# L.E. Elk



## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

Is it just me or does there seem to be a shortage of reports successful or not of le elk hunts. It has got me to wonder what is going on out there?Iis the weather playing a larger role then first thought? What have other noticed? Thoughts?


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*ITS TOUGH* I have noticed being out every night though. Bigger bulls herded up and not making a peep. Full moon kicked our azzes. Lots and lots of hunters out with all having a bugle. Its tough to sneak up on a glass of water its pretty dam noisy walkin. Sittin water is tough because there is alot of springs running.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Plain and simple,,,

There's not as many mature bulls as there was just a few years ago ...

It"s getting tougher to harvest a hanger bull in almost every unit ...

Success rates are dropping in almost every LE elk unit ....

It"s Going to continue that way for a number of years .. IMHO.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I don't think the mature bull thing is a problem. I saw plenty of mature bulls during my scouting. The problem is the lack of rut and the tole it takes on archery guys. We get the shortest possible end of the sick you can imagine. The elk get shoved around for about a month by cow/spike guys then get no break once LE starts. I think there should be just a few days break from the pressure. Obviously it's no where near what rifle guys create, but pressure none the less. The bulls are bugling but not like during the rut, heck not even like post rut during the general rifle. I've called bulls into 50 yards or less during the general rifle before when I was trying to shoot their cows. This year I have a LE tag and can't get a bull to come closer than 200 yards. I have had 2 shot opportunities at 300 class bulls, both times I had limbs in the way. Both times I had to sneak up on the bulls. Of course I now regret not taking the shot. But I was really worried my arrow would go off target or hit the bull in a bad spot. I've talked with about 10 or so other LE guys with the same luck as me. The only guy I know who got one was in my blind ha!


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

The bulls are there, they're just getting smarter. I've got trail cam pics of several nice bulls and right up until the hunt they were regulars on my wallows. After the hunt started they went completely nocturnal like a big whitetail buck. It took a full moon and a weather change to finally start seeing them in the daylight hours. I've got four more days and hopefully this cold front will change things a little bit. Now if I could just keep the rifle hunters from doing all their "scouting" while I try to finish my hunt I'll be fine. :? :roll: I mean really, how much scouting do you need to do when you've got an LE rifle tag in an elk petting zoo during the peak of the rut? :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## Kingpennington (Aug 14, 2012)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> The bulls are there, they're just getting smarter. I've got trail cam pics of several nice bulls and right up until the hunt they were regulars on my wallows. After the hunt started they went completely nocturnal like a big whitetail buck. It took a full moon and a weather change to finally start seeing them in the daylight hours. I've got four more days and hopefully this cold front will change things a little bit. Now if I could just keep the rifle hunters from doing all their "scouting" while I try to finish my hunt I'll be fine. :? :roll: I mean really, how much scouting do you need to do when you've got an LE rifle tag in an elk petting zoo during the peak of the rut? :roll: :roll: :roll:


HAHA Love it.!! Good luck all.


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

I dont know about the lack of mature bulls being the problem. My defenition of what a mature bull is and some of the people on this board are way off. I honestly think its ridiculous expectations. Like others have said there are elk everywhere people talk all summer about a monster bull they found or several good bulls they found but come hunting time no one kind find a shooter. seems ironic for this board. Anyway it seems like the factors everyone is noticing is related to the weather in one way or another. I do hope it cools off before my wifes muzzy elk hunt. Anyway good luck to those still searchin.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Goofy is right to a certain degree but I'm not sure what he is saying is necessarily all bad news.

The truth is we were way over objective on many units on the AVERAGE AGE of mature bulls 5 years ago. We were issuing way too few tags compared to what the management plan called for. This created a mature bull hey day in Utah but it wasn't realistic to keep going that way AND follow the management plan. We had to issue more tags to bring down that average age of harvest to the plan. A few years ago we even raised the targets in the plan. Now that things are coming close to objective start to expect some tag cuts in the next few years but the way the plan is written it will never be quite what it was. I don't think that is all bad either, cut tags by enough and it will become a "once in lifetime if you're lucky" hunt. It's headed that way already.

Sure if you have an LE tag in your hand you want a 400" bull behind every tree, I get it, I have a tag in hand this year. But the simple fact is why have a plan if you don't follow it? Don't like the plan then lobby to change the plan, not beat those people up who are trying thier best to follow it.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

Just got back from the Boulder helping ut1031 with his LE tag and let me assure you that there is no shortage of bulls and mature ones at that! It's funny because ut1031 and myself probably hiked about 6 miles a day and we herd bugles every day...in the morning and evening. We'd go to visit camps of other hunters and they'd say that they hadn't heard anything in days. It's the same ol' situation...the hunters that put in the time in the woods, off the roads, see and hear more animals. We could have killed 5 330"+ bulls in less than a week of hunting if we had a rifle tag. The one thing that is throwing a wrench in a lot of hunters' plans is WATER. It was so dry when most hunters were scouting in June that so many people were banking on sitting water and making a chip shot kill early in the season. Then the rains came down south...and what do you know...most hunters didn't have a plan B. Hunters are getting frustrated and becoming more content to sit at camp and drink beer in the shade. That's why there's a shortage of successful hunting reports. Nothing has changed from last year or the year before...if you're hunting an LE unit...you're gonna see big bulls if you know what you're doing and willing to work hard...


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

The archery hunt isn't an easy hunt - the dates are early, you've got competition from cow/spike hunters and archery deer hunters kicking around. There are a lot of factors that play into it. I had a Manti tag last year, hunted hard for 14 days. I saw mature bulls every day, but sealing the deal with a bow on call shy bulls is not easy. But I learned a lot and hope to do it again in about 15 years...


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

they need to let the archery hunters hunt the rut


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## clean pass through (Nov 26, 2007)

I haven't been on every LE unit in the state, but I would be willing to bet there is 350+ inch bulls on every unit in the state. Like "Stablebuck" said you have to know what you are doing. Two years ago when I drew my LE muzzy tag for the Boulder Unit I was into bulls every morning and evening. I talked to 5 seperate LE elk hunters who had not even saw an elk or heard a bugle................REALLY? IMO a LE tag should not mean there should be a 350+ bull in every drainage but if you hunt hard enouph you shoud see something worth (depending on the hunter)shooting at within the unit. If you hunt hard and know what you are doing you will get an oportunity to shoot a good bull in every unit in the state. If you don't.......YOU GET WHAT YOU GET AND YOU DON'T THROW A FIT!


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I agree that there are great bulls in every unit. I would even dare say there are bulls in nearly every drainage on the Wasatch. My problem is not finding bulls I find bulls everyday. My only problem has been hunting out of the rut. It's really hard when you have a range of 50 yards. Then on top of that have a shot opportunity when your in bow range. There's thousands of possibilities. If I was hunting with bullets it would have been a done deal the first week.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

Sounds like some of you should be putting in for the rifle hunt. 9 days in the rut/petting zoo! :O•-: 

There are options you know. I hope you also know I am just kidding! :shock:


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

> range of 50 yards


? I've heard (on this forum no less) that shots in excess of 100 yards are doable.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

BradN said:


> > range of 50 yards
> 
> 
> ? I've heard (on this forum no less) that shots in excess of 100 yards are doable.


Definitely doable but we are talking about a bull elk, not a cow, spike or buck. There is a huge difference in the chest capacity on a large bull. I personally wouldn't feel safe taking that far of a shot on an animal that large. You wouldn't get the penetration needed to recover the animal. I would prefer 30 yds or less.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

svmoose said:


> The archery hunt isn't an easy hunt - the dates are early, you've got competition from cow/spike hunters and archery deer hunters kicking around. There are a lot of factors that play into it. I had a Manti tag last year, hunted hard for 14 days. I saw mature bulls every day, but sealing the deal with a bow on call shy bulls is not easy. But I learned a lot and hope to do it again in about 15 years...


You also had some bulls come into range....one NICE bull.....but one of the joys of bow hunting is the difficulty of punching your tag!!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Plain and simple,,,
> 
> There's not as many mature bulls as there was just a few years ago ...Maybe so, but bull:cow ratios are still insanely high! Even on 'poor units' like the Wasatch and Nebo units......
> 
> ...


I have been up on the Wasatch unit three times since the 1st of August, I have seen mature bull elk EVERY time out. Seen a couple of "hanger bulls", as well. In fact, I have a cousin who has been babysitting a "hanger bull" for the last two days, and hopefully he will have it "hanging" on his wall after tomorrow.


