# Let's Talk Chokes



## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

There are a lot of different chokes on the market and honestly I don't think that more expensive = better performance, from my experience anyway. So this isn't about which choke is the best or worst because they are all good or all bad depending on the gun/choke/shell combo.

I use a full long range choke most of the time, but occasionally switch to IC or Mod. I have not had good luck shooting any shell that is faster than 1400 fps with the full choke. I read that anything larger than BB or faster than 1550 is a NO NO. I understand the BB part, but what does the higher speed do to a full choke? 

I always buy 1300-1400 fps shells, but now I am thinking I could probably do okay with the faster 1500+ fps stuff if I use a modified or improved cylinder. Do any of you notice if your patterns change when you switch from a slower to faster speed shell using the same choke?


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

In my experience patterning my shotguns, the faster the speed of the shell, the worse the pattern. I just use the factory IC in my Benellis and with the right shell, the patterns are 80%+ out to 40 yards.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

Another thing I have noticed is shooting lead and steel with similar speeds has really helped out my shooting. Instead of shooting loads that are 1200 fps for 5 stand, skeet, trap, and doves and then switching to 1550 fps shells for ducks - I've tried to keep everything in the 1300-1400 fps range. 

I don't know the physics behind steel vs lead, and what the velocity loss rate is for each - so maybe it's just a mental thing.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I use Federal #2 shot in a Carlson's steel modified choke tube. Works for me.


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## CGR (Aug 16, 2017)

Here are my results from last year. 
Pic one: Benelli SBE 2 with a Carlson's full choke. 
Pic two: Winchester SX2 with the factory Mod. choke; the owners manual says the mod. for lead counts as a full with steel. The box in the chart that is unreadable is Remington Sportsman. It just goes to show that each gun and choke combo has it's likes and dislikes. You never know until you try things out.


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## Luhk (Aug 16, 2017)

Really we over choke a lot of our ducks. Modified=full when shooting steel . Opening day when duck tend to only fly 20-40 yards you do not need a full steel long range choke, I go with a IM. I carry my chokes with me in my bag in a little case, and can switch it out if I am not getting my desired target hits. I go to my extended long range choke once the season starts turning to more seasoned longer range birds. I am not a fan of sky busting anyway, but the thing I hate the most is winging a bird.


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## ZEKESMAN (Sep 14, 2007)

I leave my I/C in for 99.99% of my shooting. Most upland shots are 30 yrds or less. Waterfowl its not about killing them its about fooling them. Get them in close. Vic


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

I have shot hundreds of patterns with probably 50 different chokes for loads between 1000 and 1800 fps over the years. I use to load and shoot a lot of those 1750 fps loads from RSI. What I found with fast steel is a long parallel choke section helps a lot. Ported or wad stripping chokes have never given me as good of patterns as a straight wall extended Briley or Carlson choke. Also tight chokes will blow fast steel patterns as well. I found LM is plenty tight in a 12ga and I get better patterns with an IC or even a SKII. I have shot 95% patterns at 40 yards, but I think that is too tight, probably because I am not a great shot. I find I like about 75% patterns at 40 yards.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

*My chokes*

Factory IC for ALL duck hunting with 1 1/16 oz of #3 shot at 1550 fps. I don't see a reason to use anything else. Kills all the ducks I need to kill. 8)


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## sketch21 (Jul 11, 2013)

toasty said:


> I have shot hundreds of patterns with probably 50 different chokes for loads between 1000 and 1800 fps over the years. I use to load and shoot a lot of those 1750 fps loads from RSI. What I found with fast steel is a long parallel choke section helps a lot. Ported or wad stripping chokes have never given me as good of patterns as a straight wall extended Briley or Carlson choke. Also tight chokes will blow fast steel patterns as well. I found LM is plenty tight in a 12ga and I get better patterns with an IC or even a SKII. I have shot 95% patterns at 40 yards, but I think that is too tight, probably because I am not a great shot. I find I like about 75% patterns at 40 yards.


Spot on Toasty!


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

I have really grown to like Carlson's extended sporting clays chokes. They work great for steel & tungsten. I own Pattern Master classic's (I wish they were not ported) they don't look that great on paper and they don't like tungsten shot. But with steel shot they kill birds. Last fall I stepped into the Heavymetal trap and bought a case of #2's just because of the rebate. I wont be purchasing anymore of that product. I patterned it on paper and was disappointed. So I bought Carlson's Cremator chokes for those shells and it looks great on paper. This fall will be the test on birds. The patterns from Cremator chokes look real good with steel also. Most of my shooting is within 30-35 yards and an I/C restriction works good for me. I don't shoot anything faster than 1550 fps. This spring I bought some Bismuth shot to play around with. Bismuth requires more restrictive chokes. I found that full choke produced the best patterns for me on paper.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

CGR said:


> Here are my results from last year.
> Pic one: Benelli SBE 2 with a Carlson's full choke.
> Pic two: Winchester SX2 with the factory Mod. choke; the owners manual says the mod. for lead counts as a full with steel. The box in the chart that is unreadable is Remington Sportsman. It just goes to show that each gun and choke combo has it's likes and dislikes. You never know until you try things out.


 That's a great example of doing your homework!


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

CGR said:


> Here are my results from last year.
> Pic one: Benelli SBE 2 with a Carlson's full choke.
> Pic two: Winchester SX2 with the factory Mod. choke; the owners manual says the mod. for lead counts as a full with steel. The box in the chart that is unreadable is Remington Sportsman. It just goes to show that each gun and choke combo has it's likes and dislikes. You never know until you try things out.


You're paying way too much for boollits.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

dubob said:


> Factory IC for ALL duck hunting with 1 1/16 oz of #3 shot at 1550 fps. I don't see a reason to use anything else. Kills all the ducks I need to kill. 8)


I agree bob, that's exactly what we shoot in all our guns and do pretty danged good for being such poor shots. Last year I made a couple of shots that we all looked at each other and said, how did that happen, same with the grandson. On youth day after he dusted the cobwebs off he was making crazy shot after crazy shot and most of them were first shot dead as a doorknob kills on birds I didn't even think he would come close to hitting. Heck one of them he shot my son actually caught it in the air as it fell to us...LOL


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

I've been duck hunting since I was 12 or 13, whatever the legal age was back then, and really up until last year, I didn't bother too much with chokes. I had a modified choke in my old pump gun and my dad was always a fan of BB shot so that's what I used for more than 10 years.

