# 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbers



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the news release and the recommended permit numbers for limited entry 
and OIAL that will be presented to the RAC meetings.....

http://wildlife.utah.gov/dwr/news/42-ut ... mbers.html

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meeting ... -04-01.pdf

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meeting ... -04-03.pdf


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## Fritz (Mar 1, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011*

Thanks Goofy!


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Great info Goofy glad to see if any they reduced the moose tag numbers.


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Thanks Goofy!

I think I actually like most of it. Which is a shocker.

Willard peak must have a ton of goats on it!


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Maybe all my hate mail finally got somewhere with biologists about the cache moose herd :shock: .........about time they cut the tags, to bad it wasn't a few years ago before the herd was destroyed.......


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

With the exception of moose in the cottonwood canyons the wasatch needs a break too!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

I've had a chance now to look over most of the numbers now and believe they
are very solid other than just a few...

The increase of LE elk on the Wasatch will put over 300 any weapon (rifle) hunters
all on the mountain during the rut. Combine that with increased spike tags on the
general elk season and the Wasatch unit will take a big hit this year.

And I agree with the moose comments, there is a study going on right now
concerning the moose issues in Utah .
If I can get my hands on it I'll post that info up also.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Thanks Goof


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

290,000+ deer.......................

Far cry from the deer are all gone, don't you think.......


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

I like some of the numbers.But man looking at other numbers.It going to take me another 7 years to draw a tag and another 20+ years for another tag.I guess I better not fall behind in the points.For moose we would have a dam good heard here if they would stop trading them for smaller game.


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## duckhunter1096 (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

I find it rather interesting that the central unit (which happens to be my playground) has zero changes to it for the buck deer. Yet for the past few years, it's been restricted to fewer and fewer days. WTH is going on here?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



> I find it rather interesting that the central unit (which happens to be my playground) has zero changes to it for the buck deer. Yet for the past few years, it's been restricted to fewer and fewer days. WTH is going on here?


It means the central region is doing just fine regardless of what the doom and gloom posters say.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

The one recommendation that I laughed at was the INCREASE in cow elk tags for the Fish Lake unit...last winter the cow elk hunt was shut down because of political and public pressure that the DWR was "slaughtering" the elk herd. Despite all of the "doom and gloom" though, the population is still ABOVE objective! Just like I said last winter, the number of elk killed on cow elk hunts won't hurt the population at all...


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Some items stand out to me--

-Cow moose tags are cut everywhere, except on CWMUs. If Chalk Creek has that many cow moose then there should have been public draw tags (non-CWMU) and if the moose there are struggling also then there should be no tags at all.

-Without the increase of elk tags on 4 units, limited entry elk tags would have fallen by 200. Expect to see more reductions over the next 5 years.

- Thought the Nebo would see a hit and all the guys hoping for those low point ML and Archery tags might be disappointed.

-The Wasatch continues to produce bulls older than the objective. Out of those 600 permits they will kill 400 or so bulls? That is a high number, but the data shows the need.

It is interesting that the trophy buck permits on the LTD units have not been climbing. I thought micro-management proponents said smaller unit management and controlling hunters will grow our herds......


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



goofy elk said:


> I've had a chance now to look over most of the numbers now and believe they
> are very solid other than just a few...
> 
> The increase of LE elk on the Wasatch will put over 300 any weapon (rifle) hunters
> ...


I thought you might like this Goofy....but when the central region recommended the increase on the Wasatch Unit and stated why none of the SFW folks had a problem with it. That included Don P, Dave W, and John B. I was in the meeting.

The reason they told us they were increasing tags by so much is that unit is way over on average harvest age. They are also about 1000 animals over objective. They have stepped up cow elk tags as well on that unit. Add to it there is some planned developments that are going in on some critical winter range that will reduce carrying capacity. They are intentionally trying to reduce that herd.


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Dude I'd HATE to be an elk on the Wasatch! I see a potential cluster this fall. -8/- -8/-


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

You mind expounding?


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



bullsnot said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> > I've had a chance now to look over most of the numbers now and believe they
> ...


Sad that there is one general area of the Wasatch, that is 1000 over objective and the rest of the Unit has to suffer though. Being the one general area is PRIVATE surrounded by CWMU's the whole Wasatch Unit becomes 1 so up the tags for all. Thats where option 2 would be good for elk also. But ya KILL EM ALL off more hay for my cows. :mrgreen:


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## Mrad (Mar 25, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

-8/- The wasatch is thankfully busted up into smaller units.

Open up Wolf Creek Ranches and Victory during the early season to put a dent in the herd, but we all know that isn't goin to happen.

