# Crimping rifle bullets



## wyogoob

I'm crimping rifle bullets with reckless abandon this winter. Why you ask? So I can compare the differences in bullet performance between crimping and not crimping and attain a little first hand knowledge on the subject instead of the "Crimping rifle bullets is stupid although I've never ever done it before" syndrome. 

So lets talk the pros and cons of crimping rifle bullets.


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## Critter

You left out "All of the above"


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## wyogoob

I hope this doesn't go like the iron sight thread I posted a while back. Geeze, 1,024 UWN members PM'd me and told me they secretly used iron sights but would never admit it on the UWN, longrangesomethingorother.com, or that other forum where ya gotta shoot big deers to be a member.

.


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## DallanC

I put a very mild crimp in ar15 rounds as well as all my pistol rounds. In the case of the pistol it helps remove that bell'ing of the case mouth created prior to loading.

-DallanC


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## wyogoob

I always crimp my M1 carbine bullets.

.


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## wyogoob

*It's Too Late*



Critter said:


> You left out "All of the above"


Too late. I can't change it, even the spelling error.

.


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## wyogoob

DallanC said:


> I put a very mild crimp in ar15 rounds as well as all my pistol rounds. In the case of the pistol it helps remove that bell'ing of the case mouth created prior to loading.
> 
> -DallanC


We should do a separate thread for handgun bullet crimping.

Hey, this reminds me though that I crimp all my 45/70 bullets.

.


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## Critter

I wished that I had a 45-70 so that I could crimp the loaded rounds.

Hey, Christmas is just 6 days away, perhaps I need to go sit on Santa's lap.


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## DallanC

One of these days Santa is going to bring me a "red pad" Ruger #1 in 45-70. 


-DallanC


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## wyogoob

I crimped 100 250 Savages the other day. (Uh...geeze goob, is it 100 or 250 savages?)

100 each - .250-3000 Savage bullets crimped. I'm not making this up. I have like 500 100 grain .25 caliber Core-Lokts. I can't beat the accuracy, and speed, of a factory Remington yellow box 250 Savage bullet and they're crimped. Same crimp as my Lee factory collet crimper. So I'm trying to duplicate those bullets and compare crimped to not crimped.

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## wyogoob

Come to think of it a lot of factory bullets are crimped. What's up with that?

Most of the military rifle bullets I've seen are crimped. Are they crazy?.


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## reb8600

I only crimp pistol rounds. Have never had a need to put a crimp on a rifle round, not even any of my AR's.


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## Critter

What I understand on the military stuff is that they do that to keep the bullets from jumping out of the case under full auto fire, that along with putting some kind of cement/glue on the bullet to hold it in place. I have pulled some military rounds apart and when I first started doing it I ruined more bullets and cases than I saved. Then I found out if you push the bullet into the case about 1/8" that it would break it free which makes it easier to pull them.


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## wyogoob

I noticed that the high-dollar factory Nosler Trophy Grade 7mm-08 ammo with 140 gr Accubonds are cannelured and crimped.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...7mm-08-remington-140-grain-accubond-box-of-20

Odd, my Accubonds bullets for reloading don't have cannelures. Why would Nosler spend the time and money to cannelure and crimp an Accubond bullet?

.


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## wyogoob

Just looked at a few factory bullets in the basement:
> All the Rem Core-Lokts and Winchester Power Points have factory crimps. (Good grief, I'll never live long enough to shoot all of them) 
> Remington big magnum Premium A-Frames are crimped, roll crimped as a matter of fact.
> Barnes Vor-Tx 300 Win Mag copper bullets are crimped.
> My assorted factory Federals are crimped.


Screw it, I'm tired of typing. The only factory rifle bullets I have that aren't crimped are Hornady V-max Molys and Remington 30-06 Accelerators.

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## wyogoob

I've always crimped cast rifle bullets. Don't know why other than most of that ammo went into relic firearms with tubular magazines.

The copper jacket on a bullet is easy to push around and the lead underneath is very forgiving. I've pulled some of my crimped jacketed bullets and found some are over crimped, especially roll crimps with a RCBS die. I'm going to pull some crimped factory bullets and see if they're distorted any.


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## reb8600

Critter said:


> that along with putting some kind of cement/glue on the bullet to hold it in place.


I believe what you are referring to is the sealer they use, not glue. They put it on the primer also. They use it to prevent any moisture from getting in the case.


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## Kevin D

I learned trying to crimp the bullet in a cartridge with rounded shoulders like the Weatherby magnums can be a tricky deal until the dies get adjusted just right. In fact, I may have stumbled on to a new wildcat cartridge, I call it the .300 Weatherby short mag! I think I even have a few prototypes still kicking around!!


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## wyogoob

*Most of my factory ammo is crimped*



wyogoob said:


> Just looked at a few factory bullets in the basement:
> > All the Rem Core-Lokts and Winchester Power Points have factory crimps. (Good grief, I'll never live long enough to shoot all of them)
> > Remington big magnum Premium A-Frames are crimped, rolled crimped as a matter of fact.
> > Barnes Vor-Tx 300 Win Mag copper bullets are crimped.
> > My assorted factory Federals are crimped.
> 
> Screw it, I'm tired of typing. The only factory rifle bullets I have that aren't crimped are Hornady V-max Molys and Remington 30-06 Accelerators.
> 
> .


Factory Charles Newton (circa 1917 or so) ammo has a heavy crimp. 
Factory Winchester ammo for the 256 Newton is crimped.
Factory 257 Weatherby 85 gr ammo has a light roll crimp.

Factory Combined Technology bullets are not crimped.

The price tag on the box of Rem 30-06 Accelerators says "$6.99" and I found some 25-35 ammo I've been looking for for years. :grin:

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## Springville Shooter

Pistol cartridges-yes
Straight-wall rifle cartridges-yes
Tubular Mag-yes

Using the factory and military loads as an argument for crimping is akin to using the same as a justification that seating depth is of no consequence. Call me arrogant but I don't like to use generic, mass produced loads as any kind of standard for my hand loads. I'm still under the delusion that I can do better. 

The same arguments can be made for anything that we weirdo hand loaders do.....specialty sizing, flash hole uniforming, precision trimming, customized bullet seating, run-out mitigation, meplat turning, specific component differentiation,......really necessary when Remington Green Box ammo shoots MOA out of my Savage?----SS


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## LostLouisianian

DallanC said:


> One of these days Santa is going to bring me a "red pad" Ruger #1 in 45-70.
> 
> -DallanC


Santa is dead, I shot him last year for not bringing me a blankety blank thing.


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## wyogoob

Kevin D said:


> I learned trying to crimp the bullet in a cartridge with rounded shoulders like the Weatherby magnums can be a tricky deal until the dies get adjusted just right. In fact, I may have stumbled on to a new wildcat cartridge, I call it the .300 Weatherby short mag! I think I even have a few prototypes still kicking around!!


Yeah.

I'm roll crimping Weatherbys if the bullet has a cannelure. I've noticed that the OAL in many of the published recipes puts the bullet cannelure on the end of the case facilitating a crimp and the big bullet jump.

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## wyogoob

*All of the Above Option in Poll.*



Critter said:


> You left out "All of the above"


Yer in!

Hey, I Googled "crimp" and got 19 trillion hits. Read them all. Cut my wrists.

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## wyogoob

So by all accounts on the internet, Long Range and Match shooters don't crimp.

I wouldn't know. Those guys won't let me play with them. Something about iron sights.

Hey, does anyone here know why all the major ammo manufacturers crimp their bullets?

.


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## Critter

wyogoob said:


> Hey, does anyone here know why all the major ammo manufacturers crimp their bullets?
> 
> .


You made me go look at the few factory rounds that I have and you are right there is a slight crimp.

All I can figure is that is the way that their dies are set up? -O,-

I actually think that they are done this way as a extra step in keeping the bullet in place under recoil. You know the problems with product liability now days.


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## wyogoob

*ammo makers crimp da bullets*



Critter said:


> You made me go look at the few factory rounds that I have and you are right there is a slight crimp.
> 
> All I can figure is that is the way that their dies are set up? -O,-
> 
> I actually think that they are done this way as a extra step in keeping the bullet in place under recoil. You know the problems with product liability now days.


I'm going to find out. I'll Googled it.

Ah, ha, ha, ha, hoe, hoe, hee, hee -BaHa!-

Just kiddin. I'll just ask them.

.


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## wyogoob

Critter said:


> You made me go look at the few factory rounds that I have and you are right there is a slight crimp.
> 
> All I can figure is that is the way that their dies are set up? -O,-
> 
> I actually think that they are done this way as a extra step in keeping the bullet in place under recoil. You know the problems with product liability now days.


Do you have any factory Weatherbys to look at? I had one. The cannelure looks weird, like a narrow cut, not serrated. Hard to tell for sure without tearing the bullet apart.

.


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## Critter

I have 3 different factory Weatherby rounds for my .340

200 and 250 grain Hornady factory rounds have the serration where the slight crimp is. 

225 grain Barnes X bullet also has the crimp at the channelure.


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## wyogoob

Critter said:


> I have 3 different factory Weatherby rounds for my .340
> 
> 200 and 250 grain Hornady factory rounds have the serration where the slight crimp is.
> 
> 225 grain Barnes X bullet also has the crimp at the channelure.


Thanks. I think mine's like your 200 and 250 grain rounds. The crimp is on the very top of the groove or serration (if it is serrated.) Looks like a slight roll crimp on mine.

The factory crimp on my Barnes TSX ammo is a factory collet-type of crimp like Lee and Hornady has.

.


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## Bax*

reb8600 said:


> I only crimp pistol rounds. Have never had a need to put a crimp on a rifle round, not even any of my AR's.


 I always thought I'd better crimp for my AR, and one day I forgot to crimp. The dang thing shot just fine. So I guess that answers that.

For tube fed rifles, I think crimps are essential. First reloads I ever made for my ol 30-30 weren't crimped. I pushed the bullets right into the casing as I tried to load the rifle. Then I had to shoot my leaver gun like a single-shot. What a pain!


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## Karl

wyogoob said:


> I'm crimping rifle bullets with reckless abandon this winter. Why you ask? So I can compare the differences in bullet performance between crimping and not crimping and attain a little first hand knowledge on the subject instead of the "Crimping rifle bullets is stupid although I've never ever done it before" syndrome.
> 
> So lets talk the pros and cons of crimping rifle bullets.


My momma taught me to do everything right the first time or not at all.

The reward for doing it wrong is the same as not doing it at all -- punishment.

This was particularly true when cleaning my room.

She did not care about the car as much -- to her the car was a magic carpet and as long as it ran she was good with it.

I believe that if you go to all the trouble of reloading/loading your own cartridges and you don't crimp your bullets, whether rifle or handgun, then you are just wasting your time doing it only half right.

I have noticed that crimped bullets do not suffer damage during transport, whether they are in a bullet pouch or in your pocket or in your gun.

I have heard folklore that crimped bullets develop higher muzzle pressures. This can be tested with a chronograph but since I have never NOT crimped my bullets I do not know if uncrimped bullets have lower muzzle velocities.

Keep up the good work Goob crimping those bullets.

Don't let anybody talk you out of it.


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## Karl

wyogoob said:


> I'm crimping rifle bullets with reckless abandon this winter. Why you ask? So I can compare the differences in bullet performance between crimping and not crimping and attain a little first hand knowledge on the subject instead of the "Crimping rifle bullets is stupid although I've never ever done it before" syndrome.
> 
> So lets talk the pros and cons of crimping rifle bullets.


