# Mentor Program Changes



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I know there is already another thread about the proposed 2018 changes, but this topic never came up there and I felt it merited its own thread, as it is kind of a big deal. I was a little surprised nobody has mentioned this yet.

http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2017-11_rac_packet.pdf
Beginning on page 229 of the RAC packet you will find the proposed changes.

1-The biggest change is the mentor no longer needs to have the family relations that were prescribed before. Any hunter over 21 years of age can mentor a tag to any resident youth with written permission of the resident youth.

2-A mentor may mentor up to 4 youth on one tag.

There are other changes, but I thought those were the two biggest factors.

I am a big proponent of the mentor program. I feel it does a lot of good. But I am undecided how I feel about these proposed changes. I'm interested to see how others feel.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I've already talked with someone who is excited to "put his employees in" so his grandkids can hunt the tags. Write off the app fees as a business expense. And how can the UDWR ever know if someone "pays" another for the tag?

I also wonder how it will work with 5 guns in the field for one tag. They can be spread out a few hundred yards and still be able to communicate by hand signals.

I have used the mentor program since they started it and my kids have shot critters on mentor tags. These changes feel to go a little far is my first impression. I want to hear what others say too.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

While the concerns Packout listed are sure to happen, I also can think of a number of people who have a kid in their neighborhood/ward who wants to hunt but doesn't come from a hunting background and this would help with that type of mentorship. 

I think 4 youths on a single mentor tag is just a disaster waiting to happen though. Maybe allow 1 mentor/youth at a time, but the mentor and youth can surrender the youth's permit and obtain another for some other kid at any time prior to harvest.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I love how half of the proposed changes are due to perceived "overcrowding" issues, and then they propose something like this, up to 5 guns per tag.

Utah people are such suckers to buy into all these "Great!" changes that are just going to cause more issues down the road.

My dad told me once, "changes to systems very seldom work in your favor, someone else will get the benefit"


-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

How about we just jump to the end game, seeing as people can now pay to get their kid a tag from a non hunter who drew a tag.

How about we scrap all the draws entirely, scrap these new ways for people to game the system. We just go 100% dutch auction. You bid what you are willing to pay for a tag. The DWR just starts issuing tags from the highest bid on down until they run out of tags.


-DallanC


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Packout said:


> I've already talked with someone who is excited to "put his employees in" so his grandkids can hunt the tags. Write off the app fees as a business expense. And how can the UDWR ever know if someone "pays"


This...

I guess I should have my wife and daughter (both have zero interest in bg hunting) start building LE/OIL points. Find some kid who's dad has some $$...:shock:


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

gdog said:


> This...
> 
> I guess I should have my wife and daughter (both have zero interest in bg hunting) start building LE/OIL points. Find some kid who's dad has some $$...:shock:


Years ago there was a guy who's wife was at max deer points. He'd "sell" a spot to group with her on the app, and they'd turn her tag back in and get the points back. She had 2x the number of points required to draw the books so it was a guaranteed draw if you put in with her. He was getting several grand a year per applicant.

Once people found out about it they changed the rule so all the group had to return the tags for points.

What this change is going to do is blow up the draw points. We've already seen a big uptick in applicants after the mentor change, where people are putting in wifes, mothers, grandparents etc so "junior" can go hunt. We've also seen a drop in attrition, where people too old or physically unable to hunt quit... those people now keep going just to let junior hunt.

This will make things way way worse. Get ready for +15 year waits to draw LE deer tags, +30 years for elk.

-DallanC


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I don’t mind the first part, I don’t like the 4 youth to one tag change. It seems ridiculous to me. One tag, one youth to mentor is my feeling.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

I like the mentor program, and have used it this year (although my son typically has more tags than I do). That being said, I think extending beyond family relations and the terminally ill might be taking it too far. Not sure though, I need to think about this.

I do like the idea of mentoring a tag to multiple youth. I'll have two youth hunters in the family next year, and it would be nice to have them both on the tag, taking them out different weekends. As they get older, it's harder to pull them out of school, so if one had a school commitment they couldn't get out of, but the other one was available, take him instead. A lot more flexible. Mentoring a single tag to 4 youth is a little much, but 2 seems reasonable.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Is this valid for non-residents too?


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

brisket said:


> I like the mentor program, and have used it this year (although my son typically has more tags than I do). That being said, I think extending beyond family relations and the terminally ill might be taking it too far. Not sure though, I need to think about this.
> 
> I do like the idea of mentoring a tag to multiple youth. I'll have two youth hunters in the family next year, and it would be nice to have them both on the tag, taking them out different weekends. As they get older, it's harder to pull them out of school, so if one had a school commitment they couldn't get out of, but the other one was available, take him instead. A lot more flexible. Mentoring a single tag to 4 youth is a little much, but 2 seems reasonable.


You still couldn't harvest more than a single animal correct? How do make them chose because of course they are both close enough to communicate with they should both have the same opportunity

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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

weaversamuel76 said:


> You still couldn't harvest more than a single animal how do make them chose because of course they are both close enough to communicate with.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


They can both shoot at the same animal, or take them out different weekends independently.

In my case this year I mentored my bison tag to my son mainly for follow up shots (as I've heard it typically takes multiple shots to take one down). If the stars align and we have one within 300 yards that is isolated from the herd and there is no question which one we are both shooting at. I plan to take the first shot, and he can then put one or two into it to help bring it down. If I had two children of age, I would take whichever one was available that weekend and have them help shoot the bison.

I see your point though, it could get out of hand with multiple animals being shot on one tag, but that is still the case with the current system.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm sorry that I did not give a full and detailed description of every single change in my post, but I figured posting the actual proposal with the page number it started on would lend to the details being read there and I didn't need to fully re-hash what is already written. There is a misunderstanding here on what this does based upon the responses, and I'd suggest everyone actually read the proposal before formulating too strong of an opinion either way. 

To clarify, the mentor may still only actively mentor one youth in the field at one time. And only one mentored youth may carry a legal hunting weapon at one time. So while you can name 4 youth, it would be under circumstances like brisket explained in taking one youth out one weekend, and another the other, etc. This will not LEGALLY lead to 5 people carrying a gun at one time into the field on one tag. 

The mentor program will still require the mentor to be present on the hunt. So while there will absolutely be those that try to game the system and do illegal things, I'm not as worried about co-workers and write offs as some might be. There will be those willing to try to game the system or flat out break the law regardless of what the law is, so those are not necessarily the things I focus on with changes like this. 

As stated, I really like the mentor program. I like that if this passed I would be able to mentor my tag to a niece or nephew, not just my children. I can also appreciate the situation johnnycake mentioned where I could see a time where I would love to take someone from my neighborhood, or a friend's kid, etc. etc. etc., and this could be a very positive thing in many circumstances. But even good things can become bad when they are taken too far. And I'm still undecided on this one and whether I think this goes too far or not. Tough call. I'm leaning towards liking it, but still unsure.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I've "mentored" 3 kids on separate archery hunts, but it was before the DWR program started. They hunted on their own tags. I met them while I was an instructor in the NASP program and took them with me on general season hunts, with parental permission. The first 2 were a lot of fun. The 3rd not so much. He sliced his hand open on a broadhead and his mother was (understandably) absolutely livid. She was also flat broke. So guess who paid the medical bill. I don't take unrelated kids with me anymore.

What the proponents of these changes might be forgetting is that Utah code requires that any adult who is in close contact with unrelated minors must undergo a background check, regardless of parental permission. I'm no lawyer, but since this is a DWR program, I assume that the DWR would be responsible for keeping records of mentor BCI checks.

