# Should DWR have pandemic rules for LE / OIL tags?



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Should DWR have pandemic rules for LE / OIL tags? Or potentially other situations where people are restricted from being able to hunt. Should they offer a means to turn them in and get points back, *IF* there is a government mandated lockdown when the hunts take place? Or will everyone be expected to eat the tag?

This is a different concept than the other virus thread, that does have some immediate relevance (LE turkey tags). The pandemic is expected to die down this summer but come back come fall when things cool down.

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I think if they are going to re-issue bison tags the next year because circumstances made it “hard” for hunters, then in a government mandated lockdown you’d get your points back at a minimum, or maybe just toll the tags to the next year.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I disagreed with them giving the whiners a twice in a lifetime bison tag, and I would disagree with any such accommodations for covid-19. 

Except if I'm unable to get to Utah to hunt my desert bighorn tag.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

If it's illegal to leave your house (which it currently is for anyone in Salt Lake or Summit Counties) and the sheriff of other counties will fine you for camping on our own public land, I think it makes sense to issue full refunds and reinstate points plus the extra point earned this year. A deferment to hunt next year will also be acceptable by me.

That being said, I just want to hunt. I can't think of anything that would be better for my physical and mental health right now than spending time hunting turkeys. Let me drive my out of county vehicle on the road to my destination. I'll bring my own gas and food. I'll even bring some empty bottles with me so I won't have to stop at the gas station to take a leak. :smile:


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

Spring bear hunters are getting hit by this issue right now.
Sucks for them!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Look at the bright side ---- At least the numbers of animals will go up and the DWR could reach their management goals.


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## KineKilla (Jan 28, 2011)

I have the Expo permit for Mtn. Goats available to buy on April 6th. I plan on buying said permit and I plan on scouting and hunting as normal. 

I live in SL County. If I have to be a criminal to be a hunter then a criminal I will be.

My Idaho bear hunt is a bigger question as that hunt is scheduled for late May and is contingent on my outfitter being able to fulfill our agreement. I suppose if I am forced to eat the $2k + permit fees already paid then I'll just have to come to terms with it.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

Much bigger problems to be concerned about if hunts are cancelled beginning of Sept and carried out through December because of this virus. If things are cancelled 7 months from now, resources may not be available to even go on a one day hunting trip.

But yes, if that were the case, successful applicants would likely be given the choice to forfeit the tag and receive all money (including app fee) and points back with a point earned for this year, or have the hunt postponed until next year and have a new updated tag issued them them.

Something almost similar happened in the 2001-2002 hunt year for the WSMR OIL oryx hunters in NM after the 9/11 terrorist attack. We had the option of accepting a one day hunt (instead of two day), or turning the tag back in and be eligible to apply the next year. Because NM does not have point system, it was better to take the one day because there is no guarantee you would ever pull the tag again...


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

So far there are no official state rules forbidding hunting but some county rules are making it pretty hard to hunt/fish in their counties by restricting general visitations. I feel that if for any "official " reason, be it state, county or city you are prohibited to hunt in the area covered by a LE type tag then the state should simply refund your money and re-establish your points. Being a little "hard" to hunt in an area is not grounds for a refund.

Maybe the state should consider closing all hunts statewide and refund. This would eliminate all the confusion created by backdoor closures due to the various countyrules. This is of course is NOT my recommendation.

I personally think these county rules need to be constitutionally challenged because I believe it is way beyond their authority to restrict movement of people within their own state.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

brisket said:


> If it's illegal to leave your house (which it currently is for anyone in Salt Lake or Summit Counties) and the sheriff of other counties will fine you for camping on our own public land, I think it makes sense to issue full refunds and reinstate points plus the extra point earned this year. A deferment to hunt next year will also be acceptable by me.


Brisket- you are interpreting the restrictions wrong here. It IS NOT illegal to leave your home in Salt Lake County! You can still work at your office, if needed, you can still leave for medical reasons, you can shop for groceries, and you can get outside for exercise...the caveat being that you follow social distancing guidelines! None of this requires you to hole up like a mole in your home, and repeating the ascertation does not and will not improve people's perceptions of the current situation.

You are only banned from using state parks in counties outside your county of residence. Why?? Because these are places where people could congregate and pass the illness along. We are also urged not to congregate at trailheads for the same reason. Makes sense, right?

You are not going to get ticketed by a law enforcement official for being out and about on NF, BLM, or other public land, so long as you are following social distancing guidelines and are not gathering in groups larger than 10 (said group being made of of people in your household and not mixtures of households for obvious reasons).

