# GS deer observations



## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

Curious to see what everyone’s opinion on current deer population numbers are. The division recently claimed theres about 370,000 deer in Utah. Based upon your hunting experience this year during the Archery, muzzy, rifle and dedicated seasons, what are your thoughts?


----------



## bowhunter (Sep 10, 2007)

I have been able to hunt the Wasatch West Unit for all three hunts. The deer numbers have been noticeably down this year. Places where we would always see does and fawns have usually turned up nothing. We saw 1 mature buck on the rifle opener but my son wasn't able to get everything lined up in time. 

Overall there has been a gradual decline the last 3 years with this year being noticeably worse.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

I didn't have a deer tag but in the area i have hunted the last few years didn't have many deer that we saw while out hunting elk.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I hunted two different units in Utah, the Monroe for ML deer and out in the Book Cliffs for elk. I saw noticeably fewer deer on the Monroe than I expected both bucks and does. 

As for the Book Cliffs, they could of migrated already before the spike elk hunt. I saw a total of 10 deer out there in a week and only one for sure buck but one other one that we were pretty sure was a buck but he was across the road and gone before we got a look at him. But as I said the deer could of already been down to their winter grounds before the elk hunt. Those deer have always migrated earlier than other areas.


----------



## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Do you have a link to them saying this number. 
Where did they say it.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah...or-the-upcoming-general-season-deer-hunt.html


----------



## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

I think these numbers are off just looking at how the deer are counted. The deer counted on the winter range do not reflect the population that are in Utah for most of the year. Deer migrate down from Wyoming and Idaho and from Colorado and Nevada. 
I understand that’s the best way to count them but all those deer are not Utah deer. 

How do you count the large herd on the Idaho Utah border winter range. Those deer spend most of their life in Idaho. Same with north slope winter range. Most deer are from Wyoming


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Utah is 82,144 sq miles of area.
That is 52,572,160 acres.

52,572,160 / 370,000 = 142.086918919 acres per deer.

Yes, I can easily believe 1 deer per roughly 150 acres is a reasonable estimate.


-DallanC


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Hoopermat said:


> I think these numbers are off just looking at how the deer are counted. The deer counted on the winter range do not reflect the population that are in Utah for most of the year. Deer migrate down from Wyoming and Idaho and from Colorado and Nevada.
> I understand that's the best way to count them but all those deer are not Utah deer.
> 
> How do you count the large herd on the Idaho Utah border winter range. Those deer spend most of their life in Idaho. Same with north slope winter range. Most deer are from Wyoming


What about the large numbers of deer that migrate off the Pauns and Zion units to Arizona? Or, what about the numbers of deer that migrate off the San Juan to Colorado? Or, what about the deer that migrate to Nevada near Escalante and Milford?

My point is that while some deer certainly migrate into Utah for the winter, we also have many that migrate out of Utah for the winter and possibly offset any coming in.

Also, winter is certainly the best time for estimates because they are easier to count and find...but, remember, winter classifications are only one small part of the estimate puzzle and equation. Spring classifications and hunter harvest numbers are also pieces to that puzzle.


----------



## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Like I've said previously the numbers haven't been this low on the Manti since before the 5 day hunt were implemented.

Just wait till next year, I have not seen very many Does with Fawns on the Manti either.

I don't believe 1 deer for every 150 acres either. More like every 200-250 acres


----------



## muleydeermaniac (Jan 17, 2008)

In the two areas that I hunt and own land, Ogden and Morgan units, I spend quite a bit of time in both. With my limited amount of knowledge I think the numbers in these are average. Last year Morgan had a lot more deer than this year, but that was an above average year. Ogden very rarely deviates from the numbers. I can tell a bad year in Morgan because my property is wintering ground and up into the mid range so a lot of deer die off there. this year was average die off compared to the 26 years I've had the property.


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Ha! We had 8 deer on our 80 acres. So my guess is the count is low.

Maybe some of you smart fellows that have it all figured out could take one for the team and get a job with the DWR and ge them straightened out.


