# Fly Fishing In-town Ogden



## Wandering Bruce

I have successful fished the Ogden River from Harrison Blvd. all the way up to Pineview Dam and the Weber River from Morgan up to Rockport Res. but as really cold weather desends upon us I have been become curious how fishing is on the Weber and the Ogden Rivers through Ogden down to the point where the rivers converge. Saturday a friend and I rode our bikes along the Weber River and Ogden River Parkway trails from Riverdale to the mouth of Ogden Canyon and back. The ride was about 20 miles, out & back and there is a lot of river along the parkway trails. The only place I saw fishermen was on the Ogden River from Washington Blvd. up to the mouth of the Ogden Canyon. Most of those were bait fishermen. There were two fly fishermen near the mouth of the canyon. -|\O- 

I read an article last year that was put out by the DWR that mentioned fish counts on the Ogden River. Their fish census was taken along the Ogden River from Washington down to where the Railroad tracks cross the river below Wall Street. The article indicated that there where plenty of fish in this section of the river and that fishermen just needed to know how to caught them. I tried fishing this area of the Ogden River earlier this year without success but there was so much river restoration work going on that I did not see any fish, get any strikes and it was such a mess that I did not continue fishing the area after about an hour of trying.

If anyone has had any success on these in-town sections of the Odgen and Weber Rivers I would love to hear about it. I would especially like to understand how to fish these areas during the winter, like general areas of success, flies used and numbers and type of fish caught. I have fished the Provo River through town with some success. The Provo is a long way for me to travel especially in the Winter and with all the freeway construction. I am looking for a place that is a little closer to fish this Winter. I look forward to your comments. :O•-:


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## middlefork

There was an article in the paper a week or so ago saying they stocked the section they were restoring. I don't fish so I can't help you on what to use.


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## luv2fsh&hnt

scuds usually work well in town.


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## kochanut

might want to PM lunkerhunter2he does a bit of fishing in town and quiet well


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## trout bum

There are many other places to fish that are a little more pleasing to the eye than downtown Ogden so I cant say that I get down there much. All I can say is watch out for sleeping bums and you may want to take some protection, and I dont mean of the latex kind. All though, from what Ive heard, If you are fishing down by FT. Buenaventura, you may want to pack a box.


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## PBH

trout bum said:


> There are many other places to fish that are a little more pleasing to the eye than downtown Ogden so I cant say that I get down there much.


When this project is complete, there won't be many better rivers in Urban areas than this one. I think this project is a pretty good thing, and it's certainly good for the river. You're going to end up with a Blue Ribbon river in the middle of Ogden. How cool is that?


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## trout bum

I doubt it. Nothing stays nice in Ogden. The local community makes sure of that. This is why we cant have nice things!!!!


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## Grandpa D

trout bum said:


> I doubt it. Nothing stays nice in Ogden. The local community makes sure of that. This is why we cant have nice things!!!!


I hope that you are wrong.
The work that was done below the mouth of the canyon, down to Harrison is still looking good. 
With the walking path running along the river, there are now a lot more people using the area and keeping an eye on things.
These improvements will be a good thing to see in the area. 
It will give some pride back to the city and the people that live in the area.
I guess that time will tell though.


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## trout bum

I Hope I am wrong too. I agree the improvements would be a good thing for the river and the city if It would stay nice but you can put make-up on a pig and it is still a pig. There are too many people in the area that dont have any respect for things like that. Let alone themselves. It will be a constant make-over to keep it looking nice.


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## trout bum

The term "blue ribbon" is way over used in my opinion. How can anyone compare the Ogden and weber river with the likes of the Green and other "true" blue ribbon fisheries. Really?


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## PBH

trout bum said:


> The term "blue ribbon" is way over used in my opinion. How can anyone compare the Ogden and weber river with the likes of the Green and other "true" blue ribbon fisheries. Really?


That's because you don't understand what the term "blue ribbon" is. The mission statement of the Blue Ribbon Fishery Advisory Council: 


BRFAC said:


> To identify, enhance and protect those Utah waters and their watersheds that provide, or have the potential to provide, Blue Ribbon quality, public angling experiences for the purpose of preserving and enhancing these valuable economic and natural resources.


Criteria for Blue Ribbon status:



BRFAC said:


> 1. Water quality and quantity. A body of water - warm or cold, flowing or flat - will be considered for Blue Ribbon status if it has sufficient water quality and quantity to sustain a viable fishery.
> 2. The water must be accessible to the public.
> 3. The body of water should possess a natural capacity to produce and maintain a sustainable recreational fishery. Management strategies that will consistently produce fish of significant size and/or numbers to provide a quality experience.
> 4. The water must be able to withstand angling pressure.
> 5. Selection may be based on a specific species.


Based on that criteria, why couldn't the Ogden in downtown be considered once the reconstruction has been completed?

Far too often anglers want to associate "blue ribbon" with "trophy" or even "fly fishing" terms. Utah's Blue Ribbon status is neither "trophy" nor "fly fishing". So, if the term "blue ribbon" is over used, it is by mis-informed anglers that don't understand the meaning of the term in the first place.

