# Backcountry Firearm



## jer (Jan 16, 2012)

Hey all,

I am usually found over on the fishing side of this forum, but I have a question for you all. I'm looking to add a new firearm to my collection. This gun would solely be used as a field gun for when I'm in the back country. But really, it's mostly for my wife's peace of mind. I think a revolver would suit me best. I want something that will back a punch, but be as lite as possible. I am looking at the Ruger SP-101, the 5771 model with the 4.20" barrel.

http://ruger.com/products/sp101/specSheets/5771.html

Thoughts? I've had a couple guys I work with say the 357 isn't powerful enough to handle bears, cougars, etc...I always thought it was :? . I would like all your opinions on the 357 and the SP101 in general. Also any other suggestions are welcome.

Thanks 

Jeremy


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

In my opinion if you want something that is going to handle bears, get some bear spray. The .357 will kill either a bear or a cat but if you are in the posistion where you need to use it on a bear you may be too late. Most cats will run off as soon as they know that you have seen them.

For a revolver I would go with the GP100 just for the extra round in the cylinder.


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

357 is not a bad choice; it's got enough power to handle most things in north America; I'm sure it can take a bear; but I'd imagine a 22 mag can take a bear as long as you shoot straight. I've always assumed with bears it's the adrenalin and not being able to hit them that is the problem. But I've never shot at one so perhaps I'm wrong. You can get a lot of the power with more rounds out of some of the auto's too. Not to mention faster follow up shots. I've never owned one so perhaps someone else could confirm or deny but a 10mm from the ballistic tables is almost the same as 357 and you can carry more rounds in the mag. Not trying to open the old more rounds vs power debate but I know the 357sig is close too. Personally the 41 mag is the best middle of the road revolver round IMO. But they are hard to get stuff for. They can be loaded up to almost the heat of a 44 but with out as much of the weight and recoil or it can be loaded similar to a 357mag. But hand loading for a 41 is pretty much a must due to the rarity and expense of off the shelf bullets.
+1 on the bear spray; I saw a demonstration of that stuff once and they gave some stat to show it's more affective then shooting one. Something to the effect that if you wound a bear he's still mad at you; you spray a bear they can't see or smell you for a while giving you a chance to run.


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

I have to agree with everyone else's comments. Bear spray is the way to go against bears. (If your bottle is leaking don't go use the bathroom) For me I take a 9mm Glock outdoors for protection against two legged predators not the four legged predators. I am not saying you should buy a Glock or a 9mm, that is just what works for me. With cougars being thin skinned, I would think that any caliber/bullet you use for self defense against humans will work on cougars. With today's hollow point technologies 9mm, 40, 45, 38, 357 they are all close in what they do. I know some on here will disagree with me, but in the end it comes down to what you can shoot accurately. It don't matter how big your bullet is, if you can't hit your intended target, that big bullet won't matter.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

jer, The SP101 and .357 are plenty with heavy bullets. The SP101 is kind of a heavy little guy though. If you like .357 Rugers look at an LCR before you pick. Not near as pretty but weighs nearly nothing.


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## jer (Jan 16, 2012)

Thanks for the input guys, keep it coming  let me just clarify I do have bear spray...this gun is mostly for my wife's fear. She thinks i need more than spray. What a great excuse to buy another gun


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## jer (Jan 16, 2012)

Also I'm open to any make/model the Ruger just caught my eye


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Well now, if this is to make the wife feel better, a Kimber 1911 is just the ticket 


-DallanC


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## Dekashika (Oct 23, 2007)

You may want to look at the Taurus Judge Public Defender. Very lightweight, 45 LC, or 410 shells.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Dekashika said:


> You may want to look at the Taurus Judge Public Defender. Very lightweight, 45 LC, or 410 shells.


I am not sure I would call 28 oz light but to each their own.

I like the Smith & Wesson 340PD, its a .357 and weighs 11.4 oz. Shooting it is no fun as it kicks like the devil but the thing is so pleasant to pack because of its light weight. I have hiked many miles with mine in my front pocket and never even notice it. Its a good insurance policy.


