# Pack goats



## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Ok, so Packfish, please expound on the pack goats. I have been looking at picking some up and would like to know anything and everything you know about them.

-Feed (beer cans and light bulbs I suppose)

-Shelter.

-Amount of weight you have packed on them.

-Pros/cons vs. horses.

-number of goats you have.

-Everything else I may have left out.

Sometimes horses are a pain and I'd like to have the option of throwing in the goat train on my smaller trailer.

Thanks!


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Feed: that's an old myth- goats are very intelligent and inquisitive and like to mouth stuff. Anyhting you are working with. And they will eat a plastic sack and it could kill them- but as far as food goes no.
I want a strong healthy animal- basically an athlete. Up to 2 years of age they get 
a daily supplement of flaked corn or Corn oats and barley or beet pellets. But between my 3 goats during the cold months they go thru about a bale or so of hay a week.
The secret is the Calcium to Phosphorous ration- 2 to 1. You want wethered goats- no male stink and promotes growth. But the castration can cause problems, especially if done before 6 months of age. Basically Urinary stone and can kill or at least be a really ugly deal. You need to keep that above ratio pretty close to 2 to 1 and it helps. Too much protien and that throws it out of whack but you also want protien up to 2 years of age to promote that athletic growth. They will turn their noses up at food you would think would be like steaks to them at times. Part of the time I feed a pure grass hay and part I feed a hay with weeds and a little alfalfa in it- but not pure alfalfa.
Shelter: at least 3 sided shed out of the wind. I built a shed with a sloping roof to the back. I put a barn style door on the one side and a half door on the other. The half door is on the top half with rubber mats that hang to keep out the wind and rain but let air circulate. The mats can be folded up out of the way on nice winter days. They floor is 1/2 covered with a pallets so they are off the ground.
Weight- You really don't want any weight on the goats until 2 years of age. They grow to 4 years and top out and live for 15 or so. At 1 1 /2 years you can put the saddles on them to hike with but really not much weight in the panniers until 2- thier spine and bones are still growing. After 3 or so they can go with 1/4 thier body weight depending on how fit they are . At 2 mine were carrying 15#. Just like us old men if we don't keep in shape they aren't going far or carrying much. My goats are 180# plus- my buddy has one at 2 that's 200 plus. I would say with the shape they are in they could carry 50# but 40# a piece with 3 goats is more than I can use in a week.
Except for unloading and starting out- depending who is around I don't use a lead rope. There isn't a need to. If they are imprinted on you then you are the lead goat to them and they won't leave you. Raising them from a month on is the way to go, you can get an older goat which hopefully is imprinted on humans that could be trained as a pack goat but a goat raised by you will have a much higher percentage of being what you want. I do not high line or tether them at night though many do. They won't leave. They have never been more than 10 yards from the tent at night ever. A water spray bottle is your training tool. They will get into stuff- they are as smart as a dog and all have differnt personalities for sure. But a spray in the face with the spray bottle a couple of times and they won't ever do it again. They train pretty quickly. 
They are enjoyable personable animals that sometimes amaze you because what they did took some type of thought process to do.. Once you get it down they are very easy to deal with. I started out with them in a 70 x 70 fenced area with no grass and had to feed daily. Because of them ( to a point ) I live on a pretty decent spread with a acre of pasture just for them now in a Paradise. I can honestly say that I don't think my wife and I would have taken that leap with out having them. I know with in a year I will be building a 40 x 40 metal garage with stalls on the side for them.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks! Any leads on a seller?


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Treehugnhuntr said:


> Thanks! Any leads on a seller?


For the velcro gloves?


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Heard or started every goat joke out there and some are pretty **** funny.

The big 5 breeds to look for are- Sannen ( the big white goats) Lamancha's ( earless goats) Alpines ( usually the big black and white) Oberhasli and Toggenburgs.

The Boers are those big meat goats- too much muscle and no stamina- though a cross with Sannens or Alpines is OK. No Nubians- pretty lazy as a breed- though I don't know that from personal experience.

There is a guy that has a big dairy south of SLC that has Sannens and my buddy picked him up there. One is a beast of a boy. I will get his info for you.
I got an Alpine/Toggenburg off of KSL. The other 2 I drove to Boise for and probably didn't need to go that far but I don't reget it either. 
Any goat can be trained to pack I am just giving you the best gudelines from what I have experienced. here is a video of the guy who really is like the God Father of today's goat packing- He guides into the Wind Rivers.




