# Coyote hunting petition



## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

So, this Gentleman from Florida has started a petition to ban coyote hunting in utah. And while I don't think he'll actually get it banned, it makes me wonder what on earth a Florida resident feels entitled to try to enact change on wildlife management more than halfway across the country. He currently has got over 10,000 signatures on this thing.

https://www.change.org/p/end-the-coyote-bounty-hunt-in-utah

So. I know we have some truly well spoken folks on this board. I'd love to see this Kevin Byrne get his email box flooded with INTELLIGENT retorts to his petition. Please keep in mind that foul language and death threats actually do more harm than good. But I'd be interested to see members engage this person. He currently has 28 petitions he's started to enact change in areas he's probably never stepped foot in. I wouldn't mind seeing us put our foot down on this one.


----------



## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

A lot of the ARA's are from out of state. If you look at their Facebook profiles anyway. They like to argue on pro hunting pages and pages where people post pics of their harvests.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

How about we petition to ban liberals from posting petitions.


----------



## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Didn't most of the 6000 coyotes killed and turned in for bounty last year come from Nevada and Wyoming?


----------



## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

Either way, it might be worthwhile to put together a well written counter petition to send to Governor Herbert and the DWR. Get more signatures than they've already got. 

I'm hald tempted to start a petition on that website, because apparently that's what the site is for, to petition for a ban on Kevin Byrne starting any more petitions. Just for fun.


----------



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

This is a good warning to the hunting community who take their privledges for granted. If we can't show respect for the animals we hunt and a use for hunting for management and conservation we are headed down paths like this. Keep things like this in the back of your mind when posting on Facebook and talking about the animals you harvest. 

Remember only 10% of the population hunts, 10% of the population are avid anti-hunters, and 80% are the ones who support hunting as conservation and management. It isn't either 10% making the decisions. How we represent ourselves to that 80% is what will determine our fate. Show respect for the animals you hunt, sadly I don't think a lot of people understand that part. I cringe sometimes listening to people talk about the animal they killed like it was nothing or they don't care about the death involved with hunting. Will I apologize for hunting? No. But I won't stand with those who can't respect the wildlife they pursue and those who don't have compassion for the animals that died during their hunt. I don't care if that comes across as soft, we should all have a soft spot for the animals we harvest. I'm a hunter not a killer.


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Nothing like a plumber telling an electrician how to do his job. 

Telling a western state how it should manages its resources from back East is just daft to say the least.


----------



## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

Coyotes have always been an unprotected species in Utah. The state is full of hunters who are more then willing to play the part of coyote exterminator. Forget the stupid little bounty. If what I described in the first two sentences hasn't doomed the coyote population yet then not much else will unless we bring back the old M44 guns. Nobody needs to worry their silly little heads about the bounty wiping out the coyotes. His petition is a waste of time.


----------



## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

There is nothing I like to hear more on a night in the deserted places than a coyote yip, bark, and howl.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

WasatchOutdoors said:


> ...this Gentleman from Florida ..what on earth a Florida resident feels entitled to try to enact change on wildlife management more than halfway across the country. ...





Bax* said:


> Telling a western state how it should manages its resources from back East is just daft to say the least.


The great thing about this country is that our widlife is public. Each of us has a say. It doesn't matter where you live, our public resources are still public resources. It isn't weighted -- one person doesn't have a greater say than any other.

We also have a right to speak our minds.

If someone from Florida wants to speak out against coyote hunting in Utah, that's OK in my book.

If someone in Utah wants to speak out in favor of manatee hunting in Florida, that's also OK in my book.

petitioning a petition to petition the petition of another petition is stupid.

Are you guys really fearful that a petition from Florida might shut down coyote hunting in Utah? My goodness! Our wonderful governor Sherbert would never allow such a thing! Even with all the good science that supports facts stating that coyotes are NOT the issue (deer herd predation), our state continues to support coyote bounties!! What makes any of you think a petition from Florida would change this??

I love hearing the coyotes yipping at night at Bullfrog. Anyone want to go hunting?

Carry on.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Don't know what your talking about. They took 90 dogs off the north end of monroe in a day from a chopper. The deer hunting has been the best in decades and there are rabbits like you wouldn't believe. Im pretty sure coyotes are meat eaters and they do in fact have an effect. Regardless of the 3 studies you anti predator hunter keep sighting.

