# Wasatch... How is it really?



## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

So going into the draw, I am right on the cusp of drawing this tag. Looking at the data there are alot of older bulls (age results). That being said, looks like alot of good bulls were killed on the archery and the early rifle. Didnt hear alot or see many late season bulls. 

So my question is this. How really is the Wasatch going to be this year? Just looking for a good 300 to 320ish bull. Worth putting in or just getting another point for next year for a better unit? 

Thanks guys!


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

tallbuck said:


> So going into the draw, I am right on the cusp of drawing this tag. Looking at the data there are alot of older bulls (age results). That being said, looks like alot of good bulls were killed on the archery and the early rifle. Didnt hear alot or see many late season bulls.
> 
> So my question is this. How really is the Wasatch going to be this year? Just looking for a good 300 to 320ish bull.
> 
> Thanks guys!


A 300 - 320 bull is still very do able on the unit. The last 2 years the cows have absolutely been slaughtered on the unit. This year you will definitely see the repercussions from that. I am glad the dwr has come to their senses and it sounds like they are going to let the herd rebound a bit.
I have a cabin right in the middle of the unit near current creek and I am up there just about every weekend glassing hiking scouting winter through summer. And you can definitely see a huge difference with the elk population you will get your occasionall weekend warrior fall into a big herd once a year and he will come on here and say you just have to get off the roads but I can tell you that is not the case numbers are down
with the cows as they have been the last few years the bulls take a few years to reflect that but I think this year will start the downhill spiral.
there Is a local guide that comes on here a bit( used to any ways where at bb) I am sure he would agree last year's bull hunts were tougher to fill tags then years past. 
Imo opinion the wasatch is so popular because it is close to salt lake. There are better elk hunting options out there as of now. with points burned playing into that equation. Is it all doom and gloom no still some good bulls to be had. But it's definitely not even close to what it was even 3 years ago especially not 5-10 years ago


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## kdinkel (Oct 29, 2014)

Had a friend get a 360 last year on the muzzy and saw a few 340 while he was there. I think a 300-320 is certainly possible.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

We did pretty well last year across all the seasons. Elk numbers are down without a doubt, but good bulls are still there

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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Awesome pics berry did you guys fill all tags last year I heard last year was the first time in along time you guys didn't do a full sweep 100%. All the more reason to hire you guys because I seen alot of l.e tag holders through out all seasons go home empty. You could see the panic on their face the last couple of days of their hunts. And their routinely where are all the elk questions


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

In my opinion,
Not going to be very fun chasing a few isolated bulls around with almost no cows..

While Killing a 300+ bull will still be possible on the Wasatch for 2016,
that realization will become much LESS likely over the next few years....
This will make for a very poor LE hunting experience for Wasatch elk........................


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

berrysblaster said:


> We did pretty well last year across all the seasons. Elk numbers are down without a doubt, but good bulls are still there
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Berry, Thanks for the awesome pics! Gets my hopes up... oh the decisions, decisions!


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

hazmat said:


> Awesome pics berry did you guys fill all tags last year I heard last year was the first time in along time you guys didn't do a full sweep 100%. All the more reason to hire you guys because I seen alot of l.e tag holders through out all seasons go home empty. You could see the panic on their face the last couple of days of their hunts. And their routinely where are all the elk questions


We sent a rifle hunter home with out a bull, he killed this bull we think, knocked him a$$ over tea kettle and was down for 10 minutes head on the ground. We were making plans to go get him and someone said 'hey he's up' sure enough he was up and hunter wasn't in a position to shoot. Bull went over the hill and we lost the trail about a half mile later. Spent the next month looking for birds and grid searching but found nothing. We found what we thought was sign of gut shot, but wouldn't be surprised if he grazed the skull and knocked the sucker out.










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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> In my opinion,
> Not going to be very fun chasing a few isolated bulls around with almost no cows..
> 
> While Killing a 300+ bull will still be possible on the Wasatch for 2016,
> ...


Well said goofy even though it sucks because I love the wasatch there just simply are better options out there if you are burning a decent amount of points. Manti definitely being one with close to the same draw odds imo


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

We saw a 280 bull yesterday morning on our way to Park city.
Broken front leg, standing on the highway above the Sundance turn off.

