# Mary’s Lake dead (poached?) 6x6 Bull Elk



## bigA (Oct 19, 2021)

Came across this dead 6x6 Bull on Oct 10th, just north of Mary’s Lake by Joes Valley Reservoir. Contacted the DWR but by the time an officer arrived (17th) to check it out, the head was missing.














I’m not sure where they stand with the investigation but Please share this with your hunting friends and help us track down the antlers. Thanks


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

I doubt it was poached. Probably lost by a muzzy hunter… head was taken illegally however… unless the hunter recovered it themselves and didn’t report it and go through the correct steps to get it in possession legally. But we don’t need to jump straight to “poached” on every dead buck or bull we find in the hills this time of year


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

The head is there?


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

OriginalOscar said:


> The head is there?


Sounds like the dwr reported the head missing between the time the op took the picture and the time they made it to the site. At least that's how I read his post.


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## bigA (Oct 19, 2021)

The head is no longer there. It was but now it is gone. 

@MooseMeat - Why don’t we need to “jump” to poached? Don’t assume you have all of the information.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

bigA said:


> The head is no longer there. It was but now it is gone.
> 
> @MooseMeat - Why don’t we need to “jump” to poached? Don’t assume you have all of the information.


You mean kinda like how you are assuming you have all the information? 🙄

not everything is worst case scenario all the time. Im
Betting I’m closer to the actual truth in my assumptions than you are in your scenario… but that’s for the DWR to investigate and determine.

you’re probably most upset that now there is a 0% chance of getting the head for your own possession now.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

When hunts are going on there are quite a few animals that are not recovered by the hunter who shoots them. I know of a huge 6x6 bull that the hunter never recovered on a archery hunt down on the Southwest Desert one year. We found it by following the smell along with seeing the ravens having a feast along with the coyotes in the area. We contacted both the DWR and the person who shot it but a week later when we went back in the head was gone. It quite likely was found by someone hunting pinenuts in the area. The DWR officer along with the hunter were both pissed that the head was gone. 

But if you would of just came upon it you could suppose that it was poached but we knew the story behind it. A couple of years later I did find a poached 4x4 bull, how do I know that it was poached? There was a gut pile 20 yards away where the folks had cleaned a spike during the spike hunt. They got gun happy and dropped the 4x4 along with the spike.

One thing that you need to realize is that when a animal is wounded and isn't being pushed it will travel downhill towards water which most times brings them out into the open where they die from their wounds.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I found a 5x5 in the Uintas last year, pretty sure he was shot during archery. I posted it on here to see if anyone had shot it and simply couldn’t locate him. I got pushback a bit about it being illegal to take, I say, what someone does with the information I provide is on them. Besides, Utah’s law is stupid, I honestly don’t care even in the slightest if someone wants to lug a rotting deadhead.

personally, I leave Utah deadheads where I find them and bring sheds back for my dog.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Ray said:


> .
> 
> personally, I leave Utah deadheads where I find them and bring sheds back for my dog.


Seeing as that is what the law requires of you, good.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Ray said:


> Besides, Utah’s law is stupid, I honestly don’t care even in the slightest if someone wants to lug a rotting deadhead.


The law is there because of some knuckleheads that would gut shoot deer with 22lrs that would die in the area, then come spring they'd recover the heads.

-DallanC


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

DallanC said:


> The law is there because of some knuckleheads that would gut shoot deer with 22lrs that would die in the area, then come spring they'd recover the heads.
> 
> -DallanC


that’s pretty dang jacked up. They catch the guys?


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

johnnycake said:


> Seeing as that is what the law requires of you, good.


even if it wasn’t I’d still leave them, they don’t interest me much. The only reason I stated the obvious is because on the internet, if you don’t, it creates unnecessary arguments and longer replies to further clarify ones position. Which clearly didn’t help me any.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Ray said:


> even if it wasn’t I’d still leave them, they don’t interest me much. The only reason I stated the obvious is because on the internet, if you don’t, it creates unnecessary arguments and longer replies to further clarify ones position. Which clearly didn’t help me any.


