# Video on point creep



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Posting this, cause he mentions Utah specifically.


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## callofthewild2 (May 10, 2021)

so your saying there's a chance?


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## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Posting this, cause he mentions Utah specifically.


Thank you for posting this. He explains it well. I started big game hunting later in life(50 years old, now 65). Was always an upland and waterfowl hunter, still like it best. I have 15 points for elk. Very slim chance with point creep I will ever draw the rifle tag I want, on the unit I want. Gonna have to come up with a plan B. Probably gonna put in with the grandson (6 points) for LE archery or muzzleloader alone.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

He might explain it, but he and others won’t ever admit to contributing to it as well. This guy is one of the biggest enemies to public land and public hunting opportunities.


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## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

MooseMeat said:


> He might explain it, but he and others won’t ever admit to contributing to it as well. This guy is one of the biggest enemies to public land and public hunting opportunities.


I have no idea who he is, but I can see your point.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> He might explain it, but he and others won’t ever admit to contributing to it as well. This guy is one of the biggest enemies to public land and public hunting opportunities.


I think it's hilarious when Randy complains about other hunters messing up his hunts. As moose points out, this guy has given out the keys to the kingdom to pad his pockets then gets mad when karma goes his way.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I watched the video and there was a few subtle shots fired about “magazines” producing unit tiers and so forth. Isn’t that what gohunt insider does now??

Loose lips sink ships.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

He's right about "draw odds". That is what happened before hoping it predicts the future. The sooner it's made public where "Lemon-back" outfitters shot the gigantor bull, the sooner people will flock to that unit to shoot any of its posterity. Then it will help you decide on where to cash in your LE bull points for an okay 330" bull somewhere else.

He has another video about the best state chance for bull elk, mule deer, and pronghorn bucks and lists MT, WY, CO, UT, AZ, NV, and NM for each.

He's way wrong about NM.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Irish Lad said:


> I have no idea who he is, but I can see your point.


He (and a few others) are the reason we are currently and will continue to lose public opportunities for hunters.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

He also failed to mention that in Utah, only about one half of the tags go to those with maximum points while the rest go to a pool of applicants who have less than maximum points! I got the notion that by posting only the odds for the max-point hunters, he is trying to discourage hunters from even applying for tags in the second group! While it's better if I have maximum points, I don't NEED to have those high numbers of points to draw a tag. Some hunters have even drawn those tags with NO points! Plus, if we don't draw the tag, we'll still get a point for the same price as buying the point.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

elkfromabove said:


> He also failed to mention that in Utah, only about one half of the tags go to those with maximum points while the rest go to a pool of applicants who have less than maximum points! I got the notion that by posting only the odds for the max-point hunters, he is trying to discourage hunters from even applying for tags in the second group! While it's better if I have maximum points, I don't NEED to have those high numbers of points to draw a tag. Some hunters have even drawn those tags with NO points! Plus, if we don't draw the tag, we'll still get a point for the same price as buying the point.


He must be sitting on enough points to where the second draw means something to him, or in a pool with 2 other guys that have the next highest points...


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## legacy (Sep 30, 2007)

A) Don't like this guy (and others like him).
B) Point creep is a killer. I've been applying for the same unit every year for the past 20 years and it's 1 step forward and 2 steps back. Seems like I'm losing ground every year.


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## StorminNorman (Nov 11, 2021)

Why don't folks like him? Just curious, I don't know anything about him


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

StorminNorman said:


> Why don't folks like him? Just curious, I don't know anything about him


I'm guessing because he's done a lot to get more people into hunting, AND he tends to talk too much as to where/when/what to put in for. Both of which create more people afield when everyone prefers to have the place to themselves, or as close to it as you can get. I'm just guessing though, but those would be my reasons if i didn't like someone on youtube. Personally, I don't dislike the guy, but I'm not crazy about channels that promote Utah.


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## StorminNorman (Nov 11, 2021)

Lone_Hunter said:


> I'm guessing because he's done a lot to get more people into hunting, AND he tends to talk too much as to where/when/what to put in for. Both of which create more people afield when everyone prefers to have the place to themselves, or as close to it as you can get. I'm just guessing though, but those would be my reasons if i didn't like someone on youtube. Personally, I don't dislike the guy, but I'm not crazy about channels that promote Utah.


Haha I'm with ya. It's awesome when you get some insights on other places to hunt but when they mention UT I'm like SSSHHHHH!!!! We have enough [email protected] people coming to this state as it is!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There would be point creep even if there was never a TV or YouTube video of telling folks of where to go and what to put in for. 

Most of those who are taking his advise as to where and what to hunt will be non residents that doesn't affect the resident hunter at all. The big problem with point creep is that when you only have a certain amount of tags being offered every year and 100's x the number of hunters putting in for those tags you are going to get point creep no matter what you do. 

I still say that Utah has it all wrong when a hunter can put in for a rifle elk tag, draw that tag and then sit out his waiting period and put in and draw that tag again before others who have been putting in two to three times longer are still waiting on the fence. I have seen that exact thing happen.

And I highly doubt that folks are moving to Utah for the hunting.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Lone_Hunter said:


> I'm guessing because he's done a lot to get more people into hunting, AND he tends to talk too much as to where/when/what to put in for. Both of which create more people afield when everyone prefers to have the place to themselves, or as close to it as you can get. I'm just guessing though, but those would be my reasons if i didn't like someone on youtube. Personally, I don't dislike the guy, but I'm not crazy about channels that promote Utah.


I don't care who he is or what he does as long as he doesn't send them to my gate, or my little place. 
We would tangle if that happened. 
😎


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Critter said:


> [It's] wrong when a hunter can put in for a rifle elk tag, draw that tag...and put in and draw that tag again before others who have been putting in two to three times longer are still waiting on the fence. I have seen that exact thing happen.


That's why I cringe when he talks NM. There is no point system and someone can draw the same tag year after year, or every other year while the next guy puts in for 20 years and never pulls the tag.

There have been record applications the past 3 years because of talk like this.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

From my point of view, videos or channels that show how great it has been in Utah, motivate people to move here, which in turn, makes things less great then they were before. Espeically this day and age when there is a mass movement of people leaving certain states for reasons that don't relate to hunting. The thing is, people move here, and they will eventually get into hunting, its engrained in our culture. If i were in a "lockdown" state, or an "occupied terrotory" right now, i'd be looking at stuff that shows me how the local area is like, from there, id start looking at everything else that i'd need to know in planning a move. Honestly, the only difference between myself and people fleeing those areas right now, is I married a Utah Gal just over 10 years ago.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I wish for the old days when we all had horns and were going to steal your wives and daughters. That kept the riff raff out for a long time.

Darn internet.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

middlefork said:


> I wish for the old days when we all had horns and were going to steal your wives and daughters. That kept the riff raff out for a long time.
> 
> Darn internet.


Wait? what? We can’t steal wives and daughters anymore?
Uh.oh…..


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Laugh all you want, but social media influences people. Scroll down, its sorted by upload date.


https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=move+to+utah&sp=CAI%253D



Last couple years, i've been seeing types of people in the mountain, (some hunting, some not,) that simply weren't here before. I'm sure you have too.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There have been more people out in the woods and on the waters in the last couple of years. In 2020 a lot didn't go to work but depended on the Government checks that they were getting each week. This continued into 2021 with a lot of them not going back to work. They were there because of so much more free time. They also decided that instead of just sitting at home to get out and enjoy where they lived. 

This just didn't happen in Utah but every one of the 50 states.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

How about all the scammers ripping off their employers nowadays, they are out hunting/fishing and claim they are ‘working’.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> And I highly doubt that folks are moving to Utah for the hunting.


I saw on another forum just this week a person post about having 25 points across the board, and in a couple years will retire to Utah to get residency and burn up his points on whatever he can’t draw as a nonresident in the mean time. It absolutely happens.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> I saw on another forum just this week a person post about having 25 points across the board, and in a couple years will retire to Utah to get residency and burn up his points on whatever he can’t draw as a nonresident in the mean time. It absolutely happens.


I can understand this type of thing happening but I highly doubt that there are that many who have just been accumulating points just to move to Utah to hunt. I can understand some who moved out of Utah for the job market and then when they are approaching retirement age moving back to their home state. 

