# Losers



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Well for nearly 8 years we've been arguing over which firearm, which cartridge, is the best. It's a "Ford/Chevy" thing, or sometimes a "my dad can beat up yer dad" thing and there's no clear winner.

I don't know enough about guns to say which one's the best, but I have been around enough and owned enough stinkers to have a feel for the losers. Whaddaya think? You guys have any losers ya wanna talk about?

I'll start:

The *17 Winchester Magnum rimfire*, fastest rimfire ever. Ammo was supposed to be cheap. It's not and it's hard to find. And that Savage 17 Winchester Mag rifle is cluncky.

.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Winchester bolt action rifles made after 1963.;-)


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

17 WSM is now hitting the shelves. We've got quite a bit down at the shop. And Ruger is rumored to have the 77/17 WSM ready for production. Chamber dimension issues so that the cases don't split needed to be worked out. Oh, and I hear there is supposed to be a 22 caliber WSM. I expect to be completely underwhelmed.
Back to the topic.... The Ruger Hawkeye. Not the rifle. The single shot revolver. Look it up. (or ask 'goob, he probably has two)


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

.357 maximum, it was pulled by Ruger when they found it flame cutting the top strap of the Black Hawk revolver but it works great in a T/C Contender

Goob has to have a Ruger Hawkeye since it was chambered in .256 Winchester Magnum

Also how about the Automag automatics in .44 and .357 Automag? I had a chance to pick up two of them with consecutive serial numbers with all 4 barrels but I didn't have the $1500 at the time. I am still kicking myself on that one.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

My grandfather gave me a pepperbox several years ago. Sometimes it will not fire. Sometimes it can fire multiple shots at the same time. Most inaccurate POS ever built. Looks cool and real glad to have one but it is junk and never was worth shooting. It has not been shot in years and probably never will be again......at least by me.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> My grandfather gave me a pepperbox several years ago. Sometimes it will not fire. Sometimes it can fire multiple shots at the same time. Most inaccurate POS ever built. Looks cool and real glad to have one but it is junk and never was worth shooting. It has not been shot in years and probably never will be again......at least by me.


I have no idea what it but that thing sounds REAL dangerous


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

3arabians said:


> I have no idea what it but that thing sounds REAL dangerous


6 shot rotating barrel. Mine is an Allen & Thurber. They look cool but that is about it. Back in the day it was said that the safest place was standing in front of the barrel. Apparently more than a few people were injured shooting them.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

The biggest flop that I ever bought was a Ruger M77 Varmint in 22 Hornet. Fed like crap and would not shoot under 2" groups. Man I wanted that one to work out. ------SS


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> 6 shot rotating barrel. Mine is an Allen & Thurber. They look cool but that is about it. Back in the day it was said that the safest place was standing in front of the barrel. Apparently more than a few people were injured shooting them.


Joseph Smith used one at Carthage jail. He fired 4 shots through the door, killing 2 attackers. the other 2 barrels misfired. The rest of the attackers were afraid to enter the room for fear of the 2 remaining shots. That saved the lives of the last 2 in their party. So sometimes a malfunctioning firearm is a good thing


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

CVA Wolf.


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

Cva muzzleloader. Hammer won't pull back unless you slam breech shut hard. If you didn't do it hard enough and there's game in front of you, it's already too late


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

.244 Remington

Ballistically superior to the .243 Winchester but Remington paired it's .244 with a rifle that had a rate of twist that wouldn't stabilize the bullets. By the time Remington fixed the problem the .243 Winchester had taken over that niche of the market.

