# 2018 proposed changes



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/wildlife-news/2122-proposed-changes-for-2018-big-game-hunts.html


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

I like them all honestly. Only thing I'd change is make the early season rifle statewide vs select units.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

brendo said:


> I like them all honestly. Only thing I'd change is make the early season rifle statewide vs select units.


Agreed I'd like to see every unit have the same early rifle hunt to relieve the congestion of the rifle hunt. I also love the 3 season elk idea. I've always wanted to hunt elk for the 3 general seasons.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Yea! Dedicated Hunter elk tags without the hours.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

> Hold a late-season limited-entry muzzleloader buck deer hunt on general deer hunting units that are meeting their buck-to-doe objectives. The hunt would happen in early November.


Glad you posted this. Yesterday I started writing a detailed letter to the RAC / Wildlife board in opposition to this. It is a bad idea on so many levels. If a unit is above or at the objective, issue more general tags. Period. That is the entire purpose of how General units were to be managed.

Lets take the Wasatch General unit. According to the most recent DWR harvest report (2015), it had an overall success rate of 29.8%. So they were able to sell 3 tags per deer killed.

If you take the average LE Muzzleloader success rate across the state, its 72.9%... and that is during September. How successful will a LE hunters be during Nov during the rut? Arguable much much higher. Lets take the LE average, drop off the two lowest units harvest rates (Fillmore and Kamas), and the average success rate is now 89.97!!! So the DWR was able to sell 1.11 tags per deer killed.

What this means is basically for every LE ML Deer tag issued, you eliminate 3 general season hunters!

WHY???

If the state wants LE ML Deer seasons then run them on the LEs, where the entire objective is skewed in favor of that type of management. There is no need for this on a General season unit, if the unit is over objective issue 3 more tags per deer and increase the opportunity, which is the goal of the General season units vs the Quality of the LE's.

-DallanC


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I have a hard time with LE ML hunts on every general season unit and moving the qualifier for those units to the minimum BD ratios. That idea will increase the wait to draw general season tags and place more pressure on the mature buck segment of the herd after they lived thru 3-4 general season hunts.


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## kailey29us (May 26, 2011)

I love the idea of being able to hunt all three elk hunts, even if I had to work hours like the deer dedicated hunter program!!!! I have wanted to hunt elk during the rifle hunt for years but I was not willing to give up my archery elk experience to do it.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Although I like the 3 weapon elk season and could benefit from it. I must say this is a huge gimmick hunt for the dwr. With 80k elk in the state what percentage of that population do you think resides on public general bull ground. I would say around 5-10%. So what better way to get an extra 100$ from elk hunters but still have sub part general bull units.
But hey I own all three weapons and have had good success in the Uintas bring it on


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## Tall Tines (Apr 16, 2017)

I LOVE the general season elk 3 hunt idea. I also love the late LE ML on GS units as well. Finally, they are starting to listen to what people want!

If you don't like the GS elk hunt in an any bull unit. Feel free to move to a spike unit. If you don't wanna hunt a spike unit, and just like to bitch, shut up. 3 seasons of hunting is well worth the extra $100 and triples your chances of finding and killing a bull on an any bull unit


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## 30-06-hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

So in theory if they do have the early buck hunt during the general elk season you could harvest a buck, cow, and a bull together.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I’m not a huge fan of the late LE Seasons either. I would rather see the 2 GS rifle hunts on all units and raise the tags slightly rather than do the late season muzzleloader hunts, it does give people far more opportunity.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

I always have a archery elk tag, and have often wanted to hunt the rifle when unsuccessful. So I personally like this idea and will benefit from the multi-season elk hunt. No idea if it?s a good idea for the herds, but I?ll take advantage of this tag if the proposal is approved.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I haven’t read the full summary of everything yet. Will there be a limit of 3 season tags available? Or will they just be available with the other 15,000 spike tags and you just choose to purchase 3 seasons rather than one?


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## kdog (May 4, 2015)

will not the early deer rifle hunt largely coincide with the rifle elk? and thus make it very very crowded?

love the idea of elk for all three seasons though.


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## jonesthenewbs (Aug 23, 2017)

^This is exactly what I was thinking when I read that.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

kdog said:


> will not the early deer rifle hunt largely coincide with the rifle elk? and thus make it very very crowded?
> 
> love the idea of elk for all three seasons though.


Yes the rifle spike hunt will run from October 6-18. I guess the thinking may be that it is only specific units, you could hunt deer and elk at the same time, and it will lessen pressure on the later rifle hunt. It will probably benefit the normal rifle hunt more than the earlier one. I like the idea of splitting the tags and would support it statewide. Yes it coincides with the GS elk hunt, but it will help the later elk hunt. I see the point though, it will still be crowded.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Tall Tines said:


> I LOVE the general season elk 3 hunt idea. I also love the late LE ML on GS units as well. Finally, they are starting to listen to what people want!
> 
> If you don't like the GS elk hunt in an any bull unit. Feel free to move to a spike unit. If you don't wanna hunt a spike unit, and just like to bitch, shut up. 3 seasons of hunting is well worth the extra $100 and triples your chances of finding and killing a bull on an any bull unit


Ha actually I love the general bull and really like my odds of putting a 6th general season bull on my wall. With three seasons I should not have an issue.

I can see it now though it is going to get real busy on all three hunts. But I am fine with that to because I use it to my advantage every year.

Going to be overcrowded complaints coming Is all I am saying. Take a chill pill


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## Wasatchwigeons (Aug 27, 2017)

I worry about the late season muzzleloader tags getting in the way of the extended archery unit if they chose to use any of those units. Hunting deer during the rut with a gun doesn't really seem fair to me. Extended archery is already extremely crowded anyways


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

More details:
Http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2017-11_rac_packet.pdf


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

One thing you guys need to remember with the late season muzzle loader tag is it's considered LE and you have to use le points for it. Very limited tag numbers I looked into it a bit 2 or so years ago and I think most units were 3-5 tags and the most has 12 or something. Even with a 50-60 percent success that's still only a handful of bucks. I like it because it's adds some diversity and takes a little pressure off the LE Point pool with very little affect on any particular unit. Plus, it's not even during the rut it's starts right after the rifle hunt ends so I don't see it as much of an advantage I would honestly like to see it pushed back to middle of November.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

brendo said:


> One thing you guys need to remember with the late season muzzle loader tag is it's considered LE and you have to use le points for it. Very limited tag numbers I looked into it a bit 2 or so years ago and I think most units were 3-5 tags and the most has 12 or something. Even with a 50-60 percent success that's still only a handful of bucks. I like it because it's adds some diversity and takes a little pressure off the LE Point pool with very little affect on any particular unit.


If you want to use data, lets use the real data. Today there are units with 20-30 LE ML tags and the average success rate was almost 80% in 2016. in 2016 there were 120 LE ML tags on General units. That created opportunity for 120 hunters, but took away 240+ tags from general season hunters. It does take a "little" pressure off the LE pool of applicants, but it increases the pressure on the General Season pool. All in General Season Units.

..


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

brendo said:


> One thing you guys need to remember with the late season muzzle loader tag is it's considered LE and you have to use le points for it. Very limited tag numbers I looked into it a bit 2 or so years ago and I think most units were 3-5 tags and the most has 12 or something. Even with a 50-60 percent success that's still only a handful of bucks. I like it because it's adds some diversity and takes a little pressure off the LE Point pool with very little affect on any particular unit. Plus, it's not even during the rut it's starts right after the rifle hunt ends so I don't see it as much of an advantage I would honestly like to see it pushed back to middle of November.


