# Trouble with the law.



## Jigz (Sep 30, 2007)

So my wife and I and some friends all took our kids to Holmes Creek on Sunday. The water level is very high, and there aren't many places to fish there. We finally managed to find an adequate spot and I baited and helped cast my sons line in. Within 5 minutes there was a fish on and my son reeled in a healthy rainbow about 14 inches. We had several lines in the water but only managed one more fish (on my son's pole) that I let my friend's little girl reel in. We were there for around 3 hours or so. 
Now here's where the trouble started.....
A fish and game warden came up and asked for our licenses, which I obliged him, as did everyone else in our group. He then asked me if I had a second pole permit. I told him that I did not and asked him why. He said that I had 2 poles. I told him that in fact I was fishing with one, and my son the other, which is perfectly within the law as he is 5 years old. He then said that he had been watching us for the last 45 minutes and that my son hadn't even touched the pole once. Well since we hadn't even had a single bite in that time and I can recall reeling in to check his bait one time, I acknowledged that that was true.
At this point I am starting to wonder what exactly he is getting at and I ask him what I have done wrong, as I felt like I was doing nothing wrong at all, just trying to enjoy a day of fishing with my family and friends. He told me that I was allowed to "help" my child fish, but not do everything for them, he said I could tie the hook on, bait the hook, help them cast out, set the hook.............I informed him that I had done just that to the letter and nothing more.
After defending myself and my actions and getting pretty worked up in the process, he told me to calm down, that he wasn't going to write me a citation, but that he could if he wanted to. 
I felt unjustly accused of being in the wrong on this. Maybe I am wrong, but I felt like I was doing everything right to help these kids enjoy fishing. I also felt that this officer hurt the image of fishing for these kids as they were scared that I was going to jail and my 3 year old nearly cried. :evil:


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## Ruger67 (Apr 22, 2008)

That don't surprise me anybody that has a badge has lots of attitude, and that tough guy syndrome...


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## Size Matters (Dec 22, 2007)

That is too bad you had trouble they always seem to make you feel guilty even when you are not doing anything wrong. 8)


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not going to take sides on this but here is something to think about.
I have called DWR Officers to watch people that I thought were breaking the law before.
When they show up, they do just as this CO did. They observe and then react.
What you were doing with your son was in a gray area but as you stated, you were not trying to break any laws.

The CO came over and explained this to you.
You felt that you were being unjustly accused of doing something that in your own mind was legal.
You told us that you got a little upset with the Officer, which I can understand and the Officer told you that he wasn't going to cite you.
Not the best way for a day to go but as I see it, you now have a better understanding of what CO's are up against whenever they are trying to uphold fishing regulations.

I am sorry that you and your family were embarrassed by this but I don't see anything wrong with the CO talking to you about what he observed.


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

I dont think you did anything wrong. You were only "helping" him, right?

Heck- I've sat for an hour before and never even touched my own pole! No need to, just slow fishing..

I've read through the proc a couple of times and cant find where you did anything wrong. I especially dont see where it specifies or defines "help" or a rule that stipulates how often you need to touch the pole. :? Am I missing something?

From the proc:

Under 12 years of age
Utah Code § 23-19-21 and Utah Admin. Rule R657-13-3
If you're under 12 years of age, you do not need a fishing license to fish in Utah. You can
fish without a license and take a full bag and possession limit.
The only exceptions are if you'd like to fish with a second pole or a setline. If you're under the age of 12 and would like to fish with either a second pole or a setline, you must purchase a Utah fishing or combination license and a second-pole or setline permit. Please see pages 9-10 of this guide for more information about second-pole and setline permits.

And:

Angling
Utah Admin. Rule R657-13-6
You may not fish with more than one fishing line except when:
• You are fishing for crayfish. Please
see page 12 of this guide for more information
about fishing for crayfish.
• You have a second-pole or setline
permit. Information about fishing with a second pole is available on page 9. Information
about fishing with a setline is available on page 10.
• You are ice fishing at Flaming Gorge. Please see pages 22-23 for the rules specific to Flaming Gorge.
While fishing, you must be within sight of the equipment you're fishing with (this distance cannot exceed 100 feet). The only exception to this rule is if you have a setline permit. Please see page 10 for more information about fishing with a setline.

And:

...If you're under 12 years of age and would like to fish with a *second* pole, you must have a valid seven-day or 365-day Utah fishing or combination
license in order to use it (a setline permit is not valid unless it's accompanied by a valid fishing or combination license).
• If you're under 12 years of age and would like to use a setline, you must have a valid one-day, seven-day or 365-day Utah fishing or combination license, and a setline permit.

Good on ya for getting those kids out!


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## luv2fsh&hnt (Sep 22, 2007)

Jigz said:


> So my wife and I and some friends all took our kids to Holmes Creek on Sunday. The water level is very high, and there aren't many places to fish there. We finally managed to find an adequate spot and I baited and helped cast my sons line in. Within 5 minutes there was a fish on and my son reeled in a healthy rainbow about 14 inches. We had several lines in the water but only managed one more fish (on my son's pole) that I let my friend's little girl reel in. We were there for around 3 hours or so.
> Now here's where the trouble started.....
> A fish and game warden came up and asked for our licenses, which I obliged him, as did everyone else in our group. He then asked me if I had a second pole permit. I told him that I did not and asked him why. He said that I had 2 poles. I told him that in fact I was fishing with one, and my son the other, which is perfectly within the law as he is 5 years old. He then said that he had been watching us for the last 45 minutes and that my son hadn't even touched the pole once. Well since we hadn't even had a single bite in that time and I can recall reeling in to check his bait one time, I acknowledged that that was true.
> At this point I am starting to wonder what exactly he is getting at and I ask him what I have done wrong, as I felt like I was doing nothing wrong at all, just trying to enjoy a day of fishing with my family and friends. He told me that I was allowed to "help" my child fish, but not do everything for them, he said I could tie the hook on, bait the hook, help them cast out, set the hook.............I informed him that I had done just that to the letter and nothing more.
> ...


