# Best shot gun for bear defense?



## mattinthewild (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm headed up to Alaska a few times this summer and fall for a sheep hunt, a wolf hunt, and to film grizzly bear. I have a 44 mag but would like my Dad and sister to have a good shotgun. Headed to Cabelas. I'm looking for the right gun and load combo.


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

PUMP 12 Guage with HIGH capacity tube holder with 3.5" shells with Double Buck shot alternating with SLUGS....

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Matt, check out these guys. Great forum for all things AK forums.outdoorsdirectory.com


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Bear spray.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Pump shotgun filled with 12 ga Brenneke Black Magic slugs and bear spray is one suggestion. On a trip into Katmai National park, we couldn't take any firearms in the boat. Whether its a false sense of security or not....I definitely preferred having a stout gun aboard.....

Its crazy how big those bears are when you get up close to them. Makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck:shock:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'd get a .444 Guide Gun or maybe even in .45-70... cuz they are pretty cool and this is a great excuse to get one. 

Would turn the above picture into this 










-DallanC


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Pump shotgun, medium to short barrel. First two rounds slugs followed with the rest being OO buck (fairly open terrain). 

As always a lot of the thought process will be what kind of terrain you will be in. Most of what i've seen is that all three weapons have been available to use, Bear Spray, shotgun, and pistol, but which one or ones picked would be based on where you were at (open terrain vs thick brush) and other factors.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm not sure how many times I've been to Alaska (20+?). I've had close encounters with black, grizz and Kodiaks up there. None were remotely dangerous but I did nearly fudge my slacks a few times. If you're going to pack a longgun for defense have it on a readysling or cradled in your arms. Once you get use to a gun hanging under your armpit or slid behind you it's quite comfy and can be brought to battery quickly. 
It's a good idea to be packing but if you hike and camp smart you shouldn't have any problems.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I'd go with the first round being 00 Buck, then start with the slugs. Or all double buck because you won't have the clear thinking required for aiming.

These boys were on Kodiak island and just couldn't stay away from our pile of silver salmon. We were able to run them off by throwing rocks and yelling "Hey BEAR!"


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Watch this, skip ahead to the 1 minute mark.






-DallanC


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

"Longbow" gave some good advise. What ever you carry, it needs to be accessible for quick use. If it is under your coat, in your waders, or in your day pack you might as well leave it home. "DallanC" video is a good reason.


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## Charina (Aug 16, 2011)

No disrespect whatsoever meant, but how much do you trust dad and sis to be cool under extreme pressure, and not accidently shoot you and/or the other? If i were in a group situation, I'd feel a little less threatened if nonlethal means (spray) were in the hands of others instead of shotguns at the ready. While not free of risks (wind, accidental spray) at least those accidents will be recovered from.

We've all seen animals with destroyed vials go some distance. I'd rather make a bear blind and gasping than risk not stopping it dead in tracks with a shotgun that may or may not be enough.

Plus, the spray gives aim feedback with the visible stream of fluid. Less thinking and more natural response to adjust aim.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bear spray reminds me of this warning:










-DallanC


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## outdoorser (Jan 14, 2013)

A Colt Defender would fit your needs nicely :mrgreen:


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Jimbo and Ned would want a shotgun. Normal people would go for bear spray. Be normal get the spray.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I've spent a lot of time in grizzly bear country; Canada, Alaska, northern end of the Winds, Glacier and Yellowstone NP. 

It's bear spray for me.


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

I'd go with the spray; I'm sure you can find counter opinions and I suppose your question wasn't what's the best defense against a bear. Having a shotgun doesn't seem to me to be a bad idea I'd just personally go with the spray.

Also, what is the definition of a normal person? Only some one who thinks just like me??
Seems normal to me to want to defend yourself and those you care about.

For what it's worth:
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear spray.pdf
http://missoulian.com/news/state-an...cle_b0d338b6-7638-11e1-b809-0019bb2963f4.html


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

wyogoob said:


> I've spent a lot of time in grizzly bear country; Canada, Alaska, northern end of the Winds, Glacier and Yellowstone NP.
> 
> It's bear spray for me.


We've never carried spray but I hear it's incredibly effective.

