# Insane things you have heard tree huggers say.



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

We have all heard tree huggers say some very asinine things before I am sure. Here are a few gems I have heard recently:

This was in response to a newspaper article detailing the coyote bounty that was going to be implemented in Utah. In the comments section of the article a poster was going off about the stupid ******** wanting to kill all the coyotes and not understanding the repercussions of it all. He basically said that we were going to cause the coyote population to plummet which in turn would cause a huge increase in the small rodent population! The small rodents would wreak havoc on all the farmers field digging holes and such which would cause a huge financial crisis in rural Utah areas! Because I guess all the foxes, badgers, snakes, hawks and other predatory animals that prey on small rodents would die too? Also coyotes are very easy to find and kill so this new bounty would guarantee the entire species demise.

Another awesome one I believe I read in a comments section on a youtube video of a cougar hunt was from a person who informed us that the hunters chasing the cougars all throughout the mountains in their natural habitat would be driving them down into town where they will be picking off peoples pets and small children. Because apparently when wild animals feel threatened by humans they tend to run to the places where the most humans exist right?

In response to a dead wolf picture on facebook a brilliant young girl shared some wisdom with us about wolves. She told us how wolves are much more effective at controlling populations than human hunters because hunters can only kill one elk a year while wolves can kill multiple elk. I guess the state's wildlife agencies do not have the power to issue more elk tag to resident and non-resident hunters to curtail a burgeoning elk population. There are just far too many game animals out there for us inept hunters to keep up with and we need some benevolent killers like the wolves to do the heavy lifting. On the flip side if the elk populations are falling below objective I guess we can just post fliers on all the trees throughout the wolves habitat and let them know that the elk aren't doing so well and they will have to slow down on the killing right?

Well, those are just a few things that I have learned from granola crunchers recently. What have you guys heard?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Not to be overly disagreeable here, but taking out all the coyotes will have an inverse impact on their prey base. Growing up in Idaho in the 80s, coyote hides were worth $100-150 each. So of course many farmers and ranchers spent the winter taking out as many coyotes as possible to supplement the farm income, reducing populations to next to nothing. Coupled with the usual 7 year cycle rabbits tend to follow, the place EXPLODED with jacks. We are talking everywhere, in numbers of biblical proportions. And yes, they were destroying crops. Under cutting haystacks that tumbled to the ground. It really was a huge deal. So in response, rabbit drives were held. Huge "fan" fences were put up, funneling into a new pit, dug with someone's back hoe. Then everyone in town would show up on a Saturday for a rabbit drive. Tens of thousands were driven into the fence, and then the pit, where they were clubbed and then buried. So while you might dismiss the impacts coyote removal will have on their prey bases, it actually is very real.

Here is a picture from the rabbit drives near Mud Lake Idaho in the winter of '81-82.
[attachment=0:1fp8shmz]Rabbit drive - Idaho.jpg[/attachment:1fp8shmz]


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I really miss those rabbit drives. Those were the good old days.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Much like mule deer, I doubt we will ever see rabbit population peaks like those of the past. I dont know that I believe in the 11 year cycle thing. Places I used to hunt growing up in the early 80's have never had rabbits rebound since then. 30 years now I've waited for something to rebound but so far nada. Maybe its a 33 year cycle and next year is the year...


-DallanC


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Wow, I learned something new today. Thanks for sharing about those rabbit drives gary. That's really interesting stuff.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

How about "mule deer predation in Utah is compensatory." Meaning if the predator did not kill the deer it would just have died from some other reason in a short amount of time. Most likely starvation.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

Man! I have read a ton of crazy stuff that Tree threw up on this board...... :mrgreen:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Sorry. Just thinking out loud. :mrgreen:


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

And fortunately when all the coyotes and bobcats are gone, and the rodent population explodes, it wont have any negative effects on how winter ranges seed themselves. Wont be a problem at all when rodents eat all the grass and shrub seed for years on end. Cant possibly have a negative effect on mule deer, kill em all.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

How about we change the title of this thread to: "Insane things you have heard Ironbear say"?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> And fortunately when all the coyotes and bobcats are gone, and the rodent population explodes, it wont have any negative effects on how winter ranges seed themselves. Wont be a problem at all when rodents eat all the grass and shrub seed for years on end. Cant possibly have a negative effect on mule deer, kill em all.


