# Tiger? Brown?



## harlin

I usually don't have a problem ID'ing fish, but this one befuddles me..This 22 inch trout was caught out of a rectangular shaped hole that I dubbed "the bathtub". At first I thought brown, but then I saw the squiggly marks on the side..Tiger? This one has me scratching my head. Anybody have a clue what species this is?


----------



## .45

Harlin, I would guess it's an eastern Utah brown.


----------



## Dunkem

Gonna say tiger because of the shape of the spots,was there any white on the anal fin?:noidea:

Edit, gonna change my mind, brown trout.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Brown


----------



## DeadI

Brown


----------



## harlin

What initially confused me is I've seen tigers that looked very close to browns..I will go with brown then.


----------



## Sawbillslayer

I think it is a brown, for whatever its worth.
Nice fish either way.


----------



## brookieguy1

Nice brown. Looks like it ate the trusty maribou.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Tiger trout will have brook trout color fins and squiggly lines instead of spots.

Your fish has plain yellow fins and spots.


----------



## spencerD

Also, tiger trout have vermiuclation on their backs, the same patterning brook and lake trout have. Browns don't.










Brown with similar squiggly dots, from Diamond Fork










Brown with very yellow belly, oddly spaced dots, also from DF










Traditional looking brown trout










Tiger trout. Easy enough to tell em apart when you have em side by side to compare. What's really hard is telling a splake from a brook trout in lakes where both are stocked. The trick I've found is brookies retain the blue halos on their spots, and keep the traditional square tail of a trout. Splake have a forked tail, no blue halos. At least, from my experience.


----------



## harlin

I have caught tiger trout that don't have vermiculation...Case in point, this tiger trout has spots, but it is not a brown. Generalities don't always apply to trout, so that is why I posted this question. But, I agree with everyone that it is a brown. ;-)


----------



## spencerD

harlin said:


> I have caught tiger trout that don't have vermiculation...Case in point, this tiger trout has spots, but it is not a brown. Generalities don't always apply to trout, so that is why I posted this question. But, I agree with everyone that it is a brown. ;-)
> 
> View attachment 31537


Oh yeah. I've caught some cutts that had almost no spots at all, then some rainbows that had spotting patterns like a cutt, and vice-versa.

That is an interesting tiger. Where'd you catch it, if you don't mind sharing? The giveaway for that is how solid the spots are on the gill plate, indicative of the brown trout, but the squiggly dots and pattern on the body looks tiger-like. I've never seen a tiger quite like that.


----------



## harlin

That was a tiger from Currant Creek. It definitely has a more dominant brown trout gene in it.


----------



## brookieguy1

harlin said:


> That was a tiger from Currant Creek. It definitely has a more dominant brown trout gene in it.


Pronounced "Kern Crik". Just ask my cousin, Ron Sweat.


----------



## Dodger

harlin said:


> I have caught tiger trout that don't have vermiculation...Case in point, this tiger trout has spots, but it is not a brown. Generalities don't always apply to trout, so that is why I posted this question. But, I agree with everyone that it is a brown. ;-)
> 
> View attachment 31537


Your fish doesn't have spots, it's just the pattern of the vermiculation that makes it look like spots.

The fish in the OP is definitely a brown.


----------



## DocEsox

This fish is definitely a brown trout. Although there can be a good deal of variation of tiger trout they have equal mix of brook and brown genetics....they are always a female brown crossed with a male brookie. They are just about universally sterile as they aren't even in the same genera and their chromosomal numbers are different....without hatcheries tigers are extremely rare in the wild.

This fish looks very much like many of the browns I have caught in the upper Missouri.....they virtually never have red spots and their spotting can be extremely heavy and irregular.....some examples.....















