# Product review: very small handguns



## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

I have not posted for a while and I am getting an itchy trrrrrrrrrr.....key finger. So I will share some firearms experiences I have had recently if anyone really cares. A while back, my daughter who is single, lives alone and works shift work, expressed the desire to obtain a CCP and a gun for personal defense. Having grown up in a family of recreational shooters but still being a relative novice at concealed and carry handguns, I sort of steered her toward the safety and simplicity of a revolver. She chose a Taurus Ultra-Lite 38 special. It is very light and compact and being hammer-less is super simple. You just grab it and pull the trigger double action. But both she and I overlooked a very important law of physics, that felt recoil is essentially the kinetic energy generated by the round minus the weight of the gun ( and in the case of auto-loaders, also minus whatever energy is bleed off to work the action). Well, the very light weight and small grip of the Ultra-Lite revolver shooting a 38 special round created just too much felt recoil for her. It made a blister on her hand every time she shot it and as a result her shooting actually deteriorated with practice rather than improve, I am sure simply because of inhibition. In the mean time, my son-in-law (different daughter) received a Berretta Tomcat 32 ACP as a Christmas gift from his father. Of course, everyone in the family had to try his new little toy. When my daughter shot it she fell in love with it because of it's very diminutive size and very mild recoil. So I bought her one for her birthday. I looked at several other "mouse guns" but the Tomcat had many features that I really like. The pop up barrel makes inspection, loading and unloading of the chamber very simple, and safe without having to work the slide. It is also very convenient for cleaning. Disassembly and reassembly for cleaning is very easy and is accomplished in seconds. I also am impressed with it's safety features. It has a mechanical safety that locks the trigger, slide and hammer. The hammer has a half ****ed safety position and it also has an internal transfer block safety mechanism. At the risk of sounding like a father, all of these things appeal to me, particularly in a gun you carry in your pocket. It is reasonably accurate for it's size and cambering but accuracy decreases quickly beyond 10 to 15 yards. It is very small and easily concealed even in the clothing of an attractive girl in her late 20s. It does not have a mechanical extractor relying strictly on blow back to eject spent cases but this has not been an inconvenience as neither my daughter nor my son-in-law have experienced a failure to eject yet. The only disadvantage I see in the Tomcat is that 32 ACP ammo is quite expensive and even harder to find than most other handgun ammo. This discourages practice. Enter the Berretta Bobcat. The Bobcat is very similar to the Tomcat with all of the same features but comes chambered for either 25 ACP or 22 LR. Now being the very practical man that I am, I thought a Bobcat in 22LR would be a very practical thing to have in the family for fun and practice. So I ordered one. Now I want to point out that this decision is entirely practical and has nothing whatsoever to do with the acquisition of yet another firearm. :wink: Well, I found out that the Bobcat is even more diminutive than even the Tomcat. It is roughly the same length but due to the smaller caliber has a narrower profile. On paper, the KE of the 32 ACP and the 22LR are almost the same but I strongly suspect that this is a little misleading because I think most ballistic information for rim fire rounds is measured through rifle barrels and would not generate as much velocity through a very short barrel. But the difference is very small. The 32ACP has more frontal diameter and the Tomcat is noticeably built heavier. But I think the real advantage of the Tomcat over the Bobcat for personal defense is that the 32 ACP was specifically designed to cycle through the action of semi auto handguns and would be a little more reliable than the rim fire round. I have only shot about 300 rounds through the Bobcat and have experienced about 3 either failure to feed or failure to fire malfunctions with bulk ammo compared to none in either Tomcat. I have read that higher velocity ammo works a little better but I have not tried any yet. The recoil of the Tomcat and Bobcat are not appreciably much different but the Bobcat has slightly less recoil. It is not as accurate as the tomcat but it is very fun to shoot. And my wife is already making noises about getting a CCP. My daughter and I shoot together whenever our schedules permit. She loves her Tomcat and likes shooting my more economical Bobcat. And her shooting has already improved significantly.



Oh yea, and whatever became of her Ultra-Lite? Well, she likes her Tomcat so much that she no longer wanted it so she gave it to me. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: 
It is NOT to much gun for me and it is perfect for those times my 357 is just too much for convenience, comfort or concealment. My 2........aaaaaa 4 cents.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Congrats on the new pistole and the information on the Tomcat. One thing that I would suggest for your daughter to try is some shooting gloves. When my ex wanted to get into shooting she had the same problem with recoil and a blister. The gloves solved the blister part and helped her on the recoil a little and for the target shooting they are quite nice. 
I just told her that if she ever needed to shoot the pistole in a self defense situation that she would never feel the kick.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

My 2cents on pocket guns. I haven't used a Tomcat or Bobcat though.

For a pocket gun I'm not a fan of the .38 revolver either. I really like the feel and features of the Sig Sauer p238 in.380. It's similar in style to the 1911's but its actually a knock off of the Colt Mustang but it costs half the price. You can get a new p238 loaded with night sights for around $500 and they come in lots of different color options. The gun shoots great and is pretty accurate while it will fit in your wallet pocket.

