# CPA Jeff... GOOF?!?



## Markthehunter88

LE success? I am pretty sure i watched Jeff shoot at a bull... goof I had the same tag you did last year. Not easy. How was it?


----------



## CPAjeff

Ah crap - now I have to relive that experience all over again!!

The hunt was incredible - that mountain is just a cool place during the fall. I hit a really good bull opening evening and never found him near Don's - first big game animal I have lost in 12 years of hunting big game animals.


----------



## Markthehunter88

how good was the hit? Sorry to open the wound. I am in pain myself... a buck i have been chasing for 4 years was shot and killed with just 30 min left of Utah muzzy hunt... I wanted to cry.


----------



## CPAjeff

Markthehunter88 said:


> how good was the hit? Sorry to open the wound. I am in pain myself... a buck i have been chasing for 4 years was shot and killed with just 30 min left of Utah muzzy hunt... I wanted to cry.


He was downhill, quartering away and the shot felt great. I heard the bullet hit, watched him fall down/tip over, get back up and go into the brush. I went down, found lots of blood and his tracks. Followed his tracks and blood until I lost both the blood and the tracks.

While I am totally disappointed that I lost a bull, I still had an incredible time and would highly recommend that hunt to anyone.


----------



## BigT

CPAjeff said:


> He was downhill, quartering away and the shot felt great. I heard the bullet hit, watched him fall down/tip over, get back up and go into the brush. I went down, found lots of blood and his tracks. Followed his tracks and blood until I lost both the blood and the tracks.
> 
> While I am totally disappointed that I lost a bull, I still had an incredible time and would highly recommend that hunt to anyone.


No.... It's a terrible place to hunt!


----------



## BigT

CPAJeff still has his spot and stalk bear hunt down there that he might already be hunting on. So hopefully we'll hear a success story on this tough hunt!


----------



## SidVicious

That sucks CPA! Losing animals is the worst feeling. We had a similar experience down there. Hit a bull right at last light, saw him hit the dirt, then get back up and take off. Went and looked for blood for two hours in the dark, and found nothing. Went back the next morning and continued looking, and still found no blood. About an hour and a half into searching, I was trying to make sense of what happened and how we could have missed, or wondering if it may have been a bad hit, but when we glassed up a hill that ran above where we took the shot, we found him piled up under a tree. He didn't go far, but there was literally no blood trail to follow. The only blood we found was two feet from where he died. They are tough S.O.B.'s. Sucks when you can't get them. Unfortunately, I think it is bound to happen to any hunter if they go enough. Love your good attitude, now go kill a huge bear!


----------



## CPAjeff

Sid - I am glad you chimed in! I was wondering how your Dad's hunt went - thanks for the update and glad to hear you were able to find him!


----------



## Karl

Care to discuss bullet weight and cartridge size?

Not to open any old wounds, but I have found that elk require rather extra heavy bullets to impart a significant hydrostatic shot to stun the animal and make him drop in his tracks.

When they walk off like that, I would think it makes sense not to track them right away, as in archery, where you should usually sit down where the blood trail begins and wait about an hour first. Otherwise they hear you coming and they keep going.

Another trick is to look around water sources. When they bleed it makes them really thirsty so they often head downhill to water.

Are you going back to look for it again?


----------



## TommyGun

CPAjeff,

I have total empathy for you. I'm so sorry that a great hunt ended with a lost animal. I know that you'll be completely successful in all of your future hunts.

My absolute best,

Tommy


----------



## CPAjeff

Karl said:


> Care to discuss bullet weight and cartridge size?
> 
> Not to open any old wounds, but I have found that elk require rather extra heavy bullets to impart a significant hydrostatic shot to stun the animal and make him drop in his tracks.
> 
> When they walk off like that, I would think it makes sense not to track them right away, as in archery, where you should usually sit down where the blood trail begins and wait about an hour first. Otherwise they hear you coming and they keep going.
> 
> Another trick is to look around water sources. When they bleed it makes them really thirsty so they often head downhill to water.
> 
> Are you going back to look for it again?


Hey Karl - while I remember some of your comments from the prior threads about bullets and all that other jazz, let me start off by saying that I have personally witnessed over 150 big game animals - elk, deer, antelope, moose, mountain goats, and buffalo harvested; in real time, with my own eyes. The majority of them have been elk. I don't say that to boost or anything, but you seem like the condescending type and consider all to be inferior of yourself and your "readings."

This was a muzzleloader tag - please see this thread for an breakdown of my ballistics - - http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/151713-la-sal-elk-bear-adventure.html

On your tracking comments - please wait for the above thread to be updated here in about an hour and make your own conclusions afterward.

Thanks!


----------



## CPAjeff

TommyGun said:


> CPAjeff,
> 
> I have total empathy for you. I'm so sorry that a great hunt ended with a lost animal. I know that you'll be completely successful in all of your future hunts.
> 
> My absolute best,
> 
> Tommy


Thanks for the kind words!


----------



## Idratherbehunting

Sorry to hear that CPA. That sucks to have an animal be lost. Knowing what I do about you, I'm sure your sick about it.


----------



## TommyGun

Karl said:


> Care to discuss bullet weight and cartridge size?
> 
> Not to open any old wounds, but I have found that elk require rather extra heavy bullets to impart a significant hydrostatic shot to stun the animal and make him drop in his tracks.
> 
> When they walk off like that, I would think it makes sense not to track them right away, as in archery, where you should usually sit down where the blood trail begins and wait about an hour first. Otherwise they hear you coming and they keep going.
> 
> Another trick is to look around water sources. When they bleed it makes them really thirsty so they often head downhill to water.
> 
> Are you going back to look for it again?


Karl,

Some things are best left in the past.

Hydrostatic shock has never been proved. Scientists are still debating whether it exists.

Newton's Third Law of Physics proves that no shoulder fired weapon can knock an animal off of its hooves. No handgun round can knock a person off his feet.

Everything living dies when its brain ceases to function. This can be accomplished in one of two ways: destroy an animal's brain, or deprive an animal's brain of oxygenated blood. Nearly all big game animals die as a result of the latter.

Death is defined as lack of brain activity.

Within reason, cartridge is immaterial in causing death to any big game animal. A bullet fired from a .30-30 Win that destroys the largest elk's heart and/or lungs will kill it just as dead as any super magnum. This is not opinion. It is biological fact. Nothing living remains in the condition without topside oxygenated blood flow. That is 100% biological fact.

Every year, huge elk are felled by arrows traveling at ~300 FPS. Before humans learned of archery, they killed big game with spears.

I'm good with any cartridge a hunter wants to use. After all, his choice of cartridge is his business. But he's deceiving himself if he believes that his super magnum will kill big game any deader than an '06. An '06 bullet trough an elk's heart will kill it just as dead as a bullet fired from a .300 RUM.

A heart shot elk, regardless of cartridge, has seconds to live. This is biological fact. When he hits dirt, he will not get up.

The very old saying of a .243 Win in the boiler room is a whole lot better than an '06 bullet in the guts remains true. Like all things true, that saying is as true today as it was when it was coined.

Super magnums will never compensate for bad shooting. A hunter with a .270 Win that he can accurately shoot will always be successful. A hunter with a super magnum that he can't shoot will leave a lot of wounded big game behind.

Bullet placement beats super magnum bad shooting every single time.


----------



## TommyGun

CPAjeff,

You're welcome.

I've helped other tack wounded animals. One, a grown man, was so distraught at losing a mule deer buck, that he became despondent and nearly physically ill. I felt terrible for him. We tracked that buck for two days before reality hit us. If I recall correctly, he never hunted again on that trip.


----------



## backcountry

Thx for sharing. As a completely new hunter I learn from these shared experiences. 

You hunted some tough terrain. Those scree and rock fields can be brutal in the La Sals. 

I look forward to reading more when I return (migraines finally stopped 72 hours ago, off to hunt).


----------



## Karl

TommyGun said:


> Karl,
> 
> Some things are best left in the past.
> 
> Hydrostatic shock has never been proved. Scientists are still debating whether it exists.
> 
> Newton's Third Law of Physics proves that no shoulder fired weapon can knock an animal off of its hooves. No handgun round can knock a person off his feet.
> 
> Everything living dies when its brain ceases to function. This can be accomplished in one of two ways: destroy an animal's brain, or deprive an animal's brain of oxygenated blood. Nearly all big game animals die as a result of the latter.
> 
> Death is defined as lack of brain activity.
> 
> Within reason, cartridge is immaterial in causing death to any big game animal. A bullet fired from a .30-30 Win that destroys the largest elk's heart and/or lungs will kill it just as dead as any super magnum. This is not opinion. It is biological fact. Nothing living remains in the condition without topside oxygenated blood flow. That is 100% biological fact.
> 
> Every year, huge elk are felled by arrows traveling at ~300 FPS. Before humans learned of archery, they killed big game with spears.
> 
> I'm good with any cartridge a hunter wants to use. After all, his choice of cartridge is his business. But he's deceiving himself if he believes that his super magnum will kill big game any deader than an '06. An '06 bullet trough an elk's heart will kill it just as dead as a bullet fired from a .300 RUM.
> 
> A heart shot elk, regardless of cartridge, has seconds to live. This is biological fact. When he hits dirt, he will not get up.
> 
> The very old saying of a .243 Win in the boiler room is a whole lot better than an '06 bullet in the guts remains true. Like all things true, that saying is as true today as it was when it was coined.
> 
> Super magnums will never compensate for bad shooting. A hunter with a .270 Win that he can accurately shoot will always be successful. A hunter with a super magnum that he can't shoot will leave a lot of wounded big game behind.
> 
> Bullet placement beats super magnum bad shooting every single time.


Those are all really great old sayings.

Here are the guidelines I use. And I have never had one walk away:

- squirrel -- 22LR
- rabbit -- 22LR
- 'yote -- 30-30 or 5.56x45 in 55 or 65 gr
- small deer -- 30-30 or 243 in 105 gr (EDIT)
- med deer -- 243 or 308 in 150 gr
- large deer -- 270 or 30-06 in 165 grain
- black bear -- 30-06 or 300 in 185 or 200 grain
- elk -- same as black bears.

Muzzle loaders are a special case -- some are long range while others just require you to get closer. The technology is getting pretty good and these former smoke poles can reach out quite far these days.

I hope you can go back and keep tracking it.

The meat will still be good even after a day or two.


----------



## Karl

CPAjeff said:


> Hey Karl - while I remember some of your comments from the prior threads about bullets and all that other jazz, let me start off by saying that I have personally witnessed over 150 big game animals - elk, deer, antelope, moose, mountain goats, and buffalo harvested; in real time, with my own eyes. The majority of them have been elk. I don't say that to boost or anything, but you seem like the condescending type and consider all to be inferior of yourself and your "readings."
> 
> This was a muzzleloader tag - please see this thread for an breakdown of my ballistics - - http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/151713-la-sal-elk-bear-adventure.html
> 
> On your tracking comments - please wait for the above thread to be updated here in about an hour and make your own conclusions afterward.
> 
> Thanks!


There is always a problem with anecdotal experience because it is not statistically sound.

Best thing is to be sure and not cut corners.


----------



## SidVicious

We were definitely lucky to find him. We were feeling pretty bad about it before that, so I know how you feel. Always sucks to lose an animal. There was also a big cinnamon phase boar sighting while we were down there though. PM me if you are interested in where it was if you're still after a bear. I can't wait to hear how the rest of your hunt goes!


----------



## CPAjeff

Karl said:


> There is always a problem with anecdotal experience because it is not statistically sound.
> 
> Best thing is to be sure and not cut corners.


Haha Karl ... Karl ... Karl ... - so having numerous statistical classes in my undergrad and grad programs, I am very familiar with statistics and how a person can massage numbers to get whatever outcome they want out of them - hell, I am an accountant and know when I can "massage" numbers to get them to look a certain way. I will take my personal experience of 150+ verse some outdoor writer.

Let's look at the definition of your favorite term - anecdotal experience:
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/anecdotal

"Something anecdotal has to do with anecdotes - little stories. *Anecdotal evidence is based on hearsay rather than hard facts.* People like to share stories about things that happened to them, or that they heard about, to make a point. That kind of talk is anecdotal: based on small, personal accounts"

I am saying that based off my 150+ experienced hunts - firsthand and as a helper - I don't consider my experience "hearsay," or "based on small, personal accounts." Nor, do I find it all encompassing. Tell me, Karl, how many animals have you harvested personally, or been sitting next to the guy/gal when they pulled the trigger?

