# Expo



## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

I just got an email today telling me I should apply for the $5 Expo hunts. I can't believe that the year has already gone by so fast. I thought I might apply this year and maybe get lucky. Anyone else planning on applying for the expo hunts?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I got that email also. I am thinking I will not apply just out of principal. Many of us here on the forum are against the practices and agenda of SFW and yet we apply for the tags that he has swindled from our public drawing in the name of conservation.

Do we know if the money they collect actually goes to conservation? If it does, Where?Private land or land leased and managed as CWMU? Does anything they spend on actually benefit the public/average hunter? So why should we continue to apply for these tags and continue to feed the SFW agenda?

Am I the only one that thinks this way? Does anyone out there share my sentiment? I really would like to know. It's not my intention to hijack the thread from Bowdacious but if we answer his question I think we should state why yes and why no. I hope you don't mind Bowdacious.....


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

I went to the meeting were the director of the DWR and Don Peay himself said the money from the expo permits is NOT ear marked for habitat projects. It is to be spent as SFW sees fit. Don Peay of SFW said he would provived an itemized list of where the money is being spent. It's been several months since he said that and still no list and I don't expect one any time soon.


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## Bergy (Apr 3, 2008)

Madhunter, I understand your concerns and happen to agree with you on several points. You say that Don Peay has swindled these permits from the Public draw. I have been under the assumption that these permits come out of the NON resident pool of tags and NOT the resident pool and would affect guys like me that are currently living out of state and not the resident. Anybody know if this is correct?


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm with you MadHunter, we all complain about SFW and Don Peay but most still apply for the tags and attend the Expo. 
I thought about this very thing the last couple of nights and wondered the very same thing you are. Where does the money go? They say it goes to habitat restorations and wildlife preservation programs. But what is there intended goals? I believe there goal is not for quantity but for quality. They want more trophy animals. More big money animals that most of us will never get a chance to hunt. 
I would rather spend my money on a cause that helps premote herd size and health and provides oppirtunities for everyone to hunt rather than a select few rich folks.
SFW Sportman for the Freakin Wealthy!


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

No....I don't believe I will apply for any...


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I will not apply for nay tags there. Thought about doing it this year.But changed my mind later.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bergy said:


> Madhunter, I understand your concerns and happen to agree with you on several points. You say that Don Peay has swindled these permits from the Public draw. I have been under the assumption that these permits come out of the NON resident pool of tags and NOT the resident pool and would affect guys like me that are currently living out of state and not the resident. Anybody know if this is correct?


He's been saying that for YEARS now. YEARS!

-DallanC


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## Stellarmike (Mar 12, 2009)

Is it the hunting expo you are talking about?


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

Liars!!! 
I bet most of you guys that SAY you wont, will the be the first in line. 
I will be applying for all the tags I can afford. Here's a chance to draw a tag without the 20 year wait, and you are saying "NO"??? 

Who cares about SFW? I want to hunt!!! Someone is going to get the tag whether you guys apply or not, so if you can't beat em Join em


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

HJB said:


> Liars!!!
> I bet most of you guys that SAY you wont, will the be the first in line.
> I will be applying for all the tags I can afford. Here's a chance to draw a tag without the 20 year wait, and you are saying "NO"???
> 
> Who cares about SFW? I want to hunt!!! Someone is going to get the tag whether you guys apply or not, so if you can't beat em Join em


I have never applied for any before, but both sides make good arguments. I am irritated with SFW and the tags, but if I don't get one, does that mean someone else won't? No, so by some boycotting, it doesn't solve anything IMO; of course, unless no one applies that would cause some issues.

So side question, does the $5 fee go to SFW or the place in Nevada that does the draws?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

SFW does the draw, otherwise it would be a wash and very pointless. The revenue from these tags is HUGE and the moneys gathered are not restricted by the typical conservation split.

