# Another Wasatch Elk Thread



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

With an other increase of LE elk permits on the Wasatch this year, I'm curious from the Wasatch die hard hunters what they think?

Can the Wasatch elk really handle 1000+
mature bull permits in 2018?

I haven't spent much time on this unit for 2 or 3 years now. 

But I do know, from last springs bear hunting on the unit, elk numbers looked to be like they were back in the 80s.
WAY down .....


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Where are you getting your 1000+ number from? The RAC packet is recommending 890 total LE elk permits for the Wasatch unit over the various seasons. While that may still be too high, it is not 1000+. Unless I'm missing something, and if that's the case, I'm happy to look at your data, Goof. 

Last year there were 830 tags given out for the unit. To see the unit go to 1000+ would be a HUGE increase, and not appropriate. To raise it 60 tags, distributed between 4 seasons, and 5 different draw pools (including the multi-season) probably won't be a noticeable difference. 

I had not been on the unit for a couple years myself, at least not elk hunting. I hunted with a friend this last year on the late hunt that had the tag. We saw 12 different bulls on day one, and 16 different bulls on day two, when he killed his bull. All of these were in the same general area working between a couple drainages. Only a few of the bulls from day one were left overs to day two. So over two days we were able to look over 20+ mature bulls without covering a ton of area. The bull he killed was in the mid-330s, and a neighbor killed another 325-330 class bull in the same place the next day after I told them to go in where we were at. There was a legitimate 380+ inch bull hanging out in there, but he was a bit of a ghost and not in the easiest place ever to access. He never got a shot at that bull, and was totally okay taking the bull he took. It was an awesome hunt. 

It's anecdotal, I know. But I would say my friend would rate that a 5 on the satisfaction scale based upon his experience. Not every hunter had the same experience, but every hunter COULD have had the same experience. It took quite a bit of effort to get to where we were at, and you wouldn't have seen a single one of these bulls from any motorized road on the unit, but it was worth it. 

Anyone see the Wasatch bull at the expo that went north of 400 inches? That thing was a beast!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

TS,
Yes , 890 regular draw permits.
Now add in the Expo, Conservation permits.
Plus CWMU and land owner tags.
Bet you have a number closer to 1000
permits on the Wasatch this year for big bulls. 

And Yes again, the Wasatch is still producing some nice bulls.
But those bulls were born 6 to 10 years ago.

My biggest concern are the LOW cow numbers and recruitment, and killing spikes off the bottom end.

Ya,
I know I've been saying this for years now,
But I still think the Wasatch will tank for a few years at some point.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

goofy elk said:


> TS,
> Yes , 890 regular draw permits.
> Now add in the Expo, Conservation permits.
> Plus CWMU and land owner tags.
> ...


Ok, so looking at total conservation permits possible for the Wasatch Elk:

R657-41 - Conservation and Sportsman Permits
KEY: wildlife, wildlife permits
. . .

R657-41-3. Determining the Number of Conservation and Sportsman Permits.
(1) The number of conservation permits authorized by the Wildlife Board shall be based on:

(a) the species population trend, size, and distribution to protect the long-term health of the population;

(b) the hunting and viewing opportunity for the general public, both short and long term; and

(c) the potential revenue that will support protection and enhancement of the species.

(2) One statewide conservation permit may be authorized for each conservation permit species.

(3) A limited number of area conservation permits may be authorized as follows:

(a) the potential number of multi-year and single year permits available for Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep and desert bighorn sheep, assigned to a hunt area or combination of hunt areas, will be calculated based on the number permits issued the year prior to the permits being awarded using the following rule:

(i) 5-14 public permits = 1 conservation permit, 15-24 public permits = 2 conservation permits, 25-34 public permits = 3 conservation permits, 35-44 permits = 4 conservation permits, 45-54 public permits = 5 conservation permits, 55-64 = 6 conservation permits, 65-74 public permits = 7 conservation permits and >75 public permits = 8 conservation permits.

*(b) the potential number of multi-year and single year permits available for the remaining conservation permit species, for any unit or hunt area, will be calculated based on the number permits issued the year prior to the permits being awarded using the following rule:*

(i) 11-30 public permits = 1 conservation permit, 31-50 public permits = 2 conservation permits, 51-70 public permits = 3 conservation permits, 71-90 permits = 4 conservation permits, 91-110 public permits = 5 conservation permits, 111-130 = 6 conservation permits, 131-150 public permits = 7 conservation permits and *>150 public permits = 8 conservation permits.*

Based on the Conservation Permit reg, there can only be a maximum of 8 conservation Wasatch LE Elk tags. So that brings it to 898 potential tags.

