# Merriam's Turkey



## Scottortho3669 (Oct 13, 2016)

The goal this general turkey season is a merriam's turkey. I have already shot a couple rio's. I have the 25th through the 31st off and plan on hitting hard. I live in Salt Lake and know I need to head south. Anyone have similar goal and want to team up or have a recommendation of where to go?


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

It's a good enough goal, but might be a really tough one to actually fulfill in Utah. I am not sure where to send you in Utah for a Merriams turkey. There use to be a few pure blooded Merriams in the La Sals, and some of the other southern mountains, but for the most part they are all gone. You could do like some guys do and if you get one with kinda while tail feather tips, just go ahead and call it a Merriams. OR...
you could head down to southern Utah and shoot yourself a nice Tom turkey, then jump in your truck and drive as fast as you can to the Black Hills and get that Merriams your after. Good luck to ya and have fun.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

BP, are you saying those white tipped birds are not Merriam's?


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Well, maybe they are but...
here is a pic of the last known Merriams to be taken in Utah. LaSal Mts, 2002


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## Scottortho3669 (Oct 13, 2016)

I will have fun! As long as I am in the mountains and not at work it will be heaven rather I get something or not. Thanks for the comments.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

silentstalker said:


> BP, are you saying those white tipped birds are not Merriam's?


Everything I have read says they are hybrids.

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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Yeah I am sure we don't have many pure merriams left but their influence and traits are found all over the state.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Id look to Grand, Harfield, Kane, Iron and washington counties those are areas where the division planted pure strain Merriam turkeys. 



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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I think most birds are hybrids at this point. I kind of quit calling them "Merriams" or "Rio". I just call them "Mountain" and "Valley" birds at this point.


I still like killing mountain birds better.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I've called them a lot of different names and usually with a explanation point behind it. 

But mostly I just call them dinner.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

PBH said:


> I think most birds are hybrids at this point. I kind of quit calling them "Merriams" or "Rio". I just call them "Mountain" and "Valley" birds at this point.
> 
> I still like killing mountain birds better.


I think your correct at least in the areas I've seen them. Because if I'm seeing Reo tail feathers characteristics and Merriam characteristics in the same areas I know hybridization is happening. It would be very tough for me to say one is a Reo and one is a Merriam.

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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I think most birds in Utah are pure Rio's. There may be a little Merriams blood in some of the birds in the Southern part of the state that received Merriam transplants years ago, but the areas north of central Utah never received any Merriams so hybridization never occurred. 
The naturally occurring color variations is what accounts for the lighter or darker tail feathers tips people are using as proof of hybridization.


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

*Merriams*

BP right, no pure Merriams in Utah, long shot may be La Sals
PHB also right, all are what I call Utah Hybrids, Rio's & Merriams, characteristics of both will show up, I'll try and find an old pick from 30 years ago of 3 birds kilt in southern Utah , one looks pure Rio, one looks Merriams and one in between the two. Most turkeys have hybrid with in a year of transplants done by the DWR & NWTF late 80's and early 9O's, the reason why Utah's turkeys finally took off.

My Colorado Merriams last week;


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## tigerpincer (Dec 5, 2009)

BPturkeys said:


> Well, maybe they are but...
> here is a pic of the last known Merriams to be taken in Utah. LaSal Mts, 2002


BP if I may ask your opinion. You abviously know a little about Turkeys. Ive been of the impression that these Turkeys my wife n I killed a few years back might be Merriams or perhaps a hybrid. Thoughts?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

They definitely look like turkeys

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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

My opinion wanted or not, surely merriams but probably part of the transplants that year from South Dakotas that were traded for fish, elk etc...
You won't find that now.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Gpskid how can you make a judgment without knowing where they came from?

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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

tigerpincer said:


> BP if I may ask your opinion. You abviously know a little about Turkeys. Ive been of the impression that these Turkeys my wife n I killed a few years back might be Merriams or perhaps a hybrid. Thoughts?


