# Modern Day Tactics going too far?



## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I have always wondered what everyone has thought of using radios to help them hunt. One guy sits across a valley with a spotting scope, while telling another hunter exactley where the deer/elk are located and direction they are heading/feeding. This way the hunter can position himself for an excellent opportnity, be set up knowing where the animals are going to be and heading. So my question is do you consider this ethical? Pushing the limits on ethics? Perfectly ethical and fair chase. 

There is nothing in the proclamation about this and is perfectly leagal. It kind of is not my style and if I did this it may take away from the overall experience, just wondering everyone elses thoughts?


----------



## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I am all for them. I think that it does help in a big way with communications with the person doing the sneak but they are still a far cry from the senses that those critters have that we are persuing. 

I often turn mine to scan and listen to others as they put sneaks on different animals. I am yet to hear someone kill an animal on an archery stalk. I heard a pearson who was guiding say, "Oh, he busted you and is gone", a few times this past Saturday. I don't have any Idea where they were but it was fun listening to them perform their stalk and as always the buckie got away.


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Im all for them. we use them to find out what are friends are doing and to cheack up on each other to make shure we all ok. we will use them to help guide some body in on a buck that dont mean they will kill him.We all so listen to other people talk on them. Likeon saterday morning a little kid come over the radio telling his dad he had a big bull elk infront of him and asking if he could kill it and the dad said no take a pic of it with your phone and stay there he was on his way over. Then we heard some other guys talking about bumping a crap load of elk.We use ear peace. 

BTW hogan how did you do on the opner?


----------



## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

checking up on one another is fine, but to actually guide someone in via radio to an animal? :? c-mon!?!? what happened to the stalk?

thats bs...


----------



## MudInBlood (Apr 10, 2008)

I could be wrong, and I dont have time to look it up, but if you use a radio to guide a person on a stalk on an animal doesn't that disqualify you from putting your animal in Pope and Young books? Does anyone know?


----------



## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I have not been out yet, waiting for the weekend warriors to get er done. It is a long hunt, there is time.


----------



## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I think they're fine... it would be the same as you standing on a ridge and giving your buddy hand signals to walk them into the bucks. This radio thing is just a bit more of an instant communication instead of having to stop and look up to see which way your buddy is waving you. I agree that its a good method to check up on others in your party and honestly, a friend of mine and I used text messaging to let each other know what was going on with a big bunch of bucks we were trying to ambush. Radios are to stalking what compounds are to the archery hunter. Just another modern technology to aid in the pursuit of the animal and it really doesn't give you an unfair advantage.... heck, if you know an animals escape routes then sometimes not having a radio works in your favor when the guys with earbuds bump the animals in your direction. 8)


----------



## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

MudInBlood said:


> I could be wrong, and I dont have time to look it up, but if you use a radio to guide a person on a stalk on an animal doesn't that disqualify you from putting your animal in Pope and Young books? Does anyone know?


you may be right, but it shouldnt matter if its P&Y, B&C or Longhunter Society... :?


----------



## Mountain Time (Sep 24, 2007)

I took this directly from the Pope and Young Webpage.

The Rules of Fair Chase

The term "Fair Chase" shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:

-Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice. 
-From any power vehicle or power boat. 
-By "jacklighting" or shining at night. 
-By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons. 
-While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures. 
-By the use of any power vehicle or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground. 
-*By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game*, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached. 
-Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.

The fair chase concept does, however, extend beyond the hunt itself; it is an attitude and a way of life based in a deep-seated respect for wildlife, for the environment, and for other individuals who share the bounty of this vast continent's natural

http://www.pope-young.org/bowhunting_fairchase.asp

So if you do use radios, cell phones, etc.....then they won't allow whatever game you take while doing so to be entered into the book. There have been times that we have used radios and other times that we haven't. Sometimes there useful other times there not. No question where P&Y stands on the issue.........


----------



## scott_rn (Sep 11, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> Radios are to stalking what compounds are to the archery hunter.


That's what I was thinking. Maybe we should have to choose one or the other - longbow or recurve with radios or compound without :lol:

I've never used radios, but that is probably because I usually hunt by myself - not because I have ethical issues with them.


