# Cactus Bucks



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

How many have you seen?
Where? General region.
When? Approximate year.
Approximate size?
Thanks!


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I think it was called tea cup dome or something i honestly cant remember. It was in Wyoming at an oil field. Antelope were rutting so im guessing September? It was about 7 years ago and the buck had big bases with quite a few points and knobs sticking out if it. 

I also say another one north of brigham city about 5 years ago. This buck had a big velvet rack with multiple points. There was snow on the ground so im guessing it was around christmas.


----------



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

My brother shot one in Huntsville several years ago. Originally thought it was a spike, but on closer inspection it had long spike horns, still in velvet and flexible...lots of lumps and bumps at the bases.

The deer was huge too. Like a big, fat doe with weird horns. This would have been late October during the general deer hunt.


----------



## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

I have seen 3 on the zion unit in the last 2 years and probably 70 (maybe more)on the paunsaugunt in the last 4 or 5 years. For some reason there is alot of them on the paunsaugunt. All but two have had small odd looking antlers. I saw the biggest one in Oct/2011 on the pauns and was able to get some decent pics of him.


----------



## huntinfanatic (Aug 3, 2012)

This my first time trying to post pics on here so hopefully it works. The first two pics are of the biggest one I've seen and the last pic is of one from the west side of the zion unit.


----------



## muleymadness (Jan 23, 2008)

Seen lots also on the Pauns. Mostly ugly/smaller guys. But do have pics of several with a couple being BIG boys.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

muleymadness said:


> Seen lots also on the Pauns. Mostly ugly/smaller guys. But do have pics of several with a couple being BIG boys.


What's the time frame/s?


----------



## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

What are you thinking LT?

Its always been my understanding its bucks with no nuts that grows them. At least thats what they say in the deer videos ive seen. Some how it seems like there has always been more down in southern utah.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

SW,,,,Obviouly LT is trying to link catcus bucks to radiation fallout

Seriuosly, I've seen more catus bucks on the Paunsy and on the Bookcliffs
than the whole rest of the state put together.........


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

swbuckmaster said:


> What are you thinking LT?
> 
> Its always been my understanding its bucks with no nuts that grows them. At least thats what they say in the deer videos ive seen. Some how it seems like there has always been more down in southern utah.


So cryptorchidism, is the condition by which, the testes do not descend externally into the scrotum. There are varying degrees of this, but if they do not descend fully, the heat from within the abdomen, kills them. With out testicles, the deer produce no testosterone, and they end up keeping their velvet and antlers all year long. Increased production of testosterone, triggered by shorter days in the fall, cause a deer to cut the blood supply to the velvet, and finish mineralizing and hardening, the antler. This condition is not isolated to deer, it can occur in all mammals. Many believe that it is hereditary, and therefor passed on genetically. While others attribute it to other causes. Others(whom I agree with) believe it might vary well be genetic, but only presents when other conditions trigger it.

It seemed to me like there have been more sightings, and reports of Cactus bucks in the last few years. Thinking back to the last time I saw them in any number was the early '90s in Northern Utah. One particular canyon had always had some, going back into the early '70s(my uncles accounts). But in the early '90s there were a lot of them there, all ages, and sizes. But not much of anything since then, until a few years ago, when it seemed like people were seeing more of them.

That is why I am interested in the timeframe, in which people are seeing them.


----------



## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

When the Bookcliffs reopened to LE deer hunting in 2000, 
There were a good number on velvet/catus bucks for a few
years. I was there several years in a row guiding deer hunts.
Saw them every year ....

I also saw the exact same thing muleym saw on the Paunsy ...


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> So cryptorchidism, is the condition by which, the testes do not descend externally into the scrotum. There are varying degrees of this, but if they do not descend fully, the heat from within the abdomen, kills them. With out testicles, the deer produce no testosterone,


Not exactly. Mammals that are bilaterally cryptorchid (both testicles in abdomen) generally* DO* produce plenty of testosterone. And the testicles are virtually never "destroyed" by the abdominal heat. The abdominal heat *DOES *kill any sperm cells produced in such a testicle, so such animals are sterile. If the animal has one normal and one abnormal testicle, then they can breed normally (from the one normal testicle.) Most cryptorchid patients are this way (unilateral), meaning that one testicle is normal and one in an abnormal position.

The case that crytorchidism is genetic is quite strong in dogs and swine, so it is reasonable to assume that it is also so in deer, if it is occurring.

