# KSL article new elk hunting proposals.



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Sounds interesting.









Utah wildlife agency proposes changes to elk hunting as popularity soars


With Utah's current elk management plan set to expire, wildlife officials are proposing a new plan to manage elk populations as elk hunts becomes more and more popular.




www.ksl.com


----------



## Ray (May 10, 2018)

What part of the central mountains do you think they’ll make any bull?


----------



## bthewilde (Feb 8, 2018)

I was just reading this, I couldn’t stop thinking about the numbers. Wow! 5 and 9 hour sell outs vs 77 and 84 days just 8 years ago!!? And the applicants, it’s amazing anyone gets anything.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Ray said:


> What part of the central mountains do you think they’ll make any bull?


Moroni hills


----------



## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

I've seen a lot of those ideas proposed right here on this site.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Not sure I completely understand their proposals at a cursory glance, but I don't like the sound of it thus far. 



bthewilde said:


> I was just reading this, I couldn’t stop thinking about the numbers. Wow! 5 and 9 hour sell outs vs 77 and 84 days just 8 years ago!!? And the applicants, it’s amazing anyone gets anything.


There was already an upward trend in 2018 and 2019. You could see it in the field, and tags were selling out in say 10 to 20 days or something like that. 2020 happened, and it's been crazy ever since. I think we've come to an end of an era honestly. I plan on grouse hunting a lot more in the future.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

. I think we've come to an end of an era honestly. I plan on grouse hunting a lot more in the future.

I'm with you! I've seen nothing but a plane taking a nosedive that's about to go splat on the ground. 

The DWR is in panic mode now and trying to fix what they've screwed up the last 20 years. Why do you think they are "targeting" the youth with all the opportunities for hunts they offer them? They know the "old timers" (like myself) are out there and are tired of the BS and mismanagement of the game and wont play the game they offer. Won't take long before these youth hunters are adults (by age, not mentality) and understand it isn't like it was when they were kids and give it up to.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

I'm not an old timer yet, but I can definately see the end coming for myself within the next 5 to 10 years or so, new elk plan or no. Maybe sooner considering i'm by myself all the time. At some point I won't be able to pack out an elk on my own.

As the elk plan goes, I'm watching the video presentation now, and one thing I've noticed is they are doing away with Archers choice. You'll have to get a bull tag (or a spike tag I'm presuming), and a separate cow tag. The question I have, is are those archer cow tags limited? Cause if they are, the biggest reason I hunt archery just left the building with Elvis.







EDIT: 
Looks like they want to split the current rifle season into two separate 7 day hunts. Early and late.
So it will be like general muzzy is currently, you've got 1 weekend to hunt it unless you take the week off from work.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The general elk provisions, including the archery changes to bull only, are what you get when people start crying about “5 hours wasn’t enough time for me to get a tag!!!!”

So what is the result? You can’t have everyone running to archery and killing all the cows. So we take cows out of archery general elk hunting and leave archery tags unlimited. You can’t have tags sell out in 5-8 hours! So you’ll get one weekend to hunt. The people that prioritize a tag and know how to open a web browser on their phone, regardless of where they are at, will hunt the first weekend for elk. Everyone else will hunt the second weekend.

All because people don’t think it’s “fair” to have to spend 30 seconds to get in a virtual line (or have to go in person) at the time appointed. You asked for changes, and this is what you get. (“You is the proverbial you, not anyone in specific…although there are plenty of “yous” on this forum.)


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Lone_Hunter said:


> As the elk plan goes, I'm watching the video presentation now, and one thing I've noticed is they are doing away with Archers choice. You'll have to get a bull tag (or a spike tag I'm presuming), and a separate cow tag. The question I have, is are those archer cow tags limited? Cause if they are, the biggest reason I hunt archery just left the building with Elvis.


FOOK! GAWD DAMIT! Fook this fooking state! Yep. The golden era is over. I remember several years ago thinking that the whole deer tag situation was starting to suck but at least there isn't much interest in general season elk. Hahaha sweet summer child CCG. Naive little dumbass you are. If anyone is starting to think that they can recoup their lost opportunities by branching out into nonres opportunities in other states I have some unfortunate news for you. The walls are closing in all around.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Hey, wait tell you get a load of this. This has to be an early april fools joke, or something that is being proposed specifically for HAMS hunts. No way this can be the suggested rules for everyone, on every unit going forward. 



https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac_minutes/2022-11-emerging-technology-statement.pdf




https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac_minutes/memorandum-2022-11-technology-recommendations.pdf


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Hey, wait tell you get a load of this. This has to be an early april fools joke, or something that is being proposed specifically for HAMS hunts. No way this can be the suggested rules for everyone, on every unit going forward.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are not the suggested rules for everyone on every unit going forward. Says right in there these are definitions for HAMS hunts and future restricted weapon type hunts.


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> The general elk provisions, including the archery changes to bull only, are what you get when people start crying about “5 hours wasn’t enough time for me to get a tag!!!!”
> 
> So what is the result? You can’t have everyone running to archery and killing all the cows. So we take cows out of archery general elk hunting and leave archery tags unlimited. You can’t have tags sell out in 5-8 hours! So you’ll get one weekend to hunt. The people that prioritize a tag and know how to open a web browser on their phone, regardless of where they are at, will hunt the first weekend for elk. Everyone else will hunt the second weekend.
> 
> All because people don’t think it’s “fair” to have to spend 30 seconds to get in a virtual line (or have to go in person) at the time appointed. You asked for changes, and this is what you get. (“You is the proverbial you, not anyone in specific…although there are plenty of “yous” on this forum.)


So Niller, you really think they are taking away archery OTC cow tags because folks complained about the rifle tags selling out too quickly? I don't see the connection man. I understand you have an axe to grind on this issue but that's a bit of a stretch, maybe I am misunderstanding you?

