# Red butte canyon is closed!!!



## woollybugger

*From page 34 of the regulations:

Salt Lake County 
*In Salt Lake County, you may not do any of the following: 

Hunt big game within one-half mile of Silver Lake in Big Cottonwood Canyon
Hunt on the Red Butte Research Natural Area, which is closed to public access
Hunt in Emigration Township with a rifle or muzzleloader. This area is restricted to archery tackle only. Visit

_wildlife.utah.gov/maps _to view a map of the archery-only area in Emigration Township.

Please check the special regulations under general-season any legal weapon buck deer (page 14), general-season muzzleloader buck deer (page 14), general-season bull elk (page 17) and general-season muzzleloader elk (page 18) for additional restrictions in Salt Lake County.


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## TheMtnGuide

Thanks for the post Woolybugger. I spoke with Mike Roach the other day with the DNR and he said they have been getting a lot of complaints about people trespassing and hunting in Red Butte. I asked him if you’re allowed to go into Red Butte even if you’re not hunting and he said "no". It is closed to all public access. He said that they have conservation officers watching over it especially towards the end of the extended hunts and will make examples of those people hunting in Red Butte if caught because it’s been going on way to often over the past years. He also mentioned that is one reason why they have a question about hunting Red Butte on the extended test so people know that it’s closed. If they catch you, you'll have no excesses to get out of it. One last thing and I'll shut up about it. I asked him if someone shoots something on public land and it goes into Red Butte can you go get it? He said yes and no. You can go get it if you have permission, but if you go in without it and get caught there could be some problems so the best thing would be to get permission first and call a Conservation officer to let them know.


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## Dodger

I think the confusion comes from WHERE the boundary lines are because they are undefined.


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## c3hammer

It is technically all of Red Butte canyon. If water drains into it, it is off limits. That includes all of both the north and south bowls at the top between Emigration, Pinecrest and City Creek. Even though the one trail from Pinecrest goes through the upper part of the south bowl it is still off limits.

Cheers,
Pete


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## sk1

While I had always understood red butte is off limits....when you look at the boundary maps it shows a section of red butte as a highlighted area and I could see how one might think that is the restricted section.

I asked a warden about the highlighted area and he did indeed tell me those are not the boundaries.....however he did make it sound like the very northern tip before crossing into emigration is huntable, but this is a rather small area.

I feel like I get mixed answers every time I call the DWR. Even from the wardens who patrol the areas don't seem to always know the boundaries....at least that's how it is portrayed when I've spoken with them.

Some people are blatantly breaking the law hunting there, and I believe others just misinformed about the no hunting red butte thing, some just think it's the fenced area. This would be a very simple fix if the DWR would just put up an accurate boundary map, hell if someone could actually tell me the legal boundary without a shadow of a doubt (if such a person even exists) I would make a map. It would take a whopping 5 minutes of time and would help all who hunt near the boundaries.


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## Dodger

sk1 said:


> While I had always understood red butte is off limits....when you look at the boundary maps it shows a section of red butte as a highlighted area and I could see how one might think that is the restricted section.
> 
> I asked a warden about the highlighted area and he did indeed tell me those are not the boundaries.....however he did make it sound like the very northern tip before crossing into emigration is huntable, but this is a rather small area.
> 
> I feel like I get mixed answers every time I call the DWR. Even from the wardens who patrol the areas don't seem to always know the boundaries....at least that's how it is portrayed when I've spoken with them.
> 
> Some people are blatantly breaking the law hunting there, and I believe others just misinformed about the no hunting red butte thing, some just think it's the fenced area. This would be a very simple fix if the DWR would just put up an accurate boundary map, hell if someone could actually tell me the legal boundary without a shadow of a doubt (if such a person even exists) I would make a map. It would take a whopping 5 minutes of time and would help all who hunt near the boundaries.


Amen.


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## swbuckmaster

My cell phone shows where the boundary is.


