# Lab in training



## Caddis-n-Cutts (Sep 28, 2007)

I am sure this question has been asked/answered multiple times. I did a search, but didn't find exactly what I am looking for. 

Okay so, I have a Lab that will be turning one in September I have been working with her as much as I can and she is doing great on sit, stay, down, and kennel but we need to work on heel and here. She thinks the command "here" is an option and not a command so she comes when she is ready and not when I call her. What can I do to get her to come when I call her? I try taking her for walks, but she just wants to pull my shoulder out of the socket. How do I correct this problem?

TEX, Sprig I know you guys are the experts so I look forward to your response. 

This is my first attempt at "training a dog" so I am sure I have already made a few mistakes, but I feel that this one is going to be a really big problem come hunting season.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

well, give me some background on what kind of training method you have been using so far so i can get a handle on how you have been training her up to this point. this is by far the number one situation i get when dogs come here for training and its an easy fix if the dog has already been taught some things so that is why it would help if you could give us some background on the procedures you have been using because there isnt a quick fix but the solution is fairly easy if things are taught in the right order. a couple of questions, are you working her on a check chord with some kind of correction on the end, i.e. a slip lead which is very similiar to a choke chain but made out of the rope. 2, what commands does the dog know and do very well now? have you taught the dog the word "no" with correction? you mentioned she is good on stay and the reason i bring this up is teaching a dog stay is also the time you teach the dog "come" so my question is how have you been teaching stay and what command have you been using to "release" her from her stay position.

also, are you considering training your dog with an e-collar down the road?

well, see if we can help ya out. 8)


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm no expert by any means, but I have trained a bunch of dogs... The biggest hurdle with a young dog is getting the dog to pay attention to you and not distractions. To me the basis for this has always been the heel command. How I teach heel is really simple. First the dog has to be mature enough to handle the training and it sounds like your dog is ripe for the task. I use a sturdy ten foot lead and a heavy chain choke collar. Set it up so the collar slips and tightens when pulled on. Then after the dog has been kenneled for a while I let it out and go right to work. Put the choke chain on her neck and head off in a straight line for a pre determine spot about 50 yards away. She will no doubt lunge forward as usual and not pay you any mind. When she gets to the end of the lead you hold on tight with both hands and go the other way hard and fast. (Picture a calf getting roped in a rodeo...) If she doesn't squawk, you didn't get her attention. She'll come running up to you to catch up and will more than likely try to lunge forward again. If she does, and she will, you do another about face and pop her again. Soon she will be watching you wondering when you're going to make the next move because she wont want to get popped again. After a couple sessions she will be walking right at your side and not lunging ahead at all. She'll be heeling! And you haven't said a word! NOW, incorporate the word heel with what she is now doing on her own and keep her honest by changing it up and offering her new distractions to test her will. Soon she will be heeling through any distraction you can come up with. The next step is to install the E-collar and continue training with electric stimulation instead of a lead and choke chain. Now that you have her undivided attention you will be able to teach her anything. Keep the sessions short and sweet. Duct tape your mouth shut if you have to. NO TALKING and very little petting and praise for the first few days. You want her to know you mean business. Come or here is easy, once she's paying attention put the E-collar on and go for a walk. When she gets out in front hold the button down and say the command. The second she's headed your way take you finger off the button. When she gets to you praise her and give her the release. Keep doing this until she comes without the use of the E-collar. Once you've started training with the E-collar NEVER train without it! N E V E R!!! Plus, always put the collar on an hour or so before you train so she forgets she's wearing it and leave it on after you done training. Otherwise she'll get collar wise. Keep your cool and be patient and consistent.

Good luck.


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## Caddis-n-Cutts (Sep 28, 2007)

Thank you for the input.

