# More tags issued in exchange for less effective weapons?



## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Out of curiosity, who would support more tags being issued in exchange for using less effective weapons?
We have a limited commodity of animals, an increase of hunters, and an un-checked growth of human population that does not appear to have an end in sight.
I was born in Utah and grew up during a time I could hunt ducks and pheasants after school along the Jordan River in West Jordan.
I have not missed a single hunting season since other than two years for a Mission.
I am disgusted with what we have turned Utah in to. 
I would love to move to Wyoming but wife is too attached to grandkids that reside between West Jordan and Layton.

SO,
now we need to find a way to keep doing what we all love because I don’t plan on giving up soon.
I would gladly give up some modern technologies I’ve become accustomed to ( my scope/sabot/pelletized powder of my muzzy, my rangefinder on my bowhunt, and the scope off my Tikka) in order to hunt deer every year. I’m sure there are even more items I would give up given more time to think about it.
Heck, it would force me to use the .30-.30 my Mom used to kill a buck with every year back in ‘The Day’.
I am not willing to give up my points though.
I also want to hunt with my kids, not vicariously through them.
We all want to hunt every year.
We all want to see animals, even if we don’t draw blood.
Today’s technology is akin to hitting a home run every time up to bat or scoring a field goal at every kick.
It is too easy to kill the animal once one is located.
I just want to play, even if I don’t win every time.
We all better brainstorm a way to get more tags issued every year so that we can all stay in the game.
If changes don’t come from us we definitely won’t like what may be coming.
Anyone else willing to cut back on some technology in exchange for more opportunity?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Make it easy. Just eliminate the use of gun powder!8)

Most general season success rates are in the 30% range already. At what point do people quit hunting?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Holy chit :roll: they sky isn’t falling. Either calm down or take up golf. Quit trying to get more by advocating for less


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

This is like the 5th thread in a week about how the bottom is falling off of Utah hunting. 

I disagree. I think Utah hunting is still pretty good.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

There's some great tech out there for sure, and many of us carry some of it like rangefinders, scopes, etc. But the stuff that gives you exact readings on where to place shots, clicks to click on a scope is something that isn't all that common among the majority of hunters. At least I don't know anyone that uses all of that high end items. Maybe I don't get out enough...

I like the modern tech that I use, and I don't believe it guarantees a "homerun" every time I go out. There is too much human error that comes into play when hunting. I get out regardless of whether I draw or not. Either with a rifle, muzzle loader, bow, or a camera. That doesn't work for everyone! I feel like I could hunt deer in Utah every year if I wanted, but like the unit I spend the most time on. 

Interesting topic, but I just don't mind the way things are other than I would like the DWR to decide how many tags are allotted to each unit for all species before the draw application period.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

MM, the sky is falling in tiny increments. 
If you don’t protect yourself it will come crashing down on you/us before you know it.

Vanilla, I do not know your age but maybe you are not old enough to remember two bucks a year per hunter and drawing antlerless tags yearly?
How about pheasants/dove hunting access just by knocking on a door?
When was the last time you shot a few limits of wild roosters in Utah?
Hunting is still decent in Utah but not like it used to be.

I do appreciate you all responding to my question.
I wanted to get a feeling on where I stood on Utah’s hunting opportunities vs. how my fellow sportsman feel.
Thank you.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

“Hitting a Home run every time”.

Have you not witnessed a general deer hunt? Most guys can’t connect on the first shot at 300 yards with a big rifle and fancy scope. Most guys can’t hit a deer with a muzzy the first shot at 150 yards. It’s painful and embarrassing to watch some of these clowns try to shoot a deer. One time I ran into a guy that had a brand new gunwerks rifle in a 6.5 creedmoor, that didn’t have any idea how to run the turrets on his scope. He was doing the old hold over and pray method with a rifle that costs 7k+. Far more deer are missed at 50 yards with a bow than get hit. And 50 yards isn’t that far with today’s equipment. No, it’s definitely not a home run every time the trigger is pulled.

And you can’t blame the inability to get permission for private fields in Utah, on the fact the upland hunts suck. The landowners simply don’t want strangers on their property. And in today’s world, I 100% understand that. It’s still not hard to get permission, especially if you have local ties to the area that you can relate to. There’s plenty of pheasant habitat in the state. I don’t really think that’s the big issue for their low numbers. I think it has more to do with the fact that they aren’t a native species to the area, and they haven’t adapted well, like the other introduced species have. With that said, if you put in work, you could still shoot limits fairly easily. I know many guys who do it every year. Predators come into play here too. When was the last time you killed a few raccoons or skunks and did your part on helping the population? I bet it’s closer to ‘never’ than ‘all the time’. Maybe they need to shut down that hunt completely for a few years. But even if they did that, I bet you’d still see the same amount of birds.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I have to agree with shaner on the pheasant hunting in todays time! I've experienced the days of shooting a limit (2) roosters before heading off to school. I know for a fact that habitat loss is the primary cause for the decline followed very close with predation. 


