# No Grouse, But I Bagged Some ATVer's



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Went up for a quick grouse hunt today. Those **** ruffies are tough this time of year. Due to the snow, I could see where they were running and flying. Saw good numbers of tracks, but only moved a few birds. I flushed one grouse seven times without getting a point or a shot. Pretty hard situation for a two-year-old pup. 

The good news is I bagged a few ATVer's. There were quite a few cars up there, and they were getting Christmas trees. I drove up and parked, and there were at least two ATVs doing donuts, etc, in the meadow. Several small kids were along, but no helmets. At one point, and adult was giving a ride to two small kids, one in front, the other behind. The one in the back fell off, but wasn't hurt. Also, they had run up the ridge through the quakies for a quarter mile; no trail, who needs a stinking trail? 

I called the Poaching Hotline, who referred me to the Sheriff. I called the Sheriff, who told me they'd have someone respond. When I was leaving, I called to see what had happened. One of the local CO's had responded, and wrote four citations totalling about $400. They thanked me for my call, and said it was excellent. I thought so, too. The thing is, the mentality is warped. These were just families, out for a pleasant day. What is it these days when you need to take an ATV with you, and ride roughshod over the country to have fun?

It was interesting, because when the officer responded, she was told that there was somebody hunting grouse on the ridge above, and the ATVer's thought that was unsafe. She told them that I was in the National Forest, and was where I was supposed to be and perfectly legal. So, in their view it's okay to endanger your kids, and tear up the landscape just for jollies, but a guy shouldn't take his dog up for an afternoon grouse hunt?? Crazy!!!

Aren't cell phones cool?


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Good to hear! It seems like many of these stories end up with the reporter frustrated that no one came for hours and when they did they wanted, pics, videos, blood samples, ...to where the reporter ends up thinking they would never report again.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Well done! Thanks for turning the pinheads in.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

The CO was very appreciative. The dispatcher gave me her cell #, and the CO invited me to use it anytime. She also helped investigate a nice six-point bull we found illegally killed up there. That was back in October, during the spike bull hunt above Strawberry. So far, no leads on that case. If anybody hears anything, there is a reward for that one.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Awesome story!! That is so ironic that they told the CO the grouse hunter was unsafe. :roll: I hope that money stings them to loose.


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## castnblast (Jan 15, 2009)

That made the whole trip worth it, even if you didn't get any grouse.


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## Packbasket (Oct 29, 2009)

good call.

it's a matter of perspective, as you pointed out. I think you killed grouse too.

For instance, I read a report of a guy reflushing a single bird 7 times, and know from years of ruffed grouse biological study that this bird will have less than a 10% survival chance until the next day as it has not only used a massive amount of energy but also has overheated.

In a snow cover condition you describe it amounts to pneumonia that night. 

Grouse not bagged by the second flush should be let go, unless you are going to continue chasing it til complete exhaustion, which after 3 flushes is not far away. 

In study after study birds after the third flush are operating at less than 50% flight capacity and are almost a sure thing, seven flushes is extremely poor sportsmanship, if it was the same bird.

Not being there I'd guess they were not the same bird but if it was then the bird is dead, whether the hunter ends up with it is the only question.

Amounts to the same thing as chasing a deer with a truck until it collapsed then driving away, but you did well reporting the illegal ATV use, that hurts everyone ATVers and Non alike, you did not do so well on hunter ethics. I'd call it a thumbs up and a thumbs down, puts you even.

as you say, it's a matter of perspective.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Good job. It's these types of situations and outcomes that will bring awareness to those who do not choose to investigate what the laws are or disregard them altogether. Hopefully this is becoming more widespread as to avoid unnecessary restrictions on ATV's.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

That's interesting, Packbasket. I had no idea that reflushing grouse increased mortality. He (or she) didn't seem tired. It flew about 75 yards each time, into the bases of thick trees, then wild flushed when we approached. I'm pretty sure it was the same bird, as there weren't any other grouse tracks surrounding the trees it flushed from.

Please send me the references on this topic. Is the same true of other species? Guys often speaking of breaking up a covey and hunting up the singles. I'd rather reduce to possesion birds I kill, so if flushing a bird more than twice is bad, I won't do it, of course. Thanks for the info.



Packbasket said:


> good call.
> 
> it's a matter of perspective, as you pointed out. I think you killed grouse too.
> 
> ...


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## TLB (Jul 13, 2008)

Packbasket,

Where did you learn so much about birds, mortality rates and such. I found it fascinating, and thank you for sharing such insight into these fantastic birds. My son is very interested in becoming a wildlife biologist, and I hope he follows through, I would love to share in his experiences in this field.


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## 2-Fer (Oct 29, 2007)

Good on you. We were out on the east fork above Tropic Reservoir last week getting Christmas trees and you could see where some IDIOT had driven through the meadows and tore the heck out of stuff. People like that tick me off.


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## Ryfly (Sep 13, 2007)

Very interesting info Packbasket but don't you think it might be better to pass along the information without questioning someone's ethics?


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

I don't think he meant it as a criticism. Ethical violations are willful acts. As I was unaware that reflushing that bird would reduce it's survivability, I don't think it reflects negatively on my hunter ehtics. It still seems weird to me that reflushing a bird is hard on them. The thing only flew about 75 yards each time, and it seems like they should be able to do that many times without harm. Also, if I counted the bird in my limit, it's probably okay?

Then there is the issue of fly fishing, where hooking mortality is ~10%. And, many fly fishers have no intention of eating a fish. Yet, catch and release is viewed by many as a more "ethical" approach?


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

Packbasket can you post a link where we can see these studies you speak of sounds like a good read, and if true something more guys should know about. I have never heard of such a thing.


Bret


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## coolgunnings (Sep 8, 2007)

Bret said:


> Packbasket can you post a link where we can see these studies you speak of sounds like a good read, and if true something more guys should know about. I have never heard of such a thing.
> 
> Bret


+1


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Bret, Scott, I have been corresponding with Bill. He's a retired wildlife biologist, and knows what he's talking about. He says there are studies on both sides. I imagine that the more vulnerable birds could indeed be overly stressed by reflushing multiple times. Birds of the ear, sick birds, etc. It's difficult for me to believe that a healthy, mature bird can't fly 75 yards multiple times. But I havn't seen the studies. I may stop at two flushes till I know more. 

I really appreciate his input, and he has provided me with a list of references on ruffed grouse I'll share when I have time.


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

sounds great


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## vdogs (Sep 22, 2007)

Interesting stuff. Who knew! Kind of ironic though really..I mean he tried like the dickens to kill the bird! Then we worry..if it may have died!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

GSPman said:


> Interesting stuff. Who knew! Kind of ironic though really..I mean he tried like the dickens to kill the bird! Then we worry..if it may have died!


Touche!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

The irony is not lost. I went up for my last grouse hunt of the year Saturday, and whiffed a shot on the first bird my GSP ever really locked up on. Did I try for a reflush? You bet. I really wanted that bird.


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## castnblast (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm glad to hear that you got her into some birds again. Too bad on the shot.


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