# Mossback, not guiding gov elk tags!



## goofy elk

From Mossbacks home page......

MossBack has elected not to guide the Governors elk tag in Utah for the time being.The State of Utah is more worried about killing 13,000 spikes, 14,300 any bull, and over 14,000 pregnant cows than having the greatest mature bull elk hunting in the world. All I can say is they better build the heard size back up and then some because those wolves are going to be hungry when they get here. These number do not include the limited entry bull unit tag numbers.

-Doyle Moss


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## USMARINEhuntinfool

Wow, thats about an asnine statement. Guess that shows the true Doyle. Screw everyone elses oppertunity to hunt, I want my big bulls, noone else is worthy of hunting them...... What an @$$ hat...


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## BPturkeys

goofy elk said:


> From Mossbacks home page......
> 
> MossBack has elected not to guide the Governors elk tag in Utah for the time being.The State of Utah is more worried about killing 13,000 spikes, 14,300 any bull, and over 14,000 pregnant cows than having the greatest mature bull elk hunting in the world. All I can say is they better build the heard size back up and then some because those wolves are going to be hungry when they get here. These number do not include the limited entry bull unit tag numbers.
> 
> -Doyle Moss


Wow, possibly the most self serving statement I have ever heard on this forum. Of course the guides don't want 41,000 hunters to have the opportunity to be out in the field hunting elk. Let's just limit limit limit, maybe until the number of tags equals the number of guides in the state. I hope Mr. Moss is correct, it is not the job of the state of Utah to insure there is a great product for the guides to sell!


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## Huntoholic

Mr. Moss should probably check his numbers a bit.

Harvested Elk 2009;
Bulls - 7565
Anterless - 8003.

A far cry from Mr. Moss's stated 41300 killed...............

Our wolves (special interest groups) are already here.........


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## Treehugnhuntr

goofy elk said:


> From Mossbacks home page......
> 
> MossBack has elected not to guide the Governors elk tag in Utah for the time being.The State of Utah is more worried about killing 13,000 spikes, 14,300 any bull, and over 14,000 pregnant cows than having the greatest mature bull elk hunting in the world. All I can say is they better build the heard size back up and then some because those wolves are going to be hungry when they get here. These number do not include the limited entry bull unit tag numbers.
> 
> -Doyle Moss


Goofy, do you agree or disagree with his sentiment?


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## stablebuck

Treehugnhuntr said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> From Mossbacks home page......
> 
> MossBack has elected not to guide the Governors elk tag in Utah for the time being.The State of Utah is more worried about killing 13,000 spikes, 14,300 any bull, and over 14,000 pregnant cows than having the greatest mature bull elk hunting in the world. All I can say is they better build the heard size back up and then some because those wolves are going to be hungry when they get here. These number do not include the limited entry bull unit tag numbers.
> 
> -Doyle Moss
> 
> 
> 
> Goofy, do you agree or disagree with his sentiment?
Click to expand...

I think you call that there a "rhetorical question" :O•-:


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## Huge29

He should more than make up for it with the new deer plan, 210 bucks behind every bush by 2013 is what I heard. Maybe they can do the same for elk to make him happy.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool

"2009, due to the Utah’s Fish and Game Management programs there were only five bulls killed in the entire state over 400, MossBack was blessed to be apart of killing two of the five. Including Judy Helms new #1 bull taken by a woman, 404 gross and nets 392. Also Team MossBack was a part of 13 bucks taken over 200, 227 being the largest."

Also from the Mossback site. I can now see why you guys really dislike him. Pretty dang selfserving bugger. Oh, and they only hunt for the "trophy" hunter. Wow, what a clown.


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## Treehugnhuntr

Haha, putting all of the blame on the division. Very telling.

Just one of the first moves in a battle for manipulation of the statewide elk plan that will be implemented in few months. The political fireworks have begun.

Folks, be prepared for a proposed reduction in elk tags and more diminished hunting opportunity.


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## goofy elk

Treehugnhuntr said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> From Mossbacks home page......
> 
> MossBack has elected not to guide the Governors elk tag in Utah for the time being.The State of Utah is more worried about killing 13,000 spikes, 14,300 any bull, and over 14,000 pregnant cows than having the greatest mature bull elk hunting in the world. All I can say is they better build the heard size back up and then some because those wolves are going to be hungry when they get here. These number do not include the limited entry bull unit tag numbers.
> 
> -Doyle Moss
> 
> 
> 
> Goofy, do you agree or disagree with his sentiment?
Click to expand...

No, I don't for the most part,,,,And here are a few thoughts about it.

The 14,300 general any bull tags really don't affect L/E hunts at all..

The antler less hunts are absolutely necessary to control elk herd sizes,
BUT have been over done on some units, amount of permits & hunt dates.

I do not like the state wide spike hunts, it did not affect units like Manti
or the Wasatch the way they seem to be impacting say the Phavant, 
Monroe, Stansbury, even the West deserts elk herds..
Big bull numbers and Quality 'size wise' is declining almost state wide..
I hearing the average age bulls harvested state wide has also fell....

There are going to be significant tag cuts for L/E elk hunting in 2011.


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## Treehugnhuntr

goofy elk said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="goofy elk":14n016u1]
> There are going to be significant tag cuts for L/E elk hunting in 2011.
Click to expand...

[/quote:14n016u1]

Care to explain why?


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## goofy elk

Because most units are going to fall below the 'set' harvest age objectives..


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## svmoose

goofy elk said:


> From Mossbacks home page......
> 
> MossBack has elected not to guide the Governors elk tag in Utah for the time being.The State of Utah is more worried about killing 13,000 spikes, 14,300 any bull, and over 14,000 pregnant cows than having the greatest mature bull elk hunting in the world. All I can say is they better build the *heard* size back up and then some because those wolves are going to be hungry when they get here. These number do not include the limited entry bull unit tag numbers.
> 
> -Doyle Moss


I heard something else...
Seriously though, this is crazy. Is this to make up for the gov tag holder this year not killing a 400 incher?


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## Treehugnhuntr

So goofy, are you talking about the "new" harvest objective, the one that was proposed a year or two ago? The one that raises objectives on nearly every unit, reduces opportunity in hopes that the average harvest age, which no one has a clue about until they send in teeth from a dead elk, will be raised? 

The one that more or less reiterates that we are managing elk for inches of antler, completely disregards biology and will potentially crash our state's elk herds?

The one that raises the statewide elk objective to 85,000, much to the detriment of the deer herd that we are so concerned about, concerned enough to eliminate nearly 15% of our deer hunters?

Seems to me that as sportsmen that are very concerned with deer numbers and opportunity, we would have good reason to throw a bit of a fit about the new elk objectives. Maybe I am missing the upside to the majority of the co-owners of these animals.

Please advise.

PS, for honesty's sake, I'd like to disclose that there may have been a hint of rhetoric in the above comments and questions.


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## jahan

goofy elk said:


> Treehugnhuntr said:
> 
> 
> 
> [quote="goofy elk":6g2tb5kb]From Mossbacks home page......
> 
> MossBack has elected not to guide the Governors elk tag in Utah for the time being.The State of Utah is more worried about killing 13,000 spikes, 14,300 any bull, and over 14,000 pregnant cows than having the greatest mature bull elk hunting in the world. All I can say is they better build the heard size back up and then some because those wolves are going to be hungry when they get here. These number do not include the limited entry bull unit tag numbers.
> 
> -Doyle Moss
> 
> 
> 
> Goofy, do you agree or disagree with his sentiment?
Click to expand...

No, I don't for the most part,,,,And here are a few thoughts about it.

The 14,300 general any bull tags really don't affect L/E hunts at all..

The antler less hunts are absolutely necessary to control elk herd sizes,
BUT have been over done on some units, amount of permits & hunt dates.

I do not like the state wide spike hunts, it did not affect units like Manti
or the Wasatch the way they seem to be impacting say the Phavant, 
Monroe, Stansbury, even the West deserts elk herds..
Big bull numbers and Quality 'size wise' is declining almost state wide..
*I hearing the average age bulls harvested state wide has also fell....*

There are going to be significant tag cuts for L/E elk hunting in 2011.[/quote:6g2tb5kb]

And there lies the problem, so the knee jerk reaction is to cut tags because we aren't meeting "age objectives", even though we have excess mature bull on nearly every unit.

I know the gentlemen that held the state record for elk for a few weeks back in September of 1999, it was a 390 bull. I am not sure if it was that year or the next year when the first 400 class bull was killed. Since then that has been the measure of success, a 400 in bull. Most people have a hard time scoring elk on the hoof, me included. Most people "think" they will only shoot a 370"+ bull until they shoot what they "think" is a 370"+ bull and it ends up being a 330" bull. A 330" bull is very nice and most people will not shoot one even close to that size in their lifetime, but to many they think that is a failure if they shoot something that size. Anyways enough with my rant, like Tree said, this sounds like posturing to me for the upcoming elk plan.


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## Muley73

Ok here is a question for the gallery. Utah seems more than capable of growing elk. Big bulls , little bulls and cows. Why are we not pushing to expand the herd dramatically. We might as well have something to hunt? Stop shooting cows and we could greatly increase all types of bull permits.


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## goofy elk

jahan, If they do reduce L/E elk permit numbers because harvest reports are showing 
the average age bulls are falling below objective they are following the elk management 
plan......................I would not call that a knee jerk.


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## jahan

goofy elk said:


> jahan, If they do reduce L/E elk permit numbers because harvest reports are showing
> the average age bulls are falling below objective they are following the elk management
> plan......................I would not call that a knee jerk.


You are correct, they are following the elk management plan. I guess my point is age objectives is such a poor way to manage elk.


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## jahan

Muley73 said:


> Ok here is a question for the gallery. Utah seems more than capable of growing elk. Big bulls , little bulls and cows. Why are we not pushing to expand the herd dramatically. We might as well have something to hunt? Stop shooting cows and we could greatly increase all types of bull permits.


You are right and we should also bring in truck loads of Whitetails and feral pigs so we can have something to hunt besides just elk. :O•-:


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger

What a jerk. Heaven forbid the common man gets to hunt. :roll:


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## Muley73

Jahan,
Sorry my bad I was not clear on that question. I did not mean the peanut gallery. But thanks for being involved.


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## proutdoors

Huntoholic said:


> Our wolves (special interest groups) are already here.........


A-FREAKING-MEN!

I don't know where to even attempt to begin on this. I am completely flabbergasted by the audacity and arrogance shown by this pompous asshat. To think I once worked for him.


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## proutdoors

I seem to recall PROMISES and assurances that the new elk harvest age objectives would NOT result in a decline of Limited Entry permits. Of course that was a long time ago........it was clear back in March of 2010. :? This is the SAME group and the SAME Wildlife Board that just turned the deer plan upside down that several want us to trust to not make the impending permit cuts for deer. I have one thing to ask these people: *WTF DO YOU THINK NOW?*

If the Wildlife Board caves and caters to the likes of this jack wagon who claims to be the premier 'trophy' guide in the west, the wolves are the least of our troubles.


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## proutdoors

I wonder if Mr Asshat will be refusing to guide hunters who BUY conservation permits? I mean, if he is so **** worried about the 'poor' state of the elk herd (NOT "heard" as the genius typed it) he should be abstaining from ALL guided elk hunts in Utah.


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## hazmat

who cares what doyle does or thinks belive it or not he is an avereage joe dont build his head up


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## proutdoors

hazmat said:


> who cares what doyle does or thinks belive it or not he is an avereage joe dont build his head up


Sadly, this guy DOES have lots of pull with the Wildlife Board, which determines how many permits are issued each year. So, you **** well better care what he says!


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## Muley73

Man you guys on this site blow me away sometimes. "asshat" really......really? Is that the best way you can express yourself? Not a Doyle fan either way, but Bart you are smarter than what your last few posts have represented! 

If Doyle is so powerful why would represent opposition with posts like that? I just don't get this site I guess? :?


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## proutdoors

I wanted to say a lot worse!  What do you call such an arrogant pompous person? I am guessing you agree with him........


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## Muley73

Nope but thanks for thinking so highly of me. If we do ever get together for lunch I'll be really selective in my choice of "hats"!!!

Just thought you want to be looked at differently. Some might think "asshat" is funny. But not something I would expect to read from you, guess I give you to much credit in trying to step up and lead a change.

I have read your elk ideas on mins from a meeting I found on the net. I liked alot of what your plan proposed. Not 100%, but very similar to my thoughts. Something me and my Pa don't always agree on.


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## proutdoors

Muley73 said:


> Just thought you want to be looked at differently. Some might think "asshat" is funny. But not something I would expect to read from you, guess I give you to much credit in trying to step up and lead a change.


