# Nope, you can't pack heat at the...



## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

Did you know that churches can apply for a receive an exemption to the C/C law here in Utah. One, and only one, church has ever applied and received such an exemption...yup, you got it, the LDS church! So...boys, ya just can't go packin heat to the ward in the morning!


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Heaven forbid that a private property owner were to exercise its rights. I don't agree with it, but I do believe in private property rights....


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

I think the law is well written , if you do not want a person who is otherwise legally carrying a weapon to carry that weapon on your property you notify them in a legally defined manner. The gun carrier is then obliged to obey your wish or risk prosecution. That seems straight forward to me.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Im Mormon and have always been perplexed by this. But I'm also assuming something had to have happened to make them want to keep guns off church property?


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## reb8600 (Sep 8, 2007)

That law has been there for quite a while. It is not new.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Bax* said:


> Im Mormon and have always been perplexed by this. But I'm also assuming something had to have happened to make them want to keep guns off church property?


Yes. Like the killing of that women by her husband in Salt Lake County at the ward house. He certainly obayed didn't he.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Al Hansen said:


> [quote="Bax*":28ie4wyi]Im Mormon and have always been perplexed by this. But I'm also assuming something had to have happened to make them want to keep guns off church property?


Yes. Like the killing of that women by her husband in Salt Lake County at the ward house. He certainly obayed didn't he.[/quote:28ie4wyi]

Can you imagine the outcome had there been 15-20 well meaning CFP holders attempting to return fire?


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Al Hansen said:


> [quote="Bax*":1kex2b4l]Im Mormon and have always been perplexed by this. But I'm also assuming something had to have happened to make them want to keep guns off church property?


Yes. Like the killing of that women by her husband in Salt Lake County at the ward house. He certainly obayed didn't he.[/quote:1kex2b4l]

I actually dont remember that story. How long ago did that happen?


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

Lehi in 2008 is the only one I remember.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2442115


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Cooky said:


> Lehi in 2008 is the only one I remember.
> http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2442115


Okay, I don remember that story. Thanks for the link Cooky.

Sad to think you cant go anywhere without threat of one kind or another


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

Cooky said:


> Lehi in 2008 is the only one I remember.
> http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2442115


She was outside getting in her car when he shot her, 15-20 CFP holders wouldn't have really prevented anything, except maybe if he decided to start shooting at everybody. I'm Mormon and I totally understand and agree with this decision. You go to church with nothing but peaceful intentions. Carrying a gun for self defense is sort of a way of expressing that you don't trust those around you. If people could have trust in the world, (which they shouldn't, I totally back CFP's and am only talking in hypotheticals) Then CFPs wouldn't exist. So IMO, bringing a gun to church is kind of showing that you don't trust the other people in your ward, Which is the opposite of the attitude the church wants you to have. Everything has a time and a place, and IMO guns don't need to go to church with us.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Last Man Standing said:


> Cooky said:
> 
> 
> > Lehi in 2008 is the only one I remember.
> ...


Great perspective LMS!


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> Police say the woman's husband opened fire on her in the parking lot, without even saying a word, leaving her dead and witnesses hysterical





> Sgt. Jeff Swenson, with the Lehi Police Department, said, "There was no confrontation, there was nothing said. He just opened fire on her, like I said, he fired multiple rounds and several hit her, and then he left the scene."


Nope, I don't think anything or anyone could have stopped it. Like has been said, only if he kept shooting others, but the next person might.

