# Utah Biologists what a joke



## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Cant help but to say something about this. I was up shed hunting and found the bear den where they tranquilized the female and collared the cubs. They had a game camera set up at the opening of the bear den. I have found that once you disturb a bear and cubs they tend to get the h e l l out. So with 4 small cubs trying to find a new home traveling through deep snow within 150 yards of the den I found the first dead cub. I continued to track them until the tracks got really fresh. I could tell that the bear had been dragging the cubs over timber to that point trying to find a new spot. I can almost guarantee If I go back there I will atleast find 2 more. What A Joke
http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-black ... iologi-009


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## love2hunt (Oct 28, 2008)

Where abouts did you find this den?


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Daniels Canyon up Center Canyon.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

So to add insult to injury you chase them down. Doesn't that fall under wildlife harassment by you. :? :shock: 

So your the one I have seen up there chasing the elk all over. Just for a few antlers!


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

These shed hunters are the joke!!


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Sounds like a good thing to me. Now maybe a few elk and deer wont be getting eaten by a few more bears. 

By the way how many times in nature have you seen a bear with 4 cubs? Usually when this happens one or two always die. Its just the way it is.


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## love2hunt (Oct 28, 2008)

So in other words you see it on the news and run right up there to see what you can find? I love how you are calling the biologists a joke, They are trying to do their job, I happen to know some of the people on that trip and I will tell you by their account this was in a very steep and remote area (not one you would just stumble onto.) So then you climb the side of a cliff and chase these bears in 3-4 feet of snow in the name of looking for sheds? Who's the joke? I agree with Horsesma Sounds like harrassment to me.


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## HunterGeek (Sep 13, 2007)

pheaz said:


> I have found that once you disturb a bear and cubs they tend to get the h e l l out.


Just how does one obtain experience in bears and cubs leaving their dens after being disturbed? Just had to ask.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

horsesma said:


> So to add insult to injury you chase them down. Doesn't that fall under wildlife harassment by you. :? :shock:
> 
> So your the one I have seen up there chasing the elk all over. Just for a few antlers!


CHASE THEM DOWN? YA THATS IT :evil: . I suppose if im in a so called remote area hunting sheds and stumble across a dead cub I'm guilty for harrassment. As for area being steep cliffy? Bu ll sh it. Ask your people haw many sets of snowshoe tracks had already been up the canyon before they kicked them out of the den. Considering I came threw the back way not knowing that this even had taken place. There was 14 bulls on this face before they snowmobiled in and busted them out. This happens to be a place where they shed and leave and has been for 5 years. So all a sudden the "come on" biologists get turned to the shed guy :lol: . Hunter Geek ask any houndsman that run bears and checks dens in the spring. Just because the division has to snowmobile in on a closed area does not make it a remote area. 45 minute hike from the highway now that pretty **** remote. Cant beleive how much ignorance is on this forum. :mrgreen:


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## HunterGeek (Sep 13, 2007)

pheaz said:


> Cant beleive how much ignorance is on this forum. :mrgreen:


You still didn't answer my question about how you obtained your experience on how bears and their cubs behave after being disturbed in their dens. We ignoramuses don't understand these things, so we're looking to you for insight.

Speaking of ignorance: With one apparent exception here, common knowledge tells most of us that bears start to stir and leave their dens in the spring - even without the prompting from _joker_ biologists. Also it's unusual for bears to give birth to four cubs, so a weak runt that ended up on the short end of the stick when competing with its sibling for the limited supply of the sow's milk might be expected.

I'm not discounting the possibility that the disturbance by the biologists contributed to this. I am suggesting, however, that you tend to come across as a jerk.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

sounds like we have some additional information about why our deer herd is struggleing.... not enough teat for the large fawn crops our does keep having.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Also it's unusual for bears to give birth to four cubs, so a weak runt that ended up on the short end of the stick when competing with its sibling for the limited supply of the sow's milk might be expected.

Great assumption but I have seen plenty of sows with 3 and 4 cubs every year out on the West Fork. (maybe these particular sows have extra teets) Yes the bears start to stir but the cubs stay in the den at that age. All in all must have just be a quincidence that this would happen within a week. Though. Funny how one may post something and just get trashed and then defend themself and come across as a JERK. My experience is from going out with different houndsmen other than that I dont know shizz about bears.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2011)

pheaz said:


> Funny how one may post something and just get trashed and then defend themself and come across as a JERK.


welcome to the UWN!! where the undercover a**holes show their true colors :mrgreen:


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Just a point of order here - 

Pheaz - you came out swinging here, which I'm not sure was your intent. I think it is a good thing to question the timing to tranq and tag bears, but the first swing was "Utah biologists what a joke." That is the first punch in this thing for sure. There may have been a better way to pose the question - which is what I think you intended to do. Just a suggestion to think about how you phrase things. I only make this suggestion publicly instead of through PM because most of us could probably put our own name there, and it would apply. It is a reminder we all need to hear.