I am sorry you experienced this and especially your child. I have had similar experiences and this is the very reason why I hold a general dislike and at times a genuine hatred for LEO'S. It is my opinion that alot of the people that enter that occupation are the same goobers that got their ass kicked all through high school now they have a badge and gun and think they are important. My opinion does not apply to TAK or the Marine as I believe they are stand up dudes!


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## Wilford (Mar 31, 2009)

Jigz,
It is unfortunate that your families outing was somewhat dampened by the interaction with the LEO. I have had the same experience. However, to generalize that all LEO's are like this would be wrong. I think there are some personalities that can put necessary points accross and leave people smiling and feeling good. Unfortunately there are others who don't seem to have that ability. I think the best thing is to get your family back out and give them a good experience. Perhaps that would negate the bad experience. Just sayin...


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Tough situation there. Here's what I would recommend:

Always, always, always stay calm and composed and respectful. If you don't, it is almost incriminating for you. In my experience, being calm and collected will almost always get you off the hook, where getting upset only makes them want to throw the book at you. 

I always keep a proclamation onhand also. While it is not an exhaustive list of all the rules, simple things like this should be covered within its pages. Pull it out and kindly ask the CO to show you the rules. Who knows, the CO may be confounded by what is read. If you are in the wrong, apologize sincerely, and vow to not let it happen again. We're all human, and the CO's I have always interacted with have been understanding and reasonable people. I know there are a few "pieces of work" out there, but I think most will excuse an honest mistake. 

The other thing you could do is pick up a second pole permit. Problem solved.


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## whiteknuckler (Apr 1, 2009)

The warden could have simply said hello and could have reminded you of the rules instead of throw out a bunch of accusations and ruin your families out. That the way some people are. Next time, take Claude Dallas fishing with you. He's not afraid to stand up to the Fish and Game :twisted: ,


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## Tigru (Oct 15, 2007)

The dude sounds like an ass! Sorry man, that could have been handled way better


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Ruger67 said:


> That don't surprise me anybody that has a badge has lots of attitude, and that tough guy syndrome...


You paint with an awfully broad brush there Ruger! I have never dealt with any of them that was not first class nice and respectful folks. It seems that your attitude is common only only among those on the wrong side of the law, as long as you don't mind making broad generalizations. This experience certainly was in the gray area and not a positive one, but I think this is the exception more than the rule.


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## udot110a (Jan 20, 2008)

I guess I need to get clear on this is it aganist the law to touch the pole of another person IE tie hook, bait hook, cast the baited hook? I have usally done this for my wife especially if we are using worms and then cast it out for her just so she can get some distance. She always sets the hook her self and gets the fish to the bank but I always remove the hook from the fish. Any INFO. or do I need to check with DWR.


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## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

Ruger67 said:


> That don't surprise me anybody that has a badge has lots of attitude, and that tough guy syndrome...





luv2fsh&hnt said:


> I am sorry you experienced this and especially your child. I have had similar experiences and this is the very reason why I hold a general dislike and at times a genuine hatred for LEO'S. It is my opinion that alot of the people that enter that occupation are the same goobers that got **** all through high school now they have a badge and gun and think they are important. My opinion does not apply to TAK or the Marine as I believe they are stand up dudes!


Really? Please tell me you guys aren't that shallow. This is exactly the opposite, most officers do not fit that description.


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## Riverrat77 (Sep 7, 2007)

I actually got cited for this on free fishing day when i took my wife out fishing Provo Bay by the airport. Was out to get her into catfish and Vic, one of the state park guys drove past and wrote me up because when he asked if both poles were mine, I told him yeah... well, i did own both poles but then told the judge that I owned both poles but my wife fished with one, I fished with the other and it was Free Fishing Day so he just dismissed the ticket. I think they do get kinda nit picky on that sort of violation but they're just doing their job. At least he let you off without writing you up. 8)


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

Just get a second pole permit. No worries.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I help my wife and 3 daughters all the time with their fishing poles, I guess a 2 pole permit wouldn't do me any good. Law enforcement! :roll: A 2 pole permit is a joke anyway, just another **** excuse for more money. Let people fish with 2, who gives a crap you can only keep so many fish anyways. :O•-: oh and by the way other states allow fishing with 2 poles but they don't charge extra for it. Welcome to Utah! :mrgreen:


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## KennyC (Apr 28, 2010)

