# Lion hunt open = 1 cat state wide?



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well the lion hunt opened 11-17..
Been watching that harvest objective stats on the DWR site...
Prime time hunting conditions with snow,,I see guys with dogs everywhere..

1 frick'in cat checked in,, in 11 days?
I know there could be a couple off LE units, but OMG, 
That's some piZZ poor lion hunting right there......


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I dunno about everyone else, but the first time or two of the season is always an adventure with my dogs......it takes a train wreck or two to shake the rust off. :O•-:


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

A couple of lion hunters out here in Tooele County have treed 5 cats so far, but they are being picky about punching their tags so early in the hunt.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Just a wild guess,,,But, Their hunting Oquirrh-Stansbury*?

* You may not harvest a cougar wearing a radio collar on the Oquirrh-Stansbury hunting unit.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Just a wild guess,,,But, Their hunting Oquirrh-Stansbury*?
> 
> * You may not harvest a cougar wearing a radio collar on the Oquirrh-Stansbury hunting unit.


NONE of the treed cats had collars, so what's your point? :?


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Were they on Stansbury?

Just curious,,I know there are still a few cats there.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Goofy there are cats everywhere if you know where to look.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Yes, they were on the Stans, although they are going after a big tom on the Oquirrh side in the morning. He does NOT have a collar.


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

shhhhhhhhhhhh on the big cats im one of the picky ones lol the guys have treed 3 cats since thanksgiving all either females are imature toms but with the hounds men that are helping out its just a matter of time before they getter done


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

mack,,,,,,,,,,We want PICTURES!!


----------



## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

A friend of a friend took a cat this last weekend somewhere up Diamond Fork. Sorry for the hacked up pic but I haven't got permission yet to post the pics. He took it with his bow. That's at least 2 cats now.


----------



## muzzlehunter (Nov 29, 2009)

Saw a cougar above tooele sunday morning. Very big, trying for some deer. Saw him from the pavement. Biggest cat ive ever seen.


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

i got the vernon permit but a friend of mine from tooele has the oquirh permit he has great dogs so if he finds it its in big trouble its a quite time for right know were all working but lookout starting friday. as for as pic i ll have to forward them to pro to see if he would postem


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

mack1950, post them on your facebook page, and I will post them up here for you.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I wish we would kill 90% of the lions in this state until our deer herds make a come back. We should also kill 90% of our coyotes. Keep killing them lions


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

were going to do our part thats for sure we know of at least 4 cats working a herd over in the vernon area, one female and cub a imature cat not sure of the sex it bailed out of the tree before we could determine and the resident tom he is big enough i dont think another male will stick around and thats the ole boy were after oh and pro did you get the e mail of the piebald bull one of the guys we were helping harvested its a neat looking bull espically with that white face


----------



## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

That's a dang nice cat in the picture, looks like a ton of fun.


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> I wish we would kill 90% of the lions in this state until our deer herds make a come back. We should also kill 90% of our coyotes. Keep killing them lions


Anyone besides coyoteslayer want to turn this into another deer vs lion thread??
Huh, didn't think so.....


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Anyone besides coyoteslayer want to turn this into another deer vs lion thread??
> Huh, didn't think so.....


Anyone disagree that lions kill deer or that we should kill 90% of all lions until our der herds are on the rebound?

Lions aren't vegetarians. I'm happy that some hound friends of mine have killed 3 females and 1 tom so far


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I live in Evanston WY. We have a good local deer population, good enough that the Game & Fish offers an unlimited number of resident over-the-counter deer tags. But we have few, if any lions. Is that why we have good deer numbers? Great rabbit population? Maybe so. 

Travel on I80 into Echo Caynon and the deer disappear. Deer use to be lousy there, and it was a tough stretch of road to drive at night because of them. I see few dead or live deer between Evanston and Croydon these days. What's up with that? It's pretty much the same kind of habitat, same amount of grazing as Evanston's deer country. Seems to be fewer deer and more lion sightings now in the I80 corridor between Evanston and Morgan. 

Also, I hunted Morgan/Rich LE lion in 07 and was surprised how many cats there were out there, and the low numbers of deer and rabbits relative to what I seen just across the border in Wyoming where there were few cougars but lots of deer and rabbits.