While your thesis that the cactus bucks are testosterone deficient from cryptorchidism is almost certainly false, here is a mechanism that could explain it. Cryptorchid testicles in dogs have a high rate of becoming cancerous. The cancers that strike these victims often produce *estrogen *and thus result in a feminizing syndrome in the male patients. It could be that these cactus bucks have testicular tumors that are resulting in feminization syndromes that are interfering with normal antler development? Maybe old deer, whether they are cryptorchid or not, develop testicular tumors at a high rate? It is curious that they mostly show up in LE areas where many bucks live to a ripe old age, don't you think?

There, all ya wanted to know about cryptorchidism and testicular cancer in animals. Carry on.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Catherder said:


> Not exactly. Mammals that are bilaterally cryptorchid (both testicles in abdomen) generally* DO* produce plenty of testosterone. And the testicles are virtually never "destroyed" by the abdominal heat. The abdominal heat *DOES *kill any sperm cells produced in such a testicle, so such animals are sterile. If the animal has one normal and one abnormal testicle, then they can breed normally (from the one normal testicle.) Most cryptorchid patients are this way (unilateral), meaning that one testicle is normal and one in an abnormal position.
> 
> The case that crytorchidism is genetic is quite strong in dogs and swine, so it is reasonable to assume that it is also so in deer, if it is occurring.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification on the testicles not being killed. I reread the particular piece where I got that, and definitely got it wrong. So yes, they are still there, but because of the heat in the abdomen, it kills the sperm

But cryptorchidism most certainly causes testosterone deficiency. Which is why the velvet is not shed. It is the elevation in testosterone level, triggered by shorter days, that triggers the blood flow to be cut, and the velvet to shed. All around the same time, that bucks and does start to put on weight. Also driven by hormonal changes.

As for LE areas, what makes them what they are? Hunter regulation, or the conditions of the unit? My experience with cactus bucks, does not include LE areas.

And while probably genetic, the way in which it presents, sometimes in large numbers, and then disappears, in multiple places, separated by large distances, there seems to be an external trigger.


----------



## Uni (Dec 5, 2010)

A cactus buck is on my list. If I could get one of those and a buck with a nice drop tine, I will die a very happy man.


----------



## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

I know of sheep herders who would castrate buck fawns. Just another possible cause for seeing cactus bucks in specific areas. Some cactus bucks do shed their antlers, usually later than other bucks, but don't shed their velvet. I have seen cactus bucks in Alpine, on the Nebo, the Vernon, the Book Cliffs, and Chalk Creek-- Nov-April. I have cactus bucks come into my shop from around the state.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Uni said:


> A cactus buck is on my list. If I could get one of those and a buck with a nice drop tine, I will die a very happy man.


Right now may be the time, looks like they have been increasing across the West for a decade, with a large increase in the last few years.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Packout said:


> I know of sheep herders who would castrate buck fawns. Just another possible cause for seeing cactus bucks in specific areas. Some cactus bucks do shed their antlers, usually later than other bucks, but don't shed their velvet. I have seen cactus bucks in Alpine, on the Nebo, the Vernon, the Book Cliffs, and Chalk Creek-- Nov-April. I have cactus bucks come into my shop from around the state.


I should have clarified what time scale I was interested in. What year approximately?


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> But cryptorchidism most certainly causes testosterone deficiency. Which is why the velvet is not shed. It is the elevation in testosterone level, triggered by shorter days, that triggers the blood flow to be cut, and the velvet to shed. All around the same time, that bucks and does start to put on weight. Also driven by hormonal changes.


Not necessarily true. Cryptorchid testicles *still *produce testosterone. Cats that are bilaterally abdominally cryptorchid are able to show *every* male trait seen in a normal male cat. And most of the animals affected will be unilateral cryptorchids, which have one completely normal testicle and thus will be producing normally there. While it could be a factor in a few rare cases, asserting that cryptorchidism is a major significant cause of antler abnormality in male deer is pure speculation on your part and is *not *supported by the body of veterinary literature.