There’s always someone on the internet looking to bust you on any little detail. Last week I got a call from a DWR officer that I know. Someone had reported me to the UTIP hotline for killing a cow elk with #4 steel waterfowl loads 🙄 the pic he saw was a cow elk in the bed of my truck with a stack of ducks and geese around it. They assumed that since I had killed the ducks and geese with a shotgun, that I had to have killed that elk with 1) a shotgun 2) steel shot for birds and 3) in a WMA for waterfowl. Now I dunno about anyone else, but I haven’t seen too many elk trotting down center dike at Farmington Bay in my time spent there. Ironically, that particular cow elk hunt was documented with the DWR and we had approval for that hunt to take place. The ducks and geese were bonus opportunities we found on our way home. I explained the story and all the details to the officer and that was the end of it.

we don’t always have to jump to the worst possible scenario/conclusions on everything. It seems to be human nature to do so, but rarely is it as bad as everyone secretly hopes it to be.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I thought it was only me and my brother that jumped to the worst possible scenarios?


Moose -- so, what did you shoot the cow with? Personally, I'm guessing that all that steel shot in your picture is just a cover. I'm pretty sure you're really shooting lead. Forget the DWR, I'm calling the Feds!!


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## bigA (Oct 19, 2021)

MooseMeat said:


> You mean kinda like how you are assuming you have all the information? 🙄
> 
> not everything is worst case scenario all the time. Im
> Betting I’m closer to the actual truth in my assumptions than you are in your scenario… but that’s for the DWR to investigate and determine.
> ...


Wow, thanks for your help. Without you we would’ve only assumed that it was poached. I had no idea that there were other hunts going on and that the elk could’ve been lost from another hunter. Sadly, I don’t have any DWR friends so my “scenario” is foolish and I shouldn’t have written “Poached?” In the thread.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

to be honest -- I suspected BigA from the beginning. He called it in, then grabbed the head and left. "honestly occifer, the head was still there when I left..."



(lol. I'm just pulling your chain)


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## jewbacca (Jan 27, 2020)

What is the big deal with taking animal heads? Especially for an animal you didn't kill?


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## Frank M (Jul 28, 2021)

This is always made into a bigger deal than it needs to be. Nothing goes to waste in the woods. Nothing.

Gut shooting a deer, and returning in the spring for the head is bad. I guess because we lost a good buck that could have been breeding? A lost hunting opportunity.

Meanwhile, we have millions of acres of public land, fenced and managed for private grazing “rights”. Do you think we’ve lost more than one opportunity here?

But yet we spend most of our time, as hunters, talking about “poaching”. It’s all part of the game to keep us divided, fellas.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

jewbacca said:


> What is the big deal with taking animal heads? Especially for an animal you didn't kill?





DallanC said:


> The law is there because of some knuckleheads that would gut shoot deer with 22lrs that would die in the area, then come spring they'd recover the heads.



Unfortunately, this is exactly the case.

Consider the picture at the top of this topic. Maybe an archery hunter is hunting his spike hunt in unit that also has LE any bull hunts. He comes across a bull that he legally cannot harvest. Maybe he arrows it, knowing he cannot legally tag it and take it home. But he knows where the dead-head is, and returns a couple months later to [surprisingly] find a dead-head. 

Like Dallan noted, this is exactly why the law is in place.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Jesus Christ Moose, from the sounds of it, that person was just trying to create problems for you. I’m not even sure how one would jump to so many crazy conclusions, clearly someone off their meds


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Seems like a lot of scenarios could have happened here. I mean, a squatch could have bailed out of the tree above it and snapped it's neck and taken the backstraps and tenderloins leaving the rest to the scavengers! 

I doubt that bull was poached. Very likely someone shot it / arrowed it, etc on an earlier hunt. We see a lot of long range heroes these days with all choice of weapons. Far too many game goes unrecovered. The beauty of the CWMU is that they don't allow you to keep hunting if blood is drawn, only the animal that was wounded. I know a lot of respectable hunters that live by this policy anyways but not all do. Very possible someone else found the carcass and walked out with the head in the dark. Especially if it was reasonably close to a road. 

Nobody will likely ever know.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I tend to think a wounded lost bull by the decomposition. But taking the dead head is definitely not legal. 

If the DWR can figure it out good on them.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Here is another same general area, wanton destruction of animal? Don't know the story,


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## 1trhall (Oct 18, 2017)

Dude, without grazing on public lands you couldn't afford to buy a steak or burger in this country and removing cattle wouldn't add enough big game to make up the difference.


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## 1trhall (Oct 18, 2017)

Unless the bears in that area carry Havalons now.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

1trhall said:


> Dude, without grazing on public lands you couldn't afford to buy a steak or burger in this country and removing cattle wouldn't add enough big game to make up the difference.


