# Do Away with Hunter Ed Requirement?



## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm one of those old guys who's always been exempt from the requirement and I've never had a weapons accident of any kind. But it's been a requirement here in Utah for decades and I'd hazard a guess that most of you reading this took the course.

Over the last few years, it seems the attitude towards Hunter Education requirements have changed. The Trial Hunting Program eliminates any benefit the program may have just when it is most likely to be needed (during the first hunting experience). The partial online option waters down the traditional course and Bowhunter Ed now has a fully online option. And now the marksmanship requirement is being removed from the program.

I think this shift is a big mistake, but like I said, I'm one of those old guys. If that's the direction we're heading, why not just jump to the conclusion? Should the Hunter Education requirement be scrapped?


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Interesting topic Finn. 

I can see arguments for and against. 

The only reason I can say that I like the idea of keeping it around is to help new hunters that haven't had a mentor teach them some common sense points that we may take for granted in the field. 

But when I was a wee lad, my instructor just yammered on about old hunting stories and then brought a ton of guns as show and tell. So long as there are better instructors now, I'd say keep it.


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## Hoopermat (Dec 17, 2010)

I like the trial program. 
Since the new hunter is required to be with another licensed hunter I believe it is better then the class room. 
The class room has really been a easy course anyway at least now new hunter can get a hands on experience. 
Besides the type of hunter turned out by either would depend on that persons ethics more than any class.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

While common sense isn't so common these days, I see a bigger need for the hunter safety program today than in years past. I believe the program has achieved what it set out to do, and most likely has saved lives since it was implemented in 1966. It's not the kids I worry about causing the accidents, they have to be supervised and mentored by an adult. It's the adults I would worry about that have no training or hunting skills. A kid can be taught from a young age to be safe, but you take an adult that has never been around guns or hunting, and one day they get a wild hair up their a$$ and decide to try it, things could go bad in a hurry.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I think the trial programs great. I think after 18 hunters Ed should just be an online course, but still be as it is today under 18. There comes a point where you can't teach people things as well, or they don't care to learn. Maybe where what's in hunters Ed is so basic to me makes me bias on the issue, but I feel after 18 someone would learn as much on an online course as in a classroom where everyone passes anyway.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

I like hunter ed. in any form as apposed to nothing. 
The trouble I see is in the nature of youth. Young people are not necessarily careless, they're just young, flighty and quick to move. There is no question that hunter ed. is a good thing. Unfortunately, youthfulness, inexperience, and moments of un-attentiveness by the youth and especially the adult guardian result in serious accidents.

I call for more and better training of those adults that are in a supervisory position of young shooter/hunters. Specialized training geared toward the guardianship of youthful gunhandlers. Training that teaches and reminds parents/guardians "how to and what to watch for" when hunting/shooting with a youth.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

I like hunters ed. Takes commitment to go to class and learn, they make sure you pass the common sense quiz and most importantly, the shooting test!

I don't see any downside in it. I have to take an online shed course and extended archery course every year. Do I need it? 

I view the mentor program like a learners permit. By the time they get to the course it should be easy for them. Don't want to just throw hunters out in the field. I have hunted my whole life and so have many on this forum, yet we always come across reg/land/tag questions as well as ethics questions. I say keep hunters 101 class to make sure everyone at least has a base understanding.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Perhaps along with the existing hunters ed course they should also requires a hunters mentor course for those that want to take a novice into the field to hunt. I also think that they need to reign in some of the parents who show up at the class with their kids. The parents take more of the test than the kids do just so that Jr can get their certificate.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Kids today cant even drive across town without running into someone because they are distracted driving.

Look, the Hunters Ed program is easy... if people aren't willing to do it, I'm sorry they shouldn't be allowed to hunt. Its obviously not a priority to them. I looked forward to it as a youth back in the day, it was a "rite of passage". My boy felt the same way, I'm certain he is more proud of his Hunters Ed card than his Eagle Scout card.

That's all IMO of course, then again I'm a self admitted harda$$ about safety stuff.

-DallanC


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Bax* said:


> Interesting topic Finn.
> 
> But when I was a wee lad, my instructor just yammered on about old hunting stories and then brought a ton of guns as show and tell. So long as there are better instructors now, I'd say keep it.


My wife and kids took the course in Tooele. The classes were 3 hours long and full of information. Gene Eckenstam was the instructor, he has taught the course out here for years, I'm sure most of Tooele County has taken the course from him. I sat in on a couple of the classes with the kids, and I can tell you there were things I learned. He not only goes over all the safety and gun handling principles, but gets into backcountry safety and survival as well.

