# So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quitting?



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

After talking with A lot of general deer hunters this year, I'm amazed
at the high percentage the say they are finished with general deer in Utah,,

Then on the Internet ,,lots of talk, several threads on here guys saying 
"they've had it",,,,,,,,,A bunch of the MM crowd just want to see Utah's
general deer closed down for a few years the hunt was so poor....

I've personally have been on the SE region this week and thought it
was OK. But I have also been in other areas ,central and southern, the deer 
are pretty much gone......

My question is , In the midst of this years deer proposals, do we do nothing?

Of course something will happen, but suppose they go with option 3 and very
little changes?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Or they go 29 units? which is worse.
Will the percentage of applicants really drop?
Do you guys think hunters really will stop applying for general deer tags?


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## SkullDesigns (Jul 13, 2010)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I have said I was done, but then my wife says I cant until I have hunted with all of my kids. This was my daughters first year deer hunting and I have a 3 month old for the youngest so I guess I am hunting here for a little while. I mainly hunt the central and have always been able to find some nice deer, the only thing I have seen this year are little twos and spikes, put many miles on our boots and dont road hunt, my daughter is exhausted from hiking the hills and mountains with me. I guess I will have to check out more areas during the summer and try to find the few that are still around or convince my wife to let me go to Colorado for mulies.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I don't know, but there may be some that just move on to other things, and some to other states. On a personal note, I think it's time for Utah hunters to double thier efforts and let their voices be heard, not quit. The deer herd deserves at least that small effort on our part...


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I don't believe the hunting is that bad. I seen a lot of bucks this summer while out scouting. I never went out once without seeing bucks. I also went to many different places. I think the weather has a lot more to do with the success this year. I hope none of you decide to just throw in the towel and give up because things will get better.



> But I have also been in other areas ,central and southern, the deer
> are pretty much gone......


Pure BS because of the amount of bucks that I saw. The bucks are there but you just need to find them. They didn't just disappear.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

why would you even post this question??? :?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I know of a couple of hunters that are finished. They don't believe that the DOW is doing what is right with the deer herd. But then again they are the type of hunter that rides around on their wheeler or truck shoots the first buck that they see and then complane that there are no big bucks left in the state. For myself I have a life time license and will continue to hunt. This year I had the chance to shoot a number of smaller bucks including a wierd 3 pt but held out for the big boy that never showed up in range. 
The DOW needs to do something and what ever they do is not going to be popular amoung the hunters that are left but just about anything is better than nothing.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I will not be stopping hunting in Utah.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I choose to hunt out of state this year, but...............................I don't buy that "I quit because there are no deer" argument, get out and hunt, there are some bucks somewhere in your area, you just have to do the work to locate one. Personally I am not sad to see those undedicated hunters quit.


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## muleydeermaniac (Jan 17, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

My dad and uncles, a total of seven hunters are finished here in Utah. They will continue hunting in wyoming, but we all are still hunters, we don't own four wheelers. My boots love the dirt so thats where they will stay. I saw a lot of younger bucks this year and filled the freezer with a two point this year because my eight year old son was up there with me. I should draw the book cliffs next year so hopefully thats where we will be. But the general season in Utah is a thing of the past. No more big family outings. And I have a bad feeling it will be 29 different units next year.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I have hunted my last general season archery hunt for the foreseeable future. And I am not really that miffed about it. I feel like I lost the archery hunt 15yrs ago. Monroe's prospect of going LE is much better than most other units. A sad cometary that a hunter with the passion I have for a single unit. Would rather not hunt and take pictures of deer then have the DWR ignore them and not see hardly any deer.

My hopes are that once Monroe is completely LE with all Big Game species. It will open the door for true comprehensive management. Also an opportunity for those that are real close to the Mtn. To have a better chance to push proper management. It's completely feasible to attain a 1000 buck harvest and a bunch of doe off of Monroe yr after yr. If managed to do this. This would allow more than 3000 hunters per yr. Yes an LE unit but everyone that traditionally hunts the unit should get their tag.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

What if all 97,000 deer hunters were supermen like some of you? That magically get 5 miles from a road never see another person and see game galore. Is that the answer, hunt harder? Do you want 250 trucks parked at your trail head and 500 hunters stomping around your secret canyon? Here is a thought for those content super hunters that can manage to shoot a good buck even though the rest of us slobs complain. If the hunting was good for us slobs then just think how good the hunting would be way out in the back country. Superhunters would shoot B&C bucks every yr.