Moose commented on closing the hunting for a couple years. (pheasants) I don't think many hunters would care to tell you the truth. What about Big Game though? Not saying close the hunt, just hike the price of a tag ($40 is high for a deer in my book) and require the cost for ALL tags at the time of application. I believe that would limit a few from applying for everything and making tags more difficult to draw. Many have no problem dropping $100 for a tag application at $10 each. It's a little harder when you have to drop $1000 for a hunt application. 


There, I said it...……..Hunting is heading in the direction for the wealthy. It has been for many years though.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Ah, to travel back in time...well, you can't. I too drove the old canal roads of West Jordan in pursuit of pheasants. We always stopped in and visited Tuff, and his boy's Gene and Don and Jay, when Doves where the quarry. We chased rabbits where Eagle Mountain city now stands. I remember fishing Trial Lake and being the only people there. When I would park our old '52 Willys wagon in the parking lot of South High and it was the only 4x4 around, and oh, yeah, we never called them 4x4's back then. The idea of having special, fancy, dedicated clothing to wear hunting was... "wait...say what?" Yea, I guess they were the good old days, but they are gone except in my memories. But, life goes on and hunting is still fun as ever. The day will come when your life is the "good old days"...you lucky dog.


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## prumpf (Apr 8, 2016)

I think we would start seeing a lot of wounded animals. 

Especially when we think about eliminating range finders. Anyone hunting with a bow is already at a very low success rate (that’s why archery elk tags are over the counter). 

When it comes to Rifle hunting i would rather have the current crowed on the mountain, then an even bigger crowed with less technology.

Nothing is more constant than change, sure it can suck when we remember how great something back then was and it might not be today however there are also a lot of things (not necessarily hunting) that are better today then they have ever been.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

MM, 
“Close pheasant season for a year”? That’s crazy talk.
Aren’t you always saying you advocate for more opportunity?
And, you have sorely misjudged me concerning my efforts in predator control and habitat improvement.
I patrol a property twice a week for skunks and raccoons, I hate them.
I have only turned in two coyotes this year but not from lack of trying.
I have planted Jap Millet and so many Sago Pond Weed tubers this year it would make your head spin.
I live in the city but plant a feed quality corn patch in my backyard that produces 700-800 cobs of corn. Some I just throw on the ground. During the winter I have about 50-60 ducks come in every night.
I take a couple hundred cobs during pheasant breeding season and throw them along roads and fence lines so the hens have a quick food source to get back on the nest.
I use to kill 12-16 pheasants in the Utah season, it was not easy. I would be worn out and scratched up from the Russian Olives but at least the birds were there.
I am jealous, and probably subconsciously bitter (not at you), that you have a spot you can “easily kill” two wild Utah roosters a day.
My advice to you:
Do whatever you need to do to keep access to those wild birds.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

shaner, I don’t remember the days of two buck tags and doe tags every year, but I’m old enough to have killed wild pheasants in Utah by asking permission, which I don’t even try that one anymore. 

Yes, things have changed. Yes, there are more people in Utah and less deer (and pheasants). But not everything is bad. Waterfowl hunting in Utah is fantastic, as good as it’s ever been. And how many people were killing elk back when you were taking two buck deer tags and a doe tag every year? 

I am also old enough to know that every generation longs for “the good old days.” Every generation after is weaker, less intuitive, lazy, yada yada yada. Your parents and grandparents felt the same way. I’ll feel the same way about my grandkids as well. It’s just what we do as humans.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

BP, you probably peppered my parents house with shot back in the day!
Just kidding, growing up the canals in WJ had to many houses along them but the Jordan was still a happy place.
Catfish at night, white bass by the buckets, mallards, roosters, and the Holy Grail for a young punk:
A Canada goose if you got lucky.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

True that Vanilla, thanks for your comments.
I started this thread in hopes to brainstorm ways to get some of those opportunities back.
You have any thoughts on how to increase opportunities, especially with deer?
I fear Utah’s pheasant hunting( for the vast majority) will simply RIP and never be revived. Sad.
As for waterfowl season I both agree and disagree with you:
Only one Pintail again this year, that one hurt!!


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

shaner said:


> True that Vanilla, thanks for your comments.
> I started this thread in hopes to brainstorm ways to get some of those opportunities back.
> You have any thoughts on how to increase opportunities, especially with deer?
> I fear Utah's pheasant hunting( for the vast majority) will simply RIP and never be revived. Sad.
> ...


The pintail situation has nothing to do with utah. It's the feds that have the final say on that. Waterfowl hunting is as good as its ever been. My dad, who has been running airboats and hunting waterfowl since the early 60s, who lived through the "glory days" in Utah will tell you that waterfowl numbers and hunt quality is as good, or better, than its ever been.

