# burbot bad why?



## trapper12

I've been thinking about loading up heading to burbot waters for a weekend and wondering why are they bad for utah and Wyomings fisheries? I've never heard of them tell last summer.


----------



## Idratherbehunting

I read an article a while ago, but can't find it now (might have even been a post on UWN, but can't find it now), that said that a burbot can lay nearly 1 million eggs, and they will eat anything and everything. In contrast, the article said that a lake trout will lay 200-300 eggs. If those numbers are accurate, and they are even half way hungry, it would have a big impact on the lake. That's why from what I understand.


----------



## 30-06-hunter

I hear they taste yummy but am yet to eat one.


----------



## 30-06-hunter

Idratherbehunting said:


> I read an article a while ago, but can't find it now (might have even been a post on UWN, but can't find it now), that said that a burbot can lay nearly 1 million eggs, and they will eat anything and everything. In contrast, the article said that a lake trout will lay 200-300 eggs. If those numbers are accurate, and they are even half way hungry, it would have a big impact on the lake. That's why from what I understand.


You are correct.


----------



## trapper12

That's what I was wondering if it's because they eat everything in the lake. And i have read that they are good also, I think it would taste like catfish. Thanks for the info I really wanna spend a weekend getting all the fish i want haha


----------



## fishnate

They are a non-native species west of the Rockies. They have been illegally introduced into the Gorge which is in the Colorado River drainage which is an important drainage for many native species of chubs and suckers and cutthroat trout. The US Fish & Wildlife Service prohibits the introduction of any species that might cause harm to these native fishes. Smallmouth bass, northern pike, walleye and burbot are among those species present in the drainage that are on the eradication list because they are non-native and highly aggressive in their reproduction and predation habits. Regulations are in place to reduce those species in the Green River and Colorado River and several fisheries along the way depending upon their potential for causing problems. Non-native species, whether animal or plant, often cause millions of dollars of damage to ecosystems and economies around the world, that's why it's vital to study the whys and wherefores prior to any non-native species introduction.

Burbot are native and welcome to exist east of the Rockies. Being native to that area everything is well adapted to their presence - habitat, predator/prey relationship, disease, etc. keep this species under control in most circumstances. West of the Rockies few if any of those natural controls exist so they get out of control and must be controlled by anglers or other less desirable means. So far anglers appear to be doing a fairly good job at the Gorge and only time will tell if angling alone will be effective enough.


----------



## trapper12

I hope video like the taste cause I don't want to get like a hundred pounds and it be horrible. I want to do a fish fry this summer and 8 catfish won't be enough so hopefully burbot will be good.


----------



## trapper12

Video is supposed to be in stupid auto spell


----------



## Critter

Burbot are a cod and they taste delicious. Just be aware that there is a slime on their outer skin that you don't want to get onto the meat. We usually wear vinyl gloves to clean and skin them.


----------



## trapper12

Just wondering why the gloves? Thanks for tell me they are good critter


----------



## Dodger

I think they taste more like flounder than cod, but that may not help too much. Not too much fresh flounder around. It's more of a flaky delicate white meat fish, much more delicate than the pacific/black cod or pollack, which is often sold as cod.

Flaming Gorge, where the burbot live, is the premier kokanee salmon fishery in the the entire country. (Berryessa and Shasta probably up there too). Flaming Gorge is also the premier lake trout fishery in the entire country (Other lakes in Canada are probably more sought after for macs.) 

So Flaming Gorge has a huge huge presence in fishing circles. It's produced several state records in 2 states. 

Burbot were discovered in Flaming Gorge in 2006 and until about 2013, had an explosion of population that has only in the last two years started to slow down. At the same time, the prevalence of large lake trout and returning 4th year kokanee were very low. No one is sure that the burbot are to blame, but they are the most obvious changed variable. So they have been targeted for removal. Also, the crawfish at Flaming Gorge have been decimated by the burbot. Smallmouth bass populations are down. An 18" burbot (which is not that big of a fish given their snake like shape) can eat a 2nd year kokanee without a second thought. 

The best way they've come up with to test the theory that burbot are responsible for the population declines is to kill as many as possible and see if the other species bounce back. And the earliest evidence is that the other species are bouncing back.

I've caught Burbot on the Utah and Wyoming side of the lake with the larger ones being caught in Utah. I've seen them just absolutely full of lake trout eggs, crawfish, small kokanee, anything they can get their jaws on.

So, to answer the original question, Flaming Gorge is a big fishing draw that WY and UT want to protect (even though it was likely WYFG that stocked burbot into FG to begin with). The regulations were put in place to help a premier US fishery.


----------



## Critter

To keep the slime off of your hands and the meat. We usually only wear one glove on the hand that is handling the fish when we are cleaning it, then once the skin is off it is no problem. 

Here is a video and some ideas on them.


----------



## Dodger

trapper12 said:


> I hope video like the taste cause I don't want to get like a hundred pounds and it be horrible. I want to do a fish fry this summer and 8 catfish won't be enough so hopefully burbot will be good.


You won't get a hundred pounds. The population isn't big enough for that.

Be aware that there is a mercury advisory on Burbot at FG.

They taste good, especially fried.



They are incredibly slimy and the slime stinks. That's why the gloves. I cut through the skin, just behind the head, all the way around the head. Grab the skin with pliers and peel it off like you would peel a sock off your foot. Be very careful to not get any of the slime on the meat. The slime has a very bitter taste and will ruin the meat if it comes in contact.

I take the backstraps from the neck to just past the rib cage along the back. Take the backstraps down to about halfway down the rib cage. I don't eat the belly meat or the tail meat. That stuff doesn't fry well anyway because it is too thin.

The two strips above are backstraps from left and right sides. That's the stuff to eat.


