# Grouse hunting close to home



## crod

Looking for a little advise/ insight...
As I am getting ready for my first backcountry elk hunt I have been doing a lot of hiking around the Wasatch. I am wondering if there a areas around Guardsman's, Big Cottonwood, Millcreek Canyon, Lamb's Canyon, East Canyon that I could bring the shotgun with me & maybe get into some grouse while I get in shape for the upcoming elk hunt???


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## paddler

You can hunt any of those areas with a shotgun. Can't take a dog into the Cottonwood canyons, Parleys or Lambs, though.


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## crod

I understand I am allowed to have a shotgun in those areas, very aware of dog laws in the watershed... just wondering where I might stir up some birds while I'm out there?


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## paddler

Absolutely. I've killed grouse on the south side of Mill Creek canyon right at the mouth, and can see the spot from my front porch. I've run into them all along the Wasatch, in Bear Trap Fork in Big Cottonwood, Mill Creek, City Creek, Mountain Dell, etc. In fact, all up and down the entire range.


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## crod

Paddler, thank you for letting me know that they are indeed out there... Given elevation is it mostly blue grouse out there? Or are ruffed grouse out there as well?


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## paddler

Early in the year, I've jumped dusky grouse at 6300' on the ridge between Immigration and Mountain Dell (archery deer), and at the same elevation on the face of Grandeur Peak. More typically I jump the ruffies in the thick stuff and the blues on more open slopes. I think you should take a shotgun with you every time out, and take a dog everywhere it's legal. You'll see more when you're actually hunting elk. Of course. I'd be surprised if you didn't see grouse at 40 38' 45" x 111 36' 04". That's on the ridge between Bear Trap Fork and Willow Heights, ~9700'. If dogs were legal there, I'd be hunting it.


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## Damiani

I dunno that I would trust a feller with a signature of Obama 2012 

From what I understand in SL County there is no discharge of a firearm unless on private ground... It seem's to be a gray area and from what I've heard can boil right on down to the officer investigating whether your cited or not. I think you tempt a lot of attention to yourself anyways in SL County due to the high volume of non-consumptive recreation user's. Me personally I would tip toe lightly if you take on this venture


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## Theekillerbee

Even if SL County did have a no shooting rule, it is trumped by state law. It is not legally enforceable unless specifically authorized by the state. You can read 53-5a-102 of the Utah State code for clarification on that one. The only rules that apply are those made by the state, for instance, being 600 feet away from houses, animals....etc. So all those silly little city ordinances that ban hunting are null and void if you can meet the state rules.


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## Damiani

Not talking about hunting, more shooting. Have you ever dealt with a Unified Authority Law Dog looking for a charge? I have and eventually they will find one... Point being, I don't think it's worth it


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## NoShot

KillerBee,

The Utah premption law affects other agencies making laws regarding possession of a firearm, Not the discharge of a gun. ANY town/city/incorporation etc can make laws and enforce laws that pertain the discharge of a weapon.


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## paddler

Hunting with a shotgun in SL county is legal. The usual 600' rule applies. No worries.


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## crod

Thank you to all concerned for me regarding local gun & dog laws... I understand them clearly following conversations with Salt Lake Unified Police. If you feel like contributing by recommending any near by locations I might get into some birds (grouse) while hiking in the mountains as I work on physical conditioning prior to the elk hunt it is much appreciated. And just so you know I will be out there without a dog... My lab is on his last legs and just can't do it anymore.


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## reb8600

Theekillerbee said:


> Even if SL County did have a no shooting rule, it is trumped by state law. It is not legally enforceable unless specifically authorized by the state. You can read 53-5a-102 of the Utah State code for clarification on that one. The only rules that apply are those made by the state, for instance, being 600 feet away from houses, animals....etc. So all those silly little city ordinances that ban hunting are null and void if you can meet the state rules.


You are wrong. A county or city can pass laws making it stricter on discharging a firearm.


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## reb8600

You are going to find birds in pretty much all areas of the mountains here in Utah. If you are looking for someone to give you specific locations, good luck with that one.


