# Number 2's for GWT?



## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Don't know how many saw "Hooked on Utah" last night. but they did a show on hunting the south shore of the GSL for GWT. Winterton, the host, recommended 3" #2's for teal. Doesn't make much sense to me, as 4's have plenty of energy at reasonable ranges and 50% higher pattern density. In fact, 4's are my favorite shot size for even large ducks. Thoughts?

They also seemed to loop the footage quite a bit. Anybody notice?


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## Wind In His Hair (Dec 31, 2009)

Didn't see it, but I agree that #2 would not be my go-to load if lots of teal are in the area. Those little buggers are so fast and agile, I would think it would be more beneficial to have the higher pellet count rather than more energy. According to a pellet count chart I just looked at, a 1 1/4 oz load of #2 will have 155 pellets, versus 239 in a #4. 84 pellets seems like a pretty significant difference to me. I just bought a box of Kent TealSteel to test out, 3" 1 1/4 oz. #5. If it throws a good pattern, I may give them a try on some areas that produce a lot of teal for me. I usually end up getting the really small ones that still have egg on their face anyways.


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## JuniorPre 360 (Feb 22, 2012)

I use #2's on a full choke for waterfowl no matter what. I do kind of mess up teal when I hit them, but I only shoot at birds either swimming in the decoys or right before their feet hit the water.


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## izzydog (Jan 18, 2008)

I'm pretty sure Gary Winterton would be my last source for any hunting info. He is usually somewhere way "south of Scipio" as he likes to say.


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## rjefre (Sep 8, 2007)

#4 shot is very deadly on pretty much everything except long range shooting at big birds (like geese). I personally see no reason to use #2 shot for teal.
R


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

rjefre said:


> #4 shot is very deadly on pretty much everything except long range shooting at big birds (like geese). I personally see no reason to use #2 shot for teal.
> R


Yep. The smaller the game, the less energy per pellet is required, while the importance of pattern density increases. I shot this one pretty close yesterday, maybe too close, as it hit the ice 12 yards from my pad. This is with Experts, 1 1/16 ounce 4's and a skeet choke (actually .004"):










I think 2's give you too many holes in your pattern a teal can slip through. For GWT, 5's may be the perfect size. Number 4's are overkill, 6's may run out of energy beyond 30 yards.


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## Pumpgunner (Jan 12, 2010)

Best teal load I've ever shot is 2 3/4" Hevi-metal #4's, that's #4 steel and #7 1/2 Hevishot in a duplex load. Gives you a nice dense pattern. It's expensive, I found a few boxes for $14 at cal ranch once and bought them out. Rio makes a #5 steel load that Sportsman's carries that's pretty good for teal too.


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## outdoorser (Jan 14, 2013)

Yeah I saw Hooked on Utah saturday night.
Personally, I wouldn't put much trust in the tips that Garry winterton offers.
For one thing, he is usually pushing certain brands and obviously, since sportsman warehouse is one of the shows main sponsors, all he does is say "you can pick this (or these) up at sportsmans warehouse. Now I understand that this is just the way things are, but this show seems to do it more than most. 
But the thing I don't understand is why they would be pushing the cheapest waterfowl load available? Xperts.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Pumpgunner said:


> Best teal load I've ever shot is 2 3/4" Hevi-metal #4's, that's #4 steel and #7 1/2 Hevishot in a duplex load. Gives you a nice dense pattern. It's expensive, I found a few boxes for $14 at cal ranch once and bought them out. Rio makes a #5 steel load that Sportsman's carries that's pretty good for teal too.


You must be rich if you're shooting $14/box ammo at teal.



outdoorser said:


> Yeah I saw Hooked on Utah saturday night.
> Personally, I wouldn't put much trust in the tips that Garry winterton offers.
> For one thing, he is usually pushing certain brands and obviously, since sportsman warehouse is one of the shows main sponsors, all he does is say "you can pick this (or these) up at sportsmans warehouse. Now I understand that this is just the way things are, but this show seems to do it more than most.
> But the thing I don't understand is why they would be pushing the cheapest waterfowl load available? Xperts.