----------



## Gledeasy (Mar 23, 2014)

I don't really know any numbers. I'll say where I hunted the numbers seemed about the same as the last few years. I didn't spend a ton of time in other areas of the unit but things seemed lower in those places. 

What I will say is that the deer patterns from previous years seemed all over the place. Things seemed weird or off, just don't know how to explain it.


----------



## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> I hunted two different units in Utah, the Monroe for ML deer and out in the Book Cliffs for elk. I saw noticeably fewer deer on the Monroe than I expected both bucks and does.
> 
> As for the Book Cliffs, they could of migrated already before the spike elk hunt. I saw a total of 10 deer out there in a week and only one for sure buck but one other one that we were pretty sure was a buck but he was across the road and gone before we got a look at him. But as I said the deer could of already been down to their winter grounds before the elk hunt. Those deer have always migrated earlier than other areas.


During the LE early rifle elk hunt we saw quite a few deer, lots of doe and at least a dozen bucks. Most of our deer sightings were close to the ridge road so they could have been staging up waiting to drop off the edge.


----------



## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> Hoopermat said:
> 
> 
> > I think these numbers are off just looking at how the deer are counted. The deer counted on the winter range do not reflect the population that are in Utah for most of the year. Deer migrate down from Wyoming and Idaho and from Colorado and Nevada.
> ...


That why these counts are BS. Counting them on winter range is not accurate. But I don't know a better way either


----------



## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Here we go again! o-||


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Hoopermat said:


> That why these counts are BS. Counting them on winter range is not accurate. But I don't know a better way either


Maybe figure out how many winter from out of state and deduct those?

Hell... the wildlife board felt educated enough to cut late season elk tags because the wildlife pimps that use animals for profit told them that the elk being killed had wintered from their precious units.

#science


----------



## hook69 (Nov 26, 2016)

I hunted the Wasatch west and the deer numbers seemed less than normal. The biggest bucks that I have seen over the last few years have been in town. One of the issues I have is they have extended the archery area along the wasatch front, but these deer do not leave the city. So now more deer are being taken that could possibly help rebuild the herds in parts of the wasatch but they will be hunted even more. I ran into a few archery hunters that said they were after anything...including does.


----------



## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

DallanC said:


> Utah is 82,144 sq miles of area.
> That is 52,572,160 acres.
> 
> 52,572,160 / 370,000 = 142.086918919 acres per deer.
> ...


That's like saying there's a fish in every cubic foot of water in flaming gorge, and I know that's not even close to accurate. You can't go off total size in the state for your equation. You have to go off suitable habitat, that's a much, much smaller number


----------



## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

For statistical purposes and population measures Dallan's equation is correct. It goes to population density.


----------



## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

MadHunter said:


> For statistical purposes and population measures Dallan's equation is correct. It goes to population density.


But it is not accurate because the entire state is not deer habitat.


----------



## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

Hoopermat said:


> But it is not accurate because the entire state is not deer habitat.


Exactly You can't count down town Salt Lake City In your equation, and you can't count any ground I-15 covers as well when coming up with your figures. You have to only count ground that a deer can use to live in


----------



## Aznative (May 25, 2018)

Being new to Utah I have no clue but isnt it all just rough estimates anyhow? For example it seems alot of the animals are in thick thick areas so how do they get an accurate count. I know someone said a while back joking around that if they got a deer they would say population was great and if not population was not great. To me I wasnt really impressed and I got a smaller buck. Yes I did cover alot of the unit but that was to learn for future where I want to be. But everything I read on the east prior to putting in was it was great. But talking to alot of other hunters they said this year was horrible compared to years past. 

Now this is just me as im not use to it but it seems Utah runs several hunts at a time and back to back for the whole season. Have they always done that? If so id assume everything just stays in thick stuff. It would be nice if they gave a week break here and there. But again im new so cannot say I know much up here.