.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm glad that you brought up the 244 Goob. It is proof of the value of research and marketing. Funny that Remington designed the better case by my estimation and yet fell flat because of a stupid barrel twist choice and poor marketing. I love my 6MM Rems with the right twist. Big Green had a similar boo boo with the 7MM Express. How could they screw up the marketing of what is perhaps the best offspring of the 30-06? I have a couple of those too. Maybe I'm attracted to losers.......don't tell my wife!:-o-------SS


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> I'm glad that you brought up the 244 Goob. It is proof of the value of research and marketing. Funny that Remington designed the better case by my estimation and yet fell flat because of a stupid barrel twist choice and poor marketing. I love my 6MM Rems with the right twist. Big Green had a similar boo boo with the 7MM Express. How could they screw up the marketing of what is perhaps the best offspring of the 30-06? I have a couple of those too. Maybe I'm attracted to losers.......don't tell my wife!:-o-------SS


Remington has had some....uh, lets just call it "bad luck".

My next loser is the 6.5 Winchester Magnum, a great cartridge, again marketed in the wrong firearm. More on that one later.

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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Any of you ever shot a Remington 742 Woodsmaster? My dad has one in .30-06 and it is the only big game rifle he had the whole time I was growing up. After 2 or 3 shots the barrel is hot enough to start a forest fire and you wont get that thing to group to save your life. The trigger about takes a team of draft horses to pull. I've had times where I was on target and applying so much pressure to the trigger that I stopped and thought that I must have forgot to take the safety off. Nope. Just hadn't pulled hard enough yet. Folks on the internet say they have notoriously bad feeding and ejecting problems. I guess my dad got lucky with his because it has always fed and ejected pretty flawlessly. It leaves a lot to be desired accuracy wise but my dad came up with a 165 grain sierra game king hand load that did okay. Shortly before my dad drew his LE elk tag he upgraded to a much better quality semi-auto with a Browning BAR. After he took his Dutton elk with it he has had pretty much zero use for it so I've let it tag along on some open bull hunts with me and have taken a couple bulls with it. I'm slowly but surely making that rifle "mine".


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I had a Llama MiniMax in .45 that no matter what ammo I fed it, it would shoot the hot brass right back at my forehead. Pissed me off so bad, I dang near tossed it in the lake!


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Any of you ever shot a Remington 742 Woodsmaster? My dad has one in .30-06 and it is the only big game rifle he had the whole time I was growing up. After 2 or 3 shots the barrel is hot enough to start a forest fire and you wont get that thing to group to save your life. The trigger about takes a team of draft horses to pull. I've had times where I was on target and applying so much pressure to the trigger that I stopped and thought that I must have forgot to take the safety off. Nope. Just hadn't pulled hard enough yet. Folks on the internet say they have notoriously bad feeding and ejecting problems. I guess my dad got lucky with his because it has always fed and ejected pretty flawlessly. It leaves a lot to be desired accuracy wise but my dad came up with a 165 grain sierra game king hand load that did okay. Shortly before my dad drew his LE elk tag he upgraded to a much better quality semi-auto with a Browning BAR. After he took his Dutton elk with it he has had pretty much zero use for it so I've let it tag along on some open bull hunts with me and have taken a couple bulls with it. I'm slowly but surely making that rifle "mine".


The Rem 742s use the same trigger as the Rem 870. Timney makes a replacement trigger sear/spring kit for the Remington semi-auto and pump rifles and shotguns that greatly improves the gun's (shooter's) accuracy.

.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Sad, but the 6.5 Remington Magnum is a loser.

The 350 Rem Mag and the 6.5 Rem Mag, introduced in the 60s, were the original short fat magnum rounds that are so popular today. 6.5 Rem Mag/120 grain pointed bullet ballistics rival that of the larger case long action 264 Winchester Magnum. 

But for whatever reason Remington put the round in a firearm with a 1 in 9" twist, not always the best for longer 140 grain projectiles. Some 140-grains would work, many didn't. But what really killed the longer bullets in the 6.5 Rem Mag was the fact that the longer 140 grain bullets had to be pushed way back in the case so the round would accommodate the short-action magazine and action. This reduced the powder capacity of the case and took away from the full potential of any projectile longer than the 120 grainers. Too bad, everyone knows (today, maybe not back then) what an excellent combination the 6.5 and 140 grain bullet are.

