# And All The Monkeys Say.....DO IT LIKE COLORADO DOES!



## klbzdad

Yeah....one of my fellow MDF friends sent me this today and I just now read it. Looks like if Colorado had RAC's like we did here in Utah they'd here a whole bunch of, "Why can't we do it like they do in Utah?" 
:O>>:

http://www.denverpost.com/outdoors/ci_2 ... -mule-deer

Why do I have a feeling the Southern RAC on bucks and bulls is going to last until 3 am next year? *-HELP!-*


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## swbuckmaster

I had my first trip to Colorado last year and all i saw was predators. In 14 days of scouting i saw more predators then muledeer. This included 1 cougar, and up to 3-12 coyotes a day. In the evening they would yip in every ravine. Ya they have a predator problem!


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## klbzdad

Same on the Utah/Colorado boarder......The Big Sexy Voice Guy on the WB can confirm that on the LaSal Mountains.....plenty of cougar and bear then in the lower oak brush you have coyotes. Maybe we should swap management plans:/


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## goofy elk

Very solid article with GOOD info....

klbz,,,I don't understand why you have issues with it?

Its exactly what Colorado should do..


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## klbzdad

Goofy, 

I don't really have an issue with it at all. It is a good article and I'm suprised a newpaper actually has some truth in it! I'm poking fun at those who go to the RAC's and claim other states do it better when really each state is already trying to do what is best for itself and then sharing information through the Mule Deer Working Group, of which both Utah and Colorado belong. But most people at the RAC's won't acknowledge that....they'd rather just say their perspective F&G or DWR sucks. I'm all for whatever helps......naked ladies behind every tree? You betcha!


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## wyoming2utah

Yup, Iron Bear, SWbuckmaster and others, I am going to say it: compensatory predation!

"Certainly predators kill deer... We've done experimental studies where we manipulate coyote density and deer density, and if you kill coyotes, you certainly lower the predation rate on mule deer fawns. But the malnutrition rate and starvation rate goes up, and at the end of winter, you still end up with the number of deer that the habitat can support."

Great article...!


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## GaryFish

I like that their picture of mule deer, 




is mule deer. *()* *()* *()*


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## bullsnot

The article is good one in my opinion as it seems to address the real dilemma we find ourselves in with respect to what effect predator reduction will do for us here in Utah. The predator/habitat relationship is an important factor in all of this. 

It has been said by biologists that once habitat is improved predators can be a limiting factor to population growth and temporary predator reduction can be effective BUT the habitat has to be there to support the extra mouths BEFORE you start reducing predators/predation and expect population growth to actually happen. Otherwise the extra mouths can actually to more long term damage to the habitat than if you still had the predators.

I think of mule deer recovery to be like the battle fronts in WWII. You have to attack several fronts in the right manner and in the right order to ultimately win the war.


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## bigbr

Once again the argument being presented and surmised is that Western wildlife officials are justified in doing *NOTHING*.! :evil:

The North American Mule Deer species has been eulogized to the same fate as the Dodo bird&#8230;

Please take off your hats and take a knee.....

Big


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## TEX-O-BOB

Sounds like Fred Eichler needs to get off his arss and start killing more predators over there instead of traveling to Florida and shooting gators and hogs... :O•-:


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## Finnegan

I'm really trying to understand why it is that those who claim to be so concerned about wildlife absolutely refuse to acknowledge the obvious and common sense truth. Continued human population growth, (and all that must go with it), just isn't compatible with increases in game populations. The more that gets taken by the dominant species, the less there is for all others.

Conservation isn't really a partisan issue. But our dysfunctional partisan rhetoric and short-sighted ideologies prevent us from acting even in our own best interests, let alone the best interests of wildlife.

We don't have to look very hard to see examples. In 2008, Ernie Perkins of the Wildlife Board, (a true conservationist and a good man), tried to bring the issues of future energy development to the mule deer committee's attention and couldn't even get a discussion going. But the Pinedale Anticline demonstrates why conservationists should be concerned. http://wyofile.com/2011/05/pristine-to-polluted/

So one would think that the recent compromise agreement for natural gas extraction in Uintah county would be viewed as a good thing, enabling gas extraction while significantly reducing the surface impact of drilling operations. Without such an agreement, Nine Mile Canyon would likely face the same fate as the Upper Green River Basin.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7001 ... oject.html


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## stillhunterman

+100 Finn!


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## klbzdad

I read the WyoFile story and it was pretty good! I hope the standards they agreed on in the nine mile deal are adhered to! Great post Finn!

Who'd have thought that the biggest issue, or predator, facing mule deer just might possibly be.....NAW, COULDN'T BE, I DARE NOT SAY IT............


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## Lonetree

MAN


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## Lonetree

Finn

You're right, Conservation is not really a partisan issue. It is just a word some people use to describe what they claim to be doing, or claim to be about. This goes for those on the left, as well as those on the right. Couple this with the fact that there are people and groups out there, more than willing to hijack conservation, to achieve alterior goals. And you have a recipe for further disaster. Those that are focused on hunter control, be it four legged or otherwise, rather than focusing on CONSERVATION, will get out, what they put in. And seeing how they wont put anything into conservation, they will get nothing out. Option WTF? is predator control, just like the new coyote program is hunter control, and vise versa. Niether of these things have anything to do with conservation. And do nothing for Mule deer. Does anyone know how many sagebrush seeds you can buy for $50? 

Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, Mike, and anyone else we want to be like, have done the studies, killing predators will not increase deer populations. Habitat restoration will, at least more so. Conservation is based on real, sound science, not ideology. But then again it is much easier to feed on peoples fears and ignorance, by blowing the ideological dog whistle. Or is it sheep whistle?


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## Lonetree

bigbr said:


> Once again the argument being presented and surmised is that Western wildlife officials are justified in doing *NOTHING*.! :evil:
> 
> The North American Mule Deer species has been eulogized to the same fate as the Dodo bird&#8230;
> 
> Please take off your hats and take a knee.....
> 
> Big


The saying goes, "If it aint broke, dont fix it". But if it is broke, you have to know whats wrong with it first. Thats the science part of conservation. Do I need to bring my pickup truck analogy back? I have a better one actually, it involves poking, prodding, and interpreting mumbling, moaning, and other sounds........I'm a stud.


