# Need help getting a law changed



## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

I need help from all of you who can manage it.

Background; 
I lead a group of 90, 6th, 7th, and 8th graders on a field trip last week to perform a community service project picking up garbage at one of our state parks. In the process of planning the outing I discovered that the law that allows Boy and Girl scout troops and most other 501c organizations to fish with-out a license while on the outing does not apply to public funded schools.

I am teaching a class at the Open Classroom on government and how to change laws and we have selected this law as the one we want to try to change. 
The change will be simple and involves including "public funded schools" in the list of eligable groups to fish without a license while on outings. 
http://le.utah.gov/...htm/23_19_001405.htm

I am looking for students from all over the state to get on board with this effort.

If anyone from anywhere has students either in school or who would be interested in helping get this change made please contact me at 
[email protected] with law change in the title.

Any help from fishing stores, politicians, or teachers would be a big help too.

Anyone with any questions feel free to contact me.

Thanks for any and all help, this is for the kids, not me. I am just a volunteer trying to teach kids how laws are changed and to get more kids eligable to fish for free on school outings.


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## Ton_Def (Dec 23, 2008)

The link to the law is not working. 

This is a really neat idea! Not only do the kids learn the process, they will be able to fish on field trips! Win win! Good luck and keep us updated!


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## highcountryfever (Aug 24, 2009)

I think this is the link:

http://le.utah.gov/~2007/bills/sbillint/sb0059s01.htm


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## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm not sure why the link doesn't work.
Here is the Law.
Wildlife Resources Code of Utah 
Chapter 19 Licenses, Permits, and Tags 
Section 14.5 Persons participating in youth organization activity authorized to fish without license. 
23-19-14.5. Persons participating in youth organization activity authorized to fish without license.
(1) As used in this section, "youth organization" means:
(a) the Boy Scouts of America;
(b) the Girls Scouts of the USA; or
(c) an organization that:
(i) is exempt from taxation under Section 501(c)(3), Internal Revenue Code; and
(ii) promotes character building through outdoor activities.
(2) The Division of Wildlife Resources shall permit a resident to fish without a license during a youth organization activity if:
(a) the resident is:
(i) a member of a youth organization; and
(ii) younger than 14 years old;
(b) the fishing is in compliance with all fishing statutes and rules; and
(c) the adult leader obtains from the youth organization:
(i) a valid tour permit; or
(ii) official documentation that specifies:
(A) the date and place of the fishing;
(B) the name of the adult leader that will supervise the fishing; and
(C) that the activity is officially sanctioned by the youth organization.
(3) (a) The adult leader shall instruct the members on fishing statutes and rules.
(b) The division shall provide educational materials on its website to assist the adult leader in complying with Subsection (3)(a).
(4) By following the procedures and requirements of Title 63G, Chapter 3, Utah Administrative Rulemaking Act, the Wildlife Board shall adopt rules specifying the form of the official documentation required by Subsection (2)(c)(ii). 

Amended by Chapter 340, 2011 General Session


Thanks for that link High COuntry, that is how the law was introduced, what I posted above is how it was passed.


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## GeorgeS (Dec 22, 2010)

If I read the code correctly, the law does not need changing. If you are doing this through a public school (all of which are tax exempt), it should fall under (c) i and ii. I would suggest calling the DWR and asking for a clarification on your specific program.


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## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

I was told by the school that they were not a 501 c 3.

Just got off the phone with the division and they confirmed that public schools are *not *covered under the exemption.
You *cannot* fill out the form and allow 12 and 13 yr olds to fish without a license while on a school picnic.

Thanks for spurring me to ask the division.

I did leave a message for Kenny Johnson to contact me about how the division would feel about getting the law changed to allow public school kids to be covered by this exemption law.

Thanks for your interest.

Do you live outside the Salt Lake area? I sure could use some help getting students from outside the SLC area to participate in this effort.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

what a horrible thing to teach scouts or school kids!! Why on earth would we make exceptions for groups that are supposed to be conservation minded to not have to have a license???

Horrible idea. If kids can't afford a license, I'd be willing to sponsor a couple and buy their license for them. Scouts, above all other groups, should ALWAYS have licenses. On top of that, leaders should try to teach scouts why licenses are necessary -- instead of trying to find ways to skirt having them.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

PBH, you are missing the point. They are talking about school kids here, probably most which have never been fishing. What better way to get them hooked and then they can "purchase" a fishing license later on. It is about recruitment and I think it is a great idea.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm wondering how this changed this last year. BSA changed their rules about filing tour permits. Under circumstances for most scout outings, you really don't have to file a tour permit any more. Would that negate the impacts of this law? If I take my scouts on a typical camp out and don't file a tour permit, then I guess this wouldn't apply to my group? 

PBH - I'm with you on this. When this was introduced, I campaigned very hard against this - I called my Rep, wrote letters, helped others write letters, etc.... And I'm a scout leader myself! I didn't like the message that belonging to some special group, no matter how good that group is, gets you exemption from laws. So yea, I get where you are coming from. I really don't think this law would pass muster if challenged in court. I'll stop there before getting into a political discussion. 

Back to the initial question - your school group would probably meet the requirements under the existing law.