That said, I like the intent of these changes. There are lots of kids who aren't lucky enough to have family to take them out. Too many of them, actually. But I think this program invites more trouble than it's worth.

Year's ago, there was some discussion about establishing a pool of certified mentors. Certification would provide a framework for background checks and liability insurance. I suspect such a pool would be the way to go. But would enough of us volunteer for such a pool?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Finnegan said:


> What the proponents of these changes might be forgetting is that Utah code requires that any adult who is in close contact with unrelated minors must undergo a background check, regardless of parental permission. I'm no lawyer, but since this is a DWR program, I assume that the DWR would be responsible for keeping records of mentor BCI checks.


I know of no such law, and in general, I do not believe this is the case. But I'm open to being educated. Can you provide the code section?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I've had both my girls take part in the mentor program and I am against the new proposals. 

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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> I've had both my girls take part in the mentor program and I am against the new proposals.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Why? Did you read the actual rules or Vanilla's last post were he actually explained the new changes better? Basically making all the above posts non issues.
The mentor has to be in the field with the mentored.
Up to 5 mentores on the application but only one hunting at a time.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

muddydogs said:


> Why? Did you read the actual rules or Vanilla's last post were he actually explained the new changes better? Basically making all the above posts non issues.
> The mentor has to be in the field with the mentored.
> Up to 5 mentores on the application but only one hunting at a time.


I read all of the posts and don't care for the proposal changes!

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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Let me see if I have this straight. Theoretically, a youth could hunt/harvest 6 buck deer, 6 antlerless deer, 6 bull elk, 6 cow elk, 6 buck pronghorn, 6 doe pronghorn, 6 bull moose, 6 cow moose, 6 Rocky Mountain Bighorn rams, 6 Rocky Mountain Bighorn ewes, 6 Desert Bighorn rams, 6 Desert Bighorn ewes, 6 Rocky Mountain billies, 6 Rocky Mountain nannies, 6 bull bison, 6 cow bison, 6 cougars, 6 bears, 6 turkeys (or 12?), 12 greater sage grouse, 12 sharp-tailed grouse, 36 bobcats, and numerous other "protected wildlife", all without buying any licenses or tags and without using up any points or incurring waiting periods or OIL rulings. Yahoo! Let's get on with it! That's only 150 or so animals that he/she wouldn't have to pay to hunt and, after all, we do need a generation or two of entitled new trophy hunters in order for the system to work, don't we?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

brisket said:


> In my case this year I mentored my bison tag to my son mainly for follow up shots...
> I plan to take the first shot, and he can then put one or two into it to help bring it down.


Is this how the mentor program works? Does it allow for two hunters to both carry a firearm and shoot under a single tag?

I thought that it still meant only 1 person may shoot at an animal.
If it is the case that "party" hunting may happen, and multiple people can shoot under a single tag, then I don't like it. This just introduces the potential for problems (ie: multiple dead animals and only 1 tag).


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Both the mentor and the mentee may carry a weapon, and either may kill an animal on the tag. But still only one animal. So yes, the mentor program invites party hunting.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Yes PBH, thats how it works. 

Party hunting perfectly legal under the mentor program. 

Im against the proposed changes,
Makes it worse.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

PBH said:


> Is this how the mentor program works? Does it allow for two hunters to both carry a firearm and shoot under a single tag?


"Both the adult mentor and minor may carry firearms in the field, and either the mentor or the minor may fill the permit. However, only one animal may be harvested per permit."

https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in-utah/161-hunting/1332-utah-hunter-mentoring-program.html


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

We already had a great mentor program: Youth hunts.

Take your kid, or your friends kid, to hunter safety. I would be more inclined that we offer free hunter safety and have loads of volunteers for youth who do not have parents that hunt. Same way I feel about CC/Open Carry... probably don't want you being Walker Texas Ranger when you may have never shot a handgun before, or any gun for that matter.

We have so many small game/waterfowl opportunities, as well as a TON of archery and other youth opportunities (hunting all 3 seasons) that apply.

Never been a huge fan of the mentor program, and that is just me personally. I think hunter safety should preface any in-field action. The "trial hunter program" just doesn't make sense to me. *Try-before-you-buy should not apply to FIREARM SAFETY.*

I get it, others have different opinions.. Again, if this is to "mentor" and "try" hunting, I do not think that LE hunts, or OIAL hunts should be part of it. I respect those that do, I just do not see these as the optimal times to "try", I see it more as a workaround. I have reasons but no need to rant.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Maybe it isn't related.. but thinking about hunter safety and putting in a little effort reminded me of taking my OHV class as a kid, as well as my kids doing it. Funny you HAVE to have that before riding in public, but you don't have to have hunter safety to use a weapon in public.


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## BeaverDam (Mar 29, 2017)

When we were kids (post 1965?) we still went hunting, even if we didn't have tags. We learned from the adults, and enjoyed our time afield even though we weren't 14 years old yet. The anticipation of being old enough to legally carry a rifle kept us interested. We took hunters safety, paid for tags, and contributed to the hunting system just like any other hunter did. If it was ok for my generation to take hunters safety first and contribute license and permit fees back then, than why is it not ok now. Take your kids with you and make it enjoyable and they will want to hunt later in life. It is really that simple. I doubt any of us needed a special program to become interested in hunting. And yes I do have kids and yes I will put them through hunters safety first before taking them afield.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> We already had a great mentor program: Youth hunts.
> 
> Take your kid, or your friends kid, to hunter safety. I would be more inclined that we offer free hunter safety and have loads of volunteers for youth who do not have parents that hunt. Same way I feel about CC/Open Carry... probably don't want you being Walker Texas Ranger when you may have never shot a handgun before, or any gun for that matter.
> 
> ...


"We already had a great mentor program: Youth hunts."
And considering that all youth up to age 16 already have to be accompanied by an adult/mentor, this mentor program doesn't improve anything in that regard.

...."I do not think that LE hunts, or OIAL hunts should be a part of it."
I made this point at the Southern RAC meeting when the program first came out by stating that it was opening a can of worms, but was ridiculed and later labeled as a "devil's advocate". Point creep, increased competition for those tags, the grooming of more trophy hunters, mentor hunts used (and paid for) for publicity by 3rd parties (conservation organizations, magazines, guiding services, video producers, photographers, Expo promotors and vendors, etc.), the push for more Conservation and Expo tags and further regulations promoting those hunts at the expense of general hunts, are some of the worms now squiggling in the can trying to get out. Even though I don't think we need it, I would be ok with a mentor program for general hunts, but not for those hard-to-get tags. We just can't afford it!


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

elkfrom- a youth can only be mentored on one permit for each species per gender. So I can mentor my son during the anyweapon hunt and my wife can not mentor him because he is already mentored on my tag.

The hard thing for me is still allowing non-family or non-lifethreanted illness kids to be mentored in this program. That feels rife for abuse. But maybe I'm wrong.


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## BeaverDam (Mar 29, 2017)

I think that elkfromabove's idea of free hunters safety makes far more sense than legalized party hunting. I could get behind that idea.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

BeaverDam said:


> When we were kids (post 1965?) we still went hunting, even if we didn't have tags. We learned from the adults, and enjoyed our time afield even though we weren't 14 years old yet. The anticipation of being old enough to legally carry a rifle kept us interested. We took hunters safety, paid for tags, and contributed to the hunting system just like any other hunter did. If it was ok for my generation to take hunters safety first and contribute license and permit fees back then, than why is it not ok now. Take your kids with you and make it enjoyable and they will want to hunt later in life. It is really that simple. I doubt any of us needed a special program to become interested in hunting. And yes I do have kids and yes I will put them through hunters safety first before taking them afield.


