# Utah still has a healthy lion population



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

It looks like there is quite a few lions in many parts of the state regardless of what Kevin D, Cold track, and Goofy Elk will tell you.

The Beaver unit opened on 3/07/2011 and it's already overharvested the quota.* The quota was 3 lions and in two days then 8 lions were killed.* The weekend didn't even hit yet before they slammed them down.

Panguitch also opened on 3/7/2011 and the quota was 3 lions and 4 lions were harvested.

Goofy also said that not many lions on the Nebo, but the season opened on 3/7/2011 and 3 out of 4 lions have been killed. Any bets number 4 lion will be killed this weekend?

Central Mountains, Southeast Manti opened 3/7/2011 The quota is 4 lions and 3 lions have been killed so far.

This tells me that we still have a pretty healthy lion population.

*28* lions killed in 3 days

o-|| o-||


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## Yahtahay (Jul 3, 2008)

Is it really any wonder why most here would rather **** you silly than agree with what you say? Whether Goofy, Kevin D or Cold Track are right or wrong your pompous [email protected] attitude is down right ridiculous! Most of us on this board are here as sportsmen with opinions but for some reason your purpose here is to inject your [email protected] in all of our faces with a smile! The stats you posted speak loud and clear so why not just shut your trap and end it there!? Why the mods even allowed you back on here to start BS again is beyond me! Your tagline is very fitting as well, "They say you can judge someone by the friends they keep. That may be true, but I think you can also judge someone by their enemies." Need I say more?!


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## broncbuster (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with coyoteslayer.
The only one with the attitude here is Yahtahay.
There are to many lions and to get our deer populations up something needs to be done about some of them. And also coyotes need thinning out.
Just my two cents.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Yahtahay said:


> Is it really any wonder why most here would rather **** you silly than agree with what you say? Whether Goofy, Kevin D or Cold Track are right or wrong your pompous [email protected] attitude is down right ridiculous! Most of us on this board are here as sportsmen with opinions but for some reason your purpose here is to inject your [email protected] in all of our faces with a smile! The stats you posted speak loud and clear so why not just shut your trap and end it there!? Why the mods even allowed you back on here to start BS again is beyond me! Your tagline is very fitting as well, "They say you can judge someone by the friends they keep. That may be true, but I think you can also judge someone by their enemies." Need I say more?!


oops I stuck a nerve with someone. Are you mad because you were hoping to kill a lion on one of these units and now it's closed???? I was just stating the facts that the lion population isn't really that low. It's low comparable to the 90's, but there is still a lot of lions out there. Houndsmen keep saying that it's hard to cut a track and I just don't buy it.

I hope you're going to recover Yahtahay.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Trolling today are we coyoteslayer??

Look, whether there are too many lions or not is an opinion question, to which we each have our own.

Whether the cougar population in the state is growing or declining is a scientiffic question that can be answered using scientiffically gathered data. In this, every indication is that there are *LESS* lions than there were say 10 years ago.

Now, using the logic that just because 28 lions are killed can one conclude there is a healthy cougar population?? No more so than one could conclude that because buffalo hunters managed to kill 10,000 buffalo in one day in 1880 that therefore there must be a healthy buffalo population! Your logic is flawed coyoteslayer, surely you can see that.

So my reaction is "so what??" One can't logically make the conclusion that the lion population is healthy or not based just on that evidence.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

If only 2 lions had been killed in these hunts what conclusion would you try to make?

I doubt the lion population is comparable to the 90s. IMO that still doesn't tell me that its not higher than I would want for a deer recovery. If the deer herd is at a modern day low than I would figure so would the predator population. What ever the number (I will leave that to the biologist) we should formulate a sustainable plan to keep predators populations healthy and still give prey an opportunity to thrive. And if prey in this case deer populations climb above range capacity increase hunter opportunity to get back under capacity.

As hunters we should only harvest the *surplus*. Meaning after we figure the net gain of a deer herd annually. Calculate what predators, roads, weather takes. You will be left with a number that the human can harvest without a dramatic decline in population. The surplus.

Out of all the factors deer die from only predators and hunter harvest are practical to control. I say limit predation before you limit hunter harvest. Since we are the ones paying for the whole management process.


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## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

Hey slayer, what about all the other units that are still open and will remain open the whole season. Just because 3 units closed doesn't give me the impression that we have a healthy lion population. I agree with yahtahay on, why don't you let the stats speak and shut your mouth. It really is too bad the admins don't ban you forever. All you wanna do is stir the pot any chance you get. On any respectable board out there you would have been banned along time ago.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Some areas have been opened back up because remember they increased the lion tags on a few areas just now to help out the deer herds. I'm not saying the whole state has a lot of lions, but when Kevin D, and Goofy keep saying we don't have a lot of lions and 28 lions can be killed before the weekend even starts on these units that just opened up then I call BS.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Furthermore these harvest objective units that just opened on 3/07/2011 should have been opened up a lot earlier in the year when we had prime snow conditions. 

Even the guy from Red Creek outfitters from the Tony Abbott show agreed that we still have a very healthy lion population in this state.

But of course other houndsmen will tell you different because they want more cats to chase. Which is understandable but at what cost to our deer herds?


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

How come you keep trying to drag me back into to this coyoteslayer??