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

Pro, i like your opinion one this. it is pretty much in line with what i have seen and believe.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I also wish the dwr would move the hunts around. 90% success rates on 2 day hunts are shoots like Pro said. I also know the odds and risks of killing a bull on an archery hunt the way it is now and would still put in for a tag. If people think they can bail out of the rifle pool and enter the archery pool like they are doing with the le deer and still kill a good bull they are severely mistaken in their thinking.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Getting a mature bull elk into bow range is NOT an easy task, now matter how skilled/lucky the hunter. IMHO, anytime archery success rates for mature bull elk is above 30%, one of two things is occurring: 1)Not enough hunters. 2)Far too many bulls.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Fishracer said:


> Pro, i like your opinion one this./quote]Bout **** time you got it right..... -/|\- :O--O--O: 8)


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## fin little (Aug 26, 2010)

Just got home from my Pauns archery bull hunt. No tag punched but I got my moneys worth the last 3 days. Real close on a sweet 6 this morning but not quite. The dates are a double edged sword. The bow hunters get shafted on dates but the result is better drawing odds. I new what I was getting in to when I applied with 2 BPs. A long shot in some awesome country . Im content with my hunt. Really enjoyed it. They were really screaming last night . AWESOME


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Takes the right bull to call in, especially when it's early. Best way is to move in close when he's making noise and then cow call. If he has cows, bugles are a threat to him. Later on when they really get cranked up bugling over top of them can get them to come in, but usually just the satelite bulls. Hunting elk in other states well into September has taught this.

You do have to work for them though. The cow I shot was with about 12 others and a 360+ bull. An LE tag guy at the trailhead that morning opted to listen for awhile, them move in. Problem is, the bull was sounding off a mile away from him and 100 yds from me...


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> Getting a mature bull elk into bow range is NOT an easy task, now matter how skilled/lucky the hunter. IMHO, anytime archery success rates for mature bull elk is above 30%, one of two things is occurring: 1)Not enough hunters. 2)Far too many bulls.


So what SHOULD the success range be for gun hunters in the prime of the rut on LE areas?????? here is My opinion... to many elk harvested by gun hunters in the LE areas... they need to move the gun hunt to later in the year, which should bring down the success rate and then move more people through the draw. Why is a LE Elk hunt **** near a once in a life time hunt??? I have two friends that drew this year.. both had 14 points... That's 14 years plus 5 years of wait time till they can think about drawing another tag... WTH...... I dont think to many bulls is the problem here.... to much monies for LE gun tags is the issue!!!!

Not fair to say the bow hunters should be under 30%.... and gun hunters above 80%

I have talked to a few guides that guide in an LE area they said all there clients last year which was 4 people shot there bulls under 80 yards with a gun.... Do you see something wrong with that??? any way my 2 cents....


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Just asking an honest question..DISCLAIMER****not saying I agree with current dates***

When talking season dates this is a purely a hunter, non-biological, issue. So if the overwhelming majority of hunters in Utah are rifle hunters why should they not get the dates they want? Again just asking for opinions and views on this because this is the reason why rifle hunters get the best timing.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

I will counter your question with another question. Why should any weapon be in the middle of the rut? :mrgreen:


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

bullsnot said:


> Just asking an honest question..DISCLAIMER****not saying I agree with current dates***
> 
> When talking season dates this is a purely a hunter, non-biological, issue. So if the overwhelming majority of hunters in Utah are rifle hunters why should they not get the dates they want? Again just asking for opinions and views on this because this is the reason why rifle hunters get the best timing.


The majority of other states with elk hunting don't even start archery till the 15th of Sept. It seems to me that more people might actually try archery if the odds were more in their favor. To me I don't see how changing the dates one week would make rifle any more difficult. If you think about it the elk are still going crazy come spike rifle hunt. The thing is they just don't get started till after archery ends. Especially with the way the moon was this year. Though I do see your point. Obviously if most of the money is coming from rifle guys, that's where the state sees $$$$.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

jahan said:


> I will counter your question with another question. Why should any weapon be in the middle of the rut? :mrgreen:


Well I think I mentioned that above but your point about the hunt actually being an "any weapon" hunt is well taken. I've stated that many times myself but it seems carrying a bow gets much less appealing to a lot of folks when others are launching lead 500 yards across a canyon.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> The majority of other states with elk hunting don't even start archery till the 15th of Sept. It seems to me that more people might actually try archery if the odds were more in their favor. To me I don't see how changing the dates one week would make rifle any more difficult. If you think about it the elk are still going crazy come spike rifle hunt. The thing is they just don't get started till after archery ends. Especially with the way the moon was this year. Though I do see your point. Obviously if most of the money is coming from rifle guys, that's where the state sees $$$$.


Well I agree that if we made archery more apealling to hunters then more would do it. However when I've thrown that out there I've recieved quite a tongue lashing from a lot of rifle hunters. It seems there is some rifle tradition in Utah that many folks don't want to see messed with.

I'm not sure it's about $$$$ to the state. If the dates were moved and even more tags given to archers they'd still sell them, although there may some drop in the number of applicants, but the division building downtown would likely get lynched. I'm not kidding, the rifle tradition in this state is stronger than many of you may know. I've seen it.

An archer from Utah may say, "I love Idaho. I can hunt in the rut." But somewhere in Idaho there is rifle hunter saying, "I can't wait to draw a Utah tag, I can hunt in the rut."

I'm not picking sides, just looking at all angles.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Every year this argument comes up--the rifle hunters shouldn't be hunting in the rut. And, during the course of the argument, someone always says that by moving rifle hunters from the rut, we will lower success rates enough to help push more people through the LE butt plug. But, I don't see it....with the optics of today, the number of helpers out there for most LE hunters, and the number of bulls on our LE units, I don't think it matters when the rifle LE elk hunt is, we are going to have high success rates. Moving the rifle hunt out of the rut isn't going to change much for rifle LE elk hunters except maybe lessen the experience by moving the hunt from the rut.

Personally, and as a bow hunter, I like it the way it is...on my LE elk hunt, we had no problem getting within bow range and, by the end of the hunt, we heard a lot of bugling and saw a lot of rutting activity.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> Every year this argument comes up--the rifle hunters shouldn't be hunting in the rut. And, during the course of the argument, someone always says that by moving rifle hunters from the rut, we will lower success rates enough to help push more people through the LE butt plug.


This may or may not be true, but the point I'm trying to make is that is beside the point. The reason rifle hunters hunt the rut is because that seems to be what most hunters want to see happen. My understanding is we were to have a vote with ballot boxes and the whole nine, rifle hunters hunting in the rut would win in a land slide despite the trade offs.

My question is since this is nothing more than a social issue should it be any other way? Honest question and my mind is open about that.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Hmmm...I see the issue Bullsnot. The popular vote doesn't work for us archery hunters. Can we switch to a electorial voting system.


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## c3hammer (Nov 1, 2009)

jahan said:


> ...Why should any weapon be in the middle of the rut?


With our LE elk herds at between 80 - 100 bulls per 100 cows, every bull in the herd will be broken if we don't hunt them in or before the rut.

We either need to hunt them early or put 5 times as many archers in the field to blow up the herds during the rut. The combination of spike hunts, massive cow hunts and trying to bank big bulls as we do here in Utah, makes moving the rifle hunt a recipe for an even more busted system 

The real way to solve the problem is to eliminate the spike hunts, have 5 times as many archery tags during the rut and triple the number of rifle tags way later in the year. This will keep the herds in a more normal ratio of bulls to cows, allow 7 times as many people to hunt the resourse for big bulls and eliminate the need for so many cow hunts to keep herd size in check.

Cheers,
Pete


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

Why does Utah even have LE elk hunts to the extent they do??? Large areas holding the most elk, the biggest elk with the fewest tags for rifle and archery and a waiting period of decades?? Sure I understand some guys want to kill something that measures like a Hummer compared to a Volkswagon but this whole LE system seems to be established for some pretty petty reasons. You could say the same thing for the LE deer. Why not manage the elk LE system to get the most hunters as possible through the system without loosing the population and ALL of the larger elk? I dunno, this whole kill the biggest and the baddest animal on the hill mentality is becoming so pervasive from the manufacturers who sells us our gear to the game departments who want the money from the conservation tags (which by the way sell for more and more as there are less and less tags) to the hunters chasing the critters.

Hell the archery guys in Kali start in freaking July! I guess I'm just tired of our sport changing from hunting to that of just simply killing. There are some tough questions to answer out there, and someone will always end up getting the "shaft" (pun intended) and will complain till the cows come home.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I think the only reason you get so much opposition is because the rifle hunter has an entiltment mentality. Some of them have 17 points or more so they are entitled a rut hunt. They dont care to make a system any easier to draw.

There are a hand full of guys that go to any rac or other meeting. The handful are vocal. The vocal ones are invested in elk points. Most people outside the vocal ones either dont have a clue or are now just seeing how the plug affects them. This is one reason you see so many rifle bailers on the henry to henry archery. They want to hunt it but are now seeing the plug


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

The rife hunt is not a hunt at all.... more like a SHOOT.... case in point.. a guy waits 12 years to draw the tag.. Goes up on opening morning and shoots his bull in the first thing... is that really a hunt??? 12 years of waiting and over in less than 2 hours. That would be a HUGE let down for me.. I guess some units are like that... It's to bad that the farthest reaching weapon hunts when the animals are they most vulnerable. they could sure help the butt plug of a draw and make elk more then an OIL tag. 

