# 2009 SFW Proposed Deer Managent Plan



## 4pointmuley (Sep 18, 2007)

I received this proposal by email. What do you think?

Here is the basics of the SFW Proposed Deer Managent Plan.


1. Based on the DWR survey, and ONE years 2009 deer hunt application,
force hunters to apply for ONE deer unit in 2009, a Hunt A or a Hunt B.
Here are the characteristics of each hunt:


Hunt A. Basically the same hunting experience as today's general season
units. Post season buck doe ratios from 13-17. Keep five general season
units, hunters can expect to draw a tag 4 out of 5 years (all but once
in 5 years), family and recreation style hunts. Dedicated Hunters and
Lifetime license holders could only obtain Hunt A tags. If they want
Hunt B, they forfeit their DH or LT priviledges. Hunters drawing Hunt A
could hunt anywhere in the region they drew - EXCEPT the Hunt B unit by
units within that region.


Hunt B. Post season buck doe ratios 35-40. Managed on a unit by unit
basis. Hunters can Expect to draw a permit ONCE every four or five
years.
When they do, great bucks, uncrowded conditions.



2. After the hunters make the first years choice - 2009, then in 2010,
the DWR then matches the percentage of deer in Each hunt type,
corresponding to the percentage of deer hunters favoring hunt A and Hunt
B.

a. It is not number of deer units, it is number of actual deer.

b. So, if 70% of the hunters choose Hunt A (recreation) and 30% Hunt B
(trophy) then 70% of utahs deer herds would be managed in Hunt A
strategy and 30% in Hunt B.

3. From 2010 to 2015, Hunters would be required to apply for hunts in
Hunt A, or hunt B categories. They could changes regions (from Southern
to North East for example) in hunt A during this five year period, and
they could change individual units in Hunt B, but you could NOT change
from Hunt A to Hunt B during this five year period.


4. The process would be repeated for five years in 2015 - 2020. If for
example it shifted to 60% to 40% Type A and Type B hunters, the DWR
would add 10% more deer to the Type B management program.


5. The Hunt A units and Hunt B units would then be determined. Hunt B
units would probably include Paunsagunt, Henries, Book Cliffs, San Juan,
and then possibly add some Units like Pavant, Beaver, Dutton, Nebo, and
South Cache. (Whatever Number of deer required to get an equal
percentage of deer as percentage of Type B hunters)


6. Some current limited units might be thrown into the Hunt A general
season - Vernon, Thousand Lake, etc.


7. Current Deer bonus points would be converted to preference points.


8. A decision has to be made then about Hunt B units. Could you apply
for just ONE specific unit within Hunt B, or could you apply for
multiple units in order of preference like the Colorado System? This
would have to be determined by the committee as they look more closely.


9. The Hunt B tags will cost probably 5 times as much as Hunt A tags.
The DWR needs a revenue neutral process (you are only getting a tag once
every five years - thus you pay 5 times as much)


10. It will obviously take some time to make the NEW type B units -
Which ever ones are selected - 2-3 years to get some real quality


11. It would seem that those who choose Hunt B for the first five years
- the tough building years - should have some sort of preference or
advantage going into the second five years - once the quality is built,
then more will want to jump on the bandwagon.


12. Statewide Archery COULD be extended for the Hunt A general season
units. If archers want a Type B unit by unit tag, they would have to put
in for such a tag.


13. Make a law so that a Dad could let a youth under 16 to hunt with him
and take a deer on his tag. For Example, my son might choose type A and
hunt every year for a few years. IN year Four of the program, I draw a
Beaver tag in Type B. WE go hunting. I tell the son, if I see a 35
incher, I am pulling the trigger. If on the last few days of the hunt,
we see a nice 28 incher, the son pulls the trigger, and my tag goes on
my sons deer.


Within the type B units, there could be lots of flexibility on season
dates etc, because the harvest will be controlled by the number of tags
issues.
The Beaver unit - if put in Type B could have perhaps an early rifle -
Sept.
15, a MZ hunt in late Sept. a rifle season in late Oct. and maybe a
handful of tags in Mid November.


Once again, I think this proposal meets the DWR criteria. Simple,
Revenue Nuetral, Youth Friendly.


It is fairly simple for Type A hunters, just put in for one of five
regions like NOW, draw probably 4 tags in five years. Family friendly,
lots of opportunity.


For the more serious hunters, it can be more complicated, we are willing
to put in the time and effort to understand the regs, etc. It will cost
more to draw this tag - revenue neutral.


The youth can hunt all three weapons in Type A units. They can go
hunting with Dad on a Trophy unit and see what real hunting is like and
they just might get to blast a pretty big buck on Dad's tag, and if they
are like my son, they will go from just killing a deer, to wanting a BIG
one in short order.


Let me know what else needs to be added to this BASIC proposal.


IN the mean time, the dWR and SFW will do all that we can to fix
habitat, keep predators under control, fence highways, solve
depredation." 


Don


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

This was discussed at length last week on this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8644

But, after reading through there, what do you think?


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## EvenOlderFudd (Jun 18, 2008)

Same Thoughts I had last week.. CRAP!!CRAP!!CRAP!! Get yourself a really good lawyer! Figure everything out.. Empty out your savings and any cash you want to leave your kids..To pay your lawyer. Hope you get a tag before you die'' I'am 63 yr old fart!! Man! any time you get the people involved, that want to get involved,, All I can say is follow the money. in about 5 years.. WHAT? A RICH MANS SPORT.??. Oh I forgot , I can't say that. I only have a High School Education And I'am middle income.. And my skirt gets blowed up real easy...


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## Renegade (Sep 11, 2007)

That reads more like the scientific management of hunters, not the scientific management of wild game animals-which is the only responsibility of state fish & wildlife agencies, even though they are way more interested in managing hunters than the animals.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

it depends on whether you are a real hunter or not......


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## chuckler (Sep 30, 2007)

I truly like the idea of balancing trophy and opportunity hunts to meet demand scientifically through suveys and such.

However, I do think the A/B plan is a gross over-simplification of supplying what the market really wants. At a minimum, I do think you would want several flavors of trophy hunts and several flavors of opportunity hunts in the mix in addition to just general opportunity. 

Personally, I'd rather see something closer to a Colorado approach matched with our draw system. The SWF plan on the table is not what I'd call a major overhaul and is only a partial step, not a big enough step, towards a herd-by-herd management approach.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Renegade said:


> That reads more like the scientific management of hunters, not the scientific management of wild game animals-which is the only responsibility of state fish & wildlife agencies, even though they are way more interested in managing hunters than the animals.


Not true at all. But the fact is that managing hunters is a huge factor in managing wildlife.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

What do you think pro?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

fixed blade said:


> What do you think pro?


I have already voiced my views, but i have to say Don made a huge error with his "real hunter" comment. Then Renegade tries to outdo him with:


> That reads more like the scientific management of hunters, not the scientific management of wild game animals-which is the only responsibility of state fish & wildlife agencies, even though they are way more interested in managing hunters than the animals.


It is the responsibility of the DWR to manage *BOTH *wildlife and those who hunt them, to do one w/o the other would be disastrous for *BOTH*. :?

You want to know what I think? Read my signature at the bottom of every post I make. 8)


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## 3birds (Aug 6, 2008)

I think that the dwr should put any changes up to public vote! don and the gang at(sfw)should mind there own business.we the taxpayers of utah have people hired to make those plans for us.but I am beginning to wonder if the division has a front door anymore? why are we letting special intrest groups make the rules and regulations on when,where,and how frequently we the taxpayers get to hunt our wildlife! looks like a big money plan to me! hmmm hunt once every five years so your will likely cost five times as much?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

3birds said:


> I think that the dwr should put any changes up to public vote! don and the gang at(sfw)should mind there own business.we the taxpayers of utah have people hired to make those plans for us.but I am beginning to wonder if the division has a front door anymore? why are we letting special intrest groups make the rules and regulations on when,where,and how frequently we the taxpayers get to hunt our wildlife! looks like a big money plan to me! hmmm hunt once every five years so your will likely cost five times as much?


To clarify, the DWR DOES have an open door policy. They welcome input/feedback form the public. Also, SFW's proposal is just that, a PROPOSAL. It is one of MANY being kicked around due to the deer plan being redrawn this fall. The committee formed has DWR employees, special interest groups, and joe publics on it. Once this group has settled on a few recommendations, they will be put to the PUBLIC for comment/input, then the Wildlife Board (made up of PUBLIC folks) will decide what to implement. We are NOT "letting" ANY special interest group "make the rules"! :roll:


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

I think his concern is that: yes, they (DWR) welcome feedback/concerns, but whose feedback and concern are most welcome? Does SFW do something to warrant a larger voice? Yes. I think they do. Is the voice of SFW large, maybe too large, in part because of power they shouldn't have been given to begin with. Yes. I think it is. Do they seem like a special interest group with all of that negative connotaion to many sportsmen? Yes. Could they move out of that negative image if they wanted to? Yes. They don't want to, so you should be happy with the power and negative image that is part of the price SFW is more than willing to pay. I find it interesting that some new to posting are coaxed out for this. Welcome to the forum, and keep posting what you think as on this board you are free to say what is important to you. And I'm not implying that you can't be heard at the RAC.