But then there are Expo tags, right? 
R657-55-3. Wildlife Expo Permit Allocation.
(1) The Wildlife Board may allocate wildlife expo permits by May 1 of the year preceding the wildlife exposition.

(2) Wildlife expo permits shall be issued as a single series to one conservation organization.

(3) The number of wildlife expo permits authorized by the Wildlife Board shall be based on:

(a) the species population trend, size, and distribution to protect the long-term health of the population;

(b) the hunting and viewing opportunity for the general public, both short and long term; and

(c) a percentage of the permits available to nonresidents in the annual big game drawings matched by a proportionate number of resident permits.

*(4) Wildlife expo permits, including special nonresident expo permits, shall not exceed 200 total permits.

(5) Wildlife expo permits designated for the exposition each year shall be deducted from the number of public drawing permits.*

Oh, so any Wasatch Elk Expo tags have to come out of the 890 public tag pool. So plus the Conservation permits still, we are sitting on a total of 898 maximum possible Wasatch LE elk tags. Maybe the statewide gov/sportsman tags hunt the Wasatch next fall, so call it 900.

And no, I don't agree with lumping CWMU tags into the pool. CWMU permits are determined primarily based on the # of animals that utilize the property during the hunting season. And frankly, the CWMU program is such that those properties receive more targeted, precise biological study and management than just about any other type of unit in the state.

I don't know what/which landowner associations on the Wasatch that get bull elk tags, or how many there are, but I don't think there are +100 landowner bull tags given out on the Wasatch. But I'm happy to learn and be proven wrong.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well OK thenJC,
Let's not add in CWMUs, landowners or,
I forgor to mention reservation tags.
Leave those out and go with 900.

How will the Wasatch handle 900 LE elk permirs this year then?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Goofy, I think this may be where you and I differ on the counts. I recognize that if there were not cwmus and now we'll add in reservations too I guess, the tag allocations would be increased based on the populations in the new total boundary and counts by the DWR. But since the DWR doesn't include the elk on reservations and allows for an offsetting increase in management objectives based on cwmus (ie, allow the area herd objective to increase sufficient to support the cwmu tags offered). Reservation elk are managed separately, and to the extent they migrate onto the Wasatch it is no more impactful than Wasatch elk migrating into the Manti, 9Mile, etc and vice versa.

If cwmus disappeared, you'd see a reduction in management objectives, and yes fewer tags too. But aren't you a string advocate for increasing the herd management objectives on the Wasatch?

As for landowner associations I admitted not knowing which ones there are getting tags or even how many. I just theorized that it was probably less than 100. But if you know what I can find those numbers I'm happy to look at them.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> How will the Wasatch handle 900 LE elk permirs this year then?


I do not own a crystal ball, but I'd guess about the same as it did last year, and the year before that, and the year before that...

I actually agree with you they are issuing too many tags. But I wanted to make sure your numbers were correct, because 900 and 1100 are vastly different in this discussion, and hyperbole is pretty meaningless. Additionally, your predictions of a crash have failed thus far, and we are beyond the time you predicted many times now. It may still happen, and I'm sure if/when it does, you'll be here saying I told you so. But I guess if you keep saying something is going to happen in the next year or two long enough, maybe you might get lucky and it eventually it might just happen?

There have been changes made the last couple years to cow permits issued on the unit. These are positive. They will be good for the elk herd. Did the changes come too late? I don't know, but I sure hope not. Will they help for the future? Undoubtedly.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I have hunted the Wasatch unit since the 90's, and can say with certain I have noticed a decline in spikes, cows, calves and big bulls. This could be specific to the areas I frequent, but there has definitely been a decrease in elk from what I have experienced. We always used to see more elk than deer, not the case anymore. 15 years ago, you didn't need to get too far off of a road to find them, now it's all backcountry hunting in that unit for us. IMO, the DWR has issued way too many antlerless tags for far too long on that unit.


