# Wolves Taking Big Game in Springville!



## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

This will probably get moved out of Big Game, but it will get more views here.
This link is from DWR's website. Wolves or wolf/dog hybrids. If they are wolf/dog hybrids they can be shot. If not, watch out. :O•-: Who knows what will happen? Let the games begin.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/news/42-ut ... tings.html


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Hmmm, I hope they allow the state to manage them. -8/-


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## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

I hope they're not wolves, but a pack of four seems unlikely to be hybrids to me.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Its not as if Utah had control over hunting wolves they would issue tags to limit populations in Utah. I figure if they had total control on the matter they will harbor a healthy population of wolf. I can foresee trophy LE wolf hunts in our future in Utah. What makes me think that?

I posted this on another thread and wasn't surprised when it went undetected as a red flag on the future of wolf in Utah.

Minutes from the WB meeting 8-11

Jim Karpowitz, DWR Director presented this agenda item. "We are going to run a bill to 
change the classification of wolves to be treated the same as bears and cougars, rather 
than under furbearer". 

If we are looking to treat wolves the same as bear and cougar. Then we are screwed. -)O(-


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I used to have a Wolf Dog many years back. They are very tricky animals. It was not an aggressive animal as some may think but they do have a very strong will. They are extremely smart animals and extremely loyal to the master but not trusting of anybody else and can be extremely protective of their space.

These animals need a lot of room to roam and need constant handling and attention. They also really should be part of a pack. While I enjoyed it immensely, it did change my opinion on the whether they should even exist. They have enough wild blood in them that I don't feel that they should live a life of domestication. With that in mind I don't think that they should exist at all. There are plenty of domesticated breeds available to suit any need as it is. Wild animals should be kept wild in my opinion or not exist at all. I loved that Wolf Dog but it was not a Wolf and **** sure not a dog was basically lost in this world.


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## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

Yes Iron Bear, le wolf hunts that take twenty years to draw, you're probably right.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I've been watching this situation pretty closely ...

The elk herds from Two Tom hill , south , through the Waters to Sheep Creek have
changed so dramatically over the past 2 years there's never been any question in my
mind ,, Wolves are there, and the elk have moved....

I spoke with the Wild life services 2 weeks ago about this situation.....
Now we know the direction they will pursue,,,,And the DWR FINALY posts a news release..

I know for a fact there were 7 together at one time this past fall, Would surprise me one
bit to hear they are indeed from Yellowstone,,,Have a den. And then will become the first
"established" pack of wolves in Utah........


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

bigred said:


> Yes Iron Bear, le wolf hunts that take twenty years to draw, you're probably right.


Wrong.. More than likely harvest objective will be used when wolf hunting
starts in Utah...JMHO.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

horsesma said:


> This will probably get moved out of Big Game....


You are right sir. I am moving this to the waterfowl section -/|\-


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

I thought the might DON was stopping wolves in Utah. How is it possible that we are loosing deer and gaining wolves when SFW is single handedly controlling the situation on both fronts? Guess SFW will need another 200 tags to stop wolves, look how sucessful they have been with the 200 they have in increasing deer!!!

Pass the coolaid!!


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## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

goofy elk said:


> bigred said:
> 
> 
> > Yes Iron Bear, le wolf hunts that take twenty years to draw, you're probably right.
> ...


Ok, ok, I was being a bit cynical.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

hossblur said:


> I thought the might DON was stopping wolves in Utah. How is it possible that we are loosing deer and gaining wolves when SFW is single handedly controlling the situation on both fronts? Guess SFW will need another 200 tags to stop wolves, look how sucessful they have been with the 200 they have in increasing deer!!!
> 
> Pass the coolaid!!


Hoss, your statement is incorrect. Koolaid is spelled with a K.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

bigred said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > bigred said:
> ...


I wasn't. At one time LE trophy cougar hunting was inconceivable in Utah.

