# Northern vs lesser



## Bottomwatcher (Jan 21, 2009)

Had the great chance to take a big northern goose and a lesser. I couldn't believe the size difference on the two birds. A big thanks to the friends of mine that helped me score on these two birds.


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## outdoorser (Jan 14, 2013)

Wow the lesser looks more like the size of a mallard. I've never shot a lesser. Congrats on two fine birds!


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Very nice, congrats!


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm pretty sure what you have is smaller than a Lesser... most likely a Richardson goose. Its part of the subspecies of cacklers. one of the bigger cacklers. congrats... I say have it mounted!!! Definitely a bird worthy of the wall!!!


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## silentstalker (Feb 19, 2008)

Awesome birds!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Yep, that's not a Lesser. Did you get a weight on those birds? I killed a couple of tiny geese up at Salt Creek once, I'm sure they were Cacklers.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Looks like a Cackler.

Any more pictures? Side view of head and beak?


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

Bottomwatcher said:


> Had the great chance to take a big northern goose and a lesser. I couldn't believe the size difference on the two birds. A big thanks to the friends of mine that helped me score on these two birds.


Sweet little goose!! I also agree that what you have is a cackler and not a lesser canada. Post up some more pics of the little guy. It looks to have a white base ring at the bottom of the neck. Indicating most likely it's a taverners. Could also be an Richardson's cackler as well. If it has a rust colored chest then it's a small cackler. Although I can't tell if it does from you photo. Mount the bird on the wall! Love them little geese!!! Hunted Alaska this year for them. Lots of fun!!!


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm also guessing cackler! Any more pics of the head?? That's a rare one if it is indeed a cackler!


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

Since we are on the topic. There are 5 subspecies of Cackler with 1 of them being extinct (Bering Cackler). I am one away from checking them all off. I still need the Aleutian Cackling Goose.

Taverner's Cackling Goose. Largest of the Cackling Goose family. Silver breast. Has a white patch or strip below the neck. (Aleutian Cacklers have this as well and is more pronounced.)









Richardson's (or Hutchins's) Cackling Goose. Light pale breast. Odds are that this cackling goose is the one most frequent in Utah. IMHO.









Cackling Cackling Goose or Small Cackling Goose. Smallest of the subspecies. Has a brownish purplish colored chest.









A couple comparison photo of a Taverners and a Small Cackling Goose.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Thanks King Eider. That's a great tutorial.


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## Bottomwatcher (Jan 21, 2009)

Thanks for all the info on these little birds. There is still a lot for me to learn. This little goose came in by himself and circled a little ways out and then headed for other parts. I got after him with the call and turned back, clucked him all the way in and he dive bombed the decoys actually knocking into a feeder decoy and spinning it around. He stood there for a second staring at the decoy he just crashed into and then walked over to it and layed down next to it. We were laughing so hard that shooting straight was a little issue!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Cool!8) Those little geese are my favorite.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

NICE! Congratulations

Everytime i hear them little booger's up in the sky, i think of my wife's lil Yorkshire Terrier. //dog//


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

Bottomwatcher said:


> Thanks for all the info on these little birds. There is still a lot for me to learn. This little goose came in by himself and circled a little ways out and then headed for other parts. I got after him with the call and turned back, clucked him all the way in and he dive bombed the decoys actually knocking into a feeder decoy and spinning it around. He stood there for a second staring at the decoy he just crashed into and then walked over to it and layed down next to it. We were laughing so hard that shooting straight was a little issue!


Looks to be a taverners I think. Great little goose!!  Congrats again!


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

Longgun said:


> NICE! Congratulations
> 
> Everytime i hear them little booger's up in the sky, i think of my wife's lil Yorkshire Terrier. //dog//


You should hear the small cackler.... high pitched yappie little things... Took goose calls up there when we hunted them.. yea that did us no good.


