# unlimited any bull tags?



## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/d...g-game-hunting-changes/ar-BB1aF6hU?li=BBnb7Kz

???

-DallanC


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The LE proposals are....interesting. 

I'm interested to hear people that know more about the Boulder how the September archery and October/November HAMS hunts, taking rifle out of it completely, will impact opportunity. I wonder if this is the nod to SFW on their complaint that the average Joe state draw hunter was killing too many of their big bulls?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

I can't find a link to the Boulder unit boundary changes. Does someone have one?


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> The LE proposals are....interesting.
> 
> I'm interested to hear people that know more about the Boulder how the September archery and October/November HAMS hunts, taking rifle out of it completely, will impact opportunity. I wonder if this is the nod to SFW on their complaint that the average Joe state draw hunter was killing too many of their big bulls?


I don't know, but it seems like this proposal should increase opportunity but maybe limit the success rates....


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

https://wildlife.utah.gov/agendas-materials-minutes.html

Go to the Proposals Watch/feedback under Nov/Dec.

..


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> I'm interested to hear people that know more about the Boulder how the September archery and October/November HAMS hunts, taking rifle out of it completely, will impact opportunity. I wonder if this is the nod to SFW on their complaint that the average Joe state draw hunter was killing too many of their big bulls?


I don't know for sure, but I think this might affect only the south side of highway 12 -- basically, the Canaan mountain. I haven't seen any of the comments, or RAC proposal, but my understanding is that we have a handful of elk that end up over there that rarely get hunted. By making a new HAMS hunt, and cutting that into a sub-unit, you just might be able to give out more opportunity for people willing to hunt an area that may not have the highest quality and numbers. This will be interesting to see if this is the case. If it is, wouldn't it be just opposite of what SFW wanted with the Barney Top?


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

interesting. Just looked at the packet. Looks like they included the Barney Top. That's too bad. That will cause contention with the rest of the Boulder unit. Had they just gone with the area south of highway 12 (using the 50 mile or Smokey Mtn road as the eastern boundary), I think this could have been good. Maybe it still could?


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)




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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Leave it to Utah to mess up what they have--I strongly disagree with the unlimited any bull elk permits. It's already crowded enough and now they want to open the flood gates. I am glad they are bringing in other areas with this proposal but those areas are going to be shot out after a season and we will be back to square one, just like the last time they expanded the any bull units. After that we go back to everyone piling into the uintas at an unlimited rate. This is crazy pants to me. The DWR needs to come to grips that we have a booming human population, limited habitat, limited animals, and ever increasing weapon lethality. I guess I can make an appearance at the central rac--doubt it will help but it's more worth while than complaining on the internet...maybe


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> interesting. Just looked at the packet. Looks like they included the Barney Top. That's too bad. That will cause contention with the rest of the Boulder unit. Had they just gone with the area south of highway 12 (using the 50 mile or Smokey Mtn road as the eastern boundary), I think this could have been good. Maybe it still could?


So it's exactly what SFW griped about?


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## APD (Nov 16, 2008)

Ok, let's compromise...random draw with unlimited permits.


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## MWScott72 (May 23, 2011)

Packout said:


> https://wildlife.utah.gov/agendas-materials-minutes.html
> 
> Go to the Proposals Watch/feedback under Nov/Dec.
> 
> ..


Curious what you think about the unlimited any bull tags Mike since you're on the Central RAC. These units are typically harder hunts and perhaps the unlimited tags won't be an issue harvest-wise, but I wonder if the extra pressure will drop success rates even more. I'm not sold either way at this point...


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Airborne said:


> Leave it to Utah to mess up what they have--I strongly disagree with the unlimited any bull elk permits. It's already crowded enough and now they want to open the flood gates. I am glad they are bringing in other areas with this proposal but those areas are going to be shot out after a season and we will be back to square one, just like the last time they expanded the any bull units. After that we go back to everyone piling into the uintas at an unlimited rate. This is crazy pants to me. The DWR needs to come to grips that we have a booming human population, limited habitat, limited animals, and ever increasing weapon lethality. I guess I can make an appearance at the central rac--doubt it will help but it's more worth while than complaining on the internet...maybe


THIS x1,000,000

It seems to me some "important people" missed out on their any bull tag due to the system issue, and the dramatically increased demand for any bull tags earlier this year. So instead of fixing the system, telling people "life just isn't fair - get over it," we are now going to open the flood gates so no one gets left out?!?

Sheer morons ...


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

CPAjeff said:


> Airborne said:
> 
> 
> > Leave it to Utah to mess up what they have--I strongly disagree with the unlimited any bull elk permits. It's already crowded enough and now they want to open the flood gates. I am glad they are bringing in other areas with this proposal but those areas are going to be shot out after a season and we will be back to square one, just like the last time they expanded the any bull units. After that we go back to everyone piling into the uintas at an unlimited rate. This is crazy pants to me. The DWR needs to come to grips that we have a booming human population, limited habitat, limited animals, and ever increasing weapon lethality. I guess I can make an appearance at the central rac--doubt it will help but it's more worth while than complaining on the internet...maybe
> ...


100%.... the DWR strikes again! Masters at lazy management. Did anybody catch the comment that he made in regards of keeping the spike tags set at 15k because they feel it maintains the quality of the units??
Sooo doesn't that meant they don't give a S H I T about the quality of the OTC units? Of course it does! Lazy management, if you can even call it that " aw, to hell with the any bull units, let's just throw all the hunters in the mix all at once, Push and shove everyone!"
Another thing, they can get rid of the multi season tag ( or at least put it in as a limited draw system, separate from real LE elk)

Without a doubt, the multi season tag put a lot more people in the forest. Ever since then I have seen more and more people hitting the hills and they all say the same thing. " I'm a rifle hunter but, got a multi season tag so I can do all 3 hunts"


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

Remember when 5 years ago utah hunters were screaming for opportunities over quality? We’re getting it.... and everyone is pissed haha


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Behind the curve....what does acronym "HAMS" mean? Just hoping to have this figured out by the time my fetus is old enough to hunt on occasion. 

****, I'm getting old. Get off my lawn! Life should come with a manual.


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## Isuckathunting (Sep 15, 2019)

backcountry said:


> Behind the curve....what does acronym "HAMS" mean? Just hoping to have this figured out by the time my fetus is old enough to hunt on occasion.
> 
> ****, I'm getting old. Get off my lawn! Life should come with a manual.


Handgun, Archery, Muzzleloader, Shotgun


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

Unlimited tags are a joke. Terrible idea on an already tough hunt. Leave your feedback for your local RAC!

https://wildlife.utah.gov/feedback.html

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

We already have an unlimited tags option, pick up a bow. This doesn't make any sense. I think it is sad that DWR is being bullied.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

Does this also mean unlimited Multiseason Any bull Tags. If this is over money Raise the price of the tag. Think how crowded it will be now.


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## justismi28 (Aug 19, 2014)

It seems they are once again making decisions managing the hunters and not the animals. The almighty dollar wins out once again. 

On the bright side, I may not need to be in a queue the instant tags go on sale this coming year and can pick one up at my leisure.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

It's as the saying goes:

Be wary of what you ask for, you just may get it..


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

The unlimited tags are actually less bothersome to me than the LE change on the Boulder. 

It's yet to be determined that a huge amount of more people will be out there on the general elk hunt, and they did add a few areas to spread people out as well. 