Okay, I'll try again. Just because I have no trouble harvesting a mature buck every year on public land, can I conclude that therefore we have a healthy mule deer population on the Cache unit?? Why can't I conclude that?? It is true, and it is the same logic you are using to determine the state of the lion population. So why would I be in error concluding that because I'm killing deer, the deer population must be doing just fine?? You boys tell me....... :O•-:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Okay, I'll try again. Just because I have no trouble harvesting a mature buck every year on public land, can I conclude that therefore we have a healthy mule deer population on the Cache unit?? Why can't I conclude that?? It is true, and it is the same logic you are using to determine the state of the lion population. So why would I be in error concluding that because I'm killing deer, the deer population must be doing just fine?? You boys tell me.......


Because you are good at what you do just like Many houndsmen are good at what they do and they have no problem killing lions despite a lot of houndsmen saying the lion population is very low.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Now, now, CS, I'm just pointing out the flaw in your logic, no reason to get all huffy. If you are going to conclude that because 28 lions were killed therefore the lion poulation is healthy, you should at least be honest and apply that same logic to the deer herd as well. At least you'd be consistant.

Fact is coyoteslayer, we both know that kind of logic doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, there are too many other factors that are being overlooked to draw our conclusions. In the end, it truly proves nothing.


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## Yahtahay (Jul 3, 2008)

> oops I stuck a nerve with someone. Are you mad because you were hoping to kill a lion on one of these units and now it's closed???? I was just stating the facts that the lion population isn't really that low. It's low comparable to the 90's, but there is still a lot of lions out there. Houndsmen keep saying that it's hard to cut a track and I just don't buy it.
> 
> I hope you're going to recover Yahtahay.


Yes you did strike a nerve and this isn't the first time! And no, I'm not hunting lions, I wish I was but I never have, maybe someday I will, dunno. And my apologies for coming off the way I did, it certainly is not in my character to do such but I think it's apprehensible that you continue to try and divide and conquer hunters when your real pursuit should be to unite hunters and know that EVERYONE has an opinion, right or wrong. You shouldn't be on here singling out people which is just what I draw offense to. When you come on here pointing fingers and finishing it off with an emoticon eating popcorn it tells me you have one thought....controversy! WHY?! State your stats, leave it be and let others draw their own conclusion whether your right or wrong. This board is HEALTHY and the last thing it needs is readers/members leaving because members want to stir up controversy.

Last but not least, I have agreed with alot of what you have said at times, right or wrong, but please stop with the bait posts and finger pointing, it really is not conducive to what this board is about!


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## Size Matters (Dec 22, 2007)

I agree with CS And BB we do need to thin out the predator populations if you think about all of the fawns that are killed they make a big impact. 8)


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## [email protected] (Feb 12, 2010)

Here are a few points to ponder. First, if your adult deer herd numbers are stabilized as they are on most areas of the state then maybe the lions may not be the problem. Maybe we have reached a sustainable cat population. Secondly, If we want to increase deer numbers we have to increase the fawn survival. Hard to do with a unhunted coyote population. Sure there is a few coyote hunters on here but I am talking about the likes of ADC back years ago when they still used cyanide guns. Ponder this, Early 90's bad winter kill, We raise the number of lion tags to try and balance it back out. Its about this era ADC quits using cyanide. Now we have this massive coyote population and we keep blaming the cat. Modern coyote hunter goes out every weekend, drives up a couple roads, calls, shoots misses, teaches the dog to never come to the road and he lives happy ever after.
Thirdly, The lion population is managed by numbers. So how many harvested lions were actually taken in the unit claimed?
There is just to many variables in managing wildlife and we are all still learning, including the biologist.
My last thought, how many donated in the biggame application for the deer herd?
So I close with one more thought, If Utah has such a healthy lion population why haven't all you that think this run right out and book a lion hunt? The thought of a 80 lb female on your wall no bigger than your house cat isn't considered a trophy. Thats what my paying clients say!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Here are a few points to ponder. First, if your adult deer herd numbers are stabilized as they are on most areas of the state then maybe the lions may not be the problem. Maybe we have reached a sustainable cat population. Secondly, If we want to increase deer numbers we have to increase the fawn survival. Hard to do with a unhunted coyote population. Sure there is a few coyote hunters on here but I am talking about the likes of ADC back years ago when they still used cyanide guns. Ponder this, Early 90's bad winter kill, We raise the number of lion tags to try and balance it back out. Its about this era ADC quits using cyanide. Now we have this massive coyote population and we keep blaming the cat. Modern coyote hunter goes out every weekend, drives up a couple roads, calls, shoots misses, teaches the dog to never come to the road and he lives happy ever after.
> Thirdly, The lion population is managed by numbers. So how many harvested lions were actually taken in the unit claimed?
> There is just to many variables in managing wildlife and we are all still learning, including the biologist.
> My last thought, how many donated in the biggame application for the deer herd?
> So I close with one more thought, If Utah has such a healthy lion population why haven't all you that think this run right out and book a lion hunt? The thought of a 80 lb female on your wall no bigger than your house cat isn't considered a trophy. Thats what my paying clients say!


Excellent post. My boss talked to a buddy of his that runs a 10,000 acre CWMU. The DWR came out with helicopters and killed 49 dogs in two days. I know people are judgmental of the amount DWR spends on coyote control, but I think it is going to good use. This is my personal opinion. It would take many hunters a couple years to kill that many dogs, now I am not saying we shouldn't hunt coyotes by any means, but we need them to be killing them like they did the other day, that will put an impact on them. Also, correct me if I am wrong, aren't they breeding now? Good time to get them.


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