# Manti and sheep.



## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Anyone been on the Manti and noticed how many sheep herd there are?
I have been hunting between Hwy 31 and Ephriam/ Joes Valley on Skyline dr. and I think there are at least 10 different herds. I know there has been herders all the time but this years seems like a lot more than usual. 

Not really complaining as I have found plenty of bucks, some not more than 100 yards from the sheep, just either not big enough or couldn't get a shot. 
The elk though seem to be absent. The only elk I have seen is a calf by itself. I haven't really seen any fresh sign either. 
Just wondering if its just me or are there really more sheep than usual.
Oh and I've been chased and nipped at by at least 5 of those stupid white sheep dogs.


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## polarbear (Aug 1, 2011)

Yeah, I could say a lot of things about sheep... none of them nice. It's like having 800 lawnmowers in your hunting spot, except louder and stinkier. Whenever I hunt around sheep I carry bear spray for those dogs.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Range Maggots


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## stevedcarlson (Apr 19, 2011)

Yeah we were down on sky line scouting for elk last Saturday and there were sheep every where and no elk to be found and very little deer in the area. They are usually gone by the time we are up there hunting elk!


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

There are a lot of sheep down there. And there are a lot of different issues with them too. Last year on the manti we spoke to the forest service guy that was in charge of monitoring the grazing in the canyons along the skyline. The sheep were being kept in canyons much longer than they were supposed to, because as the sheepherder put it, "there was still available feed." We even talked to the sheepherder to find out the schedule that they are supposed to adhere to. He should have been out of the drainage we hunted 2 weeks before the opener, and lo and behold, opening day those smelly white critters were still all through the drainage. My opinion is if they are gonna be down there, they ought to at least follow the schedules provided to them by the forest service instead of allowing for blitzkrieg grazing until nothing is left. We still saw deer, but like others said, the elk seem to like to stay as far away as possible from them.


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## JDub17 (Jun 25, 2013)

Anyone know how much the ranchers, cattlemen, and shepherds are paying the forest service to graze? Cows were out everywhere in North Cache...


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## mycoltbug (Jan 21, 2013)

Diamond fork was the same way last night. We had cows all over us the whole day. Really stunk up the area.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

mikevanwilder said:


> Anyone been on the Manti and noticed how many sheep herd there are?
> I have been hunting between Hwy 31 and Ephriam/ Joes Valley on Skyline dr. and I think there are at least 10 different herds. I know there has been herders all the time but this years seems like a lot more than usual.
> 
> Not really complaining as I have found plenty of bucks, some not more than 100 yards from the sheep, just either not big enough or couldn't get a shot.
> ...


I hear ya, those dogs can scare the crap out of you in the dark when they come right on up at ya! On my buddies ML elk hunt last year on the manti, it was a joke how many sheep were in there. We had a big herd of sheep come right through our camp and talk about carpet bombing the area! had to watch your step that's for sure. The herders seem nice tho, wish I spoke spanish so I could ask them where the deer are, I struggled last year finding them.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

JDub17 said:


> Anyone know how much the ranchers, cattlemen, and shepherds are paying the forest service to graze? Cows were out everywhere in North Cache...


From the Forest Service: "The federal grazing fee for 2013 will be $1.35 per head month (HM)...an HM is the occupancy and use of public lands by one cow and her calf, one horse, or five sheep or goats for a month."

So a sheep is costing 27 cents per month. A 50 lb bale of hay is around $5.00, so you could graze a sheep for 18 months on public land for the price of 1 bale of hay. It's no wonder numbers keep rising - there are now around 1000 sheep in the canyon I hunt for elk.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

The only thing I hate more than a sheep... is 2 sheep.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Careful what you wish for. That $5 bale of hay gets passed on to you when you chow down on that burger, or rock that wool hunting gear. As for the "theres still feed", not sure how that is a bad thing? Is it better somehow to let the grass in the high country be covered with snow? It skyline isn't winter range. Lastly, the cows and sheep are in grazing rotation schedules so it is most likely coincidence that they are grouped closer. Lastly, the muzzleloader is approaching, they usually bring the sheep off the opening Sat. down the sheeptrail into manti. I find myslelf watching those collies work those sheep for as long as I can, simply amazing how **** smart those dogs are. BTW, we are killing mutton this weekend to feed our hunting camps this fall, yeah sheep stink, but mutton, cooked in sheep fat in a dutch oven is one of the finest meals ever, so I am more of the GOD BLESS THE SHEEP, much tastier than the deer I most likely won't see!!