I definitely wouldn't support it and fight it if they wanted to move it even deeper into November, our general season units need some breaks. If people want to put in for LE deer points and never draw thats their choice. I don't have a huge problem with it as it is now in offering 4-10 tags per unit if they are meeting objective, but putting it in the deep rut and essentially targeting all older age class bucks on general seasons units is just way to far IMO. Even currently the success rates are running at about 90%, put it into later November and you are just killing off your older age class of bucks. So many of the big bucks that breed does that I've watched come back year after year would get killed even if the current seasons stretched a few more days and I would much rather see them make it and breed does. At the very least leave it where it is, that or get rid of it. I understand the opportunity, but we don't need to do it at the expense of the last few truly old age class bucks on every unit. I would like to see no more than 5 tags given for any unit in the state personally for this late hunt. People are burning points on them as the season dates currently are, leave it.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

brendo said:


> One thing you guys need to remember with the late season muzzle loader tag is it's considered LE and you have to use le points for it. Very limited tag numbers I looked into it a bit 2 or so years ago and I think most units were 3-5 tags and the most has 12 or something. Even with a 50-60 percent success that's still only a handful of bucks. I like it because it's adds some diversity and takes a little pressure off the LE Point pool with very little affect on any particular unit.


Why are 12 LE ML hunters more important than the 36 other hunters we could have? You are saying it might lower LE points, but it will be at the cost of General points.

And your 40-50 percent success? Are you serious? I've already shown the current Sept LE ML crowd is at 72.9% success. You honestly think hunting during the rut wont match or beat that? I'll bet you money it will run 90% or higher.

Look, its simple. General Units were created as a mass opportunity type unit vs the Limited Entry where opportunity is more restricted, but with a higher chance at quality. Its a huge mistake to open this door, to mix the types of hunts.

We should be trying to create as much opportunity as we can on General Season units. If the population increases, the number of general tags should increase as well. Creating a new high success hunt just goes against everything General units were created for, and actually limits hunting opportunities.

And we haven't even discussed breeding interruptions. Does not bred in first estrus get bred the next a month later (hopefully) but then they drop fawns a month later, and subsequently have a months less growth by the time they have to endure their first winter. This translates into fawn loss which hurts everything the following year.

Why even open this door. There just isn't a strong positive reason for it, and lots of very bad negatives.

-DallanC


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## brendo (Sep 10, 2013)

Packout said:


> brendo said:
> 
> 
> > One thing you guys need to remember with the late season muzzle loader tag is it's considered LE and you have to use le points for it. Very limited tag numbers I looked into it a bit 2 or so years ago and I think most units were 3-5 tags and the most has 12 or something. Even with a 50-60 percent success that's still only a handful of bucks. I like it because it's adds some diversity and takes a little pressure off the LE Point pool with very little affect on any particular unit.
> ...


I'm all for opportunity and I see where your coming from. But that's less than 1/2 a percent of general season tags to create in my opinion, a cool and unique hunt. I think it's a small price to pay.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Ya know they could keep the general hunts the same if they closed some roads. 

I also think it would be better to run the general elk and deer the whole month of October to help with the crowding issue. If you done like hunting with other people hunt the second or third week. Let a majority of people hunt the 1st and 4th week. 

I like the Montana and Wyoming style of hunting with extended seasons rather than the New Mexico and Colorado style with multiple short seasons. 


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Can't support increased ml tags of any kind with our current ml restrictions are a joke.

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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Being able to hunt all three elk seasons is a bad idea, think the rifle season is crowded now just wait until all the archery and muzzy guys start hunting the rifle season then all the archery and rifle guys hunt the muzzy season. I think this is going to destroy elk hunting in Utah. A lot of archery guys were complaining about all the people that were out on archery season this year well figure at least half of them archery hunters will be in the woods for the rifle season as well making an already crowded hunt way worse.
I hope the rifle and muzzy hunters band together and start hitting the RAC meetings in force to voice there concerns as the only ones benefiting from this will be the archery hunters.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Ya know they could keep the general hunts the same if they closed some roads.
> 
> I also think it would be better to run the general elk and deer the whole month of October to help with the crowding issue. If you done like hunting with other people hunt the second or third week. Let a majority of people hunt the 1st and 4th week.
> 
> ...


Ya what's wrong with lengthening the seasons? More animals harvested and maybe less crowding.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

muddydogs said:


> Ya what's wrong with lengthening the seasons? More animals harvested and maybe less crowding.


Longer seasons = higher success rates = fewer permits offered. Always tough to balance quality and opportunity.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

muddydogs said:


> ...the only ones benefiting from this will be the archery hunters.


The DWR also benefits as the permit is $150 instead of $50.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Clarq said:


> Longer seasons = higher success rates = fewer permits offered. Always tough to balance quality and opportunity.


Well they want more elk harvested so longer seasons would accomplish the same thing while not creating a rifle season disaster.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

muddydogs said:


> Being able to hunt all three elk seasons is a bad idea, think the rifle season is crowded now just wait until all the archery and muzzy guys start hunting the rifle season then all the archery and rifle guys hunt the muzzy season. I think this is going to destroy elk hunting in Utah. A lot of archery guys were complaining about all the people that were out on archery season this year well figure at least half of them archery hunters will be in the woods for the rifle season as well making an already crowded hunt way worse.
> I hope the rifle and muzzy hunters band together and start hitting the RAC meetings in force to voice there concerns as the only ones benefiting from this will be the archery hunters.


It all depends on how the permits are sold muddydogs. Currently there are 15,000 spike tags sold. The majority of those people hunt the rifle hunt, so either way there are only 15,000 tags to be sold. I belive the 3 season tags will still only come from that pool of tags (which isn't clearly detailed in the proposals) which mean you will still have the same amount of tags sold, just those pool of guys hunting all 3 seasons. It really shouldn't affect crowding much at all. It may affect success rates and maybe the Any Bull units need some sort of antler restriction or something to ensure success rates don't overly damage those herds. I support the idea, I don't think it will affect crowding, success rates may climb which may not be good in any bull units, I don't think spike units will be affected much at all.

PS, I also wonder how many people of the 15,000 that buy spike tags are actually willing to spend $100 more. If most the muzzy Hunt will be much busier.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I agree with hazmat. The bull elk option is cash money for those with good any bull hunt intel. Flat out increases opportunity!!!

I was talking to my brother while we skinned his buck tonight about this option. He was very giddy about it having taken on the challenge of the archery hunt the last two years and then watching me drop bulls during the any bull rifle hunt on opening day directly after in the same area he archery hunted.

I guess I better get a bow now and start practicing with him next summer. 

An extra hundo is a drop in the bucket to add a couple weapons and over a month of season to my any bull hunt!

I dont think this option will be near as popular for the spike only hunters but we will see.

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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Actually archery tags are unlimited and I guarantee you if this passes, which I am against, I will be hunting the rifle and muzzy too. 
This idea is not very well thought out and will overcrowd an already crowded rifle elk hunt. 
The early rifle deer hunt will overcrowded due to elk hunters and the late muzzy tags should be used for general season hunters as the units are designed for. 
I'm really disappointed with these proposals.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

silentstalker said:


> Actually archery tags are unlimited and I guarantee you if this passes, which I am against, I will be hunting the rifle and muzzy too.
> This idea is not very well thought out and will overcrowd an already crowded rifle elk hunt.
> The early rifle deer hunt will overcrowded due to elk hunters and the late muzzy tags should be used for general season hunters as the units are designed for.
> I'm really disappointed with these proposals.


After thinking a little more, I'm not sure crowding will get any worse. These multi-season tags are coming out of the pool of 15,000. In past years, there were 15,000 hunters split between rifle and muzzleloader on the any bull/spike units. Now, there's going to be 15,000 hunters split between rifle, muzzleloader, and multi-season.

