# Thoughts on early season "high country" rifle hunts



## ridgetop

What do you guys think about having a few high country "wilderness" early season rifle hunts.(Sept.1 through Sept.5)
This could open up more opportunity and help redirect people out of the regular draw. 
It seems to be a popular hunt in Colorado.
I think a high country hunt should only be available in some of the wilderness areas.
Here's a map of what we have in Utah.
http://www.wilderness.net/map.cfm?xm...x=4496938.7971
I have scouted and hunted many of these wilderness areas and I have to agree with a few comments about them being very dangerous to hunt in late Oct. if you get caught in a big snow storm.
Of the ones listed, I think only a few would or should qualify.
Here's the one I think could work.
Mount Naomi
Wellsville
Deseret Peak
Lone Peak
Timpanogos
High Uintas
Nebo
Pine Valley

Some may only have 2-10 tags and the Uintas could serve more.
With the new Mule Deer committee starting up, I hope they brainstorm some of these ideas of having a few Late and early season hunts.


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## Lonetree

This should be controversial, but I could go for it.


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## Nambaster

I miss the high country buck hunts up in the Uintas. I never drew the hunt as they only existed for 2 years while I was legally able to hunt, but when I was 8-9 years old I sure loved to read the proclamation and dream about going on those hunts. We should have a North Slope and a South Slope at the least. Why did we do away with those?


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## Mr Muleskinner

I think it would be great. Can't get enough of the Uintas


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## Springville Shooter

.....and a couple tags on the south Wasatch. Plenty of deer, no harm, trophy potential, thousands out of the draw. WINNER. Could you imagine hunting Timp in September? Sign me up.--------SS


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## Fishhuntthendie

I love the idea. I think it should be a limited number of tags but if you spread them out over the Uintas, Wasatch, La Sals, and some of the other more rugged/remote mountain ranges in the state it would definitely provide another fun hunt alternative. This is an absolutely perfect time of year to be in the backcountry/High Uintas throwing flies at trout and finding wilderness bucks that have not started to migrate down out of the high country. I would risk my guaranteed lifetime general unit tag for a chance at one of these hunts. Unfortunately (or fortunately for that matter), I do get a chance every 2-4 years when I draw to have such a hunt backpacking into wilderness areas in Wyoming during this time of year and it is one of the hunts I look forward to every year. Count me in on the idea.


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## Springville Shooter

1-I and Buckmaster will never approve.---------SS


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## archerben

An early September deer hunt already exists on every unit in the state. SS, you don't have to imagine hunting Timp in September. Simply hunt it early September with a bow, late September with a muzzleloader, or both as a dedicated hunter.


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## #1DEER 1-I

Springville Shooter said:


> 1-I and Buckmaster will never approve.---------SS


You're right I won't . There is plenty of current opportunity and you can hunt deed every other year in most areas. We can't have 20 different deer seasons a year just so everyone gets a tag . More people, less habitat, and fewer deer equals fewer tags sorry . Get our deer herd to it's objective of. 410,000 statewide and hold it there for 5 years , then let's talk about the 20 different seasons and 10 tags per buck in the state you opportunity guys want.


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## ridgetop

archerben said:


> An early September deer hunt already exists on every unit in the state. SS, you don't have to imagine hunting Timp in September. Simply hunt it early September with a bow, late September with a muzzleloader, or both as a dedicated hunter.


Of course UBA would fight this. How dare the rifle hunters infringe on your season.
Even though we would be talking a small % of the tags and only a 5 day hunt.


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## ridgetop

#1DEER 1-I said:


> You're right I won't . There is plenty of current opportunity and you can hunt deed every other year in most areas. We can't have 20 different deer seasons a year just so everyone gets a tag . More people, less habitat, and fewer deer equals fewer tags sorry . Get our deer herd to it's objective of. 410,000 statewide and hold it there for 5 years , then let's talk about the 20 different seasons and 10 tags per buck in the state you opportunity guys want.


Think outside the box man and use some simple math.
If you take 1-10% of the total rifle tags(depending on the size of the wilderness area) for this hunt and then say, anywhere from 5-20% of the hunters put in for this early hunt. Then you would have better odds of drawing the Oct. tag.


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## swbuckmaster

archerben said:


> An early September deer hunt already exists on every unit in the state. SS, you don't have to imagine hunting Timp in September. Simply hunt it early September with a bow, late September with a muzzleloader, or both as a dedicated hunter.


^+1


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## swbuckmaster

Give me my %33 equal tag allocations and ill cave


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## Springville Shooter

ridgetop said:


> Of course UBA would fight this. How dare the rifle hunters infringe on your season.
> Even though we would be talking a small % of the tags and only a 5 day hunt.


Oh no, now we've offended the bow hunting special interest group. Try thinking big picture. That means extending opportunity to all sportsmen when possible. I'm all for more bow hunting opportunity as well where it makes sense. Then there's 1-I.....he hates all opportunity because he's a secret PETA mole rat.------SS


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## Packout

Early hunts, late hunts. How do we kill the best bucks the easiest way..... This is the trail people want to travel? 

There are a some mature bucks on a mtn like Timp. It would be fun to hunt them in mid-Sept. Those bucks are easy to kill then. While it would be fun to have the tag, I just see it as another pressure on the most important segment of the buck herd. I don't think it could handle the pressure- especially on the down years. 

Put 1%-10% into an early season-- lets do the math: 
There are 50,000 rifle tags. 1-10% would be 500-5,000 early season permits. 
On the Wasatch West there are 4,000 rifle tags which would equate to 40-400 early season tags. Surely the entire unit does not qualify as "high" country. I think 40-400 tags in Mid-Sept would hurt the mature segment of the buck herd. 
The success rate of this type of permit would be high- probably in the 66-90% range (.6 to .9 deer harvested per permit). Each general season permit yields a harvest of .33 deer (33% success). If they did implement a hunt on General Season units with higher success rates General Season permits would be reduced. In the example above, for every "High Country" permit, we would lose 2-3 General Season permits. This idea reduces the General Season permit numbers by 3-20%. 

I guess you could say I am against strategies that make it easier to kill deer, which in turn reduces hunting opportunity. We kill enough already, at success rates which are very high compared to years past and even other states' comparable hunts. If we are worried about "point competition" issues there are other strategies to address that- such as having one point system/distribution channel instead of 4.

And Scott, you can have the 33% when 33% of the applicants apply for archery as their first choice...... hahaha


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## goofy elk

IMO, Wasatch west and Nebo general deer are two units that NEED tag reduction ..

NO way they could handle an early high country hunt the way things are now.


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## KineKilla

More time spent in the field with family and friends hunting....I'm all for it.

An earlier season would allow me to go deer hunting and still have a week or two to recover prior to the Spike Elk hunt, rather than my two beloved hunts being back to back.


