# Anti-Utah Companies?



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

When do we declare a company as anti-Utah, and then respond accordingly by boycotting them the way they are trying to negatively impact us? 









Companies threaten boycott if Outdoor Retailer Show returns to SLC


More than two dozen companies affiliated with the outdoor industry have threatened to boycott the Outdoor Retailer trade show if it moves back to Salt Lake City. Those companies, including big names like Patagonia, REI Co-op, and The North Face have joined with The Conservation Alliance to...




kutv.com





I've long been on the "Patagonia sucks" bandwagon, but stuff like this makes it hard for me to ever buy from REI again. I get their position on public lands, but this position of influencing the show impacts Utah generally, so should we care?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Oh come on you can't even boycott the SFW cluster. LOL

But no why should we "care" if they don't want to go to a convention in Utah? Because that is what they are saying. Not that they don't like Utah. OR is struggling to remain a needed venue no matter where it is held. There are a lot of vendors that don't see any value in attending the show. In reality the small vendors have much more to lose than big ones. Big vendors like Patagonia already have well established distribution and are not really actively trying to expand there retail base.

REI is a retailer that actively sources and deals directly with manufacturers and distributors and certainly has no need to participate in ORS except for fun.

Everybody is free to decide for themselves what and who they will buy from but at a certain point it is hard to find any company that doesn't offend on some level.


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## MuleDeer123 (Dec 20, 2021)

It's not Patagonia or REI that sucks, it's Utah's public land policy and the political discourse around them in state. Why should they be pro Utah? Utah is adamantly anti-public lands?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I'm going to steal Random elks thought about the recently concluded wildlife convention and see if it shows a pattern.



RandomElk16 said:


> It's very disappointing. I know exactly what optics I like and starting 3-4 years ago they threw expo deals out the window. Most of the participants there have settled in and are complacent. They just renew their booth and nothing new comes in. When they extended the hall and maxed out booths, it felt like competition went down. I suppose that isn't the point of these shows but a lot of the new companies - or small ones that actually care about sportsmen still - can't secure a booth and even if they could, can't afford it.
> 
> Don't get me started with outfitters (most the booths). I guess a fishing trip to Alaska sells itself but these people just don't give a s***. Not kind unless you whip out the measuring stick of a wallet. The price influxes in hunting are showing demand > supply and that's hurt us. Luckily the division allows groups like SFW to take advantage of that and gives them tags.
> 
> Better stop this train that I have running off the tracks. Our favorite industry sucks lol.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

middlefork said:


> Oh come on you can't even boycott the SFW cluster. LOL


I apply for tags, yes, but I’ve never paid to get into the expo. Does that count?

And SFW, while not agreeing with their methods or mission on certain things, do work hard to improve certain things and make some things better for Utah hunters. Tell me one good thing Patagonia has ever done for Utah, let alone continues to do for Utah.

These two things are not similar, let alone the same. But I’ll admit, the statement did make me chuckle. It was well played.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I'll bite on this while I watch the Jazz game. (There is a lot to unpack on this.)

First, Nilla, I know your record is such that you favor public land policy, so we don't have to rehash any of that.

My first thought on this is if you wish to boycott Patagonia for no other reason than Choinard is a self righteous adzhat, I would see no problem with that. The same could apply to these other companies. However, if I evaluate the action in general, I can see where they are coming from. In reading the statement itself, it is not wrong. Utah's politicians *have *opposed public lands and protections of them. (The monuments are a separate issue I won't dig in to). The fact that their complaints are factually reasonable make it hard for me to get mad about the action itself.

Next, from a business standpoint, their industry profits from widespread availability of public lands. Their stance makes economic sense. It also is a popular stance with the majority of their base. I fail to see any downside to their actions.

Finally, the actions of our politicians have had consequences. I know a lot of scoffers on UWN said the state wouldn't miss the outdoor retailers when they left, but our states actions sure would suggest otherwise. I hope our leaders begin to see that all the anti lands rhetoric and scheming comes at a price. Say hypothetically I as an "outdoor influencer" based on my 34 UWN likes in 4000+ posts, lead a successful boycott against Patty's that causes effects. Wouldn't that send the wrong message to the politicians I disagree with?


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

i don't think patagonia is anti utah, they just like desecrating our monuments. they are anti a lot of other stuff though.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

APD said:


> i don't think patagonia is anti utah, they just like desecrating our monuments. they are anti a lot of other stuff though.


If I remember right, they were upset by our push to reduce monument sizes.

I have to laugh at companies that do this mainly because people lose their mind and start destroying the items they bought from said company. That company doesn’t care, they’ve already got your money.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Catherder, the thing that bothers me the most is these clowns still come to Utah to enjoy everything it has to offer. So Utah politicians are anti-monument. Has it closed a single acre of public lands for them to come and enjoy? The answer to that is no.

