# I wonder if it takes a degree to pull this off?????



## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

I know that I am not qualified to say if this is right or wrong by most of your standards so think of this picture what you will.........Maybe its the divisions idea of reducing the doe numbers to get more in line with the 15-100 does on the cache???? Maybe they thought the odds of the deer growing up from a fawn were slim to none????? :lol:










Biologists starving mule deer  .......how do you screw this up??????

Good work UDWR!!! Keep up the perfection and you don't have to tell me......I know I don't have a biology degree and I'm sure I am not smart enough to know why the collar is on so tight :!:


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

That's pathetic. I'm saddened by the photo.


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## wapati (Nov 29, 2007)

talk about skewed data.

the money we have received from the sportsman has been put to great use for our new study. it has determined that 95% of collared animals are dieing from....


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Man, that's a sad photo


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

crazy


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## truemule (Sep 12, 2007)

I wonder what ol' silver tongue Don would say about that?


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

truemule said:


> I wonder what ol' silver tongue Don would say about that?


That is UDWR......Don is smarter than this :O•-:

This is NOT the only collar on tight.........and believe me........**** will hit the fan if it isnt fixed quick like :!:


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

"I wonder if it takes a degree to pull this off?????"

Nope, just a nut driver :roll:


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## shaun larsen (Aug 5, 2011)

Haha and to think these are the people in charge of this show....... wow. The more I learn the less impressed I am, and the less respect I have for anyone in the dwr.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Obviously collared when she was a fawn. What makes you so sure it was the DWR?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> Obviously collared when she was a fawn. What makes you so sure it was the DWR?


So Finn, who do you think it was,,,,,,,,,,,,,Aliens. :roll:

Even if the University or a sportsman's group dose anything with
wildlife there is a DWR official involved.............


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Hey Finn-

This is why-
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30853


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

The title of the post is no joke.........I get crucified around here for questioning the division......I get told how perfect and smart they are......."they obviously know what they are doing, they are experts" blah blah

There is no excuse for what they have done.......and like goofy says ANYTIME ANYONE has anything to do with wildlife research be a university, SFW, DWR is right there........You know that Finn...........

Read Cory's Post.......

Nice try though........I figured many of you will discredit me all you can........I wont shut up on this deal.......


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## OKEE (Jan 3, 2008)

Who Took the picture? I would like to see the full body. I'm not seeing the starving part? Deer hair is pretty thick ,it would have to be snug to stay on. rebel have you reported this or are we just throwing stones.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*RE: The gears in several poster's heads need oil.*

And, what makes you think the person that put it on is the one that's accountable for equipment failure? Unless it's an egregious mistake, my assumption would be that the adjustable collar failed. Unless of course I was looking for a reason to vilify someone or something in order to be right.

Come on, Travis, you've got better deductive reasoning skills than that.

I'll tell ya what. Since this is picture has obviously brought speculation out of the woodwork, why don't we all come up with a probability percentage to represent the likelihood of it being a mistake vs. a slip collar not working properly.

I'll go first. I think the likelihood of this being the result of ignorance and stupidity is less than *2%*.

For you non-deductive reasoners, that leaves a 98% probability that it was equipment failure.

Next guess?


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I think it is too tight. The only thing this deer has to look forward to is not finding as much food this winter and loosing a little bit of weight. That will alleviate some of the tightness around the neck. In all seriousness it looks like someone should loosen that collar a few notches.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

The DWR did a study a few yrs back that concluded. One hour in a classroom up at USU is equivalent to 2000 hrs in the field. So biologist and bio students are smarter than the rest of us after their first semester. 

If that collar kills that deer it wouldn't matter. That deer would have died anyway from habitat loss. So its compensatory. :mrgreen:


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Tree this is what I find comical.... IF SFW would have been to blame you guys would have lynched don by now....Tony abbot would have released a radio show...think about what you guys would be doing right now IF it was a group you all don't agree with.....but because it's the UDWR most of you will defend, make excuses, pass blame etc...
I personally don't care....It might be an equipment failure, might be an honest mistake, but to me it's unacceptable!!! I do have a feeling they will be take care of it with a rifle and becuause of how they are it will be swept under the rug....