Read this:
http://www.sacbee.com/2012/04/30/445221 ... force.html

A couple quotes:
"A few years back, Nevada rancher Marti Hoots noticed that jack rabbits were out of control. Then, while rounding up cattle on horseback, she spotted a Wildlife Services plane over her pasture. A man leaned out and began shooting coyotes.

"I was irate," said Hoots. "It was the dead of winter, and I found no reason for them to be shooting because the coyotes weren't bothering anything.

"The jack rabbits were everywhere," Hoots said. "So the coyotes were doing some good, and they were shooting them."

And:
"In biological shorthand: Kill too many coyotes and you open a Pandora's box of disease-carrying rodents, meadow-munching rabbits, bird-eating feral cats, and, over time, smarter, more abundant coyotes. You also can sentence the deer you are trying to help to slow death by starvation."

And:
"Has the killing been worth it? That is what scientists have asked as they've flown over the Granites, comparing the size and growth of deer herds where predators were killed with places where they were not.

The scientists have packaged their data and findings into reports and presentations filled with biological jargon and complex statistical analysis. But in plain English, it hasn't worked.

"There was no discernible difference," said Tony Wasley, a mule-deer biologist with the Nevada Department of Wildlife. "There were several different (population) variables we tested, and none were significantly different than adjacent areas with no predator control."

Two other factors generally have bigger impacts: harsh weather and poor forage conditions. When there is not enough to eat, saving a deer from predation may only delay death by starvation later.

"The simplicity of predator control has broad appeal," Wasley said. "The complexity of the problem is far greater."

But, heck...just kill the all the predators especially those that eat deer! All of these are just isolated incidents that are based on flawed science, bad data, and tree huggers!


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

I dated a girl that was an anit-hunter. After her scion XB hit a jackrabbit and caused her $2500 in damage she bought me one of those 100 round bricks of 7 shot 12 gauge rounds. I think her last words before I headed out to warm my mossberg barrel was.. "Kill them all"


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Nambaster said:


> I dated a girl that was an anit-hunter. After her scion XB hit a jackrabbit and caused her $2500 in damage she bought me one of those 100 round bricks of 7 shot 12 gauge rounds. I think her last words before I headed out to warm my mossberg barrel was.. "Kill them all"


I am glad the chic got converted. But honestly, if she would have been driving a gas guzzling, 6000 lbs, air polluting full size SUV or Truck there would have been no damage. Just saying! o-||


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

LT, WY2, Let me get you guys strait. Coyote predation on rodents is defiantly additive and to take out or reduce rodent predation will definitely result in a population explosion or increase leading to a long list of unintended consequence's? 

And this single farmers unscientific experience is completely valid enough to conclude that predator control was the reason for an increase in prey base?

o-||


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

I would wager that the rabbit booms of the 70s, and yes I experienced them, was due to DDT. The population of hawks, owl, eagles, and falcons was at an all time low. The rabbits have never had anywhere near the population explosions since DDT was banned, and eagles, hawks, and owls have returned to near normal numbers.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

One time Polarbear and I were bow hunting near soap stone. We ran into a tree huger lady. Asked her if she had seen any elk. She responded "If I had I wouldn't tell you anyways". Seems about right.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Iron Bear said:


> LT, WY2, Let me get you guys strait. Coyote predation on rodents is defiantly additive and to take out or reduce rodent predation will definitely result in a population explosion or increase leading to a long list of unintended consequence's?
> 
> And this single farmers unscientific experience is completely valid enough to conclude that predator control was the reason for an increase in prey base?
> 
> o-||


Yes rodent and even insect and fish populations can drive big game trends, ussualy because of weather, but also because of the over removal of predators. Or in the case of fish, the removal or replacement of native species. Its called science.