It does absolutely no good to incorrectly interpret the current restrictions. It is worse then to broadcast those incorrect assumptions to everyone else. Read the state and county guidelines so that you understand the restrictions correctly. Most importantly, STAY SAFE!!


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

Some counties already have "stay away" as part of their Health Order. Some have banned camping on public lands which includes a Class B Misdemeanor for violations.

My personal opinion is if the governmental restrictions are still in place come Fall then the UDWR will do something.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

MWScott72 said:


> Brisket- you are interpreting the restrictions wrong here. It IS NOT illegal to leave your home in Salt Lake County! You can still work at your office, if needed, you can still leave for medical reasons, you can shop for groceries, and you can get outside for exercise...the caveat being that you follow social distancing guidelines! None of this requires you to hole up like a mole in your home, and repeating the ascertation does not and will not improve people's perceptions of the current situation.


I would love to be wrong on this, perhaps you can help me interpret it. From Section 11 of the Salt Lake County Order:

https://slco.org/globalassets/1-site-files/health/programs/covid/pho/pho3.pdf



> An initial violation of this Order is punishable as a Class B Misdemeanor, and subsequent violations are punishable as Class A Misdemeanors.


Yes, you can go to work if your job is deemed "necessary", you can go to the grocery store and leave to exercise. Anything they have proclaimed as "unnecessary", it is punishable by up to a class A misdemeanor for repeat offenders. I would consider that "illegal". The way I interpret this is if I want to leave my house for any activity not on the approved list, it is illegal. Please let me know how I'm interpreting this incorrectly, am I reading it wrong? I genuinely want to know, please help.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

It appears that there are a multitude of reasons why one can leave their home in SL County. Section 6, 7, 8, 9 all give valid reasons to leave and could be reasons why one is out of their home for the whole day/night. 

It appears that the punishments will be for purposeful breaking of the regs- such as opening dining in a restaurant or doing nails in a salon, or continually standing too near someone or hosting an event. But driving down the road? Not in the language presented in the Order. 

One thing is many companies are having their employees carry a paper saying they are an essential service. Never heard of anyone being asked to present it and I have not seen any wording which requires documentation to be on the person.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/news/utah-wildlife-news/887-hunting-fishing-utah-covid-19.html


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Leave Brisket alone, let him stay home and worry all he wants. He certainly isn't hurting anything by doing this. Now, I especially believe Brisket is correct on many things in that no one should be up there on the Provo or Weber pounding it bloody in search of a pretty little trout...EXCEPT those people over 75 years of age, male, drive an old Suzuki SUV and are mostly bald headed with a dumb looking beard on their chin. All others should be restricted to community ponds or self imposed stay at home and worry orders.


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## willfish4food (Jul 14, 2009)

The crap thing would be if you were one of the people who drew a random OIL permit with low points and had to surrender the permit for your points back. "Here are your 5 points back. See you in 30 years when you're in the bonus pool."


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

willfish4food said:


> The crap thing would be if you were one of the people who drew a random OIL permit with low points and had to surrender the permit for your points back. "Here are your 5 points back. See you in *300* years when you're in the bonus pool."


Fixed it for you


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I'm sure the genius' making public policy have this on their list of thing to address.

Probably way down the list but hopefully on the list. Or they don't.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Has anyone thought of sending a email to the WB members and asking them to address it at their April meeting or teleconference or whatever they have planned?


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

brisket said:


> I would love to be wrong on this, perhaps you can help me interpret it. From Section 11 of the Salt Lake County Order:
> 
> https://slco.org/globalassets/1-site-files/health/programs/covid/pho/pho3.pdf
> 
> Yes, you can go to work if your job is deemed "necessary", you can go to the grocery store and leave to exercise. Anything they have proclaimed as "unnecessary", it is punishable by up to a class A misdemeanor for repeat offenders. I would consider that "illegal". The way I interpret this is if I want to leave my house for any activity not on the approved list, it is illegal. Please let me know how I'm interpreting this incorrectly, am I reading it wrong? I genuinely want to know, please help.


Brisket, there is NOTHING in the order you reference that categorically requires you to stay at home. You are "encouraged" or "discouraged" from doing certain things, but that wording is not a legally enforceable directive. That is like regulatory language that includes "should" and "shall". You can "should" on someone all day long, but there is no requirement to do anything and you cannot be forced to comply until the wording is changed to "shall".

Part of the reason the current guidelines are the way they are is to give people some sort of leeway while still advocating certain practices that are beneficial to the containment and eventual mitigation of this contagion. If you are freaked out by the current situation (which I think everyone is to some degree however large or small that might be), then by all means, stay home and shelter in place until restrictions are lifted. I would also look at some means to de-stress yourself as well. Do you watch too much media coverage on the subject, and does that make you even more anxious? If so, stop it. Don't do the things that add to the stress you might feel. There are loads of ideas on the internet on how to accomplish this. Give them a look.

