# 1st vs 2nd Amendment



## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

NRA argues that "video games" create the problem. So their solution is limit 1st amendment?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Both already have limitations.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

What is the citation? If true, there certainly would be some irony involved. Otherwise, should this just be in the humor section?

What do you believe the cause is?


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## riptheirlips (Jun 30, 2008)

I will chime in with my 2 cents. I believe the cause starts in the home. When was the last time you had a young kid knock on your door and ask if he could mow your lawn, or knock and ask if he could shovel the snow off your driveway for 50 cents. I don't believe kids are taught any work ethics now days. Its all TV and video in THEIR own room of course. Can't find a kid to help you haul hay, or anything now days the majority are glued to the TV. Not sure what the problem is but I can guarantee if they take the guns away the killer will still have a gun.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

You may be on to something, the latest KSL article may confirm a lot of this as true, but with mental health being a major factor too there is likely a lot more to the story. http://www.ksl.com/?sid=23451739&nid=15 ... d=queue-14


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## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

I will probably get slammed for this but oh well....You want to know what the problem is in society today?
2 Timothy 3:1-7 (KJV)
_This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth._


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I also like how the chapter ends;


> 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
> 
> 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
> 
> ...


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> What is the citation? If true, there certainly would be some irony involved. Otherwise, should this just be in the humor section?
> 
> What do you believe the cause is?


I figured you get your news from the Fox Fantasy Facts network so here you go.

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/12/21/ ... n-killers/

This is the best quote from that idiot LaPierre



> "There exists in this country, sadly, a callous, corrupt and corrupting industry that sells and sows violence against its own people, through vicious, violent video games with names like 'Bulletstorm,' 'Grand Theft Auto,' 'Mortal Kombat' and 'Splatterhouse.'"
> 
> Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/12/21/ ... z2FoFlcxGn


So he wants to blame the virtual game industry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I remember the 80's when we were told that certain records played backwards contained messages from the devil and would cause people to flip out. I guess idiots are on a cycle and LaPierre and all the other NRA apologists are back to the 80's arguments. :lol: :lol:


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Here are some of my favorites on ignorance



> Ephesians 4:18 - Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
> 
> Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> ...


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks Dukes,
I like these two best.



> James 1:5 - If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
> 
> 1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world


I do the first one daily.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Not religious so I don't have scripture. My .02. We have a whole generation of kids that didn't have grades, didn't keep scores, everyone got a trophy, everyone was special in their own way, they all have huge self esteem. I work with a lot of 18-26yr olds, they all live with mommy(dad isn't always around, another problem). They don't have work ethics, don't have motivation, they come late and leave early. The HR department has studies, and my company is changing the way they do work just to cater to the this generation. I really think that these kids are so catered to, so soft physically, mentally, and emotionally, that when faced with even minor challenges that life throws at them, they are crushed by it. So they lash out, some hide out, and sadly some just go haywire. By the way I am 38, so when I talk about "when I was a kid" it wasn't 1950. I had a job when I was 14(lied about my age to get it), owned a car before i was 16. I got married young(20, no she wasn't knocked up), we put ourselves through school the old fashioned way, we paid cash, then we built a house. My friends that didn't get married early had toys, trucks, hung out in Vegas, but they all worked, a lot to pay for it. The kids I work with have nothing, beater cars, can't afford anything, living with mom. It is a near miracle for them to hit 40 hours in a week. The guys in my age group and I are constantly dumbfounded at their lack of work ethic/motivation/caring. I read all the time about how my kids are gonna need years of college, huge skills, etc to compete with the world. I tell my wife, and oldest son(7) I am going to get him in the top 10% by just teaching him how to show up everyday and do his job, pretty sad, but true. I think that this generation is unprepared for life, add to that the drugs, violence in entertainment, and need to be famous for nothing and you get irrationality like we are seeing.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

bigbr said:


> "Life, Liberty and Property were never intended to be subjected to a majority vote."
> Ezra Taft Benson
> 
> The Second Amendment to our constitution was voted on by a 2/3's majority congressional vote and ratified by the States. The Second Amendment was put in place to protect individual rights of life, liberty and property and a safeguard of individual sovereignty and changes to such amendment were never envisioned to be a changed by a congressional simple majority vote, presidential executive order or judicial review. To do so only contradicts the premise of God given rights, the basis of the United States Constitution, of which the first amendment seeks to elaborate and protect those rights. The last defense against any violation of Life, liberty and property are the right of the individual to own, poses and bear arms in protection of these God give rights and against all who might offend including a tyrannical government who may usurp their authority by violating the sovereignty of the rights of the individual. Let me now give historical evidence to make it perfectly clear as to what level of protection was required and who posed the greatest threat:
> ...


