# Poaching



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I am on my phone so can't link it right now, but just saw an article in my app on Standard Examiner about increased poaching in Utah:

"Authorities say that more than 1,287 animals were killed illegally last year, compared to 958 two years ago."


We only see a few stories a year. Pretty unfortunate this is how it is. We care more about complaining about long range and CWMU's, meanwhile we are losing AT LEAST 1300 animals a year illegally. Wish we could do more to stop it, instead of seeing an increase.


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## mtnrunner260 (Feb 15, 2010)

It sucks for sure but short of the DWR being able to fund twice as many COs the eyes and ears of hunters are the best bet for poachers to be caught.
Now if we could get a judge to provide a sentence that was an actual punishment that might deter people that might be the biggest help.


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## RobK (Jul 3, 2008)

the topic of Poaching is never a dead horse and those involved should get the book thrown at them IMO. some of our fellow sportsmen (??) make us all look bad in the eyes of non hunters and the anti's . sadly I have met some of the most UN sportsmen like hunters since I moved here 10 years ago  .


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Opt 2 made it better for poachers. Director Karpowitz said in the meeting the day the board voted on Opt 2, that with the reduction in total permits there would be a reduction in services (ie: Officers) to go with it.


-DallanC


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

One of those cases was a pelican, I feel for the poor officer that had to investigate that


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

DallanC it it right on the head,


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## wingmanck (Sep 7, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> One of those cases was a pelican, I feel for the poor officer that had to investigate that


Why? Poaching is poaching regardless of the species or excuse! Just because it wasn't a trophy big game animal doesn't make it any less bad imho


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

berrysblaster said:


> One of those cases was a pelican, I feel for the poor officer that had to investigate that


i was out at farmington bay one opener, walking back with a limit when i passed two hunters. they were lamenting the fact that snow goose season wasn't open. Since I rarely see them at FB and had neither seen or heard any that day i asked, why. They pointed up at group of pelicans that had been flying about 150 yards away. I chuckled until it was obvious that they weren't joking.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

The reason there is no movement is US. Whenever this discussion comes up you get the dudes that want to argue what the definition of "is" is. I personally am for mandatory felony, with minimum of jail time, preferably prison. My thought being that an elk in this state goes from $2500 to over 6 figures. However with the WEAK prosecutors and judges it is treated like candy stealing. The cost of this wildlife puts them into the grand theft class and should be treated like it. I would also like to see the CO's and DWR get to keep all assets used in the crime, such as the drug cops do with drug crimes. They could keep or sell the trucks, guns, houses etc to fund more of them. 
Now, here comes the BS arguments about technical defintions, misunderstandings, etc. WE ALL KNOW what poaching is, illegal killing, so lets not get cute about anything else. We can protect all the acres in Utah, cut all the tags SFW wants, and make every unit LE, but if we let this cancer continue what do we accomplish?


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

If a tree falls in the forest. And nobody is around to hear it. Did it make a sound? 

I doubt poaching is more prevalent today then it has been in the past. A poaching case needs to be reported and investigated in order for us to "hear" it. Hire another CO officer and he will produce poaching cases. 

Many here can easily turn a blind eye to predation. So if the poaching case is not reported many here should not concern themselves with it. not in a practical wildlife conservation context. Now one can get all upset in a philosophical sense but in reality poaching is having little to no effect on our wildlife just as natural predation does. 

I'd contend we are better at reporting and investigating poaching making us aware of more cases. Not that poaching is more prevalent

If a person gets drunk and drives home from the bar. Does not get into a wreck and does not get pulled over. Statistically that DUI does not exist. The same situation applies to poaching. Plenty of poaching going on back in the day but was not reported.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Dallan,
Since Opt 2 went into effect how many overall tags have been reduced in the state? Over all, not just deer. What is the actual dollar amount that has been generated from tag sales now compared to pre Opt 2? How many less COs do we have today compared to the year before Opt 2?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

hossblur said:


> The reason there is no movement is US. Whenever this discussion comes up you get the dudes that want to argue what the definition of "is" is. I personally am for mandatory felony, with minimum of jail time, preferably prison. My thought being that an elk in this state goes from $2500 to over 6 figures. However with the WEAK prosecutors and judges it is treated like candy stealing. The cost of this wildlife puts them into the grand theft class and should be treated like it. I would also like to see the CO's and DWR get to keep all assets used in the crime, such as the drug cops do with drug crimes. They could keep or sell the trucks, guns, houses etc to fund more of them.
> Now, here comes the BS arguments about technical defintions, misunderstandings, etc. WE ALL KNOW what poaching is, illegal killing, so lets not get cute about anything else. We can protect all the acres in Utah, cut all the tags SFW wants, and make every unit LE, but if we let this cancer continue what do we accomplish?