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## Nambaster

Packout said:


> Early hunts, late hunts. How do we kill the best bucks the easiest way..... This is the trail people want to travel?
> 
> There are a some mature bucks on a mtn like Timp. It would be fun to hunt them in mid-Sept. Those bucks are easy to kill then. While it would be fun to have the tag, I just see it as another pressure on the most important segment of the buck herd. I don't think it could handle the pressure- especially on the down years.
> 
> Put 1%-10% into an early season-- lets do the math:
> There are 50,000 rifle tags. 1-10% would be 500-5,000 early season permits.
> On the Wasatch West there are 4,000 rifle tags which would equate to 40-400 early season tags. Surely the entire unit does not qualify as "high" country. I think 40-400 tags in Mid-Sept would hurt the mature segment of the buck herd.
> The success rate of this type of permit would be high- probably in the 66-90% range (.6 to .9 deer harvested per permit). Each general season permit yields a harvest of .33 deer (33% success). If they did implement a hunt on General Season units with higher success rates General Season permits would be reduced. In the example above, for every "High Country" permit, we would lose 2-3 General Season permits. This idea reduces the General Season permit numbers by 3-20%.
> 
> I guess you could say I am against strategies that make it easier to kill deer, which in turn reduces hunting opportunity. We kill enough already, at success rates which are very high compared to years past and even other states' comparable hunts. If we are worried about "point competition" issues there are other strategies to address that- such as having one point system/distribution channel instead of 4.
> 
> And Scott, you can have the 33% when 33% of the applicants apply for archery as their first choice...... hahaha


Unless I am mistaken and this is in regards to the North Slope and the South Slope, these hunts were labelled in the proclamation as low success hunts. Their purpose was to enable rifle hunters to infiltrate very lightly populated areas in the high country and harvest a high country mule deer. These locations were only accessible during the warmer months of the year.

While the hunt does have some trophy potential the purpose of the hunt in its purest form was intended for the experience of pursuing animals in locations that are difficult to access in the month of October. It is a tag designated for the experienced hunter with a broad knowledge of outdoor endurance and resistance to the elements. The divisions own statistics revealed that it was a very low success hunt, but in contrast the successful hunters definitely had to work and earn every bit for the deer that they harvested.

I see this as an opportunity to turn your blood, sweat and tears into a trophy with many failed attempts. Hunters that drew these tags were very selective and many tags went unfilled due to self regulation. It is one of the tags that you would draw purely for the experience.

Population density at such elevations is so low that animals are not in fact vulnerable and are very far from what I would consider to be an "easy kill" as a matter of fact I would consider them to be one of the most difficult harvests in the state.


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## Mr Muleskinner

Nambaster said:


> Unless I am mistaken and this is in regards to the North Slope and the South Slope, these hunts were labelled in the proclamation as low success hunts. Their purpose was to enable rifle hunters to infiltrate very lightly populated areas in the high country and harvest a high country mule deer. These locations were only accessible during the warmer months of the year.
> 
> While the hunt does have some trophy potential the purpose of the hunt in its purest form was intended for the experience of pursuing animals in locations that are difficult to access in the month of October. It is a tag designated for the experienced hunter with a broad knowledge of outdoor endurance and resistance to the elements. The divisions own statistics revealed that it was a very low success hunt, but in contrast the successful hunters definitely had to work and earn every bit for the deer that they harvested.
> 
> I see this as an opportunity to turn your blood, sweat and tears into a trophy with many failed attempts. Hunters that drew these tags were very selective and many tags went unfilled due to self regulation. It is one of the tags that you would draw purely for the experience.
> 
> Population density at such elevations is so low that animals are not in fact vulnerable and are very far from what I would consider to be an "easy kill" as a matter of fact I would consider them to be one of the most difficult harvests in the state.


No two ways about that. Getting to the high country in the Uintas is a chore in of itself and the big bucks up there are about as smart as they come. A person probably has as good or better chance filling a goat tag.


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## Packout

I agree that the roadless areas of the Uintas would be more difficult than other units, but the idea was expressed in this thread to include more units than just the Uintas. 

Back in the 1990s, the Kamas unit had a 90+% success rate on High Country tags while the Uintas was in the 50-60% range. In my first post, I did say the success rate range was 60-90%. 60% is almost triple what the success rate was for the Uintas in 2013. 90% is 4 times higher than general season success rate on the Kamas unit. So for every High Country tag on the Kamas, you'd lose 4 General Season tags. For every HC Unita tag you'd lose 3 general season tags. 

I'd wager the success rate on the La Sals, Timp, Pahvant, Dutton, Odgen, etc... would be towards the 90% more than the 60%. Just my thoughts.....


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## Springville Shooter

My point is a very limited number of tags that would attract very many applicants. Maybe 5-10 tags for each area. Sure the success rates would be high. Thats why hundreds of folks would apply for them. That would ease up pressure on the generals with very little cost to the herd.(try to argue the impact of taking 5-10 deer per unit) Look at the value that one deer on Antelope Island has to everyone who participates in the draws. Many people are happy to wait for a hunt like this and would do so instead of pulling a general each year. Why not offer them that option and let them opt out of competing for the tags that many want to draw each year? If it makes you feel better, take 20 tags out of the general pool to make up for these deer. It still is a good deal because of the sheer number of applicants that these tags would attract. In my humble opinion that is.------SS


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## Springville Shooter

Here's some math by my thinking. Add 20 tags to the Uintas, 10 tags on the south Wasatch, and 20 tags in other areas identified around the state. Remove these tags at a 2:1 ratio from the general pool due to increased success rates. That removes 100 tags total from the pool. I would guess that the application rate would be at least 10:1 for these tags. That would equal 500 applicants minus the100 tags that you removed from the pool and 400 people get a tag who otherwise would have been unsuccessful. So the bottom line is that I am willing to trade 50 deer to have a net gain of 400 spots in the general pools with little or no extra strain on the herds.---SS


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## Old Fudd

Go Buy A Bow...:grin:


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## Mr Muleskinner

I pretty much hunt with a bow exclusively but I still think that this would be a good idea in certain areas.


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## Springville Shooter

oldfudd said:


> Go Buy A Bow...:grin:


Yes, because simply becoming a bowhunter does nothing to manage the supply/demand issue with general deer tags and simply makes it harder to get a bow tag for everyone. I think the idea is to try to RELIEVE pressure instead of increasing it. Utah has great premium tags and great general tags. I think the niche to be filled lies in the mid range tags that take 3-5 years to draw. In other states, these hunts attract a lot of willing applicants from the pool. I personally would gladly go after these types of tags because of my out of state hunts. That would remove my application, making room for the person who wants to hunt Utah each year on one of the generals. I would still kill the same number of deer that I do now, I would just have 4 less tags to do it. That my friends is a net gain for all applicants. The only net loss would be to the state because there would be slightly less tags sold overall.------SS


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## DallanC

There is no way in hell they would add a early hunt as a GENERAL unit tag. It would become yet another LE tag and do nothing to help gen deer odds, only help remove further the big antlered deer people feel are so critical for breeding from units that have worse buck / doe ratios than the other LEs.

If you all want to dream about impossible scenarios maybe something involving Kate Upton would be more productive.


-DallanC


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## Huntoholic

Finally someone said it. Just another LE Hunt............


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## Packout

So this is how the draw works and the outcome of this idea implemented under each point system. 

Preference points pertaining to general season. Permits are distributed to the highest point holders and their 1-5 choices before those with less points get a chance. If you have a hunt with low permit numbers and high demand, people will not draw it as a first choice, but they will earn a point and still draw their 2-5 choices ahead on those with less points. In the end, it will create a systems that takes longer to draw for those with less points and it allows those with more points to draw every year. 

