# Bags or Sled?



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I've been using a cheap, plastic rest for all of my load development and range time but am thinking about an upgrade these days. What are all of you using and/or what do you prefer and why?

Front and rear bags or lead sled with weights....something else?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I built a rest that holds the rifle over its entire length. its rock solid. I built it out of scrap plywood decades ago but its invaluable to me. I've always wanted to rebuild it in oak or something nicer. 


-DallanC


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

Bags.. IMO sleds are good if your only shooting out of sleds.
again, just my opinion but, I think when you shoot out of sleds, it doesnt allow your gun to recoil naturally as opposed to bags. This had been my experience. I do all my shooting off my bipod with bags in the back to rest my stock on. 
Otherwise, my shoulder catches all the recoil. When I put my gun in a sled, my grouping always impacts the target in a different spot. when I jump back onto my bipod, my impact goes back to where it needs to be. (yes, I'm extremely stable with my bipod and bags.)
considering all my guns are hunting rifles, I want to shoot my rifles on the range as naturally as i would out hunting..

I did all my load development for my 270short off my bipod and bags, I was able to get my gun to shoot 1/2 moa at 800 yards

again, just my opinion..


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## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

I agree with goosefreak. I don't use a bipod but I shoot off a front rest and rear bag. Ya some days I should have stayed home because I can't shoot a group but most days I'm steady and get it done. All my load development has been off this rest. I also don't leave the range until I take a 100 yard offhand shot at the steal plate with the firearms I brought. One can never have to much practice shooting offhand.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Rear bag and whatever is available for a front rest. I made my own bags from old denim jeans and leftover playground sand, I've been very happy with them. I also like the front rests they have at Lee Kay that are just stacked 2x4s covered with carpet.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Good Bipod and bags at the rear.


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## RG the OG (Oct 31, 2016)

DerekP how big did you make your bags out of denim? That sounds like an ingenious idea I might have to try it.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Bags. I own a sled. 

Bags are more stable


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

I use a manufactured rest and sand bags both. Bags I made out of used shot bags filled with sand after lead shot was used up. Have had bags for 45 years.

I like using the rest to work on loads. As I get older I am not as steady as I used to be. In my mind, it removes some of the human factor. I guess it lets me know that when I see a flyer it is me and not the gun or load. I use the sand bags, off hand, and other techniques to work on me factor.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Lots of good input so far...

I try to remove as much of the “human factor” as possible during load development as well and was under the impression that a sled would accomplish this better than bags. The less I have to touch/hold the rifle the less chance I have of screwing it up, right?

I’ve heard a couple of you say that you try to do the same but also that you try to shoot in as “real” of a situation as possible...can you really do both? Does anyone carry rear bags and/or a rest with them into the field?

I’d like to be able to develop a load that shoots perfectly without my errors playing a role, then practice with it shooting more “naturally” until I can shoot as well as it did without me (or close anyways). That way I know the errors are mine and not the load.

Some days I can’t shoot worth a **** and I may very well be passing up an ideal load and wasting materials because my errors made me think it wasn’t the right load combination.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

RG the OG said:


> DerekP how big did you make your bags out of denim? That sounds like an ingenious idea I might have to try it.


I got the dimensions from a set of Caldwell and Cabela's brand bags that I liked. It's really a good little project. They are definitely heavy and I've considered dumping the sand and refilling them with the little foam balls they use in bean bag chairs to make them lighter, but for range/benchtop I'm happy with them.

I would say just shop around a bit and see what style of bags you like and copy them, if you are skilled (or know somebody skilled) with running a sewing machine you can customize them however you like.

Here's some pics and a bit of "how to": http://utahbiggameodds.blogspot.com/p/diy-projects.html


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Even with a couple bags of lead on my lead sled, the rifle causes the sled to move a little on the bench. It seems less than natural to me (compared to how it would work against the shoulder) so I think bags will be better because it will be every bit as stable (if not more) but also allow the rifle to function more naturally compared to being in a device that absorbs recoil differently than a human body.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I'm going to Google it but does recoil really have any effect on bullet accuracy, other than from a shooter flinching due to mental prediction of course? 

My initial thought is that the recoil doesn't actually take place until the bullet has already left the muzzle thereby negating its effect on bullet trajectory.

Something to do with equal and opposite reaction and all that...


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

KineKilla said:


> Lots of good input so far...
> 
> I try to remove as much of the "human factor" as possible during load development as well and was under the impression that a sled would accomplish this better than bags. The less I have to touch/hold the rifle the less chance I have of screwing it up, right?
> 
> ...


