# Did you lose your Bull?



## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

If you were hunting the NS, Blacks Fork, Fire break area, I have the coords for your 5x5 elk. The arrow was a Easton Axis 340 N-Fused Carbon, Orange and White fletch with a Tekken Broadhed. It's a shame you stopped your search just two hundred feet of your trophy which was in an open area very near to your markers. Had I come onto this bull just two days prior I'd have tagged it and saved the meat. I don't know the story but I find it odd that you weren't looking for it sat or sun as this bull was only 1/2 mile from the main road. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see an animal as majestic as a bull elk wasted for what ever reason. Shot placement was back just a bit but looked like it may have angled into one lung with poor penetration. I have pics but have chosen not to add them at this time. On this subject I think a training class for archers should be mandated by the DWR on shot responsibility and animal recovery, what are your thoughts? PM me if you feel you need to and we'll keep it between us. skeet


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

That is a shame; however I don't think a class on ethics will make archery hunters better shots. Also, even the most seasoned bow hunters know you don't always find an animal that has been hit. Some people you just can't teach common sense too, like the post about guys taking their quiver cap off because it dulls broadheads. Hell I saw a guy riding on the back of a 4 wheeler with an arrow knocked, probably his 8 or 9 year old son driving the thing. Again it is a shame when that happens.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

What a shame! I am sure that the shooter is sick about it unless of course, he is one of those who has already moved on to his next one. Hopefully, the shooter punched his tag that day!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I find there are a lot more "unethical" archery hunters in the field today than there were 10 years ago. I blame the dedicated hunter program. there are a lot of people using archery equipment just because they can. doesn't mean they should. traditional rifle hunters buy expensive bows and target practice to 100+ yards and they think they can bag game at that distance. sometimes it works for them, which makes things even worse. rifle hunting mentality and archery hunting just plain don't mix -- yet I see a lot of archery hunters in the field hunting as if they were on the rifle hunt.


maybe it's time to go back to "pick your weapon" hunting in Utah?


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## a_bow_nut (Feb 25, 2009)

A mandatory class on archery hunting will not teach anybody the ethics they need for hunting out in the woods.


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

On the lines of classes, I think there is alot of information out there that may help people learn to better track and locate downed animals (persistence would be high on the list), determine meat spoilage related to time/temps, etc. A "questionable" shot can and does happen, my concern is the follow-up. At one time there were 13 of us in close proximity (camp) and it wouldn't have taken much effort to ask for some help. Maybe it's just one of those guy things, kinda like asking for directions.


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

Skeet brings up a **** fine point...and I didn't see an argument. Why is it that when we take our hunter education class, we have to qualify with a RIFLE...but there isn't squat with a handgun (unless you take your conceal/carry class) and NOTHING with archery? I'm not saying an archery class would make people better shots. How many crap shots do we still see with a rifle? I just get tired of hearing about all of the wasted animals during the archery seasons.


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

I still get a kick out of people that think they're just going to grab hold of a harvested elk and drag or move them like you would a deer. One of the guys in our party put a cow on the ground and gutted her where she lay on a steep hill wedged between a couple of trees. When help arrived to do the quartering a couple of the younger guys thought they'd just grab hold and drag her a ways down the mountain.....too funny.


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## cklspencer (Jun 25, 2009)

> I just get tired of hearing about all of the wasted animals during the archery seasons.


Just as many animals are wasted during muzzy and rifle hunts or more so, it has nothing to do with weapon choices. The whole problem stems from peoples lack of knowledge on how to properly and affectively use the weapon they pick and the "I have to kill attitudes". You could require all the shooting test you want and it will not change anything. There will always be those people who feel they need to kill something so bad they don't care how they do it. I have seen some of the most lame things while archery hunting. But I have also seen the same things from muzzy and rifle hunters. Other then stupidity the other big things I see are the lack of practice with the weapon someone picks to use and being ill equipped to deal with the weapon they picked. Other big thing is laziness. You don't give up looking for an animal after 5 min. of looking for it. If you know you hit it you better look longer and if you aren't sure you better look longer than that. Example- I had a buddy shot a cow elk many years ago on an archery hunt. She only left blood for about 50 yards. We could not find another drop. We figured the shot might have been marginal so we back out until that evening. We started are way up to where we knew the elk bedded for the day thinking we might find her up there. Midway up we found her piled up under a big pine tree. She was about 100 yards from the last blood drop. It would have been easy to just give up but we knew we had to make the effort to find her and we did. Another example- This one did not end the same way. It was a rifle WY deer hunt. A friend of mine shot a deer in the middle of the afternoon. IT was not a great shot but it looked good. We gave the deer an hour and started tracking. We walked over two miles. Following tracks and every once in a while we would find a blood drop. It got dark and we had to head out. We looked the next day before we had to head home with no luck. My friend figured his tag was now filled. We made another trip up the next weekend and spent the day looking around trying to find any sign of a dead animal and the deer and never found it. He never did point his gun at another deer even though there was plenty of opportunity. What looked to be a good shot turned out to be a disaster. Anyone who hunts long enough will end up having to track and animal for one reason or another. The difference in a person's mind set and ability will determine how hard they are willing to find it and at what point it is okay to stop. I know many people read these threads so I would hope those people make more of an effort after reading them or put pressure on there friends after reading them to be a better hunter.


