# What's the right choke?



## MKP (Mar 7, 2010)

Simple question? I'm fairly new at this, but what do you think the best choke for grouse is? (Blue & Ruffed)

Thanks, this is the first year I'm doing it seriously.


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## billybob (Oct 27, 2008)

If you are shooting in tight cover, improved is the way to go. Otherwise, I stick with modified.


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## cfarnwide (Sep 10, 2007)

Improved.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

1. Open
2. Improved


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

IC heads and shoulders better than Mod IMO.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I use Light Modifed for everything but skeet and turkey hunting.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

I leave the modified in my gun the entire season. No need to change it. If you are doing nothing but hunting pheasants or forest grouse over pointing doge an IC might be a better bet. I just K.I.S.S. and leave the mod in for everything.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

The right choke?

I have some shotguns that have those things screwed in the end of the barrel. Some day I'm gonna take them out and see what choke they are.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Skeet/IC


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## MKP (Mar 7, 2010)

Sounds like theres a lot of different opinions  , but I've got some ideas now. Right now the Remington's got a modified in it, which sounds like it will work. I'll see which one works best when I figure out the cover I'm finding the birds in.

Thanks for the help guys.


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## tigerpincer (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but I switched to using the improved last year when I bought my super black eagle. I have really liked shooting the improved. I've noticed a big reduction in the damage done to the birds I shoot and haven't experienced any real problems putting em down either. I have only changed the choke for the Turkey hunt and the Sage grouse. Everything else from duck, dove, chukar, pheasant and grouse I've used the IC and it's worked out great for me. Of course before that I always shot a full choke that couldnt be changed. That thing would peridically mangle my birds. That was never enjoyable.


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## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

patternmaster longrange for everything. lol.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

If it's for the CEO of the Humane society or Peta- it's a rear naked choke.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Packfish said:


> If it's for the CEO of the Humane society or Peta- it's a rear naked choke.


Thanks Packfish.

That's what I like about this forum. What a wealth of knowledge. :lol: ah...what is a rear naked choke? I learn something daily here. The first 20 years I spent hunting birds I thought a choke was a miss! I didn't know grouse hunting was so complicated.

Geeze, I just grab a shotgun and say "hi buddy, you look lonely. Wanna go hunting today?" And then I just take it out and point it at grouse, pull the trigger, and then go pick the bird off the ground. Sometimes I grab a .410 that has "full" stamped on the barrel. Now that's a combination I wouldn't recommend.

I even have some old, and favorite, single-shot shotguns that do not have the choke marked on them. I could measure them, but I just don't care.

Seriously, I like an improved on a .410 or a 28. With 20, 16, and 12, I try to use a modified on forest grouse, but if I accidently grab a full choke it's no big deal. I don't take any of my 10 gauges grouse hunting, they are too heavy to carry. 

Where's *coolgunnings* on this? gdog? Caleb?


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

shootemup said:


> patternmaster longrange for everything. lol.


yikes!


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## MKP (Mar 7, 2010)

To be honest, Wyogoob, that's what I usually do, just grab a gun and go. In fact, most of the time I use an old Ithaca single-shot 20 gauge with a fixed choke (and no markings as the size), but this year I have access to my Grandma's Remington 870 (that she won at a raffle, I'm told all the men in the room were quite envious  ). I just thought I'd see if there's a way to improve my odds.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Yep, I have an Ithaca single in a 16. Have no idea what choke it is.

I'm just a hillbilly dope, and look at chokes differently than folks around here. Where I come from you went out in the back 40 and had a chance to shoot geese, wood****, doves, quail, partridge, ducks, pheasants, rabbits and squirrels all in the same morning. So fussing with chokes was kinda silly. 

I'd concentrate on finding a good forest grouse hunting spot first. 

