# Need some advice



## Me and Annie (Mar 3, 2008)

I have a 9 month old female lab pup. I have worked with her since I got her and she had been good on obedience and really gotten to enjoy retrieving on both water and land. Abby rarely breaks but rather sits till she is sent on the retrieve and generally returns to hand. I have mostly just used dummies sometimes with a couple of teal wings taped on. I have made the mistake of not shooting over her. About a week ago I decided I better shoot over her. Took her out to the Willard training area and had my son take his shotgun so he could shoot while i worked her and threw the dummy. Here is where the problems began, before we could even shoot she seemed very spooked just seeing the gun. She has never been beaten other than a few swats on the butt with the open hand. She acted completely out of character and would retrieve the dummy but would not bring it to me, also would not sit by me. I have been ever since laying a gun by her food bowl when she eats. I have been shooting a muzzle loader cap before releasing her to eat. Tonight I tried retrieving and popping a cap on the throw. Again she will go get it but won't bring it to me and I have to pull her to me and make her sit. Also she is suddenly very spooky of people and this is also out of character.

If anyone has a suggestions I would be grateful. This has me completely stressed. Never have had anything like this with the three previous dogs I have had.


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## Gumbo (Sep 22, 2007)

Have you introduced her to live birds yet?


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## Me and Annie (Mar 3, 2008)

I plan to buy some pigeon and use introduce this weekend. I did send her after a duck on the youth hunt. She went and got it then just wanted to play with it.


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

The short answer is probably: Birds Birds Birds Birds Birds.

It might just be me but I never introduce a dog to gunfire with a shotgun. I've known a few people who do, although from what I've seen it's basically like rolling dice.

Some dogs won't be gun shy regardless of how much care is taken in the introduction process. The problem is, some will unless they are gradually broken in. The safe way, therefore, is to follow a gradual regimen with all dogs.

Starter pistol loads, which come in a variety of sound levels for dog training, are the best way. It's ideal to begin with the lowest power blanks, and move up to the highest power based on how much if any attention the pup pays to the sound.

The key is to perform the introduction during an activity that focuses the dog's complete attention. In my mind there is NO SUBSTITUTE for live birds here, because it's usually so exciting that the hunting instinct overrides the unfamilar sound. Birds are usually the ultimate in this regard. While retrieving and other fun activities can be substituted (again with some dogs) - live birds just tend to be the #1 attention getter.

Once you have associated an activity like retrieving with a scary experience, the problem is heavily compounded. Breaking the negative association is a lot harder than avoiding it.

My suggestion is to back clear off the gun sounds, and work on building a crazy level of enthusiasm in the pup for live birds. No corrections. Birds birds birds until the dog is showing full bore craziness for birds. Then, use the lowest power starter pistol loads fired from a significant distance while the pup is chasing a live bird. Gradually shorten the distance, and gradually increase the blank power based on the reaction you are seeing.

This can be a time consuming process - if you aren't up for it you may want to consider working with a pro trainer. Tread lightly, because rushing the process with a pup that has shown tendencies toward gun shy behavior and has already formed some negative associations can quickly turn into a permanent condition.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

BIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDS
BIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDS
BIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDS
BIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDSBIRDS

And LOTS of human AND K-9 socialization. I find that most dogs who are gunshy are also social introverts and afraid of more than just the gun. This is usually due to not enough interaction with other people, dogs, and social situations. A dog with an introverted personality can be a challenge to deal with. Good luck with her.

*DO NOT TAKE THIS DOG OUT OPENING DAY OF DUCK SEASON!!!*


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## MarkM (Sep 7, 2007)

All good advise and i will throw my 2 cents in. At 9 months could your lab be getting her adult teeth in? When my current female lab was getting her adult teeth in she stopped wanting to retreiving altogether and even though she had been introduced to gunfire and brids at a young age all of a sudden she was freaked out by both. I think her mouth hurt too much to retrieve anything. I stopped doing retrieving drills for about a month while she was cutting her adult teeth and just worked on obediance. After a month once her teeth were all in she was back to normal, crazy about birds and bumpers and had no problem with gunfire.

Mark


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## Me and Annie (Mar 3, 2008)

Thanks for everyones advice. the obvious main answer is birds and yet with that I am told not to shoot. How do I let her chase birds and not shoot them?


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## threshershark (Sep 7, 2007)

Me and Annie said:


> How do I let her chase birds and not shoot them?


It's up to you in terms of how readily available live birds are and how the dog reacts to them.

If you know someone with homing pigeons that can work out well. The dog can go out and flush 10 birds in a session and they all just fly home and can be re-used over and over again.

You can clip the flight feathers on birds so their flight will be impaired. There's a little trial and error here - too much clipping and the bird can't fly at all, not enough and it's gone. If the dog is just chasing and not mouthing or killing the bird, you can get multiple flushes per bird this way too.

There is also tethering. This involves tying a square of cardboard to a bird's leg with string. The tether throws the bird off balance and limits how far they fly after flushing.

