# Dog Issue *PLEASE HELP*



## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

Okay, I've got a bit of a conflict inside about what I should do in regard to a troublesome dog in the neighborhood. This is probably the best place I have to get some feedback since there are so many dog owners on this board.

My wife is all over me lately to do something about a dog that lives on a corner, which has freaked my wife and kids out to the point of tears. The home is along the route in which my family uses to get my boy to and from school (and the house is about a block from the school).

This dog appears to be a pit-bull/boxer mix, having the size of a boxer. It lives in a fenced yard, although the fence is only 4 feet high. The dog could easily jump over this fence and that's my biggest fear.

Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm not a dog hater. I hope to have one someday when I have an appropriate place to keep one.

So the problem is that this dog has, on multiple occasions, charged my family as they pass by, snarling, barking, and subsequently terrifying them. My son, out of reaction, actually ran out into the road to escape what he perceived was an imminent attack.

Now I'm all for the personal liberty of pet ownership and I tried to reassure my wife that the people living at the residence are in compliance with the law by keeping the dog behind a fence.

Though I recognize someone's right to keep a dog, I also recognize my family's right to walk down the sidewalk without fear of being attacked by a dangerous animal.
Furthermore, I added that local ordinances keep people from building a fence higher than 4ft in their front yards.

She's still terrified though and is pushing me to take action. I've done some research to see if I even have a leg to stand on, legally. Apparently I do and I've copied relevant sections of code below:



> 5-1-8. Vicious animals.
> A. It shall be unlawful for any person to have any
> animal determined to be vicious within the City except
> for guard dogs.
> ...


So I can see a legal route to take action, however, this is also where I find myself morally conflicted. Just because the letter of the law states that I can file a complaint, I still don't want to be "that guy" who runs crying to the law about minor stuff.

To me, this isn't a big deal, but easily could be. The dog itself is a pretty scary animal. It's certainly big enough to jump over the fence and if it did, my family (3yr old girl, 6yr old boy, 4'7" wife) wouldn't stand a chance at fighting it off.

The last time this dog did charge them, there was actually a group of people at the residence, outside. When my wife screamed, she looked at the people in hopes that they'd do something, but all she got was a girl laughing.

Well that sealed the deal for my wife and now she's bugging me like crazy to "do something" about it.

So what do you guys think? I really don't want to make a mountain of a mole hill, but I don't want to wait until the dog actually jumps the fence either. Should I confront the dog owner (of course I'd speak with them before filing any complaints or what have you)?

Should I just tell my wife to relax?

Thank you for any feedback. I'd love to hear what people think about this.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I'd call animal control for the city that you live in and ask them. They may even stop and talk to the dogs owners about the problem even without you filing a complaint. 

Until then is it possible for your wife and kids to walk down the other side of the street?


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Have you talked to the owners about the problem? That is where I would start and if they were unwilling to be understanding or make some changes I wouldn't feel bad about filing a complaint as it is the safety of your family you are talking about.

I might get some bad reviews for saying this as well, but maybe she needs to go through the concealed weapons course and carry in case something does happen so that she feels like she can defend herself and your kids.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Arm you wife with a spray bottle of water. When the dog runs up have her stand her ground and give it a shot to the face, no hollering and carrying on, just give it a shot. If straight water doesn’t work add some vinegar (or a very small amount of ammonia). The dog is probably just entertaining itself; it will soon learn she is no fun.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

JuddCT said:


> Have you talked to the owners about the problem? That is where I would start and if they were unwilling to be understanding or make some changes I wouldn't feel bad about filing a complaint as it is the safety of your family you are talking about.


+1

It seems to me that as far as the law is concerned, they could use the guard dog as a loophole to get out of their pet being classified as a vicious animal. But, that dog certainly fits under items 4 and 5 of nuisance animal and falls under the letter of the law "chase, or worry any person" for attacking your family.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

Cooky said:


> Arm you wife with a spray bottle of water. When the dog runs up have her stand her ground and give it a shot to the face, no hollering and carrying on, just give it a shot. If straight water doesn't work add some vinegar (or a very small amount of ammonia). The dog is probably just entertaining itself; it will soon learn she is no fun.


+1 If it's not deterred by a small amount of ammonia, give it a stronger dose. I was asked by a friend whose daughter was having an issue with a dog that would charge her as she was jogging. I recommended a good shot of ammonia in a spray bottle. It was one and done. One spray, one dog running for home. This dog wasn't behind a fence. I wouldn't get very strong with the ammonia on the first shot, but I wouldn't start with pure water either. First time mist, second time stream. If the dog's owner says anything, ask him if there is a law against walking down the street with a bottle of Windex with ammonia D?