Bonus points- if this went the ltd entry route (which is how it was setup in the past), then the applicants could apply for it in the ltd draw and the also apply for the general season in the general draw. 

Under either circumstance, it will not take application pressure off the general season draw.


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## Nambaster

Kate Upton is undeniably a great scenario to consider, but getting back to the subject. I am just curious about emphasis specifically in the Uintas. As a low success hunt and the ability to draw people from other limited entry hunts you have to consider the amount of difficulty there is to the hunter. Many factors and challenges need to be considered in this hunt beyond your other hunts. 

First of all there is extreme altitude. Then you have lodge pole pines that are so thick visibility is extremely limited. Your daily events of rain and hail at random hours of the day and below freezing temperatures at night in September. This is not one of those hunts where you just drive up the mirror lake highway and shoot a buck off of the road. It's a rare opportunity of preparation and an accumulations of years of experience challenging an individual to perform at maximum levels in order harvest an animal in location reserved only for those who have forsaken civilization. 

Population density is not booming up there and its not like your hunts where the does will lead you to the bucks. You are looking for a secluded animal in an unforgiving atmosphere. Living out of a pack and hunting on a level playing field. 

Could you do the same thing with a bow? Maybe... But locating and patterning an animal in lodge pole pines and rock slides is quite the challenge. Even with the allotment of an entire month locating a buck worth packing out would still be a challenge. 5 days still requires a hunter to put his hours in just to configure a plan to out smart a buck within rifle range.


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## Lonetree

Yes, it would be a LE hunt, something I'm not a huge fan of. Also, I could care less about how it would affect draw odds. I'm going to make a "quality" argument on this one, from my own selfish point of view. I would propose that these hunts would be restricted not only to the high country, as that would be the justification for the early season, but that a certain amount of additional "remoteness" be required also. Areas that require a certain amount of effort to reach. Additionally, these areas should be "average", as far as deer are concerned. Stable, not declining, nothing that is really sought after, with overly monetized antlers. The quality part of this argument, is that the ONLY benefit should be that it is an early hunt, that makes a certain kind of hunt possible, that probably could not occur in Oct, in many places. It should not be about large antlers, or ease.


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## wyoming2utah

The big problem I see is that you either have to exclude the bowhunters from those areas or you make them wear hunter orange….neither is very appealing.


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## Springville Shooter

Packout said:


> So this is how the draw works and the outcome of this idea implemented under each point system.
> 
> Preference points pertaining to general season. Permits are distributed to the highest point holders and their 1-5 choices before those with less points get a chance. If you have a hunt with low permit numbers and high demand, people will not draw it as a first choice, but they will earn a point and still draw their 2-5 choices ahead on those with less points. In the end, it will create a systems that takes longer to draw for those with less points and it allows those with more points to draw every year.
> 
> Bonus points- if this went the ltd entry route (which is how it was setup in the past), then the applicants could apply for it in the ltd draw and the also apply for the general season in the general draw.
> 
> Under either circumstance, it will not take application pressure off the general season draw.


Ok Packout, I'll concede this, deer hunts would have to combined to one pool and the unfair 2nd choice preference scenario would have to be resolved before something like this could be put into play. I would assume that we're headed in those directions anyway, but perhaps that is just another pipe dream.--------SS


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## Mr Muleskinner

I bet bowhunters would be just fine with it the trade off was to have a few areas to hunt elk during the rut. I know I would be.

I would rather see the proposed hunt take place one week earlier though so it doesn't take place during the last two weeks of the archery. I would also prefer that it be limited to just a few spot rather than several and not in the entire Uinta area. Like Lonetree pointed out it should be in very remote areas.


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## Elkaholic2

The biologist I'm working with has proposed this to the wildlife coordinator and got denied.

He also proposed an earlier general rifle hunt for the north slope. To help rifle hunters have access to more bucks before they migrate into wyoming. Denied.

I like the idea of an early rifle hunt. Some ideas as far as restrictions would go. Here are few

The tag is valid:
Only above 9,000 feet
Restricted to within wilderness boundaries
Distance from a road in miles. 2 to 3 miles?

Season dates: would have to start with the L.E. Rifle dates unless they changed the season structure.

Tag quotas: 1 to 10 depending on the unit objectives. 
Obviously this hunt would be limited in tags due to the vulnerability of older bucks. It would provide another opportunity. After all utah is supposedly an opportunity state.


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## Nambaster

This is all sounding great. Just like Lonetree mentioned it is not a trophy hunt. It is a limited entry hunt designed to enable hunters to to access locations of such altitude that weather would not permit in October. Drawing up a boundary based on Road access would be very easy. 

This hunt would not put any bucks on a platter from any hunter. They would have to earn their animal and they would be rewarded with some of the most majestic back drops and scenery that Utah has to offer. A genuine sportsman's adventure producing memories to last a lifetime.


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## DallanC

And think how much the SWF can sell their allotment of the tags for at the next convention!!!


-DallanC


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## Nambaster

It is still a step in the right direction as this is not intended to be a trophy hunt. The benefit to bringing this hunt back is to bring hunters back to their roots of conservation and being in Utah's most sacred rock slides and hidden meadows away from any crowds. 

The bucks coming out of this unit would not be harvested for the purpose of boasting antler width or tine length. The mounts left to taxidermists would be for the genuine purpose of preserving the memory of a truly unforgettable experience. 

Bucks off of the Henries, Bookcliffs, and Paunsagunt are practically protected to maturity. These animals are managed with age objectives and hunters select mature bucks with preferred genetics. This hunt differs from such hunts since the bucks in these locations select such forsaken areas through a process of natural selection. They provide their own protection by selecting low visibility habitat and high elevations.


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## Elkaholic2

Honestly, for deer I would like see a drastic change in season structure and tag allotments depending on the unit. I.e. 

A unit with 2500 tags

Archery ( august). 400 tags
Muzzleloader (mid sept). 400 tags
Early, high country, 1st rifle (mid sept to early October) sept high country 1-10 tags. 1st rifle 790 tags
2nd rifle (mid-late oct) 790 tags
3rd rifle ( late oct- early nov) 100 tags
4th rifle (mid nov- early dec) 1-10 tags

They would have to review and restructure the general elk and L.E. Hunt schedule. But I feel like it would work out. That would give you more of a quality hunt and also provide ample opportunity


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## Elkaholic2

Nambaster said:


> It is still a step in the right direction as this is not intended to be a trophy hunt. The benefit to bringing this hunt back is to bring hunters back to their roots of conservation and being in Utah's most sacred rock slides and hidden meadows away from any crowds.
> 
> The bucks coming out of this unit would not be harvested for the purpose of boasting antler width or tine length. The mounts left to taxidermists would be for the genuine purpose of preserving the memory of a truly unforgettable experience.
> 
> Bucks off of the Henries, Bookcliffs, and Paunsagunt are practically protected to maturity. These animals are managed with age objectives and hunters select mature bucks with preferred genetics. This hunt differs from such hunts since the bucks in these locations select such forsaken areas through a process of natural selection. They provide their own protection by selecting low visibility habitat and high elevations.


