# anterless drawing



## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I'm about to apply my kids and myself for any weapon anterless elk tags. I was looking at these hunts. My kids are 12 and 14, but small for their age, so hiking in snow deeper than 8-10 inches is a bit tough for them. But, if there were snow on the ground I think I'd be able to break trail with snow shoes for them and they'd do ok. They don't stay warm that well, so sitting in 10 degree weather for hours might be hard as well. For these hunts I have listed, are there any that you would immediately throw out the window? If so, why?

ea1052	Jan 16 - Jan 31, 2021	Nine Mile, Avintaquin-West Anthro
ea1210	Oct 3 - Oct 25, 2020	east of la sals around taylor creek
ea1068	Jan 2 - Jan 10, 2021	panguitch lake, i15 to h89, h20 to h14
ea1094	Nov 14 - Dec 27, 2020	SS NW of vernal
ea1093	Jan 2 - Jan 31, 2021	around vernal
ea1049	Dec 5 - Dec 20, 2020	east side of mt dutton, west of osirus
ea1190	Jan 9 - Jan 31, 2021	tushars: mtn highway to i70, i15 to marysvale
ea1035	Oct 3 - Oct 25, 2020, Nov 7, 2020 - Jan 3, 2021	NS kamas to bald mtn
ea1214	Dec 12, 2020 - Jan 3, 2021	SW desert near garrison and around highway 21
ea1054	Dec 12-31	S of duchesne to argyle canyon, E of highway 191
ea1066	Dec 5 - Dec 13, 2020	panguitch lake, i15 to h89, h20 to h14
ea1067	dec 19-27	panguitch lake, i15 to h89, h20 to h14


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

Pick the area you know the best

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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

ea1049 (dutton/deep creek) would be hard, especially for kids. The elk will be high, and little to no road access.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Anthro is a tough one. The elk tend to stay on private ground that time of year, and conditions can be pretty unpleasant. 

The October hunt around Taylor creek could be pretty good. There's a lot of private ground, but you can also find nice pockets of public land that the elk use pretty regularly. Weather shouldn't be too cold, but you never know how it will be up around 8k feet in October. 

Have you looked at any CWMUs? Those are awesome options for kids on antlerless hunts IMO.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

PBH said:


> ea1049 (dutton/deep creek) would be hard, especially for kids. The elk will be high, and little to no road access.


I was actually kind of hoping to do that one, with or without kids. There's no road access? What about Deer Creek road and Deer Creek Black Canyon road that run up the mountain from Osirus?

I've not actually been there before so I'm only working off of maps for some of these areas at this point.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

johnnycake said:


> Anthro is a tough one. The elk tend to stay on private ground that time of year, and conditions can be pretty unpleasant.
> 
> The October hunt around Taylor creek could be pretty good. There's a lot of private ground, but you can also find nice pockets of public land that the elk use pretty regularly. Weather shouldn't be too cold, but you never know how it will be up around 8k feet in October.
> 
> Have you looked at any CWMUs? Those are awesome options for kids on antlerless hunts IMO.


Thanks! I have looked at the CWMUs. The only couple I found had a draw odd last year of 1 in 3.5 and 1 in 5 for people with zero points. So, I was thinking I'd probably apply for those, but have a solid decision on the others as my backup.

Also, I mistyped the anthro one. That's actually Nine Mile, Avintaquin-West Anthro. Is it still the case with private ground on that one?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

I’ve done the avintaquin several times, those were the hardest elk hunts I’ve ever had. If there’s snow to push the elk in the hunt area, seeing elk isn’t the issue. It’s getting to them that’s tough. Steep and brutal country. If there isn’t snow, it’s tough to locate cows. Bulls are easy to find. It’s also usually very cold that time of year. That isn’t what I’d call a kid friendly hunt in any scenario you would find yourself in that area.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

At the time of the anterless hunts I don't believe that there is a child friendly hunt out there. It's cold and you really need snow on the ground to get them down to the lower elevations.