A similar situation happened to my wife and I while fishing Causey a few weeks back. I saw the CO long before he came down to talk with us and had all my DOC. in order and just out for a day with the family. My wife wasn't fishing and I had 2 poles in the water with permits for both. My 3yr old had his in the water, since he likes to reel in and try to cast constantly I had it setup with a bobber. Well I was catching pretty steady and my wife didn't have a pole but just reading a book and watching. There were 2 instances that his line was drifting and I had asked him to reel in and that I would help him cast, since he is 3 and his attention span is about as long as a facial hair my wife had to get up and reel it in the rest of the way. I cast it back out and then it happened again, but this time as I was getting ready to put my pole down "Fish ON" so my wife cast back out for him and sits down. Just a couple of minutes later here come my buddy in Brown. Asked how was the fishing so on and so forth. He asked for my wifes lic. and I told him I purchased it on line the morning of but couldn't get it to print and that is why she isn't fishing. He said but she is and I said NO she was assisting my son and partially because at that particular moment I was tied up landing my fish. So a few min. go by the wife gets pissed and I remain calm and listen. I told him that my son is 3 and sometimes we have to do things for him. He said that is fine but he has to be within arms reach of his pole and has to have some active part in the fishing process. I understood his questioning my wifes actions especially after realizing there are those out there that say "My kid is fishing" but in actuallity they are not. Problem fixed lic. came in the mail and we just tell the kids they have to do the work. No big deal just inconvienent.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

This is unfortunate, but in all fairness it sounds like the officer wasn't too bad, he only gave a warning. I still think it is a very gray area and not worthy of a talk IMO. Maybe they haven't been fishing with a child before? :? I tell my son that if he isn't going to sit by his pole we have to reel it in, he is only three. So if he starts to wander I reel it in, so I don't have too many poles in the water, am I breaking the law? Also my wife doesn't have a fishing license but she helps my son, is that breaking the law? If the answer is yes too both of these that is messed up! I don't plan on changing what I do, because I don't see any other way with kids and from what I read, it is not breaking the rules. That would be one of those worth fighting in court IMO. Now if they would concentrate on those actually breaking the law!  :lol: 

Side note, why is it when you hope to see an officer for any reason (driving, hunting, fishing) because someone is breaking the law you never see one. :lol: :mrgreen:


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

udot110a said:


> I guess I need to get clear on this is it aganist the law to touch the pole of another person IE tie hook, bait hook, cast the baited hook? I have usally done this for my wife especially if we are using worms and then cast it out for her just so she can get some distance. She always sets the hook her self and gets the fish to the bank but I always remove the hook from the fish. Any INFO. or do I need to check with DWR.


I sure hope not. When myself and another person are in my boat and we both have 2-pole permits we usually run 4 rods. MOST of the time i am the ONLY person on the boat that can handle setting all 4 rods on the downriggers. That means i fished with 4 poles i guess. I don't get to reel hardly any fish in but i have to set them out. Do you think they would ticket me for that? Or make me get a guide license?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> I sure hope not. When myself and another person are in my boat and we both have 2-pole permits we usually run 4 rods. MOST of the time i am the ONLY person on the boat that can handle setting all 4 rods on the downriggers. That means i fished with 4 poles i guess. I don't get to reel hardly any fish in but i have to set them out. Do you think they would ticket me for that? Or make me get a guide license?


+1. I run 5 poles though 8)

As for helping someone else bait up a rig... no issue there. They arent technically "fishing" yet if the bait isnt in the water.

-DallanC


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

DallanC said:


> lunkerhunter2 said:
> 
> 
> > I sure hope not. When myself and another person are in my boat and we both have 2-pole permits we usually run 4 rods. MOST of the time i am the ONLY person on the boat that can handle setting all 4 rods on the downriggers. That means i fished with 4 poles i guess. I don't get to reel hardly any fish in but i have to set them out. Do you think they would ticket me for that? Or make me get a guide license?
> ...


I bait the rods, let out the desired amount of line, set them to the desired depth, and then the other persons get to reel the fish in and land them.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> I bait the rods, let out the desired amount of line, set them to the desired depth, and then the other persons get to reel the fish in and land them.


Ditto. I will usually let a kid who hasnt caught a fish yet to pick up the next pole with a fish, just so everyone gets action 

-Dallanc


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

We all know that fishing laws can be vague.
They have to be in some cases.
Because the laws can be vague, not all CO's will see things the same way.
It also allows for warnings rather that written violations.
In the case first mentioned here, the Officer was just clairfying the law and things became heatedas the conversation went on.

As I read the post, it appeared to me that the CO was just trying to let the father know the law.
The father didn't like what he was being told and became angery.
This was not necessary and things would have gone a lot better it he had not gotten angery.

In the end, there was no citation given and a lesson was there to be learned.
Be respectfull of the law and the Officers that inforce the law.
Do this and you will normally have a pleasant time on the water.


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## udot110a (Jan 20, 2008)

I guess I need to get clear on this is it aganist the law to touch the pole of another person IE tie hook, bait hook, cast the baited hook? I have usally done this for my wife especially if we are using worms and then cast it out for her just so she can get some distance. She always sets the hook her self and gets the fish to the bank but I always remove the hook from the fish. Any INFO. or do I need to check with DWR.

