# Tune In Right Now!



## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

http://www.1320kfan.com/

Tony Abbot has Doyle Moss and Adam Eackle on talking about why Mossback won't guide the Governor's tag for elk because the quality is so POOR. He already said that unless the governor tag holder can't be ENSURED of a 400-420 bull it isn't right to even sell the tag. Listen in, and see what is driving the current management 'logic'!


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2011)

in a way doyle has a point. no one wants to spend ungodly amounts of money to kill a 360 bull. i dont support SFW and the pimping of tags, but its doyles decision not to guide that tag holder. ive said it before and i'll say it again, WHO CARES!?! geez, live your own life and worry about your own problems......


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I care! Why? Because the Wildlife Board makes policy based on such views! You/I do NOT live in a bubble. If the calls for more big bulls is listened to by those who make policy, it DOES affect you/me! Why don't you understand that? Do you hunt, or want to hunt mature bulls in Utah, do you have kids that you want to be able to hunt mature bulls in Utah? If so, then YOU better start caring what people with influence say/think!!!!!!


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2011)

i do understand that and i care ALOT. but drawing a big bull tag in utah is extremely hard, even with the poor quality that the elk herds are in now. a "good" tag is a once in a lifetime deal, no matter how you look at it. i MIGHT draw 2 tags in my life time, and im still working on my first! my kids dont stand a chance to ever draw a tag worth while... they are trying to do the same thing with the deer hunting, and from the looks of it, they are off to a great start


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

So, then why are you telling me not to worry about it! You're not making any sense!


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2011)

because no matter how hard you kick and scream, the people with the most money and the biggest names are going to get their way. thats just how the world works. im not saying we shouldnt fight and try to get things fixed, ill be the first one at the front of the line to tell them what i think of them and the way the run things, but i think we all know going into this that it is a losing battle. they are going to do what they want to do wether or not the majority of the average guys agrees with it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

Actually, Doyle is sounding like he agrees with I400! He even advocates NO rifle hunts in the rut.

As for saying only the money folks get heard. Only if people take YOUR stance. There are more of us than them, if we get off our backsides and show up in mass, we can/will, have an impact. Having the defeatist mentality is not for me. I enjoy hunting too much, and I want my kids to enjoy hunting too much to sit back and just take it!


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2011)

like i said, im willing to fight, but its going to be a long hard battle, that we most likely wont see the benefits of. i love to hunt more then anyone i know. if they made all hunting illegal tomorrow, that would not stop me from doing something i am so passionate about. they would have to put me in prison to get me to stop. but we need to pick our battles. some of us fought to stop the progress of option 2, but it wasnt enough. there were sure alot of people who didnt support it, but only a few actually did anything. why would the elk hunting situation be any different? like you said, if we ALL did something about it, we would have an impact. but if only a FEW of us do something, we wont be heard. i dont know about you, but im sure pigs will fly before EVERYONE gets on the same page and is willing to do what needs to be done.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

kill_'em_all said:


> i do understand that and i care ALOT. but drawing a big bull tag in utah is extremely hard, even with the poor quality that the elk herds are in now. a "good" tag is a once in a lifetime deal, no matter how you look at it. i MIGHT draw 2 tags in my life time, and im still working on my first! my kids dont stand a chance to ever draw a tag worth while... they are trying to do the same thing with the deer hunting, and from the looks of it, they are off to a great start


what is wrong with the elk herds now.how are you calling them poor quality?i went on two limited entry hunts with the family.and all i can say is they were both a blast elk evrywhere and big bulls to be had.i could give a sh## less if they were 400 '' bulls there were plenty of 340 360 bulls to be had.and an ungodley amount of 320,330 bulls overall during last years hunts i probably seen 100 plus bulls.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

i did not get a chance to listen to the show.but i hope adam eakle is not siding with doyle on this matter.i will boycott that show if so.who gives a crap about a 400" bull i will take a 340-380 anyday what a crybaby doyle


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I had bad reception in my car but is it true that the SFW can't account for any of the money they are suppose to give back and contribute to the wildlife?? they are suppose to contribute a "significant" amount of money from the sportsman tags but they haven't opened their books and said how much???? not sure if I heard that right so correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2011)

hazmat said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > i do understand that and i care ALOT. but drawing a big bull tag in utah is extremely hard, even with the poor quality that the elk herds are in now. a "good" tag is a once in a lifetime deal, no matter how you look at it. i MIGHT draw 2 tags in my life time, and im still working on my first! my kids dont stand a chance to ever draw a tag worth while... they are trying to do the same thing with the deer hunting, and from the looks of it, they are off to a great start
> ...


i never said ALL the elk units are poor quality, but quite a few units that use to be THE unit to draw are now some of the easiest to draw tags in. theres no way they can pull "X" amount of bulls off the unit during the LE hunts, then pull an additional 100-200 cows off the unit in the winter and still have a strong quality herd. plus you have to factor in the cows and spikes shot on the unit during the general hunts. they are killing way too many elk off a majority of the units. theres still some nice bulls running around in the hills, but not as many as there has been or should be. utah has the potential to grow big animals in large numbers. since the muledeer are almost extinct, i think we should try to fill all that empty space with other animals who can use it. theres no need to kill that many elk every year.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I had bad reception in my car but is it true that the SFW can't account for any of the money they are suppose to give back and contribute to the wildlife?? they are suppose to contribute a "significant" amount of money from the sportsman tags but they haven't opened their books and said how much???? not sure if I heard that right so correct me if I'm wrong.


You're right. Tony said that in the last 5 years then SFW cannot account for $1 being spent on wildlife. So where is the money going? SFW was also suppose to provide the draw odds every year for each unit, but they lump them all together. SFW uses makes $1,000,000 at each expo so where has the $5,000,000 dollars gone?

It sounds like we need some serious legal action to take place.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> i never said ALL the elk units are poor quality, but quite a few units that use to be THE unit to draw are now some of the easiest to draw tags in. theres no way they can pull "X" amount of bulls off the unit during the LE hunts, then pull an additional 100-200 cows off the unit in the winter and still have a strong quality herd. plus you have to factor in the cows and spikes shot on the unit during the general hunts. they are killing way too many elk off a majority of the units. theres still some nice bulls running around in the hills, but not as many as there has been or should be. utah has the potential to grow big animals in large numbers. since the muledeer are almost extinct, i think we should try to fill all that empty space with other animals who can use it. theres no need to kill that many elk every year.


How much easier should we make our LE units/elk farms be? There is plenty of bulls on the mountain. The bull numbers aren't going downhill. We actually need to issue more tags.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

well if the SFW can't let us know where the money has gone and how much, than that needs to be addressed ASAP!! tony talked about how the term "significant" is open for debate.... but to me if they are making a million dollars off the expo tags, they should be putting back a minimum of 300-400 grand back each year...I believe tony said significant to him is 60%. so I'd be interested to see their books. they are handed a public resource, so it should be made public.


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## SLCMULEY (Mar 14, 2010)

While listening to the WB meeting minutes they go into accounting for the conservation monies. I can't remember exactly but I think the conversation groups have until a certain date each year to bring forth their accounting. By law if the organization does not show such accounting deemed necessary by the WB, they in turn are not eligible for any consevation permits the following year. These organizations get to keep 10% of the money they raise. 
So long story short, if SFW was not in compliance with this then they would not of been in charge of this years expo tags. In the WB meeting minutes there was one organization that was in trouble and it was Ducks Unlimited. 

Jim Karopowitz unleashes a discussion at the meeting saying "he does not like to see these groups hold onto money while there are plenty of projects waiting to be funded".
Now I'm not saying I'm for or against these groups, However I will say these organizations are playing with our states wildlife money. and if anything seems fishy at all let's put a stop to it. 
Can someone tell me why the DWR cannot find a way to raise this money using the same tags?


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

SLCMULEY said:


> While listening to the WB meeting minutes they go into accounting for the conservation monies. I can't remember exactly but I think the conversation groups have until a certain date each year to bring forth their accounting. By law if the organization does not show such accounting deemed necessary by the WB, they in turn are not eligible for any consevation permits the following year. These organizations get to keep 10% of the money they raise.
> So long story short, if SFW was not in compliance with this then they would not of in charge of this years expo tags. In the WB meeting minutes there was one organization that was in trouble and it was Ducks Unlimited.
> 
> Jim Karopowitz unleashes a discussion at the meeting saying "he does not like to see these groups hold onto money while there are plenty of projects waiting to be funded".
> ...


You are mixing up "Conservation Tags" with "Convention/Expo Tags". Convention tags don't have the same stipulations as Conservation tags, that is how they are getting away with it.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I think people are confusing conservation permits with convention permits. SFW has to, in order to get approved for conservation permits, account for where every penny (minus the 10% they get to pocket) is spent. Convention permits are in a whole other realm. The groups, in the very beginning, promised to account for where/when/how the funds from the convention permits is/was used. After five years, NO account for ANY of the funds from these tags as been given. I am told that the two groups (SFW/MDF) get close to a MILLION dollars each year from these permits. If they are using these funds for wildlife projects, why are they keeping it secret? These are groups that LOVE to brag about their 'good deeds'. 

