# Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the other?



## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

Just wanted to get the topic started up of why people defend cougars and how they have their place to control the deer population but coyotes need to be killed all the time however it takes. I would like to see as many cats and coyotes taken as possible don't get me wrong. But how do people defend there point of view with cougars without the same respect to coyotes which we are trying to enilate.?


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## sawsman (Sep 13, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

For one, there are ALOT more coyotes&#8230;


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## JuddCT (Sep 7, 2007)

One is worth more $


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## AF CYN (Mar 19, 2009)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

I agree with JuddCT--cougars are worth more $, but there is more to it. Cougars are sleeker, stealthier, more powerful, prettier, etc... Coyotes are common, mangy vermin.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Cougars for the most part leave domestic livestock alone. Coyotes like to eat our critters, from yipe-yipe dogs to cows.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

But cookt the whole coyote control objective is to help deer populations why not get rid of cougars to?


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

It would never fly. Lions are cool, even the guys that hunt them don't kill them most of the time. On the other hand, even a hard core animal lover has a hard time liking a mangy coyote that eats baby deer.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

So we manage on cool.


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## Critter (Mar 20, 2010)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

The main things is that there is a awful lot more coyotes than there are cougars. The cougar population is also easier to control and manage by hunting. Coyotes seam that the more that you shoot the more there are unless you go all out with a air war against them.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



#1DEER 1-I said:


> But cookt the whole coyote control objective is to help deer populations why not get rid of cougars to?


Well, with Harvest ojective hunting the last few years, there trying pretty
**** hard to get rid of all the lions,...Lowest cat numbers I've ever witnessed.


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## Nathanwild (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

I think that another part of this is that coyotes can live all over the place. you don't hear about cougars being in farm land near towns. because when they are they are removed but coyotes are everywhere I have seen them eating out of trash cans.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



Nathanwild said:


> I think that another part of this is that coyotes can live all over the place. you don't hear about cougars being in farm land near towns. because when they are they are removed but coyotes are everywhere I have seen them eating out of trash cans.
> 
> I think that another part of this is that coyotes can live all over the place. you don't hear about cougars being in farm land near towns. because when they are they are removed but coyotes are everywhere I have seen them eating out of trash cans.


Right and those are good points but the push to get rid of coyotes is to help deer out why not do the same with cougars?



> The main things is that there is a awful lot more coyotes than there are cougars. The cougar population is also easier to control and manage by hunting. Coyotes seam that the more that you shoot the more there are unless you go all out with a air war against them.


The cougar population going down is no skin off my teeth. This will make for more big game animals, I'm not saying cougars don't have their place, I'm just saying it's hard to see why we try to kill off coyotes and act like cougars are doing no harm to deer and elk populations.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

1 eye heres the deal there are around 2000 cats in Utah, at least thats whats I've been told. There are 100s of thousands of coyotes, who knows for sure with them. So while there not looking to kill all of the coyotes or all of the cats they are trying to get the numbers down on the coyotes. Which IMO is not working even close to what they want it to. No problem for me though I'm getting paid to coyote hunt now!  
So it might seem like there picking on the coyote but the cats are already under control, or not depending on what you think is a good population of cats.


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## GaryFish (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



> I think that another part of this is that coyotes can live all over the place. you don't hear about cougars being in farm land near towns. because when they are they are removed but coyotes are everywhere I have seen them eating out of trash cans.


You might be really surprised at how many cats are in the cities. They criss-cross the Salt Lake valley all the time, with half a dozen somewhere in the valley at any given time. And if you live on the benches in Sandy or in Olympus Cove, you'd be really surprised at how many cruise neighborhoods at night picking off urban deer and house cats.


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## Airborne (May 29, 2009)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Its all about birthrate and numbers. Coyotes produce on an exponential scale, Cougars do not. If there were only 2000 coyotes in the state and they produced at a slow of rate as the Cougar then I think you would find a totally different mentality that would be similar to the Cougar-->people braggin about drawin a Coyote tag


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

It is correct that lions are easier to manage than coyotes. There is a natural control for coyotes.....the wolf. It is well documented that as westward expansion occured and wolf populations declined that coyote populations not only increased but expanded their ranges. Wolves (if no politics are involved) and lions can manage coyote populations. Wolves (if no politics are involved) like lions can be easily managed by humans. 
Likewise, studies show that where wolves have been reintroduced coyote populations have declined. So, as one DWR employee once said to me...."which would you rather have...wolves that we can manage, or coyotes that we can't manage....", it is an interesting thought. The scientist in me would like to experiment with the notion, but polarization on the subject of wolves would be hard to overcome. :?


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## tallbuck (Apr 30, 2009)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Of course coyote populations have declined with wolves now being around in the majority of places that wolves now call home... It is called the food chain. Wolves kill Coyotes, and coyotes kill foxes due to demand and livable habitat. But I for one DONT want any wolves in Utah, their is NOWHERE that they can exist in this state without causing problems. We dont have the "Wilderness" area like Idaho and Montana to keep wolves out of peoples back yard and livestock. Do you want your friends to have problems with Wolves in the Uinta Mountains? or Hiking around on Boulder Mountain or Up on the cache while your family is with you? I think not.

As far as lions are concerned...I would like to see fewer ones (even though I am NO expert on there population) but I know they do a dang good job of killing lots of deer and sheep in this state. If they are big enough to be the natural predator to Wild Mustangs then I cannot imagine that they don't also kill there fair share of elk and moose. They are dang good at what they do being sleek and stealthy in how they hunt.

IMHO... we need to wage a bigger war on Coyotes (like we did way back when) in order to get there population in check. They kill a lot of wildlife in this state from mature deer to pheasants, the greater sage grouse, waterfowl and anything in between. It is no wonder that not only are deer hurting but so are many other species in this state that are on the decline.