There is no doubt this is changing all of our lives in some way, shape, or fashion. It doesn't have to RULE our lives though, and there are still many things that we CAN and SHOULD do. Let's focus on those.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Carrying papers you might have to show to LEO in order to move from place to place?
Sound familiar?
Oh yeah.....Hitler required Jews to do that.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

What about the Government violating the Amendment of the rights to assembly?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> What about the Government violating the Amendment of the rights to assembly?


At the **** Sand Dunes no less. BLM Just closed Little Sahara with no end date on the order... so indefinite closure. [email protected]#$%%@#

-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Dallan, with the Dunes being closed it will save you from tearing apart your machine to try and get the Dam# sand out of everything.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

taxidermist said:


> Dallan, with the Dunes being closed it will save you from tearing apart your machine to try and get the Dam# sand out of everything.


I just rebuilt the entire top end on my machine. Its got about 2 minutes run-time on it. I need to get it out and do the initial break in, figure out any jetting changes.

I guess I'll hit 5-mile pass.

-DallanC


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## bowdude (Aug 11, 2019)

You all need to quit joining in the panic and go with the flow. I am going to work every day and I live in SL County. It is even on a State Construction Site. If there were a problem with it, you can bet the State would shut it down. The potential exists with the possibility of spread of the virus, but it is a pretty low probability. Things will get back to normal as the weather warms. The virus, like flue virus, doesn't do well in heat. This is only a temporary measure. Should hunting seasons get canceled, all you gotta do is not allow the credit card to be used. (Cancel it). If the DNR doesn't get payment or payment is refused, the tag is not issued. I know the rules changed for returning a permit, but as I remember, if you turn it in 30 days prior to the start of the hunt, you get a full refund. I believe one of the rule changes is you forfeit your points, not sure on that one though. I do know that if you purchase a left over permit, you loose your points.


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## High Desert Elk (Aug 21, 2012)

bowdude said:


> You all need to quit joining in the panic and go with the flow. I am going to work every day and I live in SL County. It is even on a State Construction Site. If there were a problem with it, you can bet the State would shut it down. The potential exists with the possibility of spread of the virus, but it is a pretty low probability. Things will get back to normal as the weather warms. The virus, like flu virus, doesn't do well in heat. This is only a temporary measure. Should hunting seasons get canceled, all you gotta do is not allow the credit card to be used. (Cancel it). If the DNR doesn't get payment or payment is refused, the tag is not issued. I know the rules changed for returning a permit, but as I remember, if you turn it in 30 days prior to the start of the hunt, you get a full refund. I believe one of the rule changes is you forfeit your points, not sure on that one though. I do know that if you purchase a left over permit, you loose your points.


I'd wager if hunts get cancelled (really dumb move by any state government), the rules will change again and the new rule of 30 won't apply.

When temps do hit the 80's on a pretty regular basis, the dumbest thing anyone can do, or cause to have done by mandate, is stay indoors in a temperature controlled environment of 70 deg. May cannot come soon enough...


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Dallan, sorry you are not able to run your machine.
I, too, was headed to the dunes this week.
I have changed plans and headed to, unfortunately, you know where.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

brisket said:


> I would love to be wrong on this, perhaps you can help me interpret it. From Section 11 of the Salt Lake County Order:
> 
> https://slco.org/globalassets/1-site-files/health/programs/covid/pho/pho3.pdf
> 
> Yes, you can go to work if your job is deemed "necessary", you can go to the grocery store and leave to exercise. Anything they have proclaimed as "unnecessary", it is punishable by up to a class A misdemeanor for repeat offenders. I would consider that "illegal". The way I interpret this is if I want to leave my house for any activity not on the approved list, it is illegal. Please let me know how I'm interpreting this incorrectly, am I reading it wrong? I genuinely want to know, please help.


You won't get fined for hiking in the hills mainly because of the " common sense" factor. They have said over and over that they won't fine anyone unless they are blatantly putting others in danger.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> You won't get fined for hiking in the hills mainly because of the " common sense" factor. They have said over and over that they won't fine anyone unless they are blatantly putting others in danger.


Which may be a little easier in Tooele County than perhaps Salt Lake or Davis Counties.

Trail heads and parking lots have a tendency to congregate people.