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## Xbow123 (Mar 7, 2017)

It can handle it if the desire is to turn the wasatch into more of an opportunity hunt than and guaranteed trophy hunt. Although no unit is a guarantee.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

I still spend every year on the Wasatch and can tell you first hand elk herds continue to dwindle year after year. Last year was by far the lowest number of elk I have seen. In my opinion we are right in the middle of seeing the effects from the cow slaughter from a few years ago. 
I still see some good bulls but they are few and far in between. I come across more panicked elk hunters looking to find any elk then anything these days. Pretty sad


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Yep, what Hazmat and Fowlmoth say. .^^^^^^^

Bottom line, 
Those that know what that elk herd looked like from 1998 thru about 2012 understand the problem.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

goofy elk said:


> Bottom line,
> Those that know what that elk herd looked like from 1998 thru about 2012 understand the problem.


Not to derail a thread, but what did the elk herd look like back in 1998 - 2012? I have never hunted the Wasatch, but have heard stories about the amount and quality of bulls there "used" to be.

Did the unit used to continually produce numerous 350+ bulls and nearly everyone that drew tags had chances at bulls? Sorry for the dumb question, just curious as to what the unit used to be like.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well,
In 1998 we guided the 1 non-res guy.
Hunted opening day in the Waters.
Saw several herds 50 to 100 head.
Looked over 47 different bulls.
YES, 47! one day.
And shot number 47 in Fourth Water right at sunset day one.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I’ll make a concession.........the ‘control’ cow tags hurt the Wasatch herd. I agree with Goofy that the lack of cows will have an impact on the number of bulls in the future. For now, the bull hunt is still pretty good and I think that hunters who try can kill a nice mature bull. I hunted the early rifle with a friend last year and we saw 6-10 big bulls every day. That being said, there are now areas on the Wasatch that used to hold good elk numbers where there are seemingly no elk at all. Other places seem the same as always. Undeniable that there are less elk overall.———-SS


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> Undeniable that there are less elk overall.----SS


Then the goal has been accomplished. The Wasatch unit has been over objective for years, and that's why you saw the cow tag numbers continue to go up.

People can disagree with the objectives, but that is why.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

CPAjeff said:


> Not to derail a thread, but what did the elk herd look like back in 1998 - 2012? I have never hunted the Wasatch, but have heard stories about the amount and quality of bulls there "used" to be.
> 
> Did the unit used to continually produce numerous 350+ bulls and nearly everyone that drew tags had chances at bulls? Sorry for the dumb question, just curious as to what the unit used to be like.


Depends on where you were on the Wastach. In 1998 I was hunting American Fork Canyon on a General Season Any Bull tag. We saw bulls, but didn't kill.

Goofy is correct that we will see less bulls in the coming years. We are probably 1-3 years out on that. But the example of seeing 47 bulls in one day is not what the unit was not the end goal. The unit was made LE between 1993 and 1999. Tags were extremely limited in the attempt to grow bulls to the desired managed age. Then the age classes of bulls started to come on line very fast as the glut of younger bulls grew up. Problem was the tags didn't mirror the herd growth. So we got this huge surplus of bulls and very few tags. It was as good or better than most any unit in the State. Then the UDWR was finally able to get more tags pushed thru, but it was too late. There were a ton of old bulls (not all "trophy"). So the increased tags meant guys were shooting the potential giants at 5-6 and then people were shooting the 9-12 yo older bulls that were never big enough when there were fewer tags. Yet today the unit still produces giants. all while giving many hunters the chance to hunt.

So it is possible tags will go down in the next few years. But an interesting side note is the number of bulls migrating into the unit from other areas. That may be propping up the bull numbers.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Thanks for the info!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Look at it this way................ If you kill the herd off, you don't need to "manage" anymore. LOL. 

Hunting within ten years IMO, will be gone for the regular Joe. It will be the rich that will be afield.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I love the Wasatch tag allotment the way it is now. Just wished they broke it down into three sub-units.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> Well,
> In 1998 we guided the 1 non-res guy.
> Hunted opening day in the Waters.
> Saw several herds 50 to 100 head.
> ...


This is like the deer on the Henry Mountains.

It's neat - no one ever gets to hunt it.

Management objectives are what they are. As an opportunist - I like tags. If the animal numbers are sufficient and age objective is met - then the "plan" is working.