It's really comical to see everyone lose their mind after 1 weird year of draw results and permit sale trends. Nothing has been the 'norm' this year, and everyone has been ok with it and accepted it, with the exception of utah hunting. When it comes to that, it's as bad as it's ever gonna be and we need to take drastic measures to fix the problem (that in reality probably doesn't exist yet). They just changed a bunch as far as permit and draw structures go, regarding bonus and PP points, in an effort to address point creep. Anyone that's played the game should have expected things to change this year due to that. Combine that with corona, It flushed a lot of top point holders out. Let's see what happens in the next 3-5 years. If things are still the same, then we can look at other ways to address the issues.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

MM,
I’ve owned a few airboats and was President of the UAB for two years.
What was your Dad’s name, I may have had the pleasure to hang out with him?
I sold my last airboat when the parking lot at FB had 24-36 boats launching out on any given Saturday.


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## cedar (Jul 29, 2013)

I like hunting with shotguns.how about set up some hunts with a single shot shotgun using buckshot only?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

shaner said:


> You have any thoughts on how to increase opportunities, especially with deer?


To me, the answer to this is simple. If we want more opportunities to hunt deer, we need more deer. Now, how to create more deer becomes a little less clear, but I'm not a biologist, so I don't feel a pressing need to figure that one out. Those we already pay to figure that out should be figuring that one out, in my opinion. I think we have small sample size experiments that have shown we can have a positive impact here. Predator removal, highway fencing and over/underpasses, habitat restoration, etc all should have a positive impact across the board, but it's going to cost money. I wish the tens of millions of dollars that have gone to "conservation" organizations were being focused solely into these projects. I do think it would make a difference. More deer = more tags = more opportunity = less happy "trophy hunters."



shaner said:


> I fear Utah's pheasant hunting( for the vast majority) will simply RIP and never be revived. Sad.


Unfortunately, I agree. Way too many houses where pheasants used to roam. I live in one, so I can't really complain too much. I don't see any realistic way to legitimately revive the wild pheasant population in Utah. We're stuck with planted birds on WMAs for youth hunts and pheasant clubs here, I believe.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

If we want more opportunities to hunt deer, we need more deer. Now, how to create more deer becomes a little less clear, but I'm not a biologist, so I don't feel a pressing need to figure that one out.


If you could figure that one out, you'd be holding the Holy Grail. I'd think you'd have to be able to control the weather, growth, fire, flood, habitat loss, and so on. Only one individual I know of that can do that. 


I can see it now in 20 years...&#8230;&#8230;The DWR will be raising deer and turning them out the day before the opener. Similar to the "Pheasant hunt" and have a map that show's the release areas.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> This is like the 5th thread in a week about how the bottom is falling off of Utah hunting.
> 
> I disagree. I think Utah hunting is still pretty good.


TS
I agree on the waterfowl.
Probably the best it's ever been.

Everything else is headed downhill.

Besides maybe a few OIAL hunts


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

I was going to go hunt out of state for deer in different state this year and the area I wanted to hunt had no buck tags this year because of low numbers. geez Utah would never close down an area to help anything. I Just came back from there and seen some nice bucks that will be even bigger next year for us.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> TS
> I agree on the waterfowl.
> Probably the best it's ever been.
> 
> ...


Goof, the elk hunting is not worse off today than it was in the 50s, 60s, or 70s. It may not be at its peak, but we've never had a time where all species peaked together. Never. That dream is just that. It never existed in reality.

My statement that things are pretty good should not be misunderstood to suggest I think things are perfect. But overall, a Utah hunting is pretty darn good.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I'm not sure why everyone is busting Shaner's chops for suggesting less lethal weapon systems. The guy makes a great point and is advocating for more opportunity and more tags; Why are you guys against opportunity?! :grin:

Problem is we LOVE our toys, we spend lot's of money on em and nobody likes to put away their favorite toy.

Real question is would less lethal weapons result in less harvest, thereby being able to increase tags issued?

Probably maybe but won't happen unfortunately, too much toy $ invested.

Would be pretty easy rules too
Archery: No releases, fingers have to pull back the string--done!
Muzzleloader: No inlines, sabots, scopes--done!
Rifle: No Scopes, red dots, rangefinders--done!


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Thank you for weighing in Airborne.
I appreciate even the negative comments, it lets me gauge my fellow hunters feelings on the subject.
I believe less lethal weapons will result in less harvest which results in more huntable deer, therefore being able to maybe hunt every year.
I don’t care if I spill blood every year, I just want the opportunity every year to be out there.
I have bunches of money tied up in toys also, I understand it will be difficult to put them away.
But, would it be worth it?
I say ‘YES’, but that is just me.
I guess partly what I am also trying to say is the change better come from us, not a higher authority that might not understand why all of us do what we do.
Edit- Remember it is called ‘hunting, not ‘shooting’ season.


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

shaner said:


> Thank you for weighing in Airborne.
> I appreciate even the negative comments, it lets me gauge my fellow hunters feelings on the subject.
> I believe less lethal weapons will result in less harvest which results in more huntable deer, therefore being able to maybe hunt every year.
> I don't care if I spill blood every year, I just want the opportunity every year to be out there.
> ...


