# Friendly Comparison



## chuck harsin (May 1, 2011)

I Don't get on here much anymore but I've been doing some reading today about how much better a riveted boat performs shallow because it's lighter than a welded. I don't a agree as it depends what kind of welded boat is it. MY SOLUTION: Lets have ourselves a dig out contest!!!!!!! We can meet out at the spur and set up a timed course starting in shallow running to deeper. Say first one to dig out from start point to 50 yards. Anyone is welcome to complete or just watch a good time. If I win or one of my boats does somebody has to write about it on here and post photos. If you beat me or one of my boats with a rivet boat I will give the top three guys that can beat a Widow Maker out of the hole $50 off anything in the shop!!!!! That's a no brainer! Who's in? I think a Saturday soon Maybe next Weekend? 4/11/15? 

Friendly as it gets I am really curious!!


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## duckilla (Nov 20, 2014)

I don't think either one will win because there is no water at the spur to even race on. If there was though my money is on riveted boat depending on what kind of mud motor is being used cause I think that matters as well along with some other variables.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

chuck harsin said:


> I Don't get on here much anymore but I've been doing some reading today about how much better a riveted boat performs shallow because it's lighter than a welded. I don't a agree as it depends what kind of welded boat is it. MY SOLUTION: Lets have ourselves a dig out contest!!!!!!! We can meet out at the spur and set up a timed course starting in shallow running to deeper. Say first one to dig out from start point to 50 yards. Anyone is welcome to complete or just watch a good time. If I win or one of my boats does somebody has to write about it on here and post photos. If you beat me or one of my boats with a rivet boat I will give the top three guys that can beat a Widow Maker out of the hole $50 off anything in the shop!!!!! That's a no brainer! Who's in? I think a Saturday soon Maybe next Weekend? 4/11/15?
> 
> Friendly as it gets I am really curious!!


I don't know much about boats but it would seem to me that the boat configuration and size of the motor would be a big influence on how it performs in specific situations...but that's just an uneducated person with no degrees talking.


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## chuck harsin (May 1, 2011)

Motor size is not necessarily relevant as no matter how much HP you have if your boat isn't floating and or you can't get traction you will go no-where. Really the more hp you have the heavier the rig so it should be a handicap. There are many variables as to what makes a shallow water machine excel at its job. That's my point, just because one is welded doesn't mean it won't spank the pants off of a riveted boat in shallow water or maybe it does. Its more than just weight...... Design is a major factor.
There is plenty or water out there, I was there last week and there is at least 6 inches in the ditch. 
I just want to compare to see which one is indeed a better option. I have my opinion, others have theirs. I say we put our money where our mouth is, I hope I am wrong. When I am, it makes me try harder to improve our product.

Thanks, Chuck


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

When I saw the title it was misleading to open the thread.
I will race you in my scanoe.


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## chuck harsin (May 1, 2011)

Lunkerhtr that scanoe will probably beat everything here! Slick bottom and 50lbs! Come on out, I would really like to do this. Shoot I will even cook dogs for everybody!


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

I would if we had a trailer for it.  Not in the cards for a few months though. Lots of doctor crap to pay for and taxes.


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

you got my attention Chuck!!!! "IF" I can make it next weekend I am game!!!! The wife has my balls this time of year and I have LOTS of irons in the fire!! 

You know my boat we can even use the air boat to drag them out there somewhere if there's not much water.. I know they cut the flow to the Bear River yesterday as now its a trickle. Your best bet is this weekend. I could make it work this weekend! I have a few boys wanting to go for a ride.... But if I beat you then your $50 gets donated to Utah Hemophilia Foundation! deal? 

I think you would have to get as close as you can in HP just to make it as even as you can...


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## ram2h2o (Sep 11, 2007)

Chuck, I agree with you. The design of the boat is a prime factor. Plus the use of pods on the stern to help with the motor weight and the use of something like Gator Slide on the bottom to reduce friction that goes with bare aluminum metal rivet or welds.


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## Gee LeDouche (Sep 21, 2007)

I like this idea. I have a few thoughts myself. Obviously boat design will be a factor, but so will motor. A true mudboat will out perform a standard jon boat in shallows. And a longtail will out dig a shortshaft every day of the week unless its extremely soupy mud, which we don't have much of in Utah. so a LT vs a HD isn't a fair comparison. 

as far as coming to play in the mud, I'll be there!


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

I agree, weight is just one of many factors including hull shape, wetted area, motor HP, how the weight is distributed in the boat, and on and on to infinity. Boat design is a series of compromises that try to end up meeting specific design goals. I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as a plain riveted vs welded argument. I would be interested in adding a composite glass/wood/epoxy hull into the mix.....