But you have to look at Utah's draw system and the limited amount of tags that are offered each year for all animals. Both are a negative when it comes to actually coming to Utah for it's hunting.

Now if they would of allowed us non residents to put in for all species for the last 30 years to accumulate points I would be packed and back in the state.


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

Like the guy or not, fact is that people who do not support more people getting on the mountain only think about what they currently have and not that it might soon disappear unless the voice of hunters stays/gets loud. And that’s done with more people advocating.

no one likes their honey hole found by someone else but if that means my kids still get to hunt vs Not at all it’s a cost worth paying.

And to those who think hunters voice isn’t an issue I think you are not well informed. Just an indicator of it is that yesterday nickpan asked if I was a cali transplant when there was no reason to assume that unless there is a issue with people moving from other places like California. And lots of them do not have hunting heritage and want to see hunters on the mountain (poor Bambi Syndrom)


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> But you have to look at Utah's draw system and the limited amount of tags that are offered each year for all animals. Both are a negative when it comes to actually coming to Utah for it's hunting.


Not if you’ve been applying as a non res for 15+ years, have that many built up by all species then move back to utah and become a resident. You can have some pretty awesome tags back to back to back to back to back if you drop your standards on applying for the best units in the state and look at it from an opportunity perspective


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Last couple years, i've been seeing types of people in the mountain, (some hunting, some not,) that simply weren't here before. I'm sure you have too.


Dont chirp too loud. 10 years ago, you “simply weren’t here” either to all of us who have been hunting here our whole lives.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

prumpf said:


> Like the guy or not, fact is that people who do not support more people getting on the mountain only think about what they currently have and not that it might soon disappear unless the voice of hunters stays/gets loud. And that’s done with more people advocating.
> 
> no one likes their honey hole found by someone else but if that means my kids still get to hunt vs Not at all it’s a cost worth paying.
> 
> And to those who think hunters voice isn’t an issue I think you are not well informed. Just an indicator of it is that yesterday packout asked if I was a cali transplant when there was no reason to assume that unless there is a issue with people moving from other places like California. And lots of them do not have hunting heritage and want to see hunters on the mountain (poor Bambi Syndrom)


It wasn't packout. Just for the record.

And baring something like a plague that reduces the population back to the level of say 1960 the situation will not be getting better. I can still remember 200,000 plus deer hunters on opening day.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

middlefork said:


> It wasn't packout. Just for the record.
> 
> And baring something like a plague that reduces the population back to the level of say 1960 the situation will not be getting better. I can still remember 200,000 plus deer hunters on opening day.


This right here is something that quite a few on here will never experience. Add to the 200,000+ tag holders the rest of their non hunting family joining them. 

Then there was the time when there was a actual fishing season that started on the first weekend in June. You could almost walk across Strawberry and Deer Creek from boat to boat and you had better get their early if you planned of fishing from the shore. Provo Canyon was also shoulder to shoulder fishermen from the start of the canyon until you hit Deer Creek, then it started again on the north end of Deer Creek.


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

middlefork said:


> It wasn't packout. Just for the record.
> 
> And baring something like a plague that reduces the population back to the level of say 1960 the situation will not be getting better. I can still remember 200,000 plus deer hunters on opening day.


i stand corrected it was Nick pan. Thanks middlefork for keeping my records straight.

So would you rather have no hunting laws at all like some other countries because of certain demographics ideology that won over time?
I wish there was a perfect balance but if I have to choose between yes or no to hunting I hope that there are enough yes votes to make my side win.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I believe in letting people hunt. I don't believe in reducing hunters unless it can be factually proven that they are the problem.

The problem now days is people want to take what they see as the easy approach. Utah reduced hunters by almost 2/3 and it is still struggling. And other states are in the same boat.

No doubt the increase in population has taxed our resources. And I'm not quite so stupid to think that the internet is the driving force. My theory is when we no longer have water to drink then most will leave.


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

I lots of problems with our population size, our wants as society and inability to compromise for sure. Newberg in my opinion is doing a service to the hunting community by promoting hunting which ensures enough people support the thing we love. Has he made money doing so, absolutely. To that I would say way to live the American dream brother!


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Critter said:


> but I highly doubt that there are that many who have just been accumulating points just to move to Utah to hunt.


I never said that. I said as more people move to Utah, more people will get into hunting, it's ingrained in the local culture.



prumpf said:


> Like the guy or not, fact is that people who do not support more people getting on the mountain only think about what they currently have and not that it might soon disappear unless the voice of hunters stays/gets loud. And that’s done with more people advocating.


With public lands, or the privatization thereof, your correct. However if your thinking along the trends of that "decline in hunters" in the case of Utah, id say your incorrect. There is no decline of hunters in Utah. In other states, sure. It was making the headlines the other year when people were consider where conservation was being funded from. In Utah however, there is no decline, only increasing numbers. I think it was last year or the year before I dug into the numbers on that, and if I remember correctlly, in a ballpark sense, there is close to same number of hunting licenses being sold here in Utah, then is in California. Which doesn't sound like much until you look at the total state populations. At the time it was 2.5 million or just under 3 (we are way above that now) vs roughly 39 million. So per capita, Utah has more hunters, with more hunters every year I'm sure.

In fact, I just looked it up: See for yourself, the column i'm looking at is "Paid hunting license holders".


USFWS- WSFR Historical License Data



From 2019 to the present, you'll see a decline in CA and a rise in UT. We had a bit of a jump in 2020 licenese holders vs 2019. I didn't look any further back then 2019, but i'm sure it's more of the same.


https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/Subpages/LicenseInfo/Natl%20Hunting%20License%20Report%202019.pdf





https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/Subpages/LicenseInfo/Natl%20Hunting%20License%20Report%202020.pdf





https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/Subpages/LicenseInfo/Natl%20Hunting%20License%20Report%202021.pdf


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

In the context of Big Game hunting in Utah I think you will have to compare applications over the years versus hunting licenses. It may or may not confirm your findings. While a hunting license is required to apply for big game permits, they also comprise other hunting opportunities that require the license. I don't believe they all apply for big game tags. The competition is in the application process not with hunters on the mountain.

Big game permits for deer have pretty much declined every year since Option 2. Increases in elk and other big game tags have not made up for the decrease in deer tags.

Unfortunately, we as hunters have little to no control of how other users may impact our experience. Can we try ? Yes. Will we succeed? I doubt it.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> I saw on another forum just this week a person post about having 25 points across the board, and in a couple years will retire to Utah to get residency and burn up his points on whatever he can’t draw as a nonresident in the mean time. It absolutely happens.


This is my plan 😉


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

middlefork said:


> In the context of Big Game hunting in Utah I think you will have to compare applications over the years versus hunting licenses. It may or may not confirm your findings. While a hunting license is required to apply for big game permits, they also comprise other hunting opportunities that require the license. I don't believe they all apply for big game tags. The competition is in the application process not with hunters on the mountain.
> 
> Big game permits for deer have pretty much declined every year since Option 2. Increases in elk and other big game tags have not made up for the decrease in deer tags.
> 
> Unfortunately, we as hunters have little to no control of how other users may impact our experience. Can we try ? Yes. Will we succeed? I doubt it.


If you look at the 4th colum, you'll see total number of license, tags, and stamps. Looks to be an aggregate of both resident and non resident totals. You'll see a similar trend.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Lone_Hunter said:


> If you look at the 4th colum, you'll see total number of license, tags, and stamps. Looks to be an aggregate of both resident and non resident totals. You'll see a similar trend.


May be true. The interest may indeed be increasing (leading to the dreaded point creep) but is not resulting in increased participation shoulder to shoulder in your area of operation. To say so is not being honest.

Have you seen an increase of people in your area of operation? For sure. But the vast majority are not competing with you for that elusive animal you are after.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> This is my plan 😉


Don’t tell Critter, he says it doesn’t happen!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> Don’t tell Critter, he says it doesn’t happen!


I won't say that it doesn't happen but I doubt that it happens very often. Of all the non residents that I know that hunt Utah none of them are putting in for all species with a idea of moving to Utah to have a heyday of hunting all of them. 

Think of it this way, you would have to get your wife to agree with moving and I know of very few hunters who could convince their wives to move out of their comfort zone so that they husbands could go hunting.


