# Wolf in Utah



## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Wonder if he brought any friends with him?


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local...confirm-the-presence-of-a-wolf-in-rich-county


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

There is a documented pack of wolves in north west Colorado, Utah is just across the border.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

I won't shed any tears of Utah delists them. Just sayin'.
Hell, i'll go out and buy a 6.5 creedmoor to celebrate if that day ever comes.


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## one4fishing (Jul 2, 2015)

Well, that’s it. I’m sure the Wolves on Trail Cam thread is going to blow up now.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

RandomElk16 said:


> https://www.fox13now.com/news/local...confirm-the-presence-of-a-wolf-in-rich-county


We're doing our best to locate the wolf said Leann Hunting.

An appropriate name;-)


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Utah Department of Agriculture and Food said:


> The Utah Department of Agriculture and Food said it *has confirmed a wolf is in Rich County*, _another sign the species has likely returned to the state_.


I love it. It is both confirmed and likely at the same time!!

I say it's just a big coyote. One of them big mothers with big teeth!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Leann Hunting said:


> we're doing our best to locate the animal as soon as possible,"


 We all are!!!


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## buck (May 27, 2020)

Critter said:


> There is a documented pack of wolves in north west Colorado, Utah is just across the border.


Something tells me the wolves don't care about state borders...


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

You mean BGF didn't keep them out of Utah like they were paid to do?!?!?!?!


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Ohhhhh boy...lemme tell ya what I think about this....




......it's just fine, nbd.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

one4fishing said:


> Well, that's it. I'm sure the Wolves on Trail Cam thread is going to blow up now.


I hope so, that's my favorite thread.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I know five years ago a pack of Hybrid woofs were in the Diamond Fork area. One was shot by a cattleman and the DNA proved it a Hybrid. I heard that someone was breeding them and decided to let them loose to see what would happen. Almost like dumping a bunch of Purana in the river.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

taxidermist said:


> I know five years ago a pack of Hybrid woofs were in the Diamond Fork area. One was shot by a cattleman and the DNA proved it a Hybrid. I heard that someone was breeding them and decided to let them loose to see what would happen. Almost like dumping a bunch of Purana in the river.


Reminds of anaconda's in the southern swamps. Invasive species that is taking over. Some people are really freaking stupid.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

And already killing livestock:

https://www.ksl.com/article/4676026...in-rich-county-utah-agriculture-officials-say

-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Reading the article, I wonder if its a juvenile/subordinate male that was run out of a pack to fend for itself and made its way to Rich County? I'd think that being a pack animal, if one is seen, there would be another.


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## elkunited (Aug 16, 2019)

taxidermist said:


> Reading the article, I wonder if its a juvenile/subordinate male that was run out of a pack to fend for itself and made its way to Rich County? I'd think that being a pack animal, if one is seen, there would be another.


That's a nice thought there. I would hope it true. I know wolves are a controversial topic, but I don't have any experience around them and don't want to as far as I know either. No established packs please.


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## buck (May 27, 2020)

taxidermist said:


> I know five years ago a pack of Hybrid woofs were in the Diamond Fork area. One was shot by a cattleman and the DNA proved it a Hybrid. I heard that someone was breeding them and decided to let them loose to see what would happen. Almost like dumping a bunch of Purana in the river.


Hybrid as in bred with Coyotes or something?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

buck said:


> Hybrid as in bred with Coyotes or something?


Dogs. Usually Husky's or similar.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Honestly, I'm going to need further verification knowing some of the parties involved in reaching the conclusion that was a wolf kill.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Any videos?
.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

Yeah, it sounds like there hasn’t been a single actual sighting, just bite marks and tracks. Could be a chupacabra for all we know!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

middlefork said:


> Dogs. Usually Husky's or similar.


About 20 years ago, while looking for a stud to bread my Alaskan Malamute, I found a breader in New Harmony that was breading dog/wolf hybrids (husky and malamute). According to them they made better pets than domesticated dogs. I hope they didn't release those hybrids.

I don't have a dog (no pun intended) in this fight but I do think that going back and trying to change the past is wrong no matter what the issue or topic. Wolves were gone for the better part of a century and the eco system adapted to it. Well enough should have been left alone. You can't fix a mistake by making another mistake. Let us learn from history.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

MadHunter said:


> I don't have a dog (no pun intended) in this fight but I do think that going back and trying to change the past is wrong no matter what the issue or topic.* Wolves were gone for the better part of a century and the eco system adapted to it. Well enough should have been left alone*. You can't fix a mistake by making another mistake. Let us learn from history.


That's what I think as well. Apart from that, the landscape is highly fragmented now. In the wolfs day, maybe not as much. This fragmentation can restrict movement of wildlife in many areas, hemming them in to being easy kills for wolves. As the pack(s) grow, the long term result with be decimation.