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

This was years ago, so it may not be true now. But the Bill Saunders guys, had hunts exclusively for Cacklers. They had an appropriately tuned call purpose built for it and everything.
Once upon a time there was an article in Wildfowl, about an exclusive Aluetian hunt that a guy was running California. It was a Feb.-Mar. deal if I remember right a nussiance type hunt specifically for Aluetians.

Back in the day, I used to love hunting the little geese. I just always thought it was cool to compare the size difference. I never got very good at making a positive ID. All the information I could ever find suggested that culmen length (length of the bill more or less) was the definitive classification method, but even then the sub-species would over lap, and who wants to carry calipers in their blind bag. Most sub-species had one or two defining characteristics, but there was a ton of over lap. The best I could tell the only one I never really got a crack at was the "Giant" sub-species. I believe I got the rest at one point or another, but again that was a while back, I'm sur they have re-classified some of the subs at this point.

Later,
Kev


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

stuckduck said:


> .... high pitched yappie little...


yep, you just picked the four best words to describe our Yorkshire. 

@ Kev, I know what you're saying about the little geese and being a plethora of possible hybreds. Anymore, when i get one through the shop, it's classified/recorded in my Fed book as small canada goose. :|


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

When I first got hte collecting bug, they were jsut one species "Canada Goose", and then about 13 "subs". Then about 4 years into it they made the switch to Canada goose , and Cackling Canada goose ( think that's it, don't quote me, it's been a while).

Subs and the like are an intersting topic on the whole, and then to learn the venacular (sp?) is crazy. Stuff like the difference between true hybrids and intergrades. Sub-species and color morphs. Then throw the "Greater vs. Lesser" stuff on top. A guy could devote his entire life to the topic and maybe not ever get full clarity! Crazy!

When I set out to do the NA32, I made it a point to not include sub-species, until I was done with the full 32. I never made it to the end, but to try and include subs would have been a whole new pandoras box. Eiders alone have 5 (6 if you count the extinct one), Common Mergansers at one point had a purposed 11!! Can you believe that? Even the lowly GWT has 3 or 4 if I remember right.

Later,
Kev


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

You sure are right kev... The sub list goes on and on..... There are guys out there that go as far as coming up with subspecies even crossing with each other.. Talk is they are even thinking of expanding the original NA32 to include some birds that migrate up to Texas from the south.... I know they have whittled down the subspecies list on chin straps. And you are right there is a lot of question of what you really have in hand. You would think they would do Canada's like snow geese.. Phases in stead of a whole new species... For me it really boils down to the bird... Bands or stacks and piles of them is not the fun in chasing them... It's to set out for that particular one and successfully harvesting that bird...... I was more excited to harvest a cackling cackler than a double banded brant... Crazy I know, but the small bird was a challenge and an experience I'll never forget! Laying on the tundra, in the middle of my Canada goose socks. With the tundra pulled up on top of me and waiting for them to come in. A grizzly and her cub out in the same area wondering around. In the back of my mind playing who would show up first... What a rush!


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

stuckduck said:


> Talk is they are even thinking of expanding the original NA32 to include some birds that migrate up to Texas from the south....


Yeah, that talk has been around as long as I've been "in the game". The way I see it "THE LIST" is a personal thing. It's not really a scientific deal and has more to do with what a particular guy/gal wants to do, than is does with particular science.
When I was into it, there was talk about including Eurasion Widgeons. I guess they have found a couple nesting in Washington? My hang up on that, and birds like the Mexican Mallard, Masked Duck, an a few others, all boiled down to opprotunity, inside of the "normal" range. My point always was this, it could take years and years and years, and guy still might never get a Eurasion Widgeon in Washington. There is a definet element of "luck" involved. On the other hand. If a guy gets in the right place a very tough bird, like the King Eider, or Black Bellied Whistling duck, could very easily be expected to be taken, even though their range is extremely limited.



> For me it really boils down to the bird... Bands or stacks and piles of them is not the fun in chasing them... It's to set out for that particular one and successfully harvesting that bird......