Couldn't agree more. This hunt would give more access to bucks that otherwise you wouldn't have! And give a hunt opportunity and quality that you don't receive on any other general or L.E. Hunt.

Quality to me isn't all about the horns. It's about my experience on the hunt! I think this type of hunt is the best out there personally. Having experienced it in colorado several times. You feel rewarded even if you don't harvest an animal. When I participated in a book cliffs rifle hunt. I didn't feel that hunt was a quality hunt by any means.


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## swbuckmaster

Elkaholic2 said:


> Couldn't agree more. This hunt would give more access to bucks that otherwise you wouldn't have! And give a hunt opportunity and quality that you don't receive on any other general or L.E. Hunt.
> 
> Quality to me isn't all about the horns. It's about my experience on the hunt! I think this type of hunt is the best out there personally. Having experienced it in colorado several times. You feel rewarded even if you don't harvest an animal. When I participated in a book cliffs rifle hunt. I didn't feel that hunt was a quality hunt by any means.


So whats stopping you from picking up a smoke rifle and getting after it. I mean you say its all about the experience.


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## Elkaholic2

Who says I don't!


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## Airborne

Swbuckmaster says you don't! He also says you have bad breath and dress poorly, I think you should fight him :grin:


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## Elkaholic2

2011 general muzzleloader in the uintas. I was 5 miles from the nearest trailhead. And the only other people I seen was on the trail coming out. a father and son heading back into a lake to fish for a couple of days! Never seen another hunter in 5 days of hunting. This bucks scores 147 b&c for those that are interested. But to me, he's a reminder of why I hunt and how I spend time in the mountains. That's why I like these kinds of hunts. And they are very possible and doable. The social aspect and politics of utah doesn't allow it! Id love to go into the basin I took this buck with a rifle! But they migrate out of the area the 1st week of October or the first heavy snow whichever comes first. Sometimes I miss them with a muzzleloader depending on the weather. They move into thick nasty pine forest only to be seen again in November down low rutting! I've taken a few other smaller bucks out of the same area in years that I just wanted some deer steaks to break up the pattern of elk steaks! And those high country deer taste better than the sage bucks! So maybe I just have a soft spot for the high country!! And I'm counting down the days to sept 24th! Actually I can start hunting it with a bow august 16th!


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## Elkaholic2

Airborne said:


> Swbuckmaster says you don't! He also says you have bad breath and dress poorly, I think you should fight him :grin:


He would probably kick my #%%} :mrgreen:


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## Critter

Back to the high country wilderness hunts just to let you know that Colorado has a few of them and they work quite well. They are in areas that are 99.99% wilderness and require a lot of hiking or horseback riding to get into them. They are actually almost considered trophy areas on the hunters that draw the tags just because of the size of the bucks that they encounter while back in the high country and a lot of times above the tree line when they find the deer.


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## Elkaholic2

Critter said:


> Back to the high country wilderness hunts just to let you know that Colorado has a few of them and they work quite well. They are in areas that are 99.99% wilderness and require a lot of hiking or horseback riding to get into them. They are actually almost considered trophy areas on the hunters that draw the tags just because of the size of the bucks that they encounter while back in the high country and a lot of times above the tree line when they find the deer.


Don't forget about the others. above 9,000 feet hunts in a few areas. And also 1st season rifle hunts in mid September in a few units that are unit wide.

These hunts provide a quality experience and yes, they do provide a trophy hunt as well. The unit I prefer in colorado has a early rifle hunt with a muzzleloader and archery hunt that coincides with each other! And I've only seen a few hunters that were within a .5 mile of the road. Out side of that I was alone besides a few peak baggers in the top of the basins.


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## meltedsnowman

These hunts should not even be talked about lol. You going to make archers in these areas sport orange? Or close them to archery so 10 rifle tags have the whole area? If the wilderness hunt in sept is what you want, pack a bow or muzzy and head out.


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## meltedsnowman

Colrado has a lot higher deer pooulation as well....


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## Old Fudd

Make the entire State LE. Hunt 10 Months a year.Increase tags on all units.. I love to hunt as much as the next person.. these Bucks and Bulls need some kinda down time.. Hunted for months. run down to get their sheds, poaching..


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## ridgetop

There has been some good discussion brought up and a few not so good.
Here's my thoughts.
I think a high country hunt should only be available in some of the wilderness areas.
Here's a map of what we have in Utah.
http://www.wilderness.net/map.cfm?x...80.7791&xmax=-12569068.8389&ymax=4496938.7971
I have scouted and hunted many of these wilderness areas and I have to agree with a few comments about them being very dangerous to hunt in late Oct. if you get caught in a big snow storm.
Of the ones listed, I think only a few would or should qualify.
Here's the one I think could work.
Mount Naomi
Wellsville
Deseret Peak
Lone Peak
Timpanogos
High Uintas
Nebo
Pine Valley

Some may only have 2-10 tags and the Uintas could serve more.
With the new Mule Deer committee starting up, I hope they brainstorm some of these ideas of having a few Late and early season hunts.


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## ridgetop

meltedsnowman said:


> These hunts should not even be talked about lol. You going to make archers in these areas sport orange? Or close them to archery so 10 rifle tags have the whole area? If the wilderness hunt in sept is what you want, pack a bow or muzzy and head out.


I know a few others have brought this up but it should not be a factor.
The Moose and Mountain Goats are hunted without Orange and the Archery hunters in those areas don't have to where Orange either.
These wilderness, high country hunts would be the same. 
The fact is, there is only a very small % of archery hunters that hunt those wilderness areas after Sept. 1st.


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## ridgetop

Packout said:


> Early hunts, late hunts. How do we kill the best bucks the easiest way..... This is the trail people want to travel?


Packout, 
you know I think your a good egg and all but that comment is funny.

Like others have said, those are not easy hunts.
You saw some of the trail cam pictures I had from last year. We could not turn up any of those big bucks during Aug. and Sept. (Not even one sighting of them)
One was killed during the rifle hunt and another was spotted on opening day of the rifle for about 30 seconds, then never seen again.
We hunt very hard, those high country, wilderness hunts are not easy at all.


----------



## Critter

meltedsnowman said:


> Colrado has a lot higher deer pooulation as well....


I am not talking about the whole state but the areas above 9,000 feet only and in a couple of the areas 10,000 feet.


----------



## Elkaholic2

meltedsnowman said:


> These hunts should not even be talked about lol. You going to make archers in these areas sport orange? by our current laws they would be required to.
> 
> Or close them to archery so 10 rifle tags have the whole area? I have seen areas that they run archery, muzzleloader and limited rifle hunts together. I believe you would see a limited impact by rifle tag holders.
> 
> If the wilderness hunt in sept is what you want, pack a bow or muzzy and head out.


 What about the people that may not feel comfortable using archery or muzzleloader equipment. But they are willing to tackle the backcountry? This would give them an opportunity.


----------



## Elkaholic2

Look at our neighboring states.
Montana backcountry rifle opening date sept 15. (General)
Idaho has a few units open limited rifle hunts as early as August 16. (Limited and general)
Wyoming rifle opening in some areas sept 15. (General and limited)
Colorado has various opening dates for rifle in the high country
Unsure of California 

Montana, idaho, wyoming, kansas, arizona, New Mexico, Oregon, California, colorado, Washington all run rut hunts.