FWIW, Utah only has 15 streams/rivers that are classified as "Blue Ribbon". How can "Blue Ribbon" be over used when we only have 15?

http://wildlife.utah.gov/blueribbon/


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## trout bum

The ogden should never be classified the same as the Green no matter what "blue ribbon" means. It will be just like anything else in Ogden that is "reconstructed". Nice for a little while and then it will regress back to what it always was once the locals get thier hands on it.


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## PBH

Trout bum -- forget the people, and think about the water in question for a minute.

1. if the water quality/quantity is sufficient to sustain a viable fishery
2. if the water is accessible to the public
3. if the water possesses a natural capacity to produce and maintain a sustainable fishery, with fish of significant size and/or numbers to provide a quality experience
and
4. if the water is able to withstand pressure

Then why shouldn't the water be considered for Blue Ribbon status, regardless of the city it might run through, then why not?

If you ask my opinion, the Green River is NOT a "blue ribbon" fishery -- but it does meet the criteria for Utah's Blue Ribbon status.

There are people that think that this is a waste, because it's Ogden. Personally, I think Ogden should be commended for what they are doing with their river. I think it will be a model for other urban streams in Utah. Maybe Provo could learn a thing or two from this. Heck, so could Salt Lake City.


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## 280Remington

I think Blue Ribbon for the Ogden is a huge exaggeration. Maybe the comeback river of the decade or something like that, but not blue ribbon. If an NFL team goes 2-14 then the next year they go 9-7, they don't automatically get awarded the Super bowl trophy. I love seeing what the are doing with the Ogden river but it can't be blue ribbon. The quality from rainbow gardens downstream isn't there and from rainbow gardens upstream to the dam it can't be blue ribbon because the public can only legally access 1/4 mile of river and there is over 8 miles of river that is private. Is the dwr seriously considering given the Ogden in town Blue Ribbon?


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## PBH

280Remington said:


> Is the dwr seriously considering given the Ogden in town Blue Ribbon?


Not that I am aware of.

But, is the reconstruction project complete? Once completed, if it meets the criteria, then why not? If it doesn't meet the criteria, then it certainly should not warranty Blue Ribbon status.

All I can say is that when the reconstruction project is complete, the Ogden River through downtown will be a much nicer river that what we have (Coal Creek) running through Cedar City. Coal Creek could certainly be named the "Ugliest River in Utah" since it's "reconstruction" was completed. I am jealous of what is happening in Ogden. They are doing it the right way, and anglers are going to have a nice fishery as a result.


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## 280Remington

I agree PBH. THe Ogden is a great urban fishery. before the stream access law change i used to fish in the canyon all the time. Now I am afraid to. we only have a 1/4 mile or so that is open by the Oaks restaurant. the rest is technically closed to the public. it seems to me they should have put browns in the town part. I think a few weeks ago they dumped hatchery rainbows in. why not browns if they want it to be self sufficient? do you know if the ogden above rainbow gardens is blue ribbon? if it is they need to take it off the list because it is not open to the public, 90% of the river miles are closed under the new law.


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## PBH

No. None of the Ogden is considered Blue Ribbon status.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/blueribbon/map.pdf

As for browns, they'll end up down there eventually on their own, if they aren't already there. How 'bout construction? Is it ongoing? Or complete? (I'm pretty sure it's not complete...)


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## Greenguy88

trout bum said:


> The term "blue ribbon" is way over used in my opinion. How can anyone compare the Ogden and weber river with the likes of the Green and other "true" blue ribbon fisheries. Really?


I dont see what the big deal about the Green is with everybody. I would much rather fish the Weber over the Green any day- closer, and I can catch the same quality/quantity of fish.



> I agree PBH. THe Ogden is a great urban fishery. before the stream access law change i used to fish in the canyon all the time. Now I am afraid to. we only have a 1/4 mile or so that is open by the Oaks restaurant. the rest is technically closed to the public. it seems to me they should have put browns in the town part. I think a few weeks ago they dumped hatchery rainbows in. why not browns if they want it to be self sufficient? do you know if the ogden above rainbow gardens is blue ribbon? if it is they need to take it off the list because it is not open to the public, 90% of the river miles are closed under the new law.


As far as the Ogden, I fish it regularly and its pretty much in my backyard. I like whats happening there but it does have a ways to go in terms of habitat restoration/ cleanup. There is no reason to stock browns in any reaches of the Ogden though. There is plenty of natural reproduction and recruitment, so I think the bows are stocked in there just to add variety to the catch, improve catch rates, etc. WIth regards to the access thing through the canyon, hopefuly HB141 will be overturned and we wont have to worry about that anymore 8) I have never had any encounters with landowners fishing through there though.


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## PBH

Thought this information might be useful considering the topic (In-town Ogden):



Ogden River Restoration Project said:


> The 1.1 mile restoration project presents an urgent opportunity to work with the Ogden City riverfront redevelopment to improve the habitat and water quality in the Ogden River. Ogden City is working with citizens and property owners to create a shared vision for a restored river corridor at the heart of a revitalized downtown core. The planning processes for both the Ogden River Watershed restoration and the downtown Ogden City redevelopment have identified this area as the first major reconstruction priority in Ogden City. While this first restoration priority is a significant undertaking, it is only one of many major green infrastructure projects that Ogden City is pursuing to restore the Ogden River along its full length. The preliminary process of cleaning acres of junked vehicles and dilapidated industrial buildings along the river front has started. The City and the development community have recognized that the river is blighted as well as the adjacent lands. Ogden City wants to start redevelopment with restoration one of our community's greatest assets: the Ogden River.


