# The numbers are out and it's time to speak up



## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

The "statewide archery committee" has been formed and we will convene next week to discuss the future of statewide archery. 

Here are the numbers for pick your region, so if you have an opinion, one way or another, please speak up. Public input is very valuable, special interest should not be allowed to dictate policy.

What do these numbers mean to you guys? 

BUCK DEER ARCHERY CENTRAL REGION	2564

BUCK DEER ARCHERY NORTHEASTERN REGION	2731

BUCK DEER ARCHERY NORTHERN REGION	1944

BUCK DEER ARCHERY SOUTHEASTERN	3175

BUCK DEER ARCHERY SOUTHERN REGION	5600


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## H20FWLR (Nov 27, 2007)

So was the dedicated hunter #s included in this poll???


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Good question, I'll find out shortly.


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## bloodtrail (Sep 20, 2007)

The area I hunt is on the boundary of NE and Central region. I have an archery elk tag and a NE Region deer tag and while hunting elk, I had three different opportunities for nice bucks and could not pursue due to this stupid new law! 

If the Southern Region hunters want to keep people out, that is fine but why did they have to ruin my Northern Utah hunt this year? I am also upset that I cannot hunt the extended areas until the end of the hunt! 

Archery tags should have only two choices - either Northern Utah or Southern Utah. There is no reason to restrict between the northern regions! At minimum, archery elk hunters should be allowed to hunt deer and elk in the same areas of Northern Utah!

Who can we speak up to? I am very frustrated that I cannot hunt deer in the same Northern Utah areas that I can hunt elk!


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

WOW 5600 people in southern Utah? I don't know how any of the archers were able to open the doors on their trucks to shoot the deer standing on the road :roll: . A 1/4 of the state for 5600 hunters man is that some crowding. I really cant' see how taking a 1000 hunters out of the south is going to help anything. there is enough room on the dutton for that many hunters. 

Tree can you remind me again what the pumpkin numbers are for the southern unit? It seems like that is about a 1/4 of what they deal with in the rifle crowd.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks for putting those number up for us.yea please let us know if the DH numbers where in that to.


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## HOGAN (Sep 8, 2007)

We should make the southern a draw unit. You put in for that your 1st choice and you have a chance to hunt there, while the rest of the state remains "statewide". This would solve everything. LE for the southern boys and their prescious mountain in their backyard. :mrgreen:


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

For the first year in many, I thought the southern region had a noticeably smaller number of hunters...


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Also, do those numbers include youth hunters, who can hunt all 3 seasons?


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## LETTER-RIP (Sep 14, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> For the first year in many, I thought the southern region had a noticeably smaller number of hunters...


wait till the 1st. then we will see how many people head south on the statewide portion of the hunt. you could easily add another 1000 to the 5600 on labor day weekend.
i hunt northern. i like those numbers. i felt restricted as for not being able to hunt the front on the opener, but i have the next 3 mons. so i will be happy that i still have that option.


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## stablebuck (Nov 22, 2007)

ummm...correct me if I'm wrong, but you can hunt the front right now if you have a northern tag...


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

Last year I was very involved in the Big Game RAC meetings when this was an issue, and am thus very familiar with this issue and can address some of the questions that have been asked. I have been asked to sit on the Statewide Archery Committee as a representative of the Utah Bowmens Association. My personal opinion on this matter is that there is absolutely no reason to limit bowhunters to one region. The following answers to the asked questions support my stance on this matter.



> Tree can you remind me again what the pumpkin numbers are for the southern unit? It seems like that is about a 1/4 of what they deal with in the rifle crowd.


There are approximately 14,000 rifle hunters hunting in the Southern region.



> For the first year in many, I thought the southern region had a noticeably smaller number of hunters...


And yet these numbers are almost identical to the numbers that the DWR already had from surveys over years past. In other words, the number of hunters in the south did not change due to requiring us to pick a region.



> So was the dedicated hunter #s included in this poll???





> Also, do those numbers include youth hunters, who can hunt all 3 seasons?


I do not believe that these numbers include dedicated hunters or youth hunters, although I will let Tree follow up on that when he hears back from Anis.



> We should make the southern a draw unit. You put in for that your 1st choice and you have a chance to hunt there, while the rest of the state remains "statewide". This would solve everything. LE for the southern boys and their prescious mountain in their backyard.