An example: Effect of cryptorchidism in the ram: changes in the concentrations of testosterone and estradiol and receptors for LH and FSH in the testis, and its histology 
Mol Cell Endocrinol. September 1982;28(1):13-25. 
B Barenton; M R Blanc; A Caraty; M T Hochereau-de Reviers; C Perreau; J Saumande

 
T*he estimated ratio of testosterone per Leydig cell was higher in cryptorchid animals than in controls, suggesting that, despite their reduction in number and the decrease of LH receptors, the Leydig cells of cryptorchid rams have an enhanced steroidogenic capacity.*



Look, not that it is news to those that know, but you are correct that hormonal dysfunction is a main cause of antler abnormality. However, dysfunction in multiple sites on the body can cause hormonal problems. Testicular or ovarian tumors or disease, adrenal problems, pituitary gland abnormalities, trauma (probably the most common), or bored sheepherders as Packout mentioned can *all *potentially cause abnormal antler growth. Narrowing it down to just one variable without strong supporting evidence is just speculation and doesn't really accomplish much.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Catherder said:


> Not necessarily true. Cryptorchid testicles *still *produce testosterone. Cats that are bilaterally abdominally cryptorchid are able to show *every* male trait seen in a normal male cat. And most of the animals affected will be unilateral cryptorchids, which have one completely normal testicle and thus will be producing normally there. While it could be a factor in a few rare cases, asserting that cryptorchidism is a major significant cause of antler abnormality in male deer is pure speculation on your part and is *not *supported by the body of veterinary literature.
> 
> An example: Effect of cryptorchidism in the ram: changes in the concentrations of testosterone and estradiol and receptors for LH and FSH in the testis, and its histology
> Mol Cell Endocrinol. September 1982;28(1):13-25.
> ...


This has already been tested and proven. Male cactus bucks are all cryptorchid, with testicles that have not descended. The veterinary literature bears this out, go look it up your self, most of it was done in Texas. We are not talking about general antler abnormalities, but the specific cases where cryptorchidism, causes reduced testosterone, which prevents the velvet from being shed. In tests, testosterone has been injected into cactus bucks, and as a result, blood flow was cut to the velvet, and it was shed. Usually it was shed before the blood flow was completely cut. Young bucks and older bucks are the last to shed their horns, this is because they tend to have lower testosterone, than bucks in their prime. Testosterone, has a lot to do with antler development, at a minimum the timing of.

This condition, genetic as it is, is not going to spontaneously erupt across the West, by itself. A bunch of sheep herders are not going to simultaneously increase their castration of deer fawns, all while the deer suddenly get clumsy, all at the same time. The occurrence is what is interesting here.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Furthermore, yes, some cryptorchid animals can breed, and have high enough testosterone to function. This is not the case with cactus bucks, it is very obvious, as they are presenting with the most extreme affects, that is what causes them to be cactus bucks. Your argument is circular.


----------



## muleymadness (Jan 23, 2008)

Lonetree, 

I've seen them EVERY year for the past 10 years in a row that I've been looking/scouting more regularly in June-August. I'll can almost guarantee I'll see some this summer also, some are the same bucks from previous years.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I started getting into deer hunting more seriously in the late 80's. At that time I saw a few cactus bucks on Pine Valley Mnt., also on the Pauns. They seemed to be in just certain areas. I have been seeing a few in the last couple years in the Central Region. Again, mainly in one or two canyons. I wonder if it's a genetic problem that a few does are producing. It would be interesting to know if some of these cactus bucks are coming from the same doe.
Another thing that I've noticed about cactus bucks. Is that they all seem to have the same different look to them. Like a person with Down's syndrome. The bucks are usually lacking the dark patch on their forehead and tend to have a light colored ring around their eyes.


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Here's a few cactus bucks I've taken pictures of or got on a trail cam.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

One more on this.

1. RE"Furthermore, yes, some cryptorchid animals can breed, and have high enough testosterone to function. "

Only unilateral cryptorchid bucks can breed, bilateral cryptorchid bucks cannot.

2. RE"Male cactus bucks are all cryptorchid, with testicles that have not descended. The veterinary literature bears this out, go look it up your self, most of it was done in Texas. "

Actually, the veterinary scientific literature talks almost exclusively about abnormal antler growth after castration and it is well known that if you castrate a male deer you will get abnormal antler growth. The references you are citing are from popular hunting literature and are repeated from the original Texas write up. I also found additional references in the popular lit about testicular trauma causing the same effects. I will still assert that abnormal antler growth is caused by multiple factors and not just cryptorchidism. I do see your reasoning however, in reviewing what was written by the Texas people.

Anyway, that said, now, how about some interesting stuff I found that I think will interest you. It interested me.

Testis and antler dysgenesis in sitka black-tailed deer on Kodiak Island, Alaska: Sequela of environmental endocrine disruption? 
Environ Health Perspect. April 2006;114 Suppl 1(0):51-9.

