# HB 206 “pay to play”



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

https://le.utah.gov/~2020/bills/static/HB0206.html

This bill will create a pay to play criminal justice system here in Utah. Commit a misdemeanor and you'll receive a ticket instead of going to jail if this bill passes. No need to make a court appearance either. Just call the court clerk and they will refer to the uniform fine schedule and tell you how much to pay. If this bill passes police officers will catch criminals like shoplifters thieves and prostitutes issue them a ticket then slap them on the butt and tell them get back out there you've got some money to make to pay this ticket.

It's crazy this type of legislation is a favorite issue for Democrats. Rep Moss UT wants to improve public safty by making it illegal to touch your cell phone while driving. And save a life with a "red flag law" but supports stuff like the Rio Grande situation or other soft on crime initiatives. Dems will erode public safty then try to tie the hands of the non criminal public to protect themselves. (95% of us) They will fight tooth and nail to save the life of a child rapist murderer but allocate public funding for free abortions. Great! They are environmentally concerned. But it won't matter how clean the air is if we are economically devastated and our society has turned into something like Sodom.

Anyone paying attention to the criminal justice reform going on in New York New Jersey or New Mexico Kentucky or California? Scary thing is that most folks are fatigued on the issue and have quit paying attention and this type of reform has traction here in Utah.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)




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## johnrr65 (Nov 7, 2019)

Iron Bear said:


>


+1


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Its all good as long as you have a "Harry Callahan" on the streets.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

This won't change anything about the "pay to play" part of the criminal justice system. It doesn't create new fines or fees, it actually makes people pay LESS because they are not posting bail or paying a bondsmen. It also doesn't make a defendant free from showing up to court. This bill does not change the list of mandatory appearance offenses. Those are mostly traffic and are already "bailable" offenses, meaning they don't have to appear and may simply pay the recommended fine under the Uniform Bail Schedule.

Here is a link for you if anyone wants to see what that means: 
https://www.utcourts.gov/resources/rules/ucja/append/c_fineba/FineBail_Schedule.pdf

And, unfortunately, this is not a democrat issue in Utah. The worst things that have ever happened to our criminal justice system, and the degradation of it that we are seeing, stem from the Justice Reinvestment Initiative (JRI) and that was driven by Republicans, including the governor's office and various agencies that are led by his appointees. I'd love to pin the tail on the donkey on this one too, but it just doesn't work that way here in Utah on this stuff.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Seeing is believing.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Iron Bear said:


> Seeing is believing.


Pretty appalling, huh? There has been some really bad public policy taking place on these issues the last several years, in my opinion. But to be clear, it isn't the democrats causing it here in Utah. We live in weird times, that's for sure!


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I’m not aware of any republicans carrying this flag. Care to name any? I can name several dems in Utah pushing this crap. I do know republicans like Todd Weiler (wants to be a district court judge) or Lyle Hillyard (defense attorney) willing to support this kind of stuff but they have alterior motives at play.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Refer to my post above about JRI. 

And remember, Utah has a super majority in the legislature. Democrats can't force anything down our throats in legislation in this state.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

100% correct that if anything passes the legislators of Utah it is the Republicans fault.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Iron Bear said:


> Seeing is believing.


Since that started happening in 2014/2015, who are you blaming for that legislation?


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

The video posted was in Salt Lake. salt lake 3rd District has had a "least restrictive means possible" approach to crime for over two decades now. It costs taxpayers of Salt Lake County over $13 million to fund this department that assess defendants then determines that they may be eligible for unsecured release from jail. ( pinky promise to appear in court). Funding for this program would have never been allocated by conservatives. It's dems like Caroon that provided the fundind in Salt Lake. And now there's a push to export the Salt Lake style system statewide. And naturally at first republican leadership was resistant to funding programs like this. That sentiment has been eroding. Why preserve $10 million in user payer funding. When my department can get 100s of millions to do the job publicly. So enter John Arnold and his wife. Well know liberals. Maybe George Soros rings a bell? He's poured hundreds of millions to help reform criminal justice in this way. Back to John Arnold the Enron billionaire who avoided prosecution. Well he has started a foundation to save the world. The Arnold foundation created an algorithm to tell judges about ones risk for failure to appear. He offered it to any takers for free. A true Trojan horse. So that took care of the we can't get funding for this program issue. It should be noted that Arnold is selling all the data collected from the PSA assessments to Luminosity. Probably to monetize it at a later date. And has divested the PSA to be a for profit organization. Arnold ventures.

https://craftmediabucket.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/Public-Safety-Assessment-101_190319_140124.pdf

But it will be free for Utah so long as they stay in compliance with the original agreement with the Arnold Foundation.

