# Blackcloud? Hevi Steel? What is the best?



## deadduck (Jul 21, 2009)

I have been using Winchester Xpert Velocity for the past couple years of duck hunting, and it has been a good shell. I have been hearing a lot about hevi steel, blackcloud, and the extrememely expensive hevi shot.

I want to try either using blackcloud or hevi steel this year, to see if if really gives me more range and more birds in my blind. 

I have never used these shells, and wanted others opinions on their expereince, and if these shells are worth the high price???????


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

Don't pay up. If you can't hit them you can't hit them. If you want to reach out and touch them from distance get a ten gauge. :wink:


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## stucknmud (Dec 2, 2008)

I'm a huge fan of black cloud 3 1/2" #4 for ducks and BB for geese. I was using kent fast steel which I like but I found black cloud to be more accurate at long ranges. I went up spanish fork canyon to some land I own and setup four large target's at 10,20,30,40 yards and found the pattern to be pretty close to the same at 10 and 20 yards but past 20 yards the kent started falling apart but the black cloud kept a pretty tight pattern all the way to the 40. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to discount Kent shells because they will get the job done but if I were to recommend a shell it would be black cloud.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

If you want to reach out and touch them, you need to go with hevi shot. Black cloud is steel pellets, just like everything else out there. Hevi steel is a watered down version of hevi shot that is made up mostly of steel. Hevi shot goose or remington HD are by far the best shells you can buy. If you're going to limit your choice between black cloud and hevi steel. Hevi steel is the better shell if you can get it to pattern well out of your guns.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

Dead Duck, your best bet is to buy a few boxes of shells in your price range and pattern them out at distances you want to shoot. Every shotgun, even the exact model reacts to the same shells differently.

IMHO, Black-Cloud, Hevi-Steel, etc is a waste of money. 

I would say if you want more birds in the blind, get yourself a quality choke (Patternmaster, Briley, ETC) and shoot quality shells (KENT's, Remington, Federal) and spend time at the trap/skeet range. If a guy spent enough time at the trap range, he could hunt with a 4-10 and out shoot a guy with a ten bore and hevi-steel. I have seen it done :mrgreen:


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## hairy1 (Sep 10, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Dead Duck, your best bet is to buy a few boxes of shells in your price range and pattern them out at distances you want to shoot. Every shotgun, even the exact model reacts to the same shells differently.
> 
> IMHO, Black-Cloud, Hevi-Steel, etc is a waste of money.
> 
> I would say if you want more birds in the blind, get yourself a quality choke (Patternmaster, Briley, ETC) and shoot quality shells (KENT's, Remington, Federal) and spend time at the trap/skeet range. If a guy spent enough time at the trap range, he could hunt with a 4-10 and out shoot a guy with a ten bore and hevi-steel. I have seen it done :mrgreen:


+1


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

I agree with what has been said.

At optimal ranges (20-40 yards), if you shoot straight, it really shouldn't matter what type of shell you use if it is it's patterning effectively in your gun and shot size is within reason for payload delivery.

If your considering long bomb, roll the dice, pull the arm on the slot machine, type shots, go with the ultimate long bomb killer......DEAD COYOTE. Lobbing .21 caliber pellets in on birds, if one or more pellets hits wing bones or vitals it should put it down and keep it down.
Kind of expensive to lob .21 caliber hevi shot pellets at things at great distances, with random return, but if you were to take bomb shots at stuff rather than decoy, jump shoot, or pass shoot at reasonable distances, might as well shoot some big stuff that will deliver the energy at those great distances.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

I went through this last year with my guns. Before I got my Benelli Super Nova i was using my BPS to hunt ducks. Hadn't gotten much shooting, but hadn't hit a thing. I went out more frequently after I got my Benelli. For a few times out I shot the factory chokes and found that they didn't pattern very well with the 3" Xperts and Federals that I was using. I bought myself 2 Carlson's choke tubes for steel, and have been very happy with the results shooting the Federals. Maybe its just my gun, but it seems to like the choke/shell combo I have chosen.

As a side note, you really should open up an Xpert and take a look at the shot inside it. Its all deformed and some of the pellets even have sharp points on them. Deformed shot doesn't pattern well generally, or at least not as good as uniform shot will. I don't like the stuff, and won't buy any more after I shoot up what I have. 

As for the Black Cloud- the wad in those shells will hold your pattern tighter longer, which translates to more knock-down power at further distances. Regardless of this feature, it is still steel shot, and loses energy VERY quickly, even if the pattern is tight. This means wounded birds if it weren't for the gnarly saturn-looking pellets (flight stopper), which can actually tear birds up pretty badly. 

As was mentioned before, Hevi-shot is probably the way to go if you want to add an extra ten or maybe 15 yards of distance to your shots. The metal used for the shot is more dense, and thus carries energy further than steel. These babies are expensive though, and I certainly won't be buying any soon. I'd rather get the birds a bit closer, and not worry about it costing me $4 every time I pull the trigger.

In summary- test a few different shot/choke combinations with your gun, and see which one patterns best at the ranges you feel most comfortable shooting. Do this on paper, and then move it to the trap field to get your practice. If a long range Patternmaster and T sized Hevi-shot do the trick, and you can afford it, by all means, go for it.