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

taxidermist said:


> What about the Government violating the Amendment of the rights to assembly?


yeah, screw the gubment! i say we hold a get together for all the highest point holders for LE Elk. Nothing could go wrong with all those old folks coughing and sneezing on each other.:shock:


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

MWScott72 said:


> Brisket, there is NOTHING in the order you reference that categorically requires you to stay at home. You are "encouraged" or "discouraged" from doing certain things, but that wording is not a legally enforceable directive. That is like regulatory language that includes "should" and "shall". You can "should" on someone all day long, but there is no requirement to do anything and you cannot be forced to comply until the wording is changed to "shall".
> 
> Part of the reason the current guidelines are the way they are is to give people some sort of leeway while still advocating certain practices that are beneficial to the containment and eventual mitigation of this contagion. If you are freaked out by the current situation (which I think everyone is to some degree however large or small that might be), then by all means, stay home and shelter in place until restrictions are lifted. I would also look at some means to de-stress yourself as well. Do you watch too much media coverage on the subject, and does that make you even more anxious? If so, stop it. Don't do the things that add to the stress you might feel. There are loads of ideas on the internet on how to accomplish this. Give them a look.
> 
> There is no doubt this is changing all of our lives in some way, shape, or fashion. It doesn't have to RULE our lives though, and there are still many things that we CAN and SHOULD do. Let's focus on those.


This is great advise, I agree 100%, I've tried to do some of this, but to be honest it's been difficult. I think if it was just the virus I'd be fine, I'm really not freaked out about it, I've mostly been at home as there really isn't anywhere else I need to be. I have a lot of stuff going on in my personal life and more worried about additional layoffs at work, loosing my job, etc. I'm a manager at my job and I'm bombarded with worried employees throughout the day. It's impossible to completely get away from it all. Throw in a pandemic, an earthquake and an overly worried Sister brisket and brisketlings with everything that is going on, it's been a lot to bear. You're right, though, I feel better on the days when I concentrate on things within my control and not let it rule my life. I'll work to do better, thanks for the encouragement.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Probably the wrong place to put this, it for those of you in a management position - look into the PPP which is part of the most recent stimulus. For simplicity sake - the government is willing to pay ALL payroll related costs for 8 weeks to keep businesses open and people on the payroll. A few criteria have to be met, but it could be beneficial to some.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

CPAjeff said:


> Probably the wrong place to put this, it for those of you in a management position - look into the PPP which is part of the most recent stimulus. For simplicity sake - the government is willing to pay ALL payroll related costs for 8 weeks to keep businesses open and people on the payroll. A few criteria have to be met, but it could be beneficial to some.


Also the EIDL program with the advance is a great resource for small businesses and even landlords


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## BGD (Mar 23, 2018)

I am surprised at the overall lack of knowledge many people have about the stay safe, Stay Home orders. I have heard many say you can't go to work unless you are "an essential business". The SLCO order specifically outlines 1) Closed Businesses (that are typically public gathering places), 2) Identifies essential businesses that are exempt, 3) Food Service - which establishes conditions, and 4) All Other Businesses (Open with Conditions) which includes all businesses not closed or deemed essential - but requires businesses to require employees with symptoms to stay away and requires social distancing requirements are followed.

I just outlined the SLCO order. The state and SLC orders are not too different. The info is easy to find and are pretty short. People need to make sure they have accurate info. Inaccurate info spreads like wildfire and causes panic. Some in my neighborhood were ready to rush to the stores again when the orders were coming out so they could stock up before we were ordered to stay in our homes. Please everyone, make sure you have accurate info. This will help prevent or reduce panic.

SLCO order. : https://slco.org/globalassets/1-site-files/health/programs/covid/pho/staysafestayhome_list.pdf

State order: https://coronavirus.utah.gov/full-text-governors-stay-home-stay-safe-directive/

SLC Info: https://www.slc.gov/mayor/covid-19/

SLC's latest proclamation 6 provides enforceability within the city to the state order and salt lake county order.

Stay educated and stay safe!


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

CPAjeff said:


> Probably the wrong place to put this, it for those of you in a management position - look into the PPP which is part of the most recent stimulus. For simplicity sake - the government is willing to pay ALL payroll related costs for 8 weeks to keep businesses open and people on the payroll. A few criteria have to be met, but it could be beneficial to some.


I received a copy of this from my accountant too, I would qualify, but I sorta have mixed feelings about it.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

brisket said:


> This is great advise, I agree 100%, I've tried to do some of this, but to be honest it's been difficult. I think if it was just the virus I'd be fine, I'm really not freaked out about it, I've mostly been at home as there really isn't anywhere else I need to be. I have a lot of stuff going on in my personal life and more worried about additional layoffs at work, loosing my job, etc. I'm a manager at my job and I'm bombarded with worried employees throughout the day. It's impossible to completely get away from it all. Throw in a pandemic, an earthquake and an overly worried Sister brisket and brisketlings with everything that is going on, it's been a lot to bear. You're right, though, I feel better on the days when I concentrate on things within my control and not let it rule my life. I'll work to do better, thanks for the encouragement.


