# Another 400+ Utah bull



## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Another big bull, this one on the late LE Rifle. Scored over 430"

(not mine   )

[attachment=0:1pdtc26c]IMG954670.jpg[/attachment:1pdtc26c]


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

Saw this on MM... I don't know why but when I see an outfitter logo on the pic I lose most interest. I'd rather see a small 5x5 from a DIY hunt. An impressive animal for sure and congrats to the hunter. If you're gonna pay big bucks for someone to find ya a bull than it better be a big one. I'm sure well worth the money for that guy, an amazing bull.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

DIY or Guided, it doesn't change how big that bull is. Amazing! Congrats to the hunter and guides.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Well said Judd. An amazing specimen indeed.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I never said the animal wasn't amazing


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

My Heck! That thing is enormous! If I was shooting at it I'd probably miss right through the antlers!


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## jpolson (Jun 12, 2011)

utahgolf said:


> Saw this on MM... I don't know why but when I see an outfitter logo on the pic I lose most interest. I'd rather see a small 5x5 from a DIY hunt. An impressive animal for sure and congrats to the hunter. If you're gonna pay big bucks for someone to find ya a bull than it better be a big one. I'm sure well worth the money for that guy, an amazing bull.


+1

Nice animal, but i'm just not interested if it was guided shoot.


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## FishlakeElkHunter (Sep 11, 2007)

jpolson said:


> utahgolf said:
> 
> 
> > Saw this on MM... I don't know why but when I see an outfitter logo on the pic I lose most interest. I'd rather see a small 5x5 from a DIY hunt. An impressive animal for sure and congrats to the hunter. If you're gonna pay big bucks for someone to find ya a bull than it better be a big one. I'm sure well worth the money for that guy, an amazing bull.
> ...


The guides are actually his Sons! It amazes me the people on here who bash a guided hunter. If you dont know the area...or in some places you HAVE to have a guide.

Jealousy is a very ugly thing....and it hunting it sure shows it ugly head EVERY time a nice animal is killed. The fighting and bashing of other HUNTERS is what will be the end of our sport.


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## Mike Honcho (Oct 15, 2008)

It may have been a "guided" hunt, but I believe that the guide and hunter are related. Kim Bess is the hunter and Jake Bess is the guide.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

What unit?

Nice bull!


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

FishlakeElkHunter said:


> jpolson said:
> 
> 
> > utahgolf said:
> ...


It's not jealousy, I'll never kill a bull that big, ever, period, I'm ok with that. I understand when a guide is necessary, not everyone has the ability or means or time to do a DIY. That's cool it was all in the same family... I just saw the mossback photos of the buck shot off of antelope island this year and took those feelings out a little on this thread. We complain about hunting becoming a rich mans sport and seein guide logo's on photos, and big dollar amounts exchanging hands done on public land/resources irks some people like me, especially when that big money can drive/dictate policy on public land! But that is another story and opinion I shouldn't/won't express further on this thread. And if true about the family relation on this hunt, than probably no money exchanged hands and my feelings are not even applicable or warranted on this. Congrats to the hunter. as I said before, quite a bull.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Rumor has it that this bull was ranch raised and turned out for the hunter to harvest behind a public road blocked by dmoss and crew with armed guards posted and black helicopters hovering above. Thats what i heard! :mrgreen:


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

yep....it looks like its cape has been brushed also.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

I talked to Jake about this bull today. He hunts the panguitch I believe. Just a cool father son kill. 
Jake knows how to crush monsters. This is a bull he killed last year. The biggest taken in the state in 2011. [attachment=0:3894dvtu]ImageUploadedByTapatalk1352764370.453051.jpg[/attachment:3894dvtu]
He killed this with a bow on his own hunt. He's a pretty cool underdog story. The whole outfit is him and his wife. They do a lot of lion hunting as well. Look him up. His company is Timber Mountain Outfitters.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Yes, Jake Bess is the outfitter, the name is on the pic for copy write.
Yes the hunter was his Father.
Yes Panguitch Lake LE.
He tried to find this same bull earlier for a woman that he guided on the rifle, she took a 385" bull on the opening day of the rifle hunt. 
They have watched this bull for several years and have several years of his sheds from what I have been told.
He guided a guy to a great bull on the Dutton on the last day of the rifle also.
I am a DIY hunter myself but looking at the animals that this guy has taken if I needed a guide he would sure be in the top choices.
I have never met Jake, I have a "shirt-sleeve" relative that knows him well and that is how I received the pic through email.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

Awesome looking bull, but seriously where is the sport in paying someone to locate a trophy bull for you? Im curious where that big boy was killed.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

This is more of a father and son hunt, son just happens to be a pro guide, I think it would be great to have a son that was a professional guide. 
If Jake takes his kid out and the kid kills a great bull or buck is that going to be wrong also :roll:


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Once again. Great Bull!

It really irks me when we throw each other under the bus as hunters. Why do we need to "classify" everything? Do we really need to bring down someone else's accomplishments to make us feel better? Do you really think a DIY hunter would have even been able to find this bull and get him down? Maybe, but he has obviously avoided both DIY and Guided Hunters for some time.