The ONLY good coyote is a dead one.

Tallbuck


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



#1DEER 1-I said:


> The cougar population going down is no skin off my teeth. This will make for more big game animals.....


Unfortunately, it is not as simple as that. Most biologists but it seems not too many hunters understand the difference between compensatory and additive predation. If a habitat can only support 70% or 80% of its annual population increase, that means 20% to 30% are destined to die regardless. In other words, say we kill every coyote and lion in the area, it doesn't save the 20% t0 30% that are destined to die anyway, it only changes how they are to die. Instead of dying from coyotes or cougars, they die from starvation. Either way, dead is dead.

This is why making a blanket statement like the one in quotes may be inaccurate. It is unclear what the net result is going to be on big game populations by removing predators unless we understand the specific dynamics of the populations in the area.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

:lol: Compensatory and additive only applies to Mule deer, Rabbits and Porcupine. Or what ever else the cougars and coyotes eat. 

The only evidence you or anyone else has to assert the deer herd is at capacity is that it's not growing. :roll: Which could be from a 100 different reasons. Out of all the things killing deer today old age and starvation are way way down the list.

You don't think for a second that if deer were starving of by the 10s of 1000s goofy and everyone else would be on here all winter talking about the deer they are seeing having a hard time? There would be conversations about how we should be feeding the deer. I'm not seeing starving deer if I were you could bet I would be saying something about it.

Remember folks 2000 cougar kill about 100,000 deer in Utah. How many of them would die otherwise? Who knows? It's seems silly to not want to find that out. And if those pictures of nice bucks we see that were killed by cougar are going to be chalked up as compensatory. Why isn't the buck my uncle harvested in Oct not compensatory as well?

We are all to quick to assume hunter harvest is additive. What gives?


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## Mr Muleskinner (Feb 14, 2012)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



> The only evidence you or anyone else has to assert the deer herd is at capacity is that it's not growing. Which could be from a 100 different reasons. Out of all the things killing deer today old age and starvation are way way down the list.


Which is just another way of saying that it is at capacity given the current reality of the herd. In order for change to happen the reality must change in some manner.


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

This is a good read if you want to understand compensatory vs. additive.

http://www.createstrat.com/muledeerinth ... ators.html

The linkage between prey populations, predators, and carrying capacity needs to be understood. The question then is are deer herds in Utah at carrying capacity? Some may be, others not.


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## Cooky (Apr 25, 2011)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



The Naturalist said:


> The question then is are deer herds in Utah at carrying capacity? Some may be, others not.


And that changes, literally, with the weather. 
By time the field work is done, the numbers calculated, the data analyzed, a plan developed and a plan adopted the carrying capacity has changed eleven times (maybe twelve). 
We need to decide if humans are going to be top predator or not and proceed.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



Cooky said:


> The Naturalist said:
> 
> 
> > The question then is are deer herds in Utah at carrying capacity? Some may be, others not.
> ...


Which was my earlier point answering the question of whether reducing the cougar population would automatically increase the deer herd. Again, the answer is unclear. As The Naturalist and Cooky mentioned, carrying capacity is not only different from area to area, but is also going to vary from year to year within an area. Nothing is static. So while cougar predation may possibly be additive one year, it may well be compensatory the next year within the same area. I do think that over the long term, when yearly fluctuations are averaged in, cougar predation tends to be compensatory.

Not so much with coyotes however, referring back to the opening post. Coyotes are an extremely versatile animal with wide variety of diet choices. While cougar tend to be specialists focusing in on big game animals, coyotes can eat about anything. Thus, when say the deer herd crashes in a certain area because of a bad winter or whatever, the lion population is almost certainly destined to decline as well. Not so much with a coyote, they can easily switch their diet to grasshoppers and berries in the absence of deer and still thrive where a lion can't.

The danger of the classic "predator pit" is many times more likely with coyotes than it is for cougar because of the versatility of the smaller beasts.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Kev- Another well thought out intelligent post. Thanks.

This is the kinda stuff we need here (on this forum) ,
And hard management numbers/and 3 year trends, on all species....
That's were my effort will be, now, and here forward.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Umm Goofy is always telling us how cougar eat plenty of elk. I read a study out of Canada on how much meat a cougar needs to survive. Those cats lived almost exclusively on Moose. I heard that cougar will kill wild mustang. Porcupine turkey and grouse rabbits. Cougar eat all these species.

It doesn't matter how few cougar you houndsman say there are. 1 cougar is too many to a herd of 100 deer. So if there are 300,000 deer in Utah 2000 is to many if you want to let your kids hunt deer.

Lastly, High or capacity predator populations effects deer body weight and reduces fawn survival just by being present. A scared or nervous deer doesn't put on and maintain much body fat. A nervous doe stashes her fawn more often leaving it on its own more. It's pretty much agreed upon by all that shed hunting is bad for wintering deer. Why?

You can try and over complicate and spin it how ever you want. If a cougars kill is compensatory then so is hunters harvest. It's like scraps at the table. And predators have a permanent seat at the table but hunters only get to show up late obey all kinds of regulation then have to leave early.

We manage hunters with a lazer and a microscope but manage predators with a machete and blindfolded. We have no grip on the predator population what so ever. And its no mistake and the effect are clearly know by the powers that be.

You guys have been trying to fit a round peg into a square hole for 30+ yrs now and the deer herd has universally decrease. So lets continue on the path of saying predators are no effect and we need to cut tags to help the heard. After all we have *0* success stories with this management mentality. Habitat and weather right? o-||


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Gotta say IB, that a good-well thought out post too :-o

Here's were I differ in opinion though...