For the laymenthe PSA is basically a formula that will produce a "credit score" for defendants. Score high enough get a pinky promise to appear in court. Score low enough and you may have to sit in jail until you care is over. In an attempt to not be bias the Arnold PSA ignores factors like residency or employment status or drug use family connections or cases you may have against you that you haven't been convicted for yet. So basically a blind eye.

HB 206 is an attempt to export Salt Lake style pretrial justice statewide. And it's Dems pushing it Republicans May very well support it but this stuff comes squarely from liberal socialist.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Iron Bear said:


> https://le.utah.gov/~2020/bills/static/HB0206.html
> 
> This bill will create a pay to play criminal justice system here in Utah. Commit a misdemeanor and you'll receive a ticket instead of going to jail if this bill passes. No need to make a court appearance either. Just call the court clerk and they will refer to the uniform fine schedule and tell you how much to pay.


I was scratching my head, wondering what this had to do with the outdoors, and then I realized that certain prominent outfitters could just prepay their fines when they were illicitly pursuing, say, a trophy ram or an AI buck and not go through the messiness of a lot of publicity.

The only problem I see is that the SE regional office janitor wouldn't know what was on the fine schedule.

Thanks for posting this up.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Or you will catch someone stealing your lawnmower call the cops they will show up a give the guy a ticket. I’m sure he will pay right away. It won’t turn into a warrant and become a burden not only for the law abiding taxpayer but for the poor criminal that the justice system was trying to give a break too. ^^^Sarcasm. These people are often on a path of destruction and need intervention not a long leash. All to often they use the long leash as a noose. And everyone is worse off. Taxpayers criminals law enforcement.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> This won't change anything about the "pay to play" part of the criminal justice system. It doesn't create new fines or fees, it actually makes people pay LESS because they are not posting bail or paying a bondsmen. It also doesn't make a defendant free from showing up to court. This bill does not change the list of mandatory appearance offenses. Those are mostly traffic and are already "bailable" offenses, meaning they don't have to appear and may simply pay the recommended fine under the Uniform Bail Schedule.
> 
> Here is a link for you if anyone wants to see what that means:
> https://www.utcourts.gov/resources/rules/ucja/append/c_fineba/FineBail_Schedule.pdf
> ...


Save money? Not paying bondsman? Is that a just a jab or do really believe that? Save who money? Defendants rarely pay their own bail. Unsecured release means upwards of 80% failure to appear. So will you advocate for electronic monitoring instead? Ever look into the costs of those ankle monitors? They ain't cheap and after your done with your case the cost way is more than 10% of ones bail unless the judge was trampling on your constitutional right for affordable bail. Excessive bail is unconstitutional but judges in Utah violate that clause habitually daily. It's been an intoxicant for several in the bond industry that now will advocate for government funded pretrial release as long as judges keep offering high bail. I'd would advocate for $500 bail acrossed the board for everyone before we adopted SL style pretrial statewide. I'm confident with the 100,000 + arrests per year in Utah the bail industry would actually get 5X the revenue they currently share at ZERO cost to the taxpayer.

I think you need to re-examine whether or not you think this won't change mandatory appearance. Actually this bill ties the hands of law enforcement taking away the discretion on almost all misdemeanors. Only one safe will be DUI certain assaults and Domestic Violence cases. This is a revenue producing law. That's why the Republicans may consider this kind of crap.

Got to agree JRI is a joke. But again incouraged by liberals. I was at the capitol and met with several groups outside of Utah to help with the issue. The capitol was literally crawling with them. PEW NCJA Libertas Herritage and several others. Legislators like Greg Hugh's were given the carrot of the prison move where he made millions. Weird he owned land out where the new prison is going.

I've met with dozens of legislators on these matters. I still haven't found a conservative republican that will defend these liberal criminal justice reforms on their own merit. The courts and others want this kind of reform and the courts have lots of pull with the gov office and the legislator as you can imagine.

