# Deer herds doing well---



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Gotta love this news release!

Sounds like an increase in Deer permits for Utah hunters 2016!

http://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/1805-deer-herds-doing-well-2016.html


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

In my area I've seen fewer road kill in recent memory... but I have seen a few winter kills without looking too hard. Even though its stayed cold, we've just enough breaks between storms to melt down some of the snow around the oak brush areas. Feb is usually a big snow month so hopefully we get breaks between storms to melt things down a bit.


-DallanC


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Well Goofy might catch you on the road again this hunting season. Maybe the wife can run into me again.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Fudd,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hopefully next time we can visit longer,,,,,:grin:..

All those southern mountains are looking to get hammered with 2-3 feet of snow
over the next 48 hours...:!:....
Looks like even in Loa, they will get 12" to 18" of new snow.....:!:.....


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

DallanC said:


> In my area I've seen fewer road kill in recent memory... but I have seen a few winter kills without looking too hard. Even though its stayed cold, we've just enough breaks between storms to melt down some of the snow around the oak brush areas. Feb is usually a big snow month so hopefully we get breaks between storms to melt things down a bit.
> 
> -DallanC


Technically "winter kill" does not occur until around March and beyond. Deer dying this time of year would be dying due to Fall and Summer deficiencies. There is a lag affect when it comes to seasonal mortality.

If deer go into winter with good fat reserves and are healthy, they can make it through very cold winters with very deep snow. Winter ranges maintain deer, Summer and fall ranges grow deer, and prepare them for the winter.

As for road kill this is very location dependent this time of year(not that I know anything about road kill). Movement drives road kill, and we see this seasonally as well. I just heard from some one that had been counting a stretch of highway in Northern Utah. From Nov 1st through Jan 28th they counted 100 deer hit along the 20 mile stretch of highway. This undoubtedly is a very conservative number given the method of counting, which was daily driving and observation from the vehicle. Based on other studies that have surveyed beyond the side of the road, with better control methods, that number could easily be twice that. Throw in snow plows and other factors, and what you see on the side of road from your car can be at the low end.

My own observations indicate the same thing, a higher than normal rate of road kill for this time of year. Most of it appears to be weather dependent(storm specific). It correlates with weather, and the areas affected are out side the normal Spring, Summer, Fall patterns and routes. It should be a very rare occurrence to have deer hit, let alone seen, in my neighborhood, it typically happens to the East and West of here(Where deer populations exist). But there have been 3 so far this winter. Much of this appears to be driven by the buildup/melt off pattern that we have been seeing. A lot of deer don't appear to be "settled". They move with the melt offs, and get hit after the next storm when they move again.

I had to go back and revise my deer counts for this winter(Ogden and surrounding areas). First issue being that several sub herds showed up about a month late(several things could account for this including the rain we got the end of October). The first counts(December) would have indicated a 70% decline from 2011(last high count). The revised numbers put it at somewhere between a 30%-40% decline. But even after some sub herds showed up, others that had been increasing since ~2009-2010, never showed up at all. Those would get counted as 100% declines, but are not included in my 30%-40% decline number as these are small "remnant" herds. All of these sub herds use to number 200-300 deer from the '30s to the early '90s, including the ones that never showed up this year. The largest sub herd out of all of these was stretching it to get a count of 150 in 2011. The smallest(of the "remnant" herds) sub population that never numbered more than about 75 deer in the late '80s, is at 9 deer.

But yeah, I'm waiting with bated breath for those tag increases we should be seeing based on the DWR's reporting of things.........


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Deer herd doing well? I'm feeling like we are going to see a pretty good winter kill with how much and consistent snow we've had. Temps have stayed okay, but there's been lots of snow this year. Guess we'll see how well they're doing at the end of this winter.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Lots of snow this year???? Try close to normal amounts of snow this year. So far, so good. We'll have to see what Feb-April bring.-----SS


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> Lots of snow this year???? Try close to normal amounts of snow this year. So far, so good. We'll have to see what Feb-April bring.-----SS


 have to agree. So far, conditions are looking real good.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Springville Shooter said:


> Lots of snow this year???? Try close to normal amounts of snow this year. So far, so good. We'll have to see what Feb-April bring.-----SS


Depends on the area. That I-70 split is still holding strong. Many places are well above average. Plenty of places pushing 150% to 200% of normal.

