# .223 or 22-250?



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm toying the idea of a prairie dog rifle. Something that when I go out to shoot for fun, either prairie dogs or targets, won't cost me an arm and a leg for a few hours of shooting. 

So my question is this- .223 or 22-250? Why? Is there any real, functional difference? 

The rifle will be a bolt action - not sure what frame yet - just toying with the idea right now.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I personally like my 22-250 better than the .223 that I owned. But then the 22-250 is a Ruger #1 varmeter and the .223 was a Ruger Mini14. They will both work fine for parie dogs but I like the few extra fps out of the 22-250 that you can get over the .223. You'll burn a little bit more powder out of the 250 but not really enough to matter.

Lot of help aren't I


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Im thinking with prarie dogs you want velocity... and so I would go 22-250. I have observed a noticeable difference between my .204 Ruger and my buddies .223 in acrobatics. The extra speed in my .204 rounds did a great job of expanding and reaching measurable distances launching prarie dogs. I have not gone side by side with a 22-250 against prarie dogs but I have launched rock chucks and the 22-250 is devastating. If I could trade my .204 Ruger straight across for a 22-250 I probably would, but I am happy with my hand loads and I have it down to where I want it. From my experience the .223 gets the job done and kills the same, but it doesn't entertain to the same extent as the 22-250.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

If you don't handload, one advantage of the .223 over 22-250 is cost of ammo, assuming this craziness comes to an end.

Personally I prefer my 22-250 bolt action over my .223 AR for varmints but either will produce results!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

What are the practical reach-out distances? With big game hunting, I don't shoot past 300 yards because too many variables. But with the p-dogs, I figure it will be a bench rest kind of affair.

I'll be hand loading. But even still, Saturday I was in Cabelas and there wasn't a .223 round to be found. But several boxes of 22-250. Which in all reality, is what got me thinking more about it.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Either will do you well. It will become a matter of personal preference. The 250 will do you a lot better in a hard wind. My .223 is a great P-dogger. I also prefer my .204's over anything. I'm sure this doesn't help. :lol:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> I personally like my 22-250 better than the .223 that I owned. But then the 22-250 is a Ruger #1


I have that exact same rifle! Absolutely the most beautiful rifles out there IMO. I checked prices on them recently and was STUNNED to see them north of $1500 currently. I have my original receipt, $468 I think it was 8)

I LOVE LOVE LOVE the .22-250 caliber. I ran 150 brass through the tumbler this past weekend, getting all ready to do some reloading very soon. My #1 is a scary rifle... the hotter the load the tighter the groups. Its a speed demon for sure. I used to shoot Accurate MR223 powder (that'll tell you how long I've been shooting it hehe) in it but recently switched over to Varget.

.223's are fun, tons around... but the .22-250 edges it performance wise much like the .220 swift will edge out a .22-250. My Rugar #1 has alot of rounds through it, but its still hella-accurate. Eventually if I ever actually "shoot it out", I'll happily rebarrel it and hope to burn that one out as well.

.22-250 is a bit harder on brass due to the sharper neck, I find it cracks quicker than other calibers, but with proper annealing you can get alot of reloadings out of them.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> > I personally like my 22-250 better than the .223 that I owned. But then the 22-250 is a Ruger #1
> ...


I bought mine over 30 years ago and I believe that is about what I paid for mine, and like you said the faster you push the bullet the more it likes it. I actually toned down my reloads to save the barrel and haven't shot it in a few years. I need to bring it out of the safe and try it out again.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I prefer the 223 for small varmints. If you are an explosion nut, you can load or buy 223 ammo with 35-40 grain bullets in the 3800 fps range. This will compare to anything that the 204 can do as far as explosions. The 22-250 will give you a bit more range especially if you use heavier bullets, but I prefer to shoot small varmints in the 100-300 yard range so I can see the action. The 223 will easily perform well out to these ranges. Don't make the mistake of comparing a 223 bolt gun to an AR-15 type rifle. The 223 gains alot from a longer barrel and an accurate bolt action with a good scope. If the question was regarding large varmints such as coyotes, I would give the nod to the 250. You really can't go wrong either way, but the 223 is cheaper to buy and load giving great results out to 300 yards. Just my.02----SS


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Like you I toyed with the idea. My brother in law has a m77 in .223 and I decided to get one. One day I was in to gunnies and they had a Howa ranchland combo. I had heard about Howa making actions for weatherby so I thought since I was getting into varmits and dogs I would try out this howa as a good entry point. Of course they were out of the .223 in the black hogue stocks, so I went with the 22-250 because they were in stock. I love it!! At 100 yards shooting of the hood of a truck I can put bullets inside of holes over and over. The combo comes scoped and for a combo scope it holds zero extremely well. The hogue stock I love, and it takes the abuse from being behind the seat of the truck a lot. I handload and with 37.4 gr Varget and 40 gr vmax its a freaking tack driver. This gun is one of the best purchases I have made. Plus like you said its easier to find components for 22-250 because your not competing with all the newly purchases AR's. If your looking for a good entry point, you won't go wrong with the howa.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Springville Shooter said:


> I prefer the 223 for small varmints. If you are an explosion nut, you can load or buy 223 ammo with 35-40 grain bullets in the 3800 fps range. This will compare to anything that the 204 can do as far as explosions. The 22-250 will give you a bit more range especially if you use heavier bullets, but I prefer to shoot small varmints in the 100-300 yard range so I can see the action. The 223 will easily perform well out to these ranges. Don't make the mistake of comparing a 223 bolt gun to an AR-15 type rifle. The 223 gains alot from a longer barrel and an accurate bolt action with a good scope. If the question was regarding large varmints such as coyotes, I would give the nod to the 250. You really can't go wrong either way, but the 223 is cheaper to buy and load giving great results out to 300 yards. Just my.02----SS


+1

I like the .223 as well for the cheap factor. You can nearly always find brass laying around the range to reload and it ends up being pretty darned cheap to shoot at that point. But I agree that the 22-250 has some great advantages as far as performance on varmints


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

.223 is available is some guns the 22-250 isn't. Pick the gun you like and see what cartridges it's chambered in. Out to around 300 yards there isn't much difference. If you want to go longer the 22-250 is flatter. My Ruger No. 3 in .223 is wicked accurate with a 60gr Hornady VMAX and a max+ load of TAC.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

People should also consider that the .223 caliber is NOT identical to 5.56, there are differences! To get around alot of these, some gun manufacturers do cut chambers slightly larger to allow either ammunition type (sometimes called a Wylde chambering). IMO, this can affect accuracy over a dedicated caliber of either type.

Something to consider and research before buying.


-DallanC


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## Beast (Apr 4, 2010)

Just get one of each!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Woot... all you fellow rugar falling-block shooters, you all are welcome in my hunting camp anytime 


-DallanC


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Like others have mentioned, .223 is pretty hard to find right now. Reloading definitely makes that less of an issue...
I went through this same debate about a year ago and I ended up going with the .22-250 for the speed factor. It really flattens out any varmints I take with it. I bought the Savage 10 Predator with the Accustock.. it has a 1:12 twist instead of the 1:14 like most other 250's come with. It seems to really like the 55 gr pills the best. It's been a great gun, but I think a Tikka in .22-250 would do just as great of a job for about $250 less.

I think you'll have fun with either cartridge! Loading for it has been a blast. Find some Varget and have some fun!

[attachment=0:2ocmkp06]chuck2.jpg[/attachment:2ocmkp06]


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Nice chucks !


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Al Hansen said:


> Nice chucks !


Or as they say in Appalachia, "Whistle Pigs!"

-DallanC


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Al Hansen said:
> 
> 
> > Nice chucks !
> ...


Oh now don't start that argument again Dallan :lol:


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

When this debate comes up - and bearing in mind that both are excellent rounds - I always think of the introduction to the .223 Rem reloading data in the Nosler #4 Guide by Chub Eastman. Chub was a VP with Nosler then and brought up an issue that hasn't been addressed here. To quote:

*"*...Load and shoot, load and shoot in a continuous rhythm that lasted long enough to turn that bucket full of ammo into a scattered pile of empty brass. 
As I stopped to refill the bucket and the adrenaline subsided, I could smell charred wood and made the mistake of touching the barrel with my trigger finger. Another "cooked" barrel.

After rebarreling my trusty 22-250 twice, it was designated as a rock chuck rifle where the shooting was not so fast and furious...

_*The 22-250 and the "Swift" are great varmint cartridges but are not conducive to long barrel life when subjected to the volume of ammunition pumped down range in a "hot" prairie dog town...*_

The .223 Rem. fit all the criteria: availability of inexpensive brass, easy to load, accurate, enough velocity to create "red mist" out to 400 yards, low recoil so you don't develop an afternoon flinch, and more rounds per pound than the 22-250 (43 vs. 29) when you have to fill your pockets and walk over the next hill.

Those who have experienced the "fever" brought on by a steady rest in the middle of an active prairie dog town, can understand the need for the perfect combination. The .223 Rem. with a 40-grain Ballistic Tip at 3,700 fps in a medium weight 24-inch barrel doesn't miss the perfect combination by much.*"*

When it comes to high-volume fast and furious shooting, all that powder in the big 22-250 case that gives it such high velocity also creates heat and gas. And thus it burns out barrel throats at a much higher rate that rounds that burn 1/3 less powder. There is no free lunch here.