No- don't click on the Fried Goat balls- well if you want to OK.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but you have peaked my interests. I am a horse owner and enjoy trail rides and overnighters. I noticed in the video these goats are not tied to anything they are just following someone. Is this the case? Do they just freeroam and follow you around?

Thanks.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Yeah, he mentioned that in the first post. I'm definitely seeing some advantages to owning a few of these critters.


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## tweedmadsen (Nov 16, 2007)

FYI.......there is a guy in Tooele who rents goats. I thought it was an interesting way to get introduced to the concept. I have yet to take them hunting, but we did rent them to go backpacking and take both my family and my brothers. The boys carried there stuff and the goats handled most of the women and girls stuff. The only problem we ran into was one morning some hikers came through the camp and kept on going up the trail--and the goats (who we didn't tie up) just got in line and followed behind them. We realized the mistake and had to go run down the goats.


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## tweedmadsen (Nov 16, 2007)

http://www.highuintapackgoats.com/


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## EPEK (Sep 11, 2007)

Can goats go in no dog areas?


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Don't forget to name them...like...Jumper, Nosey, Snoopy, Stinky, Fred, Sal, and Loppy.  

Goats have personality's just like a lot of members on this forum, they gotta have names. 

Are you listening to me elk22hunter ?


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

I think I'll buy 4 ad name them hillbilly, idiot, Zim and Jbass (He's the one I'll slaughter for rack of goat at thanksgiving.). :mrgreen:


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## idiot with a bow (Sep 10, 2007)

EPEK said:


> Can goats go in no dog areas?


I think we just found a loop hole!!!!


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

**** straight. I'm taking my dogs to the park and letting them poop all over creation.


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

Ant then.....you have to learn the language....  .

..turn your volume on...


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

That was a dandy video. Don't you wish that you had a swing set like that in your back yard? I don't have any talking goats but I do have about 20 goats at the present. I have never packed one because I have a bunch of horses as well. I can ride horses but not goats. If I am going to deal with the hassels of having an animal with me, I am surely going to make it one that is useful. 
Instead of taking a Whether, I would take a nanny. You could milk it at night, let the milk cool over night and have captain crunch all day. That is better than having dry meals that you just add water to. You would carry dry stuff in and the milk would just keep making itself. I guess that you could do that with a mare as well. See the goats have nothing on a horse. They can pack 40 lbs vs. 150 +. That just makes no sense at all.


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

Oooooh, Imagine the exotic cheeses one could make at elk camp. Mmmmmmmm.


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

I don't know if any of you have cleaned the sheath on a gelding but there is some cheese in there also. I don't think that it would taste good but nonetheless....................it's cheese!


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## lionhunter (Sep 11, 2007)

What happens when you put your trophy deer rack on one of them and it runs away because they are not tied up? :? :lol:


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

Just not a horse guy- Goats imprinted on you don't leave you period. I might put $150 or so bucks a year in to each goat- is that what horses cost ?
The deal is I like packing not riding- keeps me in shape and I enjoy every second of it.
My wife enjoys it, and I can toss a goat on it's back if it really pisses me off. 
My goats can go where a horse can not. About 8 years ago I was packing into the Boulders with about 48# on my back. I reached a lake and looked across the way and saw a guy with 2 goats with saddles and panniers. I knew every sheep and goat joke there was and I recited everyone of them around camp that night. Then it dawned on me that he was probably eating steaks and sleeping in a bigger tent than I was. 
So I started researching the deal. Looked better and better everything I looked further into it.
It's each to his own. A horse carries a lot more and you ride. A goat has 1/10 the waste , clean up and cost. It's just how you percieve your existence and want to live it.
Hell, I fly fish to and drink micro brews. I also shovel **** , see hunting as a integral part of man's life and I've been thrown out of the bar in Labarge, Wy.


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## bwhntr (Sep 12, 2007)

Interesting...

BTW elk22, don't ever talk about cheese again!


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## utfireman (Sep 7, 2007)

Do you hobble them or high line them when you head out to do your daily hunting?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Greg 
you can't take them into areas where dogs are not allowed. They are only allowed in certain area on the Wasatch front. I used to have 7 pack goats but I am down to 2.

Goats are a lot of fun for my kids. They enjoy hiking with them. This allows me to get them into backpacking early without having to carry everything myself. 

















Scouting trips are made easier. I can pack salt blocks, trail cameras, water into a few honey holes.