The good news is, some of those multi-season hunters will tag out on the archery hunt. Let's say 500 of them do. In that case, you have 14,500 hunters split between rifle and muzzleloader seasons. And there you have it, less crowding.

Remember, we're not adding extra tags. In fact, we're taking some away. Whereas, we formally had thousands of archery hunters buying permits from an unlimited quota, we will now have some of them buying from the quota of 15,000. The main consequence will be that the any bull and spike permits sell out faster.

I'm really interested to see how they handle this administratively (whether there will be caps, a draw, etc.).


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Oh, and did anyone notice that they're adding language in the code to allow for ewe bighorn hunts? That got me seriously excited. Do you think it will happen in 2018? Any idea which herd(s) they might implement ewe hunts on? 

I'm thinking Zion is most likely for desert sheep, and maybe Newfoundland for Rocky.

Edit: I also noticed that they're going to make residents pick between ewe Rocky, ewe Desert, or cow moose in the antlerless draw. I kind of like that, and I kind of don't. The good news would be that the people high up in the moose pool probably wouldn't jump ship to compete with me for the ewe tags. I know I would happily bail on my 2 cow moose points if a sheep ewe hunt is offered, though.

I just wish they would apply the same restriction to nonresidents as they do to us.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

silentstalker said:


> Actually archery tags are unlimited and I guarantee you if this passes, which I am against, I will be hunting the rifle and muzzy too.
> This idea is not very well thought out and will overcrowd an already crowded rifle elk hunt.
> The early rifle deer hunt will overcrowded due to elk hunters and the late muzzy tags should be used for general season hunters as the units are designed for.
> I'm really disappointed with these proposals.


You aren't understanding it, archery tags may be Unlimited but these permits won't be. In the elk managment plan the spike/any bull permits have a set number of 15,000. They aren't just going to make these tags Unlimited they will be within that limit of 15,000. Archery tags will still be Unlimited but once the 15,000 tags run out they are gone. You usually hunt archery which is Unlimited, but if you are purchasing oneof these tags you'll just be purchasing 1 of the 15,000 tags that already sale out. The crowding will be the same because there will still only be 15,000 spike or any bull permits sold, just because you can hunt all 3 seasons does not mean there are more permits. The only concern I see is overharvest on any bull units and as I said some type of antler restrictions may be needed to save some bulls on the any bull units.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Copy. I missed that in my speed reading. Thx for explaining that. 

In that case I will be buying a tag out of the 15000 pool that I have never done before. 

I still don't like it, but will use it if it passes.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

If the 3 season idea is implemented, I can guarantee that the Any Bull and spike tags will sell out a lot faster if you can hunt all 3 seasons with them..... I can see a minimal increase (10%) in hunters for the rifle, but archery will see a 20-50% increase and the ML will see a a 300-800% increase in hunters. 

..


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Packout said:


> If the 3 season idea is implemented, I can guarantee that the Any Bull and spike tags will sell out a lot faster if you can hunt all 3 seasons with them..... I can see a minimal increase (10%) in hunters for the rifle, but archery will see a 20-50% increase and the ML will see a a 300-800% increase in hunters.
> 
> ..


That seems reasonable enough. Most of the guys talking on here are archery hunters who would then hunt rifle and muzzleloader if unsuccessful. I have always done rifle in the past, but would then do muzzleloader if unsuccessful (and maybe archery if I were ambitious).


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Packout said:


> If the 3 season idea is implemented, I can guarantee that the Any Bull and spike tags will sell out a lot faster if you can hunt all 3 seasons with them..... I can see a minimal increase (10%) in hunters for the rifle, but archery will see a 20-50% increase and the ML will see a a 300-800% increase in hunters.
> 
> ..


I agree, I just wonder how many people will be willing to buy a $150 spike tag or any bull tag that can be tough hunts regardless the season.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Also, if you have strong opinions for or against these proposals either attend the meeting or email your regional RAC members and the Wildlife Board. Here are links to the emails if you can't attend the meeting places and times in the original link of this thread:

RAC
https://wildlife.utah.gov/rac-members.html

Wildlife board
https://wildlife.utah.gov/board-members.html


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Man, all sorts of good stuff in that packet. Look what I found in the new statewide moose management plan (page 134 of the PDF):

"Research indicates that density dependence and habitat limitations are a concern for
moose in Utah. As such, we propose to be more aggressive with antlerless harvest to
control or maintain populations at desired densities. "

Now I've got to rethink bailing on my cow moose points for sheep (not really ).

and,

"We recommend managing for a 3-year average age of harvested bull between 3.75–
4.25 years old on all units. The previous plan called for managing to a 4.0–6.0 age
objective. In Utah, moose reach their maximum antler growth potential when they
are 5-years old. Managing to this new objective will increase hunting opportunity for
moose in Utah, while maintaining a sufficient numbers of quality bulls in each
population."

Looks like we may see a little more moose hunting opportunity in the future.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Shooting cows seems contrary to helping herds rebound. We have moved moose to Colorado for years successfully. Why not move them in state to help struggling herds rather than shoot them?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Clarq said:


> Man, all sorts of good stuff in that packet. Look what I found in the new statewide moose management plan (page 134 of the PDF):
> 
> "Research indicates that density dependence and habitat limitations are a concern for
> moose in Utah. As such, we propose to be more aggressive with antlerless harvest to
> ...


Don't like the moose anterless harvest at all. In the end killing cows has to end in less opportunity and less population growth. I would rather we try to grow our moose herd than increase opportunities to kill cows.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Clarq said:


> Oh, and did anyone notice that they're adding language in the code to allow for ewe bighorn hunts? That got me seriously excited. Do you think it will happen in 2018? Any idea which herd(s) they might implement ewe hunts on?
> 
> I'm thinking Zion is most likely for desert sheep, and maybe Newfoundland for Rocky.
> 
> ...


Now that is awesome. If this happens I?m all in on desert ewe.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Don't like the moose anterless harvest at all. In the end killing cows has to end in less opportunity and less population growth. I would rather we try to grow our moose herd than increase opportunities to kill cows.


 I'm no wildlife scientist, but I have to think they have their reasons...

The packet seems to suggest that increasing cow harvest is more about keeping populations at appropriate densities than anything.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Clarq said:


> I'm no wildlife scientist, but I have to think they have their reasons...
> 
> The packet seems to suggest that increasing cow harvest is more about keeping populations at appropriate densities than anything.


I tend to agree with silentstalker on this one. I can understand controlling densities, but I'd rather see them moved to other areas where the population isn't being as successful. The overall moose trend here is pointing down, and with not a lot of animals to begin with I'm just not sure more aggressive cow harvest is the best option. I'm no wildlife scientist either, id just like to see more moose left out there having calves than less. Our moose population was once nearly 4,000, we can't get above 2,600-2,800 anymore. There's got to be a reason beyond "densities" or even habitat for why that is because at one point we could stay at far higher densities than we are able to obtain now and that's within the recent past. The issue is, if you aren't growing populations you aren't increasing opportunity in the long run. Even lowering age objectives when the population can't be grown doesn't account for much more opportunity in such a small herd. It would just be nice to see our moose herd grow and get back towards that 3,500-4,000 number which would create sustained opportunity rather than short lived opportunity off cow hunts and age adjustments. If we want more long term opportunity we are going to need more moose not just more harvest of the ones we already have.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

It does not have to be either more aggressive harvest or transplant when it comes to reducing moose densities in certain areas. It can be both. In fact, if you read the new moose plan, it calls for both, not just more aggressive harvest. 

