# Crossbow Question



## Broadside_Shot (Feb 22, 2010)

If a crossbow has recurve limbs is it considered traditional equipment? And can you enter a crossbow kill in the Pope and Young record books?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

No and No


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## outdoorser (Jan 14, 2013)

Critter's right and right.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Nope on that one Jerry. But it brings up some interesting thoughts. Without getting into the whole I love Crossbows/I hate crossbows debate I'll give a few thoughts.

Crossbows are the fastest growing segment in the archery community. Ten years ago only three states allowed crossbow use during the archery hunt. Right now there are twenty four, with a few more looking at their inclusion for this season. I'd bet that there are between twenty six and twenty eight states that allow them in the general archery season before the end of the year.

These are big states----with more archery hunters than Utah has total hunters. Crossbows are becoming very popular in many of these states.

None of these states are looking repeal crossbow use, in fact it seems to be growing. I'd bet that within the next ten years crossbows will be common and the arguments will be old history-----Kind of like stick bows and compound bows.

What will that mean for Pope and Young? Who knows? Right now they are rabid crossbow haters. But as populations change and the norm changes they will have to either change along with them or face the fact that with the growing number of crossbow users they going to lose some of their relevance. 

I along with most of the people who shoot crossbows, consider crossbows archery equipment. I think that everyone would like some recognition if they shot a truly trophy class animal----just being able to say it scored Whatever in P&Y or B&C---but with an organization the includes crossbows.

If it's not P&Y it will be another organization. And in the long run I think P&Y will lose out on this.

Just my opinion.


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## outdoorser (Jan 14, 2013)

Will crossbows ever become legal to hunt big game with in Utah?


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

outdoorser said:


> Will crossbows ever become legal to hunt big game with in Utah?


not for a while...they are too effective...Utah doesn't exactly have a surplus of deer...


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## ram2h2o (Sep 11, 2007)

If you have a physical handicap or disability that prevents you from using a longbow or compound bow you can get a COR permit to use a crossbow in Utah. You have to have a physicans letter stating that you are unable to use a regular bow. As stated earlier, many states now allow crossbow use with a special licence. Now hunt in here in Utah with a Crossbow permit,also back in Louisiana and Mississippi for Whitetails and Hogs.


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## Broadside_Shot (Feb 22, 2010)

I am just having a hard time buying into the crossbow during archery season. I know it has limbs (recurve or compound) and shoots an arrow/bolt but I just do think they are the same as a normal bow. I know technology has made normal bows more efficient and faster but you still have to draw them at the moment of truth which is a major factor in bowhunting.

I also have compared this issue with Baseball and the technology that manufacturors have come up with in the bats that are being used. Baseball is going back to the more traditional ways. My sons is 13 and his bat that he "has" to use is very similiar to the one I used in High School. Leagues are requiring this change because technology has changed what baseball should be.

I think that the crossbow will change what Archery should be. I come from the school of hunting and all the aspects that go with it more so than increasing harvest rate with less effort. I am getting older and it is harder for me to hunt with a bow but I don't think we need to change what bowhunting is. Get close and test your hunting abilities.

My uncle who no longer can use a bow got a permit for a crossbow. He would perfer to use a regular bow not because it is more efficient and better but he values the traditions that archery is. He has told me that he doesn't have to practice much anymore and he can still compete with me at 60 yards.

Just my thoughts, everyone has there own reasons why they hunt so who am I to tell them how to do it.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Jerry,
You know I respect the heck out of your opinion. But I still have to disagree. You talk about stepping back from technology. Does that mean that you don't want ANY more advances in compound bows or that technology? How about taking the training wheels off of compound bows and pushing everyone to stick bows. That is something that I could see a rational for.
From my point of view there just isn't that much difference between compound bows and crossbows. You know I already shoot a crossbow so I don't have a dog in that part of the show.
Practice isn't a great argument. There isn't a limit of what is required to practice. Way to many guys don't practice much at all and are out flinging arrows.
With the new compounds its easy. The new trigger releases, peep sites, adjustable pins, glowing pins. Heck they have bows with extreme high let off's.
I just don't see the drawing of a bow that much different from moving around a crossbow. Harvest statistics in Wyoming and everywhere else have shown that both moving a crossbow and pulling a bow in the presence of game are the same---as in there isn't any difference in the harvest.


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## ram2h2o (Sep 11, 2007)

Ditto to what Adamsoa said. I first hunted with a longbow back in the 60's then compound as they came on site. Only went to crossbow when I no longer could pull and hold even a 40LB bow. Still gets me into the woods and even get to harvest a deer or hog now an then. Still more of a challenge to shoot one with a crossbow than a rifle or a sluggun.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

This wasn't the intent of my response. 
I was going to let this go but it's a slow day. 

Stablebuck, what makes you feel that they are too effective? Can you site the harvest reports for a state that shows that they are too effective? 

So far no one had shown that they are too effective-or that their harvest rates are anything different than other forms or archery. 

I've got stats from LOTS of states, hundreds of thousands of hunters that have shown that there is no difference.

Wyoming is still a great example of this. They have about 15% or so of their archery hunters that choose to hunt with a crossbow. Hasn't killed their herds. If it was so effective why wouldn't 85% of archers use crossbows there? Better faster bows are always the hot thing and if crossbows were that much better than compounds you'd think there'd be tons more of them.

In many of the eastern states crossbows consist of up to half or all archery hunters.

Of the 24 states that allow crossbows during the general archery hunt most of them don't require any special different type of license. Just an archery license and sometimes a crossbow permit. Nothing to it.

Crossbow exclusion doesn't have anything to do with biology, science or effectiveness--It has everything to do with the perception of a small group that's got everyone seeing the monster in the closet. 