Congrats again on a great bull! Just remember:


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

bowgy said:


> This is more of a father and son hunt, son just happens to be a pro guide, I think it would be great to have a son that was a professional guide.
> If Jake takes his kid out and the kid kills a great bull or buck is that going to be wrong also :roll:


Its a little bit different if a guide takes his dad out to kill an awesome bull. Someone who pays an outfitter to put in the work for them, and then hold their hand through a hunt isnt even a hunter in my mind. But if this is a son who takes his dad out on the hunt and helps him find this MONSTER bull, I can respect that. Congrats to the guys involved in the hunt.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Never have liked blue Jeeps but I would do a guided hunt no different than I would do a guided fishing trip. To each their own.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Looks like 90 has a problem with paying for a service. Perhaps because he honestly disagrees with it or because he can't pay for it himself. Whatever the reason may be it is bashing is hurtful to hunting and hunters as a whole. It creates division amongst hunters and feeds an already giant pool full of animosity towards those that partake in the Pay-To-Hunt industry. (How many out there hate the words Moss Back already?)

This reminds me of the poor guy that would always say that money doesn't buy you happiness. He may be right or he may be wrong; funny thing is he’s never had any money so what does he know.

It’s an amazing animal and both hunter and guide (related or not) probably worked their tails off for him and deserve credit for their trophy. Bulls like that are a longshot to find and another longshot to be in an easy spot to get.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> Looks like 90 has a problem with paying for a service. Perhaps because he honestly disagrees with it or because he can't pay for it himself. Whatever the reason may be it is bashing is hurtful to hunting and hunters as a whole. It creates division amongst hunters and feeds an already giant pool full of animosity towards those that partake in the Pay-To-Hunt industry. (How many out there hate the words Moss Back already?)
> 
> This reminds me of the poor guy that would always say that money doesn't buy you happiness. He may be right or he may be wrong; funny thing is he's never had any money so what does he know.
> 
> It's an amazing animal and both hunter and guide (related or not) probably worked their tails off for him and deserve credit for their trophy. Bulls like that are a longshot to find and another longshot to be in an easy spot to get.


to a certain extent I agree, but hunters also have to police eachother and have to stick up for what they believe in and what sort of legacy we are leaving for the future. Sometimes that means disagreeing. Do we want limited, high dollar tags and let trophy hunting and outfitters dictate policy and the future of hunting? Some fear its going too far that way and seeing guiding logos, and the pimping out of our resources causes some to speak out against other types of "hunters." More 400 plus inch bulls and 200 plus inch mulies fetch a higher price and policy is being swayed that way. Just remember trophy hunting and special hunting interest groups have done more to limit hunting opportunity than PETA or other anti hunting groups. I'm not saying this applies to this hunt or even this guiding service, like I said before, it's a great bull and congrats to the father and son, but I think it can be healthy to disagree with other hunting groups and practices.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Well said Judd! Nice Bull!


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

Everyone uses a guide.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

idiot with a bow said:


> Everyone uses a guide.


This is what I always say as well. I don't know many people that don't use a guide to some degree or another...some pay and some don't.

I really don't care if a guy pays a truckload of money to kill a big bull, or has 8 friends and family that scout and help him find the biggest bull on the mountain. Who cares. What I admire is someone who can be successful, make enough money to support his family and several other families, make his money through hard work, doing one of the most ******* hobbies out there. If you can take your hobby (hunting) and figure out how to make it a successful business, more power to you.

btw...awesome bull!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

FishlakeElkHunter said:


> The guides are actually his Sons! It amazes me the people on here who bash a guided hunter. If you dont know the area...or in some places you HAVE to have a guide.
> 
> Jealousy is a very ugly thing....and it hunting it sure shows it ugly head EVERY time a nice animal is killed. The fighting and bashing of other HUNTERS is what will be the end of our sport.


That bull is a stud....no way around it. Guided or not, I am jealous. I am also jealous of any hunter guided or not that shoots nice animals. BUT, in my eyes, guided hunts lessen the accomplishment whether it be with hunting or with fishing just like shooting a monster animal off a high fence ranch would or catching a trophy fish off a private pond would...sorry, but it just ain't the same. Am I jealous of those people who get those opportunities? Yeah...but even if I were the shooter, the experience wouldn't be the same.

As far as having to use a guide goes, no one EVER must use a guide. That is ALWAYS a hunter's choice. True, some states/situations require a hunter to hire a guide in order to hunt, but you as a hunter still have the choice to to hunt that area or that animal or not. Personally, I will NEVER hire a guide to hunt. And, in Utah, I don't EVER see a reason why someone must hire a guide. To me, half the hunt is finding the animal....that means learning an area. Just a couple years ago I received a paunsagaunt deer tag one day before the hunt started. I had never hunted the unit and has spent virtually no time on the unit at all...taking the time to learn a new area is half the fun of hunting! IN my opinion, too many hunters are far too focused on the kill rather than the experience of hunting...I believe this is sad and a mistake harvest or not!


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

W2U, I feel the same way. It is called HUNTING for a reason, not SHOOTING. I've been lucky enough to go on a few draw tag hunts, and they've all been successful HUNTS despite the fact I did or didn't kill something. My best elk is from an OTC tag, hunted hard to literally the LAST day of a 31 day season. My best two muleys, one with a rifle and one with a bow BOTH came from my own hard work and effort... not one of the "I have to thank so-n-so for my success", but from ME hunting for and finding my animals. 

I too feel there is too much emphasis on the prizes given for stories and photos of people's "mine is an inch bigger than your's" guided affairs, and it is going to be the demise of our heritage and sport.

I don't hold a grudge to those who do use a guide, I simply think they need to look at the bigger picture of how that affects, as was mentioned, the political structure and future of our outdoors obsessions.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

That is one HUGE FREAKING elk. Wow. Well done for the guide and the hunter. 