I think this general season proposal is great--Those that know how to open a browser can get their first week tag and have plenty of time to have a great hunt and those that don't can also have a great 7 day hunt in week 2 and kids can hunt both. I bet they offer up a lot of cow elk archery only tags that go undrawn and end up on the left over list, at least for the next several years. Plus with the new general season areas guys are going to have a lot of opportunity, especially this first year on those newly open hunt areas. There is little downside to this Niller, now get back to sharpening that axe my friend!


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> You asked for changes, and this is what you get.



Isn't that just it? Same thing with the RGGSENM. We sit and cry foul and ask for changes, then they change it to the RGGSENP. 


change rarely results in everyone (both sides) being happy. Rather, change means compromise which results in everyone being mad.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

TPrawitt91 said:


> These are not the suggested rules for everyone on every unit going forward. Says right in there these are definitions for HAMS hunts and future restricted weapon type hunts.


Your correct. I went back and reread it more slowly.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Your correct. I went back and reread it more slowly.


You're*


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

colorcountrygunner said:


> You're*


Yeah yeah,

Anywho, minor note I picked up in the elk plan video, some on the forum were wondering how many multiseason tags are being sold in relation to the 15,000 tags (spike). Apparenntly its about 4500 tags,(close to 1/3rd i guess) and they want to cap those tags at that number going forward.

Considering the changes to archery, not sure how the cow tag is going to work on that yet, they didn't say, but assuming it's limited number, or worse yet part of the antlerless draw, then the appeal of a multiseason tag just went down some. Also have to wonder if that archery cow tag is unlimited, in that case i'd say their double dipping into our pockets.


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Lone_Hunter said:


> Considering the changes to archery, not sure how the cow tag is going to work on that yet, they didn't say, but assuming it's limited number, or worse yet part of the antlerless draw, then the appeal of a multiseason tag just went down some. Also have to wonder if that archery cow tag is unlimited, in that case i'd say their double dipping into our pockets.



Archery cow only tags will be placed in the antlerless draw which takes place in the spring with all the other antlerless tags. You will have to draw (and pay for) one of these tags and hunt during specified season dates/unit(s) and such. I bet they are easy to draw and some may go leftover. But to your point, you will be forking over another $50 if you want the opportunity to kill a cow and another $50 if you want to kill a spike or any bull. DWR isn't double dipping as you will be able to kill two elk because you will have two tags whereas before you could only kill one.


----------



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I can’t wait until we welcome another 1.1 million people to Utah over the next 20 years. 🥹


----------



## Sidviciouser (9 mo ago)

Didn't we already have 15,000 any bull elk tags for the season? Now they are doubling the hunting and cutting the time in half? Am I reading that right?


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Sidviciouser said:


> Didn't we already have 15,000 any bull elk tags for the season? Now they are doubling the hunting and cutting the time in half? Am I reading that right?


Actually there were 17,500.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Fowlmouth said:


> I can’t wait until we welcome another 1.1 million people to Utah over the next 20 years. 🥹


It's going to be beautiful, innit? 🙄


----------



## Sidviciouser (9 mo ago)

middlefork said:


> Actually there were 17,500.


So 2,500 less hunters on opening weekend and 15,000 new hunters the next weekend.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Airborne said:


> So Niller, you really think they are taking away archery OTC cow tags because folks complained about the rifle tags selling out too quickly?


That's overly-simplistic for what I'm thinking and saying, but in the simplistic reduction---yes, it is a down stream consequence of a whiney group of people calling foul. 

You see, people are calling for change. We can't simply have OTC permits sell out in 8 hours. That just isn't possible, so some foolishly are calling to put the one single OTC non-archery opportunity we have left in the state into a draw. (Can you believe the craziness of that idea? Say it out load in the mirror without smacking yourself...I bet it can't be done!) So the elk plan committee and the DWR are hearing all this belly-aching and saying "Oh my! Something must be done!!!" All this talk is forcing more people to pick up a bow. In fact, I've read that very retort countless times on this very forum. "If you want to hunt, pick up a bow and go hunt! Unless you are not man enough..." (Okay, I added that last part, but you've read that same ish I've read, and that is the sentiment behind the "pick up a bow and go hunt" crowd. 

There is also a lot of talk of giving more and more preferences and advantages to archery hunters in this state. (You see multiple of them in this very plan proposal.) So, more and more people are heeding the call from the hunting machine archers out there to "pick up a bow and go and hunt!" If you want elk to survive, you can't kill all the cows. So if you're going to have unlimited OTC archery elk tags, and more and more rifle and muzzy hunters are pushed to archery to hunt because foolish or well-intentioned but misguided folks want to make changes to systems that don't need changing that make it harder to hunt, taking cows out of unlimited archery hunts is a down stream consequence. So yes, whining and belly-aching about the "unfair" OTC system has caused this to occur, in an over-simplistic summation of my thoughts. 




Airborne said:


> I think this general season proposal is great--Those that know how to open a browser can get their first week tag and have plenty of time to have a great hunt and those that don't can also have a great 7 day hunt in week 2 and kids can hunt both. I bet they offer up a lot of cow elk archery only tags that go undrawn and end up on the left over list, at least for the next several years. Plus with the new general season areas guys are going to have a lot of opportunity, especially this first year on those newly open hunt areas.


I actually don't mind any of the proposals on general elk and general spike permits other than I don't think youth spike permits should be unlimited. I thought I read somewhere in there that youth spike permits would be unlimited, and if I was mistaken, I take it back. But...I think I read that. If I read that correctly, I don't agree with that provision. The rest I can live with very easily. It kind of sucks to only get one weekend to hunt spikes going forward, but due to some unusual work requirements this year I didn't even hunt on my tag. (Sorry to those that missed out on a spike tag...but I'm not THAT sorry.) 



Airborne said:


> There is little downside to this Niller, now get back to sharpening that axe my friend!


