# My new Muzzy



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Well, I burned some of my Cabela's points and picked up a CVA Acura long range muzzle loader.

It came with the thumb hole stock and scope rings so when I got it home I started going through my scopes to see what to put on it, I ran into a BARSKA 6-24x50 new in the box that has been sitting on the shelf for 15 years or so, I don't even remember how or why I got it.

Anyway I wanted to see if the 50mm would fit on the existing rings and it does.

Has anyone used one of these cheap scopes? And do you think it will hold up on my new CVA? I don't really have any use for the scope so I think I will leave it on and try it out since I haven't shot the gun yet. I ordered the CVA 209 breech plug for it and it should be here in the next few days.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

I have no experience with a barska scope, but for me a 6-24x would just be to much scope. A lot of shots could be inside 100 with a muzzleloader, and I don't need that much glass. 
It's also easy for me to fall into the trap of, 'its so easy to see, I can take that shot' when in reality the animal is 300+ yards away. When you start talking in terms of energy on target, to much scope makes it easy to outpace the load. Not many people routinely practice with a ml at 300 yards. And just cause you can make the shot, doesn't always mean you should.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Love the Accura!

I would hate to have a 6x be the lowest power on a primitive weapon, personally. Close shots present themselves and the effective range of that muzzleloader is well within ranges below what the scope is capable. 

Best combos I have seen are 1-4x, 2-7x, and 3-9x.


Anyways - not positive but if you can mount that on a .338, I assume it would hold fine on a ML.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks for the replies, I have had similar thoughts, I always use a range finder when hunting, especially for muzzle loaders and archery, also with rifle if I can't count the tines with my eyes. I was just surprised that the 50mm lens would fit.

Also I have never had a use for a cheap scope.

As far as practicing with the muzzy, I always practiced out to 250 yards with my .54 cal Knight MK85, always want to know where I can shoot long range in case I need a follow up shot if the first one didn't put it down.

Last year I couldn't get the old Knight shooting well do I thought it was time to retire it and get a new one and saw the good reviews of the Acura so I thought I would try one out this year since I drew muzzy deer. If I like it well enough I will take it on my spike and cow elk hunts too.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

I think you'll like the Accura. I got the Accura PR this year (basically the MR, but with a 27" barrel. Upgraded from an older Gooseneck Accura V2 to get the nitride coating. ) I'm punching one ragged hole on 5 shots off bags at 100. 100gr BH209, 290gr TMZ in a yellow harvester crushed rib.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

CVA makes a good ML! 


Justin, the TMZ is a Barnes bullet, right? I've heard great, and bad about it. Let us know how it performs on the real target please.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> CVA makes a good ML!


Today they do... those first ones were a disaster with the spanish damascus steel barrels that were famous for blowing up. They got their crap together though and the current guns are really nice.

-DallanC


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

bowgy said:


> Has anyone used one of these cheap scopes? And do you think it will hold up on my new CVA? I don't really have any use for the scope so I think I will leave it on and try it out since _I haven't shot the gun yet_.


New to muzzle loaders myself, that said, I'd grab a few different projectiles and try them out. I've found that at least one type ive tried produced larger groups then others. Personally I'm going with barnes 250 grain TEZ sabot's.

I've also wondered why muzzle loader scopes are 3-9 power. The wind drift and bullet drop is really exaggerated compared to a centerfire, so 9 power scope has my laughing a little. If i were to put an optic on my Optima V2, i'd go with a fixed 3 power if I could find one. I was thinking about stripping my poor mans ACOG off my AR, but they eye relief wouldn't work anyway.

In the end, (since I can't afford a new optic) I'm opting out of optics altogether and just put on a rear Peep sight mounted at the rearmost screw for a longer sight radius. Less weight to lug around, faster acquisition, and i'm doing about 2-3 MOA on a paper plate at 100 yards on a good day. The factory sights CVA puts on their rifles has me scratching my head to be polite about it. If you do go with a peep, and choose to put a williams WGRS on there, save yourself the headache, and get the lowest front sight post you can, 0.400 high or there about. Don't even bother with the factory front sight posts, it's way too high.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Lone_Hunter said:


> In the end, (since I can't afford a new optic) I'm opting out of optics altogether and just put on a rear Peep sight mounted at the rearmost screw for a longer sight radius. Less weight to lug around, faster acquisition, and i'm doing about 2-3 MOA on a paper plate at 100 yards on a good day. The factory sights CVA puts on their rifles has me scratching my head to be polite about it. If you do go with a peep, and choose to put a williams WGRS on there, save yourself the headache, and get the lowest front sight post you can, 0.400 high or there about. Don't even bother with the factory front sight posts, it's way too high.


