# Wow, spike hunts during LE elk hunt



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37400882&ni...g-2-utah-elk-hunts-at-same-time&s_cid=queue-1



> DWR is recommending a change that has never happened in Utah: allowing limited-entry rifle elk hunters and general spike rifle elk hunters to hunt some of the same units at the same time.


Someones going to be pizzed spending 20 points for a LE elk tag to have someone else run off the bulls while firing at spikes.

-DallanC


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## ut1031 (Sep 13, 2007)

There are only a few units that this is being proposed.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

No worse that other states with cow hunts going on in units it takes 20 years to draw in or cow hunts going on when others are hunting spikes. Or muzzle loader hunts going on at the same time that archery seasons are happening. Then there are states like Colorado where you have deer hunters out at the same time that elk hunters are out. 

It's hunting


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## BradN (Sep 25, 2007)

They trying to shoot out Fishlake again?


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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

Nope its a LE hunt during the GS spike hunt, and its on a trial basis of only a few areas. 2 fold idea, 1, it supposed to help with point creep (not sure how because the permit numbers will be the same), 2, the bulls get slaughtered on the November hunt (most all of this is based on the Wasatch unit) , the success rate is actually higher on the late hunt then the early hunt.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Read the small print.......

Remove tags from the rifle rut hunt......

_"The new hunt, which would be held in mid-October, is designed to move some permits out of the early rifle hunt - where demand for permits is highest - and place them in a hunt that might provide better drawing odds, DWR said."_

This is the start of moving rifle tags out of the rut........


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## GeTaGrip (Jun 24, 2014)

Clairification. They won't add more "any bull pemits" to the units, just reduce the number of available permits on the early and late hunt.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

Huntoholic said:


> R
> This is the start of moving rifle tags out of the rut........


Not a bad thing IMO.


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## stick&string89 (Jun 21, 2012)

Huntoholic said:


> Read the small print.......
> 
> Remove tags from the rifle rut hunt......
> 
> ...


That would be awesome if the rifle hunt wasn't prime rut.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

DallenC, If someone with 20 points puts in for one of these new hunts the only person they should be upset with is themself for choosing that hunt! But for the person with only a handful of points and just wants the opportunity to hunt branch antlered bulls these new hunts are an option to look into.

BradN, I think it will work great on FL. 40% of the rifle tags taken out of the peak of the rut and moved to mid October should mean more of the mature bulls making it through the hunts. It will also mean less competition if you hold out for and draw the early rifle tag. Sound like a win win to me. The trophy hunter will have less people to deal with during their early season rut hunt and the opportunity hunter will get the chance to hunt bulls with a rifle without having to wait 15-20 years.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Personally I think they should move all elk hunts out of the rut. This should remove the in-fighting and should open more tags for branched antlered.

But alas it is more important to give a few elect a bigger selection to choose from.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I saw more big bulls during the general rifle hunt than spikes for sure. If it helps move people through the butt plug why not?


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

They already do the spike/cow hunts during the Archery LE elk hunts in a lot of areas. Has ruined the LE tags on those units. A friend of mine had an Archery LE tag a couple of years ago. 
Was a joke !!!! 
I have quit putting in for the Archery LE elk.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Gotta give them a little credit. 

What do you do when too many people are applying for hunts that have a boat load of points?

You give them options to disperse those points into more options.

I do think the bigger issue is the inability to for the Utah DWR to manage elk on private lands. 

What I would like to see is CMWU's go to a 1 public to 1 private permit, because they would also help push people through. 

Maybe have a land owner hunter program where people get certified/vetted as prime candidates for hunts on private land. That way the opportunity is there and the land owners do not have to worry about bullet holes or broken fences.


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Huntoholic said:


> Personally I think they should move all elk hunts out of the rut. This should remove the in-fighting and should open more tags for branched antlered.
> 
> But alas it is more important to give a few elect a bigger selection to choose from.


I agree! We should not hunt bull elk at all from mid august to the end of December! That's how long it takes for bulls to breed 2nd and 3rd estrus cows. We shouldn't allow cow elk hunting during this time either.

We need to insure that all cows are bread properly before we start killing all of them. This will insure prime genetics stay in the herd!. We need to stop killing older bulls during the rut!


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> I do think the bigger issue is the inability to for the Utah DWR to manage elk on private lands.
> 
> Maybe have a land owner hunter program where people get certified/vetted as prime candidates for hunts on private land. That way the opportunity is there and the land owners do not have to worry about bullet holes or broken fences.


Agreed! One thing I love about hunting Wyoming, other than the amount of animals, is that your tag comes with a landowner voucher. This provides more of an incentive for landowners to let you on.

Some states also have a list of landowners that have given permission for their names and numbers to be given out to public hunters looking for ground to hunt. This completely facilitates the process since the landowners can be contacted, control who comes and when, etc. I have used such lists to contact landowners and have been very satisfied with the process.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Shooting big breeder bulls during the middle of Sept with a rifle is plain irresponsible, clearly a method to get recognition of being a trophy quality state - nothing more, nothing less.

Pretty much all elk bearing western states have very similar hunt dates relative to weapon choice, except UT, and those states do not suffer in population management and elk herd head count.