One big freaking problem with wolves is they are romanticized to a very high degree. So much so, it overrides logic and reason with many people.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Lone_Hunter said:


> MadHunter said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have a dog (no pun intended) in this fight but I do think that going back and trying to change the past is wrong no matter what the issue or topic.* Wolves were gone for the better part of a century and the eco system adapted to it. Well enough should have been left alone*. You can't fix a mistake by making another mistake. Let us learn from history.
> ...


True. I'd like for it to be possible to have SOME of them around, but it seems they're nearly impossible to control. No one really complains about there being too many grizzlies, except for some of the population in WY. Considering how many grizzlies there were 200 years ago and how widespread their range was, I wonder what makes it so much easier for wolves to become rampant in comparison to grizzlies. Is it the protections? The litter sizes? Their elusiveness?


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

I am *guessing *it's because they are a pack animal with large litter sizes. Bears by comparison are mostly solitary with smaller litters.

edit:

Wolves are also pretty smart. Unless I am mistaken, they are the only predator that had been successfully domesticated. Some theorize there was a divergence in wolfs in early history. Some wolves remained wolves, others carved a nitch as a "camp wolf" and would follow human hunter/gather camps scavenging scraps, until some interaction was made and domestication occurred; which is where the dog's come from.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Go to Montana. You’ll hear complaints about too many grizzlies for sure!

Wolves are not impossible to manage in reality. The politics get in the way and make it impossible to do anything with them. 

If they were stripped of ESA protections (should not even be a debate at current levels) and allowed to be properly managed, I’d be okay with wolves in Utah. We all know that is never happening, so keep em out. Build a wall!!! Or something...


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

The USFWS is proposing that all gray wolves be delisted. They already have been in the northern Rocky Mountains. You can hunt wolves pretty liberally in all the states they have been reintroduced into. Wolves are actually, really, not that big of a deal.

There's 900 wolves in Montana. There are 4000 black bear in Utah. 56,000 coyotes have been harvested over 4 years in Utah. How many black bear and coyotes do you see every year? It doesn't seem like a few hundred wolves would be that big of a deal.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

rtockstein said:


> True. I'd like for it to be possible to have SOME of them around, but it seems they're nearly impossible to control.





Vanilla said:


> Wolves are not impossible to manage in reality. The politics get in the way and make it impossible to do anything with them.
> 
> If they were stripped of ESA protections (should not even be a debate at current levels) and allowed to be properly managed, I'd be okay with wolves in Utah. We all know that is never happening, so keep em out. Build a wall!!! Or something...


Vanilla is right. They are not impossible to control -- heck, Utah has no wolves because we DID control them, and eradicate them! And for good reason! That's what all the proponents of having them back just don't understand. Wolves are blood thirsty animals. They are killing machines. They kill for many more reasons than just for food survival. They kill for territory. They kill to learn. They kill for fun. They are not the cute animals you see on the Blue Diamond dog food commercials.

I wouldn't mind a handful in Utah - but hunting wolves should be a critical component of any plan to have them in Utah. I'd jump right in line to do my part to hunt them. I'd love to have a wolf blanket.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Jedidiah said:


> There are 4000 black bear in Utah. 56,000 coyotes have been harvested over 4 years in Utah. How many black bear and coyotes do you see every year? It doesn't seem like a few hundred wolves would be that big of a deal.


hmmm....

I've seen far more bears in Utah over the last few years then I ever recall seeing further back in the past. I have concerns, as do many others, about how many bears we have. We need to get their numbers down. They are a problem.

Harvested coyote numbers are a statistician's dream -- manipulated to come to a pre-determined conclusion! With bounties in place, and no history of counts in the past - of course those numbers appear alarming!

Introduce wolves, and you'll see those coyote numbers plummet! But that isn't a trade-off I'd like to see...


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

PBH said:


> hmmm....
> 
> Introduce wolves, and you'll see those coyote numbers plummet! But that isn't a trade-off I'd like to see...


Only in the areas where both live.

When I was up in British Colombia on a bear hunt we didn't see any wolves but we did see one coyote. My guide pointed to it and after the coyote had ran off I asked him if he wanted me to shoot it. He said that they very seldom see them and that he liked to see them. I then asked him what I should do if I should happen to see a wolf. His reply was that I would know after he had emptied his 44 magnum at it.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

The optics for wolf are about the same as for wild horses. Both are a boutique species for the nature lovers who can't understand the need to manage numbers.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> Only in the areas where both live.


What does that matter?

right now in utah, coyote counts are a big thing. We harvest them and we get a bounty for each one. So we see high numbers.

My point is that if you stop counting coyotes because now you are focused on wolves, the numbers will go down. The population might stay the same, but now we're counting wolves, and place a bounty on wolves, and watch the wolves.....the coyotes will get ignored. And killed by wolves too - but nobody is counting.

Stats. They only tell the story that you want them to tell.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Lone_Hunter said:


> One big freaking problem with wolves is they are romanticized to a very high degree. So much so, it overrides logic and reason with many people.


