# Heard a rumor



## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

I heard today, from a friend who heard from a "reliable source", the reason behind the unlimited cow tags on the Wasatch unit, is they are going to turn the area north of 40 into a limited entry unit for deer within the next 5 years. Do I believe it? I don't not believe it. It would kinda suck if they did. I've heard all of the open bull elk rumors, this is the first deer rumor.


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## koltraynor (Jun 16, 2014)

I don't think so. Wouldn't be surprised if they opened part of it back up. But what do I know. I think Berry Blaster might have a fit.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

I heard it was going LE for deer. mckoltraynor.


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## koltraynor (Jun 16, 2014)

I know a gay who lives in heber who would be a lil' upset. Poor lil' cooter' . 
I apologize Mr Bug for my reading comprehension skills.


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

how interesting! Sure does make sense with them going to 30 sub units...but it sure would not be cool! 

What is the thought about general elk???


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

koltraynor said:


> I know a gay who lives in heber who would be a lil' upset. Poor lil' cooter' .
> I apologize Mr Bug for my reading comprehension skills.


Twasnt your comprehension skills, twas my writing/typing/thinking skills, I edited it.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

tallbuck said:


> how interesting! Sure does make sense with them going to 30 sub units...but it sure would not be cool!
> 
> What is the thought about general elk???


there has been some talk/ rumors of turnip it to general, I doubt any of them are founded though.


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## bow_dude (Aug 20, 2009)

The original claim for making it archery only was because of the danger of hunters who didn't pay attention to where they were lobbing bullets. (Shooting towards the city). Then there is the danger of shooting a bicyclist or hiker who aren't wise enough to wear orange when out doing their thing during hunting season. But, if it is safe to let 12 year olds carry a hunting rifle, then, using the same wisdom, I suppose it is safe to open the Wasatch front to rifles. Isn't there a minimum distance you must be to fire a center fire weapon from building structures?


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## kzkammo (Jul 15, 2013)

Can you go into more detail about the general bull rumors? I saw something about N. cache but I couldn't find anything on the RAC meeting minutes.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

LE?? It's already that way anyways, it's a 3 point draw unit and headed for 6 before too long.

Personally I don't care how it's managed, just that's it's done well. Turn it into an any bull unit, turn it into the next San Juan, or leave it the same. But in all those things be clear about the direction it's headed and manage it well in doing so. 

The gripe most guys have is that they don't understand what or why the division is doing the things it's doing, or what they are doing doesn't line up with what they have become accustomed to in years past. 

Until it hits a rac tho it's all smoke and mirrors...


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here are the FACTS for the Wasatch this year , 2014.......( no rumors here )

750+ Mature bull elk permits

Unlimited archery elk permits

Unlimitd cow control permits for those with antlered deer and elk tags 

October will prove to be very interesting on the Wasatch unit !!!!!!!!

I been pointing out this trended on this forum for three years now,
Unfortunatly, looks like the worst is still to come.....IMHO.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

yeah....terrible things going on over on the wasatch unit...we sure as shootin' don't want any elk bein' shot on that there unit! I can't believe anyone is actually allowed to get a tag and hunt the Wasatch....awful!


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Let's get a couple of things straight here, there are only 702 LE elk tags (not counting cons permits). At an average of 61% success that means roughly 425 bulls will be harvested on LE hunts. Personally given the amount of bulls it see each year and understanding the age objectives and management direction this is not disconcerting to me. 

There are 11,900 antlered deer permits on the unit, a handful of moose permits, and the elk tags. This means that there is a potential antlerless control permit pool of about 15-18,000 after GS spike is factored in. Not counting the spike or cow archery hunters which we can't track.

Personally, I think less then 30% of that pool will actually buy one. Meaning at best there will be about 4-5000 cow tags again. The difference being no December January meat 'shoots'. Many of those tags will go unfilled due to lack of opportunity, who's seriously going to focus on killing a cow with a LE bull tag?? Or a buck deer? Guys will shoot one if it runs across the road but will likely focus on their primary tag till it's filled.

