# Wanna Talk Turkey?



## SureShot (Oct 2, 2007)

OK, here's some data to get you thinking.

The DWR finally (on the very day next year's applications are due :O•-: ) posted the drawing odds for this year's hunts:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/uplandgame/tur ... points.pdf

The harvest statistics for this year's hunt have also been available for awhile:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/uplandgame/tur ... esults.pdf

Here are some interesting things to consider:
- The Central region is the most difficult unit to draw in terms of odds. Even so, last year's more liberal permit allocation cleared out everybody with more than 4 points (unless you're holding out for a CWMU).
- All of the other regions are down to 3 points or fewer required to draw a permit.
- If you had 2 or more points and didn't draw this year (you'll have 3 going into the next draw), you should be guaranteed a permit in any general unit except possibly Central.
- The success rate for LE tags was between 30-40% this year and the statewide general hunt success rate was 16%.

There was some discussion on another thread regarding the LE v. over-the-counter approach to managing the seasons. I believe the LE hunts were originally put in place because the turkey population couldn't withstand a general season. As the turkey population increased, we saw more permits allocated, then fewer units and fewer, longer seasons and the introduction of over-the-counter permits last year.

Success rates have dropped from 70-80% down to 30-40% in LE hunts during that period and I don't think there's been an outpouring of complaints.

I predict that within another year or two, the people who built up a lot of bonus points will be cleared out and LE units will be phased out altogether. Then Tex will get his wish of a single statewide season. I also predict they'll hang on to the youth hunt and let the youth have first crack at them for a week or so.

In the new system of purely over-the-counter permits, it looks like the success rate would be around 20%. Do you think we would maintain the current number of hunters (about 14,000-15,000) in that scenario or would some lose interest?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it looks like some people drew on points with 2 and 3 points in Central region but not everyone with 4 points drew. It looks like the same thing happened in other regions. That doesn't make any sense. Am I missing something?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I will just wait and buy a OTC tag and enjoy a 30 day hunting season. I have acquired this tag two years in a row and had a blast. Now my 10 year old daughter gets to go after them this spring. I am fired up!


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## SureShot (Oct 2, 2007)

Bullsnot, I think that happens when two people with a different number of points put in together and their average is high enough to get the permit.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> That doesn't make any sense. Am I missing something?


No, you're not missing anything. You know why? Cuz nun of this LE crap makes any sense!



> statewide general hunt success rate was 16%.


WOW! that's good! The National average across the country is only 11%! We're killing WAY more turkeys per capita than anyone else that runs a general season and not this stupid, lame, retarded limited entry crap.

God! I wish they'd do away with this LE bullsh*t and just make it a state wide regular hunt like EVERY other state in the nation.

Proof once again that the DWR is operating on a "what will make the most money" platform. The Utah DWR, leading the country in stupidity.

There, did I candy coat any of that? :mrgreen:


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

So what if we ran the big game LE hunts like we do the LE turkey hunts? This is what we'd have...you tell me if it makes ANY sense in ANY way...let's go with a LE elk hunt...OK, first we open up , say Monroe area, to a few very luck hunters that have waited for years to draw a permit and then a couple weeks later we open up the Monroe area to any and all hunters that wish to hunt there...now, does that makes a lot of sense? 
I am saying we need to get these prime turkey hunting areas closed up and closed up quickly before the general public discovers the joys of turkey hunting and start overrunning these rich man's playgrounds. We need to get a more comprehensive guide service business going and establish turkey hunting for the rich and stupid before the regular guy catches on. Next, I recommend we put in place a system to better measure and record the sizes of turkeys so we know and can brag about the trophys we kill. Maybe a B&C for turkeys. It just doesn't make any sense to just go out and hunt and not have a goal to reach...a standard to measure our "success", if you will.


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## drsx (Sep 8, 2010)

So please some one clarify because I haven't fully reserached on my own.... but I was told this year tags will be available otc. Is this true? Or is that what were hoping for in the future?


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> I was told this year tags will be available otc. Is this true? Or is that what were hoping for in the future?


That's true. It was also true last year. There is a limited entry hunt in April for which you have to pay the $10 entry fee and hope to draw out. Then the general hunt is in May. The end result is that the turkeys get hunted for two long months instead of one and the DWR puts extra money in its pocket. Once again there's no biology making the decisions. Just $$$.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

SureShot said:


> Bullsnot, I think that happens when two people with a different number of points put in together and their average is high enough to get the permit.


Ok that makes sense. I didn't think about that scenario.

It does seem though that the LE's and general hunts are redundant. Combine em!!!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

How many of you guys hunted the general last year? I did with my 12 year old and we eventually called in one bird, a hen. The rest of the hunt everything was silent!!! Did anybody get these birds talking in May last year?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I killed 3 last year all of them talking their heads off! :shock: 

Oklahoma is great to hunt, its warm, no snow, tons of turkeys, and little to no hunting pressure. I go back every year for the season.