I must respectfully disagree with this for a couple of reasons. As I stated above, there are nearly three times as many rifle hunters in the southern region as there are bowhunters. Yet, the rifle hunters don't seem to have a crowding problem. I simply cannot understand how 5600 hunters can be considered "crowded" when over 14,000 is not. Also, the mountain ranges in southern Utah are just as much a part of Utah as are the mountains in every other region. It doesn't matter if you live in Logan, SLC, Provo, Vernal, Blanding, Fairview, Cedar City, or anywhere else within the state. All Utah residents have the same oppurtunity to use the states resources regardless of location or proximity to home.

I truly believe that there are two major factors in the overcrowding perception. First, the archery hunts start in mid August which is a great time to be outdoors no matter what your recreation preference is. The first weekend of the hunt is typically the weekend before school starts as well. Thus, you get many people making one final summer trip before the school year gets under way. In addition to that add the many avid fisherman, ATV riders, campers, boy scout troops, muzzy and rifle hunters starting their scouting, etc. When you put it all together it really puts a lot of people in the mountains, coincidentally all on the same weekend. I believe that much of the perception of many bowhunters is that everybody out in the mountains in August is hunting, when many are actually simply recreating in some other manner.

The second major factor that I believe is contributing to the overcrowding perception is people hunting the hot spots and attributing what they are seeing to the entire region. Well, the fact is that there are crowding issues in every region. I've hunted the southeastern region and heard locals complain about the number of people hunting on the Abajo mountains and on Skyline drive. I've hunted the central region and listened to people complain about crowding around Strawberry and on the Wasatch Front (which is mostly unhuntable from the roads). I've hunted the northeastern region and listed to the complaining about numbers around Current Creek and in the Uintas. I've never hunted the northern region, yet I've heard much talk of the crowding on the Monte Cristo. However, these crowded areas are not a fair representation of the entire region in which they reside. They are simply hot spots within the region. The southern region is no different. It has hot spots just like every other region. Yet if you're willing to move away from the hot spots you can have a pleasant hunt with little company, just like in every other region.

All of that said, as a member of the Statewide Archery Committee I welcome all civil comments and input concerning this matter, regardless of your position.


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

> Who can we speak up to? I am very frustrated that I cannot hunt deer in the same Northern Utah areas that I can hunt elk!


If you want your voice heard concerning any matter regarding Big Game, show up to your local RAC meeting in November and voice your opinion. Below I have included a link with the RAC schedule:

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/pdf/09_rac_schedule.pdf


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## HJB (May 22, 2008)

Here's what the numbers will be like once the extended starts:
S - 0
SE - 0
NE - 0
N - 7,000
C - 9,014

Pretty lame! I think you should choose a unit and stay in it the whole season (Including Extended) I hate the dang winter Migration of southern guys to the extended.


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## ROI (Jul 13, 2009)

The first thing that needs to be determined is a definition of crowding. This will be difficult. The second issue will be applying that definition to specific areas. I personally don't think it will apply region wide. Then every recreational activity should be regulated in the defined crowing locations. Not just the archers. No camping, ATV riding, scouting, fishing, birdwatching during the time periods that meet the definition of crowding. Everyone would need to be regulated. My thoughts are that Memorial weekend, July 4th and 24th weekends might also meet the defintion of crowding in specific locaiton. If crowding is such a big problem then every user of public ground should do their part.

Another issue to consider is that the southern region is mostly public ground. So even though the numbers maybe higher there is more acreage to spread out into. Looking at just the number of archers is simplistic at best.

If we are required to pick a region in the future it would be interesting to divide the tags up by the precentage of public ground available in the region compared to the entire state.


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## 400BULL (Nov 16, 2007)

Hay guys it looks like the southern boys have numbers to back up their clam. Based on those numbers
34% hunt Southern
20% hunt Southeastern
17% hunt Northeastern
16% hunt Centeral
12% hunt Northen.

From what I'm seeing you have at least twice the number of archery hunters in the southen unit as you do in any other unit except the Southeastern unit.

400bull


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

I know a couple of guys who put in for southern tags, just to piss off the southern guys. They won't hunt until after the first.

Fishrmn


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## 400BULL (Nov 16, 2007)

> Yet, the rifle hunters don't seem to have a crowding problem.