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## swbuckmaster

Good luck hunting there. Looks real schetchy with all the privite and off limits land


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## woollybugger

I spoke with Mike Roach today. He cited a guy that was hunting 100 yards inside the boundary. Don't risk your hunting career, your professional career, and your personal freedom for a deer. He told me that if a guy were to shoot a deer that ran down into the closed Red Butte canyon, and it was a trophy buck, it would ultimately be a Felony. $8000 restitution for a trophy animal, $3500 for wanton destruction of wildlife, and a class A misdemeanor charge for trespass and hunting in a closed area. Not good. Just as if you were to poach a deer in any other closed area of the state. If I see you in Red Butte canyon I will be on the phone with Mike Roach or Ray Loken as fast as you can say closed area poacher!


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## sk1

woollybugger said:


> I spoke with Mike Roach today. He cited a guy that was hunting 100 yards inside the boundary. Don't risk your hunting career, your professional career, and your personal freedom for a deer. He told me that if a guy were to shoot a deer that ran down into the closed Red Butte canyon, and it was a trophy buck, it would ultimately be a Felony. $8000 restitution for a trophy animal, $3500 for wanton destruction of wildlife, and a class A misdemeanor charge for trespass and hunting in a closed area. Not good. Just as if you were to poach a deer in any other closed area of the state. If I see you in Red Butte canyon I will be on the phone with Mike Roach or Ray Loken as fast as you can say closed area poacher!


That seems extremely odd it would be considered a felony. So let me get this straight, he says if you shoot a deer on public legal land and it ran into red butte and died....if I call the DWR to get permission to go in there and get it they will say sorry that's an 8000$ fine and a felony thanks for playing?

Not sure I buy that.


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## Kwalk3

sk1 said:


> That seems extremely odd it would be considered a felony. So let me get this straight, he says if you shoot a deer on public legal land and it ran into red butte and died....if I call the DWR to get permission to go in there and get it they will say sorry that's an 8000$ fine and a felony thanks for playing?
> 
> Not sure I buy that.


Agreed. Why in the world would it be poaching for a deer that was legal to hunt when the shot was taken? If that's the case, we should never shoot any animal, because you never know if it's gonna run down and die somewhere you can't hunt. Once the shot is fired, we have almost zero control over which way the animal decides to run.


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## woollybugger

Wanton destruction of wildlife enhanced by a trophy animal makes it a felony. And the DWR is not the ones you have to get permission to enter red butte canyon. And, no, you will not get permission to retrieve your downed animal. Hunt where you are able to recover your animal after the shot. 
Don't be stupid. Don't push the envelope. I have too much respect and love for hunting than to give one ounce of support to any loser that thinks they need to poach or bend the rules because they are blindly obsessed with shooting a deer.


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## TheMtnGuide

I spoke with Mike yesterday as well and he told me about the guy he cited in Red Butte. They are keeping a close eye on Red Butte and if you do shoot something it better be outside of Red Butte on public or you'll have some trouble coming your way. I did ask him specifically about if you shoot something on public and it runs into Red Butte can you go get it? He said that you absolutely can not go get it unless you call the division of wildlife first and they come up and investigate it with a conservation officer, so you better have your ducks in a row to prove that you shot it on public. You also should GPS where you shot it or mark it with something to bring them back for proof. He said if the story seems suspicious they will go through it with a fine tooth comb. I don't see why people have such a hard time understanding the border. It seems pretty straight forward to me. It's not the divisions responsibility to go post the whole Red Butte border. Its the hunters responsibility to do the research and make sure they understand where they can and can not hunt. Anyway who wants to see ugly fences and signs going up around RB. It would take away from the canyon and would create more obstacle for the game to get past. If your going to hunt then you should learn how to read a map first. Its not worth loosing your hunting rights over.


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## Dodger

woollybugger said:


> I spoke with Mike Roach today. He cited a guy that was hunting 100 yards inside the boundary. Don't risk your hunting career, your professional career, and your personal freedom for a deer. He told me that if a guy were to shoot a deer that ran down into the closed Red Butte canyon, and it was a trophy buck, it would ultimately be a Felony. $8000 restitution for a trophy animal, $3500 for wanton destruction of wildlife, and a class A misdemeanor charge for trespass and hunting in a closed area. Not good. Just as if you were to poach a deer in any other closed area of the state. If I see you in Red Butte canyon I will be on the phone with Mike Roach or Ray Loken as fast as you can say closed area poacher!