----------



## Mtnbeer

fishnate said:


> They are a non-native species west of the Rockies. They have been illegally introduced into the Gorge which is in the Colorado River drainage which is an important drainage for many native species of chubs and suckers and cutthroat trout. The US Fish & Wildlife Service prohibits the introduction of any species that might cause harm to these native fishes. Smallmouth bass, northern pike, walleye and burbot are among those species present in the drainage that are on the eradication list because they are non-native and highly aggressive in their reproduction and predation habits. Regulations are in place to reduce those species in the Green River and Colorado River and several fisheries along the way depending upon their potential for causing problems. Non-native species, whether animal or plant, often cause millions of dollars of damage to ecosystems and economies around the world, that's why it's vital to study the whys and wherefores prior to any non-native species introduction.
> 
> Burbot are native and welcome to exist east of the Rockies. Being native to that area everything is well adapted to their presence - habitat, predator/prey relationship, disease, etc. keep this species under control in most circumstances. West of the Rockies few if any of those natural controls exist so they get out of control and must be controlled by anglers or other less desirable means. So far anglers appear to be doing a fairly good job at the Gorge and only time will tell if angling alone will be effective enough.


As a clarification, burbot are a native species west of the Rockies as well, particularly in western Canada and Alaska. They are typically found in boreal areas though. That being said, everything else you posted is correct. They are not native to the Green River/Colorado River drainages, but then again, neither are lake trout or kokanee. :grin:


----------



## Dodger

Mtnbeer said:


> As a clarification, burbot are a native species west of the Rockies as well, particularly in western Canada and Alaska. They are typically found in boreal areas though. That being said, everything else you posted is correct. They are not native to the Green River/Colorado River drainages, but then again, neither are lake trout or kokanee. :grin:


This is why textbook answers are not helpful. Everything is invasive. Man is an invasive species according to science. More often than not people argue that we have no right to be here or do what we do.

Man even created Flaming Gorge. Man decided that lake trout and kokanee are protected sportfish in Flaming Gorge, even though lake trout are considered invasive in Yellowstone Lake. Man decided that burbot are a threat to the fish man desires to be in the reservoir man created.

It's not about who or what was here first unless some species is in danger of going extinct. It is about what is desirable and not desirable.

Just saying they are invasive species isn't helpful to the conversation.


----------



## Dunkem

"I think they taste more like flounder than cod, but that may not help too much. Not too much fresh flounder around. It's more of a flaky delicate white meat fish, much more delicate than the pacific/black cod or pollack, which is often sold as cod".Quoted from Dodgers post.

Species of fish being sold as something else is now not allowed.Every pound of fish I bring into the store has to have a :COOL: label on it which stands for country of origin.It has to list where the fish was caught,processed,and species of said fish.We have to save these labels and list them for 6 months,violation of just 1 can have a $1000.00 dollar fine.Same with shellfish.What we used to sell as red snapper,is actually rock fish and must be labeled as such.On every price tag it must state whether the fish is wild or farm raised,and the country of origin.The same program is now going on all meat products,beef,pork,lamb,chicken,turkey.The only way you are not required to list all this is if the product has been adulterated,like cooked,salad,smoked,seasoned etc.We are checked often by the U.S.D.A.


----------



## Dodger

Dunkem said:


> "I think they taste more like flounder than cod, but that may not help too much. Not too much fresh flounder around. It's more of a flaky delicate white meat fish, much more delicate than the pacific/black cod or pollack, which is often sold as cod".Quoted from Dodgers post.
> 
> Species of fish being sold as something else is now not allowed.Every pound of fish I bring into the store has to have a :COOL: label on it which stands for country of origin.It has to list where the fish was caught,processed,and species of said fish.We have to save these labels and list them for 6 months,violation of just 1 can have a $1000.00 dollar fine.Same with shellfish.What we used to sell as red snapper,is actually rock fish and must be labeled as such.On every price tag it must state whether the fish is wild or farm raised,and the country of origin.The same program is now going on all meat products,beef,pork,lamb,chicken,turkey.The only way you are not required to list all this is if the product has been adulterated,like cooked,salad,smoked,seasoned etc.We are checked often by the U.S.D.A.


Actually, that's what I meant Dunkem. When you buy a "cod" sandwich you may be getting pollack instead of cod. You're talking about fish counter fish. But I doubt most people who have eaten "cod" have gotten it in a sandwich instead of from the fish counter.

But, there is all sorts of confusion on fish counters. Maybe not to you but there is plenty for everyone else. People buy rockfish thinking they bought striped bass in Maryland and Virgina. (Striped bass is not legal to sell any more). People buy rockfish and get chilean sea bass or get patagonian toothfish and ended up getting chilean sea bass. People buy rockfish on the pacific coast and think they are getting one of the species of rockfish that live off the coast when they are getting chilean sea bass. There are at least 2 names for 5 different kinds of salmon, leading to more confusion.

Examples:
King salmon, Chinook salmon, Blackmouth salmon - all the same.
Silver salmon, Coho salmon - all the same.
Sockeye salmon, Red salmon, Blueback salmon - all the same.
Pink salmon, Humpy salmon - all the same
Chum salmon, Dog salmon, Keta salmon - all the same.

I've seen salmon labeled under every one of those names, except Dog salmon because "Keta" sounds better than "dog" when you are trying to sell food to someone even though "Keta" is the eskimo word for dog.

But people think there are 13 different kinds of salmon because they don't know better.

I was served "arctic char" in a restaurant once. I asked what kind of fish it was, knowing the answer full well. The waitress checked and asked the chef. She came back and told me it was a type of salmon.

You and I both know there are a lot of shell games being played with fish, even after the COOL tags were implemented.