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## wyogoob

All the gas and oil ******** in Wyoming, including myself, are working on it.

See: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=36589&p=435123#p435123

A few more 5-year and 10-years studies will really help. And in the mean time people suffer, big game herds decline.

I have worked the gas and oil fields of CO, WY, UT, NE, and ND all my life and have some comments to offer. I may take my moderator hat off and do so.

Less government, fewer regulations, more jobs, cheaper energy prices.....be careful what you ask for.

Drill, Baby, Drill.


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## Lonetree

Goob

So to be a "conservationist" I would need to be against things like that? I dont know, what if they call me a communist, or worst, an enviromentalist, or bunny buggar. Let me check and see what the cool kids think about it, and I'll get back to you about this. 

I mean, I start buying into all that enviro crazy talk, and next thing you know I'll be giving up Copenhagen, trading in my boots for minimalist footwear, and driving a Subaru. 

Cant we just blame it on the big bad wolf? And maybe bad management by an inept DWR. I mean thats got to be the problem right?


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## klbzdad

OMG! Lonetree wrote it out loud! And it appears he's figured out how the powers of the dark side force use into Teva sandles which are really mind and purchase control devices! I hear DP owns huge amounts of stock in Teva! But I could just be making that up, or am I?


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## Iron Bear

Man bashing again are we girls? :roll: o-||


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## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> Goob
> 
> So to be a "conservationist" I would need to be against things like that? I dont know, what if they call me a communist, or worst, an enviromentalist, or bunny buggar. Let me check and see what the cool kids think about it, and I'll get back to you about this.
> 
> I mean, I start buying into all that enviro crazy talk, and next thing you know I'll be giving up Copenhagen, trading in my boots for minimalist footwear, and driving a Subaru.
> 
> Cant we just blame it on the big bad wolf? And maybe bad management by an inept DWR. I mean thats got to be the problem right?


Driving a Subaru? Do we allow that here? 

We're gonna drill another 3500 gas wells over here in the sage brush steppe where the deer and the antelope play. Each well gets a road, a pipeline and a power line. Darnit, I wish they would directional drill more; drill a dozen or more wells off one pad like they have done offshore for decades, minimizing the impact on game animals and most of all the impact on the land, land that heals ever so slowly. Ah, who cares. They say the new gas wells will create another 14-trillion jobs, lessen the USA's dependence on foreign oil and heat a billion homes (with hot tubs)

Then there's the Book Cliffs. My friends and I are sitting on our D9 dozers on the other of side of the Green River. We have a little red tape to clear away first and then we will be there.


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## Lonetree

Iron Bear said:


> Man bashing again are we girls? :roll: o-||


Yep, some of us give a **** about reality, and exit our echo chambers on occasion. Either you are for the wildlife, or you are against it, its obvious where allot of selfish folks line up around here.

"You do your needed work out of love, the love that dares not speak its name, the love of spareness, beauty, open space, clear skies, and flowing streams, grizzly bear and mountain lion, wolf pack and twelve-pack, of wilderness and wanderlust and primal human freedom and so forth."--Abbey


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## Lonetree

"Then there's the Book Cliffs. My friends and I are sitting on our D9 dozers on the other of side of the Green River. We have a little red tape to clear away first and then we will be there."

Better check your crank cases ;-)


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## stillhunterman

Dang LT, you kinda remind me of Zorro, showing up on the forum only when the church bell rings ;-)

Always appreciate your perspective and insight. Good luck on this years hunting draws, where ever they might be!


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## ridgetop

Stillhunter, you've got to be one of the most accepting and open minded people that I know and I respect you for that. But I am very disapointed about how liberal the UWC is becoming. Some of the more outspoken members are becoming more of a cancer to the organization than anything else. I have little respect for someone who cares more about an animal or plants rights over a persons livelihood.


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## bullsnot

Finnegan said:


> I'm really trying to understand why it is that those who claim to be so concerned about wildlife absolutely refuse to acknowledge the obvious and common sense truth. Continued human population growth, (and all that must go with it), just isn't compatible with increases in game populations. The more that gets taken by the dominant species, the less there is for all others.


Finn you are right....to a point. We could never have game numbers at the same level we did decades ago when the human footprint was much smaller in the West. However much of the remaining useable, existing mule deer range has changed to the point it isn't real condusive to growing a lot of deer and I do think that is something we can change. Thinning old sage brush steppes and thinning P&J can have very positive results. The problem right now is scale and human politics have made it tougher to do cheap. There is alot of work to be done and it will take years to pay off but if we keep at it I do believe it will pay off to some degree even if that only means maintain current numbers as human encroachment continues.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

The fact that a well fed herd is a healthy herd is not a liberal idea. It's the TRUTH! Unfettered human consumption in the name of profit is in nobody's best interest. We cannot replace that which is gone forever. Balancing consumerism with environmentalism is tricky, but worth the effort. We could all benefit by reading Leupold.


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## Lonetree

stillhunterman said:


> Dang LT, you kinda remind me of Zorro, showing up on the forum only when the church bell rings ;-)
> 
> Always appreciate your perspective and insight. Good luck on this years hunting draws, where ever they might be!


Zorro! :mrgreen: I got dinged for a buck eighty, so things are looking good this year. Just have to wait to see what unit.


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## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> Stillhunter, you've got to be one of the most accepting and open minded people that I know and I respect you for that. But I am very disapointed about how liberal the UWC is becoming. Some of the more outspoken members are becoming more of a cancer to the organization than anything else. I have little respect for someone who cares more about an animal or plants rights over a persons livelihood.


My families living is dependant on wilderness, clear trout streams, pristine views, and uncrowded public backcountry that is hard to reach. Not only here, but on every continent on Earth. My money is where my mouth is. Like I said before, either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists. The terrorists that are hell bent on destroying what wildlife and wild places we have left, along with my childrens future hunting and fishing heritage. Dont talk to me about "livelihoods".

