# Private Landowners and Elk....



## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

While listening to the WB meeting and hearing all these commissioners from central utah complaining about elk... They should get a list and let the public hunters who apply for tags to hunt their property... 

IMHO...If they would let us hunters on the property that is getting hit hard by elk they getting some hunters on them would push them back on the mountains...

Just thinking out loud.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

While I feel bad for these guys that's exactly right, they just want bigger checks. The sportsmen get trampled on by these guys..,


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

A bunch of bitchy individuals who believe they are owed everything when sportsmen are footing the major bill on public lands.


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## martymcfly73 (Sep 17, 2007)

Bitches


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Yup little girls. If they put half the effort into making there property less comfortable/accessible to elk. As they do whining and crying . They wouldn't have this problem


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## HighNDry (Dec 26, 2007)

Probably some type of federal aid available if they whine long enough. Same mold as the "kick-the-feds-out-of-Utah group. All's fine and dandy until a wildfire, drought, or predator does harm, then it's reach out to Uncle Sam and have him pay for it all.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

It just gets very frustrating especially watching these individuals walk to the mic and complain, complain, complain looking for a handout. Sportsmen have footed millions of dollars, done thousands of volunteered hours, dedicated hunter hours, paid license fees, heavy taxes, conservation stamps, and supported tons of great nonprofit organizations that continue to improve public lands and work with the BLM and Forest Service rather than against them, like ranchers and farmers have chosen, and they sit there and complain nonstop. 

Maybe we should demand the fact that we foot the bill and manpower to improve these public lands and we want even more AMU's than cattle because they aren't doing a heck of a lot to improve public lands, so why are they dragging in success at bottom dollar grazing fees for the work and money we have put on the ground. Sportsmen don't want a war, and I'm not for us taking away from cattlemen because it is their lifestyle, but when they sit here and complain, and preach of no elk after we've spent millions upon millions to help our wildlife, lands, and elk, maybe they should get a war. Cattle eat far more than any deer, antelope, or elk could ever dream of, now maybe after we've done most the work, we decide if they are going to continue to complain, we decide we get most the benefit. We have both benefited from each other over the past few decades and it is more the farmer/rancher side of the argument that continues to not change, and they seem to not be able to see through their stubborn ways how much we have truly done for them. I'm sorry but those men who stood at the mic today are very clueless individuals, who aren't hoping for elk within management objectives but little to no elk at all. I won't stand for it and if they want push back they'll get it. Start working with us instead of against and stop being leeches on society hoping that everyone else spends the money and you reap all the benefits. Sportsmen had less elk, we decided instead of complaining constantly to raise the funds and grow our elk herds and help other wildlife as well. Farmers/ranchers seem to be in the norm of complaining and hoping the state will pay to fix their problems, whether by hay,fencing, manpower, etc. I understand it is their livelihood but if farmers are the hard working honest souls they claim to be stop trying to mooch off us and the state because you won't fix your own problems. Pay for your own fence sportsmen foot the bill for their projects. I pay plenty in donations, taxes, and fees year in and year out with the hopes we can reach objectives and move forward with wildlife and natural resources not backward. I'm willing to work with them to make things better for both sides, but not when they are continually working against us.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

HighNDry said:


> Probably some type of federal aid available if they whine long enough. Same mold as the "kick-the-feds-out-of-Utah group. All's fine and dandy until a wildfire, drought, or predator does harm, then it's reach out to Uncle Sam and have him pay for it all.


Exactly. These good ole boys are supposed to be hard workers and the corner stone of America, not standing at a mic looking for a handout because you've done nothing to improve your situation or help yourself. Sportsmen foot the bill, and until farmers and ranchers start to foot some of it, they can shove their foot in their mouth. Anti-feds is on their objective, and yet they stand their in line for federal money for sprinkler systems and fencing, pathetic.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

Hard to feel bad for a guy when he pulls up in a 70k truck. And claims poverty. Not all but some of these guys get away with to much. Wich I could care less untill they start bitching about the elk.most of my in laws are legit proud Cattlemen and know keeping elk off the fields the right way is part of the job


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

hazmat said:


> Hard to feel bad for a guy when he pulls up in a 70k truck. And claims poverty. Not all but some of these guys get away with to much. Wich I could care less untill they start bitching about the elk.most of my in laws are legit proud Cattlemen and know keeping elk off the fields the right way is part of the job


Hey those feds they're always bashing paid for their sprinkler lines and fencing around their property, they can afford a nice truck.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

I have respect for the cattlemen and I sympathize with many of their complaints; however, their approach is currently to stick it to the hunters and take out the elk. 