----------



## utahgolf

don't the lakers put a big hurt on those burbot? I was watching an ice fishing video and a big laker had a good size burbot in its throat.....I enjoyed chasing those burbot and am kinda bummed they are gone if that makes any sense. I know they are detrimental to that place but it still was fun two years ago catching a bunch on the ice.


----------



## Dodger

utahgolf said:


> don't the lakers put a big hurt on those burbot? I was watching an ice fishing video and a big laker had a good size burbot in its throat.....I enjoyed chasing those burbot and am kinda bummed they are gone if that makes any sense. I know they are detrimental to that place but it still was fun two years ago catching a bunch on the ice.


Not as much as you'd think. There aren't enough big lake trout to put a serious dent on the population. And, the lake trout like to feed up, which means they like snacking on 8" rainbow morsels. Burbot are on the bottom, not where the lake trout are looking to feed.

They'll still be there, they are just a little more under control now than they were a few years ago, largely because anglers have put a dent in them.


----------



## Elkaholic2

Dodger said:


> This is why textbook answers are not helpful. Everything is invasive. Man is an invasive species according to science. More often than not people argue that we have no right to be here or do what we do.
> 
> Man even created Flaming Gorge. Man decided that lake trout and kokanee are protected sportfish in Flaming Gorge, even though lake trout are considered invasive in Yellowstone Lake. Man decided that burbot are a threat to the fish man desires to be in the reservoir man created.
> 
> It's not about who or what was here first unless some species is in danger of going extinct. It is about what is desirable and not desirable.
> 
> Just saying they are invasive species isn't helpful to the conversation.


They are not so much "invasive" to the ecosystem as they are invasive to the management strategy of the colorado river drainage! Great post dodger!


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

great thread


----------



## swbuckmaster

Dodger said:


> Not as much as you'd think. There aren't enough big lake trout to put a serious dent on the population. And, the lake trout like to feed up, which means they like snacking on 8" rainbow morsels. Burbot are on the bottom, not where the lake trout are looking to feed.


Seems all the lake trout I catch are on the bottom using bouncing, dragging, lures in the mudd. Lake trout are always on our graph on or near the bottom. So i'm sure the lake trout won't have a problem finding and eating them if they like the taste of them. In fact lakers eating burbot could be one of the reasons the larger lake trout are harder to catch these days.

I still don't want burbot in the lake competing with the fish I prefer to eat and catch. Imho they are worse then carp. Carp at least fight. You can catch carp in the day time. I don't have to fish at night or in an ice hut at night to catch a carp. We don't need any more egg sucking fish in the lake.


----------



## Dodger

swbuckmaster said:


> Seems all the lake trout I catch are on the bottom using bouncing, dragging, lures in the mudd. Lake trout are always on our graph on or near the bottom. So i'm sure the lake trout won't have a problem finding and eating them if they like the taste of them. In fact lakers eating burbot could be one of the reasons the larger lake trout are harder to catch these days.
> 
> I still don't want burbot in the lake competing with the fish I prefer to eat and catch. Imho they are worse then carp. Carp at least fight. You can catch carp in the day time. I don't have to fish at night or in an ice hut at night to catch a carp. We don't need any more egg sucking fish in the lake.


Definitely true SW. The macs do sit on or near the bottom. I could be wrong but I think the macs are annoyed by stuff bouncing in the mud and hit because they are annoyed, not necessarily because they are trying to feed.

I could be wrong.

But I do know they like to eat rainbows higher up in the water column. I've seen them shoot off the bottom about 80 feet up to hit a lure.


----------



## trapper12

Thanks for the input everyone i appreciate it


----------



## 30-06-hunter

Dodger said:


> Definitely true SW. The macs do sit on or near the bottom. I could be wrong but I think the macs are annoyed by stuff bouncing in the mud and hit because they are annoyed, not necessarily because they are trying to feed.
> 
> I could be wrong.
> 
> But I do know they like to eat rainbows higher up in the water column. I've seen them shoot off the bottom about 80 feet up to hit a lure.


You are very correct, a fish will attack a lure/bait if they feel threatened, are protecting spawning beds, are hungry, or are just being being annoyed.


----------



## massmanute

trapper12 said:


> I've been thinking about loading up heading to burbot waters for a weekend and wondering why are they bad for utah and Wyomings fisheries?


Because they are not trout or salmon.


----------



## Dunkem

Dodger said:


> Actually, that's what I meant Dunkem. When you buy a "cod" sandwich you may be getting pollack instead of cod. You're talking about fish counter fish. But I doubt most people who have eaten "cod" have gotten it in a sandwich instead of from the fish counter.
> 
> But, there is all sorts of confusion on fish counters. Maybe not to you but there is plenty for everyone else. People buy rockfish thinking they bought striped bass in Maryland and Virgina. (Striped bass is not legal to sell any more). People buy rockfish and get chilean sea bass or get patagonian toothfish and ended up getting chilean sea bass. People buy rockfish on the pacific coast and think they are getting one of the species of rockfish that live off the coast when they are getting chilean sea bass. There are at least 2 names for 5 different kinds of salmon, leading
> King salmon, Chinook salmon, Blackmouth salmon - all the same.
> Silver salmon, Coho salmon - all the same.
> Sockeye salmon, Red salmon, Blueback salmon - all the same.
> Pink salmon, Humpy salmon - all the same
> Chum salmon, Dog salmon, Keta salmon - all the same.
> 
> I've seen salmon labeled under every one of those names, except Dog salmon because "Keta" sounds better than "dog" when you are trying to sell food to someone even though "Keta" is the eskimo word for dog.
> 
> But people think there are 13 different kinds of salmon because they don't know better.
> 
> I was served "arctic char" in a restaurant once. I asked what kind of fish it was, knowing the answer full well. The waitress checked and asked the chef. She came back and told me it was a type of salmon.
> 
> You and I both know there are a lot of shell games being played with fish, even after the COOL tags were implemented.