Rifle guy's think if I wait 15 years for a tag I should be guaranteed a bull I guess.... Like I asked If archers should be under 30% where should gun hunters be???? I would think under 60%..... does anybody have any kind of numbers on that?


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

Its all about the $$$$. SFW has the DWR in their back pocket, selling convo tags for $25,000. You think someone is gonna buy a tag on the pahvant for 25k if they had to hunt October 20th??? HELL NO. Its all about the money. It will never change either.


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

Seriously? It's NOT only rifle hunters that have that mentality after waiting so many years! Archers, muzzy and rifle hunters are all in that mode of thinking. Utah just seems to be the worse, but all states that have these kind of hunts reflect that same thought process. I do understand what you are saying about the success rate of bow vs. rifle, and hunting the rut, but come on, it's still like a freaking zoo the way the game department runs their "trophy" entitled state. Being new here it's easy to see that Utah manages wildlife on a trophy basis, and throws in hunts for opportunity. Why?


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

Haha josh, you posted just when I did. So what you are saying is the conservation organizations have all the sayso on how wildlife is managed because they make money on it? How sad is that. The fish and game in california doesn't really manage game at all, just hunters, and they do it because of the political atmosphere there. Seems Utah is kinda the same thing, just substituting politicians for con orgs. Sad.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

Utah sells more convo tags than all other states combined. We have double the Elk AZ has and they issue like 4 times as many tags as we do. Yet they wack giants every year. I pray it will change, but I doubt it ever will.


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

I hear you. Change comes only when those who wish it so have the fortitude, ambition and will to do what it takes to accomplish that change. In my relatively short experience, I find too many hunters have few if any of those qualities, and simply shrug their shoulders and say "oh well" or just quit because the effort is more than they are willing to expend. No wonder the few dictate to the many.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Ya we have twice as many elk as az but they give out twice as many tags. Utah is full of tards if they dont think their getting the bone. Az also puts out just as many b&c bulls as utah.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> Utah sells more convo tags than all other states combined. We have double the Elk AZ has and they issue like 4 times as many tags as we do. Yet they wack giants every year. I pray it will change, but I doubt it ever will.


Sorry, but that is flat-out BS! Utah issues a TON more tags than Arizona...you can't just leave out all of the Any-bull and spike tags. You look at the total number of elk tags that Utah sells and by percentages (elk tags compared to elk numbers), Utah sells more.

Hey, I am all for the DWR issuing more LE tags, BUT, as the system is right now, we have a pretty awesome amount of elk opportunity. Right now, I am able to not only hunt bull elk every year, but, if I choose, I can also try hunting mature bull elk. Also, if I am lucky enough I can hunt trophy bull elk. Sorry, but Arizona doesn't even come close to giving that much opportunity out...!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

joshsuth said:


> You think someone is gonna buy a tag on the pahvant for 25k if they had to hunt October 20th??? HELL NO.


This is true and no doubt an influential force but lets say we remove that from the equation here for arguments sake. Do you think, with conservation tags and their "value" aside, would the majority be ok with a date change? I'm not sure they would. I've heard from plenty of folks that gain nothing personally from those programs that have very strong feelings about this.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Bullsnot, I agree with you...Moving the rifle hunt away from the rut is purely a social issue. And, since there are so many rifle hunters who like it that way...it should stay that way.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Why don't we just do this. Start the archery hunt for deer and elk on the Labor Day weekend and end it the last Sunday in September. Do this for the LE hunts as well as the general season hunts. Do away with the cow and spike hunts in the LE areas and do the LE hunt during the "scheduled" elk hunt in October along with the rest of the elk hunt. Do the LE and general deer hunt as it is now. Then the first week in November open up the cow hunts. 

I know this makes way too much sense for them to even think about. 

Now as for what I did on my LE elk hunt. I spent every weekend from July 4 until my hunt started on September 15 when I had my tag. That along with being on the mountain 4 days before the hunt even started. Granted I shot my elk on opening morning but I had him dead to rights almost like I had him staked out to a tree. I put him to bed for 3 nights and woke him up 4 days in a row and watched him. It wasn't like I went up on the hill on the opening and shot him. I figured that I put my time in with him.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Critter said:


> Why don't we just do this. Start the archery hunt for deer and elk on the Labor Day weekend and end it the last Sunday in September. Do this for the LE hunts as well as the general season hunts. Do away with the cow and spike hunts in the LE areas and do the LE hunt during the "scheduled" elk hunt in October along with the rest of the elk hunt. Do the LE and general deer hunt as it is now. Then the first week in November open up the cow hunts.


Personally, i don't think it makes any sense...


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Since LE hunts leave a bad taste in my mouth in general, I'll keep it simple. Like W2U said, since the majority wants something, and it is a social issue, might as well afford them what they want. Hunting big game has changed/evolved so much over the decades, I'm afraid much has been lost by too many. I guess it is what it is. My one hope is that the new generation of hunters will be able to find and hold dear those things that many of us are so fearful of our heritage losing. If I have to point it out, then maybe you just don't get it...


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> Bullsnot, I agree with you...Moving the rifle hunt away from the rut is purely a social issue. And, since there are so many rifle hunters who like it that way...it should stay that way.


They like it that way cause they want a "shoot" not a "hunt". And you know it! They want 85%+ success rates. Hell another dude on here posted that success rates were getting in the 70% success rates! Holy chit call the police! 70% success rates, what a crime for those poor rifle shooters. WOW. Thats bull chit and you know it. Its a freaking joke that a hunt is managed for a 85% success rate, any hunt, not just the early rifle shoot. Easiest season and easiest weapon. The hardest part of the **** hunt is getting the freaking TAG!! After that its an average of 2 days afield and wack the first love sick mature bull you run across!

Its not a social issue at all, you move the rifle out of the rut and you lower success rates. You lower success rates you can increase tags issued. You increase tags issued you get people through the draw process. Now people might get to hunt LE elk 2-3 times in their life versus OIL. Also I would love to see some archery only or primitive weapon only units.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> joshsuth said:
> 
> 
> > Utah sells more convo tags than all other states combined. We have double the Elk AZ has and they issue like 4 times as many tags as we do. Yet they wack giants every year. I pray it will change, but I doubt it ever will.
> ...


I mean LE tags, we issue like 2800 compared to AZ 7000. They have half the elk we do..... Go figure that. Oh yeah and the 1-3% success rate for any bull is such a great opportunity that people are jumping all over it. You cant be serious with these responses, they are elementary at best.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > joshsuth said:
> ...


1-3% on anybull? Where are you pulling those numbers from? Take a look at the harvest statistics and you will see it ranges on the anybull units from 7% up to 30% (with a lot of them between 15-20%). Oh and the anybull tags pretty much sell out every year so there is demand. You really need to be dedicated on the anybull hunt. You can't just show up and expect to get one.

I think they could offer more archery/muzzy/any-weapon tags as is. I'm only an "arm-chair" biologist at best, but the elk population in the majority of the state is doing just fine. The biggest issue we face is the ever increasing "need" to shoot a 400 in bull. Most people think a 320 is a 360 bull and would be happy with that class of bull. Just issue more tags in general and stop trying to increase the harvest age of the bulls to grow bigger horn.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

joshsuth said:


> Its not a social issue at all, you move the rifle out of the rut and you lower success rates. You lower success rates you can increase tags issued. You increase tags issued you get people through the draw process. Now people might get to hunt LE elk 2-3 times in their life versus OIL. Also I would love to see some archery only or primitive weapon only units.


I'm not saying you are wrong or right, and I agree or disagree (i'm withholding my personal feelings for now). We are all entitled to our opinion and you've shared yours but what about all the others that feel differently than you? What makes your opinion more valid than theirs?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's what's going to happen,, like it or not ..

The average age bull harvested is going to drop , Along with LE elk success rates,

In almost every LE elk unit , this year , watch and see ...

There will be a reduction of LE tags available next year , Any bets?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Here's what's going to happen,, like it or not ..
> 
> The average age bull harvested is going to drop , Along with LE elk success rates,
> 
> ...


Goofy, that doesn't even make sense. :roll: :roll: Why would their be a reduction in tags if the LE success drops which means more bulls survive the hunts. We would have more bulls at the end of the hunt if the success rates dropped instead of staying the same. We still have a surplus number of bulls on the majority of the units. So if we have a surplus of bulls and the success rate drops then the average age of harvest wouldn't drop either. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Here's what's going to happen,, like it or not ..
> 
> The average age bull harvested is going to drop , Along with LE elk success rates,
> 
> ...


In the name of goofy, amen.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

bullsnot said:


> joshsuth said:
> 
> 
> > Its not a social issue at all, you move the rifle out of the rut and you lower success rates. You lower success rates you can increase tags issued. You increase tags issued you get people through the draw process. Now people might get to hunt LE elk 2-3 times in their life versus OIL. Also I would love to see some archery only or primitive weapon only units.
> ...