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

Lone_Hunter said:


> I never said that. I said as more people move to Utah, more people will get into hunting, it's ingrained in the local culture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You Don’t need a decline in raw numbers to end up in the minority. All you need is population growth and those moving to the state not hunting out pacing Hunter growth.

i am sure Hunter growth is growing, heck i am one of them but that adds strength in an environment where we could become the minority quickly. Even if that means someone’s honeyhole has me looking at it too.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

So many other variables add to the equation:

1)We on average a younger and more active state
2)Our family sizes are bigger 
3) Hunting as a tradition is highly valued
4) Amount of public land to hunt
6) Extremely popular tourist destination = increased exposure

As we've seen with housing pressure, the simple fact that we have larger families and a larger portion remain in state was always going to factor into point creep as our herds suffered. I don't know too many people moving to Utah to hunt but it definitely happens. That said, the only people that I've known to factor in hunting on where to move ended up further north.

But Utah doesn't need to recruit more hunters. There simply is no way to offset the role of suburban/urban population growth with such a measure without impacting the experience. And we passed an amendment proactively to deal with that potential reality.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

There’s a lot competition now. I’d like to see a 80/20 ratio 80 going to highest point holders.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

7mm Reloaded said:


> There’s a lot competition now. I’d like to see a 80/20 ratio 80 going to highest point holders.


And how many points do you have again?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The difference between 50+/50- and 80/20 for most tags across the LE and OIL spectrum is very small. 1-3 tags is it on many of the hunts. It’s really not going to make a huge difference in reducing point creep, if at all.

I’ve said it before, the 50+/50- split is the best system available in a world where demand far exceeds supply. Not perfect by any means, but is the best of the imperfect systems. And I really don’t think it’s even particularly close to 2nd place.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

johnnycake said:


> And how many points do you have again?
> [/QUOTE Last year I had enough to draw but 2 people peed in my pool and one only had 6 points and drew a goat. I guess I was trying to be nice with the 80 / 20 how about 100 to max until I draw haha 😂


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

The only constant is change. 

Who here saw the internet grow in the 90's and thought "this won't change a thing"? Information is out there and people are listening. If nothing else the internet allowed people to realize how ****ty the state they live in is. Once you figure that out and start looking for places to live that fit your needs Utah, and most of the west in general, looks pretty good. 

It's an ebb and flow that will eventually reach equilibrium.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

<full random draw>


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> <full random draw>


No.......


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> <full random draw>


There is only one system worse than a full random draw and that’s the full preference point system. For a smart guy, you sure have a terrible take on this one!


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Vanilla said:


> There is only one system worse than a full random draw and that’s the full preference point system. For a smart guy, you sure have a terrible take on this one!


He’s got basically a full random draw as it is being a non res right now… how many tags has he pulled since he left? 🤔 ….yep, that’s what we thought.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

He’s had like 47 tags and I hate him.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Utah’s system is as fair, to everyone, as possible.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

MooseMeat said:


> He’s got basically a full random draw as it is being a non res right now… how many tags has he pulled since he left? 🤔 ….yep, that’s what we thought.


Since leaving Utah I've had an obscene amount of hunting tags every year. But none in Utah, largely because I'm only building points for the thought that maybe one day my kids will want to hunt with family in Utah. The fact that I have to plan +15 yrs in advance to be able to provide them with the opportunity to hunt in Utah if they want to is just absurd. 

But enjoy that point creep.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

johnnycake said:


> Since leaving Utah I've had an obscene amount of hunting tags every year. But none in Utah, largely because I'm only building points for the thought that maybe one day my kids will want to hunt with family in Utah. The fact that I have to plan +15 yrs in advance to be able to provide them with the opportunity to hunt in Utah if they want to is just absurd.
> 
> But enjoy that point creep.


I don’t care about your tags outside of utah. And the fact you aren’t applying in utah tells me plenty. I’ve also had an obscene amount of hunting tags since you’ve been gone as well. 98% of them in utah. The draw works just fine if you play the game and stack the odds as best you can.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Vanilla said:


> There is only one system worse than a full random draw and that’s the full preference point system. For a smart guy, you sure have a terrible take on this one!


That hurts😢lol Its ok the way it is but sometimes fustrating


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> I’ve also had an obscene amount of hunting tags since you’ve been gone as well. 98% of them in utah. The draw works just fine if you play the game and stack the odds as best you can.


How many Moose tags have you had in that timeframe? One might say you have not put a lot of 'Moose Meat' on the table...hehehe...  


I kinda like Nevada's draw system; square the amount of points you have and that is the number of chances you have in the bucket. Then draw based on species and not unit, you get 5 choices and if you draw any of them you lose your points. There is no difference between general and LE in Nevada, deer points are deer points, etc..

Utah's system is pretty good though


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I’ve never applied in Nevada, but as I’ve heard people describe the system I’ve always thought it was the 2nd best draw system out there.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> <full random draw>


You can go 20 years and never draw a tag with a <full random draw>.

That's not saying it doesn't have it's benefits. With a full random draw, you need to have a provision in place that if you draw in year 1 for species 'x', you can't apply for species 'x' in year 2, maybe even year 3.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that if they want to cut point creep way down then they need to make all the LE hunts once in a lifetime or put a 10 year or longer wait period on them. 

The way that it is now they are close to being OIL tags anyway, unless you are archery hunting.


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## Isuckathunting (Sep 15, 2019)

Critter said:


> I think that if they want to cut point creep way down then they need to make all the LE hunts once in a lifetime or put a 10 year or longer wait period on them.
> 
> The way that it is now they are close to being OIL tags anyway, unless you are archery hunting.


This only restricts hunter opportunity more. If you want to only put in for primo units or multi season tags in order to turn LE into OIAL go for it. That's not a change I want to see though. 
I totally disagree that LE tags are once in a lifetime. Even on rifle hunts if you look at units outside Monroe, Beaver and San Juan there's options. HAMS, archery, muzzy, late rifle, even early on some units where with a little more work a good bull can be found. I'm planning on hunting LE elk a lot more than just one time in my life so let's not advocate to get rid of that opportunity.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Airborne said:


> How many Moose tags have you had in that timeframe? One might say you have not put a lot of 'Moose Meat' on the table...hehehe...
> 
> 
> I kinda like Nevada's draw system; square the amount of points you have and that is the number of chances you have in the bucket. Then draw based on species and not unit, you get 5 choices and if you draw any of them you lose your points. There is no difference between general and LE in Nevada, deer points are deer points, etc..
> ...


I haven’t shot any because I already have had a utah bull moose tag in 2008. I did help my dad kill a cow moose in 2017. Plenty of moose meat to go around on that. I’m sitting on max cow moose points, but keep buying points since the current season dates are running through other hunts I already have planned each year.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> I think that if they want to cut point creep way down then they need to make all the LE hunts once in a lifetime or put a 10 year or longer wait period on them.
> 
> The way that it is now they are close to being OIL tags anyway, unless you are archery hunting.


I’m 34. I’ve had 2 LE muzzy elk tags and 2 LE pronghorn tags. I will draw a LE archery elk tag year 1 or 2 that I’m eligible to apply again. They aren’t OIL if you apply for hunts other than San Juan or Henry’s.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

MooseMeat said:


> I’m 34. I’ve had 20 LE muzzy elk tags and 2 LE pronghorn tags. I will draw a LE archery elk tag year 1 or 2 that I’m eligible to apply again. They aren’t OIL if you apply for hunts other than San Juan or Henry’s.


Is that 20 a typo?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I'd say a universal draw, besides maybe OIL but maybe even that. Make people prioritize. Those who want meat hunts can focus on the antlerless or general season. Those who trophies can have the chance for focusing on those hunts and incur longer waits. But having so many different point systems is ludicrous in my opinion and seems like a blatant income drive for DWR. I've just never understood why antlerless was a separate draw. All points in one pot similar to how Critter describes. 

And decrease number of youth hunts. After you've hunted big game x # of times before age 18 you have to wait until you are an adult. We really don't need the recruitment to a higher level.

And no big money tags for conventions. That's rigged for the rich. 

