# First Reloads underway!



## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

So I have finally started reloading and let me tell ya, its a blast! Its so strange to hear that I'm sure but as sure as water is wet it really is relaxing and exciting for me. Better yet my two older sons are super interested and totally engaged in learning and helping. I'm going to post some pics and updates as I go, from reloading basics to my unique setup as it evolves to the actual shooting and precision of my loads (that's what started this whole thing for me really is I wanted to become a better shooter and wanted to take a "less expensive" rifle and make it a tack driver), and of course I am open to feedback. My first lesson learned this far:
Lube is very important (I forgot on the first one and got a case stuck and actually damaged the pin/rod on the die) :? The second thing I learned is I definitely need a more sturdy bench. 

Cheddar


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Very relaxing and my kids enjoy helping too! Best of luck!


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

longbow said:


> Reloading ain't cheap! Well, maybe it is, but you'll find yourself getting this bug in your head and you won't be able to stop. Soon you'll be keeping track of load data, fps, grains, temps and powders, blah, blah, blah. Someday I see your wife coming out to the garage to check on you and there you are sitting slumped over on a stool in front of your reloading bench, papers of data scattered about, a block of charged brass in front of you, calculator in hand, multiple reloading manuals open across your bench and several ammo boxes marked with precise loading data on the lid. She'll say, "Cheddy, what's wrong?" And slowly, with a tear in your eye, you'll raise your head and say, "after all this work, I can only get this Tikka T3 to shoot a half minute of angle! why God, why."
> You're already circling the reloading drain. It's started to suck you in. HA!


Remember when I posted this? Well, it's happened. There's no going back now.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Another man who will never be happy shooting factory ammo again. Congrats and I'm sorry. I can't remember the last time I fire factory ammo in a bolt rifle. I will go out on a limb and guarantee that you will become a much improved if not impoverished marksman as a result of your decision.---------SS


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

longbow said:


> Remember when I posted this? Well, it's happened. There's no going back now.


I do remember actually. The "Cheddy, whats wrong" pops into my head from time to time and makes me roll with laughter every time......still! Thank you!


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Springville Shooter said:


> Another man who will never be happy shooting factory ammo again. Congrats and I'm sorry. I can't remember the last time I fire factory ammo in a bolt rifle. I will go out on a limb and guarantee that you will become a much improved if not impoverished marksman as a result of your decision.---------SS


Thanks!! I hope so. So far I have sized, de-primed, cleaned, and re-primed. I am now messing with this scale so I can accurately and safely measure the powder charge and seat the bullets. Then its to the range for me!!


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Not to put a damper on your reloading enthusiasm, but a "blast" is not what most of us want to achieve while at the reloading bench. That comes later at the range. And not too large of a blast. We want to leave with everything intact. Except the targets that we intend to perforate.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Good on ya. When you finally feel like you are "getting it", take a step back and realize you are still only at the most basic steps. For alot of people, they think "good enough"... but others continue and take it to levels you cant imagine.

Here's an example of what I mean, its a very interesting thread by a reloader sharing his info on chamber pressures... and while that info is indeed interesting, I find his methods more so. His data gathering, preparation, analysis etc are top notch:

http://www.huntingnut.com/index.php...opic&t=10958&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Does everyone have to take it to this level? Not hardly... but getting in the habit of taking GOOD notes will make you a much better reloader. Any idiot can dribble powder into a case with a LEE powder scoop, but to understand the mechanics of whats going on inside a case when that primer gets fired, and how to utilize that for more accurate loads, that is the mark of a master reloader.

-DallanC


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

It's very addictive, proceed with caution.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I remember the first rounds that I touched off when I started reloading. I hid behind a stump with only my arm and hand holding the pistol above it when I pulled that trigger. 

Now the only rounds that I don't reload for are a couple of rifles that I inherited and plan on only taking on one hunt and don't already have the reloading dies for them. Then I'll purchase factory loads. Other than the only loads that my rifles and handguns are shot with is reloaded rounds that I have reloaded.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Tonight I am charging and seating bullets. I have 36 remington cases and 37 federal cases. I have 100gr. and 115gr. Nosler Ballistic tips and I thought I would do 3-4 rounds of each with a certain charge, and then work up a bit for each set? That way I can establish a base to determine what is more accurate. Is this practical or am I just waisting time?