http://www.riverrestoration.org/project ... ndices.pdf


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## luv2fsh&hnt

I could care less about the blue ribbon designation on any river. As far as I am concerned it is nothing more than a bunch of marketing brouhaha aimed toward enticing tourism. I used to fish the Ogden in town alot.Specifically the section between Monroe and Harrison Blvd. It was a special section of river but when they built the paved trail and the park they changed the course of the river and actually removed alot of the structure that the big browns thrived on. I used to spend hours and hours on that stretch of river and very rarely would have company. Now everybody uses that stretch and it is combat fishing in it's finest form. The rainbows they planted were planted below wall ave but I would imagine the majority have been caught by either humans or cormorants by now. 280 I think your 90% figure is a little exagerated actually alot of the river is accessible through the canyon and almost all of it downstream from Rainbow Gardens to the confluence is accessible. Look on the bright side a suit has been filed to overturn 141 should the suit be successful we will have it all back eventually.


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## kochanut

Greenguy88 said:


> I dont see what the big deal about the Green is with everybody. I would much rather fish the Weber over the Green any day- closer, and I can catch the same quality/quantity of fish.


if not more and better also. the green is juts some where i like to go for fun and the view.


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## PBH

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> I could care less about the blue ribbon designation on any river. As far as I am concerned it is nothing more than a bunch of marketing brouhaha aimed toward enticing tourism.


this is partially true. The designation "blue ribbon" certainly does aim towards marketing, and increased tourism. However, it is still important. The Blue Ribbon Fisheries program also provides money for fish rehabilitation projects. It provides money to improve our fisheries -- any fishery. It provides a way to take a "marginal", or even "poor", fishery and make improvements to that fishery to turn it into a "blue ribbon" candidate. It is certainly more than simply granting a title to a stream, and hoping that the title brings more anglers to the area. This is a program designed to improve our fisheries.


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## trout bum

Ogden River Restoration Project wrote:
Ogden City is working with citizens and property owners to create a shared vision for a restored river corridor at the heart of a revitalized downtown core. 

Is this another one of those tax payer funded projects on private property that we can no longer use?


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## .45

PBH....I never knew all that stuff about 'Blue Ribbon Fisheries'....

Good info....thanks !!


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## poiboy

The in town section of the Ogden I use small flies, sizes 22-18. I don't use too flashy of patterns.


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## sbs20ga

truot bums right.
nothing stays good in Ogden. "lipstick on a pig" is o-so true.
this is a "fishing board" so 'nuf said, but don't fish, or even GO to downtown Ogden without a a strong stomach, gun, and good lawyer.


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## sbs20ga

Thanks PBH, i too always thought "blue ribon"was just a subjective term . glad you let us know that there is actual criteria for the designation. i supose it is likely that at some point way in the future the Ogden might qualify. under the letter of the "rule", but never under the spirit of the rule. who knows, i might fish there if I'm ever rich enough to have body gards accompany me on my fishing trips.


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## Grandpa D

I have had some good trips on the Ogden behind the dinosaur park and also West of Wall.
The walking path is a great addition. It gives some security to anglers. I think that we are over judging the problems on the lower Ogden.


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## poiboy

sbs20ga said:


> Thanks PBH, i too always thought "blue ribon"was just a subjective term . glad you let us know that there is actual criteria for the designation. i supose it is likely that at some point way in the future the Ogden might qualify. under the letter of the "rule", but never under the spirit of the rule. who knows, i might fish there if I'm ever rich enough to have body gards accompany me on my fishing trips.


I'm guessing by your comments that you're not in Ogden much at all. Never have I been harassed or felt fear when fishing this river. I've fished it from Washington Blvd. up to the Oaks, by myself or with my little boy alongside. The situation has always been the same as far as safety goes, no problems at all.


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## Greenguy88

sbs20ga said:


> truot bums right.
> nothing stays good in Ogden. "lipstick on a pig" is o-so true.
> this is a "fishing board" so 'nuf said, but don't fish, or even GO to downtown Ogden without a a strong stomach, gun, and good lawyer.





sbs20ga said:


> Thanks PBH, i too always thought "blue ribon"was just a subjective term . glad you let us know that there is actual criteria for the designation. i supose it is likely that at some point way in the future the Ogden might qualify. under the letter of the "rule", but never under the spirit of the rule. who knows, i might fish there if I'm ever rich enough to have body gards accompany me on my fishing trips.


Dude, you obviously have no clue what your talking about. The Ogden is in my backyard and I fish it weekly from downtown to the canyon, never once fearing for my safety and usually catching multiple browns. Good things are happening in Ogden. Hopefully you are just trolling for responses, if not, please refrain from making further uneducated comments.


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## tacokid789

Wandering Bruce said:


> There were two fly fishermen near the mouth of the canyon. :O•-:


Prob me and a bud of mine. We were fishing this area heavy for a good week around the posting date on this thread. Btw good first post/thread

Ogden is an excellent and overlooked river. It is hard to fish seeing the riparian area is so brushy and canopys the river, but it can be fished with ease once casting skills are honed in. We fish it with 9' 5wt rods no prob. It fishes good in spring right before being blown out due to run-off and then once the run off stops. It also fishes good in the fall and into nov(spawn). It tends to fish better from Monroe blvd up to the dam. There are several good runs, and holes and there are, believe it or not, fish 20"plus still. We fish it very efficiently. Pm me for specifics and pictures.