To answer your questions. I am trying to follow Richard A Wolters method of "water dog" Yes, I am using a check cord and a choke chain. She knows sit, down, and kennel the best. I am now working on stay and here. She has been doing good, but like Tex said only when there are not any distractions. I guess she does come to me fairly consistent while we are in a training session, but its all the other times that she doesn't come when called. Like I said she comes when she is ready to come and not when I call her. I am open to the idea of a e-collar, is there one that you guys can recommend? As far as the correction after "no" do I always need to give her a command after I tell her "no?" eg...she gets into the flower beds and I tell her "no" what is the command after that? After she has "stayed" I just say "here" to release her to come.

I hope my jumbled mess makes sense. I have been going through the comments and trying to answer the questions in the order they were asked. 

I appreciate the advice. Thanks again.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

how long of a check chord are you using? i would recommend one that is about 50 feet or so. I personally would not use a choke chain here. And the reason is at the beginning part you are only supposed to teach and show the dog the expectations through attrition and much repetition. TONS of repetition. A couple of weeks of daily sessions before any correction is even used. The long check cord will allow you to keep control of your dog at all times so you dont need any major correction yet. Correction comes later after the dog has learned the expectations and not being able to see how your dog is reacting i can't say if he knows the commands or not yet but from what i have read so far it sounds to me like he needs more practice and repetition on the commands before any pressure is involved from any device like a choke chain, e-collar, pinch collar, etc... I want the dog to be perfect on a 50 foot lead before i use any major form correction. I use "no" and a slip lead initially which is a mild form of correction. And i want the dog to be perfect on lead for a number of days, say a week of daily training, before i will assume the dog has learned the lesson. Eventually the dog will need to be formally corrected, either with a choke chain or some other device but one of the most critical parts of obedience training is making sure the dog knows the commands before pressure and correction is applied so not to possibly dampen the dog's attitude. From what i am gathering from your post you are still in the teaching phase which is why i recommend a slip lead on your check chord for a very "mild" form of correction.

you almost always give a command after "no" because no means the dog is doing something wrong and you need to give the dog a command to show it the way out of trouble. for example, if you tell a dog to sit and stay and he moves, you command NO and then re-affirm sit and stay after "no". with your flower bed example, i would have said "no" then "come" afterwards to show the dog the good behavior is leaving or getting out of the flower bed. if he didnt come and you didnt have a check chord on him you would have had to just gone over and got him and walked him back to where you were when you called him to show him what you expect and that your expectations are consistent and you will back them up.

also, one thing to keep in mind, if you are training your dog on a check chord but you try and give the command later with no check chord or no way to control the dog you can be eroding what progress you are making with your training and just going back and forth with his progress. For example, say you are working on stay and come on a check chord. you sit the dog and then walk away and then call the dog to come. you might have to use the check chord to guide the dog to you as the dog might want to go elsewhere but that is why you have the check chord on the dog. you say come and keep guiding the dog towards you with the check chord until he comes all the way. Now, lets say an hour later the dog has no check chord on and you call him and he doesnt come. so you say come again and he doesnt come and you do it a third time, etc and he still doesnt come and you cant make him come because he has no control device on like his check chord. each time you give a dog a command you cant enforce and correct (even without pressure like an e-collar or choke chain) the dog is learning he only has to obey when the check chord is on. He is learning when he has to obey and when he can blow you off. the reason i am saying all of this is never give a command to a dog you are training you cant enforce. if you have no way of making him come off lead dont try and use the command yet. this is where the dog sould have some kind of lead or control device on whenever he is out of his dog run or any time he is free to run around because even if you aren't officially training him at the moment because there are always times you need to command him and control him and the dog is learning 24/7/365 so if you cant always control and correct his behavior you are teaching him to misbehave at times. when i am obedience training a dog, it takes at least a month and the dog never ever ever gets free range without a long check chord on him until he has been e-collar trained. that way i can always get control of the dog if needed and avoid him trying to skirt my commands. it is basically avoiding bad habits before they set in.

Just keep in mind your dog is learning 24/7/365 regardless if he is in a training session or not. their minds are always working and thinking. If he is a dog that lives in a dog run that makes this training much much easier than if he has free run of the yard all day but i know not everybody has a dog run for their dog so depending on your situation.