They look like Merriams from the pictures. Where did you shoot them? The best way for me to tell is Rio's usually have a coppery/bronzy look to the breast feathers if held up in the right light. Merriams just have a blacker look to them without any or very little coppery/bronze iridescence. Merriams back feathers are normally an inky jet black color.


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

Easy, I've been working with DWR & NWTF since 1986 establishing turkeys to have over the counter permits. Spent time trapping and trans planting...
Shot my first merriams in Utah 1985 before it was a draw8) and we had true merriams, but turkeys never took off till Rio's were introduced about 1989 thru 1990's, thanks to some great DWR guys in Cedar City office that seen their potential, turkeys in Utah were nothing till those transplants..
This is an old topic been beat to death,from 1950's transplants till 1986 Utah had 1,000 merriams turkeys if that, till Rio's were introduced, changed everything, 25,000 now so who complaining?

Yes there have been some transplanted merriams from other states in the past years.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

what about these birds? we had a DWR officer come into camp this season. He said the turkeys we were chasing were merriam's and that there were Rio's in the same area at a lower elevation.
not sure if he knows his shiz or not but, thats what he said.

We hunt our area in pursuit of "merriam" turkeys and we have taken several turkeys over the years some of which i can see as a high possibility of being hybrids, but we have also take several turkeys that no doubt seem to be "merriams".

According to wikapeadia a Merriams turkey is most commonly associated with white tail feathers but, have been known to have a little bit of a copper tint

here are a couple turkeys we have taken, me and my brother inlaw, what do you think??
dominant white bars on the wings, white tail feathers, dark colored feathers on the body? 
















Here is my little cousins Arizona Merriams he killed last year to compare to








I'm not totally convinced that all the turkeys we have kinned are pure Merriams because I would say not but, I would say we have killed a few marriams.

Hell, all the birds we've killed have been roosting in ponderosas thats good enough to call them merriams right?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

tigerpincer said:


> BP if I may ask your opinion. You abviously know a little about Turkeys. Ive been of the impression that these Turkeys my wife n I killed a few years back might be Merriams or perhaps a hybrid. Thoughts?


By BP'S description I'd say those are reos with the bronze tint.

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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Goosefreak I'd think two of the photos look Merriam and the boy with the arizona bird looks more reo. 


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## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

I was out hunting yesterday and I'm seeing two types of turkeys. There are some that are almost black, and very large, then I'm seeing some that have a reddish or bronze tint to them. I was going to ask everyone about that today.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I want to play too....

I killed this bird in 2009. It was a valley bird. I would have to say it is "mostly" a Rio. The black bars on the wings are wider than the white, among other things:









I killed this bird in 2013. This was on Cedar Mountain (ie: mountain bird). It's wings are showing a lot more white -- but I would have to say the white and black bars are pretty "equal" -- maybe the white is narrowly larger. This suggests to me that it's a hybrid. If the white dominated the black, then I'd say Merriam. What do you think?


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## tigerpincer (Dec 5, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> Gpskid how can you make a judgment without knowing where they came from?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


These were killed in Rio country. We bagged em in the North Fork area of the Eden Valley on a friends property several years back.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

swbuckmaster said:


> Goosefreak I'd think two of the photos look Merriam and the boy with the arizona bird looks more reo.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


So those 2 turkeys were killed in southern Utah in 2013 and 2014.

My little cousins turkey was killed in the white mountains in alpine, Arizona. There are 2 types of turkeys in AZ. Merriams and Gould.. there were some Rio's that were introduced into the AZ strip but, other than that, there are no Rio's in AZ. Especially in the white mountains.. that bird is a pure blood merriam..