Someone asked of Adam Eackle was in agreement with Doyle on the governor's tag holder being entitled to a 400+ bull. Most definitely NOT! I hope this episode is available shortly on podcast or something so people who missed it can listen to it. I found it insightful, informative, and I think all three (Tony, Adam, and Doyle) seem to be open to a I400 type management for elk.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm a little confused as to why the SFW is still getting these expo tags if they haven't been able to account for the money they are suppose to donate back into wildife??? seems like they need to disclose the info, or have these expo tags taken away and done through a different system or put back into the regular draw system.


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2011)

coyoteslayer said:


> How much easier should we make our LE units/elk farms be? There is plenty of bulls on the mountain. The bull numbers aren't going downhill. We actually need to issue more tags.


 why? so we can have more crowding in the mountains on a LE hunt and kill every bull left in the hills? :roll: you need to get out more... if we issued any more tags, we would have the same issue that we do with the deer.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

utahgolf said:


> I'm a little confused as to why the SFW is still getting these expo tags if they haven't been able to account for the money they are suppose to donate back into wildife??? seems like they need to disclose the info, or have these expo tags taken away and done through a different system or put back into the regular draw system.


Sounds like reasonable conclusions to me! :O•-: :idea:


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

kill_'em_all said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > How much easier should we make our LE units/elk farms be? There is plenty of bulls on the mountain. The bull numbers aren't going downhill. We actually need to issue more tags.
> ...


+1. I have a hard time listening to Tony the rat. Considering he got kicked out of the SFW circle of trust 6 years ago. According to Tony it was wrong to take peoples money after he was out. But then came back with the Mule Deer Foundation to take money again. How much info is to be beleived from this human. He is still very bitter towards SFW since DON wouldn't split 50/50 with em.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > How much easier should we make our LE units/elk farms be? There is plenty of bulls on the mountain. The bull numbers aren't going downhill. We actually need to issue more tags.
> ...


Utter nonsense! What do you mean by "more crowding"? I have been on the mountain every fall on LE units for the last 12 years, and I have yet to experience anything close to "crowding". The closest I have seen was during the archery seasons, which get 25% of the LE permits, which proves the crowding was NOT due to the number of LE permits, but from deer hunters and MOSTLY from recreational folks enjoying the outdoors. I am also curious what LE units you think would be at risk of having every bull killed on it if more permits were issued? Can you point to a LE unit that has lower than a 30:100 bull:cow ratio right now? Good hell, even the any-bull units are nowhere near having "every bull killed" on them, so why the hyperbole?

The truth is, we have EXCESS bulls on the LE units, the units are forced to carry excess bulls in order to reach the INANE harvest age objectives. While, I suppose, the case could be made that the caliber of bulls is down a bit from a few years ago, I don't see how anyone can be taken serious that suggests there are too few bulls in the herd(s).


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

pheaz said:


> +1. I have a hard time listening to Tony the rat. Considering he got kicked out of the SFW circle of trust 6 years ago. According to Tony it was wrong to take peoples money after he was out. But then came back with the Mule Deer Foundation to take money again. How much info is to be beleived from this human. He is still very bitter towards SFW since DON wouldn't split 50/50 with em.


I would like to know your source that gave you the impression Tony was "kicked out of the SFW circle"? From MANY talks with Tony, he didn't see the error of his ways until a few years ago. What you imply is based on what? If you are going to attack a REAL person on the internet, I suggest you KNOW your facts and stick to verified truths.

I was, like Tony, a big supporter of conservation permits. I defended the CPP on here more than anyone. But, once I starting educating myself to the true costs of this pile of stink, and once I saw firsthand the vile underbelly of the CPP beast, I have switched 180 degrees and I am a huge advocate of getting rid of the CPP altogether.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > How much easier should we make our LE units/elk farms be? There is plenty of bulls on the mountain. The bull numbers aren't going downhill. We actually need to issue more tags.
> ...


Can you please point out one unit that is overcrowded with LE elk hunters? The statement that....."I need to get out more is very comical." :lol: :lol: :roll:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> +1. I have a hard time listening to Tony the rat. Considering he got kicked out of the SFW circle of trust 6 years ago. According to Tony it was wrong to take peoples money after he was out. But then came back with the Mule Deer Foundation to take money again. How much info is to be beleived from this human. He is still very bitter towards SFW since DON wouldn't split 50/50 with em.pheaz


I will take Tony's own words over yours any day. You don't have a very good track record on this site. You talked about a little elk slaughter and when asked to produce a few pictures then you were told by big brother in black suits to shut up or else they were going to suck out your brains.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

kill_'em_all said:


> hazmat said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="kill_'em_all":2gk6s0ny]i do understand that and i care ALOT. but drawing a big bull tag in utah is extremely hard, even with the poor quality that the elk herds are in now. a "good" tag is a once in a lifetime deal, no matter how you look at it. i MIGHT draw 2 tags in my life time, and im still working on my first! my kids dont stand a chance to ever draw a tag worth while... they are trying to do the same thing with the deer hunting, and from the looks of it, they are off to a great start
> ...


i never said ALL the elk units are poor quality, but quite a few units that use to be THE unit to draw are now some of the easiest to draw tags in. theres no way they can pull "X" amount of bulls off the unit during the LE hunts, then pull an additional 100-200 cows off the unit in the winter and still have a strong quality herd. plus you have to factor in the cows and spikes shot on the unit during the general hunts. they are killing way too many elk off a majority of the units. theres still some nice bulls running around in the hills, but not as many as there has been or should be. utah has the potential to grow big animals in large numbers. since the muledeer are almost extinct, i think we should try to fill all that empty space with other animals who can use it. theres no need to kill that many elk every year.[/quote:2gk6s0ny]
i do not like the idea of messing with our elk herds because a few cry babies cannot produce 400 inch bulls for there clients to swell up their pocket books.lets mess with and complain about the elk numbers like we did the deer. and i guaranteee the same thing happens. if it is not broke dont fix it. utah elk hunting is a great experiance for anyone right now. more than enough mature bulls in the hills people maybe need to just look harder

i


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2011)

coyoteslayer said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > coyoteslayer said:
> ...


most popular LE elk units are over run with hunters! in the last 4 years the quality of the elk herds on most units have gone through the floor due to poor management. its clear you dont get out enough to realize that there is a significant problem with the LE hunts. they shoot the hell out of them and because of that, some units that had awesome potential suck major horse ****. the one unit i have noticed a HUGE difference on is the nebo. its in my back yard. i spend countless days up there every summer and fall scouting and hunting elk and deer. its sad to see what has been done to it in the last 4 years. there no way in hell they dont have an impact on elk herds when they are handing out tags left and right. last year the gave 125 big bull tags up there, 111 cow permits and who knows how many general season hunters were up there and land owner tag hunters. thats a total of ATLEAST 400 elk hunters up there! WAY too many!! in 2006 there were 76 big bull tags given and 80 cow permits issued. thats when the nebo was at its prime. the fewer tags given, the better quality of the herd and quality of the bull/cow hunting on the hill. each year they give more and more permits. its a big place, not as big as most elk units, but its decent size. theres no need to shoot the elk just because they are there! how can a unit continue to be the same quality year after year when they keep killing more and more elk? 5 years ago cows wintered on evey open area along the mountains from spanish fork to nephi. this year, they were few and far between. they dont need to shoot the elk just because they are there. this isnt the only unit they are doing it to. its happened to alot of them, this is just the one u have been able to witness first hand and see the effects of their "management" systems.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2011)

hazmat said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > hazmat said:
> ...


 i do not like the idea of messing with our elk herds because a few cry babies cannot produce 400 inch bulls for there clients to swell up their pocket books.lets mess with and complain about the elk numbers like we did the deer. and i guaranteee the same thing happens. if it is not broke dont fix it. utah elk hunting is a great experiance for anyone right now. more than enough mature bulls in the hills people maybe need to just look harder

i[/quote:2pv50wgb]
if im going to wait 10+ years to draw a tag, i want a decent chance to harvest a nice bull. hell, anyone can buy a general season elk permit or buy/apply for a cow tag if they want to just go elk hunting! people would be PISSED if they waited 15 years to draw henrys tag and only had an opportunity to kill on average, a 130" class buck.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> most popular LE elk units are over run with hunters! in the last 4 years the quality of the elk herds on most units have gone through the floor due to poor management. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: Yeah we have nothing left but raghorns. :roll: :roll: :roll: Do you actually believe the things you type? its clear you dont get out enough to realize that there is a significant problem with the LE hunts.Im willing to bet that I get out more than you ever do. they shoot the hell out of them and because of that, some units that had awesome potential suck major horse **** the one unit i have noticed a HUGE difference on is the nebo. its in my back yard.The Nebo unit is my backyard also for 33 years. i spend countless days up there every summer and fall scouting and hunting elk and deer.I doubt it because of the things you say. its sad to see what has been done to it in the last 4 years. The Nebo unit isn't lacking on the number of bulls. I think you need to get off the roads more. there no way in hell they dont have an impact on elk herds when they are handing out tags left and right. last year the gave 125 big bull tags up there 72 bulls were killed., 111 cow permits  Cow tags have been reduced and there is still plenty of cows. and who knows how many general season hunters were up there and land owner tag hunters. thats a total of ATLEAST 400 elk hunters up there! WAY too many!! in 2006 there were 76 big bull tags given and 80 cow permits issued. thats when the nebo was at its prime. Because you didn't need a lot of skill or scouting to find a good bull. I would hate for you to actually elk "hunt" the fewer tags given, the better quality of the herd and quality of the bull/cow hunting on the hill. each year they give more and more permits. its a big place, not as big as most elk units, but its decent size. theres no need to shoot the elk just because they are there! how can a unit continue to be the same quality year after year when they keep killing more and more elk? 5 years ago cows wintered on evey open area along the mountains from spanish fork to nephi. this year, they were few and far between.The elk were higher up on the mountain. I know because I had a cow tag. they dont need to shoot the elk just because they are there. this isnt the only unit they are doing it to. its happened to alot of them, this is just the one u have been able to witness first hand and see the effects of their "manag
> 
> The bull to cow ratio on the Nebo unit is 32/100, not to bad to me..