As far as what flies to use.... Go to's on the Ogden are bh pheasant tails, bh prince nymps, etc... Soft hackle pheasant tails work well as do streamers. Cased caddis patterns also fish well. It really a matter of placement vs fly selection here though. They are tucked under the banks and the better a caster you are the higher your success.

Fishing it a few weeks ago I hooked into a HUGE male on an egg pattern, and lost it downstream. I guess him to be 22" or so. That was "in-town" 
I've never been hasseled or confronted by anyone. The word Ogden just scares the timid folk.

All in all, fishing the Ogden is more of timing and placement vs selection of 
method/bait/flies used. 
It usually fishes very poorly in winter months and low flow conditions. Fish are very spooky during these times and relatively dormant as well.

Fish the Ogden when the flows are up and work the banks!


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## poiboy

tacokid789, you speak wisdom. I've had good success there as well, but 17" has been my best. I take my son there a lot, he loves that river.


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## trout bum

tacokid789 said:


> [Fish the Ogden when the flows are up and work the banks!


Depends on what section you fish. Some places in the canyon flows of 130cfs are too high to be affective. Some stretches you can fish higher flows.


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## tacokid789

trout bum said:


> Depends on what section you fish. Some places in the canyon flows of 130cfs are too high to be affective. Some stretches you can fish higher flows.


100% True, those are the spots i see people kayaking  I doubt people would even dare to fish in those conditions.....


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## cpierce

Good for Ogden! I have always admired Boise's River Front areas. At least the ones I have seen. I think that the more you clean up the area and make it a place people go, the more you push out the undesirable elements. If people begin frequenting the river front it helps to "police" it and the bums etc move out.


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## Grandpa D

cpierce said:


> Good for Ogden! I have always admired Boise's River Front areas. At least the ones I have seen. I think that the more you clean up the area and make it a place people go, the more you push out the undesirable elements. If people begin frequenting the river front it helps to "police" it and the bums etc move out.


This is very true.
I hope that the Ogden will become a nice place to fish or just visit.


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## cpierce

Judging by this DWR study there are some really nice numbers of fish in the Ogden River town sections. 1000/mi in one stretch, 2000/mile in the next, and 500/mi in the final section.


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## Wandering Bruce

tacokid789 thank you for your positive comments and helpful advise. This year I have caught fish on the Ogden River each time (about half dozen times) I fished from April through mid-October. I was most successful from Harrison to the mouth of the canyon. I started fly fishing early this year and caught my first trout on a fly rid near Rainbow Gardens in late April on a Hare's Ear. I had less success in the canyon but I have fished it only a time or two.

cpierce thank you for the youtube video. It stated in the video that there were 2000 Brown Trout per mile in the Wall Street area. I've fished in this area and have never caught a fish. I take it that the DWR study started at the Park where the waterslide is (do not remember the name of it) and that the study did not take in the area near the mouth of the canyon.

Has anyone's fishing success matched what the DWR Study indicates.

tacokid789 indicates that the Ogden River fishes very slow in the winter. I have fished three times since the end of October and have not caught a thing. I see the fish in the pools but I am unable get them to look at my fly even when the fly drifts close enough to hit them. I was hoping that the river had warmer temperatures in-town and that fishing would be better in-town than up the canyon.


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## Grandpa D

The fish are very spooky in the winter.
Low flows and clear water makes it easy for the fish to see you.
Try to keep a low profile and be very stealth. This is also a good time to use a double tapered leader for soft casts.
The fish are also lathargic in the cold of winter so they may not use a lot of energy to chase your fly.


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## PBH

Grandpa D said:


> The fish are also lathargic in the cold of winter so they may not use a lot of energy to chase your fly.


Why? does the water temperature change that much? it certainly isn't below 32 degrees...

What are the water temp differences between fall, and winter on the Ogden, anyone?


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## Grandpa D

PBH,
All I know is that for me, trout fishing in general, slows down in the winter.
I have been told that it is due to slower metabolism. This tells me that the fish eat less and are looking for smaller and easier to get meals.
Do you know something that I don't to dispute this?


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## PBH

dispute it? I just simple think it's a myth.

consider: the Fremont River near Pine Creek runs at a near constant temperature year round. The water is as cold in July as it is in February. So, why would the metabolism of the fish living in that water change in the winter months? Their environment hasn't changed. The Sevier River in Black Canyon is very similar. Numerous spring-fed rivers and streams keep a constant temp.

I believe that most people think about slowed metabolisms because fish (most) are cold blooded, and cold blooded animals lower their metabolism when the temperatures get cold. However, this different fish have different mechanisms, as well as different metabolic rates that do different things depending on temperatures.

So, a largemouth bass might struggle in the winter and be very lethargic in the Ogden River in January. But, a rainbow trout in the same environment might not.

So, is there a significant temperature change in the Ogden River during winter months?


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## Grandpa D

I don't know how much the water temps change but it has been my experience that the fishing drops off significantly in the winter, on the Ogden
I have always associated this with colder water.


