# Primitive Weapons Vs Modern Weapons



## wilcum1977 (Dec 10, 2016)

Is the hunter that uses a recurve any less of a hunter than the one who uses a high powered rifle with a high class scope to harvest game? Surely, much of it is the ethics and values we were raised with. For the sake of the discussion let's give a scenario. Hunter A, who harvests a beautiful Bull Elk with archery equipment. Now setting aside that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Hunter B, harvests a 380+ inch Bull with a 28 Nosler topped with a Swarovski Z8i the kill shot at 800+ yards. Who's the better Hunter?_O\\


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## bowhunt3r4l1f3 (Jan 12, 2011)

Ha! :shock:


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Neither, if it wasn't a 300 + caliber shooting a 200 gn + bullet it was not ethical on elk.;-)


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I only respect people that have the necessary skills, ability, and mindset to strip to their natural state and enter the wild. Once immersed in nature, you must locate with your own eyes, ears, and nose a minimum 413 6/8" net typical bull elk not in the rut and sneak in on him between 11:17 a.m. and 2:42 p.m. on a Tuesday. Then with a single bound you must land on his back from no more than 12 furlongs and no less than 4 cubits distance and dispatch him cleanly with a single bite to the bull's carotid artery. Then you must eat him before leaving that place. ALL of him. Goob has the recipe for elk bung-mane-hoof-and-nostril casserole in the recipe forum, but you have to remember it and present it to a panel of three chef judges who will grade you on presentation, taste, and creativity in using the secret ingredients. You have 15 minutes.


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## NVDuckin (Apr 18, 2016)

bowgy said:


> Neither, if it wasn't a 300 + caliber shooting a 200 gn + bullet it was not ethical on elk.;-)


Ha ha, I don't think this is ever going to die.


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## archerben (Sep 14, 2007)

Who's to say it isn't the very same hunter in both scenarios? I've killed both P&Y/B&C animals with my bow as close as 12 yards, antelope with a long range rifle as far as 895 yards, and dozens of animals with multiple weapons in between. In my opinion, the better hunter is the hunter whom has several tools in their toolbox.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

wilcum1977 said:


> Is the hunter that uses a recurve any less of a hunter than the one who uses a high powered rifle with a high class scope to harvest game? Surely, much of it is the ethics and values we were raised with. For the sake of the discussion let's give a scenario. Hunter A, who harvests a beautiful Bull Elk with archery equipment. Now setting aside that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Hunter B, harvests a 380+ inch Bull with a 28 Nosler topped with a Swarovski Z8i the kill shot at 800+ yards. Who's the better Hunter?_O\\


That's a tough one. The guy with the recurve has an unfair advantage because his weapon doesn't have a scope. And he's going to use hunting skills to get close to the elk, again unfair.

15¢ says this goes 20 pages.

.


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## PBH (Nov 7, 2007)

wilcum1977 said:


> Who's the better Hunter?_O\\


How many guide outfits did they hire?


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## MuscleWhitefish (Jan 13, 2015)

It depends on how the shot was obtained. 

Hunter A/B in a high fence with tame elk. 

Hunter A/B on a road hunt with elk that are so love drunk they turn into turkeys. 

Hunter A/B hikes with his pack on his back 10 miles and puts another 25 miles and kills the only bull that is seen. 

With both situations the same, I do not think that you can argue either one is better. 

People struggle getting close to animals. 

People struggle with shots beyond 500 yards.

I think this may be a draw.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> I only respect people that have the necessary skills, ability, and mindset to strip to their natural state and enter the wild. Once immersed in nature, you must locate with your own eyes, ears, and nose a minimum 413 6/8" net typical bull elk not in the rut and sneak in on him between 11:17 a.m. and 2:42 p.m. on a Tuesday. Then with a single bound you must land on his back from no more than 12 furlongs and no less than 4 cubits distance and dispatch him cleanly with a single bite to the bull's carotid artery. Then you must eat him before leaving that place. ALL of him. Goob has the recipe for elk bung-mane-hoof-and-nostril casserole in the recipe forum, but you have to remember it and present it to a panel of three chef judges who will grade you on presentation, taste, and creativity in using the secret ingredients. You have 15 minutes.


