# Bill: Permanent MDT



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Anyone else find this odd?

https://tinyurl.com/r47j64b

They are basically trying to change us to Central Time Zone, correct? I've always understood eliminating Daylight Savings time which I think is a weird system in the modern era. But I've never understood wanting 330-4 pm sunsets in winter which will happen under this bill.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

You are not correct. 
If they go to Daylight savings time year round it gives the extra hour of light in the evenings and and extra hour of dark in the morning.

So today the sunrise would be 8:23 and sunset would be 6:58 (as opposed to the current standard time of 7:23 / 5:58 )

In mid July the sunrise would be 6am and sunset 9pm. (If we stayed standard time year round sunrise would be 5am and sunset 8pm)

..


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

At least the idiotic Americans are finally understanding we want permanent daylight savings over "getting rid of daylight savings" as they were arguing for a few months ago. Those morons thought we are on it during the winter, and off it in the summer. They had it backwards.

I say leave it as is. I think making the change will result in more kids getting hit by traffic as they run to bus-stops in the mornings in the dark, and more morning traffic accidents in winter months.

Brazil made the change, and now people HATE it. LOL so be careful what you wish for.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/worl...before-5-am-and-people-arent-happy/ar-BBYSKPl

-DallanC


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Arizona already doesn't observe daylight savings. Are there more children hit crossing the road in the mornings there? Are there more morning time accidents in the winter in Arizona? 

That seems like it should be easy data to collect and look at, if in fact those particular worries are valid. 

(Those are not rhetorical questions, but legitimate inquiries. We should be able to find out if those things are true.) 

For the record, I hate *switching back and forth to daylight savings time. I realize I may not love the late mornings either in the winter, but alas...I think this old practice should go away.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Warning: Don't post anything involving basic math after taking a muscle relaxer. Ouch, that's embarrassing.

A point of clarity, without bad math, MDT = CST, correct? Let's see if my chemically addled brain can get that one right.

I'm with Vanilla even if I inverted the times. I'm just fine with MST in the winter but hate the transitions.

I guess that makes me an idiot. My first post doesn't help that argument 😬


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Arizona already doesn't observe daylight savings. Are there more children hit crossing the road in the mornings there? Are there more morning time accidents in the winter in Arizona?


Arizona is closer to the equator and have alot more sunlight in the winter months than we do, where we are tilted at a sharper angle from the sun. Its almost 700 miles from SLC to Phoenix.

Did AZ ever follow DST? If not, then residents have evolved with the varying light lengths. We see how much worse the traffic gets when a simple snow storm rolls through. Right now, its fairly light when kids are ambling off to school... roll that back an hour, IDK... I do think there will be an impact to driving and yes, kids hit.

Here's an article on how when DST ends, a considerable jump in accidents occur.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daylight-savings-car-accidents_n_58139612e4b0990edc30f45b

Relevant part:


> In New York City, 40 percent of pedestrians killed in car accidents last year were hit between October and December, *when nights get dark earlier and make it harder for drivers to see people on the street*, according to NY1 News.


-DallanC


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

backcountry said:


> A point of clarity, without bad math, MDT = CST, correct? Let's see if my chemically addled brain can get that one right.


Yes- it would be the same time as CST- but we are farther West so the sun would rise later and go down later than those in the CST zone.

I really like Daylight Savings time. I like that it isn't getting light at 4:30am in the summer. I enjoy having sun after 9pm. In fact I more than enjoy it- it makes my life better.

I don't mind the clock changes every year- but if we have to change to one system then DST year round is the only way to go!

..


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It might be 700 miles from SLC to Phoenix, but it's only 7 miles from Kanab to Fredonia! :grin:

If Arizonians can adapt, so can we. We are superior in every single way to Arizona. Even their big deer are mostly just our big deer that wondered out of Utah. 

(I kid...I kid....)


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> Here's an article on how when DST ends, a considerable jump in accidents occur.
> 
> https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daylight-savings-car-accidents_n_58139612e4b0990edc30f45b
> 
> ...


So, doesn't that actually support us always being on daylight savings, since sunset would occur later? This article correlates the evening time, not the morning time. It's also NYC where people are constantly walking in roads. Utah has done lots of steps for "school" zones and would have to factor that. Fact is in the winter they typically go to school in the dark or near dark anyways.