I love this little guy! -8/-


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



Packout said:


> It is interesting that the trophy buck permits on the LTD units have not been climbing. I thought micro-management proponents said smaller unit management and controlling hunters will grow our herds......


Touche! :O•-:


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

o-|| :shock: :|  -)O(-


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

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WOW,,,,3,225 cow elk permits on the Wasatch as well!

HOLLY COW :shock:

Looks to me like opportunity is alive and well..

Forget about the deer..

Just buy a spike tag and apply for an antler less tag..

You can have two elk tags in your pocket , and when that herd runs out
you can put a 1000 pounds of elk on the ground,,,,,,Legally :!:


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

WOW 3225 now thats opportunity :mrgreen: But sad opportunity. Goofy what is the season dates this year for the cows?


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## yak4fish (Nov 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

3225 cow tags and 603 LE bull tags? What's the bull to cow ratio or does anybody care. :?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

A good portion of the cow tags are October hunts which have a relatively low success rate. At the Central recommendation meeting we decided it would be a good idea to move tags from the January hunts to October hunts to give wintering deer a bit of a break. Since the October hunts are a much lower success rate, they were able to give out more tags.

Any way you slice it the Wasatch is 18% over objective and law dictates that they get it under control.

Between being 1000 animals over objective, loss of winter range/encroachment on the Heber side of things and needing to make room for next springs' calves, that pretty much have no predation, the estimated harvest to tag allocation numbers are in line.

I get it that if you are a Wasatch guy that wants to see gigantic bulls all over the place you will be a bit upset, but the fact remains that the Wasatch is managed for opportunity, reflected by the age objective.

And remember, tags are one thing, harvest is another. So I suggest before you go off half ****ed without all of the information, do a little research. For the last few years we have pretty much been exclusively harvesting excess animals.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

I'm not goin go off half ****ed but the real problem is not the whole Wasatch. I transferred my points else where so I really don't care. I suppose if harvest is up and doesn't run into February again my cows will have more hay to eat. The real problem here is Wolf Creek ranches does indeed home the 1000 over objective and there is no hunting allowed. When the elk pull out of Wolf Creek in December they go to more private and CWMUs. At which this is the deal they run the elk from high points of the CWMUs to the valley floor which then is an issue.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Gotcha and I believe this is another reason for the earlier hunt tag allocations. People can harvest these animals before they are pressured and/or move to winter range on private ground.

On the flip side I see your concern and if I had the same concern, I'd make some phone calls and make people aware and also get an explanation.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

This is the outcome of the Public Hearings and workshops that have taken place in Heber. So not much of a suprise but I don't agree the whole unit has to suffer. Most the the cow hunters should be located in the CWMUs to take care of the over objectived area not the whole unit. I bet 75% of the hunters all go to Strawberry and not many will be pointed to the problem area though.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Hey, right now they are just recommendations. It's not too late to raise a stink about your details.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

I know, I am just saying my thoughts that I talked about at the workshop the other night. We did accomplish to get 10 archery only cow tags in Wolf Creek Ranches though. My biggest thing there was to get the CWMU to allow public access for cow hunters. The CWMUs are a joke they do not want to work with anyone though.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Pheaz I think you are partially right. There is a concentration of elk in the areas you mentioned but make no mistake the whole unit is still over objective. What I mean by that is elk are still pretty dispersed on that unit until the rifle hunts start and that's when they head for the sanctuary of the private ground. The division flew that unit last year and they have been monitoring collared elk. They told us that some of those elk go as far as 75 miles south from Strawberry ridge when the lead starts flying. Some head west from Strawberry ridge and drop into Springville.

Again there is a heavier concentration where you mentioned but that doesn't mean that's only place on the unit that has concentrations of elk.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

That is just the larger problem of the Wasatch IMO. There is still also issues else where. Most of the others spots do have a chance to harvest where this spot is not likelly.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Here's the link to the deer/elk/antelope herd status and antler less tag recommendations.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meeting ... -04-04.pdf


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

They are seriously recommending doe tags for the Monroe??????

Good bye Cache North Rich antelope population.................


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> They are seriously recommending doe tags for the Monroe??????


Yeah that is a bit strange. They are listed as "draw" tags but it was my understanding that there would only be depredation and mitigation tags. Not sure what gives there.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

hunt#2008 Monroe/Plateau, Sevier Valley, Archery /muzzle load/ shotgun only, 100 permits 9/1-9/30


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



goofy elk said:


> 2008 Monroe/Plateau, Sevier Valley, Archery /muzzle load/ shotgun only , 100 permits 9/1-9/30


I was talking 2011. It was my understanding that in 2011 there would only be depredation or mitigation tags.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

That is for year 2011,,,,,,,HUNT # 2008


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Gotcha. That is strange but being a archery, muzzy, shotgun only hunt it must be around a populated area? I don't know. That one surprises me.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Ag deer.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

This is all the DWR's fault again. They need to teach deer not to eat or live on farming land. Since the DWR has failed to set of a Deer NO eating farms crops school then we are shooting the deer instead.