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## HighmtnFish (Jun 3, 2010)

One of those "10 herds" of sheep belongs to my family. my family has been running sheep up above Joes Valley for 140+ years. We actually had a homestead on the mountain up there and the government "bought it" from us when they made it a public forest in about 1906. 
There is about 1/3 of the sheep that there was up on the mountain 30 years ago. If there's a place that has been overgrazed it because the herder doesn't know what he is doing or you don't know what over grazing is. If the herder moves or rotates to sheep to a new pasture every 3 weeks or so, there will be plenty of feed for all. And elk are MUCH harder on the land than sheep. 
As far as sheep and hunting goes, I have hunted the muzzleloader hunt the last 10 or 15 years and I have killed 2 deer while gathering sheep to take them off the mountain, they were literally bedded with the sheep. One of the biggest bucks I have ever seen was feeding with the sheep herd during the bow hunt, we weren't able to get a shot at the buck because we spooked the sheep. (That buck had it figured out) I don't believe that sheep bother the deer, maybe the elk but not the deer. 
Most herds can stay on thr mountain until Oct. 1. We have taken the sheep down the weekend before the muzzleloader hunt the last few years because a$$ hole sheep haters have been shooting them. Just because you have a gun doesn't give you the right. 
I certianly hope you have been treating my mountain and my livestock with respect, you had better not be leaving the established roads and trails with your ATV or truck and you **** well had better clean up all your trash and beer cans. ******* hunters cause more damage to the land and ruined more hunts than livestock ever will. Have some respect, that's all I'm asking.


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## HighmtnFish (Jun 3, 2010)

torowy said:


> The only thing I hate more than a sheep... is 2 sheep.


Funny, my father in law runs sheep on the north skyline he has a saying that is similar to yours: "The only thing I hate more than a hunter....is 2 hunters."


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## brookieguy1 (Oct 14, 2008)

HighmtnFish said:


> One of those "10 herds" of sheep belongs to my family. my family has been running sheep up above Joes Valley for 140+ years. We actually had a homestead on the mountain up there and the government "bought it" from us when they made it a public forest in about 1906.
> There is about 1/3 of the sheep that there was up on the mountain 30 years ago. If there's a place that has been overgrazed it because the herder doesn't know what he is doing or you don't know what over grazing is. If the herder moves or rotates to sheep to a new pasture every 3 weeks or so, there will be plenty of feed for all. And elk are MUCH harder on the land than sheep.
> As far as sheep and hunting goes, I have hunted the muzzleloader hunt the last 10 or 15 years and I have killed 2 deer while gathering sheep to take them off the mountain, they were literally bedded with the sheep. One of the biggest bucks I have ever seen was feeding with the sheep herd during the bow hunt, we weren't able to get a shot at the buck because we spooked the sheep. (That buck had it figured out) I don't believe that sheep bother the deer, maybe the elk but not the deer.
> Most herds can stay on thr mountain until Oct. 1. We have taken the sheep down the weekend before the muzzleloader hunt the last few years because a$$ hole sheep haters have been shooting them. Just because you have a gun doesn't give you the right.
> I certianly hope you have been treating my mountain and my livestock with respect, you had better not be leaving the established roads and trails with your ATV or truck and you **** well had better clean up all your trash and beer cans. ******* hunters cause more damage to the land and ruined more hunts than livestock ever will. Have some respect, that's all I'm asking.


Wow Highmtnfish, this is a side of you I haven't yet seen. Never thought much about sheep, but if you like 'em, I don't hate 'em.
And as far as elk are concerned, let the sheep run those silly critters back to the plains where they belong. Mule deer are the majestic side of the hooved family that belong in Utah.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

HighmtnFish said:


> One of those "10 herds" of sheep belongs to my family. my family has been running sheep up above Joes Valley for 140+ years. We actually had a homestead on the mountain up there and the government "bought it" from us when they made it a public forest in about 1906.
> There is about 1/3 of the sheep that there was up on the mountain 30 years ago. If there's a place that has been overgrazed it because the herder doesn't know what he is doing or you don't know what over grazing is. If the herder moves or rotates to sheep to a new pasture every 3 weeks or so, there will be plenty of feed for all. And elk are MUCH harder on the land than sheep.
> As far as sheep and hunting goes, I have hunted the muzzleloader hunt the last 10 or 15 years and I have killed 2 deer while gathering sheep to take them off the mountain, they were literally bedded with the sheep. One of the biggest bucks I have ever seen was feeding with the sheep herd during the bow hunt, we weren't able to get a shot at the buck because we spooked the sheep. (That buck had it figured out) I don't believe that sheep bother the deer, maybe the elk but not the deer.
> Most herds can stay on thr mountain until Oct. 1. We have taken the sheep down the weekend before the muzzleloader hunt the last few years because a$$ hole sheep haters have been shooting them. Just because you have a gun doesn't give you the right.
> I certianly hope you have been treating my mountain and my livestock with respect, you had better not be leaving the established roads and trails with your ATV or truck and you **** well had better clean up all your trash and beer cans. ******* hunters cause more damage to the land and ruined more hunts than livestock ever will. Have some respect, that's all I'm asking.


 Wow I hope this wasn't directed toward me! I never said I had a problem with them as I have been able to locate deer. Just seems like more than the usual. 
I understand its multi purpose land and so I have no qualms about it if they are following the laws. I'm with you on SOME hunters being worse on the land than sheep. I was up on the road that runs to the south of South Tent mtn and out there, there was an area where someone had taken a couple atvs and road all through the trees and tore up the whole area. 
That makes me as mad as ever to see that crap.
Oh and the herders are some of the nicest people I've had the pleasure to meet. I try to talk with them regularly. While scouting I ran into one on a ridge and we talked about elk, deer and sheep, well the best we could understand each other. He was quite helpful as he told me his schedule so I was able to plan my hunt better.
And my wifes uncle runs sheep on the mountain to just don't know which one is his.


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## HighmtnFish (Jun 3, 2010)

mikevanwilder said:


> Wow I hope this wasn't directed toward me! I never said I had a problem with them as I have been able to locate deer. Just seems like more than the usual.
> I understand its multi purpose land and so I have no qualms about it if they are following the laws. I'm with you on SOME hunters being worse on the land than sheep. I was up on the road that runs to the south of South Tent mtn and out there, there was an area where someone had taken a couple atvs and road all through the trees and tore up the whole area.
> That makes me as mad as ever to see that crap.
> Oh and the herders are some of the nicest people I've had the pleasure to meet. I try to talk with them regularly. While scouting I ran into one on a ridge and we talked about elk, deer and sheep, well the best we could understand each other. He was quite helpful as he told me his schedule so I was able to plan my hunt better.
> And my wifes uncle runs sheep on the mountain to just don't know which one is his.


No, it wasn't directed to anyone in particular, just the idiots I see every year hunting from their ATV's and trucks, driving off road and tearing up the countryside, and leaving a huge mess of crap wherever they camp. Then they blame their poor hunt on the livestock or something else. 
Most (not all) of the people that run livestock on the mountain do their best to take care of the land. We are always repairing the roads the best we can, cleaning up garbage around campsites and trying to better the mountain. Without that summer grazing permit, we wouldn't be able to afford the sheep so we do whatever we can to keep the permit.
One thing I have noticed, if you elk hunters are interested, is elk and sheep don't usually mix. If there's a sheep herd in a basin, there won't be any elk.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Let the wolves kill all the sheep.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm all for fair use of public land. And I realize there is value if grazing the mountain forage. But I still hate sheep


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

torowy said:


> I'm all for fair use of public land. And I realize there is value if grazing the mountain forage. But I still hate sheep


Yes this^^^^^^^^ I hate them with a passion.


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## brookie_fish (Dec 18, 2011)

Cattle and sheep have been around longer than you! Nobody respects the land more than those that count on it for a living! its public land and a huge amount of it. 
Move to another canyon, perhaps the elk have done the same???


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

I've seen some very slobbish sheep herders and cattleman in the years I've been hunting. Don't act as if there aren't any. I used to fill my backpack with all the sacks they left on the ground after they dumped their salt. PLus beer cans from the sheepherders. And who can forget all that naked lady art they carve into the aspens. What about all the abandoned sheep corrals? Maybe they should clean up after themselves too.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

I hunt the tops of Manti, the abandoned "corrals", aka the buck pens have been there longer than I have. The Bartons, Nielsons, Frishnechts(I know this is way off on the spelling), and others are doing no one any harm, the grass grows back every year, and the collies are fun to watch. Rarely do the herders bug anything, other than perhaps fresh mtn. air. Do some of these guys a favor, if you see a few strays, stop in and let them know, they might have knowledge you need, but even if not they are just working, they ain't trying to ruin your hunt. Public grazing is a western heritage, we should promote it and defend it. I too hate them big white **** dogs, but I would love to see one go after a coyote. The Manti unit is pretty big, you can find a different spot, perhaps a little further from skyline, you know, off the road?