Anyway---The point of my response was that with the numbers of hunters who choose to use a crossbow and the growth of this segment in the population it might be wise for P&Y to consider their stance.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

you can't really lump vertical bow hunters and crossbow hunters together when it comes to making comparisons between Utah and eastern states. Excluding people who use crossbows for medical reasons, a crossbow hunter is someone who usually hunts with a muzzleloader or rifle and has decided that it's not too hot out today...maybe I'll take the ol' crossbow out for a walk. Why would they make a conscious decision to take the crossbow out for a walk instead of the vertical bow??? Effectiveness. I would be willing to bet that the number of crossbows in the field during a general season is about ZERO. Why??? Because a rifle is better than a muzzleloader, a muzzleloader is better than a crossbow, a crossbow is better than a vertical bow if the only concern on the table is making a kill. I don't know how many times I've heard "I'll kill one with my xbow first and then I'll try with my vertical bow". It's just easier with a xbow and the last thing a mule deer needs in Utah is a more effective weapon in the field during the archery season than what's already out there.


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## Rspeters (Apr 4, 2013)

Seems like the big issue is where one draws the line when it comes to the use of technology in archery hunting. Archery is obviously a disadvantage as compared to rifle or muzzleloader, but why? Is it because of the drawing part or the fact that you're using an arrow rather than a bullet? To me the big difference is the fact that you're using an arrow as opposed to a bullet and your range is much decreased. The drawing part isn't as big of a deal to me, especially with today's technology. All that being said, I'm all for using crossbows for hunting. Yeah a crossbow gives a bit of an advantage, but in my opinion not so much that it should be illegal.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

So easy anyone can do it.





If they allow crossbows give them a set number of tags and take them from the rifle pool

33%, 33%, 33%


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

swbuckmaster said:


> So easy anyone can do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea in Utah no one will ever take tags from Rifle hunters. But they will take them from archers and give them to rifle guys. That's totally fine. :-?


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Stablehunter,
Great, another Crossbow hunters aren't real hunters because I said so comment. Its ok to say "I don't like crossbows because&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.". 
You seem to make a lot of assumptions WITHOUT ANY PROOF. Not everyone is just like you. Some guys choose to hunt with a compound. Others want to hunt with a recurve. Does that make the compound hunters any less real of a hunter than a recurve guy. Same thing with a crossbow. It's stick and string limited weapon.
Quite a few archers back east are choosing to hunt with both a crossbow and a bow. Crossbows are fun to shoot. Its about a choice.
You continually state that crossbows are more effective than other forms of archery. Show me the proof? You make a statement based on your personal feelings WITHOUT ANY PROOF. None. Zip. Zero. NADA.
Same old argument, "We aren't like back east." How is it that much different. Do bows pull better. Guys like you have been trying to quash crossbows all over back east and guess what? They are losing because its an emotional argument and not a fact/science based one. 
In state after state the harvest statistics are statistically the SAME. NO DIFFERENCE. You want to compare a western state go for it. Look at Wyoming. They've had crossbows legal during the archery hunt for 20, that's right 20 years. Guess what? They finally stopped keeping records because there was no difference. Where's the increased effectiveness? Oh that's right you just know that they are. 
If there was a difference the anti crossbow guys would be all over it showing everyone that they are killing machines. Not happening anywhere I've seen so far.
Now we get to SWBUCKMASTER. You know that you're my friend but we have to disagree on this one. Why is it that your first and only argument is to go an old PSE video of a 100 yard shot. Yes he made the shot from a BENCH.
You want to argue long distance shoots here you go:





 108 yard kill shot





 240 yard shoot




 185 yards with a PSE




 200 yard turkey shot

If you search the internet you can find tons of guys making shots with bows far in excess of anything being made with a crossbow.
Distance is an ethics issue----for both crossbows and bows-not a capability-they both have very similar capabilities.

Your argument is 100% emotional. You think that including crossbows might entice rifle/ml guys to come into your hunts and compete for your tags-period. That's your one argument. You stated that if you got some rifle tags moved into archery you'd be good with it.
So what I hear you saying is that there really isn't a problem with it as long as it doesn't affect your tags.
The last part of your arguments has to do with the ease of shooting. Where is there anything that states guys have to practice???????
You know that we've gone hunting with guys who didn't practice at all. They made terrible shots and wounded animals. 
There are no practice requirements.
You know that I hate the fact that its hard to draw tags. But I don't think bashing on/cutting out crossbows is going to be good for hunting in the long run.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

PS Stablebuck---Did you see Athens is getting ready to put out a crossbow?----And I meant that in a non argumentative way. They've been working on it for a long time.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

All I am saying is that by allowing crossbows for everyone during the archery hunt you will dramatically increase the success rate during the archery hunt. Just like compound bows dramatically increase the success rates during the archery hunt as opposed to if it were "recurve/longbow only". Some places can afford this dramatic increase in harvest success...Utah isn't one of those places. WY can do it because half of their hunters are non-res = $$$ Tennessee can do it because we kill 170k deer a year and they grow right back.
Yes I am very much aware of the Athens Apocalypse...I am not anti-crossbow...I am just convinced that they are more effective in making a kill than other forms of archery.
In TN 1/3 of the deer killed during the archery hunt were harvested with a xbow this last year. I'm not totally convinced that without xbows that the harvest quota would have been met by compounds and recurves filling that void.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Never mind


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Stablebuck---where are you getting your information on crossbow effectiveness? They have been under a micros hope for years now. There have been NO DOCUMENTED cases of them being more effective period. 
Not in Wyoming not in Tenn. That's the point. People say they are more effective but they aren't. There is No Proof! There is proof that the harvest rates are the same. So how does that make them more effective?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Broadside_Shot said:


> If a crossbow has recurve limbs is it considered traditional equipment? And can you enter a crossbow kill in the Pope and Young record books?


Some will says there is no difference lol.

Joking aside i don't know why P&Y dont have a section for them.Maybe its because you can enter them in the B&C book idk.


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## Rspeters (Apr 4, 2013)

stablebuck said:


> All I am saying is that by allowing crossbows for everyone during the archery hunt you will dramatically increase the success rate during the archery hunt.