The main reason I feel my point of view is so important is the fact that we manage hunts for ease. That just bugs the chit out of me. We manage it so that it is as easy as possible. 80%+ success rates and an average of under 2 days afield. You can increase tags without decreasing quality, AZ proves that every year. We can maximize opportunity without compromising quality, but as soon as success rates get in the 75% range people start freaking out. Its hunting man, not shooting.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

JuddCT said:


> joshsuth said:
> 
> 
> > wyoming2utah said:
> ...


Success rates for any bull tags in 2008 (the only year I could find) were 12.9% out of 14,300 tags and a 16% success rate for spike tags. There is demand because that is the only option... The areas that have higher success rates are private property, I imagine most of the general public units are in the single digits.

The big issue is moving the rifle out of the rut, or the end of the rut at best. Lower success rates, make it a "hunt" not a "shoot". And stop managing for age class, age usually has little do with large antlers. More genetics and nutrition than age, age helps but look at how many 8+ year old bulls that are killed on the Wasatch that are 320 bulls. Its like saying all adult males over 22 years old will be 6 feet tall. It aint gonna happen, manage elk on bull to cow ratios. They basically need to follow AZ's example. Unit 10 issues over 500 late Oct. rifle elk tags. That unit pumps out GIANTS every year. How come?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> I mean LE tags, we issue like 2800 compared to AZ 7000. They have half the elk we do..... Go figure that. Oh yeah and the 1-3% success rate for any bull is such a great opportunity that people are jumping all over it. You cant be serious with these responses, they are elementary at best.


Utah only offers around 3000 LE tags because it sells over 30,000 general season tags! Sorry, but I will take that over Arizona's 7000 anytime-- 33,000+ versus 7000...! Also, by way of comparison, Utah kills MORE bulls than Arizona does by a long shot!

Also, by way of comparison, success rates on some of Arizona's units are just as high and even higher even when held out of the rut. In fact, I have seen units in Arizona with success rates over 100%...how? Because in some cases more bulls are harvested than there are tags given out...? You must also remember that in Arizona's numbers success rates are calculated to include cow/calf hunts...this makes it appear that bull elk hunt success rates are lower than they actually are. In Utah the LE units success rates are calculated only for bull elk harvest. But, I still believe moving the rifle hunt out of the rut will not lower the success rates...heck, just look at the late LE hunts and you will see their success rates are just as high. The reason success rates on rifle LE hunts are so high is because the number of mature bull elk is so high. The truth is that it just isn't that hard to kill a mature bull with a rifle...with or without the rut.

I do agree, though, that we could give out more LE tags and still be ok. The problem is that the outfitters, guides, and SFWs out there feel like we need to have our LE units overloaded with monster elk and the general attitudes and expectations of hunters across the state have risen to such ridiculous heights that we will continue to manage for monster elk...


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

We have twice as many elk. Get rid of the gay spike hunt and change the seasons around and we could give out probably 15,000 bull tags. You want meat u can get a cow tag. With zero elk points and a pyramid scheme getting larger every year any fool can see something needs to be fixed. Elk should never be a once in a lifetime hunt like they are. O az doesn't have waiting periods utahs are what 5 years now.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> We have twice as many elk. Get rid of the gay spike hunt and change the seasons around and we could give out probably 15,000 bull tags. You want meat u can get a cow tag. With zero elk points and a pyramid scheme getting larger every year any fool can see something needs to be fixed. Elk should never be a once in a lifetime hunt like they are. O az doesn't have waiting periods utahs are what 5 years now.


I would take 33,000+ bull elk tags over 15,000 LE tags every time...! Bull elk hunting is far from OIL...in fact, besides hunting bull elk every year for the past who knows how long (despite my 5-year waiting period), I plan on drawing another LE elk tag in the next 2-3 years!

If you don't like the spike hunts, hunt the any-bull...if you think the LE draw is OIL start putting in for hunts with higher odds!


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> swbuckmaster said:
> 
> 
> > We have twice as many elk. Get rid of the gay spike hunt and change the seasons around and we could give out probably 15,000 bull tags. You want meat u can get a cow tag. With zero elk points and a pyramid scheme getting larger every year any fool can see something needs to be fixed. Elk should never be a once in a lifetime hunt like they are. O az doesn't have waiting periods utahs are what 5 years now.
> ...


You could do both, you could issue 15,000 LE bull tags and issue 33,000 any bull tags. Thats the whole point.

It took my wife 14 years to draw her tag this year, she will have a 5 year waiting period now add in the point creep and it will probably be another 25-30 years before she could draw the same tag.... So pretty much OIL. I am sure we could go North Cache archery so she might draw in 15 years.... But I dont think she would be too happy with me if I put her in for that.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

IF Utah were to issue 15,000 LE tags and 33,000 spike/any-bull tags, quality would take a serious hit...and, I am really sure the public wouldn't be buying it....


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I was just comparing Arizona and Utah's harvest stats...some interesting stuff:

IN 2011, Arizona harvested 321 spikes, 2729 branch-antlered bulls, and 2975 cows for a total of 6301 elk.

IN 2010 (I couldn't find the 2011 numbers), Utah harvested 7,702 bulls, and 7878 cows. A further breakdown shows that Utah killed 3711+ "any-bulls" (the plus symbol indicates that the archery kills are not accounted for). So, Utah has roughly twice as many elk and we shot more than twice the number of elk and more than twice the number of bulls and more than twice the number of cows than Arizona...again, I would take Utah's plan over Arizona's any day!

With that being said, I would still agree that we could give out more LE tags than we do...without changing the spike hunts at all.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

Get rid of the spike tags, thats simple. The only reason spike tags exists is because we dont want to kill branch antlered bulls. So we kill spikes/cows on LE units to hit population objectives. Issue your 15,000 or so any bull tags, and your 15,000 LE tags. It would be very easy to do, the Manti has like what 10,000 elk and there are 500 tags total issued... 

Quality will always take a serious hit when you allow rifle hunters to shoot elk in the rut. Success rates are high now on the Late Hunt cause there are WAY to many bulls compared to cows. I spent 5 days helping a buddy on the Wasatch archery hunt and we saw twice as many bulls as cows. 

I doubt the rifle hunt will ever be moved out of the rut as long as SFW is so entrenched in our DWR. But it is sad that with twice as many elk as AZ they issue almost 3 times as many LE tags. They are maximizing their resources and they kill GIANT bulls every year. We need to take some plays out of their book instead of managing for 85% success rates. Its embarrassing.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> I doubt the rifle hunt will ever be moved out of the rut as long as SFW is so entrenched in our DWR. But it is sad that with twice as many elk as AZ they issue almost 3 times as many LE tags. They are maximizing their resources and they kill GIANT bulls every year. We need to take some plays out of their book instead of managing for 85% success rates. Its embarrassing.


That's just it...even in Arizona the success rates for Bull elk hunts and Early Bull elk hunts are 90%+ (again, many are 100% success)...regardless of when they are held.

Also, if you were to issue 15,000 LE tags, you might as well be calling them spike tags because you will be shooting yearling bulls.

Just crunching some numbers...if Utah's elk population is 65000 and our statewide bull/cow ratio were at 30/100 (like Arizona's), then we would have approximately 15,000 bull elk. If we were to give 30,000 tags and harvested at a 40% success rate (like Arizona), we would kill 12,000 bulls leaving only 3,000.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

http://www.azgfd.gov/regs/HuntArizona2012.pdf

Here is the PDF for success rates.

Unit 10 arizona, probably the best elk unit in AZ. 
50 Early rifle tags (9/24-9/30) with a success rate of 82%
500 Late tags (11/25-12/01) with a success rate of 41%
150 Archery tags (9/09-9/22) with a success rate of 26% 
No muzzy tags offered

Unit 9 another great unit in AZ
25 Muzzy tags (9/23-9/29) with a success rate of 88%
25 Early Bull (9/24-9/30) with a success rate of 80%
100 Archery tags (9/09-9/22) with a success rate of 50%
25 Archery tags (11/11-11/24) with a success rate of 8%
275 Late Rifle tags (11/25-12/01) with a success rate of 33%

So in the TOP 2 units in AZ they offer over 1150 LE bull tags..... Utah in ALL OF ITS LE UNITS offers like 2800.... If you notice most of their rifle tags are OUT OF THE RUT. Which allows LOTS of tags to be offered with LOW success rates. Hence more tags, and yet they still kill GIANTS off these units every year. Wyoming2utah please explain to me how they can offer almost 1200 tags on two units and still produce GIANT bulls each year??


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

joshsuth said:


> The main reason I feel my point of view is so important is the fact that we manage hunts for ease. That just bugs the chit out of me. We manage it so that it is as easy as possible. 80%+ success rates and an average of under 2 days afield. You can increase tags without decreasing quality, AZ proves that every year. We can maximize opportunity without compromising quality, but as soon as success rates get in the 75% range people start freaking out. Its hunting man, not shooting.


I'm not disagreeing with you but I will tell you what the challenge is. There is a direct correllation between success rates and hunter satisfaction rates. If hunters don't see a lot of bulls and are not able to harvest a "quality" bull the hunter satisfaction index rate drops and then generally tags are cut and/or harvest objectives go up.