I am NOT leading anything. And, I intended no humor in my commentary of this issue. Maybe I should have tempered my shared opinions on this, but I suppose it hit too close to home for my liking. Maybe with all that has been going on in my personal life has affected my views, but it chaps my hide that someone in such a position would make such misleading (LIES) comments. To whine about 'only' five bulls exceeding 400" is beyond inane. This sums up the entitlement attitude to a tee.


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## Muley73

"The one standing on the stump yelling the loudest is usually looking to lead"
Muley73 2011
You seem to like quotes.


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## proutdoors

I haven't the time nor the desire at this point to 'lead'. There are many far better suited to do so than me, and I am lucky enough to know several of them.


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## Muley73

More than I, pro. I'm am more of a court jester in the House of Ill Temperment! :lol:


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## blackdog

So Doyle isn't going to guide the Gov. elk tag holder any more, BFD. What kind of stupid protest is that? 

Let me get this straight. So a guy buys the Gov. elk tag and wants to pay Doyle thousands of $$$ to guide him to a bull and in some sort of protest Doyle is going to refuse to make money for his own business? Someone explain to me why this is even an issue and why anyone would care?


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## Guest

is this just a place where its ok for grown men to cry about the dumbest things?? who cares! this doesnt effect you in any way!! doyle can do what he wants to do. its his life, his business and his choice. NOT YOURS! quit crying and making a huge deal over something that concerns none of you.


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## JERRY

blackdog said:


> So Doyle isn't going to guide the Gov. elk tag holder any more, BFD. What kind of stupid protest is that?
> 
> Let me get this straight. So a guy buys the Gov. elk tag and wants to pay Doyle thousands of $$$ to guide him to a bull and in some sort of protest Doyle is going to refuse to make money for his own business? Someone explain to me why this is even an issue and why anyone would care?


Because he gets paid more for the score of the elk, and if it isn't big enough he feels that his pay check isn't worth it. :roll: More or less it's an excuse for not being able to produce for his clients anymore!


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## COOPERD

There is plenty of great guides in utah, for the governors tag. I think it would be cool to see someone pull off a sweet bull, say thanks to someone besides mossback.


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## Treehugnhuntr

kill_'em_all said:


> is this just a place where its ok for grown men to cry about the dumbest things?? who cares! this doesnt effect you in any way!! doyle can do what he wants to do. its his life, his business and his choice. NOT YOURS! quit crying and making a huge deal over something that concerns none of you.


It has more to do with us (Who like to hunt elk in Utah) than many realize. If it were just some gossip about a notorious elk guide, I certainly wouldn't be commenting. The implications of such a comment from someone who has influence and is well connected is indicative of what certain folks are pushing for, and that is a big reduction in LE elk tags. It would be fine with me if such a thing happened, I'm camping on quite a few elk points and wouldn't mind it being a bit easier to shoot a trophy bull, but I doubt most people feel this way.

Dunno, didn't they do a survey not too long ago? Yes.


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## TEX-O-BOB

kill_'em_all said:


> is this just a place where its ok for grown men to cry about the dumbest things?? who cares! this doesnt effect you in any way!! doyle can do what he wants to do. its his life, his business and his choice. NOT YOURS! quit crying and making a huge deal over something that concerns none of you.


The hell it doesn't! haven't you read any of this thread? Doyle has huge pull with both FSW AND the DWR. If he cries and whines about there not being 400 bulls behind every tree they'll do something about it and make even MORE restrictions and give out LESS tags for an already grossly overabundant elk herd. His selfish arrogant statement just re-confirms what I've always known about Doyle Moss for ten years. I HATE the way he is allowed to make a living pimping OUR wildlife out to the guy with the fattest wallet. When special interest groups took over and set up shop in this state it paved the way for money grubbing whores to make a living by selling our wildlife out the back door. People like Doyle Moss call it Guiding, :roll: I call it bounty hunting. It should be illegal, and YOU should be outraged!

Wake up dude!


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## BPturkeys

TEX-O-BOB said:


> [quote="kill_'em_all":1qc39wx9]is this just a place where its ok for grown men to cry about the dumbest things?? who cares! this doesnt effect you in any way!! doyle can do what he wants to do. its his life, his business and his choice. NOT YOURS! quit crying and making a huge deal over something that concerns none of you.


The hell it doesn't! haven't you read any of this thread? Doyle has huge pull with both FSW AND the DWR. If he cries and whines about there not being 400 bulls behind every tree they'll do something about it and make even MORE restrictions and give out LESS tags for an already grossly overabundant elk herd. His selfish arrogant statement just re-confirms what I've always known about Doyle Moss for ten years. I HATE the way he is allowed to make a living pimping OUR wildlife out to the guy with the fattest wallet. *When special interest groups took over and set up shop in this state it paved the way for money grubbing whores to make a living by selling our wildlife out the back door*. People like Doyle Moss call it Guiding, :roll: I call it bounty hunting. It should be illegal, and YOU should be outraged!

Wake up dude![/quote:1qc39wx9]

Just wanted to add that ALL you guys out there that support/encourage/stand-in-line-for your chance to kill a "Quality" elk(defined as a "400" bull by Mr. Moss and all you other "trophy" hunters) have brought this whole LE/TrophyHunter mentality on your ownselves! Mr. Moss is simply a business man doing normal business. The oldest rule of business...supply and demand is at work here...increase demand by limiting availability (LE HUNT areas) and enhancing product (manage for larger horned animals) and you can both increase your foot traffic AND raise your prices! The real goal of all guides is to only have to do one hunt a year and make so much money on it that no more business is needed. You want to stop this "pimping" of our wildlife???...stop the insane management for "larger horn" via the use on LE hunts!


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## Guest

o my hell guys. i cant believe how much you guys love to cry about only certain things. its life. it happens. it wont change no matter how much you bitch. the WB has their own agenda that we are not apart of, as the made so evident when they passed the new 2012 deer hunting laws. get over it, it doesnt matter any more. in a not so distant future, hunting will be a thing of the past for the average joe. only guys with $$$$$$$$ will be the ones hunting. thats just how it is


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## jahan

kill_'em_all said:


> o my hell guys. i cant believe how much you guys love to cry about only certain things. its life. it happens. it wont change no matter how much you bitch. the WB has their own agenda that we are not apart of, as the made so evident when they passed the new 2012 deer hunting laws. get over it, it doesnt matter any more. in a not so distant future, hunting will be a thing of the past for the average joe. only guys with $$$$$$$$ will be the ones hunting. thats just how it is


This kind of attitude is what is wrong with the system, everyone just assumes it is what it is, the WB and special interest groups have there way with us without any lube. I am hear to say I believe that it can and will change, there is quite a group of average joes out there that have had enough and are willing to take this head on.


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## middlefork

Kind of funny really. I looked at his website a couple of years ago during the Spidey fiasco.
At that time he said he would not guide the Gov tag because the time and effort involved was not worth it anymore. Times change I guess.


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## a_bow_nut

kill_'em_all said:


> only guys with $$$$$$$$ will be the ones hunting. thats just how it is


That statement would lead me to belive you must have some $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Or you are just going to give up on hunting to care so little about it.


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## yfzduner450

First, I will give Doyle the benefit of the doubt and say that just maybe his website got hacked. Look at the font and the way it is written, it just doesn't match the rest of the site. 

Secondly, if it wasn't hacked he is the dumbest motherf**ker I've ever seen. Even dogs are smart enough to not sh*t where they eat. Wait until next time he wants more tags from the state, I'd love for them to reject that dumba** and watch his business fall to pieces because of his own ignorance.


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## MadHunter

yfzduner450 said:


> First, I will give Doyle the benefit of the doubt and say that just maybe his website got hacked. Look at the font and the way it is written, it just doesn't match the rest of the site.


The reason for that is because his website is done in plain HTML. Very rudimentary code so you get a rudimentary look and feel to it. All that says to me is that he has a low budget for his website developers.

My opinion on this statement.... Makes me wonder why he thinks he is entitled to have the state provide top notch merchandise for him with the peoples money. Also, if as he stated Utah is trying to get rid of so many elk; Does he not care that the deer herds will have a bit more room to grow with a reduction in elk numbers? Of course not. More money in elk!

To me it's a self serving statement that denotes he is an arrogant pompous ass. And yes we should be concerned..... power is his tool and he has a lot of it.


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## proutdoors

kill_'em_all said:


> o my hell guys. i cant believe how much you guys love to cry about only certain things. its life. it happens. it wont change no matter how much you bitch. the WB has their own agenda that we are not apart of, as the made so evident when they passed the new 2012 deer hunting laws. get over it, it doesnt matter any more. in a not so distant future, hunting will be a thing of the past for the average joe. only guys with $$$$$$$$ will be the ones hunting. thats just how it is


I am shocked when I see someone promoting such apathy and having a defeatist attitude. Is it really that crazy to think people can unite and make an impact on issues? I witnessed the power of people coming together for a common cause many times over, from the huge ouster of politicians this last November to SFW being started 15 years ago. Think about it, SFW has not been around since the caveman stood erect, so why is it impossible to rein them in? The Wildlife Board has only been in existence for lease than two decades, there is nothing saying they have unchecked power and we have to abide their decisions and not raise a stink of we are 'foolish' enough to disagree with their policies. The Wildlife Board was created, and the Wildlife Board can be tweaked or dismantled and replaced with something else.


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## bullsnot

BPturkeys said:


> Just wanted to add that ALL you guys out there that support/encourage/stand-in-line-for your chance to kill a "Quality" elk(defined as a "400" bull by Mr. Moss and all you other "trophy" hunters) have brought this whole LE/TrophyHunter mentality on your ownselves!


BP I usually like your posts but I have to take exception to this one. As a Utah hunter I can only work with what I'm given. I have had NO VOICE WHAT SO EVER in what system is in place. Since the DWR has a monopoly on Utah wildlife I don't have the opportunity to shop around. I either apply for what I can or be left out completely.

Now to be fair I have never had a major problem with the LE system, but this is becoming like a disease. We are no longer just trying to have great elk hunting in Utah, we are now trying to keep up with the Jones's. It seems Doyle is boycotting because we don't have the best in the world. The real problem is that some are calling for change because this last year was down. Guys we can't continue to rewrite the record books every year. There has to be an end. There has to be down years.


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## Guest

proutdoors said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> 
> o my hell guys. i cant believe how much you guys love to cry about only certain things. its life. it happens. it wont change no matter how much you bitch. the WB has their own agenda that we are not apart of, as the made so evident when they passed the new 2012 deer hunting laws. get over it, it doesnt matter any more. in a not so distant future, hunting will be a thing of the past for the average joe. only guys with $$$$$$$$ will be the ones hunting. thats just how it is
> 
> 
> 
> I am shocked when I see someone promoting such apathy and having a defeatist attitude. Is it really that crazy to think people can unite and make an impact on issues? I witnessed the power of people coming together for a common cause many times over, from the huge ouster of politicians this last November to SFW being started 15 years ago. Think about it, SFW has not been around since the caveman stood erect, so why is it impossible to rein them in? The Wildlife Board has only been in existence for lease than two decades, there is nothing saying they have unchecked power and we have to abide their decisions and not raise a stink of we are 'foolish' enough to disagree with their policies. The Wildlife Board was created, and the Wildlife Board can be tweaked or dismantled and replaced with something else.
Click to expand...

where the hell was everyone who cared about utah deer hunting when they were deciding on the changes for 2012?? ALOT of people were fighting to stop it. did it make any difference? NOPE!! they just went a head and did it since they thought it was a great idea and it would improve the quality of the deer herd. why did most people support this change? to INCREASE THE SIZE OF THE DEER HERD AND THE SIZE OF BUCKS BEING KILLED. same issue we are going to have with the elk hunting. we had little, if any effect on their decision on that change as sportsmen.


a_bow_nut said:


> [quote="kill_'em_all":1ys3u4rl]only guys with $$$$$$$$ will be the ones hunting. thats just how it is


That statement would lead me to belive you must have some $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Or you are just going to give up on hunting to care so little about it.[/quote:1ys3u4rl]
hmmmm...... well maybe your wrong. maybe youre right. either way its none of your business. i love hunting more then most people. i hunt atleast 90 days of the year, most of that time is spent in utah. do i support the changes and decisions being made? ABSOLUTELY NOT! but its going to happen wether we support it or not. especially with SFW thrown into the mix. go ahead and fight the changes. ill be more then happy to fight with you. i think the WB, SFW, and even sometimes the DWR are crooks. they have their own agendas for things that they think need to happen and take little into consideration what we the people want. times are changing. i dont know how all you people run your fantasy worlds, but in the real world things are getting more and more expensive. i hate saying this, but basicly you have to pay to play in just about every aspect of life these days. nothing is free anymore. doyle can do what he wants to do. its his life. he may or may not have pull with the people in charge. but in the end its his decision. he has the right to do whatever he wants to. hes already one of the most hated hunters/guides around, so do you think he cares what your opinion is?? hell no. he has every sportsmans dream job. he gets to hunt for a living. i'd love to make a great living off something i live for.


jahan said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> 
> o my hell guys. i cant believe how much you guys love to cry about only certain things. its life. it happens. it wont change no matter how much you bitch. the WB has their own agenda that we are not apart of, as the made so evident when they passed the new 2012 deer hunting laws. get over it, it doesnt matter any more. in a not so distant future, hunting will be a thing of the past for the average joe. only guys with $$$$$$$$ will be the ones hunting. thats just how it is
> 
> 
> 
> This kind of attitude is what is wrong with the system, everyone just assumes it is what it is, the WB and special interest groups have there way with us without any lube. I am hear to say I believe that it can and will change, there is quite a group of average joes out there that have had enough and are willing to take this head on.
Click to expand...

good luck! i'll be one of those people fighting with you!