I personally think that if you want your kids to be able to harvest a animal to look at the doe tags instead of cow elk tags. Also without points the draw may just be a pipe dream, that is unless the DOW allows youth tags for the anterless hunts. I am not familiar with the anterless draws since I don't apply for them.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

Critter said:


> At the time of the anterless hunts I don't believe that there is a child friendly hunt out there. It's cold and you really need snow on the ground to get them down to the lower elevations.
> 
> I personally think that if you want your kids to be able to harvest a animal to look at the doe tags instead of cow elk tags. Also without points the draw may just be a pipe dream, that is unless the DOW allows youth tags for the anterless hunts. I am not familiar with the anterless draws since I don't apply for them.


20% of the tags (elk, deer and pronghorn) are allocated to youth and the draw odds are much better.

+1 for the CWMUs for youth.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I'll echo MooseMeat that the Avintaquin is tough as can be--and there is still a bunch of private land to deal with. 

And brisket nailed it. The 20% youth tag allocation helps skew the odds in their favor a lot, and I'm reasonably confident that it applies to CWMU antlerless as well.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

johnnycake said:


> And brisket nailed it. The 20% youth tag allocation helps skew the odds in their favor a lot, and I'm reasonably confident that it applies to CWMU antlerless as well.


Correct, the 20% does apply to CWMU antlerless.

You can see the youth allocation here: https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/bg/2019/19_youth_antlerless_drawing_odds_report.pdf


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Critter said:


> At the time of the anterless hunts I don't believe that there is a child friendly hunt out there.


That's not true. Antlerless hunts, including elk, are very child friendly. 6 months to 18 months old, my kid was there for 3 successful cow elk hunts. You just need to do the research to find units and areas that hold animals that kids can get into

https://utahwildlife.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=142071&stc=1&d=1591408461

https://utahwildlife.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=142073&stc=1&d=1591408490

https://utahwildlife.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=142075&stc=1&d=1591408531


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

MooseMeat said:


> That's not true. Antlerless hunts, including elk, are very child friendly. 6 months to 18 months old, my kid was there for 3 successful cow elk hunts. You just need to do the research to find units and areas that hold animals that kids can get into
> 
> https://utahwildlife.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=142071&stc=1&d=1591408461
> 
> ...


Oh, I know of several areas, but they were not mentioned and like a great fishing hole I won't mention them.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Based on how you described your kids, look at hunts in (early) Oct. Follow the bugles, and you'll find the cows.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Thanks for the replies and the info on the youth drawing odds. I'm not sure how I missed those and the fact that the anterless drawing is different for youth.

I definitely know where I can find elk for the anterless hunts that they'd be able to get to. My list only has the hunts that are 1:1 odds (or very close) for someone that has zero points... And only looked at the adult draw odds apparently.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Just remember that with good odds of drawing there are trade offs such as poor access or needing snow to drive the elk down. 

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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

rtockstein said:


> Thanks for the replies and the info on the youth drawing odds. I'm not sure how I missed those and the fact that the anterless drawing is different for youth.
> 
> I definitely know where I can find elk for the anterless hunts that they'd be able to get to. My list only has the hunts that are 1:1 odds (or very close) for someone that has zero points... And only looked at the adult draw odds apparently.


They don't readily separate out those draw odds to see youth vs adults. You have to go into the draw report for each and you'll see some tags being drawn with fewer than the Mac points for a given hunt--which under the preference point system shouldn't happen, except for the youth allocation


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

There are some CWMUs that have very doable odds...especially for youth.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I'm going to look over the youth drawing odds for general deer and anterless tonight!!


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

johnnycake said:


> They don't readily separate out those draw odds to see youth vs adults. You have to go into the draw report for each and you'll see some tags being drawn with fewer than the Mac points for a given hunt--which under the preference point system shouldn't happen, except for the youth allocation


They do separate them now. There are two PDFs, on for youth and the other for the regular draw.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

brisket said:


> They do separate them now. There are two PDFs, on for youth and the other for the regular draw.