Pro predator is about as anti hunting as you can get. Every critter killed by a natural predator is a critter a hunter can't kill. And anti hunters know it.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

oh come on IB. You seriously think that the deer and rabbits came back because 90 coyotes were removed? That it had nothing to do with mild winters and wet summers? What about the chest-high grass on the mountain -- is that a result of fewer dogs too?

Every critter killed by a natural predator is a critter a hunter can't kill -- but that's only half the story. In a compensatory situation that predator kill may result in more animals available for hunters to hunt (and kill). But you already know this.

Predators need _management_. They need hunting. We need to hunt them. Just like any other of our game animals, populations need to be managed. Nobody is arguing that. Management is necessary. Management is good. Killing dogs is good. But like anything else, when done in extreme it can be bad too.

so, just out of curiosity, what's going to happen to that rabbit population without their natural predators? They'll probably have a population crash due disease.

Maybe they should have only killed 89 dogs?


----------



## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Okay three guys are deceased and waiting at the pearly gate for a visit with Saint Peter.
The first one gets called up to the desk.

Saint Peter: What was your IQ when you lived?
1st deceased man: It was 160.
Saint Peter: Wow, a genius. Did you get your doctorate degree?
1st deceased man: Why, yes I did.
Saint Peter: Great, go to room 3.

Second deceased man is called to the desk.
Saint Peter: What was your IQ when you lived?
2nd deceased man: 120.
Saint Peter: Great, a border-line genius. Did you get your bachelors degree?
2nd deceased man: Yes, I did.
Saint Peter: Go to room 4.

Third deceased man is called to the desk.
Saint Peter: What was your IQ when you lived?
3rd deceased man: Heck, I don't know. I think it was like 20 or something.
Saint Peter: Did you get your deer?

Sometimes, I just think coyotes are smarter than most hunters.


----------



## spacinout (Jul 19, 2014)

Iron Bear said:


> Don't know what your talking about. They took 90 dogs off the north end of monroe in a day from a chopper. The deer hunting has been the best in decades and there are rabbits like you wouldn't believe. Im pretty sure coyotes are meat eaters and they do in fact have an effect. Regardless of the 3 studies you anti predator hunter keep sighting.
> 
> Pro predator is about as anti hunting as you can get. Every critter killed by a natural predator is a critter a hunter can't kill. And anti hunters know it.


Cottontail rabbit populations cycle roughly every 10 years, Utah is on a peak cycle now after bottoming out in 2010. Look it up. Rabbits are not a good indicator that coyote populations decreasing is having a significant impact on rabbit numbers. Remember, correlation does not imply causation.

I've never even heard a serious discussion about a coyote/deer population interaction until I moved to Utah. I from Nebraska, we've got gobs of coyotes and whitetails. When the deer numbers are low it's usually due to disease and/or a hard winter. A few years ago Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease took out all the deer which was caused by a drought. Before that mange was killing all the coyotes. Both populations rising and falling independently. Keep on believing the coyotes are killing all your deer, if you want, seems silly to me.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Put one cougar for every 150 deer in Nebraska like we have in Utah and you may not have many deer at all. The deer herd in Utah and all western states that have apex predators like cougar have been on a steady decline since the ban on 1080 and the implementation of LE cougar hunting. 

As to rabbits if you archive threads on this very site good rabbit hunting was far and few between just a few years ago. I recall conversations about this bust boom not occurring like it did before. When you go rabbit hunting and notice a raptor on every telephone pole for miles. I can easily see why we wouldn't have the booms of the old days where you could shoot a brick in a day. 

I'm not surprised the natural predators are mother natures way to limit prey populations. I'm not so sure why so many pro hunters fail to recognize or deny them as a factor. Anti hunters I get why but not hunters.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Look at the Parowan deer study coyote are the second biggest factor attributed to deer mortality besides cougar. You got to have a lot of faith that those deer would have died from other reasons considering the range there is in great shape and the herd is nowhere near capacity there. Compensatory? I think not. 

We recognize shed hunters atvs and paragliders scare deer and elk. Making them burn much needed calories. A natural predator keeps prey in its toes burning more calories then if it wasn't present. I'm convinced high predator population contribute to low fawn recruitment directly and indirect.


----------



## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Maybe we could "live catch" those pesky critters and send them to Florida at his Home Address. See if he likes them in his "Hood" -O,-


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

spacinout said:


> Cottontail rabbit populations cycle roughly every 10 years, Utah is on a peak cycle now after bottoming out in 2010. Look it up. Rabbits are not a good indicator that coyote populations decreasing is having a significant impact on rabbit numbers. Remember, correlation does not imply causation.
> 
> I've never even heard a serious discussion about a coyote/deer population interaction until I moved to Utah. I from Nebraska, we've got gobs of coyotes and whitetails. When the deer numbers are low it's usually due to disease and/or a hard winter. A few years ago Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease took out all the deer which was caused by a drought. Before that mange was killing all the coyotes. Both populations rising and falling independently. Keep on believing the coyotes are killing all your deer, if you want, seems silly to me.


