# Expo



## DarKHorN (Mar 4, 2012)

This appears to be a great way to benefit wildlife habitat and stuff. Who's all goin, sure would be nice to pull one of those tags.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I'll be there. I haven't drawn a expo tag since my Pauns rifle in 2012, so I think I'm due!


----------



## jimmy_hat (Feb 8, 2014)

I think the SFW has done a great job with the expo, I just wish there were more tags available.


----------



## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I'll be in the building, but not at the Expo. I'll be in the opposite end of the Palace helping out at the NASP State Tournament. Y'all ought to drop by and check it out.


----------



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Well now let's see, you got your National Association of School Psychologists, your National Association of Sales Professionals, your National Association of Subrogation Professionals, then there's your National Association of Specialty Pharmacy and the National Association for Shoplifting Prevention,and let's not forget the National Association of Settlement Purchasers and finally, last but best of all the NATIONAL ARCHERY IN THE SCHOOLS PROGRAM:grin:

Actually, my recommendation, skip the D**n expo and go straight to your convention.


----------



## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Finnegan said:


> I'll be in the building, but not at the Expo. I'll be in the opposite end of the Palace helping out at the NASP State Tournament. Y'all ought to drop by and check it out.


Nice, my daughter shoots Saturday for Wasatch.


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

This thread doesn't stand a chance...


----------



## TooeleYoungBuck (Nov 12, 2013)

I took 3rd last year with my school! Would be the chance of a lifetime to draw one of those tags though!


----------



## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

So is the shoot a team or individual comp?


----------



## jimmy_hat (Feb 8, 2014)

I thought this was about the expo pheaz. I know a guy that killed a 332 bull last year on the archery hunt, it was huge. He didn't get the tag at the expo though, so I guess I'm hijacking this thread too.


----------



## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

332" really, got any pics? I missed a 332 bull in2012 with my archery EXPO tag.


----------



## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

jimmy_hat said:


> I thought this was about the expo pheaz. I know a guy that killed a 332 bull last year on the archery hunt, it was huge. He didn't get the tag at the expo though, so I guess I'm hijacking this thread too.


332 is nothing to brag about on a LE hunt. I would've held out for at least a 333 bull.

Dear pheaztard, I hope you gag on your expo tag. Your non friend Marty.


----------



## jimmy_hat (Feb 8, 2014)

Here's the pic pheaz. It was a hog man. Some dude in a samurai tried to steal it from him.


----------



## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

You really have to watch those Asians in the samurai's. I hear they like to make soup with elk penis.


----------



## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

While thank you Marty, love you too (like a brother). I hope I can enjoy another EXPO tag.


----------



## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

pheaz said:


> While thank you Marty, love you too (like a brother). I hope I can enjoy another EXPO tag.


I will even help you pack out your kill.


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I'll help as well. What are brothers for?------SS


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

DarKHorN said:


> This appears to be a great way to benefit wildlife habitat and stuff. Who's all goin, sure would be nice to pull one of those tags.


I'll be going. One of the deer we were after last year should be mounted in the foyer. 
I'm dew for another tag.


----------



## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

jimmy_hat said:


> Here's the pic pheaz. It was a hog man. Some dude in a samurai tried to steal it from him.


Hog? 332? OK.


----------



## jimmy_hat (Feb 8, 2014)

Fish on! You can have you Boone and Crocket or whatever it is, you can't eat the horns and they don't make your thing any bigger.:mrgreen:


----------



## Guest (Feb 9, 2014)

Finnegan said:


> I'll be in the building, but not at the Expo. I'll be in the opposite end of the Palace helping out at the NASP State Tournament. Y'all ought to drop by and check it out.


National Association of Special People


----------



## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

I will be there to see my father's mountain goat mount for the first time. I like the expo and I've never put in for the tags.


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

I know people who have samurai's must have been them


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

I'll make an appearance Thurs or Fri afternoon. Really hope that Kifaru or Stone Glacier are there. I'm in the market for a new pack. Threw $25 at the draws...All but one, OIAL stuff.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

May be a dumb question but...

I have gone to the expo's here and there. Now I am wanting to hunt more than general season cuz even with the kills, my itch sticks around. I know more people that have drawn expo tags then I do the normal draw(not really but seemingly enough). So finally, my question is do the tags count against your waiting period for LE? Or even OIL for that matter? Any effect on your points?

Thanks dudes. I will be goin. My buddy dropped around $300 on tags and I plan on a modest $50-100.


----------



## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

No effect on points whatsoever.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

From the Expo web site:

*Additional Information*

The Western Hunting & Conservation Expo will combine the very best in hunting expositions with a joint national convention between two major North American wildlife conservation organizations the Mule Deer Foundation (MDF), and Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife (SFW).

200 Utah premium, limited entry, and once-in-a-lifetime trophy hunting tags will be available to any and all sportsmen (not on revocation) by public drawing for $5 per hunt unit application fee to those who apply and then validate their application in person at the Hunting Expo.* No person may apply on behalf of another.
5 Utah premium once-in-a-lifetime trophy tags will be made available for non-residents only, including 1 Desert Bighorn Sheep, 1 Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep, 1 Shiras Moose, 1 Mountain Goat and 1 Bison.*
Bonus points are not affected by your application for Hunting Expo tags. You can apply for all available permits at the Hunting Expo and your points will not be affected even if you draw one or more of the Hunting Expo tags. This is awesome! And, all waiting periods are also waived. However, you will not earn bonus points when applying for these permits.
Any person may apply for any or all available permits at the Hunting Expo regardless of what permits he/she may have drawn in previous Utah public draws (unless the person is on revocation).
You must have a valid hunting or combination license when applying for the permits.