Also, based off your recommendations above and please correct me if I am wrong - you are saying that small and medium deer should be harvested with .243 in 130 grain? Where on earth are you getting the 130 grainers for a .243?? The heaviest bullet for the .243 that is offered by Berger is 115 VLD, Barnes is 80 TTSX and 85 TSX, Speer is 100, etc.


----------



## Karl

CPAjeff said:


> Haha Karl ... Karl ... Karl ... - so having numerous statistical classes in my undergrad and grad programs, I am very familiar with statistics and how a person can massage numbers to get whatever outcome they want out of them - hell, I am an accountant and know when I can "massage" numbers to get them to look a certain way. I will take my personal experience of 150+ verse some outdoor writer.
> 
> Let's look at the definition of your favorite term - anecdotal experience:
> https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/anecdotal
> 
> "Something anecdotal has to do with anecdotes - little stories. *Anecdotal evidence is based on hearsay rather than hard facts.* People like to share stories about things that happened to them, or that they heard about, to make a point. That kind of talk is anecdotal: based on small, personal accounts"
> 
> I am saying that based off my 150+ experienced hunts - firsthand and as a helper - I don't consider my experience "hearsay," or "based on small, personal accounts." Nor, do I find it all encompassing. Tell me, Karl, how many animals have you harvested personally, or been sitting next to the guy/gal when they pulled the trigger?


Anecdotal experience is a logic fallacy similar to hasty generalization.

Below is a citation to a full list of logic fallacies and anecdote is one of them. It has less to do with statistics, but statistics is the scientific measurement used in the scientific determination of the gathering of data towards a good rule or inference in inductive reasoning that justifies logical thought.

Anyway, the fallacy list is cited below in its completeness. I hope you don't mind digging through it to the anecdotal fallacy.

I hope you'll give us a more complete and detailed analysis of what you think might have gone wrong on the hunt -- distance, bullet weight, muzzle velocity, and if you have it also muzzle energy. I am guessing your bull elk was big around 500 lbs. It takes a tough elk to take a hit and roll over and then walk way like that.

Since it knocked him over I am guessing maybe you hit a bone and the elk therefore took the full impact of the energy to his skeletal structure.

You said there was a lot of blood -- but by the same token you could not find him.

There is a lot of good failure analysis in this story to help out a lot of hunters both new and old.

Hopefully you'll help us all to understand what happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


----------



## LostLouisianian

If anyone needs to know how to put certain people on the ignore list let me know. I was once told by a wise man, never argue with a fool as people may have trouble telling who is who.


----------



## DallanC

??

-DallanC


----------



## CPAjeff

Karl - read the thread I sent you the link to. It has all the information you are looking for bullet weight, velocity, energy, distance of shot, etc.


----------



## johnnycake

Obviously the bulls low kryptoselenium blood levels as a result of swilling down liters of pesticides had the effect of growing an armored layer under his skin to compensate for the funky testicles. 

^peer-reviewed btw. 

Because, Science.


----------



## bowgy

:drama:op2:


----------



## DallanC

Karl said:


> Then don't argue..


Lol, I was replying to LL, not you.

Believe me, I have better things to do than argue bullet weights, terminal performance etc etc.

4 tags filled so far this year, 2 deer, 1 bull elk, 1 antelope... 2 tags left, bookcliffs deer and another elk. Still too much todo... (but it is fun!). You all can argue it, I'm going to hunt some more, and when thats done I'm going ice fishing.

-DallanC


----------



## Karl

CPAjeff said:


> Karl - read the thread I sent you the link to. It has all the information you are looking for bullet weight, velocity, energy, distance of shot, etc.


Ok thanks. I found it.

So new gun, new loads, heavy bullets, but comparatively low energy downrange.

I am guessing that the low energy resulted in the problem. Just a guess, since you did not provide another guess.

With my 300 RUM I don't have this problem. But it was a muzzleloader hunt.


----------



## Karl

DallanC said:


> Lol, I was replying to LL, not you.
> 
> Believe me, I have better things to do than argue bullet weights, terminal performance etc etc.
> 
> 4 tags filled so far this year, 2 deer, 1 bull elk, 1 antelope... 2 tags left, bookcliffs deer and another elk. Still too much todo... (but it is fun!). You all can argue it, I'm going to hunt some more, and when thats done I'm going ice fishing.
> 
> -DallanC


Ok thanks for the clarification. I have him on ignore so I did not see it.

I deleted my reply.


----------



## willfish4food

CPA, super sorry to hear you lost your bull. That's got to be the worst feeling possible when hunting. I'd gladly eat tag soup a hundred times over if I never lost another animal! Best of luck on your bear hunt though!


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Karl said:


> Those are all really great old sayings.
> 
> Here are the guidelines I use. And I have never had one walk away:
> 
> - squirrel -- 22LR
> - rabbit -- 22LR
> - 'yote -- 30-30 or 5.56x45 in 55 or 65 gr
> - small deer -- 30-30 or 243 in 130 gr
> - med deer -- 243 or 308 in 150 gr
> - large deer -- 270 or 30-06 in 165 grain
> - black bear -- 30-06 or 300 in 185 or 200 grain
> - elk -- same as black bears.
> 
> Muzzle loaders are a special case -- some are long range while others just require you to get closer. The technology is getting pretty good and these former smoke poles can reach out quite far these days.
> 
> I hope you can go back and keep tracking it.
> 
> *The meat will still be good even after a day or two*.


uhhhhh.....maybe if you have the guts of a turkey vulture or something.


----------



## willfish4food

Karl said:


> Here are the guidelines I use. And I have never had one walk away:
> 
> - squirrel -- 22LR
> - rabbit -- 22LR
> - 'yote -- 30-30 or 5.56x45 in 55 or 65 gr
> - small deer -- 30-30 or *243 in 130 gr*
> - med deer -- *243* or 308 in *150 gr*
> - large deer -- *270* or 30-06 in *165 grain*
> - black bear -- *30-06 or 300 in 185* or 200 grain
> - elk -- same as black bears.


:rotfl::rotfl:

I don't even know where to start. Who specifically hunts small, medium, or large deer? Or do you carry 3 rifles with you on every deer hunt? "gee I'd like to shoot that giant buck, but all I brought was my small deer gun..."

There is no such thing as a 130 or 150 grain 243 bullet... because they would be impossible to stabilize... unless they had fins! I'm not aware of a 165 grain bullet in .277, but I could be wrong. At any rate 150 is the largest common weight at that caliber for a reason, and it's not because the manufacturers are inexperienced or dumb.

185 for a .308 bullet. Why not the VASTLY more common and popular (again for a good reason) 180 grain bullet?

Still waiting to see some of that literature you've been speaking about in your other posts...


----------



## APD

Jeff, 
sorry to hear about your lost animal. trauma is a strange beast. i'm always surprised at people who survive incredible trauma and just as perplexed when a mundane slow crash/fall results in a fatality. there are so many things that can happen with a projectile on entry that change the outcome of the hunt. I've seen animals pack snow/mud in a wound and go days until a large predator finds them. i've also seen high lung hits get harvested the following year. looked like a 30 cal bullet under the offside. so, strange things happen to us all. be fortunate that this is the first time your number came up and hope it doesn't come up again. best of luck as you are one of the nicest guys around these parts. I'm still grateful for the advice you gave me. Thank you again.


Karl,
Personal opinions are fine but some are best kept personal. it's obvious no one here will change you opinion. please allow others to have an opinion too. There's no sense arguing over a few grains, especially when it doesn't apply to the current thread.


----------



## CPAjeff

APD said:


> Jeff,
> sorry to hear about your lost animal. trauma is a strange beast. i'm always surprised at people who survive incredible trauma and just as perplexed when a mundane slow crash/fall results in a fatality. there are so many things that can happen with a projectile on entry that change the outcome of the hunt. I've seen animals pack snow/mud in a wound and go days until a large predator finds them. i've also seen high lung hits get harvested the following year. looked like a 30 cal bullet under the offside. so, strange things happen to us all. be fortunate that this is the first time your number came up and hope it doesn't come up again. best of luck as you are one of the nicest guys around these parts. I'm still grateful for the advice you gave me. Thank you again.


Thanks for the kind words! Strange things for sure happen and I hope my number never comes up again. Including the bear tag, I still have seven tags to fill this fall, but the rest will be with my .270 WSM!


----------



## Karl

willfish4food said:


> :rotfl::rotfl:
> 
> I don't even know where to start. Who specifically hunts small, medium, or large deer? Or do you carry 3 rifles with you on every deer hunt? "gee I'd like to shoot that giant buck, but all I brought was my small deer gun..."
> 
> There is no such thing as a 130 or 150 grain 243 bullet... because they would be impossible to stabilize... unless they had fins! I'm not aware of a 165 grain bullet in .277, but I could be wrong. At any rate 150 is the largest common weight at that caliber for a reason, and it's not because the manufacturers are inexperienced or dumb.
> 
> 185 for a .308 bullet. Why not the VASTLY more common and popular (again for a good reason) 180 grain bullet?
> 
> Still waiting to see some of that literature you've been speaking about in your other posts...


A small deer, for example, would be a Texas white tail.

A med deer would be a Calif/Ore black tail.

A large deer would be a Utah/Colo mule deer.

Of course within each of those species the deer vary in size as well.

Hope that helps you out.


----------



## Karl

APD said:


> ...
> 
> Karl,
> Personal opinions are fine but some are best kept personal. it's obvious no one here will change you opinion. please allow others to have an opinion too. There's no sense arguing over a few grains, especially when it doesn't apply to the current thread.


Real men do not normally shrink away from failure analysis.

That's the best way not to repeat the failure.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Karl said:


> Real men do not normally shrink away from failure analysis.
> 
> That's the best way not to repeat the failure.


Karl, what would one use for small to medium size moose? I'm thinking a .338 Federal with a 275 grain accubond. Is this round up to the task?


----------



## Karl

colorcountrygunner said:


> Karl, what would one use for small to medium size moose? I'm thinking a .338 Federal with a 275 grain accubond. Is this round up to the task?


I used to have a 338 and found that the recoil was too painful for me, so I went back to 300 RUM.

So I don't concern myself with 338's anymore. Nor anything larger.

Everyone has their own pain threshold and needs to find out what it is.

My 12 gauge hurts really badly too with magnum slugs in it, but if I were shooting that it would be at a bear, in which case one would just need to grin and bear it.

So the rule for ethical and humane big game hunting is this:

- Determine what is the heaviest caliber and load that you can bear;

- Hunt game consistent with a humane kill for that level of high power rifle;

- Avoid hunting game that your rifle is underpowered for.

Q.E.D.


----------



## Vanilla

Karl said:


> I hope you can go back and keep tracking it.
> 
> The meat will still be good even after a day or two.


So looks like you're as knowledgeable on meat as you are on the lethality of bullet weights.


----------



## APD

Karl said:


> Real men do not normally shrink away from failure analysis.
> 
> That's the best way not to repeat the failure.


ok, you asked for it.... Mine's bigger than yours!


----------



## colorcountrygunner

APD said:


> ok, you asked for it.... Mine's bigger than yours!


Are you sure about that? He shoots some pretty big guns, bro!


----------



## Idratherbehunting

Karl said:


> colorcountrygunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Karl, what would one use for small to medium size moose? I'm thinking a .338 Federal with a 275 grain accubond. Is this round up to the task?
> 
> 
> 
> I used to have a 338 and found that the recoil was too painful for me, so I went back to 300 RUM.
> 
> So I don't concern myself with 338's anymore. Nor anything larger.
> 
> Everyone has their own pain threshold and needs to find out what it is.
> 
> My 12 gauge hurts really badly too with magnum slugs in it, but if I were shooting that it would be at a bear, in which case one would just need to grin and bear it.
> 
> So the rule for ethical and humane big game hunting is this:
> 
> - Determine what is the heaviest caliber and load that you can bear;
> 
> - Hunt game consistent with a humane kill for that level of high power rifle;
> 
> - Avoid hunting game that your rifle is underpowered for.
> 
> Q.E.D.
Click to expand...

A real man would not shrink away from a big recoil, as clearly bigger is always better and the size of a mans gun dictates his lethality as a hunter. -10 cred points for being weak.