When I collect data, when I say shoot as natural as I can to the real thing I'm mostly referring to the recoil.. I want natural recoil, I do believe a gun will shoot different from a sled vs bags and a human body catching recoil. Like I mentioned, I saw the difference in my shooting when shoot my bipod and bags side by side, my little brother experienced the same thing with his gun this last year.. 
I think your recoil is going to start the second the bullet leaves the casing. That's where the explosion is happening...

Of course I'm not gonna Cary bags with me hunting but, I have used my backpack or a jacket in the same way as bags while out hunting.. you'll never replicate a led sled out hunting unless you take one with you..

You will find that bags are surprisingly stable.. I bought a led sled to collect my data and I discovered this finomina that I am talking about, I immediately took it back and I'll stick to my bags, point being, when my gun was in that sled, it was no more stable than my bags and I had 15 lbs of weight on it..

Hey, I'm with you on the shooting meaning, there were days I went out and my shooting just down right sucked.. you'll know when you do and when that happens, you just need to go home and try again another day, that too in itself is practice IMO

Can't argue with an 800yd 1/2 MOA with bipod and bags....
I'm not saying you can't shoot good out of a sled, I'm saying your POI could change when it matters most


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

goosefreak said:


> ...Can't argue with an 800yd 1/2 MOA with bipod and bags....
> I'm not saying you can't shoot good out of a sled, *I'm saying your POI could change when it matters most*


POI is one thing while group size is another, correct?

When I am developing a load I care very little about POI (within reason of course) and a whole lot more about consistent and tight grouping. Once the ideal load is found, I adjust my scope to put the group where I want it (POI).

I would never take a load into the hunting woods without having shot it without a sled or whatever to see how it performs in "real life". I just want to find the load the fastest and most economical way possible.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

KineKilla said:


> I've heard a couple of you say that you try to do the same but also that you try to shoot in as "real" of a situation as possible...can you really do both? Does anyone carry rear bags and/or a rest with them into the field?


I've thought about carrying a rear bag in the field. I think this could be done easily enough with a bag of the right materials... I've often thought about getting one of those airplane neck pillows and cutting it in half or thirds. I saw a YouTube video from Randy Newberg with one of the Howa guys (https://na01.safelinks.protection.o...xSHL4S6hLY0dKvWryrYcC3kiuoNYX41r8=&reserved=0) and he had a neat little rear bag that he used and he talked about how to use it in the field at about the 4:25 mark.

But I've also been quite successful in using my pack as a rest and stuffing my jacket under the rear of the rifle as support.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I seldom get a shot opportunity that affords me the time to get down on bags, sled or even a bipod. I think every animal I have ever shot has been from either a kneeling/crouched, sitting or standing position.

I carry shooting sticks with me every season and I think I've used them once so far. Guess that's yet one more thing to work on this year...


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

You aren’t shooting long range kneeling, crouching, sitting or standing off hand then.. that comment makes me think of shooting a deer that you jumped up or spooked or something of the sort. Those kind of shots don’t require much data collecting. Sight your gun it at 200 yards and call it a day.

2” at 100 yards is far greater at 800
Grouping means nothing if your 3 feet off target
Sounds like most people here prefer bags but, you’ve already made up your mind you want to use a sled and you want some affirmation.

I think your original question was meant to ask which sled should you get..

For that question, I’m no help to you


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

You're mixing benchrest and field shooting... they're two separate things and should be considered separately. Whether you use bags or a sled at the range for load development is irrelevant, pick the one you prefer and use it. Then once the load development is complete practice in realistic hunting scenarios which would most likely not include shooting from a sled or a complex series of bags... more likely sitting, kneeling, standing, and various rests both planned and improvised.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

For those looking for bags there is a guy that frequents the gun shows that has been selling bags for $5-10.00 depending on size. He makes them out of camo canvas and fills them with a light material. I used them now for about 3 years and for the $$$ they can't be beat.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

goosefreak said:


> You aren't shooting long range kneeling, crouching, sitting or standing off hand then.. that comment makes me think of shooting a deer that you jumped up or spooked or something of the sort. Those kind of shots don't require much data collecting. Sight your gun it at 200 yards and call it a day.
> 
> 2" at 100 yards is far greater at 800
> Grouping means nothing if your 3 feet off target
> ...


You may be right.