I couldn't agree more. I never really had a thing for bands. I gave away any that I may have taken over the years, and it wasn't many. I don't begrudge guys that like them though, I think their cool, just not my bag. I'll take a "list" bird, in a new place, with a good buddy, any day. Or any bird over that species of decoy that we happen to be targeting. Or any bird with a good buddy on a unique hunt.
Once I reached the point that I started targeting specific species, it really opened up my eyes. And then when it went a step further and I was specifically hunting for a "wall worthy" specimen, it got even that much more intense. The trip and the "hunt" was why I liked it so much.
Over the years the circle of friends started to break down, the "list" got shorter requireing more travel, and it got to be too much for too little. Maybe someday I'll get "it" back. I'm hoping to get a couple of times this year. Time will tell.

Later,
Kev


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## king eider (Aug 20, 2009)

I'll second that stuck!! Far more excited to pick up that small cackler off the tundra then the banded brant. Hell, I think I carried that small cackler back on that 3 mile hike with out letting him touch nothing but the the hand I held him in.

Thanks for the post Kev! Got any info/website on the subspecies of mergs? I'm up for some reading.

**kev, I like your analogy of the list and it's complied reason. Very spot on if I might say. Once I got past the piles of birds and the bands I sure do enjoy water fowling more. (Nothing wrong with piles and bands at all, but I'm there with you. They don't fancy me much at all.) The simple please of a bird in the hand is all that! Took my first common merganser yesterday in 6 or so years. A different satisfaction than the last time.


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

One of the coolest things about waterfowling as a sport, is that it is 110% up to the discression of the participant, as to how they enjoy the sport. Meaning, you get to decide what turns your wheel! Some guys dig the dog work, some the decoys, some the boat, some the guns, some the "list", some guys dig the company, others the snacks! Many enjoy multiple aspects, in just as many different arrangements and priority levels.

I used to carry a "bird care kit", in my blind bag. For when trophy birds graced my presence I could take care of them immediatly. I would let the bird cool, put a little cotton in the mouth to soak up blood, wrap the bill in wet paper towels, wipe off any blod with a different towel, and then triple wrap. First in a ziploc, sucking out all the air, then in a simple trash bag twisted then doubled over (side note: the trash bags cam in handy for more than just the kit, more than once). My thing was the trophy. I loved having birds for the wall. That's one of the reasons I didn't hunt much in the early season.

It's funny too, hunters will go through stages. I believe Outdoor Life, classified it once in an article, I can't remember. It's fun to watch and be a part of. I've been through all of it. The piles, the pictures, you name it, I've been there. I think now I'd be happy with a good bird, on a good day, with a good friend, and photo to remember it.

Later,
Kev


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

kev said:


> One of the coolest things about waterfowling as a sport, is that it is 110% up to the discression of the participant, as to how they enjoy the sport. Meaning, you get to decide what turns your wheel! Some guys dig the dog work, some the decoys, some the boat, some the guns, some the "list", some guys dig the company, others the snacks! Many enjoy multiple aspects, in just as many different arrangements and priority levels.
> 
> I used to carry a "bird care kit", in my blind bag. For when trophy birds graced my presence I could take care of them immediatly. I would let the bird cool, put a little cotton in the mouth to soak up blood, wrap the bill in wet paper towels, wipe off any blod with a different towel, and then triple wrap. First in a ziploc, sucking out all the air, then in a simple trash bag twisted then doubled over (side note: the trash bags cam in handy for more than just the kit, more than once). My thing was the trophy. I loved having birds for the wall. That's one of the reasons I didn't hunt much in the early season.
> 
> ...


Ditto, I'm at the stage now where I get a bigger kick out of seeing my grandson or son make a shot and knock down a bird than I do knocking one down myself. I actually try to relegate myself to "clean up duty" and help them bring down a bird they hit. Dang little grandson has surprised the heck out of me this year, in a good way of course.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

king eider said:


> Took my first common merganser yesterday in 6 or so years. A different satisfaction than the last time.