I guess Remington only intended to put the round in a short-barreled carbine rifles like the Remington 600, 660, and later the 673. Great guns in their own niche like hog hunting or deer hunting in thick brush. Somewhere around 650 Model 700 6.5 Rem Mags were made. They had 24" long barrels and were fantastic 120 grain rifles but took a bunch of work to make the longer, heavier, long range projectiles work. Wasn't worth the trouble. 


I'm a loser. I have one of those Model 700s 6.5 Rem Mags.

Hey, it's got pretty wood!!

.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

If you ever want to sell that loser to another loser.....let me know!-------SS


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I have a man crush on the model 600.-------SS


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

The 5mm Remington Magnum rimfire. Remington's 38 grain 5mm rimfire out performed the 22 mag. Introduced in 1969 as a rimfire varmint round when fur prices were high, the 5mm mag only came in Remington's models 591 and 592. The guns had clunky bolts, and clunkier triggers. The rifles were discontinued in 1973. Thompson Contender picked up the 5mm mag and ran the caliber longer than Remington. It wasn't long after that they quit making the ammo and the 5mm faded away.

In the 90s Aguila started a run of 5mm mag ammo in 30 grain that out performed the popular 17 HMR and there was a resurgence of interest in the 5mm mag that has leveled off considerably today. At one time 5mm magnum rimfire ammo was easier to obtain than 22 long rifle ammo.

I think the 5mm mag is a great round. Too bad it wasn't chambered in more, or should I say better, models of rimfire rifles.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> I have a man crush on the model 600.-------SS


 I always wanted a 350 Remington Mag.

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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

17 hm2.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Two on my list.

First is the .303 Brittish Eddystone. No wonder they were losing the war until the US jumped in. Mine was a military surplus. Loud. Obnoxious kick - worse than the 30-06, but lacked the accuracy of the American Cousin .308. Hard to get ammo, and just obnoxious rifle. I bought mine for $35, and the guy threw in two boxes of ammo and a case. It wasn't worth it. . This pic isn't my specific rifle, but mine was the same. 









Which is why I traded it for the next loser.
H & R single shot break action in 12 ga. That gun kicked harder than a pissed off mule. If you wanted to scare a kid off of shotgunning, that was the gun to do it. Louder than most shotguns, and the angle of the stock amplified the kick. Sure it was light weight, but would knock anyone under 200 pounds to the ground. That was if it even fired. The spring on the hammer wasn't strong enough to make it fire effectively every time. Plus, when you pulled the hammer back, a safety pin would come up in front of the firing pin as a safety mechanism. Problem was, it was so cheaply made, it just didn't work and would actually prohibit the gun from working correctly. I pawned that gun and used the money for a deer tag my first hunting season in Montana. GREAT trade.
Here is the H&R Abuser. Again, not the one I owned, but same model.









As a post script, the deer tag I got went on a very nice 4 point mule deer that got tagged the Saturday before Thanksgiving. Poor old buck was AFO as my hunting buddy said. One of my best hunting days EVER. So it worked out in the end. Stupid pawn shop in Great Falls probably still hasn't sold that POS shotgun. Either that, or they've sold it, then bought it back and sold it and bought it back and sold it a dozen times, making $40 each rotation. Stupid shotgun. Never get one of those again I'll tell you that for sure.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

Much will be a repeat of what has been posted, but here's my list:

5mm Remington Magnum Rimfire 1969 - because the Win 22 Mag was just blowing everything out of the water? Well no, the price of ammo kept most shooters sticking to the LR. So another more expensive ammo rimfire in a really unusual bore size will set sales records? Not.

[_On a side note, the most amazing introduction for success every has been the 17 HMR - with shooters not buying the, actually good ballistically, 5mm Mag, and most complaining about the ammo cost of the 22 Mag as a reason not to buy - coupled with the failure of the 4000 fps 17 Remington to gain popularity as a centerfire varmint round - why on earth would and did the 17 HMR succeed with ammo a bit more expensive than the 22 Mag????_]

Now they want to sell us a 17 caliber 22 LR-based round with more expensive ammo - and at a time that you can't get regular 22s?

