# Blue Ribbon? Hah!



## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

Looking at the proclamation I see that Diamond Fork and the South Fork on the Ogden are listed under general regulations, allowing bait and a standard limit, 4 trout any species. They are both also missing from the Blue Ribbon Rivers list (as well as that little gem tributary to Diamond Fork). Just another check on the long list of mismanagment issues in the state. Both of these rivers have lots of large brown trout so obviously the overpopulation should not be an issue here. While I am not a huge fan on Cutthroat, both of these rivers have them as the secondary species, the same fish that the state of utah has spent millions of dollars protecting. Just recently the entire upper stretch of diamond fork was treated with rotenone to remove brown trout so the recently re-introduced Bonneville Cutthroat could establish themselves.

Would good is the blue ribbon streams program if it doesn't protect two of our best rivers in northern/central Utah? It saddens me to see charitable organizations such as The Stonefly Society make these contributions to these programs when we, as anglers do not get to see the benefits from the funds. These are some of the only rivers in Utah that have a major Salmonfly hatch that remain fishable during the high water period. 

Heres a bit off the DWR Blue ribbon web site. Notice the Angler Tip right after reading that the state maintains this fishery through wild reproduction---
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Strawberry River

Starvation Reservoir to Duchesne River

Location and description

The five-mile stretch of the Strawberry River, below Starvation Reservoir, flows through a mix of public, private and Ute Indian Trust Lands. Roughly, most of the upper portion is private land, the middle section is Trust Lands and the lower section is a mix of public (city) and private.

Game fish species and methods

Brown and rainbow trout provide most of the angling action. The river also supports a large, healthy whitefish population. The fisheries are maintained through natural reproduction. Angler tip: imitate natural foods. Beginning anglers usually do better with baits such as worms, worm/marshmallow combinations and power baits.
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Anyone who has ever fished this river knows that it is an incredible river as well. The average fish is quite large but it does have a small population because of low water drawdown out of Starvation dam. How can you manage a river as a "blue ribbon fishery" and still encourage anglers to fish bait (which has been proven increases fish mortality exponentially) and allow them to keep a full limit of fish? On a unrelated point it also states whitefish to be an abundant fish in the river which is 100% false according to fish shocking studies done recently in the river. Estimates show an average of maybe a dozen whitefish per river mile.

Sorry to be so long winded but I am finally fed up with mismanagement of our rivers here in Utah. We have incredible fisheries and programs in place to take care of them, but it seems the focuse is elsewhere. Like stocking 5,000,000 tiger trout, which are a fish that only comes from fish hatcheries, and has a voracious aggressive charachteristic in every body of water in the state. Tiger Trout are a fisheries manager dream come true: no wild reproduction so managers can manage fish numbers to a near science, theoretically controling catch rates. No protection of spawning streams or habitat, no closed seasons, and big numbers on the stocking report to encourage everyday anglers to get out and fish, which increases license revenue. The DWR gets all this profit back.

IMHO


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

flyguy7 said:


> Both of these rivers have lots of large brown trout so obviously the overpopulation should not be an issue here.


Streams or fisheries only NEED protective regulations when the fishery in question has an overharvest problem. The "tributary" to Diamond Fork--I am assuming you mean Sixth water--does NOT have an overharvest issue. I would assume that the same can be said about the South Fork of the Ogden. Overpopulation is not the problem...why, then, protect these fish, increase fish numbers, and make one?



flyguy7 said:


> Would good is the blue ribbon streams program if it doesn't protect two of our best rivers in northern/central Utah? It saddens me to see charitable organizations such as The Stonefly Society make these contributions to these programs when we, as anglers do not get to see the benefits from the funds. These are some of the only rivers in Utah that have a major Salmonfly hatch that remain fishable during the high water period.


What needs protecting? Don't these streams already have nice fish? Do you realize that an increase of fish in these streams could actually decrease the fish sizes?



flyguy7 said:


> Anyone who has ever fished this river knows that it is an incredible river as well. The average fish is quite large but it does have a small population because of low water drawdown out of Starvation dam.


I think you do NOT understand the biology of fishery management. Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps the reason the fish are "quite large" is a direct result of the "small" population and the "low drawdown out of Starvation dam"?



flyguy7 said:


> How can you manage a river as a "blue ribbon fishery" and still encourage anglers to fish bait (which has been proven increases fish mortality exponentially) and allow them to keep a full limit of fish? On a unrelated point it also states whitefish to be an abundant fish in the river which is 100% false according to fish shocking studies done recently in the river. Estimates show an average of maybe a dozen whitefish per river mile.