I grew up at the same time. During that time all someone had to mention was if I wanted to go hunting with them, I would leap at the chance and have my sleeping bag packed and ready to go. Now days the kids could care less, it is a sad fact but it is.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Also , in that 'same time frame',
You had to be 16 to hunt big game.
Not 14.........which totally SUCKED!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

We shouldn't confuse the mentor program with the trial hunter program. While the two may be used in conjunction with one another, they are not the same program. 

I am still undecided how I feel about these proposed changes. I know, make a decision already...right? I guess that tells me that I'm just not comfortable with them and should just bite the bullet and say that I think these changes takes the program too far. I really WANT to like them, I just can't get there yet. 

As for why the DWR chose to want these programs, I guess there could be a lot of reasons. First and foremost, they get another $10 out of every permit that utilizes the program. So while probably not a ton of money, they are getting some increase. And expanding the program to allow any adult to mentor any youth, and have up to 4 youth on each tag, that will only increase that extra revenue. 

It was also mentioned about how in the "good old days" we didn't need these programs to keep people interested. Well, that may be true, but they also had 200,000 hunters and the culture around hunting was completely different. This also probably weighs heavily on the minds of wildlife managers, knowing that without hunter retention and recruitment, they will have zero ability to properly manage the wildlife. 

I could go on, but it is not necessary. These are all the reasons I really want to like the new proposal. It has potential to be a good thing. But I think it may just go a little too far.


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## JC HUNTER (May 18, 2015)

I've never used the mentor program but I don't see anything wrong with these changes. I can see where someone might take advantage of the system, but overall I see this as being a positive.



Finnegan said:


> *Year's ago, there was some discussion about establishing a pool of certified mentors... But would enough of us volunteer for such a pool?*


 I really like the idea of having a group of mentors available for the youth and even adults that don't have someone to show them the ropes. I would even be okay if they offered hours towards the dedicated hunter's program to get more people to volunteer. I also think there is a lot more that could go into these mentor programs than taking someone out and shooting an animal. There could be classes designed on helping people learn how to glass, how to age deer, find bedding areas, locate feeding areas, how to gut or quarter a deer, processing an animal and the list goes on. I think a lot of these things should be done before anyone pulls the trigger on an animal to find out if they like hunting or not. I would even be okay if they created a 5 class program that covered these things and if the student completed the classes then they would be guaranteed a tag for the fall. maybe throw in a stipulation that you could participate as much as you would like, but you would only receive the guaranteed tag on your 1st time completing the courses. I've been hunting for several years and I would still be interesting in attending classes that covering these things.


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## BeaverDam (Mar 29, 2017)

I agree that things were different in years past and that the general attitude toward hunting in our state (and country) is very different now than it was 30 or 40 years ago. I just cant help but believe however that if parents just took their kids outdoors things would be different. From what I see its not so much that kids don't want to be outdoors as much as they are following the example of their fathers who don't take them hunting, fishing, or camping. For the most part this doesn't apply to this crowd on this forum, we seem to participate at a higher rate than many others. But that's what I observe and don't know that any youth program is going to fix that. I do applaud the state for trying to pass on the traditions to the next generation, but I would like to see kids understand that it all costs money and that everybody needs to contribute to make that happen. It doesn't seem fair that a kid who takes hunters safety has to pay for a tag while a kid who doesn't take the course gets to party hunt for free. I sure wish that the elementary schools could just have it as an option to take the course at the school and get kids excited about hunting that way.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> We shouldn't confuse the mentor program with the trial hunter program. While the two may be used in conjunction with one another, they are not the same program.


If they have hunter safety, why not "mentor" them on their own tag????

If they don't, why are we putting "safety" on the back-end of "recruiting hunters". It is a silly compromise.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I have seen almost just the opposite.

I know kids from "hunting" families. Families that used to take their kids out hunting and fishing every chance that they got. When it came time for the kids to get deer or elk tags the parents footed the bill for the tags and the draws. When it came time for the hunt the parents took the time off of work and pulled the kids out of school for a couple of days to take them out to get them their buck, cow, or bull. 

Guess what? Those same kids could care less about hunting. They rather sit at home and play with the games on the phones or portable game stations. You ask them if they would like to go out for a weekend and they want to do something else. I even saw on kid after he had killed his cow elk just sit in the trailer figuring that what was expected of him was done and wanted to go home to take a shower.

We have raised a bunch of entitled kids to follow in our foot steps. Everyone is a winner and everyone get to participate. There are no looser and no effort is needed to gain your trophy, just show up. 

However there are exception to every rule out there. Yes, there are still kids that can't sleep on that opening night of the hunt even if they are now only 12. They will go on to hunt everything that they have a tag for and when they don't have a tag they will tag along just encase granddad needs a hand dragging out that 2pt buck. They will still jump at a chance to just go out into the wilds tag or not. 

When it first started I wondered just where the mentor program would go. I have seen it work the way that it was intended and I have seen some abuse of it. But the trouble is that no matter what the DOW does it really isn't going to change the kids minds on just what they want to do on a weekend in the fall of the year. 

Just yesterday I went out with a father and a daughter here in Colorado. The young lady was 12 years old and told here dad that she wanted a tanned elk skin for her bed. She said that she wanted to shoot it and help in any way that she could. Well after a 1 1/2 mile hike through 6" of snow we topped a small hill to see the small herd of elk just below us. She aimed the 7mm-08 and pulled the trigger before either I or her father told he what to do. She is now a proud owner of a green elk skin soon to be sent to the tannery for a hair on tan. Being just 12 she hasn't discovered boys yet, but I am sure that when she does those young men and going to have a hard time finding her on a weekend when hunting season comes around.

And this is in a state without a mentoring program such as Utah's.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

hmmm. I (obviously) hadn't read the mentor rules. I'm actaully disappointed knowing that both mentor and mentee are allowed to carry and shoot on 1 tag. For some reason, I'm just not comfortable with that. At the same time, we are just legalizing what most father's and grandfather's are doing in the field anyway (eg: allowing their kids / grandkids to pull the trigger).


Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm not real comfortable with kids not going through hunter safety carying a weapon either. I feel if they haven't gone through hunter safety they shouldn't be hunting. 

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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

My kids are die hard hunters and have been shooting bows since they were 4 years old. They shoot at least once a week year round. In the winter months they shoot 4 to 5 times a week. They shoot rifles, shot guns and pistols as well. I wouldn't let my kids carry a rifle or pistol by themselves with me on a mentor tag. My rifle will be in the truck and I would be carying the rifle and hand it over to the youth. 
Way to many things can go wrong in untrained hands. 
On our goose hunts my kids don't carry their shotguns until we are in the blind. They are cased. It's even cost us geese because we weren't prepared. However they are still safe and we are able to still hunt another day. I will allow them to carry a bow with me though. 

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> If they have hunter safety, why not "mentor" them on their own tag????
> 
> If they don't, why are we putting "safety" on the back-end of "recruiting hunters". It is a silly compromise.


Why not mentor them on their own tag? Tough to do if they did not draw their own tag.

Again, people are confusing the trial hunter program with the mentor tag program. Not the same thing.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

PBH said:


> hmmm. I (obviously) hadn't read the mentor rules. I'm actaully disappointed knowing that both mentor and mentee are allowed to carry and shoot on 1 tag. For some reason, I'm just not comfortable with that. At the same time, we are just legalizing what most father's and grandfather's are doing in the field anyway (eg: allowing their kids / grandkids to pull the trigger).


I was against it initially too... primarily because it now let grandpa who is too old to hunt and otherwise would have stopped putting in for the draw, to keep going and let junior use the tag. It retains the competition for tags and lowers the attrition rate.

