# Big Cotton Wood



## stevedc (Jun 23, 2008)

Sorry about the big cotton wood canyon mix up i was misinformed thanks for all the feed back


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

You heard wrong. And no, it wouldn't be good. The reason the hunting is good up there is because nobody has popped a cap in a long time. Wanna ruin the front, allow firearms. :x


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> You heard wrong. And no, it wouldn't be good. The reason the hunting is good up there is because nobody has popped a cap in a long time. Wanna ruin the front, allow firearms. :x


+1


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

No, you herd wrong!

There are NO rifles allowed and they will never be allowed if I have anything to do with it.


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## quakeycrazy (Sep 18, 2007)

Rifles on the Wasatch= big problems. I still remember about 6 years ago they offered very few cow rifle tags to help keep the elk in check, the hippies just about sharted themselves in anger...... I don't see a day they will ever open the wasatch front up to rifles.


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## TheMtnGuide (Aug 27, 2008)

Not a chance......The only time you can use a rifle is if you draw a Moose or Mountain Goat tag for the Wasatch. I heard from a Fish & Game Officer that some 17 year old kid shot a 36 inch buck with a survival 22 rifle up Big last year. Apparently he had his bow with him but decided to put a bullet between the buck’s eyes and then proceeded to cut its head off and hide the head & antlers. I guess the fish & game checked the kid when he took the buck out and didn't put two and two together until a bunch of people called in claming to have seen this kid shoot this buck. The fish and game said they didn't take the kid in when they first stopped him because he had proof of sex on the animal but they thought it was unusual that the body was so big and he didn't have the head with it. Anyway he got busted and once again some jack*** poaches another great buck. So to answer your question NO not ever especially with the amount of people that use those canyons for recreation.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

quakeycrazy said:


> Rifles on the Wasatch= big problems. I still remember about 6 years ago they offered very few cow rifle tags to help keep the elk in check, the hippies just about sharted themselves in anger...... I don't see a day they will ever open the wasatch front up to rifles.


I hunt the Wasatch Front with a rifle all the time. Its great. But with all the slobs around on the rifle hunt, yeah its probably best that the SL county portion remain closed to firearms. Also, the hippies are gonna be pizzed because they're doing that cow hunt again this year :shock:

My personal opinion is that they should adopt a LE muzzleloader hunt for the Salt Lake unit. There are a lot of deer in this unit and they are WAY underutilized.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> My personal opinion is that they should adopt a LE muzzleloader hunt for the Salt Lake unit. There are a lot of deer in this unit and they are WAY underutilized.


You're on GLUE! We finally have a good deer herd that isn't a LE unit and the first thing you wanna do is go in there with rifles (yes, todays muzzle loaders are rifles) and shoot all the good bucks. The herd on the front it right where they want it as far as numbers and buck to doe ratios go. Leave it ALONE! :evil:

You wanna talk underutilized resources, go to ANY LE elk area and look around at all the 380+ bulls that are going to winter kill. Utah is WAY to stingy with their elk tags. Especially in regards to archery hunters. LE has NO place on the Wasatch Front. :evil: The day they start making that a draw hunt is the day I quit hunting big game in this retarded state.


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## bow hunter (Sep 11, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > My personal opinion is that they should adopt a LE muzzleloader hunt for the Salt Lake unit. There are a lot of deer in this unit and they are WAY underutilized.
> 
> 
> You're on GLUE! We finally have a good deer herd that isn't a LE unit and the first thing you wanna do is go in there with rifles (yes, todays muzzle loaders are rifles) and shoot all the good bucks. The herd on the front it right where they want it as far as numbers and buck to doe ratios go. Leave it ALONE! :evil:
> ...


+1


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## quakeycrazy (Sep 18, 2007)

El Matador said:


> quakeycrazy said:
> 
> 
> > Rifles on the Wasatch= big problems. I still remember about 6 years ago they offered very few cow rifle tags to help keep the elk in check, the hippies just about sharted themselves in anger...... I don't see a day they will ever open the wasatch front up to rifles.
> ...


