# Wolves! another thread.



## kingfish (Sep 10, 2007)

i was wondering on your all comments about this. the FWS has just delisted the gray wolf. accourding to their 200 page report there are breeding populations in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. also they said that their is a population in northern central utah (i would imagine this to be cache and rich counties for now).

i am saddened by this...here is to the decline of a healthy and abundant elk herd...

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/spe ... 08_OFR.pdf

see page 2


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Does Utah have a management plan?


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## kingfish (Sep 10, 2007)

yes the state has a management plan.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/wolf/

how well it will actually work is what i am concerned with. an interesting thread i seen on another forum page brings some real issues up.

http://www.saveourelk.com

this site is very anti-wolf. but i feel i am mostly with them on the efforts. Idaho and wyoming appear to have some real problems!


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Loke said:


> Does Utah have a management plan?


A V-Max bullet would be a good start to a management plan.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

I love the Vmax and have shot thousands of them but the Vmax may give splash, may want to go with a soft point or the Amax.IMHO :lol: :lol:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Al Hansen said:


> I love the Vmax and have shot thousands of them but the Vmax may give splash, may want to go with a soft point or the Amax.IMHO :lol: :lol:


If first you do not suceed, try a bigger bullet or calbier.  I just got a new AR-15 flattop and would love to try it on some deserving vermin.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

And which Flat top did you get ? I had the desire once to go to the dark side and ended up with a H-bar Colt. Since then they have come out with some pretty amazing AR's that shoot as good if not better than the bolt guns.


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## neckcollar (Dec 30, 2007)

I dont know how much of this is true, but I was told that idaho might sell over the counter tags for wolf. I think that they vote on it feb 29th :evil:


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

The initial price will be 26.50 a tag, i have listen to idaho fish and game talk about wolves, and the bottom line is they want them gone. Now they will not say this to the general public, hint at it, but not say it. Utah is only a few short years away from seeing the LEs take a major hit. The elk become much more evasive and stop bugling all together, outfitters in MT, ID, WY are really starting to see the effect. some of the stories are downright alarming. The reintrodution of the wolf was not as thought out as the federal government led us to believe. Inconceiveable!! :evil:


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

:roll:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Al Hansen said:


> And which Flat top did you get ? I had the desire once to go to the dark side and ended up with a H-bar Colt. Since then they have come out with some pretty amazing AR's that shoot as good if not better than the bolt guns.


I got a Armalite M15A4, it's got the 20" barrel. I mounted a Burris 3x9x40 Ballsitic plex scope on it. It has a good trigger pull, I picked this particle gun after trying out several different flat tops' trigger pulls' in the store. It shoots surprising well for not being a match grade gun. It averaged around 1/2 sized groups with cheap the Wolf ammo I had laying around the house (55 grain HP & they were feeding flawlessly). I tryed out the Win. PP 64 gr they stayed around nickel sized, but the cream of the crop that I tried were my old stand-bys Federal Preium 55 gr Sierra BTHP, a couple of 5 shot group had all the holes touching or overlaped. I will use it for pratice and coytoe hunting, but I don't think I'll sell my bolt gun any time soon either.

I want to test it out to 400 and see what it can do when I get the chance.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

Loke said:


> Does Utah have a management plan?


"click, click, BOOM!"

That's my wolf management plan. :twisted:

*SSS*


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

neckcollar said:


> I dont know how much of this is true, but I was told that idaho might sell over the counter tags for wolf. I think that they vote on it feb 29th :evil:


If they do I'll be the first one in line. Just talked to my buddy in northern Idaho where I turkey hunt on the phone the other day. He said he sees wolves EVERY DAY on his way into work. He NEVER sees elk anymore... :twisted: Go figure...


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> Al Hansen said:
> 
> 
> > And which Flat top did you get ? I had the desire once to go to the dark side and ended up with a H-bar Colt. Since then they have come out with some pretty amazing AR's that shoot as good if not better than the bolt guns.
> ...


I have an identical M15A4. I have a 3-12 Sightron on it and it is deadly on prairie dogs on the far side of 400 yards. a good breeze makes it tough, but you can spot your own shots with it.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Loke said:


> Mojo1 said:
> 
> 
> > Al Hansen said:
> ...


What load does yours like?


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## Loke (Sep 7, 2007)

Right now I have a bunch of Barnes 50 gr. VLCs loaded with H335. It also shot Coyote remanufactured loads well under an inch when I first got it. I haven't shot for groups in quite a while. But it shoots well enough to splatter p-dogs as far as I can shoot.


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

I think a wolf deserves at least a 6mm. A good 25-06 would be just the ticket. Years ago I attended a symposium on the wolf reintroduction when the idea was first being promoted. I recall there being certain "sales pitch" that the wolves would never leave Yellowstone N.P. due to their "shy" nature about humans. They were supposed to just fit right into an ecosystem that hasn't seen a wolf in nearly a century, and all would settle in peacefully, while the well meaning wolf advocates could get back to singing kumbaya. Well, it has been a few years and a few more wolf packs roaming the western states outside of Yellowstone since then. I think they guessed wrong, to put it lightly. 