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## Greenguy88

I dont think it has to do with the temperature in the river as much as the low flows that are the reason for slower winter fishing there. The water gets dropped down so low that the fish are really spooky. I believe the temp of the Ogden remains fairly consistent due to the water being discharged from the bottom of PV where temperatures fluctuate less than the surface water.


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## PBH

I'm not trying to argue with you Grandpa, so please don't take it that way:

What about ice fishing on reservoirs? Why does trout fishing pick up in the winter through the ice? Wouldn't those same trout be lethargic as well?

Is that water under the ice at Fish Lake (in 100+ feet) any colder/warmer than the water flowing down the river in downtown Ogden? What about at Strawberry Reservoir under the ice in 10 feet of water? Are those fish any more or less lethargic than those in the Ogden River?

Personally, I think other factors might be at work which result in slower fishing for you on rivers in the winter. (as Greenguy eluded to)

Just something to think about...


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## luv2fsh&hnt

I know the water temperature on the Ogden River changes greatly during the course of the year. I wade it in the summer months in my cut offs while I am uncomfortable wading in the winter even with my neoprene waders and I have never seen ice on the river in the summer.


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## PBH

luv2fsh -- I understand. I imagine that that ice is probably around 32 degrees. (what's the outside air temp?)

I am still curious the water temp. Do you fish it frequently? If so, could you take a thermometer the next time you fish it, and sample the water temp? I'm just curious.


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## luv2fsh&hnt

I never have used a thermometer on it. I actually can see the river from my living room window. I started fishing the Ogden on a regular basis in the early 90's and the fishing slows down in the winter. Trout slow down as well in the winter just not as much as some other species of fish. Ice is probably less than 32. Water freezes at 32 and moving water must be much colder than 32 to freeze. I may take some readings through the winter and summer just to see what the actual difference may be.


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## Grandpa D

PBH,
Please don't think that I am arguing with you.
Not at all.
I have high respect for your knowledge and opinions.
What I was stating is what I have been told by people that I also hold in high regard.
Your example of ice fishing really has me thinking now.
I do know that when I fish the Weber and the Ogden in the winter, my number of Trout caught is almost always lower.
The exception for me is Whitefish for some reason. They are easy to catch when I find them.

Thanks for your input and keep it coming,
Grandpa D.


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## SKUNK__BUSTER

Depending on the river, I would say the fishing is slower in winter because of insect hatch rates/ post spawning and the seasons. An angler that can match the hatch in the winter is always going to catch fish.(given the fact that they can meet other circumstances, like line size and excellent presentation of flies/lures. Metabolism does effect fish at times but it differs from species to species too much to assume that is the only factor.


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## Leaky

I'll just through this out as my limited observations and guess.  For me, moving water catch rates increase in the winter as it wears on and with lower flow rates. White fish, increase success in the winter is during spawn and just after??? Trout, food is more scarce and they become more aggressive and rely on bottom stuff, including whitefish and brown eggs and nymph fishing becomes more successful?? Of course minnow/fry imitations would be good for the same reasons. Just my off the top 2 cents.


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## firemanbubba

Went up on the Ogden today by Loren Far park and caught four in 2 hours. I missed three others. Caught two browns, a bow, and this cutty.








The river was running at summer levels it was just a little bit off color. Hooked them on size 16-18 black zebra midges and hares ears. It was a nice quick trip close to home. I have no idea what the water temp was. Hope this helps.


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## tacokid789

Interesting....looks more like a bow...but I do see the orange markings on the posterior end of it's operculum. Cuttbow? Did it have orange slashes on the underneath of it's bottom jaw too? Can't see from pic. Cool catch for sure. If it is indeed a cutt that is a rare find on the Ogden. Cuttbow, possibly more rare. The flow regime is never consistent on the Ogden lol. Summer flows in the winter!? Also zebra midges are a great choice this time of year!

Ps watch out for unusual people lurking in their cars down there behind lorrin Farr park. I had a very unusual encounter a month ago while fishing right through there.


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## Ton_Def

tacokid789 said:


> I had a very unusual encounter a month ago while fishing right through there.


That's not something I would go around telling people! Oh, too late!


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## Greenguy88

Ton_Def said:


> tacokid789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I had a very unusual encounter a month ago while fishing right through there.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not something I would go around telling people! Oh, too late!
Click to expand...

He hasnt walked the same since :O•-:


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## tacokid789

Lol. No really. Nothing happened from this "encounter". It was simply an encounter, not an experience! I was confronted by an older gentleman who was sitting in his car smoking. He asked how the fishing was etc.. He then proceeded to tell me he was a nudist and that he had no problem showing me his....... So yeah lol to say the least, I cut the conversation off at that and walked away, never looking back!!!!! 

After that encounter, I probably saw him there in the same spot, same car, and prob doing dame activity, once a week I'd say. It must be a "meeting place" for select groups of folks


Needless to say, i no longer frequent the area. My routes have changed. I did though notice your vehicle there last time I drove through Ton_Def , just figured you were fishin though


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## LOAH

Nice that you were catching, firemanbubba, but that is your run of the mill planter rainbow. It's just got a bright gill plate. The fins tell all.


