# It's a sad day...



## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

This is what I put in for.....

1) 1532 - Rifle Buck Deer (ANY LEGAL WEAPON) - Cache (Oct 17 - 25, 2015)
2) 1562 - Muzzleloader Buck Deer (MUZZLELOADER) - Cache (Sept 23 - Oct 1, 2015)
3) 1544 - Rifle Buck Deer (ANY LEGAL WEAPON) - Ogden (Oct 17 - 25, 2015)

This is the result that I got.... 

UNSUCCESSFUL: General Season Buck Deer

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UNSUCCESSFUL: Limited Entry Buck Pronghorn

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UNSUCCESSFUL: Bull Moose

I really didn't think that I was asking for too much by applying for a general season unit that is often under drawn. Looks like I will be settling for the left overs come June 16th. The saddest part about this whole ordeal is that I have been a strong proponent to opportunity and always been on the side of getting out and doing some hunting rather than managing Utah like hunting is some type of exclusive sport for those who have the means. Fortunately this will be my last year of residency in this State. I feel that I did my part showing up to RAC meetings and and opposing all of the recent changes that have left me out on the side lines. I guess my points will be going to use now as I apply as a non-resident in this SFW controlled state. I am sure there is still a good battle to fight in Idaho, but at least I can fight it with a tag in my pocket.


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## nocturnalenemy (Jun 26, 2011)

Totally sucks. I feel for everyone who didn't draw. My buddy who has never hunted, and who I was going to mentor this year, also struck out. Hard to get into the sport if you can't hunt! I've had a couple years like that. 

Not sure if it interests you, but there were a couple left over Ogden muzzy tags you could try to go after when they go on sale.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

that's rough! I had amazing luck this year but I feel for those who didn't get a tag. My dad struck out on deer too. Pretty sad. It's only going to be tougher in the years to come.


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## Bob L. (Jan 11, 2015)

Sorry you didn't draw, that sucks. Hopefully you can join me in November.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

I feel your pain. I went 0 for 3 on my apps this year and didnt draw my general deer tag for 456. First time without a general rifle tag in 23 years. Im sucking it up and getting into the WY antelope draw and will try to pick up a left over muzzy tag for 456 as well as go for antlerless stuff as always but man...it didn't seem like a tag increase for deer this year for a bunch of us. Bummer.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

There's still opportunity for general bull and antlerless. If you want to go on an OTC black bear/ blacktail combo with a side of wild pigs out in Cali hit me up. Might be new to some folks but I've been batting zeros for a long time in about a half dozen western states. COME ON NEVADA( ya right).--------SS


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Sorry Namb... yes it is sad.



> If you want to go on an OTC black bear/ blacktail combo with a side of wild pigs out in Cali hit me up. SS


I would think hard about shooters kind offer, it is a fun time for sure!8)


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)




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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

This is the 2nd year in a row I didn't even pull a general archery deer tag....or any other tag for that matter.


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## Huntin8 (Jul 15, 2013)

My hope is I will draw a Nevada antelope with 0 points... Or Utah cow elk with 1 point... or Utah doe pronghorn with 2 points...


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## El Casador (Aug 27, 2009)

That sucks,not even a general season buck tag.. that's weak.:shock: I feel for you.. this was my sons last year for youth bull rifle hunt and no dice.. he was bummed out, 5 yrs of donating a $10 handling fee I guess..


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

if it's this hard for folks that play by the rules to draw a tag then i can see why this state has such a problem with poaching. people can rationalize anything, especially if they feel they've been treated unfairly or that their rights have been violated.

good luck in the leftovers or antlerless to those that didn't draw out.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Leaves you wondering where that extra 2000 deer tags went.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Bucksnort1 said:


> Leaves you wondering where that extra 2000 deer tags went.


I think it's because of the higher buck/doe ratio the DWR posted in their news release. We were under a 10/100 ratio before option 2 and now we are over 20/100 statewide. People are excited about this and more people are probably applying.
Also, more people are using the point system loophole now and getting tags over those who have zero points.
I'm guessing Nambaster had zero points this year.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Going in with one point doesn't guarantee a general archery tag.....


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> I think it's because of the higher buck/doe ratio the DWR posted in their news release. We were under a 10/100 ratio before option 2 and now we are over 20/100 statewide. People are excited about this and more people are probably applying.
> Also, more people are using the point system loophole now and getting tags over those who have zero points.
> I'm guessing Nambaster had zero points this year.


Yep 0 points, but I don't think that numbers are so low that I should sit the year out. Makes me feel like a ciminal...


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Nambaster said:


> Yep 0 points, but I don't think that numbers are so low that I should sit the year out. Makes me feel like a ciminal...


 Like I said before, it's not that numbers are lower but more people are getting excited about hunting deer again. Now that more bucks are being seen in the field.
I would be pretty sad if I didn't get to hunt deer in my first choice area too but you do still have some options to hunt somewhere.
Makes you fell like a criminal? Please!!!*\\-\\*


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## Uber (May 18, 2014)

This has been the case for the last 10+ years if you hunt anywhere in the old "southern" unit. 

