# Too much 209.....?



## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

I never have been a fan of the 209 primer systems out there because of the accuracy issues that resulted from shooting them. I have always shot # 11 CCI magnum caps or on Knights have resorted to the musket caps because of the long ignition chambers on these in lines. Here is a little incite from Doc White as he explains his short breachplugs and the 209 ignition systems:

"Another problem turned out to be the seemingly superb breechplug design: short, with powder less than a ½ inch away from the primer. It turns out that the blast from the average trap and skeet 209 is way too potent for the average load. It causes all kinds of problems with accuracy because it pushes the bullet down the bore before conflagration of the powder charge, enough so that accuracy is impacted. Randy Wakeman long ago pointed out that the Remington 209-4, made specifically for the 410 shotshell with only 4/10th of the power of a trap and skeet primer, works much better. Using the Rem 209-4 primer cut groups in my personal T-Bolt in half. Remington dropped the 209-4 and substituted the 'Kleanbore" 209 primer several years ago, so look for the 'Kleanbore' label when buying 209 porimers for any muzzleloader. Also, Winchester has come out with a special lower power muzzleloading 209 which I have found to be excellent. I expect that other brands will eventually follow suit."

"If all this seems confusing and a great nuisance, please remember that 209 primers are made for shotguns, which have no need for accuracy, only for prompt and sure ignition. So shotshell primers are made with an oversupply of blast. Rifle and pistol primers are not. There is an accuracy element with them, so blast is limited to the great average that seems to works well in the greatest number of rifles and pistols. Also, many competitive shooters believe that relatively weak but sure ignition produces better accuracy, which is why 308 target cartridges are produced with small rifle primer pockets.
So here are the rules: If throwing saboted bullets, use either loose powder or pellets. If using slip- fit bullets, use only loose powder. If using loose powder, always use the larger granulations. Always use the lowest power 209 primer that you can buy. Pinch the 209 rim tightly between bolt face and breech plug."

The rest of his article can be read at: http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/serv01.htm

My only disagreement with Doc White is shooting larger granules of powder. I have always been able to get my best groups shooting FFF powders and substitutes. If the larger granules are not working for you try P or FFF size on for style.

Good shooting .....Bigbr


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

So I have been using Remington 209 "Muzzeloading" primers and I just bought some Winchester triple seven primers that are supposedly specially designed for use with triple seven pellets and billed as "reducing fouling". Are these primers "lighter" than regular 209 primers?


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

This past fall I shot the heck out of my muzzy to make sure that I had every thing right before heading to the Henries. I had some old tripple 7's but decided to buy the new tripple seven magnums that the salesman told me was the best thing out there. I had slow ignitions on every shot that I shot with them. The old box of primers worked just fine.

I like the 209's. Better for the water and rain issues.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I know my guns groups better with the Winchester 777 209 primers compared to regular 209.


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

I have also seen adapters so that you can use pistol primers.


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

Real black powder goes boom - every time. EVERY TIME!!! Knock the traditional guns all you want, but when the chips are down, you don't want to wonder if your charge will ignite. For you inliners: drop about 5 grains of FFFg black in first before you put in your substitute. Your ignition will certainly improve. Yes, you will be fouling with corrosive residue, but isn't that why we clean our guns when we're through? :wink:


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## muzzlehutn (Oct 26, 2007)

+1 on dropn some real powder in before your pellts. works great even better with a hole charge of the stuff


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

woollybugger said:


> Real black powder goes boom - every time. EVERY TIME!!! Knock the traditional guns all you want, but when the chips are down, you don't want to wonder if your charge will ignite. For you inliners: drop about 5 grains of FFFg black in first before you put in your substitute. Your ignition will certainly improve. Yes, you will be fouling with corrosive residue, but isn't that why we clean our guns when we're through? :wink:


So, Mr Woolley,

Who taught you that fine trick?


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

> So, Mr Woolley,
> 
> Who taught you that fine trick?


Hmmmm...

I use all real black powder, so my stuff always goes boom anyway! 8)


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

woollybugger said:


> > So, Mr Woolley,
> >
> > Who taught you that fine trick?
> 
> ...


I have taught you well grasshopper!

Now what about that new 28 gage?

Bigbr


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

I need to bring that to 'show and tell' sometime, don't I?. (a little off subject, talking about 28 gauges, unless you mean .54 cal?) I shot it last night; skeet at Provo GC. It's a keeper. Fun gun to shoot, almost no recoil! I could shoot that thing all day (or night in this case)  I just need to train that little shot charge to collide more often with the clay. :roll: :lol:


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