Just my Opinion but I think the control permits were a compromise from the DNR. They had their hands tied legally, they had to 'manage' for objective. This was their way of potentially having less cows harvested while still covering their end.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I agree with BB. I have a CC tag and will shoot one if it walks in front of me while I'm hunting deer. Personally I think the moose situation is much more dire than the elk.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Let's get a couple of things straight here, there are only 702 LE elk tags (not counting cons permits). .


PLUS Expo permits and tags going to CWMU''s---750+ ;-).....

15-18,000 cow elk permits on the Wasatch in October,,,:!::!::!:.........

And WtoU thinks things are just fine......Gezzzz.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Please understand, I'm not saying things are right, from my experience the cows on this unit are still suffering. But the control permits I feel are a step towards eliminating excess antlerless harvest

In speaking with the local powers that be they sold, if my memory serves me right, 3000 CC permits for the CC/avintaquin side last year and harvested around 1000 head. 3000 out of a potential pool between 8-10000 people. 

Now this conversation was last February so I'm stretching but if my memory is right that's what he said. This paints a much brighter picture than what the surface shows


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Yep, no elk on the wasatch. None. I didn't see 80 cows nor did I bugle in 7 bulls this morning grouse hunting. And this definitely wasn't in a really accessible area. Nope.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the thing, Rumor or not, The trend on the Wasatch is heading toward general elk fast!

Some of you may like this, I do not!----I saw what this unit looked like in the 70s/80s for elk..
IT SUCKED!!!!

Watching the Wasatch unit, reduced from what was a GREAT elk unit turnd trash,,,,,
ALSO, really SUCK's.....:!:.....JMHO.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

So... save my elk points?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> So... save my elk points?


Nope, after this year ??,,, I'd just use them on a differant unit......


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

This^^^ don't waste any points on the wasatch . Put in for San Juan or manti.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

What can I say goofy, I think with no specific scouting I went up this morning and was within bow range of a 360" 6pt and a pair of 330" bulls within ½mile of a major road spells out a pretty [email protected] good elk unit still


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^ Yep still is !!! ^^^^^

Keep trending the way its going ? 

You'll figure it out in a couple years......


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Brownie points for Johnny


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Here is my take on this---

Goofy at times has used hyperbole to illustrate the point that he doesn't like the management plan on the Wasatch unit. The use of that hyperbole at times has been his biggest enemy in getting some vocal opponents on his side because the utter death and destruction of all elk is just not what they are observing. But if you read enough of his posts, and disregard some of his emotional responses trying to defend his position, he's made some solid points. 

I think berryblaster has picked up on that this year, and has chosen to take the much more diplomatic approach (not nearly as doom and gloom as a year ago...) to suggest the practices don't appear to be sustainable. That is a much easier statement to get on board with than many of the comments in the past that went to extremes. 

So where do I see it? I agree that the unlimited control tags are a bad idea. That practice really isn't sustainable. And although I don't see total doom and gloom, after a few years of that you really might have irreparable damage to possibly numbers, but definitely patterns of behavior. And they continue to give out more and more big bull tags, and the reason why is the asinine age objectives on places like the SJ, Pahvant, etc that continue to lose tags every year. The DWR can't possibly cut elk tags across the state. So when they cut the SJ tags once again next year because the 375 inch bulls people are shooting just aren't old enough, they'll add even more tags to the Wasatch. It has become the whipping boy of the state. 

Lots of elk still there. I hope to be able to find a big one in a few weeks for my brother's muzzy tag dumb enough to let us get fairly close. But the practices should make us at least ask questions where this unit is going.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Last time I saw the Wasatch bulls were managed by age objectives as well.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I guess I have to ask....Who said they weren't?


