# You can vote on the Spidey hunt



## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

http://www.billingsgazette.net/h/blogs/outdoors/


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

I was going to leave a comment on the site, but all the whiney comments made me too teary eyed to post  :roll:


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

So far the vote is going 80% that it was "not a fair chase" and 20% it was a fair chase. I am appalled that 20% of the voters feel a huge team of professional hunters, converging on one animal, can in any stretch be considered a "fair chase"! But, as B&C say, the rules are the rules and as long as the States says fair enough and not illegal, it's fine with them. I am just wondering that if enough money was charged for the "Governor's Tags", would it be legal for the state to authorize the Utah National Guard (oh yes, the Governor does have the authority to do that) to be used as a guide service and would the B&C still sanction the kill as "fair Chase"?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

:roll:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> :roll:


You hit the wrong emoticon.

It was this one -------> :lol:


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

So in this - if the guides had not been paid, say it were close friends and family that had assisted - no payment at all - but everything else the same - Would there still be this discussion and set of accusations? I'm just sayin' - take money out of it for a minute - if no money were involved would there still be the uproar?


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I know that this has been beat to death but I don't get the "fair chase" infringement. 
My daughter drew a Buffalo on the Henries last year and I met with Mr. Henrie Mountains (a guy that spends more time on that mountain than anyone that I have ever heard of) on a few occasions and even had him come stay with me in my tent and bring his friend and son to assist. I took my son also and along with that my brother and his son came along too. My neighbor wanted to tag along and I thought why not? I also found a guy in town to come up and fix my trailer that had broken three leaf springs. When he had the trailer fixed, I asked if he would like to hunt with us also. He agreed and we had a few people to help in the cause. When the stakes are high, I like to have people help me. Why would that be a violation to the fair chase rule. Is it better to go home empty from a "once in a lifetime" hunt (except from the memories of course) than to have friends or family help a guy out. Does that violate the same rule simply because some are getting paid to use their eyes and skills. If rules were broken, Helicopters were used, explosives etc... I would see a problem. The problem that I see is that a guy had lots of money and made sure that he had help by spending that money and many are jealous. I envy the guy with money as much as the next guy. Does that mean that we need to mar a guys hunt when he shot the biggest bull EVER in the world. I just think that we need to step it up and be more supportive of a guy that doesn't do things the way that we typically do but none the less didn't do anything wrong.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Weeding out tradition and sport and making it a money thing.

Can anybody else see it that it is (not becoming) a rich man's sport and those that haven't figured it out are still scraping up whats left until it hits them between the eyes?


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I guess if you don't get it, you just don't get it. Sorry I even brought it up.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Man I can't believe I am going to give this a go after so long of biting my tongue.
The money factor involved is really quite minor. It gave this shooter the opportunity 
to hunt statewide, hunt with a rifle, bypass the draw process hunt longer dates and so on.

For those of you that try and relate a group of buddies in camp during a hunt to the 
people that spotted chased and finally made the phone call that got the shooter back on the mountain to pull the trigger you really need a reality check. These people saw the pot of gold at the end of the muzzle, either financially or to stroke their own ego's or to promote their business. Either way to try and spin a group of buds out looking for elk with a group of bull sitters don't fly.

Hey if the shooter feels good about how this all went down great good for him. Just don't try and pass this off to the rest of us that this is the norm and that as long as a new world record hit the dirt we should all be ok with it.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

wileywapati said:


> Man I can't believe I am going to give this a go after so long of biting my tongue.
> The money factor involved is really quite minor. It gave this shooter the opportunity
> to hunt statewide, hunt with a rifle, bypass the draw process hunt longer dates and so on.
> 
> ...


+1


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wileywapati said:


> For those of you that try and relate a group of buddies in camp during a hunt to the people that spotted chased and finally made the phone call that got the shooter back on the mountain to pull the trigger you really need a reality check. These people saw the pot of gold at the end of the muzzle, either financially or to stroke their own ego's or to promote their business. Either way to try and spin a group of buds out looking for elk with a group of bull sitters don't fly.


Then please explain why there was no 'moral' outrage when the kid with the Sportsman tag a few years ago killed a monster buck by having 'friends' locate the buck while rounding up cattle on the Henries and CALLED the kid who works at Christensen Arms and 'sat on the buck' until the kid arrived? All I read/heard was how cool it was for the kid, no criticism, not 'moral' outrage, no this is the end of hunting as we know it BS. WHY???? :roll: HE "by-passed" the rest of us by obtaining that tag, he had help from "numerous" others, he received a phone call telling him to get on the mountain, he had people 'sit' on the buck, EXACTLY as a 'money' hunter has/does, yet you guys said nothing but praise. Get real! :?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Hmmm like I have posted before. I'm not afraid of wackos like PETA, but I'm afraid of other hunters. Everything that was done on this hunt was legal. They had to hunt for the bull and the bull escaped every hunter in pursue from Aug 16th to Sept 29th (I believe was the date)

The only difference between having friends and family helping on your hunt and hiring guides is the money involved. Maybe even the guides have better binoculars and can score a bull a lot easier, but anyone that saw the spider bull knew he was big with or without a guide.

I cannot even believe that there is a poll so that people can vote on whether or not this hunt was a fair chase :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> wileywapati said:
> 
> 
> > For those of you that try and relate a group of buddies in camp during a hunt to the people that spotted chased and finally made the phone call that got the shooter back on the mountain to pull the trigger you really need a reality check. These people saw the pot of gold at the end of the muzzle, either financially or to stroke their own ego's or to promote their business. Either way to try and spin a group of buds out looking for elk with a group of bull sitters don't fly.
> ...


How many other hunts like the one you described above can you enlighten us with (the kid who had family give him a guided hunt)? I'll bet very few to none.

How many guided hunts do you hear about the guides using some "grey" tactics or some out and out seriously unethical or ugly ways to fulfill thier contract with thier client? I can name a gundle and I can find a bunch of them in public files that have lost thier licenses, and/or have recieved fines, or other consequences for pushing the grey or being down right illegal.

Now your the one making the leap Pro. Yea, same/same in many ways but how often does that (families creating a guided hunt for someone) really happen?


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Pro I guess its the dollar figure that exchanged hands and how many people were involved that kind of taints the deal. If a friend does it out of kindness its just.......different. Im not anti guides or anti guided hunts but the way this whole thing played out just doesnt sit right with alot of people.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Then please explain why there was no 'moral' outrage when the kid with the Sportsman tag a few years ago killed a monster buck by having 'friends' locate the buck while rounding up cattle on the Henries and CALLED the kid who works at Christensen Arms and 'sat on the buck' until the kid arrived? All I read/heard was how cool it was for the kid, no criticism, not 'moral' outrage, no this is the end of hunting as we know it BS. WHY???? HE "by-passed" the rest of us by obtaining that tag, he had help from "numerous" others, he received a phone call telling him to get on the mountain, he had people 'sit' on the buck, EXACTLY as a 'money' hunter has/does, yet you guys said nothing but praise. Get real!


My cousin heard all about this hunt because he lives down there and his friends were the guys rounding up the cattle. They called the kid and he came and killed the buck as you said.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> How many guided hunts do you hear about the guides using some "grey" tactics or some out and out seriously unethical or ugly ways to fulfill thier contract with thier client? I can name a gundle and I can find a bunch of them in public files that have lost thier licenses, and/or have recieved fines, or other consequences for pushing the grey or being down right illegal.


I think you can find many average joe hunters using grey tactics just as easy. It really boils down to this rich hunters vs middle class to lower class hunters.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Hmmm like I have posted before. I'm not afraid of wackos like PETA, but I'm afraid of other hunters. Everything that was done on this hunt was legal. They had to hunt for the bull and the bull escaped every hunter in pursue from Aug 16th to Sept 29th (I believe was the date)
> 
> The only difference between having friends and family helping on your hunt and hiring guides is the money involved. Maybe even the guides have better binoculars and can score a bull a lot easier, but anyone that saw the spider bull knew he was big with or without a guide.
> 
> I cannot even believe that there is a poll so that people can vote on whether or not this hunt was a fair chase :roll: :roll: :roll:


I really don't fear people like yourself that are blind or deaf to what is happening/already happened as far as commercialization, greed, encroachment, etc. has done to hunting already. I however have trouble deciding whether to be upset or laugh at people when we get into conversations like this however.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> *I really don't fear people like yourself that are blind or deaf to what is happening/already happened as far as commercialization, greed, encroachment, etc. has done to hunting already*. I however have trouble deciding whether to be upset or laugh at people when we get into conversations like this however.


Yeah its probably one of those conspiracy theories :lol: :lol:


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

If the B&C recognize this bull, then thats good enough for me. What a tribute to Utah game management and the quality of hunting we have in our state. Montana sure wishes they had bulls like Spidey.

Congratulations Mr. Austad, Doyal Moss and the Mossback Team for the bull that everyone dreams about

Big

PS……Oh and you too Pro, Good work!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

If I get lucky to draw a tag then Im going to hire *Porcupine Ridge Outdoors* because I believe the next record bull will come from them and they have a fantastic group of men who are dedicated to making sure that you have a hunting memory that lasts a lifetime.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

Welcome back CS...


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## GRIFF (Sep 22, 2007)

I saw that hunt on Christensen Arms and thought it was total BS. That deer had no way to escape and they stayed up all night watching him. Nothing fair chase about it.

Later,
Griff


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Thanks Marine



> I saw that hunt on Christensen Arms and thought it was total BS. That deer had no way to escape and they stayed up all night watching him. Nothing fair chase about it.
> 
> Later,
> Griff


Well somehow his hunt is considered "fair chase" because the spotters didnt get paid thousands of dollars so go figure :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Every year we have the same old fair chase BS instead of congratulating the hunters.

I guess many people turn sour after the hunting season is over because they were unsuccessful and it really makes them mad that rich guys are paying some guys to help them be more successful and they can't afford to do the same thing.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

GRIFF said:


> I saw that hunt on Christensen Arms and thought it was total BS. That deer had no way to escape and they stayed up all night watching him. Nothing fair chase about it.
> 
> Later,
> Griff


What the hell is wrong with staying up all night to watch a deer? Hell, I done all but sleep with my mountain goat for three days before I harvested it. Was I unethical, immoral and socially unacceptable? Ok maybe the last one. Should we ban hunting on Sunday because we can't buy sacramental wine on the sabath? OMG what ever happen to America and freedom....Big


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## GRIFF (Sep 22, 2007)

If you ran your goat into a box canyon with only one escape route which you and 20 of your friends lit a fire in and camped out in all night, then yes it was unacceptable. However, I don't think that was the case because you said it took 3 days so he must have been able to escape.

Later,
Griff


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

" Dude you should see the buck we saw today while we were running stock" is sure as hell different than I'll give you several thousand to bring me video of the buck or bull so I can show it to my shooter. You just told me it was "his buddies" not every swinging pecker that enjoys running all over the mountain looking for Mr. Big wanting to get paid.

I don't know about you but I only have so much vacation. I don't get paid to help my buddies I do it because they are my buddies. Conversly helping my buddies fill a tag won't feed my kids, pay my mortgage or keep gas in my truck. 

Like I said PRO you are reaching with the buddy vs hired guide spotter locator deal.

C.S. dude you hit the nail on the head. I'm not OK with this type of hunting, the anti / peta folks aren't ok with this type of hunting and as you can see from the feedback related to pretty much every article written on this 90% of the hunters are not either.

Like I said this is what it is please don't try to sell it to me like it was the way a hunt should be.


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

I can't believe you guys are arguing about this....It WAS a "Fair Chase" hunt, otherwise B&C would'nt have certified it the new record...they're criteria is alot more organized and logical then you bunch of lame brains...GEEZ :lol: :roll:


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

"legal" and "ethical" are two different things...period! Sorry all you apologist, but the score is still the same: "ethical" 2, "un-ethical" 8...you lose!!! The public has spoken...or should I say all the other hunters, not PETA, not the “anti's...your peers...have spoken...yes, the hunt was legal...yes, the hunt was un-ethical!


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

Bigbr- it is illegal to hunt on sundays on the east coast I found that very interesting when I was stationed out there...


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Thanks Marine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea, I agree. I also think we ought to congratulate poachers that spotlight some nice trophey animals as well. They put about the same amount of effort as when they hire a guide........I think this is just a load of "horse apples" and those poachers are getting robbed not getting into some of the record books as well.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

GRIFF said:


> If you ran your goat into a box canyon with only one escape route which you and 20 of your friends lit a fire in and camped out in all night, then yes it was unacceptable. However, I don't think that was the case because you said it took 3 days so he must have been able to escape.
> 
> Later,
> Griff


Griff,

With all due respect, if I could have trapped my mountain goat in a box canyon with the French Foreign Legion I would have been a miracle worker. I do not believe that it is possible to trap a mountain goat in a box canyon. I hope that someday you get a tag so that you can see the type of real estate that a goat can run in three minutes that it would take me ten hours and rope gear to cross.