 I wish my eyes were that good... I love those types of sights. I always wanted to put a vernier sight on a smokepole but never got around to getting a quality one. But, my eyes are going to crap so fast its scaring me a little.

When they were talkign about allowing scopes I was hoping for a 2x or maybe a 4x limitation... I was surprised at the no restriction thing... but as you said, the trajectory is so rainbow shaped it is really irrelevant for most shooters who dont have a clue what the real drop is of their guns. They stick a 12x on there and think they are going to drop deer at 400 yards. Sure you could sight in for a 400 yard shot but when that deer steps out at 50 yards you better aim at his toenails.

-DallanC


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

taxidermist said:


> CVA makes a good ML!
> 
> Justin, the TMZ is a Barnes bullet, right? I've heard great, and bad about it. Let us know how it performs on the real target please.


Yeah the TMZ is a Barnes. Its a tipped boattail which I felt if I could get a boattail to load\shoot straight in a ml it'll give just a little edge over the TEZ ballistically speaking. Problem with them, was I had the darndest time getting the barnes supplied mmp sabot to load. It was just way to tight in my bore, so I ordered some yellow crushed ribs. While waiting on that order to arrive, I picked up a couple other different bullets including the TEZ. Most shot ok, but once I put on the yellow sabots and shot the TMZ again. I just didn't see any way I was going to top it.

I've shot a few deer with the 250 gr TEZ out of my old Accura and was never able to recover a bullet, and based on the holes expansion was as advertised. With that experience I don't have any reason to believe the TMZ will perform any differently.

Hopefully I get the opportunity to provide a recap of my elk hunt this year and I'll be able to give you some more real world experience.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Lone_Hunter said:


> New to muzzle loaders myself, that said, I'd grab a few different projectiles and try them out. I've found that at least one type ive tried produced larger groups then others. Personally I'm going with barnes 250 grain TEZ sabot's.
> 
> I've also wondered why muzzle loader scopes are 3-9 power. The wind drift and bullet drop is really exaggerated compared to a centerfire, so 9 power scope has my laughing a little. If i were to put an optic on my Optima V2, i'd go with a fixed 3 power if I could find one. I was thinking about stripping my poor mans ACOG off my AR, but they eye relief wouldn't work anyway.
> 
> In the end, (since I can't afford a new optic) I'm opting out of optics altogether and just put on a rear Peep sight mounted at the rearmost screw for a longer sight radius. Less weight to lug around, faster acquisition, and i'm doing about 2-3 MOA on a paper plate at 100 yards on a good day. The factory sights CVA puts on their rifles has me scratching my head to be polite about it. If you do go with a peep, and choose to put a williams WGRS on there, save yourself the headache, and get the lowest front sight post you can, 0.400 high or there about. Don't even bother with the factory front sight posts, it's way too high.


I will mess around with a few options, even try the Millet Red dot that is on the Knight. Most likely I will end up putting one of my Weaver fixed 4 power scopes that I replaced with Leupolds on a couple of inherited rifles. I think I have a 2-8x40 Redfield somewhere in the collection, that might be a good option I had forgot about that one, I took it off of my father in laws 300 H&H Magnum when I got him a little better scope.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I have the same muzzle gun u just replaced Bowgy. 
My Knight is a 54 cal 85 as well. It a a RMEF 1993 numbered edition I got at a banquet. 
I started using it in '06. Have killed some real good bucks with it. 
When I hit a buck with the 348 grain hallow point, they go down in a hurry. 

Have been thinking about replacing it like you are, and going to a scope. 
I looked around last year for a 4x scope, but straight power scopes are getting rare. 
I'll have to get with you on how the Acura shoots for you. 
Have heard good about them.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

We have used the TMZ and TEZ with great success. My dad got his deer last season with the Accura V2 and TEZ and I couldn't believe the damage it caused!

He tried both, the Accura didn't love the TMZ as it was a bit tight in the barrel. They are both the same diameter bullet but the TMZ sabot is .506 vs the TEZ .501 (if I remember correctly) - and CVA seem to be tighter whereas my Thompson fits the TMZ great. The EZ is based on (easy load) I think.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

2full said:


> ...I looked around last year for a 4x scope, but straight power scopes are getting rare...