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## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

PBH said:


> what a horrible thing to teach scouts or school kids!! Why on earth would we make exceptions for groups that are supposed to be conservation minded to not have to have a license???
> 
> Horrible idea. If kids can't afford a license, I'd be willing to sponsor a couple and buy their license for them. Scouts, above all other groups, should ALWAYS have licenses. On top of that, leaders should try to teach scouts why licenses are necessary -- instead of trying to find ways to skirt having them.


So I can count on you to lead the crusade in the Southern Utah area?


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## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

This exemption only lasts as long as the trip, not the whole time they are 12 and 13.

Like jahan said, it's about recruitment. You get kids out to give it a try and if they like it they'll ask to go again and then buy the $5 license. Probably get their dad or mom to get one to at the full price.

How anyone could not be for not charging kids for a license so that they can give fishing a try is beyond me, but your all entitled to your opinions. Remember, these kids we are talking about doing this put in 90 man hours picking up garbage at one of our state parks, that should get them a free couple of hours fishing.

Not only am I teaching them to look for exemptions, I'm teaching them how to go about the process of getting laws they don't like changed. We're going to do the whole write legislature, fishing shops, many other middle schools in the state, go to meetings of the conservation, education and rules committees, maybe even meet with the govornor. We will do press releases, probably stand on the steps and get the Deseret News to take our picture.

You don't need a tour permit from the council, Mr Scoutleader(see 2 C (ii) )and you are wrong about the school already being covered, read my post, I spoke with a division of wildlife CO, fish cops some of you call them.

I'll stop there before I go all agro.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

The scout tour permit is part of the equation. Or some other kind of documentation. But it is not clear who that must be filed with. When the law was passed, a BSA tour permit was required for every overnight camp out for scouts and the thought was that showed that it really was a Scout authorized trip - not just a guy claiming it to be a scout trip to avoid buying licenses. Since BSA changed the terms for tour permits, I was wondering how this would change things for a scout group. But it sounds like the scout leader must file some kind of documentation with DWR. But who at DWR? Any CO? The receptionist? Director? It isn't clear. 

Anyway, good luck with your endeavor. I might not agree in this specific instance, but I respect it. I applaud your efforts to lead kids on a chance to clean up a park. That is a great activity. The kids certainly deserve some kind of atta-boy for their efforts. Heck, if that gets a guy a free day of fishing, then Goob should never have to buy another fishing license through this or his next 8 lives. 

I like your spirit and your drive. Good luck in your endeavor. 

FWIW - The state does host a free fishing and free state parks day - usually in June. State Parks charge no fees on those days, and fishing licenses are not required for anyone. All other rules apply. 

One last thing to remember - COs (fish cops) do not know all things. In fact, much as I respect many of them, each one has their own interpretation of the fish and game laws and aside from counting the number of fish, ducks and life jackets, you'll get a different interpretation of the law from just about every one out there. I would NEVER trust the legal opinion of a CO, Park Ranger, City Cop, County Sherriff, or Highway Patrolman on any thing. They are great guys that work hard and I respect what they do. But six weeks of POST does not substitute for 3 years of Law School. And just like a different point of view from every CO you talk to, you'll also get a different point of view from every attorney you talk to as well.

One last thing. When this was debated, there was a GREAT deal of discussion about how the law would be applied, and to whom. It was initially intended for Boy Scouts alone, and Girl Scouts were added to avoid issues of sexism. It only passed its current form because not enough legislators had the guts to vote against the Boy Scouts. But the State's attorneys had serious misgivings about the legality of such an exemption, and real issues with the law as it was written. It is a very poorly written law and needs to be amended. If your efforts can improve upon it, then good for you. In your teaching efforts, it would be worth pulling the testimony given in committee and learn more about the challenges that went in to passing this law. It really is quite interesting.


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## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

Garyfish,
The way it works now is that you fill out this form from the DWR website and carry it with you.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/fishing/pdf/yo ... mption.pdf
Pretty simple, really. I guess they now feel that it is doubtful that people would claim they were scouts if they were not. I do not pretend to know what the reasoning behind only having to fill out the form and carry it with you is. I just comply.

I will look up those discussions that took place during the last debates. Thanks for pointing them out to me. I'll read at least exerpts from them in class too, so the students have a good background about how the law was put in place and the concerns at that time. It will be good background information.

I also agree with your thoughts on a CO's opinion. I trust more the opinion of the schools that they are not eligible due to them not being a 501 c 3 organization. 
This I am sure will be straightened out by the legislatures lawyers and law review people once we get this process started. No matter what it will be a good learning experieance for the students in how the legislative branch of their government works and that is really the purpose of the course I am teaching. Getting this particular law changed just presented it's self due to our community service project.
Hopefully when we are done with the course the students will know, what district they live in and how to find the represenative for any district in the state, how to contact a represenative, who their represenative is, how to present a law to a represenative, how to work with a represenative, how to determinw what committees exist and who is on them, how to attend a committee meeting and present their case to one and how to talk with a represenative in the halls of our capital.
That is a lot and I dare say much more than many adults now know about the process. It may even cause some of them to want to become lawyers or represenatives them selves.
(for purposes of this post I used the word represenatives to mean both the house and senate)


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