# General Season Turkey Hunt



## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

I apologize if this has already been discussed. I am not exactly on the bleeding edge of outdoor news so this may be old news to most on this forum, but I was just told yesterday that Utah will have its first ever statewide General Season Turkey Hunt, and over the counter tags went on sale yesterday! Wow! My first reaction was excitement, but now that the surprise of it has worn off I am asking myself - is this a good thing? I know Utah's turkey population has really taken off in the last decade or so, but are there *really* enough birds to sustain a general hunt? Is this just a trial for the DWR to see if they can handle a general hunt? I have never hunted wild turkey before (but I sure would love to) so I am really curious to hear what others think about this, especially those of you who are seasoned turkey hunters and have been putting in for them for years. Is there even a reason to put in for limited entry turkey tags anymore?


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I think the biggest reason for continuing the draw system is so there is a group of hunters out there that get a crack at the early season, before all the other hunters get after them. IMO, I don't think you will see a huge success rate during the general hunt. There will be more people chasing them, which means they'll be that much harder to find/harvest. I guess we'll see how it goes.


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## elgobbler (Nov 22, 2007)

I think its a good thing overall, but I do think they should have left a few units limited entry all season long. Chaser makes a good point in that the birds during the general season will become smarter, and the success rate will decrease for the average turkey hunter. Overall quality for both limited entry and general season hunts will probably go down, cause birds will become educated and wary. Idaho has plenty of over the counter areas, but still left some areas that were controlled hunts all season long! I think they should do something like Idaho, so that there's not just a free for all(alot more chasing, rather than actual hunting) in all the main units! I guess there are a few CWMU's to apply for, but that's pretty limited compared to what Idaho has to offer in its controlled units. I think part of it has to do with $ and selling more tags! In my opinion we shouldn't sacrifice all quality for quantity. There's got to be a better balance?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Limited Entry for turkeys is, and should be, only to ensure there are toms available to breed the hens. Since 95-100% of the breeding happens in March/April, those are the only times limiting the harvest of toms is warranted. In May, hunters could kill 100% of the toms and not hurt the turkey populations at all. A male turkey live no more than 4 years in the wild, most never get to 4 even without humans hunting them.

As for the 'quality' of turkey hunting being hurt by 'too many' hunters in the field and having educated birds, isn't that why it's called HUNTING and not killing? :? I have had the late season tag the last two years, and the birds have been educated, making it a challenge, and get this...........A HUNT.


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

proutdoors said:


> Limited Entry for turkeys is, and should be, only to ensure there are toms available to breed the hens. Since 95-100% of the breeding happens in March/April, those are the only times limiting the harvest of toms is warranted. In May, hunters could kill 100% of the toms and not hurt the turkey populations at all. A male turkey live no more than 4 years in the wild, most never get to 4 even without humans hunting them.


What if the following winter is a hard one and a large number of the male young of the year dont survive to breed the females the following spring? Wouldn't the population crash? I see your point though. As long as each flock has at least one male survive to breed the populations _should_ be stable.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Yes, if all the toms were killed by hunters and then a harsh winter killed off a bunch of jakes the population would take a hit. But, the likelihood of all the toms being killed is minuscule. Turkeys in Utah is, IMHO, one of the greatest success stories in conservation history for the state. Taking an animal that 30 years ago were nowhere to be found, and now are able to handle OTC hunting, is remarkable. I helped release the first turkeys in Tooele County, now they are more plentiful than jack rabbits. As long as they keep the early breeding season limited, but slowly increase the tags for them from where they are now, the turkey population will continue to grow. I predict that within the next 5-7 years we will be like most other states and have fall turkey hunts and even multiple bird bag limits.


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

proutdoors said:


> Turkeys in Utah is, IMHO, one of the greatest success stories in conservation history for the state. Taking an animal that 30 years ago were nowhere to be found, and now are able to handle OTC hunting, is remarkable.


I definitely agree with that! It is remarkable. I see them everywhere now. I have even seen them at 10,000 feet in the Uintas! I am excited to finally get a chance to hunt them this year. I have never hunted turkeys before though so I have a lot to learn.