If you dont look at the odds and figure out which areas to put in for that guarantee a chance for a buck tag. That is in you, not the system.

I cant hunt my favorite unit every year. Its now takes 3+ years for a general season deer tag. So instead of complaining, I figured out what I had to do to make sure I can put meat in my freezer every year.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

Uber said:


> This has been the case for the last 10+ years if you hunt anywhere in the old "southern" unit.
> 
> If you dont look at the odds and figure out which areas to put in for that guarantee a chance for a buck tag. That is in you, not the system.
> 
> I cant hunt my favorite unit every year. Its now takes 3+ years for a general season deer tag. So instead of complaining, I figured out what I had to do to make sure I can put meat in my freezer every year.


I kind of agree with this. Anybody that has been lucky enough to draw a general season rifle tag every single year for the last 20+ years is one lucky duck. I did that for a long time and then had to sit out completely one year. It sucked! So now I pay more attention to what is going on in the area I want to hunt, and what my points will get me. This year is a prime example. I really wanted a rifle tag and put that as my first choice of course. Didn't think I would have a very good chance so I put archery as my second choice.

I was right, I didn't get the rifle tag, but did get an archery tag. It may end up being more of a scouting year than anything, but at least I get to carry my bow just in case the stars align.

How many times have many of us said that we would be willing to sit out a year here or there if it meant more and/or better bucks? Most of us have probably said that at one time or another but we don't like it when it's our turn to sit.

Understandable, but I personally would still much rather have it this way than have unlimited tags.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Kind of disingenuous to blame the applicant, especially if they are applying for tags which historically have been 100% draw. Couple that with the fact that many can use the point system to stay ahead of other applicants and always draw a tag. How many tags go to people who do not have to wait? Up to 12,000 dedicated, 4,500 lifetimers, up to 16,000 tags for youth only, and 8,000+- applicants getting tags and not using their points. That is almost 50% of the permits possibly going to people outside of the "mainstream" draw. Sure those applicants were -willing to draw a ded. tag, were able to buy a license 20 years ago, or know how to work the system. The fact remains, the mainstream draw for 18+ year olds who don't understand how the system works are not in the running for a lot of permits.

It is all changing-- that is what happens when the herd is growing and permits are not. A person has to play the application game to be assured a permit. Sad that this is what it has come to. Even more so when the management objectives mandate an increase in permits, yet the decision makers oppose the increases because of "pet-unit" feelings. (And I'd say the same if the herds were declining and the decision makers went against permit cuts.)

Just showing a different perspective to consider. I think we'd all feel bummed to get our first UN after decades of general season tags. Maybe some of the new-hunters might see it differently....


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm not sure how many hunters are re-entering the system vs guys are finally figuring the system out and point creep is already starting. The first couple of years there were a lot more left over tags...I think because nobody was putting down a 2nd or 3rd choice. You miss out on a tag once or twice and suddenly you start paying more attention to how the draw works. 

I really hope the DWR fixes the loopholes in the system. It's only going to get worse.


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## nelsonccc (Jul 8, 2014)

I know I'll be paying a lot more attention next year. I can't believe I didn't pull a tag. Not sure what I did wrong or what I can change for next year. You'd think I would have drawn one of my five choices. Last year was my first time applying for Utah deer archery and I did not pull a tag for my first three choices. So this year with a point I thought I'd get it.

non resident with 1 point
1st choice - 1516 Panguitch 1:25 with point, not surprised I didn't get my first choice.
2nd choice - 1517 Pine Valley 1:1 shot with a point. Thought for sure I'd draw this!
3rd choice - 1529 Zion 1:1 chance
4th choice - 1511 Dutton 1:1.3 shot
5th choice - 1510 Monroe 1:1 shot

Confused, since Panguitch was my first choice last year I should have a preference point there but I'm not sure how that works with the bonus point from not drawing last year.

Only thing I can think of is that once you don't get your first choice then the BP doesn't matter anymore and I dropped into the 0 point category and then I had like a 1:30 or so chance for the areas above.

Am I totally misunderstanding this? Can I still get an OTC archery tag in another unit? Looks like I'll be going after the anterless pretty heavy.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

My "preferred unit" has historically had plenty of leftover tags. Because of that fact, I have never listed a 2nd or 3rd choice on my applications and I've never felt the need to "play the game" and take advantage of the aforementinoed loophole.
I have watched over the course of three years as the number of leftover tags has decreased each year, with only a very small handful of tags remaning this year. It's come to the point where I have to prepare myself that being a 100& guaranteed draw next year probably isn't in the cards.

I'm hopeful that things will get fixed within the drawing... but until then, it looks like it's time for me to play the game.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I love the dedicated applicant program. Sure beats doing service hrs.