So, first, your buddy Mike Roach isn't a lawyer. That may be what he charges people with but unlikely that it sticks in court.

Second, the rules, which you cited say "Red Butte Research Natural Area" is closed to hunting. That doesn't explicitly say the whole canyon is closed. There are a bunch of different maps that show different borders. I can see how there is confusion on what is in and out. I haven't seen any lines that say the "Red Butte Research Natural Area" goes all the way to the ridge lines around the whole canyon except for the one SW posted yesterday (Where did you get that, btw, SW?).

I haven't ever even been up there so I don't know. But part of the reason I haven't been up there is because I don't know where the lines are and I would rather not have a problem than have a deer.

Third, and I ask this seriously, why is this so important to you?


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## swbuckmaster

Its off my phone. Backcountry navigator. I can turn my gps on and know right where I'm at. I think I paid 15 bucks for all the maps in utah. Worth every penny


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## woollybugger

And you are a lawyer that specializes on boundaries, rights of way, easements, property lines, and land use law??? Didn't think so. 

The Red Butte research natural area consists of everything that was originally owned by the Dept of Defense related to Fort Douglas; and the reservoir itself, above to the USGS gauging station, down stream to the yellow gate next to Red Butte Gardens. There are three property owners in red butte canyon: Red Butte Gardens, USDA Forest Service, and the Central Utah Water Conservancy District. This area includes the ENTIRE drainage of Red Butte canyon. From ridge line to ridgeline, top to bottom. Not one single property owner will grant permission to hunt anywhere in the canyon. What part of this is difficult for you to understand??? 


Do you moan and cry about not being able to hunt at Camp Williams, Kennecott, Zion NP, Mountain Dell Golf Course, ATK, or any other closed or private property? Where does all of this entitlement attitude come from??? Mommie I want it now generation needs to just accept the fact that Red Butte canyon is closed. You have an entire Wasatch front to hunt on a very generous season. You idiots are going to screw it up for the rest who can understand and follow the law.


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## martymcfly73

Actually he is a lawyer. I too wonder why its a pet peeve?


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## woollybugger

Then if he is a 'lawyer' then he should know better. And also know that a felony would get him disbarred. 

Why is illegal poaching a 'pet peeve'??? I see it up close and personal and it makes me mad to think someone is ruining the hunting opportunity for all of us. And that I work in Red Butte canyon for Central Utah Water Conservancy District. No one belongs anywhere near Red Butte dam. Trespass on the dam and the DWR conservation officer will be the least of your worries. The Dept of Homeland Security and the FBI take a particular interest in activities on dams these days. I'm doing you all a favor. I post every year about this time on this very subject. Why is this such a difficult thing for some people?


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## Kwalk3

woollybugger said:


> Then if he is a 'lawyer' then he should know better. And also know that a felony would get him disbarred.
> 
> Why is illegal poaching a 'pet peeve'??? I see it up close and personal and it makes me mad to think someone is ruining the hunting opportunity for all of us. And that I work in Red Butte canyon for Central Utah Water Conservancy District. No one belongs anywhere near Red Butte dam. Trespass on the dam and the DWR conservation officer will be the least of your worries. The Dept of Homeland Security and the FBI take a particular interest in activities on dams these days. I'm doing you all a favor. I post every year about this time on this very subject. Why is this such a difficult thing for some people?


I think it's good that you post this to help everyone be aware. However, calling us "you idiots" because we wanted a little clarification comes off as something different. I personally don't hunt red butte or the surrounding area because I don't want to hassle with it if I have an animal that runs there. However, we shouldn't be entirely precluded from hunting the areas around it because an animal may possibly run there after a shot. It would require more headache than I personally want to deal with to retrieve a downed deer, but there is a bit of huntable area outside the canyon.


