# 100% DRAW FOR 2021??



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I have never developed a POLL on this site. If I knew how, I would have done it. Instead here is my question.

OK, with what went on yesterday as many of us were attempting to purchase a GS Elk permit "on line only". I'd like to see who believes that ALL tags be placed in the draw along with the OIL, LE, CWMU, and GS Deer?

I am in favor of the Elk permits being added to the draw.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

The system worked fine yesterday, a little slow but it didn't crash to my knowledge. But here again, the problem with "online only" is still that many don't have internet or have poor/slow internet making them at a unfair disadvantage.
Yes, a draw would be more fair than "online only"...but expect to pay a small price for the management.
Maybe when we get past this Convid crap we can return to a true OTC process.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

This year is a sucky year. What happened yesterday was probably a one off event derived from:

a.) Covid world, and all the stresses and BS that entrails
b.) Online purchases only

Personally, I don't think upsetting and changing the whole system based on a one off year is wise. Because odds are, once we go down this route, there is no going back, and for many people, the elk hunt is an annual family tradition where the whole family is out camping. Your asking to change a Utah cultural norm. All things considered, the implications of a draw are huge.

Now if we have a repeat of this next year, then lets really scrutinize the situation and strongly consider it. If it happens again the following year, ok.. that would be it for me.. THEN i'd think it is defiantly time to go to a draw system. Because at that point, we'd be at 3 strikes. Once is one off. Twice is maybe the dust settling, three times is a trend. 

My 2 cents, for whatever it's worth.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

One problem with going back to the way that it was on a first come first sold is that there are a lot of folks that work from 8 to 5 and can not access a place where the tags are being sold at. 

I have no idea if yesterday was a fluke or a picture of things to come but all the any bull tags were sold out at around 4:30 pm with the multi-season tags going a little bit later. 

So with this many people wanting tags and not getting them I will wager to say that they are going to be talking about going to a draw. Sad to say for some I also wager that it will be just like the general deer draw and use preference points in it along with all the rules that they have for the draw. 

What ever way they decided to do it the DOW is going to take some heat for the way that it was handled yesterday. There are members here that said that while they were in the que to purchase a tag that someone else that they could see logged in and purchased a tag before them. If that is true there was a major screw up that happened.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Critter said:


> I have no idea if yesterday was a fluke or a picture of things to come but all the any bull tags were sold out at around 4:30 pm with the multi-season tags going a little bit later.


This is not possible, they all come from the same bucket of 15,000 tags. Multi-season included. I suppose there could have been a "glitch" in the system though.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

I like the option of deciding on elk after knowing the results of the other draws. Previous draw results have an affect on my elk hunt decision and I don’t want it lumped in with the regular bucks, bulls and OIL draw.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

To me yesterday just looked like people being people. So far the only people complaining are those applying for an any bull tag.

All the angst being created by people on social media. If nobody said a word, how bad do you think it would have been? People so worried they will sell out before they get theirs created a sensation. The toilet paper rush should have taught a lesson.:smile:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

No reason to change it. These are OTC permits. Some people are so intent on giving up their opportunity it’s sickening. Very low success rate OTC tags. Put them in the draw. Goodness. 

Nope. I oppose 100%.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

middlefork said:


> *To me yesterday just looked like people being people.* So far the only people complaining are those applying for an any bull tag.
> 
> All the angst being created by people on social media. If nobody said a word, how bad do you think it would have been? People so worried they will sell out before they get theirs created a sensation. *The toilet paper rush should have taught a lesson.*:smile:


That is a good point. Once there is a panic about something, for whatever reason, people rush on it.

What would be interesting to know, is on a regular year after all the general season tags are sold out - how many people want a tag but can't get one? And how much is that number increasing on a year by year basis? That's a metric that I don't think has any tangible data to crunch.

This year (Everyone is outdoors this year, not just the usual suspects.), I wonder how many first time hunters bought a tag, and of that number, how many are just trying it to try it, and how many will come back next year? Is that even a trackable metric for DWR?


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

brisket said:


> I like the option of deciding on elk after knowing the results of the other draws. Previous draw results have an affect on my elk hunt decision and I don't want it lumped in with the regular bucks, bulls and OIL draw.


They could do it with the antlerless draw.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

No reason to. Everyone knows the dates for purchasing tags. Everyone has the opportunity to make it happen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

brisket said:


> This is not possible, they all come from the same bucket of 15,000 tags. Multi-season included. I suppose there could have been a "glitch" in the system though.


Is there a xx amount of multi-season tags for spike and xx amount for any bull?

I have no idea if there is or if all 30,000 tags both spike and any bull can be purchased as multi-season.

Inquiring minds want to know.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Critter said:


> brisket said:
> 
> 
> > This is not possible, they all come from the same bucket of 15,000 tags. Multi-season included. I suppose there could have been a "glitch" in the system though.
> ...


All 30,000 can be purchased as multi-season.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> I am in favor of the Elk permits being added to the draw.


It's pretty sad to see a fellow "sportsman" so in favor of limiting, restricting, and taking away opportunities from all the other hunters that live in the same state.

There's a place that is extremely tight on the number of tags given every year, extreme limited opportunities and almost no extra opportunities available for everyone after they don't "draw". It's called California. Maybe you should give that place a look, since they seem to manage their hunters and wildlife the same way you believe utah should be managed


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Hey Moose--how is putting the GS elk in a draw limiting? It's the same amount of tags available to hunters, it's just changing the way they are given out. Draw or OTC, some folks are going to go without a tag, either by not drawing or by not having having access to a computer on the day they go on sale. 

I think it's a little strawman-ish saying someone is limiting opportunity, or to bring up another state, GS tags are already limited by the amount of tags available and the animals on the landscape. 