Utah offers a general archery extended hunt through the rut, two muzzleloader limited hunts, and two management hunts during the rut. And one limited rifle hunt during the rut. Did I miss any? Besides cwmu's that get the November hunt date option.

When you look at what other states are doing. I feel like we are getting the shaft of what we are being offered to deer hunters in this state. And no one is being forced to apply for a early high country or rut hunt if our state was to offer them. I know I would be in the application pool for one. Even if it meant I don't get a regular season tag.


----------



## GBell

Nope, I agree with Packout. The opportunity is already there. Pick up a bow and have at it.
Closing a unit to archers so 10 guys can hunt it with a gun increases opportunity how??

While we are looking for ways to increase opportunity and draw odds lets go the route of the old AR-301. If you hunt with a bow for ANY LE hunt, bonus points and waiting periods do not apply. If you are extremely lucky you could hunt the Henry's every year. Of course you couldn't build bonus points applying for one of these hunts but the potential is there to draw every year. Ya just gotta hunt with archery tackle. 5% of each units permits should be a good start until harvest trends could be observed to calculate increases for future hunts.


----------



## Elkaholic2

I don't think you would have to close down the archery hunt for 10 guys if utah restructured there whole approach on deer(buck) hunting. I think this state has more to offer than what they do. It really comes down to a social issue than anything else.


----------



## GBell

ELK, your point was in the works before the Glenwood napkin meetings derailed us in to the cluster#$%^ know as option 2. 

There is no longer a law requiring the rifle deer hunt to start on a specific date.


----------



## Elkaholic2

Yeah option 2 had its effects on everyone. For me I think my unit has benefited from it!

Besides that. I know you can never please everyone. But why not offer something different to people that would be interested in it. Whether it's a rut hunt for trophy hunters or hunters older in age that may want or need an easier hunt. A high country hunt for the bold hearted! Your general October hunts for the ones that just want a tag in their pocket. It would be nice to have something different..


----------



## GBell

Elkaholic2 said:


> Yeah option 2 had its effects on everyone. For me I think my unit has benefited from it!
> 
> Besides that. I know you can never please everyone. *But why not offer something **different to people that would be interested in it.* Whether it's a rut hunt for trophy hunters or hunters older in age that may want or need an easier hunt. A high country hunt for the bold hearted! Your general October hunts for the ones that just want a tag in their pocket. It would be nice to have something different..


 Great, just don't take from another group of hunters and I'd be all for it.


----------



## ridgetop

GBell,
I'm soooo glad that your narrow mindedness is not on this years mule deer committee.
I just hope there's not others on there that have your mindset or nothing new will come to pass.


----------



## GBell

There's one, C'mon part 2, don't let me down.


----------



## GBell

BTW Ridge, exactly what part of "as long as it doesn't take from another" is so offensive?


----------



## Elkaholic2

GBell said:


> Great, just don't take from another group of hunters and I'd be all for it.


So you'd be for it? As long as it doesn't impose on the archery season?


----------



## GBell

And you do realize social hunter management has squat to do with increasing deer herds right?


----------



## GBell

Absolutely 100% ELK!!


----------



## ridgetop

GBell said:


> Nope, I agree with Packout. The opportunity is already there. Pick up a bow and have at it.
> Closing a unit to archers so 10 guys can hunt it with a gun increases opportunity how??
> 
> While we are looking for ways to increase opportunity and draw odds lets go the route of the old AR-301. If you hunt with a bow for ANY LE hunt, bonus points and waiting periods do not apply. If you are extremely lucky you could hunt the Henry's every year. Of course you couldn't build bonus points applying for one of these hunts but the potential is there to draw every year. Ya just gotta hunt with archery tackle. 5% of each units permits should be a good start until harvest trends could be observed to calculate increases for future hunts.


You should really think before you type. This has to be one of the dumbest statement you've made.
Why not have a "habitat tag"? If a guy buys one for say $1,000, then he can hunt any LE without any waiting period or bonus points. That would be the same thing as you just suggested for the bow hunters.
Also, nobody has even said that the bow hunt would close during a high country wilderness hunt. It doesn't on the mountain goat units.


----------



## Elkaholic2

GBell said:


> And you do realize social hunter management has squat to do with increasing deer herds right?


Yes, thats why I think we could offer some extra and different hunting opportunities. If said from the begging that this a social issue on this topic! But we have three other threads going right now on increasing deer populations. Let's leave that out of this one!


----------



## GBell

Run it concurrent with the LE elk hunts.


----------



## GBell

Hook line and sinker Ridge, just waiting on SS to complete the cycle there buddy.


----------



## ridgetop

GBell said:


> And you do realize social hunter management has squat to do with increasing deer herds right?


I never have said it would and never will but good job on trying to highjack and side step another thread.


----------



## GBell

Hijack my ass, you brought up the deer committee.


----------



## Elkaholic2

GBell said:


> Run it concurrent with the LE elk hunts.


I said that earlier in the thread! Without rescheduling the hunts, that's about the only time that would be able to take place without overlap of another hunt


----------



## GBell

Perfect, I love it!


----------



## GBell

C'mon back Ridge, bring SS with you. I won't point out your hypocrisy too much.


----------



## Elkaholic2

GBell said:


> Perfect, I love it!


I call that "reaching across the aisle"


----------



## GBell

And it would work.


----------



## Springville Shooter

How am I a hypocrite there Bell. Enlighten me.----- SS


----------



## Springville Shooter

People who can't have a grown up conversation without defaming others.......what's the word for that? Why does it always have to go in the garbage? So much for big boy discussions. Take a look at Packouts post if you want to learn how to constructively disagree.--------SS


----------



## GBell

C'mon SS, you know darn well every time a bowhunter asks for anything you lose your mind. Yet you support cutting archers season in half on these units and telling a couple thousand of them to go home so a few guys with guns can hunt. Is that not accurate??


----------



## Critter

Without going back and rereading everything that everyone has posted, where is anyone saying to cut the archery hunt in the units that have a early rifle? Other states doe it quite well while archery is going on with no problems. Even Colorado has a early rifle and muzzle loader hunt that go on while the archery hunt is going on. Utah may have to revise their hunter orange requirement but since you can now wear cammo orange where is the problem?


----------



## Springville Shooter

Not even close. I support opportunity across the board. I love the extended and always have been a proponent. I don't support forcing archery as a management tool like SW wants. You read me wrong.------SS


----------



## Springville Shooter

I bowhunt too. Practicing today.-----SS


----------



## GBell

C'mon Critter, really?? Just what I want, a dude popping off from 300 yards over my head at a buck I've been stalking all day. You seriously see no problem with that? Plus the guys that come a few days early an decide they need to check their 0.


----------



## GBell

If I misread you SS I sincerely apologize.


----------



## Critter

GBell said:


> C'mon Critter, really?? Just what I want, a dude popping off from 300 yards over my head at a buck I've been stalking all day. You seriously see no problem with that? Plus the guys that come a few days early an decide they need to check their 0.