When I started hunting, after I had the tutelage from the best hunter I have ever known, my dad, I hunted alone. I would archery hunt in the deep dark pines on the north side of the slopes and creep into deer lying in their beds and lay haste. After I had my fill, I found more joy in sharing the experience with a friend or a family member.

The way the draws are anymore, when someone gets a tag, the whole neighborhood goes along. Hell my nephew is sixteen now and has not drawn a tag in two years of putting in for the general deer draw. I wish I could give all my points to my 12 year old son, because I am not sure he will ever get to have the treasured experiences of hunting that I have had and in some ways wasted, because I was so selfish.

I do not in any way judge Denny Austad or the kid from Christenson Arms, both have been blessed to have had a great friends and the means to harvest the best animal on the mountain. You point to one person on this forum that goes into the field to hunt, that doesn't look for his or her best animal or opportunity and I will show you a person living a lie

I am very confident that if it was unethical it would be illegal as it relates to hunting in Utah&#8230;&#8230;Big


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bigbr said:


> If the B&C recognize this bull, then thats good enough for me. What a tribute to Utah game management and the quality of hunting we have in our state. Montana sure wishes they had bulls like Spidey.
> 
> Congratulations Mr. Austad, Doyal Moss and the Mossback Team for the bull that everyone dreams about
> 
> ...


I had NOTHING to do with this hunt. Just to clarify. But thanks anyway. 8)


BPturkeys said:


> "legal" and "ethical" are two different things...period! Sorry all you apologist, but the score is still the same: "ethical" 2, "un-ethical" 8...you lose!!! The public has spoken...or should I say all the other hunters, not PETA, not the "anti's...your peers...have spoken...yes, the hunt was legal...yes, the hunt was un-ethical!


A vote in a newspaper in Montana is NOT the final verdict!

Here is the deal from my viewpoint: This hunt was as ethical as the sportsman tag buck money being exchanged is NOT a factor, those who did it out of 'kindness'/loyalty did it for personal reasons, just as those who helped on the spider bull. I know of two guides who helped look for this bull on their own dime because they wanted to see this once in a lifetime bull in the flesh. To demean the hunt (any hunt) to how much money transpires is SILLY. Since when did how much a hunter spends define whether it is ethical or not? :? Money is just the scape goat here, not the root of the 'problem'. For the record, I have never nor do I ever plan to, been a part of a big posse type hunt. Harry can call me all the lame names he wants, but I can sleep well with how I have spent EVERY day in the hills as a guide/outfitter. If using more than 2-3 guides is unethical, so is using more than 2-3 'friends/family'. Be consistent or be a hypocrite!



> I do not in any way judge Denny Austad or the kid from Christensen Arms, both have been blessed to have had a great friends and the means to harvest the best animal on the mountain. You point to one person on this forum that goes into the field to hunt, that doesn't look for his or her best animal or opportunity and I will show you a person living a lie


AMEN!


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

USMARINEhuntinfool said:


> Bigbr- it is illegal to hunt on sundays on the east coast I found that very interesting when I was stationed out there...


The same way with Alberta Canada....Big


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> bigbr said:
> 
> 
> > If the B&C recognize this bull, then thats good enough for me. What a tribute to Utah game management and the quality of hunting we have in our state. Montana sure wishes they had bulls like Spidey.
> ...


Greed and money has been the demise of a great deal of what was once good and decent. What makes you think that hunting is the exception?

I don't remember calling you names Pro. I have called you a privilage abuser, but like I said everyone has that right, right?

Oh by the way Mr. English professor what the he!! does this sentance mean: "This hunt was as ethical as the sportsman tag buck money being exchanged is NOT a factor, those who did it out of 'kindness'/loyalty did it for personal reasons, just as those who helped on the spider bull."


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## GRIFF (Sep 22, 2007)

BigBr,
That was my point, you can't corner a goat but you can a deer. I just thought, this is my opinion, that hunt was cheapened by the 7 or 8 cars parked at the head of the canyon with a fire blazing all night long. I thought, again my opinion, it was an awful way for that awesome deer to die.

Later,
Griff


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> I don't remember calling you names Pro. I have called you a privilage abuser, but like I said everyone has that right, right? You have a horrible memory!
> 
> Oh by the way Mr. English professor what the he!! does this sentence mean: "This hunt was as ethical as the sportsman tag buck, money being exchanged is NOT a factor, those who did it out of 'kindness'/loyalty did it for personal reasons, just as those who helped on the spider bull." There, I 'fixed' it for you. I also fixed your misspelled word. :? :wink:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Yea, I agree. I also think we ought to congratulate poachers that spotlight some nice trophey animals as well. They put about the same amount of effort as when they hire a guide........I think this is just a load of "horse apples" and those poachers are getting robbed not getting into some of the record books as well.


Now your comparing poaching to guiding huh? One is illegal and one is legal so that pretty much is like comparing apples to oranges.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

GRIFF said:


> BigBr,
> That was my point, you can't corner a goat but you can a deer. I just thought, this is my opinion, that hunt was cheapened by the 7 or 8 cars parked at the head of the canyon with a fire blazing all night long. I thought, again my opinion, it was an awful way for that awesome deer to die.
> 
> Later,
> Griff


Griff,

Again with all due respect, and I did not see the video of this hunt, I can not think of one canyon on Ellan, Pennell, Hillers or Bull Dog Run that you could park cars in front of and hold a deer in a box canyon unless it was some where down towards Notum.

I have not hunted much in the Durfys, North of Star Springs, but I have been above their property and I still can't picture were this would take place. If you have a name, let me know and I will call uncle.

Big


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I have to agree, a lot of whining going on over there, he's a record no matter what anyone says.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I vote spidey #1


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> I vote spidey #1


 -/O_- -/|\- -BaHa!-


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Yea, I agree. I also think we ought to congratulate poachers that spotlight some nice trophey animals as well. They put about the same amount of effort as when they hire a guide........I think this is just a load of "horse apples" and those poachers are getting robbed not getting into some of the record books as well.
> 
> 
> Now your comparing poaching to guiding huh? One is illegal and one is legal so that pretty much is like comparing apples to oranges.


Nope, not much difference for me. One does it because he has the money and the other does it because he may not have the money and thereby has no other means. Both do it out of greed with little regard for anything else. Same/Same.

I say put em' in the books with Austad.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Harry Nutzack said:
> 
> 
> > I don't remember calling you names Pro. I have called you a privilage abuser, but like I said everyone has that right, right? You have a horrible memory!
> ...


Pinheads have horrible memories, sorry. I still don't understand that sentance, but thanks for trying professor Pro.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Nope, not much difference for me. One does it because he has the money and the other does it because he may not have the money and thereby has no other means. *Both do it out of greed with little regard for anything else. Same/Same.*I say put em' in the books with Austad.


Do you know these men personally to make such a comment?


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

I can't believe all the petty jealous crap over this bull!(pun intended) Sounds like a bunch of libs,po'd because somebody leveraged and risked there money and time and found success,so lets penalise him and confiscate his success.If he had come up empty would you jealous little boys be screaming? NO FAIR!NO FAIR! I may never be able to compete financially for a governors tag but like it or not that money he spent on the tag,150,000 dollars from what I understand,benefits every single person that spends time in the outdoors.I mean what the heck is wrong with this guy he worked hard was smart and he earned alot of money and he spent that money on a hunt.Where does he think he is? America!I can't wait for summer Pro.I am just dying to go down there and get a look at this mountain.I am really looking forward to making the trip with you.I have been on guided hunts nothing on this scale and you know I don't think it made me any less ethical or less able.Several words come to mind to describe the three guided hunts I have been on:Awesome,Exciting,Educational,Money well spent.For those that don't know I have yet to find a fair chase guide that guarantees a kill.A few will guarantee a shot but they are few and far between.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> I can't believe all the petty jealous crap over this bull!(pun intended) Sounds like a bunch of libs,po'd because somebody leveraged and risked there money and time and found success,so lets penalise him and confiscate his success.If he had come up empty would you jealous little boys be screaming? NO FAIR!NO FAIR! I may never be able to compete financially for a governors tag but like it or not that money he spent on the tag,150,000 dollars from what I understand,benefits every single person that spends time in the outdoors.I mean what the heck is wrong with this guy he worked hard was smart and he earned alot of money and he spent that money on a hunt.Where does he think he is? America!I can't wait for summer Pro.I am just dying to go down there and get a look at this mountain.I am really looking forward to making the trip with you.I have been on guided hunts nothing on this scale and you know I don't think it made me any less ethical or less able.Several words come to mind to describe the three guided hunts I have been on:Awesome,Exciting,Educational,Money well spent.For those that don't know I have yet to find a fair chase guide that guarantees a kill.A few will guarantee a shot but they are few and far between.


Whoa!!!! Careful there luv2fsh&hnt. If ol' Pro boy comes to a sudden stop, there's a **** good chance your head would go up is @$$.

Are you looking for a discount or something??? Just a suggestion, try to work it in from a little more subtle angle.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Man, I have got to stop reading this  it just gets me all teary eyed reading all this whining from grown men :roll:   

Buck up little campers  :wink:


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> [quote="luv2fsh&hnt":2xitsnuj]I can't believe all the petty jealous crap over this bull!(pun intended) Sounds like a bunch of libs,po'd because somebody leveraged and risked there money and time and found success,so lets penalise him and confiscate his success.If he had come up empty would you jealous little boys be screaming? NO FAIR!NO FAIR! I may never be able to compete financially for a governors tag but like it or not that money he spent on the tag,150,000 dollars from what I understand,benefits every single person that spends time in the outdoors.I mean what the heck is wrong with this guy he worked hard was smart and he earned alot of money and he spent that money on a hunt.Where does he think he is? America!I can't wait for summer Pro.I am just dying to go down there and get a look at this mountain.I am really looking forward to making the trip with you.I have been on guided hunts nothing on this scale and you know I don't think it made me any less ethical or less able.Several words come to mind to describe the three guided hunts I have been on:Awesome,Exciting,Educational,Money well spent.For those that don't know I have yet to find a fair chase guide that guarantees a kill.A few will guarantee a shot but they are few and far between.


Whoa!!!! Careful there luv2fsh&hnt. If ol' Pro boy comes to a sudden stop, there's a **** good chance your head would go up is @$$.

Are you looking for a discount or something??? Just a suggestion, try to work it in from a little more subtle angle.[/quote:2xitsnuj]

I expected a response like that.I am disappointed you couldn't come up something a little more clever.If I was looking for a discount I would just ask but considering I haven't booked with Pro or even discussed hiring his services your assertion is pointless.I just laid out the facts,perhaps sarcastically,but facts none the less.It sucks when facts get in the way of emotion doesn't it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> I expected a response like that.I am disappointed you couldn't come up something a little more clever.If I was looking for a discount I would just ask but considering I haven't booked with Pro or even discussed hiring his services your assertion is pointless.I just laid out the facts,perhaps sarcastically,but facts none the less.It sucks when facts get in the way of emotion doesn't it.


 -BaHa!- Good one. :mrgreen:


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## stealinghome (Aug 13, 2008)

Pro, if you honestly don't know the difference between someone doing a favor as a friend and someone being paid for it, then I really can't help you.

Prostitution is illegal for a reason. 

Bringing money into the deal changes everything. It just does. 

You can't honestly tell me that a friend helping a friend is the same as a hired crew. Once money is involved, everyone's motives change. The journey becomes about money rather than about the animal.

I'm not arguing the Spidey Bull. Whatever happened happened. But I'm sick and tired of the argument that volunteer help is the same as paid help. It just isn't.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

stealinghome said:


> Pro, if you honestly don't know the difference between someone doing a favor as a friend and someone being paid for it, then I really can't help you. I am saying the end result is the same, a dead animal. So what? I don't want/need your help, but thanks anyway.
> 
> Prostitution is illegal for a reason.  Not in Nevada. :shock:
> 
> ...


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## stealinghome (Aug 13, 2008)

I didn't want to get in a pissing match, but if you'd like too...here you go.



proutdoors said:


> stealinghome said:
> 
> 
> > Pro, if you honestly don't know the difference between someone doing a favor as a friend and someone being paid for it, then I really can't help you. I am saying the end result is the same, a dead animal. So what? I don't want/need your help, but thanks anyway.
> ...


I am not arguing that they guy couldn't spend his money and have whatever army up there hunting the animal he wanted. What he did was legal. My point is, I completely disagree with your assertion that money does not change the nature of any transaction. I do not agree with your claim that a bunch of friends helping each other is the same as what happened to kill they Spidey bull. I am not smart enough to make a judgment on the fair chase aspect of that particular hunt.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I seriously don't think that money is what guiding is all about. I have been on many guiding trips where guys have worked their butts off to help me harvest a good animal and they did it all for FREE.

Pro took me turkey hunting and he worked his butt off and all he wanted was a wendys hamburger.

I have been to Wyoming several times and have been guided for free because people LOVE being in the outdoors regardless of getting paid for it and they were very modivated.