A patrolman directing traffic around it.
I'm sure they had to put it down.
And it's the only bull we have seen in Provo canyon all winter,
Past winters we have seen quite a few, Not this year.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> And it's the only bull we have seen in Provo canyon all winter,
> Past winters we have seen quite a few, Not this year.


2 weeks ago we went up ice fishing, right at the area you describe were 7 bulls bedded down right off the road on that west hillside. That was the same trip we watched the father / son shoot cows on the CC unit, in the area people say no elk exist.

I personally saw more bulls, and bigger bulls, this past year than I ever have on the Wasatch. Personally I believe there are more elk than people realize, and that they are now into new areas they haven't frequented before. That makes it appear to be alot less because people "don't see them where we normally have".

-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

While yes Dallan, there are a few areas still holding decant elk on the Wasatch,

I ask you , were are the huge wintering herds that should be in Diamond Fork,
Teat Mountain, Sheep Creek, Tie Fork, Avintiquin???

Or the numbers on Maple mountain/Springville canyon? 1/4 the elk from 3 years ago.

The Wasatch is a very big unit.
While numbers may be OK in your corner Dallan,
I can assure you, most of the unit right now is hurting for elk numbers big time.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

If you know the unit and understand where the elk live in September then you should easily be able to kill a 300-320 bull with the chance at something larger. If you like the Wasatch and it offers you the chance to scout and enjoy all the parts of having a rut tag then go for it. 

Of course the unit is not what it was 10 years ago and it will most likely get worse before it gets better. But the bull you want to kill was born 6+ years ago. He and some of his buddies are there to chase. It won't be as easy as it was a decade ago, but it is still doable.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

DallanC said:


> 2 weeks ago we went up ice fishing, right at the area you describe were 7 bulls bedded down right off the road on that west hillside. That was the same trip we watched the father / son shoot cows on the CC unit, in the area people say no elk exist.
> 
> I personally saw more bulls, and bigger bulls, this past year than I ever have on the Wasatch. Personally I believe there are more elk than people realize, and that they are now into new areas they haven't frequented before. That makes it appear to be alot less because people "don't see them where we normally have".
> 
> -DallanC


There used to be tons of elk in that exact same spot where they shot that lone cow and calf with those bulls. 3 years ago you would have seen 200 plus cows and multiple multiple bulls. Think about how big that canyon is and how much country is nearby a herd of 7 is not that impressive at all. And yes They have adapted to all the hunting pressure they get from August until February they go onto private property. Imo it's a combination that I would not waist a whole lot of points on the unit .declining elk numbers, non stop hunting pressure pushing them on private property. And the better quality of a surrounding unit


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> While yes Dallan, there are a few areas still holding decant elk on the Wasatch,
> 
> I ask you , were are the huge wintering herds that should be in Diamond Fork,
> Teat Mountain, Sheep Creek, Tie Fork, Avintiquin???
> ...


Current creek is not in much better shape. It's pretty bad when you have guides that spend everyday up there. pop in your camp for a 20 minute conversation explaining their frustrations with the lack of elk


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Dead horse gents dead horse! We will have a rep in the chopper on Wednesday when it flys the west side of the unit, so I'll let ya know if us sportsmen are just lazy piles of worthless hunter or if we have a numbers problem!


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## Blackie6 (Jul 7, 2014)

I spend a lot of time on timp and have a few descents areas that I always find Bulls. But the last 2 years the elk are starting to be more spread out and harder to find.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

berrysblaster said:


> Dead horse gents dead horse! We will have a rep in the chopper on Wednesday when it flys the west side of the unit, so I'll let ya know if us sportsmen are just lazy piles of worthless hunter or if we have a numbers problem!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the update keep us posted


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

berrysblaster said:


> Dead horse gents dead horse! We will have a rep in the chopper on Wednesday when it flys the west side of the unit, so I'll let ya know if us sportsmen are just lazy piles of worthless hunter or if we have a numbers problem!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Video with Wednesdays SL Trib in the image or some won't believe.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> Video with Wednesdays SL Trib in the image or some won't believe.


In the image????