----------



## Guest

im glad we have places like this where its ok for grown adults, mostly men, to cry about things! "...thats it. let it all out. its all gonna be ok"  :roll:


----------



## blackdog

:roll:


----------



## proutdoors

kill_'em_all said:


> im glad we have places like this where its ok for grown adults, mostly men, to cry about things! "...thats it. let it all out. its all gonna be ok"  :roll:


And you think you are acting 'grown up'? :O•-:

So, since the WB went against the wishes of the majority, we should just 'take it' and live with it? Not this cowboy! How many people showed up at the WB meeting in December? Way less than 100, and that is my point. If 1000 showed up, or 10,000 showed up at the WB meeting do you really think they would have ignored them? Expecting complete change overnight is not realistic, DEMANDING change by getting involved and not QUITTING is the only real solution.


----------



## Huge29

kill_'em_all said:


> im glad we have places like this where its ok for grown adults, mostly men, to cry about things! "...thats it. let it all out. its all gonna be ok"  :roll:


It is unfortunate that you apparently live such a hopeless life!


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

It sure seems that way. Dude is living under a black cloud.

Anything we can do to make your life better? Seriously, why the general negative outlook?


----------



## Guest

proutdoors said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> 
> im glad we have places like this where its ok for grown adults, mostly men, to cry about things! "...thats it. let it all out. its all gonna be ok"  :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> And you think you are acting 'grown up'? :O•-:
> 
> So, since the WB went against the wishes of the majority, we should just 'take it' and live with it? Not this cowboy! How many people showed up at the WB meeting in December? Way less than 100, and that is my point. If 1000 showed up, or 10,000 showed up at the WB meeting do you really think they would have ignored them? Expecting complete change overnight is not realistic, DEMANDING change by getting involved and not QUITTING is the only real solution.
Click to expand...

im not acting anymore immature then anyone else on here. heres the problem with your plan. people want to fight for their right in hunting. im with you as well as many others 100% on that. BUT! theres these things called jobs, responsibilities, obligations, families.... that a majority of these people have to tend to first. not everyone who gives a **** about this is going to be able to make it to express their opion. most people have other things going on during these meetings. yes they care alot about the stuff being discussed. but they have priorities!!!


Huge29 said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> 
> im glad we have places like this where its ok for grown adults, mostly men, to cry about things! "...thats it. let it all out. its all gonna be ok"  :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> It is unfortunate that you apparently live such a hopeless life!
Click to expand...

thanks  im glad you are intelligent enough to gather my whole lifes story from a few simple words...


----------



## BPturkeys

bullsnot said:


> BPturkeys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just wanted to add that ALL you guys out there that support/encourage/stand-in-line-for your chance to kill a "Quality" elk(defined as a "400" bull by Mr. Moss and all you other "trophy" hunters) have brought this whole LE/TrophyHunter mentality on your ownselves!
> 
> 
> 
> BP I usually like your posts but I have to take exception to this one. As a Utah hunter I can only work with what I'm given. I have had NO VOICE WHAT SO EVER in what system is in place. Since the DWR has a monopoly on Utah wildlife I don't have the opportunity to shop around. I either apply for what I can or be left out completely.
> 
> Now to be fair I have never had a major problem with the LE system, but this is becoming like a disease. We are no longer just trying to have great elk hunting in Utah, we are now trying to keep up with the Jones's. It seems Doyle is boycotting because we don't have the best in the world. The real problem is that some are calling for change because this last year was down. Guys we can't continue to rewrite the record books every year. There has to be an end. There has to be down years.
Click to expand...

I hear ya Bulls, I realize that young people just want to hunt, just want to go hunting and I believe they deserve that chance. It is just a shame that so many young people(many not so young anymore) have bought into the idea that the success of a hunt is judged by the size of the horn. They have allowed themselves to believe that ANY cost is justified in that quest to kill a "trophy". There is no doubt that limiting hunting through LE hunts on prime habitat will produce larger herds...but this well intentioned practice has now morphed into an opportunity limiting scheme that is nothing more than a state subsidy for guides and their horn hungry clients. The elk herds are more than sufficient now to no longer use the LE system as a management tool for herd's improvement. I call for an end to the LE system. It's time we allow our citizens the opportunity to take their families hunting again, take them to the prime hunting areas, and reestablish that grand tradition that us older hunters had.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

kill_'em_all said:


> theres these things called jobs, responsibilities, obligations, families.... that a majority of these people have to tend to first. not everyone who gives a **** about this is going to be able to make it to express their opion. most people have other things going on during these meetings. yes they care alot about the stuff being discussed. but they have priorities!!!


Exactly, "priorities". I tend to a family, a full time job and a business. If it matters enough, you will do what it takes; with anything, not just wildlife issues.

Sounds a lot like an excuse to be apathetic, but I am open to being wrong.


----------



## Nambaster

This is a classic "i am taking my ball and going home thing". I am loving every second of it. Finally someone doesn't get an unfair advantage just because their parents bought them a shiny ball.


----------



## Huge29

Nambaster said:


> This is a classic "i am taking my ball and going home thing". I am loving every second of it. Finally someone doesn't get an unfair advantage just because their parents bought them a shiny ball.


That is true, the problem is that is not where it ends. Doyle is one with a lot of pull and in this goofy WB setup could pull off some changes that are just as ridiculous as the deer changes that were just made.


----------



## Guest

Treehugnhuntr said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> 
> theres these things called jobs, responsibilities, obligations, families.... that a majority of these people have to tend to first. not everyone who gives a **** about this is going to be able to make it to express their opion. most people have other things going on during these meetings. yes they care alot about the stuff being discussed. but they have priorities!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, "priorities". I tend to a family, a full time job and a business. If it matters enough, you will do what it takes; with anything, not just wildlife issues.
> 
> Sounds a lot like an excuse to be apathetic, but I am open to being wrong.
Click to expand...

 i do what it takes. i was there to tell them my opinion. and even with the people we did have, they didnt listen, which is exactly my point! they never will unless someone who actually has ears gets a postion! i dont see that happening any time soon. until then, no matter how hard we scream, we're still screwed. thats all i am trying to say. i care about these issues just as much as anyone. but its not possible for everyone needed to be there. unless we are there in large numbers, its not going to do any good! so instead people get on here and cry about the issues instead of fighting them!


----------



## MadHunter

Remeber when 12000 sportsmen marched on capitol hill? Well now that SFW exists they speak through those 12000 voices. What we need to do is establish a full charter organization get member numbers up and weild those numbers in the face of the WB. I know it sounds a lot like another SFW but it can be different.

I know there are minds on this forum far supperior than mine that can get this going I am just wondering who so I can back them up. We have to organize to fight a good fight.


----------



## mack1950

+1 for goofy elks post i totally agree that the spike hunt on the smaller units is having a devistating effect on 
these unit s ask anyone who has been keeping track of the hunt on the oquirh/standsbury unit. i asked a dwr 
offical last year about why in the world espically on the standsbury side would you want a spike hunt. his statement shocked me a bit when he said there is only a handfull of elk on that side of the valley and they 
were not a big concern to the division. that really makes a guy wonder just what the heck there worried about when the biggest bulls taken of the oquirh/standsbury unit have ALL come from that side of the mountain. up to know the only elk hunting in my lifetime has been limited entry bulls and know antlerless so the introduction of spike hunting is not called for and is doing more damage than good other than putting a few more dollors into the pot.


----------



## mikevanwilder

> im not acting anymore immature then anyone else on here. heres the problem with your plan. people want to fight for their right in hunting. im with you as well as many others 100% on that. BUT! theres these things called jobs, responsibilities, obligations, families.... that a majority of these people have to tend to first. not everyone who gives a **** about this is going to be able to make it to express their opion. most people have other things going on during these meetings. yes they care alot about the stuff being discussed. but they have priorities!!!


I have all those things and live in Podunk Utah yet I still let my feelings be know. We have state senators and state reps. for a reason. Hell you can even write the Gov. and tell him your feelings. They are supposed to be working for us not the other way around. Its people like you kill 'em all that make it harder for those who are actually trying to make a difference. They want everyone to think like you, "oh well things didn't go the way I wanted guess theres nothing I can do" Don't just bend over and let them have their way with you. Stand up and fight!


----------



## COOPERD

I just dont understand his posts. In one breath we are all crybabys cause we are airing out our feelings on a wildlife forum, the next breath he says he will fight a losing fight with us. Pretty wishy washy. He would be perfect for politics. Mad hunter is right, why not start something to represent the average hunter?


----------



## Gaston

Spike hunts and the late hunts. Can you say '' OVER HARVEST''


----------



## Guest

COOPERD said:


> I just dont understand his posts. In one breath we are all crybabys cause we are airing out our feelings on a wildlife forum, the next breath he says he will fight a losing fight with us. Pretty wishy washy. He would be perfect for politics. Mad hunter is right, why not start something to represent the average hunter?


they are all cry babies! who really gives a **** about what doyle moss does!? i sure as hell dont and neither should anyone else! its his life not theirs! there are way better things to talk about! he might have pull with certain people, but not enough to make a difference! hes one person for god sake. not a whole army. and he especially doesnt have many supporters around here or neighboring states. so i ask you. if he is just one person with maybe a small army, shouldnt we be able to fight him with the large army that you guys are a part of?! the answer you are looking for is YES! i am willing to fight! i dont agree with some of the things being done. but im not going to make an issue over something such as this. that is stupid. elk hunting sucks in utah as it is. it takes 12+ years for most people to draw a quality tag, which translates into 1 MAYBE 2 LE elk tags in a life time! so wouldnt everyone want a chance at a trophy quality OIL bull??? i sure would! no one wants to wait 12 years for a 280 5x6. might as well make elk hunting the quality it should be for that long of a wait. as long as i can hunt cows every few years with my bow or rifle, im good with changing the way the elk herds are being managed. might as well take up and use the empty space that the muledeer herds are leaving due to extinction... if doyle is partly responsible for making it happen, then go doyle!


----------



## Gaston

I agree KILL'M, the quality of the Bulls are slipping and I think it's from over harvest. If he can get something going to stop this.... GO DOYLE !!!!


----------



## COOPERD

I am curious what the exact numbers are for the unit I am putting in for. I have 12 points and have put in since I was in high school. Of course I want to shoot a monster the bigger the better, but realistically if I shot a 340 bull I would be stoked as hell. I am ready to start putting in for deer. I would take a 180 buck any day over a 340 bull.


----------



## goofy elk

Gaston said:


> Spike hunts and the late hunts. Can you say '' OVER HARVEST''


Yup , that sums it up.

The hard fact is big bulls are not near as abundant now as they were 
just a couple of years ago.........

And it just amazes me that some folks think we should issue MORE L/E elk tags.

I will personally be happy to see a cut in the neighborhood of 20% on the bull tags.

From what I'm seeing on the winter range this year, next fall will be tough to 
harvest a big bull on a lot of units that were once much better..


----------



## jahan

Gaston said:


> I agree KILL'M, the quality of the Bulls are slipping and I think it's from over harvest. If he can get something going to stop this.... GO DOYLE !!!!


Hell most units have bulls dieing of old age and outrageous cow to bull ratios. Bulls may be slipping from 20+ 400" bulls shot in one year to only 4, but Utah is still one of if not the best elk hunting in the state for size, now for opportunity, that is another thing.

For the record I don't like the later season cow hunts.

Goofy, when are you going to quit thinking about yourself and your guide business and start listening to what the masses want? Everyone of your posts reference quality this, inches that, it is sad state when people start having this mindset.


----------



## bullsnot

Jahan I like your last sentence. The game of inches has become so engrained in some folks they have foresaken everything else. It's like a father that is so involved in work that he forgets the very things he works for.

I'll be consistent and admit I like hunting big bulls as much as the next guy....just not at the expense of every other reason I call myself a hunter. I could understand if success rates were plummetting but instead we are talking about cutting 20% of our tags for 20 inches of horn. It's sad.