I get that we don't like change and such but Utah's population is growing fast and change happens--draw just seems more orderly and fair to me than what happened this year.


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## muleydeermaniac (Jan 17, 2008)

Airborne said:


> Hey Moose--how is putting the GS elk in a draw limiting? It's the same amount of tags available to hunters, it's just changing the way they are given out. Draw or OTC, some folks are going to go without a tag, either by not drawing or by not having having access to a computer on the day they go on sale.
> 
> I think it's a little strawman-ish saying someone is limiting opportunity, or to bring up another state, GS tags are already limited by the amount of tags available and the animals on the landscape.
> 
> I get that we don't like change and such but Utah's population is growing fast and change happens--draw just seems more orderly and fair to me than what happened this year.


Here is an honest question Airborne. First I don't get into discussions much, but I have been hunting for decades. Usually there are tags for a good month before they sell out.....Do you think the same thing will happen every year moving forward? I don't see it happening like this every year. It never has before and there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that caused it this year. 
I usually just buy whatever elk tag is left after a couple weeks being out for purchase, but since I didn't draw anything I should have, because of pool jumping and such. I bought a multi-season any bull tag.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

brisket said:


> I like the option of deciding on elk after knowing the results of the other draws. Previous draw results have an affect on my elk hunt decision and I don't want it lumped in with the regular bucks, bulls and OIL draw.


Couldn't agree more! In addition, we all know the dates of these things, all of us had the same opportunity to get a tag. I might be a white-collar guy but guess what? I had to work too and my work requires extreme attention, I'm literally dealing with multimillion dollar deals, I'm in and out of meetings and dealing with clients, negotiating rates and hammering contracts, but I still managed to get it done.

Blue-collar dudes could have turned their lock screen off and had their phones in their pockets, or had their wife do it, or a family member, even a friend. The entire system shouldn't change because some people couldn't get creative.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

middlefork said:


> To me yesterday just looked like people being people. So far the only people complaining are those applying for an any bull tag.
> 
> All the angst being created by people on social media. If nobody said a word, how bad do you think it would have been? People so worried they will sell out before they get theirs created a sensation. The toilet paper rush should have taught a lesson.


I think the TP example is telling though. It wasn't just a rush actually as it was legitimately 1) people who work actually needing TP for home, 2) companies having to retool dedicated commercial lines to domestic TP and 3) even stress buying (was a component) provides an import sense of control during crisis.

I think we could see similar yesterday. People are 1) sincerely concerned about supplying more food themselves, 2) the system had to be adapted for COVID-19 which caused serious delays and flaws, and 3) there is legitimate comfort in having a permit in hand during an international crisis.

All that said, I'm not sure how many more people wanted permits vs people who normally hunt wanting to secure their tag weeks earlier. I'm guessing we'll never really know.

To the notion shared that yesterday worked fine...I refuse to accept that perspective myself. No system should run that poorly. It was inefficient, deceptive, and ultimately didn't even satisfy basic policy (like queue start time). It was by every metric I can think of an absolute failure and actually added anxiety to a system that didn't need it.

To draw...I prefer not. But if it does than I hope it's yet another choice you have to prioritize instead of yet another option to pile up multiple tags in a single year.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

It's called California. Maybe you should give that place a look, since they seem to manage their hunters and wildlife the same way you believe utah should be managed

I think you've been eating "tainted moose meat" and it's tainted your brain function. You seem to always place words in a comment that were never stated. Why? just don't get it.


I have hunted California and I had a great time chasing Hogs about eight years ago. 


I've stated my opinion on a way to make Elk permits available to ALL hunters that desire to hunt them, simply adding them to the draw. Just because you disagree, doesn't give you the privilege to verbally attach another person for not having the same belief. :O//:


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Ray said:


> Couldn't agree more! In addition, we all know the dates of these things, all of us had the same opportunity to get a tag. I might be a white-collar guy but guess what? I had to work too and my work requires extreme attention, I'm literally dealing with multimillion dollar deals, I'm in and out of meetings and dealing with clients, negotiating rates and hammering contracts, but I still managed to get it done.
> 
> Blue-collar dudes could have turned their lock screen off and had their phones in their pockets, or had their wife do it, or a family member, even a friend. The entire system shouldn't change because some people couldn't get creative.


So your the test example YOU got it done so the system MUST be working. 
I hope next time your required to be a little more dedicated to those multi-million dollar deals and it opens up a tag for the next guy.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

weaversamuel76 said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > Couldn't agree more! In addition, we all know the dates of these things, all of us had the same opportunity to get a tag. I might be a white-collar guy but guess what? I had to work too and my work requires extreme attention, I'm literally dealing with multimillion dollar deals, I'm in and out of meetings and dealing with clients, negotiating rates and hammering contracts, but I still managed to get it done.
> ...


Don't hate the player, hate the game. Also, I never said it was perfect, obviously something needs some adjusting, but that doesn't mean you throw out the entire system.

If I got it done with how swamped I am, you could have too.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Ready for it:

Non resident should open 3 days later for OTC tags. 



Also - Yesterday we saw people buying 4-7 tags for friends because they panicked. Right in line with the rest of 2020, fear and panic drove the sales to occur much sooner. I didn't get in until 1030 and there were 9K Any bull tags still, despite me being 65K in line or something like that. 

The panic spread. You also have tons of people who don't plan on being in office in the fall. We may see this happen next year because of the fear that occurred this year. 



Lots of variables. If we change anything, it's the non res thing. OTC should stay. 


Thanks, and uh... Full Random.


Oh and $10 application fees, like taxes, are an infringement. :mrgreen:

App Fees are unconstitutional (insert Bernie with Reagan peace signs)


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Ray said:


> Don't hate the player, hate the game. Also, I never said it was perfect, obviously something needs some adjusting, but that doesn't mean you throw out the entire system.
> 
> If I got it done with how swamped I am, you could have too.


