# Fairly new to muzzleloaders - load recommendations?



## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

I say "fairly new" because I have a Remington Genesis I bought for $100 about 10 years ago. I've only shot it maybe 5 or 6 times total. But, when you don't draw a rifle deer tag, you weigh your remaining options. I decided it was time to bust it out of the safe and get serious about hunting with it this year.

I've been doing quite a bit of research but have yet to take it to the range with my new set up and was hoping you muzzleloader hunting vets might provide some insight. My "new set up" includes a fixed 4x scope I just put on and a new ramrod and jag (both from Spinjag) to replace my flimsy stock one.

Now, I've already got some Winchester Triple 7 primers and what I believe are 50gr T7 magnum pellets and a few 295gr Powerbelts. I recall those shooting okay but haven't tried that setup since I got the scope on there. I've heard very mixed things about both the pellets and the Powerbelts. I also have some ancient Pyrodex for what that's worth (probably 20+ years old).

I'm thinking of ditching this setup altogether and starting over from scratch. I bought all that stuff along with the rifle when I was 18 and didn't really know much about muzzleloaders, especially inlines.

So, that draws me to my current predicament - working up a new load I can feel confident using on the coming deer hunt, ideally out to 200 yards. Recently, I've read a lot about Blackhorn 209. A couple questions about that - 1) Is it as great as they say it is? 2) Do I need a special breech plug to use it? 3) I've heard availability is sometimes an issue. Is there anywhere in particular that normally has it in stock?

As far as bullet selection goes, I'm leaning towards buying some Barnes 300gr Expander MZ's and trying those out. I've also heard good things about lighter grain Hornady XTP bullets.

In conclusion, I'd love to hear each of your recommendations as far as what you use and what you might recommend. For those unfamiliar with my gun, it's a Remington Genesis 28" barrel. It has a 1:28" twist. I may run up to the range Friday and hopefully at least sight my scope in and get an idea of what my gun likes.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

Hornady 240 XTP , 3 Pyrodex pellets, Remington Clean bore primers for deer. 300 XTP elk.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

I don't spend the extra money on anything labeled as muzzle loader for bullets or primers. Regular 209 shotgun primers work just fine in a muzzle loader, might have to try a standard and mag primer to see what shoots best out of your rifle. The Hornady XTP line of pistol bullets seem to shot great and have no trouble taking down an elk.

If you want to start over completely I would recommend checking out the Black Horn BH 209 powder as its some of the fastest and cleanest burning powder out there.

I hunt both deer and elk with my muzzy so my current load is a do it all elk load and consists for 110 grains of BH209, CCI mag primer and 300 grain .45 Hornady XTP in a harvester sabot.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

muddydogs said:


> I hunt both deer and elk with my muzzy so my current load is a do it all elk load and consists for 110 grains of BH209, CCI mag primer and 300 grain .45 Hornady XTP in a harvester sabot.


This is exactly what I'm thinking as far as my load goes. Do you hunt with a scope? I plan on heading up to the range on Friday to get my new scope sighted in. Do you sight in at a 25 yards like you'd do with a rifle and then move out to 100 yards or what is the best practice with a muzzleloader?


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Yep I started out with a 1x scope and last year after they lifted the 1x restriction I took the 3x9 off the 7mm and put it on the muzzy then upgraded the 7mm scope. I don't generally mess around with bore sighting a scope so I start out at 25 yards to get it on paper then move to 100.

Take whatever bore cleaner your going to use, I use M-Pro 7 for the BH209, and a few patches so you can clean the bore every few shots. I find I can get around 5 shots out of my rifle before it gets hard to load and needs a quick wet patching. After I get the scope close at 100 yards I will give the bore a couple wet patches before fine tuning the scope adjustment. When I do my wet patch cleaning between shots I run one wet patch down the bore then 2 to 3 dry patches or dry patch until the bore is dry, I'm not looking for clean but just enough to remove the major crud build up.I always plan at least one more sight in time before the hunt so I can check the zero with a good clean and cold bore.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

Thanks a bunch for the response. That's some great info. I went to Cabela's last night and picked up a whole cart full of stuff for the ML. I'm going to try the Blackhorn 209 out. I bought some Hornady SST 300gr bullets to try out, although I will probably just use those for practice and to get my gun sighted in. I will look for some XTP's or Barnes bullets when I do the final sight in and probably use those as my main hunting bullets. I'm going to hit the range tomorrow morning and see how it all goes.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

You will benefit from a new breech plug when using BH 209 powder. 
I shoot BH 209 and I weigh it on a powder scale for accuracy. 70 gr. By weight equals 100 gr. By volume. 
I shoot the .452 Hornady XTP 300 gr. And it is incredibly accurate out of my muzzy. It also hits like a sledge hammer. I would not overpay for Barnes unless you can't get the XTP to shoot. 
Just remember if you use the BH 209 powder you need to shoot a really "hot" 209 shotgun primer. I use magnum CCI primers. 