----------



## willfish4food

Karl said:


> A small deer, for example, would be a Texas white tail.
> 
> A med deer would be a Calif/Ore black tail.
> 
> A large deer would be a Utah/Colo mule deer.
> 
> Of course within each of those species the deer vary in size as well.
> 
> Hope that helps you out.


Wow thanks, that does help me out. I'll be sure to be better prepared next time I go out. What would an Alabama whitetail be classified as in the KBGCS (Karl's big game classification system). Do you mind that I call it that? I'm going to start referring to it as such, and I don't want to miss represent your work.

Anyway, I'm going after whitetails in Alabama this year and I surely don't want to be under gunned. I was planning on taking my 6mm rem that has taken about a half dozen mule deer since I inherited it from my grandpa, but all I have is 95 grain bullets. Since I can't find the non-existent 130 grain bullets or the equally non-existent 150 grain bullets, I really don't know what to do.

Maybe you could point me to some of the literature you've been talking about. Of course then I'd have to stop being lazy and study some things out for myself. That sounds almost as bad as getting out and practicing with my weapon so I'm proficient... nah, that's too much work; you'd better just tell me what to do without knowing anything about me.

Seriously though, I'm sill waiting in great anticipation for references to the literature you've been talking about.


----------



## willfish4food

Karl said:


> I used to have a 338 and found that the recoil was too painful for me, so I went back to 300 RUM.
> 
> *So I don't concern myself with 338's anymore. Nor anything larger.*
> 
> Everyone has their own pain threshold and needs to find out what it is.
> 
> My 12 gauge hurts really badly too with magnum slugs in it, but if I were shooting that it would be at a bear, in which case one would just need to grin and bear it.
> 
> So the rule for ethical and humane big game hunting is this:
> 
> - Determine what is the heaviest caliber and load that you can bear;
> 
> - Hunt game consistent with a humane kill for that level of high power rifle;
> 
> - Avoid hunting game that your rifle is underpowered for.
> 
> Q.E.D.


Poor guy doesn't know when he's being trolled. Look up .338 federal and let me know if you still feel any.338 is not worth looking at cause it's too heavy hitting. Bigger numbers do not always mean harder hitting.


----------



## wyogoob

This is my favorite thread.

Sorry about your bull CPAJeff. I just now read your great thread about the hunt.

I'm telling ya, big game hunting can be a humbling experience. Did I tell ya I missed my once-in-a-lifetime Bighorn ram? It's true, I'm not making this up. I'm thinking....you and I get our groceries at the same store right? Maybe we should get together, put on our best camo and go to that grocery store and buy some meat together. I'll buy ya a Diet Mountain Dew. 

.


----------



## CPAjeff

wyogoob said:


> This is my favorite thread.
> 
> Sorry about your bull CPAJeff. I just now read your great thread about the hunt.
> 
> I'm telling ya, big game hunting can be a humbling experience. Did I tell ya I missed my once-in-a-lifetime Bighorn ram? It's true, I'm not making this up. I'm thinking....you and I get our groceries at the same store right? Maybe we should get together, put on our best camo and go to that grocery store and buy some meat together. I'll buy ya a Diet Mountain Dew.
> 
> .


Sounds like a great plan!


----------



## DallanC

If you would have planned that a week earlier I'd have bought the 'Dew. We rolled through Evingston Saturday... twice, and we didn't even get a speeding ticket.


-DallanC


----------



## berrysblaster

Is Karl related to Hillary?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## backcountry

Could we not bring politics into this? It's going to be a rough month and it's pleasant to have a place to come that isn't divisive based on political leanings.


----------



## CPAjeff

berrysblaster said:


> Is Karl related to Hillary?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Or .... Tristate from MM, or .... Shaun, his gf, his mom, or whatever his handle is now.


----------



## Vanilla

Karl actually put together a proper complete sentence one time. So definitely not tristate.


----------



## berrysblaster

Vanilla said:


> Karl actually put together a proper complete sentence one time. So definitely not tristate.


This made me blow a snot bubble

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Karl

Vanilla said:


> Karl actually put together a proper complete sentence one time. So definitely not tristate.


Want me to start correcting your grammar ??

Or do you just relish preschool level ad homs ??

I taught university technical writing when I was in grad school.


----------



## Karl

Idratherbehunting said:


> A real man would not shrink away from a big recoil, as clearly bigger is always better and the size of a mans gun dictates his lethality as a hunter. -10 cred points for being weak.


It all depends on your body size.


----------



## Karl

willfish4food said:


> Wow thanks, that does help me out. I'll be sure to be better prepared next time I go out. What would an Alabama whitetail be classified as in the KBGCS (Karl's big game classification system). Do you mind that I call it that? I'm going to start referring to it as such, and I don't want to miss represent your work.
> 
> Anyway, I'm going after whitetails in Alabama this year and I surely don't want to be under gunned. I was planning on taking my 6mm rem that has taken about a half dozen mule deer since I inherited it from my grandpa, but all I have is 95 grain bullets. Since I can't find the non-existent 130 grain bullets or the equally non-existent 150 grain bullets, I really don't know what to do.
> 
> Maybe you could point me to some of the literature you've been talking about. Of course then I'd have to stop being lazy and study some things out for myself. That sounds almost as bad as getting out and practicing with my weapon so I'm proficient... nah, that's too much work; you'd better just tell me what to do without knowing anything about me.
> 
> Seriously though, I'm sill waiting in great anticipation for references to the literature you've been talking about.


http://www.wideopenspaces.com/jack-oconnor-famous-gun-writer-father-270-winchester/


----------



## MuscleWhitefish

Karl said:


> Those are all really great old sayings.
> 
> Here are the guidelines I use. And I have never had one walk away:
> 
> - squirrel -- 22LR
> - rabbit -- 22LR
> - 'yote -- 30-30 or 5.56x45 in 55 or 65 gr
> - small deer -- 30-30 or 243 in 130 gr
> - med deer -- 243 or 308 in 150 gr
> - large deer -- 270 or 30-06 in 165 grain
> - black bear -- 30-06 or 300 in 185 or 200 grain
> - elk -- same as black bears.
> 
> Muzzle loaders are a special case -- some are long range while others just require you to get closer. The technology is getting pretty good and these former smoke poles can reach out quite far these days.
> 
> I hope you can go back and keep tracking it.
> 
> The meat will still be good even after a day or two.


This list is interesting. There is very little difference between the .308 and .30-06. A Nosler bullet on the box has them at the same muzzle velocity and muzzle energy for the 165 gr AB. 
*Muzzle Velocity (F.P.S.):* 2,800
*Muzzle Energy (ft. / lbs.): *2,872

By small deer, I assume you mean Sitka Blacktail or Coues Whitetail. Which are species that I wouldn't take a .30-30, because of the range.

By Medium deer, I assume you mean whitetail in which case. I like the caliber selection.

By Large deer, I assume you mean Mule Deer or Caribou in which case the calibers are good IMO.

With black bears, it is a lot more important to be accurate (because they are forest cows with massive guts) and the calibers will work.

With Elk those will work.

The only animal I would like would require a bigger caliber bullet in North America would be a Grizz. Given the limited opportunities, I do not think that you would need one.

Bullet design and action is a big component of taking big game animals. I like Bergers, but Nosler, Hornady, Federal, etc will get the job done.

I have a .338 win that shoots 300 grain bergers. It has a 26 inch barrel with a muzzle break topped off with a 50mm Leupold VX 3L. With the bipod attached it probably weighs in the 10-11 lb range. It is a road hunting gun, because the blast scares all the hunters out of the area. If I am doing any hiking at all, I take the .30-06 with 168 gr Bergers. I am thinking about trading the .338 win and getting a different caliber, because it is heavy and awkward to carry in the style of hunting that I do.

I would not hesitate to get a 6.5 x 284 or 270 WSM for elk. People kill elk every year with these wimpy calibers.

Now, I wouldn't go with a .243; but a caliber with a point blank range of ~300 yards and that does suck the life out of you carrying it, is the way to go.


----------



## Karl

CPAjeff said:


> Or .... Tristate from MM, or .... Shaun, his gf, his mom, or whatever his handle is now.


Wow kid. Your elk trauma has really lowered you into the mire of ad hom.

Hopefully the observations here have helped you in your own failure analysis.

The 270 should solve most of your problems. At least according to Jack OConnor.


----------



## Karl

MuscleWhitefish said:


> This list is interesting. There is very little difference between the .308 and .30-06. A Nosler bullet on the box has them at the same muzzle velocity and muzzle energy for the 165 gr AB.
> *Muzzle Velocity (F.P.S.):* 2,800
> *Muzzle Energy (ft. / lbs.): *2,872
> 
> By small deer, I assume you mean Sitka Blacktail or Coues Whitetail. Which are species that I wouldn't take a .30-30, because of the range.
> 
> By Medium deer, I assume you mean whitetail in which case. I like the caliber selection.
> 
> By Large deer, I assume you mean Mule Deer or Caribou in which case the calibers are good IMO.
> 
> With black bears, it is a lot more important to be accurate (because they are forest cows with massive guts) and the calibers will work.
> 
> With Elk those will work.
> 
> The only animal I would like would require a bigger caliber bullet in North America would be a Grizz. Given the limited opportunities, I do not think that you would need one.
> 
> Bullet design and action is a big component of taking big game animals. I like Bergers, but Nosler, Hornady, Federal, etc will get the job done.
> 
> I have a .338 win that shoots 300 grain bergers. It has a 26 inch barrel with a muzzle break topped off with a 50mm Leupold VX 3L. With the bipod attached it probably weighs in the 10-11 lb range. It is a road hunting gun, because the blast scares all the hunters out of the area. If I am doing any hiking at all, I take the .30-06 with 168 gr Bergers. I am thinking about trading the .338 win and getting a different caliber, because it is heavy and awkward to carry in the style of hunting that I do.
> 
> I would not hesitate to get a 6.5 x 284 or 270 WSM for elk. People kill elk every year with these wimpy calibers.
> 
> Now, I wouldn't go with a .243; but a caliber with a point blank range of ~300 yards and that does suck the life out of you carrying it, is the way to go.


So there is very little difference between the 308 and the 30-06 huh?

I think I will stop reading right there.

Thanks though.


----------



## Karl

Lots of questions today. I'm surprised someone had not heard of Jack OConnor nor read any of his hunting articles.

Lots of strange trolls too.

The good thing about trolls is that you can I/D them and put them onto the ignore list.

This avoids wasting any time on them in the future.

Keep the questions coming if you like. The one about grammar was the funniest so far.

Now I need to update my ignore list.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish

Karl said:


> So there is very little difference between the 308 and the 30-06 huh?
> 
> I think I will stop reading right there.
> 
> Thanks though.


http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...e-30-06-sprg-165-grain-ab-20-rounds?a=1588031

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...rade-308-win-165-grain-ab-20-rounds?a=1588034

*Cartridge:* .30-06 Sprg.®
*Bullet Wt. Grs.: *165
*Bullet Style:* AccuBond®
*Muzzle Velocity (F.P.S.):* 2,800
*Muzzle Energy (ft. / lbs.): *2,872
*Rounds per box:* 20.

*Cartridge: *.308 Win.® 
*Bullet Wt. Grs.: *165 
*Bullet Style: *AccuBond®
*Muzzle Velocity (F.P.S.): *2,800 
*Muzzle Energy (ft. / lbs.):* 2,872 
*Rounds per box:* 20.

To me this is very little difference. I guess I should have said no difference in this type of ammo. My mistake.

I imagine if you reload the 06 is a better choice, but ain't nobody got time for that.


----------



## Karl

MuscleWhitefish said:


> http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...e-30-06-sprg-165-grain-ab-20-rounds?a=1588031
> 
> http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...rade-308-win-165-grain-ab-20-rounds?a=1588034
> 
> *Cartridge:* .30-06 Sprg.®
> *Bullet Wt. Grs.: *165
> *Bullet Style:* AccuBond®
> *Muzzle Velocity (F.P.S.):* 2,800
> *Muzzle Energy (ft. / lbs.): *2,872
> *Rounds per box:* 20.
> 
> *Cartridge: *.308 Win.®
> *Bullet Wt. Grs.: *165
> *Bullet Style: *AccuBond®
> *Muzzle Velocity (F.P.S.): *2,800
> *Muzzle Energy (ft. / lbs.):* 2,872
> *Rounds per box:* 20.
> 
> To me this is very little difference. I guess I should have said no difference in this type of ammo. My mistake.
> 
> I imagine if you reload the 06 is a better choice, but ain't nobody got time for that.