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## elgobbler (Nov 22, 2007)

Proutdoors,
If your theory is so bullet proof, :?: then why does Colorado and Idaho (who have larger populations than we do) still maintain controlled units? I do agree that Utah has had some great success with the introduction of turkey's, but I find it hard to believe in areas (especially public land populations) that turkeys are running around like rabbits. I'd venture the guess that much of the source populations in Tooele county come from CWMU's, and or non-hunted populations. Turkey's are prolific reproducer's, but not ever year. Show me the science on specific population survival in Utah (beside counts and hunter harvest=basic)? Initially their were radio collared birds, but since they have been thrown birds around the state every year in hopes to increase number's, and i'm not against that(the more the merrier!), but until you can give exact survival statistics on a populaitons by population status, then I don't think your theory would hold up statewide (hence the importance of maintaining a few controlled units). I do think hunter effort may drop after a few years when some realize or think that hunting educated birds is to hard(which is the states thinking) , I just think the state hardly ever makes changes in management based on sound science (even if there biologist have put it i their face), its mostly political.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

elgobbler, I am not overly familiar with Idaho and how they manage their turkeys, but Colorado issues OTC tags for most areas, even allowing two turkeys per permit in most cases as well as a fall OTC season. 

As for most of the turkeys on Tooele County surviving on CWMU's, which CWMU? I don't believe there even is ONE in the entire county. :? Come on out anytime, and I will show you turkeys in droves on public land. The DWR, when the turkey permits were first issued, wanted success rates of 60+%, that is no longer the objective nor should it be. A hen will have 5-8 young survive per hatch, and since hens are not legal to kill for hunters, the population will continue to grow/stabilize as long as there are enough toms to breed them, which right now is more than the case. If hunters quit hunting turkeys because of 20-30% success rates, why do hunters still hunt general season deer/elk? :? The DWR wouldn't issue permits that would cause all the hard work done by the DWR and others to be undone, that makes no sense as a conspiracy theory.


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## elgobbler (Nov 22, 2007)

Proutdoor,
all i'm mostly saying is that one size almost never fits all in managing any species (look at big game), and I think the current regulations are to broad! I'd venture the guess that survival nesting production varies from region to region (5-8 young/ id bet is high for some areas), and do we know by how much? No! I agree, there are many areas in the state with robust turkey populations, but they won't stay like that with a one size fits all management system. I didn't know that habitat quality and predator densities are the same everywhere, and don't vary from year to year. Why not maintain a few controlled units to ensure some type of stability? The other states have managed to maintain opportunity with a limited number of controlled units.
Anyway, I better quit wasting my time! Thanks for the comments!


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## hockey (Nov 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> elgobbler, A hen will have 5-8 young survive per hatch, and since hens are not legal to kill for hunters, the population will continue to grow/stabilize as long as there are enough toms to breed them, which right now is more than the case. .


So what you are saying is not a population growth but a population explosion!!! Bring on unlimited turkey tags and year round seasons


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

hockey said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > elgobbler, A hen will have 5-8 young survive per hatch, and since hens are not legal to kill for hunters, the population will continue to grow/stabilize as long as there are enough toms to breed them, which right now is more than the case. .
> ...


 :? :? :?


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## mm73 (Feb 5, 2010)

proutdoors said:


> Come on out anytime, and I will show you turkeys in droves on public land.


I would take you up on that offer! :wink:


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## hockey (Nov 7, 2007)

:? :? :?[/quote]

Not sure what these mean, i will have to ask some of the little kids in the neighborhood
Outnumbering jackrabbits?
Turkeys in droves on public land?
5-8 survival rate per hen?
I think somebody has a little problem with exaggeration


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

hockey said:


> :? :? :?Not sure what these mean, i will have to ask some of the little kids in the neighborhood
> Outnumbering jackrabbits?
> Turkeys in droves on public land?
> 5-8 survival rate per hen?
> I think somebody has a little problem with exaggeration


Atta boy, add NOTHING to the topic, but hurl a bunch of insults. Good on ya!

It was obvious hyperbole on the jackrabbits, that should be obvious to anyone with any ability to think.
Turkeys are in droves on public land, thus the issuing of OTC tags this year. Think about it.
That is what the DWR has told me. I guess you're more of an expert on the matter than they are, since you've offered so much evidence on the subject......
I think someone is taking themselves way too serious while offering NOTHING to the discussion. -Ov-


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think the hunt right in the middle of breeding season is doing anything but hindering turkey production. As for the later hunt, go for it! It's the hens that do all the nesting and rearing of young. Toms are only needed to service females. One Tom can service numerous hens. As long as the hens are protected there's no reason to limit the number of hunters who can harvest a Tom. 

Now the April hunt is a bad idea, but people with points would cry if you did away with that hunt.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

It's a very limited number of tags issued in April, they have been having them for several years and yet the turkey populations keep growing in most areas.