Hunting and fishing are central to humanity, they are where we came from, and part of what got us here. With out wild places, and the wildlife(including those that can kill us) that inhabit those places, we cease to exist in the same manner as our ancestors have for millenia. We slowly but surly climb down from the shoulders, that give us the vantage point of where we came from, and and how we got here. Traded for what? a false sense of "security", a comfortable place on the couch?, A green field, for a cold steel rail.... whoops! I think I just channeled Pink Floyd.

Conservation is neither left nor right, it is pragmatically and practically centrist, which happens to be why it is so easily exploited. Its greatest strength, is also its weakness. A little action, and anarchy are needed to clear away such leftist and right wing notions, and get to the heart of the matter. If one could ever clear away such doubts, and get wildlife groups, enviromental groups, hunting groups, wilderness orgs, etc. all working on common conservation goals, then we would really have something. Why doesn't that happen? Oh yeah, unfounded idi(ot)-ology! on both sides. I'm not sure which is worse, iliterate hillbilly ********, or tofurkey munching, posie sniffing bunny buggars. I do know that neither of them end up being good for conservation.

I am a member of the United Wildlife Cooperative, and Backcountry Hunters & Anglers. I dont view either group as left or right, but as CONSERVATION organizations.


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## Lonetree

BTW, you can buy ~4,000,000 sage brush seeds for $50.


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## ridgetop

Lonetree said:


> ridgetop said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stillhunter, you've got to be one of the most accepting and open minded people that I know and I respect you for that. But I am very disapointed about how liberal the UWC is becoming. Some of the more outspoken members are becoming more of a cancer to the organization than anything else. I have little respect for someone who cares more about an animal or plants rights over a persons livelihood.
> 
> 
> 
> My families living is dependant on wilderness, clear trout streams, pristine views, and uncrowded public backcountry that is hard to reach. Not only here, but on every continent on Earth. My money is where my mouth is. Like I said before, either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists. The terrorists that are hell bent on destroying what wildlife and wild places we have left, along with my childrens future hunting and fishing heritage. Dont talk to me about "livelihoods".
> 
> Hunting and fishing are central to humanity, they are where we came from, and part of what got us here. With out wild places, and the wildlife(including those that can kill us) that inhabit those places, we cease to exist in the same manner as our ancestors have for millenia. We slowly but surly climb down from the shoulders, that give us the vantage point of where we came from, and and how we got here. Traded for what? a false sense of "security", a comfortable place on the couch?, A green field, for a cold steel rail.... whoops! I think I just channeled Pink Floyd.
> 
> Conservation is neither left nor right, it is pragmatically and practically centrist, which happens to be why it is so easily exploited. Its greatest strength, is also its weakness. A little action, and anarchy are needed to clear away such leftist and right wing notions, and get to the heart of the matter. If one could ever clear away such doubts, and get wildlife groups, enviromental groups, hunting groups, wilderness orgs, etc. all working on common conservation goals, then we would really have something. Why doesn't that happen? Oh yeah, unfounded idi(ot)-ology! on both sides. I'm not sure which is worse, iliterate hillbilly ********, or tofurkey munching, posie sniffing bunny buggars. I do know that neither of them end up being good for conservation.
> 
> I am a member of the United Wildlife Cooperative, and Backcountry Hunters & Anglers. I dont view either group as left or right, but as CONSERVATION organizations.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's got to be biggest load of crap I've read on here in a while.
You say, I'm a terrorist, if I'm not with your way of thinking. Really? This is coming from someone who quotes a terrorist in his signature line?


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## Lonetree

Thanks for making my points so clear. There are others here that would call Roosevelt and Leupold leftists, communists, and terrorists too. The simple fact of the matter is that Edward Abbey, Theodore Roosevelt, Aldo Leupold, John Audobon, Henry David Thoreau, and the like contributed greatly to, if not defined, conservation. Many of them did so while defying the left and right labels of their time also. You are obviously more worried about what is left or right, or what you have been told is left or right, rather than being concerned with the real issue at hand. I get it, its easier, and the cool kids in your clique like you better that way. Thank, again.


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## wyoming2utah

Lonetree said:


> "You do your needed work out of love, the love that dares not speak its name, the love of spareness, beauty, open space, clear skies, and flowing streams, grizzly bear and mountain lion, wolf pack and twelve-pack, of wilderness and wanderlust and primal human freedom and so forth."--Abbey





Lonetree said:


> Better check your crank cases ;-)


Wow...Edward Abbey! I love it...are you talking about starting up a new Monkey Wrench Gang? Personally, i could use a little more Desert Solitaire!


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## Lonetree

Desert Solitaire is a great read, and thought by many to have kicked off and reinvigorated the modern conservation movement. I read the gang when I was 10, and revisited it again at age 16. I am revisiting allot of Abbey's works right now. 

For absolutely ridiculous laughs, read "Hayduke Lives". The scene with the young deer hunter doing hand to hand combat with a dozer, really captures the essence of the kind of action many long for today. It is a great metaphor, that simplifies the kind of complex issues currently facing conservation. 

"are you talking about starting up a new Monkey Wrench Gang?" Are you inviting me on a river rafting trip ;-)


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## wyoming2utah

I didn't enjoy Hayduke Lives nearly as much as The Monkey Wrench Gang. I haven't read either, though, in quite a long time. I may just have to break them back out! As far as I am concerned, The Monkey Wrench Gang and Desert Solitaire are right up there with The Sand County Almanac by Leupold! Anyone interested in conservation, should read them!


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## wyogoob

Northwest of the Book Cliffs along the Green River:


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## Lonetree

"As far as I am concerned, The Monkey Wrench Gang and Desert Solitaire are right up there with The Sand County Almanac by Leupold! Anyone interested in conservation, should read them!" 

I can't second that scentiment enough, well said!


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## Lonetree

Goob

That kinda looks like cancer spreading, it is very sobering.

Talking with the FS in Cody last year about Bighorn sheep in the Wind Rivers, those very gas wells were implicated as being contibuting factors to Bighorn die offs in the Winds. I do not think that most sportsmen understand the bigger picture, or the consequences, of not understanding it. We need to escelate and quicken the debate within, while simultaneously getting to work. I hear you, believe me, I hear you.


