# A question for you gun nuts ...



## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

So I have a coming seven year old son that loves everything outdoors and hunting. I started him off with a BB gun, and now he shoots a .22 extensively. I plan on getting him up in Idaho big game hunting in three short years and am torn on what caliber to get him. 

The most important things to me are the gun fits him and he is comfortable shooting it. With that being said, I’ve narrowed it down to a couple different caliber options:

1. The mighty .243 - this is one of my all-time favorite calibers and simply kills deer and antelope. Part of my hesitation with going this route is when he goes elk hunting. I’ve killed cow elk with a .243, but it wouldn’t be my first choice for an elk round. 

2. 7mm-08 - I’ve looked at reduced recoil loads and also plenty of reloading manuals. I believe I could achieve .243 type loads for deer and antelope, but then have the option of running 140 grain bullets out of it for elk. 

There is also the 6.5 Creedmoor that has the same argument/basis as the 7mm-08. I want him to enjoy shooting his rifle and spend plenty of time practicing.

Thoughts?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I would go with the 7mm-08 or even a .25-06. 

With the .25-06 and 115 grain bullets elk are doable. It also has very light recoil. But the 7mm-08 would be a better choice for both animals just for the heaver bullets.

Both are quite a bit better than the .243 for a young hunter.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Not even a question, 7mm-08 is a hands down winner. Load it light or load it hot, you can use it from deer to moose. Just be within range to have enough bullet energy and you're golden.

My wife's killed most all of her animals with a .243 from deer to caribou. She also has a 30-06 that she took a Mt Goat with and a couple deer, but she loves that 243.

My son I started with a Savage 7mm-08 and hes killed a bunch of deer, antelope and elk with it. That gun has never seen a factory cartridge, I've got him a great load using 140gr Accubonds and it just kills stuff dead.

If I had it to do over again, I would have gone the 7mm08 route with my wife. From a recoil standpoint its not really noticeable between the two calibers.


-DallanC


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

7mm-08. My dad has a few of these he bought for the grandkids to use. My son shot his first elk last year using one of gramp’s 7mm-08’s. One shot into the boiler room from 178 yards and that cow elk dropped in its tracks. My son liked the gun so much he has been saving up to buy one for himself as his first rifle.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm with Critter on the .25-06! One of the last Cow Elk I killed was with one. Shot her at 305 yards on a trot with a 90gr. HP just behind the front leg and she dropped in her tracks. 


My brother and I both had cow and spike tags that year and both of us were tagged out from the same group of Elk. 


I wouldn't recommend a moving/running shot on an Elk like I did but I new the gun, hand loads, and my ability to make it happen. You talk about a pile of Elk in the back of a truck... It's about all we could do to get four elk in my Dakota.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

7mm-08 is far and away your best choice between the ones you are considering...heck, might be the best one gun choice out there overall.
The range of bullet selection and powder choice for this great little round just can't be matched with anything unless you jump to .30 cal. By the way, you could hardly go wrong with the 7mm-08's big brother. Lots of fine reduced loads for for the .308 Win, and when he's ready for elk, the .308 Win is ready. (Randy Newberg shoots a .308 Win and 7mm-08, go listen to him)


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Another vote for a .25-06, although I prefer the .257-06 ;-)


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

OK, let's stop this .25-06 as a first "one gun choice" nonsense. Just cause you got one and it has always treated you good don't make it the best "one gun choice" that the man is asking for. .25 cal rifles are good, gees, I been shooting a .257AI Roberts for 40 years now so I am not a .25 cal hater, it's just that compared to the versatility of 7mm's and .30 caliber rifles the .25's must be considered a "specialty caliber".


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Of those listed I'd say the 7mm-08 but my choice would be the good old .270WIN which can also be loaded in low recoil versions and/or sling 150gr slugs without issue. It is a long action though which may not play well into your youth sized stock desire.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

Of the ones you mentioned, I'd go .243. So many factory ammo options around. Id have no issues hunting deer/antelope with an 80 gr Barnes. That being said, the .243 may not be the best for elk, but is doable. 

I have zero experience with the 7-08, but the others make a great case for it. You can load light with a 120, then go heavier if needed for elk.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Here we are already talking reloading and I can't remember if CPAjeff reloads. 

I like to think factory rounds, heck you can download a 338 Winchester down to where there is very little recoil but you can't find those loads on the store shelves.