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## crod

Not looking for honey holes, just general areas... I'm out there hiking all over the place anyway, just don't want to tote the shotgun around areas I don't need to be...


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## sk1

I've seen grouse in about all of those areas, not in huge numbers but mind you it's just me hiking around archery hunting without a dog. I'd say around 35 to 40% of my trips I have grouse by me I could shoot with a bow under 20 yards if I was willing to spare an arrow.

That doesn't really help you much but my point is I think about any hike in those areas is worth taking because they are around often enough you will eventually bump into them.


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## brookieguy1

Theekillerbee said:


> Even if SL County did have a no shooting rule, it is trumped by state law. It is not legally enforceable unless specifically authorized by the state. You can read 53-5a-102 of the Utah State code for clarification on that one. The only rules that apply are those made by the state, for instance, being 600 feet away from houses, animals....etc. So all those silly little city ordinances that ban hunting are null and void if you can meet the state rules.


So I can hunt pheasants in South Jordan now? Cool.


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## brookieguy1

I've seen quite a few Ruffs up towards the summit of East Canyon and Little Dell, right close to the pavement. Sorry if I gave away a Honeyhole. Sheesh, they're just chikins'.


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## Theekillerbee

NoShot, I have to respectfully disagree, unless otherwise authorized, this code states

" (4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property."


Rule 4 is plain as day.

Rule 5 says "use." Using a firearm means pulling the trigger.


Now if you find a more current rule delegating authority by the legislature to any entity it would be a valid point as noted in Rule 2.


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## Dunkem

Im confused, if the state law overrides the county,why arnt there any dove hunters hunting in SL county:noidea:


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## paddler

The ground you're talking about is National Forest. Local municipalities don't have jurisdiction. Just take your shotgun on all your walks. It's a lot more fun with a dog, though, and I wouldn't hunt grouse without one.


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## crod

paddler213 said:


> It's a lot more fun with a dog, though, and I wouldn't hunt grouse without one.


I agree grouse hunting is more fun & more productive with a dog, however my dog can't handle it any longer so I am forced to go at it by myself


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## ted

paddler213 said:


> It's a lot more fun with a dog, though, and I wouldn't hunt grouse without one.





crod said:


> I agree grouse hunting is more fun & more productive with a dog


I hear/read similar comments a lot and it's making me curious. I find grouse hunting plenty of fun without a dog. What (and how much) am I missing out on as a dogless hunter?


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## paddler

ted said:


> I hear/read similar comments a lot and it's making me curious. I find grouse hunting plenty of fun without a dog. What (and how much) am I missing out on as a dogless hunter?


There are many who feel they do as well or better without a dog. It really probably boils down to personal preference. I like having a dog along because watching it work is amazing. Watching them work birds, point and retrieve is what it's all about for me. If dog work doesn't matter to you, you're not missing a thing.


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## Damiani

If you like to kill birds without a dog I can assure you I have no interest in giving you advice or help of any kind. Actually about the only thing that comes to mind is un-ethical hunting. A subject I will not understand or support


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## burge

Damiani said:


> If you like to kill birds without a dog I can assure you I have no interest in giving you advice or help of any kind. Actually about the only thing that comes to mind is un-ethical hunting. A subject I will not understand or support


Pretty sure I would kill more with a dog. I guess that makes me more ethical for giving those poor birds a better chance by not having a dog. 
Also, some people may not have the space or funds to keep a dog. Should they just stay home and wish they had a dog so they wouldn't feel " un-ethical"?


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## crod

Damiani, please enlighten me... How is bird hunting without a dog an un-ethical hunting practice?


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## Critter

crod said:


> Damiani, please enlighten me... How is bird hunting without a dog an un-ethical hunting practice?


I will be willing to say that he will say something like not being able to find all of the downed birds.

I have to admit that after hunting grouse for over 40 years without a dog that I have only lost one, and that one was lost because I thought that he was down and went for the second bird and lost sight of the first one.


