# Good Pedigrees/genetics - do they really matter?



## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

Once in a while I hear conversations or get told from someone that they don't care about pedigrees/lines or health clearances because "all they want is a hunting dog". Just staying with the pedigree or genetics side of things, I feel strongly that getting a pup from proven lines with definitive history of performance success surely makes a difference and stacks the cards in your favor. (sure there are exceptions).

Take the below example of an 8 week old puppy doing a straight forward but big retrieve for a young pup like this. It was about 45 paces long retrieving a paint roller. I have done no real training at this age to "teach or train" this pup to retrieve other than playing around a few times with dummy/roller to get her excited. Nothing of any significance for sure - just fun puppy stuff. For a pup to do a little retrieve like this, it is just pure genetics and instincts that have been passed on, nothing else. I see stuff like this and it reminds me of why I am such a pedigree nerd and study and follow the serious performance retrievers.

Hopefully this link works. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXh1Z6kO ... ontext-cha


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## Steve Shaver (Mar 9, 2008)

Re: Good Pedigrees/genetics - do they really matter?

by labradawg on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:23 pm 

As I have already told you T she is a keeper, nice little pup!
Now to your question. Does it matter? Heel yes it does. Yes there are always exceptions, incredibly well bred duds and incredibly talented no pedigree mutts but I have worked with enough dogs to see a huge difference in a well bred pup. It's not just their retrieving talent but their whole attitude. BUT. Well bred isnt just a good pedigree. It takes a conscientious breeder that does his or her home work to put a good pair together. Just because two dogs have great pedigrees doesnt mean they will make great pups together. I have seen dogs with pretty decent pedigrees that are total crackheads just because the breeder went by pedigree alone. You need to enhance the strong and suppress the weak points. No stud is right for every bitch and vice versa.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Steve Shaver said:


> Re: Good Pedigrees/genetics - do they really matter?
> 
> by labradawg on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:23 pm
> 
> ...


Amen....


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

tshuntin said:


> Once in a while I hear conversations or get told from someone that they don't care about pedigrees/lines or health clearances because "all they want is a hunting dog". Just staying with the pedigree or genetics side of things, I feel strongly that getting a pup from proven lines with definitive history of performance success surely makes a difference and stacks the cards in your favor. (sure there are exceptions).
> 
> Take the below example of an 8 week old puppy doing a straight forward but big retrieve for a young pup like this. It was about 45 paces long retrieving a paint roller. I have done no real training at this age to "teach or train" this pup to retrieve other than playing around a few times with dummy/roller to get her excited. Nothing of any significance for sure - just fun puppy stuff. For a pup to do a little retrieve like this, it is just pure genetics and instincts that have been passed on, nothing else. I see stuff like this and it reminds me of why I am such a pedigree nerd and study and follow the serious performance retrievers.
> 
> ...


One question... is/are all the siblings the same way? That to me is just as important or even more-so. Taking a litter of say 10 pups and only your pup is a steller pup and the other 9 cant even make 3 ft retrieve. WOuld that be a measure of good breeding?


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> Taking a litter of say 10 pups and only your pup is a steller pup and the other 9 cant even make 3 ft retrieve.


Sounds like just about any litter of English Pointers...  :mrgreen:


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

As mentioned above, I have seen some from pro lines that were absolute duds that were quite expensive. On the other hand, I had a mut that was one of our better dogs of a lifetime. This one sure looks like a keeper.


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm am certainly a believer. I have spent countless hours learning about setter lines and the different types of trials. I like to buy dogs out of trial lines with good confirmation. Sure you can still get a dud, but I think you strongly stack the odds in your favor. Setters like labs are a diverse breed with many differant strains. You can find them from 30- 75lbs, from dogs that naturally range right in front of you to all age ground gobbling monsters. Some point flat tailed some point with a 12 o'clock tail. You had better know a little bit just to get what you want. I had a setter recently that had some really bad confirmation. She beat up her feet constantly she ran hard and found birds but she was always hurt the next day some times the same day. She had spinal problems and died at 8 about two months ago. Had I known then what I know now I would not have bought her. The pup I bought to replace her comes from hip certified parents out of bloodlines that I am familiar with and are known to have produced some great dogs. Both parent dogs have smooth long strides and look like the glide when they run. Their feet are good and tight. their pelvic bones and shoulders are in the position I have been told they should be. I have done everything I can to stack the odds. I am confident that she will work out to be a fine gun dog and hopefully a strong trial dog. I don't know much about labs but it seems like a lot of the same would apply.
My rambling .02


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

What Bret just said...