Last year, I went out and bought a Franchi Affinity semi-auto. It came with the full array of IC, M, and F chokes. I did a lot of research and got into skeet shooting. I'm not a guy who patterns his guns, I just go off what results a given combo of chokes/shells is giving me, but opening day, I decided to use the factory IC choke and switched to #2 shot. And boy, was I happy! I'm a decent shot, not a great one by any means, but I don't believe I missed a duck that day. 

I was a little leery of making longer shots with this combo as that's where your BB and tighter chokes can make a difference. The real test was when a goose came in at the edge of our decoy spread. I would guess 35-40 yards. I pulled up on him and BAM, he came splashing down hard into the water. Didn't even require a finishing shot or wringing his neck. Just one dead bird. I went home with 4 ducks and what I believe is the first goose I've ever shot that day and I attribute it to switching to a more open choke and slightly smaller shot with a denser pattern.

It wasn't just me that was shooting better. My dad popped an IC choke into his gun and barely missed as well. I firmly believe most duck hunters over-choke their guns. This is just my opinion but you guys shooting full chokes with steel shot are nuts. My factory Full choke says right on the front "LEAD ONLY".

I never got much of a chance to use it since my wife got it for me for Christmas last year, but I also have a Trulock Precision Hunter extended Light Modified (Skeet II) choke. Light Modified bridges the gap between IC and Modified and I've read it may be the best overall waterfowl choke. Open enough to use over decoys yet tight enough to make longer shots with. The only time I used it last year resulted in a dropped mallard at 40 yards. I'm excited to do a little more testing with it this year.


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## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

The Carlson's extended range choke is the only choke I will ever use... by default... because it's permanently stuck in my barrel.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

moabxjeeper said:


> I firmly believe most duck hunters over-choke their guns. This is just my opinion but you guys shooting full chokes with steel shot are nuts.


I shoot a Carlson full long range most of the time in my 12 gauge. I picked up a Kicks High Flyer Improved Cylinder for my 20 gauge. I want to give that a try as most of my hunting with the 20 will be over decoys at 20 yards or less. I will tell you though, the full choke used with the right shell produces some far distance kill shots.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

Fowlmouth said:


> I shoot a Carlson full long range most of the time in my 12 gauge. I picked up a Kicks High Flyer Improved Cylinder for my 20 gauge. I want to give that a try as most of my hunting with the 20 will be over decoys at 20 yards or less. I will tell you though, the full choke used with the right shell produces some far distance kill shots.


I'm referring to a full choke that is designed for lead only and I know a LOT of people out there use those for duck hunting. Yours is a waterfowl specific choke and therefore obviously made for steel shot. That will work.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

MJ, PM sent


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

With shotguns being furnished with shims and length of pull spacers and choke tubes. One of the most important things to do with that new shotgun is shoot some paper. Compare the point of aim to the point of impact. Study those patterns with several loads and choke combinations. You might be pleasantly surprised or you may just put that gun on KSL? I wont wait until opening day to try it out.

For sale dust collecting factory flush mounted screw in choke tubes. Beretta/Benelli mobile chokes 12, 20 and 28ga. skeet, I/C, mod and full chokes
Invector plus chokes 12 and 20ga skeet, I/C, mod and full chokes


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

moabxjeeper said:


> I'm referring to a full choke that is designed for lead only and I know a LOT of people out there use those for duck hunting. Yours is a waterfowl specific choke and therefore obviously made for steel shot. That will work.


I have never used a factory full choke with steel shot. Honestly I thought it would be okay in modern firearms, but as I read through my owners manual for the Weatherby SA-08 it clearly states not to use the full with steel. So thanks for pointing that out. I picked up a case of Kent 3" #2's for the 20 gauge. They are faster than what I usually get (1550 fps) but I am hoping with the IC choke they will pattern good. If not they will be in the Trading Post for sale.:smile:


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Fowlmouth said:


> I have never used a factory full choke with steel shot. Honestly I thought it would be okay in modern firearms, but as I read through my owners manual for the Weatherby SA-08 it clearly states not to use the full with steel. So thanks for pointing that out. I picked up a case of Kent 3" #2's for the 20 gauge. They are faster than what I usually get (1550 fps) but I am hoping with the IC choke they will pattern good. If not they will be in the Trading Post for sale.:smile:


My Benelli Full and IM choke tubes say right on them, "No steel shot". I shoot CYL, SK, and IC pretty much exclusively. I probably have more than 40 choke tubes, all factory, and don't think I'll ever buy an aftermarket tube. I miss them just fine with what I have.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

Fowlmouth said:


> I have never used a factory full choke with steel shot. Honestly I thought it would be okay in modern firearms, but as I read through my owners manual for the Weatherby SA-08 it clearly states not to use the full with steel. So thanks for pointing that out.


No problem. Ask me how I found that out... :rain:


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I always thought it was interesting how chokes are differentwhen it comes to steel.

Lead___________ Steel
Full Choke à Don't use
Modified à Full
Improved à Modified
Cylinder à Improved


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

These are a couple of the articles I read that finally swayed me to buy my Light Modified (Skeet 2) choke:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/the-gun-nuts/is-light-modified-the-best-all-around-choke

http://www.chuckhawks.com/magic_shotgun_choke.htm

I bought the same exact choke mentioned in the Chuck Hawks article. Trulock Precision Hunter extended Skeet 2 (not ported!!). Like I mentioned before, I had very limited time using this choke, but I have a feeling it may be my go-to choke for ducks this season.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I know guys have good luck with open chokes like S C IC IM, but I just can't give up my long range Carlson in my 12 gauge. I can hit close, mid and long range with it. 
As I stated before I am going to try a Kicks High Flyer IC in my 20 ga. this season with the Kent Fasteel. I need to go pattern that combination and see if it is up to par. I may pick up another Kicks in Modified to have options. Carlson sure has missed the boat on their 20 ga. offerings. Man I would love to try a Cremator in my Weatherby, but they don't make it in that gauge.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

moabxjeeper said:


> These are a couple of the articles I read that finally swayed me to buy my Light Modified (Skeet 2) choke:
> 
> http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/the-gun-nuts/is-light-modified-the-best-all-around-choke
> 
> ...


You should compare that choke to your factory IC tube. On paper. It will pattern tighter with steel shot, and tighter is rarely better.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

I shoot the Carlson's long range too!

It thumps hard close range, but gives better grouping farther out.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Fowlmouth said:


> I know guys have good luck with open chokes like S C IC IM, but I just can't give up my long range Carlson in my 12 gauge. I can hit close, mid and long range with it.
> As I stated before I am going to try a Kicks High Flyer IC in my 20 ga. this season with the Kent Fasteel. I need to go pattern that combination and see if it is up to par. I may pick up another Kicks in Modified to have options. Carlson sure has missed the boat on their 20 ga. offerings. Man I would love to try a Cremator in my Weatherby, but they don't make it in that gauge.