But that's all wishful thinking. We'll likely be stuck with horrible point creep for our lives given our herds and human population.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

To help elk point creep slow a little bit, give us our expo tags back, and also lower the age objective for bulls statewide.
I would rather kill 20 rags in family elk camps over 30 yrs than 2 big bulls in the same time frame while burning up prime hunting years trying to aquire the wrong type of ‘points’.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Isuckathunting said:


> This only restricts hunter opportunity more. If you want to only put in for primo units or multi season tags in order to turn LE into OIAL go for it. That's not a change I want to see though.
> I totally disagree that LE tags are once in a lifetime. Even on rifle hunts if you look at units outside Monroe, Beaver and San Juan there's options. HAMS, archery, muzzy, late rifle, even early on some units where with a little more work a good bull can be found. I'm planning on hunting LE elk a lot more than just one time in my life so let's not advocate to get rid of that opportunity.


I don't see it as restricting hunter opportunity but getting hunters through the system which will slow point creep. You will never eliminate it.


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## cedar (Jul 29, 2013)

Combine cow and bull tags in one draw.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> I don't see it as restricting hunter opportunity but getting hunters through the system which will slow point creep.


Critter, my friend...how in the heck is making all species OIL not limiting hunter opportunity? That means you draw an elk tag, you by law are no longer allowed to draw an elk tag. That by very definition is limiting hunter opportunity.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> Critter, my friend...how in the heck is making all species OIL not limiting hunter opportunity? That means you draw an elk tag, you by law are no longer allowed to draw an elk tag. That by very definition is limiting hunter opportunity.


As opposed to possibly having to wait 15-20 + years to draw that tag again? Where is the opportunity in that other than getting lucky and drawing one of the random draw tags?

You are still capable of going on spike or any bull hunts. That is if you have the time to be able to purchase one of those tags through the computer system.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

To go along with the above, I drew a muzzle loader tag here in Colorado in 2014 with 17 points, I was 61 at the time. I can always start applying for that hunt again but it will take another 17 years before I even have a chance at it, that is unless point creep hits that unit which it hasn't done in the last 3 years. So in order to draw that tag again I'll have to wait until I am 78+ years old. I do hope that I am still able to wander around the hills at 78. The same was with my late season deer tag here. The unit required 15 points and I drew it with 16 when I was 59 so that tag will be out until I am 75+. Essentially both of them were once in a lifetime tags with Colorado's preference point system. 

But while I was waiting to draw both of those tags I hunted deer and elk every year as I was building points..


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> As opposed to possibly having to wait 15-20 + years to draw that tag again?


Yes, I believe hunting every 15-20 years is more than hunting one time in your life. 

Can one of our resident CPAs bust out a spreadsheet to confirm if hunting every 15-20 years is in fact more than hunting one time in your life? 

Of course that is facetious, and while I disagree with the overall policy, it's one that could give more people down the line a better shot to draw a LE tag. But don't tell me it's not a limit on opportunity. Limiting opportunity is exactly what makes it better for those coming in down the line.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

So what would you suggest that should be done to limit point creep?


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Yes, I believe hunting every 15-20 years is more than hunting one time in your life.
> 
> Can one of our resident CPAs bust out a spreadsheet to confirm if hunting every 15-20 years is in fact more than hunting one time in your life?
> 
> Of course that is facetious, and while I disagree with the overall policy, it's one that could give more people down the line a better shot to draw a LE tag. But don't tell me it's not a limit on opportunity. Limiting opportunity is exactly what makes it better for those coming in down the line.


As a max point holder, yes, once in a lifetime. As a lucky random, then yes, 15-20 years is in fact more than hunting one time in your life.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I guess I see limiting opportunity as having to take into account the entire picture, not just the average number of points needed right now. As we know the emphasis is on creep in point creep. How long does it take to add another point to that figure? When my daughter is 40 how many more points would she need compared to now?

Ultimately if more people are getting opportunities at the cost of a person being limited on the number of opportunities they can pull a tag then I'm not convinced that is limiting Hunter opportunity. 

This is one of the big reasons I say limit youth hunts; we are selling them on an ideal they'll never experience again all in the name of recruitment. I think that's a horrible approach that's going to bite us in the long run.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Well to stop the top end point creep- you cap points at say 30. Then points can't creep past 30. Better would be 20 for Utah, but we are already at something like 27? points. 

For OIL species, they should just have an OIL point that isn't species specific. 
There should just be a deer point (not general, limited entry, dh, etc..)


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Critter said:


> So what would you suggest that should be done to limit point creep?


Increase the number of tags for both resident and non resident. Offer more 5 day hunts separated by 2 days in between each hunt to spread out the increase in tags. Forget the trophy quality nonsense. End the rifle rut hunts indefinitely.

This is the *only *way to get rid of the dreaded point creep (sounds like some kind of a disease) and go to a full random draw.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

CPAjeff said:


> Is that 20 a typo?


Chit I wish it wasn’t! Yep, the correct answer is 2.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

MooseMeat said:


> Chit I wish it wasn’t! Yep, the correct answer is 2.


Still, two le elk tags in a state at the age of 34 is pretty sweet!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Let me flesh something out here, and it certainly is not my original thought, but I'm trying to visualize how this would work. Still not sure I would support this, but I'm intrigued by the idea if we really care about points, and the like. (I really don't care...as I said before, I like Utah's 50/50 as it is the best of both worlds) All these changes would have to go together. Any of them without the other would screw things up, IMO. 

1: OIL shifts to one bonus point system not based upon species, you get one OIL tag, regardless of species. You draw your species, you're done. (I hate this, BTW!) 

2: No more general season deer and elk, and all those tags go into the LE deer and elk pool. A deer point is a deer point and an elk point is an elk point. 

3: Allow residents to pull both a deer and elk tag in same season. (If you want to try for a harder elk unit, you can get an easy deer unit, or harder deer unit and spike elk tag...etc) 

4: Only one tag per species per year. (Antlerless will not be included in the same point pool or draw, but you may not draw an antlerless tag and a bull tag in the same year or a doe tag and a buck tag in the same year. You can get a point for the other in those years, but may not have more than one permit for any given species in any year.) 

Does this help with the problem? Certainly a lot less people are going to be hanging on to upper level deer points to try and draw the Pauns, Oak Creek, Henrys, etc if they are not going to be able to hunt deer at all for 20 years while waiting. Likewise with elk, although probably not to the same extent, but will you wait 14 years for a Wasatch muzzy tag if you can't get a general any bull or spike only permit while you wait? I don't know how I feel about this above, but I'm willing to think about it more. I would NOT support it if you were still required to pick between elk or deer if you combined all the points.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Let me flesh something out here, and it certainly is not my original thought, but I'm trying to visualize how this would work. Still not sure I would support this, but I'm intrigued by the idea if we really care about points, and the like. (I really don't care...as I said before, I like Utah's 50/50 as it is the best of both worlds) All these changes would have to go together. Any of them without the other would screw things up, IMO.
> 
> 1: OIL shifts to one bonus point system not based upon species, you get one OIL tag, regardless of species. You draw your species, you're done. (I hate this, BTW!)
> 
> ...


No way on #1. The other 3 are reasonable.

Could also get rid of the spike only and just go general bull statewide.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

High Desert Elk said:


> No way on #1. The other 3 are reasonable.
> 
> Could also get rid of the spike only and just go general bull statewide.


I don't like #1 either, but if we're talking how to reduce point creep, that is really the only way to address it in the OIL pool. Such few tags and so many people, there is no other way to deal with it unless you seriously modify the points system itself.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I could go along with some of those ideas, as long as fees are collected up front.
A whole lotta little steps equal one big step.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

These type of threads this time of year both amuse me and terrify me. Lets see if we can design a better, shinier wheel. Why not insist that everyone walk instead.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MrShane said:


> I could go along with some of those ideas, as long as fees are collected up front.
> A whole lotta little steps equal one big step.


Here's why that won't work. I get a credit card with a $10,000 limit I use only for applications. I put in for an OIL NR Bull Moose and an LE Bull Elk. Total is around $3,000. Draw is complete by late May. I incur some interest on the $3K, but it won't amount to much.

I waste more than that on stupid stuff at the convenience store on my way to check trail cams...