That'd be why it's advertised so heavily.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

HJB said:


> Liars!!!
> I bet most of you guys that SAY you wont, will the be the first in line.
> I will be applying for all the tags I can afford. Here's a chance to draw a tag without the 20 year wait, and you are saying "NO"???
> 
> Who cares about SFW? I want to hunt!!! Someone is going to get the tag whether you guys apply or not, so if you can't beat em Join em


I agree with part of your statement however, I was brought up on standing true to your ideals and principals. It's a tough choice. I am being given a chance to draw a tag of a lifetime at the expense of my posterity possibly not having one. My first grandchild is 7 months old. My wife and daughters will apply and I just have to support them if they draw. The guide will be yours truly.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

HJB said:


> Liars!!!
> I bet most of you guys that SAY you wont, will the be the first in line.
> I will be applying for all the tags I can afford. Here's a chance to draw a tag without the 20 year wait, and you are saying "NO"???
> 
> Who cares about SFW? I want to hunt!!! Someone is going to get the tag whether you guys apply or not, so if you can't beat em Join em


I've spent thousands over the years attempting to draw one of these tags, this actually may be the year I pull out, due to both ideal conflicts and money better spent elsewhere.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

do you get a point if you dont draw ?


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

I'm with HJB on this one. I will be putting into the draw because it gives me a chance to possibly draw a tag that will take me 20 years with the DWR. I see it as MORE opportunity to hunt. I may not draw....but I know for sure I won't draw if I don't apply.

As for where the money goes....I don't know and who cares? I wish it would go into conservation but I know, up front, that SFW is a private organization and what they do with their money is their business. Nobody asks Sportsman's Warehouse or Cabela's what they spend their money on. If the money doesn't go to conservation then I'm never shopping there again. WRONG, it is their money and they can do with it what they want. I see SFW as a big company. It is what it is! Plus, you say the tags are taken from the public...well,* they are going back to the public as well. We all have a chance to apply for a tag resident and non-resident alike. *

If I understand correctly, Drawing a tag with SFW doesn't effect your points with DWR. You can't draw a tag that year with DWR but the following year you are back to the rat race as usual.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

dkhntrdstn said:


> do you get a point if you dont draw ?


No.


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## Andymansavage (Sep 19, 2008)

Look at it like the state does with the Obama stimulus money. Although they may not agree with the principle or process, the money has been allocated and is going to the states. If Utah chooses not to accept the cash it will go to other states for their projects. It is the same with these tags, they have been pulled out of the pool and allocated. So while you are working to change the system, why not try to take advantage of YOUR public resource? The animals are going to be hunted as long as the current process is followed.

The way to truly stick to your guns would be to apply and draw a tag, then shred it....now that's principle....

And yes, I will be there....it's the only way I will be hunting big bulls again for the next 20 years.....all elk app, here I come...


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

I don't like SFW one bit, and I have no repsect for guys like Don. If we could get everyone to boycott the system and not apply for tags, then I would support it. But the truth is it's never going to happen. There will always be thousands of people applying for these tags. It's a chance to hunt trophy animals and not many people are going to pass that up, especially for $5. 
No, I don't like giving my money to SFW. But for a chance to jump the 20 year wait, I will do just about anything. I don't really care what's done with the money, I want a tag for $5 and that's all there is to it.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

HJB said:


> I don't like SFW one bit, and I have no repsect for guys like Don. If we could get everyone to boycott the system and not apply for tags, then I would support it. But the truth is it's never going to happen. There will always be thousands of people applying for these tags. It's a chance to hunt trophy animals and not many people are going to pass that up, especially for $5.
> No, I don't like giving my money to SFW. But for a chance to jump the 20 year wait, I will do just about anything. I don't really care what's done with the money, I want a tag for $5 and that's all there is to it.


It is $5 to apply, then you have to pay the actual price of the tag, correct? I agree with a lot of this statement.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

jahan said:


> HJB said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like SFW one bit, and I have no repsect for guys like Don. If we could get everyone to boycott the system and not apply for tags, then I would support it. But the truth is it's never going to happen. There will always be thousands of people applying for these tags. It's a chance to hunt trophy animals and not many people are going to pass that up, especially for $5.
> ...