That's the purpose of the thread to hate the game. Yep I'm a bit bitter.

I'm actually glad it worked for you but do have to acknowledge the fact that not all situations are equal.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Ray,

I get the sentiment but it's not accurate to assume everyone/anyone could manage that simply because you were able to. Several people have explained situations in which they couldn't participate. We may accept that because any system is imperfect but I think we can still have sympathy for them because it does suck.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> . Just because you disagree, doesn't give you the privilege to verbally attach another person for not having the same belief.


Says the guy who does exactly that when someone states an opinion or idea that he doesn't agree with... :roll:


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

muleydeermaniac said:


> Here is an honest question Airborne. First I don't get into discussions much, but I have been hunting for decades. Usually there are tags for a good month before they sell out.....Do you think the same thing will happen every year moving forward? I don't see it happening like this every year. It never has before and there are a lot of extenuating circumstances that caused it this year.
> I usually just buy whatever elk tag is left after a couple weeks being out for purchase, but since I didn't draw anything I should have, because of pool jumping and such. I bought a multi-season any bull tag.


Good questions--> I'm not sure if it will happen like this again next year, maybe this year is out of whack or maybe this is the norm going forward. I think with a lot of outdoors media (meateater, Joe Rogan) pushing elk hunting as being super cool it is getting more popular. I would say folks will remember this year and if it stays OTC next year you will have a lot of folks ready to rock and roll on their computers at 8AM sharp and they will sell out in 3 hours instead. Or maybe I am wrong and they won't sell out for two weeks. Every state with limited OTC tags has sold out sooner and sooner each year, that is a fact (Idaho is a great example). It's only a matter of time until it reaches a breaking point and here we are. Do we want to try another year to see if we have a repeat cluster bomb? I would prefer not taking the chance but I could very well be wrong.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I agree, it was a crappy situation, even for those of us that it worked out for. Maybe let the people that already know they’re going to buy the tag buy one during the application period? Then those of us will who will buy one depending on what we draw can get one after results come out?


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

It definitely sucks for kids


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Also - does a MASSIVE cut in deer tags play into this? We saw cuts across a number of species. 

So you have:
-Covid
-Covid gov money (easier to buy tags)
-People knowing they will work from home, or have extra leave saved because of no vacations (covid)
-Deer tag cuts, massive
-People panicking because the system wasn't properly equipped



That's a lot of extra crap vs normal. Many will realize they wasted money when they go out expecting to be Cam Hanes shooting $40k elk from the road and quickly learn elk hunting sucks and they are hard to find, and worse to pack out.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Not trying to be a heartless *******, just want to avoid turning it into another thing to apply for


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Ray said:


> Not trying to be a heartless *******, just want to avoid turning it into another thing to apply for


Totally get the sentiment but the same was said for general deer years ago as Critter has pointed out. Supply and demand is a heck of a thing.

I honestly wouldn't mind if these GS Elk tags were placed in the larger 'General tag' bucket along with the general deer and use the same points. I would rather that than their own points and where you can only hunt general elk once every three years which is what I bet would happen. Make hunters choose to get that GS deer tag or choose a GS elk tag. Any left overs can be thrown to the masses in a clustered frenzy but those that truly want to hunt elk have to choose. Interesting to think about.

For the record I don't care about the $10 app fees--it's my wildlife tithing :grin:


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Airborne said:


> Totally get the sentiment but the same was said for general deer years ago as Critter has pointed out. Supply and demand is a heck of a thing.
> 
> I honestly wouldn't mind if these GS Elk tags were placed in the larger 'General tag' bucket along with the general deer and use the same points. I would rather that than their own points and where you can only hunt general elk once every three years which is what I bet would happen. Make hunters choose to get that GS deer tag or choose a GS elk tag. Any left overs can be thrown to the masses in a clustered frenzy but those that truly want to hunt elk have to choose. Interesting to think about.
> 
> For the record I don't care about the $10 app fees--it's my wildlife tithing :grin:


See... in one post you talked about LESS opportunity (combining deer and elk, only hunting elk every 3 years), and also advocated for MORE pointless fees.

So I will STRONGLY disagree with your suggestions :mrgreen:

But still respect you, even if it was ridiculous.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Ohhh I am a contradictory mess! fully own that one! :grin:

I'm just brainstorming and spit balling--slow day at work and needed a break from the crazy


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

brisket said:


> I like the option of deciding on elk after knowing the results of the other draws. Previous draw results have an affect on my elk hunt decision and I don't want it lumped in with the regular bucks, bulls and OIL draw.


I feel the same as Brisket.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Why anyone would be in favor of limiting opportunities and putting less tags in the pockets every year, even if they are “general”, is beyond me. I’ve always had a general deer tag and elk tag in my pocket. Why should I be limited to just 1 a year? Success rates aren’t great on those tags, the resource is doing fine. Why would you want to limit how many times a guy can go hunting every year, from 4 weekends to just 2? For some of us, those hunts are what we look forward to and keep us sane throughout the year. And you want to limit one’s ability to just one of those? Come on.

I think we should sit tight on this issue for another year or so and see what happens. If this is the new trend, then fine, put them in the draw and sell left overs after the draw. 

This is the first time in ever this has happened. Jumping to conclusions and demanding change over a possible one time deal is stupid. Kinda like hoarding TP. Dumb.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

We are not talking about less tags. 
The main point is a more fair way to distribute them. 
With my job I was up on the mountain with a delivery. Had to leave by 9 am. No internet service up there. Tried to get it done before leaving. Wasn't real worried, figured there would still be some left when I got back. 
So did not come up with a "creative work around". It's never been that nutso before.

