# Recreation OVERLOAD



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

The Wife and I headed up the mountain yesterday (8/14) morning to build a bait site for Yogi and get ready for the opening next Saturday.
Spent 6 hours setting up a bait crib and packing 80 pounds of bait into it. The area is thick, rocky and steep to get to the site.

On the way up in the SxS there were close to 20 cheap tents set up in strategic locations. I knew these tents were put there by folks "saving there spot".

On the way back to the truck, I couldn't believe how many trailers had pulled into the area. Tents removed and trailers setting up. If a piece of real-estate that fit a trailer was available, it was taken. It reminded me of a Parade Route, with people placing claim to their chunk of ground waiting for the Grand Marshal to start the festivities.

One camp had so many RV's in it, that one of the trailers was literally a foot off the road. With the slide extended, it would be in the road.

It's crazy! what the he!! is happening?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Welcome to the new normal. 

With all their free time the last couple of years folks have rediscovered the outdoors. 

However one thing that I have noticed is that there are a lot of trailers for sale now after people purchased them with their covid checks and now realize that they can't afford them.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Critter said:


> Welcome to the new normal.
> 
> With all their free time the last couple of years folks have rediscovered the outdoors.
> 
> However one thing that I have noticed is that there are a lot of trailers for sale now after people purchased them with their covid checks and now realize that they can't afford them.


Some of these "camps" had newer trailers that I know are north of 80K, newer diesel trucks lifted, and UTV's that are close to 40K. If I had that kind of money, I'd be investing in my retirement so I could enjoy the golden years.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The new idea is to live for the moment and not to worry about the future. 

I know a few people who purchase new trailers and trucks every couple of years just to stay up with the Jones next door. One friend has filed bankruptcy so many times that I can't believe that he can even get a loan, but he does. He also has the newest and fanciest trucks and trailers. 

You have to figure that some of us here were taught the value of good credit and that the only person that was going to take care of us once we retired is ourselves. But that idea is out the window anymore.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Critter said:


> The new idea is to live for the moment and not to worry about the future.
> 
> I know a few people who purchase new trailers and trucks every couple of years just to stay up with the Jones next door. One friend has filed bankruptcy so many times that I can't believe that he can even get a loan, but he does. He also has the newest and fanciest trucks and trailers.
> 
> You have to figure that some of us here were taught the value of good credit and that the only person that was going to take care of us once we retired is ourselves. But that idea is out the window anymore.


I have a "friend" that received an inheritance that his parents worked to the bone to acquire. They past and he got the money. He has acquired a lot of toys and hasn't any regard to what it takes to get that kind of financial security. If he keeps going, I bet he blows it within a couple years.

This is a little off topic, but it does have relevance to over crowded dispersed camping.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

The definition of "camping" and "getting out into the outdoors" has certainly changes over the last few years. These massive parking lots of campers with the huge 5th wheelers, huge pickup truck, SxS's, seems to be the norm now days.
But even with all that visual clutter, the one thing that spoils the modern outdoor experience for me is the noise. The modern camping area is so loud. Why can't people be still? Why must everything they do be so noisy? Quiet is the very essence of "outdoors".
You can still find those quiet areas, those peaceful places, but not when your idea of camping is what we see advertised on TV ads for those "necessary toys" of modern camping.


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

My favorite new norm is all the toilet paper and turds all over the ground.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

one4fishing said:


> My favorite new norm is all the toilet paper and turds all over the ground.


I agree! What a joke that is now. 

For what it's worth, I did see two "tree cops" yesterday. One was out of his truck looking at the stream. The other was motoring up the road.


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

I almost dread heading out now days for the reasons you mention. Utah is way bad and I find myself drifting to remote Idaho and other places more and more now days. I go to try and escape the noise, trash and masses.. Hard to get away from it...


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

I constantly bitch about this all the time. The bottom line I think is overpopulation. Lots of reasons why, but I think that's what it boils down to. Most of the bad habits you'll see , I attribute to people who recently relocated from California, Washington, and Oregon. The thing is, I have a point of caparison. I moved here in 2011, and could compare and contrast ad nausum. The bottom line on that however, is that I've been seeing stuff here in Utah now, that I haven't seen in YEARS, and when I do see it, I recognize it for what it is. It used to be that people, and many probably still do, live in a bubble. That bubble that is uniquely Utahn. Utah is losing its innocence. Both in the city, and in the mountains.

I should point out another problem is the mass migration in terms of culture. Utah IS losing it's culture. When people move in small numbers, they'll intergrate and adapt to the local customs and traditions of the place they moved to. When they move in mass numbers, they'll get cliquish, not integrate, and keep doing as they always have. Birds of a feather flock together. Case in point, I've seen it a couple of times when i'm "talking shop" at sunday family dinners, and they'll be some couple I haven't seen before. Turns out they were from California, and the instant they find out I used to live there - suddenly they want to be my best bud. Otherwise, they just sit in a corner. It sickens me.

