# Spike Elk



## Stellarmike (Mar 12, 2009)

When do they go on sale? I am hoping to do the rifle hunt, my first time, any help will be appreciated!


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## inbowrange (Sep 11, 2007)

Today.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Who needs them......Ha!


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## Stellarmike (Mar 12, 2009)

Thank you! I need them, I obviously didn't draw out for the bull elk.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Well maybe if people quit shooting them, the DNR would be forced to hand out more big bull permits. So you would draw your tag.


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## Stellarmike (Mar 12, 2009)

Good idea, but I don't want to wait 10 years for my first chance to go hunting.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Pick up a bow and quit shooting spikes, hunt 300 bulls every 3 years. Hunt cows in off years, it works.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

In 1989 Utah began issuing spike-only tags to increase the number of mature bulls on many of the elk units in Utah. The idea was to allow a certain percentage of the yearling bull elk population to be harvested while restricting the harvest of mature bulls. This also enabled the DWR to issue several thousand spike tags with low harvest numbers, allowing for many people the opportunity to hunt yearly with reduced harvest of the bull population. We believe the spike tag still has its place in the management of both elk and elk hunters. However, we also believe that in many areas, spike-only hunts are not the most effective management tool. Accordingly: 

1) We propose eliminating the issuing of spike tags on the following five units (a): North Cache, Wasatch, Nebo, Fish Lake, and La Sal. We also propose introducing spike-only hunting to the following five units (b): San Juan, Monroe, Pahvant, Paunsaugunt, and SW Desert. This will allow more bulls to reach maturity on the (a) units, increasing the number of mature bulls that can be harvested yearly. This change will also reduce the bull:cow ratios on the (b) units which currently have an excess of mature bulls. Issuing spike tags for a determined time will reduce the number of bulls being recruited into the mature bull population without affecting quality. Although many spike-only tags will be eliminated, at least three new hunting opportunities will be created: Spike-only hunting on (b) areas, increased any-bull permits for (a) areas, and increased cow elk tags that can be issued in the future as a result of lowered bull:cow ratios on these units. 

2) We propose changing the season dates on the (a) units to the following: 
September 1-21 Limited Archery, any-bull 
September 26-October 4 Limited Muzzleloader, any-bull 
October 6-14 Limited Rifle any-bull 
All three seasons Premium Limited any-bull 

3) We propose changing tag allotments for the (a) units from 60/25/15 (any weapon/archery/muzzleloader) to 50/30/20. Giving more tags to primitive weapons combined with the season date changes will decrease harvest success rates, allowing for more mature tags to be issued for all weapon choices. We also propose that these tags be allocated by individual sub-units on the Wasatch unit. 

4) We propose the (a) unit tags be issued thru a preference point drawing, while keeping the remaining 23 limited entry elk units under the current bonus point system. We propose hunters a one-time option of converting their elk bonus points into preference points, if desired. This could be done only when applying for the first time in the preference point drawing. There would be no waiting period for hunters successful in drawing an (a) unit permit. 

5) We propose that tooth data and harvest/hunt reporting be mandatory for all hunters in (a) areas. Anyone failing to report would not be eligible to apply in the big game drawing the following year. 

SUMMARY 

We believe that by the changes in season dates, elimination of spike tags, getting bull to cow ratios in check with the EMP, mandatory reporting, tag allotment changes on the (a) units, more tags can be issued while maintaining quality. In addition, by redeploying the spike tags from the (a) units to the (b) units, the bull to cow ratios on the (b) units will become more inline with the desired ratios per the EMP. This proposal will allow more hunters the opportunity to hunt mature quality animals in Utah without losing yearly opportunities for OTC tags.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Dusted off one of the oldies for starters. :wink:

Happy reading.


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## Stellarmike (Mar 12, 2009)

Maybe I will try the archery Next year.  Dont have the money to invest in a bow though this year. Plus can't let a spike only unit go to waste.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Archery is a lot like fly fishing, once you have tried it and know how to do it, you would never drown a worm again.

Save your money now, worth every penny.