Only wearing a loincloth.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

bowgy said:


> Only wearing a loincloth.


Loin cloths are for the weak and shamed. If you can't flaunt your microgenitalia during your process to compensate for it via the slaughter of innocent sentient beings you don't deserve the victory of fresh blood spraying on your face with each fading heartbeat.

^^^First TOPTP of this soon to be immortal thread. I'd like to thank...me, for being awesome. Continue on. Err, big game (to ensure this isn't deleted for being offtopic).


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

bowgy said:


> Neither, if it wasn't a 300 + caliber shooting a 200 gn + bullet it was not ethical on elk.;-)


//dog////dog////dog////dog//:V|::V|::V|::V|::V|::V|:-O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__


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## LostLouisianian (Oct 11, 2010)

johnnycake said:


> Loin cloths are for the weak and shamed. If you can't flaunt your microgenitalia during your process to compensate for it via the slaughter of innocent sentient beings you don't deserve the victory of fresh blood spraying on your face with each fading heartbeat.
> 
> ^^^First TOPTP of this soon to be immortal thread. I'd like to thank...me, for being awesome. Continue on. Err, big game (to ensure this isn't deleted for being offtopic).


I have no freakin idea what he just said but it sounds pretty danged smart so whatever it is I agree


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## DallanC (Jan 13, 2009)

This is like the old argument of killing a 380 bull elk next to the road isn't hunting but killing a 380 bull 4 days hike from a road is (even though everyone dreams of killing a big bull next to a road). 


-DallanC


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Loin cloths are for the weak and shamed. If you can't flaunt your microgenitalia during your process to compensate for it via the slaughter of innocent sentient beings you don't deserve the victory of fresh blood spraying on your face with each fading heartbeat.
> 
> ^^^First TOPTP of this soon to be immortal thread. I'd like to thank...me, for being awesome. Continue on. Err, big game (to ensure this isn't deleted for being offtopic).


Naahh, you only need a loincloth for biguns.;-) So you don't trip and fall or they don't get caught on the brush


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

LostLouisianian said:


> //dog////dog////dog////dog//:V|::V|::V|::V|::V|::V|:-O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__--O\\__


I know..... I know.... I just couldn't help myself. Satan made me do it. Besides I feel an obligation to pass on to others thing I learn on this forum.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

bowgy said:


> Naahh, you only need a loincloth for biguns.;-) So you don't trip and fall or they don't get caught on the brush


You clearly don't understand the concept of toss it over your shoulder and go. Just knit a holster from your nipple and back hair like a man and quitcherbitchin


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> You clearly don't understand the concept of toss it over your shoulder and go. Just knit a holster from your nipple and back hair like a man and quitcherbitchin


I knew I couldn't win with a lawyer;-)


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## wilcum1977 (Dec 10, 2016)

My intent in posting this thread was not to start the zombie apocalypse:wacko:
But rather to see what the general mindset of Hunters as a whole would be on the subject. The way I see it, no two people are going to have the same view or outlook on the outcome of a specific subject or event. Whether an animal is hunted within a high fence, or it was shot at 1000 yards or 10 yards. Whatever the case( bow hunter, rifle hunter, smoke pole hunter) wherever the hunt( high on the mountain peak, in a meadow surrounded by pines and aspen, or even behind a high fenced enclosure) Above all and most important in my mind, or we as Hunters being ethical in the pursuit of the animals we hunt?


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## colorcountrygunner (Oct 6, 2009)

My vote goes for whichever hunter did not name his bull previously, or use phrases like "number one on my hit list," or "I had quite a history with this bull."


