# Should we stop the Pheasant Hunt for a while?



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

What are your thoughts about stopping the pheasant hunt for a year or even longer to help population increase?

My thoughts on this are, I think the pheasant hunt dose need to be stopped, possibly even for a few years just to let Utah's population increase. Some of you will probably disagree but this is my opinion, that it might help if we could just leave them alone for a year or two. Some seasons I wonder if it will be my last because of all the hunters and the few birds I am afraid that eventually nothing will be left to spare. Despite what you all may think there are a few hidy holes where the wild ones still remain, and I think we just need to give it a break for a year or two and see how things might turn out. What do you think?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Should we stop the Pheasant Hunt for a year?*

Pheasant population dynamics are very interesting when you get into the biology of it all. I can see a reaction to stop pheasant hunting and then numbers will increase. On the surface, the numbers will increase by the pheasants not shot - so just the amount of the harvest. But that is about it. Dozens, if not hundreds, of studies have been done on this. And they all point to the same conclusion: harvesting roosters has really no impact on new bird recruitment in the following year. One rooster will cover several, even dozens of hens. What does have much more impact on pheasant populations, is habitat, habitat condition, and weather conditions during early rearing stages, and of course the presence of predators during those key times. But closing the hunt for a year will not cause a noticable change one way or the other in pheasant populations.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I agree with you to an extent on this subject GaryFish, but I know for a fact that there are hunters out there who just get tired of looking for roosters are start knocking off a hen or two, and I have tried to turn them in but it is hard when you don't know who they are and they are a ways away. IMO I think it would help a little maby not a whole lot but a little. Another thing I think, is there is a Pheasant Farm down by the sevier river, in my opinion if there are wild birds around the only thing pheasant farms should be shooting should be strictly roosters, because here's what happened to me last year. I was out hunting pheasants on a guys land and they were out on the farm shooting there farm raised pheasants, and I jumped a hen she was definently wild she flew into the sagebrush they were crossing the road to get into, and about ten minutes later she flew up and got shot. I don't think people on pheasant farms have the right to shoot those hens and they should also have to follow the rules of roosters only.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

That is a tough one on the farm-raised birds. There is balance though, in that several of the raised birds do escape into the wild and do survive. I couldn't tell you how many or anything - but birds do escape the pay to shooter types. Some wild birds do get taken by pay shooters I am sure. I still struggle myself, with the concept of pay-to-shoot bird operations for that reason. I'm not dogging on these operations - but still trying to work it out in my own mind to determine if they are right for me. That is a tough one though. I certainly don't have an answer for it.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Several years ago while out hunting birds we drove past a Pheasant farm operation. They had big long flight pens for the birds, which weren't all ringnecks. They had some exotics in there too. Funny thing was, the pens were made of cheap nylon netting that allowed coyotes and foxes and other predators to tear right through them and let out the birds. There were exotics walking around the outside of the farm operation like chickens! If the people running these things don't mind if their birds get out, i certainly don't! But I do agree- you can't keep the wild ones out of the farms, and certainly can't keep them from getting shot. That kinda stinks. Wild birds could be shot before the hunt opens and long after it closes.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

But to answer the topic of this post- I agree with GaryFish. The biology of it explicitly shows that even though roosters will mate all hens possible, its the amount and quality of cover that dictates pheasant survival and numbers. Environments have a certain "quota" that they can reach and when they reach it, there isn't room for anything else. I personally think that small things can be done to increase habitat and thus pheasant numbers. Pheasants forever has uses a technique known as the habitat wheel. Look it up, its interesting and IMO very do-able.


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## Firstarrow (Sep 28, 2007)

I agree with the issues of habitat. In many, if not most areas of the state the ditches are being covered over and farmed with the increased introduction of sprinkler pipe.

There were studies done on chicks and hatch times. Many times in areas across the U.S. Chicks come off the nest very near the time of the first cutting of alfalfa. The mighty swather takes more birds across the us than any other predator. Not saying skunks, foxes, and hawks don't hurt the population, but it merits the question in all aspects of our lives be it, hunting, fishing, camping, working, or farming, "are we coming too efficient?"