225 Winchester 1964 - why a semi-rimmed round to replace the Swift instead of just legitimatizing the wildcat 22-250 like Remington did in 1967?

224 Weatherby 1963 - because everyone was dying to have an expensive belted case varmint rifle?

6.5 Remington Mag 1966 - try for 270 Win ballistics in a short belted case and them cram it in an carbine with an 18.5" barrel so you can lose much of any gain? Oh and make it a 6.5mm because that metric caliber is so popular with Americans as Winchester found out with their .264 Mag... Oops that one faded as fast as the hype too...
And real 6.5mm carbine fans just stuck with the ever-effective surplus sporterized Swedish Mausers.

.307 Winchester 1982 - because deer hunters will give up their bolt actions shooting high velocity calibers and buy a Model 94 lever if only it had a more powerful 30 caliber bullet at greater velocity? Flat/round nose kills trajectory that bolt gun users want (shhhh... They will never notice). And so the 308 case rimmed and with a thicker case is put in the old .30-30 platform. And those that wanted 30-30s just bought a 94 in 30-30, and those that wanted more power and trajectory still bought bolt actions. Hmmm... Guess the time wasn't ripe for the lever action deer hunting rifle renaissance.

8mm Remington Mag 1977 - because 8mm (.323") is just so popular with American hunters right? Oh wait, everyone with surplus 8mm Mausers got them rebarreled to different caliber's when they sporterized them. So there was a great need for a round between the 300 and 338 Win Mags for those who couldn't make up their mind and were of recent Germanic descent? Don't let the lack of decent high velocity-constructed 8mm bullets stand in the way either.
Well at least the case was the basis for the 7mm STW so it didn't all go to waste.

350 Remington Mag - while we are making a short belted 6.5 Mag for the 600, let's make a hard-kicking 35 carbine as well on the case. Winchester makes a .358 and... Well that didn't sell but this one has a _belt_ and says _Magnum_ so that is the magic. Did someone say there already is the Whelen? Well that round is named after a dead guy and don't sell our 600 carbine.

And that's just the older ones. Just add all the Winchester/Browning WSSM round and the Remington RSAUM rounds to the list as well as the Win 325 WSM and that covers most.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

The Kimel Kamper shotguns



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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Remington's Accelerator - sabot 55 grain .22 at 4000 fps out of a 30-06



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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

wyogoob said:


> Remington's Accelerator - sabot 55 grain .22 at 4000 fps out of a 30-06
> 
> 
> 
> .


I still have a couple of boxes of those.

They worked wonders on jack rabbits.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> I still have a couple of boxes of those.
> 
> They worked wonders on jack rabbits.


My neighbor and I reloaded a bunch in .308 and 30-30.

If I sighted in my 06 with these sabots, I couldn't hit a darn thing using normal big game hunting bullets out of the same rifle.

.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Another loser I have is a little .22 semiauto made by Marlin. It was suppossed to compete with Ruger 10/22 but had a horrible design - tube magazine instead of the box, and would jam about every 3-4 shells. I still have that sucker if someone wants it. I quit messing with it over a decade ago and its been in a case ever since. Hate that little rifle.

This particular rifle isn't mine, but is the same mode. I'd trade it right now for a box of fly tying hooks and a dozen empty shotgun shells.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Remington in discontinuing the Nylon 66 in 1989. 

They had a great thing going only to think that their new semi automatic 22 was better. 

It would be like Ruger discontinuing the 10/22 heaven forbid.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Another loser I have is a little .22 semiauto made by Marlin. It was suppossed to compete with Ruger 10/22 but had a horrible design - tube magazine instead of the box, and would jam about every 3-4 shells. I still have that sucker if someone wants it. I quit messing with it over a decade ago and its been in a case ever since. Hate that little rifle.
> 
> This particular rifle isn't mine, but is the same mode. I'd trade it right now for a box of fly tying hooks and a dozen empty shotgun shells.


Yep, model 99 ?? Don't see many of them anymore.

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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Yea Goob, think it is a model 99. Should be a model POS.