That would be cool for those that draw but I don't see it happening as much as I would love to shoot a big guy during the rut up there!


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

quakeycrazy said:


> That would be cool for those that draw but I don't see it happening as much as I would love to shoot a big guy during the rut up there!


I do believe that's a distinct possibility already....


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > My personal opinion is that they should adopt a LE muzzleloader hunt for the Salt Lake unit. There are a lot of deer in this unit and they are WAY underutilized.
> 
> 
> You're on GLUE! We finally have a good deer herd that isn't a LE unit and the first thing you wanna do is go in there with rifles (yes, todays muzzle loaders are rifles) and shoot all the good bucks.


The Salt Lake unit IS a limited entry unit. It is limited to archery hunters only.



> The herd on the front it right where they want it as far as numbers and buck to doe ratios go.


Where did you hear this? The herd on the Salt Lake unit is about 40% above its objectives for population and buck to doe ratios.



> The day they start making that a draw hunt is the day I quit hunting big game in this retarded state.


Making the unit a draw is not a good idea. Adding some ML tags that would be given out in the draw is a good idea. It would provide another hunting opportunity close to the Salt Lake valley, it would reduce competition for other LE tags, and it would not have a noticable effect on the number of bucks you see during the rut.


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## MarkM (Sep 7, 2007)

I remember they let Muzzleloaders hunt up there one year during the same time frame of the rifle hunt several years ago. I think they only let them do it for one season back in like 1999 or 2000. I was at the RAC meeting that fall after the hunt was done and there were several landowners and other people that use the Wasatch front and they were not happy to see firearms alowed up the canyons. It was kind of funny, a couple people said they had no problems with the archery hunters but they did not like seeing people up ther with guns.

Mark


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## quakeycrazy (Sep 18, 2007)

Riverrat77 said:


> quakeycrazy said:
> 
> 
> > That would be cool for those that draw but I don't see it happening as much as I would love to shoot a big guy during the rut up there!
> ...


sorry I should have added with a muzzleloader


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

quakeycrazy said:


> sorry I should have added with a muzzleloader


  :lol: Sorry, its the smart azz in me I guess. I knew what you meant.... I kinda talked to a guy I went hunting with on the opener about this too and he echoed the same sentiment as these other fellas. The big deer are up there because they're hard to hunt and they don't have folks poking at them from long range (well, at least no nearly as effectively) with rifles for a few weeks. I could see how that would lead to some pretty nice deer getting cleaned out pretty quickly. I'm sure all the animal lovers up there would scream bloody murder as well if all of a sudden the hills were filled with gunshots.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> The Salt Lake unit IS a limited entry unit. It is limited to archery hunters only.


And that's the way it should stay.

You wanna hunt it, get a bow. Hell, the guys at FMP are killing them out to 130 yards. Who needs a muzzy season when you can kill em like that with a fancy pants speedbow. :?


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> You wanna hunt it, get a bow.


I don't want to hunt it. And I already have a bow. Even if there was a ML season up there I wouldn't hunt it. But I've lived in that unit most of my life and I know what goes on there. I know the deer are under-utilized. I saw at least 15 different 4-point bucks in my yard last year, and I doubt if any of them will ever be harvested. One was around 180". Having a ML hunt before they all come down would NOT effect the deer population as much as you think. What it would do is offer another opportunity for people to use a resource that is currently not being used anywhere near its potential. I think a ML hunt would benefit both hunters and wildlife, so that's why I offered it as my opinion. I am sorry if you viewed it as a selfish idea aimed to reduce the quality of "your" hunt in order to improve my own.

By the way, TEX, don't you hunt with EPEK all the time? Nobody would ever take a muzzleloader where he takes his bow, so I don't know why your even worried.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Here is the STATS on the Wasatch SL unit.

Objective: 2,000
Population in 2006: 2,813

Buck/doe ratio Objective: 15-20
2004: 29/100
2005: 37/100
2006: 38/100

3 yr ave 35/100

According to experts this unit needs to have a lower buck to doe ratio because with a higher buck to doe ratio then you have less fawn recruitment. Yes the SL unit lacks a lot of habitat. I think they should have a draw for an additional number of ML tags to get the buck to doe ratio down like Finnegan posted on the Premium units.

