# Bucks, Bulls, & OIL The success and failures?



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Well with each of these where has the DWR in Utah had success and failure.

With bucks for me they are succeeding because they finally changed there plan to a unit by unit basis of how to manage the deer herds in Utah. It was a good change to make. I think this will greatly benefit many units in the state. 

One failure with deer is I would like to see extended archery areas done away with and I feel that no doe tags should be issued in the state except depredation tags and they should be limited. Many land owners over-exagerate with what deer and elk are doing to there property. More care should be taken when issuing depredation tags for deer elk or anything. I complain about the thousands of cattle on the mountains but I'm never issued a tag to kill one of them just because there there.If the deer and elk have to share there turf with farmers during the summer then the farmers can stick it up there ass and share there turf with the deer and elk during the winter and early spring.

With elk the biggest failure I see is spike tags and they have seriously destroyed the quality of elk we wait 10-20 years to hunt. More unique management on spike hunts and higher objectives to avoid killing so many cows need to be done to increase populations and quality.

The biggest success I see is they are reaching most objectives on elk and this is a reason I believe they could be raised.

One in a lifetime failure has probably been the Moose. Decline in population failure to establish a herd on the Fishlake unit. Predator (cougar) management was the cause of that.

Biggest success with OIL I'm not sure on I mainly look at bulls and bucks.


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

Objectives for elk are not set by the DWR, good luck getting that raised.


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## Mr.CheddarNut (Jan 16, 2013)

Dont chastise me too heavlily for this question, but..................what is an OIL tag? What does it stand for?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

One In a Lifetime.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

One-eye, You forgot to shorten the archery seasons to 10 days, double or triple the number of LE units, increase the number of Conservation and Convention permits, add a 21 to 25 buck to doe ratio tier, stop the female goat, antelope and bison hunts, require full payment for permits up front, antler restrictions (3 or 4 point or better) on half of the General Season deer units, increase permit fees by $20 to kill more coyotes and to pay off those dishonest farmers and ranchers for depredation, eliminate more deer tags for safety reasons and break up the state into even smaller units so we can control the tags/hunters even more.

Or do those things come later, after we get what you want now?


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

EFA,
Don't agree with your entire list but you've got some good ideas for sure! Now lets run with them and make some changes!


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Where do I start with this ignorant and uninformed post

Moose do not do well south of a certain latitude. Its a temperature thing. So its not a failure on the dwr.

Spike hunts have not killed the quality. Thats a moronic statment. The only thing that kills quality is not letting bulls reach a certain age and their own genitic potential. You can't stock pile bulls and kill cows to keep herds under or at objective. Not the divisions fault.

Cows are only hunted to keep herds at objective

There are only doe hunts where there are depredation issues. 

The extended hunts are a success in this state for henry qality bucks and over the counter tags with 4 month seasons. There should be more not less. If you weren't such a poser you could pick up a bow and give them a try.

I'm done with this uneducated post.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

> Where do I start with this ignorant and uninformed post
> 
> Moose do not do well south of a certain latitude. Its a temperature thing. So its not a failure on the dwr.
> 
> ...


There' still Moose on the Fishlake and your beautiful great DWR who doesn't make any mistakes and who are so educated put them on the unit. You must know more than them because there the ones who put Moose on the unit and attempted to establish a herd so it wasn't an up in the night dream.

Next, spike hunts aren't ruining quality? Are you a complete idiot or have you just not got off your rocking chair and actually looked at unit by unit what it has done? You said it yourself killing bulls before they reach there potential or a cetain age is the problem. We'll killing them as a spike they can't do that mr. sw. You can't kill hundreds of bulls that haven't even had a chance to branch an antler and hope that your quality gets better. It has gone down hill and in a big way on many units. To say killing spikes does nothing to the quality of the herd is idiotic. Let them grow and instead of issuing spike tags issue more LE tags actually letting the bulls grow to somewhat of there potential before killing them.

Cows are only killed for units reaching objective? We'll there's plenty of units this year that were issued cow tags that were no where near objective and with the amoutn of tags issued was more than if it were to reach objective.

As for the extended archery.... ya I could kill a buck that big on any unit in Utah during the rut. That is the only reason bucks like that are killed not because they are of Henry or Paunsagaunt quality. It's pretty simple to kill a big buck when the rut is in full swing. No I kill my bucks on general units when it's a challenge and they aren't stupified by sex on there minds, you're the poser.