Shell games in the restaurant bus,maybe,retail stores better comply with new rules,including all species of meat and seafood.And things are going to get tougher in the future,we have to do all this COOL stuff in our produce sections also.There is at least 2 to 3 hours of paper work weekly if this is done the way the USDA wants it.you could have a tag with the COOL label that fell off,and be fined.Seafood laws are getting tougher all the time.By the way Chilean sea bass is fast becoming one of the more expensive fish out there.Its not in sustainable waters.We have quit selling it because of the cost,and public outcry. I appreciate your thoughts on fast food fish,and I think you will see that change in the future.Our oceans are fast being depleted,we only buy seafood that comes from sustainable waters.Alot of people are againest farming of salmon,but our salmon industry would be in a world of hurt without it. also saying not all these salmon farms are doing a good job,thats why we look into them before buying fron them.


----------



## Dunkem

Sorry I hijacked this post,Back to topic!!!


----------



## Daisy

Dodger said:


> People buy rockfish thinking they bought striped bass in Maryland and Virgina. (Striped bass is not legal to sell any more).


Actually, commercial striped bass fisheries are still present in Mass. and NY state and are well regulated, Maryland tends to do their own thing. Additionally, farmed striped bass is also readily available to consumer via their local fish monger. There is at least one if not two, striped bass aquaculture operations in Colorado.


----------



## Daisy

Dodger said:


> So, to answer the original question, Flaming Gorge is a big fishing draw that WY and UT want to protect (even though it was likely WYFG that stocked burbot into FG to begin with). The regulations were put in place to help a premier US fishery.


Burbot are native to the Wind/Bighorn drainage in Wyoming. They were illegally introduced into the upper Green River drainage in the early 1990's. They have quickly migrated downstream, through Fontenelle, through FG, and it would not surprise me to find limited populations of them in Lake Powell at this time. WYFG did not stock them into FG.


----------



## Dunkem

Daisy said:


> Actually, commercial striped bass fisheries are still present in Mass. and NY state and are well regulated, Maryland tends to do their own thing. Additionally, farmed striped bass is also readily available to consumer via their local fish monger. There is at least one if not two, striped bass aquaculture operations in Colorado.


Very true Daisy,and the fish they use to clean the ponds of all the striped bass poo?The much sought after Tilapia,now they are not selling these Tilapia for market,but alot of Tilapia comes from China>>>>>I will stop there.uke:


----------



## Daisy

Dunkem said:


> Very true Daisy,and the fish they use to clean the ponds of all the striped bass poo?The much sought after Tilapia,now they are not selling these Tilapia for market,but alot of Tilapia comes from China>>>>>I will stop there.uke:


True, but those "dirty" secrets can be said about about many farmed protein sources whether it is beef, chicken or pork. This is why as the consumer it pays to be informed cfr: COOL certifications. The use of biofloc's has largely eliminated double cropping of fish species to eliminate organic waste in modern aquaculture. Does this still occur in the small Mom and Pop fish farms of China and VietNam, sure, but if you were to source tilapia from some of the modern farms in Mexico and South America, you will find complete tracability from egg to filet, at better standards than here in the US.


----------



## Dunkem

Daisy said:


> True, but those "dirty" secrets can be said about about many farmed protein sources whether it is beef, chicken or pork. This is why as the consumer it pays to be informed cfr: COOL certifications. The use of biofloc's has largely eliminated double cropping of fish species to eliminate organic waste in modern aquaculture. Does this still occur in the small Mom and Pop fish farms of China and VietNam, sure, but if you were to source tilapia from some of the modern farms in Mexico and South America, you will find complete tracability from egg to filet, at better standards than here in the US.


Thats why I said China,Im aware of aguaculture practices.Its not just the small farms in China and Vietnam.Thats why our store does not handle any product from those 2 countries.They were still harvesting shrimp after terrible storms flooded and had bodies floating in the shrimp farms.


----------



## Dodger

Daisy said:


> Actually, commercial striped bass fisheries are still present in Mass. and NY state and are well regulated, Maryland tends to do their own thing. Additionally, farmed striped bass is also readily available to consumer via their local fish monger. There is at least one if not two, striped bass aquaculture operations in Colorado.


Federal law prohibits the sale of wild caught striped bass. Period. The end. If Mass and NY are still commercially catching and selling striped bass, it is illegal. The only wild striped bass that are legal to take are caught within 3 miles of shore by recreational anglers.

No one here is talking about farmed fish.



Daisy said:


> Burbot are native to the Wind/Bighorn drainage in Wyoming. They were illegally introduced into the upper Green River drainage in the early 1990's. They have quickly migrated downstream, through Fontenelle, through FG, and it would not surprise me to find limited populations of them in Lake Powell at this time. WYFG did not stock them into FG.


WYFG doesn't know when the burbot were stocked. Utah DWR doesn't know when the burbot were stocked. Unless you did the stocking, there is no way for you to know that the burbot were stocked in the 1990s.

Furthermore, the information I have seen says that WYFG unintentionally stocked burbot into the upper Green River drainage. There is evidence that a stocking truck of burbot went to the wrong lake and dumped the burbot into the upper Green River drainage. WYFG won't say they did it but they won't say they didn't do it. But, that is the most likely scenario for burbot getting into the Green River that I've seen. Are they 100% the illegal stockers? No. Is it more likely than not WYFG did it? Yes.

It would take a serious amount of fish to create a spawning population of any fish in any drainage. The odds are against establishing a population by some guy throwing 20 of them in a cooler and hoping a few males find a few females next winter.