Now as the mountains go, call it a bunch of BS if you want, but I'm not a fan of public lands in southern Utah. The reason being, is to me at least, you can sense it, feel it, they are TAME. Not wild, and overrun with people. I never got that sense in Northern Utah. Now, i feel as if they are losing their wild aspect to them. They are becoming tame.

I hate it, but the only thing I can think of to do, is adjust to the times. 
Ditched the trailer for canvas hot tent. 
Family camps occur now when it's colder. Less people.
Be willing to backpack more. Even if its just 1/2 to 1 mile. Just get away from that blasted road. Yeah I know its hard to do, we've so many of them.

I dunno, it's a pooch screw. Just yesterday I went to glass a calving area I know of. I'm not even gonna bother. The road going in was compacted so much, it may as well be paved when it used to be dusty not even a couple years ago. Dudes everywhere glassing or shooting bows. That's when it hit me. The reason there's so many archers is because those tags are unlimited. In 2019 Rifle/muzzy tags sold out in 10 to 19 days. Now they sell out in 4-8 hours. So much demand now. I'll bet eventually DWR starts to limit the number of archery tags once enough cows are harvested. Not because these flood of people into archery are any good, no, because they'll harvest enough cows by shear force of numbers.

Oh and to hell with Silicon slopes. There's a reason why Idaho has about 1 million less people than Utah. They don't have a "silicon" sector as far as I know. After the Olympics, that I think is the tech sector here is the number 1 cultprit for letting the secret of Utah out. Think about it, top 3 car tags: Washington, Oregon, and California. WHere's the Tech sector been residing at traditionally? Yeah......Now watch the state turn purple and go the way of colorado. Give it time, odds are it will happen.

My 2 angry cents.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

* I'll bet eventually DWR starts to limit the number of archery tags once enough cows are harvested. Not because these flood of people into archery are any good, no, because they'll harvest enough cows by shear force of numbers.*

I disagree with your comment. The one reason why, is it's a money maker for the DWR/State. The odds of harvesting an elk with archery tackle is very low. The person going for the first time could possibly see how difficult it really is and give it up. I've seen more Archery tackle being sold on KSL than in years past. I think these are the guys giving the sport up.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

When they start limiting archery tags it will because of people complaining of over crowding not because of killing too many elk.

Are there a lot of people out there? Sure and the vast majority are not there to compete for your secret honey hole. I'm not exactly clear on how you expect to turn back the clock. If the amount of people "out there' bugs you just stay home and enjoy your living space.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> * I'll bet eventually DWR starts to limit the number of archery tags once enough cows are harvested. Not because these flood of people into archery are any good, no, because they'll harvest enough cows by shear force of numbers.*
> 
> I disagree with your comment. The one reason why, is it's a money maker for the DWR/State.


You have a good point there, but I still think they'll reassess later.



> The odds of harvesting an elk with archery tackle is very low. The person going for the first time could possibly see how difficult it really is and give it up. I've seen more Archery tackle being sold on KSL than in years past. I think these are the guys giving the sport up.


I know harvesting with archery is very low, and I hope you are right about people giving up, but it doesn't match what I'm seeing in the mountains in terms of shear numbers of people. Although, those same people might adding to the onus of moving general season elk to a draw later on. I think they'll do it eventually. Either way, Utah as it was, as it should be, is on it's way out. I don't like it, but I can't deny what I'm seeing. I was out on skyline the other day, first time in at least a year, maybe two - Ummm yeah that was a mistake.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

What your seeing is spot on in the shear mass of folks in the outdoors in the past 5 years. I have never seen the area I was in with so many camps. The days of the quiet camping are past I think, unless you do the off the beaten path, hike in camp. 
This is when I have regrets of selling a cabin lot a few years ago I owned for more than 25 years.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

The mass crowding on the public has a lot of people looking to buy private. The 20 acre lots up around my place have gone crazy. Bare ground lots are going double from just 2 years ago.
I didn't buy the 20 acres next to me 3 or 4 years ago when it went up for sale........I really regret that mistake !! 
It is way more than double now.
Plus, I wouldn't have the neighbor I have now.

I have a guy that has told me to name my price
several times for ours. I am not ready to sell yet.
Maybe in another 5ish years. I told him that.
I threw out a crazy high price to try to discourage him because he was trying to change my mind.

He didn't even blink, and said no problem, would pay that anytime.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

2full said:


> The mass crowding on the public has a lot of people looking to buy private. The 20 acre lots up around my place have gone crazy. Bare ground lots are going double from just 2 years ago.
> I didn't buy the 20 acres next to me 3 or 4 years ago when it went up for sale........I really regret that mistake !!
> It is way more than double now.
> Plus, I wouldn't have the neighbor I have now.
> ...


I picked up 2, 2 acre lots back in 1990 for $3,600 each. Split one with my sister 10 years ago at no cost to them. Sold the other lot I was going to build on for a little over 20K. 