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## wyogoob

Lonetree said:


> Goob
> 
> That kinda looks like cancer spreading, it is very sobering.
> 
> Talking with the FS in Cody last year about Bighorn sheep in the Wind Rivers, those very gas wells were implicated as being contibuting factors to Bighorn die offs in the Winds. I do not think that most sportsmen understand the bigger picture, or the consequences, of not understanding it. We need to escelate and quicken the debate within, while simultaneously getting to work. I hear you, believe me, I hear you.


Go to Google Earth and use their time lapse feature. Look at the Uintah Basin now, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, then 20 years ago. Or watch the Anticline in Pinedale Wyoming grow from 2002 thru 2009. That's sobering.

I first started working in the Uintah Basin in 1979. I've watched it grow.


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## klbzdad

Uhmmmm....that time lapse thing. That's pretty crazy stuff. 

Ridge, I don't think the liberal element of UWC is a bad addition an neither does newer members being outspoken. A cooperative is a collective of views and should represent a broad view of everyone. That is what those "other" so called conservation groups were intended to be when they were first formed but instead they have turned the corner and morphed into something representative of more an elite variety of sportsman. I belong to most but the one that starts with an "S" and ends with a "W" and by far the most respectable one that I give more time and my dollars to will be UWC because they work harder to pull all of the sportsmen together instead of driving them apart.


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## proutdoors

Lonetree said:


> Thanks for making my points so clear. There are others here that would call Roosevelt and Leupold leftists, communists, and terrorists too. The simple fact of the matter is that Edward Abbey, Theodore Roosevelt, Aldo Leupold, John Audobon, Henry David Thoreau, and the like contributed greatly to, if not defined, conservation. Many of them did so while defying the left and right labels of their time also. You are obviously more worried about what is left or right, or what you have been told is left or right, rather than being concerned with the real issue at hand. I get it, its easier, and the cool kids in your clique like you better that way. Thank, again.


I won't go so far to call Teddy Roosevelt a commie, but I WILL call him a progressive.......as he himself did! I don't see things as left vs right, liberal vs conservative.. I see things as individualism vs collectivism. I will ALWAYS side with the individual over the collective.....just as the Founders did, as well as other lovers of LIBERTY! I am all for common sense being applied, but I do NOT see much being used by ANY of the major players. The whole Agenda 21 is REAL, and it is the single biggest threat Americans face for losing Liberty and the possibility of prosperity. Me, I follow libertarian views, and the most articulate article I have found that expresses closest to my views is from the "self-described "Christian-conservative-libertarian-environmentalist-lunatic" Joel Salatin". Here is a link to the article: http://reason.com/archives/2012/05/05/t ... -interview
I hope folks on here will take the time to read it, as I think it will help people see things from a different paradigm. I also disagree with you on what the 'real issue(s)' is. I assert 99.9999999% of the problem is government involvement, while you seem to think the government is the solution to the ills.


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## Flyfishn247

Yep PRO, John Stossel is the man. I tend to side with libertarians on most things.


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## Lonetree

Yeah Pro, you hit it head on. :roll: Like I said in an earlier post, it must be the big bad wolf and an inept DWR. :roll: Maybe you could explain to the rest of us uneducated folks how it is that the "goverment" is hindering conservation efforts? In an earlier post some folks were complaining about goverments not doing anything, so I'll asume that you are the antithesis to that. But then again that would put you in my camp, and that cant be right. Yet I was arguing against the goverment's policy, so yeah we must be on the same page.....err uh.... maybe not?


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## Lonetree

Great read Pro, anti drug control, nothing to do with the topic at hand, and Monsanto is a liberal corporation in bed with the goverment, that was great. The guy, an anti GMO/Monsanto farmer, does not even understand what a GMO is, how it works, or why they were created. Lets go with his suggestion, and let the "market place of ideas" go to work on this.


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## klbzdad

Play nice now.....we all know there is a line to be drawn where we all must be accountable to what happens to our environment. If we start a car to go somewhere, shame on us! If we buy cloths not made in America, shame on us. If we have a huge "carbon footprint" that can't be erased, shame on us. Man for a long time has no doubt been insatiable for our need for our "NEEDS" which turn out later to be more wants than necessary for survival. 

Its unfortunate that government has to be forced to recognize this and then put in place reclamation to correct that which MAN has done. But it does provide jobs, it does help the economy, it does satisfy those misconstrued want's that the ignorant see's as a dire need for life so why not govern it at this point? I see this as governments actual roll as we move forward. 

Credit cards were hit this weekend! There should still be uncomfortable man love going on here! Don't kill the vibe for hell's sake!


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## Lonetree

"Credit cards were hit this weekend! There should still be uncomfortable man love going on here! Don't kill the vibe for hell's sake!"

Can you imagine how bad this could be if I had not drawn?


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## ridgetop

My credit card never got hit. It must be that Liberal Lonetree's fault! :O•-:


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## Lonetree

ridgetop said:


> My credit card never got hit. It must be that Liberal Lonetree's fault! :O•-:


One can hope.


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## klbzdad

Lonetree said:


> ridgetop said:
> 
> 
> 
> My credit card never got hit. It must be that Liberal Lonetree's fault! :O•-:
> 
> 
> 
> One can hope.
Click to expand...

This "man love" would be uncomfortable....Lone and Ridge! 
-*|*-


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## ridgetop

klbzdad said:


> Lonetree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ridgetop said:
> 
> 
> 
> My credit card never got hit. It must be that Liberal Lonetree's fault! :O•-:
> 
> 
> 
> One can hope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This "man love" would be uncomfortable....Lone and Ridge!
> -*|*-
Click to expand...

Believe me, there's no love involved here. :roll:


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## wyogoob

Uh...who's John Stossel?


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## Lonetree

wyogoob said:


> Uh...who's John Stossel?


I like you more and more, every day


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## proutdoors

Lonetree said:


> Yeah Pro, you hit it head on. :roll: Like I said in an earlier post, it must be the big bad wolf and an inept DWR. :roll: Maybe you could explain to the rest of us uneducated folks how it is that the "goverment" is hindering conservation efforts? In an earlier post some folks were complaining about goverments not doing anything, so I'll asume that you are the antithesis to that. But then again that would put you in my camp, and that cant be right. Yet I was arguing against the goverment's policy, so yeah we must be on the same page.....err uh.... maybe not?