By the way your poll needs one more choice:

"I crimp all bullets".


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## Karl

wyogoob said:


> Too late. I can't change it, even the spelling error.
> 
> .


I did not see any spelling errors.

Maybe my eyes are just getting bad though.

Since I taught technical writing in grad school, spelling errors normally jump out at me.


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## Karl

Critter said:


> I wished that I had a 45-70 so that I could crimp the loaded rounds.
> 
> Hey, Christmas is just 6 days away, perhaps I need to go sit on Santa's lap.


45-70 is a buffalo gun from the Old West that had the added advantage that they made a revolver for it too, so your ammo could work in both your rifle and your handgun.

It is still the very best dual rifle/handgun round. It was/is an early magnum.

Someday when someone designs a 500 S&W for a rifle then there will be another one too.

So if you get a toy like this one for Xmas then make sure you get them both -- the rifle and the revolver!

Good luck with that.


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## wyogoob

Karl said:


> I did not see any spelling errors.
> 
> Maybe my eyes are just getting bad though.
> 
> Since I taught technical writing in grad school, spelling errors normally jump out at me.


I fixed the spelling error.

Technical writing huh? I do technical writing; asset inspection reports on turnarounds, failures, commissioning. I'm not very good a it; put semicolons everywhere. 

.


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## Karl

wyogoob said:


> I fixed the spelling error.
> 
> Technical writing huh? I do technical writing; asset inspection reports on turnarounds, failures, commissioning. I'm not very good a it; put semicolons everywhere.
> 
> .


The history of writing and its evolution through the ages -- with languages, minuscule's, capitalization, and punctuation as a result -- is fascinating and helps everyone in trying to understand it all.

Bottom line, it merely consists of common conventions, which are actually a form of argumentum populum fallacy.

Spelling is not even cut and dried, not even in English, because spelling varies between the USA, Canada, UK, and Australia.

Same is true in Europe, Asia, Africa, and Latin America.

Sargon of Akkad is one of the earliest writers we know of from 2400 BC which is 1000 years older than Moses at 1400 BCE. He mostly talked about himself and his many conquests throughout Mesopotamia. He sounds like a little kid bragging.

Moses we have available to us if you can read Hebrew.

in Hebrew all of Moses' sentences are long run-on's that go about a paragraph in length the clauses of which are connected with "and" ... "and" ... "and" ... etc.

So Moses writes like a little kid telling a story.

There was no such thing as minuscule (lower case) until about 1500 A.D. and it was chiefly invented to speed up the transcription of the Greek New Testament in Greek by scribes. Before this all writhing in all languages was all-cap's.

Anyway, the treatment of punctuation is completely different in English, German, and Greek today as well.

If your spelling is close that is good enough. I prefer British spelling to American however.

These days the spell checkers will catch most of your mistakes with red underlining. But I have to wonder if in the UK they laugh at that when the software gives preference to American conventions instead.

I only use semi-colons when I make lists. Never in writing prose.

Not to worry.


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## Critter

Karl said:


> 45-70 is a buffalo gun from the Old West that had the added advantage that they made a revolver for it too, so your ammo could work in both your rifle and your handgun.
> 
> It is still the very best dual rifle/handgun round. It was/is an early magnum.
> 
> Someday when someone designs a 500 S&W for a rifle then there will be another one too.
> 
> So if you get a toy like this one for Xmas then make sure you get them both -- the rifle and the revolver!
> 
> Good luck with that.


The 45-70 was built for the US Government intended to be used in the 1873 Springfield or Trapdoor Springfield which were issued to the US Army. Winchester then came out with the model 1886 lever action rifle that also chambered this round, it was never available in a revolver until the 1970's when a crazy person chambered a Ruger Super Blackhawk in one.

Perhaps you were thinking about the .44-40 which was available in both the Winchester 1873 and the Colt Peacemaker. Which is hardly a buffalo gun but I am sure that quite a few fell to that loading.


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## wyogoob

*I should stay in the Recipes Section*



Karl said:


> ........................................
> 
> I believe that if you go to all the trouble of reloading/loading your own cartridges and you don't crimp your bullets, whether rifle or handgun, then you are just wasting your time doing it only half right. I don't crimp all my bullets.
> 
> I have noticed that crimped bullets do not suffer damage during transport, whether they are in a bullet pouch or in your pocket or in your gun. Yeah, like I said I do relic firearms and may have some "relic" brass that has poor neck tension.
> 
> I have heard folklore that crimped bullets develop higher muzzle pressures. This can be tested with a chronograph but since I have never NOT crimped my bullets I do not know if uncrimped bullets have lower muzzle velocities. You can get on the web and find literally thousands of examples of crimp vs no crimp chrono and accuracy comparisons. It's pretty much a toss-up which side people are on. People have strong feelings about their firearms and a lot of the discussion is like two bald men fighting over a comb.
> 
> Keep up the good work Goob crimping those bullets. Thanks. I tend to over-crimp rifle loads - habits carried over from shooting magnum handguns.
> 
> Don't let anybody talk you out of it. I'm not taking sides really, just experimenting a the moment, learning, listening, questioning.


see red


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## Loke

So Karl, enlighten me on the subject of 45/70 revolvers from the old west. I know of many 45 Colt offerings, and some 45 Schofields. But the only 45/70 revolver that I'm familiar with is the BFR, introduced in 1979 by Magnum Research.


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## wyogoob

*Beam me up Scotty*



Karl said:


> The history of writing and its evolution through the ages -- with languages, minuscule's, capitalization, and punctuation as a result -- is fascinating and helps everyone in trying to understand it all.  I thought we were crimping bullets?
> 
> Bottom line, it merely consists of common conventions, which are actually a form of argumentum populum fallacy. Yeah buddy, I don't have a clue what you're talking about and I went to graduate school....uh..well...6 years of high school.
> 
> Spelling is not even cut and dried, not even in English, because spelling varies between the USA, Canada, UK, and Australia. We don't do spelling and those little vent windows on vehicles anymore.
> 
> Same is true in Europe, Asia, Africa, and Latin America. check
> 
> Sargon of Akkad is one of the earliest writers we know of from 2400 BC which is 1000 years older than Moses at 1400 BCE. He mostly talked about himself and his many conquests throughout Mesopotamia. He sounds like a little kid bragging. I hate Messopotamia, hard to spell and that's where phragamites come from. "Phragmites" is also hard to spell too.
> 
> Moses we have available to us if you can read Hebrew. double check
> 
> in Hebrew all of Moses' sentences are long run-on's that go about a paragraph in length the clauses of which are connected with "and" ... "and" ... "and" ... etc. Have you ever done a paragraph?
> 
> So Moses writes like a little kid telling a story. I love Moses. Charlton Heston used factory ammo, all crimped.
> 
> There was no such thing as minuscule (lower case) until about 1500 A.D. and it was chiefly invented to speed up the transcription of the Greek New Testament in Greek by scribes. Before this all writhing in all languages was all-cap's. Really? I thought that all-caps thingie was something the Right-wingers invented on Facebook, 2008.
> 
> Anyway, the treatment of punctuation is completely different in English, German, and Greek today as well. I like the way Britons do it.
> 
> If your spelling is close that is good enough. I prefer British spelling to American however. My spelling's OK but my keyboard doesn't have a "k" key on it.
> 
> These days the spell checkers will catch most of your mistakes with red underlining. But I have to wonder if in the UK they laugh at that when the software gives preference to American conventions instead. I love red.
> 
> I only use semi-colons when I make lists. Never in writing prose. Moderator* GaryFish* told me the same thing. He's a technical writer too. Been to college a lot.
> 
> Not to worry. Yeah, my writing skills are terrible but they're are as good as the clients Engineers and Managers writing skills.


see red


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## wyogoob

Loke said:


> So Karl, enlighten me on the subject of 45/70 revolvers from the old west. I know of many 45 Colt offerings, and some 45 Schofields. But the only 45/70 revolver that I'm familiar with is the BFR, introduced in 1979 by Magnum Research.


Thompson Contender has a 45/70 single-shot handgun.

Nevermind, I just wanted to get to the top of the next page.

.


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## wyogoob

Are we crimping bullets or arguing over 7mm-08 and 6.5 CM? 

I'm on my cell phone so I can't tell, and frankly, don't care.

.


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## Cooky

I've always crimped everything except "accuracy" loads. Probably 'cause somebody told me crimped loads aren't as accurate. I always figgered crimping was to keep the bullet where you put it until the explosion. You could always wander off into a debate about neck tension, whatever that is.


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## Bax*

I want a 45-110. 

Btw- I love the way these antiquated cartridges were named. So much clearer to understand what the cartridge characteristics were. 45gr bullet, check. 110gr powder, check. Ok, now I go shoot Mr Marston.


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## Critter

Don't forget that they also used the grain of bullet, so it could of been a 45-110-500


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## Karl

Bax* said:


> I want a 45-110.
> 
> Btw- I love the way these antiquated cartridges were named. So much clearer to understand what the cartridge characteristics were. 45gr bullet, check. 110gr powder, check. Ok, now I go shoot Mr Marston.


I have no problem understanding 300 RUM -- 30 caliber Remington ultra magnum.


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## Karl

wyogoob said:


> Are we crimping bullets or arguing over 7mm-08 and 6.5 CM?
> 
> I'm on my cell phone so I can't tell, and frankly, don't care.
> 
> .


Crimping -- I crimp everything. Not doing so is uncivilized.

7-08 everyone knows my opinion. This is a kid's caliber. Or a woman's. There is no honor in it.

6.5 is the ultimate anti personnel round as the Japanese proved in WW2. But I would only use it on American antelope not on anything else wild.


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## Bax*

Karl said:


> 7-08 everyone knows my opinion. This is a kid's caliber. Or a woman's. There is no honor in it.


opcorn:

Thems fightin words


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## Karl

Bax* said:


> opcorn:
> 
> Thems fightin words


Sorry Boss.

Which would you prefer?

That I lie to you with flattery?

Or that I tell you the truth?


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## Bax*

Karl said:


> Sorry Boss.
> 
> Which would you prefer?
> 
> That I lie to you with flattery?
> 
> Or that I tell you the truth?


I'm just waiting for one very lucky Cooper owner to chime in :mrgreen:


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## DallanC

You guys and your spelling, lets settle this right now. On the count of 3, Spell "kemmerrrerrerrr" correctly:

1...

2...

3...


-DallanC


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## DallanC

Karl said:


> 7-08 everyone knows my opinion. This is a kid's caliber. Or a woman's. There is no honor in it.


Kids, womans... all I know is I've had to gut a sheeeeetload of big game that just fell plumb over time after time with that caliber.

-DallanC


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## Karl

DallanC said:


> Kids, womans... all I know is I've had to gut a sheeeeetload of big game that just fell plumb over time after time with that caliber.
> 
> -DallanC


Ok so why do you hunt with this cartridge?

Can you not take the recoil of a 270 ??

Can you not take the recoil of a 30-06 ??

Can you not take the recoil of a 300 ??

We owe the mammals that we kill a clean fast death.

The heavier the rifle cartridge, the faster and cleaner the death.

So what is your excuse for shooting a 243, 7-08 or a 308 ??

Please expound.