I mean how stupid is this. They need to teach the fawns when they are young instead of no fawn left behind which creates the problem when fawns like corn instead of sagebrush. :mrgreen:


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

The mitigation tags are listed seperate, look at the spread sheets. It appears to me that these are public tags, compare to areas like say cache that say no doe tags will be issued, but you will see that mitigation tags are going to be given every year due to crop loss, etc.

Last year a total of 300 Public Tags and 135 Mitigation tags for the monroe for a total of 435 doe harvest tags......this year they are saying 100 Public Tags and I am sure the mitigation tags will not decrease or at least stay over the 100 Mark.

Look Under *2011 ANTERLESS DEER PERMIT SUMMARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS*
http://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/info/2011-04-04.pdf

Yote, Tree, or bullsnot if you are seeing something else please show me :|


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

They are deer that need to be removed. The division doesn't simply issue doe tags for opportunity's sake. I personally would like 0 doe tags given out, but the fact remains there are population segments that need to be controlled, even on the Monroe. It comes down to money, and whether it be crop damage (Yes,they give out mitigation tags, but these are controlled by the landowner), high insurance costs due to vehicle damage etc.

A good example is the piece of property I handled on the cache last year. Hundreds of deer were pouring into (2) 80 acre partials every night, costing the landowner/lease holder thousands of dollars. In this specific area, deer concentrations were and are very high., while the rest of the Cache is under objective on all accounts. I'd assume the Monroe is very similar. The Monroe as a whole is struggling, but in certain areas, the deer densities and human conflict is high, creating a need for these hunts, otherwise they wouldn't exist.

I'd rather see the hunts in the draw than being sold for 3-500 bucks a voucher, wouldn't you?

If I'm missing your point, lemme know.

Also, if we want to compile a list of questions and actually get the reasoning from the division, I'd be more than happy to compile and submit them.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Yote, Tree, or bullsnot if you are seeing something else please show me :|


You're correct nbr...I just thought that that perhaps they had them miscategorized until goofy pointed out the hunt. In speaking with the regional supervisor in the southern region I thought I heard him say there wouldn't be any public doe tags. Only depredation and mitigation tags. Maybe I didn't hear him right. There have been several changes to these recommendations in just the last few weeks though and to be fair I got the disclaimer that these could change.

The reason makes sense....I was just surprised.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Another one that kinda surprised me is 1,465 cow permits on the South Slope, Unitas.


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## SLCMULEY (Mar 14, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Willl deer naturally spread themselves out? Once a small area has high concentrations will they remain there to their own demise?

The answer to these questions would tell us if it is possible to have a 0 doe harvest. 
If the deer will spread themselves out, then the state could initiate taller fencing projects around private agriculture plots, specifically the lands from which the complaining is coming from.

I would also like to see some studies done to improve mule deer transplant success rates.

just kinda thinking out loud here..


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Deer will not disperse until they start running out of food. In agricultural areas this can become a real problem because they will get as thick as flies and won't leave. Even with heavy pressure they will leave for a couple of days tops then they'll come right back. So in some areas doe tags make sense.

I too would like to see transplanting become a better option but the problem doesn't end once you let the deer out of the back of the trailer. Even if you can get a deer moved without killing it they often times die because they don't know much about their new home range. I've been told that it can be somewhat successful but the problem is there are only a few places that deer can be moved to and have a very high survival rate. Since they don't know where food, water, cover, and danger areas of their new range they often starve or fall prey to a predator.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

SLCM,,,,,,,Transplant info.

Deer page 12.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/wr/0712capture/0712capture.pdf


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

I guarantee you if deer were as rare as sheep or worth what sheep are worth transplants would work as good as the sheep transplants.


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## 10yearquest (Oct 15, 2009)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

+ 1 it seems like total bs. you can transplant all other big game in the state with good results but not deer. They must be really dumb!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

It's funny how we pick and choose about what to believe the Biologist.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

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goofy elk said:


> hunt#2008 Monroe/Plateau, Sevier Valley, Archery /muzzle load/ shotgun only, 100 permits 9/1-9/30


These doe hunts both mitigation and regular doe hunts are for Sevier Valley deer. Deer that live along the sevier river in the valley near the towns of Joseph, Elsinore, Annabella, andGlenwood among others. They are NOT mountain deer but resident deer. That is why the hunt is held in September and not later...to keep from shooting mountain does.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Thanks for the explanation.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Makes sense w2u.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Maybe all my hate mail finally got somewhere with biologists about the cache moose herd :shock: .........about time they cut the tags, to bad it wasn't a few years ago before the herd was destroyed.......