The "plan" will be up for debate on if it's the "right" one in 2020. Maybe some elk will still be around ;-)


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

RandomElk16 said:


> As an opportunist - I like tags.


Bingo!!!!!! I agree 100% with this statement. I also believe that the cow take on the Wasatch has gone far beyond the tipping point for providing renewable opportunity. I personally think that the bull tags are still fine. I couldn't care less about seeing 47 bulls in a day if it means that there is 80% less opportunity to hunt them. With a little effort, any hunter on any Wasatch LE hunt will have the opportunity to pursue a mature bull. Hunters who are dead set on inches can also find their prize if they are willing to put forth the effort. If I had to quantify with numbers, I think 300" is attainable with normal effort and 350" Is attainable with extra effort. Those are awesome prospects in my opinion.----SS


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

SS- the only modification I would make is 300 is attainable with normal effort and 330 is attainable with extra effort. 350 is there, and it will take a little luck to go along with the effort. But this unit is not intended to be a premium unit. If someone wants a legit chance at a 350+ bull unit, jump in line with me. 

And even on the premium units where they are specifically managed for larger bulls, a pretty good percentage of hunters shoot bulls under 350. I know it’s too bad people cant road hunt Strawberry Ridge road for 350 bulls in the Waters anymore. But 800 more hunters get to hunt the unit. I’ll take that over making it easy for the guides any day.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

I've never been into hunting elk like some of you fellers/gals are so my perspective and thoughts are highly biased in favor of mule deer. Frankly, I don't mind at all when elk units have drops in elk numbers, more room for the bucks. Utah has always been a deer hunting state and honestly, I don't see it having the room to grow much more elk without infringing on deer. That being said, I too am an opportunist when it comes to tags, and I heartily agree with Random, SS and Vanilla's thoughts on the matter. I sure as heck don't see Utah's "trophy" mentality in managing big game changing in the foreseeable future, so I smile whenever hunters can pull additional tags for whatever they're chasing. I do however, get a kick out of chasing Any Bull elk and sure do admire those of you who can kill those succors with any consistency! ;-)


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Well,
> In 1998 we guided the 1 non-res guy.
> Hunted opening day in the Waters.
> Saw several herds 50 to 100 head.
> ...


I keep thinking back to this comment. In 1998 the was only 1 non-resident elk permit on the Wasatch unit? One! In 2017 there was 68 non-resident permits on the unit. Goof, any recollection how many resident permits that year?

Can you imagine the absolute cluster the elk draw would be if the tag numbers were still at that level?


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

I would agree that the herd numbers are in the toilet. I also am an opportunity guy. I have no problem with the Wasatch being an opportunity unit. I do have a problem with the way they slaughtered the cows. 

The elk plan calls for this many tags. It’s all based on the age of bulls being killed. When the average age is over the objective tags go up. The opposite is also true. I would suggest if you want the age objective changed, get the ball rolling now. 

As is, I think the bull hunting is perfect. Last year there was a 400” bull killed, lots of 330+ bulls and tons of 280+ bulls killed. This is right on par with an opportunity unit in perhaps the highest use area of the state. That’s 900 hunters through the system and we are still killing bulls over the age objective. 

Question for those of you in the know. What types of preliminary data do we have on the radio collar cow study?


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> I keep thinking back to this comment. In 1998 the was only 1 non-resident elk permit on the Wasatch unit? One! In 2017 there was 68 non-resident permits on the unit. Goof, any recollection how many resident permits that year?
> 
> Can you imagine the absolute cluster the elk draw would be if the tag numbers were still at that level?


For years the doom-gloom about Wasatch been forecast by someone. Kinda like the person wearing "The End is Near" sign next to the freeway ramp.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

The crash of the herd population, warranted or not, is not really debatable to those who have hunted it since before it was spike only. 

My thoughts are that if the current herd level is still over population then we need to increase that overall herd objective drastically.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

For years the doom-gloom about Wasatch been forecast by someone. Kinda like the person wearing "The End is Near" sign next to the freeway ramp.[/QUOTE]

Put your 12 plus points or a family members points on the line. You will find out that the doom and gloom talk has a backbone


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

While I will readily concede any statement that things have changed and numbers are down, and not disputing what others observations are regarding the areas they hunt. That said, if I had 12 points I would have no concern whatsoever applying for a Wasatch tag this year. In fact, it was at my urging my close friend applied for the late tag last year, and so I guess I’ve alreay done what you suggested. It worked out for him. I’d be totally fine burning 12 points for the experience he got last year. I’m confident we could replicate that experience this year again. 

