# Rent A Dog....Hmmmm....



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Check out this ad.
You can rent this guys dog for $40 a day, for one day, one week or one month. Of course the owner requires that he be the handler, and you pay all of his expenses (food, lodging, gas, etc.) What a deal!:shock: http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=27006318&cat=225&lpid=0&search=&ad_cid=7

Anyway it got me thinking about how one could start guiding and using their dog as the scapegoat for having to be licensed, insured and all the other stuff guides are required to do.
So, you rent your dog for X amount of $$ a day, you provide the boat and decoys too. Of course the fee is just a dog handling fee not a guiding fee. There you go, everyone with a dog can now be a guide and charge $$$. What do you think?:mrgreen: Yes I am being facetious, but you could probably get away with it........


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

He'll of an idea. I got two dogs that $80 a day. It's about time those dogs earned their own keep. Is there a way to add a handler fee as well. And a boat fee and a decoy fee. Now we are getting someware.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

I've never been much of a fan of private enterprise making money by harvesting publicly owned fish and game without meaningful and significant compensation. I imagine that any law concerning guiding (or any law about anything) will always have guys looking to get around the letter of the law. This could be just the ticket!
R


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

rjefre said:


> I've never been much of a fan of private enterprise making money by harvesting publicly owned fish and game without meaningful and significant compensation. I imagine that any law concerning guiding (or any law about anything) will always have guys looking to get around the letter of the law. This could be just the ticket!
> R


R, I am not a fan either.
I have introduced many newbies to waterfowl hunting over the years. (young and old) and the thought of charging a fee to do it has never crossed my mind. Gas money helps though!


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## manzquad (Feb 10, 2010)

Here's an awkward conversation.... I shot a big bull canvas back but only managed to wound it when I sent YOUR dog the duck dove. YOUR dog came too close to the duck to finish it off. YOUR dog then continued to search for it and finally hit dry land and kept running. I sure hope YOU find YOUR soon.... Ya, I don't think I would want to 'rent' my dog out. It doesn't sound like the owner/handler plans on going with you.


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## manzquad (Feb 10, 2010)

^^^ my bad, I read the article, he will handle the dog. Sounds like a great way for other people to pay for him to hunt.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Hoopermat said:


> He'll of an idea. I got two dogs that $80 a day. It's about time those dogs earned their own keep. Is there a way to add a handler fee as well. And a boat fee and a decoy fee. Now we are getting someware.


Don't forget the equipment/fuel surcharge and one time set up fee, also the 10% consumables charge for toilet paper and 5% user fee. Then you need to add in the boat/decoy cleaning fee on top of the handler, decoy and boat rental fee. Now we're talking!:shock: >>O


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

I actually pay guys more than this to guide using their dogs. If I was a crook I could use this guy and make money over the weekend from his dog. I don't see a problem with him renting out his dog. A lot of guys would love to hunt but do not have a dog and getting one is not possible right now. He says his dog is a master hunter. If this is true he has a ton of time and money into him....besides its a chessie, hunting with class ain't cheap!!!:mrgreen:


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Fowlmouth said:


> Don't forget the equipment/fuel surcharge and one time set up fee, also the 10% consumables charge for toilet paper and 5% user fee. Then you need to add in the boat/decoy cleaning fee on top of the handler, decoy and boat rental fee. Now we're talking!:shock: >>O


Plus duck hunting is premium time before 8 am gets charged a overtime rates. I wonder if we could get a per duck retrieved charge. 40 a day plus 5 a duck


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Hoopermat said:


> Plus duck hunting is premium time before 8 am gets charged a overtime rates. I wonder if we could get a per duck retrieved charge. 40 a day plus 5 a duck


$10 per goose because they are bigger and dogs have to work harder.
We're getting it figured out now.:mrgreen:


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

25 for a coot. Just because your wasting the dogs time.


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

He must have a pretty cush job if he can hunt for a month, I wish I could do that. I guess the question is what defines a guide?