The wasatch is no different than the premium units. Its no different from the Henry Mtns population and buck/doe ratio wise.


*Henry Mtn Stats*

Objective: 2000 deer
Population in 2006: 900


Buck to doe ratios
2004: 41/100
2005: 48/100
2006: 37/100

3 yr ave. 42/100

The Henry Mtn buck to doe ratio looks higher than the Wasatch because they have 900 deer compared to 2,813 deer. In reality they both have close to the same number of bucks.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

El Matador,

I'll be over later to get a stand set up in your living room. 

Brian


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> You're on GLUE! We finally have a good deer herd that isn't a LE unit and the first thing you wanna do is go in there with rifles (yes, todays muzzle loaders are rifles) and shoot all the good bucks. The herd on the front it right where they want it as far as numbers and buck to doe ratios go. Leave it ALONE!


Isnt this basically what trophy hunters are telling meat hunters who want to take LE units away??? BTW the population is at least 800 deer over objective and 10/100 buck to doe ratio higher. I dont know where you got your numbers



> You wanna talk underutilized resources, go to ANY LE elk area and look around at all the 380+ bulls that are going to winter kill. Utah is WAY to stingy with their elk tags. Especially in regards to archery hunters. LE has NO place on the Wasatch Front. The day they start making that a draw hunt is the day I quit hunting big game in this retarded state.


Big bucks die every year on the Wasatch/SL unit because they arent being harvested.

Archers get to hunt a unit that is almost as good of quality as the Henry mtns every year so I don't think they should be complaining to much.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

MarkM said:


> I remember they let Muzzleloaders hunt up there one year during the same time frame of the rifle hunt several years ago. I think they only let them do it for one season back in like 1999 or 2000. I was at the RAC meeting that fall after the hunt was done and there were several landowners and other people that use the Wasatch front and they were not happy to see firearms alowed up the canyons. It was kind of funny, a couple people said they had no problems with the archery hunters but they did not like seeing people up ther with guns.
> 
> Mark


It was actually for two years. My buddy drew it the first year and I drew it the second. That was the end of it and we each killed nice buckies. I would rather leave it the way it is right now and not compete with a guy with a muzzle loader. I had a ball while it lasted but have had loads of fun with my bow since then too.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Archers get to hunt a unit that is almost as good of quality as the Henry mtns every year so I don't think they should be complaining to much.


Who's complaining?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Who's complaining?


uhhhh maybe YOU if they allowed a Limited amount of ML tags on the unit. The ML hunters could help bring the buck to doe ratio down since its over objective by at least 10/100 does.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Who's complaining?
> 
> 
> uhhhh maybe YOU if they allowed a Limited amount of ML tags on the unit.


I know that I would. It was no fun at all when my buddy had the tag. I would camp with him, hunt with him and watch him get the best opportunity while I stood there with a stick flipper in my hand after hiking a huge mountain along side of him to see him have the upper hand.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

elk22hunter said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > > Who's complaining?
> ...


I bet you could get an arrow knocked before he loaded his front stuffer. Just take the first shot.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I know that I would. It was no fun at all when my buddy had the tag. I would camp with him, hunt with him and watch him get the best opportunity while I stood there with a stick flipper in my hand after hiking a huge mountain along side of him to see him have the upper hand.


Well they could make it a 7 day hunt and the archers already have it until the end of November. I bet this is just like a slice of heaven to hunt a unit like the Henry mtns for 3 months.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Well they could make it a 7 day hunt and the archers already have it until the end of November. I bet this is just like a slice of heaven to hunt a unit like the Henry mtns for 3 months.


I see your logic but I also see that this it a great archery "only" unit. I would be bothered if I had been working a buckie for several weeks and then a muzzle loader came in and whacked him from 175 yards when every one knows that I am only lethal with my bow up to 120 yards. :mrgreen:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I see your logic but I also see that this it a great archery "only" unit. I would be bothered if I had been working a buckie for several weeks and then a muzzle loader came in and whacked him from 175 yards when every one knows that I am only lethal with my bow up to 120 yards.