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> if im going to wait 10+ years to draw a tag, i want a decent chance to harvest a nice bull. hell, anyone can buy a general season elk permit or buy/apply for a cow tag if they want to just go elk hunting! people would be **** if they waited 15 years to draw henrys tag and only had an opportunity to kill on average, a 130" class buck.


Sounds like you believe you should "almost" be guaranteed to harvest a huge bull because you spent so much time in the draw pool? Would you like the bull tied up to a tree also to make it easier for you?? Maybe you can go hunt on a elk game farm so that you know 100% for sure that you will kill a bull with a certain score. They might even tranqulize it first just so you can check for sure.

Do you believe in hunting or just killing? Maybe you need to work on some hunting skills (no offense)


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2011)

dog slayer, 
i hunted over 200 days last year. what about you? i get off the roads. i hate road hunters, although i support it 100%. i never said ALL the big bulls are gone, just not near the number there use to be. i hunted cows up there too. we had to hike to the top of the mountain to fill the tag. im not going to argue with you. its very clear that i dont know what im talking about. glad you know the unit so well. maybe you should go talk to doyle about becoming a guide for him! he needs guys like you who know the unit like the back of their hand and know where all the big bulls are at!


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2011)

coyoteslayer said:


> > if im going to wait 10+ years to draw a tag, i want a decent chance to harvest a nice bull. hell, anyone can buy a general season elk permit or buy/apply for a cow tag if they want to just go elk hunting! people would be **** if they waited 15 years to draw henrys tag and only had an opportunity to kill on average, a 130" class buck.
> 
> 
> Sounds like you believe you should "almost" be guaranteed to harvest a huge bull because you spent so much time in the draw pool? Would you like the bull tied up to a tree also to make it easier for you. Many you can go hunt on a elk game farm so that you know 100% for here that you will kill a bull with a certain score. They might even tranqulize it first just so you can check for sure.
> ...


i hunt to kill. ive worked for every animal ive killed. none of them have been handed to me. all i need is a tag for a unit that holds animals. i can take care of the rest. i can "hunt" as much as i want in the general hunts. but when i wait the time and its my turn, i want a legit opportunity at something bigger then a 250 bull. otherwise i'll stick to hunting spikes and open bull units.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

I believe your signature sums it up.



> i do not go HUNTING, that implies failure. i go KILLING.


Yes the elk farm is your best bet. Maybe they will let you shoot Cleatus.

I also doubt that you hunted 200 days here for big game unless your a poacher. Thats more than 6 months straight. We don't have big game hunts for that long in Utah. I scouted and hunted plenty of time last year. I just don't buy your doom and gloom sad story.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Kill_'em is SPOT ON!

And yote is just his usual self,,,,,,,,,,,Who let him back on this forum anyway?


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> i hunt to kill. ive worked for every animal ive killed. none of them have been handed to me. all i need is a tag for a unit that holds animals. i can take care of the rest. i can "hunt" as much as i want in the general hunts. but when i wait the time and its my turn, i want a legit opportunity at something bigger then a 250 bull. otherwise i'll stick to hunting spikes and open bull units


If your only seeing 250 bulls on the Nebo Unit then you certainly aren't looking in the right place. I hunt because I love the experience. I have also taken a lot of really nice animals while enjoying the moment. I don't consider it failure if I didn't kill a buck or bull.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> And yote is just his usual self,,,,,,,,,,,Who let him back on this forum anyway?


I was never gone Goofy but it's nice to see that you didn't take your ball and go home. It's good that you decided to stay.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> dog slayer,
> i hunted over 200 days last year. what about you? i get off the roads. i hate road hunters, although i support it 100%. i never said ALL the big bulls are gone, just not near the number there use to be. i hunted cows up there too. we had to hike to the top of the mountain to fill the tag. im not going to argue with you. its very clear that i dont know what im talking about. glad you know the unit so well. maybe you should go talk to doyle about becoming a guide for him! he needs guys like you who know the unit like the back of their hand and know where all the big bulls are at!


You know, I am wondering how old you are. You don't know me, you don't know coyoteslayer, yet you talk as if you are the 'man' and we are a couple of greenhorns. I highly doubt you want to compare hunting resumes with CS.

Instead of all this nonsense, lets get back to the issues at hand. YOU stated that elk herds are on the verge having all the bulls killed off them. I asked for ONE unit, you gave me the Nebo unit, so lets look at the numbers on that unit. The bull:cow ratio is over 30:100. That tells me the unit has plenty of bulls on it. As for 'quality', do we need every LE unit managed for 400" bulls? Instead of looking at the decline in 'quality', maybe we should see the 2-3 years of monster bulls in the state as a blip instead of what can/should be the norm. In order to have 400" bulls there needs to be a lot of things fall into place. You need enough moisture, you need enough nutrition, you need mild winters so the bulls are in prime shape when they start the new growth, they need to have entered the winter in good shape, among other conditions. I have guided hunters to bulls that surpassed the 400" mark, and I see a 400" bull being a freak of nature, not something we should demand on a regular basis. That Utah 'only' had five 400" bulls killed last year tells me the sate has plenty of quality. How many 400" bulls were killed in the other western states last year? For that matter, pre-2003 how many 400" bulls were killed in Utah per year? Contrary to the modern myth, a 400" bull is a freak of nature, not something we should be managing for. I am guessing fewer than 5% of all bull elk have the genetic makeup to get within 20" of 400".


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

kill_'em_all said:


> coyoteslayer said:
> 
> 
> > > if im going to wait 10+ years to draw a tag, i want a decent chance to harvest a nice bull. hell, anyone can buy a general season elk permit or buy/apply for a cow tag if they want to just go elk hunting! people would be **** if they waited 15 years to draw henrys tag and only had an opportunity to kill on average, a 130" class buck.
> ...


there is plenty of opurtunity to kill more than a 250 bull as is. there were 3 bulls that got taken off the wasatch that scored 400 or better last year.dont buy into doyles crap he is just butthurt his san juan unitdoes not have a 400" bull behind every tree so he can make more money.i personaly passed on two 340-350 bulls last year because i was chasing a 380 bull utah elk hunting is great right now


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2011)

coyoteslayer said:


> I believe your signature sums it up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well im not a poacher. never shot anything out of season. when you add up all the big game hunting, scouting, waterfowl hunting and turkey hunting, yeah i hunted well over 200 days. i get out ALOT. i'd love to hunt an elk farm some day, i have nothing against that!  my signature basically states that i do not fail when i set out to do something. thats how i live my life. when i do something, i dont half ass it! i go at it 110%, the entire time. i make things happen! im not trying to sell a doom and gloom story, im just saying the way this state manages animals is rediculous! we can do way better then what they are doing now!


coyoteslayer said:


> If your only seeing 250 bulls on the Nebo Unit then you certainly aren't looking in the right place. I hunt because I love the experience. I have also taken a lot of really nice animals while enjoying the moment. I don't consider it failure if I didn't kill a buck or bull.


Good hell! you sure like putting words in peoples mouths! once again, i never said i can only find 250 bulls. i know where theres some **** good bulls hanging out. its just not the quality that it has been or could be!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Good hell! you sure like putting words in peoples mouths! once again, i never said i can only find 250 bulls. i know where theres some **** good bulls hanging out. its just not the quality that it has been or could be!


I was just going by what you said.



> i want a legit opportunity at something bigger then a 250 bull.


You used this figure.



> well im not a poacher. never shot anything out of season. when you add up all the big game hunting, scouting, waterfowl hunting and turkey hunting, yeah i hunted well over 200 days. i get out ALOT. i'd love to hunt an elk farm some day, i have nothing against that! my signature basically states that i do not fail when i set out to do something. thats how i live my life. when i do something, i dont **** i go at it 110%, the entire time. i make things happen! im not trying to sell a doom and gloom story, im just saying the way this state manages animals is rediculous! we can do way better then what they are doing now!


Blah, blah, blah this means nothing to me in the real world. Lets get back to subject or are you not done thumping your chest?

The Nebo unit issued 125 tags last year and 72 bulls were killed. I don't see that as overkill. The Nebo unit can handle more tags because of the rough terrain.

Here is the average age of harvest for the Nebo unit in 2009

Archery 6.2
Rifle 5.9
ML 4.2
Premium 10.0

This doesn't look bad to me either even though I hate the average age of harvest objectives.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Here is the 2008 average age of harvest numbers.

Archery 7.5
Rifle 6.3
ML 4.7
Premium 6.0

I don't see a whole lot of difference between 2008 number and 2009 numbers as far as age goes. Lets face the facts. The NEBO unit doesn't have a lot of genetics for producing bulls above 380 BC Otherwise we would have seen this already because of the bulls average age of harvest.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

How about the 2010 harvest...