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

The one thing i noticed that made it clear there was the statement about letting the vernon unit go back to the a pool if anyone could see the class of bucks out there they would know that would be a trajic mistake. its apparent to me that there will there may have been some classroom discussions about these units there was very little time actully spent in going out and studing them in the field. you can base a proposed managment plan unless you actully go into the field and take in the whole senario condition of both the wild life and there habitat and once you make a mistake and implement such a plan the side effects are divastating for years to come. and thats just from the wildlife side of thing not even worth mentioning about the effects on the hunters. while there are alot of trophy hunters in our group there is also the opposite side kids wifes elderly hunters who for the most part just like to hunt and enjoy the outdoors me being one of the old forts you start taking time from my end and who know when are if some may be able to hunt at all in the future. as a whole the plan stinks like a week old dead elk in 90 degree temp. again just on man thoughts on the project


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

SteepNDeep said:


> I think his concern is that: yes, they (DWR) welcome feedback/concerns, but whose feedback and concern are most welcome? Does SFW do something to warrant a larger voice? Yes. I think they do. Is the voice of SFW large, maybe too large, in part because of power they shouldn't have been given to begin with. Yes. I think it is. Do they seem like a special interest group with all of that negative connotaion to many sportsmen? Yes. Could they move out of that negative image if they wanted to? Yes. They don't want to, so you should be happy with the power and negative image that is part of the price SFW is more than willing to pay. I find it interesting that some new to posting are coaxed out for this. Welcome to the forum, and keep posting what you think as on this board you are free to say what is important to you. And I'm not implying that you can't be heard at the RAC.


I agree with most of what you say. One thing to consider, SFW/other SI groups get results because they know how to play the 'game', they have discussions with RAC/WB members BEFORE the RAC/WB meetings. They don't just show up and through some idea out there and expect results. Most of the work is done BEFORE the public meetings, and there is NOTHING stopping an individual from doing the same.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

Agreed.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

Personally, and this is just me. But I don't think this proposal will ever see light of day. The reason I say this, is that DWR employees have a hard enough time at their offices dealing with people who don't understand the application process right now. Secondly it would require them to make a 5 year commitment to this plan, and if it turns into a nightmarre after one year, they're kind of screwed. Then there is the enforcement related issues that will come from changing boundaries and having people that "have always hunted here" that are now on a newly adopted "b" unit that became a "b" unit because of the quirky percentage of deer breakdown. The thing that's pissing me off more than anything is the amount of energy that is being wasted on this plan because it is way too hokey, too complicated, and will never get mainstream approval from the hunting community, and will in the end alienate and drive away a lot of hunters.

It's really counteractive to what SFW should be striving for. They SHOULD be trying to do what they can to bolster hunter numbers, and get more people involved, because those new recruits are their target audience and potentially future members. 

Personally this whole thing is irritating me to the point that I very well might cancel my membership to SFW because when I joined i was under the misconception that SFW was a conservation group dedicated to habitat improvement, furthering the sport of hunting etc. Right now I feel like they're just a bunch of elitist pricks that given free reign will just damage the traditions, hunting in general, and drive away future generations to make room for a bunch of stuffy, fat, middle aged guys who need to change the rules to get that big buck, because they can't do it on their own right now. How's them apples Don?


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Mack1950


> The one thing i noticed that made it clear there was the statement about letting the vernon unit go back to the a pool *if anyone could see the class of bucks out there they would know that would be a trajic mistake.* its apparent to me that there will there may have been some classroom discussions about these units there was very little time actully spent in going out and studing them in the field. you can base a proposed managment plan unless you actully go into the field and take in the whole senario condition of both the wild life and there habitat and once you make a mistake and implement such a plan the side effects are divastating for years to come.


The part you and all the other "Limited Opportunity", I mean, Limited Entry guys need to understand is turning a unit back into general season area is not about the average size horn on the mountain it is about increasing the number of available tags (= opportunity) by thousands! And some hard working, lucky hunter/hunters will still take a monster from the area every year.


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

i can understant what your saying but you do not distroy a resorce for the benifit of anyone and i havent hunted the unit in years i just spend alot of time out there monitoring the animals and there progress you open that area up to general hunting preasure can you imaging the amout of hunter s hitting the unit it would be a slaughter worse then the sever river massacre on elk. dont think for a second it wouldnt happen i have seen it happen more time s than i care to recall


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

WasatchOutdoors said:


> Personally, and this is just me. But I don't think this proposal will ever see light of day. The reason I say this, is that DWR employees have a hard enough time at their offices dealing with people who don't understand the application process right now. Secondly it would require them to make a 5 year commitment to this plan, and if it turns into a nightmarre after one year, they're kind of screwed. Then there is the enforcement related issues that will come from changing boundaries and having people that "have always hunted here" that are now on a newly adopted "b" unit that became a "b" unit because of the quirky percentage of deer breakdown. The thing that's **** me off more than anything is the amount of energy that is being wasted on this plan because it is way too hokey, too complicated, and will never get mainstream approval from the hunting community, and will in the end alienate and drive away a lot of hunters.
> 
> It's really counteractive to what SFW should be striving for. They SHOULD be trying to do what they can to bolster hunter numbers, and get more people involved, because those new recruits are their target audience and potentially future members.
> 
> Personally this whole thing is irritating me to the point that I very well might cancel my membership to SFW because when I joined i was under the misconception that SFW was a conservation group dedicated to habitat improvement, furthering the sport of hunting etc. Right now I feel like they're just a bunch of elitist pricks that given free reign will just damage the traditions, hunting in general, and drive away future generations to make room for a bunch of stuffy, fat, middle aged guys who need to change the rules to get that big buck, because they can't do it on their own right now. How's them apples Don?


Wow... way to lay it out there. I mean that honestly... whether I agree with you or not, thats interesting to see what somebody with SFW membership thinks about the plan from the "no thanks" side of things.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

What can I say, usually I'm pretty subdued, but this plan is beyond crap.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> The part you and all the other "Limited Opportunity", I mean, Limited Entry guys need to understand is turning a unit back into general season area is not about the average size horn on the mountain *it is about increasing the number of available tags (= opportunity) by thousands! *And some hard working, lucky hunter/hunters will still take a monster from the area every year.


They use to issue 1,000 tags on the vernon unit and it went downhill. Why do you feel the need to slaughter the deer when the deer herd has never made a really good come back since they closed the unit for 5 years. Sure there is big bucks out there, but the number of deer isnt anywhere near what it use to be. You can't just open a LE unit up to the public and expect the deer to increase or the quality remain the same. The deer arent even at their population objective. The vernon unit needs more habitat projects. The drought has affected the deer. The deer havent lost winter habitat nor have they decreased because of getting hit by cars. They dont have a doe hunt on the unit. The vernon does have problems with coyotes and mountain lions.

Again why do you feel the need to issue thousands of tags to slaughter the deer in just 1 or 2 years and then the unit is just as low quality as other places. We dont need more general season units. They issue around 150 tags for the Vernon unit right now and the quality isn't the best so I wonder how the quality would be with 1,000 tags.

10,000 you just want all LE units to be General Season units and it doesnt matter to you what happens to the overall health of the herd. A little while ago you wanted the Henry Mountains opened up to the public and it would be a nightmare on that unit and the unit would be destroyed in 1 year and then no one wins.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I remember as a kid going scouting with my dad and seeing 20 4 point bucks just in one canyon. I remember seeing 50 to 100 head of deer just in one group and you could see dozens of groups like this from just glassing on one hill side for miles.

Mack can you tell you that the number of deer right now isnt even close to the number of deer in the past.


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## mack1950 (Sep 11, 2007)

the overall numbers are still way down the buck/doe count is high but we know the reasons for that. not only are they still coming back from the drought situation but they also had a bought with black tonque a few years back not to mention that due to the areas remoteness the poaching out there is said to be absolutly horrible to make it short this unit to a three way hit a few years ago and its going to take alot of time to get the herd size as a hole back to were it was back before the limited area became popular. the first year that limited entrys were astablished you couldnt give away a tag no one wanted to hunt were it cost extra bucks. know talkiing to a landowner the tags are going for up to 4 grand if you can get them. that is a heck of a turn around in general hunting perspective. while i cannot hunt there becouse its my choice and im still tring to get a bull take lol its a pure pleasure to be able to go out and vidio some the buck s there. some are really impressive and it looks like as long as its managed right to comback should continue


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Coyote,

First I have to tell you that the guys I used to argue with the most on here, though I still don't see eye to eye all the time, are also the ones I have come to like and respect the most.



> They use to issue 1,000 tags on the vernon unit and it went downhill. *Why do you feel the need to slaughter the deer* when the deer herd has never made a really good come back since they closed the unit for 5 years. Sure there is big bucks out there, but the number of deer isnt anywhere near what it use to be. *You can't just open a LE unit up to the public and expect the deer to increase or the quality remain the same*.


.