Again, protective harvest regulations are only beneficial to fisheries when harvest is the limiting factor in growth. Bait fishing can be allowed and even help maintain trophy fisheries when growth is being negatively affected by the number of fish. I suggest you read this paper on managing fish populations...it talks much about this subject:
http://wildlife.utah.gov/fishing/
Click on the above site and scroll down to this paper:
"A Simple 4-step Method to Manage for Quality Fishing"

It sounds to me like you adhere to two common myths: 1) Catch-and-release fishing regulations allow for fish to live longer, and thus grow larger 2) When fishing regulations allow larger fish to be harvested, only the small fish survive. Again, read the paper I listed above; it debunks these common myths.

ON streams like Sixth Water, where "growth is reapid, then harvest of trout by fishermen is not a great threat to quality fishing. In either Boulder Moutnain lakes or brown trout streams, moderate annual harvest of 16-18 inch trout is replaced annually by younger fish quickly growing to this same size. Even if 80-90% of the 16-18 inch trout are harvested, they are replaced each year and there are still some fish left to potentially grow even larger."



flyguy7 said:


> Sorry to be so long winded but I am finally fed up with mismanagement of our rivers here in Utah. We have incredible fisheries and programs in place to take care of them, but it seems the focuse is elsewhere. Like stocking 5,000,000 tiger trout, which are a fish that only comes from fish hatcheries, and has a voracious aggressive charachteristic in every body of water in the state. Tiger Trout are a fisheries manager dream come true: no wild reproduction so managers can manage fish numbers to a near science, theoretically controling catch rates. No protection of spawning streams or habitat, no closed seasons, and big numbers on the stocking report to encourage everyday anglers to get out and fish, which increases license revenue. The DWR gets all this profit back.


Tiger trout are a great species because they are easily managed...biologists can control their numbers. This is not only beneficial to managers but also fishermen...because managers can control their numbers, managers can also easily manage fish sizes.

Protection of spawning habitat or improving spawning habitat is vital when it is the means by which a fishery is sustained. Utah has done tons of work on spawning habitat...especially in regards to native trout. However, protecting spawning fish in fisheries that do not have overharvest or recruitment problems is limiting fishermen unnecessarily.

Some of my favorite fisheries would suffer from restrictive harvest regulations and improved spawning habitat. My suggestion to you would be to contact fisheries biologists within the regions that you have concerns on and find out why fisheries are managed the way they are. My guess is that you would have a better understanding of the biology and situation in question....


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## handsomefish (Nov 14, 2007)

Why does every one think they can manage better than the DWR
Makeing changes that make you happy might upset someone else, The dwr has a million poeple to keep happy, so they have provide different places that eveyone can fish, Artifical only for some and bait areas for others
The south fork is where I catch my biggest browns and I like It just the way it is and wouldn't want to see any changes


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## flyguy7 (Sep 16, 2007)

I am not saying everything that the state does wrong is incorrect. And I think you misunderstood my post incorrecty, Wyo2 because you were to busy jumping to the sides of the DWR. My point being made is what are the positive benefits that we have seen from the Blue Ribbon Streams? What the point of the entire project? If the fisheries are fine why even have such a project?

First of all the average sized fish IS down on both Diamond Fork and the South Fork of the Ogden. This is not a debatable point. I have spend hundreds of days on both rivers for several years. Every since the opening of the Diamond Fork road after the completion of the Tanner Ridge tunnel complex, there are fewer and fewer large fish every year. Still some very nice fish, but less and less. Ironically enough, there are more and more visitors to the campground every year since the re-opening.

Yes, I know that the reason the fish are so large below startvation is directly related to the low drawdown of stream flows. No sh*t! The point being make is anglers are allowed to harvest a full limit of fish, any size with bait, where there is already a very low population. Were not talking the middle Provo here, (which is highly overpopulated) and would benefit from angler harvest. There is a big difference between 4,500 fpm and 600-700 fpm.

Bottom line is fisheries management is a very difficult thing to please both sides. I would like to see a big push towards finding a way to get more water into our streams in that get dewatered completely such as east canyon creek in park city and the Weber immediately below echo reservoir.


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## southernman (Nov 14, 2007)

I guess its hard for fisherman to see someone keeping a limit of fish, and understanding they are helping the fishery, not hurting it . . .

but its true . . .



sm


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## handsomefish (Nov 14, 2007)

I'm not sure what your point is?, the two streams you talk about aren't blue ribbon streams and the south fork of the ogden does have restrictions, four trout limit but only two can be browns
As far as the low flows go the DWR does not control the the flows and in drought years the water is more important than the fish unfortunatly


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

flyguy7.....pm sent !!!...you got mail..


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