I don't know where you're seeing a problem in the Cache... I have watched and helped multiple hunters take mid 40's bulls (all with at minimum double brows and 8pts per side) and we have filmed a couple over 50" over the past 4-5 years and we pass on a lot of bulls every year. I agree overall the moose numbers could use a break, but it is more than just cutting pressure from hunters.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

The recommendation to cut permits is coming from the Division. I see some really good bulls every year also, however the overall number of moose has really dropped. I guess I'll never understand the take take take until it is gone mentality of this site?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



Muley73 said:


> I guess I'll never understand the take take take until it is gone mentality of this site?


I don't think you've taken the time to try and understand what the mentality you refer to really is. You have contorted that message into something that it isn't.

On the flip side I completely understand the more, more, more side of things. I understand the desire for better quality. I also understand that our wildlife face some real challenges that are far more complex than can be fixed by simply cutting tags.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



Muley73 said:


> The recommendation to cut permits is coming from the Division. I see some really good bulls every year also, however the overall number of moose has really dropped. I guess I'll never understand the take take take until it is gone mentality of this site?


You are absolutely right. As far as deer are concerned, they are recommending tag cuts to reach a buck to doe ratio mandated by the WB. Over and over again Anis, Jim and co. have stated that this will do nothing for herd numbers. So spin how you'd like, but the division isn't recommending these cuts based on biological validity, they are simply doing what they were told to do by the WB to reach a buck objective, NOTHING MORE.

Speaking for myself, I'd quit hunting muleys altogether if credible sources were proposing that it would bring deer numbers back. It's not about take, take, take. It's about giving when there is not much potential upside to deer recovery. If you've got proof that says otherwise, post it up, pardner.

So, may we speculate that when it comes to people that study deer on a constant basis that your mantra is IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE?

Based on results I'd say it's a very accurate assumption.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

What if the deer herd in Utah is at range capacity? Thats what I hear all the time when making an argument for predator reduction. Forget objective. When a herd like Monroe is hovering around 7500 yr after yr. Capacity is the answer that comes from the DWR. So if a unit is at capacity whats wrong with a higher Buck doe ratio? Seems it would serve the hunter. Thats only 600 buck post hunt.

If anything wouldn't it make biological sense to breed the doe as early as possible. I would figure the quickest way to have that done would be more bucks to breed them. I also believe a mature buck is more efficient and skilled at the task. Wouldn't this also aid in fawn survival rates.

I also hear about 15 buck per doe being more than sufficient. There is a few what if's in that for me. Sufficient to get them breed out by when? November December January? And what are the timing effect when 13 of those 15 buck are 2pt and spike? I have personally watched doe reject a 2pts overtures time and time over. And then seen the same doe give it up first time to a 4pt. And what kind of shape is a mature buck in after he gets to breed so many doe? And has a rut nearly 3 months long. I'd figure he was one tired dude. Or maybe he looses interest sooner or later. Then isn't that a doe or doe's go through the winter dry? What of the 2pt in this I'm convinced he spends more energy to breed a doe. Statistically he's to breed 5.6 doe at 15/100 B per D. What kind if shape is he going into winter with that kind of unnatural behavior? I say unnatural because if all left alone mother nature seems to prefer her buck doe ratio up into the 40/100 range. In those conditions few 2pts get to do the breeding.

Don't get me started on Monroe's 8/100 BD ratio and the potential effects of that. LE is exactly what that unit needs.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Iron bear, How do you manage to be spot on with MOST deer issues,

BUT some were around Jupiter when it comes to Lion's???

I mean really, you understand deer but NOT cats.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Goofy, I understand that lions eat deer because lions aren't vegans. I also know for a fact that a male lion will kill a deer and when he's roaming his territory looking for females then he isn't going to go back 10 miles to his dead deer to feed again. He will just simply kill another deer when he's hungry.

Lions do affect the deer population more than you know Goofy, but of course you will say otherwise because you make money chasing cats.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Guess what yote,,,WRONG AGAIN...

Didn't take one dime in hunting lions this year.

Might just retire from the lion game it sucks so bad right now.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

A lot of others houndmen seem to still have success, but you want fewer lions killed because you want more to chase because you think the lion population is way down.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Red Creek outfitters who guides lions even said that there is still a very healthy population of lions. The owner is a great guy and probably one of the top two houndsmen in this state. I would believe him over you goofy.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Yote you always stirren for a fight? Most of the houndsman around here report that the population is down. So I would say thats 4 houndsman to 1 outfitter.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Well yote,,,The stats DONT LIE!