All the education in the world won't convince me that things have gotten better over the last decade and not worse.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

^^^^look in the mirror to see the complete idiot. I thought you left?


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Spike hunts have nothing to do with the quality of big bulls on our LE units. The reason so many of them are declining is that no tags are issued for the plethora of 300" bulls running around. Nobody is going to take such a bull after waiting half of their adult life for a permit. So if a bull doesn't reach 320" he will never be harvested. It is a flawed system and it will only get worse as time goes on. The only solution I can see is to give out enough tags that people will shoot the less desirable bulls. 

Other failures I see: 

The LE hunts were largely created as temporary measures to increase herds. They were never intended to be permanent, but greedy people have made them that way. This is a huge failure. Even though there is great hunting to be had on these units, making them off limits to most people has put too much pressure on the remaining units. It's just not worth the trade off to have a "canned hunt" every 15 years.

CWMUs are also a disaster for most hunters in Utah. All those ranches that used to be very accessible to average joes are now virtually locked up. We will never hunt them again unless we wait in a huge line or pay big money. Anyone remember the days when you could hunt these ranches for a small trespass fee? Or when United Sportsmen controlled the hunting rights to many of them, and you could pick your unit for deer and elk for a couple hundred bucks a year? Those days are long gone.

Success? Despite all the crap that has gone on in the last 20 years, there are some bright spots. I can still get a deer tag and hunt big bucks every year. The same can be said for elk. Even though many units are closed to general hunting, some remain open. The plus side of the LE units is that I can go and look at big bucks and bulls whenever I want to. Elk numbers are right where they should be and the meat hunts are easy to be had.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> There' still Moose on the Fishlake and your beautiful great DWR who doesn't make any mistakes and who are so educated put them on the unit. You must know more than them because there the ones who put Moose on the unit and attempted to establish a herd so it wasn't an up in the night dream.
> 
> Next, spike hunts aren't ruining quality? Are you a complete idiot or have you just not got off your rocking chair and actually looked at unit by unit what it has done? You said it yourself killing bulls before they reach there potential or a cetain age is the problem. We'll killing them as a spike they can't do that mr. sw. You can't kill hundreds of bulls that haven't even had a chance to branch an antler and hope that your quality gets better. It has gone down hill and in a big way on many units. To say killing spikes does nothing to the quality of the herd is idiotic. Let them grow and instead of issuing spike tags issue more LE tags actually letting the bulls grow to somewhat of there potential before killing them.
> 
> ...


First off I can't believe I'm getting goaded into this post. I guess its my own fault. Also I could care less about the division.

Moose
the division may have planted moose on the fish lake unit but it wasn't predators that are keeping them from succeeding like you say. There is data out there that confirms what i was saying but I'm not going to waste my time looking for it.

Spike
Your twisting my words looking for me to support your thoughts it ain't happening. Killing spikes has nothing to do with quality. It has everything to do with killing opportunity at branch antler bulls. When the state has 4.5-5 year old objectives you won't ever have the quality you seek! Especially when you give the majority of the tags to rifle rut hunters with 90+% success rates. Its way to easy for them to shoot the quality out.

You will have to have spike hunts or managment hunts on high age objective units especially if the herd is at objective. You can't stock pile bulls without killing cows or the herd keeps incteasing in size. You have to kill cows at some point or the herd doubles in size every year and is over objective.

Name the units that were under objective and they issued cow tags and ill show you a unit with calf production in the spring that will incrase the herd size over objective this fall. The division doesn't just issue cow or doe tags to kill for money like you think. Its called managent. Sure I think they could do better with the peaks and valleys but with swag numbers, mother nature and no quata hunts its all but impossible.

Your comment on the extended is laughable and shows you don't have a clue. Whats stopping ya from picking up a bow and killing your big buck up there. Its probably a challenge you cant handle would be my guess! I have quite a few friends that haven't been able to do it either though and everyone of them will say its no easy task like you suggest. You say its so easy and yet I've hunted my backside off and only killed one big buck in 11 years of hunting it in the rut. I guess from experrience I've learned to take a buck when the opportunity presents itself. I have no desire to chase those bucks in november if I don't have to. Im simply not man enough to do it very often.