I just don't buy this as a valid argument. If the success rate goes up, then offer less tags. Simple. I understand that offering less tags comes with its own problems (i.e. angry would-be hunters) but that could be said for a lot of things.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

adamsoa said:


> Stablebuck---where are you getting your information on crossbow effectiveness? They have been under a micros hope for years now. There have been NO DOCUMENTED cases of them being more effective period.
> Not in Wyoming not in Tenn. That's the point. People say they are more effective but they aren't. There is No Proof! There is proof that the harvest rates are the same. So how does that make them more effective?


Are more animals killed during the archery hunt after they are allowed or before?
I'm talking purely from a game management perspective. You can't honestly think that I can take an exclusively muzzleloader/rifle hunter and put a bow in his hand that he is going to be just as successful as if I were to put a xbow in his hand...???


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Stablebuck, I think that I can understand some of the differences that we are talking about. We are coming at things from different perspectives. I can see a couple of issues-----where we are different and I hope I can explain a little more about what I'm talking about. 
Issue #1:
1.  Crossbows will turn average hunters into super-efficient hunters who will kill a higher number of deer.
2. Sometimes I wish this were true----And I think that there would be a lot more people wanting crossbows lol.
3. Fact is that there are different hunters with every weapon. Some are better and some are not. Success rates for Utah archers is around 18% or less. 
4. Utah bases this rate on the total archery population not just select individuals. I think that Scott is up in the top 5% of Utah Archers in success. If we were to base the total archery numbers on his success rates there would be drastic cuts to Utah Archery tags. It also wouldn't give a good overall look at archers in general.
5. The crossbow isn't somehow going to turn anyone who picks it up into a great more efficient hunter. Archery is a difficult short range game. Some will excel at it and others won't. There is no way that someone who has never bow hunted is going to pick up a crossbow and compete with Scott on equal footing. ARCHERY HUNTING IS ABOUT SO MUCH MORE THAN FLINGING AN ARROW AT A TARGET. It requires a great deal of skill/stealth to get into range of an animal.
6. Not everyone is going to be great at it&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;and it is harder than you think.
Issue #2
1.  Crossbows have the same harvest rates as vertical archery. I know that you don't agree with this but I want to explain it a little differently so that even if you don't change your mind you can see why I make this argument.
2. Crossbows have been under huge scrutiny from various state agencies in all of the states they've been allowed usage. In the past 10 years crossbows have jumped from 3 states to 24 for use in the archery season. There are tons of guys like yourself demanding information and its been coming. 
For example Michigan just released a 3 year study. Georgia, and Ohio have a lot of information out also as do quite a few other states. When I state the harvest rates are the same, I'm saying exactly that. 
I can get you info from a ton of states that says:
Take 100 bow hunters and 100 crossbow hunters. Let the hunt a complete season. Their harvest numbers will be statistically the same. There are tons of studies on this-----pages of reports. It's the same in each of the states. And these states have crossbow hunters and bow hunters in the hundreds of thousands.
When I mention this about Wyoming I mean the same thing. Bow hunters and Crossbow hunters have the same statistical harvest rates. 100 Bow hunters and 15 crossbow hunters ( crossbows make up 15% of total archers in Wyoming) are harvesting the same statistical average of game. Don't take my word for it call Wyoming and ask them. They finally stopped keeping the difference because it was always the same.
You will always have the Scott's and the Elmer Fudds no matter the weapon.
Best part of all this as that you don't have to take my word for it. I can give you the websites to look at the harvest information. You can see for yourself that with millions of crossbow hunters and archers they have the same statistical harvest rates regardless of the state. 

That's what I meant when I asked you to prove things. I understand that you feel that crossbows are easy, unfair etc. But overall I haven't been able to find that advantage in overall harvest rates anywhere I've looked.
Just remember that this is a population average. Just like with Utah and archery success rates. It doesn't account only for the Scotts but for everyone that hunts with a bow. 

PS---This was just an explanation of how I thought we were seeing things differently and not an invitation to SW for a continuation of our argument.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

My brother lives in Michigan, and hunts the UP. There are a few inaccuracies, in this thread.

http://www.mlive.com/outdoors/index.ssf/2010/08/reaction_to_michigans_decision.html


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks lonetree for that link

Wow 36% success rate for crossbow hunters and 25% success rates for archers. Na not that big a difference Na. Then they close the study huh. Dont want that statistic getting out. 

This is the statistical increase id expect.
Now throw that on some of are tard stupid deer we have on our le units and we would have near 100% success rates on a 5 day hunt. More tag cuts on le and general units. Great!

This is exactly why i dont want an improved easier to learn weapon on a more primitive hunt unless those tags come out of the rifle pool. If those tags are coming out of the rifle pool then your essentially trading one 300-1000 yard long range weapon with multi shot capabilities for a one shot 100 yard weapon. Thats a fair trade! Besides the majority of the hunters utilizing the crossbow would be ones that would never pick up a bow in the first place.

One thing i know is bows! Ive even had crossbows. Crossbows are how i got into bows in the first place. My first crossbow was a 100 lb recurve bow i made in metal shop. The second crossbow was one i bought in a pawn shop. I shot the crap out of them. When i found out i couldnt hunt with them i traded both of them for a 45 lb bow because that was all i could pull back. "Some now days will try and tell me that's not fair and i was handicapped!" With my crossbows i was pretty good out to 35-50 yards. With my bow i was really only ok out to 20 yards with a pie plate group. That 1-3 years i hunted with my bow i missed probably 20-30 bucks. Finally got a 2 point and a few does. If i had been shooting my crossbows all of the deer i shot at would have been bagged because i was good enough with that weapon. It was easy! 

Adamsoa can push his agenda all he wants. I disagree with it entirely because i have already walked in those shoes. Been there done that. His stats will never change my mind. 