And in those areas that are down around 50%(parts of WY), animals are wintering at higher elevations, in colder temperatures. These conditions have historically driven higher mortality than above average snow fall.

As the current El Nino conditions weaken, we could see precipitation from the South that has dominated that I-70 split decline significantly. But, this could in turn allow low pressure cold to dominate from the North. While that would bring less precipitation, it could bring colder temps.

Spring looks to have the potential to be drier and colder than normal, which is a good thing. Just like all those additional deer tags.................


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> Lots of snow this year???? Try close to normal amounts of snow this year. So far, so good. We'll have to see what Feb-April bring.-----SS


This storm is pounding southern utah....right now in Monroe we have around two feet on the ground! I am worried about the snow totals climbing up and up...compared to the past two years, when deer herds did well, this year will be a disaster in my neck of the woods! I can't remember a year when we had so much snow in the valley...and, this is the first year I am having deer in my yard on a nightly basis! if we continue to get snow like we have so far this winter, I am expecting some winter kill this spring!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I'll say it AGAIN,
Cold, below normal temp's are far harder on big game than the snow!

Now the turkeys are a another story, they are getting hammered.
It's been a few years since I've seen this many dead birds!,,,,This early!


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

This storm is not going to be good for any wildlife. It is very deep even in town. 
Plus, now it is suppose to get very cold for 2 or 3 days. Not a good combo. 
Word is, this is the first snow day for schools in 61 years here. Not sure it that is accurate or not. 
Either way, it's a bunch of snow.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Relax you guys.

Option 2 and coyote bounties are keeping everything in check. 

But seriously it matters how many predators are out there putting increased stress on those critters in the deer snow.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

2full said:


> This storm is not going to be good for any wildlife. It is very deep even in town.
> Plus, now it is suppose to get very cold for 2 or 3 days. Not a good combo.
> Word is, this is the first snow day for schools in 61 years here. Not sure it that is accurate or not.
> Either way, it's a bunch of snow.


What district? I was hoping for a snow day today, but in Sevier School District we didn't get it!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Iron, Beaver, Piute, Millard. All closed today due to snow.

I told my kids last night that Iron County didn't close for snow.
Guess we've gotten soft?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

The southern half of the state is sitting at over 150% almost everywhere. This storm laid about a foot and a half in the valleys and a couple feet on the benches. Hopefully there will be a couple weeks here of no storms and decent temps to get rid of a little bit of this. The next couple days are supposed to be cold, but the 10 day forecast looks good.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Ya, I have every bit of that amount in at my house #1 Deer. 
My back is sore, shovel all nite at my house, Then come to work and do it again. -O,-
I gotta get me a new sno-blower...........

It does show getting better after a couple of days, next week even shows some days in the 50's here. 
That's a big reason I live here. It usually melts off between storms.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

No, I looked out my window and it is average.........


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I heard the fawn studies from various parts of the State are showing high winter mortality due to starvation. That was before this storm and it will only get worse as the winter keeps it up for the next 2-3 months. The herds are estimated at their highest population in 2-3 decades and now here comes Mother Nature to bring us back to reality. Hopefully it won't be as bad as some fear, but it just might be.....


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Around Koosharem the deer have been in 15-20 inches of snow or so for about a month now, and you just added another foot and a half on top of it. The Parkers been buried for a while as well, so I would expect the antelope to take a good hit as well. It's the most snow I've seen in a lot of areas I watch deer during the winter in a long time. I'm hoping for the best, but expecting some pretty bad winter kill with how persistent the snow has been. Like I said temps haven't been real bad with the exception of a couple weeks, but there are places that have been buried in snow for a month now and to add another big storm on top of it, it seems we are in for that reality check.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Yesterday I had to move where I park my ATV w/ plow, because with the moisture on top of the frozen ground it was literally a sheet of ice under it, and was freezing the tire-chains down. I moved it onto some other deeper snow. 2-3" of solid ice on top of the ground where that 'wheeler sat. How are deer expected to get at forage? This is in town too...:sad:


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That's when the deer will start to eat the tops of the sagebrush and buds on the ends of tree branches.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

16-18" in Cedar City/Enoch/Parowan (and it's still snowing a trace), 28" in Enterprise, and single digit temps (4-5*) for the next two nights. Plus we've already seen more Cedar Main Street road kills than we have in the last 10 years. Since Option 2, I've hunted the Pine Valley unit for antelope and the Panguitch Lake unit for deer. So, now which deer unit and antelope unit should I apply for?