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

come on natrl -- who took the picture? Where'd it come from?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> think about what you guys would be doing right now IF it was a group you all don't agree with.....but because it's the UDWR most of you will defend, make excuses, pass blame etc...
> I personally don't care....It might be an equipment failure, might be an honest mistake, but to me it's unacceptable!!! I do have a feeling they will be take care of it with a rifle and becuause of how they are it will be swept under the rug....


This is where we differ....to me, I don't care if it is an honest mistake, I don't care if it is an equipment failure, and to me I don't care if the deer eventually dies. To me, what is important is that the DWR can come up with some definitive answers as to why the deer herds are declining by collaring deer...and, in the process, if a couple deer die as a result, I think it is a good sacrifice.

FWIW, I cannot see the picture and can't really comment on it...but, I will say this again. The deer collaring program and the study being done is good, smart, and will give some very good information.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

NBR, Again, more speculation. So now you are straying away from the exact original intent of this thread and pretending like you were doing this to prove a point about something completely different?

You said you "personally don't care". I'm gonna go ahead and say that this is absolutely a false statement made while back peddling. You took the time to create a thread and embed your passions in it, which is completely contrary to "not caring".

"Unacceptable"? I can agree with you on that, but the lack of acceptance lends no credence to casting blame wildly about.

If someone should be accountable for it, make it happen. I'm not making excuses or passing blame and if it was the result of negligence it needs to be reconciled and doing something like this is grounds for someone being in the unemployment office tomorrow. 

As to your assertion about "IF it was someone I didn't agree with". Your assertion could be correct IF this thread was based on any facts whatsoever. The FACTS we have is that there is a photo of a radio collar on a deer and that the division in known to put radio collars on deer. Please let me know if I missed anything because I am more than happy to be wrong.

Did you take the picture?

So, what's your number?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

And where was the picture taken? Utah isn't the only state that collars deer. It's a sad situation, but automatically throwing the blame on a UDWR employee who may have gone to college tells us more about you than the hypothetical person you blame.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

What I meant by personally don't care is I don't care who it was...I'm going to hold them accountable....

Tree I witnessed the division radio collaring deer last year a half a mile from the location that I took the picture....(other thread "I'm not surprised") I did not agree with them chasing deer with a helicopter to put radio collars on during the rut on winter range and shared my views....this is the same division that has told me they can not afford helicopter time for coyote control....it's no secret I disagree with the division quite frequently....i also disagree with sfw and many other organizations....... I just find it funny that many on this forum will be the first to lynch SFW and the first to praise the division...you though tree are always usually one to look at things fairly and that sir is why I like you and your input... 

I do have a question.... Why do you think equipment failure???? I have found a collar before on a fawn and it was simply like a dog collar....leather strap.....belt strap so to speak....I'm not sure but this one looked the same??? Tell me about the adjustable type????


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> And where was the picture taken? Utah isn't the only state that collars deer. It's a sad situation, but automatically throwing the blame on a UDWR employee who may have gone to college tells us more about you than the hypothetical person you blame.


The picture was taken near Logan Utah and the division has been made aware.....if the problem is not corrected you will know gps coordinates believe that


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I am just curious...natrl, would you trust the educated doctor who has received his doctorate degree in a medicinal field more than the guy who spent a night in Holdiay Inn when it comes to health-related issues? If so, why? or...why not?

The original post in this thread was to discredit the DWR and say that an education doesn't equate to know-how...do you believe any professional should be required to be trained and licensed...or should we simply allow anyone to practice in a profession? Also, if a trained professional make a mistake, does that make him/her any less trained or knowledgeable? Are professionals allowed to ever make mistakes?


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## polarbear (Aug 1, 2011)

It's common in a lot of states to collar fawns in the winter, mostly to track winter survival and possibly survival to recruitment. Most of these collars are designed to fall off after awhile by using some sort of degradable material on the band. 
http://www.telonics.com/literature/tech ... intro.html
I've personally seen surgical tubing used on fawn collars to both expand with the deer's neck and then to degrade and fall off. Maybe this deer was collared as a fawn and now either the collar's life is reaching an end or it didn't fall off like it was supposed to and is becoming too tight... or maybe someone messed up. I think the division is trying their best to solve very difficult problems while stuck in the middle of legislation, public criticism, and a ton of special interest groups that all want them to do something different. They are trying their best to solve increasing problems with decreasing resources and man-power. I've said it once and I'll say it again. I've hunted in other states, and Utah does a better job than anybody I've seen. Just my opinion on the matter. The way I see it, if it wasn't for the division we wouldn't have any deer to take pictures of, tight collar or not.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Wyo2ut a mistake is one thing this is another.....you can make light of this...I think it's serious....your analogy is not even close to an argument