If you are serious about an e-collar i will help you with that if you are interested in getting one from my online store. I do give free training sessions for customers that get their dog training gear from me and I am a Sprotdog dealer so if you are considering an e-collar talk to me before you make the jump and i will set you up with some free 1 on 1 classes if you get one from me ( http://www.trainingyourretriever.com is my online store ).

I am just starting a 2 year old lab on obedience for a client that has had absolutely no obedience training at all. I will try and make a short video of what i am talking about and post it on my web site to show you what i am talking about. she is crazy and wild and never been worked with so she will be a good example. i have made some great, but small, progress with her already so it might help you out. Let me know if you need more info on an e-collar and i can help ya out with that.

Jeff


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

I don't use "no" as a correction, sounds too much like whoa...But, I'm training pointing dogs... For anything offensive. ie jumping up on me, digging, chewing, yapping at night, breaking before I give the release command, etc. I use a loud and abrupt Aaaaggggh!!! Fallowed by a physical correction if necessary. The scenarios Jeff gave are good examples. If she knows what come/here means but chooses when she wants to obey it she needs to ride the lightning! Slap that E-collar on her and light her up if she doesn't obey immediately! (Remember, if she's off the lead or check cord never try to enforce a command she already knows without the E-calloar! To prevent a collar smart dog you've got to have it on WELL in advance of any training so she doesn't get wise.) The first time you give the command should ALWAYS be the warning. Failure to obey results in stimulation. PERIOD! Once she knows you mean business EVERY time you give a command, and she only gets ONE warning before the juice hits her neck, you'll be able to teach her to deal cards.

BTW. And this is very important! Start with the collar so it just irritates her neck. Turn it up to where it makes her yelp and it's too hot. Place the E-collar on her neck and start with the absolute lowest setting. Keep dialing it up till you can see that it's bothering her but not making her yelp. Train with that setting to start. If you're training and she ignores the collar then dial it up until you have her attention again. Some dogs are very hard headed and need lots of juice to get them to comply. Others are very soft and need very little stimulation at all. You have to determine where she is on the sensitivity level or you might just fry her brain and wreck her altogether. Be VERY careful with the E-collar! Way to many guys go way too hot and turn their dogs into boot lickers. If I were you, I'd take Jeff up on his offer and buy from him. He'll get you started right.


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## JERRY (Sep 30, 2007)

Thanks for the advise guys. I have a 10 week old Lab and she just must be a good dog. 

Sticking with the same commands and then delivering vocal punishment seems to work fine.
Having a daily routine and play time has real good effects as well. Routine, routine, routine.

I also use the loud ARRRRGGGHHH! When you break that out they should know you mean business.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> I don't use "no" as a correction, sounds too much like whoa...But, I'm training pointing dogs....


Great advice for pointing dogs. I actually changed my "whoa" command to "wait" for this very same reason, no and whoa sound way too similar and since I am an old dude that likes the way i have done things and too stubborn to change now :lol: , i didnt want to change "no" to another word so i changed whoa to wait. I like to keep all my commands the same no matter what breed i am training and since whoa is just a pointer command and isnt used with duck dogs i changed that but I like the notion brought up here of not having commands having very similar sounds with other commands and even with the call name of the dog, it can cause confusion and we often times correct dogs because they are confused when we humans mistaken it for being disobedient because we didnt realize the confusion. that causes more confusion and often more corrections, and the cycle grows..... realistically, when we correct a dog we need to be 150% sure the dog knows the command and expectations and also there is no confusion with what is expected of the dog. I am of the theory that is is far better to not correct a dog when you should have then to correct a dog when you shouldn't have, especially in the case with confusion on the dogs part.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

JERRY said:


> Thanks for the advise guys. I have a 10 week old Lab and she just must be a good dog.
> 
> Sticking with the same commands and then delivering vocal punishment seems to work fine.
> Having a daily routine and play time has real good effects as well. Routine, routine, routine.
> ...