I've owned several mutts and several pure bred animals. By FAR the best dogs have been the pure bred animals. Now that's not to say some of the mutts weren't good honest bird dogs, they were, and at the time I thought they were the bees knees. I just didn't know what I was missing until I bought my first "real" bird dog. Boy did I have my eyes opened up! The mutts were OK, but they didn't hold a candle to any of the pure bred dogs for natural ability, nose, drive, and trainability. You just get what you pay for... Usually.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Good pedigrees and health clearances are important. Too many backyard breeders and puppy mills looking to make a fast buck. Do the homework when searching for your hunting pal, or family pet for that matter. It's tough when you get attached to your dog and only have them around for a few years because their health is genetically coded to fail. It's especially tough for your kids when this happens and you have to put down their best friend. Just do your homework and purchase from reputable breeders that are working to achieve the best possible dogs in their breedings.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

TAK said:


> One question... is/are all the siblings the same way? That to me is just as important or even more-so. Taking a litter of say 10 pups and only your pup is a steller pup and the other 9 cant even make 3 ft retrieve. WOuld that be a measure of good breeding?


This is a very good point.....a good breeding cant be based on one or two dogs but the whole litter and even all the repeat litters out of a particular breeding. The problem is with dogs is they are sold as 7 week old pups and the breeder almost never gets to work with the dogs, train the dogs, and get to truly evaluate the dogs for a long period of time as adults to see if the breeding "worked" or not and typically has to base his/her judgment on maybe 1 or 2 pups they kept from the litter they thought were the standouts at 7 weeks old. Interestingly enough, I currently have the opportunity to train 4 out of 7 pups i had 2 years ago. It has really told me things i didnt know back when the pups were 7 weeks old and it has told me more about the parents and what traits they carry and throw. I wish i could work with the other 3 to get an even better picture of the breeding. A good breeding is more than just producing one great pup but the problem is it is very rare to actually get opportunity to truly evaluate the pups when they get older.


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## Steve Shaver (Mar 9, 2008)

Also one mans junk is another mans treasure. I have trained dogs that I thought were pretty poor specimens but their owners thought they were the best dogs they ever had.
For what I want out of a dog there my very well only be one or two in the litter that will live up to my expectations but that doesnt mean they wont make a very fine dog for someone else


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## birdboy (Sep 11, 2007)

TAK said:


> One question... is/are all the siblings the same way? That to me is just as important or even more-so. Taking a litter of say 10 pups and only your pup is a steller pup and the other 9 cant even make 3 ft retrieve. WOuld that be a measure of good breeding?


How's this TAK? This is her littermate... still no name but she is all geaux! We are real excited about these little gals  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkPJ6poZ ... afe=active


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

This is the breeding program that out of philosophy seems the best of any I have read. Again I am all about setters, but what do you guys think of this? 
http://www.settersunlimited.com/info.aspx?a=1&b=12&c=5


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## Tpkgsp (Jul 17, 2012)

Genetics are extremely important if you are trying for consistency in your pups. I like to see production out of the first three gerenations and then if there are more winners behind them even better. I also like to have one of the greats in the top and bottom sides. That's how you get the litters where the fifth pick may turn out as good or better than the first pick.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Man, Labradogs is a good guy. 

I have nothing to contribute to this thread other than that


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

birdboy said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> > One question... is/are all the siblings the same way? That to me is just as important or even more-so. Taking a litter of say 10 pups and only your pup is a steller pup and the other 9 cant even make 3 ft retrieve. WOuld that be a measure of good breeding?
> ...


My guess it is a good litter.... But understand when I say this it is not a cut of any sort. A good pup is just that. It is the finished product that really is what counts. This really comes into play when the pup is a dog and maybe 2 or 3 years old, having to do more things and at a higher level. I have raised a few GSP and Brit litters and I try my best to pick the pup that is going to be the next best thing since toothpaste in a tube! I have multiple times kept two pups from a litter. Both seemed to be good quility dogs, but each time there is one better than the other. Now I think that is cuttin hairs beacause as it was said my chunk of coal is someones diamond.

Now with that said this is my opinion... Finding a well breed pup and putting the time and effort into them is really the true key. I think that just about any pup can be trained to the highest level. Notice I said just about! The same holds true that you can give the worlds best pup top someone and it will not amount to more than a yard dog bitting people!