I've considered putting a Leupold FX-II 4x on one of mine. I would like to look through one at low light to see how much (if any) of an issue that magnification could cause at low light with a 33mm bell. I switched over from a 1x32 on my muzzleloaders and low light performance was good with that scope, but it didn't magnify anything and was really just a glorified tube. 
I'm not making any purchases right now, but I tinker in the offseason to get through winter.


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## T-dubs-42 (Sep 8, 2015)

justismi28 said:


> I think you'll like the Accura. I got the Accura PR this year (basically the MR, but with a 27" barrel. Upgraded from an older Gooseneck Accura V2 to get the nitride coating. ) I'm punching one ragged hole on 5 shots off bags at 100. 100gr BH209, 290gr TMZ in a yellow harvester crushed rib.


This is almost my exact setup except I use a Knight Wolverine. Those 290 Barnes TMZ's hit like a freight train, most humane kills I've ever seen. I have had problems with the Barnes sabots so I might switch them out this year.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

I shoot the Accura V2 with BH209 powder and the 290gr TMZ (with the yellow sabot it comes with) and it shoot excellent out to 200 yards. Thats as far as iv shot, nice tight groups. They go down the pipe a little snug but, I have no problem with them. Everyone i'v dug out of the hillside has expanded nicely..

unfortunately for me, I have never shot an animal with them. Mostly because I'v only muzzy hunted once but, I have shot the piss out of my muzzy. I think its time for me to draw some blood with my muzzleloader. 

Here's to the 2019 draw! :O--O:


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

justismi28 said:


> Yeah the TMZ is a Barnes. Its a tipped boattail which I felt if I could get a boattail to load\shoot straight in a ml it'll give just a little edge over the TEZ ballistically speaking. Problem with them, was I had the darndest time getting the barnes supplied mmp sabot to load. It was just way to tight in my bore, so I ordered some yellow crushed ribs. While waiting on that order to arrive, I picked up a couple other different bullets including the TEZ. Most shot ok, but once I put on the yellow sabots and shot the TMZ again. I just didn't see any way I was going to top it.
> 
> I've shot a few deer with the 250 gr TEZ out of my old Accura and was never able to recover a bullet, and based on the holes expansion was as advertised. With that experience I don't have any reason to believe the TMZ will perform any differently.
> 
> Hopefully I get the opportunity to provide a recap of my elk hunt this year and I'll be able to give you some more real world experience.


Sweet! I've heard stories of Elk dropping on impact, but then getting up and running off. One instance, the 6x6 bull was shot in the chest at 50 yds.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

I'm really interested in that Remington 700 muzz. Can't bring myself to spend that much "YET".


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

7MM RELOADED said:


> I'm really interested in that Remington 700 muzz. Can't bring myself to spend that much "YET".


I assume you mean the "Ultimate" Rem? Or do you mean the actual 700ML they had years back? If you do some research on the Ultimate, they only really achieve that great performance with an ungodly amount of powder... and i still question just how much actually burns during a shot. Apparently the recoil is vicious though. If someone isnt going to shoot the max charge, IDK what advantage the Ultimate has over any other gun then.

The older Rem700ML's are also fantastic guns and you can find decent ones from time to time (only consider the stainless versions, the blued pit too much) if you watch. Put the Badger Ridge bolt mod kit on it and you will have just as good of a gun as the ultimate, minus the extra 50gr powder capability... that most people aren't using anyway.

We have two Rem700ML's in the house, love them dearly.

-DallanC


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

DallanC said:


> I assume you mean the "Ultimate" Rem? Or do you mean the actual 700ML they had years back? If you do some research on the Ultimate, they only really achieve that great performance with an ungodly amount of powder... and i still question just how much actually burns during a shot. Apparently the recoil is vicious though. If someone isnt going to shoot the max charge, IDK what advantage the Ultimate has over any other gun then.
> 
> The older Rem700ML's are also fantastic guns and you can find decent ones from time to time (only consider the stainless versions, the blued pit too much) if you watch. Put the Badger Ridge bolt mod kit on it and you will have just as good of a gun as the ultimate, minus the extra 50gr powder capability... that most people aren't using anyway.
> 
> ...


Ultimate but the older ones are cool. Yes I love Remingtons' of all kinds. I guess the triggers sell me the most. I have a Knight Bighorn now. Had it for years, I also put a conversion bolt kit on it more or less turns it into a disk primer. Yes go stainless.


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## Rdog (May 17, 2018)

7MM RELOADED said:


> Ultimate but the older ones are cool. Yes I love Remingtons' of all kinds. I guess the triggers sell me the most. I have a Knight Bighorn now. Had it for years, I also put a conversion bolt kit on it more or less turns it into a disk primer. Yes go stainless.