WORD! Lizards-lawndarts-Penguins et al, are where ITS at! :O•-:

King, some brief reading for you. 
http://10000birds.com/mergansers.htm

** Take note of Redbreasted Merganzers ** 100MPH??


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

Longgun said:


> WORD! Lizards-lawndarts-Penguins et al, are where ITS at! :O•-:
> 
> King, some brief reading for you.
> http://10000birds.com/mergansers.htm
> ...


Jimminey Christmas, what is the lead at 40 yards on a Merg zipping at 100MPH!!!! I bet it's about 15 feet...


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## duckkillerclyde (Mar 26, 2012)

That's a westerner and a cackler. No such thing as a "northern"

watch this and learn.


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

I think he meant "Northern" in the sense that it was a "non-resident", not nessecarily as a classification. Even so, sub-species ID and the nomanclature is not an exact science to say the least. Give the guy credit for knowing that they were both Canada's! Some, don't even know that, they just know "Goose", and unfortunately there are those that can't even distinguish that!

Your a lot like me Clyde. In as much as mis-identification, and/or lack of basic knowldege and such is a real burr under my saddle. But let's back it down a touch. Give the guy a break. Read the rest of the thread and you may get a warm fuzzy. Most of it is by guys that are as passionate as you are about this type of thing, and most will be very appreciative of the link, like I was. I've seen that presentation before. It still leaves me a bit lacking. But it was awesome to see it again, so for that I say "Thank you"

Later,
Kev


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> Jimminey Christmas, what is the lead at 40 yards on a Merg zipping at 100MPH!!!! I bet it's about 15 feet...


_lead_? _what lead_??? that sucker is LOOOoooooonnnnng _GONE_! :shock: Think about it... if my history is correct, and bearing in mind im a little corney about these "lawndart" things... that would akin that 100MPH RBM to the SR71. ;-)


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## stuckduck (Jan 31, 2008)

I have a good friend that grew up in Washington State.. And the stories he tells of back in his younger days of hunting geese you really had to know what birds you were shooting.. Because if you shot a dusky and you would get your card punched and you were done hunting Canada's for the season as you were only allowed one dusky per season. You would have to get really good at what it was before the trigger was pulled.


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## duckkillerclyde (Mar 26, 2012)

stuckduck said:


> you really had to know what birds you were shooting.. Because if you shot a dusky and you would get your card punched and you were done hunting Canada's for the season as you were only allowed one dusky per season.
> 
> NW OR and SW WA goose certified here.


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## kev (Feb 7, 2008)

I did that back in the day too. Seemed like the Dusky geese were pretty easy to tell, kind of like picking drakes and hens by the color contrast. The Dusky's we saw were way dark. Pretty cool sub-species. For the most part the dark belly was the only consistent distinguishing feature, everything else was kind of a mish mash of the others, especially in flight.

Good topic.

Later,
Kev


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## Bottomwatcher (Jan 21, 2009)

Yea I'll be the first to admit that when you hunt locally you never see the variaty of geese that you will see in other flyways. When hunting in Utah you can see thousands of ducks but only a handful of geese that are local birds. The "nothern" goose that I refured to was a migrator and a lot bigger than the local geese that we shoot around here. My friends and i refer to them as "northerns" within our little group. This hunt was not a local hunt and I was able to see "thousands" of geese. I saw 1 bird with a big white bar on it's chest and 2 others that had white rings at the base of their necks. All 3 birds were big birds that skirtted the outside of the decoys,not little like the cacklers I saw. I know that I look for the "different" birds when hunting and the oddball bird is more of a trophy for me. As said before, everyone hunts for different reasons and to each their own. I love the sounds and smells of the marsh and just bagging a bird is a bonus! Even if it was a "Northern"


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