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Just answer the question? How does a doctor's training or education make him qualified to work as a doctor...but, somehow, the training and education of a biologist doesn't qualify him/her? Do doctors ever misdiagnose? Do they ever mess up in surgery? How is that any different?

What about an electrician or plumber...do they have to go through some kind of training to become licensed? Or, can they just work as a professional electrician or plumber without the training? Does their "piece of paper" make them any more qualified than the next guy or the one who stayed at a Holiday Inn? Why or why not....answer the question. Because, in reality, the title of this whole thread implies that an education and/or training should NOT be required to work as a professional and that their license or "piece of paper" doesn't mean a thing.

Sorry, but I disagree 100%...that education and training is vital. I am certainly glad that measures are taken in my profession to help assure that people are qualified to do the job...perfect or not, that license or "piece of paper" is important!

And, again, I say that the loss of that one deer is not nearly as important as the potential information that can be gained from such a study...the reward far outweighs the risk!


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## silverlabs82 (Nov 16, 2010)

The Division didn't make the collar, nor did they put it on the deer. They contract the the whole capture process out to helicopter capture companies with their own capture and collaring crews. So, technically, the only thing the Division is responsible for is the logic behind the study which you all probably agree was a good idea.

And sure, the helicopter harasses deer, but not any more than everyone going to look at rutting deer EVERY DAY OF THE RUT. Isn't it more responsible to harass deer ONCE to gain some scientific data about their survival than to chase deer EVERY DAY to get a couple good pictures? Anyone with "horny" or "bone" in their screen name want to respond to that?


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

polarbear said:


> It's common in a lot of states to collar fawns in the winter, mostly to track winter survival and possibly survival to recruitment. Most of these collars are designed to fall off after awhile by using some sort of degradable material on the band.
> http://www.telonics.com/literature/tech ... intro.html
> I've personally seen surgical tubing used on fawn collars to both expand with the deer's neck and then to degrade and fall off. Maybe this deer was collared as a fawn and now either the collar's life is reaching an end or it didn't fall off like it was supposed to and is becoming too tight... or maybe someone messed up. I think the division is trying their best to solve very difficult problems while stuck in the middle of legislation, public criticism, and a ton of special interest groups that all want them to do something different. They are trying their best to solve increasing problems with decreasing resources and man-power. I've said it once and I'll say it again. I've hunted in other states, and Utah does a better job than anybody I've seen. Just my opinion on the matter. The way I see it, if it wasn't for the division we wouldn't have any deer to take pictures of, tight collar or not.


You tell em Rusty! I've personally only hunted Utah. I've been with family on other hunting trips to Montana and Alaska. I do feel Utah does work hard to protect our wildlife. Though we do not all agree on the practices and policies we also know this is not controlled by DWR. They are just the ones enforcing the laws and protecting the wildlife. I'm sure this tight collar is a rare thing. If your so passionate about resolving the problem, contact the authorities and make sure it's done right!

Most people feel our deer numbers are going down, which may be true. Our elk numbers are doing better each year. My family in Montana say the hunting is getting worse each year because of wolfs. Our state already has a plan in motion to control wolfs once a lot more start to come across. I'm sure this collar issue is "...more like one in a million!". ("So you're telling me there's a chance!").


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

This could not possibly be a full leather GPS collar with no adjustment at all that gets put on tight, over winter hair. They could not possible put it on tight to compensate for the hair, or to keep the collar in a higher possition so the mortality signal/function(possition dependant) will work properly. 

Such ignorance, doesn't surprise me through. 

And how dare you guys stick up for the DWR, yet beat up on SFW. SFW tells the DWR what to do. If you are going to discount SFW, you HAVE to then discount the DWR too, duh!