----------



## swbuckmaster

Dodger said:


> Furthermore, the information I have seen says that WYFG unintentionally stocked burbot into the upper Green River drainage. There is evidence that a stocking truck of burbot went to the wrong lake and dumped the burbot into the upper Green River drainage. WYFG won't say they did it but they won't say they didn't do it. But, that is the most likely scenario for burbot getting into the Green River that I've seen. Are they 100% the illegal stockers? No. Is it more likely than not WYFG did it? Yes.
> 
> It would take a serious amount of fish to create a spawning population of any fish in any drainage. The odds are against establishing a population by some guy throwing 20 of them in a cooler and hoping a few males find a few females next winter.


Bingo!! I believe I even heard this out of a utah fish cops mouth several years ago.


----------



## Mtnbeer

Dodger said:


> Federal law prohibits the sale of wild caught striped bass. Period. The end. If Mass and NY are still commercially catching and selling striped bass, it is illegal. The only wild striped bass that are legal to take are caught within 3 miles of shore by recreational anglers.
> 
> No one here is talking about farmed fish.


Seriously, you really should do some research before you spout things off as fact (or at least provide context). Recreational anglers cannot sell striped bass (just as in Utah you can't sell kokanee or any other game fish on a sport fishing license). However, you can legally harvest and sell atlantic striped bass from mean high tide to 3 miles out on a commercial fishing license in seven states on the eastern seaboard. Beyond 3 miles, commercial striped bass harvest is closed.

Here is the most recent stock assessment for atlantic striped bass directly from NOAA fisheries. Note the major discussion on commercial catch:
http://nefsc.noaa.gov/publications/crd/crd1316/partb.pdf

Also, it only takes a few fish to establish a population. Otherwise, there would not be trout in high mountain lakes in the Sierras or salmon that are establishing populations on the North Slope of Alaska in places they have never been before.


----------



## Daisy

Dodger said:


> Federal law prohibits the sale of wild caught striped bass. Period. The end. If Mass and NY are still commercially catching and selling striped bass, it is illegal. The only wild striped bass that are legal to take are caught within 3 miles of shore by recreational anglers.
> 
> No one here is talking about farmed fish.
> 
> WYFG doesn't know when the burbot were stocked. Utah DWR doesn't know when the burbot were stocked. Unless you did the stocking, there is no way for you to know that the burbot were stocked in the 1990s.
> 
> Furthermore, the information I have seen says that WYFG unintentionally stocked burbot into the upper Green River drainage. There is evidence that a stocking truck of burbot went to the wrong lake and dumped the burbot into the upper Green River drainage. WYFG won't say they did it but they won't say they didn't do it. But, that is the most likely scenario for burbot getting into the Green River that I've seen. Are they 100% the illegal stockers? No. Is it more likely than not WYFG did it? Yes.
> 
> It would take a serious amount of fish to create a spawning population of any fish in any drainage. The odds are against establishing a population by some guy throwing 20 of them in a cooler and hoping a few males find a few females next winter.


Burbot females have been documented to produce 3 million+ eggs per clutch. Thus the concern regarding the range expansion of burbot.

Maybe a little light reading for you Dodger:

http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Fishing/pdfs/GR_ANGLERNEWS_20140005895.pdf


----------



## Dodger

Mtnbeer said:


> Seriously, you really should do some research before you spout things off as fact (or at least provide context). Recreational anglers cannot sell striped bass (just as in Utah you can't sell kokanee or any other game fish on a sport fishing license). However, you can legally harvest and sell atlantic striped bass from mean high tide to 3 miles out on a commercial fishing license in seven states on the eastern seaboard. Beyond 3 miles, commercial striped bass harvest is closed.
> 
> Here is the most recent stock assessment for atlantic striped bass directly from NOAA fisheries. Note the major discussion on commercial catch:
> http://nefsc.noaa.gov/publications/crd/crd1316/partb.pdf
> 
> Also, it only takes a few fish to establish a population. Otherwise, there would not be trout in high mountain lakes in the Sierras or salmon that are establishing populations on the North Slope of Alaska in places they have never been before.


Dude, I lived there. I fished it. And why the hostility?

High mountain lakes are generally supplemented by stocking, that's what keeps most of the fish in the areas you are talking about. Also, those lakes are relatively small and easier for the fish to find each other to spawn.

Are you trying to tell me that 2 fish planted in Yellowstone Lake were responsible for the entire population that is there now? Really?


----------



## Dodger

Daisy said:


> Burbot females have been documented to produce 3 million+ eggs per clutch. Thus the concern regarding the range expansion of burbot.
> 
> Maybe a little light reading for you Dodger:
> 
> http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Fishing/pdfs/GR_ANGLERNEWS_20140005895.pdf


So what? Someone got really lucky and found a single pregnant burbot that had a higher than average rate of offspring survival? You really think that is more likely than a high school educated (maybe?) summer employee backing a truck up to the wrong place?

I don't think I need to tell you it takes two fish to tango.


----------



## Daisy

Dodger said:


> So what? Someone got really lucky and found a single pregnant burbot that had a higher than average rate of offspring survival? You really think that is more likely than a high school educated (maybe?) summer employee backing a truck up to the wrong place?
> 
> I don't think I need to tell you it takes two fish to tango.


It is a good thing we are not talking about denial, because that is a river on the African continent.

Cherry pick all you want, female burbot fecundity ranges from approximately 6,000 to 3 million+ eggs/ female based on numerous factors: https://collaboration.idfg.idaho.gov/FisheriesTechnicalReports/Burbot Biology and Life History.pdf

Some of your earlier comments were unquestionably incorrect regarding burbot (a pregnant burbot?) and striped bass and have since been refuted.