However, you've just taken rifle hunting completely out of a portion of one of the premium elk units in the entire United States. I don't want to sound the alarm too loudly, but I hope people are paying attention. SFW is getting exactly what they want, it just took two years for the change to be implemented, hoping the rest of us would forget they asked for this and it can just be put on the "elk committee" as a recommendation.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Anyone know which new areas will be added to GS Open Bull?


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I can see the bumper sticker now "2021 Kill Em & be Done"


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

shaner said:


> Anyone know which new areas will be added to GS Open Bull?


It's talked about in the video presentation linked in the thread. It's a good watch for anyone wondering what is going on here.

Box Elder Sawtooth
Nine Mile, Anthro 
Oquirrh-Stansbury, East 
Southwest Desert, North

Here is a link to the RAC packet so you can view the boundaries for each: https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac/2020-11-rac-packet.pdf


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla said:


> The unlimited tags are actually less bothersome to me than the LE change on the Boulder.
> 
> ...
> 
> However, you've just taken rifle hunting completely out of a portion of one of the premium elk units in the entire United States.


Well....I'm not sure about this. With the exception of the Barney Top, the rest of that area is comprised of areas not exactly known for elk. Sure, there are elk out there, but not many. And it isn't an area that is traditionally hunted by LE elk tag holders. So, I think that this could still provide some opportunity for people to get tags for an area that might not be the "premium" area, and spread out some opportunity.

I think they could have come to the same conclusion by just opening that area up as an "any bull" area for people with general tags, and leave the whole draw experience alone.

I'm still not sure that this is a bad thing for the Boulder.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> With the exception of the Barney Top...


Which is exactly what SFW asked for. Why? Not for opportunity, I assure you that!


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> The LE proposals are....interesting.
> 
> I'm interested to hear people that know more about the Boulder how the September archery and October/November HAMS hunts, taking rifle out of it completely, will impact opportunity. I wonder if this is the nod to SFW on their complaint that the average Joe state draw hunter was killing too many of their big bulls?


Is it common elsewhere to forgo a rifle hunt?

That's the unit I want to do my LE elk so I'm against it for selfish reasons. I just like that area and was hoping to use my experience to get the chance at a healthy bull in the future.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

backcountry said:


> Is it common elsewhere to forgo a rifle hunt?


To my knowledge, this will be the first LE elk unit in Utah history that does not offer a LE rifle hunt.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

backcountry -- did you intend to hunt either the Barney or the Canaan?

that's what doesn't worry me. People currently are not hunting the Canaan for elk. They just don't. Why not split that portion off and open it up?

Let's work this thing, and just cut the Barney Top out of the proposal.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

PBH said:


> Let's work this thing, and just cut the Barney Top out of the proposal.


But that's exactly what SFW asked for, is Barney Top. That *IS* this proposal. The rest is just a throw in.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

Vanilla -- I agree. I understand that. Sure, I don't like the Barney Top idea -- because it's selfish for SFW to try to protect those bulls to kill them on the Dutton instead.


But, from my own selfishness, I see advantages to me with the Canaan. So, I'll do what i can to convince whomever to cut the Barney out, but open up the south side of highway 12.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

PBH said:


> backcountry -- did you intend to hunt either the Barney or the Canaan?
> 
> that's what doesn't worry me. People currently are not hunting the Canaan for elk. They just don't. Why not split that portion off and open it up?
> 
> Let's work this thing, and just cut the Barney Top out of the proposal.


I have no experience in the Canaan section myself. It's on my radar for future explorations for deer but haven't done it yet. I'm pretty interested in getting to know the entire region over the decades though, as it's one of my reasons to hunt.

That said, shouldn't the managers have done the initial work to better pinpoint the new hunts and limitations? I ask from a basic negotiation standpoint as them going to the table with such a massive ask doesn't bode well for rifle hunters like myself. Final compromises are often defined by scope of initial offers. And currently that's a massive and unusual change being proposed.

I'm not as versed on the history of the proposal as many here and I'm pretty flexible. But I'm just not sure I'm interested in swallowing this particular pill. I really need to dive into the boundaries and documents better though before I formally decide my stance.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Regarding the unlimited GS rifle Elk. For the sake of discussion and since it is fun: What if we went with the unlimited tag model but changed the any weapons season to HAMS only in Wilderness areas or maybe even all of Ashley National Forest? You can still use your high powered super awesome 1200 yard rifle in all the other open areas that are teaming with elk!

I am trying to think of ways to disperse GS Elk hunting pressure throughout the open areas while maintaining the unlimited model. That is what I came up with. 
The DWR could still say that they offer all the 'opportunity' in the world and can continue to 'inspire' us; but it would be self-limiting because of the weapons restriction. It is my understanding that HAMS hunts do NOT allow scopes on weapons which I think is a good thing. You can continue to use your 800-yard capable scoped muzzleloader in November as normal. 

I would also be in favor of getting rid of the multi season tags since we are now instituting this unlimited model. Again--not gonna happen but that would be my hope. 

I will write letters and emails but I’m confident their recommendations will all be rubber stamped as usual


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)




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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

I fell like this is the DWR's solution because they can't handle a crowded online point of sales system. Just wait--the capped spike tags are gonna be in the same boat really quickly but they won't make that unlimited of course--too much money involved in limited entry areas!


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## derekp1999 (Nov 17, 2011)

Unlimited any bull tags is a tough one for me to swallow especially with the advent of the multi-season tags. It's hard for me to wrap my head around how both can co-exist and still maintain any semblance of hunter satisfaction. I guess my opinion would be to have one or the other & not both. So if the end result is unlimited any bull tags then the multi-season tags should be discontinued.

All the other proposals are non-impactful to me personally so I have not taken the time or effort to develop an opinion on them.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Here is the writeup I sent to the Central RAC. Feel free to copy and past to send to your RAC if ya want--I'm not perfect and might be wrong here but these are my thoughts:

Wildlife Board Member,

I am writing you regarding my strong opposition to the proposed unlimited tags for the General Season Any Bull elk hunt. Utah has a booming human population and with this comes growing pains. While hunter numbers continue to grow our wildlife and habitat numbers stay stagnant or decrease. I understand that the DWR wants to offer an over the counter hunt to appease the masses, but the fact remains we have a limited resource and ever-increasing demand. If this proposal is accepted, it will overcrowd areas that are already teaming with hunters under the capped 15k tags system. You are ruining a decades old hunt for the sake of ‘opportunity’ not understanding that this will not help your cause but will ultimately hurt it with a circus of hunters crammed in inadequate areas.

The added any bull areas are a feeble attempt to disperse hunting pressure. Much like the last time the any bull areas were expanded; this will be a flash in the pan as the herd is shot out of the new areas in one season and then we will be back to now unlimited hunters moving into areas that hold more than a sprinkling of elk. 

This is a radical departure from precedent and should be looked at with extreme scrutiny. Are there other options available before we throw in the towel and ruin the experience of thousands of general season hunters who have enjoyed this hunt for the past decades? I understand the DWR wants to wash their hands of this hunt especially since the failure of their tag sales system this year. That is no excuse to ruin a valued hunt because they cannot properly run a point of sale system. A word of caution; the cap on spiked tags will result in future demand and in years to come the problems you saw this year for GS elk will be the same for the spike elk hunt.

Not wanting to be completely closed to alternatives and change; here are some potential alternative solutions to consider. They are not mutually exclusive:

1.	Hire competent computer folks to handle the increased OTC tags point of sales system so we do not have the issues we did in 2020.