We are talking about a limited amount of tags in these areas. I would also bet that 90% of the archery hunters wouldn't even be hunting in a lot of them. I know from what I have seen is that most archery hunters are like rifle hunters and don't travel too far from a road or access point. You can tell this by all the tree stands that are near roads and then amount of trail camera that have been reported stolen over the years.

As I said other states are doing it with no problems either from archery hunters, muzzle loader hunters, or rifle hunters when the high country hunts are going on at the same time.


----------



## GBell

Then run it during the rifle hunt and close these areas to rifle hunters.


----------



## ridgetop

Springville Shooter said:


> How am I a hypocrite there Bell. Enlighten me.----- SS


Come on GBell. the suspense is killing me.


----------



## ridgetop

GBell said:


> C'mon Critter, really?? Just what I want, a dude popping off from 300 yards over my head at a buck I've been stalking all day. You seriously see no problem with that? Plus the guys that come a few days early an decide they need to check their 0.


C'mon GBell, Really?? 
The odds of something like that happening would be very slim.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Springville Shooter said:


> Not even close. I support opportunity across the board. I love the extended and always have been a proponent. I don't support forcing archery as a management tool like SW wants. You read me wrong.------SS


The only reason im for archery is increasing the age class of deer on units by giving the game a chance. I feel there are way too many cannon shooter in utah willing to take a 1000 yard shot.

I also hate rifle hunting in this state with 25 guys on every ridge. If there were less rifle hunters id pick up a rifle and hunt. I like hard horn deer better.

It would also allow me to apply for deer with a rifle and if I didnt draw I could still use a bow and hunt.


----------



## Critter

GBell said:


> Then run it during the rifle hunt and close these areas to rifle hunters.


The title of this thread and the idea is a high country hunt were the majority of time you can't get into it during the regular rifle hunt.


----------



## ridgetop

swbuckmaster said:


> The only reason im for archery is increasing the age class of deer on units by giving the game a chance. I feel there are way too many cannon shooter in utah willing to take a 1000 yard shot.
> 
> I also hate rifle hunting in this state with 25 guys on every ridge. If there were less rifle hunters id pick up a rifle and hunt. I like hard horn deer better.
> 
> It would also allow me to apply for deer with a rifle and if I didnt draw I could still use a bow and hunt.


Scott,
if your really serious about getting back into rifle hunting. I know of a few places that hold a lot of bucks with very little rifle hunting pressure. Of course you will need to trade a few of your spots on the snatch.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Ridge anytime you want to pick up a bow your welcome to come with me.


----------



## GBell

Of course UBA would fight this. How dare the rifle hunters infringe on your season.
Even though we would be talking a small % of the tags and only a 5 day hunt.

^^^ you have no problem in being offended by UBA doing what it's supposed to do ^^^


Yet when I bring up an idea that would help with draw odds
And happens to benefit bow hunters you are glad I'm not on the deer committee. 
Tell me Ridge, in my fictitious proposal what did I ask you to 
Give up that had you convinced it was the dumbest thing I'd written??
Half your season?? A few units?? 

Hypocrisy??


----------



## ridgetop

GBell said:


> Nope, I agree with Packout. The opportunity is already there. Pick up a bow and have at it.
> Closing a unit to archers so 10 guys can hunt it with a gun increases opportunity how??
> 
> While we are looking for ways to increase opportunity and draw odds lets go the route of the old AR-301. If you hunt with a bow for ANY LE hunt, bonus points and waiting periods do not apply. If you are extremely lucky you could hunt the Henry's every year. Of course you couldn't build bonus points applying for one of these hunts but the potential is there to draw every year. Ya just gotta hunt with archery tackle. 5% of each units permits should be a good start until harvest trends could be observed to calculate increases for future hunts.


Here's what you said again. You instantly say.... "Nope" and then change the subject and start talking about how to create more opportunity for bow hunters.
Honestly, I think it's great that your trying to get more for the bow hunter. 
Just don't hijack this thread by changing the subject.
Start your own post about archery opportunities.
We are talking about some different options for the rifle hunter right now, so stay focused on the subject at hand.
Also, I'll take back the comment about "the dumbest thing you've ever said". I know you've said some dumb things in the past, so who really knows.


----------



## silentstalker

I would be against this. Utah is already limited in opportunity across the board. Why would you want to further reduce opportunity in this state. Increasing permit fees and further restricting permits and areas may benefit a few but restricts the many. 

These hunts already exist and have provided opportunity for thousands of hunters each year for years. There are huge bucks, the division sells out the tags, and the resource continues to produce. This hunt is open to anyone willing to hunt it. 

Small reduced number hunts, no thanks.


----------



## GBell

Guilty of everything you just said Ridge. What exactly does my proposal take from any group of hunters??


----------



## delement87

You wants this hunt? Get a bow and go hunt those areas at that time. Last thing I wanna see is a rifle hunter ruin my archery hunt.


----------



## ridgetop

So if this hunt was held the same time as the rifle LE elk hunt in mid-September, then would it be ok with you archery guys?


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

that would be a perfect time Ridge


----------



## silentstalker

I am a dedicated bowhunter. That said, my opposition is not because I am a bowhunter. I am completely against losing more opportunity here in Utah. My bottom line vote would be based on two things. They are, can the herd/animal handle the pressure or would it negatively impact the herd survival? Does this take away from the overall opportunity of the general hunter?

Based on those two questions I would say I do not know how this hunt would impact deer herds in those areas but it's definitely worth a look. What do the biologists say?

Moving the dates to mid sept. at the same time frame as the LE elk would minimize the impact on opportunity if the permits came out of the rifle piece of the pie. I think that would be doable?


----------



## torowy

Just put in for the muzzy


----------



## GBell

I'd support the hunt 100% if it ran during the LE elk season.


----------



## Elkaholic2

Just putting in for archery or muzzleloader may not be an option for someone that doesn't use that method!


----------



## Elkaholic2

After talking with the biologist for the north slope. He finally got his proposal through. It will be in front of the racs in the next year or two. He also stated that it will only be for the Unitas (north slope) as of now. So probably 2016 is the earliest it may start. He did not give me an opening date. The reason he gave me is to give utah hunters a chance to use the resource before the deer move into wyoming. 

I asked about limited quota late rut hunts? He said that it would be a possibility on units at or above objectives both population and b&d. But nothing of that nature is even being talked about right now in the biologist meetings. And he said that would be a social issue more than biological.


----------



## flinger

ridgetop said:


> So if this hunt was held the same time as the rifle LE elk hunt in mid-September then would it be ok with you archery guys?


Those dates would make more sense to me. I would be ok with the north slope unit having this hunt with a few permits.

Since the deer committee was brought up, my advice would be to fix the broken deer point and drawing system while keeping it somewhat simple. When or if that is going to be fixed talking about some of these "special" hunts would make more sense. Just my opinion.


----------



## Nambaster

GBell said:


> I'd support the hunt 100% if it ran during the LE elk season.


Sounds like we have an agreement


----------



## DallanC

You people are crazy if this is intended to be a general season hunt. If they don't change how the gen draw is done, everyone in the state with half a clue should put in for it as their first choice making the draw odds as poor as possible. After a couple years as points stack up for those who put in for it from day one, you will force people on the low end of the pool from *ever* drawing a general deer tag in the state. 