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## Duckholla (Sep 24, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Wyo2ut a mistake is one thing this is another.....you can make light of this...I think it's serious....your analogy is not even close to an argument


Yeah, Wyo2 I am going to have to agree with ntrl on this one. I'll redirect your question back to you, if a professional Dr with education makes a "mistake" which results in the death, is that acceptable to you? If the Docs that worked on Tex's heart shaved off too much, or didn't stitch something up correctly, that would be okay to you because it was a mistake? Absolutley not, you would return to the Dr. and hold him accountable. No?

If you're a professional, mistake or no mistake, you're going to be held accountable for your actions. I think that is the summary of NTRL's post, if I am not mistaking.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Thnks duckholla....I was just going to say if my plumber BREAKS a water line in my house I will hold him responsible because there should have been precautions making sure this doesnt happen.....I will be the first to admit accidents can/do happen all the time but I'm held responsible as should everyone....


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I've worked with livestock enough to know that most of the time, collars, halters, ropes, cinches, etc... are not nearly as tight as they might appear. Especially on animals in winter coat. I don't know enough about this specific situation other than the photo that is shown. Striking a balance between having a collar tight enough not to come off, but not too tight isn't a difficult one.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

There is a little ribbing involved back at some of the dwr can do no wrong guys though I will admit 

The point of my post is simply this is unacceptable!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Do you have any clue of what you speak?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I can appreciate the satire. I'm no stranger to sore ribs...... 

If Wheeler Cat delivers a back-hoe for NBR to use and they fail to chock the wheels correctly and it rolls down the hill taking out 3 brand new Mercedes in the Sweet Water parking lot, should we chastise NBR and his stupidity and ignorance, or should we go to the source?

And, be careful. Your reactionary emotional outrage is similar to a wolf proponent crying at the thought of a wolf being hunted and killed and then projecting their emotional instability on unsuspecting souls who thought they were in a logical conversation........ :mrgreen:


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Do you have any clue of what you speak?


You will have to ask your question so this hairy legged farm boy can understand :mrgreen:

What??


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Duckholla said:


> If you're a professional, mistake or no mistake, you're going to be held accountable for your actions. I think that is the summary of NTRL's post, if I am not mistaking.


....you guys assume way too much. Has that deer died? Has the mistake caused a death? Will it cause a death? Do we know one way or another?

Again, though, I say that the deer's death--if it does actually die--is still worth it because what we have learned. I have never said that individuals should or should not be held accountable. I believe accountability should be relative to the mistake. All doctor mistakes do not lead to death...and, again, there is no way of knowing yet whether a so-called collar mistake will result in a death. So, lynching a biologist or individual (whoever put the collar on) is wrong.

I also think that the summary of Ntrl's post is not about accountability...it is about the idea that someone holding a degree in wildlife biology is no more smarter at making wildlife decisions than someone who spends a lot of time hunting in the wood. I think he is dead wrong. Natrl's title and original post imply that the biologist's training is worthless and doesn't make the person any smarter...I disagree. I also am glad that we have training requirements and licensing requirements for professionals....and I do believe that the license means something...unlike natrl.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

NBR,
I do find it interesting that some on here have a double standard. This is just a good example of that. There are many more that could be discussed.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Wyo2ut you miss my point....And that's okay...

I am not discrediting a biology degree! what I am jabbing at is how guys like YOU tell me I can't have an opinion against the UDWR because I don't have a degree, they are all perfect and know more than anyone yadda yadda! Muley you are right....it is a double standard....

The UDWR is not perfect...no one is....but that's not the point of my post...I just seen an opportunity for a little sattire mixed in with a serious post and took it sorry for the confusion


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

NBR

I guess we do have something in common, my grandfather grew up on cattle operation in Laketown. Let me ask a little different. What is unacceptable? Collaring deer to better understand deer biologly? Or the DWR actually doing something? I worked with and was consulted(hardware, cameras and collars) by a bio that conducted one of the largest collaring operations in ID. So I disagree on the supposed tight collar


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## Amy (Jan 22, 2009)

This doe was actually collared as an adult, most likely in 2006 or 2008. I just spoke to the biologist who oversaw the original collaring study on the Cache unit, and she showed me one of the collars and explained a few things:

1. The collar needs to be tight or else there is a risk of it rubbing the neck raw (and causing an infection). It could also get the doe caught on something. 

