# Urban Goose



## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Oh what it could of been without Mother Natures (left jab and right hook) snow and hard freeze. I feel the weather and pressure pushed birds back into the city. If we would of had a slight thaw it could of been a total blood bath. I can't complain I had some fun hunts. The weather probably saved the lives of more geese especially breeding pairs than we could ever guess. So now that the season is over I'm hoping it snows like hell!!

I was able to hit my personal goal of shooting limits with 12, 20 and 28 gauges. The 20 and 28 hunt were very rewarding and the most memorable. On the 20 hunt the wind was horrible. We had to have the birds at our feet or they would catch a wing and they were gone. 

Next year the big 12's will be seeing more shelf time lol. Anybody looking for a well loved SBE or a warhorse 3.5" Citori? All the misses have been shot out both guns. lol


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Still looks like a very good extended season. Mine started off with a bang and ended with a thud only being able to take a single goose the last week of the hunt. The few shots I had last week were tough as the geese were very skittish and I ended up taking that final goose with a 12ga. Already working on a little better 20ga TSS goose load.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

JerryH said:


> Anybody looking for a well loved SBE or a warhorse 3.5" Citori? All the misses have been shot out both guns. lol


I'd buy the Citori off you if I felt I could afford it. And if it's the camo model, I would find a way to afford it. A Citori or something similar is definitely on the long-term wish list.

I have to agree with you on the weather. It seemed like the geese were starting to move a bit more before the snow and cold came back in. I can't complain about how my late season went, but I do think future seasons have the potential to be pretty amazing if the weather cooperates.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Man Jerry it looks like you had some fun to finish it out!!!

Better tell those 12's to get use the safe, as you seen, once you go small bore it's hard to go back:mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

On the 20 hunt I was using HW13 #4 shot and my buddy was shooting Remington (Rebate) Nitro #2 steel shot. Actually both loads stoned the birds. We were being patient and picking our shots. But we had to because of the strong wind that day. 

Having taken a 20ga to Canada the last 2 years and the number of geese we have shot with them was eye opening to say the least. The 20 will be tucked safely in the truck every year going forward. Specks & Snows fear the big 20!! They will have to pry the (Wal-Mart version - KSL impulse buy) Beretta 390 out of my cold dead hands! Best money I've ever spent.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

20 gauges are goose killas...so are you Jerry!
R


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Hey R

What 20 loads are you guys using? And why? You made the switch a few years ago and have liked the results?

I've tried Kent's 3" 7/8oz they work well but are to expensive for the payload. I've tried Federal 2.75" 3/4oz #4 steel on ducks and it worked just fine. I bought a case of the cheap Winchester #6 steel from Wal-Mart and it worked well on ducks. I've always overlooked Remington ammo but bought a case of 3" 1oz #2 steel Nitro's for the annual trip 2 years ago and was pleasantly surprised how well it worked on geese. This year with the fall and black Friday rebate programs I picked up 3 cases of the Remington 3" loads. It was to good of a price to pass up. I've bought 2 boxes of Heavy Metal to try out. They did not perform any better than other 20ga shells I've bought. I cut one open to check the contents and was not impressed with the pellet count or the lack of roundness of the Heavy Shot. And $27 is to expensive to pay for Flax seed.


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## Stimmy (Sep 10, 2007)

I have been using Estates 3" 4 1oz shot all season, and have been more than impressed. killed many popcorn eaters and chinstraps with this load.

did shoot some heavy shot at geese also, was really not impressed.

20 is the new 12


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

For ducks I shot 20 ga. Estate 2 3/4" #4 until I ran out. The rest of the season I shot 20 ga. Estate 3" #4 for ducks and geese. I also used 3" #3 Hevimetal for geese and it seemed to work good for me, but Eric didn't like the patterns it threw out of his Benelli (I shoot a Franchi). We only shoot at geese in range, so the 3" 20 gauge in #4 worked quite well for geese too. Also... I use an Improved choke. I was using a Modified, but found that the Improved killed birds cleanly.
R


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

I have a question for you guys that are using the lighter loads and smaller shot for geese-are you consciously going for head shots? I have body-shot geese with #4's at close range and they usually require either a finisher or being chased down. That was #4 steel though, I'm sure that #4 tungsten or HW would be a different story. Awesome job you guys, you are proving that the big guns and huge shot aren't necessary for bringing down the big birds.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

rjefre said:


> For ducks I shot 20 ga. Estate 2 3/4" #4 until I ran out. The rest of the season I shot 20 ga. Estate 3" #4 for ducks and geese. I also used 3" #3 Hevimetal for geese and it seemed to work good for me, but Eric didn't like the patterns it threw out of his Benelli (I shoot a Franchi). We only shoot at geese in range, so the 3" 20 gauge in #4 worked quite well for geese too. Also... I use an Improved choke. I was using a Modified, but found that the Improved killed birds cleanly.
> R


This report is amazing to me. In range for you must mean 20 yards or less. I shot steel for many years at geese and had horrible performance. That was the reason I wrote KPY Shotshell Ballistics program and started to load and shoot tungsten. I had to understand why my hevishot #4 load was so much superior to any steel shell I could buy or load. The difference is night and day and I do not consider hevimetal tungsten (it only contains about 30% of tungsten pellets and they are only about 10g/cc density). Nothing close in performance to real hevishot.