Until hunters, not game managers, change their perspective on these issues it will not change.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

bullsnot said:


> joshsuth said:
> 
> 
> > The main reason I feel my point of view is so important is the fact that we manage hunts for ease. That just bugs the chit out of me. We manage it so that it is as easy as possible. 80%+ success rates and an average of under 2 days afield. You can increase tags without decreasing quality, AZ proves that every year. We can maximize opportunity without compromising quality, but as soon as success rates get in the 75% range people start freaking out. Its hunting man, not shooting.
> ...


Hopefully the butt plug of LE elk applicants complaints will eventually be louder than the complaining of those that think a 70% success rate is bad. Who knows though.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Like I said before, Utah could offer more LE tags and still kill giant bulls...we too could give out more primitive weapon tags and less rifle tags during the rut. I don't have a problem with that (the general hunting public will, though)...but I definitely don't want to lose a ton of general season tags! Getting rid of the spike tags is a huge mistake in my opinion.

And again, Utah kills more than twice as many bulls, more than twice as many cows, and considerably more branch-antlered bulls than Arizona...and again, Utah offers more than twice as many tags and more than twice as many bull tags... I would take Utah over Arizona every time!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> bullsnot said:
> 
> 
> > joshsuth said:
> ...


Yeah...I hope so too. I hope that we don't have to continue managing for giant bulls on so many units. Also, just a warning...if we do eliminate general season spike hunting, that butt plug will only get worse!


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

joshsuth said:


> Hopefully the butt plug of LE elk applicants complaints will eventually be louder than the complaining of those that think a 70% success rate is bad. Who knows though.


Well there are groups, like UWC (shameless plug), that are more concerned about opportunity and preserving the hunting tradition rather than managing to inches only that show up at RAC and WB meetings but most people that show up to voice their opinion talk about quality, quality and quality. The decision makers are hearing all the complaints about diminshing quality and believe they represent the public so they make policy accordingly.

If you feel so strongly, as it appears you do, then show up to the meetings and tell them how you feel. Joining an organization that shares your views is a good idea as well as there is certainly strength in numbers.

When hunters start saying they are ok with lower success rates in exchange for more opportunity to go and hunt these bulls then a whole new world of options will open up and all of these discussions will happen at the RAC's and WB meetings.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

The thing that bugs me about the argument is that we constantly leave out the spike tags when talking about bull hunting opportunity...look at my favorite units for example--the Fish Lake and Boulder, in 2010 the Fish Lake unit had over 2,000 hunters out trying to shoot a bull and the Boulder had just under 1,000. The Manti subunit had around 4,600 hunters out hunting bulls. Those three units combined offered more opportunity than all of Arizona. And each of them had big bulls harvested off them...!


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

Why would we lose general season tags if we issued more LE tags? 

Utah offers TWICE as many General Tags, that is not what this discussion is about. Its about LE tags, which in 2 of ITS BEST units AZ offers 1200 tags. Utah in all of its LE units offers 2800. Tell me something is not broken. 

This is a discussion of LE units only, not spike or general season units.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

bullsnot said:


> joshsuth said:
> 
> 
> > Hopefully the butt plug of LE elk applicants complaints will eventually be louder than the complaining of those that think a 70% success rate is bad. Who knows though.
> ...


I know there are many that feel the same way I do. Shoot me some info, also I will find out when the RAC's are and show up.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> The thing that bugs me about the argument is that we constantly leave out the spike tags when talking about bull hunting opportunity...look at my favorite units for example--the Fish Lake and Boulder, in 2010 the Fish Lake unit had over 2,000 hunters out trying to shoot a bull and the Boulder had just under 1,000. The Manti subunit had around 4,600 hunters out hunting bulls. Those three units combined offered more opportunity than all of Arizona. And each of them had big bulls harvested off them...!


The only reason spikes are killed is to make sure units hit objectives. Thats all, because we stock pile big bulls and we cant kill them. So we kill cows and spikes to hit objectives. I bet the wasatch has 50-60 bulls per 100 cows. Could be higher, I know we saw a total of like 11 cows in 4 days. But saw over 30 different bulls.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

You are comparing apples to oranges...from what I understand, Arizona offers zero general season tags! Those general season tags in Utah affect the number of LE tags...so, you have to consider them when talking about tag numbers for a unit. You could take two of Utah's units and add then up and they would offer more bull hunting opportunity than all of Arizona combined... Because we offer so much general season opportunity, we cannot offer as much LE opportunity. 

Sorry, but I don't think anything is broken other than maybe the attitudes of hunters whose expectations are so unrealistically high that we are managing for huge bulls. We could easily offer more tags and still have good quality hunts....I agree with that. 

Also, spike tags do more than just allow the DWR to manage to objectives...they also give a ton of hunting opportunity that we couldn't get if we were not shooting them. Utah offers 5 times as many bull elk tags as Arizona does (about 35,000 to 7000)! The great thing about spike hunts is that the DWR can sell a ton of tags at a very low cost to the elk herd...as you know, spike hunt success rates are very low. This allows the DWR to give a load of the spike tags without hurting the quality of elk on a unit and still allowing a lot of people to hunt. If you were to give the same number of LE tags as you do spike tags, the number of mature bulls and quality of mature bulls would go way down.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> I bet the wasatch has 50-60 bulls per 100 cows. Could be higher, I know we saw a total of like 11 cows in 4 days. But saw over 30 different bulls.


This is why I agree that we could still give out more LE tags...we don't need bull/cow ratios this high and many units are even higher. I think we could give the same number of spike tags and give out more LE tags and still kill lots of big bulls without ever changing any season dates...


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

Why would LE tags effect general season tags?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Just the opposite...general season tags affect the number of LE tags. The more GS tags given, more bull elk killed, less LE tags given.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

General season bulls are not killed on LE units, keep GS tags the same and increase LE tags. I have no idea why GS tags would effect LE tags.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Sure they are....GS bulls are killed on every LE unit in the state. What do you think spike tags are? Spike tags are general season tags....with my general season archery tag, I could hunt any LE unit I wanted to as well as all the any-bull units. General season any-weapon hunters must choose to hunt spike units or any-bull units...but they are all general season tags.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

You win. Keep it as it is. Nothing is broken. Or we could eliminate/reduce spike hunts, increase LE tags, and move seasons around and increase LE opportunity across the board. Or we can keep it the same and make LE elk hunting in Utah a OIL or twice in a lifetime opportunity all so we can keep 85%+ success rates. You win bud! Congrats!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Still working on my PLE hunt and I'll say LE elk hunts are seriously screwed up. I'm sitting up here on the Manti by me lonesome. I've only met two other LE hunters and they wonder the same as me, where is everybody? The mountain is loaded with elk...the pre-dominant wildlife species around here. So why no hunters?

Ah, I've answered my own question, eh?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> You win. Keep it as it is. Nothing is broken.


Good hell...how many times do I need to say it for you? Give out more LE tags...GIVE OUT MORE FREAKING LE TAGS! But, sure as hell, don't eliminate general season spike tags! I will still take Utah over Arizona every day of the week! 35,000+ tags versus 7,000? It's a no-brainer to me!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> I'm sitting up here on the Manti by me lonesome. I've only met two other LE hunters and they wonder the same as me, where is everybody? The mountain is loaded with elk...the pre-dominant wildlife species around here. So why no hunters?
> 
> Ah, I've answered my own question, eh?


Hmmm...the big reason there aren't very many hunters out right now is because it is an LE hunt. We could definitely move the spike elk hunt into the LE hunt...I have no problem with that! Again, Utah sends out 35,000+ bull elk hunters every year....!


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> Finnegan said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sitting up here on the Manti by me lonesome. I've only met two other LE hunters and they wonder the same as me, where is everybody? The mountain is loaded with elk...the pre-dominant wildlife species around here. So why no hunters?
> ...


The Manti has like what, 10,000 elk.... and they give out like like 300-400 total tags.. Wasted resource.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Josh there is a saying that says you cant fix stupid.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > Finnegan said:
> ...


Sorry, but that is flat-out BS! General season archery tags are unlimited...in 2010, 4,600 bull elk hunters were on the unit (I am sure the numbers were similar in 2011, and 2012)! Why is it that you will not admit that people are spike hunting?


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

I am referring to LE tags, not spike tags. Stop hunting spikes and issue more LE tags. Spike tags ARE ONLY IN PLACE AS A POPULATION MANAGEMENT TOOL BECAUSE WE REFUSE TO INCREASE OPPORTUNITY ON LE UNITS.


Why is it that you think that people are okay with hunting spikes over big bulls. Why is that you seem to think that in peoples mind that is the same opportunity. You seem to act as if they are equal... they are not. The opportunity to hunt LE bulls and spikes is not the same. Do I need to draw a picture? I could care less about GS bulls and spike hunts. This conversation is STRICTLY about LE TAGS. Not spikes, do you understand?