I bought a remington ultimate for my elk tag this year. Dallan is right, it kicks like a freight train but it is really accurate and nice having confidence that I can make a shot out to 300 if I need to. I tell myself I would never take a shot that far but we all know in the heat of the moment if a bull of a lifetime presents you with a good shot at 300 you wouldn't pass. I've dialed my loads down to 95 grains by weight of bh209 using 300 grain parker match hunters. I was torn between the CVA and this gun and decided on the ultimate based on some articles I read from people that know a lot more about muzzleloaders than me.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

Rdog said:


> I bought a remington ultimate for my elk tag this year. Dallan is right, it kicks like a freight train but it is really accurate and nice having confidence that I can make a shot out to 300 if I need to. I tell myself I would never take a shot that far but we all know in the heat of the moment if a bull of a lifetime presents you with a good shot at 300 you wouldn't pass. I've dialed my loads down to 95 grains by weight of bh209 using 300 grain parker match hunters. I was torn between the CVA and this gun and decided on the ultimate based on some articles I read from people that know a lot more about muzzleloaders than me.


Just because I'm curious, does anyone here have any real world experience shooting a mature bull at an honest 300 yds with a similar load? I've shot out to 300 on the range to verify\validate my drops, but I'd be curious to hear real world experience. I know that the 'heat of the moment' is a real thing, but it would have to be perfect conditions before I consider taking that shot, even when taken by buck fever. Which, if that's the case why wouldn't I just sneak closer? 
All it took was seeing what a little breeze and how much it drops at 300 to really confirm that its not something I'd be super comfortable with.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Its a ML hunt... get close, its a blast. I had my bull hung up for 30 minutes or so in the juniper trees screaming his head off. I'd chirp with a cow call from time ot time and he would roar back. It was amazing. Finally shot him at about 60 yards.

Forget 300 yard shots... in fact forget 150 yard shots. Get close and experience it up close and personal. Its a crazy rare experience.


-DallanC


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

ANYBODY can kill big game at 200 yards, VERY FEW can kill big game at 20 yards......


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I didn't know this would turn into a long range short range shooting debate.

My closest elk shot was 18 yards my longest was 300 yards.

But back on topic, I was thinking of picking up one of these for the new Muzzy.
https://www.leupold.com/scopes/shotgun-scopes/ultimateslam-3-9x40mm


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## nocturnalenemy (Jun 26, 2011)

bowgy said:


> I didn't know this would turn into a long range short range shooting debate.
> 
> My closest elk shot was 18 yards my longest was 300 yards.
> 
> ...


That's the scope I have on my muzzy. It's spot on out to 150, but because my tightest groupings are with 90 grains of BH209, I hit low using the 200 yard hold. Haven't shot much farther than that yet, but it takes some playing around learn the hold points with your load.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

bowgy said:


> I didn't know this would turn into a long range short range shooting debate.
> 
> My closest elk shot was 18 yards my longest was 300 yards.
> 
> ...


I should clarify, 18 yards was with a bow, 300 yards was with a .300 WSM


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

nocturnalenemy said:


> That's the scope I have on my muzzy. It's spot on out to 150, but because my tightest groupings are with 90 grains of BH209, I hit low using the 200 yard hold. Haven't shot much farther than that yet, but it takes some playing around learn the hold points with your load.


Thanks for the reply.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Well, made the final decision on the scope, I had a Leupold VXII 3-9 x 50 on the shelf and put that on, looks ok.

Problem now is I ordered a breech plug for it for the Blackhorn powder and it doesn't screw in all the way, with the micrometer everything is comparable to the original breech plug but has one less thread. I will have to order another one.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

A lot of places around have the Blackhorn plug. I've seen the silver ones at Scheels, Cabelas, and Al's. The only place I've seen the black one for the nitride guns is at Al's Sporting Goods in Orem. If you are in those area's you could pick one up instead of waiting on an order?


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

justismi28 said:


> A lot of places around have the Blackhorn plug. I've seen the silver ones at Scheels, Cabelas, and Al's. The only place I've seen the black one for the nitride guns is at Al's Sporting Goods in Orem. If you are in those area's you could pick one up instead of waiting on an order?


Thanks, I'm in southern Utah, I checked Sportsman's.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

What kind of ventliner do those have (if any?). Or do you have to replace the entire breech plug when they wear out? I'm hearing you get about 40-50 shots with BVH209 before the vent hole opens up past .035" which causes accuracy to goto crap. 

I bought some BH209 but I've yet to shoot any todate. 