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

If it were me and I truly wanted a Merriams turkey, I would hunt in an area that has a population of native Merriam turkeys. This, IMHO, is the only way of assuring that the bird is a Merriams. 
Merriam turkeys are a very habitat selective and habitat sensitive species. In other words, they can't just live anywhere. What may for the most part look like good Merriam turkey habitat may not prove to be. The failed Utah transplants is proof of that. Animals tend to expand and fill habitable territory to the limits and the failure of the Merriams to naturally expand their territory into Utah speaks volumes. 
The Rio on the other hand, seems to be a very adaptable bird capable of living in a variety of habitats. Utah has a lot of suitable Rio habitat and I believe the Rio is here to stay.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Good exercise in turkey identification but I still cant tell the difference ha ha. 

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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

I don't think I would call the merriam transplant a "failure" until every merriam and its offspring is accounted for.. where I hunt in southern Utah, (in a mountain range that received Arizona and Colorado Merriam transplants) I find birds at 10,200 feet elevation roosting in Doug furr and spruce pines that have zero Rio color traits or size equality..

I would maybe consider saying the merriam transplant is doing poorly.

I would think there are other reasons why the transplant didn't take off as well as it should have. We have more than enough habitat to accommodate a merriams turkey. Think of Colorado for instance. Same with Arizona. where those turkeys hang out, IMO there is not anything more special about those places that Utah doesn't have

Predator control is a factor and improving habitat, relocation areas I believe all play a factor.
I believe if we reintroduced the Merriam into our selected forests once again on a serious attempt, we can be a thriving merriam state. I believe our habitat has been greatly improved over that time span.

Think about it, nearly every state that surrounds Utah has a thriving Merriam population, so why can't we?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

goosefreak said:


> I don't think I would call the merriam transplant a "failure" ...
> 
> I would maybe consider saying the merriam transplant is doing poorly.
> 
> We have more than enough habitat to accommodate a merriams turkey.


I don't believe anyone considers the merriam a "failure". In fact, to the contrary, I think you have to consider what has happened in Utah a huge success. Where would our turkey populations be without those merriam's? Would we have turkeys occupying that habitat you mentioned, that is similar to Colorado, if only Rio's had been transplanted here?

I think we had a "perfect storm" with turkeys. The combination of both rio + merriam has been a wonderful fit here in Utah, and we can find birds from the river bottoms to the mountain tops because of them.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

I believe that we never gave the Merriam the chance and best opportunity to flourish. 

I think we can restructure a new program and expand our "turkey program"

By the way, I'm not complaining about our current turkey situation. I absolutely love my time spent turkey hunting in our state


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Speaking of turkeys, my father-in-law shot his bird this morning down in our area! While I'm stuck here at work


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

Forty years wasn't enough for them to flourish ? Only took Rio's 3-4 years to take hold.
Nice bird


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

goosefreak said:


> I don't think I would call the merriam transplant a "failure" until every merriam and its offspring is accounted for.. where I hunt in southern Utah, (in a mountain range that received Arizona and Colorado Merriam transplants) I find birds at 10,200 feet elevation roosting in Doug furr and spruce pines that have zero Rio color traits or size equality..There might be occasional pockets of Merriams scattered around the Southern part of the State
> 
> I would maybe consider saying the merriam transplant is doing poorly.... OK, poorly if you perfer.
> 
> ...


IMHO atempting to reintroduce Merriams to Utah would be a huge waste of time and money.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> IMHO atempting to reintroduce Merriams to Utah would be a huge waste of time and money.


What is it that makes Merriam's not prosper in utah the imaginary state line or was it poor dwr planting in the first place. You would think since they are in Colorado and Arizona they would have naturally migrated into utah.

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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> What is it that makes Merriam's not prosper in utah the imaginary state line or was it poor dwr planting in the first place. *You would think since they are in Colorado and Arizona they would have naturally migrated into utah. *
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I think that's his whole point. Obviously, there is something different, else we'd have merriam's all over the place.

We keep saying that the habitat is the same, but the turkeys themselves didn't fare well when we put them here. However, when the rio's showed up they flourished, and further, when they hybridized they flourished in the same areas the merriam's previously did not fare well.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

We are talking about a transplant that took place back in the 1980's..
We have changed completely the way we manage our land and wild game since the mid 1980's. 