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## Dannyboy (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I don't know why people are giving up. There are tons of good deer up in the mountains, but what fun would it be if they came out to the road and jumped in your truck? My favorite part of the hunt is waking up super early and going out into the middle of nowhere and searching for that elusive buck that i can put on my wall and brag about. If i don't see one and don't need the meat i just pass on the smaller ones and wait until next year to try again. There is a reason they call it HUNTING go out a actually hunt for something instead of going out for a couple of days and complaining about being outdoors and working for it.Just my thoughts on the subject. :O•-:


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

In the early 90s, I had great hunts in Utah - hunting with my uncle, as his boys never took to it. I enjoyed those hunts. I did the hiking, he did the driving and waiting. We always got a deer or two, and some decent bucks at that. Then cancer caught up with him and took him to the happy hunting grounds about 10 years ago. In the late 90s, I moved to Montana for a few years and got ruined on Utah hunting. I tried hunting where my uncle and I would hunt once 4-5 years ago. I watched some smaller bucks for a couple of hours and never fired a shot. Just not the same. That was the only Utah deer tag I've bought since about '95. Now I have over 45,000 acres of private land in Montana where I have permission to hunt. It is crawling with more deer than really is fair. I can draw a Montana non-resident tag as often as a Utah general tag, and not share the mountain with anyone! I don't see me hunting deer in Utah any time in the near future.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



Iron Bear said:


> Yes an LE unit but everyone that traditionally hunts the unit should get their tag.


what do you mean by "everyone that _traditionally_ hunts the unit should get their tag"?


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## MarkM (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I have some friends/family that have talked about quiting. It is not because of lack of deer it is because of how hard it is to get a tag and go hunting. With the changes coming next year some of them are saying it won't be worth it. They say why even bother if they can only hunt once every 3,5,10 years or what ever it ends up being.

Mark


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

What a bunch of soft under bellies!!!

Do you not like hunting enough to weather some of the heard cycles that have always existed?

Is one dry hot Fall that had a lot of game laying low during the day going to really make you quit?

Are you really thinking of pandering to the MM crowed and supporting the reduction of general season tags because you didn't find your buck this year?

I'm glad my dad, brothers and uncles who I hunt with, and sometimes go years without taking an animal, don't through there arms up in the air. The outing is more that just tagging out to them and I hope there are more hunters like them out there that would continue to support this great tradition we all got to enjoy growing up. I'm getting my first boy in February and I hope there is still enough general season hunter support to preserve the same opportunity for him.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



stablebuck said:


> Iron Bear said:
> 
> 
> > Yes an LE unit but everyone that traditionally hunts the unit should get their tag.
> ...


Over the last 20 yrs the DWR has reported between 2000 and 2600 hunters afield per yr on Monroe. Making me think traditonally about 2500 hunters hunt Monroe per yr. If the entire state was managed as such everyone would get there tag every yr and probably result in some unsold tags every yr. The potential is definatly there. But we will need to quit sharing so much with cougars and coyotes. And some day wolf.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



Iron Bear said:


> What if all 97,000 deer hunters were supermen like some of you? That magically get 5 miles from a road never see another person and see game galore. Is that the answer, hunt harder? Do you want 250 trucks parked at your trail head and 500 hunters stomping around your secret canyon? Here is a thought for those content super hunters that can manage to shoot a good buck even though the rest of us slobs complain. If the hunting was good for us slobs then just think how good the hunting would be way out in the back country. Superhunters would shoot B&C bucks every yr.


I don't think most guys are saying the deer herd is in good condition, but I think the guys that are saying the hunting is poor don't know what poor is.
I think the guys in the west have no idea what other states deer hunting is like. Go to some of the not so great deer hunting states and you will have a new outlook on Utah's deer hunting.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

Your right about not knowing how bad bad is.

I have thought we hit bottom on the deer herd and was going to see a rebound anytime now. It goes both ways though. Many dont know what good is.

Cyclical my ars! lol


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I wont quit, no matter what........I wish I could say the same for all my family though, My dad, Uncles, Cousins have all gave up in Utah, and every year it gets worse, more and more people I know are "Done", it sucks but I just make the best of it.