I like the Aldo Leopold quote -


> "Like winds and sunsets, wild things were taken for granted until progress began to do away with them. Now we face the question whether a still higher 'standard of living' is worth its cost in things natural, wild and free. For us of the minority, the opportunity to see geese is more important that television."


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

I have guided on two different clubs, I promise you that the clubs are releaseing a lot more birds into the wild vs wild reared birds they are taking in to their possession. One club trys to maintain 1000 birds on their grounds, Then as groups of hunters come they release more than what are bought. Preditor control is high on their list, these clubs have none!!!! They also must give the DWR a percentage of the birds they raise. So, they release more birds into the wild, which in turn produce more wid birds that fly also to public land for Joe blow to hunt. They kill all preditors on site, which also means more birds survive, and to top it off, they give the DWR a lot of birds. The Dwr releases these birds, and gives more for Joe blow to hunt. So where is the down side of them taking occasional wild birds???? 1-deer, are you positive that hen was wild??? Isn't possible that she was a bird Russ had released????? Russ runs a top notch place, I have never guided there and owe him nothing. I guarantee he puts out more birds into the wild than what wild birds he takes.


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## BrittnLlew (Sep 27, 2007)

I agree with what has been said regarding the major factors that impact the pheasant population. Habitat and predation drive population dynamics. Personally, I feel that there is a predator that is grossly underrated: the feral cat. I have been seeing more and more cats in the areas I hunt. Last year I found a hen that had been caught/killed by a feral cat, then a few days later, in the same location and from across a field, I saw a cat put the stalk on another hen. He actually caught it while I was watching. Aside from these cats, raccoons also do their fair share of damage. 

While we don't have much control on farming practices (such as incentive to encourage private land owners to provide thick, grassy areas and wooded areas for cover), I think we could do a lot for the pheasant population by reducing the number of these predators. How many potential chicks were lost when those two hens became dinner for the cat (who, by the way, no longer roams those parts... :wink: ) ?


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Yeah I also agree with the predator side of things. The biggest offenders against pheasants where I hunt are 
1- Feral Cats (which don't slip past me)
2- Skunks, Mink, Racoons (hard to kill unless you trap or go out at night)
3- Foxes and coyotes (when seen they are out of shotgun range)
4- The ones we can't do anything about- birds of prey and magpies/ravens

My dad has told me that when he was a kid they would go out as a scout troop and rob magpie nests to heist their eggs! Would that be legal today?


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## duck jerky (Sep 8, 2007)

r u kidding. if there's no where for the pheasant's to live how is the population going to increasre. and like others have mentioned big problem with predators. just my 2 cents.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I guess the post I am really answering back to is Greenhead 2, I am fairly certain that the hen was wild, I know Russ, sorta, and I know he runs a top notch pheasant farm but it is'nt him who I am talking about the area I am talking about is one further down the river, where a lot of wild birds probably get shot. Anyway I would like to see the farms around wild birds realease there hens, not shoot hens, and have a shorter season.


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## brittonpoint (Oct 24, 2007)

The pheasant population will continue to decline for the main reason of lack of habitat and predators.

As for your suggestion of banning the shooting of hens on clubs, it appears you do not understand how these type of clubs work.

Keep in mind that is cost money to raise the birds from chicks, feed them all summer, maintain flight pens and keep predators in check.
Hunting clubs are run on privatly owned land and or leased property that is registered with the DWR, the only times hens can legally be harvested is on the private property, once these birds leave the property they belong to the DWR\State.
I do have a association with a club and have guided there for three years now, a rough estimate is nearly 15% of the average guys birds (rooster and hens) escape to the surrounding properties and once they are off the private land they can no longer be hunted outside of the state season.
The properties around the private lands benefit from the escaped birds, if they can avoid predators.
The DWR also requires a percentage of bird released to rebuild the population in any areas that hold resident pheasant population.
If you want pheasants in UT keep predators in check and keep enough "wild" habitat available for the hens to have a place to raise chicks.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

So basically what you just told me is, if there is a pheasant hen on my private land, that would give me the right to break the law and shoot it. :roll:


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## brittonpoint (Oct 24, 2007)

what I said is these are private lands *registered with the DWR for the express purpose of legally shooting privatly owned birds*.