Good luck.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I shoot full choke on top, mod on bottom for upland


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## castnblast (Jan 15, 2009)

I think it depends a little on barrel length as well, No? My SBE II is shorter (I think a 26") and it seems like I end up using the next tighter choke than the rest of the guys I hunt with.


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## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

wyogoob said:


> shootemup said:
> 
> 
> > patternmaster longrange for everything. lol.
> ...


Why yikes, if you pick your shot size well and make good shots its awesome!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Tex is wise to things like this. Listen to his wisdom.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

shootemup said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> > shootemup said:
> ...


atta boy!

I have a Patternmaster


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Tex is wise to things like this. Listen to his wisdom.


Thanks G-fish. 

Now that I'm done working and sitting here on my butt relaxing let me elaborate on my suggestion. As I said before, I'd choose skeet/IC. I shoot an O/U so I have the luxury of two different chokes. But, the difference between skeet and IC when I've patterned my gun was hardly noticeable. The reasons I choose open chokes for just about everything are many.

1. most the grouse I've shot at in my days have been in-your-face close flushing birds that manage to get out and gone rather quickly and have an uncanny ability to put a tree between you and them every time. I want to acquire the target fast and punch the trigger. Do that with a Mod choke at 20 yards and IF you hit the bird you'll turn it into swiss cheese.

2. I hunt over pointing dogs and most my flushes are at close range. I've found that skeet/IC is just right on all game birds flushed within 20 or so yards.

3. I've been shooting sporting clays every week now for five years. Most guys will carry a bag with all their choke tubes in case they need to switch out a tube on a close rabbit target or a falling schaundell (sp) at 70 yards. I'm lazy. I keep my chokes in the truck in my case and just stick with the skeet/IC combo all the time. There has been may be 3 times all summer that I wish I'd had a tighter choke. I'm tellin ya, I'm smoking everything from 10- 50 yards with that choke combo in a 20 ga gun and 26 inch tubes! You just DON'T need tight chokes with todays loads and wads. If you think I'm BS'n ya, go out and pattern your gun with your hunting loads. You'll be surprised how far out an IC choke will reach!

If you're shooting a single barrel gun and want a good all around choke I'd personally stick with the IC or light mod at the tightest! The ONLY time I screw in a tight choke, and to me Mod is way tight, is when I'm hunting big open country on a windy day, and the birds are twitchy and flushing wild. A big, old, counterfeit, sneaky, back door escapin, rooster is what comes to mind... :twisted: The only time I use a full choke is when I'm hunting turkeys, and when you call one of those in to 15 yards choke size is a moot point...

Kinda long winded, hope this helps.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I told you Tex knew his schtuff. Every week for five years? Wow. You either have your priorities REALLY right, or REALLY wrong. I'm not sure which!


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## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

Tex makes a lot of good points. However, when one learns to properly shoot a shotgun "instinctively" (something tex is a fan of with his bow) the distance a bird is shouldnt really matter. If you make the kind of shots that stone birds, head shots then ruining a birds breast meat shouldnt be an issue. Do i end up with a lot of headless grouse, and pheasants? ya, but i have an interest in mounting one? No. I suppose if that changes i will try changing my choke for a hunt or two.

The patternmaster is really one of the most amazing chokes on the planet.

(From their website) How conventional chokes work.

Until the introduction of the Patternmaster choke tube in 1993, all chokes used constriction or funneling as a way of controlling patterns. This works relatively well except for two problems: 1. Very Long Shot Strings.... As the wad carries the shot down the barrel to the choke the shot is squeezed and the shot string (from first BB to last BB) becomes very long. *Tests have proven that shot strings from conventional choke tubes can be up to sixteen feet long.* This is the same principle as pouring sand through a funnel. All of the sand can not exit the funnel at the same time. With a shot string sixteen feet long the amount of pellets on a moving target is limited. 2. The Shot Wad... The shot cup or "wad" used in shotgun shells has always been a problem for pattern control. Shotgun shells use a wad to carry or push the shot down and out of the barrel. These wads are made from paper or plastic. *When exiting the barrel the wad, being much lighter than the shot it carries, pushes through the shot string before falling away. This interaction destroys shot patterns. Leaving you with a donut pattern at the target.*