Should of waited to order your chokes. I talked to Carlson's and the 20ga Cremator chokes will be out shortly. He told me 6 to 8 weeks and that was 3 weeks ago.

I tried the cremators In my sx3 12ga a month ago on paper and they look very promising


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

*About chokes*

When folks talk about the choke designations of Skeet, IC, Skeet 2 (LM), Modified, etc., those designations almost always refer to the chokes performance with lead shot. And those designations are shorthand for the percentage of the shot load that is within a 30" circle at 40 yards. The table below shows the AVERAGE percentage for each of the designations.

Cyl .000 in 40%
Skeet	.005 in	53%
Imp Cyl	.010 in	57%
Mod .020 in	67%
Imp Mod	.030 in	73%
Full .040 in	75%

The aftermarket STEEL shot chokes are mostly labeled for the general ranges they work best at, i.e., short/close range, mid-range, and so on. Steel does not compress under shotgun pressures when traveling through the barrel, and that is why, even with barrels rated to handle steel pellets, most manufactures recommend that you not shoot steel through their IM or Full chokes.

If you measure the constriction amount in an aftermarket steel shot choke tube, you will find that they measure under .025" which would be a tight Modified choke for lead shot. And one of the reasons why the steel shot chokes work well over larger range groupings is because there is almost no pellet loss in the pattern from flattened pellets flying off to the sides of the pattern. You are getting denser patterns at longer ranges even with chokes rated for close work. Nature of the beast.

If you are killing lots of birds at close range with tighter chokes designations, all that means is that you are a much better shotgun marksman than most of us.

The aftermarket makers go to great lengths to label and market their products for the job they are intended to do. They are NOT tied to the lead shot choke designations that most of us have used for many years when talking about lead shot shooting like in Trap, Skeet, and SC. The ONLY thing that doesn't change based on the shot material is the amount of constriction (in inches) that exists in any given choke tube compared to the inside diameter of the barrel.

There are many variables in the design of a choke tube that have an impact on the pattern percentage you will get on paper. Every maker thinks their design is the best. They can't all be right in this regard. And the only way you will absolutely know for sure is to pattern your gun, choke, shell combinations. Every time you change a choke or shell recipe, you COULD get a different outcome in a 30" circle at 40 yards. And it's also possible that it will not change by any significant amount.

As a general rule, your factory IC choke will work in almost all scenarios. And as another general rule, there isn't ANY choke that will allow you to CONSISTENTLY kill birds at 100 yards or more; and yet, we see people try every year. Improve your distance perception, keep all your shots under 50 yards, and you'll become a better waterfowl killer as a result. Take care, shoot straight, and have a great season.

:O--O:


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

JerryH said:


> Should of waited to order your chokes. I talked to Carlson's and the 20ga Cremator chokes will be out shortly. He told me 6 to 8 weeks and that was 3 weeks ago.
> 
> I tried the cremators In my sx3 12ga a month ago on paper and they look very promising


Oh! that's good to know. I got my kicks choke for $18 on clearance at Midway so I don't feel bad about that. I do want a Cremator in 20 ga. I'm surprised it took them this long to make it in 20 ga. I have heard a lot of positive things about them. If they are anything like my Carlson LR Super Steel I will be happy.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

One of my best guns is actually a pre 1965 Remington Model 1100 Magnum with a 30 inch improved cylinder fixed choke barrel. The grandson uses it but dang, every time I get to shoot it they fall door nail dead on the first shot. I'm trying to talk him out of that gun but not having any success yet. Last year I made a shot on a pintail with it and we all looked at each other, eyes about to pop out of our heads and said how the heck did that happen. Heck I wasn't even trying to hit it I was testing it out because it had jammed on the duck before and I was trying to see if I had fixed the jam problem.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

FYI some models of the 20ga Cremator chokes are available.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

JerryH said:


> FYI some models of the 20ga Cremator chokes are available.


I contacted them 2 weeks ago and they told me they would have some ready in about a week. This is good to know. Thanks!

Did you find them on Carlson's website? I hope they have a Weatherby choke ready to ship.:grin:


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Give Scott a call. I ordered mine today. Knowing Carlson's I'll be shooting paper Sunday morning to see how they look.

I find it strange that Weatherby chose invecter plus chokes for the 20ga. They use mobile chokes in the 28ga.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

I like to shoot ducks!.............................


Patternmaster Classic LR for me...I just ordered a hevi shot extended range choke for my sx3 20ga since I plan on shooting hevi metal and heviX #4's...we will see what paper shows.


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

I have shot a pattern master extended range tube in my Benelli for 10 years and believe me when it says it has a 70 yard range, it isn't lying. I use it for everything, amazingly it isn't super tight up close. I shot a triple several years ago with it at about 35 yards (judyboi can verify this claim) I haven't done any scientific tests with it, like patterning it but I am confident with it and I kill birds.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

I had a black synthetic Franchi Affinity I bought used last year that I ended up selling to my dad. I liked that gun so much I went and bought the same exact one but in Max 5 camo. I took my Trulock light modified (SKT2) choke down to Lee Kay on Saturday to try it out for the first time with my "new" gun. Boy, was I impressed!

We started out by shooting a round of skeet. As expected, it was a little tight for the very closest shots. I couldn't hit anything from station 8 (the one in the middle right between the two towers). It performed excellent on the longer passing shots however. I can break those no problem with my actual skeet choke, but the breaks were much more positive with the LM choke.

After that we moved on to 5 stand. I'd never shot that before but it was always something I'd been interested in. And let me tell you, if you've never shot it before, you're missing out! I had absolute blast down there. The shots are a lot less predictable than skeet. Really good practice for hunting situations for sure. My choke was absolutely perfect for everything on that range, with the exception of the rabbit that comes out and bounces right in your face. I think I shot at least a 20, if not a 21-22/25 on that range the first time trying it.

I'm about 95% confident that choke won't be coming out of my gun when the opener comes around. I was very impressed.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

moabxjeeper said:


> I had a black synthetic Franchi Affinity I bought used last year that I ended up selling to my dad. I liked that gun so much I went and bought the same exact one but in Max 5 camo. I took my Trulock light modified (SKT2) choke down to Lee Kay on Saturday to try it out for the first time with my "new" gun. Boy, was I impressed!
> 
> We started out by shooting a round of skeet. As expected, it was a little tight for the very closest shots. I couldn't hit anything from station 8 (the one in the middle right between the two towers). It performed excellent on the longer passing shots however. I can break those no problem with my actual skeet choke, but the breaks were much more positive with the LM choke.
> 
> ...


