# Question on fist shot after cleaning



## Slap That Quack (Mar 2, 2017)

So I always wondered, do you think the first shot after clean your muzzleloader or rifle is effected by the oil that was used to finish of the cleaning routine? Or do you think it does not make a difference.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Absolutely it makes a difference, I've tested it countless times. When bench shooting I swab and dry the barrel, then run a patch with a slight amount of bore butter on it so it is identical to how it will be shot in the field. Its so easy to run the projectile down with that slight amount of lube. I also see alot less friction melting on the sides of spent sabots with that slight film on the barrel.

PS: Dont use oil ever in your ML barrel, use TC Bore Butter.


-DallanC


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

I started hunting with a Muzzleloader in 1989 and used a 54 cal hawken that used #11 percussion caps. Considering it had no breech plug, I was always taught to fire a couple of caps through it after I cleaned it to make sure it was dry (We cleaned them in the sink with water back then) I always went out side and fired it into dirt to make sure it kicked up dust. For some reason, I carried that same habit over to my inline and still do it today. Not sure if it removes the oil, fouls the barrel or really does anything but it works and if aint broke, don't fix it. I have shot and killed multiple deer with my first shot and they all flew true.


----------



## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> PS: Dont use oil ever in your ML barrel, use TC Bore Butter.-DallanC


Why not use oil? I have never had a problem using oil and it doesn't effect my first shot like you state the bore butter does. I used the nasty bore butter at one time but have since thrown it away and use the same oil I do in a centerfire rifle. Funny how gun oil protects centerfire rifles including rifles that shoot corrosive primers like my old Mosin but it's not good enough for a muzzy.

I clean and dry my muzzy before it's loaded for a hunt then run a lightly oiled patch down the barrel to the bullet just to protect the bore when hunting in the rain and snow, never had a failure to fire.


----------



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Oil will not hurt your ML barrel or components but oil will and does cause missfires much more than bore butter. It has been proven many times over that as a rust retardant products like WD40 out perform bore butter, but the residual from them can cause misfires. Both oil and bore butter are good lubricants and will help in loading.

I use and prefer Bore Butter over anything else in my muzzies.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

muddydogs said:


> Why not use oil? I have never had a problem using oil and it doesn't effect my first shot like you state the bore butter does. I used the nasty bore butter at one time but have since thrown it away and use the same oil I do in a centerfire rifle. Funny how gun oil protects centerfire rifles including rifles that shoot corrosive primers like my old Mosin but it's not good enough for a muzzy.
> 
> I clean and dry my muzzy before it's loaded for a hunt then run a lightly oiled patch down the barrel to the bullet just to protect the bore when hunting in the rain and snow, never had a failure to fire.


Because like BP stated, it lowers the chance of misfire. More specifically, oil absorbs into the loose powder it comes in contact with. Centerfire rifles wont have this issue because its powder / primer is separated from the chamber and any oil via the brass case.

Look, I tested this once too. I cleaned and prepped my gun like normal and used oil in the bore. I then loaded it like normal, and let it sit for 24 hours. I then pushed out the load onto a piece of white paper and inspected the powder. There was quite a bit that had turned black from oil contact vs the normal grey of unaffected powder. Did the same test with Borebutter and didnt see and real difference in powder that contacted the bore vs that elsewhere.

Everytime I've had a muzzleloading "what if" I've taken the time to test it. Leaving powder in a charged gun? Tested it ... over 8 months. Submerging a gun to test water penetration? Done that. Tested increasing shot groups from a dirty barrel? Done that. Tested shot groups swabbing a dirty barrel AFTER its been loaded? Done that (followup shot scenario if you get extra time... been there done that). Tested oil vs other lubes? Yep.

Now you can do whatever you want, continue to use oil if it works for you, it makes no difference to me.

BTW: You want the slightest film with bore butter, if you are gooping it on you are doing it very wrong. I take a patch, pull it over my finger and touch the can to get just a bit on the center of the patch. I then work it in with my fingers, then turn the patch OVER, so the backside that was against my finger then comes in contact with the bore, and run that up and down. My current can of Borebutter is now 24 years old and is still 1/3rd full. Probably 1000 shots fired over that time, so that gives an idea of how little is actually needed. I also use my leftover BB patch to wipe down the outside of my guns for storage in the safe. Zero rust on those guns after 30 decades of smoke pole shooting.

-DallanC


----------



## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

I've noticed it too, but with my ML the first shot out of a cold, buttered barrel will be a bit of a flyer and my subsequent shots will be consistent. Do you think that popping a cap into the clean bore will help with that?