Well isnt that part of hunting? If you are working him for several weeks then are you making jerky before you shoot him. Im kiddin I know what you mean.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

Here we go again....LOL Let's argue about whether or not we should allow a muzzy season up Big Cottonwood, because that'll happen. What a hoot! Guys I hate to point this out, but with the current slob status that some of the archers that hunt this unit seem hellbent to maintain, there is NO way that there will be a muzzy season. Residents in the Millcreek area already want this unit closed to hunting period. 
Can you imagine what kind of media issues are going to arise the first time some punk kid with a muzzleloader cuts through someones back yard? Or better yet, shoots an elk right there on the hillside within sight of a millcreek or canyon subdivision? (and yes I'm very aware that technically they would be breaking the law, considering Salt Lake City ordinances dictate that NO firearms are to be discharged within one mile of city limits) 
But I can't help but feel like the Salt Lake unit is already under fire every year (which is why we all have to take the educational online course each year), and I'll be surprised if it even remains open to archers for another 10 years. This is a GREAT unit, and even as an archer I personally wouldn't have issue with sharing it with the blackpowder guys, but for political issues, it won't EVER happen. And if for some reason it did, it will only take one idiot to spoil the whole thing. (and unfortunately there seems to be a never ending list of young or socially unconscious people applying for the idiot position every year)


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Here we go again....LOL Let's argue about whether or not we should allow a muzzy season up Big Cottonwood, because that'll happen. What a hoot! Guys I hate to point this out, but with the current slob status that some of the archers that hunt this unit seem hellbent to maintain, there is NO way that there will be a muzzy season. Residents in the Millcreek area already want this unit closed to hunting period.
> Can you imagine what kind of media issues are going to arise the first time some punk kid with a muzzleloader cuts through someones back yard? Or better yet, shoots an elk right there on the hillside within sight of a millcreek or canyon subdivision? (and yes I'm very aware that technically they would be breaking the law, considering Salt Lake City ordinances dictate that NO firearms are to be discharged within one mile of city limits)
> But I can't help but feel like the Salt Lake unit is already under fire every year (which is why we all have to take the educational online course each year), and I'll be surprised if it even remains open to archers for another 10 years. This is a GREAT unit, and even as an archer I personally wouldn't have issue with sharing it with the blackpowder guys, but for political issues, it won't EVER happen.


Yeah I don't see them allowing this to happen. It would be a good opportunity for ML hunters and they would help bring the buck to doe ratio down, but it would probably cause more problems than benefits.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

This whole issue is interesting. I can clearly see why there won't be a firearms hunt on the front, but it just makes no sense why they would ever close it down to archery hunting. These moron homeowners that build up in and near the mountains sit and complain about hunters, yet they don't stop to realize that if the hunters didn't thin out the herd on a yearly basis that their yards would be torn to shreds by the throngs of deer that would take over the place, not to mention how many of them would hit deer with their cars. Then they'd have a stinky, road kill mess to constantly deal with, and the idea of those deer going to waste, rotting on the road, rather than feeding people. The problem is that people want to live close to nature, but they don't have the slightest idea what its like dealing with these issues. 

Out in the midwest they have urban deer harvest programs for bowhunters to harvest deer that live in the suburbs and other heavily populated areas. If they didn't thin out those deer, they'd be killing them with their cars left and right. As long as people want to live in Olympus Cove and other areas that have been built in deer and elk habitat, they will need to deal with hunters, and start to embrace the service they provide! 

Enough preaching to the choir.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

I hear you, and while I'm in complete agreement with you, you need to keep in mind that the vast majority of the poeple living in those communities, up on the benches, are NOT hunters. Most of them live in those areas because after having grown up completely removed from nature, they somehow feel the need to go "commune" with the animals and live in nature. That and they like the view, and the perception that living higher on the hill somehow gives one the illusion of being better than the neighbors below.