Wait and see if this years TOTAL lions harvested isn't a 20 year low...

And Average age harvested doesn't drop again on lions.........

SURE, the snot nosed kids are still kill"in young cats,,,,,Young females mostly..

NOT ME!

Young deer either,,,,,,,,,TWO points are for young kids and beginners only.
NOT IN MY TREE.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Nope just calling him out on his BS. You started a fight from the first day you started on the forum. You also started a thread about bashing the DWR about the bear dens.

I know a lot of houndmens and they are having a good time chasing cats around here.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Yep and I will bash and bash them for letting this event even take place this time of year.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



goofy elk said:


> Well yote,,,The stats DONT LIE!
> 
> Wait and see if this years TOTAL lions harvested isn't a 20 year low...
> 
> ...


Goofy, if the DWR started the harvest objective season earlier than 3/07/2011 then more lions would have been killed.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



Iron Bear said:


> Don't get me started on Monroe's 8/100 BD ratio and the potential effects of that. LE is exactly what that unit needs.


I agree! Though my experiences with houndsmen lately are in line with what goofy has eluded to. Sure, I get that they have a reason to believe and state that populations are low, but no different than a deer guy stating the contrary.

The one thing that no one is mentioning is getting these units back after the buck to doe ratio and population (Yeah, that was a joke) comes back up.

***Take a guess what the buck to doe ratio must get to before a unit will be considered to be turned back into general season unit under the new plan. :idea: :?:

Also, do you think once the Monroe is limited entry that the people who _love_ the monroe are going to let them turn it back into a general unit? Ask the people who showed up at the NE RAC tonight and demanded that they cut tags on the book cliffs! Up goes the age objective, down go the tag allotments and it will remain LE.... Forever.

Yes, the Monroe is struggling! *Cut the hell out of the tags on the stansbury, monroe and Bonanza and any other units that are below the accepted 15/100 buck to doe ratio*(Most biologists I have spoke with say that this number is pulled out of the air as well and that 7 is sufficient, if we are talking biologically. What makes a hunter happy is a different story), but on the flip side under unit management, they should be issuing a **** load of tags on the SW desert (29 b2d), Nine mile (25 b2d), San Juan General season (22 b2d) and Zion (25 b2d). You think it will happen? Nope, cause there's too much money to be made the minute 5% of the tags from a unit that used to be general season turns LE.

Wake up folks. The statewide deer population trend is on it's way up but somehow we are being sold on a disaster. Are there a handful of units that get pounded every year where drastic tag cuts would be wise? Yes, and there will continue to be for the rest of time. You are being spoon fed doom and gloom by people with an agenda and when it comes to fruition, there's gonna be a whole lot of unhappy campers, literally, becasue the majority of us are going to be camping instead of hunting. Not due to animal shortages, but to a philosophy that is held by a small portion of hunters and BUSINESSMEN in our state that see no shame in diminishing our heritage for dollars and ego serving racks on their walls..


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



coyoteslayer said:


> A lot of others houndmen seem to still have success, but you want fewer lions killed because you want more to chase because you think the lion population is way down.


as much as i hate to agree with CS, hes right. you cant have both high numbers in cats and deer at the same time. you want both. in one threaqd you are disappointed at the low deer numbers, then the next you are saying there are no more cats left, when a majority of the guys out there will say there are too many. i know that there is suppose to be a balance in things, but with the way life works, you cant have alot of deer living in the same area with alot of cats. im not expert lion hunter, nor have i ever killed one, but ive seen enough in the last few years while i was hiking around hunting deer to know that the population is way above what it has been in the past. i wouldnt be one bit disappointed or sad if every cat in utah got wiped out. i would way rather see large numbers of deer, then a few here and there.

they can try all the deer management plans they want to, but you arent going to get the results everyone is looking for until they go after the predators with everything they have.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Yote ,,,,every year for 10 years now they have opened NEW HO , Harvest units.

Slowly , but surly, slamming lions off the map in Utah trying to appease deer hunters
that blame lions for NO DEER...........................................WTF?

I'm going to fight for what is right.......PERIOD.

Whats right , is right, and whats wrong is wrong............PERIOD again.