Yes, Guides make a living guiding, but even my brother and Dad have packed into a waterhole on their backs and they werent being paid. They are just simply modivated about the hunt and having an awesome experience.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> stealinghome said:
> 
> 
> > Pro, if you honestly don't know the difference between someone doing a favor as a friend and someone being paid for it, then I really can't help you. I am saying the end result is the same, a dead animal. So what? I don't want/need your help, but thanks anyway.
> ...


See Pro, from this post and your logic behind your answers you and I agree pretty much say 90% about poachers and clients being the same. PUT THOSE POACHERS IN THE RECORD BOOKS!!!!!
They both put IN about the same amount of effort into the hunt and are concerned about one thing, with little regard for much of anything else.

I knew you were a privilage abuser, but I'm glad to see you come around.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

stealinghome said:


> I didn't want to get in a **** match, but if you'd like too...here you go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> See Pro, from this post and your logic behind your answers you and I agree pretty much say 90% about poachers and clients being the same. PUT THOSE POACHERS IN THE RECORD BOOKS!!!!!
> They both put IN about the same amount of effort into the hunt and are concerned about one thing, with little regard for much of anything else.
> 
> I knew you were a privilage abuser, but I'm glad to see you come around.


Poachers break the law, end of story. :roll:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Maybe I'm off base here, but I think his "assertion" was that it was "not the same", not "unethical" and I agree, they are different and money _does_ change things, sometimes to a more extreme degree than others.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Harry Nutzack said:
> 
> 
> > See Pro, from this post and your logic behind your answers you and I agree pretty much say 90% about poachers and clients being the same. PUT THOSE POACHERS IN THE RECORD BOOKS!!!!!
> ...


And your point is?????? Not everytime in every situation ,but for the most part You just added another similarity.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

How so? :?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> How so? :?


Ahhhh, yea, sure Pro...

It would be a fun statistic to flesh out.

How many hunters in the field? How many get pinched for illegal activity?

How many guides and clients in the field? How many get dinged for illegal activity?

There are a not any where near as many guides, but sure a lot of them getting dinged and pinched for things. 
I don't think they are terrible people. But, when money and greed are involved, those folks values and ethics get all bent out of shape. 
Yea, same goes for regular joe hunter. He'll bend the rules too out of greed, but who has the most motivation to do so?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> Yea, same goes for regular joe hunter. He'll bend the rules too out of greed, but who has the most motivation to do so?


IMHO it is the average hunter with a LE tag in hand. He knows this is his one chance to kill a big bull/buck. Me as an outfitter/guide, I get to chase them EVERY year. My hunters, for the most part can afford to buy these tags year after year, so getting one at any cost is less of a factor for the money hunters than the lucky SOB who drew a tag after 10+ years of applying and having the knowledge he will likely NEVER draw a tag again. _(O)_


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Do you anti-guide folks think the hunter loses his right to choose between right and wrong when they hire a guide?I have been on three guided hunts.The hunter is paying the guide and ultimately it is the hunter who decides how the hunt is conducted.You have to put the relationship in prospective.A smart hunter with a guide will listen to his guide and heed the advice given but the hunter is the one in the drivers seat.The main reason a guide is hired is for his knowledge of the area hunted and the movements and habits of the animals in that area.To suggest that a guide or hunter throws his ethics and sense of right and wrong out the window because of money is @ssinine.Those that do are neither hunter or guide they are criminals.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> Do you anti-guide folks think the hunter loses his right to choose between right and wrong when they hire a guide?I have been on three guided hunts.The hunter is paying the guide and ultimately it is the hunter who decides how the hunt is conducted.You have to put the relationship in prospective.A smart hunter with a guide will listen to his guide and heed the advice given but the hunter is the one in the drivers seat.The main reason a guide is hired is for his knowledge of the area hunted and the movements and habits of the animals in that area.To suggest that a guide or hunter throws his ethics and sense of right and wrong out the window because of money is @ssinine.Those that do are neither hunter or guide they are criminals.


I 100% agree. It is assinine and they are criminals. I know a grundle of those criminals.

I know of a lot more that push the grey or into the red flag zone frequently. Hopefully in the very near future, they too will get hit, licensed revoked, hefty fines, animal replacement fines, jail time, whatever.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Broad brushes being used here.

I know many guides and outfitters, as well as having been on numerous guided hunts in several states.

I know several who fit Harry's description, but I also know some top notch folks who are the epitome of ethical when it comes to hunting.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Harry Nutzack said:
> 
> 
> > Yea, same goes for regular joe hunter. He'll bend the rules too out of greed, but who has the most motivation to do so?
> ...


Ya, some LE guys will push the limits too. 
Your elite clients,... sure. they probably don't have a lot at stake, but I'll bet they won't hire you again unless they/you fulfill what they/you come to do. It's a business transaction. If they don't get the product, they will shop elsewhere (****, just typing that sounds artificial and something that doesn't belong in a "hunt"). How long are you going to stay competitive with the get er done anyway possible folks if you don't get er done?
The guys that saved up for several years without the family and wife knowing it and/or the guy who took out the first or second morgage on the house or sold the family car,.........well he's going to get a little bent if you don't put him on a big buck or bull....or he's going to find the guide that will get er done, no matter what the consequences may be.
Otherwise he'd take the same chance as everyone else on the mountain at whatever bull or buck he meets up with by whatever means he has to harvest this animal.

Poachers pay on a random basis. They cant brag too much or get their records and name in the book, but to them they too feel its worth it.

Do you take multiple hunters ie family's out for a package price??? How many 14 year olds do you take out?
What has hunting become? It certainly isn't a tradition or sport anymore.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Alright back to the subject at hand here. Those involved in the harvest of this bull DID NOTHING ILLEGAL!! I don't have a grudge about a guy earning a chunk of change and spending it on a Wealth tag. I do have some issues with the process and again this is not the shooters fault. These men involved played within the rules.

I do have a huge problem with all of the Guide apologists telling me that this should be an acceptable and honorable form of hunting ,IT AIN'T AND NEVER WILL BE!! We are hunters
we are not taking part in a wildlife roundup!! I have issues with the guiding industry in Utah 
and the lack of rules that govern this industry. The good news is that legislation will be debated in the upcoming session that will deal with putting some common sense rules and regulations in place. I have been in contact with the Rep sponsoring the Bill and fully intend to give my two cents on the issue of paid bounty hunting as well as other things.

I have said repeatedly the guy killed a new world record elk. He killed it within the framework of the law. If he feels good about how this went down then good for him and that should be all that matters to him. JUST DON'T TRY AND TELL ME THAT THIS IS WHAT HUNTING IS ABOUT!!!


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Is there a licence for being a guide? Some sort of certification? What are the requirements?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> Do you take multiple hunters ie family's out for a package price??? How many 14 year olds do you take out? I have guided numerous youth/disabled hunters for nothing more than a smile and a thanks as payment in full!
> What has hunting become? It certainly isn't a tradition or sport anymore. What traditions are you referring to? the ones where the 'natives' would chase animals off cliffs, or the early settlers killing every animal they could? The traditions that led to elk/bison/bighorn sheep being almost slaughtered into extinction? How about the traditional hunters who hired GUIDES in the 1700's and 1800's like Jim Bridger and Kit Carson?





wileywapati said:


> JUST DON'T TRY AND TELL ME THAT THIS IS WHAT HUNTING IS ABOUT!!!


When did you get appointed as the one who gets to define what is hunting and what hunting is about? :? The reasons/ways people hunt vary as much as the way they look. To pigeonhole all hunters to comply with YOUR way of hunting is beyond nonsensical.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Is there a licence for being a guide? Some sort of certification? What are the requirements?


An outfitter must have a business license, be insured and bonded, have special use permits for every forest service and blm unit they will guide on. Guides have to be first aid/CPR certified and be employed by an approved outfitter service.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Depends on the state, but in Utah you need a business license and insurance. Then the forrest service requires a special use permit and even higher insurance, then they also take a percentage of your profit. Then there is CPR certs, ATV certs, and other costs associated with guiding and then the overhead for operating the business.

After going through all of these lame posts, it seems like there are some who are jealous and would like socialized hunting.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Harry Nutzack said:
> 
> 
> > Do you take multiple hunters ie family's out for a package price??? How many 14 year olds do you take out? I have guided numerous youth/disabled hunters for nothing more than a smile and a thanks as payment in full!
> ...


SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE PRO. Checks and balances. Even playing fields. Some form of equality. "Just good ol' American free enterprise at work".....is this where we are going? Sorry, you won't survive it either Pro. You'll get bumped out of the big picture as quick as everyone else.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: You can vote on the Spidey h*

Define "approved". Am I wrong in saying that Utah's guide restrictions are relatively lax? . Obtaining insurance and forest service permits is an easy task. Utah could benefit from a state run organization and strict rules and guidelines for outfitters and guides. I speculate that ethical guides would benefit as well.

I also agree, Strange things can happen when money is involved.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Yep socialized hunting is the way to go. Briliant, just briliant, is your nut sack attached to your shoulders?


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Outfitters usually get more in the grey area as more and more restrictions are put on them. They start to pull all strings to get their clients the biggest animal on the mtn. I don't think more restrictions is the way to go.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I have been very involved in discussions with other guide services on making some better guide lines for guiding on public land in Utah. I have no problems with that. To say it is easy to obtain special use permits is an overstatement. It isn't like climbing Mt Everest, but it's no walk in the park either.


Harry Nutzack said:


> SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE PRO. Checks and balances. Even playing fields. Some form of equality. "Just good ol' American free enterprise at work".....is this where we are going? Sorry, you won't survive it either Pro. You'll get bumped out of the big picture as quick as everyone else.


 "Even playing fields", how do you do that w/o taking personal freedoms away? I am in better/worse shape than other hunters, I have more/less resources available to assist me on my hunts, I have more/less knowledge of an area than other hunters. How do you 'equalize' that? :?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

utfireman said:


> Yep socialized hunting is the way to go. Briliant, just briliant, is your nut sack attached to your shoulders?


Brilliant? Hummmm.....same vocabulary.
Its all good Pro. No, I got it right and attached the right post to answer to.

The real test and the answer will be revealed with time, not by us typing on the computer.

I quit hunting big game quite a while ago. The stuff that I've watched happen is happening exponentially, kind of like a big run away train, it keeps going faster and faster. 
The last 10 years of big game hunting have been great. Lets see what the next 10 years bring.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Answer my question posted in my last post please Mr Nutzack. :? How do make it 'equal' across the board and where do you draw the line?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> How do make it 'equal' across the board and where do you draw the line?


How about starting with limiting the number of units an outfitter can have guides working in, limit the number of units an outfitter can guide in, limit the number of guides per hunter, and limiting the number of guides an outfitter may hire or have working at one time. Also, how about making all guides and outfitters pass certification courses and become licensed before they are allowed to work.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > How do make it 'equal' across the board and where do you draw the line?
> ...


How do you LEGALLY limit how many guides per hunter? Do you plan for that to be applied to family/friends as well? I mean we want it 'equal' remember. :shock: How can you LEGALLY limit how many guides an outfitter 'may' hire or have working at one time? Are we going to tell EVERY business in America how many employees they can have to make things 'fair and equal'? I support an ethics course for all guides/outfitters, but what will it really accomplish other than more bureaucracy and WASTED resources from the DWR to monitor? More regulations rarely, if ever, work to make things better. Most often it compounds the situation.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

In my own little perfect world, I'd like to see the following regulations for guiding:

Guides lease the guide rights to units - much the same as a rancher leasing grazing rights.
Guides may only guide in their unit.
Guides manage predators in their unit as per the lease agreements.
Guide lease agreements would be for 10 years, with additional option years made available for compliance. In other words, keep the rules and you keep yoru unit. Break them and you lose it.
Guides get X # of tags for thier unit - guaranteeing tags for X# of clients every year. So say you have the permit to guide on the Henry's - You'd get 2 deer tags and 2 bison tags for your clients every year. Something like that. Guide-sponsored tags cost twice the public tag for the same unit.
General public may hunt in guide areas as seasons dictate. 

Thats all I can think of for now. The main point in this combination is to avoid guides fighting over animals yet provide assured and predictable clients/tags year in and year out. It would also force guides to comply with legal and ethical hunting techniques or they lose their permit. There are certainly negatives to this approach, as no fart is without stink. But, its an approach.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > proutdoors said:
> ...


Wow, how politics play in people's lives. Pure Republican tactics at work. 
Trickle down opportunities to everyone else? Fewer or no regulations? Pure American free enterprise at work will get us through it. OK Pro.

Like I told you, or I mean utfireman a post or two ago, I quit hunting big game quite a while ago. The stuff that I've watched happen is happening exponentially, kind of like a big run away train, it keeps going faster and faster. 
The last 10 years of big game hunting have been ahhhh....awesome. Lets see what the next 10 years bring.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Like I told you, or I mean utfireman a post or two ago, I quit hunting big game quite a while ago.