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## kochanut (Jan 10, 2010)

man up and get a S&W 500. that should take care of anything that comes near you. be sure to bring toilet paper, because firing that hand gun causes you to lose bowl control, i can atest to that


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Are we packing outside of Utah? I went thru this almost 40 years ago- got a 357- What I found out over those 40 years is that I needed noise not a cannon. I pack with goats and what I carry is for their protection mostly.
My wife carries a S&W 22 model 2213 and I usually carry a Ruger P95 9mm or a Buckmark 22. They all provide noise very well. Nothing wrong with buying a nice bigger pistol if that's what you want- just not so sure it's needed.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Just to offer an opinion on the other side of the fence.....I think 357 mag is a good choice but don't forget the laws of physics. A very light 357 mag will have considerable recoil and if you are going to carry a gun you should shoot it well enough for it to be effective. Excess recoil will decrease accuracy if for no other reason than uncomfortable practice. And in the outdoors you really need not worry about concealment. You might consider a medium frame revolver. There are plenty to choose from. Smith and Wesson model 66 for example and if you are concerned about cost Taurus makes a pretty good quality copy. It is what I carry in the outdoors. With a 4 inch barrel it is not that cumbersome. Good luck.


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## jer (Jan 16, 2012)

Just had the opportunity to go shoot a GP100, SP101, and SW 686. All were nice to shoot, but I did notice the difference in the lighter, smaller SP101. I totally preferred the GP100 over it when shooting the full 357 mag loads. I think the 357 would be a good overall fit for me. It can be used as a good field gun, but can also be fun to go plink around with. I'm pretty stuck on a revolver as well. Also I will not be using it for CCW. It will be an open carry, mostly for when I'm dragging my tube to some backcountry lake. I know the GP and SW weigh in around 40 oz with the 4" barrel, but I honestly didn't think the weight would be unbearable to carry. I just wish I was man enough to carry the SW500


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

Big kitties are actually very fragile animals. I'm comfortable carrying 9mm or even .380 for feline threats. 
Black Bears have skulls that have a reputation for being tough for a handgun to penetrate, but their bodies are very lightly constructed. Taking down a black bear is roughly equivalent to taking down a human.

I have several "powerful" handguns that would be more than enough for predator defense (including humans), but I often settle for something that's easier to carry or more compact, over something with extra power.

When I want to go light, I usually carry a S&W 642 Lady Smith .38 Special, with +P loads. Fully loaded, it still weighs only one third of what most of my other revolvers weigh _empty_. Tossing a SpeedStrip in one of my pockets doesn't add much weight, if I want the ability to reload. Recoil isn't as bad as most people want you to believe - even in the .357 Mag model (I've had a lot of trigger time with both).

When I'm willing to carry a bit more weight, I strap on a thigh holster with my Ruger P95 (DC-only 9mm) and a magazine full of Gold Dots (I think I'm running 147 gr right now). Depending on the area, I may even put another full 10 or 15 round magazine in the mag pouch on the thigh rig, loaded with hot hard-cast 122 gr lead FPs. (for Moose :shock: )

About the only time I go 'bigger' than .38 +P or 9mm, is when I'm hunting in an area where I want to carry my .44 Mag - like when I'm in one of my favorite hunting spots in the Uintahs, that includes 3 bear dens (and one of the sows _always_ has cubs).

All of that being said...
I'm a bear magnet. If there are bears in the area, they will find me. I've been charged by sows with cubs several times. Everyone of them was a mock charge, but that doesn't really make you feel any better, at the time. -)O(- 
Noise is a great warning. But, I found that a big muddy stick was the bear deterrent of choice, in Florida - banging it on trees, swinging it around, or even throwing it at the bear.

Since 1998, I haven't had to fire a shot at a bear, or even a warning shot in the direction of a bear. Big muddy sticks, noise, and making it known that you're a human has been enough.
(In 1998, I had to fire a shot at a charging boar in the Currant Creek area. ... a risky choice with a muzzle loader. :roll: )


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

A revolver is a nice thing to have in the back country. After all, Elmer Keith certainly experienced more of the wild back country than most of us ever will and he packed various revolvers of just about every caliber imaginable. So yes - this is a fine excuse to get yourself a good revolver 8)

While I often pack semi-autos too, really a revolver is the most versatile handgun. With a revolver the nose shape of the bullet is not critical to feeding so you can use effective wide flat-nose lead bullets besides hollow-points. You can also use snake loads filled with shot (_or load your own with Speer components_). With something like a .357, you can also use light .38 Special loads for practice and small game.