Good luck!


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

I made it out to the range yesterday morning with my new setup. I took 1 shot at 25 yards, adjusted it, and blew a hole through the bullseye with my second. I then moved to the 100 yard range using the same 100gr of Blackhorn 209 with 300gr Hornady SST's and shot a 1/2" group. I am completely blown away by how well my gun shot. The only issue I had was a few primers that were stuck a little off center and wouldn't ignite the first time. Not sure what to do about that, but overall extremely pleased!

I will likely head back to the range before the season starts with some 300gr Hornady XTP's and see how that does. I'm thinking for my "final" sight in, I will sight my scope in 3" high at 100 yards and hope that will get me in the ballpark approaching 200 yards. That will be my absolute maximum range anyway.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Which primers did you end up using?

I do not know anything about your muzzy but I would recommend trying different primers as they all seem to be different lengths and or having your gun looked at. The breech plugs actually align the primer so I am not sure what you mean by it being off center??

Great shooting tho!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I think that he means that the firing pin isn't hitting in the direct center. 

My TC Triumph has never hit the primer in the direct center and is just a little off. But I have never had some in the center and some off of it. 

I would think that it is the breach plug or the primers not fitting properly that is causing the firing pin to hit them differently.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

Another cause of the primers not firing could be a filthy firing pin housing. Were you getting a lot of blowback? If you are getting a lot of blowback, and didn't clean the firing pin housing properly it could be all gunked up. If the firing pin doesn't hit the primer hard enough, it won't go off. 

I would say clean the firing pin housing good, and then check your headspace. See if that resolves the issue with primers not firing.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I had multiple misfires in a controlled setting like the range, I would be concerned and figure that issue out asap. The good news, there are a lot of guys smarter than I here that can help get your issues figured out. Do you have any pictures of primers that didn't fire?


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

silentstalker said:


> Which primers did you end up using?
> 
> I do not know anything about your muzzy but I would recommend trying different primers as they all seem to be different lengths and or having your gun looked at. The breech plugs actually align the primer so I am not sure what you mean by it being off center??
> 
> Great shooting tho!


I went and bought both Winchester W209 and Federal 209A primers to try out. The Winchester primers were reliable for the most part. 3/4 of them went off with the first trigger pull. The one that didn't was hit 3 times before it finally went off. I had to pull it out and place it in a new position around the breech plug before it finally went off.

I fired one of the Federal primers to clear the barrel after one of my shots. It fired but was jammed in there pretty tight. Strange.

My gun has a little bit of a different setup. It has something they call a "torch cam" which is basically a pivoting block that you open to expose the breech plug. Close tight and it's ready to fire. It houses the "firing pin" which is struck by an external hammer you pull back. I'm wondering if the alignment of the block is just a little off. It could also possibly be the pin not striking the primer hard enough. In either scenario, I'm not sure how to fix it. It was reliable for the most part as I mentioned but I don't want a hangup like that when I shoot at a deer in the field.

Here is a short video I found that briefly shows the block I'm talking about.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

justismi28 said:


> Another cause of the primers not firing could be a filthy firing pin housing. Were you getting a lot of blowback? If you are getting a lot of blowback, and didn't clean the firing pin housing properly it could be all gunked up. If the firing pin doesn't hit the primer hard enough, it won't go off.
> 
> I would say clean the firing pin housing good, and then check your headspace. See if that resolves the issue with primers not firing.
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else, but if I had multiple misfires in a controlled setting like the range, I would be concerned and figure that issue out asap. The good news, there are a lot of guys smarter than I here that can help get your issues figured out. Do you have any pictures of primers that didn't fire?


I don't unfortunately. That is a good point, I've never taken the block apart that houses the firing pin since I've owned it (not that I've shot much at all). I didn't notice any blowback. I wiped around the bottom of the scope with a patch and there was no residue on it whatsoever. The breech plug was completely fouled on the front 1/3 but pretty clean beyond that, so it seems it did a good job of keeping everything in the barrel.

