# New CVA Accura MR-x is coming to town



## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

So Santa is bringing me a CVA Accura MR-X this year. Have a couple bottles of BH209, bought my scope rings and looking forward to mounting my older Burris Signature Select scope on her. 

My other rifle, a Knight Wolverine 209, is easy to shoot with the 777 FFg and almost any 275-300 grain sabot. Been very good and reliable with 100 grains (volume) of 777 and a Barnes 285 Spitfire. Been killing deer with it since before I could use a magnifying scope. 

Anyway, in hopes that one or two of my kids will come hunt the ML deer hunt with me, I decided I needed one more rifle so that they could hunt too. 

What loads have you all liked with the CVA Accura? Mine is a .50 caliber, stainless version. Happy to shoot 777, but just as well keep it around for the Knight as I can't shoot BH209 in it. Love the idea of shooting multiple shots without swabbing. While hunting, I can easily load a back up round or two in the Knight, but at the range, I always swab between shots. Figure my first shot is going to be from a clean barrel anyway, I may as well prepare that way.

The .54 Hawken (Investarms from a Cabela's kit I built lots of years ago) is tough to shoot reliably. It is pretty accurate when I do my part, but it isn't anywhere near as accurate as my Knight. But I do want to hunt with it someday.

Thank you!
FH


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Firehawk said:


> Love the idea of shooting multiple shots without swabbing.


Good luck with that... my POI drifted without swabbing using BH209. At the range I still had to swab between shots for max accuracy (in my Remington 700ML, a known shooter. The Accura PR I bought, had its own plethora of issues). Maybe if you got it super fouled with bh209, the POI might stabilize at some point. I never got that far. I burned over 2 cans of BH209 trying to find a load that worked. Thats $150 in powder alone plus all the other components.

Be forewarned though, BH209 while not corrosive, its SUPER hydroscopic. Western Powders (now owned by Hodgdon) even changed the wording on their cans now to reflect this, too many pissed off rusty gun owners. I've never had a spec of rust in my Stainless Steel Remington 700ML until I tried BH209. I cleaned the barrel before storage, but not around the breech because like they say, it doesn't corrode. Well it rusted the hell out of it within 4 months of winter. I had to beat on the gun more than I would ever like to get the breech out (and it had never seize on the threads). Luckily the rust was primarily around the breech and not down the barrel. I replaced the vent-liner, wire wheel'ed the breech to clean it up. Removed as much rust as I could at the breech end of the barrel, reassembled with more never-seize and switched back to PyroRS. Luckily, the gun still shoots 1.5-2.5MOA depending on my eyes with pyro.

For Accura loads, I never found one that worked well. Accura barrels are super tight, so sabot selection is going to be critical (if you use them). I never tried full bore conicals... I was so frustrated in the gun, I didnt want to dump more $$$ into it trying to find a good load so I sold it. I was getting hits and random misses on 24x24" targets at 100. Thought it was the CVA kit Konus scope so I put a vortex diamondback on it... nope, same incredibly bad accuracy. It was easily the least accurate gun I've ever owned. I put it on KSL and unloaded it.

I do believe people get some shooters, hopefully the MR-X is a good one. I'd recommend starting off with whatever load and bullet CVA recommends, then experiment from there. I'd also stick with Pyro or 777 if your gun likes it.

The MR-X looks neat, I didn't like the weird takedown ramrod though, seems like it will take alot of extra time to dig it out if you need it in a hurry.

-DallanC


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Good luck with that... my POI drifted without swabbing using BH209. At the range I still had to swab between shots for max accuracy (in my Remington 700ML, a known shooter. The Accura PR I bought, had its own plethora of issues). Maybe if you got it super fouled with bh209, the POI might stabilize at some point. I never got that far. I burned over 2 cans of BH209 trying to find a load that worked. Thats $150 in powder alone plus all the other components.
> 
> Be forewarned though, BH209 while not corrosive, its SUPER hydroscopic. Western Powders (now owned by Hodgdon) even changed the wording on their cans now to reflect this, too many pissed off rusty gun owners. I've never had a spec of rust in my Stainless Steel Remington 700ML until I tried BH209. I cleaned the barrel before storage, but not around the breech because like they say, it doesn't corrode. Well it rusted the hell out of it within 4 months of winter. I had to beat on the gun more than I would ever like to get the breech out (and it had never seize on the threads). Luckily the rust was primarily around the breech and not down the barrel. I replaced the vent-liner, wire wheel'ed the breech to clean it up. Removed as much rust as I could at the breech end of the barrel, reassembled with more never-seize and switched back to PyroRS. Luckily, the gun still shoots 1.5-2.5MOA depending on my eyes with pyro.
> 
> ...