Cheddar


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

When starting fresh, I google a bit and see if there is a common set of info regarding the caliber I want to load, then match that info to my reloading books and will load up 3-5 sets cartridges of 5 rounds each in a given powder, usually in .5 grain increments for most medium bore calibers.

When shooting I shoot a couple rounds then let the barrel cool. I usually bring lots of guns to rotate through while others are cooling. From the initial test firings, powder amount should show some clear preference to amount. From there, if accuracy / velocity is reasonable, I'll start tweaking other things like seating depths. Terrible accuracy means trying a new powder.

Make 100% sure you shoot that gun off a immobile rest. You want to eliminate the human component from the equation, and let the gun / ammo work for itself.

Have you tested the freebore of your rifle yet? If you dont have gauges, You may want to insert a empty sized case with a bullet placed in the mouth finger tight. Work the bolt forward and it should press the bullet into the case. 

You can also "smoke" a bullet with a candle, and press the bullet into a empty case then try chambering it and see if it makes rub marks on the olgive. If so, seat it .05 deeper and try again... until you get the bullet just deep enough it doesnt touch the riflings.

That is your maximum, test to see if it fits in your magazine, if not you might be limited by magazine space.

Alot of people leave seating depth for the end... but it can have a dramatic effect on pressure in different guns, see what the bullet MFG recommends.


-DallanC


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Ok, so what I learned today:
Beam scales are sensitive! Its amazing how a few granules of powder can flop this thing up or down.
The Lee Perfect Powder Measure is not so perfect! I definitely need a powder trickler. Getting the charge exactly what I want is tricky. 
IMR 4350 granules are a lot larger than I expected. I only have experience with real black powder in 2f and 3f. This stuff is huge!
When dealing in thousands, hundredths, or even tenths, it seems a mouse fart can have quite the impact. 

I need to get a funnel before I produce any more rounds. I made a couple 115gr. and 100gr. rounds just cuz the anxiety was killing me to do so but it took all night.

My area turned into a mess once I started messing with the powder charges.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Years ago there was a magazine article on whether or not you needed to weigh each powder charge out to the last 1/10 of a grain and what the difference would be if you didn't. They concluded that there is such a minute difference that you really don't need to worry about it and that most powder dispensers threw a charge that was close enough from one charge to another that you didn't have to weigh every charge. However with a large granular powder such as what you experienced may cause some underweight loads.

I also came to the conclusion that when I am using a powder that doesn't meter well out of a dispenser I'll use a set of Lee powder measures and finish out the load with my powder trickle that is made up of a bent teaspoon.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

It's a start. Couple other things besides the funnel that I don't see on your bench...pad to oil the cases, or a neck brush. Also, those rounds look pretty long, be sure and check overall length. Use an empty case with only the bullet inserted into the neck a little ways, squeeze the neck a little with some pliers so the bullet won't move up or down without a little force. Then chamber it into the rifle and close the bolt tight. When you extract the round the bullet will be pushed down into the case giving you the overall length with the bullet right against the throat of the chamber. Now, seat (adjust your seating die) the bullet just a little deeper than that test round and you should have your best overall length for that bullet. You DO NOT want the bullet touching the throat on your finished reloads. Also make sure the rounds will fit into your magazine and work through your action nicely before you determine your best overall length. A little bit shorter overall length is better than a little bit too long and touching the chamber throat.

Always leave a couple empty rows in your loading block. When you finish the current procedure with a case, move it to other end of the block so there is always an empty row between the cases you have finished and the unfinished cases. Start with all your cleaned, inspected and lubed cases standing in an upright position in the block, as you resize/prime and wipe off the oil, place them neck down on the other end of the block. When they're all primed, stop and look at them to be sure they all look uniform...that is, no primers not seated correctly for example. Then charge your rounds, placing them right side up back in the other end of the block. Then stop again and actually look down inside EACH case, you'll be able to see if any of the charges don't look right (dump any suspicious looking charges and recharge. Seat your bullets and examine all the rounds for any flaws, removing any that look flawed. There you go, done! Be careful, take you time and remember...consistence in every step is the key to good shooting, safe reloads.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

There is always something more to learn, here is my latest thing I learned, the comparator 



Hard to explain, but the video does a good job of it.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> There is always something more to learn, here is my latest thing I learned, the comparator
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to explain, but the video does a good job of it.


