# I want to start hunting cougar



## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Hey guys, after about 8 years of bowhunting deer and elk and getting some cougars on my trail cams this year I would love to try to tag a cougar. I have never been, and I have read about the harvest objective units in utah. 

If anyone out there would be willing to let a 29 year avid hunter tag along I would love to. I would apprecaite any advice or thoughts on how to get started.


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

It's pretty dang hard to find 'em without good dogs. Maybe that should be the first thing to look into...best of luck to you!


----------



## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

So how much do guys with dogs charge? Would it be hard to find guys who are maybe training dogs that would be willing to run their dogs on a hunt for free while they are training?


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

UtahMountainMan said:


> Would it be hard to find guys who are maybe training dogs that would be willing to run their dogs on a hunt for free while they are training?


Yes.


----------



## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Lance and Frank Redd have alot of hounds. They normally just do the pursuit thing. They own Redd Roofing in Ogden look 'em up and talk to them maybe they will help ya out.


----------



## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

Here goes- I am in the hounds for the hounds. I have seen many nice cats harvested, but not for a few years. So taking a vetran of 29 years out, that just wants to shoot a cat, well that would hinder my ability to train my hounds, taking the fun out it for me. Any respectable Houndsmen in my eyes should make someone they are going to harvest a lion for "earn their stripes". I get calls all the time from peeps wanting to kill a lion, the conversation in short. And letting someone tag along, then the next weekend some other DB is right were you treed the lion the week before.


----------



## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Hound Inc. said:


> Here goes- I am in the hounds for the hounds. I have seen many nice cats harvested, but not for a few years. So taking a vetran of 29 years out, that just wants to shoot a cat, well that would hinder my ability to train my hounds, taking the fun out it for me. Any respectable Houndsmen in my eyes should make someone they are going to harvest a lion for "earn their stripes". I get calls all the time from peeps wanting to kill a lion, the conversation in short. And letting someone tag along, then the next weekend some other DB is right were you treed the lion the week before.


I may have mistypd my original entry or you misunderstood. I am a 29 year OLD avid hunter. I am a bowhunter. I have never even been on a cat pursuit. I would love to witness a pursuit or help in anyway. I am willing to earn my stripes.

My question right now is how to start earning my stripes.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

What you don't understand is that most houndsmen don't like to kill cats. And if its going to be done they make sure its done by a good ol boy. And also they hate the idea of killing a cat for the purpose of just killing a cat to reduce the population. As stated it's counter productive to there endeavor. 

IMO someday the mentality and influence houndsmen perpetuate. Will be recognized as one of the most detrimental lobby's that ever hit big game. They are no different than guys who want wolf abundant in Utah so they can hunt them.


----------



## Cold Track (Sep 11, 2007)

Glad that's your opinion because you don't have a clue! Ten years ago I could catch way more lions than I do now, and find more trophy bucks to hunt as well. LIONS ARE WAY DOWN IN THIS STATE, you big time hunters sure won't listen to the houndsmen when we say this because in your eyes all we want are lions and that is where you are wrong. Pretty much all the best hunters I know are houndsmen, guys that love to kill a big buck or bull just like you! Spend some time with a real houndsmen who is a good hunter, and you will see this. Don't go off of the dinks that just own dogs and run their mouths.


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

Cold Track is right. Killing lions to bring back the deer herd is one of those strategies that sound good in theory, but when it is tried in the real world has always yeilded disappointing results. The Cache unit is a perfect example. We've spent the past 15 years under a predator management plan whereby a pretty much unlimited number of cougar tags are issued. At first, a lot of lions hit the dirt. Right now, however, finding a lion track to run dogs on has never been tougher on the unit because the resident cougar population is a tiny percentage of what it once was. I sacrificed my lion hunting opportunities for the sake of the big game hunters, yet despite all the dead lions, the Cache unit was one they shortened to a three day hunt this year. WTH??

Even the hierarchy of the SFW in all their wisdom privately acknowdge that killing lions to bring back deer herds has been a failed strategy. Nonetheless, every RAC meeting is full of big game hunters insisting more lions must be killed.

My own opinion is that as long as big game hunters are focused on killing lions to restore their herds, they will continue to ignore what I see as the number 1 threat to the long range health of the deer herds, habitat degradation......and deer populations will continue to dwindle. 