It sounds like you weren't very interested in hunting since you threw in the towel and quit hunting, but I guess you made the odds a little better for everyone else. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Socialism is NOT the 'cure' for the woes of hunting. Name a socialist country with better hunting for the general public than in America.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Socialism is NOT the 'cure' for the woes of hunting. Name a socialist country with better hunting for the general public than in America.


There is strength in numbers. Not any one person or a select few (even with an over abundance of cash) can turn a big run away train around.
You keep telling yourself and anyone else that will listen whatever you think you believe or they'll listen to Pro, we'll see where you are in the guiding business 10 years from now.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I predict I will be doing BETTER than I am today, unless pinheads get their way and hunting is ended due to "equality/fairness".


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Heck, my thoughts are, in ten years Pro will be so big that no one will even remember the name Doyl, and I will be too old to scout and will have enough money that I can hire Pro.  :mrgreen:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bowgy said:


> Heck, my thoughts are, in ten years Pro will be so big that no one will even remember the name Doyl, and I will be too old to scout and will have enough money that I can hire Pro.  :mrgreen:


**** straight! -/O\- _O\


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> You keep telling yourself and anyone else that will listen whatever you think you believe or they'll listen to Pro, we'll see where you are in the guiding business 10 years from now.


I don't see hunting going away in the next 10 years so why would the guiding business be affected?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> I predict I will be doing BETTER than I am today, unless pinheads get their way and hunting is ended due to "equality/fairness".


Hunting is (again, not becoming) indeed a rich man's sport. If things continue the way they are, you won't be able to complete with it either and your butt is tossed out of that pool within that 10 year time frame. Let it take whatever course you make of it, hell you deserve it Pro.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > You keep telling yourself and anyone else that will listen whatever you think you believe or they'll listen to Pro, we'll see where you are in the guiding business 10 years from now.
> 
> 
> I don't see hunting going away in the next 10 years so why would the guiding business be affected?


Ahhhhhh, ignorance is indeed bliss.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Hunting is (again, not becoming) indeed a rich man's sport. If things continue the way they are, you won't be able to complete with it either and your butt is tossed out of that pool within that 10 year time frame. Let it take whatever course you make of it, hell you deserve it Pro.


I don't see LE tags and general season prices skyrocketing right now. They actually lowered the general season tag prices so please post some facts on how it's a rich man's sport?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Ahhhhhh, ignorance is indeed bliss.


Maybe you need to write that down and post it in front of the mirror so you can read it while brushing your teeth.  Let me know about your success in two weeks.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Hunting is (again, not becoming) indeed a rich man's sport. If things continue the way they are, you won't be able to complete with it either and your butt is tossed out of that pool within that 10 year time frame. Let it take whatever course you make of it, hell you deserve it Pro.
> 
> 
> I don't see LE tags and general season prices skyrocketing right now. They actually lowered the general season tag prices so please post some facts on how it's a rich man's sport?


*******MOD EDIT***********
DON'T POST COPYRIGHTED ARTICLES. POST A LINK.

ARTICLE DELETED.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Great, you are able to cut and paste. Atta boy.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

> Hunting is (again, not becoming) indeed a rich man's sport.


This is not just going on with hunting. It happens with fishing, bird hunting, golf, skiing, shooting sports and many others.

Give me an example of a personal sport that cost the same to enjoy today as it did 10 years ago. Even team sports have cost more to play then they did 10 years ago.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Great, you are able to cut and paste. Atta boy.


Number of hunters down, but more rich people bag animals
By LANCE GAY
Scripps Howard News Service
January 22, 2004

*********MOD EDIT**************
YOU CAN'T POST COPYRIGHTED ARTICLES. POST A LINK.

ARTICLE DELETED.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Harry, in the article that you posted it never said that Rich people are the cause. The cost of living has gone up. Some families aren't into hunting because their kids would rather play video games than hike in the mountains. You said that families cannot afford hunting, but that has stopped them from spending hundreds of dollars on Xbox and other games. People do have enough money to hunt if they wish to do so.

Again Rich people aren't the problem because of declining hunting numbers.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Harry, in the article that you posted it never said that Rich people are the cause. The cost of living has gone up. Some families aren't into hunting because their kids would rather play video games than hike in the mountains. You said that families cannot afford hunting, but that has stopped them from spending hundreds of dollars on Xbox and other games. People do have enough money to hunt if they wish to do so.
> 
> Again Rich people aren't the decline in hunting numbers.


Ahhhh, maybe you didn't read my last post???

I could go on and on but I'm thinking that I'm taking up a lot of necessary server space that you guys, I'm sure could use to drum up some more BUSINESS.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > Harry, in the article that you posted it never said that Rich people are the cause. The cost of living has gone up. Some families aren't into hunting because their kids would rather play video games than hike in the mountains. You said that families cannot afford hunting, but that has stopped them from spending hundreds of dollars on Xbox and other games. People do have enough money to hunt if they wish to do so.
> ...


You do realize that Fund for Animals is ANTI-hunting don't you? :? :roll:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Harry, why did you quit hunting? I might have missed it since I havent went back and read all your posts.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Harry Nutzack said:
> 
> 
> > coyoteslayer said:
> ...


And your point is..............


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

My point is....YOU are using ANTI hunting propaganda to justify your stance. :roll: :? Maybe you can cut and paste some stuff from Al Jazeer(sp?) to support America being evil. :shock:


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> My point is....YOU are using ANTI hunting propaganda to justify your stance. :roll: :? Maybe you can cut and paste some stuff from Al Jazeer(sp?) to support America being evil. :shock:


Bwhaaahaaaaahaaa. Again, you are a funny guy Pro, not to laugh with but at.

The artical isn't "ANTI hunting propaganda." They might have cited sources that are ANTI hunting but they are doing what they are supposed to, getting all the information. Did you see them cite other sources: The Shooting Sport Foundation, US Fish and Wildlife Service, etc. and they also make this statement: "Both sides acknowledge that hunting is a growing pastime among the affluent, defined as households earning more than $100,000 a year."
The anti's are gaining more ground by our loss of it. You promote this loss whether you chose to believe it or not.

Like I said, there are 100's of articles on the internet that I won't cut and paste on here. Besides Pro, why are you responding to a pinhead when you yourself will be rich enough to guide the america's top crust folks in the next 10 years? You ought to be past that, shoot, I mean, why do you even associate yourself with us peons???
Your focus should be to expand your clientale to the upper crust folks. Stop giving away hunts and start thinking big like Doyle.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

I couldn't find this one right off...so just one more:

Hunting's Dilemma: Balancing Cost, Access and Opportunity
by Flint Stephens, photos by BigGameHunt.net

********MOD EDIT********
YOU CAN'T POST COPYRIGHTED ARTICLES. POST A LINK INSTEAD

ARTICLE DELETED.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> Your focus should be to expand your clientale to the upper crust folks. Stop giving away hunts and start thinking big like Doyle.


Not to defend Doyle anymore, but he 'gives' hunts away as well. I have first hand knowledge of two hunts where Mossback helped wheelchair bound hunters kill big bucks. One drew the statewide sportsman tag, the other drew a Book Cliffs tag. Both were guided by some of the best in the biz, none of them expected/allowed monetary compensation for gas/food/time. Even the 'worst' example of "what is wrong with guiding" Mossback, they do many things behind the scenes that help others at their own expense. I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with a man such as Doyle Moss over a person who quotes nonsense and jibberish acting like a poor little victim every day of the week! Doyle is not perfect, and I do things different than he does, but he loves the outdoors and he loves wildlife. It is EASY for people who do NOT even hunt to criticize others, it is much harder to have validity in your views when you do little more than get on a public forum and propagate rumors/hearsay/untruths/anti-hunting propaganda. :?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Harry Nutzack said:
> 
> 
> > Your focus should be to expand your clientale to the upper crust folks. Stop giving away hunts and start thinking big like Doyle.
> ...


Bwahahahaahaaaaaawhoohaaalaaawwhooooohaahahaa!!!! Your a friggin riot Pro.

"All the "rumors/hearsay/untruths/anti-hunting propaganda." Two of those cut and pastes come from hunting articles.

I hunt, I just don't bother hunting big game any more.

Go blind if you want to Pro, but its going to hit you right between the eyes, like it or not.


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|*


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

luv2fsh&hnt said:


> O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|* O|*


You need to make approximately 330,000 more of those emoticons to represent the regular joe hunters and where hunting is going for them. Of course it's probably 30 or 40,000 fewer by now.


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## Duckhunter311 (Dec 8, 2008)

IMO Why'd mossback have to kill this bull? honestly.. I freaking hate mossback. Me and quite a few other people i know of.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Did you seriously just ask that question :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> You need to make approximately 330,000 more of those emoticons to represent the regular joe hunters and where hunting is going for them. Of course it's probably 30 or 40,000 fewer by now.


Oh yes more doom and gloom. :lol: :lol: :lol: How do you sleep at night???


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Harry, Im putting in for the following hunts and im not a rich fellow.

Utah, Moose and elk, general season deer
Utah, Hunting Expo 50 tags
Wyoming, Deer and Antelope
New Mexico, Elk
Colorado, Deer
Arizona, Deer
Nebraska, Deer

I don't see any doom and gloom. Hunting is my hobby and I freaking LOVE IT!!!!


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm voting for the mods to lock this and every future thread about Spidey/mossyback, I for one am sick about hearing this topic, its getting real old.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> I'm voting for the mods to lock this and every future thread about Spidey/mossyback, I for one am sick about hearing this topic, its getting real old.


I agree. The troll (nutsack) is on the loose. He doesn't post anything constructive and acts like a giant D Bag.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

martymcfly73 said:


> Mojo1 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm voting for the mods to lock this and every future thread about Spidey/mossyback, I for one am sick about hearing this topic, its getting real old.
> ...


Hey, from one giant D bag to a giant D nosel,........ it is what it is, don't get pizzed off at me. 
Its time for people to wake up and extend the time that they have left, or watch it go south even quicker.

Despite my poor attitude in this thread and others with Pro in them towards hunting and its direction mcfly, I'm not the enemy. If you don't like it, try to stay in the game and do something about it. I don't hunt big game anymore, but I still attend RAC and other meetings and contribute what I can.......money, time and my two cents when I'm given the chance to give it.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> HN wrote: I don't hunt big game anymore, but I still attend RAC and other meetings and contribute what I can.......money, time and my two cents when I'm given the chance to give it.


Why???? No seriously, Why?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

bowgy said:


> > HN wrote: I don't hunt big game anymore, but I still attend RAC and other meetings and contribute what I can.......money, time and my two cents when I'm given the chance to give it.
> 
> 
> Why???? No seriously, Why?


I still hunt birds. All types of hunting, and fishing as well,(which I also still do) are facing the same fate. I'm still trying to hang on to what I still love to do, or at least extend it for a while longer.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

******************
MOD WARNING SHOT
******************

1 - PLAY NICE.

2- STOP POSTING ENTIRE ARTICLES UNLESS YOU WROTE THEM YOURSELF. POST A LINK, AND MAYBE A SUMMARY SENTENCE. POSTING ENTIRE ARTICLES IS A COPYRIGHT VIOLATION AND THREATENS THE SURVIVAL OF THIS FORUM.

3- STOP THE NAME CALLING.

4 - THIS CAN BE DISCUSSED CIVILY. NEXT VIOLATION AND THIS IS SHUT DOWN.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> ******************
> MOD WARNING SHOT
> ******************
> 
> ...


OK I guess the internet is different regarding copyright violations. I thought if the source was cited, no violation.

I'm done eitherway. But here's the links to the articals that were deleted plus a couple more. I believe they should be tied to the thread for anyones reading enjoyment:

http://www.biggamehunt.net/sections/Pol ... 00508.html

http://www.knoxstudio.com/shns/story.cf ... -04&cat=AN

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunt ... sing-costs

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hun ... lk-part-ii

http://www.wildwilderness.org/content/view/919/61/


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Thank you for the links to the articles. 

Even though we cite the source, we cannot publish entire articles without express written permission of the copyright owner. Copying without citation is plagerism. Copying with citation but not permission is an infringement of copyright. 

I know some bulletin board websites out there do it all the time. We've been contacted here by more than one attorney/author when it has happened here. We just want to make sure (erring on the side of caution) that we don't approach a line that could be considered a problem. Where this thing is run from donations, a single legal dispute of any kind would shut us down, and none of us want that. 

So when there is a valuable article you want people to read - and I enjoyed the articles you posted - please post the link. 

Thanks!!

GaryFish


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I'd like to thank you for those links, the articles clearly are examples of what most of us feel is going on in the world of hunting. 
As with you, many of us are saddened and frustrated. Maybe we are just a bunch of bitter old men, whiner liberals, big babies, whatever other names they want to call us, but the fact remains that we are hunters, we are their peers, and...we represent the vast majority of hunters in the USA. We are not motivated in any way by the fact we are NOT making money, our only motivation is the hunting itself. Anyway, these, and any other articles you my come across are a MUST READ for hunters on both side of this issue. Thanks again Nzack and keep up the good fight.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Even though we cite the source, we cannot publish entire articles without express written permission of the copyright owner. Copying without citation is plagerism. Copying with citation but not permission is an infringement of copyright.