2. Because the doe's winter hair is so thick, the collar always looks much tighter than it actually is.

3. We work with professional wildlife-capture/collar companies who have done this work for years, all over the United States. They usually slip two fingers between the neck and the collar when attaching the collar for the first time. That method ensures that the collar doesn't go on too tight.

4. We use different collars for does and fawns. The fawns' collars drop off after about nine months or so. The does' collars don't drop off. The doe in this photo has survived with this collar on for the past three to five years.

I also spoke to our wildlife disease coordinator this morning. She looked at the photo and agreed that although the collar looks tight—and she couldn't see the entire body—the deer does not appear to be malnourished. Her face isn't sunken in, her eyes are bright, her ears are perked and her coat is smooth and shiny.

With all that said, the collar looks tight in this photo, and our biologist in the Cache unit is going to follow up and check on the condition of this doe. I hope this helps address some of the concerns mentioned in this thread.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Hmmm...imagine that. Maybe they actually do know what they are doing. Thanks amy! So, I guess their degrees do amount to something!


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I love it when Amy chimes in lol Thanks Amy!!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Let me just cut right to the chase here, I told you so. Maybe we should consider the source of some of the stuff posted here, and proposed in the real world as well.

I believe there is an apology in order here.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I just received the pic via email...and here all this time I thought we were talking about some emaciated half-starved doe...geez, if I had known that the deer looked that healthy, I would never have replied.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Oh my god! Facts! 

Go ahead and throw out all of your "examples" 73.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks Amy.....I'm sure things will be taken care of....

I had problems with my camera and did not grab multiple photos....the intial thought I had was there was multiple collars on to tight....after I watched the deer for awhile it was obvious that the particular collar in the picture was much tighter than the other collars....what was interesting was that she seemed to be breathing heavy for no apparent reason....even coughing.... Maybe it was something else I don't know??

The other collars actually slightly moved up and down the neck as the deer were feeding...this one did not....

I will gladly apologize if I am wrong....but I honestly think there is a bit of a problem with this paticular doe....


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Now that, actually is pathetic.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

http://www.clipsyndicate.com/video/play ... t_11_27_07

hmmm....sound familiar?


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

god im glad i didnt become a biologist ...


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

We need to remember this isn't an either/or discussion. It isn't a college educated group versus an experience educated group. Those DWR employees/biologists didn't just walk out of the classroom the day before this doe was collared. They've done their OJT as well, most for many years. And they were undoubtedly acting under orders and following procedures established by others. IF a mistake was made, we need to spend our time and energy fixing the problem, not trying to place blame. And Amy will see to that! Thanks, Amy!


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## indyrxl (Aug 22, 2008)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> I know that I am not qualified to say if this is right or wrong by most of your standards so think of this picture what you will.........Maybe its the divisions idea of reducing the doe numbers to get more in line with the 15-100 does on the cache???? Maybe they thought the odds of the deer growing up from a fawn were slim to none????? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look at post #9 from the UDWR
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/D ... 22574.html


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

She also posted on here....thanks


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Thanks for the vid. So IF the collar were too tight, the hair would be gone from the neck, and the deer would still be in good health? Some how this doe on the Cache has lived for 2-4 years with this collar that is "too tight", "starving it". The only two people with any experience in the field have said the collar is NOT too tight, but some are still gonna try to run with the "collar is too tight" non sense. Once again, consider the source, and the echo chamber he occupies. 

NBR......YOU ARE WRONG. Inacurate threads such as these, do far more damage to wildlife, and wildlife management, than any collar thats NOT too tight. If people in this state choose to mis-educate themselves, and re-mis-educate their peers along these lines.....You deserve the kind of goverment, and poorly thought out wildlife management, that this kind of gossip passed as knowledge BS brings you. 

Consider the younger folks that read here for information, because they are still learning. They can walk away from a thread like this forever MISINFORMED, continueing to misinform their peers. Is this the kind of heritage we want to pass on? One of ignorance and here say?

Just to be clear, the collar is NOT too tight.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Just to be clear NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE!!! From my ****ty picture you can tell nothing except it looks off or weird to at least me

Is it fine....I hope so...I really do!! I hope I am wrong as hell and a dumbass for even thinking it was tight....