Abstract.
It had been observed that many male Sitka black-tailed deer (Odocoileus hemionus sitkensis) on Kodiak Island, Alaska, had abnormal antlers, were cryptorchid, and presented no evidence of hypospadias. We sought to better understand the problem and investigated 171 male deer for phenotypic aberrations and 12 for detailed testicular histopathology. For the low-lying Aliulik Peninsula (AP), 61 of 94 deer were bilateral cryptorchids (BCOs); 70% of these had abnormal antlers. Elsewhere on the Kodiak Archipelago, only 5 of 65 deer were BCOs. *All 11 abdominal testes examined had no spermatogenesis but contained abnormalities including carcinoma in situ-like cells, possible precursors of seminoma; Sertoli cell, Leydig cell, and stromal cell tumors; carcinoma and adenoma of rete testis; and microlithiasis or calcifications. *Cysts also were evident within the excurrent ducts. Two of 10 scrotal testes contained similar abnormalities, although spermatogenesis was ongoing. We cannot rule out that these abnormalities are linked sequelae of a mutation(s) in a founder animal, followed by transmission over many years and causing high prevalence only on the AP. However, based on lesions observed, *we hypothesize that it is more likely that this testis-antler dysgenesis resulted from continuing exposure of pregnant females to an estrogenic environmental agent(s), thereby transforming testicular cells, affecting development of primordial antler pedicles, and blocking transabdominal descent of fetal testes. A browse (e.g., kelp) favored by deer in this locale might carry the putative estrogenic agent(s).*

Highlights.

1. A cluster of cryptorchid, and abnormally developed deer was seen in Alaska and studied.

2. ALL the cryptorchid testicles had multiple cancerous or precancerous conditions in them. (where did you hear that before?)

3. Most importantly IMO, the researchers felt that the cause of the abnormal male development was caused by the mothers of these deer eating browse that contained an estrogenic environmental agent. In this case, possibly kelp.

Take home. If above is true, and we see a "cluster" of cactus bucks in a given area, it is possible that the does are eating or are being exposed to estrogenic agents during their pregnancy and thus delivering abnormal bucks. The source of the abnormal estrogen can be natural, as in this case or possibly human caused.

Tell you what, shoot one of these guys and I'll help you necropsy it and send tissue samples to competent pathologists if you really want to pursue this.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> I started getting into deer hunting more seriously in the late 80's. At that time I saw a few cactus bucks on Pine Valley Mnt., also on the Pauns. They seemed to be in just certain areas. I have been seeing a few in the last couple years in the Central Region. Again, mainly in one or two canyons. I wonder if it's a genetic problem that a few does are producing. It would be interesting to know if some of these cactus bucks are coming from the same doe.
> Another thing that I've noticed about cactus bucks. Is that they all seem to have the same different look to them. Like a person with Down's syndrome. The bucks are usually lacking the dark patch on their forehead and tend to have a light colored ring around their eyes.


Yeah, they seem to show up in clusters, from Alaska to Nebraska. And the timing is very interesting. They have been showing up with greater frequency, all of the West. Increases began after 1990, dropped of in the mid 2000s, and have increased since 2007.

This occurs while the fetus is developing, towards the end of gestation. So it would be very interesting to see if the same does are producing them over and over again, or if many does are producing them at the same time. Or a combination of both.

You just blew my mind with your observations about their faces. That was like a sales pitch, for the collective unconscious. I am reading, what I think is some related work on Brachygnathia superior, right now. This is the "underdevelopment of the premaxillary bone, and other facial bones". This also occurs during the development of the fetus, and the time frame of occurrences, have some scarily similar time frames. First showed up in '95, peaked out in '01, went down to '06, and has been increasing since 2007.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Catherder said:


> One more on this.
> 
> 1. RE"Furthermore, yes, some cryptorchid animals can breed, and have high enough testosterone to function. "
> 
> ...


:grin: I would love to help with a necropsy. And I really like your digging on this, we have covered some of the same ground for sure.

So what blocks estrogen receptors, from endocrine disrupting estrogen?


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Lonetree said:


> Yeah, they seem to show up in clusters, from Alaska to Nebraska. And the timing is very interesting. They have been showing up with greater frequency, all of the West. Increases began after 1990, dropped of in the mid 2000s, and have increased since 2007.
> 
> This occurs while the fetus is developing, towards the end of gestation. So it would be very interesting to see if the same does are producing them over and over again, or if many does are producing them at the same time. Or a combination of both.
> 
> You just blew my mind with your observations about their faces. That was like a sales pitch, for the collective unconscious. I am reading, what I think is some related work on Brachygnathia superior, right now. This is the "underdevelopment of the premaxillary bone, and other facial bones". This also occurs during the development of the fetus, and the time frame of occurrences, have some scarily similar time frames. First showed up in '95, peaked out in '01, went down to '06, and has been increasing since 2007.