I predict Utah's elk habitat is about to take a turn for the worse.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

If they are wolves I understand they can't kill them due to the ESA and all but why can't they stick some bells on those radio collars? You know for public safety reasons. A large cow bell ought to do the trick. :mrgreen:


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Are we taking bets on whether they turn out to be wolves or wolf/dog hybrids?? I'm putting my money on hybrids.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

I'll take wolves.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I vote wolves. I know people that witnessed wolves in Box a elder county years ago, when the DWR was actively trying to tell us there were no wolves in Utah. There was a pack of 5 around Dutch John a couple years back. I'm saying wolves for sure.


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## rukus (Apr 11, 2008)

If they do in fact turn out to be wolves, what do you think the next step would be in order to get responsibility away from the Feds and into the hands of the state? I can only imagine the attention this news will bring from the wolf special interest groups.


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

Here is a KSL article on the same story. Assuming the picture they have is one of the animals in question (I know, big assumption for KSL) I'd say it looks like a wolf to me.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=194...lf-sighting-near-springville&s_cid=featured-3


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

> "Except for a small area in northern Utah," Bunnell says, "any wolf that enters the state is fully protected by the federal Endangered Species Act."
> 
> Outside of that small area in northern Utah, Bunnell says the DWR doesn't have any management authority over wolves in Utah. All management authority rests with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.


Where exactly is this place in Northern UT? I have a truck in which we could fit four woofies or large yotes and will provide the bullets.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

My vote is that they are wolves, not hybrids. But screw the wolves... What I want to know is how to get a job doing coyote control from a helicopter, that would be the worlds coolest job!!


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## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

I figure they have probably been here a long time, my grandma swears she saw one in the Mink Creek Idaho area about ten years ago, and that's not too far north of the UT border.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> > "Except for a small area in northern Utah," Bunnell says, "any wolf that enters the state is fully protected by the federal Endangered Species Act."
> >
> > Outside of that small area in northern Utah, Bunnell says the DWR doesn't have any management authority over wolves in Utah. All management authority rests with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
> 
> ...


Karpowitz says. "The only part of Utah that we have authority over wolves is a small 
piece of land in northeastern Utah, east of I-84".


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

If I had a picture of the Wolf Dog that I use to have and posted it, I guarantee not a single person could distinguish it from a wolf without DNA testing.

I'm not saying these aren't wolves that are being seen but a picture really doesn't prove a thing to me. They act no different towards strangers than any wolf would and will form packs just the same. Hybrids can be sold to the public as second generation dogs and the wolf genes are very dominant.


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## blueshooter (Oct 10, 2009)

*wolves in springville area*

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=960&sid=19487732

here they come


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Whatever they are,, I can tell you this with absolute certainty....

They are killing lion hunters hound dogs....

And, They are ripping through the elk herd...

I guess we can hope they are hybrids, and can be destroyed. 
BUT I doubt that will be the case.......Makes me sick to see one of my favorite
areas for hunting/guiding elk,,,and hounding area for lions.....pretty much GONE!
Just ask the Diamond fork/ Springville cow elk hunters how many elk there are
now ,, compered to 3 years ago............Not even close to 'near' as many .. IMHO.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I wouldn't question that for a second. 

I came to Utah from Cody Wyoming years back. I have videos that show what wolves do and hybrids are no different when it comes to hunting. I have seen a pack of 22 wolves hunting together outside of Yellowstone. TWENTY TWO! They are the most efficient hunters known to man and they don't just kill to eat like so many people want to believe. 

We don't need or want them here in any way, shape or form.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I've shot too cows up Hobble Creek near Sheep creek during the past 4 years. This is my favorite spot to see elk. I've noticed the elk moving in patterns they never had till recently. The herds seem more and more thin as well. One year I saw about a thousand elk in one drainage. This last hunt I had I never saw groups of more than 20! I also saw massive paw prints up there which I posted about months back. They were definitely dog and bigger than any hound prints I've seen. At least they finally have admitted they are there...now how do we get rid of them?


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

buy a pet sacrificial lamb and take it hiking. Protect it as needed.


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

I'm with Goofy, hopefully they are hybrids so they can be quickly eradicated.