First, I don't think anyone expects the quality to remain the same in any area that would be transitioned back into General Season.

Second, I'm no biologist But I thought a buck doe ratio of 15/100 could increase deer population just as fast if not faster than a ratio of 35/100? Is it bucks or does that have fawns? :wink:

Third, I don't really care to much about the Heneries. If it was a GS unit (with deer that reflected thouse of other GS units) I don't think I would hunt there. I have othere places I enjoy. I just know that even for those who do put in for that mountain, MOST will never hunt there.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

10,000 is true that the does produce the fawns, but like I have said before. The vernon unit lacks habitat. Again the deer numbers were 4 times what they are now. The buck population isnt the limiting factor.

Here is the fawn to doe ratio

2003 78/100
2004 75/100
2005 87/100
2006 60/100

As you can see fawns are being born, but due to the drought, predators and the lack of mule deer habitat many fawns arent surviving to adulthood hence the reason the vernon unit hasnt recovered totally after they closed the unit for 5 years.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> And some hard working, lucky hunter/hunters will still take a monster from the area every year.


People do this every year on GS units. I like things more balanced. The average joe hunter doesnt need the whole state GS and the trophy hunters dont need the whole state to be trophy units. I think the division of GS land and LE land in Utah is pretty good right now. We need a happy medium for EVERYONE.


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## brittonpoint (Oct 24, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > And some hard working, lucky hunter/hunters will still take a monster from the area every year.
> 
> 
> People do this every year on GS units. I like things more balanced. The average joe hunter doesnt need the whole state GS and the trophy hunters dont need the whole state to be trophy units. I think the division of GS land and LE land in Utah is pretty good right now. We need a happy medium for EVERYONE.


I agree totally.

The last thing we need to do is more difficult to teach our kids the tradition of hunting.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

I knew when I read SFW proposal I was not going to like it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Greenhead 2 said:


> I knew when I read SFW proposal I was not going to like it.


Strangely, I knew you wouldn't like it as well. :? :wink:


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Its hard to like SFW. Comments like "real hunter" just sour my belly. It really shows that to Don its inches and dollars management that he wants. A real hunter wanting a trophy animal gets off his rear, hikes, scouts, and puts in the time to deserve a trophy. A real hunter is not defined by taking years off to be given the chance to hunt trophy animals by building points and is no more deserving of a trophy than a guy who actually works for his animal.

Someone called it a Hogle Zoo hunt, I couldn't agree more.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

So, when Don defines what a 'real' hunter is it is a travesty, but when YOU define what a 'real' hunter is it is all good. Hypocrisy at it's finest. I say that with having already said I disagree/dislike Don's comment on that. But, for you to do the SAME and act all innocent is nonsensical! That is like saying we should go back to hunting the 'traditional' way, makes NO SENSE! Or, saying we are ruining our hunting 'heritage', whose 'heritage' and from what era? Pure hyperbole.


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## elk_horn (Aug 6, 2008)

The SFW Prposal stinks... there is no way you can depend on a B permit every 5years... we dont want another once in a lifetime permit!


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Pro, when you get out from under Don's desk I think you might understand?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Greenhead 2 said:


> Pro, when you get out from under Don's desk I think you might understand?


Atta boy! Way to 'show me' the light. :roll: Typical gh2 action. |-O-|


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Hello kettle!! Pro there will never be anything resembling light that someone can show you. You bully you're way all over this forum. There is not even a "agree to disagree clause with you! The majority believe this plan sucks, but like a jahovahs witness you keep banging the door to rightiousness and the SFW way.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

This is funny! Under Don's desk? Touche'! Correct me if I'm wrong, But you don't love the plan either, right Bart?

It's always entertaining when you two get into it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> This is funny! Under Don's desk? Touche'! Correct me if I'm wrong, But you don't love the plan either, right Bart?
> 
> It's always entertaining when you two get into it.


You are correct Tye, and if gh2 would pull his head out his piehole long enough to actually read my posts on this subject he would know I dislike MOST of the SFW propsal. :?


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Pro, where did I make this about you and I?? Where did I write about how you felt about this idea? I said nothing to you, you came at me! I said DON not PRO Showed his feelings and thoughts on public Joe hunter and GS opportunity. I knew you would be the first to respond to me, Mr predictable!


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Greenhead 2 said:


> Pro, when you get out from under Don's desk I think you might understand?


Ring a bell? :roll:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Hey, you have to give him credit for being funny. :lol:


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

So it was after you came at me, right? It was after the mighty pro opened his pie hole correct? Talk about hypocrisy. Yes pro I think anyone who like don refers to a trophy hunter as real hunters, and in that same statement belittles hunters and animals that are non-trophy disgusting and not a real hunter IMO. To make the hunter and hunting experience teeter on antler size is what will be the demise of hunting.


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## brittonpoint (Oct 24, 2007)

SFW has lost touch what hunting is about.

It's about the experience and time with family and friends.

NOT how the size of antlers increases ego.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Greenhead 2 said:


> So it was after you came at me, right? It was after the mighty pro opened his pie hole correct? Talk about hypocrisy. Yes pro I think anyone who like don refers to a trophy hunter as real hunters, and in that same statement belittles hunters and animals that are non-trophy disgusting and not a real hunter IMO. To make the hunter and hunting experience teeter on antler size is what will be the demise of hunting.


So, you are so sensitive that me saying I knew where you stood on this issue before you posted it was me "coming after you"? Are you serious? I know 5 year old GIRLS with more sac than that. How sad. 

Back to the "demise" of hunting again. That is nothing more than the "sky is falling" bumper sticker mantra. :roll:


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## USMARINEhuntinfool (Sep 15, 2007)

Now now we all need to get along theres 2 sides to hunting theres the oppertunity and just getting out for the enjoyment side and theres the antler size and trophy side hunting wont survive with out both if you teeter to far one way or the other hunting as its known today will be at its demise its a balancing act the question is how long will we stay on the rope before it all comes tumbling down?....


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Greenhead 2 said:
> 
> 
> > So it was after you came at me, right? It was after the mighty pro opened his pie hole correct? Talk about hypocrisy. Yes pro I think anyone who like don refers to a trophy hunter as real hunters, and in that same statement belittles hunters and animals that are non-trophy disgusting and not a real hunter IMO. To make the hunter and hunting experience teeter on antler size is what will be the demise of hunting.
> ...


No I am sure you knew exactly how I felt about that. Pointing things out to you is like trying to tell my four year old neighbor to watch out for horse manure, he looks at it swings around still not seeing it walks threw it and still does not get it. :roll:

I think it is much more than the sky is falling, look how hunting and the opportunity to hunt has changed over the last 30yrs, I think its more than a mantra :roll:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Greenhead 2 said:


> No I am sure you knew exactly how I felt about that. Pointing things out to you is like trying to tell my four year old neighbor to watch out for horse manure, he looks at it swings around still not seeing it walks threw it and still does not get it. :roll:
> 
> I think it is much more than the sky is falling, look how hunting and the opportunity to hunt has changed over the last 30yrs, I think its more than a mantra :roll:


I'll give you one thing, you are quite the comic. You offer little to ANY thread other than comedy.

You make mention of the last 30 years in response to saying SFW is leading to the 'demise' of hunting. That implies that SFW is the primary cause of the 'demise' of hunting, which is inane. Did you know that hunting is under the SAME 'duress' in states that does not have SFW's presence? How can that be when SFW is leading us all down a path leading to the end of hunting "as we know/knew it". Strange power this SFW gang has over folks. Scary, scary, scary. :?


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

> Did you know that hunting is under the SAME 'duress' in states that does not have SFW's presence? How can that be when SFW is leading us all down a path leading to the end of hunting "as we know/knew it". Strange power this SFW gang has over folks. Scary, scary, scary. :?


Let me know if any of these statements are unfair.

-Most states have similar conservation groups like SFW.

-Most (almost all) conservation groups both in and out of Utah push trophy management and LE hunting. (now be honest with yourself in answering this one)

-LE hunting (though quality) allows the *least* amount of hunters to hunt.

-GS hunting (though more challenging but still having some quality) allows the *maximum* number of hunters to hunt.

- In order to create or grow LE "opportunities" you have to take away hunting opportunity from hundreds of other hunters who used to or would like to hunt said area as a general season unit.

- Record book animals have been taken from GS ground and continue to be taken from GS ground.

and the last statement just to throw some gas on the fire

- LE hunting (for most hunters) requires less skill, work, hiking and prior scouting to successfuly tag a mature buck or bull.

With all that being said I put in for LE elk. I do because I can and wish that I couldn't because I choose to hunt the general season EVERY YEAR.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

10000ft. said:


> Let me know if any of these statements are unfair.
> 
> -Most states have similar conservation groups like SFW.
> 
> ...


One of the ideas being kicked around is making it so if you apply for a LE tag you can NOT apply for a GS tag. That is one part of the SFW proposal I like.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Fair enough responses PRO, I know almost nothing of SFW and other conservation groups, that in part is why I asked if my perception was fair or not. 