I have one axe to grind when it comes to Utah hunting, and it is this: I really don't like when people try to make it harder for both you and me to hunt. In fact, I despise the idea, and I judge those people severely. If someone is proposing any idea that makes it harder for you and for me to go hunt, I will hate that idea and I will speak out against it. That's my axe I grind, nothing more. Draw systems are stupid, there isn't a good one out there. It is just different versions in different states of the same old stupid system. I realize we need to do them because not everyone can get a tag, but leave one last OTC opportunity for us, please. Just one. Doesn't seem like a lot to ask, actually. But for some, they like to make it harder for people to hunt. I'm not one of those people.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Vanilla, I agree with a lot of your take on this. However, they are now recommending 2 OTC elk options that are unlimited in tags. Something had to give in terms of elk management and the demand for tags, but you can't say it's truly limiting people from getting tags if there is now going to be an unlimited rifle tag as well. It might be a hard hunt but anyone that has complained that they "can't" get a tag will always be able to get a tag without having to "pick up a bow, and go hunt." Just a thought.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Correct.

My ire is to those that wanted it in a draw and limiting it, not the current proposal.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Honestly, here's another way to skin the elk. Why not set harvest objective quotas on each subunit, implement mandatory reporting 24-48hrs after a kill, have a call in number (like they already do for cougars/bears) that you check each morning, and have unlimited OTC bull/spike tags? 

The hunt might run 2 weeks or it might run 2 days in your preferred unit.


----------



## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Vanilla said:


> The general elk provisions, including the archery changes to bull only, are what you get when people start crying about “5 hours wasn’t enough time for me to get a tag!!!!”
> 
> So what is the result? You can’t have everyone running to archery and killing all the cows. So we take cows out of archery general elk hunting and leave archery tags unlimited. You can’t have tags sell out in 5-8 hours! So you’ll get one weekend to hunt. The people that prioritize a tag and know how to open a web browser on their phone, regardless of where they are at, will hunt the first weekend for elk. Everyone else will hunt the second weekend.
> 
> All because people don’t think it’s “fair” to have to spend 30 seconds to get in a virtual line (or have to go in person) at the time appointed. You asked for changes, and this is what you get. (“You is the proverbial you, not anyone in specific…although there are plenty of “yous” on this forum.)


Nearly all the comments I submit every year are "please don't make any changes..".... Maybe I'm the only one saying that


----------



## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Spike unit hunt is the full hunt not split like the anybull units


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

rtockstein said:


> Nearly all the comments I submit every year are "please don't make any changes..".... Maybe I'm the only one saying that


You are not! We may be the only two, but you are not alone.


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> Honestly, here's another way to skin the elk. Why not set harvest objective quotas on each subunit, implement mandatory reporting 24-48hrs after a kill, have a call in number (like they already do for cougars/bears) that you check each morning, and have unlimited OTC bull/spike tags?
> 
> The hunt might run 2 weeks or it might run 2 days in your preferred unit.


Who in the hell hunts in areas will cell phone service!  You're gonna need to comp me a satellite phone for my annual uintas elk hunt, or we can settle up with a Ptarmigan hunt!


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Airborne said:


> Who in the hell hunts in areas will cell phone service!  You're gonna need to comp me a satellite phone for my annual uintas elk hunt, or we can settle up with a Ptarmigan hunt!


I figure if they can make those types of requirements work up here in the Northland, even on hunts where folks are flying by Supercub into wilderness that makes the Uintas look like Thanksgiving Point, then folks in Utardia could figure out how to make it work. 

One consistent approach is to have an arrangement with a buddy or spouse back home to check each day and to message the hunters in the field via InReach/etc if the hunt is still open or if a closure has been announced.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

All the mighty hunters in the FB hunting groups are constantly calling for drastic tag reductions and they think that nobody under any circumstances should ever shoot a 2 point. Some hunters just really seem to hate hunting. I'm going to give Vanilla cred points for at least going out and putting crosshairs on something this year!


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> The hunt might run 2 weeks or it might run 2 days in your preferred unit.


So you want to concentrate everyone into hunting the first two weeks? or first week? Or opening weekend?

No. Please no.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

PBH said:


> So you want to concentrate everyone into hunting the first two weeks? or first week? Or opening weekend?
> 
> No. Please no.


He doesn't care what happens to our crumbling empire, he's just here for the schadenfreude.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> He doesn't care what happens to our crumbling empire, he's just here for the schadenfreude.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I just got done reading comments on the proposals on the DWR FB page until my brain couldn't take it anymore. My brane fills so dum now. 🤪


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I just got done reading comments on the proposals on the DWR FB page until my brain couldn't take it anymore. My brane fills so dum now. 🤪


You're probably just not getting enough selenium


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Airborne said:


> Archery cow only tags will be placed in the antlerless draw which takes place in the spring with all the other antlerless tags. You will have to draw (and pay for) one of these tags and hunt during specified season dates/unit(s) and such. I bet they are easy to draw and some may go leftover. But to your point, you will be forking over another $50 if you want the opportunity to kill a cow and another $50 if you want to kill a spike or any bull. DWR isn't double dipping as you will be able to kill two elk because you will have two tags whereas before you could only kill one.



I was thinking about this. Nobody I know, hunts general season archery for spikes, nor bothers with the any bull units in any capacity. It has always been about getting a cow elk on a spike unit, purely for the meat. What I find ironic, is I figured rifle or muzzy would go to a draw. In reality, Archery, for all intents and purposes, will probably be going to a draw under these proposed changes. If so, I highly doubt there will be any leftover cow tags. Everyone I know, including myself, will just apply for the cow tag and probably not even bother with the spike tag.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Lone_Hunter said:


> I was thinking about this. Nobody I know, hunts general season archery for spikes, nor bothers with the any bull units in any capacity. It has always been about getting a cow elk on a spike unit, purely for the meat. What I find ironic, is I figured rifle or muzzy would go to a draw. In reality, Archery, for all intents and purposes, will probably be going to a draw under these proposed changes. If so, I highly doubt there will be any leftover cow tags. Everyone I know, including myself, will just apply for the cow tag and probably not even bother with the spike tag.


