# DWR Mismanagement



## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

This is not a bash on DWR and their management of wildlife, law enforcement, and public programs. I feel DWR and their staff largely do an incredible job; however they are a government entity and have mismanaged several items.

GS Elk Tags - Due COVID decision made to issue via online sales only. Why? License dealers are open and I can purchase a license but not a tag due COVID? Online system freezes and I waited months for tag in mail and finally had to get reprint. 

Lee Kay - Public shooting areas need to be open and accessible. If the current model of management can not guarantee access with open hours and staffing then a private contractor should manage the facility. 

Troy Rushton


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I thought I heard Lee Kay was open again?


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

If golf courses are open and Lee Kay is closed we need to throw a fit.


----------



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Troy, the GS elk tag fiasco was just a ploy to turn it in to a application process in order to charge us all $10 an application next year.
Feel free to call me out on it next year if I am wrong.
And yes, I am proud to wear my tinfoil hat.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I read the other day that Lee Kay was open on a limited basis depending on when someone is there.

But it appeared that there were some flexible hours that they were open.


----------



## Ray (May 10, 2018)

They were open a few weeks ago when I took my son for his field day


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Lee Kay IS open. I was out there last Friday and the rifle range is open. All the amenities are open out there. 


As far as the GS Elk tags.... Yes, it was very frustrating the way it was handled. I had to drive to the division office in order to get my Elk permit because "it was in a group of permits that was lost". After being on hold 45 minutes I had a live person and they mailed my permit to me. When I received it, it was the incorrect hunt date. I had to show my email of the permit I purchased (from the conformation email) in order to get the correct season date. That's why I had to drive to the office. 


I don't care if they charge me $10 for an app fee if they add the GS Elk tags to the Bucks & Bulls LE, OIL application period. At least you'd have longer than 6 minutes to apply for a tag before getting kicked out and having to wait another hour or longer to get back to the app process.


----------



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Actually the GS elk draw system didn't crash. It was just simply over run by a huge, unexpected number of buyers. I guarantee you that the wildlife people are working hard to solve these problems, but short of purchasing a huge and very expensive computer system(or time) that is capable of handling the sudden massive onslaught of inquires, you are going to see this happen again. 
The cost of cutting your wait time to buy a license, say down to ten minutes, would be millions of dollars...


----------



## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

BPturkeys said:


> Actually the GS elk draw system didn't crash. It was just simply over run by a huge, unexpected number of buyers. I guarantee you that the wildlife people are working hard to solve these problems, but short of purchasing a huge and very expensive computer system(or time) that is capable of handling the sudden massive onslaught of inquires, you are going to see this happen again.
> The cost of cutting your wait time to buy a license, say down to ten minutes, would be millions of dollars...


This simply isn't true, they don't need to purchase any hardware at all. They just need to migrate the software to a modern cloud environment such as AWS, Google Cloud or Azure. If they build the software so it scales horizontally, they can spin up hundreds of servers an hour before they go on sale. As the spike in traffic drops throughout the day, start spinning them down. It is really easy to do and doesn't cost that much. You only pay for the computing power for that day for a predictable pike in traffic like this. Another option is to deploy the services to AWS Lambda that scales automatically without intervention.
Government is always way behind the curve technologically.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

brisket said:


> ...They just need to migrate the software to a modern cloud environment such as AWS, Google Cloud or Azure. If they build the software so it scales horizontally, they can spin up hundreds of servers an hour before they go on sale. ...
> Government is always way behind the curve technologically.


well, yes and no. One thing too many people, especially salesmen, forget is regulatory requirements. That's where government has problems. Simply moving data over to a cloud environment sounds easy -- but when you throw regulatory requirements in the mix, it turns complicated and expensive!

As for government being behind the curve on technology, I just don't buy it. They may be slower to adopt - but even that is only skin deep. When you start talking about security, the private sector is often times too willing to jump ahead and use systems that have not been hardened. The government's fault is the other direction. They convolute and create unrealistic requirements to attempt to keep things secure, and in the end it causes them to bog down and fall behind in the name of keeping our data secure. In the end, that pathway fails too.


----------



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

The Lee Kay shotgun range was only open two days a week during the summer. I wonder if we paid them for a 40hr work week?