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## DallanC

Karl said:


> Ok so why do you hunt with this cartridge?
> 
> Can you not take the recoil of a 270 ??
> 
> Can you not take the recoil of a 30-06 ??
> 
> Can you not take the recoil of a 300 ??
> 
> We owe the mammals that we kill a clean fast death.
> 
> The heavier the rifle cartridge, the faster and cleaner the death.
> 
> So what is your excuse for shooting a 243, 7-08 or a 308 ??
> 
> Please expound.


See that is the huge problem I and alot of people have here with you. YOU simply misread things, then jump to completely incorrect assumptions and make arrogant, inaccurate statements. You make up poor strawmen arguments and get people to try and attack or defend it.

My excuse? For you believing I shoot a caliber that I dont? LMAO... Show me anywhere on this forum or any other, where I have said I shoot a 243, a 7mm08 or a 308. Go on, I'll even give you a few days. You cannot do it. You misread what I posted above, or you have atrocious comprehension... either way, I don't have to defend anything or make an excuse based on your ability to misconstrue posts.

For clarity, I primarily hunt with 50cal muzzleloaders or my 7MM STW. For absolute giggles this past year I broke out my 270 that I haven't fired in 10 years, and went and killed a really large antelope with it.

I would not hesitate to use a 7mm08 however, after seeing how fast and cleanly it kills everything up to elk. They just drop and die... each and every time.

-DallanC


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## wyogoob

DallanC said:


> ..............................................
> 
> I would not hesitate to use a 7mm08 however, after seeing how fast and cleanly it kills everything up to elk. They just drop and die... each and every time.
> 
> -DallanC


I knew it. I shoudda took my 7mm-08 on my sheep hunt.

I hate to change the subject but do any one of you experts know why the factory ammo guys crimp their bullets?

.


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## wyogoob

My 12 gauge deer slugs are not crimped.


Uh...I just thought I'd toss that out there while everyone is Googling why the factory ammo guys crimp their bullets.

.


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## reb8600

Karl said:


> Ok so why do you hunt with this cartridge?
> 
> Can you not take the recoil of a 270 ??
> 
> Can you not take the recoil of a 30-06 ??
> 
> Can you not take the recoil of a 300 ??
> 
> We owe the mammals that we kill a clean fast death.
> 
> The heavier the rifle cartridge, the faster and cleaner the death.
> 
> So what is your excuse for shooting a 243, 7-08 or a 308 ??
> 
> Please expound.


It is easy to make a clean and fast kill with smaller calibers. Shooting a larger caliber to make up for lack of accurate shooting is not good. I have seen a lot of deer fall to the 22-250 and the 6.5 creedmoor and seen elk fall to the 243 and 6.5. A bullet put where it belongs makes a very clean kill.


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## Karl

reb8600 said:


> It is easy to make a clean and fast kill with smaller calibers. Shooting a larger caliber to make up for lack of accurate shooting is not good. I have seen a lot of deer fall to the 22-250 and the 6.5 creedmoor and seen elk fall to the 243 and 6.5. A bullet put where it belongs makes a very clean kill.


More powerful cartridges result in more powerful hydrostatic shock.

If you can endure the recoil then why would you go to a lesser cartridge ??

Makes no sense at all, unless you are a child or a woman.


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## Karl

wyogoob said:


> My 12 gauge deer slugs are not crimped.
> 
> Uh...I just thought I'd toss that out there while everyone is Googling why the factory ammo guys crimp their bullets.
> 
> .


Neither are mine but I only use 12 gauge slugs for protection against bears in camp.


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## Karl

DallanC said:


> See that is the huge problem I and alot of people have here with you. YOU simply misread things, then jump to completely incorrect assumptions and make arrogant, inaccurate statements. You make up poor strawmen arguments and get people to try and attack or defend it.
> 
> My excuse? For you believing I shoot a caliber that I dont? LMAO... Show me anywhere on this forum or any other, where I have said I shoot a 243, a 7mm08 or a 308. Go on, I'll even give you a few days. You cannot do it. You misread what I posted above, or you have atrocious comprehension... either way, I don't have to defend anything or make an excuse based on your ability to misconstrue posts.
> 
> For clarity, I primarily hunt with 50cal muzzleloaders or my 7MM STW. For absolute giggles this past year I broke out my 270 that I haven't fired in 10 years, and went and killed a really large antelope with it.
> 
> I would not hesitate to use a 7mm08 however, after seeing how fast and cleanly it kills everything up to elk. They just drop and die... each and every time.
> 
> -DallanC


Glad to hear about your 270.


----------



## LostLouisianian

Will someone please turn off the wifi connection at the University of Utah .................so Karl will quit posting?


----------



## Loke

I'm still waiting for him to tell me about the 45/70 revolvers from the old west.


----------



## Loke

I crimp the bullets for my 44s.
The only time I crimp rifle bullets is when the case mouth lines up with the cannelures. I would crimp for the 300 RUM but I don't use calibers that were designed to give poor shooters an excuse to gut shoot deer.


----------



## LostLouisianian

Loke said:


> I'm still waiting for him to tell me about the 45/70 revolvers from the old west.


We need a new thread about Karl with a poll. Two answers to choose from...................................................................


----------



## Karl

You don't need a cannelure in order to crimp.

The crimping die presses the rim into the bullet nicely.


----------



## Loke

Loke said:


> So Karl, enlighten me on the subject of 45/70 revolvers from the old west. I know of many 45 Colt offerings, and some 45 Schofields. But the only 45/70 revolver that I'm familiar with is the BFR, introduced in 1979 by Magnum Research.


Still waiting.......


----------



## Karl

Loke said:


> Still waiting.......


Noted.


----------



## wyogoob

*Why is factory ammo crimped?*



wyogoob said:


> ................................................
> 
> ..........................................do any one of you experts know why the factory ammo guys crimp their bullets?
> 
> .


Still waiting..........

.


----------



## DallanC

wyogoob said:


> Still waiting..........
> 
> .


I did a little research last night and came across a comment about it making a better "air tight" seal around the bullet. Which would allow ammo to store for longer periods of time. That would certainly make it more moisture resistant in rainy conditions.

IDK if thats true, sounded plausible though. Be easy enough to dunk a couple reloads in a glass of water and let them soak... then pull the bullet and see if the power got wet.

-DallanC


----------



## Karl

DallanC said:


> I did a little research last night and came across a comment about it making a better "air tight" seal around the bullet. Which would allow ammo to store for longer periods of time. That would certainly make it more moisture resistant in rainy conditions.
> 
> IDK if thats true, sounded plausible though. Be easy enough to dunk a couple reloads in a glass of water and let them soak... then pull the bullet and see if the power got wet.
> 
> -DallanC


Not exactly.

Moisture is a function of air humidity and it takes a long time for equilibrium to work.

If you live in Arizona it might not be a problem.

If you live in Florida then definitely so.

The military travels to desert and jungle and they fire automatic weapons. And their supplies travel by ship and aircraft. They need to crimp. They cannot be lazy about it.

For anyone else it is just a quality assurance issue.


----------



## wyogoob

*crimp as a moisture barrier*



DallanC said:


> I did a little research last night and came across a comment about it making a better "air tight" seal around the bullet. Which would allow ammo to store for longer periods of time. That would certainly make it more moisture resistant in rainy conditions.
> 
> IDK if thats true, sounded plausible though. Be easy enough to dunk a couple reloads in a glass of water and let them soak... then pull the bullet and see if the power got wet.
> 
> -DallanC


Thank you.

That's interesting. I'm thinking it would be difficult for the brass to seal up against the serrations in the copper jacket.

I'll try it. It goes without saying I know little about reloading but I'm somewhat of an expert at unloading.

top of the page
.


----------



## Critter

Karl said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> The military travels to desert and jungle and they fire automatic weapons. And their supplies travel by ship and aircraft. They need to crimp. They cannot be lazy about it.
> 
> For anyone else it is just a quality assurance issue.


Military rounds use a cement on their rounds along with a primer sealer to try and prevent moisture from getting into the rounds, a crimp would do very little to help. Even with the cement there are cases of military rounds failing to fire due to moisture that has gotten into the rounds.


----------



## Loke

I've got an e-mail in to Hornady asking their professional opinion on this one. I'll relay the info if I hear back.


----------



## wyogoob

Last night an individual from Idaho, who wishes to remain anonymous, signed on to the UWN and sent me a PM. He told me there are a number of "closet crimpers" in Utah. Out of peer pressure they hide their reloads and ducks that are whole with the skin on them.

Anyway, I'm dying here. I'm trying to figure out why I missed that huge Bighorn ram; 
> I have new surgically-implanted eyeball lenses AND corrective eyeglasses
> Used a scope that cost around $1000
> I snuck up close, around 209 yards (uh..the last time I missed a huge Bighorn ram)
> Used a moderately expensive rifle made in America not purchased online or at a gun show.
> I'm an Irish Catholic. 
> Had factory ammo.

So I've checked out the scope and it was ok, only 6 or 7 inches high and to the left at 200 yards. So I'm thinking it was the ammo. I was using store-bought Remington Core-Lokts with factory crimps. uh oh

I know I'm a bad shot, but *why* I am a bad shot? After reading some of the posts here, now I'm thinking it's the crimps.

.


----------



## wyogoob

*Nosler crimps Accubond projectiles*



Loke said:


> I've got an e-mail in to Hornady asking their professional opinion on this one. I'll relay the info if I hear back.


Great, thanks. I got one out to Nosler.

.


----------



## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> Last night an individual from Idaho, who wishes to remain anonymous, signed on to the UWN and sent me a PM. He told me there are a number of "closet crimpers" in Utah. Out of peer pressure they hide their reloads and ducks that are whole with the skin on them.
> 
> Anyway, I'm dying here. I'm trying to figure out why I missed that huge Bighorn ram;
> > I have new surgically implanted eyeball lenses AND corrective eyeglasses
> > Used a scope that cost around $1000
> > I snuck up close, around 209 yards (uh..the last time I missed a huge Bighorn ram)
> > Used a moderately expensive rifle made in America not purchased online or at a gun show.
> > I'm an Irish Catholic.
> > Had factory ammo.
> 
> So I've checked out the scope and it was in, 6 or 7 inches high and left at 200 yards. So I'm thinking it was the ammo. I was using store-bought Remington Core-Lokts with factory crimps.
> 
> I know I'm a bad shot, but *why* am I a bad shot? After reading some of the posts here, I'm thinking it's the crimps.
> 
> .


Oh, I left out bullet jump. Besides being crimped, factory ammo is loaded short, off the lands a mile. So it's a wonder a guy could hit anything with those things.

So I'm going to experiment with that some. By "Experiment" I mean "hands on", no browsing the longrangehuntingreloading.coms.

I've got some reloads pushed out touching the lands on some 6.5s. These should make both DallanC and Karl happy. The bullets are small caliber but weigh over 200 grains:


Sorry, I'm getting off the original thread. I probably should start a separate Reloading thread on "How far off the lands?" I know that will go 25 pages.

.


----------



## DallanC

wyogoob said:


> These should make both DallanC and Karl happy.
> .


LOL dont lump me in with Karl please.

-DallanC


----------



## Loke

From the FAQ page at Barnes Bullets
Do you recommend crimping your bullets?
We usually don’t recommend crimping our smaller-caliber bullets. However, if you choose to do so, a light crimp is best. Heavy caliber bullets (.375 and up) for large game require a heavy crimp, as do most revolver and lever-rifle loads.