Thank you.


----------



## berrysblaster

I'm still waiting for Karl to tell us where to find a 130 grain .243 shell or a 165 grain .270...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Karl

Each of the various hunting guns obviously does something different from each of the rest of them.

Hunting guns start at the low energy end with the 308 and its necked down cousin the 243.

A lot of people consider the 30-30 a hunting gun too, although it is even lighter than the 308 and the 243. The 30-30 however was originally developed as an anti personnel Indian fighter gun, but then marketed as a sporting rifle as well. I don't believe it, personally.

Anyone who attended hunter safety as a kid learned that the 243 is probably the low end of hunting guns, followed by the 308.

Handicapped weapons like the slug shooting shotgun and the muzzleloader have been used in hunting for close range shots, the muzzle loaders being more accurate, but the shotgun slugs packing a bigger wallop of the two.

If you try a shot too far with these two handicapped weapon you are going to either miss or you are going to knock over the game if it hits a rib, and you will lose track of the animal as it scurries off. Common failure. Archery has the same issues when bowhunters try a shot too far, such as further than 20 to 30 yards. The percentages of success go way down.

So that's pretty much the end of the story in this particular failure analysis in this thread.

Putting all the various shameless trolls onto the ignore list really cleans up the thread.

Otherwise like Wyogoob said, this has been a good thread in terms of discussion.

Like Wyo, I too have a shotgun and with magnum slugs it will kill anything on this Earth if you are close enough.

But I only use mine for campsite security against bears.


----------



## CPAjeff

Karl said:


> Wow kid. Your elk trauma has really lowered you into the mire of ad hom.
> 
> Hopefully the observations here have helped you in your own failure analysis.
> 
> The 270 should solve most of your problems. At least according to Jack OConnor.


Karl ... Karl ... Karl ...

You questioning my manhood, calling me kid and whatever method you have tried to be demeaning over the course of this thread really has no effect on anything to me personally - I am not from the Duck Dynasty-******* crowd where I have to "prove" my manhood. I have no idea who you are, never will care to meet you personally, and have concluded that you have no idea what you are talking about (130 grain bullets out of a .243 and one inch slugs - really???).

I have completed my personal "failure analysis" and decided to punch my tag. There are about 1,799,995,654,646 people that I respect a lot more than you on this forum, and if I so desired, I would reach out to them for their views and their opinions about my hunt.

Being young, does has it advantages - one of them is that I grew up watching some Adam Sandler movies. When I read your constant ramblings and lack of knowledge, I thought of the following clip; 





No ad hom on my part, I was honestly wondering if you are Tristate or Shaun - you all seem to act the same way.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish

Karl said:


> Each of the various hunting guns obviously does something different from each of the rest of them.
> 
> Hunting guns start at the low energy end with the 308 and its necked down cousin the 243.
> 
> A lot of people consider the 30-30 a hunting gun too, although it is even lighter than the 308 and the 243. The 30-30 however was originally developed as an anti personnel Indian fighter gun, but then marketed as a sporting rifle as well. I don't believe it, personally.
> 
> Anyone who attended hunter safety as a kid learned that the 243 is probably the low end of hunting guns, followed by the 308.
> 
> Handicapped weapons like the slug shooting shotgun and the muzzleloader have been used in hunting for close range shots, the muzzle loaders being more accurate, but the shotgun slugs packing a bigger wallop of the two.
> 
> If you try a shot too far with these two handicapped weapon you are going to either miss or you are going to knock over the game if it hits a rib, and you will lose track of the animal as it scurries off. Common failure. Archery has the same issues when bowhunters try a shot too far, such as further than 20 to 30 yards. The percentages of success go way down.
> 
> So that's pretty much the end of the story in this particular failure analysis in this thread.
> 
> Putting all the various shameless trolls onto the ignore list really cleans up the thread.
> 
> Otherwise like Wyogoob said, this has been a good thread in terms of discussion.
> 
> Like Wyo, I too have a shotgun and with magnum slugs it will kill anything on this Earth if you are close enough.
> 
> But I only use mine for campsite security against bears.


Karl

Let me try to help you out.

This is an article by Chuck Hawks a gun writer on Killing Power. http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm

To Quote " It is generally recommended that a small bore (.24-.32 caliber) rifle bullet suitable for medium size (CXP2 class) game be carrying about 800 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy when it hits."

He calls the 30-30 a 200 yard max rifle in the article too.

Here is another article on Ballistics by the same guy 
http://chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm

A 100 Gr .243 has 1332 E at 200 yards. 
A 100 gr .240 Weatherby has 1844 E at 200 yards. 
A 165 gr .308 has 1878 E at 200 yards.
A 180 gr .300 Rum has 3202 E at 200 yards

Given that the ethical E min is 800 E, it is feasible that any cartridge that produces at least 800 E at the point of impact would be lethal.

As far as bullets bouncing off on ribs, I think 800 E would shatter the ribs.

Now, if the bullet composition is like the powerbelt bullets where they explode on impact there may be a problem. If the bullet penetrates and expands there shouldn't be a problem.

An elk hit in the lungs by a .308 is no deader than an elk hit in the lungs with a 300 RUM.

Energy at long range is where the bigger guns come into play and not energy in general.

Here is another article about Magnums that you may like to read. 
http://www.chuckhawks.com/cannons_field.htm


----------



## willfish4food

Karl said:


> A lot of people consider the 30-30 a hunting gun too, although it is even lighter than the 308 and the 243. The 30-30 however was originally developed as an anti personnel Indian fighter gun, but then marketed as a sporting rifle as well. *I don't believe it, personally*. Guess I'll ignore the thousands upon thousands of hunters who only have their anecdotal experience based on hundreds of thousands if not millions of encounters with big game animals. I suppose the prudent thing to do is take your word for it instead.
> 
> Anyone who attended hunter safety as a kid learned that the 243 is probably the low end of hunting guns, followed by the 308.
> 
> Handicapped weapons like the slug shooting shotgun and the muzzleloader have been used in hunting for close range shots, the muzzle loaders being more accurate, but the shotgun slugs packing a bigger wallop of the two.
> 
> If you try a shot too far with these two handicapped weapon you are going to either miss or you are going to knock over the game if it hits a rib, and you will lose track of the animal as it scurries off. If you hit an animal in the ribs with as slug, it's not going to be scurrying very far. A rib is a thin bone, not an iron clad defense. Common failure. Archery has the same issues *when bowhunters try a shot too far, such as further than 20 to 30 yards*. The percentages of success go way down. Come on man, try to use arguments that will ADD to your credibility.
> 
> Putting all the various shameless trolls onto the ignore list really cleans up the thread.





Karl said:


> http://www.wideopenspaces.com/jack-oconnor-famous-gun-writer-father-270-winchester/


What's your point? That Jack O'Connor is the father of the 270? Or, is it that the 270 win is the antithesis of what you've been preaching about bullet weight and size?


----------



## derekp1999

Karl said:


> Handicapped weapons like the slug shooting shotgun and the muzzleloader...


The politically correct term "Special needs"


----------



## Karl

CPAjeff said:


> Karl ... Karl ... Karl ...
> 
> You questioning my manhood, calling me kid and whatever method you have tried to be demeaning over the course of this thread really has no effect on anything to me personally - I am not from the Duck Dynasty-******* crowd where I have to "prove" my manhood. I have no idea who you are, never will care to meet you personally, and have concluded that you have no idea what you are talking about (130 grain bullets out of a .243 and one inch slugs - really???).
> 
> I have completed my personal "failure analysis" and decided to punch my tag. There are about 1,799,995,654,646 people that I respect a lot more than you on this forum, and if I so desired, I would reach out to them for their views and their opinions about my hunt.
> 
> Being young, does has it advantages - one of them is that I grew up watching some Adam Sandler movies. When I read your constant ramblings and lack of knowledge, I thought of the following clip;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No ad hom on my part, I was honestly wondering if you are Tristate or Shaun - you all seem to act the same way.


Ad hom's are very childish.

So if you want to be viewed as an adult don't lower yourself to their use.

Of course Trump and Hillary are both setting really bad examples for everyone except the preschool kids with their own ad hom's.

'Tis the season for ad hom's apparently.

At any rate, besides anecdotes, ad hom's are also on the fallacy list.

Here is a copy of the list again in case you did not read it yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


----------



## Karl

derekp1999 said:


> The politically correct term "Special needs"


It means you have handicapped yourself compared with high power rifle hunters.

Typically it applies to muzzleloaders and archery, also known as primitive weapons.

I figured he would be more offended if I said "primitive" so I used "handicapped" instead.


----------



## Karl

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Karl
> 
> Let me try to help you out.
> 
> This is an article by Chuck Hawks a gun writer on Killing Power. http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm
> 
> To Quote " It is generally recommended that a small bore (.24-.32 caliber) rifle bullet suitable for medium size (CXP2 class) game be carrying about 800 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy when it hits."
> 
> He calls the 30-30 a 200 yard max rifle in the article too.
> 
> Here is another article on Ballistics by the same guy
> http://chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm
> 
> A 100 Gr .243 has 1332 E at 200 yards.
> A 100 gr .240 Weatherby has 1844 E at 200 yards.
> A 165 gr .308 has 1878 E at 200 yards.
> A 180 gr .300 Rum has 3202 E at 200 yards
> 
> Given that the ethical E min is 800 E, it is feasible that any cartridge that produces at least 800 E at the point of impact would be lethal.
> 
> As far as bullets bouncing off on ribs, I think 800 E would shatter the ribs.
> 
> Now, if the bullet composition is like the powerbelt bullets where they explode on impact there may be a problem. If the bullet penetrates and expands there shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> An elk hit in the lungs by a .308 is no deader than an elk hit in the lungs with a 300 RUM.
> 
> Energy at long range is where the bigger guns come into play and not energy in general.
> 
> Here is another article about Magnums that you may like to read.
> http://www.chuckhawks.com/cannons_field.htm


Thanks, Muscle, those are all interesting points.

For close up I suppose you could kill almost anything with almost anything.

That's why archery and slug shotguns work close up, archery within 35 yards and shotguns within 75 yards.

A muzzle loader is typically similar to a slug shotgun, however these days some of them are very sophisticated and can even reach out a coupe of hundred yards too. The danger in shooting something past 75 yards with a muzzleloader however is missing. And the energy bleeds down really fast too because of the low chamber pressures.

Note that there is a big difference in hydrostatic shock between a 300 and a 308. This is especially true if you hit a bone, like the shoulder or a rib.

300's are bone breakers at almost any distance. 308's are not.

300's fly very flat. 308's do not.

If you can take the recoil, then a 300 is the perfect hunting gun for North America. It is the only rifle you will ever need for anything unless you go to Africa.

308's are not.

270's are not bad either though. They are necked down 30-06's.


----------



## Dunkem

o-||o-||opcorn: ahhhh whats an ad hom? I figured out anecdotes8) These seem to be the 2 most popular words on here?


----------



## brendo

"What would an Alabama whitetail be classified as in the KBGCS (Karl's big game classification system). Do you mind that I call it that?" I'm going to start referring to it as such, and I don't want to miss represent your work.?   

WILLFISH, you made my day with that comment haha. I'm not sure it can be trusted though when I was reading KBWSG (Karl's bullet weight selection guide) he said I could use as little as a 200 grain bullet for cottontail rabbit and I don't know about you but that just seems a little light for me.


----------



## Karl

Dunkem said:


> o-||o-||opcorn: ahhhh whats an ad hom? I figured out anecdotes8) These seem to be the 2 most popular words on here?


When you were back in preschool and someone insulted you and said you were a hotdog, that is an ad hom.

Stands for ad hominem.

Latin.

See the attached list.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


----------



## Karl

brendo said:


> "What would an Alabama whitetail be classified as in the KBGCS (Karl's big game classification system). Do you mind that I call it that?" I'm going to start referring to it as such, and I don't want to miss represent your work.?
> 
> WILLFISH, you made my day with that comment haha. I'm not sure it can be trusted though when I was reading KBWSG (Karl's bullet weight selection guide) he said I could use as little as a 200 grain bullet for cottontail rabbit and I don't know about you but that just seems a little light for me.


Liar. Pants on fire.