I would certainly avoid the small pocket revolvers in .357 like the Ruger LCR etc. Too light so shooting heavy .357 loads is more difficult. Plus they have a short sight radius.
Better off starting with something like the SP101 - which is a pretty good choice.
I also would probably stick with a 4" barrel. Longer than that and the barrel starts to become a problem when packing or sitting in/on a vehicle. If you could find a S&W Model 66 .357 or an old Ruger Security Six, they are an excellent size and weight. The S&W 686 and Ruger GP100 are both good, but a bit heavier. Stainless is good because we all know how it can rain in the Uintahs every afternoon. Old Dan Wessons were excellent as well.

While a DA revolver may be a bit faster to shoot in DA-mode and load/unload, there is still nothing wrong with a SA cowboy revolver. The Ruger Blackhawk is the king of these and deservedly remains popular to this day. Nothing points naturally quite like a SA revolver for the first quick shot.

When you go up in caliber from .357 Mag (_which can also shoot cheap .38 Specials_) you go up in the price of ammo as well. .41 and .44 Mags, plus the .45 Colt (_some call it "Long Colt"_) have more recoil as well. This may be a factor if the wife has to shoot it. The .44 Special is always an excellent choice, offering big performance with reasonable recoil, but ammo is also expensive and harder to find. I love my Blackhawk in that caliber though.

Really big calibers are not too necessary here, and the revolvers they are chambered in are big and heavy. Recoil recovery is difficult - so you may be better off to double-tap with a lesser round than hope the first shot went good with your 460/500. Practice to get good with these is Expensive.

Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore has an excellent FAQ on their site about bear defense. He is about as expert as they get on killing bears, having killed dozens and been in on the kill of dozens more. He offers this advice on our Utah black bears and also head shots:

"Almost any center fire cartridge of 357 bore or larger with a very hard non-expanding, flat nosed bullet will pierce a bears skull with direct /frontal (between the eyes) hits. From the side angle, shoot them right at the bottom of the ear canal. These two shots are instant death, if you are using correct ammo. The old MYTH that bullets will slide off a bear's skull is pure hogwash, when using modern ammo featuring bullets that will not mushroom when fired out of a powerful handgun.

Black bears are very different mentally, than grizzly bears. Black bears come in red, brown, blonde, and black color phases, but they are all black bear species and should be considered "black bears" regardless of color phase. While black bears have much the same physical qualities (normally smaller) of grizzly bears, they GENERALLY have a much different mindset.

To stop black bears, all you have to do is hurt them; you do not need to kill them. Almost any center fire handgun cartridge will dissuade a black bear if you hit them well with it. The more powerful the cartridge, the more damage you'll potentially do to the bear, but nearly any black bear will turn tail if he is hit with a cartridge such as good stiff 9mm load. I know this argues against prevailing wisdom, but prevailing wisdom is based mostly on speculation, not real world experience and is not really wisdom.

We make "bear loads" in smaller chamberings such as 9mm, (item 24F) 38 SPL+P, (item 20H) and 357 mag. (item 19A). We do this because a lot of people own those guns and don't want to buy a 454 Casull or 44 mag. I would have no problem defending myself against a black bear attack (and have done so) with the proper 9mm ammo. I prefer a more powerful/bigger cartridge, but the 9MM will get it done, even on grizzlies, if you take their brain. Of course, making a brain shot under such duress, will take practice and cool nerves..."

A revolver for all back country uses - old Elmer would be proud!


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

"9mm isn't as effective as? There may be small differences in these calibers but when seen next to a rifle or shotgun they ALL pale in comparison! Get over your "caliber crutches" and learn how to shoot!" James Yeager


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## Dekashika (Oct 23, 2007)

Airborne said:


> Dekashika said:
> 
> 
> > You may want to look at the Taurus Judge Public Defender. Very lightweight, 45 LC, or 410 shells.
> ...