----------



## wyogoob

Loke said:


> From the FAQ page at Barnes Bullets
> Do you recommend crimping your bullets?
> We usually don't recommend crimping our smaller-caliber bullets. However, if you choose to do so, a light crimp is best. Heavy caliber bullets (.375 and up) for large game require a heavy crimp, as do most revolver and lever-rifle loads.


Thanks, great info. The Barnes 300 WSM factory ammo I have is crimped.

.


----------



## Loke

wyogoob said:


> Thanks, great info. The Barnes 300 WSM factory ammo I have is crimped.
> 
> .


must be loaded by Remington. they screw up everything lately.


----------



## wyogoob

I went down to the local gun store. The owner is an avid reloader, big game hunter and a long range shooting nut. He's been around firearms long enough to call a suppressor a "silencer" so he knows what he's talking about. Him and I went thru every brand and type of centerfire ammo on the shelves. I can't tell ya how pleasurable it is to goof up an ammo box flap and not get yelled at.

I think all of the "match" factory ammo did not have a crimp and nearly all of the other ammo was crimped. He was really surprised that most of the factory ammo was crimped. He said he only crimps for AR rifles.

I wish I would have had my cell phone and took some pictures.

Top of the page
.


----------



## Karl

wyogoob said:


> I went down to the local gun store. The owner is an avid reloader, big game hunter and a long range shooting nut. He's been around firearms long enough to call a suppressor a "silencer" so he knows what he's talking about. Him and I went thru every brand and type of centerfire ammo on the shelves. I can't tell ya how pleasurable it is to goof up an ammo box flap and not get yelled at.
> 
> I think all of the "match" factory ammo did not have a crimp and nearly all of the other ammo was crimped. He was really surprised that most of the factory ammo was crimped. He said he only crimps for AR rifles.
> 
> I wish I would have had my cell phone and took some pictures.
> 
> .


So recoil -- massive recoil in semi auto or fully auto mode -- seems to be why ammo is crimped.

And for everything else in the match grade they must be assuming you will not put the cartridges through a lot of abuse during travel such as to push them out of place. They must also be assuming lite recoil (such as with a 243, 7-08 or 308 cartridge) for the match grade. Because high recoil from a magnum is going to seat deeper the bullets in the box mag, unless you are shooting with only one cartridge loaded into the gun at a time. Most match grade is 308 that I know of -- the lite recoil girlie guns.

Thanks for the research and the report Goob.


----------



## Karl

For the younger guys, silencers used to be called silencers before it became vogue to call them supressors.

Suppressors used to be associated with flash suppressors, since without one there is a big plume of fire in front of your muzzle if you don't have one.

Whenever a kid calls a silencer a suppressor I usually confirm "you mean silencer?"


----------



## wyogoob

Karl said:


> ................................
> 
> Whenever a kid calls a silencer a suppressor I usually confirm "you mean silencer?"


Uh....I don't doubt that at all.

.


----------



## Karl

wyogoob said:


> Uh....I don't doubt that at all.
> 
> .


I am not particularly fond of "new-speak".


----------



## Critter

wyogoob said:


> I wish I would have had my cell phone and took some pictures.
> 
> Top of the page
> .


You got a cell phone that takes pictures??????


----------



## DallanC

wyogoob said:


> Uh....I don't doubt that at all.
> 
> .


Now that there is funny!

-DallanC


----------



## wyogoob

*who cares?*



Karl said:


> I am not particularly fond of "new-speak".


My friend, hopefully like myself, is open-minded enough to go either way, suppressor or silencer. He sells a lot of suppressors so he'll call them whatever it takes. His displays and ads say "silencers". I think "suppressor" is the more common term these days.

I'll run a thread on it. Prolly go 7 pages.

.


----------



## Critter

Karl said:


> For the younger guys, silencers used to be called silencers before it became vogue to call them supressors.
> 
> Supressors used to be associated with flash supressors, since without one there is a big plume of fire in front of your muzzle if you don't have one.
> 
> Whenever a kid calls a silencer a suppressor I usually confirm "you mean silencer?"


Really suppressor is the correct term. A silencer would eliminate all noise where the devise we know actually just diminish it, or actually suppress it down to a lower level.


----------



## wyogoob

Critter said:


> You got a cell phone that takes pictures??????


Well yeah, and like my Grandkids showed me how to use it.

.


----------



## wyogoob

*Critter, do you wanna arm wrestle?*



Critter said:


> Really suppressor is the correct term. A silencer would eliminate all noise where the devise we know actually just diminish it, or actually suppress it down to a lower level.


Yes. Like "pronghorn" but we say "antelope"

top of da page

.


----------



## Karl

Critter said:


> Really suppressor is the correct term. A silencer would eliminate all noise where the devise we know actually just diminish it, or actually suppress it down to a lower level.


Oh Jeeze!

"I would like a suppressor, Sir. Do you have any?"

"Sure we have sound suppressors, flash suppressors, heat suppressors, grip suppressors, shine suppressors, etc. What would you like to suppress?"


----------



## Karl

wyogoob said:


> My friend, hopefully like myself, is open-minded enough to go either way, suppressor or silencer. He sells a lot of suppressors so he'll call them whatever it takes. His displays and ads say "silencers". I think "suppressor" is the more common term these days.
> 
> I'll run a thread on it. Prolly go 7 pages.
> 
> .


He (your buddy) is a salesman. He is not served by pointing out the fallacy of "new-speak".

Remember "the customer is always right".

This is a variation of the commercial doctrine of "buyer beware".


----------



## wyogoob

Karl said:


> Oh Jeeze!
> 
> "I would like a suppressor, Sir. Do you have any?"
> 
> "Sure we have sound suppressors, flash suppressors, heat suppressors, grip suppressors, shine suppressors, etc. What would you like to suppress?"



Karl, Karl, Karl

This thread is about crimping. Stay focused like me.

.


----------



## Karl

wyogoob said:


> Yes. Like "pronghorn" but we say "antelope"
> 
> top of da page
> 
> .


I have heard this critter described both ways.

Antelope is more of a generic world wide term and applies to African as well as American antelopes.

Pronghorn is more of an American colloquialism for American antelope.

Not sure if American and African antelope taste the same.

But the Africans are bigger -- huge actually.

The Americans are smaller -- and almost impossible to sneak up on.

That's why a 6.5 caliber bullet is excellent for Pronghorns because this is a very long range round and the animal is as small as a human, so a Japanese anti personnel cartridge works well on Pronghorns without compromising your ethics of a clean kill for the mammal, as with bigger species.


----------



## Karl

wyogoob said:


> Karl, Karl, Karl
> 
> This thread is about crimping. Stay focused like me.
> 
> .


I crimp all my antelope cartridges.

Same with the bear cartridges.

Same with the deer and the elk. And the pig.

But I don't reload/load 5.56x45 or 45ACP ammo because I buy that in bulk and there is no need to create high accuracy match loads for these. They are high volume anti personnel cartridges.

Ok now back on point.


----------



## Kwalk3

I've heard some people crimp their hair. Do you think that would be a good life choice for me? Thanks in advance.....


----------



## LostLouisianian

wyogoob said:


> Karl, Karl, Karl
> 
> This thread is about crimping. Stay focused like me.
> 
> .


I would like to suppress *KARL !!!!!!!!
*


----------



## wyogoob

Kwalk3 said:


> I've heard some people crimp their hair. Do you think that would be a good life choice for me? Thanks in advance.....


Yes, worked for me in the early 80s.

Finally, some useful dialog about crimping. Thank you.

.


----------



## DallanC

Karl said:


> I have heard this critter described both ways.
> 
> Antelope is more of a generic world wide term and applies to African as well as American antelopes.
> 
> Pronghorn is more of an American colloquialism for American antelope.
> 
> Not sure if American and African antelope taste the same.
> 
> But the Africans are bigger -- huge actually.


Anything else from 3rd grade world sciences you wish to share?



> The Americans are smaller -- and almost impossible to sneak up on.


Geeze it hasn't even been a week since I reposted the link to of my wife sneaking up within 40 yards of a pronghorn and shooting it.



> That's why a 6.5 caliber bullet is excellent for Pronghorns because this is a very long range round and the animal is as small as a human, so a Japanese anti personnel cartridge works well on Pronghorns without compromising your ethics of a clean kill for the mammal, as with bigger species.


Except that FMJ rounds are illegal to hunt with but hey, whatever.

-DallanC


----------



## wyogoob

I can't thank everyone enough for all their useful posts on rifle crimping.

Here's what I've learned so far:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


----------



## Karl

wyogoob said:


> I can't thank everyone enough for all their useful posts on rifle crimping.
> 
> Here's what I've learned so far:
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .


Summary (good technical writing always has a summary -- actually two of them -- a shorter one at the front called Exec Summary and a bigger one at the end touching on all conclusionary points made):

1 - if you don't crimp then you should only load one round at a time into your gun because otherwise the recoil will reseat your bullets in the box magazine deeper than you wanted them to;

2 - if you don't crimp then you need to carry your cartridges in a hard container of some kind so that the bullets don't get shoved deeper during transport than you intended;

3 - if you don't crimp then it shows that your momma never taught you to do anything right the first time.

(Notice the semicolons ?!)


----------



## Springville Shooter

DallanC said:


> You guys and your spelling, lets settle this right now. On the count of 3, Spell "kemmerrrerrerrr" correctly:
> 
> 1...
> 
> 2...
> 
> 3...
> 
> -DallanC


My two favorite brothers both live there and I still don't know exactly how many ererer's are in Kemmererer...er..er..er?-----SS


----------



## wyogoob

Karl said:


> Summary (good technical writing always has a summary -- actually two of them -- a shorter one at the front called Exec Summary and a bigger one at the end touching on all conclusionary points made):
> 
> 1 - if you don't crimp then you should only load one round at a time into your gun because otherwise the recoil will reseat your bullets in the box magazine deeper than you wanted them to;
> 
> 2 - if you don't crimp then you need to carry your cartridges in a hard container of some kind so that the bullets don't get shoved deeper during transport than you intended;
> 
> 3 - if you don't crimp then it shows that your momma never taught you to do anything right the first time.
> 
> (Notice the semicolons ?!)


I always have an Executive Summary but at the end of the document I do "Recommendations" and then the normal waiver saying I'm not responsible for anything when it fails. :|

.


----------



## wyogoob

Karl, stay focused, like this:


----------



## Kwalk3

Karl said:


> Summary (good technical writing always has a summary -- actually two of them -- a shorter one at the front called Exec Summary and a bigger one at the end touching on all conclusionary points made):
> 
> 1 - if you don't crimp then you should only load one round at a time into your gun because otherwise the recoil will reseat your bullets in the box magazine deeper than you wanted them to;
> 
> 2 - if you don't crimp then you need to carry your cartridges in a hard container of some kind so that the bullets don't get shoved deeper during transport than you intended;
> 
> 3 - if you don't crimp then it shows that your momma never taught you to do anything right the first time.
> 
> (Notice the semicolons ?!)


A forum generally dedicated to hunting, fishing, shooting, offal-eating, and all other manner of redneckery is very near the bottom of my list of places to find sound technical writing.


----------



## Karl

Kwalk3 said:


> A forum generally dedicated to hunting, fishing, shooting, offal-eating, and all other manner of redneckery is very near the bottom of my list of places to find sound technical writing.


Tell me about it.