I like it. I didn't know there could be such a big difference in bullet length within a batch. 
Sounds like maybe a guy should seat the bullets at least 3-4 thou of inch deeper than the indicated overall length when using my method just to be on the safe side.

It is important to note that you need to adjust length with every change in manufacture, even if you are using the same weight bullet.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

BPturkeys said:


> I like it. I didn't know there could be such a big difference in bullet length within a batch.
> Sounds like maybe a guy should seat the bullets at least 3-4 thou of inch deeper than the indicated overall length when using my method just to be on the safe side.
> 
> It is important to note that you need to adjust length with every change in manufacture, even if you are using the same weight bullet.


If you're looking for a consistent OAL, you'll constantly be changing seating depth with your die while seating bullets during a session. When I first started out, I'd get the die set for the OAL recommended and then the next bullet would be shorter or longer and I'd be adjusting the stem the whole dang time. It's a little frustrating having so much variance between bullets in a box of 100.

The comparator is a very handy tool - I've used the method described above for finding max OAL for a particular bolt action rifle and had success, but the comparator allows you to make much more accurate measurements from base of cartridge to ogive of bullet. Once I find a particular seating depth, I'll load a bunch of rounds. The OAL (Base to Bullet tip) often varies quite a bit, but the Base to Ogive measurements are about dead on +/- .0005 .

I have the Hornady comparator and use modified cases to find max OAL, but I'm pretty sure there are others out there as well.

Here's a good link that illustrates while using the 223 REM http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/3...OGIVE_instead_of_bullet_TIP___My_results.html


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Great info guys! I definetely am going to do the sizing the OL with the rifle chamber. I seated everything to the max OL as of now which is 3.250. It is frustrating as some come out a hair bigger and some a hair smaller ex: 3.2515 or 3.2487. And the slightest movement of the fine adjusting knob on top of the LEE seating die seems to to work well. I also will be getting a better lube method. I did each one individually and it takes a lot of time, but hey you have to start somewhere. :grin:


Cheddar


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> I like it. I didn't know there could be such a big difference in bullet length within a batch.
> Sounds like maybe a guy should seat the bullets at least 3-4 thou of inch deeper than the indicated overall length when using my method just to be on the safe side.
> 
> It is important to note that you need to adjust length with every change in manufacture, even if you are using the same weight bullet.


I hadn't ever had that big of an issue with it until i got my 6.5 Creedmor using teh Match Burner bullets they vary big time, a guy talked me into buying it and I didnt fully understand how it worked, why I needed it until I explained to him how much the OAL varied, it now made much more sense and I got a .3" three shot group at 200 yards the first time I used it, so I am fully converted now.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Huge29 said:


> There is always something more to learn, here is my latest thing I learned, the comparator
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to explain, but the video does a good job of it.


Ya they are good, I use the sinclair hex ones:

http://www.brownells.com/reloading/...87_a_7c1021_a_7c749002933_d_749002942_d_20531

-DallanC


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I must admit I am a little old school. Newer and better ways are coming along all the time. The comparator is clearly the best way to go.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Ok, so now I want a comparator in 25-06 :grin:


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

Critter said:


> I'll finish out the load with my powder trickle that is made up of a bent teaspoon.


Good to know I'm not the only one who kind of rigs it a bit. a piece of brass that has been lightly crimped without the bullet. It works well as a scoop to get rid of excess out of my the balance pan or to trickle more on. but the spoon is great if you need to dig down into the powder container.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

So I did the chamber guage thing and ended up with 3.2335 So the question is is how much do I seat it further than that. .020? Also what is a respectable amount of time to let a barrel cool down to get consistant results. Say on a 85 degree day shooting 5 rounds at a time in the shade?