One note though, my son and I were waiting on the dock in Petersburg on Mitkoff island for a floatplane to Kuiu island for bear when a plane came in with cans of bearspray duct taped to the strut of the wing. (What?) The pilot said they always do that. Can you imagine a can of spray accidently going off or leaking in the plane while you're in the air? Be sure to tell your pilot you have bear spray in your belongings. Chuck.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm disappointed in most of you. Sure he could get bear spray... but he has a GREAT excuse to get a purty new firearm and you want him to get spray? Maybe a pink taser while he's at it? :shock:

Go get a new fun big bore rifle and have fun! :mrgreen:


-DallanC


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

As someone who has years of experience living and working in Alaska dealing with bears (I have done a Defense of Life and Property kill of a brown bear), conducted bear safety trainings, and written bear safety management plans for fieldwork in locations that have some of the world's highest bear concentrations, I'd concur with several of the folks that bear spray is a better option, plus it is a lot cheaper. 

I personally won't go out with someone carrying a firearm for bear protection unless they have gone through a bear protection firearm class. I can recommend a few folks up in AK who I trust for the training, if you'd like to go that route. When I worked for ADF&G, our standard issue was a marine grade Remington 870 12 ga. with slugs for protection and 375 H&H for DLP kills. 

If you decide to go with bear spray, I can provide some recommendations of what to buy and what not to buy. You'll want to buy in AK, as you can't take bear spray through Canada or on an airplane (even checked luggage). 

I've personally tested almost all of the major brands in field conditions (wind, rain, snow, etc.), so I know which work and which don't. I'd recommend you buy several and have your dad and sister practice, so they know how wide the cone is and how far the spray goes. 

One thing off the bat, DO NOT buy bear spray from a major camping outlet that has initials similar to SEI. The product that they sell is expensive (you can check out which one they sell on their website) and had the worst performance I have seen. I think I can urinate farther than the spray traveled. Some old $15 dollar can of bear spray I bought to test had waaay better performance.

Feel free to PM me and I can provide all the details you need.


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## outdoorser (Jan 14, 2013)

DallanC said:


> I'm disappointed in most of you. Sure he could get bear spray... but he has a GREAT excuse to get a purty new firearm and you want him to get spray? Maybe a pink taser while he's at it? :shock:
> 
> Go get a new fun big bore rifle and have fun! :mrgreen:
> 
> -DallanC


I agree Dallan, but I also see why everybody (almost) is recomending bear spray. Looks like its pretty effective from what all i've read. Emphasize on the "read"; i've never had experience using the stuff myself.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Mtnbeer said:


> Feel free to PM me and I can provide all the details you need.


Mtnbeer.....you mind sharing that info here? Could be great reference for others searching out such info.

Thanks!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

The downside of bear spray is you gotta stand your ground while a big azz grizzly is charging so you can fire at it when its 10-15 yards running full stride... firearm you can at least fire a warning shot at something much farther way. You want to use bear spray, I salute your balls of steel 

I've been all over Alaska hunting and fishing, Ketchikan, Sitka, Seward, Homer, Anchorage, even took float planes out in the Mulchatna drainage caribou hunting. Seen alot of bears... I'll stick with a gun.


-DallanC


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So back to the original question that was asked - what shotgun - 
Basic, easy to use pump gun loaded with buckshot and slugs. 
On that list, Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 probably top the list. The "Home defense" versions of both will hold something like 8 shells, and have the shortest legal barrels allowed. Seems like Alaska State Troopers all carry the Remington 870s. Really though, can't go wrong with either of those.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

DallanC said:


> The downside of bear spray is you gotta stand your ground while a big azz grizzly is charging so you can fire at it when its 10-15 yards running full stride... firearm you can at least fire a warning shot at something much farther way. You want to use bear spray, I salute your balls of steel
> 
> I've been all over Alaska hunting and fishing, Ketchikan, Sitka, Seward, Homer, Anchorage, even took float planes out in the Mulchatna drainage caribou hunting. Seen alot of bears... I'll stick with a gun.
> 
> -DallanC


As a veteran Alaska hunter and as someone moving to Afognak island this month, I back up DallanC on the gun thing.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> So back to the original question that was asked - what shotgun -
> Basic, easy to use pump gun loaded with buckshot and slugs.
> On that list, Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 probably top the list. The "Home defense" versions of both will hold something like 8 shells, and have the shortest legal barrels allowed. Seems like Alaska State Troopers all carry the Remington 870s. Really though, can't go wrong with either of those.