Well that's cool! I haven't really looked at that in years as none of it applied to my/my family. But I remember back in the stone age having to decipher the youth odds through the murk


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## BigT (Mar 11, 2011)

Did your kids draw a general season deer tag? Unless something changed this year, and I don't think it did, anyone can hunt an antlerless elk tag at the same time as their general season deer tag hunt dates. Plus still hunt the other dates. Just have to use the weapon for your deer permit. 

We did this last year with my son on the LaSal, He had a general season black powder deer tag. He was able to hunt his antlerless elk at the same time. He ended up not getting one, but it wasn't because there wasn't opportunity. 

I would consider that kid friendly, and convenient if you already have the tag. 

Good luck


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

johnnycake said:


> brisket said:
> 
> 
> > They do separate them now. There are two PDFs, on for youth and the other for the regular draw.
> ...


I remember doing that too, lol. It's a step in the right direction separating youth draw odds from the regular draw. Now let's get the statistics for 2nd-5th choices in the draw. DWR, are you listening?


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

BigT said:


> Did your kids draw a general season deer tag? Unless something changed this year, and I don't think it did, anyone can hunt an antlerless elk tag at the same time as their general season deer tag hunt dates. Plus still hunt the other dates. Just have to use the weapon for your deer permit.
> 
> We did this last year with my son on the LaSal, He had a general season black powder deer tag. He was able to hunt his antlerless elk at the same time. He ended up not getting one, but it wasn't because there wasn't opportunity.
> 
> ...


Same applies to doe deer. And other antlerless tags I believe. Meaning if you have for example a private lands cow tag that you are hunting in August, and have a draw cow tag for December on the same unit, you can shoot both cows in August. Assuming you're on private land for both hunts, of course


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

rtockstein said:


> I was actually kind of hoping to do that one, with or without kids. There's no road access? What about Deer Creek road and Deer Creek Black Canyon road that run up the mountain from Osirus?
> 
> I've not actually been there before so I'm only working off of maps for some of these areas at this point.


Once the snow flies, those roads won't be accessible, unless you have a snowmachine. They will keep the paved road (John's Valley road) between Antimony and Bryce Canyon open, but the elk are traditionally higher up on the mountain. The Deer Creek road is a good area, but if there is snow you won't be able to drive it.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

PBH said:


> rtockstein said:
> 
> 
> > I was actually kind of hoping to do that one, with or without kids. There's no road access? What about Deer Creek road and Deer Creek Black Canyon road that run up the mountain from Osirus?
> ...


Did this hunt in January, let's just say my legs got me in further than my truck. Was able to get into the elk and make it a successful hunt but I won't be putting in for it again. Unless I get a sled, which isn't likely.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Ray said:


> Did this hunt in January, *let's just say my legs got me in further than my truck*. Was able to get into the elk and make it a successful hunt but I won't be putting in for it again. Unless I get a sled, which isn't likely.


 Respect walking!!


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

I asked my daughter if she wanted to put in for a cow tag again. "Not if there's snow" I agree it sure made it less fun for sure.
















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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

BigT said:


> Did your kids draw a general season deer tag? Unless something changed this year, and I don't think it did, anyone can hunt an antlerless elk tag at the same time as their general season deer tag hunt dates. Plus still hunt the other dates. Just have to use the weapon for your deer permit.
> 
> We did this last year with my son on the LaSal, He had a general season black powder deer tag. He was able to hunt his antlerless elk at the same time. He ended up not getting one, but it wasn't because there wasn't opportunity.
> 
> ...


I unfortunately missed the general season application period. Really embarassing! I'm not missing the anterless 



PBH said:


> Once the snow flies, those roads won't be accessible, unless you have a snowmachine. They will keep the paved road (John's Valley road) between Antimony and Bryce Canyon open, but the elk are traditionally higher up on the mountain. The Deer Creek road is a good area, but if there is snow you won't be able to drive it.


Thanks for the info! Maybe I'll get them to go there once they've got backcountry skis. It's still on my list of possibles for myself.

I've got it narrowed down to the 5 choices. The youth draw odds really helped make that decision and I have much more confidence in being able to get into elk without killing the children or making them hate it.