That said, they passed it... sooo might as well take advantage of it.

This year it worked out in a good way, my boy shot a cow elk hitting it and it leaped into some thick oak brush out of sight. Due to the tag being in my name and him having the mentor tag. I left him sitting where he shot watching one escape route with my wife, while I hiked up another 75 yards to watch another escape route not visible from that position. I figured the elk was probably dead... but when I got a clear look up the other side, sure enough the cow was standing there looking woozy. I put one more in her and she went down for good. My boys shot was just a bit low, but I was able to legally help with a followup shot and prevent what might have been a escaped wounded elk.

I'm really really against this new change, because in effect its now opened the door to selling tags. We've had people game the system before using loopholes to get tags, but this is the most blatant non-loophole legalization of selling tags yet.

All we need if this passes is just a lifting of the age limit and anyone can buy tags, every year.

And as far as I know, there is no waiting period for mentor tags... so you can buy one every year and hunt. Rich people are going to LOVE hunting every year in Utah.

-DallanC


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I can live with 4 youth on one tag as long as there are no more than 2 guns in the field at a time. There is no way that you could coordinate 5 guns well enough to ensure that no extra animals will be taken. Besides, doesn't the word mentor infer personal interaction?

1 tag=1 mentor+1 mentoree.

What started out as a cool program will surely be taken too far. Like DC, I have enjoyed the program with my kids just fine in its original form.-------SS


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

BeaverDam said:


> I think that elkfromabove's idea of free hunters safety makes far more sense than legalized party hunting. I could get behind that idea.


Thanks for the credit, but it was RandomElk16's idea which I only quoted. However, I could also get behind it.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Packout said:


> elkfrom- a youth can only be mentored on one permit for each species per gender. So I can mentor my son during the anyweapon hunt and my wife can not mentor him because he is already mentored on my tag.


I'm not sure if you're just having fun with us, or if you misunderstand the proposal, but the species per gender (actually: sex) refers to the gender of the wildlife species, not the mentor(s). :grin:

In other words, the youth can hunt two animals of the same species as long as one is male and the other one is female.

However, I'm not sure how that applies to a hunter's choice tag or tags that allow you to shoot 2 does. (Just a couple more worms!)


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> And as far as I know, there is no waiting period for mentor tags... so you can buy one every year and hunt. Rich people are going to LOVE hunting every year in Utah.-DallanC


What mentor tags are you referring to? As I understand it there are no mentor tags to be purchased, the tag used is a regulate hunting tag that was drawn or purchased along with all the other tags. The owner of said tag signs up for the mentor program. There are no special tags for this mentor program.

Also how are people going to be able to purchase then sell tags as mentor tags? The rules on the mentor program state that the mentor and mentored must remain close enough in the field to communicate via voice or hand signals, no electronic communications. Kind of precludes 90 year old wheelchair bound grandpa X from getting a tag and selling it. But hey if X can still get to the woods and roll around in his chair to mentor a youth then more power to him.

I think some of us need to read the rules and try a little reading comprehension before we go passing bad information.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Muddydogs -- I'll pay you $1,000 to register my kid under your tag as a mentor.
Then, I'll pay Vanilla $2,000 to register my kid under his tag as a mentor the next year.
And then I'll pay SS $3,000 to register my kid under his tag as a mentor the next year.
I like hunting with you guys. And I don't mind road hunting either.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> Muddydogs -- I'll pay you $1,000 to register my kid under your tag as a mentor.
> Then, I'll pay Vanilla $2,000 to register my kid under his tag as a mentor the next year.
> And then I'll pay SS $3,000 to register my kid under his tag as a mentor the next year.
> I like hunting with you guys. And I don't mind road hunting either.


PBH, I'll take your kid road hunting for free. No need to pay me. I have a lifetime license too, so I'm guaranteed to draw. PM me for details. Of course, I do charge a Utah Wildlife Network PM processing fee that will apply, but the mentor experience will be totally free.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Of course, the facetious scenario PBH points out how one could be paid is specifically prohibited under the proposed rule, but I'm sure there will still be people to try it. Can't stop people from breaking the law...some just can't help themselves.


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

PBH said:


> Muddydogs -- I'll pay you $1,000 to register my kid under your tag as a mentor.
> Then, I'll pay Vanilla $2,000 to register my kid under his tag as a mentor the next year.
> And then I'll pay SS $3,000 to register my kid under his tag as a mentor the next year.
> I like hunting with you guys. And I don't mind road hunting either.


Ya I get that and some people will try but the whole sky is falling and this is going to mess up the point system because the old guys are going to keep putting in for points so they can sell there tags isn't sound reasoning.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Why not mentor them on their own tag? Tough to do if they did not draw their own tag.
> 
> Again, people are confusing the trial hunter program with the mentor tag program. Not the same thing.


Elk is OTC every single year.

They set aside deer tags specifically for YOUTH.

So no, I don't buy it being hard to get them their own tag. If the mentor is able to get one, chances are so was the youth. (If you don't put them in for a youth tag, then put in as a group). Also, I am not confusing the two. I am 100% against the trial, but if they do not fall under that category that means they have hunter safety. That means they can get their own tag. If you read the posts, you wouldn't be confused that I am not confused. Hope that confusion is no longer confused.

Edit: Just looked. The youth archery tags that went unsold was over 2000. I stopped counting. 29 different units.

Keep in mind it is the 8th of November. There were more available back in July, and even more in the draw. It is not hard to get a youth a tag, especially with 5 choices.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

RE16,
You cant mentor general season permits. 
Pretty sure only LE and OIALtags can be mentored.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> RE16,
> You cant mentor general season permits.
> Pretty sure only LE and OIALtags can be mentored.


"Eligible permits include general season, limited entry and once-in-a-lifetime big game permits and all antlerless big game permits."

Edit: https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in-utah/161-hunting/1332-utah-hunter-mentoring-program.html


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> Elk is OTC every single year.
> 
> They set aside deer tags specifically for YOUTH.
> 
> So no, I don't buy it being hard to get them their own tag. If the mentor is able to get one, chances are so was the youth. (If you don't put them in for a youth tag, then put in as a group).


You can not buy it all you want, it doesn't make you right. I get it that there are lots of opportunities, and I've never said that there were not. But what if someone is not interested in elk hunting? What if someone simply wants to rifle deer hunt with their kid, and nothing more? A neighbor of mine mentored his Wasatch West rifle tag to his 14 year old son that did not draw the tag this year, but had drawn last year. He has hunted with his dad, who is a fairly new big game hunter himself, but has dove head first in and really put a lot of time into learning, and then teaching his son about hunting. The boy killed his first buck this year on the mentor tag. I'd call that a resounding success!



RandomElk16 said:


> Also, I am not confusing the two. I am 100% against the trial, but if they do not fall under that category that means they have hunter safety. That means they can get their own tag. If you read the posts, you wouldn't be confused that I am not confused. Hope that confusion is no longer confused.


You may very well understand the difference in the programs, but your statements certainly muddy the waters between the two. This thread is not about the trial hunter program or any changes proposed to it. Hopefully that clears this up for you.