Like you, I am fine with the idea of not being able to put in for LE in the same year I apply for a GS tag if that would ensure I could draw a GS tag every year.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

10,000, I hope you do realize that not ALL hunters like the GS units and many feel these units aren't being properly managed. Many people even look forward hunting places which have a higher buck to doe ratio then your average GS unit. You like the GS units, but NOT everyone thinks like you do. We limit hunting opportunities in LE units, but people get the chance to participate in a better quality hunt then what they're normally experience.

Maybe we could give out 500,000 tags for spears and knifes. :lol: :lol:


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## 4x4 Bronco (Sep 7, 2007)

[quote="proutdoors]So, you are so sensitive that me saying I knew where you stood on this issue before you posted it was me "coming after you"? Are you serious? I know 5 year old GIRLS with more sac than that. How sad. 

[/quote]

Pro,
Are you having one of those getting jolts from phone wires frequently today? Just curious


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

Coyote


> *We limit hunting opportunities *in LE units, but people get the chance to participate in a better quality hunt then what they're normally experience.


And that is where I have the problem, you are willing to tell others "you can't get a tag and go hunting every year so I can hunt every 5-20 years on a unit with higher buck to doe or bull to cow ratios.

It doesn't seem right.

It is not that I love the buck to do ratios on General Season units or that I love the lower number of mature bucks, its that I love to hunt every year with my family. I would rather give up Christmas Easter and my Birthday than miss our annual outing out on the deer hunt.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Greenhead 2 said:
> 
> 
> > No I am sure you knew exactly how I felt about that. Pointing things out to you is like trying to tell my four year old neighbor to watch out for horse manure, he looks at it swings around still not seeing it walks threw it and still does not get it. :roll:
> ...


Nope now yer just making stuff up and putting words on my screen. I don't completely blame SFW :shock: At one time a long long long time ago I even agreed with Don :shock: But I think they saw the golden goose in our wildlife. Nobody can argue that trophy animals are big big money and many are in the soup line with their hand out looking to profit from our animals. SFW just to me seems to have the biggest hand with the biggest hole in their belly. IMO they have lost site of their original "dream" and instead of helping wildlife and ALL hunters they have turned their hands to the biggest bidder and the collection plate. This is their meat and potato's , like any special interest group they are catering to the ones who keep them fed.

CS, I agree that the GS areas are not being managed properly, But there is no profit in GS deer areas, except for elk, elk that are doing very well and as TAK said for one area "eating the deer" When these groups figure out how to make big money from GS areas I guarantee you will see better management.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

4x4 Bronco said:


> Pro,
> Are you having one of those getting jolts from phone wires frequently today? Just curious


HEY! Keep it down over there. :evil:

10000ft, I think what slayer is trying to point out is that you are wanting everyone to comply with *your* type of hunting, just slayer is trying to do the same. I guess it depends which side of the meadow you are standing on. 8)


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> And that is where I have the problem, you are willing to tell others "you can't get a tag and go hunting every year so I can hunt every 5-20 years on a unit with higher buck to doe or bull to cow ratios.
> 
> It doesn't seem right.


Like I said before everyone has a different hunting style and we shouldn't just cater to one type of hunting. LE units have a very good reason to exist just like GS units have a place. We don't need to manage everything for maximum production.



> It is not that I love the buck to do ratios on General Season units or that I love the lower number of mature bucks, its that I love to hunt every year with my family. I would rather give up Christmas Easter and my Birthday than miss our annual outing out on the deer hunt.


You get to hunt with your family right now.

BTW there are still tags being sold. This gives you one more opportunity to hunt with your family.

Spike Bull Elk 5,853 
Any Bull Elk 5,718

Again 10,000 LE units aren't the problem, the problem is HABITAT. If you increase habitat then you can grow more deer.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Man this is the funniest ****ing tread I've read in a long time. Pro and gh2's witty banter is all I need in life. Keep up the good work you two!  


Get him pro.


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## 10000ft. (Oct 29, 2007)

> 10000ft, I think what slayer is trying to point out is that you are wanting everyone to comply with your type of hunting, just slayer is trying to do the same. I guess it depends which side of the meadow you are standing on.


The major difrence I see Pro is my "type" of hunting does not keep you from being able to hunt in any given year. Your type of hunting is more and more leaving people with "unsuccessful" draws on the GS.

I also think it is unfair to classify GS or LE as "types" or "styles" of hunting. To me a type of hunting is archery, rifle or muzzleloader and a style would be doing a drive, tree stand hunting, spot and stalk... . On both GS and LE hunts trophy animals can be persued. One just dramaticaly restricts the number of tags availabe to the public.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

10000ft. said:


> I also think it is unfair to classify GS or LE as "types" or "styles" of hunting. To me a type of hunting is archery, rifle or muzzleloader and a style would be doing a drive, tree stand hunting, spot and stalk... . On both GS and LE hunts trophy animals can be persued. One just dramaticaly restricts the number of tags availabe to the public.


Alright, then let's open the tags to unlimited, that way we aren't 'restricting' tag numbers and thus not 'restricting' opportunity. Where we draw the line is based on what we decide is a high enough buck:doe ratio. The 15-20:100 ratio we manage the GS to is for HUNTERS not for the deer. Some areas have the 35:100 ratio objective because that is what a good percentage of hunters in Utah WANT. That is why I have the tag line I do at the bottom of my posts. We MUST manage for ALL types/preferences, not just yours/mine. That is what we MUST strive for if we are serious about maximizing hunter recruitment. If we were to just manage the deer and forget about the hunters we would have a very different management plan than what is in place now, and much different than the new plan that will put in place this fall. We have to manage the deer AND the hunter, not just one of them.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

> You make mention of the last 30 years in response to saying SFW is leading to the 'demise' of hunting. That implies that SFW is the primary cause of the 'demise' of hunting, which is inane. Did you know that hunting is under the SAME 'duress' in states that does not have SFW's presence? How can that be when SFW is leading us all down a path leading to the end of hunting "as we know/knew it". Strange power this SFW gang has over folks. Scary, scary, scary.


Actually Pro, I think I'm the one with the biggest problem with the SFW gang.

First off, because this proposal, while maybe it was well intended, really misses the mark, offers little compromise for the regular everyday hunters, and in general wasn't a really well thought out plan. It required a 5 year commitment that requires applicants to to do the hokey pokey dance, and will create a ton of confusion for a lot of people uneccesarily, and then again after 3 years when the DWR decides that this plan is bull**** and abandons it.

Secondly because it really does reduce opportunity, and while yes, you're right, other states are growing more and more to be limited in opportunity, SFW is blindly leading the charge down the exact same alley. Maybe Don and the gang should take a half a second and think long term, because if there'a a lot less hunters in utah, there's sure as heck going to be a lot less people willing to contribute to SFW in the long run. I don't think they're causing the demise of hunting, I just think they're pushing for their own greedy reasons, and more focus on what the "real Hunters" want

And third and last, as a paying member of SFW I'll be honest to tell you that I resent the hell out of the fact that SFW would offer up such a proposal without first figuring out what their members want. I sure as hell don't remember anyone from SFW asking me what my thoughts were, even though I'm one of the folks footing the bill. And then to back it up with the "real Hunter" comment, yeah, that's real nice.

I really feel like this whole debate is more and more about finance and pride, and has very little if any roots in biology. I think that there needs to be a lot more focus on dwindling habitat, how to slow the loss and maximize the resource for the good of the herds, and a whole lot less focus on the future of horn porn.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

WasatchOutdoors said:


> And third and last, as a paying member of SFW I'll be honest to tell you that I resent the hell out of the fact that SFW would offer up such a proposal without first figuring out what their members want. I sure as hell don't remember anyone from SFW asking me what my thoughts were, even though I'm one of the folks footing the bill. And then to back it up with the "real Hunter" comment, yeah, that's real nice.
> 
> I really feel like this whole debate is more and more about finance and pride, and has very little if any roots in biology. I think that there needs to be a lot more focus on dwindling habitat, how to slow the loss and maximize the resource for the good of the herds, and a whole lot less focus on the future of horn porn.


Actually, SFW had a poll on it's website for over a month asking for feedback from SFW members. If you didn't participate, how is that their fault? The proposal they put forth was a DIRECT result of that survey. While I dislike more than I like about it, to say they did it w/o input from the members is simply FALSE! I truly believe the "real hunter" comment was a bonehead thing to say.

I get into some great discussions with SFW Board members and the Founder himself on this and other issues. While we disagree on certain specifics, I have no reason to question their passion and willingness to improve hunting for ALL hunters. It is easy to sit in the background and second guess the things being put forth, but the bottom line for me is who is out doing SOMETHING and who is sitting around pointing fingers at those doing the work? If you are doing the work, thank you. If not, do you feel you have a right to complain/question the motives of those doing the work? I am a firm believer in if you are not willing to get in the game don't complain about the final score.

I know most of these men very well, and consider most of them friends, so when I hear/read people blasting people they likely have never met or talked with is childish IMO! I am not directing this rant at you Wasatch, but to the whiners in general. Get off your butt and get in the game or don't complain!