People with max points will get the tag of their choice as their 2nd pick EVERY YEAR while some people will NEVER draw. Imagine people guaranteed a deer tag every year and people guaranteed to NEVER draw a general deer tag.

This has to be a LE tag or they HAVE to change how the general draw is done, otherwise its so easy to game the system people will force out those who don't do it / don't understand how it works.

PS: People are doing this NOW, and its only getting worse.

-DallanC


----------



## Springville Shooter

DallanC said:


> You people are crazy if this is intended to be a general season hunt. If they don't change how the gen draw is done, everyone in the state with half a clue should put in for it as their first choice making the draw odds as poor as possible. After a couple years as points stack up for those who put in for it from day one, you will force people on the low end of the pool from *ever* drawing a general deer tag in the state.
> 
> People with max points will get the tag of their choice as their 2nd pick EVERY YEAR while some people will NEVER draw. Imagine people guaranteed a deer tag every year and people guaranteed to NEVER draw a general deer tag.
> 
> This has to be a LE tag or they HAVE to change how the general draw is done, otherwise its so easy to game the system people will force out those who don't do it / don't understand how it works.
> 
> PS: People are doing this NOW, and its only getting worse.
> 
> -DallanC


Wouldn't it be fair to assume that the current general draw system will have to change eventually? Even though I have 3 points and am rolling in a guaranteed tag each year, the system is totally unfair and needs to be changed in my opinion. If the drawing was based on first choice only preference, then hunts like this would relieve pressure. Based on the current system, you are right on that it does nothing but complicate the problem......and offer killer opportunity to lifetime holders.------SS


----------



## ridgetop

DallanC said:


> You people are crazy if this is intended to be a general season hunt. If they don't change how the gen draw is done, everyone in the state with half a clue should put in for it as their first choice making the draw odds as poor as possible. After a couple years as points stack up for those who put in for it from day one, you will force people on the low end of the pool from *ever* drawing a general deer tag in the state.
> 
> People with max points will get the tag of their choice as their 2nd pick EVERY YEAR while some people will NEVER draw. Imagine people guaranteed a deer tag every year and people guaranteed to NEVER draw a general deer tag.
> 
> This has to be a LE tag or they HAVE to change how the general draw is done, otherwise its so easy to game the system people will force out those who don't do it / don't understand how it works.
> 
> PS: People are doing this NOW, and its only getting worse.
> 
> -DallanC


I agree that the point system needs to change and these special hunts would need to be a LE bonus point deal.


----------



## DallanC

Springville Shooter said:


> Wouldn't it be fair to assume that the current general draw system will have to change eventually?


Absolutely. Problem is people don't understand the problem or they don't care... eventually people enough will be blocked from ever drawing a tag the process will have to be addressed.

-DallanC


----------



## stimmie78

Get a bow you say... I go with my brothers during the archery hunt. But my collarbone injuries and shoulder injuries make shooting a bow painful. Shoot a smoke pole you say... I did that last year. Found lots of snow too. 

From what I'm understanding, this is about creating a small number of tags for limited access areas. Weather and terrain being the limiting factors. Personally I see how tags/hunts like this could be a great opportunity to hunt an area with a rifle that would otherwise see little or no pressure once too much snow hit the trailhead. I flew over the mountains a couple months ago. Know wht I saw? Snow at the access points but little to no snow in the wilderness. Many people think the deer move down once the snow flies. I'm sure many deer stay put at that time. Not everyone shoots a bow. Not everyone shoots a rifle. And not everyone shoots a muzzleloader. We all have a preferred weapon. A high country hunt at a time when said high country was more readily accessible sounds like a logical way to increase opportunity and not be a detriment to the herd. Success rates may be high, but enjoyment rates would be higher regardless of success or not.


----------



## Longgun

DallanC said:


> Absolutely. Problem is people don't understand the problem or they don't care... eventually people enough will be blocked from ever drawing a tag the process will have to be addressed.
> 
> -DallanC


What about choking it down to a two choice, maybe one choice option??

... Maybe limiting the bonus points on these general hunts somehow??


----------



## silentstalker

How about if you get a permit you use the points. If you don't you get one. Seems pretty simple. 

Is the division against the use of preference points?


----------



## Critter

Everyone is making this way too hard. 

Bonus, or preference points should only be used on first choice hunts, after that every tag is up to first come first get. So if you put in for trophy heaven for your first choice and dirty mountain for a second choice and if you have enough points to draw trophy heaven then you get that tag, if not you go into your second choice hunt of dirty mountain with 0 points and need to wait until all the hunters that put in for dirty mountain as a first choice before you can draw a tag.


----------



## swbuckmaster

No you draw a tag first second ir twentieth choice you use your points. Its simple


----------



## Critter

swbuckmaster said:


> No you draw a tag first second ir twentieth choice you use your points. Its simple


You do it that way and nobody is going to put in for second choice.

If you do it the way that I described then your points have no bearing on your second choice hunt and will only be drawn after all the hunters that put in for that unit as a first choice are drawn, then if there are any left over tags then you all go into the tag pool with 0 points for your second choice.

Other states are doing it that way and I have no idea why Utah decided to screw it up the way that they are doing it.


----------



## Huntoholic

Critter said:


> You do it that way and nobody is going to put in for second choice.


So.......

They don't get to hunt then.......


----------



## wyoming2utah

How about we have an early season buck hunt in april! It would require the hunter to be really skilled…he would have to get close enough to identify testicles on the animal! Then, we could really find out who is and who isn't skilled at actually hunting an animal!


----------



## mtnwldman

wyoming2utah said:


> How about we have an early season buck hunt in april! It would require the hunter to be really skilled&#8230;he would have to get close enough to identify testicles on the animal! Then, we could really find out who is and who isn't skilled at actually hunting an animal!


Since this would be a special hunt is there a minimum size?


----------



## Huntoholic

mtnwldman said:


> Since this would be a special hunt is there a minimum size?


Nope, minimum hang distance. Like to the knees..................

That way "mass" will be accounted for.


----------



## wyoming2utah

mtnwldman said:


> Since this would be a special hunt is there a minimum size?


nope&#8230;only requirement is that the buck does NOT have horns! The only hunting porn shown off by these hunters would instantly categorize said hunter into a seriously "needs help" group or as a certified weirdo!

Any hunter that can legally kill a stag in this hunt would quickly vault himself into the hunting elite...


----------



## Critter

Huntoholic said:


> So.......
> 
> They don't get to hunt then.......


So what do they do with the extra tags that are not drawn in the first go around if there are any? Shall we just throw them back into the DOW's pocket and not let anyone have a second choice? If that is the case lets just do away with second choice hunts and only go with the first choice.


----------



## Huntoholic

Critter said:


> So what do they do with the extra tags that are not drawn in the first go around if there are any? Shall we just throw them back into the DOW's pocket and not let anyone have a second choice? If that is the case lets just do away with second choice hunts and only go with the first choice.


I guess the only tags that will not be filled are the ones that are not filled now, private land. To many waiting in line and I think the non-private land permits will go. What it does do is keep the so called horn hunters, who say they are willing to wait 10years for that great tag, from plugging up the general hunts. I think 2 or 3 years of doing that and you will get a good indication as to how the hunters stick floats (big horns vs hunt more).