Brian


----------



## north slope

Where is Peanut Butter and Honey when you need him? He would straighten this out in a jiffy....;-)


----------



## Springville Shooter

It's a brown, and a darned fine one too.-------SS


----------



## brookieguy1

north slope said:


> Where is Peanut Butter and Honey when you need him? He would straighten this out in a jiffy....;-)


Oh, quit sucking up. He don't know 'nuthin!:mrgreen:


----------



## PBH

spencerD said:


> What's really hard is telling a splake from a brook trout in lakes where both are stocked. The trick I've found is brookies retain the blue halos on their spots, and keep the traditional square tail of a trout. Splake have a forked tail, _no blue halos_. At least, from my experience.





north slope said:


> Where is Peanut Butter and Honey when you need him? He would straighten this out in a jiffy....;-)


I had to go figure out what a calico vs. sand bass was!!

spencer -- don't rely on those blue halos too much. They'll burn you.

I've posted these before. ID them:


----------



## spencerD

I've gone by halos as a good reference, but I agree, they're not set in stone. 

First pic - all splake except for the bottom one. All of those have tails forked deep enough to be splake. Brook trout wouldn't get that forked of a tail.

second pic - brownbow trout is the middle. Top is a bow, bottom is a splake.

third pic - brake trout, I think


----------



## PBH

that cataract is a dead giveaway. 
Interesting that even with no vision, the brownbows were in equivalent shape to the rainbows and splake of the same age.

brake trout were just weird. 

when identifying any fish, multiple characteristics should always be considered. As noted, forked tails, spot patterns, spot colors, spot shape, teeth, shape, stocking history, fins....you have to consider it all.


----------



## Catherder

I never tire of those frankenfish pictures, even though I've seen them multiple times.

Here is a question for you however. Apparently, a notable internet forum member recently mistakenly kept a cutt in a fishery where it was C&R for cutts. His claim was that he couldn't tell between it and a bow. Many of us that have caught lots of cutts (and bows) in our lifetimes can quickly tell the difference at a glance based on coloration, shape, spotting, etc, but it also is clear that many "occasional" anglers cannot. It is also complicated by the fact that some "cutt" traits can be seen in certain bows as well. For instance the "throat slash" coloration is quite frequently seen in fish that are obviously rainbows. I'm of the opinion that a *novice *angler inexperienced with coloration and shape of the 2 species can reliably best tell the difference between cutts and bows by noting the color of the pelvic and anal fins. Cutts always have orange pelvic and anal fins, bows have pink or gray, often with white tips. It seems like the other traits commonly used, while accurate most of the time, have just enough exceptions to potentially get the novice in trouble. Can you think of any more *easy *traits that are reliable every time?

RE"I had to go figure out what a calico vs. sand bass was!!"

So Cal or Mexico? How was the fishing?


----------



## PBH

Cath -- for the novice that cannot tell, the answer is simple: release the fish!! Err on the side of caution!


but, an easy way to tell a rainbow vs a cutthroat is basibranchial teeth (back of the tongue). Rainbow trout typically do not have these teeth. Cutts typically do. Easy peasy. Lemon squeezy.

Actually -- the above isn't 100% either -- just another thing to look for in combination with everything else.

the regulations are written with "cutthroat trout markings" for a reason. It's not saying 'release cutthroat'. It's saying 'release trout with cutthroat characteristics'. This is intentional, because there can be confusion when identifying rainbows vs cutts. If the fish has any cutt characteristics, release it.




sitting on Shelter Island, watching others fish, thinking to myself: why did I leave the boat at home? Answer: wife and kids wanted to go to Sea World instead....


----------



## PBH

From: Trout and Salmon of North America, Robert Behnke:



Robert Behnke said:


> In pure populations of cutthroat trout, at least 90 percent of specimens have basibranchial teeth...
> In rainbow trout, the occurrence of basibranchial teeth is sporadic; when these teeth are present in a population of rainbow trout, it is extremely rare to find them in more than 10 percent of specimens. Thus the presence or absence of basibranchial teeth is not an absolute trait for distinguishing all cutthroat trout from all rainbow trout.
> ...
> *A characteristic that works well* to identify inland subspecies of cutthroat trout (but not coastal cutthroat trout) from all forms of rainbow trout and from cutthroat x rainbow trout hybrids is the presence or absence of spots on the top of the head. In the rainbow trout and hybrids, the top of th ehead is heavily spotted. Inland subspecies of cutthroat trout have no spots or only minute black specks on the top of the head.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> Cath -- for the novice that cannot tell, the answer is simple: release the fish!! Err on the side of caution!


