# Neutered or Spayed dogs



## Ol_Boy23 (Mar 1, 2018)

What’s everybody’s thoughts on spayed or neutering your dogs? Pros and cons?


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

First thing that comes to mind, if you get your boy the big snip, he's less likely to wander off if he smells a bitch in heat. Quite a few male dogs get hit by cars because they wandered off looking for that female they smelled from a long ways off. Other then that, he might be less territorial. (True story: Our last dog was the result of an male Aussie climbing over fences to get to a young border collie in her VERY FIRST heat cycle, which was slated to get spayed. That aussie beat 'em to it..)


As females go, if they're spayed, they wont get Mastisis (breast infection), which to my understanding is not uncommon. Other then that, obviously you won't get an unwanted pups, and on a humorous note, their teets won't be hanging down to their knees.

In either gender its my understanding they calm down a little. (though with our Llwellian that ive grown to dislike so much, that's debatable)

Generally speaking, there really isn't any con to a spay or neuter if your not planning on breeding them.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree with Lone Hunter that "fixing" a dog is to avoid the unwanted possibility of a Female having a litter that's not planned. The Con to this is, the dog can gain weight if not exercised daily.


I've heard folks say that have paid a lot of money for a dog, that they were going to breed her to make money from the pups. Your not going to make that much from a litter of pups! After paying for a Health test, sonogram, etc. and possibly loosing the Mother from birthing complications, takes the $$$ out of the idea. 


It's up to the owner what they intend to do with the dog. I personally wouldn't have a female breed until she is at least two years old.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> I agree with Lone Hunter that "fixing" a dog is to avoid the unwanted possibility of a Female having a litter that's not planned. The Con to this is, the dog can gain weight if not exercised daily.


I suppose that makes sense, though I have to say, that A LOT of owners overfeed their dogs. That said, how much to feed will depend on the individual dog. Generally speaking the guideline is how much the dog weighs. For example our "borderaussie" weighed around 42 pounds. So he had 2 cups a day, one cup for breakfast, the other for dinner, and that was enough for him to maintain proper weight without porking out.

But that dangnable Llwellian I've complained about in the other thread? That dog is probably the same weight, maybe a pound or two lighter, is spayed, and she horks down 4 cups a day. Not an ounce of fat on her. That Dog is REALLY skinny, like a rail. I could probably let that dog free feed all day and she wouldn't gain any weight at all. If it wasn't for the risk of pancreatitis, i'd give her people food for the higher caloric intake. That specialized food is too expensive.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Spay or Neutering will NOT take away hunt drive and desire. It might actually improve hunt drive as they aren't concerned with breeding if you have a female in heat while out hunting. The only advise I will give regarding getting a dog fixed it to wait until they are two years old. Dogs that are cut before puberty are more likely to have longer legs, deeper chests, look 'lerpy' and not be as muscled. This isn't a problem regarding endurance, hunt drive, or anything else, it's really more for looks as a dog that has been through puberty will be more 'muscled' up. Same for females, I think waiting until they have a heat cycle or two before being fixed is a good idea. Two of my three pointers are fixed and I plan on getting the third one snipped this spring as he will be 2-1/2 years old and is as big and toned as he is going to get. If you are not going to bread and most people shouldn't then I say get them fixed.


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## Ol_Boy23 (Mar 1, 2018)

I have a lab shorthair mix he’s 7 months I backed out of getting him snipped this early after I have heard what you have said airborne the guy I got him from said wait at least a year minimum but the vet said the earlier the better so I was kinda confused after reading more I have made the decision to wait because I mean once there gone there’s no going back lol the vets just kinda throw me off im assuming they say the earlier the better to prevent unwanted litters?


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Airborne is spot on. Wait till the dog is fully developed. Do a quick search and there's a fair amount of research verifying this. Fixing a dog does not cause the dog to gain weight. This is a myth. In most cases the dog is just maturing and people don't match the amount of food required vs activity levels vs age of dog. A hyper dog prior to fixing won't be a slug after.

Plus you won't have issues with a dog coming into heat during hunting season or a dog who tries to hump everything in sight.