Anyway, the point is, most of these people got their knowledge of nature and wildlife biology spoon fed to them by Walt Disney. There are people who would literally "lay their life on the line" to save the woodland creatures from big bad hunters, and yet somehow feel ok when they do their taxes to skip checking the little box to contribute a dollar of their tax money to help nongame wildlife. And these people get really upset, and call the local police, the 6 oclock news and their local congressman when a teenage boy who's dad should have taught him better, takes a pot shot at a wintering elk within sight of their deck. That my friend is why the extended archery zone will someday inevitably be in jeopardy. That is unless we get off our butts, patrol our own ranks, teach responsibility to the next generation of hunters, and stay in favor of the non hunting public.


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## slc muley (Aug 7, 2008)

the difference between the wasatch and henry's is the wasatch is pretty much roadless, there are more deer on the wasatch, the winters on the wasatch are much harsher, and i think the genetics on the henry's produce more non typicals and better genetics all around. archery hunters are truely blessed to have this area all to themselves. it definitely takes a different breed to hit the high country of the wasatch. that is some rough country and if you want to find the good ones you need to get off the foothills. too many hikers let their dogs run loose. i agree with opening it up to some muzzy and even shotguns. if the home owners dont like it they shouldnt have moved so close to th forest/mountains.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Yeah I don't see them allowing this to happen. It would be a good opportunity for ML hunters and they would help bring the buck to doe ratio down, but it would probably cause more problems than benefits.


Here you go again slinging the "ratio" word around like it's the only thing that matters to a deer herd. My info that tells me the herd is in good shape is a couple years old. But think about the herd right now. How did the winter affect the herd? Is 15-20/100 bucks to does just some biologists idea of a healthy deer herd or is the 35-40/100 ratio a better scenario. Personally, I think most herd studies are completed on the S.W.A.G method anyway, (scientific wildass guess) and don't account for the herd in an accurate way. AND, I think a lot of them are manufactured to candy coat the results to fit what some important individuals ideas should be.

The bottom line is this. The herd is healthy and what we're doing right now works. No matter what the "ratio study" says.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Here you go again slinging the "ratio" word around like it's the only thing that matters to a deer herd. My info that tells me the herd is in good shape is a couple years old. But think about the herd right now. How did the winter affect the herd? Is 15-20/100 bucks to does just some biologists idea of a healthy deer herd or is the 35-40/100 ratio a better scenario. Personally, I think most herd studies are completed on the S.W.A.G method anyway, (scientific wildass guess) and don't account for the herd in an accurate way. AND, I think a lot of them are manufactured to candy coat the results to fit what some important individuals ideas should be.
> 
> The bottom line is this. The herd is healthy and what we're doing right now works. No matter what the "ratio study" says.


Well according to all the studies then it CAN reduce fawn recruitment. I'm just going by what Finnegan and many others have said about reducing the buck to doe ratios on LE units. I believe they should allow some Archers to hunt until December 31st. Yes TEX from a hunting stand point a 35/100 is awesome compared to a 15/100 buck to doe ratio. BUT it only takes 5 bucks to breed 100 does so anything above that ratio is for better quality hunting.

But then again I doubt the DWR wants more fawns being recruited to the Wasatch/SL unit because it would cause more problems. The deer population is already over the population objective. If they issued like 100 ML tags then I don't see it as a huge problem since the ML hunters would be hunting in Sept higher up on the Mountain.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Here's an idea.

Lets give the folks who want to hunt the Wasatch unit exclusively two deer tags. One antlerless and one buck. But here's the catch. You gotta shoot a doe FIRST before you can harvest a buck. The buck to doe ratio is at 35-40/100 like we like to see for good bucks with some age to them, and the fawn recruitment goes down keeping the herd in check. :?:


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

TEX, thats a pretty good idea. Just giving out a bunch of doe tags that are archery only would be a good thing. I'll bet quite a few hunters would shoot a doe if it didn't mean filling their only tag.