I think the poor deer numbers/low buck-doe ratios etc, have ruined more family traditions and family outings than cutting tags ever will up here, When I was a kid, I could drive up almost every canyon and knew where all the local familys were hunting/camping..........you dont see that anymore up here.

At the end of the day people will complain no matter what is done



> guys that are saying the hunting is poor don't know what poor is.


Not always man, A lot of these guys I know have seen more hunting than the average joe ever will, they KNOW poor hunting and dont need a biologist or the state of utah to tell them how bad things are. Blame it on the hot weather, that they are "road hunting" whatever you want, It aint good ladies and gentleman, its beyond poor.......that still dosent mean a good buck cant be killed though.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



> Cyclical my ars! lol


Do a little research on the history of Utah deer numbers. Utah lawmakers closed hunting between the years 1908 and 1913 because we almost completely lost our deer herd. by 1951 hunters could purchase multiple doe and buck permits in a single season because of the over population. In 1975 they went back to "buck only" because of declining numbers and in 1985 a record number of 85,000 bucks were taken with over 225,000 hunters in the field.

Habitat, livestock grazing, weather and predators will always cause small and large cycles with our deer herds.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

Iron Bear, what are you going to do if they make Monroe LE?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I'm don't worry about the small percentage of people that stomp off in a huff. There will always be a few ticked at any changes or at no change at all. I worry about the legions of people that will just eventually lose interest because they can't draw a tag and never really come back.


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

at least for me its not the lack of animals were seeing as we can always find bucks but its the continual messing with the hunts by the wildlife board, they ignore what there biologest tell them there field officers report and they
sure as heck wont listen to the average sportperson who spends more time in the field in a week than they do in
a year. every year the twiddle with the hunts without a thought to the overall subject which is the deer and its
welfare, they wont give last years implementations a chanch to work with out scraping it and coming up with another hairbrained idea nah that would be to practical what are they doing to improve winter range your sure 
as heck not going to get the 18 to100 bucks if you cannot sustaine them it goes on and on and while i will not
quit hunting other animals elk and the like the deer hunt is so soured that after over 45 years of hunting the mulies here in utah i pretty much done i ll go to wyoming were we know some landowners and there wildlife
department seems to have at least some idea of how to manage there wildlife i ll still go out with the kids if and when they draw a tag here but yep im done.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



bullsnot said:


> I'm don't worry about the small percentage of people that stomp off in a huff. There will always be a few ticked at any changes or at no change at all. I worry about the legions of people that will just eventually lose interest because they can't draw a tag and never really come back.


+10,000

Don't add LE units
Don't cut GS tags (unless buck/doe ratio falls below 10/100)
Make hunters choose between a LE point or a GS tag each year (this will take pressure off of both).


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I'm done.

Whining and crying, then not doing anything about it is my passive aggressive way to be right and to spite the DWR, while maintaining my helpless, lazy perspective.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



> I think the guys in the west have no idea what other states deer hunting is like. Go to some of the not so great deer hunting states and you will have a new outlook on Utah's deer hunting.


That said, go to a solid deer hunting state and you will also have a new outlook on Utah's deer hunting. After hunting deer in Montana, its like I found religion or something. It sets a whole perspective of how BAD Utah deer hunting is.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



Treehugnhuntr said:


> I'm done.
> 
> Whining and crying, then not doing anything about it is my passive aggressive way to be right and to spite the DWR, while maintaining my helpless, lazy perspective.


You always seemed like the passive aggressive type. :lol:


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



10000ft. said:


> > Cyclical my ars! lol
> 
> 
> Do a little research on the history of Utah deer numbers. Utah lawmakers closed hunting between the years 1908 and 1913 because we almost completely lost our deer herd. by 1951 hunters could purchase multiple doe and buck permits in a single season because of the over population. In 1975 they went back to "buck only" because of declining numbers and in 1985 a record number of 85,000 bucks were taken with over 225,000 hunters in the field.
> ...


Yes I am quite well versed on the subject. You forgot predator poisoning and a kill on sight policy for 50 yrs. Ending in the 70s and then a LE cougar hunt that started in the 90s.