So less harvest percentage, but more people out there. Won't it even itself out?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

This past fall, several hundred yards down from us a 12 year old tried to kill his first buck. He was surrounded by Grandpa, Dad, Brothers and an Uncle. It was a small spike, barely 5" horns. The kid shot that buck to pieces, hit it 5 times before he killed it. Shot it in the hinds, twice. Guts. Front shoulder and finally a vitals hit. They walked down to it, kicked dirt for a while, then wandered off... leaving the buck to rot

There were others there standing there watching all of this going down... they assumed the party went down to get atvs and come back for the deer. They alerted the DWR who was up there the next day doing an "investigation". Thats were I heard the story, from two guys who witnessed this, and talked to the DWR officer. 

My wife ironically shot a buck not 100 yards from where this buck was abandoned, just moments before the DWR showed up.

How many other bucks are being left by trash hunters like this? What kind of example was the rest of the family for this kid? My hell even grandpa was ok with leaving it. They should have NEVER let that kid even aim at that buck if they weren't happy with bringing it home.

I would love to believe the people were caught and cited, but I doubt they were.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Every year I usually find at least 2 deer that were shot and left and most of them are near a road.

As for less effective weapons, I wonder how many more wounded deer and elk we would then have?

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I have come up with the ultimate solution to getting tags and possibly moving the point creep faster???? 


It's becoming the new "Norm" that most will draw a deer tag every other year. So, say if you were born on a odd number year, you can only apply for a tag on a odd number year? 


Brilliant I know.....I'll be here all week. :mrgreen::mrgreen: LOL


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

RemingtonCountry said:


> So less harvest percentage, but more people out there. Won't it even itself out?


Yep--that's the point--same harvest, more hunters afield, more opportunity, less plugs in bums!


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Critter said:


> Every year I usually find at least 2 deer that were shot and left and most of them are near a road.
> 
> As for less effective weapons, I wonder how many more wounded deer and elk we would then have?
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


Does Colorado, Nevada & Idaho have more wounded game with their more primitive muzzy rules than other states muzzy hunts? Do the many many states back east have more wounded game with their shotgun only seasons? Plenty of evidence to suggest that is not true.

It's ok to disagree with the idea based on liking the toys you have--that is a valid reason but I like the idea of more tags, less bum plugs if my toys are switched out or altered.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> I have come up with the ultimate solution to getting tags and possibly moving the point creep faster????
> 
> It's becoming the new "Norm" that most will draw a deer tag every other year. So, say if you were born on a odd number year, you can only apply for a tag on a odd number year?
> 
> Brilliant I know.....I'll be here all week. :mrgreen::mrgreen: LOL


Ya know taxidermist....I feel bad for ya when Moosemeat calls ya names sometimes but then I kinda understand it sometimes too! :grin:


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

shaner said:


> Thank you for weighing in Airborne.
> I appreciate even the negative comments, it lets me gauge my fellow hunters feelings on the subject.
> I believe less lethal weapons will result in less harvest which results in more huntable deer, therefore being able to maybe hunt every year.
> I don't care if I spill blood every year, I just want the opportunity every year to be out there.
> ...


Honestly, I don't think you'd see much change as far as success goes, even if you limited people to very primitive weapons. There's a lot of guys out there that are straight up killers. Doesn't matter what weapon is in their hands, they will still kill animals. I think the only difference you'll see is the amount of days hunted by each hunter in the long run. Some guys you can do everything but pull the trigger for them, and they still won't kill an animal. Others you can hand a spear, and they will cut a tag.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Airborne said:


> Ya know taxidermist....I feel bad for ya when Moosemeat calls ya names sometimes but then I kinda understand it sometimes too! :grin:


Don't feel bad for guys that bring it on themselves


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Nope


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

MooseMeat said:


> Honestly, I don't think you'd see much change as far as success goes, even if you limited people to very primitive weapons. There's a lot of guys out there that are straight up killers. Doesn't matter what weapon is in their hands, they will still kill animals. I think the only difference you'll see is the amount of days hunted by each hunter in the long run. Some guys you can do everything but pull the trigger for them, and they still won't kill an animal. Others you can hand a spear, and they will cut a tag.


Could very well be true Moose--for kicks and giggles I looked at harvest rate for the Ruby mountains area in Nevada (unit 101-109), huge unit and their largest deer herd. The only difference between their muzzy hunts and ours are they don't allow scopes--that's it. Their success percentage was 20% in 2019. Looking at large units in Utah like Wasatch east or Manti the success percentage is 27%-ish. This was just a quick glance at a comparable--maybe is means something, maybe not.

You are correct that there are stone cold killers out there--that is for sure. On the aggregate I think maybe less efficient weapons could knock down success by 10% or so depending on how primitive ya get. Something to think about.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I could see some merit in limiting some technology. The problem is going to be, what do you limit/restrict and what do you still allow? Any designation in this is going to be completely arbitrary on the whole. 