The ol' copyright argument again....

Sorry, but reprinting most articles in their entirety probably falls under the "Fair Use" clause and doesn't violate copyright:

Fair use and fair dealing
Main articles: Fair use and Fair dealing
Copyright does not prohibit all copying or replication. In the United States, the fair use doctrine, codified by the Copyright Act of 1976 as 17 U.S.C. § 107, permits some copying and distribution without permission of the copyright holder or payment to same. The statute does not clearly define fair use, but instead gives four non-exclusive factors to consider in a fair use analysis. Those factors are:
the purpose and character of the use;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> GaryFish said:
> 
> 
> > Even though we cite the source, we cannot publish entire articles without express written permission of the copyright owner. Copying without citation is plagerism. Copying with citation but not permission is an infringement of copyright.
> ...


Whose sight is it? Enough said! :roll:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Ok, sherriff Pro! :roll: Just don't call what it ain't. It probably ain't a violation of copyright and it definitely ain't plagiarism even if it is their "sight"! :roll:


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

You are right, W2U - it may or may not be a violation. But it is certainly a grey area. 

To consider:
In the past, UWN has been contacted by writers and attorneys representing writers, who didn't approve of their material being posted here in its entirety without consent.

This place operates on a shoestring budget of donations and time.

Even IF it is fair use, should someone file any kind of legal actions against UWN for copyright violation, we could not afford to fight that legal battle.

The end result would be that we would be shut down.

The Conclusion - If we are to err in our judgement of what is and what is not a violation of copyright, we'd rather err on the side of caution. That is probably overkill. But in our view, you can't get pushed off a cliff if you don't stand close to the edge.


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## Petersen (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> The ol' copyright argument again....
> 
> Sorry, but reprinting most articles in their entirety probably falls under the "Fair Use" clause and doesn't violate copyright:


I've been contacted several times by business owners, authors, photographers and their legal representatives asking me to remove their material from the site. So far, they've all been polite, but several of these requests have been accompanied by implied threats of further action.

Finding out whether or not they're bluffing or whether it would survive a court challenge isn't a question that I'm interested in pursuing. As the owner of the site, I have no desire to engage in legal battles to defend someone else's supposed right to copy and paste the words of other people who don't want their words posted here.

This isn't a profit-making Web site, and the day I have to hire a lawyer to fend off legal challenges brought on by forum members who won't follow the forum rules, is the same day that I'll lock the doors and walk away from the whole thing.

Bottom line: On this forum, forum members may quote excerpts from copyrighted material, but they may not simply cut and paste entire articles from other sources without permission from the copyright holders to do so.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

"Fair Use" is simple enough. I've been legally involved with it a couple times, professionally and otherwise, on both sides of the coin. Is somebody making money? If so, it isn't fair use.

We aren't making money, but our advertisers are. The content of this site draws readers. That's exactly why advertisers pay us to place an ad here. So using someone else's copyrighted content here is not only a thousand miles from fair use and clearly illegal; it's unethical. And even if it wasn't, we don't have a legal defense fund. Maybe we could retain a lawyer with a couple fresh trout or a few packages of venison, eh?

Back to the bull...

Just reading comments from various non-hunting websites and without passing judgment, it appears this story has done more to promote anti-hunting than any recent event in Utah history. Based on blogs and news comments and such, it looks like the general public is pretty disgusted.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Just reading comments from various non-hunting websites and without passing judgment, it appears this story has done more to promote anti-hunting than any recent event in Utah history. Based on blogs and news comments and such, it looks like the general public is pretty disgusted.


I guess the blogs and news comments were based on lies and not the actual story.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> I guess the blogs and news comments were based on lies and not the actual story.


You may very well be right, but ether way people who do not know the actual story are reading it as the truth. That does not look good.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

OK. So just for a second - I'll think the worst about this hunt. Fine. 

This still pales in comparison to hunting on the big Texas ranches for exotics. Or the confined shooting operations all over the country. There was a pay to shoot operation near Power, Montana that held elk, deer, bighorn sheep all in a 40 acre barren enclosure. The shooter would show up and the wrangler would go and rope the target and bring it into a round corral for the shooter. After shooting the animal, it would be loaded in the back of a horse trailer and hauled to the nearest mountain and taken out for the picture taking. Then the animal would be caped and stuff and shipped to the shooter. "Clients" were willing to drop $10-15K to shoot a trophey elk in this kind of setting, and $30-45K to shoot full curl rams in the corral. Knowing those things take place, the spidey hunt is pretty darn tame. At least it was a wild elk, not roped, not retained in a corral, not ear tagged, and on public lands. So is it bad for our sport? Not in my opinion. Looking at a bit bigger picture, it is nothing in comparison to the confined shooting operations. Not even close.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

I say, Congrats to Mr. Denny Austad and his fine elk !!


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

The curse goes on!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Except, now, because of the publicity, we're all being dragged into it. Just let it go, people!! Hunt the way you hunt and let others hunt the way they hunt. If it's unethical to you, don't do it, but if it's illegal and you actually witness it, turn them in!! I didn't and won't vote because I don't know the full story and even if I did, I certainly can't judge another person's motives, thoughts, feelings, character, or incentives based on one moment of their life, even if I had the right to judge them at all, which I don't! Let it go!!


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> OK. So just for a second - I'll think the worst about this hunt. Fine.
> 
> This still pales in comparison to hunting on the big Texas ranches for exotics. Or the confined shooting operations all over the country. There was a pay to shoot operation near Power, Montana that held elk, deer, bighorn sheep all in a 40 acre barren enclosure. The shooter would show up and the wrangler would go and rope the target and bring it into a round corral for the shooter. After shooting the animal, it would be loaded in the back of a horse trailer and hauled to the nearest mountain and taken out for the picture taking. Then the animal would be caped and stuff and shipped to the shooter. "Clients" were willing to drop $10-15K to shoot a trophey elk in this kind of setting, and $30-45K to shoot full curl rams in the corral. Knowing those things take place, the spidey hunt is pretty darn tame. At least it was a wild elk, not roped, not retained in a corral, not ear tagged, and on public lands. So is it bad for our sport? Not in my opinion. Looking at a bit bigger picture, it is nothing in comparison to the confined shooting operations. Not even close.


I know I said I was done with this thread, but.....
I guess I'm still in the thread since I still can't seem to figure you people out. 
Yes, the spidey hunt pales in comparison to to the canned hunts that are out there. The biggest problem is that Spidey was considered a fair chase "hunt" and Boone and Crockett accepted this hunt into it's books.

My whole issue with all of this that no one seems to still understand (which completely blows me away) is your opportunities to hunt are being taken away from you day by day. Since its the frog in the pot of water on the stove approach, I guess none of you can feel the heat yet. I thought some of the few articals I posted would give you guys a hint. I thought that maybe some of them would invigorate a few of you, I guess maybe not.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> > I guess the blogs and news comments were based on lies and not the actual story.
> 
> 
> You may very well be right, but ether way people who do not know the actual story are reading it as the truth. That does not look good.


Uhhhmmm, ahhhhhhh........ OK, I'll bite, what is the TRUE story????


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> I still can't figure you people out.
> Yes, the spidey hunt pales in comparison to to the canned hunts that are out there. The biggest problem is that Spidey was considered a fair chase "hunt" and Boone and Crockett accepted this hunt into it's books. Let's see, the organization most recognized as the leader in "Fair chase" hunting records deemed it 'fair chase', and that is somehow a 'problem' because anti-hunters and other zealots don't like it. I am shocked. Shocked I tell you. :roll:
> 
> My whole issue with all of this that no one seems to still understand (which completely blows me away) is your opportunities to hunt are being taken away from you day by day. Since its the frog in the pot of water on the stove approach, I guess none of you can feel the heat yet. I thought some of the few articals I posted would give you guys a hint. I thought that maybe some of them would invigorate a few of you, I guess maybe not. How does ONE statewide tag sold to the highest bidder "take away" ANY opportunities to hunt for you/me? How much hunting do you think there will be in the future if no money is spent on habitat? How much hunting do you think there will be in the future if we cater/listen to the bunny huggers you fall in step with? Do you really believe they have hunters welfare/future at heart with their stated views of the spider bull? Talk about being duped and slowly cooked in the pot of water. :?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> weatherby25 said:
> 
> 
> > > I guess the blogs and news comments were based on lies and not the actual story.
> ...


Not the one you tried to sell as based on 'reliable' sources, that's for **** sure. -_O-


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

PRO, YOUR CLIENT BASE IS SHRINKING EVERY YEAR DUE TO THE LACK OF OPPORTUNITY OF THE REGULAR HUNTER WHO MAKES LESS THAN $100,000+ A YEAR.

LOOK AT THE NUMBERS PRO.....SHRINKING EVERY YEAR. NOT EVERYONE HIRES GUIDES. NOT EVERYONE DRAWS LIMITED ENTRY TAGS EVERY YEAR (for obvious reasons). THE CHANCE OF DRAWING A LE TAG IS A VERY SIMILAR CHANCE OF BEING STRUCK WITH LIGHTNING.

YOUR TOAST ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE BUT THE FILTHY RICH IN THE FAIRLY NEAR FUTURE. 
THE TREND IS HAPPENING EXPONENTIALLY.
IF EVERYONE BUT THE RICH DROP OUT, WHO DO YOU THINK WILL BE HUNTING LET ALONE PAYING TO HELP PRESERVE HABITAT FOR WILD GAME, THE RICH??? IS THE DWR GOING TO CHARGE 50 OR $60,000 FOR HUNTING LICENSES TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE?? 
IF HUNTING AND OPPORTUNITY ARE SO GREAT, WHY ARE OUR NUMBERS TAKING A DIVE EVERY YEAR???

THREE OF THE FIVE ARTICLES I POSTED CAME FROM "OUTDOOR LIFE", BIGGAMEHUNT.NET AND ESPN OUTDOORS. SINCE WHEN DID THESE FOLKS BECOME PETA SUPPORTERS, AND BUNNY LOVIN' TREE HUGGERS PRO???????


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

> I guess the blogs and news comments were based on lies and not the actual story'





> You may very well be right, but ether way people who do not know the actual story are reading it as the truth. That does not look good.





> Uhhhmmm, ahhhhhhh........ OK, I'll bite, what is the TRUE story????
> 
> Not the one you tried to sell as based on 'reliable' sources, that's for **** sure. -_O-


The only difference between the story the media has and confidently puts in articles and the one I told you is that there were hunters who saw multiple people with what they thought were tranquilizer guns.

I'm a troll?? Lets have Pro, rather than try to be wit that he thinks he is and run down what I was told happened, tell us in detail how the @ssback, Austad, Spidey hunt went down. For him to have a different opinion, one would think he's know what REALLY happened, or just an idiot talking to hear his head roar. Go, Pro, tell us......


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> > I guess the blogs and news comments were based on lies and not the actual story'
> 
> 
> [quote:1ryywlnb]You may very well be right, but ether way people who do not know the actual story are reading it as the truth. That does not look good.


Uhhhmmm, ahhhhhhh........ OK, I'll bite, what is the TRUE story????[/quote:1ryywlnb]


> Not the one you tried to sell as based on 'reliable' sources, that's for **** sure. -_O-


[/quote]

The only difference between the story the media has and confidently puts in articles and the one I told you is that there were hunters who saw multiple people with what they thought were tranquilizer guns.

I'm a troll?? Lets have Pro, rather than try to be wit that he thinks he is and run down what I was told happened, tell us in detail how the @ssback, Austad, Spidey hunt went down. For him to have a different opinion, one would think he'd know what REALLY happened, or...he just an idiot talking to hear his head roar. Go, Pro, tell us......


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> The only difference between the story the media has and confidently puts in articles and the one I told you is that there were hunters who saw multiple people *with what they thought *were tranquilizer guns.


Let me point out a few key words to you....with what they thought. This is not a fact.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > The only difference between the story the media has and confidently puts in articles and the one I told you is that there were hunters who saw multiple people *with what they thought *were tranquilizer guns.
> 
> 
> Let me point out a few key words to you....with what they thought. This is not a fact.


Who said I thought it was FACT. There were multiple people, however, report this to the F&G the day Spidey ate dirt.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Do you also believe in UFOs and Aliens or Bigfoot. Multiple people have said they have seen them?????


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Word of advice Harry, you might want to get a more reliable source that a few people saying.....they thought it looked like a tranquilizer.

Another thing I would like to ask you.....well a few things :lol: :lol: 

1. What would be the suppose of tranquilizing this bull?

2. How far do you think a tranquilizer shoots?

3. Why would Doyle do something to ruin his business?

4. Do you think his client could shoot?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Do you also believe in UFOs and Aliens or Bigfoot. Multiple people have said they have seen them?????