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## Stellarmike (Mar 12, 2009)

i appreciate the advice! I may take you up on it someday!


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Hogan, Shhhhhhhhhhhh! What are you thinking man, there's already way to many archery hunters.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Hogan,

You keep referring to "we". Mouse in your pocket?

Not all of us are into bow hunting so you and that mouse might want to show a little respect.


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## Stellarmike (Mar 12, 2009)

Must be Hogans way or the Highway. :roll:


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

:lol: We is plenty.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Here is the link to you newbies

http://utahwildlife.net/dwr_forum/viewt ... hilit=I400


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

The rate this is going my son Hunter will NEVER draw a big bull permit. The current system is an OIL at best, especially if you are a rifle hunter. I will not stand for that. I have worked on this countless hours and met with special interest groups (SFW, Don Peay, DNR, Aunice Auode, BOU, just to name a few) and know what I am talking about. If you would have read rifle hunters are included in this. Right now we hunt elk with the most efficiant weapon in the middle of the rut?????????? Seriously????? Move the rifle hunt dates alone and you could double all permit #'s without hurting quality. 

Sorry Dukes dad and Mike if you think I am dis' you. It's not about you or I, it's about the future.
When I say "we" there are more than you think behind this, not against this, with this. I personally speak for future generations. We as a group speak for future generation, what is best for elk and future elk hunting in that order. Nothing about you so don't take it personally.


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## vato-loco (Jun 8, 2009)

interesting proposals. i wouldnt mind goin any bull in the wasatch unit. wouldnt have to drive so far


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

"Hogan"

Let's have some numbers. I'm interested in the LaSal. I know they will be only estimates, But I am interested in your projections. More specifically I'm interested in the muzzleloader hunt out come. Under I400 what is my out come on the muzzy hunt to hunt the LaSal's (once every 2 years, 5 years, or what?).


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Plenty of projections in that old thread. Some good , some not so good. Good for reading sometime when you can't sleep.
Ya can't make everbody happy, but I like it.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Man it has been a while hunohoic. We kind of put it on hold due to disagreement. The current EMP calls for 30/100 bulls per cow. On some units it is way higher than that, but if you got those #'s in check, in all reality we would need to shoot 300 bulls and 300 cows each year to keep the #'s in check. If you shot 300 bulls and thry were all mature bulls this would effect qualit. So in off years we still could issue a limited amount of spike tags and cow tags,, it still would be possible to hunt your favorite unit every year just not mature bulls every year. If everything fell into place I would guess every 5 years you would hunt a mature bull. This # is very realistic. Archery hunters could hunt the unit every year spike or cow. Archery hunters do not do enough damage to even dent the population. And such perks as this would draw all the rifle hunters (you know the archery guys who put in for rifle clogging up the system so they are guaranteed a bull in the rut) to start putting into archery. This would make rifle hunters odds much better. It is kind of lame that archery odds of drawing are like 20% the first year and muzzy are like 15% and rifle odds are .002%. Arn't you guys sick of it? I am. Yes it would worsen my odds, but in the long run it would free up the system and we would be able to hunt 300-350 bulls every 5 years.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The currant EMP is on its LAST year of igsistance,,,,And a new one coming soon.
The truth is, You can talk to the DWR, SFW, The RMEF and everyone else all
you want and its doesn't mean a dam thing.

Until you get the WILDLIFE BOARD approval, Not much is going to change.

I've already heard through the grape vine there unhappy with the "big increases"
in LE tag allotment cosing the DECLINE in quality of mature bulls in the units your
proposing changes on.....