I think this is true for spike units, but I would say plenty of people buy the archery any bull tag fully intending on going after a bull. I was one of them this year, would have had it too if it weren't for those meddling cow elk getting in the way...twice. I do have to also admit that I would have shot a cow, just would rather shoot a bull.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Lone_Hunter said:


> I was thinking about this. Nobody I know, hunts general season archery for spikes, nor bothers with the any bull units in any capacity. It has always been about getting a cow elk on a spike unit, purely for the meat. What I find ironic, is I figured rifle or muzzy would go to a draw. In reality, Archery, for all intents and purposes, will probably be going to a draw under these proposed changes. If so, I highly doubt there will be any leftover cow tags. Everyone I know, including myself, will just apply for the cow tag and probably not even bother with the spike tag.


I agree with this. Bet ya not many gs archery elk hunters on the spike unit go out of their way to pass cows for a spike. Who cares about shooting a spike? If I had to choose one over the other I would choose cows just because there are so many more to potentially take a whack at. Making the gs archery elk hunts spike only on LE units sounds like kind of a tough hunt.


----------



## Wyo2ut (Aug 2, 2016)

I am hoping that all of you with strong opinions are sharing those opinions to the appropriate RACs. The press release gives the link to share those thoughts. I sent out my opinions already....remember, this is just a proposal at this point.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Six additional general-season any bull elk hunting units in the Nine Mile, Paunsaugunt, West Desert, Central Mountains, Book Cliffs and Box Elder areas across the state, while also adding a new general-season spike hunt in the Diamond Mountain unit in northeast Utah.
I was under the impression that the Book Cliffs and Central Mountains units would be bigger. They pretty much just made an any elk area in a cow hunt area.

Book Cliffs Flow Canyon and Central Mountains Moroni Hills. 

Lol it does not seem they added much area with a ton of elk for the orange army to hunt.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

So I just got done watching the elk plan presentation video by Dax Mangus and I gotta tell ya...I do like the sounds of some of it. Specifically what they are proposing for limited entry. The inches at any cost crowd will probably bitch, moan, weep, wail, blubber, gnash teeth, and whatever else, but if they actually give a fugg about their kids or grandkids ever getting to enjoy a LE elk hunt, they should see the wisdom in it. It sparked a little hope in me that I can finish my timeout period, start putting in for elk again and hopefully draw a mid-tier archery elk tag again while I am still somewhat youngish. I'm just gonna have to settle for hunting 6 year old bulls instead of 7 year old bulls. Ah. Gee. Darn. I'm still balling up my fists and stomping about the idea of giving up hunters choice archery though. Time will tell how all this plays out. I'm sure I will vascillate between it's all gonna be okay and it's the end of the world as we go.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

If the elk changes pass then it is time for the Multi-Season tags to be good for only one rifle season and either archery or muzzleloader, not both. That gives the tag holder 2 seasons, can kill every year, no service hours, no on-line course.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Packout said:


> If the elk changes pass then it is time for the Multi-Season tags to be good for only one rifle season and either archery or muzzleloader, not both. That gives the tag holder 2 seasons, can kill every year, no service hours, no on-line course.


Honestly that kinda defeats the point of multiseason from the end user's point of view. Archer's choice going away really takes some of the allure out the tag on it's own, let alone dropping an entire season out of the tag. I've been on that tag since they first came out with it, and I'm reevaluating if I'll get another under these proposed changes. Mind you, i've been hunting spike units for the last 10 years, and not any bull. From my perspective on the multiseason tag:


Archery, was the most important season, because of archers choice. This was the most important hunt.
Rifle is basically an exercise in working around the orange army, and hiking around the woods with a long gun.
Muzzy is basically freezing your butt off in the morning, trying to find where in the hell the elk went.

In both rifle, and muzzy, your basically looking for a needle in a stack of needles, located somewhere in a haypile. 

I should mention I didn't jump to multiseason tags just because they came out with them. I hunted rifle for several years, decided i hated the orange army, switched to muzzy for a couple years, DWR came out with the multiseason tag, and I remembered that my dad gave me an old bow that I had tucked away in the basement. Decdied, what the hell, I'll give DWR my money and try it out. Ended up shanking a cow, on day 1 with that bow, on my first archery season ever. Talk about dumb luck. Been on multiseason since. I had it in my head that if I had to pick just ONE season, it would be archery, because of...... archer's choice. Everything else is just giving DWR money to hike in the mountains with a single digit percentage chance of seeing a two horned unicorn.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of busting my ass for nothing in return. That's about the summation of multiseason on a spike unit 99% of the time. In my head, i'm plotting my vengence on all those little bombers who scared the **** out of me while I've been elk hunting.


----------



## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Packout said:


> If the elk changes pass then it is time for the Multi-Season tags to be good for only one rifle season and either archery or muzzleloader, not both. That gives the tag holder 2 seasons, can kill every year, no service hours, no on-line course.


But I really like the ability to hunt through 4 months, with 3 different weapons, without harvesting anything. 

Ha well I'd rather harvest something and I try my hardest to do so but generally don't plan to arrow a cow until extended if I don't get a bull. 

I really enjoy that tag because I get to archery hunt for bulls in a good spot early season when it's too hot for the crowds with the option of tagging a cow if I'm desperate, then I get to hike way in with my rifle backpacking and stay away from the crowds and hope I find a bull, and I haven't muzzy hunted yet but I'm looking forward to freezing my butt off trying to figure out where the elk went before I pick up a bow again. 

For me, it's all about time in the woods chasing animals and hoping I harvest something before running out of meat.


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I can't imagine buying a $150 multi-season tag, under the current system, with the goal to whack a cow on it. Most hunters, IMO, are looking for a bull on that tag.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I was under the impression that tag fees were going up next year. $220.00 for the multi season tag.

Eliminating the cow option on archery may effect numbers a bit. But eliminating the option of hunting a cow tag on overlapping seasons will be a big deal IMO.