I have never had a problem with Xperts, the 2 3/4" 4's are deadly for ducks over decoys, out to at least 40 yards. I bought a ~7 cases few years ago when Cabelas sold them for $62/case delivered.

I have accumulated a bunch of the 20 gauge Xpert 6's, too. Just my speed at $7/box, and great to ~30 yards. I don't think I'll ever shoot all the ammo in the basement.


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## richard rouleau (Apr 12, 2008)

what wrong with shooting 2 at teal I shot 2 at teal kill them stone dead I even shot number one at teal and kill them


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

I wouldn't pay much attention to that show. I do like shooting xpert 3 inch 2's at everything, just the best all around for me with ducks and geese without having to change out loads and it won't break the bank. If I were just going on a teal hunt though, 4's would be ideal.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

who in the hell listen to that *** any was. he cant tell a hen mallard from a hen wigeon. Im mean come on there a big difference in the two. Im suprised he has not been busted yet.by the way his show sucks.he needs to stick with fishing only.sent eh dont know anything about hunting.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

"Dude" "Dude you totally stoned it" "Dude it's a toad" "Dude what a hog" .................
Enough said....................-O,-


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## duckkillerclyde (Mar 26, 2012)

3" xpert 1 1/16 oz #2 mod factory Benelli choke.

Caught the bird out of the corner of my eye. Shot it at about ten yards in the air. This bird was NOT shot on the water.


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## Dunkem (May 8, 2012)

Dont think he suffered much:grin:


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

whoa... so much for holding off until they are NOT so close eh? :shock:


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

That reminds me of a shot I saw my grandpa make in the 70's with lead shot days. A pair of mallards flew by us, we both shot. I knocked mine down the first shot (accident of course) and my grandpa who rarely missed did not hit his. His kept flying towards us but at a slight angle to his left, he muttered a few cuss words then shot again and by that time the drake was closer than we thought. However to our surprise when we picked up the bird there was nary a pellet in it's body. He had blown off the front half of the drakes head from right behind the eye balls forward, taking off the beak and half the head. Dangdest shot I ever saw in the air.


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## outdoorser (Jan 14, 2013)

duckkillerclyde said:


> 3" xpert 1 1/16 oz #2 mod factory Benelli choke.
> 
> Caught the bird out of the corner of my eye. Shot it at about ten yards in the air. This bird was NOT shot on the water.


Holy Mother!!


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

richard rouleau said:


> what wrong with shooting 2 at teal I shot 2 at teal kill them stone dead I even shot number one at teal and kill them


Nothing wrong I suppose. Back in the lead shot days I watched my dad kill a snow goose at about 40 yards with #9 lead shot. We always shot #9 for teal in lead and a snow goose just happened to get lost and found our decoys. Made a dang good gumbo.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

richard rouleau said:


> what wrong with shooting 2 at teal I shot 2 at teal kill them stone dead I even shot number one at teal and kill them


Shot size determines pattern density. The larger your shot, the lower the pattern density. It's important to match shot size and pattern density to the size of the intended quarry. Increasing the shot size increases retained energy and therefore penetration. For geese, you can sacrifice pattern density because the vital area is larger.

There's really no sense in using larger shot than necessary to provide adequate penetration and therefore clean kills at the usual ranges game is taken. In this case, I'm pretty sure that #2's will kill GWT to at least 60 yards. But, at 60 yards, your pattern probably has large enough holes to drive a truck through. Smaller shot, like 4's, 5's and 6's, will kill teal cleanly to at least 30 yards for 6's, probably 35-40 yards, and at least 45-50 yards for 4's. It's just a question of balance.