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## legacy (Sep 30, 2007)

My kids are very small. When my daughter turned 12, I bought her a 7mm-08. its been a great caliber for her. My son turned 12 this year and was able to hunt and I bought him a 7mm-08 as well. My youngest daughter will be taking hunters ed. this upcoming year and will hunt in 2021 and I will be buying her a 7mm-08. It has been a great caliber for my kids (not saying there aren't other decent options out there). I looked at multiple calibers when I was trying to figure out what to buy and ultimately this is what I went with and I have had no regrets.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

IMO, you will want a different gun for a 12 year old than a 16 year old. Also, a 12 year old may not be ready for big game hunting and will probably not be ready for elk hunting recoil. Worst thing in the world is to introduce a young kid to a lot of recoil, that can screw them up for years and even cause them to stop hunting. At 12 years old, even with reduced loads, many kids will struggle with the recoil and noise. I have seen this in my own kids and in my nieces and nephews. My 14 year daughter old shot a bull elk with a full load of 150gr out of a 7mm-08 and had no problems. My younger daughter didn't want tags for 2 years and I finally found out she was scared of the noise and the recoil of the gun even though we shot frequently, big game guns scared her to death. For a 12 year old, reduced 243 would be my max. My daughter ended up using a reduced load for a 6x45 (223 necked up to 6mm) for an antelope hunt and it took a lot of shooting to get her comfortable with that caliber which has almost no recoil. As they get older and bigger, they can handle more, I ended up getting my 16 year old son a 7mm-08 and that will do everything he wants to do for the rest of his life but he was as big as me when I got it for him. Having 6 kids that hunt, I have my youth guns/calibers that I keep and use with each kid as they grow and then when they are older, I get them a gun. Whatever you do, introduce big game recoil very slow and a measured way. There really is nothing more enjoyable than hunting with kids.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

BPturkeys said:


> OK, let's stop this .25-06 as a first "one gun choice" nonsense. Just cause you got one and it has always treated you good don't make it the best "one gun choice" that the man is asking for. .25 cal rifles are good, gees, I been shooting a .257AI Roberts for 40 years now so I am not a .25 cal hater, it's just that compared to the versatility of 7mm's and .30 caliber rifles the .25's must be considered a "specialty caliber".


Now that just hurts my feelings a bit. Think I'll go find me a cry closet now.

I'm just thinking about better downrange performance overall: velocity and energy because of a higher BC on lighter bullets for antelope sized animals up to performance from a 120 gr on elk out to 300 yds.

Sure, a light (and short) 7mm will do fine, just a little OCD on downrange ballistics is all.

Do like the comment on the .270. A 150 gr has very little recoil.


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## caddis8 (Sep 10, 2007)

Lots of good advice. 

The question to ask yourself (or your kid) is what kind of recoil they can handle? I think the 7mm-08 is a great round and there's nothing against it. 

I had this same conversation with myself two years ago. I have a .243 and love that gun, great for deer and everything below. Doable, but probably not recommended. 

I have a .270 Remington that was my late brother's. It's ok, but it's not a tack driver. Haven't found a round that it is as consistent as the .243 (sub 1" groups). I can get 2-3" with this gun. I'm never getting rid of it because of sentimental value. 

I've shot .30-06, .308" and have an old .308 that I got custom scope mounts for (I may put a newer scope on it to see if that makes a difference). The shells eject out the top and hit the scope, and it affected it's ability to hold groups. (Old crappy Weaver). 

The last rifle I bought, I wanted to get a rifle that can kill bigger things, have available ammo wherever I was, and had manageable recoil- I'm even recoil averse. I looked at a lot of stuff, read a ton, and talked to a lot of people.

Out here in the flatlands, I almost went .25-06 as that's a great out here. I decided to go with 6.5 Creedmoor. I don't know if I fell for the sexy gun syndrome. So far, I love it. Recoil is very close to .243 and it does the trick. My kids can shoot it and aren't afraid of it.

One thing to consider would be getting a suppressor for a higher caliber rifle like .270, .308, .30-06, and that reduces recoil and noise significantly, which could be better for the kid in the long run. 

I shot my buddy's .300 RUM, and it knocked my fillings out. Hated it. Wasn't worth shooting to me. Lots of knockdown power, including me.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> I'm with Critter on the .25-06! One of the last Cow Elk I killed was with one.