I don't archery hunt. It would be easy to say we restrict compound bows with all the bells and whistles and go back to recurve for everyone. Except, even as a non-archery hunter, I don't want that! I want clean, quick, ethical kills. Now doubt a person can do all of the above with a recurve bow, but how many people do we realistically believe have that skill level? 

I have muzzleloader hunted enough to understand that allowing scopes changed the game. Completely! So the easiest restriction to me would be to limit scopes again. I don't think I want to see us go back to only flintlock musket. I'm okay with modern muzzleloaders, quality bullets, etc. But again, is my way of thinking arbitrary? 

As for rifles, do people REALLY believe that going to open sights only on a rifle is even realistic, let alone a good idea? Sure, there is technology you can limit on there as well. A max of a 10X scope? Maybe 9X so the classic 3-9 fits in? But when was the last time the majority of hunters went into the hills without scopes on their rifles? You're trying to take it back to before the television? 

Anyway, I think it's all worthy discussion at this point, but people need to be realistic and rational in what we are talking about here. 

If you want to start limiting technology, then the first place to start is how people locate the animals, not in how they kill them. Every tree in the forest it seems has a cellular trail camera on it these days. We'd probably have more animals survive each year if people were not able to watch them 24 hours per day from their couch or office desk. Just a thought.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I never understood the argument that allowing scopes on MLs would reduce the wounding rate. It just increased wounding at longer ranges. And we saw an increase in success rates. 

There is no doubt that the increase of technology has impacted the herds, especially the mature segments of the herds. When and how do we limit technology? Over the past 20 years we have seen a huge increase in tech. The problem occurs when tech comes out, people buy it, and now they own the "toys" there is a push back on limiting that tech. So when real-time Trail Cams come out, the Rules are behind on restricting them. But now some people have them so we can't restrict them. 

What is the next tech coming? How will we react to it? And are we willing to hunt more often if all weapon types are restricted in the tech involved?


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

MM,
What is your Dad’s name, I wonder if I hung out with him during my airboating years?


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> I could see some merit in limiting some technology. The problem is going to be, what do you limit/restrict and what do you still allow? Any designation in this is going to be completely arbitrary on the whole. kind of--arbitrary means no reason or on a whim whereas the season would be to limit harvest. We can pick and choose this but ultimately get harvest rates down
> 
> I don't archery hunt. It would be easy to say we restrict compound bows with all the bells and whistles and go back to recurve for everyone. Except, even as a non-archery hunter, I don't want that! I want clean, quick, ethical kills. Now doubt a person can do all of the above with a recurve bow, but how many people do we realistically believe have that skill level? I do! (humble brag)
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this--Nevada did it--no cameras on public land starting 8/1, Utah should do this. Also why in the world we allow baiting for big game ungulates is beyond me (full disclosure and coming clean-I have shot a few cow elk with my recurve over a salt block--not all of them but like 3 of them--for shame and am a hypocrite but what's new!)


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

To clarify, I don't think limiting technology itself is arbitrary. It is the determining which technology is okay and which is not now that would become highly arbitrary, and likely would be decided based solely upon what the most influential people in the room want. Or, better said, depends upon HOW the most influential people in the room like to hunt.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> To clarify, I don't think limiting technology itself is arbitrary. It is the determining which technology is okay and which is not now that would become highly arbitrary, and likely would be decided based solely upon what the most influential people in the room want. Or, better said, depends upon HOW the most influential people in the room like to hunt.


Totally agree with ya Niller'
Maybe to weed out prejudices look to other states rules-->
Copy Idaho for Muzzleloader rules
Copy Ohio, Michigan and Iowa for rifle rules, wherein you can only use straight walled cartridges
Archery isn't limited much anywhere, maybe Colorado 80% let off rule is all


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Personally if we are going to head anywhere with change, in a positive direction, we need to change the overall percentage of tags allocated to the rifle pool. Currently it’s half that go to any legal weapon. You could take that number, divide it in half, give that number to the rifle and then take the other half divide it by 2, multiply one half by 4 for archery and the other half by 2 or 3 for muzzy. Reducing rifle permits, creating more “opportunities” for more hunters while not having too much of an impact on the animals


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Up until just a few years ago... ML pool was the same as the rifle pool. You could spend $6 or whatever it was to swap between either hunt (Before they started anyway).

So it was really Archery and "everything else".

-DallanC


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Maybe experiment with a couple sub units with reduced-capability weapon requirements?
It’s been done and proven successful on the Extended Archery unit (example=breaking out sub-units with special restrictions).
Throw in the requirement of taking/passing a online education course (we have plenty of those, another one can’t hurt).
Monitor hunter satisfaction in conjunction with herd quality status.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> To clarify, I don't think limiting technology itself is arbitrary. It is the determining which technology is okay and which is not now that would become highly arbitrary, and likely would be decided based solely upon what the most influential people in the room want. Or, better said, depends upon HOW the most influential people in the room like to hunt.