----------



## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

Aznative said:


> Being new to Utah I have no clue but isnt it all just rough estimates anyhow? For example it seems alot of the animals are in thick thick areas so how do they get an accurate count. I know someone said a while back joking around that if they got a deer they would say population was great and if not population was not great. To me I wasnt really impressed and I got a smaller buck. Yes I did cover alot of the unit but that was to learn for future where I want to be. But everything I read on the east prior to putting in was it was great. But talking to alot of other hunters they said this year was horrible compared to years past.
> 
> Now this is just me as im not use to it but it seems Utah runs several hunts at a time and back to back for the whole season. Have they always done that? If so id assume everything just stays in thick stuff. It would be nice if they gave a week break here and there. But again im new so cannot say I know much up here.


Yes they have run our hunts that way for a long time. And you assume wrong. It's not hard to find animals, they don't all stay in the thick stuff. They Move around in the open quite a bit. The key factor for that to happen though, is there has to be animals to begin with. Right now it sounds like the majority of hunters this year are believing many of the 370k deer are imaginary


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

sheepassassin said:


> Exactly You can't count down town Salt Lake City In your equation, and you can't count any ground I-15 covers as well when coming up with your figures. You have to only count ground that a deer can use to live in


I see deer in south Jordan every week on my way to work. Wife sees them in holiday at the I 215 exit near her work. They are in town for sure.

I have literally seen them underneath an I 215 overpass at the same exit, so they can be around salt lake and the freeways. And dead deer can be found on the side of I-15 any time of the year.


----------



## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

TPrawitt91 said:


> I see deer in south Jordan every week on my way to work. Wife sees them in holiday at the I 215 exit near her work. They are in town for sure.
> 
> I have literally seen them underneath an I 215 overpass at the same exit, so they can be around salt lake and the freeways. And dead deer can be found on the side of I-15 any time of the year.


I almost hit one this morning on I-15 In payson headed to work. You still can't count that area when determining deer habitat if you are wanting a more accurate number


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

sheepassassin said:


> I almost hit one this morning on I-15 In payson headed to work. You still can't count that area when determining deer habitat if you are wanting a more accurate number


But if they are residents in the area, it's their habitat.

We see those deer near the freeway year round. They live there.

I mean I understand your argument because they don't bed on the freeway, but they live around it in places for sure.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

So let's say that deer live in downtown SLC, how about just eliminating most of the desert areas where a bug has a hard time living? That alone would eliminate a lot of land in Utah 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

Critter said:


> So let's say that deer live in downtown SLC, how about just eliminating most of the desert areas where a bug has a hard time living? That alone would eliminate a lot of land in Utah
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


I agree there are more uninhabitable areas in Utah than I-15 or downtown.

Deer from City Creek and Emigration canyon come into town all the time.


----------



## TPrawitt91 (Sep 1, 2015)

sheepassassin said:


> I almost hit one this morning on I-15 In payson headed to work. You still can't count that area when determining deer habitat if you are wanting a more accurate number


This reminds me... I almost hit a cow elk last weekend driving to the green river!! Pulling my camping trailer :shock: that was NO GOOD!! Had to slam on my brakes at like 50 yards and swerve to miss!

Unrelated to the topic but that was scary!


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

My kids have not killed a deer this year on the Nebo so I should blame it on deer numbers. But it is more likely they have a poor guide......

I tend to think that the 370,000 is in the ballpark. This year's weather pattern had the deer in all kinds of different places. I do feel like there are 50% more deer in the areas we hunt than there were 10-12 years ago. 

And the UDWR takes a model of the harvest and counts to look back at the population. Something like-- if there was a harvest of X and a post season buck count of Y and doe to fawn ratio of Z then there has to be XXXXXX deer to produce those numbers. 

To me it is more about the trend. We trended way up over from a decade ago and plateaued the past couple years (on the units I am familiar with). I will say I have seen about the same number of doe this year and more fawns than doe. That gives me hope for next year.

..


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Anecdotal evidence, although not by the book scientific in nature, should NOT be overlooked in the full scheme of things. It definitely has its place. At the very least, what many hunters are seeing this year, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to add up to what the division is saying. If their numbers are close, then hunters aren't seeing deer for other reasons, and their are several to choose from. I helped a buddy on his muzzy deer hunt in Kamas unit, which I am very, very familiar with. Numbers were way down from passed years, but 2 out of 3 does we saw had twins, so thats good. I know it was one of the areas last winter was tough on, but it was pretty hard just to find does, let alone a buck. Elk hunters I talked to said the same thing, and more than a few never even saw a deer.