----------



## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> I think they're fine... it would be the same as you standing on a ridge and giving your buddy hand signals to walk them into the bucks. This radio thing is just a bit more of an instant communication instead of having to stop and look up to see which way your buddy is waving you. I agree that its a good method to check up on others in your party and honestly, a friend of mine and I used text messaging to let each other know what was going on with a big bunch of bucks we were trying to ambush. Radios are to stalking what compounds are to the archery hunter. Just another modern technology to aid in the pursuit of the animal and it really doesn't give you an unfair advantage.... heck, if you know an animals escape routes then sometimes not having a radio works in your favor when the guys with earbuds bump the animals in your direction. 8)


how do you liken a guy standing on a ridge giving hand signals to a guy talking quietly into a mic to a guy wearing a head set, to a compound storing energy :?:


----------



## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Both are silent to an animal??  I just don't see it being that different. Its still guiding a fellow hunter into a deer, whether you're in their ear or using your hands to tell them right, left, 10 more yards, check your wind... whatever. Its not like you're a deciding factor in what the animal is going to do or something, its just giving yourself a "better" chance to get close to the animal by using electronic communication. Like others have said, it certainly doesn't guarantee your shot or kill. And honestly, to me anyway, its no more different than the big dustup over compounds vs recurves. One more way to extend your range and make you more effective than the "old way" of doing things... but still nothing that takes the unpredictability out of the animal element of the hunt. 8) Its just an advancement in technology to aid hunters in the hunt.... inlines vs flintlocks, compounds vs recurves, footsoldier vs duck boats, mojo vs jerk string, radios vs hand signals/solo stalks.... nothing illegal about any of it, just one more way to help guys with certain aspects of hunting that guys have to choose for themselves whether or not to include in their "tactics".


----------



## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

how does that not lessen the hunt then? you didnt beat him on his terms...i meen with the archery up close and personal thing n all?


----------



## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Longgun said:


> how does that not lessen the hunt then? you didnt beat him on his terms...i meen with the archery up close and personal thing n all?


Sure you did.... you still had to have stealth, had to make sure the wind was right, had to make sure your equipment was silenced to the point that the deer didn't know what hit him until it was too late.... The person doing the stalking is still having to creep up on a deer alone (him vs the deer's senses), whether all he hears is the voices in his head reminding him of things he needs to be careful of or its the voice of a buddy on the ridge above watching it all unfold. You can tell a guy every little twitch of the environment and the deer he's chasing, but you can't make him successful. There are still a million things that can go wrong even if you know to the inch where the deer is at every step of the way.


----------



## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Longgun said:


> how do you liken a guy standing on a ridge giving hand signals to a guy talking quietly into a mic to a guy wearing a head set, to a compound storing energy :?:


i was trying to point out that the compound shooter is still 100% alone with the animal. the earpiece enabled hunter has a second/third/fourth ect set of eyes looking out for him an umpteen distance away...


----------



## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Longgun said:


> Longgun said:
> 
> 
> > how do you liken a guy standing on a ridge giving hand signals to a guy talking quietly into a mic to a guy wearing a head set, to a compound storing energy :?:
> ...


Ok, I can see that. So your problem with the situation is that it takes the solo aspect out of the hunt? I guess then it just comes down to what guys are willing to "allow" on their hunts... and its all an ethical decision each guy has to make when presented with that situation. It doesn't make it right, wrong, or somewhere in between... just another choice we all have to make when it comes to how we hunt. I know for me personally, I don't mind working with other hunters but I'd imagine having somebody in my ear would throw me off, make me less able to focus because I'm trying to follow directions instead of instincts guiding me into bow range. So... I agree that I wouldn't really be into "radio hunting" but I could see why guys would want that technology in their corner.


----------



## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

personal preference as to where someone draws the line i suppose and i was probably outa line when i stated it should be against the law but...i just dont get the get close then get closer thing i guess, especially when a radio is involved but to each their own :wink:

you guys headed back up this weekend?


----------



## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Having used radios in the past, I see some advantage, but not as much as you might think. The "birds eye" view is very different than the guy down in the draw putting the sneak on. The guy in the sky doesn't see the the brush in the way, the rocks that have to be crawled over, or the three does hiding just behind the tree that are going to bust the hunter if he moves another foot to the left. There is an advantage of having different perspectives. We used radios to help a good friend take a very nice bull several years ago. I was the "eyes" trying to push the elk on the shooter. I never did get a clear view of the bull, but the shooter did - his point of view was better and he was able to see things I certainly didn't. Without the radios, the hunt may have had different success. They do make a difference. But the hunter/shooter still has to do their thing.