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Here's the deal: the question is if a 300-320 bull is a realistic possibility, or should the OP wait for another unit. Yes, there are better units out there. Yes, the unit has taken a down turn. Yes, they shot out the cows and the future is uncertain. But are you Wasatch regulars really going to say that a 300-320 bull is not a realistic possibility?

I am not nearly as experienced as many on here on the unit. I would be 100% confident in my ability to go kill a 300+ bull in any hunt season except the archery without even scouting and just using prior knowledge from being up on a couple hunts in the past. The late hunt may give me a little more trouble just because I might need a day or two just to figure out where the bulls went and I have never been up there at that time. But I still think I could do it. Of course, it's still hunting and there aren't 320 bulls on every ridge. But come on guys! For his specific question, I don't think you're giving him a fair or honest answer. 

Average age class of bulls killed have exceeded objective for several years now. I would bet 2015 will be the same. While I will readily admit that the unit has been hammered and there need to be changes, I would say that if you want to hunt next year and your goal is a 300+ bull...I think you can do it on the Wasatch. 

How many points you got?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> For his specific question, I don't think you're giving him a fair or honest answer.


What?
I think you better go back and re-reed every post on this thread TS.
Because I think its presents a completely honest answer.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Another issue regarding Wasatch LE bull elk,

Past years, this unit was supporting close to 800 LE bull permits for elk.

There is no question in my mind, this number is about to change.

Coming years will offer fewer permits, this will impact draw odds,
And result in fewer hunters moving threw the elk point pool.


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## Mallardhead12 (Oct 17, 2011)

We hunt the Wasatch every year and always see good bulls. Put some scouting and time in and you will find some nice bulls.

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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Mallardhead12 said:


> We hunt the Wasatch every year and always see good bulls. Put some scouting and time in and you will find some nice bulls.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


Yup just get off the road thete are bulls everywhere that justify spending your hard earned points on. You guys are just lazy I go up there once a year for hunting and 2 camping trips a year I know this unit very well. (Sarcasm and not directed directly at you mallardhead).

I want to know from these guys who claim everybody else is just lazy and not as committed as them .who also say there are no reason for concern about the wasatch elk herd. How much time you actually spend watching the herds during the winter time and pay attention what is going on year around.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

You might be waiting a long time for an answer because I can't see where anyone played a lazy or uncommitted card. 

Why would people need to watch herds on the winter range? We hunt them in the Fall. Most people recognize things have changed-- either in the way of lower numbers, herd distribution or both. Personally, I think it is both. But last Fall, just like for the past 30 years (yes- even before it was made LE), I have been able to see multiple herds of elk on the Wasatch. Numbers fluctuate, but there are 300"+ bulls to hunt, bugle, chase, kill, and enjoy watching. 

Can't wait to hear the report from Berry! Looks like it could be a great day to fly-- just need some of the low level clouds to blow out and it will be perfect.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Sorry but I have to laugh. every one is saying that the cow hunts hurt the unit. But i have to say why has not body said anything about the big bulls, cow being poached as well that not helping that unit out.


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## Mallardhead12 (Oct 17, 2011)

hazmat said:


> Yup just get off the road thete are bulls everywhere that justify spending your hard earned points on. You guys are just lazy I go up there once a year for hunting and 2 camping trips a year I know this unit very well. (Sarcasm and not directed directly at you mallardhead).
> 
> I want to know from these guys who claim everybody else is just lazy and not as committed as them .who also say there are no reason for concern about the wasatch elk herd. How much time you actually spend watching the herds during the winter time and pay attention what is going on year around.


Sorry if I came across as that way. I'm definitely concerned for the elk up there but I'm just saying from my experience there is still some good bulls on the wasatch. I scout the area often and even during spike season see some nice bulls just wandering around. I've also taken part in 3 LE hunts in the last 4 years on the unit.

I wasn't trying to come across as I'm an expert and you're all lazy, just trying to put in my 2 cents from my experience on the unit. Sorry about that. 

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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

The wasatch is a HUGE area, look at the map, it probably should be broken up into smaller units. Elk herds on the eastern side are going to be much different than those on the west. I doubt populations are dramatically down everywhere... but I definitely think some areas are really hurting.