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## Stimmy (Sep 10, 2007)

we are very conscious about our shots. 30 yards would be max, (most were 20 yards) on both ducks and geese. i feel it has made me a better shot and a better, ethical hunter. we lost very few birds this year... now on to the 28!

also moved to improved cylinder half way thru the year, and was even more deadly
than Mod.
E


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

I've had 10 gauges in the past. I thought 12ga 3.5" T shot was the answer for a while. Then 3.5" BB was what seemed to be the best combo until I tried #1 shot. That worked well but still gave me a wringing headache. Then I cut down all my 3.5" hulls to 3" and loaded them with #1 steel. That worked good until I saw my buddy smashing geese with #2 steel so I down sized to #2 steel in the 12ga and it works great. Lighter load and no more headaches. If you pattern a standard load of #1 or #2 steel at 35 yards you will be impressed with the pattern density compared to larger sized shot with a bigger payload. Now what I think when a goose is in range compared to 15 or 20 years ago is like comparing apples to oranges. What I thought were decoying shots then are now shots that I pass up. The hunt for me is fooling the birds not just shooting them. 

Pumpgunner
During down time I think of shooting them in the lips. But what actually happens when I'm shooting is swinging through the bird a pulling the trigger. Hitting the bird is the only thing that I think of. lol Oh and keeping my cheek on the stock 

Toasty 
Any #8.5 TSS in stock? I want give the 410 a go. It will be HUMBLING but fun. lol

Stimmy 
If you need more coaxing on the 28 give me a shout. I got data from Toasty & HammernHonkers. I also bought the BPI Advantages Manual.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Jerry,

Still have a few lbs of TSS #8.5 is stock to sell. I liked the #8.5 better than the #9s in the 28ga this year. The #9s did the job, but I felt like I had fewer cripples with the #8.5 and it didn't put as many holes through the breasts.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Pumpgunner said:


> I have a question for you guys that are using the lighter loads and smaller shot for geese-are you consciously going for head shots? I have body-shot geese with #4's at close range and they usually require either a finisher or being chased down. That was #4 steel though, I'm sure that #4 tungsten or HW would be a different story. Awesome job you guys, you are proving that the big guns and huge shot aren't necessary for bringing down the big birds.


Pump I have had the same experience overall with the steel 4 shot and even 3 shot on geese, around 20 yards with a body hit only, the geese just don't stay down.

When I switched to the 20 about 9 years ago I killed a lot of geese with hevi shot 4's as I was targeting geese but every now and then I would be in a situation where I was loaded with 3 or 4 shot shooting ducks and learned very quickly that if I a goose come by in range I needed to get out on the front end of him and hit the head or break a wing because if I didn't they would just keep going or sail a long way's crippled.

Now with HW or TSS, this stuff even in the small shot sizes like Toasty likes (the TSS) due to it's density will easily penetrate even a large bird like a goose out to some scary ranges.

With what I have used i have settled on the following shot sizes as a minimum for my goose hunting situations no matter what I am doing, pass shooting, jump shooting or landing them in the decoy's because even if I make a bad shot and hit a bird middle back I know I will have enough penetration to make sure the shot gets into the vitals or breaks a wing. With hevi/hw13 4 shot, hw15 6 shot and TSS 7 shot. So far this seems to be working very well for me.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

hamernhonkers said:


> With what I have used i have settled on the following shot sizes as a minimum for my goose hunting situations no matter what I am doing, pass shooting, jump shooting or landing them in the decoy's because even if I make a bad shot and hit a bird middle back I know I will have enough penetration to make sure the shot gets into the vitals or breaks a wing. With hevi/hw13 4 shot, hw15 6 shot and TSS 7 shot. So far this seems to be working very well for me.


Good information, matches my personal minimums very well for geese which are Hevishot #4, HW13 #4, HW15 #5s, and TSS #7s. With the penetration for these shot sizes and densities, there really isn't a reason to go any bigger shot size for geese inside of 60 yards.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Last year I took Federal 20 gauge 2 3/4" 4s to Canada and they were very effective with a *skeet* choke tube. One year the case of shells I put in the truck to go to Canada was 12 gauge B&P 1 1/8 ounce of 4s instead of 3s. I was nervous at first, but we had no problem. I have never shot anything larger than 2 3/4" 3s for geese.

I think 2 3/4" 4s are okay for geese to about 30 yards. Like Jerry, I bought a few cases of the Remington 3" 20 gauge shells, 2 of the 4s and one of the 2s. I think the 2s will be good to 35-40 yards, the 4s again to maybe 30 yards.

Too bad they don't load 28 gauge 4s and 5s at a reasonable price. They would be fun in Canada, eh?


