# Market research



## elkunited (Aug 16, 2019)

Hey all, I'm conducting market research on the annoyances of fly fishing with a buddy of mine. We just want to know (besides the fish getting away lol) the things that annoy you when it comes to fly fishing. I'll give more updates with time, but I'd appreciate if anyone wants to contribute to the discussion. Thanks!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

People


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Go ahead and close the thread. Vanilla gave you the correct answer.




(good job Vanilla!!)


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## elkunited (Aug 16, 2019)

Vanilla said:


> People


Lol. I mean that's true, but I was talking more about the actual fly fishing itself and gear/lack of gear. Sorry for not specifying &#128514;


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## elkunited (Aug 16, 2019)

PBH said:


> Go ahead and close the thread. Vanilla gave you the correct answer.
> 
> (good job Vanilla!!)


Thanks for your input.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> People


C'mon guys, flyfishermen have more grievances than mothers-in-law. We can give the dude a bit more. Such as.........

Elitists, newbies, worm containers/trash, tubers, bubbles/bobbers/indicators, bait fishermen, the flow of the river, flies too small to tie onto tippet, general fishing regulations, crowding, expensive equipment, cheap equipment, access regulations, hotspotting, unreliable hatches, Patagonia, Orvis, Zebco, Herbert, the legislature, Kay McIff, The Farm Bureau/ Randy Parker, fellow fly fishermen, and many more.................................

Er, or in other words, people. :redface:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Catherder said:


> C'mon guys, flyfishermen have more grievances than mothers-in-law. We can give the dude a bit more. Such as.........
> 
> Elitists, newbies, worm containers/trash, tubers, bubbles/bobbers/indicators, bait fishermen, the flow of the river, flies too small to tie onto tippet, general fishing regulations, crowding, expensive equipment, cheap equipment, access regulations, hotspotting, unreliable hatches, Patagonia, Orvis, Zebco, Herbert, the legislature, *Kay McFiction*, The Farm Bureau/ Randy Parker, fellow fly fishermen, and many more.................................
> 
> Er, or in other words, people. :redface:


Yep...people. And I fixed one name for ya! :mrgreen:

Okay, if you were to take away other people and remove them from the equation, my biggest frustration in fly fishing is my tailing loop. I can't fix it. I know how to fix it, I've tried. I even took a class one time to help. It's just there. I hate my tailing loop.

Outside of that and people, I don't think fly fishing is frustrating.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

KISS

Like with any other hobby, gear becomes the obsession instead of the activity. Fly fishing is no different. Manufacturer's know this, and thus they forget the KISS principal and they overcomplicate the activity by making too many choices to try to choose from. Just look at fly lines. My goodness! How many different lines does there really need to be?

Imagine being a person that has decided they want to try fly fishing. They ask the question: What gear do I need?

Think about the response they'll get. That could be completely overwhelming!! 

They REAL answer (KISS) is they only need a rod, reel, line, leader, and fly. Now send that new person to sporting goods store and tell them to buy a rod, reel, line, leader, and fly -- ugh!! KISS went out the window!!


There you have it. That's my annoyance with fly fishing (golf, hunting, hiking, boating, kite flying, barbie dressing)


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Yep...people. And I fixed one name for ya! :mrgreen:


You missed one.



Catherder said:


> ...Sherbert...


dude is soft...


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

PBH said:


> KISS
> 
> Like with any other hobby, gear becomes the obsession instead of the activity. Fly fishing is no different. Manufacturer's know this, and thus they forget the KISS principal and they overcomplicate the activity by making too many choices to try to choose from. Just look at fly lines. My goodness! How many different lines does there really need to be?
> 
> ...


^^ This. I am new to the fly fishing game, but I fell into the fly trap and have way too many flies - most of which I have no idea why I purchased or even I will ever use them. The sad thing is I usually use the same five or six flies no matter where I fish and they all seem to work just fine.

Next came the waders, do I get wading socks and wading shoes only - and then just wet wade? Or do I get some Sims so I at least look the part?