Central Mountains, Nebo Archery 44 hunters 11 sucsessful 13.4 av. days hunted 24.3 % succ.

Central Mountains, Nebo (early) Any Weapon 72 hunters 44 succsesful 5.3 av. days hunted 61.4% 

Central Mountains, Nebo Muzzleloader 29 hunters 13 succesful 5.7 av. days hunted 46.2%

Central Mountains, Nebo Premium 6 hunters 4 succesful 9.0 av. days hunted 66.7%


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## Huntoholic (Sep 17, 2008)

For the Nebo unit, just looking at the annual report (pg116), every year, except one, from 2002 to 2008 that unit has been at or above its objective. Is that not telling me that there are to many animals for that area to handle? 2009 dropped down to 79% of the objective. 

Looking at the years from 2002 to 2009, I guess I'm not sure how you can call it missed managed.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

proutdoors said:


> pheaz said:
> 
> 
> > +1. I have a hard time listening to Tony the rat. Considering he got kicked out of the SFW circle of trust 6 years ago. According to Tony it was wrong to take peoples money after he was out. But then came back with the Mule Deer Foundation to take money again. How much info is to be beleived from this human. He is still very bitter towards SFW since DON wouldn't split 50/50 with em.
> ...


The Tony Abbot that used to run SFW and worked at Parks Sportman right? :?:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

pheaz said:


> proutdoors said:
> 
> 
> > pheaz said:
> ...


I hope this isn't your source of proof.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Nop not proof, Just makin sure where talking about the same Tony. What is old Tony the fony up too now. Cant imagine myself, I figured someone might have found him buried in the desert somewhere.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

Ok so now that you know that he is the same Tony......present your proof unless you like to look like a fool again.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

coyoteslayer said:


> Ok so now that you know that he is the same Tony......present your proof unless you like to look like a fool again.


Look like a fool again? I looked back in the forums from the start, and you want to talk to me about lookin like a fool. The boys at one point thought that they had run you out for good. :mrgreen: BTW where ya at on that feeding program you was talking about. If ya all don't know Tony by now you will eventially. Why do you think Tony left SFW? Why do you think he pushed MDF so hard. I suppose he wanted to be the DON of MDF :idea: . Thats why I say whats he up to now. I have spent many of nights with Tony after banquets, dinners, meetings, and hunting.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Look like a fool again? I looked back in the forums from the start, and you want to talk to me about lookin like a fool. The boys at one point thought that they had run you out for good.


I guess when you speak your mind then people with sensitive skin instead of thick skin get hurt.



> BTW where ya at on that feeding program you was talking about. If ya all don't know Tony by now you will eventially. Why do you think Tony left SFW? Why do you think he pushed MDF so hard. I suppose he wanted to be the DON of MDF . Thats why I say whats he up to now. I have spent many of nights with Tony after banquets, dinners, meetings, and hunting


I knew you couldn't produce anything, but thanks for trying :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2011)

proutdoors said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > dog slayer,
> ...


 :lol: this is what kills me about this site. its all a big pissing contest on who is the greater badass amoung us and who knows more useless information about the dumbest **** imaginable. im not into braging, thats not how i was raised, but i'll stoop to your level for a bit. im not as old as some of you guys are nor have i been able to put a 400" bull on the ground or a 200" buck. i havent been able to travel the world and hunt every animal out there, but i have hunted a few different states and have had some great experiences. i never claimed to be the 'man', but i'll compare hunting resumes with CS anytime. if he were to look back at the age i am (assuming he is older, which im sure he is because older people always know best) and compare what he has done with what i have done, i promise he hasnt the list of animals i have. by the age of 21, i had killed 43 big game animals with my bow and 24 more with a rifle/muzzleloader. 15 of them making P&Y record books. 1 made B&C. i had killed 12 long beards with a bow, 4 with a shot gun. i had killed thousands of ducks/geese, 4 swans, 2 sandhill cranes (not impressive i know, but i still had the opportunity to go, which is more then alot of people can say). i had also guided friends on countless tags for a variety of animals.

i never said any of you guys are greenhorns or that you dont know what you are doing. im sure you do. all i was saying is that from what I MYSELF have experienced is the elk herds are not what they should be and what i thought needs/should be done. im not like most of the people who get on here and add their 2 cents. i can back up what i have to say. im not a weekend warrior (i dont have anything against them) i have just been fortunate enough to be able to hunt 3-5 days a week. i get off the roads. i know how to hunt. i know how, when and where to locate animals. i know what im doing. but thanks for having little to no faith in me when i say what i have experienced or found. just because you dont know who i am, DOESNT mean that im retarded or the common u-tard who hunts 3 weekends a year. god, some day i can only HOPE to be what you refer to as the 'man', just like yourselves. but the bright side is, i keep reading what you guys have to say, so im learning from the best!!  :roll: :lol: _(O)_


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

I've killed 5 bucks, they were all little two points except 1 it was a little 3 point. 1 archery antelope that was 3/4 of an inch shy of P&Y it was also the first one that come into the water hole. 4 grouse. and 6 doves. I have guided my wife on 3 hunts, she scored a little 3 point a few years ago and a forked horn last year. I rock!!! Now that you know my hunting resume...I love hunting. I will miss it when it is gone, or when I just cant afford it anymore! We are screwing ourselves. The more people that have the oportunity to hunt the more likely it will be there for our kids. Looking and what is happening right now, I think that the average hunter is screwed. I think that unless you make a hell of alot more money than I do... you will not be hunting big game in the near future. It makes me sad. The funny thing is it seems to be the upper-middle class that is fighting for this trophy type hunting. I think it will be absolutly hilarious when they can not afford the tags and the only people out there hunting are the sports stars and multi millionaires. I have just started an outdoors type room at my house. I have my antelope skull on a shelf, and my pile of tiny deer antlers. People come over and ask me about my antelope and pile of horns, I dont say the antelope was 3/4 of an inch shy of P&Y. I tell them the absolutly amazing and funny story of how I got that antelope. I tell them about how amazing a shot my wife is. I tell them, ya my kids were with me for that one, my 6 year old daughter cried and told me if I make it into sausage she will stop crying. On one wall I have my Grandfathers .30 rem rifle. under that are dozens of big game pictures of my Grandfather from my side and my wifes, and my dad and my father-in-law. There are no trophies thier, but I cherish those pictures. Those faces are absolutly excited. I look at them and see what hunting is all about to me. It is heritage, fun, relaxing a getaway. It is putting good-for-you meat on the table. It is teaching my kids about God, about life. It is good people helping each other. To me and my family it is not about a 200 class buck or a 400 class bull. It is about living.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

kill_'em,,
I also have spent many days on the mountain,, 

For some unkown'n reason, Ton's of exsperiance just dosen't count for many 
on this forum. Easy to spot the ones that do know " how it is " .. 

And in some cases it's just a differance in oppinion, which is fine..
Most of the time this comes down to quality verse's oppertunity..

But one thing is FOR SURE,,
The ones not seeing bull quality droping on L/E units ,,OR,,
General season deer herds declining rapidly,,OR,,
Even moose/antelope herds NOT what they were 3-5 years ago....

Are simply blind, or in denial, OR just dont care and more worried about oppertunity
to hunt every year.......( better leave plenty of room here for the "red" lines)..

IMHO, managing deer by unit, opt 2/hunter conntroll, is a key element we
need to use on this road of deer recovery we are on...
Along with all the other elimates holding deer recovery back..

It is also my oppnion tag numbers for most L/E elk , moose , & some antelope
units need to be reduced......TOO much oppertunity has deffinatly hurt quality.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

I was going to make a long post about managing the "opportunity" units better for opportunity and the "Quality" units better for quality. But it has already been said several times. I am tired of all this BS. Hey everyone maybe if we all get on a forum and bitch about it then something will happen!!!!


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Here's the thing 2litl2,,
I THINK there is TONS of oppertunity for guy that just want to hunt with
elk, Spike and general, Unlimited archery elk either sex....

Lot's of antlerless hunting oppertunity from August clear thru January..

And, It's not like there's not still going to be a TON of deer hunting oppertunity..

Then run down and buy your self a state wide turkey permit,,,AND GO HUNTING :!:
Thats just a few weeks away......


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> this is what kills me about this site. its all a big **** contest on who is the greater badass amoung us and who knows more useless information about the dumbest **** imaginable. im not into braging, thats not how i was raised, but i'll stoop to your level for a bit. im not as old as some of you guys are nor have i been able to put a 400" bull on the ground or a 200" buck. i havent been able to travel the world and hunt every animal out there, but i have hunted a few different states and have had some great experiences. i never claimed to be the 'man', but i'll compare hunting resumes with CS anytime. if he were to look back at the age i am (assuming he is older, which im sure he is because older people always know best) and compare what he has done with what i have done, i promise he hasnt the list of animals i have. by the age of 21, i had killed 43 big game animals with my bow and 24 more with a rifle/muzzleloader. 15 of them making P&Y record books. 1 made B&C. i had killed 12 long beards with a bow, 4 with a shot gun. i had killed thousands of ducks/geese, 4 swans, 2 sandhill cranes (not impressive i know, but i still had the opportunity to go, which is more then alot of people can say). i had also guided friends on countless tags for a variety of animals.


