# Article on Condors and Lead Poisoning



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Link to article on KSL:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8125207

Seems fair enough. Easy for me to say with little real knowledge of ballistics- I just like to shoot and hunt. I've never gotten much into the science of it which isn't to say that I think it isn't worth knowing. I'm sure I'd be a better hunter with more time spent learning the details---

So, you guys that are passionate about ballistics- would you care if they ever took it so far as to say no lead? Does it matter much other than personal cost?

The only other time I really wondered about this was when fishing the Kenai in alaska. That is one huge, heavy flowing river, but I wondered about the risk of all those fisherman and the lead that is lost in it every year. It is such an amazing resource I just hope that it would never be negatively affected. No clue about the details here either, but wouldn't it be a shame if lead did impact things there. Honestly if you think about it there must be tons of it dumped in by fisherman over a few years of fishing.

Thoughts on the birds and future regs?


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

Not this again...... :roll:


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Really? That good? Glad I could brighten your day.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

This is one of those subjects that just doesn't make sense to me. Eliminating lead from the marshes makes sense. People are concentrated in a small defined area, year after year. Ducks feed on the bottom, thus ingesting the concentrated lead.

The condors on the other hand have me scratching my head. One, how much lead is being left in a gut pile from a bullet? Majority of my bullets pass through. Two, condors from what I understand live in a very rugged area. I just can't imagine a high concentration of hunter left gut piles. Third, not every gut pile is consumed, consumed the same way or even have remaining lead. 

Is there a problem with lead for condors. It appears so. Is it from hunters, I am struggling with that statement. Just does not add up. Maybe its just somebody writing a better article that fills in the holes, but as of right now I'm not sold on "this the hunters fault".

But this year I started loading copper bullets because the technology appears to have had advanced to the point were I think the bullets maybe better in flight and retention of weight, which in the long run generally means a better kill.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm waiting for the next ball to drop - tire shops will be banned from adding lead weights to balance tires, because they may fly off and then be ingested by a condor. 

If as many condors are showing up with lead poisoning as indicated, there has to be some other explanations. The math simply does not work out on it coming from the gut piles when you consider the actual number of kills in a LE area, the # of passthroughs, bullet fragmenting, the actual volume of lead, proability of a condor consuming that amount, etc..... I've read several articles on this and find the science questionable - the assumptions that go into the research I've found questionable. It seems too, that of what I've read, the conclusion of cause-and-effect to the bullet material is reached and then justified. As opppossed to asking the question "What is causing the lead poisoning in condors?" and then evaluating several different scenarios. Some has been done on this front as Peterson so kindly reminded me last time we had this discussion - but I think more needs to be done to find the answer, instead of justifying an answer. 

All that said, copper bullets kill deer just as well so no big deal. But when hunters switch bullets, and condors are still dying of lead poisoning, another (or continued) round of research will be needed. 

Lastly, in the whole evolution of species and survival of the fittest and adaptations for survival arguments that are out there, if a species like the condor needs SO MUCH intervention to survive, is it a prudent thing to tweek the system that much to make it happen. I'm just sayin'.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

I don't really doubt that if birds are dying from lead poisoning that it is coming from any other source than bullets. Maybe not big game, but people shooting rabbits, coyotes, or perhaps big game sometimes as well. 

I think most birds take in rocks for their crop and you'll see them do it on roadsides, but the chances that they are picking up lead on the side of the road instead of pebbles or what not are insanely less than eating any number of carrion which was shot with whatever. They have a beak and a tongue I guess which means they just swallow whatever they can get. It isn't like they are born with lead in them, and they are likely to be inspected carefully when found dead with the price that goes into keeping them. And as far as raqnge goes it is huge. I've heard they concentrate on the UT AZ border, but I remember articles with them around scouts in Flaming Gorge/Uinta area. I'd say between those places there are likely a few hunter killed meals at this very moment. 

How many bullets, or how much lead would it take? Probably not too much. 

Has to be bullets IMO- no other source really.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Why not just shoot them? It'll make the proccess move along faster and we can get back to hunting. :twisted: -O|o- 

Its hard enough killing a dang duck with non toxic shot, now you want us to do it with deer? I think it will have a negative effect on the deer. "Winging" that many having to use light weight copper or steel.


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

SteepNDeep said:


> Really? That good? Glad I could brighten your day.


It's all good, I was referring to the last time this topic was brought up in a thread. I'm too lazy to look it up.......

Personally, I don't buy the reasons for banning lead in this topic. I believe it is on someone's agenda. That's it.

Maybe the condor is like certain ducks, the shoveler is one I believe, that have an increased sensitivity to selenium for example, and in any amount is lethal.

And for the pot stirring, I'd shoot a condor. :twisted:


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## stick_man (Sep 10, 2007)

> I'm waiting for the next ball to drop - tire shops will be banned from adding lead weights to balance tires, because they may fly off and then be ingested by a condor.


Garyfish, not to hijack the thread or anything, but that is already happening. In Kalifornia, the lead weights become illegal at the end of this year. Throughout Utah, we have about one more year and then it is steel or zinc weights. It was probably the same people that produced the "documentation" behind this article that also said that in Kalifornia there are approximately 2 million pounds of wheelweights tossed off of moving vehicles each year. I think that if the lead wheelweights are causing problems, it is all the more reason to go with a higher tin and antimony percentage in the alloy and get away from the nearly pure lead stick-on weights. (the alloys make better bullet casting material anyway for everything except the black powder gus).

Now, back to the topic, lead bullets killing condors? Not a chance! Since lead has to be mined, and is commonly found close to or at the surface of ground areas in it's raw form, and has been around for way longer than guns and bullets, I believe it is just another backdoor attempt to ban hunting, shooting, and the uber-evil GUNS. The condors have already outlived the "expected lifespan" of the species. Let them go.


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## bfr (Apr 26, 2009)

Ditto to what stick_man said.

There are a lot of natural occurring lead deposits that are readily accessible a more consentrated than any hunting kill. IMO it's an attempt to restict and reduce sport hunters and eventually all sport shooting.


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