To anwser my own question I went to http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules/R657-13.php
and found the following rules. No where did I read anything about helping a kid or a adult out with fishing (baiting, casting, tieing lures or hooks.) There is the letter of the law and then there is common sence!
R657-13-2. Definitions.
(aa) "Second pole" means fishing with one additional rod, pole, tipup, handline, or trollboard that has a single line with legal hooks, bait, or lures attached to it and is held in the hands of, or within sight of the person fishing.
R657-13-6. Angling.
(1) While angling, the angler shall be within sight (not to exceed 100 feet) of the equipment being used at all times, except setlines.
(2) Angling with more than one line is unlawful, except:
(a) when using a valid second pole permit in conjunction with an unexpired Utah one day, seven day or annual fishing or combination license;
R657-13-7. Fishing With More than One Pole (Second Pole Permits).
(1) A person may use a second pole to take fish on all waters open to fishing provided they have an unexpired fishing or combination license and a valid second pole permit, except as provided in Subsection (5) below.
(2)(a) A second pole permit may be obtained through the division's web site, from license agents and division offices.
(b)(i) A second pole permit is a 365 day permit valid only when used in conjunction with an unexpired Utah one day, seven day or annual fishing or combination license.
(ii) A second pole permit does not allow an angler to take more than one daily bag or possession limit.
(3) Anglers under 12 years of age must purchase a valid fishing or combination license and second pole permit in order to use a second pole.
(4) A second pole permit shall only be used by the person to whom the second pole permit was issued.
(5) A person may use up to six lines without a second pole permit when fishing at Flaming Gorge Reservoir through the ice. When using more than two lines at Flaming Gorge Reservoir, the angler's name shall be attached to each line, pole, or tip-up, and the angler shall check only their lines.
No ad


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

udot110a said:


> I guess I need to get clear on this is it aganist the law to touch the pole of another person IE tie hook, bait hook, cast the baited hook? I have usally done this for my wife especially if we are using worms and then cast it out for her just so she can get some distance. She always sets the hook her self and gets the fish to the bank but I always remove the hook from the fish. Any INFO. or do I need to check with DWR.


I'd absolutely argue that baiting / rigging someone else's pole is legal because it is not even fishing until the bait is in the water.

-DallanC


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## sinergy (Mar 6, 2008)

Jigz said:


> He then said that he had been watching us for the last 45 minutes and that my son hadn't even touched the pole once.


Im not taking sides obviously I was not there but I have been in a with a Sherrif ( Before DNR Policed that area) were we have watched people fish and break the law. Im not saying that this is your case again I was not there, but they do sit and watch you. The majority of the time most just look for his truck and he knows this so he will park a distance away and hike up hill on foot monitoring you writing down your description and infraction. By the time you see his truck he has already seen your actions and now is looking for clarification.



Jigz said:


> Well since we hadn't even had a single bite in that time and I can recall reeling in to check his bait one time, I acknowledged that that was true.


The law is open to interpretation thats why we have attorneys and I agree with you reeling a second pole in to check the bait is not really fishing a second pole but again you did have a first pole in the water and reeling in a second could be interpreted and fishing two poles.



Jigz said:


> just trying to enjoy a day of fishing with my family and friends.


aren't we all but poachers who ruin for for the masses



Jigz said:


> that he wasn't going to write me a citation,


No harm no foul dont know what dept this officer came from but DNR & DWR run into this situation over and over again. These officers approach thousands of people a year and everyone says they innocent. Not to say there perfect there people too.


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## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

I had a simular incident happen about 2 years ago. The officer approached my wife, my son and I. We had 4 poles in the water at the time. I told him they were all ours, not specifying which was who's. He said he had seen my son reel in two different rods at two different times and wanted to see his license and his second pole permit.
I told the officer that his pole was which ever pole had a bite on it. He seemed amused at first, then became very agitated and demanded to see both my wifes and my licenses and second pole permits. Wifey obliged at once and showed both to the officer. After looking over hers, he turned and glared at me and demanded mine. I stammered, shook and slowly pulled my wallet out. I tried my best to look scared.
First I handed him my Florida non resident annual fresh water license, he said that was not the one he wanted to see. Then I handed him my Florida Non res salt water annual license. Again he told me that was not what he wanted. Next I handed him my lifetime license from NY. He handed it back with a "Nope". Then my non res. Wyoming annual licence. "Nope" again. He could see my smirk by now and was calming down quite a bit himself. Next I produced my non res. Idaho license and second pole permit, his eyes rolled as by now he could see at the bottom of the stack my UT license. Then I handed him my UT license and second pole permit, with a heavy sigh and a "there it is, Is that the right one?"
He smiled and said "thank you. I hope your son catches some more fish" I replied, "I hope so too." Then he left. I turned to the wife and said "we are not the droids he is looking for".
A saw the same officer a couple of weeks later near the same spot. He smiled as he walked up and asked my son and I how the fishing was. I replied slow and asked if he wanted to see my license. He smiled and said, "no thanks, I've seen them all before". We both smiled and he walked on. :O•-:


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## lehi (Sep 13, 2007)

I don't care how any of you put it. Even if there is a grey area in what he was doing, he has a normal valid license and he is helping his little kid out. Who gives a ****! Sounds like the CO ruined a fun family time for you guys.


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## Jeremy28 (Dec 1, 2007)

Although its true that, just as in any profession, there are nice officers and then there are nit-picky jerks. I would understand if it was for fishing with bait in a lure only lake or something of that sort but to accuse a father with his kids of using two poles when he's obviously out with his kid(s) is out of line and i would say he's closer to the nit-picky jerk category even though he didn't give a ticket. Obviously, it was a gray area regardless of what he saw just because there were kids there so i think he shouldn't have said anything other than to remind him what the regulations are instead of making any accusations. In my experiences with officers of any sort, most of them that let you go on anything like to make it sound like you're lucky and that you should be thankful or something to them even if you didn't do anything wrong, which is bullcrap. Its like when you get pulled over for 9 or 10 over the speed limit and they give you a warning and then slap you with a ticket for no seat-belt. You can't argue your case or they will give you the speeding ticket as well, so you have to tell the officer thanks and everything as if you're actually thankful that you got pulled over in the first place....its like "oh thank you so much officer i really appreciate this so much". Atleast you get to flip them off when they turn their back and walk away to regain a little dignity, and hopefully thats what the original poster did to the fish and game guy. I know there are alot of good guys out there that are officers of any sort but in my opinion, just to want to be one means you're more than likely a prick. I mean, why would anyone want to be someone who's for surely going to make people pay money for ridiculous things unless you're a little on the pricky side. Just my opinion.