Clearly true. I hope this fellow learned a lesson. Cautionary tale for others too.

RE "but, an easy way to tell a rainbow vs a cutthroat is basibranchial teeth (back of the tongue). Rainbow trout typically do not have these teeth. Cutts typically do. Easy peasy. Lemon squeezy.

Actually -- the above isn't 100% either -- just another thing to look for in combination with everything else."

See what I mean? Besides how many "Joe six packs" even know what basibranchial teeth are, could find them in a thrashing fish, let alone pronounce it?

RE"*A characteristic that works well* to identify inland subspecies of cutthroat trout (but not coastal cutthroat trout) from all forms of rainbow trout and from cutthroat x rainbow trout hybrids is the presence or absence of spots on the top of the head. In the rainbow trout and hybrids, the top of the head is heavily spotted. Inland subspecies of cutthroat trout have no spots or only minute black specks on the top of the head."

That is a good one too, but those stupid minute specks do seem to show up sometimes.

I could be wrong, but I've never caught a bow that has orange fins yet nor seen a pure cutt that has pink or gray pelvic or anal fins. Of course even then, the angler has to put in the effort to educate himself what pelvic or anal fins are.

A lot of guys talk about spotting for ID of cutt subspecies. Here are a series of pics of Bear Lake cutts caught at the Berry on the same day, within a couple hours time. There is no debate they are government issue BL cutts except for the last pic, which is a rainbow. Look at the dramatic spotting variation among the same strain and subspecies of fish.

I jokingly called this one O. mykiss selerinis. (Quick, without looking, what is o. mykiss selerinis?)



Slightly more spots.



A few more.





To heavily spotted.







All the same strain and subspecies.

Here is a bow.



RE"
sitting on Shelter Island, watching others fish, thinking to myself: why did I leave the boat at home? Answer: wife and kids wanted to go to Sea World"

Been there. :-(


----------



## PBH

I know what seleniri is -- but it's a clarki. I have no idea what a mykiss selerini is. You got me.


----------



## Catherder

PBH said:


> I know what seleniri is -- but it's a clarki. I have no idea what a mykiss selerini is. You got me.


Oooops, my bad!  O. clarkii selerinis was what I meant to say. I should have proofread my facts better. Hope my fish ID is better than my posting. ;-)


----------



## swbuckmaster

Lol If you real in a fish that fights like a wet sock at the berry you can bet its a cutthroat.


----------



## Catherder

swbuckmaster said:


> Lol If you real in a fish that fights like a wet sock at the berry you can bet its a cutthroat.


Perhaps, but I don't think I'd use that alone to ID a cutt vs a bow. Some finless freddie bows right out of the hatchery truck don't fight much harder than Strawberry cutts. It usually takes them a while before they give you a good tussle.


----------



## Springville Shooter

I consider myself a casual fisherman and I have never had any problems identifying fish in Utah, usually before they are in hand. I can do the same thing with wild Steelhead Vs hatchery fish......no doubt about it.-------SS


----------



## swbuckmaster

Springville Shooter said:


> I consider myself a casual fisherman and I have never had any problems identifying fish in Utah, usually before they are in hand. I can do the same thing with wild Steelhead Vs hatchery fish......no doubt about it.-------SS


I agree


----------



## DocEsox

Oncorhynchus clarki seleniris.....Paiute cutthroat trout characterized by the total absence of spotting on the body. Native only to Silver King Creek in California. Would love to be able to catch one.....


----------



## Catherder

DocEsox said:


> Oncorhynchus clarki seleniris.....Paiute cutthroat trout characterized by the total absence of spotting on the body. Native only to Silver King Creek in California. Would love to be able to catch one.....


Yeah, me too. Its an item on my bucket list to catch all the living cutt subspecies and a bull trout before the end. Until then, the nearly unspotted BL cutts will have to do. ;-)


----------



## RYsenTrout

Catherder said:


> Yeah, me too. Its an item on my bucket list to catch all the living cutt subspecies and a bull trout before the end. Until then, the nearly unspotted BL cutts will have to do. ;-)


I am curious how many cutt subspecies have you caught so far? I believe there are 13, but could be wrong.