Everybody else - Its a worthy question to ask, and I think there have been some good points brought forward based on some people you might know, or information you have. My suggestion is to address those in the best possible way, without making it personal about someone. 

Overall - There are several resource issues in this thread that are very worthy of discussion:
-Timing of tranq'ing and tagging animals at the end of winter when they are the weakest.
-Timing of shed hunting
-"Discovery" of something a guy finds disturbing in the wilds - we've all found stuff and wondered what the deal is, and that is good. When we stop wondering about finding dead animals in weird circumstances, that is when we should be worried.
-Bear studies are very worthy of discussion.

This can certainly go lots of directions. All I ask as a Mod, is to be respectful and attempt to be tactful in how we do it.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

pheaz said:


> I was up shed hunting and found the bear den where they tranquilized the female and collared the cubs.


Did the dead cub have a collar?

I am by no means an expert, so how do you put collars on growing cubs? Won't it eventually choke them?


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Gary I agree and I apologize for the first the punch. It definately was not my intent sorry all. It would have stated better as maybe Come on Utah Biologists. 

Blackdog that was a quote from Fox news I was trying to stay on track to what they had said. I beleive but could be wrong as I'm not as intelligent as others on this forum though. I beleive they put a tracking device under the skin. I did not get close enough to tell if there was indeed a collar though. Thats the first thing that croosed my mind also about the collars.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

When I have helped transplant bighorn sheep, they put collars that are able to expand with the sheep as it gets bigger. If I recall correctly these collars also degrade over time and eventually fall off.


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## Dukes_Daddy (Nov 14, 2008)

Maybe some other Billy Bob also saw the story and found the bear den before you and disturbed the den. Biologists are not going to do something that harms the critters they studying. Wouldn't be good science if your subject dies. Thank about it!!

Where did you say your Biologist Degree was from?


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## HunterGeek (Sep 13, 2007)

Yeah, Gary's right. Sorry Pheaz for jumping all over you. It was just that your first post came across as laying blame without considering that there might be a dozen other explanations. I've got a science background myself, and I tend to respect the biologist's expertise in these matters. I've wondered myself about the need to invade bear dens, but until I get more facts and a better explanation as to what might have happened, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Dukes_Daddy said:


> Maybe some other Billy Bob also saw the story and found the bear den before you and disturbed the den. Biologists are not going to do something that harms the critters they studying. Wouldn't be good science if your subject dies. Thank about it!!
> 
> Where did you say your Biologist Degree was from?


And I would hope they would not but I suppose it does happen though. Well if Billy Bob indeed found it his face will be on camera I dont expect it is though. There was no fresh snow shoe tracks over the snowmobile tracks. My Biologist degree-I'm just stating the facts. I hope when they went up today to retreive the dead cub that it was the only one.


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## love2hunt (Oct 28, 2008)

Well I guess I should put my apology in as well, It was just that I read this thread this morning and it really set me off. As I stated in my earlier post I happen to know some of the people that were on this trip and I will tell you the intent was not to kill anything. They went after a collard mother bear to find data.This has been done for many years and it gives them a chance to study diet, migration and breeding cycles just to name a few. They didn't just stumble onto this den. I will assure you it was done in a very professional way. These biologist take their jobs very serious. I will also tell you that none of these cubs were collard or implanted with anything. It is to bad that one of them has died but this is called nature, and nature is very cruel.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

When you get a chance ask them how many they recovered today when they went up. Also if they where not collaring or injecting the cubs with a tracking system, then why in the h e l l was they even brought out of the den and held by humans.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

HunterGeek said:


> pheaz said:
> 
> 
> > I have found that once you disturb a bear and cubs they tend to get the h e l l out.
> ...


I personally saw this happen a number of times in the Book Cliffs years ago..

This was back when most "den" studies were conducted out there and I was
hunting the late split cougar hunts out there. Hal Black would take students
out and do February/March den studies.........

YES ,,sometimes bears move out when disturbed....
I have experience seeing it first hand.