 I am curious why you have such contempt for my views. I did NOT attack you, nor your views, so why are you so defensive? I also, did NOT assert, nor imply, that you or anyone else is 'uneducated'. As for how the government is hindering conservation efforts: It is sad that I should have to point out a few of the MANY examples. Right here near my place, there are thousand upon thousands of DEAD trees. There is far more dead tress because of the government than if the private sector had been allowed to take action. Beetles were allowed to keep spreading, killing thousand of acres of forest, along with displacing thousands of critters. I have yet to see wildlife in dead forests. Then, there is the infamous spotted owl mess, hopefully this is self-explanatory.... The EPA, and the ESA have caused more harm to wildlife than ALL actions by individuals combined! The number of foolish/isane policies in place that hurt conservation is immense. FWIW, you'll be hard pressed to find an instance of me blaming the DWR or the demise of wildlife...rather I blame it on collective government as a whole....


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## proutdoors

Lonetree said:


> Great read Pro, anti drug control, nothing to do with the topic at hand, and Monsanto is a liberal corporation in bed with the goverment, that was great. The guy, an anti GMO/Monsanto farmer, does not even understand what a GMO is, how it works, or why they were created. Lets go with his suggestion, and let the "market place of ideas" go to work on this.


Since 'the guy' doesn't understand what a GMO is, how about you explain it to me......since genetically MODIFIED organisms seems pretty clear cut to me. And, maybe you intentionally dismissed the point of the article, which is that the government ALWAYS makes things worse whenever it steps outside of its VERY LIMITED and SPECIFIC roles! And guess what, 'protecting' the environment/wildlife is NOT among the VERY LIMITED and SPECIFIC roles of the federal government. I am all or the "market place of ideas", but a key Principle this nation was founded upon was the liberty to do as one wishes....up until your actions directly affect another individual in a negative way. And, GMO's affect others in a MAJOR way!! If you disagree, then it is YOU that does not understand what GMO's are, how they work, and the effects they have on 'natural' ecosystems!

Now, I hope you respond in a mature way instead of attacks. 8) Also, I am curious what you have against John Stossel? Just wondering..............


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## klbzdad

Pro has a point there. Its why so many don't like liberal views today. Liberal policy used to be so extreme that they would get laughed at because it had no place in wildlife or wilderness management. They got tired of being laughed at and instead donned the sheep's clothing and got educated and learned to speak the speak. Once in positions of importance they put their extreme policies in place and gifted us the damned beetle and spotted owl only to create the best tactic of all, government diversion which also grows government bureaucracy. The BLM and Forest service is a direct result of these policies. I sure miss the Lacy Act. It worked and gave states control within their boarders. The ESA......proverbial toilet paper. I feel sorry you have to look at that around your place, Pro. You should be gawking and beautiful conifer!

John Stossel is kind of a crazy dude....the kind that makes sense. Scary:/

And before Lonetree and Pro get in a rubbing match....both of you have great points!


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## Lonetree

Pro

My contempt for you, stems from the fact that people like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. I get your libertarian shctick, and your droning about the individual, I am about as individual as they come. I bring up conservation, you have a knee jerk reaction and start moaning about the gubment and other unrelated subjects. Thats the script, I get it, get a thought of your own. I come over here for very singular reasons: rattle cages, provoke thought, and upset people, it is what I do, it is part of my sales pitch in the market place of ideas. And frankly your wrists just fit the straps of my whipping post well. Thanks! Without you and others like you, my points could not be made nearly as well.

As for GMOs, I've already spelled that out here, go look it up.


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## Lonetree

klbzdad

You are missing the point entirely, it has nothing to do with left or right. I'm a radical eclectic centrist BTW. I attended a Grateful Dead show, and a Chris Ledoux concert all in one years time. I build guns, I hunt, I fish, I am a proud enviromentalist raised on wild game, and the beef from my grandparents farm. As recently as 4 years ago I grew my own alfalfa, and had a small 60 acre farm. I grew up raising pheasants, quail, chickens, rabbits, doves, pigeons, goats, etc. And we ate them all, I used to sport a pony tail with the cowboy hat I wore back then. And none of you have ever seen me lead a Sierra Club educational trip, and chastise the **** out of them for not knowing their heads from their asses, like allot of folks around here. It is this left/right-right BS that prevents conservation from taking root with sportsmen in any meaningful way. And the FS did not bring us the spotted owl and the pine beetle, thats a nice distractionary bit of tripe though. 

Speaking of spotted owls and old growth forests, can anyone tell me what the most endangered species in the lower 48 is?


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## Lonetree

BTW, my last attempt at contacting the Sierra Club, went unanswered. They dont want to talk about conservation either. Its funny, they think I'm a rightwing gun packing whacko.


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## klbzdad

Oh, I get it. The root of this thread had nothing to do with left or right BS. It HAD to do with the arguement that most have that Colorado does something different than Utah with regard to how mule deer are managed. Every time we go to a RAC, all we hear is, "IF DWR WOULD DO IT LIKE COLORADO DID AND ACTUALLY COUNTED DEER.....BLAH BLAH BLAH." And somehow we are on another subject altogether. I get it.....

The Sierra Club...In high school I designed a t-shirt of a tent that said sierra club on it with a set of four wheeler tracks going over it and some dude on a quad riding away with a Utah flag flying proudly above it on the way to delicate arch. Maybe I'm just tired of the argument, but yes, the forest service allowed the pine beetle to get out of hand. Its documented that fire controlled the beetle's natural cycle and also allowed new conifer stands to grow. Because of liberal policies that limited logging on Cedar Mountain, for example, we have a tinder box up there. That is poor management and poor policy that also hurt a once beautiful monument. 

I had a ferret once btw. I loved that **** thing but my ex wife kept him and then lied to me about where he ended up when I asked for him. never had the heart to replace him.


