# Broken Arrow



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Ok, so I bought my first bow on Friday and spent a good deal of time shooting in the backyard this weekend. I started the weekend with 6 arrows (Cabela's Extreme Stalker) and 100gr. field tips.

I have now put 4 arrows out of commission. 2 by missing and hitting my rock wall, two more by missing and going through the vinyl fence. 

At this rate, I will be out of arrows by the end of the day on Tuesday. I am still trying to wrap my head around all the Spine, Gr. weights, shaft construction, nocks, inserts, vanes, etc.... so I don't feel like I can just run out and get any arrow I want and I don't really want to drive to Lehi every time I need arrows.

So, does anyone here have a good recommendation on where I can get more arrows and preferably some good education on the subject so I can make heads or tails of it all? 

Also, I obviously need a backstop. What is everyone using? I saw the horse stall mat ones on YouTube and am leaning that way, anyone ever actually used one of those and are the arrows as hard to remove as I fear they'll be?

Thanks for any info you seasoned archers can provide. I want to enjoy this sport and look forward to becoming quite skilled with the bow but at $10-15 per shot I may not be able to practice like I was hoping.


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## Baron83 (May 24, 2016)

Hay bails work good for back stops if you can find them. Did you have your bow setup and tuned when you bought it?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Baron83 said:


> Hay bails work good for back stops if you can find them. Did you have your bow setup and tuned when you bought it?


Straw bails, hay is getting way too expensive. You should be able to find straw bails at any garden center. Get a minimum of 3, 4 would be best. Then you just need a couple of 2x4's to hold them in position after you stack them.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

No, for a backstop, head over to your closest Cal-Ranch and buy a "horse stall mat". 

Mats are are HEAVY 3/4" thick rubber and come in 4ft x 6ft size. I drilled and bolted the long edge to a 2x4 and then bolted the 2x4 to my fence. This gives a me about 6" inches of movement from the mat to the fence. You want it to have room to "give" a bit as it is absorbing energy from the arrow.

I find a solid center hit from an arrow only penetrates about 3" through the mat at most. Most hits are much less. 

I think I paid around $30 for my mat and it will last for many many years vs a hay bale that you can shoot the center out of in an afternoon.


-DallanC


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Critter said:


> Straw bails, hay is getting way too expensive. You should be able to find straw bails at any garden center. Get a minimum of 3, 4 would be best. Then you just need a couple of 2x4's to hold them in position after you stack them.


I have pretty easy access to hay and straw (family farmers) but really don't want the mess. What the heck am I going to do with these bales once they get wet, moldy and start to deteriorate? If that is the best option I will do it though. The arrows don't go all the way through do they?



DallanC said:


> No, for a backstop, head over to your closest Cal-Ranch and buy a "horse stall mat".
> 
> Mats are are HEAVY 3/4" thick rubber and come in 4ft x 6ft size. I drilled and bolted the long edge to a 2x4 and then bolted the 2x4 to my fence. This gives a me about 6" inches of movement from the mat to the fence. You want it to have room to "give" a bit as it is absorbing energy from the arrow.
> 
> ...


The stall mat idea is the one I'm leaning towards as well. I've read horror stories about trying to get the arrows back out though. I saw online someone was getting about 10" of penetration on theirs so I was planning on no less than 1' of clearance on the back side but actually maybe more since the mat will give a few inches upon impact. I've also read they are very heavy (+/- 100lbs.)...ever tried the 1/2" thick version instead of the 3/4" version? Might be easier to pull the arrows back out but may not stop the arrow as effectively.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I'll second the horse stall mat.

You didn't say how far you were shooting but try 10 yards or so at first until you get use to the process and then work back.

It also never hurts to get some good instructions from somebody that knows about form. Helps eliminate bad habits people pick up on their own.

Have fun it is a great journey.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

KineKilla said:


> The stall mat idea is the one I'm leaning towards as well. I've read horror stories about trying to get the arrows back out though. I saw online someone was getting about 10" of penetration on theirs so I was planning on no less than 1' of clearance on the back side but actually maybe more since the mat will give a few inches upon impact.


Well in our case we shoot at hanging bags and the mat is only there to stop a miss. I dont care if it takes alot of effort to retrieve an arrow as long as it gets stopped quickly in the first place. Pro tip- wrap the arrow with some inner tube rubber and grip the tube to help pull on the arrow, it makes it tremendously easy to pull out.