As for quality you will never have quality on the front or any where else in this state when you manage with a rifle without cutting no slashing the tags. Henries and pauns are proof. It has nothing to do with a little rut hunt with a bow. Archery is the only way for quality you seek and high opportunity and that's a fact! Quit being a hater and pick up a bow and prove me wrong I guess all I can say.

As for education on the last ten years. The state reccords have been broken many times on probably every species in this state. The goat, sheep and elk have probably doubled in numbers. The deer have slightly increased in numbers and are better off imho then they were in the 90's and my wall seems to prove this to me. All I can say is if you haven't capitalized on the system then its your own fault.


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

I haven't the slightest idea what your problem with the extended archery is, but for the SLC unit specifically, it is the only way deer can be legally harvested. It is either archery or no hunting thanks to the PETA yuppies and outdoor resorts that plague the area. Are you saying you would rather strip opportunity from fellow hunters because you feel slighted, since they hunt with a different weapon choice than yours and have a longer season to do so? If that is the case, you can consider yourself a supporter of the problems more than any the solutions...

The last thing we need to worry about is elk numbers. For someone who is concerned about/support mule deer, you worrying about boosting the elk population contradicts that notion (on most units anyways). Most all the units with high cow tags available are either at or above objective (in a few, way above objective); the others have a historical need for depredation. Spike hunts are doing nothing more than reducing options to LE hunters when the bulls come of age. Plenty of spikes survive to more than support LE tag allocations. There can only be so many elk on a unit, if we try to keep every bull alive solely for LE opportunity, more cows will have to be killed to bring the herds to objective, further skewing the bull:cow ratio and increasing the odds the population will crash. And for what, potentially a few more inches and a handful of tags for a select few fortunate souls. Yet, thousands of hunters will lose out on one of the last remaining over-the-counter options for a family hunt. Great idea 1eye. 

Lastly, we haven't even had more than 1 season to measure the results from option 2, yet you attribute recent successes in deer management/populations with option 2? It couldn't have anything to do with years of habitat work, milder winters, or the boom/bust cycles of Mother Nature... Nope, the increase has to do with hunter management and the loss of thousands of tags (yet higher success % and almost the same # bucks harvested), all of which happened in the short span of less than a year, AMAZING! I mean, just look at all the LE units that have been managed this way for 10-20 years, they are just overflowing with deer and almost double their objective, right? :-?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

I understand everyone's outcry over loosing more opportunity than we already have. With the amount of hunters and the with how deadly the weapons we use are, you can't say that tag numbers can forever stay the same and continue letting permit numbers go up. Hunting is a very effective management tool, I don't think any elk herd is going to outgrow what we can manage or manage back down with the types of rifles, bows, and muzzleloaders we have now. They are all much more precise and deadly then ever before, management through hunting can obviously be done. Obviously I will bring up the Monroe unit. They have there backlash reasoning behind it that the cows on the Monroe are wintering on the Dutton, then kill them on the Dutton during a late hunt when they would have reached there winter range (Dec.1-31) don't open the Monroe up to archery cow, and release 250 cow tags on the Monroe when it is 400 under objective as a population, under objective on the amount of bulls, under objective for the age of bulls, and yet they consider it good that a the Monroe a unit half the size of Fishlake with 1/4 the amount of elk because of easy access and the size of the unit had 165 spikes taken off it last year, while Fishlake had 151. Certain units can't handle over the long haul spike hunting the way it is now.

I'm not saying option 2 is the success we are having with the deer population, I said I think there heading in the right direction and it will create better bucks on many units. I didn't say it is currently why the deer herd is doing slightly better right now.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

I won't speak for rifles and muzzys, but records/reports show that for all the advances in archery equipment, there is no significant increase in the deer success rates since at least 1962, 4 years before compounds were even invented! There were obviously some differences to consider for both archery and rifle (there were no seperate muzzy hunts then), either sex hunts, statewide hunts, higher population and many antlerless hunts, that might increase success back then, but there were also factors that would also reduce success (shorter seasons, no long extended hunts, stick bows, fixed blade broadheads).

In fact, the 11 year average from 1952 to 1962 (18.5%) is actually higher than the 2011 success rate (16.4%) which is the latest report I have. Archery hunting is still challenging for the same reasons it's always been. You have to get close without being detected!