The number one thing you can do to get a great bird dog is start when they are this young and instill good habits at this very early age and help avoid the bad habits later. (this is the biggest reason i am a richard wolters fan. his whole method is based on this.) this is a great age to start basic and very easy obedience commands just to introduce the dog to the concept of "learning how to learn" at such an early age, i.e., to pay attention to you and respond to you. Just be careful with reprimand at such an early age as you can easily douse drive and desire at this age if you over do it so keep the corrections very mild and for the most part a stern vocal correction will often do the trick. training sessions should be very short and sweet at this age so the dog doesn't get bored but i highly recommend starting with the dogs training at such and age. there will be a time when your pup will get older and bolder and then the verbal correction wont be as effective and you will need to step it up a bit but for now your verbal corrections should suffice. that usually happens when the dog is about 6-8 months old and the dog begins to develop its independence, kind of like a teenager. :mrgreen:


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

TEX-O-BOB said:


> If I were you, I'd take Jeff up on his offer and buy from him. He'll get you started right.


Thanks. I really enjoy getting young dogs and new trainers started because i remember when i got into the bird dog world a looooooong time ago i was very fortunate to have a very knowledgeable trainer take the time to work with me and get me started right.


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## cornerfinder (Dec 4, 2008)

If I may put in my 2 cents, 
The come command should be the first and foremost. Your dog should want to come to you. If you are training a kennel full of pups, then there may not be that personal connection and you may have to resort to stimulation. I prefer to whistle (by mouth), when they get to you (and it better be in a hurry) give em a reward, pat them on the head. Good boy, good to see you, hey buddy! For me it started with a whistle. Now all I need do is nod my head and look at my feet. If you intend to, or are training multiple pups you may not be afforded the time to develop a personal relationship. Is your dog also the family dog? Or will it be kenneled until needed? I usually signal work time (hunting or training) by putting a collar, harness or vest (for me it’s a e collar and in deep winter a vest). 
Be ritualistic! before we do this activity (whatever the activity is) this happens. Repetition and consistency are essential. Also give your dog time to explore, sniff stuff and play without the, whatever collar you chose that signifies time to work. They are like little kids, kinda like we were when we first went into the woods. They wana check out everything. But remember they use ther nose to do it. When you put the collar on its time to pay attention to me!. I tend to be more on the gentle side when it comes to collars. Work time and play time should be almost interchangeable. It hopefully will be fun for your dog to. Congratulations on your dog. They are truly indispensable in the field, and the best natural recourse conservators ever made. 
Respectfully,
Corner


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

i am uploading some videos i took today that might help. I will post the link when i get them uploaded. 8)


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

My advice would be to first get on a good solid current day program that teaches well. I know people like good old waterdog still, heck I trained a few dogs with it myself, but that was before I realized how much significatly better and more thorough some of the modern day training programs are. I would recommend Evan Grahams Program. Being you are dealing with obedience issues (which by the way are the very most important part of training you will ever do - poor obedience and poor standards will haunt you and limit your dogs success throughout all stages of training), the Danny Farmer / Judy Ay**** obediences DVD is very very good and will get you well started towards success with your retriever.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

consistency and patience are what trains a dog. there are a million methods out there than can work but none of them will work unless one is patient and consistent. Trying to get a dog obedience trained takes time, at least a month with 5 days a week sessions. they don't need to be long but the daily work is important to keep the dog learning and progressing. I have a couple of videos uploaded i will get the links to give ya some quick pointers.


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

Sprig Kennels said:


> consistency and patience are what trains a dog.


Consistency and patience doesn't do jack if the person doesn't know what they are doing. Studying, learning and following a GOOD program teaches them what to do so that they can train their dog with consistency and patience to reach a desired result.