This reform is absolutely crap and it smells like it too. Advocates for this have pulled every punch and used every dirty trick possible to get this far down the road. It really reminds me of what happened in wildlife managent back in the 80s and 90s. And sadly most citizens won't know what they lost and will be powerless to gain it back.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> Uniform Bail Schedule.
> 
> Here is a link for you if anyone wants to see what that means:
> https://www.utcourts.gov/resources/rules/ucja/append/c_fineba/FineBail_Schedule.pdf


Here's the evolution on that. It was originally the uniform BAIL schedule then about 6-8 years ago the AOC just added /fine to its name. I didn't think much of it. Why a uniform bail schedule? To give judges guidelines to help them avoid excessive bail. And more importantly give the sherif (jail) the ability to set bail and get a defendant on their way. Especiallly when the courts are closed like in the middle of the night or on weekends. Bail commissioners. HB 206 seeks to remove the word bail from the name and it will be the uniform fine schedule only. A switch, now a court clerk will be able to tell someone over the phone what their fine is and they can even pay over the phone with a card. Slick little revenue stream there. HB 206 seeks to eliminate bail commissioners tieing the hands of sheriffs. They have to wait for the judge to make a decision first.

Funny this all goes back to money.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Sorry IB, but you’re wrong on that one. It wasn’t in the last 10 years that you could pay bail on non-mandatory appearance offenses and be done. I did it 3 days after I got my driver license and that was a LONG time ago. 

And if I’m wrong about this changing the mandatory appearance list, show me which line in the bill says that. I’m willing to take a look if I missed where the bill changes what offenses are considered mandatory appearance and what are not. 

I know why this is troublesome to you, and I get it. It’s totally understandable. I have some issues with it myself. But many of the things you’ve listed in this thread simply aren’t true. And some of it is speculative at best. 

One thing you’re correct about is turning this into SL County type system state wide. Thank your republican appointee CCJJ, Sentencing Commission, and far right wing republican (libertarian) legislators for making that dream come true. Our system had become a bit of a mess. It’s going to take a while for that pendulum to swing back to a reasonable place, I’m afraid.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

IB, stop blaming the evil Dems for everything you feel is wrong in the world and especially what you feel may be wrong in Utah. That is just a simple minded rationalization for a simple minded view of the real world. "oh, my, it must be the Dems, oh woe is me"...my gosh, I even saw a "Sodom" reference in one of your rants here.

Hate based rational never produces sound reasoning!


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Just trying to warn. 

Ignorance is truly bliss.

Over and out.


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## olibooger (Feb 13, 2019)

I appreciate this
Thanks


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Well this bill is still alive and well. It has passed house committee and was passed by the house floor yesterday afternoon.

Who's on board in Utah government. 
Goveners office, Courts/judges, prosecutors, law enforcement, Sheriffs assoc, county commissioners, Utah House of Representatives.

Don't take my word for it read the bill for yourself.

https://le.utah.gov/~2020/bills/static/HB0206.html

Do a google search "pretrial release reforms" read the news from other states that have done this before us.

https://safercommunities.quorum.us/campaign/24852/

If you agree this HB206 shouldn't pass please contact your state senator and let them know.

Thanks for your attention


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I know some of you like stuff from academia vs common sense. wink &#128521;

Here's a recent paper released by some U of U professors on the subject.

https://attheu.utah.edu/facultystaff/bail-reform/

And for those who like video.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

When it comes to changes to our criminal justice system, this one is not at the top of my list. There are multiple other things that have already happened and been implemented the last few years that have and will continue to impact public safety way worse than this will. 

Welcome to the new “get soft on crime” era of criminal justice. The pendulum swings back and forth. We are in a poor swing right now. It’s the republicans that keep electing libertarians in our state with an “R” next to their name causing this. (Sorry to get political, but that’s where we are at.)


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

^^^^^

Care to honestly share what’s in this bill for prosecutors? After all Rep Pitcher is the sponsor a prosecutor. 

Or is this an attempt to improve the criminal justice system for the citizens of Utah. 

Can you defend this bill other than to try and minimize my concerns and direct blame on other things? Pendulums and what not. Or will you let these good folks here know this is bad for citizens. 

Tell us of the merits to catch and release. Tell us how the Salt Lake 3rd District pretrial program is a good model for the entire state.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I never said I supported the bill. Just that on the spectrum of things that have happened and are happening that are going to negatively impact public safety, this one is down the list a ways. 