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## proutdoors

Lonetree said:


> Pro
> 
> My contempt for you, stems from the fact that people like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. I get your libertarian shctick, and your droning about the individual, I am about as individual as they come. I bring up conservation, you have a knee jerk reaction and start moaning about the gubment and other unrelated subjects. Thats the script, I get it, get a thought of your own. I come over here for very singular reasons: rattle cages, provoke thought, and upset people, it is what I do, it is part of my sales pitch in the market place of ideas. And frankly your wrists just fit the straps of my whipping post well. Thanks! Without you and others like you, my points could not be made nearly as well.
> 
> As for GMOs, I've already spelled that out here, go look it up.


 No, I contend your contempt is deeply rooted in your arrogance and overly high opinion of yourself! One cannot talk about conservation, and the environment, in an honest way without including the 'gubment'. They are intertwined and one is fooling one self to assert otherwise.

As for following "the script", what script is that exactly? I find it sad that a supposed adult thinks it is kosher to intentionally "upset" people. That is what children do, or people who lack the skill to invoke ideas based on merit.

And no, you did NOT spell out the GMO's, you just made vague.....empty.....comments with NO solid evidence to back them up. You also ignored my comments on how GMO's affect other plants and those who desire to raise GMO free crops. Why is that? Is it because you don't care what GMO's do to people, and you don't care about one person(s) forcing their ways on others? Let the market work, and GMO's would be gone in gone in a New York minute! Why, because the moment my neighbor contaminated.....YES I said contaminated.....my crops with GMO's the gig would be up and he would no longer be protected by the government.


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## proutdoors

Lonetree said:


> It is this left/right-right BS that prevents conservation from taking root with sportsmen in any meaningful way. And the FS did not bring us the spotted owl and the pine beetle, thats a nice distractionary bit of tripe though.
> 
> Speaking of spotted owls and old growth forests, can anyone tell me what the most endangered species in the lower 48 is?


First, I never said the FS brought us the spotted owl and the pine beetle.....God did that. What the government...not just the forest service.....did was put up road blocks which allowed the pine beetle to spread further than if the local logging company (oh the humanity!) had been allowed to harvest the infested areas and replant TWICE as many trees as they harvested. As for the spotted owl, the government shut down logging as to 'protect' a BIRD! This devastated the economy, and sadly, did NOTHING to 'protect' the BIRD. Mother Nature must have a sense of humor, because thanks to STUPID environmental policies, the forests became choked full of old growth, bringing in a new type of owl whose favorite source of food just happened to be the wimpy Spotted Owl. This lead to MORE spotted owl deaths than the logging industry could ever have brought about! The label "endangered species" is nonsensical and bull dung, it is a perfect example of over-educated idiots working with/in government agencies to create inane policies that HURT the critters they are supposedly helping. This is typical of government meddling, making something bad and making it worse. Again, the federal government has NO business being involved in ANY 'endangered species', saving the environment, or propping up wildlife polices whatsoever!!! NONE!


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## klbzdad

proutdoors said:


> Lonetree said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is this left/right-right BS that prevents conservation from taking root with sportsmen in any meaningful way. And the FS did not bring us the spotted owl and the pine beetle, thats a nice distractionary bit of tripe though.
> 
> Speaking of spotted owls and old growth forests, can anyone tell me what the most endangered species in the lower 48 is?
> 
> 
> 
> First, I never said the FS brought us the spotted owl and the pine beetle.....God did that. What the government...not just the forest service.....did was put up road blocks which allowed the pine beetle to spread further than if the local logging company (oh the humanity!) had been allowed to harvest the infested areas and replant TWICE as many trees as they harvested. As for the spotted owl, the government shut down logging as to 'protect' a BIRD! This devastated the economy, and sadly, did NOTHING to 'protect' the BIRD. Mother Nature must have a sense of humor, because thanks to STUPID environmental policies, the forests became choked full of old growth, bringing in a new type of owl whose favorite source of food just happened to be the wimpy Spotted Owl. This lead to MORE spotted owl deaths than the logging industry could ever have brought about! The label "endangered species" is nonsensical and bull dung, it is a perfect example of over-educated idiots working with/in government agencies to create inane policies that HURT the critters they are supposedly helping. This is typical of government meddling, making something bad and making it worse. Again, the federal government has NO business being involved in ANY 'endangered species', saving the environment, or propping up wildlife polices whatsoever!!! NONE!
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining it for me Pro. This is how the liberal policies where introduced into government interfering with the best steward of wilderness and wildlife, Mother Nature. Instead of owning the bad policy, they then turned to other crappy policy and decisions which turned out to be just as bad which I don't want to list because they are touchy subject all on their own. I have been dying to see pheasants and other birds do better in Southern and Southern Utah so I am glad you're getting them to do better. I have convinced a land owner outside of Zion to manage his property for pheasant and chakkar. He is also trying some of that new Kochia seed on 30 acres where he has some cheat grass. We'll see how well it does.


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## GaryFish

I'd just throw in that government policy is not to blame for beetle kill, nor for the lack of timber harvest pretty much anywhere in Utah. Outside a few post/pole and cabin operations, timber harvest is not economically viable in Utah. Lack of logging on our national forests here is purely market driven. Nothing more. Nothing less. Our environment of the high desert can not come close to competing with those in the northwest. Beetle kill is a regular part of how forests evolve. 

Where I will give that government policy IS to blame is in how wildfire has been managed. A century of putting out every fire that started has left with unhealthy stands of trees as well as sage brush communities. But such policy was a reflection of the "science" of forest management of the day, and private forests or private lands with forests on them, have been managed the same as the national forests.