YOUR going to have to ROCK somebody's world in the next couple of months or
I predicted another 5 year EMP that will be "more of the same" for 5 more years.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

HOGAN said:


> Man it has been a while hunohoic. We kind of put it on hold due to disagreement. The current EMP calls for 30/100 bulls per cow. On some units it is way higher than that, but if you got those #'s in check, in all reality we would need to shoot 300 bulls and 300 cows each year to keep the #'s in check. If you shot 300 bulls and thry were all mature bulls this would effect qualit. So in off years we still could issue a limited amount of spike tags and cow tags,, it still would be possible to hunt your favorite unit every year just not mature bulls every year. If everything fell into place I would guess every 5 years you would hunt a mature bull. This # is very realistic. Archery hunters could hunt the unit every year spike or cow. Archery hunters do not do enough damage to even dent the population. And such perks as this would draw all the rifle hunters (you know the archery guys who put in for rifle clogging up the system so they are guaranteed a bull in the rut) to start putting into archery. This would make rifle hunters odds much better. It is kind of lame that archery odds of drawing are like 20% the first year and muzzy are like 15% and rifle odds are .002%. Arn't you guys sick of it? I am. Yes it would worsen my odds, but in the long run it would free up the system and we would be able to hunt 300-350 bulls every 5 years.


It has been awhile and I still get the feeling that bird keeps flying by me. 

If your system says that I can hunt every year, but I just will have to mix it up than I'm okay with it. But in a nut shell if your system say that I only get to hunt once every 5 years, forget it. Because if that is the case, then at that point you are tell me I have at best 2 more elk hunts before I die. I like to hunt. I don't like sitting on the side lines. I'm not willing to give up 20 hunts of spikes for 1 or 2 hunts of a big bull.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

In 3 yrs. you might be lucky to hunt with a rifle. In 5 to 8 Yrs. you might be lucky to hunt at all.  Take advantage of what you get while you can. The system is already getting so you have to jump through hoop after hoop to draw, and the rules are getting to the point where you have to be a lawyer or get a lawyer to understand what they have created. What they have created is a mess that keeps getting more and more diluted with rules and regulations. These rules and regs. are causing rifts between groups of hunters and hunting styles. :? Should they keep going until they make everyone happy? :?: Should they stop? :?: Can they make everyone successful? :?:


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Very good posts. Thanks. That is the whole reason I am involved. Mature elk are dying every year, winter killing, being hit by cars, and soon you will see more and more people shooting one and walking away from it. If it really only is once in a lifetime hunt, people will shoot an animal and walk away from it. Sad. People love to hunt and there is no reason we all should not be able to hunt how we want every year. YES we will have to give a little, sacrafice something, but it would be worth it. The rate we are going the only hunters that will be left in the woods are rich hunters. That gets closer every year. At the rate we are going you will have to draw a spike tag to hunt at all, and the rate we are going one day you will look back on this plan and wished it was the new direction.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

HOGAN said:


> Very good posts. Thanks. That is the whole reason I am involved. Mature elk are dying every year, winter killing, being hit by cars, and soon you will see more and more people shooting one and walking away from it. If it really only is once in a lifetime hunt, people will shoot an animal and walk away from it. Sad. People love to hunt and there is no reason we all should not be able to hunt how we want every year. YES we will have to give a little, sacrafice something, but it would be worth it. The rate we are going the only hunters that will be left in the woods are rich hunters. That gets closer every year. At the rate we are going you will have to draw a spike tag to hunt at all, and the rate we are going one day you will look back on this plan and wished it was the new direction.


Now that was nicely said. It was said in a way that make us want to band together and not drive in wedges.

I guess one of the things that has caused me to think a bit, is the condition of some of the units that have just what you are saying, bulls that are dying of old age, but are not 380 and above class bulls. I struggle with the fact that this is a known problem, but the DWR's solution is to harvest spikes. I struggle with the fact that the DWR has complete control over these units and we have nothing in place, after years of knowing there is a problem, yet no viable solution seems to be on the table. All I see is shooting from the hip hoping after years that the problem goes away.
After all is said and done, our leaders have to remember just a few simple items. We want to hunt and hunt with our family and friends.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Exactly. But on the other hand we do not want to hunt once every 15 years and settle for a bull that is 300. But that is the way it is. Most settle for less. Maybe there could be a reward program that is you do not harvest, there could be no waiting period? Hunt again the following year? Something needs to be done, it's hard to say, a lot of bulls and simple math tells you it is impossible bulls are not winter killing. There are problems but like someone mentioned, the same crap will be in place for years to come because nobody wants to issue more tags. I have yet to hear it out of any bodys mouth. Utah manages staewide, IMO that is a problem. We should manage unit to unit. Get the rifle hunt out of the rut, this would result in a huge tag increase. 