2.	Use the unlimited tags General Season Elk model but change the ‘any legal weapons’ season to the ‘H.A.M.S weapons’ within the Ashley National Forest for the hunt. This will encourage dispersion and lessen crowding as those that want to use a centerfire rifle can hunt the other open areas while the heart of the General season elk areas would be limited to Handgun, Archery, Muzzleloader, and Shotgun (no scopes) during the otherwise rifle season. This would help solve the problem of hunter crowding while meeting the DWR’s recommendation of increased opportunity. The H.A.M.S hunts are a great way to look outside the box and give hunters added opportunity. Keep in mind there are plenty of any bull elk areas outside the Ashley National Forest Boundaries and the enforcement of this should be easy.

3.	Increase the OTC tags available for the General Season hunt to 20,000 but split the hunt up into different areas to enforce dispersal and lessen crowding. Perhaps three areas to choose from: Open areas West of I15, The Ashley National Forest, and open areas East of I15. Place caps on each area appropriate to the level of elk in the areas or to mirror the past distribution of hunters as a percent of total.

4.	Stop offering multi-season tags for the General Elk hunt. This has increased crowding the past couple of years as otherwise dedicated archers are buying these tags and hunting all three seasons. As a GS rifle hunter, I have seen the crowding firsthand! The DWR will make up this money with the increase of sales because the tags would be unlimited.

5.	Keep the hunt as is—why ruin a good thing! Yes, it is going to sell out quickly but so be it—it is a limited resource with unlimited demand—something has to give.

6.	Move the General Season hunt into a draw using preference points. If hunters want unlimited OTC tags they can continue to buy general archery tags as has been the case for decades. Archery success and the tools needed to be successful limit the crowding of this hunt while still offering a quality opportunity. 

Please consider these and other alternatives to the full unlimited proposal. There are other ways we can increase opportunity without throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. 

Thank you for your time


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

I am in favor for unlimited any bull tags. We need a hunt in Utah that is OTC. 

Utah elk herds are managed so people who don't know how to hunt can go kill a 6 point once every 20 years. Hunting bulls in the peak of the rut with a rifle is silly and reduces the throughput in the point system. We could issue way more LE tags if we didn't shoot all the bulls from across the canyon while they are bugling.

We need an opportunity where people can go every year if they want. Not purely managed for big bulls.


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## twall13 (Aug 2, 2015)

After the GS Elk Tag Fiasco selling out so quickly this year I fully expected changes. I was thinking we were quickly headed towards a preference point system like they did with the GS Deer hunt. This wasn't even on my radar. Whether it has an immediate impact on the number of hunters in the field remains to be seen but I don't like the direction it's headed.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Honestly, I am in favor of unlimited OTC any bull. I like seeing opportunity, and I think Utah has erred way too far on the "protect quality at the cost of opportunity" side of things when it comes to elk for the past +20 years. 

One way that I think UT could improve the proposal would be to have the GS any bull tags be unlimited, but make it harvest objective with quotas and mandatory check-in/reporting. The state sells more tags=$$$, hunters can go out into the crowds with a tag in their pocket = opportunity, but putting quotas on the subunits in theory helps to manage the herd sustainably. But that would be far too rational and complicated. And if you are miffed about your subunit closing before you had a chance to go out, then I'm sure the janitor at the DWR office in an LE unit on the other side of the State will manage to take care of you in a pinch though.


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## flyfisher20 (Aug 5, 2011)

torowy said:


> I am in favor for unlimited any bull tags. We need a hunt in Utah that is OTC.
> 
> Utah elk herds are managed so people who don't know how to hunt can go kill a 6 point once every 20 years. Hunting bulls in the peak of the rut with a rifle is silly and reduces the throughput in the point system. We could issue way more LE tags if we didn't shoot all the bulls from across the canyon while they are bugling.
> 
> We need an opportunity where people can go every year if they want. Not purely managed for big bulls.


People already have that opportunity. General archery elk tags are already unlimited. All you have to do is pick up a bow and take advantage of the opportunity.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks Vanilla.


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

torowy said:


> I am in favor for unlimited any bull tags. We need a hunt in Utah that is OTC.
> 
> Utah elk herds are managed so people who don't know how to hunt can go kill a 6 point once every 20 years. Hunting bulls in the peak of the rut with a rifle is silly and reduces the throughput in the point system. We could issue way more LE tags if we didn't shoot all the bulls from across the canyon while they are bugling.
> 
> We need an opportunity where people can go every year if they want. Not purely managed for big bulls.


We already have one...pick up a bow and hunt elk every year!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Not everyone is able to hunt with a bow. Now if they legalized crossbows for the archery season that would be different 

Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

Critter said:


> Not everyone is able to hunt with a bow. Now if they legalized crossbows for the archery season that would be different
> 
> Sent from my SM-J737V using Tapatalk


There are medical exceptions for crossbows that can be granted for those who "can't" hunt with a normal bow set up.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

quit encouraging more bow hunters. There are already too many rifle hunters walking around with bows trying to shoot 100 yards as it is....

:-?


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## 2full (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm not crazy about unlimited open bull, will turn it into a zoo hunt, esp on public land.
But, on a positive note at least I will be able to hunt my own place next year. 
I was planning on taking the day off they went on sale next year to make sure I got the tag after the fiasco this year. -O,-


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I wish the state would hold off and see what a non pandemic year would bring. How many 1st time hunters have already quit. 
Plus the elk herds have rebounded nicely from when it was unlimited elk tags from the 90's why ruin it to manage people not the animals.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Kind of funny to see the outrage. Everybody complained about not getting a tag and now complains that they won't have to draw.

The any bull units have such a low success rating do you think it will get worse? All more people will do is drive them further into hiding. I'll throw in all the hunt harder, farther and smarter comments.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

The only thing Iv ever complained about was the multi season tag option and starting the archery elk hunt in late August instead of the whole month of September. 

I realize that “opportunity” doesn’t mean having a tag every year. 

If I have a tag, I want an reasonable opportunity at an animal otherwise the tag I’m my pocket is meaningless. I’ve been hunting long enough to learn to give people more credit than I thought they deserve with that said, there will be more elk being killed which is decreasing reasonable opportunity at being successful. Sure, you’ll have an opportunity to get a tag every year but, your success rate will continue to plummet and we will find ourselves in a extremely bad situation that we will be scrambling to find fixes and solutions to undo what we’ve done. 

Someone in here said it best, we’ve gone from managing animals to managing people.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Pretty much been managing people since the 90's. A raging success yes? Keep cutting tags everything will get better.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

I never said cut tags but yes, I will absolutely say DONT make them unlimited. That’s the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard from the Dwr and I’ve heard a lot


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

So increase the quota until everyone who wants one gets one but unlimited is bad? Maybe they or you don't have the magic number. Give it a year then both you and the division will have a magic number as to the demand.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

middlefork said:


> So increase the quota until everyone who wants one gets one but unlimited is bad? Maybe they or you don't have the magic number. Give it a year then both you and the division will have a magic number as to the demand.


I'm not one for participation trophies...

I never said everyone who wants one should get one either... that falls under the "unlimited" portion..


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

I wish the entire State for deer and elk was under the HAMS regulations.
In two or three years we would have so many animals deer tags could go back to unlimited OTC.