There is a study from Montana that studied B. superior found not only in mule deer, but also whitetail deer, antelope, elk and bighorn sheep. But I bet you already know that. And yeah, the timing is eerily scary.


----------



## stillhunterman (Feb 15, 2009)

Lonetree said:


> :grin: I would love to help with a necropsy. And I really like your digging on this, we have covered some of the same ground for sure.
> 
> *So what blocks estrogen receptors, from endocrine disrupting estrogen*?


So, you wouldn't be talking about phenolic compounds that are pretty common among petrochemical derivatives, which have been polluting the environment for...how long now? If not, then you might be interested in that phenomenon. ;-)


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

RE"So what blocks estrogen receptors, from endocrine disrupting estrogen?"

It certainly is possible and cannot be ruled out that it is a receptor based problem as Stillhunterman suggested, however the way the researchers in the Alaska study phrased their conclusion would suggest that the mothers of the affected deer were exposed to an estrogen overdose from what they were eating or exposed to. Their phrase was "continuing exposure of pregnant females to an estrogenic environmental agent(s)". Apparently, the high estrogen levels resulted in disruption of the normal sequence of events that occurs for a male fetus to develop normal male traits, such as having the testicles descend.

In nature, there are possible sources of this. Many plants contain what are called phytoestrogens, which are estrogen like or estrus producing chemicals. Even rarer, but present are plants that actually produce estriol identical to animal estriol. (Interestingly, the pomegranate is one of these.)

http://www.greenbush.net/morthanyouev.html

Toxicity in livestock is a described phenomenon.

http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/isoflav.html

Also, there are molds that produce estrogenic compounds that have been shown to be toxic to livestock.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/toxicology/mycotoxicoses/estrogenism_and_vulvovaginitis.html

So maybe our clusters of cactus bucks could simply be a result from their moms eating excessive amounts of certain estrogenic plants or molds? There certainly isn't enough there to say authoritatively though.

One more area of interest is the phenomenon seen in fish where male fish have been found to be developing female features. The jury is still out as to why or even if it a new phenomenon, but conjecture is that it may be due to low levels of birth control hormones or hormone supplements released into the water from human urine. I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the years to come.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Glutathione Peroxidase function is what protects the body from excessive estrogen. It also plays a role in DNA synthesis and repair, and the metabolism of toxins and carcinogens.

So estrogen is believed to be the cause of the Sitka black tailed deer, cryptordhidism, but that is not actually explored. If estrogen, a endocrine disruptor, is the cause. Then we have to ask, is it a natural source, or is it an introduced source? Either way, the population seems to be overwhelmed by it. So do they not have the means to defend against the estrogen?

Here is some more information, about the brachygnathia superior incidences, that stillhunterman and I, were referring to.

http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/...ished-on-developmental-malformations-in-deer/

http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/06/01/study-validates-concerns-about-chlorothalonil/

This involves cryptorchidism also, along with other abnormalities. But they have zeroed in on a different potential endocrine disruptor. Pay attention to the dates, as they relate to mule deer declines, and the occurrences of cryptorchidism through out the West.

I am not looking to wait around and hear more, about more of any of this.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Glutathione Peroxidase function is what protects the body from excessive estrogen. It also plays a role in DNA synthesis/repair, and the metabolism of toxins and carcinogens.

So estrogen is believed to be the cause of the Sitka black tailed deer, cryptordhidism, but that is not actually explored. If estrogen, a endocrine disruptor, is the cause. Then we have to ask, is it a natural source, or is it an introduced source? Either way, the population seems to be overwhelmed by it. So do they not have the means to defend against the estrogen?

Here is some more information, about the brachygnathia superior incidences, that stillhunterman and I, were referring to.

http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/11/02/local-study-published-on-developmental-malformations-in-deer/

http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/06/01/study-validates-concerns-about-chlorothalonil/

This involves cryptorchidism also, along with other abnormalities. But they have zeroed in on a different endocrine disruptor. Pay attention to the dates, as they relate to mule deer declines, and the occurrences of cryptorchidism through out the West.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Glutathione Peroxidase function is what protects the body from excessive estrogen. It also plays a role in DNA synthesis and repair, and the metabolism of toxins and carcinogens.