So all of you rifle hunters who are following, your sucess rate is 90% and archery is 30%, this is not exact and varies from unit to unit but just an example. What do you think if a unit gives out 200 rifle tags and 50 archery tags (pretty close after bonus permits), switching those #'s. So now the same unit would need to harvest 180 (90% sucess rate) with a bow, and 50 rifle tags? The 180 needed to kill the # of bulls you could times by 3, wich means you could issue 540 archery tags, and 40 rifle tags. This would only be on 2-3 units, not staewide, 580 tags to 250, this would help move the line much faster. I know more than 10 guys that archery hunt every year but put in for rifle bull elk, the reason, they will only be doing it once. I know this example seems to be archery driven but the whole thing makes sense. 

Right now the odds of drawing out are (again examples off the top of my head) Archery 10%, Muzzy 5% and rifle .02% Really????? Maybe if we made archery a little more favorable, guys would hunt the way they want to, get a plan however that may be that diversifies the odds. Whether it is 7%-7%-7% or whatever. Right now it is a rifle driven plan. If I was a rifle hunter I would be screaming for anything different to better my odds. They really cannot get any worse. Give archery muzzloaders perks to divide thigs equal. Everytime I type one of these up guys say this was written by an archer guy. 

OK so lets do the opposite give all the tags to the rifle hunters. Now what? Rifle hunters get more tags! Sounds good? Well not so, I have actually figured out the wasatch unit. If we gave all the tags to rifle hunters and a 12 year old kid started putting in for the Wasatch at this age, under the current bonus point system, his/her chances of drawing out would be 50-50 by the time he/she is the age of 65. :shock: This means that not everyone will draw out no matter how long they put in for. I will have to look around and find my exact #'s but I promise you they are not far off. 

So in a summary, we need something different, it may not look good to you as a rifle hunter but look at the big picture, it may better your odds. All these #'s need to be adjusted yearly. If archery guys are able to hunt every 3-5 years for a big bull and rifle guys 5-7 adjustment need to be made! I know it may sound bad if you are a rifle hunter hearing less tags, but move the hunt out of the rut and you can double your current tags, let alone X10 for archery tags. All these factors would ensure everyone hunts a big bull more than once in their life. Maybe 10 times for a young hunter just getting into the system, not a 50% chance of drawing by the time they are 65. Like I said it is not about "us" , it is about elk and elk hunting in that order.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Here is that example with the current #'s @ the time I figured it out-

This is an example I have used, the system is broke and change WILL happen, whether it is this plan or another, I promise. 

Last year there were 8583 applicants on the Wasatch for the any weapon. 
They give out 57 permits for this premium hunt during the rut. 
Now here is the hypothetical part, IF you only allow those 8583 applicants in on this draw, the rest of their lives and they are all 12 year olds with no bonus points to apply for this hunt the math is very simple! On the first year they will give out 57 tags, the 10th year 570 tags, 40 years 2280 tags, 50 years 2850 tags!!!! 

This gives a person a 33% chance of drawing a tag by the time they are 62 years of age! 

Now everyone is complaining that we are "taking tags away from rifle hunters"! Well I am in a good mood lets give all the tags from archery and muzzle load to the rifle hunters! This combines the total tag # to 100 tags! This greatly improves all those kids odds to a shocking 58%! But 42% of that group will not draw a tag by the time they are 62! 

Of course this is hypothetical, but now put your 12 year old child in the drawing with those 8583 applicants where all of them have at least 1 bonus point and where does that leave his/her odds of EVER drawing a tag? 

The system is broke! I would give up my right of ever drawing a mature tag again to help fix it for future generations! This plan creates more opportunity! By moving the rifle hunt out of the rut, success rate goes down to about 40%! You can now double the rifle tags! Not shooting spikes you can issue more! This is only few examples and there are more ways to add opportunity! If I was a rifle hunter I would love this proposal! 

Thoughts?????