If you shoot a hen on your own private property that hen does not belong to you, it belongs to the DWR therefore you would be poaching.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I know, my point is are we giving up the wild population for pen raised, ya a few might be released but they aren't wild birds any way you look at it.


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## brittonpoint (Oct 24, 2007)

I understand your point but all properties outside of the private clubs benefit with the influx of club birds. With the lack of habitat and predator issues the wild population can use all the help it can get. There may be a few wild birds killed on clubs but they will be replaced five to one by released birds. These birds will produce chicks and they will be wild. Right now there really isn't a viable solution to increase the proper type of habitat needed to rebuild the wild bird population. With modern farming practices and the housing boom, wild birds are in trouble.

The old days of pheasant hunting are for the most part gone, the die hards will find a few wild birds. I personally love to hunt pheasants and I would rather hunt all day in the muck, mud and crazy thick tamaracks for a couple roosters than shoot club birds any day, but there aren't a whole lot of wild birds left to hunt on public ground, and for some guys it can be just as fullfilling to spend a couple hours at a club and shoot alot of birds.
I take out alot of young kids , first time hunters, and "older" hunters and at the end of their hunt the smiles on their faces are reason enough for giving these hunters the chance to shoot a pheasant be it pen raised and or wild. Alot of these kids wouldn't get the chance otherwise to experience "OUR" sport. What better way to introduce a kid to hunting that shooting a rooster without the mud and muck.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

1eye, did you go to school in Richfield or Monroe??? Serious question.


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## Fishdog (Sep 10, 2007)

The number 1 problem we have is the lack of correct habitat. With the right habitat the wild birds can avoid the preditors. Because we don't have enough good habitat close second is the increase in raccons, fox and magpie. 

I grew up in northern utah county, in the late 60's and 70's you could expect to take a couple of limits of roosters during the season. When I was a kid racoons and foxes were almost unheard of now they're everywhere, and magpies were fair game. 

We can't move the homes off the hunting fields, however we can shoot every **** and fox we see.


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## Gumbo (Sep 22, 2007)

I agree that it would be a good thing to shut down the hunt "IF" there were also movements to increase habitat, agreements with farmers to leave some crops for the birds, provide for access for hunters, etc. There's a lot to be be done, and just not having the hunt for a few years wouldn't be enough.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Gumbo I 100% agree, there are other things to be done, and I feel the DWR needs to possibly stop the hunt for a year or two and require farmers to leave a certain amount of crop, such as a few rows of corn, alfalfa, etc., for the birds to survive on. I will admit I have cows out on some pasture and really don't do my part to keep a little grass left over for them but I plan on planting a patch of something next year for pheasants. I would just like to see this state be better with pheasants


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

The cool thing about pheasants and their cover is that its not too hard to get the right stuff growing. I have heard that on April 15 there should be at least 20 inches of good thick grass for hens to nest in. I don't know much about farming, but i would think that if you disked in some good grass seed in the fall, be it buckwheat or whatever would be taller than 20 inches, that you would have a perfect start for the following spring. As far as the winter time goes, some thickets of willow, or whatever else can give some good overhead cover would be perfect. It may take a few years to get established, but it would be beneficial. And its not like you have to take a lot of land out of farm production to do it. Even in the circular fields, there are corners that don't get mowed which could easily be planted. As i have mentioned before, PF has used a "habitat wheel" to increase viable pheasant cover without interrupting farming operations. All that is necessary is a central field, or hub, that doesn't need to be very big, to plant and never mow; a central "sanctuary" if you will, for birds to retreat to for roosting and protection. Each of these hubs has "spokes", or fencelines, field edges, and just thin strips of cover to provide traveling lanes back and forth from the hub to the grain fields and water sources. Yes, these hubs must be bought and maintained, same with the spokes, but CRP participation would provide for the minimal land used. Now the next problem, the future of CRP.


