# What do you expect?



## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

The recent discussion regarding antler restrictions seems to indicate that many folks are dissatisfied with their general season deer hunting experience. So my question is...what are your expectations? What scenario would result in you feeling satisfied with your hunting experience? More time in the field? Seeing more deer or more bucks or bigger bucks? Competing with fewer hunters? Less geographic restrictions? Less complicated regulations and application processes?

Please share what would improve your experience. Or if you are satisfied, share why.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

Just let me get a tag and hunt, I'll take care of the rest. Stop micro-managing me and focus on improving the deer herd numbers.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Longfeather said:


> Just let me get a tag and hunt, I'll take care of the rest. Stop micro-managing me and focus on improving the deer herd numbers.


+1

also let us find out sooner on if we draw a tag or not. so we can set V time and get plans set for the hunts.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

I still don't undestand why it takes all spring to do a draw. Yeah I have heard we need the numbers on population, yet those numbers aren't available in Nov. when the bucks and bulls RAC is, so I don't buy that. I agree, quit changing the rules/regs every **** year, I will take my tag and the rest I will do. I would also like to see a HUGE PUSH in public access, rather than the push for CWMU's.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I want to have the best opportunity possible that falls within a sustainable management plan so that I can share good times with my friends, kids, and hopefully grandkids someday. I want and expect those who choose careers in management to conduct themselves with the utmost integrity and devote their lives to leading us in the right direction. For my part, I will always be a sportsman with ethics. I will donate the resources that I can afford, the time that I can, and will try to influence others to do the same.-----SS


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## pocone (Sep 29, 2009)

I just want to spend time with my family and friends. Some years we do great, others, not so much, but we have a great time together. Will I hold out for a big deer? Sometimes. Other times, like last year, I took the first buck I saw. I had my 9-year old, and my 3-year old with me, and I wanted them to have that experience of their dad getting a buck. Teaching them about respect, and showing them how deer are handled after the shot was important to me. I didn't care if it was the biggest, or smallest buck on the mountain. For those that care, it was a small 3X3. 
I understand that some people just want to shoot big bucks. That's fine. The one thing that bothers me is that it seems like people have forgotten that it is hunting. That means that not everyone is going to harvest a deer. Those that do, certainly aren't all going to take monster 30"+ bucks. We have lost a lot of winter range that once allowed deer herds to be greater in size. A trophy now, is truly a trophy. I love seeing an occasional monster come off the hill. It shows that they are still around, and can be had if you work hard enough (or just luck out).


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Longfeather said:


> Just let me get a tag and hunt, I'll take care of the rest. Stop micro-managing me and focus on improving the deer herd numbers.


+1 more


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> Longfeather wrote:
> Just let me get a tag and hunt, I'll take care of the rest. Stop micro-managing me and focus on improving the deer herd numbers.


Amen!


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## guner (Sep 25, 2007)

I myself dont care if I get anything (though a buck/bull now and again is nice) even though my oldest son isnt quit old enough to hunt big game, to me I get a kick out of showing him tracks and asking him questions and him asking me questions. Even when we are stoped and watch a few Doe's come and walk through a clearing and we just are quiet and wait to see if anything else comes along. It sounds cheesy but I really do just love to be out and hunt with family. I see in my sons eyes the way I felt following my old man all over kindom come. We saw alot of Doe's/Fawns last year just nothing with antlers, but it's still all good. Now I do think that the way they are managing the hunts lead much to be desired. If they spent half of the money that SEEMS to be going to mystery crap on the herds we would be alot better off.
my .02


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Longfeather said:


> Just let me get a tag and hunt, I'll take care of the rest. *Stop micro-managing me* and focus on improving the deer herd numbers.


A-FREAKING-MEN!


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## BIG (Nov 12, 2009)

If I am in Utah I expect every ridge to be covered with orange and every two point running for it's life to get dumped.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

How about some "real time:" management!

Instead of peaks and valleys, Tags for every species should be adjusted 
AS NEEDED, ANUALLY :!: 

Elk right now are a prime example, Letting the herds peak to all time highs,
And Awesome hunting, Only to spend the last 2-3 years POUDING the 
crap out of them :shock: ....... Cow's and bull's BOTH ... IT Sucks :evil: 

Turkeys will be next, General season now, no way to adjust permits were needed.
Wait and see.....The roller coaster is headed DOWN HILL NOW with birds :!:

I'll tell ya what I expect,, BETTER GAME MANAGEMENT :!: :!: :!: 

General deer, the last several years,
Short season hunts, Low buck to doe ratios, Below objective heard sizes,,,,
Just keep piling thousands upon thousands of hunters on a depressed deer heard.
PURE BS


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Just another PRIME TIME example!

Emergency Wild life board meeting tomarrow,

Over harvesting of lions.....Huh, Who saw that coming? 