I would say either one but with the shortest barrel legal and a ready-sling.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Wait a second here! We're talkin' about Mattinthewild. Let his friends worry about what gun to buy. If there's a mass panicked exodus, Matt will be in front anyway!:mrgreen:


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

DallanC said:


> The downside of bear spray is you gotta stand your ground while a big azz grizzly is charging so you can fire at it when its 10-15 yards running full stride... firearm you can at least fire a warning shot at something much farther way. You want to use bear spray, I salute your balls of steel
> 
> I've been all over Alaska hunting and fishing, Ketchikan, Sitka, Seward, Homer, Anchorage, even took float planes out in the Mulchatna drainage caribou hunting. Seen alot of bears... I'll stick with a gun.
> 
> -DallanC


The problem is, in most situations, charges occur at distances where you have no time for a warning shot. Most charges occur at distances of less than 50 yards, often because the bear was surprised and wasn't aware of your presence until the last second. At 50 yards, you have about 4 seconds. Do you think you can unsling a gun, fire a warning shot, and still have time for a kill shot?

Research has shown that warning shots aren't effective anyways. Bears can run over 35 mph at full bore and when you get that much mass moving, it doesn't stop on a dime. In bear firearm trainings, we were always taught, if you are going to shoot, you shoot to kill.

For coastal bears, their thresholds for human tolerances is fairly high, as long as food is available. I've had bears on Kodiak within twenty yards of me and we all go on about our business. Interior grizzlies often have a lower tolerance for humans, but their population levels are much lower than in coastal areas, so you are less likely to encounter bears. One of the biggest keys to bear safety is making sure they know you are there. Making lots of noise is one of the best things.

Several years ago, I wrote a bear safety plan for fieldwork in a location that has the second highest concentrations of brown bears in the world. We had 30,000 man-hours in a single summer, much of it in dense and bear rich terrain and we didn't have a single negative encounter, let alone an incident. The plan focused our employee training on four things:

Make lots of noise
Be situationally aware (be aware of areas where bears are likely to be, such as a salmon stream while salmon are running)
Stay in groups of three or more
Be trained in the use of bear spray

We didn't want people who are unfamiliar with guns handling them, especially in high stress situations. Plus, it creates a more dangerous situation to have people carrying firearms if they don't have firearm safety ingrained into every fiber of their being. For lethal deterrence, we had several highly trained employees carrying pump shotguns with slugs. Everyone else carried bear spray.


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

gdog said:


> Mtnbeer.....you mind sharing that info here? Could be great reference for others searching out such info.
> 
> Thanks!


I try to be fairly careful about disclosing negative information about companies on public spaces, but I can certainly provide recommendations on who I would recommend. I'm headed to the range to try out a new scope, but can provide info when I'm back.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

MtnBeer, 

I agree with your 4 rules as the best prevention. But I would like to know how many times your crew had to deploy spray and at what distances? 

Personally I do not see any difference in deploying spray or a weapon. They both have to be available and ready for use in seconds. 

I am also struggling with not seeing spray working in a real close attack or an attack through a tent. Even if the spray is deployed why would not the bear just blow through the cloud? In a tent you fog yourself.

PS. You don't even have to mention the bad ones. Just give us insight to the good ones and what makes them good.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I watched a demonstration on bear spray once, or it was suppose to be a demonstration. A grizzly charged the person with the spray, he hit the button when the bear was around 10 yards away and the bear stopped and was headed the other direction before the bear spray cloud dissipated.
Now if you were in a tent the odds are that the bear will have you dragged out of it weather you have spray or a firearm. 

That was good enough for me.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

What about spray deployments at less than 30 feet?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

A Mossberg Mariner would be the gun I'd choose for this one purpose. Loaded with 000 Buck. Short, fast swinging, reliable and can withstand the elements-- never needs to be in the case during a storm.

I had a client use bear spray in Alaska-- he got some blown back in his face and couldn't see for hours. Said he'd rather have been eaten than spend the rest of his time in the bush recovering from bear spray contamination. But the spray worked and he didn't get eaten, nor was he able to see the bear run off. 

Have a great time on your sheep hunt.