Excellent point CS. 
Fred P., the F&G officer, said that multiple people in the area reported the same thing (different people from different hunting party(s)) . I guess they all got together and planned out the same story since they all wanted to be part of the conspiracy theory together.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Fred P., the F&G officer, said that multiple people in the area reported the same thing (different people from different hunting party(s)) . I guess they all got together and planned out the same story since they all wanted to be part of the conspiracy theory together.


Maybe the story was a results of other jealous hunters. Did Fred investigate Doyle and his group to see if their was a tranquilizer found????

Sorry, but your story makes no sense.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

Harry Nutzack said:


> PRO, YOUR CLIENT BASE IS SHRINKING EVERY YEAR DUE TO THE LACK OF OPPORTUNITY OF THE REGULAR HUNTER WHO MAKES LESS THAN $100,000+ A YEAR.
> 
> LOOK AT THE NUMBERS PRO.....SHRINKING EVERY YEAR. NOT EVERYONE HIRES GUIDES. NOT EVERYONE DRAWS LIMITED ENTRY TAGS EVERY YEAR (for obvious reasons). THE CHANCE OF DRAWING A LE TAG IS A VERY SIMILAR CHANCE OF BEING STRUCK WITH LIGHTNING.
> 
> ...


Hunting opportunity is not shrinking because of money. Every year fewer and fewer people hunt because either they decide not to or the youth isn't as interested, I don't think it is necessarily too expensive. We're lucky in any state in the west because everyone CAN hunt. The opportunity is there. Utah's game management makes it a little difficult for everyone to hunt big bucks and bulls, because there are so many hunters in Utah, that's why they set up the lottery system that will allow you to shoot a big bull or buck sometime. In the meanwhile...you have the opportunity to in some areas that may be a little more difficult, but you CAN. The spider bull is an example of what game management can bring. A lot of money for one animal. I realize that when this post started it was questioning the fair chase aspect of the hunt. I've heard stories, and read things, but I'm going to leave this one up to the organization that probably did a much more thorough investigation than I did...The B&C club. I say congrats, it was an animal of a lifetime for all of us. There were others who had equal opportuninty to harvest this bull with their LE tags. Because Dennis happened to hire mossback, they coordinated however many people they had to and got it done for him. I dunno if I would call it fair chase, but since B&C does, I'll accept that. I wasn't there and don't know how things went down. But the money he spent to harvest an animal will go a long ways. I know it scares me too that maybe one day everyone will have to spend a lot of money for a trophy tag. But under our current Govt. that should never happen. In an indirect way, we are the ones that manage our wildlife. We voted for Gov. Hunstman (majority of us) he appointed people who are over the DWR, they appointed people, it's a democracy, it's how it works. They feel that what they are doing is best for the people of utah. They feel like if they can auction/sell off governor and sportman type tags for a premium price, they can use that money in ways to benefit wildlife. All of that money goes to the DWR and they are using it as well as they can. I dont' think someone sits behind a desk and thinks...let's take opportunity away from hunters. Instead he's thinking, "hmmmm....How can i provide opportunity to hunters." He could open up the state for everyone to shoot whatever they want, in a matter of no time, there wouldn't be much left, then our opportunity would be gone. Hunting in the future is where our interests should be and IMO the DWR has the same interest and the selling of a few tags for a premium price will help us out in the long run= More opportunity, so PRO won't be out of a job, hopefully neither will I.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Fred P., the F&G officer, said that multiple people in the area reported the same thing (different people from different hunting party(s)) . I guess they all got together and planned out the same story since they all wanted to be part of the conspiracy theory together.
> 
> 
> Maybe the story was a results of other jealous hunters. Did Fred investigate Doyle and his group to see if their was a tranquilizer found????
> ...


Could have been jealous hunters making up stories. The reports came in after the bull was down and it was said and done that night. Per Fred, the reports came in from people who had tags in the area. Kind of like a report would come in about poachers probably. There were also people who heard on their FRS radios who heard people talking about containment, like there were folks rounding up cattle. One of the parties that reported the tranquilizer gun also reported the same radio chatter.
Hey, I got it from Fred P. He's the conspiracy starter and originator. Give him a call.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> > I guess the blogs and news comments were based on lies and not the actual story'
> 
> 
> [quote:38xdbvk1]You may very well be right, but ether way people who do not know the actual story are reading it as the truth. That does not look good.





> Uhhhmmm, ahhhhhhh........ OK, I'll bite, what is the TRUE story????
> 
> Not the one you tried to sell as based on 'reliable' sources, that's for **** sure. -_O-


The only difference between the story the media has and confidently puts in articles and the one I told you is that there were hunters who saw multiple people with what they thought were tranquilizer guns.

I'm a troll?? Lets have Pro, rather than try to be wit that he thinks he is and run down what I was told happened, tell us in detail how the @ssback, Austad, Spidey hunt went down. For him to have a different opinion, one would think he's know what REALLY happened, or just an idiot talking to hear his head roar. Go, Pro, tell us......[/quote:38xdbvk1]
-^|^- -^|^- -^|^- -^|^- -^|^- -^|^- -^|^-


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> or...he just an* idiot *talking to hear his head roar


So much for the warning shot????


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > > Fred P., the F&G officer, said that multiple people in the area reported the same thing (different people from different hunting party(s)) . I guess they all got together and planned out the same story since they all wanted to be part of the conspiracy theory together.
> ...


While I was not there, I KNOW your story is BS because of the words I put in bold. Mossback does NOT use FRS radios, EVER! That I know from FIRSTHAND experience/knowledge. Sorry folks, the troll has been flushed out from under the bridge.

One other question Magnum PI, why would a tranq gun be 'needed'? The range of using one effective is less than effective muzzle loader range, let alone a custom long rifle, so what would the purpose of darting it? :roll:


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

svmoose said:


> Harry Nutzack said:
> 
> 
> > PRO, YOUR CLIENT BASE IS SHRINKING EVERY YEAR DUE TO THE LACK OF OPPORTUNITY OF THE REGULAR HUNTER WHO MAKES LESS THAN $100,000+ A YEAR.
> ...


Did you read any of the links to the articles I posted??
Have you researched why the numbers of hunters continue to dwindle? (If you have not, I think it's not a half bad idea to do)
Having fewer and fewer hunters is NOT a good thing for the future of hunting. Having less and less area to hunt is NOT a good thing. Fewer and fewer opportinities to hunt an area with a few deer or elk to harvest is NOT a good thing. Paying more and more to travel, for equipment for guides, for whatever, is NOT a good thing. Leases, people landlocking public lands, landowners charging 100's if not 1000's of dollars to hunt their ground is NOT a good thing. The LE lottery is NOT a good thing.

Hummmm.... I wonder how many people will be purchasing licenses next year???


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Could have been jealous hunters making up stories. The reports came in after the bull was down and it was said and done that night. Per Fred, the reports came in from people who had tags in the area. Kind of like a report would come in about poachers probably. There were also people who heard on their FRS radios who heard people talking about containment, like there were folks rounding up cattle. One of the parties that reported the tranquilizer gun also reported the same radio chatter.
> Hey, I got it from Fred P. He's the conspiracy starter and originator. Give him a call.


Fred, must have found no such thing or Doyle and his crew would have been in big trouble and the B&C organization wouldn't have claimed this bull the New World Record plain and simple.

Harry, it only takes one person to start a rumor and while hiking then you meet other hunters and tell them the same BS.

You ought to change your name to the BIGBSER


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> Pro wrote: While I was not there, I KNOW your story is BS because of the words I put in bold. Mossback does NOT use* FRS radios*, EVER! That I know from FIRSTHAND experience/knowledge. Sorry folks, the troll has been flushed out from under the bridge.


Yeah, I thought that was kind of dumb for an outfit that charges what he does to use cheapo wannabe radios. :roll:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> the troll has been flushed out from under the bridge.


I just flushed down a troll :mrgreen:


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

You guys need to rail on Fred Pununzio if you have trouble with what reports he recieved. 

FRED PUNUNZIO.......Give him a call and tell him he's full of it, fine by me.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> You guys need to rail on Fred Pununzio if you have trouble with what reports he recieved.
> 
> FRED PUNUNZIO.......Give him a call and tell him he's full of it, fine by me.


I use to work for the DWR, and I have many friends in the DWR. I heard all about the spider bull hunt


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Hey, its all good folks.

Wishful thinking and running blind is a good survivor tactic used by many in the world to get by. 
If your bent and determined that everything is great. I guess so be it.

Like I said, I'm just trying to help others help themselves get a few more years hunting than they may not have letting things go they way they are.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bowgy said:


> > Pro wrote: While I was not there, I KNOW your story is BS because of the words I put in bold. Mossback does NOT use* FRS radios*, EVER! That I know from FIRSTHAND experience/knowledge. Sorry folks, the troll has been flushed out from under the bridge.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I thought that was kind of dumb for an outfit that charges what he does to use cheapo wannabe radios. :roll:


Mossback using FAA radios on a PRIVATE channel to communicate to each other. A FSR radio has minimal range, the FAA radios have better range and no one 'chattering' on the line.

I know Fred, and I am guessing you have added a bit to the 'story'. And, maybe he got caught up in the hoopla as well. Bottom line, Mossback and Denny were investigated and found to be clear of ANY wrong doing by the DWR, the Sevier County Sheriff's Department and Boone and Crockett. You have offered NOTHING but rumors and magpie chatter. Whose side has more credibility?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > You guys need to rail on Fred Pununzio if you have trouble with what reports he recieved.
> >
> > FRED PUNUNZIO.......Give him a call and tell him he's full of it, fine by me.
> 
> ...


GIVE HIM A CALL. I don't have his number. I actually hate the guy. I've had him call me several times when I've needed to talk to an officer. 
OR,.......GIVE ME YOUR PHONE NUMBER. I"LL CALL YOU IN ON ANOTHER LINE AND YOU CAN LISTEN YOURSELF.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> Like I said, I'm just trying to help others help themselves get a few more years hunting than they may not have letting things go they way they are.


Like the rest of your posts, nothing but BS! Spreading LIES/rumors, repeating LIES/rumors is NOT how one tries to 'help'. that is what one does when they are either childish, selfish, jealous, or all of the above.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Like I said, I'm just trying to help others help themselves get a few more years hunting than they may not have letting things go they way they are.


This is pretty funny coming from someone who quit hunting :lol: :lol:


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> bowgy said:
> 
> 
> > > Pro wrote: While I was not there, I KNOW your story is BS because of the words I put in bold. Mossback does NOT use* FRS radios*, EVER! That I know from FIRSTHAND experience/knowledge. Sorry folks, the troll has been flushed out from under the bridge.
> ...


YOUR STILL TOAST PRO. Give it 10 years. This spidey thing right or wrong, me right or wrong,...... the sport of hunting is going down the crapper because of folks like yourself who are too bullheaded or selfish to figure it out.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> YOUR STILL TOAST PRO. Give it 10 years. This spidey thing right or wrong, me right or wrong,...... the sport of hunting is going down the crapper because of folks like yourself who are too bullheaded or selfish to figure it out.


Whatever Prophet Nutzack. :roll:


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

Harry; didn't you know that Pro knows all and is considered the Great White Hunter around here.
if not you do now, look around you will see him make a comment on every subject that is posted.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

sagebrush said:


> Harry; didn't you know that Pro knows all and is considered the Great White Hunter around here.
> if not you do now, look around you will see him make a comment on every subject that is posted.


Another poster who rarely offers anything positive to threads. Can you cite ONE example on this subject where I was wrong or made stuff up? If not, what are you popping off about?


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

> Fred P., the F&G officer, said that multiple people in the area reported the same thing (different people from different hunting party(s)) . I guess they all got together and planned out the same story since they all wanted to be part of the conspiracy theory together.
> 
> Maybe the story was a results of other jealous hunters. Did Fred investigate Doyle and his group to see if their was a tranquilizer found????
> 
> ...


Hey troll flusher. I'd like proof that @ssback didn't have FRS radios. Half of the mountain were Doyle's guides. Who says they had 40-50 FAA radios that morning to distribute to all of them.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> sagebrush said:
> 
> 
> > Harry; didn't you know that Pro knows all and is considered the Great White Hunter around here.
> ...


90% of what you come off with is your opinion, is wrong, and stuff you come up with.

Pro, please give me one of your snidely comments to dispute that the numbers of hunters has not shrunk every single year for the past 15+years. The last 5 have been quite substantial in many states.

For whatever reason (that is if you can't dispute it, Mr. Know it all) people are giving it up and there is few to none coming into the sport because the tradition is waning or gone. 
There are also getting to be fewer and fewer of you wishful thinking, everything's great, attitude folks. Your no spring chicken anymore and I guess its why you have your selfish attitude towards things I guess. 
Wishful thinking and running blind is a good survivor tactic used by many in the world to get by. Problem is sooner more likely than later, reality catches up. Every year it will get tougher and tougher and the numbers will get fewer and fewer, the problem is it will still take you 7 or 8 years to start to see it I'm afraid.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

EVERY Mossback guide is REQUIRED to have a "Mossback" radio, along with quality optics, a reliable 4 wheel drive vehicle, among other MINIMUM REQUIRED gear. It is a condition of 'employment'.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> sagebrush said:
> 
> 
> > Harry; didn't you know that Pro knows all and is considered the Great White Hunter around here.
> ...