Getting the show moved from Utah has hurt Utah. We are certainly surviving and doing well, but there was a negative impact. Keeping the show from Utah will continue that negative impact, all the while they come and enjoy what we have to offer them. Eventually we have to wise up and quit supporting companies willfully trying to harm our state, right?

I think so, at least. Others can certainly disagree. Most of these companies I wrote off long ago. The REI one is more difficult. I guess I’ll find out how principled I am.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Stupid Jazz.  

A couple more comments before calling it a night. 



Bax* said:


> If I remember right, they were upset by our push to reduce monument sizes.


As the retailer statements indicate, it is for both Utah's monument stance and ongoing TPL position. 



Vanilla said:


> Eventually we have to wise up and quit supporting companies willfully trying to harm our state, right?


I guess the nuanced part of this is who is ultimately harming the state? If the retailers are only reacting to the politicians position, is it the retailers or politicians fault for the action? Where does the buck stop? Also, if such consequences cause a reasonable pol like Cox (who I like) to think twice before pounding the TPL drum as his predecessors have, is that a bad thing? Not saying I have the answers but it is food for thought. 

In any event, I'm probably not the one to yammer about this anyway. I don't have the $$$ or desire to buy their expensive stuff regardless of their political stance.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> . Tell me one good thing Patagonia has ever done for Utah, let alone continues to do for Utah.


They provided much needed financial, in kind donations, and corporate credibility in the early years of USAC. BG was key to get Patagonia on board.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Daisy said:


> They provided much needed financial, in kind donations, and corporate credibility in the early years of USAC. BG was key to get Patagonia on board.


I hate that you are right about this!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

I got Patagonia 2 shirts and a jacket for my BD. Good stuff, good company. Started by Chouinard, a climber, just as REI was started by outdoor enthusiasts. Ordered my new canoe from REI and will pick it up next week. Really cool, made with T Formex, the newly developed Royalex replacement. Esquif Adirondack, 12', 42#, better for duck hunting. Been an REI member since ~1974. I support companies who are environmentally aware. They support our public lands far more than the f....... legislature.


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## Hill Hunter (Dec 1, 2017)

These companies are not Anti-Utah. They are trying to defend our public lands, and yes, it is because it ultimately impacts their bottom line as companies that sell outdoor recreation equipment. But when their goals align with my values of maintaining access to public lands, I will support them in those efforts.

It goes a lot deeper than the noise over the monuments. Our legislature and congressional delegates have been leaders, and still are leaders in chipping away at public land with the ultimate goal of privatizing much of the federal land in the state. Just because they have not yet been successful at a large scale doesn't mean they shouldn't be opposed in efforts to privatize public lands.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Our legisture is .............................realtors and developers. Our population isn't 20% realtors and developers..................................................... .............................. Which explains all the right wing BS that rolls down from the capitol every year. Like the inland port, the prison, Utah Lake, public lands, etc. Utah would be better off if our our legislature and statewide politicians looked more like our population ......................................................


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## MuleDeer123 (Dec 20, 2021)

Vanilla said:


> Catherder, the thing that bothers me the most is these clowns still come to Utah to enjoy everything it has to offer. So Utah politicians are anti-monument. Has it closed a single acre of public lands for them to come and enjoy? The answer to that is no.
> 
> Getting the show moved from Utah has hurt Utah. We are certainly surviving and doing well, but there was a negative impact. Keeping the show from Utah will continue that negative impact, all the while they come and enjoy what we have to offer them. Eventually we have to wise up and quit supporting companies willfully trying to harm our state, right?
> 
> I think so, at least. Others can certainly disagree. Most of these companies I wrote off long ago. The REI one is more difficult. I guess I’ll find out how principled I am.


You sure let the politicians in the state off the hook for being entirely anti-public land. Blame those companies and Outdoor Retailer, but it is Utah's actions that caused it.


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## MuleDeer123 (Dec 20, 2021)

Catherder said:


> Stupid Jazz.
> 
> A couple more comments before calling it a night.
> 
> ...


Cox hasn't pounded the "transfer" drum nearly as hard, nor has the state. The companies should use their leverage against what is asinine public land policy and stances that the state and its politicians hold.


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## MuleDeer123 (Dec 20, 2021)

paddler said:


> I got Patagonia 2 shirts and a jacket for my BD. Good stuff, good company. Started by Chouinard, a climber, just as REI was started by outdoor enthusiasts. Ordered my new canoe from REI and will pick it up next week. Really cool, made with T Formex, the newly developed Royalex replacement. Esquif Adirondack, 12', 42#, better for duck hunting. Been an REI member since ~1974. I support companies who are environmentally aware. They support our public lands far more than the f*cking legislature.