But this discussion has been going on for years on the shooting forums.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

It is not an isolated incident. If you don't believe the problems of the world are not attending churchs you live in a makebelieve world. :O•-:


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

Al Hansen said:


> It is not an isolated incident. If you don't believe the problems of the world are not attending churchs you live in a makebelieve world. :O•-:


I wholeheartedly believe the problems of the world are attending. Isn't that one of the reasons religion exists in the first place, To help us cope with the evils of the world? I don't know, I guess you're never really safe anywhere you go, but of all the places I travel, I think my church is the one I would be most comfortable not having a gun at.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

Al Hansen said:


> It is not an isolated incident. If you don't believe the problems of the world are not attending churchs you live in a makebelieve world. :O•-:


What do you have against the Land of Make Believe *Al*? Thems fightin words!!! :lol:


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## Mavis13 (Oct 29, 2007)

I'm aware of the policy and really I think it's just a matter of private property rights. Like it or not they should have the right. I too want the right to decide what happens on my property. I carry; but not at church. I too would love some incite as to what prompted this policy but I can live just fine without it. The one that bugs me is the BSA forbidding all firearms at camp. I don't go hiking on my own with out protection I always thought that was being prepared. When I was young firearms were a part of scouts. Now they just seem to tolerate them with all the requirements. I'm not saying the 12 yearolds should be packing but I don't see whats wrong with the scout master with a ccp carrying. But like I said it's a private organization; they have the right.


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## Al Hansen (Sep 7, 2007)

Bax* said:


> [quote="Al Hansen":x09q8xgk]It is not an isolated incident. If you don't believe the problems of the world are not attending churchs you live in a makebelieve world. :O•-:


What do you have against the Land of Make Believe *Al*? Thems fightin words!!! :lol:








[/quote:x09q8xgk]
Mr.Rogers was one tough SOB. He didn't need to carry anything, that guy was a fighting machine.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

Interesting topic. This rule doesn't apply anywhere but Utah, so it's not "church doctrine" not to carry in houses of worship. I think it's politically motivated and probably was done by PR folks rather than general authorities. Even with the rule in place, guns can be taken into meeting houses with permission from the person in charge. As a young men's leader I have brought guns into the church before for gun safety instruction. Just had to get the bishop's permission. And my current bishop has told me he doesn't mind at all if I want to pack at church. I don't feel any need to carry a gun to my Sunday meetings though. If I'm staging at a church building for a trip downtown though, I will pack some heat for sure. My bishops have always known I carry, so even if they found out I was carrying at church it wouldn't be a big deal.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

The instructor of my ccp class mentioned this and how the legal liability may discourage property owners from exercising their right to ban carrying. His thought being that if he were required to not carry, as happens at the ESA, but they don't really enforce the rule by using metal detectors or searches (like at chapels) it could place an even riskier situation in that only the law abiding/good folks obey the rule and the criminals, like always, skirt the rules. So, his point was that if the rule wasn't enforced and a rule breaker did shoot someone and all of the ccp folks had to not pack that day, can you imagine the legal liability? That may be the reason for many churches opting out of their right to ban firearms from their properties.


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## Frisco Pete (Sep 22, 2007)

As far as the private property thing goes (_as opposed to the church one_), would a person supporting such a narrow stance agree that the owner will assume full responsibility, _fiscal_ as well as any other consideration, for any injury, robbery, or other violence upon me that comes as a result of an incident that happens on their property. Of course someone wanting to be proactively safe would be an affront to the property owner - the one that _won't_ suffer should something untoward happen and makes no attempt at providing armed security for the person on their private property.

Obviously such a person must feel quite warmly about how "gun free zones" actually prevent violence from occurring on private property and support the cause of the anti freedom crowd. Or doesn't believe the average person is responsible enough and needs someone in power to nanny them. Certainly we should also apply this to hunting as well, where an even greater portion of the population walk around us with guns.

As for me... I welcome people carrying guns on my private section of America. And the exercise of their other Constitutional rights as well.

Maybe we shouldn't allow a person to drive on private property with a spare tire for their vehicle as well- or use any other safety device. After all, shouldn't the property owner be able to dictate anything according to their personal whims?


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

> As far as the private property thing goes (as opposed to the church one), would a person supporting such a narrow stance agree that the owner will assume full responsibility, fiscal as well as any other consideration, for any injury, robbery, or other violence upon me that comes as a result of an incident that happens on their property.


Nope, you can choose to go on to or in to the property or not. No one forcing you to go.

However, that being said and me running a business, I have no problem with my customers or workers carrying.