As for people "evolving":

Inspired by that finding, a group of U.S. researchers conducted their own study and determined that heart attack risk jumped 24 percent the Monday after switching over to daylight saving time. ... By contrast, risk for heart attack dropped 21 percent on the Tuesday after the fall time change

People aren't very good at adjusting to time changes abruptly. This study more closely shows how sensitive we are to sleep changes in general, but time change impacts that. Having one steady time should actually help people.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I like the idea. I hope the governor signs off on it.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

The thing that a lot of you are forgetting about Arizona is that they run on two different times--the one on the Reservation and the one outside the Reservation. Arizona is confusing as hell...timewise!

As a school teacher and parent of young kids, I also think this idea is terrible. I am concerned about getting my kids up in the dark and trying to get them to bed "earlier" in the evening. Research shows the importance of sleep as far as student learning goes....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4513265/
https://yourteenmag.com/health/physical-health/effects-of-daylight-saving-time


----------



## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I am all for DST all year long. People whine about going back and fourth. It has never bothered me. I like the extra light at the end of the day. I can get a bunch more done after work. I hate coming home from work when it's already dark. Makes me feel like a mole.....


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I mean.. we already are on it during the summer so going to bed when the sun is up shouldn't be a problem for kids since it gets dark at like 5 freaking pm in the winter.

Not sure about others but my Jr High kid already goes to school in the dark.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Given we've chatted some about sleep patterns..

If we are talking about health and safety of students we might as well change school start times for middle and high school. Science shows our school start times run counter to their biology.

http://theconversation.com/why-teen-brains-need-a-later-school-start-time-65308

That would help minimize being out in the dark as well.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

So does Biology change when they become adults and have to report into their place of work at 8am? How is the biology of the teacher vs the student any different at 8am?

I personally think kids are coddled too much. I love this meme:










-DallanC


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I find the whole thing ridiculous myself, regardless of where you are. Just pick a time and stick with it. 

It reaches a whole new level of ridiculous that Alaska still practices DST. By the time we start DST, Anchorage already has ~14 hrs of daylight, and within 6 weeks that is +20hrs/day. When we end DST we have 10 hrs of daylight, and within 6 weeks that drops to 6hrs.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

DallanC said:


> So does Biology change when they become adults and have to report into their place of work at 8am? How is the biology of the teacher vs the student any different at 8am?
> 
> I personally think kids are coddled too much. I love this meme:
> 
> ...


Yes, the circadian rhythm of adults and teenagers is different. The science is detailed in the article. The teenage brain goes through a series of significant neurological changes that aren't as common during the rest of our life stages, including younger students. It's well documented at this point.

And it's not coddling to evaluate the goal of schooling, ie education that is effective and retained by students, in relation to how the brains of said pupils actually function. It's no different than actually making your job site as effective and efficient as possible.

It's no different than looking at data that shows transitions of time in autumn lead to more accidents and therefore considering policy changes.


----------



## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

I wish there was a way to split the difference... make it the half hour between MDT & MST... but then you'd have all kinds of time zone conversion issues.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

DallanC said:


> So does Biology change when they become adults and have to report into their place of work at 8am? How is the biology of the teacher vs the student any different at 8am?


Yep. Biology changes a LOT during teenage years and puberty. Rollercoaster hormone levels, lots of brain development (which more or less stops by your early 20s), and physical growth. Most people stop growing taller during their teenage years, and only add girth after that. Physical growth and human growth hormone is greatly influenced by sleep quality and patterns. All of that requires a lot of energy to accomplish. Think of how much you/your kids as teenagers would eat versus how that changes afterwards. If I still ate like my teenaged self I would be an absolute whale.


----------



## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

derekp1999 said:


> I wish there was a way to split the difference... make it the half hour between MDT & MST... but then you'd have all kinds of time zone conversion issues.


I would rather see a consistent change done at the federal level but I don't see that happening for a while.

I prefer standard time as it's most consistent with what was the national and international standard. But if we at least move away from biannual time changes my body would be happier.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

backcountry said:


> Given we've chatted some about sleep patterns..
> 
> If we are talking about health and safety of students we might as well change school start times for middle and high school. Science shows our school start times run counter to their biology.
> 
> ...


As a school teacher, I am all for ways of getting kids the appropriate amount of sleep if it helps them learn more. But, later start times for school may not be the answer.

The problem as I see it is this--especially for high school kids--the later the school day starts, the later extracurricular activities start and the later homework and/or work can start. You push the school day back in the day, I believe you will also push bed times back later in the day.

I don't have the answer, but I don't think later school start times is the solution either. I do think, though, that year-round DST may exacerbate this problem...


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

All of this DST change talk is kind of moot. 

There is a Federal law that would have to be changed. A state has the power to opt out of DST, but they CANNOT opt out of non-DST time. So to force permanent DST, requires a bill before congress to be passed into law.


-DallanC


----------