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm good friends with one of the herder families up there. I don't mind the sheep… it's some of those herding/gaurd dogs I dont like!
//dog//


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

hossblur said:


> Rarely do the herders bug anything, other than perhaps fresh mtn. air.


They take that fresh mountain air, and make it smell exactly like sheep turds! I have hunted the Wasatch for many years and I remember the days when they ran small herds of 100-200 sheep in several of the drainages. The sheep were still smelly, noisy, and generally disgusting when you came upon them, but the smaller herds were not too invasive. They moved around enough that the forest didn't suffer too badly. The game animals were bounced around a little but not a big deal. Well now that there are 1000 sheep in each drainage things are vastly different. The stench is almost overpowering, the sound is enough to keep you awake at night, and the deforestation is appalling. Trash everywhere around the sheep herders' camps, dogs barking all night, herders riding around in the dark spooking any remaining game out of the area. "Go somewhere else" you say? Why should I, the owner of the land, be displaced? And by a guy running a business that would not even be profitable were it not for government assistance? Why should I go elsewhere, while I pay for a state employee to go kill the bears that I own? If your business can't make money without a handout, YOU go elsewhere!!! Why didn't the Forest Service give me lumber at pennies on the dollar when my construction business was struggling? I don't know why, but if I can't make a profit in construction I go out of business.

I can't stand the seniority argument. If a family has been grazing livestock for 140 years that somehow gives them ownership? Well my ancestors have been hunting these hills for a lot longer that a paltry 140 years, what does that buy me? Unlimited hunting privileges?

I have no problem with people running small herds of livestock and rotating the grazing to minimize the impact on the public. But right now the sheep are out of hand. One livestock owner (and half a dozen illegal immigrants) are not a good reason to ruin the outdoors for hundreds of tax paying citizens. It needs to be balanced for everyone's use, not biased 90:10 toward ranchers.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

El Matador said:


> They take that fresh mountain air, and make it smell exactly like sheep turds! I have hunted the Wasatch for many years and I remember the days when they ran small herds of 100-200 sheep in several of the drainages. The sheep were still smelly, noisy, and generally disgusting when you came upon them, but the smaller herds were not too invasive. They moved around enough that the forest didn't suffer too badly. The game animals were bounced around a little but not a big deal. Well now that there are 1000 sheep in each drainage things are vastly different. The stench is almost overpowering, the sound is enough to keep you awake at night, and the deforestation is appalling. Trash everywhere around the sheep herders' camps, dogs barking all night, herders riding around in the dark spooking any remaining game out of the area. "Go somewhere else" you say? Why should I, the owner of the land, be displaced? And by a guy running a business that would not even be profitable were it not for government assistance? Why should I go elsewhere, while I pay for a state employee to go kill the bears that I own? If your business can't make money without a handout, YOU go elsewhere!!! Why didn't the Forest Service give me lumber at pennies on the dollar when my construction business was struggling? I don't know why, but if I can't make a profit in construction I go out of business.
> 
> I can't stand the seniority argument. If a family has been grazing livestock for 140 years that somehow gives them ownership? Well my ancestors have been hunting these hills for a lot longer that a paltry 140 years, what does that buy me? Unlimited hunting privileges?
> 
> I have no problem with people running small herds of livestock and rotating the grazing to minimize the impact on the public. But right now the sheep are out of hand. One livestock owner (and half a dozen illegal immigrants) are not a good reason to ruin the outdoors for hundreds of tax paying citizens. It needs to be balanced for everyone's use, not biased 90:10 toward ranchers.


Great post!!


