# Goob - the DWR Needs Your Help



## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

They need some ptarmigan samples.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/blog/2016/ptarmigan-genetics-in-the-uintas-and-beyond/


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Yeah thanks Clarq. 

The DWR wants ptarmigan hearts, the name of the drainage, and the GPS locations. I eat ptarmigan hearts and I'm terrible at names...Can't even spell "GPS", so I'm out. 

Maybe gdog can help.

.


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## Idratherbehunting (Jul 17, 2013)

wyogoob said:


> Yeah thanks Clarq.
> 
> The DWR wants ptarmigan hearts, the name of the drainage, and the GPS locations. I eat ptarmigan hearts and I'm terrible at names...Can't even spell "GPS", so I'm out.
> 
> ...


How about you just take me to your ptarmigan hunting location, and I will pass the info on to the DWR for you....


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## bekins24 (Sep 22, 2015)

It does say you can submit the head as well. Unless you use those for some sort of Ptarmigan head cheese.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Aw, cmon. They said that they would gladly take heads as well. 

You, uh, don't eat the heads do you? Aren't they too small for head cheese? 



Uh, on second thought maybe I don't want to know.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I gave them the head of my ptarmigan, even told them where I shot it--they are welcome to use that 'hotspot', gotta be some kind of masochist to enjoy that bird :grin:


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Don't get me wrong, I want to help the DWR and I'm thankful for all their work through the years introducing and then managing WTP as a game bird. What I don't want to see is a WTP map on the internet with stick pins on all the reported WTP kill GPS locations on it. Nevada did that with the Himalayan Snow****.

White-tailed Ptarmigan is the most difficult hunt in the Rocky Mountains, tougher than my sheep hunt (so far anyway). Locating the birds is the toughest part. 

In the early fall WTP hang in the same places year after year give or take about 800 yards. WTP are kinda tame, dumb if you will, and in my opinion could be easily over-hunted. We rarely, if ever, "limit out" in spite of the fact it would be easy to do so. Normally we walk away from birds, leave birds "for seed" I don't think the average Utah bird hunter would do that. So in my opinion a map of all the kills would reduce the WTP population dramatically. 

My advice: Shut yer smart phone off for a couple days, quit searching the internet for White-tailed Ptarmigan, put your boots on and take a hike like my friend Airborne did. 

It's a long way up there. Lots of Utah bird hunters talk the talk, few walk the walk. Good for the White-tailed Ptarmigan.

.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

I was chatting via email with Jason Robinson (upland game coordinator) about the study early this fall. I'm with Goob....I was game till they wanted specific gps coordinates. I conveyed that I thought this was a bad idea...and Mr. Robinson no longer wanted to trade emails. The issue I had as Goob mentions is putting exact location info on the www for all to see. 

I'm still not clear what they are exactly going to do with the information anyhow. What will the knowledge of knowing whether there were resident WTP here or not going to help the birds prosper?


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> ..................................
> 
> White-tailed Ptarmigan is the most difficult hunt in the Rocky Mountains, tougher than my sheep hunt (so far anyway)...................................
> 
> .


Well there are exceptions, birds that are not so hard to get to relatively speaking, but we leave those flocks alone for the non-consumptive outdoors people.

.


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## Avery Cook (Jul 31, 2014)

The purpose of the genetic samples is to contribute to a range-wide genetics study on white-tailed ptarmigan. The species was divided into 5 subspecies, however there are some arguments against the subspecies splits. The genetics study will help determine if they can be lumped back together. This matters because there was a warranted 90 finding by the Fish and Wildlife Service to list two of the subspecies as endangered.

So, if you have samples you can share they would be greatly appreciated and will make a valuable contribution to the future of WT ptarmigan as a game species. We all know how hard samples of ptarmigan are to get, that why we are asking for help. We do need to know where the samples came from (at least a drainage) because we are looking at geographic variation in genetics, but I can assure you there will be no public map made of your hunting spots posted up online. Like Goob says, they can easily be over hunted if you know where a covy is.

Further, we don't think there were ptarmigan in the Unitas before they were introduced in the 70's, but there are a few records that cast some doubt on that. We are also planning on comparing genetics of the source population in CO to the Uinta population to see if it looks like a totally introduced population or not.