Man Dallan, your remarks make me sad/nervous. You dang Joy Kill  . I am not anywhere new to shooting a ML. I have been shooting a ML since the late 90s and it has been my main used weapon for deer for a lot of years. I have only ever used Goex Black Powder in my kit Hawken I built from a Cabela's kit, I used Pyrodex RS in my old TC Firehawk, and I have used a lot of 777 in my Knight and it is way easier to clean than Pyrodex or Black Powder in my experience. But I have heard a lot of really good things about BH209. I knew I couldn't shoot it in my "plunger" gun Knight Wolverine 209 (Bighorn really, as I have the conversion plug etc.) so I had never purchased any. But I have family and friends that have found it MUCH easier to work with and use with their Knight Disc Elite rifles. But I did buy a couple bottles last week from someone off the KSL classifieds and felt "taken advantage of" but it was my choice. With all that said, I am extremely careful to clean my rifles thoroughly before I put them away for the winter. That is just good practice regardless of the weapon type in my experience.

I have always been a fan of TC ML rifles too, but I couldn't find one new anywhere. Knights were really hard to find, and loads of happy people talking about their CVA Accura/Optima etc. so I decided to give it a chance. While hunting, I have never ever swabbed between shots on the mountain. I have cleaned in camp, but never on the mountain. I have always been able to load quickly and when needed take a follow up shot. So I am not worried about the collapsible ram rod. The moly strap will attach right to the bottom of my Marsupial bino harness and will be right at my finger tips when needed. I can pack a range rod (multiple piece) in my pack I guess. I typically have premeasured powder loads/speed loaders in my pocket for quick access and a short starter. In my pack, I always packed a powder measure, flask full of powder, extra primers and extra projectiles. I have never had to get stuff out of the pack. But don't say never...right.?!

Anyway, I really hope that my experience with this CVA is better than yours Dallan. Sounds like yours was a tough one to work with. Do you think that is why it was a "refurbished rifle"? With the cost of powder and projectiles and the lack of supply, I would hate to have to waste a bunch of money trying to find the right load.

For range work, I will always swab between the shots. Seems to make the most sense as I will always be hunting with a clean barrel to start. And, when I have a good load dialed in, then shooting multiple shots without cleaning makes sense. That way if anything is weird, I will be aware and work with that accordingly. 

Never been a fan of Powder belts, but have used Hornady SST, Partitions with Crushed Rib sabots, Barnes MX Expanders, No Excuses Conicals and the Barnes 285 Spitfire with terrific success. I suppose I may have to learn to become a fan of Power belts with my CVA, but would prefer Thor, No Excuses, and several saboted bullets first. I want a bullet to penetrate. I have never caught a Barnes in an animal ever. All have been complete pass throughs. Ranges from 85 to 167 yards. 

FH


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Sorry... my intent was not to dis on your new firearm. I've been hunting with a smokepole since 1986, with a 1976 T/C hawkin. I am incredibly anal about smoke pole maintance, cleaning and whatnot... that is why I was so furious about finding rust damage in my baby, the Remington 700ML (love that gun!). Rust only showed up around the circumference of where the breech and barrel meet, where I was unable to clean. I kicked myself for not fully diassembling it like I normally do. 

I am fairly vocal about things that dont work as they should, or live up to the hype. First outing trying BH209 I couldnt believe how bad the accuracy was... and worse yet, the fouling. I even came here and made a post on it, 3 years ago:









BH209 powder is FILTHY


So I converted my Remington 700ML over to a sealed breech design. Along with fixing what I consider a design issue with the gun, the breech is now "supported" which means I can try BH209. I finally got out to shoot the other night, primarily to make sure the ignition is reliable and bolt works...




www.utahwildlife.net





I know some people love the stuff... I just dont understand why. It fouls as bad as pyrodex, requiring swabbing between shots, causes rust if you dont completely scrub it free, you have to use solvents (you cannot use water based cleaners like windex), and its $50 for a tiny 10oz bottle of powder. Pyro is a full pound and still $20.