Correct....you still have to pay whatever price DWR charges for that species that you draw.


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## Bergy (Apr 3, 2008)

I went to hunt EXPO web page and saw the draw odds. Hope all you guys that put in your hard earned cash are lucky! Most of you should take a look at the odds and then reconsider putting in. .......................................... This will help my odds. :O—–-:


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Bowdacious said:


> I'm with HJB on this one. I will be putting into the draw because it gives me a chance to possibly draw a tag that will take me 20 years with the DWR. I see it as MORE opportunity to hunt. I may not draw....but I know for sure I won't draw if I don't apply.
> 
> As for where the money goes....I don't know and who cares? I wish it would go into conservation but I know, up front, that SFW is a private organization and what they do with their money is their business. Nobody asks Sportsman's Warehouse or Cabela's what they spend their money on. If the money doesn't go to conservation then I'm never shopping there again. WRONG, it is their money and they can do with it what they want. I see SFW as a big company. It is what it is! Plus, you say the tags are taken from the public...well,* they are going back to the public as well. We all have a chance to apply for a tag resident and non-resident alike. *
> 
> If I understand correctly, Drawing a tag with SFW doesn't effect your points with DWR. You can't draw a tag that year with DWR but the following year you are back to the rat race as usual.


Are you kidding me. WTH is the matter with you? By your logic, it would be cool if I went down to the DWR office and some how talked them into giving me 200 PUBLIC tags to kill PUBLIC animals, raffel those tags off and keep the money for myself. Comparing Sportsmenswarehouse & Cabelas to SFW is............sorry, but it's stupid. It's not their money, It's OUR money. SFW is making $$$ of a PUBLIC resource and not telling us what they are spending it on.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

BTW, I'm no fool, as long as SFW has those tags, I'm putting in for them but if the DWR took them back and put them in the regular draw, that would be fine by me.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

blackdog said:


> Bowdacious said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with HJB on this one. I will be putting into the draw because it gives me a chance to possibly draw a tag that will take me 20 years with the DWR. I see it as MORE opportunity to hunt. I may not draw....but I know for sure I won't draw if I don't apply.
> ...


*#1* I think it's funny that you still think it's YOUR money. Once you gave it over to SFW and paid for a service (chance of winning a tag) it is not YOUR money any more but THEIR money. Just like if you buy something at Cabela's or Sports....you bought something so it is no longer YOUR money, it is THEIR money. If you don't want YOUR money to become THEIR money then there is an easy solution.....don't buy what they are offering.

*#2* I think it's funny you consider them PUBLIC tags. I don't consider the tags PUBLIC tags. The animals belong to the state and therefore the tags are STATE tags. If you interpret the state as meaning public....then I guess that is all in how you look at it. I believe the state ALLOWS us to hunt. Being able to hunt is a PRIVELEDGE not a RIGHT (regardless of what some folks may thing), that is given to us by the state. I'm gratefull every day that we have that PRIVELEDGE. It is a PRIVELEDGE because it is something that can be TAKEN away if the STATE so desires. So, I consider the tags state tags and the state does with them as they wish. As far as the state is concerned, they still get their money (you pay the state the regular price for the tag) so the state is happy.

*And #3*, if you could get the state to issue you 200 tags for free....I'd be very jealous and want to know how you pulled it off. However, aren't tags kinda like money in the Federal Reserve. If the state wants to issue more tags...all they have to do is "print more money". In the grand scheme of things, I highly doubt that the number of tags given (spread out among species) do much harm to wildlife management or hunting as a whole. Doesn't the state give land owners tags or depredation tags as they see fit? Which brings me back to #2....the tags are the state's tags and they will do with them as they see fit.