FWIW, per Utah Code 23-14-13 (2)(c), the DWR is allowed to keep all of the assets/forfeitures (minus court costs) used in the crime, but only if the court or the Wildlife Board orders it. Maybe it's time to put the monkey on the backs of the Wildlife Board!


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

And that is the problem. If poaching isn't important enough to order that by the WB, I guess we know where one problem lies.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> Dallan,
> Since Opt 2 went into effect how many overall tags have been reduced in the state? Over all, not just deer. What is the actual dollar amount that has been generated from tag sales now compared to pre Opt 2?


I cant remember specifically... for deer its around 10,000 wasnt it? 96k down to 86k?



> How many less COs do we have today compared to the year before Opt 2?


Thats a good question, I dunno... I only remember hearing Jim state there would be a reduction in services if Opt went into effect. The audio is there if anyone wants to hear it for themselves.

-DallanC


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

*I give up!*

I do here by admit that I trapped, out of season three, mice and ended the lives of two blackwidow spiders. I think I also ran over a poptgut once.
Does someone have the hottline number I'm turning myself in......

The bald eagle was not me....


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## fastcamo (Aug 27, 2012)

.375 H&H solids make quick work of Poachers engine blocks


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Dallan,
I never disputed what Jim said. I was setting right in front of him when he said it. It was based off of the original Opt 2 proposal. Which in fact was never actually implemented. Buck to doe ratio minimums where dropped before the plan was ever implemented. Sooo, the original discussed possible tag cuts did not take place. However that is not even the question I asked. I said over all tag sales. What was the revenue generated before opt 2 as opposed to now? You're blaming Opt 2 with out knowing any facts. For all you know revenue is up with the increase of tag cost, maybe more tags overall have sold (wasatch antlerless elk) ??? Maybe funding for some depts shifted and we actually have more COs now? Maybe that's the reason more poaching cases are being pursued and confirmed? Who knows? That's about the third or fourth time I've seen you trot out opt 2 in relation to poaching. Get you facts together if that's gonna be your stance.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Thank you Muley,

Revenue is up since opt. 2 ....

And the DWR has been, and looking to hire more CO's....

link: 
http://wildlife.utah.gov/become-an-officer.html


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Muley-So are we now saying the unlimited cow control permits on the Wasatch are a result of Option 2? That would put goofyelk in an interesting dilemma. 

Goof, is this posting evidence of hiring 'more' officers? Or a public posting in an attempt to replace some they've lost? Just a general FYI? Because I'm not sure this link says what you are implying it does. (There are no law enforcement positions currently open in the DNR.)


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

T,
Not at all, I'm saying Dallan needs to look at overall revenue generated by the division. It wouldn't suprise me to see some of you on this forum to enturpt it that way as you seem to have a knack of missing the point or looking at the big picture.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Poachers beget poachers!


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

I don't understand poachers who shoot an animal and then just leave it. I can understand a poacher who goes out and kills a deer out of season to feed his family, I can even understand (not condone just understand the motive) of killing a trophy and taking its head. But a lot of these recent cases seem to be a wanton waste of meat and/or the trophy. So, what motivates someone to take a shot on an animal and then just leave it out there?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Farmers protecting crops?


-DallanC


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Farmers protecting crops?
> 
> -DallanC


True and this is under DWR instructions.

Goonsquad,
Why do people just leave jackrabbits and prairie dogs left to rot after shooting them?


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> True and this is under DWR instructions.
> 
> Goonsquad,
> Why do people just leave jackrabbits and prairie dogs left to rot after shooting them?


I don't know. Because they suck?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> Why do people just leave jackrabbits and prairie dogs left to rot after shooting them?


For me, its usually because I forgot to bring along a broom. :mrgreen:

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> T,
> Not at all, I'm saying Dallan needs to look at overall revenue generated by the division. It wouldn't suprise me to see some of you on this forum to enturpt it that way as you seem to have a knack of missing the point or looking at the big picture.