What planet have you been on the past decade come the end of October? Every year come the end of October all that I hear on this site and several others that I visit is how freaken many pumpkins show up an a ridge the hunter "X" has been hunting for years. If you have not heard any one complain about over crowding during the muzzle or rifle hunt you simply have not been lissening. Hunters are not just complaining about the southen unit ether they are complaining about over crowding on all units during the rifle and muzzleloader hunts.

400bull


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

400,

Last year when the rifle and muzzleloader number were broght up at the RACs, the question was asked if the rifle or muzzleloader hunters were complaining about crowding issues. The answer was a simple no and nobody ever commented otherwise.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Good post Ben.

Here is the answer I received:

Tye,

Dedicated hunters are not included. Those are only the general season archers. 
Our estimate is that about 2000 dedicated hunters hunt the southern region during the archery season.



> *"400bull wrote;*
> 
> From what I'm seeing you have at least twice the number of archery hunters in the southen unit as you do in any other unit except the Southeastern unit.


Like Ben said:



> there are nearly three times as many rifle hunters in the southern region as there are bowhunters. Yet, the rifle hunters don't seem to have a crowding problem. I simply cannot understand how 5600 hunters can be considered "crowded" when over 14,000 is not.


The politics need to be stripped away and reality needs to be acknowledged, dictating sound biological decisions, not ones based on "perceived" problems and unsubstantiated complaints. At the end of it all, if sound management (hunter and hunted) decisions dictate that statewide archery should be a thing of the past, then to me that's the direction that should be followed, but I sincerely doubt it has much merit, at least to the majority.


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## havnfun (Dec 3, 2007)

I have been in the SE region and have ran into more people than last year. Not a problem if you are willing to get away from people. There is plenty of room for everyone. I live in UT county and one of my biggest frustrations is that 3 different regions come together within 30 min of my house. That has been anoying when friends and family have not been able to hunt together. Keep it statewide!


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

> From what I'm seeing you have at least twice the number of archery hunters in the southen unit as you do in any other unit except the Southeastern unit.


As was mentioned by ROI, the amount of public huntable ground in the southern region far exceeds the public huntable ground of any other region. Thus, logically the southern region should support more hunters than any other region. In addition, as I stated earlier (even if you disagree) there is not a problem with nearly triple the number of rifle hunters. Therefore, I simply do not see how there can be a problem with the archers.

ROI, you make a great point about limiting all recreators if we limit any. I agree with you 100% on that and even brought this up with last year at the central region RAC.


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## 400BULL (Nov 16, 2007)

I'm not so sure that the southern unit has more public ground then any other unit with the exception of the northen unit. When you conceder the souther unit has several national parks that are off limits, 4 LE deer units that are off limits, and I personaly know of a bunch of private land that is off limits near Zions, some on the Monroe Mountain, The Pahvant Mountain, and Fish Lake. Untill some one can some me numbers showing me the percentages that argument is a wash with all units except the Northern unit.

400bull


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

My reply is specific to me only.
I put in for the draw to insure that I got a archery tag. Normally I hunt the northern region so I put in for it.
After the draw came out two friends had drawn LE Archery Elk tags. One Southern, one Central. They wanted some help so I am helping out and glad to do it. But no deer hunting for me unless the one with the Southern tag gets lucky this week as the deer hunt on his unit closes. Yes I can still hunt the extended but my normal hunting area is not on the extended area. I'm not really complaing but it sucks to have to pick a region before the draw results are out.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

400bull, It really is irrelevant. 5600 bow hunters is a SMALL number compared to 14000 rifle hunters.


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

400,

I do not have the actual numbers, but I have personally talked with the DWR Big Game Coordinator concerning these numbers and he has told me that they do in fact have the numbers, and that there is in fact much more public huntable ground in the southern region. I will work with him to get the actual numbers and I will post them here when I receive them.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I think the main problem with the Southern Region is the structure of habitat. The Southern Region has more public lands in the general season area than any other region, that is true. But (there always has to be a but) most of the archery pressure is on higher elevation lands. There is not a huge crowding problem out in the Western Desert areas. The crowding (or perceived crowding) occurs in the aspen/pines areas, which is small in area when compared to the PJ jungles and sage deserts. We discussed this issue in the Mule Deer Committee. The Forest Service and BLM Reps both expressed their concerns of archery hunter impact on the higher country. It was expressed that a larger portion of rifle hunters hunt the desert areas, the migration areas at lower elevation.