Lol. Exactly. Go back and watch the decision to change ML scope rules.

Blows my mind how out of touch with normal folks the board seems.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

Airborne said:


> Does Colorado, Nevada & Idaho have more wounded game with their more primitive muzzy rules than other states muzzy hunts? Do the many many states back east have more wounded game with their shotgun only seasons? Plenty of evidence to suggest that is not true.
> 
> It's ok to disagree with the idea based on liking the toys you have--that is a valid reason but I like the idea of more tags, less bum plugs if my toys are switched out or altered.


You mention back east but neglect that those shotgun rules you can have scopes and rangefinders etc. along with purpose built shotguns for deer hunting that are actually very accurate for nearly every shot one would make out east. You're really not that limited because of shotgun. I don't know if the muzzy rules you speak of though so can't comment on that.

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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Brettski7 said:


> You mention back east but neglect that those shotgun rules you can have scopes and rangefinders etc. along with purpose built shotguns for deer hunting that are actually very accurate for nearly every shot one would make out east. You're really not that limited because of shotgun. I don't know if the muzzy rules you speak of though so can't comment on that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You also can sit in blinds, stands, bait em with feeders and fields, etc....

Ranges are a lot different. We would have long range Shotguns out west lol.


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## Brettski7 (May 11, 2020)

RandomElk16 said:


> You also can sit in blinds, stands, bait em with feeders and fields, etc....
> 
> Ranges are a lot different. We would have long range Shotguns out west lol.





RandomElk16 said:


> You also can sit in blinds, stands, bait em with feeders and fields, etc....


Yes that's true. You can do that here also, except maybe the baiting idk about that, but it doesnt guarantee you will be successful. This is something often talked about on the Archery forum when people discuss these things. They often don't know what they are talking about. I have done all of these things as I'm from the south and have hunted a few states out east. I grew up a whitetail hunter. Those tactics, especially bait, don't guarantee anything. If anything they change deer patterns. I experienced it for years often pushing them nocturnal. I have gone many years without filling all my tags or filling a tag with an abundance of deer around doing just those things.

For us though it was about putting meat in the freezer (12 total possible between me and my dad - that goes along way) so we did what we could to help increase odds.

Most of the areas I hunted also you were not just trekking along all day with the thick underbrush and thickets. Just wasn't happening so yes cutting lanes or setting up stands was pretty much a must.

Hunting Maryland and Kentucky I started learning to use the land and it's resources for hunting. Finding water and food sources, bedding areas etc and all that.

I have enjoyed the last couple of years changing my routine up some and doing more ground stalking and moving around more. I usually did that as a kid also growing up as I got impatient and left the stand early to walk around and see if I could sneak up on something.

I'm extremely excited to put what I have learned over the past few years to use out here this year. I'm enjoying going up and down these mountains.

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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Up until just a few years ago... ML pool was the same as the rifle pool. You could spend $6 or whatever it was to swap between either hunt (Before they started anyway).
> 
> So it was really Archery and "everything else".
> 
> -DallanC


It's been more than 10 years.

I was in a DWR office around then and asked them. Since I have a LL and hunt with my brother in law who has to draw a tag every year I thought that I would see if I could go from a LL rifle tag to a LL muzzle loader tag in the years that he didn't draw and the answer was no


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Ya know taxidermist....I feel bad for ya when Moosemeat calls ya names sometimes but then I kinda understand it sometimes too! :grin:

Hey...&#8230;&#8230;Someone has to be stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over or burn. I don't pay any attention, read or entertain comments he post's anymore. To belligerent and negativity in them and MM seems to find fault in everyone's post. So I just scroll over them now.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> Ya know taxidermist....I feel bad for ya when Moosemeat calls ya names sometimes but then I kinda understand it sometimes too! :grin:
> 
> Hey...&#8230;&#8230;Someone has to be stirring the pot so it doesn't boil over or burn. I don't pay any attention, read or entertain comments he post's anymore. To belligerent and negativity in them and MM seems to find fault in everyone's post. So I just scroll over them now.


Do you want to be the pot or the kettle?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Why is no-one suggesting we ban trucks and cars? We'd easily have double the deer every year. No more road kill... no more interruption of migration routes.


LOL..


-DallanC


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

DallanC said:


> Why is no-one suggesting we ban trucks and cars? We'd easily have double the deer every year. No more road kill... no more interruption of migration routes.
> 
> LOL..
> 
> -DallanC


I knew the ole' slippery slope fallacy would show up sooner or later! Thank you Mr Dallan! Textbook! We should probably ban tooth paste while we are at it! :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think the facetious comment has some merit when you focus on the problem at hand. Obviously, I’m not talking about banning cars. But if we could return historical migration routes and decrease highway mortality for deer, the herd would balloon in a way that no tag cuts could ever dream of! 

Cars and highways do way more damage to deer every year than hunting does. Help that issue, you help the deer herd.

Help the deer herd, and you have more tags.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Eliminate the human population. Problem solved.