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## Truelife (Feb 6, 2009)

I agree Packout, it is unfortunate that the whole system has come to this. I see that the vast majority of remaining permits were "youth" permits. 

I really can't understand why we are saving tags for someone we wish was interested and keeping them from those we already know ARE interested and waiting to pay for a tag........


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

ridge is spot on. So many forum dwellers claim that it is all about opportunity above quality. Yet when it comes time to actually put your money where your mouth is its not the case at all. More bucks...more applicants, bigger bulls...more applicants. Packout says the herd is growing why not the permits. Well Packout they did issue more tags this year?? How about we get the herd back up over 800,000 instead of 350,000. We are still issuing more tags per actual deer than have in the past. 

I'll be hunting general season again this year with my son and wife. Hunting is important enough to us to research and understand the system. We haven't ever missed a year.(NO DEDICATED OR LIFETIME TAGS) That being said we always set up a back up plan to ensure we get to go out and hunt each fall. If it matters enough people find a way! 

Nab,
Enjoy Idaho, I know I do every year already.....Cause it matters enough to me!!! THE SAD DAY TOO ME IS THE DAY THAT WE CARE MORE ABOUT GENERAL SEASON TAGS THAN THE FACT THAT OUR DEER HERDS USE TO BE 800,000+ AND NOW WE ARE AT 350,000.


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

I cant believe this post is still going.... You win some, you lose some. get over it!


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

give me your tag and I will delete the thread.... :grin:


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

I would give you mine, but its archery. And apparently you don't do archery. Or you would have applied for it And probably gotten my tag


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

nelsonccc said:


> I know I'll be paying a lot more attention next year. I can't believe I didn't pull a tag. Not sure what I did wrong or what I can change for next year. You'd think I would have drawn one of my five choices. Last year was my first time applying for Utah deer archery and I did not pull a tag for my first three choices. So this year with a point I thought I'd get it.
> 
> non resident with 1 point
> 1st choice - 1516 Panguitch 1:25 with point, not surprised I didn't get my first choice.
> ...


First the "odds" report provided by the DWR regarding the general deer draw is absolutley worthless. Between lifetime licenses, youth licenses, dedicated huners and with no distinction between 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice etc. they tell you nothing valuable unless the unit is undersubscribed.

Second, your looking at the wrong pool of applicants. You are looking at last years numbers for a applicants with 1 point. Take a moment to look at the applicants in your point pool (those with 0 points last year). You will see why you didn't draw. In your point pool there were far more applicants than tags available. It's impossible to know how many of those guys applied for the same tags, but given the fact you didn't draw it must have been a high percentage.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

Muley73 said:


> ridge is spot on. So many forum dwellers claim that it is all about opportunity above quality. Yet when it comes time to actually put your money where your mouth is its not the case at all. More bucks...more applicants, bigger bulls...more applicants. Packout says the herd is growing why not the permits. Well Packout they did issue more tags this year?? How about we get the herd back up over 800,000 instead of 350,000. We are still issuing more tags per actual deer than have in the past.


23% (80,000tags/350,000 deer) vs 25% - 31% (200,000 tags - 250,000 tags/800,000 deer).

It appears to me that we issued a higher ratio of tags:deer in the past than we do now. I would love to see 800,000 deer again, but realistically the habitat couldn't sustain that number 40 years ago and can't sustain it today. I'm hopeful that the current trend continues, but I worry about what a hard winter would do and the herds ability to recover afterwords.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> I'll be hunting general season again this year with my son and wife. Hunting is important enough to us to research and understand the system. We haven't ever missed a year.(NO DEDICATED OR LIFETIME TAGS) That being said we always set up a back up plan to ensure we get to go out and hunt each fall. If it matters enough people find a way!


I can appreciate what you are saying, but is it right that your ability to hunt as you like every year is based on knowledge and manipulation of an arcane loophole in how the draw is conducted, that probably 80%+ of the applicants have no idea about?

I applaud you and others that recognized the loophole and use it to your advantage, but feel that it is unfair to the vast majority of "regular" applicants seeking general tags. Folks shouldn't be required to hang out on internet hunting sites and/or meticulously study draw tables to have a chance to get a general deer tag every year or two, based on general demand.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

^^^^^ 
Or join a program that requires you to donate labor and charges extra fees for the exclusive ability to hunt multiple seasons. Why is the DH program capped? Why not open that opportunity to all who want to partake? How about lifetime licenses? Bring them back?


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Or we could just quit screwing with the system and let families and friends hunt
together without cheating the system.

Just a thought.

By the By 73 I'm 1 for 4 in hunting where I want to hunt, with the group
I want to hunt with since this cluster began.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Dahlmer said:


> It appears to me that we issued a higher ratio of tags:deer in the past than we do now. I would love to see 800,000 deer again, but realistically the habitat couldn't sustain that number 40 years ago and can't sustain it today. I'm hopeful that the current trend continues, but I worry about what a hard winter would do and the herds ability to recover afterwords.


