# DWR antlers, sheds and hides auction tomorrow



## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

http://tntauction.com/content/?page=GUN


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

More info http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2031579 ... featured-3


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## humpyflyguy (Sep 10, 2007)

Okay, so they are auctioning off the racks and hides, which is good and I am sure the money goes to good use. But what or when do they auction off the guns?


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Crazy to see how much the division can accumulate from those that were caught! Can you imagine how many are never caught?! It would be amazing to see what a difference catching more poachers would make


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

There needs to be harsher penalties for these scumbags


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

So, the division IS IN FACT, able to pull of an auction. Hmmmmmm.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

What really struck a chord with me was when the CO said there are RINGS of poachers. This puts my mind to a bunch of guys shooting everything they see and then sorting through to get the spoils. As much as I would love stiffer penalties for these ass holes.... I know it will not happen as long as we are putting tax payer money into social programs. Sad reality!


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

I see the poaching rings as something much different MadHunter. "shoot everything" kills business. (pun intended). My old high school football coach was in a poaching ring. He did all kinds of habitat improvements in the off season, and also worked very hard - especially for bighorn sheep. Why? Because he could get $30K for a sheep hunt. And that was back in the 80s. He "guaranteed" shots a full curl rams. So if he did do a shoot 'em up sort of thing, then there were no rams for other clients for that year, as well as coming years. Kind of funny how it worked. Anyway, it took an investigation of several years before he got busted. He ended up guiding an undercover agent on a sheep/goat/elk hunt where he not only allowed but encouraged the "hunter" to take several sheep and goats. He got nailed to the wall when it was all done. Lost everything and ended up in the slam for about 5 years.


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

I can see where there might be several kinds of rings i guess. I just had this image from the last big group that got busted out in the Vernal unit. They had a bunch of deer that they had mounted and kept for themselves as well as a bunch of antler from smaller bucks. your coach had a business going on. Those guys apeared to just be put'n racks on the wall. I still say nail them all to the wall and don't let them off.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

The state selling these Big Game animal parts contributes to a continuing market for them. The DWR should not profit from the results of poaching.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

Cooky said:


> The state selling these Big Game animal parts contributes to a continuing market for them. The DWR should not profit from the results of poaching.


$600 for a bobcat hide? Forget the $50 coyote bounty!


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

Cooky said:


> The state selling these Big Game animal parts contributes to a continuing market for them. The DWR should not profit from the results of poaching.


 I disagree. this is akin to saying the FBI, DEA, sheriff's office and other agencies of the type cannot sell all the confiscated cars, houses, and valuable property they seize. I think they will procure a good amount of very needed funding to keep fighting poachers.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

MadHunter said:


> Cooky said:
> 
> 
> > The state selling these Big Game animal parts contributes to a continuing market for them. The DWR should not profit from the results of poaching.
> ...


I agree to a point, take their guns, trucks, campers and whatever else was used in the commission of the crime and sell it. But, the antlers, hides and other parts that contribute to illegal trade should be treated the same way as all the dope that gets confiscated.


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## klbzdad (Apr 3, 2012)

MadHunter said:


> Cooky said:
> 
> 
> > The state selling these Big Game animal parts contributes to a continuing market for them. The DWR should not profit from the results of poaching.
> ...


+1

Might as well let the bad guys fund the fight against themselves. Although Cooky does have a good point about the equipment vs the product. I too would like to know when they are going to auction of the archery equipment and firearms. Another quad this year wouldn't be bad either.


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## guner (Sep 25, 2007)

I think they might be saving the gear auction for the next time we need a new road built in Utah county  which seems to be every month :!: :O•-:


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## ktowner222 (May 9, 2012)

it truly is sad to see just how many animals are taken illegally. im sure this is just a fraction of the total amount as well. i guess my question is who would really want to buy this stuff? do you get it cheap so you can resale and make a few bucks? i certainly dont want a deer or elk hangin on my wall that i didnt shoot. other than trying to make money off the bobcat hides i dont get it.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

ktowner222 said:


> it truly is sad to see just how many animals are taken illegally. im sure this is just a fraction of the total amount as well. i guess my question is who would really want to buy this stuff? do you get it cheap so you can resale and make a few bucks? i certainly dont want a deer or elk hangin on my wall that i didnt shoot. other than trying to make money off the bobcat hides i dont get it.


Welcome to the forum Ktowner! 
My neighbor works for TNT, I will ask him what the prices were. I wondered the same about hanging one of those, but if you don't have your own and in a second home maybe that would work.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

They ran an article on the news about this, said most of the antlers shown were from recovered road kills.


-DallanC


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## MKP (Mar 7, 2010)

DallanC said:


> They ran an article on the news about this, said most of the antlers shown were from recovered road kills.
> 
> -DallanC


Yeah, that's kind of what I heard on the news. 50% poached/50% road kill and predator kills.