And goof, mentor tags apply to all big game permits. (and maybe a lot of non-big game permits next year)


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> You can not buy it all you want, it doesn't make you right. I get it that there are lots of opportunities, and I've never said that there were not. But what if someone is not interested in elk hunting? What if someone simply wants to rifle deer hunt with their kid, and nothing more? A neighbor of mine mentored his Wasatch West rifle tag to his 14 year old son that did not draw the tag this year, but had drawn last year. He has hunted with his dad, who is a fairly new big game hunter himself, but has dove head first in and really put a lot of time into learning, and then teaching his son about hunting. The boy killed his first buck this year on the mentor tag. I'd call that a resounding success! This is a great story. I still stand by the fact a youth can get a tag. You can call me wrong all you want. Not only can they get a tag,
> but they have a higher probability over any adult at acquiring a tag. This is a fact. So call that wrong I guess?
> While this is a great story, the same story could be told the next season with the kid having his own tag. If they are picky that they want one unit,
> one species, and one weapon... then I don't feel bad. We all dream of that. Again, the kid has better odds at that. As you mentioned, he had the tag the year before. You highlighted a big reason why this is meant to be, and is actually what I disagree with. Opportunity. It isn't the opportunity to hunt,
> ...


See Red. I am simply having a discussion. I said it from the get go I respect others disagree. The thing I do not respect is disagreeing that youth do not have more opportunity for tags than adults. It just isn't true.

Again, if you like the program, great. The forum isn't here for all of us to agree about everything. I hope people use it the way I do, and look at different angles and opinions. If only the wildlife board was open to listening, we would have better regs.

Edit: I want to add one thing about your story. I love seeing youth have an opportunity to harvest. I learned more hunting with my dad, brother, grandpa, uncles, etc... NOT having a tag while I was young. Harvest shouldn't be the point. The kid could have gone with dad and still learned alot.

I also learned a ton about hunting and firearm safety with a good ol shotgun. You can spend so much time in the field after birds and learn so much. So is the point opportunity, mentorship, safety and sport... or is it simply to harvest big game?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Interesting, 
When we used the mentor program in 2013 and 14, I'm pretty sure GS and antlerless permits were NOT included in the mentor program.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> See Red. I am simply having a discussion. I said it from the get go I respect others disagree. *The thing I do not respect is disagreeing that youth do not have more opportunity for tags than adults. It just isn't true.*


Who said the bolded section above that you are arguing against? I have not ever seen anyone say that or make that argument. Maybe I missed it, as I don't always read every post in longer threads when I come back to catch up.

There are a myriad of reasons why people to hunt where they do, or why someone would be "picky" as you put it. These particular people iI referenced chose this unit because it is close to home, and they can get hunting days in after work/school during the week. I get it, you don't feel bad for anyone that isn't willing to hunt every species or every weapon on any unit in the state. I wish I had that kind of freedom and flexibility. I envy your situation.

And I 100% disagree with your suggestion that this situation goes against the mission statement of the mentor program. This situation is EXACTLY what the mentor program is designed to do.

From the DWR website itself:

_"The Utah Hunter Mentoring Program is a big game hunting program that allows a young person to share a mentor's big game hunting permit. The program is meant to:

-Recruit young hunters
-Educate novice hunters about hunting ethics and safety
-Encourage hunting as a family activity

Through the program, you can help build the next generation of Utah hunters and teach them to be safe and thoughtful in the field."_


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Interesting,
> When we used the mentor program in 2013 and 14, I'm pretty sure GS and antlerless permits were NOT included in the mentor program.


Nope, they have always included those permits. To my knowledge, these proposals will be the first changes of any kind since the program went into effect.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> Edit: I want to add one thing about your story. I love seeing youth have an opportunity to harvest. I learned more hunting with my dad, brother, grandpa, uncles, etc... NOT having a tag while I was young. Harvest shouldn't be the point. The kid could have gone with dad and still learned alot.
> 
> I also learned a ton about hunting and firearm safety with a good ol shotgun. You can spend so much time in the field after birds and learn so much. So is the point opportunity, mentorship, safety and sport... or is it simply to harvest big game?


Harvest is absolutely the goal for all of us. It does not define success or a good time, but it definitely is the goal we all have if we go into the field with a tag in hand. Yes, you can learn a lot and have a heck of a time when not possessing a tag. In fact, some of the most fun hunts I've ever gone on I did not have a tag at all, but was helping others that did. I learned a ton about elk hunting by helping out three years in a row on LE elk hunts with family and friends. But harvest is absolutely the end goal. Even for you.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Funny how those who put in the effort, year after year, post up successful hunting stories/pics with their kids....without having to have special "mentor" tags.

Little Johnny doesn't need to shoot a +350 bull or OIL species to learn how to hunt or to decide he/she likes to spend time outdoors. If it's truly an issue with tag availability and opportunity, then just allow it for GS tags only and keep LE & OIL tags out of the mix.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Harvest is absolutely the goal for all of us.


The goal when you have a tag, of course. In Mentoring, I think the goal is to teach them about safety, nature, ethics, and get them to love hunting like we do. I think they can do this with or without a tag.

My top 3-5 hunts, I didn't even have a tag.

I do get it, I just see so many opportunities for abuse. If they took out the LE and OIAL, I could get on board. I think if it was straight GS you remove a lot of these concerns/abuse reservations people (including me) have. Some may say why this and not that.. I don't think premium hunts are where we need to mentor. I also am really opposed to having 2 hunters on one tag of this caliber.

I also would be more inclined if mentoring was a one time/one year opportunity.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

gdog said:


> If it's truly an issue with tag availability and opportunity, then just allow it for GS tags only and keep LE & OIL tags out of the mix.


gdog, I'd be okay with this. ^^^

But it looks like the intent of the DWR is expand the program, not restrict it.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> gdog, I'd be okay with this. ^^^
> 
> But it looks like the intent of the DWR is expand the program, not restrict it.


It doest mean it will pass

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> Interesting,
> When we used the mentor program in 2013 and 14, I'm pretty sure GS and antlerless permits were NOT included in the mentor program.


THATS the huge issue I have with all of these changes. Its a camel's nose under the tent scenario. The door gets cracked open, then when no-one is looking it gets opened further and further. Next thing you know, the system supports things you never dreamed of.

But... I will state right now I'm willing to buy a mentor tag for my boy for the bookcliffs next year. Anyone with a wife, sister, grandmother or whatever banking points let me know, lol... its going to be the future of utah hunting.

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

muddydogs said:


> Ya I get that and some people will try but the whole sky is falling and this is going to mess up the point system because the old guys are going to keep putting in for points so they can sell there tags isn't sound reasoning.


The system has been in place long enough now that we can start to measure the change in attrition rate. You are nuts if you dont think this will make a difference. Some of these draw units offer only a dozen tags. Remember the old people had the most points, and they are the ones to skew the top tier numbers the most.

Just judging by friends and inlaws I've talked to, quite a few started putting in other family members again who had already quit due to health reasons. Now ole grandpa can just sit in the truck sipping on a soda and listening to Chris Ledoux while the youngsters hunt for that bison / moose / deer / elk... whatever.

Remember, the regs say you have be able to communicate, using hand signals is A-OK! Its interesting that they dont allow radio communication, but that you can see hand signals several miles with a good spotting scope. Its perfectly legal for bedridden grandma to sit in camp and junior to be several miles away, as long as he can still see grandma wave a hand.

-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Dallan makes a valid point,
This change will knock the door wide open to the 'pimping ' of permits.

AND how more applications will be in the system with people that normally would not apply.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

muddydogs said:


> What mentor tags are you referring to? As I understand it there are no mentor tags to be purchased, the tag used is a regulate hunting tag that was drawn or purchased along with all the other tags. The owner of said tag signs up for the mentor program. There are no special tags for this mentor program.
> 
> Also how are people going to be able to purchase then sell tags as mentor tags? The rules on the mentor program state that the mentor and mentored must remain close enough in the field to communicate via voice or hand signals, no electronic communications. Kind of precludes 90 year old wheelchair bound grandpa X from getting a tag and selling it. But hey if X can still get to the woods and roll around in his chair to mentor a youth then more power to him.
> 
> I think some of us need to read the rules and try a little reading comprehension before we go passing bad information.


