# In, on or off the lands?



## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

How do you guys prefer to set your hand loads? I have always gone off the reloading book's suggested OAL and had good success with that, but the .264 win mag I am currently working up loads on, just won't pattern like I expect form a custom built gun. I have spoken to the barrel manufacturer and the guy who built the gun and they both felt that my seating depth is likely too deep. They have given me suggestions but figured I would get a few more opinions. I will share their opinions after I get a few responses. I don't want to put their info up and sway suggestions from others.

I am shooting a 142gr. Sierra Match King in a 1-9" twist Douglas Match Barrel trued, and lapped to a blueprinted Mauser action that has been epoxy bedded. 

So short question made long, what do you suggest? Push the bullet into the lands? How much? Just touching? Off the lands? How much?

Thanks guys


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You are going to have to decide the seating depth yourself for your rifle. I have a 30-06 that likes the bullet seated deep and another 30-06 that wants the bullet almost touching. The over all length of a round is just a set length for factory ammo. The only thing that you need to go by is the magazine on your rifle for the shells, if the bullet is seated out too far it may not fit.


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

Critter said:


> The only thing that you need to go by is the magazine on your rifle for the shells, if the bullet is seated out too far it may not fit.


This gun is not likely to be used in the field. It was built for a target competition gun so, though it has a magazine, it will likely always be shot as a single shot.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

I've had the best luck seating them .015 off of the lands. That is where I would start. go up and down from there.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

I use the old method of smoking the bullet and seat it as close as I can to the lands. Now days they use a felt pen.


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

Al, I use a cut neck case and smoked bullet to establish MAX OAL. It was my first time doing it this way, but it worked very easily. http://www.larrywillis.com/OAL.html

Douglas Barrels told me that they would either start with the bullet seated . 040 OFF the lands as a starting point, lengthening the OAL by .005 increments until the best pattern is produced. OR Start with the bullet seated .010 IN the lands and shorten the OAL by .005 increments until the best pattern is obtained.

The gentleman who built this gun, a former builder for http://www.echolsrifles.com/ (check out the prices of those guns. WOW!), said the old standby was .010 OFF the lands, but some fine tuning from there may be required for optimal accuracy.

What surprised me is that Douglas suggested starting with the pullet so far into the lands. I personally wouldn't start that way due to the increase in pressures, but I guess there is always more than one way to skin a cat.


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

I usually start at .010 off the lands (if the mag permits) then go deeper in .010 increments.
Rifles typically have multiple sweet spots.
Honestly, if a douglas barrel gave poor results with the first load tried - I'd switch bullets all together, try something different.
example: 130gr noslerAB - retumbo xx gr - cci250 - xx seating depth if that first load tried shoots more than 2moa - then I'd likely not try that bullet ever again in that barrel. IMHO trying different depths, primers, charges, ect would be a waste of time and components. that bullet will likely never shoot sub 1/2moa in that barrel.
now factory barrels are a completely different story - if they shoot 2 to 3 moa i can typically tweak the load to get under 1moa and be happy. but you didnt pay for a custom 1moa gun


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I typically start at with some loaded at .003, .007 and .011 off the lands. I think the numbers came from an article by John Barsness some time in the distant past. Sometimes the deeper ones do better and I’ll load shorter and shorter cartridges until the gun seems happy. I don't load anything closer than .003. Marks on a bullet work fine, but if you are gadget prone an OAL gauge and Comparator are fun to play with and in my mind more accurate. The comparator allows you to measure cartridge length at the point on the bullet that the diameter on the ogive reaches the barrel inside diameter at the top of the lands. You have to have your own calipers and you have to buy a modified case for each size cartridge you load. Mine are Stoney Point. Hornady markets them now.


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

And I have the special tap to make my own modified cases. I'd be more than happy to thread a few for any of you fellers


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Please spill the beans. I tried every thread pitch gauge I could lay hands on and nothing fit. What is it?


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

chet said:


> but you didnt pay for a custom 1moa gun


Exactly!

My best results to date are ~1MOA. I am hoping to tighten that up to at least .5 MOA.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Cooky said:


> Please spill the beans. I tried every thread pitch gauge I could lay hands on and nothing fit. What is it?


The thread pitch to make your own modified cases is 5/16-36NS. You won't find them in stores. I had to order mine from MSC Direct.

As far as seating depth goes I seat .010 jammed into the lands on my 6.5x284 and my 6mmAI. My 6.5x284 will shoot 1/2 moa at 1000 so aparently it likes that. Both are single shots so mag length is not an issue.
My 257 Wby likes my 100gr Barnes seated deeper than recomended at 3.18,(I can't remember what the jump is). My 338 Edge shoots best at .010 off the lands.
So like the others have said, it pretty much depends on your load, barrel and your bullet.


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

5/16-36 ebay, shipped from Japan.


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

longbow said:


> As far as seating depth goes I seat .010 jammed into the lands on my 6.5x284 and my 6mmAI. My 6.5x284 will shoot 1/2 moa at 1000 so aparently it likes that. Both are single shots so mag length is not an issue.


What bullet and powder are you using in the 6.5x.284?