If I'm up north in Yellowstone, in Colorado, or fishing the Provo, do I need a Patagonia vest to fit in with the crowd?

Why all the haters on the thingamabobber and a san juan worm? Isn't the objective to catch a fish?

What net do I use? Is it ok to touch a fish anymore? What about pumping a fish's stomach to see what they are eating?

Glass rod or graphite rod? 3wt, 5wt? What length? What's the deal with the Tenkara folks?

Aside from these jests, fly fishing has been a wonderful world to step into!


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## Ifish (Aug 22, 2008)

Time (lack of)!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Brush, bushes, small trees. kthxbai.

-DallanC


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> Yep...people. And I fixed one name for ya! :mrgreen:
> 
> Okay, if you were to take away other people and remove them from the equation, my biggest frustration in fly fishing is my tailing loop. I can't fix it. I know how to fix it, I've tried. I even took a class one time to help. It's just there. I hate my tailing loop.
> 
> Outside of that and people, I don't think fly fishing is frustrating.


Ugh, me too. :sad: I've not tried a class. Maybe it would help a bit.

Of course then if it improved, I would lose the righteous indignation I feel when elitists and guides look at me condescendingly as I toil in my casting at the local AFL blue ribbon fishery.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

On a serious note, I havent touched my fly rods in years. I'm down to a stubby ice fishing pole, bubble and fly. I can get that rig into many small tight places a fly fisherman could never hope too.

I'm getting better at the slingshot method of "casting". Pull the bubble back via the fly until the rod bends backwards. release the fly, then the bail... it shoots straight out into tight holes through brush. Love it!

98% of flyfishing gear is mean to catch fisherman.

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> If I'm up north in Yellowstone, in Colorado, or fishing the Provo, do I need a Patagonia vest to fit in with the crowd?


Nope. Patagonia sucks!


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Catherder said:


> C'mon guys, flyfishermen have more grievances than mothers-in-law. We can give the dude a bit more. Such as.........
> 
> Elitists, newbies, worm containers/trash, tubers, bubbles/bobbers/indicators, bait fishermen, the flow of the river, flies too small to tie onto tippet, general fishing regulations, crowding, expensive equipment, cheap equipment, access regulations, hotspotting, unreliable hatches, Patagonia, Orvis, Zebco, Herbert, the legislature, Kay McIff, The Farm Bureau/ Randy Parker, fellow fly fishermen, and many more.................................
> 
> Er, or in other words, people. :redface:


Sound like an elitist. Lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

CPAjeff said:


> Next came the waders, do I get wading socks and wading shoes only - and then just wet wade? Or do I get some Sims so I at least look the part?


Ugh, Simms. Why the heck did they get rid of the Classic Guide waders? $300 and you had some fantastic waders that would last 10 years plus of very heavy use. But Noooooo, they had to DC those and their equivalent types cost the GDP of poor 3rd world countries or one half of ones paired reproductive organs.

**O**


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Catherder said:


> Ugh, Simms. Why the heck did they get rid of the Classic Guide waders? $300 and you had some fantastic waders that would last 10 years plus of very heavy use. But Noooooo, they had to DC those and their equivalent types cost the GDP of poor 3rd world countries or one half of ones paired reproductive organs.
> 
> **O**


Just this last fall I started wearing new waders after 15+ years (and a few patch jobs) in my Classic Guides. Man, those things were the best waders ever made!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> I can get that rig into many small tight places a fly fisherman could never hope too.


You realize that we can use the slingshot method too?

I think I'd accept this challenge....

....depending on the fish we're going after.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

I fish spinners on rivers so I'm not sure if it counts, but the thing that annoys me the most is fly fishermen.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Jedidiah said:


> I fish spinners on rivers so I'm not sure if it counts, but the thing that annoys me the most is fly fishermen.


Ha! My dad taught me to fly fish at about 7 or 8 years old. Fly fished for better than 40 years before I got fed up with the other fishermen. Then I switched to spinners.