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> I know most of these men very well, and consider most of them friends, so when I hear/read people blasting people they likely have never met or talked with is childish IMO! I am not directing this rant at you Wasatch, but to the whiners in general. Get off your butt and get in the game or don't complain!


It is ideas like this that will drive people out of the sport. Not all people have the time or desire to put in the time that you are asking of them. Yet you say if they want to play then they need to do just that. They would reather not play then do what you ask.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Pro, the guys sitting on the sidelines are the majority of hunters, the same majority that is against this proposal and anyother that takes away from their opportunity!

Do they have a right to complain and point fingers?? **** right they do, without them how would you fund habitat or anything wildlife related?? I promise you SFW couldn't do it alone.

The attitude that YOU deserve more because you are involved in a committee is BS. Its not like they call everyone who has ever bought a tag and invited them to be involved. That survey they sent out, I never got but from what I heard it did not offer a place to give your own idea? So how are they to be involved? RACs are usually a 150-200 miles away from our area, are you driving to them all?

Take away more opportunity and hunter recruitment will drop significantly. They fund wildlife they are the majority, yes they can point fingers and complain. We pay for taxes to fund and pay salaries for the DWR who is in charge of our wildlife.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

weatherby25 said:


> It is ideas like this that will drive people out of the sport. Not all people have the time or desire to put in the time that you are asking of them. Yet you say if they want to play then they need to do just that. They would reather not play then do what you ask.


Everyone has the same amount of 'time', the only thing different is how/where they use that time. How *you* prioritize your time is what dictates where it is spent. If you feel strong enough about an issue you will MAKE the time, if you don't you won't have the time. If there is an issue going on in your city, you can get involved, go to the city council meeting(s), write letters to the editor of the local paper, *or* you can stay home and then complain they didn't follow your wishes. Same goes for wildlife related issues, you can go to the RAC's, send e-mail to the DWR, talk w/fellow sportsmen and come up with a game plan, *or* you can sit on the internet and complain your voice wasn't heard. The choice is up to *you*. If you "don't want to play" then don't complain about the "final score".

gh2, I have NEVER said I 'deserve' more. I am saying if I am out there getting in the game, I have a say in the outcome. But if you sit on the sidelines you DON'T. That is not unique to hunting, 5% of the population do 95% of the work in politics, conservation, business. That is a FACT, and if YOU choose to not get in the game, then you have little say in the outcome. I have no doubt this will go right over your head, but the FACTS are the FACTS, which are those who SHOW UP have a voice, and those who sit on their hands have no/little voice. To expect anything otherwise is nonsensical.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

That 5% also works things to their advantage in most cases, not the majority of who voted them in or pays their wages ect... Follow the money and that's the voice they hear.

I have been to RAC meetings, your voice is not heard unless its in that 5%. Finn wrote that out of that survey the response was not the best,why? Because maybe they didn't like the options???? I think that was their voice.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

If you just show up the RAc's w/o anything to support your stance, and this is the first time the RAC members have heard your point of view while they have had the other sides viewpoint for days/weeks, of course your view won't carry much water. Now, when you are speaking for yourself and not for an organized group, your lone voice should NOT hold as much credence. The RAC members do NOT get paid, so what money is there to follow? :? 

In your hometown there are certain people whose voices carry more weight than others, some due to 'money' as you say, others due to proven track records, others due to SHOWING up more than once every 5 years. Packout is an individual who can/does stand up and his voice carries more than yours would. That is because he has EARNED the respect of the RAC/WB members over several years of involvement. I witnessed firsthand him standing up at the WB and getting the 'elk management tag' policy changed making those who draw losing their points. That was 100% because Packout showed up, stood up, and spoke up! Don't tell me it can't be done. _(O)_


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Everyone has the same amount of 'time', the only thing different is how/where they use that time. How you prioritize your time is what dictates where it is spent. If you feel strong enough about an issue you will MAKE the time, if you don't you won't have the time. If there is an issue going on in your city, you can get involved, go to the city council meeting(s), write letters to the editor of the local paper, or you can stay home and then complain they didn't follow your wishes. Same goes for wildlife related issues, you can go to the RAC's, send e-mail to the DWR, talk w/fellow sportsmen and come up with a game plan, or you can sit on the internet and complain your voice wasn't heard. The choice is up to you. If you "don't want to play" then don't complain about the "final score".


 :lol: :lol: I knew you was going to say that exact thing.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Don't tell me it can't be done


Sure it can be done, but at what cost??? Sometimes that cost outways even the strongest of view points.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

The money part went over your head apparently? It had nothing to do with the RAC members. The groups like you say are the ones heard the majority of the time. Packout was that bright star among thousands not heard. I feel a single voice in these situations should be heard and considered just like any group is. Its our animals not a particular group.


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## JimmyPage (Aug 7, 2008)

Just wondering - is this forum the Utahwildlife forum or the Proutdoors/Coyoteslayer forum? Seems like the inmates have taken over the asylum while the mods just sit back and let those two take over - sorta like the old DWR forum. People didn't want to post because of what was probably going to come from the keyboards of Pro and Coyoteslayer.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

JimmyPage said:


> Just wondering - is this forum the Utahwildlife forum or the Proutdoors/Coyoteslayer forum? Seems like the inmates have taken over the asylum while the mods just sit back and let those two take over - sorta like the old DWR forum. People didn't want to post because of what was probably going to come from the keyboards of Pro and Coyoteslayer.


It's MY forum. *OOO*


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> It's MY forum.


I thought MM was yours??? Got to leave some for the rest of us.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

you kill me PRO...


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## neckcollar (Dec 30, 2007)

-oOo- -oOo- What a fight pro is putting up for sfw. Just curious to how much this really benifits you pro. If you want to increase deer numbers and the quality of bucks, then just shut down the hunts for a couple years. It worked on the books and the henerys. Then just allow people to keep putting in on the LE hunts for revenue. Maybe give out a few more elk tags so people dont give up hunting altogether. I think your heart is in the right place, but the "cost" of what you propose is just plan crap.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

MR. PAGE BEST FIRST POST EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Welcome aboard, NICE OBSERVATION.

PRO , Dont take this wrong, I'd like to meet you sometime, BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT..
This is NOT YOUR FORUM! and YOTE gets away with way to many OUT OF LINE posts.

Come on MODs , Dont let what could be a very good forum go down hill DUE to 2 INMATES


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

WasatchOutdoors said:


> you kill me PRO...


 -()/- Folks take themselves WAY to serious on the internet.

Goofy, you had your chance to meet up, and we missed each other. Maybe another day. 8)

neckcollar, shutting down areas will help quality, but will do little for quantity. In the meantime the lost revenue to the state, and the lost recruitment of hunters would be HUGE! I will say it one more time, I do NOT like most of the SFW proposal, I like much MORE of Tony Abbotts proposal. How I 'profit' from it is knowing my kids will have the option to still hunt when they are of age. :?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Oh an goofy, it IS my forum! I own you! -/O\- _O\


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

> How I 'profit' from it is knowing my kids will have the option to still hunt when they are of age.


Just when I think I've got you all figured out, you offer up a gem like that. Well put Pro!

And yeah, you're right. People do take it too seriously. It's real easy to get all worked up and let it all out when you have the anonymity of the internet.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Pro , What mountain did we miss each other on?? I dont remember a time or date.

AND if you OWN me, well then its your fault I'm gettin OLD and OUT OF SHAPE!!
Now I can blame it on YOU..........


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Just wondering - is this forum the Utahwildlife forum or the Proutdoors/Coyoteslayer forum? Seems like the inmates have taken over the asylum while the mods just sit back and let those two take over - sorta like the old DWR forum. People didn't want to post because of what was probably going to come from the keyboards of Pro and Coyoteslayer.


 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: /**|**\ /**|**\ Yes im a very bad MAN!!!!



> and YOTE gets away with way to many OUT OF LINE posts.
> 
> Come on MODs , Dont let what could be a very good forum go down hill DUE to 2 INMATES


Goofy I never meant to get personal with you. I just call things the way I see them and when you say the Nebo peaked out in 2001 then I just had to call you on the BS. You stated your opinion and I posted my opinion so how in the heck is that out of line. This is a discussion forum.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Pro , What mountain did we miss each other on?? I dont remember a time or date.
> 
> AND if you OWN me, well then its your fault I'm gettin OLD and OUT OF SHAPE!!
> Now I can blame it on YOU..........


I have now disowned you. I am old...er, and out of shape myself, I don't need to be dragging your dead weight around. :mrgreen:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I have now disowned you. I am old...er, and out of shape myself, I don't need to be dragging your dead weight around.


Well just make sure that you use the gutless method on the spider bull so you don't die on the mountain. Wapiti67 and Call ofthewild better bring a deer cart.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> Well just make sure that you use the gutless method on the spider bull so you don't die on the mountain.


Don't be worrying about that. Spikes are just baby elk.