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## Oblivion5888 (Sep 12, 2011)

Dallan, you are right, a lot of those came from causes other than poaching. Roadkill, nuisance, and injuries are a few examples. 

I actually made it down there to the auction today and found it quite funny that a lot of the people who got caught poaching were there trying to buy back their antlers or hides. You could see guys walking around with pictures on their phones comparing it to the antler piles lol.


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I bet they sold over 200,000 dollars in antlers today. Most elk racks went for 300-600 bucks. There were around 500 piles of crap for sale and each pile went crazy high. Bobcats 900 bucks. Big horn sheep for 1800. Bucks as high as 1700. There were about five buyers that ran everyone else up and worked with each other meaning they wouldn't bid each other up. This allowed them to pretty much buy everything. 

All i got was a sun burn. No way is a 250 bull worth 300+


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## swbuckmaster (Sep 14, 2007)

I also saw guys who got caught poaching buying there horns back.

Another thing got me thinking. If i would have spent 600-1000 bucks at the auction i would have been money ahead and would have both sides or matches. Just not as fun for me to do it that way


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

Cooky said:


> The state selling these Big Game animal parts contributes to a continuing market for them. The DWR should not profit from the results of poaching.


Cooky, I'm not quite understanding your point, I would love to hear why it furthers poaching. As far I can understand, it would seem like it wouldn't effect it one way or another. It's not like the DWR pays the poachers for the items, why would the resale of said items encourage illegal kills? Or were you saying that it just creates a bigger antler and hide Market?


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

ktowner222 said:


> it truly is sad to see just how many animals are taken illegally. im sure this is just a fraction of the total amount as well. i guess my question is who would really want to buy this stuff? do you get it cheap so you can resale and make a few bucks? i certainly dont want a deer or elk hangin on my wall that i didnt shoot. other than trying to make money off the bobcat hides i dont get it.


There's a big market for horns and antlers other than mounts. You have knife and BBQ tool handles, chandeliers, outdoor furniture, coat racks, lamps, buttons and my favorite, oriental medical and love potions.


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

elkfromabove said:


> ktowner222 said:
> 
> 
> > it truly is sad to see just how many animals are taken illegally. im sure this is just a fraction of the total amount as well. i guess my question is who would really want to buy this stuff? do you get it cheap so you can resale and make a few bucks? i certainly dont want a deer or elk hangin on my wall that i didnt shoot. other than trying to make money off the bobcat hides i dont get it.
> ...


I'm quite certain that the "oriental and love potions" are only made when the antlers are soft and in velvet. They cut them off when they are soft, then freeze them. Then sell 'em to China!


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

Unfortunately the allowed sale of antlers is what constitutes a lot of the poaching to begin with. 

After seeing how prevalent poaching is, I wonder how many people are not caught? What are the odds? 1 in 10, 1- in 50, 1- 100, or higher?


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## ktowner222 (May 9, 2012)

thanks huge29! i guess there is a lot of different uses for those animals other than just hanging them on the wall. at those prices though? no doubt about it, if people are willing to pay that kinda money for animals like that, then i believe (especially in this economy) there is always gonna be people willing to take the risk to supply the demand. i agree its time to start truly punishing the people who get caught. as long as its a slap on the wrist nothing will change. if they would just make an example out of a few with some serious jail time and big time fines, i think poachers would seriously think twice about pulling the trigger.


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## COOPERD (Sep 16, 2007)

I fugured the prices would be scary high. Glad you confirmed it.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Last Man Standing said:


> Cooky said:
> 
> 
> > The state selling these Big Game animal parts contributes to a continuing market for them. The DWR should not profit from the results of poaching.
> ...


I think it helps to promote the sale of these kind of items by satisfying a demand, which results in furthering the demand. Any time there is a demand for anything a supply will result. If you can't buy the trophy elk rack you wanted at the DWR auction there is a way to get one. Perhaps if the supply dried up the demand would also.



Last Man Standing said:


> Cooky said:
> 
> 
> > Or were you saying that it just creates a bigger antler and hide Market?


That too. Think elephant ivory and a global economy.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

> The state selling these Big Game animal parts contributes to a continuing market for them. The DWR should not profit from the results of poaching.





> I think it helps to promote the sale of these kind of items by satisfying a demand, which results in furthering the demand. Any time there is a demand for anything a supply will result. If you can't buy the trophy elk rack you wanted at the DWR auction there is a way to get one. Perhaps if the supply dried up the demand would also.
> 
> Last Man Standing wrote:
> Cooky wrote:
> ...