Remember the point of this initial introduction to birds is NOT retrieving or shooting the bird. It's letting the pup get excited about birds and is more about the chase, curiosity, and encouraging the hunting drive than anything else. If the birds get away, or even if the dog catches/kills them - at this stage it's less of a concern than the gun shyness.

Chukars are good for this purpose because they run and will usually let the dog trail for a while and even see them on the ground before flushing. They are also prone to shorter flights naturally (especially pen-raised birds on flat ground). Bobwhites can be good as well if you can find them.

Actually shooting a live bird over a dog is the *final* stage of the training process, not the beginning. The only objective at first is letting the pup find, chase and be excited about birds - to encourage what comes naturally.

When you see that the pup is consistently amped about finding and chasing birds, it's time to consider the starter pistol at a distance. In a situation like this where the dog has shown an aversion to loud noises, it's best to have a slow and steady mindset. You will probably want to have 10 or more bird chasing sessions at least before you start making things go boom, and bring the starter pistol in very gradually. Watch the dog carefully for any signs of fear, and go back to birds by themselves if the dog has a setback.


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## Leaky (Sep 11, 2007)

Totally agree with threshershark.
Maybe back off a while. then plant a live kitted/clipped bird and when she flushes use a 22 pistol and when it lands see what she does. If she still doesn't bring it to hand or close, start with the basics again. Another idea is to take here to a trap shooting range to let her slowly get ised to the noise, this means slowly approaching, all the time reassuring her and do this for a while before trying again. Maybe doing this first???


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## grouse dog (Jul 20, 2011)

do you have another dog you could work this dog with? sometimes having another dog around helps the sensitive dog be a little more bold. i have seen it work numerous times, it's worth a shot if you have access to another dog that you can have work at the same time your dog is working.


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## Fowlmouth (Oct 4, 2008)

threshershark said:


> with some dogs) -
> use the lowest power starter pistol loads fired from a significant distance while the pup is chasing a live bird. Gradually shorten the distance, and gradually increase the blank power based on the reaction you are seeing.quote]
> 
> BINGO! +1


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## Me and Annie (Mar 3, 2008)

Thanks again gentlemen. I do have another dog to work her with. I usually don't like two dogs in the boat but encouraging her by watching the other dog makes good sense. I am sure she will get through this. I plan to have her chasing pigeons this weekend. Hopefully by end of season I can post picture of her retrieving ducks.


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## TEX-O-BOB (Sep 12, 2007)

> At 9 months could your lab be getting her adult teeth in?


I doubt it. My pup had all his adult teeth by 4 months.


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## woollybugger (Oct 13, 2007)

I agree with the birds and people advice. Our dog is practically a member of the family. She will be 1 year old on Halloween. I took my boy on his first real hunt, and the dogs first real hunt, on the youth waterfowl shoot. Dog has not be worked around guns before, but, has been worked on birds and is very much a part of daily human life. We run the dog on the nearby fields (few birds these days) and do some training there. Also, the dog was raised around the family chickens, and spent a lot of time retrieving them when I sent her after escapees (most were intentionally for her sake); she would return them unharmed. The dog loves birds and loves being around her people so much that she could care less about the boy's gunfire. 

Start the dog heavy on birds, and make sure it is having a good time. After a while, have someone shoot a .22 a moderate distance away while working bumpers, or birds. Gradually move the gun closer and get the dog to associate the guns with the birds. In the past, dogs that I have owned would go nuts at the sight of a gun (in a good way), it meant we were goin' hunt'n! At the sound of the shot the dog would be in high alert retriever mode and love every minute of it. 

Be patient, don't rush it. Get your dog on some birds and it will be allright.


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## Me and Annie (Mar 3, 2008)

Thought I would give an update on how things are going with Abby. I worked with her quit a bit with a dummy launcher. She went from timid about it to very excited whenever she sees me get it out (mounted on a rifle stock.) I also worked her with some pigeons. Again she was pretty timid with the live ones but retrieved dead birds quickly and got so she would gingerly bring in live birds. I also took her out to the willard training area and had had my son shoot a shotgun everytime I would shoot the launcher. This did not seem to bother her so I started throwing a dummy and shooting again she was not bothered and retrieved to hand. We decided to hunt a very remote area for the opener this weekend. My partners dog is excellent with hundreds of retrieves on ducks geese and pheasants. I let her follow the other dog and chose not to dicipline when she would want to run around and play. She only got to retreive one bird (that I picked up and threw but brought it right to me.) Yesterday my son and I hunted on BRBR and both took limits. Abby retrieved most of these birds. She was slow about it and sometimes would drop them and and screw around a bit, again I chose to just use positive reinforcement no dicipline. I am feeling much more confident about her future as a hunting partner. Thanks to everyone for your advise and encouragement.


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## jnuttall (Oct 4, 2011)

I'll I can tell you is, "Water Dogs" and "Bird Dogs" By Richard Walters. I have never trained a dog before, these books were suggested to me, I got them from the Library. I have a 13 month old Choc lab, I got her when she was 3 months old. SHe is not ready for Trial's, but she is doing really well in the field; and with the family.


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