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## Packout (Nov 20, 2007)

shaner said:


> I wish the entire State for deer and elk was under the HAMS regulations.
> In two or three years we would have so many animals deer tags could go back to unlimited OTC.


This!


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I think unlimited any bull tags is a terrible idea. I don't mind the current unlimited archery tags and I wouldn't mind a little increase in the any bull permits.
Something like:
- 15k any weapon tags
- 5k muzzle loader tags
- 5k multi-season tags


That would be 10k more than we have now and that should be plenty.
Also, no more buying online. Either buy in person or through the draw as a preference point system.


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## TheHunted (Feb 22, 2016)

I’m all for the unlimited bull tags in general units. More hunters won’t equal more kills. What’s the saying... 10% of the hunters kill 90% of the game. It’s so nice being out on the mountain when someone else is pushing a patch of pines for you. 

While we’re at it let’s get rid of LE elk all together. Let’s start managing for more opportunity as opposed to more trophy’s! Too many people want to hunt these days.


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## dham088 (Jan 11, 2015)

I’m super interested to see where this goes. I saw a DWR post on Instagram and a ksl article. Both had 99% extremely negative comments. Will public opinion sway any of this? At the same time it feels a little hypocritical to complain that public opinion doesn’t count on this but also complain that Colorado, California, and Canada allow wildlife management through public opinion (wolves, grizzlies) instead of science.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

I'm guessing most don't remember or (weren't born yet) how bad the elk hunting was when the most of the state was pretty much unlimited anybull hunting. That is the last thing we would want. You can actually find elk now and the success rates on spikes "i'm GUESSING here" is better than the anybull back in the day.
The division says we need this for families to go camping. You don't need a permit to go camping as a family.


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## rtockstein (Mar 17, 2019)

I shared my opinion on their web site. 

I also think unlimited tags is ridiculous. If they want to offer more tags, I think they ought to go to the system of sub units and manage unit specific tag numbers based on mandatory harvest reporting. That might help avoid excessive crowding with increased tag numbers. 

I don't want to be worried for the safety of my kids when we're hunting a rifle season together. It will be much too easy for some yahoo "long range hunter " to sling bullets 700 yards over the top of other hunters they don't know are there.


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## torowy (Jun 19, 2008)

To the people that say pick up a bow and hunt those unlimited tags....

There are a large portion of hunters that is not really realistic for.
1. How many people do you know that started bow hunting before gun hunting (in the west). Very few.
2. Bow hunting is harder and it takes more time to develop the skills to do it.
3. Bow hunting is more solo focused, and thus harder to learn hunting skills from someone else.
4. It's expensive to gear for. Bows, arrows, broadheads, non-orange gear... If you can afford that, you can afford to hunt out of state as well.

We need a place that "normal" people can hunt and build a hunting tradition. Its not the same when you are not carrying a gun, and are just along as a spotter. Rarely do I run into a group of people hunting that all have tags. That used to be the norm. 5 guys on a ridge = 5 guns. Now its 1 gun and 4 people that wish they drew. These are on "general" deer units.

If we are talking trophy class animals, like on the LE units. I think it is justified to expect that higher level of commitment that bow hunting required.

And if you were talking directly to me.... I do pick up my bow and go. But in all my years hunting in Utah. I have only hunted anybull units two seasons. Once with a bow and once with rifle. I am not the demographic that needs the otc opportunity. I, like many of us on these forums, build points in multiple states, have a 5 year plan. I know I can have at least 1 hunt for trophy class animals each season.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

torowy said:


> To the people that say pick up a bow and hunt those unlimited tags....
> 
> There are a large portion of hunters that is not really realistic for.
> 1. How many people do you know that started bow hunting before gun hunting (in the west). Very few.
> ...


Maybe those guys can just rifle hunt during archery season wouldn't want them to have learn a new skill.

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## flyfisher20 (Aug 5, 2011)

torowy said:


> To the people that say pick up a bow and hunt those unlimited tags....
> 
> There are a large portion of hunters that is not really realistic for.
> 1. How many people do you know that started bow hunting before gun hunting (in the west). Very few.
> ...


Replies to your 4 points:

1. What weapon you started to hunt with has nothing to do with it.
2. We are talking about opportunity, not ease of killing. 
3. Myself and many others bow hunt in groups, especially for elk.
4. Bows are no more expensive than guns and in many cases cheaper. Like guns, it all depends what you want. You don't need expensive camo clothing to bow hunt. I afford to bow hunt but I don't have excess funds to hunt in other states. To hunt in other states also requires more time in most cases. Archery tags cost the same as rifle tags.

We are talking about opportunity, not convenience. If you really want opportunity then it already exists in the form of unlimited archery tags.

Not trying to be combative, just stating my point of view.

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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

torowy said:


> To the people that say pick up a bow and hunt those unlimited tags....
> 
> There are a large portion of hunters that is not really realistic for.If someone physically cannot pull back a bow they can get a Dr's note and use a crossbow. If it's important to folks they will make it happen
> 1. How many people do you know that started bow hunting before gun hunting (in the west). Very few.I don't know why this matters, if ya want to bow hunt then do it, what you started doing is not relevant to the conversation in my opinion
> ...


I appreciate your point of view man--I really do and ya seem like a good dude so please don't take my responses above as being mean. I disagree with you and posted why. Hope you will reconsider your position.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Leave it alone if this is the plan.


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## flyfisher20 (Aug 5, 2011)

Airborne said:


> I appreciate your point of view man--I really do and ya seem like a good dude so please don't take my responses above as being mean. I disagree with you and posted why. Hope you will reconsider your position.


Thank you for explaining better what I tried to do.

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## Drizzle08 (Sep 30, 2016)

I say every other year make it archery only opens aug15 to oct31


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

This https://le.utah.gov/GIS/findDistrict.jsp

Let your elected representatives know if you object.

Troy Rushton


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

If they get rid of the multi season tags (even though I selfishly like these for myself), that will help a ton. Make guys pick a season and go hunt. Separate the rifle and muzzy tag pools if needed, instead of having them all come out of the same pot?

Increase the total tag count a little (as long as they add in some of those extra areas to hunt), but don't go to unlimited.

These items will help with crowding and keep the quality of hunt similar (or maybe even better) to what it is now.

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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Anybody know the dates of the Youth Any Bull season?


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## Slayer (Feb 3, 2013)

copple2 said:


> If they get rid of the multi season tags (even though I selfishly like these for myself), that will help a ton. Make guys pick a season and go hunt. Separate the rifle and muzzy tag pools if needed, instead of having them all come out of the same pot?
> 
> Increase the total tag count a little (as long as they add in some of those extra areas to hunt), but don't go to unlimited.
> 
> ...


Totally Agree!!!


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

If you live in the Central region, check out the RAC meeting. Starts at 6pm tonight!






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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

shaner said:


> Anybody know the dates of the Youth Any Bull season?


It will fall back a week from this years date. Whatever that might be. The whole schedule does that based on the calendar.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

Central RAC recommended increasing general rifle elk tags to 20,000 cap and making the general elk rifle tags unlimited to youth hunters. I think this aligned with SFW’s recommendation (knock me over with a feather!). They recommended the elk committee revisit the issue in two years and fiddle with it again at that time as well. So there ya have it. I disagreed with some of what they had to say and agreed with others. Ultimately the Wildlife board will make the call on this, I’m betting dollars to donuts that the SFW recommendation will ultimately win the day.

Please correct me if I am wrong on what I heard, I can make mistakes like anyone.