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## birdman (Nov 21, 2007)

OK - where to start with this one? First of all, a survival of 5-8 poults per hen is way over exaggerated (although I like the idea). In states that do surveys on poult survival, a very good index would be in the 3-3.5 poults/hen range. Long term averages vary but are probably more on the order of 1.5-2 poults/hen. I don't know whether our DNR does any sort of poult survey to keep track. Only about 50% of eggs laid actually hatch. The average clutch per hen is 11. Only 30% of poults that hatch survive to be 3 weeks old. Thereafter, the average mortality, in both hunted and unhunted populations, is 50% per year, mostly as the result of predation. So, for every 1000 eggs laid, only 150 poults live to be 3 weeks old (whether they come from a hunted or unhunted population). Then that number is cut in half every year. So only 75 live to be 2 years old and so on. If 2 poults per hen survived every year and the remainder of the population was cut in half yearly, the population would still continue to grow. Removing 2 and 3 year old toms from a population hardly has any effect on turkey populations as young of the year make up 45-55% of the turkey population. So yes, turkey populations can swing depending on the hatch but it hardly has anything to do with the harvest of toms. 
As far as ID and CO still having controlled hunts, these are mostly in areas that still have both relatively low turkey densities and limited public access (east of I-25 in CO and the SE corner of ID). Maybe there are areas in UT that would still be appropriate for controlled hunts based on the same conditions, such as the Green River corridor and the Colorado River corridor, but I think most areas of our state are appropriate for the general season. In fact, I believe they should get rid of the early season controlled hunt and go statewide general season. Opening dates in surrounding states with general seasons are similar to ours with no clear negative impact on their populations.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Birdman...thanks. So many people try and equate birds with big game...they're just not the same and management tactics and strategies for one just doesn't apply to the other. I agree 100% with your statement that the "limited entry" early hunts are senseless. The one thing we DO NOT want to fall into is some management scheme that limits hunting opportunities in the name of...oh, I hate to even say the words...trophy turkey hunting. Setting aside the prime turkey hunting areas and reserving them for limited numbers of hunters...namely hunters that hire guides, etc is contrary to any turkey management plans anywhere in America. One "open to the public" hunting season is working every well all over America...thank you very much...and limiting access to areas for any other reason than benefiting the turkey populations is something Utah must never do.


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## mr.seven (Sep 18, 2007)

pro, turkey hunting in utah is either sex, proc states must be bearded of which 20 percent of hens have one


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

mr.seven said:


> pro, turkey hunting in utah is either sex, proc states must be bearded of which 20 percent of hens have one


I seriously doubt it's 20%, but I have seen a few hens with beards. In truth, how many hunters are going to shoot a hen with a beard in Utah? A non-issue, as proven in 45+ other states that have OTC tags, with many having two bird bag limits AND fall either sex' OTC hunts. As BP pointed out, these are birds not mule deer.


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## mr.seven (Sep 18, 2007)

the 20 percent figure comes from the proclamation which is a pretty large number. i would be willing to bet most people in utah would take one not having hunted them here before


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## birdman (Nov 21, 2007)

According to Dr. Lovett Williams, widely regarded as one of the nation's leading wild turkey biologists, only 4% of hens have beards. Since this is a genetic trait local populations could certainly exhibit a higher percentage. Inexperienced turkey hunters might be at risk of accidently killing a few bearded hens but I wouldn't lose much sleep over it.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Over the years I have seen quite a few bearded hens...I might believe 4%, but certainly not 20%, not even close...and there is one thing I can say about bearded hens...every single one I've ever seen looked like a hen with a beard. I have never seen a bird that looked like a Tom but turned out to have ovaries. I have examined two bearded hens over the years. One had a very thin wispy beard approximately 3-4 long the other had what you would say was a fairly normal Jake beard. Both birds had small hen like bodies and in every other way were hens with a beard. My suggestion is to take a good look at the birds head before you pull the trigger, it's the best indicator of the birds true sex. But if by chance you do shoot a bearded hen, don't feel to bad, you won't be the first or last...and the bird is legal.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Maybe we should all panic because some doe mule deer have antlers and are at risk of being killed. :shock:


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

all i know is that there is NO shortage of turkeys in the area i hunt and camp. Unfortunately we had a BIG flock decide the big trees over our camping property made for a great roosting site all summer long. I scraped tons of turkey crap off of the roof of our trailer in preparation for deer season last fall. A little more pressure might not hurt them either, because nothing spooked them last year, between 4 wheelers, kids riding the 50's and plenty of traffic coming and going, those big birds kept on roosting and pooping all summer long.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Me and the guys I hunted with during the general season hunt last year had a hard time finding the turkeys. They all got skunked but I was able to find one crossing the road