Same thing, purchaser threw a cash offer out and I took it.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Utah's outdoor and tourism boom has been going on as a trend for 20+ years. You just had to watch the magazines to understand the trajectory. But the "Big 5" and "Life Elevated" campaign threw it into overdrive. It was a predictable outcome that once more people visited the parks that we'd see increased pressure on adjacent public lands. This happens in most Western states with such gorgeous landmarks.

I get a laugh out blaming the Pacific coast states. But at least it's more inclusive now and we're hearing about OR & WA as well. Cracks me up as every state I've ever visited and recreated in has the same problem: a minority of visitors with no ethics. And when we see increased visitation we will see the consequences of those people more often.

I saw it in Colorado in the 90s to aughts. I saw it as soon as I visited Utah 20 years ago. I saw it the Appalachians. I even saw it in Alaska 20 years ago but there were less people so it was more subtle. Where there are people there are slobs who don't care about anyone but themselves.

And anyone pushing a static, unified concept of a state's culture is unsubtly ignoring large swaths of populations within it's borders. I've defended Utah against such attacks from outsiders and I'll do the same against insiders. Every portion of Utah I've lived and worked in has displayed a range that some people love to flatten into an overly simplistic monoculture. What that means: Utah wasn't and isn't some Utopia that's being degraded by "others". It's changing in multiple ways and many of those are coming from pressures from the inside including multi-generation families who never were part of the the particular majority people like to focus on (or mock and scapegoat like we often see from nonresidents). 

That also means that Utah has had residents more than willing to degrade the land and experiences of others. It didn't take some outside force or trend for that to happen. 20 years ago I ran into surface turds everywhere, residents pilfering pottery from public land, idiots shooting at night without backstops, people not dousing their campfires, locals getting drunk and playing music until 3 am in dispersed camps, and RVs sitting empty on sites for weeks until the hunt. 

The scale of it is really the only new thing. It's in our face more and we can't ignore it. Some of it's really ugly. 

And we are likely a decade or more away from seeing peak visitation. We still have a lot of land most people still haven't seen and they will share what they find.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

We bought our property more than 30 years ago with much prompting from my wife who tired of me complaining of over crowed camping in our preferred area. Particularly leading up to "hunting" season. I'll admit it has been nice to not worry about a camp spot unless we hunt a different area.

That being said it has a county/FS road running through it and so I'm aware of traffic and people. For the most part the rhythm hasn't changed but for sure the volume has. Weekends and holidays are busier than week days. And there is no doubt when it gets close to "hunting" season as the traffic picks up and the camps start getting staged. We used to laugh about the critters reading the proclamation to know when the hunt starts, But there is no reason they need to read. The uptick in sheer volume ensures they know it's that time again.

It was interesting that this year the WMA's in the area pretty much closed down dispersed camping by signing most areas as day use only. I can't wait to see how that changes the dynamics for the forest area.

The growth of the ATV/UTV craze and growing popularity of the trail systems in the state definitely leads to more traffic. Being on a main trail for a system leads to a lot of conflict. The trick is to not let it bother you. I tolerate my neighbors in the city because I'm not moving until I die. I have more vehicle traffic in 20 minutes in my neighborhood than a year in the mountains.

The same people who trash the mountains are some of the same people who think nothing of trashing the city.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Regarding land, what you guys are seeing could be signs of a larger trend, not just in Utah but everywhere. I think it's the overall view of the current situation nationally and in the news - and the perspective it produces. Anyway, it's been my view that there has been a mass migration out of the west coast in general, and as a result, population density everwhere else is going up. 

Lots of people want their own piece, for varying reason. Some just want bugout locations. Some just want a cabin (more like mansion) in the hills and get out of the city. Others want to make some attempt at homesteading, which is A LOT more work then most people realize. Others probably all of thee above. Whatever the reason, I think people will pay whatever price they can and not blink about it, because that land is forever. The cash it cost? I'll wager the perception is it's either ultimately worthless, or just transitory. Think hard assets, then factor in inflation, recession, fears of depression, rumblings of the electronic dollar, just all the economic uncertainty in general.

If I had 20 acres, i'd hang on to it and NEVER sell. Id pass it down, because my fear is there will be no other way to acquire property in the future. Id rather leave things better for my kid if I can after I'm gone. Add up everything you might be hearing in the news from, blackrock buying up homes and turning them into single family rentals, to bill gates buying up farmland, etc etc.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Years ago when the deer tags were state wide, we had our little slice of heaven for a camping area. It was the same spot year after year. We knew who would be in the next camp down the road as well. It was just common knowledge that you didn't set camp where you hadn't done before. We and the "Neighbors" had some great Dutch Oven cook-offs, horseshoe tournaments, and just great comradery. I miss those times and the Neighbors. 

