# Sportsman Wanted!! (Turkeys Northern Region)



## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

Hey guys, feel free to PM me if you're interested, in helping out!
Me and a couple other guys are concerned about the new proposals for the fall turkey hunt, we are still gathering information on there proposals, and also gathering facts, exact numbers etc.

It's hard to see a decline in turkey numbers based on there populations vary year to year. But I've seen a couple different areas, that used to have a lot of turkeys in the winter. Until somebody complained. These 100 or so birds would disperse into huntable public/private lands every spring. Problem is because of a complaint birds were removed and over time/harassment, old turkey lady feeding the turkeys stopped. The birds have since moved on. Leaving great spring turkey habitat. Void of the sounds of gobbles.

This is specifically for the areas in Utah from Ogden, North. The birds transplanted to my knowledge are sent down to the Northeastern/Central Utah regions, which is good to establish new flocks, but driving that far to hunt birds is unreasonable/especially for youth.

Here is a list of Some concerns

Transplanted out of the Area
Overharvest
Rimfire Rifles Vs. Tom flocks
Youth Opportunity

To my knowledge there hasn't hardly (1) been any habitat improvement projects to keep turkeys out of towns, and out of the public eye.

If you have a Rimfire rifle hunt & even 3 tags and are in the right area you could really put a hurting on Tom flocks, that would be huntable during the coming spring season.

More turkeys= More landowners willing to give permission=More youth/Old Guys/Skinny guys/fat guys excited about the turkey hunting opportunity.

This is all poorly written, and I'm just trying to get the word spread we will be going to the Northern Region RAC meeting this coming May and voicing our concerns, and the more the merrier!!!

Suggesting
No Fall Season Tom Harvest/or Limited Harvest
More habitat projects to keep birds out of towns during winter months
No Rimfire Hunting-Safety concerns close to towns
Keeping Youth Opportunity Easily available
Keep More turkeys local/Less long distance transplants.

Thanks Guys!!


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

This sounds to me like your wanting to keep the birds in your neck of the woods, and your not willing to travel over 50 miles to hunt. The DWR will do what they want to do. 

If there are more birds in an area (winter months) than the area can take for habitat reasons, why not trap and move the birds to other areas? Just my 2 cents.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

katorade said:


> Hey guys, feel free to PM me if you're interested, in helping out!
> Me and a couple other guys are concerned about the new proposals for the fall turkey hunt, we are still gathering information on there proposals, and also gathering facts, exact numbers etc.
> 
> It's hard to see a decline in turkey numbers based on there populations vary year to year. But I've seen a couple different areas, that used to have a lot of turkeys in the winter. Until somebody complained. These 100 or so birds would disperse into huntable public/private lands every spring. Problem is because of a complaint birds were removed and over time/harassment, old turkey lady feeding the turkeys stopped. The birds have since moved on. Leaving great spring turkey habitat. Void of the sounds of gobbles.
> ...


I agree with the your concerns about rimfire rifles. I have already drafted a letter to send to rac members. If a guy has a couple kids and all have 3 tags, you could wipe out a flock of toms in an area really quickly with a rimfire rifle capable of shooting out to 300 yards.

Thoughts on your other ideas:
1- There is already limited harvest in the fall and I am OK with some fall harvest. If they are planning to triple the fall harvest, that is too much IMO.
2- Already good youth opportunities, I would not oppose more opportunities for youth. 
3- IMO, nothing you can do to keep birds out of towns. They are going to go where they go.
4- They remove turkeys from lots of areas in central and southern Utah including areas that I hunt, they are not picking on just Ogden. I would rather see them trap and move birds than kill them, but they almost always keep the release location secret. Why not publish where they move them.

IMO, our best bet it to focus on one or two issues and contact rac members. No rimfires is going to be what I take on. I don't think asking them to no longer transplant birds is feasible and will end up in landowners killing the turkeys instead of getting them moves.


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## crimson obsession (Sep 7, 2008)

The only one of your suggestions I agree with is the Rimfire hunting. Most of your other points/suggestions seem a little self served in my opinion, no offense intended. I live and primarily hunt in the northern Utah area and there are numerous areas I have options on hunting turkeys within a 30 to 50 minute drive. I can think of 4 “go to” areas right off the bat. 