I trust you understand why I disagree with you Iron Bear.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Utahmountainman,,,,,Utah hounds men are pizzed.
The lion population in Utah is all but destroyed except on a few units,,,,,,,,,,
For many years now, lions have taken the heat for the declining deer herds.
In 1997 harvest objective lion hunting was introduced, The Utah lion population
has steadily dropped since that time.

Its to the point were many hounds men have realized that they can control their
own destiny. There is pretty much a new unwritten law,,No more killing females.

And to top that off, not giving any info out, OR, helping anyone trying to start.
Cougar hunting is a tough business to try and break into right now...


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Kevin D, Are you denying the laws of predation?

Do you believe cougars have no effect on the deer herd what so ever? 

Do deer have an effect on cougars? Meaning if there were no deer what so ever would there be as many cougar?

These two species are hooked at the hip. 

You certainly understand the effect that wolf would have on our elk herd. A heard that would have not grown to its present size if wolf were present all along. Because elk are top of the list on a wolfs diet. And deer are top of the list on cougars diet. 

This brings up another issue. Elk are now being killed by cougar. Its always happened to a certain degree. But now in some cases the elk have become nearly as big of a food source as deer are. This isn't change in taste its a result of a lack of primary prey (deer). A windfall discovery for SFW the DWR, Houndsman, Cattleman, FS, BLM CWMU's and Outfitters and the Habitat industry. Hey we can have the cougar keep the deer and elk in check let the hunters harvest the surplus. By the way we have been seeing the surplus. And it smells like LE elk hunting. A hunter harvest somewhere around 5% of the herd. But this will only work so long as there are no or little wolf. Hence the all on board movement against wolf. :V|: 

All at the expense of general hunters. 

I will argue to the Houndmen set that if they will relent and help the deer herd grow to its current objective of 411000 deer and then you could still maintain a population of cougar that is as big or bigger than it is now. :shock: Yep I said it the answer to more cougar is more deer. But next time around I would argue to keep the predator population under capacity and let hunter harvest keep the deer herd in check.

Cache was mentioned. Not all units are created equally. I do believe cache has an over hunting issue at these currently low deer numbers. Also it has seen some significant habitat loss. And lots of encroachment and I do also believe that that unit suffers a roadkill issue more than say Monroe. That being said the CWMU's in the unit seem to be content. I would never use one mans experience as a barometer to conclude the overall condition of a unit. But I had the pleasure of hunting a deer CWMU this fall in Cache county. And was pleasantly surprised at the amount of deer I seen. Brought me back to another day and actually lit a fire under me to start arguing the issues again here.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's your problem IB,,,,You only focus, see, hunt, live on, talk about Monroe....

Monroe is the ONLY UNIT IN THE STATE with the type of cougar predication you
describe, This is the result of Monroe being used for many years of lion studies..
And as far as "lions now switching to elk",,,,,That happened in 1992 when Utah's deer 
herd took a monster hit with winter kill. For what ever reason, its still happening today..Even were deer are present in good numbers,I still find elk to be their favorite meal...........8 out of 10 dead deer I find in the winter are coyote kills, putting them far more than all other predators combine, excluding man.

This is why your not being taken seriously, most of Utah has a far different look
as far as lion populations go, For the life of me, I don't understand why you
just wont hunt your big game some were else?
I general hunted deer in the southeast region for the last week, saw easily
over 400 deer , My buck count was around 45, my 12 year old harvested his first...

I travel and hunt were "what ever what I'm hunting" is doing very well,,,,,
This seams to work very well for me, my family,and every one else I help.
You should try it sometime...


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Hot spotting. Yep that's the answer. This is why I want to protect Monroe in the future with LE. 

For some reason I have endless endurance on the predation matter. Maybe because its so commonsensical. For what its worth I am for all hunters having abundance of there favorite game. This includes houndsmen. If it were up too me I'd put every houndsmen in Utah on the DWR payroll to be full time guardians of predation and facilitators to viable general hunts. In my Utopian version of big game management we would all get to pursue game to our hearts content. The only losers would be ones who have manipulated the powers of supply and demand in their favor. I have no ulterior motive my intentions are true for 95% of hunters out there what ever there pursuit may be. 

To quote John Lennon. :roll: "You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one".


----------



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I was out looking for sheep on the Stansbury's yesterday with the lucky tag holder. One of the guys stumbled across a mature ram that had been killed. It looks like a lion kill. We covered several miles and saw ZERO deer. IMHO, lions are NOT the sole cause, or even the main cause of deer populations suffering. But, they DO have more of an impact than the houndsmen would like you to believe. I also am convinced the decline of lion populations are no where near as drastic as the houndsmen would like you to believe. It is in their interest to understate the lion population and the impact lions have on deer. Again, this is just my opinion based on years in the hills, both as a houndsman and as a non-houndsman.