I've got nothing against guides or hunters that use guides. Just like I got nothing against guys that fling arrows or shoot smoke poles. Or guys that hunt ducks, or swans, or geese or chuckars, or rabbits, or pheasants, or whatever. Its all a different hunting experience. If a guy draws that LE tag and uses a guide, in my world he just helped our economy. Good on him. Might be different than how I hunt, but no worries here. And I am not one to judge how fulfilling or personally rewarding a hunt is for another guy. That is a highly individual kind of thing. No matter what though - that is one heck of an elk. Wow.


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## fishnate (Sep 11, 2007)

I love the character on the antlers of the bull. I have no problem with guided hunts but I hope the guy at least worked at it and didn't shoot it from his truck or ATV. That would have been too much. A bull like that deserves some effort on the hunters/shooters part.


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## brucifr (Sep 18, 2012)

"The cornerstone of a second rater is the belittlement of another mans achievements".

I forgot who wrote that...I think it was Ann Rand. I shot a nice bull this year and have got a lot of congrats and pats on the back...and though I didn't have a guide I never would have pulled it off without help and advice from friends and family. We should all think about what makes our hunts a success even if it's just asking directions at a gas station...we all get a little help here and there. And even if you found a nice animal all by yourself I'm betting somebody along the way showed you how and where to look.

NICE BULL!!!


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I have never “Hired” a guide.....but I am soooooooo not against them. I was gifted a hunt in Africa where the person who gifted me the hunt hired a guide and it was awesome to be with someone who understood the area, the game and the trophy quality for animals that I was very uneducated about. I now know much more about those animals than I would have by trying to learn it myself. I have guided MANY people to take MANY great animals. They have always been a good experience and have become closer in my relationships with all of them. I never charged a dime but none the less, I was “guiding”. I have had many people assist me and help me to get better results on hunts for myself. I was “guided” in sorts on my “do it yourself” hunt in those instances. I have a “friend” that I spoke with yesterday for an hour on the phone. He knows more about one of the better units in our state than anyone that I know. I have sent close friends to him, I have included him in my camp on several occasions when hunting that unit for multiple species with multiple friends and family. He could get paid large amounts of money for his knowledge but chooses to do it for the joy that it brings him. He is a great guy and we speak often now as friends but found him due to someone telling me to contact him before putting in for a tag. 
The point that I am getting to is that those who worry about whether someone is being guided or not are missing out on some wonderful friendships. You may want to evaluate the “unteachable” status that you are currently living your lives. I understand that you feel an accomplishment in the fact that you did it yourself. I have felt that accomplishment. I can say however that it doesn’t match the feeling of getting it done and having someone to share it with. If you shared it with someone and still feel that you did it yourself, you are a stubborn lonely person. 
Whether you "hire" a guide, befriend some assistance or simply take someone along for company and strengthen bonds, do not feel ashamed. You have figured out that hunting is about relationships as well as harvesting your game. 

Now, so I don’t feel like I contributed to the hijack of this thread........That is a great bull.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Like I have said above, I am a DIY hunter, I would probably never hire a guide unless it was an animal I wanted to hunt and a guide was required, such as brown bear in Alaska.

That being said I would like to pose a question. 

Scenario is: I have been scouting and then hunting an area hard, I go out one day and my firend wants to come along, (friend could be a guide, a good hunter or even a non hunter), well we hike into the area a mile or more and I spot a great buck, nice 4 point about 27" wide and pretty heavy, I decide to take him, I get a good rest and I am just about to sueeze off the shot when my friend taps me on the shoulder and says, look over there, and the same distance, say about 150 yards broad side is a monster, well over 30" wide and extra points say 6x8 and very heavy. 

Now the question what would you do? If you don't shoot the first one, the one you found and you shoot the bigger one the one your friend found, are you any different then shooting one with a guide?


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

bowgy said:


> Like I have said above, I am a DIY hunter, I would probably never hire a guide unless it was an animal I wanted to hunt and a guide was required, such as brown bear in Alaska.
> 
> That being said I would like to pose a question.
> 
> ...


I believe that I have already answered your question.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I don't think we are viewing the same "guide" term. I would hire a guide in many instances, alaska, africa and it's mandatory in many places anyways. BUT Having a buddy or family member help ya, or asking questions for help on a forum, is much more different than writing someone a check for $20,000 dollars. But even if you don't think it's different, I think most people are worried or have ill feelings, is when it's done on public property/resources, and that some of these outfits have some pretty well connected friends and pull to help sway policy on said public land/resources. You hear certain outfits complaining about the quality of less 200 inch mulies or 400 plus inch elk. Once you start putting these bounties on racks, then limited opportunity comes in and we're seeing that put in place. People can do what they want with their money, I just don't want that mentality spilling over into policy that limits the average "DIY" hunters opportunity. That isn't what hunting is about, we don't need policy to grow these huge animals becaue they fetch a better price.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

bowgy said:


> Like I have said above, I am a DIY hunter, I would probably never hire a guide unless it was an animal I wanted to hunt and a guide was required, such as brown bear in Alaska.
> 
> That being said I would like to pose a question.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

brucifr said:


> "The cornerstone of a second rater is the belittlement of another mans achievements".
> 
> I forgot who wrote that...I think it was Ann Rand. I shot a nice bull this year and have got a lot of congrats and pats on the back...and though I didn't have a guide I never would have pulled it off without help and advice from friends and family. We should all think about what makes our hunts a success even if it's just asking directions at a gas station...we all get a little help here and there. And even if you found a nice animal all by yourself I'm betting somebody along the way showed you how and where to look.
> 
> NICE BULL!!!