And I'm now were close to done with this fight.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



> ive seen enough in the last few years while i was hiking around hunting deer to know that the population is way above what it has been in the past


I have seen a lot too. I remember hunting coyotes in Goshen Canyon and calling in a mountain lion. This lions was a 7 foot tom. He trotted off a little ways and stopped right by a road so we drove up the road by him and he just trotted up the road in front of us and crossed the creek and when up on the hillside and sat down 50 yds away. A sheriff officer came and he wished he had a tag. We watched him for a little bit until he walked off.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



> Yote ,,,,every year for 10 years now they have opened NEW HO , Harvest units.
> 
> Slowly , but surly, slamming lions off the map in Utah trying to appease deer hunters
> that blame lions for NO DEER...........................................WTF?
> ...


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

:shock: i wasnt aware you needed a tag to kill cats in goshen canyon...  :O•-: theres cats that live on west mountain. every year theres 2 or 3 sheep that get killed in the fields at the base of it. theres getting to be more and more around, and they are losing their fear of man..... -)O(-


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



> i wasnt aware you needed a tag to kill cats in goshen canyon... theres cats that live on west mountain. every year theres 2 or 3 sheep that get killed in the fields at the base of it. theres getting to be more and more around, and they are losing their fear of man.....


Very true, two orchard farmers have seen mountain lions in the orchards twice this year. One was pretty good size which was by the canal. The other came around by the packing shed.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Kill_em,,,As much as I do respect what you have done hunting..

AND YES ,, you will see lions,,,,,,and have encounters the more time you spend.

The lion numbers are not up as you claim.

I cant imagine what you would be seeing if I ,,and 2 other guides,, hadn't done 
what we did the last 10 years on Nebo!!!

DUDE,,,I've personally seen 25 cats hit the ground on that unit alone in recent years..

WHERE DO WE draw the line?


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

CS ive never personally seen them on that mountain, but i have cut their tracks in the snow and dirt before while hunting chuckars or riding ATVs... my neighbor lost 2 sheep last december. the sheriff tried to blame it on a dog.... that wasnt done by any dog, it was a lion.

goofy, im sure you have saved alot of lives of deer and elk from killing cats. maybe where i tend to hunt just has a more concentrated population of cats right now and in the past few years. if it were up to me, i would have lion tags be OTC. it wont kill all the lions. it would leave enough of them around to keep a healthy population, but it would definetly eliminate some of the excess ones.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



goofy elk said:


> Whats right , is right, and whats wrong is wrong............PERIOD again.
> 
> And I'm now were close to done with this fight.


No attack on you personally Goofy.

Most people will say these words and never admit to being wrong for a single thing. We all read about it all too often. What's right is right true, but, right will change in the blink of an eye and you have to adapt to it. Option 2 is not right (at least not for the reasons it is being pushed and sold to the public) no matter if you like it or don't like it.

The problem we will see in a few years is that nobody that pushed or supported opt 2 and the reduction of tags for fawn bearing bucks will admit they were wrong even after it fails. Proving that most people don't accept that what's right is right if it means being wrong.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



kill_'em_all said:


> CS ive never personally seen them on that mountain, but i have cut their tracks in the snow and dirt before while hunting chuckars or riding ATVs... my neighbor lost 2 sheep last december. the sheriff tried to blame it on a dog.... that wasnt done by any dog, it was a lion.
> 
> goofy, im sure you have saved alot of lives of deer and elk from killing cats. maybe where i tend to hunt just has a more concentrated population of cats right now and in the past few years. if it were up to me, i would have lion tags be OTC. it wont kill all the lions. it would leave enough of them around to keep a healthy population, but it would definetly eliminate some of the excess ones.


Kill_em ,,,lion HO tag are over the counter,,,,,,Nebo both units....Jezzzus.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

i understand that. but they put the HO hunts during the worst time of the year to hunt them. do away with the draw, the season needs to be from oct. 1-may 15.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

I have to chime in here and give my weird perspective-

I love hunting cats (especially the killing part), I have been lucky enough to kill a few and have been chasing them fairly often over the years. Great times and beats the hell out of watching the snow fly from my couch.

I personally hate lions, as mule deer to me are everything............

But there is interesting BIOLOGICAL data that should be considered when killing/harvesting lions. It is FACT that lions will regulate themselves to a point, Mature Toms are aggressive, and will kill/weed out other lions. In my hound dog experience I have never witnessed a mature tom along with smaller toms working similar areas, ever, near females but never near young toms........but I have witnessed young cats hanging around each other in the same drainage, for days and days decimating the deer herd in that drainage. The good thing about mature toms, they like to roam, and rarely stay in the same spot......

Before the OTC harvest objective tags, there was a fair amount of lions IMO, after that first few years, the lion population EXPLODED for a few years and we treed and killed cat after cat, sometimes two a day, then we started noticing no more full grown toms, and every year since, less and less. The past few years has been brutal on the Cache, there are VERY few lions left (I really quite enjoy it, honestly)

..................but show me someone that says the population of lions has increased on the cache, and I will show you a liar or someone that doesn't really know what they are talking about.

