# Rifle and caliber



## Sawbillslayer (Oct 24, 2013)

If you were to get a new rifle, what brand would it be and what caliber and why? Please answer why to both brand and caliber. 

I am going to be buying a new rifle soon and have been doing my homework and was just curious what people think of when purchasing a new rifle. I am looking for a rifle that could be used from antelope to elk. I have been looking at the .270 wsm or a .300 win mag, either in Remington or Savage.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

You didn't list what guns if any you already have. 

Assuming you don't have any rifles, I'd pick a 280 over the 270. From there go visit a couple gun stores and shoulder several different brands to find one you like.

-DallanC


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## outdoorser (Jan 14, 2013)

I think if I were to purchase a new rifle right now I'd go with either a Hogue 1500 in .300 Win Mag or a Ruger American in idk what caliber.

Course I change my mind a lot, tomorrow I'd probably want something different. And besides i'd probably just go with whatever gun/caliber that I find a good used one for. I'm not going to be buying a new rifle for a _Long time_:-(


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

My next gun will be a .280 AI. But I reload so that works for me. That said, I currently shoot a Weatherby vanguard series 2 backcountry in .270 win. It is a pleasure to carry, accurate, and kills like lightning. This is my first weatherby rifle and it has been very reliable and sub MOA accuracy was relatively easy to achieve.

What guns do you have and what is your target species to hunt with it?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

There are a whole bunch of factors to consider when purchasing a new rifle and caliber. Do you want a heavy barrel, or light? What type of action do you prefer? Wood, synthetic (and they are not all created equal), or laminate stock? Blued or stainless steel? Do you reload? 
Right now component availability is a factor in caliber choice. WSM brass is not common, but there is plenty of the standard calibers on the shelf. Bullets in any caliber seem to be scarce, especially the ones favored by the long range guys. Magnum powders are almost non-existent right now. 
Price range is another consideration.


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## izzydog (Jan 18, 2008)

If you lean towards a Savage in 300 Win Mag, I would cut you a great deal on mine. It has had 20 rounds through it to break in the barrel. I just don't need a 300 and 300wsm.


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

Anything that doesn't have a belted cartridge. They DON'T make the case any stronger. They do cause problems with headspacing and reloading.

⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


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## Sawbillslayer (Oct 24, 2013)

I have a .243 Its a custom gun that is an heirloom from great uncle, I know it has a mauser action but I couldn't tell you anything else about it sweet shooting gun. I also have a 7mm Rem Mag Remmington model 715. This weapon is going to be taking mostly deer and elk. I have only killed 4 deer and 2 elk with my 7mm Rem Mag and I have not shot anything but coyotes with the .243. My wife is going to be hunting with the 7mm and so I need another rifle to hunt with. I like synthetic and stainless. I currently do not reload because I cant have my reloading stuff in my apartment. I have yet to set it all up at my dads.


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

Cooper Arms Of Montana - Because they are American made, well built, beautiful and awesome.

.243 - Because I like it. Would be great for antelope and deer, but a bit on the small side for elk IMO.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Sawbillslayer said:


> If you were to get a new rifle, what brand would it be and what caliber and why? Please answer why to both brand and caliber.
> 
> I am going to be buying a new rifle soon and have been doing my homework and was just curious what people think of when purchasing a new rifle. I am looking for a rifle that could be used from antelope to elk. I have been looking at the .270 wsm or a .300 win mag, either in Remington or Savage.


I'm assuming you don't reload, so as much as I love 700 actions, I'd suggest you get a Savage. It would probably be a tich more accurate out of the box. A "regular" .270 or a 300 Win are both excellent choices. If you reload it'll open a whole new world for your choices.


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

I'd give plus 1 to the .270 idea. I've never met anyone who was disappointed with the caliber. Run some 150 grain rounds through it and you'll be good to go. If you do start reloading and you feel the 150's for some odd reason don't have enough behind them, there is a semi-spitzer 160 grain partition listed in Nosler Reloading Guide 7 pushed at a max speed of 2828. Bet it would do some serious damage as a large game weapon, if you turned that .243 into a varmint/deer gun with some 100 grain hornady interlocks/sierra prohunters.

edit, I've also got my eye on a weatherby if I ever buy another bolt gun for the sake of quality and the feel of the weapon. However, those browning x-bolts look pretty spiffy, and are as light as can be.