More aggressive harvest in combination with transplants, at least in theory, accomplishes all purposes being discussed.


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## Tall Tines (Apr 16, 2017)

Clarq said:


> Man, all sorts of good stuff in that packet. Look what I found in the new statewide moose management plan (page 134 of the PDF):
> 
> "Research indicates that density dependence and habitat limitations are a concern for
> moose in Utah. As such, we propose to be more aggressive with antlerless harvest to
> ...


Do you have a link to this packet you are finding this info in?


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Tall Tines said:


> Do you have a link to this packet you are finding this info in?


http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2017-11_rac_packet.pdf


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm only a couple years out from my moose tag... and now they want to lower the age objective. /sigh


-DallanC


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Clarq said:


> Longer seasons = higher success rates = fewer permits offered. Always tough to balance quality and opportunity.


If this is true, then explain to me Montana.

Archery- September 2nd through October 15

Rifle- October 21st through November 26

They sell out every year and have around the same amount every year. There is also 90% of the state that is not a LQ draw.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

As a side question for those with dedicated hunter tags for the units being considered for an early rifle season, does that mean you get to hunt all 4 seasons in those units? If so wheres my 4th season(kidding)? But seriously would like the 4th season statewide.


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## guner (Sep 25, 2007)

Saw it on KSL today. 
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46187256&n...on-rifle-buck-hunt-in-2018-to-reduce-crowding


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

JK..


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I also read it on KSL. A few things I have thought about for opportunity:

Statewide archery, again.

Also, allow those with ML tags, maybe even rifle, to participate in the extended archery if they don't tag out.


Am I incorrect in my thinking that the LE ML hunts already happen? They just extending it to ANY unit that has the B : D? Also wish I knew the 10 units they are testing rifle. 

I don't love that rifle, the highest success hunt, has 2 weekends. ML Elk, and ML deer have 1. Not a huge deal, just tired of bending to rifle.

Question on the elk, if you can hunt all 3 can you also do extended? That is a ton of time in the field. I don't know if you will see ALOT more archery hunters, but more archery hunters will probably do ML and Rifle.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Maybe I misread, but does the three seasons for elk apply statewide or is it just the any bull units?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^spike units as well.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

RandomElk16 said:


> I also read it on KSL. A few things I have thought about for opportunity:
> 
> Also, allow those with ML tags, maybe even rifle, to participate in the extended archery if they don't tag out.............................
> 
> ....................I don't love that rifle, the highest success hunt, has 2 weekends. ML Elk, and ML deer have 1. Not a huge deal, just tired of bending to rifle.


These two statements don't match up. I wouldn't be in favor of Rifle and Muzzleloader tag-holders being allowed to hunt the extended archery hunt. The front gets plenty crowded as-is.

You decry the high success of the rifle hunt, but in the same post suggested offering a consolation prize of being able to hunt the extended archery if they aren't successful.

If someone wants to hunt all 3, that opportunity is provided for with the Dedicated draw.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

What is not clear from the information I read in the packet is how many of these tags will be available, and how it will impact the "unlimited" archery tags or the pool of 15,000 spike/any bull tags. 

There just is not enough information available, at least that I saw, to be able to know what this means for sure.

Heck, this could be the state's way of creating another "limited entry" hunt on general season units like they've done with the late muzzy deer tags. Wouldn't put it passed them.

Edit: TOTP suckas!


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> What is not clear from the information I read in the packet is how many of these tags will be available, and how it will impact the "unlimited" archery tags or the pool of 15,000 spike/any bull tags.
> 
> There just is not enough information available, at least that I saw, to be able to know what this means for sure.
> 
> Heck, this could be the state's way of creating another "limited entry" hunt on general season units like they've done with the late muzzy deer tags. Wouldn't put it passed them.


The way I'm understanding this so far is that the number of tags for the any bull or spike only hunts will not change. People will just have the option of purchasing a 3 season any bull or spike only tag for $150. This purchase will be taken from the 15,000 tags the same as an any weapon one season $50 tag. The only difference is your paying more to hunt more.

The archery only tags will remain unlimited.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

3arabians said:


> The way I'm understanding this so far is that the number of tags for the any bull or spike only hunts will not change. People will just have the option of purchasing a 3 season any bull or spike only tag for $150. This purchase will be taken from the 15,000 tags the same as an any weapon one season $50 tag. The only difference is your paying more to hunt more.
> 
> The archery only tags will remain unlimited.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


That's the way I understand it as well. Would be great if they could be 100% clear on any proposed changes...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Without reading through all 7 pages and 63 replies here is my $0.02 worth. 

On the late season ML hunt, lets get it back to a traditional ML hunt in such as no scopes, pellets, or sabots. If you would like to use your inline minus the above, fine. 

I sent a letter to the WB stating the above.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Critter said:


> Without reading through all 7 pages and 63 replies here is my $0.02 worth.
> 
> On the late season ML hunt, lets get it back to a traditional ML hunt in such as no scopes, pellets, or sabots. If you would like to use your inline minus the above, fine.
> 
> I sent a letter to the WB stating the above.


That's a cool idea! I think this would actually be a good alternative.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Critter said:


> Without reading through all 7 pages and 63 replies here is my $0.02 worth.
> 
> On the late season ML hunt, lets get it back to a traditional ML hunt in such as no scopes, pellets, or sabots. If you would like to use your inline minus the above, fine.
> 
> I sent a letter to the WB stating the above.


It won't happen, but I would support it. I would also support a late season archery hunt rather than Muzzleloader hunt. At this point unless they do what you're saying critter this is just a later one shot rifle hunt with the new muzzleloaders. Archery during that time would make for more tags and opportunity, easier to draw tags, and lower success rates. I'm not the biggest fan of how the hunt currently stands, but heck maybe they'll just offer an archery tag a week after the late Muzzleloader soon so I better be careful what I wish for. Then we can have Archery, Muzzleloader, early rifle, late rifle, late Muzzleloader, and late archery........ maybe we should give our general units a bit of a break when I see it listed like that.


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## TimJ (May 17, 2012)

muddydogs said:


> Being able to hunt all three elk seasons is a bad idea, think the rifle season is crowded now just wait until all the archery and muzzy guys start hunting the rifle season then all the archery and rifle guys hunt the muzzy season. I think this is going to destroy elk hunting in Utah. A lot of archery guys were complaining about all the people that were out on archery season this year well figure at least half of them archery hunters will be in the woods for the rifle season as well making an already crowded hunt way worse.
> I hope the rifle and muzzy hunters band together and start hitting the RAC meetings in force to voice there concerns as the only ones benefiting from this will be the archery hunters.


If the cap of elk tags remains unchanged, it is unlikely that the pressure would change in your particular hunting area. If the state decides to increase the amount of elk tags then there may be a problem.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

From what I heard or remember hearing on the WB meeting when the late season ML hunt was proposed it was not going to be a LE hunt but just a general season ML tag that if you want to try for with a lot of other applicants you can put in for.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Critter said:


> From what I heard or remember hearing on the WB meeting when the late season ML hunt was proposed it was not going to be a LE hunt but just a general season ML tag that if you want to try for with a lot of other applicants you can put in for.


No, it is a Limited Entry hunt on a General Season unit, which cuts general season opportunity. They could never do a General Season Late muzz deer hunt because the Lifetime License holders would snatch up the tags. Which makes me wonder how many proposed early season tags there will be and if the lifetime licensees can overwhelm those quotas.....


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

Critter said:


> From what I heard or remember hearing on the WB meeting when the late season ML hunt was proposed it was not going to be a LE hunt but just a general season ML tag that if you want to try for with a lot of other applicants you can put in for.