-DallanC


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> Dead horse gents dead horse! We will have a rep in the chopper on Wednesday when it flys the west side of the unit, so I'll let ya know if us sportsmen are just lazy piles of worthless hunter or if we have a numbers problem!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Make sure they buzz Wolf Creek Ranches....and count all those elk holed up there...


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Mallardhead12 said:


> Sorry if I came across as that way. I'm definitely concerned for the elk up there but I'm just saying from my experience there is still some good bulls on the wasatch. I scout the area often and even during spike season see some nice bulls just wandering around. I've also taken part in 3 LE hunts in the last 4 years on the unit.
> 
> I wasn't trying to come across as I'm an expert and you're all lazy, just trying to put in my 2 cents from my experience on the unit. Sorry about that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


No problem I wasn't referring to your post as much as all of the other post/threads out there claiming people are just lazy that's why they don't see elk.
I agree Dallan the wasatch is to big of a unit as is. to effectively manage. Some spots are hurting others are fine. The dwr should break it up into 2 maybe even 3 separate units


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

On another note here is a bull that definitely made it because I seen him just this morning. Pic is from the fall


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

hazmat said:


> On another note here is a bull that definitely made it because I seen him just this morning. Pic is from the fall


That's a hogggggggggg!!

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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

berrysblaster said:


> That's a hogggggggggg!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya he is impressive he looks nice and healthy so far this winter


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## Mallardhead12 (Oct 17, 2011)

Better grab his sheds here in a little bit

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Hazmat...that bull is a dandy! Holy crap he's a big one. Nice find. 

Goof, the question was would a hunter have a realistic chance at a 300-320 bull next year. He's not asking for a guarantee or if the unit is what it once was. So...is it a realistic possibility, or not? I say yes. What say ye?


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> Hazmat...that bull is a dandy! Holy crap he's a big one. Nice find.
> 
> Goof, the question was would a hunter have a realistic chance at a 300-320 bull next year. He's not asking for a guarantee or if the unit is what it once was. So...is it a realistic possibility, or not? I say yes. What say ye?


Thanks vanilla I think its a touchy subject for goofy that he seams passionate about.i know it is for me.I have a hard time watching this unit go down hill. And i come on here to vent about it a little and to make other hunters who have very high expectations aware of the situation

. Dead horse probably but I know one thing guys like goofy and others on here got the dwr's attention on the matter and hopefully helped the future of the herd a little. Besides it brings life to the forum that can be slow this time of year.

Still good bulls on the unit yes are 300-320" bull still do able yes maybe a bit harder these days

The days of having a non stop action passing on multiple multiple bulls choosing between numerous 340-350 bulls are coming to an end imo. the animals are more privy to the private ground due to the non stop hunting and there are fewer of them.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

My opinion........Wasatch Unit 300-320.......very doable with an appropriate amount of effort. Between deer and elk I spent most of last summer and fall on several areas of the Wasatch. I saw many Bulls in this range fairly routinely. Now, the guys looking for 350"+ would have a much bigger challenge ahead of them. I think that 300-320 is a good mark for the Wasatch currently......and 300-320 is a great bull that will make an awesome trophy to look at for years to come. -------SS


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Hazmat...that bull is a dandy! Holy crap he's a big one. Nice find.
> 
> Goof, the question was would a hunter have a realistic chance at a 300-320 bull next year. He's not asking for a guarantee or if the unit is what it once was. So...is it a realistic possibility, or not? I say yes. What say ye?


Well TS,
I say read page 1......Post #6, I put up yesterday.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I stand corrected for your statement, Goof.


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

Guys, Thanks for the great conversation... Sorry for stirring up the pot of the Wasatch Elk. I think it is great that there are so many great opinions and love for the wasatch. 

I have 5 points this year and hoping they will keep the tag quota up for archery. With the age class still up i am assuming they will, and that next year or the year after the age class will come down and tag numbers change drastically! 


Again, thanks for all the help!


