# inline vs traditional



## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

what makes the inlines shoot farther than the traditional muzzleloaders?. what is the max distance to kill an elk with an inline 150?. i am obviously new to muzzleloading and i stll have to order my gun for my le wasatch tag. i know i am cutting it close to getting it tuned in. but i live 15 minutes away from a good gun range that i plan on visiting 3 times a week every week before the hunt.i am looking into the cva accura does anybody own this model if so what grain and loads are you shooting.i am not stuck on the accura and i would appreciate any input anyone would have


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

There is nothing "traditional" about a modern sidelock, they benefit from just as many improvements as most other rifles. I've always held the single greatest improvement to the muzzleloading weapons was the introduction of high-quality coil springs. Previous to that, flat springs were used that suffered from weakening, breakage and alignment issues. A modern sidelock is several orders of magnitude more reliable than a true 1830's rifle.

There is nothing specific to either weapon type to give it an advantage in range. Range is determined by the amount of powder burned and the Ballistic Coefficent (BC) of the projectile (assuming identical aiming angles, powder types and amounts, ignition source etc).

Most people dont realize that some Muzzle Loader mfgs make both types of muzzleloaders on the same CNC machines. In fact several MFG's used the same EXACT barrel on both of their sidelock and inline muzzleloaders.

The only difference between an inline and a sidelock is a very slight difference in lock time, or the amount of time from when you depress the trigger until ignition. Preformance being virtually the same, its just a matter of look and cleaning (sidelocks IMO, are much easier and quicker to clean).

One thing I dislike about sidelocks is a lack of a safety. I tripped once while just stalking in range to make a shot on a deer, ended up busting the action internally of my sidelock which allowed the hammer to swing free.

As for elk and range, it all depends on your projectile you wish to shoot. Max Distance will vary greatly between say, a roundball and a heavy conical. All smokepoles begin to drop very quickly beyond 125 yards, the rate of drop of course dependant totally on the projectiles BC.


-DallanC


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## prettytiedup (Dec 19, 2007)

I believe the biggest difference between the ones I have owned is rate of twist of the barrel. My old TC Hawkins has like a 1 in 60 twist, while my Omega has like a 1-28 twist. They really are designed to shoot different projectiles. In my experience shooting both guns, the Omega is more accurate shooting the projectile it was designed for than the Hawkins is shooting the projectile it was designed for.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

All of my muzzleloaders are a 1 in 28" twist. Inlines, sidelocks... all the same fast twist to stablize conicals / sabots.

But you are right, I should have specified above that with identical barrel twists / lengths, the results will be virtually identical as far as max range.


-DallanC


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

If you dont want a sidelock, get a remington Browning or winchester.


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## hazmat (Apr 23, 2009)

redleg said:


> If you dont want a sidelock, get a remington Browning or winchester.


i am leaning towards an inline what would you reccomend and what do you think is max distance on todays newer models


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

hazmat said:


> i am leaning towards an inline what would you reccomend and what do you think is max distance on todays newer models


Its totally up to the shooter. There are people that shouldnt shoot beyond 50 yards, others are fine several times that. 99% of my shots have been under 120 yards.

As for potential killing distance... google up Major General John Sedgwick.

-DallanC


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## MarkM (Sep 7, 2007)

You have gotten some good advise on the inline/side lock debate I will weigh in on your CVA Accura question. I picked up one at Cabelas earlier this year. They were coming out with the 2010 Accra V2 model and had a realy good deal on the regular Accura. I have heard that they have since put the older ones in the Bargin cave at VERY good prices. I really like the gun, accurate and is easey to clean. My best load so far is 80gr of Black Horn powder pushing a 295 gr Power Belt. Good Luck in your search!!

Mark


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

I think the older version of the Accura is on sale on the Cabelas website right now for 200 bucks! That is a screaming deal for a gun with a high grade 27" Bergara barrel. I have heard great things about the 2010 CVA Optima and CVA Wolf. They made a few new improvements and I am hearing good things about them on the muzzle loading forums. The quick release breech plug is an awesome improvement. Of course, you can't go wrong with a Thompson Center. But I would stay away from the TC Impact. I have seen quite a few negative reviews on it.