----------



## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

The legislators still have to vote on the fee increases, 
I'm a little surprised about the over lapping cow hunts going away. It may not pass I was under the impression they wanted those tags filled.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I talked to somebody who is heavily involved with these proposals and he says that the archery cow elk tags will likely be over the counter and statewide at least for the first while. The only bad part is that if you buy the archery cow tag it zeroes your cow elk points so if you like hunting archery cow elk and then the later cow seasons with any legal weapon you can't have your cake and eat it too, you will have to choose.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I talked to somebody who is heavily involved with these proposals and he says that the archery cow elk tags will likely be over the counter and statewide at least for the first while. The only bad part is that if you buy the archery cow tag it zeroes your cow elk points so if you like hunting archery cow elk and then the later cow seasons with any legal weapon you can't have your cake and eat it too, you will have to choose.


Personally, I like that. It's a good middle of the road compromise.


----------



## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I talked to somebody who is heavily involved with these proposals and he says that the archery cow elk tags will likely be over the counter and statewide at least for the first while. The only bad part is that if you buy the archery cow tag it zeroes your cow elk points so if you like hunting archery cow elk and then the later cow seasons with any legal weapon you can't have your cake and eat it too, you will have to choose.


Thanks for the update! Personally, I like the proposal also.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

TPrawitt91 said:


> Personally, I like that. It's a good middle of the road compromise.


I like it too. Now i gotta figure out which choice I want to make. I love bowhunting, so I will probably just buy the archery cow tag and have the possibility to kill 2 elk each GS archery season.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

You know, if more folks would just target calves instead of shooting adult cows on the antlerless hunt, Utah could support a much higher annual slaughter rate.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I like it too. Now i gotta figure out which choice I want to make. I love bowhunting, so I will probably just buy the archery cow tag and have the possibility to kill 2 elk each GS archery season.


Yeah save the rifles for the Deer and Antelopes


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> You know, if more folks would just target calves instead of shooting adult cows on the antlerless hunt, Utah could support a much higher annual slaughter rate.


What is the survival rate for calves going through their first winter anyway? Also, how does it compare to that of a yearling or older cow? You might be on to something.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> What is the survival rate for calves going through their first winter anyway? Also, how does it compare to that of a yearling or older cow? You might be on to something.


There have been a handful of studies on this over the years, both in the states and in Europe. Sweden in particular has a ton of data on this for moose. 

I don't remember offhand the average calf mortality rate for elk, but many big game species have a +50% mortality for the 1st year of life--which is why twins and triplets are so common in ungulates. And the kicker is, hunting young of the year is mostly a non-additive predation. Meaning that if there are 100 calves (numbers and ratios are completely fabricated here, just for demonstrative purposes) and if 50/100 calves typically survive to be 1 yr old (without hunting), having hunters kill 50 calves will not result in 0/100 calves surviving. Total calf mortality will be somewhere between 50-100, but usually much closer to the 50 than to the 100. This is largely due to more resources and less competition on the landscape for the remaining calves. 

But, by focusing on killing calves, you preserve a higher number of breeding females in the population who will give birth the following year. Annual mortality rates tend to level off after 1-2 years for female ungulates and 4-6 years for males.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

johnnycake said:


> There have been a handful of studies on this over the years, both in the states and in Europe. Sweden in particular has a ton of data on this for moose.
> 
> I don't remember offhand the average calf mortality rate for elk, but many big game species have a +50% mortality for the 1st year of life--which is why twins and triplets are so common in ungulates. And the kicker is, hunting young of the year is mostly a non-additive predation. Meaning that if there are 100 calves (numbers and ratios are completely fabricated here, just for demonstrative purposes) and if 50/100 calves typically survive to be 1 yr old (without hunting), having hunters kill 50 calves will not result in 0/100 calves surviving. Total calf mortality will be somewhere between 50-100, but usually much closer to the 50 than to the 100. This is largely due to more resources and less competition on the landscape for the remaining calves.
> 
> But, by focusing on killing calves, you preserve a higher number of breeding females in the population who will give birth the following year. Annual mortality rates tend to level off after 1-2 years for female ungulates and 4-6 years for males.


Get this man a seat on the WB!


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

TPrawitt91 said:


> Get this man a seat on the WB!


His message might need a little polishing though. Giggling about baby murder might be hard for the less enlightened to accept as sound management.


----------



## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

This has been presented to the wildlife board and I imagine they understand it quite well. This isn't something that has been newly discovered. Besides, it seems to me that it is the killing of bulls that seems to give the board and RAC's the most heartburn. Fortunately, during some of the last few elk presentations to the board it has been shown with real data that maintaining old age class on elk units is counter productive and leaves a significant portion of older bulls dying of old age.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Dahlmer said:


> This has been presented to the wildlife board and I imagine they understand it quite well. This isn't something that has been newly discovered. Besides, it seems to me that it is the killing of bulls that seems to give the board and RAC's the most heartburn. Fortunately, during some of the last few elk presentations to the board it has been shown with real data that maintaining old age class on elk units is counter productive and leaves a significant portion of older bulls dying of old age.


Yet so many whine @sses will bawl their bags off when they hear about the plan to lower age objectives on the LE units. I can hear the screeching from the armchair biologists already.


----------



## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm not too worried about the board moving ahead with the change in age class. I think the RAC's will be a complete cluster though. Can't wait to see all of the recommendations that come out that process. Especially the southern RAC's.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

colorcountrygunner said:


> His message might need a little polishing though. Giggling about baby murder *might be hard for the less enlightened *to accept as sound management.


Sounds like a them problem.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Six additional general-season any bull elk hunting units in the Nine Mile, Paunsaugunt, West Desert, Central Mountains, Book Cliffs and Box Elder areas across the state, while also adding a new general-season spike hunt in the Diamond Mountain unit in northeast Utah.
> I was under the impression that the Book Cliffs and Central Mountains units would be bigger. They pretty much just made an any elk area in a cow hunt area.
> 
> Book Cliffs Flow Canyon and Central Mountains Moroni Hills.
> ...