BOUT FREAK'in TIME :!: :!: :!:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meeting ... agenda.pdf


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Agreed on the "micro-managing" theme. If they want to control the harvest, they could change the online app to allow successful hunters to fill out a mandatory online survey in order to get a tag the following year, and if they don't they aren't eligible. They need to collect FACTS and allow tag allocations and distribution of those tags based on harvest DATA instead of political or emotional stances.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

There are 2 kinds of hunting happening now in Utah. Hunting for tags and actual hunting. Some people enjoy this mess of odds, weapon choice, harvest data and the anticipation of drawing a coveted tag. It's ridiculous. This system gets messier every year. 

My expectations are that deer hunting is pretty great in Utah if you know where to go and are willing to work at it in several areas across the state. IF you can win the tag hunt. 

I like boots on the ground hunting and not keyboard pursuit.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I expect the sentiment of entitlement to continue to reign supreme and armchair "biologists" to propose changes to suit their personal agendas on a yearly basis.

But honestly, for me... I expect to make memories and tell stories that will be hold entertainment value for years. I expect to take my kids and teach them to respect nature & others. I expect to spend time with family, eat well, sleep comfortably, enjoy trail camera pictures, ride ATVs, hike into new areas, have the anticipation of whether I finally draw a tag this year kill me for nearly three months, the "unsuccessful" email/letter, to wonder if there we be any moose left when I finally draw, and if all the stars align to feel my heartbeat in my right index finger until the trigger breaks. I expect to go home exhausted and wonder if these are my "good old days." 

I expect to be successful at all of the above... whether I harvest or not. Then I expect to do it again next year.


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## Gweedo (Mar 12, 2013)

I don't mind filling out an online survey for my harvest or failure to harvest. If that's what it takes to get the right amount of tags for each area adjusted anually than so be it. I expect to see decent herds and management of them. The memories I make while hunting with my father, who only has a couple years left, and with my son, who will start hunting soon , are what really matter. I don't expect to take or even see a trophy animal every year. I would like to see something legal to even shoot at every year on public property. I expect to have about a 30% to 50% success rate and be able to teach my children how to respect the land and care for an animal from the time it is first seen while scouting till the last bite at the dinner table. I don't like the CWMU's and would like to see continued habitat improvement on public land.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

I suppose I have a bit of a different expectation than most, probably due to age/time in the field, but maybe not.

I expect, first and foremost, for our game departments to manage wildlife with the best scientific, biological information they have at hand to insure their health, growth and sustainability; then manage those who hunt them, keeping social expectations from diminishing the primary goal of the herds' health and sustainability.

I expect some who would like to experience the thrill of the chase throw their hands up in defeat while going through the multitude of regulations that read like a legal brief to the Supreme Court.

I expect to see many hunters opening weekend, after having traversed to and fro the myriad roads/trails, only seeing the most vulnerable and young of their quarry, to be frustrated and upset at the game agency for doing such a terrible job at managing the herds.

I expect to see a few lone or partnered hunters off the beaten path I too have taken, telling me of the bucks that eluded them, or congratulate them on their packs full of game.

Most importantly, I expect to see the mountains full of camps, trailers and tents, the hills awash with orange, friends and families out and about with tags in hand, youngsters in tow with eyes aglow with anticipation and wonder of it all. And at the end, I expect to come home with my old and tired body exhausted to the point of euphoria, my mind and soul filled to the brim with new memories and adventures to keep me occupied on those future days when such excursions are no longer possible.

Yep, I expect a lot... 8)


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Longfeather said:


> Just let me get a tag and hunt, I'll take care of the rest. Stop micro-managing me and focus on improving the deer herd numbers.


I don't think many could argue with this statement.


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## KennyC (Apr 28, 2010)

My expectations are a tag for the animal and to institute a law opening all Public land and that private land owners must provide access to public land that is land locked by private land. That is the one thing that make me furious. You may not own the top of the mountain but you can't get there because someone ownes the bottom of the mountain. Geez, rediculous!


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## Steveb (Sep 11, 2007)

Longfeather nailed it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> How about some "real time:" management!
> 
> Instead of peaks and valleys, Tags for every species should be adjusted
> AS NEEDED, ANUALLY :!:
> ...


 I hesitate to blast yet another one of your posts, but dang it man you beg for it! Harvesting males of deer/elk and **** sure turkeys has little to no effect on over-all species populations. Of course that is merely PROVEN science, so no worries.......right? I have talked with numerous biologists and 'turkey experts' with 20+ years of hunting/managing turkey populations, and everyone of them responded with the same answer when asked about whether or not turkey populations would be negatively affected by unlimited tom turkey tags during the month of May....which is AFTER the bulk of the hens have already started nesting. So, my question to you and other 'turkey experts' from Utardville: How can killing toms AFTER the hens have started nesting hurt the over-all turkey populations? Also, what is the life expectancy of a wild tom turkey? Do you think we should manage turkeys like we do LE deer/elk and implement harvest age objectives? If so, would successful hunters be required to send in a spur........?