So LE then?

Lots of Applicants

Few Permits

Special Season

Sounds pretty limited to me. Even if they don't require you to use yourLE points for the draw.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Packout said:


> No, it is a Limited Entry hunt on a General Season unit, which cuts general season opportunity. They could never do a General Season Late muzz deer hunt because the Lifetime License holders would snatch up the tags. Which makes me wonder how many proposed early season tags there will be and if the lifetime licensees can overwhelm those quotas.....


For the southern units, maybe? But they don't interest me all that much to be honest. It's a 5 day season, and at least up north, on units with tons of private property. If I had access to private land, then that would change my mind.

TOTP!


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## amp713 (Oct 27, 2017)

Instead of giving out a 3 season elk hunt why not extend the length of the existing hunts a little, archery especially, allow the deer hunters to start same as usual but push elk back 10 days to start and go 10 days longer. Let archers hunt during the youth elk (and the rut) while wearing blaze orange. 

At the very least require time like the dedicated hunter program for deer and limit the number of tags. Not just an all around free for all. I've seen a large dwindling of elk on public lands in the last 10 years and we need to find a way to stop the decline.

As for the muzzleloader deer season, make it a primitive only hunt. No scopes, no inlines. I feel putting a limitation like that on the hunt would make it a very fun hunt worth the LE standing while opening up the extra hunt.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Kwalk3 said:


> These two statements don't match up. I wouldn't be in favor of Rifle and Muzzleloader tag-holders being allowed to hunt the extended archery hunt. The front gets plenty crowded as-is.
> 
> You decry the high success of the rifle hunt, but in the same post suggested offering a consolation prize of being able to hunt the extended archery if they aren't successful.
> 
> If someone wants to hunt all 3, that opportunity is provided for with the Dedicated draw.


I added Rifle because again, that is the main group we accommodate.

Regardless, I talked about more ways for opportunity. The front is crowded with trophy hunters, but the amount of deer they want harvested on it has nothing to do with that. We have resorted to in-city hunts to get these animals.

My post said: additional opportunities.

I represented that. I did in fact state two additional opportunities so don't come at me about how I "decry" their success. Yes, I think it is weird they have 2 weekends and a longer hunt than a primitive weapon, and are now getting ANOTHER season. Rifle gets an additional hunt, its all good. Muzzleloader does and it's LE. I don't care about the timeline lol. I said their success rates coupled with 2 weekends, and now another hunt that will run during other hunts.

Again, I don't use a rifle. I could care less if they did away with them. I simply proposed things that would *provide opportunity.* I personally would rather it just include Muzzleloader. If you disagree, great. It isn't something to try and spark an argument about.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

You know what is interesting reading these pages.. A few have mentioned the Muzzleloaders and how on that LE hunt they should be "primitive" (no scope, sabots, no inline...). It is just near the beginning of the rut, but not in the peak.

When you look at a similar hunt.. It is with a rifle. LE Elk is near/at the peak of the rut. Why don't they have a bunch of weird restrictions?

If you want to use your LE points on a general season deer hunt, I have no problem that it follows the same regs as the rest of the muzzleloader hunts. Makes no sense to have it be different. Maybe the extended archery should be recurve only? I know some of you would love that :grin:


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## amp713 (Oct 27, 2017)

RandomElk16 said:


> You know what is interesting reading these pages.. A few have mentioned the Muzzleloaders and how on that LE hunt they should be "primitive" (no scope, sabots, no inline...). It is just near the beginning of the rut, but not in the peak.
> 
> When you look at a similar hunt.. It is with a rifle. LE Elk is near/at the peak of the rut. Why don't they have a bunch of weird restrictions?
> 
> If you want to use your LE points on a general season deer hunt, I have no problem that it follows the same regs as the rest of the muzzleloader hunts. Makes no sense to have it be different. Maybe the extended archery should be recurve only? I know some of you would love that :grin:


Once inlines came out it was just like another rifle season to me, I hunted muzzy at the time and suddenly we could accurately triple our effective range. And a lot of people jumped over from rifle and just flung lead. I'd go back to muzzy if it became a traditional hunt...


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

RandomElk16 said:


> I added Rifle because again, that is the main group we accommodate.
> 
> Regardless, I talked about more ways for opportunity. The front is crowded with trophy hunters, but the amount of deer they want harvested on it has nothing to do with that. We have resorted to in-city hunts to get these animals.
> 
> ...


Wasn't really trying to be argumentative. Just commenting on the suggestions and where I disagree. It is possible to disagree without being totally antagonistic. Sorry if that's how I came across. Was just trying to make sense of the two seemingly conflicting suggestions.

We probably agree on most things. Not sure any of your suggestions for more opportunity are likely to happen, as much as I'd like to see statewide archery again.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

amp713 said:


> Once inlines came out it was just like another rifle season to me, I hunted muzzy at the time and suddenly we could accurately triple our effective range. And a lot of people jumped over from rifle and just flung lead. I'd go back to muzzy if it became a traditional hunt...


Well, then you weren't paying attention at the time. I was shooting sabots out of my Hawkin from day one. In fact I've never hunted with a roundball nor conical. Sabots and at the time, I think it was 185gr GoldDots.

Green Mountain then came out with their uber hawkin barrels so I immediately rebarreled the Hawkin to a 1/28" fast twist barrel and its every bit as accurate, and has identical range to my Remington ML. Cloverleaf groups at 100 yards was sweet from a hawkin.

That is why I'm always opposed to gun based restrictions, the Hawkin styles are every bit as good and accurate as inlines. Restrictions should be based on the components and optics: open sights or 1x scopes, full bore lead projectiles, loose black powder or pyrodex substitutes only, breech exposed to the elements.

-DallanC


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## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

I would support the idea of the 3 season elk hunt with caveats. 
- Don't allow them to hunt the extended archery.
- Make sure the tags are limited in number and come from the pool of rifle/muzzy tags already in place. 

The pressure that will increase will be on the muzzy elk hunt. I'd bet that it would quadruple, if not more, in number of hunters chasing elk during the muzzy hunt. 

There are a few changes I wish our state would make for elk.. 
Fist, move the archery to the month of September, like every other state that has elk. Stop putting opening day in the heat of August.

Second, stop allowing spikes to be hunted on general any bull units. Make it a branch antlered bull hunt. Let the spikes at least make it to a raghorn their next year. 

Another is that they should shrink the Wasatch unit and open some of it to general any bull. Let's expand the opportunity with the 80K herd we have, and let's spread the hunters out a bit more. Perhaps a way to do this would be to do a new LE area for elk in whichever area would be opened to the general hunt over 4 or 5 years. Start with a lower number of tags, but increase it each year until it's hunted like a general unit. 

Why don't we start calling all "general" deer units what they really are, General Limited Entry (GLE). Nothing is a general unit anymore for deer. Alas, it's pointless to even voice an opinion to the DNR (and perhaps here, too)--especially as an archer--as the only thing that matters is the money. $150 for a general elk tag is quite expensive to me, but hunting is more and more becoming a rich man's game.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

tuffluckdriller said:


> Why don't we start calling all "general" deer units what they really are, General Limited Entry (GLE). Nothing is a general unit anymore for deer. Alas, it's pointless to even voice an opinion to the DNR (and perhaps here, too)--especially as an archer--as the only thing that matters is the money. $150 for a general elk tag is quite expensive to me, but hunting is more and more becoming a rich man's game.


So what are you going to do with the 4800'ish Lifetime deer license holders? They are guaranteed a deer tag every year.