Patagonia's founder Yvon Chouinard actually attended the BHA event a few years back, and advocated for hunters and recreational outdoors folks to fight this war together. I don't know why anyone would look at our legislature and think that siding with them on public lands is ever the right call.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

MuleDeer123 said:


> Cox hasn't pounded the "transfer" drum nearly as hard, nor has the state.


I agree that Cox hasn't so far. However, our national congressional delegation has been spouting the same old-same old IMO. At least Bishop retired.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MuleDeer123 said:


> You sure let the politicians in the state off the hook for being entirely anti-public land. Blame those companies and Outdoor Retailer, but it is Utah's actions that caused it.


Nah, I haven't let anyone off the hook. This article I shared is about companies that are willfully trying to harm Utah's economy while at the same time still coming here to enjoy what we can offer them. If you want to have a discussion about the politicians of this state and their stance on public lands, start the thread. I'll share my thoughts there too. I've fought against those people too more than most. 

It's also good to see paddler is biased against members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Not shocking. Bigotry comes in all shapes and sizes, I guess.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Nah, I haven't let anyone off the hook. This article I shared is about companies that are willfully trying to harm Utah's economy while at the same time still coming here to enjoy what we can offer them. If you want to have a discussion about the politicians of this state and their stance on public lands, start the thread. I'll share my thoughts there too. I've fought against those people too more than most.
> 
> It's also good to see paddler is biased against members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Not shocking. Bigotry comes in all shapes and sizes, I guess.


Say what? You can read, right? I merely suggested that our political leaders should look like the population if they really want to represent all of Utah. What's so wrong about that?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla,

It's different for everyone, right? Sounds like it makes sense for you and your values already. 

I stopped participating in most consumer boycotts a while ago. It would take something pretty egregious for me to change what I buy. For example, I am boycotting the Olympics because, well, genocide sucks and I don't believe it should be tolerated nonetheless rewarded.

Best of luck finding your right balance. Everyone has the privilege to use their leverage the best way they see fit. Some companies are using the tax dollars they stimulate to try to change local politics. People can respond in kind. At the end of the day people will still travel to Utah and spend their money locally.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I can read. That is why this little "What? What did I do?" spiel doesn't work. You're a hateful dude. Always have been. We need less people like you around and more people that don't base their opinions on people based upon what church they attend on Sunday, what letter is next to someone's name on a voter registration card, their gender, or the color of their skin. Like I said, bigotry comes in all shapes and sizes. If the shoe fits, wear it Jon!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

backcountry said:


> Vanilla,
> 
> It's different for everyone, right? Sounds like it makes sense for you and your values already.
> 
> ...


We're boycotting the Olympics as well. We watched Madison Chock because she's the daughter of one of my old High School classmates. But that's about it. Initially because of the human rights abuses, ie, the uyghers. But now with the doping scandal, we're done. A 15 yo ice skater can't stay out of grandpa's meds? Inconceivable.



Vanilla said:


> I can read. That is why this little "What? What did I do?" spiel doesn't work. You're a hateful dude. Always have been. We need less people like you around and more people that don't base their opinions on people based upon what church they attend on Sunday, what letter is next to someone's name on a voter registration card, their gender, or the color of their skin. Like I said, bigotry comes in all shapes and sizes. If the shoe fits, wear it Jon!


You sound upset, but your vitriol doesn't obscure that fact that you didn't answer the question. As always.


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## MuleDeer123 (Dec 20, 2021)

Vanilla said:


> Nah, I haven't let anyone off the hook. This article I shared is about companies that are willfully trying to harm Utah's economy while at the same time still coming here to enjoy what we can offer them. If you want to have a discussion about the politicians of this state and their stance on public lands, start the thread. I'll share my thoughts there too. I've fought against those people too more than most.
> 
> It's also good to see paddler is biased against members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Not shocking. Bigotry comes in all shapes and sizes, I guess.


They are the same conversation in this instance. Their constant public land attacks are why these companies don't want anything to do with the state. This state has amazing public lands that get taken for granted and under-appreciated by the politicians here.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MuleDeer123 said:


> Their constant public land attacks are why these companies don't want anything to do with the state.


They actually want everything to do with the state. They are here recreating all over the place, selling their gear here and making money. They just don’t want the state to get a benefit as well due to politics. There are no victims here. Well, except us people who keep getting exploited by all involved.

Utah’s legislature has a prior record of very poor performance on public land issues. I’ve had a front row seat for much of that. But this “constant public land attacks” narrative is off and a bit dramatic. I happen to really like they’re finally investing in working to protect the GSL this year. I’m a big fan of the constitutional amendment they put forward that guarantees our rights to hunt and fish in this state.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

And if OR decides not to consider SLC because of past performance and current actions don't sway the decision so what? The governor stated we have already replaced the revenue that was lost when they moved to Denver.