----------



## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

MWScott72 said:


> I'll make an appearance Thurs or Fri afternoon. Really hope that Kifaru or Stone Glacier are there. I'm in the market for a new pack. Threw $25 at the draws...All but one, OIAL stuff.


Haven't seen either one on the booth list. The only one I've seen so far is Kuiu. I'm in the market for a new pack too. Have you looked at the Paradox pack through Seekoutdoors?


----------



## quartz (Dec 16, 2013)

Can someone who has applied for the expo drawing please tell me so that I don't have to enter my info just to realize I'm too poor to go through with this: 

At $5 per "hunt unit application fee", if you apply for all of the tags, how much do you spend??

Never mind, I see "My buddy dropped around $300 on tags and I plan on a modest $50-100", above. I better skip it.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

quartz said:


> Can someone who has applied for the expo drawing please tell me so that I don't have to enter my info just to realize I'm too poor to go through with this:
> 
> At $5 per "hunt unit application fee", if you apply for all of the tags, how much do you spend??
> 
> Never mind, I see "My buddy dropped around $300 on tags and I plan on a modest $50-100", above. I better skip it.


I believe it was $515 for a package for all, can't double check right now. It is literally a checklist and you go through and select as many or few hunts as you would like. Separates them by species, the weapon and region is listed. Very straight forward. I know someone who got a henry's buffalo tag and put in for 3 tags ($15) is all.

However, if you draw you pay the tag price for that species/animal like you would on a normal draw.

Goofy, thank you very much. It is a cool opportunity unfortunately I realize that the odds get worse every year. But, its my kinda lottery


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

High Desert Elk said:


> Haven't seen either one on the booth list. The only one I've seen so far is Kuiu. I'm in the market for a new pack too. Have you looked at the Paradox pack through Seekoutdoors?


Thanks for the lead on the Paradox - I'll check it out.

I did hear that Aaron with Kifaru was going to be present, but nothing on whether or not there would be a booth. Bummer!


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

RandomElk-
All that Goofy said is true; however, be aware that if you have say 10 points for an OIAL species, put in and draw an expo tag for that species, you will basically forfeit your bonus points because state law only allows you to have one OIAL tag per OIAL species (I believe the only exception is if you purchase a CWMU landowner permit for an OIAL species because that permit is not taken out of the OIAL draws).

For this reason (with 12 points for rockies), I will not apply at the expo for a rocky tag, but put my money towards OIAL species where I haven't accumulated points (desert bighorns, moose, bison, mtn. goat).


----------



## nickpan (May 6, 2008)

> However, if you draw you pay the tag price for that species/animal like you would on a normal draw.


So everybody I have talked to seem to be under the impression that you pay $5 and if you draw you get that permit, and don't have to pay for the permit like you would under the normal draw circumstances.

So to be clear, if you draw, the $5 is only for the app fee, then you have to pay for the permit?

I knew it sounded to good to be true...


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The $5 is an application fee only. You still have to pay for the license if you draw. Yes, the advertisements of "$5 hunt!" are misleading. 

And yes, if you draw a OIL tag you may no longer put in for that species in the regular draw. But you can still draw another for the same species if you're lucky enough to do it at expos in the future.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

MWScott72 said:


> RandomElk-
> All that Goofy said is true; however, be aware that if you have say 10 points for an OIAL species, put in and draw an expo tag for that species, you will basically forfeit your bonus points because state law only allows you to have one OIAL tag per OIAL species (I believe the only exception is if you purchase a CWMU landowner permit for an OIAL species because that permit is not taken out of the OIAL draws).
> 
> For this reason (with 12 points for rockies), I will not apply at the expo for a rocky tag, but put my money towards OIAL species where I haven't accumulated points (desert bighorns, moose, bison, mtn. goat).


This makes sense. Except, even though you saved the points up, what would be the downside of drawing it at the expo? I mean, isn't that the game plan anyways? You may just speed up the process and proceed to start a new OIAL quest... Thank you for the info though, I had heard the opposite to be true so I am glad to know it. Lucky for me I have enough OIAL points now to... never draw haha


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

MWScott72 said:


> RandomElk-
> All that Goofy said is true; however, be aware that if you have say 10 points for an OIAL species, put in and draw an expo tag for that species, you will basically forfeit your bonus points because state law only allows you to have one OIAL tag per OIAL species (I believe the only exception is if you purchase a CWMU landowner permit for an OIAL species because that permit is not taken out of the OIAL draws).
> 
> For this reason (with 12 points for rockies), I will not apply at the expo for a rocky tag, but put my money towards OIAL species where I haven't accumulated points (desert bighorns, moose, bison, mtn. goat).