WasatchOutdoors, thanks for all the conjecture. I like to make statements based on "actual experience", or "observation" though. Homeowners have very little to do with the anti-hunting atmosphere in the canyons. They would have next to nothing to say about any firearms hunt on the front because you have to be a mile from the homes in order to shoot. The problem on the front comes from ignorant people that use the trails. Mostly hippies that migrate into our canyons from Sugarhouse and surrounding areas, and they are appalled to see anyone carrying a weapon in their little utopia. If the complaints were coming from homeowners, would we not see the same firearms restrictions in Davis County? Or do your stereotypes only extend to North Salt Lake?

The ratios and objectives don't mean much to me, other than the fact that population objectives are usually tied to winter range. The wasatch front has very little winter range. So 40% over objective seems high to me, and thats validated by how many deer I see LIVING in the neighborhoods. Not just venturing down at night to forage, but living there. Some of them year-round. There are too many deer in this unit, and that bothers me. There is an enormous surplus of bucks that never get hunted, and that bothers me. _From a hunter's standpoint, or from a biologists standpoint, there is no reason at all not to kill more of these deer. _ If you disagree then it is purely for selfish reasons.

But all of that aside, the problem with the hippies still stands in the way. Its the timing that makes it difficult. A lot of people are using the canyons for recreation while the weather is decent, so a hunting season anytime in September or October would be a conflict. Early November would be perfect if the rut didn't occur at that time. That actually would be a little unfair to the archers. Mid to late November might work.

How would the archers feel about a late ML hunt, after the extended archery is over? I believe that's when the cow hunt is taking place.


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## slc muley (Aug 7, 2008)

last dec. i spoke with a gentleman from the DWR on several occasions about deer hunting utah. the first things out of his mouth were about the astounding buck/doe #'s on the wasatch 40%+,the second was to go see the huge mule deer on antelope island. this guy was a huge mule deer enthusiast. he warned me about tree huggers in the DWR itself and the bow hunter elitest/purist among the rest of us hunters. i'm sorry but to me a hunter is a hunter no matter what weapon he/she chooses.anybody care to argue? the wasatch is a great opporutinity that can afford to share the wealth right now. whats the problem? yeah its time to let others in. the archers have had their hayday. back in the late 80's my dad had a permit in the big cottonwood canyon. there were only 4 permis and still i believe the harvest was only 50%. we didn't fill the permit. the area was just below donut falls. great area but honestly my dad just had terrible luck/method when it came to hunting. i would like to see more opporutinity soon. i know it's a little late this year but if nothing is on this new year i plan on talking to the higher ups in the division soon


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## blackbear (Oct 18, 2007)

slc muley said:


> last dec. i spoke with a gentleman from the DWR on several occasions about deer hunting utah. the first things out of his mouth were about the astounding buck/doe #'s on the wasatch 40%+,the second was to go see the huge mule deer on antelope island. this guy was a huge mule deer enthusiast. he warned me about tree huggers in the DWR itself and the bow hunter elitest/purist among the rest of us hunters. i'm sorry but to me a hunter is a hunter no matter what weapon he/she chooses.anybody care to argue? the wasatch is a great opporutinity that can afford to share the wealth right now. whats the problem? yeah its time to let others in. the archers have had their hayday. back in the late 80's my dad had a permit in the big cottonwood canyon. there were only 4 permis and still i believe the harvest was only 50%. we didn't fill the permit. the area was just below donut falls. great area but honestly my dad just had terrible luck/method when it came to hunting. i would like to see more opporutinity soon. i know it's a little late this year but if nothing is on this new year i plan on talking to the higher ups in the division soon


good luck with that.

& yes. Archers are better hunters(and in general) than rifflers. 
sorry. But, there is nothin to argue.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

blackbear said:


> good luck with that.
> 
> & yes. Archers are better hunters(and in general) than rifflers.
> sorry. But, there is nothin to argue.


 o-|| o-|| oh and I agree... :mrgreen:


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> blackbear said:
> 
> 
> > good luck with that.
> ...


Oh boy!

There's a can of worms! Really though, the rifle hunt tends to bring out more guys that are after the "easy" kill. And quite frankly, I think you'd have to be Ray Charles not to kill a deer in this state with a rifle. (there goes my archery elitist attitude rearing it's ugly head) Plus you've got the hippie factor to deal with. A problem that has increased ten fold from when I started hunting the front 25 years ago.