Why worry about Covid? Start a world war. Eliminate 20 or 30 million people. No competition and everybody that is left can be happy.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

middlefork said:


> Eliminate the human population. Problem solved.
> 
> Why worry about Covid? Start a world war. Eliminate 20 or 30 million people. No competition and everybody that is left can be happy.


Does johnnycake have a second account?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I'd like to see the 29 or 30 sub-units split up into more like 65. That would make it easier to get a tag on some of the harder to draw units but of course, some units would then become even harder to draw. I do believe that with more sub-units, you would have a few more units that would end up being zero or one point units.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Airborne said:


> I knew the ole' slippery slope fallacy would show up sooner or later! Thank you Mr Dallan! Textbook! We should probably ban tooth paste while we are at it! :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:




The trump card I'm holding will be to bring up the decimation of our herds through poaching this winter when Covid19 completely destroys our economy, and the food shortage forces people to live off deer and elk.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Now you are sounding like OB


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> I'd like to see the 29 or 30 sub-units split up into more like 65. That would make it easier to get a tag on some of the harder to draw units but of course, some units would then become even harder to draw. I do believe that with more sub-units, you would have a few more units that would end up being zero or one point units.


And here I was thinking we should go back to the 5 regions... :behindsofa:


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Back in day, blah, blah, blah, blah. I miss pheasants but can hunt chukars, grouse is 100's of places for months each fall. Waterfowl hunting is amazing and good public hunting opportunities. Pivoted away from deer years ago and love elk hunting. Boy comes home every year for archery elk (unlimited) and I get to play elk guide and spend a week with him. Didn't like the any bull tags sold out in hours but will adapt next year and I'll enjoy spike hunting this year. 

Utah is blessed with vast public land areas and enough opportunities to get afield. The CWMU program opens up additional opportunities and the OIL is expanding. 

Utah is an amazing place and the secret it out! Tell the "back in day" stories but don't miss what's in front of you each day. 

Shaner where in Riverton?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I can solve it and in about 5 years my plan will be completely finished. 

Open up the whole state, any weapon that you choose, unlimited tags. You want 10 elk tags you get them if you have the money and those tags are either sex. Start all the seasons the first of August and end them on December 31. 

In 5 years there won't be anything left to hunt, but some would be real happy for those 5 or so years.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Critter said:


> In 5 years there won't be anything left to hunt, but some would be real happy for those 5 or so years.


And apparently all those that have proposed eliminating opportunity will be real happy after those five years too.

Win-win. Let's do this!

Oscar....*WELL SAID! *


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Eliminate the human population. Problem solved.


Big Brother is working on it now...&#8230;&#8230; It's called COVID-19 population :shock:control.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Vanilla said:


> And apparently all those that have proposed eliminating opportunity will be real happy after those five years too.
> 
> Win-win. Let's do this!
> 
> Oscar....*WELL SAID! *


At least it should make everyone happy at least for a while but those who want to complain will still complain.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Critter said:


> Now you are sounding like OB


Whats interesting, is I've heard several people mention (so far in jest... I hope), doing this very thing if "times get bad".

I know for some folk, times are already bad... I'll bet there will be more than a few people out hunting without tags this year.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

DallanC said:


> Whats interesting, is I've heard several people mention (so far in jest... I hope), doing this very thing if "times get bad".
> 
> I know for some folk, times are already bad... I'll bet there will be more than a few people out hunting without tags this year.
> 
> -DallanC


I have always said that if you are having hard times to sell your rifle and pick up a fishing pole and if you have kids then get them one also along with a fishing license if needed and go fishing.

You can catch a limit every couple of days to supplement what red meat that you have. That's a lot better than poaching, getting caught, loosing your vehicle and rifle and having to go through the court system

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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I don't buy the hard time crap as a justification for poaching. 

If you have a fishing pole (critter really has said this dozens of times) and a shotgun there is plenty of food to be had. Legally.



They even put ponds that they dump fish into right in the middle of neighborhoods so you don't even have to drive far.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

I am just a little north of the high school.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I hear wild horse meat is delicious!


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Airborne said:


> I hear wild horse meat is delicious!


But you may get into more trouble shooting one of them than you would a elk


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I think they should try to decrease the point creep by giving out a few extra tags for each hunt every year to someone to hunt with a recurve or longbow. I bet a lot of people would bite, and a lot of people would fail.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Critter said:


> Airborne said:
> 
> 
> > I hear wild horse meat is delicious!
> ...


I also would like to be able to hunt wild horses. I'm sure they'd taste just fine


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

rtockstein said:


> I also would like to be able to hunt wild horses. I'm sure they'd taste just fine


That would be controlled by the Fed's much like waterfowl. If you can get it started without the lawsuits initiated by the Anti's I'm sure some would take part in the additional opportunity.

Who knows maybe some would give up a moose tag for horse? Maybe a poll is in order?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

While there looks to be a lot of horses it wouldn't take too long to really thin out the herds. 

It would be a fair trade, a moose tag for a horse tag. 