But you can space outward from the fence if you screw the mat to a 2x4 like I did. Worse case you could make a stand to hang the mat on when you goto shoot. Where I have my mat attached to the fence, the fence portion is setback from the post by 2.5" and the mat spaces from the front of the post by another 1.75" so I think I have about 4ish inches of clearance. I've yet to touch the back fence with an arrow from my 60lb bow... My boy bounces arrows from his 40lb bow off the mat (they dont even stick).

If you are shooting a 80lb bow, well you probably will put an arrow through about anything... I personally like to turn down a bow to lower poundage during the summer to work on form and easy shooting. As muscles build up I add a little more poundage over time.



> I've also read they are very heavy (+/- 100lbs.)


Sounds about right, I know there is no way I could hang it myself. Took all 3 of us to get it mounted properly. Also if you buy one get it EARLY in the morning or LATE in the evening because Cal-Ranch and other stores keep them outside and they get BLISTERINGLY HOT!!! They are awkward as heck to lift and work with too.



> ...ever tried the 1/2" thick version instead of the 3/4" version? Might be easier to pull the arrows back out but may not stop the arrow as effectively.


Dont skimp, the goal here is to stop a wayward arrow. This isnt target backing, its a backstop.

-DallanC


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

middlefork said:


> I'll second the horse stall mat.
> 
> You didn't say how far you were shooting but try 10 yards or so at first until you get use to the process and then work back.
> 
> ...


I was shooting around 10yds or so and have ranges measured out to 20 and 30 in one section of the yard. 20 is where I was when I started pulling shots to the side...not all shots but a few when my form slipped.

Eventually I'll have 45-50yd shots available in my yard but not until I've got this thing down to a science...and maybe never if I have to move a heavy backstop around or if it feels unsafe to shoot that far.

Fortunately there is an empty 10acre lot behind my house so I'm not too worried shooting that direction


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Are you trying to sight it in? Honestly you can site out to 60 yards - being 6 yards from the target or less and be on paper. What target are you using? Is the draw too heavy for you? Fixed pin site?


At 20 yards or under you should be connecting with the target. Did you buy the bow at a shop? I am curious if your arrows are all cut to length and are the right spine for you. Could be a factor if you are holding still and having major fliers.

I think solving your shot issue could be done fairly quick, rather than putting a ton into your arrow-through-the-fence issue lol.. The mat/backstop should be rarely hit.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

KineKilla said:


> I have pretty easy access to hay and straw (family farmers) but really don't want the mess. What the heck am I going to do with these bales once they get wet, moldy and start to deteriorate? If that is the best option I will do it though. The arrows don't go all the way through do they?


Do you have a compost pile or a garden? That is where I put my straw when I am finished with it or it starts to break down.

I have never had a arrow go completely through a bale of straw. I have had them buried up to the fletching when I have been shooting broad heads where you needed to pull them out from the other side.

I have been shooting a 60 lb bow with 31" arrosw.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

KineKilla said:


> I have now put 4 arrows out of commission. 2 by missing and hitting my rock wall, two more by missing and going through the vinyl fence...
> 
> At this rate, I will be out of arrows by the end of the day on Tuesday...
> 
> Thanks for any info you seasoned archers can provide. I want to enjoy this sport and look forward to becoming quite skilled with the bow but at $10-15 per shot I may not be able to practice like I was hoping.


Hey -after 30 some odd years of archery there a still a few wild fliers.

Good idea about the horse mat - my backstop is usually straw bales and then a sheet of 1/2" plywood behind it.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

BTW, "broken arrow" was an absolutely terrible movie. -O,-


-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> BTW, "broken arrow" was an absolutely terrible movie. -O,-
> 
> -DallanC


It all depends on which one you are talking about. Every time that I see that it is on TV I have to look to see which one it is.

Here is the good one.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042286/


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> It all depends on which one you are talking about. Every time that I see that it is on TV I have to look to see which one it is.
> 
> Here is the good one.
> 
> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042286/


Oh yea, thats a good one. this one is the terrible one:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115759/

-DallanC


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

OK, lots of follow up questions to answer:

1) Yes I was trying to sight it in. 3 pin sight, cheap, not very easy to adjust (came with the bow).

2) Arrows were all cut to length and inserts installed by Cabela’s when I bought them (it). They are cut to 28.5” measured from bottom of nock to insert.

3) Was it tuned upon purchase? Kind of. I’ve had to tweak the rest to get the arrow level with the string and to get it straight on the rest (arrow was pointing slightly right). I’m pretty sure it’s all square now, but I’m no pro. In their defense, I was in a hurry as I had somewhere to be so I may not have given them all the time needed to get it set just right.

4) I’m currently only pulling 40+ draw weight and have a 28.5” draw. Wanted to start with a low weight until I work the right muscle groups and develop some proficiency. I will be buying a bow scale this week.