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I just checked a couple of weather web sites a minute ago, and they both are showing -1, and breezy tomorrow nite for Cedar City. BRRRRRRR...
I took tomorrow off and we were going to get the snow machines out and go for as ride thru Cedar Breaks. 

I don't think sooooooooooo. 
That plan has been altered.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

2full said:


> I just checked a couple of weather web sites a minute ago, and they both are showing -1, and breezy tomorrow nite for Cedar City. BRRRRRRR...
> I took tomorrow off and we were going to get the snow machines out and go for as ride thru Cedar Breaks.
> 
> I don't think sooooooooooo.
> That plan has been altered.


Haha

December was really cold here.

-16 on Christmas Eve coming off of Fontenelle.

-21 going to work on new years eve.

I guess cold has a different meaning in Wyoming and there are definately not going to be any deer or antelope for hunters next year. ;-)

On, a side note I found this on the weather channel

https://weather.com/news/news/california-coyotes-attacking-cars-may-be-high

Maybe Utah is ahead of the game on Option 2 - Coyotes eating hallucinogenic mushrooms cause them to attack cars. We are all in danger. Run!

:grin:


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I don't mind the cold so much. We fished panguitch lake at -8 and -7 a couple of days after Christmas. 
It's the breezy part I don't like as I get older. 
It does get a bunch colder there than southern Utah. 
I will give u that for sure.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Makes me wonder how Canada Wyoming Montana Idaho Nevada and the Dakotas have any mule deer. And why Arizona California Oregon New Mexico and Texas and Mexico aren't over run with them.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Iron Bear said:


> Makes me wonder how Canada Wyoming Montana Idaho Nevada and the Dakotas have any mule deer. And why Arizona California Oregon New Mexico and Texas and Mexico aren't over run with them.


Go back and read Lewis and Clarks journals. They explicitly state how rare mule deer were to find even back then with hardly any pressure from humans. IMO farmers changed the dynamic reducing predators, changing the land to let mule deer populations rise dramatically. But historically, as far as we know, mule deer never thrived prior to human development.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You also have to realize that the mule deer was a flat land animal like the elk, and pronghorn are and were. But the adapted quite well to the mountains. 

If you also look at a mule deer you can see where they would be well off in flat bushy country. Large ears to hear what is going to eat them, along with their high bouncing gate to get above the brush to see what is around. 

It to civilization to push them up into the mountains.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I bet Lewis and Clark never got off the roads.

I know guys who can find tons of deer with a little hiking even in the worst of times.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> I bet Lewis and Clark never got off the roads.
> 
> I know guys who can find tons of deer with a little hiking even in the worst of times.


Oh IB, at least your passionate about your argument.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I just spent most of the day looking at deer and elk on the Sanpete wintering grounds..

Lots of snow, saw 600 to 700 animals today,
Both deer and elk getting around really good, no crusted snow...
Watched the deer browsing bitter brush everywere, with ease!

Elk getting through the snow feeding with no problems as-well...

All the deer and elk I observed today looked EXTREMELY healthy,
and doing very well! Saw some great bucks today, I'm very impressed.
It's looking good to me, Warming temps in the forecast, and no snow.
This trend continues we might see the best deer hunting (may-be) ever for 2016....