Hunting is indeed a very effective management tool, but the type of hunt we espouse, per our mindset, depends on whether we're after a bigger population or just after more big bucks and bulls. And the ironic thing about the differences in the types of hunts we keep debating about is that if we have hunts that increase the population, we'll end up having more big bucks and bulls. If the hunt will increase the population (or at least, not hurt the growth of the population) then that's the hunt we need in the long run. IMHO, of course!

Lastly, though you're not saying that Option #2 is the reason for the population increases, you do say we're heading in the right direction. A direction to what? Many of us already dislike the direction we're heading because it is not science/biologically based, ie; it is trophy based, which is emotional. So what can we expect you to propose later that we will like?


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

One eye you lose all credibility in this matter.


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## TargetProne (Sep 24, 2007)

I've hunted deer 5 out of the last 6 years I've hunted deer with a bow. I have filled 4 out of the 5 tags and 3 out of the 4 were 3 and 4 points. I've spike hunted elk with a bow 2 years I killed a spike 1 out of the 2 years... I refuse to shoot a cow with an archery elk tag so that's pretty good proof my compound bow has served me very well and all I have hunted is mostly weekends. Weapons now including archery are very advanced. Many guys I know can comfortably shoot and have killed deer and elk with there $2000 set up at 800-1000 yards and muzzleloader a 400-500. Different management is called for our weapons and hunting advantages are different than they once were. This is my .02 on the subject.


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## DarKHorN (Mar 4, 2012)

I've killed 4 out of 5 deer at 120+ yards with my bow. Hard to say how many others I have wounded though.


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## silvertip (Sep 27, 2007)

DarKHorN said:


> I've killed 4 out of 5 deer at 120+ yards with my bow. Hard to say how many others I have wounded though.


I won't take a shot with my bow if it's under 100 yards. It just don't seem sporting otherwise. I didn't pay all that money for my fancy single pin slider to be taking weak 60-70 yard shots at deer.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

silvertip said:


> I won't take a shot with my bow if it's under 100 yards. It just don't seem sporting otherwise. I didn't pay all that money for my fancy single pin slider to be taking weak 60-70 yard shots at deer.


P u s s i e s


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

DarKHorN said:


> I've killed 4 out of 5 deer at 120+ yards with my bow. Hard to say how many others I have wounded though.


Holy $#!¥ darkhorn, probably something one should not post on a public forum. While yes, today's tech with archery and a fair amount of practice makes this type of shot a possibility, doesn't mean one should. I am typically the last person to lecture someone on what is ethical, but when you caveat your comment on your skills with "hard to say how many I have wounded", that statement is wrong on so many levels.

One, it shows you may not be as good as you think.

Two, it shows you need to revisit Bowhunting 101. Every single shot should be followed up, that is the most basic principle of archery after taking a shot at an animal. Not only can it tell you if and where it was hit, but finding a $25 arrow is usually something most people would be concerned with. Fire and forget is something some rifle hunters do, no archer should ever not follow up.

Three, it is this type of action and publicity that IMO is the biggest obstacle for expanding archery opportunity in this State. On a rifle deer hunt in the Books a few years ago I was helping on, while talking to a group of guys we came across, they claimed a CO in the San Juan area told them that archers mortally wound and don't find 5 deer for every one tagged, and that by decreasing archery tags, they could add 2 rifle tags for every archery tag taken. Your actions and those like you only support these ridiculous claims/arguments. In 21 years hunting with a bow and 14 deer and 2 elk harvested, I have only lost 2 animals. I am positive on this because I follow up every shot and usually find every arrow. Both times I spent the rest of my hunt looking for them. Both animals were hit good, but physical factors (intense rain, thick trees/underbrush, steep and rugged terrain) played against me. I am confident that my harvest to loss ratio is better than most rifle hunters, but they wouldn't know because unless the animal drops within sight, many rarely follow up on their shots. If you bow hunt long enough, you are likely to lose an animal, but it should never be due to piss poor shooting or shooting outside of ones capabilities.

My suggestion to you is get closer to the game you are hunting (it is not a contest for the furthest shot), follow up on every shot, and if one is hit don't give up looking for it until you find it or the hunt ends. If this is too difficult, maybe you should hang up the bow and go with a rifle. Stop screwing your archer friends and needlessly wasting deer.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I think you missed the sarcasm.


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> I think you missed the sarcasm.


If that's the case, my apologize for my feeble mind -O,- . Next time put a wink on there or make it more unrealistic. I've seen a ton of similar posts that were 100% serious. I'm just sick of being lumped with the distance shooters giving us all a bad rap. Archers have been and continue to be sodomized by special interet groups and poor perception, plus add in a crappy day, it caused the vents to open.