The state of Utah still collects taxes for Patagucci sold by retailers in Utah and (ahem) on line. And REI has a physical presence which pays both property and sales taxes. And if you were totally honest you would realize that pretty much every piece of outdoor clothing and equipment is associated with OR companies. There are actually a lot of Utah based companies associated with OR who would like to see it back if nothing else for convivence. But the powers to be found a nice little talking point to sway the decisions.

There is no doubt that Utah government rhetoric has been anti public lands in the past and remains to be seen if the current change actually lasts. And it certainly wouldn't hurt if the privatize public lands plank was removed from a certain party's agenda.

I'm not sure how anybody is getting exploited here but I'm sure you will explain.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Bummer. Another convention that is not convinced "This is the place". No disrespect intended.









Milwaukee 'frontrunner' over Salt Lake City for '24 GOP convention, report says


A new report claims Milwaukee, not Salt Lake City, is considered to be the frontrunner to land the 2024 Republican National Convention.




www.fox13now.com


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

middlefork said:


> Bummer. Another convention that is not convinced "This is the place". No disrespect intended.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, maybe the "D"s will come here!...........,uh wait........................nevermind. 



I'm surprised nobody brought up todays presser from the guv. There are a few things to dissect there if you want to. 









Utah Gov. Spencer Cox on Outdoor Retailer: “We didn’t miss them” but “we desperately want them to come back”


Utah Gov. Spencer Cox sent some decidedly mixed signals Thursday concerning his feelings about the potential return of the lucrative Outdoor Retailer trade shows to Salt Lake City after the event owner moved the shows to Denver five years ago amid swirling controversy over federal land use issues.




www.deseret.com













As Outdoor Retailer show weighs return to Utah, Cox says 'we didn't miss them'


Gov. Spencer Cox had some fiery words Thursday about the Outdoor Retailer trade show and a threatened boycott from some companies if the show moves back to Salt Lake City. “That threat of a boycott will do absolutely nothing to change any policy that’s happening here in the state of Utah,” Cox...




kutv.com


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

middlefork, if I was totally honest I would realize it is not all of the membership of OR is threatening to boycott the show if it returns to Utah, but just these few companies. Wait…I do realize that!

I’m simply asking a question if anyone else feels inclined to not give their business to companies purposefully attempting to harm me and my state. Feel free to spend your money however you choose.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Bax* said:


> If I remember right, they were upset by our push to reduce monument sizes.
> 
> I have to laugh at companies that do this mainly because people lose their mind and start destroying the items they bought from said company. That company doesn’t care, they’ve already got your money.


I was referencing their "athlete" putting rope marks on delicate arch. They didn't seem too broken up about it yet anytime their delicate senses are offended they sure let it be known.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Wow, I was going to jump in and give my remarks, but, it's a little late and many have been addressed. 

I know the retailers show brings in a large amount of money to the state, in sales tax revenue and the local eateries, bars, hotels, etc. I for one, cant afford to purchase the high dollar products many of these companies offer. I don't shop at REI and wont pay a weeks wages for a coat just to be "cool like the other kids". 

I'd like to see it come back to Utah just for the simple reason of helping out the local business. Tourism is a HUGE boost for the economy in Utah. Without snow to ski on, we "could" be taxed a lot more.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Vanilla, your persecution complex is getting a little tired. Questioning and challenging something doesn't equate to bigotry, bias, hate, or whatever else you always call it. As the state becomes increasingly non-LDS (calm down, I didn't say anti-LDS) there is going to be a lot less going along with the old ways.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Vanilla, your persecution complex is getting a little tired. Questioning and challenging something doesn't equate to bigotry, bias, hate, or whatever else you always call it.


You are 100% correct, until you aren’t. Context and who does these things matters when making that analysis. Especially when you’ve got 15 years of data to go off. I’m very comfortable with my comment, and am certain of the character of the analyzed.  Thank you for the opinion though.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> You are 100% correct, until you aren’t. Context and who does these things matters when making that analysis. Especially when you’ve got 15 years of data to go off. I’m very comfortable with my comment, and am certain of the character of the analyzed.  Thank you for the opinion though.


Okay, but before you go off on calling others miserable people just keep in mind who had an offer to be placed in a rear naked choke in another thread while other people expressed fondness over the idea. There's always room for self reflection, Broseph.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Okay, but before you go off on calling others miserable people just keep in mind who had an offer to be placed in a rear naked choke in another thread while other people expressed fondness over the idea. There's always room for self reflection, Broseph.


V's just sore because I call him out on his dishonesty and ask him uncomfortable questions. Thinks he's clever. Won't answer straightforward questions. It has always been so, pay him no mind. Pusillanimous pigeon droppings.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Enough with the personal insults and attacks.