I will ask you to do the same and research Utah's deer herd pre 1908. Deer are more abundant today than in the 1800s. And to the contrary nature devises methods to achieve balance. Left alone predator and prey populations would find a balance absent of boom and bust cycles. And sadly that is what the DWR is shooting for.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

Those well versed in Utah deer herds, will also talk about the rise, climax, and decline of the sagebrush steppe systems that occurred as a result of extreme over grazing in the late 19th and early 20 century. It created a perfect storm where most of the potential deer habitats in the state were all at the same age class in the sage stepe communities. As such, the deer populations followed. As the sage rose, so did the deer herds. As the single age class communities climaxed in fawning cover, maximum nutrition, and winter condition, the deer herds climaxed. But sage brush as it gets older, gets more woody, and loses its nutritional value, and fails to provide the food source necessary for very successful deer herds. These sage steppe communities climaxed from the late 50s - early 70s. And with fire suppression models of the past 70 years, the sage brush hasn't been allowed to develop various age classes that can offer all the habitat components necessary for strong deer herds.

Much is being done in many areas to go back and do "mechanical treatments" that can provide multi-age class sage. And in those areas, herds are doing better - and elk are doing exceptionally better. But it will take time. Habitats will NEVER be what they were in the 50s-70s, because it is impossible in today's social and political climates to re-create the perfect storm that led to those habitat conditions.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



MarkM said:


> I have some friends/family that have talked about quitting. It is not because of lack of deer it is because of how hard it is to get a tag and go hunting. With the changes coming next year some of them are saying it won't be worth it. They say why even bother if they can only hunt once every 3,5,10 years or what ever it ends up being.
> 
> Mark


Best post in this thread, by far!


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> > guys that are saying the hunting is poor don't know what poor is.
> 
> 
> Not always man, A lot of these guys I know have seen more hunting than the average joe ever will, they KNOW poor hunting and dont need a biologist or the state of utah to tell them how bad things are. Blame it on the hot weather, that they are "road hunting" whatever you want, It aint good ladies and gentleman, its beyond poor.......that still dosent mean a good buck cant be killed though.


I don't doubt these guys know deer hunting and have more experience than I'll ever have. I do think that we can either blame everybody or we can work to fix the problem. What is the problem? Does anyone really know? 
I just think to get on here and say it all sucks and Utah sucks and the sky is falling is crazy. You guys don't know what you have out here. If you compare it to other states out west maybe Utah doesn't even come close. If you compare it with most states across the country I'd bet you'd rather be hunting in Utah.

Same thing with the Duck hunting, all the guys talk about how good it is in some other state and how Utah just doesn't have good duck hunting!! I'm from Louisiana and I'll take hunting Ducks here anyday!!

When a guy who has never hunted Mule Deer and doesn't know what he is doing can go out and hunt 4 days and shoot a deer and see atleast 50 and you say that area sucked,,,,, does the word spoiled come to mind!!


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I'm done with the general deer hunt. For a host of reasons. Rather than focus on deer i get a bigger thrill out of archery elk. So that is my preference. Try for limited entry hunts, archery elk and the best hunt of them all... Waterfowl. You can have the deer. I should/will draw a books archery tag next year. So bring on the LE hunt!


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



> If you compare it with most states across the country I'd bet you'd rather be hunting in Utah.


Maybe if my choices were California and Hawaii and maybe a couple others................

Its not about comparing Utah to other states across the country. Its about comparing Utah to Idaho, Utah to Wyoming, Utah to Montana, Utah to Nevada, Colorado and the other surrounding states that have Mule Deer. You can't compare apples to oranges (i.e. Utah to Louisiana). You cannot compare Utah (Mule Deer Hunting) to other states across the country that do not have hardly anything in common, for instance you cant compare whitetail hunting in Iowa to Mule deer hunting in Utah. And if the truth was known............Almost nationwide they have more hunting opportunities than Utah.



> When a guy who has never hunted Mule Deer and doesn't know what he is doing can go out and hunt 4 days and shoot a deer and see atleast 50 and you say that area sucked,,,,, does the word spoiled come to mind!!


Put that same guy in Wyoming, Colorado, Montana etc, General Season, hunting four days, same amount of energy/effort and that guy can kill a mature buck, see double the does and would say to himself "forget Utah"..........Spoiled..........I don't think so.

In fact this morning while hunting with buddies in Idaho, I witnessed a guy from South Dakota, never hunted mulies in all his life, (first year), three days into the hunt, pass a 170" Mule Deer because he had seen literally hundreds of deer and didn't want his hunt to end, not that this really matters, but I have seen and witnessed what surrounds us............This year I hunted the high country of WY, never hunted it before, 100% DIY, and my first day I saw twenty mature four points, and fifty plus does, from one lookout, smiling from ear to ear, just to walk down the trail to talk to a local that is just beside himself that he is not seeing near the deer this area use to have.