And, hunting elk in Sept with archery equipment will not have a negative affect on elk populations or rut activity, especially if you shut it down on the 20th or so. The average success rates for public land multi-permit (100-200) hunts runs about 15% - and that is not all bull kills.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Elkaholic2 said:


> I agree! We should not hunt bull elk at all from mid august to the end of December! That's how long it takes for bulls to breed 2nd and 3rd estrus cows. We shouldn't allow cow elk hunting during this time either.
> 
> We need to insure that all cows are bread properly before we start killing all of them. This will insure prime genetics stay in the herd!. We need to stop killing older bulls during the rut!


My comment about removing the hunts out of the rut has nothing to do with the breeding. It is purely to remove the in-fighting and division it is causing the hunting community. The simple fact is everybody wants to hunt the MAIN part of the rut. Solution is nobody gets too.

The other simple fact is that this move will not remove the Butt Plug. The only thing that will remove said plug is to increase the number of tags. With the number of people putting in for LE elk tags, moving tags for one bucket to another bucket will do nothing for the Butt Plug......


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Gotta give them a little credit.
> 
> What do you do when too many people are applying for hunts that have a boat load of points?
> 
> ...


I give credit where credit is do and with this issue NO credit is do.

The fact is the herd and age of the elk has increased. Not only increased but exceeded their carrying capacity. The solution is to increase the number of permits. Hence the start of the removal of the Butt Plug. But their solution is to remove tags from the hunt of a life time and give you an any bull hunt and charge you more for that privilege. The only groups that this move will make happy is the archers, CMWU, and the people with more than 15 points.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

I think it's great. We always complain about those pesky spike hunters that screw things up for the LE hunters (particularly with archery). But why doesn't anyone ever say anything about those gosh darn bull hunters that screw things up for us spike hunters???

I can't tell you how many times I've had to deal with people "scouting bulls" during MY hunts! LE tags just give people a false sense of entitlement. 

I'm glad to see some rifle tags moving out of the rut.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Only raising the number of tags will help the butt plug


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Huntoholic said:


> I agree! We should not hunt bull elk at all from mid august to the end of December! That's how long it takes for bulls to breed 2nd and 3rd estrus cows. We shouldn't allow cow elk hunting during this time either.
> 
> We need to insure that all cows are bread properly before we start killing all of them. This will insure prime genetics stay in the herd!. We need to stop killing older bulls during the rut!


What??? When do you propose to hunt them? On the winter range or during the summer? Hunting elk (or any big game animal for that matter) is not going to screw up their breeding so long as number of tags given out is not too generous. Look at the LE muzzy and early rifle hunts as well as the late LE rifle hunts. There seem to be plenty of mature bulls the following year. There must be some breeding being done somewhere! Remember, alot of those bigger bulls killed have already passed on their genes for 3-4 years. Just because you kill some of them doesn't mean quality is going to go down...again so long as tag numbers are not too liberal.

That said - I agree with moving some of the rifle tags out of the rut to create more opportunity. Those that want an all but "guaranteed" hunt can continue to apply year after year for the early rifle while those that just want to hunt a mature branch antlered bull can do so later in Oct.


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Sorry huntoholic for the sarcasm! But really? Don't let anyone hunt the rut? the state of utah offers ample rut hunt opportunity for all three weapon types. 

Archery: archery hunters gets almost get a week to themselves during the best time to call in a big bull.

Rifle: The rifle hunters gets 9 days to themselves during or almost the peak depending on where your at. 

Muzzy hunters gets 3 days to themselves and then has to hunt with general season deer hunters. They get the tale end or peak of the rut depending on location. 

Leave the season structure how it is. The units that are over objective on bull/Coe ratios. Offer more bull tags in October! I'd apply for one. Let the guys that want to hunt in mid September hunt it if they want to wait that long to draw a tag! Or better yet! If you want to hunt branch antler bulls every year. I believe the state offers an over the counter any bull tag! Which opens during the tale end of the rut! 

The "butt plug" will only go away if you issue more tags! Moving tags Around is asinine.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

The elk don't calm down the day after the spike hunts end. They have been pushed around for 3 weeks by everyone with a spike tag. It takes time for them to get back to their routine. 
The last week of the LE archery hunts is not a cakewalk. The bulls are still very skittish. 
Sorry, but if I am using my points and spending $350+ bucks. Should get the same quality hunt as rifle and muzzle hunters. 
Just my opinion.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Moving tags out of the September rifle hunt will help the point plug in the long run. The new October hunt will surely have lower success rates than the early hunt. So in the coming years tag numbers would likely increase to achieve harvest objectives.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

PBH nailed it. The issue really comes down to the entitlement mentality. If I have 20 points, and have waited by 20 years to draw a LE premium unit tag, I better get a hunt with no other hunters around, where 380+ bulls abound, and they come running to my badly blown bugle. Is that where we are now folks? It sure sounds like it. Points=entitlement. That is what the system has produced.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

DallanC said:


> http://www.ksl.com/?sid=37400882&ni...g-2-utah-elk-hunts-at-same-time&s_cid=queue-1
> 
> Someones going to be pizzed spending 20 points for a LE elk tag to have someone else run off the bulls while firing at spikes.
> 
> -DallanC


What about that dumbass LE hunter who runs off my spike?