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## deadduck (Jul 21, 2009)

This is good to know, I too have the Benelli Supernova. What are the names of the Carlson choke tubes that you are using?


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

1BandMan said:


> If your considering long bomb, roll the dice, pull the arm on the slot machine, type shots, go with the ultimate long bomb killer......DEAD COYOTE. Lobbing .21 caliber pellets in on birds, if one or more pellets hits wing bones or vitals it should put it down and keep it down.
> Kind of expensive to lob .21 caliber hevi shot pellets at things at great distances, with random return, but if you were to take bomb shots at stuff rather than decoy, jump shoot, or pass shoot at reasonable distances, might as well shoot some big stuff that will deliver the energy at those great distances.


Dead coyote was design for killing coyotes, not ducks.  There are so few pellets in the pattern (40 vs 200 for a typical steel load), your chances of hitting a bird at long range are horrible. If you win the lottery and hit one, it will be like shooting it with .22 and will bring it down. Use hevi shot #4 will kill ducks and geese out to 100 yards and you get 140 pellets in your pattern. Leave T shot for dear and varmits. Even the BB and #2 hevi shot is overkill for waterfowl. If you reload you can reload hevi shot for a little more than $1 a shell. Your Fed Power Shock are running darn near $1 a shell.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

I shoot all my geese and swans with 3 1/2" Black Cloud BBB's. They fold, no questions. Walmart clearanced them out for $14 a box in the spring. I bought a case.


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> I shoot all my geese and swans with 3 1/2" Black Cloud BBB's. They fold, no questions. Walmart clearanced them out for $14 a box in the spring. I bought a case.


I cashed in on this clearance too. YES!!

My only experience with black cloud has been that it is absolutely lethal, even at the fringe range of 45 yds. It is the ONLY load that I have seen that had an EXIT wound, even at 45 yds. Having said that, I am wary of using it up close or for something as small as a duck.

As far as big birds go, were a kill is imperative, give it a try. Paying full price for 1 box of Black Cloud to satisfy your curiousity will not disappoint, nor hurt the wallet. As far as small birds go, it's a killer for sure, but it also tears the meat up.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Blackcloud is a lot of money for just plain old steel with a fancy name. Like has been said, if you are shooting them with in your capable shooting range Plain old steel works just fine. It just boils down to how much you want to pay for it. Now if you want shot with a higher density hevi-steel provides that. Its density is about 9 where steel is 7.86. Of course with any load find the one that patterns the best and provides enough ed or meets the 600fps rule to the range you plan on shooting your birds with your gun and shooting skills.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

toasty said:


> Dead coyote was design for killing coyotes, not ducks. .


Maybe so but if you gun patterns them decent and you can shoot; they are destructive on geese and swans, kind of overkill on ducks, but they do make great feather clouds at close range. :lol: don't to forgot to take them out when you slip one in for a goose, don't use it, and then use it on a teal over the decoys like I did once.

Kent's tunsten matrix is a hard hitting load but exspensive. I like the Remignton HD's I've used too. I tried the 3" #3 blackclouds and liked those too.

I shoot most of my ducks with 3" 3's mostly experts and kent's.


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## Ryfly (Sep 13, 2007)

I won't ever shoot Blackcloud for ducks again. If all you want to do is kill them then fine but they tear the meat up so bad that I won't shoot them. 

I have great luck with Kent 3" 1 1/8 #2's with my factory Mod. choke. I've patterend it and it works great. If the ducks are in normal ranges and I can shoot straight then they will be dropping. Like others have said your shooting ability and choke/load combo will have a greater impact on the number of dead birds than anything.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Mojo1 said:


> Maybe so but if you gun patterns them decent and you can shoot; they are destructive on geese and swans, kind of overkill on ducks, but they do make great feather clouds at close range. :lol: don't to forgot to take them out when you slip one in for a goose, don't use it, and then use it on a teal over the decoys like I did once.
> 
> Kent's tunsten matrix is a hard hitting load but exspensive. I like the Remignton HD's I've used too. I tried the 3" #3 blackclouds and liked those too.
> 
> I shoot most of my ducks with 3" 3's mostly experts and kent's.


Why would you want to use T shot (40 pellets) with an effective range to 200 yards, when you can use #4 (150 pellets that patterns just as well) and kill ducks/geese to 100 yards (A lot farther than anyone can shoot ethically). I really don't understand what situation you would be in to call for dead coyote on birds? Are you patterning this stuff at 40 yards and expecting to shoot geese at 40 yards? If so why would you use a pellet that can kill to 200 yards at 40 yards? I know it will kill birds, but so will a cannon, that doesn't make it a good idea. It is the same stuff as armor piercing bullets. It's not safe in the marsh and other states have banned anything bigger than BBB for waterfowl and Utah should do the same before someone gets killed. Why don't we just call it "Skybuster's Rule"?


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

:roll: 

BECAUSE I CAN!!!!!!

Further I'm not a UTRAD, I have enought sense not to shoot it towards others, unlike most of the hunters out in the marsh.

I know my limits when it comes to shooting and stay within them, I do pretty good at killing what I shoot at too.