When I start seeing "no trespassing" signs turn into "elk hunters welcome with permission" I will take them serious.


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## berrysblaster (Nov 27, 2013)

The reality is that they have created the problem and refuse to address it. They complain, the board listens, issues more permits, more public pressure pushes more and more elk onto their property. The next year they come back complaining even more elk...vicious cycle


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

berrysblaster said:


> The reality is that they have created the problem and refuse to address it. They complain, the board listens, issues more permits, more public pressure pushes more and more elk onto their property. The next year they come back complaining even more elk...vicious cycle


Very true and they just added a ton more pressure. If you allow hunters to push them off by hunting your problem would be solved and we wouldn't have to slaughter our cows .


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

provider said:


> I have respect for the cattlemen and I sympathize with many of their complaints; however, their approach is currently to stick it to the hunters and take out the elk.
> 
> When I start seeing "no trespassing" signs turn into "elk hunters welcome with permission" I will take them serious.


This is exactly how I feel. In most cases there's a solution. Have some hunters come and kill the elk. This will also not provide a safe haven for them. I realize that isn't the answer in every situation. But would work for many.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

Be like the Knuckle Head down South who went out and shot the hell outa them...These guys up North or any other area need to let these animals be harvested..just don't ask for the Title to their homes to obtain a permit.. FOR YOUR ELK HA!!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Another thing to note, many of the guys that run cattle don't do it on their own property. They are leasing the property to run cattle on and that's all.
They have no right or authority to let hunters on that land.
Then if the property owner is leasing the hunting rights to an outfitter who wants as many elk on the property as possible for his own clients to hunt.
Well, there lies a very big problem.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

ridgetop said:


> Another thing to note, many of the guys that run cattle don't do it on their own property. They are leasing the property to run cattle on and that's all.
> They have no right or authority to let hunters on that land.
> Then if the property owner is leasing the hunting rights to an outfitter who wants as many elk on the property as possible for his own clients to hunt.
> Well, there lies a very big problem.


Yeah, the land they are "leasing" is called national forest.


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

All great points guys... 

I think that if these county commissioners got a list of problem fields or Ranchers having issues the they could ask the division to get a list of problem fields that required the same permissions as Walk In Access Areas. Then that list could be used by hunters to focus there hunting pressure to help the elk be pushed off the land, and it would be help the Rancher / Landowner. 

This just needs to be looked at as a Win / Win for all involved. 

More could be done by both the Division and the County Commissioners. It just sucks that people wont reach out to help all, they would just like the easy road. 

I wonder if we should get a letter out to Beaver, Wayne, Emery and other counties that were represented to the WB to get the information moving along? 

Thoughts?


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Very true and they just added a ton more pressure. If you allow hunters to push them off by hunting your problem would be solved and we wouldn't have to slaughter our cows .


Yes, I can see this.

If I was a land owner, I think I would be hard pressed to allow hunters on my land.

Reason #1 - Littering

Reason #2 - Land Disturbance (ATV's, Tents, Trucks, Fire Puts, & Horses)

Reason #3 - You have something of value, why would you give it away for free.

I think you would be hard pressed for a land owner to find a hunter that doesn't disturb the land, litter, or pay a modest trespass fee.

Also, longer or spilt seasons would help control the pressure. August 1 - December 31 either open to all or split into weekly units would help.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Yes, I can see this.
> 
> If I was a land owner, I think I would be hard pressed to allow hunters on my land.
> 
> ...