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Goofy thanks for the positive feedback. From what ive witnessed up north the deer seem to be doing very well also. There is always a concern when these storms hit and I think some of the issues from years like 93 and the early 2000s have some overly concerned. So far this year we seem to be getting the best of both worlds; lots of snow pack up high to help our water problem with breaks between storms to melt off the lower elevation stuff to help the deer manage the weather. Hopefully it stays consistent and we dont experience a rally of back to back to back storms and cold to cause a problem. Mother nature has been nice so far hopefully she doesnt get mad haha. I am also looking forward to a great 2016 deer hunt!!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Sure as sheeet isnt like that further north. Our normal winter grounds we watch herds winter on have 4 deer that I could find. Hardly any tracks... they are just gone.


-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Sure as sheeet isnt like that further north. Our normal winter grounds we watch herds winter on have 4 deer that I could find. Hardly any tracks... they are just gone.
> 
> -DallanC


One of the places I stopped and glassed today, spotter on the window mount,
I counted 272 deer, 28 elk.........I never even got out of my Jeep!......


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I was by summit today/evening. Plenty of deer out and about browsing on the sage and other brush. Seemed to be doing okay. If we hit the 40s by the weekend, and the 50th by next weekend as advertised, they will be okay.


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

They will get through the snow! 

What will kill them is when all the shed hunters get out and start pushing them all over gods green earth!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> One of the places I stopped and glassed today, spotter on the window mount,
> I counted 272 deer, 28 elk.........I never even got out of my Jeep!......


I was in a meeting when I posted that... I meant to explain it seems the snow has pushed the deer below their normal wintering spot. They seem to be squarely down in town now.

-DallanC


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Elkaholic2 said:


> They will get through the snow!
> 
> What will kill them is when all the shed hunters get out and start pushing them all over gods green earth!


From what I've seen that's already began for some people. I wish people would hold off on shed hunting for a while.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

DallanC said:


> I was in a meeting when I posted that... I meant to explain it seems the snow has pushed the deer below their normal wintering spot. They seem to be squarely down in town now.
> 
> -DallanC


I've seen more on the U of U campus than in previous years as well.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Lonetree said:


> No, I looked out my window and it is average.........


Well, it certainly makes sense that a guy who can tell about mineral dificiencies by looking at nuts could tell about the weather by looking out the window.

PS....they do make nuts that tell the weather too......but you probably already knew that.-------SS


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> From what I've seen that's already began for some people. I wish people would hold off on shed hunting for a while.


Yep 200 shed hunters a few hours a day on the weekends a couple months a year trump 3000 cougar and 50,000 coyotes in the scare deer and make them use precious fat reserves dept.

I'm sure predators have a calming effect on deer. What's that sound? Oh don't worry it's just the cougar that jumped on your buddy last week and crushed his windpipe until he suffocated. Then ate his ass clean out. 
Oh those yotes? Don't worry about them. All they will do is run you down for 5 miles nipping at your heels and taking bites until you're just plain exhausted. Then you will just fall over and they will start ripping you open while you're still alive.

Again you have nothing to worry about because they are just doing what comes natural. Keep you eyes peeled for a human walking the hills staring at the ground.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Oh IB, at least your passionate about your argument.


Geez, there wasn't any roads out west back then.

Keep up!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

So far, this is looking like a perfect weather year.
And with this last storm, that was followed by strong winds the next day. Which wind swept and opened up many of ridge tops for browsing. Also, although a few people were worried about the cold temps, keep in mind that the coldest temps are at the valley floor and usually it can be 5 or more degrees warmer in the foothills.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Iron Bear said:


> Yep 200 shed hunters out a few hours a day on the weekends a couple months a year trump 3000 cougar and 50,000 coyotes in the scare deer and make them use precious fat reserves dept.
> 
> I'm sure predators have a calming effect on deer. What's that sound? Oh don't worry it's just the cougar that jumped on your buddy last week and crushed his windpipe until he suffocated. Then ate his ass clean out.
> Oh those yotes? Don't worry about them. All they will do is run you down for 5 miles nipping at your heels and taking bites until you're just plain exhausted. Then you will just fall over and they will start ripping you open while you're still alive.
> ...


In the last 15 years there has only been 3 fatal cougar attacks and in the last 25 there have been 11. Exactly zero occurred in Utah. There has never been a documented fatal cougar attack in Utah.

As far as mountain lion attacks have been recorded, British Columbia has 8 and California has 8. Mexico and Colorado tie for second with only 3.