Are you sure this is true? This is not my understanding but I can't find anything official. I was under the understanding that Expo Tags were exemt from all waiting periods and elegebility meaning that if you were lucky enough to draw an expo moose tag each year that you could hunt moose every year. I'm sure someone can clarify.-------SS


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Springville Shooter said:


> Are you sure this is true? This is not my understanding but I can't find anything official. I was under the understanding that Expo Tags were exemt from all waiting periods and elegebility meaning that if you were lucky enough to draw an expo moose tag each year that you could hunt moose every year. I'm sure someone can clarify.-------SS


This is what I have heard from most expo guys.. Maybe that goofy dude on here, whats his name... Ummm... Oh yeah, Goofy! Maybe he knows...

Edit: heaven forbid more dwr guys arent on the dwr site


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

MWScott72 said:


> RandomElk-
> All that Goofy said is true; however, be aware that if you have say 10 points for an OIAL species, put in and draw an expo tag for that species, you will basically forfeit your bonus points because state law only allows you to have one OIAL tag per OIAL species (I believe the only exception is if you purchase a CWMU landowner permit for an OIAL species because that permit is not taken out of the OIAL draws).


To be precise, once you have obtained an OIL tag by any method, you can never again apply in the public draws for that species. However, you can still purchase a moose tag from a CWMU or you could purchase any of the OIL Conservation (auctioned) tags at the EXPO or at some of the banquets. And, for that matter, you could also get lucky and draw another EXPO tag another year for the same species. In other words, you could hunt every Utah OIL species every year for the rest of your life if you had the money (And time and health and entourage/guides!) or were super-duper lucky.

As for the waiting periods which apply to the LE tags, they waive the waiting period up front for the EXPO or auctioned tags, but start a new one for the public draw once you draw or purchase any LE tag. And your LE bonus points (or any preference points) remain the same on both ends.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^^^^^ Yep ^^^^^^^^^^

Bonus points are not affected by your application for Hunting Expo tags. You can apply for all available permits at the Hunting Expo and your points will not be affected even if you draw one or more of the Hunting Expo tags. This is awesome! And, all waiting periods are also waived. However, you will not earn bonus points when applying for these permits. 
Any person may apply for any or all available permits at the Hunting Expo regardless of what permits he/she may have drawn in previous Utah public draws (unless the person is on revocation).


----------



## DarKHorN (Mar 4, 2012)

berrysblaster said:


> This thread doesn't stand a chance...


Whatever do you mean son? A lot of good info here, not one negative SFW can eat dog poo yet. I like the expo :thumbsup:


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> ^^^^^^^^^ Yep ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Bonus points are not affected by your application for Hunting Expo tags. You can apply for all available permits at the Hunting Expo and your points will not be affected even if you draw one or more of the Hunting Expo tags. This is awesome! And, all waiting periods are also waived. However, you will not earn bonus points when applying for these permits.
> Any person may apply for any or all available permits at the Hunting Expo regardless of what permits he/she may have drawn in previous Utah public draws (unless the person is on revocation).


I'm pretty sure they changed the rule this year. Saying that if a person has drawn a OIL tag in the past (State or Expo) ,they can not apply/put in for that species.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^ The blue quote is pulled right from the 2014 expo application page^^^^^

Here's the link:

http://www.huntexpo.com/apply.php


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

TS30 said:


> And yes, if you draw a OIL tag you may no longer put in for that species in the regular draw. But you can still draw another for the same species if you're lucky enough to do it at expos in the future.


From post #34 on this thread...and yes, it is the law. As stated after this, if you are lucky enough to draw a bison expo tag every year for the next 5 years, as the law is currently constituted, you will be able to hunt bison for the next 5 years.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

^^^^^^^ Yep again ..... ^^^^^^^^^^^

The expo is maybe the BEST oppertunity for drawing OIAL permits .

Especialy for those not high on the bonus point count..;-)..


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

TS30 said:


> From post #34 on this thread...and yes, it is the law. As stated after this, if you are lucky enough to draw a bison expo tag every year for the next 5 years, as the law is currently constituted, you will be able to hunt bison for the next 5 years.


For clarity, the "Once-In-A-Lifetime" designation refers only to the public draws (Regular and Sportsman) and you're only allowed to draw one of those tags for each OIL species during your lifetime (The antlerless moose tag is the exception if we ever get back to them). But the Conservation (auctioned), Convention (EXPO), Landowner and private CWMU distributions are not considered public draws and you could obtain any of those tags on your own depending on your finances and/or your luck.


----------



## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

elkfromabove said:


> For clarity, the "Once-In-A-Lifetime" designation refers only to the public draws (Regular and Sportsman) and you're only allowed to draw one of those tags for each OIL species during your lifetime (The antlerless moose tag is the exception if we ever get back to them). But the Conservation (auctioned), Convention (EXPO), Landowner and private CWMU distributions are not considered public draws and you could obtain any those tags on you own depending on your finances and/or your luck.


Yes, precisely what I was trying to say. You could draw multiple tags at the Expo for the same OIAL species year after year (theoretically) and hunt until blue in the face, BUT once you draw one of those OIAL Expo tags, you CANNOT draw that same species tag in the public draws. So if I draw a Rocky tag at the Expo, I throw away the 12 points/years I have in the public draw. I would rather try and draw one of the other Expo OIAL species and continue building points towards an eventual Rocky hunt which are getting better and better each year as my bonus points accrue(as long as the sheep herds don't tank as they so often do). Let's say, I draw a Desert tag at the Expo...I get to hunt that species while still building points for an eventual public draw Rocky tag. If I draw the Rocky tag at the Expo, everything is blown in one wad. Looking at odds for OIALs thru the public draw, I'd have to be one lucky arsed individual to draw another public OIAL tag starting from scratch. Sure, someone has to, but the odds are pitiful.