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

hamernhonkers said:


> Pump I have had the same experience overall with the steel 4 shot and even 3 shot on geese, around 20 yards with a body hit only, the geese just don't stay down.
> 
> When I switched to the 20 about 9 years ago I killed a lot of geese with hevi shot 4's as I was targeting geese but every now and then I would be in a situation where I was loaded with 3 or 4 shot shooting ducks and learned very quickly that if I a goose come by in range I needed to get out on the front end of him and hit the head or break a wing because if I didn't they would just keep going or sail a long way's crippled.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Honk. I'm having a hard time getting my mind around shooting #7's at geese but from all that I've heard online #7 TSS is more than enough for geese, that stuff is incredible! I would like to try some out someday. Have you done much loading with ITX? I'm curious how it would compare as a lower-cost heavyweight goose load.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Pump, I'm sitting on 14 lbs of ITX-10 but I still have not loaded any yet. Due to it's softness I am looking at it more for loading source for my 32 and 410 for ducks as I think I should be able to use nice shot data with it allowing me to use standard lead wads. Toasty has messed with it a bit and could chime in on it's effectiveness. 

My opinion on cost vs effectiveness vs range, ITX-10 would not be my first choice. The itx-10 is closer to 10g/cm3 and comes in at $154 per 7 lbs of shot or $22 a lb before shipping. The ITX-13 is a better choice and the same density as HW13 from RSI and comes in at $24 lb before shipping. The HW13 is my choice due to cost and density and if you get it when they offer free shipping and on a sale can be anywhere from $22 to $23 a lb.

The nice part with going with high density loads is that you can drop down shot sizes from what you would use with steel shot and use a lighter load but achieve higher pellet counts and better more uniform patterns to longer ranges.

My pet load right now is only 7/8 oz of HW13 4 shot moving at about 1450 fps. This load is basically equivalent in both pellet count and penetration of a 1 1/2oz load of BBB shot from a 10 bore, yet patterns far better then I could ever get that load to pattern out of my 10 bores.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> Last year I took Federal 20 gauge 2 3/4" 4s to Canada and they were very effective with a *skeet* choke tube. One year the case of shells I put in the truck to go to Canada was 12 gauge B&P 1 1/8 ounce of 4s instead of 3s. I was nervous at first, but we had no problem. I have never shot anything larger than 2 3/4" 3s for geese.
> 
> I think 2 3/4" 4s are okay for geese to about 30 yards. Like Jerry, I bought a few cases of the Remington 3" 20 gauge shells, 2 of the 4s and one of the 2s. I think the 2s will be good to 35-40 yards, the 4s again to maybe 30 yards.
> 
> Too bad they don't load 28 gauge 4s and 5s at a reasonable price. They would be fun in Canada, eh?


 Paddler I think your numbers for an effective distance are a little long for our interior geese. I'll give 3 of my most recent experiences where the exact range the birds were shot were known. Where I am hunting now I have two very small fields that I have access to. One of these fields I used a range finder to get an exact distance from road on the east end to where our blind was on the west side and it's only 280 yards. We have only a very small window of about 40 degrees to shoot due to houses on both sides and the shots have to be on the ground only due to the road being our block on the east side. I set my furthest decoy at 35 yards trying to keep it out far enough from the edge to not spook the geese but close enough to ensure the geese are in range. The first day we set up we had 3 geese set exactly 2 yards to the south of the middle decoy's which were exactly 33 yards out. I was shooting my 28 with HW13 4 shot and my buddy was shooting a 12 with a 1 1/4 oz load of steel 2 shot. Two of the geese were to the left (my side) and the 3rd on the right (his side). I lined the two birds up on my side and he the single, I called the shot and both geese I shot rolled dead and his (hit solid) flew all the way back to the road 200+ yards away before expiring. Upon necropsy of the birds the two I shot had complete pass through of almost all the hw13 pellets while the bird he shot with the number 2 steel only made into the lungs on a side shot with nothing passing through. Granted this was a standing shot with the wing feathers for added protection, those steel 2's at only 33 yards did not make it very far into the goose.

Two day's later similar field and similar requirements having to land the geese due to safety concerns. I set the geese again at 35 yards to my last decoy. This time we had a pair come in and they landed right in the front of the decoy's which were only 30 yards and started feeding while standing inside the decoy's. While waiting for them to walk out of the decoy's for a clear shot two more came in and lit with them. 4 geese at 30 yards total, me shooting the 28 with hw13 4 shot and him shooting steel 2 shot again. As soon as all 4 birds finally feed to the side out of the decoy's I again called the shot. My two shots putting the two geese on my side down dead, the two geese on his side, one dead and one crippled and running. As we were trying to run the cripple down the second bird that looked to be for sure dead got up and flew off back to the safety of a rest area where we couldn't access. Again doing necropsy on the birds, the hw13 4 shot went clean through while the steel 2 shot had penetrated the goose a way's and broke a wing but never made it to any vital areas to kill it. The bird that got up and flew off??? Best guess was a glancing blow to the head nocking it out temporarily and when it came to was able to fly off. This field we could shoot in the air as we had a wide open lane with nothing behind it for a safety concern.