Hey, sorry if I came thru a bit harsh at first. Not my intent to bang on you, but as has been said, interpreting these restrictions correctly can in itself lessen some of the tension many are feeling. No doubt many are in your situation with work worries, but this will all pass. Dwelling on it too much just makes it worse. Hopefully you can get out and do some of the things that will take your mind off of things...like turkey hunting or fishing!! There's nothing better than getting outside into some fresh air to help the mind ease up a bit. This will all get better in time...it's just going to take some patience on our parts.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Kevin D said:


> I received a copy of this from my accountant too, I would qualify, but I sorta have mixed feelings about it.


I also have mixed feelings on this. I've heard, "it's free money." One thing I've learned in financial dealings with the government is - nothing is free.

On one hand, I believe it's a giant help to certain businesses and employees. Any amount not used for payroll would be amortized into a loan. Any amount used for payroll would be completely forgiven.

On the other hand, where is this money coming from? How and when will hyper-inflation hit on the backend of this ordeal?


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

CPAjeff said:


> Probably the wrong place to put this, it for those of you in a management position - look into the PPP which is part of the most recent stimulus. For simplicity sake - the government is willing to pay ALL payroll related costs for 8 weeks to keep businesses open and people on the payroll. A few criteria have to be met, but it could be beneficial to some.


Thanks for the info, unfortunately I don't have any control over the payroll, so I'm not sure if the company qualifies. Heck, they laid off 2 of my directs without telling me! The same happened to the other managers. That's messed up.


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## brisket (Mar 3, 2015)

CPAjeff said:


> On the other hand, where is this money coming from? How and when will hyper-inflation hit on the backend of this ordeal?


It's just more deficit spending, so the Federal Reserve monetizes it and prints it out of thin air. There will be a period of high inflation, hopefully not hyperinflation, but when this stimulus package doesn't work, they'll pass another, then another and another. Who knows at that point?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

You need to look at it this way. 

The money is there. 

It is going to be spent one way or another, it won't go back to the treasury.


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

It's "free" money... as much as monopoly money is real money.


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## bowdude (Aug 11, 2019)

I am hoping that if offered, you can refuse to take the stimulus money and those that "pass" will not be taxed to recover it. My wife and I do not qualify for any of the money, but you can bet we will be expect to pay it back via the raised taxes that are sure to come. 

On another note, just to change the subject, those of us that live in SL County are going to miss out on the spring fishing and turkey hunting in the outlying counties that we are not allowed to recreate in. But... on the other hand, should this madness continue into the fall, those of us in the SL County who Archery hunt will have a lot fewer "hunters" to deal with when it comes to hunting in the Extended area. Hopefully all this will come to an end in May. Generally things warm up after General Conference weekend. 

My cabin fever will have to be satisfied with backyard camping this spring. My wife and I enjoy putting up the hammocks and sleeping in the back yard while it is cool. Should be able to have our first sleep out within the next couple of weeks.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

For those interested in PPP loans, this is actually a really good resource to look at from what I've seen.

https://fitsmallbusiness.com/payche...oSAsT9e02qXZvHFg6MY70YGa9vHjy31kE_GlhKOXFEHHI


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

As time goes on, it appears we're being "asked" or, in some cases, "told" to practice more and more preventative measures in order to reduce or eliminate this pandemic! By the time your hunt (or mine) comes up, who knows what we can or cannot do? Like all of you, I applied for my BUCK/BULL/OIL tags before all of these current and future restrictions came up, so if I can't legally or safely or reasonably hunt for, or recover, or transport, or butcher, or preserve, (or cook, or eat) a big game animal I've drawn a tag for, then I want my money and points back or an equal chance to go on that hunt when it's legal, safe and reasonable to do so.

I've applied for a bull moose tag with 20 points and I live at least 200 miles from the nearest moose. If I get lucky enough to draw that tag, there is no way I'm going to shoot, field dress, quarter or bone out, haul out, butcher and wrap a 1000 lb animal by myself even if it's legal to go on the hunt in the first place. Would you?