 8)


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

bowgy said:


> Now the question what would you do? If you don't shoot the first one, the one you found and you shoot the bigger one the one your friend found, are you any different then shooting one with a guide?


First of all, yeah, I would probably try to shoot the bigger buck if and only if I had ethical shots on both. If the smaller buck provided the better shot, it would be the one I try to take....but that's not the argument.

The argument is whether or not that is any different than having a guide help me out to find the same deer...personally, I say hell yeah it is different. Did my friend get paid? Did I put a lot of time and effort in doing the work prior to the shot or the find? Did my friend lead me to the area because of the money he was given? The answers to those questions are most important to me...

...Theodore Roosevelt spoke directly to it on a number of occasions. In his book, Outdoor Pastimes of an American Hunter he wrote: "The professional market hunter who kills game for the hide or for the feathers or for the meat or to sell antlers and other trophies; . and the rich who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions - these are the men who are the real enemies of game."

Sorry, but a friend who helps because he is a friend and a paid guide are two different things....if someone else wants to hire a guide, that is their choice. But, in my eyes, the credit goes to the guide and not the shooter...

Read The Vanishing Hunter series...especially part 2!
http://www.deltawaterfowl.org/media/mag ... /part2.php


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

bowgy said:


> ....
> Now the question what would you do? If you don't shoot the first one, the one you found and you shoot the bigger one the one your friend found, are you any different then shooting one with a guide?


No offense intended but this is a very stupid scenario. There is no difference. you shoot the buck that you want to shoot. Doesn't matter who found it, or where. You put in your due dilligence I understand but at the end of the day you have no controll over what buck/bull decides to show up and walk in front of your path. You could pay a guide a fortune and it's up to the animal to show up. You could open your front door and find the largest bull on earth.

Guides serve a purpose paid or not. It's not unethical and it's not illegal. If you decide to shoot your deer or the other one that is a personal decision and it doesn't make you more or less of a hunter. Can you honestly tell me that the bigger buck would not have shown up if your friend didn't go with you? That's all "would have, could have, should have".

And yes I would have shot the bigger of the two.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

utahgolf said:


> I don't think we are viewing the same "guide" term. I would hire a guide in many instances, alaska, africa and it's mandatory in many places anyways. BUT Having a buddy or family member help ya, or asking questions for help on a forum, is much more different than writing someone a check for $20,000 dollars. But even if you don't think it's different, I think most people are worried or have ill feelings, is when it's done on public property/resources, and that some of these outfits have some pretty well connected friends and pull to help sway policy on said public land/resources. You hear certain outfits complaining about the quality of less 200 inch mulies or 400 plus inch elk. Once you start putting these bounties on racks, then limited opportunity comes in and we're seeing that put in place. People can do what they want with their money, I just don't want that mentality spilling over into policy that limits the average "DIY" hunters opportunity. That isn't what hunting is about, we don't need policy to grow these huge animals becaue they fetch a better price.


Excellent post!

That's an awesome bull and I congratulate the hunter. Now, I have no objection whatsoever to guides and their services and would jump at the chance to use one if I felt the need, but I do object to the fact that hunting attitudes and policies are geared more and more to that segment of the hunting community, ie: more trophies, guides, dollars, fewer hunters, bigger antlers and higher buck to doe ratios, while crowding out the vast majority of Utah's hunters who are the ones actually paying the bill. This thread is an example of that. It isn't just a father and son hunt as some of you may claim. It is an obvious advertisement for a guiding service with the logo attached to the photo. But even then, I have no objection as long as it doesn't direct policy or inspire someone else to direct policy. We already have (or at least had) a policy to accommodate that segment of the hunting community with the LE hunts and CWMU hunts and the higher than biologically necessary buck to doe ratios. But each year we see more proposals to ratchet up those trophy directed policies and we ain't done yet, folks, ie; shorter seasons, fewer tags/buck hunters, higher buck to doe ratios, antler point restrictions and increased fees.

I hope we can get back on track with science-based policies that benefit all hunters!


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> ....if someone else wants to hire a guide, that is their choice. But, in my eyes, the credit goes to the guide and not the shooter...


Although what you say is true. It is a narrow minded person who really cares who gets the credit. The glory should never go to one individual when there are many involved.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > ....if someone else wants to hire a guide, that is their choice. But, in my eyes, the credit goes to the guide and not the shooter...
> ...


You are exactly right...but isn't that what hunting is becoming? Aren't hunters/we collectively a chest-pounding bunch? Why do we post pictures and mount our trophies? It sure seems to me that we are really into taking credit and promoting ourselves...I hope I am wrong! I really wish that all the pictures we see and mounts people get made are not done to celebrate an accomplishment as much as an experience. You've heard the ol' saying that a picture is worth a thousand words...are these pictures being posted done to tell a story or brag of an accomplishment? Afterall, why do you see the logos of guides/outfitters on the pictures? Isn't it to promote their services...? Again, maybe I am wrong, but what is it that most guides/outfitters advertise? Isn't it high success rates on trophy animals? Aren't they more focused on the kill rather than the hunt? This, to me, is the problem! I would love to see some guides that based their whole business on a great hunting experience rather than a trophy animal!