Unbelievable..............to me it was, but who am I to judge what this area had or could have,. I'm just a 24 year old snot-nosed kid that thinks I know everything  ..........but if there is one thing I have learned when an old-timer that has been around for 40+ years, that truly knows the country, spends every day in it, and has hunted his whole life in an area tells me that it sucks.......I listen.

I have friends that I argue with constantly about the shape of the deer herd, most work in an office, live in suburbia, and spend a week or two in the hills, hunted for ten or so years and act like they really know whats going on and think things are great.........everyone is entitled to an opinion.........I just don't put much weight on anything they say........but like I said, I'm just a snot-nosed kid that lives in the hills chasing deer and other critters......take my opinion for what its worth.

At the end of the day everyone thats on here enjoys hunting, we just see it differently and I'm cool with that, one thing that I think we can all agree on is we could use some more deer, how we get there is the problem and a big one at that.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

Hell if a bunch of can't hack its are gonna quit good riddance. More tags for the rest of us! Unfortunately it's all just a bunch of whining and empty threats. The majority of these people aren't gonna give up hunting.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



colorcountrygunner said:


> Hell if a bunch of can't hack its are gonna quit good riddance. More tags for the rest of us! Unfortunately it's all just a bunch of whining and empty threats. The majority of these people aren't gonna give up hunting.


+100


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



colorcountrygunner said:


> Hell if a bunch of can't hack its are gonna quit good riddance. More tags for the rest of us! Unfortunately it's all just a bunch of whining and empty threats. The majority of these people aren't gonna give up hunting.


Exactly! Pro this is the best post now!


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## greatwhitehunter (Nov 16, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*

I don't understand why the dwr does not make all the areas in the state 3 point or better. It allows the same amount of hunters we had this year the opportunity to go out and "hunt" even though there will be a lesser success rate in the field. The herds would eventually be healthier and larger animals would be harvested???


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



mikevanwilder said:


> colorcountrygunner said:
> 
> 
> > Hell if a bunch of can't hack its are gonna quit good riddance. More tags for the rest of us! Unfortunately it's all just a bunch of whining and empty threats. The majority of these people aren't gonna give up hunting.
> ...


I disagree, strongly! Having the attitude of "good riddance" is part of the problem. We NEED more hunters, not fewer hunters. the future of hunting is dependent on recruiting new hunters and retaining existing ones. Thinking that getting rid of hunters will "leave more tags for the rest of us" is near sighted at best. How many tags will be available when there is NO HUNTING? Very fewer people hunt in Europe, does that mean there are "more tags for those who do"? Hell no!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



greatwhitehunter said:


> I don't understand why the dwr does not make all the areas in the state 3 point or better. It allows the same amount of hunters we had this year the opportunity to go out and "hunt" even though there will be a lesser success rate in the field. The herds would eventually be healthier and larger animals would be harvested???


Bingo,,,,,,not to mention we could have a state wide 11 day rifle deer hunt.
I think this would be the best option,,,,,,,wish it was on the proposal list!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

How would the herd get 'healthier' by going to three point or better? :?


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## hook (Aug 24, 2009)

Bucks at least make it through a season, which equals more does being bred. I am no biologist but I saw the results from the book cliffs. I know poaching was a problem so maybe they should do it along the wasatch front where hunters are more visible?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

hook said:


> Bucks at least make it through a season, which equals more does being bred. I am no biologist but I saw the results from the book cliffs. I know poaching was a problem so maybe they should do it along the wasatch front where hunters are more visible?


The Book Cliffs, after more than a decade of being Limited Entry, is STILL under population objective. So, tell me again, how will antler restrictions make the herd 'healthier'?


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

proutdoors said:


> The Book Cliffs, after more than a decade of being Limited Entry, is STILL under population objective. So, tell me again, how will antler restrictions make the herd 'healthier'?


very good point pro.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

I see more deer on hwy 40 in Colorado in one day than I see all year on the Fishlake. I heard many people last weekend saying this was their last year hunting, and gave up elk hunting years ago go because they did not care to waste their time chasing spikes. My daughter who is fifteen and never has missed a hunt with me since she was three, after three days of sliding in the mud said she does not want to hunt deer any longer, our GPS showed us walking 17 miles over three days in snow and slop, we saw two small bucks is all. We went duck hunting instead.