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

elkfromabove said:


> As time goes on, it appears we're being "asked" or, in some cases, "told" to practice more and more preventative measures in order to reduce or eliminate this pandemic! By the time your hunt (or mine) comes up, who knows what we can or cannot do? Like all of you, I applied for my BUCK/BULL/OIL tags before all of these current and future restrictions came up, so if I can't legally or safely or reasonably hunt for, or recover, or transport, or butcher, or preserve, (or cook, or eat) a big game animal I've drawn a tag for, then I want my money and points back or an equal chance to go on that hunt when it's legal, safe and reasonable to do so.
> 
> I've applied for a bull moose tag with 20 points and I live at least 200 miles from the nearest moose. If I get lucky enough to draw that tag, there is no way I'm going to shoot, field dress, quarter or bone out, haul out, butcher and wrap a 1000 lb animal by myself even if it's legal to go on the hunt in the first place. Would you?


Lee, have you ever helped someone pack out a moose?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

EFA, I'll come help you. A moose is 6 feet long, we can properly social distance. :grin:


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

EFA, I'll come help as well. I'm more of the slow and steady kind of hiker, so it should be no problem staying six feet in front of me during the pack out!


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## RemingtonCountry (Feb 17, 2016)

Sign me up for the pack out too!!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> EFA, I'll come help you. A moose is 6 feet long, we can properly social distance. :grin:


EFA's a few years out. I'm at a 50/50 chance to get a tag this year. I'm hunting even if I have an IV in my arm (done it before).

-DallanC


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ridgetop said:


> Lee, have you ever helped someone pack out a moose?


Actually, in mid-September, 2008, just as the sun was setting, I killed a cow moose and had a son and 2 sons-in-law help me pack it out. I called them on my cell phone and while I waited for them to get there, I field dressed and started boning out the moose in the dark with only a small but bright lantern to assist me. Though we were only about 200 yards downhill from the truck, it still took us about 2 hours to finish the job, since I was the only one who know how to handle it (and both of my 2 sons-in-law got sick while watching me). And since it was so late, we had to pack the meat in a couple of large coolers I had brought with several bags of cubed ice. The next morning, I took the coolers to the butcher shop and had the meat cut and wrapped.

Edited: FWIW, the cow moose had a tag in it's ear that advised me to call the DWR before I ate it! As it turned out, the DWR told me they had tranquilized it earlier in order to move it from the Avenues in Salt Lake City where it had wondered in search of food, back to the mountains above the city. Luckily, the tranquilizers had worn off by the time I shot it, so the meat was safe to eat. Otherwise, they said, they would have given me another cow moose tag!

Additionally, I've killed some elk and had friends and family help me with those and I've helped friends with their elk as well, so I know what work it takes to deal with a large animal after the "fun" ends! And these coronavirus regulations could very well compound the work to the point that it's not worth the "fun" any more!

Edited again: Hopefully without giving away my moose hotspot, I can tell you this. If the current coronavirus regulations remain in place for the hunts, it will not be legal for me to hunt my bull moose at the same place I hunted my cow moose!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I hope you draw Dallan! I’d help you pack out too. If you don’t mind kind of a whimpy slow guy...


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

EFA - that's interesting...I killed my cow moose in 2008 as well up Parley's Canyon. They get bigger the closer you get! My experience was very similar. I killed it a couple hours before dark and had a hunting buddy along. While we boned the beast out, I called another friend, and he came up in the dark and found us. We were probably half mile from the truck - mostly downhill, but we had about a 300 yard pack uphill to the road. That's sucked!!

I've since decided not to put in for cow moose anymore. I figure I've done it once, and can let others have the opportunity to do so without me gumming up the draws further. It was fun though, so if you do draw again, sign me up for the packout!


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## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

KineKilla said:


> I have the Expo permit for Mtn. Goats available to buy on April 6th. I plan on buying said permit and I plan on scouting and hunting as normal.
> 
> I live in SL County. If I have to be a criminal to be a hunter then a criminal I will be.
> 
> My Idaho bear hunt is a bigger question as that hunt is scheduled for late May and is contingent on my outfitter being able to fulfill our agreement. I suppose if I am forced to eat the $2k + permit fees already paid then I'll just have to come to terms with it.


I just received an email yesterday from IFG stating that you could still hunt if you had an agreement with an outfitter. Did you see that? If not go to their website and take a look.


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## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

yes they should......What they are I don't know. That is where the debate will be


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

The Wildlife board passed some amendments today that will allow hunters to extend hunts or obtain refunds for the turkey/bear hunts that end prior to July 1.


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## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

Watched and I thought they did the best they could given the situation. The one issue I have is, address the fall now not later! 

Why address now? Applications are in draw is about to be held, nothing is out there for 2021 yet. Seems to me a reasonable solution is this:

if the hunt is disrupted due to COVID-19 then you get that tag the next year there is a season. If the hunts are disrupted then the number of tags is deducted from the recommended permit numbers for 2021. Essentially it would work like this:

12 tags for Elk in unit X was disrupted in 2020 due to COVID 19. Those tags would be deducted from the 2021 recommended permit numbers

In this instance Elk Unit X recommended 14 tags for 2021- leaving 2 available for drawing in 2021. 