Click, click, BOOM!

p.s. I am a big fan of SPEER, put an 80 grain hot-cor just behind the shoulder; that wolf won't go far. :wink:


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## jhunter (Dec 14, 2007)

_O\ k I am in lets go!


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

Just once it would be nice to see a wolf thread with accurate information, (as in being "informed").

http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_8334707

The latest edition of _Bugle_ has an interesting comment in an excellent article, "Ben & Jerry's for Elk" by Christine Paige: "Elk can eliminate all young shoots of aspen and willows, leaving only aging stands unable to sustain regeneration. Recently, biologists working in Yellowstone's northern range have observed that willows and some aspen, long suppressed under high elk populations, are beginning to thrive again. The introduction of wolves to the park in 1995 not only reduced the northern elk population, but biologists think they changed elk behavior - moving them away from some favored winter feeding spots into areas with greater security. As a result, willow and aspen have been "released", growing again from heavily browsed little nubbins. This in turn appears to be benefiting other wildlife...The landscape is regaining some of its lost biodiversity and elk, too, may ultimately benefit as browse increases."


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> Just once it would be nice to see a wolf thread with accurate information, (as in being "informed").
> 
> http://www.sltrib.com/outdoors/ci_8334707
> 
> The latest edition of Bugle has an interesting comment in an excellent article, "Ben & Jerry's for Elk" by Christine Paige: "Elk can eliminate all young shoots of aspen and willows, leaving only aging stands unable to sustain regeneration. Recently, biologists working in Yellowstone's northern range have observed that willows and some aspen, long suppressed under high elk populations, are beginning to thrive again. The introduction of wolves to the park in 1995 not only reduced the northern elk population, but biologists think they changed elk behavior - moving them away from some favored winter feeding spots into areas with greater security. As a result, willow and aspen have been "released", growing again from heavily browsed little nubbins. This in turn appears to be benefiting other wildlife...The landscape is regaining some of its lost biodiversity and elk, too, may ultimately benefit as browse increases."


The elk numbers would never have been that high with proper elk management. The wolves may have helped, but wolves cause more damage than they do good things for the elk herds.

I wish Finnegan would post the affects that wolves are having now on the elk herds.


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

THIS IS WHAT FINNEGANS BUGLE MAGAZINE FAILED TO ADDRESS.

New Report Examines the Effects of Wolves on Elk

CHEYENNE, March 23-A new report released today by the Wyoming Game and Fish Department takes a detailed look at the effects that wolves are having on elk populations in northwestern Wyoming. In the report, department biologists analyzed statewide elk population data from 1980 through 2005.

Wolf reintroduction began in 1995, when the federal government released 14 wolves in Yellowstone National Park. Wolf populations reached recovery goals established by the US Fish and Wildlife Service in 2002 and continue to grow. At the end of 2006, there were an estimated 36 packs in Wyoming, including 311 individual wolves.

To determine the impacts wolves are having on elk, biologists looked at trends in calf:cow ratios over a 26-year period, both in areas where wolf populations have been established and in areas where wolves are not present. Of the 21 elk herds included in the analysis, eight are currently occupied by wolves.

"We have seen a downward trend in many of Wyoming's elk herds over this 26-year period," said Wyoming Game and Fish Department Wildlife Chief Jay Lawson. "That trend is likely due to long-term drought and other habitat related factors. But in half of the herds occupied by wolves, we saw a significantly greater rate of decline after wolves were established compared to herds without wolves. We can't attribute that increased rate of decline to any factor other than wolves."

*Biologists feel an elk herd's population can be maintained at objective and provide some hunter harvest when the ratio of calves to cows is around 25 to 100. Once ratios fall below 20:100 there is very little opportunity for hunting. Four elk herds in Wyoming with wolves present have dropped below 25 calves per 100 cows, and two of those herds are below 20 calves per 100 cows. All four herds had declining ratios before wolves were present, but the rate of decline increased significantly after wolves were established. Currently, the only elk herds in the state with recruitment rates that will not support hunting, or possibly even stable populations, are those with significant wolf predation.*

"There are a lot of different factors affecting wildlife throughout the state, and wolves are a relatively recent addition to the challenges facing our elk," said Lawson. We're very concerned about the effects of wolves on the state's elk and reduced hunting opportunities for the public. This report helps us understand how wolves are contributing to changes in our elk herds. *We also hope this data will provide us tools to work with federal agencies in charge of wolf management to minimize the effects of wolves on elk and elk hunting opportunities."*


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

I hope the DWR realizes, Wolves might cause their department to be de-funded. If the wolves are eating most of the elk I know I won't be buying any licenses.


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## Red-Grouse (Sep 22, 2007)

You -all fail to see the up-shot of this thread..............In Idaho and Wyoming where they have had serious problems with Elk is because the Wolves were federaly listed and the state had little to no say in wolf management............This ruling that de-lists the wolf is significant because now sates can manage them as they (we the people) see fit...........................We never had a choice as to whether wolves will be back in Utah so get used to it! But now the STATES (Utah, Wyoming, Montana etc.) have a choice in how they will manage them!