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Really?? I drywalled for 20 years, and a CONTRACTOR is bitching about illegal immigrants?? HELLO KETTLE!!! SECOND, my brother in law works for the forest service, he does forest inventory, you know what they do with those studies, SELL TIMBER. That 2x4 you just nailed up you think is not government subsidized? How many houses did you frame that weren't loaned money via FREDDY MAC OR FANNIE MAE? Guess that inspector that rolls out doing your framing inspect is out there on his own dime? Sorry, still LAUGHING at a contractor bitching about hiring illegals, THAT IS PRICELESS!!! Read a livestock report, the numbers don't lie. Read a commodity report, they can't give away enough livestock, these guys aint really rolling in it. My buisness isn't subsidized, come on man, I got knocked out of the buisness when it crashed, it did so because the government subsidized TOO MANY PEOPLE, and both you and I PROFITTED A LOT when it was loaning money to everyone with a name, and neither of us refused to do work for people with government backed loans. As for the "environment", unless you didn't work on the benches, or up in one of the valleys, that hole in the ground, surrounded by other holes in the ground PERMANENTLY destroyed the environment, GRASS GROWS BACK, but not when its covered with cement! I hope your hunt is good, but those sheep were there in a LOT BIGGER NUMBERS, 50 yrs ago, and that timeframe was the "golden age" of mule deer hunting. The sheep will be long gone by october, and the wildlife won't MAGICALLY reapear. Contractors not hiring illegals, WOW!!!


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Sorry if I hit a nerve there, Hoss. You really should ease up on the CAPS LOCK though, some people find it QUITE ABRASIVE!!! I'm a remodeling contractor, I don't build new homes on your grass. I have never hired an illegal, although I know there are many of them out there in construction. I have no proof or data, but I would guess that most of the illegals in the trades are being paid minimum wage or better. The only herder I've ever talked to about finances was making $10/day and had to pay for his own food and clothing with that. Might as well have a slave, don't you think? I mentioned illegals somewhat in passing - I would hardly call that "bitching". If you need to grasp so hard to defend the current grazing practices it may be time to step back and look at things a bit more objectively.

Nobody around here wears wool anymore and mutton is not very popular. We shouldn't have to foot the bill to support a business that is no longer viable.


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## Theekillerbee (Jan 8, 2009)

I struggle with the sheep/cattle thing as well. My Great Grandpa was a sheep man. I like lamb, and can tolerate mutton, but there were a lot more sheep up on skyline this year than in years past. I definitely respect the sheep mans grazing rights, but I do think it gets abused. It is cheaper to pay the fine for abusing the land/time/numbers, than it is to buy hay, but that sure doesn't make it right.

The sheep really have an effect on animal numbers. I have a nice little "honey hole" that always has deer in it. I can count on less than 2 fingers the numbers of times I sat there in years past and did not see a deer. This year, for the first time, sheep were there. Guess what? I did not see a single deer in 3 days in my little "honey hole". Coincidence? Perhpas, but I really doubt it. I'm not sure the sheep are solely responsible for this, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't those stinking Peranese sheep dogs! I absolutely despise those things. I'm sure they spook/chase/kill many deer in their little wanderings to "protect" the herd. They storm into our camp in the middle of the night, barking like there is no tomorrow. They have no respect for humans, except for the herder that drags out a bag of ol roy hollering "Blanco". Shoot them for all I care. I don't think they should be allowed on the mountain until they can pass a decency around people test.

One beef I really have with sheep herders is that they don't pay attention to what the sheep do in the evenings. Countless times I see a herd of sheep wandering off their designated area in the evening, only to see the sheep herder there the next morning pushing them back. If he just payed a little attention, he could keep them where they are supposed to be.

There are always bad apples in every barrel, this hunter is a DB with his ATV, this sheep herder leaves trash everywhere...blah blah. We can all make changes to help things be better. We need to make things better, or we all loose in the end.


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## brookieguy1 (Oct 14, 2008)

hossblur said:


> Really?? I drywalled for 20 years, and a CONTRACTOR is bitching about illegal immigrants?? HELLO KETTLE!!! SECOND, my brother in law works for the forest service, he does forest inventory, you know what they do with those studies, SELL TIMBER. That 2x4 you just nailed up you think is not government subsidized? How many houses did you frame that weren't loaned money via FREDDY MAC OR FANNIE MAE? Guess that inspector that rolls out doing your framing inspect is out there on his own dime? Sorry, still LAUGHING at a contractor bitching about hiring illegals, THAT IS PRICELESS!!! Read a livestock report, the numbers don't lie. Read a commodity report, they can't give away enough livestock, these guys aint really rolling in it. My buisness isn't subsidized, come on man, I got knocked out of the buisness when it crashed, it did so because the government subsidized TOO MANY PEOPLE, and both you and I PROFITTED A LOT when it was loaning money to everyone with a name, and neither of us refused to do work for people with government backed loans. As for the "environment", unless you didn't work on the benches, or up in one of the valleys, that hole in the ground, surrounded by other holes in the ground PERMANENTLY destroyed the environment, GRASS GROWS BACK, but not when its covered with cement! I hope your hunt is good, but those sheep were there in a LOT BIGGER NUMBERS, 50 yrs ago, and that timeframe was the "golden age" of mule deer hunting. The sheep will be long gone by october, and the wildlife won't MAGICALLY reapear. Contractors not hiring illegals, WOW!!!