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## MuleDeer123 (Dec 20, 2021)

Randy is a great public land advocate and hunter. Nothing but a great guy who has done a lot of good for conservation, hunting, and hunters. Some of the comments on this thread are pretty short sighted towards a guy who is one of the biggest pillars of western public lands and conservation. Things like point creep are minor issues as opposed to places to hunt and animals on those places to hunt. Conservation and hunting costs a lot of time, money, and activism these days. Good on Randy for doing the things he does, without people like himself or Steven Rinella the hunting publicity would be all garbage.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

I knew it wouldn’t be long until a MeatBeater fan chimed in. I bet you think hushin has been great and beneficial for utah hunting and outdoor recreation


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

High Desert Elk said:


> Here's why that won't work. I get a credit card with a $10,000 limit I use only for applications. I put in for an OIL NR Bull Moose and an LE Bull Elk. Total is around $3,000. Draw is complete by late May. I incur some interest on the $3K, but it won't amount to much.
> 
> I waste more than that on stupid stuff at the convenience store on my way to check trail cams...


That is a good plan, and works great for you and others who are dedicated to the sport.
I would never begrudge that kind of planning.
I’m talking about weeding out those that are not dedicated and are not willing to go to the efforts you do, the guys not willing to put their money where their mouth is….the guys who buy a point because “it’s only ten bucks a point and I blow that much on lunch”.
I’ve heard it a hundred times over the years.
I would guess that just from input I have heard on this forum, applications would go down between 5-10%, humans are just that lazy.
Throw in lack of ammo, land being posted off, price of fuel, etc. and it may be more than 10%.
For example: Look at the drop off of Pheasant hunters as soon as it got a little difficult to go Pheasant hunting!!
This small step in reducing point creep doesn’t drop hunter opportunity even in a minuscule amount, it increases opportunity greatly to those that care.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MrShane said:


> That is a good plan, and works great for you and others who are dedicated to the sport.
> I would never begrudge that kind of planning.
> I’m talking about weeding out those that are not dedicated and are not willing to go to the efforts you do, the guys not willing to put their money where their mouth is….the guys who buy a point because “it’s only ten bucks a point and I blow that much on lunch”.
> I’ve heard it a hundred times over the years.
> ...


Uh I’m not sure what WMAs or access areas you’ve been watching, but everywhere else in utah there hasn’t been a drop off in pheasant hunting any time in the recent past. It’s grown in popularity if anything. Just like every other form of hunting. Except for job hunting. People don’t seem to be doing much of that these days.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MrShane said:


> That is a good plan, and works great for you and others who are dedicated to the sport.
> I would never begrudge that kind of planning.
> I’m talking about weeding out those that are not dedicated and are not willing to go to the efforts you do, the guys not willing to put their money where their mouth is….the guys who buy a point because “it’s only ten bucks a point and I blow that much on lunch”.
> I’ve heard it a hundred times over the years.
> ...


No. Just No! Too many reasons to list.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MrShane said:


> That is a good plan, and works great for you and others who are dedicated to the sport.
> I would never begrudge that kind of planning.
> I’m talking about weeding out those that are not dedicated and are not willing to go to the efforts you do, the guys not willing to put their money where their mouth is….the guys who buy a point because “it’s only ten bucks a point and I blow that much on lunch”.
> I’ve heard it a hundred times over the years.
> ...


I tell this story because it is exactly what happened in NM when they went to pay upfront. The first year it had a small impact. The second year and even smaller impact. By year three, there was no impact and apps have increased each year ever since.

Credit card's are easy to come by, and anyone who hunts these days that plays the tag lottery isn't afraid of dedicating a CC and paying a miniscule amount of interest...


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

MooseMeat said:


> Uh I’m not sure what WMAs or access areas you’ve been watching, but everywhere else in utah there hasn’t been a drop off in pheasant hunting any time in the recent past. It’s grown in popularity if anything. Just like every other form of hunting. Except for job hunting. People don’t seem to be doing much of that these days.


Not sure where you are getting your numbers but they are not reliable.
There used to be a tad under 100k Pheasant hunters in Utah, now it’s down to around 25k.
When things get tough, people get lazy.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

middlefork said:


> No. Just No! Too many reasons to list.


At least list a few reasons, if not at least one?


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

High Desert Elk said:


> I tell this story because it is exactly what happened in NM when they went to pay upfront. The first year it had a small impact. The second year and even smaller impact. By year three, there was no impact and apps have increased each year ever since.
> 
> Credit card's are easy to come by, and anyone who hunts these days that plays the tag lottery isn't afraid of dedicating a CC and paying a miniscule amount of interest...


I appreciate that insight, thank you.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MrShane said:


> Not sure where you are getting your numbers but they are not reliable.
> There used to be a tad under 100k Pheasant hunters in Utah, now it’s down to around 25k.
> When things get tough, people get lazy.


There also use to be a quarter million deer hunters. That’s why I said “recent past”. Where did you get 25k at?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MrShane said:


> At least list a few reasons, if not at least one?


It costs the state money to refund all that money.
You have an assumption that it would make a difference, with no proof.
And last but not least you think it gives you an advantage that someone not in your situation can't match.

If someone doesn't have the funds come the draw. They get bypassed. On to the next guy.

It has been my impression that people who are too lazy to apply, don't.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

MooseMeat said:


> There also use to be a quarter million deer hunters. That’s why I said “recent past”. Where did you get 25k at?


I rounded up, I think it was a tad under 22k actually.
I think I remember it from a PF report or something like that (please correct me if I am wrong).
Regardless, and like High Desert reported from the NM statistics, paying up front WILL lower point creep even if for just a few years.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

middlefork said:


> It costs the state money to refund all that money.
> You have an assumption that it would make a difference, with no proof.
> And last but not least you think it gives you an advantage that someone not in your situation can't match.
> 
> ...


True enough if they don’t have the funds, they get bypassed.
But, they still collect a point.
See where I am going here…..
And, thank you for sharing your reasons.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MrShane said:


> Regardless, and like High Desert reported from the NM statistics, paying up front WILL lower point creep even if for just a few years.


I think you’re greatly misinterpreting what HDE said, and what that means for point creep. A two year slight decline in applications followed by record applications after that will NOT reduce point creep at all, even for a couple years. That isn’t how point creep works.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

MrShane said:


> True enough if they don’t have the funds, they get bypassed.
> But, they still collect a point.
> See where I am going here…..
> And, thank you for sharing your reasons.


Yep, pretty soon those points will be like belly buttons or jelly beans.

Every scenario presented is nothing more than how somebody views the problem. It comes down to how can I get a tag or how are those just joining in going to get a tag. And the truth is some may not. There is not a system out there with guarantees.

So far I've only worried about grand kids. And they are doing ok. I have a couple of great grand kids. I'm afraid they will have to rely on their parents and grand parents to fight the battle. But I don't see the down side in trying to give them the opportunity.

I will say this, if people can't hunt there is no incentive to keep supporting hunting. If they can't see a future, they are lost and it really won't matter if you or I have another opportunity.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The problem is that something needs to be done or we will be stuck with point creep, but then even if something is done and points are included in a number of years we will be right back where we are at now. 

Someone mentioned the youth hunts, I'm all for them but there is also a problem with them. We give the kids easy to get tags for a few years and then we throw them out of the youth group and into the point chasing game that we all are in. I talked to a friend the other day that I hadn't talked to in 35 years, ever since I left Utah. In that time he managed to have 2 boys who loved hunting but once they were out of the youth allotments and had to get into the point game they dropped out. From what I was told they played the game for a few years but decided that it wasn't worth the effort. I know for a fact that tore their dad up because he is a die hard muzzle loader hunter and has put together a number of both flint lock and cap lock muzzle loaders from scratch. He told me that he built each of his boys muzzle loaders that are now safe queens..


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Vanilla said:


> I think you’re greatly misinterpreting what HDE said, and what that means for point creep. A two year slight decline in applications followed by record applications after that will NOT reduce point creep at all, even for a couple years. That isn’t how point creep works.


Possibly, but I’m trying really hard here to help take baby steps to resolution of a problem we have with a very valuable resource we own.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

middlefork said:


> Yep, pretty soon those points will be like belly buttons or jelly beans.
> 
> Every scenario presented is nothing more than how somebody views the problem. It comes down to how can I get a tag or how are those just joining in going to get a tag. And the truth is some may not. There is not a system out there with guarantees.
> 
> ...