Those Moroni hills hold more elk than many people think. The problem is, they are just hiding behind no trespassing signs.


----------



## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

The single most important change the DWR could make, would be to remove the LE rifle hunt out of the rut. That appears to be a topic they fear. Obviously the DER and Wildlife bird are still managed and owned by the special interest groups.
If killing bulls was truly a concern of the wildlife management administrators, removing a season that allows the most efficient long range weapon being used when the bull elk are at their absolutely most vulnerable time, should and would be their number 1 priority.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Bucksnbulls08 said:


> The single most important change the DWR could make, would be to remove the LE rifle hunt out of the rut. That appears to be a topic they fear. Obviously the DER and Wildlife bird are still managed and owned by the special interest groups.
> If killing bulls was truly a concern of the wildlife management administrators, removing a season that allows the most efficient long range weapon being used when the bull elk are at their absolutely most vulnerable time, should and would be their number 1 priority.


A couple things:

1- the special interest groups want the rifle out of the rut, so that’s a bit of a swing and a miss there.

2- They are not concerned about killing bulls. They WANT more bulls killed. There is a lot of data out there suggesting we are not killing enough bulls on many of the LE units. So, by your reasoning, we need MORE rifle rut tags, not less.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

One could argue that the September rifle hunt isn’t THE tag to have anymore. The muzzleloader seems to be prime. These mid seasons opening around the 1st of October might see more rut action than the September hunt these days


----------



## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I talked to somebody who is heavily involved with these proposals and he says that the archery cow elk tags will likely be over the counter and statewide at least for the first while. The only bad part is that if you buy the archery cow tag it zeroes your cow elk points so if you like hunting archery cow elk and then the later cow seasons with any legal weapon you can't have your cake and eat it too, you will have to choose.


This seems like it would be a very effective method in reducing the point creep issue on bull/buck draw tags. Have people forfeit their points if they buy an OTC bull/buck tag. It sure would piss people off, but I'd be all for it. It might extend the tag sell out time on that dreaded rifle elk GS season too. 



johnnycake said:


> You know, if more folks would just target calves instead of shooting adult cows on the antlerless hunt, Utah could support a much higher annual slaughter rate.


This is very likely to be my strategy if these cow tags are OTC and separate from the OTC bull tags.

I don't think it is feasible, but in the elk management plan proposal, they mentioned that cows of age 10-12(?) have very a reduced rate of producing calves compared to younger cows so targeting the oldest would help as well, I would think. I'm not sure how you'd judge cow age that closely in the field and it may be about as hard to kill one of those as an old bull.



MooseMeat said:


> One could argue that the September rifle hunt isn’t THE tag to have anymore. The muzzleloader seems to be prime. These mid seasons opening around the 1st of October might see more rut action than the September hunt these days


Shhhh...


----------



## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Next year the LE Elk muzzy hunt dates are smack in the middle of a full moon, something to think about. I hate hunting big game during a full moon but that's me


----------



## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

Bucksnbulls08 said:


> The single most important change the DWR could make, would be to remove the LE rifle hunt out of the rut. That appears to be a topic they fear. Obviously the DER and Wildlife bird are still managed and owned by the special interest groups.
> If killing bulls was truly a concern of the wildlife management administrators, removing a season that allows the most efficient long range weapon being used when the bull elk are at their absolutely most vulnerable time, should and would be their number 1 priority.


I don’t think I agree with either of your statements.

First, the DWR has recommended exactly that as part of the management plan Going forward. They want to shorten the early hunt to 5 days and reduce the allocatiom of early rifle tags to 10%. In addition, they want to open mid-season tags across all units and allocate the majority of the opportunity (30%) there.

Secondly, success ratios don’t support the premise that elk are somehow harder to kill later in the year. At least not during late hunts. They do seem to indicate success ratios are lower during mid season, although it’s hard to say if that is a result of increased hunting pressure (the mid-season hunt runs concurrently with the spike hunt) or elk being harder to find or less vulnerable.

Midseason success ratios from 2019-2021 are below.

Wasatch: ‘19 = 59%, ‘20 = 63.6%, ‘21 = 52.4%
Manti: ‘19 = 55%, ‘20 = 77.8%, ‘21 = 64.3%
Fish Lake = ‘19 = 71.4%, ‘20 = 61.9%, ‘21 = 56%

Diamond Mountain has also had a mid season hunt although no late hunt. I don’t know if there is a spike hunt there or not. But the success ratios are less compelling for your argument there.

‘19 = 90.9%, ‘20’ = 84.2%, ‘21 =


----------



## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

Diamond Mountain success ratios…


----------



## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

No spike hunt on Diamond currently. If the proposals pass, there will be a spike hunt on the diamond in 2023.


----------



## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

CPAjeff said:


> No spike hunt on Diamond currently. If the proposals pass, there will be a spike hunt on the diamond in 2023.


I would probably argue that competition has more to do with lower success ratios on other units vs elk being less vulnerable then.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

The easiest "fix" to the Elk hunts IMO, is to go to a draw for *ALL *Elk seasons and weapon. Bull's and Cows. Pick your hunt, i.e. Archery, Rifle, or ML and you apply for that hunt. You don't draw, then so be it. Simple and effective. Eliminate the Multi Season permits, or place a price tag to that option at a premium cost. $350+


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

If that is the “fix,” what problem do we have?


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Another interesting thing to me in the new proposals is the LE December archery elk hunts. I read that they will be OTC, but if you buy one they will use your points and then you have the usual 5 year waiting period. If I had a piggy bank full of elk points this wouldn't interest me much, but when I become eligible to apply for LE elk again in 2025 this might be worth a look. I think I will have to get out in the hills a bit these next couple Decembers and see what a December LE archery elk hunt might look like. I'm sure the success rates will be a good bit lower than any other LE elk hunt, but hey....opportunity. But then again if the new proposals curb point creep enough that I can draw a decent early season archery tag while I'm still in my 40s that will probably sound like a more attractive option.