That choke will throw a totally different pattern with steel and a different pattern with different shot sizes. Go put it on paper if you don't believe me. I'm not saying it won't be a good choke for waterfowl, I'm just saying lead is different than steel.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

Ive tried a few of the aftermarket chokes but have always found myself going back to factory Mod or Cyl.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

Fowlmouth said:


> That choke will throw a totally different pattern with steel and a different pattern with different shot sizes. Go put it on paper if you don't believe me. I'm not saying it won't be a good choke for waterfowl, I'm just saying lead is different than steel.


Oh, I know and I believe you 100%. Here's the thing - I have a hard enough time going to the range to sight my rifle in once a year, which I do only out of pure necessity.

Taking my shotgun down to shoot at circles on a piece of paper and then counting dots sounds like punishment for shoplifting in a foreign country to me.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

moabxjeeper said:


> Taking my shotgun down to shoot at circles on a piece of paper and then counting dots sounds like punishment for shoplifting in a foreign country to me.


I think it sounds like preparation.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

CPAjeff said:


> I think it sounds like preparation.


I didn't say there wasn't any value to it! -O\\__--/|\\-


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Longgun said:


> Ive tried a few of the aftermarket chokes but have always found myself going back to factory Mod or Cyl.


Certainly nothing wrong with factory chokes. I just can't figure out why gun manufacturers don't offer extended choke tubes in the box with the flush barrel tubes. I do like to have the extended tube when shooting steel.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Fowlmouth said:


> Certainly nothing wrong with factory chokes. I just can't figure out why gun manufacturers don't offer extended choke tubes in the box with the flush barrel tubes. I do like to have the extended tube when shooting steel.


Perhaps extended chokes may be of benefit for tighter constrictions, but I doubt they help more open chokes. I seriously doubt extended Cyl through IC tubes, maybe even Mod, will give better patterns than flush chokes. I think most hunters should try the factory IC first. Skeet may be even better. Of course, that's for shooting over decoys.

huntingbuddy, a choke that yields a reliably killing pattern at 70 yards will be very tight at closer ranges. That's just physics.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

paddler said:


> Perhaps extended chokes may be of benefit for tighter constrictions, but I doubt they help more open chokes. I seriously doubt extended Cyl through IC tubes, maybe even Mod, will give better patterns than flush chokes. I think most hunters should try the factory IC first. Skeet may be even better. Of course, that's for shooting over decoys.
> 
> huntingbuddy, a choke that yields a reliably killing pattern at 70 yards will be very tight at closer ranges. That's just physics.


I'm not suggesting that flush mount chokes are not good. I simply like the extended chokes when shooting steel shot because that's where the damage will most likely occur, rather than bulging the end of the barrel.


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

Fowlmouth said:


> I'm not suggesting that flush mount chokes are not good. I simply like the extended chokes when shooting steel shot because that's where the damage will most likely occur, rather than bulging the end of the barrel.


Yup. It's a lot cheaper to replace a choke than it is a barrel. Apart from shooting steel through it, it also protects the end of the barrel if you drop your gun or smack it against something, both of which I've done many times in the marsh.

The one benefit you get on your pattern through an extended choke (so I hear) is that having a longer smooth section of the choke keep the pattern more uniform and helps eliminate flyers. A huge difference? Probably not.

Here's an article on the subject if interested: http://www.chuckhawks.com/extended_chokes_patterns.htm


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Jeeper

Station 8 in skeet is all about gun placement and once you figure it out its the easiest station. The target is 10 feet from your barrel. At that distance choke doesn't make any deference.


Back to extended chokes

Its kind of funny how things come full circle or get reinvented. Way back there was the Cutt's Compensator and Poly chokes. Just god awful looking globs of $hit screwed onto the end of shotgun barrels. Its no mystery why they fell out of fashion but the guys that shot them loved them. They were very versatile though. 

Then came the screw in chokes. Nice clean application and the smartest idea in the shotgun world ever.

And now we're back to extended ported tubes sticking out beyond the end of the barrel. The extended chokes are much better looking now days. And now we have barrel stickers. Cool!


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

JerryH said:


> And now we have barrel stickers. Cool!


Man those things went out of style years ago, when I scraped mine off.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Fowlmouth said:


> Man those things went out of style years ago, when I scraped mine off.


Did you get it from Banded? Lol


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

JerryH said:


> Did you get it from Banded? Lol


Oh he!! no!


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

I'm not casting stones at anybody who has already posted on this subject. And I absolutely mean no disrespect to anybody's beliefs when it comes to chokes. But some of the stuff that's been posted so far is not entirely true.


Bulged barrels came about when steel was first mandated and were experienced by folks shooting older shotguns with fixed chokes and early short choke tubes that were not designed to shoot steel. The barrel steel was softer than today's barrel steel made to shoot steel.  Bulging in any shotgun barrel made in the last 15 to 20 years is almost non-existent. Those rare occurrences of a bulged barrel in a modern shotgun probably came from some idiot who didn't read the owner's manual warning against using the FULL choke tube with steel shot; especially BBB or T shot. Bulging a barrel with any of the factory choke tubes at MOD or less is not likely to happen.


As to extended choke tubes, what they originally did was allow the use of a straight section in the choke tube that wasn't possible in early factory choke tubes that tended to be too short to have a straight section. It was thought at the time and proved by testing that a straight section in a choke tube could/would improve the pattern. Results vary on this because each and every barrel, choke, shell combination is a unique combination and two identical brand/model shotguns with identical factory/aftermarket shotgun chokes, and identical brand/load shotgun shells can give different results on paper.


Today, shotgun makers are offering much longer choke tubes that can contain a straight section built into it for optimum performance. And most of the makers are doing their very best to make sure you have a product that does in fact give you optimum performance with standard steel shotgun shells commonly available to the general public. However, they can't make a tube that will give the best performance with 100% of all the non-toxic loads available. So yes, there is a market for aftermarket choke tubes.


They allow you to fine tune your shotgun for use with some of the specialty loads such as BlindSide, Black Cloud, and HeviShot. They will probably give you some improvement in performance when using these specialty loads. But when it comes to everyday steel shot loads, you will probably find that your factory choke tubes will give you performance as good as any aftermarket tube you can buy.