So estrogen is believed to be the cause of the Sitka black tailed deer, cryptordhidism, but that is not actually explored. If estrogen, a endocrine disruptor, is the cause. Then we have to ask, is it a natural source, or is it an introduced source? Either way, the population seems to be overwhelmed by it. So do they not have the means to defend against the estrogen?

Here is some more information, about the brachygnathia superior incidences, that stillhunterman and I, were referring to.

http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/11/02/local-study-published-on-developmental-malformations-in-deer/

http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/06/01/study-validates-concerns-about-chlorothalonil/

This involves cryptorchidism also, along with other abnormalities. But they have zeroed in on a different endocrine disruptor. Pay attention to the dates, as they relate to mule deer declines, and the occurrences of cryptorchidism through out the West. My thinking on this, is this only part of the story.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Glutathione Peroxidase function is what protects the body from excessive estrogen. It also plays a role in DNA synthesis and repair, and the metabolism of toxins and carcinogens.

So estrogen is believed to be the cause of the Sitka black tailed deer, cryptordhidism, but that is not actually explored. If estrogen, a endocrine disruptor, is the cause. Then we have to ask, is it a natural source, or is it an introduced source? Either way, the population seems to be overwhelmed by it. So do they not have the means to defend against the estrogen?

Here is some more information, about the brachygnathia superior incidences, that stillhunterman and I, were referring to.

http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/11/02/local-study-published-on-developmental-malformations-in-deer/

http://www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/06/01/study-validates-concerns-about-chlorothalonil/

This involves cryptorchidism also, along with other abnormalities. But they have zeroed in on a different endocrine disruptor. Pay attention to the dates, as they relate to mule deer declines, and the occurrences of cryptorchidism through out the West.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Glutathione Peroxidase function is what protects the body from excessive estrogen. It also plays a role in DNA synthesis and repair, and the metabolism of toxins and carcinogens.

So estrogen is believed to be the cause of the Sitka black tailed deer, cryptordhidism, but that is not actually explored. If estrogen, a endocrine disruptor, is the cause. Then we have to ask, is it a natural source, or is it an introduced source? Either way, the population seems to be overwhelmed by it. So do they not have the means to defend against the estrogen?

Here is some more information, about the brachygnathia superior incidences, that stillhunterman and I, were referring to.

www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/11/02/local-study-published-on-developmental-malformations-in-deer/

www.bitterrootstar.com/2011/06/01/study-validates-concerns-about-chlorothalonil/

This involves cryptorchidism also, along with other abnormalities. But they have zeroed in on a different endocrine disruptor. Pay attention to the dates, as they relate to mule deer declines, and the occurrences of cryptorchidism through out the West.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Lonetree said:


> So estrogen is believed to be the cause of the Sitka black tailed deer, cryptordhidism, but that is not actually explored. If estrogen, a endocrine disruptor, is the cause. Then we have to ask, is it a natural source, or is it an introduced source? Either way, the population seems to be overwhelmed by it. So do they not have the means to defend against the estrogen?


I'll try to answer each aspect. Forgive me if I misunderstood what you may be asking.

1. "If estrogen, a endocrine disruptor, is the cause."

Estrogens are a family of hormones that are not what medicine would consider an "endocrine disruptor", but a normal hormone with several important functions in normal females. Estradiol is the predominant form in non-pregnant, reproductive females that primarily aids in the cyclic release of eggs from the ovaries (ovulation). They are also key in development of the secondary sexual characteristics of females. However, just like all other known hormones, there can be toxicity if there is too much present. Estrogen toxicity is well known in both veterinary and human medicine. The worst is bone marrow destruction, but other problems are seen in affected individuals. Males exposed to high estrogen from cancer, or other causes develop secondary female traits, like developed mammary glands. (A couple of your cryptorchid bucks reported this, and I almost guarantee it is from a testicular tumor called sertoli cell tumor) Finally, abnormally high levels of estrogen in a *male* fetus during certain periods of development will mess up the normal fetal development that causes males to have normal male characteristics. This is what appears to be happening to the Alaska bucks.

2. " is it a natural source, or is it an introduced source? "

As my previous post explained, there are many *natural* sources of estrogen or estrogen like agents in plants and molds. This is very likely the source. The Alaska researchers specifically mentioned kelp.

3. " the population seems to be overwhelmed by it. So do they not have the means to defend against the estrogen? "

There are several examples of livestock eating plants that cause birth defects or abortions. For instance, sheep eating skunk cabbage (veratrum) will develop offspring that have one eye, huge heads, and they don't survive. Yes, they are called cyclops lambs. Usually, this happens because the animals are forced to graze on plants that are not desirable because their preferred feed is scarce or gone. It could very well be the same in deer. Perhaps in the Alaska example, the deer are forced to eat kelp because their preferred browse is depleted. So if the habitat and regular browse is improved in these areas, the does will stop eating the toxic plants, and the problem will be resolved.