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## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> buy a pet sacrificial lamb and take it hiking. Protect it as needed.


that's great -_O-


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

If we REALLY want to get rid of Wolves and Coyotes, all we need to do is get Boone and Crocket to recognize them as trophy animals. Then the special interest groups will get involved, Conseravtion tags will be auctioned, guides will get paid, (basically put a monetary value on their heads) and the packs will decline. Unless that just happens to deer and elk


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## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

Ok, so north of the 80 and east of the 84, that's the cache, ogden, morgan areas right? They're delisted in that are, what exactly does that mean? that the DWR is going to manage them in that area?


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Elkoholic8 said:


> If we REALLY want to get rid of Wolves and Coyotes, all we need to do is get Boone and Crocket to recognize them as trophy animals. Then the special interest groups will get involved, Conseravtion tags will be auctioned, guides will get paid, (basically put a monetary value on their heads) and the packs will decline. Unless that just happens to deer and elk


I'm sorry but I don't see that being the case. I feel if they were a trophy animal they would make sure to let the packs get large and powerful. Our elk herds would dwindle and the large "trophy" wolves would be too well feed... :evil:


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

bigred said:


> Ok, so north of the 80 and east of the 84, that's the cache, ogden, morgan areas right? They're delisted in that are, what exactly does that mean? that the DWR is going to manage them in that area?


That is exactly what it means. It doesn't give them a green light to erradicate them though. It also means that a rancher can without fear of prosecution by federal authorities kill a wolf in defense of cattle or a person in defense of their life/property.

I don't think they will be hybrids. I do think there are more than a just those 4, a lot more. I also believe they have been there for much longer than we think.

Thinking of poaching stats and the percentage of poaching incidents vs. poaching convictions; I find it hard to believe that if poachers take a stab at a dozen wolves up there; _O\ That they have any chance of getting caught and convicted at all. :RULES:

I'm not advocating anything.... I am just citing statistics! o-|| o-||


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## shaun larsen (Aug 5, 2011)

^^ lets all go "coyote" hunting!!


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## bird buster (May 25, 2008)

Wolves have been here for years. A few years ago I cut some tracks up AF canyon. If anyone wants to see what a wolf track looks like and how big they are check out this link and look at page 3.

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=40391&start=20


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

MadHunter said:


> I don't think they will be hybrids. I do think there are more than a just those 4, a lot more. I also believe they have been there for much longer than we think.
> 
> Thinking of poaching stats and the percentage of poaching incidents vs. poaching convictions; I find it hard to believe that if poachers take a stab at a dozen wolves up there; _O\ That they have any chance of getting caught and convicted at all. :RULES:
> 
> I'm not advocating anything.... I am just citing statistics! o-|| o-||


I have to agree, I think they're full blooded wolf. I also think there are a lot more than 4 myself. I'm definitely not condoning poaching either, but I hope somebody does something! Something that I think a lot of people don't realize, or just plain scoff at the idea of, is the possibility of getting some wolf blood in our coyote populations. Mixes of the two are pretty common and sometimes called coywolves. They're bigger than yotes but smaller than wolves. They retain the wolf pack hunting mentality and can do a good deal of damage. Imagine if a large number of wolves got in to the state and interbred with some yotes before we could eradicate them. The offspring would be hard to target and would probably carry the yotes resistance to population control. It is widely believed that the red wolf is in fact a permanently established group of hybrids. DNA testing has confirmed that red wolfs are more yote than wolf. Bigger coyotes with better hunting insticts = worse impact on big game herds.


> The Red Wolf is a wolf/coyote hybrid. Strong evidence for hybridization was found through genetic testing which showed that red wolves have only 5% of their alleles unique from either Gray wolves or coyotes. Genetic distance calculations have indicated that red wolves are intermediate between coyotes and grey wolves, and that they bear great similarity to wolf/coyote hybrids in southern Quebec and Minnesota. Analyses of mitochondrial DNA showed that existing Red Wolf populations are predominantly coyote in origin...


Here's the scary part...