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## WeaselBrandGameCalls (Aug 16, 2010)

If people would keep looking after the blood trail stops they'd often find their animal. I've seen a few and heard of many more that go a long way after the blood stops. Most will be within a 100 yards of the last blood. I tracked and help track several animals that went more than 200 yards farther than the last blood found. If a tracking class would help, I'm all for it. I think more animals are lost due to poor tracking after the shot than to poor shooting.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Well think about it. You can practice shooting for hours every day. You can only practice blood trailing after you shoot something! Most people don't get much practice.  

It really is a learned art to follow a trail. Too bad there is not a way to really teach it.
I'm sure the person who made the shoot is still kicking himself in the rear.


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

You think thats bad? I hiked into one of those deep dark canyons over the weekend, see something up ahead that looked to be a moose. I get in closer, to about 25 yards, and the **** thing stands up and growls :shock: (big ol black bear) . Stands there for about 10 seconds (felt like a hour) and runs off through the tree's. Anyways, I came up on it eating a fresh (within the week) cow elk kill. Somebody had taken the time to completely clean the elk, and Bag the meat, but it didnt appear they took any of the meat with them. It was all laying on the ground , still in the game bags covered with maggots. Why would somebody go through all that trouble but not take out their meat with them? Anyways, Looked like the bear had been munching on the carcass for the last few days :roll:


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## tuffluckdriller (May 27, 2009)

Uh......because the bear ran them off! 

I shot a little 2 point buck a few years back. It was a 30 yd. shot. I think I hit it a little bit back. We tracked it for about 600 yds. to where it had bedded down. Lo and behold, along comes a coyote. That buck would have died right where it bedded, except the coyote chased him onto indian land. :roll: Great! 

We called the indian fish and game, waited hours for them to show up, and the buck was gone -- eaten. 

The bottom line to me is that you can only do all that's in your power. There will always be some circumstances you can't control. I hate losing shot animals. I hate it! It SUCKS! But sometimes there's just nothing more that can be done. 

I'm not excusing those who give up soon/easily. Obviously, a hunter needs to spend as much time as possible. I've become a much better tracker over time, and I hope to get better. But the fact is that the longer/more one hunts, the more likely it is that they'll lose an animal, too.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

Tracking classes might help, but it would help more if the proclamation were changed to state that dogs may be used in the recovery of an animal that's been shot. I could take my wirehaired pointing griffons to a blood trail and I guaran-freaking-tee you they would lead me to a dead animal quicker than I could ever find it. 
Right now the proclamation states, "Dogs may not be used to take, chase, harm or harass big game." 
I've seen a deer lost once, but I've been lucky enough to always recover my deer and elk. If I ever can't find one though, I'm about to become a recreational hiker with a pair of dogs running the area where I just happened to have hunted once upon a time.


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## STEVO (Sep 13, 2007)

tuffluckdriller said:


> Uh......because the bear ran them off!
> 
> .


I have heard of this in montana, Wyoming and Alaska with the grizzlies, but I would have never though that would be the case in Utah. I have seen several bears in my life while out hunting, and every one of them as soon as they seen me has taken off running the other direction as fast as they could. Have any of you guys seen any bears in Utah get agressive over food where it was a animal you had taken, or if you walked up on a kill? 2 years ago I was in the same area as this last weekend doing some early season scouting, and I walked up on a sow with 2 cubs. I was within about 40 yards before I seen them and about the same time the cubs saw me. Both cubs ran straight towards me to within about 5 yards. The mom gave them a couple whoofs, came towards me as I scared the cubs off. As soon as the cubs were out of danger, they all ran off faster than I could imagine. I really doubt the cubs had ever seen a person, so they were just curious, But the mom wanted nothing to do with me and as soon as she had her cubs she was out of there.