If you have one and are willing to share, a wing/head/heart is convent, but we should be able to use most tissues or feathers (bigger ones with the bottom of the quill, especially growing pin feathers).

The 90 day finding for those that are interested: https://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/birds/whitetailedptarmigan/77FR33143.pdf

I would be happy to answer any more questions on why we are looking for ptarmigan samples here or over the phone. I am out of the Salt Lake DWR office if you want to give me a call.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Avery....thanks for clarification of the study and the link. Jason never mentioned that this study was in regards to a petition to listing the "Southern" and "Mnt Rainier" WTP as an endangered species.

The "Petitioner" (http://www.biologicaldiversity.org) lists climate warming, ski resort development, livestock & wildlife grazing, hunting, snowmobiling, mining, predation.....and on and on. I would assume this is typical with this type of petition(?) Throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

Is a copy of the actual petition available to look at for curiosity sake? With the lack of actual detailed studies on WTP in US, it is interesting how much researched data the petitioner supplied with the petition or if these are really based off general causes which could really be a templet for a vast number of other species who live in the same general areas(?)


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Thank you for posting here Avery, that was a very good explanation. 

A couple of minor suggestions for the DWR.

First, when I took the head of my ptarmigan to the Springville DWR office, they had no idea what I was bringing in and why I was doing it and more importantly what they were supposed to do with it. I got out my phone and showed them the email I received from the chukar foundation and who they were supposed to contact and get the bird to. I also told them they needed to get it in the freezer. My point is I hope that the DWR can better inform their employees and ensure that these samples don't get lost or misplaced. They don't come easy :grin: I hope you received mine, my real life handle is Riley

Second minor suggestion. As someone who turned in a bit of ptarmigan, it would be pretty cool to get a letter from the DWR explaining in detail what these were being used for just like you typed out here. Knowing what you guys are doing helps motivate me to provide further samples in the future and makes me feel like I am helping in some good work. Not a big deal but would be nice to be in the loop. Also this would be a cool thing to put in the chukar foundation flyer--Travis would love it.

Thanks!


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## Avery Cook (Jul 31, 2014)

gdog - The "see what sticks" approach to listing petitions is pretty common, even on the species level. There are petitions listing hundreds of species.

I don't have a copy of the ptarmigan petition, they are often listed on the FWS site, but this one is not showing up for whatever reason. (https://ecos.fws.gov/ecp/report/table/petitions-received.html)

Airborne - Thanks for your sample, it made it up to the Salt Lake office. And thanks for the feedback, I will look at where the roadblock was in getting the info out on receiving the samples and try to avoid the same problem in the future. Good idea on the letter too.

Thanks


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Avery.....how many samples have you received so far?


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## Avery Cook (Jul 31, 2014)

Somewhere around 15-20. I don't have a final count yet.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Avery following up on this post and study. Any update on results from the samples gathered?


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> Don't get me wrong, I want to help the DWR and I'm thankful for all their work through the years introducing and then managing WTP as a game bird. What I don't want to see is a WTP map on the internet with stick pins on all the reported WTP kill GPS locations on it. Nevada did that with the Himalayan Snow****.
> 
> White-tailed Ptarmigan is the most difficult hunt in the Rocky Mountains, tougher than my sheep hunt (so far anyway). Locating the birds is the toughest part.
> 
> ...


bump

.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

gdog said:


> Avery following up on this post and study. Any update on results from the samples gathered?


BUMP


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm canning pickled beets. Leave me alone.


.


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## Avery Cook (Jul 31, 2014)

gdog said:


> Avery following up on this post and study. Any update on results from the samples gathered?


Sorry for the long delay. I haven't logged in in a while. 

The results are detailed in the paper Characterizing range-wide divergence in an alpine-endemic bird:
a comparison of genetic and genomic approaches

There was evidence for two major divisions of WT ptarmigan. The Colorado (+NM and UT) birds and British Columbia birds. The Utah birds were very similar to the bulk of the population in Colorado indicating that there was likely no birds in the Uintah's before they were translocated from Colorado.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Avery Cook said:


> Sorry for the long delay. I haven't logged in in a while.
> 
> The results are detailed in the paper Characterizing range-wide divergence in an alpine-endemic bird:
> a comparison of genetic and genomic approaches
> ...


Thanks for the head's up.....interesting.


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