There is a huge difference in General units vs Limited Entry units, and I'm not even talking management objectives. They use completely different points systems and draw mechanics involved in issuance of permits.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> So what are you going to do with the 4800'ish Lifetime deer license holders?
> 
> -DallanC


We are down to 3900 LL holders that are putting in for permits with a lot of them being dedicated hunters also.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm all over being able to hunt all 3 elk hunts. 
That would be a blast. They don't hang out on my place, but they do cross thru.........:mrgreen:


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

DallanC said:


> So what are you going to do with the 4800'ish Lifetime deer license holders? They are guaranteed a deer tag every year.
> 
> There is a huge difference in General units vs Limited Entry units, and I'm not even talking management objectives. They use completely different points systems and draw mechanics involved in issuance of permits.
> 
> -DallanC


Umm, give them a refund and an apology letter letting them know that times have changed.

I dunno it is a good question

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

been thinking about the 3 elk seasons a lot. Not opposed to more opportunity for hunters if your willing to pay. 

Here is my thought though. 

for years Elk in certain areas of the State moved off public onto private land (due to pressure). So the state creates Private permits to push them off private back onto public land charging $$$. Then changes it back after the success. 

Now we are going to put more hunter for all three seasons on to the public land? A for more money and how is this not going to be the exact same result or even worse like running the elk right out of the state (northslope into wyoming, south slope into the Indian Res.)

Anyone have thoughts on this?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

There are still way too many questions without answers to know the impact, in my opinion. We don't even know how many of these 3-season permits will be available. Unless I missed that in the packet? (entirely possible as I only skimmed it quickly and didn't give it a thorough read) 

I like the concept of this, even if I probably won't really plan to use it. There is zero chance I'm going out and buying a bow to take advantage of this, just as an example. But as with most things, the devil is in the details. Is this going to be a thing where you can decide which type of permit you receive and all 15,000 will be the option of the hunter? Say, you only want one season, you pay $50. But if you want all 3, you simply pay $150? That has the potential to be a bit of a nightmare. Are their going to be 1,000 of these available? Probably not going to notice one speck of difference if that were the case. 

The impacts are really unknown until we have more details.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

The more ambiguous a proposal is, the more you can change it into something else down the road. I agree there aren't enough details to take this further.

I am still more concerned with adding Limited Entry ML hunts to the General Season units, especially the change whereby they want to do it on units just "at objective". Note that, "at objective". So they are not wanting to allow population increases on general units, they want to offer new, extremely high success hunts on units merely "at objective".

The camel has way more than his nose under the tent at this point.

Its really simple, General Season units were created as maximum opportunity hunts, while people waited on drawing their limited entry "quality" tag. GE tags should be increased at every opportunity when the herd populations allow it.

For every late season LE ML tag offered, that's around 3 less General season hunters we could have. If you offered 10 ML tags per unit, that's hundreds and hundreds of general season tags we could have had.

Just wait till they force it through and later deem it a "success" and want to increase the number of tags to even greater amounts. We'll soon have people waiting 5 years to draw a Wasatch general deer tag.

Anywho, I've emailed all the RAC and Wildlife board members my thoughts, gotten several very interesting feedbacks from some members. A few of which clearly never understood the ramifications of this and were very interested in seeing the proposal described in this way.

A couple want the permits, details be damned. They see it as a way to reduce LE point creep (which if you take that to its logical conclusion, means the end of Gen tags statewide).


-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Well put, Dallan!


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

Anyone care to post the email they sent to the board and Rac's?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I can post mine when I get home, I don't have access to it at work.


-DallanC


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I would jump at the chance of a dedicated hunter program for elk but I am hesitant to open up a general multi-season tag whose only requirement is more money. I don't see how the recommendation helps given some of our biggest issues are quality winter habitat and a high hunter pressure to wildlife population. 

I think any such recommendation should be delayed until 2019 and go through a long, detailed analysis and revision with a ton of public input and committee review.

I could be convinced otherwise by my skepticism is on high alert.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I like the La Sal mountain new goat hunt.
And the new Pilot mountain big horn hunt.

I DON'T like,the lowering of harvest age objectives on moose.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I DON'T like,the lowering of harvest age objectives on moose.


+100


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> I like the La Sal mountain new goat hunt.
> And the new Pilot mountain big horn hunt.
> 
> I DON'T like,the lowering of harvest age objectives on moose.


The more I think about these proposals the less I like some of them and the more I want to see the details. I would love to hunt all 3 elk seasons, but it sounds like the majority of people want to as well. The wildlife board meeting will be interesting and I encourage anyone with questions or concerns to attend a meeting or send an email so the questions and concerns here are addressed because I'd like to know more as well. The late season Muzzleloader was supposed to be for units over objective a couple years ago when it started, now we've moved to any unit that is at its buck:doe ratio. How much farther are we going to go with this thing? It seems to be moving towards too many tags. As for the 3 season elk, I love the idea of doing it, but without antler restrictions or something on any bull units I worry about the negative impacts it may have especially increased harvest on areas that already have very few bulls in the first place. At the very least put an antler restriction of 4 point or better on rifle and muzzy hunts on any bull units, or I see an overharvest if bulls being a possible problem. I think spike units will be okay. As for the late muzzy hunt, units should be over objective for at least 3 years before issuing these tags. You should have to prove GS hunts aren't bringing down the objective before late LE tags are handed out. If you choose deer as your LE species and never draw you know it's a possibility and you have to deal with that risk. I don't know that the LE point creep being a good argument for releasing extra late tags on GS units.

I am still all for the early rifle hunt and would like to see it on every unit. As Dallas C said, release more GS permits and then hold 2 rifle hunts to address some crowding issues, but these late LE tags should only be released on units when they are chronically over objective on buck:doe ratios. Meeting buck to doe ratios is what we should be aiming for, not knocking them back down once we've met them.

As I've thought more about these proposals my views have adjusted a little especially seeing how many people want to hunt all 3 elk seasons. Steven Rinella has mentioned a quote by Leupold several times in his podcast about how we are constantly improving the pump but we aren't improving the well. I feel these are all examples of this especially the moose plans. We want to be more aggressive on anterless harvest and lower age objectives. Last time I checked our moose population was declining, this is a perfect example of improving the pump but not the well. Let's not run out the well or the pump will burn up at some point too. Time to slow down on some tags, especially anterless elk in this state, and maybe give our GS units a break every now and then.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

I like the units they picked for the early deer hunts. Have the early deer hunts on units other than mine and by the time I go more "In theory" will be pushed to my unit.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> As for the 3 season elk, I love the idea of doing it, but without antler restrictions or something on any bull units I worry about the negative impacts it may have especially increased harvest on areas that already have very few bulls in the first place. At the very least put an antler restriction of 4 point or better on rifle and muzzy hunts on any bull units, or I see an overharvest if bulls being a possible problem.
> 
> I think spike units will be okay.


If they issue the same amount of tags that they do now, would the increase in success rates be THAT drastic? We like to think the opportunity means a large increase, but how many people actually buy these tags, and how many elk does that actually equal? For every 1 guy that hunts the whole season, how many hunt a few days, and how many more take 1 or 2 day trips?

If it is a drastic increase in success, why would spike units be ok? These are LE units. So if you see that same increase on those, our LE quality is impacted. So if Any Bull isn't "okay", then why is Spike?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

If in fact, they are going to implement split season GS deer hunts due to overcrowding issues,
Why not use this on the Wasatch West? 

Everyone I know that hunts there complains abound to many people.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Nothing is over crowded we use to give out 200,000 tags. I wish they wouldn't pimp out the animals. The Elk recommendation is just that.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

If we can't see the biological purpose to the changes why would we want to change it.
I know it is a balancing act. I just see less opportunity all around from the enlisted changes.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Brookie,
Here's the thing,.
Back in the 200k permit days , about half of those permits were sold in wife's and grandparents names.
They NEVER left camp.