Since we have had, for the last several years, a depressed deer herd, should we set up group counseling, or should we go with one on one couch dates? Just wondering.....

Anyone who actually thinks wild animals, ANY/ALL species can be managed by humans w/o peaks and valleys.......I have some ocean front property here in central Utah for sale..........!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

What it dose 'PRO' is, makes hunting, and the experiance , very POOR :shock: 

You , 'kiil'em" all guys can have the junk general stuff...... 

I know how to move around to were it's good


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > How about some "real time:" management!
> ...


Couldn't agree more Pro, Goofy's been in the sauce yet again. Now with turkeys instead of elk. :lol:

Idaho handled turkeys the exact same way 25 years ago. They had reduced tags and LE hunts the same way we did for years so their numbers would improve state wide. Then they went over the counter and have been that way ever since. The result, more turkeys! Now you can kill two in the spring and they also have a fall hunt! I've been hunting up there for ten years now and I see more birds every year I go. As you said, the proven SCIENCE on those birds is that the harvest of 20% of the toms every year will do NOTHING to hurt their numbers. Natural causes however do hurt turkeys. Predation, (to a small extent) and bad weather are the two main culprits. But turkeys are a VERY tough bird with a VERY high breeding success rate. Once they're established you cant get rid of em. Goofys idea of "poor hunting" is that fact that the birds are now a little more educated making them harder to kill. (just like elk) What!? you mean I gotta actually HUNT to get one? DAMMIT!!! I've been waiting for years to draw this tag you OWE me a turkey! Now I gotta actually work for one? That's it. I quit! WAAAAAA!


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> What it dose 'PRO' is, makes hunting, and the experiance , very POOR :shock:
> 
> You , 'kiil'em" all guys can have the junk general stuff......
> 
> I know how to move around to were it's good


If that is truly how you feel great, stick to the limited entry stuff and leave the rest for us. The problem is that the so called "Quality" guy's are never happy. The hunters have been cut, micromanaged etc etc but the "Quality" guys still keep complaining.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

So, if I am interpreting the comments correctly, there appears to be 2 camps of thought.

1. Guys that want the opportunity hunt and view that opportunity as more than killing a buck. It represents an opportunity to spend time with family/friends and to pass the hunting heritage along.

and...

2. Guys that just want to whine and moan about the division of wildlife and are either unwilling to share what they believe a general season hunt ought to be or have no idea what their expectaions are.

Please clarify if I have misrepresented your posts.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well Dahlmer, Here's my take on it.
The Nebo unit is my back yard, The Manti unit out the front window as I type.
35 years here and watched the deer roller coaster....

Hunted the Nebo side for 25 years, It was very good for many years, 
as of late, Haven't hunted it for a long time now, Deer and elk both WAAAY down.

Myself, I wont shoot a deer I'm not putting on the wall. Now my kids, that different.
Really, anything they want. The Manti side is still doing well enough to support that.
My 15 year olds 2012 Indianola buck.....OK for general season I'd say...
And what I "Exspect"..on GS type units.
[attachment=3:203ip2fq]100_3627a.jpg[/attachment:203ip2fq]^^ a few minutes from home 8) ^^

Also , here are some wintering Manti bucks from the last few months,
Respectful bucks, And what I would "expect" on all general units.[attachment=2:203ip2fq]100_3668a.jpg[/attachment:203ip2fq][attachment=1:203ip2fq]100_3700a.jpg[/attachment:203ip2fq][attachment=0:203ip2fq]100_3649a.jpg[/attachment:203ip2fq]

I'd dare bet if all the general deer units had good a number of bucks like these in a mix
of say 18 to a 100 ratio....This antler restriction discussion would go a way  :!:

We now have a system in place to do this.. Use it... opt 2.
Forget AR's..............For now.
:O•-:


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

my expectation for the general rifle deer hunt...I expect those are the 2 weekends that I'll put my bow down and go hunt geese in Myton...a lot safer than being in the woods with all the little orange guys shooting at anything that moves...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> What it dose 'PRO' is, makes hunting, and the experiance , very POOR :shock:
> 
> You , 'kiil'em" all guys can have the junk general stuff......
> 
> I know how to move around to were it's good


Really, you know how to move around? Is that why you want the Wildlife Board to micro-manage you and all others hunters as to where they can hunt.................? I have enjoyed the general season turkey hunt immensely that last couple of years. Of course I don't go out feeling entitled of getting a B & C tom, nor of having multiple toms coming in at full strut from sunup to sunset.