Here's some data, pellets per ounce:

1- 103

2- 125

3- 154

4- 191

5- 244

6- 317

I don't have retained energy values for the different shot sizes. But, 4's will cleanly kill big ducks to 45 yards. IMO, perhaps if you're shooting at longer ranges, 5's or maybe 4's may be needed for GWT. Inside 35 yards, 6's are probably the best all around choice. Note that 6's have triple the pattern density of 1's. Larger shot will unnecessarily increase misses and cripples.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I dont care what size of shot or shell you are shooting. when you get teal in 10 yards your going to blow them up if you hit them in the body.I have killed teal 10 yards and not blown them up with 3inch number 2


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Inside 20, or even 25 yards, neither the game or the load matters. I've stoned geese with #6's at 25 yards The question I asked is whether #2's are the optimum shot size for GWT. I couldn't tell what range those guys were shooting, but just took exception to the recommendations Winterton made. I'm guessing they crippled or missed birds that would have been cleanly taken had they been using smaller shot. Again, it's a question of balancing your shot size and pattern density for your intended game. They reminded me of an airboat hunt I went on where they were all shooting 3 1/2" #2's with Patternmaster chokes for teal. Really dumb.


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

who in the wide world of sports gives a ding if someone shoots #2's at teel? I mean _really_? so what! what the heck happens if they are hanging outside the blocks @ >40 all day? yer set up perfect! big deal if someone shoot's em backpeadling @ <30 with em, they're still dead...

granted, da*n few of us shoot so very well to actually make the theory of consistent high density patterns a reality at the given ranges on given sized game for given sized pellet for given retained energy to properly kill cleanly... holy crap... applying practical use to paddlers -in a politically paper perfect world- postings/theory, id have to pack 27 different loads, from 6 different manufacturers, in 3 different gauges and be changing shells with every flock that passed by.... PHOEY!

gimme my 12ga 3"#3's for ducks all day long... in close and extended

and gimme my 10Ga 1 5/8oz BBB for the chin strap and honking varietys...

Dustin, it comes down to this. shoot what you can find in your budget, consume what you kill, clean up the marsh after one's self after, and have a good time while doing so.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

The best shell to use on teal is the one you have in your gun.

I like to shoot #2s for the most part. And when small birds come in, I just give them a little more distance before I shoot. Problem solved in my eyes.


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## ntrl_brn_rebel (Sep 7, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> I dont care what size of shot or shell you are shooting. when you get teal in 10 yards your going to blow them up if you hit them in the body.I have killed teal 10 yards and not blown them up with 3inch number 2


Dear Dustin-

You are confusing me...

Your friend,

Reb

PS- i agree with you on that Gary guy...he is a jackwagon....


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Longgun said:


> who in the wide world of sports gives a ding if someone shoots #2's at teel? I mean _really_? so what! what the heck happens if they are hanging outside the blocks @ >40 all day? yer set up perfect! big deal if someone shoot's em backpeadling @ <30 with em, they're still dead...
> 
> granted, da*n few of us shoot so very well to actually make the theory of consistent high density patterns a reality at the given ranges on given sized game for given sized pellet for given retained energy to properly kill cleanly... holy crap... applying practical use to paddlers -in a politically paper perfect world- postings/theory, id have to pack 27 different loads, from 6 different manufacturers, in 3 different gauges and be changing shells with every flock that passed by.... PHOEY!
> 
> ...


I'm data driven. In this case, the only ducks out there were GWT. Shooting 2's at GWT puts you at a disadvantage for any bird under ~50 yards. If you happen to get a #2 into the vitals of a GWT beyond 50 yards, you may very well kill it. But doing so is unlikely because your pattern density is low, so good luck with that. My point is that ballistics, pattern density, penetration, etc, are all measurable quantities. If you can measure something, you can improve it. Or you can just guess, skyblast, etc. It's up to you. I watched a guy shoot half a box the other day shooting at ducks that were clearly out of range. At one point he emptied his gun at a drake shoveler at 80 yards. He went home empty handed, of course, and his results were entirely predictable.