If you want really want to stop skybusting put a 25 shell limit into effect, that slows them down a lot more than limiting the shot size, those idiots will shoot whatever they have with them.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

toasty said:


> 1BandMan said:
> 
> 
> > If your considering long bomb, roll the dice, pull the arm on the slot machine, type shots, go with the ultimate long bomb killer......DEAD COYOTE. Lobbing .21 caliber pellets in on birds, if one or more pellets hits wing bones or vitals it should put it down and keep it down.
> ...


Oh contraire. I've patterned Coyote at 50 yards and 25-30 pellets remain in a 30 inch circle with my Wad Wizzard. If we had more people in the marsh shooting Dead Coyote, there may not be as many people period ( I know I'd stay home) with Dead Coyote those .21 caliber pellets are still lethal past 100 yards and would still cause damage out to 175.

I don't know the balistics for #4 hevi at 100 yards, but I know Coyote would still have plenty of punch. I don't know how many pellets would be on target at a duck or goose with Coyote at 100 yards, nor do I know how many pellets would be on target with #4's for that matter. There would probably be more #4's but I hate the odds for either of them.

Bottom line, shooting past 40 yards isn't the best idea, period so why shoot anything more or what will cost you more to get the job done, unless I guess your trying to impress someone.

Shredding ducks with Black Cloud or blowing large holes with Coyote isn't the best idea either....at least for those who were planning on truely harvesting their game. For those who planned the trash can rather than the table for their birds, it doesn't really matter.

Again, shoot within 40 yards and your good to go either way with the correct shell that costs much less, that will also put birds down for good and on the table.

Use the "KISS" method as much and as often as you possibly can. It makes sense and will usually keep you happy. 3" #3's were known for the longest time to be the best overall duck load there is. You cannot, however, assume this is true in your gun and I would pattern them just the same to make sure.


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## Blue Steel (Sep 29, 2007)

My Uncle bought a couple of boxes of 3" 3 shot. After examining the aftermath we both came to the conclusion that Blackcloud is a little too good on ducks. It really tore them up, on the other hand, It really does a number on Geese.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

deadduck said:


> This is good to know, I too have the Benelli Supernova. What are the names of the Carlson choke tubes that you are using?


They are the Carlson's Choke Tubes for Steel. They work great with lead too. I shot a few boxes of light loads through them today, and I gotta say, they do a great job.

I actually put a pattern on cardboard today with the full choke and a couple different steel loads. A 3.5 Xpert BB, a 3" B.C. #2, and a 3" Federal #2. At 40 yards, the patterns of the BC and Feds were VERY similar, and what I would consider pretty dense (Put a 30 inch circle around it and 90% were inside that circle). The Xpert was no where near that good, with only around 70% in the same sized circle. The one thing I did notice, was that the BC DEFINITELY left larger holes in the cardboard than the Federal, even though the shot sizes were the same. Those little Flightstopper pellets for sure cut bigger wound channels. After seeing this, I won't be using the BC for ducks. Only geese or swans. The regular Federal steel does a great job on ducks, without tearing them up.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

Chaser said:


> I went through this last year with my guns. Before I got my Benelli Super Nova i was using my BPS to hunt ducks. Hadn't gotten much shooting, but hadn't hit a thing. I went out more frequently after I got my Benelli. For a few times out I shot the factory chokes and found that they didn't pattern very well with the 3" Xperts and Federals that I was using. I bought myself 2 Carlson's choke tubes for steel, and have been very happy with the results shooting the Federals. Maybe its just my gun, but it seems to like the choke/shell combo I have chosen.
> 
> *As a side note, you really should open up an Xpert and take a look at the shot inside it. Its all deformed and some of the pellets even have sharp points on them. Deformed shot doesn't pattern well generally, or at least not as good as uniform shot will. I don't like the stuff, and won't buy any more after I shoot up what I have. *
> 
> ...


Fyi Im not calling you a liar but I have heard many people say this and I have cut open a few different xperts and gutted many birds shot with xpert and they all were nice and round. On the other hand I cut open a hevi-steel last fall and it was all different shaped and lots looked like mickey mouse. When asking somebody about it who only shoots hevishot or hevisteel they said its been the same for them and its cause it flies better that way. Im not a physics major but I would believe the round bb would fly better.

The reason I like black cloud is the weight and the speed of the shell. I like getting the heaviest shot possible and shooting it as fast as I can. A big problem I see with the people who switch between shells depending on what is coming into there decoys is they change from shooting 1250 fps to 1600fps so your lead/jerk would need to change.


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## CHESMAN (May 8, 2008)

Hey I noticed you mentioned that you possibly reload. The guy I hunt with and I recently bought a reloader and are going to do some and I was wondering if I could call you and get some advice on some recipes and where to order supplies, I not sure where to start. If you wouldn't mind, call me at 801-651-6071 Marc.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

> Im not a physics major but I would believe the round bb would fly better.


Round objects actually loose speed faster and accuracy due to the drag caused buy their roundness. Simple way of looking at it is to look at a round ball shot out of a muzzle loader and then look at conical bullets shot out of a muzzle loader. The round balls slow down way fast and due to the shape have no accuracy where a conical bullet spinning through the air is more aerodynamic, and the spinning helps keep the flight path true.