As for the snide comment, "You , 'kiil'em" all guys can have the junk general stuff......" Fine, then stop trying to take the junk general stuff. Pretty simple, yes? I also have yet to speak to anyone, nor read a post from anyone who advocates killing them all. To suggest such is intellectually dishonest and childish to boot. Just because people don't think they should be entitled to kill something 'worthy' of hanging on your wall every year, doesn't mean they want to kill every deer, every elk, and every turkey. :roll:


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Agreed, if you're going to bitch about general season don't get a tag. Save them for us "lesser"hunters.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Small bucks taste really good and watching your kids shoot them is fun. Does that qualify me as a "shoot them all" guy?----SS


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Myself, I won't shoot one I can't put in the freezer!


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## clean pass through (Nov 26, 2007)

I expect to hunt. When and wherever I have a tag for (archery). There are good bucks in every unit in the state IMO but you need to hunt. That is what I expect. 

I really get tired of hearing people blame others for everything and anything that does not go the way, or their percieved way it should turn out. (Hunting and Life.)

FYI; THE SKY IS NOT FALLING, HUNTING IS GOOD FOR THE SOUL AND FOR THE FAMILY! So go out and have a good safe positive experience.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I'll get more specific as to why, " I expect " better general season deer management....

A couple units with 2012 numbers for example.

Nebo:
Estimated deer herd size of around 11,000

Total general season deer permits,
880 archery, 880 muzzy, 2,640 rifle tags.....4,400 deer permits

Do the math, at 15/100 BD ratios, = 1,650 buck deer, with 4,400 permits hunting them.

Kamas:
Estimated deer herd size 5,950,

Total general season deer permits,
Archery 640, muzzy 640 , rifle tags 1,920....3,200 deer permits

Math, 15/100 BD ratios, = 900 buck deer on the unit, 3,200 hunters :shock:

North slope:
Estimated deer herd size 6,200,

Total general season deer permits,
Archery 720, muzzy 720, rifle tags 2,160...

Math, 15/100 BD ratios, = 930 buck deer, 3,600 deer hunters,,,,again :shock:

AS Old fudd stated, pizz poor management right there......


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Actually, Goofy, your numbers are ONLY including the bucks that are left following the hunts....the real numbers are going to be higher because these numbers do NOT include yearling bucks! Remember, buck/doe ratios are figured post-hunt...so, they cannot include the fawns who have NOT grown antlers yet.

Also, the number of hunters isn't nearly as important as the number of deer harvested. What are the success ratios for those units and how many deer are harvested by those hunters?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Actually, Goofy, your numbers are ONLY including the bucks that are left following the hunts....the real numbers are going to be higher because these numbers do NOT include yearling bucks! Remember, buck/doe ratios are figured post-hunt...so, they cannot include the fawns who have NOT grown antlers yet.
> 
> Also, the number of hunters isn't nearly as important as the number of deer harvested. What are the success ratios for those units and how many deer are harvested by those hunters?


Exactly. We're also forgetting that only 3% of the hunters do 99% of the killing. Not everyone is as skilled a hunter as me! :mrgreen: 8) Then factor in predation, cars, bad winters, and sickness and it's a wonder deer aren't extinct! :roll:

And I've always had a problem with this whole numbers and stats game. Those numbers can be and most likely are manipulated in many ways and are very rough estimates at best. I think Goofy out driving around with his binoculars is a better way of keeping track of how many animals there really are. And we all know how accurate that science is...


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

bwhntr said:



> Longfeather said:
> 
> 
> > Just let me get a tag and hunt, I'll take care of the rest. Stop micro-managing me and focus on improving the deer herd numbers.
> ...


I respectively disagree with your statement that not many can argue that statement. Allow me to make a statement, that will somewhat disagree with your statement about the statement. 

In all seriousness, I do agree with both of you, but I also see the flip side of the coin. The DWR does need to regulate the number of tags sold. Failure to do so, would be a blatant disregard for attempting to improve the deer herd. While I myself am not a fan of the micro-managed units, but I did see a huge difference in the area that we hunted last year. Generally we will see anywhere from 10-20 hunters in the canyon we've hunted for the past 20 years. Last year, we saw 3, besides the 3 of us. (Only one gun in our group) In the end, dad got a nice buck... but we saw a bigger one about 20 min after he downed his. Go figure.

Only time will tell if this little unit plan is going to work or not. Like any plan, it will require time to prove if it works or not. Plus, there still a TON of people who are peeved that they didn't draw a tag last year, so they're still hating on it. IF the plan works, and the herds get better, then the biologists "win"... until then, all of the "armchair biologists" will always say they have better ideas. Sometimes we all just have to let things play out.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I think Goofy out driving around with his binoculars is a better way of keeping track of how many animals there really are. And we all know how accurate that science is...


We defer to houndsman to tell us how many cougar there are so why not everything else?

Or we can manage by trends. Deer hunters are harvesting fewer and younger deer than ever. The deer population must be low. :roll: :O•-: o-||


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Some of you are making fun of goofy when he is posting some pretty good proof of piss poor management. 