----------



## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

I used to think the expo tags were neat. Then I realized that by applying for them I was giving financial support to my worst enemy as a hunter. I like seeing the taxidermy and vendors but I refuse to give another dime to an organization that has done so much damage to the sport of hunting. 

There, a negative post for y'all :mrgreen:


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I too oppose most of what SFW has become. I guess my desire for tags is stronger than my opposition though.


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

TS30 said:


> I too oppose most of what SFW has become. I guess my desire for tags is stronger than my opposition though.


I hear what you're saying TS30... Too bad there are so many with the same thought process. And that is one of the main reasons Utah wildlife management won't change in the forseeable future. A shame, really.


----------



## brookieguy1 (Oct 14, 2008)

Holy crap. No wonder I gave up hunting. Not a bit complicated is it?
I'll just go fishin'.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

brookieguy1 said:


> Holy crap. No wonder I gave up hunting. Not a bit complicated is it?
> I'll just go fishin'.


Not as complicated as trying to figure out where I can and can't fish in Utah these days! :x



stillhunterman said:


> I hear what you're saying TS30... Too bad there are so many with the same thought process. And that is one of the main reasons Utah wildlife management won't change in the forseeable future. A shame, really.


I have to respectfully disagree. The reason why wildlife management in Utah won't change is because despite what the silent majority of public hunters in Utah thinks about this, the DWR, Wildlife Board, and probably most importantly, the legislature believes these expos and auction tags are a resounding success. I've learned through the issue I implied to brookieguy above that the legislature doesn't give a crap about what the silent public says. They care about what the vocal minority that is willing to talk with their pocket books say. Certainly my applying for a tag at the expo in hopes to draw a hunt I would never be able to draw otherwise won't change a worthless group of elected officials minds.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

TS30 said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. The reason why wildlife management in Utah won't change is because despite what the silent majority of public hunters in Utah thinks about this, the DWR, Wildlife Board, and probably most importantly, the legislature believes these expos and auction tags are a resounding success. .


This has to be the most trueful/acurate post I've ever read on
this fourm about the Expo, and the conservasation permits !!!

100% AGREE


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

KSL TV news just covered opening day at the Expo ...

Quote, " A VERY large crowd at the ribbon cutting for the Expo this year" ..


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

goofy elk said:


> This has to be the most trueful/acurate post I've ever read on
> this fourm about the Expo, and the conservasation permits !!!
> 
> 100% AGREE


 And do you agree 100% with the portion of the post you omitted?


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

TS30 said:


> Not as complicated as trying to figure out where I can and can't fish in Utah these days! :x
> 
> I have to respectfully disagree. The reason why wildlife management in Utah won't change is because despite what the silent majority of public hunters in Utah thinks about this, the DWR, Wildlife Board, and probably most importantly, the legislature believes these expos and auction tags are a resounding success. I've learned through the issue I implied to brookieguy above that the legislature doesn't give a crap about what the silent public says. They care about what the vocal minority that is willing to talk with their pocket books say. Certainly my applying for a tag at the expo in hopes to draw a hunt I would never be able to draw otherwise won't change a worthless group of elected officials minds.


I was a bit vague in my post, appologies. The key words you used above is "silent majority". Utah hunters don't care enough to NOT be silent about the issues that are hurting them, such as the way SFW and MDF are doing business here in the state. By you and many others applying for the welfare tags does in fact, speak to the legislatures you're talking about, as well as the UDWR and the WB. What would happen to the expo should the 200 welfare tags be cut down to say 25, or 10? Would it still be a success? If the tags simply went away, would the expo be able to stand on its own legs? According to SFW and MDF, it is SOOOOOO successful, it ranks right up there with all the others in the country. If that's the case, why do they need the tags?

Utah hunters don't care enough to stop the bleeding, and continuing to support the cause of the bleeding will do nothing to stop it: thus my privious statement. Anyway, good luck and hope you draw. As for me, no thanks, I'll continue to apply the old fashioned way and still have a great time on the hunt.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

They either don't care enough, or they don't see the same problems and feel the way you do. 

I think the vast majority of guys are neither for nor against expo tags. That is kind of my rule in life. 10-15% of people are really for something, 10-15% are really against that thing, and the other 70-80% are...'meh'.... 

Thanks for the well wishes! I will enjoy my hunting season this year whether I draw or not as well.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

One other rule..........90% of people are uninformed. The other 15% are misinformed.


----------



## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

I'm sure many are already aware. But Wyoming, Arizona and Idaho all offer similar tag raffle systems as well. Nice thing is that you are able to buy the tickets online, and you don't have to be present to win.  As far as I'm aware those programs go strait to the state so it seems pretty awesome.


----------



## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Yep. An LOTTERY is Against the law in the land of ZION..Unless it"s For some kinda Wildlife Tag..