2000 lions state wide? maybe 5 plus years ago, Not now. 
Minus 1,500 more likely.....

And as you pointed out, cougars eat a lot of other animals besides deer....

Heck, I found cats that were living almost exclusively on turkeys..
I've also seen on units like Manti were some cats live on elk...

IB, the numbers you use on how many deer are taken by lions annually
are just simply not correct.......


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Cougars do kill elk and turkeys yes... But most lions food sources are deer. And why not save those elk and turkeys while where at it. Deer are the main concern but saving other game in the process won't hurt. It's sorta like the predator bird thing I don't understand. We shoot pheasants quail chukars sucks geese and all birds that are prey but are restricted from shooting any of the birds that prey on them and expect everything to be fine. Well predator populations of all kinds are too high And the problem needs to be addressed.


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## deerelk105 (Mar 6, 2013)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

The Utah DWR has the mountain lion population numbers at 2,000 cats state wide, check the the set quota for the last addendum, now we the people of utah have a deer population at around 250,000. Now a lion needs one deer a week to live, right? considering it cant get its greedy paws into a calf elk or some ranchers sheep, now if we have 2,000 cats state wide and we use simple math to times the number of weeks in a year, we come up with 104,000 deer!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what the @#$% is the problem with killing more lions? lions kill even more deer per week when they have kittens to feed and train! just increase the numbers to around 149,000 and you have hit the nail on the head with whats causing the rapid extinction of Utah's mule deer. Ya know I spend allot of time in the back country of southern Utah and watched the deer in every area disappear, oh I still see some field deer once in a while but nothing in the back country just a few tracks now and then, fallowed by huge lion tracks, and I wonder how long will it take before the small revenue generated by lion hunting becomes an issue with the loose of $6,760,000 in tag revenue each year? can 2000 lions justify 149,000 deer each year?


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

There is a reason the DWR hires biologists and not mathematicians to oversee our deer herds.........numbers that work on paper don't translate to what goes on in the real world. It helps to understand the difference between compensatory and additive predation. Also, managing wildlife it isn't always about money.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Cougars have a loud group (hounds men) fighting to keep there numbers high. The coyotes don't.

There isn't a coyote lobby.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Well Kevin D those are what your great biologists numbers say. An estimated 2000 cougars 250000 deer and according to the one deer a week estimate by those very knowlegable biologists adds up to around100000 deer dead a year by cats. So defend the biologist whose numbers aren't making sense. One predator can't be killing half of the population per year and yet the estimates on deer numbers barely change.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

1-I, Your up in the night dude....

THERE's NOT 100,000 DEER BEING KILLED BY LIONS EVERY YEAR IN UTAH!!

There's not even 50K deer a year going to lions right now!!!!!!!NO FREAK'in WAY.
Cat numbers are in the tollet...Once again-there probably was 2000+ cats in Utah,
AT ONE TIME, 5 -15 years ago , NOT NOW!........


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## deerelk105 (Mar 6, 2013)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

well you tell me with all the money spent on training the paid by the taxpayer biologists, what brilliant idea they have on whats going on with our mule deer? Is there plan working? has it ever worked? maybe its CWD, or the elk are killing them, well when your state paid biologists figure this out let me know!


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Goofy, How in the world do you think you know how many cougar there are in Utah? I know you get around but you have no better idea on how many cougar are in Utah then anyone else. You read the 2000 figure know it was calculated almost 10 yrs ago and figure there must be less cougar today. So you grab a number out of thin air 500 and surmise the cougar population is around 1500.

So fine 1500 cougar kill 75,000 deer per yr in Utah. I'm willing to bet more than half of those are bucks. And even if the deer herd is at capacity and all the deer over 300,000 die off. Why should we feed 40,000 buck per yr to cats? I'm fine with a cougar population of 1000 and affording 20,000 more buck to be harvested by humans. Leaving more room on the range for doe and fawn.

We manage cougar per acre and we should manage cougar per deer. When its not really acreage that determines the cougar population its number of deer that do.

You cant increase your bank account when your'e withdrawing as much or more than your'e depositing.

It's just a real inefficient way to provide a hunt for 100,000 deer hunters. Capacity predators that is.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Honestly IB,The most lions in the state, right now , per acre, are on the Wasatch front.

There's more cats from American Fork to I-84 than anywhere else in the state....
Take those cats out of the picture, And I'd wager there's only around a 1000
left state wide............

There are some units with so few cats I don't think they should even be open..

As for me, I quite kill'in cat for clients a couple years ago....Done with that....

Deerelk 105, HABITAT, HABITAT, HABITAT, is by far the biggest factor in Utah's
declining deer herds...Secondly, fawn survival, that I link to coyotes, more than lions.


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Ok, take the wasatch lions out of the picture. Outside of the wasatch then your estimated 1000 cats are killing ~50k deer yearly. Naturally, the cats inside the wasatch kill theirs as well. If there are only 250 cats on the wasatch then that would lead to a total of 64.5k deer killed annually or 26% of the population. That seems pretty steep to stomach with all the other difficulties facing deer in Utah. I will agree that habitat is a huge issue, alongside it I think roadkill has a big effect too. But any one factor taking out 26% of the total population(admittedly I think you believe there are more than 250 cats on the wasatch, so this would be a conservative estimate) is one to address head on. Furthermore, anyone know the % of the utah deer herd that is also located in this corridor?