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

What the HAY! Don't people get the story. If you keep letting this unit get screwed over> all the Elk your seeing now could become a thing of the past. Plain as an ass on A Goat.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

All I can say it's it seems like a group of guys have been crying chicken little about the wasatch for 3-4 years now and IMO there are even more elk running around on that unit than when the doom Sayers started reading the tea leaves. 3-4 years is enough time to move through a significant age class base, and yet, there are still lots of bulls in every age group as well as lots of cows. To me, that says the unit is doing just fine.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Johnny, stop using logic and real world Intel. I haven't seen an elk on the wasatch in at least 2 days.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I think you're forgetting the secret of elk hunting: open your eyes!;-)


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Obviously, You couple of guys never hunted the south half of the Wasatch unit between
1995 and 2009---------------Fantastic years. Quite different from today.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

So you're saying goofy that my spot (FYI, it's in the southern portion) was better than 80+ head of elk including a365" bull at 40 yards and a pair of 330"ers with zero scouting aside from turkey hunting in the spring within ½mile of a major road in a2hr morning? Really?! Forgive me if I find that hard to believe. And the thing is, I've had pretty consistent experiences like this on the wasatch for the past 4 years. It is like you want people to believe it was a 400" bull behind every tree or something 5 years ago.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Yep, like usual. Nobody has ever hunted the wasatch but Goofy.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Keep digg'in u two.....You have a great hole started ....:!:.........


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Goofy, don't get me wrong, I think you're a pretty good guy who obviously cares about hunting. I just think you have chicken little complex on this issue. Last year you were going on and on about the indiscriminate cow slaughter and how nobody was seeing cows anymore.... And that just wasn't the case. Give me some hard proof to counter my position and I'm man enough to admit I'm wrong. It just isn't going to happen without more convincing evidence than what I have experienced first hand.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I don't expect Anything else from a guide who gets paid to put clients on big bulls. Are there 380" bulls everywhere? No. Are there some bruisers? Of course. Some areas around avintaquin are struggling. But not a complete decimation of all the elk. I spend 95% of my time on the wasatch, strawberry, white river, currant creek, Timp. I just don't see it. I see elk every time I'm out. I've also hunted it since the mid 80's. It's done nothing but grow.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

I don't think I've ever said that there are no elk, however over the last 5 years I've watch and documented a decline in overall cow numbers. The nurseries in and around the strawberry valley have on average been cut in at least half and in some cases 75%.

It's no struggle to go find elk, and quite a few of them at that. The question is are there really 9000 head and are the amount of cow permits justified? What I've seen and the decline in success rates suggest no.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

Could it be possible the numbers in the late 90's early 00's were so good they were unhealthy? 

What are teh thoughts about the Wasatch becoming LE for deer? I know everything is basically LE already, at least by definition. If they move it over to the LE pool for the draw, instead of the GS draw, how will that affect the other units? How could they possibly cut that many tags and redistribute them to the other units? I know its a rumor but not one that is outside the realm of possibility. Based on the quality of deer possible on that unit and coupled with the fact DP with everyone who matters in his pocket, it might happen.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ummmm, I never said there were NO elk either !!!!!!!!!

Just pointing out an observation some off us that live on the unit are seeiing.

And yes , I agree with berrys numbers.

Most of the nursies areas are down 50-75% easly....

And NO bugchucker, I've heard zero talk of the Wasatch going to LE deer......


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Bugchucker
Its already happend but its still called a general unit. They did it first by splitting everything into sub units. They then took another piece of the pie towards le quality when they upped the buck doe ratios from10-15 bucks per 100 does to 18-20. I believe tbe bookcliffs is basicall a 25 buck doe unit. So right now its not much different than the bookcliffs and no I dont think they will label it an le unit.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

LOL some things never change. Trying to convince some that there is or isn't will never change here.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

pheaz said:


> LOL some things never change. Trying to convince some that there is or isn't will never change here.


But if everyone doesn't see things my way then I'm wrong! I can't handle being wrong...might mean I lose an inch or two of my stature as a man


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Some of us don't care if we're wrong. Some of us have to be the "I told you so" guy and the "I saw this coming for years guy" to make us feel more manly.


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