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

W2U I will even play along with you then, AVERAGE spike hunt success is 13 percent I believe. Thats rifle, so I would assume that archery is WAY LESS. But I will humor you, 4600 people hunted the Manti you said, lets say 10% success rate. Thats 460 spikes. Issued like 400 tags for LE bulls, So lets say after you factor the 80% success rate for rifle, the 60% success rate for muzzy and the 25-30% success rate for archery you might hit the 50% mark. So another 200-250 bulls killed. Add the 460 spikes. Thats like 650 bulls, the unit has like 10,000 elk. I am sure bull to cow ratio is over 50 bulls per 100 cows. So that means we killed 650 bulls out of 5000 bulls...... Wasted resource.

Not too mention that 460 of those bulls were spikes..... sad. How you can even attempt to defend the current system is beyond me. How people are not up in arms is beyond me.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

joshsuth said:


> W2U I will even play along with you then, AVERAGE spike hunt success is 13 percent I believe. Thats rifle, so I would assume that archery is WAY LESS. But I will humor you, 4600 people hunted the Manti you said, lets say 10% success rate. Thats 460 spikes. Issued like 400 tags for LE bulls, So lets say after you factor the 80% success rate for rifle, the 60% success rate for muzzy and the 25-30% success rate for archery you might hit the 50% mark. So another 200-250 bulls killed. Add the 460 spikes. Thats like 650 bulls, the unit has like 10,000 elk. I am sure bull to cow ratio is over 50 bulls per 100 cows. So that means we killed 650 bulls out of 5000 bulls...... Wasted resource.
> 
> Not too mention that 460 of those bulls were spikes..... sad. How you can even attempt to defend the current system is beyond me. How people are not up in arms is beyond me.


I think W2U is a good guy and I see where he is coming from. Utah does give a lot of "opportunity". But they really are holding out wayyyyyy too much on LE tags in certain units.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Maybe I'm a little dense, but at this point I'm struggling to see what you guys are even arguing about. Both of you agree that more LE elk tags should be made available, right? 

With LE elk tags being restricted as they are, it is well that spike hunts are available to allow some additional opportunity.


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

Come on joshuth, we all want a chance at a spider bull, even if it's only once in our lifetime! How else are we going to grow that big of a bull? And what about all the PR for the state? Big bulls bring in tons of money from all over the country-world even- to be spent here for food, gas, motel rooms, you name it! Right?? It doesn't matter if most of us never get to hunt those big bulls, but we have the chance to every year in the lottery! Plus, we can still buy a tag from those given to the cons orgs, what's a few grand to drop for a hunt of a lifetime? Not only that, by managing the elk through age objectives, we can have a lot of old bulls running around with sub par antlers for those of us who don't know how to find the really, really big ones! Winning situation all around.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Catherder said:


> Maybe I'm a little dense, but at this point I'm struggling to see what you guys are even arguing about. Both of you agree that more LE elk tags should be made available, right?
> 
> With LE elk tags being restricted as they are, it is well that spike hunts are available to allow some additional opportunity.


I am glad someone get's it...Yeah, I agree, more LE tags should be given. I am arguing that we should not eliminate spike tags!


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

wyoming2utah said:


> Catherder said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I'm a little dense, but at this point I'm struggling to see what you guys are even arguing about. Both of you agree that more LE elk tags should be made available, right?
> ...


10-4 on that one. What methodology would you use to determine how many more LE elk tags can be given out? Would you change the way these herds are being managed, ie. age class?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

jasonwayne191 said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > Catherder said:
> ...


I think several things should be looked at in determining how many more LE tags could be given out--bull/cow ratios, age-class objectives, harvest success rates, and hunter satisfaction. I contend that we could as much as double tag numbers on some of our units and still be ok! Sure, the trophy crowd would throw their arms up in the air, but I still think most Utah elk hunters would be thrilled with the quality left. I don't think we need 350 class bulls around every tree!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> Not too mention that 460 of those bulls were spikes..... sad. How you can even attempt to defend the current system is beyond me. How people are not up in arms is beyond me.


Bottom line for me: Utah kills a higher percentage of elk, bull elk, and cow elk than Arizona when it comes to their total elk numbers. We more than double their harvest numbers for bulls and cows and total elk (and our herds are still growing which leaves for even more room for harvest)....and, to boot, we give 4 or 5 times more opportunity and we still kill monster bulls!


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks w2u, I would tend to agree. Do you think it would only be the trophy crowd putting up a stink, or do you think the powers that be would hissy fit themselves and disregard? There has to be way more hunters who would like to hunt a 300 class bull with a chance at something a tad bigger than the trophy hunters (and I'm not putting that group down, to each his own).


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't think the DWR cares that much....I do, though, think that we have some RAC members and WB members that would NOT like the quality of elk less than what it is. I think Karpowitz and maybe some of the heads of the DWR like the trophy quality too because of the money the conservation and auction tags bring in...


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Sounds like a winner we should go to spike deer and once in a life time buck on the whole state like our le elk units . It works so good on the elk it would work extra good on deer right w2u?

Spike elk are as gay as spike deer!

Im with tex after i draw my deer with 12 archery points or more utah can blow me. Opportunity is so much better else where.

You can't fix stupid!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Good...I hope Utah does blow you! Go somewhere else...it only helps the rest of us!

The sad thing is that it is people with attitudes like yours that is ruining hunting...this idea that the hunt is all about the kill and not about the experience.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> W2U I will even play along with you then, AVERAGE spike hunt success is 13 percent I believe. Thats rifle, so I would assume that archery is WAY LESS. But I will humor you, 4600 people hunted the Manti you said, lets say 10% success rate. Thats 460 spikes. Issued like 400 tags for LE bulls, So lets say after you factor the 80% success rate for rifle, the 60% success rate for muzzy and the 25-30% success rate for archery you might hit the 50% mark. So another 200-250 bulls killed. Add the 460 spikes. Thats like 650 bulls, the unit has like 10,000 elk. I am sure bull to cow ratio is over 50 bulls per 100 cows. So that means we killed 650 bulls out of 5000 bulls...... Wasted resource.
> 
> Not too mention that 460 of those bulls were spikes..... sad. How you can even attempt to defend the current system is beyond me. How people are not up in arms is beyond me.


Just a quick check on the actual numbers...in 2010 there were just about 900 bulls shot (of those 900, 500 were spikes) off the Manti. The bull/cow ratio on that unit was around 35/100...so, the unit had roughly 3100 bulls. I agree....more LE tags should have been given!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> You can't fix stupid!


Agreed...I don't know why I try! You truly are dumb!


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

W2U what is your fascination with spike hunting? For real I dont understand it. You once again are comparing the opportunity to hunt spikes with the opportunity to hunt big bulls in AZ. I compared our LE tags in UT, (about 2800) to AZ's LE tag opportunities (about 7,000). And they only thing you can come up with is the fact we get to hunt FREAKING SPIKES!! As if thats the game changer!!??!! For real?? You have to have something better than that! 

How about not shoot those 500 spikes, double or triple archery tags, increase muzzy tags and double rifle tags but make em hunt mid to end of October. Now spikes get to live, we dont have to slaughter cows/spikes anymore to keep population objectives in order and we will kill the same amount of bulls! And we can do that across the board!! So now instead of offering the worthless 13,000 spike tags we could issue 10,000 LE tags and keep quality! And we can draw a decent tag every 10 years, versus OIL elk hunting. 


And W2U I think people with your attitude are bad for hunting, he is campaigning for lower success rates and more opportunity. Which means "less killing" not more. You are campaigning for higher success rates and easier hunts. If you are equating the "experience" with "ease" then I have no comeback for that. 

Once again do not bring up the spike opportunity please, we are discussing LE tags.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

joshsuth said:


> W2U what is your fascination with spike hunting? For real I dont understand it. You once again are comparing the opportunity to hunt spikes with the opportunity to hunt big bulls in AZ. I compared our LE tags in UT, (about 2800) to AZ's LE tag opportunities (about 7,000). And they only thing you can come up with is the fact we get to hunt FREAKING SPIKES!! As if thats the game changer!!??!! For real?? You have to have something better than that!
> 
> How about not shoot those 500 spikes, double or triple archery tags, increase muzzy tags and double rifle tags but make em hunt mid to end of October. Now spikes get to live, we dont have to slaughter cows/spikes anymore to keep population objectives in order and we will kill the same amount of bulls! And we can do that across the board!! So now instead of offering the worthless 13,000 spike tags we could issue :shock: :shock: :shock: *10,000 LE tags and keep quality!* :shock: :shock: :shock: And we can draw a decent tag every 10 years, versus OIL elk hunting. One question here what is quality to you???
> 
> ...


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

You do realize the AVERAGE bull shot on our LE units now is just over 300, I believe it was 315..... Arizona has half our elk, and issues 7,000 LE tags and they kill as many or more record book bulls as UT. Unit 9 and 10 in AZ issue over 1200 tags alone compared to 2800 for every LE unit in UT. They kill GIANTS on it every year and have for a very very long time. 