----------



## longbow

Dodger, now is a good time to stop. I don't know Daisy or anything about her but she does sound like she knows what she's talking about. I do know Mtnbeer. I work at one of the biggest salmon hatcheries in the world. Our company often contracts him to do fish-related research for us. That's what he does for a living. I think these two know of what they speak.


----------



## Dodger

Daisy said:


> It is a good thing we are not talking about denial, because that is a river on the African continent.
> 
> Cherry pick all you want, female burbot fecundity ranges from approximately 6,000 to 3 million+ eggs/ female based on numerous factors: https://collaboration.idfg.idaho.gov/FisheriesTechnicalReports/Burbot Biology and Life History.pdf
> 
> Some of your earlier comments were unquestionably incorrect regarding burbot (a pregnant burbot?) and striped bass and have since been refuted.


Ok, let's assume what I said isn't correct. So what? What does that change? That I think burbot tastes like flounder? That I just eat the backstraps? So what?

You don't think WYFG stocked burbot in the Green River. The evidence says otherwise. So what? I don't care what you believe. I have said multiple times that a misguided WYFG truck is, in my mind, the most plausible explanation. for how burbot got to the Green River.

The amount of eggs in a burbot is irrelevant. If there is only 1 burbot with eggs in it stocked into a lake, there is NO chance of it producing more burbot. If a male is also stocked in the lake, the odds of the two burbot finding each other to spawn is infinitesimal. If a male can't find the female to spawn, the number of eggs a female carries is irrelevant.

Maybe you ought to go chuck a burbot in the Nile and let us know how long it takes to create a population on its own. Heck, dump 10 in there. Let me know how they do.

It takes pretty little people to troll forums for burbot.


----------



## Dodger

longbow said:


> Dodger, now is a good time to stop. I don't know Daisy or anything about her but she does sound like she knows what she's talking about. I do know Mtnbeer. I work at one of the biggest salmon hatcheries in the world. Our company often contracts him to do fish-related research for us. That's what he does for a living. I think these two know of what they speak.


And what do you know about me? Should I say fecundity a few times to impress you?

:grin:


----------



## longbow

Dodger said:


> And what do you know about me? Should I say fecundity a few times to impress you?
> 
> :grin:


I don't know you. I may have judged you too quickly.
I don't argue with Goob about cooking, SWbuckmaster about being a daughter's dad, MikeVanwilder about predators, DallonC about reloading, KevinD about hounds, Tex-O-Bob about bird taxi, SpringvilleShooter about benchrest, Groganite about tuning motorcycles, LOAH about fishing, Bearsbutt about muzzleloading, Fowlmouth about waterfowl, K2 about Muskies, Bax* about living his religion, or #1Deer 1-I about.....well, maybe him. My point is, these guys know their sh!t more than I do. I see all of them as a great opportunity to learn not argue. Just sayin'.


----------



## Dodger

longbow said:


> I don't know you. I may have judged you too quickly.
> I don't argue with Goob about cooking, SWbuckmaster about being a daughter's dad, MikeVanwilder about predators, DallonC about reloading, KevinD about hounds, Tex-O-Bob about bird taxi, SpringvilleShooter about benchrest, Groganite about tuning motorcycles, LOAH about fishing, Bearsbutt about muzzleloading, Fowlmouth about waterfowl, K2 about Muskies, Bax* about living his religion, or #1Deer 1-I about.....well, maybe him. My point is, these guys know their sh!t more than I do. I see all of them as a great opportunity to learn not argue. Just sayin'.


I'm with you on that. If they wanted to have a discussion, then they could have left out the hostility. They wanted an argument, not a discussion. Easy enough.


----------



## 30-06-hunter

Sounds like ya'll need to chill out, regardless of how they got there we need to focus on how to catch and eat more burbot, I'm going to do my part by buying a boat to go after them. Need to add crawdad traps to the list as well.


----------



## Dunkem

Guys lets look at what we can do to control the burbut other than throw blame and argue.if not we will lock this one up.Thanks for all of your understanding.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

I just wanted to throw this out there. I have never met any of these people but they have all made valid points after reading up on it myself. As Longbow says about everybody has a specialty and somebody will almost always know more than another.

When I first got on this forum I reached out for help with regards to trolling. Specifically Strawberry for kokes and bows. Dodger stepped up and helped me with more advice than anybody. Not only how to fish them but where and when. Right down to tackle and the best bang for the buck on rods and reels. Paying it forward counts far more to me than knowing more than the next fish biolgist. Dodger helped me out big time and has allowed for many days of success trolling for my family and I. He is a good egg in my book.


----------



## Jedidiah

Dunkem said:


> Guys lets look at what we can do to control the burbut other than throw blame and argue.if not we will lock this one up.Thanks for all of your understanding.


How do you guys cook burbot? Maybe we should start a thread. Wyogoob? Also, how do I catch them? :mrgreen: >>O


----------



## Dodger

The original question is why are burbot bad for FG. I answered the question. And, as a reward for my trouble, I got jumped on for it based on pure disagreement, not facts and evidence.

I've had a fair amount of success at FG and Strawberry for every species there. I try to share a little of what I have learned and if I don't do an A+ research paper in response, people who do little more here than come out to chastise other people for their own misunderstandings, come out of the woodwork and start screaming bloody murder. Is that the kind of forum you want?

It's a wonder I don't come here more often.


----------



## Mtnbeer

Dodger.
I was not intending hostility in responding to you . If it came off that way, I apologize. I tend to be a stickler for details and sometimes get a little too fired up.

Regardless, I do want to say, I agree with you Dodger, in that all this is driven by human preferences and not biology. People prefer kokanee and lake trout and not burbot. Regardless of how they got there, that's the management regime we are in.