----------



## Kwalk3

Springville Shooter said:


> My two favorite brothers both live there and I still don't know exactly how many ererer's are in Kemmererer...er..er..er?-----SS


My dad grew up there. I think the town slogan is something like, "When in doubt, add an 'er'." They teach it in school with the other grammatical rules like i before e. He never told me any of this, but I'm sure it's true.


----------



## Karl

Springville Shooter said:


> My two favorite brothers both live there and I still don't know exactly how many ererer's are in Kemmererer...er..er..er?-----SS


Seems like a nice place -- just like the rest of Wyo.

http://www.kemmerer.org/


----------



## KineKilla

I only crimp my pistol (.40 S&W, 9mm) and .223/5.56 rounds that will be shot in semi-auto rifles. When I start reloading 45 Colt for my lever action I will crimp those as well.

I don't crimp any of my bolt action loads and they all seem to shoot just fine as well as load/unload without the C.O.A.L. changing so I see no reason to take the extra step.

I'd say regardless of whether factory ammo (they deal with more liability issues than I do) is crimped or not, consistency is probably the real key to success so do what works and stick to it.


----------



## Karl

KineKilla said:


> I only crimp my pistol (.40 S&W, 9mm) and .223/5.56 rounds that will be shot in semi-auto rifles. When I start reloading 45 Colt for my lever action I will crimp those as well.
> 
> I don't crimp any of my bolt action loads and they all seem to shoot just fine as well as load/unload without the C.O.A.L. changing so I see no reason to take the extra step.
> 
> I'd say regardless of whether factory ammo (they deal with more liability issues than I do) is crimped or not, consistency is probably the real key to success so do what works and stick to it.


On lite recoil bolt action rifles like the 243, 7-08, and 308 (girlie guns) this is probably ok -- not to crimp.

On heavier recoil rifles like the 270, 30-06, and the 300's (manly guns) if you load uncrimped cartridges into the box magazine, and then shoot the first one, then take out the others and look at them, you will see that the recoil has seeded the bullets back deeper than you intended if you compare them side by side with a new cartridge out of your plastic box.

By the time you shoot that last cartridge the bullet will have moved significantly. There goes your consistency out the window then.

It probably does not matter because you will still hit your target. But consistency has gone out the window. They won't be 1/4 to 1/2 moa groups anymore. So what was the sense in reloading without crimping unless you are going to shoot them one at a time in the gun ??


----------



## Loke

Loke said:


> So Karl, enlighten me on the subject of 45/70 revolvers from the old west. I know of many 45 Colt offerings, and some 45 Schofields. But the only 45/70 revolver that I'm familiar with is the BFR, introduced in 1979 by Magnum Research.


Crickets....


----------



## KineKilla

Karl said:


> KineKilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> I only crimp my pistol (.40 S&W, 9mm) and .223/5.56 rounds that will be shot in semi-auto rifles. When I start reloading 45 Colt for my lever action I will crimp those as well.
> 
> I don't crimp any of my bolt action loads and they all seem to shoot just fine as well as load/unload without the C.O.A.L. changing so I see no reason to take the extra step.
> 
> I'd say regardless of whether factory ammo (they deal with more liability issues than I do) is crimped or not, consistency is probably the real key to success so do what works and stick to it.
> 
> 
> 
> On lite recoil bolt action rifles like the 243, 7-08, and 308 (girlie guns) this is probably ok -- not to crimp.
> 
> On heavier recoil rifles like the 270, 30-06, and the 300's (manly guns) if you load uncrimped cartridges into the box magazine, and then shoot the first one, then take out the others and look at them, you will see that the recoil has seeded the bullets back deeper than you intended if you compare them side by side with a new cartridge out of your plastic box.
> 
> By the time you shoot that last cartridge the bullet will have moved significantly. There goes your consistency out the window then.
> 
> It probably does not matter because you will still hit your target. But consistency has gone out the window. They won't be 1/4 to 1/2 moa groups anymore. So what was the sense in reloading without crimping unless you are going to shoot them one at a time in the gun ??
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I have to disagree.

I have and reload for 3 separate .270's and my 7mm. As I stated...the COAL does not change when shooting when un-crimped. I should say it doesn't change in any measurable amount that can be attributed to recoil vs. normal variances in ammunition due to component variation. It seems ALL components vary in +/- 0.0005 amounts here and there.

Proper sizing technique, case prep and neck tension seem to work well and hold the projectile tightly in place. This is MY experience and may not hold true in all instances.


----------



## wyogoob

As far as I can tell my old Newton reloader will not crimp. On a positive note it does size the case neck quite a bit smaller than my RCBS or C&H 256 Newton dies.

Hey, this thread needs a picture every once in awhile:




Should I get a Lee Factory Crimp die for the Newton? $31 plus shipping

I should have made this a poll question.

.


----------



## Critter

Karl said:


> On lite recoil bolt action rifles like the 243, 7-08, and 308 (girlie guns) this is probably ok -- not to crimp.
> 
> On heavier recoil rifles like the 270, 30-06, and the 300's (manly guns) if you load uncrimped cartridges into the box magazine, and then shoot the first one, then take out the others and look at them, you will see that the recoil has seeded the bullets back deeper than you intended if you compare them side by side with a new cartridge out of your plastic box.
> 
> By the time you shoot that last cartridge the bullet will have moved significantly. There goes your consistency out the window then.
> 
> It probably does not matter because you will still hit your target. But consistency has gone out the window. They won't be 1/4 to 1/2 moa groups anymore. So what was the sense in reloading without crimping unless you are going to shoot them one at a time in the gun ??


I have been shooting my .340 Weatherby for over 20 years without crimping the loads and haven't had a single bullet move.

So now what are you going to come up with without any fact to back it up?


----------



## wyogoob

This is my favorite thread but could we wrap this up in 12 or 13 more pages and move onto crimping handgun bullets?

.


----------



## Critter

I have always put a crimp on my handgun rounds that I load for. .38, 357, 41, 44, and 357 Herrett. I haven't started loading for my .40 S&W yet but have a lot of range brass to start with. But then it headspaces on the case mouth so if any crimp it would have to be a taper one.


----------



## Loke

Just in from Hornady.

"We crimp all of our factory rounds to ensure feeding into multiple styles of firearms, and some times to get pressures uniformed from one round to the next."

No mention of seating depth issues, bullet set-back during firing or keeping the bullet from moving during rough handling.


----------



## LostLouisianian

Loke said:


> Just in from Hornady.
> 
> "We crimp all of our factory rounds to ensure feeding into multiple styles of firearms, and some times to get pressures uniformed from one round to the next."
> 
> No mention of seating depth issues, bullet set-back during firing or keeping the bullet from moving during rough handling.


Hmmm if it's good enough for Hornady....I would still like to see if there is any accuracy difference in crimped or uncrimped...gooooooooooooooooooob?


----------



## Bax*

So I understand that crimping plays a vital role in reloading, but I still don't understand if it takes 56 flapjacks to shingle the roof of a doghouse, then how long would it take a chicken with a wooden leg to kick a hole in a peanut?


----------



## Loke

42.


----------



## Bax*

Loke said:


> 42.


 Yeah but that's because ice cream doesn't have bones.


----------



## wyogoob

*I've never crimped but I hate it.*



LostLouisianian said:


> Hmmm if it's good enough for Hornady....I would still like to see if there is any accuracy difference in crimped or uncrimped...gooooooooooooooooooob?


Like I said before there are literally thousands of threads on the internet about crimping vs not crimping rifle bullets. I seen a lot of threads that show targets, have chrono readings, of crimped and not crimped. Many show an improvement, an equal number of tests call it a wash, some show accuracy was worse. Pictures, graphs, targets...just help yourself, Google away. If your computer is down let me know and you can borrow mine.

I hate reloading, always have. I'm building up enough loaded ammo to last me until I die, and then some I suppose. So soon I will quit reloading, put all this crap away again and build fly rods or tie flies.

Nothing is worse than crimping rifle bullets, especially with an RCBS seater die. (well, maybe loading 3" .410 shells) But I have a couple rifles I just can't get consistent chrono speeds for. The 257 Weatherby is one. So that's what prompted me to do some experimenting with crimping. I haven't taken the time to do any "same day" comparisons yet.

I'm still waiting for 2 bullet manufactures to answer my "why do you crimp?" emails. I may have to call them. Some don't want to be held to written word.

I don't think you can argue these two things: 
> If you want to try crimping use a collet die. 
> Crimping shortens the life span of the brass.

.


----------



## wyogoob

Man, hard to get to the top of the page anymore.

12 more pages to go here and then I'm putting up a handgun bullet crimping thread. 

.


----------



## wyogoob

Loke said:


> Just in from Hornady.
> 
> "We crimp all of our factory rounds to ensure feeding into multiple styles of firearms, and some times to get pressures uniformed from one round to the next."
> 
> No mention of seating depth issues, bullet set-back during firing or keeping the bullet from moving during rough handling.


Thanks. I sent them an inquiry but didn't get a reply. They always did like you best.

.


----------



## Springville Shooter

Hornady responds quicker if you add "Go big Red" at the end of your email. Nosler responds to either "Go Ducks" or "You can't lick our Beavers". 

There's a little inside info for y'all. Be sure to tag this for future reference.-------SS


----------



## wyogoob

Springville Shooter said:


> Hornady responds quicker if you add "Go big Red" at the end of your email. Nosler responds to either "Go Ducks" or "You can't lick our Beavers".
> 
> There's a little inside info for y'all. Be sure to tag this for future reference.-------SS


Tagged, thanks.

.


----------



## KineKilla

Springville Shooter said:


> Hornady responds quicker if you add "Go big Red" at the end of your email. Nosler responds to either "Go Ducks" or "You can't lick our Beavers".
> 
> There's a little inside info for y'all. Be sure to tag this for future reference.-------SS


This should get nominated or at least put in the running for "Post of the Year"

Personally, I don't feel that crimping the case into the copper side of a non-cannelured projectile will be beneficial to anything, and may serve to only hurt aerodynamics, increase pressures and add time to the reloading process. For cannelured bullets it may not have as significant an effect on two of those things.

I sure hope you come up with some tangible evidence one way or the other when you do your testing Goob. I do not own a chronograph nor any means of testing pressures so my evidence is strictly based of "on paper and on game" performance.


----------



## LostLouisianian

KineKilla said:


> This should get nominated or at least put in the running for "Post of the Year"


Didn't goob have a beaver recipe thread he started a while back? Oh wait, I get it .... hahahahahahha


----------



## wyogoob

*beavers are funny*



LostLouisianian said:


> Didn't goob have a beaver recipe thread he started a while back? Oh wait, I get it .... hahahahahahha


Hey, I rarely go off topic but I got a story to tell.

I worked in Toledo OR last spring, just over the hill from Corvallis, Oregon State University. I had dinner with high school friend of mine that taught at OSU (he's now retired) That guy, and the waitress at the restaurant, knew all the beaver jokes. I never laughed so hard in my life. (well maybe until I put this thread up) And then there's the guys at work with the rivalry between the Ducks and the Beavers. They got some knee-slappers now. :mrgreen:

.


----------



## Springville Shooter

Imagine if there ever developed a rivalry between Wyoming and Oregon State. That would bring out the naughty teenaged boy in all of us.------SS


----------



## wyogoob

I went to the "other" gun store in Evingston today. 2 long-range shooter friends of mine told me they crimp some of their match bullets.

It's true. I'm not making this up. I have friends.

.