How Patternmaster studded choke tubes work

The people at Patternmaster took a very close look at the issues associated with choking by constriction and came up with a solution. The Patternmaster choke tube. The way that the Patternmaster choke works is simple; the Patternmaster tube does not try to constrict the shot or pellets. Therefore, this reduces the long shot string or the funnel affect to about a 2 foot string. This gives you more concentrated shot in your pattern. The next issue was to keep the wad from effecting the shot pattern. Placing five square shallow studs inside the choke tube provided the desired effect. As the wad travels past the studs the base of the wad catches and hesitates for a microsecond giving the shot a chance to separate from the wad. The wad will exit the barrel! This separation allows all shot pellets to leave the cup at the same time. The result is a short shot string without a wad to blow through it. Patternmaster choke tubes keep their full pattern by encompassing the entire length of the wad while the shot is leaving. Therefore, the long range tube will encompass a 3" or 2 ¾" wad allowing for the full pattern. While an extended Patternmaster choke tube will encompass a 3 ½" wad while the shot is leaving. Shooting a 3 ½" shell through a long range tube will result in a modified pattern because the wad will be allowed to extend ½" beyond the end of the tube during the moment the studs are gripping the base of the wad. If you shoot a 3" or 2 ¾" shell through the extended tube you will still get a full pattern because the wad will be encompassed while the shot is exiting the tube. To get a more open pattern Patternmaster has designed a short range or over decoy tube. We have trimmed the front of the tube back closer to the studs to allow the wad to extend past the end of the tube and open up to spread the shot pattern to an improved modified pattern. We recommend using the short range tube inside 35 yards. We have been able to manipulate patterns without using constriction so all 12ga tubes will have approximately the same dimensions through the inside of the tube. Although, Patternmaster tubes will not preform as stated when using ammunition with velocity faster than 1550 fps. Ammunition running faster than 1550 fps may by-pass the studs all together for a reduction in performance patterns.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Thanks shootemup, I'll have to admit I've never shot a patternmaster choke. Like you though, I do tend to shoot everything in the head. 8)  And lets face it, the pattern out of a 20 ga at 15 yards is gonna be pretty tight no matter what tube you've got in there. I've stated I shoot a lot, and it sounds like you do too. But for most guys who shoot only when they go hunting and have regular over the counter stuff, an open choke is going to put more birds in their bag. Provided they manage the distance they shoot at stuff. (no skybusting) I've got some fancy-pants chokes for different application's, but I always find myself coming back the to meat and potatoes stuff in the end.

Curious question, how does the patternmaster work on lead? Are the physics and principles the same or are they made primarily for waterfowl and steel shot? I always use my fancy-pants chokes with steel because I get so much better patterns with them. Now how _long_ my shot string is with those chokes, I haven't a clue. I only know my patterns are dense and uniform and when I shoot ducks with them they fall out of the air like a loaf of bread.


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

Every bird in the head!!?? Man, you gotta start shooting marble sized clays. Thats amazing.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Nor-tah said:


> Every bird in the head!!?? Man, you gotta start shooting marble sized clays. Thats amazing.


I hope you noticed the little winky guy when I proclaimed that I shoot everything in the head. 

Head shot birds are nice and I do get my share of them but it's because I always lead the head specifically the eyeball when shooting birds. Aim small, miss small. :mrgreen:


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## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> [quote="Nor-tah":q8qkbtec]Every bird in the head!!?? Man, you gotta start shooting marble sized clays. Thats amazing.


I hope you noticed the little winky guy when I proclaimed that I shoot everything in the head. 