----------



## Dunkem

Karl said:


> When you were back in preschool and someone insulted you and said you were a hotdog, that is an ad hom.
> 
> Stands for ad hominem.
> 
> Latin.
> 
> See the attached list.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


 Oh, thanks (I just wanted your version)


----------



## willfish4food

brendo said:


> "What would an Alabama whitetail be classified as in the KBGCS (Karl's big game classification system). Do you mind that I call it that?" I'm going to start referring to it as such, and I don't want to miss represent your work.?
> 
> WILLFISH, you made my day with that comment haha. I'm not sure it can be trusted though when I was reading KBWSG (Karl's bullet weight selection guide) he said I could use as little as a 200 grain bullet for cottontail rabbit and I don't know about you but that just seems a little light for me.


I don't have much of a problem with using 200 grains on a cottontail, now if you start talking about jacks, that's a different story. Totally unethical!

My real issue with the KBWSG is the inclusion of 130 grain and 150 grain .243 bullets. I searched all over, and can't find them. I would love to use them as they sound really extra deadly. Maybe one day I can get on the exclusive list of people who can get them. Perhaps if I speak more condescendingly and read more interweb expert literature...


----------



## johnnycake

Girls, girls, you are all very pretty. 

The real truth of the matter is that clearly CPA Jeff should have used a 1568 grain slug in a sling shot and kept the shot under 12.45 yards.


----------



## bowgy

Dunkem said:


> o-||o-||opcorn: ahhhh whats an ad hom? I figured out anecdotes8) These seem to be the 2 most popular words on here?


It helps if you use it in a sentence:

"aw'm ad hom sick when aw ought ta be out huntun"

I'm sorry...... that was bad.


----------



## backcountry

Karl said:


> Liar. Pants on fire.


Couldn't take the disjointed threads anymore.

Appreciate the irony of the ad hominem example.

Other kinds of informal fallacies Karl has graciously provided us are: ad nauseum, appeal to authority, etc. In actuality i think this all ironically started with an anecdotal fallacy as i have yet to see evidence to support his initial claims.

It feels so long ago that this genie was let out of the bottle.


----------



## willfish4food

johnnycake said:


> Girls, girls, you are all very pretty.
> 
> The real truth of the matter is that clearly CPA Jeff should have used a 1568 grain slug in a sling shot and kept the shot under 12.45 yards.


Come on now cornbread, please stop with the ad hom. ad hom of course is short for ad hominem. It's Latin. I know because I'm smart. Here's a Wiki link to explain what I'm talking about since you're not as smart as me, and you don't know how to use google.

As far as the 1568 grain slug from a sling shot is concerned. The literature suggests at least a 1570grain slug if using a slingshot. Of course there are different strengths of slingshot... You'll find all kinds of anecdotal input from everyone on here, but trust me I've read the literature and using anything less than 1570 grains is asking for trouble and disrespectful to the elk.

Q.E.D. (Did I tell you I'm smart?)


----------



## toasty

i just read all 8 pages of this thread, highlight of my week so far. I am learning a ton of new things I thought I knew, but apparently didn't know.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish

Karl said:


> Thanks, Muscle, those are all interesting points.
> 
> For close up I suppose you could kill almost anything with almost anything.
> 
> That's why archery and slug shotguns work close up, archery within 35 yards and shotguns within 75 yards.
> 
> A muzzle loader is typically similar to a slug shotgun, however these days some of them are very sophisticated and can even reach out a coupe of hundred yards too. The danger in shooting something past 75 yards with a muzzleloader however is missing. And the energy bleeds down really fast too because of the low chamber pressures.
> 
> Note that there is a big difference in hydrostatic shock between a 300 and a 308. This is especially true if you hit a bone, like the shoulder or a rib.
> 
> 300's are bone breakers at almost any distance. 308's are not.
> 
> 300's fly very flat. 308's do not.
> 
> If you can take the recoil, then a 300 is the perfect hunting gun for North America. It is the only rifle you will ever need for anything unless you go to Africa.
> 
> 308's are not.
> 
> 270's are not bad either though. They are necked down 30-06's.


Picture 1 Antelope Doe

Picture 2 Top of Femur bone of Antelope Doe

Gun was a .30-06 using 168 gr Berger VLD at 303 yards, I was off in the wind drift.

With the Berger VLD's, in the bowling ball .30-06 game has not traveled far this year. 15 feet-ish total and some of that may be due to the deer sliding down the hill a bit.

I bet I could shoot the same bullet out of a .308 and have nearly the same effects as a .30-06.

The 300 win is a great caliber for longer ranges, but point blank ~300 yard shots there is very little difference in killing power.

There is a difference in energy, but bullet composition is a better prediction that caliber.

A 300 win FMJ is a lot less effective than a .308 AB, even though the .300 is screaming at a higher velocity.


----------



## Karl

MuscleWhitefish said:


> Picture 1 Antelope Doe
> 
> Picture 2 Top of Femur bone of Antelope Doe
> 
> Gun was a .30-06 using 168 gr Berger VLD at 303 yards, I was off in the wind drift.
> 
> With the Berger VLD's, in the bowling ball .30-06 game has not traveled far this year. 15 feet-ish total and some of that may be due to the deer sliding down the hill a bit.
> 
> I bet I could shoot the same bullet out of a .308 and have nearly the same effects as a .30-06.
> 
> The 300 win is a great caliber for longer ranges, but point blank ~300 yard shots there is very little difference in killing power.
> 
> There is a difference in energy, but bullet composition is a better prediction that caliber.
> 
> A 300 win FMJ is a lot less effective than a .308 AB, even though the .300 is screaming at a higher velocity.


It is not ethical for you to try to persuade anyone to use an underpowered gun.

I get that you like to debate.

So do Hillary and Donald.

'Tis the season for debating on TV.

Everybody wants to get into the action apparently.

Anecdote is still a fallacy.


----------



## berrysblaster

Still waiting Karl


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Vanilla

I take it back. Definitely tristate.


----------



## MuscleWhitefish

Karl said:


> It is not ethical for you to try to persuade anyone to use an underpowered gun.


50 BMG here I come.....

The Only Ethical Choice


----------



## colorcountrygunner

At this point I think it is safe to say that Karl has turned the tables and is trolling us. Good show, Karl. I'll admit it. You had me biting for awhile.


----------



## bowgy

willfish4food said:


> Come on now cornbread, please stop with the ad hom. ad hom of course is short for ad hominem. It's Latin. I know because I'm smart. Here's a Wiki link to explain what I'm talking about since you're not as smart as me, and you don't know how to use google.
> 
> As far as the 1568 grain slug from a sling shot is concerned. The literature suggests at least a 1570grain slug if using a slingshot. Of course there are different strengths of slingshot... You'll find all kinds of anecdotal input from everyone on here, but trust me I've read the literature and using anything less than 1570 grains is asking for trouble and disrespectful to the elk.
> 
> Q.E.D. (Did I tell you I'm smart?)


I afraid that you are using Biblical anecdotes and they only refer to lions bears and giants, not elk, and in my reading it doesn't reference grain size of projectiles that were used.:amen:


----------



## Dunkem

Goodys headache powder, mixing some up


----------



## Karl

colorcountrygunner said:


> At this point I think it is safe to say that Karl has turned the tables and is trolling us. Good show, Karl. I'll admit it. You had me biting for awhile.


Every new hunter has to figure out what kind of rifle to use for whatever kind of game they want to hunt.

A good hunter safety instructor will cover this.

I am gathering that not a lot of people have gone through hunter training.

The 30-30 has been infamous as a hunting gun when originally it was designed as an Indian gun. That issue has been with us since 1894 and has not gone away ever since.

The 30-30 is an Indian gun and NOT a great hunting gun.

This issue comes up again currently with the AR-10 and the AR-15 as well. These are anti personnel carbines and NOT appropriate for hunting.

The 243 and the 308 are the smallest lightest hunting guns which are legitimate for big game. And they are mostly appropriate for smaller game -- small deer and small pigs. Sure if you get close enough you can use it on a musk ox, but the ox will probably kill you. So would a griz.

The 30-06 and its necked down cousin the 270 are great all around great big game rifles. But they are not great for everything.

The 300 will kill anything in North America. As will the 338. Or the 375.

A 12 gauge with magnum slugs will kill anything in North America too. But you need to be close enough.

With archery tackle you can also kill anything, if you can get close enough. But this will be a slow death for the game animal. The advantage of this is that it will bleed the meat in the process and you will get better meat. The disadvantage is that if you chase grizzlies (in Canada or Alaska) with a bow and arrow your chances of surviving the hunt go way down.

In a good hunter safety class that would all be on the final exam.

I am not trolling you.

I just hate lies.

And I hate liars too.


----------



## Karl

MuscleWhitefish said:


> 50 BMG here I come.....
> 
> The Only Ethical Choice


In states that allow it, sure. The animal would never know what hit it.

It would wake up in the next world where all its family and friends would already be.

But a 300 is plenty. You don't need a 50 cal.


----------



## LostLouisianian

That settles it. I'm going to camp Williams and borrow a howitzer


----------



## johnnycake

If you use anything less than a Patriot missile airstrike for game larger than the Uintah Ground Squirrel you are a disgrace to hunters everywhere and a complete monster.


----------



## berrysblaster

Still waiting Karl


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## colorcountrygunner

dammit, karl


----------



## Rspeters

DallanC said:


> -DallanC


Now, several pages later, this thread has proven this time and time again. Some people are stuck in their own ways and no matter how many people try to help them understand, they just refuse to.


----------



## wyogoob

Uh...any thoughts on the best bullet weight for the 256 Newton?

.


----------



## wyogoob

backcountry said:


> Could we not bring politics into this? It's going to be a rough month and it's pleasant to have a place to come that isn't divisive based on political leanings.


Thank you sir.

.


----------



## Idratherbehunting

Karl said:


> Every new hunter has to figure out what kind of rifle to use for whatever kind of game they want to hunt.
> 
> A good hunter safety instructor will cover this.
> 
> I am gathering that not a lot of people have gone through hunter training.
> 
> The 30-30 has been infamous as a hunting gun when originally it was designed as an Indian gun. That issue has been with us since 1894 and has not gone away ever since.
> 
> The 30-30 is an Indian gun and NOT a great hunting gun.
> 
> This issue comes up again currently with the AR-10 and the AR-15 as well. These are anti personnel carbines and NOT appropriate for hunting.
> 
> The 243 and the 308 are the smallest lightest hunting guns which are legitimate for big game. And they are mostly appropriate for smaller game -- small deer and small pigs. Sure if you get close enough you can use it on a musk ox, but the ox will probably kill you. So would a griz.
> 
> The 30-06 and its necked down cousin the 270 are great all around great big game rifles. But they are not great for everything.
> 
> The 300 will kill anything in North America. As will the 338. Or the 375.
> 
> A 12 gauge with magnum slugs will kill anything in North America too. But you need to be close enough.
> 
> With archery tackle you can also kill anything, if you can get close enough. But this will be a slow death for the game animal. The advantage of this is that it will bleed the meat in the process and you will get better meat. The disadvantage is that if you chase grizzlies (in Canada or Alaska) with a bow and arrow your chances of surviving the hunt go way down.
> 
> In a good hunter safety class that would all be on the final exam.
> 
> I am not trolling you.
> 
> I just hate lies.
> 
> And I hate liars too.


So Karl, what is the AR10 chambered in typically, if it is not adequate to shoot any North American game?


----------



## colorcountrygunner

KAAAARRRRL!!!!!


----------



## brendo

colorcountrygunner said:


> KAAAARRRRL!!!!!


I think that this is what all the moderators have been yelling as they wake up from the nightmare they just had about moderating this week


----------



## ridgetop

This has to be one of the dumbest threads in a while!


----------



## LostLouisianian

It is entertaining though.....


----------



## Idratherbehunting

We are an exciting bunch...


----------



## 3arabians

ridgetop said:


> This has to be one of the dumbest threads in a while!


I know right!?! Sadly for me I keep checking back on this **** show....I don't understand the stupidity, so I keep looking to see if it will right itself. I'm tired......sleepy time.


----------



## berrysblaster

Damnation Karl if you don't tell where I can find a gol darned 130 grain bullet for my .243 I'm gonna head out and use one of my unethical 100 grainers to shoot a medium sized deer with!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rspeters

berrysblaster said:


> Damnation Karl if you don't tell where I can find a gol darned 130 grain bullet for my .243 I'm gonna head out and use one of my unethical 100 grainers to shoot a medium sized deer with!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think he blocked you...but it's funny for the rest of us so keep going.