So what ideas do you have to slow/stop point creep?
Maybe if we all brainstorm long enough we will come up with something?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Smart kids will apply themselves in school, get great paying jobs and make alot of money. They can use that money to buy tags every year if they want and have enough of it. Lots of people with lots of $$$ hunt every year, they dont even mess with draws when you can just bypass the entire system and buy tags outright.

-DallanC


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

DallanC said:


> Smart kids will apply themselves in school, get great paying jobs and make alot of money. They can use that money to buy tags every year if they want and have enough of it. Lots of people with lots of $$$ hunt every year, they dont even mess with draws when you can just bypass the entire system and buy tags outright.
> 
> -DallanC


Except only a few bright kids get good paying jobs, and then they still have to pay their dues.

The risk ran is losing interest while paying their dues, and then being so tied up in their careers they've forgotten why they got the good job to start with.

Have seen it happen.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

High Desert Elk said:


> Except only a few bright kids get good paying jobs, and then they still have to pay their dues.
> 
> The risk ran is losing interest while paying their dues, and then being so tied up in their careers they've forgotten why they got the good job to start with.
> 
> Have seen it happen.


Great point. 

I found that going up the corporate ladder:

You either have time but no money.
Or, you have money and no time. 

So I climbed back down the ladder a ways. 
Upset some people.....but I got to live where I wanted and was home for dinner every night. 
I did miss some things in the family life before I did it. But I figured it out in time.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Trade school kids are coming out of college with next to no debt, and jobs as much as $80 to start, depending on profession. Give them a few years to gather experience then roll their own business and really start making serious cash.

I know "someone" (dont want to dox him online lol) who started as a lineman. Got a city job, X days on Y days off. Started a tree trimming business on the side for the days off. He makes bank from the lineman job, north of $150k, then makes another 2-4k on the weekends per job doing trees. He paid off his first house, instead of selling it, bought another and rents the first. Got that one paid off, bought another and rents the 2nd. He's gotta be in the $250k a year range now. He will eventually retire with a pension from the city. He's in his 40s atm.

He's probably up at least $500k on the 3 houses over the past few years with the property price growth.

Can everyone do that? Nah... but its certainly doable for those smart and willing to work hard.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> .
> 
> Nah... but its certainly doable for those smart and willing to work hard.
> 
> -DallanC


And this right here is the problem with quite a few of today's youth.

I saw it in my job. The kids get hired and want to be at the top pay right now. The first time that they have to crawl around in some mud they are ready to throw in the towel. Then comes the time that they think that they know everything and start back talking to their boss thinking that they know better. Most quickly find out that if you want to get up in the job that you need to do what your boss tells you to do, but they hardly ever figure this part out. 

I know a electrician who did work in Utah and made dang good money. But his problem was that he always thought that he knew better. One of his dads best friends and his mentor told him to just keep his mouth shut but he never did. He made his way all of the large electrical contracting firms in the state before he found that no company would hire him. He finely got smart but he ended up moving back east and is working at half what he could of been getting in Utah. The big problem is that it took him dang near his whole carrier to learn.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> The problem is that something needs to be done or we will be stuck with point creep, but then even if something is done and points are included in a number of years we will be right back where we are at now.


Honestly, the way the creep keeps creeping, the status quo odds will be for all intents and purposes the same as random draw except for the lucky few who were old enough to apply when the system started and are in the max point pool. But, that pool will also eventually be large enough that the odds are rough slogging even if you do manage to survive long enough to be in the top. 

Embrace the nihilism. Full. Random. Draw. If you do nothing, you'll eventually be there anyway.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Would you be all for full random draw if for example You had 23 resident LE elk points and say 20 OIL and family members with high points and they were to take all that away say next year? IDTSo


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Just Say No to Full Random Draw.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MrShane said:


> Just Say No to Full Random Draw.


I am Vanilla, and I endorse this message!


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Can't apply until 16 years of age. After the age of 50 you age out and are no longer eligible. Full random draw. Is that starting to sound better?


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

middlefork said:


> Can't apply until 16 years of age. After the age of 50 you age out and are no longer eligible. Full random draw. Is that starting to sound better?


I like your idea of not being able to apply until you are 16!
Just like the good old days.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

DallanC said:


> Trade school kids are coming out of college with next to no debt, and jobs as much as $80 to start, depending on profession. Give them a few years to gather experience then roll their own business and really start making serious cash.
> 
> I know "someone" (dont want to dox him online lol) who started as a lineman. Got a city job, X days on Y days off. Started a tree trimming business on the side for the days off. He makes bank from the lineman job, north of $150k, then makes another 2-4k on the weekends per job doing trees. He paid off his first house, instead of selling it, bought another and rents the first. Got that one paid off, bought another and rents the 2nd. He's gotta be in the $250k a year range now. He will eventually retire with a pension from the city. He's in his 40s atm.
> 
> ...


He probably also had the right guidance early on in life, some mentor of sorts. Many, many young adults make the most costly mistakes being bent on following (whoever's) footsteps.

I know I made that mistake.



MrShane said:


> Just Say No to Full Random Draw.





Vanilla said:


> I am Vanilla, and I endorse this message!


Full random draw is appealing only to those who seem to pull (good) tags frequently. For the rest of us, not so much. Lately, I could be 1 of 2 applicants in a full random that offered 3 tags and I still wouldn't draw...


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

middlefork said:


> Can't apply until 16 years of age. After the age of 50 you age out and are no longer eligible. Full random draw. Is that starting to sound better?


The 50 years old thing makes me sad. Too close to home.


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## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

Critter said:


> And this right here is the problem with quite a few of today's youth.
> 
> I saw it in my job. The kids get hired and want to be at the top pay right now. The first time that they have to crawl around in some mud they are ready to throw in the towel. Then comes the time that they think that they know everything and start back talking to their boss thinking that they know better. Most quickly find out that if you want to get up in the job that you need to do what your boss tells you to do, but they hardly ever figure this part out.


Critter, I saw it at the phone company too. I remember one time they sent this new hire out with me and he thought he knew everything already. I finally got fed up and told him I've been doing this job longer than you've been living.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

High Desert Elk said:


> The 50 years old thing makes me sad. Too close to home.


Same here HDE!


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I just had a fantastic idea how to take my >47 big game points out of the point creep equation to help you all out!
I will gladly surrender them all for one measly little LL Deer permit.
See, I’m the good guy who cares about my fellow hunters!!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

7mm Reloaded said:


> Would you be all for full random draw if for example You had 23 resident LE elk points and say 20 OIL and family members with high points and they were to take all that away say next year? IDTSo


Yes actually. I was converted to the theory of FRD before I had drawn my LE elk tag in 2016 with 15 points (max for my age). Shockingly, many friends and family that I have in Utah have +20pts for LE/OIAL and they also agree that the point system is terrible and unfair to anybody who didn't get in in the first ~10-15yrs of the program and would support going to FRD.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Get rid of the draw entirely. 100% dutch auction for all tags 

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Unfair....that's a funny word. 

Seems it would be really unfair to pull the rug out on those who have been building points, whether it's 6 and getting close to an archery tag or 26 and getting close to premium hunt. 

There is absolutely nothing fair about anything you do here, so don't use that word to try and convince me of anything. Fair....ha! That's a cute concept.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Seems it would be really unfair to pull the rug out on those who have been building points, whether it's 6 and getting close to an archery tag or 26 and getting close to premium hunt.


There are 3 of us on this very forum now in the top tier of moose. We've paid our share of entry fees and waited almost 30 years.

The DWR could change it so no more "new" points are issued, that would eventually wear down the pyramid, while remaining "fair" to those who started the system under the existing rules.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I know of 3 hunters who passed away in the last 2 years that had 20+ moose points so that should move a few up in the point game.

I'm just hoping that they allow a motorized wheelchair for when I draw my bison tag


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## callofthewild2 (May 10, 2021)

Critter said:


> I know of 3 hunters who passed away in the last 2 years that had 20+ moose points so that should move a few up in the point game.
> 
> I'm just hoping that they allow a motorized wheelchair for when I draw my bison tag


I thought that was what a side by side or four wheeler was.


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## DIRTYS6X6 (May 19, 2021)

MrShane said:


> True enough if they don’t have the funds, they get bypassed.
> But, they still collect a point.
> See where I am going here…..
> And, thank you for sharing your reasons.