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

oldfudd said:


> Yep. An LOTTERY is Against the law in the land of ZION..Unless it"s For some kinda Wildlife Tag..


Oh see there is the issue right there... Everyone thinks its a lottery?? No no, its a "raffle"... Silly guys, easy mistake


----------



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

RandomElk16 said:


> Oh see there is the issue right there... Everyone thinks its a lottery?? No no, its a "raffle"... Silly guys, easy mistake


No,no it's a drawing.....or wait since it all happens outside the door, is it a door prize?? So confusing.-----SS


----------



## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

Seems we go through this type of thread every year. Personally I like the expo but I don't like several aspects of the expo. 

Lets begin with tags; I don't like the fact that there are OIL tags set aside for Non Residents only. I have been told that the reason for these tags are to bring outside dollars into SLC, I say so what and I wonder (I am sure someone on this thread knows) do those NR tags come out of the NR allotment for the area? Utah gives more tags to conservation groups than all the western states combined and I really don't like that. Stop giving away the publics resources. 

We all understand that conservation groups are needed but man give me a break, every time I open a FNAWS book, look at the Expo tag results there always a big shot in one of the groups that drew a tag. I am not implying that there is a nefarious plot but it is one of those things that make you go hmmm. 

And last but not least while at the Expo today I overheard an interesting conversation between some folks, no I wasn't eves dropping, the conversation was quite loud and in a confined space that echos, okay where all the swinging Richards hang out; one gentleman said to the other "I think we will break the record for a tag this weekend for a North American animal" the other guy replied "oh yeah? how much is that" and the reply was "480K", now who benefits from all that.

Now that I need some cheese with this wine, I still like the expo! I just don't like some aspects of it. It should either stand on it's own or go the way of the dinosaurs.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

300 Wby said:


> Seems we go through this type of thread every year. Personally I like the expo but I don't like several aspects of the expo.
> 
> Lets begin with tags; I don't like the fact that there are OIL tags set aside for Non Residents only. I have been told that the reason for these tags are to bring outside dollars into SLC, I say so what and I wonder (I am sure someone on this thread knows) do those NR tags come out of the NR allotment for the area? Utah gives more tags to conservation groups than all the western states combined and I really don't like that. Stop giving away the publics resources.
> 
> ...


I honastly dont see this going away or changing any time soon....
And personaly, I dont mind the the trip to SLC to apply ....JMHO.


----------



## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

Goofy,
Thanks for the info on the NR pool. I figured someone would know.

I didn't do a very good job in explaining the giving away our (public) resources. My point is that Wyoming, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, New Mexico and Arizona all have habitat/conservation needs as well and, they don't give nearly the permits that Utah does to conservation groups. Does Utah need that much more habitat/conservation than those states combined? That is my point about giving away our resources.

I have said that I do enjoy the expo and I do know that conservation groups are needed. I am just not sure as to the extent that the scarce public resources (OIL species) should be provided to conservation groups.

Lastly on the tag, glad that it sold for that amount of money, I was only relaying the conversation. I do have to ask about your comment of 271K into habitat. Does that funding go into the habitat budget that is then used for vehicles, fuel, salaries? Or does it have to be used for seeding etc? Just gotta throw a dig in there is all.

I do agree that it is not going to change anytime soon and I do not mind the trip to SLC as well.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

For clarification....the money doesn't go to 'Utah habitat' in a broad sense. It goes specifically to Antelope Island. Right? 

I think the state should reign in the expo and auction tags to the extent that the state should keep almost all the money on public draw tags. That is really my only beef with the process.


----------



## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Springville Shooter said:


> No,no it's a drawing.....or wait since it all happens outside the door, is it a door prize?? So confusing.-----SS


SS now you've got me confused. :finger:


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

TS30 said:


> For clarification....the money doesn't go to 'Utah habitat' in a broad sense. It goes specifically to Antelope Island. Right?
> 
> I think the state should reign in the expo and auction tags to the extent that the state should keep almost all the money on public draw tags. That is really my only beef with the process.


I'm not sure about the island tags specifically, but the state does keep/utilize almost all of the money on the Conservation (auctioned) tag distributions, but none of the money for the Convention (EXPO) tag $5 application fees.

The way it works is this:

Thirty percent of the auctioned tag money goes directly to the division and is used for their own purposes. I'm not sure if it's mandated to any specific species or projects or whether it can be used for new vehicles, etc., but that accounting is to the state. Then 60% is retained by the conservation organization in a separate account and is used ONLY on DWR approved or initiated wildlife projects including habitat. (It can't be used to pay salaries, supplies, consultation fees, etc.). The remaining 10% is retained by the conservation organization in their general funds and can be used for whatever they want. Sometimes that money also goes into habitat, but that's up to the organization.

However, the $5 EXPO application fees (approx. $1M per year) are under no mandate and are retained by the EXPO promoters (Currently MDF and SFW) and are not kept separate nor are they audited by the state. However, there is currently, per the proposal by UWC, a series of negotiation meetings going on and/or planned with UWC, MDF, SFW and DWR to revise the EXPO contract when it comes up in 2016 to include a mandate similar to the auctioned tag contracts. We'll have to wait and see how that turns out.