----------



## Cold Track (Sep 11, 2007)

Lions eat deer, elk ,moose, coyotes, and two of their favorites porcupines and skunks, and whatever else they may catch. We all know this, but there aren't lion kills under every tree. I love a big buck as much or more than anything and it saddens me to see some of the herd numbers across the state. The main thing here is the fact that every other deer hunter around wants to blame one of the animals I love to hunt for the low deer numbers and that is just it, there aren't that many. I would gladly take any one of you out for three days and show you how great the lion hunting is. We might just maybe get one race in those three days, maybe. I hunt on horses, snow machines, four wheeler, and truck in all seasons, but try to hunt on horses the most because that is what I like and a lot because my dogs can at least get out of the box! If you want to come with me be prepared to ride the wheelers and snow machine at least 50 miles a day, or sit on a horse all day because 75% of the time that is the only action you will see.


----------



## Cold Track (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh yeah, just because you had dogs for a couple of years that don't make you a houndsmen. When did you have dogs? 10+ years ago when there were good lion numbers.


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Cold Track said:


> Lions eat deer, elk ,moose, coyotes, and two of their favorites porcupines and skunks, and whatever else they may catch. We all know this, but there aren't lion kills under every tree. I love a big buck as much or more than anything and it saddens me to see some of the herd numbers across the state. The main thing here is the fact that every other deer hunter around wants to blame one of the animals I love to hunt for the low deer numbers and that is just it, there aren't that many. I would gladly take any one of you out for three days and show you how great the lion hunting is. We might just maybe get one race in those three days, maybe. I hunt on horses, snow machines, four wheeler, and truck in all seasons, but try to hunt on horses the most because that is what I like and a lot because my dogs can at least get out of the box! If you want to come with me be prepared to ride the wheelers and snow machine at least 50 miles a day, or sit on a horse all day because 75% of the time that is the only action you will see.


You must be hunting them in a ****ty area then.


----------



## Cold Track (Sep 11, 2007)

I must be, targeting the better wintering areas from Kanab to Tremonton isn't working. I'm open to anywhere, you tell me where you find all the lions and I'll gladly go there! I wished I knew as much about game as you boys. In all of my years guiding deer, elk, moose, sheep, goats,antelope, lions, and bear I still am unable to learn the secrets of where all the deer hunters are hiding the lions as of lately. I'm done argueing with you lion experts. Sorry for ruining your thread.


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

There are more lions on the front than you can probably imagine. Got an old co-worker friend that lives at the top of 193 that has had the same large tom walk across his back lawn 3 times in the last 2 weeks. He says they are all over right by his house. last year i hunted the same canyon for grouse in december(i think it was early in the month) and cut 3 different tracks walking the trail up and down. The last year i hunted Curtis Creek on the muzzy we saw a tom and female less than 1 mile from each other in Six Bit. Tons of tracks in the area too. 4 different camps this year on the elk hunt claimed to have seen a lion miles apart opening morning. Last year i cut 5 sets of lion tracks and 3 sets of bear tracks. I think you need to look around more. I will show you where a big tom lives if you tree him and let me shoot him. You better be ready to hike though. No wheelers, snowmobiles, or trucks. All hoofing it straight up. He is within 15 minutes of clearfield.


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

You'll have to forgive me Iron Bear, but I really do have more important things to do...................(deleted).......................... Nonetheless, a couple points.....

First, I think no one better understands the symbiotic relationship between lions and mule deer as houndsmen. Afterall, you can't begin to understand cougar behavior without knowing something about mule deer as well.

Second, you mention that lions are now starting to prey on elk. My question is when did they ever stop?? I suspect I was dragging around a box full of hounds when most on this forum were still dragging around a diaper full of sh!t. I've been running dogs off of elk and even the occaisional moose kill since the 1970's so trust me, it is nothing new.

Third, having a healthy mule deer population and a healthy cougar population is not mutually exclusive. I know because I've seen it. The best years lion hunting were also the the peak years of the deer population. Is it any coincidence that the deer units that are currently fairing the best in the state are also the ones with the healthiest lion populations?? I dunno, you tell me.

