# bullet drop



## 06springfield (Jun 12, 2010)

So I shot my tompson truimph today and was dead on at 100 yrds and moved back to 200 yrds and did not hit the box. I moved up to 150 yrds and shot a good group but it was about 10 inches low. I'm shooting 100 grains of triple 7 behind a 240 gr hornady xtp (pistol bullet) with last years powder. Is this normal bullet drop or has my powder sucked up some moisture? I bought some more powder to find out but thought I would see what the forum thought while Im at work.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

If that bullet was going 1900fps and is sighted dead on at 100 then it will be 14 inches low at 200. If you put it 3 inches high at 100 you will only be 8.5 inches low at 200.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

OOooooo you need some ballistics software my friend. I'm biased but I doubt you will find better software at a cheaper price (free)

http://huntingnut.com/index.php?name=PointBlank

-DallanC


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## 06springfield (Jun 12, 2010)

looks like I need a little more arch in my rainbow. I'll try 3 inch high at 100 yards and see what that does at 200 yrds. Thanks for the advise. Please no rainbow comments J/k.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

How about realizing that 150 yards is max range (actually too far) for a muzz, and consider it a primitive hunt, or put it away and grab the 7mm with the rest of the crazies?


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## Uni (Dec 5, 2010)

manysteps said:


> How about realizing that 150 yards is max range (actually too far) for a muzz, and consider it a primitive hunt, or put it away and grab the 7mm with the rest of the crazies?


Its not the max range though. If someone puts the work behind being able to shoot accurately at 200 yards, then more power to them.

150 might be the max range for a typical hunter, but most on this forum don't fit that mold.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

Uni said:


> manysteps said:
> 
> 
> > How about realizing that 150 yards is max range (actually too far) for a muzz, and consider it a primitive hunt, or put it away and grab the 7mm with the rest of the crazies?
> ...


I agree that the gun *can* shoot that far, but what it lacks is the knock down power to RELIABLY kill a big game animal.

Sure, you can get lucky, but for the most part, outside of 100 yards, you're pushing your luck big time. (even with the 400+ gr bullets that I shoot)


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## 06springfield (Jun 12, 2010)

No worries Manysteps I only kill cardboard boxes at 200 yards. I was just asking about bullet trajectory. I did learn my maximum point blank range was under 150 yards. I agree it is to difficult to shoot at a deer when your front sight covers his whole body.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Seriously manysteps, how much energy do you think it takes to RELIABLY kill a deer?

According to everything I've read, the minimum RELIABLE, EFFECTIVE ft lbs of energy needed for killing medium (CXP2) game is 800 lbs. Using the the data I listed earlier which is approximate, that 240gr bullet will still have 809 ft lbs of energy clear out to 240 yards. 

However, according to Utahs regulations for hunting with a pistol. If you’re hunting elk, moose, bison, bighorn sheep or Rocky Mountain goat, the handgun must develop at least 500foot-pounds of energy at 100 yards. (pg.31 Utah Big Game Field Regulations)

Now they seem to think 500 ft lbs of energy is the minimum that's needed to kill an Elk or Bison sized animal at 100 yards. If we use that same 500 ft lb number for the load above, it takes us out to over 400 yards. I'm not saying anybody should ever attempt a shot anywhere near that distance with a smoke pole, but the minimum energy needed to kill a CXP2 or larger animal is certainly there. Its all about the shooters ability to put the bullet where it needs to be at the desired distance. If you do not feel comfortable shooting distances over 100 yards that's fine, just stop telling others its not RELIABLE or ETHICAL or Lacks the Knockdown Power, because that's absolutely false info.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

I'll eat a little crow... according to the ballistics chart that comes with the 405gr powerbelts I bought today, they still have 949lb/ft of energy at 250 yards. (plenty to kill a moose)

That said, with 3 feet of drop (zeroed at 150 yards), it's not a shot I would take, nor should anyone without pure a** luck.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Agreed with a 405gr bullet I would limit myself to 150 yards as well. However with a 240gr that limit is stretched to as far as I can see the target and make a good shot with my 1x scope. Could be 175 or could be 250 depends on the conditions.


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

Why on earth would anyone shoot a 400gr bullet? Just seems like you are seriously limiting yourself with that heavy of a bullet?