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## Kwalk3

Judging from other recent posts, damiani thinks that anyone who helps someone find chukar, hunts birds without a dog, or shoots a grouse with anything but a shotgun while they are flying, should be shot themselves. (Exaggeration, yes, but read the last few posts.) This kind of attitude puts more people off than actually changes or helps them. If you believe things should only be done one way, good for you. Don't belittle others who legally and ethically do it a different way. I have shot grouse with and without a dog, and prefer to hunt with one. I have never lost one without a dog either though. Aaand, I shoot them with my bow, sitting on the ground from time to time.........and guess what? I like it, and they taste just as good.


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## brookieguy1

Damiani said:


> If you like to kill birds without a dog I can assure you I have no interest in giving you advice or help of any kind. Actually about the only thing that comes to mind is un-ethical hunting. A subject I will not understand or support


Wow and WOW! This profound statement over CHIKINS?:grin: You bird guys are so strange.


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## Damiani

Let me make this clear, if I had my way you would have to prove and register your dog that it does indeed know how to locate game & retrieve it. No ground pound or limb shot's, the bird must be taken on the wing with a knowledgeable dog to retrieve the game. It's called "sport," not belittling at all. Give your quarry a sporting chance, in the end you'll enjoy the meal that much more. Otherwise the grocery store is on the corner.


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## Damiani

> This profound statement over CHIKINS?


Profound? Hardly
Chickins to you, a way of life to me
Hence;
Maybe you would be open to the allowing of open netting on your trout streams? ;-)


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## Dunkem

Seems like any more if a guy asks for help on here he gets 1 or 2 people that want to belittle him.How were you guys taught?Did you just go out by yourself and learn every little thing there was to know?I was brought up feeling like if I could help someone to do it and feel good about it.I dont know much about grouse hunting,and dam sure not going to ask on this forum,I dont have a dog so I guess I will be another unethical hunter out there.Lighten up you diehards-O,-


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## Damiani

> .I dont know much about grouse hunting,and dam sure not going to ask on this forum


Good for you, the journey of learning on your own is half the fun


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## crod

******


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## ted

Damiani said:


> Give your quarry a sporting chance, in the end you'll enjoy the meal that much more.


Don't worry, amigo, I give those birds one hell of a sporting chance while hunting without a dog. Spent four hours in the rain last weekend humping my shotgun up, over, and around a mountain only to flush a three-bird covey and miss every shot.

If you're more concerned about unrecovered birds, then I think Critter makes an excellent point. Just because you're dogless doesn't mean you're careless.


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## Springville Shooter

Damiani said:


> Let me make this clear, if I had my way you would have to prove and register your dog that it does indeed know how to locate game & retrieve it. No ground pound or limb shot's, the bird must be taken on the wing with a knowledgeable dog to retrieve the game. It's called "sport," not belittling at all. Give your quarry a sporting chance, in the end you'll enjoy the meal that much more. Otherwise the grocery store is on the corner.


All I can say is that I'm glad you don't get to make the rules. Having your opinion is great......I just happen to disagree with you. Maybe you should buy your own property, then you can make and enforce your laughable list of phony rules and ethics. Chances are you would have the whole place to your self considering your apparant personality. 35 posts and already banging heads....sheesh. I hope those seeking help can look past certain elements and find some friendly info among the knowlege pool available here...ie Paddler.------SS


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## Damiani

Read your signature Springville


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## Damiani

crod said:


> Damaini, you are an *********


No doubt a parasitical response


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## Damiani

ted said:


> Don't worry, amigo, I give those birds one hell of a sporting chance while hunting without a dog. Spent four hours in the rain last weekend humping my shotgun up, over, and around a mountain only to flush a three-bird covey and miss every shot.
> 
> If you're more concerned about unrecovered birds, then I think Critter makes an excellent point. Just because you're dogless doesn't mean you're careless.