5) I am shooting at a 18” square block target from 20 yds primarily. I hit center most of the time but watching the level, centering the pin, holding in the same anchor point (s) and making sure my arm isn’t in the way is a lot all at once so I occasionally pull a shot to the side.

They were shooting right (first two broken arrows) then I centered the rest and now they’re better but the next two misses were to the left.

6) My target is at about waist height at 20 yds and mid-chest at 30. I chose to use a sloped section of lawn so I wasn’t aiming down at the target all the time.

7) Broken Arrow wasn’t that bad a movie (I was only 16 when it came out), and it works great as a thread title.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Those aren't bad groups so you are starting out ok.
I'm kind of a quality over quantity shooter so when I find myself getting a little shaky or rushing the shot I take a break. Some days I'll only shoot 6-9 arrows trying to make sure I am concentrating on all the steps.

Get a good backstop up so you don't worry about missing the target. It is pretty easy to get a little target panic going if you are losing too many arrows.

The good thing is with good practice the misses get fewer and fewer. Like HDE said it happens to everybody. Pretty soon you will be complaining that you keep breaking arrows shooting at the same spot 8) and have to start shooting one arrow at a spot.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I check with the local gravel company and use pieces of used conveyor belt. Similar material as Horse trailer mats, not as big but cheaper.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

i also thought you lost a nuke. glad you didn't.

archerytalk is a good place for info but you have to wade thru some crap to get there.

good target to build:
https://www.elk101.com/2017/06/build-your-own-diy-archery-target/

don't buy arrows for the lbs you're shooting now. look on camofire, eders.com or bowhunting outlet for good deals on the spine you'll need when you're up to 60 lbs or wherever you want to end up. you really can tune out issues of having too stiff of an arrow pretty easy.

don't worry so much about tuning right now. your tune will change with all the changes you will be making and you'll chase your tail with an improper bow grip/form. focus on form and shooting a blank target without "aiming". let the pin float and fire the arrow using your preferred method.

if you are shooting, don't try to group up close. shoot spots (one arrow per dot). up close you can damage arrows and nocks, which can later damage you and or your bow.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

APD said:


> i also thought you lost a nuke. glad you didn't.
> 
> archerytalk is a good place for info but you have to wade thru some crap to get there.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. Right now Easton and Gold Tip show me at a 400 spine. I think the ones they sold me at Cabela's are 500. I'm hoping to get to 60lbs. eventually and see no reason to go any higher.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

KineKilla said:


> Thanks for the advice. Right now Easton and Gold Tip show me at a 400 spine. I think the ones they sold me at Cabela's are 500. I'm hoping to get to 60lbs. eventually and see no reason to go any higher.


if you sign up for a pro account on eders the GT hunter shafts are $54 a dozen. 340 spine should work fine for your end goal and you will progress up quickly. you can come over and use my jig if you want to try building your own arrows. it takes about 2-3 minutes per arrow to wrap and install vanes with the ez fletch.

btw, for local ranges with big targets:

the front archery has 6x6 targets out to 100 yards for $7 a shoot and lee kay has ~4x4 carpet bales out to 80 yards for $5 a shoot.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks for the offer, I’d like to build my own arrows eventually. I look at it much like my reloading for rifles....better done in house.

I found a great way to not break arrows tonight though. One shot and the peep sight fell out of the string!

No shooting = no broken arrows!


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

KineKilla said:


> One shot and the peep sight fell out of the string!


you can lose an eye that way. did the shop not tie in your peep?

it's simple and only takes 60 seconds. i use a clove hitch around the barrel so i can still adjust it up and down a little for the first few shots.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

APD said:


> you can lose an eye that way. did the shop not tie in your peep?
> 
> it's simple and only takes 60 seconds. i use a clove hitch around the barrel so i can still adjust it up and down a little for the first few shots.


Yeah it was tied in but apparently not correctly. When they first put it in (in store) I took one shot and it popped out. So he went back and tied it in again..."It won't come out again" well, he was right for the first 15-20 arrows or so but here it is dangling from the small piece of rubber tubing.

I'll be taking the whole bow in to an actual archery shop this afternoon to see if I can't get it gone through correctly.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

KineKilla said:


> I'll be taking the whole bow in to an actual archery shop this afternoon to see if I can't get it gone through correctly.


Based on some of the information - this sounds like a great plan. That peep shouldn't move, and they should be able to get your rest squared up.