Do I agree with it? NO, but it is what it is...so good luck changin it. I'm not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth. If I have the opportunity to maybe have a chance at hunting on an LE unit or having a OIL tag without having to wait 100 years....count me in. 
o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-|| o-||


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

I was speciffically informed that if you draw a tag at the expo, it in no way deters you from drawing your tag applied for in the regular draw... these are separate tags and do not count for or against the points system. 
That would mean that for roughly $100 per year I could apply for some 75 or so elk tags over the next 8-10 years while waiting to draw one through the system and not have to use my points. That is 600 to 750 chances to draw for about $1000. How many of you guys pay Cabela's tags for application services or Carter's Guide Services and what does that cost you? Or how many buy a license in one of the several surrounding states just so that you can accumulate points there? My father-in-law buys a membership to Carters Huntin Fool for about $100 per year and never applies with them... 
On the other hand, for the $100 or so per year over 8-10 years of not applying at the expo, I would only save a fraction of what it would cost to hunt a CWMU here in UT, but it might buy me a couple out of state tags where I don't have to worry bout some horde of spotters chasing off my intended "public land" elk either...


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

It's all corruption and theivery. SFW is using your/mine/our wildlife to make money and control the wildlife management in Utah. We all fall into their scheme by picking up fallen bread crumbs.

*"Bread and circuses"*
(or bread and games) (from Latin: panem et circenses is a metaphor for a superficial means of appeasement. In the case of politics, the phrase is used to describe the creation of public approval, not through exemplary or excellent public service or public policy, but through the mere satisfaction of the immediate, shallow requirements of a populace. The phrase also implies the erosion or ignorance of civic duty amongst the concerns of the common man (l'homme moyen sensuel).

In modern usage, the phrase has become an adjective to deride a populace that no longer values civic virtues and the public life. To many across the political spectrum, left and right, it connotes the triviality and frivolity that in popular culture is supposed to have characterized the Roman Empire prior to its decline.


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## sharpshooter25 (Oct 2, 2007)

I for one will be applying, simply because why would I want to pass up the opportunty of drawing a tag to have a hunt of a lifetime? And for those of you who say that you are not going to apply based on principal, I believe that a lot of you still will. But for those of you who actually do not based on that, I say thank you as it increases my chances of drawing. And I am also curious if the situation was different, would your reaction be the same? 

For instance, lets say I drew a limited entry tag through the state drawing, but it is a bad year for me and I know I can't go. But, instead of giving the tag back, the state allows me to give the tag to whomever I wanted, as long as they pay the normal price of the tag. And if that tag was offered to you because I knew that you had been wanting to hunt that area for a long time, but had never been given the opportunity, you are telling me that you would turn that tag down due to principal? I would think not. The money that the lucky winners spend on the tags at the expo still goes back to the state because as it was stated before, they are still State tags. It isn't like the SFW purchased the tags from the state and is doing a drawing for them. So for you to say that you are not applying for these tags because it is against your principal, I think that you might be looking at it the wrong way. Just think about it. You have the opportunity to draw for the tag of your dreams, and you are saying no. To each his own. Oh and I forgot, you don't pay the state the $10.00 application fee, you just have to pay me, your buddy, your friend, your father, whomever it is that is close enough to you that would give you that opportunity. I don't think any of you can tell me honestly that you would not take that tag from that person close to you and you just had to pay them the $10.00.


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## tiger (Feb 27, 2009)

Any idea how much money goes to administrative fees like Don's pay checK?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

We don't know because they are not subject to transparency. They are not even subject to being accountable for how they spend money they make from PUBLIC TAGS.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

Bow, let me try and explain a couple things for you. First off, the Wildlife Board sets the number of tags to be given out. That's it, that's the number of tags to be given out and no more. So right off the bat, SFW gets 200+ of them and the rest go into the public drawing that you and I put in for. The DWR DOES NOT just go and print off 200 extra tags to give to SFW. So by SFW getting those tags, that's 200+ tags that are NOT available for you and I in the public draw. You following me?

BTW, the government doesn't just go and print off money when ever they need some either. What happened, did you sleep your way through your high school economics class.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

Yeah, the government does just go and print out money whenever they need it.....where have you been the last 2 years? I still think that 200 tags could be printed out and not be included in the set amount that the general public knows about. 

