# Dead hold reticles



## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

So what are your opinions on these dead hold or range corrected reticles? I'm not talking about adjustable turrets though, that's a whole other ball game.
Are they worth the money or just a marketing gimick?

The reason I ask is my son got a new rifle/scope combo but the scope is very poor. I told him I would pay half if he wanted to upgrade it. He wants one with the multiple aim points. He is a new hunter (12yr old) so I can kind of see the benefit of saying just use the second line and aim where you want, VS aim a litte higher than you want or hold just under the spine. The only experience I have with that kind of scope is a Cabela's scope with the EXT reticle. It's on a .243 and the yardage marks don't match up like the paper says. I have not shot it enough to find out where each line is really going to hit.

If you were getting a new scope for your first time hunter which way would you go?

Thanks.


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

I really like them, but it might be a tad overwhelming for a kid.......

Keep in mind that these only work as advertised when set on a given power (usually max power).
And you really need to practice with them, dont trust that the manufacture says the third stadia will be dead on at 400 yards...... only you with practice can determine that.

I typically will zero the rifle/scope at 100 yards.... then shoot at 200, 300 and 400 and develop some drop data, having a chronograph helps alot. On my 325wsm with a leupold b&c reticle I am within 1" of the stadias as leupold has advertised...... pretty neat stuff, and alot simpler than "dialing up". But if i am not on 14X it means absolutely nothing!!! When I had this same scope on a 25-06, I had to take it down to about 11X for the stadia lines to work - - - and that just wasn't worth it IMO ( i like to keep a 100 yard zero)........

anyways, they work if you learn them. I fear that an inexperienced hunter would feel that he can now make a 500 yard shot on a big game animal just because he has a new cool scope........ I think I'd stick with the standard 3-9x for the youngen.

The Vortex "dead hold" system might work well for you. It simply consists of dots that would be easy to ignore until the time is right to learn how they work.....


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

Thanks Chet, I had no idea those lines are only correct on high power. That is probably why it didn't work out on my .243 It's a 4x12 and I was only shooting it at about 8 or 9 power. I'll have to give it a shot on high and see if that corrects the issue.

I agree that if it only works on certain instances, that could be very overwhelming!

He is shooting a 7mm-08 and so I figured a good effective range is 300 yards for that gun on elk. If I sight it in a 200, then there really won't be much of a holdover at 300. I will only let him take a 300 yard shot if he can show me he can make that shot consitently at the range. He's not bad at 200 so with a little more practice...... we'll see.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Elhoholic8, You are doing it just right. The maximum point blank range of a 7-08 is about 300 yards. At 200 yards you should be a little high.
I would advise a good quality scope with a standard reticle. Just shoot at the middle and it's a dead animal. 
I have two guns with scopes that have multiple reticles or dots. For target shooting they are kind of fun just because you can put the bullet in the bulls eye more often. But for hunting I don't think there is any value added.
You mention hold over, every time I have held over an animal I shot over it.
Here is a link with some info on maximum point blank range. I'm not really a Chuck Hawks fan but he does publish some good info.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_trajectory_table.htm
Cooky


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm a "dial-up" fan. But a lot of preparation goes into using this method proficiantly. The next best is using a scope with multiple stadia lines or mil-dots. I have a Zeiss 4.5x 14 with a Z-800 reticle on my .257 Weatherby. None of me lines match my trajectory even at the highest power. So I went out and verified my drops and made a card that's either taped to my stock or in my pocket. Here's how mine looks:
Bar 2 - Hold on
Bar 3 - 333 yards
Bar 4 - 462 yards
Bar 5 - 585 yards
Bar 6 - 707 yards
Bar 7 - 828 yards
Bar 8 - 946 yards

These are the yardages that match my stadia lines. It would be nice if they matched exactly but it is what it is.
I also have a Swarovski on a 300 Win Mag. I looked in the manual and with 150 grain at 3255fps it says to set my scope at 11 power and the lines should match up. They are ****-near right on too.
I'm a rabid defender of longrange shooting but (I always include this while talking longrange) if you are not proficiant, practiced and well-versed in shooting long distance Don't do it! As always, knowing your point-blank range and shooting inside that is the best for 90% af all shooters.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

The information presented represents more time and effort learning about, loading for, and practicing with a gun than most folks will spend in a lifetime of big game hunting. If the 12 year old chooses to get there some day that’s great. For now I think learning to plant his butt and hold in the middle will lead to the most hunting success. It appears the others agree. No dots, no lines and a forgiving eye relief will be best for now.


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## timberbuck (May 19, 2010)

Sounds like there is a little confusion here of how the reticle systems work.

With the zeiss Z reticle system you plug your exact caliber and pick the exact factory load with the exact bullet and bullet weight you are going to shoot. It then asks which exact scope of theirs you are running. You also plug in what elevation you will be sighting it in for. The program figures your drops and tells you where to set the power to calibrate the reticle to your gun/load.