> Coywolves have the wolf characteristics of pack hunting and aggression and the coyote characteristic of lack of fear of human-developed areas. They seem to be bolder and more intelligent than regular coyotes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coywolf


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

The biggest threat to the deer and elk herds in Utah are the private property owners and farmers and ranchers. They are locking you all out of their properties so you can't hunt. They locked up the rivers and steams by buying the Utah legislature and now they want to get a hold of the federal owned lands in Utah so they can lock you out of Forest Service and BLM lands (the only public lands we have left in Utah). Think about it hunters--where can you hunt and fish right now? Answer: Federal Lands. If we let this land grabbing legislature get a hold of the Forest Service property and the BLM properties, you will not be able to hunt and fish in this state. The real wolves are on Capital Hill in their "wool" suits--that's right you were warned in Sunday School about the wolves in sheeps clothing (wool suits). Don't let them take away the Federal Lands in Utah--they will lock you out!


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

HighNDry said:


> The biggest threat to the deer and elk herds in Utah are the private property owners and farmers and ranchers. They are locking you all out of their properties so you can't hunt. They locked up the rivers and steams by buying the Utah legislature and now they want to get a hold of the federal owned lands in Utah so they can lock you out of Forest Service and BLM lands (the only public lands we have left in Utah). Think about it hunters--where can you hunt and fish right now? Answer: Federal Lands. If we let this land grabbing legislature get a hold of the Forest Service property and the BLM properties, you will not be able to hunt and fish in this state. The real wolves are on Capital Hill in their "wool" suits--that's right you were warned in Sunday School about the wolves in sheeps clothing (wool suits). Don't let them take away the Federal Lands in Utah--they will lock you out!


Intersting perspective.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Nope, I don't beleive one bit of it.....Where is the proof!!!!!!
Big


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> HighNDry wrote:The biggest threat to the deer and elk herds in Utah are the private property owners and farmers and ranchers. They are locking you all out of their properties so you can't hunt. They locked up the rivers and steams by buying the Utah legislature and now they want to get a hold of the federal owned lands in Utah so they can lock you out of Forest Service and BLM lands (the only public lands we have left in Utah). Think about it hunters--where can you hunt and fish right now? Answer: Federal Lands. If we let this land grabbing legislature get a hold of the Forest Service property and the BLM properties, you will not be able to hunt and fish in this state. The real wolves are on Capital Hill in their "wool" suits--that's right you were warned in Sunday School about the wolves in sheeps clothing (wool suits). Don't let them take away the Federal Lands in Utah--they will lock you out!


Spot on correct!


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## kd7kmp (Sep 17, 2007)

HighNDry makes a good point. While I can understand where the state is coming from in regards to federal land control in Utah, I don't believe I support their position. Every time I hear a member of the state legislature speak about wanting to take control of federal land in Utah it's followed by some comment about developing it. The part about developing it kind of scares me. There seems to be a proportionally larger percentage of land developers represented in the state legislature than in the public at large. Personally, I don't want to see public land in Utah auctioned off to the highest bidder. However, I believe this is what will happen if the state legislature ever got its wish. All this means less access for the average sportsmen.

Kevin


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

HighNDry said:


> The biggest threat to the deer and elk herds in Utah are the private property owners and farmers and ranchers. They are locking you all out of their properties so you can't hunt. They locked up the rivers and steams by buying the Utah legislature and now they want to get a hold of the federal owned lands in Utah so they can lock you out of Forest Service and BLM lands (the only public lands we have left in Utah). Think about it hunters--where can you hunt and fish right now? Answer: Federal Lands. If we let this land grabbing legislature get a hold of the Forest Service property and the BLM properties, you will not be able to hunt and fish in this state. The real wolves are on Capital Hill in their "wool" suits--that's right you were warned in Sunday School about the wolves in sheeps clothing (wool suits). Don't let them take away the Federal Lands in Utah--they will lock you out!


You got that right.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

HighNDry said:


> The biggest threat to the deer and elk herds in Utah are the private property owners and farmers and ranchers. They are locking you all out of their properties so you can't hunt. They locked up the rivers and steams by buying the Utah legislature


Why? Why have private property owners locked out the public? Before you talk about the almighty dollar I can promise you that isn't the answer.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

bwhntr said:


> Why? Why have private property owners locked out the public? Before you talk about the almighty dollar I can promise you that isn't the answer.