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## KennyC (Apr 28, 2010)

It seems to me and my experiences that they should be checking what and how many people are keeping and claiming. A small child will tell you in a heart beat if they caught a fish but some adults will try and divide the catch up so they look like they are not breaking the law. In my case I even told the officer that if my wife was fishing she would not be using a BATMAN pole, she would be using one that I had set up and bought her. Of course he gave me a justification it doesn't matter what type of pole it is and with a smirk said he could see where I was coming from being my son was wearing his cape! I really think that if you are trying to follow the law and are pollite you will only get a warning, but if you come off with an attitude and start quoting the book you maybe walking on thin ice. Best thing to do is do what you think is right. My wife has been questioned 2x's living here in Utah and both times she was in the wrong and the situation was resolved by listening and being honest. One time I thought she was screwed because she thought she had her Lic. and infact it was left at home. We were told he could look it up in the system and if he found that she didn't have a Lic then he would send the citation to her. No citation sent because the Lic. did exist. Now I keep a close eye on the wife and the kids are self sustaining.


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## gwailow (Jan 20, 2008)

Jeremy28 said:


> I know there are alot of good guys out there that are officers of any sort but in my opinion, just to want to be one means you're more than likely a prick. I mean, why would anyone want to be someone who's for surely going to make people pay money for ridiculous things unless you're a little on the pricky side. Just my opinion.


Yep, they're all pricks every last one of them....especially those who have died protecting you and everyone else's asses over the last couple of months.


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

I have to first say that I haven't ran into a jerk of a CO up here yet. I have in Louisiana but I lived there much longer. I think a lot of those guys are idiots just like cops they have that badge and if they are having a bad day they can take it out on you and you can't do anything about it. I think it is stupid for him to even question you on this, I mean you are out with you kids!! 

On the other hand I'm glad they are out there, I can't tell you how many questions about an area I've asked them and gotten good answeres. I was hunting last year and didn't know I needed a HIP number every year even though my hunting licsence was good for another month, they just told me to get a number before I came back out. I have to say I like the COs out here they have all been really good. I think we need to understand that if you have to go up to people and ask for licinces and stuff you can't show any weakness so your going to come off as if you have a little bit of attitude. I know they have some jerks out there but I'll deal with the jerk when I bump into them. Till then I meet every one of those guys with a smile just like any other person on the water and I like seeing them because I know they are keeping the guys who don't obey the law in check, I have a much bigger problem with poachers than the officers!!!

Staying calm is the key though and just asking them back why you are wrong I've found is the best way to handle it. If he said he could write you a ticket, just ask what would the ticket be for? Your helping your son!!
I do the same thing with my wife, a lot of time she can't cast far enough so I'll grab her pole and cast it for her and show her how to work the bait, then I'll give it back to here. I guess you could say I'm fishing with 2 poles. I've done this right in front of a CO. If he gives me a ticket I'll just take the ticket and say well, if you want to give me a ticket for helping to get a new person involved with the sport that is fine. I know I did nothing wrong and I can pay this ticket off, you'll never get it off your conscience! The next time out I'll still help my wife fish and if you want to give me another ticket your only screwing yourself.


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## Dagwood (May 12, 2010)

I agree with all the previous posters who said the most important thing is to stay cool 8) 

Just like when dealing with cops, stay cool, keep your mouth shut, and let the lawyers do their job in court, if it comes to that.

The last run in I had with Fish n' game went like this. I was steelhead fishing in a stretch of river that is artificial and barbless only. I was using a home made silver spoon (steelies cant resist them lol) and fishing alone. I was fishing a hole across the river directly under a weeping willow tree... this required delicate casting for sure. Anyhow, I cast across and wouldn't ya know it, I got snagged in some tree roots, and right at that same moment a game warden shows up out of nowhere. They are so sneaky! Like ninjas! He immediately assumed I had got snagged on purpose so he couldn't check my hooks and insisted that I unsnag it immediately, or he was going to write me a ticket anyhow. He also assured me that if I cut it off he would ticket me as well. After unsuccessfully trying to retrieve my spoon few a few very uncomfortable minutes, he said he was going to call in his partner who would go to the other side of the river and get my spoon. Great! Those are real silver and I made them myself, I want it back! I stayed cool and calm, assured him it was barbless, and asked if his partner would throw it back to this side after checking it. He told me he would be back and went on his merry way.... no ticket! And he never did return.


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## hockey (Nov 7, 2007)

I read your original post a couple times and I am having trouble sympathizing with you. 1st you said you were losing your cool and the officer told you to settle down. 2nd I'm sure your 5yr old was not sitting by his pole the entire 45min, my guess is he was running around and playing the majority of the time and the officers perception was you were fishing with 2 poles. 3rd if your family got upset it was from you getting upset not anything the officer did. 4th sounds like the officer was doing his job
Just my .02 cents from reading your report


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## .45 (Sep 21, 2007)

I've never had any issue's with fish cops...I buy a license, abide by the law, follow the rules and behave myself.......just like a good little boy should. 