Now it seems like a horse race from the gate start to positioning for the win. I understand folks want to get out and enjoy what's out there, but it's just crazy now. I've seen ropes stretched between trees, cheap tents, vehicles, and logs positioned of some "saving" their spot. It's like they are laying claim to a piece of public land. I don't know, I guess I should just be happy we still have the opportunity for dispersed camping.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Regarding land, what you guys are seeing could be signs of a larger trend, not just in Utah but everywhere. I think it's the overall view of the current situation nationally and in the news - and the perspective it produces. Anyway, it's been my view that there has been a mass migration out of the west coast in general, and as a result, population density everwhere else is going up.
> 
> Lots of people want their own piece, for varying reason. Some just want bugout locations. Some just want a cabin (more like mansion) in the hills and get out of the city. Others want to make some attempt at homesteading, which is A LOT more work then most people realize. Others probably all of thee above. Whatever the reason, I think people will pay whatever price they can and not blink about it, because that land is forever. The cash it cost? I'll wager the perception is it's either ultimately worthless, or just transitory. Think hard assets, then factor in inflation, recession, fears of depression, rumblings of the electronic dollar, just all the economic uncertainty in general.
> 
> If I had 20 acres, i'd hang on to it and NEVER sell. Id pass it down, because my fear is there will be no other way to acquire property in the future. Id rather leave things better for my kid if I can after I'm gone. Add up everything you might be hearing in the news from, blackrock buying up homes and turning them into single family rentals, to bill gates buying up farmland, etc etc.


My Dad told me at one time in my young life, "Buy all the land you can, they aint making anymore". So when I found some property that was worth something to me, I'd try and buy it. 

Fast forward to a few years ago. I asked the kids if they wanted some of the property I had. They said no. They said they wouldn't do anything with it and likely sell it to save paying property tax. It's sold to strangers that wanted it and I have a small addition to the retirement plan. He!!, come to think of it, the kids will get the land in currency form now if I don't spend it all.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

I guess it depends on the amount of land and how much its valued. Personally, id rather pay only property taxes instead of rent or a mortgage. (I couldn't even afford to buy my own house in todays market. sheeessshh...) No matter what your doing, your going to pay something. One time my dad sold me a truck for a dollar for what I think is obvious reasons. Not sure if one could get away with that with land, but it's a thought in terms of passing things down.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

middlefork said:


> We bought our property more than 30 years ago with much prompting from my wife who tired of me complaining of over crowed camping in our preferred area. Particularly leading up to "hunting" season. I'll admit it has been nice to not worry about a camp spot unless we hunt a different area.


A couple thoughts:

First of all anyone suggesting this idea of overcrowding trailers and setting up in advance to reserve their spot is a new problem, then I have to wonder where they’ve been. It certainly isn’t out in the woods the last 20 years before hunting season. As middlefork mentions- he did something about being bothered by it 30 years ago! Trailers filling every open spot the week(s) before the hunts is certainly not a covid consequence. My brother’s Wasatch elk hunt in 2012 made this reality very clear to us.

Second: A couple old dudes pontificating about younger people not putting any thought for the future or their credit when they have ZERO clue what they are talking about seems like a right of passage. Every generation thinks they were better and smart than the ones that follow. Goodness, boomers. Settled down! So what if someone doesn’t want to wait until they’re 65 years old to start enjoying the fruits of their labors? Are we really going to make it a negative that someone has been successful and can afford expensive things?


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Vanilla, The age of the people that I saw with the "expensive things", such as the 80K + trailers and trucks, were not in the retirement age. They were half that age. Either they are IT folks, Realtors, Finance folk or whatever, where they have made a great life and economic decisions to be where they are, or, they are in debt to the max. 
I did see one camp that a dude in his 20's made a frame system for the bed of his truck and had a tarp stretched over it for a shelter. That was great to see.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I know they were not retirement age. That is my entire point. You and Critter need to go get a retirement room to talk about how irresponsible all these non-retirees are for actually enjoying life before they retire.

I tip my hat to anyone that can do it. Not all of us can. But I'm sure not going to sit and yell at kids on my front lawn because some people did things that I wasn't able to do. Whether they are those that made great financial decisions or they are in debt to the max...why do you care? And you certainly won't be able to know, so you shouldn't assume either way, like was done above. ("you" is not just you, taxidermist) 

I hope you get a great bear.


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## tmitty (Jun 22, 2020)

taxidermist said:


> We knew who would be in the next camp down the road as well. It was just common knowledge that *you didn't set camp where you hadn't done before*. ...
> 
> Now it seems like a horse race from the gate start to positioning for the win. I understand folks want to get out and enjoy what's out there, but it's just crazy now. I've seen ropes stretched between trees, cheap tents, vehicles, and logs positioned of some "saving" their spot. *It's like they are laying claim to a piece of public land*.


I just felt the need to point out the irony in those two statements... 