You drywalled for 20 years. Then you know what has infiltrated and destroyed the trade. Illegals state " we take jobs others don't want". Well, drywalling at one time was a respectable and desirable trade for the citizens of America. Then it was slowly but surely taken over by our southern influx and has been alas destroyed. Of course no American wants these jobs now. Our south-of-the border friends will take these jobs for $10.00 per hour, work overtime for no O.T. scale, no insurance, pension or benefits of any kind, and have no beef about it. Americans demand better than that. What really pisses me off is the rat contractor that hires these illegal pukes. They should be imprisoned for such a heiness crime, IMO. They're crushing the American Spirit and destroying the pride of America. As a licensed contractor if you can't make a profit by hiring legal qualified citizens at a decent wage, and provide adequate benefits, then do the right thing and get out of the business.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Back to the real topic; I rode from Scofield to Skyline just tonight and ran into three separate herds of sheep. They must have been a minimum of 250 each and the one must have been 700+ as they stretched along the road for half of a mile. I have not ever seen that many, mind you this is only seeing less than a mile of Skyline and all were within 4 miles of Skyline. 
I actually commented to myself at how much feed was still left, I was surprised that the country was not much more torn up. We still lots of deer just from the road, again not hunting, just a joy ride. I picked up my trail camera and as of a few weeks ago the bulls were still in there. 
I have heard so many stories about the Great Pyrenees, but I have not ever had them give me anything more than a bark from a distance, just the same as any other dog in their yard. We only saw three in the huge heard, but did not see any in the other two groups.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

brookieguy1 said:


> you drywalled for 20 years. Then you know what has infiltrated and destroyed the trade. Illegals state " we take jobs others don't want". Well, drywalling at one time was a respectable and desirable trade for the citizens of america. Then it was slowly but surely taken over by our southern influx and has been alas destroyed. Of course no american wants these jobs now. Our south-of-the border friends will take these jobs for $10.00 per hour, work overtime for no o.t. Scale, no insurance, pension or benefits of any kind, and have no beef about it. Americans demand better than that. What really pisses me off is the rat contractor that hires these illegal pukes. They should be imprisoned for such a heiness crime, imo. They're crushing the american spirit and destroying the pride of america. As a licensed contractor if you can't make a profit by hiring legal qualified citizens at a decent wage, and provide adequate benefits, then do the right thing and get out of the business.


 amen!!


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

As you might have figured out I know, and have family who own sheep. My dad and uncles spent their summers herding Mt. Pleasant and Fairview. In a few weeks I will be eating sheep. I also have friends who have mtn. permits for cattle up in the forks above Manti. There are years both cattlemen and sheepmen make a lot of money. The last few are pretty **** tough, most of the midwest and southwest have no feed, the animals are pretty much given away, crashing prices. One of the cattlemen I am friends with, who lets pretty much all of manti hunt his personal ground is starting to look at moving his entire operation due to feed prices. The grass on that mtn. will grow back next year. People that think it is overgrazed don't understand plants. I don't like the southern herders any more than anyone, but having said that I aint moving up there and do that for $700 a month. Remember, in as much as the industry is subsidized, its prices are also controlled by the department of ag.. I love that country, spent the last 37 years(since I was 3) hunting it, fishing it, riding around on it, I don't want to see bad happen to it, but the sheep ain't hurting it, and lets be honest, the deer hunting has crashed down there for over 20 years. The elk was great(until the DWR over tagged it). The honest truth is the focus on ATV's in Sanpete has done far more permanent damage than any herd of sheep will/can do. Good luck to you guys, hopefully your enjoying the hunting, I know I will, and a few sheep doesn't change that.