I took the course in 1981 at 11 years of age. They weren't going to let me in because technically you needed to be 12 to hunt small game. Anyway I got in and it worked out. Oh, we shot .22's in the basement of Kearns High School for the shooting test. 2 years later I took the course again with the scouts to earn a merit badge.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I took it when I was a kid and then I took it again with my son when it was his turn. I believe in the in-person rather than the online versions. I don't know that the kids gather any real and valuable knowledge in either case but it has to be better than nothing at all. I wish the course offered more hands on practice in smaller class sizes. 

Some examples of hands on training would be learning how to properly load and unload a rifle in the field (closing a bolt without chambering a round, muzzle control, etc.), how to secure your weapon when crossing streams or climbing fences, transporting a firearm in a vehicle lawfully and safely...the list could go on and on.

I think there is a place for Hunter's Ed but I also feel it could be so much more than it currently is.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I took one of the first classes offered before it was required and have since gone through at least six with family and friends. Working now with 2 granddaughters to get them ready to take it.
IMHO it is the hands on that is important as anything and the course just makes for a formal guideline for teaching what everyone who handles weapons should know and follow.
Back when there were 220,000 hunters out on the opening day of deer season it probally made more sense than now with the reduced numbers but hey lets have a discussion about hunter orange along with it.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

I did not take a UT hs course, mine was out of state (NM). 16 hrs total, M-F. Classroom instruction, written test, and a hands on practical of handling a firearm. That was 32 yrs ago. Still remember the instructor, Hank from New York. Sat through with my daughter a few years ago, 16 hrs as well but over a weekend. Same outline as I did 32 years ago. Retook the test(s) to become a hs instructor myself.

Hunters Safety ain't a bad thing.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

More and more kids are growing up without the guidence of parents on gun safety. I think hunter safety is a must, especially these days.


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Dunkem said:


> More and more kids are growing up without the guidence of parents on gun safety. I think hunter safety is a must, especially these days.


I agree with this statement. With my work background, all of my boys have been taught the 4 basic safe handling rules relating to firearms. I try and make them go over them with me every time we go shooting. They remember most of them pretty well. I let my kids come hunting with beginning at 8 years old, and they learn more every year before they start hunting. I will have two sons hunting this year, and another two with us. The hunters ed course was a great opportunity to spend some time with my boys. I don't agree with taking the marksmanship out of the course, but this should hopefully be taught to the hunters before this point anyways. There's some good information that I believe they aren't taught or would learn such as ethics with the non-hunters out there that they may not be taught otherwise. I guess it just depends on who the mentors are!


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## Concerned (Aug 9, 2016)

They've watered down the class to the point that is all but worthless. 
Since they aren't required handle an actual firearm or shoot for a very minimal score, and since it's a 2-6 hour total course now. Why bother?
Hunter Ed is quite often the only training any of these folks ever get in wildlife management, outdoor ethics or gun safety. It needs to be enhanced, not watered down.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm a big fan of Hunter Safety. 

There are places in WY where you have to have a hunter safety certificate no matter how old you are in order to hunt.

I've taken a hunter safety course in Illinois and twice in Wyoming with the kids. Also took a hunter safety course similar to the ones I took in America in Manitoba Canada. 

With the exception of the hunter safety course I took in Canada, the instructors followed the curriculum and the thing had much value especially for the youngsters.

My grandsons are attending Hunter Safety this week in Evanston. It's every night for 5 days. There's a written test and then an actual hands-on test using a firearm at the Rec Center gun range on the last night.

.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Keep it and maybe reinforce/expand it. I grew up in a house with guns but no one who hunted anymore. I awkwardly took the Hunters Ed in my late 20s with a bunch of kids. Still learned alot. Found it worthwhile and helpful. Definitely recommend against going online as hands on mentoring was key.


I have been to the local range too many times when parents bring kids with no respect for other people or gun safety: barrel pointed randomly around,including lazily at people on other lanes; acting all tactical with assault style weapons without respect to basic range behavior (communication, situational awareness), etc. It's disappointing and unsafe enough that I only go midweek and often leave when others show up. 

I don't think we will ever outlive the usefulness of gun courses. They seem to be the bare minimum.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

I am pretty sure my instructor was Lee Robertson. Even as safty conscious as I already had been taught by my pa, I learned a ton.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

According to the Utah hunting regs, I too am exempt due to age from the hunter safety requirement.