I have used them to pack two of my deer off the Wasatch Front also. I was probably one of the first to ever use pack goats on the Wasatch front or even in Utah for hunting. Goats are probably one of the best kept secrets is hunting the rut for mule deer. I like to take their panniers off and spray doe in heat urin on them. I then look for areas that are thick with scrub oak and just call the big bucks in. The goats add the head butting sounds, and the sounds of deer moving through the leaves as well as eating leaves. All of this decoying should be illegal the bucks come in and it too late. Then you have a way to get the deer out. Try that with a horse!

Goats are the cheapest, easiest to take care of pack stock around. The only down side is the amount of weight they can haul.

Here are a few bucks I have gotten out on goats.
First year hunting with young goats








Fully grown goat around 200lbs 









If you are looking for a pack goat pay the extra money and get one from someone that is breeding them for packing and not for milk. I would recommend Charlie Groggin form Fallen Nevada her goats are around 37 to 40 inches tall at the shoulder and any where from 220-280 lbs. goats can carry up to 30% of their body weight you do the math.

Here is a link to one of my pack information posts. This should also get you the charlies web page it is critter farms or something.
http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-bin/d ... rchive=yes


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## elk22hunter (Sep 7, 2007)

swbuckmaster said:


> Try that with a horse!


Try packing a wall tent with a goat! 

I'm just giving you crap. Those are cool photo's.

It looks like you would only be able to use camp equipment similar to what you would have to use if you were packing the things in on your own back.

What if you shoot an elk? Do you make many trips or take 20 goats? Do you cut the antlers into small enough peices to carry? These are real questions but I have added a bit of sarcasm. Sorry for that but I'm just funnin' ya.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

We still camp light as we can but we don’t carry anything except the bow and our pack with water. If we are in an area that has a lot of moisture the goats can go for a couple of days with out water. This makes it nice not having to go for water like you would with a horse everyday. 

Some day when I shoot an elk with my goats I will have to see how I get it out. I used to have 7 goats back then it wouldn’t have been a problem to get my gear and elk meat out. With the three I have now I could probably get most of the meat out in one trip but would have to come back for my camp, horns and cape. I have my goat and a friend’s goat that can pack up to 60-90 lbs each right now. The third one is only capable of carrying 50 because of his size.

Goats are the poor mans pack stock for sure. If I had the time and money I would rather have a horse. On a cow hunt a few years ago and 7 miles in we shot 4 elk in one evening and got all 4 out in 1.5 feet of snow with horses and a couple of mules. This would have only been a pipe dream with goats. 

They both have their purpose and I am lucky to have access to both if I need too.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

Not sure if I missed this....but how far can a goat with pack go in a day? 12-14 miles doable with load? Will they tolerate dogs being near? Would be great to use on our ptarmigan hunts.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

If you are hunting birds with your dogs and your dogs don’t chase your goats the goats wont have a problem with them. There are a few guys that use them to carry birds, water for dogs and lunches.

As for hiking goes a goat will perform as well as you do packing the same amount of weight. If you are packing 50 lbs you can’t just hike up the hill without taking a break. The steeper the grade the more breaks you will need to take. You probably won’t want to hike 12 miles in a day with a 50 lb pack unless you are in pretty good shape also. The same goes for a goat.

When I use my goats I usually put equal amount of weight on myself and each one of the goats. This way I can set the pace and every goat can keep up. When I get tired they get tired. It seems to be the most efficient way to travel.

I think two goats are the best way to go for a solo rifle deer hunt. The deer are usually far enough a way the goats with packs on wont scare them. And when you get a deer you will never have a problem getting one out.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

SW thanks for sharing; that is pretty cool. You better not have that one with the big horns anymore; I can just see some idiot shooting that one thinking that they had some wild exotic animal; paint the horns orange.


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## SteepNDeep (Sep 11, 2007)

What kind of concerns do you need to have related to weeds and their feed. I know nothing about horses etc. but have seen the signs and regs on weed free food etc. Is that hard to manage? I assume the same problems exist with goats right?

BTW thanks for sharing. I'm not in a place where a goat would work for me, but dream about horses or something to save me and my habits for when I'm fat. I'm already addicted to the high country, too late to for that. You guys ever hear of someone losing a goat to a fall? In cliffy terrain I've been pretty close to falling myself once or twice where mountain goats are near and would be ok. Do these goats fare just as well? I assume with a lot of weight it might be dangerous for them as well. Have you ever taken them somewhere you regretted? And here's for the goats- knowing as little as I do about both I still would not picture a horse going everywhere a goat would. I don't know if horses go across large sized boulder fields, but I assume the goats can. What about grade? What wins on steep slopes?