But hey, it is your money and you are free to spend it on whatever do-dad you think will improve your success in the field. And the aftermarket companies spend a lot of money in advertising trying to convince you that they have the Holy Grail and using their product will magically turn you into a AAA shooter in the field on live birds. Good luck with that. There really is only one thing that will make you a better wing shot and that is trigger time. You need to spend more time shooting during the off season to build up an experience level of gun familiarity and how much forward allowance (lead) is necessary at different distances. The choke constriction (CYL, IC, MOD, etc.) will be a factor based on the distance of the targets, but who made the choke, not so much. So, shoot more, and shoot more often. That will improve your, and your shotguns, performance level way more than any aftermarket choke tube you can buy.


I'm ready for the 2017 duck season; is it time yet?
:O||: :O--O:


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## huntingbuddy (Sep 10, 2007)

paddler said:


> Perhaps extended chokes may be of benefit for tighter constrictions, but I doubt they help more open chokes. I seriously doubt extended Cyl through IC tubes, maybe even Mod, will give better patterns than flush chokes. I think most hunters should try the factory IC first. Skeet may be even better. Of course, that's for shooting over decoys.
> 
> huntingbuddy, a choke that yields a reliably killing pattern at 70 yards will be very tight at closer ranges. That's just physics.


And your point is what?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## moabxjeeper (Dec 18, 2012)

JerryH said:


> Jeeper
> 
> Station 8 in skeet is all about gun placement and once you figure it out its the easiest station. The target is 10 feet from your barrel. At that distance choke doesn't make any deference.


I definitely agree with the first part of your statement. I politely disagree with the second. I shot my first perfect game of skeet about a month or so ago, and nearly had two in a row had I not missed the stupid high tower there. But normally, with my skeet choke, I can break clays from that station all day long, no problem. At that distance choke makes ALL the difference. Anything tighter than improved cylinder at that range, you might as well be shooting a rifle. You have no pattern whatsoever. Just a tight string of shot.

When I first was introduced to skeet shooting 2 years ago by my father in law, I was using a Winchester pump with a modified choke because that's all I had. I shot good with it but I never once could hit that station in the middle. Sometimes guys would switch me and let me shoot their guns with IC or skeet chokes on station 8 and even before I knew what I was really doing, I could hit there consistently. Now, I shoot a Franchi semi auto with a Carlson's skeet choke and I hardly miss. Even at that range with a skeet choke you don't get much of a pattern. Cylinder bore would probably be ideal.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

dubob said:


> Bulged barrels came about when steel was first mandated and were experienced by folks shooting older shotguns with fixed chokes and early short choke tubes that were not designed to shoot steel. The barrel steel was softer than today's barrel steel made to shoot steel. Bulging in any shotgun barrel made in the last 15 to 20 years is almost non-existent. Those rare occurrences of a bulged barrel in a modern shotgun probably came from some idiot who didn't read the owner's manual warning against using the FULL choke tube with steel shot; especially BBB or T shot. Bulging a barrel with any of the factory choke tubes at MOD or less is not likely to happen.
> I'm ready for the 2017 duck season; is it time yet?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
> :O||: :O--O:


I shoot a full choke, that is why I have the extended. You can't shoot steel through a factory flush choke. I don't believe there are any modern shotguns I would feel safe shooting steel through a full choke without it being extended beyond the barrel.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> I shoot a full choke, that is why I have the extended. You can't shoot steel through a factory flush choke. I don't believe there are any modern shotguns I would feel safe shooting steel through a full choke without it being extended beyond the barrel.


I do not disagree with your reasoning. And as I said, those rare occurrences of a bulged barrel in a modern shotgun probably came from some idiot who didn't read the owner's manual warning against using the FULL choke tube with steel shot; especially BBB or T shot. However, if you are shooting an extended full choke tube marketed for steel shot (which we are discussing on this thread), then you are probably shooting a choke constriction that will generate a LT MOD or MOD pattern with lead shot. And you would get lead shot patterns at 40 yards with the factory MOD choke very similar to the patterns you get with your aftermarket FULL choke. Remember, all factory choke markings (CYL, IC, MOD, etc.) are what you will get with LEAD shot, not steel. Most will even say they are safe with steel, but the pattern performance is for lead shot.

Generally, the factory FULL chokes should never be used with steel. Most makers include that warning in their owners manual. I mean no disrespect to you or your choke choice, but based on over 50 years of shooting and patterning dozens of shotgun/choke combinations, I don't personally think you actually gain any real benefit from it. But if you're happy with your choke tube choice, I'm happy for you.
:O||:


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

dubob said:


> *However, if you are shooting an extended full choke tube marketed for steel shot (which we are discussing on this thread), then you are probably shooting a choke constriction that will generate a LT MOD or MOD pattern with lead shot. And you would get lead shot patterns at 40 yards with the factory MOD choke very similar to the patterns you get with your aftermarket FULL choke.*
> :O||:


Bingo. Choke constrictions for lead shot in 12 gauge have traditionally been:

CYL- .000"
SK- .005
IC- .010
Mod- .020
Full- .030

I think if you mike your extended Full tube for steel shot and your factory Full tube the latter will be tighter.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

12 Gauge Browning
Extra Full	.700
Full	.705
Light Full	.710
Improved Modified	.715
Modified	.720
Light Modified	.725
Improved Cylinder	.730
Skeet	.735
Cylinder	.740

My Carlson Extended Full is .710


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

dubob said:


> I do not disagree with your reasoning. And as I said, those rare occurrences of a bulged barrel in a modern shotgun probably came from some idiot who didn't read the owner's manual warning against using the FULL choke tube with steel shot; especially BBB or T shot.
> Generally, the factory FULL chokes should never be used with steel. Most makers include that warning in their owners manual. :O||:


The extended full chokes also have warnings not to shoot anything larger than BB and faster than 1550 fps.


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

Fowlmouth said:


> 12 Gauge Browning
> Extra Full	.700
> Full	.705
> Light Full	.710
> ...


The above figures are meaningless without knowing the actual bore diameter. Did you actually measure each choke tube or are you getting those measurements from the choke tubes themselves or a chart? From those measurements, I would guess that you may have a gun with Invector Plus choke tubes. Is that correct?

If yes, then you have a bore diameter of .741, +/- 0.003". Based on that criteria, your Carlson FULL choke could be giving you a constriction of .028" to .034". Standard American constrictions for 12 gauge shotguns (from Stan Baker) are typically considered to be: CYL, .000" (40%); Skeet, .005" (53%); IC,.010", (57%); LT MOD (Skeet #2), .015" (62%); MOD,.020" (67%); IMP MOD,.030", (73%); and FULL,.040", (75%). The percentage numbers can vary +/- 2% depending on the source, but these figures are close enough for this discussion. So your Carlson is really a lead shot IMP MOD constriction, but may in fact give you a FULL choke pattern percentage of 75% or more with steel shot. Constriction figures are nothing more than guidelines as to what you might expect in the way of performance, but only the pattern percentages in a 30" circle at 40 yards will say for sure exactly what the choke performance is doing.