I am not going to weigh-in with an opinion on the crowding issue, I have not archery hunted the Southern Region for almost 10 years. I will say the data shows archers have become more proficient with their weapons. Statewide archery success runs in the 20%+- range. Last year rifle hunters success was only the mid-20%s. I doubt we will see large changes with the current system, but if there is a need to protect the resource, IF, then we should all welcome the change. If there is no need to protect the resource more then the status quo should work just fine.


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## Theekillerbee (Jan 8, 2009)

I hate to say this, but the RAC process if a waste of time and money. I've been to them, and all they are is a public forum to make you think you are having some kind of constructive input. Last year 3 of the 5 RAC's recommended to keep the archery statewide...in my book that is a majority, yet the plicks in Salt Lake made up their minds long ago that there would be a pick your region, regardless of what the "public" had to say. You can go to the RAC's all you want, but I for one will not waste any more of my time at them. Mark my words, there will be a limit put on regions for the archery hunt! Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease!


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

I'm sorry, but I just have to shake my head. For the life of me I cannot figure how anybody could think that any region is over crowded at anytime by any group of hunters.

The Energy Solutions Arena seats 19,911 people. I find it hard to believe that any specific region could not easily absorb what sits in the ESA.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Huntoholic said:


> I'm sorry, but I just have to shake my head. For the life of me I cannot figure how anybody could think that any region is over crowded at anytime by any group of hunters.
> 
> The Energy Solutions Arena seats 19,911 people. I find it hard to believe that any specific region could not easily absorb what sits in the ESA.


 :idea:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

No one in ANY of the RAC's, the DWR, or the Wildlife Board could even give a guess as to what is "over-crowding". Therein lies the biggest problem with this so-called over-crowding, everyone has a different number of hunters per square mile that is considered 'crowded'. I was on the Dutton opening weekend of the archery hunt, and I ran into the local conservation officer. He said that most of the 'hunters' he had talked to on OPENING DAY were LE RIFLE elk hunters out scouting. And guess what, we say a pile of mature bucks yet very fewer hunters. I could have arrowed several different 150"+ bucks within a 1/4 mile of the main road on the mountain if I had a tag and would have been willing to chase deer instead of scout for elk. 

IMHO the 'squeaky wheel' isn't even archers at all. It is rifle hunters from the Southern Region who get ticked off when they don't draw a Southern Region rifle tag and then see 'outsiders' from up north invading "their" mountains on the archery hunt. I attended 4 of the 5 RAC's and the Wildlife Board meeting last November. Only ONE archer stood up and agreed with doing away with statewide archery, ONE! The rest in favor of it were RIFLE hunters. And, unless the Dedicated Hunters are part of the "solution" nothing will change. I wish you guys on the committee good luck, I personally see it as futile and a waste of time. The Wildlife Board is anti-archery and they are going to do what they **** well want to regardless of what logic/facts/reason and the overwhelming majority of archers want. Even the Big Game Coordinator Anis Aoude does NOT see a biological need of any kind to limit archers to a region for even one day let alone 60% of the hunt. :? 

I have tried to give the RAC process a chance, and have been involved in numerous committees and attended numerous RAC meetings and Wildlife Board meetings. I am now of the opinion that it is little more than a farce when it comes to the public having a say in the process unless you are a friend of a Board member or you have something to offer that the Board members will personally gain from. I truly believe the welfare of the wildlife is nowhere near the top of the list of concerns by the Board. I have fought the fight, I truly hope you guys can get it done but I won't be holding my breath.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I was sitting at a RAC in Springville a few months back. The auditorium had maybe 30 people in it. Some guy came in and sat down next to me, like in the seat next to me. I felt crowded. 

Pro, you can't give up. You have seen average Joe Shmoe stand at the mic and actually get things passed. It is a long process at times, but good can come from it.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

"Choose your region" for archery deer is ridiculous. Open up the entire state for archery hunting.(except limited entry areas)


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Here is a message from one of the board members to me.