In the meanwhile, the issue of the numbers of tags in these programs may continue to be a subject of discussion and concern (Personally, I have an objection to the number of OIL tags in these programs. I think we can absorb the LE tags, but I think there are too many OIL tags.) as well as the issue that these programs and the money generated provide a distorted influence from the organizations to the RAC's and Wildlife Board decisions. IMHO of course!


----------



## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

I think there might be a tag tonight that goes for more than 305k. Guess we will see.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Goofy- sorry, but you don't remember correctly. The Non-Res Convention Permits are not pulled from the nonresident pool of permits. They are simply taken from the unit before the Res-NonRes splits are applied for the regular draw. 

For example- 2013--
The Draw for Zion Desert Bighorns had 6 resident tags and 1 nonresident. Nonresidents usually qualify for 10% of the permits, but we can see that 6 and 1 is more than 10%. There was also 1 Nonresident tag given through the expo. That expo permit came from the Resident portion of the tags. (Certainly would not have been 6 and 2 in the draw)

The draw for the 9 Mile Rocky tag is similar- 13 resident tags and 1 non-resident. The 1 tag for the convention, given to non-residents only, came Resident Portion of the permits.

It looks to me that each of the 2013 OIL tags given to the Convention came from the resident portion of the draw allocation. Maybe one Mtn Goat permit might have been issued as a Non-Res in the draw.

The other ltd big game permits came largely from the resident pool of permits also-- like 80%+ of the Convention permits were taken from the Resident Pool of Draw permits. 

Not taking sides on the issue, but might as well have the facts if people want to discuss the issue.


----------



## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

AI tag went to Denny A. for 305k.


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Muley73 said:


> I think there might be a tag tonight that goes for more than 305k. Guess we will see.


Which hunt? Has to be a big one!

I support the proposal by the UWC to get the application fees under the same rules as the auction money. There just isn't any good reason the public should not be the benefactor of all the application money here since it is ENTIRELY public land and public animals being utilized. As for the number of tags....the expo might be my best (or only) chance to draw a OIL tag. That's pretty sad.


----------



## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

1.4 million, Yukon Dall and Moose combo. 


The Governor seemed pretty happy about the expo when he talked tonight. I'm guessing there won't be much change in the set up in coming years. Lots of dollars spent tonight going toward the future of wildlife. Thank you to all that put the money out.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

that's just absolutely absurd IMO. I'm sorry but if a person has 1.4 million to blow..........rephrase.............if I had 1.4 Million to blow.........there are way too many PEOPLE that could use some help. Just my two cents.


----------



## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

The sportsman donated the hunt back and they re auctioned it off. Guess he felt like giving 1.4 million to a good cause.


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> 1.4 million, Yukon Dall and Moose combo.
> 
> The Governor seemed pretty happy about the expo when he talked tonight. I'm guessing there won't be much change in the set up in coming years. Lots of dollars spent tonight going toward the future of wildlife. Thank you to all that put the money out.


 I'd be interested in knowing what conservation organization and what government/state agency pulled that off and what their financial arrangement is. Anybody know?


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> I'd be interested in knowing what conservation organization and what government/state agency pulled that off and what their financial arrangement is. Anybody know?


^^^^^So would I !!....that hunt resold for 22K^^^^^

Other prices tags sold for:

Utah state wide deer----135K
Utah state wide elk-----130K
Henrys deer -----------90K
Zion big horn sheep-----70K
San Juan sheep-------50K
Newfounland sheep-----85k
Arizona state wide deer--220K

Several of Utahs LE elk permits went for 30K+


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Goofy, do you have a list of them all?


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> that's just absolutely absurd IMO. I'm sorry but if a person has 1.4 million to blow..........rephrase.............if I had 1.4 Million to blow.........there are way too many PEOPLE that could use some help. Just my two cents.


Are we assuming this person doesn't help people as well? I think that would be completely unfair, unless you can personally state this person doesn't.

People and organizations give millions to wildlife and conservation causes regularly. Should they all stop doing that and only give the help to the PEOPLE that need help? Kiss your wildlife good bye if that's the case...


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

TS30 said:


> Are we assuming this person doesn't help people as well? I think that would be completely unfair, unless you can personally state this person doesn't.
> 
> People and organizations give millions to wildlife and conservation causes regularly. Should they all stop doing that and only give the help to the PEOPLE that need help? Kiss your wildlife good bye if that's the case...


You must be assuming that I am assuming. I do assume that when you say "we" you mean "me". Don't read so much into it. I never said anything remotely close to what you infer.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> Goofy, do you have a list of them all?


Sorry Ridge,no,, I dont have all of them ...


----------



## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> You must be assuming that I am assuming. I do assume that when you say "we" you mean "me". Don't read so much into it. I never said anything remotely close to what you infer.


I'm not inferring or reading into anything here. Just responding to what was written. I can appreciate if the post was written differently than it was intended in your mind. We all do that at times. But on its face the post seemed pretty unfair.

I heard $40k for the statewide moose and $50k for the goat tag, to add to the tallies. Anyone know what the elephant hunt went for?


----------



## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

The State goat went for 41k and the Elephant went for 27,500

Ridge, I have a list if you want me to PM you.


----------



## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> The State goat went for 41k and the Elephant went for 27,500
> 
> Ridge, I have a list if you want me to PM you.