You've made quite a few friends here haven't you Pro. You've got your butt sniffers and the ones that really like you.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> EVERY Mossback guide is REQUIRED to have a "Mossback" radio, along with quality optics, a reliable 4 wheel drive vehicle, among other MINIMUM REQUIRED gear. It is a condition of 'employment'.


I'd like proof that all of them were carrying thier "Mossback" (snicker, snicker) radios.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Harry Nutzack said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said, I'm just trying to help others help themselves get a few more years hunting than they may not have letting things go they way they are.
> ...


Squirm Pro boy, squirm.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Harry Nutzack said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > EVERY Mossback guide is REQUIRED to have a "Mossback" radio, along with quality optics, a reliable 4 wheel drive vehicle, among other MINIMUM REQUIRED gear. It is a condition of 'employment'.
> ...


Since YOU made the story up, the proof is on YOU to prove they had FSR radios. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, not guilty until proven innocent. Sorry cowboy.



Harry Nutzack said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > sagebrush said:
> ...


If I worried about being popular here or elsewhere I would curtail my shared opinions.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

> Since YOU made the story up, the proof is on YOU to prove they had FSR radios. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, not guilty until proven innocent. Sorry cowboy.


You made the story up that they have FAA radios. The proof is on you to prove they all (all 50 of them) had their official "Mossback" (bwhaawaahawwahaa) radios that morning. Innocent until PROVEN guilty, not guilty until proven innocent. Sorry pussywillow.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

Pro i had enough discussion with you, all it ever ends up being is you twisting what someone says around and always asking for proof in what they say. I do know that people that push papers all day are only interested in graph's, stats and charts. just because it looks good on paper does does always work out the best for all involved.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Gents - this is getting personal here. Feel free to discuss but keep personal attacks away. 

As for the assertion that we are losing hunting opportunity. I'd agree with that. For me, I've pretty much given up on hunting in Utah. It is a combination of things - loss of habitat, urbanization of our population, difficulty to get kids involved, and the costs of hunting all combine. On that aspect Harry, I too worry about things. 

I am trying to get my son interested in hunting. To do that, I went to Montana. I am lucky enough to have access to some private land with more than enough mule deer. I can get a tag there every year at least for a doe, for just $10 more than a Utah resident tag. And I have a six week long season, and KNOW my son will get a shot at a deer. I want for him to have a chance to hunt every year with a considerable opportunity for success, so I've found where I can provide that for him. But I'm still worried. 

The areas in Idaho I grew up hunting have lost hunting opportunity exponuntially - mainly do to the herds of elk and deer both being a fraction of what they were in the 80s. The problem there has been wolves. But everywhere it is something. 

In Utah, tags have been limited now for 15 years in order to accomodate diminishing herd numbers. And all around the state, more habitat is being changed into housing and other habitats have other issues. Some excellent efforts are under way, but I fear they will only be able to stablize at best, and probably just slow the hemmoraging. 

Its an incredibly tough situation. The Spider Bull hunt typifies one place where some see hunting going. But it is nothing new. Its just coming closer to home. It has been said "Money can buy anything." And this year it bought a world record elk. :roll:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

sagebrush said:


> Pro i had enough discussion with you, all it ever ends up being is you twisting what someone says around and always asking for proof in what they say. I do know that people that push papers all day are only interested in graph's, stats and charts. just because it looks good on paper does does always work out the best for all involved.


 -/|\- -^|^-


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> sagebrush said:
> 
> 
> > Pro i had enough discussion with you, all it ever ends up being is you twisting what someone says around and always asking for proof in what they say. I do know that people that push papers all day are only interested in graph's, stats and charts. just because it looks good on paper does does always work out the best for all involved.
> ...


Pot........ meet kettle.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> a reliable 4 wheel drive vehicle


Hold up here. :shock: Did Doyle himself not give up his reliable 4 wheel drive(Ford) a few years ago. I swear he has a Dodge now. :lol:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> > a reliable 4 wheel drive vehicle
> 
> 
> Hold up here. :shock: Did Doyle himself not give up his reliable 4 wheel drive(Ford) a few years ago. I swear he has a Dodge now. :lol:


 -_O- I told him the same thing.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> weatherby25 said:
> 
> 
> > > a reliable 4 wheel drive vehicle
> ...


Well.....that should help clear up the chatter on this thread, no way can a person get too far up and around the mountain in one of those things.....


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

That sure explains the need for the helcoppters then. He has to get to the hills some how.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> ........I know Fred, and I am guessing you have added a bit to the 'story'. And, maybe he got caught up in the hoopla as well. Whose side has more credibility?


I know Fred too, I have since 1981 and I would give him more credibility for his 'story' (whatever it is) over anyone else on this site, although I haven't talked to him about it.

My own OPINION is I would not be bragging about Spidey's head on my wall even under the circumstances that are known to be facts and no amount of people telling me how "right" it was is going to change that.

I also fear for the changing hunting experience. I could afford some high dollar hunts but that isn't my style. I prefer to hunt with family and close friends and these experiences are becoming decreasingly available. I can see a time I no longer participate in the hunting experience and when that happens I suspect several of my family will give it up too. (Since I'm the one who finances their hunts.) So I would say I'm a statistic that adds support to Harry's point of view.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Doc said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > ........I know Fred, and I am guessing you have added a bit to the 'story'. And, maybe he got caught up in the hoopla as well. Whose side has more credibility?
> ...


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Doc said:
> 
> 
> > proutdoors said:
> ...


Pro, you can tell where you fit in the big picture, thats for sure.

I've made reports to Fred myself that I've personally witnessed. Nothing was done. I'm sure there are others out there that have done the same with the same results. 
Did I take pictures or video of the offender? No, so It's my word against theirs and that's where it ends, just like this thread. How can I convince you of my conversation with Fred? Do I have video evidence? No. Do I have recorder evidence? No. So it didn't happen right???

Wrong doing???? What would it take for it to be wrong??? OH THATS RIGHT, IT HAS TO BE AGAINST THE LAW FOR IT TO BE WRONG IN YOUR BOOK. Ethics, morals, and values are dirt underneath you and your clients feet.

And......how can your passion remain a passion (Passion (emotion), feeling very strongly about a subject or person, usually referring to feelings of intense desire and attraction, be very passionate about something) if you keep getting kicked in the face by all the negative, the losses of habitat, opportunity, etc every year, as well as the incredibly retarded people who believe that the system, hunting and hunting opportunity is actually getting better.

I'm hopeful and try to remain passionate, but I try not to be gulible and backwards to things.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

[quote="proutdoors............So, because you 'fear' for POSSIBLE changes in your hunting experiences you are ready to quit. There are already a number of changes that have occurred since I started hunting that is pointing me in that direction.  Your passion is overwhelming.[/color] :? [/quote]........Is this trying to justify your perceived superiority or is this your way to win friends and influence people? It demonstrates what others say that you like to attack people who don't agree with you. :roll:

No, I don't have the same "passion" as some here. I will continue outdoor activities but I don't have to have a tag, pack a rifle or kill anything to get satisfaction. But look around and you may realize many other people in the state who currently support hunting are not as passionate. But when hunting loses those people, you lose. Another point that supports Harry's arguments.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

> No, I don't have the same "passion" as some here. I will continue outdoor activities but I don't have to have a tag, pack a rifle or kill anything to get satisfaction. But look around and you may realize many other people in the state who currently support hunting are not as passionate. But when hunting loses those people, you lose. Another point that supports Harry's arguments.


I know a guy that spend over 12 grand on a hunt this year and shot a 26 inch 2 point and was happy as could be with it. Hunting is what you make of it.

Sorry nutsack but bird hunting is so much harder to do and stay up with then big game hunting. Your lossing far more hunting land then your gaining access to. I would be more worried about that, then I would be about what I heard from 3rd party people.

I don't think hunting is getting to be a rich man's sport. I think *LIFE* in itself is getting to be expensive and hard. You name me one individual sport that costs the same to participate in today as it did 10 years ago, even 5 years ago. This goes with alot of the team sports as well.

I grew up skiing, it was my life when I was younger. But when prices on lift ticket's and gear increased, it priced me out the sport. Did it really price me out of the sport? No, because I spend more money on hunting each year then I did on skiing, but I could no longer justify the cost of it anymore because my heart was not into it. I feel this is what is happening with hunting and fish right now, people did it when parents paid for it and when it was easy. But if there is a change, or you have to put more into, then people say to heck with it because they truely did not enjoy it or care about it.

That excuse is a justification ,and a cop out, and as I always say "justification is like masterbation, you only screw yourself"


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

utfireman said:


> I grew up skiing, it was my life when I was younger. But when prices on lift ticket's and gear increased, it priced me out the sport. Did it really price me out of the sport? No, because I spend more money on hunting each year then I did on skiing, but I could no longer justify the cost of it anymore because my heart was not into it. I feel this is what is happening with hunting and fish right now, people did it when parents paid for it and when it was easy. But if there is a change, or you have to put more into, then people say to heck with it because they truely did not enjoy it or care about it.


Interesting comparison--hunting and skiing. I grew up skiing a lot too...in fact, up until about the year 2000, I kept up my skiing habits. However, I haven't been since 2000. I think you can draw some comparisons between the two pastimes. Both industries, in fact, rely heavily upon their participants. If the skiing industry were to see marked declines in the numbers of skiings/snowboarders year in and year out, where would they be? I agree with what Doc has said--"When hunting loses those people, you lose."

We cannot afford to weed out people who do not have the same enthusiasm or love of hunting and fishing as we do...nothing could be worse for our sport and our hunting heritage. Hunting and fishing shouldn't be pastimes reserved for only those who are fanatic about it and willing to pay exorbitant prices....these outdoor recreations should also be available to the more casual types.

Your justification of weeding out hunters because they are not as enthusiastic about changes--many of which are unnecessary and not conservation driven--is just that...a cop out and it will--just like you say--just screw ourselves as hunters!


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I vote let it go and let it die it over and it the new world record. Now lets talk about the next big bull another outer stater will be killing.This spidy bull is getting beat crap out of it.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

utfireman said:


> > No, I don't have the same "passion" as some here. I will continue outdoor activities but I don't have to have a tag, pack a rifle or kill anything to get satisfaction. But look around and you may realize many other people in the state who currently support hunting are not as passionate. But when hunting loses those people, you lose. Another point that supports Harry's arguments.
> 
> 
> I know a guy that spend over 12 grand on a hunt this year and shot a 26 inch 2 point and was happy as could be with it. Hunting is what you make of it.
> ...


As you mention, hunting is taking a dive, period, no one particular hunt is less at risk than another.

I agree that recreational activities are getting to be more and more expensive. I am greatful, however that I can pay the same amount as others and have the same opportunity, for the most part as others. I am not excluded from certain parts of the park or lake or whatever that others are not. I do not pay extra to see or do things that others cannot if they chose not to pay. I do not have to put my name in a hat to see if I get the privilage to do certain things. It may very well end up being that way, but when and if it does, well.......I hope it doesn't.

Encroachement is indeed probably the worst enemy of the sportsman. Numbers of hunters, is, however, *not* the issue with hunting and it's going backwards of what it should and actually being geared more and more for the wealthy whether or not you chose to acknowledge this or not.

Justification or not, its happening. 
What are you doing about it??? What will give the regular "joe blow" and his kids the passion that Pro is talking about? More money so that he will have more opportunity??? That's the message I keep hearing and that is what this thread is about. Money=world records


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> Now lets talk about the next big bull another outer stater will be killing.This spidy bull is getting beat crap out of it.


I think that this IS what we are talking about.


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

utfireman said:


> > No, I don't have the same "passion" as some here. I will continue outdoor activities but I don't have to have a tag, pack a rifle or kill anything to get satisfaction. But look around and you may realize many other people in the state who currently support hunting are not as passionate. But when hunting loses those people, you lose. Another point that supports Harry's arguments.
> 
> 
> .........That excuse is a justification ,and a cop out, and as I always say "justification is like masterbation, you only screw yourself"


I'm not making excuses. Why would anyone have to make an excuse or justify that kind of decision? "Uhhh honey, we need to have a talk about why I won't be hunting this next year.  " Perhaps you feel I have to justify it to your satisfaction? Not even. But as far as justification goes, this thread is loaded with justification why the Spider hunt was ethical. Does your quote apply equally?....I would answer yes.

This last deer hunt I went on there were over 35 people in camp. Of that 35 people there were 3 tags. (Southern area where we get a tag every other year). Compare that with 10 years ago and you might get a glimpse of what Harry is talking about concerning losing hunters. Compare it with 30-40 years ago ...well there is no comparison.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

> What are you doing about it??? What will give the regular "joe blow" and his kids the passion that Pro is talking about? More money so that he will have more opportunity??? That's the message I keep hearing and that is what this thread is about. Money=world records
> "The value of any trophy from the field depends on its size, period."