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

Based on reputation, Savage will give you the most accuracy for the money, though Remington may be prettier.

There is nothing wrong with either caliber you chose. The .270 will have less recoil and therefore be more pleasant to shoot.

If you by chance you would consider something other than a bolt action rifle, a Savage lever action model 99 in .308 Winchester is a wonderful gun, and in factory loadings a .308 comes close to a .30-06 in power and trajectory. However, the model 99 is only available as a used gun.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

The 270 Winchester is never a bad choice. If you reload, the 280 Remington is for all intents and purposes identical, but factory ammo is loaded to lower pressures, so the 270 will out perform it by a slight margin. The 270 will also have the edge in variety and availability. You will not notice a performance difference between either and the 7mm Mag, but your shoulders, ears, and wallet will.
Don't let a belt on the case influence you either way. They hurt nothing and help the same. Most reloaders ignore it and adjust their sizing dies to headspace off of the shoulder of the case. 
The 300 Winchester will give a measurable increase in performance over the 270, but only in bullet diameter and weight. You will get similar trajectories from similar bullets of similar sectional densities. The only disadvantage the 270 has is a lack of match bullets of a VLD design. Not because they can't make them, but because there has not been a demand for them. And there is not a demand because bullet makers have not made them.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Loke said:


> Not because they can't make them, but because there has not been a demand for them. And there is not a demand because bullet makers have not made them.


you. just. blew. my. mind. :mrgreen:

-DallanC


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

DallanC said:


> you. just. blew. my. mind. :mrgreen:
> 
> -DallanC


Isn't that like one of those Star Trek time travel paradoxes...

I like my 30-06; it's a good middle of the road caliber that you can hunt about anything with. You don't have to load it up hot but you can if you want to. I've been loading some 110gr stuff in it lately with coyotes in mind but haven't gone yet and shoot most of them at paper. They are soft shooters; but I also have some 180 acubond loaded up as hot as my book allows and they start to hurt after a few. I need to find a recoil pad for the stock.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mavis13 said:


> Isn't that like one of those Star Trek time travel paradoxes...


HAha that's fun because I watched DS9 Trials and Tribble-ations last night.

-DallanC


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

> I'd pick a 280 over the 270.


He said .270 WSM (Winchester Short Mag). Of course it performs like his 7mm Rem Mag but uses a short action and a case with no problematic belt. Very efficient. It can be downloaded to perform like a .270 Winchester if desired.

As the performance of the .280 is virtually identical to that of the .270 I see no virtue in picking the round that is not commonly chambered and lacks as much ammo choices. Interesting the Rem 7mm SAUM is basically a factory loaded performance clone of the .280 AI - but in a short action with no brass forming involved - if you want an unusual cartridge.

I would go with the .270 WSM in a stainless/synthetic rifle. There are so many good rifles anymore that picking is tough. A Weatherby Vanguard, Savage AccuTrigger, Rem 700, Tikka, or Browning A or X Bolt.


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## Black Plague (Jan 15, 2014)

deciding between a 270 and a 300 mag ... I would pick something in the middle ... Like the 7mm ....lol which you already have... I would buy another 7mm if you are just shooting factory ammo so you can just share with the wifey .... but you can change the model to whatever is most comfortable... I love my Rem 700 in 7mm it will kill anything...and has great ballistics ... personally for speed goats I would use my 25-06 ... and the 338 for elk ... but since you just want one gun to do it all... I say stick with what you know has worked already. (but everyone loves new kinds of toys...) :grin:


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I would go with the 270 WSM and then need to choose between the Browning xbolt or the savage. The Savage is more accurate, but the Browning is fancier, more of an heirloom looking walnut. I chose the Savage last year and love it, spend a little more to get the better models that include the accustock and accutrigger and you will be in love.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Fishrmn said:


> Anything that doesn't have a belted cartridge. They DON'T make the case any stronger. They do cause problems with headspacing and reloading.
> 
> ⫸<{{{{{⦇°>


No they don't. I don't believe that there is any advantage or disadvantage to the presence of a belt. It is simply a characteristic left over from the parent 300 H&H. The 7MM Rem and 300 Win are Great choices.....sheesh.------SS


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## massmanute (Apr 23, 2012)

I missed the fact that in the first post the poster specified 270 wsm rather than 270 Winchester. Sorry for that.