IS YOUR GLASS HALF FULL OR HALF EMPTY??


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

> IS YOUR GLASS HALF FULL OR HALF EMPTY??


My glass is empty because I got thirsty sooo opps :lol: I better go fill up my glass again.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Thack said:


> You -all fail to see the up-shot of this thread..............In Idaho and Wyoming where they have had serious problems with Elk is because the Wolves were federaly listed and the state had little to no say in wolf management............This ruling that de-lists the wolf is significant because now sates can manage them as they (we the people) see fit...........................We never had a choice as to whether wolves will be back in Utah so get used to it! But now the STATES (Utah, Wyoming, Montana etc.) have a choice in how they will manage them!
> 
> IS YOUR GLASS HALF FULL OR HALF EMPTY??


You fail to see that management of the wolves will be so fowled up by politics that their numbers will NEVER be controlled in such a way as to help reduce the problems their re-introduction caused in the first place.

The best management policy out there for Utah's elk, moose, and deer herds, not to mention the state's ranching industry is SHOOT ON SIGHT.


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## duck jerky (Sep 8, 2007)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> Loke said:
> 
> 
> > Does Utah have a management plan?
> ...


ditto :!:


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## Red-Grouse (Sep 22, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> Thack said:
> 
> 
> > You -all fail to see the up-shot of this thread..............In Idaho and Wyoming where they have had serious problems with Elk is because the Wolves were federaly listed and the state had little to no say in wolf management............This ruling that de-lists the wolf is significant because now sates can manage them as they (we the people) see fit...........................We never had a choice as to whether wolves will be back in Utah so get used to it! But now the STATES (Utah, Wyoming, Montana etc.) have a choice in how they will manage them!
> ...


Small reality check :roll:

Let me state this again *"WE WILL HAVE WOLVES WHETHER WE WANT THEM OR NOT"*
This is like Pandora's box.............Once the feds reintroduced them it was inevitable that they would repopulate some areas of their former range........Remember we didn't ask for that and it didn't matter that we may have even protested it.......So here in the real world I will continue to applaud the DWR for having the forsight to write a management plan to deal with wolves and applaud the delisting of Wolves so the state can manage them!


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Small reality check for the wolf lovers' who don't think thru the actions they push onto the majority.


What's reintroduced now can be killed off again! :idea:


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## Treehugnhuntr (Sep 7, 2007)

*\-\* _/O :roll:


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## coyoteslayer (Sep 10, 2007)

All I know is I can't wait to shoot one and have him full body mounted. I hope I can shoot straight so that I don't shoot any in the guts and they get away. I will have to practice a lot before I go.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

coyoteslayer said:


> All I know is I can't wait to shoot one and have him full body mounted. I hope I can shoot straight so that I don't shoot any in the guts and they get away. I will have to practice a lot before I go.


 :mrgreen:


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## soules2007 (Oct 29, 2007)

The wolves have been delisted right??? Idaho estimates appox 800 to 850 wolves. If 2000 tags were issued they would end up with 650 to 700 wolves. Of course this is a guess, but the warden who said it is quite reliable and he gets info from some pretty good biologist, but the only way to really wipe them out is to drop poisioned smelly meat. that has been done from helios in BC ,now you are talking about a major expense, the feds will not fund their own mistake. This will get much worse before it gets better. :evil:


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

It ain't hard to kill them if everyone out in the woods shot them on sight. **** if they were in the South, drunk ******* posse's would have eradicate them by now. :mrgreen:


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## Levy (Oct 2, 2007)

> It ain't hard to kill them if everyone out in the woods shot them on sight. **** if they were in the South, drunk ******* posse's would have eradicate them by now.


Yeah, apparently in the North the sober ******** just type idle threats and half truths with horrible grammar.


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## Mojo1 (Sep 8, 2007)

Levy said:


> > It ain't hard to kill them if everyone out in the woods shot them on sight. **** if they were in the South, drunk ******* posse's would have eradicate them by now.
> 
> 
> Yeah, apparently in the North the sober ******** just type idle threats and half truths with horrible grammar.


Thanks for the compliment, but I'm no northern *******, born and breed in the south. We don't make idle threats down there, can't wait to see one to add to my collection. But no worries we'll still have plenty of deer for guys to come down and hunt when the wolves have eaten thru your deer herds.

[attachment=0:qu8anr3v]iawc-logo.jpg[/attachment:qu8anr3v]


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## Red-Grouse (Sep 22, 2007)

Mojo1 said:


> Small reality check for the wolf lovers' who don't think thru the actions they push onto the majority.
> 
> What's reintroduced now can be killed off again! :idea:


Your intelligence and tact are amazing.................. :roll:


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## Levy (Oct 2, 2007)

> Thanks for the compliment, but I'm no northern *******, born and breed in the south. We don't make idle threats down there, can't wait to see one to add to my collection. But no worries we'll still have plenty of deer for guys to come down and hunt when the wolves have eaten thru your deer herds.


Once again you prove my point.


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