Now I’m not going to burn my 20 points there. But that’s another story all together.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> It worked out for him.


Pics or it didn't happen.


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## ISHY (Dec 4, 2015)

Well, I just dropped 16 points for an archery tag! Expectations have driven me crazy every winter eyeing better units, inches of antler, success rates, etc...I just want to go have a great hunt no minimum score required. I was able to share points with a mentor that wouldn't get a le tag otherwise being 60+ year old. Will we tag a 350 bull, see 47 bulls a day...no but we are going to go have hopefully the best hunt of our lives!


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

ISHY said:


> Will we tag a 350 bull, see 47 bulls a day...no but we are going to go have hopefully the best hunt of our lives!


You never know. Thats why hunting is so much fun.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Ok guys, I just went out on the Wasatch West unit tonight and I didn't see a single elk. Yep they must be extinct. Of course, I didn't go where i normally would expect to see elk there either but that is beside the point. 

But man, the deer were looking pretty good, with lots of fresh green growth popping up for them. Must have seen 500-600 deer in 1 ½ hours tonight, lots of last year's fawns and all looking chubby still.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

TS
Back in the late90s
The Wasatch was much smaller units
Some were still GS in the North
Avintaquin was a different unit.

The Diamond Fork was a small unit
15 Res permits that year.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

ISHY, REALLY?
16 points on the Wasatch archery elk?

I like to see elk when I hunt.
Much better chocies to be had.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

goofy elk said:


> ISHY, REALLY?
> 16 points on the Wasatch archery elk?
> 
> I like to see elk when I hunt.
> Much better chocies to be had.


He split em with someone though which makes him a knight of elk hunting. Pretty dang cool thing to do.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Goof, you really can’t find elk on the Wasatch? Or was that hyperbole?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Ok had a fun morning with the kids on the Wasatch West area more where I usually find elk. Those two draws I usually find elk sure enough both had elk. A handful of bulls in the one and ~20 cows in the other.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

3arabains
16÷2=8
Could have drawn either Bookcliff units.
Or
Nebo
Manti
Fishlake, all better IMO.

TS, hyperbole.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> 3arabains
> 16÷2=8
> Could have drawn either Bookcliff units.
> Or
> ...


I dunno.. I am the guy that says pick the unit you can hunt the most days on and have realistic access for yourself. Maybe with him and his 60+ year old mentor the Wasatch fit the bill?

Ishy, you should have a great time! Don't let people lie to ya. A 300"+ bull shared with a mentor would be a great time and is doable on the Wasatch. I hope you guys double down with YOUR bull of a lifetime. Go for that "10" score.


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## ISHY (Dec 4, 2015)

Don't worry about me fellas, I am totally comfortable with my choice and know what is important to me. Along with a great mentor, my Dad is 77 and each year it looks like it will be harder and harder for him to be with us in camp for any length of time. Having people that have meant so much to my life outdoors is something that is impossible to quantify. I lost a son 7 years ago to Epilepsy, so now being in the woods with those I love blows everything else out of the water. I can't explain how it helps the hole I have in my life, it helps me beyond words.
Goofy I am a NR so Manti and Nebo were both still not as sure to draw as a NR than Wasatch. Bookcliffs are even longer wait, and roadless only has 1 NR tag. Trust me, I have done way too much homework on every unit in the state over about the last 8 years. The other big pull was having friends hunt wasatch the last two years. I have hunted Wasatch, Nebo, and Manti but having that recent intel weighs more to me. So here we go!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

That makes sense.
Didn't realize you were a NR.
Good luck.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Sounds like the Satch was back this year. Our old friend berry did well. Heard good reports from others too.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> Sounds like the Satch was back this year. Our old friend berry did well. Heard good reports from others too.


A friends brother killed a 383 bull during early rifle DIY. Just a huge bull!!

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## Pinetree (Sep 25, 2012)

Here’s my late Wasatch Bull from last year. 355”, 12 years of applying and shot him 2 hours into the hunt opening morning. With that being said, the elk count is definitely down from years past, but they still hangout in the same areas, that few want to go to.


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