----------



## Guest

jahan said:


> For the record I don't like the later season cow hunts.
> 
> Goofy, when are you going to quit thinking about yourself and your guide business and start listening to what the masses want? Everyone of your posts reference quality this, inches that, it is sad state when people start having this mindset.


size of the horns is the main reason the general season deer hunt got ****** up! people arent willing to shoot 2 points anymore. thats all anyone cares about any more. its how it is. we have done it to ourselves. we are the only ones to blame. what are any other reasons for shed hunting these days? all people care about are the horns! thats why shed hunting has exploded in this state. its all about the horn porn! but go ahead. point your fingers are doyle and other people like him. just remember, when you point one finger, theres usually atleast 3 others pointing right back at you.

jahan, thats fine. dont participate in them. just gives me better odds when it comes to drawing a tag. cow hunts are needed. dont know if you've hunted elk much, but on some units, the only way to effectivly kill the numbers of cows they need to is by waiting for the snow to push them out into the open. without the cow hunts, most people would go years without killing an elk. i'll take a late season cow hunt over nothing any day of the week. ive got 3 points for cows and havent drawn and im putting for a pretty easy unit. its hard enough to draw a cow tag in this state so when i do draw, i better have opportunites at animals


----------



## svmoose

Its obvious from this thread that everyone has different expectations for a hunt. A state should manage for all hunters, not just trophy hunters, not just meat hunters. Utah is so set on one thing. They need to diversify and provide opportunities for hunters throughout the hunting spectrum.


----------



## Huntoholic

svmoose said:


> Its obvious from this thread that everyone has different expectations for a hunt. A state should manage for all hunters, not just trophy hunters, not just meat hunters. Utah is so set on one thing. They need to diversify and provide opportunities for hunters throughout the hunting spectrum.


Personally I think this is why we are where we are at, to much splitting into small pies. The simple fact is, if you make the herd healthy there will be large deer. Those that want to hunt for larger deer just need to hunt. They are there, just not around every corner. Why do we waste 180,000 huntable acres so a hand full of people can pick and choose, then let the scrubs just die of old age?


----------



## goofy elk

svmoose said:


> Its obvious from this thread that everyone has different expectations for a hunt. A state should manage for all hunters, not just trophy hunters, not just meat hunters. Utah is so set on one thing. They need to diversify and provide opportunities for hunters throughout the hunting spectrum.


This is the thing I don't understand about some Utah's hunters mind set...

Utah has MORE opportunity and diversity than any other western state!

Over half the state has been general season deer..
13,000 spike elk tags hunt-able on ALL elk units..
14,300 any bull general season tags...
STATE wide UNLIMITED archery elk tags,,,,,spike & general..
Almost 20,000 antler less permits available..

This is on top of all the limited entry and OIAL tags offered in the draw!!
And jahan,,,I'm about inches on L/E hunts.
And about cows "antler less" and what ever my family wants to harvest
that is legal for MY freezer.....


----------



## BPturkeys

goofy elk said:


> svmoose said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its obvious from this thread that everyone has different expectations for a hunt. A state should manage for all hunters, not just trophy hunters, not just meat hunters. Utah is so set on one thing. They need to diversify and provide opportunities for hunters throughout the hunting spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the thing I don't understand about some Utah's hunters mind set......no Goofy, you simply do not understand, that's OK, we understand...pretty darn simple, let me say it again...YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND! You have been making your living guiding for so long that you have literally lost track of the rest of us hunters out there. You're like Marie Antonette..."just let them eat cake"
> 
> Utah has MORE opportunity and diversity than any other western state!..yup, you're right in one way...we have lots of different choices...we can start waiting for a chance to hunt in the best areas of the start or we can go ahead and hunt in the "other half" of the state, really?...sounds like we can save all our money for years and years so we can buy a Porsche or we can go ahead and hop the bus to get where we want to go.
> 
> Over half the state has been general season deer.....why only half, ****, I thought I paid for a whole license, I thought I was a whole citizen, I thought I had a whole set of human rights, I thought..oh well...guess that's what I get for doin my own thinking...please pass the cake.
> 
> 13,000 spike elk tags hunt-able on ALL elk units.. OK, I'll say good...must be driving you guides crazy to have that many guys stomping around on your little private hunting grounds.
> 
> 14,300 any bull general season tags...
> STATE wide UNLIMITED archery elk tags,,,,,spike & general..
> Almost 20,000 antler less permits available..
> 
> This is on top of all the limited entry and OIAL tags offered in the draw!!
> And jahan,,,I'm about inches on L/E hunts....oh, I think it's pretty clear what you're about Goofy
> 
> And about cows "antler less" and what ever my family wants to harvest
> that is legal for MY freezer.....
Click to expand...

Goofy, just go back and re-read the posts, with the exception of a couple guys with lots of points that they don't want to loss, and a few of your guide buddies...you are being shouted down over and over and over...doesn't that tell you anythink!

One more thing...most of us don't have a problem with guides, it's just that you have become a "special interest group" that is determined to have the state subsidize your industry by limiting oppotunity(product availablity) which in turn increases your profits(supply and demand).


----------



## goofy elk

BP,,,,,Do you think it is still 1975?

BP,,,,Do you think ELIMANATING limited entry hunts in Utah would be a good thing?

BP,,,Do you think a deer tag gives you the right to hunt state wide and year round?

BP,,,Have you ever looked at how our surrounding western states conduct hunting?

BP,,,Have you ever applied for a limited entry hunt?

BP,,,Have you ever seen the Henry's, The Book Cliffs, OR the Paunsaugunt?

And hey,,this is kind'a fun...


----------



## svmoose

goofy elk said:


> This is the thing I don't understand about some Utah's hunters mind set...
> 
> Utah has MORE opportunity and diversity than any other western state!
> 
> Over half the state has been general season deer..
> 13,000 spike elk tags hunt-able on ALL elk units..
> 14,300 any bull general season tags...
> STATE wide UNLIMITED archery elk tags,,,,,spike & general..
> Almost 20,000 antler less permits available..
> 
> This is on top of all the limited entry and OIAL tags offered in the draw!!
> And jahan,,,I'm about inches on L/E hunts.
> And about cows "antler less" and what ever my family wants to harvest
> that is legal for MY freezer.....


I'm not really sure what that first sentence means, and I know the answer to this question already, but have you ever hunted outside of Utah?

Half the state has been general season deer where the masses can go out and chase the same forky around in their four wheelers until it gets killed. I think I read that you don't even hunt deer in Utah. Is that because your expectations have been met while hunting deer in Utah?

Spike hunts are for spike hunters. That is on one extreme end. I don't want to go out and only be able to kill a yearling every year. When harvest is so selective, it takes some of the fun out of it IMO. (I know there are other hunters like me, and others who will disagree and I understand that).

Anybull hunts are not was I consider middle ground either. These hunts have some of the worst success rates in all of elk hunting.

Once again unlimited statewide elk hunting. Kill a spike, or a cow. Great! 

Antlerless tags are great, but it just extends the already long hunting season a few more months.

Then lets suddenly jump to the trophy hunts, where if you want a crack at a big bull with anything other than archery equipment on a unit with any fair amount of public land you are looking at 10+ years. People make jokes about shooting 280 bulls in Utah! A 280 bull almost anywhere else is an accomplishment and the hunter should be very proud.

I understand that Utah has a lot of options, but I feel like, given the resources available, there could be a much better plan that would provide a myriad of experiences for hunters in Utah. By experiences I mean allowing hunters to choose and hunt in the way they want to with reasonable odds at harvesting an animal.


----------



## svmoose

Personally I think this is why we are where we are at, to much splitting into small pies. The simple fact is, if you make the herd healthy there will be large deer. Those that want to hunt for larger deer just need to hunt. They are there, just not around every corner. Why do we waste 180,000 huntable acres so a hand full of people can pick and choose, then let the scrubs just die of old age?[/quote]

I agree with you that we need healthy herds. The deer herd is not in great shape right now, but I'll be the first to say that there are big bucks all over the state, and you need to put the time in to find them. I don't know why we waste that many acres. What I'm saying is it's either poor herd health and few bucks, or a ton of bucks dying of old age. Where's the middle ground that a guy could hunt ever couple years and have a legitimate crack at a nice buck?


----------



## dark_cloud

svmoose said:


> Anybull hunts are not was I consider middle ground either. These hunts have some of the worst success rates in all of elk hunting.


Do you think that the rest of the state will be better? For the first year or two it would be real good. You want to open all of the LE units? Thats like building a bridge and then destroying it when your done. I remember when the wasatch was open bull, the hunting sucked. We have all of the elk because of the management of the le elk units. We went to LE units because people were crying that we need to help the elk herds out, now you guys are crying because you want to shoot them all. If you want to hunt big bulls, go hunt an open bull unit. You say the success rate is low, how do you know? Did you just look at the numbers online and decide it was low, or did you actually get out and hunt? Are the open bull units to hard for you guys to hunt, because you actually have to get out of the truck and hike? Nobody makes any sense, you all want a tag. And some of you sound like you dont care if you destroy what took 20 years to build.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

You're right, everyone is screaming for OTC elk statewide. :roll: Come on, there aren't only 2 choices and your comment regarding this is complete hyperbole. We can still manage for more diversity. Earlier someone mentioned there being a rough 50/50 split between LE and general season, BULL****. Get your proclamation out and do the deductive reasoning.

A VERY small portion of the state is managed for any bull and much of what is considered "any bull" is desolate and virtually elk free.

Somewhere in between is what is being eluded to. Managing every unit to ridiculous age classes, so tags can be sold for outrageous prices is complete nonsense, but so is killing all of the elk off. The difference is, no one is suggesting to kill all the elk off, or just open the state up to being slaughtered, but many are suggesting and potentially implementing yet another loss of opportunity and reduction in tags.

The go to for unfounded biased claims by people who support restricted opportunity in lieu of inches and money is always to go to the extreme and claim that supporters of opportunity would kill every last animal if they could. It is asinine, stupid, and flat out a lie, indicative of a lack of character and intelligence.

Flame away.


----------



## dark_cloud

I think they have increased the number of LE tags.....look at the wasatch over the last 5-7 years. The tags doubled and the quality of bulls are dropping. Should we double them again and make it a LE hunt for 280 and smaller class bulls, that are only reaching an age of 3-4 years old? Where are you guys going to draw the line? What do you guys want as a whole? More elk tags, but smaller bulls. You can draw some of the elk tags with 6-8 points, thats pretty good. Put in for those units if you just want a chance to hunt bulls. The LE hunts dont have anything to do with managing for quanity its quality. If we managed for quanity and had lots of tags and raghorn bulls, you would still be crying because of the size of the bulls being killed or to many elk and they are pushing the deer herds to record lows. So again what is it that you guys want? An extra couple of tags per unit, or 100% increase on tags per unit? A couple of tags is not going to make much of a difference for drawing odds, but 100% increase will destroy the herds. What your answer?


----------



## Nambaster

Dark... I have 10 points and I can't draw a tag for the Cache South Unit on my own property. If I joined a CWMU I would be alloted a tag every year but that would exclude a lot of other hunters from hunting my property. At this rate I will be able to hunt my property 2 times throughout my lifetime. There are bulls that eat, sleep, and breed there that I just watch.

I am not proposing a slaughter, but at this point if I draw a tag I have a bull sitting on my door step bred by Doyle Moss. I am against joining the CWMU because it only a lots 1 tag for my entire family every year. There is no excitement hunting alone. It becomes more of a political hunt than an experience. There will always be big bulls, it only takes 1 bull to breed 100 cows. Quality management is entitlement hunting, if Spider bulls were around every corner the only person harvesting them would be those with the financial means.


----------



## goofy elk

I agree with dark_cloud,,,,

He is 100% correct.


----------



## goofy elk

Nambaster,,,,,JOIN THE CWMU!!!!!

Quote,
" I am against joining the CWMU because it only a lots 1 tag for my entire family every year. There is no excitement hunting alone."

You've got to be kidding? What on earth is wrong with getting 1 L/E south Cache elk tag EVERY YEAR
and passing it around the family??

All of you cant get together every year and enjoy a big bull hunt together? Just ask'in..


----------



## svmoose

dark_cloud said:


> svmoose said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anybull hunts are not was I consider middle ground either. These hunts have some of the worst success rates in all of elk hunting.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that the rest of the state will be better? For the first year or two it would be real good. You want to open all of the LE units? Thats like building a bridge and then destroying it when your done. I remember when the wasatch was open bull, the hunting sucked. We have all of the elk because of the management of the le elk units. We went to LE units because people were crying that we need to help the elk herds out, now you guys are crying because you want to shoot them all. If you want to hunt big bulls, go hunt an open bull unit. You say the success rate is low, how do you know? Did you just look at the numbers online and decide it was low, or did you actually get out and hunt? Are the open bull units to hard for you guys to hunt, because you actually have to get out of the truck and hike? Nobody makes any sense, you all want a tag. And some of you sound like you dont care if you destroy what took 20 years to build.
Click to expand...