She wants to quit because so many people she knows have already quit, she misses the big family outing, she has seen for her self hunting deteriorate. She is far from lazy, she wears my english pointer out chukar hunting. She knows that drawing a utah LE elk tag is more of a dream than a reality. She has seen many people stop applying for permits, but they still hunt, she understands it, their frustration. SHe sees her friends going to other states and hunting, her cousins live in wyoming, says thats where we are hunting next year.

Somone said great less hunters means more tags?? Some say let people quit, the slackers, road hunters ect... without them most of yoju could not afford to hunt. the price of the permits would be extremely high. Every year many of you talk about the cost of hunting, buying permits for you and your family.Some of you take a lunch to work to afford the permits. Tell where will you get the money to buy permits when all the slackers have given up?? When the kids we need to stay in the game pick up their balls and bats and go play for someone else??

I dont know how to fix the deer problem, SFW and the wildlife board have done a lot of damage and its not going to be an easy fix. You better than everybody trophy hunters better take a good hard look at who your friends are in the hunting community or only the very wealthy will be hunting, think it cant happen?? Look at Europe.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

*Re: So, how many Gen. deer hunters are quiting?*



proutdoors said:


> mikevanwilder said:
> 
> 
> > colorcountrygunner said:
> ...


 I guess I should of been more specific, This is what I was refering to.


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## svmoose (Feb 28, 2008)

proutdoors said:


> hook said:
> 
> 
> > Bucks at least make it through a season, which equals more does being bred. I am no biologist but I saw the results from the book cliffs. I know poaching was a problem so maybe they should do it along the wasatch front where hunters are more visible?
> ...


I'm not saying that antler restrictions work, but has there been antler restrictions on the Books since they became LE over a decade ago?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

svmoose said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > hook said:
> ...


Not directly, but in reality YES. Who is going to shoot a yearling buck with a LE deer permit after applying for several years?


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## hook (Aug 24, 2009)

Obviously antler restrictions have worked for building the elk herds! And as far as population objectives for the books, who cares if when you go out you have the chance of seeing over 25 bucks a day including some decent sized ones? Which is what I saw when it was a 3 pt or better unit.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Obviously antler restrictions have worked for building the elk herds!


Antler restrictions on elk has only worked because we have also limited the number of mature elk tags.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The bookcliffs were " antler Resrticted" in the 80s,,,,,It was dam good, general season hunt.

When they stopped antler restrics on the Books ,Henry's, Oak city, and a couple more,
The deer were shot out in two years, over all deer numbers fell, It seamed like the
does even disappeared........They ended up closing these units for a number of years.
During 1996-97-98,and 99 I spent a TON of time during the winters in the bookcliffs and the Henry's, These units were closed to all deer hunting during this time, Its sure
was fun to watch the deer herds grow and come back on those two units..........

But in all honesty, the quality now being limited entry is no different than when they were antler restricted units,,,,,,,,,The big difference is only a few get to hunt them now,
when before they were general season units,,,,,,,,,and ANYONE could hunt them.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

hook said:


> Obviously antler restrictions have worked for building the elk herds! And as far as population objectives for the books, who cares if when you go out you have the chance of seeing over 25 bucks a day including some decent sized ones? Which is what I saw when it was a 3 pt or better unit.


A perfect example of comparing apples to oranges. The elk were suffering in many parts of Utah in part because of a lack of ANY mature bull elk in the herd to properly breed all the cows. That is NOT the case with deer today, there are plenty of bucks to breed all the does.

Who cares about population objectives when you have a Limited Entry tag? Are you serious? Do you really need that explained to you? O|*


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

proutdoors said:


> The Book Cliffs, after more than a decade of being Limited Entry, is STILL under population objective. So, tell me again, how will antler restrictions make the herd 'healthier'?


How much stock should we put into "objectives"? The real question is how close are they to carrying capacity? After hearing all the "low" numbers in the Henry's I have since learned they are at carrying capacity but well short of objective. Keep in mind I am only saying this from a measuring health perspective. I think its a very worthwhile activity to try and up the carrying capacity through objectives and restoration projects but we can't call a herd unhealthy if it's at its carrying capacity.