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

Huntoholic said:


> MtnBeer,
> 
> I agree with your 4 rules as the best prevention. But I would like to know how many times your crew had to deploy spray and at what distances?
> 
> ...


For the fieldwork, we did not have to spray any bears, because adherence to the other tenets of our safety protocol kept us from being in that situation in the first place. The bears were there. We encountered fresh tracks and sign every single day and several times, saw them at a distance. They don't want to be put in a bad situation any more than we do.

Spray works because it immediately hits a bear's pain receptors. Their mucous membranes are very sensitive (that's why they have excellent sense of smell) and the pain of capsaicin is an immediate jolt to their brain. As we've all seen while hunting, lethal shots to the heart/lungs don't produce immediate responses.

The only immediate response from a firearm is a shot to the nervous system. Watch a bear run and notice how it's head bobs up and down. That's a really tough shot under any circumstance to place a shot into the nervous system on a moving target (and frankly really lucky).

There are downsides to bear spray, wind direction and enclosed spaces being two of them. That said, they still work. The studies by Tom Smith and Steven Herrero have corroborated that bear spray works in close proximity and in less than ideal conditions. It may suck for a while and no one will want to be close to you, but at least you're alive.

If you are camping and worried about bears, a clean camp, proper food storage, and an electric fence are proven highly effective.

If I had one recommendation on the type of bear spray, I would use UDAP. You will want something with minimum 2.0% Capsaicin and at least 7 oz. volume. The reason I like UDAP is that it aerosolizes the spray, creating a fog that makes it very effective and easy to use. You want it to hit their mucous membranes. Their spray has an adequate amount of propellant to spray multiple bursts and creates a nice wide cone. It consistently produced the best results of the types I tested.

You do not want personal protection spray. That has nowhere near enough capsaicin and generally comes out in a stream rather than a fog. Mace and other sprays that cops carry are entirely different sprays than bear spray.

One last thing, DON'T spray the bear spray onto things like your gear or as a perimeter around your camp in the hopes that it will prevent the bear from coming near you. It actually produces the opposite effect. As mentioned before, bear spray works when it is aerosol form. When it's sprayed on items, it basically becomes a delicious spice. You wouldn't want to snort cayenne pepper up your nose, but it's delicious on food. While testing bear spray, I have later watched bears lick the vegetation that the spray fell on.

I hope this all helps!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Serious question on spray: How does wind affect it? Does it matter if its windy? Say a bear is charging you from upwind on a gusty day, any overspray will drift back onto you and it would limit your overall-range. Is it a concern?

-DallanC


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Mtnbeer,

Thanks for your reply.


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

DallanC said:


> Serious question on spray: How does wind affect it? Does it matter if its windy? Say a bear is charging you from upwind on a gusty day, any overspray will drift back onto you and it would limit your overall-range. Is it a concern?
> 
> -DallanC


Bear spray isn't 100% foolproof, but then again, nothing is. Keep in mind, whether it's guns or spray, this is a last resort. There are many things you should be doing before then, and if you're doing them, your chances of needing bear spray or a gun are almost nil.

Wind does has some effect on the overall range. However, a good spray with adequate propellant should still be able to reach out 10-15 yards on a gusty day. There is always concern about spray drifting back on you. Less than 10 MPH headwind, you should be able to sidestep the spray coming back. Any more than that and you'll likely get hit. Manufacturers add colorant to the spray so you can see the fog, which helps you try to avoid it after spraying.

Another thing to note, it is extremely rare to have a bear charge out of the brush with no warning. If you're paying attention to your surroundings, bears will give warning that you are intruding on their space. Woofing, popping their jaws, or even bluff charges. They'll give visual body signals as well (standing up to see you better, hair standing up, etc.). If you find yourself in those situations, the easiest thing to do is assess the situation and if possible, back away (Don't turn your back and run though, that's a big no-no).


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Bear spray and a Mossberg 500 . I bought my "Home Defense Shotgun" from Big 5 (Mossberg) for about $250 and it works really well.:grin:


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## mattinthewild (Mar 12, 2011)

I got bear spray and will take my M4 bin. And a 44.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> I've spent a lot of time in grizzly bear country; Canada, Alaska, northern end of the Winds, Glacier and Yellowstone NP.
> 
> It's bear spray for me.


Bear spray works great.....especially if you incorporate it with a zippo lighter!---SS


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