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## Mtnbeer (Jul 15, 2012)

wyogoob said:


> Yep, model 99 ?? Don't see many of them anymore.
> 
> .


Also known, with a few slight modifications, as the Model 60 if made after... 1960.

Most of my family owned Marlin Model 60s and still do. With a cheap 4x scope mounted on dovetails, we were deadly on whistlepigs. I don't see that gun much out here, but back east, they are really popular.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> Remington in discontinuing the Nylon 66 in 1989.
> 
> They had a great thing going only to think that their new semi automatic 22 was better.
> 
> It would be like Ruger discontinuing the 10/22 heaven forbid.


I hear ya there. The 66 was one of the best guns ever made and Remington sold a bajillion of them.

Remember the ad about the guy that took a Model 66 and hit 250,000 2"x2" wooden blocks in a row thrown in the air and without a malfunction?

.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

GaryFish said:


> Another loser I have is a little .22 semiauto made by Marlin. It was suppossed to compete with Ruger 10/22 but had a horrible design - tube magazine instead of the box, and would jam about every 3-4 shells. I still have that sucker if someone wants it. I quit messing with it over a decade ago and its been in a case ever since. Hate that little rifle.
> 
> This particular rifle isn't mine, but is the same mode. I'd trade it right now for a box of fly tying hooks and a dozen empty shotgun shells.


What that rifle lacks in function it more than makes up for in aesthetics...HA! J/K. What a disaster!


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I bought a .22 pistol back in the 70's that would qualify as a loser. It was a cheap Italian copy of the single six Colt peacemaker. I bought it when the old Sunset Sports in Logan had them on sale for $29.00 for the pistol and LR cylinder or $36.00 with a .22 magnum cylinder included. 

Right from the start the long rifle cylinder would slide back and forth on the center rotating pin so the only way for it to consistently fire would be to hold it vertically......a bit inconvenient when dispatching animals on a trap line. I did fashion a shim to hold the cylinder tight against the hammer wall but misfires were still common. One of the consequences of having that larger than normal gap between the cylinder and barrel was that it spit fire and debris out the side on every shot. My buddies learned quickly to duck behind me whenever I took aim.

The screw holding the ejection rod in place was also constantly coming loose and eventually it stripped out so I shelved it. I ended up making my own ejection rod out of a clothes hanger that I kept slid in the front of my holster.

I was working a night shift job a few years later when somebody broke into my truck and stole this pistol. After that, I always made sure my truck was locked and secured every time I left it.......scared to death the thief would try to bring it back...


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

How bout 307 win? They even resurrected it as the .308 marlin express. Neither was a big hit I don't think. Oddly the .356 win had a following and ammo is still produced by Winchester but not .358. .338 marlin express probably had more interest but is fading fast.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

GaryFish said:


> Two on my list.
> 
> First is the .303 Brittish Eddystone. No wonder they were losing the war until the US jumped in. Mine was a military surplus. Loud. Obnoxious kick - worse than the 30-06, but lacked the accuracy of the American Cousin .308. Hard to get ammo, and just obnoxious rifle. I bought mine for $35, and the guy threw in two boxes of ammo and a case. It wasn't worth it. . This pic isn't my specific rifle, but mine was the same.
> 
> ...


My father bought one of those H&R's for my 2 younger brothers when they were old enough to hunt waterfowl. The thing was exactly as you described. It is probably not a coincidence that they never showed any future interest in hunting after just a couple of trips.

However, I was not spared from a loser gun in my youth either. As I got a little older and wanted to hunt geese more effectively, I foolishly bought myself a Marlin goose gun with a 40 inch barrel, in a bolt action. (I can't remember the model number and I no longer own the gun) Every time I touched off a round, the ammo clip would fall out of the bottom of the gun with the 2 remaining shells, effectively rendering it a single shot weapon. Multiple times, I was digging in the mud, water, or weeds, trying to find the clip. Miraculously, I never permanently lost the clip. I never could hit a blasted thing with it either. (that may have been a me problem ;-)) After 1 frustrating season, I quickly went to something else and was much happier and never took the Marlin out of the gun cabinet again.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

That goose gun was a model 55 with a 36" barrel. A friend and I both got one at the same time. I never had a problem with the magazine falling out but that thing kicked like 2 mules at the same time. 