I get frustrated by posts like these that seem to pop up quite often on this forum. Just because we have been in this state for a few generations, or we moved here before others, we think we have more of a right to enjoy the outdoors in the way that we prefer? Of course we should expect others to respect the land and the resources, but we can't expect them to stay off of the public land that we have claimed as our annual deer camp.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have no problem with people enjoying what they have as long as they do it responsible. Anytime these folks don't make their payments just increases the cost to us that do not to mention wondering what they plan on doing once they do reach retirement age. Most don't care or some of the ones that I talked to just say that they'll go on the government hand outs. With more and more companies that did offer a retirement plan shutting those plans down and telling their employees that their retirement is up to them makes me wonder just where we will be in 20 or 30 years down the road. 

On the annual deer camps, it has always been first come first served in the areas that I hunted in the 60's and 70's up until now. I know that we have made more than one set of hunters by taking "their" spots before they pulled in expecting it to be vacant. But that is where we are now seeing hunters homesteading their spots in one way or another until after the hunts. Right now I would wager that I could head up into quite a few spots and find camp trailers that will be sitting until after opening weekend of the deer hunt. I also found that it doesn't do much good reporting them. The responsible agency will either just blow you off or do very little about it. There is a spot out on the Southwest Desert where I found 6 or 7 trailer in a circle around a fire pit that they had made out of cinder blocks. When I reported it the enforcement officer of the BLM just said that I must be mistaken about them being on public land since there was private in the area. This was after I gave her the location off of my GPS and told her that according to the BLM maps the closest private was a couple of miles away. By the way. That fire pit is still there along with the trailers.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Last weekend I notched out a site for a 1 man tent where i've been hammock camping for the last two or three years. Off the beaten path, away from the road, where few people go, have to pack in to get to it. I suspect i'll be making more such sites later in the other two units I frequent. If you want to be left the hell alone, seems to be the way to go.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Critter said:


> I have no problem with people enjoying what they have as long as they do it responsible. Anytime these folks don't make their payments just increases the cost to us that do not to mention wondering what they plan on doing once they do reach retirement age. Most don't care or some of the ones that I talked to just say that they'll go on the government hand outs. With more and more companies that did offer a retirement plan shutting those plans down and telling their employees that their retirement is up to them makes me wonder just where we will be in 20 or 30 years down the road.
> 
> On the annual deer camps, it has always been first come first served in the areas that I hunted in the 60's and 70's up until now. I know that we have made more than one set of hunters by taking "their" spots before they pulled in expecting it to be vacant. But that is where we are now seeing hunters homesteading their spots in one way or another until after the hunts. Right now I would wager that I could head up into quite a few spots and find camp trailers that will be sitting until after opening weekend of the deer hunt. I also found that it doesn't do much good reporting them. The responsible agency will either just blow you off or do very little about it. There is a spot out on the Southwest Desert where I found 6 or 7 trailer in a circle around a fire pit that they had made out of cinder blocks. When I reported it the enforcement officer of the BLM just said that I must be mistaken about them being on public land since there was private in the area. This was after I gave her the location off of my GPS and told her that according to the BLM maps the closest private was a couple of miles away. By the way. That fire pit is still there along with the trailers.


When I worked for the USFS almost 2 decades ago that problem already existed. Trailers started showing up more than a month in advance. It may have increased in scale but it's not remotely new.

Enforcement isn't easy in Utah where federal agencies are often hated by local communities. Add in small town familiarity with people and you are often talking about an escalation that doesn't lead to any real consequence for the offender. And then add in the years of threats personnel have received and you can start to understand the lose/lose scenario faced by the agencies. 

I'm grateful I left before people started flashing assault weapons at USFS employees down in this area. At the time I'd regularly report illegal behavior to the managers but it only took one season to understand the knife's edge enforcement operates on.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

backcountry said:


> Enforcement isn't easy in Utah where federal agencies are often hated by local communities. Add in small town familiarity with people and you are often talking about an escalation that doesn't lead to any real consequence for the offender. And then add in the years of threats personnel have received and you can start to understand the lose/lose scenario faced by the agencies.


But wait, I thought it was only the eeevil, slimebag liburl Californians and Nevadans that are causing all the problems. 

The above quote is spot on.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Catherder said:


> But wait, I thought it was only the eeevil, slimebag liburl Californians and Nevadans that are causing all the problems.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

tmitty, I guess you cant comprehend what I wrote? Read it again, then read your comment. I think you will see where I'm going.

As to the "policing" of the woods....Why have any rules/regulations if the "tree cop" wont enforce the violation? If the sign says "16 day stay limit" and the camp is still there come day 18 days, why isn't the sworn officer doing his job? Maybe they need to grow a set and do the job I and every tax payer is paying them to do. Frustrating to think the Gov. isn't taking care of these types of violations!


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Lone_Hunter said:


> View attachment 153063


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> As to the "policing" of the woods....Why have any rules/regulations if the "tree cop" wont enforce the violation?


If I videoed every stupid effing thing i've seen in the last couple years....... Saw this one as I was driving by leaving a plume of smoke. 