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## Lonetree

GaryFish said:


> I'd just throw in that government policy is not to blame for beetle kill, nor for the lack of timber harvest pretty much anywhere in Utah. Outside a few post/pole and cabin operations, timber harvest is not economically viable in Utah. Lack of logging on our national forests here is purely market driven. Nothing more. Nothing less. Our environment of the high desert can not come close to competing with those in the northwest. Beetle kill is a regular part of how forests evolve.
> 
> Where I will give that government policy IS to blame is in how wildfire has been managed. A century of putting out every fire that started has left with unhealthy stands of trees as well as sage brush communities. But such policy was a reflection of the "science" of forest management of the day, and private forests or private lands with forests on them, have been managed the same as the national forests.


touche


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## Lonetree

klbzdad said:


> Oh, I get it. The root of this thread had nothing to do with left or right BS. It HAD to do with the arguement that most have that Colorado does something different than Utah with regard to how mule deer are managed. Every time we go to a RAC, all we hear is, "IF DWR WOULD DO IT LIKE COLORADO DID AND ACTUALLY COUNTED DEER.....BLAH BLAH BLAH." And somehow we are on another subject altogether. I get it.....
> 
> The Sierra Club...In high school I designed a t-shirt of a tent that said sierra club on it with a set of four wheeler tracks going over it and some dude on a quad riding away with a Utah flag flying proudly above it on the way to delicate arch. Maybe I'm just tired of the argument, but yes, the forest service allowed the pine beetle to get out of hand. Its documented that fire controlled the beetle's natural cycle and also allowed new conifer stands to grow. Because of liberal policies that limited logging on Cedar Mountain, for example, we have a tinder box up there. That is poor management and poor policy that also hurt a once beautiful monument.
> 
> I had a ferret once btw. I loved that **** thing but my ex wife kept him and then lied to me about where he ended up when I asked for him. never had the heart to replace him.


That was before I heard the church bell, road in, and hijacked the thread. keep up, did you leave for popcorn?


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## GaryFish

Stepping in with a moderator hat here - 

Great discussions and lets keep them focused on the subject matter and not make personal attacks. 

Thanks.


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## klbzdad

Lonetree said:


> klbzdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I get it. The root of this thread had nothing to do with left or right BS. It HAD to do with the arguement that most have that Colorado does something different than Utah with regard to how mule deer are managed. Every time we go to a RAC, all we hear is, "IF DWR WOULD DO IT LIKE COLORADO DID AND ACTUALLY COUNTED DEER.....BLAH BLAH BLAH." And somehow we are on another subject altogether. I get it.....
> 
> The Sierra Club...In high school I designed a t-shirt of a tent that said sierra club on it with a set of four wheeler tracks going over it and some dude on a quad riding away with a Utah flag flying proudly above it on the way to delicate arch. Maybe I'm just tired of the argument, but yes, the forest service allowed the pine beetle to get out of hand. Its documented that fire controlled the beetle's natural cycle and also allowed new conifer stands to grow. Because of liberal policies that limited logging on Cedar Mountain, for example, we have a tinder box up there. That is poor management and poor policy that also hurt a once beautiful monument.
> 
> I had a ferret once btw. I loved that **** thing but my ex wife kept him and then lied to me about where he ended up when I asked for him. never had the heart to replace him.
> 
> 
> 
> That was before I heard the church bell, road in, and hijacked the thread. keep up, did you leave for popcorn?
Click to expand...

No....I was hopping the moronic liberal snewspaper here had done their job and did a story on the huge logging project going on now on Cedar Mountain to thin out the dead stands and how new growth is coming up. The FS website doesn't even have anything on it but outside of Parawan, just off the freeway they have tons of logs and trucks are coming down all day long. They've cleared hundreds if not thousands of acres now. I concede that fire was mother natures control on the pine beetles life cycle (mentioned that somewhere, again....I'm about done for the week) but there was also a promise to allow for logging in lieu of fires to help control the fuel for fires. Again, that was part of the then new method of distraction that we've discussed before concerning the "wolf" issue.

Lonetree, I don't mind if anyone hijacks a thread. Its good to learn from others here as long as its constructive and not destructive. I enjoy reading opposing views even more than those agreeable to my own. My point was simply that its tiresome to go to a RAC and hear people berate the division and want them to do it how Colorado or Arizona manages mule deer when they along with Utah belong to a group that shares information on how best to manage mule deer based on science and not emotion. Proceed with your argument with Pro. Something tells me that neither of you will concede to the other so NOW I will stay out of it and get some popcorn....where's my bowl?

o-||


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## Lonetree

proutdoors said:


> Lonetree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pro
> 
> My contempt for you, stems from the fact that people like you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. I get your libertarian shctick, and your droning about the individual, I am about as individual as they come. I bring up conservation, you have a knee jerk reaction and start moaning about the gubment and other unrelated subjects. Thats the script, I get it, get a thought of your own. I come over here for very singular reasons: rattle cages, provoke thought, and upset people, it is what I do, it is part of my sales pitch in the market place of ideas. And frankly your wrists just fit the straps of my whipping post well. Thanks! Without you and others like you, my points could not be made nearly as well.
> 
> As for GMOs, I've already spelled that out here, go look it up.
> 
> 
> 
> No, *I contend your contempt is deeply rooted in your arrogance and overly high opinion of yourself!* One cannot talk about conservation, and the environment, in an honest way without including the 'gubment'. They are intertwined and one is fooling one self to assert otherwise.
> 
> As for following "the script", what script is that exactly? I find it sad that a supposed adult thinks it is kosher to intentionally "upset" people. That is what children do, or people who lack the skill to invoke ideas based on merit.
> 
> And no, you did NOT spell out the GMO's, you just made vague.....empty.....comments with NO solid evidence to back them up. You also ignored my comments on how GMO's affect other plants and those who desire to raise GMO free crops. Why is that? Is it because you don't care what GMO's do to people, and you don't care about one person(s) forcing their ways on others? Let the market work, and GMO's would be gone in gone in a New York minute! Why, because the moment my neighbor contaminated.....YES I said contaminated.....my crops with GMO's the gig would be up and he would no longer be protected by the government.
Click to expand...

I explained how GMOs work in another thread.

As for my arrogance, yes, I am an elitist prick. ding, ding, ding, you get the mister obvious award for the day.

Upseting people: Trauma is an amazing educator. Some people have better skills, and teach with storys, around campfires, adding nuance and mystery with slide of hand(doped logs on the fire  ) I'm just not that patient, or smooth. And once again you are engaging me on the subject, are you not?