Blah blah blah, this has nothing to do with elk on the Nebo unit. I'm sure you can run the fastest, fart the loudest, and jump the highest, but this still doesn't mean the Nebo unit is going downhill.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> kill_'em,,
> I also have spent many days on the mountain,,
> 
> For some unkown'n reason, Ton's of exsperiance just dosen't count for many
> ...


Because there is plenty of data and experience from other people that puts your opinion into question. Sure you have a lot of great experience. The problem is you think people are personally attacking you. You want everyone to believe you, and when they don't then you say they are clueless.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

I hear you Goof, one of the problems that I see on my side of the isle is we are afraid of loosing everthing so we will give nothing. That idea has to go. I look at is as if we give nothing we will lose everthing. In the end I think the unit by unit management will be a good thing. It just makes sence to me that to manage deer numbers you have to have smaller units, you cannot lump the west desert into the same unit as strawberry and the big units do just that. You have to be able to control where the hunters hunt on a smaller scale. What gets me upset is when people start talking about managing the whole state for quality animals. As for hunting does and other animals, I like to hunt close to home $$$$. And there are simply not any doe units close to me. I am trying to convince the wife to let me get a turkey tag....well see. I tried a cow hunt last year and was not able to pull it off, as my Father-in-law would say, "You just need to learn how to John Wayne it!" I am sure I will get better with time as far as elk hunting goes it was loads of fun and I am not at all upset about not filling my tag. There is nothing like having 4 elk bust out of the trees 15 yards from you.


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

kill_'em_all said:


> by the age of 21, i had killed 43 big game animals with my bow and 24 more with a rifle/muzzleloader.


 Cough cough Bull$h!t cough cough cough.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

blackdog said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > by the age of 21, i had killed 43 big game animals with my bow and 24 more with a rifle/muzzleloader.
> ...


Hey dog,,,
I personaly have met several young men that fall into this category of
big game animals harvested and age........It's happening.

I'd be careful calling BS.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2011)

blackdog said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > by the age of 21, i had killed 43 big game animals with my bow and 24 more with a rifle/muzzleloader.
> ...


im sure its hard for you to believe because you havent killed 67 animals total in your life! i did it in 9 years... its really not too hard to accomplish if you fill every tag you get. 8 general deer tags. 8 general elk tags. antlerless permits every year. LE pronghorn tags. OIL moose tag. 3 wyoming pronghorn a year for 3 years. wyoming elk tags. 4 whitetails every year for 6 years. feral hogs/sheep/goats.... the numbers add up quick!  :lol: but ok, whatever. i have nothing to prove to you.


goofy elk said:


> kill_'em,,
> I also have spent many days on the mountain,,
> 
> For some unkown'n reason, Ton's of exsperiance just dosen't count for many
> ...


goofy, youre right. but to every 'man; who knoes everything there is to know, we know nothing about a unit that we spend so much time on. every keyboard warrior/arm chair hunter knows EXACTLY how the herds of elk are doing on each unit and knows there are big bulls behind every tree and herds upon herds of cows on every hill side. next we are going to hear how awesome the muledeer herds are in the state!

o-||


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> Blah blah blah, this has nothing to do with elk on the Nebo unit. I'm sure you can run the fastest, fart the loudest, and jump the highest, but this still doesn't mean the Nebo unit is going downhill.


I would suggest looking at the draw odds starting in 2006 right up through this
year ..........
Steady decline to the point of being one of the easiest to draw units in the state..

That pretty much tells the story,,,,,,, :O•-:


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Is Tony part of the UWC?


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

proutdoors said:


> pheaz said:
> 
> 
> > +1. I have a hard time listening to Tony the rat. Considering he got kicked out of the SFW circle of trust 6 years ago. According to Tony it was wrong to take peoples money after he was out. But then came back with the Mule Deer Foundation to take money again. How much info is to be beleived from this human. He is still very bitter towards SFW since DON wouldn't split 50/50 with em.
> ...


Pro, I do know MY FACTS and I do have verified TRUTHS of this individual. Being part of SFW (running banquets for Tony and Don) and him being my brothers Best Friend and Hunting partner. Beleive me I know him a hell of lot more than most of you can say. But lets see if he leaves that bad taste in your mouth. :mrgreen:


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

No, Tony is not a member of the Board of Directors, nor is he a Corporate Officer.

*** You can find out who IS by logging onto our site. While you're there, join up! 8)


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

GOOD I hope it stays that way. Unless you want to turn a huge profit. Tony knows all about the loop holes and the get rich quick process.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Personally, I have met Tony a few times, and found him to be a very pleasant and agreeable young man, with a true sense of caring for our hunting heritage and the animals we pursue. I can't attest to anything else, but do find it distasteful to demean ANY individuals name on the Internet, especially when they are not involved in the discussion. I will leave it at that.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Personally, I have met Tony a few times, and found him to be a very pleasant and agreeable young man, with a true sense of caring for our hunting heritage and the animals we pursue. AGREE 100%-but with him having dollar signs in the eyes.

Pro wrote-I would like to know your source that gave you the impression Tony was "kicked out of the SFW circle"? From MANY talks with Tony, he didn't see the error of his ways until a few years ago. What you imply is based on what? If you are going to attack a REAL person on the internet, I suggest you KNOW your facts and stick to verified truths.

I answered.


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## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

A point of clarification pheaz. The UWC is NOT about "making a huge profit" or "looking for loopholes" to get there. As an organization we care deeply about our natural resourses and those who enjoy them, as I'm sure you do as well. It's a tough world out there, and one in which, unfortunately, the vocal minority usually gets the grease for the squeaky wheel. We seek to change that outcome and motivate and speak for those who feel total frustration with what has been a process that has seen little positive progress, if you will. There is room for all of us in the hunting world, be you trophy hunter or meat hunter, no single group should have the final say in how our wildlife is managed, but we ALL should have a say, wouldn't you agree? Let's keep the resourse we all love as a high priority and do all we can to protect its future.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Agreed- I personally would love to see a organization for the people. So as I said before when it proves to be for the public count me in. After reading alot of posts and opinions of different members, I do have a different perspective on alot though.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

I know Tony plenty well. But, this isn't about Tony, it isn't about pheaz, and it isn't about me. Its about what direction the management of big game in the state is headed, and whether it is the 'right' direction. At least that is how I see things. I have plenty of haters as well, with plenty of accusations about my character. I could worry about each claim, but instead I focus on what I can control, what I KNOW to be the truth, and what I truly care about. 

I apologize for getting sucked into the silliness of asserting who is a 'real' hunter, who has 'real' experience in the hills, and who has a 'real' clue about what is going on. Suffice it to say there are MANY on here that spend more than the average amount of time in the hills, that care about wildlife/hunting, and want what is best for the animals. How we use that info/passion is where the dilemma is. I will tend to err on the side of proven data/facts, and on the side of opportunity over the side of 'new' or unproven methods and the trophy mentality. Balance is the key, IMHO. I like the idea of managing some units for the 'trophy' hunters, some for the 'opportunity' hunters, and some in between. I have hunted/guided in several states, and there are some things Utah does better than the other western states, but there are many things they lag severely in. Striving to improve the game quantity and 'quality' is good, how we go about getting there is the key. Do we go with quantity at the expense of 'quality'? Do we go with 'quality' at the expense of quantity? Or, do we try and balance the two out? I prefer the later.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

I for one are just like GOOFY for the quality. But yes we still have to have quanity and how to acheive that is the ?
My OPINION we should go state wide 3 point or better hunt on ALL general units. We all still get the OPPORTUNITY to hunt, but still acheive letting the little bucks mature and start building the quanity.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

The problem with 3 point or better, its one of those concepts that has a HORRIBLE track record and has not proven to be a viable solution. Also, what does it actually fix? I see it more as, at best, a band aid. If you force hunters to target the very bucks you want more of, you are swimming up the current during the high runoff.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

The only thing I see that doing Pheaz is make hunting real "fetching crappy" for 1 or 2 years then we will be right back where we are now. If you anyone can link some studies that show differently...do it. I agree with Pro, balance. some opportunity hunts and some quality hunts. Not all one or the other. Tired of this idea that you can manage the whole state the same. I have a genius idea though we could open a white tail only hunt out by Delta. (someone please post a pic of a white tail with IPP in the background.) I hope the direction the state is going in right now will work. I think it will be easier to manage each sub-unit better weather it be a trophy unit or not.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I kind of liked tony's idea about having 30 percent of the elk units be LE primo top units and have the rest be general open bull...it would be nice to be able to draw an elk tag every few years and be able to shoot a 250-300 inch bull. we have so many elk and I'll only be able to have one or maybe two chances in my life to realistically hunt bull elk in utah...I know, most people want everything limited entry and grow monster bulls and are disgusted at the thought of anything short of 380.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

And 5 years or so down the road when where down to 150-200 inch bulls then what? If you just want the meat shoot a spike and let the 250-300 bulls mature.


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## tonyabbott (Dec 4, 2010)

Funny how some people think that know me and my intentions and my reasons for the decisions I made. NONE of you know me well enough to speak for me. And though some of you I respect for your efforts and opinions, ONLY I know why I left the SFW and the MDF.

And who is my best friend and hunting friend that is your brother that you mention? I am curious to put a name and face to the person that claims to know so much about me and my career with SFW and MDF.

As for the show goes I appreciate all of you that listened. And yes I was referring to the Convention permits not the conservation permits. SOme of you need to get your FACTS straight before you speak. IT will make you look not so ignorant.