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## Gumbo (Sep 22, 2007)

If you're a land owner or know those who are, funds are available through the Utah DWR Habitat Fund for habitat cost-sharing projects to landowners willing to participate.

The DWR is implementing a new three-year pilot program for access to private lands in northern Utah. Under the new Walk-In-Access Program, the Utah DWR pays private landowners to allow public hunting of pheasants.

So it seems there's some benefits to landowners to be pheasant habitat aware.


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## Firstarrow (Sep 28, 2007)

There is also money available under a program to restore wetlands. If there is land with any water on it year round, then there can be $ available for restoration/ rehabilitation.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

So how do we encourage landowners to participate? What can we do as hunters to help? I'm not talking about paying for this or that, I'm talking about physical help. How can we get out there and get our hands dirty year round to ensure the future of pheasants and other wildlife in Utah? Does the Dedicated Hunter program reach out to small game as well? If not, maybe that's something that needs to be looked at.


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## dckhuntr (Oct 11, 2007)

just another thing to add but the developing of more and more houses also takes out the enviroment for these birds to grow.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

*****! *****, And COOOOOOONNNNSSSS! Then you have Birds of Prey! Then you have Lack of food and cover!
Name me some county in this state that has not decleared the Russian Olive tree a Nocious weed? And they are Dozing them, burning them and getting rid of the best winter food source for a pheasant!
I forgot to say how the NEW farmers farm also.... How many farmers are using a 1922 swather that missed more crop than it got? Remember what a ditch bank was? Everything in wheel lines, hand lines or giant pivots.... The machines of old had a hard time getting all the crop, now? They can cut every thing in a field in less time!

As far as Bird Farms hurting the wild birds? I agree with the other guy that said about the birds that get away. I see it every year when the day comes upon us. The lands around the farms are pounded! Good reason there is birds! and when them seasons are over the bird farms are still releasing birds and birds are still getting away and have a free time for a year. They do reporduce in the wild also.

In a perfect world kill all the Hawks! *****! Cats! and don't build the houses right in the middle of the fields!


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## grousehunter (Sep 11, 2007)

TAK said:


> *****! *****, And COOOOOOONNNNSSSS! Then you have Birds of Prey! Then you have Lack of food and cover!
> Name me some county in this state that has not decleared the Russian Olive tree a Nocious weed? And they are Dozing them, burning them and getting rid of the best winter food source for a pheasant!
> I forgot to say how the NEW farmers farm also.... How many farmers are using a 1922 swather that missed more crop than it got? Remember what a ditch bank was? Everything in wheel lines, hand lines or giant pivots.... The machines of old had a hard time getting all the crop, now? They can cut every thing in a field in less time!
> 
> ...


Amen :!:


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## duck jerky (Sep 8, 2007)

TAK said:


> *****! *****, And COOOOOOONNNNSSSS! Then you have Birds of Prey! Then you have Lack of food and cover!
> Name me some county in this state that has not decleared the Russian Olive tree a Nocious weed? And they are Dozing them, burning them and getting rid of the best winter food source for a pheasant!
> I forgot to say how the NEW farmers farm also.... How many farmers are using a 1922 swather that missed more crop than it got? Remember what a ditch bank was? Everything in wheel lines, hand lines or giant pivots.... The machines of old had a hard time getting all the crop, now? They can cut every thing in a field in less time!
> 
> ...