The inverse of this is equally true: One big freaking problem with wolves is they are demonized to a very high degree. So much so, it overrides logic and reason with many people.



rtockstein said:


> True. I'd like for it to be possible to have SOME of them around, but it seems they're nearly impossible to control. No one really complains about there being too many grizzlies, except for some of the population in WY. Considering how many grizzlies there were 200 years ago and how widespread their range was, I wonder what makes it so much easier for wolves to become rampant in comparison to grizzlies. Is it the protections? The litter sizes? Their elusiveness?


Very possible to control their numbers with trapping and hunting seasons. But it is the political hurdles that impede proper management. By demonizing wolves and calling for eradication, hunters are providing the romanticized fanatics with precisely the ammunition they need to keep winning in court to prevent delisting.

Also, a breeding pair of wolves will have a litter of pups every spring. The average litter size is 4-6 pups, with litters over 10 occurring from time to time. Wolves can breed as early as 9 months but typically a female won't have a litter until she is 2 or 3.

Grizzly cubs stay with their moms at least 2 years, often 3 and sometimes 4. Usually a sow will have 2 cubs, occasionally 3, and rarely 4. Grizzly females don't reach sexual maturity until somewhere between ages 5-8. While the sow is still caring for her cubs, she won't breed--which is why the #1 cause of mortality for grizzlies is mature boar grizzlies. There is some really cool data out of Kodiak supporting how trophy hunting of brown bears leads to increases in brown bear populations, as harvest is heavily skewed towards mature boars leading to a higher survival rate for cubs and juveniles.

So over a 3 year period starting with one breeding pair of each species, you could reasonably expect to end up with ~27 wolves (original pair + 3 litters of 5 pups + 2 female pups from year 1 having litters in year 3) but only ~4 grizzles (original breeding pair + 2 cubs with mom until year 3--sow might breed in year 3 but won't give birth until hibernating in year 4).



PBH said:


> hmmm....
> 
> I've seen far more bears in Utah over the last few years then I ever recall seeing further back in the past.


Utah's estimated black bear population of ~4k shows a lot of growth. Less than 10 years ago the estimated population was around 3k, and 20 years ago it was estimated at ~1300. So it wouldn't surprise me to hear that you are seeing more than you ever have in the past.


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## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

Interesting, this study from 1986 says 50% of black bear cub mortality was from cannibalism by other black bears. Could be the killing of boars in Utah is actually increasing the numbers of black bears.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3872610?origin=crossref&seq=1

Right now the cost to hunt wolves in some states is ridiculously low, people would pay a good deal more and still be happy to do it, I know I would (if that sounds crazy go look at what it actually costs, seriously.) Maybe that money could go toward management, just like it does for other species.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

PBH said:


> I'd love to have a wolf blanket.


I'd try and have a coat made. I mean, if one is up in the mountains all the time pretending to be a mountain man; may as well look like one too. :mrgreen:. If I had a wolf fur coat, i'd grow out my beard all the way out again.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

PBH said:


> They are not the cute animals you see on the Blue Diamond dog food commercials.


Blue Diamond? Wolves wouldn't be a management problem if they ate almonds. 

Maybe wolves eating Blue Buffalo brand wouldn't be so bad. Grain free dog foods have recently been implicated in certain breeds of causing a certain type of heart disease............ -Ov-


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Blue buffalo. My favorite vet, HATES blue buffalo.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

ah nuts.




(see what I did there?)


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

PBH said:


> Critter said:
> 
> 
> > Only in the areas where both live.
> ...


If there are wolves up north how is that going to affect the coyotes down south where there are no wolves? It will affect the coyotes that are up north if the wolves move in up north.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

It won't affect the coyotes down south. It might affect the coyote counts because people will be focusing on the wolfies up north and ignore the coyotes down south. There won't be as many bounties (coyote kills) because attention will be focused on those other canines in the north.

When you go look for something, you usually find it. If you don't look for it, then you won't find it. If you aren't counting coyotes, your numbers won't increase.


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## ns450f (Aug 28, 2018)

If you had to choose.... Wolves in Utah and no feral horses, or feral horses and no wolves? If the wolves would control the feral horse populations I would almost be pro wolf. I just spent the weekend on the needles range doing some exploring and saw well over 100 feral horses in 2 days. Ten years of time spent out there and every year the horses are worse. It even seems like they have become less afraid of people and more aggressive. We literally had a stallion come down the road into our camp this weekend. He stood there less than 50 yards from our tents and stomped around on the road very aggressively. I actually felt threatened and really thought I was going to have to shoot him. Wolves would certainly kill a lot of elk and deer but I wonder how much the feral horses out compete and harm the elk and deer heards.....


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

In case you missed it:

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/no-sign-of-wolf-in-northern-utah-so-traps-are-pulled

Which makes me wonder if it was really even there. There are those livestock owners that want every dead animal found on the range classified as a predator kill so they can collect reimbursement dollars from the state. The recently retired government hunter in the area was a man of integrity and would only classify dead livestock as a predator kill if that's what the evidence showed, which infuriated some of the livestock owners. His replacement? Well, one would hope he has the same level of integrity, but&#8230;&#8230;.:-?


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