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Rifle range at Lee Kay must have just opened back up in the last couple weeks. It was not open the second week of September, I can confirm. 

I do think there are missteps in the DWR. I don't think any of the employees are doing anything intentionally bad, but like any other governmental organization, the red tape makes it difficult (if not impossible) to stay on the cutting edge. And like PBH illustrated, if they cut the tape and data security or other issues happened, we'd all cry foul that the government was being cavalier with our private personal information. It's a bit of a catch 22 in that respect. 

And yes, I fully expect people to push what happened this year into a draw only for the 30,000 general season elk tags. I sure hope that doesn't happen!


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

BPturkeys said:


> Actually the GS elk draw system didn't crash. It was just simply over run by a huge, unexpected number of buyers. I guarantee you that the wildlife people are working hard to solve these problems, but short of purchasing a huge and very expensive computer system(or time) that is capable of handling the sudden massive onslaught of inquires, you are going to see this happen again.
> The cost of cutting your wait time to buy a license, say down to ten minutes, would be millions of dollars...


Nope. I can tell you a single call to the Governor's administrative assistant suddenly got the system working more efficiently within minutes. The numbers weren't unprecedented or unmanageable. The system didn't work properly and was mismanaged by DWR. And I know someone with call logs who can name a top employee whose remarks indicate to me they were likely uninterested in solving it in a timely manner, that is without the Governor's office intervention.

Anyone who was online that morning can point to a moment when the system suddenly started working more effectively. That had nothing to do with the number of people in line. It had to do with human error and incompetence.

*PS...the DWR would be wise to reconsider roles after this fiasco. A new position is likely needed for a project manager with technology skills and some customer service background. As of right now the person in question was not the right one nor does a graduate degree in wildlife management prepare them to lead such work. Their customer service response sucked.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> Nope. I can tell you a single call to the Governor's administrative assistant suddenly got the system working more efficiently within minutes.


She must have had an "Easy" button.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Nope. But there was an obvious disinterest by said employee and having the Governor's office intervene makes things move. She got the state's IT department immediately involved. After that I have no clue what happened. But from the call logs the DWR employee actually made it clear he thought system was working just fine before then and had no interest in addressing the numerous problems.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

lol


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

backcountry, c'mon man...spill the beans! Let's hear all about this. If you have seen call logs, etc., then clearly a GRAMA request was placed and information has been provided, meaning it's public information. Let's hear it! 

And the general elk fiasco was definitely a misstep and a measure of incompetence. There was no reason for it to happen, they could/should have expected a high volume and been prepared. At one point it told me I was over 300,000th in line. If every person in line had 5 devices in the queue, I would not have been 300,000th in line. It was simply a bad system, and there is no excuse for it to happen like that when you see it coming. 

Which leads me to think that the "tin foil hat" comment made earlier about it potentially being purposeful is not so wild of a comment after all.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I can go back and look but I believe I had been in the queue for roughly 2.5 hours as I had forgotten about the date until stumbling into the thread here. My friend was one of the people who was able to sign in 15+ minutes earlier than was claimed by their notifications. After I started jumping ahead of them in the queue they started making phone calls. After the DWR employee washed their hands of the responsibility and told them to call the state my friend did exactly that and rang the Governor's office. The administrative assistant was amazing and made it clear they cared and would get their team on it. Within 10-15 minutes (hence "minutes" after waiting hours) the queue suddenly starting moving rapidly. No longer were we jumping around and losing ground erratically but instead we both moved from 100k or higher to within 10,000 rapidly. I somehow still managed to get to the actual purchasing faster despite her earlier admittance into the queue.

The queue jumping and backsliding, the failed gate keeping at the beginning and the crazy misrepresentation of actual people in line was a blatant failure on the DWRs part. That was incompetence. That doesn't represent unprecedented demand but a system that wasn't tested appropriately. Not to mention there were thousands of tags left for hours to days after the initial fiasco that morning.

I don't know what the Governor's office (IT department) did but the change was almost immediate and suddenly presented a functioning system. 

The DWR and said employee earned the criticism from that experience. That should have never have happened in the first place but their remarks on the phone were unprofessional and not what is expected from a public servant.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Call logs = friend taking explicit, detailed notes (former HR employee) because the DWR employee was being that incompetent and unprofessional. Talked to them after it happened and saw the quotations myself. Said friend also had every hunting buddy they had call the DWR employee and Governor's office immediately after the experience.