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## tacokid789

This is a cutt caught earlier this year on the Ogden. It's resemblance can easily be mistaken for a plantar bow as LOAH mentioned


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## firemanbubba

It did have the red slashes under the jaw. I had my roommate verify it because he didn't think it was a cutty either. He only caught one brown for the day. Sorry for the pic not being the best. I had my rod under one arm and my phone in the same hand so I looked funny takin the pic as it was. I was surprised to find a cut also in the river it was released promptly. I didn't have any encounters but I have seen some strange people down there.


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## kochanut

tacokid789 said:


> After that encounter, I probably saw him there in the same spot, same car, and prob doing dame activity, once a week I'd say. It must be a "meeting place" for select groups of folks


WOW LOLOLOLOLOL!!! i only ever hear about that crap on the news call the cps that stuff aint right!


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## sbs20ga

LOAH's right, that is a planter "rainbow". i believe that our "planters", are a rainbow/cutthroat syerle hybred. Sometimes that slash under the jaw is prominant, sometimes it ain't . 
they don't reproduce that's why they are "put & take". 
They are however trout - fun to chase, fun to catch, and good fighters. nice Ogden fish- you did good.


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## Chaser

sbs20ga said:


> LOAH's right, that is a planter "rainbow". i believe that our "planters", are a rainbow/cutthroat syerle hybred. Sometimes that slash under the jaw is prominant, sometimes it ain't .


The planter bows are genetic triploids, not hybrids of cutts/bows. They are pure, 100% rainbow trout, but they have an extra chromosome, rendering them sterile, so they cannot reproduce. A cuttbow is entirely different.

As far as slashes go- it is NOT completely unique to cutthroats. Cutts just generally have a brighter slash than other species, so that's how they got their name. If you do some reading in the proc, you will see that coloration of the jaw is not THE defining feature of a cutt, nor does it mean a bow is not a bow. Bows may have the coloration slashes, and cutts may not necessarily have the slash. Like LOAH said, you have to look at the other defining features of the fish, such as fins, to tell them apart sometimes.


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## Grandpa D

Here in Utah, we have been calling some trout cut-bows for years.
Chaser is correct in that the rainbow trout that are raises and stocked by the DNR here in Utah are sterile triploid fish.
There are several strains that are produced but all are sterile.
Very few cut-bow trout exist in Utah.

The other myth is that the hatcheries clip the fins on stocked fish. This is rarely done and only in specific waters. This lets anglers tell if a fish is wild or stocked.

Hey PBH,
help me out here.


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## Wandering Bruce

This post is back on the subject of Stream Water Temperature. This year I read a book titled "No Hatch to Match" by Rich Osthoff. I was impressed with the the Water Temperature graph on page 9 of the book. Below is an internet link to the first chapter of this book which includes the graph and the author's comments. http://books.google.com/books?id=o7...m=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
He also has comments about how water temperatures affect Trout activity in each season of the year. We have been discussing Winter fishing (which I have not had any success at as yet). On pages 2 through 5 the author discusses what he sees the fish doing and how they are feeding and where they are holding in the stream during the Winter. He suggests that "the direction of temperature is especially critical. A 35-degree day following a 25 degree day usually trigger some significant midday feeding. A 35-degree day following a 45-degree day usually means slow fishing. Not surprisingly, the best winter fishing usually coincides with unseasonably mild weather"

The high temperature today was near 55-degrees with mild temperatures projected for a couple more days. So according to what the author suggess the next few days should be better than average fishing. Let's give it a try and see how we do. If you are able to get out and fish in the next few days please report your success, and how you achieved your success. Also report your frustrations.


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## PBH

Grandpa -- fin clips are typically done in waters where biologists are tracking certain year-class fish. They are never done for the general public to be able to distinguish a wild vs. a hatchery fish.

The fish in the picture is 100% rainbow. As has been mentioned already, crimson jaw slashes are uncommon in rainbow trout. Remember, rainbow trout and cutthroat trout are VERY closely related. Look at the fins in the two pictures -- they are very different.

Wandering Bruce -- nice find. Good info. One thing to keep in mind, when looking at temperature fluctuations would be the source of the water. The Ogden very well might fit into the category that the book you referenced talks about. However, if you have a high ground-water table, and the majority of the water in the stream is spring water near to the source, temperature fluctuations (regardless of time of year) will be minimal.

good stuff. Now, one other thing to consider when fishing: keep it simple. Don't try to overcomplicate fishing.


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## Catherder

One other small item.



Grandpa D said:


> the rainbow trout that are raises and stocked by the DNR here in Utah are sterile triploid fish.
> There are several strains that are produced but all are sterile.


The DWR uses triploid rainbows at Strawberry and other fisheries where they are concerned about cross breeding with native cutts, but they still also plant regular fertile (diploid) rainbows in most areas.

Most of the hatcheries are still producing diploid rainbows, according to their info pages.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hatcheries/kamas.php

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hatcheries/mantua.php

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hatcheries/loa.php

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hatcheries/glenwood.php
(And others)

I have read that the DWR is considering going to all triploids at some point in the future, but not yet.


