# How much magnification is needed for accuracy?



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

My normal setup is a Savage model 16 in 300WSM with a Nikon Monarch 5-20 zoom. I have it dialed in under .5 moa within a matter of weeks of buying it and love it is by far the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. So, when I bought a rifle for my son to start with next year I got the mini me version with the youth model 11 in 7mm-08 with the Nikon Prostaff 3-9 zoom. 
I have had it to the range about three times now and I am not terribly impressed with the performance in only having one shot pattern even approaching 1 MOA. There certainly are numerous factors going on here, this is clearly not the same set up as my rifle as the trigger is not as light and it does not have the accustock. My question is this, just how accurate have you been able to achieve with only a 9 power zoom? My vision is fine, but as I am accustomed to 20 zoom, the 9 zoom leaves me wondering at which point in the bullseye I was aiming. 
Clearly, this set up is fine for my son. Should I get a smaller dot on the target or what works best to eliminate this scope factor in the complicated accuracy equation? I normally shoot at a target that has the 4 square inch orange target.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

who is shooting the rifle? if you are why not let your son shoot it, maybe he can shoot it better than you. an old saying is only the person shooting the rifle can sight it in for him self.


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## royta (Sep 26, 2007)

It can be done with the lesser power scopes. There's two ways to go about it. With round bulls, instead of focusing on where you are in the bullseye, you need to split the bullseye into quarters. With sight in bulls like below, I make sure each "hair" is covering each bullseye line. I don't even concentrate on the center, because I know of each hair is splitting the line, then it is centered automatically. That's what I do with the low powered scopes and it seems to work well.

Here are a couple 100 yard groups from my dad's 1955 Winchester Model 70 Featherweight 30-06, and it's only topped with an old Leupold Vari-X2 2-7 power. I was setting the rifle up for my 13 year old to use this deer season.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

I have shot 1/2 MOA groups with a 3-9x scope on 9x plenty often.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Higher magnification in a scope really isn't needed but a accurate rifle. Granted it you have 20 power scope you are going to be able to see where you want the bullet to go a lot better but if the rifle isn't capable of putting it there then the scope will not help.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> My normal setup is a Savage model 16 in 300WSM with a Nikon Monarch 5-20 zoom. I have it dialed in under .5 moa within a matter of weeks of buying it and love it is by far the most accurate rifle I have ever owned. So, when I bought a rifle for my son to start with next year I got the mini me version with the youth model 11 in 7mm-08 with the Nikon Prostaff 3-9 zoom.
> I have had it to the range about three times now and I am not terribly impressed with the performance in only having one shot pattern even approaching 1 MOA. There certainly are numerous factors going on here, this is clearly not the same set up as my rifle as the trigger is not as light and it does not have the accustock. My question is this, just how accurate have you been able to achieve with only a 9 power zoom? My vision is fine, but as I am accustomed to 20 zoom, the 9 zoom leaves me wondering at which point in the bullseye I was aiming.
> Clearly, this set up is fine for my son. Should I get a smaller dot on the target or what works best to eliminate this scope factor in the complicated accuracy equation? I normally shoot at a target that has the 4 square inch orange target.


I had a savage 7mm-08 and couldn't get 1moa groups until I switched to lighter bullets. Savage has too much twist in their factory 7mm-08 barrels, mine would not shoot the 140g bullets well. When I dropped down to the 120g, it did a lot better. For my 7mm-08, the Sierra 120g pro hunter bullet did the best, I ended up settling on .75moa groups but that is not too bad for a factory rifle. I've had other factory savages that got down to .5moa, but most are not that good.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I like to have a 4-12 or so on my rifles. My Sendero 7mm had a 4-16 for longer shots. A lot can depend on the thickness of the reticle itself. I had a Rem 700 SPS Tactical in .308 and was able to get 3 shots touching at 100 yards with a 3-9 power Buckmaster scope. It's doable with low power scopes. What's the twist in your sons rifle?


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Twist is 9.5". I was shooting Ballistic Tip 120 and Barnes TTSX 120 with similar results; I am going to try the Accubond 140's next go round. 
My son didn't go yesterday as he had something going on, but I was going to the range for a church activity, he normally does shoot it; I was just trying to narrow down the best load.
I think using a different target may help in this quest also. Thanks for the input guys!


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

What I have seen with my daughter is the higher the power the more unstable she is with the scope especially in hunting conditions. That being said she can see her target better and make a more precise shot on that target (providing she is stable). I have her with a 4-16x44 now but never turn it up more than 14x which is what she shot the 3/4" 200 yard group I posted a while back with.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> Twist is 9.5". I was shooting Ballistic Tip 120 and Barnes TTSX 120 with similar results; I am going to try the Accubond 140's next go round.
> My son didn't go yesterday as he had something going on, but I was going to the range for a church activity, he normally does shoot it; I was just trying to narrow down the best load.
> I think using a different target may help in this quest also. Thanks for the input guys!


