# Gun counter guys lie about Vortex scopes



## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

First off, this post is not meant to undermine Vortex optics in any way. They have several great offerings of which I have a few. However, they do employ one marketing strategy that encourages salesman to do a bit of overselling. Vortex gives a form of commission for sales of their products to salespeople. Very smart. I have heard the following while lurking at local gun counters:

The lowest grade Vortex is superior to the top end Leupold.
Vortex is dominating the 1000 yard match circuit.
With the Vortex PST, it is simple to shoot over 1000 yards.
With Vortex 1/2 MOA adjustments, you can make farther shots.
Vortex makes the most durable scope on the market.
The Vortex PST is the same quality as Nightforce.
Military snipers use Vortex scopes on the 50 BMG.

I just shake my head and think......great marketing strategy Vortex. Well played.-------SS


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Who is dominating the 1,000 yard market? The majority of people I see shooting competitively use them. The Leupold comment is certainly way off of the mark...


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

All the 600 and 1000 bench guys I know shoot Nightforce and US Optics. Most serious long range hunting guys that I know shoot Leupold and Huskemaw. Like I said, nothing against the scopes, but let's keep it real. Vortex makes a great long range/varmint scope for under a grand and their warranty is top notch.-------SS


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## Rspeters (Apr 4, 2013)

Vortex does have a great warranty, but there's other optics out there that are better for the money. And yeah, that's a flat out lie that the low end Vortex is better than the top end Leupold.

For me, having a foolproof warranty is nice, but I'm more likely to look at quality than the warranty. Kind of like how Kia does the 100k mile warranty on their cars, I'll take the Lexus with the lesser warranty any day.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Rspeters said:


> Vortex does have a great warranty, but there's other optics out there that are better for the money. And yeah, that's a flat out lie that the low end Vortex is better than the top end Leupold.
> 
> For me, having a foolproof warranty is nice, but I'm more likely to look at quality than the warranty. Kind of like how Kia does the 100k mile warranty on their cars, I'll take the Lexus with the lesser warranty any day.


Actually, for the money, I think Vortex is a major player. However, the hot air blowers often leave out the critical qualifiers. Like I said, nothing against Vortex. I would love to see Weaver or Nikon offer a better kick back. All of a sudden,they would be the best in the west.-----SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

A Weaver was the single worst scope I've ever owned in my life. Every shot it would move 3-4 MOA. We threw that piece of junk in the trash. Love Leupolds but I've been increasingly impressed with Nikons and even bought another new one just a week ago.

-DallanC


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

Yeah, the way better for the money post gets me. I think Vortex has the best scope for the money in many price ranges.

It sounds like the stores are the ones with an issue. Hiring salesmen without accurate knowledge of products is their bad. I use to be in retail sales and some companies gave kickbacks, but you sell them based on features. I get sold by the guys who have true product knowledge...

Vortex is an easy sell if you aren't dumb haha.


Edit: the vortex ia dominating 1000 yard comment, who they trying to sell on this one? Is every joe blow trying to start competing at 1000? If you are relying on the counterclerk for help with that, then good luck to ya!


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

RandomElk16 said:


> Edit: the vortex ia dominating 1000 yard comment, who they trying to sell on this one? Is every joe blow trying to start competing at 1000? If you are relying on the counterclerk for help with that, then good luck to ya!


I love this comment. One of the local shops is having a "long range" workshop. I hope they are hiring some outside help because I haven't met any of their employees that exhibit the experience and knowledge to really do much more than try to sell a bunch of gadgets. I must admit that as a 20+ year long range guy who still has much to learn, the recent long range hype is laughable. I was at the range this fall and watched a group of guys preparing for a doe antelope hunt. They had steel plates at 1000 and 1300 yards. They had custom equipment that cost more than my pickup. And they never hit squat. I wondered why they didn't have any closer targets in the 300 to 500 yard range but who has time for mediocrity I guess. The only rifle I had with was my 223 and I did take the guilty pleasure of ringing their 1000 yard gong a few times.