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

MWScott72 said:


> What??? When do you propose to hunt them? On the winter range or during the summer? Hunting elk (or any big game animal for that matter) is not going to screw up their breeding so long as number of tags given out is not too generous. Look at the LE muzzy and early rifle hunts as well as the late LE rifle hunts. There seem to be plenty of mature bulls the following year. There must be some breeding being done somewhere! Remember, alot of those bigger bulls killed have already passed on their genes for 3-4 years. Just because you kill some of them doesn't mean quality is going to go down...again so long as tag numbers are not too liberal.
> 
> That said - I agree with moving some of the rifle tags out of the rut to create more opportunity. Those that want an all but "guaranteed" hunt can continue to apply year after year for the early rifle while those that just want to hunt a mature branch antlered bull can do so later in Oct.


I didn't say the above......


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Elkaholic2 said:


> Sorry huntoholic for the sarcasm! But really? Don't let anyone hunt the rut? the state of utah offers ample rut hunt opportunity for all three weapon types.
> 
> Archery: archery hunters gets almost get a week to themselves during the best time to call in a big bull.
> 
> ...


Well guess what? The DWR is not going to leave the structure the way it is. You can hope and dream all you want. This issue is about removing the rifle hunters from the rut. Period............It is not about increasing tags or opportunity for the hunters.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I hate and despise the LE hunts. I firmly believe this has caused more division in the hunting community then any other issue. Half the State is setup for the hunting of the few instead of just setup to hunt the excess animals. PBH and Garyfish nailed it on entitlement. And those entitled groups what more entitlement and it will be at the expense of the rifle hunter who just wants to hunt..............


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

huntinfanatic said:


> Moving tags out of the September rifle hunt will help the point plug in the long run. The new October hunt will surely have lower success rates than the early hunt. So in the coming years tag numbers would likely increase to achieve harvest objectives.


Please explain how moving "X" number of tags from one window of time to another removes the Butt Plug. They are not increasing the tags just moving them. You are kidding yourself if you think they are going to increase the rifle tags. They will increase other groups tags but rifle..........Fat chance.


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Huntoholic said:


> Well guess what? The DWR is not going to leave the structure the way it is. You can hope and dream all you want. This issue is about removing the rifle hunters from the rut. Period............It is not about increasing tags or opportunity for the hunters.
> 
> I have said it before and I will say it again. I hate and despise the LE hunts. I firmly believe this has caused more division in the hunting community then any other issue. Half the State is setup for the hunting of the few instead of just setup to hunt the excess animals. PBH and Garyfish nailed it on entitlement. And those entitled groups what more entitlement and it ill be at the expense of the rifle hunter who just wants to hunt..............


What's your proposal? What would you do? Where's your plan to fix the problem? I want to see it. Maybe you have an idea that would work.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

My solution would be to reduce the number of specialized hunts. You can have one unit, and 9-12 different specialized hunts for that unit. LE Archery. Management archery. Cow archery. Spike archer. Same go-round for muzzy and rifle. Early season. Late season. Mid Season. On top of deer hunts, and OIL hunts. At any given time, you can have 6 different "hunts" going on. There are so many efforts to cater to every specialization, no one is happy. 

As for the entitlement mentality - I don't know how to deal with that. That is a thing that permeates the culture in Utah (far beyond the hunting community) unlike any other state I've lived. It is why aggressive drivers dart in and out of traffic to get to the red light before you do. Utah in general has a culture of entitlement unlike any place I've seen. And the point system for drawing tags, though intended to make sure everyone at some point will get a tag, when superimposed on the Utah entitlement culture has turned into the idea that if I wait 20 years to draw a tag, then I darn well better get to take my pick from record book class animals and no one else to jack up my experience. 

So all that said - what is my proposal? What would I do? I'd eliminate the many specializations and specialized hunts. An elk tag is an elk tag. I'd eliminate the LE areas. For the most part, an elk tag would be good for any unit in the state, and good for archery, muzzy, and rifle hunts. If additional management is needed for certain units to bring populations into alignment with objectives, then issue additional unit-specific management bull or cow tags that are good only on those units. In other words - use hunters to manage game populations. Instead, we use the tag allocation system to manage hunters. Big difference. 

As for the Utah entitlement culture - I have no proposal or idea on how to fix that. I left, so that is my solution. But I think I read something written by John Gierach that said to the effect that urban people expect the world to be perfect, and are pissed when it isn't. And rural people expect the world to go to heck, and are pleased when it doesn't. And with 90% of Utah's population living in the SLOP (Salt Lake Ogden Provo) corridor, you have that total urban mentality and expectation.


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

GaryFish said:


> My solution would be to reduce the number of specialized hunts. You can have one unit, and 9-12 different specialized hunts for that unit. LE Archery. Management archery. Cow archery. Spike archer. Same go-round for muzzy and rifle. Early season. Late season. Mid Season. On top of deer hunts, and OIL hunts. At any given time, you can have 6 different "hunts" going on. There are so many efforts to cater to every specialization, no one is happy.
> 
> As for the entitlement mentality - I don't know how to deal with that. That is a thing that permeates the culture in Utah (far beyond the hunting community) unlike any other state I've lived. It is why aggressive drivers dart in and out of traffic to get to the red light before you do. Utah in general has a culture of entitlement unlike any place I've seen. And the point system for drawing tags, though intended to make sure everyone at some point will get a tag, when superimposed on the Utah entitlement culture has turned into the idea that if I wait 20 years to draw a tag, then I darn well better get to take my pick from record book class animals and no one else to jack up my experience.
> 
> ...