I am just curious, how many deer do you think a coyote will kill in an average year? Also do you think they just kill fawns or do you think they will kill adult deer as well?


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

PBH said:


> The great thing about this country is that our widlife is public. Each of us has a say. It doesn't matter where you live, our public resources are still public resources. It isn't weighted -- one person doesn't have a greater say than any other.
> 
> We also have a right to speak our minds.
> 
> ...


I didn't see your post til just now.

I am not fearful of this guy's petition. What I am bothered by is the fact that when you don't live in the state you are meddling with, you don't understand the issues nor the way of life. I don't feel qualified to weigh in on Florida and their management of wildlife, nor do I feel qualified to cry foul when shooting Cecil the Lion.

This wont have any bearing on what happens in Utah and its a waste of time for this guy to stick his fingers in the pot. Its a waste of his time, and more importantly it is a waste of our time and tax payer dollars when submitted to the DNR.

I know you are playing devil's advocate and I respect your point of view. However, I don't see any specific need for an outsider to dictate the way we live when it has no bearing on how he lives.


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

HighNDry said:


> There is nothing I like to hear more on a night in the deserted places than a coyote yip, bark, and howl.


Last week I was on the shore at Deer Creek in the dark and heard movement in the brush behind me, turned my lantern around to see four sets of coyote height eyes in the brush and it wasn't one of my favorite things. They followed the brush line with me all the way back to the car.

I'll be taking a shotgun with some buckshot and slugs up one of these weekends soon and I'm going to do my best to push them to the end of the knoll and make myself $200.


----------



## Jedidiah (Oct 10, 2014)

People are looking for the style of wildlife management they do in Yellowstone. Huge areas are full of animals that will kill you if you try to hike through or camp, so all you get to do is drive through and munch on your veggie burgers while you watch bears. If people want to spend money on something that hates them they should have kids and revel in their teenage years.


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Jedidiah said:


> If people want to spend money on something that hates them they should have kids and revel in their teenage years.


 Bwahahahaha! -_O-


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Bax* said:


> What I am bothered by is the fact that when you don't live in the state you are meddling with, you don't understand the issues nor the way of life.


But that's the great thing with living in the United States of America. You have that right. Whether or not you have the knowledge is a whole other issue.

You do have a right with the way public resources are managed in other states. That's a good thing. If not, Utah might not have any land available for hunting -- it would all be fenced off for drilling and mining!

I'm not agreeing with the person working on the coyote bounty -- I'm just saying that it is his right fight for coyotes if he wants. We should NEVER be required to be a resident of a particular state to have a say in a public resource. Just imagine what might happen to the Boulder Mountain if you had to be a resident of Garfield or Wayne county to have your say in the management of that area! And, scary as it might seem, our state and county representatives continue to push more and more for this type of system! Are you guys really in favor of a system like that?

I'm not.


----------



## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> Look at the Parowan deer study coyote are the second biggest factor attributed to deer mortality besides cougar. You got to have a lot of faith that those deer would have died from other reasons considering the range there is in great shape and the herd is nowhere near capacity there.


What in the hell are you even talking about? IB, you don't have a clue, do you? The whole reason deer are being removed from the Parowan front is because their winter range is in serious trouble. The DWR has been trying for years to get those deer killed because they are eating themselves out of house and home on the Parowan front. They have actually been at or very near their capacity for quite some time. The compromise was made between the DWR and SFW to transplant some of those deer somewhere else instead of killing them. The Parowan Front deer have been in jeopardy of dying of other causes...but thanks to the transplants and to doe hunts, that hasn't happened. Sadly, though, we are still near the tipping point on the Front.

Also, what you keep missing out on with compensatory predation is that once the predators are removed the same numbers of animals still die. That HAS happened on Monroe during different years of the current study. So, even though numerous coyotes were killed, the same number of deer still died...just from other causes--a perfect example of compensatory predation.
So, what happened on the years when survival increased? It could have been a whole long list of other factors that played out...including warm wet winters and good feed. This winter has been predicted to be a tough one...if we do get lots of snow and cold weather, how do you think the deer herd would respond?

Your ignorance on this issue is a sad commentary...