It just does not happen as often as you assume.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

That's not what I'm talking about. 

I'm saying in the grand scheme of things that cause deer to use extra calories. Shed hunters aren't a factor. 

But guys like 1-I are gonna think it's a major issue. And totally ignore that in that regard (burning calories) predators cause infinitely more calories to be burnt and energy expended in avoidance of the two factors. 

Hope this clarification helps.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Now a KSL news article about how well deer herds are doing.

Here is the link:https://www.ksl.com/?sid=38352606

4 strait years of buck to doe ratios improving mirror opt 2 exactly!

Look for an increase in deer hunting permits across the board for 2016...:!:..8)...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I've got to admit, I'm a little disappointed. Not long ago Lonetree would turn a thread about which merino wool socks to buy into a 10 page argument over the true health of deer herds. Now, he's given an actually relevant thread to hammer this out and he's almost silent. 

You disappointed me, Mr Tree.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Not only that TS,
The solid upward trend in success rates and hunter satisfaction levels
are silencing the anti opt. 2 crowd........................................


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Not only that TS,
> The solid upward trend in success rates and hunter satisfaction levels
> are silencing the anti opt. 2 crowd........................................


Which goes to show you how stupid and ignorant most hunters are...they don't care about overall deer herd health; they just care about improving buck numbers! Those added bucks are artificial inflation...the problems that ailed our deer herds and caused them to go down have not been fixed. Option 2 put a bandaid on the problem and caused a bunch of dumb hunters to think things are getting better...the truth is that we are just bad weather away from losing lots of deer. It is a good thing the deer entered this winter in good health...I would wait until this spring before you claim that things are really on the up and up!


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Actually, some of those against the micro-buck-management told you that the deer herd was rebounding before Opt 2 was put in place. Sad state of affairs when the uneducated equate the "deer herd growth" to micro-buck-management. Seriously, people are not going to give credit to the best deer herd growing conditions we have seen in decades? Deer herds in UT, CO, NM, WY, ID, NV, MT are all increasing due to to the favorable growing conditions-- a rebound which occurred BEFORE opt 2 was put in place. I'm certain micro-buck management helped a few units grow a few more bucks, but REGIONAL success rates are very high which means the deer herd increase is not due to micro-buck management. More bucks are killed today under micro-units than were killed under regional units- because the doe had fawns (even before Opt 2 was put in place) and the fawns grew up. The whole deer herd has grown because Mother Nature let it. Enjoy it while it lasts..... 

Interesting to note that the current studies show fawn mortality due to starvation is well above normal.....


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I wonder 

If the deer herd is in such a critical state and we are one bad winter away from disaster. Why do deer look so well today? I recall the 80s, having deer by the dozens down in my pasture. I was inventing methods to keep them out of the horse feed. If we have 350K deer now we must have had a million then. No deer in the pasture other than a few passing by now and then. But I believe those deer live down here all year. 

As to how many buck that are killed. Well I've killed dozens of buck and the DWR only knows about a few. I haven't been surveyed but once or twice up until option 2 went into effect. So I'm guessing just about every deer shot today legally is getting recorded. That wasn't the case in the past. 

And although some units buck harvest may be up. Some units are way way down. Like Monroe. 

Can't argue with the stupid hunters satisfaction. It's at an all time high.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Of course satisfaction is at an all time high, it mirrors the growth in the deer herd. I'm not calling for a repeal of micro-buck management, just hoping to educate some readers that the increase in the deer population is not because of Option 2. There are more bucks to shoot because there are more doe producing fawns which grow into bucks. Isn't that a good thing?!!

As for the Monroe comment- ummm, 60%+ success rate and buck to doe ratios above 20 to 100 and increasing.

And we are always one winter away from disaster. So enjoy it while it lasts and make the most of it. Hopefully that winter is decades away, but history says it will happen sooner than later.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> I wonder
> 
> And although some units buck harvest may be up. Some units are way way down. Like Monroe.


The 2015 reported hunter success rates would suggest a different story on Monroe.