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## HighmtnFish (Jun 3, 2010)

Huge29 said:


> Back to the real topic; I rode from Scofield to Skyline just tonight and ran into three separate herds of sheep. They must have been a minimum of 250 each and the one must have been 700+ as they stretched along the road for half of a mile. I have not ever seen that many, mind you this is only seeing less than a mile of Skyline and all were within 4 miles of Skyline.
> I actually commented to myself at how much feed was still left, I was surprised that the country was not much more torn up. We still lots of deer just from the road, again not hunting, just a joy ride. I picked up my trail camera and as of a few weeks ago the bulls were still in there.


All three herds probably come from the same operation. My father in law (and his cousin) run 3 herds on 3 different allotments between Schofield and the north skyline, it covers most of the fish creek basin. They have about 1500 sheep total up there this year. If the hreders do a good job of rotating those sheep through the pastures then the sheep don't tear up the country too much and they also leave plenty of feed. The livestock are tougher on the mountains during drought years.
From the 1920's to the 1950's there was at least twice as many sheep and cows on the Manti as there is now. They would feed the grass down to the bear ground and when the herders would trail the herds home you could see the clouds of dust billow up from town, the old timers said the dust looked like smoke from a forest fire. By all accounts there was probably twice as many deer on the Manti back then as well. Then there was a bunch of floods and land slides in the 50's that washed tons of sediment into the valley because the sheep and cattle had grazed off all the forage that was holding the soil in place. There are pictures of boulders 6 or 8 feet tall on Main Street in Mt. Pleasant from one of these floods. The Forest Service had dug a bunch of terraces into the mountain to hold it in place. They reseeded a bunch of areas, and cut way down on grazing to make sure that they never have problems like that again. Now if a herd of sheep overgrazes an area the Forest Service can and will pull the grazing permit. There should be no area on the mountain that is overgrazed. If there is, those sheep probably won't be there next year. 
The mountain is not abused by the livestock, at least not like it was. The sheep do eat up a lot of the underbrush and open up the forest allowing young trees to grow healthy. Clearing out the understory helps prevent forest fires as well.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

HighmtnFish said:


> All three herds probably come from the same operation. My father in law (and his cousin) run 3 herds on 3 different allotments between Schofield and the north skyline, it covers most of the fish creek basin. They have about 1500 sheep total up there this year.


Maybe it is your guys. I thought the largest group had Pete Stamatakis' brand out of Price, but I am not sure. The herder on the larger group was a Peruvian fellar from the looks of him, he did not want to chat, not even in Spanish... I am with you on the grazing. I think a lot of people blaming things on sheep, not that anyone here has, but i hear it often in the field, are mainly people of lesser intellect who need to blame the decline on something and the sheep seem to be the easiest contributor, even though they have been there for decades, like you said. Anyone who has half of a brain, makes the sheepherder their best friend if you want the insider info. I would have, but since I did not draw a tag...


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Well I'm still going to be up there hunting, sheep or no sheep. I have found a ton of bucks. Like every deer I see has been a buck. I bet out of the 50 of so deer I've seen on skyline only 2 have been does. I seen at least 3 deer that would score in the 175-180" range. 
Sad thing is I've got my eye on a good sized 3 point that I've been after since a week before the hunt. I just can't seem to close the deal on him, very smart this one.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

HighmtnFish said:


> One thing I have noticed, if you elk hunters are interested, is elk and sheep don't usually mix. If there's a sheep herd in a basin, there won't be any elk.


Bingo! I had a little gem of a canyon picked out before the hunt. For weeks I never had one sheep show up on my cams and had elk every single day. Since the day after the hunt started there's been sheep there every day. And the elk...gone! I thought they were supposed to rotate which canyon they feed in but they haven't left once the past week. It be cool if it was posted somewhere (online perhaps) the grazing schedule for different canyons each day.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I know there are less sheep than there used to be. You guy must be getting out more. the seasons is shorter to. it used go from the june 1st to 0ct 31st now june 25th to oct 1st


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## Tylert (Aug 6, 2008)

I was hunting in the horseshoe area for the last 5 days. A lot of sheep on the top but nothing in the area's I was hunting. It was great. Tons of elk this year and didn't see anyone else in 5 days. Loving this new draw system.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

There are only so many permits in an area, find out who owns the permit, give them a call and ask them what their rotation plan is so you don't have the herd show up and screw your scouting. Ranchers spend the summer on the mtn, they might know something you want to know, and you might be able to help them spot strays or dead.


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