# Wirehairs



## caddis8

I'm not trying to get into a big debate. Myself, my brother, and a good friend are all entertaining the idea of getting a wirehair. I'm doing some research on my own, but I have some questions for the crowd: 

1) I know the word "wirehair" isn't necessairily a breed but a distinction. So, what breeds are there? I don't want to know what the best is, i just want to know what there is. 
There is the Germain Wirehair Pointer, Wirehair Pointing Griffon, Dratthar something or other...

What's the difference? What does Zim have? Oprah is a good looking little pup...so are Travis' dogs. What are they? 

2) I know there is talk about "treborwolf" lines and being great hunters but also having some aggression still in the lines....what breed of line is that?

3) What else is there to know about wirehair varieties? There is a lot of talk about wirehairs and the thing I'm interested in is versatility. I hunt quite a bit of waterfowl, but I still love some good ditch parrot hunting and chukar hunting, ect. Thus this is why I'm looking into it.

4) How does the coat do with burrs and thistles and the like? l love short hairs for that reason. My current lab is acceptable with the burrs and stuff. We had a springer growing up that we had to shave after hunting because she came back looking like a ****leburr...

If you could answer these questions, I'd be very happy...especially without the arguments of my shorthair can beat up your grandma, ect....


----------



## utfireman

I had a GWP, didn't like it and so I GAVE it away. I still see the dog often and I am still not impressed with them. Infact a 3 legged shorthair out hunted that GWP all day long.When we went out the other day and he was chuck full of burs by the time the day was over with.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

utfireman said:


> I had a GWP, didn't like it and so I GAVE it away. I still see the dog often and I am still not impressed with them. Infact a 3 legged shorthair out hunted that GWP all day long.When we went out the other day and he was chuck full of burs by the time the day was over with.


  :roll: You must have bought a dud. :?

Don't let one nasty attitude spoil your sense of reason and good judgment.

I've owned them for 20 years and have had nothing but the best results. Burrs? na. Mean and agressive? Depends on the amount of training and socialization skills you as an owner have. I've seen labs that would EAT you, and I've seen GWPs that would lick you to death and vice versa. GWP, DD It's the SAME **** dog! Don't let anyone tell you different. One just costs a lot more, and comes with more arrogance and the propensity to chase fur. Zims dog is a Treborwolf GWP, and she is a shiny little beeoch. Speaking of Treborwolf, I've owned a Treborwolf dog. THE best dog I've had. Also the best water dog I've ever had too. I will own another one soon. The coat on a wirehair can come as slick as a shorthair and as furry as a griffon, I have a slick and a furry one right now and niether dog has a problem with burrs. Their hair is just to coarse.

If you want to read about the breed go to Treborwolfs websight and check it out. Bob west has a lot of good info on this sight. http://www.drahthaars.net/index.htm

Good luck,

Tex.


----------



## DDGuy

Go to http://www.vdd-gna.org/ Try to just ignore the arrogance. We just can't help it :?


----------



## caddis8

So is the slick coat breed or line specific or is it just luck of the draw? How does each one handle water? 

These are probably dumb questions, but I'm trying to gather the most information as possible....


----------



## DDGuy

> So is the slick coat breed or line specific or is it just luck of the draw? How does each one handle water?
> 
> These are probably dumb questions, but I'm trying to gather the most information as possible....


Some breedings don't produce any slick coated dogs and some lines always will. Most any DD or GWP will always be willing to enter water to retrieve game. That's just the way they are, but some are much better at handling cold water than others. Prey drive, retrieving instinct, mental toughness, coat type, and body mass are all factors involved in a dogs ability to handle cold water. If you are an upland bird hunter that occasionally hunts fair weather waterfowl, a slick coated dog would probably work out fine. If waterfowling is more important to you than that, you would probably want to find a dog with the correct wirehaired coat.

There are no dumb questions when looking for a dog!!

Good Luck


----------



## mulepacker

Caddis,

E-mail me . When will you be in Cache Valley again? I can tell you where there are a few GWP's to look at everything from slick to wired. This is a dog you can't go wrong with if you put a little effort in training and hunt them.