I do think there is a place for guides and I do think that the guiding/outfitting business can work together with the DIY style hunters...but, as others have noted, we need to maintain the democracy of hunting and we can't allow guides/outfitters to dictate social aspects of game management.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> You are exactly right...but isn't that what hunting is becoming? Aren't hunters/we collectively a chest-pounding bunch? Why do we post pictures and mount our trophies? It sure seems to me that we are really into taking credit and promoting ourselves...*I hope I am wrong!* I really wish that all the pictures we see and mounts people get made are not done to celebrate an accomplishment as much as an experience. You've heard the ol' saying that a picture is worth a thousand words...are these pictures being posted done to tell a story or brag of an accomplishment? Afterall, why do you see the logos of guides/outfitters on the pictures? Isn't it to promote their services...? Again, maybe I am wrong, but what is it that most guides/outfitters advertise? Isn't it high success rates on trophy animals? Aren't they more focused on the kill rather than the hunt? This, to me, is the problem! I would love to see some guides that based their whole business on a great hunting experience rather than a trophy animal!


You could be wrong and right. I can only speak for myself but I have a room full of over 50 mounts that most all of them are not "Trophy" quality. I tell people all of the time as they look over my "Trophy" room that they are wrong in calling it Trophy as it is a "Memory" room. I love having my children point at any animal in the room and I get to relive and tell the story about that hunt. I also find myself quite often just sitting in a chair amongst my mounts and just glance over all of them and let the memories flood my mind as that mount jars my recollection. 
As for pictures, I am as guilty as the next guy in the fact that I post pictures for bragging rights about an animal that nobody who sees those photo's could possibly know the "story" or the "memories" made. They only see the "Trophy". However, I have been getting better at this of late as I don't post photo's on the forum at all. There are too many people wanting to know where. haha I can address the final thought though as far as guides putting their logo on the photo. That is what they do for a living. It only makes sense to me. That is where I am guilty of posting photo's on the facebook page that those photo's show proof that what I am peddling works. This will always be battled. When peoples livelyhoods are on the line, they advertise. There is a big difference between advertising and bragging........and then sometimes not.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

> *elkfromabove wrote:*
> 
> It isn't just a father and son hunt as some of you may claim. It is an obvious advertisement for a guiding service with the logo attached to the photo. But even then, I have no objection as long as it doesn't direct policy or inspire someone else to direct policy.


Bingo! I don't have a problem with guides as long as their agenda doesn't infringe on the rights of other hunters. but sadly the trophy hunting and high dollar bounties placed on racks have us heading down a bad path.. Other outfits, not saying this outfit, but a well known one and other hunting groups are doing more to limit opportunity than anti hunting groups.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> MadHunter wrote: No offense intended but this is a very stupid scenario.
> 
> _No offense taken, it's your opinion and that's cool._
> *no differenceThere is . you shoot the buck that you want to shoot. Doesn't matter who found it, or where*.


*BINGO thanks for making my point* 8)


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> elk22hunter wrote: they are wrong in calling it Trophy as it is a "Memory" room. I love having my children point at any animal in the room and I get to relive and tell the story about that hunt. I also find myself quite often just sitting in a chair amongst my mounts and just glance over all of them and let the memories flood my mind as that mount jars my recollection.


I feel the same way.

As far as pics, I post them for others to enjoy because I enjoy seeing other's hunting and fishing pics.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Anytime Brother! :O--O:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> [ I can address the final thought though as far as guides putting their logo on the photo. That is what they do for a living. It only makes sense to me. That is where I am guilty of posting photo's on the facebook page that those photo's show proof that what I am peddling works. This will always be battled. When peoples livelyhoods are on the line, they advertise. There is a big difference between advertising and bragging........and then sometimes not.


Again, no real argument. I think, though, the advertising done by these groups is basically saying, "If you hire us, we will give you the highest chance at a trophy animal!" Why do these guys market themselves this way? Is it not because the people willing to pay them are only willing to pay if they have a chance at a monster? Aren't these people basically saying that they are not capable of harvesting such an animal on their own? Do those that hire guides within this state NOT believe that they can go have a positive experience unless they hire that guide? Can guides not be prosperous and make money without the trophy animal?

I, too, love to see the pictures of what other people have harvested...big or small! I am not saying pics should not be shared! I am also not saying that guides shouldn't advertise or shouldn't look to shoot trophies...


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

elk22hunter said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > You are exactly right...but isn't that what hunting is becoming? Aren't hunters/we collectively a chest-pounding bunch? Why do we post pictures and mount our trophies? It sure seems to me that we are really into taking credit and promoting ourselves...*I hope I am wrong!* I really wish that all the pictures we see and mounts people get made are not done to celebrate an accomplishment as much as an experience. You've heard the ol' saying that a picture is worth a thousand words...are these pictures being posted done to tell a story or brag of an accomplishment? Afterall, why do you see the logos of guides/outfitters on the pictures? Isn't it to promote their services...? Again, maybe I am wrong, but what is it that most guides/outfitters advertise? Isn't it high success rates on trophy animals? Aren't they more focused on the kill rather than the hunt? This, to me, is the problem! I would love to see some guides that based their whole business on a great hunting experience rather than a trophy animal!
> ...


Pretty dang awesome animal, to say the least.

I like your attitude 22, especially about your "Memory" room. It's too bad that the word "Trophy" has morphed into a word that is synonymous with "Big, Huge, Class by itself, Ultimate Achievement, etc. etc. etc.". I'm sure you get my drift. To me, a trophy is simply a memento, an object by which memories can be recalled of an event that is/was special to the holder. The manufacturing industry, retail industry, guides/outfitters, media publications (hunting/fishing mags and others not even related to those pastimes),and even hunters in general and others have propagated trophy into a four letter word for many, many people, and that really sucks... Like has been said, as long as the guides/outfitters don't push that mentality onto the hunting realm where it limits, diminishes or even removes the aspirations of the blue collar hunters/fishers, I have no problem with them whatsoever. I wish I had a job doing what I love to do the most...