----------



## reb8600

KineKilla said:


> Unfortunately I have to disagree.
> 
> I have and reload for 3 separate .270's and my 7mm. As I stated...the COAL does not change when shooting when un-crimped. I should say it doesn't change in any measurable amount that can be attributed to recoil vs. normal variances in ammunition due to component variation. It seems ALL components vary in +/- 0.0005 amounts here and there.
> 
> Proper sizing technique, case prep and neck tension seem to work well and hold the projectile tightly in place. This is MY experience and may not hold true in all instances.


You are correct and Karl has no idea what he is talking about. I have loaded for my 270 and my 7mm and never crimped one round. Never had any issues with bullets seating deeper. Soft points will flatten but never had a bullet move and I have fired thousands of rounds. Good neck tension is all that is needed.


----------



## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> I went to the "other" gun store in Evingston today. 2 long-range shooter friends of mine told me they crimp some of their match bullets.
> 
> It's true. I'm not making this up. I have friends.
> 
> .


Tough crowd. I gotta work on my delivery.

.


----------



## Springville Shooter

Some interesting data......

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html


----------



## Loke

We just don't believe there is an "other" gun store in evingston


----------



## wyogoob

KineKilla said:


> .....................................
> 
> Personally, I don't feel that crimping the case into the copper side of a non-cannelured projectile will be beneficial to anything, and may serve to only hurt aerodynamics, increase pressures and add time to the reloading process. Yeah, I'm not doing it, Nosler is. For cannelured bullets it may not have as significant an effect on two of those things. Depends on who you listen to or what your agenda is. Speer has always said don't do it, Lee who sell crimping dies says it's great.
> 
> 
> I sure hope you come up with some tangible evidence one way or the other when you do your testing Goob. I do not own a chronograph nor any means of testing pressures so my evidence is strictly based of "on paper and on game" performance. Yeah, thanks. Like I said at the start of this thing I'm not going to do any more of the Google search thing. I've read literally hundreds of them. And you can find an equal number of pro and cons for crimping rifle bullets in every imaginable type of rifle on the web. A lot of it is contentious. Anyway, you can spend an eternity reading all the crimping threads, if you're open-minded. If you have an agenda It won't take very long I guess.
> 
> I use a variety of firearm types for big game hunting; slug shotguns, revolvers, bolt actions, cast bullets, and semi-autos. On this year's elk hunt I carried a 30s-era pump Remington 141 in 35 Remington. Some of these guns obviously need crimped ammo. So I'm always dealing with crimping. I'm thinking some crimping experts never hunted big game with anything but a bolt action rifle. Again, I said at the start I don't crimp for bolt action rifles. But a lot of people do so I'm going to try it out myself.
> 
> I've never been a great shot, relied on my outdoor skills to make up for it. And my marksmanship is getting worse recently. I'm having trouble even sighting a rifle in with a scope. So I'm troubleshooting everything, triggers, bedding, scopes, and reloading. Good grief, I'm so scared of my reloading I used factory ammo on my last sheep hunt.
> 
> One more thing. My dies are Herter's, CH, mostly RCBS, the old-school stuff. Controlling neck tension with non-collet type dies is dicey, not consistent. I can see that on the chronograph it's not consistent, especially with brass that's been fired a few times. So I want to improve the consistency of the reloads with the dies I have. At 65 I'm not buying new dies for all the centerfire rifles I shoot. Hopefully crimping won't help much and I can use my expensive oddball vintage-caliber brass for a long time.
> 
> So I want to make these comparisons myself and it all takes time. Thanks for your comments.


see red


----------



## wyogoob

Loke said:


> We just don't believe there is an "other" gun store in evingston


see: www.lookitupyerself 

Hey do you have those CH bullet cannelure tools for sale at the store or can I just borrow yours?

.


----------



## 35whelen

I crimp with my hornady dies now that I've got a tentative grasp on how they work. I had a crimp die for my .358 win before I sold it but never noticed a difference


----------



## wyogoob

*I'd rather do laundry than reload*

I reloaded and crimped some .308 150gr Core-Lokt and .250 Savage 100gr Core-Lokts. Same COAL as factory yellow box.

Already shot and recorded data on:
Factory yellow box .308 150gr and .250 Savage 100gr Core-Lokts.

Reloaded .308 150gr and .250 Savage 100 gr Core-Lokt, no crimp, same COAL as factory.

Two great blue-collar calibers for where I live. 

.


----------



## bullsnot

Karl said:


> On lite recoil bolt action rifles like the 243, 7-08, and 308 (girlie guns) this is probably ok -- not to crimp.
> 
> On heavier recoil rifles like the 270, 30-06, and the 300's (manly guns) if you load uncrimped cartridges into the box magazine, and then shoot the first one, then take out the others and look at them, you will see that the recoil has seeded the bullets back deeper than you intended if you compare them side by side with a new cartridge out of your plastic box.
> 
> By the time you shoot that last cartridge the bullet will have moved significantly. There goes your consistency out the window then.
> 
> It probably does not matter because you will still hit your target. But consistency has gone out the window. They won't be 1/4 to 1/2 moa groups anymore. So what was the sense in reloading without crimping unless you are going to shoot them one at a time in the gun ??


Uh....pretty sure not a single word of that is true. Sorry, I mean that was very anecdotal.

I have several "manly" rifles, even a few super hero rifles, and the bullet seating depth doesn't change with recoil.

I have found however that the chambering action of a semi-auto rifle can change the seating depth of a bullet although it was subtle. I tested this very thing before deciding to crimp my AR rounds. After doing a test I decided to crimp.


----------



## DallanC

I load my cartridges into the rifle with equal spacing between tip and magazine box wall, and primer to magazine box wall. Cartridges have quite a bit of room to move around if recoil was super stout. Bullets would ONLY shift in a case if the tip were already touching the mag wall when the rifle recoils, to transfer energy to the bullet tip directly. One would expect to see some tip deformation if recoil was such a factor impacting rounds.

As is, I've never seen any such damage or setback, even from my 7STW shooting those hot, fast, heavy loads. And it would really only be the final cartridge that should show any / most effect... being it was subjected to recoil of 2 or 3 prior firings.

But I agree with Bullsnot, its just not a factor in my guns.


-DallanC


----------



## wyogoob

DallanC said:


> I load my cartridges into the rifle with equal spacing between tip and magazine box wall, and primer to magazine box wall. Cartridges have quite a bit of room to move around if recoil was super stout. ........................................................
> 
> .......................................................
> 
> -DallanC


I prefer to leave more room in the front of the magazine:


----------



## LostLouisianian

wyogoob said:


> DallanC said:
> 
> 
> 
> I load my cartridges into the rifle with equal spacing between tip and magazine box wall, and primer to magazine box wall. Cartridges have quite a bit of room to move around if recoil was super stout. ........................................................
> 
> .......................................................
> 
> -DallanC
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer to leave more room in the front of the magazine:
Click to expand...

I may have figured out why you missed the ram.


----------



## DallanC

LostLouisianian said:


> I may have figured out why you missed the ram.


Haha I thought the exact same thing.

-DallanC


----------



## Dunkem

wyogoob said:


> I prefer to leave more room in the front of the magazine:


 Ahh, I've never reloaded a bullet in my life---but--something looks wrong there.


----------



## cedaryotes

I like to crimp for an auto loader (ar-15)


----------



## DallanC

That there is called a "super crimp".


-DallanC


----------



## wyogoob

*I crimped in 1981*



Kwalk3 said:


> I've heard some people crimp their hair. Do you think that would be a good life choice for me? Thanks in advance.....


Yes, crimping was popular in the early 80s:


.


----------



## Karl

DallanC said:


> I load my cartridges into the rifle with equal spacing between tip and magazine box wall, and primer to magazine box wall. Cartridges have quite a bit of room to move around if recoil was super stout. Bullets would ONLY shift in a case if the tip were already touching the mag wall when the rifle recoils, to transfer energy to the bullet tip directly. One would expect to see some tip deformation if recoil was such a factor impacting rounds.
> 
> As is, I've never seen any such damage or setback, even from my 7STW shooting those hot, fast, heavy loads. And it would really only be the final cartridge that should show any / most effect... being it was subjected to recoil of 2 or 3 prior firings.
> 
> But I agree with Bullsnot, its just not a factor in my guns.
> 
> -DallanC


So what is the most powerful rifle you have ever shot ??

This is the missing link in your anecdotal comment.

It therefore lacks a lot of logical substance.

Your Latin is pretty good though.


----------



## Karl

bullsnot said:


> Uh....pretty sure not a single word of that is true. Sorry, I mean that was very anecdotal.
> 
> I have several "manly" rifles, even a few super hero rifles, and the bullet seating depth doesn't change with recoil.
> 
> I have found however that the chambering action of a semi-auto rifle can change the seating depth of a bullet although it was subtle. I tested this very thing before deciding to crimp my AR rounds. After doing a test I decided to crimp.


Most of my experience is with the 300 magnums.

On the 270's and the 30-06 I am surmising.

It may be that you do not need to crimp the 270's or the 30-06's.

But if I went to all the trouble of loading then I would crimp to just to make sure nothing alters my seated bullet depth.


----------



## wyogoob

Karl said:


> So what is the most powerful rifle you have ever shot ??
> .............................................................


Can I go? Can I go?

.


----------



## Loke

Karl said:


> Most of my experience is with the 300 magnums.
> 
> On the 270's and the 30-06 I am surmising.
> 
> It may be that you do not need to crimp the 270's or the 30-06's.
> 
> But if I went to all the trouble of loading then I would crimp to just to make sure nothing alters my seated bullet depth.


So you don't handload, and have no experience with calibers other than the 300. Your assumptions are therefor more valid than the personal knowledge of those that do. Ok. Makes perfect sense.


----------



## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> Can I go? Can I go?
> 
> .


bump

.


----------



## LostLouisianian

wyogoob said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can I go? Can I go?
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> bump
> 
> .
Click to expand...

.729 with an 820 grain projectile


----------



## wyogoob

LostLouisianian said:


> .729 with an 820 grain projectile


No, but I get it. My biggest gun in that range was .729" cal x 492 grain (1.125 oz) Those guns make the .50 cal a girly gun.

I shot a 25mm (1.000") MK38 a number of times. Full auto, chain feed, with a weird optical sight thingie. Shot at a 4' diameter red circle on a 4' x 8' white sheet of plywood, 2 clicks (@2200 yards) away while it was bobbing up and down in rough seas.

Orbital ATK - M793 TP-T tracer bullet - weight = 7,593 grains

They were heavily crimped with a collet-type crimp die.

Time of flight at 2200 yards = just under 4 seconds

It was a blast!! I mean really a blast!!

I kept an empty case as a souvenir. It has the model number of the round stenciled on the case:


I think I even have a picture of me shooting that gun.

The little .50 cals in the background are heavily crimped too, typical for a full-auto .50 cal machine gun.

.


----------



## bullsnot

Karl said:


> Most of my experience is with the 300 magnums.
> 
> On the 270's and the 30-06 I am surmising.
> 
> It may be that you do not need to crimp the 270's or the 30-06's.
> 
> But if I went to all the trouble of loading then I would crimp to just to make sure nothing alters my seated bullet depth.


Ok, I can somewhat see what you are saying. If you don't know any better then "better safe than sorry" is a good practice.

The truth is though generally full length sizing will give more than adequate neck tension to hold the bullet in place in large majority of situations. There may be instances where we are talking about the recoil of a .338-378 or a .416 Weatherby and then crimping becomes a better practice and worth the time and effort in a bolt gun.