Actually, it's not that I am missing the point. It's that we have a fundamental difference of opinion on option 2, and I don't think you get to have your cake and eat it too. Option 2 cut deer tags. You don't get to reference the increase in other species to show revenue is up after option 2 without owning the ramifications of those increases in other areas. I get the point just fine. Like I said, you don't get to claim just the positive without owning the negative.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> Why do people just leave jackrabbits and prairie dogs left to rot after shooting them?


There isn't much sense trying to figure out what you can eat when there are so many pieces that you find scattered all over the area when you come close to vaporizing them. Even jack rabbits have not much left after you hit them with a big game rifle round.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

T,
How many tags did it cut??? Also the comment was since opt 2 there was a cut in COs and that could have led to more poaching. So I'll ask again, more or less COs now and what is budget that decides that. 

I'm not asking for an opinion I'm talking about facts and hard numbers.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I didn't make the claim about option two meaning less officers. Although I think the source of it was already answered. I don't have the exact numbers on tags, but I've seen them posted on here before from someone that did a GRAMA request. Hopefully one with the specific numbers can chime in. Goofy? You usually are good for info like that. 

Now back to you...no opinions, just facts. How many more elk tags given out after option 2? (Since correlation and causation aren't a big deal around here anyway...)


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Just so happens I do have those numbers TS.

2011, last year of regional hunting---80,425 total deer hunters

2012, first year of opt.2-----------79,066 total deer hunters
A net loss (cut) of 1,359

BUT , in 2013, there was an increase in deer permits to 83,180
So, a net gain of + 2,755 permits more than regional deer hunting prior to opt.2
( numbers pulled from the 2013 anual big game report )


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Huh, interesting. Thanks for the input goofy. 

Let's hear the next guess Dallan. T, I never said you made that claim. You jumped in on a question I asked Dallan.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Right out of the DWR's own Mule Deer plan: http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/mule_deer_plan.pdf



> Following several years of drought and an unusually hard winter in 1992-1993, it was evident that Utah's deer herd could no longer sustain unlimited hunting opportunity, and in 1994, buck deer permits were capped for the first time. In 1994, 97,000 general season buck permits were issued among 5 hunting regions. The 97,000 permit cap remained in place through 2005, but due to difficulties in monitoring over-the-counter permit sales, *buck hunter numbers exceeded 97,000 permits in some years*. Permit sales were closer to the 97,000 cap after implementation of a drawing in 2000. Because of severe drought during the early 2000s, the permit cap was temporarily reduced to 95,000 in 2005 with 1,000 permits removed from both the Central and Northeastern regions. Due to continued drought concerns and, in some areas, severe winter weather, _*permits continued to be held below the 97,000 through 2012 when unit by unit hunting was implemented*_. Unit by unit hunting removed the statewide permit cap, and, instead established permits to reach the buck to doe objective on each individual unit. _*The total number of general season deer permits available in 2013 was 84,600.*_


In 2012 the cap was approx 95-97,000. 2013, after Opt 2 was implemented, the cap was 84,600.

96,000 - 84,600 = 11,400 lost tags.

-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Dallan,
You might want to look at the annual reports, were the hard numbers are posted.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Reality is so pesky at times.....


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## CROC (Sep 12, 2007)

Maybe Poaching is up because there is less opportunity and the better deer herds/ bigger bucks are easier to come by after the seasons are over. I am just glad that I am seeing it in the news, wish we were seeing it daily, I always read the articles and think if the public could see more cases more cases would be solved.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Or we could fire all CO's never report any poaching cases on tv or in the paper. Then have USU do a study showing that poaching is compensatory. Plus does anyone realize poachers would be less effective if habitat was better. 

Sounds pretty ignorant doesn't it?


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Poaching up ticks have nothing to do with options, or numbers of CO's, or the weather or even Obama(although it's tough to rule out Obama)...it's due to stuff like another poachers kid got old enough to drive and him and his buddies drive out of town and shoot up the countryside after school. I understand there are guys out there poaching for the horn, but the unexplainable dead doe or small to medium sized buck just left to waste is almost always kids(some kids might be 40 years old) just shootin up anything that moves.


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