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## jpolson (Jun 12, 2011)

brucifr said:


> "The cornerstone of a second rater is the belittlement of another mans achievements".
> 
> I forgot who wrote that...I think it was Ann Rand. I shot a nice bull this year and have got a lot of congrats and pats on the back...and though I didn't have a guide I never would have pulled it off without help and advice from friends and family. We should all think about what makes our hunts a success even if it's just asking directions at a gas station...we all get a little help here and there. And even if you found a nice animal all by yourself I'm betting somebody along the way showed you how and where to look.
> 
> NICE BULL!!!


Ayn Rand, not Ann Rand. Not sure if she said it or not. But the quote is misused due to the fact that the achievement belongs to the guide...not the shooter.


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## brucifr (Sep 18, 2012)

Yeah I bet the guy that shot the bull may feel like he achieved something. And who knows what really went down with this hunt...it sounds like the guides were in fact the hunters sons. Who knows...maybe this guy guides with his boys and drew a tag this year and decided to shoot the big bull he's been watching instead of guiding a client into it. I wrote what I did because I thought it was soooo lame that the first thing several people,(and seemingly including yourself), did was bag on this guys achievement because there was an outfitters logo on the pic. I'm betting few if anyone posting on this site knows all the variables that went into this kill and it just comes across as "well if I had the $ I could kill a 400+ bull too". 

Sorry I spelled Ayn's name wrong...and it is her words. From Atlas Shrugged. 

Don't be a Turd...just say nice bull


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## jpolson (Jun 12, 2011)

brucifr said:


> Don't be a Turd...just say nice bull


I did...first page of the thread.


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## jpolson (Jun 12, 2011)

brucifr said:


> "The cornerstone of a second rater is the belittlement of another mans achievements".


Ah, found it. Dr. Stadler to Dagny.



> "Do you know the hallmark of a second rater? It's resentment of another man's achievement. Those touchy mediocrities who sit trembling lest someone's work prove greater than their own - they have no inkling of the loneliness that comes when you reach the top. The loneliness for an equal - for a mind to respect and an achievement to admire. They bare their teeth at you from out of their rat holes,thinking that you take pleasure in letting your brilliance dim them - while you'd give a year of my life to see a flicker of talent anywhere among them. They envy achievement, and their dream of greatness is a world where all men have become their acknowledged inferiors. They don't know that that dream is the infallible proof of mediocrity, because that sort of world is what the man of achievement would not be able to bear. They have no way of knowing what he feels when surrounded by inferiors - hatred? no, not hatred, but boredom - the terrible, hopeless, draining, paralyzing boredom. Of what account are praise and adulation from men whom you don't respect? Have you ever felt the longing for someone you could admire? For something, not to look down at, but up to?"
> "I've felt it all my life," she said."


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

Its a bad sign for the good name of hunting when the man that has the most money is the one that kills the biggest animal. Shouldnt it be, the man who puts in the most time on the mountain is the one to kill the biggest bull? To me, hunting is all about working your tail off all summer in search of your game and once you've found the animal you want to harvest and the season rolls around then you must put your preparation to use while you try to outsmart your prey in order to get close enough to make the kill. I understand everyone has a different mindset, but I think it is a sad thing when money takes control. Everyone is in a huge debate about guided hunts vs. DIY hunts and I personally couldnt feel the same sense of accomplishment on a guided hunt where all I have to do is write a check, show up, and pull the trigger.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

90redryder said:


> I personally couldnt feel the same sense of accomplishment on a guided hunt where all I have to do is write a check, show up, and pull the trigger.


Have you been on a guided hunt before and somehow came up with that conclusion or is it just an opinion you have? I'd be interested to know what you are basing it on.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

90redryder said:


> Its a bad sign for the good name of hunting when the man that has the most money is the one that kills the biggest animal.
> 
> Shouldnt it be, the man who puts in the most time on the mountain is the one to kill the biggest bull? When did that become a rule or a guideline? That's like saying the assembly line guy should make millions because he's the one doing the actual work. Life is anything but fair.
> 
> ...


Like I said before, and no attack or offense is intended... but when a guy that has never been rich tells me that money can't buy happines.... I won't believe him.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

> "My father in law has a saying everytime we have a big family meal with all the fixings, "I wonder what the rich are eating tonight?" It means, "I betcha they don't have it as good as us". In the hunting realm, I can easily apply the same logic. Regardless of how many trophy animals rich dudes buy, they will never ever come close to the joy the common joe gets when he is out with family and friends. Sure, some guides might be fun guys, but it is business and not a 'true' friendship. What I have, is way way better. I know it, and I am sure some of those rich boys know it too. They are longing for something that their money just can't buy. Their happiness is very fleating when they have success. It is never enough. Maybe the next time. Nope! The next time doesn't do it for them either. Meanwhile, you can't take the $hit eatin' grin off a regular joe's face for months afterwards when they see success. Or better yet, when they see their kid's success. That is where the true rubber meets the road and the happiness remains. True Joy! Something the rich rarely ever find"