Ok, as an econ major I am going to point out a very common mistake that is made by non-economists. What you are saying is an increase in supply will result in an increase in demand, right? Well, you have to break up this problem in two separate categories. The first is the legal supply and the second is the black market supply. In the legal supply, there is a free market on shed antlers, and in utah, essentially a monopoly on dead-heads run by the DWR. What will happen when the DWR sells a large amount of these goods is that the market supply(both legal and illegal) has been greatly increased. This leads to a watering down of prices. Ok, so prior to the sale say a poacher could earn $2k for a 350" elk head, post sale he can only get say $1500, as the overall market has been inundated with a greater supply. This actually gives the poacher LESS motivation to poach, as he cannot get as much money now as before. Do you get it? The problem people make is assuming that the demand is increased by selling more, not really, the demand is now legalized and the supply is increased cutting the overall prices(think a walmart approach to squeezing out local businesses), the decrease in prices has a negative effect on the motivation of the poacher to poach, turning the marginal poacher away from poaching and onto some other trade, hopefully a legal one.
stepping off my soapbox.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

johnnycake said:


> Ok, as an econ major I am going to point out a very common mistake that is made by non-economists. What you are saying is an increase in supply will result in an increase in demand, right? Well, you have to break up this problem in two separate categories. The first is the legal supply and the second is the black market supply. In the legal supply, there is a free market on shed antlers, and in utah, essentially a monopoly on dead-heads run by the DWR. What will happen when the DWR sells a large amount of these goods is that the market supply(both legal and illegal) has been greatly increased. This leads to a watering down of prices. Ok, so prior to the sale say a poacher could earn $2k for a 350" elk head, post sale he can only get say $1500, as the overall market has been inundated with a greater supply. This actually gives the poacher LESS motivation to poach, as he cannot get as much money now as before. Do you get it? The problem people make is assuming that the demand is increased by selling more, not really, the demand is now legalized and the supply is increased cutting the overall prices(think a walmart approach to squeezing out local businesses), the decrease in prices has a negative effect on the motivation of the poacher to poach, turning the marginal poacher away from poaching and onto some other trade, hopefully a legal one.
> stepping off my soapbox.


Excellent information. Now I want to pick your brain a little if I may. Can just having the product available create a demand? Nobody wanted a smart phone, bottled water or hula hoop until they saw it. With a marketplace that is now world wide can we create market for our natural resources that has never existed? Or replace one that existed but has been depleted? Sambar Stag pistol grips are pretty hard to come by nowadays.


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## pkred (Jul 9, 2009)

I say good the DWR for finding a win win, with a commodity that otherwise would be wasted or sold in bulk privately. 

The only other thing that would make scene to me. Would be to let the poor sap who hit the deer keep it, take it home and butcher what meat he could. And if there happened to be antlers. Well, maybe paying the Auto insurance deductible would not sting as bad.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

> Excellent information. Now I want to pick your brain a little if I may. Can just having the product available create a demand? Nobody wanted a smart phone, bottled water or hula hoop until they saw it. With a marketplace that is now world wide can we create market for our natural resources that has never existed? Or replace one that existed but has been depleted? Sambar Stag pistol grips are pretty hard to come by nowadays.


The problem with your smart phone example is it merely combined several existing markets, the basic market being that of communication. Markets are modified all the time, our current market for smartphones is simply a highly evolved market for effective communication(aka it used to be grunting and pointing--free, but none too effective). Markets that get depleted are nearly always replaced with another resource a substitute. The bottled water is just a form of quality control of a resource that has been consumed (therefore having a market) since the dawn of time, only now instead of killing those that come to consume our resource without some form of trade payment we choose to pay the water bottle companies or the water company or taxes depending on your preferences. As far as natural resources go, we are still in the same market(we still need food, water, heat, shelter, etc) we are just finding more viable substitutes to add to the market. The truth of the matter from an economic perspective is best highlighted by the case of elephant ivory. The ivory trade was extremely healthy and vibrant, until post colonization of Africa. With the shift in political philosophies, hunting became banned as did commercial harvest of ivory. This led to a decrease in the supply of ivory, without a decrease in demand. Result: increase in prices. With ivory now being worth more than at any other time, poaching went through the roof without sound conservation practices. Once there is a set value on the commodity that is regulated and allowed, the perpetuity of it is assured. Case in point with the african elephant is found in the countries that have reopened for elephant hunting. the value of the animals is now thousands of dollars to the local community, often being broken down on a scale based on the size of the ivory---a price that is set by the black market price for ivory. This leads to a legal market for elephants--granted, one where the ivory is for personal use and not able to be sold--but the equitable prices are what allow anti poaching efforts to succeed. Prior poachers now are employed as trackers and are motivated to protect the future of the elephants. Results: countries with legal sport hunting of elephants have recovering elephant populations with lower poaching rates than those that do not. Every time an African government burns a shipment of illegally poached ivory, they are decreasing the supply, increasing the price to meet the demand, and consequently giving poachers more motivation to poach. 
This is why the DWR is doing the right thing with the auction.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Well thought out and expressed. Thank you.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Thanks for the civility! I was kind of afraid to jump in on this one knowing how things on these types of forums can snowball, but I enjoyed the discussion.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Excellant.


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