However, the brother....he don't have any good luck at all. The kids are always leaving the old man to fend for himself.


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## silverkitten73 (Sep 20, 2007)

I think I know which CO you were dealing with. He isn't necessarily an ass - he just has a very poor approach as to how he talks to people. He has ticketed me once where I was in the wrong - but it was a pure accident. Then he called me last fall to say that I was hunting on private property. This is an area that I have hunted in for years - at least three decades - and the place has never had a a single no trespass sign and has a public road leading right up to it. As I was listening to him tell me all of this on the phone - he had his radio playing in the background, and was talking to another person in his vehicle while trying to give me a warning. 

Bottom line - this guy is tactless and needs some mentoring to help him develop solid interpersonal skills. He is also as lazy as they come.


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## Troll (Oct 21, 2008)

hockey said:


> I read your original post a couple times and I am having trouble sympathizing with you. 1st you said you were losing your cool and the officer told you to settle down. 2nd I'm sure your 5yr old was not sitting by his pole the entire 45min, my guess is he was running around and playing the majority of the time and the officers perception was you were fishing with 2 poles. 3rd if your family got upset it was from you getting upset not anything the officer did. 4th sounds like the officer was doing his job
> Just my .02 cents from reading your report


Law says within 100' if you can see your pole. So if the kid was within 100' of his pole and could see it, running around or not, the law was not broken.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

I will stay out of the discussion on the personal attributes of the CO and "fault" here, but I will say this. I do like to take my kids fishing with me from time to time and have found that a second rod permit is a great help to insure that the kids can still have fun if they would rather wander off and throw rocks in the water or something else and still keep us clearly legal. As any dad knows, if a fish is caught on "their" rod, THEY have personally caught the fish, even if they were far away when it bit. It just helps to keep it fun for all.


This is not the first time I have heard complaints like this from parents with kids and the "second rod permit" issue. Maybe this is a regulation that should be adjusted. (by making the powers that be know that the current enforcement is possibly turning off kids (and parents with kids) trying to enjoy fishing outings.) Without our kids taking up the sport, there will be no future to it. The DWR certainly DOES give at least lip service to wanting to make fishing family and kid friendly.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

The worst thing is when you have to explain to the kids, (in this case my daughter) that the fish she just caught has to be set free. When she loves to eat fish. I've seen her cry more times than not about having to release slot fish at Strawberry. I still get a big grin on my face just thinking about it.  She has finally learned, but it is still funny. Second pole permit still the best way to go.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

horsesma said:


> The worst thing is when you have to explain to the kids, (in this case my daughter) that the fish she just caught has to be set free. When she loves to eat fish. I've seen her cry more times than not about having to release slot fish at Strawberry. I still get a big grin on my face just thinking about it.  She has finally learned, but it is still funny. Second pole permit still the best way to go.


Thats why IMO stawberry is a poor place to take kids. Take them somewhere where they can keep a couple fish, you will hook them quicker on fishing if they can bring something home.

-DallanC


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

One more side note.

Don't think that the DWR Employees, including CO's don't read these posts.
I know for a fact that many of them do.

This is one of the places that the DWR goes to, to evaluate how their programs are working.

They do listen to what the public has to say.


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## Leaky (Sep 11, 2007)

silverkitten73 ,
Hummmmmmm, don't sound good about this individual.  Sounds like he needs a discussion with his superiors!!!!! Do you think it will happen? Does someone with first hand experience need to do something. If it were me and had a bad experience with this guy, I would be doing some calling, letter writing, or at least make sure they view this thread. I don't want to "hang this guy" w/o the "other side being voiced, but, ------, if it needs attention then lets "get er done". Personally, I have never, repeat, never had a bad experience with any of these folks and that speaks volumes for me.  In fact, even when I screwed up on some minor offenses because of innocent oversights, they have cut me a break, even when technically I could have gotten a ticket, etc.  Maybe they felt sorry for an "old geezer"? :lol:


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

If you guys think the state CO's are sticklers you should go duck hunting and deal with the Federal Wildlife Officers, you will be in for a real treat. :roll: :O•
My favorite is when they drove up in their airboat and started doing donuts in the middle of my decoys and blew them out of the water and onto the shore. They were laughing the entire time.


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## Leaky (Sep 11, 2007)

Fowlmouth,

WOW, really???? Tell us more. Did you submit a report/complaint? Any response?


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

Fowlmouth said:


> If you guys think the state CO's are sticklers you should go duck hunting and deal with the Federal Wildlife Officers, you will be in for a real treat. :roll: :O•
> My favorite is when they drove up in their airboat and started doing donuts in the middle of my decoys and blew them out of the water and onto the shore. They were laughing the entire time.


I'd have to see that to believe it, not calling anyone a liar. If they ever do that to me I will be talking with them in person and then talking to their boss, in person!! 
I think those guys usually handle people the way they think they need to handle them. If you look like a punk, they are going to be a bigger punk to you, if you look like a guy out there trying to have a good safe time, they will treat you the same way.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Leaky said:


> Fowlmouth,
> 
> WOW, really???? Tell us more. Did you submit a report/complaint? Any response?