Prove it. Publicly grazed cattle are not the bulk (not even close) of cattle hitting the slaughter yards in the US. All types of publicly grazed livestock account for only 4% of the domestic supply. Economic considerations of livestock grazing on public lands in the United States of America

And the operation of the public grazing programs by USFS and BLM spends ~$3 to generate $1.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

All I know is this: the dead head rule was put into place because poachers (plural here not at all singular) were shooting animals and then retrieving them later as dead heads. That's why we have the law...and, with the amount of money antlers are worth these days, the practice could be rather profitable. So....go ahead say I am jumping to conclusions, but when I see an animal like the ones in the pics above, I suspect the worst.

BTW, johnnycake, the public grazing programs remind me of Milo Minderbinder's syndicate: the system that buys eggs for seven cents and sells them to the mess halls for five cents for a profit.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Regarding the original post. I found a dead bull a bit further north in that area back in 2018 during the general season deer muzzy hunt. I immediately assumed a poacher, or someone plugged it, but it wasn't the trophy they wanted and left it without punching their tag. This bull is missing half its rack, and this was during the muzzy LE elk hunt. So I called DWR, cop hiked all the way in and took a look. Turns out it was gored by another bull. He lost a fight during the rut. It happens. Unfortunately, since the elk in the original post obviously died awhile ago, unless you find an arrow in it, or obvious signs someone took the backstraps or quaters, it's probably impossible to tell.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Brookie said:


> View attachment 149805
> Here is another same general area, wanton destruction of animal? Don't know the story,


Yes that to me is wanton waste at minimum.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I know multiple people who have lost elk on that exact unit. One archer this year found his bull 2 weeks after the kill (roughly) and at least a week after the hunt ended. 

Chances are it was a lost animal. Taking the head is illegal - but maybe they called the division and cleared it? Who knows (no one which is the point lol).


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Assuming the worst and allowing the DWR to investigate is best practice in my opinion. If they find that poaching was not the case, great. But, if they do suspect poaching, maybe they can find the culprit...


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

johnnycake said:


> And the operation of the public grazing programs by USFS and BLM spends ~$3 to generate $1.


Corn subsidies, dairy subsidies, e-vehicles subsidies, solar industry subsidies, etc, etc, etc. I'm good with subsidized grazing if it keeps cattle on the range and keeps ranches viable. Good people tied to the land and as sportsmen we are much better off with cows over cabins if the ranchers sale.


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## Frank M (Jul 28, 2021)

OriginalOscar said:


> Corn subsidies, dairy subsidies, e-vehicles subsidies, solar industry subsidies, etc, etc, etc. I'm good with subsidized grazing if it keeps cattle on the range and keeps ranches viable. Good people tied to the land and as sportsmen we are much better off with cows over cabins if the ranchers sale.


How do ranchers sell public land, exactly, since that is what we are talking about? “Private” lease grazing on public land.

It‘s inevitable that the leases will end and big cattle ranch operations using huge amounts of land will end. They cannot compete with feed lots on price. It’s just a matter of time before we “sportsman“ get fed up bumping elbows with other hunters on crowded public land.

Once the big operations end, no more will we have “ranchers” riding past our hunting camps in the middle of the night on ATV’s pushing elk into their “mostly” fenced in property.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

PBH said:


> I thought it was only me and my brother that jumped to the worst possible scenarios?
> 
> 
> Moose -- so, what did you shoot the cow with? Personally, I'm guessing that all that steel shot in your picture is just a cover. I'm pretty sure you're really shooting lead. Forget the DWR, I'm calling the Feds!!


She was shot with a 6.5 creedmoor


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## DreadedBowHunter (Sep 22, 2021)

Are you happy to see me or is that a deadhead in your pocket? 😆


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## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Frank M said:


> How do ranchers sell public land, exactly, since that is what we are talking about? “Private” lease grazing on public land.
> 
> It‘s inevitable that the leases will end and big cattle ranch operations using huge amounts of land will end. They cannot compete with feed lots on price. It’s just a matter of time before we “sportsman“ get fed up bumping elbows with other hunters on crowded public land.
> 
> Once the big operations end, no more will we have “ranchers” riding past our hunting camps in the middle of the night on ATV’s pushing elk into their “mostly” fenced in property.


What a total load of Bull!!!! You ever tried herding cattle, much less WILD ELK???? I will go ahead and answer for you and say NO!!! Therefore you have zero idea what you are saying. 😂😂😂 herding elk after dark with four wheelers. Funny dude!!!!