Check it out
http://sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalo ... ductid=277


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## Gee LeDouche (Sep 21, 2007)

great post campfire! I have a PPK in 22LR that I absolutely love. I also have a small little "noisey cricket" called a Phoenix HP22A that is just as fun and a LOT cheaper on the initial purchase. (and after about 100-200 breakin rounds it is just as reliable as the PPK) I LOVE 22 pistols. I think becuase they are so economical to shoot and they are (generally) surprisingly accurate with cheap bulk ammo. anywho. Thanks for sharing. do you have any pics of the guns?


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks Campfire! I bought same T85-UL in .38 Special for my wife. I love the gun, but she has the same problem with the recoil being a bit much. She did say it was tolerable but she came out with the same blister at the base of her thumb after about 10 shots. Couldn't even imagine those S&W Scandium frames in .357 Magnum. Ouch...


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Gee LeDouche said:


> great post campfire! I have a PPK in 22LR that I absolutely love. I also have a small little "noisey cricket" called a Phoenix HP22A that is just as fun and a LOT cheaper on the initial purchase. (and after about 100-200 breakin rounds it is just as reliable as the PPK) I LOVE 22 pistols. I think becuase they are so economical to shoot and they are (generally) surprisingly accurate with cheap bulk ammo. anywho. Thanks for sharing. do you have any pics of the guns?


If my daughter comes over for dinner tomorrow I will ask her to bring her Tomcat and we will take some pics and post them. I think you might be right about a break in. I had two failure to feed malfunctions in the first 100 rounds through my Bobcat, one failure to feed in the next 200 rounds and my wife and I shot 100 rounds today while ATVing and it functioned flawlessly.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I bought my dad one of those Beretta .22's, he can't hit the inside of a barn with it, too small for his big hands. I can shoot it okay, been hoping he would trade it back to me. :lol: 

I bought a Bersa 380, I know it a little bigger than the guns you are talking about but it’s very concealable, highly reliable, and very accurate. For a cc gun I would recommend one of them.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

deadicatedweim said:


> My 2cents on pocket guns. I haven't used a Tomcat or Bobcat though.
> 
> For a pocket gun I'm not a fan of the .38 revolver either. I really like the feel and features of the Sig Sauer p238 in.380. It's similar in style to the 1911's but its actually a knock off of the Colt Mustang but it costs half the price. You can get a new p238 loaded with night sights for around $500 and they come in lots of different color options. The gun shoots great and is pretty accurate while it will fit in your wallet pocket.
> 
> ...


I gave some very serious thought to a 380. In reading many articles by so called experts the very small caliber rounds like 22LR, 25 ACP and even 32 ACP get less than stellar reviews as personal defense rounds. The 380 on the other hand gets much better reviews. And 380 ammo is a little cheaper and easier to find than 32 ACP. But I really did not want to make the same mistake twice. And since my daughter had already shot my son-in-law's Tomcat and liked it, I went with the 32. In retrospect, I think I made a good choice especially now that I have a Bobcat that is almost identical to the Tomcat but much more practical to practice with.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Those Berettas are nice little pistols.

I own a Bobcat in .25 ACP and its a pretty nice feeling pocket pistol. I have honestly only shot 10 rounds out of it, but it handled well. I dont know if I will keep it because I really have no use for it, but it is pretty cool to see the design that went into it.

The tip-up barrel is a cool feature that makes using the slide to chamber totally pointless and it really was easy to pull apart and clean too. Probably only took 20 seconds to pull it apart


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Here are some pics of these guns:


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## BerryNut (Dec 29, 2008)

Man, here i was thinking of buying a handgun for the wife but didnt really know, or thought I didnt know anyone with any experience with these smaller handguns. Now I know you have experience we may have to go "research" how she likes them. I was looking at the ruger 38 acp, as well as the beretta.


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## Matt B (Sep 10, 2007)

Same have been looking around for the wife, really thought about the .38. So thanks for the good info. I got a FEN in 9 MAK, it was I could afford. I like the price and size for CCP. Ammo wasn't to hard to find, just a simple functioning gun. 

Ok dumb question. When you tip the barrel up, how does it cycle the round to fire? I think I looked at one of these styles that Tarus makes.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Matt B said:


> Same have been looking around for the wife, really thought about the .38. So thanks for the good info. I got a FEN in 9 MAK, it was I could afford. I like the price and size for CCP. Ammo wasn't to hard to find, just a simple functioning gun.
> 
> Ok dumb question. When you tip the barrel up, how does it cycle the round to fire? I think I looked at one of these styles that Tarus makes.