----------



## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

The rumor is that all mule deer states are losing numbers of deer. How has Utah increased numbers when we continue to lost winter and summer habitat.

I do remember SFW saying they will increase deer numbers when we went to 30 units. I think the 370,000 # is a saving face for SFW


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Brookie said:


> I do remember SFW saying they will increase deer numbers when we went to 30 units. I think the 370,000 # is a saving face for SFW


This.

Remember that commisar Peay boasted that if we did option 2 and killed the yotes, that we'd have 400,000 deer in the state again. I can't help but wonder if the 370,000 statewide number put forth has more political overtones than scientific? Nevermind that a hard winter would naturally be expected to drop numbers some.

Now, on the unit I follow most closely, the numbers are down overall, but the local biologists have acknowledged this and tags have been adjusted accordingly.


----------



## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Catherder said:


> Brookie said:
> 
> 
> > I do remember SFW saying they will increase deer numbers when we went to 30 units. I think the 370,000 # is a saving face for SFW
> ...


I would believe this also.


----------



## Califbowmen (Jul 1, 2008)

Deer were non existent!! Found one spike buck and the same six does each day!! Hiked several drainages, no fresh sign not scat!! Where in the past 15 years of hunting the same areas, our group would see a dozen bucks each day(combined)!! There were more mountain lions this year than I’ve ever seen in past seasons!! None of the other hunters I spoke with had seen a legal buck and in some cases not even a doe!! Being a nonresident it will be a good three or four wait for another tag!! Too old now to wait that long!!


----------



## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

Well after last weekend we saw about 200 does and 1 buck. I did notice a lot of twins with does but not every doe had fawns also. I haven’t been to this area in two years but it was much better then. I don’t know why.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Its like a switch just flipped LMAO, I counted 3 bucks along side the does on my way home tonight. Cant wait to see what "big guys" show up over the next couple weeks.




-DallanC


----------



## sheepassassin (Mar 23, 2018)

Califbowmen said:


> There were more mountain lions this year than I've ever seen in past seasons!! !


Ok you have my attention. How many lions did you see?


----------



## 4x4 Bronco (Sep 7, 2007)

We saw similar numbers of deer this year in our area. The difference we saw was very few younger bucks. We normally see a lot of spikes and two points. We may have just missed seeing them or maybe the winter kill from last winter took its toll. There were a lot of fawns. One doe had three with her. I think the deer herd is doing better recently, but I credit that more to lighter winters than wildlife management personally.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

4x4 Bronco said:


> ]I think the deer herd is doing better recently, but I credit that more to lighter winters than wildlife management personally.


Woah wait, when did we last have a "lighter" winter? Last winter was so bad a lot of high country campsites were snowed in until late July. Had inlaws almost get snowed in over memorial day weekend on the Boulder when that late season blizzard hit.

Year before that was pretty crazy along the 'front as well. And the year before that was the most snow I've ever seen when we hit our favorite ice fishing spot (first time I've ever seen snow completely cover the fence posts along the road).

-DallanC


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Ok
I've covered alot more ground since the hunts.
Looking at winter grounds and rutt areas.

The deer numbers are poor to say the least..

The elk are down too.

Come on DWR.
There's alot of pissed people out there looking right now!


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Ok
> I've covered alot more ground since the hunts.
> Looking at winter grounds and rutt areas.
> 
> ...


What would you like the DWR to do goofy?


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I felt it was lower in numbers, in places you should see a buck, nothing but doughs, so...


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Maybe they should set up stations in the trees during the rut playing this song by Kenny G....seems to work for making more people at least.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

stillhunterman said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > What would you like the DWR to do goofy?
> ...


----------



## olibooger (Feb 13, 2019)

Jedidiah said:


> Maybe they should set up stations in the trees during the rut playing this song by Kenny G....seems to work for making more people at least.