But, let's say that those 200 tags come off the top automatically like you are saying....aren't they going right back to the public anyway? So, if you apply for those tags you aren't really out anything extra except for the money you chose to give to SFW for being a part of the draw....which was YOUR choice to begin with. Plus, the SFW draw is still a public draw, available to everyone and anyone res and non res alike. So, the tags that were taken out of the public draw are given back to the public in a different drawing where your odds are actually better then your odds in the DWR draw.

So, what the he!! is the big deal?


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## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

tiger said:


> Any idea how much money goes to administrative fees like Don's pay checK?


I thought the SFW was nonprofit, so I would say "fund raising" events like the expo pay all of Don salary.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I like SFW........Dont like whiner cry babies that will bite the hand that feeds them.


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## DBCooper (Jun 17, 2008)

blackdog said:


> BTW, the government doesn't just go and print off money when ever they need some either. What happened, did you sleep your way through your high school economics class.


Are you serious? The printing presses are always running.

Since you seem to have a gift in economics, if you don't mind, maybe you could explain to us economic illiterates how our government finances it's debt. And maybe just for fun you could include the topic of inflation and where it comes from. And maybe for some real teaching moments you could explain to us how a "greenback" gets its value. I'll be waiting...


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

DBCooper said:


> blackdog said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, the government doesn't just go and print off money when ever they need some either. What happened, did you sleep your way through your high school economics class.
> ...


Which leads me to ask......Where the he11 have you been the last two years?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

TopofUtahArcher said:


> I was speciffically informed that if you draw a tag at the expo, it in no way deters you from drawing your tag applied for in the regular draw... these are separate tags and do not count for or against the points system.


This is correct but remember you can't keep both tags. If you draw an expo tag AND a state draw tag you must pick one and surrender the other. Then go to Wendover and bet some serious cash because you are in the zone!


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## CP1 (Oct 1, 2007)

I personally do not support the Expo or the agendas of SFW, therefore I will not be applying for tags, going to the Expo, or renewing my SFW memberships. The amount of money I have spent on these things in the past will more than enough pay for me to go Whitetails every year in my favorite spot!!!! 

Regretfully a former SFW supporter..........


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

You guys still don't get that the point of boicotting is not the number of tags or if the public gets a shot at them.

SFW is using state/public wildlife to *make money for themselves* and have no accountability for what hey do with it.

Private or not all organizations that have some kind of government charter, contract etc. are subject to disclosure as to how money is managed. Health facilities in the state provide services to patients that are wards of the state and they are accountable for to the state for how they spend on treatment, facilities, medication, etc.

How is it that SFW makes money of of state property and is not subject to any accountability to the very wildlife they make money off of. If they spend on conservation it is on private land held in trusts and with endowments. Conservation money that come out of state wildlife should go to public lands.

It's very simple, we are getting robbed and appeased with a few table scraps called expo tags. If the state did not give the tags to SFW they would still go in the public pool and they would still make money for the state. It's just one more layer of politics and corruption.


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## deerlove (Oct 20, 2010)

Now they want us to join there NEW program big game forever and donate to fight the wolves. THEY NEED TO DONATE the $$$$ from the expo for the wolve cause and see how much MORE $ is raised. How did the DWR get into this mess? Giving away 200 tags for nothing?? What a crock!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Guys I'm really just getting aquainted with the SFW so I am looking at this whole thing from the perspective of someone who knows very little about these guys. I did a quick search and found their website. I found very quickly two things.

1 - 2008 statement of expense activities. According to this they spent 83% of the thier income on "mission accomplishment", 11% on fundraising, and 6% on asministration fees.

2 - They state this: "SFW is a charitable non-profit conservation wildlife organization. The mission of SFW is to promote the protection and enhancement of wildlife habitat, assist in providing quality wildlife management programs, educating the public about the role hunters play in wildlife conservation, and perpetuating the family tradition of hunting and fishing."