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

Tallbuck,
I also have a buddy with 5 points hoping to cash in this year as well. I keep thinking about going for the Manti but in his situation and with my knowledge from 2 LE archery hunts on it it will be hard to leave the snatch. I have seen plenty of elk over the last 5 years hunting the area to know it isn't a bad place to spend 5 points. you will be waiting far to long to jump to a unit that is a considerable upgrade for the archery hunt IMO. 

And as many have stated the time we will be able to spend early season is a huge bonus compared to a comparable unit down south. Scouting for these tags is where all of the fun is. Once the opening bell rings it is fun but the added pressure is certainly felt.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

2250 head flights about over


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'd be curious to see what the flight path is over that unit... being such a huge unit.


-DallanC


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Interesting......

The objective on the Wasatch is 5,400...

The DWR was working off a number close to 8K for issuing tags if I'm not mistaken?


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

250 bulls 2000 cows roughly speakibg


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Flight was Wasatch west the objective there is 2600 meaning they are at or just below objective on that part of the unit


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Are they going to fly the Currant Creek portion too?


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Berry- thanks for the info. You said you know someone who was there for the ride-along? That is good. I also would be interested in the flight path and how they flew the Front areas. 

If they physically counted 2,250ish elk then there is usually some kind of "percentage counted rate" they use -- so if they figure they missed 10-20% of the elk then they will add the missed number back onto the total for their population estimate. Sounds like they are close to winter population objective for the Wasatch West portion of the Wasatch. 

Just for fun- lets take the 2,000ish antlerless they counted and figure 60% were mature cows so 1,200 cows. Those 1,200 cows will produce over 600 calves. so now they have to reduce the overall herd by 600 to stay within winter population objective. Add up the bull harvest, spike harvest, roadkill, mortality, etc and are left with the number of cows that must be killed. Then you take past success rates and issue antlerless permits based off those rates. For example to kill 200 cows on a hunt with 33% success they issue 600 permits.

And that all works if those animals are in the unit during the Fall hunts. If....


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Stole this from UBA's facebook page. They posted a bunch of pics too.

"I went for a ride with DWR biologist Dale Liechty today to survey the elk situation on the Wasatch elk unit. This was not an official census, but rather flew a portion of the Wasatch West unit. We started at about Sheep Creek, flew down Spanish Fork Canyon through a little bit of Diamond Fork, across the face from US-6 to Provo Canyon, up South Fork, through Wallsburg, around Heber, and part of Daniels Canyon. We saw approximately 2000 cows/calves and 350 bulls. To put that into perspective, the population objective for the Wasatch Mountains, West management unit is 2600 elk. There is a lot of elk habitat in the unit that we did not cover. In addition to elk, we saw deer, moose, bighorn sheep, coyotes, red fox, chuckars, rabbits, and bald eagles."


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

It was a fun flight. Paul, Dale, Greg, and Skip were good company.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1065176403532740&id=207833392600383


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

silentstalker said:


> "We saw approximately 2000 cows/calves and 350 bulls. To put that into perspective, the population objective for the Wasatch Mountains, West management unit is 2600 elk. There is a lot of elk habitat in the unit that we did not cover.


That's nice to hear. Now, if the elk would just get back into Diamond Fork where we used to find them, we'd be all set.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

So below average of 250 animals with hunts still going. I am glad they are putting effort into the unit and also curious if you guys are going to fly current creek and Avintiquin. 
This unit is proving way to big to manage for the dwr. With all of the private property herds and fluctuating herd numbers 

To go from being waaaaay over objective to under in such a short span something needs to change


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

This was a really good number to get, it means no one was right, but no one was wrong either. The dispersal of the herds suggests exactly what the sportsmen are seeing.

With more and more head way being made towards an increased planned objective there is very little incentive to having many, if any cow hunts in the near future.

I'm not aware of any flights for the current creek side of the unit.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

berrysblaster said:


> This was a really good number to get, it means no one was right, but no one was wrong either. The dispersal of the herds suggests exactly what the sportsmen are seeing.
> 
> With more and more head way being made towards an increased planned objective there is very little incentive to having many, if any cow hunts in the near future.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all you do berry blaster hopefully they can nail this thing down . get the numbers up a bit and come up with a solution for the large private property parcels that hold alot of these elk on the unit


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## Rspeters (Apr 4, 2013)

berrysblaster said:


> This was a really good number to get


And for that reason alone, this count has me a bit skeptical.