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## vectra0220 (Jul 3, 2010)

Just last weekend I found a nice little three point deer on the cache north side, not sure if it was an archery kill (no arrow), but it looked healthy and hadn't been there long. If anyone lost a deer up in that area, PM me I'll let you know where it is.


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## huntnbum (Nov 8, 2007)

So why couldn't you use a dog to find a wounded animal?
As long as you had in on a leash, it would be under your control and would not be a threat to a healthy animal.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> So why couldn't you use a dog to find a wounded animal?
> As long as you had in on a leash, it would be under your control and would not be a threat to a healthy animal.


Exactly. The proclamation is too cloudy on the issue. Define "take". Does taking the animal include finding it after it's been shot? What if the animal were found at the end of the trail still alive? Then did you use the dog to "chase" or "take" the animal? 
A blood tracking dog could be the best tool we could ever have to prevent big game from being shot and lost. As it is, I wouldn't dare use my dogs until all of my hunting equipment was stored at home. Then, like I said, I'd just be a recreational hiker running my dogs.


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## Duckholla (Sep 24, 2007)

I for one think we might be a little hard on the shooter here. For those of you who have shot an animal and lost it, understand that there are a lot of things that can go wrong. Expecially when archery hunting.

Case in point: We lost a cow on opening morning that had been shot fatally through the vitals. We followed the blood trail about 100 yards and it got dark on us so we backed out. When we returned the next morning to pick up where we had left off, we found the blood and went another 50 yards to the opening of a meadow where we lost it. Why did we lose it? Because sheep had moved into the area since the night before and ate EVERYTHING in sight. Including any sign of blood. We continued to look for hours after we lost the blood trail, and we couldn't find anything. The next day, the sheep hearder came and told us that the elk had died only 300 yards from where we stopped. There it died, and was eaten by the sheep dogs. Problem was, the sheep were around the carcuss and we couldn't see it.

Just a freak thing, not a situation that I would have ever imagined. So, who knows what happened with the shooter. There are a lot of variables here to just chalk this up to irresponsibility. I will agree however, that it's a shame that he lost his bull. I'm sure he/she isn't happy about it.

Just my .02 cents.


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## Fishracer (Mar 2, 2009)

All some people want to do is judge. Without knowing any of the details people will automatically assume it was lazy or unethical hunting. I for one understand i do not know anything about this hunter or how this elk was shot. I hate the fact that this animal was not found but i also now it is part of hunting. One small consolation about the animals that are not found is that they feed the predators. The predators in turn will be inclined to hunt less so it may all work out. Who knows. Just a thought, but in no way makes you feel better for not finding an animal. Just my .02


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

Fishracer said:


> All some people want to do is judge. Without knowing any of the details people will automatically assume it was lazy or unethical hunting. I for one understand i do not know anything about this hunter or how this elk was shot. I hate the fact that this animal was not found but i also now it is part of hunting. Just my .02


+1

hate to admit it, but i have lost an animal. i didn't give up easily either! Its part of hunting. unfortunate but that is reality!


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## DR_DEATH (Sep 10, 2007)

I don't know the hunter or even the area you area talking about, but I do know that the weather was terrible last weekend with high winds and rain. When it rains you almost always loose any sign ( blood or tracks) to follow. Just a thought of why the hunter possibly didn't find this animal.

Good Discussion especially for those who can see the other side of the coin. Instead of the everything bad that happens is a rotten SOB slob hunter.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

skeet4l said:


> If you were hunting the NS, Blacks Fork, Fire break area, I have the coords for your 5x5 elk. The arrow was a Easton Axis 340 N-Fused Carbon, Orange and White fletch with a Tekken Broadhed. It's a shame you stopped your search just two hundred feet of your trophy which was in an open area very near to your markers. Had I come onto this bull just two days prior I'd have tagged it and saved the meat. I don't know the story but I find it odd that you weren't looking for it sat or sun as this bull was only 1/2 mile from the main road. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see an animal as majestic as a bull elk wasted for what ever reason. Shot placement was back just a bit but looked like it may have angled into one lung with poor penetration. I have pics but have chosen not to add them at this time. On this subject I think a training class for archers should be mandated by the DWR on shot responsibility and animal recovery, what are your thoughts? PM me if you feel you need to and we'll keep it between us. skeet


Just out of curiosity, did you notify the DWR? It is also possible that this animal was killed illegally and the hunter simply left the animal to rot...