So now the truth comes out Pro has always know where the spider bull is as the crew is pushing it down to dutton for him. That explains why people are not seeing it any more as it is not there to be seen.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well I guess I'll just have to get along being "Disowned"

And as I APPROACH 50, This morning I watched 19 Bull's and set another tree stand


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> So now the truth comes out Pro has always know where the spider bull is as the crew is pushing it down to dutton for him. That explains why people are not seeing it any more as it is not there to be seen.


He knows where this bull is........



> This morning I watched 19 Bull's and set another tree stand


Was that on the Utah downhill unit?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Goofy, you're right about one thing... When a guy hikes to the top of Nebo then he can say *"its all downhill from here."*


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

NOPE , On the Wasatch this year from 8/15 Thru 9/23


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Well don't be falling out of any treestands and dont let Johnny sneakums leave you any presents.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Jimmy, GH2 ( where the hell ya been??) and others don't let these two creampuff's get to you.

I do have a certain amount of respect for PRO, I give him crap for being an obedient sheep most of the time and following either good old conservative or SFW party lines without question. I have enjoyed his responses back at the people like myself and others that are quick to crucify anything SFW just because those three evil letters are put together in succession. GUILTY!!!! Don't get me wrong SFW will still be the end of hunting as we know it
if they keep up with "real hunting" and " letting Jr. shoot a buck on Dads tag" I mean what "real hunter" would even think of dropping the string or pulling the trigger on a 28 inch dink???

Now CS... Thats a whole differeent kettle of fish there!! I think PRO has to flip the "party" end of his MULLET to one side so CS can perch on his shoulder like a good parrot does.

I will say this, I could give a rats behind what any of us want!!! "real hunters" opportunists
bowhunters smokepolers or smokeless burners. This ain't about US!! This is about one thing MULE DEER!! When will this be understood?!?! When will we start thinking about what is best BIOLOGICALLY FOR OUR HERDS instead of trying to grab tags, close area's or ensure opportunity?!?! What the hell is the point of this whole committee??? Is it so the tag whores can set up more private hunting preserves?? Is it so the opportunists can make **** sure that they get a tag every year??? Is it so we can grow a 300 inch mule deer?? **** I'm stupid I thought the whole point of this deal was for the deer!!!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Now CS... Thats a whole differeent kettle of fish there!! I think PRO has to flip the "party" end of his MULLET to one side so CS can perch on his shoulder like a good parrot does.


 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I'm no ones Parrot Gordy. We just think alike on a lot of issues.



> I will say this, I could give a rats behind what any of us want!!! "real hunters" opportunists
> bowhunters smokepolers or smokeless burners. This ain't about US!! This is about one thing MULE DEER!! When will this be understood?!?! When will we start thinking about what is best BIOLOGICALLY FOR OUR HERDS instead of trying to grab tags, close area's or ensure opportunity?!?! What the hell is the point of this whole committee??? Is it so the tag whores can set up more private hunting preserves?? Is it so the opportunists can make **** sure that they get a tag every year??? Is it so we can grow a 300 inch mule deer?? ***** I'm stupid *I thought the whole point of this deal was for the deer!!!


Its about our deer herds and managing for quality and quantity.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

AWESOME!!!!


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

:lol: o-||


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

No popcorn needed young Joseph. I've made my point, it is hard to argue with BIOLOGICAL MANAGEMENT.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> No popcorn needed young Joseph. I've made my point, it is hard to argue with BIOLOGICAL MANAGEMENT.


Gordy what his your defination of biological management. I know you can spell the word, but tell me if you were the boss then how would you run the show.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

DAMM WILEY,
Would"nt that be somthing if everyone just used a little COMMON SENSE

Solid deer "BIOLOGICAL MANAGMENT" Imagine that


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> DAMM WILEY,
> Would"nt that be somthing if everyone just used a little COMMON SENSE
> 
> Solid deer "BIOLOGICAL MANAGMENT" Imagine that


Well you wouldnt like it because you already think places are overcrowded and units have already peaked out and they dont even issue enough tags for that unit.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

CS, Biological management would entail, and I am going to type this real real slow so you can wrap your little PRO parrot mind around it. Are you ready?? Here it goes, what is good for mule deer, the habitat they occupy, and the overall ecosystem that depends on our herds.

Wow!! I know!!! no buck to doe ratio's!!! no age class!!! And can you believe it?? No additional closures or opportunity unless it is reccomended by a PRO BIOLOGIST!!!

If a herd is in trouble like the Cache area reduce opportunity or success to help out. If biology tells us that 35 bucks to 100 does is more than enough to get the job done increase opportunity. 

Quit trying to reduce opportunity, mess with science and make money with inch management
where science and biology tells you it is not necessary.

Ask youself one question before you think of a wildlife plan. Is it good for wildlife or is it good for CS???


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> CS, Biological management would entail, and I am going to type this real real slow so you can wrap your little PRO parrot mind around it. Are you ready?? Here it goes, what is good for mule deer, the habitat they occupy, and the overall ecosystem that depends on our herds.
> 
> Wow!! I know!!! no buck to doe ratio's!!! no age class!!! And can you believe it?? No additional closures or opportunity unless it is reccomended by a PRO BIOLOGIST!!!
> 
> ...


I'm going to type this for you really sslllllooowwwww. :lol: :lol: The plan also has to be good for CS because Im the consumer. Also if you don't realize it or not then restoring habitat costs money.

So if you dont have buck to doe ratios then how are you even going to manage deer? When will you know when to increase tags or decrease tags if you dont care about ratios. Are you even going to count deer?

What is wrong with trophy hunting? If you dont like it then that doesnt mean everyone shouldnt like it. Hunters won't be happy. The DWR has 15/100 buck to doe ratios and that more than enough bucks to biologically breed does. Maybe you would manage 5/100 buck to doe ratios. Oh wait you arent even going to do that.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Are you even going to manage predators?


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wiley, you know I love you and all, but you miss the boat EVERY time on this. In today's world you can NOT "just manage the deer", you MUST also manage the hunters. To ignore the hunters will ensure lower recruitment of new hunters, which will lead to less hunting opportunity. You sound like some pinhead politician who thinks we should not worry about the rest of the world and live in isolation, it sounds good in theory but falls on it's face in application. If we were to focus on the deer/elk herds and ignore the hunters, where would the funding come from to improve habitat, fight the wolf movement, slow/stop development, control predators, etc? Truth is, it is hunters who fund the necessary programs to sustain/grow deer/elk/moose/bighorns/turkeys/goats. Name ONE state that "just worries about the herd", just ONE. Your Utopia does NOT exist nor can it in today's world. The new deer management plan will hopefully put the deer first, opportunity second, and quality way in the back on MOST parts of the state. This is NOT DisneyLand, and Bambi is NOT real, deal with it.

FYI, I have openly stated that I do NOT like most of SFW's proposal, so how is that me being a good 'soldier'? :? As for slayer being little more than a parrot, I dare say he puts MORE thought into these type of issues than 95+% of the people commenting on here. And *I KNOW* he SHOWS UP and is willing to get 'in the game' more than 99.99% of those calling him out. Give credit where credit is due, the man has/does put his money where is mouth is, regardless of whether you agree with him or not. He has helped MORE disabled hunters have the OPPORTUNITY to hunt than the rest of us on here combined! Calling someone names is easy, and accomplishes NOTHING. I expect better from you Gordy.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

CS, Dude!! I'm wasting my limited typing skills. I won't convince you of squat. I would only ask you what matters more... Your need to be a consumer of mule deer or the mule deer 
themselves?? 

I could give a rats ass less as to how wildlife is counted as long as the carrying capacity of the range is not overused. All the zillions and cajillions of dollars that SFW puts on the ground 
( or so they say think matching funds ) can be undone in the matter of a few days with a fire or drought over a longer period. Dude Nature always wins. 

Yep I am 100% against trophy hunting. Look at the Bull down south and the firestorm surrounding it. Look at what SFW is proposing for "real hunters". Look what the majority of not only hunters but non hunters think of trophy hunting. These non hunters, 80% of society that vote, influence politicians, pay taxes and ultimately decide how and if you and I get to hunt, think of trophy hunting. They hate it!!! Hunters are a management tool used to keep wildlife 
in a healthy balance in their eye's. Remember the dude that BYU sent to Africa to kill a rhino last year and the **** storm that created?? Once you sway that scale with inch obsession and limiting opportunity you will turn that 80% against you and since you have so limited hunting opportunity to the point of zero hunter recruitment you will have no one to help you fight to keep your hunting privliges.

PRO CS needs a little **** so I called him a parrot, I am not here to live up to yours or anyone
else's expecatations All I ask is to think of our herds first and inches second


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## JimmyPage (Aug 7, 2008)

No conservation group should stick their nose into wildlife management - zero, nada, zip...none. Plain enough for Pro and CS? How about we invite the Sierra Club to write up a proposal and present it. Pro - your head would spin and you'd jump up and down screaming NO NO NO. But yet, SFW - a conservation group makes a proposal and you defend EVERYTHING - well most everything - about it and then mock those that are contrary to you. 

And then there is CS - the poor guy doesn't know biology from geneology. One day you might want to get figure out the difference and realize that herd management needs to have biological data to back it up and prove it's point without the emotion, opinion, etc... or else it doesn't matter.