Fall hunting in the few years they have been doing it has not shown great success for the limited amount of tags given, but I do agree Rimfire would put a dent in that. Not quite to the overharvesting point though in my opinion.

Youth hunting still has good opportunity, with the limited entry tag allotment and the General season youth only hunt. My opinion on the youth involvement lies strictly with us as adults. We need to be the driving force behind the engagement of these youth in hunting. Once you get most of these kids out and they hear their first Gobbler on the roost they are hooked!

Habitat enhancement only goes so far and it won’t help with the migrating turkey flocks into the city/residential areas. Once the snow hits the hills in the amounts we are used to the turkeys will show up in the cities no matter how great the habitat is.


I like the direction you are going with at least getting this out there and starting a conversation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

It would be a big mistake to allow rifles in the fall with 3 tags...

A limited number of fall tags (one per hunter) won't hurt anything.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Here is my letter. Copy or change a few works and send it out to rac memebers.

I am writing to express my opposition to using rimfire rifles on fall turkey hunts. I have been a turkey hunter in this state now for over 10 years. I have 4 children that have hunted turkeys with me a well. We hunt both the spring and fall hunts. The majority of the turkeys we take on fall hunts are located on or next to private lands. With the advent of rimfire cartridges that have 300+ yard ranges like the 17 WSM and 22 WMR, there is a significant likelihood of a stray bullet finding its way onto private property and hitting structures or livestock. Putting myself in the landowners place, I would not want these guns near my property and livestock. I fear this will only motivate more landowners to restrict access to their property.
These fall turkey areas are also usually wooded and a rimfire rifle poses a safety risk to hunters that are typically in camo when hunting with shotguns. I have been within 20 or 30 yards of other hunters and not known they are there. Hunters shooting with rifles from fence lines or roads I fear will not take the time to scan for head to toe camo hunters. If the fall hunt was statewide or not located in small pockets with multiple hunters chasing the same birds, I could see an argument for rimfires, but that is not the case. I will not be forces to wear hunter orange on my turkey hunt in the fall making taking a turkey with a shotgun even more challenging.
A third reason for not using rimfires is the potential to kill the majority of the mature toms in an area. Toms flock up together in the fall and if a hunter with a couple children or buddies, who all possess 3 tags, have the opportunity, they could kill a lot of mature toms really quickly. It will reduce the number of birds, but will also destroy the hunting opportunity in these areas in the spring. Hunters in the spring will not be taking birds and the problem of reducing birds in these areas in the fall will just perpetuate.
I would love to shoot 3 turkeys in the fall, however, I would give that up for an additional bird in the spring and I think the vast majority of sportsman feel the same way. Perhaps allow an additional bird in the spring located in the canyons that feed the high fall populations. If you are going allow more birds per hunter in the fall and keep the same harvest objective, you are only going to reduce opportunity for hunters. 
I ask you to oppose rimfire rifles on the fall turkey hunt. 
Link to the RAC members:
https://wildlife.utah.gov/rac-members.html


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

Okay so how does everyone feel on not allowing Tom harvest in the fall, because IMO they are going to increase the amount of fall tags rapidly in the years to come? How about we protect the Toms? During the harsh winter of 2016, if 3 tags were passed we could of wiped out a tom flock of 15-20 birds. Even without the help of rimfire rifles.

I'm not meaning to sound self served I'm just thinking of more high school kids that are growing up in my area having plenty of opportunity to find and hunt turkeys, because IMO there are less birds around then a few years ago, harsh winters have caused some of that.

I recently just drove over 200 miles to hunt turkeys, but I'd like to see more around home. But IMO the division won't move them around up here to good turkey habitat because they are not wanting to have to deal with the complaints as the birds migrate to there wintering areas.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

I just finished emailing one by one all of the chairs and vice chairs along with a handful of other people on the rac that I think could make a difference. I am also going to contact DWR upland game coordinator to express my concerns. If we sit here and talk about it and don't contact anybody, not much will be done, have to make your voice heard and not just on UWN.