And those days of higher tag to buck ratios were a nightmare. Are you advocating we go back to turn on the century style management?

Just how many acres do you need to raise a deer Dahlmer? Right now each one has about 130 acres to spread out on. 55 million acres in Utah and you can find a deer making a living on just about everyone of them except salt flat and asphalt. I call total bs on the capacity habitat argument. It takes an awful lot of faith and denial for one to swallow that when you understand the big picture.

40 yrs ago we probably had 1,600,000 deer in Utah. And the habitat sustained that many deer for 40 years prior to the ban on 1080 and then the introduction of LE cougar hunting. You know a cougar kills 50 deer a year. You know that the latest studies sighted here confirm cougar kill more deer then any other single factor. You know none of the deer mortality was attributed to malnutrition in the transplant study. You know the number of livestock in Utah's has not been reduced by 4 fold over the last 40 yrs. Are they unaware of all the drought winter kill and habitat loss we've suffers as of late? Someone should give them a call.

Families back east get to hunt deer at will because they don't have one cougar for every 150 deer like we have in Utah and other wester states. So hunters back east are the primary means to control population numbers.

You can blame option 2 and SFW weather ATV's and poachers all you want. But the facts are that in the wildlife management climate we live in today. Hunted are more satisfied today then they have been in a long time. Meaning they would rather camp and see a buck then hunt and not see one.


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

Catherder said:


> I can appreciate what you are saying, but is it right that your ability to hunt as you like every year is based on knowledge and manipulation of an arcane loophole in how the draw is conducted, that probably 80%+ of the applicants have no idea about?
> 
> I applaud you and others that recognized the loophole and use it to your advantage, but feel that it is unfair to the vast majority of "regular" applicants seeking general tags. Folks shouldn't be required to hang out on internet hunting sites and/or meticulously study draw tables to have a chance to get a general deer tag every year or two, based on general demand.


How is it unfair if its part of the rules that the DWR created?


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Skally said:


> How is it unfair if its part of the rules that the DWR created?


Are you saying that the DWR (and the Wildlife board) is infallible? If hanging out on an outdoors message board teaches anything, it is that there are plenty of critics of the DWR and many feel the DWR is far from perfect in certain things. The preference point loophole is an instance where* I *feel they are doing it wrong, and yes, IMO, it is unfair.

As for my personal situation, I can play the loophole game going forward as effectively as Muley73, you, or anyone else. I'll be fine. It still doesn't make me feel that the system is fair.


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

Catherder said:


> Are you saying that the DWR (and the Wildlife board) is infallible? If hanging out on an outdoors message board teaches anything, it is that there are plenty of critics of the DWR and many feel the DWR is far from perfect in certain things. The preference point loophole is an instance where* I *feel they are doing it wrong, and yes, IMO, it is unfair.
> 
> As for my personal situation, I can play the loophole game going forward as effectively as Muley73, you, or anyone else. I'll be fine. It still doesn't make me feel that the system is fair.


NO im saying we ALL have the same rules to play by. You cant fault a person for doing the best they can within the rules. If you don't research and find out the best way to get you and yours a tag. ITS ON YOU!

Unfair is the wrong the word. because its the same for EVERYONE


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Skally said:


> You cant fault a person for doing the best they can within the rules.


And I will humbly remind you that I wrote in a recent previous post that I don't either.

However, that doesn't change my opinion that the current loophole is not generally known to the average hunter, is hard to understand for the average schmo that doesn't learn and study it out, allows a certain subset of hunters to hunt year after year, to the exclusion of most others, and results in a distribution of tags that most observers would view as unintended. So yeah, I would say the word unfair is the correct word IMO. You can smugly call it whatever you want.


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## Skally (Apr 20, 2012)

Catherder said:


> And I will humbly remind you that I wrote in a recent previous post that I don't either.
> 
> However, that doesn't change my opinion that the current loophole is not generally known to the average hunter, is hard to understand for the average schmo that doesn't learn and study it out, allows a certain subset of hunters to hunt year after year, to the exclusion of most others, and results in a distribution of tags that most observers would view as unintended. So yeah, I would say the word unfair is the correct word IMO. You can smugly call it whatever you want.


So its unfair because you are not willing to do the research and put forth some effort to learn the system..... LOL


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## Uber (May 18, 2014)

The "average hunter" should read the Big Game Application book.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Wiley,
Sounds like your being bullheaded? You think I have a tag in my pocket for the area I want to hunt every year? Nope but like I said I like to go enough that I find a way. 

Fair??? Fair??? So you're saying to be fair I should not care as much to be even with the 80% that don't care enough to pay attention? That we should match rules to cater to those that are uneducated? Huh, sounds exactly the direction this country has started to spiral. Maybe I'll be ask to give my tag to someone that didn't care enough to pay attention. Seems kinda like the welfare system. Even more so when the original whiner asked for someone to give their tag to him. Why did Nambster not draw a tag this year? Because he drew last year and didn't take the time to understand the current system. Change the system to make it more "fair" for those that didn't care enough to educate themselves to begin with. Perfect! Let's give them all a participation trophy too!