Hogan - gotta love you JOEY! :mrgreen:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> No conservation group should stick their nose into wildlife management - zero, nada, zip...none. Plain enough for Pro and CS? How about we invite the Sierra Club to write up a proposal and present it. Pro - your head would spin and you'd jump up and down screaming NO NO NO. But yet, SFW - a conservation group makes a proposal and you defend EVERYTHING - well most everything - about it and then mock those that are contrary to you.
> 
> And then there is CS - the poor guy doesn't know biology from geneology. One day you might want to get figure out the difference and realize that herd management needs to have biological data to back it up and prove it's point without the emotion, opinion, etc... or else it doesn't matter.
> 
> Hogan - gotta love you JOEY!


Sounds you're pretty clueless and no wonder why you and your loser friends were to scared to post a message. Especially when you come up with nonsense like this. You are more in favor of PETA managing wildlife.

Thanks for the laughs JimmyPage :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## JimmyPage (Aug 7, 2008)

Wow - what a very well thought out, intelligent post! My hat is off to you - you have my vote for class president :wink: 

CS - your comments make you look foolish.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

PRO I agree with the be vocal part of your post 100%. I have a tremendous amount of respect for CS. To be in his position and ask for nothing and still get out and hunt and enjoy the outdoors is more manly that you or I could ever hope to be. I am pretty sure that he would expect nothing less than the grief I give him because he is from the "dark side" of 
inch obsession just like you.

Once you two get your **** heads on straight and quit trying to push a rope you will do 
more good than you know


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> PRO CS needs a little **** so I called him a parrot, I am not here to live up to yours or anyone
> else's expecatations All I ask is to think of our herds first and inches second


You're a Hypocrite because you want other people to live up to YOUR expectations. Thinking about herds and inches is where you balance the opportunity for both trophy hunters and Opportunity hunters.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Wow - what a very well thought out, intelligent post! My hat is off to you - you have my vote for class president
> 
> CS - your comments make you look foolish.


I dont know who licked your lollipop today son but its funny that all your posts have been directed towards Pro and I :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Maybe you had nightmares and you are finally coming out of the closet.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

If I am a hypocrite for wanting herds managed up to my expecataions of doing what is best for our herds then so be it. Have you heard me ask for anything more than what is best for our herds?? I can't type any slower CS try and follow along.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Now you like talking down to me. Don't you think I want what is best for wildlife???? Think about it. We need habitat and we need money for habitat. Without it then we wont even have a deer herd. Without hunters we wont even have a deer herd. 

Gordy until you realize that SFW, MDF, RME and trophy hunters aren't the problem then you will remain lost in a fairytale world.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

CS yep because when these groups propose not only a severly limited entry type of system, 
tell us that only real hunting is trophy hunting and then want to go with a party hunting system because dad cant bring himself to lower his standards to dropping the hammer on a lowly 28 inch buck. Now you are going to tell me that I am the one with the problem??? Dang homey what is it going to take??? 

FYI I volunteer for 2 of the 3 groups mentioned. Unlike the other group that I don't volunteer for they are flabbergasted that the proposal from SFW has even seen the light of day.


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## JimmyPage (Aug 7, 2008)

CS - your biggest probelm is that you can't differentiate between a personal attack and someone questioning what you say or type. Once you figure that out - you might be able to make a more coherent argument.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

Good stuff. Thanks Page.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> CS yep because when these groups propose not only a severly limited entry type of system,
> tell us that only real hunting is trophy hunting and then want to go with a party hunting system because dad cant bring himself to lower his standards to dropping the hammer on a lowly 28 inch buck. Now you are going to tell me that I am the one with the problem??? Dang homey what is it going to take???


Have you ever read any of my posts where I 100% support their proposal. I don't like many many parts of it, but at least they're doing something.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> As for slayer being little more than a parrot, I dare say he puts MORE thought into these type of issues than 95+% of the people commenting on here. And I KNOW he SHOWS UP and is willing to get 'in the game' more than 99.99% of those calling him out


Have we not talked about stuff like this before. Like I have said just becuse 99.99% does not SHOW UP does not mean they do not care. I am sure that a LOT more then 95+% put just as much thought it to this subject as he or you do. Just becuse they do not SHOW UP does not mean there thoughts are not as good or better then yours. They might have the perfect plan yet some here are so narrow mined to see it. If they are not part of the "in" crowd there ideas do not mean anything. The guys I have always hunted with are all about the inches. Each and ever year I have to listen to the same stuff you and Justin are saying. It never amounts to the betterment of the herd but the betterment of there mounts on there wall. You keep pointing out your signature line. Then you say comments such as this that make me think you really do not care about the other people. You know the other people who do not agree with you. Just becuse the majority does not show up does not mean we can not think about them. The majority that does not show up is also the majoirty of the hunters out there. There voice may not be the loudest, but there voice should the most needed.


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

> I don't like many many parts of it, but at least they're doing something.


Sometimes doing something is as bad or worse then doing nothing.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> CS - your biggest probelm is that you can't differentiate between a personal attack and someone questioning what you say or type. Once you figure that out - you might be able to make a more coherent argument


Haha. So when are you going to post a more coherent argument.??? Most of you posts so far arent even worth replying to. Im glad you finally came out of the closet and was brave enough to make a post.


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## JimmyPage (Aug 7, 2008)

> Haha. So when are you going to post a more coherent argument.??? Most of you posts so far arent even worth replying to.


Apparently they are - or you wouldn't take the time to respond. See - you are too easy - no wonder you are a FOLLOWER and will never be a leader.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Apparently they are - or you wouldn't take the time to respond. See - you are too easy - no wonder you are a FOLLOWER and will never be a leader.


No its just funny :lol: :lol: Your like the little troll Googly Moogly. So are you the follower or is Hogan?


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > Apparently they are - or you wouldn't take the time to respond. See - you are too easy - no wonder you are a FOLLOWER and will never be a leader.
> 
> 
> No its just funny :lol: :lol: Your like the little troll Googly Moogly. So are you the follower or is Hogan?


??? Confusing. Who am I following? Which direction am I going?


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## weatherby25 (Sep 10, 2007)

No where you drive a chevy. :lol:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> No where you drive a chevy.


Hey I drive a chevy also.


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## JimmyPage (Aug 7, 2008)

> No its just funny Your like the little troll Googly Moogly. So are you the follower or is Hogan?


This is just sad - I should change my forum name to PuppetMaster because it seems like I can make you do anything - sort of like Pro does to you.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> This is just sad - I should change my forum name to PuppetMaster because it seems like I can make you do anything - sort of like Pro does to you.


Well you havent been able to yet so keep trying :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: If you think you're bother me then trust me your not. I taught you to be a puppetmaster on the old forum, but maybe you don't have a memory.

So now the student is trying to be better than the teacher.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Page, I'm not sure who you are but you are a funny f***er!! Gordy ya da man dude, you hunting on Fishlake again this year?

I've given up on this thread, Pro I am sure is a good guy but changing his way of thinking aint gonna happen, he's like Dons mini-me with a parrot.


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## JimmyPage (Aug 7, 2008)

> Well you havent been able to yet so keep trying If you think you're bother me then trust me your not. I taught you to be a puppetmaster on the old forum, but maybe you don't have a memory


Are you kidding me with your grammar?

CS - I am the master - I post - you reply - even though in a previous post you typed that nothing I post is worth a reply. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Your meds are wearing off - time to call the wet nurse and make the bad men go away


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm reluctant, because I'm enjoying this, but...

Let's get back to talking about deer, eh?

Jimmy, welcome to the forum! :rotfl:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Are you kidding me with your grammar?
> 
> CS - I am the master - I post - you reply - even though in a previous post you typed that nothing I post is worth a reply.
> 
> Your meds are wearing off - time to call the wet nurse and make the bad men go away


Isnt that was discussion is about. Maybe you havent noticed, but at the top on the left-hand side of the page then it says "Discussion forum." Someone replys and you reply back.

You were just so frustrated today and now you're pretending to be someone else under a different username. Your just the same Greenhead2 who cannot add anything to the Forum. Your not JimmyPage, Your name is Chris. How retarded is that???? Are you done hiding? You post and then log off. This even makes you look more silly. How many other imaginery friends do you have? Can I pick your username next time? Anyone can use two computers to trick the MODS with IP addresses.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

> *wileywapait wrote: *
> 
> All I ask is to think of our herds first and inches second


That is a far cry from your earlier post. I already am in the camp of herd first and inches second. YOU on the other hand were earlier advocating herd ONLY, now you are dancing to a different tune.

JimmyPage, I don't know who you are and I really don't care, but you have yet to make a post that was not an attack against another person. How about offering some substance, get off the Gordy bandwagon and follow your one admonishment to cs and think on your own. You should read your own posts and then follow your own advice on taking criticism. Just a thought.

gh2, you say changing my viewpoint is impossible, true as that may be, when have you EVER admitted to being wrong on the forum? I do all the time. Am I passionate and convicted? You bet, and I make no apologies for such. Someone who has no convictions has no respect from me.

weatherby, if you don't care enough to SHOW UP or at least send e-mails to the DWR, RAC/WB members, then you don't care enough to make a difference. How the hell is the deer committee supposed to draft a plan that you agree with if you don't bother to let them know where you stand? I rarely agree w/Gordy, but he SHOWS UP, so he has my respect. slayer SHOWS UP, so he has my respect. Those who pipe off will doing NOTHING do NOT have my respect as sportsmen/conservationists.