Head shot birds are nice and I do get my share of them but it's because I always lead the head specifically the eyeball when shooting birds. Aim small, miss small. :mrgreen:[/quote:q8qkbtec]

Tex is right on the money! you hit where you aim.  If you teach yourself to base all of your lead distances on the birds head that is where you will hit almost all of the time and eventually it wont even be a concious thought. The other benefit of using the head to base your lead is that when you do happen to have just one of those days your under leading birds shots are usually still on the bird they just happen to hit the birds butt. (we all know those shots especially on ducks)

Tex to your question. The principal is still the same with lead. It is all about removing anything that can mess up your pattern such as gas or the wad. I noticed when i switched over that the down side was, as i was getting used to it i was either hitting or missing, i didnt have as many criples, which i believe was due to the much shorter shot string, and a good reload that has been patterned and used on lots of clays before being hunted with. (Im kind of ocd about getting the best pattern and performance with my handloads) The good thing is that patternmaster does sell more then just long range chokes they have chokes designed for shooting over deeks. All the choke does is help to remove as much mechanical error as possible and give you good pattern consistancy. Tex, I do happen to shoot a lot like you. I am lucky enough to have job that allows me to shoot pretty much every day of the week. I think you would really like their short range choke, and i do agree with you though an IC is a good choice for most and will put more birds in most guys bags, sometimes i just have to -O|o- .


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Baaah, I don't think you're stirring the pot at all. I love good back and forth debate. Although between you and me I don't think there is much to debate since we both share the same thoughts on wing shooting. 

I too am an anal sumbeech when it comes to my loads. I hand load everything and ALL my loads are going the same speed whether it be a 7/8 oz skeet load, or a 1 1/8 oz ****-Med. (my name for my upland loads) Keeping the same speed and consistency in my loads keeps me on the target no matter what it is because the lead never changes from sporting clays to Pheasants to quail to grouse. Only the size and speed of the bird is different NOT my loads. Now if I could just figure out how far out in front of a Hun burning down wind at 40 yards I need to be to kill it I'll be a happy camper. (I can't hit those little bastards to save my life! :evil: )


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## Nor-tah (Dec 16, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> [quote="Nor-tah":29je2igu]Every bird in the head!!?? Man, you gotta start shooting marble sized clays. Thats amazing.


I hope you noticed the little winky guy when I proclaimed that I shoot everything in the head. 

Head shot birds are nice and I do get my share of them but it's because I always lead the head specifically the eyeball when shooting birds. Aim small, miss small. :mrgreen:[/quote:29je2igu]
Yeah, I was actually refering to shootemup. I know you guys shoot a lot but geeze! Head shots!?!? Maybe some time i'll be that good. Its not wing shooting, its head shooting. :O•-:


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## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

Nor-tah get some quail clay pigeons, i promise they will make you a better shooter! I shot them for quite a while a long time ago and man did they improve my shooting skills! They also made me feel like a terrible shot for a while too. 

Tex that is funny that you load all of your shells at the same speed, because i am guilty of the same dang thing! Only the bird changes. I am also guilty of patterning dozens of recipes, counting bb's and many other things my buddies all think im crazy for. What size of shot and oz do you load for huns? and what fps do you load your shells at?


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Nor-tah said:


> Every bird in the head!!?? Man, you gotta start shooting marble sized clays. Thats amazing.


I shoot every bird in the head....and in the neck, and in the wing, breast, and leg


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Tex that is funny that you load all of your shells at the same speed, because i am guilty of the same dang thing! Only the bird changes. I am also guilty of patterning dozens of recipes, counting bb's and many other things my buddies all think im crazy for. What size of shot and oz do you load for huns? and what fps do you load your shells at?


