# Bill of sale for firearms transactions



## Greenhead_Slayer (Oct 16, 2007)

From what I understand, there is not a legal requirement to provide a bill of sale when purchasing a firearm, correct? I'm curious as to what the general consensus is on the forum to who tries to avoid having to sign a bill or have any firearms registered to them? I don't like the idea of having my name in a gun owners registry, but I do have my CFP so I'm guessing that kind of contradicts itself. Just kind of curious what everyone else's thoughts are on this.

If someone had a CFP that was valid and purchased a firearm from say KSL, is the bill of sale really necessary from the seller? Is the logic behind that if a crime was committed with that firearm then the previous owner could be held liable?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

When I sell, I make them sign a bill of sale *I* keep (they get a copy I sign for their records if they want). I want to prove I no longer own the firearm if its ever used in a crime later on. I state right up front my requirement to sell. Its a liability thing rather than any formal requirement from the state.


-DallanC


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

+1 to what Dallan said.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

if you are worried about selling a firearm to some else then do not do it, plain and simple. i have sold and bought several firearms over the years and have only signed one sales receipt to make the seller happy. I just sell to people if i feel comfortable with them. what they do with the firearm down the road is out of my hands, if they go postal after a year from buying a firearm from me, how am i supposed to know this?

when buying a used firearm how you supposed to know how many times it has been sold?


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

You don't know what will happen to the firearm when you sell it. And if it can be traced to you and somehow 3-4 purchases later ends up in the hands of a felon who uses it to commit a crime, you'll want the evidence that you didn't sell it to him. And yes, gun sellers have had legal action taken against them when a gun they sold ended up in the hands of a criminal. 

I do like your perspective sagebrush - if you aren't comfortable, don't sell it. But the guy you are comfortable selling it, can trade it to his brother in law, who sells it to the guy up the street, who's son steals it from the gun cabinet and trades it for a bag of weed to a drug dealer.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If you are uncomfortable with just selling the firearm just go through a FFL holder and let the buyer do the paper work. It cost a little but if it gives you peace of mind then it is worth it.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm more worried that a gun I've sold gets stolen from someone I sold it to, then gets used in a crime. Having someone sign a bill of sale is pretty easy and a simple way to offer protection. Selling to someone you dont know? FFL transfer would be the safest way to go.


-DallanC


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

gary fish can you name a case against one individual that was prosecuted for selling a firearm?
if this was the case then all gun dealers would be held liable for selling every gun they sell. used firearms have changed many hands no need to tie it yourself in anyway.


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

I am with everybody else, I do it for my records.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

sagebrush said:


> if this was the case then all gun dealers would be held liable for selling every gun they sell. used firearms have changed many hands no need to tie it yourself in anyway.


Yup.



> SALT LAKE CITY: The Utah Supreme Court has sided with a trial judge in ruling that a woman whose daughter was killed in the 2007 Trolley Square shooting can sue the pawn shop that sold the gun to the shooter, Sulejman Talovic.
> 
> In an order issued June 16 and released Monday, Associate Chief Justice Matthew Durrant denies a petition to appeal filed by the pawn shop, Rocky Mountain Enterprises or Sportsman's Fast Cash, and employee Westley Hill.


-DallanC


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

Suing is different than criminal prosecution
Also we are talking about an individual not a store


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

Either way though. If I sell a gun as an individual, I will get a bill of sale. For my own protection against any kind of criminal or civil issues.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

Your bill of sale still will not stop you from getting sued.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

Look at like this no bill of sale is no proof that you sold it to the perp. Kind of hard to get sued on hearsay.


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## Greenhead_Slayer (Oct 16, 2007)

sagebrush said:


> Look at like this no bill of sale is no proof that you sold it to the prep. Kind of hard to get sued on hearsay.


I like that thought process.

I'm thinking along the lines of me purchasing a firearm, not selling one. Pretty much I don't want to sign a bill of sale that says I am in ownership of said firearm. So far none of the guns I have bought are registered to me, and I like that. (Granted all of them have been purchased from very close family members that haven't committed crimes with them.)