Is a crossbow going to make me a more effective bow hunter? Not until age catches up to me. Is it going to make an average guy success rate go up? Slightly "11% like in the study". Is it going to make the sub par, put no effort into shooting, old, young, woman? Absolutely! If it didnt adamsoa wouldnt be pushing his agenda. 

This crossbow debate for me is like someone telling Jesus there isnt a god!

Im done with this post! Its too personal! Ive been there done that and my mind will never be changed! I hate arguing with one of my best buds over it.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Scott,
I don't want to argue anymore with you either. But I wanted to give you the correct sources before we did.  *The Study wasn't canceled.* I'm attaching the study to this. It doesn't say what you think. Bow hunter.com wrote something up on this that is quick and easy. I've included that attachment.
Then at the bottom I've included the 3 year study. It doesn't agree with what the anti crossbow news article said.

The article that was earlier is an anti crossbow made up fairy tale article.

Bow hunter article:

http://www.bowhunting.com/blog/2013/5/1/crossbow-controversies/

The report is in adobe if anyone would like a copy. I don't know how to get it across cleaner than this.

A contribution of Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration, Michigan Project W-127-R 
Equal Rights for Natural Resource Users The Michigan Department of Natural Resources provides equal opportunities for employment and access to Michigan's natural resources. Both State and Federal laws prohibit discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, disability, age, sex, height, weight or marital status under the U.S. Civil Rights Acts of 1964 as amended, 1976 MI PA 453, 1976 MI PA 220, Title V of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 as amended, and the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act, as amended. 
If you believe that you have been discriminated against in any program, activity, or facility, or if you desire additional information, please write: Human Resources, Michigan Department of Natural Resources, PO Box 30473, Lansing MI 48909-7973, or Michigan Department of Civil Rights, Cadillac Place, 3054 West Grand Blvd, Suite 3-600, Detroit, MI 48202, or Division of Federal Assistance, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, 4401 North Fairfax Drive, Mail Stop MBSP-4020, Arlington, VA 22203. 
For information or assistance on this publication, contact Michigan Department of Natural Resources, Wildlife Division, P.O. Box 30444, Lansing MI 48909. This publication is available in alternative formats upon request. 
IC2578-114 (01/25/2013) 
MICHIGAN DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES Wildlife Division Report No. 3557 January 2013 
CROSSBOW DEER HUNTER SURVEY 
Brian J. Frawley and Brent A. Rudolph 
ABSTRACT 
Beginning in 2009, crossbows were allowed for use in Michigan's archery deer hunting season in an attempt to expand hunting opportunities, retain existing hunters, and recruit new hunters. An evaluation was done to assess whether these objectives had been met and to determine crossbow hunters' opinions about the use of crossbows. The number of people hunting in the archery season increased 13% statewide since crossbow hunting opportunities was expanded (between 2008 and 2011). In contrast, participation in all deer hunting seasons declined 7% during this same period. The proportion of archers using a crossbow statewide increased from 19% in 2009 to 37% in 2011. The number of crossbow archers in Michigan more than doubled between 2009 and 2011. The number of deer harvested with crossbows also more than doubled during 2009-2011, although hunter success among archers using crossbows was similar each year. Harvest by crossbow hunters increased in each successive year during 2009-2011; yet, harvest of deer during all deer hunting seasons combined did not increase each year. An estimated 118,573 archers used a crossbow during the Michigan archery season in 2011. About 74% of the hunters (71,305) using a crossbow in 2011 had hunted in the archery season during one of the three years prior to authorization of crossbows. About 25% (24,438) of the crossbow hunters in 2011 had not hunted during the archery season during the three years prior to expanded use of crossbows (i.e., newly recruited archers). In addition, about 19% (18,731) of the hunters using a crossbow in 2011 had never hunted with anything other than a firearm prior to the expanded use of crossbows. About 88% of the crossbow hunters indicated their experience hunting with a crossbow had met all or most of their expectations. About 65% of the crossbow hunters indicated crossbows had either greatly improved or 
D E P A R T M E N T O F
N
A T U R A L R E S O U R C E S
M I C H
I G A N
DNR
Printed by Authority of: P.A. 451 of 1994 Total Number of Copies Printed: ......25 Cost per Copy: ..............&#8230;...........$1.33 Total Cost: ................................. $33.25 
Michigan Department of Natural Resources

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improved the quality of their hunt. At least 77% of the crossbow hunters agreed that in comparison to other types of bows (1) crossbows were easier to use, (2) it took less time to become proficient with crossbows, (3) they were more accurate with crossbows, and (4) they were more confident they could harvest a deer using a crossbow. About 50% of crossbow hunters agreed that (1) using crossbows allowed them to hunt more often, (2) they would not hunt during the archery season if crossbows could not be used, and (3) they would not want to hunt in the archery season if crossbows could not be used. About 52% of crossbow hunters reported using crossbows increased how often they hunted in the archery season, and 27% indicated using a crossbow had increased the number of deer they took in the archery season. About 96% of the crossbow hunters planned to use a crossbow to hunt in future archery seasons in Michigan. In addition, 57% of crossbow hunters planned to increase the amount of time they hunt in future seasons. 
INTRODUCTION 
Prior to 2009, only hunters with disabilities had an option to use a crossbow to hunt deer during the archery season in Michigan. Interest in allowing expanded use of crossbows has grown as the average age of hunters has increased because older hunters often have physical limitations that make it difficult to use other types of bows. As hunting participation in Michigan has declined in recent years (Frawley 2006), expanded use of crossbows has been viewed as an option to expand hunting opportunities, retain existing hunters, and recruit new hunters. 
The archery season in Michigan occurred statewide on public and private lands. This season was divided into early and late season segments (October 1 through November 14 and December 1 through January 1 of the following year). Crossbows were authorized for use to hunt deer during Michigan's archery season in 2009, except in the Upper Peninsula where crossbow use was prohibited during the late archery season segment (unless the hunter had disabilities). Outside of Zone 3 (southern Lower Peninsula), only hunters 50 years of age or older could take advantage of this expanded opportunity in 2009. Limits on the velocity of the crossbow were also in place in 2009, restricting hunters to use of crossbows that fired bolts at no more than 350 feet per second. Starting in 2010, the age and velocity restrictions on crossbow use were eliminated. 
The Natural Resources Commission and Wildlife Division have the authority and responsibility to protect and manage the wildlife resources of the state of Michigan. Opinion surveys are a management tool used by the Wildlife Division to accomplish its statutory responsibility. The main objectives of this opinion survey were to determine why hunters used crossbows, whether using crossbows had met hunters' expectations, and whether hunters planned to continue to use crossbows in the future. This information will aid in determining whether the changes in crossbow regulations met the intent of expanding hunting opportunities, retaining existing hunters, and recruiting new hunters.