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> skeet4l said:
> 
> 
> > If you were hunting the NS, Blacks Fork, Fire break area, I have the coords for your 5x5 elk. The arrow was a Easton Axis 340 N-Fused Carbon, Orange and White fletch with a Tekken Broadhed. It's a shame you stopped your search just two hundred feet of your trophy which was in an open area very near to your markers. Had I come onto this bull just two days prior I'd have tagged it and saved the meat. I don't know the story but I find it odd that you weren't looking for it sat or sun as this bull was only 1/2 mile from the main road. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see an animal as majestic as a bull elk wasted for what ever reason. Shot placement was back just a bit but looked like it may have angled into one lung with poor penetration. I have pics but have chosen not to add them at this time. On this subject I think a training class for archers should be mandated by the DWR on shot responsibility and animal recovery, what are your thoughts? PM me if you feel you need to and we'll keep it between us. skeet
> ...


He probley not. he would rather come on here and say this hunter was a bad hunter. With out knowing what happen. it suck the bull was lost but like said before it hunting and **** happens.


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

My intent was to elevate the need for persistence when tracking. There were a couple of guys that passed by two days prior in a hurry, in hind sight my thought is that they were looking for their elk. That was on wed, I came across the elk fri and was in the same area sat and sun and didn't see them again. Poaching is most likely out of the question as the arrow was still sticking out the side. As I've stated, nobody is perfect and a questionable shot can and does happen. Even a well placed shot can result in the loss of an animal. The person that lost the elk is probably hating life and sick to his/her stomach, I just wished they had pushed a little further because they were very close. I read a thread a couple weeks ago that talked about placing a shot in line with the front leg and up 1/3rd of body mass which is where the pumphouse is located. This is the type of information I eluded to that can be taught in a class.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

skeet4l said:


> Poaching is most likely out of the question as the arrow was still sticking out the side.


You are probably right; however, I would still call the DWR and report what you found. I know the DWR is working on a case on the Pauns right now where they have an arrow as evidence. Some tards will simple shoot to kill and never even look to see if they killed anything...they are simple shooting for the thrill and don't care about the recovery. Also, the hunter could have been a deer hunter who decided to shoot an elk without a tag...then, after shooting the bull and not finding it decided to get the heck out of dodge. Again, without knowing the responsible party, you really don't know what the circumstances are. Personally, I would have notified the DWR and shown them what i had found!


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

Like Wyoming said this could be that the hunter might have had a spike or cow tag and shot not knowing what it was he was shooting at and when it took off saw it was an illegal animal and fled the scene. I think it happened on Gentry mountain the other day. I was driving up and about half way up the dugway there was a spike deer just off the road. It actually looked alive at first but as I got close it didn't move. I was about to stop and take a look but just above it was a DWR officer talking with a guy in a wheel chair. I stopped and asked about the deer and the officer informed me that they were notified of it and was investigating it. It was in a CMWU and no one had picked it up. I continued on and when I was coming back down the officer had another vehicle stopped and the deer looked to have been gutted and removed.
So I don't know what but my guess is that it was shot near the road for the fun of it and the shooter just took off.


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## bloodtrail (Sep 20, 2007)

I think the DWR is part of the problem by not letting hunters use every means possible to recover a wounded animal! There is absolutely no reason that dogs should not be allowed to track a wounded animal. Especially if the searcher does not have a weapon. I don't even have dogs, but I would find someone who does if I were in this circumstance if it were allowed. 

The DWR assumes every one of us are poachers until proven otherwise! The same is true with road kills. Why does our State insist that road kill big game animals be wasted? Why do they assume that we are all trying to hit them intentionally with our $30k + vehicles for meat?


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## skeet4l (Sep 11, 2007)

FYI
http://www.ehow.com/how_2065163_avoid-m ... ssing.html
http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/ ... 929n06.htm
http://www.wisegeek.com/how-long-will-m ... erator.htm
http://www.hunts.net/meatcare.html


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## Kdub (Sep 6, 2010)

Losing an animal you hit does suck, but as others have stated nature doesn't waste anything. I've lost a few animals and it sucks. What do I do? Punch my tag for that year. If I hit an animal and don't recover it I consider it good as dead and I'm done for the year. Sucks, but your tag is only for one animal. Not all die, as deer i've shot I have found arrow scars inside the hide when skinning, but I think If you hit an animal and you don't recover it you're done for the year.


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