You can do whatever you like out there, so long as it's legal. I'm trying to help guys think about how they can improve their success.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

ntrl_brn_rebel said:


> Dear Dustin-
> 
> You are confusing me...
> 
> ...


what confusing on my post ?

Your friend dkhntrdstn.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Longgun said:


> who in the wide world of sports gives a ding if someone shoots #2's at teel? I mean _really_? so what! what the heck happens if they are hanging outside the blocks @ >40 all day? yer set up perfect! big deal if someone shoot's em backpeadling @ <30 with em, they're still dead...
> 
> granted, da*n few of us shoot so very well to actually make the theory of consistent high density patterns a reality at the given ranges on given sized game for given sized pellet for given retained energy to properly kill cleanly... holy crap... applying practical use to paddlers -in a politically paper perfect world- postings/theory, id have to pack 27 different loads, from 6 different manufacturers, in 3 different gauges and be changing shells with every flock that passed by.... PHOEY!
> 
> ...


John I stay with the 3inch xperts number two for ducks. they work and they kill birds with out a problem close or long range.:mrgreen:


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

paddler213 said:


> *I'm data driven.* In this case, the only ducks out there were GWT. Shooting 2's at GWT puts you at a disadvantage for any bird under ~50 yards. *If you happen to get a #2 into the vitals of a GWT beyond 50 yards, you may very well kill it. But doing so is unlikely because your pattern density is low, so good luck with that.* My point is that ballistics, pattern density, penetration, etc, are all measurable quantities. If you can measure something, you can improve it. Or you can just guess, skyblast, etc. It's up to you. I watched a guy shoot half a box the other day shooting at ducks that were clearly out of range. At one point he emptied his gun at a drake shoveler at 80 yards. He went home empty handed, of course, and his results were entirely predictable.
> 
> You can do whatever you like out there, so long as it's legal. I'm trying to help guys think about how they can improve their success.


Well, *THATS* one way of putting it...

*My results with 3' #3's and a full choke contradict your paper data entierly. *


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## Longgun (Sep 7, 2007)

dkhntrdstn said:


> John I stay with the 3inch xperts number two for ducks. they work and they kill birds with out a problem close or long range.:mrgreen:


I did that late last year and did fine also. This year, on the few times we have made it out for ducks, ive shot the 3"#3's and have been pleasantly surprised with the results.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

I shoot 3" #2's for everything, I also use a long range (full) choke. The few times a season I use my O/U I shoot 2 3/4" #6's. I picked up a box of Xpert 2 3/4" #7's and shot some mallards and teal at 25 yards, it worked okay. I do like the amount of pellets you get in the smaller shot size.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

Longgun said:


> I did that late last year and did fine also. This year, on the few times we have made it out for ducks, ive shot the 3"#3's and have been pleasantly surprised with the results.


i could never find 3 shot this year.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

I think #4's are maybe the best all around shot size for ducks. There's no point in using shot that has enough energy to penetrate the vitals beyond the range at which your pattern density is high enough to ensure vital area hits at that range. Bob Brister literally wrote the book on shotgunning waterfowl. His research dates to the days of lead shot. He concluded that lead #5's were the best shot size for mallards. That translates to #3's in steel. But, that's for mallards, which are at almost four times the size of GWT, with a correspondingly larger vital area.

I use factory chokes only, typically Skeet in the bottom barrel and IC in the top tube. There have been times when I have wanted more choke and larger shot. I was out a couple of days ago, and took my 20 gauge M2 because it was supposed to snow. I had a Skeet tube with Xpert 6's in when some pintails came through. I think they were about 40, maybe 45 yards out. I probably could have killed them with 4's in a 12 gauge with an IC choke. I held off because I don't feel comfortable over 30 yards with 6's. A better choice for that day would have been the IC tube with 4's. Hindsight is 20/20. OTOH, they weren't fully committed, and I really like to only shoot them when their feet are down. Fooling them is what I really enjoy the most.