Could you just post it up here, I'd find it informational. I've never been to one of those auctions.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

The 27,500 for the Elephant. Is that per day.
I'm sure the Liberals in this state are spending over seven figures per year to try and kill the elephant in the state of Utah.-O,-


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

TS30 said:


> I'm not inferring or reading into anything here. Just responding to what was written. I can appreciate if the post was written differently than it was intended in your mind. We all do that at times. But on its face the post seemed pretty unfair.
> 
> I heard $40k for the statewide moose and $50k for the goat tag, to add to the tallies. Anyone know what the elephant hunt went for?


I just have issues with the auction as a whole. I think that 90% of the money goes back to wildlife in the state that the tags originate. That is a lot of clams that are swept under the table and into somebody's pocket. 100% of tag money should go back to wildlife. I just don't see why states have to outsource this kind of thing.

I have zero problem with people donating to the cause or any cause for that matter. I just don't always agree with how the causes function. Why not just donate the 1.4 million directly other than the fact that the guy wouldn't be able to have his name spread all over the place as a generous big spender?


----------



## mightybowhunter (Jul 14, 2008)

I went to the expo with my family on Friday. This was the first time that we had been there for two or three years. I have to say, I enjoyed it. There were a ton of nice animals and some pretty good vendors. However, my wife and I commented on the way home how this whole thing has turned into a money grab and a rich man's event...the price of these tags validate this. The again, if someone is willing to throw away that kind of money, I am happy that the money can be used for conservation....just transparency and assurance is needed in the process.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I just don't see why states have to outsource this kind of thing.
> ?


You only have to look as far as Wyoming, and their game and fish dept
struggle's in financing going on right now!!!!!!!!!!

VERY, very unforcunate for Wyoming, and the future of hunting there.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

goofy elk said:


> You only have to look as far as Wyoming, and their game and fish dept
> struggle's in financing going on right now!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> VERY, very unforcunate for Wyoming, and the future of hunting there.


All the more reason to in-source rather than outsource. Running an auction is not exactly rocket science so why guarantee somebody else 10% on a state resource that sells itself? Piss poor business strategy model right there.


----------



## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> All the more reason to in-source rather than outsource. Running an auction is not exactly rocket science so why guarantee somebody else 10% on a state resource that sells itself? Piss poor business strategy model right there.


Why don't these great groups that do so much volunteering, volunteer the auction service? That seems like a great way to directly impact the utah wildlife. Isn't that their goal?

Don't tell me they need the finances to help utah, by taking funds from the state?


----------



## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

Mr Muleskinner said:


> I just have issues with the auction as a whole. I think that 90% of the money goes back to wildlife in the state that the tags originate. That is a lot of clams that are swept under the table and into somebody's pocket. 100% of tag money should go back to wildlife. I just don't see why states have to outsource this kind of thing.
> 
> I have zero problem with people donating to the cause or any cause for that matter. I just don't always agree with how the causes function. Why not just donate the 1.4 million directly other than the fact that the guy wouldn't be able to have his name spread all over the place as a generous big spender?


Here is the info for the conservation permit program. It's pretty informational and worth a few minutes of your time.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in...g/big-game/839-conservationpermitprogram.html

The funding breaks down as follows.

_After the permits are auctioned, the funds are allocated as follows:_


_The group that sold the permits retains 10 percent of the proceeds to cover administrative costs. The group can keep that money for its own use, but groups sometimes donate it back to the DWR._
_The DWR receives 30 percent to benefit the species for which the permits were sold._
_The remaining 60 percent may be kept by the group that sold the permits. Those funds *must be spent on DWR-approved wildlife projects or activities*. Groups must follow the administrative rule to continue participating in the Conservation Permit Program._
I think that most folks would consider 90% efficiency awfully good. I seriously doubt that the DWR could run the program any more efficiently on their own. In fact, that is the number that most charitable organizations shoot for.

The biggest argument for using conservation organizations is the fact that they operate as a 503(c). I don't think the DWR can legally establish and operate a 503(c). Selling the permits through an organization that can provide a tax deduction for the purchase of the permit increases the value of the tags by 30-50% which maximizes value of the tags sold.

In some recent conversations I have had, there are a whole new group of people now purchasing conservation permits. The prices for these tags have gone through the roof in the past two years fueled primarily by these new buyers looking for a fun way to get a tax deduction.

I know there is a lot of controversy revolving around these tags. I don't like everything about all the organizations that are using them. But, you can't deny the benefits that Utah is starting to realize as a result of the conservation tag program.


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Dahlmer said:


> Here is the info for the conservation permit program. It's pretty informational and worth a few minutes of your time.
> 
> http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting-in...g/big-game/839-conservationpermitprogram.html
> 
> ...


Believe me when I say that I have done my share of research on the subject. There are plenty of loopholes within the administrative rule that are taken advantage of and plenty of people that are running the non-profits that benefit greatly from them.

Do the states benefit? Certainly, but at what cost? There is a reason that Joe Hunter is feeling pushed out more and more where as Rich Hunter never will. There is a reason that many of these generous wealthy do gooders have the walls of their trophy lodge adorned with racks that once roamed state land. The ends don't always justify the means. In the case of auctioned tags I doubt that I will ever accept the means.

*How much have the mule deer benefited versus the Mule Deer Foundation?