Just asking the question because I am not familiar with these folks so don't BBQ me but could someone summarize what it is that is so wrong with this organization?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

WOW!! don't even know were to start....

Even though I'm not a member, I don't dis like SFW as much as most on here do..

The fact is SFW has raised millions of dollars for Utah habitat projects and
they are VERY ,VERY , influential on how and what happens on management plans..
Some claim Don Peay runs the DWR,,,,,,,,,,But I don't buy that one..


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## deerlove (Oct 20, 2010)

There's no dislike, but how do you get a public resorce and SELL it and give nothing in return??


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

deerlove said:


> There's no dislike, but how do you get a public resorce and SELL it and give nothing in return??


I want to remain non-biased until I get enough information to form my own opinion...but...it seems like the money they raise from these expos and drawings seem to go to things like habitat restoration that directly benefit Utah wildlife. Is it possible that some Utah expo dollars may go to a Wyoming project? Perhaps but it would seem the reverse would also be true. Again I want more information before forming an opinion and I don't want to sound like I'm taking up for them but on the surface it would seem that if someone is concerned about every cent gained from the expo going to Utah wildife they are cutting off their nose to spite thier face. In other words it's like saying if you are aren't going to spend 100% of the proceeds to help my wildlife I don't want any help at all and I think we need all the help we can get right now.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the link to the conservation permit program from the DWR.....
SFW gets the "lions share" of these to sell....

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggam ... rogram.pdf

There is a break down of were all the money raised from 2001 thru 2006 went..


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

goofy elk said:


> Here's the link to the conservation permit program from the DWR.....
> SFW gets the "lions share" of these to sell....
> 
> http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggam ... rogram.pdf
> ...


Good info. That dispells a few rumors.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

Bowdacious said:


> I'm with HJB on this one. I will be putting into the draw because it gives me a chance to possibly draw a tag that will take me 20 years with the DWR. I see it as MORE opportunity to hunt. I may not draw....but I know for sure I won't draw if I don't apply.
> 
> As for where the money goes....I don't know and who cares? I wish it would go into conservation but I know, up front, that SFW is a private organization and what they do with their money is their business. Nobody asks Sportsman's Warehouse or Cabela's what they spend their money on. If the money doesn't go to conservation then I'm never shopping there again. WRONG, it is their money and they can do with it what they want. I see SFW as a big company. It is what it is! Plus, you say the tags are taken from the public...well,* they are going back to the public as well. We all have a chance to apply for a tag resident and non-resident alike. *
> 
> If I understand correctly, Drawing a tag with SFW doesn't effect your points with DWR. You can't draw a tag that year with DWR but the following year you are back to the rat race as usual.


I think the problem here, and the reason that we don't boycott sportsmans warehouse and cabela's is that the folks at those two stores BUY their wares from the manufacturer. Conversely, SFW is given tags, that are pulled from programs that are completely funded by hunters. The issue is that SFW will pocket thousands of dollars for every one of these tags that in all reality should be in the public drawing. The other issue is that they lottery these tags under the guise that the money goes to fund wildlife and habitat projects, when in actuality it goes to further SFW's agenda of restricting hunting for average hunters, and puts the emphasis on trophy hunting and creating more opportunity for folks like Doyle Moss.

Lastly, there a LOT of skepticism about the legitimacy of these draws, because the higher ups of SFW somehow manage to "draw" every year for premium and once in a lifetime tags. If any of you actually think that ol Don Peay waits in line with the rest of us for a tag, you're kidding yourselves. I'm dead sure he gets the pick of whatever of the 200 tags he wants, and then his group uses our money to lobby against our opportunity.

That being said, unless there is a widespread boycott, your principles are the only thing that stands to gain from not putting in. For some of us that's enough. For others, (especially those just starting to build points) they realize that they probably won't ever draw a decent tag in their lifetime, so this is another opportunity to just maybe get an opportunity.

I'm not going to judge anyone for whatever their decision is. But I do know that if for some reason when I die, I go to hell, i fully expect to see ol' Don Peay down there too...