FWIW, the new Public Defenders are available in an aluminum frame and weigh 20oz.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

I know a certain segment of the shooting population like them, but when you start digging into the reviews of the Judge and its close relatives you find a lot of flies in the ointment. Therefore I would not recommend any version of the Judge or the similar S&W as a serious Backcountry Firearm.

They are a close range gun with shotshells - even 000 Buck (3 pellet = 2.5" / 5 pellets = 3") loads spread excessively beyond 10 yards. In fact many shot loads spread excessively with with holes in the pattern at closer distances, though a small shot size load would be fine for snakes at 5 yards. In addition penetration by any pellet size is not up to FBI defensive handgun standards of 12" in ballistic gel. Birdshot is particularly bad defensively, except for birds and the 000 usually only penetrates 4.5".
.410 slugs are a wimpy 96-grains or so and of soft lead that penetrates poorly. Figure that the similar bore .40 S&W shoots 155 to 180-grain better-built HPs that far out-penetrate the little shotgun slug which is lucky to do 7.5". A .41 Mag it is not.

The cylinder in a .45 Colt Peacemaker revolver, which is properly sized to the cartridge, measures 1.609" long. That means that a .45 Colt bullet fired in a 2-1/2" chamber Taurus has to jump over an inch of additional free space just to reach the forcing cone. Fired in a 3" chamber Judge, that same bullet has to jump an additional 1.5" of space to reach the revolver's forcing cone! In addition, the rifling in the bore is very shallow because it has to be to keep shot pellet upset to a reasonable minimum (which it still has issues with as noted above).

The accuracy bottom line is that, while Taurus revolvers in general have earned a reputation for mediocre accuracy, these .45/.410 revolvers have lowered the bar. One author, writing for a respected gun magazine, praised the Judge to the skies (_naturally, since print magazines never publish an unfavorable review of an advertiser's product_), but admitted that it would barely keep its bullets on a humanoid silhouette target at 25 yards! Considering that practically any Colt or Ruger .45 LC revolver will average 2-3" groups at that range with factory loaded ammo and no tuning whatsoever, the Judge's accuracy as a .45 LC revolver is simply unacceptable.

Summation of the Judge concept:
Birdshot, in any gauge, is for little birds and snakes - check your pattern density - don't assume.
Buckshot out of a .410 does not penetrate enough to be an effective personal defense load nor is is accurate beyond 10 yards maximum.
The rifled slug is also a disappointment and doesn't have enough weight or power or penetration to be effective as a defense load.
The .45 Long Colt loads had plenty of penetration and would be the preferred defense load for this pistol but accuracy at any longer range isn't up to usual .45 Colt standards but work up close. However an actual .45 LC would be a superior revolver if that is what you are forced to use for defense.


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## ckamanao (Mar 20, 2010)

10mm, 200gr Nosler JHP, 1250fps / 694ft lbs.
10mm, 155gr. Barnes TAC-XP, 155gr. @ 1400fps / 675ft/lbs
10mm, 135gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point, 1600fps / 767 ft.lbs.

I carry a Glock 20, 10mm in the hills. .40 S&W conversion barrel in town.

BTW, Iv'e heard that the Icelandic Police Dept also issues the G20....for Polar Bears.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

ckamanao said:


> BTW, Iv'e heard that the Icelandic Police Dept also issues the G20....for Polar Bears.


This sounded 'fishy' to me--a quick google search found there are no sustainable populations of polar bears in Iceland. Very occasionally one will ride an ice sheet from Greenland, we are talking once every 10-20 years (latest was in 2008 and the one before that was 1993). I doubt they issue their handguns based upon an event that happens once every decade or so.

Frisco Pete-->thank you for the run down on the 'Judge'. I have read several gun reviews by impartial (not paid) gun writers that echo your assessment. That entire line of pistols is one big pile crud. It amazes me how many gun guys fell for that scam, it really disheartened me when I read a favorable review in the American Rifleman NRA magazine. Since then I can't take any review they write seriously, what does it say about an authority on firearms that is incapable of writing a negative review.