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

IF it were too tight, the deers health would be affected, and or it would be dead by now as a result. IF it were tighter than it is now, which still would not kill it, or greatly affect its health, the hair would be rubbed off. IF the hair were rubbed off, it would be visible even in that pic. It would have a very defined line where the hair was, and the hair was not, at the interface of the collar(short and broken hairs would be visible also), this is absolutely not the case. So...the collar is NOT too tight. Your gonna have to walk it back further than that. In this particular case, your OPINION is WRONG, and you attempted to portray said OPINION as fact, while slowly modifying what your intent in all of this was.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

The division isn't perfect....the division makes mistakes....the division needs checks and balances. The division also has some of the best qualified people around to manage our wildlife by a LOOONNNNGGGG ways. 

If one single deer with a collar that is a bit tight is all you guys can find to make them look bad and make people that support them look bad then I'd say they are doing a **** good job! Geez I thought I'd see some egregious widespread problem.

For the record IF the collar is too tight they should figure out why and make it better. IF it is too tight it is something that certainly needs to be corrected.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

For the record, I had a biologist in Canada that has collared 100s of deer and elk say it looks fine. So thats three qualified opinions(mine, the DWR, and an independant biologist) that say it is fine. The collar is not too tight, NBR needs to acknowledge so, and apologize to the division. Trust me, I have issues with some of the DWRs biologists, but they do know how to contract out the collaring of deer.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

I've actually shot a buck during the rifle hunt down by Lasal that had a collar on it. When I came up to it and finally noticed the collar I inspected it as I thought it looked to tight (similar to the photo). Well we took it down to the checking station and the biologist that was there explained to me that it wasn't (pretty much the same explanation Amy gave) and that the particular buck I had shot was collared 3 years before. I can't even imagine what he would have looked like during the full rut. It sure would have been nice to have seen a full body photo from the get go before responding to the crazy allegations.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I'd love to get a collared buck! that would look sweet on my laynard!


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

utahgolf said:


> I'd love to get a collared buck! that would look sweet on my laynard!


He was a big one (well at least for me). The bio recognized him as he has two cheater pints on one side and he had been watching him for three years. He didn't seem too happy about him getting shot.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Why sir are you so qualified??????

I will apologize though as I probably should have been more considerate in the title of my post and the whole starving comment as I encouraged allegations and rumors from my first post.....in fact most of my posts on the big game section are nothing more than opinions and horse shiz......I forget that people take me literally and think that I have a clue as to what I am saying........

Dear UDWR......I acknowledge I have no idea what I am talking about when it comes to collaring deer and am spreading nothing more than opinions.........I apologize for questioning your degrees and experience..... UDWR please forgive me........I am full of satire and bullshiz 99.9% of the time and I know that I rarely know what I am talking about when it comes to many things especially a collar on a mule deer.....If someone takes something I say as gospel I highly recommend you reconsider.......

In My Un-educated Opinion the collar still looks to tight.......especially compared to the other deer near by.....why are they so loose then??????? I will get some more pictures sometime in the next month and post them up as I am really ready to learn about this.......I also question you on the elk collars????????? Why are they so loose


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Geez Ntrl Amy gave you a very logically explanation along with others. When you were little did you need to touch the stove several times even when your mother said you would burn yourself. I know you have a great dislike for the DWR as I dislike SFW. Yes, SFW does a lot of great things for wildlife, but it seems like more and more they are all about the money instead of truly helping our wildlife. This is why a lot of people don't like SFW. They don't ever answer the questions directed at them. At least we get answers from the division. Don dodges a lot of questions. I wonder why??????


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

A few more that someone has screwed up or are on right or wrong or I don't even know anymore......... :?

Bad Then??????




































Good????










I am learning......give me time :|


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

I too can do a google search and post only tight collars to prove my point.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Geez Ntrl Amy gave you a very logically explanation along with others.


If the UDWR gave the public of utah an explanation most of them except it as gospel and do not question it...... my mother actually taught me to think for myself and ask questions....... especially when the current government is involved......

I still do not think it looks right and will be doing plenty of my own research......... 