If you can’t add anything to a thread, or the forum, without the constant degrading comments please refrain from posting.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Okay, but before you go off on calling others miserable people just keep in mind who had an offer to be placed in a rear naked choke in another thread while other people expressed fondness over the idea. There's always room for self reflection, Broseph.


I offered to meet Ray and even buy his lunch. I’ll make the same offer to you. I’ve eaten at the same table with Jon. Won’t do that again.

So do you have an opinion on what these companies are doing? Or just here to express your most tender feelings?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

APD said:


> I was referencing their "athlete" putting rope marks on delicate arch. They didn't seem too broken up about it yet anytime their delicate senses are offended they sure let it be known.


Was there a recent incident? I've been out of the loop recently.

Or are we talking about the Dean Potter incident from years ago? If so, he was heavily sanctioned* by multiple companies. And Patagonia was one of them as he, and his wife, were dismissed as ambassadors a year later (very big financial hit for them). That was an unsubtle statement by the industry. And rightfully so. I lived in Moab then and the series of events that happened around then were highly visible and egregious. 

*Dean Potter continued to behave in problematic ways to such an extent that he was regularly in the cross hairs of the companies he represented until his predictable death. He was a controversial figure within the outdoor community as he often behaved in reckless and selfish ways.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> I offered to meet Ray and even buy his lunch. I’ll make the same offer to you. I’ve eaten at the same table with Jon. Won’t do that again.
> 
> So do you have an opinion on what these companies are doing? Or just here to express your most tender feelings?


I would rather set myself on fire than meet up with you, but if you ever take Ray up on his offer for open mat night, let me know and I will come watch.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Too funny! Self-immolation seems a bit drastic, though. 

I guess I missed the mat invite. Where was that?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I would rather set myself on fire than meet up with you, but if you ever take Ray up on his offer for open mat night, let me know and I will come watch.


Prove it!


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Man, I think we need a group hug around here. 

I would go to dinner with all of you, especially if you were buying.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Prove it!


If you can be nice, I might consider lunch sometime. But one cross or pusillanimous word and I will self immolate. Thanks, Paddler, my vocabulary just got a little bigger!


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Catherder said:


> Man, I think we need a group hug around here.
> 
> I would go to dinner with all of you, especially if you were buying.


Do you perchance like cheddarwursts, mountain dew, and doritos dynamitos? If so, you are in for a treat!


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Do you perchance like cheddarwursts, mountain dew, and doritos dynamitos? If so, you are in for a treat!


No on the cheddarwursts, yes on the other 2. We still good! (although I may substitute DP for the Mtn Dew)


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Catherder said:


> No on the cheddarwursts, yes on the other 2. We still good! (although I may substitute DP for the Mtn Dew)


DP is good too. You're just gonna want something cold to knock the heat down on those Doritos Dynamitos.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> DP is good too. You're just gonna want something cold to knock the heat down on those Doritos Dynamitos.


What's wrong with PBR?









A little beer will put out that fire.


The Simpsons (1989) - S03E14 Comedy clip with quote A little beer will put out that fire. Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote. Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share. Easily move forward or backward to get to the perfect clip.




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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

How do people not like cheddarwursts? Is it because they shoot cheese out the temperature of molten lava? Toughen up folks!


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

paddler said:


> What's wrong with PBR?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not a **** thing! One of the finest gentlemen I know has a proclivity for PBR.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

backcountry said:


> How do people not like cheddarwursts? Is it because they shoot cheese out the temperature of molten lava? Toughen up folks!


That's what the cold dew, dp, bud light, or pbr is for!


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

PBR is Best on TAP !! 😁
At least, that's what I hear. 😎


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Still don't see how these retailers are anti-utah.

The tax revenue driven from the event would go to the state, and could in turn be used to continue to push their anti-public land movement. They aren't trying to hurt us. In fact they are doing what many of us want - standing up for our rights. That isn't anti-utah it's anti-bad policy. As for them "benefitting from Utah" - no, they are benefitting from free market consumers. The state of Utah isn't giving them anything.

The companies that are really anti-Utah are the ones who would(and do) lease and strip our public land, those that pollute our state (US Magnesium, AKA Magcorp - CEO doesn't even live here but doesn't mind killing us), those who exploit tax dollars for big projects, etc...

The REAL anti-Utah ones are here and thriving. If these companies were anti-Utah they would come here and help fund the efforts that are taking away real public interests.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

2full said:


> PBR is Best on TAP !! 😁
> At least, that's what I hear. 😎


Frosted Pilsner glass:


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

backcountry said:


> How do people not like cheddarwursts? Is it because they shoot cheese out the temperature of molten lava? Toughen up folks!