Post the vid's man, I always like to see them.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

tshuntin said:


> Sprig Kennels said:
> 
> 
> > consistency and patience are what trains a dog.
> ...


even the best program in the world isnt worth jack-diddly if people rush through it, cut corner, isnt consistent with their expectations and, heaven forbid, doesn't have a yellow lab. :mrgreen: :lol:  Ok, Ok, the last one about the yellow lab is optional but the rest of still applies.  Having a good program that builds upon each command is what I always suggest and what my method is based on but all kidding aside i would say most dogs fail to reach their potential not because of an "inferior method" was used but because patience and consistency was in short supply and their wasnt a regular training schedule followed.

travis, I will try and get the vids posted this afternoon, I was going to do it yesterday but my nieces conned me into going to lagoon with them yesterday and when i got home i was way too sick to my stomach from all the spinning rides and smell of the heavy grease they use on the rides to finish posting them to youtube. I don't know what i was thinking when i agreed to go there, i guess they caught me in a weak moment. :lol:


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## Caddis-n-Cutts (Sep 28, 2007)

Thank you everyone for the advise given. It has already paid off. She seems to be responding better with just the few tips I have been trying. The main thing for me is getting outside and spending time with her everyday even if I've only got 5 minutes of "free time" now that football practice has started time will be even shorter... guess I'd better wake up at 5:00 instead of 5:30 so I can work with her before I go to work.

Thanks again.


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## Caddis-n-Cutts (Sep 28, 2007)

Now on to the live bird question... I know I need to check KSL for the Pigeons, but does it matter what type of bird I get or is a Pigeon a Pigeon? Or is there a better bird to start out with?


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

thats great your making progress...and hey, 5 minutes of training can make a big difference so if you only have 5 minutes, still use it because it will still help a lot, especially if you can spend 5 minutes each day. in fact, 5 mintues a day for 5 days if far better than 25 or 30 minutes one day a week.....as for birds, pigeons work great to start a dog off with. some young gets get a bit shy with live pheasants and such at first and they are a lot more expensive. the dog doesn't care what kind of bird it is, a bird is a bird to a dog so start him off on pigeons and then change to other birds when the dog gets enough work under its belt. let us know how it is going. 8)


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## Caddis-n-Cutts (Sep 28, 2007)

> let us know how it is going.


I sure will.

Thanks again.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

here is one video that might help. I took it last week of a dog i am training for a guy. This dog is 2 years old and had absolutely no training done with it at all. it was very hyper and crazy, never been on a leash and when you put one on her she flipped around like a fish out of water. She was in a huge hole from a training standpoint, wouldnt come, sit or stay at all since she has never been trained on those things at all. I have only had her for about 3 weeks and now she is doing very well on lead and comes all the time. Just be patient with your dog as this is a great example of a dog that desperately needed help on coming and sitting and staying and now, today was the first day i tried it in fact, she is starting to sit and stay and go on command on short retrieves with birds where 3 weeks ago she wouldnt bring anything to me let alone come when called. Patience and consistency are key to training dogs, especially the patience part. 8) I should have taken a video 3 weeks ago to show where she was because this video doesn't do her justice on how far she has come in only a few short weeks but what i have been doing with her is pretty much what you will see in the video and just being patient with her.

http://trainingyourretriever.com/obedience-training-1/


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

Sprig Kennels said:


> [even the best program in the world isnt worth jack-diddly if people rush through it, cut corner, isnt consistent with their expectations Having a good program that builds upon each command is what I always suggest and what my method is based on but all kidding aside i would say most dogs fail to reach their potential not because of an "inferior method" was used but because patience and consistency was in short supply and their wasnt a regular training schedule followed.


You are correct in the fact that many different programs will produce positive results. But, I know for a fact from my own and many others proven or not proven results, some programs work much better than others.

I would also say that most of us, no matter how good we are, do not get our dogs full potential out of them. I know I have a couple like that and I know you have a few like that. Pretty much all of us who have ever trained a dog can say the same thing. Dogs are amazing animals and are capable of much more than we often get out of them. That could be from lack of patience, consistency, time, laziness, desire, other obligations or focus, etc.....