But... if it works for you then, /salute! I'm happy for you.

As for the gun itself I mentioned above: I got one of the refurb Accuras CVA was selling at the start of the year. Lots of forum members here bought one or two ... or 5. I just had no luck with it. I hated the stock... it was a really bizarre stock design. I didnt see any of the other forum members get a gun with that type of stock... recoil wanted kick up and back every shot. I havent been scope bit in 20 years with any of my guns, but this **** thing hit me 6 times. It was stupid how it behaved. The bore was ultra-tight and would cause uneven melting on the sabot petals, which in turn upset the bullets causing unbelievably bad accuracy. Different sabots or full bore projectiles probably would have solved that, but in this time of "hard to find components", It wasnt worth my effort.

*Bottom line, the MR-X is a neat looking rifle, dont regret getting it. Use whatever type of load CVA recommends, that should at least give you an example of how good the gun can be. I'll bet its going to be a great gun that you will love for a very long time.*

-DallanC


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Sorry... my intent was not to dis on your new firearm. I've been hunting with a smokepole since 1986, with a 1976 T/C hawkin. I am incredibly anal about smoke pole maintance, cleaning and whatnot... that is why I was so furious about finding rust damage in my baby, the Remington 700ML (love that gun!). Rust only showed up around the circumference of where the breech and barrel meet, where I was unable to clean. I kicked myself for not fully diassembling it like I normally do.
> 
> I am fairly vocal about things that dont work as they should, or live up to the hype. First outing trying BH209 I couldnt believe how bad the accuracy was... and worse yet, the fouling. I even came here and made a post on it, 3 years ago:
> 
> ...


Thank you! I was being a bit tongue and cheek with you. I have read multiple time your disdain for Blackhorn 209, so that was no surprise. I have never tried it before, but like you, hate paying for it. If it works, great, but it definitely isn't a "magic powder" I would assume. Triple 7 has been really good for me. And Pyrodex RS has been too, in my old TC Firehawk at least. I did run a few rounds through my Hawken with it as well. Seemed to do just fine, but I have purposefully tried to keep "real" blackpowder for that rifle. Seems to fit the purpose of that gun anyway. I guess I will have to let the rifle tell me which works best, but I am certainly not opposed to using Triple 7 in my new rifle if it performs the best. But I will give the BH209 a try. If it doesn't really have any advantages over the other substitutes, then I certainly do not want to pay what one has to pay for it. And that is assuming one can even find it. I didn't realize that I had to use solvent and couldn't use windex or spit or water even to clean the barrel. That stinks.

Anyway, thank you for your responses and help. I am looking forward to getting out with it and blowing some smoke.

FH


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm going to give up a "secret" I found two years ago and take it for what you think its worth. 

I've been shooting smoke poles a few years longer than Dallan and I have had, and still have more than I need (if that's possible) and some are now what I consider Non Shooters. They are in perfect condition but I just don't take them out anymore. I don't consider myself as a BP Expert but, I have many years behind me in figuring things out with them that the normal shooter wouldn't think about. We all know they can be finicky little things and drive one crazy trying to figure it out at times. Dallan has mentioned a LOT of his findings and I consider him one of the most knowledgeable members here.

This is my secret....I always loaded the powder by volume and never weight. After shooting at the range at 4500ft. elevation and then shooting at 8500-9500ft. I found POI was off from the valley. (as it should be) I made up some quick loads and loaded them by weight. Don't ask me why the POI changed from a 2" MOA at 100 yards at the 8000ft. elevation with the volume charge, to SUB MOA with the weight loads???? Same projectile, can of powder and nothing different but the weigh I measure the powder. This is still messing with my head trying to figure out the reasoning. 

Just my 2 penny's worth on the BH209 powder----I tried it and never saw any advantage of the stuff. I have always used 777FFF loose powder and wont shoot anything but that from now on.


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks Taxidermist! I like Triple 7 so I will beef up stock of that for sure. But seeing as how I spent my kids' Christmas money on a couple bottles of BH209, I will give it a whirl too. Thanks for the heads up about it though. 

I have never shot a pellet either. I am a hand loader, so I have always seen first hand the difference that a small change in a powder charge can make. So I have always approached the ML powders similarly. But I have only ever done it volume. Didn't see any real benefit of weighing out each charge on 777 or Pyrodex RS. Sounds like maybe BH209 might show those small differences, but I will start with volume for sure. Now you have me wondering about weighing out those charges on the mountain...due to the higher elevation. That could be interesting. 