Ha ha! I usually just sit in my truck to hunt. If you can't shoot them off the road then it isn't worth it.

And I never said to open the whole state to Anybull, I don't know where you got that out my previous posts. No one wants to go shoot all the elk. There can be some middle ground here. Not every unit in the state needs to be managed for the same thing. Managing for harvested animal age class is crazy anyway. There are plenty of guys who would be happy with a 280 bull. Why not manage some units that can be drawn every 4 -5 years where someone can kill a bull like that. Keep some as they are, even raise some, whatever. All I was saying is that it is very possible for there to be more options in regards to LE elk hunting in the state.


----------



## BPturkeys

goofy elk said:


> BP,,,,,Do you think it is still 1975?First off, we're not talkin about the last time I go layed here
> 
> BP,,,,Do you think ELIMANATING limited entry hunts in Utah would be a good thing?No, maybe not eliminate them all. I think a couple of areas would be OK, as is was first conceived back in the old days. A place where the hunting would be SO limited that the herds would multiply unmolested with the resulting number of larger bulls/bucks that you might expect...actually not too bad of idea. Noboby back then even dreamed the day would come when half the state would be closed except to only a very few hunters...which is EXACTLY what a LE unit does.
> 
> BP,,,Do you think a deer tag gives you the right to hunt state wide and year round?For the most part yes. If the biology supports my harvesting one deer...please explain to me why I can't harvest one deer. Maybe a few times of the year could and should be closed to hunting...midwinter for example, but why can't I hunt deer on say June 23rd, or July 11th...why, really why??
> 
> BP,,,Have you ever looked at how our surrounding western states conduct hunting?A little bit...and your point?
> 
> BP,,,Have you ever applied for a limited entry hunt? Sure, and your point again?
> 
> BP,,,Have you ever seen the Henry's, The Book Cliffs, OR the Paunsaugunt? 50 years of hunting has taken me to most of the State...once again...your point is??
> 
> And hey,,this is kind'a fun...


Your right, is pretty fun and I hope it can lead to better understanding and inproved hunting for the generations to come.


----------



## Nambaster

goofy elk said:


> Nambaster,,,,,JOIN THE CWMU!!!!!
> 
> Quote,
> " I am against joining the CWMU because it only a lots 1 tag for my entire family every year. There is no excitement hunting alone."
> 
> You've got to be kidding? What on earth is wrong with getting 1 L/E south Cache elk tag EVERY YEAR
> and passing it around the family??
> 
> All of you cant get together every year and enjoy a big bull hunt together? Just ask'in..


If I did this, as a CWMU we would also be allotted a limited amount of deer tags as well. Where we can currently hunt everybody every year it is not worth 1 glorious bull a year for 1 person for the sake of a family tradition lost.

I would rather hunt deer every year together as a family and work hard for a big buck rather than shoot a protected and sheltered elk allowed to breed year after year.


----------



## dark_cloud

So what is your answer to more tags? what units would you suggest giving more tags, and how many more tags ? If you are not going to at least double the tags the odds are still going to be hard to draw with the number of people with bonus points. And some units couldnt take that kind of hit. If you shoot more bulls, you will see the number drop so low in 3 years you wont have a herd to hunt, and it will be back to limited numers again. Thus starting all over again. So please explain how you would do this kind of management and what units you would pick?


----------



## MadHunter

kill_'em_all said:


> jahan said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the record I don't like the later season cow hunts.
> 
> Goofy, when are you going to quit thinking about yourself and your guide business and start listening to what the masses want? Everyone of your posts reference quality this, inches that, it is sad state when people start having this mindset.
> 
> 
> 
> size of the horns is the main reason the general season deer hunt got ****** up! people arent willing to shoot 2 points anymore. thats all anyone cares about any more. its how it is. we have done it to ourselves. we are the only ones to blame. what are any other reasons for shed hunting these days? all people care about are the horns! thats why shed hunting has exploded in this state. its all about the horn porn! but go ahead. point your fingers are doyle and other people like him. just remember, when you point one finger, theres usually atleast 3 others pointing right back at you.
> 
> jahan, thats fine. dont participate in them. just gives me better odds when it comes to drawing a tag. cow hunts are needed. dont know if you've hunted elk much, but on some units, the only way to effectivly kill the numbers of cows they need to is by waiting for the snow to push them out into the open. without the cow hunts, most people would go years without killing an elk. i'll take a late season cow hunt over nothing any day of the week. ive got 3 points for cows and havent drawn and im putting for a pretty easy unit. *its hard enough to draw a cow tag in this state so when i do draw, i better have opportunites at animals*
Click to expand...

Really dude? You BETTER have opportunities at them? I don't want to sound like an a$$ but that tells me you have some sense of entitlement. No one is entitled to anything. You want it earn it!

If i were to go off you statement there I guess it could be fair for me to say that after 16 years of waiting for my elk tag I *better* get a 400+ bull.

That my friend is Bull $h!t


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

BPturkeys said:


> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> BP,,,Do you think a deer tag gives you the right to hunt state wide and year round?For the most part yes. If the biology supports my harvesting one deer...please explain to me why I can't harvest one deer. Maybe a few times of the year could and should be closed to hunting...midwinter for example, but why can't I hunt deer on say June 23rd, or July 11th...why, really why??
Click to expand...

In all fairness, a tag doesn't translate to one deer that they want killed. The overall success rate is the #1 determining factor, so year long hunting would result in an overwhelming loss of opportunity.


----------



## BPturkeys

Treehugnhuntr said:


> BPturkeys said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> goofy elk said:
> 
> 
> 
> BP,,,Do you think a deer tag gives you the right to hunt state wide and year round?For the most part yes. If the biology supports my harvesting one deer...please explain to me why I can't harvest one deer. Maybe a few times of the year could and should be closed to hunting...midwinter for example, but why can't I hunt deer on say June 23rd, or July 11th...why, really why??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In all fairness, a tag doesn't translate to one deer that they want killed. The overall success rate is the #1 determining factor, so year long hunting would result in an overwhelming loss of opportunity.
Click to expand...

OK, I'll admit that limiting the lengths of hunts is a legitimate tool for controlling the overall number of animals harvested ("overall success rate") and you are right, after I give it a little more thought, it would cut down on the number of hunters that are allowed in the field. ****, this animal management is tricky business.


----------



## svmoose

dark_cloud said:


> So what is your answer to more tags? what units would you suggest giving more tags, and how many more tags ? If you are not going to at least double the tags the odds are still going to be hard to draw with the number of people with bonus points. And some units couldnt take that kind of hit. If you shoot more bulls, you will see the number drop so low in 3 years you wont have a herd to hunt, and it will be back to limited numers again. Thus starting all over again. So please explain how you would do this kind of management and what units you would pick?


Well the first thing I would do on a majority of the units is move the rifle hunts out of the rut. You could suddenly give out twice as many tags. Leave a few with rut rifle hunts for those willing to wait for it. I haven't exactly ran the numbers.

I don't think you can say that the Wasatch has gone to crap either. This year was a great producer for the Wasatch. It has a big herd, it could be a prime candidate for more tags, lower age class, and shorter draw waits, as would be the manti among others.


----------



## goofy elk

Just a couple more thoughts...

I just went through the harvest results, The late (Nov) elk hunt in most cases was AS
successful as the rut (Sept) hunt..
Sooo , if we were to move the rifle L/E elk hunt to, what ever dates, I'm not sure there
would be enough difference in harvest to support very many more permits..

And HONOSTLY, I've been on the Wasatch almost every September since L/E elk
hunting began, The last two years its MORE than a slight drop in quality........
In Fact,,I would say this last falls hunt was a significant change..

And I've been on the Manti about 5 days a week for 3 months, places that used
to hold 20-30 wintering bulls is now more like 5-6...
AND YES the Manti & Wasatch are still good units, But I've seen first hand what
has happen on Nebo,,I would hate to see these other two units go down the same road..


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

Again, black or white. During the rut, or on the winter range. What's that one month, you know, the one known for hunting... uhmmm...oh yeah, October.


----------



## goofy elk

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Again, black or white. During the rut, or on the winter range. What's that one month, you know, the one known for hunting... uhmmm...oh yeah, October.


Why not,,lets just cram them all together with the general season hunts..
That would make a nice L/E hunt experience ,,, huh?


----------



## svmoose

Let's cram something together. Right now the elk are getting harassed constantly for 5 months. Thats too long IMO.

And I think you would see a reduction of success. Hunt them in October with a rifle. There's hardly a state where success is much over 50 percent, most hover around 40. A few of the premium units are a little higher than that.


----------



## dark_cloud

svmoose said:


> Well the first thing I would do on a majority of the units is move the rifle hunts out of the rut. You could suddenly give out twice as many tags. Leave a few with rut rifle hunts for those willing to wait for it. I haven't exactly ran the numbers.
> 
> I don't think you can say that the Wasatch has gone to crap either. This year was a great producer for the Wasatch. It has a big herd, it could be a prime candidate for more tags, lower age class, and shorter draw waits, as would be the manti among others.
> 
> 
> dark_cloud said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what is your answer to more tags? what units would you suggest giving more tags, and how many more tags ? If you are not going to at least double the tags the odds are still going to be hard to draw with the number of people with bonus points. And some units couldnt take that kind of hit. If you shoot more bulls, you will see the number drop so low in 3 years you wont have a herd to hunt, and it will be back to limited numers again. Thus starting all over again. So please explain how you would do this kind of management and what units you would pick?
> 
> 
> 
> Well the first thing I would do on a majority of the units is move the rifle hunts out of the rut. You could suddenly give out twice as many tags. Leave a few with rut rifle hunts for those willing to wait for it. I haven't exactly ran the numbers.
> 
> I don't think you can say that the Wasatch has gone to crap either. This year was a great producer for the Wasatch. It has a big herd, it could be a prime candidate for more tags, lower age class, and shorter draw waits, as would be the manti among others.
Click to expand...

What time frame is the rut? Some years the best part of the rut is the middle of september, the next year its the last part of september going into october. One year the bulls are going better during the muzzle loader LE hunt the next their not. So put all of the hunts during general, thats a great IDEA. You know how many people would look at that and think they could shoot a big bull during the spike hunt and get away with it. We already have idiots out there that shoot big bulls on the spike hunt. It would be pretty tough to patrol that many tags at the same time and hope to catch illegal activity. So what time frame are we going to make the new hunts? Run them in october with the deer hunt, the elk hunt, or in november and december? Look at the new harvest data that came out today, the late hunts are about the same, yes they are lower on some units, but to double tags and think you wont have a high harvest, your crazy. I can find elk on the wasatch any day of the week, and any time of the year. Moveing the rifle hunt out of the rut only hurts the people that cant find elk without them makeing noise. I think the herds will drop drasticly after 2-3 years with this management. Also with this management you will have to lower other tags, less spike hunters, less cow tags, and less archery tags. So is it safe to say that this kind of management is takeing away tags from some? At least right now people dont have to worry about getting an elk tag for archery. You guys keep saying "Its not about the inches" so what is it? Go shoot a cow, they taste better then a bull anyway. You cant eat the horns. The only way your system would work, would be to move it from unit to unit, every year. And they tried that one, it was called an AR301, it was an archery tag. They thought that archery hunters wouldnt put a dent in the herd because of low succes rate. Turns out they dont have that tag anymore. Its all done by control of tags per hunt, knowing what the average succes is for each weapon. If you did issue more tags for the wasatch, are you going to change it for spike hunters, issue less spike tags? With more of one, you have to take away from another, or more, possibly at limited number of archery elk tags.


----------



## Treehugnhuntr

The tunnel is narrow and long.


----------



## coyoteslayer

> What time frame is the rut? Some years the best part of the rut is the middle of september, the next year its the last part of september going into october. One year the bulls are going better during the muzzle loader LE hunt the next their not. So put all of the hunts during general, thats a great IDEA. You know how many people would look at that and think they could shoot a big bull during the spike hunt and get away with it. We already have idiots out there that shoot big bulls on the spike hunt. It would be pretty tough to patrol that many tags at the same time and hope to catch illegal activity. So what time frame are we going to make the new hunts? Run them in october with the deer hunt, the elk hunt, or in november and december? Look at the new harvest data that came out today, the late hunts are about the same, yes they are lower on some units, but to double tags and think you wont have a high harvest, your crazy. I can find elk on the wasatch any day of the week, and any time of the year. Moveing the rifle hunt out of the rut only hurts the people that cant find elk without them makeing noise. I think the herds will drop drasticly after 2-3 years with this management. Also with this management you will have to lower other tags, less spike hunters, less cow tags, and less archery tags. So is it safe to say that this kind of management is takeing away tags from some? At least right now people dont have to worry about getting an elk tag for archery. You guys keep saying "Its not about the inches" so what is it? Go shoot a cow, they taste better then a bull anyway. You cant eat the horns. The only way your system would work, would be to move it from unit to unit, every year. And they tried that one, it was called an AR301, it was an archery tag. They thought that archery hunters wouldnt put a dent in the herd because of low succes rate. Turns out they dont have that tag anymore. Its all done by control of tags per hunt, knowing what the average succes is for each weapon. If you did issue more tags for the wasatch, are you going to change it for spike hunters, issue less spike tags? With more of one, you have to take away from another, or more, possibly at limited number of archery elk tags.