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Alright fellas let me give this a go.

Conservation and Convention tags are two different animals all together. The rules for a Conservation tag are 90% to the DWR 10% to the selling ORG. Keep in mind that these ORG's can legally keep ALL this money in an account till the last minute drawing interest that they are keeping as well. Accounting for this is pretty transparent.

Convention Tags have absolutely none of this. These groups are not bound to give one freaking penny back to wildlife. They could use every penny to pay rent at the Salt Palace
or any "Administrative" costs for the Expo.

Two years ago I was challenged by a friend to file a GRAMA request with the DWR to see where this money was going. I was told by a DWR Official when I filed the request that I was wasting my time because an audit had never been done and the DWR had no idea where any of the money went.

NON Profit ORG's. fall in to a couple different categories as well. A 501 (c) 3 has a very hard time legally being involved in any type of lobbying. SFW a 501 (c) 7 ORG can legally do this. You'll see what is called SFH which I understand is a legit 501 (c) 3 being awarded these tags.

*I know of one Bowhunting ORG. that was awarded permits illegally because of their 501 status.*

Keep an eye on this, ask questions and demand to know where YOUR money is going


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

CP1 said:


> I personally do not support the Expo or the agendas of SFW, therefore I will not be applying for tags, going to the Expo, or renewing my SFW memberships. The amount of money I have spent on these things in the past will more than enough pay for me to go Whitetails every year in my favorite spot!!!!
> 
> Regretfully a former SFW supporter..........


A-FREAKING-MEN!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> Guys I'm really just getting aquainted with the SFW so I am looking at this whole thing from the perspective of someone who knows very little about these guys. I did a quick search and found their website. I found very quickly two things.
> 
> 1 - 2008 statement of expense activities. According to this they spent 83% of the thier income on "mission accomplishment", 11% on fundraising, and 6% on asministration fees.
> 
> ...


Speaking as one who once was a kool-aid drinker at the SFW trough: 
1)I have no problem with how they spend their funds, but I DO have problems with where/how they obtain their funds. Pimping permits to the highest bidder leads to all kinds of policies/practices geared toward obtaining funds and NOT on the welfare of the game.

2) I agree with SFW's mission statement, but I have major heartburn on how they do NOT follow it. Tell me, how does advocating breaking deer units into smaller units with fewer tags "perpetuate" the family tradition of hunting? Decreasing the odds of father/son, father/daughter, brothers, cousins, obtaining permits in the SAME area in the same year "perpetuates" family traditions of hunting TOGETHER how?

What I find 'wrong' with SFW and 99.999999% of all special interest groups is that they look out for their special interests first (which is more funds in the coffers) and the interests of game/fish as an after thought.

wileywapati mentioned an unnamed bowhunting org that obtained their first two conservation permits without having 501(3)c status first. While there is some gray areas on this, I can say I was a major player in this organization obtaining those, and future permits, without being involved in the tax status of the org. I can regrettably state, IMHO, that this was a HORRIBLE mistake for this group. It has lead it down a path I want NOTHING to do with. Instead of fighting for ALL bow hunters, and fighting for the game animals, they side with other special interest groups to get more permits and more funds from the permits. This changed how I view game management and how I view the "system", and the "system" is corrupt and is NOT looking out for the welfare of the game and NOT looking out for "perpetuating family traditions"!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

DBCooper said:


> blackdog said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, the government doesn't just go and print off money when ever they need some either. What happened, did you sleep your way through your high school economics class.
> ...


I could, and would LOVE to, but that would get this thread locked. 8)

I will just say that technically the government does NOT just print money. I would be glad to discuss this topic over at: http://www.politicalnecrosis.com/forum.htm o-||


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

This is what the founder of SFW posted on another hunting site that says all that needs to be said about how SFW views hunting in Utah: http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/D ... 746.html#3



> Perhaps our hunting "model" is all wrong. States maximise selling the number of permits to make the most money, and then hope hunters are NOT sucessful.
> 
> How many car dealers would get away with that, sell all the cars you can, make them cheap, then expect your customers to be happy that 34% of them work ?
> 
> ...