The downside of the .25-06 is its a Long Action and youth / smaller shooters sometimes have trouble working the long bolt. My wife had a hard time with her '06 at first cycling rounds.

The 25-06 is a amazing deer and pronghorn gun. IMO its on the light end when it comes to elk bullets (you loose alot of velocity when you get into the bullet weights you need for elk).

-DallanC


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

So far, so good. But I am just waiting for the AR guys to chime in with their BS about "he**, my .223 will kill anything on earth as dead as your .338...it's just all about shot placement"! Yeah, you just keep telling yourself that and one of these days that big old bull will take a half step or turn his head just as you pull and that little pop gun will be your worst nightmare.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

My 22lr will take down anything. It's all about correct shot placement. 

There, I said it. :grin:


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

My vote would be the 7-08 or 308. Lots of bullet options to be shot either light for caliber or heavy for caliber.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Great dialogue and information - thanks everyone!

Growing up, I shot a .243 a lot. One day out deer hunting I wanted to try my brother’s 270 at a rock after we had filled our tags. Needless to say, it recoiled much more than my .243 and I still hate 270s to this day. I know, I’m a wimp.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

CPAjeff said:


> Great dialogue and information - thanks everyone!
> 
> Growing up, I shot a .243 a lot. One day out deer hunting I wanted to try my brother's 270 at a rock after we had filled our tags. Needless to say, it recoiled much more than my .243 and I still hate 270s to this day. I know, I'm a wimp.


Ah come one now. You can't be that bad....

I shot a 30-06 when I was 5. I don't remember if I even hit that hillside but since then I have graduated up to real heavy hitting calibers.

But recoil is a problem with younger shooters. I let a friends kids shoot my .22-250 and they asked their dad why he didn't get them something like that instead of the bigger calibers that he bought them. We had to explain that Colorado didn't allow .22 calibers for big game. But they loved shooting that .22-250 whenever we went out.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

toasty said:


> IMO, you will want a different gun for a 12 year old than a 16 year old. Also, a 12 year old may not be ready for big game hunting and will probably not be ready for elk hunting recoil. Worst thing in the world is to introduce a young kid to a lot of recoil, that can screw them up for years and even cause them to stop hunting. At 12 years old, even with reduced loads, many kids will struggle with the recoil and noise. I have seen this in my own kids and in my nieces and nephews. My 14 year daughter old shot a bull elk with a full load of 150gr out of a 7mm-08 and had no problems. My younger daughter didn't want tags for 2 years and I finally found out she was scared of the noise and the recoil of the gun even though we shot frequently, big game guns scared her to death. For a 12 year old, reduced 243 would be my max. My daughter ended up using a reduced load for a 6x45 (223 necked up to 6mm) for an antelope hunt and it took a lot of shooting to get her comfortable with that caliber which has almost no recoil. As they get older and bigger, they can handle more, I ended up getting my 16 year old son a 7mm-08 and that will do everything he wants to do for the rest of his life but he was as big as me when I got it for him. Having 6 kids that hunt, I have my youth guns/calibers that I keep and use with each kid as they grow and then when they are older, I get them a gun. Whatever you do, introduce big game recoil very slow and a measured way. There really is nothing more enjoyable than hunting with kids.


This is really good advice. I started my 13 year old out with my old mossberg 308 last year because it was all I had for her at the time. She did kill a doe with it her first year but I could see she was getting more and more scared of it and taking forever between shots. Then when it punched in the cheek shooting at a buck this year I knew she was done with that gun or I'd never get her out again. So I had to dial it way back and we got her a savage axis in .243 for Xmas. Combined with ear protection she absolutely loves the gun.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Critter said:


> Ah come one now. You can't be that bad...


I'm part of that wrenched millennial generation - you know the same generation which has produced more whiners and expected handout recipients than all the previous generations combined. ;-)


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

I have a 7mm08. I love the gun. I think it kicks a little more than most 12 year olds can handle. I loaned a gun to my neighbor last year. His 13 year old tested out the 7mm08 with 140 gr. and my .223 with 55 gr. He's a pretty confident outdoorsman and shooter, but he still elected to take the .223. 

I started shooting with my own 13 year old this year and started him on the .223, as well. He isn't much of a outdoorsman yet, but he handled the .223 really well. 