Given the choice between 270 WSM and 300 Winchester magnum the 300 might be a better choice for a lot of folks because it is more popular and therefore will likely have better ammo availability, especially in the long run. Calibers come and go, but a few are there for the long haul, and the 300 Winchster magnum seems to be one of those.


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## Sawbillslayer (Oct 24, 2013)

Thank you all for posting. I went with the Savage 116 with stainless on synthetic with in a 300 Win Mag. I took the Nikon scope of and went with the Vortex diamondback 4-12x40. I put the Nikon on my 243 (since it only had a 4x scope on it). I am excited and if the weather gives me a chance I will be at the range.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Sawbillslayer said:


> Thank you all for posting. I went with the Savage 116 with stainless on synthetic with in a 300 Win Mag. I took the Nikon scope of and went with the Vortex diamondback 4-12x40. I put the Nikon on my 243 (since it only had a 4x scope on it). I am excited and if the weather gives me a chance I will be at the range.


congrats! Good choice.----SS


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

> Given the choice between 270 WSM and 300 Winchester magnum the 300 might be a better choice for a lot of folks because it is more popular and therefore will likely have better ammo availability, especially in the long run. Calibers come and go, but a few are there for the long haul...


This no longer applies to the 270 WSM, like its 300 WSM parent, ammunition is available widely and almost everywhere. It is now 12 years old and chambered by most rifle manufacturers. In other words, it is a well-established and increasingly popular big game cartridge at this point. Therefore the above concerns are absolutely groundless.
True, some of the short mags have withered, but the big two WSMs have made the grade.



> No they don't. I don't believe that there is any advantage or disadvantage to the presence of a belt. It is simply a characteristic left over from the parent 300 H&H.


The belt was put on the 375 & 300 H&H so it could headspace in double rifles because it is a rimless case. Wildcats made from .300 H&H brass perforce had a belt. Then it just became a marketing tool. Shooters expected magnums to have a belted case.

There is no need for a belt in a bolt action. But because belted rounds headspace on the belt instead of the shoulder manufacturers can get sloppy with chamber dimensions - especially shoulder dimensions. A sloppy chamber with the shoulder a bit too far ahead of the belt is of no import to non-handloaders - because it really doesn't matter as far as firing new brass that won't be reloaded. 
When the round is fired, the brass stretches forward to form to the chamber, held by the belt at the rear. If the manufacturer failed to maintain proper chamber specs, after a couple of firings the case will begin to separate ahead of the belt. But because the belted rounds headspace on the belt, there is no incentive or reason to hold the belt-to-shoulder dimensions tight.

In addition, ammo makers sometimes have variations in the placement of the belt - or even its width - on the case by a bit. A combination of tolerances between the belt and chamber shoulder can lead to short brass life. Because belts on cases may vary, rifle manufacturers have another incentive to keep belt-to-shoulder dimensions on the loose side in order to not have too-tight chambering problems - thus contributing to the issue.

Ron Coburn, the former CEO of Savage even talked about this issue in a magazine article, citing sloppy belted mag chamber tolerances as common. The 7mm Rem Mag seems to be the worst offender in this sloppy chamber issue. One only has to compare reloading data from different manuals over the years to see that Max loads are all over the map because of major chamber variations.

If you are fortunate, you will get a belted mag rifle with a reasonably tight chamber and good belt-to-shoulder specs. Custom chambers are normally great. If you aren't, you end up with _Fishrmn_'s experience in loading for the 7mm Rem Mag -and despite attempting to adjust to headspace on the shoulder, the tolerances were too great and case separation occurred within 2 or 3 (if lucky) loadings because the stretch was excessive for the brass on the initial firing. His experience was bad, very real, and non-correctable. And not so unusual.

In addition the belt takes up useless space. The fat short mags have the same case OD as the OD of the belt on belted mags. This allows their cases (_based loosely on the old belt-less .404 Jeffery_) to hold more powder, making up for their short length. And as the .308 shows, short cases burn powder charges more efficiently and uniformly. And of course headspace "normally" on the shoulder like an '06 (forcing tighter chamber specs as a result). The deletion of the useless belt allows case capacity to virtually equal their belted counterparts despite a reduction in case length. And short cases can be used in short actions which are stiffer and lighter.