As for the UWC goes I am not affiliated with them at all other than I know some of the people involved. I wish them well and would welcome them on my radio program to help them get started, and contrary to some of your guys beliefs I won't be charging them for this and I wont be showing them all of my magnificent secrets that you speak of to make money through loopholes......LMAO

ANd for your info I am just doing my own thing. RAdio, hunt bookings, guiding and my new website www.myfreehunts.com

But I will tell you this. Anything I have ever said or ever will say in regards to the sfw or the mdf I would stand before a judge in a court of law and say them and I would take a lie detector test about them. I am 100% positive the other side would not do the same thing.

It is a very very tired story to hear how some of you seem to think you know the specifics of my involvement with sfw and mdf. If you want to know then call me and I will take you to lunch and even buy it for you. Otherwise just let a sleeping dog lay. I KNOW all the facts and have a paper trail to back up those facts, none of you do. Let me be. Let me do what I think I can for Utah's wildlife through my radio show and my connections. It never was and never will be about money for me. And I definitely NEVER wanted to be the "Don" of MDF. FYI I declined the CEO position for MDF before I hired Miles Morretti to be the CEO. That is a FACT......

I had Doyle and Adam on the show to talk about a hot topic that needs to be addressed, nothing more or nothing less. Be appreciative for the outlet I have to help Utahs wildlife, and get your facts straight before you speak. All of us will be better off if you guys do.

Call me anythime.
Tony Abbott
8018851274


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Tony P.M. sent


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

Pheaz, I am talking about mule deer. God I love the internet!!! Oh and good post Mr. Abbott. You just internet decked someone!!!! It is sad that you have to get on here and defend youself from someone who you don't even know. Thank God none of you know who I am I am sure that all of my comments would be cast out as ignorant fools ramblings. This has become a sad sad thread. I am done posting my thoughts to the obiss of the internet.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

2litl2l8 said:


> Pheaz, I am talking about mule deer. God I love the internet!!! Oh and good post Mr. Abbott. You just internet decked someone!!!! This has become a sad sad thread. I am done posting my thoughts to the obiss of the internet.


Pretty sure it was a post to utahgolf. Have you really seen 250-300 inch class deer? Didn't think so. Wow gotta love the intelligence 2litl2l8.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

Sorry I get wrapped up in my own little world and and the only thing that matters is that which is related to me.


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## tonyabbott (Dec 4, 2010)

Pheaz

Are you going to reveal yourself to me so we can move forward? Or are you gonna continue to make claims you cannot backup?


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

I would just like to say something about 3pt or better. IMO I believe it was working on Monroe. 

For the most part 3pt or better bucks are targeted by everyone. I don't know of anyone who only targets 3pt or lesser bucks. Every 4pt buck in the state has a great big target on their back but they are much harder to harvest. So I believe they fair much better against the hunter. So its not as if a 3pt or better buck is spared any pressure due to an any buck rule. With few exceptions does anyone see an opportunity to harvest a 4pt and passes to wait for a a 2pt.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Iron Bear said:


> I would just like to say something about 3pt or better. IMO I believe it was working on Monroe.
> 
> For the most part 3pt or better bucks are targeted by everyone. I don't know of anyone who only targets 3pt or lesser bucks. Every 4pt buck in the state has a great big target on their back but they are much harder to harvest. So I believe they fair much better against the hunter. So its not as if a 3pt or better buck is spared any pressure due to an any buck rule. With few exceptions does anyone see an opportunity to harvest a 4pt and passes to wait for a a 2pt.


I agree in general and I am in that boat; I pass on many that don't meet my goals. However, there are a lot of people, including almost every person who I have ever hunted with who shoots the first thing with any antler at all. So, in my small world, it is rare for anyone to hold out for something of size. Those same people also shoot decent ones once in a while, but generally look to fill their tag with anything.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

tonyabbott said:


> Pheaz
> 
> Are you going to reveal yourself to me so we can move forward? Or are you gonna continue to make claims you cannot backup?


Are you goin reply to my P.M.


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## longbow (Mar 31, 2009)

kill_'em_all said:


> i hunted over 200 days last year. what about you?
> im not into braging, thats not how i was raised,
> i promise he hasnt the list of animals i have. by the age of 21, i had killed 43 big game animals with my bow and 24 more with a rifle/muzzleloader. 15 of them making P&Y record books. 1 made B&C. i had killed 12 long beards with a bow, 4 with a shot gun. i had killed thousands of ducks/geese, 4 swans, 2 sandhill cranes (not impressive i know, but i still had the opportunity to go, which is more then alot of people can say). i had also guided friends on countless tags for a variety of animals.
> i can back up what i have to say.


Holy cow!!! You are the man! It would be an honor to meet you.
I suspect that Goofy, Pro, Coyoteslayer and I are quite a bit older than you and I bet you still have shot more with a bow than all of us put together. I don't know the exact numbers so I can't say but I suspect it's so. You should post some pictures. I'd love to see some of your P&Y stuff. Looking forward to it.


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## bigbr (Oct 24, 2007)

How in the hell can the EXPO convention tag money not be accounted for when it was all transacted out of NV with the applications?


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

bigbr said:


> How in the hell can the EXPO convention tag money not be accounted for when it was all transacted out of NV with the applications?


bigbr...we know what organizations end up with the money. We just don't know what those organizations do with the money once they get it.

Do you feel that a significant portion of it should back on the ground to Utah wildlife?


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Big,,,
Fallon NV doesn't do the EXPO draw.......

And correct me if I'm wrong,,But,, pretty sure the "Sportsman for Habitat" do it.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Iron Bear said:


> I would just like to say something about 3pt or better. IMO I believe it was working on Monroe.
> 
> For the most part 3pt or better bucks are targeted by everyone. I don't know of anyone who only targets 3pt or lesser bucks. Every 4pt buck in the state has a great big target on their back but they are much harder to harvest. So I believe they fair much better against the hunter. So its not as if a 3pt or better buck is spared any pressure due to an any buck rule. With few exceptions does anyone see an opportunity to harvest a 4pt and passes to wait for a a 2pt.


I'll go on record for passing on a 4pt to shoot a small 2pt. I looked over pictures recently I took of different harvests, it was amusing to me that my top 5 most favorite hunts / pictures were some of the smallest deer I've taken. They are the most memerable for reasons other than pure inches of antler. My biggest buck, a gnarly Book Cliffs heavy nontypical doesnt even break the top 10.

I'm in the minority for sure, but to me hunting is all about reasons most people have long forgotten.

-DallanC


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Iron Bear said:
> 
> 
> > I would just like to say something about 3pt or better. IMO I believe it was working on Monroe.
> ...


I don't think you are in the minority. The poll that the DWR put out shows that people just want to be out there, not even necessarily about the kill, they just want the opportunity.


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

goofy elk said:


> Big,,,
> Fallon NV doesn't do the EXPO draw.......
> 
> And correct me if I'm wrong,,But,, pretty sure the "Sportsman for Habitat" do it.


And that there is a HUGE problem. Sportsmen for Habitat is separate from SFW on paper. In truth they are the SAME entity. So, we are supposed to trust SFH and SFW to be honest on the drawings, and honest/open where the funds from the convention tags goes. Anyone else besides me see any reason for concern? :O•-:


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

Conservation or convention tag I'm for doing away with all of them. Or at least reducing the amount of them.

1. I have little faith the 100s of millions raised from conservation tags put into habitat has been done for what a majority of hunters hunt. Deer. 

2. The whole process of doling these tags out to groups like SFW RMEF MDF has served to promote a super trophy hunt. Which in turn works against the masses. 

3. The end result of this program has injected greed into circle. To the point that the main conservation groups we have in Utah. Have more concern on getting these tags for revenue than operating on their merits. And some have lost most if not all their merit.


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## tonyabbott (Dec 4, 2010)

I will answer your pm right here on an open forum once I know who I am talking with. I have nothing to hide, but it appears you do Peaze. So what will it be?


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2011)

tonyabbott said:


> I will answer your pm right here on an open forum once I know who I am talking with. I have nothing to hide, but it appears you do Peaze. So what will it be?


haha i like this tony abbott guy! all up front with nothing to hide!


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I would suggest looking at the draw odds starting in 2006 right up through this
> year ..........
> Steady decline to the point of being one of the easiest to draw units in the state..
> 
> That pretty much tells the story,,,,,,


I suggest you look at the average age of harvest. It's right around 6.0 years old. This means that some bulls were older than 6 years old. Like some could have been 7, 8, 9 10 years old and some less than 6years old. 72 bulls make up the number. How old should the average age of harvest be to see giant bulls? 15 years old? Goofy lets face the facts. If the average age of harvest was 3 or 4 years old then I would agree with you, but it isn't.


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Iron Bear wrote:


> I would just like to say something about 3pt or better. IMO I believe it was working on Monroe.
> 
> For the most part 3pt or better bucks are targeted by everyone. I don't know of anyone who only targets 3pt or lesser bucks. Every 4pt buck in the state has a great big target on their back but they are much harder to harvest. So I believe they fair much better against the hunter. So its not as if a 3pt or better buck is spared any pressure due to an any buck rule. With few exceptions does anyone see an opportunity to harvest a 4pt and passes to wait for a a 2pt.