Yep, true story........... Nope never submitted a report, I just talked to the state CO that was watching from his truck. I think he was surprised by what he saw as well.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

[quote="hoghunter011583[/quote]
If you look like a punk, they are going to be a bigger punk to you, if you look like a guy out there trying to have a good safe time, they will treat you the same way.[/quote]

I was just on the shore of the GSL for a day of duck hunting and I certainly didn't do anything out of the ordinary, I guess that was reason enough for them. :roll:


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## hoghunter011583 (Jul 21, 2008)

Fowlmouth said:


> [quote="hoghunter011583


If you look like a punk, they are going to be a bigger punk to you, if you look like a guy out there trying to have a good safe time, they will treat you the same way.[/quote]

I was just on the shore of the GSL for a day of duck hunting and I certainly didn't do anything out of the ordinary, I guess that was reason enough for them. :roll:[/quote]

I would surely had them in hot water if you also had a CO for a witness!! Guys like that don't need to be enforcement officers.


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## flyfish1096 (Oct 9, 2009)

When I take My kids fishing I don't take my gear with me so I don't run into this problem. Plus I can focus my attention on what my kids are doing since small children don't have the attention span at times to fish especially when the fishing is slow.


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## Jigz (Sep 30, 2007)

Just to clarify a bit, I was very calm and collected the entire time up until he started getting "snooty" to me. I have great respect for these folks, and like many of you have never had a single problem with them until this trip. I always follow the law and thought that I was doing just that. 
I will admit that I did get a little heated, A LITTLE, but that was only because of the way he was addressing me. If someone treats me with little respect I will do my best to take the high road. One thing I didn't mention was the duration of this whole conversation. It was a good 20 minutes, and a man can only stand so much garbage piling on him before he starts hating the smell.
Had he given me a ticket I would most certainly fight it as the only intention I had that day was to get these kids some good memories and get them into some fish.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

Did you catch his name by chance? Most of the CO's around here are very easy going and will not be like this unless they have a good reason(combative encounter).


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## OKEE (Jan 3, 2008)

Game wardens , police officers are winless jobs people will complain when they do their jobs and when they don't. Some can be real jerks but so can alot of people when it comes to law inforcement. I can see how some officers get a chip on their shoulders working with the public all day. 
second pole permit might save some hassel when it comes to kids fishing.


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## phantom (Sep 13, 2007)

No one ever does anything wrong, and always has a good attitude with the officers. Also, no one ever commits a foul in the NBA. 

Just sayin.


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

OKEE said:


> Game wardens , police officers are winless jobs people will complain when they do their jobs and when they don't. Some can be real jerks but so can alot of people when it comes to law inforcement. I can see how some officers get a chip on their shoulders working with the public all day.
> second pole permit might save some hassel when it comes to kids fishing.


Great post, but I disagree with having to get a second pole permit just so you don't get hassled. I don't fish enough to warrant a second pole permit and I am sure as hell not going to stop taking my boy out fishing because of a fear of being questioned about me helping get my kid get hooked into fishing. JMO


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## cheech (Sep 25, 2007)

Sounds like you got "educated" and let off with a warning. Sounds like a good deal to me.


All you fellas that hate law enforcement probably have "reasons" why. If he was truly disrespectful, a quick call in to his supervisor should handle that, however, if you know that you were the one that instigated the snootiness, you may not have a foot to stand on. 

You have to realize that the LEO really has no idea what they are running into every time they make contact with the public. If you give attitude, you better believe that the LEO isn't just going to walk away and tell you that you are right...

These grey areas are why I didn't want to go into Fish & Game. Plus it mixes too many hobbies with work.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

I just saw this post for the first time and I find the whole situation ridiculous. I agree with whomever addressed the second pole permit as a hokey tax. You can only keep so many fish by law. Who cares if you catch 4 fish on 1 rod or 4 fish on 4 rods? Also, anyone who is enforcing the law should know the law. Kids get to fish free in our state. Kids need help from parents. Dads therefore help their kids while out fishing. 1+1=2. It's a pretty simple equation. 

On the other hand, I've never had a negative experience with an officer while out hunting or fishing. I spoke briefly to one gentleman while out turkey hunting this spring and he had a friendly smile and good attitude. I couldn't have felt better about the short visit we had. I had my two small children with me and he reminded me to grab their coats for our hike because the canyon gets cold at night. Great advice and thanks for looking out for my kids!


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

BirdDogger said:


> I just saw this post for the first time and I find the whole situation ridiculous. I agree with whomever addressed the second pole permit as a hokey tax. You can only keep so many fish by law. Who cares if you catch 4 fish on 1 rod or 4 fish on 4 rods? Also, anyone who is enforcing the law should know the law. Kids get to fish free in our state. Kids need help from parents. Dads therefore help their kids while out fishing. 1+1=2. It's a pretty simple equation.
> 
> The problem is that it isn't that easy.
> I have witnessed a man who brought 3 kids to the pond with him. The kids were all under the age of 12 and probably all under 10.
> ...


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

I appreciate this being posted, I have wondered about that before and have apparently been guilty of doing the same thing. I now know to make them be more active in the fishing of put their pole away.


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## Catherder (Aug 2, 2008)

Grandpa D said:


> The problem is that it isn't that easy.
> I have witnessed a man who brought 3 kids to the pond with him. The kids were all under the age of 12 and probably all under 10.
> The adult [father] would cast out 4 lines on 4 rods and then reel in every fish on every pole that was with them. The kids were not happy about it but they had no say ion the matter.
> They left with 4 limits of fish.
> ...