One reason I hate people







www.bitchute.com





Saw another camp spot that was tagged out nines with spray cans and graffitti. Type of urban **** you see in "da hood".




jewbacca said:


>


I never advocated to "Love one another and embrace diversity". I hate people in general, and diversity is NOT a strength. But yes, keep the scumbags out of my neighborhood.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Lone_Hunter said:


> If I videoed every stupid effing thing i've seen in the last couple years....... Saw this one as I was driving by leaving a plume of smoke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That still smoldering fire has been happening as long as I have been alive. It is also a main reason that I pack a shovel with me in my truck and ATV. That is except for one day when I took a quick drive to test out a new 22 that I had bought. I came upon a 20" log that was glowing like a blast furnace with the wind blowing. I didn't dare leave it since I could at least stomp on the embers that were coming off of it before they started a brush fire. I couldn't kick any dirt on it because of the hard ground, I just figured that I was in one of those kind of pickles. Finally the wind died down and I made a maid dash to the fire station 5 miles away then led them back to it. 

This was the days before cell phones were common. 

But I have also seen BLM and US Forest Service folks ticket hunters for leaving their camps and letting the camp fire smolder or even burn.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Critter said:


> That still smoldering fire has been happening as long as I have been alive
> ...
> But I have also seen BLM and US Forest Service folks ticket hunters for leaving their camps and letting the camp fire smolder or even burn.


I don't doubt it. Idiots live everywhere, it's just that for me, this was just one more log on the metaphorical fire. With each passing weekend, I see more trash, used toilet paper, abandoned tents and awnings that have been out for months, graffiti, loud music, smoldering camp fires, you freaking name it I've seen A LOT of it..... With each passing weekend, I'm turning more and more into that grumpy old man.

It is not lost on me that 3 years ago, little to none of what I'm seeing presently, existed.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

Lone_Hunter said:


> I never advocated to "Love one another and embrace diversity". I hate people in general, and diversity is NOT a strength. But yes, keep the scumbags out of my neighborhood.


I didn't make the cartoon but feel it captures the energy of this post. 

I agree there are idiots everywhere outdoors, but I find it a little ridiculous to blame it on outsiders. The majority of bad behavior I see appears to be home grown.

Tangentially, I hope everyone on this forum will look at Landgrab Mike Lee and realize there are forces within the state wanting to limit land access. I know this has come up on the forum before, but it's a really important issue, and relevant to the topic at hand. Guess what happens when you try to cram an increasing population onto shrinking public space?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I can see the pressure on central and southern Utah being caused by being sandwiched between the biggest population area of Salt Lake and Utah county on the north and the St George /Las Vegas/LA population to the south for sure. And Colorado influences a lot of visitation in the Moab and Canyon lands vicinity.

After all how many people from Idaho or Wyoming recreate in wildland Utah? Shopping being the big attraction in the big city.

But as strange as it sounds I've seen extensive enforcement in Northern Utah. At least a lot more than during my southern travels.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm sorry to inform you people that think the locals are the major part of the problem. 
That is bullsheet. 
I have been running around in these hills for 45 years. I see a WHOLE LOT more of the stuff being described in this post than I ever have the last few years. It has gotten beyond the joke. You can blast me all you want. I have seen and watched the way it has changed. 
Sure there is some local slobs. Always ways, and always will be. That's just people and how they are. 
It has become much more of a problem. 
It's a tough problem to solve.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I have bitched and moaned as loudly as anybody here about my beloved outdoor activities being ruined by invaders, but now I'm trying to learn to accept it for what it is. What other choice do I have? Give up on the outdoors entirely? Be pi$$ed off and fuming about everything from here on out? 

I feel like our best option is to make the best of it. Learn to adapt, fix what we can, learn to deal with what we can't fix. Now everyone please remind me that I said this here in a week or so, when I'm bitching about idiots in the woods.


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

2full said:


> I'm sorry to inform you people that think the locals are the major part of the problem.
> That is bullsheet.
> I have been running around in these hills for 45 years. I see a WHOLE LOT more of the stuff being described in this post than I ever have the last few years. It has gotten beyond the joke. You can blast me all you want. I have seen and watched the way it has changed.
> Sure there is some local slobs. Always ways, and always will be. That's just people and how they are.
> ...


Simply from the sheer number of locals in the outdoors, the odds of them not being "the problem" are slim.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

jewbacca said:


> Simply from the sheer number of locals in the outdoors, the odds of them not being "the problem" are slim.


Sorry to inform you......
The locals playing in the outdoors in our area are waayyy outnumbered. Like I mentioned earlier, 
80% if the plates on the mountain are Nevada.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

I haven't been roaming the mountains as long as some here have, but I do roam them OFTEN. Probably three weekends every month for at least 9 sometimes 10 months out of the year, and depending on which tags i've got, sometimes longer. Last year, i did 10 days on deer muzzy on top of a multiseason tag (I suck), this year, i'll have a late season cow tag, on top of another multi season tag. Point is, im out often enough to see the mountains change by the week, and by the season. I know approximately when the sheep leave some areas, when the thermals shift in others. I've seen the very first fall leaves, when the grass starts drying in some areas. Nothing on the mountain stays the same for long.

