# BRBR and she'll checks



## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

I plan on calling tomorrow to the refuge headquarters but thought I would see if anyone had any other ideas. I am headed up next week to hunt swans but I will be using a 28 with high density notox reloads. My steel and hw15 loads should not be and issue but the hw13 tungsten shot is not magnetic. I really would rather avoid issues with the feds so looking for any ideas from any of you guys. 

Thanks.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Don't take it. I watched a similar scenario unfold last year up there except with factory tungsten with a shotty crimp. I had to leave before all was said and done but he did get a ticket. Not sure of the outcome. If it looks like a good factory crimp you might be OK but brbr isn't a place for chance. Wait till they hit Howard's and use lead. Everybody else does.:shock:


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

I say take the 28 and no-tox loads!
The burden of proof is on the feds if they believe you are using lead or copper.
I use my 20 gauge for goose hunting and love the sub gauge loads.
Good luck and I hope you score a collard swan.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

shaner said:


> I say take the 28 and no-tox loads!
> The burden of proof is on the feds if they believe you are using lead or copper.
> I use my 20 gauge for goose hunting and love the sub gauge loads.
> Good luck and I hope you score a collard swan.


^This.

If they accuse you of using lead then hand them one of your shells and tell them that you'll accept their ticket when they can prove you're using lead.

BTW, I've been checked by their officer five or six times now and he's only checked my shells once. He didn't use a magnet.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

Most (but not all) law enforcement officers now use electronic density meters to check shell contents. But call the office and ask them if their officers have the meters. You could also offer to stop by the HQ and have them check your shells before you go out for your hunt.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

It's not worth the headache IMO. It's a different ball game when you are on a Federal Refuge...... You shoot well enough anyway that using steel shouldn't matter. Hell you could put air soft pellets in a hull and kill birds.8)


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Called and talked to both the refuge manager and the federal warden today. Both were great to talk to and I just let them know I wanted to give them a heads up and see what I could do to make it easy on them and myself. All's good and now they are aware and I know what I need to do. Great experience with both.


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## Goshawk (Sep 7, 2007)

As a reloader myself I am curious as to what they said you needed to do in this situation...


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## MUDDuck (Jul 1, 2013)

> Great experience with both.


Now that's a statement that is GOOD to hear, way too many negative comments.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Clarq said:


> If they accuse you of using lead then hand them one of your shells and tell them that you'll accept their ticket when they can prove you're using lead.


As a friendly FYI to everyone out there...you don't get the option of deciding if you are going to "accept" a citation a law enforcement officer is issuing to you. If you try to get cute with them and refuse to "accept" it you might just be earning a free ride to the county jail.

What you did was the best thing, call to clarify. Too many of us these days are out there looking to pick a fight with law enforcement when a little pre-planning and/or effort can save us a lot of trouble, and negative experiences.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

the officer up there is a great guy. He checked us yesterday and we talked for good ten mins. he even called me last week about having him mark the channel so people dont get lost.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

TS30 said:


> As a friendly FYI to everyone out there...you don't get the option of deciding if you are going to "accept" a citation a law enforcement officer is issuing to you. If you try to get cute with them and refuse to "accept" it you might just be earning a free ride to the county jail.
> 
> What you did was the best thing, call to clarify. Too many of us these days are out there looking to pick a fight with law enforcement when a little pre-planning and/or effort can save us a lot of trouble, and negative experiences.


I agree, you should err on the side of caution and when in doubt make a call and make it easier on yourself. You never know when you're going to run into a Barney fife out there. It is a shame that standing your ground and standing up for yourself is seen as "picking a fight" or getting "cute" with LEO's.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Standing up for yourself is not "cute", at least not what I was referring to. Not "accepting" the citation would be getting cute. And that is not standing up for yourself. There is no legal ground whatsoever to not "accept" a citation from a law enforcement officer. Period. 

You either sign the promise to appear (that is the only thing you are doing by signing a citation), or they can take you to jail and book you so they can be sure to secure your appearance. That's how it works, whether you are innocent or not. But by all means, if one's need to stick it to the man runs so deep that they'd rather go to jail, then more power to them.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

TS30 said:


> Standing up for yourself is not "cute", at least not what I was referring to. Not "accepting" the citation would be getting cute. And that is not standing up for yourself. There is no legal ground whatsoever to not "accept" a citation from a law enforcement officer. Period.
> 
> You either sign the promise to appear (that is the only thing you are doing by signing a citation), or they can take you to jail and book you so they can be sure to secure your appearance. That's how it works, whether you are innocent or not. But by all means, if one's need to stick it to the man runs so deep that they'd rather go to jail, then more power to them.