And you thought this was going to be easy. WINK! WINK! :mrgreen:


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

moabxjeeper said:


> I definitely agree with the first part of your statement. I politely disagree with the second. I shot my first perfect game of skeet about a month or so ago, and nearly had two in a row had I not missed the stupid high tower there. But normally, with my skeet choke, I can break clays from that station all day long, no problem. At that distance choke makes ALL the difference. Anything tighter than improved cylinder at that range, you might as well be shooting a rifle. You have no pattern whatsoever. Just a tight string of shot.
> 
> When I first was introduced to skeet shooting 2 years ago by my father in law, I was using a Winchester pump with a modified choke because that's all I had. I shot good with it but I never once could hit that station in the middle. Sometimes guys would switch me and let me shoot their guns with IC or skeet chokes on station 8 and even before I knew what I was really doing, I could hit there consistently. Now, I shoot a Franchi semi auto with a Carlson's skeet choke and I hardly miss. Even at that range with a skeet choke you don't get much of a pattern. Cylinder bore would probably be ideal.


Don't worry about being polite. I can take it. 
Congrats on running a straight! Shooting a 12 with 1 1/8 oz of shot is - well hard to miss lol


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

dubob said:


> The above figures are meaningless without knowing the actual bore diameter. Did you actually measure each choke tube or are you getting those measurements from the choke tubes themselves or a chart? From those measurements, I would guess that you may have a gun with Invector Plus choke tubes. Is that correct?
> 
> If yes, then you have a bore diameter of .741, +/- 0.003". Based on that criteria, your Carlson FULL choke could be giving you a constriction of .028" to .034". Standard American constrictions for 12 gauge shotguns (from Stan Baker) are typically considered to be: CYL, .000" (40%); Skeet, .005" (53%); IC,.010", (57%); LT MOD (Skeet #2), .015" (62%); MOD,.020" (67%); IMP MOD,.030", (73%); and FULL,.040", (75%). The percentage numbers can vary +/- 2% depending on the source, but these figures are close enough for this discussion. So your Carlson is really a lead shot IMP MOD constriction, but may in fact give you a FULL choke pattern percentage of 75% or more with steel shot. Constriction figures are nothing more than guidelines as to what you might expect in the way of performance, but only the pattern percentages in a 30" circle at 40 yards will say for sure exactly what the choke performance is doing.
> 
> And you thought this was going to be easy. WINK! WINK! :mrgreen:


Yes my 12 gauges are Invector Plus chokes. This was a chart I found on Brownings site. I wanted to see the difference between the factory full choke and the aftermarket one. The Carlson tube has .710 printed on it.


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## Chaser (Sep 28, 2007)

Shortly after buying my Benelli SuperNova, it became apparent that I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, an issue I didn't have with my other shotguns. Hearing good things about Carlson's, I purchased a mid range choke for steel. It was as if I flipped a light switch. Immediate improvement. I have since purchased the short and long range versions from Carlson's, but I don't use them nearly as much as the mid, even for close shots on decoying birds. I've smoked plenty of birds with it since, and they generally drop stone dead. I have noticed that it only seems to like #2 steel shot. With lead I can put anything through it. #5 and #6 copper plated pills for pheasants seem to do well also. I am a believer in Carlson's! I even got ol' Bax* to convert.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Chaser said:


> Shortly after buying my Benelli SuperNova, it became apparent that I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, an issue I didn't have with my other shotguns. Hearing good things about Carlson's, I purchased a mid range choke for steel. It was as if I flipped a light switch. Immediate improvement. I have since purchased the short and long range versions from Carlson's, but I don't use them nearly as much as the mid, even for close shots on decoying birds. I've smoked plenty of birds with it since, and they generally drop stone dead. I have noticed that it only seems to like #2 steel shot. With lead I can put anything through it. #5 and #6 copper plated pills for pheasants seem to do well also. I am a believer in Carlson's! I even got ol' Bax* to convert.


So, what are the constrictions on those chokes?


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## dubob (Sep 8, 2007)

The constriction of a choke is determined by the actual difference between the tightest inside diameter measurement of the choke , and the actual bore diameter of the barrel. Benelli has a nominal bore diameter of 0.723". There are several different Carlson choke tubes for the Beretta/Benelli based on what factory series choke tubes came with the Benelli (i.e., Mobil or Crio). The inside diameter (ID) for the Carlson choke replacement tubes varies based on what tube series came with the gun. The Carlson Crio replacement tubes have nominal ID of Close Range (CR) = 0.717, Mid Range (MR) = 0.707, & Long Range (LR) = 0.697. That means the constriction for the Carlson tubes in a Benelli will be CR = 0.006 (lead shot Skeet), MR = 0.016 (lead shot Light Mod or Skeet #2), & LR = 0.026 (lead shot Improved Mod).

My Browning Maxus has a nominal bore diameter of 0.742, so naturally, the Carlson choke tubes for it are different - CR = 0.735, MR = 0.725, & LR = 0.715. This means the constrictions for a Browning Maxus is CR = 0.007, MR = 0.017, & LR = 0.027.

Based on that data, it can be surmised that if you are using Carlson replacement chokes, you are going to be shooting constrictions that are lead shot equivalents of Skeet, Light Mod, and Improved Mod. It ain't rocket science. The other aftermarket choke tube companies (Trulock, Kicks, etc.) are going to be very similar. They all have their own market hype which is designed to make you choose their product over their competition. So use whatever choke (hype) you believe will work best for you. Every gun/choke/shell combination is unique. Changing any or all of those may, or may not produce different results. The only way to know for sure is to shoot a lot of patterns on paper and count the pellet holes. And 99.9% of shotgun shooters don't have the desire to put in that much work to find out.

So the bottom line for most folks is this - if you find a combination that works for you, shoot it and be happy. :thumb:


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

It amazes me that aftermarket choke tubes even exist. There is no magic. As Bob said, it's all hype. They call them different names made up by the marketing department, but they all must have some degree of constriction. Factory tubes are all available in CYL, SK, IC, Mod, IM and F, which vary in increments of .005"-.010" constriction. If you can't find one of those that works for you, no aftermarket will either. Most will do well with their factory IC tube. Skeet tubes don't typically come with the gun, but they're worth considering.


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

dubob said:


> Factory IC for ALL duck hunting with 1 1/16 oz of #3 shot at 1550 fps. I don't see a reason to use anything else. Kills all the ducks I need to kill.