I started out writting this a a responce to your post .....Big


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

They limit access to violent movies (rating system) so they can certainly do the same to video games.


-DallanC


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

One thing is ABSOLUTELY SURE - Guns aren't the root cause of the problem and a ban on certain types or aspects of those types won't change a thing. And that is the ONLY thing the media and .gov is focusing on.
Crazy asocial kids will continue to seek their large moment of fame as a memento of their existence when they depart this world that they are so angry about. "I'll show them!"

Evidently of little note was LaPierre's coupling of desensitizing video games with the MEDIA. He should have left it at the MEDIA. Who planted the concept of mass shootings into the perps mind? What events have caused such a media frenzy and constant bombardment coverage over the past 23 years or so? Shootings like Columbine (during the AWB era) etc that indelibly impressed on any disaffected youth that if you want to be talked about for years to come have have your motives on everybody's minds you just need to kill a lot of innocent helpless people all at once. The higher the body count the better. Pick a place where nobody will shoot back. Many kids don't know who Teddy Roosevelt was but they ALL are aware of Columbine.

These tragedies are _extremely_ profitable to the media. Everybody watches, including all the specials, and advertisement revenue skyrockets. And of course a good portion of the attention is focused on the shooter and _why_ (crazy isn't enough?)

There is no self-examination by the media of the fact that the seed of the idea was planted by them, even though they are aware of and mention the copycat factor. How can people copy if they are never made aware of the methodology in the first place?

The media stands firmly entrenched in their self-righteous defense of their First Amendment rights and will brook no infringement thereupon. And controlling the thought process in America they have the power to do this.

There are no direct cause-and-effect correlations between violent desensitizing video games so beloved of us all as entertainment and people going crazy, though certain a very small percentage that are already unstable are adversely affected. And nobody wants to "have a dialogue" about this (pol-speak and media-speak for let's look at imposing limitations).

Nor will they question the treatment of the mentally ill because the liberal idea of community-based mental health care has eliminated institutions where the seriously disturbed are committed and kept out of society. In other word, a long time ago we kept the most crazy and dangerous among us locked up, whereas now we let them roam free and _hope_ they take their meds. We wouldn't want to lock up people who might shoot kindergarteners because that would be cruel, they say.

But the _media_ is taking a lead role in abetting elements in government in making a direct attack at the Second Amendment only. Evidently they feel that the other amendments aren't so important as the one that pays their wages.

While perhaps LaPierre could have phrased things better, it is amazing that his statements are questioned whereas those by the media aren't by gun owners here.

When the media (ABC) shows the excessive gun violence in Cook Co. IL (Chicago) and goes on and on with interviews with people talking about how bad it is WITHOUT EVER MENTIONING THAT CHICAGO HAS THE STRONGEST ANTI-GUN LAWS IN THE COUNTRY AND HANDGUNS ARE VIRTUALLY PROHIBITED THERE you can see the attempt to control the thought and political processes of America through blatant misrepresentation.
And the family in Tremonton is shown as fluff. Nice people who could do with their gun hobby in order to help those suffering in Chicago and Connecticut.

Worrying about or being upset by any suggestion that they should ban or even have any "dialogue" about your pet video games is a non-starter. Wayne is merely making the point that other possible triggers NEVER get looked at or demonized. ONLY the right to bear militia arms.
And this because powerful forces in our country fear guns in your hands as it could affect them from doing what they want to do to shape our country and profit themselves thereby. They have been crusading at this for over 35 years and only are looking for:

Media control.

A president in line with their views that faces no re-election and will use Executive power to make an end-run around Congress.

A tragedy big enough and horrid enough (and nothing better than one with little kids and a school) to use as an excuse to ramrod their agenda down the throats of fly-over America.