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## houndhunter (Oct 2, 2010)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Why is it that everybody thinks that one lion equals one dead deer per week? Lion kill what they have to too survive don't get me wrong, but it's not one deer per week! It's alot more than just deer they live on, so not all the blame is on them. Mule deer are struggling everywhere not just here. I looked at a study recently that said the fawn survival rate is around 20% for Utah. Fawn depredation is usually from coyotes. Now I know this has been brought up here before, but IT CONNOT BE IGNORED! Lion populations have been brought down drastically since the mid 90's, and the deer are still dying out. Now I love my hounds and love hunting deer, in fact I did my part and have only harvested one deer in six years. I'm with Goofy on this one, the lions are far and few between here.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

There are plenty of studies backing up the 1 deer per week theory. No its not like a cougar waits till Monday to make a kill. And yes it will kill what ever it thinks it can. They are opportunist. That also means it will kill 3 deer in a night if it can. Go ask any sheep herder if a cougar will budget sheep kills. Nope! If left to it a cougar will kill a whole bunch of sheep in a night until it exhausted.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

goofy, I talked to a biologist (ya one of those great paid guys that are supposed to be fixing things and yet things just keep getting worse.... but we know more now than ever before right?) about 5 years ago, there were 20 collared cougars that roamed the Monroe unit, with countless uncollared. With that many on a tiny unit like Monroe you can't tell me there aren't nearly 2,000 cougars within the entire state of Utah. No they don't all kill a deer a week, but they don't have to to make a difference. Your up in the night if you don't think there part of the reason mule deer are struggling in the state. Not everything is like your up north city where all of you live right on the **** bench and build houses in the mountains where they shouldn't be. Habitat is available in many places the problems that have hit Utah and Salt Lake counties haven't hit most of the rest of the state. There is a deeper problem. And it's got to be predators, over-hunting, poaching, disease, or a combination of those, because unlike those of you who defend the DNR and there very intelligent bioligists, I don't need a peace of paper that says I have a Bachelors degree in Natural Resources from sitting in a classroom for 4 years to tell me they don't know what to do to fix the problem and nothing they've tried has worked.


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## houndhunter (Oct 2, 2010)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

A theory is just that! Are we talkin about a slow dumb muttin or a deer IB? I can tell you without a doubt, I see more coyote kills on deer then lion kills. So you forgot to include what I said about WHAT WE CANT IGNORE! Why is it that the lion are getting flat out wiped out and the deer are still less and less every year? You can't! Before long there will be no lion or deer hunting left!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Less lions means less deer are getting killed by them period. The great biologist who are supposed to know so much haven't figured out what to do.... It's just excuse after excuse. When the deer population starts growing then those of you defending them have ground to stand on but as of now the deer population is declining and what's being done isn't working so the only point that can be made is the biologist don't know what to do so let's get rid of what we know for sure are killing the deer population.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



#1DEER 1-I said:


> Less lions means less deer are getting killed by them period. The great biologist who are supposed to know so much haven't figured out what to do.... It's just excuse after excuse. When the deer population starts growing then those of you defending them have ground to stand on but as of now the deer population is declining and what's being done isn't working so the only point that can be made is the biologist don't know what to do so let's get rid of what we know for sure are killing the deer population.


Hunters?


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

I mentioned over tagging in another post.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

I believe the main reason the mule deer pop is declining over the west is habitat. Not predators. If cougars killed that many deer the herd would of been gone along time ago. If you killed all the cougars and all the coyotes and all the bears and bobcats(yes they have been known to kill fawns) And stopped all hunting of mule deer, the population would still decrease. There is just not the vegatation the deer need. Until we figure out how to change this the population is going no where. But that is just my opinion.


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## deerelk105 (Mar 6, 2013)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

So if Goofy elk is saying "no way, 100,000 deer a year" OK GOOFY! look at the addendum published by the state! and what else do you think a mountain lion eats? tell me so I know what is not a lions main food source, we had deer in the 90's and we had more cats, now we have no deer that's what happens, you have mice get a cat or two and soon the mice start to go away! its to late the cats ate the deer! and as far as your Wasatch front, keep your 1000 lions up there! have ours to, oh and your wolves, put a sub division on top of your surrounded mountains and you can all live together like one big happy family, you have a major habitat problem and we have a lion,coyote problem! so if those cats that you think don't exist don't eat at least one deer a week what are they eating? OK 
goofy, your right I dont see lion tracks like I did, the poor cats are starving to death! thank god maybe we can stop the wolves from moving into southern Utah, we wont have nothing to feed them! I feel sorry for the next generation, resources handled by men in government not by fact but by special interests like GOOFY!


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

There are over 800,000 head of cattle in Utah and almost a half million sheep.

How many acres to you think it takes to sustain a deer? I know its fewer than a cow and somewhere closer to a sheep. I'd say mule deer can eke out a living in over 90% of the acreage in Utah. With like 55 million acres in Utah I'm certain we could sustain more than 300,000 deer.

And some how 1080 poisoning is banned from public use in 1972 and the mule deer jack rabbit and porcupine habitat started to take a turn for the worst universally across the west?


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

IB its not just having land, hell theres millions of acres of land out on the salt flats. Its having the right vegatation that sustains deer. The sage we have now is old and doesn't produce the nutrients deer need. Just look at were there has been fires. Thats where the deer are thriving. 
This is also why they say we are at carrying capacity. Because the food is not there for the deer.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

1-I, I was there on Monroe 5 years ago, I'm the one that 'let the cat out of the bag'
Telling the world there were 20 collard cats on Monroe.......

Near as we could figure ,at that time, there were only 5 cats that were NOT collared..

It sure in the heck wasn't "countless uncollared cats" .,,,That's another BS line......

Monroe has been used for these lion studies, that's why it has had unusual lion populations.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



mikevanwilder said:


> I believe the main reason the mule deer pop is declining over the west is habitat. Not predators. If cougars killed that many deer the herd would of been gone along time ago. If you killed all the cougars and all the coyotes and all the bears and bobcats(yes they have been known to kill fawns) And stopped all hunting of mule deer, the population would still decrease. There is just not the vegatation the deer need. Until we figure out how to change this the population is going no where. But that is just my opinion.