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## love2hunt (Oct 28, 2008)

You know Pheaz I find it funnty that you are miffed that they took them out of the den for research but you have no problem running them up a tree with a group of dogs for fun.Is that less stressful? I have also spent many years in the hills and have found that most animals get the hell out of an area when humans are around. Maybe you should take a minute and get your facts straight. They are not going to recover anything, but I bet if you hurry you could add that cub to your pile of sheds. Oh and by the way that camera that you saw was not put there by the DWR it was placed there by one of Hal Blacks students. Like I said before you start throwing mud maybe you should educate youself with the facts first.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

love2hunt said:


> You know Pheaz I find it funnty that you are miffed that they took them out of the den for research but you have no problem running them up a tree with a group of dogs for fun.Is that less stressful? I have also spent many years in the hills and have found that most animals get the hell out of an area when humans are around. Maybe you should take a minute and get your facts straight. They are not going to recover anything, but I bet if you hurry you could add that cub to your pile of sheds. Oh and by the way that camera that you saw was not put there by the DWR it was placed there by one of Hal Blacks students. Like I said before you start throwing mud maybe you should educate youself with the facts first.


Funny thing here Love I am not and will never be a houndsman. The only bear I seen that got treed by dogs got shot so not really just for fun. So since its not the divisional biologist then does it not still have to be approved by the Utah Biologists. I never said it was the Divisions camera I said THEY had set up a camera. So I ask you again since you know so much on this issue and want to throw mud. What did they recover yesterday when they went in?


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## love2hunt (Oct 28, 2008)

Sorry, my mistake I just asummed that when you said earlier that you had been out with different houndsmen it meant more than once. No it does not have to be approved by DWR to put out a trail cam, There are thousands of cameras around this great state (so be carefull were you take a leak)Haha They did not go up yesterday they did this trip on April 1 and to my knowlege have not been back to the area since. But when they went in they were able to recover lots of data from the mother that will help them. I myself am not a biologist, but like I said earlier I know these biologist personaly and I will tell you they take their job very serious and are concerned about the wildlife in the state of Utah and are trying to get the most information they can to help them make informed decisions when it come to managment plans. I am sorry that you found one of these dead cubs I am sure it was very disturbing for you and I don't want to discredit your feelings, but I will assure you every measure was taken to keep this professional it was not just a witch hunt to yank bears out of their den just so humans could hold them.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Well like I said when you talk to them next ask if they recovered more for me my curiosity is killing me about the other 3 cubs. I do know foreshore that they did go back in yesterday afternoon. I was meaning doesn't the whole bear deal have to be aproved by the division? About the camera trust me I found out the hard way my budy has a picture of my wee wee.


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## Hound Inc. (Mar 31, 2008)

Lets rewind 2-3 years. A houndsmen hunting a cougar, following his dogs stumbled upon a den, that had a sow and cubs (3) I believe. DWR, tranq'd the sow, collected data and or whatever they do, and left them be. 2 weeks later, the cubs were found froze to death at the mouth of the den, and the mother hit the highway. I believe there was a link posted on here or MM.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

So is this a possible quincidence here or is this whats to expect Hound Inc?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

kill_'em_all said:


> pheaz said:
> 
> 
> > Funny how one may post something and just get trashed and then defend themself and come across as a JERK.
> ...


It's not WHAT is said...it's HOW it's said.

I personally feel that anyones views and opinions should be respected, discussed, and considered. I very much enjoy discussing topics in a healthy, open minded, FAIR way especially with people who don't agree.

Take for example....if you had titled this thread "Should biologists go into bear dens?" then told of your experience and asked why they do it the way they do.....you would've had a very healthy discussion. Instead you say "Utah biologists what a joke". To a lot of people that says you place yourself above them and that your knowledge is somehow supreme to all others. You are the smartest person in the world and many people are defensive right off the bat which in turn makes you defensive and have to defend yourself. These types of discussions phrased the way they are just aren't all that healthy in my opinion because there is no exchange of real information and learning. It's a pissing match.

Just sayin....that's how you come across whether that's your intention or not.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

pheaz, you'll be happy to learn the sow is still in the same den. After being tipped off about this thread, the DWR went back up with their telemetry equipment and were able to determine that she was where they last left her. They'll wait for her to emerge from the den before they attempt to count the cubs. In the meantime, best to stay out of the area and give her space.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Kevin thanks for the update. I figured she had returned though. I had heard that some bear hunters run her and two cubs out of 3 Forks back into Center Canyon Thursday afternoon.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

pheaz said:


> Kevin thanks for the update. I figured she had returned though. I had heard that some bear hunters run her and two cubs out of 3 Forks back into Center Canyon Thursday afternoon.


I would remind those hunters that it is also unlawful to pursue a sow with cubs.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Kevin D said:


> pheaz said:
> 
> 
> > Kevin thanks for the update. I figured she had returned though. I had heard that some bear hunters run her and two cubs out of 3 Forks back into Center Canyon Thursday afternoon.
> ...


I don't know them thats just the word around town. I beleive they where from Utah County.


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