The rancher should not worry. After the gopher chokers leave, and the rabbit population is booming, coyotes will boom bigger than before. It will be great, short term gains, at the expense of long term stability, problem solved :roll:


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I had no idea so many UWN'ers were against the coyote bounty...interesting.

I have a few family members who I wouldn't necessarily call tree huggers or bunny humpers, but they are definitely of the politically liberal mindset. On Thanksgiving, my brother brought over his new shotgun to show it off to the family (most everyone had contributed money towards his gift). When he pulled his black Benelli SuperNova out of its case, my grandma got all nervous and said "is that your assault rifle???" My brother and I chuckled, and quickly corrected her, letting her know it was just a regular shotgun for hunting. "Then why is it all black and scary?" she inquired. I told her it was designed to be dragged through the muddy marsh, and to get wet, and that fancy wood stocks and blued barrels would quickly warp, weather, and rust in those conditions. My grandma is not against hunting. In fact she quite enjoys eating wild game. She grew up on it, had a husband who hunted often, and so was pretty familiar with hunting firearms.

Her reaction got me to thinking about the ignorance she displayed, which I then compared to the typical leftist anti-gun BS we hear so often. How many of these people fight against gun rights out of ignorance? I would imagine many of them couldn't tell one gun from another, but because of what they hear about in the news and from their favorite politicians, they discriminate ignorantly.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Chaser

Interesting stretch, from a comment about folks being against the coyote bounty, into stories about "leftist anti-gun BS". I have actively hunted coyotes for over 20 years, and I've been building firearms for almost as long. I am pro gun, and pro science. Many of us that do not agree with the bounty, dont disagree because we are against shooting coyotes. I am not for it because it is bad biology, bad policy, a waste of money, the way it was legislated, and the fact that it will not bring back the deer heards like some people think. 

In my little corner of the world, coyotes got really smart this summer and fall, because of all the wing nuts that were going to collect their $50 bounties. So now the snow has flown, and the dogs are harder to get than ever. The few that were shot, may only have had the effect of causing the remaining population to breed more. And because they got smart to calls, more of them will make it through to spring. Depending on the weather, this may actually have more of a detrimental effect on mule deer fawns, than if none were shot. 

I wonder how many people are for bad, biologically unsound science, like the coyote bounty, Option WTF
?, etc. out of ignorance?


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm still confused.

What is a "treehugger"?

I once hugged a tree, but I was very drunk at the time.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Lonetree-Please don't think I was knocking you, or anyone else regarding the coyote bounty. I just didn't realize there were people on this forum that are so against it. That's not to say that I think you're anti gun or anti hunting. I can appreciate your position. I may not agree with it, but I do understand it. My anecdote about my family was in response to the OP asking about stupid/silly things some people say.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Finnegan said:


> I once hugged a tree, but I was very drunk at the time.


Uh-oh&#8230;I hope that don't count...


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I think most of lonetrees responses fall under this heading.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

I read all sorts of crazy comments on youtube videos that hunters post of their hunts. I wonder why the tree huggers and animal rights fools spend time watching hunting videos if they are so against killing animals.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> I think most of lonetrees responses fall under this heading.


 8)


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## riptheirlips (Jun 30, 2008)

I raise a few beef and once a lady seen us butchering beef in the field she asked " Why can't you just buy your beef in the grocery store like everyone else."

I remember those rabbit days in Idaho, I always thought why didn't Idaho just hire the Utah DWR to manage the rabbits, that would have solved the problem. It did our deer herd.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Lonetree

You cant possibly believe the crap you say can you? If you do you will never be the alpha male in the food chain!

The more predators you shoot or poison the more game animals you can harvest. Its simple math. One dead coyote = more fawns to reproduce. 