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Frank M said:


> How do ranchers sell public land, exactly, since that is what we are talking about? “Private” lease grazing on public land.
> 
> It‘s inevitable that the leases will end and big cattle ranch operations using huge amounts of land will end. They cannot compete with feed lots on price. It’s just a matter of time before we “sportsman“ get fed up bumping elbows with other hunters on crowded public land.
> 
> Once the big operations end, no more will we have “ranchers” riding past our hunting camps in the middle of the night on ATV’s pushing elk into their “mostly” fenced in property.


You obviously have no idea on how it actually works. Grazing allotments do not restrict access for hunting. And feed lots are a finishing operation.
Ever think that those "ranchers" are required to move their livestock by certain dates? And just maybe it is not their only job?

My prediction is that the big operations will get bigger when you force others out and then you have even less influence than you have now. And the choices become to sell private land for development or mega corporations. What would you like to see?


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Frank M said:


> How do ranchers sell public land, exactly, since that is what we are talking about? “Private” lease grazing on public land.
> 
> It‘s inevitable that the leases will end and big cattle ranch operations using huge amounts of land will end. They cannot compete with feed lots on price. It’s just a matter of time before we “sportsman“ get fed up bumping elbows with other hunters on crowded public land.
> 
> Once the big operations end, no more will we have “ranchers” riding past our hunting camps in the middle of the night on ATV’s pushing elk into their “mostly” fenced in property.


Obviously you do not understand most ranches are combination of private owned and public leases. You might think when a ranch sales that the lease somehow is left open. Typically it's leased to new operator. Worst part is when cabins replace winter range and cabin owners lock out access to public lands. 

CWMU program has opened vast tracks of Utah to public hunters and provide incentive to keep elk, deer on the private lands. Growing up in Utah we often were shocked when ranchers would ask DWR to cull elk out of haystacks during winter. Ranchers and sheepmen are mostly good people trying to make a living on lands they've loved for generations.


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## Frank M (Jul 28, 2021)

cowboy said:


> What a total load of Bull!!!! You ever tried herding cattle, much less WILD ELK???? I will go ahead and answer for you and say NO!!! Therefore you have zero idea what you are saying. 😂😂😂 herding elk after dark with four wheelers. Funny dude!!!!


On this forum alone, there are many reports of this night time activity. And those reports are not by me. I suppose there are a lot of funny dudes, according to you.

You‘ve seen the facts, in this thread posted by others. Ranching on public land has outlived its usefulnes, mostly because it only accounts for 4% of beef sold. Public welfare for private ranchers will end.


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## Frank M (Jul 28, 2021)

Ranchers have the right to do whatever they want on their private land.

Manage all public land for exclusively for public game, like elk and deer, and those herds will grow 10 fold from what they are today.

Managed exclusively for hunters paying fees for the privilege to hunt.

Were ranchers the original lobbyists, circa 1820?


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Frank M said:


> On this forum alone, there are many reports of this night time activity. And those reports are not by me. I suppose there are a lot of funny dudes, according to you.
> 
> You‘ve seen the facts, in this thread posted by others. Ranching on public land has outlived its usefulnes, mostly because it only accounts for 4% of beef sold. Public welfare for private ranchers will end.


Would these be the Forum Flat Haters who had meltdown over trailcams and baiting? BHA member I suspect. Get out more!


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

I’ll say this, I’ve seen cattle on a public land lease go in and completely dry out waterholes that normally provide deer and elk with water the entire year.

it’s simple math really, the mountain can only sustain so much life, when you throw thousands of animals on a landscape, that individually weigh over 2k pounds and that require 24-45 pounds of vegetation a day, plus around 20+ gallons of water, it’s going to negatively impact the ecosystem, in a big way.

now the water requirement depends on the size of the cow, temps and whether or not it’s lactating, just averaging it out.

To pretend it doesn’t negatively impact deer and elk is ignorant at best.


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## Frank M (Jul 28, 2021)

OriginalOscar said:


> Get out more!


I’m not sure what that means. I suspect you’re encouraging me to follow your lead when you went public and got out of the closet? Weird, but whatever.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

OK folks, lets get back onto the original subject of a possible poached elk and perhaps the dead head law..


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

As for the dead heads, I've seen some clueless non hunters carry off some dead heads before as well. Probably not as common as hunters doing it but it still happens.


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## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

I still wanna hear people defend the fairytale of ranchers herding elk after dark with four wheelers!!! I don’t care how many people claim to have sent it happen I still call BS. Maybe the key is to not drink so **** much!!! 😂


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Perhaps another thread with videos of it happening along with folks dropping flower sacks out of helicopters.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Critter said:


> Perhaps another thread with videos of it happening along with folks dropping flower sacks out of helicopters.