Here is the NRA review:
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Article ... 526&cid=26

Here is Chuck Hawks impartial unpaid review:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/taurus_judge.htm

Remember this when you are researching a gun to purchase and you find nothing but favorable reviews.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

ckamanao said:


> 10mm, 200gr Nosler JHP, 1250fps / 694ft lbs.
> 10mm, 155gr. Barnes TAC-XP, 155gr. @ 1400fps / 675ft/lbs
> 10mm, 135gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point, 1600fps / 767 ft.lbs.
> 
> ...


+1 that's what I use now after selling both my .44's


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

As a side note, the judge IMHO is great for its intended purpose, home defense. Ive shot one quite a bit and I can tell ya that 3" 000 buck at 7 yards is devastating on a life size target putting all 5 pellets in a decent group. I will agree much beyond 10 yards its as affective as a paper weight when using any .410 stuff. Its decent with the .45 LC out to about 25 yards but not much further then that. Not a back country gun by any means.


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

Bo0YaA said:


> As a side note, the judge IMHO is great for its intended purpose, home defense. Ive shot one quite a bit and I can tell ya that 3" 000 buck at 7 yards is devastating on a life size target putting all 5 pellets in a decent group. I will agree much beyond 10 yards its as affective as a paper weight when using any .410 stuff. Its decent with the .45 LC out to about 25 yards but not much further then that. Not a back country gun by any means.


I don't know that I'd call it "devastating", especially with only 5 pellets (3 in a 2.5" shell). In the testing I've done with .410 buckshot (26" bbl), terminal performance is roughly equivalent to .22 LR - but with even less penetration.
If I wanted to punch .36 cal holes in some one, with minimal tissue damage, pretty much any .35 caliber handgun would do the job with 'hard-cast' lead. But, it would be just as easy to load up a .22 and call it good.

We all have different ideas of what type of performance is necessary, and what methods to use, to defend our homes. But, the Judge (in any form) and .410 don't fit into mine, in any way.


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## shortbreath54 (Apr 23, 2009)

Frisco Pete using a 25 yard test for a 2 to 3 " personal defense pistol is like comparing a 30-30 at 400 yards 
It was designed as a close range 1-7 yard weapon. Works very well for that purpose. 45 lc is a good round for 4 legged prey on the charge 25 yrd charge is not yet a threat 5 yards is,Bear spray is shown to be 91% effective at stopping a Grizzly Bear, shooting 71%


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## shortbreath54 (Apr 23, 2009)

I also live in Oregon and fish on many coastal rivers,I did alot of research into this due to the incredable amount of bears we have in S W Oregon along the salmon streams. We have so many bears here that they issue over four thousand second bear tags a year for this area.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

All I know is I would not want to be on the end of 5 000 pellets at 7 yards or closer. Also, it doesn't take long to pull the trigger 5 or 6 times when in a panic and the fact that you can put 25-30 projectiles down range in that period of time without having to pay to much attention to aiming is pretty devastating if your on the receiving end. Not sure what you are using for testing the penetration but as I'm sure you know, the 22lr will out penetrate several different calibers people use for home defense. 

Personally, I would take a judge over any .22lr for personal defense and for home protection I would pick it over any 9mm as well and feel very safe doing so. 

Go shoot something with actual flesh or maybe even a watermelon with 5-6 shots of 000 buck at close range and see if it changes your opinion. I think it will


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

HICKOK45 (my new hero) did a video on YouTube about the Judge. He doesn't come to a conclusion about defense capabilities but does decide it's fun to shoot. So is mine.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

shortbreath54 said:


> Frisco Pete using a 25 yard test for a 2 to 3 " personal defense pistol is like comparing a 30-30 at 400 yards
> It was designed as a close range 1-7 yard weapon. Works very well for that purpose. 45 lc is a good round for 4 legged prey on the charge 25 yrd charge is not yet a threat 5 yards is,Bear spray is shown to be 91% effective at stopping a Grizzly Bear, shooting 71%


I think the issue when it comes to the topic of preferred Backcountry Firearms goes beyond stopping charges at close range, though the focus always seems to devolve around such.