Careless?
I believe Critter stated he blows their heads off. Ground pound style or off the limb, I'm sure. I would assume in his mind it takes skill to pull this off. Not careless more unsportsmanlike. You fellers act as though it's a unlimited resource... I personally am ashamed of the fact that you might call yourself a Utah bird hunter


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## Mavis13

o-||

-O\\__-


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## Kwalk3

Damiani said:


> Careless?
> I believe Critter stated he blows their heads off. Ground pound style or off the limb, I'm sure. I would assume in his mind it takes skill to pull this off. Not careless more unsportsmanlike. You fellers act as though it's a unlimited resource... I personally am ashamed of the fact that you might call yourself a Utah bird hunter


Good News,

We already have a DWR that has a handle on how grouse populations are doing. Thanks though. They have determined bag limits and methods of take. Covered there too. Blue and Ruffed grouse aren't in danger as you seem to be alluding to. A dead bird is a dead bird, whether you shot it with your 10k over under(on the wing of course), or whether I shot it out of a tree with my bow and arrow, it has the same net effect on the population.:shock: Heck, you probably kill more grouse in a year than I do in 5. Maybe we should talk about it being a limited resource. I'm sorry you are ashamed to call the rest of us hunters. That's more of a you problem than an us problem though.O|*


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## Dunkem

Damiani said:


> If you like to kill birds without a dog I can assure you I have no interest in giving you advice or help of any kind. Actually about the only thing that comes to mind is un-ethical hunting. A subject I will not understand or support


:kev:


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## Damiani

> Good News,
> 
> We already have a DWR that has a handle on how grouse populations are doing. Thanks though. They have determined bag limits and methods of take. Covered there too. Blue and Ruffed grouse aren't in danger as you seem to be alluding to. A dead bird is a dead bird, whether you shot it with your 10k over under(on the wing of course), or whether I shot it out of a tree with my bow and arrow, it has the same net effect on the population. Heck, you probably kill more grouse in a year than I do in 5. Maybe we should talk about it being a limited resource. I'm sorry you are ashamed to call the rest of us hunters. That's more of a you problem than an us problem though.


Yes, with the current state of the declining mule deer population the DWR has done an excellent job in your sheeple eye's haven't they?
Try to use both hands next time


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## Critter

Just so that you know, I shoot grouse where I find them. It doesn't matter if they are on the ground or in the air. 

I actually think that it is unsporting to use a dog. The dog can find them as long as they can smell them. Then the dog tells you where they are hiding. I probably walk past more in a couple of years than you manage to shoot, now if I went to the expense of having a dog I wouldn't have to hike as much. O*--


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## martymcfly73

I agree with critter. Any idiot can use a dog. There's no sport in it. The dog does all the work. I won't shoot grouse when they fly. I ground pound them every chance I get. I'll even shoot them out of a tree.


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## Damiani

martymcfly73 said:


> I agree with critter. Any idiot can use a dog. There's no sport in it. The dog does all the work. I won't shoot grouse when they fly. I ground pound them every chance I get. I'll even shoot them out of a tree.


Surely a Chesterfield raising


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## Damiani

Critter said:


> Just so that you know, I shoot grouse where I find them. It doesn't matter if they are on the ground or in the air.
> 
> I actually think that it is unsporting to use a dog. The dog can find them as long as they can smell them. Then the dog tells you where they are hiding. I probably walk past more in a couple of years than you manage to shoot, now if I went to the expense of having a dog I wouldn't have to hike as much. O*--


**** your making this easy. I doubt you would go to the expense of a good bird dog, or the responsibility it would take to raise and properly train. This emphasizes my point. Pull the Utard ******* equation, what else ya got?


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## crod

Damiani, since you entered this thread there has been nothing but drama in response to your opinions and statements. Please leave the thread, and hopefully it will return to the friendly & productive conversation it was before you made the decision to open your mouth.


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## Kwalk3

Damiani said:


> Yes, with the current state of the declining mule deer population the DWR has done an excellent job in your sheeple eye's haven't they?
> Try to use both hands next time


I thought we were talking about Dusky(Blue) and Ruffed Grouse. My apologies. -O,-


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## Damiani

crod said:


> Damiani, since you entered this thread there has been nothing but drama in response to your opinions and statements. Please leave the thread, and hopefully it will return to the friendly & productive conversation it was before you made the decision to open your mouth.