I like this quote, got it off of another site and think it's applicable here for those that throw out the jealousy card cause it has nothing to do with that. I don't like class warfare, and I don't care how others spend their money. I just know people are sick of money influencing heritage and traditions. Trophy animals have become big money and that big money is limiting opportunity and influencing policy. I do see a difference of a guy holding a bull in the pic with a smile versus a guy holding a bull with a logo promoting his kill to attract future bounties for other animals. BUT I won't take away his right to do so or to advertise it, and I just wish and hope certain outfits and groups would quit trying to take away others opportunity just to increase antler size so they fetch a better price and cater to the guys who just care about the inches. I hope we all find some middle ground and don't infringe on eachothers rghts/opportunities.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> And what makes you think that the guy who writes a check didn't work for his kill? If I am going to Montana I can't afford the time to scout like I would here in Utah. That's what a guide is for. I am paying because I wasn't able to put the time in the summer. I will still put lots of tracks on my boots and endure the cold, the heat, the steap terrain, the uncomfortable cot, the lack of a shower, etc. Or maybe I'll pay just beause I can pay. It's nobodies business what I pay for or don't and nobody has the right to judge me based on what I pay for and don't.


Why do you need to scout? I think I have scouted a total of one day in my life! Why can't you use your knowledge base of deer, for example, and go to Montana and find animals? Why do you need to scout in order to have an enjoyable hunt? What you are saying is that you need someone else to find the deer for you...in other words, your own abilities are inadequate and you are unable to be successful without someone else doing the finding for you. You are right, you can pay all you want for those services...but doesn't that make you feel like a little less of a hunter?

I remember the first time I went salmon fishing in Canada, my partner was all about wanting to hire a guide. I couldn't figure it out...I kept asking him "why?" He thought that we needed someone to show us how and where to catch the fish. I ended up telling him that I would only pay for a guide if we couldn't figure it out on our own. The first day we were fishing, we began catching fish and lots of them. We never hired a guide. Since then, I have gone back to Canada numerous times and fished numerous other rivers with salmon. Based on my own knowledge base and along with the knowledge of family also on these trips, we have always caught lots of fish without hiring a guide. Why do you need a guide to do something you are fully capable of? I don't get it...

...I can understand hiring a guide to help on an African hunt or even on a whitetail hunt, but I don't get hiring an elk guide in another state or a mule deer guide in another state.


MadHunter said:


> Like I said before, and no attack or offense is intended... but when a guy that has never been rich tells me that money can't buy happines.... I won't believe him.


You ever read the poem "Richard Cory"?

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/174248

When that guy tells me that money don't buy happiness, I remember this poem!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

All of a sudden you are bashing those of us that scout? Because we scout are less knowledable on game than you? or have less skill? Scouting is just another step in preparation. Everyone prepares differently. Arguing that point is assenine and evidence of a willingness to be conflictive.

Now, your poem.... consider the source. Arlington himself was an unhappy man. Although he did acheive much as a poet/writer he did not however, acheive much finacially.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> All of a sudden you are bashing those of us that scout? Because we scout are less knowledable on game than you? or have less skill? Scouting is just another step in preparation. Everyone prepares differently. Arguing that point is assenine and evidence of a willingness to be conflictive.
> 
> Now, your poem.... consider the source. Arlington himself was an unhappy man. Although he did acheive much as a poet/writer he did not however, acheive much finacially.


I am not bashing scouting...in fact, I am not bashing you. I am simply asking a question...why do you feel the need to have someone scout for you? I would be the first to say that I am not the greatest hunter in the world and know far less than others when it comes to finding and killing mule deer. BUT, I feel like I know plenty to head to Montana or Idaho or any other state with mule deer to hunt and have success. I also feel like tools like google earth or even topo maps will give me plenty of information to head me in the right directions. Do you feel like that if you went to Montana and didn't hire a guide your hunt would be a waste? Just trying to understand your viewpoint...no need to get all bent out of shape!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Not bent out of shape. My desire to scout just comes form my personality (and a good excuse to head to the hills). I like to prepare as much as possible. Here is my take on it. If I bought an OTC doe tag or leftover general season tag I probably wouldn't scout. If I drew a tag I have been applying for years to get and it has cost me over those years several hundreds of dollars plus a tag cost that would put me into the thousand range. I want to be even more prepared and will probably even hire a guide. I want to get the best out of my dollars and my long awaited experience.


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## Broadside_Shot (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm just not sure anymore what people expect from hunting.

Some guys hate guides and feel its not right.
Some guys hate people that put in for areas with no knowlege of the unit.
Some guys hate people who shoot small bucks
Some guys hate people that use Rifles/Bows.

It just seems that when a trophy animal is taken there is always some story to try and lessen the accomplishment.

I think it really does come down to peoples jealousy. :?


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

MadHunter said:


> 90redryder said:
> 
> 
> > Its a bad sign for the good name of hunting when the man that has the most money is the one that kills the biggest animal.
> ...


You get all defensive as if you think I am trying to make you change your opinion. I am simply stating what my opinion is and you keep taking things as if I am putting a personal attack on you. For you information I have tasted success on the other side of things. I have never paid for a guide but I have hunted in a situation where a buddy found a deer, called me up and all I had to do was drive to the area, hike half a mile and take a good shot and the buck was mine. I did have a sense of accomplishment but that hunt didnt give me anywhere near as much of a rush or sense of excitement as any other hunt where I have hunted for myself, put in the work, and had success.

I gotta say, it really cracks me up how much of a drama queen you are. You keep jumping to conclusions about the intent of my posts, my financial situation, and what type of hunting scenarios i've been in. Seriously, you know nothing about me, my family, how much money I have, or what I have experienced in my life so maybe its best that you just stop assuming things. I didnt just pull my opinions out of my ass, they are based and the way I was raised and certain events that I have experienced.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

JuddCT said:


> 90redryder said:
> 
> 
> > I personally couldnt feel the same sense of accomplishment on a guided hunt where all I have to do is write a check, show up, and pull the trigger.
> ...