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## Brookie (Oct 26, 2008)

So refund the application fees for those youth that haven't draw the tag up to this point? Or is the early hunt still limited with this proposal.


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

The early youth tag will still be a draw and will still be limited. These youth tags that were suggested are for youth tags during the normal general season any bull dates and hunts. 

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Brookie said:


> So refund the application fees for those youth that haven't draw the tag up to this point? Or is the early hunt still limited with this proposal.


Hypothetical: say the early youth hunt did go to unlimited next year. Why would they refund application fees for those that didn't draw in the past? It was a draw when they applied. I am not understanding the thought there. Help me out.

Edit: just to be clear, I know it's still a draw. The above purely hypothetical so I can better understand the comment.


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

I mostly liked the suggestions by the Central RAC last night in regards to general any bull tags. 20,000 tags, unlimited youth tags, open the new areas and tack on an additional 9 days to the end of the archery season. I think I can get on board with that.

I wish the multi season tags would have gotten squashed, but maybe some of the other RAC's will recommend that.


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## Bowhunter50 (Oct 14, 2014)

copple2 said:


> I mostly liked the suggestions by the Central RAC last night in regards to general any bull tags. 20,000 tags, unlimited youth tags, open the new areas and tack on an additional 9 days to the end of the archery season. I think I can get on board with that.
> 
> I wish the multi season tags would have gotten squashed, but maybe some of the other RAC's will recommend that.


Did they mention adding 9 days to the end of archery season in the meeting? Guessing this would just be for any bull otc units and not apply to archery deer hunts and spike units?

I would be all for 20k tags, unlimited youth, opening the new areas and adding 9 days to the end of archery any bull units. I'm definitely opposed to the unlimited tags...


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

Bowhunter50 said:


> Did they mention adding 9 days to the end of archery season in the meeting? Guessing this would just be for any bull otc units and not apply to archery deer hunts and spike units?
> 
> I would be all for 20k tags, unlimited youth, opening the new areas and adding 9 days to the end of archery any bull units. I'm definitely opposed to the unlimited tags...


Yes, they did and it was just as you had assumed. Only for any bull general units. Not for spike elk or deer hunts.

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## Bowhunter50 (Oct 14, 2014)

copple2 said:


> Yes, they did and it was just as you had assumed. Only for any bull general units. Not for spike elk or deer hunts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


That would be awesome. A lot of people have complained about not being able to hunt deeper into the rut with archery tackle. Hopefully this goes through...


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## TheHunted (Feb 22, 2016)

Bowhunter50 said:


> copple2 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, they did and it was just as you had assumed. Only for any bull general units. Not for spike elk or deer hunts.
> ...


Sure, why not, let's cater to the archery crowd even more. Cuz you know we haven't done that recently.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Basically, every other Western state leaves the whole of September for archery hunters. 

What's so bad about not hammering bulls at 1k yards during the prime rut @TheHunted? Seems like a win-win to me. If you wanna hunt in the rut, pick up a bow. If you wanna shoot real far, wait a bit. There ain't gonna be that many more bulls killed than there already are during the archery hunt. 

If any group is catered to in Utah, it's rifle hunters. Rifles should never get to shoot before muzzle loaders. Yet that's our "normal" here.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

When did they talk about and vote on the 9 extra days of archery season, can someone tell me about the time they did that on the youtube video? I don't want to struggle through that meeting again!

I found it interesting that they received like 50+ emails saying NO to the unlimited tags and 2 emails in favor and you still had RAC members that were all in favor for it. If you are literally there to represent hunters and 95+% want you to vote one way and you go against that you are not doing your job! I don't care if you 'think' you are representing some silent majority--that's all in your head and you are projecting your own opinion. 

Next time I see Ben Lowder up at the Timp range I'm going to ask him the same questions--I like Ben but he and others are not representing the majority--they are mischaracterizing sentiment to the Wildlife Board and it's frankly BS. Somebody had to say it!


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Airborne said:


> When did they talk about and vote on the 9 extra days of archery season, can someone tell me about the time they did that on the youtube video? I don't want to struggle through that meeting again!
> 
> I found it interesting that they received like 50+ emails saying NO to the unlimited tags and 2 emails in favor and you still had RAC members that were all in favor for it. If you are literally there to represent hunters and 95+% want you to vote one way and you go against that you are not doing your job! I don't care if you 'think' you are representing some silent majority--that's all in your head and you are projecting your own opinion.
> 
> Next time I see Ben Lowder up at the Timp range I'm going to ask him the same questions--I like Ben but he and others are not representing the majority--they are mischaracterizing sentiment to the Wildlife Board and it's frankly BS. Somebody had to say it!


While I agree with some of what you said, I think it is also important to note that RAC members are supposed to represent certain interest groups not necessarily hunters. For example, each RAC will have representatives for sportsmen, agriculture, at-large, the Forest Service, and even non-consumptive users. So, if a RAC member has received 50+ emails from sportsmen and one email from non-consumptive and that RAC member represents non-consumptive, he/she should vote in favor of the group he/she represents...in other words, it is not supposed to be a majority.

...for example, an agricultural rep on a RAC might vote for unlimited tags for agricultural reasons that actually hurt hunters (like unlimited tags).


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

wyoming2utah said:


> While I agree with some of what you said, I think it is also important to note that RAC members are supposed to represent certain interest groups not necessarily hunters. For example, each RAC will have representatives for sportsmen, agriculture, at-large, the Forest Service, and even non-consumptive users. So, if a RAC member has received 50+ emails from sportsmen and one email from non-consumptive and that RAC member represents non-consumptive, he/she should vote in favor of the group he/she represents...in other words, it is not supposed to be a majority.
> 
> ...for example, an agricultural rep on a RAC might vote for unlimited tags for agricultural reasons that actually hurt hunters (like unlimited tags).


This is spot on! Here is a breakdown of what each Central RAC member represents. Only 3 represent "sportsmen" technically. Ben, Scott and Mike are all "At Large" and don't represent a specific group.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

Airborne said:


> When did they talk about and vote on the 9 extra days of archery season, can someone tell me about the time they did that on the youtube video? I don't want to struggle through that meeting again!
> 
> I found it interesting that they received like 50+ emails saying NO to the unlimited tags and 2 emails in favor and you still had RAC members that were all in favor for it. If you are literally there to represent hunters and 95+% want you to vote one way and you go against that you are not doing your job! I don't care if you 'think' you are representing some silent majority--that's all in your head and you are projecting your own opinion.
> 
> Next time I see Ben Lowder up at the Timp range I'm going to ask him the same questions--I like Ben but he and others are not representing the majority--they are mischaracterizing sentiment to the Wildlife Board and it's frankly BS. Somebody had to say it!


I don't remember exactly what time it was when they voted on it, but the 9 day extension is my proposal, so I'm happy to answer any questions you have about it.


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## Bowhunter50 (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm a little new to this process. When will we know the final decision?


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

Bowhunter50 said:


> I'm a little new to this process. When will we know the final decision?


The wildlife board meeting is on December 3rd. We should know then.

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## Bookcliffs07 (Aug 11, 2020)

Manysteps, are you concerned about the overlap with the early youth any bull any weapon hunt during those extended 9 days? Those tags are actually really hard to draw (odds are about 1 in 15) and because it's hard to draw a lot of people think they are in for an awesome hunt. It's still a hard hunt on tough units. I wonder if a bunch of those parents and youth are gonna get ticked off if there are suddenly a bunch of archery guys on top of these kids trying to find a bull on a hard to hunt elk unit? Because this came up in the middle of the weird Covid modified online only public process the parents/youth that are interested in the early youth hunt aren't even aware of this conversation and might be really surprised next year if this goes through.