The one thing I have noticed over the years staring at the snow looking for tracks is the increase in coyotes.......they have increased, year after year IMO..........I often wonder if they are not just taking the place of the cats.........

The other funny thing I see is so called "experts" that couldn't tell a lion track from a coyote track in the snow if there life depended on it........I laugh at all the times we would be flagged down and told there is a lion track somewhere to go and investigate and find a coyote track.......Its my opinion that the vast majority of the "lion track" spotters are mostly seeing coyotes, hell I will even admit that every once in awhile they make me slam on the brakes and fool me for a minute.....

Carry on gents, it looks like a fun one o-||


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Ho open up earlier next year.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Madhunter,,I respect your views as well..

ALL I'VE said the whole time is,,,,,,,,IMHO opt 2 will help.
Along with everything else being done.

Its so much easier to apply everything on a UNIT basis....period again.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> I have to chime in here and give my weird perspective-
> 
> I love hunting cats (especially the killing part), I have been lucky enough to kill a few and have been chasing them fairly often over the years. Great times and beats the hell out of watching the snow fly from my couch.
> 
> ...


I'm sure all involved would prefer you to take you logic elsewhere.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



> I cant imagine what you would be seeing if I ,,and 2 other guides,, hadn't done
> what we did the last 10 years on Nebo!!!


Now now not just you and only two other guides. I believe the Leifsons, Tony Bettis and crew, Issacson, Hunters, Fords, the guy who has the bird farm in Nephi, and myself have put the smack down on the lions on the Nebo in the last 10 years.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



Treehugnhuntr said:


> I'm sure all involved would prefer you to take you logic elsewhere.


In that case, I will stay around


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

You know what nrl_brn,,,,,,

We need to hook up and BS in camp some day....

Serious, your welcome in my camp any day.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



> But there is interesting BIOLOGICAL data that should be considered when killing/harvesting lions. It is FACT that lions will regulate themselves to a point, Mature Toms are aggressive, and will kill/weed out other lions. In my hound dog experience I have never witnessed a mature tom along with smaller toms working similar areas, ever, near females but never near young toms........but I have witnessed young cats hanging around each other in the same drainage, for days and days decimating the deer herd in that drainage. The good thing about mature toms, they like to roam, and rarely stay in the same spot......


True, male lions will kill the kittens of any female lion that he comes around because then she will mate again.



> The other funny thing I see is so called "experts" that couldn't tell a lion track from a coyote track in the snow if there life depended on it........I laugh at all the times we would be flagged down and told there is a lion track somewhere to go and investigate and find a coyote track.......Its my opinion that the vast majority of the "lion track" spotters are mostly seeing coyotes, hell I will even admit that every once in awhile they make me slam on the brakes and fool me for a minute.....


This makes me laugh because I remember guys doing the same thing when I was chasing lions. I told them I will show them what a lion tracks looks like. I remember them saying that's a much bigger track.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Yote ,,,,Once again , I know Tony.

Makes me wounder were YOUR at.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



goofy elk said:


> Yote ,,,,Once again , I know Tony.
> 
> Makes me wounder were YOUR at.


I'm your neighbor Goof


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

Mentality dude...


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



goofy elk said:


> Mentality dude...


 -_O- -_O- -_O- -_O- I think you better ask yourself this question first Randy because your way out in left field on most topics.

Here are three easy ones.

3 point or better
Option 2
Lions


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

DUDE,,,,,The fat lady is HUMMMING.....


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



> DUDE,,,,,The fat lady is HUMMMING.....


Dont tell me you went and knocked on her door haha. She broke the last toilet she sat on.

Your private life is none of my business anyways.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Before the OTC harvest objective tags, there was a fair amount of lions IMO, after that first few years, the lion population EXPLODED for a few years and we treed and killed cat after cat, sometimes two a day, then we started noticing no more full grown toms, and every year since, less and less. The past few years has been brutal on the Cache, there are VERY few lions left (I really quite enjoy it, honestly)
> 
> ..................but show me someone that says the population of lions has increased on the cache, and I will show you a liar or someone that doesn't really know what they are talking about.


This has to be one of the reasons the cash has seen an increase in deer numbers this year... Good job cash lion hunters shoot some for me. I know when they killed 30 pluss lions off Mt timpanogos a few years ago the deer population went way up. The bucks to doe ratio also went way up.

To me all I have to do is look at the cat Le units. The units that are the hardest to draw meaning they take the most points to draw are the same units as our general deer units. Go figure! B&C cats and low buck to doe ratios. This one is for goofy 2+2=7 right?