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Maybe one solution to the problem is to move all hunts out of the rut. To me this sounds even and fair to all including the game.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

WASATCH MOUNTAINS (EARLY)
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
2008 Draw 5, Big Game Bonus Point Draw Results
09/16/2008
Page 168
Hunt: 17-354
4222 Resident Applicants

180 Resident permits
1 in 23.5
Applicants # Permits # Permits # Permits
Eligible Bonus Regular Total Success

Were did you get your number from????? I pull this from the 2008 odds report,
Shows for Wasatch any weapon 4222 Apps and 180 permits.
Still a tough draw but not near as bleak as the above post.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

It is off,, but @ the time I did do it was acturate. 2007. The only # I forgot to include is the bomus permits, another 57 I think in 2007, still would not improve odds a whole lot, remeber I did the formula giving all tags to rifle hunters. Application #'s have changed I am sure, but those applicant are on another unit. Wasatch is getting less and less desirable, but check 07'.
I did not make anything up, all are #'s provided from DNR.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

2009 LIMITED ENTRY BULL ELK PERMITS
Any Weapon Hunts (60% of Total)
2009 HUNT # HUNT NAME UNIT # Res Nonres Total
354 Wasatch Mountains 216 res 23 nonres 239 tolal permits


Heres how many permits were issued this year for 
wasatch any weapon.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

yes, 60% of total and still horible odds, still a once in a lifetime. #'s have changed which is a plus. Hunters #'s still are dropping, yet there are more hunters. Someone mentioned move all hunts out of the rut, but that would be impossible. Overlap of other hunts would never allow that. Put archery before the rut and during, and start the muzzy hunt to get the end of the rut, statistics show in other states that having the archery hunt in the rut does NOT improve sucess rate. Archery is hard enough, having this hunt in the rut does not concern me too much for over harvest. But then again, rifle hunters will see it as not fair. But I guess .02% draw rate is?


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I also never entered any out of state data into my deal either. I am certain you could twist things to a different angle but still is not going to be all that great. A long ways from what it could and should be.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I agree with the dates,, Would LOVE to see archery Sept.1 thru the 21st.

And yes, we could give out a lot more rifle tags if that hunt was in October.

But I've been watching this "hunting game" for 35 years, Been involved in the RACs
and DWR. I've got a pretty good idea how the system and "the board" works....

I'm just saying there will have to be a MAJOR sake up before any changes like I400
will ever happen. I just dont see it in the near future. Although I would like to.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

HOGAN said:


> yes, 60% of total and still horible odds, still a once in a lifetime. #'s have changed which is a plus. Hunters #'s still are dropping, yet there are more hunters. Someone mentioned move all hunts out of the rut, but that would be impossible. Overlap of other hunts would never allow that. Put archery before the rut and during, and start the muzzy hunt to get the end of the rut, statistics show in other states that having the archery hunt in the rut does NOT improve sucess rate. Archery is hard enough, having this hunt in the rut does not concern me too much for over harvest. But then again, rifle hunters will see it as not fair. But I guess .02% draw rate is?


So why not have the archery deer and elk run together? Right now between those two hunts they take up 6 six weeks of hunting time (not including extended hunts). Having them over lap totally or half would free up the weeks needed to move the rest out of the rut hunt.

Second in your numbers have you accounted for the general hunters who do not put in for limited tags. Out of the three hunters in my group, two do not put in for elk draw tags. You will now add them into the system.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

What I saw for that is this

216-23-239 total rifle
55-7-62 total muzzy
12-1-13 total premium
94-10-104 archery

Resident- nonresident-total of tags

So 418 total tags being given out on the Wasatch unit. 4222 total aplicants including out of state applicants? 10% draw rate, in these #'s, still once every 10 years in this unit, when it could be much higher. remeber that 10% draw rate would only hold true if the same applicants apply for this unit. I think we have seen a lot of fair weather hunters switch units. And I question the total # of applicant, 4222 for only state of Utah applicants? Anyway you look at it it has gotten better but another unit has suffered the difference. I do like using the Wasatch for examples and will log all new info and start working with it. Thanks Goofyelk.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Good point Huntoholic, that is a scenerio I have never put in any examples or even thought about. We descided @ one point to use a preference point system instead of bonus point system, make hunter descide which hunt they want to go on. 1-San Juan 400 bull elk hunt (bonus point) 2-Wasatch 350 bull elk hunt (preference point). The systems would compliment one another, still a trophy hunt if that is what you desire or a lesser hunt that you could go on more often. It would also help unclog the bonus point system and the two would need to co-exist together in order to be sucessful.