It's called a keyboard bud. 
I suspect you were expecting a welfare check? Good show but I'll leave the drama to the expert's, thanks... 
BTW, I seen a exit from the freeway today shy of a vagrant begging for, well you get the idea... If you'd like to know thee where's PM me, I'd be happy to share that with you


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## Dunkem

:ban::nod::amen:


Damiani said:


> It's called a keyboard bud.
> I suspect you were expecting a welfare check? Good show but I'll leave the drama to the expert's, thanks...
> BTW, I seen a exit from the freeway today shy of a vagrant begging for, well you get the idea... If you'd like to know thee where's PM me, I'd be happy to share that with you


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## Springville Shooter

Damiani said:


> Read your signature Springville


Yes, accurate rifles are interesting, and sometimes I offend an idiot now and then......what's your point?

To the OP.....grouse are in all areas of the Wasatch and while I am not specifically familiar with the area you are asking about, I'm sure that with some persistence you will find a few for the pot. When you do, don't feel bad if you have to shoot them from a tree or on the ground. When I hunted with a dog, she often retreived them before the shot if you know what I mean. With or without a dog, grouse hunting doesn't require any special skills. Just like the British fox hunter, some folks enjoy a lot of unnecessary fanfare. I wonder if Damien wears starched and ironed LL Bean apparel while on the hunt?:grin: Find the birds and fill the bag my friend. Oh, and good luck!----SS


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## richardjb

*Elitests Jerks!*

Why do you guys bother with them? They remind me of the South Park episode where the uppity folks enjoyed sniffing each others farts, like wine. I like pissing off idiots!


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## brookieguy1

Eat more chikin!:mrgreen:


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3

Pretty funny thread going here.  Personally never used a dog, seems like it would make it a whole lot easier. But using a shotgun would probably make it easier too. I only ever use my bow. I bet Damiani thinks that's "unethical" as well.:shock:


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## jayo

Quilldooshbag needs his mullet combed.


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## hoghunter011583

Damiani said:


> Good for you, the journey of learning on your own is half the fun


Learning on your own? I call that re-inventing the wheel!!
You never asked anyone anything? You just went all on your own and learned everything in your life by trial and error? I say that is pretty stupid when you could just learn from others and then advance and learn even more, I thought that is what school is all about lol....

Brother you need to understand that it aint your way or the highway. If you like to hunt over a dog, go for it! I like to hunt without a dog, I like the peace and quite. I like to hunt Grouse with a bow also. So, how about this, since I like to hunt them with a bow I think you should have to hunt them with a bow!! Pretty stupid world we'd be living in if we all had to do things the same way.

I hunt Grouse for meat period and why go to the grocery store and buy chemical infected meat when God put it in the woods and gave me the ability to harvest it. 
Lighten up man, we all do it a little different!!


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## hoghunter011583

PM sent to the original poster.


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## Damiani

My he!! there seems to be a epidemic of villages here in Utah who are out searching for, well you know... Chemical infected meat -BaHa!-
Relax fellers I'm mostly yanking your chain
I'll be see'in you boys out at the next rabbit club fest :O--O:


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

There is not much I enjoy more than watching a dog work birds. My dogs live for the moment. I see it in the way they spin in circles the moment I step outside with a gun or in my hunting clothes. I guess that's not everybody's thing, and to each their own. Taking my dogs hunting sure adds to their life and our relationship, though. I quit hunting when I didn't have a dog. It just was not fun for me without the dog. But hunting with a dog is not about me. It's an "us" thing. 

There are grouse in all of our local mountains. I don't hunt the Salt Lake area and can't offer any specifics there. I can say that if you find an area where quakies meet the pines you're on the right track. Find berries and water in those areas and you're in great grouse country. Hunt early morning and early evening to catch the birds on the ground.