So in my view, that has never been a valid argument.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> Brookie,
> Here's the thing,.
> Back in the 200k permit days , about half of those permits were sold in wife's and grandparents names.
> They NEVER left camp.


But they always came through the check stations on opening weekend with a buck deer in the back of the truck with their tag on it.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> But they always came through the check stations on opening weekend with a buck deer in the back of the truck with their tag on it.


Hey back in the day my wife was a hellva hunter. She just got tired of shooting the bucks on opening weekend so I could stay on the mountain.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

I like the proposal for elk but $150 to be able to hunt all three seasons is pretty steep to me. I understand them wanting to be more money, but $80 or so sounds like a much more reasonable amount.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

middlefork said:


> Hey back in the day my wife was a hellva hunter. She just got tired of shooting the bucks on opening weekend so I could stay on the mountain.


They did a survey back in the day of the checking stations and found that women and 70+ old folks were the best shots and hunters in the state.

They always got their deer in the first two days of the hunts.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> If they issue the same amount of tags that they do now, would the increase in success rates be THAT drastic? We like to think the opportunity means a large increase, but how many people actually buy these tags, and how many elk does that actually equal? For every 1 guy that hunts the whole season, how many hunt a few days, and how many more take 1 or 2 day trips?
> 
> If it is a drastic increase in success, why would spike units be ok? These are LE units. So if you see that same increase on those, our LE quality is impacted. So if Any Bull isn't "okay", then why is Spike?


Mainly because it seems like a lot of people on the forums and who I have talked to are very interested in the opportunity. I have hunted archery every year for a long time now for GS elk and usually don't end up shooting one. I know I would be much more successful during the spike muzzy hunt and have quite a bit of confidence I could kill a spike nearly every year with a Muzzleloader tag. I'm just saying that there are hunters really interested in hunting that know where the elk are on these units, and those that are very into it will likely be the ones willing to buy these tags. You can only pump so much water out of a well before it runs dry. There are just far less elk on any bull units, and it seems even if success rates rises moderately it may do some damage. Spike units have a lot more elk, and plenty of big bulls still make it to adulthood, but any bull units just to me seem far more likely to be affected negatively if success rates go up too much. As I said if there was a point restriction implemented for any bull units at least for rifle and muzzleloader I'd be more prone to support it.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

Copy paste:

We'd closely monitor the number of elk taken," Jones says. "If that number went beyond the limit set in the state's elk management plan, we'd relook at whether the opportunity should be offered again in 2019."

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## mr.seven (Sep 18, 2007)

went up opening morning rifle deer 15 cars were i parked saw two rifle hunters on the hill the rest were bow hunters and they were not happy that we were taking 9 days out of there 3 months still it wasnt that crowded and goofy i dont know what kind of people you hunt with but all the wifes and grandparents were i hunted shot there own animals


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

mr.seven said:


> went up opening morning rifle deer 15 cars were i parked saw two rifle hunters on the hill the rest were bow hunters and they were not happy that we were taking 9 days out of there 3 months still it wasnt that crowded and goofy i dont know what kind of people you hunt with but all the wifes and grandparents were i hunted shot there own animals


Why were they unhappy? I bowhunt and the only thing that changes is that i put an orange vest and hat on during the rifle hunt. If someone said something to you about it I'd say that's ridiculous. Sometimes I think there's perceived animosity that probably doesn't really exist to the extent we make it out to.

Hell, I even took my bow out along with my buddy that had a rifle tag on the opener. Ended up just being an extra weight to carry out with the meat from his buck, but I didn't feel bad about it. I was stoked to be along for the ride and be a part of harvesting a nice buck.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

For anyone wanting to email their thoughts to the board members, here's a list of the emails ready to copy / paste:



> Central
> [email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected];[email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected] ; [email protected];
> 
> Northern
> ...








-DallanC


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I don't think more than a couple thousand at most would buy the multi-season elk tag for $150.00. I know I probably wouldn't.
If a few hundred more any bull elk get killed each season because of the multi-season tags, the DWR will be just fine with that. In general, they don't want very many elk in most of the any bull units any way.
I don't think any extra overcrowding will be noticed in most areas.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I like the idea of an early season rifle deer hunt. As long as the 1st rifle hunt started the Wed. after the rifle elk opener and then ran 5 days. Then the 2nd season starts the same time as usual. 
A 30/70 split would be good or maybe 40/60.


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## mr.seven (Sep 18, 2007)

i have had more negitive comments from bowhunters in my area which is also extended season than any other group. in my day of hunting bowhunters were the most courtious group but back then they were also rifle and blackpowder now days they think there more entitled but not all have that attitude i did meet hunters like you that are a pleasure to hunt around but i dont label you guys bowhunters you are hunters to me good for the whole sport


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I hunted when there were 200,000 hunters goofy, on another note why would anyone waiting for limited entry elk tag want more spikes harvested. Less spikes that make it though then less big bulls down the road, and then eventually less tags and a longer wait. It does makes sense if your limited entry is something else though. I could be wrong on my thinking though and I'm sure I'll get told.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I am a bowhunter, I haven't had a rifle tag since I was a kid... I don't have a "honey hole" like some folks. I find it better to just wait until rifle deer ends and the rut kicks in to start hunting again.

I know this isn't always the case. I just feel like you would be pretty ignorant to not expect rifle hunters during the rifle hunt.... AND..... I don't want to get shot 

As for the Rifle hunt... The only way I am on board is if BOTH hunts are shorter. If the regular hunt is the same length, that is bogus.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> As for the Rifle hunt... The only way I am on board is if BOTH hunts are shorter. If the regular hunt is the same length, that is bogus.


Why is it bogus?
The 2nd season hunters would be hunting "left over" bucks in some cases and it would create more opportunity to hunt. Not that many more deer get killed during a 9 day hunt compared to a 5 day.


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## RG the OG (Oct 31, 2016)

I think the rifle and archery elk will be fine with the change, but the muzzleloader will suffer a dramatic increase of rifle hunters picking up the ol black power gun.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

ridgetop said:


> Why is it bogus?
> The 2nd season hunters would be hunting "left over" bucks in some cases and it would create more opportunity to hunt. Not that many more deer get killed during a 9 day hunt compared to a 5 day.


If not many more deer are killed, why be opposed to shortening it? 

I don't like there being 14+ days, and 3 weekends of rifle deer hunting in one area. That is an opinion, I feel like I can have it. All we are doing is taking one crowd, and throwing it into the already large rifle elk crowd... Doesn't exactly fix crowding. "Left overs" is a very over generalized statement for this scenario. I also believe they increase tags because of this


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

As a few others have stated, I also got to hunt when there were 280,000 deer hunters. Some of my best memories were of that time, primarily because it was the big family get together.

People that complain of over crowding, especially when in my own experience I'm seeing noticeably fewer hunters every year, seems sortof whiney IMO. 

If you are the guy that drives out Timpanooke and complains about all the other hunters, well... you could only give out 10 tags statewide and 5 of those guys will still all be there opening morning, LOL!

My hope and dream is that by some unknown miracle, our herds increase back to the point when we can have 280,000 deer tags again. 96,000 or whatever we are at currently, is a third less crowding than we used to have. Its really great right now.


-DallanC


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

I'm in favor of the early rifle hunt. The message I gave to my RAC rep was that they should look into a way to prioritize first-time deer hunters for tags for that hunt. This was my first year deer hunting.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

maverick9465 said:


> I'm in favor of the early rifle hunt. The message I gave to my RAC rep was that they should look into a way to prioritize first-time deer hunters for tags for that hunt. This was my first year deer hunting.