This topic may be off topic, but I am against antler restrictions so I am just going to put in my 2 cents. I was on the Monroe during the 2pt restriction and it did not work. It is not an exaggeration to say that close to the same amount of 2pts still died on that unit even when the restrictions were in place. They just weren't claimed or tagged.

Why would you consider managing deer the opposite way that we manage elk? Kill all the big deer so that the 2pts and spikes are left to breed the does? It has the opposite effect on quality, it eliminates our bigger deer. It works natural selection backwards. It's true everyone wants a 3pt or better buck, but people tag out... What do they gain from that? They gain experience. Would you rather have someone wound a 2pt on their first hunt or spray a mountain side with adrenaline and wet their pants and wound a 4pt on their first hunt.

Hunting is a learning experience and shooting a 2pt enables newer hunters to gut an animal and understand how hard it is to field dress them and drag them out. It also ensures that genetic traits that lead deer to maturity are passed down from generation to generation.

I would love to go out to lunch with Tony Abbott whether it be on my own dime or his. If antler restrictions is ever presented on roughing it outdoors I would love to be a guest for interview. I was only a child when the point restrictions were placed on the Monroe so my hiking abilities were limited, but I managed to find many 2pt skulls within my hiking range. Amazing that he would post his phone number on the forum... :shock:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> > I would suggest looking at the draw odds starting in 2006 right up through this
> > year ..........
> > Steady decline to the point of being one of the easiest to draw units in the state..
> >
> ...


It never fails, statistics seem to always be a year or two behind the current
situation in any given unit....

A couple more thoughts on the Nebo elk, the success rates for 2010 season,
all 4 hunts combine and averaged had a 49.6 average success for hunters..

Also the last 2 years of older bulls, many that were cleaned out, many were older 
bulls that never got bigger than 310-320 that were passed up in earlier years..

I've been awaiting the 2010 average age harvest report for 2010,
Yote, want to make a friendly bet on what direction it gos.. :?:

And finally, Why are guys that complain they just want opportunity not
applying for easy to draw hunts???????
There are quite a few units getting easier to draw every year,
pick up a bow or smoke pole and your "in" with very few points and hunting..

Most don't want to take a risk with the 5 year waiting period on leaser units
I guess,,Because the lower quality units just keep getting easier to draw.. _(O)_ 
That's good for me though,I'll just keep on picking up a L/E elk tag every 7 years. 8)


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

After relaxing at home last night, reading posts and several other articles. I have changed my opinion on a lot of things. At the risk of sounding unintelligent, I figured that far too many people have been unwilling to share their own opinions and worries in a forum setting that actually matters. I see the value of this forum as it caused me to rethink my own opinions and made me want to become involved in more than just posting my opinions in an anonymous setting. So unfortunately for some you will continue to hear my un-educated opinions in an anonymous format, hopefully they will not rub off on you and make you stupid. That said hopefully this post is not too long and hopefully you will not just skip over it. Perhaps I put too much value in my own opinion. 

What I want as far as wildlife and hunting opportunity in the end is the opportunity for my kids to enjoy and learn as I have if they choose too. I have learned that there is lots of opportunity do to this without hunting bucks every year. I think that a lot of people have this idea in their head like I did that the only opportunity they have to hunt is hunting bucks in the general season. Like Goof said, there is plenty of opportunity you just have to pursue other animals. Looking at different hunts last night, there are several archery antelope hunts that were drawn with 1 point last year. I will just have to get strategic about when and what hunts I put in for. 

I love hunting. It is my break every year. Like MM73 said in another thread “I am not a rich man, and I am also not someone who has the luxury of spending every weekend pursuing my hobbies. Most weekends my time is spoken for by others, mainly by my family.” There is no way I would be able to afford to hunt like Kill_em_all in time or money. Never mind be as successful as he claims to be. I can barely afford the tag and gas to hunt the two hunts I do right now (average anyway.) 

I am not a trophy hunter, I would love to take a trophy mule deer and I suppose that I will eventually whether it be by luck or planning. As far as the Deer and Elk numbers go, and what will help them recover I have no idea. Based on the idea that mule deer are declining all across the west I am beginning to think that they have a cycle much like jackrabbits. Perhaps a longer population cycle but a cycle none the less, and no matter what we do to try to help the population it will continue on this cycle. As far as elk go, I think some units are overhunted and the DWR is working to even it all out but it will take some time and some trial and error. Whose interest they have at heart, I have no idea. It does appear to me that they are desperately in need of money and they are trying to get what they can from who they can while still trying to help the general public. 

In closing, if you do not agree with me I will not argue with you. I have already said how I feel. I have no facts to back up my opinion, it is an opinion based on my own life and experiences. It is built on other people’s opinions and ideas from this forum and from my own friends and family. It is good to have two opposing views to ideally keep everything in balance. I am not trying to change anyone’s mind just stating and standing for my own ideas. So if you question my opinion I will read your reply and try to respond the best I can in an intelligent way. It does not help anything to revert to your teen age years when you don’t or can’t come up with a worthwhile response. We are grownups now and coming back with lame attacks in a forum is asinine.


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## Old Fudd (Nov 24, 2007)

DOYLE! this MOSS that !DON! this PEAY that! Who died and made these guys GODS! and MASTERS! of what goes on with Utahs Wildlife.?What bout all the folks out here who's input is tossed to the wayside. Money Talks and normal guys and gals who care and never seem to get heard ,, WALK!! FOLLOW THE MONEY!! I'am so sick of hearin bout these 2 guys I could PUKE!! ..


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

2litl2l8 said:


> I have learned that there is lots of opportunity do to this without hunting bucks every year.


2litl2l8..I think the "opportunity" side of thinks have been mischaracterized. The guys that are fighting for opportunity are in no way shape or form arguing for "hunting deer every year".

What we are saying is don't cut opportunity solely for the sake of growing bigger/trophy bucks on general units. If buck to doe ratios get too low...by all means cut tags. But we don't want to see tags cut on general units solely so those lucky enough to draw can go out and shoot a big buck.

The recent deer management changes for general deer upped the minimum buck to doe ratios and cut 13,000 deer tags. For what you ask? The biologists tell us it WON'T HELP DEER HERDS but it will grow a few bigger bucks. We have a problem with that. That's what the LE program is for, for those people. And we also feel the majority did not want this change.

Make sense? Sorry just wanted to clarify what the "opportunity" guys are really saying.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

Two questions;

Will increasing the buck to doe ratio in reality grow bigger bucks, or will it just make the success rates go up? 

How long does it take a buck to be "mature?"

In my own case, I know that even if I know there are supposedly more bucks on the mountain I will not hold out for a 3 point or better. Perhaps my chances of seeing a 3 point or better go up but I will not wait. I tell myself I will but it never works out that way. 

A cut in tags is needed at this point. Whether it is for growing bigger bucks or herd recover is a moot point right now.

Bull, I see your point and I agree with you. Cutting tags to help herd numbers=good. Cutting tags to make wall hangers for the elite=bad. I see the other side as well. If I were an elite I would want more oppotunity for a bigger buck, but most of the time you can't have that situation.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

2litl2l8 said:


> A cut in tags is needed at this point.
> 
> Cutting tags to help herd numbers=good.


Just one question to this line of thinking: Do bucks give birth? If not, how will this help?

I can't figure people out who ask for a cut in tags and believe it will help the herd numbers. How will cutting buck numbers help the herd grow?


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

Wyo, I am not saying a cut in tags will help herd numbers, I am saying if it does that it is a good thing. 

One of my questions I answered myself via a Texas deer study. It states that a mule deer is mature (as far as antler growth goes) at 7.5 years and a good harvest age is 5.5 years. I am going to do a little research with some numbers and will post again in a bit.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

2litl2l8 said:


> A cut in tags is needed at this point. Whether it is for growing bigger bucks or herd recover is a moot point right now.


I don't think that it's a moot point. In fact it's the center piece of this discussion....if buck to doe ratios are healthy then why cut tags? Why is it needed? Cutting tags won't help does and fawns survive which is really what determines herd health. That's the problem, the biologists keep telling us that cutting tags isn't going to help a thing.

On units where buck to doe ratios are low then we should cut tags but doing it statewide when 75% or more of the general units are healthy from a buck to doe ratio is only for hunters wanting to see more/bigger bucks.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm all for more opportunity!! too many professional trophy hunters want opportunity cut to increase a greater chance at that obscene monster bull...I'd rather go out and chase 250 inch every few years than hoping for 1 chance in my life of a 350-380 inch bull... think of all those great hunts and memories with more opportunity.. life's too short to worry about how much measuring tape is used!!that's why I'd like to see more of the state opened up to a general bull draw and get rid of some of the limited entry areas! I know there is other opportunites, thats why I put in for cow tags and hunt other things but we are headed to the exclusive/expensive trophy hunter way of management and that kills the little man.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

2litl2l8....BTW I think it's great you're asking questions. That's the right thing to do! It's great that you're getting involved.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

utahgolf said:


> I'd rather go out and chase 250 inch every few years than hoping for 1 chance in my life of a 350-380 inch bull... think of all those great hunts and memories with more opportunity..


Utahgolf, I am only thinking of Mule Deer at the moment. If you throw Elk in there my intelligence apperantly goes right out the window. I see your point however and I agree with you, can't you do this now with the any bull units?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

It looks like Pheaz was spoken to by big brother again. Tony called him out and big brother stopped him in his tracks. In my opinion that is 2 strikes against him. Credibility is going out the door quick on him.