----------



## Bob L.

Sorry to hear, Jeff.

Bob


----------



## APD

LostLouisianian said:


> That settles it. I'm going to camp Williams and borrow a howitzer


i have a few but like i said before, its no good on elk for me. Karl would like the DRT results though. Good luck with a shoulder mount.


----------



## Kevin D

Karl said:


> The 30-30 has been infamous as a hunting gun when originally it was designed as an Indian gun. That issue has been with us since 1894 and has not gone away ever since.
> 
> The 30-30 is an Indian gun and NOT a great hunting gun.


Huh?? Unlike the .45-70, the .30-40 Krag, or the .30-06, the .30-30 has never been widely adopted by any military as an anti personnel
cartridge. So an Indian gun?? By 1895 when the .30-30 was introduced the Indian wars were pretty much a thing of the past. Besides, the lever rifles the .30-30 was designed around was never a good fit for military use because a prone soldier has to roll the rifle on it's side to work the action. But as a hunting gun the .30-30 levers are quick, easy, and deadly at close range which is why they were and continue to be a popular hunting round today.

What was that you said about lies and liars?? Sounds like you have been watching too many old Hollywood movies.


----------



## LostLouisianian

I'm kind of rethinking everything. Perhaps a laser guided TOW missile would be more appropriate for elk....what do you think?


----------



## backcountry

Color country said "At this point I think it is safe to say that Karl has turned the tables and is trolling us. Good show, Karl. I'll admit it. You had me biting for awhile." (Didnt notice missing quote initially)



^This

And its still working. From his comments in the gear thread he made it clear he didn't know or care that the primary context is Utah. Every poker player has his tell and that was one of his. 

He successfully derailed two threads.


----------



## cdbright

well played Karl , well played


----------



## LostLouisianian

This thread reminds me of some of the stupid youtube videos. You know the ones where some moron does something extremely stupid and hurts himself. You know it's dumb and maybe even staged but there is something about it that keeps drawing you back to watch it every so often...:grin:


----------



## cdbright

growing up deer hunting in Minnesota chasing white tails through thick brush and having to be the one to go "PUSH" woods so dad could stand in the field and drop the monsters as they jumped out , the 30-30 was the most perfect gun PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I remember i jumped one of the biggest 8 pointers i have ever seen and my step brother shot him as he barreled across the field but that deer let me get about 3 feet from him before he got up and scared the living $hit out of me, i thought he was going to plow me over , but luckily he went the other way and got shot hahahah he is still hanging on the wall in the bar in our little town in OKLEE, MNOOO°)OO


----------



## derekp1999

LostLouisianian said:


> This thread reminds me of some of the stupid youtube videos. You know the ones where some moron does something extremely stupid and hurts himself. You know it's dumb and maybe even staged but there is something about it that keeps drawing you back to watch it every so often...:grin:


Like a train wreck... I don't want to watch but I can't look away!!!


----------



## bekins24

This is my favorite thread. Can't help but keep reading. I don't think I could ever bring myself to ignore anyone cause it's just too funny to read all the dialogue. hahaha


----------



## berrysblaster

If I tell Carl that I own a 270 will he unblock me?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 3arabians

berrysblaster said:


> If I tell Carl that I own a 270 will he unblock me?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Make sure you say you shoot 219 grains out of that 270. That should do it.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

cdbright said:


> growing up deer hunting in Minnesota chasing white tails through thick brush and having to be the one to go "PUSH" woods so dad could stand in the field and drop the monsters as they jumped out , the 30-30 was the most perfect gun PERIOD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I remember i jumped one of the biggest 8 pointers i have ever seen and my step brother shot him as he barreled across the field but that deer let me get about 3 feet from him before he got up and scared the living $hit out of me, i thought he was going to plow me over , but luckily he went the other way and got shot hahahah he is still hanging on the wall in the bar in our little town in OKLEE, MNOOO°)OO


I've always loved this story.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

Kevin D said:


> Huh?? Unlike the .45-70, the .30-40 Krag, or the .30-06, the .30-30 has never been widely adopted by any military as an anti personnel
> cartridge. So an Indian gun?? By 1895 when the .30-30 was introduced the Indian wars were pretty much a thing of the past. Besides, the lever rifles the .30-30 was designed around was never a good fit for military use because a prone soldier has to roll the rifle on it's side to work the action. But as a hunting gun the .30-30 levers are quick, easy, and deadly at close range which is why they were and continue to be a popular hunting round today.
> 
> What was that you said about lies and liars?? Sounds like you have been watching too many old Hollywood movies.


One time on a hunting page on Facebook someone posed the question: "Which cartridge has killed more big game, the .30-06 or the .30-30?" I swear at least half a dozen people answered that the .30-30 has killed more animals because that is what they used to wipe out the buffalo with. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.


----------



## Karl

3arabians said:


> Make sure you say you shoot 219 grains out of that 270. That should do it.


As far as I can tell it only goes up to 170 grains and you would need to load your own.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3...ybrid-match-hollow-point-boat-tail-box-of-100


----------



## Karl

bekins24 said:


> This is my favorite thread. Can't help but keep reading. I don't think I could ever bring myself to ignore anyone cause it's just too funny to read all the dialogue. hahaha


Similarly most people cannot change their bad habits either, whether things they had been taught by their own bad parents or things they picked up erroneously on their own.

That is the whole issue with underpowered rifles and hunting.

Never ceases to amaze me what people will bring out into the field with them. Can't really honestly call these people hunters. They are mostly just shooters.


----------



## Karl

backcountry said:


> Color country said "At this point I think it is safe to say that Karl has turned the tables and is trolling us. Good show, Karl. I'll admit it. You had me biting for awhile." (Didnt notice missing quote initially)
> 
> ^This
> 
> And its still working. From his comments in the gear thread he made it clear he didn't know or care that the primary context is Utah. Every poker player has his tell and that was one of his.
> 
> He successfully derailed two threads.


I still need to research whether it is illegal to quarter or half a deer carcass when packing it out in Utah. Every state is different.

That would also suggest that boning (de-boning) meat off a carcass is also illegal. Like I said I still need to research if those statements by someone else are valid or just their own misinterpretation.

Alluding to the open issues as an ad hom is a fallacy.

I am putting anyone who ad hom's anyone else on my ignore list.


----------



## Karl

Kevin D said:


> Huh?? Unlike the .45-70, the .30-40 Krag, or the .30-06, the .30-30 has never been widely adopted by any military as an anti personnel
> cartridge. So an Indian gun?? By 1895 when the .30-30 was introduced the Indian wars were pretty much a thing of the past. Besides, the lever rifles the .30-30 was designed around was never a good fit for military use because a prone soldier has to roll the rifle on it's side to work the action. But as a hunting gun the .30-30 levers are quick, easy, and deadly at close range which is why they were and continue to be a popular hunting round today.
> 
> What was that you said about lies and liars?? Sounds like you have been watching too many old Hollywood movies.


I take it you have never heard of the 1903 Springfield then?

You must be pretty young and/or you don't read a lot.

I'm going to let you pass on this your first ad hom since you seem to have an education problem. Good luck with that.


----------



## Karl

Idratherbehunting said:


> So Karl, what is the AR10 chambered in typically, if it is not adequate to shoot any North American game?


Before you pick a gun to go hunting with you should study what that gun was designed for.

Then you should consider sticking to that original purpose.

AR-10's were definitely not designed for hunting.

They were a bastardization of the US Rifle M-14 by Stoner.

Just in case you are somewhat curious.


----------



## Karl

This thread is actually excellent for learning who the intellectually challenged are in terms of hunting and firearms, and moving them to the ignore list.

Ad hom's are the most grotesque indication of preschool intellect in a fully grown human.

But other sophistry fallacies that your mothers used to try to get you to clean up your room (unsuccessfully in most cases) also fall in that category.

Here is the full list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


----------



## Idratherbehunting

Karl said:


> *I take it you have never heard of the 1903 Springfield then?*
> 
> You must be pretty young and/or you don't read a lot.
> 
> I'm going to let you pass on this your first ad hom since you seem to have an education problem. Good luck with that.


The one chambered in 30-06 and used from 1903 through World War II. The one adopted by the military, to be used as an anti-personnel firearm, just like Kevin said it had been? Re-read his comment before accusing him of having an education issue, as you are the one who struggled with reading comprehension in reading that post.

I am not sure if you are a troll or not, but you are successful in being something else.


----------



## NVDuckin

Will somebody please pass the popcorn? I ran out.


----------



## Karl

Idratherbehunting said:


> The one chambered in 30-06 and used from 1903 through World War II. The one adopted by the military, to be used as an anti-personnel firearm, just like Kevin said it had been? Re-read his comment before accusing him of having an education issue, as you are the one who struggled with reading comprehension in reading that post.
> 
> I am not sure if you are a troll or not, but you are successful in being something else.


Well then it looks like you have contradicted your own original post.

Do you see why?

Your last 2 posts are inconsistent.


----------



## willfish4food

Karl said:


> This thread is actually excellent for learning who the intellectually challenged are in terms of hunting and firearms, and moving them to the ignore list.


The only correct thing I think I've read from Karl. But if we all put Karl on the ignore list, we'd lose the entertainment value.


----------



## CPAjeff

Sorry to keep this thread going, but I just couldn't resist. Self-control is something I hope to obtain as I go through puberty and into adulthood.

As the ventor (Latin for hunter) is in studium (Latin for pursuit) of his/her laci (Latin for quarry), there comes a time when the ventor becomes the jaculator (Latin for shooter). The ventor and the jaculator simul (Latin for coexist) within the hominem (Latin for person); and therefore, the moment when the ventor chambers the .243 cartridge - loaded with the 130 grain bullet, the ventor has now become the jaculator.

You cannot have the ventor without the jaculator.

Super Quem Stabam! (Latin for Rock On!)



*Thank heavens for Google translate, I feel like I should get some honorary Ph.D. in Latin now.


----------



## DallanC

My wife's 243 put big holes in one side and out the other of a Caribou using 100gr Partitions. 

-DallanC


----------



## Idratherbehunting

Karl said:


> Before you pick a gun to go hunting with you should study what that gun was designed for.
> 
> Then you should consider sticking to that original purpose.
> 
> AR-10's were definitely not designed for hunting.
> 
> They were a bastardization of the US Rifle M-14 by Stoner.
> 
> Just in case you are somewhat curious.


OK. I'll bite. Please explain to me the ballistic difference of the same cartridge fired out of an AR10 chambered in a .308 and then your favorite brand and model of hunting rifle in .308? And please provide appropriate citations for your data. Not wikipedia.


----------



## willfish4food

DallanC said:


> My wife's 243 put big holes in one side and out the other of a Caribou using 100gr Partitions.
> 
> -DallanC


Yeah, but just think of what she could have done with a 130 or 150 grain bullet out of that 243. That is, assuming you could manufacture your own, and assuming it didn't cover the flash hole when you seated it, and assuming it came with pop out fins for stabilization after it clears the rifle barrel. Just ask Karl, he'll get you set up right. He's really smart, AND he's read all the literature so...


----------



## LostLouisianian

This thread is best read if you've had too many adult beverages


----------



## Idratherbehunting

Two 308 rifles, one in the "anti-personnel" platform of an AR10, designed for law enforcement:

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/BAStealth

And one chambered in a lightweight hunting rifle:

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/11LH

Please help me understand how these two rifles will shoot differently if firing the same cartridge.


----------



## Karl

Idratherbehunting said:


> Two 308 rifles, one in the "anti-personnel" platform of an AR10, designed for law enforcement:
> 
> http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/BAStealth
> 
> And one chambered in a lightweight hunting rifle:
> 
> http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/11LH
> 
> Please help me understand how these two rifles will shoot differently if firing the same cartridge.


You are off topic.

There was no issue with the 308 as a hunting cartridge.

If you are trying to justify an AR-10 design to hunting based on a completely different bolt action design in the same caliber, then your fallacy is false analogy.

Here are the fallacies again. You need to memorize this list if you want to be a debater according to APDA rules. Otherwise you just sound like a blithering sophist or and old woman:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


----------



## Karl

DallanC said:


> My wife's 243 put big holes in one side and out the other of a Caribou using 100gr Partitions.
> 
> -DallanC


Make sure you go back to your other post in the other thread and study my response and citation regarding your comment about quartering, halving, and boning-out (deboning) carcasses.