On the Bobcat and Tomcat the barrel is in the regular position for firing and the rounds cycle through same as any auto loader (except they do not have mechanical extractors so if a round does not fire you have to tip the barrel up and remove the unfired round by hand). There is a lever that can be tripped that releases the barrel and it tips up for inspecting, cleaning or loading or unloading the chamber. Then the barrel is snapped back down for firing. If a round is loaded in the chamber by hand it can be fired by either ****ing the hammer manually and shooting it single action or pulling the trigger double action. When that first round fires the blow back from that round works the action, ejects the spent case and ****s the hammer. Each succeeding round is then fired single action.


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## cfarnwide (Sep 10, 2007)

I bought my wife a Tomcat and we both loved it! I ended up buying one myself so we have two now. Great little guns!

FYI- *7.65mm Browning is the same as .32acp* and _sometimes_ can be more affordable. I always check the price between the two when Im shopping for ammo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_ACP


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

I wanted to share some recent experience and thoughts on handgun shooting and recoil but since my experience is directly related to a couple of old threads (like this one)I have resurrected them and I posted my thoughts at the end of "Taurus 990" in this section.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

Winchester Silver Tip HP ammo has been considered by the experts to be the very best choice in .32 Auto self-defense ammo. I think Speer makes their Gold Dot HP in it too.

I think the 3032 Tomcat is a great little pistol.









Tomcat in a Milt Sparks PCH pocket holster


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

My wife decided she wanted to get a new CC, as her Taurus UL .38 has a little too much "pop" for her to comfortably go out and shoot. So I thought I would give you a little run-down on what/how she decided to go with. We went to Sportsman's, Gunnies, and Cabela's so she could handle a few models, and was pretty set on the S&W Bodyguard, Ruger LCP, or LC9. But thankfully, she wanted to go try a few different guns down at the range before she committed to anything. We went to 'Get Some' and tried all three of her "favorites" in addition to the Sig 238, Diamondback 380 & 9mm, and more. It turns out she hated every one of them. The recoil and trigger pulls on the little pocket pistols drove her nuts and the slides were too hard for her to quickly pull back with her small hands, so we went back to Gunnies to handle a few more. She found the Walther PK380 behind the counter and immediately fell in love with the way it felt in her hand (For those who don't know the PK380, it _nearly_ identical to the Walther P22). So long story short, we bought it. We've been out shooting a couple times now, and she absolutely loves that gun. Now, unlike the revolver, she carries the PK380 everyday in an in-the-waist belt holster and not in her purse.

Here's a quick breakdown of the pros/cons for the PK380 from our experience:
*Pros-*
- crisp single-stage trigger when the hammer is pulled back
- Slide is much easier for her to pull back compared to other guns
- The mag release is the European style lever rather than the push button, (it's easier for her to use)
- It's single/double action
- Fits her small hands very well
- The recoil is very comfortable and manageable for her (it's not much more than the P22), so she actually wants to go shoot it.

*Cons-*
- You need a tool field strip it
- Doesn't have a slide release/lock, you have to pull back on the slide to release it (but that's a con for me, she never uses the release on my guns anyway)


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

I have been contemplating one of these type of guns for a long time now. The 1911 is a bit of a pig to carry. Do any of you have some good time in on the S&W Bodyguard? I really like the feel of that gun and the laser is a nice bonus for such a cheap price.


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

Joel Draxler said:


> I have been contemplating one of these type of guns for a long time now. The 1911 is a bit of a pig to carry. Do any of you have some good time in on the S&W Bodyguard? I really like the feel of that gun and the laser is a nice bonus for such a cheap price.


When my wife and I handled the S&W Bodyguard at the store, it was by far her favorite; HOWEVER, we tried it at the range before purchasing and we both absolutely hated it. The laser was a pain to turn on quickly, the trigger was long and heavy (I know it's supposed to be, but we did not like it at all), and the recoil made it uncomfortable to shoot (think practice). If you look at my post just above, you can see my full review. I will say this though. If you are serious about a pocket pistol, look at the Sig P238HD. That was a very nice gun, but was out of our price range.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Interesting. Do you still concider the PK380 to be a "very small handgun" though? Its footprint seems much larger, equal to a XD40 SC. 

I have a XD40SC, but I am looking for something in the "Very small handgun" range which I concider to be around the LCP size.


-DallanC


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## Moostickles (Mar 11, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Interesting. Do you still concider the PK380 to be a "very small handgun" though? Its footprint seems much larger, equal to a XD40 SC.
> 
> I have a XD40SC, but I am looking for something in the "Very small handgun" range which I concider to be around the LCP size.
> 
> -DallanC


No, it is larger, but actually not by much. It is a single stack, so it's much thinner than the XD40 SC. We wanted something she would be willing to practice with, and we both knew she wouldn't with the Bodyguard or LCP. She only took a few shots from each and was done. So far, I haven't heard her complain about the size of PK380 and she wears it ITW every day.

Another issue she had with the bodyguard was the magazine popped out after every shot. At first I thought it was just a faulty gun, but when we looked closer, we found her middle finger rested on the mag release which caused it to fall out after every shot.

Also, the "double-action only" triggers made for horrible accuracy.

Before buying the LCP or Bodyguard I highly recommend shooting them first.


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