In talking to them, they were nice guys and had the right equipment. What they were lacking was time and experience. Those are two things that there are no shortcuts for. If you are an aspiring long gunner and you notice that you are not hitting your targets very consistently, maybe you should move them a bit closer and keep working on the fundamentals of marksmanship. Contrary to popular belief, good shooting at 100-500 yards is really cool and impressive too.

Sorry fellas, off the soap box now.------SS


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm going to weigh in on the gun counter side of this issue. I'm not going to try to defend the salesmen that that deliberately try to mislead a customer and sell them something that will not meet their needs. I know of more than one instance when another salesman stepped in to correct misinformation given by a new salesman or when a customer was directed to a different salesman who had more expertise in a given subject. Most of the time when I am helping a customer build an AR, I just have to hand them the parts that they ask for. I can field strip and maintain an AR, but I have never built one. Now a Ruger Blackhawk, or Remington 700 is a different story. I've been working on those for quite a while. The same with a Ruger 10/22. I know my way around the 1911, Browning Hi-Power, S&W M&P, and quite a few other pistols. Revolvers have always held my interest. I'm something of an old school gun guy. Don't bother asking me about an AK or Mosin Nagant, I don't have a clue. I'll show you what we have on the shelf, but I know little about them and have no desire to learn more. If you ask me my opinion on shotguns, I'll sell you a Remington 870. That is what I'm most familiar with. I know the Benelli is a fine gun, I just don't like them. They don't look or feel right to me. 
Now when it comes to scopes, I really do like the Vortex line. They have a lot of features you'll pay a lot more for from other manufacturers. And they have the best warranty and customer service that I have experience with. Not that I have ever needed the lifetime warranty on the Sightron, Burris, Redfield, or Leupold scopes that are on my personal rifles and handguns. So I guess that one is a wash. Of the three people that I know personally that shoot long range competition, all use Vortex scopes. Are they the best scope out there for the job? I don't know, but they work for the guys that I know that use them. And when I get the money for a new scope to replace the Redfield 4-16 on my 243, it will be a Vortex.
Most of the specialized training for gun counter guys comes from the other salesmen. There is also a bunch of online training from individual manufacturers, but this has to be done on your own time. I have learned more from the customers that come into the store than from most of the other sources. I don't think that it is reasonable to expect a person to be an expert with every product in the store. It is hard enough just trying to keep up with knowing what is in the inventory, let alone becoming an expert with every item that we sell. 
Sorry about the long rant, but there are a lot of customers that have no clue about shooting, hunting, reloading, etc. Like the kid that wanted to trade in his 30-06 for a 308 because he wanted a more powerful rifle. Or the one that thought IMR and H 4350 were the same powder and can be used interchangeably. The ones that want me to bore sight their rifles so they won't have to shoot them at the range. I can go on and on and on and on.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Loke,

It would be funny to have you post a tidbit each week from your adventures at the gun counter........except some of us might recognize ourselves and be embarrassed. :mrgreen:-----SS


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Typical Gun Counter behavior. Very few that I have run into have had experience with everything on the shelf. Gun counter managers at times will push stuff to get it off the shelfs, as in they have had it to long. Do your research.
And some of the stores (Cal Ranch, Big 5, Dicks, Sports Authority.........) don't know squat !


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Springville Shooter said:


> I love this comment. One of the local shops is having a "long range" workshop. I hope they are hiring some outside help because I haven't met any of their employees that exhibit the experience and knowledge to really do much more than try to sell a bunch of gadgets. I must admit that as a 20+ year long range guy who still has much to learn, the recent long range hype is laughable. I was at the range this fall and watched a group of guys preparing for a doe antelope hunt. They had steel plates at 1000 and 1300 yards. They had custom equipment that cost more than my pickup. And they never hit squat. I wondered why they didn't have any closer targets in the 300 to 500 yard range but who has time for mediocrity I guess. The only rifle I had with was my 223 and I did take the guilty pleasure of ringing their 1000 yard gong a few times.
> 
> In talking to them, they were nice guys and had the right equipment. What they were lacking was time and experience. Those are two things that there are no shortcuts for. If you are an aspiring long gunner and you notice that you are not hitting your targets very consistently, maybe you should move them a bit closer and keep working on the fundamentals of marksmanship. Contrary to popular belief, good shooting at 100-500 yards is really cool and impressive too.
> 
> Sorry fellas, off the soap box now.------SS