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METHODS 
Hunters using a crossbow were required to obtain either a free DNR-issued crossbow stamp each year they hunted or obtain a free DNR-issued crossbow permit. The crossbow stamp was available annually beginning in 2009 to all hunters wanting to hunt with a crossbow during the archery season, except in the Upper Peninsula (UP) where crossbow use was prohibited during the late archery season segment. Alternatively, a crossbow permit was available to hunters certified as being disabled by a licensed or registered physician, physical or occupational therapist. These crossbow permits allowed a hunter to use a crossbow for the taking of deer during any open season, including the late archery season segment in the UP. The crossbow permits for hunters with disabilities were available prior to 2009 when the crossbow stamp was created. Most of these permits were issued to individuals with permanent disabilities; thus, most permits did not expire. 
Three years after the crossbow was authorized for use in Michigan's archery season, a questionnaire (Appendix A) was sent to a random sample of 2,000 hunters that had reported they had used a crossbow in the archery season during 2011. This sample represented randomly selected hunters included in the annual deer harvest survey conducted by the Wildlife Division (Frawley 2012). Hunters receiving the crossbow survey were asked to indicate their opinion about the use of crossbows. 
Estimates were calculated using a random sampling design (Cochran 1977). Estimates were calculated along with their 95% confidence limit (CL). This CL could be added and subtracted from the estimate to calculate the 95% confidence interval. The confidence interval was a measure of the precision associated with the estimate and implied the true value would be within this interval 95 times out of 100. Estimates were not adjusted for possible response or nonresponse bias. 
The primary target of this survey was archers that used a crossbow under the expanded opportunities created during the archery season beginning in 2009. However, the sample of crossbow hunters was drawn from an annual harvest survey that included crossbow hunters with either a crossbow stamp or a crossbow permit. Additionally, the sample included some archers using a crossbow without either a crossbow stamp or permit. Thus, the sample was broader than the target population because it included some archers using a crossbow under the authority of a crossbow permit for hunters with disabilities. Because archers having a crossbow permit for hunters with disabilities were not the target of this survey, they were excluded when deriving most estimates from the survey (i.e., see estimation of subpopulations, Cochran 1977). 
The random sample of people receiving the questionnaire included 2,000 hunters. Questionnaires were initially mailed during early October 2012. One follow-up questionnaire was mailed to nonrespondents in early November. To increase the number of questionnaires returned, respondents that returned their questionnaire promptly were eligible to win a prize of a crossbow. Although 2,000 people were sent the questionnaire, 15 surveys were undeliverable resulting in an adjusted sample size of 1,985 (i.e., minus undeliverable questionnaires). Questionnaires were returned by 1,475 people, yielding a 74% adjusted response rate.

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RESULTS AND DISCUSSION 
Crossbows were authorized for hunting deer during Michigan's archery season in 2009, except in the UP where crossbow use was prohibited during the late archery season segment. In 2009, only hunters 50 years of age or older outside of the southern Lower Peninsula could use crossbows with a crossbow stamp. Starting in 2010, this age restriction was eliminated. The number of people obtaining a crossbow stamp was 45,692 in 2009; 64,340 in 2010; and 74,120 in 2011 (Figure 1). 
The average age of crossbow stamp holders was greater than among all deer hunting license buyers during 2009-2011 (Figure 2). The mean age of deer hunting license buyers increased each year during 2009-2011; however, the mean age of people obtaining a crossbow stamp declined each year (Figure 3). The declining age of crossbow stamp holders was indicative of younger hunters choosing to use crossbows in each successive year throughout 2009-2011. Crossbow use was initially greatest among older hunters because in 2009 archers using crossbows outside of the southern Lower Peninsula had to 50 years of age or older. The average age of those using crossbows probably remained higher after 2009 because older hunters were more likely to have some limitations that prevented them from using other types of bows. 
Based on estimates from annual deer harvest surveys (e.g., Frawley 2012), the number of people hunting deer during all deer hunting seasons in Michigan declined 7% and deer harvested declined 13% between 2008 and 2011 (i.e., after crossbows were allowed in the archery season). Furthermore, the number of hunters participating in the regular firearm season (November 15-30) declined 10% and deer taken declined 27% during this same period. In contrast, the number of people hunting in the archery season increased 13% and deer taken increased 24% between 2008 and 2011 (Tables 1-2). Thus, authorization of crossbow use during the archery season appeared to help increase hunter participation and deer harvest in the archery season since 2008. 
Although the number of hunters and deer harvested in the regular firearm season decreased at the same time participation and harvest increased in the archery season, it was not possible to ascribe these changes solely to the authorization of crossbows. The opening date for the regular firearm season was known to affect the annual changes in deer harvest and hunter participation in the regular firearm season. Generally, participation and harvest in the regular firearm season have been greatest for seasons starting Thursday through Sunday. The regular firearm season started on Saturday in 2008, Sunday in 2009, Monday in 2010, and Tuesday in 2011. Thus, annual changes in harvest and participation in the regular firearm season were confounded by the changes in crossbow usage in the archery season. 
The opportunity for archers to harvest deer with a crossbow did not lead directly to a higher harvest of deer overall (Table 1). The total harvest of deer during the archery season increased in 2009 and 2011 compared to the prior years, but was nearly unchanged from 2009-2010 (Table 2). The total harvest of deer during all seasons combined declined or was similar to prior years in each year during which archers could use crossbows. This occurred