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Talk with the owners first. Give them a chance to help come up with a solution.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

+4 on talking first in a calm manner, then I like the ammonia idea. Seems like many people who have this type of dog won't respond positively as the dig is likely an extension of their trashy ways.


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## highcountryfever (Aug 24, 2009)

Maybe it's just me, but from the sounds of it I don't think talking to the owner is going to get you anywhere. If the only reaction to your wife screaming was laughter, why would their reaction be any different when you raise a valid concern for the safety of your family? 

If there was not that reaction, my approach would be right in line with what everyone else has said, Try to talk to them about it.

But, if it were me, and I knew they had previously acted in the manner you described, I would make an anonymous tip and let the public servants (animal control, police) deal with it. Then the owners of the dog know there is a concern and you are not labeled as "that guy" and you can also please your wife. (which is probably more important that being known as "that guy" in the neighbor hood) 

Very hard situation for sure.


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## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

Thanks for the replies so far. Looking at the code, it seems like every dog is in violation of something or another. I'm not trying to be a paper pusher though.

My research was only to prepare myself for the talk I plan to have with the dog's owner.

Here's something crazy (bold):



> 5-3-7. Dogs attacking persons and animals.
> A. It shall be unlawful for any dog to attack,
> chase, or worry any person, any domestic animal
> having a commercial value, or any species of hoofed
> ...


Wow, so I can kill a dog for "worrying" me? That's a little extreme, I think.

I don't want to do that, of course. Really, I just want the dog owner to realize that he's on a busy corner where hundreds of kids might walk by every day and to keep the dog in a way that limits the potential for a serious attack.

Here's a link to the city code, for anyone who wants to look at it:

http://exe.orem.org/citycode/Chap_05.pdf

I am liking the idea of the squirt bottle though. Might not even have to talk to the guy if that works. If not, maybe pepper spray would be more adequate. :twisted:

Okay, that was a joke.


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## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

highcountryfever said:


> Maybe it's just me, but from the sounds of it I don't think talking to the owner is going to get you anywhere. If the only reaction to your wife screaming was laughter, why would their reaction be any different when you raise a valid concern for the safety of your family?


I thought the same thing and the real trick is to catch the guy outside while I'm in the area. I know I'm not about to enter the property (fence, dog) without an invite.


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## stimmie78 (Dec 8, 2007)

From reading your posting on ordinances the dog is considered an nuisance. Call animal control and see what happens. Hopefully you have animal control officers that will actually follow the ordinances. You may be doing others a favor by being the one to call. Dog attacks are no fun... just ask my wife. She's been basically laid up since the end of February.. So far the bill from the hospital is $12k.. More may have to come later.. The owners of the dog that got my wife just think it's no big deal and that their dog isn't a vicious dog. It was a pit bull/bull dog mix.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Legal definition of canine worrying: "To seize with the teeth and shake or tug at repeatedly: as in a dog worrying a bone."

By legal definition, a canine worrying someone is not the same as you feeling nervous. It actually involves the dog physically attacking. At that point it is legal to shoot the dog.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I would talk to the people and ask them to get a dog run for their dog. Then I would go with the ammonia in a bottle. Dogs learn. Right now this dog thinks it's the boss of the property. It has to learn to be submissive to people who are outside the fence.

On another note- Any dog that doesn't aggressively bark at what it feels are intruders is not worth its salt in my book. A dog should defend the fort. The fort and its dog should also be enclosed by a high fence and it's only idiots that want to be robbed that ask for an ordinance that stipulates short fences.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

stimmie78 said:


> From reading your posting on ordinances the dog is considered an nuisance. Call animal control and see what happens. Hopefully you have animal control officers that will actually follow the ordinances. You may be doing others a favor by being the one to call. Dog attacks are no fun... just ask my wife. She's been basically laid up since the end of February.. So far the bill from the hospital is $12k.. More may have to come later.. The owners of the dog that got my wife just think it's no big deal and that their dog isn't a vicious dog. It was a pit bull/bull dog mix.


Is the dog still alive?!? If so, why?


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## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

> Until then is it possible for your wife and kids to walk down the other side of the street?


Yes, it's possible. Should she feel as if she needs to go out of her way because of this dog? I think not, but I see what you're saying.

stimmie78 -

Man, I really feel bad about your situation. I hope that dog is in its proper place (the ground). The owners could probably do with a few less teeth, themselves. Best wishes for your wife's recovery.



BirdDogger said:


> Legal definition of canine worrying: "To seize with the teeth and shake or tug at repeatedly: as in a dog worrying a bone."