However, I did see a pretty good-sized bull on the mountainside today near Springville.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Rspeters said:


> And for that reason alone, this count has me a bit skeptical.
> 
> However, I did see a pretty good-sized bull on the mountainside today near Springville.


What has you skeptical?

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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

hazmat said:


> So below average of 250 animals with hunts still going. I am glad they are putting effort into the unit and also curious if you guys are going to fly current creek and Avintiquin.
> This unit is proving way to big to manage for the dwr. With all of the private property herds and fluctuating herd numbers
> 
> To go from being waaaaay over objective to under in such a short span something needs to change


And winter kill that is coming to peak season.


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## alpinebowman (Sep 24, 2007)

Hazmat i don't think elk have near the winter kill of deer. Even a calf is far more hearty than a mature doe.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Ben and Berry-- thanks for the update.

I'd say it proves the UDWR right on their winter counts on the Wasatch West. Around 2,400 animals and they only flew approx half of the elk habitat on the Wasatch West. Take Timp, Traverse, Alpine, AF Canyon, the Front, and all the draws they missed in the general areas they flew and I'd bet you could easily throw another 1,000 head on that count. Bulls are harder to count than cows, so the actual number of bulls would increase by a high percentage.

I'd like to see them use some more tracking studies to see the general movements of elk to where they migrate summer/winter. I'm just glad the UDWR took some riders along to show them what they see, because many people claim there are very few elk on the unit-- even in the winter. 

Back to the original post-- yep, you can kill a 300+ bull if you know how to hunt elk and judge elk.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

alpinebowman said:


> Hazmat i don't think elk have near the winter kill of deer. Even a calf is far more hearty than a mature doe.


I know alpinebowman elk are more adapt but take into consideration road kill low level grazing disease predators on weak sick old animals a long cold winter .and still a bunch of cow permits to be hunted with it all adds up. I have came across plenty of calf cow and bull carcasses cone spring time.

In my eyes these numbers are not horrible but they are not good either alot of the wasatch elk hang out on private lands during the summer so that drops the number of elk accessible to the public hunter even more.
Just saying winter is not over yet


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Packout said:


> Ben and Berry-- thanks for the update.
> 
> I'd say it proves the UDWR right on their winter counts on the Wasatch West. Around 2,400 animals and they only flew approx half of the elk habitat on the Wasatch West. Take Timp, Traverse, Alpine, AF Canyon, the Front, and all the draws they missed in the general areas they flew and I'd bet you could easily throw another 1,000 head on that count. Bulls are harder to count than cows, so the actual number of bulls would increase by a high percentage.
> 
> ...


I'd have to think 1000 to be a touch high, my fathers count from the chopper was 2250+or- a few, given what they saw, and where they saw I'd guess the number to be right at objective. That's including elk not counted on timp and surrounding areas. 1300 of the elk counted were above springville and Provo, another 4-500 in the heber valley. Spanish fork canyon had 30 head in it south fork 70ish so given that I'd have to go with the idea that timp is probably harboring 200ish head if that. The number is short of what estimates have it at, and greater than hunters give it credit for.

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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I think you are correct that 1,000 more is a little high. I forgot that the Front is not part of the Wasatch West elk unit (and was figuring around 200+ elk on it).

Ok, so Timp has around 200. Alpine/Traverse has around 150+, AF Canyon probably has another hundred. (These are areas I am familiar with) There is no way they covered all the draws, in the areas they flew, on a half-day trip. So if they missed 20% that is an additional 400+ head. If they missed 10% that is an additional 200+. That is around 600-800 more elk. Even a conservative number would easily place the herd above the objective. Now how many are there in Aug-Nov.......

Appreciate you posting the info.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Packout said:


> I think you are correct that 1,000 more is a little high. I forgot that the Front is not part of the Wasatch West elk unit (and was figuring around 200+ elk on it).
> 
> Ok, so Timp has around 200. Alpine/Traverse has around 150+, AF Canyon probably has another hundred. (These are areas I am familiar with) There is no way they covered all the draws, in the areas they flew, on a half-day trip. So if they missed 20% that is an additional 400+ head. If they missed 10% that is an additional 200+. That is around 600-800 more elk. Even a conservative number would easily place the herd above the objective. Now how many are there in Aug-Nov.......
> 
> Appreciate you posting the info.