> I also think the Board did the right thing with statewide archery. This has been a problem that has been on going for many years and many sportsmen have demanded that something be done. I believe the Board listened to these complaints and made a very reasonable compromise by asking archers to pick a hunt for the first part of the season and then go statewide for the rest of the hunt. I remember a few years ago that archers where adamantly opposed to replacing AR301 with limited entry elk permits on all elk units in the state. However, I think archers would now agree that the Board did the right thing even though they were angry about the decision at the time


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## 2-Fer (Oct 29, 2007)

If I see one person it is too crowded. I will admit I don't like to see a bunch of people down here in the southern part of the state, but we are all hunters we should welcome each other. I may change my mind come the Sept. 23rd and Oct 17th  but for right now come one come all.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Packout said:


> Pro, you can't give up. You have seen average Joe Shmoe stand at the mic and actually get things passed. It is a long process at times, but good can come from it.


Sorry, but at this stage with what I am dealing with at home I am out of this game. When we have crooked Wildlife Board members like Keele Johnson, how can Joe Schmo expect to be considered as relevant?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> IEven the Big Game Coordinator Anis Aoude does NOT see a biological need of any kind to limit archers to a region for even one day let alone 60% of the hunt. :?
> 
> I have tried to give the RAC process a chance, and have been involved in numerous committees and attended numerous RAC meetings and Wildlife Board meetings. I am now of the opinion that it is little more than a farce when it comes to the public having a say in the process unless you are a friend of a Board member or you have something to offer that the Board members will personally gain from.


1) Is there a biological need to have LE hunting units? Aren't you the one that has argued that social needs are important management factors?

2) Wasn't it members of the general public who got the ball rolling on limiting the number of hunters in the south in the first place? So, doesn't the general public have a say...should the general public make all the decisions?

Come on Pro....you are acting like a little kid throwing a temper tantrum. Archers can still hunt statewide...they just have to wait a bit. And, I am 100% positive that if enough archers went to the various RACs and to the WB this will get changed back down the road. You remind me of Doug Mckenzie in the move Strange Brew--when the brakes go out in his van, he throws his arms up in the air and exclaims, "no sense in steering now!" Just because things haven't gone your way, doesn't mean there is no point in fighting battles...


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## legacy (Sep 30, 2007)

I hunted the southern opening weekend and did not see one other hunter the entire week! And I wasn't in the "back country" either. 5,600 hunters in the southern region does not sound like an "overcrowding" issue to me! Freak, there was 3,000 students in my high school! THAT, is "overcrowding"! Just because there was MORE hunters in the southern doesn't automatically mean that is was "overcrowded". What a freaking joke! I'm curious if the numbers really add up anyway - how much public / huntable ground is in the southern compared to other units such as the northern? I bet that if you took the hunter numbers and related them to actual public / huntable ground, the numbers might not look so skewed. Just a theory anyway.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

wyoming2utah said:


> 1) Is there a biological need to have LE hunting units? Aren't you the one that has argued that social needs are important management factors? Yes, but only to a point. The majority of those who showed up for the LE debate were in favor it, the same can NOT be said of either the restrictions placed on archers nor the statewide spike plan. It is a select few, mostly NON-archers that have pushed this on archers.
> 
> 2) Wasn't it members of the general public who got the ball rolling on limiting the number of hunters in the south in the first place? So, doesn't the general public have a say...should the general public make all the decisions? The DWR agreed to it based on biological reasons. Anis openly admitted there is absolutely NO biological reasons to restrict archers to a Region, and that there is no reasonable way to define over-crowding. Also, the Wildlife Board actually listened to feedback back then, now pinheads like Keele Johnson have no desire to listen to feedback.
> 
> Come on Pro....you are acting like a little kid throwing a temper tantrum. Archers can still hunt statewide...they just have to wait a bit. And, I am 100% positive that if enough archers went to the various RACs and to the WB this will get changed back down the road. You remind me of Doug Mckenzie in the move Strange Brew--when the brakes go out in his van, he throws his arms up in the air and exclaims, "no sense in steering now!" Just because things haven't gone your way, doesn't mean there is no point in fighting battles...Insult me all you want, but I have been right in the trenches for several years. Restricting archers for 60% of their hunt is STUPID and is catering to a SMALL minority of RIFLE hunters. I disagree with you being so positive, when members of the WB are openly anti-archery I have less faith in the 'system' than you do. When Wb members say they can/do ignore both the advice of the DWR biologists AND the public input AND the management plans in place, it makes it **** hard to "steer" the van. I never saw the movie, sounds like something contrived in Sevier County. :wink:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Wow, I guess "showing up" has lost it's value. :?: 