If I understand you correctly, patience and consistency and the two biggest factors in training a dog. Can I assume the word teaching falls under one of those words? If I don't teach, it doesn't matter how patient I am. I can be patient until the cows come home, but if I don't know how to teach it, it doesn't matter. Wait, didn't I already say that when I mentioned learning and follwoing a good program??? Someone can follow a mediocre prgram or a good one. If they are being patient, teaching, being consistent and doing all the right things to do so, why wouldn't one want to follow a good program instead of an inferior one?


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

tshuntin said:


> If I understand you correctly, patience and consistency and the two biggest factors in training a dog. Can I assume the word teaching falls under one of those words? If I don't teach, it doesn't matter how patient I am. I can be patient until the cows come home, but if I don't know how to teach it, it doesn't matter. Wait, didn't I already say that when I mentioned learning and follwoing a good program??? Someone can follow a mediocre prgram or a good one. If they are being patient, teaching, being consistent and doing all the right things to do so, why wouldn't one want to follow a good program instead of an inferior one?


I am not totally sure what you mean by this. Teaching IS training and training IS teaching. At least that is how i look at it. Patience and consistency are aspects of training or teaching which has a huge part in the success of the training/teaching. It is all about communicating with the dog, you showing the dog your desires and the you learning to read the dog's responses. This is why i say patience and consistency are so important. You have to be able to read your dog and see what he is telling you and that is where many people fail. They are so set on a set "method" and have to do everything "by the book" and they fail to see what the dog is telling them. This is because not all dogs train the same way and get the same results. The thing about dogs that gets overlooked is each one of them is unique because of their temperament and personality. Some are bold, some are shy. Some are strong willed, some are pushovers. They have many of the same traits all of us humans have and with those varied traits each one is very unique. Many of them will respond to the "cookie cutter" program just fine but many of them will fall apart and wont respond well to even the best built program that is rigid and has no ability to be modified at times on how things are done. This is why i cant just say follow "so and so's" program and all will be fine because if you work with enough dogs you will find not all dogs respond the same to to training. Some will throw you curves when you least expect it because it isnt understanding what the program is telling it. There are programs i like and do work with a good portion of the dogs but even the best program will fizzle out on some dogs, that is just how the dog training world is and those dogs that do fizzle out can and often times do respond to something a bit different. I see that here all the time in fact, many times i have to change things up and not go by the book per say because a dog isnt responding the way all the rest are. I have a couple of dogs here now that fall into that category. If somebody put them through one of the popular "good" methods i would guarantee you these dogs would be ruined in a month so i have to alter their training to suit their particular temprement and personality because they are different.

This is why i will say there isnt one program out there that blows the rest away. There isnt one that can say that on all dogs and never will be one. That would be like saying Stanford can teach every student to be a genious and that isnt possible either. I have seen some incredible non-hunting dogs trained to levels us gun dog people would love to have our dog at, maybe not the actual actions performed but to the level of communication the dog and handler has and i am going to say that these non-bird dog people have most likely used something a bit different that what we use. In fact, when i was watching America's Got Talent and watched that chic from Britain with her dancing dog doing all those tricks i was very impressed because how she was able to communicate with her dog. I would bet money her training method involved no shock collars at all which would mean a totally different method but the results were incredible. that chic was able to train/teach/communicate to her dog on a level not commonly seen in the dog world. I would love to know what method she used to train her dog because of how well the dog responded to her. I am sure she used treats to some degree, one thing i dont use, but you cant argue with the results she got from a different method. I have seen the same thing with sheep herding dogs and rodeo dogs, trained to levels that was mind blowing and I am sure they used a different method to teach their dog that what we use, even just for the obedience part.

Travis, hows that for a long hunt? :lol:  :mrgreen:


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## tshuntin (Jul 13, 2008)

Disturbing lots of ground.... I will have to read it when I am more awake.


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## Sprig Kennels (Jan 13, 2009)

tshuntin said:


> Disturbing lots of ground.... I will have to read it when I am more awake.


ahh, old man needs his rest i see. :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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