I know u won't cry for me.........that's okay !!
I'll get an archery either sex tag and be fine. 
BUT.......if this is the new model going forward to get elk tags, it will have to be changed. Just as the deer tags had to change. 
Thats my opinion and I have a right to have that opinion.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Hey,
I just had flashback on standing and camping in line for a deer tag a few years ago........
Does that kind of sound like yesterday 😬


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

2full said:


> We are not talking about less tags.
> The main point is a more fair way to distribute them.
> With my job I was up on the mountain with a delivery. Had to leave by 9 am. No internet service up there. Tried to get it done before leaving. Wasn't real worried, figured there would still be some left when I got back.
> So did not come up with a "creative work around". It's never been that nutso before.
> ...


You're talking about less tags if they make you pick between a general deer or general elk tag app in the draw, and not allowing people to apply for both, like some in this post have suggested


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> Why anyone would be in favor of limiting opportunities and putting less tags in the pockets every year, even if they are "general", is beyond me. I've always had a general deer tag and elk tag in my pocket. Why should I be limited to just 1 a year? Success rates aren't great on those tags, the resource is doing fine. Why would you want to limit how many times a guy can go hunting every year, from 4 weekends to just 2? For some of us, those hunts are what we look forward to and keep us sane throughout the year. And you want to limit one's ability to just one of those? Come on.
> You make a good point, I have a lot of out of state stuff planned each year so the local opportunity isn't as important for me to have multiple Utah tags and the deer tag isn't a big deal to me but the Uintas elk tag is, I will give up my other GS tags just to have that--I was brainstorming anyways--it's not a bad thing to kick around ideas
> 
> I think we should sit tight on this issue for another year or so and see what happens. If this is the new trend, then fine, put them in the draw and sell left overs after the draw. fair enough, not a bad suggestion but I don't think this is a one off
> ...


A clean bum is always important! ;-)


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

So Moose--if the GS elk goes to a draw and they have their own point system and let's say with the demand that you can hunt every other year or once every three years would you rather have that or pile them in with GS deer where it pulls folks out of the deer species that wish to hunt elk making it easier to draw deer for those that want to and making the GS elk a guaranteed tag every year. This would increase odds and opportunity for both deer and elk but you wouldn't get both tags each year, just a better shot at one every year. These are all hypotheticals of course--don't think I am proposing anything, just asking opinions so don't come after me!:grin:


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I am not an advocate for making anyone picking one or the other. If u draw both, I'm good with that. And prob would be a time or two that I got neither.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Airborne said:


> So Moose--if the GS elk goes to a draw and they have their own point system and let's say with the demand that you can hunt every other year or once every three years would you rather have that or pile them in with GS deer where it pulls folks out of the deer species that wish to hunt elk making it easier to draw deer for those that want to and making the GS elk a guaranteed tag every year. This would increase odds and opportunity for both deer and elk but you wouldn't get both tags each year, just a better shot at one every year. These are all hypotheticals of course--don't think I am proposing anything, just asking opinions so don't come after me!:grin:


Ive been told that some guys are waiting 3+ years inbetween deer tags currently. But I've never experienced it. Neither has anyone in my family. I've applied for 17 general deer tags since I was 14, and I've drawn every single year. And it's not in a unit that has leftover permits every year. So I don't believe that I'd wait 3+ years for an archery spike tag or even a 3 season tag. So no, I'd rather be able to apply for both and draw both. Or draw none. However the cards play out, I'd still want to opportunity to apply for both at the same time. But I think throwing general elk tags into a draw over one weird year, where everything has been completely ducked to begin with, is stupid. We need to see if this is the new norm before we take drastic measures.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

2full said:


> We are not talking about less tags.
> The main point is a more fair way to distribute them.
> With my job I was up on the mountain with a delivery. Had to leave by 9 am. No internet service up there. Tried to get it done before leaving. Wasn't real worried, figured there would still be some left when I got back.
> So did not come up with a "creative work around". It's never been that nutso before.
> ...


A more fair way... lol. 2020.

Lets get rid of Trophies, and make sure EVERYONE gets the consolation of a participation trophy. *What makes anyone think a system that provides each of us an equal opportunity of chance, is unfair?* The tags go on sale at 8am for literally all of us. How is that not fair? In your situation, you figured it would be fine. You could have given your customer id to your wife, son, buddy, uncle... I mean very few have NO ONE that hunts and I am sorry if you did. But why change the entire system? Sounds entitled a little, and I mean that respectfully.

What you want is a guaranteed prize. Even if that prize ensures no one has a deer and elk tag, or no one hunts elk more than every 3 years, so you can feel better that no one has MORE trophies than you, but has the same amount of participation awards.

I don't mean you specifically... I just mean anyone presenting ideas that somehow what took place yesterday wasn't fair. Tags were on sale for over 8 hours. So in 8 hours what wasn't fair?

Deer tags didn't need to change either. They didn't even need to go to a 30 unit - that got to ride the wave of being better management until a storm happened and the result was exactly what we had under the old system lol.

AND of course you are entitled to an opinion ;-)


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Airborne said:


> So Moose--if the GS elk goes to a draw and they have their own point system and let's say with the demand that you can hunt every other year or once every three years would you rather have that or pile them in with GS deer where it pulls folks out of the deer species that wish to hunt elk making it easier to draw deer for those that want to and making the GS elk a guaranteed tag every year. This would increase odds and opportunity for both deer and elk but you wouldn't get both tags each year, just a better shot at one every year. These are all hypotheticals of course--don't think I am proposing anything, just asking opinions so don't come after me!:grin:


All of these suggestions just lead us to compounding the issue we already have.

Why doesn't everyone in here, go read the antlerless thread we just had. Where people are upset that X points won't swing a tag. It will just become the same problem. Keeping it first come first serve never promises you anything - nor should it. It does give you an equal chance every year. That's the purest form of opportunity and equality.