Another factor indirectly referenced by Eastman is recoil. The issue of recoil is particularly related to muzzle rise. It doesn't take much muzzle rise to keep you from seeing where your bullets are striking (spotting misses) or see the PD get hit. Unfortunately the 22-250 has enough to usually prevent you seeing such through the normal small field-of-view high XX-selected scopes used for PD hunting. This reason alone has pushed many a big .22-case PD shooter to the .223 and .204.

Some other reasons the .223 has become THE caliber for PDing nationally is that its range and explosiveness has been extended by using plastic-tipped bullets; Rangefinders coupled with new scopes allow hits further out as trajectory can be compensated for; Cases and powder are cheaper - significant when some PD outing use up 500 rounds; AR15 popularity is coupled with the .223 and this system allows you to make successive shots without disturbing the sight picture by cycling the bolt or dropping the block and inserting a round manually. In addition 20-rd mags extend time behind the scope.
The 22-250 is currently used nationally more _in conjunction_ with a .223 for specialty shots and conditions such as extreme range. This keeps barrels from the usual abuse.

While the current ammo crisis has been referenced, and current supplies of .223 are super rare, this has happened before and is not a permanent phenomenon. Therefore I think that it is silly to base what rifle you will be using for years ahead on just what went on in the first half of 2012 (or 2008 for that matter).

Not to denigrate the 22-250, but I think the .222, .223, and .204 offer the best balance of power, barrel longevity, cost effectiveness, and recoil control for high-volume PD shooting - with the .223 being the cheapest to shoot and the .204 matching the 22-250 trajectory.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

When Frisco says it, he says it right! Great Eastman quote too. My PD combo is a couple of accurate 223 rifles and my Cooper in 243 for longer shots. I have had a couple of 22-250's and they are great, but I would compare them more with the 243 than the 223 in PD shooting usefulness.---SS


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There is nothing in the rule book that says that you need to load the 22-250 up to 4,000 fps to get good groups with it or kill a parrie dog. While mine loves the higher velocity rounds I have also found that if I down load it to velocity's that a 222 or 223 shoot that it is just as accurate. 

The nicer thing about the 22-250 is that you can shoot hot loads in it where required or load it down for extended shooting sessions. That is one of the joys of reloading.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =337370871

Just say'n!!!

-DallanC


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I like the heck out of my .22-250. Fun to shoot and very accurate. Varmints are fun to shoot, but I have more fun shooting deer with it. (I know it is not the favorable caliber for most people) 
my daughter shot her first deer with it last season. She leveled him with one well placed shot and filled her tag.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks a ton for all the input guys. I've learned a great deal here. So what I've gathered here is:
-Both 223 and 22-250 are great PD pickers and I really won't go wrong with either
-22-250 can do everything a 223 can do
-223 cannot be loaded as hot as a 22-250, if you really wanted to load hot
-Generally, 223 ammo is more readily available than 22-250
-If using a rapid fire approach, 223 might have a slight edge??? because of overheating potential with the 22-250 if it is loaded hotter??

So let me ask this - I am not a rapid fire kind of guy. Last time shooting with my brother in law, I had my .54 hawken, and he had his AR-15 - and before we knew it, we were fighting over who got to shoot the hawken next and the AR-15 was back in the case. I don't own any semi-autos, because I prefer setting up one nice shot on target or critter. When I get this rifle, it will function pretty much as a single shot, though it will be a bolt action. I would also be reloading my own ammo. So that said, is there any advantage of a 223 over the 22-250?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

So you want to pretty much setup and take a single shot on a target? Click that link two posts above yours and have fun.


-DallanC


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

A Savage Mod.12 in a single shot in either caliber would do you very well.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

Cost of ammo and the range of bullet weights available favors the .223 because it is America's most popular rifle round.

Twist rate is a factor. Nowadays many .223 bolt action rifles come with a 1-9" twist that stabilizes every bullet from 40-grains to 69-grains, and in some instances 75-77-grains. The heavy ones are match BTHPs.

At one time most .223s had a 1-12" twist that really topped off bullet weight at around 60-grains for the usual spitzers. This was because the original M16 had that twist and 55-gr bullets were THE normal weight. Later match competition and military requirements (62-gr M855 BT) were the driving force behind the faster twist rate.
Both twist rates are still offered, but I would get a 1-9" if at all possible in order to make the most out of all available bullet weights. Be sure to check the manufacturer's barrel twist specs before buying.

When it comes to the 22-250, the norm is a slow 1-14" twist that precludes the use of the long, high BC heavy boattail HP match bullets.
If the 22-250 was offered in a fast twist barrel that could make use of these newer match bullets, it would be cool, but alas...