Go ahead and tell me 1080 made the coyote population breed faster and increase in numbers and this caused the deer numbers to drastically fall.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2010)

“The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant, "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering.” 
? Aldo Leopold


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Daisy said:


> "The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant, "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering."
> ? Aldo Leopold


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Daisy said:
> 
> 
> > "The last word in ignorance is the man who says of an animal or plant, "What good is it?" If the land mechanism as a whole is good, then every part is good, whether we understand it or not. If the biota, in the course of aeons, has built something we like but do not understand, then who but a fool would discard seemingly useless parts? To keep every cog and wheel is the first precaution of intelligent tinkering."
> > ? Aldo Leopold


You gotta love Aldo...I like this one:

"I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes-something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view&#8230;
Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the 
height of a saddlehorn. Such a mountain looks as if someone had given God a new pruning shears, and forbidden Him all other exercise. In the end the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers."

It's all about balance...

Aldo Leopold also said: "Harmony with the land is like harmony with a friend. You cannot cherish his right hand and chop off his left. That is to say you cannot have game and hate predators. The land is one organism."


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> Lonetree
> 
> You cant possibly believe the crap you say can you? If you do you will never be the alpha male in the food chain!
> 
> ...


"belief" has nothing to do with it. That is the problem with the "kill them all" attitude, it resides in the realm of belief, rather being rooted, and firmly planted in the reality of science. It is also short sighted, and unsustainable, much like the ideology that promotes it. Does killing predators have a possitive effect on their prey? yes. So killing more predators will have more of a positive effect on their prey? NO!

Indiscriminate poisoning is not wildlife management, nor is it a sustainable practice. Tell me that 1080 did not boom rodent and legamorph populations, negatively impacting big game winter ranges for decades.

Predator prey relationships are not singularly linear, nor are they singularly lateral. simple math is the sole relationship between deer and coyotes, disregarding all other equations. Something like simple addition. This is abstract and only works on paper. In the real world it plays out more like a combination of Trig, geometry, and algebra, not simple math.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

I need to read more Leopold, very good stuff.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Lonetree said:


> Indiscriminate poisoning is not wildlife management, nor is it a sustainable practice. Tell me that 1080 did not boom rodent and legamorph populations, negatively impacting big game winter ranges for decades.


How soon we forget the valuable lessons of the Kaibab...the attempt at eradicating predators did increase the deer herd; no doubt about it. The reduction of predators and the subsequent increase in prey species had some disastrous effects though...and, ultimately, it was estimated that around 60,000 deer died of starvation as a result!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> Lonetree said:
> 
> 
> > Indiscriminate poisoning is not wildlife management, nor is it a sustainable practice. Tell me that 1080 did not boom rodent and legamorph populations, negatively impacting big game winter ranges for decades.
> ...


So let me get this straight, this is a real documented phenomenon? I tried doing a Bing search to find out more, and found out that a biologist named Graeme Caughley debunked that claim about the Kaibab way back in the '70s. Nice try though.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

not disagreeing at all with you....the combination of factors including the removal of predators and the removal of grazers like cattle and sheep led to a forage surplus and ultimately a boom in deer numbers. But, without predator--both human and those the forest service attempted to exterminate--the deer numbers eventually rose to a point where they did substantially harm and destroy their own habitat. And, as a result, the population that was around a hundred thousand saw around 60,000 die of starvation.

The balance of a natural ecosystem was undoubtedly interrupted by the attempt to eradicate predators from the area, elimination of livestock grazing, and the limiting of hunting opportunity to create a mule deer paradise. The lesson here is that habitat is the deciding factor on game populations and the elimination of one small piece of the puzzle can have huge consequences. And, the reality is that it is really hard to create mule deer havens...


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> not disagreeing at all with you....the combination of factors including the removal of predators and the removal of grazers like cattle and sheep led to a forage surplus and ultimately a boom in deer numbers. But, without predator--both human and those the forest service attempted to exterminate--the deer numbers eventually rose to a point where they did substantially harm and destroy their own habitat. And, as a result, the population that was around a hundred thousand saw around 60,000 die of starvation.
> 
> The balance of a natural ecosystem was undoubtedly interrupted by the attempt to eradicate predators from the area, elimination of livestock grazing, and the limiting of hunting opportunity to create a mule deer paradise. The lesson here is that habitat is the deciding factor on game populations and the elimination of one small piece of the puzzle can have huge consequences. And, the reality is that it is really hard to create mule deer havens...