However, I think what I was really going for was whether the sled or bag would give me the better stability during development. I think that a sled would but was hoping for an argument from those that have used both that may change my mind.

It is true that most of the game I've harvested has been less than 300yds and actually the last 3 animals have been at less than 100...maybe 100 between all three of them combined.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

well, aren't I giving you an argument?

Im just speaking from my experience is all. I prefer the bags because it allows for a natural recoil similar to a hunting situation. Although i'm not shooting a deer off of bags, I'm still getting the same recoil out of it.
All i'm focused on is from the time I pull the trigger to the time that bullet leaves the barrel. ( I think a lot can happen in that amount of time/distance)

I guess, when I think of collecting data, I think of 500-1000 yards, and I'm collecting click data for a turret

Of course it would be silly to pack out a bunch of bags around hunting but, all the animals iv taken with a rifle I'v been able to prepare for so, i'v used my bipod in prone position and sometimes i have used jackets/backpacks for extra stability..
I too have killed all my big game (except for 1 elk) under 400 yards. Up until I started hunting Deer in Arizona again. Now the last two animals I have taken was a Couse deer right at 500 yards, and the other was another Couse deer last season that ranged in at a whopping 1016 yards!
I just dialed it up and shot.

I guess you have to ask yourself, what do you want to accomplish with your rifle?

For me I HAVE to have a 1/2 MOA gun because I feel in the heat of the moment that I will be able to shoot at least a MOA group at any given distance, which I think is acceptable.

I'm telling you, (from my experience) I use a bipod up front (you could use bags or whatever but, my Bipod/bag combo is absolutely stable.. Yes, your touching the gun but, look at it this way, it gives you an opportunity to practice breathing control

heck, I didn't realize how little i knew about shooting until I started shooting and reloading for long range.. 

as for my experience with the sled and bags side by side. with the sled, my 3 shot group was 2-3" left of bullseye but, when I jumped back onto my bags it was right on the money.
yeah, probably wont amount to much from 0-200 yards but, 700-800 yards, you could miss by 2 feet


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

If you're looking to completely eliminate the human variable in load development then you'd need to look at a sled with a remote trigger device. I've looked into them but I've heard things about sleds actually damaging rifles because of the unnatural distribution of recoil... 

Didn't Goob have a stock crack in a sled?


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

Remote trigger device!? Well, now that's a horse of a different color.

Given the relatively low cost, I think I'll get a set of bags (front and rear) and try them out. If they don't work out or I don't like them I can always get the sled instead or go back to my cheap plastic sled.

Besides the homemade versions are there any that people seem to prefer? Caldwell perhaps?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I picked up a set of Cabela's stack and shoot bags and like them for shooting off of a bench.

I have also used a Outters Rifle Rest which also works quite well.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

I use a sled to sight in and sometimes a bi pod to hunt. I've started using scope mounted Levels to sight in and hunt with for longer shots. My groups shrunk.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

Heres the thing about sled vs bags specifically for load development. yes you 'may' be more precise on a sled than you are behind a bag (though I shoot probably 2k+ rounds a year from a bipod/rear bag combo so I bet the sled would actually feel weird and make me shoot worse). but either way if you are shooting slowly and conscientiously from a bag/bipod combo, the sled may give you slightly tighter groups, but the best load will still most likely shoot the best group no matter what you shoot from. so that being said, why waist the time shooting from a sled and then turning around and shooting from a 'more natural' setup to actually sight in. like was mentioned, 200yds and in and data really doesn't matter. but farther out and you likely have time to lay down and get your rifle on your pack even if you don't carry a bipod. so shooting from front and rear bags does come pretty close to natural. just my two cents.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

KineKilla said:


> Remote trigger device!? Well, now that's a horse of a different color.


Some look a bit like a prop from the Austin Powers movie... but they're out there. And a lot of ranges don't allow them.


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## Jmgardner (Sep 17, 2014)

I feel like improving your shooting game should always be approached with the low-hanging fruit method. if you are spending tons of time at the reloading bench refining a load, and yet you need a automated trigger puller, or sled for that matter, you have a lot of opportunity to improve your 'trigger pulling' ability that would provide more return-on-investment for the time spent. best reloads in the world wont matter if you don't have the fundamentals nailed down to be able to trust how consistent your form is shot to shot. 

a sled or automated trigger puller just seem like unnecessary cost and complication.


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Jmgardner said:


> a sled or automated trigger puller just seem like unnecessary cost and complication.


Never let practicality get in the way of your next purchase.


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