Interesting! Keep them coming. When I have some more free time later today. I'll post mine!


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Elkaholic2 said:


> What's your proposal? What would you do? Where's your plan to fix the problem? I want to see it. Maybe you have an idea that would work.


To have us agree on an idea that would work depends on our expectations. I can pretty well guess you and I don't have the same expectations. Maybe I'm wrong, but mine are pretty simple.

I like to hunt. I don't need to have a canned hunt. I don't have to have a trophy animal tied to a tree or have one looking at me from around every bush. I don't have to wake up on opening morning of the hunt and the biggest decision is which 6 point to shoot. I don't worry about other people busting my hunt because I know I can figure out where they won't go. I don't judge a hunt by the number of guys on the road.

I just need a tag. I will do the rest. I will decide what animal I will harvest. I will not feel bad if I don't harvest an animal.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I had an interesting conversation with a gentleman about this issue of moving some of the tags from the September hunt to an October hunt. His attitude is exactly what GaryFish pointed out - - entitled! After his little crying session of how he has been applying for "xyz" unit for years, and now he may have to wait a couple more years for a tag if they move tags out of the early rifle season; I asked him one question, "Do you apply for other states as well?" He responsed, "No, its too expensive." Yet, this gentleman always drives a new truck, has new atv's, etc. 

I personally apply for Utah, Wyoming, Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico because I want to share as many fun hunting adventures as possible with my children. Another reason is that I don't want to be at the mercy of one state's management practices.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

CPAjeff said:


> I had an interesting conversation with a gentleman about this issue of moving some of the tags from the September hunt to an October hunt. His attitude is exactly what GaryFish pointed out - - entitled! After his little crying session of how he has been applying for "xyz" unit for years, and now he may have to wait a couple more years for a tag if they move tags out of the early rifle season; I asked him one question, "Do you apply for other states as well?" He response, "No, its too expensive." Yet, this gentleman always drives a new truck, has new atv's, etc.
> 
> I personally apply for Utah, Wyoming, Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico because I want to share as many fun hunting adventures as possible with my children. Another reason is that I don't want to be at the mercy of one state's management practices.


And he is the same guy who said he would gladly wait a long time for that one chance.


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

Entitlement has nothing to do with it.
If I believed in entitlement, I would of voted for Obama.


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## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

Huntoholic said:


> Please explain how moving "X" number of tags from one window of time to another removes the Butt Plug. They are not increasing the tags just moving them. You are kidding yourself if you think they are going to increase the rifle tags. They will increase other groups tags but rifle..........Fat chance.


You are right, it probably doesn't get rid of the plug for a while. However, it does offer additional opportunities for people who don't necessarily have to hunt during the early season. Over the course of time this will naturally lower the backlog because some hunters are taking the non-rut hunts and going with the October or November hunts. True there are only the same amount of tags, but they are splitting the amount of people in each of the pools. Therefore, in theory, giving better draw odds.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

GaryFish said:


> PBH nailed it. The issue really comes down to the entitlement mentality. If I have 20 points, and have waited by 20 years to draw a LE premium unit tag, I better get a hunt with no other hunters around, where 380+ bulls abound, and they come running to my badly blown bugle. Is that where we are now folks? It sure sounds like it. Points=entitlement. That is what the system has produced.


That's why they call this the "Quality Era", the other names don't sound as nice.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

gwailow said:


> You are right, it probably doesn't get rid of the plug for a while. However, it does offer additional opportunities for people who don't necessarily have to hunt during the early season. Over the course of time this will naturally lower the backlog because some hunters are taking the non-rut hunts and going with the October or November hunts. True there are only the same amount of tags, but they are splitting the amount of people in each of the pools. Therefore, in theory, giving better draw odds.


But did you account for those that are coming in. The new comers. While not what it used to be I would take a guess that the so called new comers will continue to out pace the few extra tags that might be added by the DWR.

I think one of the best starts to remove the Butt Plug would be forfeit points for any permit used. Elk bull tag this year = No Elk point. Get a buck deer tag = No buck point.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Huntoholic said:


> But did you account for those that are coming in. The new comers. While not what it used to be I would take a guess that the so called new comers will continue to out pace the few extra tags that might be added by the DWR.


I don't buy this one bit...

The DWR data going back to 2007 shows a very different story:
Number of applicants in 2007: 43,681
Number of applicants in 2015: 45,068
An increase of 3.2%

Number of LE bull elk tags issued in 2007: 2,065
Number of LE bull elk tags issued in 2015: 2,734
An increase of 32.4%

Seems to me that the number of tags being offered is outpacing the number of applicants. 
And you cannot bring up the addition of new hunters to make point without also considering attrition of old ones. One could surmise based upon the data from 2007 to 2015 that the addition of "new hunters" is almost negated by the loss of "old hunters" leaving the application pools.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

derekp1999 said:


> I don't buy this one bit...
> 
> The DWR data going back to 2007 shows a very different story:
> Number of applicants in 2007: 43,681
> ...