----------



## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I get the need to mitigate the point creep issue, but it seems like there is a caveat with some of these proposals about losing points.

Want to hunt cow elk with a bow - lose your points.
Want to hunt bull elk in December - lose your points.

It's like the Seinfeld episode of the "No Soup for You" guy...


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> I get the need to mitigate the point creep issue, but it seems like there is a caveat with some of these proposals about losing points.
> 
> Want to hunt cow elk with a bow - lose your points.
> Want to hunt bull elk in December - lose your points.
> ...


It does kinda suck, but I guess it's all about compromise and balance. If you're primarily a bowhunter like me then it still gives you good opportunity. If you're a boomstick only guy it flushes a lot of the turds out of the point pool. I would love to be able to do hunters choice archery elk every year AND be able to do a good any legal weapon cow hunt every few years, but current demand doesn't allow it.

My concern with where things stand currently is what does the future hold as far as demand goes? These changes are nice and all, but if the line on the graph that represents tag demand continues shooting for the stratosphere, then all this "creative tag allocating" will amount to nothing more than thrashing and flailing in the water for a little bit longer before we inevitably drown.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

colorcountrygunner said:


> It does kinda suck, but I guess it's all about compromise and balance. If you're primarily a bowhunter like me then it still gives you good opportunity. If you're a boomstick only guy it flushes a lot of the turds out of the point pool. I would love to be able to do hunters choice archery elk every year AND be able to do a good any legal weapon cow hunt every few years, but current demand doesn't allow it.
> 
> My concern with where things stand currently is what does the future hold as far as demand goes? These changes are nice and all, but if the line on the graph that represents tag demand continues shooting for the stratosphere, then all this "creative tag allocating" will amount to nothing more than thrashing and flailing in the water for a little bit longer before we inevitably drown.


I'll bet some demand for archery permits will decrease this year. Overall demand doesn't seem to be slowing


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Another interesting thing to me in the new proposals is the LE December archery elk hunts. I read that they will be OTC, but if you buy one they will use your points and then you have the usual 5 year waiting period. If I had a piggy bank full of elk points this wouldn't interest me much, but when I become eligible to apply for LE elk again in 2025 this might be worth a look. I think I will have to get out in the hills a bit these next couple Decembers and see what a December LE archery elk hunt might look like. I'm sure the success rates will be a good bit lower than any other LE elk hunt, but hey....opportunity. But then again if the new proposals curb point creep enough that I can draw a decent early season archery tag while I'm still in my 40s that will probably sound like a more attractive option.


These hunts will be TOUGH. There’s going to be a lot of guys the first couple years who think they have what it takes and get a tag. Reality will definitely set in quick. I doubt success will be very high. Factor in access to many areas as well, it will make things even tougher. FS gates close by mid November in most units. WMAs start closing December 1 to motorized traffic… personally coming off a wait period in 2026, depending on other hunt draw odds at that time, I think I would probably do a tag the first year I’m eligible. I think the younger age class bulls will definitely be the ones most impacted by it. It would be cool if they’d let you shoot a cow too since it’s an LE tag with a 5 year wait period. There’s definitely some things to pay attention to and watch in the future.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> If that is the “fix,” what problem do we have?


The "problem" is complaints from some hunters that feel they are entitled or being screwed if they don't get to chase big game every year. *NEWS FLASH, *It's only going to get worse, not better.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

On the question on points, they need to go with a single set of points for deer and one set for elk. No more anterless and bull and buck points, just points. If you want to spend your 20 points on a cow or a doe so be it. 

I think that this would weed out quite a few people while giving opportunity to others.


----------



## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> The "problem" is complaints from some hunters that feel they are entitled or being screwed if they don't get to chase big game every year. *NEWS FLASH, *It's only going to get worse, not better.


I'm not sure about entitlement, but I'm fairly sure that yearly traditions and changing times are conflicting. I think about four years ago one of my inlaws was lamenting to me how the days of good hunting in Utah are over. I didn't agree with him at the time, but I hadn't been hunting here two or three decades either. Fast forward to the present and I think i finally agree with him. There's just too many people in Utah now, and with more people comes more hunters. Yearly traditions are becoming harder to keep, from traditional family camping spots, to traditional hunting spots.

On a side note, and it's just my opinion, that quality of life is inversely proportional to population density. Resource competition, and carrying capacity. I blame silicon slopes, and people being loud and proud on social media, bragging about how great Utah is. We would all be better off if the rest of the country thought that the only thing in Utah was Polygs and prairie dresses.


----------



## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

taxidermist said:


> The easiest "fix" to the Elk hunts IMO, is to go to a draw for *ALL *Elk seasons and weapon. Bull's and Cows. Pick your hunt, i.e. Archery, Rifle, or ML and you apply for that hunt. You don't draw, then so be it. Simple and effective. Eliminate the Multi Season permits, or place a price tag to that option at a premium cost. $350+


How about a different kind of draw. Submit an application of residency prior to a move into the state. No preference points this time. It's getting kind of crowded on the Wasatch front.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

APD said:


> How about a different kind of draw. Submit an application of residency prior to a move into the state. No preference points this time. It's getting kind of crowded on the Wasatch front.


I swear to God if I could just get good employment squared away in a state with a low population and decent hunting I would leave this Kalifornia Lite dumpster fire behind so fast! My wife even keeps saying she is all in on moving to Alaska. I really wonder if she could handle that kind of isolation from her family though. She likes hanging out with me and all, but not THAT much.


----------



## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

APD said:


> How about a different kind of draw. Submit an application of residency prior to a move into the state. No preference points this time. It's getting kind of crowded on the Wasatch front.


