# CFP and Loaded Rifles



## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

My brother and I have been arguing. I read it as even if you have a CFP (Concealed Firearms Permit) that does not allow you to carry a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzleloading rifle in your vehicle. The law's that are in question here are 76-10-505 and 53-5-704. I am looking for a instance where a person with a CFP has been convicted of this or beat it.


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

There is no question. The law specifically says that you cannot carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle. And new last year, you do not need a CFP to carry a loaded handgun in your vehicle.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

The law specifically states in 53-5-704:



> *(c) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to a person issued a permit under Subsection (1)(a).*


Sure reads to me you CAN carry a loaded rifle in a vehicle with a ccw.

-DallanC


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I know a fish cop can ticket you for a bullet in the hole on an ATV, so I'd say don't risk it


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Bax* said:


> I know a fish cop can ticket you for a bullet in the hole on an ATV, so I'd say don't risk it


Interesting. Even with a handgun ?


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## Gee LeDouche (Sep 21, 2007)

Al Hansen said:


> [quote="Bax*":3lcp6wlt]I know a fish cop can ticket you for a bullet in the hole on an ATV, so I'd say don't risk it


Interesting. Even with a handgun ?[/quote:3lcp6wlt]

I dont think thats right. especially a CFP holder. As far as I understand it, it isnt any certain style of firearm that is covered by the CFP. Or else it would be a Concealed Pistol Permit. I dunno. I would like a little clarification on this also though.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Not with a handgun. But I have a friend that has received a ticket twice while on the deer hunt for driving around on his ATV with a round chambered in his rifle


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Did your friend have a CFP?

The law seems pretty darn clear here.

Section 76-10-504 and 76-10-505 layout the restrictions on loaded firearms in vehicles, but then section 53-5-704 clearly negates those two sections for a valid permit holder. I'd bet even if ticketed, a judge would throw it out.

Slight tangent but my CCP teacher was state representative Kurt Oda, one of the guys helping to write these laws. He did mention in class the DWR cannot cite you for a loaded rifle in a truck with a ccp, and he even semi-jokingly said "if that happens to anybody, I do want to hear about it".


-DallanC


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

He has his CCP. I just called him for clarification and the fish cop gave him a ticket because he had a cartridge chambered in his rifle while driving his ATV looking for deer. And he would not have been given a ticket if he just had it in the magazine and unchambered. He said that the officer basically said that the CCP only applies to handguns.

One thought I had though: my friend was hunting at the time and expecting to use the firearm to harvest a deer. The statement 2litl2l8 is citing is pretty vague in application, so I wonder if there is a law while hunting that forbids rifles/shotguns with a round in the hole?


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## reb8600 (Sep 8, 2007)

I do recall reading somewhere in the laws that you cannot carry one in a rifle if it is being used to hunt with. Regardless if you have a permit.


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## campfire (Sep 9, 2007)

Ok, here is a related question. I am under the impression that with a CFP I can carry a loaded handgun with me in, on or off a vehicle during the archery or muzeloader hunt. My question is, does it have to be concealed or can I carry it openly?


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

Despite what the law does or doesn't say I would say not to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

DallanC said:


> (c) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to a person issued a permit under Subsection (1)(a).


I read that as you are exempt from the provision of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505. The provision of 76-10-505 are (i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
(ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;

Which means in the end if you have a CFP then you can carry in any vehicle not just your own or someone elses as long as they no about it. Meaning Busses or Taxis you do not have to notify the driver. I could be wrong that is why I am looking for a case # where someone has been charged with violating this and has been convicted or has beaten the charges.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

After researching a bit more I found this in the proclimation. 

"The firearm restrictions in this section do not apply to concealed firearm permit holders carrying a concealed weapon in accordance with Utah Code § 76-10-504, provided the personis not utilizing the concealed firearm to hunt or take wildlife."

If I were a officer and I came a across a guy in a truck that had a tag for a buck deer valid from 10/22/11 to 10/30/11 and it was the 25th of Oct. He has a CFP and has a loaded rifle in his vehicle, it is safe to assume that he is hunting with that rifle and he would be in violation of some law, I just cannot find the acctual law other than. 

As a CFP holder you are exempt from 76-10-504 (1) and (2)
not (5) which I have listed below.

76-10-504 (5) Nothing in Subsection (1) or (2) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code of Utah, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:

(ONLY IF THE TAKING OF WILDLIFE DOES NOT OCCUR") it does not say if you are HUNTING only if you take wildlife.