----------



## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

Longgun said:


> personal preference as to where someone draws the line i suppose and i was probably outa line when i stated it should be against the law but...i just dont get the get close then get closer thing i guess, especially when a radio is involved but to each their own :wink:
> 
> you guys headed back up this weekend?


I hear ya... I am all about getting close but probably won't ever use radios to accomplish it. Garyfish is right I think too... I'd imagine its a lot easier to be up on the hill watching than being down there in the sticky wet grass, humid and hot as a sumo wrestler's diaper trying to be quiet and not slide yourself fifty feet downhill past the deer while still somehow being able to draw your bow, hope he doesn't jump your string, smell you etc. Radios might be nice, but its just one more thing to worry about. :lol: I have enough trouble as it is. About this weekend, probably not going back up where we were (they might) but I'll probably be busy (have my daughter) and I'll try and maybe sneak out for a morning hunt somewhere easier to get to. You getting out at all chasing bucks?


----------



## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

nope not this year, missed the otc tag i had in mind for the northern rifle _(O)_ 
we do have a couple cow tags to fill though.

about this radio subject...consider the dead horse beaten on my end....

good luck fellas and post some pics would ya :wink:


----------



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

I've used them, but they get more in the way than they have ever helped. I wouldn't be one bit sad if someone said that they were illegal or against the rules. I'd be fine with having them be banned.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I use radios to locate other hunters. I haven't been able to use them to get in close to an animal. Last year I had my spotter sit on a ridge 500 yards away and we used hand signals to get me and my client within 20 yards of a record book bull. 

I don't see how radios could be legally 'banned'. People use them to keep track and others in their party, find their way out of a drainage. We will be using Rino's on the Dutton, with the GPS feature we will know where each other is w/o saying a word. It also will help keep is working together on a drainage. I don't see why that should be 'banned', nor do I see how it could be done.


----------



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Though I don't see it happening either, I don't see why it would be so hard as you say. Almost all of hunting leans on the integrity and honesty of the hunter. Like in personal golf games, if you kick it away from the trunk of the tree (yep, that's where my shots end up if things go well  ) it's really just your problem. And I mean "your" as in anybody- not you Pro. I know poaching is the other extreme that is "everyone's problem" but you still hunt with legal weapons, times, clothing, etc. etc. etc. I know many people have complained about the lack of orange over previous rifle hunts over the years. That's a "small", but common problem these days that certainly can affect hunter success and safety. If you say no radio use in pursuit of game, then there's the answer to the question of can you use them. I don't see how it would be so different. Actually, I have encountered an officer once in the field while hunting, and that was on a road while I wasn't hunting. That's not much.

That post about fair chase related to the books pretty well illustrates it. Nope it isn't a law, but it still holds value for those purposes, and I guess I wondered the same thing. If someone claims a books animal do they fill out some form where they swear to having not used electronic equipment and the other terms of fair chase? I assume so. Anyway, like I said, I wouldn't miss them. I think for safety purposes they can be a comfort, if not a lifesaver - though I haven't heard of specific instances of that either.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Rulings on where golf balls lie is different than 'banning two-way radios while in the hills. P&Y/B&C not accepting animals into their PRIVATE club(s) based on THEIR ethical standards, is also different than 'banning' them while in the hills. If you, and I mean you in general, were to 'ban' radios, would you also ban range finders since they give an advantage over those w/o them? How about GPS devices? Where do you draw the line? How do you enforce the 'ban' if it were to be implemented? If you don't mind seeing them 'banned', don't use them, problem solved! Are we going to somehow 'ban' using aerial maps/satellite images? If not, why not? Don't they increase one's odds of putting an animal on the ground? The very thought of 'banning' radios in the hills in inane.


----------



## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

I don't see anything wrong with using radios on the hunt. We use them in my camp. But the moment I see a deer or am stalking up on one, my radio goes off. Nothing like someone hitting the alert button when you are quietly sneaking up on a nice buck, just to watch it bounce off into the timber (speaking from personal experience). Sure there is ear pieces to make it silent, then you just have a wire hanging out that gets snagged on everything. Radios are very useful in guiding someone to a downed animal or to your location if you break a leg or need other assistance.