Did I mention the limit is 3? :lol:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> How many of you guys hunted the general last year? I did with my 12 year old and we eventually called in one bird, a hen. The rest of the hunt everything was silent!!! Did anybody get these birds talking in May last year?


I hunted it, and I called in numerous toms. I helped two 10 year old kids kill their first turkey's. The turkeys were talking all the way to the end of May.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

So what is the best way to find birds in May? Do you hunt em like elk, covering lots of ground using locator calls? Do you hunt em like coyotes going a half mile to a mile and making stands? I know it's good to find their roosting tree but that isn't always possible. Is it a morning and evening only hunt? Hunt all day?

I know lots of question but I'm a sponge so fire away if you're willing.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Hunt ALL day, be there early and leave late. I hunt them like coyotes, I set up and call, of I get a response or see movement I stay put. If they respond I go silent and stay motionless. If they move away I move in closer or get around them and try and ambush them. And mostly, I get away from the crowds/roads as much as possible. Stay close to the snow line, and don't over call. I had fair success in spot and stalk tactics last year as well, but I like to call critters to me above any/all other methods of hunting, whether it be turkeys, elk, geese, ducks, or coyotes/foxes.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Hunt ALL day


I'll second that, and take it one step farther. I don't even get out of bed and in the field until WAY after daylight. I let the toms and hens do their thing in the morning and after the hens leave the toms for that day to go lay and egg or file their nails, THATS when I make my move on em. You'll almost never call a tom away from the hens, but wait till the hens are gone and he's sitting around with his "pecker" in his hand, (pun intended :mrgreen and he'll come in on a string. Most of the turkeys I've killed late in the season have been between 11:00 am and 3:00 pm. Plus, most of the other guys hunting have given up by then. You'll have the woods all to yourself.


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## SureShot (Oct 2, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> WOW! that's good! The National average across the country is only 11%! We're killing WAY more turkeys per capita than anyone else that runs a general season and not this stupid, lame, retarded limited entry crap.


Hmmm...you may want to double-check your facts. I just did a scientific study (ie, pulled up the first 6 states I could find doing a Google search :lol: ) and found these numbers for Spring hunts:

Minnesota 2010: 29% Success
New Jersey 2008: 16% Success
Iowa 2008: 32%
Indiana 2010: 22%
Georgia 2009: 49%
Wisconsin 2010: 22%

I'd be interested to see a more thorough report of all the states. At any rate, I think anything less than 20% success rate is not a very good experience as far as I'm concerned.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

SureShot said:


> At any rate, I think anything less than 20% success rate is not a very good experience as far as I'm concerned.


That may be the most ignorant comment I have ever read!


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## SureShot (Oct 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> That may be the most ignorant comment I have ever read!


No, you'd have to look at some of the stuff you've posted over the years to find that. :O•-:

Sorry, Pro. I don't buy a tag and go hunting just to enjoy nature. I can do that anytime for free. I go with the intention of harvesting something.

If I see any hunt (for any species) with success rates above 50%, I know I'm going to see a lot of game and have plenty of opportunity for a harvest. If it's in the 20-40% range, I know there's game to be had, but I'm going to have to be better than average (or luckier than average) to harvest something. If it's less than 20%, I'm in for lots of long walks and conversations with other frustrated hunters complaining about how "the DWR doesn't know how to manage" this state.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

SureShot said:


> for lots of long walks and conversations with other frustrated hunters complaining about how "the DWR doesn't know how to manage" this state.


You are not gonna have to take more than one or two walks to find those! :shock: Hell we got a whole forum full of em here, no walking required! :lol:

Did you take into account that those states you listed have boxcar loads more turkey than Utah? They might not know just ecatly how many they have running loose at any given time, but they **** sure know how many they kill, cause most of thsoe states require hunters to check thier kill, Utah should look into that, instead of guessing the numbers all the time.

Other than that all I can add is it is called hunting, not shooting, you have to get out and hunt to kill something, a hunter should not count on it falling in thier lap.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

SureShot said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > WOW! that's good! The National average across the country is only 11%! We're killing WAY more turkeys per capita than anyone else that runs a general season and not this stupid, lame, retarded limited entry crap.
> ...


Ya, especially if you're one of the 80%'rs :roll:

Notice I said the *national* average. that's the key here. Yes they do kill more in some states, and BTW, that 49% average in Georgia, I call total bullsh*t! My friend lives down there and there is NO way that half the people with tags get their turkey! Now in states like Iowa, and Nebraska where they have more turkeys than people, I'd say those figures are about right. But most states don't enjoy that kind of success.