This is indeed exactly why the CO's are enforcing these regs as they do. The question I have is this. The little kids have to go and be with their dad, even if daddy is doing most of the fishing "work". And more than likely, the kids are having a fair bit of fun too, unless dad is being a total jerk. The good fishing memories the kids have will likely translate into more interest to fish in the future, when they are older and buy licenses. Why not loosen up how the regs are being enforced so the parents can show the kids a good time and the CO doesn't have to sit and watch for a lengthy period of time to try and determine "intent" and "excessive helping" by a family fishing together. I struggle to see how a parent and little kids will keep so many fish while angling together that it will endanger the resource.

I am not a lawyer, but maybe placing language in the regs explaining that an adult fishing with a young child in close proximity is allowed to fish with 2 rods in a manner identical to having a second rod permit without having to purchase the second rod license. I would think that would be easier for the CO to enforce too.


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## xxxxxxBirdDogger (Mar 7, 2008)

> The problem is that it isn't that easy.
> I have witnessed a man who brought 3 kids to the pond with him. The kids were all under the age of 12 and probably all under 10.
> The adult [father] would cast out 4 lines on 4 rods and then reel in every fish on every pole that was with them. The kids were not happy about it but they had no say ion the matter.
> They left with 4 limits of fish.
> ...


But that wasn't the situation as described in this post. I'm completely with catherder on this one. Let families have fun together as long as nobody is taking home more than their legally fair share. 
I have two kids that I take fishing all the time. My 3 year old will fish with me all day. No problem. My 5 year old wants to run around, explore, and throw rocks. She comes running only when her rod has a fish on. Guess who's left sitting with an extra pole at times? Guess who sets the hook? It would be easy to tell me to just let her reel anything in on my rod and leave hers out of the game. You try telling my girl she can't have her Barbie pole in the water if us boys are fishing.


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## Windage (Mar 11, 2010)

The fish cop watches you fish and thinks he sees a violation so he comes over to investigate, which is what hes is suppose to do. He asks questions, it sounds like maybe you get defensive and by your statement get upset. And then he tells you to calm down and that hes not going to cite you? I can see why your ticked. Sarcasm implied. I wonder how the fish cop would describe your incident and your behavior and if it might be different from your explanation. I've been checked by Fish cops while hunting and fishing and have always found them to be professional. If you think you can do his job better then him then do it.


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## 280Remington (Jun 2, 2008)

I guess I have a whole different take on this situation. It is important to remember the purpose of community ponds or urban fisheries. Their sole purpose is to get people fishing. People that may not have the financial means or time to drive four hours round trip to a place such as Strawberry or Scofield. These urban ponds are not unlike a social services program similar to an inner city basketball court or baseball diamond. They are for urban folks to recreate that might not otherwise be able to. With that being said, I felt it appalling that DWR conservation officers pound these community ponds as much as they do.

Think about this for a minute. Every minute a DWR conservation officer spends dinking around a community pond making sure some 3 year old and his father are properly fishing, is less time that conservation officer is up at Strawberry checking slot limit violations or checking to see if people aren't clubbing to death spawning cutthroats or up in the mountains making sure someone isn't poaching a trophy big game animal. 

In a nutshell cops like to sweat the small stuff. Busting grandparents or fathers at community ponds for trying to do the right thing is small potatoes. DWR conservation officers that spend their time fretting over what happens at fake urban ponds is the same as police officers that are crossing guards or traffic cops. Meanwhile drug deals are going down and people are being raped and murdered...


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## Grandpa D (Sep 7, 2007)

DWR Officers have areas to patrol.
A Weber County CO isn't going to be patroling Strawberry.

What is the difference between breaking the law at a Community Pond or another body of water that is farther away from an urban population?

I thought that they were all under the samy laws and regulations.


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## 280Remington (Jun 2, 2008)

Gramps
I realize DWR Conservation Officers have their specific areas. I never said a CO assigned to Weber County would be at Strawberry. But a conservation officer assigned to Weber County could be patrolling Birch Creek, Causey, Woodruff, the Ogden River, etc., but instead they are staking out Glassman's Pond and community ponds around Roy. 

Conservation officers are spread thin enough. Talk to anyone of them they will all say the same thing, there are not enough of them. They can't catch the large scale poaching rings or the hardcore offenders if they are patrolling a cement pond stocked with 9" hatchery fish somewhere along the Wasatch Front. 

It is a matter of resources and allocating personnel. I would much rather have my tax dollars spent on a conservation officer's salary that has more important things to worry about than busting a grandma or parent at a community fishing pond for "assisting" a three year old!!!!


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## jahan (Sep 7, 2007)

Grandpa D said:


> DWR Officers have areas to patrol.
> A Weber County CO isn't going to be patroling Strawberry.
> 
> What is the difference between breaking the law at a Community Pond or another body of water that is farther away from an urban population?
> ...


My point that I feel you are missing is this, first the law is very vague and in my opinion hard to enforce unless it is blatant. Second, why should it be so difficult to try and get your child into fishing, why should I have to worry about getting a second pole permit when trying to help my son so I don't have to worry about potentially getting a ticket for doing nothing wrong?

I agree with what you say about all laws should be enforced from community ponds to large lakes. I also agree there are people who clearly don't allow there child to fish and reel in their fish and do it all, that is unfortunate in my opinion. My boy is three, loves to fish, but has about a five second attention span. He may wander a little bit, but I always make sure he is within sight distance and generally within 50 feet. I will set the hook for him, but he reels it in on his own. I take it off the hook for him, I bait his hook, I cast, I do everything but reel it in, am I breaking the law?

Also I respect all CO's and I haven't personally ever had a bad experience, had some interesting experiences, but never a bad one.


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