The only way to increase the ability of a round object to fly longer and straighter is to increase its density. That is why hevi shot at a density of 12 grams per cubic centimeter as apposed to steel which is 7.86 grams per cubic centimeter has the ability to hold its patterns and size to size penetration further out.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

But a conical will slow way faster if it goes end over end correct? And since we are talking about a smooth bore shotgun barrel not a rifled muzzleloader barrel the blob shaped bb's coming out of the barrel would slow faster and more likely become fly aways correct?


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

deadicatedweim said:


> But a conical will slow way faster if it goes end over end correct? And since we are talking about a smooth bore shotgun barrel not a rifled muzzleloader barrel the blob shaped bb's coming out of the barrel would slow faster and more likely become fly aways correct?


Of course it will slow down and lose accuracy if it tumbles.

I can show you my patterns out of my 870 using Hevi-shot that put 92% of the pellets on the 30" target at 40 yds, from a MOD choke no less.

What *MAY* cause fly-aways due to it's irregular shape, is made up in straight up crushing power.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

deadicatedweim said:


> But a conical will slow way faster if it goes end over end correct? And since we are talking about a smooth bore shotgun barrel not a rifled muzzleloader barrel the blob shaped bb's coming out of the barrel would slow faster and more likely become fly aways correct?


It all really depends on the amount of surface area and the density of the object. Its funny how bad hevi shot looks but yet it holds the world record for the still target champion ships for the NWTF competitions. A round object has a very large surface area, its not as bad as a flat surface but still its a very large area.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I'm not impressed with the black cloud., Why spend the extra money on those shells when you can stay with the Winchester experts and do as good as less the price. every time you pull the trigger there goes like 2.50 or 3.00 bucks out.


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## RJ-Max4 (Sep 11, 2007)

BLACK CLOUD.....

I'm buying some for this season, can't wait to give it a test run. 8)


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## travis madden (Sep 29, 2007)

If you shoot them where they are supposed to be then a regular 3 inch number 2 or 4 will do just fine


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> I'm not impressed with the black cloud., Why spend the extra money on those shells when you can stay with the Winchester experts and do as good as less the price. every time you pull the trigger there goes like 2.50 or 3.00 bucks out.


They have very impressive knock down power when shot out of the right choke combo for your gun.

Are they worth the extra money, it's a personel decision if you choose to shoot them but the fact I paid just $.40 cents a round for my black clouds, sure makes it easier for me :lol: I got 2 cases of them when they were on clearance.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

... o-||


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Just get the ducks,geese and swan in close and you won't have to worry about the extra knock down power. Get the right combo and you will be good to go. Also stop bouncing around from shells to shells. You stay with one brand and learn it and you will be fine.If you can buy the black cloud or hevi shot more power to you.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

:?:


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## RJ-Max4 (Sep 11, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> RJ-Max4 said:
> 
> 
> > BLACK CLOUD.....
> ...


Yeah I might have said some bad words about them when BC first hit the market & at $30 a box I wouldn't buy any shells. At the price I picked them up for, I don't mind giving them a try. I'll make sure to let you know how I like them! 8)


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

:idea:


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> RJ-Max4 said:
> 
> 
> > dkhntrdstn said:
> ...


You don't have to let me know how you like them.I could care less. But your buddy Joel will want to know. 8)[/quote:357kz5sa]

I am only posting to bolster Richards Ego. After all that is what I am here for. :roll:

Dustin how many BC shells have you shot? Of those 2-3 (that I gave to you and watched you shoot.) how many ducks did you hit with them? Could you please post up ANY real life data about your patterning tests with the BC, field results or anything other than second hand regurgitation?

Some folks swear by the BC. I didn't like the results when I tried them on ducks but would still like to try them on geese. I just can't bring myself to buy them when my $11/box Estate or Federals are working so well. I would say if you are interested in them, buy a box, pattern them on paper, then decide if you like the patterns. If you like them shoot 'em up.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

o-|| :roll: 

...is it october yet.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

:!:


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> where did I say that i have pattern my gun with them? No where. Yea i shot those one that you gave me and I was unpressed with them. Please I have talked to other people that have shot them and they where not happy with them ether. so you like them good for you.


Sorry I just assumed that when you post up; 


dkhntrdstn said:


> *I'm not impressed with the black cloud*., Why spend the extra money on those shells when you can stay with the Winchester experts and do as good as less the price.


you were speaking from first hand experience............2 shots without hitting a bird or a patterning board is considered first hand experience I guess.

Who needs October, arguing on the internet and boosting my post count is much more fun. Glad to see you around here again John. It seems like you haven't been around much lately.

PS Dustin it is good to see your wife typing your posts for you.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

:!:


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

post count leader said:


> EVERY BODY LISTON TO JOEL HE KNOW WHAT HE TALKING ABOUT. :roll:


You said it not me. :lol:


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

:!:


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

post count leader said:


> I just said so your head will be big as your buddy's. :mrgreen:


It worked! We now wear the exact same hat size.....that and I have a sweet new signature line! 8)


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

:!:


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## Donttreadonme (Sep 11, 2007)

post count leader said:


> I'm glad.