All California residents are automatically disqualified from any ‘successful’ results in that draw


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> All California residents are automatically disqualified from any ‘successful’ results in that draw


And we apply it retroactively. Lifelong 
Utah residents on the UWN will form a committee that makes exceptions for UWN Cali transplants that we like. We will let some of you prune pickers stay


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> The "problem" is complaints from some hunters that feel they are entitled or being screwed if they don't get to chase big game every year. *NEWS FLASH, *It's only going to get worse, not better.


Gotcha. That's not a problem I'm all that interested in even trying to solve, let alone taking very drastic measures to try and solve it. 

With the current elk proposals, there will literally be an opportunity for EVERY SINGLE PERSON that wants to hunt big game to be able to do so, and do it with any weapon. That seems to fix the issue above way better than just moving around point systems and making things more restrictive.


----------



## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I swear to God if I could just get good employment squared away in a state with a low population and decent hunting I would leave this Kalifornia Lite dumpster fire behind so fast! My wife even keeps saying she is all in on moving to Alaska. I really wonder if she could handle that kind of isolation from her family though. She likes hanging out with me and all, but not THAT much.


My wife has been trying to get me to do that for years. I just got back from AK and have some options for employment that pay better than what I'm making now, even with the cost of living factored in. If I had the balls to make the move it'd be great. It's hard to leave Utah but the increasing population and GSL issues are weighing on me. I really don't like living with neighbors on top of me, especially new transplants.


----------



## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

APD said:


> It's hard to leave Utah


No, it's really not.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

We (Utahns) may be blaming the west coast folk for moving here in droves, buying up the lands and all, but I think in the back of the minds of us Utards, we hold resentment that they sold a 800 square foot shack for millions and came here with cash and got a 3500 square foot home and still have a cool million left. 
I believe the majority of people hate change. I believe change is good IF the change is done properly. I guess whatever the DWR finally adopts and it becomes the new way of hunting will benefit many and many will be mad as hell. 

I'm grateful that I had 40+ years of chasing deer/elk when there wasn't any problems *drawing *a tag. If you wanted to go hunt, you went to Wolfs or Sunset sporting goods and got a tag and walked out. Also loved the many BIG BUCK contests held every year that gave you a chance at winning a Jeep, new rifle, etc. The entire family would go on the deer hunt. It was like a family reunion. Schools would close the Friday before the opener. It was called "deer hunt Friday" then UEA and now, Fall Break. 

You want to talk about "*the good old days"*? I just described what those days were. It's gone, dead, buried, will never come back to life. So if you want to hunt in Utah, you best jump on the train or you'll miss the short ride.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Lone_Hunter said:


> I'm not sure about entitlement, but I'm fairly sure that yearly traditions and changing times are conflicting. I think about four years ago one of my inlaws was lamenting to me how the days of good hunting in Utah are over. I didn't agree with him at the time, but I hadn't been hunting here two or three decades either. Fast forward to the present and I think i finally agree with him. There's just too many people in Utah now, and with more people comes more hunters. Yearly traditions are becoming harder to keep, from traditional family camping spots, to traditional hunting spots.
> 
> On a side note, and it's just my opinion, that quality of life is inversely proportional to population density. Resource competition, and carrying capacity. I blame silicon slopes, and people being loud and proud on social media, bragging about how great Utah is. We would all be better off if the rest of the country thought that the only thing in Utah was Polygs and prairie dresses.


There are plenty of rural area you can move to if the wasatch front is getting too crowded for your liking.


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I swear to God if I could just get good employment squared away in a state with a low population and decent hunting I would leave this Kalifornia Lite dumpster fire behind so fast! My wife even keeps saying she is all in on moving to Alaska. I really wonder if she could handle that kind of isolation from her family though. She likes hanging out with me and all, but not THAT much.





MooseMeat said:


> All California residents are automatically disqualified from any ‘successful’ results in that draw





colorcountrygunner said:


> And we apply it retroactively. Lifelong
> Utah residents on the UWN will form a committee that makes exceptions for UWN Cali transplants that we like. We will let some of you prune pickers stay


I get alot of amusement from the California comments(bashing). My dad was born in Montana and raised in Colorado. My mom was born and raised in the Salt Lake area.They met at Fort Douglas in WW2. They moved to California after the war. I was born and raised there. Moved here in 2000. We were saying the same thing about other folks 50 years ago. I had great dove, quail, duck and salt water fishing growing up in the 60s and 70s. I could surf in the morning and and hunt desert quail in the afternoon. Started getting crowded in the 80s and politically(all the transplants) changing in the 90s. It is challenging to see things change. I still laugh how when I met some people here, they said to me I was the Californian who hunts and fishes..


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Irish Lad said:


> I get alot of amusement from the California comments(bashing). My dad was born in Montana and raised in Colorado. My mom was born and raised in the Salt Lake area.They met at Fort Douglas in WW2. They moved to California after the war. I was born and raised there. Moved here in 2000. We were saying the same thing about other folks 50 years ago. I had great dove, quail, duck and salt water fishing growing up in the 60s and 70s. I could surf in the morning and and hunt desert quail in the afternoon. Started getting crowded in the 80s and politically(all the transplants) changing in the 90s. It is challenging to see things change. I still laugh how when I met some people here, they said to me I was the Californian who hunts and fishes..


I like this one. I vote he stays.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I like this one. I vote he stays.


I'll second that


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

colorcountrygunner said:


> I like this one. I vote he stays.





TPrawitt91 said:


> I'll second that


So moved. Irish Lad gets to stay.


----------



## Irish Lad (Jun 3, 2008)

Va
nilla said:


> So moved. Irish Lad gets to stay.


Thanks! I appreciate it😄

What's funny is we raised our now 21 year old grandson( a huntin fool). He's a very vocal Californian basher. Says most of the guys he met his age are sissys and wierd.🤣


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Irish Lad said:


> Thanks! I appreciate it😄
> 
> What's funny is we raised our now 21 year old grandson( a huntin fool). He's a very vocal Californian basher. Says most of the guys he met his age are sissys and wierd.🤣


If it quacks like a duck.... lol


----------