I would take the mad dash that occurred yesterday than not drawing a stupid doe pronghorn with 5 points any day. I would rather never be the guy to pull a tag under that system than the one now where I stare at stupid points and odds. Why we feel entitled because last year we were unlucky is crazy.

THERE IS NO SOLUTION WHERE WE GET SOME "EQUAL" OR "FAIR" HUNTING WORLD.

Especially when supply is less than demand. Lines that have an extended time of return aren't a solution.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Sooo Full Random OTC! :grin:


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

So Random16.......
You want to back to the madhouse for deer also. ?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

2full said:


> So Random16.......
> You want to back to the madhouse for deer also. ?


All day long.

When units like Ogden are now below a 100% shot with archery - it's going to look like antlerless, which will soon look like LE. It's a pointless system. 5+ points to get a tag for an animal without antlers that has less meat than the male counterpart? Lol...

Other archery units are a 1 in 3 chance or worse? For a dang general deer? WHY???

It's like being happy you are ahead of others in line, even though you won't get to the front before the store closes. By store closing, I mean your life.

Most people will never hunt a great deer unit and a great elk unit in their life. So what is the purpose of being slaves to the points? You know how many people are stuck in an OIAL line? 15 moose points and thinking you have a chance?

15 deer points and you either waste them on a "sub par" unit or hold your breathe and wait another 15-25 to maybe draw pauns or Henry's? My dad spent 22 years of his life waiting for the Henry's. You start putting in today and you are looking at over 30 years. That's a "fair" and good system?

And now we want GENERAL tags to enter that circus? Demand will always outweigh supply now. So once we decide to form a line, it will ALWAYS exist and ALWAYS grow.

It's pointless. If it were me I would make the whole darn system a "madhouse". General and antlerless are OTC first come first serve - everything else is full random. Waiting periods still apply. Draw a OIAL and you wait 3 years before you can enter for another.

22,000 people in line for moose, with 120 tags a year. But hey at least you have some participation trophy points to feel good and fair.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I imagine that if the general elk hunt enters the draw system they will do it the same way as general deer and make it a preference point system with no change to spike or any bull units. 

That way you may have to sit out a couple of years but then you will be at the head of the line again and draw a tag. Then sit out a couple more or even longer depending on the demand for the 30,000 general season elk tags that Utah offers. 

As for elk archery tags they could just let it play out as it is now.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Wow....you are one negative person. 
I guess I've just been one lucky SOB. 
I drew paunsguant muzzle deer with four points. Drew a buffalo with 14 when max was 20. 
Had antelope tags, drew a turkey tag the first year they did the Rio draw in 91 when there was only 5 tags. A couple of elk LE tags. And I'm right there again for a LE elk muzzle tag. 
And I kny a couple of guys that have been even luckier than me. 
So..... I guess my view is a little slanted.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

2full said:


> Wow....you are one negative person.
> I guess I've just been one lucky SOB.
> I drew paunsguant muzzle deer with four points. Drew a buffalo with 14 when max was 20.
> Had antelope tags, drew a turkey tag the first year they did the Rio draw in 91 when there was only 5 tags. A couple of elk LE tags. And I'm right there again for a LE elk muzzle tag.
> ...


Wow, no wonder you were ticked you didn't get a general any bull tag! You've got all the luck!!! :grin:

What you're describing is exactly why I like Utah's draw system for LE and OIL. I really don't want to see our OTC turn into the same, however.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Ahh to hell with it, I’m going to get an archery elk tag in MT next year if I don’t draw my LE archery tag here. Problem solved.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

How many members were hunting when you could buy 3 deer tags a year? (Archery, Rifle, Muzzleloader) Just walk into a license agent and get one. No limit on tags, just pay the man and off you go. 


When that ended, folks squealed. Then it changed to "pick your unit" Five units to choose and it was a draw. Again, some squealed. 


Now we have, I don't know how many "subunits" and you still have to draw the tag. Folks squealed again. 


Remember the year that the DWR made spike bull units? (I think it was 1987???) People squealed. 


I see a trend for sure! Hunters just don't like change and don't want limits placed on them. Well, as said before----"Supply and demand" It's also called "conditioning". I honestly believe the big game hunts will become a draw for all tags within 5 years. Ya, some will squeal and throw a fit, but that's expected. They have "conditioned" us since the late 80's early 90's. 


I'm grateful that I've had a fun ride hunting since the late 70's! I'll miss the opportunity of hunting every animal every year. But hey, I've seen it coming for more than 40 years. I've been "conditioned".


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Go back and look at my post's 10 years ago about demand and available opportunity.

Saw this coming a LONG time ago.

Only going to get worse.

The good ol days are gone..


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I was very lucky 20 years ago.
Worked for USO.
United States Outfitters.
STILL DO.

In 2005 guided 50 hunts that year.
Ya, 50, one year!
Utah, New Mexico and Arizona.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> How many members were hunting when you could buy 3 deer tags a year? (Archery, Rifle, Muzzleloader) Just walk into a license agent and get one. No limit on tags, just pay the man and off you go.


I dont ever remember 3 deer tags a year. It was 1 for archery and 1 for rifle, the ML tag was an extension to the rifle season. If you tagged out on the rifle hunt you couldnt hunt ML.

But on another note, anyone can still buy just about any tag in the state, OTC, LE, OIL... it just comes down to how important it is to you and if its worth the $$$. Alot of guys pony up $4k every year for private lands deer tags. Bookcliffs deer is $7-8000. Anyone on this site could buy one of those tags... if it were a high enough priority.

-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm sure all members could hunt deer every year by paying for a private tag. But, how many can afford it? If the day ever comes that I have to pay a substantial amount of money to hunt any animal, that's when I hang up the boots and pull out the waders. 