I can remember what things were like before OnX became mainstream, and I can remember when i first started noticing hunters that were newer then myself. Again, I haven't been at this for years like some folks, but when i "get into" something, I dive head first and go balls to the wall. I've been making up for lost time now that I've found my nitch, and I'm not getting any younger. Every season has become important to me.

So when things happen or change, I notice. For the most part, things were normal in 2018. Same can roughly be said for 2019. Sure there was a slight uptick in the number of hunters during that time period, but the mountains weren't trashed. However, 2020 was a huge upset. Nothings been the same since. How compacted some roads are now, says ALOT. Used to get that fine dust in some areas, now, it's like dirt pavement.

Before 2020, the mountains weren't trashed like they are now, you could still find a camp site, not much was to be found in trash, you never found used TP, and the fella before you would often leave split wood stacked up neatly for the next guy.

It sure ain't like that now. Most people who are new to the mountains, or the state, you can tell if you know what to look for, and there's ALOT of new people.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Sometimes you just want some piece and quiet and listen to the forest. But!

Then there's the guy that runs his generator at all hours.

The guy flying his drone. Or drones.

The guy that turns his kids loose on ATV's. Kicking up dust and causing a racket. Again at all hours. 

Good times in Utah!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

2full said:


> Sorry to inform you......
> The locals playing in the outdoors in our area are waayyy outnumbered. Like I mentioned earlier,
> 80% if the plates on the mountain are Nevada.


Weekends from Memorial Day to Labor Day; Holidays? Most definitely.

Weekdays during the summer and then the rest of the year it's less tourist and more locals.

And it's always been UT plates when I see someone cutting across the meadows at Midway. It's 85% or more UT plates in late August that I see dropping off trailers a month early. It's UT plates I see dumping trash into an overfilled dumpster at Panguitch only to watch most of it blow towards the lake. Its UT plates I see mudding up our dirt roads in the spring before they are dry enough to drive on. I could go on. I mean the biggest impact I've ever seen was a local family's elk camp that involved rerouting a spring with pipe, permanent structures and even stashed metal box springs on USFS land. I've known two locals whose families illegally built structures on USFS land.

Ultimately it's just a problem of people. The more people visit the outdoors the more of the selfish slobs we'll see. 

And we all contribute in some way. How many of us have introduced people to camping, fishing, hunting, ATVing? How many of us have or will teach our kids? The state with the highest birth rate in the nation is going to inevitably see more people on public lands in it's borders. I'd wager few of us haven't contributed to the crowding. 

I stopped sending people to my favorite places but I still will go with the people I trust. Sharing those places and experiences can be a gift for everyone involved. But it leads to more people. How many of the people we take end up sharing it with others? 

And while the scale is new the problem isn't. My dad talks about losing fishing friends in the 60-70s because he wouldn't allow them to sink empty soda or beer cans in the lake. CO and UT both have been doing "designated dispersed" campsites for decades because recreationists we're tearing up sensitive habitat. 

This isn't really new and blaming outsiders doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.


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## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

backcountry said:


> Weekends from Memorial Day to Labor Day; Holidays? Most definitely.
> 
> Weekdays during the summer and then the rest of the year it's less tourist and more locals.
> 
> ...


I don't have any skin in this game, not from your area. But this doesn't quite add up?

"*Weekends from Memorial Day to Labor Day; Holidays? Most definitely.

Weekdays during the summer* and then the rest of the year it's less tourist and more locals"

Isn't summer from Memorial to Labor day?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Weekends vs Weekdays


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## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

“People are ruining the culture of Utah…….”

🤣The INTERNET did that!🤣


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

This was happening way before the internet

Sent from my SM-A426U using Tapatalk


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## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

Overpopulation is a Scam at the highest. Government bought the farm by screwing every farmer over through weather modification since 1891. Too much open land while most people are crammed in cities…. Government has people by the baalz when it comes to ideological issues that they agree with which are total fallacies inside and out.

Bad Manners, Bad Ethics, Bad Attitudes have always been around. We have to share the mountains with the rest of us peasants.

When you see a bunch of people means don’t hunt there. When you see more sign of human than of game then Take A Hike and get out further in the field. The deeper into the habitat you go you won’t find a majority of the non hunters.