Me to.

See it was a win, win situation.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

This went south in a hurry :shock:


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

I would post up some black cloud carnage, but I'll leave the nay-sayer's in the dark instead. That's much funner on the forum topics.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

shotgunwill said:


> I would post up some black cloud carnage, but I'll leave the nay-sayer's in the dark instead. That's much funner on the forum topics.


I don't want carnage, I want dead geese and ducks. Oh I'm sure that if it shreads them that it also kills them, but I have this crazy thing about hunting and harvesting game that I eat what I shoot. I don't want the breast hanging off the bird until I have done so with a knife.

I've never shot Black Cloud so I definitely am not qualified to tell you how good or bad it is.

There have been a lot of discussion however about shooting Black Cloud that keeps getting revisited. I'm still at awe as to what the logic behind "super shells" are.

If the conical pellets shred meat and blows up the bird as it has been stated by some of the Black Cloud users over and over, its definitely not for me and I have troubles finding a reason why someone else would like thier birds ruined beyond eating unless they throw them in the garbage or leave them in the field or ditch or whatever to begin with.

I also don't like the idea of them being marketed as the solution to someone that cant/wont shoot them at reasonable distances (20-40 yards).

It's been stated several times several different ways, but if you can shoot straight you should be able to kill ducks and/or geese DEAD at 20-40 yards with a 20 gauge with #2 and #4 steel. I've seen it done at least 100's of times. 
If you suck at hitting your target, Black Cloud won't make a difference. You should be spending time at a trap range or otherwise improving your ability to hit what your shooting at and putting your pellets on target rather than purchasing "super shells." If you prefer shooting Black Cloud at the trap range, go for it.

OK, with the above mentioned said, what makes Black Cloud so much more adventageous over steel? I only see disadvantage if it blows your duck or goose up.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

hamernhonkers said:


> This went south in a hurry :shock:


Yes it did.
I have used BC for 2 years now on larger birds(geese and swans). Like someone else said, they are the only shells i have used that passed through a swan or goose at 40 yards. That is plain killing power. Never have or will use them on ducks.


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> I have used BC for 2 years now on larger birds(geese and swans). Like someone else said, they are the only shells i have used that passed through a swan or goose at 40 yards. That is plain killing power. Never have or will use them on ducks.


I said it lunker, thanks.

As I have stated before, it's about killing power. Yes, due to the nature and design of the pellet, it tears **** up. When a kill, is a MUST, I'll put my money on it. I've seen with my own eyes what it does.

You know, I usually cut the wound channels out of the bird's breast anyway. It really isn't that bad if the breast is already hanging off, less work right?

And if you are that worried about saving the meat, start ground pounding them with a rifle. But, why would you do that anyway, I hear ducks taste like mud.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> I have used BC for 2 years now on larger birds(geese and swans). Like someone else said, they are the only shells i have used that passed through a swan or goose at 40 yards. That is plain killing power. Never have or will use them on ducks.


Can someone please explain the how this miracle steel works?

It has a little ring that makes it tear up ducks and now claims that it passes through better than other steel shells. Which is it? You can't have both. Pass through is a function of a pellets energy divided by the cross sectional area of the pellet. The ring causes a larger frontal area and it has a lower energy for the pellet because it has less mass. The wad is design to hold tighter patterns, that would help in longer shots, but these cannot penetrate better than a steel pellet of the same size. It is directly contrary to ballistics and laws of physics. It may be a good shell, but it would be better without the "flight stopper" scam. If it really does all you guys claim it does, it should be called "Black Magic Cloud". _(O)_

Ducks hunters (including myself) will buy into almost anything.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

This really is interesting. As Toasty has said the flight stopper pellet is a scam. Some one mentioned clean pass through on birds at 40 yards. Its funny because I have regular steel that passes clean through 40 yards. The only thing that black cloud has going for it is the flight stopper wad. This wad is designed to hold the shot in the wad longer to produce denser patterns at longer ranges. Now for the wow part. We can do the same thing by patterning our guns with plain old regular steel loads and the right choke combination. If more bird hunters would take the time and pattern their guns with different chokes and loads at the ranges they plan on shooting no one would need a nice gimmick like the magical black cloud. Of course a little time at the trap field or sporting clays range wouldn't hurt either :shock:


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

I'm curious what steel load you are using hamernhonkers? I'm not trying to be a douche, genuinely curious here. I never seen any other steel do it at 40 yds.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

I'm not hammerin, but I'll answer. #4 steel reloads with initial velocity of 1725 fps will pass through a mallard at 40 yards. #3 Kent with initial velocity of 1550 fps will also pass through mallards beyond 40 yards. Any shot bigger that #3 will also pass through mallards at almost any speed at 40 yards. 

I will agree with hammerin, if you haven't patterned your gun with the shells you will be shooting in the marsh with a couple of different chokes, you may as well be shooting with one hand tied behind your back.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

shotgunwill said:


> I'm curious what steel load you are using hamernhonkers? I'm not trying to be a ****, genuinely curious here. I never seen any other steel do it at 40 yds.


95% of my 10 and 12 gauge loads are home rolled. My 10 gauge loads are 1 1/2 oz loads of 1 through BBB shot moving at 1550 fps and my 12 gauge loads range from 1 to 1 1/4 oz loads moving from 1400 fps to 1600 fps.