In California where I took my hunter safety course, it was an all day class and it covered a lot of ground. The most valuable part was the list of causes of fatal accidents and how to avoid them. The most useful part was how to gut a buck or a boar.

I still have my old hunter training certificate card which I will no longer need.

I found the training to be valuable.

As for the dumbing down of training, I suppose anything is better than nothing, but a full day class is better than anything else.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

You almost need it to be a requirement every year as many times as I've had tard rifle hunter look at me through their rifle scope. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You are never going to get the tard rifle hunters to quit looking through their scopes at other hunters. I think that it is inbred in them to do it.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

I'm a big fan of the hunter's safety program, but I also think that the trial hunter program seems to remove the requirement during the time it is most likely to help. I think hunter recruitment will be better with the trial hunting program, though. 

I have mixed feeling about the marksmanship part of the course. I think its main value is that it makes each student go out and at least prove they know how to safely handle a gun in a controlled environment. It's kind of a sore spot with me, though, because I didn't meet the marksmanship requirement the first time I took it. I was 11 years old, and my dad was convinced I'd be fine with minimal practice (I was a big shotgun/bird hunting enthusiast, but had very little experience with rifles). I ended up two hits shy of a passing score. I scored 100% on the written exam, was a safety-conscious gun handler, and could hit 20/25 in a round of trap, but I had to retake the entire course because I didn't turn in a great performance with a .22. Kind of crazy, if you ask me.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

I don't think it should done away with, if anything, it should be a requirement to take the course over every five years or so. It's crazy to see what goes on out in the hills and marshes, but, I guess you can't fix stupid.


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## hossblur (Jun 15, 2011)

I remember my teacher was demonstrating proper gun handling and asked a kid to come help him. He had slipped a blank in the gun. Handed the kid the gun, had him shoulder it and told him to show proper trigger pull. That kid nearly shizzed himself, one hell of a lesson that I remember 30yrs later. My son took it 2 years ago at 8. I think we waste a lot of time on first aid. Kids in the 8-12 range aren't going to remember that stuff. Same as the map and orienteering. But, if your doing it right your going to class, or your sitting down at the computer and its letting you reinforce whats being taught. Much like a CCW class, its not training and shouldn't pass for actual adult/kid time.


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

I like the idea of having to work for things.


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## pdogger (Nov 12, 2008)

Some thoughts and information that may help with some who have concerns.

As for the trial hunting program. Utah was the 35th state to implement a trial hunting or similar program. Statistics from these the other programs show that these "trial" hunters are actually safer then regular hunters. It has been a great program for bringing participants into the sport.

Changes to the Hunter Education Program have been happening since the program was started way back when. In a lot of ways we have come full circle and in other ways we have moved forward, and some back ward. Only 19 of the 50 states require a live fire exercise in Hunter Education and Utah was the only state still requiring a marksmanship test. The incident rates in all states over the past 10 years are nearly identical for states that have live fire vs those that don't. (states that have live fire in Hunter Ed actually have slightly higher rate) If you look at the incident reports in Utah and other states none of the incidents are related to marksmanship. They have to do with judgment and safety issues.

In my opinion the Hunter Education program is very important and effective, but it is only a small portion of the overall experience in becoming a safe, knowledgeable, and responsible hunter. Most of that for me came after I actually took Hunter Education.


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## bow_dude (Aug 20, 2009)

I was 15 when I took Hunters Ed. That was back in the fall of 68 or 69. Hunters Ed saves lives. I remember growing up reading news paper accounts or hearing news broadcasts about people who were shot and killed due to a hunting accident nearly every year. Sometimes there were multiple shootings in a single year. I had a friend who was one of those victims. He was killed while eating lunch on a side hill in the open. That was back in 74. Another friend's father was the shooter in another hunting accident. His father never let him hunt because of it. Obviously he never got over the guilt. 

We don't kill hunters very often anymore and that is because of hunters ed. You can't argue with success, and because we have a much better safety record than we used to, we have advocates wanting to get rid of it? Doesn't make any sense to me. The same argument holds true with wearing hunter orange. We don't kill hunters like we used to because of the safety precautions that are required. "When they are learned, they think they are wise". Wisdom is acquired through experience. Foolishness comes from ignoring experience and the wise.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

I prefer to have a marksmanship test. Not because I think having one will reduce incidents, but because I like the emphasis it puts on making clean shots on animals. Regardless of if it's required by Hunter Ed, my kids will be having a marksmanship test so they know we put our money where our mouth is. 