They could care less about mental health, people (often gang and drug involved) getting killed in Chicago and LA, or any of the other things they pretend to care about. Lots of Kindergarteners die every day from drunk drivers, child abuse, disease and bad or no parenting. For that matter, partial-birth abortion is no big deal to them. But if you get a bunch in one place killed by a felonious loon who happened to choose a gun as his tool - then you can roll out the fake tears while you leverage it all into the achievement of your agenda.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

hossblur said:


> Not religious so I don't have scripture. My .02. We have a whole generation of kids that didn't have grades, didn't keep scores, everyone got a trophy, everyone was special in their own way, they all have huge self esteem. I work with a lot of 18-26yr olds, they all live with mommy(dad isn't always around, another problem). They don't have work ethics, don't have motivation, they come late and leave early. The HR department has studies, and my company is changing the way they do work just to cater to the this generation. I really think that these kids are so catered to, so soft physically, mentally, and emotionally, that when faced with even minor challenges that life throws at them, they are crushed by it. So they lash out, some hide out, and sadly some just go haywire.


As a member of this generation of which you speak, allow me to add my thoughts...

You're right! The successful people I know are always the ones who can cope with challenges in a positive way. I had friends in high school who couldn't do that, and they were the ones with all the problems with grades, etc. Rather than work to fix their problems, they simply flipped out their phones and computers and turned to their internet humor sites, games, etc. to get away from their problems instead of face them. With all the entertainment out there, it's so much easier to seek solace in fake and useless things than buckle down and do what needs to be done.

I think lots of people really are growing up without the concept of work=success because they have everything they want provided for them and have no reason to want to progress. I set some fairly ambitious career plans, and my friends always said "I can't believe you actually want to work that hard to do that!" All the while I always thought "and I can't believe you want to go nowhere your entire life." I truly think that lack of ambition is a bigger issue than lack of ability.

It all starts in the home! Kids with stable families and parents who care are about 20 times more likely to succeed than those with lousy parents, divorced parents, frequent relocation, etc.

My mom used to be a teacher. You would absolutely not believe what she has heard some troubled kids say about their family situations. They are consistently the kids who cause the most trouble in class and grow up with major problems.

You can blame guns, video games, media, or whatever else you want to, but I think that parents share more responsibility for the problems you speak of than any object or thing.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

> You can blame guns, video games, media, or whatever else you want to, but I think that parents share more responsibility for the problems you speak of than any object or thing.


That is true. But sometimes some kids just go bad, or have mental issues despite the very best of parents and parenting. We just need to convince the media and the government of that - as well as all the people who make decisions that could threaten our freedoms with feelings instead of facts. The person instead of the hardware.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Violent video games were just part of his speech. Violent video games do not infringe on the First Ammendment because they seek to destroy life. Freedom of Speech does not apply here.

He also talked about parents taking control of the home.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

High Desert Elk said:


> Violent video games were just part of his speech. Violent video games do not infringe on the First Ammendment because they seek to destroy life. Freedom of Speech does not apply here.
> 
> He also talked about parents taking control of the home.


You really feel electronic media is not covered by the first amendment? Everyone has amendments they favor.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> You really feel electronic media is not covered by the first amendment? Everyone has amendments they favor.


You really feel "assault weapons" are not covered by the second amendment? Everyone does indeed have amendments they favor!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> Violent video games were just part of his speech. Violent video games do not infringe on the First Ammendment because they seek to destroy life. Freedom of Speech does not apply here.


There is no life, they are graphical representations only.

I am a 20 year veteran video game programmer, doing AI and gameplay for video games. I've done the "violent" style games before (RainbowSix) along with many other types of games from Medieval combat (Saga), futuristic fantasy combat (StarCraft:Broodwar), flight combat, and alot of fun kids games (Toystory3, Cars2 etc).

I would love to hear how someone could justify one of these small game objects I personally create is somehow "alive".

I absolutely do feel violent games affect people. But I also feel it is a cumulative effect when concidering other forms of media like Movies, music etc etc. If a person is well balanced in life, it doesnt affect them as much but impressionable kids, or kids with mental issues certainly are affected. Parents really need to parent and if a game is marketed to mature players, the kids cant be allowed to access it.

I saw a statistic that 75% of kids under 12 had seen or played God of War, an incredibly brutal and graphic game.

-DallanC


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Walking a fine line there DallanC. Real or make believe, don't matter. Killing people is killing people. You see it enough, it is possible to be brainwashed of sorts. It is possible to develope an alternate world you believe to be real when it's not.

Never said they were alive, said they seek to take life, and I never asked for your resume either.

Man, you read way too deep into things. Either that or you're just too smart for me...


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

DallanC said:


> High Desert Elk said:
> 
> 
> > Violent video games were just part of his speech. Violent video games do not infringe on the First Ammendment because they seek to destroy life. Freedom of Speech does not apply here.
> ...


+1 well said Dallan C..


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