring someone by putting them on the list is that you don't get to see the banter between Mr Ignored and the other party. 

I have found the if I just don't reply to their post and feed the monster that it works better.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Critter said:


> The only problem that I see with ignoring someone by putting them on the list is that you don't get to see the banter between Mr Ignored and the other party.
> 
> I have found the if I just don't reply to their post and feed the monster that it works better.


Yeah, the ignore feature can cause some issues with continuity (i moderate a different forum). Your approach is nuanced but it requires self control ;^)

I normally have enough patience to just ignore comments but playing it safe for now. I can too easily fall into the trap of engaging people who aren't acting in good faith. His choice to use my migraines so inaccurately was enough for me.

Best of luck folks.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

A 308 should be perfectly adequate with any decent bullet. The Remington Cor-Loct is a classic, as is the Hornady Interlock. You don't "need" a super premium bullet unless your impact velocities exceed 3000 FPS. I know this because it is in some literature I read sometime, or somewhere on the internet. I have anecdotal proof somewhere but I seem to have misplaced it.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Loke said:


> I know this because it is in some literature I read sometime, or somewhere on the internet. I have anecdotal proof somewhere but I seem to have misplaced it.


Now that right there was funny I don't care who you are.:grin::grin::grin:


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Let's not lose sight of the original issue with a bunch of ad hom's.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

11 pages?!? I think it's time to;


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## bekins24 (Sep 22, 2015)

o-||


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The sad part is that I'll be leaving in about a hour for the Utah elk hunt and I'll have to sign off until after the deer hunt and I'll miss all this fine discussion.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Have a good couple hunts, Critter. 

Looks like my hunt timeframe has moved back a bit. Grateful the elk hunt is so long and I have flexibility in my schedule.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

Critter said:


> The sad part is that I'll be leaving in about a hour for the Utah elk hunt and I'll have to sign off until after the deer hunt and I'll miss all this fine discussion.


I'll sum it up for you. One person thinks you're unethical because you're not using a 50 BMG with 650 grain pills to make up for your shaking buck fever hands and questionable marksmanship in spite of not knowing you or having any knowledge of your abilities.

Everyone else trusts your ability to keep yourself within your own shooting abilities while hunting, and wishes you the best of luck in your hunts.

Not that I really blame that one person for acting that way. He did mention that he came from a state where everyone seems to know your business and what you should be doing better than you do. So naturally, being the good Samaritan he is, he must condescendingly, correct you.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Critter said:


> The sad part is that I'll be leaving in about a hour for the Utah elk hunt and I'll have to sign off until after the deer hunt and I'll miss all this fine discussion.


 Gawd Critter take me with you!!! Then I won't have to read this dribble-O,-


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Dunkem said:


> Gawd Critter take me with you!!! Then I won't have to read this dribble-O,-


Me too.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Karl said:


> Some hunters don't care about the animals that they hunt nor feel anything for them.
> 
> Others do.
> 
> ...


I mean this in the most constructive way possible but these types of comments are what is creating the conflict with some here. I have no problems with someone giving an opinion. In fact I love to be challenged on my own opinion based on facts and healthy discussion.

But these types of comments make it seem as if though you are saying if someone disagrees with you they don't care, don't study, don't read, don't think logically, are unethical, and have no factual data to back up their own opinion.

Is that what you are really trying to say Karl? Because that's how it comes across.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Karl should really meet Lonetree sometime. I'll bring the popcorn.


-DallanC


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Karl should really meet Lonetree sometime. I'll bring the popcorn.
> 
> -DallanC


DING DING DING.....You win for best post of the thread!!!!!


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Now that we have this figured out........ I think.........

The bigger question is after you have your elk down, what do you need to bring it out with? 

Some will take their micro Toy.....ota pickup and think that's plenty.... but to be ethical you really need to bring it off the mountain with a F350 Crew Cab...... and don't think that you can even get by with one of those Obama motors outfits. 

If you don't have the F350 you shouldn't even think about going on the mountain. Just wouldn't be ethical.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I used a backhoe this year... is that better or worse than the F350? Butcher asked how in the hell I got it out whole :mrgreen:. Slipped it off the hayforks onto the tailgate, could not budge it! Had to pull it in the rest of the way with a come-a-long so I could close the tailgate.

-DallanC


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

F350? Those are for sissies and little girls. Maybe big enough for an antelope or small whitetails. :shock:


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