Who ever made the ridiculous comment that conservation groups have no business meddling in wildlife issues, answer me this; who else should? The Sierra Club DOES weigh in on many wildlife issues, as does EVERY conservation group I can think of. Talk about ignorant.

Back on topic, I believe there are a few good elements of SFW's proposal, and a few others I have read. NONE of them are perfect, and NONE of them every will make everyone happy, that is a FACT! But, much good can/will come from the discussion when we focus on the topic and not make it about individuals we don't like/agree with.


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## JimmyPage (Aug 7, 2008)

First off - I don't know who Gordy is - but if he's for using biological data to determine the management of herds - then he's on to something.

2nd - I can take what I dish out - but CS only spurts out insults and has absolutely nothing creative or credible in his posts - other than echoing SFW or Pro - one in the same.

3rd - It seems to me - and probably everyone on this board that SFW has an agenda - and that is to dictate policy to the DWR and take opportunity away from hunters. That is how I read into it - and guessing that's the sentiments of everyone else that has disagreed with you and CS.

4th - I think on my own quite a bit - maybe you and CS should do the same instead of giving ***** to Don Peay in hopes of sitting at the big boy table at the next SFW banquet.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Cs you retard I am Chris, I have no imaganary friends or names but this one!! Your getting spanked by someone else! Nobody on this forum adds anything unless they agree with SFW, or Pro, and polly his parrot.

I rarley post our even come here because its just an argument and its you two doing it all! Look at how many post you two have in a year!! Pro was right this is his forum! 

Think what you like but Page is not me, but he is funny and playing you like a fiddle.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> First off - I don't know who Gordy is - but if he's for using biological data to determine the management of herds - then he's on to something.
> 
> 2nd - *I can take what I dish out *- but CS only spurts out insults and has absolutely nothing creative or credible in his posts - other than echoing SFW or Pro - one in the same.
> 
> ...


If you can take what you dish out then why are you hiding Greenhead2 grrrr I mean Jimmypage????


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> But, much good can/will come from the discussion when we focus on the topic and not make it about individuals we don't like/agree with.


Correct.

As for sharing thoughts with the mule deer committee, there are at least 3 members of that committee reading the comments in this thread. If you respect your own opinion on the subject folks, credibility counts.

In other words, knock it off or this thread ends!

(Oh, I feel all goose bumpy with power now.)


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Mods, check my IP and pages and tell hand number two we are not the same guy. CS I have no reason to play kid games. What I say here I will say to your face, probably more cause I type slow.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I already did that.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

Wow! What a shocker that this thread has turned into the same two teams fighting and defending the same group as always. 

I have ALWAYS felt that SFW has my best interest in mind. They think the same way that I do in most instances. I have been hunting all of my life and I am what you would call middle aged. I have seen many different years and periods of wildlife management. Nothing ever stays the same. "If it ain't broke then don't fix it" does not work for this situation. 

Bottom line is I like hunting.............I think it's fun!


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

CS, I wish I could. I have to deliver in Hayden, then drive all the way back home then drive all the way back to the Anthro to help with sage grouse counts about 6am tomorrow, you know to be be PROactive, see CS people do give back and put in the time, just not all of us get on a forum pat ourselves on the back and let everyone know how great we think we are!!!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

The animals are half of the equation. Hunters are the other half. Regardless of what we do, a good number of hunters are still going to think things are worse than they really are.

Deer behavior has changed, but a lot of deer hunters haven't changed their strategies at all. I'm sure that if we had any clue how many times we've been close to big bucks and been clueless that they were anywhere in the area, well...

This is especially true of the self-professed "trophy hunters". Big bucks don't get big by doing stupid things like busting from cover, running in panic, stopping at the top of a ridge to look back at whatever it is they're escaping from, etc... Big bucks do exactly what we wouldn't expect them to do and that's how they've survived. As a result, we don't see them unless we change what we're doing when we hunt.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

I'm shocked to, cs deleted another post making mine irrelevent!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

MR. FINNEGAN, I posted on page 8, post 4, "DON'T LET TWO INMATES RUIN THIS FORUM'

All PRO has to do is take off the SFW hat and he will be OK.

NOW YOTE neededs MEDs, I have even looked into the legal aspects of the SLANDER and 
NON-TRUE statments he's throwen my direction.

And for the deer, We are already moving toward state wide draw,"LE", Tags everywere.

The SFW plan will likely have a few changes, But generally followed by the deer commitee.

Like it or not, that is were I believe we are heading with this 5 year plan.

All this fuss over deer, CAN'T WAIT TIL THE ELK PLAN HIT'S THE TABLE, just imagine!?!?!?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> NOW YOTE neededs MEDs, I have even looked into the legal aspects of the SLANDER and
> NON-TRUE statments he's throwen my direction.


 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Good luck with that. Using your fake username isnt slander, but good luck with everything. You need help because you take things WAY to serious.

But if you have enough money to throw away on a lawyer because I called an anonymous person - call sign Goofy - some kind of name on an internet discussion board - then you have far bigger issues than this one.

Can you imagine the look on the judges face when he hears this case?

Goofy calling someone by their anonymous name and saying that they road hunt isnt slander. Road hunting isnt even against the law. Now when people use the name Doyle Moss and they say they have personally witnessed him blocking roads and doing something illegal when it isnt true then they're using slander.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

PRO out of respect for FINN and everybody else that has to deal with numbnuts like you me and CS I will phrase this in my most diplomatic way. What the **** are you talking about *******?? Have I ever asked one ****ing time for anything for myself?? I don't know how many times I need to say do what is _*BIOLOGICALLY RESPONSIBLE FO R DEER*_

You can call me whatever question my motives and agenda. But how the hell you can assume that I am for anything more than doing what is best for our herds is beyond me.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

I've been advised that even though we use user name's , and its a public forum,

Becouse many people know who you are, and can tie the two together, there are grounds.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I've been advised that even though we use user name's , and its a public forum,
> 
> Becouse many people know who you are, and can tie the two together, there are grounds.


Well good luck with that. Is saying that someone road hunts slander? I don;t even know who you are. Your username is Goofy. Its doesnt matter if a few people know who you are. I never mentioned your name nor your business. I never said I personally witnessed you doing something illegal.

I cant even believe you take things soooooooo serious.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wileywapati said:


> PRO out of respect for FINN and everybody else that has to deal with numbnuts like you me and CS I will phrase this in my most diplomatic way. What the **** are you talking about ****?? Have I ever asked one **** time for anything for myself?? I don't know how many times I need to say do what is _*BIOLOGICALLY RESPONSIBLE FO R DEER*_
> 
> You can call me whatever question my motives and agenda. But how the hell you can assume that I am for anything more than doing what is best for our herds is beyond me.


And you say cs needs help. :? When/where did I ever call into question your motives? Get off your high horse for a minute. I am amazed how YOU, gh2 and a few others have turned this into a personal war zone. Let's get back to talking about the deer management plan and leave all this silliness behind us, ME included. I am DONE with the verbal taunts back and forth, I will only make comments on the subject at hand instead of making comments about individuals. So, all you guys that LOVE making SLANDEROUS comments about Don Peay, Doyle Moss, Bart Hansen, etc, go for it. If that is what makes you feel like 'men', have at it. As in the great Toby Kieth song, "you may not like where I am going, but you sure know where I stand, hate me if you want to, love me if you can".
I am amazed at how petty/thinned skin some supposed grown men are. I hold no ill toward a single person from the is forum, but apparently there are a few who take themselves so serious that they don't like being told the truth and that they are WRONG. What a bunch of whiney ass babies!!!


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

I see that this thread as also turned into the normal way again -BaHa!- with Pro and CS at the top.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I see that this thread as also turned into the normal way again with Pro and CS at the top.


Am I not entitled to post my opinion?


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## JimmyPage (Aug 7, 2008)

> I see that this thread as also turned into the normal way again with Pro and CS at the top.


You expected anything else? Looks like the two inmates have been given the keys to the asylum for the weekend.


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## Greenhead 2 (Sep 13, 2007)

Umm?????? I'm trying to remember when I turned this into a personal war, I think we covered this around page four?

Giving our opinion of a group or person is not slanderous, that aside I agree, when we need to get a lawyer to proof read our post is ridiculous!! If you can't handle a little ribbing stay out of it. Dishin it out and taking it rule.

Goofy I don't know what the parrot said to you, but I really doubt it did much to your character as other people see you? I mean really, if they know you on this forum then they know CS right? That being the case they know he talks out his ass and what he says or believes has little substance. Relax dude much worse has been said to and about me, and I know a lot of people that read and are on this forum, hell the parrot all but gave out my address a few post back.


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