I read up on that transplant a few years ago and I think they took 1000 birds and scattered them in the la sal, book cliffs and the boulders. I wouldn't call a 1 time project where a bunch of DWR scattered a bunch of birds a serious project. Especially in the 80's. we've changed the way we do things now, we are better informed, better data collected etc. 
Maybe it takes persistence, like stocking fish.. you might get better results with a merriam transplant if we planted an X number of birds over , day a 3-5 year project. Maybe release them in their winter range and let them find their way to
The mountains... something.

As far as predictors
They released Merriams in those 3 mountain ranges, from my experience, I have seen a huge increase in predators activity. Every year, I see more and more sign. More than places I've been in, say northern Utah.

I think they would do well given we organize a better plan for a transplant project. 

The places I hunt in southern Utah are identical to the trees and bushes as well as weather and atmosphere as the places we hunt in the white mountains of AZ.
I think the biggest reason why the merriam isn't dominant in some of our mountain ranges is because we as people have gotten in the way of that in ways we may not realize. 

On the other side of the scale, while we are all hyped up on the Rio. 
I have seen very few, true Rio Grande turkeys in Utah. And when I have they have been in Cottonwood river bottoms. 

A true Rio, with straight up copper brown tail feathers.. not the dark, dark ones like the eastern turkey has but, a true copper color like the Rio Grande turkey is glorified to have. 
Most the turkeys I see are these "Hybrid" white tipped or white/light copper blend

Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho all have merriam turkeys I don't see why Utah can't.. 

Great discussion we got going on here!!


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Good exercise in turkey identification but I still cant tell the difference ha ha.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I agree. I've researched and looked at pictures until my brain hurts.

I've just decided all the ones I've tagged are hybrids. Easier that way..


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Here's another theory. Because I have seen both merriam and Rio's and limited numbers. 
Perhaps, neither The merriam or the Rio did well as a result of the transplant in the 80s but, together they produced a hybrid turkey that thrives dominantly throughout our state. Thus creating the hybrid turkey that we keep conflicting over. So in other words we have a state full of clown turkeys, we are hunting clown turkeys. I think it would be fair that we give this new species of turkey this state has created a proper name. like " The western mountain turkey "

Either way, it's fun as hell calling a gobbling Tom into the decoys
USA


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## gpskid (Jul 24, 2012)

Transplants date back to the 1950's, all Merriams, DWR wasted 40 years trying-O,-


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

They only wasted 40 years if they did transplant projects every year since the 50's which isn't they case..

It's more like, the DWR gave up.. and too soon perhaps.. we'll never know


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/650207149/Wild-turkeys--Utah-flocks-once-sparse-now-flourish.htm

Published in 2006


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/uplandgame/turkey/turkey_management_plan.pdf

Page 5,6 and 7 talk a little bit about the Utah merriams.

Then in the conclusion section on page 15 as well..

So far, I have found nothing suggesting the merriam has vanished. One paragraph I read mentions they expanded slower than expected but, not lost...

After further reading on the 3 species we have here in Utah the conclusion being. Utah is home to the Rio grande, the merriam and the hybrid which is a mix between a Rio and a merriam. Also known as a "Merrio"

And more further reading suggests that the wild turkey inhabited Utah up until the pioneers came to the valley. Well before
The "transplant" took place. It is suspected that it was the merriams turkey that was once native to Utah.

The first transplant took place in 1925 and it was the eastern turkey that was first introduced and was proved unsuccessful.

The second transplant was the merriams inthe 50's from Colorado and Arizona, then later from
South Dakota. A couple transplants projects and a few hundred birds later, the merriams weren't growing as fast as expected but, they were growing.

Then a years later came the Rio and turkey numbers really grew, especially in the crossbreed species between the Rio and the Merriams.

The Merriams was introduced in Grand, Garfield, Kane, Iron, and Washington counties.

Once our turkey population started to gain ground, some of our turkeys in southern Utah were then trapped and transplanted in northern Utah to assist in the transplanting projects in our northern region.