This is a little graphic but here is duck that I shot with a set up I use in my 10 gauge for shooting geese at 50 to 60 yards. This bird was hit at 20 yards and the hen was caught with the blow through of the shot. I did not do this intentionally. I just didn't stop to think of what could happen shooting a bird that close with this load. Like I said before we don't need those high dollar magical shells we just need to take the time and pattern our loads to see what they are doing.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

> As I have stated before, it's about killing power. Yes, due to the nature and design of the pellet, it tears **** up. When a kill, is a MUST, I'll put my money on it. I've seen with my own eyes what it does.


What does it do?

Killing power? Dead is dead isn't it. If you kill it with Black Cloud, does it become more dead?

How much more "power" do you need at reasonable ranges to kill a single duck or goose? The same size shot and velocity from whatever brand shell vs. Black Cloud same velocity and shot size gives you what advantage if they pattern similarly when shooting at reasonable distances?

If you're saying you like to take cracks at 50,60, 100 yards+ then this changes up some things and penetration and flight control wads might make a difference then. If you're a long bomb shooter or feel you need something "extra special" for geese well then I've got another alternative for you.

Dead Coyote (ever heard of this stuff?) Hevi shot T shot in 3" and 3 1/2" shells is probably your best bet for those long range killing expeditions. Dead Coyote is Hevi shot, not just light wimpy steel like your Black Cloud ammo and 75+% of other waterfowl ammo. It's 10% heavier than lead and 54% denser than steel. It is some wild stuff.
It WILL INDEED hold fairly tight patterns out to 70 yards and beyond. 
T shot at .21 caliber will still deliver a lethal payload out past 100 yards if you can manage to get a pellet into the neck, head, wing, or vitals of a bird. It may be like pulling the handle on a one armed bandit at real long ranges but if you compare it to Black Cloud, Black Cloud has a sad pattern and terrible energy past 50 yards I guarantee it but I'm sure for the "killin" type guys, it's worth the gamble lobbing BB's at great distances.
I know T shot might be a bit big for ducks but balistically and patterning capabilities at great ranges, it will smoke your black cloud bullets 10:1 . Shooting in tight (under 70 yards) with Dead Coyote may create more tissue damage like Black Cloud, but from what you have said it doesn't really matter too much since the kill is most important. 
Skybusting on public waterfowl refuges with Dead Coyote is kind of a trick too shooting in close. Like I said, T shot can be lethal out past 100 yards so capping a fellow hunter across the pond by accident is a possibility but can also add to the skill, fun and enjoyment of the hunt.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

> If you're saying you like to take cracks at 50,60, 100 yards+ then this changes up some things and penetration and flight control wads might make a difference then. If you're a long bomb shooter or feel you need something "extra special" for geese well then I've got another alternative for you.


You should try TSS #5 shot for this kind of shooting. It holds enough energy to penetrate and kill geese to 100 yards and is about the same price. It has a density of 18 grams per cubic centimeter where dead coyote is only 12. It also gives you a lot higher pellet count then dead coyote. This stuff is just plain evil on spring snows


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## shotgunwill (May 16, 2008)

hamernhonkers Thank you, I appreciate the info. PM to follow.

1bandman



1BandMan said:


> How much more "power" do you need at reasonable ranges to kill a single duck or goose? The same size shot and velocity from whatever brand shell vs. Black Cloud same velocity and shot size gives you what advantage if they pattern similarly when shooting at reasonable distances?


Long bombing aside(I'm pretty sure we see eye to eye on that anyway), I shoot an ounce and a quarter of #2 steel all season long. #2 kills whatever I happen to actually hit. Where I have noticed a difference is the wound channels that black cloud produces, resulting in less cripples for me and more "dead in air" ducks. I call that an advantage over the same load of plain old steel.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

hamernhonkers said:


> > If you're saying you like to take cracks at 50,60, 100 yards+ then this changes up some things and penetration and flight control wads might make a difference then. If you're a long bomb shooter or feel you need something "extra special" for geese well then I've got another alternative for you.
> 
> 
> You should try TSS #5 shot for this kind of shooting. It holds enough energy to penetrate and kill geese to 100 yards and is about the same price. It has a density of 18 grams per cubic centimeter where dead coyote is only 12. It also gives you a lot higher pellet count then dead coyote. This stuff is just plain evil on spring snows


I'm not and only for a short period of time (from about 17-20 or21 yrs old), have ever been a long range shooter. Yea, I've taken a few shots beyond what I should have from time to time through the years and even fairly recently, but I'd really rather not.
I don't land geese and shoot them standing in the dekes, but I like em' backpeddling close. As I've said, it doesn't take anything special or anything too much to make em eat dirt or splash in close. 
I don't hunt snows but for those sky carp, I'd maybe give some of those "magic bullet" tungston shells a whirl.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

Not to stir things but just to emphasize the importance of pattern guns and practicing shooting for any new people reading this thread. I know at this point I am well over 100 thousand rounds of clays shot. And I love to run out and pattern my guns any time I get a new load or choke to try. If people really want to kill birds and do it humanly please take the time to pattern and practice shooting. Last year after the first week of hunting I had to take a friend out who had just purchased a Carlson's long range choke tube and was shooting estate 1 1/4 oz loads of #2 shot for ducks and BB shot for geese. I made him shoot these loads at 20, 30, and 40 yards. The 2 shot was producing 100 % patterns in a 15 inch circle at 20 yards, 90% in a 20 inch circle at 30 yards and 85% in a 30" circle at 40 yards and he wondered why he couldn't hit a bird under 30 yards. It was even worse with the BB loads. He was getting 100% patterns at 40 yards in a 30" circle. Get some paper and do it right you just can't go out and shoot at water to see what your patter looks like.