Interesting....... Impart I stand corrected.....

I still have concerns based on your numbers. Is 32.4% increase over an 8 year period sustainable on a herd that is close to carrying capacity? I don't believe so, while I think 3% is on the hunters side is. At the current trend as indicated above just to maintain this point in time you would need to add 83 tags every year. I will have to think a bit more about this.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

derekp1999 said:


> I don't buy this one bit...
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


I would like to see how the new "Mentor" program tweaks these numbers. I am amazed how many people I talk to who used it this year. The DWR should have the #'s of participants at this point, I wonder if they ever plan to release the statistics.

-DallanC


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

An interesting look is at the year over year numbers instead of just making the comparison between '07 and '15...

- 2007 to 2008: 4.3% decrease in applicants & 13.9% increase in tags
- 2008 to 2009: 2.1% decrease in applicants & 7.4% increase in tags
- 2009 to 2010: 0.7% increase in applicants & 8.6% increase in tags
- 2010 to 2012: 5.4% decrease in applicants & 5.7% decrease in tags (I mysteriously don't have the 2011 data)
- 2012 to 2013: 3.7% increase in applicants & 1.3% decrease in tags
- 2013 to 2014: 3.9% increase in applicants & 2.2% increase in tags
- 2014 to 2015: 7.3% increase in applicants & 4.9% increase in tags



DallanC said:


> I would like to see how the new "Mentor" program tweaks these numbers. I am amazed how many people I talk to who used it this year. The DWR should have the #'s of participants at this point, I wonder if they ever plan to release the statistics.


How big of an effect the Mentor Program has on the drawing may not be able to be perfectly quantified... but it is interesting to note that the greatest increase in applicants was between this year and last year.


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Huntoholic said:


> To have us agree on an idea that would work depends on our expectations. I can pretty well guess you and I don't have the same expectations. Maybe I'm wrong, but mine are pretty simple.
> 
> I like to hunt. I don't need to have a canned hunt. I don't have to have a trophy animal tied to a tree or have one looking at me from around every bush. I don't have to wake up on opening morning of the hunt and the biggest decision is which 6 point to shoot. I don't worry about other people busting my hunt because I know I can figure out where they won't go. I don't judge a hunt by the number of guys on the road.
> 
> I just need a tag. I will do the rest. I will decide what animal I will harvest. I will not feel bad if I don't harvest an animal.


So do you buy an any bull or spike tag every year? The reason I ask is because you say that you want the opportunity. Which is already provided. But your making the argument that you never get to hunt because of the limited entry hunts? So I'm trying to figure why you (I'm assuming) apply for LE elk hunts. If all you want is just a tag every year. And a "trophy" bull isn't a factor.

I hunt elk every year. And by no means have I ever killed a " trophy" by other people standards. My best "trophy" is a rag 5 pt that I killed with my 4 year old by my side. And that's not my biggest elk. But it's my best memory elk hunting. 
At the same time. I would like a chance(key word "chance") to harvest a 9 year old bull someday. The likely way this would be possible is to utilize the LE process. Sure there is a possibility of harvesting a very old bull on any bull units. But the odds are stacked against me.

I'm for opportunity. I also like the idea of quality. I'm the same way when I fish for trout and salmon. Quantity: I head for the uintas. Quality: I head to the berry or the gorge. It's ok to like and favor both!

I have to ask. Do you apply for LE elk and why? If you don't why? Do you take advantage of the OTC tags? Do you apply for cow tags? What's your definition of trophy?

Not trying to fight or argue. Just trying to understand your point of view. I feel that the "pimping" of utahs wildlife is getting worse. And what's a trophy or quality animal is being defined the wrong way. Look at the conservation expo! Where the conservation? All I see is if you don't have a 380 bull on the wall then your not an elk hunter! If you don't have a 200" buck on the wall. Then your not a deer hunter. What a joke.

Like I said. I favor opportunity. I also like quality. It's ok to have both.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Huntohlic2 is spot on!
I hunt over a 100 days a year with a nice mix of quality and opportunity hunts.
Its AWESOME to have both!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Opps^^^^ elkaholic2.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Huntoholic said:


> MWScott72 said:
> 
> 
> > What??? When do you propose to hunt them? On the winter range or during the summer? Hunting elk (or any big game animal for that matter) is not going to screw up their breeding so long as number of tags given out is not too generous. Look at the LE muzzy and early rifle hunts as well as the late LE rifle hunts. There seem to be plenty of mature bulls the following year. There must be some breeding being done somewhere! Remember, alot of those bigger bulls killed have already passed on their genes for 3-4 years. Just because you kill some of them doesn't mean quality is going to go down...again so long as tag numbers are not too liberal.
> ...


My bad. It was Elkaholic.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Huntoholic, To answer your question. Yes, simply moving tags out the rut should mean lower success rates which in turn would mean increasing tags in years to come to meet harvest objectives therefor increasing opportunity. If you knew the criteria the DWR uses to come up with tags numbers it wouldn't be hard to understand. 