I am well versed on the Kaibab. I need to find the sarcasm font.  I was just heading off the inevitable Graeme Caughley faux science arguement that always gets thrown into the mix by the kill everything crowd, when the Kaibab gets brought up as an example. Caughley was a biologist from New Zealand that had never been to the Kaibab, but "disproved" the effects of predator removal their 50 years later, from 10,000 miles away. I am sure there are people on this board that are familiar with him, and _believe_ him.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Whooo....there for a minute I thought you were on board with Caughley. I was shocked...now I just feel dumb! But, that's not the first time...!


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

wyoming2utah said:


> Whooo....there for a minute I thought you were on board with Caughley. I was shocked...now I just feel dumb! But, that's not the first time...!


 I like my sarcasm very dry.


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## Hunt1Fish2 (Dec 19, 2007)

Getting back to the subject of “Insane thing you have heard…”

I had a late season cow elk tag a few years ago what included an area that had a popular hiking trail in the bottom of the canyon. I shot the elk before the sun hit the mountain tops and got it down to the trail. I then proceeded to quarter it to the point I only had the carcass left and needed a break so I was resting by the trail head.

The first hiker of the morning arrived with her dog and got ready to head up the trail. I did not want her to freak out by coming upon the carcass or have her dog get into. When I approached her, my hands are covered in blood and I am pretty sure my orange vest has blood on it, too. I said, “Excuse me miss, I just want to let know that there is a dead elk up the trail a little ways and I did not what you to be surprised when you come upon it.”

She then said, “Oh my, what did it die of?”


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

That is good, you should have told her Ebola.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Hunt1Fish2 - that is a GREAT story! I love it. "What did it die of?" That is epic.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Great story! The answer should have been "Cardiac Arrest" scared by too many hikers.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

lol, that is funny!

Everything they say is insane!!!


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Cooky said:


> Finnegan said:
> 
> 
> > I once hugged a tree, but I was very drunk at the time.
> ...


That reminded me of this one, forward to 2:08:


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## Kingfisher (Jul 25, 2008)

died of lead poisoning caused by humans in the environment by mining, refining and processing. we were doing some work up big cottonwood canyon in july one year. all the trees had produced young growing and very tender tips on branches and then we had a really bitter cold front come thru - temperatures at that elevation were in single digits and teens such that all this new growth froze and turned grey. we stopped at the cafe for lunch and the waitress was from back east, going to school at the U in some environmental field... we talked a bit and she commented on how sad it was that all the acid rain was devastating the forest. we were stunned and asked - what devastation and what acid rain? after a brief converstation - we were able to let her know there is no acid rain here and what she presumed was forest devastation was due to frost kill. people see and assume. and its not just those who are not particularly educated in a specific field. the wasatch nf released a forest plan here a decade ago that had some funky stuff.... like all the logging and various other activities had turned the provo river into a braided and highly eroded stream. they were ready to restrict all kinds of activities on the watershed in order to prevent this erosion from getting worse. problem was, it was due to one event, the trial lake breach in... 86 i think that scoured the channel and caused the erosion and stream braiding. nothing to do with logging. i have experienced dozens of these kinds of things over my career... you see something and jump to a conclusion on cause and then to a course of action that will solve the so called problem. and you see the problem in the context of your training and experience - if environmental you jump to that cause/solution and if you are a logger/grazer you see an entirely different context.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

I believe the anti coyote slaughter have adequately made their point by now and you all deserve a big pat on the back. Now if we could I'd like to get back to the original intent of this thread. Crazy things tree huggers say.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

A mid-50s couple bought a lot above our farm to build their house. In talking with them over a few months, I can give a couple quotes:

Early summer: "When we drove up and saw a doe with two fawns I knew this is where we should live."

Later that month: "I felt so bad when the track hoe came in and scared the deer. I made the workers stop and until the fawns left."