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## martymcfly73

That makes sense then. No doubt people are stupid. I don't gwf the felony thing. If you shoot the deer legally on public land and it goes to red butte property. That isn't a felony. Especially if you call the dwr for retrieval. Sorry.


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## Dodger

woollybugger said:


> And you are a lawyer that specializes on boundaries, rights of way, easements, property lines, and land use law??? Didn't think so.
> 
> The Red Butte research natural area consists of everything that was originally owned by the Dept of Defense related to Fort Douglas; and the reservoir itself, above to the USGS gauging station, down stream to the yellow gate next to Red Butte Gardens. There are three property owners in red butte canyon: Red Butte Gardens, USDA Forest Service, and the Central Utah Water Conservancy District. This area includes the ENTIRE drainage of Red Butte canyon. From ridge line to ridgeline, top to bottom. Not one single property owner will grant permission to hunt anywhere in the canyon. What part of this is difficult for you to understand???
> 
> Do you moan and cry about not being able to hunt at Camp Williams, Kennecott, Zion NP, Mountain Dell Golf Course, ATK, or any other closed or private property? Where does all of this entitlement attitude come from??? Mommie I want it now generation needs to just accept the fact that Red Butte canyon is closed. You have an entire Wasatch front to hunt on a very generous season. You idiots are going to screw it up for the rest who can understand and follow the law.


Nope. No lawyer would ever come to a public forum. Lawyers don't like to hunt or fish or anything like that. :loco:

I don't misunderstand. I told you that I've never even been up there. I'm trying to clearly understand a rule that doesn't have a lot of clarification. And your private property argument is nonsense. USDA Forest Service is the national forest. Government owned national forest puts the public in "public property."

I don't know what you are talking about. I never said I wanted to trespass to hunt on someone else's property. I was asking where the lines are because they are unclear. If you knew what you were talking about you'd see the rule says "Red Butte Research AREA" is closed doesn't necessarily mean that "Red Butte CANYON" is closed. At the very least, that's unclear.

Is that why you're so upset about this? Because your buddy Roach the conservation officer/part-time lawyer is not going to let anyone hunt on the Wasatch extended if he has to give a ticket to some guy for being 100 yards over the line? Or is it just that you don't want the competition?


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## Dodger

woollybugger said:


> Then if he is a 'lawyer' then he should know better. And also know that a felony would get him disbarred.
> 
> Why is illegal poaching a 'pet peeve'??? I see it up close and personal and it makes me mad to think someone is ruining the hunting opportunity for all of us. And that I work in Red Butte canyon for Central Utah Water Conservancy District. No one belongs anywhere near Red Butte dam. Trespass on the dam and the DWR conservation officer will be the least of your worries. The Dept of Homeland Security and the FBI take a particular interest in activities on dams these days. I'm doing you all a favor. I post every year about this time on this very subject. Why is this such a difficult thing for some people?


So now you're the lawyer? Or do you work in the Bar's discipline office? Please.

We're not asking why illegal poaching is a pet peeve. We are asking why people being 100 yards on the wrong side of the line is such a big deal for you that you come here every year and do us such a great favor.

P.S., I already got my deer this year.


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## woollybugger

I already told you that... 1. I work for CUWCD; I'm not a lawyer. 2. Red Butte research natural area includes the entire drainage. 3. It is a felony if you take a "trophy" animal in a closed area. 4. You may not hunt anywhere within the closed area. 

It's not a personal thing. I don't mean a blanket "idiot" comment to be directed at everyone, just those aggressively stupid types that persist with the entitlement attitude. 

There are a lot of forest service areas that are closed or have restrictions to hunting. Look at all of the limited entry areas. 

I'm tired of ignorant people. If you want to get cited for trespass or worse; do what you want, you're going to anyway. Just be aware that there are consequences.


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## Dodger

I hope you realize that the way you approached this didn't change too many hearts and minds, which was allegedly your goal. Telling people they are idiots and have an entitlement attitude for asking questions won't win you too much cooperation. Neither will playing lawyer and telling people that national forests are closed to access by anyone.

Keep that in mind for next year.


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