I would say a quality bull would be 330+ with a chance for better. But obviously I assume you are not expecting a 350 class bull to be standing on the side of the road, and that it might take more than 2 days of hunting to get it done, Or expecting an 85%+ success rate, or chasing love sick bulls in the peak of the rut with a rifle, if you are willing to budge from those expectations then yes you could issue that many tags in UT and still have GIANT bulls.


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

What's so hard to understand about W2Utah is saying? He wants an opportunity to hunt elk. It's more important to him to hunt frequently than to shoot a huge bull every 15 years. 

Others may prefer the huge bull.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> The sad thing is that it is people with attitudes like yours that is ruining hunting...this idea that the hunt is all about the kill and not about the experience.


Lol your a joke! If i want experiences in the outdoors ill go camping with the boy scouts. I hunt to kill and im not affraid to say it.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

BradN said:


> What's so hard to understand about W2Utah is saying? He wants an opportunity to hunt elk. It's more important to him to hunt frequently than to shoot a huge bull every 15 years.
> 
> Others may prefer the huge bull.


Thanks...exactly!

Spike hunts are great hunts for a variety of reasons: 1) They provide hunting opportunity when otherwise there would be none--if we eliminate spike hunts, we eliminate thousands upon thousands of tags. 2) Spike hunts are great entry level hunts for novice hunters, and youth hunters. 3) Spike hunts are low success hunts that have very little effect on overall herd numbers. 4) Spike hunts provide hunters the opportunity to get out in the woods, enjoy their surroundings, and, at the same time, a chance to shoot a male animal. 5) Spike hunts are good meat hunts. 6) Spike hunts are a great way of learning a unit in preparation for that hard to draw LE tag. 7) Spike hunts are a great way to learn elk habits--cows, raghorn bulls/spikes, and mature bulls. 8) Spike hunts are a great way for families to get out and enjoy the hunting tradition.

This idea that elk hunting should only be about who can shoot the animal with the biggest horns by B&C or P&Y or whoever else's standards is dumb...hunting should be more about the experience shared with family and friends than the "quality" of animal. Sadly, so many hunters nowadays are so caught up in the numbers and inches game that they forget what hunting is supposed to be about....and, in my eyes, a spike hunt--whether a spike is killed or not--is a great way to remember those things!

I will gladly take my yearly spike hunting experiences and trade them for a 1 in 10 year trophy experience any day of the week...


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> wyoming2utah said:
> 
> 
> > The sad thing is that it is people with attitudes like yours that is ruining hunting...this idea that the hunt is all about the kill and not about the experience.
> ...


No...buddy, the joke is on you! ARen't you the one who is taking your ball and going to someone else's court?

Yeah...hunting is a blood sport, but remember spikes have blood too!


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

> I will gladly take my yearly spike hunting experiences and trade them for a 1 in 10 year trophy experience any day of the week..


You know as well as I do that it is not a 1 in 10 year trophy experience. Its is twice a lifetime if you are lucky. But your 2nd tag you will be 70 years old. 

So your advocating spikes hunts as a good hunter for novice hunters, but in the previous sentence you state that they have extremely low success rates. Just what a novice hunter needs. Then you get to explain to him how he will have to wait 20+ years to draw a tag to hunt all the big bulls he sees running around. You can go hunt GS elk on an open unit if you want the experience. There are plenty around, the whole front is available to hunt with a bow if you want the experience.

I would rather see those spikes saved and allocate those tags for big bull tags and get people through the draw system. There are plenty of open bull units for people to hunt for the experience. If that is truly what you value.

I dont understand where your going W2U, you told me all of AZ's hunts are all 90%+ success rates. I debunked that for you showing that you can issue tons of tags without killing quality then all you do is move the target to why we need spike hunts. Why would we need spike hunts if we can issue bull tags. Would not an October bull elk hunt on a unit with 40-50% success rate on big bulls be a better "experience" for a novice hunter over a spike hunt?


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

joshsuth said:


> You do realize the AVERAGE bull shot on our LE units now is just over 300, I believe it was 315..... Arizona has half our elk, and issues 7,000 LE tags and they kill as many or more record book bulls as UT. Unit 9 and 10 in AZ issue over 1200 tags alone compared to 2800 for every LE unit in UT. They kill GIANTS on it every year and have for a very very long time.
> 
> I would say a quality bull would be 330+ with a chance for better. But obviously I assume you are not expecting a 350 class bull to be standing on the side of the road, and that it might take more than 2 days of hunting to get it done, Or expecting an 85%+ success rate, or chasing love sick bulls in the peak of the rut with a rifle, if you are willing to budge from those expectations then yes you could issue that many tags in UT and still have GIANT bulls.


330+ good answer I was hoping you wasnt thinkin a 280" pizzcutter bein quality.  I have had the same thoughts your thinkin. But the opportunity loss on a spike unit would be big. For me a BIG BULL LE hunt with the opportunity to kill 370+ bulls every 20 years definatly out weights a 300"- bull every 10 years. -JMHO-


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## RichardClarke (Nov 5, 2011)

After reading through all of this, the one comment I would make is opportunity doesn't always equate to "quality". To me that is the rub here. Wyoming2utah believes a person can have a quality experience with a spike hunt, others do not. To me I compare spike hunts with urban ponds or community fisheries. Sure you are fishing, sure you are catching fish and sure you can do it cheap and with your family, but is it a "quality" experience? That is in the eye of the beholder I guess. Assuming the DWR could expand the community fisheries program by 10 times does that mean they are increasing opportunity by 10 times? In Wyoming2Utah's eyes I guess it does. Personally I am in the middle of all this. I don't get my jollies killing an 18 month old immature animal with a high powered rifle. But on the other hand, I definitely don't like the Once in a lifetime trophy hunter mentality of the LE hunts either. I just want to hunt mature branched antlered bulls on a QUALITY unit. I don't need to kill a 350 class bull and I don't need to have a 75% success ratio. I just don't want somebody telling me about all of the opportunity there is because I can kill an 18 month old juvenile elk every year with an over the counter tag....


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

Holy hell, what was my question?


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## DarKHorN (Mar 4, 2012)

Fishracer said:


> Holy hell, what was my question?


I think they answered it on the first page. :lol:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

This is the last comment I will make on this thread...

In 2010, a survey was conducted in Utah on the elk management strategies. In that survey, question #20 stated: " Discontinuing all SPIKE BULL ELK hunts could potentially provide an additional 500 Limited Entry permits. This would reduce drawing odds from the current odds of 1 in 16 to 1 in 13.5. Spike bull hunts provide opportunity for 12,500 hunters to hunt elk every year, while helping managers maintain bull-to-cow ratios to maximize elk production. Overall, what is your opinion of general season SPIKE BULL ELK hunting in Utah?"

The results of that question showed that about 50% of those surveyed supported spike elk hunts, while about 25% were neutral and about 25% opposed.

On the same survey, question #23 asks: " Elk management in Utah currently offers a variety of hunting strategies, accommodating both hunters who like to hunt every year, and providing limited entry areas for hunters who want the opportunity to harvest a large bull 3-4 times in their lifetimes, or the opportunity to harvest a very large bull 1-2 times in their lifetimes. Which of the following best describes your personal 
philosophy about how elk hunting should be managed?"

The results showed that over 50% were in favor of the current strategy, about 20% wished to hunt elk every year, about 15% wished to manage for hunts every 2-3 years, and about 10% wanted the state's elk units to be all LE.

Also, question 21 deals with the size of bulls hunters would like to see on LE units, hunters surveyed overwhelmingly supported the idea of issuing more tags with the understanding that this meant smaller bulls.

Other than managing for too high of age-objectives on many units, it seems that Utah's elk are managed like the majority of hunters want...!


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

Interesting. w2u do you have a link to that survey? I would love to read it in full. I know I'm new to the state but it seems to me the dept could still keep the spike/cow hunts and offer more LE tags without losing what the majority of hunters want. Maybe I'm looking at this skewed.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I remember filling out that survey! I was part of the 15% that wanted to manage for elk hunts every 3 years. I thought more people would have shared my opinion, apparently not... I think if they were managed for every 3 years you would have lots of small bulls but still there would be large animals out there. It's like general deer units. Yea there are a lot of 2-4 point bucks. But there are also monsters hiding that people kill on general units every year! That would be my kind of elk hunting!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/2010-03-03.pdf

copy the above link and paste it to your address bar and it should work...


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## jasonwayne191 (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks w2u! Interesting study. You seem to be pretty familiar with the fish and game site, would you mind just a bit more help? It's not the easiest to find things on, but I'm sure they have some place where info related to studies, surveys and such, I just haven't been able to find them. Sent an email to dept but haven't received a reply yet as to where I can find them. Got any ideas? Thank you! Just trying to familiarize myself to my new hunting state.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

You know what is interesting once I read through that. 45% of those surveyed said they would prefer a system that would allow them to draw every 5-10 years. This would equate to a 4-5 yr age objective bull size 270+ B&C. I agree with that and remember that was my choice. So that was what the majority preferred according to the survey. After a quick tallying of the numbers here is our current age objectives by unit:

4.5-5.0 8 units managed
5.5-6.0 9 units managed
6.5-7.0 4 units managed
7.5-8.0 6 units managed

It doesn't appear that the state actually listened to those surveyed according to the numbers. It should also be mentioned that Age objective will increase from 5.5-6.0 to 6.5-7.0 if population objective increases from 4800 to 6500.