I have a third recent example but it will have to wait as I have to get my kids to school. Just something to think about, steel 2 shot at those close ranges only doing that but yet thinking that steel 4 shot will be good to 30 for a honker???? Probably not the best advice to be giving out on the internet;-)


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

I agree that giving advice on using 20 ga. with #4 shot for geese is not a good idea because you can't account for variables like people's perception of what 25 yards really is. *Hopefully folks on here don't confuse my answering a question about what works for us with what I would recommend to others.*  I have had extremely good success with both 3" #4 steel and 3" #3 Hevimetal on geese...but we are *very selective* on our shots and almost always pass on any shot beyond 25 yds. A 30 yd shot would be considered "reaching out there". Like Jerry, I always think I'm going to shoot them in the head, but when it comes down to it, I rarely have the clarity of mind to actually focus on hitting them in the head...although I sometimes manage it. 
On ducks, I have no problems with 2 3/4" #4 steel for decoying ducks. It kills them dead, dead, dead!
R


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

rjefre said:


> I agree that giving advice on using 20 ga. with #4 shot for geese is not a good idea because you can't account for variables like people's perception of what 25 yards really is. *Hopefully folks on here don't confuse my answering a question about what works for us with what I would recommend to others.* I have had extremely good success with both 3" #4 steel and 3" #3 Hevimetal on geese...but we are *very selective* on our shots and almost always pass on any shot beyond 25 yds. A 30 yd shot would be considered "reaching out there". Like Jerry, I always think I'm going to shoot them in the head, but when it comes down to it, I rarely have the clarity of mind to actually focus on hitting them in the head...although I sometimes manage it.
> On ducks, I have no problems with 2 3/4" #4 steel for decoying ducks. It kills them dead, dead, dead!
> R


That's good advice R. I have personally killed geese with #2 Hevimetal, #3 Drylock steel, #4 Sportsman steel, and #5 Rio steel over decoys but I would personally only consider the #2 Hevimetal to be a decent over-decoys steel goose load. All the other shots were opportunities when we weren't expecting geese but had them decoy in anyway. Since I usually shoot steel my strategy is to have 2 duck loads on top and my 3rd shot to be a 3" BB, that way if we get geese in and I don't drop them with the first 2 shots I will have an honest steel goose load as my 3rd shot. I agree with #4 steel on decoying ducks, it crushes them! Again the key to all of this is making sure that the birds you are shooting at are in range, which to me usually means 35 yards or less.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

I once killed a goose with steel #5 shot at 25 yards while sneaking on some ducks. I've killed and not killed a lot of geese since then and learned that does not mean I can kill geese consistently with steel #5s. I have no doubt that 20ga #4s work for the guys that are landing geese in the decoys and sitting up shooting 15 to 20 yard shots, but for 35 yard large geese, you may as well shoot oatmeal as steel #4s IMO.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

HH, you are correct. I haven't used a rangefinder to confirm ranges, so don't have hard evidence to support #4 steel for geese at 30 yards. Then again, I'm talking frontal or side shots on the wing, so don't have to go through folded wings before reaching the vitals. YMMV.

It's difficult to accept that #2 steel wouldn't afford clean kills ground swatting geese at 33 yards, though. It looks like #2 steel and HW13 #8s at MV= 1500FPS have equivalent gel penetration at 51 yards (1.33" vs 1.31"), while #4 steel penetrates 1.07" at 45 yards. I'm guessing #2s should kill cleanly to at least 45 yards, and 30 yards seems reasonable for 4s on frontal or quartering shots. I will likely never shoot a goose at 45 yards, so I think the Federal 3" 2s will be deadly for us.

I have killed a few geese out to 25 yards with #6 steel, but that's because the pattern density often yields hits to the head and neck, which folds them up right now.

All I know is that #4 steel kills the birds I shoot at if I do my job. And, because I'm not a great wing shot, I like shooting birds close. I'll try to pay closer attention to range next season. I'm not recommending anything to anybody, just reporting my own experiences. Toasty, geese that land in the spread either get a pass or are flushed, we don't ground swat them. I think your estimates are too conservative. 

You may have posted the information before, but it would be interesting to see ballistics on the stuff you're shooting including pellet count, gel penetration, etc.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

First R, I am going to apologize to you and everyone as I reread my post and it sounded a little harsh I know every guy posting on this thread likes to shoot their birds in tight. I also know that Toasty and I are the exceptions/one's who push the range but that is due to our hunting styles as we don't always/are able to hunt over the blocks like you guys do due to our situations being different then yours. Please except my apology:mrgreen:

Now paddle, still questing his ability to estimate range-O,--O,--O,-


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> HH, you are correct. I haven't used a rangefinder to confirm ranges, so don't have hard evidence to support #4 steel for geese at 30 yards. Then again, I'm talking frontal or side shots on the wing, so don't have to go through folded wings before reaching the vitals. YMMV.
> 
> It's difficult to accept that #2 steel wouldn't afford clean kills ground swatting geese at 33 yards, though. It looks like #2 steel and HW13 #8s at MV= 1500FPS have equivalent gel penetration at 51 yards (1.33" vs 1.31"), while #4 steel penetrates 1.07" at 45 yards. I'm guessing #2s should kill cleanly to at least 45 yards, and 30 yards seems reasonable for 4s on frontal or quartering shots. I will likely never shoot a goose at 45 yards, so I think the Federal 3" 2s will be deadly for us.
> 
> ...