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

Oops you were serious ... sorry.



wilcum1977 said:


> Is the hunter that uses a recurve any less of a hunter than the one who uses a high powered rifle with a high class scope to harvest game?
> In my opinion no.
> Surely, much of it is the ethics and values we were raised with. For the sake of the discussion let's give a scenario. Hunter A, who harvests a beautiful Bull Elk with archery equipment. Now setting aside that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Hunter B, harvests a 380+ inch Bull with a 28 Nosler topped with a Swarovski Z8i the kill shot at 800+ yards. Who's the better Hunter?
> I will stick with my original answer, neither._O\\


Yes another angle got his wings.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

bowgy said:


> Oops you were serious ... sorry.
> 
> Yes another angle got his wings.
> Right, obtuse, or acute?


There is no room for reason amidst this absurdity.


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> You clearly don't understand the concept of toss it over your shoulder and go. Just knit a holster from your nipple and back hair like a man and quitcherbitchin


LOL - I couldn't help but think of this song after your comment! Change the words as needed.

Do Your Ears Hang Low?
Do They Wobble to and Fro?
Can You Tie Them in a Knot?
Can You Tie Them in a Bow?
Can You Throw Them Over Your Shoulder Like a Continental Soldier?

Do Your Ears Hang Low?
Do Your Ears Hang High?
Do They Reach Up to the Sky?
Do The Droop When They're Wet?
Do They Stiffen When They're Dry?
Can You Semaphore Your Neighbor with a Mimimum of Labor?

Do Your Ears Hang High?
Do Your Ears Hang Wide?
Do They Flap From Side to Side?
Do They Wave in the Breeze?
From the Slightest Little Sneeze?
Can You Soar Above the Nation with a Feeling of Elation?

Do Your Ears Hang Wide?
Do Your Ears Fall Off?
When You Give a Great Big Cough?
Do They Lie There on the Ground?
Or Bounce Up at Every Sound?
Can You Stick Them in Your Pocket Just Like Little Davy Crockett?

Do Your Ears Fall Off?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

CPAjeff said:


> LOL - I couldn't help but think of this song after your comment! Change the words as needed.
> 
> Do Your Ears Hang Low?
> Do They Wobble to and Fro?
> ...


Glad it wasn't lost on ya!


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## bow_dude (Aug 20, 2009)

It takes more skill to stalk within range of your quarry to hunt with a recurve. 30 yards compared to several hundred. or even a thousand... you can answer that one for yourself. Hunting with archery equipment has made me a better hunter because I had to learn to be stealthy. I had to learn to work the wind. None of that was a consideration when I hunted with a rife. When I hunted with a rife, I took a deer every year. When I moved to archery I take a deer about every 3 or 4 years. No doubt it is more difficult. I am a lot more selective with the shot I take and several years, I have chosen to not take a shot at all. Does one style make a person a better hunter over the other? Not necessarily, it is simply the choice the person makes for his/her satisfaction. If you are interested in killing, go with a gun, the success rate is much higher. If you are interested in a challenge and the kill is simply a bonus, but not necessarily the determining factor on the success of your hunt, then go primitive. Another consideration, I hunt different terrain with a rifle than I do with a bow. With a rifle, I want to see long distances so the terrain is much more open. When I hunt with a bow, I want terrain with lots of trees and the sight distance is generally much more limited.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

bowgy said:


> Only wearing a loincloth.


Loincloths are so post-Garden of Eden. I thought we were talking primitive here?

I totally disagree that stalking in is harder than shooting with a rifle. I guarantee far more deer and elk are killed every year in Utah by bow and arrow than are killed with 1,000+ yard shots. If more people are able to do it successfully, then by definition is that not easier?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Vanilla said:


> Loincloths are so post-Garden of Eden. I thought we were talking primitive here?
> 
> I totally disagree that stalking in is harder than shooting with a rifle. I guarantee far more deer and elk are killed every year in Utah by bow and arrow than are killed with 1,000+ yard shots. If more people are able to do it successfully, then by definition is that not easier?