*
*How much have the mule deer benefited versus the SFW?

*


----------



## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Mule,
I have hammered the SFW in the past on the condition of our mule deer herds. But I will give credit recently. The numbers from the coyote study being done on the Monroe are very good. I hope it continues and proves to show good results. Without SFW pushing on this issue we would not see the effort we currently are with coyote removal.


----------



## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Dahlmer said:


> I think that most folks would consider 90% efficiency awfully good. I seriously doubt that the DWR could run the program any more efficiently on their own. In fact, that is the number that most charitable organizations shoot for.
> 
> The biggest argument for using conservation organizations is the fact that they operate as a 503(c). I don't think the DWR can legally establish and operate a 503(c). Selling the permits through an organization that can provide a tax deduction for the purchase of the permit increases the value of the tags by 30-50% which maximizes value of the tags sold.
> 
> ...


I don't know about the 503(c) laws over the years, but the UDWR actually had their own auctioned permit program until 1995 (or 1996, see (sic)'s below) when they went totally to conservation organizations. Why that changed, I'm not sure ,but you should note three things, (1) back then DWR received all of the proceeds, either in cash or man-hours. (2) NONE of the tag proceeds went to the organization (3) there were only 6 DWR auctioned tags and 8 Conservation tags. Things have changed!

Per the 1993 Big Game Proclamation, page 59:

"VIII. Other Permit Opportunities
A. Bid Permits
(1) The division accepts the highest bid offered for bid permit species.

(2) Bid permits include two categories, Auction and Sealed Bid.

(a) Auction permits are available for one desert and one Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep (Rattlesnake Unit) in 1994 (sic?). Both permits for these species will be auctioned at the annual national convention of the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep in the late winter of 1994 (sic?). Utah residents interested in bidding for either of the bighorn permits may bid during the auction by telephone from the Salt Lake division office. the telephone bidder may place bids with an auction representative as the auction occurs. The successful telephone bidder must pay for the permit at the time of the auction. Persons interested in the bighorn auction may contact the Salt Lake division office in January, 1994 (sic?), for specific details.
(b) Sealed Bids are available for one buck deer, one bull elk, one bull moose and one bison in 1994. The minimum bid for each is $5,000. The 1993 sealed bid permits have been awarded.
(i) Bids must be mailed to: _"Utah Big Game Bid Applications", P.__O._
_Box 16500, Salt Lake City, UT 84116_ and must indicate on the
outside of the envelope the species for which is bid.
(ii) Sealed bids for 1994 are accepted from January 1, through
January 31, at the Salt Lake division office.
(iii) Sealed bids will be opened on February 3, 1994. The successful 
bidder must submit payment for the permit in legal tender to the 
Salt Lake division office within 10 days of notification. Failure to
submit payment within 10 days nullifies the bid."

The 1993 Big Game Proclamation also includes Conservation Permits (2 buck deer $2,500 min, 2 bull elk $5,000 min, 2 buck pronghorn $1,250 min and 2 bull moose $5,000 min) which are auctioned through non-profit conservation organizations at their DWR sanctioned functions and :

"All funds derived from the sale of conservation permits must be used for big game management, habitat enhancement or big game transplants as selected by the division.", and:

"Conservation organizations that auction permits must match the permit sales amount in dollars or in equivalent man-hour value based on a rate of $15 per man hour.", and:

"No portion of the matching funds or man hours may be accredited to the organization's overhead, marketing of permits or any other organization use.", and:

"No single conservation organization may obtain more than two permits annually except in the case that unsold conservation permits are available."

In the 1994 Proclamation, the DWR sealed bid permits were eliminated and the bull elk and buck deer were added to the DWR auction tags while the moose and bison tags were added to the conservation quota along with an additional bison tag and a goat tag. So the division ended up with only 4 auctioned tags while the conservation groups now had 12 tags, and thus the march began. The division currently auctions 0 tags and the conservation groups auction about 198 buck and bull tags (2011 figures and that's not counting antlerless, cougar, bear and turkey).

Like I said, things have changed!


----------



## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Muley73 said:


> Mule,
> I have hammered the SFW in the past on the condition of our mule deer herds. But I will give credit recently. The numbers from the coyote study being done on the Monroe are very good. I hope it continues and proves to show good results. Without SFW pushing on this issue we would not see the effort we currently are with coyote removal.


I know they do good and give them credit for that but I think that the price is too high. Transparency is key with any group and they simply don't have it. They won't until they are forced to.


----------



## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

Muley73 said:


> Mule,
> I have hammered the SFW in the past on the condition of our mule deer herds. But I will give credit recently. The numbers from the coyote study being done on the Monroe are very good. I hope it continues and proves to show good results. Without SFW pushing on this issue we would not see the effort we currently are with coyote removal.


^^^^ That's Koolaid drunk if ever I saw it!

Coyotes are everywhere, eat everything, and are prolific even where there aren't deer, antelope, elk, unicorn, etc... why is that? And why is the division finally taking a stand, albeit subtle, to an engineer/businessman telling biologists how to read and interpret data? Specifically concerning the transplants taking place?

Time for a napkin meeting I suppose....Wendy's anyone?


----------



## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Kdad,
My comments are based off the #s from the DWR biologist. No napkin on this one just the numbers from the biologists study.


----------