While there are no mentor tags per se, OTC tags (elk, leftover deer, some cougar, some bear, some turkey, and bobcat), all Conservation tags, some depredation tags, Landowner tags, and some CWMU tags can be purchased EVERY year without waiting periods and then USED as mentor tags, so, yes, the wealthy are gonna love it.

The rule reads: "The Hunting Mentor receives no form of compensation or remuneration for sharing the permit with the Qualifying Minor." It doesn't say anything about the Qualifying Minor or his parents receiving compensation for sharing the permit nor does it prevent compensation to either or both the Mentor and the Qualifying Minor by a 3rd party for the rights to the story of the hunt, pictures, videos, mounts, skins and skulls, etc. for purposes of public relations, advertising, promotions, etc. If there is money to be made from this program (and there is), you can bet that there are people out there who have already figured it out.

And 90 year old wheelchair bound grandpa X can sit, strapped in, on the front passenger seat of the truck or jeep, while his grandson or his grandson's girlfriend shoots from the hood or bed. Also, the last time I checked, you can see hand signals from a long ways away if you have a good pair of binoculars.

Like I said, a can of worms!

Edited: I see that some of you already made my points before I got this finished and posted, so I'll just say amen to yours!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Another loophole. The current rule states:



> If the mentor harvested the animal, the minor may surrender the shared permit and re-apply to be mentored under another big game permit.


So the "mentored" just needs to say his mentor shot the animal and he can go get another tag for the same species, that same year. A kid could, if he had enough mentors lined up, to shoot a dozen LE bulls in the same year. It would only cost him $10 per new permit.

-DallanC


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Haven't read all the posts, but after reading the opening post, this is a bad idea...


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> The system has been in place long enough now that we can start to measure the change in attrition rate. You are nuts if you dont think this will make a difference. Some of these draw units offer only a dozen tags. Remember the old people had the most points, and they are the ones to skew the top tier numbers the most.
> 
> Just judging by friends and inlaws I've talked to, quite a few started putting in other family members again who had already quit due to health reasons. Now ole grandpa can just sit in the truck sipping on a soda and listening to Chris Ledoux while the youngsters hunt for that bison / moose / deer / elk... whatever.
> 
> ...


Well I don't think it will be as bad as your stating but then again nothing supersizes me anymore. I would think that with some wording change the DNR could fix this. Guess it needs to go back to only family can mentor.

I just see this mentor program as a good deal in this day and age where kids are busy in after school sports and spend way to much time playing them stupid electronic games. The program gives a grandpa like me a chance to get the grand kid out hunting early without a bunch of points but then again I'm thinking that I could plan my cow points right so the first year the grand kid could harvest my cow I wasn't thinking some grand limited entry once in a life time buck or bull hunt.
Hell I guess I had better get on the ball and be putting the wife in for points so the grand kids could use her tags instead of mine.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

muddydogs said:


> Well I don't think it will be as bad as your stating


You obviously don't remember that guy who had been putting his wife in for hunting points and was selling spots to "party group" with her. She had max points, 2x the points required to pull bookcliffs tags each year, which meant anyone that did the party app with her was guaranteed a tag. He would turn her tag in after the draw, get the points back and do it all over again the next year. He was getting 5k a pop IIRC.

Its obvious how this can be exploited. Why even open the door to more exploiting?

-DallanC


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

DallanC said:


> You obviously don't remember that guy who had been putting his wife in for hunting points and was selling spots to "party group" with her. She had max points, 2x the points required to pull bookcliffs tags each year, which meant anyone that did the party app with her was guaranteed a tag. He would turn her tag in after the draw, get the points back and do it all over again the next year. He was getting 5k a pop IIRC.
> 
> Its obvious how this can be exploited. Why even open the door to more exploiting?
> 
> -DallanC


DANG! That's a heck of an idea. I just have my wife racking up deer points while I wait for my elk. I never even thought about her turning it back in every year 

Oh, and uh... top of the page!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

RandomElk16 said:


> DANG! That's a heck of an idea. I just have my wife racking up deer points while I wait for my elk. I never even thought about her turning it back in every year


That particular loophole got closed after more than a few people were taking advantage of it. They closed it by now requiring the entire party to turn in their tags to get the points back.

But alot of smart people have been banking points for their non-hunting spouses for decades now, so they can average with their wives to score a second good LE / OIL tag. I have two neighbors within 4 houses of me, one's wife is in the top tier of points for LE elk, the other's wife is 1 year behind. They could draw any unit in the state right now.

**Dont forget some of us here have been watching the draw for 30 years or more now. We've seen what bad changes can do, how people exploit the system.

-DallanC


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I simply don't understand how a system allows a person to potentially harvest 2 "once in a lifetime" animals. Either eliminate that from the mentor program or require the youth to forfeit that option for the rest of their life like the rest of us by participating on that tag. To be honest, I see no reason this should be allowed on anything other than general season hunts. I love the idea of any child we might have hunting but they should not get special privileges on OIL or LE hunts. Its not needed and actually conflicts with educating them about real world stewardship.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

backcountry said:


> I simply don't understand how a system allows a person to potentially harvest 2 "once in a lifetime" animals.


Do you meany any two OIL animals? Or multiple tags of a single species? Either way it can go like this.

Example of a super rich hunter:

Year 1: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
Year 2: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
Year 3: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
Year 4: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
Year 5: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
Year 6: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
Year 7: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
Year 8: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
... repeat forever.

or

Year 1: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
Year 2: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Bison Tag.
Year 3: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on MtGoat Tag.
Year 4: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Sheep Tag.
Year 5: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose Tag.
Year 6: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Bison Tag.
Year 7: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on MtGoat Tag.
Year 8: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Sheep Tag.
... repeat forever.

or

Year 1: Buy CWMU Moose Tag.
Year 2: Buy CWMU Moose Tag.
Year 3: Buy CWMU Moose Tag.
Year 4: Buy CWMU Moose Tag.
Year 5: Buy CWMU Moose Tag.
Year 6: Buy CWMU Moose Tag.
... repeat forever.

There is no limit for the number of OIL tags a person can have. There is a limit on the number of times you can DRAW a tag however.

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

*** forgot sportsmans tags... a super duper lucky guy could draw all the oils every year forever. Statistical probability of that though is near zero, but the system allows it.


-DallanC


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Yes meant same sex/animal, sorry for lack of clarity. 

And my same critique goes for Sportsmans Tag and Expo tag, which I haven't researched much about due to limited expendable income. It goes against the North American model in my opinion to favor the rich for increased access, though I think that is more explicitly the case for the Expo tag. I understand the fundraising side but I've seen enough evidence to question our dependence on such secondary fundraising because of its long term impact on budgets (it often suppresses budgets which increases need for such aid). 

I don't know as much about CWMUs and don't have the bandwidth to deal with complexity of public resources on private land right now.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

DallanC said:


> *** forgot sportsmans tags... a super duper lucky guy could draw all the oils every year forever. Statistical probability of that though is near zero, but the system allows it.
> 
> -DallanC


DallanC, Sorry, but even I have to call you out on that one. Since the Sportsmans tags are in the PUBLIC DRAW, they fall under the OIL rules, only one per OIL species PUBLICALLY DRAWN in your lifetime. However, you could still draw another in the PRIVATE Expo draw or buy one from an auction or CWMU (moose) or you could even draw more than one species in the Sportsmans draw, but you'd still have to be super duper lucky or wealthy to do any of those too.