I think it should be illegal to carry a loaded rifle in your vehicle even if you are a CFP holder when you are hunting. I am not looking for a loophole that allows me to carry a laded rifle in my car while hunting. I dont think you should be able to.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

2litl2l8 said:


> DallanC said:
> 
> 
> > (c) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to a person issued a permit under Subsection (1)(a).
> ...


Why are you skipping subsection 3? In this discussion its the most important part of 76-10-505:

*(3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.*

Which is negated by 53-5-704 for ccp holders.

-DallanC


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

2litl2l8 said:


> when you are hunting. I am not looking for a loophole that allows me to carry a laded rifle in my car while hunting. I dont think you should be able to.


So when are you "hunting"? A guy loads his truck up at 4am and heads for the hills. Is he "hunting" at that moment? At what point in commuting to his hunting area is he then concidered "hunting"?

-DallanC


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

Dallan, I get your point however... I was going to quote you but it is crazy long. I left out section 76-10-505 (3) because as I understand it now having a CFP exempts you from that whole section 76-10-505. I know what it says and you do as well. I was being hypothetical as far as the dude in his "truck." To humor you I will say he is on a dirt road in the area that his tag is good for.....nevermind all that I am just trying to convince my brother not to get himself into trouble in order to challenge this law or "prove a point."


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## Bhilly81 (Oct 18, 2009)

DallanC said:


> 2litl2l8 said:
> 
> 
> > when you are hunting. I am not looking for a loophole that allows me to carry a laded rifle in my car while hunting. I dont think you should be able to.
> ...


well are you going to load your rifle at your house then unload it as soon as you get to the mountain?

when i took the cwp class they told us that you are only allowed one loaded weapon with the permit and they emphasized that pretty thick

they also told of a gentleman that got caught with 6 rifles and shotguns plus a few pistols in his car all loaded ready to go and he got ticketed for all but one of those guns because it was unlawful to have more than one loaded weapon with the permit


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

bigboybdub said:


> when i took the cwp class they told us that you are only allowed one loaded weapon with the permit and they emphasized that pretty thick
> they also told of a gentleman that got caught with 6 rifles and shotguns plus a few pistols in his car all loaded ready to go and he got ticketed for all but one of those guns because it was unlawful to have more than one loaded weapon with the permit


That is not true, you can conceal carry as many dangerous weapons as you can put on your body as long as you have a CFP. There is no law that says only one dangerous weapon per permit holder. I could see if the officer summized was hunting he could get individual charges for each of the rifles and shotguns but not the handguns.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

2litl2l8 said:


> Dallan, I get your point however... I was going to quote you but it is crazy long. I left out section 76-10-505 (3) because as I understand it now having a CFP exempts you from that whole section 76-10-505. I know what it says and you do as well. I was being hypothetical as far as the dude in his "truck." To humor you I will say he is on a dirt road in the area that his tag is good for.....nevermind all that I am just trying to convince my brother not to get himself into trouble in order to challenge this law or "prove a point."


heh ok. Actually in raw "belief", we are more alike than un-alike. And its discussions like this that remind me why I hate the people who write non-intuative, hard to understand laws.

Carry on.

-DallanC


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## Fishrmn (Sep 14, 2007)

I think what all of 76-10-505 boils down to is this:
If you are not authorized to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle, you can't. If you are authorized to carry, i.e. a having a permit to carry a concealed firearm, then you can carry a loaded firearm. Now for the tricky part. Notwithstanding. Means regardless. As I read it even if you are legally able to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle, you cannot carry a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzleloader.


> Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

Fishrmn said:


> I think what all of 76-10-505 boils down to is this:
> If you are not authorized to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle, you can't. If you are authorized to carry, i.e. a having a permit to carry a concealed firearm, then you can carry a loaded firearm. Now for the tricky part. Notwithstanding. Means regardless. As I read it even if you are legally able to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle, you cannot carry a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzleloader.
> 
> 
> > Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.


You make a good point but as 53-5-704 (1)c points out, that if you have a permit, 76-10-505 does not apply to you.



> * 53-5-704*
> (1) (a) The bureau shall issue a permit to carry a concealed firearm for lawful self defense to an applicant who is 21 years of age or older within 60 days after receiving an application, unless the bureau finds proof that the applicant does not meet the qualifications set forth in Subsection (2).
> (c) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1) and (2), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to a person issued a permit under Subsection (1)(a).


I think there need to be clarification on this law. I personally would never carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in my vehicle I just don't see it as safe.


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## 2litl2l8 (Jan 16, 2008)

The conclusion that I have reached is if you have a CFP and as long as you are not hunting, you can have a loaded rifle, shotgun or muzzle-loader in you vehicle. I don't know why you would ever do that as Rifles do not have the same internal safety's as pistol and have "softer" triggers.


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