I've said it before and it gets lost in the debate but I'll say it again. I don't know that we are trying to make the herd healthier with antler restrics. We want to preserve opportunity to keep as many hunters as we can with tags in their hand.


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## Winchester (Nov 1, 2010)

Interesting thread and responses. I have been hunting in Utah for over 40 years. I miss the time when we could hunt anywhere we wanted with no restriction on location, we just picked a spot and headed out with the family. But times have changed, so we try our best to stay informed, get involved in the process and roll with the changes. 

I think we will see several changes come from this. Fewer road hunters for one. I realize that some folks need to road hunt, my father is 86, can't march through the hills the way he used to and it's the only way I can keep him involved and with me for the hunt. What I am talking about is the casual hunter who goes up for the weekend, gets on his four wheeler and if they don't see it from the seat, they don't pull the trigger. I also hope this gets rid of the ever present drunks who go up with their buds on Friday drink all night and drive around all day Sat with a gun full of bullets hung over, looking for the easy kill. 

Perhaps this will get some up the folks back to real hunting, do your research on the area, do pre-season scouting and put a plan together. I watch my son spend hours behind his binoculars glassing the hillside. Inevitably, he finds the usual bucks milling about, but eventually, he spots a decent buck laying low. The key is actually hunting!

I don't usually get on these forums and voice my opinion but I have found the comments to be interesting and thought provoking. There are both positive and negative aspects to the changes, you will have to decide what those are for yourselves. Will I keep hunting in Utah? Yes, I love Utah and all that it offers. I doubt I will rifle hunt here any more now that my Father is older. But the archery hunt is still great and November can be really good along the wasatch front.


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## dartangion (Jul 2, 2008)

I can't believe so many people are quitting! I saw plenty of bucks this year in one of the most heavily hunted areas (the foothills behind Davis county). And I only got out twice. Granted I hiked my tail off but it makes me sad that just because people can't fill 10 tags in one morning or can't find the "big ones" like they used to, that they are going to quit getting into the outdoors and enjoying nature....which is what hunting is all about in my opinion. But whatever, if you are quitting then I guess that leaves less people in the mountains and a better chance for me! It just doesn't make sense. Do you quit fishing if you get skunked one day? or two days? Yeah know deer tags are more expensive and you only have few days to hunt but I really can't understand why this is an issue at all. I guess it's what separates the true outdoorsman from the rest.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I was actually talking with some friends Saturday about taking them rifle hunting where I deer hunt... so I may be skipping a year of archery and putting in for a general season deer tag. What unit depends on how they split up the state, if or when that happens.


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

i dont think its the got much to do with seeing bucks are not seeing them its the continual messing with the hunts thats got folks so upset that and the fact that they are already talking about raising the cost of the tags to supplement the lost funds when they cut tags correct me if im wrong but there talking 7000 on plan 1 and over 10,000 in plan 2. its upsetting to say the least when they have 3 are more plans in consecutive years and there 
not waiting to check ans see if there working are not. it makes me wonder if the whole dam bunch is taking turn
sittig on a whoppie cushion and when its there turn the whoppie up some brainstorm. like i mentioned earlier i ll
save my time of for deer hunting for wyoming were we combine a week for antelope and deer let the kids and ladies in the bunch hunt deer here in utah but the fact is were all in holding mode waiting to see what the braineacks will come up with.


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## bloodtrail (Sep 20, 2007)

Will all of you weekend warriors please quit so there are more tags for the real hunters! I watch you road hunt so fast you could barely see one if it ran in front of you! Spend some time, spend some money, and get some skills, or please get off the hills!!!

The herds are so bad this year that my family filled 100% of our tags for the first time ever! Including my 12 year old! I took a 22" wide 4 x 4 with great eye guards! I think most hunters now days are just lazy and refuse to get off of the roads especially when the weather is bad!

Please do quit as there are a lot of us who still want to hunt every year!


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## gitterdone81 (Sep 3, 2009)

I don't know these hunters that are complaining nor what their hunting styles are. However I saw MORE deer and bucks while driving than I did getting off the beaten path. I was focused mainly for Elk, however drives into and out of areas, including all the time I spent chasing the Wily Wapiti I saw overall less deer with more time in the field. This included multiple 7 mile hiking trips where we didn't see but a single doe!

It is easy for us to have recency bias and due to our success in a particular year all is well! Or due to lack of success the deer herds are gone. 