Now, lets also take into account that Utah's turkey country is very diverse. With most of it being hard to access, high mountain terrain. Compare that to the flat, easy to access states. Now, lets look at the average Utah turkey hunter. Most of whom don't know how to walk a hundred yards past the bumper of their truck or a wheeler, have only been hunting these birds on a LE basis for about 12 years. I've lived here my whole life. I've drawn ONE tag! Back in those other states they have been hunting them for 80 years. Take all these factors into consideration and it's easy to see why someone with limited turkey hunting experience, hunting birds that are NOT easy to find, in rough steep terrain, that are call shy because they've been boogered by 2000 screaming LE guys for the last three weekends in a row, would have trouble killing one in this state. Until we get a few more years of experience under our belts, we're not going to have that high of success rate.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

So, I take it Sure-Shot..if the State kill rate was higher, you would have a better experience? Does that mean that if say the kill % was say 80% you would have a 4 times better experience on the hunt than the years that the kill rate was only 20%? Or say if the kill rate was 100%, the experience of the hunt is absolutely the best...can't get any better, tops, perfect...hell, what if you get stuck in the mud? You know, I think I got to kind of go along with the Pro man on this one.


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## SureShot (Oct 2, 2007)

You guys aren't getting it. What I'm saying is that success rates are a very good indication of what type of experience you're likely to have. If more people are killing birds, the logical conclusion is that more birds are around and you're more likely to see birds and have harvest opportunities. Let's look at another example. Who do you think has a better experience, the guy hunting deer on the Henry's (100% success rate) or the guy hunting the general hunt in the Southeastern unit?


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

At what price do we pay for the 100% success rate. Should we maybe just keep lowering the number of permits..number of hunters that can go hunting...until we reach the magical 100% rate. Were does it end? Why is success measured for kill rate? Is it better to go hunting but once in your lifetime with a guaranteed kill or go as often as possible with a lower rate. Is there nothing more to hunting than kill rate, percentages, rack size, full limits?? You know, I almost respect the pure meat hunter more than the horn crazed, kill rate mathematicians , LE worshiping, manage for more bucks (or turkeys with long beards) guys that are running the state now..be they special interest groups like SFW or the DWR
...aw, but I babble


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Oh I get it just fine, and no success rates are not a very good indication of the type of hunting experience a person has. The hunter’s expectations determine that, and for a fact here in Utah there are way too many half ass hunters just like Tex described. They think they can just roll out and the critters will come forth to be harvested. 

I really hate how hunting has became a sport where if you don’t kill something, then you haven’t gained anything, now it is all about numbers, it’s sad!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Lets see, archery deer success rates are 20% year in and year out, and the survey the DWR did two years ago showed that archers were the most satisfied of all deer hunters, including LE deer hunters. Part of the 'low' success rates here in Utah is most Utah turkey hunters are new to the game. Many are hunting turkeys for the first time, and are learning as they go. I know my learning curve as been huge. I like to HUNT, so I don't worry too much about the success rates, but that's just me......


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Amen Pro. I sure don't mind being a 20% guy...As long as I'm in the % group that kills one.  :mrgreen:

Shoot, if I'm in the 20% group of archers that kill a buck every three years I feel lucky.

The feeling one gets from making a clean kill can only be measured by how much blood sweat and tears went into the harvest of that animal. Hell, If all I wanted to do was kill stuff I'd go hunt game farms and fenced ranches. Hunting to me it WAY more than that. It really is sad that todays wildlife officials and special interest groups have made it such a trophy/success rate thing. Don't people get out and hunt just for the hunt anymore. More people need to take a page out of Fred Bear, or Tred Bartas hunting journal. Read Fred Bears field notes sometime. He writes how he goes for weeks without even seeing an animal but he relishes every moment he gets to spend in the outdoors. Tred Barta is in a wheel chair for hell sakes! But he still does it the hard way. With a longbow and wood arrows on the ground with NO blind. To him, just getting a chance at an animal is truly glorifying. The look on his face says it all.

We're all a bunch or lazy, spoiled, technologically crippled, ninnies with an entitlement complex. :?

The next time you kill something ask yourself if you really _earned_ it...


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> The next time you kill something ask yourself if you really _earned_ it...


+1 I agree that is possibly the greatest saying that I have heard tex say and there are many to choose from. You don't remember the easy ones you remember the ones that were hard as hell to kill.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

katorade said:


> You don't remember the easy ones you remember the ones that were hard as hell to kill.


Wise words right there, especialy when you are talking turkey hunting. I have killed dozens in my life, but the tough ones hold a special place in my memories.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

SureShot said:


> You guys aren't getting it. What I'm saying is that success rates are a very good indication of what type of experience you're likely to have. If more people are killing birds, the logical conclusion is that more birds are around and you're more likely to see birds and have harvest opportunities. Let's look at another example. Who do you think has a better experience, the guy hunting deer on the Henry's (100% success rate) or the guy hunting the general hunt in the Southeastern unit?