Heaven forbid the time actually came that the government starting rounding weapons up, but that thought always seems to linger in the back of mind. If for some reason a semi-auto ban got passed and we all had our semi-auto hunting shotguns and rifles made illegal and they were registered to us I don't think that'd be a good situation.

It just seems like leaving that much of a paper trail for all your transactions could lead to more hassle than good. In my eyes if someone was selling me a gun ideally I would just show them my CFP and that would suffice. Maybe I'm stupid for thinking this way, but if I was selling a gun and someone had a valid CFP I'd sell it to them without requiring the paperwork.


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

How 'bout looking at it from a different point of view:

Bad Guy robs a convenience store, shoots the clerk with a handgun he stole from a friend, and ditches the handgun while running away.
Police recover the handgun, contact the original seller, and start trying to follow its past.
Eventually, they come to YOU. Your response of "I sold it to some dude, like three years ago" may not get you in trouble, but it doesn't really help track down the d-bag that shot the clerk.

On the other hand, keeping a Bill of Sale, or some record of the buyer's information, may prove to be more than enough for the police to get a good lead in the case.


Me?
I tell every potential buyer that I will need a photo of their driver's license (taken by me); or their full name, a home address, a phone number, and a signature on a Bill of Sale. If they want it, they can have a copy of everything, as well.

To date, I've only encountered one person that refused. He got very sketchy and nervous, so I told him to get lost.

No firearm comes into, or leaves my house, without a record.


Worrying about a paper trail leading to you in the event of mass firearm confiscations or mandatory registration is a waste of time. Even if it were to happen, it wouldn't go down the way you expect.


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## Greenhead_Slayer (Oct 16, 2007)

Squigie said:


> Me?
> I tell every potential buyer that I will need a photo of their driver's license (taken by me); or their full name, a home address, a phone number, and a signature on a Bill of Sale. If they want it, they can have a copy of everything, as well.
> 
> 
> > Different strokes for different folks, but no way would I provide a random stranger with a copy of my drivers license. I understand you wanting to cover your bases but that seems way to extreme to me.


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## sagebrush (Sep 8, 2007)

Greenhead_Slayer said:


> Squigie said:
> 
> 
> > Me?
> ...


+1


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

It is always a good idea to write up a bill of sale or contract on any private business transaction regardless of whether it is a firearm or not. 99% of the time there will never be a problem, but for that other 1%, you are going to want to have your butt covered.

...and btw, someone a demanding a photo copy of my DL as a condition for a sale would be a deal breaker for me......as others have mentioned, that opens a whole new can of worms.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I met far too many identity thieves when I worked as a prison guard to ever give someone a copy of my driver's license. No way would I go down that road. I do, however, require a bill of sale whether I am purchasing or selling. It protects me both ways. I don't want to buy a gun that has been used in a crime any more than I want to sell a gun that will be used in a crime.


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## Squigie (Aug 4, 2012)

Greenhead_Slayer said:


> Different strokes for different folks, but no way would I provide a random stranger with a copy of my drivers license. I understand you wanting to cover your bases but that seems way to extreme to me.


I can pull up more information than is listed on some one's drivers license, with just a quick internet search on their name and state. Additional information like their home address, or phone number, is even better... but not necessary.

At any rate.... I only sell to people that aren't worried about it. And, it keeps the tin foil hat crown from bothering me with stupidly low offers.
"Hey, you have a Colt Trooper .38 listed for $375. Will you take $103 and coupon for a dozen donuts?" :roll:


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## Greenhead_Slayer (Oct 16, 2007)

Squigie said:


> Greenhead_Slayer said:
> 
> 
> > Different strokes for different folks, but no way would I provide a random stranger with a copy of my drivers license. I understand you wanting to cover your bases but that seems way to extreme to me.
> ...


 :lol:


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