I guess I was tying as you were posting:mrgreen::mrgreen:

There is no doubt that steel 4's will kill birds all day long that are in range and have been my go to duck load the last two years with the 28. Of course for geese.....unless the bird is under 15 yards I wouldn't dare take the shot as I just don't trust those little light pellets getting through the body into vitals and I also don't trust myself putting the load on the head if they are in flight.

Geese on the ground, not my first choice as I like shooting birds in the air but as I was saying in my examples, I had no choice due to the situation where I was hunting, it was a ground/turkey shoot or nothing.

Steel 6's, yes they'll kill geese and kill them well with a head shot just as 7 shot will (I carry those for a finisher due to high pellet counts for head shooting cripples) but what about when you miss the head or neck?

Paddler I use 2.5" of penetration to assure a pellet will make it in to the vitals on a goose. Like you said a frontal or side shot with wings open require less penetration and more exposure to vitals and head (by the way the area of head and neck on a goose is similar to the entire area of green wing teal) but what about when you jump the birds out of the blocks and they are going straight away from you or you take the first shot as a side shot but then they turn to bug out and you shoot them going away exposing less head and neck and require deeper penetration to get to the lungs, heart etc..??

Using KPY, 7/8 oz of hw13 4 shot has pellet count of 100 and moving them at 1450 fps they will get you 2.5" of penetration to 63.5 yards at 1000" and 32 degrees.

Steel 2 shot at 1500 fps 1 1/4 oz load has 155 pellets but will only penetrate to 2.50" at 20 yards:shock:

Using the KPY calculator to get gel penetration to the 33 yards where the goose was shot in the first example you get 1.99" of penetration. Kind of fits/matches the results I seen on that bird after those pellets went through a wing a bit of breast and then into the lungs on that bird. Once again it was not an ideal shot and as a head shot would have been better and it did ultimately get the job done.

Steel 4 shot in a common 7/8 oz 20 gauge load (kents for example) 1550 fps........14 yards for 2.5" of penetration.

Now I will admit that 2.5" is a lot and more realistically 2.25 would be a good gauge for shot penetration, but I prefer to go with a little more just to make sure that if my range estimation is off, the load I choose still do the job:grin:

Last can your load of 2's pattern like this at 50 yards???:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:



Of course for turkey shooting them in the head on the ground this works better LOL



Paddler I think you a good guy and I know you have the utmost respect for the birds you hunt. As in politics though I just have a different perception on how and why things work then you do;-)


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

hamernhonkers said:


> As in politics though I just have a different perception on how and why things work then you do;-)


Oh no you didn't just bring paddler's politics into this :shock::grin:


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

hamernhonkers said:


> I guess I was tying as you were posting:mrgreen::mrgreen:
> 
> There is no doubt that steel 4's will kill birds all day long that are in range and have been my go to duck load the last two years with the 28. Of course for geese.....unless the bird is under 15 yards I wouldn't dare take the shot as I just don't trust those little light pellets getting through the body into vitals and I also don't trust myself putting the load on the head if they are in flight.
> 
> ...


I think you're way overestimating the gel penetration required to kill birds cleanly, given frontal or quartering shots. I'm guessing 1.50" is enough, probably less. You'd better hope you don't center a goose at 15 yards with even 3/4 ounce of 4s. Having done it myself, it's an ugly sight and there's not much left to eat. Of course, shooting them in the butt is completely different, and I really don't like that shot.

What is the gel penetration of 4s with a MV=1400FPS at 25 yards? I guarantee 100% lethality at that range. How about 30 yards?

I do not recommend #6 steel for geese. When I killed 3 with that load I was shooting a very lightly built 20 gauge Beretta BL-4 with fixed IC/M chokes. The thing weighs 5#14oz, predates steel, circa 1968, and I was hunting ducks primarily. They just happened to lock up and sail right in and I couldn't resist the shot. That load is reliable on even large ducks at 25 yards, some say farther. What is the gel penetration of #6 steel with a MV of 1325FPS at 25 yards?

I have no idea what my patterns look like beyond 35 yards, as I rarely take those shots. It would be interesting to pattern some 20 gauge loads at close range, say 20, 25 and 30 yards. The 1 ounce loads of #4s has 192 pellets, and you might be surprised how effective they are at 30 yards.



toasty said:


> Oh no you didn't just bring paddler's politics into this :shock::grin:


Politics? Did somebody mention politics? I was recently quite surprised to learn that I agree with a very conservative Republican on at least one issue. Lindsey Graham said that choosing between Trump and Cruz was like having to choose between being shot or poisoned. I laughed out loud.:mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Those are impressive patterns Hammer.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

toasty said:


> Oh no you didn't just bring paddler's politics into this :shock::grin:


Lol it's the of season.