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## guner

Dunkem said:


> Seems like any more if a guy asks for help on here he gets 1 or 2 people that want to belittle him.How were you guys taught?Did you just go out by yourself and learn every little thing there was to know?I was brought up feeling like if I could help someone to do it and feel good about it.I dont know much about grouse hunting,and dam sure not going to ask on this forum,I dont have a dog so I guess I will be another unethical hunter out there.Lighten up you diehards-O,-


Thing about this comment is, it hasn't really changed at all except we are a little older, these same discussions were here when the DWR had the site!!!, there was then ( and I bet always will be) elitest/purists ( ie. Quiill... Good guy, but a bit of a purest) and that's fine..... All I care about now days is keeping my 10 yr old son excited and on birds, I have asked on ocassion, and while many are tight lipped (which is fine) I have met many more that are willing to offer suggestions and advice! That said... Having people give likely spots is a challenge. Myself I am more then happy to help where and when I can, although I will NEVER give a spot learned of from anyone else!


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## paddler

John Alden Knight had a section in his book, _"Ruffed Grouse"_, about hunting without a dog. It was published in 1947, and I'm confident the discussion predates that book. No need to argue, just go hunting.


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## Packfish

There is not much I enjoy more than watching a dog work birds. My dogs live for the moment. I see it in the way they spin in circles the moment I step outside with a gun or in my hunting clothes. I guess that's not everybody's thing, and to each their own. Taking my dogs hunting sure adds to their life and our relationship, though. I quit hunting when I didn't have a dog. It just was not fun for me without the dog. But hunting with a dog is not about me. It's an "us" thing. 

No theres the best thing I have read in awhile- There is no way I would continue to hunt with out a dog. The shooting of the bird is just a small fraction of my enjoyment.
And on the 'D's point- no matter what one does there should be some sort of ethics involved.


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## Damiani

Nice posts gent's.
I probably shouldn't be involved in a public forum as I feel there is disrespect towards the land and the resources which reside there with most. A purist? Maybe... Actually, my concern's lye with freely giving out information to public land with the intent to kill the resources that live there in an open forum. Seem's irresponsible to me. To be realistic none of us own public land, were just just borrowing the land & it's resources for a minimal time. Therefore, it's not ours to freely disperse. Especially in an open forum. A open forum is a great way of inviting misconduct of killing an area out or possibly poaching. However, a person that earn's it, goes through a ritual of hard work and time spent in the pursuit of that gives them a sense of respect for their quarry that will naturally take them to the next level if serious...

Let them earn it


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## sittingbull

New alias this time around, Damiani, but photos are still spectacular! I hope you keep it up.


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## brookieguy1

Now that you and Pack give a more non-aggressive and less arrogant approach, I respectfully agree with your opinion. Still, if I do not have a dog, and decide to go hunting, I probably would. 
But I don't have a dog, and probably won't.
???
I think I'll just go fishin' So much easier.
Beautiful pic, D.


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## Kwalk3

Absolutely beautiful picture. Thanks for the perspective behind the previous posts. I still disagree with the idea that if someone does it differently than you, it is somehow unethical. However, I agree with you that there is a certain respect for our quarry and nature in general that is often missing. I am guilty of this at times, and definitely need to always keep that in perspective.

Some of my best memories of grouse in particular have nothing to do with hunting them, but rather watching them as they strut and drum in the spring. Incredible to watch. I do respect them, and have worn the soles off my boots to reach the spots I often see them. If I happen across one that I can cleanly take with a bow(in season),I respect it just as much as if it was with a shotshell full of bbs. Just my .02. 

Would love to see more pics.


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## Lonetree

As much as I don't like to agree with you Damiani, I have to concur, at least on your last point.


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## guner

Amazing Picture !


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## Packfish

Hey Brook- one of my boys is a great fishing dog- not quite as good as the late great one but none the less a non spooking buddy that has shared the tent on many Boulder trips


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## brookieguy1

Packfish said:


> Hey Brook- one of my boys is a great fishing dog- not quite as good as the late great one but none the less a non spooking buddy that has shared the tent on many Boulder trips


Miss ya Chris. Said happy B-day to ya on that other place. Boulder, and other places, are doing well!


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## Packfish

Ya know- if I knew my password


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