I'm sure they will find a way to prioritize it for the people with the most money. How many permits will the SFW get to auction off? Haha.

People always want these changes, rarely does it ever work in a positive favor for the common man.

-DallanC


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Brookie,
> Here's the thing,.
> Back in the 200k permit days , about half of those permits were sold in wife's and grandparents names.
> They NEVER left camp.
> So in my view, that has never been a valid argument.


Well, lets look at that statement and use some round numbers-- If we had 210,000 tags sold and 1/3 we bought for mom, that still leaves 140,000 hunters. Today we have less than 60,000 rifle hunters. 80,000 LESS hunters today if we assume that 1/3 of tags did not have a hunter afield. If Goofy is right we would still have 40,000+ less rifle hunters today than in the 200,000+ permit days.

..


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

I would prefer that we adopted methods like other states. Have a longer archery season and one gun season. Lump the muzzy and rifle tags together in one pool but maybe the 1st week or so is muzzleloader only and then you could use any firearm for the following 2 weeks. That would mean more muzzy and rifle hunters at the same time but you could extend the season to 3 weeks. Also, the deer wouldn't get hunted anymore than they are right now. I would also allow cross bows on the archery hunt. Cross bows are not anymore effective or accurate than compound bows, they are just easier to shoot. I would imagine some gun hunters would switch to archery if they could use a cross bow and have the longer hunt, which would cut down on the over crowding. I also think more youth would archery hunt if they could use a cross bow. I'm sure most people on here won't agree with me, but that's what I would like to see happen.


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

JC HUNTER said:


> I would prefer that we adopted methods like other states. Have a longer archery season and one gun season. Lump the muzzy and rifle tags together in one pool but maybe the 1st week or so is muzzleloader only and then you could use any firearm for the following 2 weeks. That would mean more muzzy and rifle hunters at the same time but you could extend the season to 3 weeks. Also, the deer wouldn't get hunted anymore than they are right now. I would also allow cross bows on the archery hunt. Cross bows are not anymore effective or accurate than compound bows, they are just easier to shoot. I would imagine some gun hunters would switch to archery if they could use a cross bow and have the longer hunt, which would cut down on the over crowding. I also think more youth would archery hunt if they could use a cross bow. I'm sure most people on here won't agree with me, but that's what I would like to see happen.


Umm, I'm an archer, and we certainly don't need more time. With the extended hunt opportunities I can hunt deer from Mid August til the end of November, and elk from Mid August to Mid December! Sure, you can't hunt the whole state for that time period, but I think that extending the bowhunt overall is entirely unnecessary.

There is a ton of opportunity and time for bowhunters in Utah. I tend to agree with you on crossbows. I think the impact would be negligible. However, I wouldn't want more crowding on the Archery hunt, but that's just me being selfish.

Also, I couldn't get behind lumping muzzy and rifle together and making the season 3 weeks. Seems foolish to me. One of the few benefits of having to choose your weapon is that it spreads out the hunters over different seasons.


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

Kwalk3 said:


> Umm, I'm an archer, and we certainly don't need more time. With the extended hunt opportunities I can hunt deer from Mid August til the end of November, and elk from Mid August to Mid December! Sure, you can't hunt the whole state for that time period, but I think that extending the bowhunt overall is entirely unnecessary.
> 
> There is a ton of opportunity and time for bowhunters in Utah. I tend to agree with you on crossbows. I think the impact would be negligible. However, I wouldn't want more crowding on the Archery hunt, but that's just me being selfish.
> 
> Also, I couldn't get behind lumping muzzy and rifle together and making the season 3 weeks. Seems foolish to me. One of the few benefits of having to choose your weapon is that it spreads out the hunters over different seasons.


The reason behind extending the archery season would be to add more tags to accommodate gun hunters switching to archery, but not making the archery hunt overcrowded. The longer hunt would also entice more hunters to switch. Sorry, I forgot to mention that in my earlier post.

A lot of my opinion is based on hunting whitetails in Ohio. I understand it's comparing apples to oranges. But 90% of the hunters there are archery hunters and they hunt for 5 months out of the year. I do NOT think we should have a 5 month hunt, but I think the more people that switched to archery, the more opportunities we could create. But most people are pretty set in their ways so they most likely wouldn't make the switch.


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## Muley_73 (Aug 25, 2016)

DallanC said:


> I'm sure they will find a way to prioritize it for the people with the most money. How many permits will the SFW get to auction off? Haha.
> 
> People always want these changes, rarely does it ever work in a positive favor for the common man.
> 
> -DallanC


I would say the common man generally doesn't even involve themselves in the matters of wildlife management and yet the common man in all truth is who the DWR favors. Many many options to increase opportunity and quality and yet the DWR chooses avoid them. Usually in the name of the common man.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley_73 said:


> I would say the common man generally doesn't EVEN involve themselves in the matters of wildlife management and YET the common man in all truth is who the DWR favors. Many many options to increase opportunity and quality and yet the DWR chooses avoid them. Usually in the name of the common man.


Your first sentence tells me all I need to know about your viewpoint of who you think should be running the show, but, thankfully, the DWR is now beginning to think otherwise. They know who pays the bills.

And your second sentence is telling as well. Even in these upcoming meetings, the DWR is proposing many options that benefit quality as well as some that benefit both opportunity and quality. Consider: (not in any order)

1) Lowering the draw weight on bows to 30lbs and removing the minimum weight of arrows to accommodate younger/smaller hunters.
2) Adjusting the crossbow requirements to maintain safety and low effectiveness to encourage more hunters to use weapons that have lower success rates than rifles.
3) Adding new LE ewe hunts.
4) Adding new LE cactus buck hunts on the Paunasugunt.
5) Bringing back the Pilot Mountain Bighorn Sheep hunt.
6) Establishing a new DBH herd (and hunts) on the Mineral Mountains.
7) New late season LE deer muzzy hunts on more units statewide. (I'm opposed to this one.)
8- Archery hunts for OIL species.
9) New LaSal Mtn OIL goat hunt
10) Combining 2 RMBH units to eliminate the confusion of alternate year closings/openings.
11) Boundary change on the Jack Creek RMBH unit to allow easier access.
12) Plans to transplant moose to augment current units and to establish a new herd in Beaver.
13) Plans to transplant pronghorn to augment current units and to re-establish herds in historically occupied habitat.
14) Managing pronghorn to a 2.0-3.0 age objective for maximum trophy quality per their biology/horn growth.

I may have missed some, but it seems to me that the DWR continues to look out for "quality" hunting and hunters, but not so much now at the expense of the common hunter. There are still some concerns on both sides, but I, for one, like the way this is now headed.

Edited: I didn't include the multi-season elk hunts because, without the numbers, I don't know who or how many they would benefit or hurt.,


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I don't see how the over crowding issue is fixed with an early rifle deer hunt during the elk hunt, some of the proposed areas are overcrowded because of elk hunting during the proposed dates. Maybe we need to switch the deer hunt before the elk hunt. Then you could get 2 deer hunts in. Each 7 days and then elk hunt to the end of Oct.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Brookie said:


> I don't see how the over crowding issue is fixed with an early rifle deer hunt during the elk hunt, some of the proposed areas are overcrowded because of elk hunting during the proposed dates. Maybe we need to switch the deer hunt before the elk hunt. Then you could get 2 deer hunts in. Each 7 days and then elk hunt to the end of Oct.


That's why I proposed to have it open on the Wed. after the elk opener. I'm guessing at least 80% of the elk hunter are through hunting by the first Monday.


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