How can ANYONE defend such a mindset? This is from Don Peay, the most influential person in Utah game management. WTF!!!!! :evil:


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

His vision of hunting is one we surely do not share.

His analogy with car dealers is erroneous and stupid at best. When we purchase a car we expect 100% certainty that the car will work and so do the dealers, which is why they offer a warranty. When it comes to hunting, we *TRUE* hunters expect a huge amount of uncertainty. That is the trill and the essence of hunting. It's us against beast and no guarantees of any kind that we will be successful.

Don't think for one moment that Don Peay doesn't get it. Oh he gets it alright. It's just not what he envisions for hunting in Utah. He doesn't share the same family experiences that we shared with our elders and want to share with our posterity.

He has a vision and he will stop at nothing to impose it on everyone. The greatest part of it is that he knows how to sell it and so far he is doing an amazing job at it because everyone is buying it.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

100% success rate is rediculous! What the he!! is he thinking? It would change the whole name of the game from "hunting" to "harvesting" and might as well be considered a "canned hunt". If I want a 100% success rate I will just go hunt a high fence ranch...which would cost me a lot of money, oh wait......that's what he wants. I get it...too bad the majority doesn't. 

I like the anticipation of the hunt...the uncertainty of it...the hard work and dedication. 

Hunting is the only LEGAL gambling in Utah!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Bowdacious said:


> 100% success rate is rediculous! What the he!! is he thinking? It would change the whole name of the game from "hunting" to "harvesting" and might as well be considered a "canned hunt". If I want a 100% success rate I will just go hunt a high fence ranch...which would cost me a lot of money, oh wait......that's what he wants. I get it...too bad the majority doesn't.
> 
> I like the anticipation of the hunt...the uncertainty of it...the hard work and dedication.
> 
> Hunting is the only LEGAL gambling in Utah!


I was with you until the last sentence. Anyone who has a 401k/IRA are gambling, and mostly LOSING.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Bowdacious said:
> 
> 
> > 100% success rate is rediculous! What the he!! is he thinking? It would change the whole name of the game from "hunting" to "harvesting" and might as well be considered a "canned hunt". If I want a 100% success rate I will just go hunt a high fence ranch...which would cost me a lot of money, oh wait......that's what he wants. I get it...too bad the majority doesn't.
> ...


True...I forget about all of that bull crap....easy to forget about when you don't have an IRA or 401k.

Ok, hunting is one of the few LEGAL gambling activities in Utah.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

proutdoors said:


> This is what the founder of SFW posted on another hunting site that says all that needs to be said about how SFW views hunting in Utah: http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/D ... 746.html#3
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read that some time back. Just so we are talking apples to apples he was talking about LE hunts right? If they felt that way about general hunts we would certainly be in serious trouble.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > This is what the founder of SFW posted on another hunting site that says all that needs to be said about how SFW views hunting in Utah: http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/D ... 746.html#3
> ...


Since he made reference to 33% success rates, I don't see how he is talking just about LE hunts, since LE hunts enjoy well over that EVERY year. Just for gits and tiggles, lets pretend he was talking LE hunts, do we really think we should be managing LE hunts for 100% SUCCESS? Is that consistent with Fair Chase?


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

Not only is it not consistent with fair chase but it is completely and totally impossible. 


Unless of course they put high fences around LE unit boundaries. Then it just turns into a high fenced, not fair chase, canned hunt which is bad for the average hunter and only exists to bring in big bucks which is exactly what he has in mind. 

No AVERAGE, self respecting hunter is going to want to drive around in the back of a pick-up truck and shoot animals based on their tag number or Dollar sign and be happy about it. If this is the mentality Don has then he needs to get into the private ranch hunting business and leave the average guy alone. 

I'm still going to apply for a tag at the expo though.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Pro - I reposnded to this in another thread.


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