Why would they expect a trespass fee when they are the one doing nothing but whining about te elk? I would rather have less cow tags and not even get a tag than be slaughtering our cows. It's hypocritical to stand there and whine about them, then ask for a trespass fee. Their trespass fee is pushing te elk off their property and saving some of their hay they are taking so much of.

Also I think most of te farmers at the wildlife board meeting just had alfalfa fields the elk are on. They wouldn't need to allow anyone to camp or drive anywhere. If I were getting permission I would never expect that have me the right to drive on their property even to retreive game without asking, but yes there are those with bad habits that ruin it for us. I mean I would pay a trespass fee if it would get them off the elks back a little but I just don't see these ole boys changing their stubborn minds about them.


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

#1DEER 1-I said:


> Why would they expect a trespass fee when they are the one doing nothing but whining about te elk?
> I would rather have less cow tags and not even get a tag than be slaughtering our cows. It's hypocritical to stand there and whine about them, then ask for a trespass fee. Their trespass fee is pushing te elk off their property and saving some of their hay they are taking so much of.
> 
> Also I think most of te farmers at the wildlife board meeting just had alfalfa fields the elk are on. They wouldn't need to allow anyone to camp or drive anywhere. If I were getting permission I would never expect that have me the right to drive on their property even to retreive game without asking, but yes there are those with bad habits that ruin it for us. I mean I would pay a trespass fee if it would get them off the elks back a little but I just don't see these ole boys changing their stubborn minds about them.


You have to look at things from the landowners perspective.

- You don't want litter - hunter's litter
- You don't want land disturbance - hunter's disturb land
- You don't want property damage
- You don't want some Jack-Hole that can't follow these rules.

The question is who do you trust to follow all of these rules?

An easy way would be a trespass fee with the understanding that these are the rules.

A trespass fee could be monetary or service (repairing fences).

If you pay to access land that no one else can access, you would probably be a better steward than someone who got access for free.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Depredation hunts are a method already in place to deal with game damage to private property. I've been called a couple of times to participated in depredation hunts in other states. The way they worked is once the elk moved down into the fields, the land owner called the fish and game and then they broke out their list of "hunters". Hunters were given a choice of dates to meet the land owner, who then took them out to the elk to harvest one (or however many). The ranchers were happy to get rid of the elk so they were glad to have the hunter follow them in their truck. This also made sure that the hunters didn't tear up the place, knock down fences, litter, or whatever. Money wasn't exchanged, but a thank you card sent with a gift card or something was appreciated. It was a good balance I thought in helping the ranchers, and also sportsmen that just wanted some elk meat. 

Interesting experiences for me though hunting private lands in various states - I've hunted private lands in Utah and Montana, each time being "guided" by the land owner/operator. I've gone in their trucks, and I have to say - they have driven all over the place, roads as an afterthought. They have all taken trucks far more off the road than I ever would as a guest. One ranch I hunted as a self guided hunt in Montana, I dragged a deer 1/2 mile to the road so I could haul it out. The rancher showed up about the time I got it to the truck and couldn't figure out why I'd go to all that effort instead of just driving out to the deer with the truck. I let him know I respected his land and didn't want to drive off the roads. In return, I am invited back to hunt any time I decide to buy a Montana tag.


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## wileywapati (Sep 9, 2007)

[(6)] (5) The division may deny or limit compensation if the claimant:
(a) has failed to exercise reasonable care and diligence to avoid the loss or minimize the damage; or
(b) has unreasonably restricted hunting on land under the claimant's control or passage through the land to access public lands for the purpose of hunting, after receiving written notification from the division of the necessity of allowing such hunting or access to control or mitigate damage by big game.


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## jshuag (Jan 16, 2014)

tallbuck said:


> While listening to the WB meeting and hearing all these commissioners from central utah complaining about elk... They should get a list and let the public hunters who apply for tags to hunt their property...
> 
> IMHO...If they would let us hunters on the property that is getting hit hard by elk they getting some hunters on them would push them back on the mountains...
> 
> Just thinking out loud.


This might not go over well with all of you but not all landowners can do this - even if they want to.