----------



## Bax*

Goob, that may be the next pdog round to suggest to Al.


----------



## LostLouisianian

wyogoob said:


> No, but I get it. My biggest gun in that range was .729" cal x 492 grain (1.125 oz) Those guns make the .50 cal a girly gun.
> 
> I shot a 25mm (1.000") MK38 a number of times. Full auto, chain feed, with a weird optical sight thingie. Shot at a 4' diameter red circle on a 4' x 8' white sheet of plywood, 2 clicks (@2200 yards) away while it was bobbing up and down in rough seas.
> 
> Orbital ATK - M793 TP-T tracer bullet - weight = 7,593 grains
> 
> They were heavily crimped with a collet-type crimp die.
> 
> Time of flight at 2200 yards = just under 4 seconds
> 
> It was a blast!! I mean really a blast!!
> 
> I kept an empty case as a souvenir. It has the model number of the round stenciled on the case:
> 
> 
> I think I even have a picture of me shooting that gun.
> 
> The little .50 cals in the background are heavily crimped too, typical for a full-auto .50 cal machine gun.
> 
> .


Color me jealous


----------



## wyogoob

Bax* said:


> Goob, that may be the next pdog round to suggest to Al.


Ha, ha.

I'm thinking the stencil on the 25mm case weighs more than the .20 Practical bullet.

.


----------



## wyogoob

*Is a post anecdotal if you're asking a question?*

A number of years ago I got a bunch of used .300 Win Mag once-fired casings from the brass guy in Salt Lake City. The claim was that the brass was US Marine Corp once-fired. Wow, I'm thinking sniper stuff now. And hey, who cares how many times it'd been fired or if my new primers fell out of the pockets, I had to get me some of those. So I got enough of them to last me until 2037. I couldn't help but notice the few thousand I looked at had been crimped. What the ....?

Karl?

Lot of government experts here, anyone?

topofdapage
.


----------



## bowgy

:shock: Okay.....note to self.....do not read any posts by goob while drinking soda.


----------



## Dunkem

bowgy said:


> :shock: Okay.....note to self.....do not read any posts by goob while drinking soda.


 True story!! That carbinated stuff hurts coming out the nose!


----------



## Dunkem

wyogoob said:


> A number of years ago I got a bunch of used .300 Win Mag once-fired casings from the brass guy in Salt Lake City. The claim was that the brass was US Marine Corp once-fired. Wow, I'm thinking sniper stuff now. And hey, who cares how many times it'd been fired or if my new primers fell out of the pockets, I had to get me some of those. So I got enough of them to last me until 2037. I couldn't help but notice the few thousand I looked at had been crimped. What the ....?
> 
> Karl?
> 
> Lot of government experts here, anyone?
> 
> topofdapage
> .


 I am going to tag this for future reference!


----------



## wyogoob

*Nosler says:*

From Nosler's Customer Service Coordinator:


All of the OEM ammunition uses a factory crimp. This is a process that is used to meet the needs of Factory loaded ammunition and specifications.

Thank you


.


----------



## wyogoob

*Richard Nixon said what?*



wyogoob said:


> From Nosler's Customer Service Coordinator:
> 
> 
> All of the OEM ammunition uses a factory crimp. This is a process that is used to meet the needs of Factory loaded ammunition and specifications.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> .


Not the technical-based answer I expected. Kinda reminds me of what Richard Nixon once said:


"I don't think you quite understand that what you believe I may have meant isn't what you think I said."

.


----------



## LostLouisianian

wyogoob said:


> From Nosler's Customer Service Coordinator:
> 
> 
> All of the OEM ammunition uses a factory crimp. This is a process that is used to meet the needs of Factory loaded ammunition and specifications.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> .


Well that explains uh nothing. Looks like their lawyers wrote that


----------



## wyogoob

*Sign up for cannelured Accubond bullets here*





As far as I know Nosler doesn't offer Accubond bullets with a cannelure over the counter. I'm thinking as many rifle ammo crimping fans as there are here Nosler could give us a UWN Special rate.

I'm in for 6.5s.

.


----------



## DallanC

Reminds me of this old story:



> A young woman is preparing a pot roast while her friend looks on. She cuts off both ends of the roast, prepares it and puts it in the pan. "Why do you cut off the ends?" her friend asks. "I don't know", she replies. "My mother always did it that way and I learned how to cook it from her".
> 
> Her friend's question made her curious about her pot roast preparation. During her next visit home, she asked her mother, "How do you cook a pot roast?" Her mother proceeded to explain and added, "You cut off both ends, prepare it and put it in the pot and then in the oven". "Why do you cut off the ends?" the daughter asked. Baffled, the mother offered, "That's how my mother did it and I learned it from her!"
> Her daughter's inquiry made the mother think more about the pot roast preparation.
> 
> When she next visited her mother in the nursing home, she asked, "Mom, how do you cook a pot roast?" The mother slowly answered, thinking between sentences. "Well, you prepare it with spices, cut off both ends and put it in the pot". The mother asked, "But why do you cut off the ends?" The grandmother's eyes sparkled as she remembered. "Well, the roasts were always bigger than the pot that we had back then. I had to cut off the ends to fit it into the pot that I owned"


We do it this way because we've always done it this way.

-DallanC


----------



## Cooky

Here's an especially nice crimp I accomplished a couple years ago.


----------



## Critter

Cooky said:


> Here's an especially nice crimp I accomplished a couple years ago.
> 
> View attachment 103370


I see that you have the same crimping die that I have.


----------



## DallanC

Cooky said:


> Here's an especially nice crimp I accomplished a couple years ago.


LOL... I did a few of those last spring. Only ever had it happen with 223's

-DallanC


----------



## wyogoob

*RCBS seater dies are PIA*



Cooky said:


> Here's an especially nice crimp I accomplished a couple years ago.
> 
> View attachment 103370


Is that bad?

If you turn the cartridge sideways in the barrel you can shoot into a stiff wind better.

.


----------



## KineKilla

wyogoob said:


> As far as I know Nosler doesn't offer Accubond bullets with a cannelure over the counter. I'm thinking as many rifle ammo crimping fans as there are here Nosler could give us a UWN Special rate.
> 
> I'm in for 6.5s.
> 
> .


I'm in for .284 and .277 's


----------



## KineKilla

Cooky said:


> Here's an especially nice crimp I accomplished a couple years ago.
> 
> View attachment 103370


Had this happen to me this year as well. Wasn't from crimping, it was from excessive neck tension or insufficient chamfer inside my case neck and happened while seating the bullet.

I switched to the VLD Chamfer tool and now the bullets slide right in!


----------



## LostLouisianian

wyogoob said:


> Is that bad?
> 
> If you turn the cartridge sideways in the barrel you can shoot into a stiff wind better.
> 
> .


That's a great looking reload in fact all of mine look like that


----------



## 35whelen

I bought some cannelured ab off the shootersproshop factory seconds site.... Don't ever look at that site and if you do I have first dibs on all .338,.358 and .375 bullets


----------



## wyogoob

Al Hansen said to add this to the poll:

"I always crimp bullets that are used in semi-automatics"


----------



## Al Hansen

wyogoob said:


> Al Hansen said to add this to the poll:
> 
> "I always crimp bullets that are used in semi-automatics"


Yup. I'll do it if I ever get another rattle gun. Thanks Goob.


----------



## wyogoob

*Be careful*



Al Hansen said:


> Yup. I'll do it if I ever get another rattle gun. Thanks Goob.


:smile:

Love ya man, glad yer OK.

.


----------



## wyogoob

I looked at some factory 45/70 ammo today and noticed it had a taper crimp. I always used a (heavy) roll crimp on a 45-70. 

What type of crimp do you use on a 45-70?

.


----------



## wyogoob

*All Nosler factory ammo is crimped*



wyogoob said:


> From Nosler's Customer Service Coordinator:
> 
> 
> All of the OEM ammunition uses a factory crimp. This is a process that is used to meet the needs of Factory loaded ammunition and specifications.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> 
> .


bump

.


----------



## wyogoob

*Karl's on it!*



Karl said:


> You don't need a cannelure in order to crimp.
> 
> The crimping die presses the rim into the bullet nicely.


That is correct. Note that Lee Precision pushes for crimping non-cannelured bullets with their Factory Crimp die. If you try it I recommend pulling the first bullet after crimping and see how deep the crimp groove is. Every model of bullet will be a little different dependent on the thickness of the jacket, hardness of the copper jacket and the hardness of the lead. On thin-jacketed projectiles you may not like the depth of the groove your crimp made.

And it goes without saying a lot of the long distance shooters don't want any kind of groove on the bullet surface.

.


----------



## wyogoob

*The Reloading Rule of 96*

Roll crimping is easy. Do it when you seat the bullet. No lame extra steps. We're making bullets, not dry flies for crying out loud.

A bit of advice. Use the Reloading Rule of 96. If yer gonna roll crimp, reload 96 rounds at a time. You'll need 100 brass to get 96 rounds if yer roll crimping. uh....and I've never known a box of 100 primers to have more than 96 in it anyway.

:smile:


----------



## wyogoob

*AltReloading*



wyogoob said:


> Roll crimping is easy. Do it when you seat the bullet. No lame extra steps. We're making bullets, not dry flies for crying out loud.
> 
> A bit of advice. Use the Reloading Rule of 96. If yer gonna roll crimp, reload 96 rounds at a time. You'll need 100 brass to get 96 rounds if yer roll crimping. uh....and I've never known a box of 100 primers to have more than 96 in it anyway.
> 
> :smile:


OK, I gotta apologize. I forgot, no one crimps out here....or maybe it's my delivery - anyway let's analyze my poor attempt at humor in the post above:

1) "You'll need 100 brass to get 96 rounds if you roll crimp" = the shoulders on 4 rounds will be buckled.

2) "...a box of 100 primers to have any more than 96..." = reloading dudes drop primers on the floor and never find them.

Good grief, I'm telling ya, crimping is a hoot.



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## wyogoob

Speaking of blowing a gun to Smithereens, remember this fiasco?




With the help of a lot of knowledgeable UWN members I troubleshooted this "event" for two years. The best thing I could come up with was a leaded barrel, a slight constriction 4" to 6" from the breech. But why did it only happen to certain cartridges? I normally don't crimp for bolt action rifles. Was it a difference in neck tension? More neck tension, better seal, more back pressure?



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## wyogoob

I tried to take some pictures of some .270 Win crimps but gave it up.

This is the best I could do. Left to right; Lee Factory Crimp (collet), RCBS roll crimp (seater die), Remington factory crimp on Core-Lokt ammo, and an Accubond without a crimp:




I crimp round nose bullets that are used in pumps and semi-auto rifles, especially cast bullets. Cast bullets don't always slide up the loading ramp as well as jacketed bullets do. The 140 grain Accubonds are 0.015" off the lands in a bolt action rifle and won't cycle, or fit?, in the pumps and semi-autos.


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## wyogoob

*crimp die manufacturers are backed up*

Geeze, looks like this thread, and lame copies of this thread, are creating quite a stir.

It appears there's a run on crimp dies from shooters across the West. Now it takes Lee Precision 6 to 8 weeks to have a custom Factory Crimp Die made.

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## wyogoob

Roll crimping may not be as consistent as crimping with a collet-type crimp die. When roll crimping it's important that the cases are trimmed to the same length. With a factory crimp die the cases can be different lengths To a point of course).