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## utduckguy (Dec 30, 2009)

I have been turkey hunting five years now,each year seems to get a little tougher.On my way down to my area last spring I ran into a DWR biologist and asked him is thoughts on the current areas turkey population and if the over the counter hunt would hurt the general hunt overall.He told me populations have been down the last few years and didnt really want to give a answer on the over the counter permits.I can say this I think this will definatly impact this hunt in a negitive way.Its going to turn out to be like every other general season out there where the hunters are not limited.Myself I would rather keep it a draw to keep quailty hunts.The area I hunt every year went to seeing nobody to tons of guys on the first saturday of the general season becasue of the increase of permits last year.I guess what bothers me the most is guys dont put in any effort on learning how to hunt turkeys.We saw guys road hunting in the back of there trucks in the middle of the day.All these type of hunters do are educating the birds (aka skybusting waterfowl) because they dont really care about hunting them just shooting at somthing.I think if you limit permits you weed out these type of hunters that buy a permit to just go shoot there gun without educatating themselves on what there hunting.This is a $$$$ for the DWR thats all.

Any new guys going out this year,rent or buy a dvd about turkey hunting,scout them,and reserch them online thats what i did when I first started.I have bagged 2 nice toms out of the 3 years I have had a tag.Each hunt was diffrent and harder so be prepared not to get one evertime out.I learned a ton last year becasue the birds were there but there behavior was completly diffrent from years past.If you plan on just road hunting you wont be succesful.


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## birdman (Nov 21, 2007)

utduckguy said:


> I have been turkey hunting five years now,each year seems to get a little tougher.On my way down to my area last spring I ran into a DWR biologist and asked him is thoughts on the current areas turkey population and if the over the counter hunt would hurt the general hunt overall.He told me populations have been down the last few years and didnt really want to give a answer on the over the counter permits.I can say this I think this will definatly impact this hunt in a negitive way.Its going to turn out to be like every other general season out there where the hunters are not limited.Myself I would rather keep it a draw to keep quailty hunts.The area I hunt every year went to seeing nobody to tons of guys on the first saturday of the general season becasue of the increase of permits last year.I guess what bothers me the most is guys dont put in any effort on learning how to hunt turkeys.We saw guys road hunting in the back of there trucks in the middle of the day.All these type of hunters do are educating the birds (aka skybusting waterfowl) because they dont really care about hunting them just shooting at somthing.I think if you limit permits you weed out these type of hunters that buy a permit to just go shoot there gun without educatating themselves on what there hunting.This is a $$$$ for the DWR thats all.
> 
> Any new guys going out this year,rent or buy a dvd about turkey hunting,scout them,and reserch them online thats what i did when I first started.I have bagged 2 nice toms out of the 3 years I have had a tag.Each hunt was diffrent and harder so be prepared not to get one evertime out.I learned a ton last year becasue the birds were there but there behavior was completly diffrent from years past.If you plan on just road hunting you wont be succesful.


There is no substitute for time in the woods...in hunting situations. The only way that can happen for folks on a consistent basis is a general season hunt. You never get the experience if you have to draw. My first 10 years of hunting turkeys I'd kill a bird every once in awhile and sometimes several years in a row, but I learned a ton during that time. Now, 25 years later, I almost always fill 5-6 tags a year in various states. My point is not to brag but rather that it takes time and experience to be consistently successful. Have I occasionally killed a bird I stumbled across, sure. Have I ever road hunted them or ridden an ATV while calling, no. Have I seen instances of these things in the other places I've hunted, yes. I don't expect Utah to be any different but that's no reason to keep it a draw. As far as the population goes, I think I posted something about it earlier in this thread and hunting has only marginal effects on the population dynamics of turkeys. I suspect the population being down the last couple of years has more to do with the weather, similar to chukar and grouse populations.

PLEASE don't practice your calling on scouting trips however. Get yourself a CD with real turkey recordings and practice in the car. You can learn a lot about the cadence of the calling from the real thing. The hunting videos are fun to watch but are mostly for entertainment purposes. They generally aren't hunting public land birds and, in my opinion, over call to get good video.


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## elgobbler (Nov 22, 2007)

I think duck guy is right about the quality of the general season. And that a lot of it comes down to money and selling more tags! I don't have anything against the general season units, but I do think there should be units that are controlled all season similar to Colorado and Idaho. One size doesn't fit all when managing different populations that have different management issues. Hopefully in a couple of years when most of the birds become educated that a lot of the general season casual hunters will give it up!


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