I cant disagree with his hunter to buck ratios because I've been on the rifle hunt in those areas and it sucks! I used to hunt all three weapons on the nebo 25 years ago and the hunt was great. It sucks now! Black and white difference! So i feel dont hate the messenger hate the game. Having a unit that falls below 10 bucks to 100 year after year needs to be fixed! Its unacceptable! Also how do you increase the averall deer numbers on the nebo unit when every year the whack the does in the name of depredation? You dont!

When dalmer asked the question "What do you expect?" All you guys sound like a bunch of greedy individuals "I want my tag and ill do the rest", "+1", "+100". Those are bullchit answers! You cant possibly think everyone should get a tag especially if your hunting the areas goofy put up. It sucks the hunting in those areas is so bad and has piss poor unacceptable management! The CAN has been KICKED down the ROAD long enough. FIX IT!

I could care less about the argument you all throw out about bucks dont make bucks. Grow fawns, yada yada. The facts are until the deer herd does rebound in those areas you cant biologically or socially hunt it with the amount of hunters they have. Tags need to be cut!

I hunt the front with my tag! The front ain't what it used to be as far as deer numbers are concerned. Never mind the buck numbers are in the toilet from what they used to be 5 years ago. So go ahead and tell me i dont hunt hard enough, go ahead and tell me i dont get far enough away from the road, go ahead and tell me shooting the does isnt making any difference up there, go ahead and tell me any of it aint true. Its not a joke anymore. I want my kids to have the same experience i had when i was a kid. Right now i dont see that happening! Just because there is one big buck left on the front and you've seen it or because i have killed 7 mature bucks in the last 10 years off it dont mean its not going down hill. While i was talking about the front im mostly talking about having my kids be able to experience the type of hunting i had in the nebo, wasatch, strawberry, ect.

If something didnt need to be changed there wouldnt be this discussion popping up every month! 

So what do i expect? I want to hunt every year also. Reality says that might not be possible especially with rifle. Its simply too efficient! So tag cuts again are needed! To get rid off all the bickering about weapons and pointing fingers about whos weapon is at fault. Im to the point let us hunt with all three weapons and all three seasons IF you DRAW. Get rid of lifetime liscenses on the "general units" by calling them all LE units. This way its fair for all. It stops the fighting between hunters and its just as painful for me as it is for you when the tags are cut. Make all hunters do service hours in the field or by killing coyotes. You dont do your hours then you cant apply for the hunt the following year.Then maybe will start seeing deer increase in numbers. Then maybe will all be able to enjoy tag increases.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

If you have the means and the time to scout off and on from say, May until the Archery Hunt,and keep track of what your 2 eyes are seeing. HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM..Last year was first time NO TAG in 49 years.Bummer..Not being able to take the bow out with my family was tough.If I had a tag,would have made no difference on the herd, haven't taken an animal with a bow in 7 years..I think the Micro thing is a load of CRAP.If the Micro Management has an impact on the herds. I will Eat My Word CRAP.I'll stay with AR.U All Have A GREAT DAY)))---------------->


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Tags need to be cut!


yeah...because that has really worked wonders in colorado and nevada. And, look at how the deer numbers on the Henry's has skyrocketed with such low tag numbers! :roll:

I hate to tell you, but cutting tags isn't going to bring back the deer...kind of like changing the tire isn't going to fix a broken engine!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> Actually, Goofy, your numbers are ONLY including the bucks that are left following the hunts....the real numbers are going to be higher because these numbers do NOT include yearling bucks! Remember, buck/doe ratios are figured post-hunt...so, they cannot include the fawns who have NOT grown antlers yet.
> 
> Also, the number of hunters isn't nearly as important as the number of deer harvested. What are the success ratios for those units and how many deer are harvested by those hunters?


Alas, posting stuff based on facts gets you nowhere with the likes of goofy and swb on this topic. Things are 'broke', so we must do something, even if that something has NO chance of 'fixing' what is 'broke', right guys? The majority of bucks harvested each year are young bucks, so the numbers goofy posted are intentionally misleading.

As for swb's comment about "pretty good proof of **** poor management", this poor management comes directly from the mindset of doing "something" and from managing FOR hunters instead of WITH hunters! As long as the primary focus is on the buck segment of the deer population, we will just keep spinning our wheels going nowhere, or making things worse.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Bart, w2u
By your own rational we should just give out 300,000 buck tags and things will go back to normal. Hell why stop at 300,000 lets give out a million tags so the deer herd will recover faster! You know thats bs!

Sure im fully aware if your deer herd increases in numbers more tags can be issued that stuff you learn in 1st grade buck elementary school.

Im fully aware bucks dont breed bucks and make more bucks because thats what i learned in 6th grade buck elementary School.

I kept going to buck school and i have learned you can only kill a certain percentage of the bucks you have or you start having problems like the nebo. Low buck to doe ratios and unhappy hunters.