There is a better way to manage elk and that is by eliminating spike hunting and issuing more bull tags out of the rut. Also give more tags to archers and ML hunters.


----------



## dark_cloud

coyoteslayer said:


> There is a better way to manage elk and that is by eliminating spike hunting and issuing more bull tags out of the rut. Also give more tags to archers and ML hunters.


Sorry but your wrong on that one. You get rid of all the spike tags, you just lost alot of money generated by tag sales. You would never be able to take all spike tags and make them big bull tags, get real. In order to make up that kind of money you would have to sale another 2100 LE tags. You think the herd can take that for more then a couple years? The mature bulls would be gone.


----------



## coyoteslayer

> Sorry but your wrong on that one. You get rid of all the spike tags, you just lost alot of money generated by tag sales. You would never be able to take all spike tags and make them big bull tags, get real. In order to make up that kind of money you would have to sale another 2100 LE tags. You think the herd can take that for more then a couple years? The mature bulls would be gone.


No I think I might be right for once . Spike elk tags should only be used as a management tool, and it shouldn't be used as a permanent solution on LE elk units. Right now we are killing spikes (future mature bulls) and mature bulls at the same time. You can't do both and expect to issue out a lot of tags. The spikes would grow up and replace the mature bulls in the herd. Arizona and NM don't issue spike elk tags. They issue more LE mature elk tags than Utah with fewer elk. Arizona and NM aren't to far behind in the number of BC bulls killed yearly.

What is wrong with issuing 2,100 more tags? We would be allowing spikes to become branch antlered bulls and moving the rifle hunt out of the rut to lower the success rate. It seems to me that it would move people through the bonus point system a little faster.


----------



## svmoose

Oh, i did forget to mention that earlier when you were asking about it. Get rid of spike hunting...Anyway, I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this no matter how many pages of posts we write.


----------



## goofy elk

I like this ,,please, oh please get rid of spike hunts.....  

Then we REALLY could issue more mature bull tags...


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel

Inches, Inches, Inches your all in it for Inches, starting to sound like a bunch of guides for Mossback, all this talk of getting rid of spike hunts and taking away opportunity for me......Does SFW have you all in there back pocket or what??????



On second thought, I agree, lets get rid of spike hunts, I have been wondering who the hell wants to hunt spikes for years......... :lol:


----------



## svmoose

Who was behind the spike hunt in the first place?


----------



## indyrxl

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Inches, Inches, Inches your all in it for Inches, starting to sound like a bunch of guides for Mossback, all this talk of getting rid of spike hunts and taking away opportunity for me......Does SFW have you all in there back pocket or what??????
> 
> 
> 
> On second thought, I agree, lets get rid of spike hunts, I have been wondering who the hell wants to hunt spikes for years......... :lol:


Wait a minute. Inches inches inches. I have seen pictures of the deer you have taken. Over the last couple of years, who is concerned about inches  and about SFW having us in thier back pocket.

Werent' you published in the SFW winter magazine?


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel

BUSTED!!!!!!

alright, I admit it, I enjoy a nice rack.......

I just cant resist razzing when many "opportunity" guys would like to see the spike hunt end, so they can have an easier opportunity to chase bigger bulls.......I totally understand why!!!

I truly do see both sides, but the last thing I would like to see is Utah ruin what they have worked so hard to get and hopefully both sides, trophy and opportunity get the best of both worlds, pretty tough to do though.


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel

Oh and they better not mess with the North Cache anymore


----------



## proutdoors

svmoose said:


> Who was behind the spike hunt in the first place?


The spike hunt, another example of unintended abuses of a 'good' idea. It was Jim K, who is currently the DWR director, that came up with the idea of issuing spike permits. But, back then they were issued to INCREASE the number of mature bulls in the herds. Now, it is used to DECREASE the number of mature bulls in the herd. I admit to once being in favor of eliminating the issuing of ALL spike permits, but I think if they are issued/used correctly they can be a valuable tool for managing bull elk numbers and offer opportunity for a large number of hunters. Sadly, they are currently NOT being issued/used correctly, thus they are creating a void on many LE units, and they are taking the opportunity away from many who wish to hunt branch antlered bulls.

Funny how things go full circle. It was 4 years ago, almost to the day, when the seeds of "I400" were planted on the DWR forum. Now, here we have the 'premier' outfitter crying about 'quality', and plenty of supporters agreeing with him. We also have plenty of hunters being DISGUSTED by this outfitter's arrogance/ignorance (myself included!) and who feel the resource of branch antlered elk is not being used to its maximum ability. When "I400" was conceived, we suggested leaving 8-10 LE units as Premium units where the season dates are left like they are currently, tag allotment percentages for different weapon types are left like they are currently, and the 'quality' is the #1 goal. In other words, these units would be paradise for the outfitters like Mossback and goofyelk. They can kill monster bulls with little effort, and then feel all manly about the 'trophy's' they have put on the ground/wall. Spike tags can be issued if they so wish to help keep the bull:cow ratios down a tad since they will have inane harvest age objectives to sate the super outfitters demands. The remaining units would have the season dates adjusted, taking the rifle hunts out of the rut and out of when the bulls are on winter range (mid-October), issuing a larger percentage of permits to primitive weapon hunters, and managing to bull:cow ratios instead of harvest age objectives. There could even be some units with higher/lower bull:cow ratios to fit the various wishes of the hunting population. Spike permits would be issued on a rotational basis, thus minimizing the impact on bull:cow ratios but allowing for more opportunity being available.

Maybe we should make another push for this? :O•-:


----------



## coyoteslayer

I think it's the perfect time because it's a Win/Win for everyone and it actually manages elk a lot better than we are doing right now.


----------



## ntrl_brn_rebel

proutdoors said:


> Maybe we should make another push for this? :O•-:


Yep.........

Even though the details would decide if I support it or not, I believe it might be the best of both worlds and would even like to see something similar in regards to Mule Deer (at least the idea), god knows the options we had did not have half the ideas that were tossed around in the fifty million pages of the I400 thread :lol: .


----------



## dark_cloud

coyoteslayer said:


> What is wrong with issuing 2,100 more tags? We would be allowing spikes to become branch antlered bulls and moving the rifle hunt out of the rut to lower the success rate. It seems to me that it would move people through the bonus point system a little faster


You act like no spikes make it through the hunt, what do you think we are hunting now? They were spikes at one time. The spike only made the LE hunt what they are today. If you did get rid of the spike hunt and issued 2100 more tags, is there not going to be a time gap for about 3-4 years on bulls even getting big enough to consider shooting. I agree, the spike hunt sucks but it has made the elk herds what they are. I choose to hunt the open bull units my self, unless I want some meet then I hunt the wasatch with my bow. But the fact is, it made the herds increase and utah is one of the best places to hunt a big bull. There is too much money involved in big bulls and its sad that they run it that way, but if I wanted to kill a 280 bull every year I would go to colorado. They have more elk then they know what to do with, and 95% of their elk is managed for quantity not quality. I will take one nice rack then a bunch of little racks any day of the week. :mrgreen: After all what are you going to do with a raghorn bull, throw it in the back yard and let the dog chew on it? I know what you would do with a 360 plus bull....................Its going on the wall more then likely.

As far as moving people through the bonus point system faster, you are right. More people would draw and more people would drop out of the system, because they are not going to wait 5-8 years to kill a 280 bull or smaller when you can go to colorado and do that already.


----------



## Huge29

coyoteslayer said:


> Right now we are killing spikes (future mature bulls) and mature bulls at the same time. You can't do both and expect to issue out a lot of tags.


Spike only began on the Manti/Central unit in 1991 or was it 1992? and the state is looked at as one of the best around; on what do you base your opinion that it is not working or that you can't do what is already being done?


----------



## coyoteslayer

dark_cloud said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is wrong with issuing 2,100 more tags? We would be allowing spikes to become branch antlered bulls and moving the rifle hunt out of the rut to lower the success rate. It seems to me that it would move people through the bonus point system a little faster
> 
> 
> 
> You act like no spikes make it through the hunt, what do you think we are hunting now? They were spikes at one time. Of course spikes make it through the hunts, but if you look at the harvest then most areas are killing two or three times the number of spikes than mature bulls. Imagine if the majority of those spikes were allowed to live and become older bulls? The spike only made the LE hunt what they are today.Spike hunting should be a managment tool not a permanent solution on units. If you did get rid of the spike hunt and issued 2100 more tags, is there not going to be a time gap for about 3-4 years on bulls even getting big enough to consider shooting. Not true because right now we have younger bulls that are 2 to 4 years right now. Remember spikes make it through the hunts. I agree, the spike hunt sucks but it has made the elk herds what they are.But it shouldn't be a permanent solution on every unit. It served it major purpose already. It should be a management tool. I choose to hunt the open bull units my self, unless I want some meet then I hunt the wasatch with my bow. But the fact is, it made the herds increase and utah is one of the best places to hunt a big bull. There is too much money involved in big bulls and its sad that they run it that way, but if I wanted to kill a 280 bull every year I would go to colorado. They have more elk then they know what to do with, and 95% of their elk is managed for quantity not quality. I will take one nice rack then a bunch of little racks any day of the week. :mrgreen: After all what are you going to do with a raghorn bull, throw it in the back yard and let the dog chew on it? I know what you would do with a 360 plus bull....................Its going on the wall more then likely.
> 
> As far as moving people through the bonus point system faster, you are right. More people would draw and more people would drop out of the system, because they are not going to wait 5-8 years to kill a 280 bull or smaller when you can go to colorado and do that already.
Click to expand...


----------



## proutdoors

Huge29 said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right now we are killing spikes (future mature bulls) and mature bulls at the same time. You can't do both and expect to issue out a lot of tags.
> 
> 
> 
> Spike only began on the Manti/Central unit in 1991 or was it 1992? and the state is looked at as one of the best around; on what do you base your opinion that it is not working or that you can't do what is already being done?
Click to expand...

This MYTH of spike hunting being the cause of monster bulls drives me crazy! It was eliminating and them LIMITING the harvest of branch antlered bulls that got us to where we have 'world class' bulls. Up until a couple of years ago the units that produce year in and year out the biggest bulls issued exactly ZERO spike tags. Now that they issue spike tags on those units, unless there is a drastic reduction in mature bull permits the 'quality' WILL nose dive on these upper tier units. You can't kill bulls on the top and bottom ends and not expect to see a major void in the number of bulls available.

Once again, spike hunting *DID NOT* make Utah the "best around"!


----------



## coyoteslayer

Huge29 said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right now we are killing spikes (future mature bulls) and mature bulls at the same time. You can't do both and expect to issue out a lot of tags.
> 
> 
> 
> Spike only began on the Manti/Central unit in 1991 or was it 1992? and the state is looked at as one of the best around; on what do you base your opinion that it is not working or that you can't do what is already being done?
Click to expand...

Huge think about it....you can't harvest spikes and issue more mature elk tags because eventually you will need to cut back on the number of tags because the recruitment isn't high enough.


----------



## goofy elk

I'll say this one more time,,,,

Spike hunting on Phavant, Monroe, the west desert units, Dutton, are going to prove
to be disastrous in the real near future...........


----------



## Huge29

coyoteslayer said:


> Huge29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right now we are killing spikes (future mature bulls) and mature bulls at the same time. You can't do both and expect to issue out a lot of tags.
> 
> 
> 
> Spike only began on the Manti/Central unit in 1991 or was it 1992? and the state is looked at as one of the best around; on what do you base your opinion that it is not working or that you can't do what is already being done?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Huge think about it....you can't harvest spikes and issue more mature elk tags because eventually you will need to cut back on the number of tags because the recruitment isn't high enough.
Click to expand...

Pro--I did not make any insinuation that spike hunting created a great herd, although how could you argue that the spike hunting is not acceptable, the herd has done very well in spite of spike hunting-the facts bare that out quite clearly. I cited Manti/Central specifically, certainly not the best, but one that has done very well also. Still a great area! I don't think we want spikes statewide, but I think we have a pretty healthy balance as it is now.

CS-Your new statement-clearly can't argue with that; maybe I took the original quote of context??