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

The original intent of this post was not to turn this into an option 2 rant... but here it goes. As supporters and practical originators of option 2, SFW is to blame for long lost traditional hunting opportunities. With the separation and division of unit by unit HUNTER MANAGEMENT with not biological benefits, this segmented attempt at trying to regulate hunter presence during the general season is an absolute desecration to the sport. 

Over the past few years under the option 2 ruling hunters have been excluded from carrying on with their long attainable traditions and reverted to hunting in seasons and areas that they are not normally accustomed to participating. Simply drawing a "Northern" permit would have nearly been an guarantee in past years. Instead tracts of land are now allotted specified numbers of tags creating high availability to private sectors of land and competitive drawing endeavors for those who want to hunt public land increasing the gap between the privileged and those who just want to be out hunting.... 

The tags that I put in for this year were attainable and had high success rates in the past. Drawing 1 of the 3 of them should have been a chip shot. With the absence of Option 2 it would have been a guarantee. The real dilemma here is that one specific organization is asking that every hunter in Utah learns to adapt and mold to their specific regulations in order to increase the availability of trophy animals. This to me is corruption that does not belong in the State of Utah and makes me wish that we would rethink the Wildlife board.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

Great logic,
Unless you find the holes to jump through, you get penalized. 
Sounds exactly like Wall Street and the crooked politicians they
Buy. The country analogy would be correct. 

Face it, the system doesn't work and hasn't for four years. 
Things need to change. We can BS ourselves for another
Four years and claim its for the deer or we can call this exactly
What it is and what it has been for almost two decades. 
A north south war. Simple as that. 

My opinion and efforts will be to get "The Average Hunter"
That lives along the Wasatch Front the representation they
Deserve. 80% of all applicants and licenses sold are from
The Front. Yet we have to play by the rules developed by
The Bundy Clan that don't want us **** city boys a killin
All of "our" deer or a huntin in "Our Backyards"

Stop with the it's for the deer nonsense and the high Buck
To doe BS and making hunters do shady crap to draw a tag.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Wiley,
Shady??? Get real! Being educated on how the system works is not shady. It's another example of caring enough to do what I need to do to legally hunt. Could have burned my points on a much better unit this year. But I didnt, I used them to ensure that my son and wife also drew tags again this year. Not a thing shady about it. Passed up a tag on a unit that still had a couple 190s standing at the end of the hunt. So nope it's not all about big antlers for me either. 

Nab,
The fact that you are hung up on Opt 2 being the work of SFW again shows your shallow knowledge of a subject. Wiley tell me do you think Opt 2 was the brain child of the SFW??? Lol!!!! 

Cry about lost opportunity or............study up and go hunt!


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Catherder said:


> And I will humbly remind you that I wrote in a recent previous post that I don't either.
> 
> However, that doesn't change my opinion that the current loophole is not generally known to the average hunter, is hard to understand for the average schmo that doesn't learn and study it out, allows a certain subset of hunters to hunt year after year, to the exclusion of most others, and results in a distribution of tags that most observers would view as unintended. So yeah, I would say the word unfair is the correct word IMO. You can smugly call it whatever you want.


I agree with you guys that Utah has major issues in the way we allocate tags and season dates etc. 
but, to say someone is cheating by not using their preference points when they don't draw their first choice is silly. To say its not common knowledge is also silly IMO. Several western states use this style of draw successfully. It allows hunters to apply for tougher units, not draw, and still get to hunt a much easier unit.
I realize our rules are not exactly the same as those states but to accuse someone of being a cheat or having an unfair advantage is a bit over the top. All it takes is a little bit of effort to read and understand. If guys don't care enough to read the rules I don't have a lot of sympathy. 
Im sorry to those who did not draw. My 12 year old daughter and 17 year old son did not draw either. Its tough, but go help your friends hunt, learn a new area. Find an area you can draw and make a change. Its really not that much different from LE elk tag strategy. My friend just drew his first tag with 22 points. Im headed towards my 3rd legitimate LE elk tag draw starting next year. I choose archery. I want to hunt. 
Unfortunately the days of the big family camps are gone. For that I am saddened. But, I will continue to hunt when I draw and help out others when I dont.
All I am saying is work towards changing rules you don't like, but in the mean time, adapt to the system and cards we have been dealt. 
Hope that makes sense, its late and I'm tired...


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

silentstalker said:


> to say someone is cheating by not using their preference points when they don't draw their first choice is silly. To say its not common knowledge is also silly IMO. Several western states use this style of draw successfully. It allows hunters to apply for tougher units, not draw, and still get to hunt a much easier unit.
> I realize our rules are not exactly the same as those states but to accuse someone of being a cheat or having an unfair advantage is a bit over the top. All it takes is a little bit of effort to read and understand. If guys don't care enough to read the rules I don't have a lot of sympathy.