All that said, as I explained earlier, researchers are looking at human source estrogens as a pollutant and toxicant too.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

External estrogen, and substances that mimic estrogen, are endocrine disruptors. They disrupt endocrine function.


I am not disputing the proposed cause/s. In the case of the Sitka deer, it is proposed to be estrogen, possibly from kelp. They also mention contaminated fog as another potential source of contaminates. So they are speculating, much as I am. In Montana, it is proposed to be chemical fungicide. And we do not have proposed endocrine disruptors, for all of the other cases, in other states. Where you were very apt, early on, to dismiss as sheep herders “having fun”. I am looking at the fact that these incidences tend to be clumped, and are synchronized across multiple places in time. Historically speaking, the first cases seem to pop up in the '60s, I have seen some of these examples. And then you have synched occurrences in the 90s, with declining events, and now we have increasing incidences.


Both the Kodiak study, and the Montana study, also make the correlation to birds. 


Deer eat kelp, the fact that coastal (CA, OR, and WA) black tailed deer have been cut off from the coast, has been proposed as a limiting factor in their populations. Same with Patagonian Huemel, and just the inverse for Tiburon island mule deer. Coastal black tailed deer, specifically seek out kelp, because of its nutrient content. So improving some perceived lack of other forage, is not going to resolve the “problem”.


Glutathione Peroxidase(GPx) Protects the body from excessive estrogen, toxins, carcinogens, and heavy metals. I like how you avoided this. With multiple proposed causes, in several different locations, is it not possible that an underlying cause, of a lack of defense, is the root problem? Although given the synchronization of these affected animals, maybe, a lack of defense, is yet just one more symptom, of a greater cause? An enviromental cascade, affecting removed populations, over a very large area. Gotta start looking in Norway, that is always the next step at this point.


Glutathione Peroxidase has been shown to protect Leydig, and Sertoli cells, from oxidative stress.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Catherder,


So regardless of the current tumors, seen in cryptorchid bucks on Kodiak, crytorchidism is still regarded as a genetic disease, with its onset occurring during fetal deveopment. You agreed with this in one of your original posts(that it is genetic), where you then questioned whether cryptorchidism was occurring. Now, you are in full agreement, that it is an external endocrine disruptor, such as estrogen, that is causing it. That is essentially my original argument, that it is a genetic disorder, that is being triggered by external conditions. So I am glad to see we agree.


Given that it is a genetic disorder, and that it affects very particular fetal development of the testis. We should be able to pin down a window, in which a foreign trigger, such as estrogen, or whatever, is affecting development of the fetus. Then specific enviromental factors can be checked, at this particular window in time, to see what is possibly present. Example: If deer rut the first of December, and gestation is ~200 days. Then we look to a point in time, when the reproductive development of the deer fetus, can be disrupted. Is this mid winter, early spring, late spring, etc. 


If there is a foreign cause, then has it always persisted in the enviroment, or is new? If it is naturally occurring, as you have suggested, why is it a problem now? Is it a matter of not being able to defend against these foreign influences, or is it even the compounding affect, of foreign influences, coupled with weakened defenses? Being that it is believed to be a genetic disease, a trigger for this would need to affect RNA and DNA. Glutathione Peroxidase has been shown to protect DNA, and RNA from such oxidative damage.


A lot of attention is being paid to these crytorchid bucks, and the affects on them. But little has been done, in the way of looking at the does that produce these bucks, and what is driving it.


----------



## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

1. RE "External estrogen, and substances that mimic estrogen, are endocrine disruptors. They disrupt endocrine function."

potato-patato, on the definitions;-), but it does sound like you understand how it works, so we're on the same page.

2. RE" crytorchidism is still regarded as a genetic disease, with its onset occurring during fetal deveopment. You agreed with this in one of your original posts(that it is genetic), where you then questioned whether cryptorchidism was occurring."

Time for more definitions. Cryptorchidism can indeed be a genetic disease and that is what we see most of the time. What happens in these cases is that the genes the male gets from its parents are "messed up" somehow and causes the victim to not develop normally. If he has one normal testicle and can breed, he will pass these genes on to the offspring and perpetuate the trait/problem. If you see a *solitary* cryptorchid dog or cat, a person, or the rare cryptorchid buck on the mountain, it is probably in this category.