YES! , Best post on this thread....


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



goofy elk said:


> 1-I, I was there on Monroe 5 years ago, I'm the one that 'let the cat out of the bag'
> Telling the world there were 20 collard cats on Monroe.......
> 
> Near as we could figure ,at that time, there were only 5 cats that were NOT collared..
> ...


Really because I saw 3 that same year I learned of this study when "all the cats were supposed to be collared on Monroe" and they were all on the Cove side, your telling me there were only 2 more uncollared cats on the entire unit? There were plenty more than 5. You don't know either you can't say there weren't more than 5 any more than I can say there were countless uncollared cats. Don't BS me goofy your a city armchair sort who thinks that where doing things fine and shrugs your shoulders thinking that the sky is falling and there's no way to fix it, because those very educated biologists who spend thousands of dollars of state money to fail at what their supposed to be doing... growing or at least stabilizing the states mule deer herd. Not many people could fail so long at their objective and keep being praised by people who think because they read something or hear it from someone with a peace of paper that says their smart isn't going to tell me they know so much more than the basic individual like me who is out every single day watching a lot of our hunting and wildlife go to ****, because where to worried about interrupting what naturally happens with a cougars killing tons of deer all over the state every year. Well guess what the houses that fill your benches to the breach and in places where they shouldn't be are interrupting how nature naturally happens.... pressuring the deer with that fact and the fact that there are tons of other odds against them is obviously never going to pan out. So it's fine I guess to see all that money going into "studies" when we know what many of the problems are. Just fix them stop "studying" things out and wasting the money and fix the problem.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

1-I What exactly do you want? You want the DWR to get in helicopters and go out and kill every last cougar in the state? 
Heres alittle information for you. These biologist are doing their jobs they are collecting the data they are getting the numbers their doing there studies and they are reporting there findings. Heres the problem they recommend what they think is best to the Wildlife Board. That is who makes the decisions on how we are handling our herds and they are very easely presuaded. Just look at option 2! Not one piece of evidence was given as to how it would help the herd and infact alot of evidence was given as to how it would hurt the population. But because money talks it got pasted.( sorry goofy I know you were for it)  
So before you crown yourself the expert in everything that is deer management. You might want to stop bashing on the ones who know a **** ton more than you. Cuz I can guarentee they spend way more time in the field than you do.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



mikevanwilder said:


> I believe the main reason the mule deer pop is declining over the west is habitat. Not predators. If cougars killed that many deer the herd would of been gone along time ago. If you killed all the cougars and all the coyotes and all the bears and bobcats(yes they have been known to kill fawns) And stopped all hunting of mule deer, the population would still decrease. There is just not the vegatation the deer need. Until we figure out how to change this the population is going no where. But that is just my opinion.


1-I, this is the reasoning I would have used to answer your post to me. Yup, there are other factors at play that you might not be aware of. Thanks Mike.

Let me explain again and I'll try to keep it as simple as possible. *A DEER SAVED DOES NOT MEAN A DEER EARNED.* Even if you accept those numbers that 2,000 lions kill 104,000 a year or whatever, that doesn't mean you're going to be adding 104,000 deer to the population a year if all the lions were wiped out. Hell no, death from other causes like malnutrition is going to increase as more deer compete for the increasingly scarce resources they need to survive. Furthermore, the more deer we try to crowd onto the limited winter range the more we diminish the the carrying capacity of that range in the years to come because of the nature of mule deer diet.....which consists primarily of perrenial plants that can be damaged from over browsing and not annual plants that can bounce back every year. There is a law of diminishing returns on the carrying capacity of the land.

This is why I said we need biologists and not mathematicians or accountants overseeing our deer herds, because they understand the other intricacies and balance of environmental factors that too impact our deer herd. Oft times, it seems the problem is more complex than the simplest among us can comprehend.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



#1DEER 1-I said:


> [quote="goofy elk":yz7nr3hu]1-I, I was there on Monroe 5 years ago, I'm the one that 'let the cat out of the bag'
> .


 Don't BS me goofy your a city armchair sort who thinks that where doing things fine and shrugs your shoulders thinking that the sky is falling and there's no way to fix it, .[/quote:yz7nr3hu]

That's a good one, 22 miles from my house to the closest post office.....

19 miles to find the first gas station....guided hunts for a living , 20 years....

City boy A,,,,,I think the city boy is 1-I


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

"A herd that exceeds the ability of the habitat to support it will be in poor body condition, and have poor birth rates and high death rates. If the population continues to remain above carrying capacity, it will damage its food resources, so that even when the herd does recover, carrying capacity may be reduced and the herd may be unable to return to previous population numbers.

Predation and carrying capacity of the habitat are linked. When a deer herd is at carrying capacity, the number of deaths equals the number of offspring that survive to age one. In this herd, it is not important if predators cause some mortality, because if the predators are removed, another factor will cause a similar amount of mortality. In other words, mortality is compensatory."... "If predators contribute to significant mortality in a mule deer population, and that population is near carrying capacity, removing predators may not cause the population to increase because other types of mortality may kick in and compensate for predation. On the other hand, if predation is causing a mule deer population to exist below the ability of the habitat to support them, reducing predators may allow the mule deer herd to increase until compensatory factors kick in."

The Mule deer herd as a whole isn't at the carrying capacity. Some units are because they don't have winter range. The deer are not dieing of starvation, disease etc....