&#128077;&#128077;&#128536;&#128557;&#128105;‍❤‍&#128104;&#128107;&#127790;&#127789;&#128038;&#128029;&#128525;&#129323;&#128584;&#128576;&#129318;‍♂

Follow the emoticon story of love


----------



## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> stillhunterman said:
> 
> 
> > Cut buck permits back too where we are carrying more mature bucks.
> ...


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Hey Goof lets try killing a few hundred extra cats per year before we tell humans to lump it. After all most humans only kill one deer per year while your cougar kills 50 and plenty of mature bucks in that. Over 100,000 deer per year to give houndsman a hobby.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

This was personally the worst year I have seen the extended. I have only archery hunted 5 or 6 years, but every year there are INSANE numbers of not only deer, but 3+ year old deer. 

I saw a lot less deer, and way less 3 and 4 points. Typically there is a pretty fair number of 4 year old 4 points in an area I hunt and this year it was garbage. I spent more time and tried more areas than any previous year, and I just didn't love what I saw.


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

middlefork said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > So what kind of cuts are needed? 50%, 80%, or heck why don't we just shut the whole thing down for 5 years and start over?
> ...


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> stillhunterman said:
> 
> 
> > Cut buck permits back too where we are carrying more mature bucks.
> ...


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> Additionally, since none of you believe the DWR's numbers and some of you want Henry Mountain and Paunsaugunt herds, you're gonna hafta cut them even further. Plus, during all that time, the populations ain't gonna grow, just like they ain't growing in the LE or Premium LE units now! Have fun!


That's the funny thing...is that even the LE units where tags are really low are below management objectives and have deer herds that are not increasing.

You cut tags and the only thing you do is cut people out of hunting and increase the dollars in SFWs pocket and make a bunch of trophy hunters happy.


----------



## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > His theory might be correct if it were happening. But, it's not. Recent studies being conducted by the DWR are disproving that theory. Not only are most does being bred, but almost all of them tracked are bred during that first cycle.
> ...


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Surprised no one looked at what Iron Bear was saying. Someone needs to stay vigilant and watch what the far left vegan hippie idiots are doing to the ecology of the American West, like the situation in Yellowstone where you can only drive through massive areas of the park due to predator numbers. These idiots want to glide through America in their hermetically sealed SUVs while their fat kids drink sodas in the back and watch videos about the animals they can't see. I'll tell you what though, those people do NOT care about the animals. When disaster comes down on animal populations that hunters can't harvest, the money just isn't there to help them. Hell, we actually spend our own time and money going out and feeding deer and elk when they're going to crash if we don't. The 2017 winter was a good example, there would have been a lot more animals dead if hunters hadn't helped (though the deaths that did occur as a result of that winter may be a contributing factor to the numbers we're seeing today.)

Anyhow, couple of things about mountain lions to support what Iron Bear is saying:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2019/08/01/utah-plans-increase/

https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/cougars/cmgtplan.pdf

If cougar mortality is dropping, why are we issuing less tags on average and watching cougar populations rise?

TL;DR, we're better predators than the wild ones because we manage the animals better than any other possible method. We need to watch the hippies and keep their dirty fingers out of predator management.


----------



## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

stereotyping makes you look foolish


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Maybe it makes a PERSON look foolish but in this case the people who want to return the world to pre-European days are exactly what I described. I'm sorry though if you or anyone else identifies as what we would normally call "a hippie" and if the generalization I made offends any of those people. That was not the intention and I apologize for that.

You're right though, thank you for saying it. I think the observation that predator management has too many people making decisions based on feelings rather than facts and science, not to mention zero motivation for actually putting dollars into managing critical situations and day to day conservation issues, is a valid point though.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Jedidiah said:


> I think the observation that predator management has too many people making decisions based on feelings rather than facts and science, not to mention zero motivation for actually putting dollars into managing critical situations and day to day conservation issues, is a valid point though.


Me too...

So, how do you explain it when specific mule deer/predator studies have attempted to remove every single predator from a unit and seen virtually ZERO increase in mule deer numbers or fawn recruitment? I'll find the link to the study if you will actually read it...my guess, though, is that you will blow this and other similar studies off and keep your emotional response to predator management as is.