Archery success was 40.2%

Rifle success was 61.7%

Muzzy success was 42.7%

The youth combine seasons success was an astounding 76.2% !!!!!!

I'll take a Monroe deer tag....:!:.......


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Packout said:


> Of course satisfaction is at an all time high, it mirrors the growth in the deer herd. I'm not calling for a repeal of micro-buck management, just hoping to educate some readers that the increase in the deer population is not because of Option 2. There are more bucks to shoot because there are more doe producing fawns which grow into bucks. Isn't that a good thing?!!
> 
> As for the Monroe comment- ummm, 60%+ success rate and buck to doe ratios above 20 to 100 and increasing.
> 
> And we are always one winter away from disaster. So enjoy it while it lasts and make the most of it. Hopefully that winter is decades away, but history says it will happen sooner than later.


I AGREE!,
Opt 2 is not the reason for the OVERALL herd growth we are experiencing ..

What opt 2 HAS done, and is DOING is increasing buck to doe ratios!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Packout said:


> Interesting to note that the current studies show fawn mortality due to starvation is well above normal.....


Seeing this where I live. More alarming, not only are the hill side wintering herds gone, even the city deer have "disappeared", I assume moving further down into more populated areas to find more shallow snow. Even the neighborhood deer we see daily are all gone now. Its very strange. I have drifts in my back yard as deep as 4ft in places... 12" of solid frozen base snow. Its bad, and we still have all of feb to go.

At this point I think we are going to see some major tag cuts for deer come spring.









-DallanC


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Although at any given time a mule deer herd somewhere is having terrible weather. Saskatchewan Alberta? 

And we had plenty of those bad winters from the 30's to the 70's but no disaster that didn't quickly rebound. 

Now fawn mortality and starvation. It's not totally clear what killed the fawn. If a shed hunter can kill a fawn or cause the mother to loose precious fat reserves the a natural predator will have a greater effect. Predators have an effect on body fat. Predators! one thing that was largely kept in check with poison from the 30's until the 70's. 

I'm certain the coyote bounties and improvements in cougar harvest will get no love from guys here either when it comes to the possible culprits to the deer herd increase.

I never said Monroe was terrible hunting. opt 2 has put an end to over harvest on that unit. I think a 60%+ success rate and a b/d ratio still climbing is a good thing for opportunity. 

Some may have loved the days when there was 6000 hunters on Monroe and 600 buck to chase leaving 60 yearling buck left to do the breeding. I know some were able to put their girlfriend on the back of their wheeler and shoot a 4pt after work. Or so they claimed. But hunter satisfaction was at an all time low then. I personally don't think the average hunter is stupid and doesn't know the difference between a good hunt and a piss poor one. And I also can rely on a mans field experience whether or not the deer herd looks good.

I don't need a pencil pusher to contradict what I'm seeing in the real world to make my mind up on what is happening.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> The 2015 reported hunter success rates would suggest a different story on Monroe.
> 
> Archery success was 40.2%
> 
> ...


But how many bucks are being harvested under opt 2 vs the days of unlimited harvest?

I'm thinking its way less today then before. On Monroe, I don't have a clue what's going on elsewhere. It sound like Dallens unit is getting bent over. Not just in winter but he claimed more hunters and less buck with opt 2 in I'm not mistaken.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Packout, the only logical reason for Montana's increase in deer numbers is Utah implementing a flawed hunter management system under option 2. 

Option 2 is literally THAT good that it is increasing deer two states away! Just ask Goofy...

Buck to doe ratios...now that's a scientifically proven way to manage the health of a herd. What could possibly go wrong?


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Iron Bear said:


> Although at any given time a mule deer herd somewhere is having terrible weather. Saskatchewan Alberta?
> 
> And we had plenty of those bad winters from the 30's to the 70's but no disaster that didn't quickly rebound.
> 
> ...


A coyote is not going to chase a deer unless it has intent to kill it or the fawn. Think about it is terms of energy. Energy needs to be conserved and attacks to be efficient. It would be a waste of energy to just go around harassing deer for the coyote.

Nature is all about energy conservation. One of the reasons that sage grouse appear dumb, but if they flew at every opportunity it would result in more dying from predators.