Yes we need to improve habitat but reducing predators will also help increase the herd. It would be great if we could increase carrying capacity and the deer herd at the same time. If you get to carrying capacity you can increase hunting permits and reduce the population.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

I think somehow when you mentioned cats on the Wasatch they figured it was you back yard? :? I know your no city slicker Goofy. To me your experience and lifestyle lends itself to a greater insight then my own in the world of wildlife management. IMO few people have a real pulse on Utah's wildlife like you do. You get more education and experience afield then 99% then the rest of us. I know you now how it works. And lastly I think you understand this too. We agree on far far more then we disagree on. I really appreciate you input. 8)

Having said all that. You have an agenda and are going to try to persuade public opinion in your favor.

Same goes for Kevin.


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

And some how 1080 poisoning is banned from public use in 1972 and the mule deer jack rabbit and porcupine habitat started to take a turn for the worse universally across the west??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

More Elk Moose Sheep Goat Turkey. When sheep aren't increasing like the DWR likes is it habitat they blame? Or do they get real about it and decrease whats killing them.

I'll give it a rest for a while. :lol:


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## deerelk105 (Mar 6, 2013)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



mikevanwilder said:


> IB its not just having land, hell theres millions of acres of land out on the salt flats. Its having the right vegatation that sustains deer. The sage we have now is old and doesn't produce the nutrients deer need. Just look at were there has been fires. Thats where the deer are thriving.
> This is also why they say we are at carrying capacity. Because the food is not there for the deer.


 the deer in southern Utah are not starving to death, this is not about lack of food! but your right, if we have vary few deer vary few will starve if they ever run out, maybe we should start deer welfare today so if we ever have to many deer we can just GIVE THEM AN EBT CARD! STOP OVER THINKING! Oh and by the way nothing is starving on public land unless its overgrazed by sheep and cattle unless you can find some pictures of dead deer and elk laying everywhere you have no proof that any of our southern and most of the southern half of central Utah has lost any deer or elk due to starvation. So to you and Goofy elk remember what happened to the buffalo? you just have a better weapon to wipe the deer out this time, its your total evasion of the truth, your special interest propaganda, and your love for those worthless lions! who do you work for? special interest? DNR? or are you guys on the biologist team?


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## redleg (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Utah is a better place because of deer and elk. The same can't be said of cougars. It may be an interesting novelty to see one but that doesn't make having a large number of them necessary.


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## mikevanwilder (Nov 11, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



deerelk105 said:


> mikevanwilder said:
> 
> 
> > IB its not just having land, hell theres millions of acres of land out on the salt flats. Its having the right vegatation that sustains deer. The sage we have now is old and doesn't produce the nutrients deer need. Just look at were there has been fires. Thats where the deer are thriving.
> ...


I never said deer were starving did I? 
You can eat junk food and not starve, same with deer. But it doesn't mean they are healthy. 
What I don't get is you guys are so angry because these predators are killing your deer before you. Cougars and deer exsited together forever, but because you want to hunt trophy animals without anywork then they must be bad. 
I hunt all animals, big game and predators and have success doing both. I'm sure I have taken more predators than you have. So what are you doing to help?
And talking about special interest groups you sound like your right out of the SFW handbook. They don't don't listen to the biologists either!


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



mikevanwilder said:


> .....You can eat junk food and not starve, same with deer. But it doesn't mean they are healthy......


Exactly Mike!
A deer, elk, moose, etc. that is weakened due to malnourishment becomes an easier target for the prey animal, so you won't necessarily see a deer that died of starvation because they have already been consumed.
Let me give a quick example: while hiking in Bear Lake country a couple of years ago I came across the carcass of a cow moose. The remains had clearly been set upon by scavengers of various sorts. Upon close examination of the skull/teeth I could see what either caused the death or led to it. It was an older cow that had ground its molars down so far that many of the roots were exposed. This cow probably hadn't eaten very well for months, and was probably in considerable pain. This obviously weakened her to a point where she either died of starvation or became an easy target for whatever finally brought her down.
Bottom line is....there are many factors that can lead to malnourishment besides the vegetation.....and the carcass will be immediately set upon by predators/scavengers masking death by starvation.


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## Longfeather (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

That moose died of old age (teeth worn down). The moose couldn't eat, there was food around but she wasn't efficient in processing it. It was her teeth not the lack of food that caused her to starve.

The deer herds in Utah are not experiencing the mass starvation that would show the herd is at or exceeding the capacity of the range.

We should always be managing and improving the range, we should also manage the predators as well.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Here's the thing these Deer/elk hunt'in, anti-preditor guys just dont get,

During the last quarter century, THE MOST AGRESSIVE LION HUNTING HAS/IS
TAKING PLACE right NOW!!!!! AND DURING THE LAST 5 YEARS!!!!!!!

In the last 5 years, 1/3 of the state has been open to YEAR round, Harvest objective.

The rest of the state, with exception of a few LE units, has been split season, LE/HO units.
In-fact, Almost 3/4 of the state of Utah is OPEN TO OVER THE COUNTER, HO lion hunts right now!

So how bout some of you anti-preditor boys just go buy an HO permit and kill all these cats you guys think are out there :!: ,,,,,,,AND,

Register for the coyotes too-----Their $50 bucks a pop.........
Lets see how many you guys can pile in a truck


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Well goofy, I did. And took me a whoppin' 20 mins to find a track! Shot a great tom on the Henry's at the end of last year. (Ok, I admit, that it was truly thanks to Brett Guymon of Hightop Outfitters--but it still stands that we found 2 sets of tracks without looking for them....and then the next day got on a set right at dawn, then jumped a second tom while chasing the first!) Then again, I also admit that very well could have been a fluke. 
But to actually aid in the pro-predator argument....this was on the Henry Mountains, and I doubt anyone can complain that the deer are suffering there.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

What you did Johonny was be on the Henry's at the right time, 
OR should I say the RIGHT YEAR! And with the right guy.....