I got what you were saying. I was making a point that many times LEO's view a person sticking up for themselves as being cute. Even if it's done in a calm, collected and well presented manner. You are at the mercy of whether that LEO has a chip on his shoulder. I was saying it's a shame that we have to tolerate that sort of paralyzing treatment. Like said before it's best to take all necessary steps to avoid a hassle and if you are treated poorly, BE SURE to contact their superior.


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## lablover (Jan 27, 2014)

TS30-
Really your saying if you think your innocent just bend over and let the officer throw it too you or go to jail? I say BS to that!
If you know your innocent then STAND UP! This is the problem with officers today they assume we are ALL guilty of something and it's our job to prove we are innocent!
What has become of our society? I'll I can say is if i'm innocent and know it there is no way in hell I'm signing anything! I have NO love for DNR officers half the time you call them because the guy next you is shooting 30 mins past time and they tell you sorry I'm having dinner with family right now, Can you get there plate # for me?
This is a true story!
Oh well just my 2 cents take it for what its worth;-)


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The way that the courts work is you accept the ticket and make sure that the officer that issues it confiscates the shell or shells that he suspects of being non toxic and make sure that you get a receipt for the shells that were confiscated. You then show up at your court date and watch the judge laugh the officer out of court. That is as long as you are not doing the wrong thing.

It is no different than a traffic ticket other than they have the loaded shotgun shells to introduce into evidence to either prove you guilty or innocent. You may have to take a day off of work but that is the system.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

lablover said:


> TS30-
> What has become of our society? I'll I can say is if i'm innocent and know it there is no way in hell I'm signing anything!


That is your choice, but just as the old saying goes, you are not free to choose what happens as a result of your choice. Like Critter said, this kind of a ticket is just like a traffic ticket. It does not need your signature to become valid. The signature portion of a citation, whether it be traffic or any other type, is simply promising to appear before a magistrate to address the charges. You're not admitting guilt. You're not "accepting" anything. You're saying you will appear for your day in court. If you refuse to sign, an officer is within his authority to then take you jail so you can be booked and your presence before said magistrate can be ensured. Or they may just write "refused to sign" and if you don't show they put a warrant out for your arrest.

The OP handled this perfectly. He was smart enough to realize that although he would be within the law, there could be a problem. He was proactive to ensure there wouldn't be one. A very level-headed and mature decision on his part. And one that potentially saved him time and anxiety on the back end.

This is not a matter of what I think is right or wrong or whether I think you should or shouldn't bend over and take it. I'm telling you what the law is. Go to jail all you want. It really doesn't matter to me. My public service announcement is done.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

TS30 said:


> As a friendly FYI to everyone out there...you don't get the option of deciding if you are going to "accept" a citation a law enforcement officer is issuing to you. If you try to get cute with them and refuse to "accept" it you might just be earning a free ride to the county jail.
> 
> What you did was the best thing, call to clarify. Too many of us these days are out there looking to pick a fight with law enforcement when a little pre-planning and/or effort can save us a lot of trouble, and negative experiences.


Thank you for weighing in TS30. You interpreted my statement differently than I intended. I can see why, because I didn't word it too well. To clarify, I would simply tell the officer that I would be seeing him in court because I did nothing wrong. I would not accept what he did to my by paying the citation.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Goshawk said:


> As a reloader myself I am curious as to what they said you needed to do in this situation...


Just exactly what I did by calling them and letting them know in advance. Of course I am ready for them to check my shells. I have my steel loads labeled, My HW13 loads labeled and sorted, along with my HW15 rounds. They are aware of exactly what it is I will have on me and I will have nothing besides what I told them.

I figured I just need to be straight forward with them in advance to make their life easier and mine. I know the local GW's I know are all aware of the shot types I use and really only stop anymore to see how I am doing but where I am not known and don't have a good report with these guys it just seemed like the smart thing to do for all of us.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

*Some thoughts on the matter*

My comments here are NOT directed at any one individual. All have made some valid comments on this thread.However, I would ask each of you to consider that the LEO has a tough job to do.He has to make a decision based on his training and the empirical evidence at hand on whether an infraction of the law has occurred.If he thinks an infraction has occurred, he is within his rights to issue a citation.What he does not do is decide if you are, in fact, guilty of committing an infraction of the law.That is left 100% up to the court judge to decide.By signing the citation, you are NOT admitting guilt.And you are not bending over and taking it in the shorts.You need to put your ego back in the box you drug it out of, treat the LEO with respect and civility, and save your explanations for the judge who is the only one that controls the outcome of your situation.Know the rules before you go.That's why they have Guidebooks and publish DWR/USF&W phone numbers.Getting pissy with the LEO never works.And yes, some folks idea about standing up for themselves can be, and occasionally is, viewed by others as being pissy.I think hamernhonkers handled his situation correctly and I applaud his wisdom on confrontation avoidance.Good job! Now, can we all just get back to the business of killing ducks?
:O--O:


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