All that said, your idea of getting the 7mm08 and loading/buying some reduced recoil rounds may work out great and give you the best of both worlds.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

You could always get a modern sporting rifle (ie. AR style) in a .308, .243 or any number of 6mm calibers. That would alleviate the recoil and length of pull (adjustable stock) concerns. 

Plus, in this day and age of Call of Dutyesque video games your child would be on top of the food chain due to the “cool” factor.


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## waspocrew (Nov 26, 2011)

.243! 

It's a classic youth cartridge for a reason - gets the job done and has manageable recoil. I agree with others, worst thing you can do is have too much recoil. My first rifle at age 12 was a Savage 30-06 - thing kicked my butt and I definitely developed a flinch. 

Sometimes we end up buying more rifle than we are actually need because of the *possibility* of hunting a bigger animal... For example, wanting a 308 Win for deer but ending up with a 300 RUM because "maybe I'll go to Alaska sometime".

Keep shooting that 22 LR and work up from there!

For what it's worth, my wife decided she wants to hunt deer with me this year, so naturally I needed to pick up a new rifle.... ended up going with a 6mm Creedmoor.


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## SCS_Bg_Hunter (Oct 27, 2019)

I started my kids with a 243 for deer and a 25-06 for elk. I shoot a 338 myself and now one of my boys has started to refer to it as "his" gun, we'll see i guess I think the most important thing is to get them out shooting early and often. We go to the range but most of the time we'll head far out west chasing rabbits with the high caliber rifles. There aren't as many rabbits as there used to be so it's not bad cost wise and honestly when shooting at something like a rabbit and not sitting at a table you just don't feel the kick that much. 

One of my boys isn't quite as kick resistant as the others so he uses the 25-06 for elk, for him its the best choice because he isn't concerned about the kick so he's able to make more accurate shots which is far better for him, and what he's shooting at.

Familiarity with the gun, knowing what to expect and being able to shoot accurately is more important than the caliber IMO. 

I think you'll need to make the decision based on your kids comfort with shooting the larger gun.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

CPAjeff said:


> Great dialogue and information - thanks everyone!
> 
> Growing up, I shot a .243 a lot. One day out deer hunting I wanted to try my brother's 270 at a rock after we had filled our tags. Needless to say, it recoiled much more than my .243 and I still hate 270s to this day. I know, I'm a wimp.


But now you're shooting a tikka superlite in 7mm mag??? I saw your comment about the limb saver recoil pad on my thread  Yes, I need to get the fixed version of that for my gun.

Being a huge fan of the versatility of 30 06 and all the available factory loads out there, I'd go with reduced recoil loads for this cartridge, and then as your child grows the more standard loads can be moved into. These reduced recoil loads will give about 10-11 ft/lbs recoil, which is HALF of the standard 06 loads.

Alas, the 308 reduced recoil loads give about the same (10-11 ft/lbs) and the options for factory loads are probably just as abundant if not more so than the 30 06. And, the short action might be a bit easier to work by youth, as mentioned by others.

I grew up hunting with a 12 gauge slug gun, so I haven't ever really thought much about recoil. But, my slug gun also probably weighs a good 10 lbs or more. I just really like my 30 06


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

My self and all my kids first big game caliber was 30-06. But then we couldn't hunt until we were 16 for big game.

12 and 20 gauge shotguns were standard fare we started with upland / waterfowl.

Now most of the grand kids get to start out with a .243.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

rtockstein said:


> But now you're shooting a tikka superlite in 7mm mag???


Honestly, I swear that stupid 270 kicked harder than the 7mm I shoot now. Did I mention I hate 270s?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Honestly, I swear that stupid 270 kicked harder than the 7mm I shoot now. Did I mention I hate 270s?


Stock design can affect "kick" quite a bit. My wifes Remington M700 30-06 has WAY more felt recoil than my Winchester M70 7STW... by a country mile. The STW is fun to shoot... my wifes '06, not at all.

Back to the OP, I still think you need to consider Short Action vs Long Actions for youth shooters.

-DallanC


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

7mm-08 with reduced loads.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

270s are cool. my daughter weighs 110 and shoots a Rem 700


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

7mm-08 is the way to go!

Others can fight on the details why. I just wanted to vote.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Since you plan to hunt elk, I'd go with the 7mm-08 starting with reduced recoil loads.