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

The main idea of popping a cap before loading a muzzle loader is to clear the flash channel so that the flame can get to the powder and not to burn out any oils or whatever else is in the barrel. Also Bore Butter is non flammable so the only way to get it out is to either swab the bore with a dry patch or shoot it out.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Pumpgunner said:


> I've noticed it too, but with my ML the first shot out of a cold, buttered barrel will be a bit of a flyer and my subsequent shots will be consistent. Do you think that popping a cap into the clean bore will help with that?


Fire a cap in a clean barrel and you end up with a slightly dirty barrel. Those little cheap endoscope's that you can view video on your phone can run down your barrel and show you how much fouling a cap will add to a barrel. Its visually noticable. Remington even had a whole marketing campaign on this, and includes pictures of cap fouling on their Kleanbore primer products:










Going to all the trouble of cleaning a gun to just pop a cap and dirty it up when it might not be necessary is a little odd.

Like Critter said, popping a cap is only to clear out the flame channel. I am meticulous with cleaning a ML prior to the hunt. There is ZERO chance my flame channel is blocked (I visually inspect every part on assembly) so I never pop a cap.

Back to the OP, there is a point of impact shift between a lubed barrel and a non-lubed barrel. The end shooter can decide how he wants to roll, lubbed or dry. I personally lube my barrel with the slightest film of borebutter.

I carry a ziplock bag with a couple patches pre-lubed with a little borebutter, along with a small container of windex and other dry patches for the rare times I have to reload in the field. That assures me a dead on POI.

-DallanC


----------



## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

Well I for one don't want oil or bore butter with my powder, not sure why anyone would. I thought it was common practice to run a wet patch down the bore then a couple dry patches down to clean and dry the barrel before loading any powder. I also clean and dry my breech plug flash channel before loading. My powder is not getting contaminated by anything. There's no need to pop a cap or two before loading if one takes the time to clean the flash channel and visually inspects it to make sure its clear. A small piece of wire or welding tip cleaner works great to poke through the hole to make sure there's no pipe cleaner fuss left in the channel.

Sure seems like a lot of testing when the problem is self induced by having oil or bore butter in the barrel where the powder sets. Clean the oil out of the barrel, load the muzzy and if worried about rust in wet conditions run a lightly and I mean very lightly oiled patch down the barrel to the bullet to protect the barrel above the bullet.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Again, I see a reduction in melt on the sides of my sabots when using a slight film of BB vs not. Perhaps your sabots hold up better. I compare fired sabots side by side out of a slightly lubed vs dry barrel and I see distinct differences.

Differences = not consistent = potential POI shifts.


-DallanC


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

My reasoning of popping a cap goes back to the days when the flash panel was mounted to the side of the barrel and there was no real other way to dry it out. Like I said the habit carried over to my use of an inline. I noticed that one poster mentioned their first round was a flyer and then their groups tightened up. Mentally, I have always viewed popping a cap as a means of fouling the barrel and keeping things consistent. Not sure if it works but it works for me in my head. I really don't doubt what Dallan is saying but I really don't go to that extreme of examining fired sabots, submerging my guns in water or pulling unshot charges to look at the color of powder. I clean my gun, pop a cap, and wipe the outside with Rem oil and throw it in the safe. I have repeated this process for 25 years and the only misfire I have ever had in my life was when a follow up shot out of my Hawken didn't go off. In the excitement of reloading, I inadvertently rammed the ball then dumped the power. I really have no idea in hell what I was thinking. (I was 19 when that happened. Luckily the deer expired without a second shot and I pulled the ball when I got home.. 

My point I guess, is everyone has a different right way of doing things. It might not be right for someone else but it is right for them....


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Wait, you pop a cap then store the rifle? Are we talking a true cap, like #11 or by cap do you mean primer? Modern primers are non-corrosive but not all #11's are. I have a 50cal hawkin barrel on a shelf that got pitted out from being stored this way (was given to me in this condition). I've kept it as I always wanted to bore out the riflings and turn it into a .50 cal shotgun.

I clean rifles then store them. If I felt I needed to "pop a cap", I'd do it before I loaded it to shoot.

I would be really interested to see pictures of your bore from a endoscope. These $5 cameras are very interesting.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Endosco...hash=item2376f62a77:m:mRwYU5sLAK355V4PbqXEGyw

Now when I use my sidelock (I have multiple muzzleloaders) I wash it with soap and water with the breech submerged in a bucket of soapy water. But when that's done, I blow out the barrel with a airgun / compressor to get rid of all moisture.

Finally... and to be fair to the "fouling matters" guys. Some barrels were made overbore with the expectation of being fired out of a fouled barrel. The whole squib load thing is a result of this. This primarily is for roundball barrels (1:66, 1:72 etc) but some White barrels were overbore and they recommended a squib load to foul it and "tighten up" the projectile in the barrel. White had an interesting history in their barrel making... they were always trying new things.