But in Orem's City Code, it describes worrying:



> Worry as used in this section shall mean to harass by excessive
> barking, growling, tearing, biting, or shaking with the
> teeth.


I'm not trying to argue though. I appreciate your factoid and definitely wouldn't kill anything just because it made me nervous.

Thanks to all for the suggestions. Sonia has read them and is excited to try the squirt bottle trick. I hope it works.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Ordinance aside, LOAH, every dog barks. Every single dog on planet Earth _should_ bark. That is how they were created. Let's talk real aggressive dog behavior. Barking ain't it. People fear the bark because it's loud. That's just ignorance. Barking at strangers on the property is a good thing, much better than a motion sensor on a light.

Orem's ordinance (other than barking) is fairly correct as far as defining aggressive behavior. You wrote that the dog is "snarling". As in growling before and after the bark? That's bad. Growling is aggression. Growling means "I will rip your throat out" in dog language, whereas simple barking means "I know you are here! Get lost!"

Just the bark = good. Growling while barking = bad.

Baring teeth while growling, whether barking or not = _very_, _very_ bad. This dog is willing to go the distance.

Obviously the rest of Orem's ordinance is on par with aggressive dog behavior because the dog that uses its mouth to tear, bite, or shake is assaulting someone in its way.


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

I would like to suggest this a squirt bottle needs you and your wife to get up close and land the blast. If she's afraid will she be able to apply the blast and what are you going to carry a basic squirt, squirt spray bottle filled with water and whatever substance? Or something of size that sprays like a weed killer bottle pumped for a full stream blast. Remember she's afraid you won't be around as she walks the children. So here's my recommendations:

Talk with the neighbor
Call Animal Control

Finally, animals will respond to a large unfamilar sound...get a small air horn can like what is carried in boats. She doesn't have to aim it but just push a button. I'm here to tell you that sound makes me go WTH and thanks to my Son our Lab goes WTF and run away also....grrrr. 

Remember you aren't there so will she be able to use a spray bottle squirt, squirt to land a blast or a huge weed killer bottle pumped and set to full stream and she still has to hit the target. If it were me, I'd use a loud noise and a small air horn would be my recommendation. Including maybe the air horn will get your neighbors attention if he just laughs and thinks its funny. 

I'd practice with the air horn can so she knows how loud it is to include use it with your children...so my .02 as a dog owner and my Lab hates the air horn...my son proved that...grrrrrrr, grrrr, grrr.


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## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

BirdDogger, I agree with you. A good dog should be wary of unfamiliar people and should bark at strangers. That's why I didn't take my wife too seriously until I went and saw the dog, vs the fence, plus her account of what the dog was doing. 

She states that the dog was growling before the bark. I think I need to take a walk tomorrow, just to see if the dog acts the same toward me.

She says that today, it came out of its dog house and started barking as soon as it saw her, which was before she'd even crossed the road to come near the property.

I think it's got a special liking for her.


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

I recently read a book called "The secrets of the FBI" In the book they talk about a group of Agents that secretly break into homes, businesses that sort of thing to plant bugs and listening equipment, all with legal warrant of course. Anyways the point I am getting at is they have to get in and out of the house without any of sign of them ever being there. That includes dealing with aggressive dogs without harming them, in the book they describe how to deal with aggressive dogs without harming them or any side effects. They use a fire extinguisher, when the dog becomes aggressive or is being aggressive, they shoot the fire extinguisher at the dog and from what they said the dog usually runs off.


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## Dannyboy (Oct 27, 2010)

Playing Devil Advocate here but remember that there is also animal cruelty laws that you may have to worry about with some of the ideas people are throwing out. I have a German Shepard that likes to bark at people. Most people don't notice the tail wagging like crazy as he barks. Ive seen people do some pretty stupid things in front of my house. Including a grown man pulled over in a truck to stop and flip off my dog. Also walked out my door to see someone mooning my dog. Now i'm rambling..... Anyways I would talk to the neighbors and then if they are not willing to help the situation in some way then do what ya gotta do. But i know if i caught someone doing something i did not approve of to my dog i would be pissed, i know from experience. Good luck, that's a tough situation.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Threats should always be taken seriously, regardless of whether it is from a person or an animal. Sure, the dog is guarding his turf, but what happens when he gets so worked up that he comes off his turf, and mauls someone? A "petty" complaint is worth it IMO, if it helps save a life or someone from getting hurt. No dog is more important than the lives of an innocent mother and her children. 

If the neighbor just laughed at the previous situation, I wouldn't even bother talking to them. It is clear that the people have the same attitude as the dog has. If you really don't wanna be the guy who complains, I would definitely get your wife some pepper spray, with a heavy dose of instruction to only use it if the dog comes over the fence. But I will tell you this- if the dog has any pit bull in him, pepper spray won't do much good if he has already locked his jaws on flesh. For this reason, I suggest filing a complaint, or at least making a phone call to the police or animal control. Make an effort to prevent a situation from even happening. 