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## coyoteslayer

> Pro--I did not make any insinuation that spike hunting created a great herd, although how could you argue that the spike hunting is not acceptable, the herd has done very well in spite of spike hunting-the facts bare that out quite clearly.


It was a good idea to help grow more bulls and still give people an opportunity to hunt elk, but Arizona and NM didn't need spike hunting to grow their herds. They aren't far behind us in BC bulls harvested yearly. Their recruitment is higher because they don't kill bulls in the rut with a rifle and don't issue spike tags. They also issue more LE bull elk tags. I will also point again that AZ and NM have fewer elk than Utah does, but more opportunity to hunt mature bulls.


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## Huge29

coyoteslayer said:


> Pro--I did not make any insinuation that spike hunting created a great herd, although how could you argue that the spike hunting is not acceptable, the herd has done very well in spite of spike hunting-the facts bare that out quite clearly.
> 
> 
> 
> It was a good idea to help grow more bulls and still give people an opportunity to hunt elk, but Arizona and NM didn't need spike hunting to grow their herds. They aren't far behind us in BC bulls harvested yearly. Their recruitment is higher because they don't kill bulls in the rut with a rifle and don't issue spike tags. They also issue more LE bull elk tags. *I will also point again that AZ and NM have fewer elk than Utah does, but more opportunity to hunt mature bulls.*
Click to expand...

Is that a quote from Don Peay? :mrgreen: 
I think balance is the key and I must say that Utah has done a pretty decent job of it.


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## Treehugnhuntr

I completely disagree. Balance is the issue for me.


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## coyoteslayer

> Is that a quote from Don Peay?


No, I believe his quote was something like......... if you just want to hunt elk then go to Colorado. :mrgreen:


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## ntrl_brn_rebel

coyoteslayer said:


> I will also point again that AZ and NM have fewer elk than Utah does, but more opportunity to hunt mature bulls.


But..........Much Less Opportunity at Elk than Utah overall


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## coyoteslayer

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will also point again that AZ and NM have fewer elk than Utah does, but more opportunity to hunt mature bulls.
> 
> 
> 
> But..........Much Less Opportunity at Elk than Utah overall
Click to expand...

True, if you count spike tags and anybulls tags. AZ and NM could give out a lot more if they had the same number of elk as Utah. I'm sure you got my point from your wink


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## ntrl_brn_rebel

coyoteslayer said:


> AZ and NM could give out a lot more if they had the same number of elk as Utah.


No doubt!


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## USMARINEhuntinfool

So while lying in bed, unable to sleep transitioning from graves to days again, my thoughts have been rambling. Maybe this isn't a problem maybe it is. With the current LE program for elk, we are hunting and killing elk during the rut, the time they should be breeding the cows and passing on their genetics, right? So now follow me, if we've been killing the 400" bulls for the past few years, what have we been leaving to breed the cows? Maybe this makes no sense, but wouldn't it be more productive to let these 400" bulls breed the cows for a couple weeks before we go lopping their heads off and throwing them on the wall? Now its late and maybe I'm way off in left field but right now thats not making much sense to me. Yet Doyle and the rest of these 400" or bust guys are bitching about quality getting poor. I know, I know, everyone has been waiting 20 years to draw so they should have a guaranteed chance to get a love struck bull into 20 yards, so they can blow a hole in him with their 338 lapua. Maybe someone can explain why this is logical to me? I can't wrap my head around this being logical right now, maybe I should go back to bed.... Carry on, sorry for the ramble.


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## wyoming2utah

coyoteslayer said:


> ntrl_brn_rebel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will also point again that AZ and NM have fewer elk than Utah does, but more opportunity to hunt mature bulls.
> 
> 
> 
> But..........Much Less Opportunity at Elk than Utah overall
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True, if you count spike tags and anybulls tags. AZ and NM could give out a lot more if they had the same number of elk as Utah. I'm sure you got my point from your wink
Click to expand...

First, Arizona and New Mexico don't have anywhere near the opportunity Utah has to hunt mature bulls...not even close. You guys seem to forget that Utah offers what 13,000 any bull tags every year in addition to the LE tags. Also, even if Arizona and New Mexico had the number of elk that Utah has, they still could NOT even come close to offer as much opportunity to hunt mature elk as Utah with their current systems.

BALANCE is the key...and Utah has struck it very well in my opinion. Any talk of elk herds crashing because of spike hunting is stupid...spike hunting will NOT ever ruin the elk herds. The reason Utah has had so many big bulls in recent years is due to very limited LE tags. BUT, spike hunting has really been good because it has provided elk hunting opportunity WITHOUT destroying the quality of bulls on spike hunting units. Allowing spike hunters to hunt any LE unit will not change much because the spike hunting pressure has simply been spread out...


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## TAK

True genetics plays a part as does health of the animal. But relize that with time the 300 bull will mature to a larger bull. Its like breeding other types of animals. The sperm is genetic programed at birth...
That there is the reason our money hunters want us to give up many of our opertunities to hunt, and let them grow the big racks so they can continue to pimp them.....

Don't get me wrong, being a guide would be sort of a dream job. And I have friends that do it, but the more I read, the more I think, that many guides would cut your throat if it ment for them bigger racks and more tags.



USMARINEhuntinfool said:


> So while lying in bed, unable to sleep transitioning from graves to days again, my thoughts have been rambling. Maybe this isn't a problem maybe it is. With the current LE program for elk, we are hunting and killing elk during the rut, the time they should be breeding the cows and passing on their genetics, right? So now follow me, if we've been killing the 400" bulls for the past few years, what have we been leaving to breed the cows? Maybe this makes no sense, but wouldn't it be more productive to let these 400" bulls breed the cows for a couple weeks before we go lopping their heads off and throwing them on the wall? Now its late and maybe I'm way off in left field but right now thats not making much sense to me. Yet Doyle and the rest of these 400" or bust guys are bitching about quality getting poor. I know, I know, everyone has been waiting 20 years to draw so they should have a guaranteed chance to get a love struck bull into 20 yards, so they can blow a hole in him with their 338 lapua. Maybe someone can explain why this is logical to me? I can't wrap my head around this being logical right now, maybe I should go back to bed.... Carry on, sorry for the ramble.


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## wileywapati

If any of you think Biology, Balance or anything other than money and inches of antler play a role in elk management in Utah you are up in the night.


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## USMARINEhuntinfool

You have a good point TAK but how do we know the 300 inch bull is a 2 year old bull or 9 year old bull. How do we know 300 inches isn't his genetics. That was more rhetorical than anything. My point is, I'm not much of a gambler. I'm also not for hunting an animal during the rut with the most effective weapon. Not when its taking a huge amount of oppertunity away. Theres 29 units, split them half and half (not even so give the higher number to the inch guys if they want to cry  ) Manage half as premium units hunting the rut, the other as oppertunity units. Take the rifle tag out of the rut offer more tags for primitive weapons and a slight bump in rifle tags. Add 30 tags per oppertunity unit (hypothetical best case), you just bumped up 420 tags. You just bumped your odds from 1 in 15 to 1 in 13, not huge but a substantial difference none the less. Some units may be able to add more tags depending on the drop off of success if the hunt was moved out of the rut. I'm willing to bet most guys are willing to take a 300 inch bull if given the oppertunity. At the same time the 400" club keeps their premium units. I'd really like to see them give 3/4 of units to oppertunity and maintain 1/4 for premium. But I digress thats just me. Sorry for the ramble again, carry on.


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## TAK

I can only assume with age and health that ALL BULL would reach that 400 mark.... I can also read your idea that killing the bigger bulls in the rutt is a problem and if the rifle was moved out of the rutt less bulls would be killed. I don't see it that way. From Aug to late october first of sept them same bulls are sounding off, and still chasing cows around. True in the rutt gives more of a chance to kill one, but really Elk are not that hard to find, pre or post rutt. That is my opinion on it...



USMARINEhuntinfool said:


> You have a good point TAK but how do we know the 300 inch bull is a 2 year old bull or 9 year old bull. How do we know 300 inches isn't his genetics. That was more rhetorical than anything. My point is, I'm not much of a gambler. I'm also not for hunting an animal during the rut with the most effective weapon. Not when its taking a huge amount of oppertunity away. Theres 29 units, split them half and half (not even so give the higher number to the inch guys if they want to cry  ) Manage half as premium units hunting the rut, the other as oppertunity units. Take the rifle tag out of the rut offer more tags for primitive weapons and a slight bump in rifle tags. Add 30 tags per oppertunity unit (hypothetical best case), you just bumped up 420 tags. You just bumped your odds from 1 in 15 to 1 in 13, not huge but a substantial difference none the less. Some units may be able to add more tags depending on the drop off of success if the hunt was moved out of the rut. I'm willing to bet most guys are willing to take a 300 inch bull if given the oppertunity. At the same time the 400" club keeps their premium units. I'd really like to see them give 3/4 of units to oppertunity and maintain 1/4 for premium. But I digress thats just me. Sorry for the ramble again, carry on.


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## jahan

TAK said:


> I can only assume with age and health that ALL BULL would reach that 400 mark.... I can also read your idea that killing the bigger bulls in the rutt is a problem and if the rifle was moved out of the rutt less bulls would be killed. I don't see it that way. From Aug to late october first of sept them same bulls are sounding off, and still chasing cows around. True in the rutt gives more of a chance to kill one, but really Elk are not that hard to find, pre or post rutt. That is my opinion on it...
> 
> 
> 
> USMARINEhuntinfool said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have a good point TAK but how do we know the 300 inch bull is a 2 year old bull or 9 year old bull. How do we know 300 inches isn't his genetics. That was more rhetorical than anything. My point is, I'm not much of a gambler. I'm also not for hunting an animal during the rut with the most effective weapon. Not when its taking a huge amount of oppertunity away. Theres 29 units, split them half and half (not even so give the higher number to the inch guys if they want to cry  ) Manage half as premium units hunting the rut, the other as oppertunity units. Take the rifle tag out of the rut offer more tags for primitive weapons and a slight bump in rifle tags. Add 30 tags per oppertunity unit (hypothetical best case), you just bumped up 420 tags. You just bumped your odds from 1 in 15 to 1 in 13, not huge but a substantial difference none the less. Some units may be able to add more tags depending on the drop off of success if the hunt was moved out of the rut. I'm willing to bet most guys are willing to take a 300 inch bull if given the oppertunity. At the same time the 400" club keeps their premium units. I'd really like to see them give 3/4 of units to oppertunity and maintain 1/4 for premium. But I digress thats just me. Sorry for the ramble again, carry on.
Click to expand...

So using your assumption is it fair to say that every adult male will reach 6' tall if his health allows it? I get your point, but there are genetics involved. I am 5'8" and I will never reach 6 foot tall, I am very healthy. The same can be said with bulls, there are many and I dare say a majority of the bulls that would never reach the 400" mark in their lifetime, that is why this inches crap is such a bad measuring device along with age objectives.


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## ut1031

USMarine, great points! I would dare say that not many on this forum have ever seen a 400in bull. They are kind of like 7ft tall people, they are around, but kind of scarce. The genetics are what give bulls the opportunity to grow BIG, just like people. The age of a bull will NOT guarantee the size! Just look at the bulls that elk22hunter and C3 took off of the San Juan unit. They are AWESOME and far from 400". Lets all get together on this and make a push to change the current thinking by the Wildlife Board. 
K


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## WasatchOutdoors

jahan said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can only assume with age and health that ALL BULL would reach that 400 mark.... I can also read your idea that killing the bigger bulls in the rutt is a problem and if the rifle was moved out of the rutt less bulls would be killed. I don't see it that way. From Aug to late october first of sept them same bulls are sounding off, and still chasing cows around. True in the rutt gives more of a chance to kill one, but really Elk are not that hard to find, pre or post rutt. That is my opinion on it...
> 
> 
> 
> USMARINEhuntinfool said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have a good point TAK but how do we know the 300 inch bull is a 2 year old bull or 9 year old bull. How do we know 300 inches isn't his genetics. That was more rhetorical than anything. My point is, I'm not much of a gambler. I'm also not for hunting an animal during the rut with the most effective weapon. Not when its taking a huge amount of oppertunity away. Theres 29 units, split them half and half (not even so give the higher number to the inch guys if they want to cry  ) Manage half as premium units hunting the rut, the other as oppertunity units. Take the rifle tag out of the rut offer more tags for primitive weapons and a slight bump in rifle tags. Add 30 tags per oppertunity unit (hypothetical best case), you just bumped up 420 tags. You just bumped your odds from 1 in 15 to 1 in 13, not huge but a substantial difference none the less. Some units may be able to add more tags depending on the drop off of success if the hunt was moved out of the rut. I'm willing to bet most guys are willing to take a 300 inch bull if given the oppertunity. At the same time the 400" club keeps their premium units. I'd really like to see them give 3/4 of units to oppertunity and maintain 1/4 for premium. But I digress thats just me. Sorry for the ramble again, carry on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So using your assumption is it fair to say that every adult male will reach 6' tall if his health allows it? I get your point, but there are genetics involved. I am 5'8" and I will never reach 6 foot tall, I am very healthy. The same can be said with bulls, there are many and I dare say a majority of the bulls that would never reach the 400" mark in their lifetime, that is why this inches crap is such a bad measuring device along with age objectives.
Click to expand...