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

Perfect! That's exactly what we need to do!

Thanks Toasty!

Thanks guys for your comments/opinions!


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## SCtransplant (Jul 31, 2015)

I am still not understanding why they don't up the bag limit for the spring? Fall turkey with a rifle? Where is the sport in that?


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

Some choose to use a shotgun, some will choose to use a rim fire rifle. Where is the sport in using a shotgun that has 100 pellets in each shot where only one needs to connect?


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## crimson obsession (Sep 7, 2008)

Here is my letter just sent off to the RAC. Feel free to comment away, I am curious to all the opinions. 


I am writing to express my opposition in one particular item in the new turkey recommendations. I am highly against the use of Rimfire rifles in the field when perusing turkeys. My main reason for this opposition is keyed in on safety. Nearly all of these areas that are currently open for Fall hunting lie in or near residential areas. Opening the use of Rimfire rifles in these areas can have devastating effects and collateral damage to landowners and sportsman alike. In many of these areas it is already difficult in obtaining landowner permission to hunt and I believe this may make it more difficult. The technology of these new Rimfire rifles now holds accurate results beyond 200 yards and the chances of a stray bullet travelling and causing damage at an unintended location increases. Along with this, all hunters are usually clad in camouflage and an accidental strike to a fellow hunter can result in death. I have been turkey hunting for close to 5 years now in Utah and I can’t recount how many times I have stumbled upon another hunter who was hidden to the eye until I darn near stepped on them. Along with this Rimfire accuracy at distances, I am worried at the lethal toll this could take out on these flocked up birds. In the Fall hunt it is not uncommon to see turkeys bunched up in flocks in excess of 100 birds. If you open this to Rimfire rifles and approve the 3 tag allotment per hunter (I will get into this later) a single hunter and his buddies can wipe out an entire mature breeding flock for the following Spring. 

I somewhat oppose the addition of two tags, to a total of 3 per hunter for the Fall hunt. If we are looking at ways to lower certain populations I think this can be handled in other ways, or at least options. I will list my opinion/recommendations below.
•	In opposition to 3 tags per hunter for Fall hunts I think we look into the idea of multiple tags for the Spring hunt instead.
o	Keep limited entry tags at 1 per person thru the draw.
o	Change General Season tag allotment to 2 tags per hunter.
o	Allow anyone to purchase a general season turkey tag, including those who drew a limited entry tag.
	Those who are successful in drawing a limited entry hunt can only obtain a TOTAL of 2 tags (i.e. 1 limited entry and 1 general season)
o	Allow unharvested Limited Entry Tags to “carry-over” into the General Season.

In my opinion, increasing the tag allotment in the Spring hunt will allow more harvest opportunities for sportsman but also decrease the chance of negatively affecting the breeding population for continued management. By the time the General season starts the majority of hens have already clutched and the Toms/Jakes that have been harvested have a good chance of being replaced by the new poults. If we rely on the Fall hunt for a potential massive decline in turkey population you are directly decreasing the amount of breeding eligible Toms/Jakes to make it to Spring.


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

crimson obsession said:


> Here is my letter just sent off to the RAC. Feel free to comment away, I am curious to all the opinions.
> 
> I am writing to express my opposition in one particular item in the new turkey recommendations. I am highly against the use of Rimfire rifles in the field when perusing turkeys. My main reason for this opposition is keyed in on safety. Nearly all of these areas that are currently open for Fall hunting lie in or near residential areas. Opening the use of Rimfire rifles in these areas can have devastating effects and collateral damage to landowners and sportsman alike. In many of these areas it is already difficult in obtaining landowner permission to hunt and I believe this may make it more difficult. The technology of these new Rimfire rifles now holds accurate results beyond 200 yards and the chances of a stray bullet travelling and causing damage at an unintended location increases. Along with this, all hunters are usually clad in camouflage and an accidental strike to a fellow hunter can result in death. I have been turkey hunting for close to 5 years now in Utah and I can't recount how many times I have stumbled upon another hunter who was hidden to the eye until I darn near stepped on them. Along with this Rimfire accuracy at distances, I am worried at the lethal toll this could take out on these flocked up birds. In the Fall hunt it is not uncommon to see turkeys bunched up in flocks in excess of 100 birds. If you open this to Rimfire rifles and approve the 3 tag allotment per hunter (I will get into this later) a single hunter and his buddies can wipe out an entire mature breeding flock for the following Spring.
> 
> ...