Thanks

Cheddar


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Your rifle will dictate to you what the seating depth should be on a reload, that along with the magazine in the rifle if you can't get your reloads into it. Some rifles like the bullet just off the lands and others like for the bullet to jump a whys before hitting them.

As for cooling off a barrel, I like to fire three shots and then wait long enough that the barrel is cool to the touch. If I have multiple rifles to shoot I'll shoot one round out of each rifle and then start at the first one. I'll usually use a couple of targets if I am doing it this way. Shooting 5 rounds at a time even in the shade is going to warm up the barrel quite quickly, even if it was below zero.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Here is the tried and trued method of distance off of the lands as told by a big tech dude for Berger http://www.bergerbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/COAL.pdf
That is a good read, but in short, a lot of guys have found that 0.015" is the sweet spot for them.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

We had a pretty good discussion about this a while back. 
http://utahwildlife.net/forum/18-firearms-reloading/29341-off-lands.html


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Made it to the range today with my fresh loads. Results with three shot groups.
-115 gr. Nosler Balistic tips with 50 gr. IMR4350 ...............7/8 @100 yds
-100 gr Nosler Balistic Tip with 50 gr. IMR4350.................a tad better @ 3/4" 100yds

I had some other loads at 47-48.5 gr. IMR4350 but they were all over the place. Or I was all over the place? I'm working on posting the pics. Stay tuned.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> Or I was all over the place? I'm working on posting the pics. Stay tuned.


Yea, you absolutely have to eliminate the human component. Like I said on the previous page:



> Make 100% sure you shoot that gun off a immobile rest. You want to eliminate the human component from the equation, and let the gun / ammo work for itself.


Several decades back I built a rest to hold a gun super steady. I use a sandbag on the front, and a bunny ear on the back. The whole thing just sits on a bench or on a tailgate and holds a gun rock steady. Its a bit ugly, I've always mean to remake it with better wood, use a router and stain it up purty, but I never get time. This thing still works fantastically and I just toss it in the back of the truck and dont sweat scratches or dings.



















I'd highly suggest something similar... or even just go buy a lead-sled if you have the $$$.

-DallanC


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

I agree. I was shooting off of a lead sled that I have. No weight in it though, but it seems to do pretty well


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

I've enjoyed using the Caldwell tack driver bag up front and homemade bags in the rear. I feel like it really allows me to get pretty steady.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

waspocrew said:


> I've enjoyed using the Caldwell tack driver bag up front and homemade bags in the rear. I feel like it really allows me to get pretty steady.


I have the TacDriver bag as well and I don't know if I like it. It seems I can't get low enough to get on target with it at a bench comfortably. I am wondering if it would be better for me in a prone position. My two oldest boys used it today and shot pretty well though. :shock:


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Here are some pics of this afternoons shoot. What is the proper way to measure groupings anyway? The second pic is from my oldest two sons shooting the 25-06 (12 and 10) 3 inch groups! not bad for pretty much their first centerfire rifle shooting. We were at the Lee Kay center and they were shooting off of a Caldwell TacDriver front bag and no rear bag. I am quite pleased.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> What is the proper way to measure groupings anyway?


Center to center of the two holes the furthest apart from each other, is the overall width. Some people care more about an averaged group size but that entails computing a center point, measuring all the offsets from the center point and dividing them by number of holes.

Here is what I compute in PointBlank: Green is maximum rectangular size, Blue is the widest group size, Red is the average group size. Got tired of doing all that manually over time and just added it to the software, easy peasy.










-DallanC


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

So I noticed that I am shooting high and to the left of center. Same shot placement between two different rifles (270 win and 25-06 rem) My boys were also shooting high and left. Presuming that the both scopes are sighted in accurately, what could this be a sign of in shooting error on the shooters part?

Cheddar


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Mr.CheddarNut said:


> So I noticed that I am shooting high and to the left of center. Same shot placement between two different rifles (270 win and 25-06 rem) My boys were also shooting high and left. Presuming that the both scopes are sighted in accurately, what could this be a sign of in shooting error on the shooters part?
> 
> Cheddar


I can't imagine that you would have two independent identical examples of shooting error. Some just shoot differently than others, the pattern is what matters; pretty easy to adjust the scope once you achieve the consistent pattern.


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