----------



## Dodger

30-06-hunter said:


> Sounds like ya'll need to chill out, regardless of how they got there we need to focus on how to catch and eat more burbot, I'm going to do my part by buying a boat to go after them. Need to add crawdad traps to the list as well.


Boating for them is tough. It's best at night and when it is really cold out. Your window is late October to ice up for boating as well. And if you really want to put a hurt on them, you need to be on the WY side. Utah has them but not as many and the places to catch them are a lot more specific. The ice is all that is left for catching burbot this season.

Also, if your burbot fishing is good, your crawdad fishing will be terrible. And if your crawdad fishing is good, your burbot fishing will be terrible.

I ran some crawdad traps at Strawberry last summer and did really well with them. I've run the traps at FG but it's been a downhill spiral since the burbot came on the scene. You can find good pockets of crawdads at FG but the numbers are way way down in my experience.


----------



## Dodger

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I just wanted to throw this out there. I have never met any of these people but they have all made valid points after reading up on it myself. As Longbow says about everybody has a specialty and somebody will almost always know more than another.
> 
> When I first got on this forum I reached out for help with regards to trolling. Specifically Strawberry for kokes and bows. Dodger stepped up and helped me with more advice than anybody. Not only how to fish them but where and when. Right down to tackle and the best bang for the buck on rods and reels. Paying it forward counts far more to me than knowing more than the next fish biolgist. Dodger helped me out big time and has allowed for many days of success trolling for my family and I. He is a good egg in my book.


I'm really glad you are getting some fish on the troll Mr. I hope you are finding plenty of salmon at the end of your lines. Really makes me happy to hear that.


----------



## Dodger

Jedidiah said:


> How do you guys cook burbot? Maybe we should start a thread. Wyogoob? Also, how do I catch them? :mrgreen: >>O


If you look up any recipe for fish and chips, cook your burbot the same way it says to cook the fish in those recipes.

Just watch it because the burbot is generally smaller and doesn't need quite the cooking time of a large piece of halibut or cod.

Dredge, deep fry until golden brown and delicious, enjoy.


----------



## Dodger

Mtnbeer said:


> Dodger.
> I was not intending hostility in responding to you . If it came off that way, I apologize. I tend to be a stickler for details and sometimes get a little too fired up.
> 
> Regardless, I do want to say, I agree with you Dodger, in that all this is driven by human preferences and not biology. People prefer kokanee and lake trout and not burbot. Regardless of how they got there, that's the management regime we are in.


Thanks Mtnbeer. I apologize too if I was too quick to interpret unintended hostility. I lived in VA for 5 years and caught stripers from the shore. After they were made a game fish, VA really closed things off. I misunderstood the effect of the rule change on the rest of the Atlantic seaboard.

I really don't come here to fight with people. I think we are all just passionate about talking what we are passionate about.


----------



## Mtnbeer

Dodger said:


> Thanks Mtnbeer. I apologize too if I was too quick to interpret unintended hostility. I lived in VA for 5 years and caught stripers from the shore. After they were made a game fish, VA really closed things off. I misunderstood the effect of the rule change on the rest of the Atlantic seaboard.
> 
> I really don't come here to fight with people. I think we are all just passionate about talking what we are passionate about.


It's all good. Like you, I try to be helpful to folks. As longbow said, I'm a fish and wildlife management consultant and I can come across as a smart ass sometimes on issues. I try to work on being better about it, but sometimes revert to old habits.

By the way, I'm originally from the best Virginia, West Virginia. :mrgreen:


----------



## Dodger

Mtnbeer said:


> It's all good. Like you, I try to be helpful to folks. As longbow said, I'm a fish and wildlife management consultant and I can come across as a smart ass sometimes on issues. I try to work on being better about it, but sometimes revert to old habits.
> 
> By the way, I'm originally from the best Virginia, West Virginia. :mrgreen:


I lived in NOVA. You win, and by a lot. :grin:


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Dodger said:


> I'm really glad you are getting some fish on the troll Mr. I hope you are finding plenty of salmon at the end of your lines. Really makes me happy to hear that.


I still have some learning to do on the salmon. We have have caught a few but have not torn them up like we have the trout. All in time I guess.


----------



## Dodger

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I still have some learning to do on the salmon. We have have caught a few but have not torn them up like we have the trout. All in time I guess.


Let me know when you want to catch a few. I'll go up there with you/take you on my boat/meet you there, whatever. Last year June at Strawberry was amazing. May, July, and August at the Gorge were incredible.


----------



## 30-06-hunter

Dodger said:


> Let me know when you want to catch a few. I'll go up there with you/take you on my boat/meet you there, whatever. Last year June at Strawberry was amazing. May, July, and August at the Gorge were incredible.


I may take you up on this if I can't pick up a boat before spring, always willing to split fuel cost for a good time on the water.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner

Dodger said:


> Let me know when you want to catch a few. I'll go up there with you/take you on my boat/meet you there, whatever. Last year June at Strawberry was amazing. May, July, and August at the Gorge were incredible.


Sounds good. We have a pontoon with downriggers a fishfinder and a pretty fair amount tackle. It would be a good time.

Still considering this burbot bash. The wife is out for sure but I might shoot up there and give it a rip.


----------



## Dodger

30-06-hunter said:


> I may take you up on this if I can't pick up a boat before spring, always willing to split fuel cost for a good time on the water.


Let me know, I'll be killing them all summer in one place or another.



Mr Muleskinner said:


> Sounds good. We have a pontoon with downriggers a fishfinder and a pretty fair amount tackle. It would be a good time.
> 
> Still considering this burbot bash. The wife is out for sure but I might shoot up there and give it a rip.