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despite a more than doubling of the number of deer harvested with crossbows 2009-2011 (Table 5). 
Hunters were presented six statements about how using crossbows for deer hunting in Michigan had affected their hunting effort and harvest during archery and regular firearm deer hunting seasons, as well as how crossbows may affect future hunting effort (Tables 3-4). About 52% of crossbow hunters reported using crossbows increased how often they hunted in the archery season, and 27% indicated using a crossbow had increased the number of deer they took in the archery season. About 87% of crossbow hunters reported using crossbows in the archery season had not changed how often they hunted in the regular firearm season. Furthermore, 86% of crossbow hunters reported their harvest was unchanged in the regular firearm season. 
The proportion of all archers using a crossbow increased from 19% in 2009 to 37% in 2011 (Table 5). For comparison, 26% of Georgia archers used a crossbow in the first year after crossbows were authorized in 2004 (Responsive Management 2005), and 25% of New Jersey archers used a crossbow in the first year after crossbows were allowed in 2009 (Kandoth and Roberts 2010). The number of crossbow archers in Michigan more than doubled between 2009 and 2011. The number of archers using a crossbow increased from 56,915 to 90,615 (59%) between 2009 and 2010, likely due to elimination of the age restriction. Crossbow archers increased another 31% between 2010 and 2011. The number of deer harvested with crossbows also more than doubled during 2009-2011, although the proportion of crossbow hunters who took at least one deer (hunter success) was similar each year (36-39%, Table 5). 
Archers using a crossbow had higher hunting success than all archers combined (Figure 4). The addition of crossbow hunters in the archery season starting in 2009 likely increased overall hunting success among archers by 2-4 percentage points. (Hunter success without crossbows was predicted from a linear model that used the relationship between hunter success in the regular firearm season and archery season during 2000-2008.) For comparison, Ditchkoff et al. (2001) reported archers using crossbows in southeast Oklahoma were more successful than archers using other types of bows. 
An estimated 118,573 hunters used a crossbow during the Michigan archery season in 2011 (Frawley 2012, Table 5). About 74 ± 2% of the archers using a crossbow in 2011 had obtained at least one crossbow stamp during 2009-2011; 15 ± 2% of these archers had obtained a crossbow permit (i.e., hunters with disabilities); and 80 ± 2% of these archers had either a crossbow stamp or permit. 
About 74 ± 2% of the hunters (71,305 ± 2,945) using a crossbow in 2011 (excluding hunters having a crossbow permit) had hunted in the archery season during one of the three years prior to authorization of crossbows (i.e., 2006-2008). For comparison, 68% of Georgia hunters using crossbows in 2004 after they had been allowed in the archery season had previously hunted in the archery season (Responsive Management 2005). The compound bow was the most commonly used hunting device (96 ± 1%) among previously active hunters in Michigan. A recurve bow was used by 6 ± 2% and a longbow was used by 2 ± 1%. (Proportions were greater than 100% because a few hunters reported using more than one device.)

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About 25 ± 2% (24,438 ± 2,433) of the crossbow hunters in 2011 had not hunted during the archery season during the three years prior to authorization of crossbows (i.e., newly recruited archers, excluding hunters having a crossbow permit). In addition, about 19 ± 2% (18,731 ± 2,194) of the hunters using a crossbow in 2011 had hunted with firearms only prior to the authorization of crossbows. 
About 96 ± 1% of the hunters using a crossbow in 2011 (96,225 ± 2,353; excluding hunters having a crossbow permit) reported they had hunted in the archery season during 2009-2011. (About 4% of hunters did not report hunting during 2009-2011, although these same hunters had previously reported hunting for the annual harvest survey.) The crossbow was the most commonly used hunting device (98 ± 1%) among active crossbow hunters. A compound bow was used by 36 ± 3%, a recurve bow was used by 2 ± 1%, and a longbow was used by 1 ± 1% of active hunters. 
About 88 ± 2% of the hunters using a crossbow in 2011 (excluding hunters having a crossbow permit) indicated their experience hunting with a crossbow met all or most of their expectations (43 ± 3% reported all of their expectations were met and 45 ± 3% reported most of their expectations were met). In contrast, 6 ± 1% of crossbow hunters indicated that some or all of their expectations were not met. 
About 65 ± 3% of the hunters using a crossbow in 2011 (excluding hunters having a crossbow permit) indicated crossbows had either greatly improved or improved the quality of their hunt (26 ± 2% reported greatly improved conditions while 39 ± 3% reported improved conditions). In contrast, 2 ± 1% of crossbow hunters indicated crossbows had either greatly decreased or decreased the quality of their hunt. 
Crossbow hunters were presented nine statements about the use of crossbows for deer hunting in Michigan and were asked to indicate how much they agreed or disagreed with these statements (Tables 6-7). The nine statements were designed to evaluate some reasons why these hunters may have decided to use crossbows over other types of bows. 
At least 77% of the crossbow hunters agreed (1) crossbows were easier to use, (2) it took less time to become proficient with crossbows, (3) they were more accurate with crossbows, and (4) they were more confident they could harvest a deer using a crossbow than with other types of bows (Tables 6-7). About 50% of crossbow hunters agreed that (1) using crossbows allowed them to hunt more often, (2) they would not hunt during the archery season if crossbows could not be used, and (3) they would not want to hunt in the archery season if crossbows could not be used. Less than 30% of crossbow hunters stated they used crossbows because it was either (1) more satisfying or (2) more challenging to hunt with crossbows than other types of bows. 
About 96 ± 1% of the crossbow hunters planned to use a crossbow to hunt in future archery seasons in Michigan. In contrast, 26 ± 2% of the crossbow hunters planned to use a compound bow in the future. In addition, 57% of crossbow hunters planned to increase the amount of time they hunt in future seasons (Tables 3-4).