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I wonder how this 'rent a mutt' concept meshes with Utah's new guide laws?? Utah law prohibits charging a hunter more than $100 in cash or compensation per season unless you are a licensed guide and meet all the insurance and permit requirements. Idaho's guide laws are similar. 

I dunno, I'm no attorney, but the whole 'rent a mutt' concept may well run afoul of the law, particularly if the dog owner is present.


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## birdboy (Sep 11, 2007)

I saw this on KSL the other day and chuckled to myself about it. I love watching my dogs work in fact that is half the rush of it all. But I think I would pass up this golden opportunity.... Buyer beware


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

Is he really guiding though? Or is the dog just a tool. I mean a company can rent you an ATV for your hunt and its tool takes you to the hunt.....packs your animal ect.... He is not choosing where you hunt, providing decoys and calling. His work doesn't even start until your hunt/shooting is finished. I don't care either way....I am just talking about it from a different perspective.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Kevin D said:


> Idaho's guide laws are similar.


I didn't think Idaho allowed waterfowl guiding........


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## K Lark (Sep 13, 2013)

hoopoor mat, coots is not waste of time; maybe four you;


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

pelican said:


> Is he really guiding though? Or is the dog just a tool. I mean a company can rent you an ATV for your hunt and its tool takes you to the hunt.....packs your animal ect.... He is not choosing where you hunt, providing decoys and calling. His work doesn't even start until your hunt/shooting is finished. I don't care either way....I am just talking about it from a different perspective.


Here is what the Utah statute on guiding says:

(2) "Compensation" means anything of economic value in excess of $100 that is
paid, loaned, granted, given, donated, or transferred to a hunting guide or
outfitter for or in consideration of personal services, materials, or​
property.

The key words here is accepting compensation for "materials, or property." As you mentioned, companies rent ATV's and other equipment for hunters, but if the owner accompanies the hunters in the field, this is where the renter may be running afoul of the law. If questioned, I suspect the guy may be explaining his business model to an investigating officer and once again to a judge.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> I didn't think Idaho allowed waterfowl guiding........


You may be right, I am more familiar with Idaho's big game guiding laws.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

The bottom line is this. Utah should not allow guides or guiding on public lands. Guides should be restricted to private/leased lands. Or not permitted to guide at all for waterfowl in Utah. Look at all the waterfowl guide ads that are now popping up on KSL. Do you think any of these guys are licenses and insured? I highly doubt it. Time to start hitting the RAC meetings and complain about guides/guiding and changes that are needed I guess.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Fowlmouth said:


> The bottom line is this. Utah should not allow guides or guiding on public lands. Guides should be restricted to private/leased lands. Or not permitted to guide at all for waterfowl in Utah. Look at all the waterfowl guide ads that are now popping up on KSL. Do you think any of these guys are licenses and insured? I highly doubt it. Time to start hitting the RAC meetings and complain about guides/guiding and changes that are needed I guess.


Guides should not be able to operate on pubic lands for any game animal.


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

I guess I don't understand why y'all are against guides? If a guy flys in on a business trip and wants to duck hunt for a few days, how would you suggest he goes about it if no guides are available? How about a lion or bear hunt.....you ever been around hounds.....I guarantee you are not raising a pack of them in you little suburban 1/8 acre yards.....so what's a guy to do to get these animals? How about your 75yr old pops, he finally drew that paunsagant deer or a moose permit after 20yrs, you've got a busy schedule and can't help scout but he has the resources to afford a guide to help on this once in a lifetime hunt...or do you expect that old man to do all the scouting himself, alone? Or do you say give the tag back? . I just don't see an issue guiding on public land and how it hurts anyone


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Sorry Pelican, I'm not a guide fan. 
Guiding hurts us all and continues to contribute to the ever growing commercialization of sports. Guides are becoming a dime a dozen who continue to try to push out outdoorsmen from enjoying the sport at whatever level they are. 
Guides jump the learning curve of the folks they take out, but usually and generally in all of the wrong perspectives especially in the category of respect for the sport and respect for the game.
Guiding on public land and guides CASHING in on on a public resource is wrong in oh so many ways.