The heat is fine, but don't care for the cheddar flavor is all. 

Is that un-American?  🤷‍♂️


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

backcountry said:


> Was there a recent incident? I've been out of the loop recently.
> 
> Or are we talking about the Dean Potter incident from years ago? If so, he was heavily sanctioned* by multiple companies. And Patagonia was one of them as he, and his wife, were dismissed as ambassadors a year later (very big financial hit for them). That was an unsubtle statement by the industry. And rightfully so. I lived in Moab then and the series of events that happened around then were highly visible and egregious.
> 
> *Dean Potter continued to behave in problematic ways to such an extent that he was regularly in the cross hairs of the companies he represented until his predictable death. He was a controversial figure within the outdoor community as he often behaved in reckless and selfish ways.


That's the one, only I remember Patagonia's initial stance was not to dismiss him. They eventually got rid of him after public pressure.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Wasn’t Patagonia against the grizzly hunting in Wyoming a few years ago?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Wasn’t Patagonia against the grizzly hunting in Wyoming a few years ago?


Yes. The company has been very outspoken on that. Also the Yellowstone bison herd hunts.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Vanilla said:


> Yes. The company has been very outspoken on that. Also the Yellowstone bison herd hunts.


Seems like companies should "stay in their lane" about wildlife populations and allow science to dictate how herds are managed... facts don't care about feelings.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Seems like companies should "stay in their lane" about wildlife populations and allow science to dictate how herds are managed... facts don't care about feelings.


Agreed. So long as policy isn't based on "alternative facts".


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

It's well within a outdoor businesses's lane to have values around wildlife management if their clients prefer non-consumptive use.

And once again, science doesn't dictate wildlife management strategies beyond informing the preferred methods. I'm a hunter who prefers allowing us to help manage herd sizes and we can use science to do that effectively. Non-consumptive recreationist often prefer allowing the system to self regulate and they can use science to help with that outcome. 

This isn't a "facts don't care about your feelings" scenario. Science is rarely that simple.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Seems like companies should "stay in their lane" about wildlife populations and allow science to dictate how herds are managed... facts don't care about feelings.


I really don’t have a problem with people and/or companies taking public positions. I can discern what sources to listen to and which ones I should not. But when those companies take their public position, I certainly have the right to take mine. Hence…this thread!

#patagoniasucks


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I admit I've never really understood your dislike of Patagonia. It almost sounds personal. Did Yvon out fish you one day? Bump you out of your favorite hole? Hook you on a back cast?

I don't have many Patagonia items in my possession and most are old and well used. When they were purchased they were the best /cutting edge items available on the market and used for activities that demanded that. I have no need anymore for that level of equipment and there are more options to choose from. So while I can't say I am boycotting them I'm not monetarily supporting them. Does that make me ok? LOL

I can't imagine any company not pandering to their customers. Some I agree with some and some I don't.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

The stuff I was given for my BD is, I think, the first Patagonia merchandise I've ever owned. I'm pretty frugal. My daughter, who gave them to me, loves the company because of the quality and their philosophy, and is not frugal. I guess the younger generation is more attuned to the threats to our planet and is more invested in protecting it than some.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

From the Editorial in today's Trib:

"So long as Utah is not willing to realize that it is a public lands state that should put nothing ahead of its commitment to protect and preserve those commonly held spaces, there is no reason why multi-national corporations whose future depend on access to protected spaces should want to have anything to do with a state that is overtly hostile to their business plan."

Just an excerpt, but it puts the lie to this thread and therefore the OP. The problem is not "Anti-Utah Companies", it's the anti-public lands proclivities of our small-minded politicians. Just another distortion, straw man argument from our resident expert in such things.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Any halfway political thread quickly turns into a big bag of smegma around here, but this one really got wild.🙃


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Paddler, pizz off. Mods may let you spit your constant trash and make personal attacks constantly, but I’ll tell ya straight up. Pizz off. You are a child, pure and simple. The only lies here are what you tell yourself about being a man.
> 
> There is exactly one person on this forum I have zero respect for, and it’s you. Even those I think are complete idiots, I still have basic human respect for them. Not you. I’ve never met someone with less integrity in my life than you.


Actually the Mods are following this diatribe closer than you think. We're just volunteers and there could be long stretches of time before we read every post. FWI; one of Paddler's posts, #15 in this thread has been edited. 

I suggest if any of you feel a member has offended you or broken any UWN rules contact a Moderator, better yet all 4 Moderators and we will review it. My apologies if we seem a little slow to react.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Any halfway political thread quickly turns into a big bag of smegma around here, but this one really got wild.🙃


Yeah, maybe more than halfway political. We're better than this.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." ~ Mark Twain.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

wyogoob said:


> Yeah, maybe more than halfway political. We're better than this.