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Bret I like it... But I focus on one word.... Kennel blindness. Some may think it is in referance to what breed. I see it is the same breed but the dogs selected. It is hard to think that you may have this high dollar, high class dog and you think the world of it but when you have other eyes look at it you really don't have a thing. (not saying about your dogs talking general here)
Bob ELHEW Wehle is famous about this and also called hitler for it. he wanted the very best. So he CULLED ruthlessly. Some may not understand what culling is... That means if the entire litter did not meet the grade, they did not see the golden years. One could say that if we are not culling when needed that we are all just back yard breeders(love that term, my dogs hump all day in the back yard!) I do believe that because of some that did or do practice this makes it that much easier for use to find better genetics, better dogs all around.



Bret said:


> This is the breeding program that out of philosophy seems the best of any I have read. Again I am all about setters, but what do you guys think of this?
> http://www.settersunlimited.com/info.aspx?a=1&b=12&c=5


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

That is the thing. I sit and think about how many dogs I really have experience with and it isn't that many. Maybe I have worked with 25 dogs of different breeds, mostly of my dads or friends who have needed help. So for me to think my dogs are "the best" would be naive at best. The Berg Brothers have resources most will not have. I don't even own one of their pups, but I believe Rich's Zoey Came from that kennel.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

This can get twisted in many ways but that is one of the reasons I like to look at the peds of dogs that are trialed/tested. There is grundles of class dogs that are not. That is not what I am saying but those that choose to do so are getting a very good opinion from more than one blinded person.

Zoe is from the Berg Bros... I have spoke to them before also when I had almost to get a Red Setter.... I was one male pup away!!! I was 4th pick and there was only 3!



Bret said:


> That is the thing. I sit and think about how many dogs I really have experience with and it isn't that many. Maybe I have worked with 25 dogs of different breeds, mostly of my dads or friends who have needed help. So for me to think my dogs are "the best" would be naive at best. The Berg Brothers have resources most will not have. I don't even own one of their pups, but I believe Rich's Zoey Came from that kennel.


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## Bret (Sep 7, 2007)

They have some great looking red setters for sure. It is a shame you didn't get one. I would like to try one some day. Maybe I will get bored with the English.


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## TAK (Sep 9, 2007)

Bret said:


> They have some great looking red setters for sure. It is a shame you didn't get one. I would like to try one some day. Maybe I will get bored with the English.


I like any good dog, long tail or not....

The red setter is an example of poor breeding. It use to be Irish, but those that like the looks over everything else bred them from great to trash, to trash! They had to go and get some great setter blood and throw in as many good Irish bitchs to get back some hunt. But they could not call them a Irish anymore. The only good thing that the AKC did was open up the reg. to this for 10 years....

I have seen a few. One that really caught my eye was in Colorado at a horse back trial. She was all red but had a big white blaze on her chest and a couple of white toes....

That and there is no NSTRA champion red setters!!!!!


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## MJ73 (Aug 19, 2012)

Red Setter= Dr. Roger Boser.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

Steve Shaver said:


> Re: Good Pedigrees/genetics - do they really matter?
> 
> by labradawg on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:23 pm
> 
> ...


I agree that instinct and attitude are passed down with good genetics, but I think you get a little too scientific with it. Mix two dogs with a good pedigree and you will most likely have some good pups, you can only predict that to a certain extent because each dog has its own personality. No matter how well you try to match up two dogs with awesome pedigrees there can always be a misfit or two. There is absolutely no way to fully predict how two bloodlines will mix, there are just WAY too many factors that come into play as far as the puppies development before birth.


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## Steve Shaver (Mar 9, 2008)

Steve Shaver said:


> Re: Good Pedigrees/genetics - do they really matter?
> 
> by labradawg on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:23 pm
> 
> ...


I agree that instinct and attitude are passed down with good genetics, but I think you get a little too scientific with it.
*Too Scientific? Not at all.* 
Mix two dogs with a good pedigree and you will most likely have some good pups, you can only predict that to a certain extent because each dog has its own personality. 
*If this is true why not take it a step further to try and avoid bad traits or cultivate good ones. I would in no way shape or form breed a female that is an noisey yapping barker to a male with the same issue for example* 
No matter how well you try to match up two dogs with awesome pedigrees there can always be a misfit or two. There is absolutely no way to fully predict how two bloodlines will mix, there are just WAY too many factors that come into play as far as the puppies development before birth.
*Totally agree but again why not do everything we can to avaid or cultivate?*/quote]


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