I earned my buckmasters degree when i learned that their is indeed a social side to hunting.

Bart, w2u im all for growing a deer herd thats the end all fix but until it grows im not ignorant to the fact you cant hunt or kill more bucks then the social or biological side allows. If the social side drops in satisfaction people gripe and point fingers at each other saying there the reason their hunt faild. We all know if the biological side drops to low stuff wont get bred. Deer dont live in a corral so they cant be managed like cattle. Im also fully aware how many bucks it takes to cover those does in the wild. 


Im also fortunate to be part of the 3% side Tex talked about. My kids are also part of that group because of the work i put into it. The work however is at a tipping point on alot of these units where it far out weighs the reward. If it wasnt we wouldnt be having this conversation.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

That round won by SW,, TKO!....


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> > Tags need to be cut!
> ...


We know it wont bring back large deer herds!

What it will DO, is make the best of what we have left:!:

AND make for a much more enjoyable hunting experience 8)


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> > Tags need to be cut!
> ...


Changing a tire wont fix a broken engine but you wouldnt have had to fix the engine if the flat tire didnt force you off the road into the tree and broke the engine.

Cutting tags is a side affect to low deer numbers its not the cause of low deer numbers! Thats stuff you learn with a buckmaster degree! :shock:


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Ding ding ding! :grin:

There either thinking of a doosey or im about to be blindsided by someone else with a change in subject. Thats what always happens when you argue politics. Bait and switch. Kick the can.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Changing a tire wont fix a broken engine but you wouldnt have had to fix the engine if the flat tire didnt force you off the road into the tree and broke the engine.


so it was the tree's fault...those darn trees!!!  
I present a motion that the group of kids from the AT&T commercials take the place of the current WB members.
It's not that difficult...


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

stablebuck said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> > Changing a tire wont fix a broken engine but you wouldnt have had to fix the engine if the flat tire didnt force you off the road into the tree and broke the engine.
> ...


Lol
You did it bait and switch


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

someone had to lighten the mood...
I'm just glad that I know how to kill things without grandpa's 30-06 and my cousin's Yamaha Grizzly...


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Lol me too


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## skeptic (Apr 17, 2008)

I always hesitate to respond as it seems like its always a pi$$ing match on here, I am the last of my family hunting, I have archery hunted fishlake for the last 30 years, I have seen a steady decline in the deer herd. In fact the last year and this year I didn't even attempt to get a deer tag, I will chase spike elk around instead. I am probably over thinking this but I think we could have a tag every year to hunt and spend time with the family and not draw every 2-3 years. Why not issue a tag good for 5 years that you can only kill 2-3 deer in that 5 year period? Most of us want to hunt every year but we don't care if we kill every year. This way dwr still gets there money and we can all still hunt and spend time with family and friends.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

We keep cutting tags and the problems still exist.

I thought it was option two that was going to solve the problem, etc, etc, etc, it gets old after while.

You tag cutters won't stop until you have to have 4-5 points to draw a general tag. Then you still will be calling for more tag cuts.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Right on Que, a news release from the DWR, upcoming RAC's, Permit numbers..

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/news/42-ut ... tings.html


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Option 2 has just started it will take time to see how things pan out with it. I hated this option at first because i never wanted to be rat holed into a tiny area. Im still upset with it because i personally saw a few areas get pounded with hunters and deer get slaughtered. In fact i saw more deer get killed in 4 days of rifle hunting then i've seen get killed in 11 years of bowhunting combined.

Im as anti tag cutter as they get. I hate seeing tags getting cut. Thats why im always for other options like tag disruption to lesser weapons. Im even open to other suggestions like above 2 deer in 5 years. I think its a great idea. Heck im all for shutting the canyons down to motorized vehicles if it would allow you to still hunt every year.

To me its not about the kill. Its not about the horns or inches. Heck id be for shutting the whole state down to rifles, muzzys, and compound bows and saying you have to use long bows if it ment you could have a tag every year and you could hunt something besides spikes.

Its about managing a dwindling resource while still allowing opportunity. Its about putting fuel in the tank and actually seeing game. Id honestly give up my general deer tags for the next 10-15 years if i could take my kids out and hunt like i did when i was their age. Back then you didnt care if there was 50 orange people on a ridge. You always saw bucks. They were easy to get from the road with all the hunters. If you wanted horns you could hike and find them. It was like thanksgiving dinner plenty to go arround.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Right on Que, a news release from the DWR, upcoming RAC's, Permit numbers..
> 
> http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/news/42-ut ... tings.html


Thanks goofy, been waiting for that, but still have to wait a bit longer for the actual recommendations to come out.