Here is what it should look like.

















I even go so far sometimes to put a 8 1/2" plate in the center of the paper to shoot at just to make sure I am getting enough hits on it. I figure it is the same size as a goose's body.










We only have a couple of months left and I hope we can all take the time to get out and get our guns and loads ready for opening day.


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## deadicatedweim (Dec 18, 2007)

One thing I wanna point out to people that want to try black cloud or the people who have tried it and had a bad experience is. Go to the Black Cloud website and read about what choke tubes they recommend. For instance your not supposed to use a wad stripping choke such as the regular patternmasters. Also your not supposed to shoot it out of tighter chokes like improved mods or fulls. Both of these two things restrict the flight control wads so they dont work as designed. But ultimately pattern your gun with different chokes and loads to figure out what works the best.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

hamernhonkers said:


> Not to stir things but just to emphasize the importance of pattern guns and practicing shooting for any new people reading this thread. I know at this point I am well over 100 thousand rounds of clays shot. And I love to run out and pattern my guns any time I get a new load or choke to try. If people really want to kill birds and do it humanly please take the time to pattern and practice shooting. Last year after the first week of hunting I had to take a friend out who had just purchased a Carlson's long range choke tube and was shooting estate 1 1/4 oz loads of #2 shot for ducks and BB shot for geese. I made him shoot these loads at 20, 30, and 40 yards. The 2 shot was producing 100 % patterns in a 15 inch circle at 20 yards, 90% in a 20 inch circle at 30 yards and 85% in a 30" circle at 40 yards and he wondered why he couldn't hit a bird under 30 yards. It was even worse with the BB loads. He was getting 100% patterns at 40 yards in a 30" circle. Get some paper and do it right you just can't go out and shoot at water to see what your patter looks like.
> 
> Here is what it should look like.
> 
> ...


Good for you. You can see where your pellets hit on a piece of paper with a circle drawn on it. I have shot paper hundreds of times. Big deal. Your shooting ability (lead, speed, gun shouldered right etc) really make you or your load a good one. I never said BC was a miracle load. I said i witnessed CLEAN PASS THROUGH ON LARGE BIRDS AT AND ABOVE 40 YARDS! I have never had ANY other load do that especially on swans including Bismuth and Tungsten. I have killed 11 of the things. BC has more energy or doesn't "ball up" like "plain steel". Plain and simple. It will put the birds down better than steel or any other shell i have used in the past.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

lunkerhunter2 said:


> Good for you. You can see where your pellets hit on a piece of paper with a circle drawn on it. I have shot paper hundreds of times. Big deal. Your shooting ability (lead, speed, gun shouldered right etc) really make you or your load a good one. I never said BC was a miracle load. I said i witnessed CLEAN PASS THROUGH ON LARGE BIRDS AT AND ABOVE 40 YARDS! I have never had ANY other load do that especially on swans including Bismuth and Tungsten. I have killed 11 of the things. BC has more energy or doesn't "ball up" like "plain steel". Plain and simple. It will put the birds down better than steel or any other shell i have used in the past.


It is clear from this post that you do not understand basic shotshell ballistics. Your statements are broad and all encompassing which leads to a lack of credibility. Shooting ability is important, but what happens to your pellets after the shot doesn't matter? I think you're the first person that I have ever heard dismiss patterning a shotgun. No one doubted you witnessed clean pass through on large birds at and above 40 yards with BC. The fact that you haven't seen it with Bismuth and Tungsten and other steel shells means you either haven't shot it or are just making a bunch of stuff up to stir the pot. :roll:


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

You know, I'm all good with whatever anyone else wants to do, especially if you cant talk them out of it.

Some guys like to stand on a dike and bomb shells at whatever fly's over. They will also tell you its the only way to kill ducks and geese. Some guys see ducks or geese flying, try to go get underneath them and take 70,80,100+ yard cracks and tell you its the best hunting ever if they can scratch down one or two. Some guys will chase birds from one spot to the next sneaking up on them and shooting at them whenever they come up, if they are not in range with a shotgun (less than 200 yards) for a good sneak attack, then they will open up on them with a rifle and tell you it's its the only way to put birds in the bag. 

Some will figure out the big picture down the road, where others never will. It's very frustrating at times, but all good by me. It basically has to be all good by me. If I can't adjust to someone else or simply shrug it off, it would frustrate me to the point of having to make some other decision of them being a fellow hunter or not. 
For now, it's all good by me.