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Pumpgunner said:


> I agree, weight is just one of many factors including hull shape, wetted area, motor HP, how the weight is distributed in the boat, and on and on to infinity. Boat design is a series of compromises that try to end up meeting specific design goals. I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as a plain riveted vs welded argument. I would be interested in adding a composite glass/wood/epoxy hull into the mix.....


Bingo. As a kid we used to race boats and do all sorts of crazy stuff in them. Depending on what we were trying to do we would add weight or subtract weight from the boat and move the weight around in the boat to accomplish our goals. Changing the prop also made a difference in what you could do. For example a 2 blade prop would give you good top end speed but not fast planing time but a 3 or 4 blade prop would give much better planing time but not as good of top end speed. I had 3 different props and would change them according to what my needs were and what I was trying to accomplish. If I moved to the two blade prop and had all my weight at the rear of my boat I could pick up 2-4 MPH over a 3 blade if I was the only person in the boat. However if I had my two blade and put 2 hunting buddies and our decoys etc in the boat it was actually slower than a 3 blade.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

When your boat is dragging bottom and you have to pull it by hand because there is not enough water to run the motor then I will take a riveted boat any day over a welded. That is the ONLY reason I still have a riveted boat. I can man handle my riveted Jon and push it up in the phrag and pull it back out by myself, and I know I can drag 220 lbs. much easier than a 450 lb + welded boat. I hunt shallow areas where I spend a fair amount of time pulling my boat by hand because I can't run my longtail motor. If I hunted deep water, bigger lakes and broke a lot of ice I absolutely would have a welded boat. I would love to have both, and a airboat.


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

Got a report on the spur. .. There is plenty water to run. Next week I'm out. Good luck on finding somebody to run with ya. To Me it boils down to cost... riveted is less expensive.


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## duckilla (Nov 20, 2014)

Fowlmouth said:


> When your boat is dragging bottom and you have to pull it by hand because there is not enough water to run the motor then I will take a riveted boat any day over a welded. That is the ONLY reason I still have a riveted boat. I can man handle my riveted Jon and push it up in the phrag and pull it back out by myself, and I know I can drag 220 lbs. much easier than a 450 lb + welded boat. I hunt shallow areas where I spend a fair amount of time pulling my boat by hand because I can't run my longtail motor. If I hunted deep water, bigger lakes and broke a lot of ice I absolutely would have a welded boat. I would love to have both, and a airboat.


Couldn't agree with you more fowl...


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## chuck harsin (May 1, 2011)

Stuck, I can't this weekend but I am down for next Sat. I think even with the water cut the type of boat we are saying is best or good enough to say might be the best will shoot right out even if its only a couple inches deep or less really. Will that work?


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## chuck harsin (May 1, 2011)

Sorry stuck didn't see your reply about next weekend.


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## lablover (Jan 27, 2014)

Really a race? LOL
Have we as Hunters in Utah really resorted to high school competition?
We wonder why folks call us Utards? again lMAO
Is not everyone entitled to there own opinion? I for one prefer a riveted boat super
light weight compared to a welded boat, Is Coast guard approved so if I flip one day while I decided to go fishing it will float and comes with a life time hull warranty and all this at half the cost of a custom welded true duck boat???
No brainer for me ;-) But that's just me I needed a all around boat not a specific boat for one situation only.
Have fun at the races


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## chuck harsin (May 1, 2011)

Geeze lablover don't get all bunched up over there. I am just curious if the riveted boat really is better in shallow water simply because of being riveted and not due to design like I was reading. Don't take it too personal. I surely didn't attack you.


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## chuck harsin (May 1, 2011)

BTW coast guard approved has nothing to do with floatation. In the past you had three categories of floatation. Full, basic and exempt for shallow water use. So an exempt boat (NO FOAM) was still eligible to be CG approved whether it had foam or not. As of this year that is not the case and the exemption no longer exists. So all approved boats must have either basic or full unless it is longer than 20' and they need neither. But either way they are still eligible to be CGA which is nothing more than having the capacity labels on the transom and a couple other labeling requirements. Most importantly if you don't want to come play in the mud with us you don't have too! Me and Gee will eat your hot dog. That really doesn't make us UTARDS! LOL I don't give a **** who wins I was just reading about how much better a rivet was so I am curious. 
Thanks


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## Josh Noble (Jul 29, 2008)

chuck harsin said:


> Motor size is not necessarily relevant as no matter how much HP you have if your boat isn't floating and or you can't get traction you will go no-where. Really the more hp you have the heavier the rig so it should be a handicap. There are many variables as to what makes a shallow water machine EXCEL at its job. That's my point, just because one is welded doesn't mean it won't spank the pants off of a riveted boat in shallow water or maybe it does. Its more than just weight...... Design is a major factor.
> There is plenty or water out there, I was there last week and there is at least 6 inches in the ditch.
> I just want to compare to see which one is indeed a better option. I have my opinion, others have theirs. I say we put our money where our mouth is, I hope I am wrong. When I am, it makes me try harder to improve our product.
> 
> Thanks, Chuck


^^He said excel...LOL



Gee LeDouche said:


> I like this idea. I have a few thoughts myself. Obviously boat design will be a factor, but so will motor. A true mudboat will out perform a standard jon boat in shallows. And a longtail will out dig a shortshaft every day of the week unless its extremely soupy mud, which we don't have much of in Utah. so a LT vs a HD isn't a fair comparison.
> 
> as far as coming to play in the mud, I'll be there!


That's actually not completely true Gee...Ask Chuck. :shock:



LostLouisianian said:


> Bingo. As a kid we used to race boats and do all sorts of crazy stuff in them. Depending on what we were trying to do we would add weight or subtract weight from the boat and move the weight around in the boat to accomplish our goals. Changing the prop also made a difference in what you could do. For example a 2 blade prop would give you good top end speed but not fast planing time but a 3 or 4 blade prop would give much better planing time but not as good of top end speed. I had 3 different props and would change them according to what my needs were and what I was trying to accomplish. If I moved to the two blade prop and had all my weight at the rear of my boat I could pick up 2-4 MPH over a 3 blade if I was the only person in the boat. However if I had my two blade and put 2 hunting buddies and our decoys etc in the boat it was actually slower than a 3 blade.


Finally the right answer! There are a lot of variables in making a duck boat run efficiently but in my opinion the biggest, when talking about generic 12'-20' duck boats is the PROP! HP has something to do with it as does weight and design of the boat but a fresh well matched propeller will make the largest difference IMHO. That being said the fastest most nimble duck boat I've ever driven is a Widow Maker 18'x44".


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## utahbigbull (May 9, 2012)

Well... Did the friendly comparison happen?

Just curious on how this all went down, and what the results were.


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## chuck harsin (May 1, 2011)

Sorry Big bull, like I said I don't frequent much anymore. Nope, no comparison happened. There were a bunch of WM guys that wanted to come but no competition. I am all game if somebody wanted to head out and burn some fuel. Like I said I will buy the Dogs???????


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## lablover (Jan 27, 2014)

Hey Mayhem Mud Motors is putting on a shin dig this Saturday 8:30 AM at the SPUR
Everybody is welcome no matter what kind of boat or motor!
This would be a great opportunity for every one to run there boats for FUN.
Hope to see ya'all there!


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## Stimmy (Sep 10, 2007)

is there water in spur? looks awfully dry out there!


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## Gee LeDouche (Sep 21, 2007)

lablover said:


> Hey Mayhem Mud Motors is putting on a shin dig this Saturday 8:30 AM at the SPUR
> Everybody is welcome no matter what kind of boat or motor!
> This would be a great opportunity for every one to run there boats for FUN.
> Hope to see ya'all there!


In the pouring rain? Id go if it got rescheduled to a time with better weather. (and if there is enough water)

I remember there being some issue years ago with someone wanting to hold a "mudfest" at the spur and needing permits or special permission to do it or something along those lines. Anybody else remember that?

I think this is what I was remembering.. 
http://utahwildlife.net/forum/16-waterfowl/21571-2010-mudfest-details-2.html


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## lablover (Jan 27, 2014)

Do a bunch of buddies need a "Permit" to hang out ? LMAO
NO RAFFLE NO RACES NO MONEY exchanging hands etc...........-O,-
But yeah if it's raining I'm sure as hell not going !


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

lablover said:


> Hey Mayhem Mud Motors is putting on a shin dig this Saturday 8:30 AM at the SPUR
> Everybody is welcome no matter what kind of boat or motor!
> This would be a great opportunity for every one to run there boats for FUN.
> Hope to see ya'all there!


Just hope people stay out of the grasses and stick to the big water as there are lots of nesting birds out there.... use some common sense!!!!


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## chuck harsin (May 1, 2011)

Shoot I should really get on here more often I guess. Did it happen? I would have loved to get out and burn fuel.


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## duckilla (Nov 20, 2014)

chuck harsin said:


> Shoot I should really get on here more often I guess. Did it happen? I would have loved to get out and burn fuel.


No they ended up canceling it cause of the lightning and the rain but I'm sure it will happen again another day.


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## Wingspan (Apr 18, 2016)

Hey Chuck are you still building boats in the Ogden area? If so I'm interested, please send me a pm. Thanks


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