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

It's called "punch"... Booyaa's little 240gr bullet doesn't have the punch at 100 yards that mine has at 200.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Dead = Dead

How much more dead your deer is at 200 then mine is really no concern. I know I had complete pass through at 200 yards last year on my buck and guess what, I'm willing to bet he was just as dead with my little 250gr bullet as he would have been had I shot him with a 400gr boat anchor you shoot. Difference is, I did not have to account for anywhere near the ballistic curve you would have. Its called "Efficiency"...but to each their own.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

We'll agree to disagree on this one Booyaa... your bullet still tanks 2 feet at 250 yards... a foot less than mine, but lacks 400 lb/ft of impact... (that's not a small number)

The funny thing here is, accuracy still counts... the extra punch just means I can hit bone and punch through for a clean kill.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Hmmm, not sure what load data you're looking at because according to what I'm seeing, using the same charge I'm using your bullet has a muzzle velocity of about 1640 fps & 2418.5 lbs energy vs. my 2010 fps & 2242.5 lbs energy. If we both site in for dead on at 165 yards, your load must be 5.37 inches high at 100 vs. mine 3.37" high. Then at 250 yards your load is 22.63 inches low vs. mine at 15.11" low. Now for the "punch" factor at 250 yards your bullet has 1028 ft. lbs of energy vs. mine which has 867 ft lbs of energy which is a difference of 161 ft lbs of energy (that *IS* a small number). The formula is Energy = Weight times Velocity Squared divided by 450395. So the fact that my little 250gr bullet is traveling 225fps faster than yours at 250 yards means that I have only generated 161 lbs of energy less then you which I can guarantee the deer or other critter will not notice. Not to mention (again) I will have a far smaller ballistic curve to deal with.

But yes we can agree to disagree, I just wanted to get the facts out


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

People put too much faith in "charts". Charts are made in labs using different types of guns with different twists, barrel lengths etc.

To properly chart out YOUR bullets trajectory you need to know two things. The Ballistic Coefficent of the bullet, and the Muzzle Velocity for *YOUR* rifle.

Velocity is only known by shooting over a Cronograph. I've yet in *ANY* gun i've owned, matched book values for velocitys. That includes alot of centerfire rifles I've reloaded for. It has always varied to some degree. I've seen factory notes showing use of 27-28" test barrels to achieve velocities a normal hunting rifle with a shorter barrel will never come close to, yet people use the drop table like its gospel. Barrel twist is also something that varies... what is YOUR barrels twist? What was the twist of the barrel the mfg tested on? You have to shoot over a crony to know the velocity... period.

Next, Ballistic Coefficent. In the rifle world, BC's tend to be much more accurate... but there is still some variation (ever notice Sierra has different sets of BCs, depending on what velocity range the bullets fall info?). Smokepole bullets can be terribly inaccurate with regards to BC. Again, the only way to really know what your BC's are is to test it. Fortunately this is easy to do yet again with a Cronograph. You simply need to measure the 100 yard velocity.

Knowing the muzzle velocity and 100 yard velocity, the ballistic coefficent can be calculated in the PointBlank ballistics software, misc functions tab (link to this is back on page 1).

With both of those known, someone can realistically calculate trajectories over a longer distance it so desired.


-Dallanc


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Dallan I agree with everything you've said and trying to find the BC for that 405gr bullet was near impossible. Not to mention all I have to go off of is the print data that's out there which claims the sst has a bc of .210. I will take my chrono next time I go out because I know the print isn't exact and I really want to get exact data for my gun and loads.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bo0YaA said:


> Dallan I agree with everything you've said and trying to find the BC for that 405gr bullet was near impossible. Not to mention all I have to go off of is the print data that's out there which claims the sst has a bc of .210. I will take my chrono next time I go out because I know the print isn't exact and I really want to get exact data for my gun and loads.


Yea I'm a ballistics nerd . I would guess the SST's are pretty accurate as the pistol compitition shooters would pitch a fit if its off too far. Its more of the JoeBob's out there casting bullets from tire weights and guestimating the BCs that have more errors IMO. Seen some older Great Planes bullets that werent even close to the published BC.

Make sure you cover your crony with cellophane wrap otherwise they get super dirty super fast, I learned that the hard way :O•-:

-DallanC


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Ahhh, I was wondering how to avoid the dreaded residue which is why I haven't used it with the front stuffer.

Great advise thanks!


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## 06springfield (Jun 12, 2010)

Just finished shooting again. 3 inches high at 100 yrds. zero at 150 and down 4 to 6 at 200 yrds. no computers used just the wildlife forum and some burned powder. Thanks for the help.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

they're shooting and killing out to 700+ yard with front stuffers now adays there gents. Not something I'd do, but if you spend the time to figure out what your weapon is doing and getting in tune with it I don't see a problem. I killed a whitetail at 200 yds with my front stuffer a few years back. Its all in what your comfortable with and confident in.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

If the bullet is 3" high at 100 yards and zero at 150, where is it hitting at 50 yards?


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Mines about +2.75 ish


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

So, if I'm hitting 2.5 to 3" high @ 50 yards, I should be hitting 3 to 4" high @ 100?
I was thinking more like 1" high at 50 would put it at 3" high at 100.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Depends on your mv and bullet weight.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Bo0YaA said:


> Depends on your mv and bullet weight.