FH


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

I weigh all my powder charges now, doesn't matter if I'm at the range or on the hill chasing deer/elk. 

I will be heading to the range with a digital scale and a 1/2" copper pipe with a flat base soldered to it to for weighing out the charge. I'm interested in the elevation difference POI with this method. I'll chronograph the shots and see what happens along with POI. It's going to take a while to do all this, but I will post my findings.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Yep, I weight powder too.

Also be aware that the difference in altitude will have a small effect on poi due to thinner air. With my goto load, calculating a 100 yard zero: at 200 yards the drop is 26.15" at 8500ft elevation vs 27.18" at 4000ft elevation, a 1.03" shift. Enough to matter? Nah.

-DallanC


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Yep, I weight powder too.
> 
> Also be aware that the difference in altitude will have a small effect on poi due to thinner air. With my goto load, calculating a 100 yard zero: at 200 yards the drop is 26.15" at 8500ft elevation vs 27.18" at 4000ft elevation, a 1.03" shift. Enough to matter? Nah.
> 
> -DallanC


I wish I was good enough to hold that 1.03" difference at 200 yards. But I have always run my ballistics programs based on 6500 feet. Gets me really close in most of my hunting areas, and still reasonable at the local range at 4700'. Thanks for the reminder and the tips.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

What software do you use? Just curious... I'm the author of PointBlank, a very popular free software for ballistics and load / firearm management.





__





HuntingNut


Home of PointBlank Ballistics Software




huntingnut.com





-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Dallan, have you seen any change in velocity between the elevations? That's what I want to find out when I head out next spring to the upper elevation.


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

Not at the muzzle, but down range change in velocity _IS_ what changes when you go from denser air to thinner air. Bullet slows faster in denser air. Muzzle velocity, I've not noticed enough difference to register on my cronograph, its all within the standard deviation values.

-DallanC


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

DallanC said:


> Not at the muzzle, but down range change in velocity _IS_ what changes when you go from denser air to thinner air. Bullet slows faster in denser air. Muzzle velocity, I've not noticed enough difference to register on my cronograph, its all within the standard deviation values.
> 
> -DallanC


I think you've saved me time, powder, bullet/sabot. 1.5" change of POI and a 20-50fps downrange velocity isn't going to make a hoot of a difference at 150 yards shooting at a deer.

Thanks!!


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

I've said it probably too many times on here... the vast majority of deer I've killed are around 60 yards or less. Most of the details people fret about just don't matter that close. 

-DallanC


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## Firehawk (Sep 30, 2007)

DallanC said:


> What software do you use? Just curious... I'm the author of PointBlank, a very popular free software for ballistics and load / firearm management.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Dallan! I thought I remembered that, but didn't know for sure. I have played around with yours a few times, but it has been a while. I will need to do it again.

Currently I use the Strelok App for my phone. It has been quite helpful and I have even used it on the mountain to make a correction based on elevation and my scope.

Thanks for attaching the link to your software. I am excited to go play with it again.

FH


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

I weigh every load of 209 and put it behind a Barnes 250 grain TEZ in the TC Encore platform.
No rust.
I have killed bulls as close as 13 yards and deer as far as 185.
My focus in big game hunting is getting as close as possible because I want to be a deer hunter, not just a deer shooter.
The BH209 has been very good to me.
I also have a like-new ML700 in the original box with all original packing and paper work. It has not been converted like Dallans is hence no personal experience with BH in it. I have kept it in #11 cap mode in case I ever want to go to Colorado, Idaho, etc.
I can tell from Dallan’s and Taxi’s posts they are both experienced muzzleloader guys.
I started out shooting a kit CVA Mountain rifle in .58 caliber at Ft. Bridger as a teenager in ‘83.
I can tell you this, my Dad thinks I am a sinner when he sees my Encore and what I’m feeding it….
I look forward to hearing your experience with the BH.
Since I’m talking to hardcore blackpowder guys, I have a 12 gauge single barrel muzzy for sale.
Custom ordered by my Dad in about ‘81 or ‘82 from Mowbrey Gunworks out of Texas.
I have some supplies for it including some Goex.

Dallan, any thoughts on why the ML700 was discontinued? 
Maybe a metallurgy issue and that is why you are seeing rust?