You've convinced me, I think I'll stay home. :shock:


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Wow, I guess "showing up" has lost it's value. :?:
> 
> You've convinced me, I think I'll stay home. :shock:


I say right off the bat that I wish you well. Maybe you missed that part. :? I tried it, and got nowhere. Maybe you'll have better results. I admit I'm jaded toward the whole process and have developed the belief that the RAC process is a farce, I truly hope you can prove me wrong. I failed, hopefully smarter folks like you will succeed. 8)


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

proutdoors said:


> Yes, but only to a point. The majority of those who showed up for the LE debate were in favor it, the same can NOT be said of either the restrictions placed on archers nor the statewide spike plan. It is a select few, mostly NON-archers that have pushed this on archers.[/color]


Pro, you keep saying that the majority of those who showed up for the LE debate were in favor of it...but you are forgetting that southern hunters have been pushing this for years. After hearing the same complaints for years, the Southern RAC finally had heard enough and decided to push for a change. They listened to what the public wanted....including the southern chapter of SFW! I can't blame them for that...it seems to me that you and others are putting the RAC members in a damned if they do and damned if they don't scenario. Damned if they listen; damned if they don't! I, too, am/was against the changes to the statewide archery; however, I can certainly see why the changes were made....how come the archers--myself included--haven't been voicing such strong opinions about our enjoyment of statewide archery over these same years that others have voiced their disapproval?

I think you have a seriously twisted viewpoint of the whole who shows up at the meetings concept. As I have said before, there are more ways of voicing your opinion to RAC members, WB members, and DWR employees than just by showing up to the RAC and WB meetings. Also, Regardless of what the "public" says at those meetings and through other means--telephone calls, emails, personal conversations etc--the RACs and WB are NOT supposed to blindly follow what the public wants. Their job is to consider what the public says...nothing more, nothing less.

Also, I never intended to insult you...I just pointed out that you are acting a bit extreme. It seems that you think that all your ideas should be followed and if they aren't, you throw a temper tantrum. Like it or not, but the RACs and WB probably SHOULDN'T always do what you want. Or what I want for that matter...


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

the pick your region didn't effect me!

The spike hunt is the battle we as bow hunters really lost!


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## Raptorman (Aug 18, 2009)

I may just be ignorant, but why would Southern Utah Rifle hunters care if the Archery hunt was statewide, if they are putting in for the Rifle hunt anyways. Not trying to argue anything just curious...


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

Because prior to making us pick a region they were jealous that anybody with a bow could come down to their backyard and hunt the very deer that they didn't draw a tag for.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Raptorman said:


> I may just be ignorant, but why would Southern Utah Rifle hunters care if the Archery hunt was statewide, if they are putting in for the Rifle hunt anyways. Not trying to argue anything just curious...


It's a mindset of: if we can't hunt 'our' region neither can anyone else. :?



wyoming2utah said:


> Pro, you keep saying that the majority of those who showed up for the LE debate were in favor of it...but you are forgetting that southern hunters have been pushing this for years. After hearing the same complaints for years, the Southern RAC finally had heard enough and decided to push for a change. They listened to what the public wanted....including the southern chapter of SFW! I can't blame them for that...it seems to me that you and others are putting the RAC members in a damned if they do and damned if they don't scenario. Damned if they listen; damned if they don't! I, too, am/was against the changes to the statewide archery; however, I can certainly see why the changes were made....how come the archers--myself included--haven't been voicing such strong opinions about our enjoyment of statewide archery over these same years that others have voiced their disapproval? Not true, it was ONE of over a dozen SFW chapters that 'pushed' this through. Tell me, why should ONE small group of 'sportsmen' over-rule a DOZEN+ others? Anis couldn't/wouldn't say who the DWR/WB were compromising with when I and others point blanked asked. The RAC members at the Southern RAC were cowards and didn't take a stand one way or the other. They passed it onto the WB. So, if this was/is such a hot topic in the Southern Region WTF did the RAC down there do a no vote on it? :? As for voicing our opinions, ironically the DWR did a survey last year on hunter satisfaction. The one group that rated their satisfaction the highest was the archers, AND they also were the most satisfied on how many hunters were in the field with them. Yet, the ONLY group that had major changes FORCED on them were archers. Go figure, if you dare say what you have is good others will be sure and take away so that you are as miserable as they are.
> 
> I think you have a seriously twisted viewpoint of the whole who shows up at the meetings concept. As I have said before, there are more ways of voicing your opinion to RAC members, WB members, and DWR employees than just by showing up to the RAC and WB meetings. Also, Regardless of what the "public" says at those meetings and through other means--telephone calls, emails, personal conversations etc--the RACs and WB are NOT supposed to blindly follow what the public wants. Their job is to consider what the public says...nothing more, nothing less. I asked Anis, and a couple of the WB members to their faces who was pushing this and how many were pushing it. I would get more direct/honest answers from Barak Obama than I got from the three of them. If they are not supposed to "blindly follow" what the public wants, WTH did they do it? :roll: Are they supposed to consider ALL public input, or just that of their friends and those who scratch their backs the most?
> 
> Also, I never intended to insult you...I just pointed out that you are acting a bit extreme. It seems that you think that all your ideas should be followed and if they aren't, you throw a temper tantrum. Like it or not, but the RACs and WB probably SHOULDN'T always do what you want. Or what I want for that matter... Not even close to the truth. I neither think all my ideas should be followed nor have I thrown a temper tantrum. I do however think the RAC's/WB should sincerely listen to ALL sides and THEN make decisions. It was very clear based on comments/actions from them that most had already made up their minds before the public was 'allowed' to voice their views. Not ONE single RAC member, DWR employee, or WB member could give even an estimate on what "over-crowding" meant/means, NOT ONE. As for "throwing a temper tantrum", if not being willing to spend my time/money/energy talking to pinheads who have no intent on listening to differing viewpoints is throwing a tantrum, then consider me guilty. But, if after hundreds of hours on committees, attending RAC/WB meetings, spending money out of my pocket, that could have been of better use to my family, on gas traveling all over the state, I am tired of the lack of progress made and after seeing clearly how the game is played and that if you're not on the right 'team' you are playing a losing game, is considered coming to ones senses, then that's what I am doing.


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## bonehead (Sep 24, 2008)

R NR Rifle
GN- NORTHERN 8309 211 
GN- NORTHEASTERN 12046 250
GN- CENTRAL 10526 300 
GN- SOUTHEASTERN 10187 
GN- SOUTHERN 11396 1724


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## Riverlution (Sep 23, 2008)

I understand some of the fuss but not all of it. The Archery Hunt in Utah sucks. You can debate deer and pretend the new pick your area thing hurts, but really why not fight for better dates on the pick your area. Ruttin Dates. Make me pick an area but give me a better chance at a good buck. I guess we better be careful because if the rifle guys hear that the archery guys are hunting during the rut they will start a limited entry deer hunt and kick us out. Just like the elk. 

I will take the northern area oh say November 12- 20th. I think that should do it. The muzzy guys used to get it. 

Utah DWR dislikes Archers. I think they always have and always will.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Riverlution said:


> Utah DWR dislikes Archers. I think they always have and always will.


I disagree. I haven't seen that anyways. I do believe the more vocal members of the Wildlife Board are anti-archery though!


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## Riverlution (Sep 23, 2008)

Pro,

Let me rephrase that the money means more than the archer. I believe this is all a play for more money. They now have the information they want to do a few things. A) Cap all areas to increease archery participation. Lets face reality, Every year the draw gets more and more powerful. Just like in sales the "I only have one left" strategy works. They will increase the number of archery tags per area to show that they have no real definition of what overcrowding is. Which will to some extent passify some of the noise. In so doing they will encourage guys to put archery as there second or third choice on applications for their desired area. This will increase the amount of money they get as soon as results are finalized. The WR wants the draw to finalize every hunt with no extra tags. This is the ideal.
I have no problem with ideal. They were already on the way. And it will allow them to open more tags thus increasing revenue. 

They might even go with the "second pole permit" type of thing. You can hunt maybe two regions but there will be a small fee. Again pacifying the few and increasing revenue. 


If they want more money quit sending the application fee to Neveda. That has to be good money. I will hand pick the draw winners from a barrel if need be for $5.00 and get in done in half the time. They can then keep the other $5.00. The fact that Utah can't keep this in house seems rediculous. $10 bones an application is a lot of money. Who knows how many apps are turned in every Year?


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

HJB said:


> Here's what the numbers will be like once the extended starts:
> S - 0
> SE - 0
> NE - 0
> ...