As I pointed out in the other thread, Only a small handfull of lions harvested
off the henery's in the Past several years....The stockpile got cleand out 2012/13....


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## Iron Bear (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

I'm no more anti predator then you are anti hunter Goofy. :lol:

You guys are better at looking up these trends than me. Goofy is an expert at it. So correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't they go in once and all but wipe out the cats on the Henry's And then the deer herd doubled in like one or two yrs there?

I will attempt to name units that I believe have had lots of cats taken off of.

Morgan, and isn't it at or over objective? Whats the B/D ratio there? 
Pine Valley, at or over objective? any increases in deer population in the last 10 yrs? Why?
Panguitch, at or over objective? " " " " 
Zion, And I believe its at or over objective.

All these units get hunted hard and still have better than average B/D ratio's.

Monroe/ Stansbury had similar cougar studies for a long period of time. Goofy even admits that those units where chalk full of cats during that period. Both of those units are in dismal shape with the 2 lowest B/D ratios in the state. Coincidence?

The worst LE deer unit in the state also had the fewest cats taken from it in the last 20 yrs compared to the other LE units. Coincidence?

Whats going on with Elk Ridge? Cats or habitat? Heavy winters? No cats down there Goofy? I have relatives that would say otherwise. :O•-:

It's OK Goofy even though your cougar took our deer hunt away the whole system and powers that be are working to preserve your cougar. Sad thing is someday we'll be just like Calif and both of us will be sh!t out of luck.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Here the thing bear, I haven't guided any lion hunts for a couple years now,
And seriuosly , thinking I may never do it again...

So I have no real intrest any more trying to save lions, Heck kill'm all. IDC.

What I do care about is all the mis conceptions, and the repeated myths about 
lions that are untrue....Because those get us NO WERE with deer managment :!:

And YES, 
I cleaned out the Henry cats when the deer hunting was closed down there


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## johnnycake (Jul 19, 2011)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

Goofy, I agree that I just hit is perfectly right, hence the last line of my previous post. As for me personally, I will likely never kill a cat again--one's enough for me. Chase them? You frickin' bet! That was a rush! I do think that there is a happy balance SOMEWHERE between predator and prey levels, as to where that is who knows. As far as 1I's original question, the easiest way to defend cougars v. coyotes is reproduction rates. A cat has a litter of kittens every few years, whereas a coyote has a litter of pups every year. And forgive me if I am wrong but litter size of coyotes tend to be larger than that of cats? All of this leads to a higher population of coyotes=higher kill rate sustainability. Do I think cougars eat more deer than coyotes? No. But they both do their parts just as we hunters add to the mix. Personally, if someone had a great coyote recipe (wink wink Goob!) then I would probably be a bit more aggressive about hunting them.


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## Kevin D (Sep 15, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



goofy elk said:


> What I do care about is all the mis conceptions, and the repeated myths about
> lions that are untrue....Because those get us NO WERE with deer managment :!:


I'm with you on this one goofy. I too am most likely in the twilight of my hound career. I started tagging along with a buddy's houndsman dad back in 1975 and have been running my own pack continuously since 1983. I have seen firsthand the good, the bad, and the ugly in the deer/cougar population management and the predator/prey population cycles.

Let me share with you some of my perspective: When the Cache deer herd crashed following the winter of 1992-93, they quadrupled the number of lion tags issued and waited for the deer to recover. When that didn't happen, the thought was that perhaps we didn't kill enough lions, so they took the cap off the number cougar permits issued until soon the local lion population was literally nonexistent. Seriously, when you take 20-25 lions a year with no female subquota out of an estimated population of 70 animals it doesn't take long before they are all gone. The Cache area is also unique in that it relatively accessible, and snow conditions for tracking is probably the best in the state. Trust me, lion hunting the Cache is easy compared to most other areas in the state.

Well, as expected, harvest numbers soon dropped to near zero for the unit as we ran out of lions to kill. Everyone waited for the bounce in the deer population numbers, but again, sadly, it didn't happen.

I remember standing in one spot a few years back when our lion population was at it's lowest point and counting nearly one hundred deer carcasses from the previous winter piled up around me. There were so many dead deer that the scavengers couldn't even keep up with them all. I don't know how anyone could still argue, standing among the carnage, that cougars were to blame for suppressing our deer herd......yet I continue to hear it.

So yes, I do have an agenda for arguing against the wholesale slaughter of lions by those thinking that's all it is going to take to restore our deer herds, I am against any management strategy that has proved ineffective in achieving it's stated objective. The truth is, that everywhere it's been tried, it just hasn't worked.


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



Kevin D said:


> I'm with you on this one goofy. I too am most likely in the twilight of my hound career. I started tagging along with a buddy's houndsman dad back in 1975 and have been running my own pack continuously since 1983. I have seen firsthand the good, the bad, and the ugly in the deer/cougar population management and the predator/prey population cycles.
> 
> Let me share with you some of my perspective: When the Cache deer herd crashed following the winter of 1992-93, they quadrupled the number of lion tags issued and waited for the deer to recover. When that didn't happen, the thought was that perhaps we didn't kill enough lions, so they took the cap off the number cougar permits issued until soon the local lion population was literally nonexistent. Seriously, when you take 20-25 lions a year with no female subquota out of an estimated population of 70 animals it doesn't take long before they are all gone. The Cache area is also unique in that it relatively accessible, and snow conditions for tracking is probably the best in the state. Trust me, lion hunting the Cache is easy compared to most other areas in the state.
> 
> ...