----------



## flinger

ridgetop said:


> I agree that the point system needs to change and these special hunts would need to be a LE bonus point deal.


Part of the problem is that there are 3 separate draws and 3 separate points for deer tags. I don't see a reason for there even being a "LE" status anymore. All units are limited entry. if there was only one deer draw/application and one deer point, depending on the unit or difficulty of draw, the points could still be applied in a bonus point or a preference point manner. Fix the pref point loophole, multiple deer point/applcation issue, and the lifetime license free for all and the draw would work a lot better than it is now and these special hunt tags would be distributed in a more equitable manner. Jmo


----------



## Springville Shooter

flinger said:


> Part of the problem is that there are 3 separate draws and 3 separate points for deer tags. I don't see a reason for there even being a "LE" status anymore. All units are limited entry. if there was only one deer draw/application and one deer point, depending on the unit or difficulty of draw, the points could still be applied in a bonus point or a preference point manner. Fix the pref point loophole, multiple deer point/applcation issue, and the lifetime license free for all and the draw would work a lot better than it is now and these special hunt tags would be distributed in a more equitable manner. Jmo


I agree with most of your sentiment, but I don't think it's fair to just stick it to lifetime holders. The state screwed up, and I feel that we should do our best to honor the contract. I absolutely hate the unfairness of the program, but it's no fault of the recipients. Something will have to be done eventually because there will become no way to guarantee tags anymore. Sucks big time but whatever happens it needs to be fair. Perhaps a buy out or something?? Who knows but they present a major hang up in the system going forward especially if LE and general LE drawings are combined. That's right...I said general LE because that's what they are.-------SS


----------



## Elkaholic2

Springville Shooter said:


> I agree with most of your sentiment, but I don't think it's fair to just stick it to lifetime holders. The state screwed up, and I feel that we should do our best to honor the contract. I absolutely hate the unfairness of the program, but it's no fault of the recipients. Something will have to be done eventually because there will become no way to guarantee tags anymore. Sucks big time but whatever happens it needs to be fair. Perhaps a buy out or something?? Who knows but they present a major hang up in the system going forward especially if LE and general LE drawings are combined. That's right...I said general LE because that's what they are.-------SS


How many lifetime holders are there. For some reason I can't find any data on it


----------



## Springville Shooter

4000 of them. Enough to dominate the best of the General LE areas.-------SS


----------



## Critter

4000 sounds about right from what I have heard but I would like to see a breakdown on how many are still active. I know of a couple of kids that got LL as a Christmas present back in the 80's and never ever used except for perhaps fishing. I figure that when the rush hit back in the 90's before the shut them off that all of them are still active. But a lot of them are one area hunters only and wont venture out of a know unit. It would be interesting if Amy could pull up some of the actual numbers for LL holders such as how many were sold, how many are still active, and how many also have dedicated hunters status. 

It was kind of funny when they opened up Thousand Lake at how many of them did have LL along with being dedicated hunters and being struck there for 3 years. But most of them are spread out over the rest of the state.


----------



## swbuckmaster

flinger said:


> Part of the problem is that there are 3 separate draws and 3 separate points for deer tags. I don't see a reason for there even being a "LE" status anymore. All units are limited entry. if there was only one deer draw/application and one deer point, depending on the unit or difficulty of draw, the points could still be applied in a bonus point or a preference point manner. Fix the pref point loophole, multiple deer point/applcation issue, and the lifetime license free for all and the draw would work a lot better than it is now and these special hunt tags would be distributed in a more equitable manner. Jmo


There's arround 4000 of them and now there going to start mentoring so dad can abuse the system for his kids and his grand kids. Thats three generations of abuse.

Get rid of the lifers and im all over it.


----------



## Chuck

archerben said:


> An early September deer hunt already exists on every unit in the state. SS, you don't have to imagine hunting Timp in September. Simply hunt it early September with a bow, late September with a muzzleloader, or both as a dedicated hunter.


Amen, There is absolutely no reason for a early season rifle. Way to much hassle logistically as well.


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## ridgetop

Chuck said:


> Amen, There is absolutely no reason for a early season rifle. Way to much hassle logistically as well.


Let me guess, you mainly archery hunt deer?
The whole point to the OP, was to offer more opportunity/options to the rifle hunter and to help slow down the point creep on the LE units.


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## Springville Shooter

Bigotous Bowhunters Association Utah Chapter. Join today!-----SS


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## silentstalker

Its interesting to see you rifle hunters getting all worked up over this. Bowhunters are just hunters. We have "chosen" to use a less successful weapon for the added benefit of longer seasons and opportunity. 
You don't have to like it or even participate. Most of us grew up rifle hunting and switched. Facts are facts though. Opportunity is best found and maximized by giving the most permits to the group that harvest the least. Its simple math. More tags equals more money for the department and less deer killed.

How is the best way to increase opportunity and run people through the draw process? IMO it is not to create a very low numbered tag hunt that does not run more people through the draws. All I see it doing is shifting a few people from one tough draw to another one.

Since your asking for thoughts on the hunt, here are mine. We need to fix the draw problems in regards to deer. People need to use their points if they draw. Once the draw issue is fixed we should then look at ways to maximize opportunity while continuing to recover the herd.

IMO a high country hunt will not create more opportunity and it will do nothing in regards to point creep on LE hunts. There are far too many hunters competing for far too few tags to make a dent in that mess.

All that said, if the biologists say it wont negatively affect the buck to doe ratios and the hunt does not conflict with any others out there I say go for it. I think hunting big bucks in the high country with a rifle would be fun as heck!


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## goonsquad

I kind of dig the idea. Although I would simply put it 5 days before the general rifle, and then adjust the other hunts back 5 days to accommodate it. So Archery and Muzzleloader would start five days earlier than before, then the "high country" hunt would start 5 days before the general hunt. That wouldn't do too much to solve the "problem" of bad weather in the high country, but high country weather can be bad any day of the year. I've had it snow on me in July on backpacking trips. Suck it up.


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## Critter

The bad weather problem is that in October through the rest of the year is that it may snow enough to not let you get back out depending on how you went in and how far. Those snowstorms in the summer very seldom put down enough snow or last much more than a couple of day. A October storm can and does put down enough snow to last until the next July.


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## goonsquad

Very true Critter, although most hunters I've seen in the field would be screwed either way.


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## ridgetop

I like the idea of having it in mid-Sept. during the same week as the LE rifle elk. In many areas above 10,000', the bucks move to lower elevations by the first week in Oct. So any Oct. hunt would not be much of a change from the regular mid-Oct. rifle hunt.


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## swbuckmaster

So are you wanting this hunt to be an early general hunt for the lifers to apply for and get all the tags and have first real crack at the general bucks or is this another LE hunt on top of a general unit?


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## Nambaster

I vote LE on top of the GU


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## ridgetop

swbuckmaster said:


> So are you wanting this hunt to be an early general hunt for the lifers to apply for and get all the tags and have first real crack at the general bucks or is this another LE hunt on top of a general unit?


I think it would have to be a LE hunt. It wouldn't work too well with the messed up preference point system and the currant lifetime and DH tag grab that is going on with the lower numbered tag units.


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