+1


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I agree with all of you on the predators. But there once was something I read in a wildlife magazine that said if a **** gets into a pen of pheasants he will kill as many as he can even all of them, while if a skunk gets in with a pen of pheasants he will only kill one or two, just enough to eat. ***** need to go, skunks to and any legally shootable predator of a pheasant. BUT WHAT I DON'T AGREE WITH IS ALL YOU GUYS THINKING THAT SO MANY OF THESE PEN RAISED BIRDS MAKE IT IN THE WILD. WAKE UP THEY HAVE BEEN TREATED LIKE AN OLD FASHIONED FARM CHICKEN IN CAPTIVITY. THEY MIGHT CAN FLY A LITTLE BETTER, BUT THEY'VE BEEN FED AND WATERED AUTOMATICALLY, HAD PROTECTION FROM THE PREDATORS YOUR TALKING ABOUT AND YOU THINK SOMETHING THAT KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THE WILD IS GOING TO SURVIVE AND REPRODUCE IN IT. THE ONLY GOOD HELP THERE DOING OUT THERE WHEN THEY ARE RELEASED IS BEING A MEAL FOR A SKUNK OR RACOON SO A WILD ONE WON'T HAVE TO. THAT IS THE ONLY UPSIDE TO PEN RAISED BIRDS BEING RELEASED I SEE, THERE A MEAL FOR SOMETHING SO THE WILD ONES WON'T HAVE TO BE.


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## brittonpoint (Oct 24, 2007)

+1 for TAK

I can tell you right now that the land surrounding the clubs will benefit from the pen raised birds and does, It takes very little time for the pen raised birds to "turn wild", they wise up quick. You are right that the predators will kill alot of the escaped birds but a portion do reproduce the following spring. We see 3 times the roosters in surrounding property in the spring than in areas with habitat that still hold wild birds.

The birds of prey are probably harder on escape birds than any other predator.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> I agree with all of you on the predators. But there once was something I read in a wildlife magazine that said if a **** gets into a pen of pheasants he will kill as many as he can even all of them, while if a skunk gets in with a pen of pheasants he will only kill one or two, just enough to eat. ***** need to go, skunks to and any legally shootable predator of a pheasant. BUT WHAT I DON'T AGREE WITH IS ALL YOU GUYS THINKING THAT SO MANY OF THESE PEN RAISED BIRDS MAKE IT IN THE WILD. WAKE UP THEY HAVE BEEN TREATED LIKE AN OLD FASHIONED FARM CHICKEN IN CAPTIVITY. THEY MIGHT CAN FLY A LITTLE BETTER, BUT THEY'VE BEEN FED AND WATERED AUTOMATICALLY, HAD PROTECTION FROM THE PREDATORS YOUR TALKING ABOUT AND YOU THINK SOMETHING THAT KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THE WILD IS GOING TO SURVIVE AND REPRODUCE IN IT. THE ONLY GOOD HELP THERE DOING OUT THERE WHEN THEY ARE RELEASED IS BEING A MEAL FOR A SKUNK OR RACOON SO A WILD ONE WON'T HAVE TO. THAT IS THE ONLY UPSIDE TO PEN RAISED BIRDS BEING RELEASED I SEE, THERE A MEAL FOR SOMETHING SO THE WILD ONES WON'T HAVE TO BE.


I could argue on this all night as from what I have seen with my own eyes.... Yes out of 100 birds 20 get it on the road, 30 by hawks, 15 by a **** and some by other causes, but I promise you I have watched many PEN BIRDS BREED AND RAISE THE CHICKS! Yes the % is low, and it is not the answer to the lack of birds in Utah. You need to understand also that ***** cause more problems during nesting time than they do during the adult hood of the bird. It is also proven if the bird had good cover, feed and water they will renest and get one batch in the air some day. 
If I can find the pictures I can show you some of the birds that was raised in a pen and made it through a bird farm season, and then raised young for the next year. Also I have some pictures of Black Roosters mating a Ring Neck hen and having some interesting birds, also a Half Reves Half Black Rooster... That one is mounted! 
I think one of the keys is not to raise them like a Old Farm Chicken... All summer I work dogs on the birds that made it through the season. You would be suprized what having COVER, FOOD and WATER does for even the pen birds. The Hawks move out during the summer and there is millions if not more **** hunters out where I live. I can say that I can walk a river bottom on the farm and not find one **** track!


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