Hunting to me is more time out of doors hanging with family and friends, enjoying others company and just getting away from it all. 


This year I intend to track every penny spent on hunting big game. I want to see the money difference in savings (if any at all) between hunting for the freezer and buying for the freezer. Money to weight of meat is what I'll be looking at. I know you can't substitute the quality and health of wild game compared to domestic protean, but I'm curious as to the cost effectiveness of hunting meat to eat.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

taxidermist said:


> I know you can't substitute the quality and health of wild game compared to domestic protean, but I'm curious as to the cost effectiveness of hunting meat to eat.


I'll save you some time. It's not cost effective at all. Wild game is by far the most expensive meat in my freezer.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ya
It was only 2 bucks a year.
Never 3


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

brisket said:


> I'll save you some time. It's not cost effective at all. Wild game is by far the most expensive meat in my freezer.


Actually with the cost breakdown if you don't go purchase new equipment every fey years it becomes cheaper.

You have to eat no matter what so you really can't figure in food

Now gas for your vehicle perhaps, but what else are you doing? Are you going camping without hunting?

ATV's, like I said above it gets cheaper as you go, that is as long as you don't go buying a new one every few years.

Butcher your own or let a butcher do it, yes butchers charge for their service so do it yourself and save.

If you take time off of work non paid then it is better to just go purchase a half a beef.

But in the long run there is just the shear enjoyment of getting out and enjoying the hunt. Some folks need to kill a animal for every tag that they have. I myself enjoy a fresh deer in my freezer about every 3 years. A elk one about every 5. And I do go into the hole buying tags.

But I have always said that if you want to save money sell all of your hunting equipment and buy a few fishing poles and go fishing. The license is a lot cheaper and you can do it all year. Catch a limit and eat them, then go catch another limit, not on the same day. We don't want any law breakers here.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Calculating costs is tricky. Do you figure in the cost of the rifle? What about a rifle you've owned for 30 years... pro-rate it?


I dont spend very much at all on actual hunting costs. Excluding the actual buck tag, I spend more on worms in a year fishing than I do on my deer hunting costs. Deer is cheap meat still, way cheaper than I could buy hormone filled cheap burger from the local market.



-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

brisket said:


> I'll save you some time. It's not cost effective at all. Wild game is by far the most expensive meat in my freezer.


Dang it!!! I know that but I was hoping for a different outcome. Now I guess I'll just stay home and watch football...&#8230;&#8230;..Oh, wait, I forgot that contact sport may not happen because of a Virus thing. Have you heard about it???


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

What about a rifle you've owned for 30 years... pro-rate it?

A rifle that's 30+ years old I bet has gone UP in value. A Ruger M77-R in 1981 was only $235.00 I still have that rifle in a 25-06. I've seen that same rifle in a pawn shop and they wanted $450.00 

It was only 2 bucks a year.
 Never 3

That's right, I remember shooting a nice 4x4 buck with my bow and was attempting to find a bigger buck to use the rifle tag I had in my pocket.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

DallanC said:


> But on another note, anyone can still buy just about any tag in the state, OTC, LE, OIL... it just comes down to how important it is to you and if its worth the $$$. Alot of guys pony up $4k every year for private lands deer tags. Bookcliffs deer is $7-8000. Anyone on this site could buy one of those tags... if it were a high enough priority.
> 
> -DallanC


^^^^^THIS X 1,000,000

The last seven pages of posts have provided some great viewpoints on the current and future availability of tags.

No matter how a system is designed, draw or OTC, for some group of people, it'll always be unfair. I see both arguments for a draw system and an OTC system.

Maybe we should all register as bidders and all the tags go into a giant auction.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

This is my favorite thread (in honor of Goob)! We are discussing going to more draws and then someone references USO- which sued Arizona to change the resident/nonres quotas. 
That one decision caused more issues for Utah than many realize. USO's lawsuit is how the Expo received the 200 permits. Just some irony!

I really dislike the thought of going to a draw with points for General Season elk. If they do, they need to drop the phrase "General Season".


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Packout said:


> I really dislike the thought of going to a draw with points for General Season elk. If they do, they need to drop the phrase "General Season".


Yup. "General season" will be something people in our age group talk about around the campfire in 20 years. We'll be telling stories about "the good ole days" to our grand kids that waited 5 years to get a Uintas elk tag that was available to us old geezers every year back in the good old days.

I didn't like what happened the other day at all. I didn't expect to have to fight that hard for my "general" elk tag for a couple more years at least. I wasn't that surprised by it either.

Unfortunately I don't think the general season elk tag has a shelf life of more than a year or 2 from now. I hope I'm wrong.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

The sad thing is this isn't inevitable. The DWR knows hunter numbers are increasing in our state but still has a fetish with hunter recruitment. That strategy makes sense with states in which stakeholders are decreasing but that isn't remotely true for Utah.

I think the field of wildlife biology needs a few creative people to start thinking about this issue from a new angle. We've been operating under the same paradigm for 1-2 decades and it's creating scarcity for Utah hunters. There are still enough opportunities to hunt but demand is clearly starting to catch up with and outpace supply in many aspects.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

2full said:


> Wow....you are one negative person.
> I guess I've just been one lucky SOB.
> I drew paunsguant muzzle deer with four points. Drew a buffalo with 14 when max was 20.
> Had antelope tags, drew a turkey tag the first year they did the Rio draw in 91 when there was only 5 tags. A couple of elk LE tags. And I'm right there again for a LE elk muzzle tag.
> ...


Being a realist isn't negative. How many people on this forum have 20+ points, 15+ points?

What you outlined is actually what I am for: The LINE didn't benefit you. The random draw did.

Unfortunately, many in the "line" don't have your luck and just slowly step forward.