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## Muley73 (Nov 20, 2010)

Fly,
You are confident that your loss to recovery rate is higher than most rifle hunters??? Really??? Based on your advanced research. Archers sodomized by special interest groups? Poor perception??? 

It is this elitest, and picked on attitude that drove me from being a very very dedicated active bowhunter to rarely picking up my bow. I love to shoot archery, I love to hunt archery, I have a LE elk permit this year that is archery. I HATE BEING CALLED AN ARCHER, due to posts like you have made.

Fly fishing and archery...... The Elite Outdoorsman....No thanks. I'll take someone that just loves being outdoors and supports all the aspects of it.


As a side note I would love to see a few more units in each region go to archery only just like the Wasatch Unit. More oppurtunity and better trophy quality. A true option with Option 2 in effect.


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## Broadside_Shot (Feb 22, 2010)

As for the extended archery.... ya I could kill a buck that big on any unit in Utah during the rut. That is the only reason bucks like that are killed not because they are of Henry or Paunsagaunt quality. It's pretty simple to kill a big buck when the rut is in full swing. No I kill my bucks on general units when it's a challenge and they aren't stupified by sex on there minds, you're the poser.


FYI, SWbuckmasters bucks from the front have Velvet on them. He has a hard time during the rut when there are tons of people.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

COUNTLESS success storys over the last 20 year.

Done largly with concervation permit dollars.

Cant imagine were we would be right now without all that has been done!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here is a link to were 1.3 MILLION dollars has gone into habitate
projects IN JUST THE LAST YEAR !!!!

http://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/conservation_permit_projects.pdf

I consider all of them to be 'success' storys:O||:


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Muley73 said:


> Fly,
> You are confident that your loss to recovery rate is higher than most rifle hunters??? Really??? Based on your advanced research. Archers sodomized by special interest groups? Poor perception???
> 
> It is this elitest, and picked on attitude that drove me from being a very very dedicated active bowhunter to rarely picking up my bow. I love to shoot archery, I love to hunt archery, I have a LE elk permit this year that is archery. I HATE BEING CALLED AN ARCHER, due to posts like you have made.
> ...


Wow! I never, ever thought I'd be linked with fly fishing as an "Elite Outdoorsman". I'm not sure if I should be flattered or flabbergasted. And I never thought that my efforts to defend my position from others who would impose their values on me would be construed as an elitist, picked on attitude.

I also thought that the benefits we enjoy were developed by the DWR to help compensate for the natural challenges we face and were an effort by the DWR to draw more of us into the sport in order to provide more opportunity for hunting while lowering the impact on the resource and to reduce the number of hunters during rifle season.

And I always thought that "Elitists" were the ones trying to impose their values on others, not the ones who were forced to defend their position. I guess I was wrong!


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> Wow! I never, ever thought I'd be linked with fly fishing as an "Elite Outdoorsman". I'm not sure if I should be flattered or flabbergasted. And I never thought that my efforts to defend my position from others who would impose their values on me would be construed as an elitist, picked on attitude.
> 
> I also thought that the benefits we enjoy were developed by the DWR to help compensate for the natural challenges we face and were an effort by the DWR to draw more of us into the sport in order to provide more opportunity for hunting while lowering the impact on the resource and to reduce the number of hunters during rifle season.
> 
> And I always thought that "Elitists" were the ones trying to impose their values on others, not the ones who were forced to defend their position. I guess I was wrong!


+1 EFA, couldn't have said it better.

Muley73, I am far from being an elitist. I love the rifle hunt, love hunting deer in the cold weather, and will typically put in for a rifle tag every 4 or 5 years just to give the .270 some field time. But for all the reasons I like it, there are more that turn me off from it. And the little I do it anymore is just a reminder why I love bow hunting.

As for the difference in loss:recovery ratio between rifle and bow, someone posted a link to a study on MM a couple years back that consisted of forensics done on dead deer that were found to determine cause. I can't remember all the details, but more deer were determined to be shot and not found by rifle hunters. Not too surprising since the number of rifle hunters was far greater than bow hunters, but when compared side by side with harvest statistics and hunter numbers, it was determined that the loss per hunter/harvest was nearly equal % with a slight increase with a rifle. The consensus of this independent, university sponsored study (I believe it was the University of Colorado), was that rifle hunters shooting greater distances are less likely to follow up on a shot if they felt they missed. In almost all cases archers do follow up regardless of a perceived miss or hit. That is where I generated my opinion of myself. I tried to find the link and I will continue to dig just for you.