I started with the 140g accubonds, I shot darn near 100 bullets before deciding they weren't going to work. I hope they do better for you. Another option is to buy an aftermarket barrel for your savage, I would bet with a shilen or krieger barrel, you'd be sub .5moa on your first group. I have the headspace gages, barrel vice, and a wrench for the 7mm-08 you could borrow if you want to go this route. Just shoot me a PM.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

My boys nearly identical 7mm08, 1MOA:

140grn Accubond,
H4350, 48grns
COL 2.845 (this is over the official spec! Check your freebore)
WLR Primer


-DallanC


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Huge, feel free to come borrow my daughters .308 and I can give ya 10-15 rounds of the ammo my daughter shoots for your boy to shoot. If he groups it similar to my daughter than you know its the gun/scope set up. If he shoots it the same as he does his gun, than you know its just a matter of trigger time and the group will tighten up I'm sure.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

toasty said:


> I started with the 140g accubonds, I shot darn near 100 bullets before deciding they weren't going to work. I hope they do better for you. Another option is to buy an aftermarket barrel for your savage, I would bet with a shilen or krieger barrel, you'd be sub .5moa on your first group. I have the headspace gages, barrel vice, and a wrench for the 7mm-08 you could borrow if you want to go this route. Just shoot me a PM.


Very nice offer of you Toasty! That is generous of you!
As it turns out...I got a little email last night from Cabela's.....well, you know the rest of the story....I am kind of embarrassed on how much I have spent now, but I bought the same Monarch I have on my scope 5-20x44. I thought I got a really good deal on mine and this one was $100 less...
I still can't reasonably expect to be at .5 MOA, but I think this will get me a lot closer to 1 MOA. The scope is something that can be used for a lifetime, anyone looking for a really nice Prostaff 3-9x40? See, I am still trying to justify this..
How much does an aftermarket barrel go for? I have not ever tinkered with that stuff. Thanks again for the help guys!


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> Very nice offer of you Toasty! That is generous of you!
> As it turns out...I got a little email last night from Cabela's.....well, you know the rest of the story....I am kind of embarrassed on how much I have spent now, but I bought the same Monarch I have on my scope 5-20x44. I thought I got a really good deal on mine and this one was $100 less...
> I still can't reasonably expect to be at .5 MOA, but I think this will get me a lot closer to 1 MOA. The scope is something that can be used for a lifetime, anyone looking for a really nice Prostaff 3-9x40? See, I am still trying to justify this..
> How much does an aftermarket barrel go for? I have not ever tinkered with that stuff. Thanks again for the help guys!


You can get a shilen for around $280 from northland shooter supply or thebarrelman.com. The Criterion (kreiger savage prefits) are closer to $300. There are several other barrel makers that range from $100 to $500, but I don't have much experience with them. Good luck with the new scope.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Before looking at a new barrel, I'd consider trying to adjust the trigger a bit lower (assuming it has the accutrigger) and possibly bedding the action. Also, that rifle might like to try some different ammo. Were you shooting factory or handloads? I was extremely disappointed with my Sendero for a while - it wouldn't shoot factory ammo very well at all. Switched to handloads with a 162 Amax and it still took some fine tuning, but now I can put three shot in the same hole at 100. I've had a few rifles where I've found the perfect load on my first try, but this one took me a bit (powder charge and then seating depth). 

I'd play around with the rifle a bit with either some gunsmithing or different loads before going the route of a new barrel. 1/2 MOA is definitely doable, but might be a bit to expect from a factory youth rifle.

Either way, have fun with it! It'd be boring if things always worked out the first try! Those Monarchs are great scopes for the money. Let us know if the extra magnification helps at all.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

My question really is what is the intended purpose of the rifle? If it is a hunting rifle the 1" groups at 100 yards isn't that bad, take a look at the kill zone on a deer or elk and you will see what I mean. Even if it opens up to 3" at 200 yards you are still in the kill zone. 

Now if you plan on using the rifle for shooting parire dogs or gophers in the off season then I can see getting it under a MOA at 100 yards. You have to figure that some rifles are hunting rifles and some are just going to shoot better than others.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

It is the accutrigger, which I have manually adjusted to the minimum setting. All hand loads here, that is the fun of it; trying to find the right mix. What is odd is that on most patterns I would have two nearly touching holes and then one over an inch away, so I am not sure what is going on there. I can't yet eliminate the human element. 
The fun has now begun trying to crack the code, so we keep on trying. I am certainly not expecting 1/2 MOA, but I think 1 MOA should be very attainable.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Try shooting 5 or 10 round groups. If it shoots tight groups with a some random flyers (like your 2 touching and a flyer you mention above) it may be a bedding issue. Mess with the action screw torque and make sure the barrel channel is clear and big enough (the tupperware stock may whack the barrel sometimes and send one off to Jones's).


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

+-1 with cooky advise


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Make sure you are adjusting the parallax out of your scope. I had the same thing with one of my rifles, able to group 3-5 great but 2 flyers. Turned out I had parallax that I just didn't notice.


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