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

Do you feel the same about deep sea fishing guides? How about helicopter pilots that charge photographers to take them to see waterfalls? How about this scenario. A guy in his late thirties grew up in new York city, never even saw a moo cow until moving to Utah. His son meets a few kids at school who tell him about the archery hunt they went on and how they hunt almost every weekend. The new kid now wants to hunt and his dad is even into it. Problem is they have no gear....no dog.... no idea about nothing. Do you expect them to spend several thousand dollars just to try it out?.....or hire a guide that can put them on birds and be able to retrieve them. Someone to show them the basics ect... How is speeding up the learning curve a bad thing. Knowing a few basics might get someone invited on future hunts, they then might buy their own gear. What about bear and lion guides? I mean are you going to own and train 20 types of different dogs so you can hunt what ever when ever? I just don't see it as a problem as long as they are not blockingpeople from accessing the area also.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

My complaint is that waterfowl guides should be restricted to private/leased property. Why should guides be allowed on WMA's and state lands? These are public resources. 
Pelican, my question to you is this: How would you feel if I started guiding clients on your private property. I don't have to ask your permission, I just show up with my paying customers and hunt. Maybe you are there trying to get your clients on a few birds, but wait my decoy spread is so much bigger and better than yours. I have 5 dozen swan decoys out, 20 dozen duck decoys out and 15 dozen goose decoys out. Man all the birds are flying right in our decoys and my clients are having a ball. Now how do you feel about guiding? Nobody hunting public land should have to compete against a guiding service. Period!


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> My complaint is that waterfowl guides should be restricted to private/leased property. Why should guides be allowed on WMA's and state lands? These are public resources.
> Pelican, my question to you is this: How would you feel if I started guiding clients on your private property. I don't have to ask your permission, I just show up with my paying customers and hunt. Maybe you are there trying to get your clients on a few birds, but wait my decoy spread is so much bigger and better than yours. I have 5 dozen swan decoys out, 20 dozen duck decoys out and 15 dozen goose decoys out. Man all the birds are flying right in our decoys and my clients are having a ball. Now how do you feel about guiding? Nobody hunting public land should have to compete against a guiding service. Period!


Night and difference between guiding on public and private. Public is for anyone. Guides included.


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

If you bring your guys to my land.....great, means I'm making some money today and I don't have to do squat but open the gate haha. On public land you'll always gave competition and a guide does not mean he'll pull all the birds. All my stuff is private....so I'm not arguing for myself....I am just trying to understanding why guides are bad. Do you feel the same about lion and bear guides? Is it unfair maybe you can't have and train hounds, maybe you can't afford a guide, so does that mean they shouldn't either? I am not trying to be confrontational......just curious.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

pelican said:


> If you bring your guys to my land.....great, means I'm making some money today and I don't have to do squat but open the gate haha. On public land you'll always gave competition and a guide does not mean he'll pull all the birds. All my stuff is private....so I'm not arguing for myself....I am just trying to understanding why guides are bad. Do you feel the same about lion and bear guides? Is it unfair maybe you can't have and train hounds, maybe you can't afford a guide, so does that mean they shouldn't either? I am not trying to be confrontational......just curious.