----------



## huntinco

DDGUY...
Who's female was used for the header photo in the litter section of your site?
http://www.vdd-gna.org/litters.php


----------



## InvaderZim

My "answers" in red:



caddis8 said:


> 1) I know the word "wirehair" isn't necessairily a breed but a distinction. So, what breeds are there? I don't want to know what the best is, i just want to know what there is.
> There is the Germain Wirehair Pointer, Wirehair Pointing Griffon, Dratthar something or other...
> 
> What's the difference? What does Zim have? Oprah is a good looking little pup...so are Travis' dogs. What are they?
> 
> Funny you should ask. Turns out a friend of a friend (who just happens to live in Vernal...go figure. :wink: ) recently bought a DD. A discussion ensued and finally the fella pipes up, "Well they have to be different...I payed more!" To be honest that really does sum it up. Find a breeder with good, proven (for what you want) dogs and you wont be dissatisfied.
> 
> 2) I know there is talk about "treborwolf" lines and being great hunters but also having some aggression still in the lines....what breed of line is that?
> 
> As TEX mentioned you can visit Treborwolf Kennels to read more about his dogs and their lineage (he also has a good read on the DD/GWP debate.) Oprah is from his lines (both parents) and I can tell you she is all business. And I'm certain of one thing...she has the most genetic prey drive of any dog I've had. That prey drive makes them great retrievers & natural hunters. But don't let anyone fool ya...you'll get the good with the bad. With that drive you WILL get aggression. They are one tough dog!
> 
> 3) What else is there to know about wirehair varieties? There is a lot of talk about wirehairs and the thing I'm interested in is versatility. I hunt quite a bit of waterfowl, but I still love some good ditch parrot hunting and chukar hunting, ect. Thus this is why I'm looking into it.
> 
> A GWP is a great Duck Dog. maybe not great for sitting on the ice for 10 hours a day...but for a dozen ducks hunts a year, and a dozen rooster hunts...you betcha!
> 4) How does the coat do with burrs and thistles and the like? l love short hairs for that reason. My current lab is acceptable with the burrs and stuff. We had a springer growing up that we had to shave after hunting because she came back looking like a ****leburr...
> 
> Same as any dog, even labs and GSP's...it'll get some burs, but they seem to come out fairly easy.
> 
> If you could answer these questions, I'd be very happy...especially without the arguments of my shorthair can beat up your grandma, ect....


My setter can beat up your tea-cup poodle...


----------



## DDGuy

huntinco said:


> DDGUY...
> Who's female was used for the header photo in the litter section of your site?
> http://www.vdd-gna.org/litters.php


I asked our webmaster in GA and the photo was submitted by Chad Crissup in Oklahoma.


----------



## DDGuy

InvaderZim said:


> My "answers" in red:
> 
> 
> 
> caddis8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1)
> Funny you should ask. Turns out a friend of a friend (who just happens to live in Vernal...go figure. :wink: ) recently bought a DD. A discussion ensued and finally the fella pipes up, "Well they have to be different...I payed more!" To be honest that really does sum it up. Find a breeder with good, proven (for what you want) dogs and you wont be dissatisfied.
> 
> WOW!!! Thanks for clearing that up. Who would have thought it was that simple. I could have been getting the exact same thing for all these years for a lot less money. You're a genius! I feel like a moron
Click to expand...


----------



## InvaderZim

DDGuy said:


> WOW!!! Thanks for clearing that up. Who would have thought it was that simple. I could have been getting the exact same thing for all these years for a lot less money. You're a genius! I feel like a moron


The pleasure is all mine. Trust me! :wink:


----------



## Donttreadonme

Keith even though I have a "dud" GWP I can see plenty of good in him to be willing to buy another. I just don't have the time nor tallent to break Gage of all his bad habits. Like everyone else has said I too have never seen a dog with more prey drive than a GWP. They can hunt big and far or close in, Gage's coat does pick up a lot of burrs but they come out very easily. If you would ever take me up on my offers to hunt when you are out here you could see just how good a poorly trained GWP is and imagine how amazing a good one could be.


----------



## Gumbo

Can you guys talk a little about these dogs' aggression? I'm very interested in one, but need one that's GREAT around young kids.


----------



## Donttreadonme

Gumbo My wirehair and all others I have met are great family dogs. My kids prefer to play with my wirehair over my lab because he is much more mellow around them. Granted my lab is a pup and that is cause for a lot of his bouncyness. If you are in the Cache Valley area you would be welcome to come see my wirehair any time.