It only takes so many dissatisfied calls before a lower level front desk employee of any company will hand out the direct number to the manager in charge when the problem isn't being taken seriously.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry said:


> I don't know what the Governor's office (IT department) did but the change was almost immediate and suddenly presented a functioning system.


being in the profession, I know exactly what they did: pressed the Easy button.

We do it all the time. It's amazing how well it works, and how happy it makes end-users.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I don't care what the cost is to upgrade the system. 1M, 2M it doesn't matter. Simply,it needs to be done! They sure the he!! aren't using the millions they get now to place back into the wildlife.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

PBH said:


> backcountry said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know what the Governor's office (IT department) did but the change was almost immediate and suddenly presented a functioning system.
> ...


I must be missing an inside reference beyond Staples. It's fair of me to admit I don't always pick up humor online. Out of the loop on this one.

Also fair to say the DWRs choices that day impacted a lot of people. We had a critical care taking task that day which their mistakes added stress to. But more importantly, the number of man hours lost by hunters spending time watching the dysfunctional queue is no joke. That experience will sit with stakeholders for a while.

Seeing the employees actual remarks in the phone call was salt on the wound. Mistakes happen but caring and accountability go a long way in fixing things with clients and citizens. But I also know a classic graduate degree in wildlife management doesn't prepare employees for unique projects like this hence my recommendation earlier.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

What were the employee remarks? I've heard you reference them before today, and obviously here in this thread. I'd love to hear what they were.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Stayed away from direct quotes then and now in case employee was also note taking names from calls. My friend doesn't have an online presence and don't want to cause any awkwardness that can be traced back to them.

But the general gestalt was there wasn't an issue in how it was functioning and they were washing their hands of the issue. That was clearly false. Always shocked when people behave like that yet encourage you to talk to superiors. Everything in my employment training was to reflect a person's concerns and let them know you would do what was in your means. Deflecting is at best counter productive.

I'm guessing someone had been working on it behind the scenes all along despite the remarks. But having made errors at a much smaller scale I also know how someone escalating it to the highest level can suddenly open up resources and energize what was previously a lackluster response. From the little I know about technology I know you probably can't solve software glitches (queue irregularities?) in minutes but some of the issues sound like poor planning that extra state resources (dedicated vs shared bandwidth ?) could help. Could have been coincidence and could be wrong but the change was stark and that was also when notes started appearing on the website that acknowledged the problems and were actually a little contrite. 

Something shifted in tone and ownership around that time no matter what was happening with tech behind the scenes.


----------



## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

OriginalOscar said:


> Lee Kay - Public shooting areas need to be open and accessible. If the current model of management can not guarantee access with open hours and staffing then a private contractor should manage the facility.
> 
> Troy Rushton


To clarify. Lee Kay hours Thursday 3pm-8pm, Friday 10am-1pm, Saturday 9am-4pm. Open 15 hours per week is laughable.

Contract to private entity.


----------



## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

anyone know if they are sighting in rifles this year ?...................... NEVER mind they ARE .


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> I don't care what the cost is to upgrade the system. 1M, 2M it doesn't matter. Simply,it needs to be done! They sure the he!! aren't using the millions they get now to place back into the wildlife.


Most big companies dont use their own systems anymore... you just rent space on a amazon AWS server. Need more power due to load? You just login and its a simple matter to add more virtual processing power. With the dwr, it should be SIMPLE to have a their system setup on a AWS server, then just peg the processing power for the few weeks of the draw, then drop it down after to the cheap plan.

We do AWS servers with 100's of billions of records and if you aren't doing crazy table joins, its runs pretty **** quick.

-DallanC


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Most big companies dont use their own systems anymore... you just rent space on a amazon AWS server. Need more power due to load? You just login and its a simple matter to add more virtual processing power. With the dwr, it should be SIMPLE to have a their system setup on a AWS server, then just peg the processing power for the few weeks of the draw, then drop it down after to the cheap plan.
> 
> We do AWS servers with 100's of billions of records and if you aren't doing crazy table joins, its runs pretty **** quick.
> 
> -DallanC


I like the idea you have of "renting" it for a short time! Guess we can only wait and see come next year.


----------