I'm one of those guys that has just started hunting turkeys. 2011 will be my third season and I have yet to see a bird during the hunt. I am grateful to be able to hunt turkeys in Utah, 20% or not. Each year I have learned something new. I am more likely one of the guys "Tex" hates. But you know what, I would not trade my last two years for one of those 100% hunts. Why, because the learning is the experience. Trying to figure out why all the birds you see in the off season are gone during the hunting season is part of the challenge. I am looking forward to each season to try something new, to try a new theory, and it lets me think about a animal the whole year through. I find myself listening and watching for turkeys in the off season. While a 100% hunt right out of the box would be fun for a moment, I can assure you the journey to my first turkey will be much more memorable.

I was one of those guys that was more than willing to let hunters hunt once every 10 years on the Henries. I would not give up my 10 lowly southeastern hunts for their one high fence hunt.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> I am more likely one of the guys "Tex" hates.


I'm not a hater dude. I'm just old and crotchety like BP.  It sounds like you're doing it right. It's only a matter of time till you kill one. It aint if, it's when and how big.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > I am more likely one of the guys "Tex" hates.
> 
> 
> I'm not a hater dude. I'm just old and crotchety like BP.  It sounds like you're doing it right. It's only a matter of time till you kill one. It aint if, it's when and how big.


Seems like there is a saying about "trying to teach an old dog new tricks". But we are never to old to have some fun and try something new......... .


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

HOH...it took me 'till my third year before I finally got me a tom. When you start from scratch like most of us Utards (terms of endearment my friend, only terms of endearment) the learning curves is pretty steep. Back when I started hunting turkeys in Utah...around 1990...a tag was sold Over-the-counter and I think it cost like 3 bucks...'course there was only about 6 birds in the whole state so it was pretty hard to learn by experience. Just do like that orrrnry young whippersnapper Tex says and I'll bet you get that first bird soon.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

My first experience with turkeys was in West Virginia. You wanna talk about some cagey educated birds! I swore right then and there if turkeys could smell, you'd never kill one. The only one I had a chance at was coming to my calls on a string. I was separated from my wife and she was watching the back door hiding in a ditch in case they got past me and kept going. Well, she didn't understand turkey hunting either and when she heard all gobbling going on she thought for sure she could just get out of that ditch and "sneak" up on him while I kept him distracted... :roll: :evil: Bless her heart... :roll: :evil: Meanwhile, I'm sitting there thinking this bird is gonna step out at any second. All the sudden I hear, put...put...put...PUTPUTPUTPUT whfooop whfwoop whfwoop... I looked up to see a huge gobbler fly over my head as fast as any pheasant I'd ever seen and disappear into the next holler. (a holler is what they call a canyon in West Virginia.) We hunted them hard for a week on private land with zero hunting pressure and never even saw another bird. I wasn't until five years later in Montana that I got my first one. My learning curve on those birds looks more like the giant arch in St Louis. :shock:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I had an easier road, I had good trainers, Dad and papaw taught me all they knew about hunting turkeys. I cut my spurs (pun intended) on those cagey Eastern birds in south Arkansas many years ago. But I still learn something every time I go out and hunt. Last year it took me 5 days to kill this cagey old bird, he might well be the smartest one I ever tied up with and won the battle. 
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25204


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> I had an easier road, I had good trainers, Dad and papaw taught me all they knew about hunting turkeys. I cut my spurs (pun intended) on those cagey Eastern birds in south Arkansas many years ago. But I still learn something every time I go out and hunt. Last year it took me 5 days to kill this cagey old bird, he might well be the smartest one I ever tied up with and won the battle.
> viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25204


The longest I ever hunted a single bird was 3 days..got him on the morning of the fourth day...must admit...it was maybe my most memorable hunt. Seems like birds get smarter the more they are hunted, but it is more than that, they become more highly tuned into their surrounding environment. A wise old bird living close to a populated area can be one of huntings best and most rewarding challenges .


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

You know the old adage, slip up once, teach him a lifelong lesson? I fluffed him on the first day, it was the hunt from hell then on out, till chance intervened. 

I won’t ever forget the lessons he taught me or the fact except for dumb luck he would still be out waiting me this spring. Frankly I glad he’s gone; I wasn’t looking forward to hunting him again. I generally find Rios to be the easiest of the species to hunt, but he sure wasn’t, he easily reviled any of those cagey old Eastern’s I have hunted.

But his brothers are still running lose on the place, I recon come April I'll see if they can fill his shoes!


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## Gumbo (Sep 22, 2007)

This planet is covered with sordid men who demand that he who spends time fishing shall show returns in fish.
--Leonidas Hubbard, Jr.


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