The science says that predator management is not the end-all be-all for mule deer increases. Instead, more predator management is only necessary when predation is additive. In many cases, it is not.


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

I would definitely read it and consider carefully. But the idea that predators are static in their territory is getting less and less plausible. The wolf that made it to the Grand Canyon and the bear in Orem are a couple examples but this cougar takes the cake:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/relay....ountain-lion-puma-connecticut-animals-science

I'm trying to find an article that was in National Geographic about a population of cougars in California that they wanted to study for inbreeding due to the fact that they were on a mountain completely ringed by 8 lanes of highway but they found that many of them were routinely ranging up to a hundred miles away with the matriarch having been found to travel something like a couple hundred.


----------



## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Carry Capacity is tricky. If habitat is there then yes you can increase deer numbers to a point by removing predators, You still need enough food so deer can make it through a tough winter. If not you can have massive starvation. Once again remove sheep and cows maybe you have more habitat. Remove the houses along winter habitat more food. I think we need to have real discussion on Carry Capacity numbers to work with, then we can make the changes.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Start by reading the "Predation" section beginning on page 26 of this document from Nevada. It holds loads of good info: http://www.ndow.org/uploadedFiles/n.../Wildlife_Education/Publications/muledeer.pdf

Then, read this article: https://www.hcn.org/articles/colora...lion-cougar-black-bear-predator-for-mule-deer

I love this quote: "In the 1990s, following aggressive, state-funded feeding programs and predator control, the state's mule deer population skyrocketed to over 600,000. But then, at the end of the decade, the population crashed, and since then it has continued downward. Since 2007, Colorado Parks and Wildlife has reduced the number of hunting tags by 85 percent to help their recovery. Statewide, the mule deer population in 2015 was at 436,000, below the 557,000-target range set by the agency.

The studies won't be the first time the state has targeted carnivores in an attempt to hike deer numbers. In 1992, a predator-control study conducted in the Piceance Basin found that even after coyotes, the dominant predator in that area at the time, were reduced, many fawns died from disease or starvation, because the deer were at carrying capacity, at a population density three times higher than they are now. "They showed habitat conditions were the biggest limitations," Anderson says."

Then, this: http://files.cfc.umt.edu/heblab/WM_Hurley et al. Mule Deer Predator Control 2011_small.pdf

It states, " The lack of response in fawn
ratio or mule deer abundance to coyote reduction at this extensive (landscape) scale suggests that decreased neonate mortality due to coyote removal is partially compensatory. Annual removal of coyotes was not an effective method to
increase mule deer populations in Idaho because coyote removal increased radiocollared neonate fawn survival only under particular combinations o f prey densities and weather conditions, and the increase did not result in population growth. Coyote-removal programs targeted in areas where mortality of mule deer fawns is known to he additive and coyote-removal conditions are successful may influence mule deer population vital rates hut likely will not change direction of population trend. Although mountain lion removal increased mule-deer survival and fawn ratios, we were unable to demonstrate signiflcant changes in population trend with mountain lion removal. In conclusion,
benefits of predator removal appear to he marginal..."


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Wasn't shooting all the yotes with the bounty program going to fix the predation problems and get our mule deer population over 400,000?.......


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

I'll read them later for sure but I do want to say that I'm not talking about turning on a hundred more cougar tags in one year. The issue to me is that they seem to be trending the tags downward while populations grow over the course of a few years or decades. Deer populations shrink, cougar populations rise and the response doesn't seem to be to follow that trend with increased cougar tags which seems like bad math.

Just like Brookie says carrying capacity is tricky and like you said when you whack all the predators the deer spike and crash. When you hear me get bent out of shape over the predator control being run by people who think cougars and bears are just fun scenery, what I'm talking about is gradual (but really actually fairly aggressive when you change the scale from years to decades) trend toward increasing predator to prey ratios.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Hey Goof lets try killing a few hundred extra cats per year before we tell humans to lump it. After all most humans only kill one deer per year while your cougar kills 50 and plenty of mature bucks in that. Over 100,000 deer per year to give houndsman a hobby.