You have a pretty pathetic reason for putting down the bow, maybe it is just an excuse for something else. As for my comment about special interest, it is no secret and to deny such is ignorance. Remember the taking away of Statewide because of "crowding" that was proven false. Rifle hunters didn't think it was fair, so archers lost, even though it was shown there was no crowding and archery had a very minimal impact. How about rifle elk in the rut? Tell me there is no special interest involved there? Every other state typically reserves the rut for primitive weapons, but not here. Special interest has been targeting the extended for years, and it would have likely been lost to archers long ago if it wasn't for the fact that archery really is the only option for proper management in those areas.

Unlike you I am proud to be called an ARCHER, even though I have had dedicated tags in my pocket a few times and love hunting with all weapon types. Maybe you don't like being called one because you never were one to begin with. You may perceive posts like mine to be complaining about fairness, it couldn't be further from the truth. Posts like mine are merely calls for those making decisions about management to use common sense and ignore special interest, at the same time hopefully educating those who have misconceptions that people like you promote. These people need to realize archery is probably the best all around tool for creating trophy potential, increasing opportunity, and managing urban areas as Utah's population continues to grow. The biggest threat to moving forward with this tool are who shoot beyond their ability and brag about it in a public forum and/or don't make an effort at recovery; hunters like you who try to divide, spew lies and falsehoods and create ignorant stereotypes, and special interests who are more concerned about "fairness" for their preferred weapon type and the almighty dollar more so than the biological management of the resource.

Those of us with an open mind will continue to fight for what we know is right. I have a bow tag this year, but I am also looking forward to a quality rifle hunt in Colorado in another year or two; and I now have enough preference points to draw a rifle tag next year in my preferred Unit in Utah. And BTW, though I may fish with flies only, I am the type of fly fisher that elitists hate. Just thought I would point that out to show how narrow minded and shallow your statement was. There are several shades of gray between the black and white...


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

Broadside_Shot said:


> As for the extended archery.... ya I could kill a buck that big on any unit in Utah during the rut. That is the only reason bucks like that are killed not because they are of Henry or Paunsagaunt quality. It's pretty simple to kill a big buck when the rut is in full swing. No I kill my bucks on general units when it's a challenge and they aren't stupified by sex on there minds, you're the poser.
> 
> FYI, SWbuckmasters bucks from the front have Velvet on them. He has a hard time during the rut when there are tons of people.


Either you have never hunted the extended with a bow or when you have, you have been extremely lucky. Hunting big bucks up there, in the rut or not, is far from easy. Is it easier in the rut, maybe, but personally I have had much better luck on general units early season. In 7 seasons hunting the front, I have only harvested 1 decent buck. As for trying to call out SWB on his bucks in velvet, that should be testament to the man for being a highly skilled hunter. The places he hunts and the bucks he has harvested, 99% of hunters out there could never accomplish that; and he did it outside of the rut, imagine that...


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Broadside_Shot said:


> As for the extended archery.... ya I could kill a buck that big on any unit in Utah during the rut. That is the only reason bucks like that are killed not because they are of Henry or Paunsagaunt quality. It's pretty simple to kill a big buck when the rut is in full swing. No I kill my bucks on general units when it's a challenge and they aren't stupified by sex on there minds, you're the poser.
> 
> FYI, SWbuckmasters bucks from the front have Velvet on them. He has a hard time during the rut when there are tons of people.


This guy doesn't like hiking to the top of the mountain in the snow. It simply makes everything 10 times harder. For some reason every archer in utah seems to think that hunting the rut is the only time you can kill a big buck or find a big buck up there. No thanks ill pass if I can but i still like the opportunity i can have if needed.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

This thread is definatly circling the drain. I knew it would even before I posted my first post. 

1-I

You will always have to kill cows when units are at objective or slightly under objective like you said. Even a herd that is only under objective 400 animals has the potential after calves hit the ground to be over objective come fall. The division takes this into account. Its called managnent! It doesn't matter if the cows are killed with a bow or rifle.