I like how on roughing it outdoors one cougar/bear guide says the cat/bear numbers are through the roof and he doesn't have a problem finding them. Then you have the president of the houndsman say there isnt any cats/bears. LOL

If I were looking for a lion/bear guide I wouldn't go with a guide that has a hard time finding cats/bears.

Guess what the lion guide I hired said? No kill no pay. He also guaranteed me a cat. Guess what it also only took one day on one of the worst units in Utah to kill a tom lion. If you look at the data. I should have ate tag soup! I was high point holder with 2 pts. now I wish I was on a unit that has 7 points or higher. I prolly would have seen some monster cats. On the down side I wouldnt have seen very many deer. -)O(-


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure all involved would prefer you to take you logic elsewhere.
> ...


Travis, you're clear that I agree and was being sarcastic, yeah? Good points.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



Treehugnhuntr said:


> ntrl_brn_rebel said:
> 
> 
> > Treehugnhuntr said:
> ...


Yeah buddy...... :mrgreen:


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> But there is interesting BIOLOGICAL data that should be considered when killing/harvesting lions. It is FACT that lions will regulate themselves to a point, Mature Toms are aggressive, and will kill/weed out other lions. In my hound dog experience I have never witnessed a mature tom along with smaller toms working similar areas, ever, near females but never near young toms........but I have witnessed young cats hanging around each other in the same drainage, for days and days decimating the deer herd in that drainage. The good thing about mature toms, they like to roam, and rarely stay in the same spot......


NBR touches on some good points here.

90% of my posts are rants about cougar. I make a post that doesn't mention one thing about lions and we get 2 pages about cougar after that. :lol:

I recently seen a documentary on cougar attacks on Vancouver Island. After much research biologists on that island have concluded. The reason for the extraordinary number of cougars attacking humans is due to 1rst lack of natural prey (deer) 2nd interesting fact is most of the attacks were executed by young male cats. In part they don't get to establish there own territory for the reasons NBR points out. Also they are inefficient and inexperienced and don't have a fear of humans. They are hungry and are willing to try just about anything out for a meal.

This got me thinking about solutions and better ways to manage cougar. Maybe this would be a good compromise to help deer and also give houndsman B&C toms.

I have a hunch that one big tom covering 3 canyons is better for deer than 6 juveniles in the same area. So why not target females and juveniles and put restrictions on mature tom harvest? With a lower population of females we would get a better handle on overall cougar populations. Control cougar population growth once reduced more easily. And still have big toms for the houndsman to chase and harvest. This may also do something to counter act predator vacuums.

Tree you mentioned you have heard from biologist that 7/100 is a sufficient biologically for a healthy herd. Isn't Monroe and Stansbury two examples that may not be true? The fawn survival rate and fawn per 100 doe on those two units is sub par. When that kind of assertion is made are they considering all the variables? Like the ones I mention in my original post on the matter. I whole heartedly believe 7 mature bucks breed better than 7 2pt bucks. So it may be a valid statement if you figure those 7 buck are mature. But the only units that have those numbers of mature buck are LE units.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*



Iron Bear said:


> I whole heartedly believe 7 mature bucks breed better than 7 2pt bucks. So it may be a valid statement if you figure those 7 buck are mature. But the only units that have those numbers of mature buck are LE units.


Sure, and I think I agree. But if a pot load of mature bucks is the answer, why do the LE units that have these animals to breed does as you have suggested, continue to struggle along side the rest of the state?

We have been asking various biologists from the DWR and independent, about the mature buck thing and for the most part, the answer has been that range conditions are much more important than how old the bucks are that are doing the breeding. There are a few biologists who speculate that more mature bucks are better for getting all does bred, but none that will come out and say it on record and even at that, unbred does isn't the issue..

I don't have any reason to sway one way or another. If the consensus among deer biologists was that we need 40 mature bucks per 100 does to maximize fawn recruitment and herd size, I'd push for whatever made sense to reach that goal. I just haven't had any feedback that suggests that having a large mature buck population is the answer.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

*Re: 15,000 spike elk,,fewer general deer permits..2011 numbe*

We've got to get it in our heads that females are the key to herd health. Range conditions have a lot to do with female health. If range conditions are poor and females aren't healthy then they won't come into estrus on time regardless of how many mature studs are hanging around.

The one thing that we haven't even talked about is that like other species, when deer herds get way below carrying capacity, they tend to have more twins and triplets.

Anybody know what "flushing" is? Right before pigs go into heat, and in the thrid trimester of pregnancy, they are given a ton of vitamins. This makes them stronger, more fertile, overall better conditions before breeding. Deer go through something similar but in the natural world and range conditions can effect that.

The more I learn the more I realize females are really the key.


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