Since public land policy is decided by politicians, all threads pertaining to public lands are roughly 100% political. In this case, the Conservation Alliance, which includes more than 270 companies, recognized that Utah's political leaders' opposition to our monuments ran counter to the group's philosophies. To remain here would have been hypocritical. Cox's vague, mealy-mouthed promises will likely not be enough to lure the show back here. The problem lies with Utah's politics, not the Alliance. These companies aren't anti-Utah, Utah's politicians are anti-public lands. There is a price for that.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Don't care if they come back or not.
They are trying to dictate our state policy.
How can that be good for us ??
I know, I know, ........you'll have a big ignorant argument for that to slam me.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

My post aside, indications are the show needs SLC more than SLC needs the show. Denver has been a bit of a bust. I say allow the show to come back, let Patagonia walk out, and everyone will be happy.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

2full said:


> Don't care if they come back or not.
> They are trying to dictate our state policy.
> How can that be good for us ??
> I know, I know, ........you'll have a big ignorant argument for that to slam me.


Well, it could be good for us if their interests align with ours. If they were able to influence our politicians to support public lands I think it would benefit outdoorsmen. Right? Or is that ignorant?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I'd wager it stays in Denver for the next contract period given it's 25 companies signing the letter & the alternate sites beyond UT suck. 

And... the Front Range is becoming too metropolitan to keep the show for much longer. Denver will always have outdoorsman but it won't always be an outdoors town. Within 10 years Denver will just become another big city, that just happens to be near the mountains. I don't mean that to be flip but the infrastructure and region just doesn't support but so many people recreating outside. The tipping point is soon.

The OR community must know there aren't too many places like SLC left: relevant infrastructure, smaller city population and extremely close proximity to outdoor venues. Hopefully UT & OR can align their interests soon before that window closes. Both need each other equally and I think* a meaningful compromise can be found.

*My fortune telling skills are limited


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The front range of Colorado with towns such as Denver, Boulder, and the rest of them will support a outdoor show as long as they have it. Plus the yuppie culture of a lot of the rest of the state will go along with it. If you don't believe it take a drive and check it out for yourself. There are quite likely more people here in Colorado wearing the clothing that is supported by the outdoor shows that anywhere else in the US. 

It's not going away anytime soon.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

There are currently many outdoor companies that no longer exhibit at OR and not just because it moved to Denver. There are a host of reasons but it comes down to ROI. For many companies it makes more sense to go direct to retailers. They have much more control of the story they want to tell to a very targeted retail base in a setting that they feel is more advantageous to their image.

There are also a lot of issues with regards to buying cycles and finding a venue that will accommodate the dates that work for the exhibitors. OR left Las Vegas for SLC and then to Denver trying to appease many different desires. There is a long list of things they look at before choosing a location. The same as other conventions.

And just to be clear OR is a "closed" show. Open to member exhibitors and buyers from retail stores. The last thing OR wants or needs is to have a bunch of civilians taking up the time exhibitors spend talking to their potential retail distributors.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Yeah, it's really a bulk sales pitch and inventory purchase convention. Lots of $ and energy a to hype products that are only slightly different than the year before.

And, like any convention/conference, there has been an increase in extraneous options that draw the desired audience. People really don't need to ski the only slightly different new ski but they want to before putting in orders. It helps draw in new buyers but it's also an extravagant mess.

But if they want to keep that extravagant mess there are clear winners and losers for locations. Denver is fine, it's got the airport and convention space. But for the winter show it's beyond inconvenient to get that many people up onto the slopes they really want to ski. 

And like I said, Denver will always have plenty of outdoorsy people. But as the density and traffic rapidly increases its reputation rightfully changes and that affects draw. It's less of the perfect Basecamp for adventure it was 30 years ago and that's not going to be reversed. 

SLC has all of the infrastructure needed and still has the proximity to ski areas for the winter convention that Denver's traffic/population has obliterated. It's just has a better balanced buffet of options and it's reputation reflects that. 

But the OR could change it's strategy again and go to a simpler professional "vacation" model not drawn to western outdoors towns. 

Though, their list of Orlando would just be a real radical change reputation wise. But they would clearly have data to justify it, which may include the recognition that most outdoor gear is sold to people who wear it in town most of it's usable life.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> There are quite likely more people here in Colorado wearing the clothing that is supported by the outdoor shows that anywhere else in the US.


 It has been a few years since I checked but I remember something about NYC being the king.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Do a quick google search for NSAA (National Ski Area Association) convention sites LOL.

Denver accommodates the "base camp" by tacking on an extra day at the end when everybody moves to the outdoor venues as apposed to LV and SLC which ran concurrently.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

That makes sense for the logistics. And probably served the bulk of the vendors just fine & allowed the bigger names with deep pockets to do their schmoozing off site.