As you know, powerful forces are attacking cash bail all across the country. It’s part of a major push to overhaul the entire system and keep people out of jail and prison. And the most powerful forces behind it are not liberals, much to most people’s surprise. The Koch Foundation has put hundreds of millions of dollars into this one across the country. It’s tough to combat that.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Probably the biggest factor that is preventing opposition to these kind of reforms. Facebook has banned 3 pages dedicated to informing about HB206 and has probably banned 100s of pages from other states about the subject. The media in Utah refuses to cover it. Print Radio or TV. Dozens of emails to every news outlet one can think of. The only ones giving any consideration are fringe podcast types and NPR who likes to give this stuff a positive spin. I hate to be a conspiracy theorist but if it walks like a duck. Geez 

Fortunately we are kept abreast of important legislation in Utah like teens in tanning beds and making sure nobody hold their phone while driving. Or keeping us informed about the latest developments in transgender teen legislation. Great! We now know you can soon drive a golf cart on the street. Thanks Utah media for keeping us informed about the real important stuff.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Lol

https://kutv.com/news/local/bill-me...sgender-procedures-for-minors-will-be-studied


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

https://kutv.com/news/utah-legislat...r-wants-more-options-for-setting-bail-in-utah

Bravo to channel 2 news for reporting on a much needed subject.

A couple responses to the article.

Hardly any defendants self bail. So it's not a matter of rich get out poor stay in. If you have burnt all your bridges your likely to sit in jail. Still the judge has and always has had the ability to release you with a promise to appear. Especially if you weren't a risk, indigent ect. No need for such radical reform that promises to degrade public safety just to help out poor (low income) nonviolent defendants. Bail doesn't keep them behind bars judges do.

Saving tax payers money by freeing up beds? As if we as the taxpayer were billed per bed. That's not how it works. If you have 1000 inmates that cost $100 per day to house and you let 500 go. It now will cost $200 a day to house an inmate. Jails are fixed costs. They don't turn the lights off or heat. They don't lay off staff or pay less insurance. The bond payments stay the same for the building. The still pay pensions. They might save a few dollars in less meals served and less laundry but the savings are minimal at best. And as the article points out. Arrest and re arrest cost local governments the most.

County pretrial release programs have been promised to be paid for through grants (tax dollars). That's if they are awarded supporters of this bill want the programs before the money is in the bank. The thing about grants is they eventually run out and then the cost of the program becomes someone else's burden.

I'm not sure if any of you have contacted your senator but good job if you have. It seems some Senators are willing to give pause to this bill to study the issue further and not make the mistakes so many other states and counties acrossed the country have made.

Thanks for your interest.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Iron Bear said:


> https://le.utah.gov/~2020/bills/static/HB0206.html
> 
> This bill will create a pay to play criminal justice system here in Utah. *Commit a misdemeanor and you'll receive a ticket instead of going to jail* if this bill passes. No need to make a court appearance either. Just call the court clerk and they will refer to the uniform fine schedule and tell you how much to pay. If this bill passes police officers will catch criminals like shoplifters thieves and prostitutes issue them a ticket then slap them on the butt and tell them get back out there you've got some money to make to pay this ticket.


How did I miss this thread, considering this was posted a couple months ago. This smacks of californicatioin, really bad. Lowering the bar on what will take you to jail is extraordinarily bad. What this really smacks of, is a bill that is similar to Proposition 47 in California. What that did, was lower the bar on property crimes. Anything below 950 dollars was considered a misdemeanor instead of a felony. So, now in California, all the dirtbags know to keep their thievery to below a 950 dollar value, and they'll walk away scott free.

If what your posting is true, then it's in the same vain as California's prop 47 from the sounds of it.

NO thanks. If you read the comment section on KSL on various articles, some folks have already started to call Utah "East California". I cannot begin to describe how much that thought is distressing, for lack of a better word.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Inspite of recent warnings from Idaho and Missouri who have already implemented very similar reforms and are in the process of repealing them. 

HB 206 passed the senate and will most defiantly be signed by the governor.

Salt Lake catch and release style justice will be exported statewide. Taxpayers will bear the expense of pretrial release and public safty will suffer as a result. 

Utah is a right to bail state and nothing has been changed about that in the states constitution. This new lawl will circumvent a number of defendants right to bail and lawsuits will follow. Again at the taxpayers expense. 

Shame on Utah’s criminal justice system for falling for a pack of lies and ignoring common knowledge. 

It’s not likely government will do a better job at the task at hand than a private industry has done for 2 centuries.


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