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

PBH said:


> You do have a right with the way public resources are managed in other states. That's a good thing. If not, Utah might not have any land available for hunting -- it would all be fenced off for drilling and mining!
> 
> I'm not agreeing with the person working on the coyote bounty -- I'm just saying that it is his right fight for coyotes if he wants.


 PBH.... are you a member of SUWA? :mrgreen:

I agree with you to an extent. But again, I don't think an outsider understands what is needed. Especially when people protest something in a state they likely haven't ever set foot in. Sounds like an animal rights activist petition to me.


----------



## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Bax* said:


> I agree with you to an extent. But again, I don't think an outsider understands what is needed. Especially when people protest something in a state they likely haven't ever set foot in. Sounds like an animal rights activist petition to me.


It does to me too! But, they still have that right. Why would we want to take that right away?

Their lack of understanding (ie: ignorance) does not make it OK for us to take away their rights.

Do I want to see efforts undertaken to restore the Columbia River salmon runs? You bet I do. Do you think that right should be taken away from me because I live in Utah? What about the wolf issues in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana? Should I have a voice in those matters? Sure.

The difference is that some people keep their mouths shut when ignorant, and some don't. :-o


----------



## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

PBH said:


> Their lack of understanding (ie: ignorance) does not make it OK for us to take away their rights.


And yet, it would be nice to take that right away based on stupidity. Obviously that is a subjective term, but the thought of a voice being muted based off ignorance and stupidity makes me smile sometimes.

I guess I could move to China if I really wanted that though....


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

wyoming2utah said:


> What in the hell are you even talking about?...


I'm talking about the number one killer of deer. Cougar and coyote. The transplant mortality study clearly shows predators are killing more deer then anything else hands down. Again this is on range that is supposed to be in good shape. Hence that's why that moved them there.

You in denial buddy.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I'd venture to guess you or 1-I don't understand compensatory vs additive mortality.


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Iron Bear said:


> I'd venture to guess you or 1-I don't understand compensatory vs additive mortality.


Let's get something crystal clear, it really is irrelevant whether it is compensatory or additive, mortality is mortality. When the deer or elk is dead it can't reproduce and it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things how the animal died. The issue is to identify and QUANTIFY all sources of deer/elk mortality and affect those that can be affected to bring the herd count into optimum numbers. There are a multitude of factors that affect mortality and survival. Coyotes and cougars are well known predators that have significant impacts on herds. If you don't believe coyotes impact herds simply go on youtube and look at videos of coyotes stalking fawns like a bloodhound, look at coyotes taking down full grown bucks, etc. It stands to reason a reduction in predator counts will cause less stress on the deer herds which should translate to increasing numbers.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Agreed a buck killed by a cougar is a buck a hunter won't harvest. 

It's really not as complicated as some would have you think.


----------



## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I haven't mentioned in a while that.  An adult cougar kills on average one deer per week. The DWR thinks there's about 3000 cats in Utah. Goofy will tell you it's more like 2000. So we're approaching 100k deer per year to feed them.

How many deer are killed by coyote? Who knows? Who wants to know?

The DWR sure wants to know about every single deer killed by a human. It spends millions per year to dictate that. Poaching? How can it have an impact but predators not? Tag cuts? Only human kills matter?


----------



## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Iron Bear said:


> I haven't mentioned in a while that.  An adult cougar kills on average one deer per week. The DWR thinks there's about 3000 cats in Utah. Goofy will tell you it's more like 2000. So we're approaching 100k deer per year to feed them.
> 
> How many deer are killed by coyote? Who knows? Who wants to know?
> 
> The DWR sure wants to know about every single deer killed by a human. It spends millions per year to dictate that. Poaching? How can it have an impact but predators not? Tag cuts? Only human kills matter?


Please quit trying to present facts and logic into an emotional discussion. ;-)


----------



## maffleck (Jul 23, 2015)

Someone else may have mentioned this but I wonder sometimes on these petitions that they are just wolf lovers. We recently had that article with the wolf that was killed and it chronicled how far this wolf had traveled and how heroic it had been only to be shot and killed mistaken as a Coyote. We can have the discussion about how the mistaken identity happens, but nonetheless, that was what the article reported. The anti hunter wolf loving folks were saying things like the hunters "should be strung up and killed for killing a beautiful creature." I read entry after entry without one sane person. All of them wanted all hunters banned if not killed and so when you wonder why a guy in Florida doesn't want Coyote hunting in Utah, there may be more going on there.


----------