Read my last post you maybe then you might be able to wrap your head around my reasoning.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

90redryder said:


> Someone who pays an outfitter to put in the work for them, and then hold their hand through a hunt isnt even a hunter in my mind.


No problem red. I just wanted to understand more where you were coming from (especially when you said the above quote). I think it is important to note that on many "guided" hunts many times the scouted bull/buck isn't even taken. I accompanied my brother on his LE elk hunt last year where a guide was contracted more so to help access/get to know the area (not to mention they had access to horses which we didn't). We (along with the guide) found many bulls the night before the hunt started that were amazing. In fact the biggest bulls we found were found by having 4 sets of eyes glassing (father, brother, myself, guide). The bull my brother shot was when he was all by himself without anyone else even seeing it. It was an amazing experience that we couldn't have enjoyed without the help of our guide. Not only did we leave with a great experience, we also left with a new friendship that will last a long time.

To me that is more important than the animal. It is the memories. Even the so called DIY guys get too caught up in the harvest (whether it be their own or others). I just wish we all could get over our hunter-class specific insecurities and just come together.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

JuddCT said:


> 90redryder said:
> 
> 
> > Someone who pays an outfitter to put in the work for them, and then hold their hand through a hunt isnt even a hunter in my mind.
> ...


So you and that guide are still buddies who hang out and hunt together? Or you consider him a friend because he was a good guide and acted as nicely as possible since you were paying him to be there? I do understand the mindset of the guys that pay guides, I just cant agree with that mentality. Sure I might not kill as many trophy animals but I like to say, I scouted this area and I learned the habits of the animals rather than I paid this guy to take me to a good area and he showed me how the animals move through the terrain. In my mind, the hunt starts long before the actual season starts, and its all part of the game. Sometimes you spend days and hikes mile after mile just to learn that there are no elk in an area where you thought they would be, but that is part of the fun, there is alot more to it than just killing an animal.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

90redryder said:


> JuddCT said:
> 
> 
> > 90redryder said:
> ...


Wow, you sure do deal in absolutes. How does it feel to see the world in only black and white? I sure hope you made your own spear that you take down your trophies with, otherwise you might not be a "real" hunter. 

Plain and simple, he is a friend. It might be hard for you to understand that, but I can't control how you think. Remember, I wasn't paying him to be there, it wasn't my hunt. I only paid the outfitter to "tag" along for room and board.

Good luck on your future hunts.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

JuddCT said:


> 90redryder said:
> 
> 
> > JuddCT said:
> ...


I really am a pretty relaxed guy, there are certain things that I am very closed minded about and this is one of them. The only time I could ever bring myself to use a guide is if I went on a sweet hunt over in Africa, and using a guide is the only way you could even hunt Africa.
Good luck out in the field, and be safe out there.


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## cougar2 (Sep 5, 2011)

I respect every mans opinion, guide no guide, I happen to be a guide and we spend the majority of our time trying to locate game for our clients because most just don't have the time to do it their selves and when they are lucky enough to draw or rich enough to buy a tag, they sure do want the help, friends or paid help, it's how each one looks at it I guess. I know I would want a guide in Africa if I were to hunt there!, to each his own I guess. About the bull, I killed him, and I had the help of my boys and my brothers,( Timber Mountain Outfitters), we tried to find him for an earlier hunter but could not find him, I was just able to draw the tag needed to get this bull, we did not have a late season hunter at the time, but the hunters we did have earlier killed big bulls, and I am positive they could not have done so without a guide, I would not have been able to have killed a bull of this caliber if not for the help I had (family) or guides how ever you look at it, help makes a difference, take it or leave it, just what you want, this bull will gross score around 428 and should net about 415, guess it was my time, but I had the best help I could find anywhere period, and I know most of you know what it takes, GOOD LUCK in all your future hunts, thanks.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Congratulations on an amazing bull!


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## brucifr (Sep 18, 2012)

cougar2 said:


> I respect every mans opinion, guide no guide, I happen to be a guide and we spend the majority of our time trying to locate game for our clients because most just don't have the time to do it their selves and when they are lucky enough to draw or rich enough to buy a tag, they sure do want the help, friends or paid help, it's how each one looks at it I guess. I know I would want a guide in Africa if I were to hunt there!, to each his own I guess. About the bull, I killed him, and I had the help of my boys and my brothers,( Timber Mountain Outfitters), we tried to find him for an earlier hunter but could not find him, I was just able to draw the tag needed to get this bull, we did not have a late season hunter at the time, but the hunters we did have earlier killed big bulls, and I am positive they could not have done so without a guide, I would not have been able to have killed a bull of this caliber if not for the help I had (family) or guides how ever you look at it, help makes a difference, take it or leave it, just what you want, this bull will gross score around 428 and should net about 415, guess it was my time, but I had the best help I could find anywhere period, and I know most of you know what it takes, GOOD LUCK in all your future hunts, thanks.


So glad you posted this...it puts a personality with the face and gives everyone a glance at the person behind bull. Hope all the knuckleheads posting all this negative crap didn't spoil any part of this experience for you...sounds to me like you really deserve that trophy. Like you said...it was your time. So happy for you!! Congrats!!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^ WELCOME TO THE FORUM cougar2!!!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hope you stick around and join in on discussions that take place here...

The UWN would benefit having you around, :O||:

And congrats on a SWEET bull


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