My idea of a Backcountry handgun perhaps mirrors that of Elmer Keith - an all-around handgun with sufficient power and accuracy, not only close up, but at longer range.
That is because for some of us a Backcountry handgun is also used as a gun of opportunity. This could include shooting coyotes and other varmints at longer-than-self-defense ranges. With .357, .41, .44. Or .45LC revolver you are able to do this. Based on personal experience I know that hits on a coyote-sized critter can be made at ranges quite long with a little practice. Even a coyote at 140 yards is in danger from a 250-gr SWC from my .44 special Blackhawk if I do my part. The same is true of many other calibers and pistols.

Obviously people that spent a lifetime in the hills packing a handgun like Keith and Skeeter Skelton were very capable of surprising long-range shots to put game, large and small, in the pot, eradicate vermin, and entertain yourself in general by busting rocks across the canyon!

The fact that such an all-around handgun is able to fill a defensive role as well IMO makes it superior over-all to one that attempts to do two disparate tasks and fulfills neither optimally. 140 years of history and experience are behind the traditional choices.
Whereas the new miracle do-it-all shotgun/handgun has a certain strong attraction I think the potential owner should be aware of their limitations as well as their possibilities.

Basically it comes down to informed choice and being aware of your needs in a Backcountry handgun. Then choose accordingly. That is why they make all kinds.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I wonder how often people have to actually shoot animals in Utah to save themselves from harm?

I know, I know...party pooper.

Buy whatever you think is neato then work out the reasoning.


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## Uni (Dec 5, 2010)

Cooky said:


> I wonder how often people have to actually shoot animals in Utah to save themselves from harm?
> 
> I know, I know...party pooper.
> 
> Buy whatever you think is neato then work out the reasoning.


I only personally know one person. He had to shoot a cougar back in the 80's.

Still, would rather be safe. I have never seen a cougar in the wild, yet I carry every time I go out.

I honestly am more afraid of moose than I am of any predator.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

Perhaps the worst mistake I have made in guns is selling my SP101, and buying a LCR. The LCR is a kicking, mean, nasty little gun. Its very inaccurate, and because it punishes the shooter it maks you flinchy. That SP101(I put hogues on mine) was small enough to conceal(mine had a hammer, and the 2" barrel) but big enough that shooting the .357 wasn't horrible. Its stainless and a ruger(built like a tank) so its great for a pack gun. Currently saving the funds to get another.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Cooky said:


> I wonder how often people have to actually shoot animals in Utah to save themselves from harm?
> 
> I know, I know...party pooper.
> 
> Buy whatever you think is neato then work out the reasoning.


As Frisco Pete pointed out I really think you are more likely to use a firearm in the outdoors in Utah to shoot at animals just for the sake of shooting (varmints) than for self defense. And I think you are more likely to use a firearm for defense in the outdoors against humans than against animals in Utah. And I think you may be more likely to use a firearm for defense against humans in the outdoors than in down town Salt Lake City. ( In the city a cell phone may be your best weapon against crime but in the outdoors where there may or probably is no cell phone service and response time is measured in hours rather than minutes is much more comforting to be armed.) All that said, it just makes me feel better to have a 357 Mag. on my hip when I am enjoying the great outdoors.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Ruger GP100 .357


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

Uni said:


> I have never seen a cougar in the wild, yet I carry every time I go out.
> 
> I honestly am more afraid of moose than I am of any predator.


I've been followed by a Cougar twice, that I know of. I don't think I was being stalked, since I could actually see the cat. I think it was just a curious cat, or a territorial display.
I've come across two cats dragging fawns - presumably to their cubs (one near Strawberry Res, one southwest of Goshen).
And, at least half a dozen times, I've crossed fresh tracks while following something else (Deer/Elk), only to see the cat slither out of a hiding place when I got 75-100 feet away (and head away from me).

Like you, I'm prepared - but I see Moose as a bigger threat. The silent killer that wants to smash your skull because you snapped the wrong twig...


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