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## Ol_Boy23 (Mar 1, 2018)

I appreciate all the input you guys are awesome I’m glad I held off I will let him get fully grown before I get it done I just wanted to reassure I was making the right call


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

My males are intact. They mark (pee) on everything and it drives me crazy. My understanding is that neutering a male dog befre their nuts drop helps eliminate this. I'm guessing Veterinarians suggest neutering earlier before the hormones get started too. I just leave 'em alone, what else are they going to lick?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

One of the issues that seems to go along with the longer legs in spayed/neutered young dogs is a much higher rate of joint and ligament problems.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4096726/


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## Ol_Boy23 (Mar 1, 2018)

Johnnycake that is what I have been seeing as well more likely to have hip problems too


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I hunt nothing but fixed dogs, both male and female. I run hounds that hunt in packs so they are always around other dogs. The last thing I want is a female in heat causing a distraction to the rest of the pack. With males, I hate the face barking and "alpha male" contests that's more prevalent in unfixed dogs....it ain't pretty breaking up dog fights in the box.

It sorta boils down to whether you want to be a breeder or a hunter. Personally I'm a hunter. I look around and see a bloodline I like or a dog that is producing and buy into it. It doesn't even matter to me how pedigreed the dog is either, if they are coming home with me they are going to get cut. I'll let others put up with the bullchit of unfixed dogs.

From my perspective, the positives greatly out weigh the negatives when deciding to fix a dog.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Fowlmouth said:


> My males are intact. They mark (pee) on everything and it drives me crazy. My understanding is that neutering a male dog befre their nuts drop helps eliminate this. I'm guessing Veterinarians suggest neutering earlier before the hormones get started too. I just leave 'em alone, what else are they going to lick?


I have had a male dog that was neutered start marking. I believe that he picked up the behavior at a dog park from watching other dogs.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I have had a male dog that was neutered start marking. I believe that he picked up the behavior at a dog park from watching other dogs.


They do learn from each other.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

So let me toss this out there,...…………. What sex would you believe the best to have that is NOT fixed?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

taxidermist said:


> So let me toss this out there,...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. What sex would you believe the best to have that is NOT fixed?


I'll take a female that I can also a diaper on in the house for a few weeks 1-2x a year over an unaltered male any day.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

johnnycake said:


> I'll take a female that I can also a diaper on in the house for a few weeks 1-2x a year over an unaltered male any day.


my current female went through her first heat a couple months back. she spotted for two weeks and i though "that's not too bad". then, she bled like a stuck pig for 3 weeks and i thought "wow, this sucks". then she spotted heavily for another week and a half. that's when i said "SCREW THIS!". she's getting fixed before her next heat cycle.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I usually avoid these types of discussions, but I suppose I might be able to contribute a little to this discussion. As a veterinarian, I talk about and give recommendations about the subject every day. Keep in mind that a majority of my clients may have different priorities than many of the participants here. Forgive me if I am a bit long winded. 


Back when I was in professional school, the practice of spaying and neutering young pups (+/-3 months) became popular and generally accepted. This was encouraged by many humane and rescue organizations that have as a primary aim the reduction of unwanted pregnancies (and populations). In the (many) years since, we have modified what we counsel people as we have been able to follow the results. There are pros and cons for each action and IMO, not a "pat" answer for everyone. Here is what I tell people relating to the subject and what I do in my practice. 


1. At this point, I do not spay or neuter any pups under 6 months. I feel the anesthesia risk is enhanced, musculoskeletal development is hindered, and females have a markedly increased risk of a hormonally dependent urine leakage problem that is usually lifelong. 

2. At 6 months to 1 year, for average females, I counsel people that spaying is easier surgically on the pup, they won't go into heat, and the consensus opinion is that it reduces the risk for mammary gland tumors. Johnycakes paper questions this, but the majority opinion is that it still is protective. As someone who has some interest in oncology, I have treated hundreds of mammary (breast) cancer patients in my career and I have never had a malignant mammary tumor occur in a female spayed before her first heat. Some muscle development is sacrificed in spaying in this slot, and could be a consideration in hunting dogs, but it isn't an issue in the average Shih Tzu.

3. At 6 months for males, if urine sex marking in the house is a disaster that cannot be tolerated, (and for a large percentage of my clients, it is) then I counsel them to neuter here. If maximal muscle development is desired, then wait. Neutering at this age tends to extinguish urine marking. neutering later in life does not. 

4. For performance dogs, like hunting dogs, I recommend waiting on neutering or spaying till at least a year. As noted, it insures maximum development. There is some increasing evidence that this reduces the odds of the patients blowing out their ACL ligaments later on. If owning a non hunting dog, but still wanting him to be maximally buff, wait on neutering. 