As for your comment about the dwr not raising rifle permits if success is lower, that they would only add archery or muzzy tags. Once again, if you knew how the DWR split tags amongst weapon types you would know your comment is 100% false.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

CPAjeff said:


> I had an interesting conversation with a gentleman about this issue of moving some of the tags from the September hunt to an October hunt. His attitude is exactly what GaryFish pointed out - - entitled! After his little crying session of how he has been applying for "xyz" unit for years, and now he may have to wait a couple more years for a tag if they move tags out of the early rifle season; I asked him one question, "Do you apply for other states as well?" He responsed, "No, its too expensive." Yet, this gentleman always drives a new truck, has new atv's, etc.
> 
> I personally apply for Utah, Wyoming, Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico because I want to share as many fun hunting adventures as possible with my children. Another reason is that I don't want to be at the mercy of one state's management practices.


You should add Nevada and potentially Oregon to your list.

Nevada you could get a couple Mule Deer tags on your way to an elk permit, plus they give you 5 choices in each draw (5 choices are looked at before the they move to the next number) and all pretty much you have to do is pull a low number and you'll hunt.

Oregon you could get lucky on an OIL, but you could still hunt Blacktails every year or other year if you wanted too.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Huntoholic said:


> But did you account for those that are coming in. The new comers. While not what it used to be I would take a guess that the so called new comers will continue to out pace the few extra tags that might be added by the DWR.
> 
> I think one of the best starts to remove the Butt Plug would be forfeit points for any permit used. Elk bull tag this year = No Elk point. Get a buck deer tag = No buck point.


I would also be for no group applications. They way you cannot hop of your cousins 25 points and get into a different unit after the waiting period.


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

Elkaholic2 said:


> .


I like your example with fishing. You decided where you wanted to fish. That is the difference. Today if you wanted to take the kids fishing you would take them to a place where size may not matter. Tomorrow you could go with the diehard buddies and try for a wall hanger. Permit to fish is the same.

Whether I fish the community pond or Strawberry the permit is the same. 
I guess it is hard to explain about what you are calling opportunity. Part of our difference is the definition of opportunity. I have harvested spikes and cows. I understand if that is what I wanted I could hunt most every year. But at this point in my life the harvesting of an animal is just not important. I like to hunt for things that are unusual. I don't have to take one every year but I want to hunt. I would bet that in the last 15 years I have taken less animals then you. Not because I could not find them but because I chose not to. So in the area I like to hunt, pretty much zero chance to ever hunt a branched antler elk. Other than going to a north (cause that is where the any areas are). I did that when I was in my 40's. Just did not care for it (area wise). No other opportunity available for me.

To answer your first question I have not hunted elk in the last 2 years. Previous 10 years was muzzleloader spike elk. I am pretty much the last of my group. Younger guys have lost interest and older guys are dead. 
Every unit in the state of Utah has old bulls. Every unit. But you seem to be happy waiting 15 years for that one chance to go to a special unit. I am not. I believe that controlling the number of excess animals on a unit is all the DWR should be doing. You want that 9 year old bull, go find him. He is there. There just won't be 50 of them on one hill side.

Your last paragraph is right on.

Your last sentence should be balanced by area as well.

Thank you for the conversation&#8230;&#8230;


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

huntinfanatic said:


> Huntoholic, To answer your question. Yes, simply moving tags out the rut should mean lower success rates which in turn would mean increasing tags in years to come to meet harvest objectives therefor increasing opportunity. If you knew the criteria the DWR uses to come up with tags numbers it wouldn't be hard to understand.
> 
> As for your comment about the dwr not raising rifle permits if success is lower, that they would only add archery or muzzy tags. Once again, if you knew how the DWR split tags amongst weapon types you would know your comment is 100% false.


Key word is "should".

Harvest objectives, I believe, are already being met. In some cases the herds are over objective. So there has to be another reason. If just having more opportunity was the reason they would be increasing tags at the start and not waiting.

So are the convention/auction tags part of the 60/20/20 split? Can't remember. I would guess and say no. The goal is to reduce the success of the rifle hunter.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

Huntoholic said:


> Please explain how moving "X" number of tags from one window of time to another removes the Butt Plug. They are not increasing the tags just moving them. You are kidding yourself if you think they are going to increase the rifle tags. They will increase other groups tags but rifle..........Fat chance.


This below is made up numbers proving or disproving the notion that it will remove the butt plug.

Take 1000 hunters applying for 100 permits

Distribute the hunters as 200 bow hunters, 200 muzzle-loader hunters, 400 rifle hunters, and 200 premium hunters.

Distribute the permits as 25 bow permits, 20 muzzle-loader permits, 45(22/23) rifle permits, and 10 premium permits.

25 people out of the 200 are taken out of the pool and 12 are taken out of the bonus point pool in archery.

20 people out of the 200 are taken out of the pool and 10 are taken out of the bonus point pool in muzzle loader.

22 people out of the 400 are taken out of the pool and 11 are taken out of the bonus point pool in rifle.

23 people out of the 400 are taken out of the pool and 12 are taken out of the bonus point pool in rifle.

10 people out of the 200 are taken out of the pool and 5 are taken out of the bonus point pool in premium.

Now add a middle rifle and distribute the permits in rifle as 15 across the board.

25 people out of the 200 are taken out of the pool and 12 are taken out of the bonus point pool in archery.