----------



## Catherder

Springville Shooter said:


> I consider myself a casual fisherman and I have never had any problems identifying fish in Utah, usually before they are in hand. I can do the same thing with wild Steelhead Vs hatchery fish......no doubt about it.-------SS


I agree too, but it seems to be a problem with many anglers. One would expect it with some dude that fishes once a year as a social occasion, but the example I mentioned previously was someone who fishes regularly, whom I would have thought wouldn't have made this mistake. I've seen others who fish regularly also mess this up on occasion. That is why I brought up the question about easy "novice level" ID traits for cutts vs bows like looking if the fins are orange or not.

Heck, it isn't just trout. I once almost got into a fight once at Jordanelle when some dude reeled in a very generic looking smallie and got all excited because he was certain it was a "largemouth". He wasn't thrilled when I politely pointed out the differences. (Yes, there are indeed LMB in Jordanelle, and I've caught many, but this particular fish wasn't one of them)


----------



## Catherder

RYsenTrout said:


> I am curious how many cutt subspecies have you caught so far? I believe there are 13, but could be wrong.


I'm at work so I'm doing this from memory, but here is my score thus far. I think it is 13.

Caught (5); Yellowstone, Snake river finespotted, Bonneville, Colorado river, Greenback.

Not caught (6); Lahontan, Westslope, Paiute, Rio grande, Coastal, Humboldt,

Extinct; yellowfin, Alvord

Did I miss any?


----------



## Daisy

RYsenTrout said:


> I am curious how many cutt subspecies have you caught so far? I believe there are 13, but could be wrong.


12 subspecies, but I think that is up to debate depending on the Alvord.

Here are a couple of resources:

http://anglerslifelist.com/page/fish

http://scarles.org/blog/


----------



## RYsenTrout

Catherder said:


> I'm at work so I'm doing this from memory, but here is my score thus far. I think it is 13.
> 
> Caught (5); Yellowstone, Snake river finespotted, Bonneville, Colorado river, Greenback.
> 
> Not caught (6); Lahontan, Westslope, Paiute, Rio grande, Coastal, Humboldt,
> 
> Extinct; yellowfin, Alvord
> 
> Did I miss any?


Whitehorse Basin. Although I think some consider it a Lahontan. I just got this book in the mail I am really enjoying it:

http://www.amazon.com/Cutthroat-Native-Trout-Patrick-Trotter/dp/0520254589


----------



## DocEsox

Catherder.....according to Behnke...before he recently passed away....there are 13 subspecies of cutthroat and you named them as he did. Until 2008 the Humboldt cutthroat and the Whitehorse (and Willow Creek) cutthroat were considered undescribed subspecies (so at that time there would have been 14). But in Behnke's article with Trotter, they described the Coyote Basin (which comprise Whitehorse and Willow Creeks) cutthroat to be included with the Humboldt cutthroat with the new name Oncorhynchus clarki humboldtensis. This decreased the recognized subspecies to the 13 you name....I would love to get them all too. So far I've caught Yellowstone, Westslope, Lahontan, Bonneville and Coastal. The tough one is Pauite as you can't fish waters where they live legally. Even though the Alvord is considered extinct as to genotype. There is a single creek that occasionally spits out some cutts which phenotypical match the Alvord....although they are not genetically pure. Good luck on getting them all....


Brian


----------



## TEX-O-BOB

Tiger.


----------



## Catherder

DocEsox said:


> The tough one is Pauite as you can't fish waters where they live legally.


I think you are right about Silver King creek but there have been small populations established elsewhere. From Behnke (Trout and Salmon of North America);

"In addition to the 1946 transplant of Paiute trout to Southern California, a few other populations have been established in small isolated steams outside of the Silver King Creek drainage."

These fish may also be off limits, but some may be available for C&R fishing. I've heard it both ways and am not sure. They apparently are currently listed as threatened, which usually allows for limited C&R fishing.


----------



## Springville Shooter

The wild ones are purdy.--------SS


----------