When the point system was introduced I believe in 1994 if no funds were available you were rejected and no points were accrued.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

callofthewild2 said:


> I thought that was what a side by side or four wheeler was.


You can only ride them so far.


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## callofthewild2 (May 10, 2021)

on your bison hunt you won't even need a 4 wheeler or side by side. i have a picture that will either make you laugh or the other bison hunter's on here a little hot under the collar. but to keep on topic i really don't want to see everyone lose all the points that have been acquired over all these years. heaven knows my kids are way behind the 8 ball when the LE tags are concerned. but what do you do but learn to play the cards you are dealt?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

One of the fundamental problems with points, is that it creates a sense of individual ownership or entitlement to a use of public wildlife. Which is false. Joe 70 year old with max points has no more right to public wildlife than Jenny 12 year old. A permit/license does grant that but points? Nah.

I'd wager that the state could eliminate those points tomorrow and point holders wouldn't have a shot in hell of succeeding on a claim that it was an unlawful taking and that some compensation is due. Good luck proving you have a valuable property *right* in those points.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MrShane said:


> I just had a fantastic idea how to take my >47 big game points out of the point creep equation to help you all out!
> I will gladly surrender them all for one measly little LL Deer permit.
> See, I’m the good guy who cares about my fellow hunters!!


I'll do it for a check cut from DWR for 75% of the value of all my points added together.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Vanilla said:


> Unfair....that's a funny word.
> 
> Seems it would be really unfair to pull the rug out on those who have been building points, whether it's 6 and getting close to an archery tag or 26 and getting close to premium hunt.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing fair about anything you do here, so don't use that word to try and convince me of anything. Fair....ha! That's a cute concept.


Does "not cool" work instead of unfair?



Critter said:


> I know of 3 hunters who passed away in the last 2 years that had 20+ moose points so that should move a few up in the point game.
> 
> I'm just hoping that they allow a motorized wheelchair for when I draw my bison tag


Ah, but they won't allow it. It's too tech. We need to put the hunt back into hunting, remember?


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

High Desert Elk said:


> I'll do it for a check cut from DWR for 75% of the value of all my points added together.


I’ll give you 80% for them!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> One of the fundamental problems with points, is that it creates a sense of individual ownership or entitlement to a use of public wildlife. Which is false. Joe 70 year old with max points has no more right to public wildlife than Jenny 12 year old. A permit/license does grant that but points? Nah.
> 
> I'd wager that the state could eliminate those points tomorrow and point holders wouldn't have a shot in hell of succeeding on a claim that it was an unlawful taking and that some compensation is due. Good luck proving you have a valuable property *right* in those points.


Maybe that is true, and maybe it isn't. But it certainly is not any more true than Jenny 12 year old having a property interest right to removing the points of Joe 70 year old. So your argument still doesn't sway. 

Full random draw is stupid, and anyone in Alaska that believes in doing that is stupid too!


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Maybe that is true, and maybe it isn't. But it certainly is not any more true than Jenny 12 year old having a property interest right to removing the points of Joe 70 year old. So your argument still doesn't sway.
> 
> Full random draw is stupid, and anyone in Alaska that believes in doing that is stupid too!


Except your counter is predicated on there actually being a property right in points. Which there isn't.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Except your counter is predicated on there actually being a property right in points. Which there isn't.


Actually, my counter is predicated on your position sucking. Be better!










Mr Cake....I hope you see some sarcasm in my posts. All for the "be better" part, because FRD is a terrible take.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I a...... sorry got lost in the lawyer speak.

Does anyone know if they actually check to make sure all point holders are still alive? Is the number accurate? Or do they just show up forever.

Yes I understand that if they don't apply they slowly drift down the list.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Since they added Mentor tags... yea, they will stay "alive" forever... at least until the points get used up.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I thought that at one time that if you didn't apply for that species that you have points for every few years then you would loose the points. I just went and looked and couldn't see anything about loosing them except for by drawing or purchasing a tag for that animal. 

So it does sound like if a person passes away with points that they will just stay there floating around until they are resurrected and start applying again..


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> I thought that at one time that if you didn't apply for that species that you have points for every few years then you would loose the points. I just went and looked and couldn't see anything about loosing them except for by drawing or purchasing a tag for that animal.
> 
> So it does sound like if a person passes away with points that they will just stay there floating around until they are resurrected and start applying again..


They did pass a thing where if a person was inactive on applying for 2 consecutive years, your points were erased. It was in effect for 1 year and they axed that plan.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Actually, my counter is predicated on your position sucking. Be better!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I know you by now Vanillabean, you're just a big ole softserve  

But it's ok that you're wrong on FRD, that's a Vanilla problem.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> I thought that at one time that if you didn't apply for that species that you have points for every few years then you would loose the points. I just went and looked and couldn't see anything about loosing them except for by drawing or purchasing a tag for that animal.
> 
> So it does sound like if a person passes away with points that they will just stay there floating around until they are resurrected and start applying again..


Who would have thought there might be something good about Covid. j/k


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MrShane said:


> I’ll give you 80% for them!


If it were legit or legal, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

This long brainstorming session sure makes me appreciate OTC archery elk and general season deer.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Since they added Mentor tags... yea, they will stay "alive" forever... at least until the points get used up.
> 
> -DallanC


I think this is a huge problem with increasing the point creep at a fast pace. A lot of people that normally have given up or just don't have the passion to hunt any more are still putting in or buying points, so they can let a youth hunt on their tag.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

ridgetop said:


> I think this is a huge problem with increasing the point creep at a fast pace. A lot of people that normally have given up or just don't have the passion to hunt any more are still putting in or buying points, so they can let a youth hunt on their tag.


I totally fall into that boat! Both my parents have hunted big game in the past, but both have lost the drive to do so currently. As such, they still get points every year for le and oial species. My kids will have some pretty awesome hunts the first few years they are eligible to hunt big game in Utah. I guess I'm glad my parents started having kids in their early 20's - when my kids are old enough, my parents will still be in pretty good shape to hike around the hills.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That is if your parents can draw the tags while your kids are still eligible 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

CPAjeff said:


> I totally fall into that boat! Both my parents have hunted big game in the past, but both have lost the drive to do so currently. As such, they still get points every year for le and oial species. My kids will have some pretty awesome hunts the first few years they are eligible to hunt big game in Utah. I guess I'm glad my parents started having kids in their early 20's - when my kids are old enough, my parents will still be in pretty good shape to hike around the hills.


I don't blame people for doing it but it is definitely causing more of a point creep. On the other hand, I don't think the point creep is as bad as many try to make it out to be. Once a person gets 10 or 15 points, they often share with someone with a lot less points to be able to hunt together. So it's not like all those people with 10+ points will be keeping at it for another 10+ years.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

ridgetop said:


> I don't blame people for doing it but it is definitely causing more of a point creep. On the other hand, I don't think the point creep is as bad as many try to make it out to be. Once a person gets 10 or 15 points, they often share with someone with a lot less points to be able to hunt together. So it's not like all those people with 10+ points will be keeping at it for another 10+ years.


Please tell me who these people are so I can become buddies with them!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

All those that I know of that have quite a few points are quite stingy. About the only people that they might even consider putting into the draw with are family members. 

On another forum a member was looking for someone who had quite a few points so that he and a friend of his could put in with the person with a lot of points in the hopes of drawing a pronghorn tag in Wyoming, he almost got laughed off of the board.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Critter said:


> All those that I know of that have quite a few points are quite stingy. About the only people that they might even consider putting into the draw with are family members.
> 
> On another forum a member was looking for someone who had quite a few points so that he and a friend of his could put in with the person with a lot of points in the hopes of drawing a pronghorn tag in Wyoming, he almost got laughed off of the board.


I was referring to family and close friends sharing points. Also, I've had several people I don't know reach out to me offering to share their points with me for scouting info. on that unit.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

Hard to say what is fair, because fair means different things to different people.

Is FRD fair when some draw regularly while others go years without drawing? That used to be the case in Wyoming before they moved to a point system. Some people drew a tag every year or every other year. Others would go more than 5 years between tags. The Expo tags reflect this as well. I know people who have drawn multiple tags, while I sit among the group who have never drawn one.