Your statement is unjustified in the Utah hunting regs, which I have cited.


----------



## Idratherbehunting

Karl said:


> You are off topic.
> 
> There was no issue with the 308 as a hunting cartridge.
> 
> If you are trying to justify an AR-10 design to hunting based on a completely different bolt action design in the same caliber, then your fallacy is false analogy.
> 
> Here are the fallacies again. You need to memorize this list if you want to be a debater according to APDA rules. Otherwise you just sound like a blithering sophist or and old woman:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


Well, since the AR-10 was originally chambered in 308, and you said the AR-10's ballistics were not appropriate hunting rifle, I believe you were the one who called into question the efficacy of the 308 as a hunting cartridge. YOu are either mistaken, a troll, or intellectually challenged. I have not determined which.

However, as you are incredibly gifted at ridiculing, belittling, and demeaning others, all the while dancing around questions and never actually "debating". Please go back to your mother's basement and continue being the master debater.


----------



## DallanC

If people want more fun reading, they should visit this thread where I pointed out Karl's method of meat recovery is technically illegal under:

UTAH ADMINISTRATIVE CODE R657-5-17. Tagging.

http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r657/r657-005.htm#T17

http://utahwildlife.net/forum/19-ge...7-my-solo-elk-hunt-gear-list.html#post1676921

LOL... back petal all you want Karl, the law is very very clear.

-DallanC


----------



## bekins24

Karl said:


> I'm going to let you pass on this your first ad hom since you seem to have an education problem. Good luck with that.





Karl said:


> This thread is actually excellent for learning who the intellectually challenged are in terms of hunting and firearms, and moving them to the ignore list.
> 
> Ad hom's are the most grotesque indication of preschool intellect in a fully grown human.
> 
> But other sophistry fallacies that your mothers used to try to get you to clean up your room (unsuccessfully in most cases) also fall in that category.
> 
> Here is the full list:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies





Karl said:


> You need to memorize this list if you want to be a debater according to APDA rules. Otherwise you just sound like a blithering sophist or and old woman:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


........ Aren't you using an ad hom here? I mean I don't have a degree in this kind of stuff and I wear flat brimmed hats, so I might be way off but you seem to call out people who use ad homs but then you use them every other post. Just trying to learn when it's acceptable/not acceptable to use ad homs.


----------



## bekins24

Dang it Dallan you stole the top of the page from me. :yell: You're such a <censored ad hom>


----------



## willfish4food

DC, his chosen method to justify why you're wrong is to completely change how he said he would do things. And even then he got it wrong and is still breaking the law. 

My guess is rather than admitting he's wrong, he'll deflect with some other off topic piece of nonsense. Some people can't even admit they are wrong to a bunch of strangers on the internet that they've never met. Sad really.


----------



## bowgy

HaHa, I love this thread......crap... I just ran out of popcorn....now I have to do a snack run.


----------



## DallanC

To be honest I don't care how he packs out his kill, nor do I even know if a DWR officer would cite someone doing it that way... but, technically it is illegal, and when giving out advice on how to do things, its good for new hunters reading, to know any "gotchas" that might not otherwise be obvious.


-DallanC


----------



## CPAjeff

Karl said:


> There was no issue with the 308 as a hunting cartridge.


I guess you forgot how condescending you were to another forum member about his use of a .308 and now there is no issue with the .308??

Here is the link if you have forgotten:
http://utahwildlife.net/forum/12-big-game/161081-elk-ammo.html

Karl ... Karl ... Karl ...


----------



## DallanC

My next gun will be a AR10 in 7mm08. Just because I can.


-DallanC


----------



## Idratherbehunting

DallanC said:


> My next gun will be a AR10 in 7mm08. Just because I can.
> 
> -DallanC


That Savage AR10 that I posted looks pretty awesome. I think it would be fun to get one of those. I guess I'll have to customize it a little afterwards to get it to shoot a 7mm08 now.


----------



## martymcfly73

DallanC said:


> To be honest I don't care how he packs out his kill, nor do I even know if a DWR officer would cite someone doing it that way... but, technically it is illegal, and when giving out advice on how to do things, its good for new hunters reading, to know any "gotchas" that might not otherwise be obvious.
> 
> -DallanC


And you just made Karls ignore list....


----------



## martymcfly73




----------



## DallanC

LMAO


-DallanC


----------



## johnnycake

Enough with the popcorn! I'm waiting for some of goob's signature ptarmigan liver flavored speedgoat chitlins!

Lost, can you pass the hot sauce?


----------



## Karl

DallanC said:


> If people want more fun reading, they should visit this thread where I pointed out Karl's method of meat recovery is technically illegal under:
> 
> UTAH ADMINISTRATIVE CODE R657-5-17. Tagging.
> 
> http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/code/r657/r657-005.htm#T17
> 
> http://utahwildlife.net/forum/19-ge...7-my-solo-elk-hunt-gear-list.html#post1676921
> 
> LOL... back petal all you want Karl, the law is very very clear.
> 
> -DallanC


You're the one who will need to backpedal because as I pointed out there is no justification in the statutes, regs, or instructions for your statement.

You can pretend there is. But that is just yet another sophist fallacy trick.

That you are misleading others is unethical.

Goodbye forever.


----------



## Loke

Karl said:


> Goodbye forever.


Promise?


----------



## LostLouisianian




----------



## Charina

Karl said:


> There was no issue with the 308 as a hunting cartridge.





Karl said:


> I don't know of anyone who justifies elk hunting with a 308.
> 
> There are probably YouTube videos about it though.
> 
> I suppose this is probably no different than bowhunting elk though.
> 
> The animal is likely going to walk off and drop somewhere ... maybe.


.308 is no different than bow hunting for elk, but there is no issue with it as an elk cartridge. Clear as mud.


----------



## martymcfly73

Karl said:


> You're the one who will need to backpedal because as I pointed out there is no justification in the statutes, regs, or instructions for your statement.
> 
> You can pretend there is. But that is just yet another sophist fallacy trick.
> 
> That you are misleading others is unethical.
> 
> Goodbye forever.


Dallan was just trying to help. Don't let his response "trigger" you and send you running to your "safe space." Don't offend so easily.


----------



## willfish4food

Signed: Ignored and Proud


----------



## bowgy

Karl said:


> You're the one who will need to backpedal because as I pointed out there is no justification in the statutes, regs, or instructions for your statement.
> 
> You can pretend there is. But that is just yet another sophist fallacy trick.
> 
> That you are misleading others is unethical.
> 
> *Goodbye foreve*r.


UH OH!:shock:


----------



## Karl

Charina said:


> .308 is no different than bow hunting for elk, but there is no issue with it as an elk cartridge. Clear as mud.


In your anecdotal opinion perhaps not.


----------



## bowgy

martymcfly73 said:


>


Marty, do you know how hard it is to get diet coke and snot cleaned out of a keyboard?


----------



## Karl

Loke said:


> Promise?


He is gone yes. Relegated to the dregs of the ignore list.


----------



## bowgy

Karl said:


> He is gone yes. Relegated to the dregs of the ignore list.


OH Whew! For a minute there I thought you were gone;-)


----------



## johnnycake

You'd think it was March or something and there weren't any open hunting seasons right now the way this thread is going!


----------



## LostLouisianian

I really have been giving this thread a lot of thought and Karl is right. To have an animal suffer because of undergunning it is simply just cruel. Due to this fact I have revised my weapon of choice to get an elk. Does anyone know where there is a nice herd of elk within 40 miles of a railroad track?


----------



## wyogoob

LostLouisianian said:


> I really have been giving this thread a lot of thought and Karl is right. To have an animal suffer because of undergunning it is simply just cruel. Due to this fact I have revised my weapon of choice to get an elk. Does anyone know where there is a nice herd of elk within 40 miles of a railroad track?


Open sights; cool.

.


----------



## LostLouisianian

wyogoob said:


> Open sights; cool.
> 
> .


Yeah this is a 25,600 Newton.... :grin:


----------



## Vanilla

If everyone just posts that Karl is stupid, he'll put you on his ignore list for the ad hom. If everyone is on his ignore list, he won't see any posts to respond to. 

Seems like a reasonable reaction to the fungus.


----------



## LostLouisianian

Vanilla said:


> If everyone just posts that Karl is stupid, he'll put you on his ignore list for the ad hom. If everyone is on his ignore list, he won't see any posts to respond to.
> 
> Seems like a reasonable reaction to the fungus.


It's ok I had him on my ignore list after 36 hours of him posting his first post.


----------



## willfish4food

The sad thing is, I don't think Karl is trolling anybody. I think he really believes what he's posting. A troll would not put the people he's trolling on an ignore list where he wouldn't get to see his handy work. I feel a little bad for Karl, but I really feel bad for the unsuspecting person who doesn't know any better and believes Karl's advice.


----------



## Idratherbehunting

willfish4food said:


> The sad thing is, I don't think Karl is trolling anybody. I think he really believes what he's posting. A troll would not put the people he's trolling on an ignore list where he wouldn't get to see his handy work. I feel a little bad for Karl, but I really feel bad for the unsuspecting person who doesn't know any better and believes Karl's advice.


The poor advice was the part that bothered me the most. Oh well.


----------



## bowgy

willfish4food said:


> The sad thing is, I don't think Karl is trolling anybody. I think he really believes what he's posting. A troll would not put the people he's trolling on an ignore list where he wouldn't get to see his handy work. I feel a little bad for Karl, but I really feel bad for the unsuspecting person who doesn't know any better and believes Karl's advice.


What? *WHAT????* You mean I didn't have to throw away all my .308 150 and 180 grain bullets and go out and buy 20 boxes of 200 grain bullets?

Crap I hope the garbage man didn't come today


----------



## Idratherbehunting

bowgy said:


> What? *WHAT????* You mean I didn't have to throw away all my .308 150 and 180 grain bullets and go out and buy 20 boxes of 200 grain bullets?
> 
> Crap I hope the garbage man didn't come today


Don't worry. I saw them and snagged them. I'll sell them back to you for a reasonable price.


----------



## johnnycake

Idratherbehunting said:


> Don't worry. I saw them and snagged them. I'll sell them back to you for a reasonable price.


Play this right man and you might be able to steal his lucky hidden flattie. You'll be **** deep in LE elk tags for the rest of your life!


----------



## bowgy

Idratherbehunting said:


> Don't worry. I saw them and snagged them. I'll sell them back to you for a reasonable price.


Whew... thanks man.;-)


----------



## bowgy

johnnycake said:


> Play this right man and you might be able to steal his lucky hidden flattie. You'll be **** deep in LE elk tags for the rest of your life!


I'm not going to tell you where the big bulls are for your late hunt if you keep telling everyone my secrets

I did run into a bait station with a couple of salt licks, corn scattered all over the ground and a grain feeder attached to a tree that I have coordinates for.

But the late hunt will depend on the snow, elk have been taken all three hunts so far from high up to down to the sage brush, so they are all over the unit right now.


----------



## Idratherbehunting

johnnycake said:


> Play this right man and you might be able to steal his lucky hidden flattie. You'll be **** deep in LE elk tags for the rest of your life!


Can you walk me how to play this? I don't know if I can deal with this type of pressure. I'm as nervous as a guy who just drew a Henry's archery tag with 3 points... I'm kind of panicking that I won't play this right and I'll squander my opportunity.


----------



## berrysblaster

So since I'm back in Karl's good graces can he please tell me where to find 130 grain .243 shells?? I'm using the 3rd or 2nd (I can't remember English) since referring to him in the 1st person doesn't seem to warrant a response.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## johnnycake

> So since I'm back in Karl's good graces can he please tell me where to find 130 grain .243 shells?? I'm using the 3rd or 2nd (I can't remember English) since referring to him in the 1st person doesn't seem to warrant a response.


Pretty sure it is 3rd person singular still. He/she/it/Karl/dumb***



> Originally Posted by johnnycake View Post
> Play this right man and you might be able to steal his lucky hidden flattie. You'll be **** deep in LE elk tags for the rest of your life!
> I'm not going to tell you where the big bulls are for your late hunt if you keep telling everyone my secrets
> 
> I did run into a bait station with a couple of salt licks, corn scattered all over the ground and a grain feeder attached to a tree that I have coordinates for.
> 
> But the late hunt will depend on the snow, elk have been taken all three hunts so far from high up to down to the sage brush, so they are all over the unit right now.