For example on my 7 rem mag shooting a factory winchester load with a 160 xp3 bullet I have the gun sighted dead on a 200 yards with the center reticle. I can run the power setting anywhere I want and use the center crosshair as normal. If I want to use the 300-800 yard reticles I must set the power at 12x for 6000 feet elevation and 12.5x for 9000 feet elevation. My scope is the 4.5x14x44 conquest. With the zeiss system the power setting will vary depending on your load and the magnification of the scope. I have an accurate gun that likes the load I am shooting (easily sub moa out to 800 yards). My 300-800 yard reticles are within 5 yards of the exact distance. 

The nikon BDC system is different, you sight in at 100 or 200 on the center reticle and enter your exact load and bullet, but on thier program you can vary the magnification setting and see how it changes where the lower circles hit. Once you decide on where you want the magnification setting you can print a card saying where the circles are dead on and tape it to your stock.

The burris ballistic plex just comes with reference cards, you match your bullet and caliber as best as you can, set the power where they tell you to, then go shoot each reticle and see how close it is.

These reticle systems are not of any use if you are only going to shoot out to 300 yards or so with standard calibers or the smaller magnum rounds or if you are only going to shoot out to say 400 yards with something real flat shooting.

And yes you must shoot and verify each reticle and have an accurate rifle to put these systems to use.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

timberbuck said:


> Sounds like there is a little confusion here of how the reticle systems work.
> 
> With the zeiss Z reticle system you plug your exact caliber and pick the exact factory load with the exact bullet and bullet weight you are going to shoot. It then asks which exact scope of theirs you are running. You also plug in what elevation you will be sighting it in for. The program figures your drops and tells you where to set the power to calibrate the reticle to your gun/load.


No confusion, it's just that my .257 shoots too flat. I shoot a 100grTSX with a .421 BC at 3725 fps. Even with the Zeiss being a second focal plane scope, I still can't scrunch the stadia lines close enough together to closely match my trajectory. Plug those numbers in and you'll see what I mean.

I can't say on the Nikons because I've never used the BDC reticle.
The Burris reticle sounds a lot like the Swarovski system and it works pretty good.


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

IMHO, adjusting the power ring to fit your ballistics is not an option. I simply feel that you cannot put it in the same place every time. Cranking it all the way til it stops is the only way I can assure that I know exactly where the stadia lines are. At that point I can adjust POI @ 100 yards to try and make the stadia lines useful.
It takes hours and hours to set it up correctly. And without a rangefinder, it don't mean squat.
Leupold makes the "varmint" reticle that fits the flatter shooting cartridges better.


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## Springville Shooter (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm on the consensus bandwagon. I've been through thousands of rounds through a dozen or so barrels "qualifying" myself to use holdover/dial-up systems to shoot long range. My daughter shoots a 308 with a duplex reticle period. Simply stated, she must walk before she runs, and even though my experience will help her as she progresses as a shooter, it can't replace learning the fundamentals. My advise on long range shooting is to NEVER attempt to shortcut the process whether it be equipment or experience. Get the youngster a good accurate rifle with a consistent clear scope and teach him the fundamentals.----SS


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> My advise on long range shooting is to NEVER attempt to shortcut the process whether it be equipment or experience.


+1

Despite what industry marketers would have us believe, technology is no substitute for skills.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Springville Shooter said:


> I'm on the consensus bandwagon. I've been through thousands of rounds through a dozen or so barrels "qualifying" myself to use holdover/dial-up systems to shoot long range. My daughter shoots a 308 with a duplex reticle period. Simply stated, she must walk before she runs, and even though my experience will help her as she progresses as a shooter, it can't replace learning the fundamentals. My advise on long range shooting is to NEVER attempt to shortcut the process whether it be equipment or experience. Get the youngster a good accurate rifle with a consistent clear scope and teach him the fundamentals.----SS


+1 again! 
When the kid can shoot MOA consistently then maybe he could use a fancy scope, but even then, I am not completely sold on a wild A** scopes for general hunting. Get him a nice Leopold or other quality brand 3-9 with the most simple reticle they make. I even think the Dup-plex can lead to problems...the shooter tends to just center the game in the larger cross hairs rather than actually putting the cross hairs where he wants to hit. If you at some point take up the very specialized long range hunting/shooting like Longbow and others on this forum, then yeah, go get the specialized scope.


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## Elkoholic8 (Jan 15, 2008)

After reading your suggestions, I think I am going to start on square one and just get a simple single crosshair scope. All those other types sound good, but I think they are going to be too confusing to worry about right now. 
Heck I don't even know if I want one anymore. 

Thanks for the advise.


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## Stickboy (Oct 28, 2010)

I am with SS. 

The reticle/stadia lines will aid in elevation, a wind call on the other hand.....a bit more application of skill.

-c


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## chet (Sep 7, 2007)

It's also wise to start a kid off with a fixed power scope..... a good ole' 4X32 will do the trick every time!


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