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## fstop

Since you guys are already on the subject of fly fishing the Ogden River. Ogden City and the DWR are really trying to encourage people to view/fish all of the rehab work they have done on the river between Wall and Washington. I'll have a story on it in a few weeks as I think it's a great community fishery in the making. The DWR every four or five years "retire" the brood stock out of their hatcheries. This year they had a few hundred rainbows and the Northern region was able to get them and stock them in the Odgen today between Washington and Wall. I believe the number was 600, fourteen to twenty four inch fish. Some were pushing 4-5 pounds. Might make a great afternoon with the kids or a great chance to introduce someone into the fantastic sport of flyfishing. These fish were not in the best of shape, most were missing fins from the rubbing they receive in raceways, but still some bruisers in the bunch. FYI since you were already on the subject...Fstop


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## Chaser

fstop said:


> Since you guys are already on the subject of fly fishing the Ogden River. Ogden City and the DWR are really trying to encourage people to view/fish all of the rehab work they have done on the river between Wall and Washington. I'll have a story on it in a few weeks as I think it's a great community fishery in the making. The DWR every four or five years "retire" the brood stock out of their hatcheries. This year they had a few hundred rainbows and the Northern region was able to get them and stock them in the Odgen today between Washington and Wall. I believe the number was 600, fourteen to twenty four inch fish. Some were pushing 4-5 pounds. Might make a great afternoon with the kids or a great chance to introduce someone into the fantastic sport of flyfishing. These fish were not in the best of shape, most were missing fins from the rubbing they receive in raceways, but still some bruisers in the bunch. FYI since you were already on the subject...Fstop


Thanks for the intel, Adam! That's pretty cool. Hopefully some kids will be able to get out there and catch some of those bigger fish from the brood stock. I don't make it up that way very often, but its good to hear of in-town stream rehab. I wish they could to the same throughout some of the streams in the Salt Lake Valley.


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## Grandpa D

PBH,
I was referencing page 18 of the 2010 Proc where it talks about Bear Lake.
Why would this be in the Proc if it isn't true?


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## luv2fsh&hnt

> Grandpa -- fin clips are typically done in waters where biologists are tracking certain year-class fish. They are never done for the general public to be able to distinguish a wild vs. a hatchery fish.





> PBH,
> I was referencing page 18 of the 2010 Proc where it talks about Bear Lake.
> Why would this be in the Proc if it isn't true?


They specifically clip hatchery cuts that are planted in Bear Lake. Any cut caught at Bear Lake that does not have a clipped,healed adipose fin must be immediately returned because they don't want the wild cuts harvested. They capture them and strip eggs from the females and milk the milt from the males during the spawn.Many of the cuts that are stocked in the northern part of the state can trace their lineage to Bear Lake. Grandpa D is correct.


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## PBH

Grandpa -- that's the first time I've ever seen that put in place -- but not the first time I've heard it discussed. Nice to know -- thanks.


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## poiboy

I just fished Ogden from Monroe to the Harrison bridge, but unlike firemanbubba last week, I got skunked. Stayed there from 2-4pm and got drizzled on the whole time but it's very relaxing just to get out. I won't lie, I stressed out a little because I wanted to catch so I tried different flies but got no takers. I hope next time I hit up the Ogden I can catch something.

Just as a side note since water temp was brought up here, the water was very cold. I don't ever take a thermometer, but I wore the same socks and pants under my waders as always and I froze my toes off. My feet's never gotten this cold whenever I fished on the Weber.


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## kochanut

you might want to PM tacokid or greenguy.... they really have the ogden figured out well and know where and how to get into some nice fish there.


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## sbs20ga

this is all getting pretty interresting - to me anyway- this whole triploid / diploid thing. I, as i'm sure everyone else, have notice, that sometimes you get a rainbow with very good color, overall, generally darker, and sometimes you get one of those washed out silver sided things. I have always thought that this had something to do with the time of year,( even though they don't reproduce, i don't think they know it, so they still exhibit spawning behavior etc.) water temp. that sort of thing, but also, the time the fish has been "living wild". because I have caught both nicely colored fish, and washed out colored fish on the same day. Blowing the "time of year" and "water temp." theories. i know that the time in the natural environment has a BIG effect on the quality/color of the meat. ???? i think i know that.....don't I?
So, do the diploids reproduce, and the triploids don't? when the DNR dumps the brood stock, do they reproduce naturally ?
(if they even live naturally long enough) Do we even have any naturally reproducing rainbows in utah? I'm thinking probably just a few by chance, no real dependable fishery.


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## Grandpa D

There is not a simple answer to your questions.
Using sterile trout helps the DWR to control the numbers of trout in a given water.
Where they don't worry about over population, they will stock old brood stock trout.
In waters that need to have the number of fish more controlled, only sterile fish are used.
There are also waters that the DWR doesn't want cross breading to happen in. These waters are a good place to use sterile fish in.

So how about the hybrid trout. 
Tiger trout are sterile and very aggressive.
They are a good choice for places that have over populations of less desirable fish, like chub, carp, perch, and other bait fish.
They help to balance the population of these fish,

There is a lot of thought and research put into place before fish are stocked.
One of the worst things that can happen is for someone to try and outguess the DWR and illegally stock fish that will destroy the balance that the DWR tries to achieve.

Most of Utah's waters are used for irrigation which directly affects fish.
We see boom and bust fishing happen as we experience droughts and years of flooding.
This isn't as much of a problem in natural lakes, where the water levels don't fluctuate as much.

The DWR does a great job of managing the fishing in Utah.
They have very knowledgeable people and do a good job of balancing the needs of the resourses and the wants of the anglers.