20 people out of the 200 are taken out of the pool and 10 are taken out of the bonus point pool in muzzle loader.

15 people out of the 400 are taken out of the pool and 7 are taken out of the bonus point pool in rifle.

15 people out of the 400 are taken out of the pool and 7 are taken out of the bonus point pool in rifle.

15 people out of the 400 are taken out of the pool and 7 are taken out of the bonus point pool in rifle.

10 people out of the 200 are taken out of the pool and 5 are taken out of the bonus point pool in premium.

A couple things to consider. The top points preference pool shrinks by two permits in the proposed system. The bonus point draw increases by two permits.

Depending on the actual distribution of the 400 rifle permits it will influence all draws.

Distributed (ER,MR,LR)50%/25%/25% odds for drawing 3:37, 3:17, 3:17

Distributed (ER,MR,LR) 60%/10%/40% odds for drawing 1:15, 3:5, 3:29

vs Current

Distributed (ER,LR) 50%/50% odds for drawing 11:89, 23:177
Distributed (ER,LR) 75%/25% odds for drawing 11:150, 23:77

Note: Odds for- how many people draw per how many people don't.Look at it like a dice, the odds of you rolling a 1 are 1 chance of the dice and 5 chances on the dice that you do not. It would be ratio of 1:5. To calculate the probability (%) I would have to distribute the amount of points and bonus points and add them back into the equation to pump out a number as your chances of drawing.

*Too Long Didn't Read: It doesn't move people through the system faster, but it can give people in the system better draw odds. *


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## Kwalk3 (Jun 21, 2012)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> This below is made up numbers proving or disproving the notion that it will remove the butt plug.
> 
> Take 1000 hunters applying for 100 permits
> 
> ...


Thanks for explaining that without using the words "butt plug".


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## Bucksnbulls08 (Sep 18, 2008)

I think this is fair, should be all units. DWR already sacrifices the bowhunt and muzzy hunt this way. Why are the primative weapons hunters discriminated against and rifle hunters get the prime time without any other hunters in the field?
I am personally against the spike hunts on LE units but if we are going to have them, make it the same for all weapon choices.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

For those who want to see the elk point 
Pool cleared out heres the answer.
Remove spike only hunting from the
Manti and Wasatch units, issue 5k Le
Elk tags in October. 
The meat hunters can shoot cows, not spikes.

This would clear the "but plug" QUICK !
Just a thought.


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

Huntoholic said:


> I like your example with fishing. You decided where you wanted to fish. That is the difference. Today if you wanted to take the kids fishing you would take them to a place where size may not matter. Tomorrow you could go with the diehard buddies and try for a wall hanger. Permit to fish is the same.
> 
> Whether I fish the community pond or Strawberry the permit is the same.
> I guess it is hard to explain about what you are calling opportunity. Part of our difference is the definition of opportunity. I have harvested spikes and cows. I understand if that is what I wanted I could hunt most every year. But at this point in my life the harvesting of an animal is just not important. I like to hunt for things that are unusual. I don't have to take one every year but I want to hunt. I would bet that in the last 15 years I have taken less animals then you. Not because I could not find them but because I chose not to. So in the area I like to hunt, pretty much zero chance to ever hunt a branched antler elk. Other than going to a north (cause that is where the any areas are). I did that when I was in my 40's. Just did not care for it (area wise). No other opportunity available for me.
> ...


Yes sir,

I'm going over some ideas I'll put them in a plan then post it...

I see what your saying more clearly now.. There are actually several options to look at. Some might not be as good as others. But I think a solution could be made to benefit everyone. To some degree.

Interesting thread a lot being talked about here. Almost need a few different threads going to keep everything in order!


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## Elkaholic2 (Feb 24, 2013)

goofy elk said:


> For those who want to see the elk point
> Pool cleared out heres the answer.
> Remove spike only hunting from the
> Manti and Wasatch units, issue 5k Le
> ...


Goofy,

Generate a plan with hunting seasons applied! I want to see what you come with?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

huntinfanatic said:


> Huntoholic, To answer your question. Yes, simply moving tags out the rut should mean lower success rates which in turn would mean increasing tags in years to come to meet harvest objectives therefor increasing opportunity.


I have noted this in year's past....but, the reality is that moving rifle tags from the rut will NOT make a huge difference in success rates. The reality is that moving rifle tags out of the rut will make only a minute difference and really won't change much. I think many of you greatly exaggerate the difference it would make...we seem to forget that in today's world LE tags means an entire cohort of hunters/helpers who accompany the tag holder and with the technology improvements and the emphasis on harvesting animals on LE hunts, rifle hunters will always harvest a high number of bulls in Utah's limited entry hunts because the number of bulls is high. IF you truly want to lower success rates of LE hunters, the only real way to do it is give fewer tags to rifle hunters and more tags to primitive weapons.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

A few thoughts: 

1- This seems like a bait and switch to me. It isn't adding any tags, so it won't help with point creep at all. I'd argue it will only make it more difficult to draw early rifle tags for those desiring to do that hunt. You can pizz and moan all you want about entitlement, fairness, elitism, or whatever. But there are some people that find the prospect of hunting elk in September appealing, and they like using a rifle. That doesn't make them bad people, entitled, or less of a hunter. So some of you need to come off your high horse. And it won't help the low point holders either. Only way to speed up the draw process and reduce point creep is increase tags. Increasing tags is not always the best practice for the herds. So...we deal with point creep. 