But when it comes to mentoring, a mentored youth could hunt and harvest up to 12 of EACH OIL species (1 male and 1 female per year for 6 years) without using points he'll need for his own OIL tags.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> DallanC, Sorry, but even I have to call you out on that one. Since the Sportsmans tags are in the PUBLIC DRAW, they fall under the OIL rules, only one per OIL species PUBLICALLY DRAWN in your lifetime. However, you could still draw another in the PRIVATE Expo draw or buy one from an auction or CWMU (moose) or you could even draw more than one species in the Sportsmans draw, but you'd still have to be super duper lucky or wealthy to do any of those too.


Whoops, you are correct. I was thinking you could draw multiple OILs in that year.

-DallanC


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Whoops, you are correct. I was thinking you could draw multiple OILs in that year.
> 
> -DallanC


You CAN draw more than one OIL in any one year if they are different species but you can only draw that/those species once in your lifetime in the public draws.

In any case, it's the mentored youth that doesn't have to be super duper lucky or wealthy. They just have to know who was super duper lucky and make some kind of deal/arrangement.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I get it that people are against this program, and I understand some of the concerns. I too am not comfortable with the expanded rules being proposed. 

But goodness guys, let's at least stick to the facts! You don't get to average with anyone and jump to the front of the line and qualify for a guaranteed OIL hunt. There is some potential for that in the other LE hunts if you're an archery hunter and willing to hunt a non-premium unit. 

There has been at least 3 different concerns people have hammered on that are already against the law as things currently stand. If people are going to break that law, then why do we think they won't break other laws to accomplish their purposes? 

Again, I can see why people are not comfortable overall with the program. But facts and reality are still kind of important.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> But goodness guys, let's at least stick to the facts! You don't get to average with anyone and jump to the front of the line and qualify for a guaranteed OIL hunt. There is some potential for that in the other LE hunts if you're an archery hunter and willing to hunt a non-premium unit.


That was a specific example of how other people exploited the system in the past for their gain.

In this case you are right, you dont need to average, or draw or anything. With this change you just need a suger daddy willing to shell out some $$$ and buy a mentor spot with someone who has a tag.

Judging by the kids my boy goes to highschool with, those that all got $50k trucks when they turned 16 (couple dozen), there are alot of dads around with alot of cash to blow.

This is currently limited to family members, with that restriction being lifted, anyone in the youth age group can get a tag from anyone willing to sell.

Would you sell your LE bull tag for $50k? Some sure as hell will. Once they do, how many more people will start putting in every relative they can find with the hopes to sell tags down the road.

The guy 2 houses up from my dad just got married. He blew over $1,000,000 on the wedding party a few weeks ago. Some people have crazy money, give them an opportunity to spend it, and they will. In this case it will be detrimental to the common guy, who will be competing with even more people in future draws.

-DallanC


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Would you sell your LE bull tag for $50k? Some sure as hell will.
> 
> -DallanC


20 moose points...let the bidding begin:shock::mrgreen::shock:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Like I said before dallanc, what you’re proposing is already against the law. Paying someone to mentor their tag is illegal. Not sure what else I can say?


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

For 50K you could hunt a really good CWMU for 5-6 years in a row and likely kill a whole pile of really nice Bulls. 

Undoubtedly any loophole provided will get taken advantage of.........even by those who are against it.-------SS


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

For $50k, I'll take a Stone Sheep hunt. Forget about a bull elk...


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Judging by the kids my boy goes to highschool with, those that all got $50k trucks when they turned 16 (couple dozen), there are alot of dads around with alot of cash to blow.


Wow.

That's sure a sexist comment. Not sure why you don't think moms don't have cash to blow these days. Let me guess: those kids are probably republicans too? And I'll bet half of those "boys" are probably really _questioning_. It's a new world hombre.

Really, my only issue is the party hunting aspect. That just doesn't sit well with me.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Sexist, not really. Just traditional thinking...

And yes, I wish I had a "sugar momma" ;-)


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Well, so far, both the Central RAC and the Northern RAC have passed it as presented.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

DallanC said:


> Do you meany any two OIL animals? Or multiple tags of a single species? Either way it can go like this.
> 
> Example of a super rich hunter:
> 
> ...


or

Year 1: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose tag, Bison tag, MtGoat tag, DBH Sheep tag, RMBH Sheep tag, LE Elk tag, LE Deer tag, LE Pronghorn tag, Bear tag, Cougar tag.

Year 2: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose tag, Bison tag, MtGoat tag, DBH Sheep tag, RMBH Sheep tag, LE Elk tag, LE Deer tag, LE Pronghorn tag, Bear tag, Cougar tag.

Year 3: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose tag, Bison tag, MtGoat tag, DBH Sheep tag, RMBH Sheep tag, LE Elk tag, LE Deer tag, LE Pronghorn tag, Bear tag, Cougar tag.

...... repeat forever. :grin:


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

And you could do that every year without the mentor program in existence. So....

What’s the point?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

It was all in response to my curiosity how a OIL tag could be obtained twice because of how a youth could use their mentor's tag without being disqualified from lotteries in the future. I still stand behind that being a problem of the mentor system that needs to be ended.

I would say the same thing for the options other have listed but those are best discussed in different threads.

I just believe the demand is too high to allow anyone more than one harvest with such a tag. These systems require user trust which is dependent on equity and the highlighted options undermine that variable.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I would be fine if they required the youth mentored to forfeit points and be subject to waiting periods on LE and OIL hunts. That way they have some skin in the game too. No reason to restrict LE and OIL, just make the rules apply equally across the board. 

And I do NOT plan on mentoring my LE elk tag to anyone, I don’t care how pretty my daughter’s smile is! They each can wait 20+ years like I am. But I’ll mentor my Lifetime deer license every year my daughters (and soon to be nieces and nephews) do not draw a tag. 

Thinking about it, I may not shoot a deer again for a really long time.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I should clarify I dont so much care if / how kids use the mentor system, but rather the unintended consequence of making additional reasons for more people to apply for the draws. I want to see LESS competition in the draws not more. This change will make it harder to draw and require more time to draw, because of more competition from wifes, grandparents, aunts, sisters etc being put in.


-DallanC


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

But to be fair, the entire purpose of the mentor program equates to increased pressure on the draw. The agency wants more stakeholders. 

I am not convinced that is a healthy or appropriate response given the ease of tag access to youth, in relationship to adult draws. I think the current population of hunters is clearly more than the wildlife can sustain (or why else have a lottery?). Thinking to the future is important but I'm also not convinced that we won't have enough younger hunters to maintain funding and interest well into the future as most people I know are multi-generation hunters already. 

Adding a trial hunter and mentor program (past tense) seems overkill and provides more loopholes, as others have pointed out. Expanding those just continues to exacerbate the issue in my book. The fact is, people have mentored new hunters for generations without requiring special perks and status. 

I am debating attending my local RAC but to be honest my past experience at them wasn't very encouraging. It was years ago but it was rather raucous and not the most inviting atmosphere to bring up such a stance. 

At the end of the day I just prefer systems that are simple and elegant and don't provide favoritism when it comes to highly competitive resources. This seems to be adding unneeded complications and bloat which just feeds into a lack of trust and equity.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I understand the concern regarding increased pressure on the draws. If they tweaked it and required any youth being mentored to be subject to waiting periods, that would take them out of the draws entirely for OIL and for 3 or 5 years for LE hunts. That would help alleviate that concern. 

But again, the goal seems to be to expand the program, not restrict it. So I’m not sure how realistic that idea would be.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

elkfromabove said:


> or
> 
> Year 1: Attend Wildlife Expo, be top bidder on Moose tag, Bison tag, MtGoat tag, DBH Sheep tag, RMBH Sheep tag, LE Elk tag, LE Deer tag, LE Pronghorn tag, Bear tag, Cougar tag.
> 
> ...