A guide on public marsh land brings more competition. Yes there is already plenty of competition, that's the point. You make the comment about bringing clients to your private land and you will be making money. You can take that money and improve your property and make it better. What do the public hunting guides give back to the resource? I'm talking waterfowl here, I don't give a shiz about lion, bear and big game guides. 
The difference there is a lot more area for guides to hunt big game, lions, bears. When you are stuck on a small WMA competing with a guide it is different then being in a National Forest with miles and miles of ground between you and the next guy.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

pelican said:


> Do you feel the same about deep sea fishing guides? How about helicopter pilots that charge photographers to take them to see waterfalls? How about this scenario. A guy in his late thirties grew up in new York city, never even saw a moo cow until moving to Utah. His son meets a few kids at school who tell him about the archery hunt they went on and how they hunt almost every weekend. The new kid now wants to hunt and his dad is even into it. Problem is they have no gear....no dog.... no idea about nothing. Do you expect them to spend several thousand dollars just to try it out?.....or hire a guide that can put them on birds and be able to retrieve them. Someone to show them the basics ect... How is speeding up the learning curve a bad thing. Knowing a few basics might get someone invited on future hunts, they then might buy their own gear. What about bear and lion guides? I mean are you going to own and train 20 types of different dogs so you can hunt what ever when ever? I just don't see it as a problem as long as they are not blockingpeople from accessing the area also.


Is there any private ocean? Let compare apples to apples.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't even understand why would anyone pay a guide to hunt waterfowl on public land. 
What does the guide have to offer that the guys friend from work or buddie has to offer. 
If I'm paying a guide it is for the exclusive area that no one else can be at. 

I guess if you that lazy or rich you call a guide.


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

> I guess if you that lazy or rich you call a guide.


I'll take exception to that. Guides provide a service for people who simply don't have the resources (gear, time, etc.) to DYI. 
I'll be taking a trip this fall, I don't have the time to "do it right", by taking a couple extra days to scout, etc. I'll pay someone else to do that for me. No differently in my opinion than calling a plumber to fix my leaking pipes. I don't have the tools, the time, or the knowledge.
I am not lazy. I work 60-80 hours a week at my "real" job. I work another 20+ at my "other job" and I volunteer every chance I get, sometimes another 20+ hours a week. I'm not rich. I save a littel money, sometimes for a year or more, to pay for a trip to somewhere I've never been because that's what I enjoy.
I respect your opinion, but please don't disrespect my choices, by throwing a blanket stereotype over a group of people that don't share your same opinions.
I also respect someone who hunts the way they feel is the most respectful to resources. But lets not fool ourselves, there are bad eggs in every aspect of the sport. In many cases guides are the most respectful hunters in the marsh. They have the most to loose (IE: their entire livelyhood), they simply can't risk making foolish and/or illegal choices or allowing other to do so. Sure there are some real bad apples out there. Still not worthy of blanket statement, claiming poor, general, personality traits.

Later,
Kev


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

^^^^^^yes this^^^^^^^^


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## Rspeters (Apr 4, 2013)

I don't see any problem with letting a guide on public land. They have just as much of a right to be there as anyone else and so do their customers. They might not be able to charge as much as a guide on private land, but that's ok, because they're not having to pay out for that private land either. The market will dictate who can guide and where. I do have a problem with those who are guiding illegally because they are taking away jobs from those who have done it the right way and are licensed, etc.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

Utah has quite a bit of state-owned public land. Much of it is free for us to use recreationally...because we (general public) own it. We also own the wildlife. The state is ALWAYS saying they don't have the money to care for all of our lands properly (think phragmites). To allow a private business to make money while harvesting our publicly owned wildlife and taking space on our publicly owned wetlands to the exclusion of a regular guy that just wants the opportunity to use our lands is a lot to ask. This is privatizing a public resource...basically privatizing the profits, but socializing the true costs.
R


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

Why not charge the guides a fee to be on public land? If you want to guide on public land then you need a guiding permit! The funds from those guide permits can then be used on the WMA's to help with various projects. That seems pretty fair to me, that allows the market to dictate what would be more economical for the guide. Do I pay a land owner to use his/her land or do I pay my guide fee for public land?