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Among newly recruited archers using a crossbow in 2011 (24,438 ± 2,433), at least 70% agreed that (1) using crossbows allowed them to hunt more often, (2) they would not hunt during the archery season if crossbows could not be used, and (3) they would not want to hunt in the archery season if crossbows could not be used (Table 8). A higher proportion of the newly recruited crossbow hunters agreed with these statements than among all crossbows hunters (compare Tables 6 and 8). In addition, 83% of the newly recruited archers reported using crossbows increased how often they hunted in the archery season (Table 9). This was higher than among all crossbows hunters (compare Tables 3 and 9). 
Authorization of crossbows during Michigan's archery deer season appeared to be an important factor for recruiting and retaining a number of new archers, increasing the recreational opportunity for those that had previously hunted in the archery season, and improving the quality of hunts for archers using a crossbow. Most archers that used a crossbow indicated their experience using crossbows met most or all of their expectations, and nearly all crossbow hunters planned to use crossbows again in future seasons. Crossbow hunters had higher hunting success than archers using other types of bows, although the expanded opportunity did not produce a consistently higher archery harvest or increase the number of deer harvested during all seasons combined. These expanded opportunities appear to have increased archer numbers in Michigan, although crossbow use did not reverse the longer-term decline in deer hunter numbers in Michigan. 
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS 
I thank all the hunters that provided information. Theresa Riebow completed data entry. Marshall Strong prepared Figure 1. Sarah Cummins, Russ Mason, Cheryl Nelson, and Doug Reeves reviewed a draft version of this report. 
LITERATURE CITED 
Cochran, W. G. 1977. Sampling techniques. John Wiley & Sons, New York. USA. 
Frawley, B. J. 2006. Demographics, recruitment, and retention of Michigan hunters: 2005 update. Wildlife Division Report 3462. Michigan Department of Natural Resources, Lansing, USA. 
Frawley, B. J. 2012. Michigan deer harvest survey report: 2011 seasons. Wildlife Division Report 3548. Michigan Department of Natural Resources, Lansing, USA. 
Kandoth, C., and D. Roberts. 2010. An assessment of New Jersey resident bow hunter participation. New Jersey Division of Fish and Wildlife. Trenton, USA. 
Responsive Management. 2005. Georgia wildlife harvest survey 2004-2005. Responsive Management, Harrisonburg, Virginia. USA. 
Ditchkoff, S. S., W. R. Starry, R. E. Masters, and C. W. Deurmyer. 2001. Hunter success and selectivity using crossbows. Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeast Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. 55:560-566.

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Figure 1. Number of people obtaining a crossbow stamp in Michigan, 2009-2011. Crossbow was authorized for use in the archery season in 2009. 
0 10,000 20,000 30,000 40,000 50,000 60,000 70,000 80,000
2009 2010 2011
Crossbow stamp holders (No.)
Year
0.0%
0.5%
1.0%
1.5%
2.0%
2.5%
3.0%
3.5%
9 13 17 21 25 29 33 37 41 45 49 53 57 61 65 69 73 77 81 85 89 93 97
Hunters
Age on October 1, 2011
Deer hunting license buyers Crossbow stamp holders
Figure 2. Proportion of deer hunting license buyers (all types) and crossbow stamp holders within each age class in Michigan during 2009-2011. The mean age of deer hunting license buyers was 42, while the mean age of crossbow stamp holders was 50.

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Figure 3. The mean age of people obtaining a deer hunting license (all types) and a crossbow stamp in Michigan, 2009-2011. 
40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54
2009 2010 2011
Mean age on October 1
Year
Crossbow stamp holders Deer hunters 
Figure 4. Hunter success in Michigan's archery and regular firearm seasons, 2000- 2011. Hunter success in the archery season was estimated for all archers, archers using a crossbow (started in 2009), and predicted among all archers since 2009 if crossbows had not been authorized. Hunter success without crossbows was predicted using the historic relationship between hunter success in the regular firearm season and archery season during 2000-2008. 
20
25
30
35
40
45
2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
Hunter success (%)
Year
Crossbow archers Archery (all hunting devices)
Firearm Predicted archery w/out crossbow

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Table 1. Number of deer hunters in Michigan by hunting season, 2006-2011. a 
Year 
Deer hunting season All seasons b Regular firearm Archery No. 95% CL c No. 95% CL No. 95% CL 2006 691,073 1,765 630,379 2,684 309,140 3,951 2007 682,962 1,700 620,192 2,632 300,254 3,846 2008 693,817 1,700 642,317 2,581 285,508 4,022 2009 686,392 1,653 628,675 2,593 305,332 3,902 2010 656,501 1,679 593,074 2,724 306,686 3,990 2011 648,127 1,731 578,855 2,846 321,869 4,037 aEstimates obtained from annual deer harvest surveys done by the Wildlife Divisio n (e.g., Frawley 2012). bIncluded archery, regular firearm, muzzleloader, youth, disabled hunters, and special antlerless deer hunting seasons. c95% confidence limits. 
Table 2. Number of deer harvested in Michigan by hunting season, 2006-2011. a 
Year


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Bottom line is that that article wasn't true and was put out to discredit crossbow use. Heck, even bowhunting.com got into this one to clear it up.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

adamsoa said:


> Scott, At least 77% of the crossbow hunters agreed that in comparison to other types of bows *(1) crossbows were easier to use, (2) it took less time to become proficient with crossbows, (3) they were more accurate with crossbows, and (4) they were more confident they could harvest a deer using a crossbow.* About 50% of crossbow hunters agreed that (1) using crossbows allowed them to hunt more often, (2) they would not hunt during the archery season if crossbows could not be used, and (3) they would not want to hunt in the archery season if crossbows could not be used. About 52% of crossbow hunters reported using crossbows increased how often they hunted in the archery season, and 27% indicated using a crossbow had increased the number of deer they took in the archery season. About 96% of the crossbow hunters planned to use a crossbow to hunt in future archery seasons in Michigan. In addition, 57% of crossbow hunters planned to increase the amount of time they hunt in future seasons.