What ever you decide on, ease them into it slowly, I've seen kids ruined by shooting too big of a gun too early. Start by having them shoot off a led sled full of weight to take the recoil away. Use both foamy ear plugs and muffs at the same time to reduce the noise. Definitely get a youth model with a reduced length of pull and shorter barrel. Pass it down to the younger siblings and get them a full size rifle once they reach about 16 years old.

I was in the same boat a few years ago and settled on a .243. Then my son drew the youth any bull tag when he was 12 and I ended up purchasing a 7mm-08 for that hunt. I've been really happy with the 7mm-08 performace on elk, it's taken 4 cows so far without issue. We've used both guns a lot, but if I was to do it again, I'd go straight for the 7mm-08.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Again, thanks for all the wonderful replies and information!

I’m planning on going with the 7mm-08 with reduced recoil loads for him. Who knows, maybe I’ll end up shooting it a little bit.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

One more thought. I'd recommend getting something that can take a beating (synthetic stock, stainless barrel, etc.). At that age (depending on the child) they aren't very careful. It will get set down on a pile of rocks, dropped and scraped. You'll be happier if you aren't worried about that happening to an expensive gun and will help keep a positive vibe on the mountain.


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

Maybe I am just drinking the coolaid but I’d do a 6.5CM (which i did for my kids). Mine shot three bucks this fall with two 13 year old girls and a 12 year old boy. None of which probably weigh over 100 pounds. They all handled it great. I’d highly recommend a good recoil reducing muzz brake and also (always) really good hearing protection.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Not that I'm selling a youth model 7mm 08 or anything, but I think there is more than just recoil to consider although it is probably the first factor. Also, short action, length of pull and overall weight. The youth models achieve all of this pretty effectively. I started my 12 year old practicing on reduced recoil loads achieved with h4895 powder and unbeknownst to him, he was hunting with full power loads, but with 120 grain barnes that perform more like a 140 grain bullet. He hit a buck from 220 yards first shot and excitment takes over so he didn't even notice the difference in recoil, I sighted it in based on full powder charges. 
The shorter barrel does give up some accuracy, but I think it's a great overall package for new hunters. Now in the market for a 6.5 creedmoor standard barrel to replace the youth model for my soon to be 15-year old.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

7mm 08

or the 256 Newton


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Jeff -- sorry about your experience with the .270. Up until that post, I kept thinking "why not a .270?"

my daughter killed her antelope with a .223. Dropped it in it's tracks. That's probably too small, however, for an inexperienced hunter to be shooting at deer, and certainly elk.

She killed her first deer (age 13) with a .50 muzzleloader. That gun packs a kick!
Her second deer (age 15) was with my .270. I've never heard her complain about the kick of that gun. I absolutely love that .270. It's killed a lot of (cow) elk. I have a new 7mm that I've only shot a few times.....because i always grab the .270.

Sorry -- I can't help with the .243 vs. 7mm-08. I have no experience with either. I know that my brother's daughter uses the 7mm-08 and had good success dropping (cow) elk.

good luck with your decision.




(you should buy yourself a new gun too! I'd recommend a .270!)


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Just wanted to update this thread - I ended up going with a youth model 7mm-08. Today we needed some social distancing and went for some group therapy at the Cache Valley 50 yard shooting range. 

This was my seven year olds first time shooting the rifle and he had a blast! 14 grains Trail Boss, 130 grain HPBT, and 2.70 COAL is an absolute joy to shoot. The first five shots were a little high, so we made an adjustment and sent some more downrange. The best part about the whole day was my little hunting buddy asked if we could do it again next weekend!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I think my son shot reduced loads once, first time out. After that I worked up an accurate hunting load that was right at book max, sub MOA. I never told my son after that he was shooting full power loads... he just loved shooting it.


-DallanC


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

DallanC said:


> I think my son shot reduced loads once, first time out. After that I worked up an accurate hunting load that was right at book max, sub MOA. I never told my son after that he was shooting full power loads... he just loved shooting it.
> 
> -DallanC


That's awesome! The plan is for him to shoot these loads for the next three years before we head to Idaho and Arizona for his first big game hunts when he is 10. Unbeknownst to him, I'll load up some hunting loads and slide them in the pack before we head out hunting.


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