Pine beetles: Thats what you have been told. A study in Oregon conducted on pine beetle salvage logging showed that the salvage logging spread pine beetles. You and others wont hear that because it goes against your belief system. You can track pine beetle spread on google earth over time, and show how it will begin at campsites and other areas used by man. Not that man is the origonal source, he has just helped to spread it. So yeah, you could implicate the gubment in the spread of pine beetles. Based on the current understanding of the science it was thought that salvage logging was a good thing, makes sense, why let it waste, turns out salvage is not the answer. The bigger and more important question is why? Why is the pine beetle spreading?, what else does this affect? If it reaches certain elevations, does it impact Mule deer summer range significantly? How important is that thermal cover to the deer? How much monitering is in place to identify douglas fir infestatioons? why? because beetles will eat doug fir, but not lay eggs in them, and doug fir are important to mule deer. Can we save these doug fir with insecticide?, will this adversly affect mule deer? Oh wait, who cares? if we shoot coyotes it will take care of that, right?


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## Lonetree

GaryFish said:


> Stepping in with a moderator hat here -
> 
> Great discussions and lets keep them focused on the subject matter and not make personal attacks.
> 
> Thanks.


"subject matter"??? :-?


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## Lonetree




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## stillhunterman

Lonetree said:


>


 -_O- 8)


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## proutdoors

GaryFish said:


> I'd just throw in that government policy is not to blame for beetle kill, nor for the lack of timber harvest pretty much anywhere in Utah. Outside a few post/pole and cabin operations, timber harvest is not economically viable in Utah. *Lack of logging on our national forests here is purely market driven.* Nothing more. Nothing less. Our environment of the high desert can not come close to competing with those in the northwest. Beetle kill is a regular part of how forests evolve.
> 
> Where I will give that government policy IS to blame is in how wildfire has been managed. A century of putting out every fire that started has left with unhealthy stands of trees as well as sage brush communities. But such policy was a reflection of the "science" of forest management of the day, and private forests or private lands with forests on them, have been managed the same as the national forests.


You are flat out WRONG, at least in regards to the beetle infestation up 12 Mile!! Satterwhite is a local logging company that offered to PAY the FS to remove the infested (dead) trees and replant new trees. They were prevented from doing so by a FEDERAL judge. Why? Because pin-headed environmentalists demanded a 3 year study be conducted on the effects logging could have on grouse in the infested areas. This 'study' could have been done in one minute, there were/are NO grouse in the dead forests! The beetles spread like wildfire will awaiting this study. Now, after MILLIONS more trees were killed, Satterwhite is being allowed to do VERY limited logging. This three year study resulted in a major loss of employment in a valley with few employment options. Is Satterwhite in Gunnison as big as the logging companies elsewhere? No! But, they were willing and able to severely limit the beetle damage, but they were prevented from doing so by ONE entity: the Federal Government!


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## proutdoors

Lonetree said:


> I explained how GMOs work in another thread. When/where?
> 
> As for my arrogance, yes, I am an elitist less than admirable being. ding, ding, ding, you get the mister obvious award for the day. So, you admit to being a Jack Wagon............at least we have some progress.
> 
> Upseting people: Trauma is an amazing educator. Some people have better skills, and teach with storys, around campfires, adding nuance and mystery with slide of hand(doped logs on the fire  ) I'm just not that patient, or smooth. And once again you are engaging me on the subject, are you not? Yes, for some dumb reason I have been sucked in by your boorish tactics. So, unless I see an indication o sincerity on your part, this will be my last response to you. I don't like trolls, no matter if you are 'friends' with friends of mine!
> 
> Pine beetles: Thats what you have been told. A study in Oregon conducted on pine beetle salvage logging showed that the salvage logging spread pine beetles. You and others wont hear that because it goes against your belief system. You can track pine beetle spread on google earth over time, and show how it will begin at campsites and other areas used by man. Not that man is the origonal source, he has just helped to spread it. So yeah, you could implicate the gubment in the spread of pine beetles. Based on the current understanding of the science it was thought that salvage logging was a good thing, makes sense, why let it waste, turns out salvage is not the answer. The bigger and more important question is why? Why is the pine beetle spreading?, what else does this affect? If it reaches certain elevations, does it impact Mule deer summer range significantly? How important is that thermal cover to the deer? How much monitering is in place to identify douglas fir infestatioons? why? because beetles will eat doug fir, but not lay eggs in them, and doug fir are important to mule deer. Can we save these doug fir with insecticide?, will this adversly affect mule deer? Oh wait, who cares? if we shoot coyotes it will take care of that, right? When/where/how have I EVER indicated that shooting coyotes would take care of a **** thing? For someone who takes himself so serious as an 'enlightened' one, you sure lack basic reading/comprehension skills....not to mention poor spelling skills to boot......what exactly is "infestatioon", "monitering", or "origonal"? -_O- As for my belief system, it is very simple and straightforward: I trust the market...driven by individuals and profit, over the government....driven by pinheads and narcissists, EVERY time! You mention ONE study, and assert I have "been told" certain things. How the hell do you type such gibberish and expect to be taken serious? I have read stud*ies* on the subject, with various conclusions, which helped me form *MY* opinion on the matter. Now, disagree with my opinions all you want, I expect that. But, to assert I am a sheep led around by the nose is beyond arrogant, the terminology I would use would result in a warning from a mod or two............


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## klbzdad

BACK on TOPIC....

http://www.ndow.org/about/news/pr/2012/ ... quota.shtm

Note the interesting Bullet points about "stockpiling bucks" and how adding tags doesn't translate to that exact amount of bucks being taken. Again, its interesting how another state spells it out the same way Utah does but there are still some who to to a RAC and hit the microphone saying, "we need to do it how (insert favorite state of the day here) does it".

I also read a "yet to be published" study that will show that mule deer are on the decline simply because they are. The study contrasts and compares them to other species that have diverse biological and dietary needs and how those species are either extinct or continue to decline despite the best efforts of human interference to help. Maybe there is a reality none of us want to admit exists.


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## Finnegan

Yup, but more of us are waking up...

http://sportsmen4responsibleenergy.org/ ... erity.html


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## klbzdad

+! That's a great resource Finn! Thanks! I've read a bunch of stuff already.


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