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

MrShane said:


> I also have a like-new ML700 in the original box with all original packing and paper work. It has not been converted like Dallans is hence no personal experience with BH in it. I have kept it in #11 cap mode in case I ever want to go to Colorado, Idaho, etc.


After seeing, and installing the bolt mod... I 100% consider Remington's original design flawed. The Badger Ridge bolt nose kit is GENIUS and prevents gasses that escape from a 209 primer from entering inside the bolt through the gap between it and the firing pin. For the most part, the kit seals up the 209s preventing virtually all blowby. Any that may escape will just exit around the breech onto the outside of the bolt. I loathed always having to pull the bolt apart to clean it. I had the tool that made it simple... but still.

The 209 kit how the bolts should have come from the factory. With a minor redesign of the breech plug, #11's still could have worked with it.



> Dallan, any thoughts on why the ML700 was discontinued?


The Model 700ML was quite popular, but people who didnt clean their bolts after every shooting session had bolt corrosion issues creating friction on the firing pin or weakened firing pin springs that caused eventual light strikes, or no strikes at all.

Remington haulted the 700ML and came out with that idiotic, poor quality "Genesis" rifle that had that swing out breech. That was a terrible gun and sold poorly. After that, Remington went with the primed pistol brass idea for their Ultimate. They should have just copied the bolt nose kit from Badger Ridge and put that on the Ultimate.

What is super cool about the kit is the bolt will extract spent primers so getting one stuck is impossible.

One other bonus with the kit, is it uses Lehigh Vent liners, so when the flame channel errodes from shooting alot, you just remove it and replace it vs buying a whole new breech. Vent Liners only run a few bucks so completely disposable. I replace mine about every 100 shots (I did buy a pin gauge to test the flame channel hole for excessive wear from badger ridge along with the spare vent liners).



> Maybe a metallurgy issue and that is why you are seeing rust?


Nope... because there's never been a spec of rust in that gun in just shy of 20 years. The ONLY place it rusted up is the small gap between the breech and the barrel that had powder fouling, that I couldnt get at with a patch. I had wrongly assumed the bh209 was "safe"... luckily though I didnt trust it enough so I had swabbed the barrel at least before storage. Remember, it rusted up in only a few winter months... from late Nov to around March.

Look at original BH209 cans vs the latest ones. They now call out the need to clean the guns and not let them sit.

PS: I bought another SS 700ML from a forum member here several years ago to give to my son as a Christmas present. If they are in good condition, they are worth more now than when they were new. He has yet to get the bolt kit for it... maybe never will. He bought a new Accura MR from another forum member here, he's only tried Pyro in it but it was plenty good enough for hunting. We need to fine tune his load a bit, I think we can halve his group size.

I really like the MR style.

-DallanC


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Thanks for the info Dallan, you have definitely done your homework!
I did enjoy shooting my 700 but once I saw the Encore I had to have it.
I had visions of collecting all the different barrels for it but have been so pleased with the muzzy barrel I just plain forgot about all the other calibers/gauges.
I did talk my friend in to a Encore and he bought the .17 HMR barrel for it and the thing is a tack driver!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

MrShane said:


> I have a 12 gauge single barrel muzzy for sale.
> Custom ordered by my Dad in about ‘81 or ‘82 from Mowbrey Gunworks out of Texas.
> I have some supplies for it including some Goex.


What are you asking for the 12?


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## MrShane (Jul 21, 2019)

Fowlmouth said:


> What are you asking for the 12?


FM, how about $400 and a quick hunt out of your boat.
I will pick up the fuel.
I hunt at my club off of my Ranger but it’s been many years since I hunted out of a boat.
I ran an airboat on the GSL for many years and have been wanting to get back around Farmington or Ogden Bay for nostalgia sakes.
UtahBigBull and Jerry will vouch for me(I hope…).


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

MrShane said:


> FM, how about $400 and a quick hunt out of your boat.
> I will pick up the fuel.
> I hunt at my club off of my Ranger but it’s been many years since I hunted out of a boat.
> I ran an airboat on the GSL for many years and have been wanting to get back around Farmington or Ogden Bay for nostalgia sakes.
> UtahBigBull and Jerry will vouch for me(I hope…).


I bet everything is froze up tight now. I'll try to get a look around this week and see if it's possible to get a boat out.


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