For sporting clays, doves, quail, and the likes I load a simple 7/8 oz 8 or 7 1/2 load that leaves the barrel at about 1150 fps. For my ****-meds, which is the load I use on everything else up to and including sage grouse, I load a 1 1/8 oz load of 6's. Fed or Estate flat base hull, Remington SP20 wad, and 23 grains of HS6. That load packs in a 20 ga. hull pretty tight as you could imagine... :shock: If I could find a bunch of those old Active hulls I'd use them instead. They are a little deeper and give you a little more "fudge" room. Both those and my light loads chronograph out in the 1150 range and have an excellent pattern.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Great thread with a lot of good advice from very knowledgeable folk. I will add one more thing. I have two interchangeable barrels for my Winchester 1300, a 26 inch barrel and a 22 inch barrel and three choke tubes, full , Mod. and Improved Cylinder ( that seems to be the standard for hunting shotguns). I really enjoy jump shooting doves. So my shots at doves tend to be wide open and frequently at relatively long range. I think a very light load (1 0z from a 12 ga,) shot through a very open choke can leave holes in patterns at longer range big enough for a dove to fit in. So I prefer a little heavier shot (1 1/8 oz.) and a little tighter choke (Modified) for jump shooting doves. I like the longer sight plane of my 26 inch barrel for more precise pointing at very hard to hit targets and a little more weight forward to encourage follow through on fast flying targets. As Tex pointed out, the key word in shooting forest grouse is FOREST and forest grouse particularly blues are relatively large targets compared to doves or quail but are not particularly hard to bring down like pheasants or ducks. So you really don't have to worry about holes in patterns. So a pattern that opens quickly and gives the snap shooter a little more margin of error makes a lot of sense. But a faster handling gun also makes a lot of sense to me as well. So now that most of the doves have gone off seeking warmer weather and grouse season is upon us I have exchanged my 26 inch barrel for my 22 inch barrel and an IC tube. Now I have to go eat breakfast so I can go hunting.


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## shootemup (Nov 30, 2008)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> > Tex that is funny that you load all of your shells at the same speed, because i am guilty of the same dang thing! Only the bird changes. I am also guilty of patterning dozens of recipes, counting bb's and many other things my buddies all think im crazy for. What size of shot and oz do you load for huns? and what fps do you load your shells at?
> 
> 
> For sporting clays, doves, quail, and the likes I load a simple 7/8 oz 8 or 7 1/2 load that leaves the barrel at about 1150 fps. For my ****-meds, which is the load I use on everything else up to and including sage grouse, I load a 1 1/8 oz load of 6's. Fed or Estate flat base hull, Remington SP20 wad, and 23 grains of HS6. That load packs in a 20 ga. hull pretty tight as you could imagine... :shock: If I could find a bunch of those old Active hulls I'd use them instead. They are a little deeper and give you a little more "fudge" room. Both those and my light loads chronograph out in the 1150 range and have an excellent pattern.


I found that my biggest issues came from shooting my duck loads which were at 1485 fps and then i turned around and hunted pheasants and was shooting loads that were much slower. So i started loading federal gold medal 12 gauge hulls, with a 1oz remington wad with an 1 1/4 oz #4's, and 34.3 grains of longshot, for huns i keep it the same i just bump the shot down to #6's. For doves, grouse i shoot 1 1/8, 7 1/2. The hardest part of this load was getting the speed up with out getting big holes in the pattern. All of these loads have come out at 1485 on my chrono.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm not much of a duck hunter. I do hunt them and shoot a few every year, but I'm not a full blown waterfowl guy. My heart is in the uplands. I shoot a fast steel load (1580) but for some reason, and I don't know why, I really don't have a hard time killing with steel. The speed/lead thing just isn't an issue. In fact, I find steel 3 inch 4's are about the most deadly load I shoot. I kill everything with em, swans, geese, ducks, pheasants, you name it. But, I don't take long shots. (35 yards and in) In fact I drive the guys I hunt with nuts because I'll usually wait until they're in my face before I'll shoot. I have the same mentality with archery equipment. The closer you are, the lesser you miss.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

I use IC, I'm going to try open bore on my home defence tactical 18" barrel.


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