Advantage goes to the fermented extract of an orchid's reproductive system


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## BPturkeys (Sep 13, 2007)

It's quite plain and simple...bow hunters are better hunters, more ethical, smarter, tougher, better looking...just better all around human beans. We all love bow hunters, with their smug, holier than thou backdoor self aggrandizing compliments. 
Gentlemen, lay down those rifles, stop the girly man stuff, pick up a bow and become a MAN! After that great shot and a long bloody chase, grab that deer's throat with your teeth and rip that jugular, finish him off for a humane kill, he's ran far enough.
Give us your poor, your hungry, your bow hunters, let the land of hunters become pure and noble...hunt with a bow...save our world, save mankind...God bless bowhunters.


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## elkfromabove (Apr 20, 2008)

BPturkeys said:


> It's quite plain and simple...bow hunters are better hunters, more ethical, smarter, tougher, better looking...just better all around human beans. We all love bow hunters, with their smug, holier than thou backdoor self aggrandizing compliments.
> Gentlemen, lay down those rifles, stop the girly man stuff, pick up a bow and become a MAN! After that great shot and a long bloody chase, grab that deer's throat with your teeth and rip that jugular, finish him off for a humane kill, he's ran far enough.
> Give us your poor, your hungry, your bow hunters, let the land of hunters become pure and noble...hunt with a bow...save our world, save mankind...God bless bowhunters.


Nah, let's just shut down all archery hunts and throw bowhunters into the any weapon hunts to add to the competition for those tags. Or better yet, just drive them out of the sport with more restrictive regulations.


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## Finnegan (Sep 7, 2007)

What's more important? Killing animals or hunting animals?

Me, I love hunting and all of the experiences that go along with hunting. I have an any weapon elk tag and I'm hunting with a recurve bow. If I had a rifle, my hunt would've ended long ago.

But if that had been the case, I wouldn't have witnessed what I've witnessed. And what I've witnessed has been worth the wait.

Still, when it comes down to it, the only reason I can enjoy hunting with a bow is because I know I can fill the freezer later with a rifle tag.

With a rifle, the hunt is over when you find the animal. With a bow, the hunt begins when you find the animal.


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## wilcum1977 (Dec 10, 2016)

Finnegan,

Your reply gives the type of insight that I had hoped to get out of this thread when I posted it. Where is our focus as Hunters? My Old Man used to say(There is a reason that it is called Hunting, and not Killing.) I would like to think that most of us enjoy Hunting, and not just killing an animal to take life. Regardless of the weapon of choice, shouldn't our number one priority be to be ethical in the manner in which we harvest the animals that we hunt?


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

With all due respect wilcum1977 your perspective is just a bit to spiritual for me but I appreciate it none the less. For me, I just love getting out there and enjoying the outdoors and the hunt or non hunt if some choose to call it that. Have always been a rifle hunter and I can't see myself changing (not that I won't at some point- I can't see the future and have nothing against it) I like the advantage of a rifle. Some like the challenge of a bow. To each thier own. But when we start talking ethics when it comes to the weapon one uses to kill or hunt an animal, I struggle. I don't care who you are finding an animal and having a rifle in hand does not automatically end the hunt. Anyone who says it does is pissing in the wind.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## CPAjeff (Dec 20, 2014)

wilcum1977 said:


> Is the hunter that uses a recurve any less of a hunter than the one who uses a high powered rifle with a high class scope to harvest game? Surely, much of it is the ethics and values we were raised with. For the sake of the discussion let's give a scenario. Hunter A, who harvests a beautiful Bull Elk with archery equipment. Now setting aside that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Hunter B, harvests a 380+ inch Bull with a 28 Nosler topped with a Swarovski Z8i the kill shot at 800+ yards. Who's the better Hunter?_O\\


I'm going with Hunter C - the one who hunts without pounding their chests whether they use a spear, bow & arrow, or rifle of whatever sort. This hunter values the animal, not solely based off the score of the antlers on its head or the distance shot from the road, but for the total experience of hunting and being in the outdoors.


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wilcum1977 said:


> Finnegan,
> 
> Your reply gives the type of insight that I had hoped to get out of this thread when I posted it. Where is our focus as Hunters? My Old Man used to say(There is a reason that it is called Hunting, and not Killing.) I would like to think that most of us enjoy Hunting, and not just killing an animal to take life. Regardless of the weapon of choice, shouldn't our number one priority be to be ethical in the manner in which we harvest the animals that we hunt?