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

I just love it when the inline boys become traditional muzzleloader experts spouting off the sales rhetoric told to them when they went to mega-low-mart to buy their inline the week before the hunt. :roll: (how many of you inliners even know how to load a traditonal ML?)

Mass produced quasi-traditional sidelocks are not your grandpappy's muzzleloader. This is true.
True to type traditional muzzleloaders are in fact very accuracte and effective tools for taking game. But you must realize the limitations of distance for any muzzloading rifle. I shoot a great plains rifle that will in fact out shoot any inline at 100 yards with open sights. (ok, yeah, someone's gonna say that either they or their uncles neighbors hairdressers cousin can shoot 15 consecutive shots through the same hole at 100 yards, then I stand corrected) Point is, my gun shoots better than any inline I have had the pleasure to shoot side by side with at the range. 
Its a 1 in 60" twist. I shoot real black powder and cast my own lead balls. I load 'em tight and the gun shoots straight. Limitation is that the laws of physics are unkind to spherical bullets. Past 100 yards it drops like, well, a lead ball! I limit my shots to 125 yards. Inside of that it is wicked. 


I'm not anti inline. I just get tired of the 'my gun is better than your gun' attitude when it isn't really true. I should take bets against next group of inliners I come across at Lee Kay, and take their money.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Excellent post. 

Both sides believe the hype though. Too many traditional guys believe the hype and some perceived advantage inlines have over them. Anymore it all comes down to your personal preference. With the right load pretty much any of them will outshoot anything from the 1830s.

I love both styles, started shooting frontstuffers around 30 years ago... with an old 1/48" twist T/C Hawkin. Great gun that I still own, although its been rebarreled. Its every bit as accurate as my newer guns, and just as fun to shoot.

I still think though, sidelocks are easier and quicker to clean than any other type. 


-DallanC


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

hazmat said:


> redleg said:
> 
> 
> > If you dont want a sidelock, get a remington Browning or winchester.
> ...


I ment a bolt action or a semi


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

woollybugger said:


> *I just love it when the inline boys become traditional muzzleloader experts spouting off the sales rhetoric told to them when they went to mega-low-mart to buy their inline the week before the hunt. :roll: (how many of you inliners even know how to load a traditonal ML?)*
> 
> Mass produced quasi-traditional sidelocks are not your grandpappy's muzzleloader. This is true.
> True to type traditional muzzleloaders are in fact very accuracte and effective tools for taking game. But you must realize the limitations of distance for any muzzloading rifle. I shoot a great plains rifle that will in fact out shoot any inline at 100 yards with open sights. (ok, yeah, someone's gonna say that either they or their uncles neighbors hairdressers cousin can shoot 15 consecutive shots through the same hole at 100 yards, then I stand corrected) Point is, my gun shoots better than any inline I have had the pleasure to shoot side by side with at the range.
> ...


I am confused... is someone in this thread talking smack on Traditional rifles?


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## JedInUtah (Sep 10, 2007)

Well I am inline as they get I guess. I shoot an inline, pelletized powder, and powerbelts. What can I say its fun, easy, and effective. I leave the more difficult stuff to my bow. LOL!
I currently own a CVA firebolt that I picked up from basspro. I would check there if you haven't already purchased your gun. They have some smokin' deals. Mine came with both a .45 and .50 caliber barrels nickel and fluted. Stole it for $230.
Anyway my CVA has been excellent in every regard of the word. I have not put their warranty to the test but like the way it reads anyway. CVA and powerbelt are friends. CVA rifles are tested and tuned with powerbelt bullets so you will get your best results there. I shoot 100 gr. of powder, 2 50 gr. pellets and a 295 gr. hollow point powerbelt. It has shot true and straight. Taken 3 deer with it so far. Accuracy at the range says I could do out to 100+ but I like to keep em close. I haven't shot a deer yet over 40 yds. That's half the fun is sneaking up on them.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

hazmat said:


> what makes the inlines shoot farther than the traditional muzzleloaders?.