If I am wrong.....and I have admitted I know little....then stone my as$ :|

I am going to learn the ins and outs of this entire business and will happily report back 

And yes I quickly did a google search for those pictures....congrats Judd on your research of my research thus far :_O=:


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Judd- Also In my time.......I would guess I have seen around twenty collars on deer and elk in the wild.........total......that's it.......the one I posted up was BY FAR the tightest.......these are more in line with what I have seen.......


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > Geez Ntrl Amy gave you a very logically explanation along with others.
> ...


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

I take what anyone says with a grain of salt.....especially groups like SFW, MDF and even the New Wildlife Cooperative.......Im a skeptic yote...nice try....


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> I take what anyone says with a grain of salt.....especially groups like SFW, MDF and even the New Wildlife Cooperative.......Im a skeptic yote...nice try....


BS you and Goofy have been sucking on the same SFW teat.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Did the tye dye twins hack NBR's account? The defensiveness seems eerily familiar. Hmmmmm.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> Did the tye dye twins hack NBR's account? The defensiveness seems eerily familiar. Hmmmmm.


 :lol:


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> martymcfly73 said:
> 
> 
> > Did the tye dye twins hack NBR's account? The defensiveness seems eerily familiar. Hmmmmm.
> ...


That is a good one!


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Finnegan said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously collared when she was a fawn. What makes you so sure it was the DWR?
> ...


Not true. Around 15 or so years ago my best friend was a graduate student at USU. He was involved in a deer study on Camp Williams and Kennecote. We ear tagged and radio collared several deer over a 2 month period with no one involved but him and I. Good times and lots of stories I shouldn't share on the internet. And no, we never put on a collar that tight.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

NBR

Good on you for walking it back over the line, much appreciated. Simple answer on all of the other pictures you posted: Summer coats.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> There is no excuse for what they have done.......and like goofy says ANYTIME ANYONE has anything to do with wildlife research be a university, SFW, DWR is right there........You know that Finn...........


 SORRY, THATS NOT TRUE.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> .in fact most of my posts on the big game section are nothing more than opinions and horse shiz......I forget that people take me literally and think that I have a clue as to what I am saying........


I've been thinking.....we need to invent a sarcasm font


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

bullsnot said:


> ntrl_brn_rebel said:
> 
> 
> > .in fact most of my posts on the big game section are nothing more than opinions and horse shiz......I forget that people take me literally and think that I have a clue as to what I am saying........
> ...


I bath in the stuff, I can usually tell the difference. Early on, the only sarcasm was mine. Best kind though, it was also real information. This did not start out as sarcasm. But I would go for a sarcasm font, then my posts would be even funnier, when I did not use it.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

blackdog said:


> ntrl_brn_rebel said:
> 
> 
> > There is no excuse for what they have done.......and like goofy says ANYTIME ANYONE has anything to do with wildlife research be a university, SFW, DWR is right there........You know that Finn...........
> ...


Yeah, we conducted research(out of utah) on black and grizzly bears in Canada, Montana, and Idaho. Idaho was the only place where the F&G was involved, and that was just a simple sign off on the research. In Canada all research was conducted on private property. In Montana three facilaties/agencies were involved, and included captive and wild grizzlies, and only the forest service was involved in the wild Grizzly study. F&G is jurisdictionaly bound, and usurped by the feds.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Too tight.......

***** deleted by a mod.***************** Not needed here.
GaryFish


Definitely not mal nourished.....


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

:shock: Now that, is unacceptable. :lol:


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

YIKES!! not what ya want to see right before bed....Thanks alot Nam, Ill blame you in advance for any messed up dreams/nightmares I have tonight lol


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Nambaster...

WOW! entierly toooo early to have seen that pic... first cup of coffee isnt even down yet man! _(O)_ 

my eyes --- my eyes :shock:


look, i havent read every single post in this thread but to me a snug/tight collar would be better. a loose fitting one would no doubt rub hair off like crazy but wth do i know. :| the only collared big game animal i have encountered was a BH up on Baretop. It was a loose collar and had rubbed the hair off quite badly where the neck joins the shoulders. Imo, if the bios we're left to do their respective jobs w/o the politics of the state and special interest groups, our deer herds would be in a much better place.