5. Cancer risk: I already talked about mammary cancer. The paper Johnycake cited suggested that sterilization increases the risk of some additional cancers, especially in Golden retrievers. The study has caused considerable discussion in our profession. The conclusions likely have merit, but some background. Goldens, along with Boxers, are the two most cancer prone breeds out there. Their overall cancer risk is sizable regardless of whether you fix them or not. One of the tumors mentioned (hemangiosarcoma) is especially devastating and almost never curable. Goldens and German Shepherds are the two breeds that are most prone to this cancer. They are not surprisingly, also listed in the study as being affected by sterilization. So, if I have a Golden I should not fix it? Possibly, and I probably would not, but there are yet other factors. 

6. Intact female dogs fairly commonly get a nasty disease called pyometra. Basically, 3 weeks after going through heat, their uterus fills with pus and the dog either requires emergency surgery to save it or it will die. No fun. Spaying eliminates the possibility of getting this fairly common problem. 

7. Each person has to weigh the potential problems and risk of unwanted pregnancies, wandering, barking, and other problems that may occur with intact dogs. In my experience, most people with intact dogs give no thought to these issues and then are in my office with a sob story when a disaster hits. 

I hope this helps.


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## Ol_Boy23 (Mar 1, 2018)

Well said Catherder that is some great info I appreciate the input!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Great info Cath! I have placed a deposit on a lab pup, and I have 1st pick. The breeder asked if I wanted a female or male. I said I would know after I make my pick at six weeks of age. I want to "test" the pups for trainability, sense of smell, distraction, etc. 


After reading your post, I think I may be leaning toward a Male now.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Thank you Catherder for doing that write up. That took some time and I learned a lot! Much appreciated :grin:


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## FULLHOUSE (Oct 1, 2007)

I had a great chocolate lab a few years back what a good friend and bird dog she was. She got pyometra, what a terrible thing to see her go through. I never had her bred so I wish I would have had her spayed.If so she probably would have lived a full life. She was one of my best bird dogs.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

FULLHOUSE, I feel for ya!!! I also lost a great dog & companion. That was 15 years ago. I'm now getting another pup the 22nd of March.


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## widget22 (Mar 10, 2016)

I have an 11 month old German Shorthair Pointer and have yet to fix him. I was told by a dog trainer I know that he recommends waiting until your dog is mentally mature. With a GSP that is between 18-24 months. If we think about a castrated buck here, they typically dont lose velvet or shed antlers and dont rut the way intact males do. The hormones in the testes/ovaries dictate a lot of the physical and mental phases animals go through as they mature. Im not sure if theres any research to back up his next claim, but he also claims that fixing a male dog before he mentally matures essentially renders you with a physically full grown dog with the mind of a juvenile which may cause behavioral problems that are harder to correct later on. (however, my last dog was a chocolate lab I fixed at 7 months and he was a great dog, although I will admit he had the temperment and behaviors of a puppy most of his 13 yr life).
I'm not sure if all this is true or not, but regardless, I have a couple people who want to breed their dogs with mine before I snip him so he will most likely be around 18 months before I have the procedure done.


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## ZEKESMAN (Sep 14, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> My males are intact. They mark (pee) on everything and it drives me crazy. My understanding is that neutering a male dog befre their nuts drop helps eliminate this. I'm guessing Veterinarians suggest neutering earlier before the hormones get started too. I just leave 'em alone, what else are they going to lick?


My dogs mark on things unless we are hunting, then they hunt. train them. Vic


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## maverick9465 (Nov 21, 2016)

In addition to what has been said here, I've also read about delaying neutering to ensure the dogs get the full amount of testosterone needed for development. My guy is still rocking a pair, and the only issue we've had is marking. Thankfully, he doesn't mark in the house, just every other tree, bush, mailbox, fire hydrant, etc. on a walk. Also, various shelves at Home Depot. :smile:

Good info here too: http://www.gundogmag.com/editorial/continuing-the-spaying-or-neutering-dilemma/176220


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Here is a follow-up article on spaying and neutering that was recently published. It pretty much covers what was discussed previously, but it may be of interest and add some useful insight.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science...ering-health-risks-for-certain-breeds/594355/


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

taxidermist said:


> So let me toss this out there,...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. What sex would you believe the best to have that is NOT fixed?


Male.

If you can handle the marking and have a fence, then I think they are a lot better. You don't have to worry about blood in the house.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Male.
> 
> If you can handle the marking and have a fence, then I think they are a lot better. You don't have to worry about blood in the house.


I'll deal with sticking a diaper on a female for a couple weeks every 6 months over dealing with the making and humping from a male.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that if you don't plan on breeding your animal to have them fixed, male or female. 

I have also come to the conclusion that there are way too many dogs and cats out there. And I am a animal lover.


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