The other reason I like it for the class, is that was the highlight of my Hunter Ed experience. You gotta do the "boring" class/online stuff, the least they can do is let you go shoot a couple of targets and have some fun.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Could the reason behind fewer accidents also be that there are a lot fewer hunters out there and the ones that are out there are actually hunting?

I remember back in the 60's and 70's that if you didn't have a camping spot 2 days before the deer season opened you had a hard time finding one. The endless line of cars snaking up Spanish Fork Canyon and Daniels Canyon the Friday before the hunt opened and the endless line of cars and truck going down them the following Sunday evening. The checking stations in Daniels with 4 lanes just to check successful hunters. And then them building the one in Spanish Fork Canyon to do the same. 

Not to mention 300,000 hunters vs <100,000 now.


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## pdogger (Nov 12, 2008)

willfish4food said:


> The other reason I like it for the class, is that was the highlight of my Hunter Ed experience. You gotta do the "boring" class/online stuff, the least they can do is let you go shoot a couple of targets and have some fun.


They will still be doing a live fire exercise, shooting and being safe it just won't have the scoring component


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

I actually was quite impressed with the online course my kids took (huntercourse.com). The animations, and explanations/interactions were very well done in my opinion. It even had a archery range simulator where they had to use a specific pin on the site to hit the target. They enjoyed it, and I made them go through all the modules 3 times, so when it came time to take the test, they passed without problems (at 10 years old). It was also nice they could go at their own pace, to make sure they learned the material.

They are still learning from me, and will continue to learn, but I'm all for keeping the program. It helped put a good foundation for safety to start. Mainly just wanted to chime in and say I liked the online course.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

call it what you will but the way things are going in terms of hunter density, we should have a "close quarters combat with long range weapons class" just prior to rifle opener. 

i don't know what they teach here in hunters safety but i'd love to see more hunting ethics taught. competing for a limited resource certainly allows people to think differently than usually would.


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## Doug444UT (Jan 11, 2008)

I've been teaching Hunter Ed. in Utah since 1994, and I'm finding the feedback on this thread interesting. I have mixed feelings on the new shortened traditional class. I've just gotten through teaching 2 of these over the past 2 weekends. My classes were small, so it made this transition easier for me, in that I could focus on the condensed course material and not have to worry as much about classroom discipline, etc. We've really only dropped the handgun, archery and muzzleloader sections, and reduced the the time alloted for survival. But the "new" course outline has recommended hands-on sections for firearms handling safety, obstacle crossing, field carries and zones of fire. I always stress the ethics side of Hunter Ed., and I also stress that I can fail a student for "attitude" - which I actually can do. :shock: With the small classes I had, it went well. The live-fire exercise is the same as before (30 shots, 3 positions), just no minimum score requirement. Again, with the small class I could really watch all of my students for any safety violations. 

As for the mentored hunter program, I'll wait to see what statistics the DWR produces for this before I pass judgment, but I do like that it requires a licensed hunter to accompany. We do get the accident stats to share with our classes each year and many years the shooter is an older hunter with no Hunter Ed. (didn't need it due to age). Not always, but often enough to, at least for me, reinforce my belief that Hunter Ed. is a good thing.


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## novat0 (Mar 18, 2015)

As an adult who got into hunting last year with no hunting mentor I think the course was very valuable. As someone with a full time job and family, I never would have been able to do the course to hunt without the online option.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

swbuckmaster said:


> You almost need it to be a requirement every year as many times as I've had tard rifle hunter look at me through their rifle scope.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


In most states that would be a felony if loaded or a misdemeanor if unloaded -- either way a crime.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Doug444UT said:


> I've been teaching Hunter Ed. in Utah since 1994, and I'm finding the feedback on this thread interesting. I have mixed feelings on the new shortened traditional class. I've just gotten through teaching 2 of these over the past 2 weekends. My classes were small, so it made this transition easier for me, in that I could focus on the condensed course material and not have to worry as much about classroom discipline, etc. We've really only dropped the handgun, archery and muzzleloader sections, and reduced the the time alloted for survival. But the "new" course outline has recommended hands-on sections for firearms handling safety, obstacle crossing, field carries and zones of fire. I always stress the ethics side of Hunter Ed., and I also stress that I can fail a student for "attitude" - which I actually can do. :shock: With the small classes I had, it went well. The live-fire exercise is the same as before (30 shots, 3 positions), just no minimum score requirement. Again, with the small class I could really watch all of my students for any safety violations.
> 
> As for the mentored hunter program, I'll wait to see what statistics the DWR produces for this before I pass judgment, but I do like that it requires a licensed hunter to accompany. We do get the accident stats to share with our classes each year and many years the shooter is an older hunter with no Hunter Ed. (didn't need it due to age). Not always, but often enough to, at least for me, reinforce my belief that Hunter Ed. is a good thing.