Dinner got run be back later.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

HOGAN said:


> Good point Huntoholic, that is a scenerio I have never put in any examples or even thought about. We descided @ one point to use a preference point system instead of bonus point system, make hunter descide which hunt they want to go on. 1-San Juan 400 bull elk hunt (bonus point) 2-Wasatch 350 bull elk hunt (preference point). The systems would compliment one another, still a trophy hunt if that is what you desire or a lesser hunt that you could go on more often. It would also help unclog the bonus point system and the two would need to co-exist together in order to be sucessful.
> 
> Dinner got run be back later.


I guess I'm the ignorant one, but what is the difference between Bonus and Preference points?


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Nothing ignorant about that. Preference system is you put in and don't draw you get a point, the next year all applicants that have points get the tag first. Bonus sytem is a lottery, with a % going to top point holders. 

Prefernce point get in line and when it's your turn you go, bonus point more than likley go when it's your turn but no gurantee. The rifle hunters all ready do the prference point system, put in for Southern rifle and don't draw you hunt the next year. 

This was one of the things in debate still. Another thing we were debating is possibly still issuing some spike tags, but it was still in the works.

Thanks guys for the chat. Kind of cool remebering all this stuff, it has been a while and sure more things needs polishing. I will start a new post of one of the last things we came up with. Nothing is set in stone and just about everything is debatable, should be fun whoever want in.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

HOH,,Bonus points are for LE hunts and Preferance points are general season, Theres 
a big difference but I'm not getting into that..........And archery deer and elk already
run together.

Hogan, The 4222 are resident only, any weapon.

There is a ton of info on the DWR web site..........Big game page.
Scroll down to 2008 draw and bounus point stats and
2008 big game harvest reports.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

I saw some of it, it has been a while. Preference point may or may not go well with this plan, I kind of like the idea, but others did not. Debatable like everything else. Hard to make everyone happy.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> HOH,,Bonus points are for LE hunts and Preferance points are general season, Theres
> a big difference but I'm not getting into that..........And archery deer and elk already
> run together.


When I stated run them together it was in reference to the time line "Hogan" indicated back on page 1 and my comment about not having anybody in the rut. Run deer and elk archery together the last three weeks in august. Run 9 day muzzy deer and then run the 9 day Muzzy elk the first part of September. Or run a 14 day combo deer/elk muzzy. Approximately 2 week break (Rut) and then the rifle elk.

If you don't mind pm with your take on the points. No argument or debate, I just what to make sure I understand.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm telling you the lawyer thing is looking better and better, or maybe an accountant, or better yet an economist. Oh' how about a person on the board? They really know what they are doing. Does anyone know what they are doing? Can't all or this be a little easier? It really is going to end up going to the rich.  You want a nice hunt. Go buy one!!!!! That's where it is headed. Start saving your money. The time that it takes to draw in Utah you could save your money for 10 to 15 yrs. and buy you a really nice hunt say Montana, or Alaska. 8)


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## itchytriggerfinger (Sep 12, 2007)

Why doesn't the DWR/Board just make it so that people have to choose either LE or General tags not both. Waiting periods would drop drastically. That way those that want to hunt every year can on the general areas and those that want to wait a few years (without hunting Utah) and draw a LE tag can.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

itchytriggerfinger said:


> Why doesn't the DWR/Board just make it so that people have to choose either LE or General tags not both. Waiting periods would drop drastically. That way those that want to hunt every year can on the general areas and those that want to wait a few years (without hunting Utah) and draw a LE tag can.


That's one idea I like.


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