Was reading up on Lehigh Vent liners (which my Rem700ML conversion kit uses) and everyone almost unanimously says they are done by 50 shots w/ BH209. I had not considered that extra expense when I bought a can of BH209 to try. The MFG of my conversion "kit" sells a .036" ZZ pin gauge to test vents for being worn out.

I'm trying to decide how many extra vents to order. I might just stick with PyrodexRS, it's cheap and just always works.


-DallanC


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

DallanC said:


> What kind of ventliner do those have (if any?). Or do you have to replace the entire breech plug when they wear out? I'm hearing you get about 40-50 shots with BVH209 before the vent hole opens up past .035" which causes accuracy to goto crap.
> 
> I bought some BH209 but I've yet to shoot any todate.
> 
> ...


I haven't hear of that, it was recommended that you use a breech plug specifically made for the 209, the new breech plug says Blackhorn on it. It has a large hole in the end that goes into the gun, it looks like most of the powder would go into the breech plug.

I am thinking the same thing and sticking with Triple 7, either loose or pellets and try both.

I am returning the 209 breech plug.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

https://www.badgerridgeind.com/store/p11/LehighVentLiner



> The exact number of shots one will get before they need to replace their breech plug's vent liner will vary. Most folks put a new one in at the beginning of the season check their zero and are good until next season. They start out with an interior diameter around .030 and should be replaced when they open up to .035 to .036. Some folks shoot them until accuracy starts to suffer (which typically happens around .036). That is why we sell .036 ZZ pin gauges. If they pass through the vent liner its time to replace it.


If you google a bit, there are several gunsmiths that are taking normal breeches, drilling them out and tapping them for ventliners. Most people have no idea the flame eats out the diameter of the flash hole... well except for the older sidelock folks, who know to replace nipples often.

-DallanC


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Update, 

I talked to a friend of mine who said that his son in law bought one for his daughter and found out that you need to "crush fit" the plug the first time, maybe I should have known that but there were no instructions with the plug and they said nothing when I requested to return it. 

Anyway, I screwed the plug in by hand as tight as I could then put a nylon strap around it and cranked it down tight with a pair of channel locks, and I felt the crush. I removed the plug and now it screws in and works fine by hand.

Anyone else heard of this or was I just ignorant to the process?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Sounds like lazy ass machining to me. "Crush fit"? What happened to "fits and runs like a fine swiss watch"

But... glad it works for you anyway. I never tighten down breech plugs more than finger tight plus a "smidge". The threads hold a plug from being forced out, ample plug grease on the threads seal gases. I never have to worry about frozen plugs.


-DallanC


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Sounds like lazy ass machining to me. "Crush fit"? What happened to "fits and runs like a fine swiss watch"
> 
> But... glad it works for you anyway. I never tighten down breech plugs more than finger tight plus a "smidge". The threads hold a plug from being forced out, ample plug grease on the threads seal gases. I never have to worry about frozen plugs.
> 
> -DallanC


I had the same thoughts, my friend said that he had read about it somewhere but I couldn't find anything on it. He said what he read claims that the first time crush fit is to match it to your gun so that it has a better fit to help eliminate the gas blow back.

Anyway, I still haven't had time to go out and shoot it, I need to do it soon to get a good load figured out and get some shooting time in.

The only thing I could find on crush fit for CVA was the primer crush fit which doesn't deal with my problem.

I think for safety I will just send this one back and buy one directly from CVA.


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## bossloader (Sep 11, 2007)

I have the optima with the stainless barrel, I have used maxihunters 350 grain, my farthest shot 60 yards, that deer ran 20 yards and was done. I have taken 10-12 deer with 90 grains of powder that bullet, every deer but one has dropped in its tracks


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Sounds like lazy ass machining to me. "Crush fit"? What happened to "fits and runs like a fine swiss watch"
> 
> But... glad it works for you anyway. I never tighten down breech plugs more than finger tight plus a "smidge". The threads hold a plug from being forced out, ample plug grease on the threads seal gases. I never have to worry about frozen plugs.
> 
> -DallanC


A little update, I think the crush fit was a wrong term he used, but since I bought it on line it didn't come with instructions and when I requested a return with reason they didn't say anything, however I went to Sportsmans the other day and "now" they have them in stock, I looked at the instructions and it says to tighten it down with the wrench provided, then loosen it up with the tool and then only hand tighten it, the instructions say that this gives it the tight fit needed. So my friend was right and just had the wrong term.

Anyway it does work but the gun seems to like the 777 powder better than the 209.


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