The flour sacks out of helicopters were either done by the DWR or by DLL with the blessing of the DWR. Or so the story went.  

It's hard to keep these things straight, you know.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

What's this legendary story about flour sacks?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Not to jumble up this thread with other than a poached elk and dead heads I started a new thread that could get quite interesting after a while. 









Facts and Legends and Foke Lore of Big Game Hunting


Everyone likes to talk about the Facts, Legends, and Folklore Legends of Big Game Hunting so lets hear some of the better stories. Pictures and videos are more than welcome. Let's hear about those flour sack drops, the wild ATV rides at night through camps. Drones pushing elk and deer onto...




www.utahwildlife.net


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## 1trhall (Oct 18, 2017)

Frank M said:


> How do ranchers sell public land, exactly, since that is what we are talking about? “Private” lease grazing on public land.
> 
> It‘s inevitable that the leases will end and big cattle ranch operations using huge amounts of land will end. They cannot compete with feed lots on price. It’s just a matter of time before we “sportsman“ get fed up bumping elbows with other hunters on crowded public land.
> 
> Once the big operations end, no more will we have “ranchers” riding past our hunting camps in the middle of the night on ATV’s pushing elk into their “mostly” fenced in property.


 Let me educate you a bit on how beef cattle raising is done. They aren't raised in a feedlot from the time they're born. Cattle ranchers run cow and calf operations. The calves are born and raised up to "feeder" size which is usually in the 500-700 pound range. Typically ranchers sell they crop of feeder calves in the fall or spring and the buyers of these calves from the sale yards are usually the large feedlot operations where they are then "fed out" to slaughter size. So the large feedlots do not compete with ranchers, other than on the price paid at the sale yard.


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## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Don’t confuse these guys with facts. 😂


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

This forum is so entertaining!!!

F the cattle barons!!!!

🍿


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## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

🙄


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

ns450f said:


> This forum is so entertaining!!!
> 
> F the cattle barons!!!!
> 
> 🍿


Not that I know the definition of "cattle baron" But I wonder who else deserves to be "F" in your world? What do you contribute to the big picture?


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## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Guys like ns450f are the reason gates stay locked, access denied and ranchers who get very tired of so called sportsmen. I do not know you from Adam ns450f. But for you to throw out a blanket statement like that makes me wonder why I’d ever even want to! It’s an embarrassment to this site and to actual hunters when folks act like that.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Frank M said:


> Manage all public land for exclusively for public game, like elk and deer, and those herds will grow 10 fold from what they are today.


Sorry, late to the party here, but this statement made me chuckle. Anyone else on here think that private lands (properly managed) are less productive than public lands ever could be?? I just find that extremely hard to believe. If so, why would "private access" be so desirable to have? I don't care how well public land is managed or how well is "could" be managed, simple pressure by numbers will never make it as productive as private land that has only limited pressure put on it.

I'll jump into the public grazing debate too. My opinion? Responsible private ranchers with public grazing allotments, and I would bet this is the vast majority, are a net positive in my book. It are the few that overstay their their allotment dates or overgraze their allotments that ruin the image...much like the hunters that don't close gates, shoot livestock and buildings, or rut up fields ruin hunters' image. 

People having a connection to land that goes back generations is a good thing in today's age where nothing is sacred and the all mighty dollar reigns supreme. That connection is often the only reason that land may keep from becoming subdivisions in the future. Some things money just can't buy if the connection is strong enough!


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

middlefork said:


> Not that I know the definition of "cattle baron" But I wonder who else deserves to be "F" in your world? What do you contribute to the big picture?




1. Joe Biden
2. I save life's everyday that I work.

What do you contribute to the big picture?




cowboy said:


> Guys like ns450f are the reason gates stay locked, access denied and ranchers who get very tired of so called sportsmen. I do not know you from Adam ns450f. But for you to throw out a blanket statement like that makes me wonder why I’d ever even want to! It’s an embarrassment to this site and to actual hunters when folks act like that.




I already got two bites. The fishing here is better than panguitch lol











You guys take your self way too serious, really I mean you all managed to take a thread about dead heads and turn it into a political rant about cattle.


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## cowboy (Oct 12, 2021)

Another internet tough guy. Super classy too!!! 🙄
Hey moderator when is it enough???


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I agree things need to be toned down a few notches on both views.

One way that everyone can do it themselves is to just quit replying to those that you disagree with. I know that it is hard at times not to reply but in some of these threads we all need to practice some self restraint no matter how hard it is and we really want to reply to someone 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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