Vanilla said:


> And you could do that every year without the mentor program in existence. So... What's your point?


10 tags X 4 youth per tag = 40 kids per year who can not only do what I or you could do with those tags, ie: HUNT, but who will get a free tag, will remain in the draw pool adding to the point creep and can also get a bonus point for that species also adding to the point creep, 3 things which I or you can't do.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> But again, the goal seems to be to expand the program, not restrict it. So I?m not sure how realistic that idea would be.


Very true. Being relatively new to hunting I'm still discovering all these types of details. Often threads like this just give me a chance to play with ideas before I fully commit to them.

At the end of the day I'll make the most of whatever system exists and advocate my opinion when allowed.


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## RG the OG (Oct 31, 2016)

I know that this program is meant to help kids get out and get a chance to hunt, but as others have said it causes point creep on tags that are hard to draw ie limited entry and OIAL. Also I believe this program promotes people who would not be putting in to throw their name in the hat so that youth can use their tag. I propose that we restrict this program to general season, and antlerless tags only. This would still give youth opportunities to get out and hunt more, but it would lead to less point creep in the hard to draw hunts. I don?t like that a program meant to help youth could be causing youth to take 40 plus years to draw a tag.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

elkfromabove said:


> 10 tags X 4 youth per tag = 40 kids per year who can not only do what I or you could do with those tags, ie: HUNT, but who will get a free tag, will remain in the draw pool adding to the point creep and can also get a bonus point for that species also adding to the point creep, 3 things which I or you can't do.


This just simply is a misrepresentation of the system. Part of it isn't even factually true. Usually your posts are level headed and well thought out, even when I don't always agree with them. With all due respect, you've flown the coop this one. And I even agree they shouldn't expand the mentor program!


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

One general observation on this topic.

In my observations over the years of how people go about changing DWR regulations in Utah, it seems that when *adults* want things changed for *their* benefit, they frequently invoke the line that their actions are "for the children". I've seen this with people fighting to loosen up restrictions on fishing regs and it is certainly being invoked here. However, it is the adults that often are the real beneficiaries and the true benefit to kids is sometimes questionable at best. I would submit that the direction of some of these mentor program changes could be in this category.

FWIW, I like(d) the original mentor program and thought it was a good idea. However, like some of you, I am leery of where these changes seem to be heading with the proposed revisions.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I said it before and I'll say it again. 
Nothing more than legalized party hunting, IMHO.
Man, I've been killing the "top of page" lately.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Vanilla said:


> This just simply is a misrepresentation of the system. Part of it isn't even factually true. Usually your posts are level headed and well thought out, even when I don't always agree with them. With all due respect, you've flown the coop this one. And I even agree they shouldn't expand the mentor program!


Well, sir, I'll admit to intentionally pushing the envelope some on the possibility of such a scenario happening, but it was done tongue-in-cheek, thus the smiley face. However, legally, it certainly is possible. And whether 1 individual buys those 10 tags every year or whether 10 individuals each buy 1 of those tags every year, from those 10 tags, every year there could well be 40 mentored youth who HUNT, but who don't buy the tag, who remain on the public draw lists, who don't incur a waiting period, and who can get an OIL or LE Buck/Bull bonus point and preference/bonus points for buck deer, antlerless deer, antlerless moose, doe pronghorn, bear, cougar, turkey (and soon to be RMBH ewe and DBH ewe) no matter what tag(s) they share with the mentor.

Yes, I know they could do most of that now, but with this proposal it is much easier to accomplish and the number of species and tags has grown and the criteria changes for eligibility of the mentor and youth has opened a wide door that invites possible abuse (at worst) and many more applicants (at best) into a draw system that is already way overloaded with requests for tags and calls for fixes that exacerbate the problem. It's a can of worms that keeps growing!


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

What happens when they can't draw when they hit 18? We lose them anyways.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Meh, they usually discover boobs around then either way and their interests get diverted.


-DallanC


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Meh, they usually discover boobs around then either way and their interests get diverted.
> 
> -DallanC


Boobs? Never heard of 'em. What are the draw odds and when is the season?


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Boobs? Never heard of 'em. What are the draw odds and when is the season?


Depends...you looking for LE or OIL pair or just general?


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

I'm in my thirties and I have yet to "discover" them in Utah. Pretty sure they aren't legal game though:










Is it unusual that just shy of half the hunters I know are women?


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## callofthewild (Sep 7, 2007)

gdog said:


> Depends...you looking for LE or OIL pair or just general?


can one get a sportsman's or govenor's tag for these?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

callofthewild said:


> gdog said:
> 
> 
> > Depends...you looking for LE or OIL pair or just general?
> ...


Yep,
But it will cost you $$$$$.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

DallanC said:


> Meh, they usually discover boobs around then either way and their interests get diverted.
> 
> -DallanC


Yeah, but on top of that, most of us are too broke to keep hunting at about that age. I have 3 different friends who have expressed an interest in hunting, but they've all balked when I told them they need a $38 license, let alone all the other gear. The cost of it all is pretty hard to justify when you're struggling through a college degree, or working for peanuts while you try to build a career right out of high school.

Not hard to see why girls become a more attractive option for most, IMO (although I'm convinced they're still more expensive in the long run).


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Clarq said:


> Not hard to see why girls become a more attractive option for most, IMO (although I'm convinced they're still more expensive in the long run).


I don't know about that. By the time you take a young lady out to dinner and a movie once a week or try to wine and dine here doing other things you will quickly figure out that hunting isn't that expensive.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

Critter said:


> I don't know about that. By the time you take a young lady out to dinner and a movie once a week or try to wine and dine here doing other things you will quickly figure out that hunting isn't that expensive.


Ever heard of Tinder? Kids do things a little differently these days...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Clarq said:


> Ever heard of Tinder? Kids do things a little differently these days...


^^^ This post wins the internet today.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I guess that I am just a old fart that spent all his money on the date when I went out when I was a kid and didn't expect anything different.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Back on track! The Mentor Program passed as presented at the Southern RAC 9 to 1. That's 3 for 3 yes's at the RAC's so far. I was the only one who commented and I opposed it as presented, (I asked them to leave it as is, but remove the LE and OIL hunts.) but only 3 RAC members even questioned it and only 1 voted no. It was pretty much a slam dunk to pass 'cause it's for the children, don't you know?

The DWR printed a copy of the power points which includes a list and circle chart of the permits that have been shared since it started in 2014:

List
Poaching reward------------- 1
Management----------------- 3
Multi-season LE-------------- 3
Expo-------------------------- 6
Private Lands---------------- 7
Conservation----------------- 12
Premium LE------------------ 12
Once-In-A-Lifetime---------- 16
Mitigation--------------------- 64
Control------------------------ 70
CWMU------------------------- 101
Dedicated Hunter------------- 168
Limited Entry------------------ 173

Circle Chart
Antlerless Deer---------------- 16
Antlerless Elk------------------ 142
Bull Elk------------------------- 358
Buck Deer-------------------- 1,214

Total-------------------------- 2,379 permits (not youth)

That equals 793 permits per year with current restrictions, ie: family members only, one registered youth at a time, big game only, youth having to turn in duplicate tags. Can you image the number of youth we'll now accommodate? The DWR presentation says 700+. Dah, it's already 700+. 

Edited: Oh, and let's not forget the current 40# bow restriction now dropped to 30# specifically to get more youth onboard. Couple that with unlimited archery elk tags with hunts that happen during the archery deer and archery pronghorn hunts and spike hunts on LE elk units along with Extended Archery elk and deer hunts until December. Overcrowding? Ya think?


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