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## OKEE (Jan 3, 2008)

YUP that's a full picture. UH NO She is not starving.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

So I am trying to figure this all out. The Division has inaccurate counts, you and Goofy are always saying this. You guys always complain that they are not doing enough to help the deer populations out. You guys are tired of not seeing biologists out doing their job. Now you see a collar that you think is too tight, that has been supported with facts from several experts not be too tight and you simply discount it because you know everything. Boy this post is full of hypocrisy. :mrgreen: 

I can honestly say I do appreciate you bringing it to everyone's attention because when I first saw the picture it does look a little tight, but I am no expert. It is always good to think for yourself also, but what does it take to actually prove to you that you may be wrong on this topic? 

I will also say that I don't think the division is perfect, I don't know anyone who does, including themselves. I don't know of any perfect organizations, they all make mistakes from time to time. I guess I am just not out to try and discount everything the division does to prove my point or anyone for that matter.


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## El Casador (Aug 27, 2009)

That isn't right :evil:


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

El Casador said:


> That isn't right :evil:


Exactly what is not right? There is allot that is not right here.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Update-

I just got off the phone with Darrin debloois The area biologist.... First off what a great guy and he explained a few things to me. The collar in question IS to tight according to him and he told me they are on it....he figured the deer had been collared as a yearling and had grown into the collar. I am also excited to know I am going to be helping with a collaring operation in the upcoming months and learn a thing or two about this. I will be sure to shoot plenty of pictures of this and am excited to help contribute.

It turns out they shoot for the collars to be loose enough to move around but tight enough as to not get a hoof caught....


I am done with this thread and apologize for the negativity....I for one am impressed with the division getting right on this matter...

Thanks again UDWR......you have impressed this negative jerk :lol: 

Thanks everyone for your input.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Update-
> 
> I just got off the phone with Darrin debloois The area biologist.... First off what a great guy and he explained a few things to me. The collar in question IS to tight according to him and he told me they are on it....he figured the deer had been collared as a yearling and had grown into the collar. I am also excited to know I am going to be helping with a collaring operation in the upcoming months and learn a thing or two about this. I will be sure to shoot plenty of pictures of this and am excited to help contribute.
> 
> ...


Mad props to you for following up with this!


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

NBR-

I've watched this thread progress and most of the time had my eyes :roll: for the most part. But, like Jahan said, props to you for following through. I have to give it up to you, you certainly have passion, albeit a bit misplaced. Were you to focus that passion in a positive mannor, I think you would get a lot accomplished and perhaps gain some valuable insight on a few things 8)


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Thanks for the update, I think everyone learned something.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Update-
> 
> I just got off the phone with Darrin debloois The area biologist.... First off what a great guy and he explained a few things to me.


Darren Debloois is a great guy...although I can't say I know him personally, I have had a few email conversations with him and he has always been helpful and cordial. I think that having a chance to work with him on projects will be very educational...and a great opportunity!


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## Amy (Jan 22, 2009)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Update-
> 
> I just got off the phone with Darrin debloois The area biologist.... First off what a great guy and he explained a few things to me. The collar in question IS to tight according to him and he told me they are on it....he figured the deer had been collared as a yearling and had grown into the collar.


Thanks for the update, NBR. I'm glad you and Darren had a good discussion. I hope you don't mind, but I used the information from your post to update folks over on MonsterMuleys. They've been pretty concerned about this doe, too. I also emailed Darren and asked him to keep me in the loop on what happens with the doe. Right now, I'm assuming they'll either loosen the collar or remove it entirely. I'll follow up here when I have something to share.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

The collar has provided years of data and the doe appears to be healthy. If the collar is uncomfortably tight then leave it on. If the collar is a hazard to the doe's health then it could be addressed, but don't loose the opportunity to collect long-term info if the animal is not in imminent danger of dieing.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

You know what? I'm please that this much attention has been given to an animal that isn't considered a trophy. Now we're getting somewhere! Nice followup NBR, Darrin, and Amy!


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I never thought the day would come...NBR speaking good of the DWR? It's like witnessing the baptism of Lindsay Lohan...


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

"It's like witnessing the baptism of Lindsay Lohan..." Would this involve thin white linen, and water?


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## HunterDavid (Sep 10, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> "It's like witnessing the baptism of Lindsay Lohan..." Would this involve thin white linen, and water?


Wow....


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

REB- amazing how the squeaky wheel gets the grease.


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