But I can just hear the horse lovers now. As soon as you tried to set up a hunt the lawsuits would follow like a avalanche.


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

Airborne said:


> I hear wild horse meat is delicious!


Now we're talkin


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

"You ever ate a pine tree? I hear some parts are eatable".


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

I don't have time to read the thread but I'd love to see a more primitive weapons hunt. Stick bows and Flint locks during the rut sounds good. Weapons have become efficient but most of the hunters haven't. 

An example of a more efficient weapon would be the muzzleloader that shoots 600 yards. Can't remember who was touting it but I think it was one of the new guys around here that likes to argue with everyone.

Anyhow, I like opportunity.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

APD said:


> I don't have time to read the thread but I'd love to see a more primitive weapons hunt. Stick bows and Flint locks during the rut sounds good. Weapons have become efficient but most of the hunters haven't.


I have posted countless times over the years how even a modern Flintlock is lightyears more developed than an era-accurate flintlock. T/C had a "Black Mountain Magnum" flintlock with synthetic stock, 150gr capable max powder charge, fiber optic sights, special flame channel to ignite pellets, drilled for scope mounts... there is nothing what-so-ever "primitive" about it.

To limit muzzleloaders you have to address Powder, Primers, Optics and Projectiles.

Projectiles should be full bore width, no sabots. Powder needs to go back to Black Powder or substitute (meaning Pyrodex or the like). Primers need to be #11 or Musket Cap, and they must be visible and exposed to the elements. Optics need to be open sights.

There, thats the blue print for a level field primitive ML hunt... and the DWR could care less about making it. In fact, as there isnt a time to even fit that hunt in the current hunt schedule, I'm sure they wont even want to open that door of endless headaches trying to create it and manage it.

Oh and you can still buy a buck deer, bull elk, buck antelope or even a bull moose tag... every single year in the state of Utah. Most people dont because its not that important to them.

-DallanC


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> Oh and you can still buy a buck deer, bull elk, buck antelope or even a bull moose tag... every single year in the state of Utah. Most people dont because its not that important to them.


"You could sell your car and hunt a moose, but apparently you just don't care that much about hunting."


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> "You could sell your car and hunt a moose, but apparently you just don't care that much about hunting."


/shrug its true though. A CWMU tag isnt like the cost of a house, its the cost of a car.

The more likely scenario is a an elderly gentleman who is in his 60s and can either choose to buy a new truck, or drive his existing truck and buy a moose tag. If hunting is more important, he'll go with the moose tag.

I'm not saying 20'somethings should be choosing hunting over other life necessaries, but *IF* hunting is something important to a person, they can live frugally, save and work towards buying that tag over spending money on multiple misc trips like people doing disneyland trips, hawaii trips etc etc.

I think most of us who haven't bought a CWMU or banquet tag moose tag, have probably blown way more money than it would cost on other misc frivolous things in our lives.

-DallanC


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

DallanC said:


> /shrug its true though. A CWMU tag isnt like the cost of a house, its the cost of a car.
> 
> The more likely scenario is a an elderly gentleman who is in his 60s and can either choose to buy a new truck, or drive his existing truck and buy a moose tag...
> 
> ...


So Dallan, when are you going to buy that moose tag? 

I agree that people will always find a way to do the things that are important to them - regardless of the cost.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> /shrug its true though. A CWMU tag isnt like the cost of a house, its the cost of a car.
> 
> The more likely scenario is a an elderly gentleman who is in his 60s and can either choose to buy a new truck, or drive his existing truck and buy a moose tag. If hunting is more important, he'll go with the moose tag.
> 
> ...


You are right. Transportation for years typically overcomes hunting. Medical expenses or things for children typically outweigh hunting.

With toys, yes it boils down to "side by side for years or one hunt".

I think you can make things happen, but lets not pretend everyone on here truly has the means to budget a CWMU tag. Some already are living frugal as you alluded too. Some haven't done Disney, or Hawaii, or anything even close.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> So Dallan, when are you going to buy that moose tag?


Nah I'm going to draw that thing. I'm waiting for some CWMU to start selling Mt Goat tags. Whats the highest elevation CWMU in UTah? LOL...



> I agree that people will always find a way to do the things that are important to them - regardless of the cost.


Yep. And also priorities change. There was a time I would have never imagined not hunting... now I find I miss Dove openers... I havent hunted Pheasants in 20 years. Still hunt buck deer as often as I can, but maybe the time will come I start missing those from time to time.

-DallanC


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Fully guided moose hunts can be had for less than $10,000. Even a few combination hunts for moose and goats but adding that second animal starts to add up. 

This year I might miss hunting deer in Utah for the first time since I was 16, but I still might get a day or two in. My hunting partner who is a resident has some health problems that are getting taken care or and he is planning on turning his Manti buck tag back in. He just has to wait until next week to get his doctors excuse to mail it in. 

But I'll still have my Colorado ML tag and perhaps a elk and bear tag.


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