I'll have to pull that block apart and try to clean the pin off good and see if that helps. If it happens again next time I go to the range, I'll take a pic or two. It does seem there was a pretty discernible difference in depth on the holes the firing pin would punch on the ones that went off vs the ones that didn't.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

I shoot CCI 209 M's out of my Traditions Vortek Striker Fire and Win 209's out of an old Knight .54 rifle and never had a primer failure. I hunt with 3 other guys that shoot one form of 209 or the other and they have never had a problem getting one to go off. If your getting light strikes and failures to ignite I would say its something with your rifle and is not right at all. There's enough to worry about with a muzzy and the 209 going off shouldn't be one of them.
I wounder if the 209 is setting to deep in the hole and the firing pin isn't hitting the 209 hard enough? I remember reading someplace were guys are using rubber O rings around the 209 to raise it up a little and also seal the primer better. Maybe a new breach plug is in order.
Personally I want the hottest ignition I can get with my muzzy so I always try CCI 209 M primers first, if I can't get a load worked out or I'm getting a lot of blow back around the primer then I switch to a milder primer which was the case with my old Knight. The Knight would shoot CCI 209 M's just fine but the blow back around the primer was heavy, switching to the Win 209 reduced the blow back significantly and she still shoots good.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm betting on a weak firing pin spring or some kind of obstruction around the firing pin. 

But I have seen it before when the dent in the primer should of been enough to set it off but it didn't. It just takes a while to figure it out where you shouldn't have any problems.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

muddydogs said:


> Personally I want the hottest ignition I can get with my muzzy so I always try CCI 209 M primers first, if I can't get a load worked out or I'm getting a lot of blow back around the primer then I switch to a milder primer which was the case with my old Knight.


What powder to you use? the dreaded "Crud Ring" was tracked down to too hot of primers in muzzleloaders. That was the reason Remington came out with the Kleanbore Muzzleloader primers which solved that particular problem.

I've never had an ignition issue with Remington Muzzleloading primers. I do recognize they are not recommended with BH209 (which I dont use).

-DallanC


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

Critter said:


> I'm betting on a weak firing pin spring or some kind of obstruction around the firing pin.
> 
> But I have seen it before when the dent in the primer should of been enough to set it off but it didn't. It just takes a while to figure it out where you shouldn't have any problems.


This is what I'm thinking too. I pulled it completely apart yesterday and took a look inside. The firing pin, spring and housing were a little dirty but didn't look that bad to me. I let them all soak in a little Break Free CLP for an hour or so and wiped them down good, then sprayed some Rem Oil in there before I put it all back together. I also cleaned and sprayed the spring that connects to the hammer. It had a little gunk on it but same thing, not too bad. Hopefully that helps. If that doesn't do the trick, I might have to try the CCI primers and see if that makes a difference.


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

.530 round ball, 0.010" patch lubed with moose snot, on top of 100 gr. of FFF KIK black powder. That's my load. ;-)


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

I went and picked up a box of .452 Hornady XTP 300gr bullets and some Harvester Crush Rib sabots. I'm excited to head up to the range and try this combo out. If all goes well this is likely what I'll be hunting with. I also bought some CCI primers to try, although I realized that Blackhorn recommends the CCI 209M primers and I bought just the regular kind. Whoops


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

Update: I took my new load up to the range on Saturday and was yet again blown away by the results. I originally sighted my scope in with 300gr Hornady SST bullets but did research after the fact and all signs seemed to point towards Hornady XTP bullets. I took those up to see how they'd shoot comparatively and honestly I couldn't be happier.

So here's the load I worked up: 100 grains of Blackhorn 209, 300gr Hornady XTP bullets, Harvester Crush Rib sabots, CCI primers (not the magnum kind but they shot great). As previously mentioned, this proved to be a deadly combo. It took about 3 shots to get my new bullets sighted in right where I wanted them. 3" high at 100 yards. With this load I figure I can pretty well aim right where I want to hit from 0-170 yards.

I was up at the Bountiful Lion's Club and after I had it sighted in at 100 yards, I took a couple shots at 200 yards just to see what would happen. I was feeling pretty confident I would at least hit the paper but had no idea how well it would do. A couple shots later, I had a 2" group about 7-8" low. I was ecstatic! I had no idea that kind of accuracy could be achieved from a muzzleloader. Especially one I only paid $100 for.

After Saturday's results, I feel confident and ready for the upcoming hunt. I did decide however that 200 yards is about the furthest shot I'm willing to take on a deer. I guess I'm not a macho "590 yards with a muzzleloader" type of guy. I just feel that's the furthest I'm comfortable making a clean and ethical shot.

Also, for the few of you that have been following this thread, as soon as I switched to the CCI primers, I had no issues whatsoever with them going off the first time. I don't know if it was the change in primers or me cleaning up the firing pin and housing, or possibly a combination of the two, but they all went off as expected. I'm a happy camper.

Time to kill some deers! O*--


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