For example, I know a landowner who has thousands of acres that is EXTREMELY private. You have to go through 3 gates just to get in. And only 1 canyon provides this access. It is absolutely RIDDLED with elk. It drives him crazy. Unfortunately the land is a CWMU. This means that according to the law I cannot hunt there with an over the counter tag even though they don't issue enough CWMU tags to manage the herd that comes into his property every fall.

Here is the post I made about the law and how it applies in this situation:
http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/106314-question.html

And I really am not kidding. This year when they opened the lower gate there was an entire herd blocking the entrance road to the property. But there is nothing that the land owner can do about it.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Jsh- If the property is enrolled in the CWMU program then the landowner holds all the cards on how many antlerless elk tags are issued. The udwr would like most CWMUs to kill more cow elk.


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## jshuag (Jan 16, 2014)

That is probably true in most cases. However, for some reason unknown to me there is a private company that runs it. So perhaps my example is more the exception than the norm. 

I should probably keep my mouth shut without knowing more about how CWMUs operate.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

hazmat said:


> Hard to feel bad for a guy when he pulls up in a 70k truck. And claims poverty. Not all but some of these guys get away with to much. Wich I could care less untill they start bitching about the elk.most of my in laws are legit proud Cattlemen and know keeping elk off the fields the right way is part of the job


Hard to claim when they pull up in their $70K truck that was bought using tresspass or CWMU fees for elk and deer we paid to manage that then went to hide on their private property because they hadn't grazed any of their land and the general seasons started a week before they started hunting ... not to mention many of those CWMU and trespass fees arent accounted for or taxed... nor are their tips.


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

*Re whiners...*



hazmat said:


> Hard to feel bad for a guy when he pulls up in a 70k truck. And claims poverty. Not all but some of these guys get away with to much. Wich I could care less untill they start bitching about the elk.most of my in laws are legit proud Cattlemen and know keeping elk off the fields the right way is part of the job


Hard to claim when they pull up in their $70K truck that was bought using tresspass or CWMU fees for elk and deer we paid to manage that then went to hide on their private property because they hadn't grazed any of their land and the general seasons started a week before they started hunting ... not to mention many of those CWMU and trespass fees arent accounted for or taxed... nor are their tips.


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## bugchuker (Dec 3, 2007)

Their property, their problem. Until they are willing to allow the public some access to help with their problem, they shouldn't get a dime of public money. Just like the ones who claim to own the river, when the river floods and ruins your property, well it is your river. 

If the owners are worried about litter, damage, etc., keep a log of who goes in like they do at the WIA areas.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

bugchuker said:


> Just like the ones who claim to own the river, when the river floods and ruins your property, well it is your river.


Weber County Commissioner Kerry Gibson is a perfect example of this. As a legislator he helped lead the charge to close off thousands of miles of public water from the public use. Yet, a few years ago after he went to be a commissioner and when the Weber flooded he was out championing the cause for tax funds to fix the problem. If the land belongs to the person/entity, and you've completely cut the public off from using the public water, and the water floods from their land....shouldn't that landowner be liable instead of the public?

Can't have it both ways, IMO.

It would be great to see more signs posted as referenced above: "Hunters welcome with permission." Then I'd take their concerns about wildlife a little more seriously. If you don't want the public involved, then get off the public teet.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Packout said:


> Jsh- If the property is enrolled in the CWMU program then the landowner holds all the cards on how many antlerless elk tags are issued. The udwr would like most CWMUs to kill more cow elk.


When I was involved with a CWMU, the DWR told us *IF* we got any cow elk permits and how many we could have.

Now that has been 8 years ago or so since we dissolved the CWMU so the rules could have changed.


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## elkman (Sep 1, 2013)

Who are these guys? I am always looking for a new area to hunt elk. I will sent each of them a written request for a trespass permit with a complete list of references that will vouch for my integrity and personal commitment to respect land. pack out more than I take in, leave gates the way I find them, walk or horse only if the concern is wear and tear on land and what ever else they are afraid of. I will also donate 1/2 of any animal I kill on their land to them or a food bank if they would like. Then if after that they still deny access then we can call them a bunch of whiney bitches that only want a hand out.


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