Fished a stream in Wyoming last year that I saw only 3 other people on. A friend lent me his rod set up and a grasshopper imitation and and had some fun again. I thought about getting setup again until I started looking at all the variables and decided I didn't need the headache.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> You realize that we can use the slingshot method too?


Yeah I've tried it with weighted line, I cant get near the distance of a 3/4 filled bubble.



> I think I'd accept this challenge....
> 
> ....depending on the fish we're going after.


Maybe next time our family comes down to the boulder we could hit some small streams for funzies 8)

-DallanC


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## elkunited (Aug 16, 2019)

Thanks everyone for input so far. Seems like a general overview is the number of gear that lures us in is the most annoying.

And people.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

elkunited said:


> Thanks everyone for input so far. Seems like a general overview is the number of gear that lures us in is the most annoying.


I don't get this one. I love having options! Bring on 7,037 different rod choices. Makes the products better and keeps prices down.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

elkunited said:


> Thanks everyone for input so far. Seems like a general overview is the number of gear that lures us in is the most annoying.


No I don't think that is accurate either. I would rate the tiers of annoyance this way.

1. People. We all seem to agree there.

2. The category I will call "I suck". This includes tail loops, putting the cast in the trees, bad casting distance, poor technique and skills generally, but also not having the knowledge/skills to use a given piece of gear properly. The gear can be perfectly sound, but if I suck (and I often do) I won't get the performance I expect and many folks will immediately blame the gear. Regardless, quite a source of annoyance.

3. Gear pricing. The best stuff is often outrageously priced (annoying), the cheap stuff is often total junk (annoying), and a skilled angler can get better performance out of total junk while you fail with your nice stuff. (most annoying of all).

The variety of gear peripherally leads into categories 2 and 3 but I don't know if it is annoying by itself, unless one buys into the false notion that you will miserably fail in flyfishing unless you have the best/fanciest/newest. But then that is a "people" problem.


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## browntrout (Apr 27, 2008)

The lack of true Blue Ribbon rivers/creeks in Utah. UWDR need to put alot of effort in this area. Very disappointing. For example: Lower Fish Creek is dead but listed as a BRR.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

My lack of funds to buy the higher quality gear I want. Definitely not a need but definitely an annoyance.

Lack of access to many navigable waterways due to private property issues in Utah.

Wind, it's hard to escape down here.

Not enough time on quality waters with my dad before it's too late.

My plateaued skill level.


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## elkunited (Aug 16, 2019)

So I've also observed, although not applicable to some, the need to have the big name gear like Simms, Orvis and Patagonia to name a few. These companies obviously make high quality and excellent gear for the most part. For myself, I know I would buy a lower end gear based off my finances. I think the best thing would be a merge in the middle of high end gear that's affordable for the average person.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

browntrout said:


> The lack of true Blue Ribbon rivers/creeks in Utah. UWDR need to put alot of effort in this area. Very disappointing. For example: Lower Fish Creek is dead but listed as a BRR.


I don't get this one.

Is your gripe that Lower Fish Creek is listed as Blue Ribbon?
Or is your gripe that Lower Fish Creek is "dead"?

I had a conversation recently with someone who had spent a lot of time fishing in Wyoming and Idaho. He had a great time, and caught a lot of fish. I asked him "how was the quality of the fish you caught"?. His answer? "nothing compares to the fish from XXXX River in Utah".

Utah does not have the picturesque rivers like Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, and Colorado. But what we lack in aesthetics is more than made up for with the quality of fish swimming in our rivers. Call them whatever you want, blue, green, gold, black, or brown.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I just took up fly fishing a couple years ago. At first I noticed a feeling of superiority and dislike for fisherman that used other methods. My disdain for bait guys and a near hatred of metal lure guys with their spin cast rigs. And now, with a couple years of fly fishing under my belt I have lost all those negative feelings and have regained respect for other fisherman, and a understanding for that guy that just wants to feel that tug on his line... an yeah, even that guy that wants to keep a fish or two for dinner. Don't let fly fishing turn you into a hater, it's way to fun to not do it with a smile.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Grew up tossing worms and learning again that its fine and puts a meal on the table. Granted I also have no problem taking my limit.