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## Ray (May 10, 2018)

OriginalOscar said:


> Ray said:
> 
> 
> > Did this hunt in January, *let's just say my legs got me in further than my truck*. Was able to get into the elk and make it a successful hunt but I won't be putting in for it again. Unless I get a sled, which isn't likely.
> ...


.

Thank you sir! &#128591;


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

rtockstein said:


> I unfortunately missed the general season application period. Really embarassing! I'm not missing the anterless


Youth archery deer tags are OTC.

Spike elk tags are OTC.

Left over muzzy deer tags are OTC.

Lots of opportunities out there


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

MooseMeat said:


> rtockstein said:
> 
> 
> > I unfortunately missed the general season application period. Really embarassing! I'm not missing the anterless
> ...


They can't yet pull back enough draw weight for me to be comfortable with them shooting at a deer &#128542; next year though!! We just went to the range yesterday. They haven't shot their bow for a bit, so we increased the draw length and weight and they were putting them in a 6" circle at 20 yards pretty easily, and that was with it still being slightly too short! &#128578; I'm excited for them. They seemed to enjoy it a lot more since they're able to hold the bow up easier and shot a bit better than before

We may get them the bull elk otc tag, but I think they've got a high chance of drawing a good EA tag that is a long season.

I don't have one, but I'm thinking I may need a muzzleloader. Seems like there's a lot of opportunity for decent units for those hunts.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

If you are looking for OTC, cheap & easy anterless hunts for kids then look out of state. A little research and you can have some super easy great hunts for kids every single year and the tags are so cheap! Within a days drive of SLC you could be hunting multiple anterless species. Gas is cheap and you can camp out if you are on a budget. So many states out there offer a ton of great opportunities for youth, even for nonresidents:

Wyoming youth nonresident Antelope & Deer is $19
Nebraska youth nonresident Deer is $8
South Dakota youth nonresident Deer is $10
I have hunted in these three states above and a kid would have a ball and be able to fill the tag easy. Plus a kid knocking on a door to get land access permission to kill a doe is pretty much guaranteed

Idaho is another one to look at and this is the last year where their youth is really cheap although I think the adult must have a similar tag in order to get the cheap youth tags but don't quote me on that one. 

Just gotta think outside the Utah box and the opportunity is there


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Airborne said:


> Just gotta think outside the Wasatch Front box and the opportunity is there


*snicker*


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Airborne said:


> If you are looking for OTC, cheap & easy anterless hunts for kids then look out of state. A little research and you can have some super easy great hunts for kids every single year and the tags are so cheap! Within a days drive of SLC you could be hunting multiple anterless species. Gas is cheap and you can camp out if you are on a budget. So many states out there offer a ton of great opportunities for youth, even for nonresidents:
> 
> Wyoming youth nonresident Antelope & Deer is $19
> Nebraska youth nonresident Deer is $8
> ...


+100%! Well said Airborne.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Airborne said:


> If you are looking for OTC, cheap & easy anterless hunts for kids then look out of state. A little research and you can have some super easy great hunts for kids every single year and the tags are so cheap! Within a days drive of SLC you could be hunting multiple anterless species. Gas is cheap and you can camp out if you are on a budget. So many states out there offer a ton of great opportunities for youth, even for nonresidents:
> 
> Wyoming youth nonresident Antelope & Deer is $19
> Nebraska youth nonresident Deer is $8
> ...


I would certainly like to do that at some point! Sticking close to home is more of a time thing in combination with knowing the terrain. I tried advocating for a few of the kid friendly units in Utah that were 3 or more hours from home and have high success rates, but my wife said we should go with ones closer to home where I know the terrain and know where to find the elk. She's much smarter than I am!

I have a question on the CWMUs. There are 2 or 3 that I'm thinking I'll put the kids in for. High success rate and they'll likely draw a tag with 0 points. They don't list season dates and it says to contact the operator for information. We only have the kids about 50% of the time, as their with their dad the other part of the time, so it makes it harder to pick which hunts to apply them for.