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Frisco Pete said:


> When it comes to the 22-250, the norm is a slow 1-14" twist that precludes the use of the long, high BC heavy boattail HP match bullets.
> If the 22-250 was offered in a fast twist barrel that could make use of these newer match bullets, it would be cool, but alas...


ER Shaw will do a 22-250 barrel in 1-8, 1-9 or 1-12 in addition to 1-14. Around $300 installed on your action. For another $105 they bead blast and blue it. It would be a fun project. One of those long-high-BC .22 bullets with some good velocity would be a long range son of a gun.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Cooky said:


> Frisco Pete said:
> 
> 
> > When it comes to the 22-250, the norm is a slow 1-14" twist that precludes the use of the long, high BC heavy boattail HP match bullets.
> ...


I have a friend who is deep in the benchrest game. One of his guns is chambered in .223 AI with a 1/7" twist. This gun shoots 1/2 MOA at 600 yards with 75grn match bullets....even with me shooting it.  Clay pigeons at that range are only moderately challenging. I think that there is a big future for 22cal in the long range game as appropriate twist rates become more popular to accomodate fantastic heavier bullets. I wonder how long it will be before a viable 1000 yard 22 is mainstream like the 6MM's have become?-----SS


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Savage is already on to this... They have a Model 12 VLP DBM chambered in 22-250 with a 1:9 twist. I think it would be excellent with the heavier bullets for long range shooting. I think the 1:12 in my Savage 10 Predator 22-250 should do well with some 60 gr. V max I found yesterday.

Most other 250's are limited in bullet weight due to having 1:14 twist (tikka, rem varmint)


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Be aware that too fast of a twist can result in bullet disintegration due to extreme rotational forces. I have problems with 40grn bullets flying apart in my #1V at the high end of the velocity spectrum. Faster twist stabilizes longer bullets... but too fast of a twist with too fast of velocity will result in bullets going "poof" soon after leaving the barrel.

Just another thing to consider.

-DallanC


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Be aware that too fast of a twist can result in bullet disintegration due to extreme rotational forces. I have problems with 40grn bullets flying apart in my #1V at the high end of the velocity spectrum. Faster twist stabilizes longer bullets... but too fast of a twist with too fast of velocity will result in bullets going "poof" soon after leaving the barrel.
> 
> Just another thing to consider.
> 
> -DallanC


I did the math to determine the RPM of a bullet from one of my loads after the "poof". (Way too much time on my hands). If I remember right it was over 200,000. No wonder they come apart.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

My FIL experienced the same with 40 grain V Max through his 1:7 twist AR.... Needless to say, he shoots much heavier bullets now without experiencing any problems


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Be aware that too fast of a twist can result in bullet disintegration due to extreme rotational forces. I have problems with 40grn bullets flying apart in my #1V at the high end of the velocity spectrum. Faster twist stabilizes longer bullets... but too fast of a twist with too fast of velocity will result in bullets going "poof" soon after leaving the barrel.
> 
> Just another thing to consider.
> 
> -DallanC


There are a couple of things to understand here. First is that bullet construction is a huge factor in driving light bullets fast in a fast twist barrel. 
There are 2 classes of 40-grain bullets out there:

Basically most of the older 40-grain bullets were designed for the slow twist and slow velocity Hornet. These fare badly when fired at high velocity - particularly in a quick twist barrel.
Starting with the ground-breaking Nosler 40-gr Ballistic Tip, and followed by other plastic-tip high velocity designs like the V-Max, we now have very concentric bullets that can take the stress of high velocity/fast twists and shoot accurately without de-stabilizing. With the solid-base Ballistic Tip in particular, you can shoot it faster than any 220 Swift can manage - or in a 1-7" twist with out any drama as Nosler has proved in testing and real-life feedback.

The truth is that the older bullets were thin-jacketed for Hornet velocities and none too concentric. This applied to other .22 caliber bullets as well. A slow twist is more forgiving of non-concentric bullets. So we see 1-14/1-16" twists to make the rifle maker look good with available bullets at the time.

With very concentric modern bullets and proper jacket thickness, we can now shoot at high velocity with accuracy and stability even in quick twist barrels. Modern bullets make the difference. These plastic-tipped bullets are also rather long-for-weight and that is a stabilization aid as well. As mentioned, the Ballistic Tip is superior to the V-Max because of the solid base and tapered jacket, but the V-Max is concentric at least.

A 1-7 twist is certainly not an ideal 40-grain launch platform, but 1-8"/1-9" seems to bring no issues with new gen bullets. In light bullet testing in RIFLE magazine, Mike Venturino did well with the new generation light bullets in both a 1-8" Rock River AR and a Savage 1-9" bolt .223. The accuracy edge went to the RRA AR15 BTW.

The other factor may be a rough barrel. It is possible that a rough barrel may have an effect on stressing the bullet. As always, individual rifles may show specific preferences.


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