Thank god most mfg's have given up on the overbore and weird caliber sizes (52cal?!?? lolz) and we have mostly standardized barrel bore diameters.

-DallanC


----------



## plottrunner (Apr 3, 2008)

When I used my Hawken, yes I cleaned it and then popped a cap to dry it. My Hawken now hangs on the wall and I call it art and have no desire to shoot the heavy SOB so any pitting is irrelevant to me. Now I use a can of dust off to dry my inline breech plug before putting it away for the season and I also run a Rem oil patch down the barrel but before I load it, I pop a 209 primer through it to foul the barrel. Like I said, not sure this necessary but I do it anyway and by doing this, the oil in the barrel problem you mentioned is now null and void. 

I agree with the overbore statement. Had a buddy with a 52 cal knight. Talk about a pain in the butt to find supplies for.


----------



## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

All I have ever done with my side lock muzzle loaders is to remove the nipple when cleaning in very hot/boiling hot water and Pinesol. I like the Pinesol just for the smell. By the time i was done the barrel was so hot that you had a hard time holding onto it with your bare hands and any water that was on it evaporated very quickly. Then once they were clean I would swab the bore with some T/C bore butter and use a welding torch cleaner to clean out the nipple hole into the barrel, clean the nipple and reinstall it and put the rifle away until the next shooting session. 

I wouldn't pop a #11 cap again on it until I was ready to load it back up to go shooting. The barrels still look brand new inside of them.


----------



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Critter said:


> All I have ever done with my side lock muzzle loaders is to remove the nipple when cleaning in very hot/boiling hot water and Pinesol. I like the Pinesol just for the smell. By the time i was done the barrel was so hot that you had a hard time holding onto it with your bare hands and any water that was on it evaporated very quickly. Then once they were clean I would swab the bore with some T/C bore butter and use a welding torch cleaner to clean out the nipple hole into the barrel, clean the nipple and reinstall it and put the rifle away until the next shooting session.
> 
> I wouldn't pop a #11 cap again on it until I was ready to load it back up to go shooting. The barrels still look brand new inside of them.


This is the exact correct way to clean/prepare to store a ML. I've always used real black powder in my ML shotguns and BP requires proper cleaning practices.


----------



## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Again, I see a reduction in melt on the sides of my sabots when using a slight film of BB vs not. Perhaps your sabots hold up better. I compare fired sabots side by side out of a slightly lubed vs dry barrel and I see distinct differences.
> 
> Differences = not consistent = potential POI shifts.
> 
> -DallanC


I don't see any melt on the Harvester sabot after being shot, in fact the only difference I see between a new and shot sabot is the petal position. I'm surprised the sides of any sabot have time to melt in the short time it takes them to leave the barrel. Wonder if your getting gas blow by melting the sabot?


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

*ALL* projectiles get gas blow by. Even centerfire rifles and pistols. Every high speed footage of a gun firing shows this.


-DallanC


----------



## muddydogs (Oct 7, 2007)

DallanC said:


> *ALL* projectiles get gas blow by. Even centerfire rifles and pistols. Every high speed footage of a gun firing shows this.
> 
> -DallanC


Yes they do but if you are getting melt on sabots I would say you are getting way more then you should. I have picked up 100's of sabots at the range from who knows how many muzzys and I have never seen melted sabots.


----------



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I think we differ in what I mean by melted. They aren't totally melted, but very rough streaking down the sides like they've been sanded by 40grit. I dont see that on my other sabots, those usually still have some glossy shine on the sides.

Maybe next time out I'll shoot some both ways and post some pictures.

-DallanC


----------



## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

DallanC said:


> Fire a cap in a clean barrel and you end up with a slightly dirty barrel. Those little cheap endoscope's that you can view video on your phone can run down your barrel and show you how much fouling a cap will add to a barrel. Its visually noticable. Remington even had a whole marketing campaign on this, and includes pictures of cap fouling on their Kleanbore primer products:
> 
> -DallanC


I do this but I put a patch on the end of my ramrod and leave it shoved up against my breech plug when I pop the primer. This shoots all the gunk into the patch rather than into your barrel.


----------



## Raptor1 (Feb 1, 2015)

After getting it sighted in I clean it good and on the way to the hunt pull over somewhere and put a round through it to dirty it up. I have noticed for me a clean barrel definitely acts differently than a dirty one and get better groupings when the barrel is dirty. I haven't tried just putting a cap in it, so don't know how that would affect it vs a round.


----------