“Too many people” ok, then you be the one less out there……. Retire and enjoy telling the hunting stories from your rocking chair while allowing newer generation to hunt……. 🥱

People are too willing to show off on social media or Up the next guys trophy instead of having common decency in the hunting community 🤷🏼‍♂️


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

The "tourists" aren't just memorial day to labor Day anymore. And a lot of them aren't just weekends as well. During the pandemic freak out, a lot of them were 24/7 up on the forest. I talked to some of them in my store before I retired. 
I said in my one post that some locals are part of the problem as well. No question about that. I've met a few and had words with a few of them. 
No matter who is at fault, it has gotten to be a real issue for everyone trying to get back to nature these days.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Couldn't we just have an Avatar type of camping thing? Find the mother tree and be happy until someone try's to kill it off? Wait...... That's what's happening now.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Goodness…


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## BearLakeFishGuy (Apr 15, 2013)

taxidermist said:


> e to 40K. If I had that kind of money, I'd be investing in my retirement so I could enjoy the golden years.


Taxidermist.....you think too logically! Those people are driving $100K trucks, $40K side-by-sides, and $80K fancy trailers don't care about retirement. They are technically retired already, and are in debt up to their eyeballs. They also probably live in 4,000 sq ft+ home with a garage that rivals an aircraft hangar for all their toys. Deep down, they are hoping they die young so the their kids can deal with the debt after they are gone and are living it up now. Its the new American way, dontchaknow?


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I sure hope your wrong


BearLakeFishGuy said:


> Taxidermist.....you think too logically! Those people are driving $100K trucks, $40K side-by-sides, and $80K fancy trailers don't care about retirement. They are technically retired already, and are in debt up to their eyeballs. They also probably live in 4,000 sq ft+ home with a garage that rivals an aircraft hangar for all their toys. Deep down, they are hoping they die young so the their kids can deal with the debt after they are gone and are living it up now. Its the new American way, dontchaknow?


I would hope that your evaluation of the reasoning for such expensive items is not accurate.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I feel like our best option is to make the best of it. Learn to adapt, fix what we can, learn to deal with what we can't fix.


Summer, early fall..... hammock camping is the way to go. Sleep on the side of the mountain. Nobody bothers you there.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

taxidermist said:


> I sure hope your wrong
> 
> I would hope that your evaluation of the reasoning for such expensive items is not accurate.


Yeah, that's a bleak take on people.

Only people I know who have said similar things were single people with no kids, ie no one else responsible to clean up any financial mess. Once they die creditors and the state can fight for anything of value. 

Not to mention kids don't inherit debt, only an estate does. We just closed a similar estate and the "only" damage is waiting out creditors to have their chance to pick it clean. Though the actual worst was dealing with the IRS backlog that meant 2+ years to correct a flawed audit and who knows how long before we get the refund check.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

backcountry said:


> Yeah, that's a bleak take on people.
> 
> Only people I know who have said similar things were single people with no kids, ie no one else responsible to clean up any financial mess. Once they die creditors and the state can fight for anything of value.
> 
> Not to mention kids don't inherit debt, only an estate does. We just closed a similar estate and the "only" damage is waiting out creditors to have their chance to pick it clean. Though the actual worst was dealing with the IRS backlog that meant 2+ years to correct a flawed audit and who knows how long before we get the refund check.


I was glad to see that my parents had their finances in order long before they left this world! They worked hard to be debt free, owing no one nothing and titles to all vehicles. Absolutely great role models how to live within your means. 

I'm sure credit card debt has increased with the economic unsurety over the past two years. I read an article a while back that mentioned nearly 80% of the population of the ages 20-40 don't have a savings account greater than 4K. Very sad to hear that one.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> I'm sure credit card debt has increased with the economic unsurety over the past two years. I read an article a while back that mentioned nearly 80% of the population of the ages 20-40 don't have a savings account greater than 4K. Very sad to hear that one.


The other day my wife was commenting about wanting a matching bedroom set, and how maybe I should upgrade my office desk, which is paired with one of those standard fake wooden folding office tables to make an L. I told her, the desk works, no need to replace it. Don't care if it was some desk left behind that nobody wanted in that duplex we rented over a decade ago. 

Now the matching bedroom set is another matter. I'll go along with it cause we can probably afford it. She has something of a point as a number of our furniture pieces can date back to those college dumpster dives. Her nightstand she's been using since college. I've some bookshelves i made out of "scrap material" back in 96 that I'm still using in the basement. (Had I known i'd be using them this long, id have done a better job on them). We're both in our late 40's.

The punchline though is, wife saying "You know most people have a matching set by their 30's". To which I replied, "Yeah, but we don't have the debt most people have either." Neither one of us have any revolving debt. Credit card gets used as a debit card, and is paid off as quickly as it's charged. Gotta play the game if you want to build credit. We own 2 out of 3 of our vehicles. The one with a lein, we could pay it off right out of savings today if we wanted to.

I think this is how your supposed to keep your finances, offhand I don't think many do. Live under the weight of credit card debt long enough, and get out of it - its like a huge weight is lifted and sense of freedom. Once you get that zero debt, you hate seeing a charge on a credit card account for very long and pay it off quickly to maintain that zero debt. It's something to strive for, keep, and maintain.


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