Spot on. Excellent points.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

In one breath, some of you are saying:

- Multiple fall tags and fall rimfire tags are a bad idea because people will kill too many toms.

And then in the next breath:

- Instead, please let me obtain two tags in the spring so I can kill more toms.

I don't quite see the logic there. My guess is that far more toms would get killed during the spring hunt with a two-bird limit than would be killed by a small handful of fall turkey hunters under the new rules. If we're worried about overharvest of toms, then we should limit their harvest across all seasons IMO.

I might be willing to support a measure to limit the amount of toms one could harvest during the fall season. However, I think such a measure would be difficult to implement and enforce. 

The only way I could think to do it would be for the division to release X amount of either sex tags and X amount of "non-bearded" turkey tags, then limit hunters to a maximum of 1 either sex tag, but allow them to purchase additional "non-bearded" tags (up to 3). But that would just be another complication to add to our already complicated rules, and I'm not sure what the practical effect of it would be either.

Does anyone know what percentage of the current fall harvest is toms/hens?


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

Clarq said:


> In one breath, some of you are saying:
> 
> - Multiple fall tags and fall rimfire tags are a bad idea because people will kill too many toms.
> 
> ...


The difference is that with rimfire and 3 tags per hunter in these little fall hunt area boundaries, you could kill off the majority of the toms in a specific drainage and significantly impact the spring hunt and perhaps overall turkey populations.

I probably need to look it up again but the GS turkey season has about 30-35% success, much lower than success percentage of fall hunts. A 2nd tag would have a lower harvest percentage. Let's say 5K hunters at 20% success for 2nd tag, that is only another 1000 male turkeys for the state.

The state can handle 1K turkeys with 35K turkeys, but some drainages may not be able to handle a 20 tom harvest.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

toasty said:


> The difference is that with rimfire and 3 tags per hunter in these little fall hunt area boundaries, you could kill off the majority of the toms in a specific drainage and significantly impact the spring hunt and perhaps overall turkey populations.


Isn't the whole point of the fall hunt to reduce turkey populations?

The only possible remedy to this problem that I could see would be to go Option 2 style on the fall tags, and sell them for one specific area only. Then the division would have some pretty strict control on the numbers in each flock. I'm not sure hunters want that, though...



toasty said:


> I probably need to look it up again but the GS turkey season has about 30-35% success, much lower than success percentage of fall hunts. A 2nd tag would have a lower harvest percentage. Let's say 5K hunters at 20% success for 2nd tag, that is only another 1000 male turkeys for the state.
> 
> The state can handle 1K turkeys with 35K turkeys, but some drainages may not be able to handle a 20 tom harvest.


I don't disagree with that, but I do disagree with those (including at least two of the above who have written letters to the RAC/board) who say that allowing a 2nd bird to be harvested in the spring would provide an effective means of population control. IMO, to remove problem birds, you need to go to the area where they're causing problems, when they're causing problems, and target them accordingly. Fall hunts are a good way to do that. The idea of allowing someone to buy 2 tags during the spring season is an entirely separate issue.

One thing is for sure, these proposed regulations do open up a can of worms (or two, or three).


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## crimson obsession (Sep 7, 2008)

Option 2 for this Fall hunt already exists. There are specified areas for these tags, and they are limited at best. Breaking these areas down to even more specified numbers would be a mess.

The idea of more Spring tags opens up the potential for more harvest and virtually eliminates the potential of overharvest in the Fall when they are more grouped up. Plain and simple, Turkeys in the Fall are not that difficult to hunt. In most instances, you find the flock, set up between feed and roost, and then pick your bird when they walk by. Open this up to Rimfire and you are turning hunting into target practice. I understand the point here is to drop the populations, but there is a difference in a sloping trend and a dropoff.