We took them out rabbit hunting one weekend out by Fairfield and after my buddy took two or three shots he wrapped that shotgun around a cedar tree. I would be willing to bet that it is still sitting in the same spot that he threw it. I traded mine a couple of months later for a H&R 22Lr pistol.

I might have to take a ride out that way the next time I am in the area and see if I can find the rusted hulk of it.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Yea. My uncle had the same H&R in 10 gauge. Asked me if I wanted to shoot it. I just shook my head and said no way. He said he got it as a goose gun. I asked him if he ever hunted geese. He said no, but might want to some day. Fair enough I guess. :-/ Cancer got him nearly 10 years ago. We should have buried the gun with him.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

The Smith and Wesson 329 PD; 26 ounces of pain.

Some called it the .44 Mag Kaboom:


picture from accurateshooter.com:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/05/how-to-shear-your-scandium-44-mag-revolver-in-half/

S&W provides 2 sets of grips with the revolver, wood and rubber, both finger groove and both inflict an equal amount of pain. A smooth grip would be much better.

.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I didn't know they made two piece frames like that. Wow. That's kind of cool? 

Oh. And I got top of page Goob. Bummer. That two piecer would have been a cool TOP.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> I didn't know they made two piece frames like that. Wow. That's kind of cool?
> 
> Oh. And I got top of page Goob. Bummer. That two piecer would have been a cool TOP.


smart aleck

Satan carries a 329 PD. I threw mine away; kept the case and the trigger lock. 

.


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## Watcher (Dec 31, 2008)

I shot a couple boxes of accelerators out of my Remington 742 .308 when I was a young kid. Always wondered if an assassin could get away with murder because the bullet would not have any rifling marks? That 742 was a jamming and constantly breaking piece of crap. Talked Remington into a new one, asked for one in 35 Whelen, and immediately traded it on the then brand new Mossberg 835 (3.5" magnum). 
At any rate I doubled down on losers.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Watcher said:


> I shot a couple boxes of accelerators out of my Remington 742 .308 when I was a young kid. Always wondered if an assassin could get away with murder because the bullet would not have any rifling marks? That 742 was a jamming and constantly breaking piece of crap. Talked Remington into a new one, asked for one in 35 Whelen, and immediately traded it on the then brand new Mossberg 835 (3.5" magnum).
> At any rate I doubled down on losers.


Ha! I mentioned the Remington 742 earlier in this thread. My dad owns one and my brother and I will probably find out which one of us is not the favorite son by who ends up inheriting this gun. I've heard many people call it the Remington Jam-o-matic for the problems you have had. My dad must have got at least a little bit lucky with his because it actually feeds and ejects without any hiccups. I love my dad's Browning BAR, but I think when it comes to big game rifles, like most everybody else, I'm a die-hard bolt guy.


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

Frisco Pete said:


> Much will be a repeat of what has been posted, but here's my list:
> 
> 5mm Remington Magnum Rimfire 1969 - because the Win 22 Mag was just blowing everything out of the water? Well no, the price of ammo kept most shooters sticking to the LR. So another more expensive ammo rimfire in a really unusual bore size will set sales records? Not.
> 
> ...