I think you're dead right on this issue. Now I'm going to make a jump of species on this, and maybe I'm off base, but my limited expertise in genetics comes specifically from growing up on a ranch that raised breeding stock red angus cattle.

But, in my experience there, we hand selected which bulls we wanted to breed, because an inferior bull at peak age will never pass on the genetics for a larger bodied bull. I think the same is true of elk. Yes, one might argue that the smaller bulls left to breed will eventually get bigger. But guessing how much bigger is a total gamble. They may or may not have the same genes as the current herd bull. They may be carrying genes from a lesser sattelite bull that snuck in some rogue breeding on the fringe of the herd. You have no way of ever knowing that.

And unfortunately when a guy draws a once in a lifetime elk tag, He generally is going to hold out for the herd bull if he is at all accessible. Right during the peak of the rut, that herd bull is at his most vulnerable and most visible. So, in my opinion, by removing the largest bull from the herd, you are taking a large gamble on what genetics are being passed on. And there's no real way to know how much that is contributing to the overall decline of trophy quality, but I imagine its more substatial than most people wouold think.


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## jahan

A big assumption many are making is they are assuming the largest bull is the herd bull. In my experience this is rarely the case. The herd bull is the most "dominant" bull, but rarely the largest bull around. Two years ago I was watching a herd of elk and the herd bull was a nice 6x6 bull, but there were several satellite bulls we were watching that were clearly bigger bulls. The biggest bulls are not always the ones who breed the cows, it is usually the dominant bull.


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## bullsnot

Look at what we are saying....inches = health. This discussion is about trophy quality, nothing more. On LE units I would dare say that there are plenty of "healthy", genetically sound bulls to breed the cows calls as it exists now. 

Now if you really want the 400 inch bulls to breed for better "antler genes" then maybe pushing the rifle hunt back a week or two wouldn't hurt although I think the difference would be marginal at best. As Jahan mentioned the largest antlered bull isn't always the dominant bull. Besides by the time a 400 inch bull hits the ground after being hit from a bullet he has had the opportunity to breed for weeks. JMHO


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## Treehugnhuntr

Utah, America's largest ranch. We best be high fencing our borders so the inferior bulls from other states don't come and impregnate our cows. We should probably tag them as well, so we can know if they are actually legal to exist in our state. Then if we find elk, especially one's with sub par genes, that don't have the proper identification, we can deport them to where they came from. Better yet, lets just round the inferior elk up, stick them in a fenced in area and line them up one by one and incinerate them? Don't want inferior elk breeding and spreading their horrible traits to the rest of the elk population.

I see where this is going....... Hail Doyle!


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## provider

Goofy,

Great point about the general bull tags not competing with LE, but don't make the conclusion that the spike hunt hurt the Pahvant. 2009 was the first spike hunt. If 2010 was a bad year, its is not because of only one year of spike hunting. 

Did Doyle really turn down an opportunity to guide the gov. tag? Sounds suspect to me.


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## Treehugnhuntr

No, they killed the 2010 bull a few weeks ago and the 2011 tag hasn't been auctioned off yet. Politics.


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## proutdoors

Worrying about genetics of a free range elk herd is akin to worrying about spitting into the ocean and changing the ecosystem on the other side of the world. 

Tree is spot on, this is 100% political. I am sure its just by chance Doyle put this on his website a week before all the "John's" show up for the Pimps R Us show going on at the Salt Palace this weekend. :O•-:


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## stick

Pimps R Us show!!!!! i just blew my drink on the screen. That nailed it and i agree 100% politial!


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## TAK

No it is not fair to say that... Thats the hand you have been delt. But if you want to find you a hot momma, that is say 7 ft tall that child of yours has the chase to hit 6 ft or more... Might!
My point is, many of these elk herds have young very good young bulls, that MIGHT also care the genetics of a better antler growing elk. It also can be possible that the acting herd bull at this time could be the smaller bulls daddy. POSSIBLE! What year was spidy killed? 2- 3 years ago. Maybe his babies are just simple rags now, an maybe they throw a shot or two in a cow here and there. Them Spidy genes are then carried on.
And my point was not how to grow the biggest bulls, it is that hunting during the rutt really has no ill effects.
AND! My dad is 5'7 my mome was 5'3.... I am 5'11! 


jahan said:


> TAK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can only assume with age and health that ALL BULL would reach that 400 mark.... I can also read your idea that killing the bigger bulls in the rutt is a problem and if the rifle was moved out of the rutt less bulls would be killed. I don't see it that way. From Aug to late october first of sept them same bulls are sounding off, and still chasing cows around. True in the rutt gives more of a chance to kill one, but really Elk are not that hard to find, pre or post rutt. That is my opinion on it...
> 
> 
> 
> USMARINEhuntinfool said:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So using your assumption is it fair to say that every adult male will reach 6' tall if his health allows it? I get your point, but there are genetics involved. I am 5'8" and I will never reach 6 foot tall, I am very healthy. The same can be said with bulls, there are many and I dare say a majority of the bulls that would never reach the 400" mark in their lifetime, that is why this inches crap is such a bad measuring device along with age objectives.
Click to expand...


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## TAK

proutdoors said:


> Worrying about genetics of a free range elk herd is akin to worrying about spitting into the ocean and changing the ecosystem on the other side of the world.
> 
> Tree is spot on, this is 100% political. I am sure its just by chance Doyle put this on his website a week before all the "John's" show up for the Pimps R Us show going on at the Salt Palace this weekend. :O•-:


I was there last night... First time I went into the elite hall/room.... Seen the man himself, he put on one hell of a show also! I would pay big money to see him again! I wish I had his talent, just once I would like to go out while he is working! How much fun.....
By the way I was talking about the Charlie Jenkins Concert!
A funny part of that was Jim Shocky saying, talking about the great things that the "S... ahh.. fw... ahh SFW. I thought I would miss that" Also said that this is not all about matter of records, or inches..... Crowd was silent!
Sorry I was busy eating the pizza.... But our table laughed....


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## proutdoors

TAK said:


> AND! My dad is 5'7 my mome was 5'3.... I am 5'11!


I am right there with you, except I tower over you by half an inch. :mrgreen:


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## Treehugnhuntr

Are you guys related to Tex?


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## proutdoors

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Are you guys related to Tex?


No need to be so rude!


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## Treehugnhuntr

It was just a question. :mrgreen:


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## TAK

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Are you guys related to Tex?


Hell no! The big guy broke the mold when he was made!

AND! I really don't get into MOUNTING dead chit!


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## ktowncamo

Gov tag for elk "only" sold for $50K tonight. Antelope Island deer tag sold for $265K if I recall correctly. I wondered how much Doyle not guiding the elk tag had to do with the drop in price.


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## proutdoors

ktowncamo said:


> Gov tag for elk "only" sold for $50K tonight. Antelope Island deer tag sold for $265K if I recall correctly. I wondered how much Doyle not guiding the elk tag had to do with the drop in price.


A dirty little secret, Doyle hasn't guided 2 of the last 4 Governor elk tags.  This is all about grandstanding and a ploy to get a reduction in permits to artificially drive up the demands for his services, and to make it easier for him to find 'trophy' animals. This would be like the Yankees crying over not winning the World Series and saying they aren't playing the Red Sox anymore if they aren't ensured a title.


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## pheaz

I guess Doyle has probably moved out of the spotlight because the question of the spider bull is still floating around.


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## xbearx419

The mossback group is a bunch of dirty rotten buggers, i encourage all of you to boycott these guys. They hunt illeagaly on private land without permission. And as i witnessed first hand last season in the fillmore pahvant area they will block off PUBLIC roads and trails with their vehicles and will cut down trees to block off these passages to keep a Bull or buck to their selfs. Doyle will rott in hell for what he has done. Next time his equipment is in my way my Warn 8000 lb winch will move his ish to the side.

Sincerely, the average outdoors man :twisted:

[exclamation:1rcwe457][/exclamation:1rcwe457]_*MODERATOR NOTE:* For a first post, that's awfully inflammatory, and you've even gone so far of accusing them of illegal activities. Since this is your first post, the forum rules that you agreed to abide by should still be fresh in your mind. Feel free to express your opinions or share your experiences, but please do so without dragging other people's names through the mud.

Welcome to the forum by the way._


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## BradN

I wonder how long it will take the last post to be deleted?


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## TEX-O-BOB

pheaz said:


> I guess Doyle has probably moved out of the spotlight because the question of the spider bull is still floating around.


Say all you want and dream up any delusion about a big scandalous conspiracy but the spider bull was and is a legit animal taken in a legit area by a legit hunter. What wasn't legit is that he got run down by a lynch mob of Mossback bounty hunters. He eluded being shot for almost two months before he finally ran out of hiding places. That animal wasn't a planted ranch bull, that animal was just SMART! Just like so many other BIG bulls in this state. Through years of being hunted by the hoards and driven into the darkest nastiest deep and steepest sh*t they could find they have learned how to stay alive. This fact is what has people thinking they aren't around any more. They are, they're just harder to find and kill. Doyals spoiled little candyass is just upset that it now takes an 18 man assassin squad to find them instead of an 8 man team. That cuts into his bottom line and makes him look bad. There are PLENTY of bulls still roaming this state that get big and die of old age. Cutting back tags would only serve to create a slightly bigger pool of slightly dumber elk. For now...


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## shaun larsen

xbearx419 said:


> The mossback group is a bunch of dirty rotten buggers, i encourage all of you to boycott these guys. They hunt illeagaly on private land without permission. And as i witnessed first hand last season in the fillmore pahvant area they will block off PUBLIC roads and trails with their vehicles and will cut down trees to block off these passages to keep a Bull or buck to their selfs. Doyle will rott in hell for what he has done. Next time his equipment is in my way my Warn 8000 lb winch will move his ish to the side.
> 
> Sincerely, the average outdoors man :twisted:


thats a pretty brave first post...... :O•-:

it didnt happen without pics!! everyone seems to have it happen to them or know someone who has experienced it, but no one has any hard evidence to prove it!! ANYONE CAN SAY ANYTHING... :roll:


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## Huge29

BradN said:


> I wonder how long it will take the last post to be deleted?


Why would it be deleted? There are no less than 50 similar posts out there on the forum and this one just like all of the rest has zero proof/verification/evidence, which is what makes it such a joke; all of the stories and yet not a single picture in an age when every person over the age of 15 has a cell phone with camera on it. At least it is first hand and not the father in law's neighbor's coworker's dog groomer as is usually the case. This phenomenon is exponentially more elusive than Bigfoot and UFO's. I don't care for the guy as good, bad or otherwise, yet not a single pic??? I am sure that the truck had stickers and mullet conditioning kits in it making it a solid case that it was his...?? If this really did happen to me I would be seriously peeved and I would also have the VIN of the truck, the license plate and the Sheriff on the phone, yet... :roll:
One more item-he allegedly illegally hunts on private land and blocks off public roads as witnessed personally, how can it be both? :roll: :roll:


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## El Matador

I used to hunt the Henry Mountains back in the 90s with several other forum members. I have no idea if Doyle was involved in this, but a similar thing happened with someone guiding on the east side of Mt Ellen. While driving into our campsite we came across 3 or 4 large trees someone felled across the road very recently. While we were cutting/dragging them out of the road, one of the guide's clients came riding past on his horse. The guide had told him the road was closed and they were cutting the trees down to make sure nobody came up the closed road. I still remember what was said by the father of our own Idiotwithabow and EPEK, "You tell your guide that tomorrow isn't just open season on deer, it's open season on his mules!"

I'm not accusing Mossback of being involved with this because I really have no idea who it was. The only thing I can say for certain is that such practices are being used on public land by guides in our state.


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## Guest

*ouch wolves and too many mature bull tags!!!*

I for one agree with Doyle. I've watched the big bull population in my home Wasatch unit drop like a rock over the past 4 or five years.I don't hunt live bulls or drops I just love watching them. but your kidding yourselves if you think for one minute that wolves with too many mature bull tags isn't going to be catastrophic just wait and see!


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## goofy elk

Ha,,, Intresting read from a couple years ago.....


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## dkhntrdstn

screw mossback. all they want is the fn money.


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## swbuckmaster

Lol this post is so old dkhn posted on 8/14/1972

Weird some how it got fixed


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## Guest

How does the fact the Wasatch herd is declining have anything to do with general tags? I think it has more to do with the more than 700 limited tags from this year and last.


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