My father in law recently had Cross Canyon build him a 6.5x.284 that is amazing. He is shooting the same Sierra Match King 142gr. as I am and I believe IMR 4831 powder. He is getting some amazing patterns. He and I each shot a sub .20 MOA group of 3 @ 100 yds with the load we have settled on. He has several sub .50 MOA @ 300 with his gun. We haven't punched paper beyond that yet. I am hoping to get something similar out of this .264 win mag.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

Joel Draxler said:


> longbow said:
> 
> 
> > As far as seating depth goes I seat .010 jammed into the lands on my 6.5x284 and my 6mmAI. My 6.5x284 will shoot 1/2 moa at 1000 so aparently it likes that. Both are single shots so mag length is not an issue.
> ...


I have a couple comments about your post.

Cross Canyon rifles are top-notch. I don't own one because I have an incredible gun-plumber already, but everything I've heard about them is very positive.

The 6.5x284 is an inherently accurate caliber in most all platforms.

I have never found a Sierra MK that I couldn't get to shoot really well.

.20 and .50 groups are very, very good groups!

A .264 is one of my favorite calibers. I would love to hear how well this one shoots.

[attachment=0:2pzxfr4e]DSC00481.JPG[/attachment:2pzxfr4e]
The 6.5x284 is flanked by a 338 Edge on the left and a.257 Weatherby on the right. My load for the 6.5x284 is 48.5 grains of H4350, 140 Amax at COL of 3.141.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Couple of questions, Joel:

Did you consider a 1:8" twist? Which Mauser action and why?

I've played with a comparator in the past, but it's hard to get definitive results in my experience. I think if you're not getting sub MOA groups at .010" off the lands, something else needs to be changed.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

.


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> Couple of questions, Joel:
> 
> Did you consider a 1:8" twist? Which Mauser action and why?
> 
> I've played with a comparator in the past, but it's hard to get definitive results in my experience. I think if you're not getting sub MOA groups at .010" off the lands, something else needs to be changed.


A 1:9 was what Douglas suggested when the barrel was ordered, based on the bullets I wanted to shoot, our climate and the intended use of the gun. I don't even know which Mauser action it is. I will try to remember to look. It was used because it was available on a 7mm that my brother in law no longer used.

I shot through the chrono this weekend and was shocked at the speeds I am shooting. Douglas suggested keeping bullet speeds around 2900 FPS and every load I had loaded to test was running well over 3000 FPS with one load cresting 3100. Looks like I may just be pushing the bullets too fast. According to my reloading book (Sierra) I should be running between 2800-3000. This is why it pays to shoot through a chrono rather than just figure the book is right on velocity for your individual gun.


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## Bo0YaA (Sep 29, 2008)

Ive actually been trying to decide the same thing. All the manuals say 3.34 COAL for my 300 win but seeings how I'm using a single shot and not a magazine fed gun I'm trying to figure out where to seat my bullets and still be safe.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Good info guys, thanks for sharing your knowledge!


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Donttreadonme said:


> A 1:9 was what Douglas suggested when the barrel was ordered, based on the bullets I wanted to shoot, our climate and the intended use of the gun. I don't even know which Mauser action it is. I will try to remember to look. It was used because it was available on a 7mm that my brother in law no longer used.
> 
> I shot through the chrono this weekend and was shocked at the speeds I am shooting. Douglas suggested keeping bullet speeds around 2900 FPS and every load I had loaded to test was running well over 3000 FPS with one load cresting 3100. Looks like I may just be pushing the bullets too fast. According to my reloading book (Sierra) I should be running between 2800-3000. This is why it pays to shoot through a chrono rather than just figure the book is right on velocity for your individual gun.


A few years later now, what did you figure out on this one? It might be good to add to the recipes forum, if you choose. I got a new Creedmor and I saved a ton of time and money being able to go off of what others had already found with some rough ideas of COAL, powder, velocity and powder amount, I was on the sweet spot first time out and I only needed one type of powder and bullet.


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## fishreaper (Jan 2, 2014)

I've always been told to keep them around .005 inches off of the lands, because having them on the lands is likely to produce extreme over pressure especially as your charge increases.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

'Ole Roy Weatherby hated being near the lands though didn't he. Incorporated a bunch of extra freebore in his calibers. Just say'n.


-DallanC


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

chet said:


> I usually start at .010 off the lands (if the mag permits) then go deeper in .010 increments.
> Rifles typically have multiple sweet spots.
> Honestly, if a douglas barrel gave poor results with the first load tried - I'd switch bullets all together, try something different.
> example: 130gr noslerAB - retumbo xx gr - cci250 - xx seating depth if that first load tried shoots more than 2moa - then I'd likely not try that bullet ever again in that barrel. IMHO trying different depths, primers, charges, ect would be a waste of time and components. that bullet will likely never shoot sub 1/2moa in that barrel.
> now factory barrels are a completely different story - if they shoot 2 to 3 moa i can typically tweak the load to get under 1moa and be happy. but you didnt pay for a custom 1moa gun


Chet is right on with his post. Your other option, if you are dead set with your load, is to put a harmonics dampener on the barrel and move it up and down the barrel to gain the best pattern. One other thing you can do is down load on the powder charge and touch the rifling's. However if this is a hunting rig I would not do that as you may have a hard time chaimbering a round at the most in opportune time. Big


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