So if I am reading the OP's most recent post quoted above correctly, the idea of this thread was to get a bunch of people to confirm his own belief of hunting ethics, not to actually have a real discussion? Or am I missing something?

I still maintain that killing and elk at over 800+ yards with a rifle takes more skill than stalking into bow range. I'm 100% certain I have zero chance of successfully taking an 800 yard shot right now, and I've been shooting rifles for 30+ years. I have, however, been within bow range of countless Big Game animals I've both had a tag and not had a tag to harvest.

To me this is kind of a silly conversation, because it shouldn't matter. But if you really want to talk only the skills it takes, that kind of a long shot with a rifle (800+ yards) requires more skill than simply stalking to bow range does. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority, if not close to every one of us has been 40 yards or less from an animal. I would wager a very small percentage of us can accurately shoot beyond 800 yards, however.


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

Finnegan said:


> What's more important? Killing animals or hunting animals?
> 
> ................................................


Uh.....if you're 65 years old and have a outrageously expensive guided once-in-a-lifetime bighorn sheep tag that you've been applying for 35 years I would say "both".

.


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## 35whelen (Jul 3, 2012)

I need a furlong:yards conversion chart


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

I think bowgy's been busy knitting his holster, as he hasn't weighed in recently


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## Chuckmclean (Nov 10, 2016)

My vote is for the waterfowler. Skybusting takes a lot of talent. Have you ever had a dog retrieve your animal for you? It's exhausting. And lets not even mention how inaccurate a shotgun is. :grin:


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## wilcum1977 (Dec 10, 2016)

To each his own, vanilla you think my post is silly, and 3arabians thinks it's to spiritual. I should have thought it through a little more of what I was trying to accomplish in posting the thread. The point I was trying to get at is that it shouldn't matter whether you hunt with a bow, a rifle or a smoke pole. And it also doesn't matter at what distance you harvest an animal. It's the clean humane kill that the animal deserves. Now if that makes me silly and to spiritual for saying so then it is what it is. I believe in a higher power that has created the mountains I roam, and the game I hunt. I'm not asking anyone to share in my beliefs. Regardless of ones spiritual beliefs one thing is certain if we don't work together as sportsmen there won't be any game left for anyone to enjoy and God has nothing to do with that.


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## Chuckmclean (Nov 10, 2016)

wilcum1977 said:


> To each his own, vanilla you think my post is silly, and 3arabians thinks it's to spiritual. I should have thought it through a little more of what I was trying to accomplish in posting the thread. The point I was trying to get at is that it shouldn't matter whether you hunt with a bow, a rifle or a smoke pole. And it also doesn't matter at what distance you harvest an animal. It's the clean humane kill that the animal deserves. Now if that makes me silly and to spiritual for saying so then it is what it is. I believe in a higher power that has created the mountains I roam, and the game I hunt. I'm not asking anyone to share in my beliefs. Regardless of ones spiritual beliefs one thing is certain if we don't work together as sportsmen there won't be any game left for anyone to enjoy and God has nothing to do with that.


I think most people don't come here to get a lecture. So you're probably gonna be met with hostility. I think it's a fair assumption to make that everyone here cares about conservation and being an ethical hunter. Maybe lighten up a little and post about something fun. Its good to be passionate, but not preachy.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

#makeuwnfrivolousagain


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## ridgetop (Sep 13, 2007)

I've been hunting with a 7mm rem mag. for the past 12 years. Next year I'm thinking of hunting with an old 30-30 I started hunting with when I was 16.
Now if I were to wound and loose a deer with that 30-30, would I be an unethical hunter because I could have been hunting with the 7mm, which has a better chance of killing a deer even with a bad shot placement?


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## Vanilla (Dec 11, 2009)

wilcum1977, with all due respect, I'm not buying it. If your message and intent of this thread was a feel good "we must all stay together" kumbaya for hunters, then why frame it around "Which is the better hunter between these two people?" 