In everyone's experience, how are the CWMU dates done? Are they set by the operator and do they have flexibility? Are the operators easy to get ahold of? Do the operators usually (or ever) give the permit holders info on where to find the elk if they're not allowing scouting prior to the season dates?


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

rtockstein said:


> I would certainly like to do that at some point! Sticking close to home is more of a time thing in combination with knowing the terrain. I tried advocating for a few of the kid friendly units in Utah that were 3 or more hours from home and have high success rates, but my wife said we should go with ones closer to home where I know the terrain and know where to find the elk. She's much smarter than I am!
> 
> I have a question on the CWMUs. There are 2 or 3 that I'm thinking I'll put the kids in for. High success rate and they'll likely draw a tag with 0 points. They don't list season dates and it says to contact the operator for information. We only have the kids about 50% of the time, as their with their dad the other part of the time, so it makes it harder to pick which hunts to apply them for.
> 
> In everyone's experience, how are the CWMU dates done? Are they set by the operator and do they have flexibility? Are the operators easy to get ahold of? Do the operators usually (or ever) give the permit holders info on where to find the elk if they're not allowing scouting prior to the season dates?


Good questions. Dates are set by the state and the operator has to allow the hunter on the property for five days during the season, I believe five days in the requirement . . . In my experience of hunting CWMUs, the operators are more than willing to help out with flexible dates, operators have been easy to get a hold of, and have been very helpful on where to start looking. These CWMUs are a pretty neat way to help the public hunter and the private land owner. It behooves the operators to be helpful.

With that being said, people should be realistic about their expectations of what the operator should and should not do. Here is a link to the information about CWMUs from the DNR's webpage: https://wildlife.utah.gov/cwmu.html

Just don't be the guy who draws the tag, waits and waits for the operator to contact him, finally gets a hold of the operator the week before hunt starts, and then complains about the CWMU!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

My experience is you can reach out to the operator now and they’ll likely respond with the dates and information about the hunts. You can prime them now about the schedule with the kids and ask how accommodating they could be to that. Some will, others won’t. But at least you’ll know. 

Now is a good time to start prepping their dad too. “If they draw, will you work with us on parent time? Can we switch some days to accommodate the hunt dates?” Again, some will, others won’t. 

I think most CWMUs want hunters to have a good experience. There are some bad apples, but I think those in the program largely want good experiences. You have to be realistic though. CWMU doesn’t guarantee big animals, lots of animals, or easy hunting. 

Communicate with operators. Their contact info is available for a reason. I can’t emphasize that enough. Contact them now if you have questions.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

CPAjeff said:


> Good questions. Dates are set by the state and the operator has to allow the hunter on the property for five days during the season, I believe five days in the requirement . . . In my experience of hunting CWMUs, the operators are more than willing to help out with flexible dates, operators have been easy to get a hold of, and have been very helpful on where to start looking. These CWMUs are a pretty neat way to help the public hunter and the private land owner. It behooves the operators to be helpful.
> 
> With that being said, people should be realistic about their expectations of what the operator should and should not do. Here is a link to the information about CWMUs from the DNR's webpage: https://wildlife.utah.gov/cwmu.html
> 
> Just don't be the guy who draws the tag, waits and waits for the operator to contact him, finally gets a hold of the operator the week before hunt starts, and then complains about the CWMU!


I think antlerless tags are only 3 days guaranteed access, but I have yet to meet a cwmu operator that won't let a kid come back for another try if they aren't successful the first time


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> I think antlerless tags are only 3 days guaranteed access, but I have yet to meet a cwmu operator that won't let a kid come back for another try if they aren't successful the first time


You're correct - per R657-37(3)(a)(i-ii) buck, bulls, and turkey hunters get five days. Anterless hunters get three days.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

Thanks!!! I was planning to contact them very early on if the kids draw and also thought about attempting to contact them today before applying. I certainly don't expect them to do anything other than allow access, but any additional help they provide is a huge bonus.

Thank you everyone for the help on this. Without it, I may have had them trekking several miles through knee deep snow


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