So what has worked? With everything that gets passed and all the things that the DWR has worked on what have they ever done to increase the deer herd in the state. Reducing cougars doesn't work, antler restrictions won't work, less tags won't work,......... what do you think will work because so far the states deer herd just keeps going down. Habitat is not the issue in some areas. If it's the quality of the habitat, then there's only one real weed in all the areas that still have enough habitat but the quality is going down and that's cheat grass. When is the BLM, Forest Service, DNR, and agricultural as well as sportsmans and hunting groups going to work together to get rid of the worst weed that's plaguing all of out wildlife and public and private lands? Personally I believe that this is the #1 reason the deer herds can't grow. But somewhere down the line you can start to blame cougars and coyotes and more tags for there being less deer. I think if you could figure out and some how get rid of cheat grass and improve existing habitat (which IMO would simply mean replacing cheat grass across the state with a more suitable and valuable brush or grass for the deer and elk) then getting rid of cougars and coyotes would make a difference. I don't believe in many areas deer are at their carrying capacity at this point so predators are the limiting factor. No winter ranges are being devastated by the deer and elk herds we have right now, and some don't even have animals living on them where there is good habitat. If you could fight off cheat grass, getting rid of the predators would do good, but I do feel you might have to address the cheat grass issue before getting rid of cats and coyotes is going to make a huge difference. Then antler restrictions and less tags would begin making sense with ranges being able to handle more deer. I always look at the Monroe unit so I will again. All the deer range on either poverty flats, above Annabella, and above Koosharem. Other than those 3 spots, the deer on all other winter ranges on this unit are used almost not at all, or there aren't any animals residing on the winter range anywhere. Deer are few and far between from Koosharem clear around to Kingston all along the bench and winter range there. There are a few, but very few, and there is no way you can tell me that area is at carrying capacity. It's all been habitat improved in many areas, lots of sage brush, and not much snow on that end. So why is there no deer there when it could obviously hold a lot greater amount than it has. Now take a look at the other side of the unit near dry creek and hel hole canyon above Piute. In the last 3 years I have not even seen a doe or a track after a fresh snow of a deer, there are a few elk, but little to absolutely no deer. The DWR did habitat improvements, it is a giant flat full of sage brush and cedar trees against the mountain in the rolling hills. It is no different than the benches above Annabella and is in better condition for wintering animals than poverty. So why is there no deer there? Why do you say the carrying capacity has been reached? Couldn't growing the deer herd start to expand it onto these areas of the unit that as of now have little to no deer on them? What's holding that back from happening? I say predators, because there is a lot of winter range being unused by all the wildlife that calls that unit home.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

^^ MONROE!!!!!,,,,,1-I,,,IB,,,, U reading this, Monroe is were the studys have been done!^^^^

Killing EVERY LION on the unit will not improve the deer herd, 
HABITAT,HABITAT,HABITAT!,, And fawn survial surpass every other issue by a mile!


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*

The habitat is defiently there on the Monroe goofy you can't argue that. The deer however are not in many areas where there is very valuable habitat.


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## goofy elk (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



#1DEER 1-I said:


> The habitat is defiently there on the Monroe goofy you can't argue that. The deer however are not in many areas where there is very valuable habitat.


Unfortunatly, I can argue that, for deer habitat anyway.
Before the recent collar study, The Monroe lion population was taken down
to record lows, The deer herd DID NOT respond, and DID NOT increase...........

Habitat for elk now , Thats different, VERY GOOD!


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## The Naturalist (Oct 13, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



#1DEER 1-I said:


> ......... what do you think will work because so far the states deer herd just keeps going down. Habitat is not the issue in some areas. If it's the quality of the habitat, then there's only one real weed in all the areas that still have enough habitat but the quality is going down and that's cheat grass. When is the BLM, Forest Service, DNR, and agricultural as well as sportsmans and hunting groups going to work together to get rid of the worst weed that's plaguing all of out wildlife and public and private lands?.... Personally I believe that this is the #1 reason the deer herds can't grow. But somewhere It's all been habitat improved in many areas, lots of sage brush, .....The DWR did habitat improvements, it is a giant flat full of sage brush and cedar trees against the mountain in the rolling hills. .....


I'll agree Cheat grass is a large problem, but a problem that will never go away. I've worked as a Range Technician with the US Forest Service where we did studies on habitat improvement, more specifically improved grazing for livestock, but also for wildlife.
Sagebrush and Juniper make good cover for deer, but there is little nutritional value in them, therefore it makes a lousy winter range. That is probably why you're not seeing many deer in those areas. Unfortunately, overgrazing of native grasses by livestock has led to the encroachment of cheat grass, sagebrush, and juniper on what would be good winter ranges. Our ancestors didn't mean to do that they were just trying to eke out a living. Range restoration should include native grasses, forbs of various kind, browse such as bitterbrush, mountain mahogany, chokecherry, hawthorn, willow, etc., but that is very expensive and our Governor thinks he is going to take over the management of these lands??? _(O)_


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## #1DEER 1-I (Sep 10, 2007)

*Re: Cougars vs Coyotes: How do you defend one and not the ot*



goofy elk said:


> [quote="#1DEER 1-I":h2catshj]The habitat is defiently there on the Monroe goofy you can't argue that. The deer however are not in many areas where there is very valuable habitat.


Unfortunatly, I can argue that, for deer habitat anyway.
Before the recent collar study, The Monroe lion population was taken down
to record lows, The deer herd DID NOT respond, and DID NOT increase...........

Habitat for elk now , Thats different, VERY GOOD![/quote:h2catshj]

Wrong, the DWR's numbers say over the last few years deer numbers are growing on the Monroe unit. I think it got down to like 4500 and is back to 6200 by there estimates. Those numbers aren't exact but its went up on the report.


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