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

So, I ask you folks, when you're sittin there nibblin on that little chunk of dry bread, do you feel more safe or less safe knowing there ain't nobody "packin heat"?


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

BPturkeys said:


> So, I ask you folks, when you're sittin there nibblin on that little chunk of dry bread, do you feel more safe or less safe knowing there ain't nobody "packin heat"?


I feel neither of the two


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## wapiti67 (Oct 2, 2007)

If it's concealed...How do you know if I'm carrying or not? I carry everywhere ALL the time


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## proutdoors (Sep 24, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> So, I ask you folks, when you're sittin there nibblin on that little chunk of dry bread, do you feel more safe or less safe knowing there ain't nobody "packin heat"?


I can honestly say I have never given a moment of thought...worrying about my physical safety is not what I am at church for....... 8)


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

proutdoors said:


> I can honestly say I have never given a moment of thought...worrying about my physical safety is not what I am at church for....... 8)


exactly, +1


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

BPturkeys said:


> So, I ask you folks, when you're sittin there nibblin on that little chunk of dry bread, do you feel more safe or less safe knowing there ain't nobody "packin heat"? ]


I feel the same as Pro.

But also I have no fear because if someone came in with evil intent, he would get inundated with a barrage of Cheerios and Captain Crunch.  
Probably take 2 men with shovels an hour to dig him out.


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

bowgy said:


> But also I have no fear because if someone came in with evil intent, he would get inundated with a barrage of Cheerios and Captain Crunch.
> Probably take 2 men with shovels an hour to dig him out.


Hahaha so true :lol: :lol:


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## Narient (Jan 9, 2011)

I go to church and I don't trust anybody who hasn't earned it. I'm not saying I carry at church, but I'm not denying it either. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 and I know of several instances where a CC would have made a difference in church.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

The Logan Hospital has no gun signs on the doors. If you carry there and are discovered you have broken company policy. The worst thing they can do is ask you to leave.

In the LDS Churchs though, if you carry there you have broken the law whether discovered or not. Looks like three choices; you can either 1 avoid church, 2 disarm, or 3 carry deeply concealed and illegal. You decide.


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## Flyfishn247 (Oct 2, 2007)

You also can't CC on military installations and that completely baffles me. I don't think MAJ Hasan would have killed so many soldiers at Fort Hood had there been some soldiers who were carrying. Same policy goes for national guard installations, no firearms. Look at recent attacks on guardsmen in the past couple years. The recruiting station, the group at IHOP in nevada, not to mention numerous threats here in utah. You would think the adjutant general would make some exceptions. I know a lot of people who carry on these installations regardless. You never want to get caught with your pants down...


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## Wind In His Hair (Dec 31, 2009)

No carry at the VA hospital either. Federal building. You're actually breaking the law if you have any weapon at all, even locked up in your car in the parking lot. The hospital up here hardly ever has any guards anywhere, but I know people in other places that have gotten in trouble over their Leathermans.


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## James (Oct 7, 2007)

> That law has been there for quite a while. It is not new.


Yes it has. However considering the influence of the LDS church even in our law making, one has to wonder if the church had considerable influence in getting this law written in the first place?

Keep church and state seperate? Ya, just try.


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## Last Man Standing (Dec 7, 2011)

James said:


> Keep church and state seperate? Ya, just try.


I think a lot of Utahns who struggle with the LDS church's influence in politics don't take into account our heritage as a state. The mormon pioneers came here so that they could literally make their own laws free from what they perceived as religious persecution. They wanted to establish their own indepent territory aside from the US. The only reason Utah is now a part of the union is because Pres. Buchanan sent the largest army assembled in the nation at that time to prevent what he saw as a Mormon rebellion. IMO considerig our past, it would be amazing if our Capitol hill was completely free of LDS influence these days.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Not to really change the subject but for those of you that think that the LDS religion has a large influence on the state you need to take a trip to just about any of the southern states and see what happens there. The state of Utah isn't the only state in a bubble out there. 