October: "What is all the shooting?" -It is the deer hunt. "Why are they killing those poor deer? That is BARBARIC"

November- after landscaping and moving in- "The deer rubbed the bark off of our trees! How do we stop them?"

January- A call to the UDWR, as related to me by the homeowner- "Get your deer OUT of our yard!"

Some tree-huggers can have a change of heart.


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

We came off the mountain with a nice buck early one afternoon. Our truck was parked in the neighborhoods below where we were hunting. Just as we were loading the buck into the truck we noticed the elderly couple across the street peering at us through their blinds. Before we knew it they were coming our way. "here we go" we all said under our breath. This was the confrontation I always knew I'd have one day. I was prepared to handle it with the utmost diplomacy and kindness. I wasn't prepared for what they said. "that's not the one that's been getting in our garden! There's a bigger one up there that's been getting in our garden! Why didn't you shoot that one?!". I told them that I would keep after the other buck. They told me if I showed them the dead buck I would receive baked goods.


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Packout said:


> A mid-50s couple bought a lot above our farm to build their house. In talking with them over a few months, I can give a couple quotes:
> 
> Early summer: "When we drove up and saw a doe with two fawns I knew this is where we should live."
> 
> ...


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Idiot - GREAT story!! I love it.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

"we talked a bit and she commented on how sad it was that all the acid rain was devastating the forest. we were stunned and asked - what devastation and what acid rain? after a brief converstation - we were able to let her know there is no acid rain here"

Atmospheric deposition of NO3(acid rain) compounded by CO2 emissions has risen 30% since 1980. This is an undisputable fact. It was previously believed that the forests would off set these increases, it has now been determined that there is almost no sequestering or conversion of these nitrates by the forests. This effects everything that lives under the sky, acid rain is everywhere, and getting worse. It is driven directly by CO2 emmisions, you know, the same thing that causes climate change, global warming, etc. If you had to pick 3 issues that effected mule deer the most, this would be #1. This is the #1 reason that the Whiskey basin bighorn sheep herd in Wyoming's Wind Rivers has been reduced to a fraction of its former self. In 1980 there was something like 80 tags issued on that unit, and Utah used to get almost all of their sheep from that herd. It was the largest Native bighorn sheep population in the lower 48. There are now only 2 tags alloted. The science behind the Wyoming sheep declines is being expanded, and is showing that these same effects of acid rain are controlling the fate of mule deer also. This is everywhere in the west, not just there. You can ignore it, or say that it does not exist, but that wont change reality.

If you look at previous climate conditions, elevated CO2, and atmospheric deposition of NO3 explain much of what we see going on with wildlife today(minus the ion differences in the NO3 being emmitted today, there is no precedent for this) . The problem is that we are in uncharted territory. CO2 emmisions are higher than they have ever been in the entire life history of mule deer. That does not bode well for the future mule deer.

This thread should be changed to "The things uneducated people, that dont care about mule deer say". Fighting ignorance with more ignorance, yeah, that shows how superior your positions are.

If anybody is still unsure, Yes, I am insane and a tree hugger.

The worshipping of false gods, at the alter of ignorance, short term greed and destruction, slowly and irreverently denude the moral, intelectual, and political fiber of this nations people. In much the same way that acid weeps from the sky, stripping the sustainance and future from hunters and mule deer. Is it slow, but ever persuasive, and hard to see by those blinded by self.

If we are soo inlcined by human nature to engage in an "us verses them battle", as our DNA is encode to do. Maybe some of us should take a que from some previously victorious tactitions and warriors of various struggles. The first that comes to mind is "know your enemy". Another is that fighting proxy wars makes you the pawn of foes greater than your engaged "'enemy". There are many more.

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keyword ... for%20kids


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Lonetree, I realize the point you are trying to get across and understand it and even agree to a certain extent. There are some things that hunters are ignorant about and don't see the whole picture on. This thread isn't called "factual things environmentally comcerned people are worried about and hunters scoff at." We have another thread going right now called insane things you have heard hunters say that might be more your speed if all you want to do is loathe the ignorance of hunters.