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## lunkerhunter2 (Nov 3, 2007)

toasty said:


> lunkerhunter2 said:
> 
> 
> > Good for you. You can see where your pellets hit on a piece of paper with a circle drawn on it. I have shot paper hundreds of times. Big deal. Your shooting ability (lead, speed, gun shouldered right etc) really make you or your load a good one. I never said BC was a miracle load. I said i witnessed CLEAN PASS THROUGH ON LARGE BIRDS AT AND ABOVE 40 YARDS! I have never had ANY other load do that especially on swans including Bismuth and Tungsten. I have killed 11 of the things. BC has more energy or doesn't "ball up" like "plain steel". Plain and simple. It will put the birds down better than steel or any other shell i have used in the past.
> ...


Probably not near as good as you my friend. I don't need to see what happens on paper, i need to know that when i pill the trigger that the bird is coming down to the ground dead. I have shot BOTH 3 1/2" and 3" Tungsten(federal) and Bismuth in several different loads. Unless they have come a long ways since then, BC out-performs either of the 2 and steel. Like i said, paper means nothing to me. Birds on the ground do. Done here, have a good day.


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## 1BandMan (Nov 2, 2007)

Discussion is always good for the giggles and kicks of it. With absolutes being used in the discussion, however, discussions rarely suceed in pursuasion.

Logic--
What happens on paper happens in the field and of course vise versa. If your pattern on paper is poor, those open holes in the pattern aren't going to put pellets on target including those flightstopper pellets that are responsible for BC being what BC is and sets it apart from other shells. There is nothing you can do to make up for a terrible pattern no matter if you are shooting "super shells" or not.

It sounds like every bird that is shot at with BC is dead, even before pulling the trigger. I think I'll go buy a single box. If its good as it's marketed to be and supported through "in the field experiences" of several folks on here, I might be able to stay at home watching the Outdoor Channel and get a limit.


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## hamernhonkers (Sep 28, 2007)

> Good for you. You can see where your pellets hit on a piece of paper with a circle drawn on it. I have shot paper hundreds of times. Big deal. Your shooting ability (lead, speed, gun shouldered right etc) really make you or your load a good one. I never said BC was a miracle load. I said i witnessed CLEAN PASS THROUGH ON LARGE BIRDS AT AND ABOVE 40 YARDS! I have never had ANY other load do that especially on swans including Bismuth and Tungsten. I have killed 11 of the things. BC has more energy or doesn't "ball up" like "plain steel". Plain and simple. It will put the birds down better than steel or any other shell i have used in the past.


Not trying to attack you personally here man. I also think you missed this part of my post.



> Not to stir things but just to emphasize the importance of patterning guns and practicing shooting for any new people reading this thread. I know at this point I am well over 100 thousand rounds of clays shot. And I love to run out and pattern my guns any time I get a new load or choke to try. If people really want to kill birds and do it humanly please take the time to pattern and practice shooting.


Like I said with this, practicing your shooting is very important and so is knowing what your gun, load and choke do. We can practice all we want but as we all know feather and flesh are different then clay. For us to kill a bird cleanly at the ranges we shoot we need to know if our gun, load and choke are capable of killing a bird at these ranges. So we have to patten them to see if they are holding together at a given range and then we need to learn at what distance a particular pellet will still have enough energy to cleanly kill the bird.

I do have one question for you. How is it possible for plain steel to penetrate and object with a density of 7.86 g/cm3 but a tungesten pellet at 12 g/cm3 will not. :?


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

I love this one:

"what is the best shell to use for ducks?"

THE ONE THAT'S IN YOUR GUN!!!  

Seriously! Has waterfowling changed that much? I am reloading steel 1oz. and 7/8 oz. at 1500-1625 fps in sizes #3 and #4. I kill mallards graveyard dead in the air at 35 yards. The whole key to waterfowling in shooting at 40 yards or less (good camo, good decoys, location, etc. catch my drift?) The difference between 40 and 50 yards is significant when shooting steel. The difference between 50 and 60 is tremendous to say the least. 

Black cloud is a gimmick. If you shoot the Fed premium stuff (3" 1 1/4 oz. #3 at 1400 fps), vs. the Fed black cloud (3" 1 1/4 oz #3 at 1400 fps), mixed up in your shell vest while not paying attention to which shells were actually going into the gun; you would see no difference in birds bagged. The difference would only be apparent at cleaning of your birds, and the results will be less than desirable.

Never shot tungsten, and at current prices, I never will. I have shot bismuth and I like it. Got some 28 gauge 3/4 oz. #6 bismuth I going try out this year. 


And another thing, pattern your gun. I DOES make a difference.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

IMO Winchester X-perts are the worst shell I have shot. The shot is mal-shaped and doesnt pattern well for me. 
I just wish GOOD non-tox wasnt so dang expensive!
Black Cloud seems to pattern well and when I dismantled one, the shot was very uniform in shape


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Bax* said:


> IMO Winchester X-perts are the worst shell I have shot. The shot is mal-shaped and doesnt pattern well for me.
> I just wish GOOD non-tox wasnt so dang expensive!
> Black Cloud seems to pattern well and when I dismantled one, the shot was very uniform in shape


Speaking of "mal-shaped", hevi-shot is teardrop-shaped:


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