I have taken 3 people out this year who have never hunted before and took them out bowhunting. One of the guys had his son tell him that he wanted to go hunting so I took him out chasing Chuckars. He never hit one, but he managed to get a cottontail at the end of the day and he was grinning ear to ear.

Getting people involved is how we are going to recruit people, It could be new people who have never hunted to your family member who says that hunting is getting to complicated for what ever reason, or I dont have the time anymore, or its to much money. You are going to have to tell them that it is bull crap excuse and say "you know what? we are still goin to do this let me know how I can help."

People fear change, it could be costs, or maybe their hunting season has changed, or even a more popular excuse is the "the made me move out of my hunting area". Regardless of the situation, there are still places to hunt as a family, there is still places to go, and there is no reason why people should stop hunting unless they simply do not have the money, or they have simply lose intrest. Regardless of the excuse people just need to stop being lazy and expecting everything to be for free or catered around them.

I will say this, I am greatful for the money that these tags bring in, becuase of this money, I am some day going to draw a goat tag that I would have never have been able to draw before, I am also looking forward to an elk tag which is a prize in itself. Before all of this high client hunting the elk hunting and OIL hunting in Utah sucked. The money raised from these tag's has stimulated our herds, and our economy, and the big the bulls that come off the mountain each year, just means more money raised the following year.

Society as a whole is getting lazy, they want things to be easy and come natural to them. When they don't, the only thing that they feel that they can do is sit back and complain. This is the down fall to hunting and other recreational activites. Granted prices on guns, ammo, and tags has gone up in the 16 years that I have been hunting, but so hows everything else.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

utfireman said:


> > What are you doing about it??? What will give the regular "joe blow" and his kids the passion that Pro is talking about? More money so that he will have more opportunity??? That's the message I keep hearing and that is what this thread is about. Money=world records
> > "The value of any trophy from the field depends on its size, period."
> 
> 
> ...


Yes indeed, this is where you and Pro's services make it easy on those lazy buggers, at least for those who can afford it. 
For the others who work hard with what they have, or if they get lucky on a near once in a lifetime hunt they are otherwise working very hard for the scraps that are left to them. Who would you say works harder, your clients or the guy that lives down the road from you?


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

zzzzzzzzzzzz....yawn....oh, is this thread still going? :roll: :roll:


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## Randy (Sep 22, 2007)

I`m With Harry on this One.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm with .45 on this!!!!!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I do not tolerate complainers. A few years ago I was involved in a serious car accident. I broke my back, 8 ribs, collar bone, shoulder blade and fractured my neck. I'm lucky that Im still alive. I could have very easily threw in the towel and quit hunting, but then I would be giving up on life. My dad never raised a quitter.
Hunting has always been my passion and even with this serious accident it has never kept me from enjoying the outdoors. I know of many, many, many hunters who are disabled and even though hunting is a little harder now they still LOVE the sport of hunting. It's very sad to see a lot of abled body hunters losing this same passion when their reasons to quit are very minor compared to many disabled hunters that I have met. 

I think a lot of disabled hunters have a lot more to complain about, but yet they seem to have a lot more passion then a lot of other hunters on this forum. 

Why is there so much hatred surrounding the spider bull or guiding in general? Doyle Moss donated a 12 day hunt to me free of charge. Im very grateful to the man. He is a very sincere, kind hearted man. I challenge many of you Mossback haters to actually get to know him. I wasn't a fan of Mossback until I got to know Doyle personally.

Pro is like a brother to me and if I ever needed any help then he would be there for me.

Why do we have to be so bitter against the way other people hunt? Why not just hunt and let others hunt and at the end of the day we can both share eachothers memories and learn from eachother's hunts.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

> I'm glad to hear that you offer some charity work for that tax right off.


First off I didnt give anything away for a tax right off. I offered my services or free, so that three people could go out and see what hunting is all about.



> The way things are going, its a tough arguement to give them the postive side with people when they tell me "its the cost", "hunting seasons have changed", or "they made me move out of my hunting area." What would you tell them to keep that postive direction, give me some money and I can clear that up for you?


When people are lazy and self centered, no matter how much talk that you do they will not change.



> Yes it does mean more money, but the same opportunity for everyone in Utah which is little to none. The exception being those who can operate outside those boundaries and get tags another way. Especially the folks from out of state that want a piece of that Utah pie


How so, there is more opportunity now for the average joe to have a great hunt now then 10 years ago. There is bigger animals on the mountain and more OIL hunts.



> Yes indeed, this is where you and Pro's services make it easy on those lazy buggers, at least for those who can afford it.
> For the others who work hard with what they have, or if they get lucky on a near once in a lifetime hunt they are otherwise working very hard for the scraps that are left to them. Who would you say works harder, your clients or the guy that lives down the road from you?


Personally I have seen more of these guided hunters work harder for their animals then any of my friends and the guy down the street have.
The average joe hunter is the one getting lazy and wants things for free, they want to draw a tag that they thing is owed to them. And they want to have all the big deer line up along side the road so that they can harvest one and through it on the four wheeler. Again, all this complaining is by people who are to lazy to adapt. Its just easier to piss and moan. And think how good socialized hunting would be.


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

> I'm glad to hear that you offer some charity work for that tax right off.


First off I didnt give anything away for a tax right off. I offered my services for free, so that three people could go out and see what hunting is all about. I won't claim anything for taxes. I was happy to do it, and the same guys are planning on doing it again this year.



> The way things are going, its a tough arguement to give them the postive side with people when they tell me "its the cost", "hunting seasons have changed", or "they made me move out of my hunting area." What would you tell them to keep that postive direction, give me some money and I can clear that up for you?


When people are lazy and self centered, no matter how much talk that you do they will not change.



> Yes it does mean more money, but the same opportunity for everyone in Utah which is little to none. The exception being those who can operate outside those boundaries and get tags another way. Especially the folks from out of state that want a piece of that Utah pie


How so, there is more opportunity now for the average joe to have a great hunt now then 10 years ago. There is bigger animals on the mountain and more OIL hunts as well as LE hunts.



> Yes indeed, this is where you and Pro's services make it easy on those lazy buggers, at least for those who can afford it.
> For the others who work hard with what they have, or if they get lucky on a near once in a lifetime hunt they are otherwise working very hard for the scraps that are left to them. Who would you say works harder, your clients or the guy that lives down the road from you?


Personally I have seen more of these guided hunters work harder for their animals then any of my friends and the guy down the street have.
The average joe hunter is the one getting lazy and wants things for free, they want to draw a tag that they thing is owed to them. And they want to have all the big deer line up along side the road so that they can harvest one and throw it on the four wheeler. Over half of the people on the Vernon unit fit in this category. Again, all this complaining is by people who are to lazy to adapt. Its just easier to piss and moan. And think how good socialized hunting would be.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Coyoteslayer, while I don't always agree with you on every issue, you inspire me and make it hard for me to stomach the whiners who say they are quitting on hunting because it's "too hard", all while you and others go through great efforts to be able to hunt ANYTHING.

Doc mentioned there were 35 people in deer camp and only 3 tags among the group. I am not sure what that has to do with the spider bull, or how the spider bull that was killed in 2008 was the cause of such 'travesty', but Doc may want to look at why there are fewer deer tags issued today than 20 years ago. Hint, it has NOTHING to do with guided hunts and has EVERYTHING to do with habitat loss/decline. The money generated from these 'money tags' has done MORE to benefit wildlife thus INCREASING hunting opportunities than all the whiners and their 'efforts' have done since the first 'money tags' were issued in 1997. In fact, since 1997 *17 million dollars *has been raised for habitat from these tags alone. No other state has spent anywhere near that kind of money on habitat since 1997.


> Habitat and wildlife populations are NOT created overnight, and they are not solved in similar fashion. In land management and wildlife management, problems and solutions often take ten years to create, and then ten years to see results of the implemented solutions.
> Don Peay Sportsmen's Voice Winter 2008 issue


 Another great quote from the Sportsmen's Voice, "A critic is a guy who rides in after the battle is over, and shoots the wounded." There are an awful lot of critics around here, but very few leaders!


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## Doc (Sep 11, 2007)

Whatever....

Brings to mind a quote, "Don't piss on my boot and tell me it's raining".


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

17 million dollars 

Thats great.

How much does the regular Joe Sportsman contribute? You can tell who is most important to Pro. Its the dude with the big pocketbook that keeps him in business.

Like I said before Pro, you better think big like the guys who throw out that big money, buy that huge house on the hill, quit associating with us regular peons and plan for your future or you, I guarentee wont have one.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

This whole thread is going know where. The problem with trying to make an argument within the "Spider Bull" framework is that there are so many issues, money, greed, guide practice and techniques, B&C arguments, ethics, Govenors Tags, LE hunts, egos, emotions, etc. You have guys talking about several issues at once and it just gets all mixed and confused. For me, the team hunting by outfitters is the only issue here. It is the root of the problem. If team hunting was controlled, guiding as we have seen it in the past would not be a problem. The madness on the Monroe mountain was because we had more guides and bounty hunters than we did permitted hunters. The whole idea of a LE was to provide the opportunity for a quality hunt without the mobs and the chance at a really nice trophy animal. Clearly, huge camps of "guides" scouring the hills detracts from this mission statement. The outfitters will not voluntarily stop this practice, it works and it affords the outfitters the opportunity to sell larger and larger "packages" at larger and larger profits. It is called growth and it is one of the cornerstones of business. As we see the outfitter business become more corporate and less “ma and pa” you will see more aggressive business practices applied to this business. Regulatory law is the only answer.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*Socialized bitching*

If anyone on this forum or elsewhere has evidence that the Spider bull was taken illegally, then bring it forth and report it to the authorities, provide evidence and let due process take it's course.

For the PETH (People for the extended torture of hunters), I would say that more government regulation is not the answer to wildlife conservation, multiple use land management or the ability to keep recreation on public land affordable. I see no need to start a civil war amongst people who value wildlife. Oh yes each of us has our preferred way to harvest game, some use a bow and arrow, others a black-powder rifle and for each and every weapon and season we have governing regulations designed to protect the resource and allow public participation in utilizing a renewable resource.

The pages of controversy in this thread, remind me of the Big Game board meetings I attended back 25 years ago when each special interest would not budge one inch for the good of the resource or the good of the other guy, so the board totally ignored the general public and implemented as they **** well pleased. I read a whole bunch here about class gorilla war fare, but I would guess that it is more theory than factual in regards to some of the arguments that are being made.

If the Spider bull was killed illegally; prove it and let things fall where they may. If on the other hand you are intent on ending our sport, count me out, I have worked to **** hard and to long to wipe the _ _ _ _ s of people who are just dead set on destroying all that has been worked for. You can continue to slander to justify your financial means, but this country was founded on the rights of opportunity and not redistribution of wealth through governmental means&#8230;.


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)




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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

> As we see the outfitter business become more corporate and less "ma and pa" you will see more aggressive business practices applied to this business. Regulatory law is the only answer.


If more regulations apply to outfitters and only allowing them only so many guides per hunter, then I am fine with that and I will not lose any sleep over it. But if regulation's are imposed on guides, then they need to be set with the average joe hunters as well. I see more average joe hunters with more spotters and helpers, then most outfitters have.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*Purists and blue bloods*

Bullpucky
Jan 13th, 2009
http://www.billingsgazette.net/h/blogs/ ... 7#comments

"Often as I have watched the hunting world assimilate news of world record animals harvested, we begin to eat our own. We do not need PETA or the American Human Society to darken the publics view; we have only people like ourselves and Mr. Henckel to thank for the charade. 
The Spider bull in and of its self is a tribute to Utah's game management program, which if you have looked in the record books lately, Utah must be doing something right. The rumors and accusations that have been tossed about through the winds of gossip serve only to belittle hunting and call into question the integrity of a man not one person who has posted here knows including the author of such dribble.
For the record, of which none of you seem to hold any validity too or for! The Spider bull has been witnessed by many and photographed several times, before the hunting season ever started and in-fact the first person to have an opportunity at the bull was a Utah resident archery hunter who missed the mark during the archery season. Next, during the first rifle season held during the rut a hunter miss this bull for the second time. Mr. Austad did not harvest this bull until the last day of the third of four elk season in which this bull was open to public hunting. It is rumored that this bull was relocated be someone that was not working for the Mossback Team.
As for all of the conjecture in the posts here, wildlife is the property of the state in which they reside and the state can do with its wildlife as they see fit; which could mean that elk and deer could be slaughtered and fed to the Indians as was done in our past history.
The hunting purists and blue bloods should thank states like Utah that they even have policies which allow sports hunting whereby a new world record can be harvested by a public hunter&#8230;&#8230;.Bullpucky"


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Bullpucky is the ONLY one who responded with any brains!


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