Dirtbag rifle hunter+Hippies+Ski resorts+Mountain bikers+SL County no firearms ordinance= Not a chance!


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

> WasatchOutdoors, thanks for all the conjecture. I like to make statements based on "actual experience", or "observation" though. Homeowners have very little to do with the anti-hunting atmosphere in the canyons. They would have next to nothing to say about any firearms hunt on the front because you have to be a mile from the homes in order to shoot.


Thanks for that El Matador, but my "conjecture" is based squarely upon fact.
FACT: 8 years ago the hunt along the wasatch front made the nightly news because some ass hat put an arrow into the back end of an elk that then ran around the Millcreek subdivision before being dispatched by the DWR

Fact: every year residents in the communities that are on the east benches along the entire wasatch front have hunters encroaching well within the 600 feet required for archery hunting of homes etc without written permission of the residents of these homes (I know, I LIVE in one of these communities and spend countless hours defending hunting to my neighbors) and if you look through the old posts on here, you'll see countless posts showing the fine folks here complaining about these same types of activities.

Fact: While the requirement is to be at least 1 mile from any home, shed or building city limits etc, there ARE plenty of people that will not observe this limitation. If you drive up Big Cottonwood Canyon to just above Brighton where there is a big blue sign clearly posting that it is illegal to discharge centerfire rifles in the canyon, you'll clearly see that it has no less than 18 large bore rifle holes through it. It only takes a couple people to spoil the whole thing.

Fact: The current MANDATORY training course to be able to hunt the Wasatch Front Extended area is a direct reaction to political pressure raised by complaints against the behavior of these people.

Conjecture, I don't think so....


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

This is one and only unit that it is good to have a high buck to doe ratios on it. 
Here are the reasons why

1. A high buck to doe ratio on a unit that has over the counter tags is a great thing. There are no bottle necked plugged up draws for big deer.
Could you imagine being able to hunt the henneries with an over the counter tag?

2. The deer herds don’t grow as fast. This unit is at objective or below objective right now. Especially after the winter we just had. We don’t need more fawn recruitment. 

3. The Wasatch front has high predator numbers including bears, cougars, and coyotes. We see them on our trail cameras all the time. This helps keep the deer numbers in check and means their is a healthy deer population.

4. The henneries has retarded deer on it. The henneries archery success rate is 82% the Wasatch front is closer to 15%. I however hope I can draw an archery tag in the next few years so I can hunt a retarded deer. 9 points and counting

The Wasatch front is a better unit than any other unit in Utah right now because you can hunt it every year. You however are not guaranteed a monster buck. You will have to hunt hard for them but they are there. I hunted a typical a few years ago for 5 years that would have shattered the state record if it ever got killed with a bow, as far as I know it is still alive. I have hunted 2 non typical’s that went over 220”. There are several deer taken every year that go over 200” and it keeps getting better. I have also taken 6 bucks in 6 years off there.

If I have my way you will never be able to screw up the front with muzzle loaders or rifles. I will fight tooth and nail to keep it that way. :evil: So if you hunters that think it is unfair you can’t hunt it with your rifles all I got to say is go “blank” yourselves :twisted: or pick up a bow and learn how to really hunt. :mrgreen: 

You can teach an average bow hunter how to be a very successful rifle hunter, but you can’t teach an average rifle hunter to be a successful bow hunter.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I love how bow hunters constantly slam rifle hunters and vice versa. Its childish, but very funny at the same time. 

SWbuckmaster I have seen some pretty retarded deer on the Wasatch. My brother was working on a powerline in SLC and a nice 4 point buck came up and was rubbing his horns on the powerpole. Retarded deer get hit on the roads all the time. The Henry Mtn is easier to hunt because less pressure. Can you imagine how much more tame the deer would be on the wasatch if only 15 archers could hunt it. It would be easy as hell.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

Coyote's right. The reason we have to hunt so hard in the area is because there is so much pressure in the unit. But at the same time it's not a bad thing, there is a good balance going there.

he's also right that archers and rifle hunters do bash on one another quite a bit, maybe a little more than necessary. 