Then please enlighten us! I can say with certaintly that the allmighty dollar is the bigest reason/answer. I'll just give you one example of why I think it is. Look at all the walk-in-access areas and read through the landowner conditions. How many do you find that will allow you to take a doe or a cow elk but will not allow you to take a buck or a bull? Answer: Bucks and bulls have a monetary value and they are not going to let that get away from them.

Another reason is that many landowners will tell you that THEY hunt their land with THEIR family. and it is a valid and perfectly good reason. However, you will find that this reason only applies to small tracks of land in which commercial hinting is not viable. Do you honestly believe that any one individual or family that owns a chunck of land half the size of DLL can use this as a valid reason. Absolutelt not. That much land allows and requires larger numbers of animals to be harvested for proper management. Why should they allow the public access when they can make hundreds of thousands of dollars?

I have seen from some of your other posts that you have atendency to discredit a lot of opinions but never offer a solid reason for it. Like this one I quoted you on. I would really like to know if I am wrong in my opinion according to you and what the reason is for closing down land if it is not money.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> Then please enlighten us! I can say with certaintly that the allmighty dollar is the bigest reason/answer. I'll just give you one example of why I think it is. Look at all the walk-in-access areas and read through the landowner conditions. How many do you find that will allow you to take a doe or a cow elk but will not allow you to take a buck or a bull? Answer: Bucks and bulls have a monetary value and they are not going to let that get away from them.
> 
> Another reason is that many landowners will tell you that THEY hunt their land with THEIR family. and it is a valid and perfectly good reason. However, you will find that this reason only applies to small tracks of land in which commercial hinting is not viable. Do you honestly believe that any one individual or family that owns a chunck of land half the size of DLL can use this as a valid reason. Absolutelt not. That much land allows and requires larger numbers of animals to be harvested for proper management. Why should they allow the public access when they can make hundreds of thousands of dollars?
> 
> I have seen from some of your other posts that you have atendency to discredit a lot of opinions but never offer a solid reason for it. Like this one I quoted you on. I would really like to know if I am wrong in my opinion according to you and what the reason is for closing down land if it is not money.


There are some that do it for money, I will give you that. There are some that don't want the public hunting because they hunt it themselves. This is a given. My experience is that a very large amount of private property owners have been used and abused. It is not worth it anymore to allow the public on their land because of the constant upkeep and maintanance required to fix what some leave behind. Most are not getting rich with hunting. They have use for their land and allowing the public does not balance out the headache and money lost with fixing the left over abuse.

It is much easier to turn it over to a CWMU operator or close off hunting all together. So, before you blame $$$ (which is a completly valid reason) think about what a landowner has to deal with. At least if they do allow hunting, the little money they make can compensate for lost time, headache, and materials to fix the damage. The property I hunt on I fixed cut fence 3 times last year and have more to fix this year. I have steel posts and cable I need to install this spring. This constant abuse goes on year after year, all year long. How do you convice a land owner who is dealing with this to allow the public back on their land?

I believe it was the public hunter that ruined the opportunities to hunt private lands.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

This is a great discussion about wolves in outside of Springville. :mrgreen:


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

sorry for the hijack/tangent! Back to the wolves............. SSS!


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## kd7kmp (Sep 17, 2007)

(off in the distance) ...hhhooowwwlll....

Kevin


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

It did get a bit sidetracked, but at least he tied it in with:

*"The real wolves are on Capital Hill in their "wool" suits--that's right you were warned in Sunday School about the wolves in sheeps clothing (wool suits). Don't let them take away the Federal Lands in Utah--they will lock you out!"*
R


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> sorry for the hijack/tangent! Back to the wolves............. SSS!


Sorry...back on topic. :mrgreen:

SSS


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## bigred (Mar 5, 2012)

So did they manage to catch any yet?


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

No. I believe they are planning to attempt to catch a couple of them tomorrow.


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