I think the suggestion made in another post, save up the complaints until we see some rutting and then see if the bucks are gone may make the most sense.

However from my own observations - which includes a daily commute to work where I have historically seen deer multiple times including some decent bucks, I haven't seen a single live deer on this roadway in eons. And the road kill is significantly down - suggest what is being echoed by the majority that deer herds are down. 

Also we need to remember that a majority of the hunters who are expressing their opinion didn't likely switch hunting methods from year to year. They weren't backcountry champions last year, and then decided that this year they would ride the road. They are comparing their own observations from year to year. While some of the deer may have moved further from the trail, it is unlikely that all but 7 groups of dear (seems to be the amount of 100% best deer hunts ever groups) moved further into the back country.

Congrats on your success, but it is unfair to automatically assume others didn't try simply because they didn't see.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

bullsnot said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > The Book Cliffs, after more than a decade of being Limited Entry, is STILL under population objective. So, tell me again, how will antler restrictions make the herd 'healthier'?
> ...


Fair questions/points.

I would assert EVERY deer herd is at/near current carrying capacity right now. That does not mean the carrying capacity is static, as is changes from winter to winter. However, the more does there are in the mix, the better the herd can rebound from harsh winters/droughts/disease, and the better the herd can replace deer killed via road kill/predators/hunters. As for restoration projects, units like the Henry and Book Cliff units have had MORE projects than general season areas, leaving one to wonder how effective these projects really are and how much more effective would they be if the buck:doe ratios were at levels that allowed for more does to be in the mix to drop fawns each year to actually get the most out of the habitat.

The rub with thinking antler restrictions is a effective way to "preserve opportunity to keep as many hunters as we can w/tags in their hand" is that if it works as you pro-restriction folks think, the increase in bucks WILL result in fewer does, thus in short order resulting in fewer bucks being recruited into the herd. Fewer bucks recruited into the herd each year means fewer permits for hunters. This is nothing more than artificially trying to increase the number of mature bucks in the mix, with predictable results; fewer overall deer and fewer permits in the near future.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

proutdoors said:


> The rub with thinking antler restrictions is a effective way to "preserve opportunity to keep as many hunters as we can w/tags in their hand" is that if it works as you pro-restriction folks think, the increase in bucks WILL result in fewer does, thus in short order resulting in fewer bucks being recruited into the herd. Fewer bucks recruited into the herd each year means fewer permits for hunters. This is nothing more than artificially trying to increase the number of mature bucks in the mix, with predictable results; fewer overall deer and fewer permits in the near future.


I can buy into that line of thinking but hasn't this led us into a paradox? With antler retrics we eventually have less bucks to hunt leading to cutting tags right? Without antler restrics we have less bucks now and tags are now on the chopping block anyway correct? Either direction means less opportunity.

My thought is this. If I could wrap up all of your points in a neat little bow (including the concept we are at or near carrying capacity) then the only conclusion that a rational person can come to is the only way to increase the deer population is to find ways to up the carrying capacity. I know it changes from year to year but upping it year over year is what I'm talking about. If that is a logical conclusion then that has led me to what I have ultimately said all along and that is there really isn't much the DWR can do to up the deer population regardless of what they do. They are only reacting to the issues that are causing the great shrink of the deer woods.

People talk about the great hunting in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming. They also talk about how the Colorado herd is shrinking at an alarming rate and of course the mule deer conditions in Utah. Consider these numbers.

Population of humans per square mile(2009):
Wyoming - 5.6
Montana - 6.7
Idaho - 18.7
Utah - 32.8
Colorado - 48.5

I can't help but wonder if these numbers tell more of the story than we may realize.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

I think you nailed it Bull, I was thinking the same thing a while back. The outdoors take a hit when people show up!! The good ol' days end soon as the state become full of people.


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## OKEE (Jan 3, 2008)

It would be like changing a life style. I don't think I'm old enough to do that yet.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

lot's of talk about quitting, poor deer herds, mismanagement, Wildlife Board complaints, RAC complaints etc.....



The majority of the issues people are upset about are all POLITICS. Today is election day. Get out and vote! Remember, who you vote for directly affects YOUR hunting -- your past votes have directly contributed to the mess we have with the politics of the DNR / DWR today! If you really want to get the DWR (and UDOT!) back to being managed by trained professionals vs. politicians, then make your vote count! (Governor, senator, representative -- they all matter!)


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