----------



## Gumbo

I'm coming up to Cache Valley tomorrow with my hi-energy lab. Mind if I take him out to your favorite pheasant hot spot? 

Is there a previous thread I've missed comparing the GWP with the DD? Gun Dog magazine has a nice article on the GWP several issues back.


----------



## Donttreadonme

What time will you be up here? If I had a favorite hot spot for pheasants I would take you there but all my favorite "wells" have gone dry this season.

And like others have said the GWP and DD are the same **** dog.


----------



## huntinco

DDGUY..

Do you know how I could get in touch with Chad Crissup ?
Thanks
Justin


----------



## DDGuy

donttreadonme said:


> And like others have said the GWP and DD are the same **** dog.


The battlecry of the colossally unimformed


----------



## DDGuy

huntinco said:


> DDGUY..
> 
> Do you know how I could get in touch with Chad Crissup ?
> Thanks
> Justin


PM Sent


----------



## Anaconda Pintler

O|* O|*


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

Are German Wirehaired Pointers and Deutsch Drahthaars the same breed? This is an honest question asked by the novice dog buyer seeking to learn more about his next hunting breed. The answer is unquestionably - YES. In fact, the word "Deutsch" means "German" and "Draht" means "Wire"; and "haar" means "hair". Thus, Deutsch Drahthaar is German Wirehair. Nevertheless, an *American VDD representative, proclaiming to be an expert,* created this mythology about two distinct breeds. It is difficult for *some individuals * to accept the fact that there is only one breed. Belonging to a particular organization, is not a guarantee that you own a better or a worse dog. VDD dogs tested by NAVHDA have achieved no better or worse scores than their American counterparts. The DNA that flows through their bodies is one in the same. The dogs do not differ in DNA; they are not different breeds. Are there differences between individual dogs? The answer is yes. True difference are usually between *breeders* and *not* which organization that you register your dog with. This is where the 'Strain" or "Line" plays a significant role when selecting a pup. Eventually, a kennel's reputation is reflective of it's particular trait. *Not the oganization or "club" you belong too.*

The answer for the colossally arrogant and snobby.


----------



## DDGuy

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Are German Wirehaired Pointers and Deutsch Drahthaars the same breed? This is an honest question asked by the novice dog buyer seeking to learn more about his next hunting breed. The answer is unquestionably - YES. In fact, the word "Deutsch" means "German" and "Draht" means "Wire"; and "haar" means "hair". Thus, Deutsch Drahthaar is German Wirehair. Nevertheless, an *American VDD representative, proclaiming to be an expert,* created this mythology about two distinct breeds. It is difficult for *some individuals * to accept the fact that there is only one breed. Belonging to a particular organization, is not a guarantee that you own a better or a worse dog. VDD dogs tested by NAVHDA have achieved no better or worse scores than their American counterparts. The DNA that flows through their bodies is one in the same. The dogs do not differ in DNA; they are not different breeds. Are there differences between individual dogs? The answer is yes. True difference are usually between *breeders* and *not* which organization that you register your dog with. This is where the 'Strain" or "Line" plays a significant role when selecting a pup. Eventually, a kennel's reputation is reflective of it's particular trait. *Not the oganization or "club" you belong too.*
> 
> The answer for the colossally arrogant and snobby.


Now that we know you can copy and paste from Bob West's website, please tell us what YOU know about the subject!


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

I know everything I've read, seen, done, and experienced from owning and hunting behind the breed for 22 years. That's what I know. The only reason I cut and paste is because it saves time and that is one thing I don't have a lot of. Especially when it comes to arguing with you about stupid things. DD's are great dogs. GWPs are great dogs. Ask the right person and even Labs are great dogs. :lol: 

DDGuy, your probaly a pretty cool guy with pretty cool dogs. (how could you not be?)
So, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

Tex out.


----------



## Greenhead 2

So.... DD would you mind telling us how they are different???? I have only seen a few of each. THE Solt's have some great GWP'S and so does Art Trijillo. I ran a dog in a trial I believe came from DD parents??? and he was the biggest POS I have ever saw work birds, his temperment was great though. Other than a breed warden, your own club and test, what really makes them different??? They have NAVHDA, I believe other than fur test they are comparable??? Its like saying a GSP that runs AKC is better than the one that runs NSTRA. Same blood looks ect... If it walks and talks like a duck, it's a duck.