It sucks for 2021 if we don't have fall seasons but I still think it is better to address today than later in the year. just my .02 cents worth


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## RandomElk16 (Sep 17, 2013)

When you say disrupted, especially only referring to some of the tags, are you speaking of people impacted by the disease? If yes, I assume they will operate under their normal health related guidelines. 

If we can't hunt in September, the world is likely over lol. 



My big concern with the hunt being impacted isn't even about tags or myself... it's about the animals. If one of hunting and conservations biggest claims is that it is necessary to cull the herds to reduce winter kill etc, etc... What happens if we don't? What happens if we don't kill any elk or deer this year? What about predators - no bears or cats killed leads to?

I'm not thinking about the bonus pools and drawing (which I admit might be a first), I am genuinely concerned what this means for wildlife and habitat.


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## 300 Wby (Aug 14, 2008)

RandomElk16 said:


> When you say disrupted, especially only referring to some of the tags, are you speaking of people impacted by the disease? If yes, I assume they will operate under their normal health related guidelines.
> 
> If we can't hunt in September, the world is likely over lol.
> 
> ...


Concur with the general health guidelines. For the term disrupted I meant, the hunt was not held for some reason due to the pandemic. Something along the lines of counties for some unexplained reason ban camping on federal or state ground or something stupid like that &#8230;..


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> willfish4food said:
> 
> 
> > The crap thing would be if you were one of the people who drew a random OIL permit with low points and had to surrender the permit for your points back. "Here are your 5 points back. See you in *300* years when you're in the bonus pool."
> ...


I tried but I couldn't resist.

*FULL RANDOM DRAW!!!!!*


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> I tried but I couldn't resist.
> 
> *FULL RANDOM DRAW!!!!!*


Yeah, and then never draw...

I say NO FULL RANDOM DRAW!!!!

THOSE IN THE FRONT OF THE LINE SHOULD HAVE THE BEST CHANCE TO DRAW...!!!!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Right! I should hit the power ball soon since I've been buying tickets since it started.



wyoming2utah said:


> Yeah, and then never draw...
> 
> I say NO FULL RANDOM DRAW!!!!
> 
> THOSE IN THE FRONT OF THE LINE SHOULD HAVE THE BEST CHANCE TO DRAW...!!!!


Tell that to your children and grandchildren with a straight face while you encourage them to apply for tags every year.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

While I hate Utah's draw system it does give your kids and whoever else a chance of drawing a tag with very few points for all of the LE and OIL hunts as long as there are 2 or more tags offered.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

MadHunter said:


> Right! I should hit the power ball soon since I've been buying tickets since it started.
> 
> You would IF you were smart enough to play the game. LE elk tags, for example, can be had for just a couple points...if you really want one!
> 
> Tell that to your children and grandchildren with a straight face while you encourage them to apply for tags every year.


My kids are going to get mentor tags from mom and dad....BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN APPLYING FOR YEARS AND YEARS!

Our current system allows those who have been waiting the longest the best chance to draw while, at the same time, giving the rest a small glimmer of hope. A full random draw takes away the best chance for those who've been waiting the longest and gives everyone a small glimmer of hope...I hate that trade!


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

MadHunter said:


> Tell that to your children and grandchildren with a straight face while you encourage them to apply for tags every year.


The conversation under Utah's current system: "Hi kid. You can apply for this LE elk hunt and for this OIL species even though you have very little chance to draw it. If you stick around long enough, you'll probably draw the elk tag, but realistically, you'll probably never draw the OIL species. Still want to do it?"

The conversation if Utah went to full random draw system: "Hi kid. You can apply for this LE elk hunt and for this OIL species even though you have very little chance to draw it. You may never draw either tag as long as you live, odds are really low ever year for the rest of your life. Still want to do it?"

Trying to find out which "straight faced" conversation is better here? I laugh that people think full random draw solves any problem with point creep. It is just another way to distribute few tags to many applicants. It doesn't fix anything.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> The conversation under Utah's current system: "Hi kid. You can apply for this LE elk hunt and for this OIL species even though you have very little chance to draw it. If you stick around long enough, you'll probably draw the elk tag, but realistically, you'll probably never draw the OIL species. Still want to do it?"
> 
> The conversation if Utah went to full random draw system: "Hi kid. You can apply for this LE elk hunt and for this OIL species even though you have very little chance to draw it. You may never draw either tag as long as you live, odds are really low ever year for the rest of your life. Still want to do it?"
> 
> Trying to find out which "straight faced" conversation is better here? I laugh that people think full random draw solves any problem with point creep. It is just another way to distribute few tags to many applicants. It doesn't fix anything.