Paddler I'll run the numbers when I can but right now I'm of to coach my little girls b ball game.

Thank you Jerry. That hw13 Load is tight. I'll have to post what it looks like at 25 for paddler so he can raz me about it.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

hamernhonkers said:


> Lol it's the of season.
> 
> Paddler I'll run the numbers when I can but right now I'm of to coach my little girls b ball game.
> 
> Thank you Jerry. That hw13 Load is tight. I'll have to post what it looks like at 25 for paddler so he can raz me about it.


Yep. Tight patterns at 50 yards just guarantees more misses for me at the ranges I shoot. Jerry has seen me shoot, so he can vouch for the fact that I need all the pattern I can get.;-)

Terminal ballistics is a very interesting topic. The question is how much gel penetration is required to give clean kills. I'm quite sure that 2.5" is far more than needed. I saw one table that compared #3 steel penetration at 600FPS, which is 1.28", with other sizes of steel shot. Is that enough for geese? How about ducks? Is kinetic energy a more accurate predictor of clean kills? How about momentum?


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> I think you're way overestimating the gel penetration required to kill birds cleanly, given frontal or quartering shots. I'm guessing 1.50" is enough, probably less. You'd better hope you don't center a goose at 15 yards with even 3/4 ounce of 4s. Having done it myself, it's an ugly sight and there's not much left to eat. Of course, shooting them in the butt is completely different, and I really don't like that shot.
> 
> What is the gel penetration of 4s with a MV=1400FPS at 25 yards? I guarantee 100% lethality at that range. How about 30 yards?
> 
> ...


Ok steel 4's at 1400 fps show 1.68" at 25 yards and steel 6 shot at 1325 fps gets you 1.10" at 25 yards. Paddler if you think a steel 6 will get you to vitals at 25 yards "through the bird" not head or neck hit, your nuts-O,- Your steel 4's at 30 yards gets you 1.46" of penetration. After 30 to 35 yards it seems I get a lot of birds coming back to hand not dead but clearly hit solid in the breast yet the steel 4 shot moving at 1450 fps didn't seem to make it to a vitals of a duck......yet your telling me it will kill a goose 4 times the size of a duck at 30???? What am I missing here??

I told you I'm more then likely over doing it with penetration of 2.5" and I believe that 2.25" is more realistic for any shot angle presented in flight or on the ground but like I said earlier I would rather error on the side of over loaded then under on a goose

Here is the 25 yard pattern of HW13 4 shot like I promised so you can give me grief:mrgreen:



Here is a 30 yard pattern of 5/8 oz of 4 shot. Yep it really will do a number on ducks but I still wouldn't body punch a goose with it:shock:








[/URL]IMG_3958 [/IMG]



paddler213 said:


> Yep. Tight patterns at 50 yards just guarantees more misses for me at the ranges I shoot. Jerry has seen me shoot, so he can vouch for the fact that I need all the pattern I can get.;-)
> 
> Terminal ballistics is a very interesting topic. The question is how much gel penetration is required to give clean kills. I'm quite sure that 2.5" is far more than needed. I saw one table that compared #3 steel penetration at 600FPS, which is 1.28", with other sizes of steel shot. Is that enough for geese? How about ducks? Is kinetic energy a more accurate predictor of clean kills? How about momentum?


The 600 fps rule with 3 shot is the only somewhat accurate use of that rule and that is only for ducks not geese. It gets used a lot on another form and I only know of one man who buys into it with any shot size other then 3 shot.

Energy density, Yes I believe that is also a good indicator of lethality.

Momentum??? Ah please explain how you apply??


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

That's a tight pattern for sure! Doesn't really fit my hunting style.;-)

Regarding steel 4s, 1.5" of gel penetration at 30 yards is about what I expected. I think that load will kill geese at that range. I'm pretty sure that happened last year in Canada, and will pay closer attention to range next year. Again, not recommending that to anyone else, it just seems to work for us. Of course, we're using 3/4 ounce of shot, so 144 pellets. The new 1 ounce loads should be killer. Remember that because a goose is three, maybe four times the size of a duck doesn't mean you need four times the penetration for clean kills.

I cannot explain why #6 steel is so deadly on ducks at 25 yards. Maybe 1.1" of penetration is enough, maybe it's pattern density, all I know is that it works well. I've shot enough limits to feel comfortable using it.

The above discussion assumes careful shot selection. One must be disciplined enough to not attempt straight away shots at longer ranges.

The table I mentioned calculated the velocity of different shot sizes that provide 1.28" of penetration. Here's a link. Click on the image results and poke around. It's titled, aptly enough, Equivalent Penetration by Various Steel Shot Sizes......:

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search...pe=ss_ch_ds_ix&p=steel shot ballistics charts

It says that #6 steel will penetrate 1.28" at 763FPS, which is 28 yards given a MV=1550. For 4s, the velocity required is 647 FPS, which occurs at 43 yards. These yardages must corrected for actual MV, of course.