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

colorcountrygunner said:


> Lonetree, I realize the point you are trying to get across and understand it and even agree to a certain extent. There are some things that hunters are ignorant about and don't see the whole picture on. This thread isn't called "factual things environmentally comcerned people are worried about and hunters scoff at." We have another thread going right now called insane things you have heard hunters say that might be more your speed if all you want to do is loathe the ignorance of hunters.


Are you sure it is just a single thread? Oh.... I see you said "_called_ insane things you have heard hunters say"

The bully pulpit is where you find it, and is better utilized in an uphill fashion durring opposition, that is how the tactic works.

Thanks for the understanding.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Lonetree = The Lorax! o-||


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## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

MadHunter said:


> Lonetree = The Lorax! o-||


Cute, I have kids, and I had to google that one.

Good, some people on this forum are reading, coupled with the chemistry sets I linked to, we might be on the right track.

Oh... wait, it just occurred to me, you probably only watched the movie. o-||


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

GaryFish said:


> Idiot - GREAT story!! I love it.


+2!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Lonetree said:


> Cute, I have kids, and I had to google that one.
> 
> Good, some people on this forum are reading, coupled with the chemistry sets I linked to, we might be on the right track.
> 
> Oh... wait, it just occurred to me, you probably only watched the movie. o-||


I've read, watched, studied and understand. My brood and myself are on the right track. I know a few more that are also. The rest of the proletariat I can't vouch for.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

The only time I've had an issue with someone, was on opening day of the archery hunt up on the front. A jogger "A" came by and commented that he hopes that we don't mistake one of his friends(jogger "B") coming up the trail as a deer and shoot at him. I thanked him for the heads up and told him that I would warn his friend not not to mistake him (jogger "A") as a big fudge sickle, when he catches up to him. I just had to pull your head out of your AZZ! :mrgreen:


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Regarding killing the "worlds most famous wolf":

"People who kill because they think it's fun have something wrong with them. Period. Obeying some ancient instinct just because it's there is no excuse. Humans have evolved. We don't have to behave as our distant ancestors did. In fact, emulating them is what causes the world's worst problems: murder, rape, war, overpopulation, environmental destruction, etc. *Hunting wolves is just another example of humans misguided effort to glorify our basest instincts*.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

stillhunterman said:


> Regarding killing the "worlds most famous wolf":
> 
> ........................................................*Hunting wolves is just another example of humans misguided effort to glorify our basest instincts*.


Well, I would have to agree with that. Same would be true for hunting ducks.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

wyogoob said:


> stillhunterman said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding killing the "worlds most famous wolf":
> ...


Geeze goob, you just had to bring DUCKS into the scheme of things! :mrgreen:


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## Duckking88 (Dec 7, 2009)

I find it funny to some extent that people continue to use the whole "people have evloved" its barbaric" thing. All this calmed evlovlution comes from being in a happy and safe society. Look around go out into the wilds and just watch. Dont talk, listen and watch the world is wild and barbaric! Things kill things to live, its not just all warm and fuzzy like the fairy tales. Look at human beings when there stable society gose away they loot, steal, and kill to survive just like that barbaric wildlife dose, in a sense we are all barbaric its in our nature even if it shows up easier in some of us. So instead of hiding it hunters decide to embrass it somewhat, they say I understand the world is wild and to an extent so am I, yet we are given the abilty to control and help things along the way. This is why I think treehuggers have a hard time understanding us how is it that we can be so "barbaric" and kill animals yet in the same breath tell them all we love the wildlife. Its because we undrrstand that life is fragile and we appericate what the wilds and who ever we may pray to has given us, a means to embrase what other people call our "savage or barbaric side "

Sorry for the novel I hope I got my point across.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

You got yer point across very well Mr. Duck, and I agree with you.


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## Duckholla (Sep 24, 2007)

stillhunterman said:


> wyogoob said:
> 
> 
> > stillhunterman said:
> ...


So would farming! That's a stupid comment.


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