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## taxidermist (Sep 11, 2007)

Where is the NWTF, and what is there voice? Come on people for He!! sake. 

Why don't we voice an opinion on trapping the birds, and move them to other areas of the State? This could be accomplished very easily by Volunteers, Dedicated Hunters, etc. 

I am offering my time, and use of my recourses to help in this effort. 

In the 90's I was a committee member for the Utah County Chapter NWTF. I participated in the trapping, relocation of many birds. 

Don't kill the birds off because they have become a problem to Landowners. Let's move them to other areas.


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

taxidermist said:


> Where is the NWTF, and what is there voice?


Lots are being vocal about it. I saw an email chain from one of the southern chapters.

I agree with you that the Division ought to get the NWTF volunteers involved to trap and relocate. They've moved a lot this winter from some locations...


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

So I talked to Jason Robinson, the upland game coordinator for the DWR today. Great guy, and I learned a little bit more about the changes they are proposing. The 3 tags are a way to limit on the number of tags one person can have in the fall. Right now, a person can have unlimited number of tags if they get fall GS hunt, landowner, and depredation hunts. The proposal would limit the tags to 3 per person. I may have misunderstood, but I do not believe this will allow someone to buy 3 GS fall hunt tags. I think this is being instituted to prevent full on slaughter of flocks. After talking with him, I think this is a good thing and will protect turkeys and require more of them to be trapped.

The addition of rimfires is the idea of the DWR, he talked about how it is done in CO or WY and wouldn't change the harvest etc. He said we have grouse hunters and deer hunters together in the hills all fall. They want hens killed in the fall hunt and I suggested he will get even fewer hens harvested with rimfire due the broader range. What he did not address and could not address is the safety issue with using rimfires on these small little tracks of land. I listened and told him how I will still not support rimfire due to the safety issues alone. He was fine with my opposition and encouraged me to be at a rac meetings which I will be. If they have a large number of rac and public opposition to rimfires, they will take it off of the table.

On a side note, I have had many rac members email me back. The majority of them also oppose rimfires on the fall hunt. If we can a few more guys sending emails and representing teh public at the rac meeting, I really think we can remove rimfires. Rac meetings start next week and this is the RAC meetings where they discuss the turkey changes. I will be at the central RAC on May 1st. If there is anyone else that can discuss the issue at any of the other rac meetings that would help the cause.


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

toasty said:


> He said we have grouse hunters and deer hunters together in the hills all fall.


The difference is that no grouse hunters are hiding behind deer decoys and making deer calls in the fall....


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

hawglips said:


> The difference is that no grouse hunters are hiding behind deer decoys and making deer calls in the fall....


+1... add that to a 50 acre parcel that holds 150 birds with 3 guys try to get a crack at a turkey.


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## gdog (Sep 13, 2007)

toasty said:


> If we can a few more guys sending emails and representing teh public at the rac meeting, I really think we can remove rimfires. Rac meetings start next week and this is the RAC meetings where they discuss the turkey changes. I will be at the central RAC on May 1st. If there is anyone else that can discuss the issue at any of the other rac meetings that would help the cause.


Toasty...who specifically should we send emails to?


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## toasty (May 15, 2008)

RAC Members and DWR. Specifically, the chairs and anyone else you think might make a difference. I emailed most all of the sportman on the rac, but some of the best responses were from guys I didn't expect to care like forestry, blm, and others.

Here is a list of their email addresses. https://wildlife.utah.gov/rac-members.html

Here is Jason Robinson's email who is the head of the upland game at the DWR, I think he and his team are the guys directly asking for the rimfire regulation. email: [email protected]


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## hawglips (Aug 23, 2013)

Jason and the Worwood brothers running the UT NWTF are pushing hard to get the three tags and rifle regs implemented. So if anyone is wanting to be heard on the issue time is running out.


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## katorade (Sep 23, 2007)

I ended up going to the RAC and voicing my opinion. They were torn on the rimfire but majority ended up wanting to give it a try.


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