So for some reason if the populations increases they actually will require older bulls from that point on. I would think it should stay the same or go down, since that would mean an increase of opportunity. The majority of our units are managed for 5.5 years plus (19 units). We only have 8 units managed for the 4-5 year range which was the preferred age of those surveyed.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

bowhunt3r4l1f3 said:


> You know what is interesting once I read through that. 45% of those surveyed said they would prefer a system that would allow them to draw every 5-10 years. This would equate to a 4-5 yr age objective bull size 270+ B&C. I agree with that and remember that was my choice.


That's my opinion too...the frustrating thing is that this survey was totally disregarded by the WB as far as age-objectives go!


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Age objectives by themselves is no way to manage the herd. The last push to raise the age objectives was by "Trophy Hunters" who were complaining that the "quality" was no longer available on L.E. units yet the units were still over the age objective.

My bull from last year was aged at 7 years and scored just shy of 320. It was a bull I personally was thrilled to get after 18 days of hunting. I did see a few bigger bulls and that made all that much more fun. I never thought I was "owed" any bull. Just the opourtunity to hunt a branch antlered bull.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

Age is just one of many factors that determines horn growth. Not all 8+ year old bulls with be 350+ bulls, all units should be managed for bull/cow ratios not age.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Managing bull elk permits based on HARVESTED age averages is inane! Focusing on the average B&C score is even more nonsensical...! I admit to once being obsessed with B&C scores, hell I made a pretty good living off of such nonsense. Maybe it is me getting older, or maybe (hopefully) it is me getting wiser, but I do not care about what a bull scores, nor do I care how old a bull is when it is standing in front of me screaming his guts out. Over the last three hunting seasons I have been lucky enough to help several friends and family on LE elk hunts. All had great hunts, NONE harvested a bull over the magic 350" mark. I will be heading to the hills next week to help my 69 year old uncle on a LE muzzy elk hunt. He has never killed an elk, much less a Booner bull. Of course he dreams of killing a 400" bull, but he will be in seventh heaven if he can outwit a mature bull that will "look good on the wall". My cousin killed a decent 5X6 on Sunday afternoon. He hiked in to a remote canyon, called in his very FIRST mature bull, shot it, and then called me and asked for help getting it out. I left my house at 7 pm Sunday, returned home at 6 am Monday, just in time to talk my daughter to practice for Beauty and the Beast. It was worth every dime spent, every scrap from fallen trees, the wet feet from wading the Strawberry River with 150# meat on my back, just to share the experience my cousin had in his first 'trophy' animal. It isn't about inches, or success rates, or at least it shouldn't be. It should be about adventures, trials, memories, connecting with nature, and being in God's Country!!


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/D ... 14682.html

"Decent" bull killed in AZ with their crappy management..... This is on a unit that issues over 500 tags. Almost a quarter of what the entire state of UT kills. This is not the only 440+ bull killed in AZ this year. They must be doin somethin right...  I think we would all agree this is a "quality" bull.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

OK,, I've read enough ...
Comparing Utah to Arizona 9/10 units are COMPLETLY different.
They are relatively flat , THICK pines and cedars , takes optics and glassing
out of the ball game. Plus if there's any weather at all your restricted to the
maintained roads or YOUR STUCK! You cant travel around down there like Utah.

josh, If we issued 500 permits on Monroe, or Pahvant, or the SW Desert ,
or even the Wasatch/Manti/Nebo in November the 'mature' elk would be decimated
in ONE YEAR!!!!!..........They had to eliminate late hunts on both the Wasatch and Nebo
because they couldn't handle a couple dozen late tags ....... WONT WORK IN UTAH !!!


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

goofy elk said:


> OK,, I've read enough ...
> Comparing Utah to Arizona 9/10 units are COMPLETLY different.
> They are relatively flat , THICK pines and cedars , takes optics and glassing
> out of the ball game. Plus if there's any weather at all your restricted to the
> ...


Goofy, SWD is flat with thick pines and cedars. I grew up in Cedar City and spent TONS of time on the SWD and Panguitch Lake, both units you need the Rut to do well. The Boulder is THICK and flat, can you imagine hunting that unit in Mid October. It would be BRUTAL. The late hunt is mostly on the winter range in November where bulls are vulnerable, which is why the hunt should be done in mid October while the bulls are still high and recuperating from the rut and holed up. And once the lead starts flying opening morning those bulls would disappear and hole up. It can easily be done, people just need to think out of the box. Not all units could handle 500 tags, but the majority could. Obviously trial and error would come into play to determine tag amounts.

And the Wasatch could not handle a few dozen late tags!! LOL... they bull to cow ratio is like 50 bulls to 100 cows and the unit has like 8000 elk.... We saw 17 different bulls from one glassing point in ONE CANYON in a place we have never been!

It should be like this IMO for the units like the Wasatch and Manti

300 Archery Tags- Success rates would be in the 30%
150 Muzzy Tags- Success rates would be in the 60%
20 Early Rifle Rags (for those that want to wait 30 years to hunt the rut with a rifle) Success rates would be 90%+
300 Mid Oct Rifle tags (Hard to gauge exactly what the success rate would be, probably similar to the Muzzy) could offer more is success rates are low enough.

So you would probably take a total 300-400 bulls off of a unit that has 8000 elk with bull to cow ratios of probably 50 bulls to 100 cows.

The Wasatch and Manti could EASILY handle 1000 tags each if the seasons were done correctly.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> > And the Wasatch could not handle a few dozen late tags!! LOL... It was the DWR that took away these late hunts, ask them
> > they bull to cow ratio is like 50 bulls to 100 cows and the unit has like 8000 elk.... We saw 17 different bulls from one glassing point in ONE CANYON in a place we have never been! how many cows did ypu see?
> > It should be like this IMO for the units like the Wasatch and Manti
> >
> > ...


 While I do agree season date could be move around and gain a few
more LE permits, The truth is, It wont happen .......
Hunters in Utah want to hunt elk (LE) in September ...
And I see a LE elk tag reduction coming in 2013. JMHO.


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## joshsuth (Sep 17, 2012)

> Hunters in Utah want to hunt elk (LE) in September ...


I agree, I want to hunt elk in Sept also. But if you want to hunt elk when they are the most vulnerable you should have to do it with a primitive weapon.

I was basing my numbers off of last years tag quotas, I did not look up this years tag numbers.

The night we saw 17 different bulls we saw 7 cows.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

More bulls than cows has been the common story across the Wasatch this year.
( I started another thread on this very topic )

The Wasatch ,in particular , Is losing it's mid-tier bulls with very little recruitment
being seen in rag horns and spikes . Fewer and fewer cows running around on
the Wasatch .... I see trouble brewing in the future there . This will = less LE elk permits.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> .............................It isn't about inches, or success rates, or at least it shouldn't be. It should be about adventures, trials, memories, connecting with nature, and being in God's Country!!


Bingo!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Had a blast chasing elk on the Wasatch unit with my uncle and his three sons. Saw tons of elk...BOTH cows and bulls, with a good mixture of mature, young, spike bulls. Saw two bulls that were well north of 375", ended up putting a 3 1/2 yr old bull in the freezer, with NO REGRETS. We hunted hard for five days, my soon to be 70 yr old uncle put in more than 6 miles on three days, and no less than 4 mile on the other two. The Wasatch Unit is NOT hurting, quality nor quantity wise!!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

joshsuth said:


> I grew up in Cedar City...


That explains a lot...Josh Sutherland; your brother is Nathan Sutherland...you lived in Fiddler's Canyon. Am I right? Now I get it...!



joshsuth said:


> The Boulder is THICK and flat, can you imagine hunting that unit in Mid October. It would be BRUTAL. The late hunt is mostly on the winter range in November where bulls are vulnerable, which is why the hunt should be done in mid October while the bulls are still high and recuperating from the rut and holed up.


Here is the thing, Josh, your observations of units are just yours...the comment above is a perfect example--I have spent loads of time on the Boulder. I hunted LE archery elk on the Boulder 7 years ago and have hunted spikes/cows virtually every year for a long time. In all of those years, we have spent most of our elk hunting time in the quakies/timber where the spikes/cows are, but the big bulls are almost always low in the junipers/oak brush. They stay down in that stuff throughout most of the year. A lot of the bull elk on the Boulder spend much of their entire year in the same areas...if I were to hunt that unit with a rifle in mid-October it would be no different than hunting it in August, September, or November.

On most of our LE units, if we were to be giving as many tags as you want, we would destroy the quality of animals we have....! People are already screaming about the lack of quality bulls on some...!


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