To PBH's Utah statements: I love fishing Utah. I love the lack of crowds. I recognize the work and effort that has gone into maintaining these fisheries. I'm grateful. But I still wouldn't compare the quality of fish or fisheries overall to Colorado, Idaho, Wyoming or Montana. 

I love my trips to the Uintas and Boulders. They don't happen as much anymore but they hold a special place for me. But nothing compares to catching a massive native cutthroat in a big, healthy, easily accessible river that hasn't been stocked in decades. 
I've only seen the combination of waters and fish like that in a few places and have yet to experience it here despite fishing some high quality stretches. 

But that combination comes with people, crowds and pressure (most places).  I can't downplay how much I love the ability to find solitude on just about any stretch of water in SW Utah most days but definitely on a Sunday. Even the lake crowds don't compare to what I've seen elsewhere. But that will just never hold the same place in my memory as being waist deep in crystal clear water as my dad and I catch trout that match the river in quality. It will never match the excitement of casting for beautiful west slope cuthroat on the free flowing Middle Fork as you then rush to stash your rod for a serious rapid. Nor compare to wet wading the Selway for cuthroat after a day rowing a river to yourself, after snorkeling with salmon and then searching for lamprey in the evening. 

I'll try to build memories like that with my family in Utah but there is a reason those states fisheries hold such reverence with fly fisherman the world over. Not every place is a fly fishing mecca (and I'm grateful for that fact).


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## elkunited (Aug 16, 2019)

I'm still learning how to fly fish as I grew up spinning. Biggest fish I ever caught was on a spinner in a popular Utah reservoir. But something about being in the natural habitat fly fishing is comforting. I love how the river grips the waders so you feel the strength of the current. My biggest issue with fly fishing is the cost. I've spent over $400 on a nice setup, yet still entry level.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Any new hobby is going to cost way too much to get started these days. 

How much would it cost you to start from scratch on hunting right now? Or golf? Or cycling? Or backpacking? Or? Or? Or...you get the point. Ain’t nothing for free, and recreation is not cheap anymore. 

There has been a lot of really terrible things come out of this pandemic, and I think the worst might just be so many people who didn’t know better before now discovering outdoor recreation is awesome.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

backcountry said:


> . It will never match the excitement of casting for beautiful west slope cuthroat on the free flowing Middle Fork as you then rush to stash your rod for a serious rapid. Nor compare to wet wading the Selway for cuthroat after a day rowing a river to yourself, after snorkeling with salmon and then searching for lamprey in the evening.


Most people will never experience those two rivers with the permit system that is in place. Those that have, have been blessed! And I am among them.

But again the price of admission is high or extremely lucky.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Blessed indeed. I hold my Selway trip in the same regards as I do my 30 day Grand float.

Friends do post-permit (season) runs of the Selway every few years with their fish cats and still have great fishing luck but it's not the same. I got very lucky to go on the regular season trip I did and was even luckier at the skilled fisherman I got to go with.

None of us have drawn a Middle Fork permit again in 15 years. Best catching those West Slope Cuts will always stick with me. 

Been on several other unpermitted rivers of similar caliber and quality up there as well whose names are locked away. There are just so many waters that run clear and healthy up there after decades of aggressive protections and the fisheries show it.

But my whitewater raft hasn't been wet in a few years. Buying a house changed that lifestyle fast.


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## Terrysandking (Jun 3, 2021)

Finding market research in this area is very difficult!
I am now trying to find it , but so far without success


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## Exthinker (Jun 3, 2021)

Market Research is the thing that every person in business should do every day. It is the quickest way to identify potential threats and opportunities. For example, I run some bakery shops. Their people can buy different cakes, bread and not only. Also, there are available all the ingredients that it is necessary for the bakery. Therefore, every morning I read About how mods remove spam but leave the post intact to see what was done to inform myself about the market. Most of all, I do this to identify who my competitors are, find their weaknesses, and grow the number of shops.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I wonder how much market research there is on spammers dredging up 6 month old threads to slap their spam onto?


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