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

"What kind of concerns do you need to have related to weeds and their feed. I know nothing about horses etc. but have seen the signs and regs on weed free food etc. Is that hard to manage? I assume the same problems exist with goats right?"

No you don't have problems with feed because you don't pack hay for goats.

"And here's for the goats- knowing as little as I do about both I still would not picture a horse going everywhere a goat would. I don't know if horses go across large sized boulder fields, but I assume the goats can. What about grade? What wins on steep slopes?"

Goats will go where no horse has ever gone before. I have taken them in dead fall timber and they jump up and over or crawl under it. Boulder fields are a piece of cake. I once passed a guy on a trail trying to get his horse around a fallen tree in the trail. The tree had fall in a steep part of the trail and he could not get his horse around it. I stayed back and watched for a while because I didn't want to spook his horse any more than it already was. After he got his horse under control I just went right up the hill above the tree. He just turned around and went back down.

"Have you ever taken them somewhere you regretted?"

I have been on a trail on a cliff that was about 12 feet or so up I was right behind my friend and a goat tried to pass me from behind. Once it got its head between the cliff and myself it was every man for himself. The goat weighed 220 lbs and had a 50 lb pack on I only weigh 180 lbs and only have two legs for traction. The goat won and the only thing that saved me was I grabbed the pack as it went by and it drug me back on the trail. I wanted to kill it after that.

As for boulders and slopes goats will win hands down their feet are made for climbing. 
Here is the only pictur I can find in rough terrain 








after taking off the packs the goats head for high ground for a rest.









Here is about 4 feet of frozen snow pack. As you can see by my tracks I slid off and the goats kept on going.


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## Extex (Sep 11, 2007)

True story I heard couple seasons ago on the rifle hunt - local guys very smart son got him 2 pack goats and trained them supposedly. Went into the deep creeks with his 2 goats solo on the ml deer hunt and spent most of the day hiking to the top only to turn around at the top and see fluffy and bob high tailing it back to the bottom all the way to the truck. Hiked back to the truck - tied fluffy and bob up and led them back to the top - spent 4 or 5 days on top hunting with fluffy and bob with no other problems - woke up the last morning to no fluffy and bob. Took 3 trips to get all his gear out. He did put the word out that a bullet to the head was justifiable for fluffy and bob if anyone saw them on the rifle hunt :lol:

I don't remember the actual names of the runaways but you get the idea - it was hilarious to hear dad tell this on his son and he was dead serious on "shoot those sob's if you see them" Went spent the whole rifle hunt that year joking on fluffy and bob sightings.

I'd make sure they were "trained" at least a runaway horse will probably go to the truck and not a different zip code.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

The goats you described would have been shot or sold if they were mine. It sounds like they were dam raised by its mother and she wasn’t bonded to humans. Don’t just buy any goat. Buy a goat that has come from a pack goat breeder. These goats have been bottle fed or come from goats that are bonded to humans. They will never leave you.

My goats might go off a hundred yards but the first coyote that howls sends them running right back to your tent. Usually you will have the problem of them trying to sleep on the side of your tent or on top of you bivy sack like a big dog. This is one reason we use the Clark Jungle Hammock. 

Goat training. There really isn’t a way of training them to pack. Getting them to pack only requires a pack. Every goat I have ever had followed me without a lead and with a pack the first time out no problems and no training.


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## Packfish (Oct 30, 2007)

A pack goat breeder does help . Though I have a buddy would proves that it's not always needed. His Sannen's are beasts , as big as any anywhere,. He did bottle feed his
and they are imprinted on him and won't leave. Mine were bottle fed by me and I did get them from a breeder. Mine have never been more than 20 yards from camp ever. My Lamancha is 39" and my Alpines are 38 and 37 respectively . The first two will grow and bit for another year and the last one for another 2. I also would have shot those goats above .They will do what they can get away with. If anyone evers gets into them, I would suggest 2 things. You bottle raise them ,no matter where you get them, if at all feasible and get yourself a spray bottle. That one tool on the first few times truck camping will teach your goats what is tolerbale for camp manners and what is not. A few sprays with water and they won't do it again.


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## fixed blade XC-3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Tree when you finally get one of your goats, can I rent one of them.  If it has a bad limp when it gets back, it's because, er ah, I hiked it 50 miles.


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