The government of the state is reflected in the beliefs of its citizens weather they are LDS, Southern Baptist, Catholic, or what ever other religion is the predominant religion in that state.


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## El Matador (Dec 21, 2007)

James said:


> The Logan Hospital has no gun signs on the doors. If you carry there and are discovered you have broken company policy. The worst thing they can do is ask you to leave.
> 
> In the LDS Churchs though, if you carry there you have broken the law whether discovered or not. Looks like three choices; you can either 1 avoid church, 2 disarm, or 3 carry deeply concealed and illegal. You decide.


Can I ask where you heard this from? I think somebody is giving you bad information, because carrying a gun into a business, private residence, or church is the same. It's all treated as a trespass, and in all cases it's an infraction IF somebody presses charges. Any business, home owner, or church can specify what they will allow or not allow on their property - just like the no shirt/no shoes policy at a store. In each case the owner or person in charge must notify you that it's against the rules (by telling you, posting a sign, etc.), and if you fail to obey then you have committed an infraction and can be cited.

Also, the church can revoke the restriction by verbal communication from someone with authority (bishop). So you have more than just the 3 options you mentioned - the 4th option would be to get permission from the bishop and carry to church legally and in compliance with church authorities.


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## Narient (Jan 9, 2011)

Wind In His Hair said:


> You're actually breaking the law if you have any weapon at all, even locked up in your car in the parking lot. The hospital up here hardly ever has any guards anywhere, but I know people in other places that have gotten in trouble over their Leathermans.


Actually, a state law that passed not too long ago states that unless the property owner provides certain forms of security (i.e. - posted guard, fenced in parking lot, etc) then John doe is within his rights to keep a firearm locked within his vehicle.


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## Huge29 (Sep 17, 2007)

Last Man Standing said:


> James said:
> 
> 
> > Keep church and state seperate? Ya, just try.
> ...


Hard to say, but I agree with the GM lover, good insight!



El Matador said:


> James said:
> 
> 
> > The Logan Hospital has no gun signs on the doors. If you carry there and are discovered you have broken company policy. The worst thing they can do is ask you to leave.
> ...


I thought the law was cited on the first page supporting this assertion, not that I can confirm, but the info was there somewhere on this thread. With all of the new laws on the books from the last few years it is difficult to keep up on these.



Narient said:


> Wind In His Hair said:
> 
> 
> > You're actually breaking the law if you have any weapon at all, even locked up in your car in the parking lot. The hospital up here hardly ever has any guards anywhere, but I know people in other places that have gotten in trouble over their Leathermans.
> ...


That is a good point! I wonder if it is an issue of Fed trumping state law at a federal facility??


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## MadHunter (Nov 17, 2009)

It is amazing how much we regulate all us law abbiding and legally permitted to carry folks. That in contrast to the growing number of criminals that we do not regulate.

I just heard a discussion a few days ago on the radio about the private property exemption. The discussion focused on places like ESA. If they are prohibiting you from exercising your legally granted right to carry they can be held liable for any incident to your person that would have otherwise been averted by you drawing your weapon in self defense. It get a bit convoluted and technical with all the other exemptions out there.

My gun is never out of reach from me even in my house. If I am in bed it's on my nightstand. If I get up it's with me. when I am cooking or watching TV it is with me. I will not be caught by a home invader without it. I also carry almost everywhere (including church) except a few places. I will not take it to court. I expect the bailif to be responsible for my safety there. ESA....I just won't go there. If you want to know if I am carrying you will have to put me throug a metal detector or pat me down. I see my gun as I see my seatbelt. I put it on everyday but I pray I never have the need to use it.

On that note: I put measures in place to at least safe guard myself. I have a pre-paid legal service specifically for that incident that I wish would never come to be. I dread the day I have to draw my pistol. I wish it never comes and I wish that if it does that the mere sight of it will bring the matter to an end. I advise everybody to look into something like this. If and when the day comes; you can rest assured that you have someone looking out for you. There are many organization that have these services. Shop around and get the best you can get.


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