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## PBH

Yes -- there are waters that contain naturally reproducing populations of rainbow trout. To list a few:

Red Creek (Pragonah - Iron County) Reservoir: naturally self-sustaining rainbow trout population. The lake is 100% rainbows, and relies on very little (if any) stocking to maintain the population. In fact, this place has almost too good reproduction!

Kolob Reservoir: This fishery contains both cutthroat and rainbow trout, both of which reproduce successfully and provide ample "wild" fish, including hybrids. Kolob recently underwent some regulation changes. The reason? Too many fish. Reproduction of both rainbows and cutthroat is very good in Kolob, and the fishery certainly relies on natural reproduction.

There are numerous streams and creeks in Utah that have wild populations of self-sustaining rainbow trout as well:
Antimony Creek
Beaver Creek (Tushar Mountains)
Beaver Dam Wash (western Washington County)
EF Sevier River (upstream from Tropic Reservoir)
Parowan Creek


as for trout coloration -- just like humans, each fish is unique. Each fish can develop slightly different coloration patterns. This can be genetic, or environmental. Diet can significantly change the fish, especially the coloration of it's flesh -- flesh coloration can change in a matter of days, depending on diet.

There is a report done by the DWR comparing dipoid vs. triploid that is very interesting -- I'll see if I can find it and get it posted.


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## PBH

Diploid vs. triploid report.

I sure wish I could post pdf files...

http://utah.ptfs.com/awweb/main.jsp?fla ... =1&awdid=1

If that link doesn't work, go here http://publications.utah.gov/ and search "triploid". Click on the first article that comes up: "Performance and survival of triploid and diploid rainbow trout stocked in three southern Utah reservoirs"


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## LOAH

Another thing about coloration of rainbows:

Females vs males can look quite different in coloration.

Males are often darker and more vibrantly colored whereas the females tend to be more silvery. The females usually have a more rounded snout (shorter mouths) and the males can be somewhat pointed with longer mouths extending behind the eye.


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## Catherder

Great paper! It sounds like the diploids still are going to be part of a solid management plan and for good reason.

A few notable quotes from the discussion section;

"In general, cohorts of diploid trout appeared to survive better than triploid
trout."

"survivability may be cause for concern and mortality of
triploids could be exaggerated under less than desirable conditions. If Utah
discontinues the production of diploid trout and mandates all rainbow trout
stocked be triploids, then reduced survival in general and even total year-class
failure can be expected in some situations."

"Conversion from traditional stocking practices of utilizing only diploid trout
to stocking only triploid trout should proceed with caution, especially in waters
with marginal habitat conditions. Changes to 'triploid-only stocking' could impact
traditional sport fisheries and may require an unrealistic demand on hatchery
resources. *Blanket policies of "one size fits all" or "all rainbow trout stocked in
Utah will be triploids" is not necessarily the best management strategy*."

Good stuff, PBH


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## sbs20ga

Thanks PBH, good links, i enjoyed that. How come you know this stuff? you a biologist? 
I think i'm still going to asume that a fish i catch with good ,solid, pink -to- salmon colored flesh has been out of the hatchery longer than the soft watery mushy white flesh that has almost no flavor. i don't think i have ever caught a rainbow over about 12 to 14 inches with that white flesh. gotta be diet, and just age. As for outside coloration-- must be all in my head, but i think fish with darker, more vivid coloring are more agressive strikers, and better fighters that the washed out looking silver ones - i just assumed again that they were "living wild" longer. 
You're right Catherder, it's obvious that there is a valid need for continued raising, and stocking of both diploid, and triploid trout. Looks like a very useful tool in the hands of the guys we depend on to keep sport fishing alive and well.


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## PBH

I'm an armchair biologist. I'm paid to be a computer geek.

but, I've been around real fisheries biologists for a long time...


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## HighNDry

The reason the water is so cold in the Ogden River (my opinion) is the river sees little sunlight. It is in a deep narrow canyon and when the sun heads south, the water is in shadow almost all day. Plus Ogden valley is cold and when Pineview freezes it makes for some cold waters. 

The water level is probably a more critical factor on catch rates. The levels are extremely low in winter. The fish stack up on each other and gather in schools in the pools. You spook one and you spook a thousand. I've seen them race up and down stream for cover and never find it. It's a cold bugger over there in the winter especially in the canyon. You've heard the saying, "Shove this where the sun don't shine!" That is definitely ogden Canyon. BURRRRR!


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## HighNDry

I'm just hoping the rehabilitated area works out. Almost everything in Ogden is painted with grafetti and the buildings in the area being painted green, red, and white.


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## kochanut

i think these show the male/fwmale colrations... first pic the male. but i might have them backwards for all i know


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## LOAH

Those both look like males to me. 

Both snouts are pointed, lips extent past the eye, both are brightly colored.


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## LOAH

Here are a couple of females:

[attachment=4:1dsmadnn]IMGP1711.JPG[/attachment:1dsmadnn]

[attachment=3:1dsmadnn]IMGP8119.JPG[/attachment:1dsmadnn]

vs a couple of males:

[attachment=2:1dsmadnn]IMGP4288.JPG[/attachment:1dsmadnn]

[attachment=1:1dsmadnn]IMGP8118.JPG[/attachment:1dsmadnn]

During the spawn, they can be ridiculously obvious:

[attachment=0:1dsmadnn]IMGP1686.JPG[/attachment:1dsmadnn]


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