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## manysteps (Sep 28, 2009)

Bookcliffs07 said:


> Manysteps, are you concerned about the overlap with the early youth any bull any weapon hunt during those extended 9 days? Those tags are actually really hard to draw (odds are about 1 in 15) and because it's hard to draw a lot of people think they are in for an awesome hunt. It's still a hard hunt on tough units. I wonder if a bunch of those parents and youth are gonna get ticked off if there are suddenly a bunch of archery guys on top of these kids trying to find a bull on a hard to hunt elk unit? Because this came up in the middle of the weird Covid modified online only public process the parents/youth that are interested in the early youth hunt aren't even aware of this conversation and might be really surprised next year if this goes through.


That's one of the concerns I had as well, and I personally spoke to about 40 different people (both youth that had hunted it, as well as parents who's kids had the tag)

The results from that conversation were pretty much split 50/50 with two major concerns really coming to the surface.

#1 was a concern about archers and hunter orange... the youth any bull is considered a general season tag, so hunter orange would be a requirement during those 9 days.

The other was of course the added pressure during the youth hunt, and frankly I don't really see it being a huge detriment for those youth.

Of course, 80% of the youth any bull hunters head for the North or South Slope units, so that's where the bulk of the overlap would happen.

Ultimately my goal with this proposal was to get the board to add it to the action log, and have the division come back next year with a formal proposal. (And that easily still could be what ends up happening with it)

Right now the momentum points to it possibly getting implemented for next year... I guess the board will decide.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

At least the archers could make use of the camo hunter orange that is legal to wear now.


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## 7mm Reloaded (Aug 25, 2015)

This a little off topic but am I reading it right in their proposals the general muzzy deer looks like its starting a week later 2021?


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

7MM RELOADED said:


> This a little off topic but am I reading it right in their proposals the general muzzy deer looks like its starting a week later 2021?


Dates this year for all general/LE hunts will be a little later. This is the normal date rotation and the latest dates available under the current management plans.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Yep, every season is rolled back next year.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

Moosemeat,

"Remember when 5 years ago utah hunters were screaming for opportunities over quality? We’re getting it.... and everyone is pissed haha"

Your "I told you so" jab is lame and disconnected from the discussions 5-years ago. I've been one to complain about opportunity on deer hunts when units were over objective and tags were not increased. I've pushed back as SFW tried to turn our state into a trophy commercial hunt. Nobody has asked for unlimited elk tags on the any bull hunt. Its an awful idea.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

Critter said:


> It's as the saying goes:
> 
> Be wary of what you ask for, you just may get it..


Who exactly asked for this?


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

torowy said:


> I am in favor for unlimited any bull tags. We need a hunt in Utah that is OTC.
> 
> Utah elk herds are managed so people who don't know how to hunt can go kill a 6 point once every 20 years. Hunting bulls in the peak of the rut with a rifle is silly and reduces the throughput in the point system. We could issue way more LE tags if we didn't shoot all the bulls from across the canyon while they are bugling.
> 
> We need an opportunity where people can go every year if they want. Not purely managed for big bulls.


In a lot of years I would agree with you. Historically it took weeks/months for elk tags to sell out. This is a really bad year to make the switch. There were tens of thousands turned away this year within the first day. DWR could have sold 100,000+ tags this year.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

provider said:


> Who exactly asked for this?


There are a lot of hunters who want it, they want to hunt. Most want all the tags to be over the counter with no limit, they want to be able to hunt the whole state and do away with the LE units. They don't see any need for a cap on spike or any bull tags.


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

Critter said:


> There are a lot of hunters who want it, they want to hunt. Most want all the tags to be over the counter with no limit, they want to be able to hunt the whole state and do away with the LE units. They don't see any need for a cap on spike or any bull tags.


I've never met any of these hunters myself. This would seem to align with an opportunity only mindset and not put much thought into preserving the resource and the experience long term.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

provider said:


> There were tens of thousands turned away this year within the first day. DWR could have sold 100,000+ tags this year.


Do you know for fact that this was the case? Or is this based on the erroneous tally showing up of how many were in line?

I understand the spike tags being limited to insure hunt able bulls on the LE units. I think the division is looking at what they think the any bull areas can handle. I don't hunt them but the success rate doesn't seem to indicate a slaughter on the any bull units.

The any bull tag demand looks to be caused by the same people creating a TP and ammo shortage.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

middlefork,

Maybe it was an erroneous tally. I was just going off posts on this website of people saying they were #30,000 and #60,000 and #90,000. I don't have evidence that these people were wrong. What I do know for sure is no tags were available after the 1st day and wait times were long. Demand was up significantly. I think the best way to deal with a TP panic is to limit the purchases customers can make. Same goes with elk tags. I'm pretty opportunity oriented, but I don't see any wisdom in this. We can do better than high opportunity at the cost of a depleted resource and dismal success rates. After year 1, you'll be hunting ghosts.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

Critter said:


> There are a lot of hunters who want it, they want to hunt. Most want all the tags to be over the counter with no limit, they want to be able to hunt the whole state and do away with the LE units. They don't see any need for a cap on spike or any bull tags.


Who? Can't they speak for themselves? Can you name a name? I can't have a productive conversation with "they."

A lot of what you say is disjointed. I'd be okay with a statewide deer hunt. I'd be okay with fewer limited entry hunts or none. Doesn't mean I think general tags shouldn't be limited - especially in a year when demand is spurred by other types of recreation closing down. I think you will have a hard time finding someone who wants unlimited tags in all cases. Hopefully you haven't demonized people with opposing preferences to a point where you are imagining fictional points-of-view. Maybe these people exist. Let's see with more comments.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

I know of a number of them. One of their problems was with the system this last year trying to get into and purchase a any bull tag. They work at jobs where they can not sit at a computer all day or have a phone sitting there just waiting to be able to purchase a tag. 

One had his wife sit on their home computer, she was on it for a couple of hours before the system kicked her off. 

If there were unlimited tags this wouldn't of happened. There are a lot of disgruntled people who tried to get into the system this year to get a tag and didn't. Blame it on the system, covid, or whatever they walked away not being able to go hunting this past year for elk.


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

I totally get that more people wanted a tag AND that the DWR's online purchase system was a joke this year. That being said, unlimited tags are not a sound answer just because people want them. We aren't Wyoming where the animal population outnumbers the human population! 

Up the tags a little, expand the hunt areas a little and make sure there is opportunity to have a decent hunt for some people for a long time vs opportunity for everyone for a short time before the quality of hunt gets really rough.

And I'll say it again, if any resident is this state wanted to hunt elk in 2020, they could have. Pick up a used bow for $200 on ksl, buy a general archery elk tag and go have fun.


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## wyoming2utah (Sep 12, 2007)

Just to make it clear, though, some of our general elk areas are also areas where the overall goal is to reduce elk numbers way down to mitigate problems between private landowners and elk....like the Zion unit and the west Beaver unit. 

The Zion unit, for example, is made up of a lot of private land. Unlimited tags probably isn't going to change the hunting pressure on that unit or the number of elk. The west Beaver unit has very few elk by design--the DWR doesn't want elk out there because of conflicts between elk and farms. Unlimited tags isn't going to change the elk population or even the hunting pressure on that unit really either.