Kinetic energy is often mentioned as a measure of how effective a load will be. It's calculated using the formula E= M(mass)/2 x V(velocity) squared. Some think that this overemphasizes the velocity component, and that momentum is a better indication of penetration. The formula is Momentum= Mass x Velocity. Not sure how one calculates Energy Density.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> I cannot explain why #6 steel is so deadly on ducks at 25 yards. Maybe 1.1" of penetration is enough, maybe it's pattern density, all I know is that it works well. I've shot enough limits to feel comfortable using it.
> 
> The above discussion assumes careful shot selection. One must be disciplined enough to not attempt straight away shots at longer ranges.


John you have defiantly answered why your loads work well for you many times but I don't believe you've answered how they work well enough as I believe it's not so much a function of penetration as it is pattern density and shot placement by you.

I remember a few years back being told that steel 6 shot was worthless for anything larger then a dove, well I had to see this for myself. I was jump shooting a very small warm ditch just after freeze up that was loaded with mallards. Well I put those little 6's to work, every bird that came up I just flattened them putting them right back down. I came out of there with 7 birds in 8 shots and I don't believe I ever shot over 25 yards. When I say I flattened these birds, I was not kidding. Both wings broken, both legs broken, multiple hits to the head and neck. Now what got interesting was when I was cleaning them I found very little in way of pellets in the meat (due to shooting them in the back and their lack on penetration), I was thinking wow this is a perfect load. Well I went back a couple day's later and tried it again. Started out by flattening a couple of birds on the first couple of jumps and I was thinking to myself yep here we go again.... Well it was about the 3rd jump when it happened, 4 or 5 mallards come up and I empty my gun watching feathers flying off of two drakes but neither came down. I watched those birds with the binoes flying away, just when they were getting almost to far to see, one's drops from the sky and there was no way I was going to find it. Next jump same, the similar thing happened with me flattening one bird but them just blowing feathers off another only to watch is fly off. After having this happen one more time I decided to go back to my favorite load of 3's and once again the birds started dropping. I got replaying what had happened and for what ever reason I was realized I was stopping my swing and hitting those ducks in the back bottom end doing no real damage, just blowing feathers off them. Well next trip back I switched back to the 3 shot and found this time that even if I shot middle back on a bird (which I did a couple of times) that bird went down because those larger pellets, even though they weren't breaking wings and hitting the head were blowing through the bird and penetrating well into and through the vitals.

So John you have shown that those 6's and 4's work well for you due to your shot selection allowing you to get to the front end of the birds and hitting heads and necks. My questions is, (I know your being modest about your shooting ability;-)) what happens to that goose when on those rare occasions that you do hit the back end of the bird and not the front end.

Yes it happens even with good shooters like you? You think you missed a bird clean but yet you actually managed to put enough pellets into the back end that could of penetrated to vitals but didn't because you choose to use a load that was not capable of enough penetration to get to those vitals and that birds flies away only to die due to an infection or something else?

I can tell you that I am not that good nor patient of a shot to only pick and choose like you do, so for me and I would guess most hunters (just an observation from the field), we should error on the side of both pattern density and penetration because most of us are just not patient enough to wait for that perfect shot.

You guys on this thread who are willing and capable of waiting for those perfect shots have my utmost respect and I mean that with total sincerity guys.

One day I will make it to where I have that kind of patience:mrgreen:


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

I wasn't being modest. I have a real master eye problem that makes shooting well consistently difficult. There aren't many things I dislike so much as crippling birds, so I am very cautious about shot selection. I actually shoot a better than average percentage, but that's not because I shoot well.

Butt shooting birds requires substantially more penetration than frontal or quartering shots. Like Jerry, the most exciting part of waterfowl hunting is fooling the birds. It gives me no pleasure to scratch down flaring birds, and I suck at it so hold fire. I've killed enough that numbers don't matter. I almost always shoot only those birds I want to eat. I say almost because I shot a single spoonie this season. Couldn't help it.:shock:

Steel 6s can result in some of the most decisive kills you'll ever see. This one landed just like this:



The other side:


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

When the topic of small shot started heating up I new somewhere in the back of my mind that this long lost photo would show up. Great pic Jon! I don't think it will win any awards from PETA. lol 

Well if anything this has been a very informative thread. We all like shooting what we like. Hammer where do you get all the slip sheets? That's what I used to use before I made this pattern board.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> I wasn't being modest. I have a real master eye problem that makes shooting well consistently difficult. There aren't many things I dislike so much as crippling birds, so I am very cautious about shot selection. I actually shoot a better than average percentage, but that's not because I shoot well.