That's exactly what we use all the time and we do better than most with rarely a cripple


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

All I can tell you is my sx3 20ga with my Hevi shot extended range choke with Hevi metal #4 shot is going to stomp the lights out of some mallards this year!


I'm extended range choke guy. inspite of shooting birds inside 20 yds. I want to hit them with everything I got.......its ALL or Nothing.

I dont allow my birds to suffer meat damage from the shot either because I Choot'em in the face...


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Scrubbing guns today and getting ready for the trip. I just couldn't help myself from sharing a pic of this sexy extended 20ga choke. 

Have you ordered yours?


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

JerryH said:


> Scrubbing guns today and getting ready for the trip. I just couldn't help myself from sharing a pic of this sexy extended 20ga choke.
> 
> Have you ordered yours?


I'm waiting for my Carlson Prostaffer to put together another order. I talked to Carlson last week and they told me the Cremator is ready for the Weatherby 20. I still can't figure out why they don't use the same **** thread pattern on all of them (Weatherby). BTW it looks good!


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Fowlmouth said:


> I'm waiting for my Carlson Prostaffer to put together another order. I talked to Carlson last week and they told me the Cremator is ready for the Weatherby 20. I still can't figure out why they don't use the same **** thread pattern on all of them (Weatherby). BTW it looks good!


Invecter or mobile choke?


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

JerryH said:


> Invecter or mobile choke?


Invector


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

JerryH said:


> Scrubbing guns today and getting ready for the trip. I just couldn't help myself from sharing a pic of this sexy extended 20ga choke.
> 
> Have you ordered yours?


Dang it I should post a picture of my 50 year old Remington Model 1100 in 16 gauge that's going to be making it's first duck hunt in just a little over 40 years this weekend.


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## goosefreak (Aug 20, 2009)

JerryH said:


> Scrubbing guns today and getting ready for the trip. I just couldn't help myself from sharing a pic of this sexy extended 20ga choke.
> 
> Have you ordered yours?


I put that same hi-viz on all my shotguns.. they are the best but, I'm a Red guy


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

paddler said:


> It amazes me that aftermarket choke tubes even exist. There is no magic. As Bob said, it's all hype. They call them different names made up by the marketing department, but they all must have some degree of constriction. Factory tubes are all available in CYL, SK, IC, Mod, IM and F, which vary in increments of .005"-.010" constriction. If you can't find one of those that works for you, no aftermarket will either. Most will do well with their factory IC tube. Skeet tubes don't typically come with the gun, but they're worth considering.


Here's an example of what I was talking about. Just got back from Canada hunting geese. Twenty gauge Benelli M2, 2 3/4", 3/4 ounce Federal 4s at 1425FPS, Cylinder tube, as shown in the photo. On the last day we had 13 birds down when the cloud cover went away and the birds started flaring from the blind shadows. I wanted to try my IC tube to help with a bit longer shots, but it was lost. I finished up with straight cylinder and ordered a replacement tube this morning from MGW. $28 for the Benelli Armi Crio flush mount. Don't understand why people regard aftermarket as anything special.


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

paddler said:


> Here's an example of what I was talking about. Just got back from Canada hunting geese. Twenty gauge Benelli M2, 2 3/4", 3/4 ounce Federal 4s at 1425FPS, Cylinder tube, as shown in the photo. On the last day we had 13 birds down when the cloud cover went away and the birds started flaring from the blind shadows. I wanted to try my IC tube to help with a bit longer shots, but it was lost. I finished up with straight cylinder and ordered a replacement tube this morning from MGW. $28 for the Benelli Armi Crio flush mount. Don't understand why people regard aftermarket as anything special.
> View attachment 125081


I don't understand it either. I think the trend started with Patternmaster, they might be great chokes but they aren't necessary in my opinion. Then the ammo manufacturers picked up on it and now every time the introduce a new gimmick shell they will also introduce a new choke tube to go along with it......some of the aftermarket chokes might produce slightly better patterns but it's 90% marketing in my opinion. End of the day, the old school shells with factory chokes will kill birds and the fancy new shells with fancy chokes will kill birds too, one of them just costs more.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

I'd estimate the improvement in patterns at 100% marketing hype. That's why the aftermarket chokes don't use standard nomenclature, but stuff like "Close Range", "Mid Range", etc. Interesting that Trulock recommends Cyl for shots averaging 30 yards. Maybe I'm on to something. I'd say they're the best option out to 35.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Rebuttal @ 3:30pm lol


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

JerryH said:


> Rebuttal @ 3:30pm lol


Breasting geese and waiting.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

paddler said:


> Here's an example of what I was talking about. Just got back from Canada hunting geese. Twenty gauge Benelli M2, 2 3/4", 3/4 ounce Federal 4s at 1425FPS, Cylinder tube, as shown in the photo. On the last day we had 13 birds down when the cloud cover went away and the birds started flaring from the blind shadows. I wanted to try my IC tube to help with a bit longer shots, but it was lost. I finished up with straight cylinder and ordered a replacement tube this morning from MGW. $28 for the Benelli Armi Crio flush mount. Don't understand why people regard aftermarket as anything special.
> View attachment 125081


I see your 8 and raise you 52.

So anyone that has hunted with you knows you don't really care to pull the trigger at all. Your happy to paddle 7 miles and just enjoy the day away from the office. I've hunted with you and know that if the bird is not hanging on the end of your barrel you wont shoot. So your style of hunting a cylinder choke works great. For you. You wont take a 35 - 40 yard shot. I have a patterning board you can barrow. With out a little experimentation I wouldn't throw out a blanket statement that cylinder and skeet chokes are all you need. They don't work for everyone. There is aftermarket chokes for good reason. They work. The aftermarket choke industry is thriving.

The Snows took a beating with the Cremator chokes I bought this last trip. The long range with its (listed) .587 constriction worked great with steel #3's and bismuth #4's.

We all know you love to argue and wont listen so lets play!

P.S. Are we still trading the case of #2's for a case of #4's?

P.S.S. I have a factory I/C choke I would of gave you. But its nice to see you crack open the wallet lol


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

JerryH said:


> I see your 8 and raise you 52.
> 
> So anyone that has hunted with you knows you don't really care to pull the trigger at all. Your happy to paddle 7 miles and just enjoy the day away from the office. I've hunted with you and know that if the bird is not hanging on the end of your barrel you wont shoot. So your style of hunting a cylinder choke works great. For you. You wont take a 35 - 40 yard shot. I have a patterning board you can barrow. With out a little experimentation I wouldn't throw out a blanket statement that cylinder and skeet chokes are all you need. They don't work for everyone. There is aftermarket chokes for good reason. They work. The aftermarket choke industry is thriving.
> 
> ...