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## Clarq (Jul 21, 2011)

paddler213 said:


> I think #4's are maybe the best all around shot size for ducks. There's no point in using shot that has enough energy to penetrate the vitals beyond the range at which your pattern density is high enough to ensure vital area hits at that range. Bob Brister literally wrote the book on shotgunning waterfowl. His research dates to the days of lead shot. He concluded that lead #5's were the best shot size for mallards. That translates to #3's in steel. But, that's for mallards, which are at almost four times the size of GWT, with a correspondingly larger vital area.
> 
> I use factory chokes only, typically Skeet in the bottom barrel and IC in the top tube. There have been times when I have wanted more choke and larger shot. I was out a couple of days ago, and took my 20 gauge M2 because it was supposed to snow. I had a Skeet tube with Xpert 6's in when some pintails came through. I think they were about 40, maybe 45 yards out. I probably could have killed them with 4's in a 12 gauge with an IC choke. I held off because I don't feel comfortable over 30 yards with 6's. A better choice for that day would have been the IC tube with 4's. Hindsight is 20/20. OTOH, they weren't fully committed, and I really like to only shoot them when their feet are down. Fooling them is what I really enjoy the most.


I'm starting to lean toward smaller sizes as well. I bought a bunch of 3 1/2" #2's because I found a good deal on them.

The Scaup I shot at 15 yards with that load thought it was overkill.

In my defense, I was pass-shooting and wasn't planning on shooting too many close birds.

I still like using them as a third shell though.


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## utahgolf (Sep 8, 2007)

how well does the 6 shot size work for you guys on really windy days? I slapped some 6 shot across the water on a real windy day and good luck holding that pattern past 15 yards. let alone a teal in a cross wind at 25 yards.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

utahgolf said:


> how well does the 6 shot size work for you guys on really windy days? I slapped some 6 shot across the water on a real windy day and good luck holding that pattern past 15 yards. let alone a teal in a cross wind at 25 yards.


I have had good success with the 6's. I'm still trying to figure out the 7 shot though.


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

utahgolf said:


> how well does the 6 shot size work for you guys on really windy days? I slapped some 6 shot across the water on a real windy day and good luck holding that pattern past 15 yards. let alone a teal in a cross wind at 25 yards.


I've only used it on calm days. Even so, I don't shoot beyond 30 yards with it, and 25 is better. I have heard of guys killing birds with 6's to 35 yards out of a 12 gauge, but all my 6's are either 20 or 28 gauge.



Fowlmouth said:


> I have had good success with the 6's. I'm still trying to figure out the 7 shot though.


I wouldn't bother with 7's. Even 6's are marginal except at close range under ideal conditions. And 6's have a high enough pellet count that any gain in that regard with 7's is not needed. It's often said that pattern density typically fails before individual pellet energy, and I think it's true. Steel 6's are the exception, IMO.


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## Bax* (Dec 14, 2008)

dkhntrdstn said:


> i could never find 3 shot this year.


This has been a hard year to find steel shot for me as well. The load I prefer to shoot has been non-existant.

I bought some junk loads last night at Sportsmans to see how they work on my teal hunt in a few days. Hopefully they work okay. -O,-


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## paddler (Jul 17, 2009)

Bax* said:


> This has been a hard year to find steel shot for me as well. The load I prefer to shoot has been non-existant.
> 
> I bought some junk loads last night at Sportsmans to see how they work on my teal hunt in a few days. Hopefully they work okay. -O,-


I bought some 20 gauge Xpert 6's a bit ago at the Centerville Wal Mart. They work great.


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## dkhntrdstn (Sep 7, 2007)

I seen fowlmouth kill a duck that was up there with 7 shot. i could not be leave what I seen. That duck did not know what hit it. I like the smaller shot to finish off any birds that need to be finished off on the water.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

I shoot 4's at everything. Doesn't matter if it's a swan or a teal, they fall outa the sky like a loaf of bread. Keep your shots under 40 yards and shoot an IC choke and you'll stone em every time.


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