That truly sucks man and I am sorry you have to deal with it. It would drive me nuts and as I love shooting and with it being something that my family also likes doing I would go nuts if I struggled to be a part of it.



paddler213 said:


> Butt shooting birds requires substantially more penetration than frontal or quartering shots. Like Jerry, the most exciting part of waterfowl hunting is fooling the birds. It gives me no pleasure to scratch down flaring birds, and I suck at it so hold fire. I've killed enough that numbers don't matter. I almost always shoot only those birds I want to eat. I say almost because I shot a single spoonie this season. Couldn't help it.:shock:


I wish I could say that I was to the point where fooling the birds was the number one priority for me but I haven't reached that point yet. I would say that I am 60% there and especially when my wife goes out with me. There is just something about watching her or my kids when a bird is locked up and hovering over the blocks, then they pop up and between the excitement on her face and the deer in the headlights look of the bird......priceless8)

The second part of that also is really about making the shot, I'm a shooter and I like to use my gun's/loads/chokes and my ability to their fullest. One of my dreams is to get over to Britten and hunt the tidal flats in a traditional way shooting skeins of pinks heading inland to feed. One day......



paddler213 said:


> Steel 6s can result in some of the most decisive kills you'll ever see. This one landed just like this:


I remember seeing that picture in past conversation we were having about the use of small shot and small bores. There is no doubt that a large number of small shot hitting a bird as close range will make a mess. One question I do have though with that and that bird is, how many holes were in the breast and how deep did they penetrate?? LOL I couldn't help it.

I'll ask this one favor of you next season when you go to Canada and you are shooting those tame geese feet down breast on, do an honest necropsy on the birds and see just how many of those little number 4 pellets actually made it through the breast, breast plate and into the boiler room and at what ranges they were actually able to do so?


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

JerryH said:


> When the topic of small shot started heating up I new somewhere in the back of my mind that this long lost photo would show up. Great pic Jon! I don't think it will win any awards from PETA. lol
> 
> Well if anything this has been a very informative thread. We all like shooting what we like. Hammer where do you get all the slip sheets? That's what I used to use before I made this pattern board.


Jerry that looks like a very nice set up!!

This thread heating up?? Na just a nice open discussion between me and Jon We could go political and see where that leads:shock::mrgreen:

I manage a grocery store so I have an endless supply of those lying around. My wife gets mad at me as I tend to look for the best ones then bring them home and they build up in my shed. I can honestly say I really need to start a new project as I do have way to many built up again....Guess it really is time to get to work on the 410 as I am planning on using it for my next swan hunt which should be this coming fall. If so I really will have to meet up with you and Jon for a hunt. I would even let him touch off some of my over priced/over kill 28 loads at a *******;-)


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Yeah, that's the bloodiest duck I've ever seen, which is why I took the photo. Here's another #6 steel kill. I'm probably a little warped, and my wife doesn't get my dead bird photos, but I like taking pictures of birds just how they landed. I wouldn't have done this in the old film days, but it's free in digital. I've posted this before, but it's still cool. It was dead in the air:



I'm doing a project, which is selecting hunting and fishing photos from my years in the outdoors and having them printed up to display in my gun room. I may include this one.

This has been a great discussion. It would be really interesting to learn how much penetration is required for clean kills on ducks of all sizes and geese in the 8#-10# range, excluding raking shots. We could then try to determine how much velocity is required for each type and size of shot to penetrate that distance. Once one knows that, we could pretty much calculate the effective range of our loads. Or, we could just go out and shoot stuff.;-)

Jerry, I'm done with politics. Too busy watching "Justified".


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Justified?? You should be watching Shameless. William H Macy plays the best scumbag ever.

The bloody Pintail pic should be entered in the Salt Lake County Fair. You love a good uproar lol


I really want to try a good 410 hunt with HW13 or TSS shot. I'm thinking of breaking out the old LL Beans and an old canvas jacket and doing a vintage type hunt with modern shot. I've tried it with Winchester #6 steel loads and managed to kill a nice fat Mallard. But I didn't pick the right location for that hunt. I was in to tight of cover and had to pass on a lot of birds.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

JerryH said:


> Justified?? You should be watching Shameless. William H Macy plays the best scumbag ever.
> 
> The bloody Pintail pic should be entered in the Salt Lake County Fair. You love a good uproar lol
> 
> I really want to try a good 410 hunt with HW13 or TSS shot. I'm thinking of breaking out the old LL Beans and an old canvas jacket and doing a vintage type hunt with modern shot. I've tried it with Winchester #6 steel loads and managed to kill a nice fat Mallard. But I didn't pick the right location for that hunt. I was in to tight of cover and had to pass on a lot of birds.


Timothy Olyphant plays US Marshall Raylan Givens. It's set in Kentucky, and he shoots quite a few people. Very entertaining. My favorite quote is when he was being questioned by the US Marshall service about some of their money that came up missing. He said, "You think I stole that money? Just cause I shoot a few people now and then doesn't make me a thief." They also play "You'll Never Leave Harlan Alive", performed by Brad Paisley. Awesome. I'll have to look for "Shameless". Loved Macy in "Fargo".


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

Paddler, when you say you have a real master eye problem, does that mean you are left-eye dominant? I am left-eye dominant (and I am right handed) and it has always been a struggle to aim a shotgun accurately. This is probably a topic for another thread, but by now, probably no one is reading this anyway...
R


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

*Nice pics*

@JerryH.
Loved your pics of birds laying on your airboat!


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