----------



## silverkitten73

I just love these GWP, V.D.D discussions and just had to jump in. I have owned both - AKC registered GWP's (4 of these)and one VDD registered dog that I bought from the VDD Breed Warden for the Utah Chapter. At least I think he is the breed warden. Anyway - of these five dogs - three of them were top notch dogs. Of these three - they were either pure Treborwolf or a combination that included Treborwolf. 

I was very dissapointed in the VDD organization - but think more than anything the dog I bought came from a breeding that should not have taken place. I know there are several top quality VDD dogs in the area like Kirlan's dog Darko. 

I first owned Caleb's dog Oprah (we called her pepper) - but I sold her to Caleb when she was 3 months old (I think). I would still have her, but like a kid in the candy shop - I couldn't make up my mind on a breed of dog - so I bought Oprah and an English Pointer pup. I took them both home on the same day, and after the attempted circumsion/ unvolutary castration by my wife - decided to keep the EP - due in part to my intense displeasure from the VDD dog that I had owned most recently.

So why did I buy a Treborwolf dog? I beleive they are the best bred versatile german wirehaired blood line available. I have never had one that was mean, and all of them really loved little children. Bob West might be a different kind of feller - but his bloodlines work well for me. When my shorthair gives up the ghost - this is the kind of dog that I will most likely replace her with. Or another EP :wink: . Would I find a good dog that is VDD bred - you bet - but after my dealing with the organization I was very - shall we say disillusioned (sp) :!: They lost me when I had to teach the dog how to track furred game. After that point he would not point or retrieve - all he wanted to do was track, kill and move on. I asked many VDD people for help and no one offered much.

I don't want to bag on the organization - they have good ideals - but I won't ever find myself being part of them again. To me the difference between the two is the VDD is a breeding organization that attempts to keep the bloodlines with pur blood that can be tracked back to German origins. Only after a dog passes three tests is it acceptable to breed. Does it mean a perfect dog that is easy to train - no - but if the right dogs are bred together - maybe.

Alright - please throw criticism my way. My little league football team just finished up today - so I need something new to keep the "burr under my bonnet".


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

Silverkitten,

I feel pretty much the same way you do. There are a lot of nice VDD dogs out there no doubt. But I've had a gut full of dogs that would rather hunt fur than feathers. If I had a buck for every ****, skunk, badger, cat, rat, beaver, muskrat, deer, rabbit, fox, and mink my 13 year old beetch has tangled with, I could buy me another new Browning. And if I had another buck for every cut, gash, scrape, tear, gouge, bitemark, puncture, and hole in my dogs hide that I've had to Vet over the years I could buy you a new Browning too! :x The worst mistake I ever made was LETTING her get her first one! Never again! My dogs go to chasing fur now, they get electrocuted. Just tonight I had Heidi out on a youth hunt up in Howel Valley. There were rabbits EVERYWHERE! But she stayed on task and didn't even look at one the whole night. 8) Just like I wanted. :wink:

Most of the top breedes of GWP's in the nation have steered clear of breeding for fur and sharp aggression. But that's not to say they haven't kept with the tradition of putting top notch "BIRD" dogs on the ground. Treborwolf, Three Devils, Cascade, Mason Kreek, etc, all have very fine breeding programs. For a group (VDD/GNA) to spout off and say that the American strain of GWP is a waterd down crappy strain because it has had no restrictions on breeding, and that the GWP as we know it is a differnet breed of dog from a DD is ludicrous. I dare you to tell Art Trajillo he has crappy dogs.The *same* DNA is in both dogs! It's all science, (in case you don't understand.) The same care and scrutinay has been given to both GWP and VDD breeding programs when it comes to "REPUTIBLE" breeders. And, right on the other hand, poor breeding has taken place on both sides of the wood shed. You can get crap in both strains and you can get great dogs in both strains.

Bottom line: Choose a reputible breeder, with PROVEN lines, be it VDD or GWP, and you'll most likely get a good pup.


----------



## DDGuy

silverkitten73 said:


> I just love these GWP, V.D.D discussions and just had to jump in. I have owned both - AKC registered GWP's (4 of these)and one VDD registered dog that I bought from the VDD Breed Warden for the Utah Chapter. At least I think he is the breed warden.