I commend you for your enlightened and superior state of being compared to the rest of us heathens, but your posts in totality suggest you came to stir the pot a little, but the stirring stick moved a little faster than you were expecting. 

It's all good. Stick around, keep posting. The discussions are fun, even the silly ones that shouldn't matter, like "who is best?" Just realize that if one jumps on a soap box, there might be people that want to push him off.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> I only respect people that have the necessary skills, ability, and mindset to strip to their natural state and enter the wild. Once immersed in nature, you must locate with your own eyes, ears, and nose a minimum 413 6/8" net typical bull elk not in the rut and sneak in on him between 11:17 a.m. and 2:42 p.m. on a Tuesday. Then with a single bound you must land on his back from no more than 12 furlongs and no less than 4 cubits distance and dispatch him cleanly with a single bite to the bull's carotid artery. Then you must eat him before leaving that place. ALL of him. Goob has the recipe for elk bung-mane-hoof-and-nostril casserole in the recipe forum, but you have to remember it and present it to a panel of three chef judges who will grade you on presentation, taste, and creativity in using the secret ingredients. You have 15 minutes.


Well....ya, this is impressive I guess.

However, I think without using the 5 point palm exploding heart technique this method falls a bit short.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

3arabians said:


> Well....ya, this is impressive I guess.
> 
> However, I think without using the 5 point palm exploding heart technique this method falls a bit short.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


And you wonder why people think you are an uncouth lummox without an Icicle's chance in a nunnery of ever truly being an ethical hunter.


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## 3arabians (Dec 9, 2014)

johnnycake said:


> And you wonder why people think you are an uncouth lummox without an Icicle's chance in a nunnery of ever truly being an ethical hunter.


Im sorry but If you can't use ninja skills you might as well be hunting with a sub 200 grain bullet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> I think bowgy's been busy knitting his holster, as he hasn't weighed in recently


Nah, I tried it like you said but the velocity of swinging it over my shoulder caused it to go around my neck twice and choked me out. still trying to recover.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

bowgy said:


> Nah, I tried it like you said but the velocity of swinging it over my shoulder caused it to go around my neck twice and choked me out. still trying to recover.


Choking is all about technique....done properly you'll never go without it again. Ask LL, word is he's been getting into 50 Shades of Grey trying to defrost an ice queen.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

johnnycake said:


> Choking is all about technique....done properly you'll never go without it again. Ask LL, word is he's been getting into 50 Shades of Grey trying to defrost an ice queen.


I don't even want to know how you know that:shock:


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> That's a tough one. The guy with the recurve has an unfair advantage because his weapon doesn't have a scope. And he's going to use hunting skills to get close to the elk, again unfair.
> 
> 15¢ says this goes 20 pages.
> 
> .


Just trying to help you not lose your hard earned money.;-)


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## wyogoob (Sep 7, 2007)

*Need 20 pages fellas, I'm broke*



bowgy said:


> Just trying to help you not lose your hard earned money.;-)


Thanks. If I lose this bet I'm in trouble, prolly have to sell a gun or some crimped reloads.

topofdapage
.


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## bullsnot (Aug 10, 2010)

Ok I'll help Goob out.

For me personally shooting a long ways is hard. Getting close to a big bull with a recurve is harder.

Not sure if that means I'm a good or bad hunter though.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

bullsnot said:


> Ok I'll help Goob out.
> 
> For me personally shooting a long ways is hard. Getting close to a big bull with a recurve is harder.
> 
> Not sure if that means I'm a good or bad hunter though.


But are you using iron sights?


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

Critter said:


> But are you using iron sights?


They are too hard to install firmly on my front teeth.


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## bowgy (Oct 10, 2007)

wyogoob said:


> Thanks. If I lose this bet I'm in trouble, prolly have to sell a gun or some crimped reloads.
> 
> topofdapage
> .


Maybe you could sell some haggis and head cheese.-O,-


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