2- Entitlement is a popular buzz word in our conservative culture. People use it because they hear political talking heads use it and it scares them, so they think it will scare others to seeing things their way as well. It's stupid. Sorry, no offense intended, but it's plain stupid! I have literally never heard a person complain a single time about waiting 20 years so they think they are entitled to any animal they want and nobody else should get to hunt "their" area. I've been around a while, done my fair share of hunting, and have personally known a lot of people draw premium tags. I have literally never heard any of these straw man arguments actually put forward a single time, only seen people complain about the non-existent problem every once in a while on these forums. 

I'll tell you what I do feel entitled to, though---When I play by the rules in place and apply for a tag I'm guaranteed to get under the rules established, I feel entitled to that tag. Why? Because it's the rules (i.e.- law) in place. I don't think it's too much to expect if I have 20 points and put in for a tag that nobody else with 15 or more applied for that I get that tag. I don't think it's too much to expect for the rules to be followed. And if I did apply under those circumstances, I'd get the tag...because that's how the system is set up. I don't expect any solitude, portion of a mountain, or animal that I'm not willing to work to get. It's hunting. It's not supposed to be guaranteed. Get off this manufactured entitlement kick. Nobody believes any of the crap spewed here. 

3- I would love to add out of state hunting to my arsenal. It isn't as easy as just saying "Go hunt out of state" for most people. Anyone wanting to help a brother out and give me some hints and show me some ropes in other states, I'm game! I have plans to eventually branch out to Idaho and Wyoming. But it's going to take some time to realistically make it happen.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Critter said:


> No worse that other states with cow hunts going on in units it takes 20 years to draw in or cow hunts going on when others are hunting spikes. Or muzzle loader hunts going on at the same time that archery seasons are happening. Then there are states like Colorado where you have deer hunters out at the same time that elk hunters are out.
> 
> It's hunting


I agree. I prefer to have more hunters in "my" elk country. That keeps the elk moving and makes for less places for the elk can hide.

.


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Vanilla, How will adding half a dozen new hunts that will take far fewer years to draw than the september rifle hunt not help low point holders? I don't see the logic. I guarantee someone with few points will have far better draw odds if they select the October hunt over the September hunt and if they are unlucky in the random draw and have to wait to draw in bonus round they will get a permit in far fewer years than if they held out for the September hunt.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

huntinfanatic said:


> Vanilla, How will adding half a dozen new hunts that will take far fewer years to draw than the september rifle hunt not help low point holders? I don't see the logic. I guarantee someone with few points will have far better draw odds if they select the October hunt over the September hunt and if they are unlucky in the random draw and have to wait to draw in bonus round they will get a permit in far fewer years than if they held out for the September hunt.


I said it will not help point creep. I did not say that the odds would remain the same as the early rifle. Yes, you are correct in that it will take less time to draw that tag than the early rifle. But it's not like the bonus pool on these hunts is going to be 5 points. Of course, there is no way for me to know until it happens, but I suspect that these hunts will take more points to draw than the late hunts on each respective unit. Therefore, if you have 5 points or less (I.E.- low point holders) you are still 10+ years from drawing. And that bonus number will increase at the same pace still as the other tags.

Reality is that until you're in the bonus pool for any LE hunt, if you draw you were just as lucky as the next guy, whether it be for the Manti muzzy or the San Juan early rifle. "Odds" are terrible regardless, and will remain that way on these hunts.

The last thing I'll say is I'm interested to hear why they chose these 5 units? One is the Box Elder Grouse Creek. Didn't they propose ending this LE hunt in this same packet anyway? Look at the demand for the other units as well.

Again, I feel like this recommendation is just a bait and switch to get people talking about something else and distract from the real issue at hand. I don't know what that is.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> A few thoughts:
> 
> 2- Entitlement is a popular buzz word in our conservative culture. People use it because they hear political talking heads use it and it scares them, so they think it will scare others to seeing things their way as well. It's stupid. Sorry, no offense intended, but it's plain stupid! I have literally never heard a person complain a single time about waiting 20 years so they think they are entitled to any animal they want and nobody else should get to hunt "their" area. I've been around a while, done my fair share of hunting, and have personally known a lot of people draw premium tags. I have literally never heard any of these straw man arguments actually put forward a single time, only seen people complain about the non-existent problem every once in a while on these forums.
> 
> I.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This ! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

Vanilla, Thanks for clarifying your position. I'm all for differences in opinion, I like to at least try to understand where others are coming from. We'll just have to agree to disagree as I don't feel this is a "bait and switch" or conspiracy move by the dwr.

As for your comments about entitlement and to answer your question about why these units where chosen. The five units that were chosen were units that have had LOTS of September rifle hunters complaining about overcrowding during "their" hunt! This was the solution to spread them out. I think the word entitled is quite fitting and is exactly why this October hunt was even created.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Elkaholic2 said:


> Goofy,
> 
> Generate a plan with hunting seasons applied! I want to see what you come with?


The RAC's beat me to it!

They have recommended adding LE elk season on both the Wasatch and
The Manti during the spike only season, Early October..........


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