Apologies....Idratherbehunting, sorry, I've been bought you're on your own


----------



## colorcountrygunner

1I and lonetree don't seem so bad now, huh guys?


----------



## Rspeters

colorcountrygunner said:


> 1I and lonetree don't seem so bad now, huh guys?


This thread is actually very reminiscent of some of the old 1eye and Lonetree threads.


----------



## Karl

wyogoob said:


> Open sights; cool.
> 
> .


For heavy arty like in that photo, there is a lensatic sight on the side of the gun somewhere.

It may be on the other side in that photo, or it may not be mounted yet.

These sights are not left mounted on the gun when the gun is in transit since they are precision instruments. They are taken off and carried in a metal box while in transit.

Then an "aiming circle" which is a reverse-sight is set up and surveyed to a location. Today they use GPS. Back in WW2 they used aerial photographs for location and celestial navigation -- the horizontal angle between Polaris and Kochab (beta) -- to get an exact azimuth:

http://ordnancemarine.com/tamcns/e-tamcns/e0180-m2a2-aiming-circle/

The gun can then be aimed from this exact astronomical azimuth, and then distance to the target can be estimated and bracketed with successive adjustment firings by varying the charges (which are little bags of smokeless powder propellant) and the angle of the gun.


----------



## CPAjeff

Karl! The first 28 seconds are for you -


----------



## LostLouisianian

Sometimes you just have to say it like it is.....


----------



## berrysblaster

Does anyone think Amy could help here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## johnnycake

Only if I ask her if I can use my Panguitch Late Any Weapon Elk tag anywhere else in the state.


----------



## bowgy

johnnycake said:


> Only if I ask her if I can use my Panguitch Late Any Weapon Elk tag anywhere else in the state.


Just tell them someone from the southern region told you that you could use it on the Nebo and you should be good to go


----------



## bowgy

berrysblaster said:


> So since I'm back in Karl's good graces can he please tell me where to find 130 grain .243 shells?? I'm using the 3rd or 2nd (I can't remember English) since referring to him in the 1st person doesn't seem to warrant a response.
> 
> Just get some .308 in 200 grain and spin them on a grinder, by the time you get to .243 they should be about 130 grain;-)


----------



## johnnycake

bowgy said:


> Just tell them someone from the southern region told you that you could use it on the Nebo and you should be good to go


That is only if I want to hunt in the Central or Northern area of the state though, right? Say somebody ID's a giant hanging out over on the dutton, boulder, or pahvant I had better call the central region then, right?

I think I'm getting the hang of this.


----------



## Kevin D

Karl said:


> I take it you have never heard of the 1903 Springfield then?
> 
> You must be pretty young and/or you don't read a lot.
> 
> I'm going to let you pass on this your first ad hom since you seem to have an education problem. Good luck with that.


Learn me some wisdom then O learned one, where can I read about the Model 1903 Springfield as adopted by the military chambered in .30-30?? Hell, the one I have sitting in my gun safe manufactured in 1918 is chambered in the *.30-06 Springfield*....WTF?? :shock:

As for being pretty young and/or don't read a lot? You got me there, mostly I just look at the pictures. Nonetheless, I'm still guessing I have gray hairs on my scrotum older than you are son!! (OH NO, ANOTHER AD HOM!!!) :mrgreen:


----------



## wyogoob

Karl said:


> For heavy arty like in that photo, there is a lensatic sight on the side of the gun somewhere.
> 
> It may be on the other side in that photo, or it may not be mounted yet.
> 
> These sights are not left mounted on the gun when the gun is in transit since they are precision instruments. They are taken off and carried in a metal box while in transit.
> 
> Then an "aiming circle" which is a reverse-sight is set up and surveyed to a location. Today they use GPS. Back in WW2 they used aerial photographs for location and celestial navigation -- the horizontal angle between Polaris and Kochab (beta) -- to get an exact azimuth:
> 
> http://ordnancemarine.com/tamcns/e-tamcns/e0180-m2a2-aiming-circle/
> 
> The gun can then be aimed from this exact astronomical azimuth, and then distance to the target can be estimated and bracketed with successive adjustment firings by varying the charges (which are little bags of smokeless powder propellant) and the angle of the gun.


Thanks.

.


----------



## wyogoob

wyogoob said:


> Uh...any thoughts on the best bullet weight for the 256 Newton?
> 
> .


bump

.


----------



## Karl

Nice gun. Never heard of it before.

Very similar to a 308 in terms of energy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.256_Newton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester


----------



## johnnycake

Karl said:


> Nice gun. Never heard of it before.
> 
> Very similar to a 308 in terms of energy.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.256_Newton
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Winchester


Ok, so...is it a good or bad elk calibre then? I can't remember which version of the .308 we're currently on since it seems that it has been stated as both...Oh Great and Merciful Karl! Reign down upon us destitute ones your ever illuminating wisdom!


----------



## Karl

johnnycake said:


> Ok, so...is it a good or bad elk calibre then? I can't remember which version of the .308 we're currently on since it seems that it has been stated as both...Oh Great and Merciful Karl! Reign down upon us destitute ones your ever illuminating wisdom!


 So you want my opinion again?


----------



## bowgy

Well to kind of bring it back on topic...... just got the 4 wheeler's loaded and going to take the rest of the day off, head to the cabin and see if I can find me a cow elk, hope that I don't have the same experience as CPAJeff

I will keep a look out for a big one for you cornbread, uuhh I mean johnnycake, don't want you to go to another unit, but if you do just tell them bowgy said it was ok to hunt that unit with your tag because I heard it was ok from my first cousins uncles wifes cat groomer that heard it from her step sisters mom who's uncle used to work for the DWR, 

All Ya'all play nice now and don't anyone get banned while I'm gone and I will check back in next week.


----------



## Dunkem

Good luck Bowgy!!


----------



## BPturkeys

Holy mackerel, I read the whole thing...OMG Karl, your lack of understanding of ballistics is astounding and your lack of actual field experience killing animals is, well, work class. But your mastery of Troll gamesmanship is impeccable. You've kept some of these pool fools crying for days now. Keep up the good work


----------



## Karl

BPturkeys said:


> Holy mackerel, I read the whole thing...OMG Karl, your lack of understanding of ballistics is astounding and your lack of actual field experience killing animals is, well, work class. But your mastery of Troll gamesmanship is impeccable. You've kept some of these pool fools crying for days now. Keep up the good work


I think everyone has their own rudimentary concepts about ballistics. You and I both do, apparently.

I have found that if you don't want the animal to get away, you need to push the most lead the fastest you can in terms of recoil pain endurance.

I always recommend overkill rather than underkill.

It's not to say that any particular gun is totally bad.

It's more of a matter of risk probabilities.

If you want the risk to be lower, you push more lead faster and you get closer.

I would be surprised if anyone would disagree with that notion.

In terms of failure analysis, I think mature hunters should be able to share their details with others for the benefit of all.

If there are any ad hom's or insults in all that I can't see them.

Who knows, maybe and maybe not.

I feel bad that the bull elk got away from the thread O/P's friend.

But I don't know what that feels like because I have always been lucky enough to find my deer by their blood trails. For bowhunting I will not chase a buck right away. And for rifle hunting they have always dropped in their tracks.

Maybe I have just been luckier.


----------



## gdog

Karl said:


> But I don't know what that feels like because I have always been lucky enough to find my deer by their blood trails. For bowhunting I will not chase a buck right away. And for rifle hunting they have always dropped in their tracks.
> 
> Maybe I have just been luckier.


Karl...lets see some pics of all these successful hunts....we're all suckers for some good hero shots:clap2:


----------



## LostLouisianian

gdog said:


> Karl...lets see some pics of all these successful hunts....we're all suckers for some good hero shots:clap2:


And please post that picture of the 1903 in .30-30 too, that has got to be worth a lot moolah.


----------



## Charina

Karl said:


> I would be surprised if anyone would disagree with that notion.


Chuck Hawkes apparently does from my recollection of his writings. Any gun that causes flinch is worse than a smaller more accurate-for-that-shooter caliber. And whether we are mature enough to admit it or not, flinch can quickly become an issue without going magnum or heavy slugs.


----------



## colorcountrygunner

This thread was more fun back before I realized Karl was a troll. It's like the WWE now. It still has entertainment value in a circusy kinda way, but you just know it's not the real deal. It's like watching some over the top action movie that you know is unrealistic as all hell, but you just kinda have to turn your brain off and go with it to enjoy it.


----------



## Rspeters

gdog said:


> Karl...lets see some pics of all these successful hunts....we're all suckers for some good hero shots:clap2:


I can see right through this...you just want to see if he has any teeth.


----------



## CPAjeff

bowgy said:


> Well to kind of bring it back on topic...... just got the 4 wheeler's loaded and going to take the rest of the day off, head to the cabin and see if I can find me a cow elk, hope that I don't have the same experience as CPAJeff


Ouch!

Well after my "failure analysis," I see things in a different light. I should have been using a 50 BMG on my muzzleloader hunt. 

Good luck on your hunt!


----------



## Karl

Charina said:


> Chuck Hawkes apparently does from my recollection of his writings. Any gun that causes flinch is worse than a smaller more accurate-for-that-shooter caliber. And whether we are mature enough to admit it or not, flinch can quickly become an issue without going magnum or heavy slugs.


I agree that you do not want a gun so powerful it causes you to flinch.

You need to find out what your own limit is.

That has been my point all along.


----------



## Charina

Karl said:


> That has been my point all along.


Really? I read over and over that your point was that anything under 200grn was unethical. Accuracy be dammed as long as you are pushing as much lead as fast as possible is the only conclusion I've reached about your position from your posts.


----------



## ridgetop

CPAjeff, I'm sorry to hear about your lost bull.
I've been there, done that and it stinks.
When it happened, I couldn't sleep at night and I felt like throwing up all the time but in time, it passed.

About bullet weights, I do believe that certain calibers have a better all around weight that has the best results.
Example: 
.270 (150 gr.)
30-06 (165 gr.)
7mm mag. (160 gr.)
.300 win. mag. (180 gr.)
and so on.
I also believe that when it comes to making a bad shot, which flat out happens sometimes.
A magnum time gun will and can "make up the difference" with more *Collateral damage* to the animal than a standard non magnum type rifle/ bullet.
Which will kill the animal faster.
I've seen it with my own eyes.

As for muzzy bullets, I used a 250 gr. hornady sst to kill my last two bucks but the bucks ran a little ways ( 50 to 100 yards)before going down.
I would not use the 250 gr. sst for elk.
My cousin and his son used a barns mz 250 gr. and they killed their bucks dead on impact. 
The barns mushroomed very nicely but the sst fragmented really bad on both my bucks.


----------



## Karl

Charina said:


> Really? I read over and over that your point was that anything under 200grn was unethical. Accuracy be dammed as long as you are pushing as much lead as fast as possible is the only conclusion I've reached about your position from your posts.


There is certainly no guarantee that once you discover your own limit, that you will be able to pursue any quarry on this Earth with it.

Each gun is designed with a certain purpose in mind.

The ethical issue is certainly valid.


----------



## bowgy

CPAjeff said:


> Ouch!
> 
> Well after my "failure analysis," I see things in a different light. I should have been using a 50 BMG on my muzzleloader hunt.
> 
> Good luck on your hunt!


I lost a bull once on a 301 archery hunt on the Dutton, perfect 18 yard shot broadside and when I released the fletchings appeared right behind the front shoulder, which I thought was perfect, he ran about 100 yards and laid down, I watched him for 45 minutes and he got up and started to walk off, I gave him another 30 minutes and went to find him, not a spec of blood anywhere, I searched for him for 5 hours until it got dark, had a friend come up and help me look all day the next day and even went back 2 weeks later to see if we could find him by smell.

I was sick and felt pretty bad, only animal that I have lost.

The funny thing, not funny ha ha, but funny strange, is that out of the first three bull elk I shot with a bow, (he was my second one), the two I recovered were bad hits and the one I lost was what I thought was a perfect shot. The first bull I shot low and hit him in his right front knee, it hit an artery and he only went 100 yards, best blood trail I have seen, my third bull jumped the string and I hit him in front of his left hit and it came out his right hip and hit the femur artery and he ran 65 yards and dropped.

You just never know how the animal will react and what happens to the arrow or bullet when it hits.

Whoo Hoo Top of page


----------