What length are your arrows cut to? I have some 400 spine gold tips around, I shoot a 340 so I don't use em. A stiffer spine, imo, help a lot. You will really notice when you move up in draw weight.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

RandomElk16 said:


> Based on some of the information - this sounds like a great plan. That peep shouldn't move, and they should be able to get your rest squared up.
> 
> What length are your arrows cut to? I have some 400 spine gold tips around, I shoot a 340 so I don't use em. A stiffer spine, imo, help a lot. You will really notice when you move up in draw weight.


The current arrows they set me up with are cut to 28.5" which is the same as my draw length. I imagine for hunting with broadheads I'll want them a little longer so they clear the riser fully and stay away from my hand.

Gold Tip and Easton both show me using a 400 spine as of now, I haven't looked to see what they show when/if I get up to the 60lb draw I'm hoping for.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

KineKilla said:


> The current arrows they set me up with are cut to 28.5" which is the same as my draw length. I imagine for hunting with broadheads I'll want them a little longer so they clear the riser fully and stay away from my hand.
> 
> Gold Tip and Easton both show me using a 400 spine as of now, I haven't looked to see what they show when/if I get up to the 60lb draw I'm hoping for.


100g tip, you would be between a 400 and a 340. I personally prefer stiff.

I will see the length on those and let you know if they would work for ya in the meantime!


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

You are correct!

You got me wondering so I went in and checked. Once I get to around 60lb the spine range changes to the 340 or stiffer. I'm still trying to fully comprehend what the advantages or disadvantages are to stiff vs. not. 

For now, I'm fine shooting pretty much whatever (as long as it's safe) because I'm really just trying to build muscle memory and proper form. My bow will be going in to Humphries Archery today to get straightened out. I just don't trust the staff at the sporting goods stores anymore.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

KineKilla said:


> You are correct!
> 
> You got me wondering so I went in and checked. Once I get to around 60lb the spine range changes to the 340 or stiffer. I'm still trying to fully comprehend what the advantages or disadvantages are to stiff vs. not.
> 
> For now, I'm fine shooting pretty much whatever (as long as it's safe) because I'm really just trying to build muscle memory and proper form. My bow will be going in to Humphries Archery today to get straightened out. I just don't trust the staff at the sporting goods stores anymore.


Humphries is great.

https://eastonhunting.com/making-sense-of-arrow-spine/

This is a very brief write-up. Basically erratic flight. If it's too soft, it will flap. Think of throwing a pool noodle threw the air lol.

You would be fine with either, but I lean to stiff. My groups got way better when I went from 400 to 340. You will notice going from 500 to 400 for sure!


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Something to keep in mind is that as you increase tip weight, you may need to increase spine selection. I shoot a 50 gr brass insert with a 100 gr tip for 16% FOC and shoot a 330 spine as opposed to a 340.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Dropped it off at Humphries this afternoon. 

They’re a week out on bow work but I am having them give it a full tune and install a peep sight (hopefully the right way) as well as a new QAD hdx arrow rest. Hopefully it comes back better than brand new.

I also saw some lower cost arrows today at Sportsman’s...Vital Impact I believe? Anyone shot these or have any feedback? I’d like to finish my Jedi training using something that hurts less when I miss.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Go with the ICS Beeman Hunters. A fairly quality arrow at a low cost.


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## Baron83 (May 24, 2016)

Vitals aren't bad I used to shoot them when I was starting.


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

Try stopping in at a bow range. I used to shoot at Salt Lake Archery when I could sneak in some me time. It’s nice having lots more area to pull errant shots out of and there are often times helpful people around to learn from.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

KineKilla said:


> Dropped it off at Humphries this afternoon.
> 
> They're a week out on bow work but I am having them give it a full tune and install a peep sight (hopefully the right way) as well as a new QAD hdx arrow rest. Hopefully it comes back better than brand new.


that's a good idea. they do good work. have them tune it with whatever arrow you will be using. ideally something stiffer than you have now. turning up the lbs on a 500 spine arrow can be problematic.

after your tune, it can give you confidence to work on form because it is usually the indian and not the bow causing the problems.

don't mess with the humphries tune until you have repeatable form. but do shoot it at the shop thru paper before you leave with it. look for a repeatable tear thru the paper. grip and face pressure on the string are most common places to create torque.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Best way to develop good form habits now is to have someone watch you and correct when you're starting out. Like many of us, we just started out many, many years ago back in the day with aircraft cables and magnesium riser bows and carried those same "dirty" habits through today - and they are hard to correct once they've settled in.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

https://www.camofire.com/index.php/Deals/10

good deal for some arrows


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Saw those. Unfortunately they’re only available ina 330 and I won’t be up to that draw weight for a while yet.


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