I would be willing to buy you as much beer, wine, or liquor that you can drink at Iggy's for some tips on where to hunt buck deer around here (Sandy/Draper).


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## ssssnake529 (Sep 11, 2016)

I never took Hunter's Ed. (too old.)

I wish there was a free online resource that covered the Hunters Ed topics. I'd be interested in seeing what I missed.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

ssssnake529 said:


> I never took Hunter's Ed. (too old.)
> 
> I wish there was a free online resource that covered the Hunters Ed topics. I'd be interested in seeing what I missed.


It was a great class for me.

We had all ages, mostly youth, but also young adult and middle age.

The instructor talked about hunter safety first, and all the different ways about 50 hunters get killed each year in the state during hunting season. Then he gave us ways to avoid each situation. Some of them were quite excessive, like unloading your gun before you cross any obstacle.

Made me decide to go even more radical and keep the gun unloaded until I see a buck with my own eyes. Then if in pursuit I need to cross an obstacle I will clear the chamber and push the cartridge into the empty magazine well.

Having a loaded gun in a vehicle is high on the list of dangerous practices too.

Swinging on game and crossing members of your own party.

Falls with a loaded gun.

Fatal accidents was the first thing he covered so it is the thing I remember the most.

As was mentioned earlier, he explained how illegal it is to point your scoped rifle at another hunter using the scope like bino's. You need to have your own bino's with you at all times, and a map, and a compass. This is still true because the newfangled electronics can break and/or their batteries can run out too. Then without a GPS you are SOL.

He went over several different ways to gut bucks and does. It all depends if you want to mount the buck or not. I don't suppose you would ever mount a doe. He also went into quartering carcasses for backpack hunts.

He told us about several good and bad hunting spots too. I have since always believed that hunting safety instructors are gods knowing everything.


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## Doug444UT (Jan 11, 2008)

Karl, that's a very generous offer. Sorry I haven't responded sooner, I've has major access issues to the site (not completely resolved yet). One might assume that as a Hunter Ed Instructor I'd have lots of contacts and access to "good spot" info, but sadly that is not the case with me. While I've lived here over 26 years, I've only hunted deer a handful of times, and not with much success. I made a friend who hunted elk primarily and that was great (also not real successful), but he's retired and moved to St. George, so I'm on my own again. I've also spent most of the past 26 years as a Scout Leader (21 years as Scoutmaster) and that tends to cut into hunting time. I'm just now pulling back a bit from Scouting (no longer SM) and hope to do some more exploring looking for possible deer opportunities, but I really don't have much information at this point.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

Doug444UT said:


> Karl, that's a very generous offer. Sorry I haven't responded sooner, I've has major access issues to the site (not completely resolved yet). One might assume that as a Hunter Ed Instructor I'd have lots of contacts and access to "good spot" info, but sadly that is not the case with me. While I've lived here over 26 years, I've only hunted deer a handful of times, and not with much success. I made a friend who hunted elk primarily and that was great (also not real successful), but he's retired and moved to St. George, so I'm on my own again. I've also spent most of the past 26 years as a Scout Leader (21 years as Scoutmaster) and that tends to cut into hunting time. I'm just now pulling back a bit from Scouting (no longer SM) and hope to do some more exploring looking for possible deer opportunities, but I really don't have much information at this point.


Doug I have since figured out that it is easier and more certain to get a tag and hunt in Idaho than Utah. Followed a lot of threads here and pizzed off a lot of local's in the process. But it has been a productive process.

I will hunt someplace in southeast Idaho next year if I can get off work.


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## Chuckmclean (Nov 10, 2016)

I see a lot of people at the gun counter every time I go to Cabelas, that look like they know next to nothing about guns. While it sucks to have to take hunter safety if already know what's up. I would still rather have those people who know anything at least getting some education instead of none. No one in my family likes guns, they are all liberal hippies, so I am self-taught. Most of hunter safety was common sense, I learned one or two things from it.


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## Karl (Aug 14, 2016)

I can foresee someday when gun safety classes are mandatory as well -- not to buy a gun -- but definitely to forego a huge fine like $1000 for not attending the gun safety class within 1 month of the gun purchase.

People need to learn gun handling rules, shooting rules, and range rules.

It is a good idea to have a first aid kit anytime you go shooting or hunting too.

It would be great even if all people who had guns could hit a target with them. But that is probably asking too much.


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