I know little about Utah's moutain lions. Besides Morgan/Rich I hunted the Bonanza area, but is was nearly 30 years ago. And once in a while a cat comes out of the North Slope into Wyoming and gives a yearling horse or house cat a bad time.


----------



## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

I've ran acrossed two seperate lion kills in the last week. The kills were within a mile of each other and both deer were nice bucks.

Those stinky cats are scarfin' good right now. The yotes and birds are lovin' the little scraps that are left...


----------



## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

This last spring while out looking for sheds up Sheep Creek we found a lion kill....then another....then another...then another and so on until we counted 8 dead deer within an acre of ground. On the last kill site we saw momma's tracks and tracks of at least 2 little ones. The strange thing was there were still plenty of deer around. Some within 50 yards of several of the kills. Those cats had a pretty **** good set up.


----------



## scott_rn (Sep 11, 2007)

*Lion vs. Deer (management)*

Honest question here.

Let me preface this by saying *I've heard *that big toms kill a lot of young lions.

Does holding out for a big tom actually increase cub recruitment, thereby increasing mt. lion populations?

Maybe this has been hashed out, but I'm curious (I've got a brother-in-law who's a houndsman). I guess I'm a little more concerned about killing a bear or three in the spring to keep em' away from the moose calves.


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

*Re: Lion vs. Deer (management)*



scott_rn said:


> Honest question here.
> 
> Let me preface this by saying *I've heard *that big toms kill a lot of young lions.
> 
> ...


Yes, there is that argument because there are a couple of factors at play.

First, a resident tom (and to a lesser extent even females) will kill other lions trespassing into their territory. I know from my own experience, back when we had several older mature toms in the area, I used to frequently come across the remains of dead lions killed by another. But since the average age of lions harvested in the unit I primarily hunt is now under 2 years of age, I've rarely seen it. Right after they opened up the Cache unit to harvest objective hunting and most of the older resident cats were wiped out, there was a noticable spike in the lion population.

Second, fertility rates have been shown to increase as the lion population decreases. Most of this has to do with food availibility if you kill down too far. Instead of a female cougar raising 1 cub to adulthood, they are now able to raise 3 because they don't have to travel as far to find food...... they don't have the competition. The closer the female is to her cubs and the shorter distance she has to move them to feed on a kill, the better she is able to protect them from other lions, coyotes, and other predators.

Some CWMU operators I know don't allow cougar hunting on their land just because of these reasons. They would rather have just one or two older mature lions on their place than a half a dozen smaller ones killing their deer.


----------



## houndhunter (Oct 2, 2010)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Anyone besides coyoteslayer want to turn this into another deer vs lion thread??
> > Huh, didn't think so.....
> 
> 
> ...


Killin that many females is exactly what will get lion hunting shut down! The " IF IT TREES IT DIES" attitude needs to stop! Colorado bear hunters got their education, and look at the bear problems they have now. Certain wildlife groups will get their way if too many females are killed, and lions will be like house cats in this state.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

No, it actually helps reduce the lion population which is what we need to do.


----------



## scott_rn (Sep 11, 2007)

Thanks for your perspective Kevin D, do you think the CWMU operators are justified, or does the increased fertility make it a moot point?


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

scott_rn said:


> Thanks for your perspective Kevin D, do you think the CWMU operators are justified, or does the increased fertility make it a moot point?


My own opinion? Because most CWMU's operate on 10,000-30,000 acres, restricting the take of lion only on their property while the surrounding land is open isn't going to have much of an effect. The reason is because even territorial cougars will have a huge home range and will ultimately wander off the property and be killed. An average tom cougar will have a home range of about 35 square miles while a female 25 square miles. There are very few CWMU's in the state that control that kind of acreage.

Cougars have to be managed on a mega scale to be successful. So while I do believe the theory that killing off the mature lions tends to increase the population in the short term is credible, an individual landowner's decision to restrict the take on their piece thinking it is going to have an effect on the lion/deer ratio is misguided.


----------



## houndhunter (Oct 2, 2010)

coyoteslayer said:


> No, it actually helps reduce the lion population which is what we need to do.


No! Once they limit houndmen and what and where they can hunt, it will increase population dramatically. Already talk about spot and stalk bear units...not an effective way of controlling population IMHO. Coyotes kill as many or more than lions do! Bring back the poison for the coyotes and watch the deer herd explode, like it did in the 1950's.