Oh - and this is coming from a guy who drew deseret elk with 7 points. But good thing there are guys who had 20 points to feel better, like one day it will be their rightful turn if they are alive for it. I'm not even advocating for myself. I am saying each year, everyone having the same chance at a tag is beautiful. It's exciting. I felt that way putting in for the Ewe this year. I was like well - even if it's 1:250 odds that's pretty awesome. Anyone could get it!



taxidermist said:


> How many members were hunting when you could buy 3 deer tags a year? (Archery, Rifle, Muzzleloader) Just walk into a license agent and get one. No limit on tags, just pay the man and off you go.
> 
> When that ended, folks squealed. Then it changed to "pick your unit" Five units to choose and it was a draw. Again, some squealed.
> 
> ...


Change is fine.. bad change isn't.

What I thought you were laying out is the timeline of our hunt system going to crap to be honest lol.

You are right about supply and demand, which is why I said earlier: Form a line and that line is permanent, and will always grow. Maybe to some people waiting in line makes more sense than luck of the draw. There is comfort in knowing you are moving forward - even if under a full random draw you could draw 17x while you are waiting for your "turn" in the current system.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Airborne said:


> Sooo Full Random OTC! :grin:


I'd make it random OTC for everything. Get rid of LE crap and just make it whole state OTC first come first serve for everything except the OIL.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Brettski7 said:


> I'd make it ransomware OTC for everything. Get rid of LE crap and just make it whole state OTC first come first serve for everything except the OIL.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's the spirit!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I can see the lawsuits already

I will actually be surprised if some don't threaten them after the other day..


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

2full said:


> Hey,
> I just had flashback on standing and camping in line for a deer tag a few years ago........
> Does that kind of sound like yesterday &#128556;


Ha, as I was reading the posts in this thread I was thinking the same thing, at least I didn't have to camp out in line to get my tag, but thinking back it was some good bonding time with friends and kids.

TOP, another angel got his wings.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> I can see the lawsuits already
> 
> I will actually be surprised if some don't threaten them after the other day..


People can sue for anything they want. It doesn't mean they will prevail. I'm interested to know what right is implicated or what harm was suffered last week that a person would have legitimate claim for redress here?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

As you said people sue for any reason that they can come up with. 

But I can imagine a few that got kicked out out of the que after sitting there for a couple of hours or if it is true where one person was sitting in the que and his wife logged in and purchased a tag before he did. 

No different than a couple of years ago when the bison hunters out on Wild Horse Bench did something that allowed them to hunt a second season on the same tag. Someone was running scared on that one in my opinion.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

So there was technology glitches, but that doesn’t give someone a cause of action. Especially one that is likely to be successful. 

I still wonder what damages someone would be able to show even if they were first in line and got kicked out 500 times until they were sold out. What will they sue for? Pain and suffering from the DWR’s intentional infliction of emotional distress?!?!? :grin:


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## flyfisher20 (Aug 5, 2011)

Critter said:


> As you said people sue for any reason that they can come up with.
> 
> But I can imagine a few that got kicked out out of the que after sitting there for a couple of hours or if it is true where one person was sitting in the que and his wife logged in and purchased a tag before he did.
> 
> No different than a couple of years ago when the bison hunters out on Wild Horse Bench did something that allowed them to hunt a second season on the same tag. Someone was running scared on that one in my opinion.


The wife logging in and buying a tag before me did happen. I sat in queue for three and a half hours, then finally called my wife and had her go in as well to see who would get in first. When she got in (another 3 hours later) I was still 492 in queue. I know my wife is way better looking than me, but I didn't know even the DWR software knew that. Guess I was wrong

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> So there was technology glitches, but that doesn't give someone a cause of action. Especially one that is likely to be successful.
> 
> I still wonder what damages someone would be able to show even if they were first in line and got kicked out 500 times until they were sold out. What will they sue for? Pain and suffering from the DWR's intentional infliction of emotional distress?!?!? :grin:


In this day and age and with knowing the Divisions track record of problems with their web site as far as draws and a few other things are concerned they should of known.

But who am I but a customer of theirs who depends on their technology to be able to purchase a tag in their system that is sold on a first come first served.............or is it???


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> So there was technology glitches, but that doesn't give someone a cause of action. Especially one that is likely to be successful.
> 
> I still wonder what damages someone would be able to show even if they were first in line and got kicked out 500 times until they were sold out. What will they sue for? Pain and suffering from the DWR's intentional infliction of emotional distress?!?!? :grin:


Mental anguish. I know I'm bat sh!t crazy now after going through that.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Critter said:


> Vanilla said:
> 
> 
> > So there was technology glitches, but that doesn't give someone a cause of action. Especially one that is likely to be successful.
> ...


I think we all are disappointed there but that's not likely to be a sufficient cause for a successful lawsuit, is what I hear Vanilla saying. Just because something went wrong doesn't mean we have legal recourse through a lawsuit.

But people try all the time.

The only likely outcomes are plenty of justified complaints to the agency, some uncomfortable RAC meetings and possibly employment ramifications for those involved (less likely given what I've seen).


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

flyfisher20 said:


> The wife logging in and buying a tag before me did happen. I sat in queue for three and a half hours, then finally called my wife and had her go in as well to see who would get in first. When she got in (another 3 hours later) I was still 492 in queue. I know my wife is way better looking than me, but I didn't know even the DWR software knew that. Guess I was wrong
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same thing happened to me! She logged on 45 minutes after I did.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Systems Consultants out of Fallon Nevada ran the the application process. Not the DWR.

I don't think any state employee is in danger of losing their job for what happened. It was the "prefect storm". People will be looking at what happened and improve the experience for next time. That is unless a few vocal people get their way and the any bull tags go to a draw. Then it is "be careful what you wish for".