And then they resurrect the .307 as the .308 marlin 25 yrs later, but give it a red rubber tip in one bullet weight so you can shoot it out of a tube fed lever gun, but any reloading done in bullet weights other than the one with the rubber tip required flat nosed bullets that would duplicate ballistics of the .307 winchester. so to (almost) duplicate ballistics of a bolt action cartridge in a lever gun, they duplicate a failed concept and create a whole new cartridge from the case up that only one type of rifle could ever realistically be chambered in and it all hinges on a red rubber tip. all in an age where browning has a levergun that can be chambered in nearly any high speed cartridge without the need for special bullet tips. i wont knock the .338 marlin express because i am just stupid for medium bores, even though it pretty much falls somewhere between .33 wcf and .348 wcf but with all the advantage and innovation over those two being a red rubber tipped bullet seated in a propietary case that may one day cease being produced. 
6.5 rem mag never made sense to me either. did they make a 120gr? only ammo ive seen for it is 100gr. 
I have also eyeballed and drooled over the 600, 660 and even the big ol not-a-carbine 673 in .350 rem mag. i would have regretted buying one since ammo is scarce and so is brass and i dont need it since i have .358 win and .35 whelen, but not in a supershort super light lil 600.


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

and has anyone ever met someone who used, owned or shot a rsaum? i think i saw one on a used rack once 8 or 9 yrs ago.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

35whelen said:


> And then they resurrect the .307 as the .308 marlin 25 yrs later, but give it a red rubber tip in one bullet weight so you can shoot it out of a tube fed lever gun, but any reloading done in bullet weights other than the one with the rubber tip required flat nosed bullets that would duplicate ballistics of the .307 winchester. so to (almost) duplicate ballistics of a bolt action cartridge in a lever gun, they duplicate a failed concept and create a whole new cartridge from the case up that only one type of rifle could ever realistically be chambered in and it all hinges on a red rubber tip. *Actually there's two kinds of rifles: the other kind being a pump rifle, popular in some parts of the country.* all in an age where browning has a levergun that can be chambered in nearly any high speed cartridge without the need for special bullet tips. i wont knock the .338 marlin express because i am just stupid for medium bores, even though it pretty much falls somewhere between .33 wcf and .348 wcf but with all the advantage and innovation over those two being a red rubber tipped bullet seated in a propietary case that may one day cease being produced.
> 6.5 rem mag never made sense to me either. did they make a 120gr? only ammo ive seen for it is 100gr. *The 120 grain 6.5 Rem Mag was more popular than the 100 grain and for years, up till the end, that was the only cartridge offered over the counter. The Rem Model 700 6.5 Remington Magnum with it's 24" barrel and 120 grain pointed bullets will out shoot the 6.5-284 and comes pretty close to the 264 Win Mag, both when using 120 grain bullets.*
> I have also eyeballed and drooled over the 600, 660 and even the big ol not-a-carbine 673 in .350 rem mag. i would have regretted buying one since ammo is scarce and so is brass and i dont need it since i have .358 win and .35 whelen, but not in a supershort super light lil 600. *FWI: The 600, 660, and 673 were also offered in the 6.5 Rem Mag. The 350 Rem Mag and then the 6.5 Rem Mag, based on the 350 Rem Mag case, were the first "short fat" magnums.*


*
Comments in red.*


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

handgun shot shells



There's all kinds of shot shell cartridges out there for handguns, both wheel guns and semi-auto pistols; .22 short and long rifle, 22 Mag, 357 Mag, 9mm, 40 S&W, 44 Spl/Mag, 45ACP, and the 45 Colt to name a few. Some people love em, some, after using them one time, hate em.

They have their share of chambering issues in semi-autos. I've found it difficult to have a regular round in a revolver cylinder next to a CCI shot shell. The concussion and/or gas escaping from the cylinder gap will often crack the plastic shot cup on an adjacent CCI shot shell.

Although the lead shot doesn't hurt the rifling in a firearm (per S&W and Springfield Armory) the shot shells really make a mess, leave a lot of residue, in the barrel. I think that's the biggest complaint I have, cleaning the barrels.

Reloading is tricky, especially getting the correct crimp on the plastic shot cups. Again there's the feeding issues on semi-autos.

Some powders will "melt" or smear the plastic cups in longer barreled hand guns.

There could be an equal number of shooters that love the things too, I 'm not sure. Where there's rats and other barnyard pests, say pigeons and sparrows, they're popular. I have harvested my share of close range upland game with them.