I have two dogs myself. Both of them labs, and I am convinced that they would sooner lick an intruder to death than attack. Hopefully we never have to find out what would happen. After the initial barking at the presence of someone knocking at our door, I expect them to calm down and quit barking. I require them to follow my lead. From what it sounds like, these people let the dog rule the roost, at least in the yard. The point I am trying to make? If these people had an acceptable attitude about how their dog reacts to others, they would at least attempt to calm the thing down when people walk by. Sounds like they would rather encourage it to be aggressive. If this is the case, I can't see them being receptive to a talk.


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## stimmie78 (Dec 8, 2007)

Fishrmn said:


> Is the dog still alive?!? If so, why?


Yes, as of now it is... They had it in quarantine for the 10 days for rabies testing... it was an unlicensed dog with no shots.. Now it's being held because the police found out they aren't the ones to file the petition to have the court order to put the dog down since the owners won't agree to put it down. It's in the city attorney's hands now..


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

stimmie78 said:


> Fishrmn said:
> 
> 
> > Is the dog still alive?!? If so, why?
> ...


And what did the city attorney say when you called him today at 8 am? Then at 10 am? 12 pm? 2 pm? 4 pm? What time goes he clock out? Get on it and do not allow this to happen. I would get the media going if I were you. Mr. Gephardt junior may be interested. I had a similar experience as high school football official punched in the back of the head by the dad of the player who lost the game after committing OPI in the end zone...I didn't really make a big deal out of it, but I certainly should have! Guess in which city this happened?


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## LOAH (Sep 29, 2007)

OPI??

Wellington?


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

When in doubt contact the 'dog whisperer' Ceasar Millian.

http://www.cesarsway.com/tips/problembe ... aggression

http://www.cesarsway.com/channel/dog-be ... aggression


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Personally, at this point in time because of the contempt shown by the dog owners family, I would not contact them. Before you use the spray bottle or what ever, I would first review with animal control the situation. This is not a new problem and I suspect they will have an answer right off the bat. Do it in person and not on the phone. I know in West Jordan, what you have described, is a violation of city ordinance. I think starting out with the spray bottle could open the situation to another level that might not be safe. I think option 2, after Animal Control, would be "K2"s air horn. Basically it is non-invasive to the dog owners property.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

LOAH said:


> OPI??
> 
> Wellington?


offensive pass interference, the worst penalty there is.

Great city of Orem.....i guess I was thinking of stimmie's experience more than yours.


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

LOAH as I tip-toed through cyber space researching there are numerous links that talk about using air horns for aggressive dogs by walkers, bike riders, etc. 

I do agree with Huntoholic using any type of device to spray a liquid on a dog that is behind a fence in an owners yard and not attacking (yet anyways) could create another situation that will probably not be pleasant.

Way back in the day I trained dogs and showed my dog in obedience training competions and that was one of the recommendations we received in training was the use of air horns for barking, aggressive dogs etc. 

So FWIW hope it all works out for you and Sonia and especially the kiddos on whatever course of action you decide to take.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

While I was working for a utility company we had a electronic dog repealer such as this one.

http://www.amazon.com/DAZER-II-Ultr...KVQ2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332971086&sr=8-1

It did work but on the instructions for it it did say that it may not work on overly aggressive dogs. But I did us one to put down a rottwheiler that was barking up a storm on a deck just above where I was working.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Don't bother w the owner. If they were entertained as the dog terrorized your family you won't get anywhere. Make a call to animal control and if that doesn't do the trick keep calling as long as the dog is an issue. Your family shouldn't have to walk in fear or on the opposite side of the road.


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## k2muskie (Oct 6, 2007)

Just curious has the dog issue gotten any better for your wife and children?


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

So my concern here is that if LOAH decides to speak to the dog owner first, and then the owner doesnt do anything, he will likely have to call animal control or the police if he feels that there is a genuine safety concern. Then the dog owner gets a citation or order to remove the dog from the property. Then the owner gets pissed and knocks on his door and causes problems for his family and then causes problems in the neighborhood.

If you feel so inclined, you could send the owner an anonymous letter explaining your fears. And then if they dont do anything about it, you can call animal control and let them deal with it. This way you dont open yourself up to potential confrontation when and if the law needs to become involved.

Most police departments are pretty helpful when it comes to problems like this and I would encourage you to reach out to them to see if they can propose a solution because I am sure this isnt an isolated instance.


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