For a coyote it would be more efficient to cover a mile for rabbits than it would be for deer. Coyotes are only an opportunistic predator for deer. Deep snow levels give them more of an opportunity to push deer into a snow drift, but with the abundance of other things to eat (rabbits) I do not think it will be as problematic this year. It takes a lot less energy to find and kill rabbits in the snow, than it does deer.

As far as how a cougar attacks. Most of the time the deer or elk have no idea that the Cougar is even there until it is too late. A cougar is not going to chase a deer for miles, maybe a 100 yards at the max.

Predators deserve to exist in nature, they provide an additional hunter opportunity and are good for the ecosystem. There is more to nature than just providing humans inflated deer populations.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Why is it that the optimum male to female ratio is so far off from nature in mule deer and no other species?

Would you advocate for a 1/10 b/c ratio in moose or elk? A 1/10 r/e ratio for sheep?

Best we can tell if left alone the b/d ratio would be about 4/10. So 50,000 years of evolution got it wrong? Unless you deny evolution.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Seeing this where I live. More alarming, not only are the hill side wintering herds gone, even the city deer have "disappeared", I assume moving further down into more populated areas to find more shallow snow. Even the neighborhood deer we see daily are all gone now. Its very strange. I have drifts in my back yard as deep as 4ft in places... 12" of solid frozen base snow. Its bad, and we still have all of feb to go.
> 
> At this point I think we are going to see some major tag cuts for deer come spring.
> 
> ...


Where do you live Dallan? It's kind of that way down here as well. There's a pretty hard layer under about 10" of fluff. The next 10 days are supposed to be warmer, even hitting 50s and as high as 57 forecasted down here in the Richfield area. I believe most the state has the same type of forecast, this will be a good break that will hopefully melt some of this lower elevation snow and give some relief to our wildlife.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I AGREE!,
> Opt 2 is not the reason for the OVERALL herd growth we are experiencing ..
> 
> What opt 2 HAS done, and is DOING is increasing buck to doe ratios!


duhhh...we all knew that this was going to happen! When you decrease the number of buck tags, the numbers of bucks increase! This is a no-brainer...

What we are arguing and continue to argue is that option 2 was the best plan for deer and for hunters. Why restrict deer tags when doing so doesn't help the deer herd? The only answer is to give select hunters another chance at a big buck. The thing that bugs me is that we already have trophy units...we shouldn't make our general units trophy units too!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Why is it that the optimum male to female ratio is so far off from nature in mule deer and no other species?
> 
> Would you advocate for a 1/10 b/c ratio in moose or elk? A 1/10 r/e ratio for sheep?
> 
> Best we can tell if left alone the b/d ratio would be about 4/10. So 50,000 years of evolution got it wrong? Unless you deny evolution.


What the heck is optimum? We are talking about a ratio that maximizes recruitment and hunting opportunity....what is the optimum in nature? IN a natural situation, unlimited recruitment without mortality is bad. In a management situation, we are trying to maximize reproduction to increase hunting opportunity. You can't do that with lots of bucks in the herd! Remember, bucks don't give birth to fawns. Also, to help protect the herd from catastrophic weather conditions--like drought or severe cold and lots of snow--we need more does in the herd to reproduce.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

The big question I have concerning this winter--and it doesn't look good to me--is how many fawns are going to survive it. We know from the past that our adult survival has almost always been good through the winter, BUT our fawn survival has not. My bet is that we see a pretty good drop in fawn recruitment as a result of this winter's conditions. And, as a result, hunting for yearling bucks and survival of this spring's fawn crop will be lower than normal. Remember, the condition of the does will directly affect how the fawns fair this spring. A doe that loses a lot of its fat reserves will live, but its fawn(s) will not.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> What opt 2 HAS done, and is DOING is increasing buck to doe ratios!


So would a doe hunt... doesn't mean its a good idea though.

-DallanC


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Let's wait for evidence that a higher b/d ratio is detrimental. So far it's been on the up and up.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> duhhh...we all knew that this was going to happen! When you decrease the number of buck tags, the numbers of bucks increase! This is a no-brainer...


Exactly why it passed!


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