Weight is irrelvant. Its the Sectional Density that is important. Its the value of how well the bullet travels through the air.

-DallanC


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## Bears Butt (Sep 12, 2007)

Here is a good read that seems to support everyone who has posted up information on this thread.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/best_muzzleloading_bullet.htm

We are down to the wire for testing our rifles/bullets/powder charges etc. before the muzz deer hunt begins! Good luck to everyone! I'll stick with my proven 425 grain Hornady Great Plains Hollow Point Hollow Base pushed by 90 grains of ffg blackpowder and I'll keep my shooting under 100 yards at any deer sized or bigger game.


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## 4pointmuley (Sep 18, 2007)

Especially when shooting the 1X scope. I think it really sucks that hunters in Utah have to deal with that law! The human eye is 2X. You are crazy to try to take a animal out to 200 yards with a scope! I think the dwr should consider changing it to a 4X scope! Anymore than that you might as well be hunting with a high powered rifle. 
The dwr really doesn't give any perks to the muzzleloader hunters. The season starts on a Wednesday, 1X scope, only a 9 day hunt! It is considered a primitive hunt! 
Archery is also primitive, but the season almost 4 months long, with the option of a buck, or doe, and hunting the rut on the extended.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I actually think that they need to go back to a more primitive hunt with the muzzle loader. Get rid of the scopes, and pelleted powders. It is a toss up on weather sabots pistol bullets are that much greater than a lead maxi ball or not but I would like it to go back to a all lead bullet season. I know that the way that it is now if someone is using a side lock rifle and is trying to make a stalk on a deer or elk that odds are another hunter with a scoped ML will ruin it for him. I had just that happen to me twice a few years ago in Utah. The guy with the scope was trying a 200 yard shot while I was trying to get to my comfort zone of 100 yards. The bad thing was that he didn't get the deer either. 

If hunters want all the comforts of a modern ML with scope and ability to shoot 200 yards the should be hunting in the regular rifle season. 

So much for my soap box.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Along those thoughts I guess the modern compound bow with fiber optic sites and carbon arrows should be put away for the old recurve and wooden shaft arrows right? I mean after all, If hunters want all the comforts of a modern compound bow, carbon fiber arrows and sights that give them the ability to shoot 50-70+ yards they should be hunting in the black powder season. 

Just sayin :O•-:


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Bo0YaA said:
> 
> 
> > Depends on your mv and bullet weight.
> ...


Your right, weight is only relative with regards to MV. Its much harder to get a 400gr bullet to follow the same ballistic curve as a lighter bullet. Even though the Sectional Density and thereby Ballistic Coefficient are typically higher on heavier bullets.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

Critter said:


> I actually think that they need to go back to a more primitive hunt with the muzzle loader. Get rid of the scopes, and pelleted powders. It is a toss up on weather sabots pistol bullets are that much greater than a lead maxi ball or not but I would like it to go back to a all lead bullet season. I know that the way that it is now if someone is using a side lock rifle and is trying to make a stalk on a deer or elk that odds are another hunter with a scoped ML will ruin it for him. I had just that happen to me twice a few years ago in Utah. The guy with the scope was trying a 200 yard shot while I was trying to get to my comfort zone of 100 yards. The bad thing was that he didn't get the deer either.
> 
> If hunters want all the comforts of a modern ML with scope and ability to shoot 200 yards the should be hunting in the regular rifle season.
> 
> So much for my soap box.


+100,000,000


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

So I figured I would share just how easy it is to accurately shoot 200 yards. This morning after watching over 60 elk work up the canyon Bowdacious and I were hunting for deer we decided to head out. We got a few hundred yards away from the parking lot and decided to discharge my gun. I told Bowdacious to pick an object on the hillside facing us that was 200 yards away. He ranged it and picked a rock about the size or smaller of a deers vitals. I asked him if he wanted to shoot it to which he replied "sure Ive never shot a muzzleloader before and Ive only looked through a 1x scope a couple times". He set the gun up on the sticks held steady and let it fly. To be honest I was amazed how easy he made it look. Here is a guy that only bow hunts and has done such for years, never shot a ML or used a 1x scope and he pounds this rock 1st attempt. When asked if he would consider that a difficult shot he replied "heck no I wouldn't have any problem taking that shot". I reloaded and just to make sure, I let one fly as well with the same results.

Just goes to show you that it doesn't take a ton of experience to make 200 yard shot accurately providing you have the equipment and conditions to do it.


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

I'll stick with my bow...since the "little push" came back and bit me in the eye!


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

hahaha, I said it didn't kick much (compared to my 300) did your eye go black?


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## Bowdacious (Sep 16, 2007)

Nope, just that small cut!


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