However, your *cluster* of cryptorchid and/or messed up bucks like Alaska ones would probably be classified as a *developmental disorder.* In these cases, the genetics of the fetuses are normal. They would have grown up normally, however in fetal development, they are doused with an external toxic dose of estrogen at a critical time. They still may look externally like a patient that has pure genetic disease, but the root cause is very different. Also, the affected males, if they had one normal testicle and could breed, would have normal offspring because their genetics are fine. Now, you can also have a cluster of an abnormality from a pure genetic cause too if a well bred ancestor passes on a trait in a small population, (called "founder effect"), but in the Alaska case, the researchers felt this was unlikely.

RE" We should be able to pin down a window, in which a foreign trigger, such as estrogen, or whatever, is affecting development of the fetus. Then specific enviromental factors can be checked, at this particular window in time, to see what is possibly present. Example: If deer rut the first of December, and gestation is ~200 days. Then we look to a point in time, when the reproductive development of the deer fetus, can be disrupted. Is this mid winter, early spring, late spring, etc. "

This is exactly correct. I don't have time to look it up, but someone probably already has worked out when different stages occur for deer gestation, including in the case of the Alaska bucks, normal testicular/male development.

3. RE"If there is a foreign cause, then has it always persisted in the enviroment, or is new? If it is naturally occurring, as you have suggested, why is it a problem now?

I don't know. However, we can extrapolate from experience with livestock that developmental disorders from plant toxins are not new or previously unheard of, and that in their cases, it usually tends to be from the victims not being able to graze on more preferred browse/feed. If estrogen producing plants and molds are the cause of cluster defects in bucks, then we do know that they are indeed present in nature. So it could just be boring old "bad habitat" as the root. However, until it is proven to be the case, a more exotic cause also cannot be ruled out.

It sounds like a heckuva good PHD project for a biology grad student.

This will likely be my last post on this for a while. I'll be slogging through Wyoming the rest of the week, looking for cryptorchid antelope. ;-)


----------



## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Lonetree and Catherder; can you guys get a room?


:smile:


great post


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

Not a lot of information on deer fetal development. The masculinization window appears to be ~May(in this part of the world), late in gestation, around the same time the pedicle develops. Which kind of makes sense given some the affects of its disruption. 

Even I was a little surprised at the May timeframe, it ties into a lot of other things, from moose, to bighorns.


----------



## JHas (Nov 21, 2007)

Would it be just as important to know where folks are not seeing these bucks? I have hunted the Wasatch Front exclusively for the past 35 years and I am in specific canyons just about on a daily basis and I have never seen a cactus buck. I have a lot of friends that also hunt the front and I cannot remember anyone ever seeing a cactus buck.


----------



## muleymadness (Jan 23, 2008)

Just got an trail cam one of the ugliest, nastiest, and saddest looking cactus bucks I've ever seen. It's a sight to behold. So. Utah


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

muleymadness said:


> Just got an trail cam one of the ugliest, nastiest, and saddest looking cactus bucks I've ever seen. It's a sight to behold. So. Utah


let's see pictures of that ugly sucker.


----------



## muleymadness (Jan 23, 2008)

Since I like you Ridge...  ha

Here ya go, thoughts on this fellow guys?

One of the craziest bucks I've seen. Completely covered, therefore blind in right eye and if it keeps growing could be same result in left eye. Crazy stuff I tell ya!


----------



## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

Looks like to me that buck has a disease. Look how skinny it is. I'm guessing it will be dead by winter.


----------



## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I'm sorry but that is one ugly buck! Someone should put that poor thing out of it's misery.


----------



## Lonetree (Dec 4, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> Looks like to me that buck has a disease. Look how skinny it is. I'm guessing it will be dead by winter.


He probably does, they tend to have compromised immune systems.

Reminds me of a particular one I watched a lot at close range, 7 yards, in the early '90s. He had a 2 point fork, that wrapped down over his mouth, and made browsing difficult. I could get that close, every evening when he came into water. I would lay on the ground just opposite where he would drink, and look him in the face. pre-digital days unfortunately. There were a lot of them back then, and in '93, they spent a good part of the summer on winter range.


----------



## muleymadness (Jan 23, 2008)

From the first pics he does looks skinny/lousy. But how about this pic? He actually looks much bigger/healthier to me and mature. I also watched this same buck last year, he looked and acted just fine all summer long came back this year looking okay to me except for his headgear. 

But he definitely has something weird going on.


----------