Shawn Carlock, the gunsmith who made one of my longrange guns, once told me that at whatever range you're shooting at "you should be shocked if you DON'T hit your target. Find the range at which you hit every time and that's your max hunting range."


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Just the other day a young man came in looking for an AR10, chambered for the 308. He wanted it for elk hunting. He had never shot a rifle before, and wanted a gun that he could use to shoot an elk out to 8-900 yards. He wanted a scope that could shoot that far, and 30 round magazines in case he needed an extra shot or two.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Loke said:


> Just the other day a young man came in looking for an AR10, chambered for the 308. He wanted it for elk hunting. He had never shot a rifle before, and wanted a gun that he could use to shoot an elk out to 8-900 yards. He wanted a scope that could shoot that far, and 30 round magazines in case he needed an extra shot or two.


YIKES!:shock:-------SS


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Usually guys like that have no idea how far 800 yards is.


-DallanC


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## izzydog (Jan 18, 2008)

Springville Shooter said:


> YIKES!:shock:-------SS


I don't get it. Yikes because he is trying to sneak so close to an elk or because he is going to look bad-ascot for doing it with an ar?


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Loke said:


> Just the other day a young man came in looking for an AR10, chambered for the 308. He wanted it for elk hunting. He had never shot a rifle before, and wanted a gun that he could use to shoot an elk out to 8-900 yards. He wanted a scope that could shoot that far, and 30 round magazines in case he needed an extra shot or two.


Did you put your hands up and slowly back away, all the while saying "go, go, please go".?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I made sure that I didn't talk him into buying anything. Told him that maybe he needed to go out with his friends and shoot some of their guns before he made such an expensive decision.


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## Stickboy (Oct 28, 2010)

I see a ton of S&B and nightforce on the line of the F-Class and Tactical Precission matches. I don't see near as many Leup's as I used to. I see Vortex (PST especially) as good value mostly. If you are entering into hitting little things at long distances it is a great starting scope. Even Bushy has taken a stab at a tube larger than 30mm as of late. There are a ton more options now than even 10 yrs ago. I like the PST, but to say it is one of the only scopes (or at least insinuate) that long range guys use is laughable.

On another note. Time and experience can not be *over valued*.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

I was at the gun counter a couple years ago when a mid 30s guy was looking for a factory rifle "that would hit prairie dogs at 800 yards consistently and reach out to a 1000 yards." The man at the counter asked if he was going to reload to which he replied "I'll start as soon as I get my rifle dialed in with factory shells." The guy behind the gun counter rolled his eyes and said, pretty much any of the rifles we stock will work for you. I smiled pretty big trying to keep from laughing and the guy behind the counter had to turn away so as to not start laughing.

The guys behind the counter usually don't know everything, they usually know some things really well, but have little to no clue about at least 50% of what is behind the counter. It is on them to give what information they have and then qualify their statements with the information they don't have. I will often ask some simple questions I already know the answers to to figure out how much BS the guy is spewing. If he fails the test, his suggestions have absolutely no value to me.

It is a tough job, in a situation like that above, what are they supposed to say? I guess they could say "You'll need a custom $1000 rig and that doesn't include at least another $1000 for a scope and then 5-10 years of experience reloading and shooting", but I wouldn't keep an employee that pushed business out the door.


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## goonsquad (Sep 15, 2010)

WAIT ONE SECOND! You're telling me that a salesman is telling me what I want to hear to sell me something???
NO!!!!!¡!!!!!¡!!!!!¡!!!!