The units that could be affected are places like the Uintas where we are talking about a lot of public land where a lot of hunters could potentially flock...


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

If 15,000 are not enough and unlimited is too many what is everybody's idea of reasonable?

W2U, I would guess most that are not happy with this proposal target the Uinta's but maybe not.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

wyoming2utah said:


> Just to make it clear, though, some of our general elk areas are also areas where the overall goal is to reduce elk numbers way down to mitigate problems between private landowners and elk....like the Zion unit and the west Beaver unit.
> 
> The Zion unit, for example, is made up of a lot of private land. Unlimited tags probably isn't going to change the hunting pressure on that unit or the number of elk. The west Beaver unit has very few elk by design--the DWR doesn't want elk out there because of conflicts between elk and farms. Unlimited tags isn't going to change the elk population or even the hunting pressure on that unit really either.
> 
> The units that could be affected are places like the Uintas where we are talking about a lot of public land where a lot of hunters could potentially flock...


Well if its just affecting the Uintah's (The only place with actual, realistic public access for elk); we've got nothin' to worry about.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

Apply some capitalism. P/L center for Deer/Elk by unit. Determine number of tags per unit based on biology; not public input. Split tags A and B 

A Tags - Dutch auction start 5x cost of current tag. You want it; bid, buy it. 

B Tags - Drawing. 

Oh and one question. Does this unlimited tags idea have limit on number of non-residents who can buy an elk tag?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

I think the whole proposal was to avoid a draw, but what the hell.

An auction? Why not. We haven't come close to maximizing profit to be gained from wild life. Best get SFW involved to get it right.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

OriginalOscar said:


> Oh and one question. Does this unlimited tags idea have limit on number of non-residents who can buy an elk tag?


I don't believe that non residents are a problem in Utah with either any bull or spike tags. There are better states for them to spend their money in for elk tags

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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

middlefork, I actually think this proposal is to take it to a draw. Get everyone angry at the unlimited tags, then limit it back down into a draw. Much easier politically than just going to a draw from where we’ve been. 

But if they get the huge increase that people are talking about potentially happening, they’ll get addicted to the increased revenue as well. So they are taking a chance that it won’t be a huge increase, and I don’t think it will be either.


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

Of course the writing is on the wall as far as going to a draw. It is the solution to all things tag related. They might as well make you pick your unit while they are at it. Rip the band aid off all at once.

Anybody have any numbers on the success rates now we have had multi season tags for awhile? If the success rate has gone up it should indicate that doing away with them should allow a tag increase for individual seasons.


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## Isuckathunting (Sep 15, 2019)

Just curious how many Utah residents you guys think will actually buy a tag if it's unlimited? I tend to think the number will be lower than everyone is expressing here.
During the RAC meetings the DWR have mentioned multiple times that the system inflated numbers like crazy. The best guess they have is that at max there was 100,000 devices or tabs open at the same time. If you're like me, I had some on my phone and like 5 tabs on my computer trying to get through. During the northern RAC they mentioned that the data shows there have been a total of 35,000 unique individuals purchase an any bull tag over the last 5 years. I expected that number to be much higher. 
I left feedback and voted in opposition during the comment period. However, after listening to the biologist and hearing the numbers they would expect to see I'm less worried if it ends up passing. I think it would go up maybe 10k and the elk can handle it from a biological standpoint. As for crowding usually the hunting parties I ran into were 3 to 4 people, 1 tag. I would expect about the same number of people but they all have a tag.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

If they go to a unlimited amount of tags they will find out in a couple of years just how many are purchasing tags and then they can go back to limiting the number of tags. 

It may also be a way for them to see just how many want tags and then weigh the results to the amount of tags that they think need to be sold based on the percentage of successful hunters and then decided one way or another if they want to go to a draw for these tags.


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## provider (Jan 17, 2011)

Isuckathunting said:


> Just curious how many Utah residents you guys think will actually buy a tag if it's unlimited? I tend to think the number will be lower than everyone is expressing here.
> During the RAC meetings the DWR have mentioned multiple times that the system inflated numbers like crazy. The best guess they have is that at max there was 100,000 devices or tabs open at the same time. If you're like me, I had some on my phone and like 5 tabs on my computer trying to get through. During the northern RAC they mentioned that the data shows there have been a total of 35,000 unique individuals purchase an any bull tag over the last 5 years. I expected that number to be much higher.
> I left feedback and voted in opposition during the comment period. However, after listening to the biologist and hearing the numbers they would expect to see I'm less worried if it ends up passing. I think it would go up maybe 10k and the elk can handle it from a biological standpoint. As for crowding usually the hunting parties I ran into were 3 to 4 people, 1 tag. I would expect about the same number of people but they all have a tag.


Unlimited tags will rip off hunters in the north. The herd will be fine, but elk are pressure sensitive. I used to hunt Salt Lake County. They will simply move into Emigration Canyon, Red Butte, City Creek, or private land. Any drainage that allows rifle hunting access will be vacated by all elk the 1st hour if pressure triples. More tags will simply decrease already low success rates. Being in southern Utah, I might actually pick it up again if they opened some good areas, but they will be wiped out after a year or two if tags are not capped. Its not a good idea to open tags wide open with such limited public land. It will corrupt the existing opportunities in the few places there is a viable elk hunt.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

My prediction would be 25,000-30,000 any bull tags sold the first year if it goes unlimited. It will continue to increase year over year probably 5%-ish. Keep in mind the multi season availability has pushed many an archer to buy these tags.

If having 70%-100% more hunters on the landscape doesn't bother you then we are miles apart in what constitutes an enjoyable hunting experience. 

Make the entire any bull rifle hunt into a HAMS hunt and I might agree with unlimited tags. That would at least be self limiting but it won't happen. Bubba just bought a brand spankin new 6.5mm something whizbag and wants to shoot some sh!t with it! 

Utahn's get married, pop out 5 kids and their kids do the same, and then we complain about hunts going to draws--We haven't increase deer and elk numbers by that amount. Now we're just gonna throw in the towel and fill the forests plum full with orange. Judas Frickin Priest, sometimes I feel like I am taking crazy pills.

Niller-->do you really think the DWR is that scheming and machiavellian smart to propose this unlimited nonsense just to get support for the hunt going to a draw? I'm a fan of a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy but I just don't see them thinking past their next new work truck let alone this! :grin:

Bottom of the page, ladies!


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## Isuckathunting (Sep 15, 2019)

Airborne said:


> My prediction would be 25,000-30,000 any bull tags sold the first year if it goes unlimited.
> 
> If having 70%-100% more hunters on the landscape doesn't bother you then we are miles apart in what constitutes an enjoyable hunting experience.
> 
> Make the entire any bull rifle hunt into a HAMS hunt and I might agree with unlimited.