The limitations of barrels and projectiles has been discussed already, yet the biggest factor for shooting beyond 100 yards with any firearm has got to be the sights. Many inlines have fiber optics on the sights that will work wonders for low light shooting. Put a 1x scope on there and you can get a decent sight picture out to 200 yards +. Try that with iron sights and you'll quickly see why inlines have a reputation for "shooting farther". Of course you could put a scope on a traditional, but inlines generally come set up for it. My inline (TC Omega) will shoot 5 shots under 1" at 100 yards. None of my factory high powered rifles will do that! Of course that's using a magnifying scope, the groups drop off to about 1.5" with my 1x scope. My best group with iron sights is around 3".


> what is the max distance to kill an elk with an inline 150?.


With the right setup you should be able to kill an elk at 200 yards provided you can see it and make a good shot. That is a long shot to take with a 1x scope or iron sights though, I would say 100-150 is a good maximum range unless you practice a lot and have a good rest and sight picture. You have to know the range of the animal too since the trajectory of a ML goes to crap after 100 yards. I assume you'll have a .50 cal, use some saboted bullets around 300 grains. The Barnes or the bonded Shockwave would both be great choices. Even the regular Shockwave or SST would work well. Some people like the powerbelts for their ease of loading, but I get poor accuracy in my gun and marginal penetration if I shoot them fast. If you do decide to use them, be sure and get the big 348 grain ones because they're pretty much just a blob of soft lead. Not saying that's bad, but soft bullets need to be heavy and slow moving to penetrate. I like a bullet to move fast and hold together.

I'm a Thompson fan because of their accuracy, but CVA definitely makes a great gun too. Just don't go cheap! Good rifles start around $300-350.


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## wirehair (Aug 2, 2010)

I have been shooting black powder guns ever since the first year Utah had a special season for them. Started with an old Hawken style rifle. Bought a White when they came out with the model 91. Then bought another White for a back up gun. Biggest difference is the weight. That old Hawken is heavy. And if you want it to shoot good and be able to shove a bullet down the barrel, you need to run a brush through it after every shot.That was the reason I purchased a White. The barrels are .504. And they are made to shoot dirty. I can shoot five shots and still get the next bullet in without extreme effort. Accuracy is very good and cleaning isn't too horrible. Many of the new inlines are way easier to clean. And if you want to shoot real heavy bullets, the inline is the only way to go. The slow twist of a traditional front stuffer won't stabilize a slug. Round balls only. I shot paper one time to see why the old Hawken wouldn't shoot a big buffalo bullet straight. At 100 yards, the bullet was tumbling end over end. 
All that said, it is way fun to bag a good animal with a traditional rifle.


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## WasatchOutdoors (Sep 26, 2007)

DallanC said:


> hazmat said:
> 
> 
> > i am leaning towards an inline what would you reccomend and what do you think is max distance on todays newer models
> ...


I'm going to agree with that completely. My gun shoots extremely well out past 200 yards. However in my hands with open sights I'm not comfortable past 100 yards these days. Had Lasik surgery last year and I can't focus on the sight and animal the way I used to.

The other thing I would suggest is if you are buying an inline, get one with a hand removable breech plug. That way you can clean between shots without much effort, and you won't have to carry extra tools with you. The 209 ignition is really nice to have too.


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## sbs20ga (Sep 20, 2009)

So, DallanC, you might be right, But,....
do you think that stocks that don't swell, telescopic sights, (or any single plane sight), enclosed "hot" primers, powder that needs to be measured, or balls that need to be patched, might have some little slight impact ?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

sbs20ga said:


> So, DallanC, you might be right, But,....
> do you think that stocks that don't swell, telescopic sights, (or any single plane sight), enclosed "hot" primers, powder that needs to be measured, or balls that need to be patched, might have some little slight impact ?


Well certainly it has impact, but if you do some research on muzzleloaders in the early 1800's, you will find a few quality firearms makers that turned out incredibly accurate rifles. Reliablity IMO is what took a huge leap forward in later years.

-DallanC


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## TopofUtahArcher (Sep 9, 2009)

I have a 50 cal. Traditions sidelock purchased for around $200 at Sportsman's about 10 years ago (My wife was elated when in stead of something from Dad for the family I got a Smokepole  

It has a 1/28 twist and shoots round-balls 2" group at 100 yards in a vice, and powerbelts and sabots the same. I use 110 grains of powder and it is a dream to shoot... speaking of which, I just got back from an out of state elk hunt and need to get it out and polish it up for the weekend hunt! Good hunting to you.


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