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

toasty said:


> I was at the gun counter a couple years ago when a mid 30s guy was looking for a factory rifle "that would hit prairie dogs at 800 yards consistently and reach out to a 1000 yards." The man at the counter asked if he was going to reload to which he replied "I'll start as soon as I get my rifle dialed in with factory shells." The guy behind the gun counter rolled his eyes and said, pretty much any of the rifles we stock will work for you. I smiled pretty big trying to keep from laughing and the guy behind the counter had to turn away so as to not start laughing.
> 
> The guys behind the counter usually don't know everything, they usually know some things really well, but have little to no clue about at least 50% of what is behind the counter. It is on them to give what information they have and then qualify their statements with the information they don't have. I will often ask some simple questions I already know the answers to to figure out how much BS the guy is spewing. If he fails the test, his suggestions have absolutely no value to me.
> 
> It is a tough job, in a situation like that above, what are they supposed to say? I guess they could say "You'll need a custom $1000 rig and that doesn't include at least another $1000 for a scope and then 5-10 years of experience reloading and shooting", but I wouldn't keep an employee that pushed business out the door.


I get it and I don't. I see what he means about getting use to his rifle before he starts loading. Then he can gauge what it does, maybe some of the factory weights it/he likes. Plus their are a million premium and match grade bullets out now-a-days. I can see how the clerk may see that as silly, but at the same time if the guy is like "I am already loading for a rifle of which I don't have yet" makes less sense. Hand loading is a whole different can of worms, and doesn't disqualify someone from being an excellent marksman. Just helps us nit picky OCD guys a little.

To me (experience in sales and sales management), that is the perfect person to ask a budget and load up with all the gear you can squeeze in there. I will take that over the common browser any day. The guy said any rifle will work, but is that true? I can go to any store that sells rifles and show you a ton that would put someone who didn't have a marksman Sensei or years of experience at a giant disadvantage.

I am sure someone will respond that they have shot 1000 with every round under the sun, but your job is to help that person find as much success as possible within their means. Bullpoopy doesn't usually accomplish that, like said Vortex not-even-close-to-salesmen.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Check out March scopes. A friend of mine has one on his 6 BR. Talk about clarity at high power. Sheesh.----SS


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

toasty said:


> ..... a factory rifle "that would hit prairie dogs at 800 yards consistently and reach out to a 1000 yards."


 I can show you quite a few that would be capable of that (now here is the qualifier) with the right shooter behind the gun. Most of the rifles being made today are capable of accuracy that was unheard of 20 years ago. There are quite a few that go so far as to guarantee MOA accuracy right out of the box with premium factory ammo. Most of the shooters I know are not capable of that type of accuracy.

Oh, and by the way, we need to define "consistently". I can consistently hit a prairie dog at 800 yards about 3% of the time. All of the time. 3%. Consistently.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

Mirage is a booger at 800 yards during prarie dog season. Better be out early for that kind of shooting.

Loke is right about modern rifles. The Savage that you can buy at Wal Mart for under $400.00 will likely shoot circles around the Mark V that your rich uncle spent a months wages for in the 80's. How lucky we are in the shooting world! He is also right on about the average marksman being the weak link in the set-up. I find myself having to go back to the basics quite often. Going back to the basics for me involves my Cooper M22 in 243. If I can't shoot bugholes with that rifle, I know where the blame lies and I go back to the shooting basics until the groups shrink back to 1/4" or so......and I love every minute!!----SS


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Loke said:


> I can show you quite a few that would be capable of that (now here is the qualifier) with the right shooter behind the gun. Most of the rifles being made today are capable of accuracy that was unheard of 20 years ago. There are quite a few that go so far as to guarantee MOA accuracy right out of the box with premium factory ammo. Most of the shooters I know are not capable of that type of accuracy.