Now on to bulls. The age of the bulls is under objective so tags were cut. Thats how it works. There following the plan! 
You should be happy the monroe is shot out like you say it is. Why? Because now the division can slash tags and increase the butt plugg. You will have your quality soon enough again because if your correct they will be rebuilding the herd Rebuilding=stock pilling=more tag butt plug=more conservation $$ for tags.

Can any herd in this state be managed better. Maybe but until you can predict what mother nature does everything else is just swag. Until they go to a strict quota where you have to call in every 5 minutes some animals might get over harvested. Who cares the next year the numbers are adjusted. Until the division can harvest the animals on privite property that are included in the overall count there are going to be animals getting killed off public and stock pilled on privite. The division will still have to pay for property damage and hand out money to thes property owners. Thats the only failure I see in the system!


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

goofy elk said:


> COUNTLESS success storys over the last 20 year.
> 
> Done largly with concervation permit dollars.
> 
> Cant imagine were we would be right now without all that has been done!


I know goofy, right?? That's why you always talk so highly of and participate annually in the general deer and elk hunts... Truely awesome success stories with sooooooooooo much conservation money spent to benefit the deer herds and grow 'em big and strong!  Oh, and where would we be right now? Well, probably just about the same place given our neighboring states who have spent soooooooooooooo much less than Utah has and have about the same growth/stagnation rates.:?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

> You will always have to kill cows when units are at objective or slightly under objective like you said. Even a herd that is only under objective 400 animals has the potential after calves hit the ground to be over objective come fall. The division takes this into account. Its called managnent! It doesn't matter if the cows are killed with a bow or rifle.
> 
> Now on to bulls. The age of the bulls is under objective so tags were cut. Thats how it works. There following the plan!
> You should be happy the monroe is shot out like you say it is. Why? Because now the division can slash tags and increase the butt plugg. You will have your quality soon enough again because if your correct they will be rebuilding the herd Rebuilding=stock pilling=more tag butt plug=more conservation $$ for tags.
> ...


I'm not going to say your completely wrong. I understand that they might look to the future and the herd my grow 400 after calves are put into the herd. But by opening the bow hunt the Monroe herd grew 0 for the last 3 years and has stayed at 1,400 estimated elk. The objective is 1,800. So there was no upward trend, there was nothing saying what was in place wasn't already letting the herd reach the objective. It has stayed steady for 3 years straight there was no growth in the trend. Apparently this year it was just gonna boom though right? No the herd hadn't reached objective, wasn't on a trend to reach objective, and the DWR sold 250 $50 cow tags for some more dough.

The age of bulls was under objective because they over-issued tags just like there over issuing tags for cows on the unit now. Yes if the trend continues tags will be harder to get, but there going to be hard to get anyway so when I do draw I want it to be worth the 20 years U wanted and $1,000 it takes me to kill the bull.


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## 90redryder (Oct 10, 2011)

Some of you fellas act like a bunch of sassy teenage girls. It makes me think that maybe you have been picked on your whole life so now you need to dominate the virtual world since your pudgy 5 foot tall frame doesn't get you any respect out in the real world. It's the same guys topic after topic getting their panties all twisted up over nothing.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

90redryder said:


> Some of you fellas act like a bunch of sassy teenage girls. It makes me think that maybe you have been picked on your whole life so now you need to dominate the virtual world since your pudgy 5 foot tall frame doesn't get you any respect out in the real world. It's the same guys topic after topic getting their panties all twisted up over nothing.


And some of you fellas figure that advocating or opposing regulations and management strategies on the internet that reduce hunting opportunities, increase trophy numbers at the expense of population numbers, artificially increase prices, divide hunters by weapon types, hunting stategies, income, and age (and now even gender and height) is "nothing"! And maybe you're not aware that many of these "sassy teenage girls" also use emails, snail mail, fax's, phone calls, attendence at RAC and WB meetings and contacts with legislators to do their advocating or opposing.

It's unfortunate that some/many posts include namecalling, obviously disguised foul language, insults, and insinuendoes and you can view this as foolish school hallway bickering because of it if you want, but I know that some of the people who make the rules and/or administer the management strategies are also viewing it and most of them can get past all of that. I also know that more and more people are getting involved because of these forums. Hopefully, you'll be one of them!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

And some of us just can't help from pushing our personal agenda every chance they get.-O,-

Back on topic. I think the Stansbury and New Foundland sheep transplants have been a huge success.


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