But SW Buckmaster has a point, it's a lot easier for an archery hunter to switch to rifle and be successful than the other way around. Maybe that's because an archery hunt really starts at the point that a rifle hunt usually ends.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> > blackbear said:
> ...


I was just stirring the pot, what riles me up is the mere fact of so much more pressure so you have [email protected]$$es who drive their truck right through an old trail on private property right down through the middle of the bowl where my whole group is sitting and obviously waiting to see deer, I wonder why we didn't just think of driving right through it ourselves?? I wonder why some of these guys lock up their property and the guys complain how it is a rich man's sport. There are losers everywhere and in each hunt, but the rifle hunt gives a better opportunity I guess.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Coyoteslayer 
You’re a genius you were able to sniff out my point through all my sarcasm.

The reason the Wasatch front is a better unit than the henneries is because you can hunt it every year, you don’t have to wait 50 years or more to draw it. 


As for rifle hunters bashing archers, and archers bashing rifle hunters. 
I guess I am a child because archery equipment has made me into a better hunter. I have seen first had how far I have become as a hunter. I practice my but off all season long to pull off a 20 yard shot. I have learned how wind currents and thermals affect my smell. I have learned how a deer can see movement and hear you fart at close distances. Everything I have learned about bow hunting has made me a better hunter. If I were to pick up a rifle and go hunt this same unit I would finally get the buck I am after on the first day instead of settling on just a good buck.

I would challenge anyone that hasn’t hunted with a bow to pick one up. I believe it is the only way for opportunity and quality for all. Just think if the whole state was a setup like the front what kind of deer could we have.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

“Can you imagine how much more tame the deer would be on the Wasatch if only 15 archers could hunt it. It would be easy as hell.”

This brings up another point.
Why do we have units that are so easy that Ray Charles with a bow can go hunt? 82% success rate with a bow, you have got to be kidding me. We could give out 10 times the archery tags on the henneries and not hurt the quality. Sure it would bring down the success rates to around 15% but hey you can at least call that a hunt.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Coyoteslayer 
You're a genius you were able to sniff out my point through all my sarcasm.



> The reason the Wasatch front is a better unit than the henneries is because you can hunt it every year, you don't have to wait 50 years or more to draw it.
> 
> As for rifle hunters bashing archers, and archers bashing rifle hunters.
> I guess I am a child because archery equipment has made me into a better hunter. I have seen first had how far I have become as a hunter. I practice my but off all season long to pull off a 20 yard shot. I have learned how wind currents and thermals affect my smell. I have learned how a deer can see movement and hear you fart at close distances. Everything I have learned about bow hunting has made me a better hunter. If I were to pick up a rifle and go hunt this same unit I would finally get the buck I am after on the first day instead of settling on just a good buck.
> ...


Yes, bowhunting takes a lot more skill and dedication. I can sight in my rifle and hit clay pigeons 5 out of 5 times at 300 yds with no problem, but bow hunting takes hours of practice and EVEN if you can shoot a bow great then you still wont be a great bow hunter until you are able to sneak quietly. Learn patiences and learn to work with the wind.

Swbuckmaster never eat beans the day because when you have only a few more yds to go on that 200 class muley and you left out a fart then your BUSTED. :lol:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> This brings up another point.
> Why do we have units that are so easy that Ray Charles with a bow can go hunt? 82% success rate with a bow, you have got to be kidding me. We could give out 10 times the archery tags on the henneries and not hurt the quality. Sure it would bring down the success rates to around 15% but hey you can at least call that a hunt.


Which brings up my next point. The 82% success rate is only with like 20 archery tags. The success rate is high because of fewer tags. If 14 out of 20 people kill bucks then the success rate looks great. Most of these archery hunters are serious and very skilled bow hunters otherwise they wouldn't be waiting 15 years to hunt the Henries with a bow.

If you took 20 serious bow hunters success rate off the wasatch then it would be close to 70 to 80%. After all dont you get a nice buck every year with your bow?


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