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

middlefork said:


> People will be looking at what happened and improve the experience for next time.


Ha! Good luck with that. This is government, there is zero incentive to improve the experience.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

brisket said:


> Ha! Good luck with that. This is government, there is zero incentive to improve the experience.


Particularly if the goal is to move it to a draw to increase revenue.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

middlefork said:


> Systems Consultants out of Fallon Nevada ran the the application process. Not the DWR.


They run the application process but I don't believe that they run the online sales.

I noticed the other day that Utah's web site was basically down except for the large area that you could click on to go to the online sales.

I also noticed on the deer tag FAQ's for Tuesdays sales that the DWR is stating "Because of the high level of traffic, many of the pages on our website are not available. We expect our full website to be available later this morning."

If it was system consultants wouldn't the DWR page be available at all times like it is during the application period starting in January?

Correct me if I am wrong if you know for sure.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

middlefork said:


> Systems Consultants out of Fallon Nevada ran the the application process. Not the DWR.
> 
> I don't think any state employee is in danger of losing their job for what happened. It was the "prefect storm". People will be looking at what happened and improve the experience for next time. That is unless a few vocal people get their way and the any bull tags go to a draw. Then it is "be careful what you wish for".


They may have run it but the buck stops with an individual in the DWR who admitted to such over the phone. I know a person who got his number and called him directly; A good not keeper at that,as anyone who has worked in HR knows to do. Said person at the agency needs to learn some fundamental lessons about what to say and what not say to stakeholders they serve.

I know this person and several others communicated directly with the Governor's office at length and with details about their phone calls with said DWR employee. Termination is unlikely but I bet a call from the Governor's office gets your attention real fast at that level of employment. And having worked HR I know documentation of such failures and errors stays with you for a while. They won't be forgetting that day and the role they played in it for a while.

Not to mention...the system suddenly became less stuck soon after those calls to the Governor and the agency started being more contrite than normal in their social media messaging.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I pulled this quote from elkfromabove on the MM website. I kind of trust what he says about draws.

I believe you are accessing System Consultants servers through a portal on the DWR website. Now there could be a problem with the capacity of the DWR servers to handle the traffic.

"The draw, including the draw website, the numbers, the processing, the results, the odds report, and even the printing and mailing of the permits is done by Systems Consultants (AKA: Utah Wildlife Administration), 448 West Williams Ave, Fallon, NV 89406,(Don H Sefton, owner), which is under contract with the DWR. To state or imply that this mess is the fault of the DWR is just not the case! But, then again, EVERYTHING that you don't like about wildlife management is the DWR's fault!"


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I believe you but it doesn't make any sense that the whole front page of the DWR's website was dedicated to the purchase of elk tags, and close to nothing else. 

A simple link to a different site would of been all that was needed. 

To get some other information that day I had to find a backdoor into the DWR's website instead of the front page. That is where I was thinking that the DWR was actually selling the tags since you couldn't go anywhere else on their site.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

It's great that he doesn't think it's their fault. I disagree and the actual DWR lead does to. You can subcontract out a project like that but at the end of the day the agency is still accountable for it's failures.

They should have been stress testing that system for weeks leading up to the sales event. There is no reason DWR shouldn't have known of the system's weaknesses and addressed them well before it went live. And the numbers weren't unprecedented and could have been mitigated properly. It's 2020 and companies know how to handle tens of thousands of server requests. It was a preventable situation and that failure needs to reside with the DWR employee. 

Welcome to project management. If the person doesn't want the responsibility than they should move on to a different job.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

If I contract out a project and it fails - *it's my fault.* The thought that I could walk in and tell my boss someone else blew it is hilarious.

Then again, these guys still defend the Expo and way they use conservation permits so they wouldn't know proper contracting if it hit them in the face.

They also DINGED RMEF for recommending using Systems Consultants if they won the expo... so why they trust them is beyond me.

Maybe next year the SFW expo bro in his basement can set up the OTC buy system for them....


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Ditto. These are Utah's tags. The Wildlife Board has specific stewardship over those tags and the processes surrounding them, and they have delegated this to the DWR. 

The buck stops there. That is how the world works.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Ok you guys win! Hit them where it hurts. No more application fees.

Yea the Governor probably has more things to worry about than a measly tag draw. Next year one of you guys can step up and solve the problem. Should be a job opening.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Literally not my job and I'm not interested in it. But I am a stakeholder and tons of us were negatively affected by this failure and incompetence. 

The employee responsible should have consequences. Lots of grey area to play with between termination and not responsible. A substandard performance review for 2020, and all of its subsequent salary fallout, would be just one possibility.

Not to mention the person needs a refresher course in basic customer service as their statements were laughable at best.

And the Governor's office evidently cared enough to intervene that day. I've found talking kindly to an administrative assistant at that level actually creates a lot of momentum, especially when it's constructive and detailed criticism. Individuals in those positions carry a lot more influence than people realize and the ears they bend get stuff done.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

middlefork said:


> Ok you guys win! Hit them where it hurts. No more application fees.
> 
> Yea the Governor probably has more things to worry about than a measly tag draw. Next year one of you guys can step up and solve the problem. Should be a job opening.


*Pretends government incompetence isn't a thing*

:shock::mrgreen:


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> *Pretends incompetence isn't a thing*
> 
> :shock::mrgreen:


There fixed it for you. :mrgreen:
Everybody is incompetent in something. Most not quite so much in public view.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

backcountry said:


> Literally not my job and I'm not interested in it. But I am a stakeholder and tons of us were negatively affected by this failure and incompetence.
> 
> The employee responsible should have consequences. Lots of grey area to play with between termination and not responsible. A substandard performance review for 2020, and all of its subsequent salary fallout, would be just one possibility.
> 
> ...


What exactly were the comments being made?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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