That's the problem pack out if your gonna do a probably x amount in this draw probably x amount in this canyon. It is very easy to say over a thousand spend their time on private grounds all summer and never see a sole as far as public hunters that would put the unit under objective

The problem I have with the way this whole issue has gone is one they sale the depredation tags not knowing what their total number of tags sold or what percent of animals harvested are going to be
.and on top of that they still kept their antlerless draw tags at a high number complete over reaction by the dwr

Two is they started this from complaints from ranchers and winter land concerns.
well some of these ranchers happen to own property that sit right by elk preserves like wolf creek ranch and victory ranch that offer no public draw tags I think victory has some hunts but I know wolf creek is nothing but a preserve the elk up there act like zoo animals and there are easily over 500 head there alone. Guess where those elk go in the winter and guess what elk get thrown into the objective number

Three being how does the dwr not realize they can not manage a unit this big effectively . Especially with it bordering the urban areas that it does break it up into a couple differant units. Not one dwr will ever convince me they don't have enough winter grounds in the starvation Avintiquin tabby mt areas


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Packout said:


> Ok, so Timp has around 200. Alpine/Traverse has around 150+, AF Canyon probably has another hundred. (These are areas I am familiar with) There is no way they covered all the draws, in the areas they flew, on a half-day trip. So if they missed 20% that is an additional 400+ head. If they missed 10% that is an additional 200+. That is around 600-800 more elk. Even a conservative number would easily place the herd above the objective. Now how many are there in Aug-Nov.......
> 
> Appreciate you posting the info.


I was just going to post almost identical numbers for Alpine/Af/Timp. Also missing is the herd on the west side of deer creek up near Cascade. Who knows how many more north of heber on the west side of the wasatch unit.

-DallanC


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

DallanC said:


> I was just going to post almost identical numbers for Alpine/Af/Timp. Also missing is the herd on the west side of deer creek up near Cascade. Who knows how many more north of heber on the west side of the wasatch unit.
> 
> -DallanC


Those were included in the flight as I understood it. Archer Ben may shed some light on that if I'm wrong but the flight went up Provo canyon counting those elk on both sides(not many as I understood it) and then into the Heber valley and surrounding areas including the private on the north side of heber.

Again, just my opinion but with the exception of the large herds above southern Utah valley and heber, there were very few elk to be found. This would leave me to believe that Timp is harboring far fewer elk then you guys would like to believe. When I say timp, I'm referring to AF canyon, and alpine as well. I'm just going off of what I was told by my father, but I really struggle to see this herd being larger than objective. Sightability was very high, and elk were only found in large numbers near large tracts of private. Again this is just my assumption but I'm basing it off of a lot of evidence from elsewhere. Public land elk have been hammered in the unit. It shows in every aspect that one would look at to determine the health of the unit.

Not here to start an argument and I'm far more optimistic then some about where the Wasatch is right now, but I'm also not sunshine and daisies like others are.

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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

30 elk in Spanish fork canyon? Pathetic!

The biggest management problem now is the herd objective number one the Wasatch.
2600 on the West portion....!....
Should be more like at least 4000.

We certainly now it will support that as it had to of been around 5000 for over a decade.


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

We did not touch anything north of the the highway in Provo canyon. The only piece of provo canyon we spent any time in was south fork. That leaves all of Timp, AF Canyon, Traverse Mountain, Alpine, Park City, Cascade, the upper portion of Daniel's, and the upper portion of Spanish Fork Canyon unsurveyed. 

Please realize that while sight ability was good, this flight was not a census flight. When The DWR does a census, they spend four days flying the Wasatch Mtns, West unit alone. That does not include the Currant Creek or Avintaquin units. We were only in the air for about five hours. Considering the amount of ground that we didn't cover, combined with the non-census nature of the flight, I have no doubt that this unit is over objective. 

To me, the real issues have nothing to do with the current population. The real issues are two-fold:

1- Are the elk available to the public? I believe this has become an issue on this unit. There are some new strategies in the new elk plan that I believe, once implemented, will help fix this.