I don't know as many people in the industry anymore but most really got the bulk of the work done with more in person sales & business visits, like you hinted at Middlefork. Most of them no longer looked forward to OR.

The ski industry one makes sense. Given what I experienced it would seem most of the people going to those really just want to golf 😁. Never was my thing but I also was only qualified to go to trainings about software as my management experience wasn't really slope side. Ski industry really has a different vibe.

😁


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

2full said:


> Don't care if they come back or not.
> They are trying to dictate our state policy.
> How can that be good for us ??
> I know, I know, ........you'll have a big ignorant argument for that to slam me.


Wait until you find out that state policy is almost always dicatated by private interests.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> Wait until you find out that state policy is almost always dicatated by private interests.


I mentioned that in an earlier post but it got edited out. Not that what I said wasn't accurate, but I guess it offended some sensitive, head-in-the-sand types who consistently vote against their own best interests. You know who you are.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

paddler said:


> I mentioned that in an earlier post but it got edited out. Not that what I said wasn't accurate, but I guess it offended some sensitive, head-in-the-sand types who consistently vote against their own best interests. ................................


It's not what was posted but *how* it was posted. Your post that was edited, #15 in this thread, did not meet the UWN guidelines:

> Forum members should not post combative, argumentative, abusive, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, off-topic, or sexually-oriented material or make posts that encourage or condone criminal activity. In addition, we do not want posts that are derisive of *religious,* ethnic or racial groups. 



> Please do not post rants, *insults*, abusive language, *personal attacks or ongoing obnoxious behavior*.





> Please do not make posts about politics, sexual orientation or religion that have little to do with the outdoors or wildlife. Experience tells us that these threads too often become heated, offensive and detrimental to the forum.


Then there's these: 

> Please do not attempt to bypass the word filters with such things as *alternate spellings* and euphemisms. 



> The forum moderators volunteer their time to help make this a better place. Do not publicly dispute their decisions. If you have concerns, please discuss it with them in private messages.


These are the rules you promised to follow when you joined the UWN:








Utah Wildlife Network - General forum guidelines and rules


General forum guidelines and rules The Utah Wildlife Network (UWN) exists as a meeting ground for those interested in Utah outdoor recreation. It is supported exclusively by ads and donations, but is free to everyone. The UWN staff reserves the right to determine what is or what is not...




www.utahwildlife.net




If you don't want to follow them the rest of your stay here will be brief.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

As the world turns.......









Outdoor Retailer show to return to Utah


The massive Outdoor Retailer trade show will be returning to Utah




www.fox13now.com


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I'm honestly surprised by this. 


This I found curious. (from the article)

"But Salt Lake City Mayor Erin Mendenhall helped negotiate the return to Utah's capital city, FOX 13 News has learned. She touted her administration's environmental policies and the benefits of the show being in Salt Lake City."


So it would seem that Utah's *liberals *are being credited with bringing the OR show back. Does that mean that the states "R" leadership will tone down their public lands rhetoric and TPL aims down a notch?🤷‍♂️
(I may regret bringing this up. 🤦‍♂️)


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Don't count on it. If the R's got rid of the TPL plank they would have no opposition at all.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

This article seems to have a little more information.



Outdoor Retailer show moving to Utah despite boycott threats


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Meh.... I haven't missed them probably won't go when they come back.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

bowgy said:


> Meh.... I haven't missed them probably won't go when they come back.


It was a closed show before when it was here. So unless you were either an exhibitor or a buyer for a retail outlet you were not invited. If you are a retailer or wholesaler and wish not to attend good on you. Nice thing about it everybody involved gets to decide.

I don't care anymore because I'm no longer involved. But I can insure you there are more than a few people with businesses related to the show who are happy to see it return. Much like any other convention.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I said when they left that they were not helping Utah or fighting for Utah, but they were turning their back on Utah by taking their ball and going home by moving the show. That if they wanted to effect change, stay in Utah and lobby for change. Once you leave, you'll be ignored. 

Weird that 5 years later they are saying all the same things. (It's actually not weird to me at all) 

The OR show coming back and Patagonia not coming is a win-win for everyone. Screw Patagonia.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

middlefork said:


> It was a closed show before when it was here. So unless you were either an exhibitor or a buyer for a retail outlet you were not invited. If you are a retailer or wholesaler and wish not to attend good on you. Nice thing about it everybody involved gets to decide.
> 
> I don't care anymore because I'm no longer involved. But I can insure you there are more than a few people with businesses related to the show who are happy to see it return. Much like any other convention.


From the connections from my father in law owning a sporting goods store and a good friend that owns one he could get me in there and the shot show when I wanted to go but like I said my interest in them have wained in the past years.


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