I would suggest as aggresively as I can, that all you hunters that have concerns, one way or the other, attend the RAC and WB meetings. It is more than discouraging when I attend to only see a handfull of hunters there. Even when there are contentious issues, only a couple dozen attend, yet they complain and complain, over and over, year after year. "Going to the rac's don't matter! They don't listen to hunters!" Get tired of hearing that too when there is such limited hunter presence at the meetings.

I know the UWC will be seeking input from it's membership shortly, and will represent those concerns at the meetings. But, that doesn't mean folks should just sit back and feel satisfied for expressing their concerns to a wildlife org. Everyone has enough time to make arrangements to take time off from whatever, and go to the meetings. Stop the overwhelming appathy that is so prevelent in todays hunters, show up!

I don't care if you are a member of UWC, SFW, MDF, RMEF or any other group here in the state. If you have concerns and want to express them to the rac's or wb, are unsure how to do it, let me know and I will personally help draft proposals to submit to the committees and walk you through the process ahead of time so you will know what to expect. Doesn't matter if want to cut tags, add tags, see conservation projects done, whatever your concerns are, let me know. I would love to be swamped with emails asking for a little bit of help, and I'll stay up all night answering them and helping out however I can. In return, I just ask that you show up and follow through!

JUST DO IT!!!! :shock:

[email protected]


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I've always found, if you wait until the RAC's to do/propose anything, 
your too late for that year :!:..... Cuz the decisions have already be made.

Since the first of this year, I've had several long talks with DWR Bio's..

I've also sent countless E-mail's about concerning issues.....

More things go down BEFORE the meetings start, Than during the actual gathering.

But Perry is right, hunters should attend with issues or concerns...

I know SWF will be there, In force. Claiming tons/thousands, of new memberships 
from the Expo... Saw it happening first hand.

I know what their recommendations are, and I agree.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

It's not as if in 2013 the DWR or WB ,RAC or anyone else with a say doesn't know what to do and is looking for input. They have to hear you out because that the rules. 

Deer deaths are compensatory. I've asked this a dozen times. What happened to the deer I didn't shoot on Monroe this yr? What happened to all the deer that weren't killed by hunters as a result of tag cuts? What happened to all the deer that were not shot when we went to choose your weapon? 

Some things get to kill deer 24/7/365 days a yr with no regulation. Hunter only get to kill deer during the daylight hours for about 60 days a yr. And we are limited to only one harvest and it must be a buck. 

We do nothing to prevent those "other things" from increasing there take when we decrease ours. We need to start by micro managing those "other things" otherwise our sacrifice will be mitigated. 

Now read my signature.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> To me its not about the kill. Its not about the horns or inches. Heck id be for shutting the whole state down to rifles, muzzys, and compound bows and saying you have to use long bows if it ment you could have a tag every year and you could hunt something besides spikes.


Now yer talkin! :twisted: *()*


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > To me its not about the kill. Its not about the horns or inches. Heck id be for shutting the whole state down to rifles, muzzys, and compound bows and saying you have to use long bows if it ment you could have a tag every year and you could hunt something besides spikes.
> 
> 
> Now yer talkin! :twisted: *()*


Could you imagine how good that would be? That is what i dream about when the lights go out!


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > > To me its not about the kill. Its not about the horns or inches. Heck id be for shutting the whole state down to rifles, muzzys, and compound bows and saying you have to use long bows if it ment you could have a tag every year and you could hunt something besides spikes.
> ...


Shangri La -()/-
Every bowhunter east of the Mississippi would be pouring into Utah and would not think twice about paying the non-res fees!!!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Bart, w2u
> By your own rational we should just give out 300,000 buck tags and things will go back to normal. Hell why stop at 300,000 lets give out a million tags so the deer herd will recover faster! You know thats bs! No, Scott, what I am pointing out is that reducing buck permits is NOT helping the deer herd. And yet, you keep wanting further permit reductions. Nonsensical. Hyperbole on your part may humor folks like goofy, but it has no substance, and no validity. But, to clarify, having excessive numbers of bucks, just so the inches crowd can have a 'better' experience, can indeed hinder a struggling deer herd from maintaining or increasing in population.
> 
> Sure im fully aware if your deer herd increases in numbers more tags can be issued that stuff you learn in 1st grade buck elementary school.
> ...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Ding ding ding! :grin:
> 
> There either thinking of a doosey or im about to be blindsided by someone else with a change in subject. Thats what always happens when you argue politics. Bait and switch. Kick the can.


 You spend far too much time on the blowhard hunter site, you accuse others of doing what you do.......................... :roll:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

stillhunterman said:


> I would suggest as aggresively as I can, that all you hunters that have concerns, one way or the other, attend the RAC and WB meetings. It is more than discouraging when I attend to only see a handfull of hunters there. Even when there are contentious issues, only a couple dozen attend, yet they complain and complain, over and over, year after year. "Going to the rac's don't matter! They don't listen to hunters!" Get tired of hearing that too when there is such limited hunter presence at the meetings.