Also just to point out why I beleieve he knows little about elk and their growth, he said...


pheaz said:


> And 5 years or so down the road when where down to 150-200 inch bulls then what? If you just want the meat shoot a spike and *let the 250-300 bulls mature.*


Pheaz... did you know that almost 80% of the elk out ther will not make it to 350? Most will strugle to make to 320. Very few animals have the genetics to get that big. Pro said it well... a monster bull (400) is a freak of nature. What percentage of humans are 7'? Your statement is equivalent to saying that if we put the right conditions forthwith all children will grow to 7 feet. Not a chance!


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

MadHunter said:


> It looks like Pheaz was spoken to by big brother again. Tony called him out and big brother stopped him in his tracks. In my opinion that is 2 strikes against him. Credibility is going out the door quick on him.
> 
> Also just to point out why I beleieve he knows little about elk and their growth, he said...
> 
> ...


AND I SUPPOSE THAT 80% OF ALL 150-200 CLASS ELK WILL STRUGGLE TO MAKE 250 THEN. HUH? My comment stated that after all the 250-300 bulls are shot out. Then all 150-200class elk are shot out then what. :mrgreen:But please educate me with your intelligence. But people cry they want more opportunity. Fact is the quality of elk is down.Bring on the quality. Big brothers not talking to me BTW.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

is herd health judged on the size of the bulls?????


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

What deer herd in the state would be considered the best? Now the best could mean very different things to different people, but I'm talking about fawn survival/healthy herd/growing population and not looking for the really high buck/doe ratios. Is there a healthy herd in any part of the state that the biologists would deem "healthy"? If so, what has been done there to enable this to take place?


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

pheaz said:


> AND I SUPPOSE THAT 80% OF ALL 150-200 CLASS ELK WILL STRUGGLE TO MAKE 250 THEN. HUH? My comment stated that after all the 250-300 bulls are shot out. Then all 150-200class elk are shot out then what. :mrgreen:But please educate me with your intelligence. But people cry they want more opportunity. Fact is the quality of elk is down.Bring on the quality. Big brothers not talking to me BTW.


Obviously you understand nothing about life cycles.
First... In order for all the 250 to 300 bulls to be shot out it would take a huge act of negligence from the DWR and WB. They would have to issue so many tags it would be ridiculous. Oh and also, it would require all of the road hunters to get out of their trucks to even se these 250 to 300 inch bulls. On the same note by allowing branch antlered bulls to be harvested you would have a huge number of spikes growing to more mature ages and providing more branch antlered bulls. Second, most bulls that get to 300 are pretty much mature bulls. The maturity of a bull is not determined by antler size it's determined by age. So comes the preasure to raise age objectives in order to harvest more mature bulls. Ring a bell yet?

I am not denying that the quality of the bulls has declined; but only in reference to the last few years when conditions were favorable for bulls to reach freakishly large sizes. At the same rate with the current age objective management there have been a large number of bulls dying of old age. So would you prefer these lower class bulls die of old age or that they be harvested instead of wasted? Oh I am sorry I keep forgetting that according to you a bull needs to be huge to be harvested. The sub 350 class bulls don't deserve to be tagged. I doubt we will see an onslought of bulls in the 400+ range like we saw in recent years anytime soon in the future. There are too many variables that come into play for this to happen.

Thinking about all of your posts on the subject you are of the mindset that a mature bull is a trophy bull not a biologically mature bull.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> It never fails, statistics seem to always be a year or two behind the current
> situation in any given unit....
> 
> A couple more thoughts on the Nebo elk, the success rates for 2010 season,
> ...


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## blackdog (Sep 11, 2007)

longbow said:


> kill_'em_all said:
> 
> 
> > i hunted over 200 days last year. what about you?
> ...


I too am a fan of P&Y animals. I would really like to see some P&Y animals that the best hunter, oops my bad, I mean best "killer" in Utah has taken.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> I too am a fan of P&Y animals. I would really like to see some P&Y animals that the best hunter, oops my bad, I mean best "killer" in Utah has taken.


+1, if you need help posting pictures then let us know so we can help you out. I like to look at pictures of monster muleys so please post ASAP.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

longbow said:


> .


+1


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2011)

coyoteslayer said:


> > I too am a fan of P&Y animals. I would really like to see some P&Y animals that the best hunter, oops my bad, I mean best "killer" in Utah has taken.
> 
> 
> +1, if you need help posting pictures then let us know so we can help you out. I like to look at pictures of monster muleys so please post ASAP.


haha when did i ever say i harvested a monster muley with my bow??? i also never said i was the best hunter. i just simply stated that i get out alot, i know what im doing and im not one who shoots my mouth off and cant back up whatever i say (unlike some other people around here). the biggest muley bucks ive killed with a bow scored 155, 151 and 148. ive got 1 antelope that scored 72. i have a shiras moose that scored 148. i have an elk that scored 282. those are the only ones that i have killed in utah with a bow that are "worthy" of being called "trophy" animals and qualified for P&Y.

my photos are too large to post here and i dont know how to re-size them....


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> those are the only ones that i have killed in utah with a bow that are "worthy" of being called "trophy" animals and qualified for P&Y.


Why are you talking down your trophies? You said you had 15 P&Y trophies. They don't need to just be from Utah. Also post your 1 BC buck.

You can re-size them on Photobucket.com. Post your pictures...... even your little fellars.

No need for back-peddling. If you're going to brag so much about your trophies then atleast post some.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Kill em all you wanna borrow some of mine?


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Boys, lets keep this topic on subject. There is really no need to argue over who has the biggest or the most. We are all sportsmen here who want the same thing, more deer and a healthy herd.


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

MadHunter said:


> pheaz said:
> 
> 
> > AND I SUPPOSE THAT 80% OF ALL 150-200 CLASS ELK WILL STRUGGLE TO MAKE 250 THEN. HUH? My comment stated that after all the 250-300 bulls are shot out. Then all 150-200class elk are shot out then what. :mrgreen:But please educate me with your intelligence. But people cry they want more opportunity. Fact is the quality of elk is down.Bring on the quality. Big brothers not talking to me BTW.
> ...


So another point is made lets hunt the rags and leave the spikes to be I agree. And yes I am fully aware once a rag always a rag. Thanks for the educational lesson though.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2011)

pheaz said:


> Kill em all you wanna borrow some of mine?


the arrogance of some of you guys......... especially you pheaz. no thanks, i have my own.
i dont have the time nor the responsibility to show you EVERY animal i have killed that i have in my house or garages. heres 8 pictures that i just took of some of the animals i have taken. hopefully this will shut some of you up... i dont say things i cant back up.

































































btw pheaz, now that i have shared some of my pics with you, i think its about time that you now share that photo of the heber elk massacre that you claim to have... im waiting


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

Especially me? Gee thought I might help ya out. Sorry for the offer.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Nice work! 
Let's please end the penis measuring contest....and try to keep on topic now....


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## Nambaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Huge29 said:


> Nice work!
> Let's please end the penis measuring contest....and try to keep on topic now....


 :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2011)

pheaz said:


> Especially me? Gee thought I might help ya out. Sorry for the offer.


are you satisfied? or do you need more photos?


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## pheaz (Feb 11, 2011)

I for one didn't need any I beleived what you had. BTW nice whities.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

jahan said:


> Boys, lets keep this topic on subject. There is really no need to argue over who has the biggest or the most. We are all sportsmen here who want the same thing, more deer and a healthy herd.


Actually, I'm glad they went at it! It reveals who they are and what their motives are and allows us to evaluate their opinions. Anyone who has killed 67 big game animals, 16 turkeys, thousands of ducks and geese, 4 swans and 2 sandhill cranes (with an apology), and who hunts 200 days per year and has guided friends on countless hunts by the time they are 21, and who also spends a great deal of time on a hunting forum expounding those accomplishments is motivated by the numbers of kills to the point they have very little time or money for, or interest in, anything else. The same could be said for anyone who challenges those accomplishments with a list of their own. I'm sure there is no way they could look at a hunting situation or philosophy or issue like the average Utah hunter who hunts a week or so a year and does it for the get-away-from-the-normal-routine factor. They obviously want something different than most of us.

They are welcome to their lifestyle and opinions, but they don't speak for me, I know!


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

elkfromabove said:


> They are welcome to their lifestyle and opinions, but they don't speak for me, I know!


+1

Seems like we have done a couple of conversation circles now. This has actually been a educating thread for me, caused me to think more rather then just say I want to hunt more. It is not always that simple.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

I guess I just don't see the validity in the amount of animals killed as being a representation of your knowledge or love for wildlife. Here is my resume. I have killed exactly one deer in my life, I am 29. I hunt every year, but rarely kill. I am probably a sub average hunter compared to the people who frequent these forums. I just love to get out, I like the opportunity to hunt. I have never hunted another state, I have never drawn or hunted any once in a lifetime hunts. So does this mean that my opinion doesn't matter? I believe I represent more of an average hunter than most. I care deeply about wildlife and I have a passion to do whatever I can to help keep our wildlife at healthy populations so that hunting can continue.


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## Bow Mama (May 1, 2008)

Huge29 said:


> Nice work!
> Let's please end the penis measuring contest....and try to keep on topic now....


 :lol:


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