 :roll: I would guess that way less than 50% of archery hunters take advantage of the extended hunts. So you own the Northern area, you sound just as bad as the Southern boys that caused this mess. BTW I am not clumping all the Southern boys together, I know there were many that was against pick your region also. I would go as far as saying there are far less archery hunters in the extended hunts than during the regular season, no data to back it up, but just observations.

Also whoever pointed out the ESA analogy, that was excellent. I had never looked at it that way before. I hunter Thursday through Sunday and I saw maybe 15 hunters the whole time, including road hunters. The state is an awfully big area to spread out 19,000 people.


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## Califbowmen (Jul 1, 2008)

I just returned from a very frustrating archery hunt in the Southern Region. My group spent approximately $3500 on tags and license, $1200 on fuel and $700 on food and ice only to be confronted by hordes of idiots who were driving around with their truck radios blaring, drinking beer and throwing the cans out the window, and doing a piss poor job of bugling. I had people driving their trucks and atv's on roads and trails closed to all motor vehicles and was told that we locals can drive anywhere we want. I even had two different groups of hunters drive into an area that I had set up a blind on a waterhole in a roadlees area, stop and laugh at me while I sat in the blind. This year I even experienced having a road blocked by a vehicle to keep other hunters out of an area. I'll be going back next season with video camera at the ready, having already talked with the Forest Service and local county law enforcement.


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## havnfun (Dec 3, 2007)

Califbowmen said:


> I just returned from a very frustrating archery hunt in the Southern Region. My group spent approximately $3500 on tags and license, $1200 on fuel and $700 on food and ice only to be confronted by hordes of idiots who were driving around with their truck radios blaring, drinking beer and throwing the cans out the window, and doing a **** poor job of bugling. I had people driving their trucks and atv's on roads and trails closed to all motor vehicles and was told that we locals can drive anywhere we want. I even had two different groups of hunters drive into an area that I had set up a blind on a waterhole in a roadlees area, stop and laugh at me while I sat in the blind. This year I even experienced having a road blocked by a vehicle to keep other hunters out of an area. I'll be going back next season with video camera at the ready, having already talked with the Forest Service and local county law enforcement.


That sucks! No matter what region you are in. The few are going to hurt the many.

Good luck next time.


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## inbowrange (Sep 11, 2007)

If I ever found someone blocking an area with there vehicle, it would take everything in me to not flatten all 4 tires!!


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

Califbowmen said:


> I just returned from a very frustrating archery hunt in the Southern Region... This year I even experienced having a road blocked by a vehicle to keep other hunters out of an area. .


That truck didn't have a big "Mossback" sticker in the window or on the tailgate did it? Wouldn't be the first time I'ver heard this happening... but DM has been preoccupied in N UT chasing his moose...

I didn't like the "pick your region". I don't feel it benefits the wildlife or the archers. I believe that where there is a greater herd, there ought to be a greater number of predators... natural cycle happening here for hunters to go where the deer are...just look at the comparative numbers - deer vs archers in each region...
Heavens knows the Northern, N. Eastern and Central units have significantly lower deer herd numbers than the S and SE units, with archer success avging around 13% consistently over the past 15 years - regardless of technological advancements - all the while winter range habitat is being scarfed up by developers by the section in the N regions, compared to a large % of the S. and S.E regions being BLM and FS public lands...

I agree there ought to be a late archery season in other regions than Central. I would like to see either an option for splitting the Ar. deer into 15 days in Aug and 15 in Nov... I would absolutely love that option!

If the spike/cow and gen elk season were put to the first of Sept, and the archery deer hunt was all that was going on for the last half of Aug, I think people wouldn't flock to the S region for deer because they wouldn't feel crowded out of their own region - speaking for myself anyway. I invite you southern archers who complain about overcrowding to go to the Cache area and try to find an open piece of water or a hunterless ridge in the N region opening weekend when both elk and deer seasons are going on... and good luck!


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

I hunted 3 different areas in Southern Utah for 16 days. Have hunted in these 3 areas for 45 years, If the deer populations get any worse. they.. the DWR should really think about shutting these areas down for a few years, I know that ain't a gonna happen. As for putting a limit on the amount of hunters down south. all you got to do is wait 4 days until the road hunters, all the partying beer drinkers, all the loud steros in camp. and knuckle heads go home, and you just about have the mountain to your self. Just my opnion.


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