 I was once a believer as you are. After years of wasted energy, I finally learned, its a rigged game, and only a select few have any say. Going to the RAC's or a WB is more of a waste than voting on the 1st Tuesday of November. I am afraid things will continue to spiral downhill until its too late to save hunting, and it won't be the fault of anti-hunting groups, it will be just like the demise of this nation..........it will be our own undoing.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I guess we are only going to agree on the fact the wrac is a dog and phony show. Things are definitely bought and discussed before that meeting. 

I dont think its possible to agree with everyone on any given subject.
Nephi was my stomping grounds. I left that area over 10 years ago because its a waste of time hunting anything on it.
I dont agree with goofy on cougars. Because the areas i coyote hunt and the areas i deer hunt have loads of them.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

An interesting article from the Denver Post...written about a year ago:
http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_20630849

It talks about both tag cuts and predators....


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> TEX-O-BOB said:
> 
> 
> > > To me its not about the kill. Its not about the horns or inches. Heck id be for shutting the whole state down to rifles, muzzys, and compound bows and saying you have to use long bows if it ment you could have a tag every year and you could hunt something besides spikes.
> ...


This sounds like a nightmare to me... I can just imagine all of the idiots running around with long bows who have no idea how to use them properly and who have never hunted with a bow before. The last thing I want in my dream deer hunting world is to have archers on every ridge and around every corner and in every tree...especially when most of them wouldn't have had any archery experience.

Don't get me wrong...I like the idea of giving more archery opportunity and reducing the rifle hunting opportunity proportionately; however, part of the appeal of the archery hunt is having fewer hunters to contend and compete with and against!


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> > TEX-O-BOB said:
> ...


How do you figure that??? With traditional archery equipment in play it would be so quiet in between 7-11am you could hear a mouse peeing on a cotton ball in the woods. Everyone would be hanging out in a treestand. Either that or there would be a lot of sirens going off because there would be about 5,000 people that have never used a stand before and about half of them would need to be choppered off the mountain by the end of opening day :lol: Based upon my experience on the rifle hunt...I'm gonna go with the latter :rotfl:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> An interesting article from the Denver Post...written about a year ago:
> http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_20630849
> 
> It talks about both tag cuts and predators....


From the link:


> "But despite drastic reductions in a lot of these license numbers, herds continue to decline, which tells us that license numbers are not driving these declines."


I realize with some folks here, even when confronted with science and facts, opinions will remain unchanged, but this should wake people up!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I expect that there will always be someone complaining about something every year. 
I expect I'll have the chance at killing the biggest buck of my life this year, if I can stay healthy. 
I expect I'll have a great time with friends and family checking out new areas to hunt this year. 
I expect to read some really good reports and stories this coming fall about everybodys hunts


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## greatwhitehunter (Nov 16, 2007)

I liked the second post on this thread. 

As long as I am healthy, I'll go where I feel I need to go to find the "big one".

I enjoy the experience and opportunity to get out every year.

I do not need to tag out every year, just like being outdoors, away from work and the people. It gives me time to think about life and let the imagination run wild. 

Last year during the extended archery hunt, I watched as two eagles tried picking off a coyote on a ridgeline. The coyote was at full bore running away and the eagles took turns swooping at him. The coyote would jump up in the air and practically do a back flip trying to defend himself and stay out of their talons. 

I would have never saw that had I not been on the mountain hunting. That experience was priceless....I was cheering for the eagles, they all dissappeared over the ridge before I could see who won.

The only thing I expect any more during the hunts is time away from the damned city life!!


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

This has been an interesting thread. Since I asked the question, I'll share my expectations of a general season hunt. 

My expectations for this hunt are that it is the best option to provide an opportunity to expose new hunters to hunting. I do not expect to see mature bucks behind every tree. I hope to be able to see deer, to share a fun camping trip with friends and family, to enjoy the opportunity to get away from the real world for a while and enjoy the beautiful and varied terrain that Utah offers.

My expectation as well as experience has been that if I am patient and willing to work hard I should be able to find a few decent bucks even on the "horrid" rifle hunt. Every few years I may even find a trophy and be fortunate enough to harvest him. 

LE hunts are great and they are a lot of fun. They don't, however, meet the demand of most hunters. I have hunted on the Books several time as well as the Pauns. Those were each unique hunts and great experiences. I wouldn't give up the general season to see the whole state like that though. It would lower recruitment as well as overall hunters in the field. It also sets unrealistic expectations for youth who have never had to work really hard for their first 4 point.

At the end of the day I just want to be out in the field and have the option to hunt the way I choose. I happen to prefer pursuing mature bucks and am willing to go a few years without harvesting a deer if I can't find one I like. I also know that not everyone feels the way I do. I took my 7 year old son out for the first time this year. I required some changes on my part. I would have been willing to shoot any buck if he asked me too. Things change...I want a hunt that provides me the option to be flexible too.


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