Before totally giving up on the things I'm gonna try and make brass/paper cup shotshells for the 45 ACP out of 308 cases, and 256 Win Mags out of 357 brass.

.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Sounds like alot of work... just go get a Judge and stick some .410 shells in it. You can even get 410 slugs (although that makes little sense). I reloaded some 410 shells once with a single stack of 0 or 00 buckshot years back, was kindof fun.


-DallanC


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

wyogoob said:


> handgun shot shells
> 
> I have harvested my share of close range upland game with them.


I could see how those things would be useful on a late season back country fishing trip, and a juicy grouse shows up for dinner. :EAT:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Are lever action shotguns losers? Probably so. They've been around a long time but for what ever reason I just can't picture myself using one over a set of dekes while in a duck blind. 

Winchester had the Model 1887 lever action, a really cool shotgun, but not very popular. I think the Winchester 1997 put the 1887 to bed. Arnold Schwarzenegger used a`saw-off 1887 throughout the popular Terminator 2 movie.

Kessler had the Levermatic shotgun that didn't go any where although Marlin picked up on "short throw" Levermatic action and employed it in their moderately-popular .22, .22 Mag and .256 rifles Levermatic rifles. I always wanted a Kessler, very unique shotgun. The Levermatic action is really cool. The action cycles a round by only moving the lever about one-half as far as a normal lever-action rifle like the Winchester 94 or the Marlin 336. Once you get use to the short throw you can fire repeated shots faster than with a pump. But the neato Levermatic action shotguns just didn't sell and cost too much to manufacture.

There's still some lever action .410s out there by Marlin and Winchester.....Rossi, maybe some others. A small number of the cowboy action guys use them around here.

.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

What about a bolt action shotgun? I old friend of the family had the coolest little bolt action 410 shotgun. I never found out the model or mfg... I just remember the bolt, smoothbore octagon barrel and being of 410 caliber.


-DallanC


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> What about a bolt action shotgun? I old friend of the family had the coolest little bolt action 410 shotgun. I never found out the model or mfg... I just remember the bolt, smoothbore octagon barrel and being of 410 caliber.
> 
> -DallanC


Bolt action shotguns have been and still are popular with whitetail deer hunters east of the Big River. The Savage 220 is a good one. A couple of guys I hunt with swear by them.

And I remember fondling a partial-octagon shotgun one time. Can't remember the brand name though.

.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I started shotgunning with a .410 bolt action Mossberg. I'd hardly call that thing a loser though. We also had a 20 gauge in the same action. As a kid, you learned to make your shots using that thing. Learning on that .410 bolt trained me up right on birds. Try hitting a chukar with a .410 worth of #6 shot. LOVED that little bolt gun. Again, the pic is not the one I learned on. But exactly like. My brother still has it. Wish I had it.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Gary, did that Mossberg have an adjustable choke at the end of the barrel? My first shotgun was a 16 gauge bolt action Mossberg that looked like yours, but it had an "adjust-a-choke" attachment at the end of the barrel. I loved that gun. Sadly, like a few others I've seen over the years, the choke attachment fatigues and breaks. That happened to mine eventually. That gun was what I hunted with for several years. Good memories. 


As for loser bolt action shotguns, Critter and I already related our experiences with the Marlin bolt action goose guns. Ugh. I too was tempted a time or two to do what his friend did.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

The .410 had a removable, external choke. I only had one choke for it. The 20 gauge we had featured the adjustable choke so I know what you are talking about.


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## Azar (Oct 21, 2014)

My father received a 16 gauge bolt action Mossberg from his father for a birthday present when he was younger. My dad still can't figure out why he was given a less common caliber in an oddly styled shotgun. His best guess is it was inexpensive.

He still has it and, yes, it has the adjustable choke on the end of the barrel and a detachable mag. Just a heavy, fugly looking thing. 

But I did use it to take my first small game (Snowshoe Hare) back in the 80's...


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Azar said:


> Just a heavy, fugly looking thing.


It's funny, but through my eyes as a 12 year old with his first gun, it was a thing of beauty.


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