Here's some tips for load-to-load consistency using a Lee Factory Crimp Die:

> Measure the case mouth before and after crimping to set the amount of crimp. A 0.002" pinch is a light crimp, 0.004" is heavy. 
> Adjusting the petals on the die until they just close when running the die up will normally produce a heavy crimp.
> Cut a thin strip of printer paper (normal 20# weight) and insert it between the die petals. Adjust the die until the petals just grab the paper. That's about a 0.002" pinch, a light crimp.

Curious, I randomly grabbed a box of .223 factory Remington ammo and measured the crimps. The "liability" crimps on those were anywhere from 0.0005" to 0.002". I don't know if that's good or bad, so I just grabbed an arm load of factory green n yellows and set out to measure the crimps on a bunch of them.


First, they're not all that easy to measure. Second, I could back off on the de-burring of the case mouth on some of them. :-?

Taking an average of 5 crimp depth measurements on factory ammo of each caliber here's what I got:
.223 0.002" inconsistent
.243 0.002" 
6.5 Remington Mag 0.002"
.270 0.002"
7mm-08 0.002"
35 Whelen 0.001"
300 Win Mag 0.0015" inconsistent
338 RUM 0.004" very consistent

Note: Some of the ammo tested maybe over 25 years old, 6.5 Remington for example. The crimp depths on the older ammo was more consistent than the those on the newer ammo.

Then I checked some of my reloads with Lee Factory Die crimps. Most were around 0.002". Some .308s and 35 Rems reloaded 30 yrs ago were pushing 0.004". I pulled a bullet on one of my 250 Savage reloads that had a 0.004" deep crimp to see if the jacket underneath was damaged and it was fine; no bulging of the projectile as measured with calipers.

Well, there goes 2 hours I'll never get back.

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## wyogoob

Here's some crimped 308s that cycle well in both the Rem R25 modular and Rem 740 semi-autos as well as any bolt action rifle. They are crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die, a little heavy perhaps. The amount of crimp is very consistent even though the brass may not be trimmed to the exact same length (4th from left is long).


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## ZEKESMAN

wyogoob said:


> Roll crimping may not be as consistent as crimping with a collet-type crimp die. When roll crimping it's important that the cases are trimmed to the same length. With a factory crimp die the cases can be different lengths To a point of course).
> 
> Here's some tips for load-to-load consistency using a Lee Factory Crimp Die:
> 
> > Measure the case mouth before and after crimping to set the amount of crimp. A 0.002" pinch is a light crimp, 0.004" is heavy.
> > Adjusting the petals on the die until they just close when running the die up will normally produce a heavy crimp.
> > Cut a thin strip of printer paper (normal 20# weight) and insert it between the die petals. Adjust the die until the petals just grab the paper. That's about a 0.002" pinch, a light crimp.
> 
> Curious, I randomly grabbed a box of .223 factory Remington ammo and measured the crimps. The "liability" crimps on those were anywhere from 0.0005" to 0.002". I don't know if that's good or bad, so I just grabbed an arm load of factory green n yellows and set out to measure the crimps on a bunch of them.
> 
> 
> First, they're not all that easy to measure. Second, I could back off on the de-burring of the case mouth on some of them. :-?
> 
> Taking an average of 5 crimp depth measurements on factory ammo of each caliber here's what I got:
> .223 0.002" inconsistent
> .243 0.002"
> 6.5 Remington Mag 0.002"
> .270 0.002"
> 7mm-08 0.002"
> 35 Whelen 0.001"
> 300 Win Mag 0.0015" inconsistent
> 338 RUM 0.004" very consistent
> 
> Note: Some of the ammo tested maybe over 25 years old, 6.5 Remington for example. The crimp depths on the older ammo was more consistent than the those on the newer ammo.
> 
> Then I checked some of my reloads with Lee Factory Die crimps. Most were around 0.002". Some .308s and 35 Rems reloaded 30 yrs ago were pushing 0.004". I pulled a bullet on one of my 250 Savage reloads that had a 0.004" deep crimp to see if the jacket underneath was damaged and it was fine; no bulging of the projectile as measured with calipers.
> 
> Well, there goes 2 hours I'll never get back.
> 
> .


Goob I didn't know you were a real manly man and shot a 338 RUM. We are not worthy


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## wyogoob

*35 Remington*

I just ran these 35 Remingtons with 200 grain FTXs:


From left to right:
1) Setting up the Lee Factory Crimp Die (LFC)1/2 turn in. Not much of a crimp yet.
2) Die turned all the way in until petals are tight. Pretty heavy crimp.
3 & 4) Light LFC crimp
5) An RCBS roll crimp for comparison. Medium crimp in my opinion.

The venerable .35 Remington is used in Remington's old recoil-operated semi-auto models 8 and 81, and in Rem pump models 141, 6, 760, and 7600 among others. The Rem 141 is a tubular magazine rifle. There's a considerable amount of recoil and I always crimp for the 141 in a .35.

If you like old firearms you gotta love the 8 and 81 semi-autos. They were used by the FBI, Texas Rangers, other law enforcement officers and prison guards. If you ever loaded and emptied a 15-round box of .35 Rem out of an old model 8 you would appreciate a hearty crimp.

I'm learning how to take close-up pictures with my smart phone. 

It's true, I'm not making this up. I have a smart phone.

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## wyogoob

*Brass needs to be same length for roll crimp*

To make consistent roll crimps it's important that each brass be trimmed to the exact length.

The brass on the left is trimmed short so it didn't get much of a crimp. The brass on the right is OK, it's what I like for .35 rem 250 grain round nose bullet.



That picture is not too bad.

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## wyogoob

*nobody's doing the big guns anymore*



ZEKESMAN said:


> Goob I didn't know you were a real manly man and shot a 338 RUM. We are not worthy


Thanks, I think. It's a flipping cannon, sort of a 340 Weatherby with a different shoulder.

Like my 460 S&W; if you miss an elk with the 338 RUM the concussion will kill it.

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## wyogoob

35 Remington 147 grain cast - Roll crimps on plinking loads for the Model 8 & Model 81 autoloaders:


I would call these heavy crimps:


OK, OK, these pics are a little out of focus. I'll work on it.

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## KineKilla

Have you had a chance to chronograph any of the crimped vs. un-crimped loads to see how the variances change?

I know you mentioned your eyesight, but how about the POI shift any change there?

I'm really trying to see if crimping would make any beneficial difference in a rifle that already shoots un-crimped reloads very well, or in a rifle where finding the right load has proven difficult...you know the type...the one that seems to shoot a load combination 1/2" one day then 1.5" the next. 

Maybe crimping would add an additional layer of consistency to it?


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## DallanC

wyogoob said:


> OK, OK, these pics are a little out of focus. I'll work on it.
> 
> .


AvE on youtube can give you some pointers (roflmao!)










-DallanC


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## wyogoob

KineKilla said:


> Have you had a chance to chronograph any of the crimped vs. un-crimped loads to see how the variances change?
> Only shot a few 250 Savage and then the weather and all the snow got me. The few I compared tightened up the fps deviation some (I think 7fps) and I gained an average of 20 fps on the loads. I've chronographed less than 25 shots, so I'm not making any judgements just yet. Like I said before - I don't crimp for bolt actions. I'm doing out of curiosity more than anything. I have baselines on .308s, 6.5 Rem Mags, 30-06s, 256 Newton and another caliber, (have to look it up), bolt action tests of course.
> 
> I know you mentioned your eyesight, but how about the POI shift any change there?
> Sadly I don't think I'm going to be able to run that comparison. Eyesight has deteriorated since I ran the baselines.
> 
> I'm really trying to see if crimping would make any beneficial difference in a rifle that already shoots un-crimped reloads very well, or in a rifle where finding the right load has proven difficult...you know the type...the one that seems to shoot a load combination 1/2" one day then 1.5" the next.
> Me too, and with rifles that were shooting like were lazers when I put them away the closet a number of years ago. I'm blaming it on eyesight problems.
> 
> Maybe crimping would add an additional layer of consistency to it? yeah, maybe


see red


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## wyogoob

*22 rimfire crimps are heavy*

Kind of an interesting picture I found in my files. Don't know where it came from or what brand the ammo is:


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## wyogoob

*I've jammed a few of them babies, let me tell ya.*



wyogoob said:


> Kind of an interesting picture I found in my files. Don't know where it came from or what brand the ammo is:


Boy, looking back at all the .22 bullets I've jammed in .22 pump rifles and semi-auto pistols I'm glad they're crimped.

Uh, anyone know what the crimp in the middle of the case is for?

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## wyogoob

*256 Newton crimped vs uncrimped*

I took my new used 100-year old .256 Newton Model 1916 rifle to the range yesterday. Put a new front sight on the relic (.450) tall vs .375 tall).

Shot 120 grain Sierra Pro Hunters with and without a crimp; 150 yards at clay pigeons. Rounds had the same powder charge, same primer, and same OAL. The crimped rounds missed the clay pigeons with the same consistancy as the uncrimped rounds.

I put the cannelure groove in the bullets by hand with a CH4D cannelure tool.

Its true, I'm not making this up, we have a range in Evanston.

top of da page
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## wyogoob




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## KineKilla

That my friend....


Is insane.


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## wyogoob

*put the cannelure anywhere*



KineKilla said:


> That my friend....
> 
> Is insane.


CH4D Cannelure Tool

Easily adjustable for location of the cannelure and it's depth (0.005" is recommended)




Hold down on the black knob and then turn handle.

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## wyogoob

Ever wondered why cannelures are kinda in a weird place or there was more than one on some bullets?

Answer: Many bullets have un-bonded jackets and the cannelure circumferentially secures the jacket to the lead core providing a "stop" for the mushrooming forward part of the projectile like on these 256 Newton bullets from the 30s:


The homemade cannelure on the bottom bullet in this picture is 0.005" deep:


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## wyogoob

*So much for neck tension!*

So I get another First Model Newton rifle in 256 Newton. By the time I pick it up there's not much daylight left. I grab a pocket full of 256 neck-sized bullets and go out in the country to shoot the new gun. Neck-sized bullets are all I have loaded.

1st shell loads and shoots OK.

2nd shell hangs up in the chamber and the bolt won't roll shut. I force the bolt back and the cartridge is stuck in the chamber. dangit

At home I take a 3/16" dia. brass rod and drop it in the barrel.....twice...but the shell doesn't come out. A slight tap with a small ball pein hammer and the cartridge finally falls out:


Yikes, the bullet is down on top of the powder charge! So much for neck tension. Odd, I've tapped on them harder and the bullet has stayed put. I should use crimped bullets on a "new" relic firearm, I thought.

A month later:
I put a new leather butt stock sleeve, with shell loops, on my first 256 Newton. It looks cool and covers up the end of the stock that's busted and wrapped together with electrical tape. :neutral:


So I go to push the shells out of the shell loops, point first, and two of the bullets push into the case. Good grief, so much for neck tension! I check all 20 of the reloads and the bullets in 4 of them can be pushed into the case with moderate effort.


Reloads were all the same once-fired brass, same projectile, same trim length, and all neck sized with a (very expensive) RCBS 256 Newton neck sizer die.

Hmmm, that might explain this:


Lately, I've had a little trouble with my Chargemaster throwing too much powder so I thought I might have over charged the round in the picture below by a couple grains. Now I'm not so sure. I could have pushed the bullet in the case when running the bolt.


That's all I know. It's like 2:00 am. I just got up to pee.

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