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

the houndsman need to have a free run on were they can run there dogs as long as they have a pursuet permit
let them have fun i still to this day get a chill when i hear a pack of hounds light up and hell im 60


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

A big tom was killed Wednesday on the Oquirrhs by a lady. 

As for pursuit permits, IMO they shouldn't be doled out until after those with kill permits have had a month or so w/o them getting messed up by the chasers.


----------



## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

that was one nice cat gary,s wishing he had it but if i know him and his running buddy there gonna get him a dandy lol hope its quck i would like the help on my tag, the boys walked a trail for a while today but it didnt freshen enough to let there dogs on it. we need a nice freshing snowfall they cut the bigger set and a smaller track a bit later they could have run the smaller set but with a bigger cat in the area they decided to back off for the day.


----------



## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

I have put in the boot work this season, over 100 miles hiked, and well my numbers are at an all time low. It is pretty sad. I wish I had some COYOTE hounds, things sure would be on the up & up.


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Hounhunter wrote:
"Coyotes kill as many or more than lions do!"

Maybe so but I doubt it.The majority of the mortality caused by dogs is done during the fawning season. Coyotes can be killed year round,no license,no season,no limit.Cats should have no more protection than the dogs. We manage cats to a maximum objective when we should be managing to have as few as possible. Why has the board done this and at the same time reduced opportunity for deer hunters? Is it to appease a minute segment of the hunter populace? I doubt that as well. More likely has to do with supply and demand. The smaller the deer population and less tags means the money commanded by auction tags will grow exponentially.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Trust me its not an oversight its by design. 

The typical biologist wants to manage all species to capacity. It fits their model for a healthy ecosystem. All the while they consider hunters as this outside burden that must be tolerated. A flawed mentality if you ask me. Because hunters aren't going to go away. They would be better off not fighting the reality that humans are predators and should be accounted as such.

P.S The DWR is trying to say that the deer herd is currently at capacity. So in their minds everything is honky dory. It those pesky hunters that keep trying to mess it up.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Those dirty dogs, trying manage for a healthy ecosystem. The nerve of those ignorant schmucks!


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I know that's what Yellowstone is for. :mrgreen:


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Anyone besides coyoteslayer want to turn this into another deer vs lion thread??
> > Huh, didn't think so.....
> 
> 
> ...


Yote,,Not a good idea to be taking females right now,,,
this will result in less lion hunting opportunity,,,from the guide book.

Harvest of adult females
Now, biologists will focus on the number of adult
females harvested over a three-year period and
recommend management changes based on what
they find.
If adult female harvest is above a specified
range, permit numbers will decrease. If harvest
drops below that specified range, permit numbers
will increase.


----------



## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Another kitty harvested this past weekend.


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Love it!


----------



## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

Ive seen probably 50 lions this year alone.....If you count feral cats. *(u)*


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Its now been open 3 weeks today,,,,
There now has been 9 cats harvested on H/O units.

And one hit by a car on HWY 6.........STEVOs thread.

And I know of 6 split/LE cats counting the ones on this thread..

So, that makes a grand total of 16 I know of.


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I wonder what your point is? I know many hunters are still being selective, so the number of reported kills means squat.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

The first year the Pahavat went quota , It was 40 lions , fill in three weeks.

The first year Timp and Cascade opened H/O, 20 was the number on both,so 40 there..
They closed in a few weeks, so then a new "add on" quota for 6 on each, that was filled,,

Now here we are , Timp and Cascade opened for three weeks,,,,,,ZERO CAT HARVESTED!

That is the point.,,,,,I could go on.


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

I suspect a lot of the harvest has been under reported as of yet. I know of at least four lions killed on the Cache and Ogden units......1 tom and 3 females. Could be a lot of the DWR personnel checking in these lions are just slow to report.

Still, your point in the previous post is not lost on me Goofy.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I've kept track of how many cats have came out of H/O units for allot of years.
I usually did a weekly update and used t to determine what units I would hunt.

I found my 2004/05 records today, In 2004 the lion hunts opened on 12/11..
I did a state wide check of H/O units on 12/21..2004
In the first 10 days of the 04 season, there were 36 lions harvested..