SS- Your above statement leads me to believe you don't understand what we are talking about. I'm not saying that guys are cheating-- I'd call it working the system or using a loophole.

Utah looks at points to allocate choices 2-5. Utah allows an applicant with more points to draw a 2nd-5th choice before someone with less can draw the same tag as their 1st choice. The higher point holder also receives an additional point-- thus allowing him to always stay at the head of the line. Always drawing, while people with less/no points can not.

So your son and daughter might be sitting out from their first choice while someone with more points is hunting the same unit every year as their 5th choice.

No State allocates 2nd choice tags by the number of points an applicant has AND allows the applicant to retain the points and gain another-- Essentially keeping the applicant at the head of the line. WY made the mistake the first year they went to points, but they fixed it quickly.

Contrary to some previous posts, you won't find this topic in the guidebook and you can't read about it in the "Rules". They learned about it on the web or from a friend. The UDWR didn't even realize what was happening so how could they have written it into the guidebooks for the masses to read?


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## nocturnalenemy (Jun 26, 2011)

silentstalker said:


> Im sorry to those who did not draw. My 12 year old daughter and 17 year old son did not draw either. Its tough, but go help your friends hunt, learn a new area.


Not sure if your kids hunt archery or not, but there are leftover tags for youth on every unit in the state.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

73, Opt 2 was the brainchild of DC. 
And ramroddef through by a corrupt WB. 

The RMEF, MDF, UBA and BOU were all against
It along with the Northern and Central RAC's,
You know the 80% I speak of so glowingly. 
Yet here we are.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Packout said:


> SS- Your above statement leads me to believe you don't understand what we are talking about. I'm not saying that guys are cheating-- I'd call it working the system or using a loophole.
> 
> Utah looks at points to allocate choices 2-5. Utah allows an applicant with more points to draw a 2nd-5th choice before someone with less can draw the same tag as their 1st choice. The higher point holder also receives an additional point-- thus allowing him to always stay at the head of the line. Always drawing, while people with less/no points can not.
> 
> ...


Packout, I do understand how it works. It was late and my message was not well said. My whole point to it is lets try to change things we don't agree with but a couple of the posts sure sounded like they were blaming sportsmen for using the system to its fullest. Don't blame sportsmen for working within the parameters of the draw. 
This topic was brought up for review last year and the state did nothing about it, right? Why, and what is going to change their minds?
My last point was deal with it for now by looking at hunts you can draw. There are plenty of units you can draw if you really want to hunt deer. 
I am not defending the loophole. 
Every state has weird twists to their systems. Colorado does not average points, Wyoming started points a year before I started buying them. Should they change the system to accommodate me or should I work their system to the best of my situation? I want to hunt, so I find areas I can hunt and draw out. I would not call that unfair.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

There is so much opportunity to hunt in this state, it's amazing. Unlimited archery elk, spike and any bull tags on sale soon, buy one the first day--they will be available. Many if not most general archery deer tags can be had as a second choice, even crap units you can hunt the incredible extended areas come mid September to November. You can draw many cow elk rifle tags with just one point, put in for doe antelope and get a tag every 4 years, doe deer same thing. If you take a little time, and plan stuff out you have a tag and opportunity every single year. 

Here is the kicker--everybody complaining on this forum spends time on this forum--that is time you could have spent planning and figuring out the system. If you have time to complain on an internet forum you should have time to learn the dang system. I like option 2, I like more bucks, I will hunt each and every year because I love hunting. The world is an amazing place and I have one life to live--complaining about it doesn't make it better, adapt and overcome people. 8)

I am not even going to mention the many many available hunts out of state that are CHEAP, amazing, and sooo much fun! Enjoy life guys & gals, its the only one ya got!


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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

Uber said:


> The "average hunter" should read the Big Game Application book.


So you are telling me the said "loophole" on how the draw is conducted, and how the point holders can draw a second or third choice before I can draw my first choice is spelled out in the application guide book that I read every year? And I missed it all these years?


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

*See Red Below*



Airborne said:


> There is so much opportunity to hunt in this state, it's amazing. Unlimited archery elk, spike and any bull tags on sale soon, buy one the first day--they will be available.
> 
> *After, hunting elk in Idaho, it is just not the same. They give out any bull tags for units without a high population of elk. They give out spike and cow tags in units for a trophy bull. In Idaho last year, I was seeing elk everyday - I can't say the same for the open bull units in Utah. The spike units I have hunted I see elk, but nothing that I am able to shoot. It's been a catch 22 hunting in Utah for elk.*
> 
> ...


*Idaho: The ultimate back-up plan for when you don't draw a tag. *

*Elk Tags ~ 400 NR*
*Deer Tags ~ 300 NR*

*Deer/Elk tags are also good for Bear/Cougar/Wolf instead of a Deer/Elk.*


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

Uber said:


> The "average hunter" should read the Big Game Application book.