I take "consistently" to mean at least 50% of the time. MOA gun and shooter doesn't come close to hitting pdogs at 800 yards "consistently". I've shot at a lot of long range praire dogs for many years with some custom rifles with really nice scopes. With all that gear, years of shooting and reloading experience, and sending thousands of rounds down field, I've never hit an 800 yard prairie dog, I've come close, but never got 800 yards.

Loke, I will take you up on your offer later in the spring when the pdogs start popping their heads out. I'm not being a smart a$$ either, I would like to learn what you're doing that I am not. Maybe I need to fling more lead and longer dogs. If I can't hit a dog with 5 or 6 shots, 10 max, I stop shooting. I will have a spotting scope and 1000 yard rangefinder to document.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Toasty, I'd love to take you up on that offer. However, I'm afraid you will be thoroughly unimpressed with my shooting ability. I'm just an average guy that knows how average I am. My longest shot ever made was on a pot gut up on Skyline Drive. It was, at best guess, somewhere between 650 and 800 yards. We will never know, because there were no laser ranging devices in those days. The only thing we had was our eyes (and we all know how accurate those are), and an estimation of the hold over required to make the hit. With a 243 Winchester in a Remington 700 ADL and a Burris 4-12 compact scope, I'm sure that the the overriding factor that contributed to this hit was luck. I did see the bullet strike from the first shot, so I did have a good idea of what the hold over would be. The second shot was right on for elevation, and the third was a hit. For a rifle that would average an 8-10 inch group at that range, luck becomes a major factor.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Here is a report that reminded me of this thread, I was a little surprised http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/12/22/best-rifle-scope-what-the-pros-use/


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Loke said:


> Toasty, I'd love to take you up on that offer. However, I'm afraid you will be thoroughly unimpressed with my shooting ability. I'm just an average guy that knows how average I am. My longest shot ever made was on a pot gut up on Skyline Drive. It was, at best guess, somewhere between 650 and 800 yards. We will never know, because there were no laser ranging devices in those days. The only thing we had was our eyes (and we all know how accurate those are), and an estimation of the hold over required to make the hit. With a 243 Winchester in a Remington 700 ADL and a Burris 4-12 compact scope, I'm sure that the the overriding factor that contributed to this hit was luck. I did see the bullet strike from the first shot, so I did have a good idea of what the hold over would be. The second shot was right on for elevation, and the third was a hit. For a rifle that would average an 8-10 inch group at that range, luck becomes a major factor.


Speaking of long range kills, this reminds me of one. My stepson and I were out by Promontory Point shooting my Edge one mile at a 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 metal plate. I "walked" the shot in and then let him shoot while I called the shots on a cell phone from behind a rock near the target. I called a ceasefire and went over to check his hits and there on the ground was a dead kangaroo mouse that had been hiding six feet from the target. He might have missed the target by six feet but he was sure proud of hitting a mouse from a mile away.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

PD's @ 800 to 1000? yeah right... there's a salesman doing his thing, then there's outright Baloney spreading. Was everyone able to walk out with the jewelry they walked in with? Sounds pretty deep in there!


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

longbow, about the EDGE... How do you like it? Im pondering having one built.

feel free to pm if you'd like.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Wow I love my Edge. I had Shawn Carlock and his dad at Defensive Edge make it for me. He guarantees 1/2 inch at 100 yards. Mine's called the Canyon Rifle. You can look it up on his website. If you have a very steady rest and absolute trigger control, you wouldn't believe what you can do out to 1500 yards.
You have to form your own brass from 300 UltraMag which are pretty cheap. I load 92grs of H1000 and get 2925fps. Most people get in the high 2800s with their Edges. For some reason I have a really fast barrel.
If you want to get a cheap Edge, buy a used Savage, or similar accurate rifle, and have a gunplumber ream it out to an Edge. 
Man, I wish I was down in Utah right now. We'd have to go out to the desert and shoot a few rounds.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Shawn is a stud, ive chatted with him at length about the EDGE over on longrangehunting.com, just wanted to hear an opinion on that bad boy from someone other than his imidiate following over there. 

id love to burn a little powder down it with ya anytime...


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