I'm now looking to see if I can find any of my late 90s numbers.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

K, I found my 1997/98 proclamation I kept the numbers in..
That was the first year harvest objective hunting was used for lion management.
The 97/98 season is when sport harvest peeked on lions , 600+ cats .

In the first 3 weeks of the 97/98 season, 106 lions were checked in.
The lion population in Utah has been on the decline since the 97/98 season.


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Good I hope it keeps declining. I know it won't happen but it wouldn't bother me if they were eradicated.


----------



## yfzduner450 (Dec 28, 2009)

But Goofy we are over run with lions and that's why our deer herds are being killed off. haha!!

I agree with you that lion numbers are declining and if the deer guys get their way they will keep going that way. I wish they could find a happy median to make it good for everyone.


----------



## Cold Track (Sep 11, 2007)

What a bunch of selfish so called hunters we have on here. Lets eliminate the lions to the point that they can't be hunted at all. Look where California is, lions everywhere and the public hunter can't do anything about it because their lion season is gone, GONE! It won't come back, and it's just a foot in the door to go after other forms of hunting. Most REAL houndsmen are ten times the hunter, and understand game better than any of you so called big stud deer hunters due to the fact that they spend ten times the amount you do in the field learning the behaviors and habits of game, and most love deer hunting and are among the most successful trophy buck hunters out there. When we say the lions are down, their down regardless of how many dog tracks that you think are lion tracks you find, how many dead deer you are certain are lion kills you find, or what ever else you experts can try to blame on them. When guys that actually hunt them 2,3, or more days a week are telling you these things you'd think you would listen. I think we have more of a grasp on the lion pop than joe deer hunter. I, along with many other hound guys will not take joe blow out for a lion for the simple fact that you are out to ruin the sport we love, and have no appreciation for it. I caught a monster tom the other day and will be damned if I'd take anyone to get him other than a hound guy or somone in their family that has earned such a trophy. I could show you cry babies several deer within 30 min. of my house that are close to 30 inches, and a couple over 30. By the way, the lion pictures on this thread are as much of a trophy as a two point buck!


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

LMAO Cold Track. Of course you're right. 

I couldn't count the number of times I've recieved a hot tip about a lion track only to find out it was something else entirely. I've investigated dog tracks, coyote tracks, cross country ski pole tracks, **** tracks, rabbit tracks, squirrel tracks, you name it, if it has a paw or leaves a dent in the snow, somebody is going to think it is a lion and get all worked up. It doesn't take too many of these episodes to conclude that most people have no clue. 

So if you see us houndsmen roll our eyes a bit everytime some deer hunter gets on here telling us about all the lion tracks they are seeing I hope you understand. :O•-:


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> What a bunch of selfish so called hunters we have on here. Lets eliminate the lions to the point that they can't be hunted at all. Look where California is, lions everywhere and the public hunter can't do anything about it because their lion season is gone, GONE! It won't come back, and it's just a foot in the door to go after other forms of hunting. Most REAL houndsmen are ten times the hunter, and understand game better than any of you so called big stud deer hunters due to the fact that they spend ten times the amount you do in the field learning the behaviors and habits of game, and most love deer hunting and are among the most successful trophy buck hunters out there. When we say the lions are down, their down regardless of how many dog tracks that you think are lion tracks you find, how many dead deer you are certain are lion kills you find, or what ever else you experts can try to blame on them. When guys that actually hunt them 2,3, or more days a week are telling you these things you'd think you would listen. I think we have more of a grasp on the lion pop than joe deer hunter. I, along with many other hound guys will not take joe blow out for a lion for the simple fact that you are out to ruin the sport we love, and have no appreciation for it. I caught a monster tom the other day and will be damned if I'd take anyone to get him other than a hound guy or somone in their family that has earned such a trophy. I could show you cry babies several deer within 30 min. of my house that are close to 30 inches, and a couple over 30. By the way, the lion pictures on this thread are as much of a trophy as a two point buck!


There is a lot of emotion is this post. It's true the lion population might be down compared to the good old days like in early 90s where you could easily find several sets of lion tracks. I remember treeing 3 lions in one day. Those were the glory days of lion hunting, but the deer herds suffered because of it.

I have driven up the roads and yes I KNOW what a lion track looks like. :lol: :lol: and I can still find them. I also believe that after a while some lions are getting smart and aren't hanging around the roads as much


----------