Okay, I'll play. First, some history. William Pape, of Newcastle, England is generally credited with inventing choke, in 1875. Before that time, all guns were straight cylinder. In 1877, James Purdey offered a 50 guinea prize for pigeon shooting. They compared cylinder guns to choke guns, with pigeons being released at 30 yards and 40 yards. At 30 yards rise, the cylinder chokes won 28 to 26. At 40 yards the choke guns won 19 to 13. So, out to 30 yards cylinder was better. But this was with lead shot, not steel, and the ranges were the release point, the actual range at which the birds were shot was probably further because pigeons typically fly away, not toward the shooters.

Most guys overestimate the ranges at which they shoot birds and overchoke their guns. Trulock says Cylinder generally throws an IC pattern with steel shot and most experts think that IC is the best all around choke for field use. Bob Brister, a very well respected writer, said that he regards Full choke as one that really is for experts. I recommend giving a factory Cylinder choke tube a try. It seems crazy, I know, but it works.

I will so take a 35 yard shot. I think I've even taken a 40 yard shot or two in the last 20 years. I do like to shoot them close, though. And I don't judge my time hunting by how many birds I kill, but enjoy the entire experience. And I typically shoot only what I want to eat, although it was so slow the other day I killed a gadwall. And I like working hard for my birds, I see it as a manifestation of what Theodore Roosevelt termed "The Strenuous Life". Got no problem with that.

Have you patterned the Cremator vs your factory IC and M tubes with steel? I think we should do that someday.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

I forgot about stubborn lol


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

JerryH said:


> I forgot about stubborn lol


You're not done playing, are you? I've always found the subject of chokes interesting. Knowing the history helps put things into perspective. As Randy Wakeman says, there really isn't anything revolutionary out there, despite the marketing.

One of the most interesting developments in chokes was used by the Russian Olympic skeet team. It was called a jug choke, and actually threw larger patterns than CYL.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I used the factory Modified tube again today with Kent Fasteel 3" #2's in the 20 gauge. I'm really liking that combination. Stones birds dead out to 45 yards, maybe further. Have I told you guys how much I love the 20 gauge?:mrgreen: Fast becoming my favorite shotgun!


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

This topic reminds of when I was a kid. I hated broccoli. I hated it but I never tried it. Then I tasted it and I thought man what have I been missing.


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## JerryH (Jun 17, 2014)

Fowlmouth said:


> I used the factory Modified tube again today with Kent Fasteel 3" #2's in the 20 gauge. I'm really liking that combination. Stones birds dead out to 45 yards, maybe further. Have I told you guys how much I love the 20 gauge?:mrgreen: Fast becoming my favorite shotgun!


What I have found is the 20 is so snappy and quick pointing. I shoot a 20 better than a 12. After shooting a 20 or 28 for a while a 12 feels like a heavy club.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

JerryH said:


> What I have found is the 20 is so snappy and quick pointing. I shoot a 20 better than a 12. After shooting a 20 or 28 for a while a 12 feels like a heavy club.


It's crazy and makes no sense to me, but I shoot the 20 so much better than any of my 12's. Still can't believe I waited this long to own one. I am ready to smash some geese with it now.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Wait till you try a cylinder choke tube, Rob. I predict it will be revelation.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

paddler said:


> Wait till you try a cylinder choke tube, Rob. I predict it will be revelation.


When I shoot 3" #4's I have been using the Kicks High Flyer IC. Most of those shots are within 20 yards. I will have to pick up a cylinder tube and give it a shot.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Fowlmouth said:


> When I shoot 3" #4's I have been using the Kicks High Flyer IC. Most of those shots are within 20 yards. I will have to pick up a cylinder tube and give it a shot.


I think you'll like it a lot.


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

paddler said:


> And I typically shoot only what I want to eat, although it was so slow the other day I killed a gadwall.


:shock::shock:Times must have been tough man!

I really enjoyed the history lesson though, I didn't realize that shotguns went unchoked until that late in history. Does that mean when they were doing the driven pheasant shoots in the Victorian era they were shooting those high birds with cylinder chokes? Crazy!

I personally prefer a factory mod, which is like shooting close to full with steel. I don't consider myself an expert shot by any means but I find that I will usually either stone a bird dead or miss it completely, I hate knowing that I hit a bird and watching it fly off wounded.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Pumpgunner said:


> :shock::shock:Times must have been tough man!
> 
> I really enjoyed the history lesson though, I didn't realize that shotguns went unchoked until that late in history. Does that mean when they were doing the driven pheasant shoots in the Victorian era they were shooting those high birds with cylinder chokes? Crazy!
> 
> I personally prefer a factory mod, which is like shooting close to full with steel. I don't consider myself an expert shot by any means but I find that I will usually either stone a bird dead or miss it completely, I hate knowing that I hit a bird and watching it fly off wounded.


Yep, it was a slow day. So slow that the gad was one of only two birds that came in range. I'd missed a nice pintail drake just prior, so I took my frustration out on that gaddie. Didn't even feel bad.

I've heard that opinion before, but am not sure shooting full choke results in fewer cripples. You should give straight cylinder a try, or at least shoot it at a patterning board from the usual distance at which you typically shoot birds.

I use open chokes because it give me a better chance of killing birds. Jerry likes tighter chokes, but he's a much better shot than I. I have natural monovision, normal sight in my right eye, near sighted in my left. So, I shoot ducks with my right eye and repair lacerations with my left. But that also means my depth perception isn't very good. Combine that with being right handed, left eye dominant and not being able to close my left eye alone means any bird I kill is quite unlucky. These limitations and the fact that I hate crippling birds is why I'm conservative with my shot selections.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I shot my first gadwall of the season yesterday. Pretty birds, but they are not my favorite to eat. Oh well, the dogs will get a treat. I missed a greenhead yesterday at 25 yards, it was the only duck I missed all day. Still can't figure out how he didn't fall, but I didn't so much as pull a feather off him.:-x


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

Here's a question: Why don't manufacturers make extended factory tubes? I would rather have an extended tube over a flush tube any day. They are so much easier to swap out.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Fowlmouth said:


> Here's a question: Why don't manufacturers make extended factory tubes? I would rather have an extended tube over a flush tube any day. They are so much easier to swap out.


They make them, but offer them only as accessories. I bought a 12 gauge Beretta SP I used but in perfect condition. The guy had only shot it a few times at clays and bought extended F and IM tubes for it. Beretta calls them "Victory" tubes. The flush mount tubes I'm sure are cheaper to make, and hunters don't change tubes nearly as often as clays shooters.

Just screw in a CYL tube in and forget about it.


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