----------



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh brother. Pro, I'm not saying you can't have radios, I'm saying I wouldn't care if other hunters asked for it to be gone or banned. Radios are quite a different technology over GPS, Range Finders and anything else you can name. Cheating in golf is cheating, and the intent is to keep sporting, well...sporting. Sure there are different levels, but this could be one of them. 

Why would it not seem sporting? Why would those, apparantly arrogant, books folks waste their time being concerned with it as detrimental to fair chase? Because it is another person on the other side. Essentially, it makes it tag team hunting rather than an individual effort. Simple enough. Of course, I wouldn't expect a Mossyback storm trooper to understand the difference between hunting in twenties, and hunting alone. But I wouldn't say something like that because I'm not looking to get into some lame argument. :mrgreen: 

There's some serious sarcasm up there btw. I DO think that radios are a different kind of tool as they have a brain, moving legs, working eyes, ears, and an entire hunter on the other end. Quite different from a range finder and probably more of a benefit than using the old foot putter a few times a game.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I have a pair of radios but I have them to keep in contact with the other people I am with. I don't think its a big deal to have radios to help out, the hunter still has to come through and bag the deer.


----------



## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> Oh brother. Pro, I'm not saying you can't have radios, I'm saying I wouldn't care if other hunters asked for it to be gone or banned. Radios are quite a different technology over GPS, Range Finders and anything else you can name.
> Why would it not seem sporting? Why would those, apparantly arrogant, books folks waste their time being concerned with it as detrimental to fair chase? Because it is another person on the other side. Essentially, it makes it tag team hunting rather than an individual effort. Simple enough. Of course, I wouldn't expect a Mossyback storm trooper to understand the difference between hunting in twenties, and hunting alone. But I wouldn't say something like that because I'm not looking to get into some lame argument. :mrgreen:
> 
> There's some serious sarcasm up there btw. I DO think that radios are a different kind of tool as they have a brain, moving legs, working eyes, ears, and an entire hunter on the other end. Quite different from a range finder and probably more of a benefit than using the old foot putter a few times a game.


So if you think the radios shouldnt be used because they have a brain, moving legs, working eyes, ears, and an entire hunter on the other end. Does that mean you pack your deer out by yourself cause it takes away from the hunt when your partner helps? I just think that its not to much different having your friend right next to you spotting for you and reporting on what he sees.


----------



## wfm (Feb 17, 2008)

I think radios are cool!


----------



## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

How are you going to controll if the hunter or hunters are using there radios when they are in the back counrty or in the hills and the game warden is siting in his truck cheacking people driving by ? They will not be able to stop it. If you dont like it dont use them and dont try to change the way other people hunt.May be we think you should use radios on your hunt. But we are not going to sit here and tell you to use them and we are not going to sit here and bitch about you not using them. That your choice nobody else.If they want to band them then they better band the spoting scopes and binos to. Because you can see that buck five ridges over. So that way you have to Hike over there and see if it a buck and wast your time stalking up on a doe.


----------



## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Illegal in Montana


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

If radios are unethical then so is rifle scopes, red dot scopes, range finders because they increase your odds on the kill more than some silly radio. Using a radio doesnt mean you will bag the animal. What other things can we gripe about?


----------



## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

Yeah, this is weird. I have no problems using communication devices to help each other out. It's pretty fun. I have done it countless times with my big bro and have never felt bad doing so. I guess it ups the odds, but 90%????? Not really. That is just splitting hairs. I don't get it. 

Humans are reasoning predators (borrowed from Nuge). We're smart. We hunt in packs.


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Ah.....ok, I'm coming out of the closet.

I have radios too.


----------



## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

HOGAN said:


> just wondering everyone elses thoughts?


I can understand your concern HOGAN....it kind of bothered me when the compound bow was mass produced, then fish-finder's hit the market hot and heavy, 2-way radio's, cel-phone's, GPS, Google maps. None of which have done me any good btw. Except now I can locate fish and realize I have the wrong gear though... 

I wish I would have had radio's several time's bow hunting...( yes HOGEY, I have flung an arrow or two ) the bro and I missed some great opportunity's because our hand signals didn't work out so well.

I like radio's, it save's us the pain of hearing other hunter's yelling across the valley's and mountain tops, hopefully keeping some peace and quiet for the rest of us...

Technology brother.......might as well get used to it !