2- What should the population objective be? Last year the Wasatch Elk Committee voted to raise the objective. This has not happened yet. Hopefully we can make this happen soon.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Ben- Thanks for sharing more info. Interesting how two guys on the same flight can come away with such different opinions. From what I know about fights and the areas they didn't fly, there is no way that the Wasatch West is under its winter population objective. That does not mean everything is rosy, but it is better than some of the doomsdayers would have people believe. 

I do think (and you can see my comments on public record over the last 8 years) that there is an issue of where the elk are when we are trying to kill them. There are ways to move elk during hunting seasons-- problem is many hunters feel jealous when the alternatives are talked about. I know that for a fact because I was working on the Elk Committee and saw ideas of helping public lands herds which were shot down because of simple jealousy. 

Elk respond to pressure. Give incentives to private land owners so they will kill elk on their private lands. Killing more elk on limited access private lands would result in fewer elk killed on public lands, causing the public lands herds to grow. Killing elk on the private lands will move the elk to public lands. Set seasons which will encourage elk to hold on public lands. 

As for the population objective-- the grazing permits up AF/Alpine/Timp/Provo have been retired so there should be more forage for wildlife on those ranges. Just as long as the elk don't eat the deer....


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

Just so we are clear, I was not on the flight! I'm takin what my father saw, where he saw them, and extrapolating on that with what I believe based off of success rates and how they correlate with population trends. This is my opinion not anyone else's.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I've watched these numbers roll out with great interest. They "prove" (whatever that means...) that there are a lot more elk than some people have stated. They also show why hunters are having a pretty terrible go at these cow hunts. They prove that although the numbers are still there overall, there are still major issues around the unit. 

This is quite the conundrum, if you ask me. You have a unit that a flight shows is at or exceeds population objectives, which if the objective holds, requires the DWR to attempt to reduce the number. You have hunters that can't find elk because they are holed up on mostly private grounds. You have proposals to eliminate OTC tags and severely limit draw tags, but they can't 'legally' do that unless the objective is raised. That opens up another whole can of worms dealing with other stakeholders. You have proposals to create these private land hunts that will hopefully accomplish not only hunters getting realistic chances to fill these tags, but also pushing the elk off private grounds...yet this is entirely dependent on those landowners going along. Will they? And if they do, will it be in numbers enough to even make a lick of difference? 

I don't envy the decision makers on this one. There are no easy answers to these very real issue for the unit. People smarter than I will have to figure this one out.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Well, The answer to this problem is quite simple TS,,IMO.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just let the elk herd size grow back to what it was from 1999 through 2011...

Public hunting areas in the Wasatch will fill back up with elk nicely........:grin:....;-).


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I am all for that, Goof! But that is going to be FAR from easy to accomplish.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

Isn't a huge part of the objective to grow more deer on the Wasatch? Do you guys that want the elk herd at maximum capacity actually think that having both is possible? I keep hearing how the elk herd is "hurting". I don't think some of you know what hurting means. 

Maybe it should be turned back into a general unit?


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## utarchery (Jun 18, 2013)

Nobody mentioned the herd out in the red creek/tabby mtn area and that is where the biggest concentration of elk is in the whole wasatch unit. IMO


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## GSPonPoint (Sep 24, 2008)

Over the past 11 years I'd say I've seen a slow decline in elk number in the area I hunt, however, last year was a very dramatic drop off. In years past I would easily see 100-150 cows each year, last year maybe 30. The few groups I saw had 4-6 cows each with a loner here and there. The DWR for the past 2 years have issued unlimited anterless control tags on top of all the numerous normal cow tags. Last year I saw the effects of the 1 year of control tags this year I would expect to see similar numbers. If this trend continues in my opinion it will be devastating. 
Regarding bulls, my experience last year was not not much change in bull numbers, however, with the decreased cow numbers we should start to see the bull numbers drop off. I seen a good number of nice bulls last year that I'd expect had no chance to pass along their seed simply due to a shortage in females. 
That's my take on the current state of the Wasatch.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Do you know how many control tags were actually filled?


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