I completely get your point 'nilla and I have had that conversation with myself (you should hear the $#I7 I say to myself when I do) and with my kids. It is not my intention to make it sound like everyone will be happy and unicorns will fart trophy tags for everyone. What a random draw does is give everyone the same chance/odds. Tags/hunting are a privilege, not a right and not an entitlement.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

The trouble with going from a true preference point system (like CO) or a hybridized preference/bonus point system (like Utah's) to straight random (like NM or ID) is that you literally screw those people who have been paying into and playing the game the way it was offered to them 10, 20, sometimes almost 30 years ago. To just wipe that out and go to a straight random draw is not a fair way to go about it. I guess, if it were to happen, the only way to make it "slightly" fair would be for the various state wildlife agencies to refund you all the money that you spent over the years for app fees, bonus point fees, and license fees, but of course, they wouldn't do this because it would blow a hole the size of TX in game department budgets. That is though, IMO, the only fair way to go from the various preference / bonus point systems in place now to straight draw in the future. To be honest, it would suck to lose 20 years of seniority in the draws, but if you were to be refunded all the money you put into the system, hunters wouldn't have too much to really grump about.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

MWScott72 said:


> The trouble with going from a true preference point system (like CO) or a hybridized preference/bonus point system (like Utah's) to straight random (like NM or ID) is that you literally screw those people who have been paying into and playing the game the way it was offered to them 10, 20, sometimes almost 30 years ago. To just wipe that out and go to a straight random draw is not a fair way to go about it. I guess, if it were to happen, the only way to make it "slightly" fair would be for the various state wildlife agencies to refund you all the money that you spent over the years for app fees, bonus point fees, and license fees, but of course, they wouldn't do this because it would blow a hole the size of TX in game department budgets. That is though, IMO, the only fair way to go from the various preference / bonus point systems in place now to straight draw in the future. To be honest, it would suck to lose 20 years of seniority in the draws, but if you were to be refunded all the money you put into the system, hunters wouldn't have too much to really grump about.


Except you did receive a benefit from those points you paid for already. Each point gave you an extra application in the random pool, your luck just sucks.

While I really do think random draw is the most "fair" way to approach it, I know it is a hard sell for those that feel like they have invested in their points and are owed something (and this perception is a big part of the problem IMO). Perhaps the right middle ground is to just do away with the 50% bonus pool tag allocation. People still get to accrue points and have extra chances in the draw, but it eliminates the false hope that eventually you will be guaranteed a tag.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

johnnycake said:


> I know it is a hard sell for those that feel like they have invested in their points and are owed something (and this perception is a big part of the problem IMO).


People keep mentioning this feeling of entitlement. If you were told, "If you do X, Y will happen." Is it reasonable for someone to think Y is going to happen if they do X?

This isn't entitlement. Nobody feels like they are owed anything. It's the system that is set up. If I play by the rules, I expect the results. If they change the rules, you change expectations, but I'm not going to listen to the hullabaloo about "entitlement" on the point system anymore. That is a gross misunderstanding of the word.

Yes tushycake, I know you didn't use the word, but others have. Many times.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Vanilla said:


> People keep mentioning this feeling of entitlement. If you were told, "If you do X, Y will happen." Is it reasonable for someone to think Y is going to happen if they do X?
> 
> This isn't entitlement. Nobody feels like they are owed anything. It's the system that is set up. If I play by the rules, I expect the results. If they change the rules, you change expectations, but I'm not going to listen to the hullabaloo about "entitlement" on the point system anymore. That is a gross misunderstanding of the word.
> 
> Yes tushycake, I know you didn't use the word, but others have. Many times.


I used it. I stand by it. The reason for that is that unlike you, who doesn't feel entitled or owed, many do feel entitled. They should get theirs the rest be damned; that is entitlement.

Having said that.... I hand the TOTP to the next guy!


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Why not ....

Why should someone one who has been promised a chance in black and white and spent the time and money to keep putting in for the chance be labeled entitled?

They embraced the philosophy of if I keep putting in eventually I'll get a tag. Either early with a random draw or eventually (when ever that may be) with a guaranteed tag.

Why is it that some of you think you are entitled to a chance to draw a tag in a full random draw?

Rules. Change the rules if you insist. And when you still never get a tag quit complaining. Life has never been fair.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

middlefork said:


> Why not ....
> 
> Why should someone one who has been promised a chance in black and white and spent the time and money to keep putting in for the chance be labeled entitled?
> 
> ...


And it never will be. So, society needs to stop trying to make it fair.


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