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## pelican (Mar 29, 2012)

How much guiding on public land for waterfowl and upland game do you guys really think is going on?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

huntingbuddy said:


> Why not charge the guides a fee to be on public land? If you want to guide on public land then you need a guiding permit! The funds from those guide permits can then be used on the WMA's to help with various projects. That seems pretty fair to me, that allows the market to dictate what would be more economical for the guide. Do I pay a land owner to use his/her land or do I pay my guide fee for public land?


If I'm a guide I already pay this fee. License, and any number of taxes. I pay just as much as you and have every right to use it. Why not make the general public pay a fee for not using a guide. Even if there is "guide fee" I have a feeling people would still bitch.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

I think people would be more accepting of guides profiting from public resources if the fees charged by the state were a true reflection of the opportunity costs and wildlife value. Kinda like the oil companies that bid on cheap public land leases, then get to keep the vast majority of the profits reaped from the well. The small fees paid don't reflect the true costs to the people that own the land (us). Or the mining law that lets anyone stake a claim and start digging with very little to be paid in royalties to the govt. Free enterprise is great and all, but the public needs to be fairly compensated for the loss of the resource...and by fairly, I mean a very expensive $$ sum.
R


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Commercialization of the sport. 
Its about the MONEY. MONEY has a funky way of turning what was once a good thing into something really screwed up or completely ruined. MONEY is the reason and death of some really great things. 
I see guides as nothing more than pimps: 
Pimp\ (p[i^]mp), n. [Cf. F. pimpant smart, sparkish; perh. akin to piper to pipe, formerly also, to excel. Cf. Pipe.] One who provides gratification for the lust of others; a procurer; a pander.

Anybody else see any similarities?


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

You know, I guess to each their own. My opinion is such that I feel like an ethical, law abiding "guide" can provide a good service to some that choose to enjoy the sport in that way. Some just simply don't have the time, desire, means, tools and/or resources to DIY. I have all respect in the world for the DIY'ers. I was one for 25 years. I feel like many that know and have hunted with me, would say that "I know what I'm doing". Some may not, but still others might agree. I just don't have it in me anymore to do what it takes to "do it right" in my opinion. I only want to go a few times a year, and fortunately I made choices that have allowed me to secure a few life long friends that will still put up with me a few times a year, otherwise I might be inclined to hire a guide for those few times.
There are bound to be as many opinions on this as there are hunters. Everyone hunts for different reasons, and so it would lend to the difference in opinions on how one should go about it. I don't think the comparison to a "pimp" is really legitimate. I mean one could argue that youth sports coach is "pimp"? If you don't think there is some gratification for the lust of others, in youth atheltics, go watch the stands a little league game some time.
I also share the opinions of rjefre, that there should be compensation to the state for resources used above and beyond those of the "average consumer". I do feel like there would be some disagreement on those numbers and how they are reached, but that's a tale for another day.
I guess in short, what I'm saying is this. Do what you like, if that's DIY then all power to you and good hunting, if that means hiring a guide then the same. If you choose to row your boat as opposed to big block three blade propulsion either way, enjoy yourself. Autoloader, pump, double? Dog, no dog? Geese, ducks? Divers, Puddlers? Camo, old school brown? Calls, no calls? Hundreds of decoys, a dozen, none? 
DO WHAT YOU LIKE, ENJOY YOURSELF!!!!! Life is far to short and far to precious to worry about how someone else chooses to live thiers.

Later,
Kev


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

No, sports coaches aren't pimps. No money or favor really exchanges hands or at least it shouldn't.
Yes, there are other examples of "pimps" besides prostitution and guiding but coaching would be a real stretch. If the coach of the youth little league game is gaining something from his players or gaining something twisted from the football game I suggest you call law enforcement or Child and Family Services immediately. 

Again, money is the issue. The only increase of sportsmen in the past 10 years are those who make high six digit incomes. Overall, there are fewer and fewer sportsmen in the field every year. 
It doesn't boil down to something as simple as preference. If others choices did not encroach on me or the sport I love, I could maybe travel that path a ways with you, but I cant.


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