Lastly, belted case have a high rejection rate during manufacturing because of the belt forming process, this drives up the price over their standard counterparts. Unfortunately the deletion of the belt on the Short Mag counterparts saw no price reduction, probably because people always thought they should pay more for high-performance belted mag cases, and assume the same for the non-belted mag cases - creating greater profit margins for the makers.

Therefore belts on cases are only a positive if you are dropping them in a double rifle or something similar. They serve no other useful purpose and their presence can in some instances be a real negative.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Pete,
While I have heard this and read it several times, I have owned and shot 20+ belted magnums and never had an issue. I am pretty fussy about accuracy and precision and at times load on the top end. In probably well over 100,000 rounds fired, I have never experienced case separation ahead of the belt. My mag cases get old and the necks eventually crack just like every other cartridge. 

Also, any caliber and rifle can come with a bad chamber including excess headspace. That is not a trait held solely for those with the belt. 

I'm sure this will cause quite the stir, but in my group of shooting friends, I have seen many more problems with the WSM cases expanding and stretching than I have ever seen with the belted versions. Personally, I have never owned one because I have never seen the need. I have a 7MM Dakota and that's the closest thing to a short mag that I have ever had. 

Regardless what is written in articles, millions and millions of belted magnums are shot and reloaded without issue each year and I have never seen their popularity give way one bit to the short mags like was projected by all the same gun writers. Must be a reason for this? Heck if they were really better, I'd be shooting them too.------SS


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Sawbillslayer said:


> Thank you all for posting. I went with the Savage 116 with stainless on synthetic with in a 300 Win Mag. I took the Nikon scope of and went with the Vortex diamondback 4-12x40. I put the Nikon on my 243 (since it only had a 4x scope on it). I am excited and if the weather gives me a chance I will be at the range.


You are going to like that, excited to hear the range report. I have that scope on my AR and really like it.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Sawbillslayer said:


> Thank you all for posting. I went with the Savage 116 with stainless on synthetic with in a 300 Win Mag. I took the Nikon scope of and went with the Vortex diamondback 4-12x40. I put the Nikon on my 243 (since it only had a 4x scope on it). I am excited and if the weather gives me a chance I will be at the range.


I think you made a great choice. Post some results of how it shoots.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

I had a browning Stainless Stalker in 300wsm because I got caught up in the WSM hype. Good gun but in the end I sold it and picked up a 300wm. I found ammo to be less expensive & more readily available than that of the WSM. Ive reloaded the same 150pc of brass 5-6 times thus far and still maintain sub MOA accuracy with it. Ive heard things about the belted mags before but in my Prohunter, I have seen no issue what so ever.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

As I get older, I like shooting that doesn't beat heck out of me more and more. I've proven whatever we need to prove by shooting rifles that kick hard and make me feel cool and all that. I'm a fan of the 30-06, because being honest, its capability in hunting situations exceeds my ability to hit a target in hunting situations. And its the most popular big game cartridge for a bunch of reasons. But that is just me. My next rifle will probably be a 270 or maybe 308. Yea, I'm going down in the world I guess. There is enough of life out there willing to beat a guy up. Having a shooting sport rifle do it to you when you are trying to have some fun, well, just not my thing. 

I've always liked the Remington 700, in its many varieties. Tried. Proven. True. Solid. Consistent. But it seems like all the makers now have one. Many guys like the Savage for the triggers, but they are ugly. Just a fit and preference deal really. Find the one that fits. And any of the cartridges in your range will do what you want them to do. Have fun!


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

i'd stick with the 30 caliber because of its versatility and ease of availability. if you reload, that 300 win mag can be loaded down for light game or hot for big game. with a 270 you can kill elk with it but it leaves something on the table for the longer shots or imperfect placement. it is certainly more accurate than i am but if i chose to take a little longer shot and i get shoulder, i want to drop the animal and not wound it....which is where the 300 give you some leeway.

brand of rifle is more a preference these days. savage will give you great accuracy at a budget price with a crisp trigger. my remingtons cost more, always need trigger work but are great rifles after that. the choice is better made by which one fits you best.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Looks like I was late to the game. Good buy on the 300. Its a good round. Enjoy it!


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