Hey, Iron Bears back!

Hate to tell ya Bear ,
But most units have less lions now than they did when we went the rounds on this issue years ago.

And ya, habitat and Mother nature rules.
I just want more big bucks!


----------



## T-dubs-42 (Sep 8, 2015)

If the deer populations are truly struggling, the lion populations will undoubtedly dip accordingly. Predators tend to manage themselves pretty well. Rapidly adjusting tag numbers every year because the deer are at their low and the predators are peaking will only muddy the situation further.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

^^^^^. Accept cougar have several alternatives to sustain themselves through hard times. Elk, porcupine,sheep, catttle,turkey,rabbit, grouse and so on. Trust me a cougar won’t starve to death just because it cant find a deer to eat. If cougar are starving you’ll see them down in town eating city deer and pets. 

As WY2 points out it has to do with additive and consumptive predation. It would not matter if they cut tags down to 10 statewide. Cougars and other predators would just get what hunters used to harvest. 

The question is capacity like Brooke is talking about. I believe over capacity has symptoms not present in the units I spend time in. Substantial winterkill, skinny deer, few fawn, low body fat to name a few. But these factors can be screwed by a high predator population. Like lower body fat and fawn mortality. So I take a look at range conditions. The sage looks healthy with regenerating shoots presents. Grass seems to be plenty since the elk and cattle are thriving rather than starving. Cattle and sheep grazes aren’t being limited as a result of degraded habitats. Range asesments are done every year. They don’t show that habitat has been reduced. Just as many cattle and sheep as in the past. Certainly conifer encroachment has resulted in mule deer capacity reduction but not to the extent that it would explain the reductions we have seen since the highs of the 60s. 

Are we at mule deer capicity? Unversaly statewide? I’m not aware of a unit that is booming with deer. I do know we don’t use 1080 poison like we did in the past that likely resulted in the crazy boom of mule deer we had in the 60s and 70s. It’s the one common denominator in the whole mule deer decline debate. Nationwide from deserts to high alpine east to west north to south. 

Cutting tags is a fools bet if you're looking to increase the overall deer population. It will just result in a few more big bucks like Goofy wants. Rather we should increase tags and give more opportunity for humans to harvest rather than natural predators. At this point I’d go for a 365 day season hunters choice and you can hunt by spotlight if you want. 

If we are at capacity its like a pile of food on the table it’s first come first serve. A deer tag unfilled is a deer available to be killed by a cougar, coyote, car, disease,starvation, old age or what ever else you can think of. At least the human filling the tag pays money for the conservation of the species. IMO we deserve the harvest. 

I have no faith that we will ever adopt comprehensive predator control for the sake of a general hunt for the masses. For starters it would cost a ton. Then the environmentalist, agricultural lobby and outfitters wouldn’t stand for it. But I do want to point out the real reason deer hunting is not what it used to be. Not habitat hunters or weather. It’s predators.


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Good to see you posting again Iron Bear. The subject of mule deer declines is always a fun read, and it always reminds me of the old adage "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

It is certainly a quandary to try and decipher, and it really goes against my grain to pin one particular 'cause' on mule deer population declines. Predators (lions in particular) reducing and/or stagnating an ungulate (micro)...population has certainly happened before and will certainly happen again. But I have a hard time believing cats can/do control an entire mule deer population spacially, across the entire western states.

Seems to me there just might be several factors involved, that when considered temporally, can create what we as hunters see. Is the science flawed? Is the science biased? Is the science influenced by certain aspects behind the curtain? I dunno, could be. But as of now, it is saying lion predation is not the limiting factor.

The subject is certainly polarizing to say the least...-O,-


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wyoming2utah said:


> You cut tags and the only thing you do is cut people out of hunting and increase the dollars in SFWs pocket and make a bunch of trophy hunters happy.


Here is the thing: for 99% of the people saying "cut tags," that is the exact goal. They may say it is to breed does in the first cycle, or to increase deer numbers, or any other reason, but it's just what you describe above.

Follow the money. It's a tried and true mechanism to discovering truth.


----------