 You're absolutely right.

The problem is that only half of the loophole is found in the application guide book. If you read the guide book, you should clearly understand that if you don't draw your first choice, regardless of if you draw your 2nd - 5th choice you get a preference point. But the part about how your preference points will allow you to draw your 2nd - 5th choice before someone else's 1st choice if that person has less points than you is not in the book; you have to go to the DWR website and surf around to find it, and even then it goes against logic. I had to read it several times and ask for confirmation to be sure that's really how the general buck draw was done. Why would a tag be given to someone that basically said "I'll take it if nobody else wants it." by putting the tag as their 5th choice, when someone else said "I really want to hunt this area." by putting the same tag as their 1st choice? And it's the "total number of preference points is king" bit of information that gives incentive to "game" the system. Bottom line for me, is that it's legal so I'm not holding ill will toward anyone that uses the loophole. But at the same time, just because it's legal and open to anyone doesn't mean it's a fair system. Life isn't fair.

I'm just glad that my Nephew drew his tag for his first hunt that he's really excited for, and that tag didn't go to someone else that was thinking, "Well the unit sucks, and I don't know anything about it, but I guess I at least get to hunt for the 20th year in a row."

As a side note, I still don't know why the buck deer tag preference points are not run like every other preference point tag in the state; you draw a tag you lose your points regardless of if it's your 1st or 5th choice.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

willfish4food said:


> You're absolutely right.
> 
> The problem is that only half of the loophole is found in the application guide book. If you read the guide book, you should clearly understand that if you don't draw your first choice, regardless of if you draw your 2nd - 5th choice you get a preference point. But the part about how your preference points will allow you to draw your 2nd - 5th choice before someone else's 1st choice if that person has less points than you is not in the book; you have to go to the DWR website and surf around to find it, and even then it goes against logic. I had to read it several times and ask for confirmation to be sure that's really how the general buck draw was done. Why would a tag be given to someone that basically said "I'll take it if nobody else wants it." by putting the tag as their 5th choice, when someone else said "I really want to hunt this area." by putting the same tag as their 1st choice? And it's the "total number of preference points is king" bit of information that gives incentive to "game" the system. Bottom line for me, is that it's legal so I'm not holding ill will toward anyone that uses the loophole. But at the same time, just because it's legal and open to anyone doesn't mean it's a fair system. Life isn't fair.
> 
> ...


I don't think that is how it works.

There is a difference in Utah between the bonus point and preference point system.

Bonus Point system - you're second choice won't be considered unless there are leftovers If you are not in the top 50% of points, your points are meaningless.

Preference Point system - You're second through fifth choice will be considered after you fail to draw your first choice. Your points matter and will move you ahead of the line.

The only difference in the Utah system vs other systems is the fact that you can draw your second-fifth choice ahead of someone else's number 1 choice. Most other systems, the second choice is only given after all the first choices are selected. In other systems, if you do not draw your first choice you will be given a preference point.


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## nocturnalenemy (Jun 26, 2011)

willfish4food said:


> As a side note, I still don't know why the buck deer tag preference points are not run like every other preference point tag in the state; you draw a tag you lose your points regardless of if it's your 1st or 5th choice.


I understand the reasoning for keeping it this way. It gives everyone a chance to hunt the better (perceived) general season units if you're willing to wait. That way you can still hunt somewhere, even if it's not your first choice, while eventually working up enough points to hunt the unit you really want.

What I don't agree with, though, is that your preference points count for your 2nd-5th choices. I think that if you don't draw your first choice, you should get a bonus point. But that point should not count when looking at your other choices. That way someone's 5th choice, with 1 point, isn't given a tag before someone who wants that unit with their 1st choice, with 0 points.

The main reason I like this solution better than any tag using up points is that these are general season units, not LE, and sitting out a year (or multiple) is LE hunting, not general season.


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## Dahlmer (Sep 12, 2007)

The issue at hand is this. If your points allow you to move to the front of the line, then you should be required to move to the back of the line in the future, ie. you should lose your points. 

I personally prefer that points only apply to 1st choice applications, after that you the draw becomes random for each point tier until there are either no more tags or no more applicants for a given unit. If you draw your 1st choice, you lose your points; otherwise you continue to build points until you draw your 1st choice.

Utah's preference point system is patently unfair in that it allows you to get to the front of the line and stay there even though you used your points to get your tag. It does not effectively move applicants through the system.

Wyoming's bonus point system was originally set up this way, but they quickly recognized the problem and changed it. Otherwise, I would be hunting Region G every year.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I don't think that is how it works.


But it is how it works. From R657-62-9 




> (4) Preference points are forfeited if:
> (a) a person obtains a first-choice hunt general buck deer permit through the drawing;
> (b) a person obtains an antlerless deer, antlerless elk, doe pronghorn, Sandhill Crane, Sharp-tailed grouse, Greater sage grouse or Swan permit through the drawing;


So for any other preference point species or doe deer, you lose your preference points if you draw no matter which choice you draw. Buck deer is the only tag on the preference point system that if you draw and if it's not your first choice you keep your points. 