Finally, you mentioned wolves. My opinion is that it is guys like yourself that is facilitating the spread of wolves in the west. How you say?? By creating a predator vacuum that invites them in. Any time a predator is indroduced to a prey rich environment they are going to flourish, it's just the law of nature. So why make it easier for them?? If and when I see my first wolf in Utah, I hope to be able to count it's ribs.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

lunkerhunter2, The "Front" dose hold a good number of lions and is about to become
a mini California,,,,,Here's why.

15 years ago we hunted cats north of the point of the mountain a little, this was just
before the tree huggers up there started taking hold. If you would like an interesting
experience now, load a truck full of hound dogs and go up and down the Wasatch front
and see how many "citizens" call the police, or actually confront you to see what your doing.
Its just not worth the hassle of trying to run dogs there even though there are lions..

And, if I'm not mistaken, SLC passed an ordinance that outlawed dogs off a leash and
horses anywhere in salt lake county on the front to "protect water shed"................
Pretty tough to hunt lions there when you cant even release dogs..

One more thought, I wouldn't be surprised to see the lion problem from the point of
the mountain north to become bad enough government trappers are brought in to
eliminate lions,,,,,,,,,,,,And that will be yet another loss of opportunity to Utah sportsman.


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

UtahMountainMan, I gotta give you credit here. There are so many new guys that come on asking for specifics on where to find a specific game animal, or to take them along to let them hunt. You asked only to learn, not to personally hunt. That is in my mind a great sportsman that doesnt want to work off of someone else's coat tails.

Welcome to the forum since I havent run across you before. I wish I had some advice for you on cougar, but I dont know much more than they scare me


----------



## UtahMountainMan (Jul 20, 2010)

Bax* said:


> UtahMountainMan, I gotta give you credit here. There are so many new guys that come on asking for specifics on where to find a specific game animal, or to take them along to let them hunt. You asked only to learn, not to personally hunt. That is in my mind a great sportsman that doesnt want to work off of someone else's coat tails.
> 
> Welcome to the forum since I havent run across you before. I wish I had some advice for you on cougar, but I dont know much more than they scare me


Thanks for the kind words Bax. And you are right, I am not looking for a handout I want to learn. I dont even know anyone who has dogs or gets out to pursue cats.

I do know an area that seems to hold a lot of lions. Last season, I got to my hunting spot 30 min before light and I heard coyotes about 300 yards below me in a drainage yelping and going nuts. Well, the sun comes up and I look down there through my binos and I see a huge set of antlers. I then see a cougar circling the antlers chasing off about 6 coyotes who were also circling the antlers. It turns out the cat killed the 3x4 buck (about 26 inches wide) during the night. I watched the cat for about 30 minutes as it was biting the fur off the deer, peeing around it, and dragging sticks and sage brush to cover it up (NO LIE). Since then I have been more interested in cougar hunting.

Within 3 miles of that area I also came across cougar tracks several times last season and this year. I am not sure of the cougar boundary area so I dont know if this is a LE area or an objective unit but I would be willing to share the area with someone who would let me tag along and watch them work. Pm me .


----------



## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> lunkerhunter2, The "Front" dose hold a good number of lions and is about to become
> a mini California,,,,,Here's why.
> 
> And, if I'm not mistaken, SLC passed an ordinance that outlawed dogs off a leash and
> ...


These lions are not in the salt lake valley. No ordinances to worry about, no treehuggers(if we see one we can whack it and pile branches on it and blame the kill on lions), no interference. You say when and i will show you where they are.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Kevin D, I would be pissed if I were you too and someone outed my pastime for what it is.

No one wants to feel culpable for the demise of general hunting.


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2010)

i dont think that hunting and killing these wild cats is a smart thing..


----------



## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

tazz123 said:


> i dont think that hunting and killing these wild cats is a smart thing..


I know, I know, don't feed the trolls. :roll:

But just so we're all clear, I'm not at all against hunting and killing cougar, I just want lions managed in a responsible way like any other game animal.


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

tazz123 said:


> i dont think that hunting and killing these wild cats is a smart thing..


tazz123, a spammer from Pakistan, is no longer a member here.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Kevin D said:


> But just so we're all clear, I'm not at all against hunting and killing cougar, I just want lions managed in a responsible way like any other game animal.


Me too! But with the 100,000 deer hunters in Utah in mind.


----------



## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I would love to see us kill 75% of the remaining cats in Utah which is where the lion population should be.


----------