I'm sorry thet your dog and experience with VDD wasn't a good one. I don't know who you bought your dog from. I'm pretty sure it wasn't me or the local breedwarden. I guarantee if you had asked for help from either of us you would have got it.


----------



## DDGuy

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Most of the top breedes of GWP's in the nation have steered clear of breeding for fur and sharp aggression. But that's not to say they haven't kept with the tradition of putting top notch "BIRD" dogs on the ground. Treborwolf, Three Devils, Cascade, Mason Kreek, etc, all have very fine breeding programs.


Three Devils or v.den drei Teufeln (VDD)



TEX-O-BOB said:


> I dare you to tell Art Trajillo he has crappy dogs.


Now why would I do that? I've known Art for a long long time. He's a great guy. We used to train together some.



TEX-O-BOB said:


> The *same* DNA is in both dogs! It's all science, (in case you don't understand.)


I understand perfectly. Some GWP have identical DNA to DD. Some GWP have DNA that is very close to DD. Some GWP have DNA that is quite different than DD. Of course both of us are just speculating because no DNA study has ever been performed to scientifically determine the differences in DNA of the DD and GWP. So we are both just shooting off our mouths, and for one to accuse the other of not understanding the science is hypocritical.

Using your logic, one could make a very strong argument that the DD, Pudelpointer, and Griffon are just different strains of the same breed. Genetically, they are extreeeemely close. 
It's a misconception that the Pudelpointer and Griffon were fully established breeds that were used along with the DK and Stichelhaar (which were established) in the development of the DD. In fact the DD, PP, and Griffon were developed pretty much simultaneously, using basically the same ingredients. One group decided to follow the breeding principles of Korthals and closed their stud book to all that didn't fit a certain set of criteria. This organization steered their breeding in a certain direction and the Griffon was developed. Another group felt the way to go was to concentrate their efforts on the dogs that were predominantly the result of, or the descendants of direct matings of the pointer and the German water Pudel. They closed their stud book to all that didn't meet a certain criteria. This organization continued their breeding in that direction and the Pudelpointer was developed. Still another group felt that they should continue using whatever they needed to continue to develop the dog they were looking for. This final group of breeders became VDD in 1902, but outcrossing to other breeds continued well into the 20th century. The Griffon, Pudelpointer, and DD all moved forward in different directions with their fundamentally genetically identical dogs. Through their different breed standards, testing requirements, and trait selection, more and more the three breeds became more distinct.

The DD and GWP have different breed standards, testing requirements, and in many but not all cases, trait selection. As breeds they have been going in different directions for some time. I have never said the DD is superior to the GWP, only that as breeds they are different. Better can only be determined by the hunter, and hunters have different needs in a dog.



TEX-O-BOB said:


> And, right on the other hand, poor breeding has taken place on both sides of the wood shed


You're preaching to the choir on that one.

I'm willing to discuss this in an intelligent civil way. I don't have the time or patience to banter with someone that can only say what someone else has said, or play na na na na na your breed club sounds like a disease.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

Well DDGuy, you certainly know yer stuff. I have nothing but respect for you. I'm sure we'd get along in the real world.

I too hate pointless banter. Bla Bla Bla. etc.

But, aren't we *all* just going around repeting what someone else has already said?


----------



## caddis8

Oh good, this brings me back to the original question. 

I don't care if I offend anyone in saying this, but the discussion has been between VDD and GWP. Well I asked about Wirehair Pointing Griffon, and DD guy also brought up the pudelpointer, (there's a breeder near Boise...allen?) which I have looked at and that interests me and I would like to get further information.

What's the difference between a GWP(VDD included), Griffon, PP? I know there are basic differences yes, but what differences are there functionality, trainability, temperment, aggressiveness, retrieving instincts, etc.?


----------



## silverkitten73

Caddis - I looked into a pudelpointer last year. I called Bob Farris who is the main breeder for the breed and obtained several references from him. I think they sound like great versatile dogs, but are a little to large of a dog for me. Most people I talked to told me the dogs were 80 + pound dogs. 

Other than that - if you ask a NAVHDA judge like Mike Bowman for a breed he wopuld recommend - he would tell you to go with either a poodle pointer or wirehair. 

To find out a large amount of information on pudel pointers go to his website. It is a very informative website.


----------