Bottom line=Crossbows mean more archery hunters, more success, less effort involved, more animals harvested, fewer animals remaining after the hunts, and therefore fewer tags in the future.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

How does it equal higher success? Currently there are a set number of archery tags. Crossbow success is the same as vertical bow success. If combined, an archery tag is an archery tag for success rates. Unless there is an increase in archery tags the success rates are the same.

All I'm suggesting is that they are allowed as an alternative during the current archery hunt. If people want to hunt with one they would have the option to do so. If not they wouldn't have to. 

Not rocket science. The harvest rates would stay the same. Archery hunters would have the option of a stick bow, compound bow or a crossbow. 

No one's suggesting another hunt with a new allotment of tags. Just the option of using a crossbow to harvest during the current archery hunt. ***Does not equal more deer killed.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

The issue is that they relaxed the regs, before the study was finished. Also note how the regs were changed, and who pushed for that change, that is my bigger issue, above and beyond the argument about the use of crossbows.

I think the "any legal weapon" designation could take care of this debate easily. 

Just because other states have caved to special interests, and industry pressure, does not mean that Utah should too. I have nothing against people wanting to use crossbows. But given the current climate, where some people can not even draw an archery deer tag, adding crossbows into the mix is ludicrous. 

Many of the arguments are valid, you still have to get close, it is a single shot, etc. But it is still not the same. How do we justify crossbows, but limit the kind of release, and the percentage of let off, etc. of compound bow users? If we allow cross bows, should we do away those regs on wheel bows?


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

adamsoa said:


> At least 77% of the crossbow hunters agreed that in comparison to other types of bows (1) crossbows were easier to use, (2) it took less time to become proficient with crossbows, *(3) they were more accurate with crossbows, and (4) they were more confident they could harvest a deer using a crossbow. *About 50% of crossbow hunters agreed that (1) using crossbows allowed them to hunt more often, (2) they would not hunt during the archery season if crossbows could not be used, and (3) they would not want to hunt in the archery season if crossbows could not be used. About 52% of crossbow hunters reported using crossbows increased how often they hunted in the archery season, and 27% indicated using a crossbow had increased the number of deer they took in the archery season. About 96% of the crossbow hunters planned to use a crossbow to hunt in future archery seasons in Michigan. In addition, 57% of crossbow hunters planned to increase the amount of time they hunt in future seasons.


Same number of hunters. 77% of crossbow users say they are easier, took less time to become proficient,are more accurate (meaning more hits on game), and more confident that they could harvest a deer using a crossbow. Which in turn translates to more hunters spending more time in the field harvesting more deer. Pretty simple.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

Yet still the harvest numbers are the same overall.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

adamsoa said:


> Yet still the harvest numbers are the same overall.


According to some arguments, and some sets of numbers, in a relatively new arena. There are those that counter also.

How do you account for so many new "archery" hunters, yet the success rate is supposedly the same?

I am not going to spend a lot of time on this, I hope crossbow hunters find a place, I just think most archers believe it should not be with the rest of us.

I am sure the same arguments can be made about 4X scopes on muzzleloaders, silencers on rifles, large scale high fence hunting in Texas. They might have their place, but it is in no way an equivalent spot.


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## adamsoa (Oct 29, 2007)

I'm about done with this one also. But I'll leave you with a parting thought:

In Utah Archery is turning into a vanilla hunting group. The VAST majority or archers are MALE's between the ages of 18 and 40.

Girls enter archery at a much lower rate than they do either ML or Rifle.
Women in Archery are almost non existent and less than that after 40.
Men leave Archery at an alarming rate after the age of 40.

So what do you have left? Males between 18 and 40 who fling arrows at deer.

Guys who want a greater percentage of tags but are the smallest group in Utah hunting. Guys who only see the effect tags have on them, missing the point that they are only recruiting guys who are just like they are.

My field is Human Resources. If I were to have hiring practices that looked like this I would get sued for Disparate Impact (In United States employment law, the doctrine of *disparate impact* holds that employment practices may be considered discriminatory and illegal if they have a disproportionate *"adverse impact"* on members of a minority group ie Women and People over 40).

There's no question about the women (young and old) and older people participating in Utah archery. Guys don't want to hear it because it might effect their tags but ARCHERY HAS A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH RECRUITMENT OF ANYONE WHO ISNT A MAN AGE 18-40.

I loved the statement that the addition of crossbows got people excited about hunting/archery and wanting to spend more time in the field. Isnt this what Utah needs is recruitment of people into Archery? People who might want to put down the rifle or ML and give archery a try? Wouldn't this be a stronger basis to get more archery tags? There has to be a bigger focus on recruiting other people to archery in UTAH.

It was mentioned that archery tags are hard to come by. That's right because I didn't draw one this year.

If a crossbow reg passes in the state it will probably be after the period it would make a difference for my girls.

I'm extremely passionate about hunting in general and if I've argued with you know that its because I care about hunting in general. The more I've gotten into this and looked at how things work the more my passion---especially about crossbows---has grown.

A few years ago I didn't know anything at all about crossbows. Then came the day when I could no longer pull back my bow. I'd been indifferent to them before but I wanted to keep bow hunting.

After I got a COR I started shooting again and loved it. It kept me going in a sport that I love and am passionate about.------So that's where I'm coming from.

I understand that there are a lot of other people out there who are just as passionate as I am and I'm actually glad that they take the time to read and argue with me on these subjects.

I especially appreciate Scott who is as passionate as they come. He's got a ton of dedication to the sport of archery and hunting here in Utah.-----he's also good for an argument on the merits of crossbows and is a master Sherpa of packing out anything you care to shoot and one hell of a guy.

Anyway-----Good luck in your hunts this year however they may come.

Andy


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