----------



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I use them regularly with the ear bud and are a great safety tool; the advantage is mostly lost in the fact that you still don't know exactly where your buddy is, happened on Saturday where I told him that one was coming his way, apparently he was about 200 yards ahead of where I thought and did not ever see the thing (the Rhino would fix that it sounds like). I have not ever found them to be the answer to success, but they do save a lot of time from dinking around trying to find someone who is lost; had that happen several times w/o them but never when we have the radios. I can certainly appreciate those who oppose, but frankly, I don't like the fact that other people smoke or drink alcohol either, yet I am not pushing for them to be banned, as long as those who do do so responsibly and safely, knock yourself out! I get a little timid when it comes to banning things or practices, it is a slippery slope as folks have mentioned, the scope and the range finder are way more useful in hunting success and maybe some folks would like to see them banned. I will have to agree that using binos and hand signals is very similar, radios are just a little more efficient.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wileywapati said:


> Illegal in Montana


Since Ted Turner dwells there, I suspect many nonsensical laws are on the books up there with little/no way to enforce them. :?


----------



## bigpapacow (Nov 15, 2007)

We use rino's a lot and usually just for communication on where everyone is and general strategy. However, there is a particular mountain that we hunt that we specifically use them to guide each other in. It is a blast trying to guide them in on a big buckie and seeing how close they get. It actually paid off for the 1st time Monday morning as I guided my bro in on a 3 pointer that he arrowed. He would have run into it anyway on the path he was on. Where it paid off was in letting him know about the other 15 deer just around the corner that he could not see that were getting antsy and about to blow out of there. He was able to lay low until they calmed down and then he moved up and nailed his buck. Radios are great. To each his own...


----------



## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Show us the pics man!


----------



## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Yeah- pics! pics! 

I love the freaking out about the mere mention of not using radios. Did everyone's wife start posting on their account? Shows how important you actually think it has become IMO. The more ridiculous aspect of it is someone worried about enforcement. Hunters are the enforcement for every rule and the rest is just poaching. I'm not against them, I just think it's lame that everyone is so passionate about keeping them. My brother in law thinks hunters are weak unless they hunt something that can hunt us back. Apparently, we need all the help we can get to knock bambi over. And you can't argue that gear is AS valuable as the benefit of a second person. Not every radio has a brain on the other end, but most do.  

Hunters frame the rules that represent the sport. If we want radios, so be it. Either way, I'm dying to get out!!! I haven't made it out yet, and probably that's why I'm so grumpy. Have nothing to do but gripe here on the forum.


----------



## quakeycrazy (Sep 18, 2007)

Speaking of modern tactics going too far, while chatting with my friends on the bowhunt my friend told me I really needed to get a range finder. Now I am not opposed to using them myself I just don't have one yet, or even others using them, it just got me thinking about how much we rely on technology to hunt. I have often wondered about the Native Americans who didn't have all this crap we do and they still killed enough to survive. Interesting thought though, I hope I haven't relied too much on the newest inventions to be a hunter, I would like to think the call of the wild is very much alive within me.


----------



## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Interesting thread, Hogan.

I've actually thought a lot about this over the past week as far as what would my elders/mentors would have thought about my gear today...if they were still alive, that is.

The ATV...they would have been envious and approving and I'll bet willing to swap their horses for my machine. Let's face it, riding horseback in the mountains is hard work. That's why I quit.

Rangefinder...they would have ridiculed me right out of camp.

GPS...they would have lost all respect for me as a woodsman. However, in my own defense, my primary use of GPS is to locate private property boundaries. In their day, that wasn't an issue.

Cell Phone...the laughter would never stop.

Compound bow w/sights...CHEATING!!!!

Scent eliminator...they were convinced that you had to stink to high hell of rotten apples and urine!

Camo...no end to the laughter here...especially Predator camo which if you really think about it, looks like a clown's costume. They understood that sound is your primary concern on a stalk.

Finally, and I haven't gone here yet...trail cams. What sort of city bred idiot needs a photo to tell him what the land already reveals...tracks, rubs, scrapes, wallows, beds, plant damage, droppings?

In the end, I'm sure their consensus would be that most technology is designed to compensate for a lack of basic woodsmanship and hunter skills. In the end all that is needed is a hunter, his basic weapon and his wits.


----------



## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> In the end, I'm sure their consensus would be that most technology is designed to compensate for a lack of basic woodsmanship and hunter skills. In the end all that is needed is a hunter, his basic weapon and his wits.


Amen brutha! Amen!

I like your elders/mentors.


----------