Your boat or mine. Whatever works. You just let me know.

I'm not really into the tournaments and derbys. I just go to catch fish. And I don't usually catch as many when the derbies are going on.


----------



## 30-06-hunter

Dodger said:


> Let me know, I'll be killing them all summer in one place or another.


Do you take your boat up to FG during the winter months or is there enough open water? I have been itching to get out.


----------



## Dodger

30-06-hunter said:


> Do you take your boat up to FG during the winter months or is there enough open water? I have been itching to get out.


The latest I've had it out is the beginning of December.

There can be open water in Linwood Bay and sometimes down in the canyon. But it can get pretty hazardous down in the canyon this time of year.

Right now on the Lucerne Valley Marina Cam someone is launching a boat so there's open water in Linwood Bay. Linwood will freeze every couple of years or so, but it's around Valentines Day and is only safe for a few days usually.

I'm a salmon guy though so I don't really have a lot of draw to go up there during the winter, except to do my part on burbot and I do that before the freeze.


----------



## wyogoob

Daisy said:


> Burbot are native to the Wind/Bighorn drainage in Wyoming. They were illegally introduced into the upper Green River drainage in the early 1990's. They have quickly migrated downstream, through Fontenelle, through FG, and it would not surprise me to find limited populations of them in Lake Powell at this time. WYFG did not stock them into FG.


That is correct.

.


----------



## DocEsox

*yummy*

Have caught many burbot on the upper Missouri and they are all very tasty...have a really weird tongue and the bigger ones try to wrap around your hand like an eel...but they are very good eating. Tons of them in Alaska....they are heavily fished through the ice. They spawn in mid winter and can't take water above 55 degrees. They are voracious feeders...not sure how they'll impact the fishery longterm but most of are fisheries in the US don't resemble the native fish very well....to many imports. The do exist west of the Rockies in northern Montana and Washington....all over in Canada. Bon apetite!!

Brian


----------



## one8sevenn

FG is a world class Kokanee Fishery, a Lake Trout hot spot, and a productive Smallmouth Bass fishery. Both DNR's want to protect that and the Burbot stand in their way. The DNR will always cater to the masses who fund their program (Which is smart.) 

People want Kokanee and the DNR will give them Kokanee. Kill all the Perch at Fish Lake and kill all the Burbot at Flaming Gorge. The kokanee reigns supreme. 

Pretty soon every cold water lake in the state will have kokanee, because that is what the people want. The DNR will give the people what they want and that included catching stocker sterile hatchery Rainbows in every lake. Electric Lake and Fish Lake are only the beginning of the Kokanee revolution. 

Can Kokanee over-populate? Sure, just look at Porcupine and the amount of 10" males that spawn every year.

**Side Note** Colorado allows for snagging of kokanee in certain lakes/rivers in a period during the fall and I think Porcupine would be a great candidate to experiment this philosophy on. 

I think the popularity of Burbot fishing at the Gorge warrants the stocking of them into another lake, but it can't interfere with the almighty Kokanee salmon.

Porcupine, Echo, and a few other lakes with lack luster fishing that are not in the coveted Green River / Colorado River drainage would be a good place to start.

If the DNR is into that sort of thing, but I doubt it. 

;-)


----------



## EricH

We used to catch them by the sled load ice fishing as a kid in Minnesota and I got some huge ones when I lived in Alaska. As has been said before, they are slimy and stink on the outside but are light and mild on the inside. Skin them like a catfish and cut out the backstraps. Only the biggest ones have belly meat thicker than a slice of bacon. This is my 39 3/4" burbot from last year.


----------



## 30-06-hunter

EricH said:


> We used to catch them by the sled load ice fishing as a kid in Minnesota and I got some huge ones when I lived in Alaska. As has been said before, they are slimy and stink on the outside but are light and mild on the inside. Skin them like a catfish and cut out the backstraps. Only the biggest ones have belly meat thicker than a slice of bacon. This is my 39 3/4" burbot from last year.


Sweet, where was it caught?


----------



## EricH

30-06-hunter said:


> Sweet, where was it caught?


George Lake near Delta Junction AK.


----------



## brookieguy1

one8sevenn said:


> FG is a world class Kokanee Fishery, a Lake Trout hot spot, and a productive Smallmouth Bass fishery. Both DNR's want to protect that and the Burbot stand in their way. The DNR will always cater to the masses who fund their program (Which is smart.)
> 
> People want Kokanee and the DNR will give them Kokanee. Kill all the Perch at Fish Lake and kill all the Burbot at Flaming Gorge. The kokanee reigns supreme.
> 
> Pretty soon every cold water lake in the state will have kokanee, because that is what the people want. The DNR will give the people what they want and that included catching stocker sterile hatchery Rainbows in every lake. Electric Lake and Fish Lake are only the beginning of the Kokanee revolution.
> 
> Can Kokanee over-populate? Sure, just look at Porcupine and the amount of 10" males that spawn every year.
> 
> **Side Note** Colorado allows for snagging of kokanee in certain lakes/rivers in a period during the fall and I think Porcupine would be a great candidate to experiment this philosophy on.
> 
> I think the popularity of Burbot fishing at the Gorge warrants the stocking of them into another lake, but it can't interfere with the almighty Kokanee salmon.
> 
> Porcupine, Echo, and a few other lakes with lack luster fishing that are not in the coveted Green River / Colorado River drainage would be a good place to start.
> 
> If the DNR is into that sort of thing, but I doubt it.
> 
> ;-)


This whole post.....I humbly disagree. You're jumping to some huge and wrong conclusions.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish

brookieguy1 said:


> This whole post.....I humbly disagree. You're jumping to some huge and wrong conclusions.


Please explain


----------