As of 2006 the Merriam turkey population was estimated between 3,000 - 3,500 birds
While the Rio was estimated around 16,000

Nothing that I saw so far suggested any kind of a decline..

So, I'm going to continue chasing my beloved Merriam's and I'll continue to plaster any hybrid "Merrio" that gets in my way. As for the Rio, we'll I personally haven't come across one but, I won't pass on him if I do!

I'm going to keep reading some of these studies and info pages to see what else I can find about the matter


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

http://www.realtree.com/turkey-hunting/turkey-hunting-nation/2017/utah-turkey-hunting

Here is the most recent report I can find so far.. as of this year 2017 according to the NWTF, Utah has an estimated merriam turkey population of 7,600 birds.

The quote in this article says that they are focusing primarily on Rio's and Merriams.

They say they are effective transplanting both species and it is still an active part of our overall turkey management plan.

I believe we are sitting in a really good position where we are at right now with our turkey hunting opportunities in the state of Utah. I believe with continual effort's, our turkey hunting opportunities will continue to grow more and more each year..

I also believe that with proper management, transplanting turkeys in to our state may become a thing of the past ( for the better) with a population capable of sustaining itself. ( if not already)


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

Here a UT merriams (Colorado stock, I believe):










Notice how long the white/buff margins are, and how long the rump feathers are.


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

The above was from 2000.

Here's one from last spring that looks to be pretty close to pure merriams....


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Hawglips 
Going off these descriptions I'd have to say your turkeys look more Reo then Merriam.























Black and white bars on wings look to be even in width.
Tail feathers don't look white.

I'd like to see the beard and spurs though and area you shot them in. It helps narrow it down better in my mind.

I'm by far no turkey expert! 
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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Merriams have been known to sport a little bronze in their tail feathers as well. Like a bronze/white. Buff is the proper name for that color. While the Rio typically sports a dominant bronze color.

But yes, those are good guide lines to go off of


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

http://wildturkeyzone.com/wildturkey/merriams.htm

Another Description of a merriam turkey

Another website backs up this claim saying " the merriam turkey has white or buff colored tail feathers.

The color "buff" is discribes as "pale yellow-brown
https://colors.findthedata.com/l/600/Buff


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Another description of the merriams to be associated with white of buff colors tail feathers.

http://www.grandslamnetwork.com/merriam/


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Edit


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I shot a bird up Payson canyon the first year I hunted. It has white tail feather tips not buff. Looks Merriam to me but supposedly no Merriam up Payson canyon.









My daughters first bird was killed in wallsburg. It's defiantly buff tail feathers but has thicker dark wing bands then white wing bands. Looks Reo to me.

Now when I compaire hoglips bird to my oldest daughters bird I can see a difference between them.









This one looks reo with the wing bands but has white tip tail feathers. Its another Wallsburg bird. 









One thing it tells me is white tail feathers is probably a lousy way of identifying turkeys.

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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Mountain bird vs valley bird.


Everything else is just semantics.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

There is no such turkey that is recognized as a mountain bird or valley bird. They may be associated with those types of locations but, these turkeys are a species whether that is the Merriam, Rio, hybrid, or Merriam/Rio mix AKA "Merrio" which, according to my reading is recognized by the state of Utah and the NWTF as a separate turkey from the hybrid.

I think this discussion was about weather or not Utah still had a sustained population of merriam's 
According to the NWTF in 2017, the answer to that is yes. 
7,590 merriam turkeys call Utah home.
While some 10,000 Rio's call Utah home and some 5,000 hybrids and Merrimack/Rio mix


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## SCtransplant (Jul 31, 2015)

swbuckmaster said:


> I shot a bird up Payson canyon the first year I hunted. It has white tail feather tips not buff. Looks Merriam to me but supposedly no Merriam up Payson canyon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's awesome, I love seeing kids hunting turkeys! I was up in that second area the other day watching a field full of strutters.


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