I agree with your prediction. 
It's not that I like the idea of having that many hunters in the field but I would rather have that than go into a draw I think. Like I said I think it'll be a lot more tags not necessarily a lot more hunters.
Maybe they could limit to like 1000 multiseason tags into a draw and leave the other stuff OTC? Moving to HAMS like you said would be awesome but that would make lots of people angry. I don't know. It's a really tough subject, seems like no matter what someone will be mad.
I don't like the idea of limiting tags to a draw but I also don't like the idea of having a ton more people in the field. 
Maybe they should just leave it as is and deal with people losing their **** if they don't get a tag. I'm fine with that.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

Airborne said:


> Niller-->do you really think the DWR is that scheming and machiavellian smart to propose this unlimited nonsense just to get support for the hunt going to a draw? I'm a fan of a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy but I just don't see them thinking past their next new work truck let along this! :grin:


Keep in mind that the DWR is not necessarily the ones that have to be the scheming, machiavellian smart people to think up of how to get from point A to Z in all this. And yes, I think there are people that are absolutely scheming to screw over many, many people in an attempt to get exactly what they want. Just look at what happened on the Boulder with the Barney Top in this very proposal that all anyone wants to talk about is the unlimited elk tags.

Want another thought? Okay, the unlimited elk tags idea was proposed at this same time SPECIFICALLY to get people talking about it and not the fact that they've eliminated rifle hunting entirely on a a portion of one the premium elk units in the world. Not to mention this is exactly what a specific "conservation" organization asked for a couple years ago so we could grow and then sell more 400+ inch bulls to hunt.

Yes, I absolutely think people are scheming on this one. In fact, I have very little doubt there is a whole lot of scheming involved on this one.


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

Getting rid of the multi season tags would help a ton. The division said about 3,000 archers converted to the multi season tags when they were made available. 

I'd prefer it go back to the "pick your season", as that would reduce demand for some tags.

Also, why not split out the muzzy and rifle tags into their own pools vs having them all come out of the same pot?


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## middlefork (Nov 2, 2008)

copple2 said:


> Getting rid of the multi season tags would help a ton. The division said about 3,000 archers converted to the multi season tags when they were made available.
> 
> I'd prefer it go back to the "pick your season", as that would reduce demand for some tags.
> 
> Also, why not split out the muzzy and rifle tags into their own pools vs having them all come out of the same pot?


So how many of those archers were successful on those multi season tags? Another 3000 people spread over all the units is a drop in the bucket.

And I'm not sure how picking your season reduces the demand for some tags.

All the tags come out of the same pot. X amount of tags equals X amount of elk killed. Archery has been shown to be a non issue. Muzzy and rifle are killing X amount of elk. Prove that muzzy and rifle have different success rates and then you can lobby for separate tags.

In the end it it is about how much harvest can be sustained and how people view the experience. Most arguments I have seen so far are hunter based, not herd based.


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## copple2 (Jan 23, 2008)

My comment about the 3000 archers is that the demand for the tags would be decreased if the multi season tags were not available. No comments on success or effect in the herds.

That being said, success rates are already super low, mainly due to lower elk densities. 10% is what was shared by the DWR. Add in more pressure and the success rates probably get lower (on average) and people like the hunt less.


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## Lone_Hunter (Oct 25, 2017)

Words fail me. Unlimited any bull tags? Suuure, lets overpressure everything, and push elk to be on the endangered list, Why the hell not?! Some dip**** at DWR obviously had a visit from the good idea fairy. F'ing retards.


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## backcountry (May 19, 2016)

Vanilla said:


> Airborne said:
> 
> 
> > Niller-->do you really think the DWR is that scheming and machiavellian smart to propose this unlimited nonsense just to get support for the hunt going to a draw? I'm a fan of a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy but I just don't see them thinking past their next new work truck let along this!
> ...


That entire setup seems like a special interest wet dream come true. I know a few current and former DWR biologist who are are all upstanding workers but there is undoubtedly wiggle room for outside influence to have long term schemes pan out. While I normally fall back on a variant of Hanlons Razor when it comes to errors in government management there is a clear exception when monied interests get involved.

I've been so busy with home life that I lost track of this issue. I need to downloaded some documents to read on my trip.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

I’m not worried about the DWR biologists. I think most, if not almost all truly are motivated simply by what is best for the resource. But they aren’t the ones making the policy. When it comes to the Wildlife Board, I don’t have the same trust.


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## Chebato1950 (May 17, 2017)

you would thing that with all the information at there finger tips. the division would know that it just doesn't work when you try and make a limited entry unit and move it back to a general season unit. they deny it but i really do believe that cry saying its to provide opportunity also has a monetary (creed) purpose hiding in the backround. in almost all units i have witnessed this happen they wind up closing the unit due to over harvest. i wished that the whole proposal would be shelved till the currant elk managment plan expires. that is going to be 2 years and than do a proper study to currant issues. this whole plan seems it was done without a well thought out objective other man we do this and we will make a ton of money to play with. again just one ole timers thoughts.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Chebato1950 said:


> in almost all units i have witnessed this happen they wind up closing the unit due to over harvest.


Care to be specific? I'm not sure I can recall where a LE unit went to GS any bull but then had to be shut down.

But I can think of a some areas that were GS any bull that were shut down for a bit and then reopened as LE.


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## Chebato1950 (May 17, 2017)

sorry for the delay johnny it wasnt a elk unit it was the vernon deer unit and it s been better than 20 years but i can rember it very well as that was the year that my son went into the marines.


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## weaversamuel76 (Feb 16, 2017)

Chebato1950 said:


> sorry for the delay johnny it wasnt a elk unit it was the vernon deer unit and it s been better than 20 years but i can rember it very well as that was the year that my son went into the marines.


Vernon went to limited entry due to fire destroying majority of habitat not over harvest deer.
How many tags you've drawn on it in those twenty years?

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## Chebato1950 (May 17, 2017)

i respect your opion but the facts are i have been on the vernon unit since 1966 when i first started hunt both the general and the limited entry hunts not only for deer but every since they started hunting elk on the unit our familly has hunted elk successfully as well. as far as fires they happen about every year on some part of the unit. and while you have the right to you opion on that i disagree totally. as far as how many tags beside what we have drawn as a family we have help alot of hunters in there efforts to harvest deer, elk and cougars. no were not guides just very avid hunters who like to hunt in country we were born and raised into. wanna let me know how well you know the unit sir.


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## shaner (Nov 30, 2007)

Vernon went in the toilet due to over harvest... by POACHERS.


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

What does all this vernon deer talk have anything to do with the general any bull going unlimited?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

ridgetop said:


> What does all this vernon deer talk have anything to do with the general any bull going unlimited?


It took a left turn a number of post ago


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

ridgetop said:


> What does all this vernon deer talk have anything to do with the general any bull going unlimited?


over-harvesting elk in areas where elk are not desired, or there are currently very few elk anyway.

:noidea:

^^ that's my favorite emoji.


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## Rmanwill (Mar 5, 2021)

Good for youth and not out of quota. 2500 extra is not going to hurt the hunting experience in my opinion


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## FeartheTurtle (Mar 8, 2021)

If they do this and still allow unlimited control cow tags it could get uglier than it already is in the Uintas.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

FeartheTurtle said:


> If they do this and still allow unlimited control cow tags it could get uglier than it already is in the Uintas.


Welcome to the party, pal!

It's obvious you're living under a rock or you're way late to the conversation. Probably both.


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## OriginalOscar (Sep 5, 2016)

MooseMeat said:


> Welcome to the party, pal!
> 
> It's obvious you're living under a rock or you're way late to the conversation. Probably both.


Posted at 2:13am. Get some sleep so you can be kind! Less social media and maybe more real would be good.


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## MooseMeat (Dec 27, 2017)

OriginalOscar said:


> Posted at 2:13am. Get some sleep so you can be kind! Less social media and maybe more real would be good.


Some people have jobs that require them to work after the sun goes down. Those people get lunch breaks too


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