I get the frustration with point systems. I can also see the argument that it moves people through the system in an orderly fashion. Unfortunately, when demand far exceeds supply then the line to the front can become crazy long. I'm sitting on 21 moose points and am looking at 20+ years before I'll be in the top bonus pool any unit. At least Utah provides a random component to their point system which allows for some people to get lucky.

Maybe first come first served is most fair. Again, depends on your definition.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Dahlmer said:


> Hard to say what is fair, because fair means different things to different people.
> 
> Is FRD fair when some draw regularly while others go years without drawing? That used to be the case in Wyoming before they moved to a point system. Some people drew a tag every year or every other year. Others would go more than 5 years between tags. The Expo tags reflect this as well. I know people who have drawn multiple tags, while I sit among the group who have never drawn one.


Full random is very fair to the guy who draws every year or every other year. They are also the ones to say "I'd rather go 10 years without drawing knowing I have an equal chance every year rather than being forced to wait because of a point system" Try it some time and then come and talk to me...

Then they say "you just put in for the wrong hunts. You can't expect to draw premium hunts (San Juan early bull LE equivalent) every year. You need to study the odds and tables and chose hunts easier to draw." Never mind they put in for the premium hunts and draw every year, every other year, etc.



Dahlmer said:


> I get the frustration with point systems. I can also see the argument that it moves people through the system in an orderly fashion. Unfortunately, when demand far exceeds supply then the line to the front can become crazy long. I'm sitting on 21 moose points and am looking at 20+ years before I'll be in the top bonus pool any unit. At least Utah provides a random component to their point system which allows for some people to get lucky.
> 
> Maybe first come first served is most fair. Again, depends on your definition.


As mentioned, UT actually has the best of both worlds. Those who "strike out" year after year can eventually be awarded with the chance of drawing a tag every year they apply (until they draw and have the waiting period) as they work their way up the list. 

UT just doesn't offer enough tags and too many premium hunts. That's the real problem.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

High Desert Elk said:


> UT just doesn't offer enough tags and too many premium hunts. That's the real problem.


Bingo!!!

It would help to if you couldn't apply for general season hunts and limited entry hunts in the same year.


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

We should force the State to drop one LE area every year until gone, and make both deer and elk 3 point or better.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Don't need to drop LEs... just lower the average target age of the elk by a year or two, and lower the buck to doe ratio a bit. That would free up a ton of tags.

Also... how many times do we need to crash a unit by making it 3pt or better. It's been tried, it does not work. The units are worse off after the attempt.

-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

High Desert Elk said:


> Full random is very fair to the guy who draws every year or every other year. They are also the ones to say "I'd rather go 10 years without drawing knowing I have an equal chance every year rather than being forced to wait because of a point system" Try it some time and then come and talk to me...
> 
> Then they say "you just put in for the wrong hunts. You can't expect to draw premium hunts (San Juan early bull LE equivalent) every year. You need to study the odds and tables and chose hunts easier to draw." Never mind they put in for the premium hunts and draw every year, every other year, etc.


You are using the fairness of the results (drawing a tag) as a comparison to the fairness of the opportunity (odds of getting a tag). The fairness of the results in FRD is predicated on the fact that all entrants have an equal opportunity in the draw. Statistically, that will result in lucky repeat winners and unlucky schlubs. But all are equally provided the opportunity, the chance to win. 

With points, early adopters and age provides some participants with an advantage in the results. To which points proponents always chime in, "Yeah, I'm entitled to that edge as I've paid my dues and put in year after year." But that is again seeking an entitlement to a public resource (wildlife) that they have no superior claim to by virtue of anything, let alone that they've lived and played the system longer. 

I'm a pretty strong advocate in regulating to ensure equal footing in opportunities, and not so much in regulating to determine results and outcomes. Points systems let the government pick the winners and losers based on who was born first and lives the longest. The only silver lining to keeping point systems in place long enough is that eventually the odds are so atrocious that the advantage of the early adopters is eroded at a practical level. Having a 0.02% draw odds when there are 500 max points holders going for either a bonus tag or one of the 50% remainder isn't practically any different from the 0.01% odds that everybody with (n-1) points faces. In the end, points and FRD converge into essentially the same thing: FRD.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

johnnycake said:


> You are using the fairness of the results (drawing a tag) as a comparison to the fairness of the opportunity (odds of getting a tag). The fairness of the results in FRD is predicated on the fact that all entrants have an equal opportunity in the draw. Statistically, that will result in lucky repeat winners and unlucky schlubs. But all are equally provided the opportunity, the chance to win.
> 
> With points, early adopters and age provides some participants with an advantage in the results. To which points proponents always chime in, "Yeah, I'm entitled to that edge as I've paid my dues and put in year after year." But that is again seeking an entitlement to a public resource (wildlife) that they have no superior claim to by virtue of anything, let alone that they've lived and played the system longer.
> 
> I'm a pretty strong advocate in regulating to ensure equal footing in opportunities, and not so much in regulating to determine results and outcomes. Points systems let the government pick the winners and losers based on who was born first and lives the longest. The only silver lining to keeping point systems in place long enough is that eventually the odds are so atrocious that the advantage of the early adopters is eroded at a practical level. Having a 0.02% draw odds when there are 500 max points holders going for either a bonus tag or one of the 50% remainder isn't practically any different from the 0.01% odds that everybody with (n-1) points faces. In the end, points and FRD converge into essentially the same thing: FRD.


Johnny - I live yearly with the "purity" of the FRD. I full well know how it works and what it represents. My post illustrates the common dialog with those "lucky repeat winners" and the "unlucky schlubs" so I really fail to even see what your point was supposed to be...


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Fair . . . one of the, if not THE, worst four letter f words in the dictionary.

There are a few definitions of the word fair that I like:

1. adjective - (of hair or complexion) light; blond.
2. noun - a beautiful woman
3. verb - (of the weather) become fine.
4. a gathering of people for a variety of entertainment or commercial activities.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

CPAjeff said:


> Fair . . . one of the, if not THE, worst four letter f words in the dictionary.
> 
> There are a few definitions of the word fair that I like:
> 
> ...


I like #2

As everyone should know by now there is nothing fair in life.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Also... how many times do we need to crash a unit by making it 3pt or better. It's been tried, it does not work. The units are worse off after the attempt.
> 
> -DallanC


This x 1,000
That experiment was a fiasco.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

I would like to see the results of a vote among members about this. For FRD-vs For who wants to leave it .


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

DallanC said:


> Don't need to drop LEs... just lower the average target age of the elk by a year or two, and lower the buck to doe ratio a bit. That would free up a ton of tags.
> 
> Also... how many times do we need to crash a unit by making it 3pt or better. It's been tried, it does not work. The units are worse off after the attempt.
> 
> -DallanC


I wrote too quickly and made a mistake, my bad.
I would like to see some elk units 3(or 4 point or better) similar to Colorados success.
As for deer, I would love to see an experimental, non-LE, unit for two points and less to bring back a hunt where you get to kill a small buck for meat but get to see some big bucks for eye candy/breeding purposes.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Click on the create a p


7mm Reloaded said:


> I would like to see the results of a vote among members about this issue. For FRD-vs For 100percent draw-vs For who wants to leave it alone for now .I don’t know how to do one on here? Mods help


Click on create a new post (upper right hand corner) there is an option to create a poll.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

MooseMeat said:


> He might explain it, but he and others won’t ever admit to contributing to it as well. This guy is one of the biggest enemies to public land and public hunting opportunities.


He is just a regular guy who made a career out of hunting, which is something that most of us would like to do; but can't.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

MooseMeat said:


> I knew it wouldn’t be long until a MeatBeater fan chimed in. I bet you think hushin has been great and beneficial for utah hunting and outdoor recreation


Does it matter?

It is regular people with a job in a hunting and fishing. 

If you do not like what they do, then you do not have to watch or partake.

There are 1,000's of Youtube channels with 'something something' outdoors/outfitters and they have not made it to the levels these two have made it too. 

I understand with success, it leads to people being a bit more adversarial towards the individuals. 

However, you gotta respect the hustle. 

I do know that MeatEater due to being on NetFlix has gotten a few people into hunting, which due to the Pittman and Robinson generates money to wildlife.


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