MuscleWhitefish said:


> Bonus Point system - you're second choice won't be considered unless there are leftovers *If you are not in the top 50% of points, your points are meaningless.*


 
Your points do matter even if you're not one of the the top bonus point holders that would qualify for the reserved 50% of the tags. After the bonus permits are given, the remaining permits are given to the people with the lowest randomly assigned number. You get an assigned number at random for each point you have, and the more numbers you're assigned the better chances you have to get a number low enough for a permit. 

From R657-62-8


> (5)(a) Each applicant receives a random drawing number for:
> (i) each species applied for; and
> (ii) each bonus point for that species.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

nocturnalenemy said:


> I understand the reasoning for keeping it this way. It gives everyone a chance to hunt the better (perceived) general season units if you're willing to wait. That way you can still hunt somewhere, even if it's not your first choice, while eventually working up enough points to hunt the unit you really want. I can understand that.
> 
> What I don't agree with, though, is that your preference points count for your 2nd-5th choices. I think that if you don't draw your first choice, you should get a bonus point. But that point should not count when looking at your other choices. That way someone's 5th choice, with 1 point, isn't given a tag before someone who wants that unit with their 1st choice, with 0 points.
> 
> The main reason I like this solution better than any tag using up points is that these are general season units, not LE, and sitting out a year (or multiple) is LE hunting, not general season.





Dahlmer said:


> The issue at hand is this. If your points allow you to move to the front of the line, then you should be required to move to the back of the line in the future, ie. you should lose your points.
> 
> I personally prefer that points only apply to 1st choice applications, after that you the draw becomes random for *each point tier do you mean choice tier? *until there are either no more tags or no more applicants for a given unit. If you draw your 1st choice, you lose your points; otherwise you continue to build points until you draw your 1st choice.
> 
> Utah's preference point system is patently unfair in that it allows you to get to the front of the line and stay there even though you used your points to get your tag. It does not effectively move applicants through the system.


I agree with both of these posts and could get behind these systems. Alternatively, why couldn't they look at all first choice applicants for a unit and give permits in order of highest to lowest preference points and do that for all units. Then look at second choice applicants and again award highest to lowest; any applicants that already drew their first choice would obviously not be considered for the second choice draw. Repeat for choices 3-5 till all permits are gone. Then only take preference points for first choice draws.

This would allow you to save points to get your preferred unit while still having hunting opportunity elsewhere, but not be putting you at the front of the line for all five of your chosen units.


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## hawkeye (Feb 18, 2008)

Most people I have spoken to have no clue that an applicant with preference points can draw a general deer tag that is his 5th choice over an applicant with less or no preference points who listed that unit as his first choice *and that applicant also gets to keep his preference points and get another point for next year.* As previously posted, this is akin to allowing preference point holders to go to the front of the line and then keep going to the front of the line year after year. What is the solution? A couple of fairly simple fixes come to mind. Option 1, allocate tags based upon 1st choice for all applicants and only move to second choice if there are tags left over after filling all applicants' first choice selection. This is how Utah handles its LE and OIL drawings. I am even okay with allowing an applicant who draws a second choice tag to get another bonus points under this scenario. Option 2, impose a rule that anybody who draws a tag (1st through 5th choice) loses their bonus points. Personally, I prefer Option 1 because it is simpler and it mirrors what Utah is already doing with LE and OIL hunts.

Utah's current system is broke and unfair. To use another analogy, we are allowing folks to have their cake and eat it too. Whoever thought up this system should be fired because it makes absolutely no sense.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Am I wrong in my remembering that this loophole was discussed this past year and left alone? Anyone know why?


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Yes!


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Sounds like this DC fellow is quite the toolbag.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

The Board chose to kick the can down the road after the DWR said they might be looking at points this year. The Board didn't necessarily like the "use points for any choice" proposal. In the end it was easier for them to do nothing.

As has been stated, by others who comprehend the problem, the easiest way to fix it is to assign permits by points for all first choices. Anyone who draws first choice looses their points. Then everyone is pooled together for 2nd choice and they work through all 2nd choice and then onto 3rd choice and so on. Luck of the draw for 2nd-5th choices. A guy can build points if he wants to wait for a certain tag and have a chance to hunt other units as a 2nd-5th choice. Other states do just that.


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

I agree, it would be more of a colorado style system. It sounds like the DWR has it on the table to address in 2015 then. Im sure this will get addressed then.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Not a bad idea Packout. I think the biggest problem with pulling points if 2nd-5th choice is drawn would be the amount of under subscribed tags. Under subscribed tags create added hassle and or possible lost revenue to the division. I believe a change will happen at some point. When and if it does I'll adjust my strategy along with others.


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